# Fruit for carbs



## &lt;JAY_JAY&gt; (Jan 4, 2007)

Could i use fruit for my carbs, instead of rice ect.

Example, chicken , almonds, bluerberries & apple

I use the almonds for fats, this would just be on meal 2 & 3 out of my 6 meals a day.

I m not sure if there a simple or complex carb, i no there no where there time release slower than sugery simple carbs like choclate ect..

Cheers for any thoughts or advice.


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## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

Fruit is fine if you want to use instead of rice etc, probably has more nutrients.


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## CoffeeFiend (Aug 31, 2010)

Sorry for the hijack but i was pondering the same question today but for milk.. ''milk for carbs'' what do people think? My reason was 4 pints is 70-80g of protein..


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## shaun.palmer (Mar 12, 2011)

CoffeeFiend said:


> Sorry for the hijack but i was pondering the same question today but for milk.. ''milk for carbs'' what do people think? My reason was 4 pints is 70-80g of protein..


x2 i drink a lot of milk anyway


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## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

If you digest Lactose fine then I don't see the issue.


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## fits (Feb 3, 2004)

Get Raw milk if your going to drink that much.


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## CoffeeFiend (Aug 31, 2010)

fits said:


> Get Raw milk if your going to drink that much.


Lol easier said than done pal its about as easy to get as duck eggs lol


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## Fatstuff (Mar 2, 2010)

Raw milk lol


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## Hendrix (Sep 16, 2009)

Fruit is mainly high G.I, more of a fast carb than complex like rice, pasta. Faster carbs will cause more insulin to spike, which could lead to more fat gain.


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## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

hendrix said:


> Fruit is mainly high G.I, more of a fast carb than complex like rice, pasta. Faster carbs will cause more insulin to spike, which could lead to more fat gain.


The GI of the fruit is highly dependant on it's total carb content and fibre, this aside eating it with protein and fats is going to massively change the GI of the whole meal so it's not worth worrying about a great deal.

The thinking thay High GI foods = fat gain is a massively simplistic way of looking at things and ignores total calorie balance, you could eat a lot of high GI foods and if you remained in a negative calorie balance you'd still lose weight. Plus I'd choose fruit anyday over refined foods like pasta, which are rubbish IMO.


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## EssexMalRider (Apr 23, 2010)

I think I read something recently that linked high milk intake with prostate cancer in Males and some other thing in Females.

Hope its not the case cos I drink gallons of the stuff.

Regarding fruit carbs: 1 banana has 26g carbs and a granny smith has 25g. In theory having one of these in a day could be enough, in combination with any other micro amounts of carbs you may intake, to knock you out of ketosis if you were on a keto diet...?


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## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

What's Keto got to do with this?


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## EssexMalRider (Apr 23, 2010)

bayman said:


> What's Keto got to do with this?


Fruit and carbs discussion. Duh!


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## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

EssexMalRider said:


> Fruit and carbs discussion. Duh!


But nowhere has the OP mentioned he's on a keto diet? He was asking if he could replace more traditional starchy / wheat based carb sources with fruit, the answer to which is: yes. He might even be better off health wise for doing so.


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## Greenspin (Dec 27, 2010)

Is it ok to eat fruit in place of carb such as pasta, oats, rice ect. Yes, why not? Gram for gram raw carbs have equal energy, 4kcal's. Now how your body deals with the type of carb is different. But is only relative when in context of a certain diet.

Like bayman said, the GI is relevant to what its own composition is and what you eat it with, ie. other carbs/protein/fat ect. But it is a factor.

Now there are so many variables to your question, that the simple answer is yes, carbs are carbs. But to be more specific, you will have to elaborate.

Other factors include, nutritional comparisons between fruits and grains ect. satiety, personal preference, and so much more.


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## Guest (Mar 16, 2011)

alot of my carbs come from fruit.

Yesterday had 3 bananas, 200g raspberries...leaning out nicely


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## Greenspin (Dec 27, 2010)

ALR said:


> alot of my carbs come from fruit.
> 
> Yesterday had 3 bananas, 200g raspberries...leaning out nicely


LOL, I am dieting, I have about 2-3 apples, banana, 1-1.5 punnets of berries daily.


