# most effective fat burning steroid?



## miketheballer (Jan 29, 2010)

whats all your opinions guys. i want to know more about steroids, purely for my own interest.

would appreciate any help


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## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

Your prob going to get the usual " no steroid burns fat, you need diet and cardio"

while I agree on diet I do not believe cardio is required.

As for steroid??? They don't burn fat directly, but thro increased metabolism and protein synthesis and other secondary actions, if diet is adequate you will lean up.

Saying that, Tren does 100% facillitate fat loss thro several Modes of action


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## Cra16 (Jan 23, 2010)

jw007 said:


> Your prob going to get the usual " no steroid burns fat, you need diet and cardio"
> 
> while I agree on diet I do not believe cardio is required.
> 
> ...


as does anavar


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## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

Cra16 said:


> as does anavar


You will now get flames by cut and paste brigade for posting that


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## Old but not out (Sep 8, 2009)

miketheballer said:


> whats all your opinions guys. i want to know more about steroids, purely for my own interest.
> 
> would appreciate any help


All steroids increase the rate of fat metabolism. They do this through a number of pathways. As well as increasing metabolic rate testosterone (and its AS derivatives) have a glucose saving effect which means that at any exercise intensity (and at rest) a higher percentage of fat is burned.

As to what steroid does this the best - I would hesitate a guess that the most effective steroids for performance enhancement would be the best at this also. The water retention associated with some compounds (if estrogen is not controlled) will mask any fat loss. This also gives people that the IMPRESSION that AS which do not cause water retention burn fat more effectively. Obviously not controlling estrogen will also inhibit the potential to decrease fat mass.

Fat loss will be improved many fold by good diet and exercise protocols when on a diet


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## Mars (Aug 25, 2007)

Cra16 said:


> as does anavar


Certainly does, var in high doses is a great med.


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## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

Isnt this interesting???

Because some more Knowledgeable posters have posted that steroids "do" in fact promote fat loss

There are not the usual "diet and cardio" posts??????

Will there be any do you think?? (apart from joke ones that will no doubt follow )


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## fadel (Feb 13, 2010)

It's because you mentioned they don't lol had you not said that there probably woulda been a big list of it


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## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

fadel said:


> It's because you mentioned they don't lol had you not said that there probably woulda been a big list of it


will have to try an experiment then ha ha


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## Smitch (Dec 29, 2008)

Cra16 said:


> as does anavar


It didn't for me. But 50mg a day was a pretty low dose though, i really should have done 75-100mg from what others on here have said. 

And i'm a fat cvnt.....


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## YetiMan1436114545 (Dec 7, 2007)

Nap 50sssssssss!


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## nutnut (Dec 29, 2008)

jw007 said:


> Saying that, Tren does 100% facillitate fat loss thro several Modes of action


Hey JW, if you don't mind answering.... there was a post a while back, I can find just not at the mo (Stuck at work) which a lot of guys were running say 1/2 Tren to whatever test (soo 1g test 500mg tren) but you said or someone said you were doing 1g each, just wondering any benefit from running at same ratio?

Thanks in advance.


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## fallenangel (Nov 12, 2009)

Tren does for me. I only do one cycle a year now and noticed even though my diet is cleaner and i do more cardio i was visibly leaner when i did time on = time off and then i tended to do test only. So probably lots to some degree and tren ime the best.


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## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

nutnut said:


> Hey JW, if you don't mind answering.... there was a post a while back, I can find just not at the mo (Stuck at work) which a lot of guys were running say 1/2 Tren to whatever test (soo 1g test 500mg tren) but you said or someone said you were doing 1g each, just wondering any benefit from running at same ratio?
> 
> Thanks in advance.


People find a good trade off in a 2:1 ratio with test and tren, with regards benefits to sides etc

Having higher test is a way people try to negate the libido shut down tren can cause

Running at same dose, you can do but if suffer from sides they wuld probbe more prominant IME


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## Old but not out (Sep 8, 2009)

On no AS and reasonable diet (lowish carbs) and daily high intensity cardio I sit between 9 and 11% body fat.

On 500mg of test, eating (chocolate, pizza, take aways etc) what I want and doing minimal cardio I sit at about 7-9% says it all Ha Ha


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## Old but not out (Sep 8, 2009)

Bump - because I just noticed I am on 666 posts!!!


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## SD (Sep 3, 2004)

Tren by far. Be prepared for night sweats and hot flushes though. Must be run with at least a little test for libido.

SD


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## nutnut (Dec 29, 2008)

jw007 said:


> People find a good trade off in a 2:1 ratio with test and tren, with regards benefits to sides etc
> 
> Having higher test is a way people try to negate the libido shut down tren can cause
> 
> Running at same dose, you can do but if suffer from sides they wuld probbe more prominant IME


Thank you, have repped...

So apart from sides its alright to 1:1 test/tren ratio? or not worth it?


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## noel (Dec 30, 2005)

worth it is your own view

you may gain far better on 4g of test than 1g but would the sides be worth it?

all too individual to answer? everyone has a different tolerance level and a risk/reward they are prepared to accept

i think the 'risk' of a serious libido issue may, just in my opinion , be a bit of a headfcuk....it might not? who knows how you will react - are you then happy to bung in other stuff to attempt to rectify? again all worth considering

if you are using the example 1g of test and 0.5g of Tren a week im pretty sure you would be off on the right track - can always tinker with it see how you get on


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## SD (Sep 3, 2004)

jw007 said:


> Isnt this interesting???
> 
> Because some more Knowledgeable posters have posted that steroids "do" in fact promote fat loss
> 
> ...


