# WORKOUT TIRDNESS



## Musclemad (Jan 20, 2004)

HI guys , HELP ,

I am currently doing one day on one day off , doing a split routine , useing 3 - 4 excercises per body part , I stack up the weights and do final set to failure , by this I am seriously tired , eating loads of protein and meals , seemd to have hit a plateu , considering gear to crank me up to the next level! - any thought guys - feel Im ready to grow


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Are you getting alot of sleep?

You might be hitting it too hard too.


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## Cookie (Sep 14, 2009)

Try using some smelling salts between sets to keep your head clear and focused.


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

ONE SMART COOKI said:


> Try using some smelling salts between sets to keep your head clear and focused.


Yea and have your workout partner slap you right before your set. 

I think you need more sleep. Maybe your body clock is thrown off from your work schedule. Change your routine around. You might be overtraining a tad.


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## Cookie (Sep 14, 2009)

winger said:


> Yea and have your workout partner slap you right before your set.
> 
> Nothing wrong with getting slapped,my training partner used to punch meit worked everytime.


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

ONE SMART COOKI said:


> That is why I pick the smallest guy to spot me.


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## Killerkeane (Nov 9, 2003)

hehe, good bet wingy, but he'll have the last laugh after you get the barbell stuck on your chest and you can't get it off.


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

Been there I was doing heavy db inclines and on my last rep called to a guy for a forced rep and he pushes my forarms in and you guessed it. Both db's fell on my mouth. I was doing tricept extensions at that point. Why oh why didn't he just grab the elbows/tricepts? Chipped a tooth and had a fat lip. I almost came up swinging but he didn't mean to do it.


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## megatron (Apr 21, 2004)

My workout partner is biger than me, and he punches really hard


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## Killerkeane (Nov 9, 2003)

man winger, that is unlucky that had to happen, but at least you had that sense of dominance about you, that if you wanted to k.o him then you could have


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## GREENLANTERN (Jun 20, 2004)

Your workout partner sounds like my Mrs....shes big and punches hard too!


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

Killerkeane said:


> man winger, that is unlucky that had to happen, but at least you had that sense of dominance about you, that if you wanted to k.o him then you could have


Oh my gosh I was so mad. I even get mad just thinking about it and that was over 20 years ago. Its amazing what a good dentist can do. lol  I could have mopped him up but what would that get me.....................2-3 years.  I never gave the weight. 85 lb dbs. Try stopping those bad boys. I actually did 100 lb db's for 6 on the incline yesturday. Felt great. All time best is 7 so I am right there.



GREENLANTERN said:


> Your workout partner sounds like my Mrs....shes big and punches hard too!


How big is big?  D double D


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## Sychokid (Jun 29, 2004)

Start training each muscle more frequently and lighten up with the failure, perhaps take around 7-9 days off as well

Jon


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

Sychokid said:


> Start training each muscle more frequently and lighten up with the failure, perhaps take around 7-9 days off as well
> 
> Jon


No way I only lift 18 minutes a day 5 days a week. I hold back for 1 heavy set and I am done with that excercise. Still love ya. I do take time off but only because of the wife......................


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## Sychokid (Jun 29, 2004)

winger said:


> No way I only lift 18 minutes a day 5 days a week. I hold back for 1 heavy set and I am done with that excercise. Still love ya. I do take time off but only because of the wife......................


Taking time off will allow for better gains in the future  Dont think of it as rest, think of it as "stragetic deconditioning" time

Jon:cool:


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

Sychokid said:


> Start training each muscle more frequently and lighten up with the failure, perhaps take around 7-9 days off as well
> 
> Jon


Thinking it through. If you are overtraining then this will be perfect.


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## Sychokid (Jun 29, 2004)

winger said:


> Thinking it through. If you are overtraining then this will be perfect.


Think of it like this, Whats essential for muscle growth?

A increase in microtruama...chronic microtrauma so to say 

This happens from progressive loading, when training really heavy all the time, maximum microtruama is applied, and its very hard to add more, since you have to wait 7 days or more before training the muscle again, and generally each week you only go up a rep or a few lbs in weight. Not enough microtruama.