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## Guest (Mar 16, 2011)

fruit just feels like a healthier carb, also wheat tends to bloat me, oats and rice etc I can overeat far too easily. I can easily limit myself when im eating fruit. I've rarely eaten more than 5 bananas in a day, thats 100-150g carbs. I could get through that much pasta in one sitting


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## Hendrix (Sep 16, 2009)

Didn't actually mean it to look like I was saying all fruit is bad, and should not be part of your diet.

Just really the differences, between the more starchy carbs and fruit. It is true that if calories are in a deficit, then you will still lose bodyfat.


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## Raptor (Feb 16, 2010)

What many don't realise that in large quantities Fructose is the worst out of all sugar types, Fructose bi-passes the breakdown process that glucose undergoes and heads straight for the liver theoretically making the liver work overtime to process it. Also its very inefficient at being used as energy and prefers to be stored as fat... i've also read that Fructose can make fat cells less insulin sensitive due to its mechanisms, there is a massive scare about how bad Corn Syrup is, its called HFCS for a reason 'high fructose corn syrup' and use in foods in the USA has gone up 1000% since 1970, and so has obesity....

Fructose is not bad in moderation, so no need to drop your bananas but you don't want to replace other carbs completely with Fructose imo.


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## Rekless (May 5, 2009)

Raptor said:


> What many don't realise that in large quantities Fructose is the worst out of all sugar types, Fructose bi-passes the breakdown process that glucose undergoes and heads straight for the liver theoretically making the liver work overtime to process it. Also its very inefficient at being used as energy and prefers to be stored as fat... i've also read that Fructose can make fat cells less insulin sensitive due to its mechanisms, there is a massive scare about how bad Corn Syrup is, its called HFCS for a reason 'high fructose corn syrup' and use in foods in the USA has gone up 1000% since 1970, and so has obesity....
> 
> Fructose is not bad in moderation, so no need to drop your bananas but you don't want to replace other carbs completely with Fructose imo.


Listen to this man.

Large Salads and lots of veggies are a great alternative.


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## Guest (Mar 16, 2011)

Raptor said:


> What many don't realise that in large quantities Fructose is the worst out of all sugar types, Fructose bi-passes the breakdown process that glucose undergoes and heads straight for the liver theoretically making the liver work overtime to process it. Also its very inefficient at being used as energy and prefers to be stored as fat... i've also read that Fructose can make fat cells less insulin sensitive due to its mechanisms, there is a massive scare about how bad Corn Syrup is, its called HFCS for a reason 'high fructose corn syrup' and use in foods in the USA has gone up 1000% since 1970, and so has obesity....
> 
> Fructose is not bad in moderation, so no need to drop your bananas but you don't want to replace other carbs completely with Fructose imo.


This is a bit of a myth, fructose isn't any worse for you than any other carb. high fructose corn syrup is actually almost the same make up of fructose/glucose as table sugar. (ie 55% fructose, table sugar being 50% fructose)

The fructose myth came about because fat americans consuming 12 cans of coke a day wanted something/someone/anything to blame for their fat asses

Fructose is also not metabolised soley in the liver http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GLUT-5


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## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

Raptor said:


> What many don't realise that in large quantities Fructose is the worst out of all sugar types, Fructose bi-passes the breakdown process that glucose undergoes and heads straight for the liver theoretically making the liver work overtime to process it. Also its very inefficient at being used as energy and prefers to be stored as fat... i've also read that Fructose can make fat cells less insulin sensitive due to its mechanisms, there is a massive scare about how bad Corn Syrup is, its called HFCS for a reason 'high fructose corn syrup' and use in foods in the USA has gone up 1000% since 1970, and so has obesity....
> 
> Fructose is not bad in moderation, so no need to drop your bananas but you don't want to replace other carbs completely with Fructose imo.


ALR has put most of this right above.

Fructose is primarilty processed by the liver, yes, but this can be beneficial for a bb'er or athlete, as full levels of hepatic (liver) glycogen means you stay anabolic - hepatic glycogen is the first to be depleted by exercise. So a little fructose is good.

