# On a cut , reduce calories or do cardio ?



## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

I have been in a bulk for a long time I need to lose some body fat .

I was going to reduce calories below maintenance . I spoke to am experienced lifter and competitor he said I don't want to reduce calories he has told me to stay at maintenance calories and do cardio instead . He said reducing calories will not cut it as at my age which is 50. Says i need to speed up my metabolism and the most efficient way of doing that is to do cardio tells me this way is the best way for me to keep my muscle gains and fuel my workouts whilst losing fat .

??


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## DLTBB (Jan 26, 2015)

Either. They'll both have the same effect as far as fat loss goes. The benefit of the latter is that you'll be able to eat more food and you'll be doing your heart a favour. But if it's just fat loss you're aiming for and you're not concerned about cardiovascular health or eating less, it doesn't matter.


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

DLTBB said:


> Either. They'll both have the same effect as far as fat loss goes. The benefit of the latter is that you'll be able to eat more food and you'll be doing your heart a favour. But if it's just fat loss you're aiming for and you're not concerned about cardiovascular health or eating less, it doesn't matter.


 This is what I told him exactly as you have said . He said to me yes if you was younger but at 50 years old I need to do the cardio to speed up my metabolism and the extra food will prevent muscle loss .

By the way I'm cycling 500mg test e surely that will help preserve muscle


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

big vin said:


> This is what I told him exactly as you have said . He said to me yes if you was younger but at 50 years old I need to do the cardio to speed up my metabolism and the extra food will prevent muscle loss .
> 
> By the way I'm cycling 500mg test e surely that will help preserve muscle


 Just ignore him.


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

Ultrasonic said:


> Just ignore him.


 Lol


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## DLTBB (Jan 26, 2015)

big vin said:


> Lol


 No really mate, ignore him.


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## DLTBB (Jan 26, 2015)

The third option would be doing both and reducing your calories to below maintenance AND adding cardio. You'd lose the fat at a faster rate and get improve your cardiovascular health. 500mg Test is going to preserve all of your muscle mass even if you're in a daily 500 calorie deficit and burning an additional 500 calories per day through cardio.


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

DLTBB said:


> The third option would be doing both and reducing your calories to below maintenance AND adding cardio. You'd lose the fat at a faster rate and get improve your cardiovascular health. 500mg Test is going to preserve all of your muscle mass even if you're in a daily 500 calorie deficit and burning an additional 500 calories per day through cardio.


 I'm coming from a bulk of 500 calories over maintenance , isn't it a bit drastic to go straight to 500 below maintenance ?


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

DLTBB said:


> No really mate, ignore him.


 His response is that as I'm 50 years old it's not that simple as my metabolism is slowing down .

Surely this is taken into account by my maintenance calories as if I was younger my maintenance calories would be higher .


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## DLTBB (Jan 26, 2015)

big vin said:


> I'm coming from a bulk of 500 calories over maintenance , isn't it a bit drastic to go straight to 500 below maintenance ?


 Not at all, 500 below maintenance is a very modest, non-aggressive deficit.


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## DLTBB (Jan 26, 2015)

big vin said:


> His response is that as I'm 50 years old it's not that simple as my metabolism is slowing down .
> 
> Surely this is taken into account by my maintenance calories as if I was younger my maintenance calories would be higher .


 His response is bro-science.


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

DLTBB said:


> Not at all, 500 below maintenance is a very modest, non-aggressive deficit.





DLTBB said:


> His response is bro-science.


 I'm going to start at around 200-300 below maintenance with some steady cardiovascular three or four times a a week for two weeks see where I'm at . If I'm not getting anywhere I will reduce more there is no rush .


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## DLTBB (Jan 26, 2015)

big vin said:


> I'm going to start at around 200-300 below maintenance with some steady cardiovascular three or four times a a week for two weeks see where I'm at . If I'm not getting anywhere I will reduce more there is no rush .


 Well if you're in a 300 calorie deficit for 7 days and you do 500 calories worth of cardio 3 times a week that's essentially the same as being in a 500 calorie daily deficit over the course of the week anyway and you'll lose around 1lb of fat a week after an initial whoosh of water weight. Judging from your previous posts you seem to think it's very easy to lose muscle. It's not. It's actually difficult to lose muscle while you're on gear unless you're practically starving yourself for prolonged periods. Don't mistake water and glycogen for actual muscle tissue. I'm in a 1,000 calorie deficit with cardio and less than 30 grams of carbs per day at the moment and I'm confident I'm not losing any muscle tissue.


