# Direct muscle growth best peptides - IGF-1 DES and PEG MGF



## standardflexer

Hi guys,

For direct muscle growth what are your views on peptide use?

The last time I looked into it it was IGF-1 24 hours to 1 hour pre workout and PEG MGF directly post work out

Or is there not much difference between IGF-1 DES and IGF-1 LR3

What is the latest research and personal views on this?


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## ws0158

bump! im intrested in this also


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## NorthernSoul

Im in need of info on peptides altogether. Send Paul a message but hasnt responded yet. I want to know the whole benefits of them.


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## Suprakill4

Ask new member @Russianstar


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## 3752

There is no peptide that gives direct muscle growth in normal doses your a fool if you think otherwise, there is a theory boom dosing pMGF does have an effect when micro dosed I am trialling this at the moment.

In my opinion from many years using it IGF-1 LR3 is useless unless you have an injury......yes it gives a pump but that is not muscle growth


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## thoon

Direct muscle growth i wouldn't use peps ... Slow steady not a quick process ..

Unlike Pscarb i rate Lr3 for its anti inflammatory effects as said and also a all over fat loss and feel good factor (like GH) .. Not saying he is incorrect its just my preference works for me ..

Peg ive only used at high doses ..

Des Pre w/out works ok most is pump,, but if used properly and its used as part of the bigger picture with Mgf i believe it has its place in BBing

Be cautious on the hype you read on the net about some peptides .

Peg micro doses what's the protocol behind this and reasoning mate ? Edit just found your thread on Peg mate ...

Russianstar wasn't aware he was a member here....


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## Dux

What am I using GHRP2 and Mod GRF1-29 for then? :lol:

I was of the understanding they would boost your production of natural growth hormone which would indirectly lead to muscle growth (amongst other things). I appreciate the amount is minimal, and the amount of growth is almost negligible compared to AAS, but over time peptides will assist in muscle growth.

Have I got this totally wrong?


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## thoon

Dux said:


> What am I using GHRP2 and Mod GRF1-29 for then? :lol:
> 
> I was of the understanding they would boost your production of natural growth hormone which would indirectly lead to muscle growth (amongst other things). I appreciate the amount is minimal, and the amount of growth is almost negligible compared to AAS, but over time peptides will assist in muscle growth.
> 
> Have I got this totally wrong?


Correct Ghrp does but like you said a long time doing so

I prefer to use peps for other benefits they can bring to the table and use AAS for growth


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## 3752

Dux said:


> What am I using GHRP2 and Mod GRF1-29 for then?


you tell us why are you using it??


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## Dux

Well hopefully for its recovery properties, to keep me relatively lean, and it's ability to help aid muscle growth.


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## Russianstar

Hi guys, here are 3 of my articles it might help

IGF1-LR3 What is it?

IGF-1 is basically a polypeptide hormone that has the same some of the same molecular properties as insulin. IGF dose actually stand for insulin-like growth factor. IGF-1 is mainly responsible for long bone growth in children and it also affects muscle growth and repair of adults. Long R3 IGF-1 is a more potent version of IGF-1. It's chemically altered i like to think "enhanced" to prevent deactivation by IGF-1 binding proteins in the bloodstream. This results in a longer half-life of 20-30 hours instead of 20 min... So that means a far more effective version than the short chain we we re perhaps more familiar with.

IGF1-LR3 What does it do?

IGF-1LR3 greatly boosts muscle mass by inducing a state of muscle hyperplasia (increase in number of new muscle cells) in the MUSCLE WHERE ITS INJECTED!!

So think of it as muscle cell proliferation, or even the splitting of the cell so 1 becomes 2... Thats why its perfect on cycle when you get increased muscle cell growth too.

But why is IGF better than HGH? The reason being is HGH causes IGF levels to rise in the liver first, then then the muscle, Whereas IGF-LR3 causes localised IGF levels to rocket.

What other benefits?

Taken froma study in germany..

"Tissue build up is one of the main features of IGF-1, so I'd say it's of greater value. IGF-1 can genetically change muscular and cellular counts within the body; it can also enhance the body's ability to regenerate damaged tissue. In fact, IGF-1 is now under intensive research for its potential to repair tissue in burn patients, and for its regenerative effects on AIDS patients suffering from muscular wasting. Immediate effects are, of course, impossible to observe since it takes a respectable amount of time to see any visible changes in muscular repair"

But muscle size and shape can be seen quite quickly through a course of IGF-LR3

Doseage and use..

The best dose for muscle cell proliferation is 40mcg bi-lateraly for men, and 20mcg for women... so 40mcg in one bicep and 40mcg in the other Pre-workout.

And 20 in each bicep for women. This can be done in any 2 matching muscle groups.

This should be done for 40 days max and then have 30 days off.

What you need to be carefull of is adequate carb intake when using IGF, Especialy this version as its long lasting, it will literaly leech glucose to cause its localised muscle enhancing effects, similar to the way in wich insulin works, This goes on for 7-10 hours, You should take in 20g of carbs 5 grams slow release and 15 g fast, for every hour its active for the first 7 hours.. so it looks like this.

Based on a mans dose, so a women halfs this.

Pre-workout.. 40mcg bi-lateraly. Then pwo meal of 40g carbs, 30 slow release and 10g fast release carbs... that covers you for 2 hours.

Post-workout. 40 grams carbs 30 grams low gi or slow release, and 10g fast release carbs. That covers you for 2 more hours..

2 Hours later so 4 hours since the injection the same again... that takes you up to 6 hours, at this point just consume carbs when you feel the need... if you feel light headed, or any signs of hypoglycemia.

Some people prefer to dose 70 g carbs with there pre-workout meal, and 70 grams of carbs 4 hours later, but themost anabolic option is the one i outlined, causing a constant supply of everything you need to maximise its effects.

Only dose on workout days and a maximum of 3 times a week.

Use a 1" insulin syringe and only inject directly into muscle, and reconstitue with Acetic acid, once reconstituted keep refrigerated and use within 6 months.

Why dose pre-workout?

