# How much protein is really necessary?



## Guest (Nov 12, 2009)

This is a vital question for BBs, but there seem to be huge discrepancies between recommendations from different sources.

On my container of Nutrisport 90+ whey protein, it says "0.8-0.9g/kg body weight [daily] for normal individuals, 1.2-1.8g/kg for athletes" protein is recommended.

On this thread

http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/food-diet-nutrition-info/9357-bodybuilding-nutrition-begginers-made-easy.html

the author recommends (in strange metric/imperial units) at least 2g/pound of bodyweight, which is 4.4g/kg.

On this thread

http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/food-diet-nutrition-info/5071-formulating-your-diet-beginers.html

the author recommends 1.5-2g/lb of lean mass, which is something like the recommendation above allowing a bit for body fat.

My girlfriend, who is a doctor and has studied sports nutrition, and generally an extremely sensible and well-informed person, says even the basic recommendation of 0.8g/Kg for non-athletes on the Nutrisport bottle is a "gross over-estimate" and that research says that people get by perfectly OK on about half that, that about 0.6 is the standard recommendation including a slight excess, and that having more can stress the kidneys, which have to to convert the excess protein.

Looking at some of the diets people post up on here, it seems that many are going far beyond even the high 4.4g/kg recommendation, and people are often saying this is essential to gaining muscle.

So we have various opinions which range over a factor of *at least 7* for the amount of protein required to build - quite bewildering.

How do we really know? :confused1:


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## GHS (Oct 6, 2008)

Its been debated many many time as you have outlined by posting example threads.

There are so many opinions on this that you will never get a 100% correct answer.

Its mostly person and situation dependant.


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## GunnaGetBig (Dec 14, 2008)

One thing I would add is that the recommendations for athletes are for.....athletes. NOT bodybuilders who as you know are constantly breaking down muscle tissue and require more protein than most.

That said I wouldn't be able to say how much is enough. As GHS has said, this is dependant on person and training methods etc


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## dixie normus (May 11, 2008)

You also have to consider if the person in question is using anything that is known to increase protein synthesis.


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## Wee G1436114539 (Oct 6, 2007)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1844991?itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum&ordinalpos=16

As above for clean athletes, somewhat more when seeking to add LBM, more again if using AAS, typically about 1/3 of total kcal intake.

As an aside i've yet to see any docs successfully add large amount of LBM 

Cheers,

G


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## chickentuna (Apr 13, 2009)

i do recall reading a book wriiten by mike metzer who also made claims that bodybuilders needed a fraction of the protein most bodybuilders consumed however if he followed this i do not know :confused1:


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## nitrogen (Oct 25, 2007)

Depends on how much your body can utilize, and how much your organs can handle. `Protein breaks down into the waste materials that the kidneys must remove, so excessive protein puts an extra burden on the kidneys.`


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## rs007 (May 28, 2007)

Davesky said:


> How do we really know? :confused1:


Well, you keep upping it until you start growing muscle (assuming training and rest and carb intake is nailed).

If you are a 7stone noob, you will grow on fk all.

But once you get above average musculature, you'll need way more.

No disrespect to your missus, but unless she has added a lot of muscle to her frame, then I don't really put much faith in her text-book figures.

SImple fact is, it isnt about "getting by", it is about building vast amounts of tissue, that your body was never designed to carry.

I wish people would stop bleating on about kidney stress. Yes it may occur. This is BODYBUILDING. To do it right, was never going to be healthy, you are pushing boundaries. Nothing comes without a price, to expect to add all this tissue, and not have any negative repercussions is quite frankly the belief of an imbecile.

My own personal reccomendation for optimum growth is 1.8g per LB of lean mass as a maintenance figure, a little more for growth - or, if you aint obese, just work it out on your actual wieght, and this will give extra above maintenance for growth.

A lot of people agree, and a lot of people disagree.

However.

I bet if you had some way of honestly telling (to take out those who tell porkies or are dumb as fk and can't add it up) what everyone on this board was eating, and split them into those that eat above 1.8g per lb lean, and those that eat below, there will be a hell of a lot of bigger guys in the higher figure group


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## rs007 (May 28, 2007)

Davesky said:


> My girlfriend, who is a doctor and has studied sports nutrition, and generally an extremely sensible and well-informed person, says even the basic recommendation of 0.8g/Kg for non-athletes on the Nutrisport bottle is a "gross over-estimate" and that research says that people get by perfectly OK on about half that, that about 0.6 is the standard recommendation including a slight excess, and that having more can stress the kidneys, which have to to convert the excess protein.


Just to address specifically this bit.