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

DLTBB said:


> Well if you're in a 300 calorie deficit for 4 days and you do 500 calories worth of cardio 3 times a week that's essentially the same as being in a 500 calorie daily deficit anyway and you'll lose around 1lb a week. Judging from your previous posts you seem to think it's very easy to lose muscle. It's not. It's actually difficult to lose muscle while you're on gear unless you're practically starving yourself for prolonged periods. Don't mistake water and glycogen for actual muscle tissue. I'm in a 1,000 calorie deficit with cardio and less than 30 grams of carbs per day at the moment and I'm confident I'm not losing any muscle tissue.


 Yes that's true I do think it's easy to lose muscle . But bear in mind for the last 6 years I have been on trt and only done a couple of cycles . So most of the time in the last 6 years I have been natural . I have just done 12 week bulk on 500mg test e. My idea was to stay on the 500mg test for another 6-8 weeks whilst I do a cut then carry on the cut till I am where I want to be and drop back to my trt so there will be no complete crash .


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## DLTBB (Jan 26, 2015)

big vin said:


> Yes that's true I do think it's easy to lose muscle . But bear in mind for the last 6 years I have been on trt and only done a couple of cycles . So most of the time in the last 6 years I have been natural . I have just done 12 week bulk on 500mg test e. My idea was to stay on the 500mg test for another 6-8 weeks whilst I do a cut then carry on the cut till I am where I want to be and drop back to my trt so there will be no complete crash .


 A 500 calorie deficit is fairly modest even for somebody who is natural. That should lead to 1lb of fat loss a week with next to no muscle loss providing your training/protein intake/rest isn't absolutely horrendous. Just don't delude yourself in to thinking the water weight and glycogen you lose when you drop the calories and dose initially is muscle.


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

DLTBB said:


> Well if you're in a 300 calorie deficit for 7 days and you do 500 calories worth of cardio 3 times a week that's essentially the same as being in a 500 calorie daily deficit over the course of the week anyway and you'll lose around 1lb of fat a week after an initial whoosh of water weight. Judging from your previous posts you seem to think it's very easy to lose muscle. It's not. It's actually difficult to lose muscle while you're on gear unless you're practically starving yourself for prolonged periods. Don't mistake water and glycogen for actual muscle tissue. I'm in a 1,000 calorie deficit with cardio and less than 30 grams of carbs per day at the moment and I'm confident I'm not losing any muscle tissue.


 How much do you weigh , what do you have your maintenance calories at ?


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

DLTBB said:


> A 500 calorie deficit is fairly modest even for somebody who is natural. That should lead to 1lb of fat loss a week with next to no muscle loss providing your training/protein intake/rest isn't absolutely horrendous. Just don't delude yourself in to thinking the water weight and glycogen you lose when you drop the calories and dose initially is muscle.


 Good point about the water and glycogen loss.

My protein intake and training will be on point that's for sure


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## DLTBB (Jan 26, 2015)

big vin said:


> How much do you weigh , what do you have your maintenance calories at ?


 I've posted a run through of how the diet is set up in my log. My maintenance is around the low 3000's and I'm currently on around 250g P, 100g F and sub 30g C all from trace sources with 20-30 minutes of LISS daily. It's a Dave Palumbo inspired keto diet.


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

DLTBB said:


> Well if you're in a 300 calorie deficit for 7 days and you do 500 calories worth of cardio 3 times a week that's essentially the same as being in a 500 calorie daily deficit over the course of the week anyway and you'll lose around 1lb of fat a week after an initial whoosh of water weight. Judging from your previous posts you seem to think it's very easy to lose muscle. It's not. It's actually difficult to lose muscle while you're on gear unless you're practically starving yourself for prolonged periods. Don't mistake water and glycogen for actual muscle tissue. I'm in a 1,000 calorie deficit with cardio and less than 30 grams of carbs per day at the moment and I'm confident I'm not losing any muscle tissue.


 I'm very inexperienced at dieting I have always been bulking or maintaining for many years . Yes I'm big and strong and in relatively good shape but I have not had that muscle separation or a even an outline if a six pack for years . Whenever I have started a bit if a cut as soon as I lose the initial weight i think my muscles are shrinking them stop the cut lol .