When do you get muscle cell proliferation? This is when the muscle actualy breaks down during intense exercise, this causes localised IGF-1 levels to sky rocket, Thats why Arachadionic acid works, because it increased localised IGF-1 levels, causing an increased inflammatry response to muscle degradation or breakdown, So by using IGF-LR3 pre workout you recieve the benefits of Hyperplasia straight away, without waiting for nearly 2 hours to use your IGF.. So you increase the window of growth time period, during its most significant period.. You have just provided your muscle everything it needs for muscle growth at EXACTLY the right time.. before its broken down. Plus by eating your Pre workout meal you fuel your workout and allow for your muscles to take advantage of the huge pumps IGF-LR3 can cause as your muscles are flooded with nutrients, blood and increased localised IGF-1 levels.

Russians experiences.

Using the protocol i outlined above, after weeks of experimenting and trying new ideas i found great success.

I focused on my triceps and biceps, In 4 weeks of the above protocol i added a depth to my tricep horseshoe and shape that i havent seen in many other bodybuilders, and i increased the severity of my bicep peak, 0.5" increase in arm size, now that may not seem much, but when you think on most anabolic cycles that last 5 weeks or more those kind of gains are not really that common, i saw that as a big result especialy as i ran it stand alone, With no additional anabolics

Possible sides.

Lethargy is a big one as carbs are used to increase muscle cell proliferation and not used as readily for fuel.

The big one to watch out for is burning from the acetic acid when its reconstituted, and the Hypoglycemia, Always have plenty of carbs on hand in case the sides hit you hard!!!

Enjoy your use of IGF-LR3, add some shape and size to lagging parts.

Kind regards..

RS

This article will discuss the use of Mechano growth factor and clear up a few myths.

WHAT IS MGF?

Mechano Growth Factor (MGF) also known as IGF-1Ec is a growth factor/repair factor that is derived from exercised or damaged muscle tissue, Its called MGF as IGF-1Ec is a bit of a mouthful and harder to identify amongst the other igf variants.

What makes MGF special is its unique role in muscle growth.

MGF has the ability to cause wasted tissue to grow and improve itself by activating muscle stem cells and increasing the upregulation of protein synthesis, this unique ability can rapidly improve recovery and speed up muscle growth.

MGF can initiate muscle satellite (stem) cell activation in addition to its IGF-Ireceptor domain which ithen in turn ncreases protein synthesis turnover, and therefore can if used correctly improve muscle mass over time.

The liver produces 2 kinds of MGF splice variants of igf..

1) IGF-1Ec This is the first phase release igf splice variant and it appears to stimulate satellite cells into activation, This is the closest variant to synthetic MGF.

2) liver type IGF-IEa this is the secondary release of igf from the liver, and its far less anabolic.

MGF differs from the second variant IGF-IEa as it has a different peptide sequence which is responsible for replenishing the satellite cells in skeletal muscle, in other words it is more anabolic and longer acting than the systematic release of the second MGF liver variant.

So just think of MGF as a highly anabolic variant of igf. After you have trained, the IGF-I gene is spliced towards MGF then that causes hypertrophy and repair of local muscle damage by activating the muscle stem cells as well as other important anabolic processes, including the above mentioned protein synthesis, and increased nitrogen retention.

In rats some studies have shown muscle mass increases of 20 percent from a single mgf injection.. somewhow i think many of these studies are not accurate, however the potential is undeniable.

HOW TO USE MGF

Now when you train what happens to your muscles, they break down, the cells are damaged, muscle tissue needs to be repaired and your body produces 2 forms of MGF splice variant, The first initial release of the above mentioned number 1 variant from the liver helps muscle cell recovery, if there is no MGF then muscle cells die, thats the large and small of it.

As muscle is a post-mitotic tissue and as such cell replacement is not a means of tissue repair , If the cells are not repaired they die and your muscles get smaller and weaker.

The muscle The pool of these stem cells is apparently replenished by the action of MGF, which is produced as a pulse following damage.

Now with synthetic injections of MGF you can increase the pulse and so speed up recovery, and increase the muscle tissue cells by stimulating satelite cells into full maturity. 200mcg bi lateraly is the very best choice of dosing in muscles trained.

Thew only problem with MGF and this is the reason i dont like it, is that it has such a short half life, just a few minutes, between 5-7, and it needs to be used immediatley post workout as it wont work if muscle tissue hasnt been damaged, thats why for me personaly i think the best option is PEG MGF.

Nevertheless MGF has a huge role to play, and is administered to those with muscle wasting diseases and for those who are elderly and have lost muscle mass for good reason, it is EXTREMELY anabolic.

HOW TO USE PEG MGF

This is a very important section.

When using MGF thats pegylated thats the addition of Polyethylene glycol, its a non toxic additive that increased the half life of MGF from minutes to hours.

This means its uses and versatility make it a tremendous addition to a bodybuilders aresnal.

I have found it most effective as its effects are systematic, that means they have a whole body effect wherever muscle has been damaged or is diseased.

The next aspect we need to look at is how to make the most use of a long acting version of MGF.

When your muscle is damaged your body releases a pulse of an MGF splice variant as i outlined above, followed by a less anabolic longer acting version from the liver... So it seems a waste to inject MGF at this time as you will just blunt your bodys own release, your not enhaning it.

So using PEG MGF on non workout days is actualy the very best route, the muscle has been damaged, so there are plenty of receptors for MGF, the effects are systematic so all muscles will be helped to recover through increased nitrogen retention, protein turnover, and satelite cell activation. Recovery is just going to sky rocket.

Doing this means your increasing the length of your bodys own mechanism for muscle repair and growth, your opening up the anabolic window.

NOW PLEASE TAKE CAREFUL NOTE.

Running PEG MGF in synergy with IGF is perfect but there are things you need to know.

If you dose them at the same time, as IGF has such strong receptor affinity, The effectivness of MGF will just be wasted.

The best option and the very best choice i feel is this....

IGF DES on workout days Pre workout, or IGF1-LR3 this wont blunt your bodys own MGF release from the liver, and whereas IGF1-LR3 has a more systematic effect and only a very small localised anabolic effect, DES on the other hand is verty anabolic in a localised way, so bring up lagging muscle parts with DES, and then the following day Dose MGF at 200-400mcg subq to increase recovery and the mechanism for growth. Perfect synergy.

Over a 4 week run i noticed about 4lb increase with the PEG MGF and DES partnership. And roughly the same weight in fat loss, very impressive, some though have noted far greater increases in muscle mass.

If your on an AAS cycle there is no need for the addition of DES as IGF levels will already be elevated, then the addition of PEG MGF can take your recovery and gains to a new level.

