# Body composition response to exogenous GH while training in highly conditioned adults



## 3752

This study https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3170408 i feel just proves that IF everything else is on par (study was carried out conditioned athletes) so as i have said for years when you have reached a decent level with your physique where you know what you are eating, training hard and getting the rest you need then GH is a great addition..

demonstrating positive body composition changes in highly trained athletes w/ 2g/kg per day protein intake & 8iu of GH 3x per week (EOD), w/ no other compounds.

NOTE: Protropin 1mg = 3iu or 1iu = 333mcg

EOD dose (3x per week) in the following study: 2.67mg or 8iu

Weekly total dose = 8mg or 24iu

Summary results:

FFW = fat free Weight

FW = fat Weight

[IMG alt="image.jpg" data-fileid="77034"]<fileStore.core_Attachment>/monthly_04_2013/post-1271-143614687365_thumb.jpg[/IMG]

Body composition response to exogenous GH during training in highly conditioned adults, D. M. Crist, J Appl Physiol 65: 579-584, 1988

Intro:

The effects of biosynthetic methionyl-human growth hormone (met-hGH) on body composition and endogenous secretion of growth hormone (GH) and insulin-like growth factor I (IGF-I) were studied in eight well-trained exercising adults between 22 and 33 yr of age for 6 weeks.

Dosing & Administration:

The met-hGH (experimental) treatment consisted of 8.0 mg (2 U/mg) per week of methGH (Protropin; Genentech, San Francisco, CA), which was divided into three doses (2.67 mg/dose) and delivered on alternate days (3 days/wk) in 0.5 ml of bacteriostatic diluent. Because of differences in the body weights of the subjects, the relative dose range varied between 0.03 and 0.05 mg/kg per injection. Injections were given between 0800 and 1500, and their delivery was rotated among four to six sites throughout the study period. Treatments were administered on a double-blind basis with neither the experimental subject nor the person administering the injections knowing which treatment was being delivered. The total weekly dose of met-hGH used in this study (8.0 mg) was considered supraphysiological, since the spontaneous release of human GH during a 24-h period is purportedly -0.68 mg (4.8 mg/wk) in men and 0.79 mg (5.5 mg/wk) in women (30), similar to amounts reported by others (6).

CONCLUSION

In the present study, we found that alternate-day treatment with met-hGH altered body composition in highly conditioned, exercising adults by increasing FFW (fat free weight), decreasing %fat, and increasing FFW (fat free weight)/FW (fat weight). These changes were significantly greater than those produced by exercise alone.

...

Moreover we found that supraphysiological amounts of met-hGH were sufficient to significantly elevate circulating concentrations of IGF-I in all our subjects, confirming that the changes in body composition were indeed due to real alterations produced in vivo by the hormone treatment.

Supression of endogenous GH

It has been reported previously that exogenous GH will suppress endogenous release of the hormone (19,23) and that this effect may be mediated in part by elevated levels of IGF-I (23). On a preliminary basis, we found that treatment for 6 wk with supraphysiological doses of met-hGH produced an impaired endogenous GH response to stimulation in some, but not all, of our subjects. This variable response may be related to the amount of hormone used in the study. Although a significant group elevation in IGF-I levels occurred during the met-hGH treatment, this response was still below the upper limit of normal (2.20 U/ml) for the study group. Thus it is plausible that the treatment dose of met-hGH used and the subsequent moderate increase in IGF-I levels led to feedback suppression of endogenous GH release in five of the seven subjects measured for this effect, whereas these physiological events were insufficient to produce this effect in two of the subjects.

Intense exercise increases sensitivity to GH??

...One possible explanation for the disparity between our findings and those of others (25, 26) is that the stress of long-term, intensive exercise training could induce alterations in vivo, which might potentiate tissue sensitivity to the physiological actions of GH (2). In any case, it is clear from our findings that supraphysiological doses of met-hGH increased circulating concentrations of IGF-I and increased FFW (fat free weight) and decreased FW (fat weight) in highly conditioned, exercising adults.

Soft-tissue Overgrowth?