Are you on a soapbox lately or is it just me???? :laugh:


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## DogBoy (Aug 11, 2009)

In the interest of a discussion....

Steroids don't burn fat directly


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## SD (Sep 3, 2004)

noel said:


> worth it is your own view
> 
> you may gain far better on 4g of test than 1g but would the sides be worth it?
> 
> ...


Thats a 2:1 ratio by volume, it should be a 2:1 ratio by dosage in mg so 800mg Test to 400mg Tren for example.

SD


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## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

SD said:


> Are you on a soapbox lately or is it just me???? :laugh:


Yes 

some things just get on my nerves, like holier and thou people and those who think they are better than others.

Hypocritical I know, as I have a superiority complex, but for everyone else you are equally inferior and as such no ones views or descions should be derided by any self appointed expert

ps

will finally reply pm today as got some time


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## YetiMan1436114545 (Dec 7, 2007)

jw007 said:


> will finally reply pm today as got some time


I had naked pics ready to send and everything!


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## noel (Dec 30, 2005)

i meant dose ie 1000mg vs 500mg  as who knows what dose his stuff is..... agree though should have made it clearer - cheers


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## militant (Jul 12, 2014)

Tren ace and test prop helped me a great deal. EOD shots are a killer. lol


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## Testoholic (Jun 13, 2009)

wow im suprised at this thread, wheres the diet and cardio police? :laugh:

if bodyfat reduction is what your after test/tren/var are your friends, mg for mg obviously anavar is most effective IMO.

tren has stripped a fair bit of fat off me so far..


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## round 2 (Jan 14, 2010)

I know a few who use gh to cut???


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## NickR24 (Sep 9, 2009)

I'm dieting on nothing at the moment, but now im getting down to the last 7 pounds or so, I want to add something to the mix to assist. Was actually planning on test, but after this thread should I actually be considering anavar? Especially as im currently training for a fight (boxing) in august - what would be more beneficial? I'm guessing anavar, as no water retention?


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## YetiMan1436114545 (Dec 7, 2007)

I know nothing but just based on what I've read...

Isn't Anavar and Winnie good for helping fat loss?


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## Testoholic (Jun 13, 2009)

YetiMan said:


> I know nothing but just based on what I've read...
> 
> Isn't Anavar and Winnie good for helping fat loss?


anavar at higher doses yes, winny no, it will just help hold on to muscle


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## DB (Oct 31, 2003)

You notice MINOR fat loss on tren! minor!

everything else is even less noticeable, yes you're heavier on AAS so your basal metabolic rate will increase due to that but to say it makes a huge difference is bollocks!lol

Yes the cardio&diet crew is here! doing 45 mins cardio every day will make a huge difference compared to adding tren!!


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## cecil_sensation (Jan 26, 2009)

100% dedication to cardio and diet is the key to lose weight :laugh: :lol: :laugh: :lol:

this is when my front door gets kicked in by jw and im going to be beaten for writing that :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## ste08 (Jan 4, 2009)

Ive just started using T5's & winstrol 50mg, along with 2 sessions of 40mins cardio, 330g protein & 120carbs per day. Will see how things progress.


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## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

DB said:


> *You notice MINOR* fat loss on tren! minor!
> 
> everything else is even less noticeable, yes you're heavier on AAS so your basal metabolic rate will increase due to that but to say it makes a huge difference is bollocks!lol
> 
> Yes the cardio&diet crew is here! doing 45 mins cardio every day will make a huge difference compared to adding tren!!


Is that a global generalisation??

Cause I get sh1t loads fat loss

Pics later this week as just started mini blast tren


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## Old but not out (Sep 8, 2009)

DB said:


> You notice MINOR fat loss on tren! minor!
> 
> everything else is even less noticeable, yes you're heavier on AAS so your basal metabolic rate will increase due to that but to say it makes a huge difference is bollocks!lol
> 
> Yes the cardio&diet crew is here! doing 45 mins cardio every day will make a huge difference compared to adding tren!!


Do a literature search on pubmed and read some of the abstracts you will see that steroids make ann enormous difference to body composition (both kg of fat lost and percentage change) - far greater than any found over the same period in studies looking at training


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## DogBoy (Aug 11, 2009)

Old but not out said:


> Do a literature search on pubmed and read some of the abstracts you will see that steroids make ann enormous difference to body composition (both kg of fat lost and percentage change) - far greater than any found over the same period in studies looking at training


Do you think this is because of muscle increase,leading to a less fat percentage overall...so you've not actually lost fat,you've just gained muscle,so the LBM ratio is improved.Also subcutaneous water loss associated with high androgens,will show a lower fat percentage.


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## DB (Oct 31, 2003)

jw007 said:


> Is that a global generalisation??
> 
> Cause I get sh1t loads fat loss
> 
> Pics later this week as just started mini blast tren


There is no such thing as 'mini' when it comes to your tren use lol!

plus how do u know with the rest of the GH and cack u run!

Just playing devil's advocate 



Old but not out said:


> Do a literature search on pubmed and read some of the abstracts you will see that steroids make ann enormous difference to body composition (both kg of fat lost and percentage change) - *far greater than any found over the same period in studies looking at training*


SO you're saying if I bash in 500mg tren/week for 12 weeks it'll get me leaner than eating a clean diet and doing cardio?