STORAGE ETC

Dosing 3 times a week is best, and 1ml of BA water for every 2mg is optimal. Storage in the fridge for up to 6 months. Avoid exposure to heat or sunlight.


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## Russianstar

Igf1-lr3 As you all know is the long acting version of igf-1, Taking its active potential up towards 20 hours, But along with its ability to stimulate the growth of satalite muscle cells and helping them to mature into new muscle fibers it holds the ability to increase the uptake of many supplements we currently use, And it can cause the enhanced recovery of testicle size, and prevent muscle loss even in PCT.

Plus another reason its so potent is because of the decreased binding of Long R3 IGF-1 to all known IGF binding proteins. These binding proteins normally inhibit the biological actions of IGF.. not so with this long acting version.

Heres a quote from one of the top research doctors in the world, Dr sweeny the chairman of bioethics in 2002.

H. Lee Sweeney, Ph.D., Professor and Chairman of Physiology at the University of Pennsylvania and a recognized expert on the subject of the genetic enhancement of skeletal muscle, spoke to the World Anti-Doping Association with regard to the muscle building and regenerating properties of IGF-1.

"Rats that were given IGF-1 and did nothing were bigger and stronger than rats that werenâ€™t given IGF-1 but exercised. And Iâ€™ll bet you guessed that rats that were given IGF-1 and exercised were the biggest, strongest rats in the house. The positive effects of IGF-1 on the rats continued for months after the rats stopped getting the supplemental hormone, whereas the exercising rats immediately lost size and strength as soon as they stopped exercising.

In another study the muscle fibers of 27-month old rats â€" old age for rats â€" that were given IGF-1 during middle age, exhibited no deterioration of muscle fibers that indicate the classic and inevitable signs of aging. These rats did not lose any fast twitch muscle fibers â€" the fibers responsible for power and speed â€" and had the same speed and power output that they had when they were six months of age.

To quote Dr. Sweeney, â€œSo we were able to conclude that IGF-1 could prevent all of the hallmarks of age-related atrophy and loss of skeletal muscle function in mammalian aging, at least based on the rodent model, and now weâ€™re hoping to pursue this in larger animal models.â€

So how about IGF1-LR3, as those quotes were about plain igf?

According to Chemical Muscle Enhancement, a well-known underground PED guidebook written by Internet steroid guru L. Rea and available via download or through Amazon, IGF-1 has even been altered to increase its effectiveness, making IGF-1 ten times more potent (pages 134-136 of Chemical Muscle Enhancement). Several websites make reference to this altered form of IGF-1 â€" known as DES (1-3) IGF-1. This version of IGF-1, Insulin-like Growth Factor is also refereed to as Lr3IGF-1 (Note: Lr3IGF-1 is 2-3x more potent than regular IGF-1).

So increased potency, increased muscle retention... what else?

Well it increases the effectivness of an anabolic cycle, this is because of a very unique quality of igf-1-lr3, you see IGF-1 acts on several different tissues to enhance growth. IGF1 belongs in the â€™superfamilyâ€™ of substances known as â€˜growth factors,â€™ along with epidermal , transforming; platelet derived fibroblast, nerve, and ciliary neurotrophic growth factors. None of the other factors have any bearing on exoskeletal tissue incidentally however These agents all have in common the ability to stimulate cell division, known as mitogenesis, and cell differentiation. Meaning That In the case of IGF1 which does act on muscle tissue it will initiate the growth of new muscle fibers, and subsequently new receptors for testosterone. Many Users here on N2BM and on other forums have unanimously concluded that it enhances cycles of steroids significantly. They also seem to be adamant about its ability to reduce fat and improve vascularity a great deal.

Another suprising effect that remains largely unexplained is that it actualy Reverses testicular atrophy

Testicles if shrunken will return to â€œfull swingâ€ as it were even in the middle of a steroid cycle. If not shrunken they will not shrink during the cycle. This may explain partially why gains are kept after the cycle.

So imagine using this and HCGenerate on cycle, imagine the recovery in pct afterwards with full sized testicles!!

IGF-1 can be enhanced still further with an insulin mimicker, And Need2slin will cause even greater elevations in localised IGF-1 and the potential for more muscle growth and fat loss through its unique ability to drain fat cells and supply muscle cells with vital nutrients.


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## Russianstar

Igf can regulate muscle mass and there are two main mechanisms by which muscle mass may be increased: hypertrophy or an increase in myofibre size and hyperplasia or an increase in myofibre number. It is generally accepted that the number of fibres within a muscle is fixed during the perinatal period. It has been suggested, however, that myofibre splitting occurs if a myofibre becomes too large but this has not been reported in humans. New myofibres may also form as a result of fusion of satellite cells (see below) and small myotubes and myofibres expressing myogenic markers can be found in human muscle after training . Nevertheless, the consensus is that an increase in muscle cross-sectional area (CSA) is primarily due to an increase in myofibre CSA rather than myofibre number.

The balance between protein synthesis and degradation is a critical determinant of muscle CSA (Gibson et al., 1988; reviewed in Baar et al., 2006). Net protein synthesis results in greater myofibrillar content which is accommodated in a larger myofibres. Significant myofibre hypertrophy also requires an increase in the number of myonuclei so that a constant myonuclear domain (volume of cytoplasm supported by a single nucleus) is maintained. In a muscle, the ratio of DNA/protein is fairly constant.

Myofibres are post-mitotic cells, and their nuclei do not proliferate. New myonuclei are provided by a population called satellite cells. These cells lie just under the basal lamina of myofibres, and are normally found in a quiescent state. Once activated by exercise or muscle damage, satellite cells proliferate and fuse with existing muscle fibres, thus providing new nuclei for hypertrophy and repair. The absence of a satellite cell proliferative response following ?-irradiation of the muscle limits hypertrophic gain

Despite the lack of evidence for anabolic activity of GH in healthy humans, there is evidence for anticatabolic activity of GH as well as IGF-I. In a study comparing infusion of IGF-I with GH, it was demonstrated that both agents reduce negative nitrogen balance during calorific restriction in humans. A single dose of GH was administered during 24-h period, whereas IGF-I was infused continuously for 16h each day. Serum IGF-I concentrations were threefold higher in the IGF-I-treated subjects compared with those on GH, but the treatments were equally effective at reducing the negative nitrogen balance, and this is what i theorise to give IGF its best results in humans, positive nitrogen balance.