There are two principal adverse reactions associated with excessive amounts of human GH, carbohydrate intolerance, and soft-tissue overgrowth. In the present study, we measured fasting blood glucose levels periodically throughout each treatment and found no real changes suggestive of a hyperglycemic response to methGH. Because soft-tissue overgrowth is associated with abnormally high levels of IGF-I, the normal responses observed suggest that the chance for soft-tissue overgrowth occurring in our subjects was minimal. However, it is unreasonable to conclude that use of met-hGH is safe as an adjunct to exercise in healthy adults until more subjects are studied over longer periods of time and with more stringent tests for detecting changes in glucose tolerance and soft-tissue overgrowth.

Diet used

To avoid compromising the dietary requirements for optimal tissue anabolism during the met-hGH treatment, our subjects ingested between 2.05 and 2.10 g/kg a day of protein and a minimum number of kilocalories to maintain body weight. The kilocaloric requirement removed the potential bias from a dietary-induced FW loss.

In Conclusion

We conclude that treatment with supraphysiological doses of met-hGH will significantly alter body composition in adults who are highly conditioned from years of exercise training. The magnitude of this effect, however, is dependent in part on the amount of hormone given per body weight of the individual rather than endogenous GH secretory status. Changes in body composition are directly related to met-hGH administration, but the manifestations of treatment may be mediated in part by increased production of IGF-I or other GH-dependent serum anabolic factors. Moreover, supraphysiological treatment with met-hGH in exercising adults may produce impairments in the stimulated release of endogenous GH in some individuals.


----------



## 3752

here are a few comments relative to the study above they explain the important points that some who have not read many studies might miss........

The above study is one of those rare studies that is directly applicable to bodybuilding. One to add to your knowledge base.

Things to note:

- GH w/o exogenous anabolics/androgens and w/o insulin increased muscle mass and lowered bodyfat % over 6 weeks.

- The participants were healthy young women & men.

- Participants were highly trained athletes who had no expectation of losing body weight nor gaining bodyweight because these parameters were stable due to their current conditioning.

- The dosing was every other day, only 3x per week.

- The daily dosing was 8iu for a weekly total of 24iu.

- This was sufficient to elevate IGF-1 levels but not to the point where they contributed to soft-tissue growth.

- No soft-tissue growth (such as gut) occurred.

- Protein intake was 2g/kg but diet was maintenance (body recomposition on a maintenance diet).

- IGF-1 was underscored as the primary suppressant of natural GH release and it was at a level where after 6 weeks five of the seven participants had suppressed natural GH release.

- the study's estimation of what the normal level of GH is in men & women is too high because the study was done in 1988 when assays were not sensitive enough to distinguish between GH ligands, GH-binding protein and GH fragments. (This has no effect on the results ...just a note not to rely on their stated estimate in that regard.)

What can you (and I too of course) learn from this, that goes against convention?

"GH is not anabolic w/o insulin" does not mean that you need exogenous insulin.

A sufficient amino acid pool is likely required.

You can both gain muscle & lose fat at a maintenance caloric intake w/ GH & training.

Six weeks is a sufficient amount of time to make positive changes.

You don't need beaucoup amounts of GH!!!!


----------



## dazbcos1969

Paul

Could you clear up a couple of things for me please? Injection delivery was rotated among four to six sites throughout the study period, i take it this is refering to six different muscle groups? also Injections were given between 0800 and 1500, anytime between 8.00 to 15.00 will do? Good data BTW  on my 2nd GH cycle 2.5iu upon waking and 2.5iu before bed 5 on 2 off normaly the weekend off  wanting to lose that last bit of fat around the belly where i inject but it's doubled in fat or water not halfed  thanks in advance for your time 

Cheers Daz B


----------



## 3752

i know what you do concerning the study, i would take the injection sites as just that rotation of injection sites to prevent soreness same with the timing this is to indicate it was not just taken at one time.

i am confused about the rest of your post though you injected into your belly and it doubled in fat or water? GH does not do that yes you can hold water and the injection site could hold alot from the procedure of injecting but i doubt it would double and it would drop off quickly as it would be water not fat unless your diet is poor?


----------



## MRSTRONG

Any idea of the type of sport the `eight well-trained exercising adults between 22 and 33 yr of age` followed ?


----------



## dazbcos1969

Pscarb said:


> i know what you do concerning the study, i would take the injection sites as just that rotation of injection sites to prevent soreness same with the timing this is to indicate it was not just taken at one time.
> 
> i am confused about the rest of your post though you injected into your belly and it doubled in fat or water? GH does not do that yes you can hold water and the injection site could hold alot from the procedure of injecting but i doubt it would double and it would drop off quickly as it would be water not fat unless your diet is poor?


