# Is a lean bulk possible?



## Mclovin147 (Nov 11, 2013)

12 months lifting and eating, strength gains good, size gains have just about started showing (in my eyes anyway, actually feel bigger) I.e. more depth in chest etc

My bodyfat% has barely budged over that time...To my understanding, to create an environment in which muscle gain can occur, you MUST be in a calorie surplus (Given no AAS is involved.)

Calorie surplus meaning fat gain is inevitable right?

I can't help but think that perhaps I have seriously hindered my progress by not quite eating enough, like I could have put more muscle on if I had ate enough to gain more fat.

But the 10KG gain has to be something right?

Should soldier on on this 'lean gain' or bump those calories up and possibly see much more gains d'ya reckon?


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## Rytiny4 (Apr 14, 2014)

Do you count your calories/macros? If your gaining roughly 1lb a week then I'd be happy and stick at that. Up your cals slightly when the weight loss slows. Defiantly better to go by mirror progress. Chasing scale numbers can cause fat gain


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## ironman1985bcn (Mar 3, 2010)

Lean Bulk = Juice (tren, winny lover )

natty lean bulk = impossible. (unless geneticaly gifted)


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## sauceman (Jan 22, 2014)

If you haven't changed BF% but you've definitely put on muscle, then you've put on fat too. As you get more muscle the BF% is then reduced due to it becoming less of the percentage of mass you are. See what I'm saying?


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## saxondale (Nov 11, 2012)

Mclovin147 said:


> 12 months lifting and eating, strength gains good, size gains have just about started showing (in my eyes anyway, actually feel bigger) I.e. more depth in chest etc
> 
> My bodyfat% has barely budged over that time...To my understanding, to create an environment in which muscle gain can occur, you MUST be in a calorie surplus (Given no AAS is involved.)
> 
> ...


Last 3 months since mynbreak my measurements are all up yet my waist and back fat are down, yes it's possible, how have I done it? No idea.


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## Mclovin147 (Nov 11, 2013)

@sauceman yeah that does make sense actually!

I have put a little bit on, I.e. Abs are slightly less visible, but everywhere else has no change at all.

Just making sure I'm not missing out on gains lol

Hopefully it not a problem, and I've just hit roughly the exact amount of calories to gain muscle but not too much fat at a good rate.

Edit: in that 12 month period I've counted calories for about a month...bad I know, but whatever I'm doing thus far has worked...I am currently counting calories now by the way


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## sauceman (Jan 22, 2014)

Mclovin147 said:


> @sauceman yeah that does make sense actually!
> 
> I have put a little bit on, I.e. Abs are slightly less visible, but everywhere else has no change at all.
> 
> ...


Tbh mate as long as you're not getting fat and your still gaining, then you've hit the nail on the head.


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## Mclovin147 (Nov 11, 2013)

sauceman said:


> Tbh mate as long as you're not getting fat and your still gaining, then you've hit the nail on the head.


Well just to be sure....I'm about to dominate packet of custard creams, 2 Cadbury chocolate yoghurts and if those penguin bars don't stop looking at me funny il give them what for too...

Love being an ectomorph lol


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## PortsladeMan (Mar 20, 2014)

Yeah this is why I'm going to start gear in winter. Plan on getting under 10% body-fat then cycling 8 weeks on 8 weeks off. Lean bulk on gear and try to maintain whilst off, doing lots of strength training to try to maintain strength gains.

Cannot be f**ked with this natty lark anymore. Effort.


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## nWo (Mar 25, 2014)

ironman1985bcn said:


> Lean Bulk = Juice (tren, winny lover )
> 
> natty lean bulk = impossible. (unless geneticaly gifted)


That's the short and simple answer, really. Natty lean bulk = eating at maintenance and hoping you build some muscle.


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## NoGutsNoGloryy (Jan 7, 2013)

PortsladeMan said:


> Yeah this is why I'm going to start gear in winter. Plan on getting under 10% body-fat then cycling 8 weeks on 8 weeks off. Lean bulk on gear and try to maintain whilst off, doing lots of strength training to try to maintain strength gains.
> 
> Cannot be f**ked with this natty lark anymore. Effort.


Strength training after cycle is a horrible idea. You'll just lose mass doing low reps.


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## nWo (Mar 25, 2014)

PortsladeMan said:


> Cannot be f**ked with this natty lark anymore. Effort.