An important aspect to note though is taken from a study by world renowned doctor Spangenburg, ive condensed it slightly.

IGF-I stimulates the fusion of satellite cells with existing fibres, as determined by an increase in the number of myofibres with centrally versus peripherally located nuclei. Resistance exercise on its own does not appreciably increase the number of centrally located nuclei. Centrally located nuclei are considered to be an index of newly fused nuclei or new myofibre formation. As the myofibre matures, the nuclei move to the periphery of the cell. Thus, it is possible that exercise did not induce appreciable satellite cell activation and fusion or that exercise is important for maturation of fibres and peripheral localization/maturation of myofibres. Alternatively, persistent increased IGF-I may actually delay myofibre maturation.

So Even though i feel it works, i think its best used for 40 days max as receptors quickly become unresponsive to IGF and then it proves detrimental to our goals.

RS


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## sockie

Now put that in your pipe and smoke it.


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## 3752

Looks like we are disagreeing again RS  I have used IGF-1LR3 for many years from around 5 yrs ago when it first really raised its head and although I thought it was the dogs dangly's it really did nothing for me and I used varying doses and protocols from small doses (20mcg) to large doses (150mcg) per day with protocols ranging from everyday to 2-3 times a week before/after training, morning of and morning after training..........apart from a huge pump I really never saw any size gain for me it delivered nothing much if I am honest...........I have a feeling the small things guys feel from this peptide is from the pump?? I have yet to see real life gains


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## 3752

It needs to be also said that where as it is well documented what IGF-1 does in my opinion it is yet to be seen what synthetic IGF-1LR3 can show the same promise


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## Russianstar

Pscarb said:


> It needs to be also said that where as it is well documented what IGF-1 does in my opinion it is yet to be seen what synthetic IGF-1LR3 can show the same promise


I initialy saw changes that for me lasted, but i hold much less mass than you, and had never used growth , which i personaly feel causes lasting down regulation of igf receptors, thats my opinion. As for what you pointed out above, i do agree..

Disagreeing isnt such a bad thing if we can both be amicable about it... Debates with differing opinions offer the most enlightenment i think.


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## Russianstar

Pscarb said:


> Looks like we are disagreeing again RS  I have used IGF-1LR3 for many years from around 5 yrs ago when it first really raised its head and although I thought it was the dogs dangly's it really did nothing for me and I used varying doses and protocols from small doses (20mcg) to large doses (150mcg) per day with protocols ranging from everyday to 2-3 times a week before/after training, morning of and morning after training..........apart from a huge pump I really never saw any size gain for me it delivered nothing much if I am honest...........I have a feeling the small things guys feel from this peptide is from the pump?? I have yet to see real life gains


Can i just ask how you used carbs while using igf-lr3? And were you dosing pre or post workout?

Thanks bro.


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## 3752

Russianstar said:


> I initialy saw changes that for me lasted, but i hold much less mass than you, and had never used growth , which i personaly feel causes lasting down regulation of igf receptors, thats my opinion. As for what you pointed out above, i do agree..
> 
> Disagreeing isnt such a bad thing if we can both be amicable about it... Debates with differing opinions offer the most enlightenment i think.


Yes agreed i try to say this on all the forums I frequent debate is good, no one is right or wrong if it benefits others......I raved about IGF-1LR3 when I first used it it but after researching more about it I see no real use but that is just an opinion, I am currently using a method Dat used 2-3 yrs ago with high dose pMGF micro dosing 4-5hrs after a workout to see what it gives me, I can then have an opinion on it right or wrong it will be based on my experiences with the drug........


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## Russianstar

Pscarb said:


> Yes agreed i try to say this on all the forums I frequent debate is good, no one is right or wrong if it benefits others......I raved about IGF-1LR3 when I first used it it but after researching more about it I see no real use but that is just an opinion, I am currently using a method Dat used 2-3 yrs ago with high dose pMGF micro dosing 4-5hrs after a workout to see what it gives me, I can then have an opinion on it right or wrong it will be based on my experiences with the drug........


Personal experience is its own science, There is written science, how things should work, practical science, how it works, and then real life science... often very different to the way it seems it should work.

I have a few clients who found the protocol i gave them with igf to be very beneficial... but.. everyone is different... and perhaps the more matured muscle cells you have, and the longer your igf levels have been elevated, the less affect that synthetic igf can have upon the individual.

Looking fowards to your experiences.

RS


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## 3752

Russianstar said:


> Personal experience is its own science, There is written science, how things should work, practical science, how it works, and then real life science... often very different to the way it seems it should work.
> 
> I have a few clients who found the protocol i gave them with igf to be very beneficial... but.. everyone is different... and perhaps the more matured muscle cells you have, and the longer your igf levels have been elevated, the less affect that synthetic igf can have upon the individual.
> 
> Looking fowards to your experiences.
> 
> RS


thank you, this might be why I felt it did something at the beginning and nothing really of late? I do agree with you about the science though, so many get tied up in a study so much that they claim it to be absolute, only to dismiss real world experiences no one will ever reproduce the environment a study has so trying it yourself in my opinion is hugely important I do this a lot this is why I know for me multiple GH shots through the day gives me less sides and better results than one large shot.........I know this as I have tried both ways.........many will not do this but follow a protocol blindly then slate the drug or person when they do not see the same results.........if you follow me?


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## thoon

Pscarb said:


> thank you, this might be why I felt it did something at the beginning and nothing really of late? I do agree with you about the science though, so many get tied up in a study so much that they claim it to be absolute, only to dismiss real world experiences no one will ever reproduce the environment a study has so trying it yourself in my opinion is hugely important I do this a lot this is why I know for me multiple GH shots through the day gives me less sides and better results than one large shot.........*I know this as I have tried both ways.........many will not do this but follow a protocol blindly then slate the drug or person when they do not see the same results.*........if you follow me?


Very true the power of the internet is a funny thing .. Very similar to the biggest guy in the gym everyone will ask him what cycle he's doing and then replicate it , obviously forget to eat enough and blame the gear ,



Russianstar said:


> Personal experience is its own science, *There is written science, how things should work, practical science, how it works, and then real life science... often very different to the way it seems it should work*.
> 
> I have a few clients who found the protocol i gave them with igf to be very beneficial... but.. everyone is different... and perhaps the more matured muscle cells you have, and the longer your igf levels have been elevated, the less affect that synthetic igf can have upon the individual.
> 
> Looking fowards to your experiences.
> 
> RS


And this is also the key to real life use ...what works for one will not work for another ..