First off thanks for the reply  Well probs exaggerating about double the fat Ha! But it seemed like more at the time not less, i work offshore been away one week clean diet etc and lost the water already, ok will give this method a go next time home 

Thanks again Daz B


----------



## Sambuca

ewen said:


> Any idea of the type of sport the `eight well-trained exercising adults between 22 and 33 yr of age` followed ?


wonder if it was bodypump and spin


----------



## need2bodybuild

Thanks for bringing this to the forum! It's thrown a spanner in the works as i was going to stop using it, i might reconsider now..


----------



## 3752

ewen said:


> Any idea of the type of sport the `eight well-trained exercising adults between 22 and 33 yr of age` followed ?


i only know what the study says.....but highly conditioned athletes would not be people who go to the gym once or twice imo


----------



## MRSTRONG

Pscarb said:


> i only know what the study says.....but highly conditioned athletes would not be people who go to the gym once or twice imo


i would guess it to be an american study based on the fitness levels of people like NFL athletes , highly conditioned weight trainers of average body fat , so this method could relate to dwarves and fat strongmen imo and not to recreational gym rats .


----------



## 3752

ewen said:


> i would guess it to be an american study based on the fitness levels of people like NFL athletes , highly conditioned weight trainers of average body fat , so this method could relate to dwarves and fat strongmen imo and not to recreational gym rats .


it could be but then it could not be?????

as i mentioned in the first post this shows that you will see results in this short period of time BUT you need to have all other things nailed and in my experience rec gym rats don't but then i don't think rec gym rats should use GH


----------



## Superhorse

Good study Paul - thanks for posting. So if I have 25-30iu of pharma GH to use a week you would recommend eod adminstration in one shot post workout? Gonna be tough for anyone training in the morning as assuming 8-10iu shot = sleep but could go well for evening trainers I suppose...


----------



## 3752

Superhorse said:


> Good study Paul - thanks for posting. So if I have 25-30iu of pharma GH to use a week you would recommend eod adminstration in one shot post workout? Gonna be tough for anyone training in the morning as assuming 8-10iu shot = sleep but could go well for evening trainers I suppose...


from my own findings i recommend 1 large shot EOD, i do this before bed but it can be used PWO.....

i prefer this method because my life with work/training etc suits this more than ED use plus i use peptides on my non GH days which works very well....


----------



## Papa Lazarou

I don't see a dosing time - in reality do you think post workout/pre bed is best or whatever fits your day?


----------



## 3752

Papa Lazarou said:


> I don't see a dosing time - in reality do you think post workout/pre bed is best or whatever fits your day?


It does say the injections where taken between 8.00 am and 15.00 but timing in my opinion holds very little advantage to many although there could be some validity in using GH post workout when you would ingest carbs and spike insulin as we know this combination is very good, for me before bed is better as it gives me better sleep so enhanced recovery


----------



## Dead lee

Iv not seen this on dats board, iv moved over to the one shot post workout last week after trying pre workout for a week, on non training days iv been doing 5iu pre bed as well lately, because i train late and the pre bed shot on non training days iv been getting the best sleep iv had for many years.

I prefer this to the pulsing i was doing it's a lot less hassle, not to say im not going to go back to pulsing at some point.


----------



## reza85

Hi Paul

If using hydrotropin intead off pharma what dose would u recommend ?


----------



## 3752

reza85 said:


> Hi Paul
> 
> If using hydrotropin intead off pharma what dose would u recommend ?


I cannot answer this as the study used pharma GH so the same results cannot be applied to an inferior product the results would of been different, I am not aware of this GH but it sounds like another 100iu kit from china so purity and consistency would be an issue and if it is new the general thing that happens is they overdose it to create a buzz before knocking it down again.

This does not mean this method cannot be applied to non pharma GH just that trial and error would have to be your guide as any answer from me would be a guess


----------



## 3752

reza85 said:


> Hi Paul
> 
> If using hydrotropin intead off pharma what dose would u recommend ?