Maybe it's time to really lean out and forget about the scales


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

DLTBB said:


> I've posted a run through of how the diet is set up in my log. My maintenance is around the low 3000's and I'm currently on around 250g P, 100g F and sub 30g C all from trace sources with 20-30 minutes of LISS daily. It's a Dave Palumbo inspired keto diet.


 How much do you weigh ?


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

DLTBB said:


> I've posted a run through of how the diet is set up in my log. My maintenance is around the low 3000's and I'm currently on around 250g P, 100g F and sub 30g C all from trace sources with 20-30 minutes of LISS daily. It's a Dave Palumbo inspired keto diet.


 250g protein =1000 calories

100g fats = 900 calorie

30g carbs = 120 calories

So you are on around 2000 calories a day god I think I would disintegrate at that


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## Sphinkter (Apr 10, 2015)

big vin said:


> I have been in a bulk for a long time I need to lose some body fat .
> 
> I was going to reduce calories below maintenance . I spoke to am experienced lifter and competitor he said I don't want to reduce calories he has told me to stay at maintenance calories and do cardio instead . He said reducing calories will not cut it as at my age which is 50. Says i need to speed up my metabolism and the most efficient way of doing that is to do cardio tells me this way is the best way for me to keep my muscle gains and fuel my workouts whilst losing fat .
> 
> ??


 What your mate doesn't realise is that by adding cardio you are increasing your maintenance calorie needs, so if you add cardio and continue to eat what was your maintenance cals then you'd actually be in a deficit. Exactly the same way as if you just reduced the calories..

people are stupid.


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

Sphinkter said:


> What your mate doesn't realise is that by adding cardio you are increasing your maintenance calorie needs, so if you add cardio and continue to eat what was your maintenance cals then you'd actually be in a deficit. Exactly the same way as if you just reduced the calories..
> 
> people are stupid.


 Yes that's what he meant that I would be in a deficit by adding the cardio. I then went on to say well why can't I just leave our the cardio and reduce calories to put me in the same calorie deficit as surely it would be the same .

He said because I'm 50 years old that just reducing the calories with cardio won't work . He says because of my age I need to do the cardio as that will burn the fat more efficiently whilst the non reduction in calories will give my body the extra nutrients it needs to prevent muscle loss and keep me going through my workouts .

He stresses that it's all got to do with age and the metabolism slowing down as people age .

In all fairness he has been a professional bodybuilder for many years winning many works titles whilst he was in his 20's and 30's . He is now 60 and still trains everyday and said when he dieted for competitions in the past he never did cardio he just reduced calories but went on to say he trained twice a day then and never needed to do cardio .He said as he has aged the cutting calories does not work for him anymore he said he needs to do the cardio to burn fat .


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## Cronus (Jun 5, 2012)

Just turn the fat into muscle no need to diet


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## Smitch (Dec 29, 2008)

DLTBB said:


> Well if you're in a 300 calorie deficit for 7 days and you do 500 calories worth of cardio 3 times a week that's essentially the same as being in a 500 calorie daily deficit over the course of the week anyway and you'll lose around 1lb of fat a week after an initial whoosh of water weight. *Judging from your previous posts you seem to think it's very easy to lose muscle. It's not. It's actually difficult to lose muscle while you're on gear unless you're practically starving yourself for prolonged periods*. Don't mistake water and glycogen for actual muscle tissue. I'm in a 1,000 calorie deficit with cardio and less than 30 grams of carbs per day at the moment and I'm confident I'm not losing any muscle tissue.


 I have had 3 weeks of zero training recently and very low food intake alongside loads of booze and coke and I'm surprised how little muscle I've lost, I've lost condition but not really size.


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## Smitch (Dec 29, 2008)

big vin said:


> Yes that's what he meant that I would be in a deficit by adding the cardio. I then went on to say well why can't I just leave our the cardio and reduce calories to put me in the same calorie deficit as surely it would be the same .
> 
> He said because I'm 50 years old that just reducing the calories with cardio won't work . He says because of my age I need to do the cardio as that will burn the fat more efficiently whilst the non reduction in calories will give my body the extra nutrients it needs to prevent muscle loss and keep me going through my workouts .
> 
> ...