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## Russianstar

Pscarb said:


> thank you, this might be why I felt it did something at the beginning and nothing really of late? I do agree with you about the science though, so many get tied up in a study so much that they claim it to be absolute, only to dismiss real world experiences no one will ever reproduce the environment a study has so trying it yourself in my opinion is hugely important I do this a lot this is why I know for me multiple GH shots through the day gives me less sides and better results than one large shot.........I know this as I have tried both ways.........many will not do this but follow a protocol blindly then slate the drug or person when they do not see the same results.........if you follow me?


I think this could be the reasons behind your initial results, and feelings that it was a really great peptide. You are spot on as usual with your thesis, its because people seem to take written study as gospel even when there are hardly any studies done on healthy humans who have been training, The studies are nearly all on obese patients with diabetes, or who have muscle wasting diseases or auto immune problems, But those studys are taken as gospel, and real world results from experienced users are over looked as being "bro science"

Thats why the same questions keep coming up, year after year, How do i dose GH?, when should i take it? etc etc... Because people base ideas on studies, find they dont give the real world results they were looking for, so then and only then start asking people in the know.. only to get flamed half the time for asking...

Great post.


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## 3752

Russianstar said:


> I think this could be the reasons behind your initial results, and feelings that it was a really great peptide. You are spot on as usual with your thesis, its because people seem to take written study as gospel even when there are hardly any studies done on healthy humans who have been training, The studies are nearly all on obese patients with diabetes, or who have muscle wasting diseases or auto immune problems, But those studys are taken as gospel, and real world results from experienced users are over looked as being "bro science"
> 
> Thats why the same questions keep coming up, year after year, How do i dose GH?, when should i take it? etc etc... Because people base ideas on studies, find they dont give the real world results they were looking for, so then and only then start asking people in the know.. only to get flamed half the time for asking...
> 
> Great post.


sorry for the lateness in replying i have been travelling for work...

yes agreed on the above where as studies have there place to make you think about a method, way of using a drug it has to be relevant to be useful to us as a group, i found a study that was carried out on a number of subjects (small number though) where they set out to show that gains in muscle and a lower BF% is possible within 6 weeks of GH use (to dismiss the "you have to use it for 6 months"Theory they used pharma GH 3 x week at 8iu M/W/F and showed 2kg lean gain and a 2% drop in BF%(i think that is correct i have the numbers some where) so i copied the trial and was certainly happy with the results, so i can confidently say that if your using a quality product you can and will get positive results in 6 weeks

i have ordered my CJC with DAC and will be doing 2-4mg per week in 2 shots after my current trial of high dose pMGF and Boom dosing IPAM is complete.....

on the subject of IPAM i recall you mentioning that 200mcg of IPAM depleted GH stores can you point me in the direction of the study? (as this would have to be a study) you got this from as this is very intriguing to me as if this is the case with IPAM would it not be the case with the other GHRP's??


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## Russianstar

Pscarb said:


> sorry for the lateness in replying i have been travelling for work...
> 
> yes agreed on the above where as studies have there place to make you think about a method, way of using a drug it has to be relevant to be useful to us as a group, i found a study that was carried out on a number of subjects (small number though) where they set out to show that gains in muscle and a lower BF% is possible within 6 weeks of GH use (to dismiss the "you have to use it for 6 months"Theory they used pharma GH 3 x week at 8iu M/W/F and showed 2kg lean gain and a 2% drop in BF%(i think that is correct i have the numbers some where) so i copied the trial and was certainly happy with the results, so i can confidently say that if your using a quality product you can and will get positive results in 6 weeks
> 
> i have ordered my CJC with DAC and will be doing 2-4mg per week in 2 shots after my current trial of high dose pMGF and Boom dosing IPAM is complete.....
> 
> on the subject of IPAM i recall you mentioning that 200mcg of IPAM depleted GH stores can you point me in the direction of the study? (as this would have to be a study) you got this from as this is very intriguing to me as if this is the case with IPAM would it not be the case with the other GHRP's??


Its great when somone stimulates your neurons!

Very interesting, so do you feel the reason why GH often needs to be run for such a long period is because of either the amounts being used, or the timing of the doses, maybe to far apart? I ask this as you had said that you use GH as multiple injections a day and find it far more effective like that

I would love to see that study.

As for what i had said to you earlier about ipamorelin emptying the pituitary at 200mcg, i was mistaken i looked through my papers and found this quote.

A mega-dose of ipamorelin results in a mega-release of GH (up to the entire amount that is actualy present in the pituitary), whereas GHRP-2 and GHRP-6 have limits of approximately 1mcg/kg in humans for their maximal GH release

So its seems your boom dosing may very well achieve the goal you wanted, and could well explain the improved sleep, and dismiss my theory of having other actions that improve its affects on Delta wave sleep. Even though i believe as a pentapeptide with unique actions it may well affect sleep in a very specific manner.

Id like to put something your way, as your experienced both in peptides and synthetic GH administration.

Do you think that peptides have the potential to cause premature aging of the pituitary, this is something im studying in detail.

I say this because using a GHRP, your releasing stores of GH, then your refueling the pituitary, and empyting it again or releasing larger amounts than normal... We know the pituitary can get sluggish, so would we be tiring the pituitary like this? Perhaps Synthetic GH actualy takes a lot of the work load off the pituitary and thus allow for a more dynamic GH release as we get older? Im starting to think peptides may cause long term problems.

The pituitary gland is a hormone-responsive gland and is known to vary in size depending on the hormonal status of the patient and the multifaceted positive and negative feedback hypothalamic-pituitary-gonadal axis. Partial empty sella syndrome with an atrophied pituitary gland is seen in primary neuroendocrinopathies such as growth hormone deficiency, primary hypothyroidism, central diabetes insipidus and hypogonadism. Partial empty sella has also been shown to occur in patients with elevations in intracranial pressure. Secondary partial empty sella syndrome with significant pituitary gland atrophy from negative feedback inhibition of long-term exogenous hormonal use has not been previously reported. We are reporting on a case of partial empty sella syndrome occurring in an elite bodybuilder with a long history of exogenous abuse of growth hormone, testosterone and thyroid hormone. The pathophysiological mechanisms of secondary partial empty sella syndrome from exogenous hormone use and the possibility for elevations in intracranial pressure contributing to this syndrome will be discussed

Neurol Res 2001 Jun;23(4):336-8 Related Articles, Links

Secondary partial empty sella syndrome in an elite bodybuilder.

erman RD, Jaikumar S.

