# All you need to know about TREN and how to use it effectively



## 66983 (May 30, 2016)

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Pretty good thread I found on Tren. 
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http://forums.steroid.com/anabolic-steroids-questions-answers/508157-atominis-all-you-need-know-about-tren-how-use-effectively-thread.html
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All you need to know about TREN and how to use it effectively 
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So, I have seen a lot of threads lately with questions about trenbolone . We literally are getting at least 4+ threads a day with questions regarding tren . I figure we need a good solid tren thread here for newbies and experienced people alike where we can all come to a singular source to get information on it. I absolutely love tren, and have been using it for 5 years straight. Testosterone and trenbolone are the ONLY two anabolic steroids I ever use, and ever will use. So I figure that my experience and knowledge on it should lend to answering people's questions and curiosity concerning it. This thread isn't a trenbolone profile thread. It is more along the lines of how to use it practically in the real world, and what to expect out of it, and how you can make it a versatile compound. A 'profile' is merely an article that provides the raw data and statistics on a compound as opposed to actual into on real world practicality.

I'd like to start off by pointing in the direction of the actual Tren profile for the purpose of familiarizing yourself with the compound first: http://www.steroid.com/Trenbolone.php

I know that upon first glance tren seems to freak out and scares everyone (it did with me when I first read about it)... but then again, upon first glance didn't everything in the AAS world scare you?

As I mentioned, I've been running tren for 5 years in literally every single cycle consistently. I think I threw it into my 3rd or 4th ever cycle and I instantly became addicted. I've found it to be the best bang for your buck. It really is an incredible compound, my favorite by far. All other compounds aside from test (primo, anavar , deca , EQ, turinabol , and ESPECIALLY winny and pretty much every single other AAS out there) goes into the 'useless pile of s**t bin' for me. The only exception I make to that is Masteron (Drostanolone), but that's about it. As I type this, I am currently on 800mg/week of Tren Ace, though I think this will be the only time I will ever run tren this high. I don't think there's any need to run stuff that high, especially tren, if you're just doing this recreationally and not competing or whatever. I will explain this in more detail in a second.

Trenbolone is extremely versatile compound that can be used for both cutting AND bulking. For some reason, for years people have been parroting around this line of junk about tren being good only for cutting/leaning out/hardness. This is absurd, and if someone is telling you this - they do not fully understand the capabilities of this compound. What you have to remember here is that trenbolone is a VERY strong compound (5x as strong as testosterone), it is the strongestconventional anabolic steroid out there. Trenbolone's anabolic rating is 500. By comparison, Testosterone's anabolic rating is 100 (testosterone is the standard by which all other anabolic steroids are measured against, being that it is the original anabolic steroid by which all others are essentially derived from). That means to get the effect of 100mg of tren, you would need 500mg of test. To get the same effect of 500mg of tren you'd need 2,500mg(!!!) of test, to get the same effect of 1,000mg of tren from testosterone, you'd need 5,000mg of test, etc. GET THE POINT? So, with that being said, I think that there is no need to be running tren at very high doses (especially if it is your first time running trenbolone), and the reason why a lot of people say "be careful, a lot of people can't take the sides" is because these people are running tren at unnecessarily high dosages. They're treating it like test, or any other much weaker compound. Tren is in a class all on its own! People need to realize this.

The fact of the matter is that people pump out arbitrary numbers when it comes to doses. Why do people tell others to run '500mg of test'? Why 400mg of tren? Why 300 mg of this, and 250 mg of that? Why? Because they don't know. Most of the time these numbers are arbitrarily made up. What I am presenting here is this: closely analyze the characteristics and stats of a particular compound (in this case we are looking at tren), and develop your cycle and dosing protocol based on the stats! There is no need to run 500mg of tren on your first tren cycle. The reason why I would reccomend far less than that is because when you look at trenbolone's characteristics and see that it is 5x as anabolic as testosterone, you see that it is evident you don't need very much to make dramatic physique changes.

For a first-time tren run, I believe one should be able to garner some very great gains off of 100mg test prop and 250mg tren per week (remember, you'd need 1,250mg test to achieve what 250mg tren does). Hell, 300-400mg tren per week produces great results with still minimal undesireable sides. And there is absolutely no reason to increase tren dosages with every tren cycle you do. For example, if you do 250mg on your first tren cycle there is absolutely no need to think you'll need to run 500mg on the next one, and then 750mg on your 3rd run, and so on and so forth. That's just plain stupidity. Remember, this beautiful compound is so strongthat you don't need huge doses to elicit great gains, and the lower your dose is, the less undesireable side effects for the most part. And the beauty with tren is that it is so strong on a mg for mg basis that if you run it at a low dose, you're not losing out on your gains! You don't need a whole lot. Tren is one of those compounds where a little goes a long way. That is my personal saying and rule for tren. Remember that.

Now, trenbolone is a 19-nor steroid and as such belongs to the class of 19-nor steroids (along with nandrolone , AKA deca). This makes it a progestin, and it is unable to aromatize into estrogen, nor does it convert into DHT. What does this mean? No bloating, no risk of estrogen-related gyno, no blood pressure skyrocketing from water retention. You can expect very lean nice gains with tren. From week to week, with an immaculate diet and trenbolone in the mix, you will literally see your body change as the days go by. Unfortunately, due to its nature as a 19-nor progestin, it causes some undesireable potential side effects.

First lets discuss what a progestin (AKA progestogen) is. A progestin is essentially a derivative of the steroid hormone progesterone, and as such it has progestogenic effects in the body. This is much like something that is a DHT derivative, and therefore has very strong DHT effects (think about DHT-derived AAS). Progesterone is a hormone involved in the female menstrual cycle and pregnancy, and is not something that should be found in men. One of progesterone's purposes is so signal the pituitary gland to produce and secrete a protein hormone called prolactin. Prolactin is another hormone which serves a purpose in pregnant women, and it binds to receptors in breast tissue to signal lactation. This presents a couple of problems for men, which leads to the side effects from tren that are progesterone-based.

The first undesireable side effect commonly discussed is 'tren-dick'. Basically, it is erectile dysfunction resulting from the use of trenbolone due to its progestogenic effects and prolactin secretion. Prolactin has an EXTREME suppressive effect on the libido. Related effects to this include anorgasmia (inability to achieve orgasm), which is again a direct result of increased prolactin levels in the body. The second undesireable side effect is gyno. Yes, gyno is a potential risk with trenbolone even though it does not aromatize into estrogen. This is once again due to prolactin. In addition to prolactin causing lactation, it can and will cause breast tissue to form. This is known as prolactin-related gyno (as opposed to estrogen-related gyno).

In order to deal with these side effects, I highly reccomend the use of a prolactin antagonist. One of the three: Cabergoline (my favorite, and the one I use exclusively), Pramiprexole (a new prolactin antagonist on the market), and Bromocriptine. Vitamin B6 has also displayed strong anti-prolactin qualities. It is also well known that one can eliminate the risk of prolactin-related gyno by controlling estrogen levels and maintaining a low level. This is partially true, as estrogen has an upregulating effect on the progesterone receptor in breast tissue (in layman terms, it makes the receptors more excitable to progesterone). As a result, it is very possible that a very very high estrogen level may upregulate progesterone receptors to the point where even a very small amount of prolactin can set off prolactin-induced gyno. My personal preference: take Cabergoline (or one of the prolactin antagonizers) anyways. Although you may be able to eliminate prolactin-related gyno by keeping estrogen levels under control - it does NOT eliminate or prevent prolactin secretion from the pituitary. This is only a control for the gyno issue. A good prolactin antagonizer such as Prami or Caber run during a tren cycle will prevent any potential prolactin secretion in the first place by operating through dopaminergic pathways.

I always run cabergoline at 1mg per week while using tren. No exceptions.

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS ABOUT TRENBOLONE

Q: I keep hearing that tren is a 'harsh compound'. What does this mean and what can I do about it?

A: Tren is often describe as a harsh compound because of its propensity to carry certain side effects not seen at all in any other compounds. These include: night sweats, insomnia, sleep disturbances, increased body heat associated with sweating, and diminished cardiovascular ability. The other reason is because it not only carries a strong anabolic rating, but it also carries a very strong androgenic rating. This means that there is the possibility of increased aggression and irritability. Though I have personally not experienced this, I would say that if you are a hot head when you're not on anything, then you will most likely be affected in such a way when you use tren. If you plan on using it, make sure to keep a level head at all times and be aware of yourself and all of your actions. And most of all: maintain proper discipline and self control when necessary. Most of these side effects are dose dependant and everyone has different tolerances. As such, should you follow a moderate or low dosing protocol with tren as I outlined above, these side effects shouldn't be a gigantic issue.

Q: Tren diminishes your capacity for cardio? What can I do about it?

Yes, it does and is a frequently reported side effect that seems largely dose-dependant (much like everything in this game). This is due to the prostaglandin F2Alpha increase that tren is responsible for. Prostaglandin increases as a result of trenbolone results in bronchial constriction. It is also speculated that this is the reason for the tren cough occasionally seen when injecting. Unfortunately there is nothing I know of that counteracts the reduced cardio effect from tren. But like I said, it is only prominent with high doses. I can only SPECULATE that perhaps a bronchodilator, such as clenbuterol or ephedrine, could assist in alleviating the bronchial constriction. The numbers I am about to give out are not to be taken as gospel, but it has occurred to me that anything under 300mg per week shouldn't really see diminished cardiovascular ability. At the very least, at that dose it would be extremely minimal. Again, everyone reacts differently. Prior to this cycle i'm on now (800mg/week), I only ever used tren at no more than 300-400mg per week. And I did a full out 13 kilometer ruck march once (with no work-up training for it) with absolutely no problems and I was on a tren cycle at the time. As i've mentioned, I gather that the cardio suppressive effect from tren really only starts to manifest itself at higher doses. At 250mg per week of tren, you likely won't notice a thing. At 900mg per week, you'll probably get winded just going up a flight of stairs. The diminished cardiovascular ability does leave with the discontinuation of trenbolone.