I have no doubt tren gives minor fat loss effects but nothing compared to a decent training/cardio mate


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## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

DB said:


> There is no such thing as 'mini' when it comes to your tren use lol!
> 
> plus how do u know with the rest of the GH and cack u run!
> 
> ...


Why cant you use tren and eat a clean diet???? :confused1: :confused1: :confused1:

Why is it always one or other to try prove a point???

And yes I do beleive you wont need cardio

Unless you have female predisposition for fatty deposits around ar5e and lower back:whistling:

Then you have no choice


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## DB (Oct 31, 2003)

jw007 said:


> Why cant you use tren and eat a clean diet???? :confused1: :confused1: :confused1:
> 
> Why is it always one or other to try prove a point???
> 
> ...


LMFAO cnut!

Of course a combo of all 3 would be best! but the dude i quoted said you'd get leaner from tren than training/cardio to which i called bs


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## PHHead (Aug 20, 2008)

I don't know if it "burns fat" but Tbol+Proviron really ripped me up when I cycled it, tried Anavar at a high dose while on a Sust cycle too and got good gains but didn't notice any more leanness while running it.


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## Old but not out (Sep 8, 2009)

DogBoy said:


> Do you think this is because of muscle increase,leading to a less fat percentage overall...so you've not actually lost fat,you've just gained muscle,so the LBM ratio is improved.Also subcutaneous water loss associated with high androgens,will show a lower fat percentage.


No it is not just this - fat is lost in terms of fat mass as well as percentage. Plus steroids have been shown to have the effect of increasing fat metabolism and also have the ability to act well back in the lineage of cell development and preventing fat cells developing - even encouraging them them to differentiate into muscle cells instead

"Testosterone stimulates Pluripotent stem cells to enter the muscle cell lineage, developing into satellite cells and myoblasts rather than adipocyte cells. This allows for reciprocal changes in both body fat and muscle mass (Herbst and Bhasin 2004, Sinha-Hikim, Taylor, et al. 2004)."


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## d4ead (Nov 3, 2008)

i lean up a lot when ever i go on a blast no matter what im useing. have to say leanest ive been has been on tren, masttest combo.

Im not talking pose on a stage lean but at least not embaresed to take my top of on the beach slim.


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## miketheballer (Jan 29, 2010)

thanks for all the replies guys, is appreciated. . . some very conflicting views but also very interesting.

:thumb:


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## DogBoy (Aug 11, 2009)

Old but not out said:


> No it is not just this - fat is lost in terms of fat mass as well as percentage. Plus steroids have been shown to have the effect of increasing fat metabolism and also have the ability to act well back in the lineage of cell development and preventing fat cells developing - even encouraging them them to differentiate into muscle cells instead
> 
> "Testosterone stimulates Pluripotent stem cells to enter the muscle cell lineage, developing into satellite cells and myoblasts rather than adipocyte cells. This allows for reciprocal changes in both body fat and muscle mass (Herbst and Bhasin 2004, Sinha-Hikim, Taylor, et al. 2004)."


Interesting! But that doesn't suggest 'fat burning' to me.That's stopping more fat cells from developing,not affecting cells that are already there.


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## Old but not out (Sep 8, 2009)

DogBoy said:


> Interesting! But that doesn't suggest 'fat burning' to me.That's stopping more fat cells from developing,not affecting cells that are already there.


Fat burning also occurs, testosterone has a glycogen saving effect which ensures a greater percentage of fat is burnt on a daily basis. Hence the comment in my post regarding the increase in fat metabolism - "Plus steroids have been shown to have the effect of increasing fat metabolism and also have the ability"


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## DogBoy (Aug 11, 2009)

Old but not out said:


> Fat burning also occurs, testosterone has a glycogen saving effect which ensures a greater percentage of fat is burnt on a daily basis. Hence the comment in my post regarding the increase in fat metabolism - "Plus steroids have been shown to have the effect of increasing fat metabolism and also have the ability"


Avi looks friggin awesome bud!

In all honesty,i think it'd be VERY minimal and diet/dose dependent.

I hate when i see guys post up "i've been running tren for 4 weeks,eating everything i can and fat is melting off me!" Horse ****.....same goes for T3.

^^I know thats not what we're talking about,but just felt the need to vent it lol.


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## Old but not out (Sep 8, 2009)

DogBoy said:


> Avi looks friggin awesome bud!
> 
> In all honesty,i think it'd be VERY minimal and diet/dose dependent.
> 
> ...


I am not sure - if I run test with an AI I loose a great deal of fat without any change in eating.

My avi is after 6 weeks on Test E - will post up the b4 and you might see what I mean.


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## DogBoy (Aug 11, 2009)

Old but not out said:


> I am not sure - if I run test with an AI I loose a great deal of fat without any change in eating.
> 
> My avi is after 6 weeks on Test E - will post up the b4 and you might see what I mean.


What dose of test do you use and what AI? What about your training style? Still the same? I know you know what you're doing,and i know you know this,but using the AI is reducing estrogen,thus reducing water retention.The test is filling out the muscles with more blood/glycogen,making the skin tighter also.

looking forward to the pic


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## Old but not out (Sep 8, 2009)

DogBoy said:


> What dose of test do you use and what AI? What about your training style? Still the same? I know you know what you're doing,and i know you know this,but using the AI is reducing estrogen,thus reducing water retention.The test is filling out the muscles with more blood/glycogen,making the skin tighter also.
> 
> looking forward to the pic


My dose of test 500mg Test E split in 2 doses a week. My AI is anastrazole dosed every other day at 0.45mg ( 1.35mg week 1 then 1.8 week 2).

