# Glycogen Depletion - For Those Who Compete?



## Contest (Oct 4, 2011)

Just curious...

For you fellas who compete, do you employ any glycogen depleting workouts during the last week of your competition or do you keep your training the same as it would be normally?

Also, does anyone know whether HIIT cardio depletes glycogen from the entire body, or just from the primary muscles being used? For example if doing HIIT on a stationary bike, will the majority of glycogen deplete from the legs and liver, or is the upper body also affected? Have read contradicting theories regarding this.

@Pscarb - Was hoping you would know the answer to my second question :innocent:


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## Benchbum (Apr 20, 2011)

In


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## BigKid (Apr 4, 2014)

I did use it during my last week of prep, but the guy that was coaching me is an old school guy and I've read a lot lately about how it's outdated and is counter productive, seemed to work fine for me though


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## Contest (Oct 4, 2011)

BigKid said:


> I did use it during my last week of prep, but the guy that was coaching me is an old school guy and I've read a lot lately about how it's outdated and is counter productive, seemed to work fine for me though


What is so counter-productive about it and what was your carb intake when depleting?


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## BigKid (Apr 4, 2014)

Contest said:


> What is so counter-productive about it and what was your carb intake when depleting?


Read that it's too stressful on the body, but the whole of prep is stressful to be honest though so, carb intake was as low as possible during the depletion week, practically zero bar the veg and any from the 1-2 shakes a day, only carbed up 2nd day and day before the comp


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## Contest (Oct 4, 2011)

BigKid said:


> Read that it's too stressful on the body, but the whole of prep is stressful to be honest though so, carb intake was as low as possible during the depletion week, practically zero bar the veg and any from the 1-2 shakes a day, only carbed up 2nd day and day before the comp


Thanks for your input mate, much appreciated 

I'm in the final week of my prep and am just curious how others do it.


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## Boshlop (Apr 1, 2012)

Contest said:


> Thanks for your input mate, much appreciated
> 
> I'm in the final week of my prep and am just curious how others do it.


if your in the last week change nothing major, you want your body to be in a solid set state for stage day so you can do what you need to do. if you change something you don't know how you react or how you will recover, glycogen/sodium/water are not an enemy here, they should be used just carefully.

if you are totally cut down and ready then good, just look to increase sodium slightly, start to regulate water more and drink it evenly through out the day and slowly let your body start to take in glycogen and fill out again with out holding sub-q water. im sure someone else could give you a more detailed run down but stage day is where things change to get the full results.

on the day drink water in small amounts to stop any bloating but enough to stop you dehydrating, eat carbs at the right times so they are used to replenish, i know some people who have most of the sodium in the hours before they get on stage and something filled with simple sugar prior to pumping up to give the muscle that last min rush.

just be careful with it, depleating the week before then refeeding for 2 days plays a big risk of overspil or looking thin, so it steadily over the week then top up what you think you need on stage day, assuming your going to be up dead early anyways


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## BigKid (Apr 4, 2014)

Contest said:


> Thanks for your input mate, much appreciated
> 
> I'm in the final week of my prep and am just curious how others do it.


Theoretically it does make sense to completely make the body void of all glycogen, you will look like ****, and then come the carb up your body should take it all up and pull out all of the water there is, it this is your last week I'll send you the supplement protocol he had me on, herbs and minerals etc, can all be got from Holland and Barrett and worked really well for me, the carb up method he used for me was 400g carbs split 50/50 between simple and complex carbs 2 days from comp and then 400g complex the day before


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## Contest (Oct 4, 2011)

Boshlop said:


> if your in the last week change nothing major, you want your body to be in a solid set state for stage day so you can do what you need to do. if you change something you don't know how you react or how you will recover, glycogen/sodium/water are not an enemy here, they should be used just carefully.
> 
> if you are totally cut down and ready then good, just look to increase sodium slightly, start to regulate water more and drink it evenly through out the day and slowly let your body start to take in glycogen and fill out again with out holding sub-q water. im sure someone else could give you a more detailed run down but stage day is where things change to get the full results.
> 
> ...