 Didn't realise you were 50, always come across younger in your posts.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

The only relevant info from your friend is that he's found more cardio works better for him as he's got older. None of the 'logic' he's trying to use to explain this stands up to a second's scrutiny though.

Ironically I think the main cause of a small reduction in BMR with age is a reduction in muscle mass.


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## 31205 (Jan 16, 2013)

big vin said:


> His response is that as I'm 50 years old it's not that simple as my metabolism is slowing down .
> 
> Surely this is taken into account by my maintenance calories as if I was younger my maintenance calories would be higher .


 Look at some pics online of concentration camps. All those over 50s struggling to lose weight..... Not.


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## 31205 (Jan 16, 2013)

Smitch said:


> Didn't realise you were 50, always come across younger in your posts.


 So do you. You're 40 something aren't you? Have you down as around 30.


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## Jordan08 (Feb 17, 2014)

Wgat i do, 70% of the deficit comes from diet and 30% from cardio


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## Johnsmith1980 (Feb 8, 2016)

Cardio and diet imo


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## Mingster (Mar 25, 2011)

big vin said:


> His response is that as I'm 50 years old it's not that simple as my metabolism is slowing down .


 Well I'm 55 and I lost 17kg last year with no cardio until the last few weeks. Diet is the key.


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## 66983 (May 30, 2016)

Usually what I do is keep cal's at maintenance and up cardio, when weight loss stalls up cardio again (3 times week then 4 times, 5 times, etc eventually twice a day. Only when this stalls would I drop cal's, and only then by 100 or so.

For cardio I do treadmill incline walking with heart rate at 130bpm (I'm 44).

Last year I went from about 20% bf to 7.6% in 12 weeks on just trt dose Test E, started on 2500 cals and eventually ended up on 1800.

This year I will be doing DNP & T3 to hopefully speed things up.

Different things work for different people, some can just drop cals and the weight falls off, unfortunately I have to put the work in cardio wise.


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## arthuroarti (Nov 26, 2011)

DLTBB said:


> Well if you're in a 300 calorie deficit for 7 days and you do 500 calories worth of cardio 3 times a week that's essentially the same as being in a 500 calorie daily deficit over the course of the week anyway and you'll lose around 1lb of fat a week after an initial whoosh of water weight. Judging from your previous posts you seem to think it's very easy to lose muscle. It's not. It's actually difficult to lose muscle while you're on gear unless you're practically starving yourself for prolonged periods. Don't mistake water and glycogen for actual muscle tissue. I'm in a 1,000 calorie deficit with cardio and less than 30 grams of carbs per day at the moment and I'm confident I'm not losing any muscle tissue.


 DLTBB, how are you finding low carb cutting vs. higher carb? Despite water weight loss, do you think there is any advantage?


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## DLTBB (Jan 26, 2015)

arthuroarti said:


> DLTBB, how are you finding low carb cutting vs. higher carb? Despite water weight loss, do you think there is any advantage?


 I've only used this approach for a week so far but I've dropped a tremendous amount of fat and water already and feel satiated all the time too. So far so good but I will give a more thorough assessment further down the line.


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## arthuroarti (Nov 26, 2011)

DLTBB said:


> I've only used this approach for a week so far but I've dropped a tremendous amount of fat and water already and feel satiated all the time too. So far so good but I will give a more thorough assessment further down the line.


 Thanks DLTBB! This is again, the same old thing. Real people try low carb and report tremendous fat loss, while the "scientists", their studies and most fitness gurus find no difference between low carb and high carb as long as calories are the same. I know Thermodynamics is the Key, but there has to be something about going low carb that makes it so effective.

Is it just pure 24/7 low carb, or does your diet incorporate a weekly carb refeed etc. with increased calories for that day?


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## DLTBB (Jan 26, 2015)

arthuroarti said:


> Thanks DLTBB! This is again, the same old thing. Real people try low carb and report tremendous fat loss, while the "scientists", their studies and most fitness gurus find no difference between low carb and high carb as long as calories are the same. I know Thermodynamics is the Key, but there has to be something about going low carb that makes it so effective.
> 
> Is it just pure 24/7 low carb, or does your diet incorporate a weekly carb refeed etc. with increased calories for that day?