Plus this is ignorning the fact that most fruits are in fact a 50/50 split of fructose AND glucose, it'd be pretty difficult to OD on fructose from whole fruits alone, fruit juices and fizzy drinks full of HFCS is another thing mind.


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## Guest (Mar 16, 2011)

Yep, a 500ml bottle of coke has 60g of carbs. at 55% fructose that one bottle has 2-3x the fructose of one banana. (also bananas have more sucrose and less fructose the greener they are..fructose is very sweet thats why yellow bananas are sweeter)

I've seen guys I work with go through 2-3 bottles of pop in a day, but never seen anyone eat 6-10 bananas...

except for that gorilla I work with of course


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## Raptor (Feb 16, 2010)

ALR said:


> This is a bit of a myth, fructose isn't any worse for you than any other carb. high fructose corn syrup is actually almost the same make up of fructose/glucose as table sugar. (ie 55% fructose, table sugar being 50% fructose)
> 
> The fructose myth came about because fat americans consuming 12 cans of coke a day wanted something/someone/anything to blame for their fat asses
> 
> Fructose is also not metabolised soley in the liver http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GLUT-5





bayman said:


> ALR has put most of this right above.
> 
> Fructose is primarilty processed by the liver, yes, but this can be beneficial for a bb'er or athlete, as full levels of hepatic (liver) glycogen means you stay anabolic - hepatic glycogen is the first to be depleted by exercise. So a little fructose is good.
> 
> Plus this is ignorning the fact that most fruits are in fact a 50/50 split of fructose AND glucose, it'd be pretty difficult to OD on fructose from whole fruits alone, fruit juices and fizzy drinks full of HFCS is another thing mind.


Yeah im not saying that fruit is bad, especially not whole fruit in moderation.... but even if we go off your and ALR's theory that Fructose is 'nearly' as good as table sugar then still, what use is that? 300g of carbs from complex slow release carbs is going to be much better than 300g of table sugar... and Fructose is not as efficient as normal glucose sugar


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## Guest (Mar 16, 2011)

Raptor said:


> Yeah im not saying that fruit is bad, especially not whole fruit in moderation.... but even if we go off your and ALR's theory that Fructose is 'nearly' as good as table sugar then still, what use is that? 300g of carbs from complex slow release carbs is going to be much better than 300g of table sugar


Fruit isnt just table sugar though, it's lots of fiber and is often low gi. 20g of carbs from berries is nothing like a tablespoon full of sugar, even tho calorically similar.


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## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

The Bitter Truth about Fructose alarmism.

Great read for anyone who wants to know understand the fructose issue.

The follow up is here:

Retrospective on Fructose Alarmism.


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## Guest (Mar 16, 2011)

bayman said:


> The Bitter Truth about Fructose alarmism.
> 
> Great read for anyone who wants to know understand the fructose issue.
> 
> ...


lol I was googling to try and find this exact link, bookmarked for future reference


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## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

Raptor said:


> Yeah im not saying that fruit is bad, especially not whole fruit in moderation.... but even if we go off your and ALR's theory that Fructose is 'nearly' as good as table sugar then still, what use is that? 300g of carbs from complex slow release carbs is going to be much better than 300g of table sugar... and Fructose is not as efficient as normal glucose sugar


Fruit is a "complex carb" if you worry about that sort of thing, the glucose in it is released immeadiately, the fructose is stored as liver glycogen or "slow release". Comparing 300g of fruit to 300g of table sugar is idiotic and neither myself or ALR were recommending as such.


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## Raptor (Feb 16, 2010)

ALR said:


> Fruit isnt just table sugar though, it's lots of fiber and is often low gi. 20g of carbs from berries is nothing like a tablespoon full of sugar, even tho calorically similar.


No i realise this, yes berries are a lot better than table sugar in moderation but eating 1500 of them a day would not be better than eating balanced carbohydrates, eating a few portions of fruit for the nutrients etc is very different to eating 300 grams worth of fructose, it simply does not like to be processed in large quantities, and when the body tries its very in efficient at doing so


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## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

Raptor, try getting 300grams of fructose from fruit given most fruits are a 50/50 split of glucose and fructose. You'd probably fail trying.

