# skinny fat getting nowhere



## leepsheep (Feb 12, 2016)

Should I bulk or cut?

I did a very lean bulk for 5 months last year, gaining 0.5lb/week (4kg in total) while doing something similar to starting strength, my lifts increased a lot and I got much stronger.
However, I just got fat. I didn't put on much noticeable muscle and my belly fat and especially my moobs got massive. I was advised to cut down.

I have since lost about 4kg doing a 4 day split with HIIT cardio and I am afraid to lose any more weight.
I still have big moobs (the picture doesn't do them justice) which stick out a lot and I hate them. I can also still grab a big handful or two of fat around my mid region.
I am afraid if I start bulking again the same will happen as before - that I'll just get much fatter again and not that much more muscle.

I started to read some articles by lyle mcdonald and he advises cutting down to 11-12% before doing a bulk due to various things like bad nutrient partitioning / insulin resistance etc but I feel like I will just be way too skinny if I cut down that much.
I am 60kg right now and 5,7". My body fat is probably 15-20%?

I keep seem to be going in circles with this and getting nowhere, its been about 8 months now my spinning wheels.

Can anyone give me some good advice on what to do?
My long term goals are to be 8-10kg heavier and around 11-12%.

I would rather bulk and try put on a lot more muscle - but as I said above last time I did that I just got quite fat eating a very clean diet with a 200-300 caloric surplus and it was a complete waste of time. I was able to cut down just fine while maintaining strength, losing around 1lb a week on a near identical diet but in a deficit.

On the other side of the coin I could cut down to 11-12%, lose any excess bodyfat and do a very lean bulk.. but it means I'll end up being underweight and probably looking very unhealthy for a couple of months which I hate the idea of.



Any help greatly appreciated


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## Dark sim (May 18, 2013)

How long have you been training?

How often do you train?

How do you train?

I'm an advocate of Lyle, so would tend to agree with him.


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## leepsheep (Feb 12, 2016)

Hi,

I've been training on and off for a couple of years, but started training "properly" (eating clean, focusing on progressive overload) about 8 months ago on a strength routine.

I was training 3x a week doing starting strength/stronglifts, but I recently switched to an upper/lower bodybuilding split 4x a week.

I believe I train hard, I at the very minimum want to increase the weight each workout and beat the previous workouts reps no matter what.

During my 4-5 month bulk my lifts went from:
Bodyweight: 59kg - 63kg
Squat: 5x20kg - 4x80kg
Deadlift: 5x45kg - 5x100kg
Bench: 5x30kg - 4x62.5kg
Overhead Press: 5x20kg - 4x37kg
Chin ups: 12
Dips: 16

I really struggled improving my bench and overhead press towards the end of my bulk, failing on the last rep or two quite a lot.
However, I ended up just getting fat and there no was noticeable overall mass increase despite getting a lot stronger (neural gains?)

What bodyfat % do you think I am at right now?

Thanks!


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## ausmaz (Jul 14, 2014)

leepsheep said:


> Hi,
> 
> I've been training on and off for a couple of years, but started training "properly" (eating clean, focusing on progressive overload) about 8 months ago on a strength routine.
> 
> ...


 Hey mate, it seems like you are on the right track.... the main problem is, you just dont have much muscle mass.... like you've said previously if you cut now, you wont have much muscle to show for it.... however excessive calories will make you fat. I would personally say continue to eat at or around maintenance calories and keep training to get stronger.... you have plenty of novice gains left to exploit with your current strength levels, so hang in there..... just be patient! Muscle growth takes time and as long as your getting calories in, getting stronger and getting adequate recovery....there really isnt anything else you can do! All the best man...


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## UK2USA (Jan 30, 2016)

Manageable weight, good form. The right amount of workouts and sets per muscle group per week. And are you using any gear to help with the muscle gains? Maybe some test? But a lot more experienced advice here than mine.


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## zorro88 (Jan 5, 2016)

leepsheep said:


> Should I bulk or cut?
> 
> I did a very lean bulk for 5 months last year, gaining 0.5lb/week (4kg in total) while doing something similar to starting strength, my lifts increased a lot and I got much stronger.
> However, I just got fat. I didn't put on much noticeable muscle and my belly fat and especially my moobs got massive. I was advised to cut down.
> ...


 Tbh your a little chubby but nothing bad (not like myself atm lol) i'd take the advise of the guys of focusing on lifting heavier each week and try beat personal best's and the muscle will grow.


