# Anavar Cycle Length?



## SonOfZeus (Feb 15, 2009)

Hi,

I'm 3.5 weeks into my Var cycle, I have enough for a total of 16 weeks. It's ROHM Var, 50mg tabs. Running it @ 100mg a day atm.

Now Ausbuilt reccomended running a cycle of 12 even upto 16 weeks.. Don't want to sound like I'm doubting him, but just wanted more feedback on that? Peoples thoughts? Also would a 4 week PCT still be sufficient for a cycle of that length? So far in the cycle I've been maintaining more then anything tbh, strength has gone up a very nice amount though so far!! But starting a proper solid cut as of tomorrow.. Calories 2000-2250, protein 200g minimum to 250g a day, carbs relatively low, around 100g, fats around 50-70g per day.

Personally i'd like to run the full 16 weeks if it's not going to do any harm, given Anavar is relatively mild for an oral.. thoughts?

P.s. First cycle btw. Started November 1st.. Think I'm sat @ around 20ish BF% atm, hence I'd like to run the var for a long time whilst I cut my BF% right down to maintain as much muscle mass as possible, and also keep strength up.


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

there are studies that say 30 weeks on 50mg oxymetholone 3x day (so 150mg) day is safe and effective:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8785183

and anavar is far milder than oxymetholone....

but the only way for you to be sure is have liver funciton tests- Ive had quite a few over the last 6months..


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## Fatstuff (Mar 2, 2010)

The biggest risk from running var for that long is bankruptcy, starvation from inability to buy food, dehydration from not paying water bill


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

Fatstuff said:


> The biggest risk from running var for that long is bankruptcy, starvation from inability to buy food, dehydration from not paying water bill


i've said it many times.. womans drug, not magic for fat loss; winstrol is far cheaper and more effective (ask ben johnson! LOL) its diet and workouts that burn fat.. any AAS will hold muscle while you drop fat.. test does it best.. but really any AAS will do...


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## apple (Feb 16, 2011)

For the gains over 16 weeks is it worth the money ? IMO ...no


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## Fatstuff (Mar 2, 2010)

Low dose dbol would probably cost 1/10th of var cycle lol


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

apple said:


> For the gains over 16 weeks is it worth the money ? IMO ...no


i agree.. hence say use winstrol... half the price and better for men..



Fatstuff said:


> Low dose dbol would probably cost 1/10th of var cycle lol


true, but from his other post on gyno, thats what he might have in his UGL anavar tubs...

at any rate, i've never come across a site where so many people bang on about the mildness of anavar as an oral... how can it be more mild than other orals- its well established that what makes an oral liver toxic is the 17-alpha alkylation.. which ALL common oral steroids have to survive first pass of the liver!!!

so why is anavar milder than winny or d-bol or oxys from a toxicity perspective? its dose dependent... in the order mentioned anavar was originally released as a 2.5mg tab, winny as a 5mg tab, d-bol as a 5mg tab, oxys as a 50mg/tab.. based on cost no one ran 50mg of anavar... most did 20-50mg of winny, but you could easily do 50-200mg of oxys.. based on price alone..

so course of very expensive anavar tended to be lower dose than cheap winny,d-bol and oxy... really 3 oxys or 30 d-bol tabs? most people baulk at throwing back 30tabs.. so very few did 150mg of d-bol, but loads did 150mg of oxys..

their is a dose dependent curve to toxicity, no doubt; but they are all equally toxic mg for mg as they ALL have the SAME 17-alpha alklyation...


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## apple (Feb 16, 2011)

ausbuilt said:


> i agree.. hence say use winstrol... half the price and better for men..
> 
> true, but from his other post on gyno, thats what he might have in his UGL anavar tubs...
> 
> ...


Couldn't agree more

Good post


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## Fatstuff (Mar 2, 2010)

ausbuilt said:


> i agree.. hence say use winstrol... half the price and better for men..
> 
> true, but from his other post on gyno, thats what he might have in his UGL anavar tubs...
> 
> ...


So if I could handle the sides 50mg of superdrol would be no more liver toxic than one oxy?


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

apple said:


> Couldn't agree more
> 
> Good post


thanks, coming from you thats good to hear!

i just don't get the UKM obsession with Anavar... I get that all AAS have different characteristics, and if you're after, low water retention, no aromatisation then winny is as good as anavar for men.. better as a little more androgenic (marginal though for a man); however for women, sure anavar or primobolan acetate are good choice, though few realise that all though NPP is more androgenic on paper, women do very well on it as its more appropirate for their bodies- i.e its progesterone based; but its not oral, so anavar or primo it is...

But for men... anavar really.. what waste of money..


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

Fatstuff said:


> So if I could handle the sides 50mg of superdrol would be no more liver toxic than one oxy?


the toxicity is related to 17-alpha alklation; however, i accept that drugs like d-bol aromatise etc; not commenting on other sides, just toxicity. If superdrol has 17-alpha alkylation than mg for mg its the same toxicity as any other oral AAS (except of course andriol which is testosterone undecanoate and absorbed lymphatically prior to liver first pass)


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## apple (Feb 16, 2011)

The hardness/strenth and pumps i got from 100mgs winnny ed were unreal ...


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## Fatstuff (Mar 2, 2010)

Winny made me strong as fvck but sore joints were quite harsh


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## Barker (Oct 1, 2009)

Dont mean to hijack but was considering anavar for a first cycle, but after reading your posts Aus im not so sure, so many people sa its not worth the money.

One thing i am sure of i dont want anything full on for my first try. I want something with the least sides, even if that means i dont gain loads, i dot want to blow up anyway. Any suggestions? Was originally thinking var or epistane


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## Fatstuff (Mar 2, 2010)

Barker said:


> Dont mean to hijack but was considering anavar for a first cycle, but after reading your posts Aus im not so sure, so many people sa its not worth the money.
> 
> One thing i am sure of i dont want anything full on for my first try. I want something with the least sides, even if that means i dont gain loads, i dot want to blow up anyway. Any suggestions? Was originally thinking var or epistane


Low/moderate dose m drol will see some nice lean gains imo


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## Barker (Oct 1, 2009)

Fatstuff said:


> Low/moderate dose m drol will see some nice lean gains imo


With very little sides? Will look into it cheers

Id like to compete natty but if im not a lean 14 stone by summer i saying balls to it and getting big for my own self confidence etc


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## Fatstuff (Mar 2, 2010)

Only sides I got was back pumps, touch of constipation and was shut down, but it's only a 4 week cycle and found it fairly easy to bounce back from.


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## Barker (Oct 1, 2009)

Fatstuff said:


> Only sides I got was back pumps, touch of constipation and was shut down, but it's only a 4 week cycle and found it fairly easy to bounce back from.


Hmm i tend to get back pumps anyway which arent comfortable one of the reasons im staying clear of dbol, i have more research to do, ive done loads, but theres so many contradictions on here its hard to get solid info.