I cannot answer this as the study used pharma GH so the same results cannot be applied to an inferior product the results would of been different, I am not aware of this GH but it sounds like another 100iu kit from china so purity and consistency would be an issue and if it is new the general thing that happens is they overdose it to create a buzz before knocking it down again.

This does not mean this method cannot be applied to non pharma GH just that trial and error would have to be your guide as any answer from me would be a guess


----------



## reza85

Sorry that was a typo I ment hydretropin the pin wheels


----------



## reza85

Thanks

I guess u never know what u getting with hgh now days


----------



## 3752

reza85 said:


> Sorry that was a typo I ment hydretropin the pin wheels


Hygetropin......

if these are the original pin wheels then 10ius should be good now i cannot for reasons i mentioned above about the study say if this will give the same results but why not trial it, nail your diet and for 6 weeks maintain calories from clean foods train hard and rest well then add 10iu M/W/F your own mini study if you will??


----------



## Xbigdave79

Hi pscarp so would eod hgh injections and peps on days off be better than

Pulsing the hgh then peptides 15 minutes after hgh injections


----------



## 3752

Xbigdave79 said:


> Hi pscarp so would eod hgh injections and peps on days off be better than
> 
> Pulsing the hgh then peptides 15 minutes after hgh injections


you would not pulse the GH then add the peptides 15 min after you would inject the peptides then add the GH 15 min after...

better in what way?

it all depends on the type of GH and peptides you use and the dose you use daily.......i use GH M/W/F and peptides on Tu/Th/Sa and find it very good


----------



## Superhorse

Pscarb - sorry slightly off topic, what's your view on 8iu as a dose. People talk about 4-6iu fat loss and 8-10iu+ for muscle. Do you see the purposes as exclusive i.e. 10iu+ does not serve the fat loss purpose as well as the smaller dose? Or is the key to this how it is split out?

Thanks for your comments, really helpful and this is a great study.


----------



## 3752

this confuses me when people say this, GH is GH is GH is GH......the higher dose would give more fluid retention so a visual look of more size but 10iu would still give you fatloss no less than 4iu in fact more to a point.

now there is an argument which i tend to agree with if you pulse 2-4iu 3 or 4 times through the day you will get more fatloss than say doing 8iu in one shot but both will do what GH does it will not burn fat just because you have injected a larger dose....


----------



## Superhorse

Thanks Pscarb, think I will build up to 3*3 or 3*4 mixed with a few one shotters before bed


----------



## reza85

Quick one Paul I know u recommend eod but would you still run this way with out ghrp on off days ?


----------



## 3752

reza85 said:


> Quick one Paul I know u recommend eod but would you still run this way with out ghrp on off days ?


Yes mate and have done so in the past (I like to try all ways to work out which is best for me) i have also ran it with just one large shot of IPAM before bed on non training nights (awesome for sleep)


----------



## reza85

Thanks Paul will keep going and update with results !


----------



## reza85

Hi Paul I know you have gone over this but just to clarify.

Every one says that eating after a GH shot blunts your GH release I Think I read some were you saying this is not true ?

Thanks

A


----------



## 3752

reza85 said:


> Hi Paul I know you have gone over this but just to clarify.
> 
> Every one says that eating after a GH shot blunts your GH release I Think I read some were you saying this is not true ?
> 
> Thanks
> 
> A


it is a myth, you blunt the release of natural growth by eating carbs/fats after you jab peptides but injectable GH is all ready GH it does not need to produce a pulse it is one so there is no need to availed food either before or after when using synthetic GH


----------



## reza85

Thanks again Paul so I can inject and have a meal straight away.

Thanks

A


----------



## Papa Lazarou

Would GHRP2 or similar be worth it on the days between? Maybe even a "boom" amount the evening after so one has the GH peak and over 15 hours, then GHRP the following night, then GH the night after. Silly or a good idea?

FWIW I've used the method suggested here with Hyge Orignals and I must say I'm finding it very effective in terms of skin look/feel and body fat dropping.


----------



## 3752

Papa Lazarou said:


> Would GHRP2 or similar be worth it on the days between? Maybe even a "boom" amount the evening after so one has the GH peak and over 15 hours, then GHRP the following night, then GH the night after. Silly or a good idea?
> 
> FWIW I've used the method suggested here with Hyge Orignals and I must say I'm finding it very effective in terms of skin look/feel and body fat dropping.


i use the standard GHRP-2/Mod GRF x 3 day on the non training days with a large IPAM/mod GRF dose before bed, on training days M/W/F i do a 8iu injection of Pharma GH before bed and this is working very well....