National Institutes of Neurological Disorders and Stroke, National Institutes of Health, Surgical Neurology Branch, Bethesda, MD, USA. [email protected]

What are your thoughts?

I will look fowards to seeing what you think of that dosing protocol for CJC-1295 DAC..

RS


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## 3752

Russianstar said:


> Its great when somone stimulates your neurons!
> 
> Very interesting, so do you feel the reason why GH often needs to be run for such a long period is because of either the amounts being used, or the timing of the doses, maybe to far apart? I ask this as you had said that you use GH as multiple injections a day and find it far more effective like that


yes you are correct i split the dose when i used the GH in this manner over the summer as i have found that multiple shots (GH pulsing) gives me less sides and slightly better results than one big hit per day.



Russianstar said:


> I would love to see that study.


http://www.datbtrue.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?699-968-Body-composition-response-to-exogenous-GH-while-training-in-highly-conditioned-adults



Russianstar said:


> As for what i had said to you earlier about ipamorelin emptying the pituitary at 200mcg, i was mistaken i looked through my papers and found this quote.
> 
> A mega-dose of ipamorelin results in a mega-release of GH (up to the entire amount that is actualy present in the pituitary), whereas GHRP-2 and GHRP-6 have limits of approximately 1mcg/kg in humans for their maximal GH release
> 
> So its seems your boom dosing may very well achieve the goal you wanted, and could well explain the improved sleep, and dismiss my theory of having other actions that improve its affects on Delta wave sleep. Even though i believe as a pentapeptide with unique actions it may well affect sleep in a very specific manner.


i think so i used it last night and slept like a baby woke up refreshed but i do believe the extended half life of IPAM might contribute to this.......given that you get a second hit 4-5hrs later....



Russianstar said:


> Id like to put something your way, as your experienced both in peptides and synthetic GH administration.
> 
> Do you think that peptides have the potential to cause premature aging of the pituitary, this is something im studying in detail.
> 
> I say this because using a GHRP, your releasing stores of GH, then your refueling the pituitary, and empyting it again or releasing larger amounts than normal... We know the pituitary can get sluggish, so would we be tiring the pituitary like this? Perhaps Synthetic GH actualy takes a lot of the work load off the pituitary and thus allow for a more dynamic GH release as we get older? Im starting to think peptides may cause long term problems.
> 
> The pituitary gland is a hormone-responsive gland and is known to vary in size depending on the hormonal status of the patient and the multifaceted positive and negative feedback hypothalamic-pituitary-gonadal axis. Partial empty sella syndrome with an atrophied pituitary gland is seen in primary neuroendocrinopathies such as growth hormone deficiency, primary hypothyroidism, central diabetes insipidus and hypogonadism. Partial empty sella has also been shown to occur in patients with elevations in intracranial pressure. Secondary partial empty sella syndrome with significant pituitary gland atrophy from negative feedback inhibition of long-term exogenous hormonal use has not been previously reported. We are reporting on a case of partial empty sella syndrome occurring in an elite bodybuilder with a long history of exogenous abuse of growth hormone, testosterone and thyroid hormone. The pathophysiological mechanisms of secondary partial empty sella syndrome from exogenous hormone use and the possibility for elevations in intracranial pressure contributing to this syndrome will be discussed
> 
> Neurol Res 2001 Jun;23(4):336-8 Related Articles, Links
> 
> Secondary partial empty sella syndrome in an elite bodybuilder.
> 
> erman RD, Jaikumar S.
> 
> National Institutes of Neurological Disorders and Stroke, National Institutes of Health, Surgical Neurology Branch, Bethesda, MD, USA. [email protected]
> 
> What are your thoughts?
> 
> I will look fowards to seeing what you think of that dosing protocol for CJC-1295 DAC..
> 
> RS


from what i am reading of the above the problem has been noticed in elite BB's from using synthetic GH not peptides unless i am reading it wrongly?? i do wonder sometimes how much peptides can release from the gland although from my understanding peptides(GHRP/GHRH) don't increase production as we all produce the same throughout our lives but open the valve for the release of GH back to the way it did when we was all in our late teens, does this badly effect the gland? i am not sure because they kick off a natural action rather than what synthetic does.......but in this thinking wouldn't CJC DAC have this problem more as they release a constant pulse a large output using the doses you have mentioned??

just thinking if you are constantly releasing GH like you would with CJC w DAC would that not be worse than pulsing from the use of GHRP/GRF??


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## Russianstar

Pscarb said:


> yes you are correct i split the dose when i used the GH in this manner over the summer as i have found that multiple shots (GH pulsing) gives me less sides and slightly better results than one big hit per day.
> 
> *I find that really interesting, thank you.*
> 
> http://www.datbtrue.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?699-968-Body-composition-response-to-exogenous-GH-while-training-in-highly-conditioned-adults
> 
> *Again very interesting study*
> 
> i think so i used it last night and slept like a baby woke up refreshed but i do believe the extended half life of IPAM might contribute to this.......given that you get a second hit 4-5hrs later....
> 
> *Yes it is truley a unique peptide.*
> 
> from what i am reading of the above the problem has been noticed in elite BB's from using synthetic GH not peptides unless i am reading it wrongly?? i do wonder sometimes how much peptides can release from the gland although from my understanding peptides(GHRP/GHRH) don't increase production as we all produce the same throughout our lives but open the valve for the release of GH back to the way it did when we was all in our late teens, does this badly effect the gland? i am not sure because they kick off a natural action rather than what synthetic does.......but in this thinking wouldn't CJC DAC have this problem more as they release a constant pulse a large output using the doses you have mentioned??
> 
> *I used that to show if synthetic causes a problem, surely a GHRP would cause more of a problem, im thinking if its overused?*
> 
> *
> *
> 
> *
> I dont feel its a problem as CJC with DAC doesnt empty the pituitary, and and is a Growth hormone releasing hormone, increasing the number of somatotropes that release GH, but not emptying it the pituitary which is what sort of concerns me more, though there is no evidence to show it is a danger, in GHRP's either, your reasoning makes sense though, i just felt it would me more the emptying and refilling, rather than the stimulation to release, With a GHRH it suggests in studies if your not able to produce the GH it wont be released significantly, but with a GHRP regardless of your health it will...*
> 
> *
> *
> 
> *
> **http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8959075*
> 
> *
> *
> 
> *
> There are better studies than this ive seen but i cant find them, i shall look... showing a GHRH wont release GH above baseline levels if there are things wrong with the individual, suggesting it pushes towards natural homeostatis, where as a GHRP will release according to doseage... which suggests to me possible danger if the Pituitary is struggling, or perhaps it could be made to struggle by over work.*
> 
> *
> Its just an idea of mine...*
> 
> just thinking if you are constantly releasing GH like you would with CJC w DAC would that not be worse than pulsing from the use of GHRP/GRF??