I'd take a kilo of berries over a calorific matched amount of pasta anyday.


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## Raptor (Feb 16, 2010)

bayman said:


> Raptor, try getting 300grams of fructose from fruit given most fruits are a 50/50 split of glucose and fructose. You'd probably fail trying.
> 
> I'd take a kilo of berries over a calorific matched amount of pasta anyday.


Fair enough thats your opinion, but you'll never see on Jay Cutlers youtube videos a kilo of berries, however you will see lots of pasta / rice


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## Guest (Mar 16, 2011)

Another thing to remember is theres a lot more to fruit/veg than just the caloric content.

Sweet potatoes are quite high GI, yet they help diabetics control their blood sugar due to other things they contain. Looking at a sweet potato/berry as purely x amount of carbs is far too simpistic an approach.


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## shinobi_85 (Feb 20, 2011)

wow my head hurts, but what do u guys think of fructoses ability to form advanced glycation end products more readily. I dug up this crap, what u think?

AGEs may be less, or more, reactive than the initial sugars they were formed from. They are absorbed by the body during digestion with about 30% efficiency. Many cells in the body (for example, endothelial cells, smooth muscle, and cells of the immune system) from tissue such as lung, liver, kidney, and peripheral blood bear the Receptor for Advanced Glycation End-products (RAGE) that, when binding AGEs, contributes to age- and diabetes-related chronic inflammatory diseases such as atherosclerosis, asthma, arthritis, myocardial infarction, nephropathy, retinopathy, and neuropathy. There may be some chemicals, such as aminoguanidine, that limit the formation of AGEs by reacting with 3-deoxyglucosone.[16]

The total state of oxidative and peroxidative stress on the healthy body, and the accumulation of AGE-related damage is proportional to the dietary intake of exogenous (preformed) AGEs, the consumption of sugars with a propensity towards glycation such as *fructose[17]* and galactose.[18]

AGEs affect nearly every type of cell and molecule in the body, and are thought to be one factor in aging and some age-related chronic diseases[19][20][21]. They are also believed to play a causative role in the vascular complications of diabetes mellitus.[22]

They have a range of pathological effects, including increasing vascular permeability, inhibition of vascular dilation by interfering with nitric oxide, oxidising LDL,[23] binding cells including macrophage, endothelial, and mesangial cells to induce the secretion of a variety of cytokines and enhancing oxidative stress.[23][24]

THEN FROM REFERENCE

AGEs also form on intracellular proteins. Intracellular AGEs change cellular properties that are critical in vascular homeostasis.66 The rate of AGE formation on intracellular proteins is slowest in the presence of glucose and more rapid with intracellular natural sugars, like fructose, glyceraldehyde-3-phopshate, and glucose-6-phosphate.5,67 Ten times more fructose-derived AGEs form after 5 days than glucose-derived AGEs in vivo.68 Intracellular AGE formation significantly increases in endothelial cells after 1 week in a hyperglycemic environment.69 Intracellularly, basic fibroblast growth factor is one of the proteins that may be glycated.70 AGE modification of this protein drastically reduces the mitogenic activity of endothelial cell cytosol by 70%.70


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## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

Any carbs will produce AGE's, not worth worrying about IMO, so long as you don't go over 50g total fructose per day you'll be fine. See the references in the links I posted.


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## Raptor (Feb 16, 2010)

bayman said:


> Any carbs will produce AGE's, not worth worrying about IMO, *so long as you don't go over 50g total fructose per day you'll be fine.* See the references in the links I posted.


Thus replacing rice and other slow carbs completely with fruit wouldn't be possible possible for many


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## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

Raptor said:


> Fair enough thats your opinion, but you'll never see on Jay Cutlers youtube videos a kilo of berries, however you will see lots of pasta / rice


Because we all know what the pro's do is backed up by science :whistling:

The pro's do lots of stuff, like eating every 3hrs in the wrong thinking they'll go catabolic between meals, they won't eat certain foods when dieting because these apparently make you magically fat even in a calorie deficit.