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## Dark sim (May 18, 2013)

leepsheep said:


> Hi,
> 
> I've been training on and off for a couple of years, but started training "properly" (eating clean, focusing on progressive overload) about 8 months ago on a strength routine.
> 
> ...


 I would change to hypertrophy training, if it is body composition you want to change.

Your typical rep range should be 6-12.

Eating "clean" doesn't mean you cannot put on fat. Calories ultimately determine this.


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## leepsheep (Feb 12, 2016)

Thanks for the advice all, really encouraging after hitting a slump for so long.

Can you recommend a good hypertrophy workout plan to follow?

I was losing about 1lb/week eating between 1600-1750 calories working out 4x a week and 2x HIIT cardio on top for the past 4-6 weeks.
If my maintenance calories are around 2000 then eating anywhere from 2000-2200 should be fine for now?

Thanks again


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## Dark sim (May 18, 2013)

leepsheep said:


> Thanks for the advice all, really encouraging after hitting a slump for so long.
> 
> Can you recommend a good hypertrophy workout plan to follow?
> 
> ...


 http://forums.lylemcdonald.com/showthread.php?t=1696

***
Mon: Lower
Squat: 3-4X6-8/3' (3-4 sets of 6-8 with a 3' rest)
SLDL or leg curl: 3-4X6-8/3'
Leg press: 2-3X10-12/2'
Another leg curl: 2-3X10-12/2'
Calf raise: 3-4X6-8/3'
Seated calf: 2-3X10-12/2'
Abs/low back: a couple of heavy sets apiece

Tue: Upper
Flat bench: 3-4X6-8/3'
Row: 3-4X6-8/3'
Incline bench or shoulder press: 2-3X10-12/2'
Pulldown/chin: 2-3X10-12/2'
Triceps: 1-2X12-15/1.5'
Biceps: 1-2X12-15/1.5'

For the Thu/Fri workouts either Repeat the first two or make some slight exercise substitutions. Can do deadlift/leg press combo on Thu, switch incline/pulldown to first exercises on upper body day. A lot depends on volume tolerance, if the above is too much, go to 2-3X6-8 and 1-2X10-12

Sets are work sets only, warm up appropriately.
****
A few notes:
1. This is an intermediate program. It is not appropriate for rank beginners (less than 6 months of consistent proper training) and tends not to be ideal for the very advanced (more than 3 years of proper training, near their genetic limits).

2. Folks who can't handle 4 days per week can use this on an alternating three day per week ABABA type of program so that everything gets hit every 5th day.
Monday: Upper body
Wednesday: Lower body
Friday: Upper body
Monday: Lower body
Wednesday: Upper body
Friday: Lower body

this can also be useful for older trainees since recovery is usually down a bit.

2a. For folks who don't do well training 2 days in a row (heavy leg days can be fatiguing for the upper day) and who can train on weekends, a schedule of
Mon: lower
Wed: upper
Fri: lower
Sat: upper

may be superior you get a day off after at least two of the workouts.

3. The program should be done across 6-8 week blocks of training. The first 2 weeks are submaximal run-ups where you are working below your best weight for the rep range. You might go something like 80-85% of best (e.g. if 100X8 is your best, go 80-85 lbsX8) in week 1 and then 90-95% of best in week 2. that means that sets will NOT be to failure and the workouts should be pretty comfortable.

For the next 4-6 weeks, the goal should be to make improvements as much as possible. When you get to the top end of the rep range on the first set with at least a rep or two to spare set add weight. Some may find it better getting all sets at the same weight before going up at the next workout.

3. People vary massively in how well they can handle weights across multiple sets. If you can do it, get all of the work sets at the same weight. If you can't, you are better off warming up to your heaviest weight on the first set and then pyramiding DOWN (e.g. lower weight on subsequent sets). Ascending pyramids suck.

4. After the 6-8 weeks is up, you MUST backcycle. If you want to change exericses, do it during the two week submaximal runup. Even if you want to keep the same exercises, you MUST backcycle to 80-85% of your previous best and runup at to numbers again. You MUST listen to me about this, if you try to keep hammering past that point, you will burn out and start backsliding.


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## Dark sim (May 18, 2013)

leepsheep said:


> Thanks for the advice all, really encouraging after hitting a slump for so long.
> 
> Can you recommend a good hypertrophy workout plan to follow?
> 
> ...


 http://www.myprotein.com/thezone/training/push-pull-legs-routine-best-mass-building-workout-split/

https://www.muscleandstrength.com/workouts/phul-workout


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## leepsheep (Feb 12, 2016)

Thanks for the help! Will definitely start one of those today.