The AI maintains my estrogen at its levels prior to cycle (maybe a little higher), I use it to keep levels at normal - not lower than normal. Lower than normal is not good for bloods, joints, sex drive etc. Even at this dose I would say I hold slightly more water than off cycle. I don t know why but when I change to Prop for last 2 weeks of cycle this water goes. Last cycle I dropped 4kg of fat over the 6-weeks - body fat measured before and after using body density from underwater weighing, whilst gaining 6kg of muscle.

In terms of my training - believe it or not I train less on cycle. Off cycle I do cardio every week day prior to breakfast. On cycle as I am looking to maximise my strength gains I do minimal cardio (2-3 times a week and not fasted).

Some info for you

*The adipose tissue metabolism: role of testosterone and dehydroepiandrosterone.*

Author: De Pergola, G.

Citation: Int-j-obes-relat-metab-disord. Avenel, NJ : Nature Publishing Company. June 2000. v. 24 (suppl.2) p. S59-S63.

Abstract: *Testosterone (T) and dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA) are fat-reducing hormones, even though they exert this effect by different mechanisms. In particular, T inhibits lipid uptake and lipoprotein-lipase (LDL) activity in adipocytes, and stimulates lipolysis by increasing the number of lipolytic beta-adrenergic receptors*. An indirect sign of these effects is the decrease of adipocyte leptin production. Lastly, T inhibits differentiation of adipocyte precursor cells. Concerning DHEA, this hormone does not seen to have any of T effects; however, DHEA stimulates resting metabolic rate (RMR) and lipid oxidation, and enhances glucose disposal, by increasing the expression of GLUT-1 and GLUT-4 on fat cell plasma membrane. The insulin-like effect of DHEA would be associated to a decrease of plasma insulin concentrations and, thus, to an increase of the molar ratio between lipolytic hormones and insulin. Noteworthy, the fat-reducing effect of both T and DHEA seems to be more evident at the level of visceral adipose tissue.

Notes: Paper presented at the symposium on "Endocrinology of Obesity: Basic, Clinical and Therapeutic Aspects," September 1998, Venice.

*http://www.jci.org/articles/view/102558/pdf** -* shows testosterone has a direct impact on increasing the metabolism of fat and ketones - 1951 but they use a gram a week of test so very applicable to this conversation

The Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism Vol. 82, No. 10 3213-3220

Copyright © 1997 by The Endocrine Society

Original Studies

*Testosterone Treatment in Adolescents with Delayed Puberty: Changes in Body Composition, Protein, Fat, and Glucose Metabolism1*

Silva Arslanian and Chittiwat Suprasongsin

Division of Pediatric Endocrinology, Metabolism and Diabetes Mellitus, Children's Hospital, University of Pittsburgh, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania 15213

Address all correspondence and requests for reprints to: Silva Arslanian, Division of Endocrinology, Children's Hospital of Pittsburgh, 3705 Fifth Avenue at DeSoto Street, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania 15213. E-mail: [email protected]

Previously, we demonstrated decreased protein breakdown and insulin resistance in pubertal adolescents compared with prepubertal children. Puberty-related increases in sex steroids and/or GH could be potentially responsible. In the present study, the effects of 4 months of testosterone enanthate (50 mg im every 2 weeks) on body composition, protein, fat, and glucose metabolism and insulin sensitivity were evaluated in adolescents with delayed puberty. Body composition was assessed by H218O-dilution principle. Protein breakdown, oxidation, and synthesis were measured during primed constant infusion of [1-13C]leucine. Whole-body lipolysis was measured during primed constant infusion of [2H5]glycerol. Insulin action in suppressing proteolysis and lipolysis and stimulating glucose disposal was assessed during a stepwise hyperinsulinemic (10 and 40 mU•m2•min) euglycemic clamp. Fat and glucose oxidation rates were calculated from indirect calorimetry measurements.

After 4 months of testosterone treatment, height, weight, and fat free mass (FFM) increased and fat mass, percent body fat, plasma cholesterol, high- and low-density lipoproteins, and leptin levels decreased significantly. Whole-body proteolysis and protein oxidation were lower after testosterone treatment (proteolysis, 0.49 ± 0.03 vs. 0.54 ± 0.04 g•h•kg FFM, P = 0.032; oxidation, 0.05 ± 0.01 vs. 0.09 ± 0.01 g•h•kg FFM, P = 0.015). Protein synthesis was not different, and resting energy expenditure was not different. Total body lipolysis was not affected by testosterone treatment,* however, **fat oxidation was higher after testosterone* (pre-: 2.4 ± 0.7 vs. post-: 3.5 ± 0.7 µmol•kg•min, P = 0.031). During the 40 mU•m2•min hyperinsulinemia, insulin sensitivity of glucose metabolism was not affected with testosterone therapy (59.1 ± 8.8 vs. 57.1 ± 8.2 µmol•kg•min per µU/mL). However, metabolic clearance rate of insulin was higher posttestosterone (13.6 ± 1.1 vs. 16.7 ± 0.8 mL•kg•min, P = 0.004).