She has studied sports nutrition - fair enough, but where in that course did she do studies in bodybuilding specifically? Its that underground and outlandish an activity that it probably has never been really analysed on this level - so I doubt she done any. Maybe a scant mention perhaps, but considering the wider public don't recognise it as a sport and indeed think the endeavour a bit odd, then I doubt any actual research exists.

Also, I think the health profession is missing a frankly obvious point.

What the fck is muscle made from? Fresh air? Nope, its structure is protein mainly.

Where does it come from?

Food.

So, not only do you need protein to build new muscle, but CRITICALLY, as you build more, you need more just to maintain - since you ahve more TO maintain. It isn't exactly dificult for anyone with a modicum of sense to see why requirments could take off quickly.

Finally, we know from first hand experience that, for example, the medical community don't have a clue about steroids. We talk about it often enough.

So why would we immediately trust anything else they publish as fact?


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## Wee G1436114539 (Oct 6, 2007)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16174292?itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum&ordinalpos=61

Just a wee one on the "high protein damages the kidneys" myth. In a healthy kidney high protein diet will do no damage at all.


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## rs007 (May 28, 2007)

Wee G said:


> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16174292?itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum&ordinalpos=61
> 
> Just a wee one on the "high protein damages the kidneys" myth. In a healthy kidney high protein diet will do no damage at all.


I kinda suspected this would be the case anyway - will read your link later :thumbup1:

I have been doing a lot of reading into kidney function just recently, quite fascinating just how robust they are in a healthy person.

I suppose the risk might be where there is an underlying congential defect, but that is hardly the proteins fault :lol:


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## rs007 (May 28, 2007)

God said:


> Regarding the above comment in bold, I see what you mean however the body is just adapting to what you are using your body for so I don't see why this necessarily means that it's unhealthy. You could argue the same for having a manual labour job over an office job really...
> 
> Perhaps I'm an imbecile lol


Not really applicable - unless for a natural athlete perhaps, but even then, elevated intakes of protein are going to be required...

Its the EXTREMETY that the body was never designed for, and any bodybuilder worth their salt (AAS users especially) are going to be in that bracket. I mean by your logic, you could say alcholism isnt specifically unhealthy - the body certainly adapts to that. Or obesity, where the body adapts for sure. Yet it all causes stress, and is not a natural state for a person to be in.

As will some aspects of BB, sooner or later, if taken far enough.

EDIT - And I would never presume to call God an imbecile :whistling: :lol:


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## mark etherden (May 28, 2009)

I used to smash the protein in my early days but i don't think it's necessary,i think a good consant flow from when you get up till when you go to bed is important,plus the type and quality is important for example i will have isolate in the morning and after training,a good concentrate protein during the day and with my porridge and a slow release protein befor bed,plus i don't have say "tuna" as my primary source of protein as it's lower in BV.Quality rather than quantity is whats importantant.


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## dixie normus (May 11, 2008)

God said:


> Think about cavemen lifting big boulders. Would you necessarily say that that is unhealthy? Just because lifting heavy objects is no longer life or death, doesn't mean your body knows that. Will still react in the same way and adapt.


A caveman didn't lie on his back pick the stone up and do ten reps with his mate spotting him shouting 'it's all your buddy' :lol:


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## Wee G1436114539 (Oct 6, 2007)

Mark,

Nice to see you here. What is your current protein intake per day?


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## hilly (Jan 19, 2008)

well i have been consuming moderate grams of protein over the last 4 months with moderate cals and altho i have got stronger size wise i havnt gained much altho it all has been lean. bodyweight has been around 200lb now 208ish and protein hasnt gone over 250-270 per day bf around 12-14%ish. calipers say lower but i disagree.

However for the next 6-8 weeks this is going to be ramped up. carbs will stay the same 250 every day with 50g extra tranining days but protein will be taken to 350at first aiming for 400 closer to xmas. 280g of this is coming from food the rest shakes,

will see what difference it makes


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## anabolic ant (Jun 5, 2008)

Wee G said:


> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16174292?itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum&ordinalpos=61
> 
> Just a wee one on the "high protein damages the kidneys" myth. In a healthy kidney high protein diet will do no damage at all.


i hate to sound negative,but that is only an abstract and only one paper,and it does not indicate a bodybuilders dietary intake,it is suggesting a high protein intake(developed western world diet)...so i'm assuming that this abstract is making a comparison of normal everyday peoples western diet of consuming increased/excess amounts of protein(although to a bodybuilder this would be no where near enough)...there is no mention or reference to supplementation..this may be due to not seeing the whole paper!!!

also in reference to a healthy/fit everyday individual,many people forget that when doing studies/surveys etc there is a target population...in the abstract it indicates only a healthy fit individual,so this would possibly mean slightly excessive amounts of filtering,but as we know the kidneys filter small molecules,with a small molecular mass(not large complex molecules like proteins or carbohydrates)!!!!