 It's Dave Palumbo's diet, you'll be able to find it online easily. It's basically less than 30g carbs a day from trace sources/veggies, high protein and high fat with a carb-based cheat meal once a week and regular low intensity cardio.


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## arthuroarti (Nov 26, 2011)

DLTBB said:


> It's Dave Palumbo's diet, you'll be able to find it online easily. It's basically less than 30g carbs a day from trace sources/veggies, high protein and high fat with a carb-based cheat meal once a week and regular low intensity cardio.


 Cheers DLTBB. I will look it up. Do you increase your calories a lot for that day you have the carb meal? Or just stick to low calorie all week?


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## DLTBB (Jan 26, 2015)

arthuroarti said:


> Cheers DLTBB. I will look it up. Do you increase your calories a lot for that day you have the carb meal? Or just stick to low calorie all week?


 Today's my cheat meal day so I've just had a bit of chocolate and will be having a roast dinner later, I'll still be in a deficit for the day. I'm trying to keep it tame or I'll get carried away.


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

Mingster said:


> Well I'm 55 and I lost 17kg last year with no cardio until the last few weeks. Diet is the key.


 Well that's obvious if you reduce calories weight will come down. But the guy says it's better to keep calories the same and do cardio to get you in deficit as the extra calories you keep will preserve muscle and get you through better workouts


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## Smitch (Dec 29, 2008)

sen said:


> So do you. You're 40 something aren't you? Have you down as around 30.


 Yep, 41 in June.

Act about 17 though. :lol:


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## simonboyle (Aug 5, 2013)

Cardio has other benefits and will be easier in my opinion.

And I find it more effective.

But both.

Clean up your diet and reduce caps a bit. Add cardio. Watch your body change.


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## Mingster (Mar 25, 2011)

big vin said:


> Well that's obvious if you reduce calories weight will come down. But the guy says it's better to keep calories the same and do cardio to get you in deficit as the extra calories you keep will preserve muscle and get you through better workouts


 Well, I disagree.


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

Mingster said:


> Well, I disagree.


 I tend to agree with you


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## G (Mar 11, 2013)

I do some cardio whether cutting or bulking just for general health and fitness.. Nothing excessive and my calorie intake is what determines if I'm trying to lose or gain weight.

My least favourite bit of my gym time but I think a little bit is time well spent.


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## Sphinkter (Apr 10, 2015)

Sparkey said:


> Usually what I do is keep cal's at maintenance and up cardio, when weight loss stalls up cardio again (3 times week then 4 times, 5 times, etc eventually twice a day. Only when this stalls would I drop cal's, and only then by 100 or so.
> 
> For cardio I do treadmill incline walking with heart rate at 130bpm (I'm 44).
> 
> ...


 You only have to put the work in cardio wise because you aren't reducing calories though not because that wouldn't work surely.

i do both personally, saves you having to a) have to do hours of boring AF cardio a week or b ) eat like a 90lb teenage girl.


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

Sphinkter said:


> You only have to put the work in cardio wise because you aren't reducing calories though not because that wouldn't work surely.
> 
> i do both personally, saves you having to a) have to do hours of boring AF cardio a week or b ) eat like a 90lb teenage girl.


 So do you drop calories below maintenance and do cardio ?


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## 66983 (May 30, 2016)

Sphinkter said:


> You only have to put the work in cardio wise because you aren't reducing calories though not because that wouldn't work surely.
> 
> i do both personally, saves you having to a) have to do hours of boring AF cardio a week or b ) eat like a 90lb teenage girl.


 Yes, I do it this way so I can eat more, my problem is I crave like mad on an evening.


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## SlinMeister (Feb 21, 2017)

Sparkey said:


> Yes, I do it this way so I can eat more, my problem is I crave like mad on an evening.


 Just wash your teeth after last meal.... On me it works...

But sometimes i wake up during the night to pee and i am hungry as hell... So i put down a shake then i go bed and i dream of Sushi and Cheesecake.


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## 66983 (May 30, 2016)

SlinMeister said:


> Just wash your teeth after last meal.... On me it works...
> 
> But sometimes i wake up during the night to pee and i am hungry as hell... So i put down a shake then i go bed and i dream of Sushi and Cheesecake.


 Diet coke for me takes the edge off, that and I make sure I have nothing naughty in the cupboards to eat, something like Coco pops and I would just fold and do the whole box.