*In conclusion, after 4 months of low-dose testosterone treatment in adolescents with delayed puberty* 1) FFM increases and fat mass and leptin levels decrease; 2) postabsorptive proteolysis and protein oxidation decrease; *3) fat oxidation increases*; and 4) insulin sensitivity in glucose metabolism does not change, whereas insulin clearance increases. T*hese longitudinal observations are in agreement with our previous cross-sectional studies of puberty and demonstrate sparing of protein breakdown of approximately 1.2 g•kg•day FFM, wasting of fat mass, but no change in insulin sensitivity after short periods of low-dose testosterone supplementation.*

*Effects of testosterone on body composition, bone metabolism and serum lipid profile in middle-aged men: a meta-analysis*

Andrea M. Isidori*, Elisa Giannetta*, Emanuela A. Greco*, Daniele Gianfrilli*, Vincenzo Bonifacio*, Aldo Isidori*, Andrea Lenzi† and Andrea Fabbri‡

*Cattedra di Andrologia and †Endocrinologia Dipartimento di Fisiopatologia Medica, Università'La Sapienza', Rome, and ‡Cattedra di Endocrinologia, Dipartimento di Medicina Interna, Università Tor-Vergata, Rome, Italy

Correspondence to Dr Andrea Isidori, Dipartimento di Fisiopatologia Medica, Università di Roma 'La Sapienza', Viale del Policlinico 155, 00161 Roma, Italy. Tel.: +390649970540; Fax: +39064455345; E-mail: [email protected]

Summary

Objectives Ageing in men is associated with a gradual decline in serum testosterone levels and a concomitant loss of muscle mass, accumulation of central adiposity, impaired mobility and increased risk of bone fractures. Whether androgen treatment might be beneficial in these subjects is still under debate. We have carried out a systematic review of randomized controlled trials (RCTs) evaluating the effects of testosterone (T) administration to middle-aged and ageing men on body composition, muscle strength, bone density, markers of bone metabolism and serum lipid profile.

Data source A comprehensive search of all published randomized clinical trials was performed using the MEDLINE, Cochrane Library, EMBASE and Current Contents databases.

Review methods Guided by prespecified criteria, software-assisted data abstraction and quality assessed by two independent reviewers, 29 RCTs were found to be eligible. For each investigated variable, we reported the results of pooled estimates of testosterone treatment using the random effect model of meta-analysis. Heterogeneity, reproducibility and consistency of the findings across studies were explored using sensitivity and meta-regression analysis.

Results Overall, 1083 subjects were evaluated, 625 randomized to T, 427 to placebo and 31 to observation (control group). Weighted mean age was 64·5 years (range 49·9-77·6) and mean serum testosterone was 10·9 nmol/l (range 7·8-19). Testosterone treatment produced: (i) *a reduction of 1·6 kg (CI: 2·5-0·6) of total body fat, corresponding to −6·2%* (CI: 9·2-3·3) variation of initial body fat, (ii) an increase in fat free mass of 1·6 kg (CI: 0·6-2·6), corresponding to +2·7% (CI: 1·1-4·4) increase over baseline and (iii) no change in body weight. The effects of T on muscle strength were heterogeneous, showing a tendency towards improvement only at the leg/knee extension and handgrip of the dominant arm (pooled effect size = 0·3 standard mean difference (SMD), CI: −0·0 to 0·6). Testosterone improved bone mineral density (BMD) at the lumbar spine by +3·7% (CI: 1·0-6·4%) compared to placebo, but not at the femoral neck, and produced a consistent reduction in bone resorption markers (pooled effect size = −0·6 SMD, CI: −1·0 to −0·2). Testosterone also reduced total cholesterol by 0·23 mmol/l (CI: −0·37 to −0·10), especially in men with lower baseline T concentrations, with no change in low density lipoprotein (LDL)-cholesterol. A significant reduction of high density lipoprotein (HDL)-cholesterol was found only in studies with higher mean T-values at baseline (−0·085 mmol/l, CI: −0·017 to −0·003). Sensitivity and meta-regression analysis revealed that the dose/type of T used, in particular the possibility of aromatization, explained the heterogeneity in findings observed on bone density and HDL-cholesterol among studies.

Conclusion The present analysis provides an estimate of the average treatment effects of testosterone therapy in middle-aged men. Our findings are sufficiently strong to justify further interventional studies focused on alternative targets of androgenic treatment carrying more stringent clinical implications, in particular the cardiovascular, metabolic and neurological systems.

(Received 7 February 2005; returned for revision 7 March 2005; finally revised 19 March 2005; accepted 30 June 2005)


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## DogBoy (Aug 11, 2009)

Im not sure man,they are interesting for sure but the first one says that its more effective at reducing visceral fat,with nothing to back it up.

The second study is done in adolescent males with delayed puberty.We all know body composition changes when we mature and then settles down again after the initial surge of hormones.I'd like to see a study with healthy males with normal T levels,then administered T for X amount of weeks and re-check body composition.No dietary changes and in sedentary individuals.

The third study is in men of an average 64.5 years old,with low T levels,so body composition would change when T was administered.


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## Old but not out (Sep 8, 2009)

DogBoy said:


> Im not sure man,they are interesting for sure but the first one says that its more effective at reducing visceral fat,with nothing to back it up.
> 
> The second study is done in adolescent males with delayed puberty.We all know body composition changes when we mature and then settles down again after the initial surge of hormones.I'd like to see a study with healthy males with normal T levels,then administered T for X amount of weeks and re-check body composition.No dietary changes and in sedentary individuals.
> 
> The third study is in men of an average 64.5 years old,with low T levels,so body composition would change when T was administered.


What about that one - it actually states that T increases fat metabolism - I m sure with google you could find the whole study to read.

*The adipose tissue metabolism: role of testosterone and dehydroepiandrosterone.*

Author: De Pergola, G.

Citation: Int-j-obes-relat-metab-disord. Avenel, NJ : Nature Publishing Company. June 2000. v. 24 (suppl.2) p. S59-S63.