I've got everything outlined by my coach but thanks for your input mate 

Like I mentioned everyone does this differently and I'm just curious to know how other people do it.

Why do you say,"depleting the week before, then re-feeding for 2 days" is risky? If you're quite depleted, isn't the chance of over-spillage very minimal?


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## Big ape (May 5, 2011)

Boshlop said:


> if your in the last week change nothing major, you want your body to be in a solid set state for stage day so you can do what you need to do. if you change something you don't know how you react or how you will recover, glycogen/sodium/water are not an enemy here, they should be used just carefully.
> 
> if you are totally cut down and ready then good, just look to increase sodium slightly, start to regulate water more and drink it evenly through out the day and slowly let your body start to take in glycogen and fill out again with out holding sub-q water. im sure someone else could give you a more detailed run down but stage day is where things change to get the full results.
> 
> ...


Agree with above,

I wouldn't make any drastic changes.

ideally a mock peek weak would have been a better choice to test the waters.

Good luck fella get pics up if u can.


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## Contest (Oct 4, 2011)

Taken yesterday at Ultimate Fitness gym in Birmingham by Simon Fan...


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## Big ape (May 5, 2011)

Contest said:


> Taken yesterday at Ultimate Fitness gym in Birmingham by Simon Fan...


Pic ain't coming up :confused1:


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## Contest (Oct 4, 2011)

@Big ape - Check now mate


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## Boshlop (Apr 1, 2012)

Contest said:


> I've got everything outlined by my coach but thanks for your input mate
> 
> Like I mentioned everyone does this differently and I'm just curious to know how other people do it.
> 
> Why do you say,"depleting the week before, then re-feeding for 2 days" is risky? If you're quite depleted, isn't the chance of over-spillage very minimal?


if you deplete then start to refeed 2 days out you have 2 days, 2 days is not a long time to know how you have reacted to things, yea a power refeed for a day or two might add a ****e tonne of size but it there is a bit too much and suddenly your body needs to put ti somewhere it can look watery, or if there isnt enough and you try to make it up last min you can look bloated. if its spread out then you can be 50% full then focus on been accurate in a smaller range to reduce the change of eating too much or little. filling out (i use totally random number here) 8kg of glycogen is alot, but if you half full or more through out the week and only need 3kg more to fill out your going to be more accurate. easier to hit closer goals more accurate IMO. then the days of slow refeeding give youa solid idea of what your body is going to use to produce glycogen, where as the totally depleted method means you are going in a rough ball park from been in a very sensitive state.

depending how far away comp is i like the tester approach, refeed over a few days to see what happens, then when its comp week do it slower using what you learned and really hit the peak condition.


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## Big ape (May 5, 2011)

Contest said:


> @Big ape - Check now mate


That is ridiculous ... need some presents under that christmas tree lol

what competition u in?


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## Contest (Oct 4, 2011)

Big ape said:


> That is ridiculous ... need some presents under that christmas tree lol
> 
> what competition u in?


Doing the UKBFF Classics in Birmingham mate.


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## Big ape (May 5, 2011)

Contest said:


> Doing the UKBFF Classics in Birmingham mate.


best of luck mate... let us know how u do!


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## Contest (Oct 4, 2011)

Big ape said:


> best of luck mate... let us know how u do!


Thanks mate and I shall do


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## defdaz (Nov 11, 2007)

Looking great mate!

Glycogen stored in muscles is only used by that particular muscle. Liver glycogen is used to keep blood sugar levels constant and provide glucose to the rest of the body.


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## BigKid (Apr 4, 2014)

defdaz said:


> Looking great mate!
> 
> Glycogen stored in muscles is only used by that particular muscle. Liver glycogen is used to keep blood sugar levels constant and provide glucose to the rest of the body.