Q: Can I run tren alone?

NO. Testosterone at least in some dose must be run with it in order to maintain proper normal bodily functions that testosterone is responsible for. Trenbolone is a very strong compound, and is highly suppressive on your natural testosterone production. Trenbolone, although a very strong anabolic and androgen, does not perform the same way testosterone does in other important areas in the body. Always run testosterone with anything you plan to use.

Q: Can I run tren on my very first cycle?

You can do anything you want, but I hightly advise AGAINST IT. I do know people who have used trenbolone on their first cycle with no problems, but they are the exception - not the rule. Trenbolone, as mentioned above, carries side effects that are not seen with any other anabolic steroid. When a first-time beginner user encounters some of the side effects from tren, it will be very difficult for him to understand what is happening and why, and how to deal with it. Ultimately, you will end up hurting yourself. Tren is a compound for the intermediate and experienced user ONLY. How many cycles in should you throw tren in, depends on you, your understanding, your education on the matter, and your experience. There is no general rule for how many cycles you require under your belt before running tren. I have seen some brilliant people who grasped the knowledge of AAS so well that they ran tren on their second cycle and coped quite well. Again: the exception - not the rule.

It is ideal to run testosterone only for your first cycle, as testosterone is the basis by which all other anabolic steroids come from. It is THE original anabolic steroid. It only makes sense considering that your body ALREADY produces testosterone, and that you are merely putting more of something your body already produces inside you. Therefore it stands to reason that should you react adversely to testosterone, then chances are you will react worse to other anabolics. We use testosterone as a baseline by which all other anabolic steroids are measured, and we use it to gauge our body's natural reactions to it seeing as though it is the #1 anabolic steroid our bodies are already used to (after all, it is what our body already produces). After your first cycle or 2 (or 3 or more) of test-only, then you can branch out into other compounds and manipulate and test out different cycling techniques.

Q: Can I run tren higher than test? Is this safe?

Yes and yes. In fact, I very much prefer running the tren higher than test. Ideally, this is what you want to do! I used to run my tren cycles at 400/week of test prop with 300/week of tren. Then I eventually realized, why not just make tren the primary anabolic and leave test for purely maintaining normal bodily function? That way, you totally avoid the estrogen related sides. No risk of bloat, no gyno , no estrogen, no SHBG from high test levels (trenbolone does not have a high affinity for SHBG - nowhere near test). Just solid lean hard gains. I highly reccomend running tren higher than test, and keep test at TRT doses (100mg per week). There are some who are advising against this practice, but I find it funny that they provide no reason behind it. It is not as if the trenbolone acts like pac-man in your blood, eating up all of your testosterone. You will be fine, and this is the ideal method of running tren - not to say running test at a hefty dose isn't a bad thing, however... if that is what you wish to do, then so be it.

Q: Tren carries the risk of gyno as well? Is this true? What can I do about it?

Yes, and this is explained above in the main body of this post. Please scroll up and read what can be done to prevent/eliminate it.

Q: What are the different forms of tren? What is better? What should I use?

Tren is primarily and most popularily found in these 3 formats:

- Trenbolone Acetate
- Trenbolone Enanthate 
- Trenbolone Hexahydrobencylcarbonate

The difference between the 3 are simply release times and half-lives. There is no solid answer I have on 'what is better' and which one you should use. These are things you must determine for yourself. Tren Ace is the most commonly used format. I can definitely say that the benefit to the Acetate variant is that due to its short half life, you can start and stop your cycle quicker in case you encounter any highly undesirable side effects, and as a result wish to halt immediately. With the Enanthate variant, it takes 2 weeks to fully clear your system. Decide accordingly

Q: What's this 'tren cough' I hear so much about? What can I do to stop/prevent it?

Tren cough is the result of nicking a vein in the injection site and getting some of the oil in the vein. Now, you'll get the cough from ANY compound when that happens - not just tren. However, tren causes a far worse cough than any others when this happens. Some theories postulated about what causes the cough are:

- The solvents (Benzyl Alcohol and Benzyl Benzoate) in the solution. This to me does not make sense, as every other injectable compound contains these solvents, and the coughing fits that may occur from other injectables are nowhere near as bad as the cough that results from trenbolone.
- It has been suggested that the binders in the trenbolone solution are a cause of the cough once the oil enters a vein. For those of you who do not know, in the chemistry world a binder is a material used to bind separate particles together, to give an appropriate consistency, or facilitate adhesion. This theory doesn't hold very much weight to me considering nearly all drugs in solutions contain binders as well - not just trenbolone.
- It has been postulated that the cough is the result of the prostaglandin increasing effects of tren, but it is also largely a mystery. I am, however, more likely to believe that this is the more fitting theory. BUT, though the prostaglandin increase from trenbolone is a known fact, this mechanism is highly unlikely to occur immediately upon injection, as that is too fast a time scale for the proposed mechanism. Prostaglandin increases do not and can not occur within minutes to produce an acute severe cough. The prostaglandin increases from trenbolone result in the diminished cardiovascular ability i've already discussed, and this is a result of prostaglandin increases over days and weeks - it is not possible for this to cause tren-cough upon the very first injection of someone's cycle. Thus, it must be the result of something unique to trenbolone compounds entering the blood stream and traveling to the lungs for the cough to be manifested that quickly and that harshly compared to when this happens with other compounds.
- My own personal theory? Personally, I believe it is the trenbolone molecule itself that when injected into a vein, causes the irritation in the lungs to a far greater degree than other compounds. Why is this and what is the attribute in the tren molecule that would give it this characteristic? I don't know. This is just my own speculation based on deductive reasoning after looking at all of the other theories out there.

To date, the tren-cough and why it is worse with tren compared to any other compound is still largely a mystery in the world. We still do not know with 100% certainty what the ultimate culprit is. Perhaps at some time in the future it will be discovered. All we know so far is that it is generally the result of the oil getting into a vein when injecting.

The cough, depending on how much oil has seeped into a vein (i.e. nicked a vein, passed through a vein on the way into the muscle, or literally injected right into it), should last anywhere from a minute to 5 minutes. The severity of the cough can range from a mild little irritating dry-throat esque type of cough to a major coughing fit. I have had both. The cough typically feels like there is something itching in your throat/chest/lung area, and mich akin to a dry throat feeling and something in your lungs that must be expelled, you have the need to cough. This is your body (your lungs specifically) attempting to expel the substance out (because veins carry blood to the lungs; arteries to the heart). This is very much similar to a situation in which you inhale a toxic gas, as anyone can recall if they have ever been exposed to something such as CS gas or tear gas, etc.)

What can you do about it? Not much. I can only reccomend injecting very slowly, as it seems like the cough and the severity of it is directly correlated to the speed by which the oil is being injected if there is a vein nearby that has been hit where the oil is seeping into. Some users claim it is possible to surpress the cough by immmidiately starting to inhale-exhale small amounts of air very rapidly through the mouth, much like you are hyperventilating or how pregnant women do it to surpress the contractions during labour.

Q: I GOT THE TREN COUGH!!!! HELP ME! AM I GOING TO DIE!? WILL I BE OKAY!?

No, you are not going to die. Yes, you will be okay. The cough clears within a matter of minutes. The severity of the cough is dependant on two factors: how quickly you injected the oil, and how much of it entered your bloodstream and travelled to the lungs to be expelled. It can manifest as the notorious hard and uncontrolable cough that starts right after or during injection, or a milder controllable one that is just irritating.

Q: Prolactin antagonists like Prami and Caber help prevent gyno and tren-dick? How do I use them?

Cabergoline can be used at 1mg per week, as it has a very long half life, approximately 7-14 days. Pramiprexole should be dosed at 0.5mg per day for the first few days, and then increase to 1mg thereafter. Nausea has been reported when increasing the dose too fast or too much. If you experience nausea, bring it down a notch. I think everyone will be different with the nausea effect. With that being said, 1-2mg per day is even considered a low dosage. Patients who are perscribed Prami are commonly perscribed 3 or 4mg per day too! Take prami before bed, as it apparently gives you excellent deep sleep and can make you drowsy and sleepy if taken during the day. Apparently it can knock you out cold. Prami is a very new compound, there is still data being collected on it. It seems to carry a couple side effects that Caber does not have. Nausea and drowsiness. I have personally not yet used Prami.

Q: Is tren liver toxic?

Tren doesn't put a high amount stress on the liver - it is not C17AA and as an injectable it avoids the first pass. However, it is known that tren is ever so slightly liver toxic due it its ability to resist hepatic breakdown greater than many other anabolic steroids. I have had my liver values checked with bloodwork many times after my tren cycles and have had ZERO problems. All of my enzyme levels were pefectly healthy, which would signify that likely the liver-stressing effect of tren is extremely minimal at best. For safety, one could run a good liver protectant such as Liv 52 or TUDCA/UDCA (see this thead here http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...-ORAL-TOXICITY!!) while on tren if one is extremely concerned. But I do not feel it is essential. Once again, proper bloodwork will tell you everything that is going on with yourself.

Q: I've heard that tren is harsh on the kidneys and people report urinating very dark unrine when on tren? Is this a bad sign?