Abstract: *Testosterone (T) and dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA) are fat-reducing hormones, even though they exert this effect by different mechanisms. In particular, T inhibits lipid uptake and lipoprotein-lipase (LDL) activity in adipocytes, and stimulates lipolysis by increasing the number of lipolytic beta-adrenergic receptors.* An indirect sign of these effects is the decrease of adipocyte leptin production. Lastly, T inhibits differentiation of adipocyte precursor cells. Concerning DHEA, this hormone does not seen to have any of T effects; however, DHEA stimulates resting metabolic rate (RMR) and lipid oxidation, and enhances glucose disposal, by increasing the expression of GLUT-1 and GLUT-4 on fat cell plasma membrane. The insulin-like effect of DHEA would be associated to a decrease of plasma insulin concentrations and, thus, to an increase of the molar ratio between lipolytic hormones and insulin. Noteworthy, the fat-reducing effect of both T and DHEA seems to be more evident at the level of visceral adipose tissue.

Notes: Paper presented at the symposium on "Endocrinology of Obesity: Basic, Clinical and Therapeutic Aspects," September 1998, Venice.

But no problem mate - you are welcome to believe what you wish and I will maintain mine


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## ymir (Jun 4, 2007)

Tren, and anavar.

anavar reduces trunk fat specifically http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14578370

High dosages of testosterone seems recomp my body a whole lot, and I have harder time gaining fatmass now when I run 1300mg's of testo compared to 500-600mg's / week.


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## NickR24 (Sep 9, 2009)

I'd like to play true devils advocate here....

If fat loss (just fat loss) i.e. for a BB contest, id def say you can pay less attention to cardio and add things like test/tren/var whatever everyone else recommends.

BUT.

If you are training for fitness, as I am, but want BF loss also, cardio is the absolute key. I have lost 5 pounds of fat in 3 weeks, lost no muscle (altho I dont have much) and am fitter, healthier and leaner than ever, and thats all on lots of fasted cardio and green tea.

So IMO to summarise...if you just want fat loss, AAS and maybe slin/GH (not really know much on these meds) will def make a big big difference even with a pretty rubbish diet and lack of cardio.

If you want to drop fat, and get super fit for a run, or a fight (like me) cardio is your friend, and possibly anavar (currently researching into whether or not this is beneficial for me or not).


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## ymir (Jun 4, 2007)

NickR24 said:


> I'd like to play true devils advocate here....
> 
> If fat loss (just fat loss) i.e. for a BB contest, id def say you can pay less attention to cardio and add things like test/tren/var whatever everyone else recommends.
> 
> ...


cardio is always good, off season on season with or without AAS.


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## DogBoy (Aug 11, 2009)

Old but not out said:


> What about that one - it actually states that T increases fat metabolism - I m sure with google you could find the whole study to read.
> 
> *The adipose tissue metabolism: role of testosterone and dehydroepiandrosterone.*
> 
> ...


Sorry man,i never caught your edit yesterday.I have just googled it and can't find the whole study,just that excerpt. But again,this was presented at *"Endocrinology of Obesity: Basic, Clinical and Therapeutic Aspects,"* not healthy adult males.

I'd love to believe that T burns fat in healthy adult males! But in my own experience and that of my readings i can find no concrete proof...I think if it really burned fat to a noticeable extent there would be many papers citing it.


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## DogBoy (Aug 11, 2009)

NickR24 said:


> I'd like to play true devils advocate here....
> 
> If fat loss (just fat loss) i.e. for a BB contest, id def say you can pay less attention to cardio and add things like test/tren/var whatever everyone else recommends.
> 
> .


tell a dieting,carb deplted bb'er who's prepping for a show that....lol


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## defdaz (Nov 11, 2007)

Great thread guys, really interesting. Not sure it applies but the last three weeks I started on a low dose (don't laugh jw!) of 250mg test / 200 decs and 25mcg t3 and cleaned my diet up (a bit of cardio too!) and I've lost 19 pounds. Obviously the diet being tight is important but c'mon, gear definitely helps.

Another indication is by looking at racial differences - compare those with the highest average test (africans and afro-caribbeans) to those with the lowest levels (asians) and there's a definite correlation (only imo!) between the differences in lean body mass and fat levels... going to google if there's any research done on this.


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## defdaz (Nov 11, 2007)

JW will love this one:

http://care.diabetesjournals.org/content/28/2/429.full

"testosterone may improve insulin sensitivity both directly and through changes in body composition."


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## defdaz (Nov 11, 2007)

Interesting...

http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/jcem;jc.2006-0037v1

Conclusions: As there are no racial/ethnic differences in testosterone levels, normative ranges need not be adjusted by race/ethnicity for androgen deficiency diagnosis for men aged 30-79. Further investigation is needed to determine whether differences in DHT levels and DHT/testosterone ratio can help explain racial/ethnic variations in prostate cancer incidence, body composition, and bone mass.

Edit, another good one:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10442580

"Several indices of body composition are significantly correlated with plasma testosterone levels before and after correction for BMI and age. It is evident, however, that in addition to testosterone levels, the age-associated somatopause is also a determinant of the changes in body composition."