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## Sphinkter (Apr 10, 2015)

big vin said:


> So do you drop calories below maintenance and do cardio ?


 I try and do cardio year round, at least a few sessions per week but aye I'll drop calories and up cardio when I'm trying to lose weight.



Sparkey said:


> Yes, I do it this way so I can eat more, my problem is I crave like mad on an evening.


 Get where you're coming from, although I'm always starving after cardio lol.


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## 66983 (May 30, 2016)

Sphinkter said:


> Get where you're coming from, although I'm always starving after cardio lol.


 I do my first lot of cardio fasted am, so I get to eat straight after the when I'm doing cardio twice a day the second lot is straight after training (5 days) so I down the protein shake then do the cardio, again I get to eat straight after I finish.


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## Madge105 (Feb 12, 2016)

DLTBB said:


> It's Dave Palumbo's diet, you'll be able to find it online easily. It's basically less than 30g carbs a day from trace sources/veggies, high protein and high fat with a carb-based cheat meal once a week and regular low intensity cardio.


 It is a properly interesting looking diet and pretty easy to follow too. Just need to try & adjust it slightly as I'm only 5'4 nowhere near 200lb but I'm sure it'll be easy to sort


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## DLTBB (Jan 26, 2015)

Madge105 said:


> It is a properly interesting looking diet and pretty easy to follow too. Just need to try & adjust it slightly as I'm only 5'4 nowhere near 200lb but I'm sure it'll be easy to sort


 Just adjust the portion sizes so you're in a calorie deficit mate, that's what I did. There are loads of examples online of how it can be tailored to fit people at different body weight.


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## Madge105 (Feb 12, 2016)

DLTBB said:


> Just adjust the portion sizes so you're in a calorie deficit mate, that's what I did. There are loads of examples online of how it can be tailored to fit people at different body weight.


 Gonna have a look later on ready to start it next week. I think the best looking thing about the diet is that it's full of things I actually like to eat, and like you've already said it leaves you feeling satisfied which is my biggest cutting worry, If I get hungry then I just want to cheat


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## arthuroarti (Nov 26, 2011)

DLTBB said:


> It's Dave Palumbo's diet, you'll be able to find it online easily. It's basically less than 30g carbs a day from trace sources/veggies, high protein and high fat with a carb-based cheat meal once a week and regular low intensity cardio.


 DLTBB, please look at this article. Just like I have said before, the studies and science do not support the low carb as the superior way to lose fat:

http://sciencedrivennutrition.com/truth-high-fat-diets/


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## DLTBB (Jan 26, 2015)

arthuroarti said:


> DLTBB, please look at this article. Just like I have said before, the studies and science do not support the low carb as the superior way to lose fat:
> 
> http://sciencedrivennutrition.com/truth-high-fat-diets/


 I know mate, I did a bit of reading myself prior to starting this diet. If I took every study I read as gospel I would never discovered half of the things I've tried which worked really well for me, it's all about self-experimentation - I'm 8 days in and can already tell this is working well for me because I can see a ton of difference in body composition and most importantly I feel satiated all the time which is always a massive issue for me when I'm using a regular diet.


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## Mingster (Mar 25, 2011)

arthuroarti said:


> DLTBB, please look at this article. Just like I have said before, the studies and science do not support the low carb as the superior way to lose fat:
> 
> http://sciencedrivennutrition.com/truth-high-fat-diets/


 Low carb isn't a superior method of dieting but a lot of people, myself included, diet this way. Personally, I do so because I find it far easier to cut carbs than I do protein and fats, and I feel so much better dropping grains from my diet.


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## arthuroarti (Nov 26, 2011)

DLTBB said:


> I know mate, I did a bit of reading myself prior to starting this diet. If I took every study I read as gospel I would never discovered half of the things I've tried which worked really well for me, it's all about self-experimentation - I'm 8 days in and can already tell this is working well for me because I can see a ton of difference in body composition and most importantly I feel satiated all the time which is always a massive issue for me when I'm using a regular diet.


 Same here mate! Studies are studies but what matters are the real life results and what people have experience with. Just out of curiousity, what are your approximate macros and calorie intake at the moment?