Kidney damage has been a commonly touted effect of tren. I can say that tren is no harsher on the kidneys than most AAS. The origin of this rumor comes from the fact that often while on a tren cycle, you will find your urine becomes a very dark rusty color (this does certainly happen with me). It is not because your kidneys are being damaged. That dark rusty color are the metabolites of tren being excreted out of your body in your urine. Trenbolone seems to oxidize to a dark rust color very easily, even under refrigeration. The discolored urine tends to happen often, with no signs of renal toxicity. Also, trenbolone acetate is still widely used in animals for carcass weight increase. There seems to be no mention of kidney toxicity in animals, or with the few historical human trenbolone preparations. So basically, what some think is blood in the urine is actually just the metabolite of tren coloring the urine much darker. Tren itself before it is metabolized has a very amber color, hence why it is always amber in the vials it is contained in.

Q: If tren lowers T3 output in the body, is it necessary to always run T3 while on a tren cycle?

Not likely. If the goal is fat loss, it might be a bonus. I have run tren both with and without T3 before. 95% of my tren cycles are run without T3, and the cycles of tren without T3 were just fine. I didn't notice any diminished fat loss or metabolic issues. It would be interesting to see bloodwork while on a tren cycle and look at TSH and T3 levels, though... But, my bloodwork post-tren cycle has always shown normal healthy levels of TSH. SO, either the tren did not shut down thyroid output or my output bounced back to normal almost instantly after the cycle ended.

Q: Is HCG administration necessary on trenbolone?

Not unless you find your body is extremely sensitive to HPTA shutdown and you have a very difficult time restoring it during the post-cycle weeks. I have not found it necessary for myself, due to running short cycles. If you wish to maintain testicular size and function while on cycle, HCG can be used. However, this is for the most part a personal preference among users. My personal opinion is that I see far too many people excessively relying on HCG in the first place. It is very easy to destroy your body's endogenous LH secretion with it, and is one of the reasons why strongly advise against its constant use while on-cycle. IF it were to be used at all, I advise only during the first week or so of PCT to give the testes a jumpstart - that's IT.

Q: If Tren is highly androgenic, does that mean hair loss will occur with it? What can I do about it?

First of all, hair loss is genetic. You must posess the hereditary trait for MPB in order to be susceptible to it. If you do posess the gene for MPB, trenbolone can aggrivate hair loss more than any other anabolic steroid. I want to note that taking ANY 5-alpha reductase inhibitors such as proscar or finasteride will not do a thing to reduce the risk of hair loss from trenbolone. What these compounds do is they inhibit the enzyme (5-Alpha Reductase) responsible for converting testosterone into the more potent androgen Dihydrotestosterone (DHT), which is then the hormone that triggers MPB in those who are prone. Trenbolone does not convert into DHT at all, but trenbolone itself is very, very androgenic .

With that being said, I would reccomend looking into getting Nizoral 2% shampoo and use it on a regular basis. It acts as an androgen receptor antagonist in scalp tissue. Nizoral, through the ingredient Ketocozanole, blocks DHT from binding to receptors in your scalp, much like how nolvadex blocks estrogen from binding to receptor sites on breast tissue. Nizoral contains the active ingredient Ketocozanole. When applied topically, it acts as a DHT receptor antagonist at receptor sites in the scalp (or wherever you rub it on), effectively blocking the ability for DHT to bind to those receptors and activate the gene for hair loss. I'll quote a paragraph an article I found here, which provides a reference:

"Support for this comes from a study in 1998 that compared ketoconazole 2% to the proven hair loss drug minoxidil 2% in men with androgenic alopecia.[13] In a sample of 27 men, "Hair density and size and proportion of anagen follicles were improved almost similarly by both ketoconazole and minoxidil regimens." The men washed with ketoconazole 2% shampoo once every 2-4 days, leaving the shampoo on the scalp for 3-5 minutes before rinsing (as with the treatment of dandruff and seborrheic dermatitis).[13]"

Reference: http://www.hairlosstalk.com/hair-los...oral-study.pdf (link to the actual study that was done)

Q: What kind of PCT do I need to run after coming off a tren cycle?

There is no solid answer to this. I have suggested many times that trenbolone is for the intermediate and advanced user, not for beginners... and there is good reason for this suggestion. By the time you are experienced enough consider trenbolone, you should already know what PCT protocol works best for you and you should already know what to be using for PCT. PCT compounds and protocols are not designed around the cycles they supercede, but they are more designed around the user and how that person recovers post-cycle


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## swole troll (Apr 15, 2015)

Tren > All other steroids

The ONLY reason I don't run it every cycle is health, both physical and mental


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## 66983 (May 30, 2016)

swole troll said:


> Tren > All other steroids
> 
> The ONLY reason I don't run it every cycle is health, both physical and mental


 I was actually searching for 'is it possible to run TREN without the mental sides' when I found this thread.

I just can't chance it again.


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## swole troll (Apr 15, 2015)

Sparkey said:


> I was actually searching for 'is it possible to run TREN without the mental sides' when I found this thread.
> 
> I just can't chance it again.


 im guessing youve played with the ratios of test to tren ?

i find far less psychological sides and only slightly less gains by running 2-300mg test alongside whatever dose tren i like (within reason)


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## 66983 (May 30, 2016)

swole troll said:


> im guessing youve played with the ratios of test to tren ?
> 
> i find far less psychological sides and only slightly less gains by running 2-300mg test alongside whatever dose tren i like (within reason)


 Yes, I ran test higher both times with Tren, first time I tried ace, second time low dose E.

I just become switched off to everyone, only the training mattered.

Didn't want to interact with family, just shut everyone out.


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## swole troll (Apr 15, 2015)

Sparkey said:


> Yes, I ran test higher both times with Tren, first time I tried ace, second time low dose E.
> 
> I just become switched off to everyone, only the training mattered.
> 
> Didn't want to interact with family, just shut everyone out.


 yea it'll do that

what a bummer, i imagine with kids and stuff its just not really fair
my mrs notice's a distinct difference in my personality whilst on it
im not a hot head or anything just as you say very detached and emotionless

nandrolone is a close second so not the end of the world

i think 'the look' can almost be replicated with a npp, mast and anavar
and of course just being very lean


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## dtmiscool (Aug 12, 2016)

I love tren.

It's all I've ran both blasts now.

First blast was 600 test 400 tren and the sides were agony from week 5-6, mental issues left right and centre, literally no sleep and short tempered.

Cut dose down to 150 test 200 tren from week 6 and by week 8 I felt fine and didn't have any mental issues. Strength was still going up each week.

So this blast I started last week is 300/300 test/tren, stick this out for 5-6 weeks then reassess.

I ideally want to run 2-300 test and 4-500 tren to see how the sides are.

I have had some prolactin issues in the past though with it. Even running caber at 0.5mg mon/thurs.

this run around I'll be doing 0.5mg m/w/f along with my aromasin.


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## Frandeman (Mar 24, 2014)

fu**ing love Tren


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## Nara (Mar 29, 2014)

I've only even ran tren and test as well for injectables. Will start doing low test high tren now.


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## Benim (Jul 24, 2016)

Good thread.

High/medium tren - low test :thumbup1:


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## Devil (May 31, 2016)

Love tren with a passion. Feel better mentally and (obviously) physically than on just test/trt.

Im switching my blast to 150mg test, 150mg tren e and 250mg deca.

I have no reason (other than health markers/bloods) to ever not have a low, but effective dose of tren in


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## drwae (Jul 25, 2017)

How soon on tren e do u get sides? i just pinned tren e for the first time


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## shazzer2406 (Apr 23, 2016)

drwae said:


> How soon on tren e do u get sides? i just pinned tren e for the first time


 Some people will just never learn


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## UK2USA (Jan 30, 2016)

shazzer2406 said:


> Some people will just never learn


 Gotta give him credit, he's a resilient little fcuker, never stops with his nonsense, and no matter how many people let him know he's an idiot he keeps coming back for more.

I guess you just can't fix stupid?


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## ILLBehaviour (Dec 20, 2014)

drwae said:


> How soon on tren e do u get sides? i just pinned tren e for the first time


 Could get it within few days, couple of weeks or possibly not at all. 1gram front load, I'd expect it a sooner rather than later.


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## 31205 (Jan 16, 2013)

drwae said:


> How soon on tren e do u get sides? i just pinned tren e for the first time


 Pin 800mg in a oner and you'll probably struggle to sleep that same day. I did.


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## shazzer2406 (Apr 23, 2016)

sen said:


> Pin 800mg in a oner and you'll probably struggle to sleep that same day. I did.


 Bet you got some beastly gains though


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## 31205 (Jan 16, 2013)

shazzer2406 said:


> Bet you got some beastly gains though


 No mate. Couldn't eat by about week 2! Ha. Felt sick all the time. Was awful.


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## shazzer2406 (Apr 23, 2016)

sen said:


> No mate. Couldn't eat by about week 2! Ha. Felt sick all the time. Was awful.


 Lol I feel bad I'm doing alright this cycle, only thing I'm really getting is sweats and oily hair, which to be honest I hate as I'm a vain t**t lol


----------



## lukeyybrown1 (Jun 4, 2014)

Post pics of yourself mate

I want to see what 5 years on tren looks like physique wise


----------



## Sphinkter (Apr 10, 2015)

lukeyybrown1 said:


> Post pics of yourself mate
> 
> I want to see what 5 years on tren looks like physique wise


 Its not him OP copied the post from another forum


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## billy76 (Mar 22, 2015)

I used Parabolan about 20 years ago, but had stop 6 weeks in due to family reasons.

Amazing stuff, but didn't have a clue what I was doing at the time.

Good post O.P.