You wouldn't happen to be a Darren that trains at elite Fitness in redditch would you :lol:


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## defdaz (Nov 11, 2007)

BigKid said:


> You wouldn't happen to be a Darren that trains at elite Fitness in redditch would you :lol:


I just might be?!? Who dat?!


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## BigKid (Apr 4, 2014)

Stefan haha, thought I recognised that behemoth back of yours :lol:


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## defdaz (Nov 11, 2007)

BigKid said:


> Stefan haha, thought I recognised that behemoth back of yours :lol:


Haha! Ahhh I should have guessed from your name  I'm off up there in a bit, see you there?


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## BigKid (Apr 4, 2014)

defdaz said:


> Haha! Ahhh I should have guessed from your name  I'm off up there in a bit, see you there?


Only thing I could think of haha, yeah up there at the minute, just finished legs and puked my breakfast up  probably be filling my face by the time you get here


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## defdaz (Nov 11, 2007)

BigKid said:


> Only thing I could think of haha, yeah up there at the minute, just finished legs and puked my breakfast up  probably be filling my face by the time you get here


That's how you know if you've trained legs hard enough lol! Job done 

Haha, no change there then - secret to getting big: fill your face with good clean food lol


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## Contest (Oct 4, 2011)

defdaz said:


> Looking great mate!
> 
> Glycogen stored in muscles is only used by that particular muscle. Liver glycogen is used to keep blood sugar levels constant and provide glucose to the rest of the body.


Thanks mate 

So HIIT cardio would deplete glycogen primarily from the legs where as something like rowing will tax the upper body?


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

What has Shelby outlined for your final week?


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## defdaz (Nov 11, 2007)

Contest said:


> Thanks mate
> 
> So HIIT cardio would deplete glycogen primarily from the legs where as something like rowing will tax the upper body?


Yep  Assuming you have much glycogen left to deplete


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## Contest (Oct 4, 2011)

Pscarb said:


> What has Shelby outlined for your final week?


In terms of training, train as per usual but don't train legs this week.

Carb intake is 75g on workout days and 0g on rest days.

Cardio and weights all stop on Thursday.

Only a two day carb-up starting from Friday.


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

Contest said:


> In terms of training, train as per usual but don't train legs this week.
> 
> Carb intake is 75g on workout days and 0g on rest days.
> 
> ...


sounds pretty much to what i do....simple to get the job done.....


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## Contest (Oct 4, 2011)

Pscarb said:


> sounds pretty much to what i do....simple to get the job done.....


During your carb-load, do you consume fats with your meals mate? I'll be having 10g with each meal (7 meals in total).

Also, was defdaz correct that glycogen is only depleted primarily from the muscles that are in use as opposed to the whole body?


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## defdaz (Nov 11, 2007)

Contest said:


> During your carb-load, do you consume fats with your meals mate? I'll be having 10g with each meal (7 meals in total).
> 
> *Also, was defdaz correct that glycogen is only depleted primarily from the muscles that are in use as opposed to the whole body?*


 :death:


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## Contest (Oct 4, 2011)

defdaz said:


> :death:


Lmao just want a second opinion mate as my coach thinks otherwise.


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

Contest said:


> During your carb-load, do you consume fats with your meals mate? I'll be having 10g with each meal (7 meals in total).


i don't add fats to carb up meals but i do understand why Shelby would add a small amount....



Contest said:


> Also, was defdaz correct that glycogen is only depleted primarily from the muscles that are in use as opposed to the whole body?


Ha Ha......sort of, say if you train chest using a depletion workout then of course glycogen will be depleted from that muscle but it will also effect your biceps, triceps and shoulders as they are all involved in the movement for chest....so it is not as simple as yes/no answer....training chest won't effect glycogen in the back or Legs.....if that makes sense...

thing is going into this final week you will be depleted all ready as you certainly won't be full, i see so many do stupid amount of reps at a low weight to deplete further but you can only be depleted, you can be double depleted 

Shelby has you training your normal way in the final week and this is a good thing to do......stopping training a few days out will not only assist with the carb up process but will also allow the water to drop off as there will be less inflammation to the muscle that training brings.


