# Not hitting Ketosis



## Mack (Oct 12, 2007)

Hey guys

I'm on the 4th day of a keto diet to kick off my new weight loss, I got some of those ketostix and and I'm still not remotely in Ketosis? Has anyone else had this problem?

I don't mind the diet right now and I don't feel my energy levels are low. In fact I feel excellent. I'm taking loads of fish oils as recommended and I cook my food in some olive oil. Alrhough I haven't cut out the skimmed milk yet.. having it in tea and the ocassional protein shake. Could this be preventing ketosis or is it a matter of time?


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## Tall (Aug 14, 2007)

Mack said:


> Hey guys
> 
> I'm on the 4th day of a keto diet to kick off my new weight loss, I got some of those ketostix and and I'm still not remotely in Ketosis? Has anyone else had this problem?
> 
> I don't mind the diet right now and I don't feel my energy levels are low. In fact I feel excellent. I'm taking loads of fish oils as recommended and I cook my food in some olive oil. Alrhough I haven't cut out the skimmed milk yet.. having it in tea and the ocassional protein shake. Could this be preventing ketosis or is it a matter of time?


Okay without seeing your diet its difficult to say.

From memory ketones are only excreted in your urine when they are not being used for energy by the body.

i.e. its easier for someone with a sedentary lifestyle to 'see' the fact they are in ketosis with ketostix than someone with an active lifestyle.

Are you slowly losing weight each morning after you've been to the toilet?


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## ah24 (Jun 25, 2006)

No expert on the matter....but id imagine it taking longer than 4 days to get into ketosis?

Also, cut the milk...and have pure protein shakes (ones with 0g carbs & fats) they're expensive, but worth it if your wanting to do it properly.


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## Mack (Oct 12, 2007)

I have lost a few pounds over the last four days. I'll see where my weight is tomorrow to see if it has declined or has settled. My diet over the last few days has been eggs, turkey and rump steak. Although admittedly I understand there are some carbs in skimmed milk which I have with my whey protein shakes. I don't think my daily carb intake has exceeded 20 grams to be honest... if that is enough to keep the body out of ketosis.

I didn't think about only excess ketones being in the urine...I have been active as I have been in the gym all four days doing weights.

[EDIT] I use the Promax Whey Protein shake. I will cut the milk to and see how my weight loss progresses.


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## ah24 (Jun 25, 2006)

Mack, can i ask why your using a ketone diet mate?

To be honest going by your avvie i think it would be easier to just take a sub-maintenance calorie diet mixed with a decent training regime and cardio 5-6 days a week to down to say 10%....then, if you want to go lower maybe try a ketosis diet..

Just my humble opinion


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## Tall (Aug 14, 2007)

ah24 said:


> No expert on the matter....but id imagine it taking longer than 4 days to get into ketosis?
> 
> Also, cut the milk...and have pure protein shakes (ones with 0g carbs & fats) they're expensive, but worth it if your wanting to do it properly.


I'm prob speaking out of my bum here but isn't it something like x days where you just drop water and glycogen and then x days to get into ketosis? So ketosis starts in week 2?


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## Mack (Oct 12, 2007)

Interesting that... some sources have said only 48 hours. Some guys say they hit it in four days.


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## Tall (Aug 14, 2007)

Mack said:


> Interesting that... some sources have said only 48 hours. Some guys say they hit it in four days.


You could well be right - all diet stuff seems to blend into one for me


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## ah24 (Jun 25, 2006)

Mack said:


> Interesting that... some sources have said only 48 hours. Some guys say they hit it in four days.


48 hours is the point that your brain *starts* to burn ketones...but your not in full ketosis...but only if you really arent contributing to any blood glucose through diet - which from the standard protein shakes, the milk etc you might not of been doing..

TH&S, yes i think your right...but as said im no expert myself!


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## Mack (Oct 12, 2007)

@ TH&S: you're blending your whole diet!?? 

Those shakes must be well rough.

@ah24: Damn it... I was literally drinking a milk protein shake as I wrote this post!


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## Tall (Aug 14, 2007)

ah24 said:


> 48 hours is the point that your brain *starts* to burn ketones...but your not in full ketosis...but only if you really arent contributing to any blood glucose through diet - which from the standard protein shakes, the milk etc you might not of been doing..
> 
> TH&S, yes i think your right...but as said im no expert myself!


That sounds about right mate and wiki confirmed it.

I got nothing reading on ketostix when I tried em. I just went by the mirror and the missus occasionally said my breath smelled like pear drops / record cleaner.

I only stayed on zero carbs for two weeks though (as I was told to...) - something about raising blood acidity?