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## GMDJ (Mar 9, 2016)

I am on the fence about whether to use it or not, brought a few vials and was planning to use it for a cut next year but I can be a arsehole at the best of times and with two young kids I don't want to snap at them. Maybe run xanax throughout the cycle to settle me down?


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## dtmiscool (Aug 12, 2016)

What doses ya'll enjoy running with your test/tren ratios.

I use tren for bulking up and usually cut on a cruise.


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## Devil (May 31, 2016)

dtmiscool said:


> What doses ya'll enjoy running with your test/tren ratios.
> 
> I use tren for bulking up and usually cut on a cruise.


 150mg test 300-400mg tren e

0 sides


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## dtmiscool (Aug 12, 2016)

Devil said:


> 150mg test 300-400mg tren e
> 
> 0 sides


 This is what I was thinking. Always ran test higher or equal to my tren.

Starting to think giving a TRT dose test and 400 or so tren would be better for the sides.


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## Devil (May 31, 2016)

dtmiscool said:


> This is what I was thinking. Always ran test higher or equal to my tren.
> 
> Starting to think giving a TRT dose test and 400 or so tren would be better for the sides.


 I never change from a trt dose

it means my e2 etc is ALWAYS perfect year around

just add compound when wanted. I personally experience minimal sides with any compound under 300-400mgish


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## Dead lee (Jul 4, 2010)

Don't see anything new here, the thyroid and blood markers will always drop back in after cycle , it's on cycle they get hammered.

Rather use less tren more test, better libido and hits harder.

Think the big guys use low test , Heath, ramy , Ronnie, Kai Greene think again not to mention Dallas.


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## GMO (Jul 17, 2013)

good read but ive tried tren all ways and it does a number on me mentally no matter if use 100mg ew or 100mg ed ,. shame as it its an amazing compound but i never kast more than a few weeks on it now


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## iamyou (Oct 29, 2012)

The key with tren is to completely embrace it and when in doubt simply up the dose. All of your problems will eventually go away (girlfriend, friends etc). I had no gf during my last tren cycle and it was a night and day difference. Nobody to get angry or paranoid about.


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## AestheticManlet (Jun 12, 2012)

Test and tren is also all I'll use from now. I gave deca a bash last bulk and i liked it but anxiety and broken sleep got bad around 8 weeks in.

I think the anabolic ratings are bullshit though - as if 200mg tren is going to equal 1000mg test but tren is the king of steroids imo.


----------



## drwae (Jul 25, 2017)

Ross1991 said:


> Test and tren is also all I'll use from now. I gave deca a bash last bulk and i liked it but anxiety and broken sleep got bad around 8 weeks in.
> 
> I think the anabolic ratings are bullshit though - as if 200mg tren is going to equal 1000mg test but tren is the king of steroids imo.


 What do you thinks more anabolic mate, 600mg test 600mg deca OR 250mg test 400mg tren? as ive just gone from the former to the latter to strip some fat off and confuse my body to grow more


----------



## Devil (May 31, 2016)

Ross1991 said:


> Test and tren is also all I'll use from now. I gave deca a bash last bulk and i liked it but anxiety and broken sleep got bad around 8 weeks in.
> 
> I think the anabolic ratings are bullshit though - as if 200mg tren is going to equal 1000mg test but tren is the king of steroids imo.


 Get anything joint wise for the deca mate? When you ran it.

Just pinned 250mg and halved my tren e to 150mg alongside.


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## AestheticManlet (Jun 12, 2012)

drwae said:


> What do you thinks more anabolic mate, 600mg test 600mg deca OR 250mg test 400mg tren? as ive just gone from the former to the latter to strip some fat off and confuse my body to grow more


 Compounds are person dependant for results id say. I've ran 250-300mg test with 400mg tren and I've done 600 test 300 deca.

Id say results were quite similar in terms of gains although physique wise I looked better on test and tren.

Tren makes a huge difference when you come off 3-4 weeks later I usually think god I look s**t now haha



Devil said:


> Get anything joint wise for the deca mate? When you ran it.
> 
> Just pinned 250mg and halved my tren e to 150mg alongside.


 Can't say I did mate. Although I was bashing orals and superdrol at 40-60mg killed my joints so I can't say the deca had a chance of helping haha.


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## drwae (Jul 25, 2017)

Ross1991 said:


> Compounds are person dependant for results id say. I've ran 250-300mg test with 400mg tren and I've done 600 test 300 deca.
> 
> Id say results were quite similar in terms of gains although physique wise I looked better on test and tren.
> 
> ...


 How long did it take you to notice the physique changes from tren? I just did my first pin of tren e last night. would you say its true that you notice your physique changing on it every week?


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## AestheticManlet (Jun 12, 2012)

drwae said:


> How long did it take you to notice the physique changes from tren? I just did my first pin of tren e last night. would you say its true that you notice your physique changing on it every week?


 Yes definitely true but for me and with enanthate takes around 5 weeks to start noticing real changes - drier, stronger, look leaner despite gaining weight. Awesome stuff.


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## drwae (Jul 25, 2017)

Ross1991 said:


> Yes definitely true but for me and with enanthate takes around 5 weeks to start noticing real changes - drier, stronger, look leaner despite gaining weight. Awesome stuff.


 Nice one cheers mate hope i start looking good for christmas and new year then :thumb


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## mannersjay (Aug 19, 2013)

dtmiscool said:


> What doses ya'll enjoy running with your test/tren ratios.
> 
> I use tren for bulking up and usually cut on a cruise.


 I don't know about enjoy, but I personally can't go over 400 mg tren, and that's a struggle. Test sometimes higher, sometimes lower. On a bulk 500 test, 300 tren. Cut I'd lower test to 200-250 mg, still around 350mg-400mg tren.


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## ILLBehaviour (Dec 20, 2014)

drwae said:


> What do you thinks more anabolic mate, 600mg test 600mg deca OR 250mg test 400mg tren? as *ive just gone from the former to the latter to strip some fat off and confuse my body to grow more*


 only thing confused is you. 20 kilos of fat gains and still wants to grow more.....


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## Devil (May 31, 2016)

drwae said:


> How long did it take you to notice the physique changes from tren? I just did my first pin of tren e last night. would you say its true that you notice your physique changing on it every week?


 If your diet is extremely on point, training 5-6x a week, I can literally notice daily changes.

This was on 150mg test 300mg tren e 50mcg t3


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## MrBishi (Mar 10, 2016)

Great article. Was one of the ones I read that helped me plan my first Tren cycle. And how I ended up low test (200mg) and mid Tren (500mg).

I'm only in the middle of my 2nd Tren cycle, dosages both the same but this time bulking ith Enanthates and last time cutting with Ace/Prop.

Whilst I haven't really had any bad mental sides Ace had me feeling like a God. Physical sides have been quite noticeable in comparison on Tren Enanthate. Broken sleep, insomnia from anxiety and night sweats. Not bad enough to discontinue use though.

Though the difference could well be down to carbs as I'm obviously eating more on a bulk. And the only nights I had night sweats on Ace was when I had big fat takeaway loaded with carbs.

It's a shame about the frequent pinning with Ace/Prop, every other day pinning is such a chore after a couple of months compared to every 4 days at the moment.

I'd love to try Deca just to blow up like I do on high Test but it's so much more satisfying when you come off Tren and you don't drop a s**t ton of water and size.


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## dtmiscool (Aug 12, 2016)

Dead lee said:


> Don't see anything new here, the thyroid and blood markers will always drop back in after cycle , it's on cycle they get hammered.
> 
> Rather use less tren more test, better libido and hits harder.
> 
> Think the big guys use low test , Heath, ramy , Ronnie, Kai Greene think again not to mention Dallas.


 What makes you think the big guys run low test high tren mate?


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## drwae (Jul 25, 2017)

dtmiscool said:


> What makes you think the big guys run low test high tren mate?


 he's actualllys saying the opposite


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## Dead lee (Jul 4, 2010)

dtmiscool said:


> What makes you think the big guys run low test high tren mate?


 I don't lol

i would say test and deca is more popular anyway, tren more preping for comp

Flex Lewis shows Classic test & deca face most of the year.

test , deca, slin and gh is likely most popular stack, they show hallmarks of high test, still lean , fat face and puffy look.

Not saying there running 10g test doses like Dallas but there not running trt doses of test that's for sure.


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## shazzer2406 (Apr 23, 2016)

Brilliant post although does anyone know if caber will reduce this type of gyno or is it just prevention?


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## dtmiscool (Aug 12, 2016)

shazzer2406 said:


> Brilliant post although does anyone know if caber will reduce this type of gyno or is it just prevention?


 Caber will help with lowering prolactin, if the gyno is prolactin based then it should in theory help.

If my gyno flares up on up on my tren cycle I up my AI for a couple of days and put in some nolvadex (20mg a day) for a few days and up my caber dose for a few days as well.. you get the idea.

After a few days it dies down and I revert back to normal doses.


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## shazzer2406 (Apr 23, 2016)

dtmiscool said:


> Caber will help with lowering prolactin, if the gyno is prolactin based then it should in theory help.
> 
> If my gyno flares up on up on my tren cycle I up my AI for a couple of days and put in some nolvadex (20mg a day) for a few days and up my caber dose for a few days as well.. you get the idea.
> 
> After a few days it dies down and I revert back to normal doses.


 Yeah I've upped ai and started nolva I've never actually taken caber though just got some on order


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## dtmiscool (Aug 12, 2016)

shazzer2406 said:


> Yeah I've upped ai and started nolva I've never actually taken caber though just got some on order


 Helps a bunch, first time I got some was when my sex drive dropped mid cycle and bloods came back everything in range other than prolactin. Ran caber for only a week taking 1.5mg over an entire week and my sex drive was back with a vengeance.