i dont think they are referring to the likes of folk like us who consume massive amounts of protein,AAS's and other supplements would be included in this category...

what would be interesting is if everyone on here who consumes large amounts of protein,with AAS use,were to have blood tests,whether their kidney ranges would be normal values with creatinine etc etc etc

i've read loads of peer reviewed scientific journal papers...and i would say that the hyperfiltration after a period of time would suffer...and large molecules will start to pass through the nephrons or the strain of kidneys putting pressure on them...sorry i mean the sheer amount of protein that is the body is being asked to process may become a pressure on the kidneys,than separating protein from waste becomes increased,and over lengthy periods can result in damage from excess protein intake(proteinuria!)

blimey,i'll have to grab some papers that i saved,but means a helluva lot of sifting through,so wont be able to get back straight away!!!!

but just remember we are all individually different by DNA,have different absorption rates,intake and metabolisms etc

but for now,here is a couple of good sites to look at:

http://kidney.niddk.nih.gov/Kudiseases/pubs/yourkidneys/

http://www.kidney.org.uk/Medical-Info/kidney-disease/proturia.html


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## mark etherden (May 28, 2009)

My protein intake is 270 thats 7meals containing 30grms atime and 60 grms of isolate straight after training.It never really exceeds 300grms.


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## Wee G1436114539 (Oct 6, 2007)

AA,

Good post dude. The bit that I posted that abstract for was this...

"In fact, some studies suggest that hyperfiltration, the purported mechanism for renal damage, is a normal adaptative mechanism that occurs in response to several physiological conditions."

Inference being that hyperfiltration does not = kidney damage.


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## Van (May 22, 2009)

^^^ someones done there research! very intresting Ant

Im no scientist but Protein intake is of high importance (we all know that) to us but what I often see missed from the equation is calorie intake, If calorie intake is not sufficient then your body will simply burn the HQ protein as fuel&#8230;

Im gonna use the analogy ''guys at the gym'' seem to forget about calories and just eat a high protein diet with few carbs an no were near enough cals to grow!


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## TH0R (Aug 15, 2007)

mark etherden said:


> My protein intake is 270 thats 7meals containing 30grms atime and 60 grms of isolate straight after training.It never really exceeds 300grms.


Hi Mark, have you ever prescribed to a very high protein diet?

What is your current diet regarding carbs and fats?

Do you still gain with 270g Protein pd?

:beer:


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## anabolic ant (Jun 5, 2008)

Wee G said:


> AA,
> 
> Good post dude. The bit that I posted that abstract for was this...
> 
> ...


i see what your saying bro...but still the abstract piece is too little to go on...

i would add to that line,that yes the kidneys would have adaptive abilities as with many other internal organs in response to many physiological conditions...but adding the length of time or exposure to volumous or excessive amounts of a host of molecules in xcess would give a different set of results...pretty much all leading to some kind of damage,from it being micro to macro damage!!!!

as i always say we all respond differently,as we are all different by DNA!!!!


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## mark etherden (May 28, 2009)

OK this is pretty much been my diet.at first went down to 150carbs then started putting in days of 180,once the fat was right down 210-240 is a good place for me to stay,i try to get ready early now,i don't mind being almost ready 2 months out,every good bodybuilder i have spoke to that achives great conditition gets ready early and eats up to the show rather than being depleted by the time of the show,the reason why i had to hit it hard on 150carbs aday is due to bulking up to much off season,something that i will not be doing again.My day would be something like this.

6am 50grms porridge oats with whey protein and tablespoon of udos oil

9am 100grm jacket patato with 6 egg whites 1 yolk with green veg

12.00 100grms rice with 150grms chicken breast with green veg

2.00 50grms porridge oats with whey protein and tablespoon of udos oil

Train after training 2 x scoops of whey isolate

5.00 100grms rice with 150grms chicken breast with green veg

7.30 100 grms rice with tuna or salmon with green veg

9.30 100grms rice with 150grms chicken breast with green veg.i would'nt have the carbs here on this last meal at the begining of the diet.

This is around 210carbs i will also have 3000mg vit c aday and multy vits

also up till about 2-3weeks out i will have steak once aweek.


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## mark etherden (May 28, 2009)

Here you can see the protein intake, i think this is plenty ive gone from light heavy to heayweight (10kg increase)on this amount of protein in the last few years.