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## Contest (Oct 4, 2011)

Pscarb said:


> i don't add fats to carb up meals but i do understand why Shelby would add a small amount....
> 
> Ha Ha......sort of, say if you train chest using a depletion workout then of course glycogen will be depleted from that muscle but it will also effect your biceps, triceps and shoulders as they are all involved in the movement for chest....so it is not as simple as yes/no answer....training chest won't effect glycogen in the back or Legs.....if that makes sense...
> 
> ...


Thanks for your input Paul. It's my first competition so you can probably tell I'm very nervous lol


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

Contest said:


> Thanks for your input Paul. It's my first competition so you can probably tell I'm very nervous lol


have faith in Shelby's methods buddy


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## BigKid (Apr 4, 2014)

Contest said:


> Thanks for your input Paul. It's my first competition so you can probably tell I'm very nervous lol


As far as I've been told by the brother of Simon's mate you're in really good condition mate


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## Contest (Oct 4, 2011)

Pscarb said:


> have faith in Shelby's methods buddy


I can't fault him mate. He's got me this far 



BigKid said:


> As far as I've been told by the brother of Simon's mate you're in really good condition mate


Do you train at UF mate and which mate are you referring to?


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## BigKid (Apr 4, 2014)

Contest said:


> Do you train at UF mate and which mate are you referring to?


No I don't train there mate, Simon's mate Dean, I know his brother Dan


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## Contest (Oct 4, 2011)

BigKid said:


> No I don't train there mate, Simon's mate Dean, I know his brother Dan


Dean Lesiak? U haven't had the pleasure of speaking to him but that guy is a beast. Proper awesome physique.


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## BigKid (Apr 4, 2014)

Contest said:


> Dean Lesiak? U haven't had the pleasure of speaking to him but that guy is a beast. Proper awesome physique.


Yeah, he seems like an alright guy, yeah his physique is brilliant, always stays in brilliant condition year round, but the picture of your back got showed to Dean and he was really impressed Dan said


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## Contest (Oct 4, 2011)

Pscarb said:


> i don't add fats to carb up meals but i do understand why Shelby would add a small amount....


Hey Paul,

If you don't mind me asking, can you explain to me what purpose healthy fats have during the carb-loading prcoess?

I've spoken to a few competitive bodybuilders now and what they all seem to do is carb-load for 2-3 days, but on the day of the competition (especially the hours prior to stepping on stage), they'd consume something like 1-2 rice cakes with a table spoon of almond butter every 30-45 minutes.

I've heard/read that the fats help with muscle fullness & vascularity but can't actually find a logical reason of how and why this happens.

Do you employ a similar protocol for yourself?

Hope you can help mate


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

Contest said:


> Hey Paul,
> 
> If you don't mind me asking, can you explain to me what purpose healthy fats have during the carb-loading prcoess?
> 
> ...


i use many methods this is one of them mate and to be honest it all depends on the individual.....fats keep you satisfied longer so your not as hungry which is a great benefit on show day plus fats do give you fullness, i fat load all the women i coach.

fat loading with good fats and saturated fats is a common approach with some coaches but it is not a well know method......

essentially on show day you should be ready and the food you eat is really on there to give you a little fullness if needed plus energy......as being onstage is hard as hell.....


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## Boshlop (Apr 1, 2012)

have to ask why i think and paul reminded me with saying fat energy. how is your posing going for first time? always interesting to see someone react to been taught how to pose and finding it as much work as the gym its self


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## Contest (Oct 4, 2011)

Pscarb said:


> i use many methods this is one of them mate and to be honest it all depends on the individual.....fats keep you satisfied longer so your not as hungry which is a great benefit on show day plus fats do give you fullness, i fat load all the women i coach.
> 
> fat loading with good fats and saturated fats is a common approach with some coaches but it is not a well know method......
> 
> essentially on show day you should be ready and the food you eat is really on there to give you a little fullness if needed plus energy......as being onstage is hard as hell.....