Always use it on cycle now. Mainly because I get it for free from my partner, she's a pharmacist :thumb


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## shazzer2406 (Apr 23, 2016)

dtmiscool said:


> Helps a bunch, first time I got some was when my sex drive dropped mid cycle and bloods came back everything in range other than prolactin. Ran caber for only a week taking 1.5mg over an entire week and my sex drive was back with a vengeance.
> 
> Always use it on cycle now. Mainly because I get it for free from my partner, she's a pharmacist :thumb


 I'll give you my address Yeah? Lol

what does do you run at?


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## dtmiscool (Aug 12, 2016)

shazzer2406 said:


> I'll give you my address Yeah? Lol
> 
> what does do you run at?


 Haha, wouldn't be the first to ask! Saves me a bunch of money. Currently have enough to last me 36 weeks!

I run 0.5mg m/w/f when on test/tren. Run my AI on same days.


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## shazzer2406 (Apr 23, 2016)

dtmiscool said:


> Haha, wouldn't be the first to ask! Saves me a bunch of money. Currently have enough to last me 36 weeks!
> 
> I run 0.5mg m/w/f when on test/tren. Run my AI on same days.


 Lol think my Mrs needs to change job.

Ok mate thanks a lot I'll start that


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## smiddy444 (Feb 18, 2017)

Excellent thread, and making me wonder if I should f**k off the test+deca idea for cycle two and just go straight for test+tren.


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## dtmiscool (Aug 12, 2016)

smiddy444 said:


> Excellent thread, and making me wonder if I should f**k off the test+deca idea for cycle two and just go straight for test+tren.


 What was your first cycle?

I did..

first cycle: test

second: test + oral

third: higher test + oral

fourth: test + 19nor

Now I blast/cruise like most

I found that to be best for me.


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## smiddy444 (Feb 18, 2017)

First cycle was your bog standard 600mg p/w Test E cycle. 15 weeks, but ended up being 17 as I didn't want to be in a low test state while in Ibiza.

Would rather avoid orals.


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## dtmiscool (Aug 12, 2016)

smiddy444 said:


> First cycle was your bog standard 600mg p/w Test E cycle. 15 weeks, but ended up being 17 as I didn't want to be in a low test state while in Ibiza.
> 
> Would rather avoid orals.


 Any reason why you want to avoid them if you haven't tried them? some people avoid them because of lethargy or loss of appetite but if you haven't tried them how would you know that would effect you? No offence intended. Just curious.

I personally avoid orals now unless there dht's, but I did give them a try way before tren. Tren ain't no joke. It's the nectar of the gods for a reason :tongue:


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## smiddy444 (Feb 18, 2017)

Three main reasons I plan to avoid orals, and one that is really minor to me but I know is a BIG deal for a lot of guys -

1. The appetite loss from bloating you mention. As someone who suffered from poor appetite before doing gear (and was one of the main reasons I did it) this is biggie for me. I know it's not a certainty on orals, but it's a risk.

2. Hepatoxicity. I know it isn't deadly, but why take the risk of any damage when there's injectable-only cycles that are just as good?

3. Availability. The only labs I can find reliable sources for either don't do orals, or have shite reviews for their orals (SIS being a prime example). If I can't find them, and we can't ask on here, it's a lot of effort to source them.

And finally, the one that is minor for me -

4. Ease. I know a lot of guys are scared of needles, hence why orals seem like a better choice. I personally don't mind and could now inject all day without concern. To me, a tablet is no easier than an injection, and given the risk of hepatoxicity and gastro upset, I'd be far more nervous and concerned about taking a simple tablet than pinning.

I think overall, it's all kind of academic, as I know there are brilliant injectable cycles that loads of guys work with. I'm not saying orals don't work, of course they do, I'm just saying it's not like non-oral cycles don't work too. I made a thread asking about my second cycle options, and Test+Deca was the almost universal recommendation. But now I read this thread, I'm wondering if the whole thing around "Tren is only for those who've reached holy-master level when it comes to steroids" is a bit of a myth. I know Tren is not to be f**ked around with if you don't know what you're doing, but as someone who had no issues and great results from a blast of test, is it really something that's beyond my control?


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## ElChapo (Apr 7, 2017)

Dead lee said:


> Don't see anything new here, the thyroid and blood markers will always drop back in after cycle , it's on cycle they get hammered.
> 
> Rather use less tren more test, better libido and hits harder.
> 
> Think the big guys use low test , Heath, ramy , Ronnie, Kai Greene think again not to mention Dallas.


 Yeah, McCarver's total testosterone level was over 50,000 ng/dL. That's like +10 grams per week injectable test.


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## MrBishi (Mar 10, 2016)

smiddy444 said:


> Excellent thread, and making me wonder if I should f**k off the test+deca idea for cycle two and just go straight for test+tren.


 If you did decide to give Tren a go go for Ace, it is more frequent pinning, BUT, if you can't handle the sides it soon leaves your system when you stop.

How I got to Tren

1st: 600mg Test E + Anavar (bridge to PCT)
2st: 600mg Test E
3rd: 600mg Test E
4th: 175-350mg Test P + 350-525mg Tren A
5th: 350mg Winstrol (kickstart) + 260mg Test E + 525mg Tren E


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## dtmiscool (Aug 12, 2016)

smiddy444 said:


> Three main reasons I plan to avoid orals, and one that is really minor to me but I know is a BIG deal for a lot of guys -
> 
> 1. The appetite loss from bloating you mention. As someone who suffered from poor appetite before doing gear (and was one of the main reasons I did it) this is biggie for me. I know it's not a certainty on orals, but it's a risk.
> 
> ...


 It's all personal preference I get that. But tren isn't great for your insides either. One could argue orals are much safer options in that department. I personally would exhaust all other options before inducing tren. But that's just from a personal perspective and you'll do whatever it is you want to do anyway.

I guess the reason why people have recommended deca over tren next is because generally the sides are far less. I personally get super anxious on deca but tren I'm just a little hot headed but nothing overly dramatic.

Doses over 400mg of tren and I start becoming a mental mess and have zero control over my emotions and get next to no sleep each night after a few weeks. It's exhausting haha. So I stick with 200-350mg nowadays.


----------



## BelfastMuscle (Jan 6, 2017)

swole troll said:


> Tren > All other steroids
> 
> The ONLY reason I don't run it every cycle is health, both physical and mental


 ^^^^^^^100%


----------



## Dead lee (Jul 4, 2010)

ElChapo said:


> Yeah, McCarver's total testosterone level was over 50,000 ng/dL. That's like +10 grams per week injectable test.


 Pretty unbelievable what they are willing to do, I remember buying Paul borressons book 'the stack' around 2000 and just thinking this serious s**t.


----------



## Pabloliftbar (Sep 19, 2017)

I went crazy and did Tren A on my first cycle(currently on it) , running 600mg of test c and 450mg of tren a. Literally no sides at all, just cant sleep longer than 3-4 hours straight, and waking up atleast few times on a midnight, other than that nothing, no mental issues or anger because im not aggresive normally, no gyno issues, taking adex every 5days or so. Before i thought my gear is shite, that i dont feel anything serious on tren for the first cycle ever (ran MTS) now i changed to TM and SG and they are praised on this forum, its def legit, so in this case im thinking its just me?


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## feelinfine (Sep 26, 2017)

drwae said:


> How long did it take you to notice the physique changes from tren? I just did my first pin of tren e last night. would you say its true that you notice your physique changing on it every week?


 Just ran a cycle of tren hex. I started to feel it by week 3. By week 5 it was fully in force - seeing those daily changes, surge of strength, some minor side effects, etc. Thought it was too good to be true. Great results and felt good. But I just got a check up with my doc and my blood pressure, cholesterol, liver values, etc are all out of whack.

Gives me pause for sure. What is the point of looking good if you are rotting on the inside. For my next cycle I think I am going to try primobolan instead of tren. Read that it gives the same kind of dry lean gains that tren gives you but you have to run it at high doses. It is more expensive than running tren but health is more important than money. Maybe I might just do a low test cycle (400mg/wk) and do a lean bulk.

Either way looks like tren is just not right for me, even though the results were phenomenal and I could tolerate it well, had little side effects. But just the way it messed with my internal organs is too scary to think about.


----------



## feelinfine (Sep 26, 2017)

smiddy444 said:


> But now I read this thread, I'm wondering if the whole thing around "Tren is only for those who've reached holy-master level when it comes to steroids" is a bit of a myth. I know Tren is not to be f**ked around with if you don't know what you're doing, but as someone who had no issues and great results from a blast of test, is it really something that's beyond my control?


 Against all advice I ran test+tren for my first cycle. Ended up having great results and little sides. Only after I got blood work is when I realized tren is probably not right for me. Started at 200mg/wk for a while to see if I could tolerate it and bumped it to 300mg/wk the last few weeks.

I think if you run a low dose you will be fine but everyone responds differently. If your heart is set on trying tren then nothing else will come close to the hyped imagination until you try it for yourself. Reading and researching is good and all but in the end you will have to try it first hand to know for sure.


----------



## drwae (Jul 25, 2017)

feelinfine said:


> Just ran a cycle of tren hex. I started to feel it by week 3. By week 5 it was fully in force - seeing those daily changes, surge of strength, some minor side effects, etc. Thought it was too good to be true. Great results and felt good. But I just got a check up with my doc and my blood pressure, cholesterol, liver values, etc are all out of whack.
> 
> Gives me pause for sure. What is the point of looking good if you are rotting on the inside. For my next cycle I think I am going to try primobolan instead of tren. Read that it gives the same kind of dry lean gains that tren gives you but you have to run it at high doses. It is more expensive than running tren but health is more important than money. Maybe I might just do a low test cycle (400mg/wk) and do a lean bulk.
> 
> Either way looks like tren is just not right for me, even though the results were phenomenal and I could tolerate it well, had little side effects. But just the way it messed with my internal organs is too scary to think about.


 were your daily changes getting leaner and more muscular at the same time??