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## TH0R (Aug 15, 2007)

mark etherden said:


> OK this is pretty much been my diet.at first went down to 150carbs then started putting in days of 180,once the fat was right down 210-240 is a good place for me to stay,i try to get ready early now,i don't mind being almost ready 2 months out,every good bodybuilder i have spoke to that achives great conditition gets ready early and eats up to the show rather than being depleted by the time of the show,the reason why i had to hit it hard on 150carbs aday is due to bulking up to much off season,something that i will not be doing again.My day would be something like this.
> 
> 6am 50grms porridge oats with whey protein and tablespoon of udos oil
> 
> ...





mark etherden said:


> Here you can see the protein intake, i think this is plenty ive gone from light heavy to heayweight (10kg increase)on this amount of protein in the last few years.


Thanks for that Mark:thumbup1: Nice to see a top bber posting his diet, very interesting

:beer:


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## martinmcg (Jun 30, 2007)

Quality rather than quantity is whats importantant.

so true mark , if the quality is good you get to use the protein you eat, if its poor or incomplete a lot of it can be wasted , why eat 400g + and only get to use say 250g of it when you can just eat a high quality 250g and get to assimulate nearly all of it


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## rs007 (May 28, 2007)

Mark - what was your stage wieght last show on that protein intake


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## mark etherden (May 28, 2009)

i did the briton a few weeks ago but lost to much weight in the last week i was about 96kg, will be doing the stars of tomorrow on sunday but will be weighing around 98-99kg much fuller look.


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## rs007 (May 28, 2007)

anabolic ant said:


> what would be interesting is if everyone on here who consumes large amounts of protein,with AAS use,were to have blood tests,whether their kidney ranges would be normal values with creatinine etc etc etc


That would be interesting.

But I dont think it proves anything - you see, in my opinion, its to be expected, its just the way it is.

You would expect your car engine wear more running it at 7500rpm everywhere compared to limiting it to 3500rpm, and I don't see why anyone would expect to build massive amounts of muscle - sorry, I am not talking recreational/gay chat bodybuilder here :lol: - and not see a similar wear effect.

Can prob be minimised, and that should be pursued as far as practical, but to expect nothing at all is a bit silly IMO.


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## rs007 (May 28, 2007)

mark etherden said:


> i did the briton a few weeks ago but lost to much weight in the last week i was about 96kg, will be doing the stars of tomorrow on sunday but will be weighing around 98-99kg much fuller look.


Cheers mark, results noted, you are running a little under the trend I am finding when analysing competitive bb, but it all helps :thumbup1:


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## anabolic ant (Jun 5, 2008)

nitrogen said:


> The theory is right about a healthy kidney, I do not dispute the fact.
> 
> My creatinine levels were well high above normal, during the summer. In October i was diagnosed with a renal tumor, and had a renal nephrectomy done 2 weeks ago.


oh mate...i'm sorry to hear of your your trauma's and ordeal!!!

i really hope your health is ok and your on a road to wellness!!!!

you probably know more than most how delicate and important your kidneys are...

i do as well not only from my studies i did,but half my family have either got renal failure(end stage) or some have died from the infections that go with it,and i've seen their quality of life go downhill very fast!!!!

nitrogen...i wish you the best of health,i hope things get much better for you and you make a return to normal health as soon as!!!!


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## TH0R (Aug 15, 2007)

anabolic ant said:


> oh mate...i'm sorry to hear of your your trauma's and ordeal!!!
> 
> i really hope your health is ok and your on a road to wellness!!!!
> 
> ...


Ditto mate, hope you return to good health very quickly:thumbup1:


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## nitrogen (Oct 25, 2007)

anabolic ant said:


> oh mate...i'm sorry to hear of your your trauma's and ordeal!!!
> 
> i really hope your health is ok and your on a road to wellness!!!!
> 
> ...


Thank you, I am recovering very fast, unfortunatelly banned from training and any strenous physical work by the surgeon for few months. As for me, it`s all about a healthy balanced diet now.


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## Gerry_bhoy (Dec 25, 2008)

I've switched up my diet a bit now. Its more 40% carbs 20% fats and 20% protein.

I had read that (the kidney stress whether true or not aside) that when you going into 250-300g a day, its just wasteful the lot ain't being used.

Think it was Ellington Durden, not sure.


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## TH0R (Aug 15, 2007)

rs007 said:


> Cheers mark, results noted, you are running a little under the trend I am finding when analysing competitive bb, but it all helps :thumbup1:


A little under the trend:whistling:where's patrick when you want him:lol: I always knew

he was right


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## anabolic ant (Jun 5, 2008)

nitrogen said:


> Thank you, I am recovering very fast, unfortunatelly banned from training and any strenous physical work by the surgeon for few months. As for me, it`s all about a healthy balanced diet now.


thats great news bro...you keep on the road to recovery,all the best!!!!

