# I started my diet and quit drinking.



## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Well, I started my diet and quit drinking

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Day 2 no alcohol and day 3 of diet (keto).

Man, this is hard stopping drinking and dieting all at the same time.

For some reason I can not sleep at night and am really short with people.

I have no patience what so ever.

The weight is comming off too fast too but that is water.

I was way down in the gym yesterday and I know on low carb diets you need to take it easy at first before the ketones take effect.

Checked to see if I was in ketosis this morning with the keto sticks and not yet.

This transition period from detoxing from alcohol (drank for 25 years) and slipping into burning fat instead of carbs is murder.

I dont want to take anything to handle anxiety or sleeping pills but I was late to work today as I didnt sleep last night or the night before.

Tossed and turned all night and could not get comfortable.

Grabbed this copy and paste:

This is because alcohol interrupts the normal sleep cycle.

When you first stop drinking, you may notice that your sleep pattern is still disturbed for a while - this will settle down as your body adapts to being alcohol-free.

And noticed this for sure:

Alcohol reduces REM sleep - there is a rebound effect after a detox and people are often able to recall very vivid dreams, because they are having this extra REM sleep or even hallucinations.

All in all I am excited about this diet and will probably do 10 weeks to get down to my desired weight.

Then I will take some pictures.

But man oh man what a rough road doing both at the same time


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## RAIKEY (Jun 30, 2005)

we need a few before pics tho........

for the comparison......

leave the shirt on if yer want......lol


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## BL1 (Jan 8, 2006)

I've been dieting for the last couple of weeks - just cutting the calarie intake and doing a lot of cv. I've been having real trouble sleeping or waking early and having a really restless night. I've never suffered from anything like this before but i'm not getting to bed till the early hours then feeling knackered all day !!


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Well, on the hollidays I packed 8 lbs on eating crap.

I dont mind doing the before and after picks but I am keeping a log with the measurements and weight.

I should have a pick but I think it is embarassing.

Im 204 this morning and was 208 on the 3rd of this month.

But right now from water loss I lost a lb from yesterday.

That is the first thing you will notice on a keto diet is water loss, really any diet for that matter.

But it is the anxiety that is getting me and the loss of sleep.


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## Lee1436114491 (Jun 6, 2004)

Determination is the key mate, sounds like your doing well..

Would you post your typical intake of food in a day on the keto diet?

Im going to do some more cutting soon


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Lee said:


> Would you post your typical intake of food in a day on the keto diet?


Sure Lee,

I had some coffee with whole cream and 2 tsp of sugar (I am going to drop that)

Had 6 eggs yesterday.

I can of tuna with a half a avacado.

nuts (macadamia as they are the highest in fat and lowest in carbs @ 1 grem per nut)

Meat.

Cheese

for dinner I had some really fatty ground beef with garlic, man was that good.

I also doubled my amount of water in the day, hey that is easy when you are not pounding the beersmg:

Cals are still a bit low but I really wasnt hungry, I was just irritable from going into detox from not drinking, and probably low carbing it too.

I need to add the fish oils to excellerate all this but my chick ripped me off of a bunch of supps and I dont feel like spending the money right now.


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## Lee1436114491 (Jun 6, 2004)

Thanks Hacks, that actually sounds pretty good 

At first when on the diet do you get much light headedness or head aches due to lack of carbs at all?


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

I did get a headache yesterday not bad but I could feel it but not enough to take an asprin.

I was short tempered a bit but I dont know if that is because of withdrawls from alcohol or being hypoglycemic.

All is good tho when you slip into ketosis, takes about 3-4 days depending on the amount of carbohydrates and amount of fat intake, not to mention the glycogen stores in the liver.


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## TypeR (May 28, 2004)

i havnt drunk since the start of the new year and i goto be honest i am looking foward to my cheat day on friday going down the local curry house and going to sink a few beers! as well as have my 1st bit of "bad" food!!

good luck hacks! treat your self to a few beers on your cheat day


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## Carnivore (Apr 7, 2004)

damn man, cold turkey? why not get some of those nancy low calorie beers?


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Carnivore said:


> damn man, cold turkey? why not get some of those nancy low calorie beers?


I did that last time, but ended up drinking too many of those too.

I still could lose but not like I wanted.

If I keep off the beer I should acheive my goal pretty east.

When I was 37 I dieted down and got down to 163 lbs, which by the way lost way too much lean muscle.

Sure, I could bang out 3 sets of 20 reps on pullups but I lost way too much muscle.

In the end I had to up the carbs cuz I kept losing and losing and it got to the point I was eating 7 meals a day and was still losing.

I think I looked pretty good back then and if I knew then what I knew now, I would have dropped some test into the picture and put on 15 lbs

Not to mention back then I was pulling alot of chicks too.

They like that athletic look better than the teddy bear look I think.

I remember I was wrestling a friend that weighed about 220 and I couldnt do anything to him at that weight.

Now, I dont think he could do anything to me. 

I am stronger at this weight but you have to lug around all that extra weight day in and day out.


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## chrisgatguis (Nov 14, 2005)

just out of interest hacks how much were u drinkin in an average week?


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## dirtride (Jan 19, 2005)

good job hacks, keep it up work. Just stopping the drinking is a mission in itself.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Oh, every day after work I would go to this bar accross the street.

Grab a shot of tequilla (1.5 oz) get a 16 oz of beer.

Drink that then go to the liquor store next door and grab a six pack.

Take that home and have that during the evening, while I post on the board.

$10.00 at the bar them about $7.00 at the liquor store, every day. Do the math on that $510.00 a month with various weekenders that were more expensive than that:eek:

I have been drinking for 25 years.

First night with no alcohol or carbs=night sweats (felt like the flu)

Second night=could not sleep for nothing and was hot and cold.

third night=  ...well no third nitght yet but to sleep I think I will take something drastic like a muscle relaxer (flexeril)..That will put me out.

I did have a diet Dr. Pepper last night over ice in a cold glass and that was yummy


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## chrisgatguis (Nov 14, 2005)

ah well keep it up i used to drink quite a lot when i was younger much better now probs only have one binj per 2 weeks. i bet in a week ul be sleepin much better after the initial lack of carbs/booze. Stick in there!!


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

chrisgatguis said:


> ah well keep it up i used to drink quite a lot when i was younger much better now probs only have one binj per 2 weeks. i bet in a week ul be sleepin much better after the initial lack of carbs/booze. Stick in there!!


Thanks man, I am actually excited about it and I actually dont have very many cravings.

This is actually confusing to me tho.

Like something happend like a switch turned off.

I didnt think about it at all yesterday, but today I thought id be nice to have a beer to take the edge off of the edgeness.


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## BL1 (Jan 8, 2006)

Hello mate - sounds like your hanging in there !!

Have you been experiencing any dizziness and hows the training been going ?? (just interested) :lift:


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Yah, I feel better today.

I had to take some stuff to go to sleep last nigh.

I got some good stuff from my brother today so sleeping should not be a problem now

I will take some of this for a few days and by that time the detox should be better and the body will be used to the diet.


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## BL1 (Jan 8, 2006)

Good to hear mate - keep us updated on your progress, cheers


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Oh yah, no beer, even no weed, but no sleep either.

For some reason I can not sleep and when I finally do I slept 1 hour over my alarm clock:eek:

Dammit late to work today from that

I have lost 2.5 lbs in 5 days but there is some water there tho.

I am feeling better and not so short with people.

Another day or so and I should be good as gold.


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## BL1 (Jan 8, 2006)

Hows your diet going mate (...........and the quitting drinking!!!!)

How much weight have you lost ? Still on a low carb regime ??


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Yes, still low carb, I have lost 10.5 lbs in just over 4 weeks.

But the good part is I lose 3" on my waist.

So that tells me it is mostly fat.

Still dont drink but I do go out on the weekends but dont get sloshed, but I do go out for a reward. Tends to halt fat loss but I still have to live too.

I dont get high anymore as I just dont like how it makes me feel.

I want to be ready for the River in May, big weekend there and many many single hot chicks

I notice the most results with just eggs and cheese at night.

I do like this collagen stuff I am taking just before bed, every time I take that I feel leaner when I wake up in the morning.

That stuff is very expensive and I dont know why as it is a very crude form of protein.

Been used in weight loss for over 28 years in hospitals.

So far I am happy with my losses, I am motivated too, and feel really good.

One thing I do notice though is I smell diffrent and after working a long day with overtime and going to the gym my body odor is diffrent and it is not for the better.

Oh, and there is mild constipation too

Other than that, every thing is alright........


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## DeATH JeSTeR (Feb 1, 2006)

glad to hear your doing well still, are you on any fat burners dude?


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

DeATH JeSTeR said:


> glad to hear your doing well still, are you on any fat burners dude?


Nah, I have clen, eph, yohimbe too but stimulants make my have a stiff neck.

I do alot of work on the computer at work and also hanging out here and it makes my neck stiff.

I dont like being uptight or tense either as I am naturally like that.

I would like to get my hands on some GH though, that stuff strips the fat off of me fast while preserving lean muscle tissue.