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

keto diet's suck as you cannot and will not stay on them for ever, Carb cycling is a much better optoin and you can maintain this type of eating long term.

I will say just by one of your comments that you will find it very hard to reach ketosis whilst drinking milk in your shakes seeing as milk has 5g of carbs per 100ml....

do a search on carb cycling and go from their mate...


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## Mack (Oct 12, 2007)

Thanks mate I'll look into carb cycling as a longer term option definately

[EDIT] I'm going to give ketosis as a go, as much out of pure interest as weight loss so to how effective it is over the next 2 weeks. Having never 'dieted' in my life, it's entirely new to me.


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

you must remember though that in the first few weeks all you will really lose is water as for every 1g of carbs your body absorbs 3g of water...


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## shorty (Mar 13, 2007)

i read a keto diet on here and it stated no more than 6-8g of carbs per meal apart from your post workout meal where you can have carbs and a carb up day..thats the only time.

found it, it was posted by pscarb, and is a very good read, so maybe useful!

Timed Carbs


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## Mack (Oct 12, 2007)

Cheers.. I think the PsiCarb post is where i got the idea from! Carb cycling does seem better in terms of allowing carb-up days. I haven't had a problem going sans carbs for the week but thinking long term it may be a better option. Haven't had a **** in 24 hours on this keto thing... I'm like a 4 a day man usually! I'll see where I'm at on the weekend and then make a decision about what to do next week. I have upped my fats with the EPA fish oils, so this in conjunction with dropping the milk from my protein shakes should bring me toward ketosis.

I train 5 days a week and understand weight loss with carb cycling is more effective with only a 3 day routine because of the no carb days when you don't train? So for me that would be 5 days of post-workout carbs (maltodextrin, dextrose..) and a 40/30/30 meal in the evening... I don't think that would leave anytime for Zero carb days or carb-up days unless I extend it to a 9 day diet cycle. Any ideas on that?


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## Durk (Sep 16, 2007)

You don't want any more than 'trace' on your keto sticks, and the colour change is so slight, hard to detect with the naked eye sometimes.

If your keto sticks turn bright purple, that is a state of ketoacidosis, which is dangerous.

Your body will start using ketone bodies as fuel, so that is why you don't excrete a lot of them.

Also, milk is FULL of carbs that will slow the body going into ketosis.

PSCarb is right, this type of diet is really only a comp diet technique, and not really suitable for most people in the long run.

People often get quite a bit of rebound after doing ketosis, or muscle loss if they don't do a re-feed or have a high carb day.


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

you do not want to run zero carb days this is very bad for muscle building or even maintaining muscle...


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## Mack (Oct 12, 2007)

I'm now in my second day of ketosis. I think upping the fats tipped me over.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Well, there is probably more than one reason you are not getting into ketosis.

For one I would drop the skim milk, skim milk is very low in fat and higher in carbs than regular milk, so drop that, and yes this by itself can keep you out of ketosis as the lactose is a carbohydrate.

Second it could take a bit longer than a couple or few days, keto diets are really telling the body to turn from being a sugar burner to a fat burner, keeping in some carbs will short cut this even more.

Third, you probably are not taking in enough fats, on keto diets there is no set requirements for fats, or which ones for that matter, so up the fat and drop the milk.

I know many guys dont like keto diets, I do but that is just me, many people including myself fend very well on them as I dont get hungry and start binge eating. Ketogenic diets I feel I have unlimited energy on, more than carbohydrates in the mix. This is probably due to spiking of blood sugars and insulin which will store the meal.

You will lose alot of water on a keto diet, that is ok, but you will have to add in some fiber as keto diets are known to have problems with bowel movements.

As paul suggested 1 gram of carbs holds 3 grams of water, 1 gram of fats hold .5 grams of water, this is a huge diffrence.

One other problem with keto diets is after long periods of time you tend to have elivated cortisol, magnolia root helps block cortisol as well as the ones over the counter products.

For the stubbern guys that find dieting hard, keto diets are good for them, keto diets are not pre-contest diets but more for the people that dont train.

Test the first pee in the morning, this is where you will get your most accurate measurement on keto sticks.

Good luck


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Durk said:


> If your keto sticks turn bright purple, that is a state of ketoacidosis, which is dangerous.


This rarely happens with keto diets, unless you are an alcoholic or diabetic where ketoacidosis is something to worry about.

Keto diets have been studied for almost 150 years and I can give refrences if you like on that.


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

Scott all types of milk in the UK have 5g of carbs per 100ml in the states you can probably buy low carb and low fat milk though...


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Pscarb said:


> Scott all types of milk in the UK have 5g of carbs per 100ml in the states you can probably buy low carb and low fat milk though...