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## Fatstuff (Mar 2, 2010)

Most sides are manageable anyway, supplementing with taurine helps with back pumps and plenty of fluid


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## SonOfZeus (Feb 15, 2009)

Already got and paid for the Var now anyway so.. also, I know winstrol can induce hair loss, not sure if I'm prone to this or if/how you can find out before using? But I certainly don't want to risk it and find out the hard way either!


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## SonOfZeus (Feb 15, 2009)

Also just looking at a couple of sources, given the price I got the Var for and the fact they're 50mg per tab opposed to 10mg which a lot of Var + winny is, it's barely cheaper if any cheaper to get Winny as an alternative anyway!


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## SonOfZeus (Feb 15, 2009)

Wasn't cheap by any means.. Source is very well known and reliable as far as I'm concerned and getting fake ROHM? Doubtful.. Blood good fakes if they are too!


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## Nickthegreek (Jan 27, 2011)

Sorry for jacking this but what do you guys think about running 12 weeks of winny at 50 mg ed with test and mast ? Is that too long ? Was planning 8 weeks but want to extend to 12 .


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## SonOfZeus (Feb 15, 2009)

You have no idea how much I paid.. tbh think it's more like my sources for winny are expensive, as Dbol can get for MUCH cheaper - but don't plan to ever use that tbh. Would be Tbol when I bulk, much better compound IMO! Nick, why don't you run 6 on Winny and then 12 on Test, and what kind of test are you planning on running? Thinking of doing 12 weeks of Test-E at either 400 or 600mg E/W next year, maybe with a 4-6 week TBol kickstart.


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## Nickthegreek (Jan 27, 2011)

SonOfZeus said:


> You have no idea how much I paid.. tbh think it's more like my sources for winny are expensive, as Dbol can get for MUCH cheaper - but don't plan to ever use that tbh. Would be Tbol when I bulk, much better compound IMO! Nick, why don't you run 6 on Winny and then 12 on Test, and what kind of test are you planning on running? Thinking of doing 12 weeks of Test-E at either 400 or 600mg E/W next year, maybe with a 4-6 week TBol kickstart.


Doing 12 weeks of test prop and mast 100 mg of each EOD. Have been running oral winny at 50 mg ED along side. Was planning to run the winny up to 8 weeks and then for the last four weeks just the test and mast. I'v got some quality Pharma Grade test for this cycle.


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

SonOfZeus said:


> Already got and paid for the Var now anyway so.. also, I know winstrol can induce hair loss, not sure if I'm prone to this or if/how you can find out before using? But I certainly don't want to risk it and find out the hard way either!


why does winstrol induce hair loss? over say, var, or proviron?

You see the reason winstrol "promotes hair loss" came from women using it; its slightly more androgenic than var, not enough for men to notice, but for women, noticeable at 20mg day + (many girls run 20mg var/day). Problem is at that dosage, it was androgenic enough to give those who had a genetic predisposition to MPB (if they where men) to start shedding hair...

You see anavar, wintrol and proviron are ALL DHT derivatives.. with var being the weakest/worst fit for the DHT receptors, proviron the best (hence gives you wood and make you ****, but also shed if you have MPB) and winny is in the middle somewhere, but closer in effect to var for men, and closer in effect to proviron for women (in terms of DHT effects)

That being said, 100mg of var will make you shed more than say 50mg winny as although weaker at binding, there'd be more var circulating... so you cant make absolute statements about these compounds..


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## Ben Stiller (Nov 24, 2011)

Oxandrolone has been very well researched in treatment of sarcopenia on non training men over 65 years old. It increases FFM up to 3kgs and reduces FM up to 2kgs without training or specific diet. Strength is also increased during treatment. Post treatment FFM gains and strength gains are all lost back to baseline levels, but the fatloss remains. 6 weeks gives about 90% of the results of 12 weeks. Dosages of 20/40 and 60mg were researched inhibition of HPTA increased with dosage. 20mg ED showed very little LH reduction, which is why the oral is dubbed 'mild'.

Anavar is very usefull in low dosages for olders athletes. 20mg for six weeks with six weeks off to be exact. No need for PCT on these dosages. Taking more makes little sense since HPTA inhibition increases as well as dose dependend liver toxicity, which makes a case for other more androgenic AAS which will give you more gains and comparable sides as stated above.

To go back to your question, stick to 6 weeks with six weeks off using some type of natural T-stimulant or clomid of you want. After that go back to your anavar for another six weeks. If you continue to do this you will gain more in the long run then staying on for 12 weeks is my guess. The latter has not been researched though.


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## miggs (Jan 8, 2011)

Nickthegreek said:


> Doing 12 weeks of test prop and mast 100 mg of each EOD. Have been running oral winny at 50 mg ED along side. Was planning to run the winny up to 8 weeks and then for the last four weeks just the test and mast. I'v got some quality Pharma Grade test for this cycle.


That's my next cycle, but was going to kick start with d-Bol at 40-60mg for 5 weeks then the last 5 weeks of winny at 50mg ed.


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## apple (Feb 16, 2011)

miggs said:


> That's my next cycle, but was going to kick start with d-Bol at 40-60mg for 5 weeks then the last 5 weeks of winny at 50mg ed.


No need to kick start short esters with dbol buddy on general dbol is used to kick start longer esters like Enanthate

Saying that you can still add dbol to your cycle no problem


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## wee-chris (Oct 29, 2011)

100mg var for 9 weeks was expensive but the result was awesome. Yes test would of got me stronger etc but var gave me that mens heallh look. But for roughly the same price im running test and tren at the minute and loving it!


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

Ben Stiller said:


> Oxandrolone has been very well researched in treatment of sarcopenia on non training men over 65 years old. It increases FFM up to 3kgs and reduces FM up to 2kgs without training or specific diet. Strength is also increased during treatment. Post treatment FFM gains and strength gains are all lost back to baseline levels, but the fatloss remains. 6 weeks gives about 90% of the results of 12 weeks. Dosages of 20/40 and 60mg were researched inhibition of HPTA increased with dosage. 20mg ED showed very little LH reduction, which is why the oral is dubbed 'mild'.
> 
> Anavar is very usefull in low dosages for olders athletes. 20mg for six weeks with six weeks off to be exact. No need for PCT on these dosages. Taking more makes little sense since HPTA inhibition increases as well as dose dependend liver toxicity, which makes a case for other more androgenic AAS which will give you more gains and comparable sides as stated above.
> 
> To go back to your question, stick to 6 weeks with six weeks off using some type of natural T-stimulant or clomid of you want. After that go back to your anavar for another six weeks. If you continue to do this you will gain more in the long run then staying on for 12 weeks is my guess. The latter has not been researched though.


i actually agree- 20mg/day 6 weeks, unlikely to noticeable suppress HPTA... there is one problem with that- its enough to fix up 65 yo men to be a little sprightlier (i"ve seen my dad's test levels on a blood test... whoa they get low at that age!!!)

However, girls take 10-20mg/day var for bikini comp... a guy in his 20s will not notice it... yes its mild, and designed to be used at a mg/kg dose that works for women and children... and if used at the doses that don't suppress hpta.. i doubt a 16-25 yo guy would notice he took any....