Primo is too expensive imo, its about 4x the price of tren when you consider the dosage you have to use and its normally done at 100mg/ml so thats a lot of oil

have you thought about deca mate? ive just finished running deca and put on a lot of weight on it


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## Deltz123 (Oct 8, 2017)

feelinfine said:


> Just ran a cycle of tren hex. I started to feel it by week 3. By week 5 it was fully in force - seeing those daily changes, surge of strength, some minor side effects, etc. Thought it was too good to be true. Great results and felt good. But I just got a check up with my doc and my blood pressure, cholesterol, liver values, etc are all out of whack.
> 
> Gives me pause for sure. What is the point of looking good if you are rotting on the inside. For my next cycle I think I am going to try primobolan instead of tren. Read that it gives the same kind of dry lean gains that tren gives you but you have to run it at high doses. It is more expensive than running tren but health is more important than money. Maybe I might just do a low test cycle (400mg/wk) and do a lean bulk.
> 
> Either way looks like tren is just not right for me, even though the results were phenomenal and I could tolerate it well, had little side effects. But just the way it messed with my internal organs is too scary to think about.


 Did you do your bloodwork on cycle or off?


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## Deltz123 (Oct 8, 2017)

What ester do you all prefer?

did e and ace. Ace made me pretty agressive although it could because I was at the end of a deep cut. E didn't made me agressive but sweating, out of breath and a boatload of acne were common sides.


----------



## feelinfine (Sep 26, 2017)

Deltz123 said:


> Did you do your bloodwork on cycle or off?


 I got a checkup at the end of my cycle before pct. Did a baseline test before the cycle. Yeah it screwed me up more than I thought it would. I think everyone should get a checkup prior to starting a cycle and at the end. Just to catch anything. Would be the smart thing to do.

I loved tren but overall health matters to me more. So I think I am just going to either run small test only cycles or add in primo.



drwae said:


> were your daily changes getting leaner and more muscular at the same time??
> 
> Primo is too expensive imo, its about 4x the price of tren when you consider the dosage you have to use and its normally done at 100mg/ml so thats a lot of oil
> 
> have you thought about deca mate? ive just finished running deca and put on a lot of weight on it


 The tren hex I was taking was only 76mg/1.5ml. I don't mind pinning. Would never take anything that retains water or causes bloating like deca. I only care about dry lean gains. See fat bastards on cycle at the gym all the time. Yeah they are big but also look like complete shite. So many people who have no business taking gear are on for some reason. Just wasting their time and money. Get lean and build a good foundation naturally first, then use the gear to help you bust through plateaus. My motto is use as little as possible and rely on nutrition and training for the results.


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## dtmiscool (Aug 12, 2016)

Deltz123 said:


> What ester do you all prefer?
> 
> did e and ace. Ace made me pretty agressive although it could because I was at the end of a deep cut. E didn't made me agressive but sweating, out of breath and a boatload of acne were common sides.


 I prefer E just because less injection frequency. Tren A had me coughing like a bitch a few times. Tren E hasn't ever had an issue other than the usual tren sides like sweat and struggling to sleep and some mental issues.


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## Deltz123 (Oct 8, 2017)

dtmiscool said:


> I prefer E just because less injection frequency. Tren A had me coughing like a bitch a few times. Tren E hasn't ever had an issue other than the usual tren sides like sweat and struggling to sleep and some mental issues.


 What mental issues do you get?


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## dtmiscool (Aug 12, 2016)

Deltz123 said:


> What mental issues do you get?


 Anxiety or paranoia mostly. Which is weird because I never suffer from it usually. Last time I ran my tren over 400mg I got extremely possessive and over jealous with my partner and I've never in my entire life been a jealous person.

It does weird things to you mentally that on my first run of it I totally didn't expect. Certainly didn't think I'd be one of the ones effected mentally by it all because I'm usually so placid and laid back.

Anythong around the 100-300mg mark though and I'm golden. So mental sides at all.


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## mmichael (Dec 7, 2014)

ElChapo said:


> Yeah, McCarver's total testosterone level was over 50,000 ng/dL. That's like +10 grams per week injectable test.





Dead lee said:


> Pretty unbelievable what they are willing to do, I remember buying Paul borressons book 'the stack' around 2000 and just thinking this serious s**t.


 Yeah, it pisses me off when IFBB pros or former guys lie about dosage. I just don't understand it for the life of me. They claim in blogs, articles and videos they used moderate gear like no more than 1.5-2g of stuff and most of it was test alone and smaller dosages of things like deca, orals, eq ect....and they end up looking the way they did. Then comes around a modern IFBB guy like Dallas and his blood work alone shows how much someone like him is using the compete and stands out for a comparison to ass hole liars. It really must have to do with some ego-pride problem that all big guys face. The only true guys out there that carry good size and admit to dosages are greg val and bostin loyd as far as I know. I wonder how they pin so much too, I get so sweaty now a days when trying to pin my glutes cause it's so hard to twist for me and keep the needle straight cause I know when I f**k it up and needle shoots into a vein or too much into fat then I reap the suffering of cough for weeks. And then my quads, when I shoot 3cc into them I feel this MEGA pressure like they are about to explode.. Seriously.

@Sparkey

I don't know about this whole tren thing anymore bro. I'm personally approaching end of week 5 and I've been running 1.2g SG tren e 300mg. Been Pinning 2ml of the stuff e3d non stop. The Pip even after warmed up with a heater and remixed is a nightmare and almost every other week my delts get red and inflamed and hurt like hell. Either way though, I've just not been feeling the tren "power". My piss is darker now, I do sweat when nervous instant and even in sleep, I've gotten some pretty realistic dreams if I can sleep in hours in a row without interruptions, but as far as this STR goes on it. I'm really not feeling nothing special here and I don't see any crazy size, but my diet as been lacking lately I should note...I don't know. Honestly, I wish I would have bought Deca instead again. Tren is becoming so over rated among st people just because they claim its 5x stronger than test.


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## Dead lee (Jul 4, 2010)

mmichael said:


> Yeah, it pisses me off when IFBB pros or former guys lie about dosage. I just don't understand it for the life of me. They claim in blogs, articles and videos they used moderate gear like no more than 1.5-2g of stuff and most of it was test alone and smaller dosages of things like deca, orals, eq ect....and they end up looking the way they did. Then comes around a modern IFBB guy like Dallas and his blood work alone shows how much someone like him is using the compete and stands out for a comparison to ass hole liars. It really must have to do with some ego-pride problem that all big guys face. The only true guys out there that carry good size and admit to dosages are greg val and bostin loyd as far as I know. I wonder how they pin so much too, I get so sweaty now a days when trying to pin my glutes cause it's so hard to twist for me and keep the needle straight cause I know when I f**k it up and needle shoots into a vein or too much into fat then I reap the suffering of cough for weeks. And then my quads, when I shoot 3cc into them I feel this MEGA pressure like they are about to explode.. Seriously.
> 
> @Sparkey
> 
> I don't know about this whole tren thing anymore bro. I'm personally approaching end of week 5 and I've been running 1.2g SG tren e 300mg. Been Pinning 2ml of the stuff e3d non stop. The Pip even after warmed up with a heater and remixed is a nightmare and almost every other week my delts get red and inflamed and hurt like hell. Either way though, I've just not been feeling the tren "power". My piss is darker now, I do sweat when nervous instant and even in sleep, I've gotten some pretty realistic dreams if I can sleep in hours in a row without interruptions, but as far as this STR goes on it. I'm really not feeling nothing special here and I don't see any crazy size, but my diet as been lacking lately I should note...I don't know. Honestly, I wish I would have bought Deca instead again. Tren is becoming so over rated among st people just because they claim its 5x stronger than test.


 Just being labelled and avoiding flack, some go down the road of being honest to make a name for themselves and make money that way, likely losing any chance they have of actually winning the Olympia in the process and other sponsorship contracts.


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## dtmiscool (Aug 12, 2016)

mmichael said:


> Yeah, it pisses me off when IFBB pros or former guys lie about dosage. I just don't understand it for the life of me. They claim in blogs, articles and videos they used moderate gear like no more than 1.5-2g of stuff and most of it was test alone and smaller dosages of things like deca, orals, eq ect....and they end up looking the way they did. Then comes around a modern IFBB guy like Dallas and his blood work alone shows how much someone like him is using the compete and stands out for a comparison to ass hole liars. It really must have to do with some ego-pride problem that all big guys face. The only true guys out there that carry good size and admit to dosages are greg val and bostin loyd as far as I know. I wonder how they pin so much too, I get so sweaty now a days when trying to pin my glutes cause it's so hard to twist for me and keep the needle straight cause I know when I f**k it up and needle shoots into a vein or too much into fat then I reap the suffering of cough for weeks. And then my quads, when I shoot 3cc into them I feel this MEGA pressure like they are about to explode.. Seriously.
> 
> @Sparkey
> 
> I don't know about this whole tren thing anymore bro. I'm personally approaching end of week 5 and I've been running 1.2g SG tren e 300mg. Been Pinning 2ml of the stuff e3d non stop. The Pip even after warmed up with a heater and remixed is a nightmare and almost every other week my delts get red and inflamed and hurt like hell. Either way though, I've just not been feeling the tren "power". My piss is darker now, I do sweat when nervous instant and even in sleep, I've gotten some pretty realistic dreams if I can sleep in hours in a row without interruptions, but as far as this STR goes on it. I'm really not feeling nothing special here and I don't see any crazy size, but my diet as been lacking lately I should note...I don't know. Honestly, I wish I would have bought Deca instead again. Tren is becoming so over rated among st people just because they claim its 5x stronger than test.