Taking time off resets the muscles conditioning to microtrauma, so it can grow from lighter traces of microtrauma again and still get awesome results. Then you can increase the weight again and are now able to increase weight at a great pace.

I love stragetic deconditioning, imo its essential for a great hypertrophy program 

Jon:cool:


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

Lift weights your whole life with no injuries and always but always train heavy.  Dont beat a dead horse.


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## Sychokid (Jun 29, 2004)

winger said:


> Lift weights your whole life with no injuries and always but always train heavy.  Dont beat a dead horse.


what? lol

Remember, new research has been/is being done. Lifting heavy isn't always the answer, microtrauma is! This comes from all sorts of lifting

Jon:cool:


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

I take time off but usually due to Vacations, sickness, visit relatives and just sometimes I dont feel like training.

Knowing my luck, I would take time off then get sick and have a Vacation lined up all at the same time.


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

Sychokid said:


> sorts of lifting
> 
> Jon:cool:


I sort out my lifting


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## Sychokid (Jun 29, 2004)

winger said:


> I sort out my lifting


By sorts of lifting i mean, high reps, low reps, high volume, drop sets, etc, any type of lifting provides microtruama in the muscle

Jon:cool:


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## Sychokid (Jun 29, 2004)

Oh yes, another benefit I can remember from taking time off.

Lets have a look at Myosin Heavy Chain Isoforms here.

As we know there are 3 types (I, IIA, IIX) I being containing the lowest threshold/slowest conctraction and IIX being vice cersa. IIA is inbetween.

These fibers are based upon the speed/velocity of a movement and the weight/total load. Meaning, during fast concentrics/eccentrics, more fast twitch (IIA/IIX) fibers are going to be involved. Anyhow, seeing that type IIX are the fastest conctracting MHC, they also contain the best potential for hypertrophy/strength. Keep in mind these isoforms can get damaged (not work as efficiently), have there characteristics change (fast twitch acts like slow twitch isoforms), or SOMETIMES even the isoform itself may change.

Anyway with that being said, when weight training, since the weights are relatively heavy so the acceleration of the movement is pretty slow, mainly IIA fibers are recruited as motor units (I and IIX get converted/changed/etc). IIA fibers are excellent, but IIX hold the best potential as I said early.

When detraining/taking time off, Myosin heavy Chain isoforms go from type IIA to dominatly IIX. This is an excellent fine, why this happens I think has something to do with survival. When outrunning something, you obviously need the fastest of these MHC, so I guess that may be one of the reasonings for this.

IN any event, now when you start training again, MHC-IIX are higher! Even when you train again and more isoforms become IIA, there will now be a bigger ratio of IIX fibers despite the dominant IIA fibers.

One of the many benefits from taking time off 

Jon


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Jon, I have heard of fibers recruiting or changing somewhat but you are not saying that there is fibers splitting or making more fibers are you?

This seems to float around (the internet) and there is no way of proving that as there are massive numbers of fibers and there is no way of counting them all and recounting them again.

Now HGH on the other hand!

Calves are a great example of type 2 fast twitch. They have alot of fascia due to weight bearing and moving the body fwd. Fat people (men and women) usually have massive calves. I attribute that to body weight (lifting heavy) lugging themselves favoring their calves.

Hey, their calves never get a rest and are still massive.


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## Sychokid (Jun 29, 2004)

hackskii said:


> Jon, I have heard of fibers recruiting or changing somewhat but you are not saying that there is fibers splitting or making more fibers are you?
> 
> This seems to float around (the internet) and there is no way of proving that as there are massive numbers of fibers and there is no way of counting them all and recounting them again.
> 
> ...


hyperplasia, scientists are still wondering if this can occur in humans, but it IS proven to occur in other mammals! Its honestly too heard to count all the muscle fibers in a human to tell, plus the amount of fibers vary from person to person like you said.

I personally believe in hyperplasia. I also believe in fascia stretching (load stretching), Infact I believe fascia stretching can cause hyperplasia . I have articles on this if your interested.