What applicability does what Jay Cutler is doing have to your avergae gym rat? Not much I'd bet...


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## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

Raptor said:


> Thus replacing rice and other slow carbs completely with fruit wouldn't be possible possible for many


The Op is asking about replacing the carbs from a couple of meal with fruit, so it would be an option in his case. I'm not arguing that everyone should replace ALL of their carb sources with fruit, starches definately have their place: Potates, Rice, and other veg are all GTG.


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## shinobi_85 (Feb 20, 2011)

yeh i know just this bit got be confused : "Ten times more fructose-derived AGEs form after 5 days than glucose-derived AGEs in vivo. and the consumption of sugars with a propensity towards glycation such as fructose[17] and galactose.[18]"

ok im going to read the refs uve left, cheers


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## Maturemuscle (Oct 30, 2010)

I replace carbs like rice and pasta with veggies, then some fruit. I have a thyroid disorder that is being made worse by my wheat allergy and now they suspect I have coeliac disease (allergy to gluten). So I was asked to replace all grain products with first veggies, then salad, then fruit in lowering amounts till my thyroid is sorted out and I have all the tests. So I am having lots of veg with meat and fish, salad with protein ie eggs or cheese and some fruit after training. The meals/snacks in between are protein shake and some unsalted nuts. I feel tons better doing this diet and have had no problems with lacking energy.


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## SeBb0 (Jan 8, 2011)

sorry for going off topic OP but what are some more starchy fruits to consume?

isn't fruit our natural carb source along with plant's.. so only since the agricultural revolution people have become obese?


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## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

Starchy fruits are things like bananas, and veg like potatos (White and Sweet), turnips, etc.


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## shinobi_85 (Feb 20, 2011)

paletolithic diet u refer to, there are many proponents of this, but the opposition say people have been genetically selected away from this and towards the modern diet brought about by modern day agriculture.another thing to remember is that back then fruits would have only been available during particular times of the year.


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## &lt;JAY_JAY&gt; (Jan 4, 2007)

Wow thanks for all the replies i got a shock 

Yes all i was wanting to do was change my earlier meals, i no fruits are not ideal late on, the rice, pasta ect is getting to me, when i eat fruit, i enjoy eating and its making life more enjoyable, plus my skin is glowing, as are my eyes and i feel so much more alert and alot more fresh, plus my workouts seem to be going better. All this is after trying the fruit for about 10 days, my worrrys were is this going to make me get fatter or look more smooth, also there was the health worrys as i was not clued up on the fructose..

My second, third and fourth meal which is, 11.00am, 2.00pm, 5.00pm were all chicken and brown rice, but i have changed it to , chicken , blueberries and apple, so instead of a portion of rice for carbs, i am having fruit, i also eat almonds for my fats.


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## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

> Wow thanks for all the replies i got a shock
> 
> Yes all i was wanting to do was change my earlier meals, i no fruits are not ideal late on, the rice, pasta ect is getting to me, when i eat fruit, i enjoy eating and its making life more enjoyable, plus my skin is glowing, as are my eyes and i feel so much more alert and alot more fresh, plus my workouts seem to be going better. All this is after trying the fruit for about 10 days, my worrrys were is this going to make me get fatter or look more smooth, also there was the health worrys as i was not clued up on the fructose..
> 
> My second, third and fourth meal which is, 11.00am, 2.00pm, 5.00pm were all chicken and brown rice, but i have changed it to , chicken , blueberries and apple, so instead of a portion of rice for carbs, i am having fruit, i also eat almonds for my fats.


If it's working for you, and you can already see health benefits, then keep it up. Also, don't worry about eating carbs later on in thr day, it's excess calories that make you fat not when you take on your carbs.


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## shinobi_85 (Feb 20, 2011)

yeh if it works for u do it, id really like to see how it goes for u over the long term, keep us posted


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## &lt;JAY_JAY&gt; (Jan 4, 2007)

ok will do..

when you mention extra calories baymen that makes you fat, do you mean the calorie defecit needs to be right in your day,or what ever it is, ie, you have to burn more calories than you take in, am still trying to get my head round this, no doubt u could figure out how many is going in, but how many im burning thats something else i need to sus out, maybe you could put me right there.