----------



## Papa Lazarou

Thanks Paul, will check bank balance and look to incorporate that. SRC still the best?


----------



## 3752

Papa Lazarou said:


> Thanks Paul, will check bank balance and look to incorporate that. SRC still the best?


the source Tom on Dats board is the best but you cannot just sign up to the forum anymore to use him, SRC are the best i have used after Tom's but i order this weekend from 2 UK sources to test them against SRC's (i can say now just from prices i doubt they will be as good as Tom's)


----------



## Outtapped

Pscarb said:


> here are a few comments relative to the study above from Dat they explain the important points that some who have not read many studies might miss........
> 
> Dat's Comments:
> 
> The above study is one of those rare studies that is directly applicable to bodybuilding. One to add to your knowledge base.
> 
> Things to note:
> 
> - GH w/o exogenous anabolics/androgens and w/o insulin increased muscle mass and lowered bodyfat % over 6 weeks.
> 
> - The participants were healthy young women & men.
> 
> - Participants were highly trained athletes who had no expectation of losing body weight nor gaining bodyweight because these parameters were stable due to their current conditioning.
> 
> - The dosing was every other day, only 3x per week.
> 
> - The daily dosing was 8iu for a weekly total of 24iu.
> 
> - This was sufficient to elevate IGF-1 levels but not to the point where they contributed to soft-tissue growth.
> 
> - No soft-tissue growth (such as gut) occurred.
> 
> - Protein intake was 2g/kg but diet was maintenance (body recomposition on a maintenance diet).
> 
> - IGF-1 was underscored as the primary suppressant of natural GH release and it was at a level where after 6 weeks five of the seven participants had suppressed natural GH release.
> 
> - the study's estimation of what the normal level of GH is in men & women is too high because the study was done in 1988 when assays were not sensitive enough to distinguish between GH ligands, GH-binding protein and GH fragments. (This has no effect on the results ...just a note not to rely on their stated estimate in that regard.)
> 
> What can you (and I too of course) learn from this, that goes against convention?
> 
> "GH is not anabolic w/o insulin" does not mean that you need exogenous insulin.
> 
> A sufficient amino acid pool is likely required.
> 
> You can both gain muscle & lose fat at a maintenance caloric intake w/ GH & training.
> 
> Six weeks is a sufficient amount of time to make positive changes.
> 
> You don't need beaucoup amounts of GH!!!!


Hi mate,

Have you ever tried doses of around 4ius? (half of what is stated above)

I am just wondering if it would be worth while or just save up and run 8ius further down the line


----------



## Papa Lazarou

Will wait to see how you get on in comparison - no hurry for me  ))


----------



## 3752

WhySoSerious said:


> Hi mate,
> 
> Have you ever tried doses of around 4ius? (half of what is stated above)
> 
> I am just wondering if it would be worth while or just save up and run 8ius further down the line


the dose is irrelevant really it will change the end results but there will still be results in the 6 week period, i have used 4iu on a daily bases but never on a EOD method as this is not what the method is for in my opinion.....


----------



## 3752

Papa Lazarou said:


> Will wait to see how you get on in comparison - no hurry for me  ))


in comparison to what?


----------



## Papa Lazarou

Pscarb said:


> in comparison to what?


Between suppliers.


----------



## 3752

Papa Lazarou said:


> Between suppliers.


gotcha


----------



## reza85

Paul if not using peps wat do think about doing say 8ius eod and say 4 ius on off days ? Would that yeald better results ?

Thanks


----------



## 3752

reza85 said:


> Paul if not using peps wat do think about doing say 8ius eod and say 4 ius on off days ? Would that yeald better results ?
> 
> Thanks


I do not know but this study is taking a larger amount M/W/F if you add other criteria to it the outcome will be different, personnelly I see no need


----------



## Bull Terrier

@Pscarb - do you think that a well-planned peptide protocol (let's say 5x dosing per day of 100mcg of pharma-grade GHRP2 + MOD GRF on training days, either 30 mins before eating or 20 mins after) would yield comparable results to what one could obtain on 8 IU of GH 3 days per week?