In any event, The suggestion of MHC isoforms was just to support taking time off more frequently.

take care

Jon:cool:


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

I dont think there is actually hyperplasia with the exception of using HGH.

Some guys have tried this and they have not proven it nor have the guys looked like they have accomplished it.

Fascia stretching has been around earlier than Arnold and this just adds area for the muscle to fill out to.

Fashia is nothing more than a fiber that surrounds the muscles like a salami sack. The muscle has no where to go but become more dense. If you stretch out the fascia then there is more room for the muscle to fill out too.

Example. Put 2 pillows in 1 pillowcase. Put 1 pillow in 1 pillowcase.

Think of the pillowcase as fascia. The 2 pillows would fill out a bigger pillowcase but beings that the 2 pillows are in the same case the pillowcase will be firmer but not much bigger.

That is the idea about the fascia.

The most fascia is in the calves. This is because this needs the most support due to weight bearing. Calves have alot of type 2 muscle fibers too.


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## Sychokid (Jun 29, 2004)

hackskii said:


> I dont think there is actually hyperplasia with the exception of using HGH.
> 
> Some guys have tried this and they have not proven it nor have the guys looked like they have accomplished it.
> 
> ...


I still think the fascia can expand, rather then thinking of it like a pillow sheet, think of it like an expandable substance, like a rubber band kinda.

I know dogcrapp training is very fond of load stretching. Also check out the hyperplasia magazine over at abcbodybuilding

Jon:cool:


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

I like stretching the fascia when training. I think there is good use for it. I do it for tricepts and get really sore.

Are you saying that you can split muscle so you can have more fibers for growth?


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## Sychokid (Jun 29, 2004)

winger said:


> I like stretching the fascia when training. I think there is good use for it. I do it for tricepts and get really sore.
> 
> Are you saying that you can split muscle so you can have more fibers for growth?


yes, in basic terms, a muscle fiber may be able to split

Jon:cool:


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Easy Sychokid, this is purely speculation and no scientific proof to support this.

I have been lifting for 28 years and this has been around when I was a kid.

You can not make this claim to be honest.

I will buy into this if you show me facts.

There are soo many variables that this cant be proven, too many fibers to count first of all.


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

Sychokid said:


> yes, in basic terms, a muscle fiber may be able to split
> 
> Jon:cool:


Well Rory Ledamyer (sp) tried that about 15 years ago by doing massive reps. About 100 and entered into the Mr. Olympia and lost. I trained with him. He pushed more weight than any guy I have ever seen. Then he got on this 100 rep kick. There is no proof of this.  This is some old stuff most people have forgot about it. It just seems like diets and workouts just keep on cycling around every 20 or so years and pop up again to make money. Who are the biggest guys in the world? The guys that push the most weight, or the guys with the best chemists backing them. All the big boys push heavy and avoid overtraining.


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## Sychokid (Jun 29, 2004)

winger said:


> Well Rory Ledamyer (sp) tried that about 15 years ago by doing massive reps. About 100 and entered into the Mr. Olympia and lost. I trained with him. He pushed more weight than any guy I have ever seen. Then he got on this 100 rep kick. There is no proof of this.  This is some old stuff most people have forgot about it. It just seems like diets and workouts just keep on cycling around every 20 or so years and pop up again to make money. Who are the biggest guys in the world? The guys that push the most weight, or the guys with the best chemists backing them. All the big boys push heavy and avoid overtraining.


yeh, I dont see any reason why working with high reps would do much for hyperplasia, maybe get the Oxidative Phosphorylation system involved and cause some Capillaries density increase.

Hyperplasia from the science we know about seems to occur from load stretching if it does occur. There was a study on birds where weights were attached to there wings for awhile. Ill try to dig up the study if you guys never seen it

Jon:cool:


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

Well I would like to read it.  Putting weights on bird wings. Sounds kinda mean.


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## the red balloon (Aug 2, 2004)

the bird wing study is interesting but I guess for non strung-out humans it means doing nothing unless you're talking about static muscle-training like Charles Atlas used to do.

!00 reps? Don't knock it until you've tried it!

Start with squats!


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