RS007,i'm so peed off,just wrote a corker of a good reply to your paragraph,but had a friggin power cut,hence why i've not been on the last hr and half,ffs:cursing:!!!!


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## dixie normus (May 11, 2008)

Gerry_bhoy said:


> I've switched up my diet a bit now. Its more 40% carbs 20% fats and 20% protein.


What is the other 20%? :confused1:


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## Prodiver (Nov 14, 2008)

tel3563 said:


> A little under the trend:whistling:where's patrick when you want him:lol: I always knew
> 
> he was right


"I'm biding my time,

That's the kinda guy I'm..." :whistling:


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## anabolic ant (Jun 5, 2008)

dixie normus said:


> What is the other 20%? :confused1:


i normally make up the other 20% with some good crack,cocaine and heroin:lol:!!!!


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## Gerry_bhoy (Dec 25, 2008)

dixie normus said:


> What is the other 20%? :confused1:


Jizz, mate.

My own.

60/20/20 I meant lol. Although not that I stick exactly to that. I do have protien with every meal (just less) but Carbs form the bulk.


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## mark etherden (May 28, 2009)

Alot of people may think that 270-300grms of protein is not enough,but like i said its all about quality and having it at the most benefical time plus its all about being able to digest all this.Buy a cheep protein powder sit on the toilet all night ain't good for no one.


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## TH0R (Aug 15, 2007)

I've been reading a fair bit on this over the last few weeks, I think the most convincing argument

is a mix of the two, the quality of the protein is as important as the correct quantity.

I copied this from a nutrition site and it kind of gives an incite into why different protein sources

are needed.

*Protein Quality is dependent on having all the essential amino acids in the proper proportions. If one or more amino acids are not present in sufficient amounts, the protein in a food is considered incomplete. Diets that are very low in protein or that are very restrictive in the types of protein consumed may not provide complete protein.*

*
*

*
Each spoke on the Protein Quality Indicator™ represents one of the nine essential amino acids. The size of each spoke is proportionate to the percentage of the optimal level for that amino acid. The amino acid with the lowest level is considered the "limiting" amino acid for that food and determines the overall Amino Acid Score.*

*
*

*
If the Amino Acid Score is less than 100, a link is provided to "complementary" sources of protein. These are foods that are higher in the limiting amino acid(s) and/or lower in the amino acids most prevalent in the food. By combining complementary proteins, you may be able to increase the overall quality of the protein you consume.*

The part I'm still a little confused with is I get 70% of my protein atm from chicken breast.

This gets a score of 120 on the amino acid table, so am I ok with this or should I be looking

at tuna, turkey etc, I just find it easier to have chicken 3 or 4 times per day.

I've also being having 250g of chicken per serving, after seeing a guy Marks size on 150g

I'm going to cut this down to see what happens.

Question

Should I up carbs/fats to make up the calorific difference?


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## Prodiver (Nov 14, 2008)

tel3563 said:


> ...
> 
> Question
> 
> Should I up carbs/fats to make up the calorific difference?


How do you know how many calories you need a day?


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## GunnaGetBig (Dec 14, 2008)

mark etherden said:


> OK this is pretty much been my diet.at first went down to 150carbs then started putting in days of 180,once the fat was right down 210-240 is a good place for me to stay,i try to get ready early now,i don't mind being almost ready 2 months out,every good bodybuilder i have spoke to that achives great conditition gets ready early and eats up to the show rather than being depleted by the time of the show,the reason why i had to hit it hard on 150carbs aday is due to bulking up to much off season,something that i will not be doing again.My day would be something like this.
> 
> 6am 50grms porridge oats with whey protein and tablespoon of udos oil
> 
> ...


When you say 150g chicken breast is that raw or cooked?

I currently have 200g raw and it comes out around 150-170 when cooked depending on method so am a little confused as to whether the fugures quoted are raw or cooked :confused1:


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## mark etherden (May 28, 2009)

Yes 150grms cooked


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## rs007 (May 28, 2007)

Prodiver said:


> "I'm biding my time,
> 
> That's the kinda guy I'm..." :whistling:


LOL still waayyyyy over what you are suggesting :lol:

Think it worked out at 1.3g per lb Mark is taking, probably a bit higher, because he has quoted full stage wieght, glycogen supercompensation will be skewing things - not by much, but definitely happening. So maybe 1.4ish per lb. Or, around 2.85g per kilo - versus your 1.8g per kilo that you thought was high.

Keep looking Pat

:lol:

Could be that Marks emphasis on protien quality is allowing it to be used more efficiently? Mind you all of the other bodybuiders I had looked at, including myself, were using beef, chicken, turkey, and whey blends, not exactly crap sources :thumbup1:


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## TH0R (Aug 15, 2007)

Prodiver said:


> How do you know how many calories you need a day?