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## Ben Stiller (Nov 24, 2011)

With oxandrolone showing more anabolic properties than testosterone per mg and natural test not being suppressed at that dosage you could be wrong. Adding test e at 250 mg ew does make more sense though at that age and that combo has been researched as well giving 8 kgs of FFM in younger men. The same as 500mg test e ew. Just goes to show the possible effect of 20mg of oxandrolone. This would be a good novice cycle imo. Get your dad some anavar..


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

Ben Stiller said:


> With oxandrolone showing more anabolic properties than testosterone per mg and natural test not being suppressed at that dosage you could be wrong. Adding test e at 250 mg ew does make more sense though at that age and that combo has been researched as well giving 8 kgs of FFM in younger men. The same as 500mg test e ew. Just goes to show the possible effect of 20mg of oxandrolone. This would be a good novice cycle imo. Get your dad some anavar..


no way will 20mg of anavar and 250mg test give the same result as 500mg of test.. simple maths here my friend:

20mgx7days is 140mg/week, plus 250mg/week test= 390mg AAS/week. EVEN IF the var was as anabolic as test (and as androgenic) no way does 390mg of AAS give better results than 500mg/week...

Before you bring up natural test levels, 250mg/week test e was trialled as the "male contraceptive" as after 12 weeks, testicular function was said to be depleted enough to not have children in the majority of fertile age test subjects, and nearly all after 16weeks at that dose..

You fundamentally misunderstand the anabolic/androgen ratio; originally measured by weighing the weight of the levator ani muscle (involuntary tail wagging muscle in species such as mice, rats, dogs..) and in this case rats, against prostate enlargement/weight increase.

With test as reference 1:1 other AAS where judged against the reference. so when some drugs have an more of anabolic effect than androgen effect, like anavar the muscle grew more than the prostate..

HOWEVER.. what was NOT measured? the relative muscle growth BETWEEN the various AAS... they ONLY measured the RELATIVE growth of the muscle to the prostate, NOT the ABSOLUTE growth of the muscle between the different steroids... go look up the original methodologies...

This is EASILY observed in practice- if a BB takes 100mg/day of anavar, he DOES not put on as much weight as he does when taking 100mg /Day of Anapolon/Andadrol-50.. or 700mg/week of Test...

Further more, if you consult the BNF (british national formulary, which is what Dr's Prescribe out of) the only AAS for women is Nandrolone.. which according to the OLD Anabolic/androgenic ratios is more androgenic than anavar.. the reason? its BETTER at depositing calcium on bones (i.e was prescribed for osteperosis, and although superseded, is still available for this purpose) and better building muscle.. AND is better tolerated by women, as its a PROGESTERONE derivative.. and by the NEW ratios is rated as 1:2.5 down to 1:4, which now overlaps with anavar..

Also, in HUMANS and not RATS, ALL AAS are markedly androgenic, much more so than in Rats..

See also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anabolic_steroid

look under the heading anabolic to androgenic effects; you will note oxandrolone is now under new methods rated anywhere from 1:3 androgen/anabolic up to 1:13 (individual effects differ); and oxymetholone (traditionally called such a strong androgen) is also at 1:3...



Empire Boy said:


> I got my 64 year old Mom on 10mg of Var ed for 8 weeks. She enjoyed it and had much better workouts, improved her LBM...a 64 year old woman, 10mg of var, ed, 8 weeks...puts that 20mg ed in perspective...


my girl does 10mg/day, just looks toned.. you'd need to be prepubescent as a male to notice 20mg..


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

Empire Boy said:


> And that was his short answer I'd wager
> 
> Awesome info on the anabolic and androgenic ratio Aus. I had no idea how they determined the ratios; very cool stuff.
> 
> Too bad we don't have tails right Ben Stiller? Then var at 20mg ed might be pretty good!


ah sorry..

it IS the short version, its 2:30 and I'm supposed to get up at 6:30 to go train! so no time to reference everything... but get annoyed when people start quoting anabolic/androgen ratios without understanding why its not applicable directly...

the original 60s methodologies where not great.. so people quote superdrol or whatever it si as like some number in the '000s:1 anabolic: androgenic.. if it where true all the monster would live on 1x tab a day... its rubbish- becuase the methodology never measured absolute anabolic effect across the drugs, only the relative effect on the muscle to prostate.. so fundamental, but every keeps quoting these ratios...

and you know rats are a model for medical effects, they are not people and ultimately drug studies are carried out on human test populations, but this was not done for anabolic/androgenic ratio for people..


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## SonOfZeus (Feb 15, 2009)

May just up the dosage to 150mg a day for a while then and run a shorter cycle.. hmmm!


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

Empire Boy said:


> Get yourself to bed you old git! I'm only up as I can putz around in the home office tomorrow (and I'm still winding down from post 'slin...it was a struggle tonight...). If I kept your schedule I'd place another wager that I would collapse from exhaustion the first day!


i keep modafinil in the draw with my nootropics for days when it gets to me...


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## SonOfZeus (Feb 15, 2009)

I take it you like the sound of the 150mg a day Ausbuilt? That'd be 4 weeks at 100mg which I've almost done, then another 8 weeks at 150mg a day.. Finishing my cycle at the end of January. Is a 4 week PCT still sufficient for a cycle of that length..?


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## Fatstuff (Mar 2, 2010)

ausbuilt said:


> i keep modafinil in the draw with my nootropics for days when it gets to me...


Do u get anything from modafinil!


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## Fatstuff (Mar 2, 2010)

No, I haven't but I find that kind of thing interesting and would like to find something to perk me up when I'm working 12 hour nights, but something that uplifts my mood and something I can sleep on (I know, I don't want much lol)


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## Ben Stiller (Nov 24, 2011)

ausbuilt said:


> no way will 20mg of anavar and 250mg test give the same result as 500mg of test.. simple maths here my friend:
> 
> 20mgx7days is 140mg/week, plus 250mg/week test= 390mg AAS/week. EVEN IF the var was as anabolic as test (and as androgenic) no way does 390mg of AAS give better results than 500mg/week...
> 
> ...


Based on your math it would be an issue of just mgs and that is not the only factor. Also net weight gain is not the end goal, muscle gain is. The 20 mg anavar & 250 mg test has been researched giving the same outcome as 500 mg of test. It is not an opinion, just stating facts. I know the anabolic to androgenic ratio is relative. In absolute terms testosteron rankes higher then anavar for sure. But the net effect of 250 mg test ew and 500 mg ew is not 1:2. Based on research you have different options leading to approx. same results and with the anavar test combo possibly less estrgenic side effects. And yes 250 mg test ew suppresses hpta quite nicely you are right.