I'm asking because the high cost of GH and difficulty in finding properly-dosed products really puts me off.


----------



## 3752

i really cannot say mate without doing it myself, in theory 5 x saturation dose should give approx 5.65iu per day of GH (this will depend on the grade of the peptide (cheap is cheap for a reason)) you could increase this if you high doses IPAM before bed (500mcg or more before bed) as this would give a further release in the night....

one thing i know is that when i used 5 x day it was a noticeable change from 3 x day....and i could if memory serves me right make a decent comparison to the 8iu x week of pharma and it would be close......

sorry that i cannot give you a concrete answer....


----------



## Mark2021

What is the benfits of high dosing ipam before bed?

And do you use alongside anything?

I have currently just started 4ius GH per day


----------



## Bull Terrier

Pscarb said:


> i really cannot say mate without doing it myself, in theory 5 x saturation dose should give approx 5.65iu per day of GH (this will depend on the grade of the peptide (cheap is cheap for a reason)) you could increase this if you high doses IPAM before bed (500mcg or more before bed) as this would give a further release in the night....
> 
> one thing i know is that when i used 5 x day it was a noticeable change from 3 x day....and i could if memory serves me right make a decent comparison to the 8iu x week of pharma and it would be close......
> 
> sorry that i cannot give you a concrete answer....


Far from it mate - that was actually a very informative answer. Thanks for that.


----------



## Papa Lazarou

Paul - I use hyge originals (no stickers, no website etc, all good).

If one could do say 16iu Hyge EOD as per this protocol, do you think one could expect much improved results or do you think there is a definite cut off point where the ratio of iu's going in against results slants off heavily to become a waste of money. Simply wondering the tipping point of IU going in V cost. I'm cutting ATM.

Defo enjoying this protocol more than any other I've used as its simple to remember and yields results on 8iu hyge EOD. Just wondering if I can improve things further still.

FWIW I can't be bothered with daily jabs hence not using peps really beyond maybe IPAM once a day before bed at 500mcg - again is there a dose again where you have a cut off point of cost V dose going in? I'd rather spend a little more and get most benefit rather saving a little and less of a result.

Also, I'm gonna be bulking this winter - with this protocol and the 15 hours or so that the growth as you say is spiked in the system, would daily use of slin several times a day and pre workout allow leaner gains or would you recommend a small shot of growth when the growth has left the system to minimize fat gains.

Sorry for so many questions!


----------



## Mark2021

@Pscarb any ideas when your gonna update the comparison thread?

Really looking forward to seeing your feedback!

Apologises if your busy!


----------



## 3752

Mark2021 said:


> @Pscarb any ideas when your gonna update the comparison thread?
> 
> Really looking forward to seeing your feedback!
> 
> Apologises if your busy!


it should be tonight but other things have taken me away from doing it at the moment


----------



## husaberg

ok thanks anyway


----------



## 3752

husaberg said:


> ok thanks anyway


maybe instead of deleting a question in future you actually tag me in the question so that i know you have asked me for the answer, as i know it is hard to believe but i don't spend my day searching through the posts hoping for a question that is aimed at me.


----------



## Benchbum

I do... Alas I remain permanently disappointed.


----------



## husaberg

Pscarb said:


> maybe instead of deleting a question in future you actually tag me in the question so that i know you have asked me for the answer, as i know it is hard to believe but i don't spend my day searching through the posts hoping for a question that is aimed at me.


i removed it as i opened a thread with the same type of questions and i left the thanks anyway out of politeness as i know you have a lot to anwser..i have just tagged you as well in a new thread hadn't seen this then but i certainly wasn't being wierd with it


----------



## sitries

dazbcos1969 said:


> Paul
> 
> Could you clear up a couple of things for me please? Injection delivery was rotated among four to six sites throughout the study period, i take it this is refering to six different muscle groups? also Injections were given between 0800 and 1500, anytime between 8.00 to 15.00 will do? Good data BTW  on my 2nd GH cycle 2.5iu upon waking and 2.5iu before bed 5 on 2 off normaly the weekend off  wanting to lose that last bit of fat around the belly where i inject but it's doubled in fat or water not halfed  thanks in advance for your time
> 
> Cheers Daz B


 Jab it on ur arms Instead. I get the same issue when I do belly injections - it's water weight and a bit of swelling.

