# The end of the supplement industry is nigh



## predatorN (Mar 16, 2009)

EXTREMELY IMPORTANT: Do you want to be able to use supplements without the nanny state telling you what to do?

Did you know the government plans to stop you from using any supplement at all other than those derived from food or minerals/vitamins? In other words to take away 99% of what works. If this bothers you PLEASE sign our petition which we ask you share with your friends.

The future of dietary supplements is at stake. We would not say this if the threat was not serious.

http://twitition.com/tiig7/


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## Wevans2303 (Feb 18, 2010)

That's fine, i'll just stick to steroids, my multi vit and fish oil ty.


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## eezy1 (Dec 14, 2010)

wtf. could you explain more? whys the gov doing that


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## kingdale (Nov 2, 2010)

weed to bulk and mkat to cut!


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## Readyandwaiting (Mar 20, 2011)

Typical. They tryna patent other vitamins and minerals and alter the molecular structure and charge ridiculous amounts for it


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## Readyandwaiting (Mar 20, 2011)

It's fcuked up.

Shyt like this needs to stop now


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## Little stu (Oct 26, 2011)

This is the us goverment not British I feel sorry for Americans who try to take supps to get healthy and cant highest obeisety rate in world they should stop supersizeing food in stead of supps


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## digitalis (Sep 13, 2011)

In all fairness there does need to be more stringent controls on STRONG pro hormones being banged out by supplement shops who don't give advice or sell the relvant PCT products.


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## Readyandwaiting (Mar 20, 2011)

digitalis said:


> In all fairness there does need to be more stringent controls on STRONG pro hormones being banged out by supplement shops who don't give advice or sell the relvant PCT products.


Like op says do you want the nanny state to continue? People gotta take responsibility and stop expecting for the system warn them on everything and rely upon them for everything


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## digitalis (Sep 13, 2011)

Tell that to the parents of kids with progesterone related lactating nips from PH's.


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## Little stu (Oct 26, 2011)

They hav health warnings on every thing these days cigs booze and supps


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## Readyandwaiting (Mar 20, 2011)

digitalis said:


> Tell that to the parents of kids with progesterone related lactating nips from PH's.


yea but where do the restrictions stop? I mean do we just ban everything? Or put restrictions upon it? It's ridiculous, it takes away the responsibility that the person is supposed to have for themselves as an individual. I am all for legit information being out there for people to research themselves etc... If heroin was legal would you just start injecting outright? It's stupid I can make my own decisions.

If that's the case about the kids then the parents should do a better job of being more involved with their children and educating them etc... not just letting them run wild and buy and take w/e shyt they want.


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## guvnor82 (Oct 23, 2011)

digitalis said:


> Tell that to the parents of kids with progesterone related lactating nips from PH's.


tough sh1t they should of done there research b4 taking stuff.


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## Hendrix (Sep 16, 2009)

If they are successful in doing this, I will leave the country, no question. I am sick of being told what I can and can't do in this country, this just the final straw. I am tired of scare tactics they use on the public, you can't go past a billboard without being told you will die if you don't do this or that. This is all about control and I hate it.


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## Timecop (Jan 17, 2012)

So to confirm: is this just in the US or here in good old UK too??

Confusion :-s


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## guvnor82 (Oct 23, 2011)

plenty of other thing that should be banned first.

smoking.

x factor

fat girl in hot pants


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## guvnor82 (Oct 23, 2011)

hendrix said:


> If they are successful in doing this, I will leave the country, no question. I am sick of being told what I can and can't do in this country, this just the final straw. I am tired of scare tactics they use on the public, you can't go past a billboard without being told you will die if you don't do this or that. This is all about control and I hate it.


its like living with my misses


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## guvnor82 (Oct 23, 2011)

what was saying then

creatine

fat burners

ph

natty test booster

glutamine

pre workout drinks


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## goonerton (Sep 7, 2009)

It would help if you gave us a link to an article or some info that outlines these "reforms" that are supposedly being made...

You are asking people to sign your petition without furnishing them with the full facts or any facts as far as i can tell!


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## guvnor82 (Oct 23, 2011)

won't happen anyway heard this on another form few years ago. how much is supplement industry worth? there not gonna want 2 loose out on all that tax money


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## predatorN (Mar 16, 2009)

Read pages 47-51.

http://www.mhra.gov.uk/home/groups/is-lic/documents/publication/con007544.pdf


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## Timecop (Jan 17, 2012)

There was a similar thing back in 2010 aimed towards Dietary Supplements but as far as I know (and correct me if I'm wrong) NOTHING happened??


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## expletive (Sep 12, 2011)

That document was revised in *2007*, 5 years ago??

Why the big panic now?


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## Timecop (Jan 17, 2012)

@predatornutrition- this is referring to what is and what is not classed as a MEDICINAL food product!!!