Somatopause (lowering gh output) - decentish article (no references and gross generalisations excluded!)

http://www.urotext.com/pages/Somatopause.html

Er.... "deficiency in GH/IGF-I is somewhat associated to prolonged life. ":

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16042366


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## DogBoy (Aug 11, 2009)

defdaz said:


> Great thread guys, really interesting. Not sure it applies but the last three weeks I started on a low dose (don't laugh jw!) of 250mg test / 200 decs and 25mcg t3 and cleaned my diet up (a bit of cardio too!) and I've lost 19 pounds. Obviously the diet being tight is important but c'mon, gear definitely helps.
> 
> Another indication is by looking at racial differences - compare those with the highest average test (africans and afro-caribbeans) to those with the lowest levels (asians) and there's a definite correlation (only imo!) between the differences in lean body mass and fat levels... going to google if there's any research done on this.





defdaz said:


> Interesting...
> 
> http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/jcem;jc.2006-0037v1
> 
> Conclusions: As there are no racial/ethnic differences in testosterone levels, normative ranges need not be adjusted by race/ethnicity for androgen deficiency diagnosis for men aged 30-79. Further investigation is needed to determine whether differences in DHT levels and DHT/testosterone ratio can help explain racial/ethnic variations in prostate cancer incidence, body composition, and bone mass.


LMAO,disproving your own theory...not seen that one before :tongue:

As for the 19lbs,how do you know that wouldn't have occurred if you hadn't cleaned up your diet and done cardio without AAS?

This is where people get confused....when someone cycles,all of a sudden they clean up their diet,train harder because of added agression/motivation from the gear and want to get the most from the cycle that they can....suprise,suprise their body composition changes and they lose a little weight and think it's down to steroids.


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## defdaz (Nov 11, 2007)

Yeah I did have a little giggle about that one mate lol! Didn't know it was DHT (assuming the research is accurate!) but there's definite racial differences - interesting (read: how many crap studies / lazy scientists there are [er, imo]!) how many studies only examine the compositional changes and not the underlying causes.

Read my post again dogboy, I said diet was important  No pizzas here mate lol.


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## adamdutton (May 13, 2008)

jw007 said:


> Your prob going to get the usual " no steroid burns fat, you need diet and cardio"


i hate this, i once had a post asking which is best for fat burning either sida cordifolia or yohimbine and i think it was the 1st post some said diet and cardio, i mean wtf that wasnt even on the list of options, do people think that even though we are on a bodybuilding forum we dont know about diet and cardio.


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## Cra16 (Jan 23, 2010)

It seems the steroids that do help burn fat do so by changing your insulin senstivity for the better.





>


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## DogBoy (Aug 11, 2009)

defdaz said:


> Obviously the diet being tight is important *but c'mon, gear definitely helps.*
> 
> .





defdaz said:


> Read my post again dogboy, I said diet was important  No pizzas here mate lol.


Yeah,you said diet is important...you also said ^^see bold^^



Cra16 said:


> It seems the steroids that do help burn fat do so by changing your insulin senstivity for the better.
> 
> http://javascript
> 
> http://javascript


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## Cra16 (Jan 23, 2010)

yes and you can't tone muscle, high intensity is a percentage of a one rep max etc etc

people don't use the exact terms for things but we all know what it means. There are very little studies on healthy males, infact why don't you put one up on healthy males showing anavar does not reduce BF?

Not having a go at all btw because your tecnically correct on both points........... it just flys over most peoples heads.


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## DogBoy (Aug 11, 2009)

Cra16 said:


> There are very little studies on healthy males, infact why don't you put one up on healthy males showing anavar does not reduce BF?
> 
> .


The same reason you don't post one showing that it does.....it doesn't exist


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## Old but not out (Sep 8, 2009)

DogBoy said:


> Sorry man,i never caught your edit yesterday.I have just googled it and can't find the whole study,just that excerpt. But again,this was presented at *"Endocrinology of Obesity: Basic, Clinical and Therapeutic Aspects,"* not healthy adult males.
> 
> I'd love to believe that T burns fat in healthy adult males! But in my own experience and that of my readings i can find no concrete proof...I think if it really burned fat to a noticeable extent there would be many papers citing it.


Ok I give up - believe what you wish - but do some reading - there is a deluge of evidence out there that shows that testosterone increases fat metabolism and also the more testosterone the greater the effect. This has been shown in healthy males, unhealthy males, older males etc etc. ONE OF TESTOSTERONES FUNCTIONS IN THE BODY IS TO INCREASE FAT METABOLISM.

A possible explanation why - in times of contentment and high calories and good hunting body fat is high and testosterone will be high - so we burn it because we can afford to. In famine, fast or poor hunting testosterone will be low - no testosterone - less muscle, less likely to burn the fat we desperately need to keep.

I think you have to be careful - you are trying to argue against something that is not disputed in the scientific literature


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## ymir (Jun 4, 2007)

Old but not out said:


> Ok I give up - believe what you wish - but do some reading - there is a deluge of evidence out there that shows that testosterone increases fat metabolism and also the more testosterone the greater the effect. This has been shown in healthy males, unhealthy males, older males etc etc. ONE OF TESTOSTERONES FUNCTIONS IN THE BODY IS TO INCREASE FAT METABOLISM.
> 
> A possible explanation why - in times of contentment and high calories and good hunting body fat is high and testosterone will be high - so we burn it because we can afford to. In famine, fast or poor hunting testosterone will be low - no testosterone - less muscle, less likely to burn the fat we desperately need to keep.
> 
> I think you have to be careful - you are trying to argue against something that is not disputed in the scientific literature


this is true, both from personal experience, my body composition has changed alot since I upped my "base" amount of test from 500-600mg's to 1200+ / week, I simply add alot less fat than before.