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## peachy (Mar 20, 2005)

good luck dude! stopping drinking is crazy talk man,crazy


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## dynamatiz (Nov 7, 2005)

hey hackskii, keep up the good work mate, glad to here your stickin with it bud, av jus been reading your thread, and sounds like a nightmare

a used to curse me self for having a skinny a** frame, but doest sound to bad after hearing the stuff your going through 

only joking mate keep it up mate, then chicks are gonna come stalking :bounce:


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

peachy said:


> good luck dude! stopping drinking is crazy talk man,crazy


I do go out on weekends and prowl for unsuspecting women. mg:

I dont know tho, many have their heads in the clouds talking a bunch of crap while trying to BS me. I hate that, Most of the time I see through that but that does not stop them from talking BS.

I do go out on the weekends tho.

But at the moment I am looking for a Mate to settle down withmg:

I know, "*Watch out what you ask for as you just might get it!*"


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## bobbyrlg (Jan 8, 2005)

Keep up the good work man, glad to hear you are doing well


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## Peg (Feb 9, 2006)

If you are anxious, try increasing your Ca/Mg intake 2/1 ratio an hour before you go to bed 1000mg/500mg

Milk and nuts are good source but also high carb so I take the vitamins instead.

Also foods rich in tryptophan are good sleep inducers as well. Milk products, eggs, turkey.

When I go low carbs after having high carb intake, I always get anxious. It takes a few days to adjust.. and the Ca/Mg and tryptophan always has worked for me.

It does feel good though once adjusted..

Glad you are finding your answers. I just thought I would share mine with you.

Here's to lean and mean...

I'm looking to get lean and stunning though... by July. LOL!


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## John (Jun 5, 2004)

stick with it mate.


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## Tatyana (Jan 29, 2006)

Absolutely fantastic mate! DEtox is hell, but beer and alcohol are like (said in a slavic accent) "liquid bread"

I am not a big fan of the ATkins diet, think it is a good way to kick start, however most BBers don't do one and manage to cut fat quite well. They do cut the dairy though, as dairy makes you look soft!!

You and me mate both in the detox with the interrupted sleep patterns!

Team Detox and Truth, that's us that is

Big Hug and Kiss


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## BL1 (Jan 8, 2006)

Hacks mate thats excellent progress - well done for sticking do it and cutting the beer down. !0.5lbs loss/3inchs off the waist - bet the jeans are fitting a bit nicer now !!!

I'm assuming your still doing no cardio ?? Are you having any cheap or carb up days ??


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

I up the carbs some but still no cardio and now I am 11 lbs lighter today.

What I think is nice last time I dieted I lost 1" for every 5 lbs of weight.

I am above that at the moment with 3" for 11 lbs.

Hey what better indication for fat loss that measuring the waist?

I feel fantastic too.

So as people think atkins type diet is not for weight lifters I am not sure but I do think there is a way of doing it (replacing glycogen stores) following a workout and this might be better than the carbup days.

I have not put it to the test as I have to go buy some stuff but I do have something I am thinking about.

Actually some protein does get converted into blood sugars. I have the numbers and will post them later (I have to find them)  .


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## DB (Oct 31, 2003)

gotta be almost pic time hacks?


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## big (Sep 14, 2004)

hackskii said:


> I up the carbs some but still no cardio and now I am 11 lbs lighter today.
> 
> What I think is nice last time I dieted I lost 1" for every 5 lbs of weight.
> 
> ...


Nice going dude. But how is your strength holding up?


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

big said:


> Nice going dude. But how is your strength holding up?


Not bad, last week I hit another personal best in dead lifts.

I pretty much just started them though about 4-5 months ago so I must proably am getting stronger as I have not hit a plateau yet.

Other than that I was a tad bit sick and still am, kindof run down some.

Now If I was drinking and smoking I would be full blown sick right now but it is kindof lingering.

I felt too achy yesterday to do shoulders so I just kindof got a little pump.

Today is Friday and I have arms but I do want to go out tonight bad.

Although I dont want to run myself down any more, I love Fridays.

Cheat day and this is the only day I get out without feeling guilt for doing that.

But all in all, lost some strength in upper body but none really in legs.

Now if I only had some cash for some HGH, oh man, that would be nice right about now.

Positive nitrogen ballance during a high protein diet

Oh and not to mention excellerated fat loss with that:smoke:

Ah well, best I kept my money in my pocket anyway.

I am still losing nicely and I cant have any probs with that.

Why mess with success anyway?

It is going good right now.

Picks will be in another 10-15 lbs, DB, maybe if I get the right lighting and a good photo editing program I will get them sooner....haaaa haaaa:eek:


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## Tatyana (Jan 29, 2006)

hackskii said:


> I up the carbs some but still no cardio and now I am 11 lbs lighter today.
> 
> What I think is nice last time I dieted I lost 1" for every 5 lbs of weight.
> 
> ...


Hackskii man,

our bodies can turn bloody anything into sugars, glucose is the only thing our brains will 'eat'. our bodies can also turn any of the macronutrients, in excess, into fat! The easiest one to turn to fat is fat, and as the Atkins diet calls for high levels of fat!

IMO taking out an entire food group is not the way to go, I do think if you need a kick up (big fat ) butt, then yes have a go at the Atkins diet.

Is this keto diet the kind of thing you can maintain for life? IMO it is more important to learn how to eat 'clean' and healthy in a way that you can have a lean, mean, eating machine (that's me) for life. I can eat up to 3000 kcals day and not get fat! It is just the foods I eat and when I eat some of them. So who do you think is having more fun on their diet now?

And I am NOT constipated with smelly keto breath! mg:

Did I tell you that I am a biomedical scientist in BIOCHEMISTRY! So I know the glycolysis/gluconeogenesis thing like the back of my hand big buddy!

I just look like a bit of a dumb blonde, I quite like the contrast, keeps you lads on your toes. As Tiny Tom said, don't be fooled by the bikini!


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Tatyana said:


> The easiest one to turn to fat is fat, and as the Atkins diet calls for high levels of fat!


Actually this statement is not true. It is far easier to turn carbohydrates into that then fat into fat. Reason being is two fold.

First you can only store about 400 grams of glycogen in the muscles and about 70 grams of glycogen in the liver.

ANY excess and it is stored as fat. Now granted weightlifters and people that exercise will have depletion of glycogen stores and less apt to store but ANY excess is again stored as fat

Secondly, spiking blood sugars regardless of how much as said above has an effect on insulin; insulin is a transport/storage hormone. Spiking insulin can cause blood sugars to be stored as fat.

Fat has little or almost no response on insulin so the mechanism of storage is shut down. Now I am not saying eat a pound of fat and lose weight but there are fats like Omega 3's that actually can ramp up fat loss.

So using the wide brush of fat as claimed above is not actually wrong but adding Omega 3s to ones diet can promote fat loss.

Dietary Fat Does Not Make You Fat!

The solution to this apparent riddle might surprise you, but the explanation is simple. Eating fat in the proper amounts does not make you fat. I will take this one step farther. Eating fat does not make you fat. This sounds like nutritional heresy, but there's scientific proof. In the 1950's, Kekwick and Pawan at the University of London in England published a landmark study. They put patients on a diet that was low in calories (1000) but high in fat. In fact, fat supplied 90 percent of the total calories. What happened? Those patients lost significant amounts of weight. When the same patients were put on a high-carbohydrate diet (90% of the calories form carbs) with the same number of calories, there was virtually no weight loss.

So your above statement is not true.



Tatyana said:


> glucose is the only thing our brains will 'eat'.


Actually this statement is incorrect too.

The body can use ketones for fuel for the brain but glucose is the preferred fuel.

People that used to suffer from epilepsy used to be put on a ketogenic diet to control seizures and 100 years ago when meds were not available to stop the seizures this was the only method of surviving a normal life with epilepsy.

They did studies on this and the people lived normal healthy lives and one of the side effects from this diet for epilepsy was fat loss.

So again, I am correcting your statement as it actually is not correct.



Tatyana said:


> Is this keto diet the kind of thing you can maintain for life? IMO it is more important to learn how to eat 'clean' and healthy in a way that you can have a lean, mean, eating machine (that's me) for life.


I never said I was doing this for life number one, I said I was on a diet.

Diets are one of my passions and I follow this pretty deep.

I have used the Zone 40/30/30 diet with good success.

I have used the Atkins diet with good success.

I am kindof testing the difference as when I was doing zone type dieting I lost 1" around my waist for every 5 lbs of weight.

I am actually exceeding that right now, so I can't say either one is better nor worse than the other.

I am 46 years old and have been reading, studying, and actively participating in diets for over 20 years. This is nothing new to me and I have as much knowledge or more than most people I know.

Eating clean? I am very aware of eating clean and which nutrients come from which foods. It is all about balance.

This is something I am just doing for right now.



Tatyana said:


> Did I tell you that I am a biomedical scientist in BIOCHEMISTRY! So I know the glycolysis/gluconeogenesis thing like the back of my hand big buddy!


Good for you babe, glad I can have someone to have a deep conversation with.

Now if you don't mind I will give you a little lesson. 

Ready?

Let's go!