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## Ben Stiller (Nov 24, 2011)

20, 40, 60 and 80 mgs ed have all been researched. Results increase with dosage but not proportionally, but more importantly anavars non supressing quality at low dosages is lost with higher dosages. So you end up with liver stress and hpta suppression with a mild androgen and mild anabolic. Why not use something stronger at half of the price. Anything 17 alpha alkylated will give you more igf so take some oxy's if you will. This is also why the combo var and test at 20/250 will do the same as 500 mg test. Zeus taking 150 mgs after four weeks of 100 will do nothing extra. Just go for the 6 weeks, take some nolva for 4 and go again. Anavar is great for older athletes with no history of aas use at low dosage. No sides and no need for pct. If you want more mgs take something else.


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## Ben Stiller (Nov 24, 2011)

Great wikipedia link btw. Thank you.


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## Ben Stiller (Nov 24, 2011)

I think that was a pose... At least I still have my pants on..


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## wee-chris (Oct 29, 2011)

ive done 100mg for 9 weeks and 75mg for 8 weeks, cant say there was a massive difference. I loved var but i thinkto get the most from it you would have to have a fairly low bf%.


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

Ben Stiller said:


> Based on your math it would be an issue of just mgs and that is not the only factor. Also net weight gain is not the end goal, muscle gain is. The 20 mg anavar & 250 mg test has been researched giving the same outcome as 500 mg of test. It is not an opinion, just stating facts. I know the anabolic to androgenic ratio is relative. In absolute terms testosteron rankes higher then anavar for sure. But the net effect of 250 mg test ew and 500 mg ew is not 1:2. Based on research you have different options leading to approx. same results and with the anavar test combo possibly less estrgenic side effects. And yes 250 mg test ew suppresses hpta quite nicely you are right.


not just maths.. 500mg of test will give more muscle mass than 20mg anavar and 250mg test.. however, you are are correct in that its not a linear response curve.

The body is a funny thing, not just for AAS; the body produces 24.3 mcg of t3; when you take 50mcg of t3, you effectively have 3times the normal rate floating around.. but you know what... you don't get much leaner.. in fact to get a noticeable difference you need 100-150mcg.. and even then, it certainly doesnt shed weight as if you've "doubled" your metabolism (as you still need to diet strictly and do cardio)..

From an AAS perspective, at anything less than 1g of test/week, the effects are lets say, most people would never even pick you took anything...



Ben Stiller said:


> 20, 40, 60 and 80 mgs ed have all been researched. Results increase with dosage but not proportionally, but more importantly anavars non supressing quality at low dosages is lost with higher dosages. So you end up with liver stress and hpta suppression with a mild androgen and mild anabolic. Why not use something stronger at half of the price. Anything 17 alpha alkylated will give you more igf so take some oxy's if you will. This is also why the combo var and test at 20/250 will do the same as 500 mg test. Zeus taking 150 mgs after four weeks of 100 will do nothing extra. Just go for the 6 weeks, take some nolva for 4 and go again. Anavar is great for older athletes with no history of aas use at low dosage. No sides and no need for pct. If you want more mgs take something else.


correct, and as i've stated a lot on this forum, the only way anavar is 'mild" on the liver, is becuase it was made in 2.5mg tabs and used at 1-4 tabs/day.. so of course its mild.. but its c-17 alpha alkylated, and mg for mg as hard on the liver as any other steriod, and gets more suppressive with increased doses.. as you correctly state.. not disputing any of this at all... my only point here is, girls get an effect from 10-20mg/day anavar (even girls dont gain muscle on 5mg), and men who are active certainly wont.

Anavar is nothing special for muscle quality; if you take d-bol or oxys, you don't bloat either, if you are on a low carb diet- water retention (except for aromatisation, but of course you take an AI for that right?) is purely diet dependent..


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

wee-chris said:


> ive done 100mg for 9 weeks and 75mg for 8 weeks, cant say there was a massive difference. I loved var but i thinkto get the most from it you would have to have a fairly low bf%.


people miss the point, anavar barely makes muscle mass, it makes you stronger; its a favourite of weight class athletes as they get stronger, but not much bigger...


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

daniel_3855 said:


> didnt think that var would cause much stress on the liver, ive ran it every year for the last 4 years at 100mg/ed for 12weeks+, and the start of next year will be running it for 16 weeks at 100mg/ed, and i also adding in 50mg/winny ed for the last 8 weeks ontop..
> 
> i also run a low dose test 250mg/wk every time. without the test i get half the benefits from the var.
> 
> ...


liver stress is relative, i cycle 150mg/day oxys month on/month off, on top of a base of 3.6g of AAS as injections, and in past 7 months now, never had a LFT with readings out of the range..

mg for mg there is no diff between anavar and oxys for liver toxicity because, its the same c-17 alpha alkylation for them... and thats the liver stress. medical fact.


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## Ben Stiller (Nov 24, 2011)

ausbuilt said:


> not just maths.. 500mg of test will give more muscle mass than 20mg anavar and 250mg test.. however, you are are correct in that its not a linear response curve.
> 
> The body is a funny thing, not just for AAS; the body produces 24.3 mcg of t3; when you take 50mcg of t3, you effectively have 3times the normal rate floating around.. but you know what... you don't get much leaner.. in fact to get a noticeable difference you need 100-150mcg.. and even then, it certainly doesnt shed weight as if you've "doubled" your metabolism (as you still need to diet strictly and do cardio)..
> 
> ...


I like reading your posts and you know your stuff but the statement in bold, let's just say that that is a pure subjective opinion, and in my view totally wrong. No disrespect! Maybe your androgen receptors are saturated by cycling to long or whatever, but I have been doing this aas thing for quit some time and more mgs do not give more results based on my own personal experience. We have a team of athetes in my own gym and everything is open as far as aas is concirned. 500mgs of test ew is the standard, sometimes 675, sometimes some masteron added to end the cycle or some tabs in the beginning and these guys grow like weeds, even on their fourth or fifth cycle. I do have to say on time is off time at least, most guys cycle once a year leading up to major competitions. You have read research by Bhasin on test for sure, 600mgs ew is the cut off point.


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## Hotdog147 (Oct 15, 2011)

daniel_3855 said:


> didnt think that var would cause much stress on the liver, ive ran it every year for the last 4 years at 100mg/ed for 12weeks+, and the start of next year will be running it for 16 weeks at 100mg/ed, and i also adding in 50mg/winny ed for the last 8 weeks ontop..
> 
> i also run a low dose test 250mg/wk every time. without the test i get half the benefits from the var.
> 
> ...


What test do you run the var with mate??