 You just said you're getting all the tren sides but your diet has been sh*t so what are you expecting from it?

its not a magic pill you still gotta put in the work mate.


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## ElChapo (Apr 7, 2017)

mmichael said:


> Yeah, it pisses me off when IFBB pros or former guys lie about dosage. I just don't understand it for the life of me. They claim in blogs, articles and videos they used moderate gear like no more than 1.5-2g of stuff and most of it was test alone and smaller dosages of things like deca, orals, eq ect....and they end up looking the way they did. Then comes around a modern IFBB guy like Dallas and his blood work alone shows how much someone like him is using the compete and stands out for a comparison to ass hole liars. It really must have to do with some ego-pride problem that all big guys face. The only true guys out there that carry good size and admit to dosages are greg val and bostin loyd as far as I know. I wonder how they pin so much too, I get so sweaty now a days when trying to pin my glutes cause it's so hard to twist for me and keep the needle straight cause I know when I f**k it up and needle shoots into a vein or too much into fat then I reap the suffering of cough for weeks. And then my quads, when I shoot 3cc into them I feel this MEGA pressure like they are about to explode.. Seriously.
> 
> @Sparkey
> 
> I don't know about this whole tren thing anymore bro. I'm personally approaching end of week 5 and I've been running 1.2g SG tren e 300mg. Been Pinning 2ml of the stuff e3d non stop. The Pip even after warmed up with a heater and remixed is a nightmare and almost every other week my delts get red and inflamed and hurt like hell. Either way though, I've just not been feeling the tren "power". My piss is darker now, I do sweat when nervous instant and even in sleep, I've gotten some pretty realistic dreams if I can sleep in hours in a row without interruptions, but as far as this STR goes on it. I'm really not feeling nothing special here and I don't see any crazy size, but my diet as been lacking lately I should note...I don't know. Honestly, I wish I would have bought Deca instead again. Tren is becoming so over rated among st people just because they claim its 5x stronger than test.


 The glutes and ventro glutes can hold 5 cc somewhat comfortably. Quads are different since the muscle is so tight and active, however, my friend pins 5 cc regularly during blast into the quads. Ventro glutes are fairly easy to reach without twisting too much unless you are very very unflexible. Not a fan of gluteus maximus

Some people don't get crazy results from trenbolone and will keep it low to get the cosmetic and recomp effect without the sides (think 200-300 mg per week). Don't forget that diet is #1, muscle needs energy and protein to be formed.


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## smiddy444 (Feb 18, 2017)

feelinfine said:


> Against all advice I ran test+tren for my first cycle. Ended up having great results and little sides. Only after I got blood work is when I realized tren is probably not right for me. Started at 200mg/wk for a while to see if I could tolerate it and bumped it to 300mg/wk the last few weeks.
> 
> I think if you run a low dose you will be fine but everyone responds differently. If your heart is set on trying tren then nothing else will come close to the hyped imagination until you try it for yourself. Reading and researching is good and all but in the end you will have to try it first hand to know for sure.


 What did your bloodwork show that made you realise tren isn't right for you?


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## Deltz123 (Oct 8, 2017)

dtmiscool said:


> You just said you're getting all the tren sides but your diet has been sh*t so what are you expecting from it?
> 
> its not a magic pill you still gotta put in the work mate.


 True, but 1,2g of real tren, i'd expect Some magic too tbh :lol:


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## feelinfine (Sep 26, 2017)

ElChapo said:


> Ventro glutes are fairly easy to reach without twisting too much unless you are very very unflexible.


 VG is my favourite spot to pin. It is really easy to feel for when you are sitting down. No pip or swelling either. Rotated with delts but stopped pinning delts because it would always swell a bit and affect my workouts.



smiddy444 said:


> What did your bloodwork show that made you realise tren isn't right for you?


 Cholesterol and liver values. Also blood pressure was way too high. Now I am looking for a tren substitute. Something else that gives the same hardness and separation of tren. Read that primo in high doses achieves the same effect. Costs a lot though but health is way more important to me. Too bad because I got some incredible results from tren and little sides. I knew it was too good to be true when the cycle went so smoothly.


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## Drol (Sep 5, 2017)

feelinfine said:


> VG is my favourite spot to pin. It is really easy to feel for when you are sitting down. No pip or swelling either. Rotated with delts but stopped pinning delts because it would always swell a bit and affect my workouts.
> 
> Cholesterol and liver values. Also blood pressure was way too high. Now I am looking for a tren substitute. Something else that gives the same hardness and separation of tren. Read that primo in high doses achieves the same effect. Costs a lot though but health is way more important to me. Too bad because I got some incredible results from tren and little sides. I knew it was too good to be true when the cycle went so smoothly.


 Have you tried test, npp and mast?


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## Drol (Sep 5, 2017)

I've just come off tren, well it's probably still in my system in small amounts but jesus you don't realise how much of a c**t you are until you're off it :lol: if the mrs wasn't punching she'd have left me


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## Deltz123 (Oct 8, 2017)

Drol said:


> I've just come off tren, well it's probably still in my system in small amounts but jesus you don't realise how much of a c**t you are until you're off it :lol: if the mrs wasn't punching she'd have left me


 Did you use it for bulk or cut?

I a cut, I experienced the Same as you. In a bulk I'm actually pretty sweet


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## drwae (Jul 25, 2017)

Could tren e be affecting me already? I've only pinned twice, a larger dose to front load on thursday and then 200mg yesterday and ive found the past couple of nights ive had broken sleep, waking up many times in the night, feeling hot all the time. At the gym today I coated all the equipment in sweat, I never do that! Normally i dont have to wipe down after using


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## MBR (Feb 28, 2014)

Next comes the waking up in a police cell wearing white paper overalls because of the raping and killing.


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## Drol (Sep 5, 2017)

Deltz123 said:


> Did you use it for bulk or cut?
> 
> I a cut, I experienced the Same as you. In a bulk I'm actually pretty sweet


 I used it bulking, some of the things I said and did on it were not like me at all.


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## smiddy444 (Feb 18, 2017)

drwae said:


> Could tren e be affecting me already? I've only pinned twice, a larger dose to front load on thursday and then 200mg yesterday and ive found the past couple of nights ive had broken sleep, waking up many times in the night, feeling hot all the time. At the gym today I coated all the equipment in sweat, I never do that! Normally i dont have to wipe down after using


 I really, really hate to jump on the "let's have a pop at drwae" train, but if you'd so much as casually read anecdotes on this forum, nevermind reading more serious literature about the potential sides of tren, you'd know full well that broken sleep and sweating/raised body temperature are extremely common sides, almost to be expected and a sign your gear isn't bunk.

I mean, I've kind of ignored the whole thing around your "journey" on here, but I really would read/listen to what others have to say if I were you.


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## shazzer2406 (Apr 23, 2016)

smiddy444 said:


> I really, really hate to jump on the "let's have a pop at drwae" train, but if you'd so much as casually read anecdotes on this forum, nevermind reading more serious literature about the potential sides of tren, you'd know full well that broken sleep and sweating/raised body temperature are extremely common sides, almost to be expected and a sign your gear isn't bunk.
> 
> I mean, I've kind of ignored the whole thing around your "journey" on here, but I really would read/listen to what others have to say if I were you.


 Don't even bother replying to him mate. it is all a little to easy to jump on him but he has been told to dial it down and actually read/listen to advice. The guy is either a glutton for punishment or a fu**ing idiot


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## drwae (Jul 25, 2017)

smiddy444 said:


> I really, really hate to jump on the "let's have a pop at drwae" train, but if you'd so much as casually read anecdotes on this forum, nevermind reading more serious literature about the potential sides of tren, you'd know full well that broken sleep and sweating/raised body temperature are extremely common sides, almost to be expected and a sign your gear isn't bunk.
> 
> I mean, I've kind of ignored the whole thing around your "journey" on here, but I really would read/listen to what others have to say if I were you.


 Think I'm getting the mental sides too, today Ive been worried about my partner leaving me and about her cheating on me, causes a genuine anxious feeling

Can't believe it's hitting me so quickly after only 5 days on tren e


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## BlimpThePimp318 (Aug 28, 2017)

1g of test will produce better gains than 200 tren


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## feelinfine (Sep 26, 2017)

Drol said:


> Have you tried test, npp and mast?


 No. Never even considered nandrolone because I am not a mass monster like some of you guys. All I care is about being as lean as possible. Just hardness and separation. Want to see my muscles feathered. I do other stuff aside from weightlifting so I need to maintain a moderate size and not go overboard with the bulking.



smiddy444 said:


> I really, really hate to jump on the "let's have a pop at drwae" train, but if you'd so much as casually read anecdotes on this forum, nevermind reading more serious literature about the potential sides of tren, you'd know full well that broken sleep and sweating/raised body temperature are extremely common sides, almost to be expected and a sign your gear isn't bunk.
> 
> I mean, I've kind of ignored the whole thing around your "journey" on here, but I really would read/listen to what others have to say if I were you.


 I had nightsweats and raised body temp. But found out it was from high e2. When I increased my AI dose, those things went away on my tren cycle. I was also taking caber just in case the entire time.

On the topic of tren... what's the difference between hex and enth on health/sides? I ran hex because that is the only tren my source had. Gave me great results. But my source no longer carries it. So for the future if I were to run tren again, I'd have to get on enth which seems to be twice as cheap. Still have some second thoughts about tren because of the blood work I got back.