*Fat burning*

Lets look at some research that supports the fat burning theory, this time from the Oakland Navel Hospital. Impressed with the Kekwick and Pawan success, Frederick Beoit and his associates decided to compare a 1000 calorie, 10-grams-of-carbohydrate, high-fat diet with fasting. Using seven men weighing between 230 and 290 pounds. They used state of the art body composition technology. After ten days, the fasting subjects lost 21 pounds on average, but most of that was lean body weight; only 7.5 pounds was body fat. However on the controlled carbohydrate regimen over the same period of time, 10 of the 14.5 pounds lost was body fat. Think of it. By eating foods low in carbohydrate and high in dietary fat, subjects burned their fat stores almost twice as fast as when they ate nothing at all!

Benoit's other exciting discovery was that on a fat burning regimen, subjects maintained their potassium levels, while subjects who fasted experienced major potassium losses. (potassium depletion can cause heart arrhythmia, which in severe cases, can be fatal.)

*Still not convinced?*

Try this one. Charlotte Young, professor of clinical nutrition at Cornell University, compared the results of overweight young men placed on three diets, all providing 1800 calories, but with varying degrees of carbohydrate restriction. The regimens contained 30, 60, and 104 grams of carbohydrate, and subjects followed them for nine weeks. Young and her colleagues calculated body fat through a widely accepted technique involving immersion underwater.

Those on the 104 grams of carbs lost slightly better than 2 pounds of fat per week out of 2.73 pounds of total weight loss-not bad for 1800 calories.

Those on 60 grams of carbs lost nearly 2.5 pounds of fat per week out of 3 pounds of actual weight loss-better.

But those on 30 grams of carbs, the only situation that produced lipolysis and the secondary process of ketosis lost 3.73 pounds of fat per week approximately one hundred percent of their total weight loss.

Several other studies have shown that you can consume more calories and lose more weight than on low fat programs.

One study done in Glasgow described overweight women who after three months had lost 14.5 pounds on a thirty-five-percent carbohydrate diet of 1200 calories and 12.3 pounds on a fifty-eight percent carbohydrate diet of 1200 calories. That's fairly slow weight loss and pretty strict caloric deprivation. The advantage went to the lower-carbohydrate diet as always, but the lesson is that stricter carbohydrate control makes for an even more successful weight loss plan.

Two facts should be noted: first, in all cases, the lower carbohydrate group did lose more weight than the higher-carbohydrate group. Second, in two of the studies cardiovascular risk factors improved significantly but only in the subjects who were on a lower carbohydrate intake. The folks who got put on a high-carbohydrate diet showed no significant improvements in these health indicatiors.

That leaves one last study, which was really a blowout. Published in the Journal of Adolescent Health in 2000, it reported on a group of obese adolescents put on a controlled carbohydrate diet with no restriction on calories for three months and meticulously monitored throughout that period. By design the regimen was based on the Atkins approach. The group was compared with a control group put on a low fat diet.

The results? Well, naturally the adolescents lost significantly more weight on the controlled carbohydrate diet than on the low fat diet. The written records indicated that at the end of the trial the adolescents in the controlled carbohydrate group had averaged 1830 calories daily, while the adolescents in the low fat group had consumed 1100 calories. The controlled carbohydrate group averaged 21.7 pounds lost, compared to 9.1 pounds for the low-fat group, and a significant improvement in body mass index (BMI), compared with the low-fat dieters.

As studies like this become increasingly common, opposition to a controlled carbohydrate nutritional approach should fall away even more quickly than has already been the case in recent years.

*Another study:*

Published in the Journal of Adolescent Health in 2000, it reported on a group of obese adolescents put on a controlled carbohydrate diet with no restriction on calories for three months and meticulously monitored throughout that period. By design the regimen was based on the Atkins approach. The group was compared with a control group put on a low fat diet.

The results? Well, naturally the adolescents lost significantly more weight on the controlled carbohydrate diet than on the low fat diet. The written records indicated that at the end of the trial the adolescents in the controlled carbohydrate group had averaged 1830 calories daily, while the adolescents in the low fat group had consumed 1100 calories. The controlled carbohydrate group averaged 21.7 pounds lost, compared to 9.1 pounds for the low-fat group, and a significant improvement in body mass index (BMI), compared with the low-fat dieters.

*Another study:*

One study done in Glasgow described overweight women who after three months had lost 14.5 pounds on a thirty-five-percent carbohydrate diet of 1200 calories and 12.3 pounds on a fifty-eight percent carbohydrate diet of 1200 calories. That's fairly slow weight loss and pretty strict caloric deprivation. The advantage went to the lower-carbohydrate diet as always, but the lesson is that stricter carbohydrate control makes for an even more successful weight loss plan.

Two facts should be noted: first, in all cases, the lower carbohydrate group did lose more weight than the higher-carbohydrate group. Second, in two of the studies cardiovascular risk factors improved significantly but only in the subjects who were on a lower carbohydrate intake. The folks who got put on a high-carbohydrate diet showed no significant improvements in these health indicators.

*Still not convinced? *

Try this one. Charlotte Young, professor of clinical nutrition at Cornell University, compared the results of overweight young men placed on three diets, all providing 1800 calories, but with varying degrees of carbohydrate restriction. The regimens contained 30, 60, and 104 grams of carbohydrate, and subjects followed them for nine weeks. Young and her colleagues calculated body fat through a widely accepted technique involving immersion underwater.

Those on the 104 grams of carbs lost slightly better than 2 pounds of fat per week out of 2.73 pounds of total weight loss-not bad for 1800 calories.

Those on 60 grams of carbs lost nearly 2.5 pounds of fat per week out of 3 pounds of actual weight loss-better.

But those on 30 grams of carbs, the only situation that produced lipolysis and the secondary process of ketosis lost 3.73 pounds of fat per week approximately one hundred percent of their total weight loss.

*I wanted to wait till the end to type the problems that I have with fats in the diet compared to carbohydrates I have in the body.*

1. Animal fats I feel might not be good because toxins and chemicals are stored in the fats of animals. So by eating the fat from animals you are ingesting the same toxins as the animal that had them.

2. With lowering the consumption of carbs in the diet and replacing them with fats you hav a nutritional void in the vitamins and minerals in the body.

3. This is something that most people have never heard of and this is something called Acid ashing and alkaline ashing. Proteins tend to lower PH (more acidic) and depending on the carbs can raise PH (alkaline). The body is healthier in the alkaline state and many sick people are on the acidic side. A simple test can pe PH or litmus paper. Used first **** in the morning will tell you where you stand ph wise. You can also test you ph using saliva. Between the two can tell you pretty much where you stand.

Fats are neutral on the acid or alkaline.

In carbohydrates especially vegetables where minerals are present the body can change its ph through food selections. This can be beneficial for people who get sick a lot.

If you want to find more about acid ashing and alkaline ashing then you can do a search on the internet. This is kind of out of the box as well as traditional nutrition. I wont tell you what it is but it is informative reading.

Lastly, saturated fats and alcohol can cause deficiencies in GLA.


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## Felicite (Feb 6, 2006)

I am so glad fats are in vogue now!!!

I love butter!


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## Peg (Feb 9, 2006)

My two cents if I may:

A wise nutritionist once told me the following:

The human body is a complex profound brilliant example of design.

Everything about it is interrelated. To take one aspect of the biochemistry and say do this and another aspect and say do that, both are correct so far as each aspect is concerned, but they do not speak to the whole.

I can say take 3000mg of vitamin C for your cold and you will get better, but if you do not have the other macro and micronutrients needed along side the vitamin C then the C will do its part as best it can with the lacking of the other nutrients needed, but the body will not be able to do anything more than what it is given to combat the cold.

Each diet will take a part of the biochemistry and make it the cureall for fat loss and make huge profits off of it. People will swear by it because it works for them...

But I will say this, the better way is to take the whole spectrum of biochemistry into account, listen to your own body and its own particular needs, and change the lifestyle to meet those needs. You are what you feed yourself.

The bottom line is that the body needs certain nutrients to function properly in a certain quantity and quality. If we do not supply the body with those nutrients then we are affecting the delicate balance of its biochemistry.

It is an awesome machine and adapts and survives. When we understand this process of adaptation and survival, fat loss is a simple thing, building muscle mass is a simple thing...

I think our delimma is that we want to manipulate it to be faster. It took 5 years to put it on but I want it off in 2 months.

Not to say we can't take it off faster and not to say that the body is hurt if we do take it off faster. I am just speaking about the mind set towards dieting here.

The body adapts to what we do to it. That is why it is such a profound design. The question becomes for the one adaptation we are looking for quickly will it cause a depletion or lack in another area of the design to compensate for our quick fixes....

Science tells me yes, if the whole of the nutritional needs are not met or we add or compound those that are.

I've been on the diet yo you for a long time all with some degree of success but never kept the weight off until I changed the way I looked at weight loss and instead of focusing on just one part of the biochemistry I set out to discover the beauty and glory of the design and learn to respect it and listen to it instead of trying to get it to listen to me. It's paid off big time both physically and mentally.


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## Tatyana (Jan 29, 2006)

Felicite said:


> I am so glad fats are in vogue now!!!
> 
> I love butter!


Scott does know his stuff and his correction on brain eating ketones is correct, my bad, however, you really do not want to be getting to the starvation state where the brain has to eat ketones, you will feel as sick as a D.O.G.