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## Ben Stiller (Nov 24, 2011)

Empire Boy said:


> You're missing the point...*MOST* PEOPLE WOULD NOT NOTICE. You, yourself would notice at 1 gram or less; and those you train with would probably notice. Your athletic performance would certainly improve on a gram or less. BUT w/o cycles over 1+ gram of test stacked with say a 19nor and a good oral like oxys, along with GH and insulin, you aren't going to get SO HUGE that EVERYBODY starts noticing a difference in your physique that would attribute to AAS use. This is what the man is trying to say...*MOST* people would not NOTICE at a gram or less...
> 
> It seems you are just picking arguments now to make arguments. I'm 95kg (210 lbs) and 11% bf. I look perfectly normal and fit. Nobody at work or my family thinks 'yeah, he is on AAS'. Nobody would jump and say I cycled 100mg test prop eod and tren ace 50mg ed my last cycle. As those amounts are under a gram. Get what Aus is saying their chief? Or do you still want to argue?
> 
> We get it. You know about AAS; you have a gym; you train athletes; you're looking for respect. But just help people without being a know it all cock about it, no need for puffery. Constructive arguments can be helpful. Say if I feel that CJC 1295 w/DAC is better for women and lets say and Aus feels otherwise. But when you keep beating a dead horse...


It is not about arguing for the sake arguing at all. Maybe I come across as such but english is not my first language so you get this formal classroom english from me. I am looking to learn something new. That's it, as well as spend some free time rambling about training and roids. First thing I notice is the dosages a lot of guys use on this forum. They are massive. I don't see much of this over here. It's not to judge at all but someone reading the post thinking it all starts at a gram will be misinformed, or so I think to know from expercience. But you have a point, experiences differ and it is not about being right or wrong. I get that. I am just saying something different. I get your point though about beating a dead horse too, but still this is a forum not? Respectfully disagree or something like that. No bad intention at all.


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

Empire Boy said:


> You're missing the point...*MOST* PEOPLE WOULD NOT NOTICE. You, yourself would notice at 1 gram or less; and those you train with would probably notice. Your athletic performance would certainly improve on a gram or less. BUT w/o cycles over 1+ gram of test stacked with say a 19nor and a good oral like oxys, along with GH and insulin, you aren't going to get SO HUGE that EVERYBODY starts noticing a difference in your physique that would attribute to AAS use. This is what the man is trying to say...*MOST* people would not NOTICE at a gram or less...
> 
> It seems you are just picking arguments now to make arguments. I'm 95kg (210 lbs) and 11% bf. I look perfectly normal and fit. Nobody at work or my family thinks 'yeah, he is on AAS'. Nobody would jump and say I cycled 100mg test prop eod and tren ace 50mg ed my last cycle. As those amounts are under a gram.


yep that is it exactly.... not saying 500-600mg is a waste of time, but results are such that most "civilians" think thats how you get from drinking protein powder... whereas you need a 1g or more to get a look where people start talking about you being on the "gear"



Empire Boy said:


> I think if everybody on every board was as honest, you'd see higher numbers.


empire boy speaks the truth... i think many on here all talk about how little AAS you need; a lot of this related to not leading "young kids" into dangerous waters... but it still means that the numbers being bandied around don't get people the results you'd expect for taking drugs....

the truth is, your liver doesn't fry.. and once you're over 250mg/week of test, you need an ai or serm, you need pct, and you're not a natty, so why f*ck about?


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## Mars (Aug 25, 2007)

Ben Stiller said:


> I like reading your posts and you know your stuff but the statement in bold, let's just say that that is a pure subjective opinion, and in my view totally wrong. No disrespect! Maybe your androgen receptors are saturated by cycling to long or whatever, but I have been doing this aas thing for quit some time and more mgs do not give more results based on my own personal experience. We have a team of athetes in my own gym and everything is open as far as aas is concirned. 500mgs of test ew is the standard, sometimes 675, sometimes some masteron added to end the cycle or some tabs in the beginning and these guys grow like weeds, even on their fourth or fifth cycle. I do have to say on time is off time at least, most guys cycle once a year leading up to major competitions. *You have read research by Bhasin on test for sure, 600mgs ew is the cut off point*.


Is this a new study by shalender bhasin? i have read much of his work but haven't come across this "600mgs ew is the cut off point". Can you link please?


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## Ben Stiller (Nov 24, 2011)

I am from Holland. I really don't care how much anybody uses from a personal perspective. It's your body, do with it what you want. But 3,9 grams man wew! First time for me reading that. Good for him though about being straight forward about it. I do respect that very much. Makes me think, I like that too.


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

Ben Stiller said:


> I am from Holland. I really don't care how much anybody uses from a personal perspective. It's your body, do with it what you want. But 3,9 grams man wew! First time for me reading that. Good for him though about being straight forward about it. I do respect that very much. Makes me think, I like that too.


I'm def not saying everyone should do it.. just that many go on and on about wanting certain results, but don't get the dosages that MAY be required to get there...

All i wanted to do was, by being honest about what it took for ME to show that there is a lot of crap being bandied about regarding what happens to you with certain doses, like 150mg/day of c-17 orals etc, which really there is no evidence for.. after all the NHS wards are full of people with liver failure from alcohol, not c-17 orals... not saying they are risk free... nothing is, not even aspirin...


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## Mars (Aug 25, 2007)

ausbuilt said:


> liver stress is relative, i cycle 150mg/day oxys month on/month off, on top of a base of 3.6g of AAS as injections, and in past 7 months now, never had a LFT with readings out of the range..
> 
> *mg for mg there is no diff between anavar and oxys for liver toxicity because, its the same c-17 alpha alkylation for them... and thats the liver stress. medical fact*.


Aaarrgh LOL, this is not true.

Oxandrolone (unlike other 17aa steroids) apart from 1/3 of it being excreted unchanged in urine it undergoes considerably less metabolic transformation in the liver, real medical fact  .

I can find the link if you wish.


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## SonOfZeus (Feb 15, 2009)

Mars said:


> Aaarrgh LOL, this is not true.
> 
> Oxandrolone (unlike other 17aa steroids) apart from 1/3 of it being excreted unchanged in urine it undergoes considerably less metabolic transformation in the liver, real medical fact  .
> 
> I can find the link if you wish.


Can you link this study please, would be interested to read this.. As I was put off running a longer cycle (12/16 week) of Var when Aus mentioned it was just as toxic as any other oral, but if it's not surely it wouldn't really be much of an issue?


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## Ben Stiller (Nov 24, 2011)

ausbuilt said:


> yep that is it exactly.... not saying 500-600mg is a waste of time, but results are such that most "civilians" think thats how you get from drinking protein powder... whereas you need a 1g or more to get a look where people start talking about you being on the "gear"
> 
> empire boy speaks the truth... i think many on here all talk about how little AAS you need; a lot of this related to not leading "young kids" into dangerous waters... but it still means that the numbers being bandied around don't get people the results you'd expect for taking drugs....
> 
> the truth is, your liver doesn't fry.. and once you're over 250mg/week of test, you need an ai or serm, you need pct, and you're not a natty, so why f*ck about?


My very first cycle was 20mg d-bol ed and 300mg primo ew for eight weeks. I gained 13kgs of bodyweight. Did a lot of different things over the 19 years of AAS use. Finally I was off for a long time before my last cycle, started at 120kgs bodyweight, did 500mg test E ew for three years straight and went up too 142 kgs in about 1,5 years and ended the 'cycle' at a little sharper 137kgs doing 250mg test and 500mg masteron ew. People noticed it, lets just say that! I guess different people react different to AAS. More gear just gave me more sides not more gains. Cycling down and/ or going off did however.