Sorry Paul, I dont know how much 100ml is off hand.......

When we make refrences to a glass of anything it is 8oz. unless you are talking beer then it is 12oz......How confusing eh? 

We deal in oz. in the States, I know it is a bit arcaic but.......

If you drop your carbs below 20g a day, up the fats, to some extent you will get into ketosis.


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

agreed on the ketosis mate this is why i mentoined that drinking milk was not the way to go


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## Mack (Oct 12, 2007)

I'm between 13 stone 10 and 14 stone at the moment, so in total I have lost about half a stone since I started looking at my diet. I found the first week of experimenting with keto wasn't that effective with little weight loss... although admittedly that was down to necking skimmed milk protein shakes a couple times a day. After cutting that out and taking EPA fish oil tablets (1000MG) with meals I eventually hit mild ketosis at the end of the week (Day 5-6).

At the weekend I had some carbs as I felt I needed a break, but didn't go overboard. I understand thats supposed to do something with thyroid levels. So I'm giving it another go this week... started off with a protein shake with water and had a 5 egg scrambled eggs with smoke salmon so far today. My aim is suppose is initially to cut down to 13 stone dead.

Does anyone recommend the amount of fish oil EPA to take? I have a large tub of the stuff and although the RDA is like 3000MG I get the impression I shoulds exceed this dose?

Also, I like to have some grated cheddar with my eggs.. not alot, but just enough. What's your opinion on this with a Keto? Should be alright?

Also, what sort of carlorie intake should I aim at? I'm 5'10" and circa <14 stone and hitting the gym 5 times a week and started introducing 20 mins HIIT cardio after my workouts.

[EDIT] cheers - sorry for all the questions... I'd like to see 13 stone by christmas day if possible and hold onto the limited muscle I've managed to put on my once skinny frame =)


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Cheese on keto diets are just fine, fish oils are ok too and generally 6-12 a day is pretty much average, more if you suffer from inflammation.

Thing with keto diets is this, on a keto diet you get your energy from fats, that is not a problem due to fats are actually more efficient than carbs (hence why some feel so good on keto diets due to stable blood sugars), it basicly tells the body to burn fat for fuel, this is one reason why it works so well for some as it taps into fat stores for fuel.

Many that do resistance training use carbs to re-supply glycogen stores, this can be done but you have to modify that diet on a certain day for about 2 meals.

If you do glycogen loading, then the protein drops and so does the fats as you are taking in carbs for about 2 meals.

This will re-feed the glycogen stores and also keep the thyorid firing and also cortisol at bay as insulin is anabolic and cortisol is catabolic.


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## Durk (Sep 16, 2007)

hackskii said:


> Sorry Paul, I dont know how much 100ml is off hand.......
> 
> When we make refrences to a glass of anything it is 8oz. unless you are talking beer then it is 12oz......How confusing eh?
> 
> ...


I would experiment with the amount of carbs............

I go into ketosis with 50-70 g of carbs/day.


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## dudeson (May 8, 2007)

I usually try to carb cycle as much as I can, not just for dieting purposes. It seems like a good way for me to avoid gaining fat while putting on muscle. I would do higher carb days when doing heavy presses 3 or 4 low days then a medium day when I would do my legs. This was a very easy to stick with, and once I started throwing in regular cardio, I actually would burn fat. So, it seems carb cycling is the way to go, but for now I am really trying to focus on losing body fat so the keto diet seems to be helping a lot.


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## kaz28 (May 4, 2008)

Carb cycling if fab! I am following the one Pscarb posted. Works fab for me, put on weight but body fat levels have dropped already. Energy levels are good also. I would definatly recommend carb cycling over this one anyday (not that I have tried the keto one). Just wanted to put my 2pennies worth in.


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

glad it is working for you Kaz


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## irwit (Mar 29, 2007)

kaz28 said:


> I would definatly recommend carb cycling over this one anyday (not that I have tried the keto one). Just wanted to put my 2pennies worth in.


How can you reccomend one over the other when you have only tried one >???

Im giving keto a try, day 1 and all good. Loving the coconut milk in my shake, well tastey but its smells like ass !


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

i have tried both in fact i have tried loads of diets and carb cycling is much better both short and long term.....the main problem with keto diets is that one day you will re-introduce cars back into your diet and the rebound will be a b1tch


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Pscarb said:


> i have tried both in fact i have tried loads of diets and carb cycling is much better both short and long term.....the main problem with keto diets is that one day you will re-introduce cars back into your diet and the rebound will be a b1tch


Oh man, the rebound is pretty killer.....lol


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