I skimmed a lot of the studies, will read them in a bit, however, I said the Atkins diet is not my fav for this reason, NOT ALL FATS ARE CREATED EQUAL!

Omega-3s are good, (and there is some debate about 6 interferring with the use of omega-9) however, butter in excess is not all that great!

In a macrobiotic diet, small amounts of butter are used, in the spring to help cleanse the liver.

Butter is not one of the fats to focus on, fats that are liquid at room temperature are preferred!


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## Tatyana (Jan 29, 2006)

Scott,

I would like to see the full papers please that you have reference, send me the abstracts or copies as there are a number of issues I think need to be addresses.

Firstly, in a number of 'physiological studies' in which people are used for diet and exercise, the sample sizes are quite small, often around 10, and for science to be statistically robust, sample sizes of 30 are required! It is a BIG problem because scientific funding is often limited, especially in the areas of nutrition.

Large populations samples are required as there is also a HUGE issue with participant compliance, people may be paid to participate in studies, and as we all know, people lie about their diets, how much they are eating.................................

I also need to figure out how you do that quote thing..

In the Benoit study, I would call this an absolutely B*llux study, comparing fasting and high fat!!!!!! Of course the people who actually bloody ate were going to fare better! DOH! I think that there would be BIG issues with compliance unless all the participants were kept in the lab, and how long did they make these poor buggers fast for? I really want to see the method on this one (and the ethics approval as well!). It is well established that fasting is the same as starvation, and starvations makes the body go into fat storage mode.

Charlotte Young, well again a really mean diet, so calorie restrictive, YUCK.

AGain how many participants, and the difference in the weight loss, comparing 2.73 lbs to 3.73 lbs or even if it is in Kg, that is only a 1-2 lb difference, not really significant. That difference could easily be accounted for in normal physiological variation, or ONE BIG DUMP! LOL

Also the Charlotte Young obese woman study, the weight difference of 12.31-14.51 lbs, again not a huge difference. 2 pounds or 1 kg. One litre of water weighs 1 kg, and in all honesty, I have seen my weight jump up and down by 1-2 kg from one day to the next.

There is so much BAD SCIENCE out there that is being published (old boy's network, sponserd by big business, drug companies), one of the major things that we are taught in science is how to read a bloody paper, scientific literacy, which is very similar to media literacy. Just because it is print does not make it valid. We rip the s*it out of papers almost every week in my masters, dodgy statistics, bad control groups, not large enough sample sizes.

Man just look what bloody Andrew Wakefield did with his autism/MMR jab study of 12 kids! He also had conflicting interests as he was a part of the group that was trying to sue the manufacturer of the immunisation. It has now taken untold amounts of money to perform HUGE population studies all over the world to demonstrate that his paper was basically BAD SCIENCE and should have NEVER BEEN PUBLISHED.

THe untold amount of damage to his paper is still to be seen as one of the only known causes of autism in intrauterine assault (damage to the baby while in mom's tum) if she has a rubella infection!!!!!! And MMR stands for measles, mumps and rubella! People forget in this day and age just how hideous, dangereous and lethal these childhood infections can be because immunisations has been so successful.

Don't get me wrong, I do think that it is a bit unnatural for the immune system to encounter so many infectious diseases at once, rubella is not really needed until pre-adolescense, and there are issues with some of the substances that the tenuated viruses are suspended in, but for the better part of an entire generation of children to unprotected from these diseases!

I am not opposed to low carb diets, in fact I use carb cycling, which means I do have some low carb days in my competition diet, I also use carb tapering.

The insulin thing you have spoken of is important, yes, however, NOT ALL CARBOHYDRATES ARE EQUAL EITHER! Complex carbohydrates in combination with protein do not create the severe insulin spike that you speak of!

Eat some brown rice man!!!!

Yah know I love yah you fat middle aged fc-uker :blowme:  (just so wanted to use that smilie) LOL

So let the debate continue!

Respect

Big Love

T

x

x

x


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Tatyana said:


> fats that are liquid at room temperature are preferred!


*Ok, first off this statement is not true.*

Sorry for correcting you again, there are many oils like this that should be limited or even not consumed.

For several reasons one of which the ratio of Omega 3 to Omega 6 fatty acids should be 1/1 to 1/4 the typical American diet is 1/10 to 1/25, this ratio is not healthy and adding these room temp oils like vegetable oils will only further kick out the ratio even farther (adding too much Omega 6).

This actually can cause inflammation by promoting prostaglandin 2 (PG2) production, this is an inflammation prostaglandin.

Omega 3's like the ones in fish oils promote the production of prostaglandin 1 and prostaglandin 3 or (PG1) and (PG3)

These are anti-inflammatory prostaglandins and with the right levels of Omega 3 to Omega 6 ratio these anti-inflammatory prostaglandins will aid in everything from immune system building, to helping Alzheimer's to fat loss.

This is very important and I feel this has more impact on congestive heart failure than saturated fats.

*Let's look for a second at some of these room temp oils shall we?*

Safflower, Corn, Sunflower, Soybean and Cottonseed Oils all contain over 50% omega-6 and, except for soybean oil, only minimal amounts of omega-3. Safflower oil contains almost 80% omega-6. Researchers are just beginning to discover the dangers of excess omega-6 oils in the diet, whether rancid or not. Use of these oils should be strictly limited. They should never be consumed after they have been heated, as in cooking, frying or baking. High oleic safflower and sunflower oils, produced from hybrid plants, have a composition similar to olive oil, namely, high amounts of oleic acid and only small amounts of polyunsaturated fatty acids and, thus, are more stable than traditional varieties. However, it is difficult to find truly cold-pressed versions of these oils.

Cooking with these oils creates Trans fats and these oils should never be cooked with.



Tatyana said:


> Butter is not one of the fats to focus on


Ok, let's just look at butter for a minute here.

*Why Butter Is Better*

*
by Sally Fallon and Mary G. Enig, PhD *

When the fabricated food folks and apologists for the corporate farm realized that they couldn't block America's growing interest in diet and nutrition, a movement that would ultimately put an end to America's biggest and most monopolistic industries, they infiltrated the movement and put a few sinister twists on information going out to the public. Item number one in the disinformation campaign was the assertion that naturally saturated fats from animal sources are the root cause of the current heart disease and cancer plague. Butter bore the brunt of the attack, and was accused of terrible crimes. The Diet Dictocrats told us that it was better to switch to polyunsaturated margarine and most Americans did. Butter all but disappeared from our tables, shunned as a miscreant.

This would come as a surprise to many people around the globe who have valued butter for its life-sustaining properties for millennia. When Dr. Weston Price studied native diets in the 1930's he found that butter was a staple in the diets of many supremely healthy peoples.1 Isolated Swiss villagers placed a bowl of butter on their church altars, set a wick in it, and let it burn throughout the year as a sign of divinity in the butter. Arab groups also put a high value on butter, especially deep yellow-orange butter from livestock feeding on green grass in the spring and fall. American folk wisdom recognized that children raised on butter were robust and sturdy; but that children given skim milk during their growing years were pale and thin, with "pinched" faces.2

Does butter cause disease? On the contrary, butter protects us against many diseases.

Butter & Heart Disease

Heart disease was rare in America at the turn of the century. Between 1920 and 1960, the incidence of heart disease rose precipitously to become America's number one killer. During the same period butter consumption plummeted from eighteen pounds per person per year to four. It doesn't take a Ph.D. in statistics to conclude that butter is not a cause. Actually butter contains many nutrients that protect us from heart disease. First among these is vitamin A which is needed for the health of the thyroid and adrenal glands, both of which play a role in maintaining the proper functioning of the heart and cardiovascular system. Abnormalities of the heart and larger blood vessels occur in babies born to vitamin A deficient mothers. Butter is America's best and most easily absorbed source of vitamin A.

Butter contains lecithin, a substance that assists in the proper assimilation and metabolism of cholesterol and other fat constituents.

Butter also contains a number of anti-oxidants that protect against the kind of free radical damage that weakens the arteries. Vitamin A and vitamin E found in butter both play a strong anti-oxidant role. Butter is a very rich source of selenium, a vital anti-oxidant-containing more per gram than herring or wheat germ.

Butter is also a good dietary source cholesterol. What?? Cholesterol an anti-oxidant?? Yes indeed, cholesterol is a potent anti-oxidant that is flooded into the blood when we take in too many harmful free-radicals-usually from damaged and rancid fats in margarine and highly processed vegetable oils.3 A Medical Research Council survey showed that men eating butter ran half the risk of developing heart disease as those using margarine.4

Butter & Cancer

In the 1940's research indicated that increased fat intake caused cancer.5 The abandonment of butter accelerated; margarine-formerly a poor man's food- was accepted by the well-to-do. But there was a small problem with the way this research was presented to the public. The popular press neglected to stress that fact that the "saturated" fats used in these experiments were not naturally saturated fats but partially hydrogenated or hardened fats-the kind found mostly in margarine but not in butter. Researchers stated-they may have even believed it-that there was no difference between naturally saturated fats in butter and artificially hardened fats in margarine and shortening. So butter was tarred with the black brush of the fabricated fats, and in such a way that the villains got passed off as heroes.