Mars said:


> Is this a new study by shalender bhasin? i have read much of his work but haven't come across this "600mgs ew is the cut off point". Can you link please?


Nothing new, just the study researching the low dosage test from 25mg up to 800 mgs max I believe? Looking at strength and weight gain related to the negative side effect 600mgs was about the optimum. Maybe I phrased it wrong saying 'cut off point', if so I am sorry if that is confusing, but I meant to say risk to benefit ratio 600mg ew was about optimum. Less gave less postive results, more gave about the same positive results, but had more negative implications. If your really have not read this study before I will look the link up for you.


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## Mars (Aug 25, 2007)

Ben Stiller said:


> My very first cycle was 20mg d-bol ed and 300mg primo ew for eight weeks. I gained 13kgs of bodyweight. Did a lot of different things over the 19 years of AAS use. Finally I was off for a long time before my last cycle, started at 120kgs bodyweight, did 500mg test E ew for three years straight and went up too 142 kgs in about 1,5 years and ended the 'cycle' at a little sharper 137kgs doing 250mg test and 500mg masteron ew. People noticed it, lets just say that! I guess different people react different to AAS. More gear just gave me more sides not more gains. Cycling down and/ or going off did however.
> 
> Nothing new, just the study researching the low dosage test from 25mg up to 800 mgs max I believe? Looking at strength and weight gain related to the negative side effect 600mgs was about the optimum. Maybe I phrased it wrong saying 'cut off point', if so I am sorry if that is confusing, but I meant to say risk to benefit ratio 600mg ew was about optimum. Less gave less postive results, more gave about the same positive results, but had more negative implications. If your really have not read this study before I will look the link up for you.


You did phrase it wrong and still are, i have read the study many times and have it in my data base still, i would read it again mate.

The doses of androgenic steroids used in previous studies were low,1-5,11,12 mostly because of concern about potential toxic effects. In contrast, to our knowledge the dose of testosterone enanthate administered in this study (600 mg per week) is the highest administered in any study of athletic performance. Undoubtedly, some athletes and bodybuilders take even higher doses than those we gave. Furthermore, athletes often "stack" androgenic and anabolic steroids, taking multiple forms simultaneously. *We do not know whether still higher doses of testosterone or the simultaneous administration of several steroids would have more pronounced effects*.


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

Mars said:


> Aaarrgh LOL, this is not true.
> 
> Oxandrolone (unlike other 17aa steroids) apart from 1/3 of it being excreted unchanged in urine it undergoes considerably less metabolic transformation in the liver, real medical fact  .
> 
> I can find the link if you wish.


while i have no doubt the structural differences between the compounds will effect the body differently, if you saying 1/3 is excreted unchanged, then i would have thought that meant it would cause more liver stress....

I'd love to see research that shows the differences on liver function for the compounds once the c-17 alpha alkylation is not the issue...

IN fact I"d love to see research that shows the effect on liver filtration rates as opposed to changes to enzyme levels, as its filtration rates that show actual changes to the livers function rather than just raised enzyme levels...

I'm here to learn...


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## Mars (Aug 25, 2007)

SonOfZeus said:


> Can you link this study please, would be interested to read this.. As I was put off running a longer cycle (12/16 week) of Var when Aus mentioned it was just as toxic as any other oral, but if it's not surely it wouldn't really be much of an issue?


Damn, my PPV subscription for that one has expired, it was called "Oxandrolone disposition and metabolism in man". But it is a medical fact mate, Ausbuilt is very much mistaken.


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## Mars (Aug 25, 2007)

ausbuilt said:


> while i have no doubt the structural differences between the compounds will effect the body differently, if you saying 1/3 is excreted unchanged, then i would have thought that meant it would cause more liver stress....
> 
> I'd love to see research that shows the differences on liver function for the compounds once the c-17 alpha alkylation is not the issue...
> 
> ...


Much, in fact nearly all of this is PPV and subscription, however if you are really interested in this a good second hand copy of clinical hepatoxicty (zimmerman) for around £30 or the Genomic, in vitro/vivo one (which is the doggies) for around £80.


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## Ben Stiller (Nov 24, 2011)

Mars said:


> You did phrase it wrong and still are, i have read the study many times and have it in my data base still, i would read it again mate.
> 
> The doses of androgenic steroids used in previous studies were low,1-5,11,12 mostly because of concern about potential toxic effects. In contrast, to our knowledge the dose of testosterone enanthate administered in this study (600 mg per week) is the highest administered in any study of athletic performance. Undoubtedly, some athletes and bodybuilders take even higher doses than those we gave. Furthermore, athletes often "stack" androgenic and anabolic steroids, taking multiple forms simultaneously. *We do not know whether still higher doses of testosterone or the simultaneous administration of several steroids would have more pronounced effects*.


Thank you for you response. I did not read the above statement in this study I talked about and cannot find it in the tekst: http://ajpendo.physiology.org/content/281/6/E1172.full

But based on what you posted the only correct statement for me to make would be that 600mgs is the highest dose 'researched' and found relatively safe. So thanks for coreecting me. However this is age related as this study compares 20 tot 60 year olds, concluding 125mg ew is an optimum for the older group. I am in the middle of these groups as far as age is concirned: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15562020. Like I said earlier, I am looking to learn so what your view on this then.


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## Mars (Aug 25, 2007)

Empire Boy said:


> Can you summarise the findings? Let me see if I can get it in the meantime.


Basically all i remember is what i have already said, hopefully you can find a freebie or have free access to J Clin Endocrinol Metab, thats where i got originally.


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## Mars (Aug 25, 2007)

bassline boy said:


> has there ever been any aids suffers had problems with liver during treatment?
> 
> i remember reading a story about a BB on gear use and he said i dont think many people will have health problems if they stay away from orals.


In the most recent study i read, none of them suffered any clinical liver issues after 36wks of treatment.


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## Ben Stiller (Nov 24, 2011)

Empire Boy said:


> Holy sh1t!!! And you're acting gob struck at 3 gram+ cycles for 12 to max 24 weeks or so, at the max!!! I can't imagine shutting myself down for a 156 week 'cycle' (lol) just for 500mg of test. Crikey!
> 
> I'd take the shorter, 12-20 week 3+ gram cycles over shutting myself down for three years on just 500mg of test, thank you


I'll be the last to say this was smart, but you talked about honesty so there. With a good PCT I was within normal after 12 weeks. I think I was lucky with that.



Empire Boy said:


> Ha Ha, you have a different idea and time frame about cycling down and coming off than most...


I did short cyles in the past for many years, but had a hard time keeping my gains. I did not use AI's and did no PCT at that time. I didn't know better then and was an ass I guess. I do things different now for sure! I did my first cycle in 1992. There was very little info back then.


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## SonOfZeus (Feb 15, 2009)

Mars, what do you think of me running a 16 week cycle of Anavar at 100mg a day then? In terms of liver toxicity etc? and is 4 weeks Nolva 20mg sufficient PCT or do I need to extend it? Not going to use clomid as I don't like the sound of the drug at all.