What growth are you using, I find the Chinese varieties give me more bloat than western pharma


----------



## swole troll

sitries said:


> Jab it on ur arms Instead. I get the same issue when I do belly injections - it's water weight and a bit of swelling.
> 
> What growth are you using, I find the Chinese varieties give me more bloat than western pharma


 bit late on this one marty


----------



## Slindog

awesome information


----------



## vaDImadi

Fat free mass isnt explicitly muscle though

Could simply be water weight


----------



## 3752

vaDImadi said:


> Fat free mass isnt explicitly muscle though
> 
> Could simply be water weight


 could be but there is nothing in the study to say it is water plus fat free mass would not be water, now if the water was in the muscle then ok but then muscle is made up of 70% water so not sure of your point?


----------



## vaDImadi

HGH is well know to bloat and cause water retention

So to assume fat free mass means its adding three quarters of a pound of actual muscle tissue each week cannot be correct as then hgh would be well known as a great muscle builder

HGH has never been shown to add muscle weight in any study

Therefore, likely added bloat


----------



## 3752

vaDImadi said:


> HGH is well know to bloat and cause water retention
> 
> So to assume fat free mass means its adding three quarters of a pound of actual muscle tissue each week cannot be correct as then hgh would be well known as a great muscle builder
> 
> HGH has never been shown to add muscle weight in any study
> 
> Therefore, likely added bloat


 so they got leaner but they are bloated? plus in general water weight from GH is mainly Sub-Q the method of testing for this study was Hydrostatic underwater weighing which does not include sub-q water in the FFW unless it is in the muscle and if its in the muscle then that is a good thing......


----------



## Cuzzy89

Thanks pscarb only reason I just joined forum was for your content tbh...


----------



## SlinMeister

@Pscarb

Shooting 8iu HGH first thing AM do you think it will be bad?

I workout at 7am and wake up at 5am, i would shoot it at 5am..... is that wrong or do you think it will be better to shoot it before bed?

Usually HGH never made me lethargic at all....

Another question.

Since Insulin increases HGH expression by 400-500%, what about shooting HGH first thing AM together with Lantus and then 5-10iu Humalog postwo?

I.E. (i won't say insulin doses)



Code:


5am 8iu HGH Lantus Humalog

7am Start wo

8;30am End wo, 

9:00 shoot Humalog, have postwo meal

12:00 shoot Humalog, have lunch

no more insulin and hgh injections.

 Was thinking to use this protocol EOD or MWF and use it just on Back and Legs days.



> 5am 8iu HGH Humalin.-R
> 
> 7am Start wo
> 
> 8;30am End wo,
> 
> 9:00 shoot Humalog, have postwo meal
> 
> no more insulin and hgh injections.


 Hope to have been clear enough...


----------



## Dannyb0yb

SlinMeister said:


> @Pscarb
> 
> Shooting 8iu HGH first thing AM do you think it will be bad?
> 
> I workout at 7am and wake up at 5am, i would shoot it at 5am..... is that wrong or do you think it will be better to shoot it before bed?
> 
> Usually HGH never made me lethargic at all....
> 
> Another question.
> 
> Since Insulin increases HGH expression by 400-500%, what about shooting HGH first thing AM together with Lantus and then 5-10iu Humalog postwo?
> 
> I.E. (i won't say insulin doses)
> 
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> 5am 8iu HGH Lantus Humalog
> 
> 7am Start wo
> 
> 8;30am End wo,
> 
> 9:00 shoot Humalog, have postwo meal
> 
> 12:00 shoot Humalog, have lunch
> 
> no more insulin and hgh injections.
> 
> Was thinking to use this protocol EOD or MWF and use it just on Back and Legs days.
> 
> Hope to have been clear enough...


 Could you elaborate on insulin boosting the hgh expression by 400%?

Or maybe @Pscarb knows about it?


----------



## Bathman99

Interesting stuff. Going to try this protocol. It looks like in the study they did the 8IU in one injection. @Pscarb and others do you do the same or split doses? Just wondering if they went for that approach in the study because its easier to get subjects to commit to one injection per day vs 2, and in a real life splitting may be more optimal. Some hold the belief anything over 4IU ish in one injection will be wasted as the body can only process so much GH in one go. Sounds a bit like bro science that to me tbh.


----------