Same mate, been gaining really well for the past year and 9 months but the gains are of course starting to slow down a bit now. Hoping to compete in the future and my ideal physique is a bit beyond what's naturally possible for most, so I figured why wait? Not financially in the position to be cycling for a few months yet, so I picked up some Ostarine to run until then and hopefully get some nice gains. Deloaded for a week then fell on my shoulder and tweaked it lol, so still not back in training yet, I have however been running the Ostarine anyway to maintain muscle until I can train again, mind could be playing tricks but I swear I've gained some more mass since I started taking it despite not having touched a weight. Hopefully gear improves my shítty recovery "genetics".


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## PortsladeMan (Mar 20, 2014)

NoGutsNoGloryy said:


> Strength training after cycle is a horrible idea. You'll just lose mass doing low reps.


That's true, I train 6 days a week, almost 10 hours, so I'd be looking to do both really, on and off cycle. I do each body-part twice a week. One low rep, one higher rep. A bit like Layne-Norton's protocol, it has both muscle and strength building benefits. I think a lot of people struggle to get to the gym that often, easier for me as a student.


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## PortsladeMan (Mar 20, 2014)

I said:


> Same mate' date=' been gaining really well for the past year and 9 months but the gains are of course starting to slow down a bit now. Hoping to compete in the future and my ideal physique is a bit beyond what's naturally possible for most, so I figured why wait? Not financially in the position to be cycling for a few months yet, so I picked up some Ostarine to run until then and hopefully get some nice gains. Deloaded for a week then fell on my shoulder and tweaked it lol, so still not back in training yet, I have however been running the Ostarine anyway to maintain muscle until I can train again, mind could be playing tricks but I swear I've gained some more mass since I started taking it despite not having touched a weight. Hopefully gear improves my shítty recovery "genetics".[/quote']
> 
> I could go on a lot into why I am starting gear but would be too long. In short I want an ideal physique by 21. I could make nutrition my life and train for 10 years but I have other much more important things to do. If I am in the job I want to do I won't have the time to train properly after 21, just hopefully maintain my size and strength. The good thing about UK-M is how you can talk about it with straight answers. On the mongy American boards they think you are some ignorant f**k if you are under 200lb 10bf and younger than 25. It's just like over there everyone preaches how Accutane will make you suicidal and most of them don't even know someone who has done it. Unbelievable how so many people can make such claims. Bit off-topic that.


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## dann19900 (Dec 29, 2012)

Mclovin147 said:


> 12 months lifting and eating, strength gains good, size gains have just about started showing (in my eyes anyway, actually feel bigger) I.e. more depth in chest etc
> 
> My bodyfat% has barely budged over that time...To my understanding, to create an environment in which muscle gain can occur, you MUST be in a calorie surplus (Given no AAS is involved.)
> 
> ...


Well firstly if you're 20% body fat you could of gained 2 kgs of fat,8kgs of muscle and remained the same body fat%

There's plenty of people who know a lot more than me who would disagree with me but I can't see how you 'must' be in a calorie surplus to gain muscle, far too simplified in my eyes.

Even if thats true though you could be in a calorie surplus without gaining fat, just a small one.

I'd personally try eating more because I like to experiment but I expect your way is best. I doubt you'd put on much more muscle than 8-10 kgs in that time frame with more calories, you said yourself 'the 10 kg has to be somewhere'.


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## dann19900 (Dec 29, 2012)

PortsladeMan said:


> I could go on a lot into why I am starting gear but would be too long. In short I want an ideal physique by 21. I could make nutrition my life and train for 10 years but I have other much more important things to do. If I am in the job I want to do I won't have the time to train properly after 21, just hopefully maintain my size and strength. The good thing about UK-M is how you can talk about it with straight answers. On the mongy American boards they think you are some ignorant f**k if you are under 200lb 10bf and younger than 25. It's just like over there everyone preaches how Accutane will make you suicidal and most of them don't even know someone who has done it. Unbelievable how so many people can make such claims. Bit off-topic that.