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## Ben Stiller (Nov 24, 2011)

Mars I replied to your post, but some of my posts are delayed by the moderator it says? Then they disappear all together? What's up with that? 600mg is the most researched so you are right I did phrase it wrong, but I did not find your quote in my full tekst. This one is more precize related to dosage and age concluding 125mg ew is optimal for 60 year old men compared to 20 year olds. I am about in the middle, so optimum is relative I guess.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15562020


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## SonOfZeus (Feb 15, 2009)

bassline boy said:


> zeus i dont know how you can handle the cost of that var lol


I've bought it all already lol, admittedly could of got worlds of Dbol for the price but bought it because a) thought it was gyno free, evidently not though and B) less hepatoxic, which seems to be getting mixed response.. but if it is infact less toxic then I can run a nice long cycle which I'd prefer as I'm cutting so want to get as cut as possible whilst on it!


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## Mars (Aug 25, 2007)

Empire Boy said:


> Is it by Karim? It is in Clinical Pharmacology and Therapeutics, *not JCEM*, it was published in 1973.


Yes, by Karim and thats the link on my old external HD so i thought that was were i got it.

Karim A, Ranney RE, Zagarella J, Maibach HI. Oxandrolone disposition and metabolism in man. J Clin Endocrinol Metab 1962;22: 921-924.

Cheers for finding and posting it.


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

Empire Boy said:


> @Ausbuilt, here you go:
> 
> "*oxymetholone contains a hydroxymethylene group at C2, oxandrolone has an oxygen at that position*. Studies of the metabolism of oxymetholone indicate *that the 2-hydroxymethylene group* is oxidized to a beta keto-carbonic acid metabolite that is subsequently decarboxylated and 3 alpha reduced to form 17 alpha-methyl-5 alpha-androstane-3 alpha 17 beta diol. Furthermore, several hydroxylated and reduced metabolites in the neutral and basic fractions have been detected but not identified."
> 
> ...


thanks... may have to purchase the article, as the abstract doesn't give much detail but, nothing conclusive- see the whole issue is very few studies on the efect of processing these chemicals on the filtration ability of the liver.. temporarily raised enzyme readings mean nothing- to get jaundice, you have permanently raised enzymes, or at least long term... of course hepatities causes this too, and has nothing to do with AAS...



Empire Boy said:


> To confirm your ideas. This article says the metabolites probably have little effect on hepatotoxicity (although no proof is given, just says 'unlikely'), but goes on to say this:
> 
> "*Hepatotoxicity* is a serious adverse effect associated with the use of 17a- alkylated anabolic-androgenic steroids. Cholestatic jaundice is the major hepatic side effect and is both dose and duration dependent. A small number of case reports have been published documenting the occurrence of cholestatic jaundice in patients treated with oxymetholone. Functional liver failure and hepatic necrosis have not been observed with 17a-alkylated anabolic-androgenic steroids when a single agent was used, although FDA labeling regulations require a class statement about these risks. In addition, *oral preparations such as oxymetholone have higher hepatotoxicity than parenteral anabolic-androgenic steroids, because higher drug concentrations are presented to the liver on first pass."*
> 
> ...


well no one is saying they are safe- and there have been NO clinical studies on "stacks" let alone the doses that sports people use.. however there has been no proof of liver failure or necrosis as stated- the same CANNOT be said for alcohol..

consequently, i am still not convinced that there is a significant statistical difference in measurable liver function reduction between Oxandralone and Oxymetholone....


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## Mars (Aug 25, 2007)

ausbuilt said:


> thanks... may have to purchase the article, as the abstract doesn't give much detail but, nothing conclusive- see the whole issue is very few studies on the efect of processing these chemicals on the filtration ability of the liver.. temporarily raised enzyme readings mean nothing- to get jaundice, you have permanently raised enzymes, or at least long term... of course hepatities causes this too, and has nothing to do with AAS...
> 
> well no one is saying they are safe- and there have been NO clinical studies on "stacks" let alone the doses that sports people use.. however there has been no proof of liver failure or necrosis as stated- the same CANNOT be said for alcohol..
> 
> consequently,* i am still not convinced that there is a significant statistical difference in measurable liver function reduction between Oxandralone and Oxymetholone....*


There are, honest lol, it's even been used to treat alcoholic hepatitis for gods sake and there are many instances of use in children with burns. I can't prove it at this moment but very little of oxandrolone is metabolised by the liver, i will get you the proof even if it costs me.


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

Empire Boy said:


> To be honest, after finishing another article, and spending a good part of the afternoon and evening chewing on this topic, neither am I now...
> 
> I never chased it up like this, just went by a post on a 'forum' citing the chemical differences between the two in relation to hepatotoxicity...but following it up today, there does not seem to be any real evidence...in fact *most, not all* say indeed it is not any worse than oxandralone in studies involving burn victims and HIV/Aids...
> 
> ...


well done on research so far!! and I'm not out to say I'm right.. i just haven't found anything convincing saying otherwise so far, when you examine the studies that come up....

I'll get to DAC tomorrow night on the other thread..



Mars said:


> There are, honest lol, it's even been used to treat alcoholic hepatitis for gods sake and there are many instances of use in children with burns. I can't prove it at this moment but very little of oxandrolone is metabolised by the liver, i will get you the proof even if it costs me.


I love ya mars! I look forward to it- its what makes this forum worthwhile!! more knowledge, and intelligent discussion than on any other forum i've been on (excepting Dat's)


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## SonOfZeus (Feb 15, 2009)

Anyone got any feedback on running it for 16 weeks @ 100mg?

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Elite Nutrition www.elite-n.co.uk


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## Rav212 (May 18, 2011)

How ure results so far mate? I'm going to be hitting up a 100mg ed var cycle soon aswell.


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## SonOfZeus (Feb 15, 2009)

So far good, hardening up and strength is going up, tbh first few weeks I wasn't quite sure if iw as cutting or bulking and was eating around maintinence, but a few days ago I started a cut, fasted cardio in the AM, weight training in the evening.. Diet is spot on, drink plenty of water, haven't drank since I started the cycle, may end up drinking a couple of times due to birthday and possibly new year, trying to avoid that but may just have to allow it on one or two occasions and hope for the best!

Aside from having liver tests, are there any other things you can look out for in day to day life which may indicate that somethings not right in terms of liver function.. Aside from jaundice! Any physiological effects?


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## SonOfZeus (Feb 15, 2009)

Empire Boy said:


> Symptoms of cholestasis:
> 
> Clay-colored or white stools
> 
> ...


Useful to know, cheers!

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________

Elite Nutrition www.elite-n.co.uk


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## Rav212 (May 18, 2011)

U shud me fine mate I ran winny at 80mg ed for 9-10 weeks and liver enzymes were not out of normal range. It's very over-rated! About AAS and liver. But it is very serious if it does go wrong lol, so best to just go GP and get tests done every month I say!