Actually many of the saturated fats in butter have strong anti-cancer properties. Butter is rich in short and medium chain fatty acid chains that have strong anti-tumor effects.6 Butter also contains conjugated linoleic acid which gives excellent protection against cancer.7

Vitamin A and the anti-oxidants in butter-vitamin E, selenium and cholesterol-protect against cancer as well as heart disease.

Butter & the Immune System

Vitamin A found in butter is essential to a healthy immune system; short and medium chain fatty acids also have immune system strengthening properties. But hydrogenated fats and an excess of long chain fatty acids found in polyunsaturated oils and many butter substitutes both have a deleterious effect on the immune system.8

Butter & Arthritis

The Wulzen or "anti-stiffness" factor is a nutrient unique to butter. Dutch researcher Wulzen found that it protects against calcification of the joints-degenerative arthritis-as well as hardening of the arteries, cataracts and calcification of the pineal gland.9 Unfortunately this vital substance is destroyed during pasteurization. Calves fed pasteurized milk or skim milk develop joint stiffness and do not thrive. Their symptoms are reversed when raw butterfat is added to the diet.

Butter & Osteoporosis

Vitamins A and D in butter are essential to the proper absorption of calcium and hence necessary for strong bones and teeth. The plague of osteoporosis in milk-drinking western nations may be due to the fact that most people choose skim milk over whole, thinking it is good for them. Butter also has anti-cariogenic effects, that is, it protects against tooth decay.10

Butter & the Thyroid Gland

Butter is a good source of iodine, in highly absorbable form. Butter consumption prevents goiter in mountainous areas where seafood is not available. In addition, vitamin A in butter is essential for proper functioning of the thyroid gland.11

Butter & Gastrointestinal Health

Butterfat contains glycospingolipids, a special category of fatty acids that protect against gastro-intestinal infection, especially in the very young and the elderly. For this reason, children who drink skim milk have diarrhea at rates three to five times greater than children who drink whole milk.12 Cholesterol in butterfat promotes health of the intestinal wall and protects against cancer of the colon.13 Short and medium chain fatty acids protect against pathogens and have strong anti-fungal effects.14 Butter thus has an important role to play in the treatment of candida overgrowth.

Butter & Weight Gain

The notion that butter causes weight gain is a sad misconception. The short and medium chain fatty acids in butter are not stored in the adipose tissue, but are used for quick energy. Fat tissue in humans is composed mainly of longer chain fatty acids.15 These come from olive oil and polyunsaturated oils as well as from refined carbohydrates. Because butter is rich in nutrients, it confers a feeling of satisfaction when consumed. Can it be that consumption of margarine and other butter substitutes results in cravings and bingeing because these highly fabricated products don't give the body what it needs?.

Butter for Growth & Development

Many factors in butter ensure optimal growth of children. Chief among them is vitamin A. Individuals who have been deprived of sufficient vitamin A during gestation tend to have narrow faces and skeletal structure, small palates and crowded teeth.16 Extreme vitamin A deprivation results in blindness, skeletal problems and other birth defects.17 Individuals receiving optimal vitamin A from the time of conception have broad handsome faces, strong straight teeth, and excellent bone structure. Vitamin A also plays an important role in the development of the sex characteristics. Calves fed butter substitutes sicken and die before reaching maturity.18

The X factor, discovered by Dr. Weston Price, is also essential for optimum growth. It is only present in butterfat from cows on green pasture.19 Cholesterol found in butterfat plays an important role in the development of the brain and nervous system.20 Mother's milk is high in cholesterol and contains over 50 percent of its calories as butterfat. Low fat diets have been linked to failure to thrive in children21-yet low-fat diets are often recommended for youngsters! Children need the many factors in butter and other animal fats for optimal development.

Beyond Margarine

It's no longer a secret that the margarine Americans have been spreading on their toast, and the hydrogenated fats they eat in commercial baked goods like cookies and crackers, is the chief culprit in our current plague of cancer and heart disease.22 But mainline nutrition writers continue to denigrate butter-recommending new fangled tub spreads instead.23 These may not contain hydrogenated fats but they are composed of highly processed rancid vegetable oils, soy protein isolate and a host of additives. A glitzy cookbook called Butter Busters promotes butter buds, made from maltodextrin, a carbohydrate derived from corn, along with dozens of other highly processed so-called low-fat commercial products.

Who benefits from the propaganda blitz against butter? The list is a long one and includes orthodox medicine, hospitals, the drug companies and food processors. But the chief beneficiary is the large corporate farm and the cartels that buy their products-chiefly cotton, corn and soy-America's three main crops, which are usually grown as monocultures on large farms, requiring extensive use of artificial fertilizers and pesticides. All three-soy, cotton and corn-can be used to make both margarine and the new designer spreads. In order to make these products acceptable to the up-scale consumer, food processors and agribusiness see to it that they are promoted as health foods. We are fools to believe them.

Butter & the Family Farm

A nation that consumes butterfat, on the other hand, is a nation that sustains the family farm. If Americans were willing to pay a good price for high quality butter and cream, from cows raised on natural pasturage-every owner of a small- or medium-sized farm could derive financial benefits from owning a few Jersey or Guernsey cows. In order to give them green pasture, he would naturally need to rotate crops, leaving different sections of his farm for his cows to graze and at the same time giving the earth the benefit of a period of fallow-not to mention the benefit of high quality manure. Fields tended in this way produce very high quality vegetables and grains in subsequent seasons, without the addition of nitrogen fertilizers and with minimal use of pesticides. Chickens running around his barnyard, and feeding off bugs that gather under cowpaddies, would produce eggs with superb nutritional qualities-absolutely bursting with vitamin A and highly beneficial fatty acids.

If you wish to reestablish America as a nation of prosperous farmers in the best Jeffersonian tradition, buy organic butter, cream, whole milk, whole yoghurt, and barn-free eggs. These bring good and fair profits to the yeoman producer without concentrating power in the hands of conglomerates.

Ethnic groups that do not use butter obtain the same nutrients from things like insects, organ meats, fish eggs and the fat of marine animals, food items most of us find repulsive. For Americans-who do not eat bugs or blubber-butter is not just better, it is essential.

Notes

1. Price, Weston, DDS Nutrition and Physical Degeneration, 1945, Price Pottenger Nutrition Foundation, Inc., La Mesa, California

2. Representative of American folk traditions about butterfat is this passage from "Neighbor Rosicky", by American author Willa Cather: [The Rosickys] had been at one accord not to hurry through life, not to be always skimping and saving. They saw their neighbours buy more land and feed more stock than they did, without discontent. Once when the creamery agent came to the Rosickys to persuade them to sell him their cream, he told then how much the Fasslers, their nearest neighbours, had made on their cream last year. "Yes," said Mary, "and look at them Fassler children! Pale, pinched little things, they look like skimmed milk. I'd rather put some colour into my children's faces than put money into the bank."

3. Cranton, EM, MD and JP Frackelton, MD, Journal of Holistic Medicine, Spring/Summer 1984

4. Nutrition Week Mar 22, 1991 21:12:2-3

5. Enig, Mary G, PhD, Nutrition Quarterly, 1993 Vol 17, No 4

6. Cohen, L A et al, J Natl Cancer Inst 1986 77:43

7. Belury, MA Nutrition Reviews, April 1995 534) 83-89

8. Cohen, op cit

9. American Journal of Physical Medicine, 1941, 133; Physiological Zoology, 1935 8:457

10. Kabara, J J, The Pharmacological Effects of Lipids, J J Kabara, ed, The American Oil Chemists Society, Champaign, IL 1978 pp 1-14

11. Jennings, IW Vitamins in Endocrine Metabolism, Charles C. Thomas Publisher, Springfield, Ill, pp 41-57

12. Koopman, JS, et al American Journal of Public Health 1984 74(12):1371-1373

13. Addis, Paul, Food and Nutrition News, March/April 1990 62:2:7-10

14. Prasad, KN, Life Science, 1980, 27:1351-8; Gershon, Herman and Larry Shanks, Symposium on the Pharmacological Effect of Lipids, Jon J Kabara Ed, American Oil Chemists Society, Champaign, Illinois 1978 51-62

15. Levels of linoleic acid in adipose tissues reflect the amount of linoleic acid in the diet. Valero, et al Annals of Nutritional Metabolism, Nov/Dec 1990 34:6:323-327; Felton, CV et al, Lancet 1994 344:1195-96

16. Price, op cit

17. Jennings, op cit

18. DeCava, Judith Journal of the National Academy of Research Biochemists, September 1988 1053-1059

19. Price, op cit

20. Alfin-Slater, R B and L Aftergood, "Lipids", Modern Nutrition in Health and Disease, Chapter 5, 6th ed, R S Goodhart and M E Shils, eds, Lea and Febiger, Philadelphia 1980, p 131

21. Smith, MM, MNS RD and F Lif****z, MD Pediatrics, Mar 1994 93:3:438-443

22. Enig, op cit

23. "Diet Roulette", The New York Times, May 20, 1994.

© 1999 Sally Fallon and Mary G. Enig, PhD. All Rights Reserved.

"Why Butter is Better" first appeared in Health Freedom News

Now, I will post 10 articles to your 1 that suggest fats should not be eliminated, nor even reduced in the diet.