Don't get this question:confused1:

I think the answer is because I've always (well last year anyway) kept a record of macros & cals, so

I know how many cals I need to maintain or grow, I've been on 4200 cals for

last few weeks and not increased bf but increased muscle, 370g protein.

So if I cut back to 270 (as an experiment) should I up carbs & fats to fill the

calorie void:confused1: I did notice Mark's carbs seemed higher than I'm used to

I probably wont and see how I get on with 3800 cals for a month.

Just wanting to learn what my optimum diet is, interesting to me

One thing I totally disagree with you about is the randomness of your diet, impossible

to tell where you are without structure, how do you know how many cals your eating

if you don't keep a record?


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## mark etherden (May 28, 2009)

Eating chicken and rice is fine 3-4 times aday,just try to get a good protein supplement in as well,you could go for a good protein blend.Theres been talk about the amount of calories aday,when i worked in a factory i needed alot more, now i don't need as much,it really does depend on the individual(lifestyle),just make sure you have a consent flow of protein and carbs every 2-3hours from getting up to going to bed.going back to the amount of protein you need,i own a supplement shop and have axcess to as much protein as i like, but still i maintain 270-300 if plenty. I would recommend For you to make up the calorific difference in carbs,keep the diet clean.


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## mark etherden (May 28, 2009)

When iam dieting carbs are my main concern,the foods iam eating can't be any less in calories because its the cleanest food we can eat.droping carbs,increasing carbs,carb rotation are things we do whilst dieting to get in shape,if i have a low carb day the protein stays the same, i just have the chicken and veg without the rice.


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## TH0R (Aug 15, 2007)

Thanks a lot Mark:thumbup1:


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## Prodiver (Nov 14, 2008)

tel3563 said:


> Don't get this question:confused1:
> 
> I think the answer is because I've always (well last year anyway) kept a record of macros & cals, so
> 
> ...


You don't need to!

It's extremely unlikely that you or anyone else can make a usefully accurate assessment of how many calories a day to eat.

After several weeks you can of course say that you have in fact eaten so many calories a day on average, and have gained or lost so much weight, which might be fat or muscle.

But your metaboic efficiency differs from others, your daily activities change and the anbient temperature changes, and it's dangerous to assume that according to some received wisdom you must eat so may calories every day throught the week, month or year according to bodyweight.

And anyway, a given number of calories tells you nothing about how many should come from carbs, protein and fats. And a notional 50:30:20 or any other chosen split may be wildly inappropriate for you too.

So there's absolutely no point in choosing and sticking rigidly to eating a certain number of calories a day, nor in knowing this useless number. If you do you may not be eating sufficient of the right foods for ages and so make no gains, or eating too much of the wrong foods, and get fat.

My diet isn't random at all! It uses simple feed-back, and many natural systems use feed-back. The single factor you need to work out is your protein need to ensure enough for gaining lean muscle. Thereafter it allows you to eat all manner of good foods and easily regulate your visible and palpable bodyfat level by adjusting your carbs continually day by day.


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## Guest (Nov 13, 2009)

Thanks very much for the many interesting responses to this question.

I just have a couple of comments on what rs007 wrote earlier on:



rs007 said:


> I wish people would stop bleating on about kidney stress. Yes it may occur. This is BODYBUILDING. To do it right, was never going to be healthy, you are pushing boundaries. Nothing comes without a price, to expect to add all this tissue, and not have any negative repercussions is quite frankly the belief of an imbecile.


OK, well one can accept that, but it would still be a good idea to know how much is really necessary in order to minimise possible long-term problems and, if nothing else, not to waste money and time buying and eating it. And anyway, I think I am coming more from the point of view of a low-level recreational trainer than most contributors. A lot of those reading this will be this type of BBer, and they expect basically their BBing to be "healthy", or not unnecessarily damaging.



rs007 said:


> She has studied sports nutrition - fair enough, but where in that course did she do studies in bodybuilding specifically? Its that underground and outlandish an activity that it probably has never been really analysed on this level - so I doubt she done any. Maybe a scant mention perhaps, but considering the wider public don't recognise it as a sport and indeed think the endeavour a bit odd, then I doubt any actual research exists.


I think this description of BBing as this "underground and outlandish activity" is a bit inaccurate. There are dozens of gyms in every town and city in the country. Go into any of them at any time and you will find dozens of people training, a good few of whom would say they are "bodybuilding". BBing in the broad sense is common, mainstream, out in the open and very big business. It is well-known and highly studied.



rs007 said:


> Also, I think the health profession is missing a frankly obvious point.
> 
> What the fck is muscle made from? Fresh air? Nope, its structure is protein mainly.
> 
> ...