@Dark sim: can you tell me what caloric intake I should aim for? slight deficit, maintenance, slight surplus?

@UK2USA: no mate, no gear.


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## Dark sim (May 18, 2013)

leepsheep said:


> Thanks for the help! Will definitely start one of those today.
> 
> @Dark sim: can you tell me what caloric intake I should aim for? slight deficit, maintenance, slight surplus?
> 
> @UK2USA: no mate, no gear.


 Maintenance or slight deficit for 3 months, then re-assess.

To tag, make sure when you wait for the drop down box to appear and click the name. It should highlight blue @leepsheep


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## dannythinx (Oct 4, 2014)

Keep calories the same.

lift heavier and longer in the gym

just my 2p


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## TIDALWAVE (Aug 30, 2015)

Dark sim said:


> I would change to hypertrophy training, if it is body composition you want to change.
> 
> Your typical rep range should be 6-12.
> 
> Eating "clean" doesn't mean you cannot put on fat. Calories ultimately determine this.


 Wouldn't upper lower phul-workout be ok?

Gets stronger and Hypertrophy

https://www.muscleandstrength.com/workouts/phul-workout

I pretty much in the same boat and started this?


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## GCMAX (Dec 31, 2013)

No offense but you seem to be weaker than most people. I'd suggest posting a full workout so we can analyze it. Mention weights used, how many sets, how many reps and the time it took.


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## Dark sim (May 18, 2013)

TIDALWAVE said:


> Wouldn't upper lower phul-workout be ok?
> 
> Gets stronger and Hypertrophy
> 
> ...


 Yes, but also bear in mind there is no perfect workout. Utilise all training methods, and cycle them in and out of your routines. Consistency and progression is key.


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## leepsheep (Feb 12, 2016)

GCMAX said:


> No offense but you seem to be weaker than most people. I'd suggest posting a full workout so we can analyze it. Mention weights used, how many sets, how many reps and the time it took.


 From yesterdays workout (Generic Bulking Routine that Dark sim linked):

Current bodyweight: 60kg
Bench Press (6-8 reps): 8x55kg, 6x55kg, 6x55kg
BB Row (6-8 reps): 8x50kg, 8x50kg, 8x50kg
Overhead Press (10-12 reps): 10x25kg, 9x25kg, 7x25kg
Lat Pulldowns (10-12 reps): 12x45kg, 12x45kg
Tri Extensions (12-15 reps): 15x10kg, 11x10kg
Preacher Curls (12-15 reps): 15x20kg, 13x20kg

Whole workout took around 50 minutes.
I've always struggled with the overhead press, the max I did was around 5x37.5kg back when I was doing a strength routine.

Before this I was doing something similar to starting strength, 3 sets of 5 on the big compound lifts and it took around 40-50 minutes.

I read that lifting 1x bodyweight on the bench, 1.5x on squat, and 2x on deadlift were very good starting points to break out of the beginner stages into intermediate. Is that about right?


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## GCMAX (Dec 31, 2013)

leepsheep said:


> From yesterdays workout (Generic Bulking Routine that Dark sim linked):
> 
> Current bodyweight: 60kg
> Bench Press (6-8 reps): 8x55kg, 6x55kg, 6x55kg
> ...


 Now I see where you are going wrong. In the session you posted you are working: Chest, triceps, lats and biceps and of those are doing very few sets on each.

Try to concentrate on 1 or 2 body parts per session that compliment each other.

eg;



Chest and triceps (session)


Lats and traps (session)


Quads and hamstrings (session)


If you want to increase muscle mass you have to go heavier, so cut down the amount of reps.

I found if you can get 5 reps on a weight, you should be able to get at least 1 rep on the next weight up which could mean an extra 5-10kg depending on the exercise.

I extracted some info from your current set to give you an idea what I mean;

*Bench Press*

30kg x 10reps (warmup)

40kg x 5 reps

50kg x 5 reps

60kg x as many as you can (if you get 5 reps go heavier)

50kg x as many as you can (dropset)

50kg x as many as you can (stamina and strength)

Flat or Incline Dumbbell Press

25kg x as many as you can (equalize strength in sides of body)

25kg x as many as you can (equalize strength in sides of body)

That's 8 sets of work involving chest which should make you ache and grow bigger. Maybe combine this with dumbbell or e-z bar skull crushers for triceps afterwards using similar increments and similar amount of sets. By the way, if you feel confident on a weight take it slower as the longer the time your muscle is under tension from the weight the more it will develop also.