I am suggesting that carbohydrates be reduced.

High carbohydrate and high fat diets are very unhealthy due to the presence of added fat and fat being stored as triglycerides form high insulin levels.

This is a recipe for disaster. If you want me to explain why I will but that is not the current debate. Maybe I should fire up a fresh thread so each can read for him/her selves and draw your/their own conclusions.

I am warning you right now that there are so many pages nobody will read them.

I have stored them on another site when a similar topic came up.

Needless to say I had so much information nobody read it.

*I will follow up the next post later.*


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## Felicite (Feb 6, 2006)

That was an awesome post about butter. I've seen that page online.

Thanks for sharing it.

My mom told me that nature was much better at giving us the foods we need than anything man can produce.

What are your thoughts on the 5aday plan?

I've always watched what fruits were in season and which were not and would eat those in season... do you think that nature planned it that way for a reason?


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

DB said:


> gotta be almost pic time hacks?


No big pics? Emphasis on lower case ------>b<--------lol:smoke:


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Tatyana said:


> Complex carbohydrates in combination with protein do not create the severe insulin spike that you speak of!


This is not correct either.

Whey actually does spike insulin and for your information some complex carbohydrates do in fact spike insulin. You can not paint with a wide brush on this.

The term "simple" and "complex" actually refer purely to the chemical structure of a carbohydrate and have nothing to do with how fast they turn into blood glucose in the body.

Many so-called complex carbs turn into blood sugar faster than table sugar.

Proteins?

Eggs are slow and whey is fast in terms of spiking blood sugars.

Again, adding a fat to the carbohydrate or even fiber for that matter slows digestion much more than protein every will.

Not only that protein is the least favorite fuel for the body to use and fats are actually the most efficient fuel the body can use.

For the rest of your article I need not debate on because I can't and neither did you.

You made no argument except try to water my post down.

Hey it is cool so I will leave you with more to chew on.

Again, I have nothing against carbs but this is a debate on fats so here we switch gears some.


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## Felicite (Feb 6, 2006)

hackskii said:


> This is not correct either.
> 
> Whey actually does spike insulin and for your information some complex carbohydrates do in fact spike insulin.
> 
> ...


I do think it would be a better thing to start to label carbohydrates as either fast or slow instead of complex or simple.

and relate them to the II and GI.

Can we move all the debate posts to a new thread in diet and nutrition for beginners...

They need this information all in one place.

It would be a great help, please.

thank you


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

That's probably a good idea. Felicite, you have 24 posts and 3 green bars, impressive.


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## Felicite (Feb 6, 2006)

thanx, winger!

how is the diet going hackskii?


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

Bump for Hackskii's diet.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

I have been a bit sick and I dont think I have been eating enough.

Im down to 193 that is 12 lbs in 35 days.

I am losing too fast now.

I need to eat more and add some more carbs.

I am afraid of losing muscle.

Plus I have been sick and hardly ate today

Not too hungry and slept alot.


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## peachy (Mar 20, 2005)

hackskii said:


> I have been a bit sick and I dont think I have been eating enough.
> 
> Im down to 193 that is 12 lbs in 35 days.
> 
> ...


ah dude hope you get better soon and dont lose to much bulk :boohoo:


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

Get well soon Scottie!


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Dropped some more this morning.

Now I feel it is hitting muscle.

I just didnt feel like eating yesterday, not hungery either.

192 this morning. Dammit, Im taking in carbs today

Should have had some gear in this mix to maintain lean tissue, oh well.


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

You dont look like you lost muscle bro!


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## Tatyana (Jan 29, 2006)

Ok big guy finally back to you on this, I must confess haven't read it all!

What do you think about this combo of fats:

EPA= 216 mg

DHA= 1350 mg

GLA =360 mg

ALA + C18:4 = 324 mg

LA = 1083 mg

Plant sterols = 2028 mg

Take approximately that amount per day plus some olive oil, toasted seasame oil, walnut oil or Udos, about 25 ml in total

Plus whatever fat is in soya milk and yogurt, tofu and cocoa!

Oh yah, and about 6 mg of CLA every day to, in 3 servings

This has been part of my BB diet for DONKS


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## Tatyana (Jan 29, 2006)

Oh yes and before you get all smarty pants on me again

CLA is cis-9, trans-11 and trans-10, cis-12 isomers

:withstupi


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## peachy (Mar 20, 2005)

beauty and brains............what more could a man possibly want?


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## Tatyana (Jan 29, 2006)

peachy said:


> beauty and brains............what more could a man possibly want?


A lager?


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## peachy (Mar 20, 2005)

Tatyana said:


> A lager?


lol yep,all a man needs is beer,a beautiful and intelligent girl that turns out to be the most filthy animlal on the planet........mmmmm......that would make me happy! :tongue10:


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

peachy said:


> beauty and brains............what more could a man possibly want?


Two with beauty and brains? Isn't that most mens fantasies?


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## peachy (Mar 20, 2005)

winger said:


> Two with beauty and brains? Isn't that most mens fantasies?


oooohhhh..........yea dude 

iv'e always fancied sleeping with a mum and daughter,i'm 26 so maybe the mum being late 30's and the daughter 17/18 oooohhhh yea that would be awesome! :eyebrows:


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## Keyser Soze (Dec 12, 2005)

peachy said:


> oooohhhh..........yea dude
> 
> iv'e always fancied sleeping with a mum and daughter,i'm 26 so maybe the mum being late 30's and the daughter 17/18 oooohhhh yea that would be awesome! :eyebrows:


Dude...you have to wonder what kind of mother and daughter would have sex with the same guy at the same time!!

Yes, I know, the freaky kinky "up for it" types.....(sighs and wishes he knew any girls like that)



KS


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

Well your not going to marry them so geterdone. 

This thread has been off topic so long that if we brought it back on topic it would be a hijack............lol


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

I have been in Palm Springs visiting my daughter.

Man is it pretty here.

Spent way too much here this weekend, from gambling, buying supps, buying my daughter toys, dinner, boarding my dog, traveling expenses, beer:eek:

In my less than sober state my daughter was pumping the icecream down me, I could not stop. Oh man, I even feel fatter today

I was doing sooooo good too

Lets just call that a cheat weekend

Man did I spend some cash.

CLA is actually a very good fat and it resides in the fat of cheese, and beef fat. Problem is the cows are not free range so the percentage of this fat is very low in diets.

This fat is an antioxidant fat and has fat burning properties in this fat, anticancer, helps with high blood pressure, insulin resistance, reduces some inflamation.

Good stuff and again one fat I would add to my diet, but it is expensive.


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## trickymicky69 (Oct 1, 2004)

peachy said:


> oooohhhh..........yea dude
> 
> iv'e always fancied sleeping with a mum and daughter,i'm 26 so maybe the mum being late 30's and the daughter 17/18 oooohhhh yea that would be awesome! :eyebrows:


would you still feel the same if the daughter was 80 mand the mum was like 101?


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## peachy (Mar 20, 2005)

trickymicky69 said:


> would you still feel the same if the daughter was 80 mand the mum was like 101?


no mate thats just wrong lol :crazy:


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

peachy said:


> no mate thats just wrong lol :crazy:


Whats wrong with that? You can pop the teeth out for a really good hummer. Also you wont have to worry about getting her pregnant eather........lol


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## peachy (Mar 20, 2005)

winger said:


> Whats wrong with that? You can pop the teeth out for a really good hummer. Also you wont have to worry about getting her pregnant eather........lol


mmmm........never thought of that! but its just all the really saggy bits that makes me cringe,fanny lips to her knees,tits that tuck in her socks...........eeeeeeerrrrrr


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

peachy said:


> mmmm........never thought of that! but its just all the really saggy bits that makes me cringe,fanny lips to her knees,tits that tuck in her socks...........eeeeeeerrrrrr


Yea but when she is on top the tits fall right in your face so you wont see a thing. :tongue10:


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## Keyser Soze (Dec 12, 2005)

You know lads, there are 80 y.o's out there having sex with 80 y.o's RIGHT NOW... my dad's got a friend from boyhood, he married a Care Worker - and she's seen what they get up to.

About once every two months, she's witnessed elderly couples going at it in the communal toilets because none of the other elderly residents can suddenly burst in on them, can't hear them screaming clearly enough to know it's from passion, not a lack of roughage, can't peep under the gap below the door or stand on the seat and peer over the inter-cubicle partitions, and unlike their bedrooms, they can just leave within 15 minutes of each other, after the coast is clear, and nobody can say a word.

Some nursing homes in Denmark offer the Playboy channel free to residents - male AND female - and the take up rate is in the high 90's with the men. One of the women actually owned up to her, said she loved doing it..."It's much less worrying, know I know for SURE I can't get pregnant, and I don't have to worry about VD" (you can see she's still living in the 70's!!)

Not what you want to think about, but it's happening..the old couple 4 doors down might be getting ON down right this second...wheelchairs by the bedside, false teeth in the jars, might take her a whole hour to get him started up, but they're doing it.

See? You've got your whole life to get laid.


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## peachy (Mar 20, 2005)

keyser mate you are one sick mutha f***** and you've made me feel very ill.......like thinking about your nan takeing it up the bum ill! :tongue10:

your getting a rep point for that post 

your a legend in the making my friend!