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## Rav212 (May 18, 2011)

As for results what was ure bench press before cycle and how much is it now? And sorry how long have u been on it for?


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

SonOfZeus said:


> Aside from having liver tests, are there any other things you can look out for in day to day life which may indicate that somethings not right in terms of liver function.. Aside from jaundice! Any physiological effects?


mate, seriously, re-read the posts- there have been some cases of jaundice recorded.... doesn't mean it happens all the time... half the people on here should be looking like homer simpson (i.e yellow) from the amount of orals run... it just doensn't happen anywhere close to often, just that it has happened...

same could be said for dieing from MDMA.... it does happen... but considering how much is taken.....

the whole point, is if you're concerned- look at your LFTs- most don't even get them... the reason? even if you have elevated enzymes, they will drop down when you're off- even alcholics don't instantly damage their liver.. it takes years of constant abuse, even for them...

also, when you have your LFT blood test, get your IGF-1 reading as well.... what you will find is, if liver enzymes are up, so is your IGF-1 .... which you want....

you see, what most studies fail to examine is the liver filtration rate- whether the liver's ability to filter the blood is diminished- true indication of damage- jaundice is the result of this failure, but its hard to judge before it happens... but lets just say, most people could do a month on/month off on ANY oral and be fine..

Empire boy posted that by taking parenteral steroids (i.e injections) its safer as less steroids is presented to the liver on first pass (and in fact they are not c-17 alpha alkylated, which is hte main issue); and I do take injections... like all year... i cycle orals WITH THE PRIMARY PURPOSE of "stressing" the liver and increasing IGF-1 secretion...


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## Mars (Aug 25, 2007)

This is an interesting read on how and why steroids are metabolised differently.

http://www.clinchem.org/cgi/reprint/42/7/1001.pdf

And this is what i was talking about re: alcoholic hepatitis

Unlike other anabolic steroids, oxandrolone is minimally metabolized by the liver, thereby avoiding most drug interactions and the liver toxicity often seen with other steroids. Even people whose livers where badly damaged by alcohol, and therefore were unable to take many drugs, did well on oxandrolone.


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## SonOfZeus (Feb 15, 2009)

I may go to my doctor and ask if she can get my liver enzymes checked but ask not to disclose the reason.. I do have a very good doctor back at home, so there may be a chance she'll do it for me.

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________

Elite Nutrition www.elite-n.co.uk


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## Mars (Aug 25, 2007)

SonOfZeus said:


> I may go to my doctor and ask if she can get my liver enzymes checked but ask not to disclose the reason.. I do have a very good doctor back at home, so there may be a chance she'll do it for me.


Tell her you have been drinking a lot ED and your urine is very dark, she should def do LFT's then.


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## SonOfZeus (Feb 15, 2009)

Mars said:


> Tell her you have been drinking a lot ED and your urine is very dark, she should def do LFT's then.


Great shout, will do ! Is the liver enzyme test a blood test? and in the event my my liver enzymes were out of range and she went ahead to give me medication to try and sort (on the basis she thought I'd be drinking), would I be best stopping the Var completely, starting PCT and then taking whatever she pescribed?

Hopefully that is never going to happen but worth knowing incase!! 

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________

Elite Nutrition www.elite-n.co.uk


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## Mars (Aug 25, 2007)

SonOfZeus said:


> Great shout, will do ! Is the liver enzyme test a blood test? and in the event my my liver enzymes were out of range and she went ahead to give me medication to try and sort (on the basis she thought I'd be drinking), would I be best stopping the Var completely, starting PCT and then taking whatever she pescribed?
> 
> Hopefully that is never going to happen but worth knowing incase!!


Yes, simple blood test. I doub't very much your enzymes are raised and even if the important ones are then it will be minimal.


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## SonOfZeus (Feb 15, 2009)

Empire Boy said:


> I see this all as good fun by the way! Not trying to be a know it all, or prove anybody wrong....
> 
> In the middle of my own research at the moment as I am at an impasse, so diverting a little energy into this to avoid thinking about it


Did you just and copy and paste that line from aus?! :tongue:

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________

Elite Nutrition www.elite-n.co.uk


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## SonOfZeus (Feb 15, 2009)

Is var known for causing headaches? Last few days I've had a headache pretty much all day, had a cough for quite a few weeks/month recently too and everytime I cough my head f*cking hurts. Sort of pounding headache, sometimes its worse than others..

Drinking plenty of water and sleeping alright, not sure what else it could be?

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________

Elite Nutrition www.elite-n.co.uk


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## Ben Stiller (Nov 24, 2011)

Reading this thread confirmes me posting here. Very interesting stuff. My little two cents from a different perspective: when looking at AAS and the liver you can look at the metabolism of AAS in the liver, but androgens (like all steroids) can have a direct effect on the liver by stimulating liver growth. This poses a risk for the development off cancer cells (yes I said the c word). Only d-bol shows a strong correlation between ability to stimulate DNA synthesis and ability to induce protooncogene expression. Based on this you cannot say that out of all oral 17 aa AAS oxy posses the greatest risk to liver liver health. But toxicity by way of metabolization is another story off course.


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## Mars (Aug 25, 2007)

Empire Boy said:


> Yes, I have read about 6 similar articles covering the metabolism of 17-aa oral AAS...
> 
> And this one, in relation to what we are talking about, only covers Oxymetholone, and says the same thing: that b/c of the 2-hydroxymethylene group (the only difference between oxanadralone and oxymetholone) a 3-alpha Hydroxy metabolite is eventually produced...BUT, there is no evidence I can find that 2-alpha hydroxy metabolites impede bile flow, in fact most are sure these metabolites do nothing in terms of hepatotoxicity. I originally thought this was the case. It appears not to be. I kept trying to convince myself the 2-hydroxymethylene group made a difference in terms of hepatotoxicity. it doesn't. At least nothing that is proven.
> 
> ...


It covers lots of steroids, did you read it?

Also i'm not interested in oxymeth, i'm just pointing out that oxandrolone* is* less hepatoxic than other 17aa steroids.


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

Mars said:


> It covers lots of steroids, did you read it?
> 
> Also i'm not interested in oxymeth, i'm just pointing out that oxandrolone* is* less hepatoxic than other 17aa steroids.


the point of the comparison was that everyone says how hepatotoxic oxymeth is, but the evidence is not there.. over the other oral steroids; your arguement that oxandrolone is safer than all the others may well be true... but I've yet to see any study that says its "x"% less hepatotoxic... or reduces liver filtration rates "y" less than other oral steroids...

What I'm drawing from your points is that as 1/3 of excreted anavar is unchanged by the liver metabolism, its safer; but wouldn't this mean that its also had less effect overall??

I also thought before everyone gets side tracked by the supposed dangers of oral steriods the following point is worth making:

*Paracetamol toxicity is the foremost cause of acute liver failure in the Western world*, and accounts for most drug overdoses in the United States, the United Kingdom, Australia and New Zealand.[7][8][9][10]

from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paracetamol


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