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## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

> ok will do..
> 
> when you mention extra calories baymen that makes you fat, do you mean the calorie defecit needs to be right in your day,or what ever it is, ie, you have to burn more calories than you take in, am still trying to get my head round this, no doubt u could figure out how many is going in, but how many im burning thats something else i need to sus out, maybe you could put me right there.


Yes, you have to be consuming less calories than your burning in total to lose fat. If you're taking in less calores than you need, and say some of those calories were carbs and right before bed, then it wouldn't make an ounce of difference to fat loss so long as you were in an overall calorie deficit over the course of the day, week, month.

A good roundabout figure for cutting is anywhere between 10-12 calories per LB of total bodyweight, So for a 200lb man 2000-2400 cal per day. This estimation already takes into account things like total daily calories burnt by activity and exercise, plus your basal metabolic rate. So try say 12cals per lb and see how you fair, if you lose fat consistently then great, if you lose too much too quick you might want to up cals slightly, or if progress stalls, drop cals. You have to see what works for you.


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## &lt;JAY_JAY&gt; (Jan 4, 2007)

Well i am 196 pounds so thats good, am still struggling to understand how i will no how many i m burning, the place i get an idea is on the treadmill as it tells you, so if i was burning 2400 at my weight, then i would need to be eating less say 2000, and i am trying to get my bodyfat down.

Sorry if i seem a bit daft here lol, am not, honest lol, i have just heard about this calorie defecit and i want to get it right , if i knew this years ago i might have been a lot more ripped now..


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## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

> Well i am 196 pounds so thats good, am still struggling to understand how i will no how many i m burning, the place i get an idea is on the treadmill as it tells you, so if i was burning 2400 at my weight, then i would need to be eating less say 2000, and i am trying to get my bodyfat down.
> 
> Sorry if i seem a bit daft here lol, am not, honest lol, i have just heard about this calorie defecit and i want to get it right , if i knew this years ago i might have been a lot more ripped now..


Don't worry about how many calories you're burning. Stick to those calorie recommendations for your diet and lift weights and do cardio, see how you fair. If you're not losing fat at the desired rate, then drop calories or up activity / cardio. Simple.


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## Hendrix (Sep 16, 2009)

bayman said:


> Don't worry about how many calories you're burning. Stick to those calorie recommendations for your diet and lift weights and do cardio, see how you fair. If you're not losing fat at the desired rate, then drop calories or up activity / cardio. Simple.


Good Advise, keeps things simple.


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## &lt;JAY_JAY&gt; (Jan 4, 2007)

Ok after reading the post a few times i see where your coming from, guess i need to work out my calorie intake and take it from there, cheers for the advice.


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## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

> Ok after reading the post a few times i see where your coming from' date=' guess i need to work out my calorie intake and take it from there, cheers for the advice.  [/quote']
> 
> I've given you a decent calorie intake to aim for already: 10-12cal per lb of Bodyweight.
> 
> So if you're 196lb start at 2,400cal and see how you go, if you're not losing fat at the desired rate, up cardio at that intake, or lower cals closer to 10cal per lb (1,960 cals).


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

Nice posts in this thread bayman - everything covered nicely. :thumbup1:


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## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

Dtlv74 said:


> Nice posts in this thread bayman - everything covered nicely. :thumbup1:


Thanks man, means a lot from someone like yourself who knows his stuff too.


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## &lt;JAY_JAY&gt; (Jan 4, 2007)

bayman said:


> I've given you a decent calorie intake to aim for already: 10-12cal per lb of Bodyweight.
> 
> So if you're 196lb start at 2,400cal and see how you go, if you're not losing fat at the desired rate, up cardio at that intake, or lower cals closer to 10cal per lb (1,960 cals).


I meant i need to look at how manys in my diet now and see if it need tinkered with, cheers you have helped alot and really ironed out a few issues for me.


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