*Forgot this.*

We all get afraid of a heavier weight from time to time but overcome by getting angry, curse out loud, stamp you feet, head-but a cupboard door, psyche your self up and when you are under that weight think of the thing that pisses you off the most in this world and put all your hate an rage into that bar and smash it into oblivion!


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## leepsheep (Feb 12, 2016)

GCMAX said:


> Now I see where you are going wrong. In the session you posted you are working: Chest, triceps, lats and biceps and of those are doing very few sets on each.
> 
> Try to concentrate on 1 or 2 body parts per session that compliment each other.
> 
> ...


 Thanks for the post.

The routine I just posted was a new one I started for the first time recommended by Dark sim - A hypertrophy routine from Lyle Mcdonald.

I went heavier (5 reps max) on a strength training program before and I didn't see any increase in mass, just fat gain as stated in the previous posts. Although that was only 3 sets max and not as much volume as the workouts recommended in this thread so maybe I wasn't hitting each part with enough frequency as you stated.


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## TIDALWAVE (Aug 30, 2015)

Dark sim said:


> Yes, but also bear in mind there is no perfect workout. Utilise all training methods, and cycle them in and out of your routines. Consistency and progression is key.


 After the 6-8 weeks is up, you MUST backcycle. If you want to change exericses, do it during the two week submaximal runup. Even if you want to keep the same exercises, you MUST backcycle to 80-85% of your previous best and runup at to numbers again. You MUST listen to me about this, if you try to keep hammering past that point, you will burn out and start backsliding.

Is this the same on all programmes?


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## Dark sim (May 18, 2013)

TIDALWAVE said:


> After the 6-8 weeks is up, you MUST backcycle. If you want to change exericses, do it during the two week submaximal runup. Even if you want to keep the same exercises, you MUST backcycle to 80-85% of your previous best and runup at to numbers again. You MUST listen to me about this, if you try to keep hammering past that point, you will burn out and start backsliding.
> 
> Is this the same on all programmes?


 Not necessary for all programmes, but as suggested will stop burn out. Ultimately you need to be listening to your body and how it feels.


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## ausmaz (Jul 14, 2014)

TIDALWAVE said:


> After the 6-8 weeks is up, you MUST backcycle. If you want to change exericses, do it during the two week submaximal runup. Even if you want to keep the same exercises, you MUST backcycle to 80-85% of your previous best and runup at to numbers again. You MUST listen to me about this, if you try to keep hammering past that point, you will burn out and start backsliding.
> 
> Is this the same on all programmes?


 Almost all strength programs will include a deload period.... imho they are essential.... the only time i would say they are not so necessary is maybe during a period of rehab style work, during a cutting phase or just submaximal work.... i tend to program them in at specific times ie week 6 test, week 7 deload....as i do not tend to 'listen' to my body very well....


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## GCMAX (Dec 31, 2013)

leepsheep said:


> Thanks for the post.
> 
> The routine I just posted was a new one I started for the first time recommended by Dark sim - A hypertrophy routine from Lyle Mcdonald.
> 
> I went heavier (5 reps max) on a strength training program before and I didn't see any increase in mass, just fat gain as stated in the previous posts. Although that was only 3 sets max and not as much volume as the workouts recommended in this thread so maybe I wasn't hitting each part with enough frequency as you stated.


 I saw Lyle Mcdonald, he looks like s**t and he's weak.










Response to this: "I went heavier (5 reps max) on a strength training program before and I didn't see any increase in mass, just fat gain"

Sounds like your diet isn't right either, not enough protein and not enough concentration/work on specific muscle groups.

Post some pics of yourself in a couple of months and by then you should have put on some noticeable muscle.


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## TIDALWAVE (Aug 30, 2015)

GCMAX said:


> *I saw Lyle Mcdonald, he looks like s**t and he's weak.*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 That has no relevance on whether he is knowledgeable!


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## Quackerz (Dec 19, 2015)

TIDALWAVE said:


> That has no relevance on whether he is knowledgeable!


 It would to a certain extent. It shows he cannot apply the information to himself at the very least.


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## Jonnyred85 (Apr 16, 2016)

TIDALWAVE said:


> Wouldn't upper lower phul-workout be ok?
> 
> Gets stronger and Hypertrophy
> 
> ...


 You should definitely do hypertrophy trainning, do full body workouts 3 times per week, do 2 sets to failure between 8-12 reps for each muscle, your body shape will change in no time doing full body dbery two days..

Anyway good luck☺


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