*Its possible it might be... i think more studies are needed though*


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## Dux

The IGF-1 Long R3 seems to come in vials of 1mg, how long would that last following your protocol @Russianstar


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## Russianstar

Dux said:


> The IGF-1 Long R3 seems to come in vials of 1mg, how long would that last following your protocol @Russianstar


Pre-workout.. 40mcg bi-lateraly. Then pwo meal of 40g carbs, 30 slow release and 10g fast release carbs... that covers you for 2 hours.

Post-workout. 40 grams carbs 30 grams low gi or slow release, and 10g fast release carbs. That covers you for 2 more hours..

2 Hours later so 4 hours since the injection the same again... that takes you up to 6 hours, at this point just consume carbs when you feel the need... if you feel light headed, or any signs of hypoglycemia.

So lets say 80mcg 3 times a week.. 240mcg

so 4 weeks 960mcg leaving you 40mcg to use sometime or add on to an injection... i suggest running this protocol for 8 weeks then having 4 weeks off.

Hope that helps bro.


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## Dux

Yep, definitely. Thanks.

Would it not be possible to run alongside GHRP2 and Mod GRP 1-29 due to the spacing needed of carbs between injections with them?


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## greekgod

Hi RussianStar. based on yr protocol with meals of 30/10 ratio pre and postworkout, then u say another meal 2 hrs after the post workout meal.how would i impliment it if im training approx 8pm, surely the late nite carbs would cause fat gain ??


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## Russianstar

greekgod said:


> Hi RussianStar. based on yr protocol with meals of 30/10 ratio pre and postworkout, then u say another meal 2 hrs after the post workout meal.how would i impliment it if im training approx 8pm, surely the late nite carbs would cause fat gain ??


If its late at night use slow releasing carbs so the IGF can do its work.. ive never known anyone put weight on using igf-lr3 when eating healthily... it causes fat loss.


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## Russianstar

@ dux Um in between meals then yes.


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## Dux

Russianstar said:


> @ dux Um in between meals then yes.


I'll try and work something out around fitting the jabs in with the others and their meal times.

Edit to include: I usually take ghrp2 and GRP 1-29 first thing in the morning, a couple of hours after my morning session then again before bed, with hgh 30 mins after the first 2 injections, then eat 30 mins after that.

I'm thinking if I combined the two with IGF long R3 I could do as you say with the pre and post jabs, then the meals, and do my second lot of ghrp2/grp1-29 and hgh late afternoon/early evening to allow the carbs to have got out of my system. Obviously if I felt like I needed more carbs I'd eat and push the jabs back further.

At the mo I'm using Methyl Tren pre workout so I may give the IGF a try in the new year.


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## 3752

Russianstar said:


> *Its possible it might be... i think more studies are needed though*


certainly mate, you have given me things to think about which i thank you for as i like to challenge myself to grow both in muscle size and knowledge......i will trial the GHRH (CJC) in the new year and see what this gives me


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## thoon

Russianstar said:


> Pre-workout.. 40mcg bi-lateraly. Then pwo meal of 40g carbs, 30 slow release and 10g fast release carbs... that covers you for 2 hours.
> 
> Post-workout. 40 grams carbs 30 grams low gi or slow release, and 10g fast release carbs. That covers you for 2 more hours..
> 
> 2 Hours later so 4 hours since the injection the same again... that takes you up to 6 hours, at this point just consume carbs when you feel the need... if you feel light headed, or any signs of hypoglycemia.
> 
> So lets say 80mcg 3 times a week.. 240mcg
> 
> so 4 weeks 960mcg leaving you 40mcg to use sometime or add on to an injection... i suggest running this protocol for 8 weeks then having 4 weeks off.
> 
> Hope that helps bro.


I dont understand why use Lr3 pre w/out

2 hours post yep im with that


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## Russianstar

@thoon ,After my radio interview and article i wrote on mgf and igf, People are worried that...

Lr3 is pointless pre work out wasted and totally interferers with your natural MGF production

*If it was a shorter acting version, the binding to igf receptors would be far greater and this would cause problems with it blunting the affects of MGF, IGF-I exists in multiple isoforms (tissue-specific proteins of functional and structural similarity, and it binds to receptors accordingly.*

*
MGF is expressed by mechanically overloaded muscle and is involved in tissue repair and adaptation. It is expressed as a pulse following muscle damage and is apparently involved in the activation of muscle satellite cells.. if IGF was injected at the same time as MGF then a blunting of each others affects would occur, but pre workout, the long acting IGF1-LR3 has already started to bind, and its affects will become available only to where it is now in effect, once MGF is released following exercise, then it wont interfere as it will have no circulating igf to interfere with it, as the specific isoforms of IGF will be bound*.

Lr3 is used either 2 hours post work out IM in to the muscle trained

*
Actualy it can be used injected into fat, and its systematic affects become more even, if its used 2 hours post workout , there is no problem with this..*.

Or 12 hours before working out

* Pretty pointless*

Hope that clears things up.