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

Brb, I have to fill out my application for the nursing home.


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## Tatyana (Jan 29, 2006)

Nice to know one can make up for lost time. AND with BBing, the body does not have to go! JOY!


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

8 weeks and 4 1/4" and 16.5 lbs so far.

Just added some carbs about 55 grams yesterday and will increase about 10-20 grams till I slow some more.

Shooting for 1 lb a week from her on out, till I hit 40% carbs, 30% fat and 30% protein.


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## Captain Hero (Jun 13, 2004)

hackskii said:


> Well, I started my diet and quit drinking
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> ...


Good man Scott! I hope all is going well! Only just seen this post bro but good luck to ya!


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

Cap said:


> Good man Scott! I hope all is going well! Only just seen this post bro but good luck to ya!


Gota love the Capster. 

He does look leaner, now he's making me look bad.


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## bwl (Mar 9, 2006)

my big vice is the beer. cut down now to about 6-8 pints a night, but still love to go for it on the weekends.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

I only drink on Fridays now.

Every Sat now I have a hangover so drinking on Sat is totally out of the question. 

Usually wake up the next day 1 to 2 lbs lighter. Now I know I am on a diet but this is only water and I feel very flat and weak after all that poision I paid to put in my system:eek:


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## Tatyana (Jan 29, 2006)

bwl said:


> my big vice is the beer. cut down now to about 6-8 pints a night, but still love to go for it on the weekends.


You do know that LAGER is not an official 'weight gainer', go figure! 

T


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

Tatyana said:


> You do know that LAGER is not an official 'weight gainer', go figure!
> 
> T


It is for me.


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## Tatyana (Jan 29, 2006)

OOOPs me with the sloppy linguistics AGAIN

Lager is not a LEGITIMATE weight gainer!

T


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

Tatyana said:


> OOOPs me with the sloppy linguistics AGAIN
> 
> Lager is not a LEGITIMATE weight gainer!
> 
> T


I am so glad you cleared that up.


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## BL1 (Jan 8, 2006)

hackskii said:


> 8 weeks and 4 1/4" and 16.5 lbs so far.
> 
> Just added some carbs about 55 grams yesterday and will increase about 10-20 grams till I slow some more.
> 
> Shooting for 1 lb a week from her on out, till I hit 40% carbs, 30% fat and 30% protein.


Great work !!!!! Keep it up mate !!1


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## Captain Hero (Jun 13, 2004)

Hacks mate whats the word on the diet then? how is it going?


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## DB (Oct 31, 2003)

Where are the pics hacks?? :bounce:


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

DB said:


> Where are the pics hacks?? :bounce:


Big has them.


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## big (Sep 14, 2004)

winger said:


> Big has them.


Yep, and I've been doing some real dirty stuff with them


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## John (Jun 5, 2004)

get the pics up


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

big said:


> Yep, and I've been doing some real dirty stuff with them


Chronic masturbation?


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Glad this popped up, I was looking for it to update it

23.5 lbs lost so far and 5 3/4 inches off the waist.

Funny thing is now I almost am seeing more fat.

I mean that cant be and my mind thinks diffrent then what other people see.

I think it is because it looks more concintrated in one area instead of the whole waist.

My goal was 180 by 3rd week in May for our huge holliday at the river where everthing goes

Now my new goal is 175.

I also bought some of that MTII and saw some pics on another site before and after shots and that stuff is wild. Gives you a nice tan with no sun

Even the skin looked better, so I did what any reckless guy did and spent $400.00 on some tanning peptide....haaaaa haaaaa

Pics?

Hell if you waited this long, you can wait another 5 weeks

I just feel fat and I did a new avatar.

I have one nasty scar runnin down my belly from a bad car accident.

Remember though I am doing PCT right now and dieting, this is a terrible combo to be doing, androgens would be much preferred here but those will be on the low side:eek: due to trying to return my HPTA back to normal.

I am going into Mexico this weekend and grabbing up all the HCG I can. My balls are not 100% and I only got 5 HCG shots (500iu) left and to be honest I dont think I have enough.

This will lengthen out recovery not getting the "T" portion of the HPTA working.

Hell, its all good.

I need some one to take the pics for me and I do feel the next 4-5 weeks need to be done before I give you one of me at the fattest (very funny) and one and the lowest weight (id say skinniest but not in this lifetime).

They are comming tho, I promise.

When you get old like Grampa here, it takes time to get into some decent shape, especially without the extra help I would like to be using ******insert Tren and T3 with GH here**********.

The Avatar was shot today. I am going to go gamble and party my ass off tonight......oh yah............


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

That avatar looks way better.


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## Captain Hero (Jun 13, 2004)

Nice one big man! keep at it bro! You had any comments from people about you looking different Hacks?


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## Captain Hero (Jun 13, 2004)

winger said:


> That avatar looks way better.


Ya man looks good hacks:beer:


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## dynamatiz (Nov 7, 2005)

winger said:


> That avatar looks way better.


yep have to agree there, glad to hear you getting there hacks

you also said your going away to the river where anything goes in may

you going swinging hacks ??


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## Tatyana (Jan 29, 2006)

yes you look good old man!

Stop with the head bollux about not looking good and get some pics up!

x

x

x

T


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## John (Jun 5, 2004)

but lets see more, lots more, you look great man am i sounding gay yet?


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## dynamatiz (Nov 7, 2005)

yes you are ^^^^^

poof


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

John said:


> but lets see more, lots more, you look great man am i sounding gay yet?


You mean again?



dynamatiz said:


> yes you are ^^^^^
> 
> poof


LOL


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## bigdaftjoe (Nov 21, 2005)

looking good fella! im not far behind now down to 245lb 5" off my waist no pics till im happy though!


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

bigdaftjoe said:


> looking good fella! im not far behind now down to 245lb 5" off my waist no pics till im happy though!


Good job Big Joe. 5"s, that is very impressive.


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## bigdaftjoe (Nov 21, 2005)

not when it was 43" to start with!!


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## BIG-UNC (Feb 27, 2006)

hey joe is your avatar supposed to say porn star mate?

not being funny mate might b an oversight or summit


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## Tatyana (Jan 29, 2006)

I thought it was poon, short for punani!

x

T


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

Tatyana said:


> I thought it was poon, short for punani!
> 
> x
> 
> T


Or poontang. Click here for definition.


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## bigdaftjoe (Nov 21, 2005)

winger has it in one!! only ever done home movies and a bit of cctv so could never call mesel a porn star!


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## Tatyana (Jan 29, 2006)

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=yoni

Definition for another one of my fav expressions for the 'flower'

winger, how do you make such cool links hun?

x

x

x

T


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## Tatyana (Jan 29, 2006)

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=lingam

Ok completely hijacking Scott's Thread talking about genitals (well, maybe no we aren't)

Here is another great one for the 'shaft of light'

x

x

x

T


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

Tatyana said:


> 'shaft of light'
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Maybe I will start calling my johnson a light saber. Or I just watch too much Star Wars me thinks. 

For the links I just click on the globe with a link running through threw the bottom and insert the link.

Go here and see where it says Miscellaneous Options and see where it says Message Editor Interface: make it say Enhanced and wella. Does this help?


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Down 25 lbs right now and 6 1/4" on my waist:eek:

It has been 14 weeks so far and I am going to shoot for another 5-10 deptnding on how I look.

PCT and dieting is not exactally the best combo but what the hell.

I do think I have lost some muscle though.


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## Captain Hero (Jun 13, 2004)

hackskii said:


> Down 30 lbs right now and 6 1/4" on my waist:eek:
> 
> It has been 14 weeks so far and I am going to shoot for another 5-10 deptnding on how I look.
> 
> ...


what waist size are you now Hacks?


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

I made a mistake so I edited my post, it is 25 lbs lost not 30.

I typed in 30 by accident thinking I was going to go down 30 lbs by the river trip

DOH!!!!!

I can wear 34 jeans but in the traditional geans 501's I cant really get the legs in there comfortable.

The biggest part of the waist right now as of today measures 35 3/4" around the belly button.

But for every 4 lbs lost it equates to one inch so far.

Which tells me what ever I am doing is targeting mostly fat.


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

Good job mate. It was mostly fat. The fat he lost, found a home with winger..........lol.


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## bigdaftjoe (Nov 21, 2005)

well done mate ive completely fell off the wagon been living in hotels with work and have put 7lb back on waist back up to 40" also am suffering with tonsilitis so not training much! but still kudos to you brother keep it going and post a pic!


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## pookie69 (Apr 20, 2006)

hackskii said:


> Checked to see if I was in ketosis this morning with the keto sticks and not yet.


What are keto sticks?


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## Tatyana (Jan 29, 2006)

pookie69 said:


> What are keto sticks?


Ketone body sticks. You pee on them and wait a certain amount of time, 60 secs me thinks, and compare the colour to tell if you are burning fat due to ketosis.

Usually used in hospital to check if diabetics are in ketoacidotic shock, a very pathological state (BAD).

x

x

x

T


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## pookie69 (Apr 20, 2006)

Tatyana said:


> Ketone body sticks. You pee on them and wait a certain amount of time, 60 secs me thinks, and compare the colour to tell if you are burning fat due to ketosis.
> 
> Usually used in hospital to check if diabetics are in ketoacidotic shock, a very pathological state (BAD).
> 
> ...