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## DLTBB (Jan 26, 2015)

arthuroarti said:


> Same here mate! Studies are studies but what matters are the real life results and what people have experience with. Just out of curiousity, what are your approximate macros and calorie intake at the moment?


 240-250g P, 100-120 F and under 25 C from veggies, nuts etc.


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## NorthernSoul (Nov 7, 2011)

Not read all the replies but for the subject of thread, I read a segment that this is what pro John hodges usually did. The usual maintenance calories, add in 20 minutes cardio per day. When fatloss stalls, bump it up to 30 minutes per day, ,then 45 minutes and you get the picture.


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## nWo (Mar 25, 2014)

big vin said:


> His response is that as I'm 50 years old it's not that simple as my metabolism is slowing down .
> 
> Surely this is taken into account by my maintenance calories as if I was younger my maintenance calories would be higher .


 If your metabolism has significantly diminished over the years, go have your thyroid checked.


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## nWo (Mar 25, 2014)

DLTBB said:


> I know mate, I did a bit of reading myself prior to starting this diet. If I took every study I read as gospel I would never discovered half of the things I've tried which worked really well for me, it's all about self-experimentation - I'm 8 days in and can already tell this is working well for me because I can see a ton of difference in body composition and most importantly I feel satiated all the time which is always a massive issue for me when I'm using a regular diet.


 Studies are helpful and all, but it's hilarious when people take them as the final word. Our bodies aren't all the same and there's no harm in trying something just to see how you respond.


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## DLTBB (Jan 26, 2015)

I'mNotAPervert! said:


> Studies are helpful and all, but it's hilarious when people take them as the final word. Our bodies aren't all the same and there's no harm in trying something just to see how you respond.


 Exactly. I doubt many of the subjects were on Test and Tren which tends to change the way you respond to things a little bit.. :whistling:


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## SlinMeister (Feb 21, 2017)

Keto diet should help you reduce hunger and hold less to no water at all but you will look flat.

Ok let's add 600 Test 300 Deca 350 Proviron and 30 Dbol ed.

I think we won't look flat at all 

This is something i would like to try! 

There was a Canadian guy that was running high Test and Deca cycles on Keto, his name was BLP. (Benoit la Pierre)

Oh regarding Keto diet Dave Palumbo style.... On the net there was also the drug regimen.


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

I'mNotAPervert! said:


> If your metabolism has significantly diminished over the years, go have your thyroid checked.


 I have no reason to think it's slowed down he just said that everyone's does with age


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## nWo (Mar 25, 2014)

big vin said:


> I have no reason to think it's slowed down he just said that everyone's does with age


 Typically because hormonal output can decline with age. If you haven't noticed anything though then you're likely fine, very sweeping general statement on his part.


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## mmichael (Dec 7, 2014)

I'm surprised no mentioned the 3rd or 4th options.

Deficit is Key of course no matter what. What I do is minimal cardio each day paired with a deficit. I only drop the calories by VERY small amounts every 2.5-3 weeks, but I lose a massive amount of weight each week in terms of fat. They Key is metabolism during a cut. Every WEEK on Monday I would do a Cheat day-eat over 6000+ calories of total junk (get my protein in of course). Tues-Sun go back to ur normal deficit + Cardio diet and notice how much weight u lose and fast. Ur metabolism will adjust and slow down again toward sat & Sun, but those other days are what counts the most and u will lose the most then. No need to starve urself eating -1500 calories in 2017 unless ur aiming to get insanely lean to a prep.

And the fourth option is little cardio, small deficit and some good DNP lol (my preference and will be doing Soon after my bulk  )

PS: the cheat day WILL NOT gain u excess weight in anyway other than maybe water. it's going to be so shocked by it that the vast majority of calories are going the pour through you very fast and not even be fully digested or used. The body needs to slowly adapt to higher cals, but when its tossed it that fast it can't take it and won't plow u on a extra 1-2 lbs like u think. It's just going to waste the vast majority of food for the day, but in return u get a satisfaction during ur cut each week mentally and a MASSIVE metabolism boost for over half a week that isn't cause by any drugs ur injecting or taking foreign.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

mmichael said:


> PS.:the cheat day WILL NOT gain u excess weight in anyway other than maybe water. it's going to be so shocked by it that the vast majority of calories are going the pour thrugh you very fast and not even be fully digested or used. The body needs to slowly adapt to higher cals, but when its tossed it that fast it can't take it and won't plow u on a extra 1-2 lbs like u think. It's just going to waste the vast majority of food for the day, but in return u get a satisfaction during ur cut each week mentally and a MASSIVE metabolism boost for over half a week that isn't cause by any drugs ur injecting or taking foreign.