Agree with all this lol, loads of people talk like you're a demon if you get on gear before 16 stone. I'm more than happy to admit I see gear as a short cut to where I want to be, lifes about taking short cuts to me and I'd rather eat a slightly worse diet with gear than a perfect diet and gain slower lol


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## PortsladeMan (Mar 20, 2014)

dann19900 said:


> Agree with all this lol, loads of people talk like you're a demon if you get on gear before 16 stone. I'm more than happy to admit I see gear as a short cut to where I want to be, lifes about taking short cuts to me and I'd rather eat a slightly worse diet with gear than a perfect diet and gain slower lol


Agreed, all these obsessives can f**k off. Ok if it's your passion and you want it to be your life then great. I have other deadlines to meet and career aspirations to fulfil in my life.

Anyway, PART of the reason of this is to attract girls for most of us. Fact. Why would I want to look my best for birds when I may well already be married!


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## nWo (Mar 25, 2014)

PortsladeMan said:


> I could go on a lot into why I am starting gear but would be too long. In short I want an ideal physique by 21. I could make nutrition my life and train for 10 years but I have other much more important things to do. If I am in the job I want to do I won't have the time to train properly after 21, just hopefully maintain my size and strength. The good thing about UK-M is how you can talk about it with straight answers. On the mongy American boards they think you are some ignorant f**k if you are under 200lb 10bf and younger than 25. It's just like over there everyone preaches how Accutane will make you suicidal and most of them don't even know someone who has done it. Unbelievable how so many people can make such claims. Bit off-topic that.


Fair enough. As long as people know what they're doing and they're not super-young then just let them get on with it I say.

I have actually been on prescribed accutane twice in my late teens and early 20s. Wouldn't quite say it made me suicidal but I was so depressed on it. That said, I know it won't have the same effect on everyone. I'm also of the belief that it has such an effect on people, guys in particular, because it fúcks with your hormones. I'm 25 now and my test levels are only just in normal range which I believe is down to accutane, very likely be on TRT by the time I'm 30. So in saying that, if you're altering your hormones and got plenty of exogenous test or something else running through your system anyway then I don't think accutane on-cycle would have many psychological effects, doesn't seem to be any gear users complaining of depression and extreme lethargy that is all too common in non gear users on prescribed stuff.


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## PortsladeMan (Mar 20, 2014)

> Fair enough. As long as people know what they're doing and they're not super-young then just let them get on with it I say.
> 
> I have actually been on prescribed accutane twice in my late teens and early 20s. Wouldn't quite say it made me suicidal but I was so depressed on it. That said, I know it won't have the same effect on everyone. I'm also of the belief that it has such an effect on people, guys in particular, because it fúcks with your hormones. I'm 25 now and my test levels are only just in normal range, very likely be on TRT by the time I'm 30. So in saying that, if you're altering your hormones and got plenty of exogenous test or something else running through your system anyway then I don't think accutane on-cycle would have many psychological effects, doesn't seem to be any gear users complaining of depression and extreme lethargy that is all too common in non gear users on prescribed stuff.


Yeah my test levels are high, would explain some rapid gains and my horrible back acne. I got prescribed it and all last year!

Are your test levels f**ked from Accutane?!?!

I plan on running Accutane whenever on cycle in the future.


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## dann19900 (Dec 29, 2012)

PortsladeMan said:


> Agreed, all these obsessives can f**k off. Ok if it's your passion and you want it to be your life then great. I have other deadlines to meet and career aspirations to fulfil in my life.
> 
> Anyway, PART of the reason of this is to attract girls for most of us. Fact. Why would I want to look my best for birds when I may well already be married!


haha yeah I'm the opposite to normal though, most of my mates train to get fit birds. I pull a fit bird first, like the 'ahh how you pull that' comments but after a while it does my head in and my 2-3 times a week down the gym becomes 5-6 lol


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## nWo (Mar 25, 2014)

PortsladeMan said:


> Yeah my test levels are high, would explain some rapid gains and my horrible back acne. I got prescribed it and all last year!
> 
> Are your test levels f**ked from Accutane?!?!
> 
> I plan on running Accutane whenever on cycle in the future.


That's my theory on why, could never say for definite tbh but I can just tell that my hormones were all over the place whilst on it and I've never been quite the same since. Used to be the life and soul before taking it but I'm not even half as energetic these days. But yeah, like I said, gear will also mess with your hormones so taking accutane whilst taking gear should be a non-issue in that respect.