This doesn't follow. The "health profession" all know that muscle is protein, as does any educated person. So is a lot of the rest of the body. We all know that mass of protein has to be maintained by protein intake. All that is already factored in when we recommend a certain intake per kg of body weight (or lean body weight). We are already recommending the intake is proportional to the lean mass of the individual so we are accounting for more developed physiques in the basic calculation. The suggestion here is that more advanced BBers need an escalating scale of protein intake for their mass (a bit like a super tax system as opposed to a fixed rate ordinary income tax system). There seems to be no evidence for this (but I can't disprove it either).



rs007 said:


> Finally, we know from first hand experience that, for example, the medical community don't have a clue about steroids. We talk about it often enough.
> 
> So why would we immediately trust anything else they publish as fact?


Well the medical profession, or medical researchers, or biomedical or biochemical scientists, discovered all we know about the human body. Bodybuilders didn't discover how the body works, protein, amino acids, GH, testosterone etc etc. Everything relevant to BBing we know comes from the medical profession, so it's a bit daft to say as a blanket accusation they don't know anything, isn't it? Let's try to find some evidence.

The best I can find with a quick search is this:

http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/0314.htm

There is a clear defect in the appliccibility of this study that I will admit, in that the men studied were not advanced or even experienced BBers. It would have been good if they had studied more advanced BBers as well. However, it maybe provides useful pointers to the correct intake for beginning or casual BBers, which will be a lot of those reading these threads. It confirms what I would have expected, that the correct protein intake is above the standard recommendation for ordinary people, but not enormously above - similar to what is recommended on the Nutrisport cans, in the range 1.2-1.8g/kg, or about twice the standard, not the 3-5g/kg often recommended on here, which is 5-8 times the standard.

I also feel, as others have said, probably the regularity of intake is an important factor, giving the muscles a steady stream day and night. A regime of 5 or 6 meals a day containing an average of 20g of protein each would therefore be optimal for a 70-80kg individual doing normal bodybuilding/strength training.


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## rs007 (May 28, 2007)

Davesky said:


> Thanks very much for the many interesting responses to this question.
> 
> I just have a couple of comments on what rs007 wrote earlier on:
> 
> ...


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## hilly (Jan 19, 2008)

rs did you notice marks protein was 160 cooked. not sure about others but this would equate to 200g for me uncooked. this may alther your ratio a bit on his protein intake?????


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## rs007 (May 28, 2007)

hilly said:


> rs did you notice marks protein was 160 cooked. not sure about others but this would equate to 200g for me uncooked. this may alther your ratio a bit on his protein intake?????


Think you are getting caught up in a smalle detail - fact is he quotes his total intake daily as 270 to 300g including supps, which I assume he doesnt cook


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## hilly (Jan 19, 2008)

lol i no mate i just thought you may have worked out his intake originally before he said the meat was cooked.

Im experimenting with this myself. I have been having 250-280g protein a day at a weight of 205lb bf around 12%. i have been making good strength gains but muscle mass hasnt been increasing how i want it. I have now bumpd this upto to 350gper day for the next few weeks and will see how this go's then i will increase to 400.


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

Davesky said:


> This is a vital question for BBs, but there seem to be huge discrepancies between recommendations from different sources.
> 
> On my container of Nutrisport 90+ whey protein, it says "0.8-0.9g/kg body weight [daily] for normal individuals, 1.2-1.8g/kg for athletes" protein is recommended.
> 
> ...


The key thing about the topic "How much protein is really necessary?" is to identify what is definied as "necessary" - to merely prevent the organs being broken down, to allow for a status quo protein balance or for muscluar hypertrophy?

The reason there are conflicting answers to this discussion in forums, articles, blogs and seemingly from research and studies too is because the studies quoted on protein use are often a mix of bits of research looking to answer these questions individually but the conclusions tend to get bundled together and confused, and generalised to answer the wrong question (incorrectly using a figure for bare minimum requirement as one for positive nitrogen balance etc). Also, as already pointed out, many of the studies use only one experience level of athlete or may even only test a group expressing some form of illness - these things too should not be ignored as they can affect the result and may not make it so relevant to a 'hobby' bodybuilder.

The 0.6g per kg bodyweight figure mentioned in the opening post is the magic figure as a bare minimum for an athlete - it is the amount that you require to avoid breaking down your internal organs to meet the daily demand of protein requirements for reactions within the body. The figure comes from the studies of Butterfield, and is pretty much regarded as bang on (the figure is actually 0.65g per kg for athletes and 0.8g per kg for non athletes. This figure is lower for athletes as they have greater protein effciiency). Stay below this figure for an extended period of time and eventually your organs will begin to screw up.