I didn't even think about the whole concept of satiety on competition day lol.

Thanks for your input mate, as always it's greatly appreciated 

I have one more hypothetical question mate; if an individual in their last week of contest prep depletes on 40g of carbs or less, and is exactly where they should be in terms of condition, to keep energy levels high, should healthy fats be increased even if it takes there calorie count quite high? As fat is more calorie dense than carbs, I don't understand how this can be achieved or whether calories even matter during the last week of contest prep.

Riding of the first question mate, can consuming too much healthy fats when fat loading whilst keeping carbs very low (sub 50g) lead to spillage? I am unsure whether the term spillage is related to over-carbing leading to excess water retention, or consuming to many calories leading to fat gain.

I know a few people who prefer to fat-load for one day before beginning their carb-load, but again, I don't understand this theory. They don't eat any crap but tend to overdose on nut butters, nuts, beef and salmon.

Thanks once again for helping me out and answering my questions. I think Shelby is an amazing coach but it doesn't mean I don't value or appreciate the opinions of other bodybuilders


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

healthy fats imo do not play a role as such (other than what i mentioned earlier) in the final week unless you are going to use them to fat load, calories do not matter in the final week no one i know runs into the final week thinking about calories only carb or fat amounts...and the amount that is used is based on the individual so really there is no set point.

some react better with fats than carbs but this is something a good coach will know well before the final week.

i have never heard of fat loading before a carb load, i would o the opposite, i tend to stop the carbs mid afternoon the day before a show and load with fats then there is less chance of spilling over or going flat......


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## Contest (Oct 4, 2011)

Pscarb said:


> healthy fats imo do not play a role as such (other than what i mentioned earlier) in the final week unless you are going to use them to fat load, calories do not matter in the final week no one i know runs into the final week thinking about calories only carb or fat amounts...and the amount that is used is based on the individual so really there is no set point.
> 
> some react better with fats than carbs but this is something a good coach will know well before the final week.
> 
> i have never heard of fat loading before a carb load, i would o the opposite, i tend to stop the carbs mid afternoon the day before a show and load with fats then there is less chance of spilling over or going flat......


Hi Paul,

The guys I know who do this basically plan their load like this...

Day 1 - Fat load

Day 2 - Carb load

Day 3 - Carb load

Competition Day - Carb Load lightly in the morning but then slowly switch over to fats.

They theorize that by fat loading quite heavily on day 1, it means they don't need as much carbs to load with on days 2 & 3 minimizing the risk of spillage.


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

Contest said:


> Hi Paul,
> 
> The guys I know who do this basically plan their load like this...
> 
> ...


i tend to do it the opposite way......


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## Contest (Oct 4, 2011)

Pscarb said:


> i tend to do it the opposite way......


Do you see any merit in doing it this way? Theoretically it doesn't sound like a bad plan but theories don't always translate to real-world results.

By the way, if going down the fat loading route, how much fat do competitors normally consume? The subject of fat loading seems to be much less discussed compared to carb loading.

When carb loading we know that depending on the individual, they may load on; 300g, 500g, 800g, etc per day. But for fat loading would the amount be somewhat similar? If so, that's a hell of a lot of calories.


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

Contest said:


> Do you see any merit in doing it this way? Theoretically it doesn't sound like a bad plan but theories don't always translate to real-world results.
> 
> By the way, if going down the fat loading route, how much fat do competitors normally consume? The subject of fat loading seems to be much less discussed compared to carb loading.
> 
> When carb loading we know that depending on the individual, they may load on; 300g, 500g, 800g, etc per day. But for fat loading would the amount be somewhat similar? If so, that's a hell of a lot of calories.


you are trying to get a static number to do this and it just does not work like that buddy, i have never done fat loading before carb loading so i cannot comment but the final week is more about experience really as there are many ways that maybe do not make sense or are logical on paper but in the real world work and work well.

when i fat load someone i come up with a number based on the way that person looks and how they have reacted through the diet, if it is not enough i increase and vice versa...