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## PortsladeMan (Mar 20, 2014)

I said:


> That's my theory on why' date=' could never say for definite tbh but I can just tell that my hormones were all over the place whilst on it and I've never been quite the same since. Used to be the life and soul before taking it but I'm not even half as energetic these days. But yeah, like I said, gear will also mess with your hormones so taking accutane whilst taking gear should be a non-issue in that respect.[/quote']
> 
> Yeah I'm just going to accept it. What first cycle have you got in mind?
> 
> ...


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## Mclovin147 (Nov 11, 2013)

Jumping on the gear early is not as taboo as every one makes out.

It actually makes a hell of a lot more sense....Why wait until you have reached your genetic potential to take steroids, when as soon as you come off you will lose your gains because you have surpassed your genetic capabilities?

In theory, to stay above genetic potential you would need to stay constantly on a cruise.

So you may as well start before genetic potential to get the most out of your money and time IMO

Why wait 4 years to have people ' mirin' when they could be doing it next year!!?

Edit: Hijack away mate, my questions been answered.


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## doubtofalex (Apr 1, 2009)

i have definitely lean bulked natty, just a slowww process for myself approx 1-1.5lbs LBM/month


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## PortsladeMan (Mar 20, 2014)

Haha, cool. I will be putting some pics on once I've lost some weight over the summer before my cycle and pictures after my cycle, may look into competing in teen comps. Watch this space!


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## nWo (Mar 25, 2014)

PortsladeMan said:


> Yeah I'm just going to accept it. What first cycle have you got in mind?
> 
> 'PM' me if we are 'hi-jacking' this convo.
> 
> I'm a bit of a noob on all this...


I'm just gonna start simple with some prohormones, I'm not into hiding things from those I live with and I'm not ready to tell them I'm injecting steroids yet, so I'll just chuck some PHs in my supplement cupboard and no questions will be asked :laugh: As I said, with the way my test levels are gradually getting lower I'll undoubtedly be on TRT soon, then I can give it the old "Well I'm injecting steroids anyway so I might as well experiment with other stuff" hehe. So for now I'll be running ostarine at 15mg a day which would probably average about 1lb of lean mass per week. When it comes to PH cycling I'll go with something common for my first proper cycle, like Superdrol+Tren+Stano, seems to produce really good results for most people, anywhere between 10-20lbs of lean mass over 6 weeks is pretty common.

What about you, going straight on the injectables? Don't worry about hi-jacking mate, as the OP said the questions have been answered several times over


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## PortsladeMan (Mar 20, 2014)

> I'm just gonna start simple with some prohormones, I'm not into hiding things from those I live with and I'm not ready to tell them I'm injecting steroids yet, so I'll just chuck some PHs in my supplement cupboard and no questions will be asked :laugh: As I said, with the way my test levels are gradually getting lower I'll undoubtedly be on TRT soon, then I can give it the old "Well I'm injecting steroids anyway so I might as well experiment with other stuff" hehe. So for now I'll be running ostarine at 15mg a day which would probably average about 1lb of lean mass per week. When it comes to PH cycling I'll go with something common for my first proper cycle, like Superdrol+Tren+Stano, seems to produce really good results for most people, anywhere between 10-20lbs of lean mass over 6 weeks is pretty common.
> 
> Yeah mate, I've been researching a lot and will do so extensively over summer when I have more free time. I will also get some first hand opinions from a doctor and friends who use what I will be using. I plan on going straight onto the stronger steroids and will run test at same dose with Accutane. People will think I am ignorant when I post my cycle on here but I really don't care lol, I'm aware of the risks, and will have done an judged cost-benefit analysis/risk-assessment on everything. The PCT is what I need to research most as I want to know why I am putting more compounds into my body.
> 
> What about you, going straight on the injectables? Don't worry about hi-jacking mate, as the OP said the questions have been answered several times over


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## BennyC (Mar 18, 2010)

I've always, unintentionally, gone full dreamer bulk after a cutting phase. Then find my fat gain disturbing and tend to try and lean bulk from there. I can drop 10KG quite easily and still be in low teens bf%.

Trimming up at the moment and with the aid of MFP app plan to try a 'lean-er' bulk than normal. First cycle planned for August and whilst I obviously want to maximise my gains I'm not going to be using this as an excuse to undo my last 10-12 weeks worth of work and get fat.

Some fat gain is inevitable but come the point your body is already storing surplus energy/calories as fat then surely shoveling even more in with the false hope of building more muscle is just silly?


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