 I don't think it's true that cutting calories somehow makes the body less efficient at absorbing food. I've never read anything to suggest this is the case, and from an evolutionary standpoint it sounds extremely unlikely.

What I think is far more likely is the following. A period of low calories leads to glycogen depletion. During the occasional hypercaloric day ('cheat day') a significant proportion of the excess energy will therefore be stored as glycogen, and therefore lead to less fat gain than might otherwise be expected. There may also be a positive effect on metabolic rate (by boosting leptin), although to what extent a single day is effective is something that would be debated.


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## Jordan08 (Feb 17, 2014)

big vin said:


> Well that's obvious if you reduce calories weight will come down. But the guy says it's better to keep calories the same and* do cardio to get you in deficit as the extra calories you keep will preserve muscle* and get you through better workouts


 It is opposite IME. Not from any study based statement. Why i state that maximum deficit should come from Diet, there are two reasons that i believe :-

a) Cardio or any additional exercise is also an additional stress on the body. More stress more free radicals

Secondly, when we try to heavily depend on cardio for fat loss, we ignore the fact that energy expenditure not a simple calculation of losing fat. We lose energy in form of all three macro nutrients. Protein being one of them even if you have optimum amount of protein in your diet, muscle breakdown will still be there (Even though minimum), i would not like to risk it and love to keep my gains.


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## mmichael (Dec 7, 2014)

Ultrasonic said:


> I don't think it's true that cutting calories somehow makes the body less efficient at absorbing food. I've never read anything to suggest this is the case, and from an evolutionary standpoint it sounds extremely unlikely.
> 
> What I think is far more likely is the following. A period of low calories leads to glycogen depletion. During the occasional hypercaloric day ('cheat day') a significant proportion of the excess energy will therefore be stored as glycogen, and therefore lead to less fat gain than might otherwise be expected. There may also be a positive effect on metabolic rate (by boosting leptin), although to what extent a single day is effective is something that would be debated.


 It's a MASSIVE metabolic boost that lasts for nearly a week. U need to remember man that the body gets used to everything to adapt. The more u diet, the more effecient it becomes at reserving the foods, at the same time it does NOT want to lose weight and the way it fights it is by SLOWing the metabolic process. U can keep dropping ur calories low and lower to lose the weight as the "change", but as a BB why would u eat -1500 calories when u can lose weight on 2500 by doing the above...It's protein sparing and more effecient, it's the way to cut in this age rather than starve urself. The thing is it only takes a huge calorie day to trigger a response for a huge meta boost, but it will only slow down over weeks as it adjusts.. I personally do it every week, the metabolic boost during the first week is the biggest and over the weeks it gets slower. I find it's not worth dieting past the weekend IMO and why not just start it over again. It's almost like the switching up the compounds every 6 weeks in a cycle to keep growing instead of running a cycle straight same dosage from week 1-16. U will yield greator results.

I've struggled with diet and I found this advice from YT channel. I was skeptical like u, but I gave it a shot and hell I tracked the weight loss for a month doing this and it was SOLID and that monday I always felt great. Sick pump, full of tasty food and something to look forward too on a s**t cut.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

mmichael said:


> U need to remember man that the body gets used to everything to adapt. The more u diet, the more effecient it becomes at reserving the foods, at the same time it does NOT want to lose weight and the way it fights it is by SLOWing the metabolic process.


 I wasn't questioning this point.

Far better informed people than I will debate the best approaches to refeeds though, ranging from single meals up to a couple of weeks. There is a lack of quality research applicable even to naturals let alone those assisted so it's not really possible to be definitive. Based on particularly what I've heard Lyle McDonald say I think if you looked for any study data proving a significant and prolonged elevation in leptin from a single refeed day you'd probably come up short though, so stating this as fact is probably overselling it. I'm very open to be proved wrong though.

Coaches vary in their approaches but FWIW I think the more evidence based natural coaches seem to be favouring longer refeeds, even if only two days vs one.

The fact that you've found an approach that works well for you is the main thing though.


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