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## Contest (Oct 4, 2011)

Pscarb said:


> you are trying to get a static number to do this and it just does not work like that buddy, i have never done fat loading before carb loading so i cannot comment but the final week is more about experience really as there are many ways that maybe do not make sense or are logical on paper but in the real world work and work well.
> 
> when i fat load someone i come up with a number based on the way that person looks and how they have reacted through the diet, if it is not enough i increase and vice versa...


Could you give me an example of how much fat you've had your clients consume when fat loading mate. What confuses me about this concept is that when carb-loading, people have been known to go up to 1200-1500g of carbs no problem, but I highly doubt anyone consumes that much fat when fat-loading.

I guess what I'm getting at is that there surely must be a maximum number when fat-loading as if someone consumes 400g of fat, that's 3600Kcal alone and would cause pretty bad gastrointestinal distress.

Also, does fat-loading consist of loading on high fats, low carbs or are carbs still kept fairly high?

From reading online, it seems what people do is either, carb-load, fat-load or sh*tload (which appears to be a combination of carbs & fats).

I don't know whether I've got it wrong but I'm under the assumption that fat-loading is high fats and lowish carbs.


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

Contest said:


> Could you give me an example of how much fat you've had your clients consume when fat loading mate. What confuses me about this concept is that when carb-loading, people have been known to go up to 1200-1500g of carbs no problem, but I highly doubt anyone consumes that much fat when fat-loading.
> 
> I guess what I'm getting at is that there surely must be a maximum number when fat-loading as if someone consumes 400g of fat, that's 3600Kcal alone and would cause pretty bad gastrointestinal distress.
> 
> ...


there is no point me giving you a number because you do not know the details of the individual that applies to, but your gauging fat loading by calories why? is that how you gauge carb loading? distress of the gut would and does occur more with carb loading than fat loading as the volume for say 400g of fat is much less than 1000g carbs.....

any type of loading apart from sh1t loading you manage the grams of the macro (Carbs or Fats) not calories, they are irrelevant.

when i use Fat loading the carbs are low yes, there is no reason to have them high.....


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## Big ape (May 5, 2011)

you have got pre comp paranoia lol ... serious mate trust your coach, u hired him


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## Contest (Oct 4, 2011)

Pscarb said:


> there is no point me giving you a number because you do not know the details of the individual that applies to, but your gauging fat loading by calories why? is that how you gauge carb loading?
> 
> any type of loading apart from sh1t loading you manage the grams of the macro (Carbs or Fats) not calories, they are irrelevant.
> 
> when i use Fat loading the carbs are low yes, there is no reason to have them high.....


Sorry mate, I should know by now to concentrate on macro's as opposed to calories :lol:

I only ask for number because I can't see how an individual can consume so much fat without upsetting & distressing their stomachs. Anytime I've tried a high fat diet, my stomach feels battered.


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## Contest (Oct 4, 2011)

Big ape said:


> you have got pre comp paranoia lol ... serious mate trust your coach, u hired him


Lol oh I'm happy with what I'm doing mate. I just want to get my head around fat-loading and see how it differs from carb-loading.


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## sauliuhas (Dec 29, 2008)

It does look like overthinking things 

It causes more stress and stress causes more muscle loss lol

ill load up with ice cream  and a steak with chips


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## Contest (Oct 4, 2011)

sauliuhas said:


> It does look like overthinking things
> 
> It causes more stress and stress causes more muscle loss lol
> 
> ill load up with ice cream  and a steak with chips


Oh trust me mate I'm currently very chilled out lol.

I'll be sticking to sweet potatoes, chicken and turkey for my load


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

Contest said:


> Sorry mate, I should know by now to concentrate on macro's as opposed to calories :lol:
> 
> I only ask for number because I can't see how an individual can consume so much fat without upsetting & distressing their stomachs. *Anytime I've tried a high fat diet, my stomach feels battered.*


but this goes with the individual and what you have learnt as a coach in the time you have worked with them....


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