Oh i see. Thanks.

I wouldn't know much about Ketosis - i only found out about the 'ketosis diet' the other day from reading these forums. I've always opted for the slow fat loss diet of cutting carbs before bed and going for run in the morning before breakie, 4 times a week

>>> seems to work for me - i see rates of about 1lb weight loss a week which is frustratingly slow actually :/  - i suspect im not losing much muscle at this rate though (not much fat either! - lol)

Ketosis seems favorable all of a sudden :|


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Three are varying states of ketosis and ketoacidiosis is the most extreme cases and usually diabetics and very bad alcoholics get this.

Being in ketosis is not bad, ketoacidiosis is bad but that is rare actually.

The keto sticks just tell you if you are in ketosis, that is all.

I myself even on zero carbs I never got into ketosis which I can not explain.

Possibly the only explanation is not enough fat while on, but I was taking in large amounts so I just dont know.


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## Tatyana (Jan 29, 2006)

hackskii said:


> Three are varying states of ketosis and ketoacidiosis is the most extreme cases and usually diabetics and very bad alcoholics get this.
> 
> Being in ketosis is not bad, ketoacidiosis is bad but that is rare actually.
> 
> ...


Spend a night checking potassium and glucose levels in A/E and then tell me diabetic ketoacidosis is rare Scott, ermmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, NOT

It is quite common and dangerous with diabetics, especially teenagers who do not manage to eat well and go out drinking..............................

x

x

x

T


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Ketoacidosis is rare in a keto diet, actually I have never heard of anyone being in that situation being on a keto diet.

Diabetics and alcoholics have their own set of problems.

Keto diets are not unhealhy if that is what you are suggesting.

Trying to suggest that keto diets have something to do with the condition above is reaching.

Keto diets are fine, fat loss is accelerated, they wont kill you and if anything it will turn you from being a sugar burner to more twards being a fat burner.


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

If most of those diabetics backed off on the sh1t carbs, they might not be diabetics to begin with!

The pancreas can only take in so much sugar. All carbs break down to sugar, just at different rates.


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## Captain Hero (Jun 13, 2004)

Yo hacks! whats the word then mate, how did PCT go? how you feeling now? Are your nuts like Grapefruits now?


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## DB (Oct 31, 2003)

pics??


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## Captain Hero (Jun 13, 2004)

DB said:


> pics??


and that!


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Well, I went on a cycle for about 8 weeks and I am going to do another PCT. I got down to just under 180 lbs but after this 8 weeker I am up to 194.

Not real strict and did have a couple of weeks of boozing.

I need to knock that in the head.

I gain weight far too easy and I need to cut up right now.

I dont have any pics and I put on a inch and a half on the waist. So, let me get that off first before I post pics.

I have a ton of excuses for not posting pics

Too fat

Too small

No camera man

Bad hair day

Forgot to shave (I dont have any hair anyway)


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

hackskii said:


> Too fat
> 
> Too small
> 
> ...


Well 3 out of 5 aint bad. The camera guy did a no show and my razor broke, but the hair is perfect.


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## BIG-UNC (Feb 27, 2006)

c'mon hacks put some pics up mate!

im sure your in better shape than you think mate!!

c'mon


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

BIG-UNC said:


> c'mon hacks put some pics up mate!
> 
> im sure your in better shape than you think mate!!
> 
> c'mon


Maybe but I am feeling fat.

I am dieting again and I gained a half a lb.

WTF, bro thinks it is all the androgens and the IGF I am taking.

I was shooting 100mcg of IGF and my joints were so stiff I almost could not work out.

I lowered it down to 80mcg but now thinking it is still too high.

Once I start my PCT in 2 weeks alot of the water will go and I wont feel so fat and puffy

I will get some up but I dont think I look all that good compared to you young lads.


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## Captain Hero (Jun 13, 2004)

hackskii said:


> Maybe but I am feeling fat.


hacks im gonna ask the same question that Bigdaftjoe asked in another thread -

Hacks, is you a girlie?


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

Cap said:


> hacks im gonna ask the same question that Bigdaftjoe asked in another thread -
> 
> Hacks, is you a girlie?


Only when his man has his way with him..........lol.

Sorry bro. Scott is straight as the day is long.


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## jasonmyint (Jul 31, 2006)

I am working out 5 days a week. I think i am losing weight and muscle at the same time . Any suggestion please that would help alot.What kind of diet would be the best ?


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## Keyser Soze (Dec 12, 2005)

jasonmyint said:


> I am working out 5 days a week. I think i am losing weight and muscle at the same time . Any suggestion please that would help alot.What kind of diet would be the best ?


Oats with skimmed milk for breakfast, and a little grilled chicken breast 6 times a day, plus salad and veg.

KS


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## Carlos901 (Nov 5, 2004)

lol, wouldnt like to think i was eating that everyday, bit boreing?

look in the diet section and recipe forum..


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

jasonmyint said:


> I am working out 5 days a week. I think i am losing weight and muscle at the same time . Any suggestion please that would help alot.What kind of diet would be the best ?


Any time you loose weight you will loose muscle, unless you are taking drugs.

I wouldn't reduce your calories less than 300-500 calories in a day or you will loose muscle.


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## Peg (Feb 9, 2006)

jaysonmyint:

Take some time to read the information in these links:

Losing Body Fat and Keeping Muscle.

Interventions For Enhancing Lean Mass Gain and Fat Mass Loss

Make sure your protein intake is adequate for your body weight and your training intensity.

Post your diet and training routine up and we can take a look at it and help you refine it.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Ah Peg, that link doesnt work, but I have the Nigee's PDF so here it is.

Nigee_s_Guide_to_Healthy_Body_fat_Loss_2.pdf


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## Peg (Feb 9, 2006)

It works for me. I wonder why it didn't work for you? Does it work for you in the  Reading Room Articles?

Thank you for posting it for me.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Peg said:


> It works for me. I wonder why it didn't work for you?
> 
> Thank you for posting it for me.


I don't know maybe it is the work proxy.

I remember reading that e-book about a year ago.

Just looked at some of the links at the bottom and man there is some cool info there.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

The link works Peg, but it wont load.

Reading room either.

I wondered where I got that e-book from, it was you Peg.

I just down load them and worry about reading them later.

I think that link is good but it wont load the PDF


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Peg said:


> jaysonmyint:
> 
> Take some time to read the information in these links:
> 
> ...


This link works from home.

Maybe cached but still works....


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

Test, click here.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

winger said:


> Test, click here.


Works


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

I figured it did.


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## Peg (Feb 9, 2006)

Hackskii

Are you back on track with your diet???

We've gone 5 pages and we're still going.



Hackskii said:


> I will get some up but I dont think I look all that good compared to you young lads.


Ha, don't fret. Young women like the older men, Hackskii, so while you are walking down the street with two gorgeous ladies on your beefy arms, you can look back at the young lads and smile. You flex those muscles and flex 'em with a  on your face.

Looking forward to seeing the result pictures of your lean physique to celebrate your success with ya!


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

Peg said:


> Hackskii
> 
> Are you back on track with your diet???
> 
> ...


He is post cycle so I doubt that will happen......ouch!


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Yah, still been drinkin some alcohol after work.

I need to drop that to get anywhere.


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

A day without alcohol is a day wasted.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Gross!!!!!!!!!!!!!!ewwwww


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## brownie (Jul 6, 2006)

hackskii said:


> Oh, every day after work I would go to this bar accross the street.
> 
> Grab a shot of tequilla (1.5 oz) get a 16 oz of beer.
> 
> ...


Jesus Hackskii thats a lot, i hope your taking some of that milk thistle for your liver. Are you Irish by any chance, you must have Irish blood in you somewhere.

I was a bit like that, then i got married :beer1: and that went out the window.

Ill tell you a little story Hacks of my mother, she drank every day for 20 years and about 4 years ago, she collapsed after drinking probably for 2-3 weeks without eating, now she had got pretty bad with the drink and she was only 48 years old, she never recovered, she was in a coma for 2 weeks and when she came to she was diagnosed with Vernica Korssacoff syndrome.

Dr Vernaca discovered the effects of alcohol related dementia and korrsacoff discovered the effects of brain damage from the lack of vitamin b 12 and thymine.

As a result she is in full time nursing care and in a wheel chair and incontinent. her short term memory is shattered, if we visit and call again in an hour she does not remember we were there an hour ago.

Im not saying your anything like my mother but just letting you know the dangers, people don,t realise how powerful a drug it is. I mean i still drink today but i have a little more respect for it.

:beer1: Cheers Hacskii i hope the detox and diet go well. try and do something for everytime you would have gone for a pint ie paint a room or go do some cardio.


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

This is hackskii on the night after. Click here.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

winger said:


> This is hackskii on the night after. Click here.


Yah right.


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## Tatyana (Jan 29, 2006)

Yes Scott,

I have been posting pics in all my various stages of chub loss, and I got my butt on stage a bit 'girlie curvy' to put it nicely.

PICS!

You know we love you, so don't be worried!

x

x

x

T


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

ok


----------