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## thoon

Russianstar said:


> @thoon ,After my radio interview and article i wrote on mgf and igf, People are worried that...
> 
> Lr3 is pointless pre work out wasted and totally interferers with your natural MGF production
> 
> *If it was a shorter acting version, the binding to igf receptors would be far greater and this would cause problems with it blunting the affects of MGF, IGF-I exists in multiple isoforms (tissue-specific proteins of functional and structural similarity, and it binds to receptors accordingly.*
> 
> *
> MGF is expressed by mechanically overloaded muscle and is involved in tissue repair and adaptation. It is expressed as a pulse following muscle damage and is apparently involved in the activation of muscle satellite cells.. if IGF was injected at the same time as MGF then a blunting of each others affects would occur, but pre workout, the long acting IGF1-LR3 has already started to bind, and its affects will become available only to where it is now in effect, once MGF is released following exercise, **then it wont interfere as it will have no circulating igf to interfere with it, as the specific isoforms of IGF will be bound*.
> 
> Lr3 is used either 2 hours post work out IM in to the muscle trained
> 
> *
> Actualy it can be used injected into fat, and its systematic affects become more even, if its used 2 hours post workout , there is no problem with this..*.
> 
> Or 12 hours before working out
> 
> * Pretty pointless*
> 
> Hope that clears things up.


Ill be honest mate ive followed you for a long wile on other forums And listened to your radio broadcast ..and some of my theories originated from your first pep trials .. ...if i read eg med trials we see that Igf is created pre w/our with meal then again wile training but at low pulses ,the important part is the natty or otherwise injected MGF that's created after training ,, so ..IMO this pulse of MGF would not be as strong or at worst canceled out if Lr3 was used Pre w/our ... But optimum time for Lr3 would be 1.30-2.00 hr Post w/out

Can you explain the bit in bold about MGF and Lr3 working together ?

Only reason i wouldn't use it sub q is it will go systematic so will attach to any stem cell that has been primed for differentiation eg Gut .. so i personally will use it IM In to the muscle just trained

Have your views changed ?


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## 3752

i don't agree with what you have said about no interference with MGF post workout if IGF-1 is injected pre-WO, from the research i have carried out once MGF is released after training proliferation is started of the damaged muscle cells this stops as soon as IGF-1 is present be this naturally or from synthetic injections, because IGF-1LR3 is a longer acting IGF-1 due to its bonding it will still be present and thus will interfere with the role MGF plays, both will not be cancelled out as such but the first stage of the muscle building process will be (as IGF will stop the proliferation)...

i have over the last 3 weeks carried out large dose shots of pMGF 4hrs post workout followed the next morning with GHRP/GHRH so the natural conversion to IGF-1 will happen this gives me a good 12hrs of proliferation in the muscle i have trained and micro dosed with the pMGF i am seeing very good results much better than when i used IGF-1LR3 or pMGF/MGF combined with IGF-1LR3 in the past and it has only been 3 weeks......

i placed a sticky in this section showing all currently available scientific evidence based on in vivo studies indicates that IGF1 plays no role in normal, exercise-induced muscle hypertrophy, it took me a long time to understand this and the results i am getting now from just pMGF and promoting natural IGF-1 release shows me this is a much better protocol than i ever had injecting IGF-1LR3


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## Andrewgenic

To much to read in this thread so heres a bump for l;ater.


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## Russianstar

Pscarb said:


> i don't agree with what you have said about no interference with MGF post workout if IGF-1 is injected pre-WO, from the research i have carried out once MGF is released after training proliferation is started of the damaged muscle cells this stops as soon as IGF-1 is present be this naturally or from synthetic injections, because IGF-1LR3 is a longer acting IGF-1 due to its bonding it will still be present and thus will interfere with the role MGF plays, both will not be cancelled out as such but the first stage of the muscle building process will be (as IGF will stop the proliferation)...
> 
> i have over the last 3 weeks carried out large dose shots of pMGF 4hrs post workout followed the next morning with GHRP/GHRH so the natural conversion to IGF-1 will happen this gives me a good 12hrs of proliferation in the muscle i have trained and micro dosed with the pMGF i am seeing very good results much better than when i used IGF-1LR3 or pMGF/MGF combined with IGF-1LR3 in the past and it has only been 3 weeks......
> 
> i placed a sticky in this section showing all currently available scientific evidence based on in vivo studies indicates that IGF1 plays no role in normal, exercise-induced muscle hypertrophy, it took me a long time to understand this and the results i am getting now from just pMGF and promoting natural IGF-1 release shows me this is a much better protocol than i ever had injecting IGF-1LR3


Time and again i think weve pointed out what happens in the real world is different from what happens on paper... so i wont argue as your experience is far vaster than mine. And knowledge isnt wisdom... Wisdome is practical application of knowledge, and EXPERIENCE.

Despite my qualifications Thoon... i suggest Pscarb would be a far better person to advise you.

If you still want my point of view on the matter, please feel free to ask on this thread and il answer.

Kindest Regards RS


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## Jpeg3000

Pscarb said:


> There is no peptide that gives direct muscle growth in normal doses your a fool if you think otherwise, there is a theory boom dosing pMGF does have an effect when micro dosed I am trialling this at the moment.
> 
> In my opinion from many years using it IGF-1 LR3 is useless unless you have an injury......yes it gives a pump but that is not muscle growth


I am interested in what your saying about it helping with injuries? I have IGF-1 lr3 and mechano growth factor on hand and really smashed my neck and shoulder up playing rugby yesterday, it's muscular/ligament injury, could either of these peptides help?

Cheer pscarb. Also is it you that runs Cardiff sports nutrition? My mates at uni go on about this place ad I'm sure I have seen it on the forum!


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## alessandro79

Hello RS,

I'm on MGF terapy since 1st april '15. I'm injecting 20mcg bilateral in the trained muscles.

I tried to increase dosage, but over 30mcg bilateral I had a big problem: a lot of embarrassing sweating for next 24 hours

I'm using MGF from

Any ideas?

TKU


----------



## thoon

alessandro79 said:


> Hello RS,
> 
> I'm on MGF therapy since 1st april '15. I'm injecting 20mcg bilateral in the trained muscles.
> 
> I tried to increase dosage, but over 30mcg bilateral I had a big problem: a lot of embarrassing sweating for next 24 hours
> 
> I'm using MGF from
> 
> Any ideas?
> 
> TKU


As its a old thread you bumped up , You might be better starting a fresh thread , , But still we all have our opinions from personal trials and experiments with different peptide combinations , and if someone said to me run for eg LR3 in this way to gain better results i would try it as the peptide scene is still a goldmine of undiscovered information .

@: alessandro79 Ill be honest ive never had sweating from using MGF Especially at such a low dose .

Ill leave this for Pscarb to answer


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## Dave_shorts

I've used mgf twice now and never been like that at all!!!!


----------