I have friends who used 3-4g's / week who will tell you the same.

Last 20 weeks I have shedded 22 pounds, and now gained 20 pounds in about 5 weeks, my waist is still 4 inches less than it was 20 weeks ago, I have only increased wais size 2 inches altho im only 2 pounds from my prediet weight.

my waist was 100cm, it went down to 85cm at my min weight during the diet, now it is 90cm's and only 2.2 pounds from my max weight, when my waist gets to big ill repeat this recomp, in contest shape my waist is about 80cm's

I contribute this to correct dieting, and quite high dosages of AAS that makes this body recomp possible.

So in 15 weeks i lost 22lb's, 15cm waist, and the last 5weeks I have gained 18lb's and gained 5cm waist, im very pleased with the results... 4-5 more years


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## Ricko (Jun 23, 2013)

defdaz said:


> Great thread guys, really interesting. Not sure it applies but the last three weeks I started on a low dose (don't laugh jw!) of 250mg test / 200 decs and 25mcg t3 and cleaned my diet up (a bit of cardio too!) and I've lost 19 pounds. Obviously the diet being tight is important but c'mon, gear definitely helps.
> 
> Another indication is by looking at racial differences - compare those with the highest average test (africans and afro-caribbeans) to those with the lowest levels (asians) and there's a definite correlation (only imo!) between the differences in lean body mass and fat levels... going to google if there's any research done on this.


Ok so my input, I'm heading to Thailand in November for a year and would like to lose belly fat before I go and while over there. My diet is cleaned up and I run fasted daily with HIIT included. I want that extra push so what would help me get the added fat loss? I'm 5,9 248lbs any 26 years old. Not sure on fat %. Happy with arms, legs, shoulders etc just HAVE to lose my belly! Someone suggested CLEN but I'm not at the % for that , any input?

Rick


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## monetwothree (Aug 29, 2013)

Kevin Trudeau, who gushed during ads for his 2007 book, The Weight Loss Cure "They" Don't Want You to Know About, that taking hCG left him able to eat whatever he wants and still stay thin. "I'm talking real food! Mashed potatoes loaded with butter and cream!" he raved. After the book came out, Green Valley's visitors inundated the weight loss clinic with requests for hCG, so much so that Coombs decided to try it for herself. "We always have our eyes and ears out for what's newly happening and isn't harmful to one's health," says Coombs, who says she lost 38 pounds on the program and was inspired to offer it to clientele.

The medical director at Green Valley is Gordon Reynolds, M.D., a gynecologist with a specialty in endocrinology. Dr. Reynolds claims that hCG is different from other weight loss treatments because it gets rid of hard-to-lose fat first-"visceral fat, intra-abdominal fat, the fat at the back of the arms," he says. The program requires eating fattening foods for two days, theoretically to kick-start your metabolism; then patients begin injections of hCG and a spartan diet of 500 calories a day for three weeks. Ordinarily, a patient on such a diet would go into starvation mode and their muscle would begin to break down, but Dr. Reynolds claims hCG accesses the deep reserves of fat, giving you the energy to withstand it.

A protocol developed by British doctor A.T.W. Simeons using hCG as a cure for obesity became popular in the 1970s, but studies debunked it: Double-blind studies showed that the injections do not aid weight loss, redistribute fat, stave off hunger or promote a feeling of well-being. The Federal Trade Commission forced the Simeon Management Corporation to halt its deceptive advertising, and the hCG diet all but faded away as a miracle weight loss cure until Trudeau resurrected it.

IMO one could spend many many months reading both sides of this debate and in the end i thin k every body reacts differently (to ma degree anyways)and will respond differently to whatever therapy they choose, so maybe try it and if it doesn't work don't do it if it does work do it...

I wont be close minded nor will i be a foolish follower: monetwothree 2013


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## DEADLY (Nov 4, 2013)

Old but not out said:


> No it is not just this - fat is lost in terms of fat mass as well as percentage. Plus steroids have been shown to have the effect of increasing fat metabolism and also have the ability to act well back in the lineage of cell development and preventing fat cells developing - even encouraging them them to differentiate into muscle cells instead
> 
> "Testosterone stimulates Pluripotent stem cells to enter the muscle cell lineage, developing into satellite cells and myoblasts rather than adipocyte cells. This allows for reciprocal changes in both body fat and muscle mass (Herbst and Bhasin 2004, Sinha-Hikim, Taylor, et al. 2004)."


**** me and they call me the doctor ! LOL !!!!! it' be faunny to read this stoned ! haha


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## DEADLY (Nov 4, 2013)

d4ead said:


> i lean up a lot when ever i go on a blast no matter what im useing. have to say leanest ive been has been on tren, masttest combo.
> 
> Im not talking pose on a stage lean but at least not embaresed to take my top of on the beach slim.


Dude, I hate being a nasty **** but really ? Pose on a stage and not being embarrased to take your top off at the beach are two worlds apart. WTF ???? Not being embarrased to take your top off was your leanest ? BTW I think you look great on that pic mate. Perhaps your beach standards are too high ...LOL !!!


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## IGotTekkers (Jun 6, 2012)

Cra16 said:


> as does anavar


Not true mate. Its fat burning propertys are no different to anyother.


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## d4ead (Nov 3, 2008)

Yes that was my attempt at most humour


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## d4ead (Nov 3, 2008)

I must have written that about 3 years ago. I really have become a fat **** now


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## thinkinht (Jan 5, 2014)

Tren without a doubt and if you're already on cycle mast or primo should dry you up nicely.


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