As for what is optimum to grow muscle tissue, there is no answer, as too many variables are involved - experience of athlete (which affects protein effciency), level of glucose dependent activity and carbs taken (if carbs aer low and you train in the glycogen burning zone you will need more protein to prevent excess catabolism from muscles for gluconegenesis), whether in caloric excess of defecit (higher protein to bodyweight required when in defecit), age of athlete (more protein, especially BCAA rich ones required the older you get), general breakdown of amino acid profile of proteins (if a high percentage of your foods are EAA rich then you will need less overall than if you mostly eat NEAA proteins)...

Is a pretty complex question when you get into the details, but many folks just want a rough estimate they can grow some muscle on... and in general the 1.5-2g per kg/bodyweight rule is pretty much spot on imo.


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## rs007 (May 28, 2007)

Dtlv74 said:


> The key thing about the topic "How much protein is really necessary?" is to identify what is definied as "necessary" - to merely prevent the organs being broken down, to allow for a status quo protein balance or for muscluar hypertrophy?
> 
> The reason there are conflicting answers to this discussion in forums, articles, blogs and seemingly from research and studies too is because the studies quoted on protein use are often a mix of bits of research looking to answer these questions individually but the conclusions tend to get bundled together and confused, and generalised to answer the wrong question (incorrectly using a figure for bare minimum requirement as one for positive nitrogen balance etc). Also, as already pointed out, many of the studies use only one experience level of athlete or may even only test a group expressing some form of illness - these things too should not be ignored as they can affect the result and may not make it so relevant to a 'hobby' bodybuilder.
> 
> ...


I liked that post. Really did. You even wrote IMO at the end bit :thubmup1:

But pepsi-challenge. Put your protein where your mouth is 

Put up some pics of massive bodybuilders that take in just 1.5g to 2g per kg bodywieght. And I don't just mean sticking up a pic of roni coleman, and some ghost written article from Flex, telling you what his diet is :lol:

I mean I am an open minded guy, I reckon you will get 1 or 2, tis possible.

But I could probably dig plenty out pics of massive bodybuilders that take in way more (that I have spoken too personally), and know from experience that they need this amount just to maintain, never mind gain...

Like you say, most folks may want a rough estimate to work from... so I'd say, try your amount.

And, when you don't grow, up it :thumbup1:


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## Guest (Nov 14, 2009)

Thanks for those interesting clarifications, Dtlv. I too have been dissappointed by the quality of the research on this subject.

rs, I certainly am a loon, there is no doubt about that :laugh:

I will try 120g per day (that's 1.7g/kg for me) and tell you after a year how I have got on. It might just work for me as I don't have much muscle to start with. :laugh: Quite honestly I find it difficult enough eating that level consistently.


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## mark etherden (May 28, 2009)

Good luck mate,i enjoyed talking on this subject,look forward to more disscusions in the future.


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

i know that Haney Rambod Cutler's and Heaths coach advocates very high protein amounts of 600g+ a day for a 260lb+ BB, his reasoning is that to many guys wanting to achieve muscle gain eat to little protein....you have to understand that we as bodybuilders are not normal so the normal amount of protein per KG/LB cannot be used even those for an athlete are redundant as in general athletes do not hold as much muscle as a bodybuilder....

I have taken my protein down to 1g per lb and found my gains have suffered for me 1.5g per lb is optimum this does get raised slightly when i diet but then like Mark i diet on low carbs....

there is no one correct answer to this one it is about trial and error


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## fitnessfreak (Jun 15, 2009)

I think that it really depends on how heavy you are too. If you are underweight (like myself) and trying to gain then you will naturally have a high amount compared to bodyweight because of eating a higer calorie diet. I get at least 1.5g per pound of bodyweight per day but usually end up being 2g per pound or higher.


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## hilly (Jan 19, 2008)

Pscarb said:


> i know that Haney Rambod Cutler's and Heaths coach advocates very high protein amounts of 600g+ a day for a 260lb+ BB, his reasoning is that to many guys wanting to achieve muscle gain eat to little protein....you have to understand that we as bodybuilders are not normal so the normal amount of protein per KG/LB cannot be used even those for an athlete are redundant as in general athletes do not hold as much muscle as a bodybuilder....
> 
> I have taken my protein down to 1g per lb and found my gains have suffered for me 1.5g per lb is optimum this does get raised slightly when i diet but then like Mark i diet on low carbs....
> 
> there is no one correct answer to this one it is about trial and error


from hat i have read and seen i believe oscar who preps kia and evan is also of this opinion of high protein as is dante. those 3 peopes opinions mean an aweful lot to me lol.


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