Still on the quest of finding something else to stack with test for lean gains. People have suggested winstrol or primo. Read stories of people having major injuries on winstrol because it compromises joint integrity? Not sure how true that is. Primo seems to have all that I am looking for. But price wise is pretty insane. Also thought about just running 400mg test a week with a strict diet for only keepable lean gains. No bloat, etc.


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## SlinMeister (Feb 21, 2017)

Let's say that you use just AAS and not HGH and Slin...

Mmmh I don't think that Tren is a good anabolic if you are not on Peptides.... Instead it's just pure s**t.

A stressed body can't grow well....

You don't like the water from Test Deca? Add Winstrol rotated with high dose Proviron.....

You will have all the good gains from test deca winstrol.

Deca for example binds to Aldosterone and gives you water retention.... Converts to DHN and gives you deca dick, anxiety and so on but if you have high enough dht you won't have any issues at all....

Tren is a mess... it strips Estrogens inside your brain, then you develop bad brain waves and this gives you those well known issues... Solution? High DHT will help with problems.....

I find Tren as and hit hard and stop it AAS.

I prefer to abuse EQ Deca for growth...

On a cut last 4w of Tren will bring you the look to die for.... (Stacked with something to combat flatness)


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## Deltz123 (Oct 8, 2017)

SlinMeister said:


> Let's say that you use just AAS and not HGH and Slin...
> 
> Mmmh I don't think that Tren is a good anabolic if you are not on Peptides.... Instead it's just pure s**t.
> 
> ...


 Eq,deca and all that will not bring you what tren brings you. That being said, they dont bring the super harsh sides too (I dont suffer from extreme sides tho)


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## feelinfine (Sep 26, 2017)

Deltz123 said:


> Eq,deca and all that will not bring you what tren brings you. That being said, they dont bring the super harsh sides too (I dont suffer from extreme sides tho)


 The only sides I suffer are internal - i.e. elevated liver values, cholesterol, etc. I think I am going to do just one more tren cycle, just blast it, then say my farewells. Then just stick to "clean" aas like test, primo and anavar in the future. I plan on doing a cycle every year for the rest of my life. I don't think doing tren long term is worth it, unless you make money off your body.


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## DaPump (Aug 30, 2017)

Frandeman said:


> fu**ing love Tren


 How's the Gyno? :thumb


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## Frandeman (Mar 24, 2014)

DaPump said:


> How's the Gyno? :thumb


 Where you c**t


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## DaPump (Aug 30, 2017)

Frandeman said:


> Where you c**t
> 
> View attachment 147946


 It's gone!! :thumbup1: and still shredded brother!!


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## Deltz123 (Oct 8, 2017)

feelinfine said:


> The only sides I suffer are internal - i.e. elevated liver values, cholesterol, etc. I think I am going to do just one more tren cycle, just blast it, then say my farewells. Then just stick to "clean" aas like test, primo and anavar in the future. I plan on doing a cycle every year for the rest of my life. I don't think doing tren long term is worth it, unless you make money off your body.


 True, I'm contemplating a bit the same.


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## dtmiscool (Aug 12, 2016)

This time around I've upped my caber dose and it's helped so much with my sleep so far.


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## drwae (Jul 25, 2017)

dtmiscool said:


> This time around I've upped my caber dose and it's helped so much with my sleep so far.


 How much tren are you on? do you think id need caber on 400mg tren e?


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## dtmiscool (Aug 12, 2016)

drwae said:


> How much tren are you on? do you think id need caber on 400mg tren e?


 I need caber on as little as 150mg of tren lol

400mg I needed caber 3-4 times a week @ 0.5mg.

Currently on 300mg tren and 300 test.


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## drwae (Jul 25, 2017)

dtmiscool said:


> I need caber on as little as 150mg of tren lol
> 
> 400mg I needed caber 3-4 times a week @ 0.5mg.
> 
> Currently on 300mg tren and 300 test.


 If I wake up ~5 times per night and struggle to get back to sleep for a bit (i think this is making it hard for me to get up in the mornings and making me tired all day) and have vivid dreams about shagging old african women do you think caber would help with this mate?


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## dtmiscool (Aug 12, 2016)

drwae said:


> If I wake up ~5 times per night and struggle to get back to sleep for a bit (i think this is making it hard for me to get up in the mornings and making me tired all day) and have vivid dreams about shagging old african women do you think caber would help with this mate?


 Personally I found that when my prolactin gets out of whack I struggle to sleep more and more to the point I feel like an insomniac.

Keeping my levels lower helps helps me sleep much better. But it's all personal to me. Someone else could be completely different.


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## MrBishi (Mar 10, 2016)

dtmiscool said:


> Personally I found that when my prolactin gets out of whack I struggle to sleep more and more to the point I feel like an insomniac.
> 
> Keeping my levels lower helps helps me sleep much better. But it's all personal to me. Someone else could be completely different.


 I've always had trouble sleeping the last 5 or so years so the Trensomnia is pretty much the same just I wake up sweating too.

Been putting a pound on my Test/Tren (260/525) cycle on 3000 calories, three weeks ago I lost a pound, upped calories to 3250 calories put on five pounds, ate 3000 calories this week with a uncounted "treat" each day, yesterday's was two McDonalds meals... Lost three pounds :confused1: getting stronger and hitting new PRs so I'm chuffed anyway.


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## drwae (Jul 25, 2017)

MrBishi said:


> I've always had trouble sleeping the last 5 or so years so the Trensomnia is pretty much the same just I wake up sweating too.
> 
> Been putting a pound on on 3000 calories, three weeks ago I lost a pound, upped calories to 3250 calories put on five pounds, ate 3000 calories this week with a uncounted "treat" each day, yesterday's was two McDonalds meals... Lost three pounds :confused1: getting stronger and hitting new PRs so I'm chuffed anyway.


 Wish there was a mcdonalds in my town!!! Was visiting family for a few weeks over the summer and hit the gym and then mcdonalds for breakfast every morning


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## MrBishi (Mar 10, 2016)

drwae said:


> Wish there was a mcdonalds in my town!!! Was visiting family for a few weeks over the summer and hit the gym and then mcdonalds for breakfast every morning


 Those new touchscreen machines in McDonalds are great for breakfast. Ditch the butter and cheese and add extra egg to the double sausage & egg mcmuffin x2 :cool2:


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## feelinfine (Sep 26, 2017)

MrBishi said:


> I've always had trouble sleeping the last 5 or so years so the Trensomnia is pretty much the same just I wake up sweating too.


 I found that if I take an edible a few hours before bed, I sleep soundly through out the night. Wake up in the morning refreshed, no sweats, etc. I go for those cbd strains, it really calms me down and makes me feel good. I think it counter acts all the negative sides of tren for me. But your mileage may vary.

I love tren more than my gf. I just want to blast it every cycle but deep down I know that would be stupid. Maybe just one or two more cycles of tren. Still haven't found a good alternative to tren, aside from running ridiculous amounts of primo.


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## Fuzz Lightyear (Sep 20, 2014)

dtmiscool said:


> What doses ya'll enjoy running with your test/tren ratios.
> 
> I use tren for bulking up and usually cut on a cruise.


 To gain i'll do a G of test (cyp or E or mix) a week and i'll start the Tren E @400mgs a week and just gradually up and up and up until the sides Bosh me, then i'll simply take it back down a notch, #mysweetspot!


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## feelinfine (Sep 26, 2017)

What's the highest amount of tren you guys ran per week? I want to run one more tren cycle and really give it my all.

This past cycle I started at 200mg tren hex per week and finished at 300mg. Got some crazy results. But I don't think this tren stuff is good for my health long term.

So I just want to blast it next cycle and take my body to its limit, just out of curiosity. Thought about running it at 500mg/wk.

At 300mg/wk the only side effects I had was increased sweating and this general mental fogginess which is hard to describe but wasn't there before or after the cycle.


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## MrBishi (Mar 10, 2016)

feelinfine said:


> What's the highest amount of tren you guys ran per week? I want to run one more tren cycle and really give it my all.
> 
> So I just want to blast it next cycle and take my body to its limit, just out of curiosity. Thought about running it at 500mg/wk.


 Ive run 500mg on both my Tren (Ace & Enan) cycles so far and experienced no bad mental or nighttime problems (stacked with 200-300mg Testosterone).


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## Frandeman (Mar 24, 2014)

I get good results on 300 mg week :whistling:


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## Carlsandman (Aug 30, 2012)

250-300mg a week Tren and test is ideal for me. All good.


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## Fuzz Lightyear (Sep 20, 2014)

feelinfine said:


> No. Never even considered nandrolone because I am not a mass monster like some of you guys. All I care is about being as lean as possible. Just hardness and separation. Want to see my muscles feathered. I do other stuff aside from weightlifting so I need to maintain a moderate size and not go overboard with the bulking.
> 
> I had nightsweats and raised body temp. But found out it was from high e2. When I increased my AI dose, those things went away on my tren cycle. I was also taking caber just in case the entire time.
> 
> ...


 Winny dries my joints out like hell at anything over 50mg a day bud but you can get all sorts of sups to keep them primed like cod liver/krill oil/magnesium sulphate or something along those lines in tablet form. The 1st time i dabbled with some decent winny i'm not gonna lie i looked Jacked to F**K, it tarnishes the muscles like nothing else and cuts like tren. No s**t i looked nipped up to hell i was Very impressed with how i looked. My arms looked huge i was that tight and hist the shape of me was like i'd been carved by Leonardo Davinci himself. I just wished i had the "before" pics to show you the overall transformation


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