So I take it with this in mind that your sports supplements company:

PREDATOR NUTRITION

Will be preparing to shut up shop and call it a day then??


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## Timecop (Jan 17, 2012)

This is about what is and what is not Classed as a medicinal food!!

NOT about what should be or will be or is going to be banned, it is basically saying what is constituted as a medicinal food and what should be ( if not a medicinal food) regulated under the food regulations laws.

PANIC OVER!!

And IF this was to ever happen then I take it that your company:

PREDATOR NUTRITION

Will be/would be shutting up shop and getting ready to call it a day??


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## predatorN (Mar 16, 2009)

Some retailers we supply got hit for selling

Tribulus

Milk thistle

Some random stuff I never heard of

Test boosters

All their fat burners

Timecop - we have a phone call with the mhra tomorrow and took legal advice today as we got wind this is going to be a major offensive against our industry.


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## goonerton (Sep 7, 2009)

predatorN said:


> Read pages 47-51.
> 
> http://www.mhra.gov.uk/home/groups/is-lic/documents/publication/con007544.pdf


At a brief glance I welcome what it seems the government are trying to do here(only brief scan mind you).

It seems they are trying to tighten up the supplement market and make advertisers who claim their products work in a medicinal fashion actually register them as medicines in which case i suppose the regulations on medicines are tighter than food?

Sounds like a much needed attempt to try and stop sup companies from being able to make all manner of spurious claims as to what their products can do without having any credible evidence to back it...

These are my first thoughts on it maybe ive missed something? A stop to false advertising possibly?


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## predatorN (Mar 16, 2009)

goonerton said:


> At a brief glance I welcome what it seems the government are trying to do here(only brief scan mind you).
> 
> It seems they are trying to tighten up the supplement market and make advertisers who claim their products work in a medicinal fashion actually register them as medicines in which case i suppose the regulations on medicines are tighter than food?
> 
> ...


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## expletive (Sep 12, 2011)

Predator Nutrition

Please respond to my question above

The document you referenced is from 2007 so it is not current, so why the panic?


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## Guest (Feb 22, 2012)

predatorN said:


> How about the end of any Preworkout other than those containing caffeine alone?


Where does it say that?


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## goonerton (Sep 7, 2009)

predatorN said:


> Could you elaborate on that?
> 
> What part of the proposed legislation on from the gov pages you directed us to would mean this?
> 
> ...


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## Timecop (Jan 17, 2012)

So where does that leave companies like Holland & Barrett???

And wouldn't something this big that would/will affect the entire health and sports industry which is worth absolutely millions be all over the net, on the radio, in the news, on tv etc....???


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## predatorN (Mar 16, 2009)

Timecop - Holland Barrett are affected by it. You ever seen Jack3d in there? Ask yourself why they would not sell the best selling supplement for years.

Expletive - This document was referred to us by retailers who got hit. They said it was something that has always applied and now will be enforced rigorously.

Dave - Read the section on definition of a medicinal product. We are calling them about this tomorrow but if you note it would impact all stims (the local retailers we know had their shelves cleared of all supps containing 1,3, synephrine, ephedrine tabs, the lot. Told they were in breach of medicines regulations which do not permit their sale.


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

I don't like this legislation because it arbitrarily bans any herbal supplements that haven't been on sale for thirty years or more, and cuts out some very effective more recently discovered herbals.

For other supp's it screws the sellers because while those supp's can still be sold, the seller will now have to purchase a licence for around a million £ to sell... or pay 50k minimum per supplement they wish to sell off the list. This is the cost of quality control measures but in many cases these QC measures are simply unnecessary, and will actually worsen the effectiveness of many supp's because the maximum allowed dosage strength will be hugely reduced.

This legislation will restrict most of the decent supps to only being available via a pharmacist, which will both reduce availability and increase the costs. This legislation has been in the works for years but finally hits the UK later this year - and it's a pile of sh1t to be honest. Is good for big pharma though, just not everyone else especially the independent and innovative retailers.


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

expletive said:


> Predator Nutrition
> 
> Please respond to my question above
> 
> The document you referenced is from 2007 so it is not current, so why the panic?


The legislation is only coming into full legal force this year - the directive first came about in 2004 I think but has taken this long to be implemented in the UK.

France follow these rules and even stuff like creatine is banned there under them.


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## predatorN (Mar 16, 2009)

It does seem to be the case that they will enforce this now.

Basically all the interesting supplements will go and we will be left with:

Protein, amino acids, salts, vitamins, carbs, and some food derived stuff such as Resveratrol. Everything else pretty much will be hit including I think all stims excluding caffeine and green tea and virtually all test boosters and ph's. Reading that doc in fact it is clear that anything which works to modify physical function they term a medicine.

As Dtlv says, this already applies in places like France, Norway etc so I am unsure why people here think it is an overreacting.


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## expletive (Sep 12, 2011)

Well if thats the case thats pretty crap

If it is being enforced surely there is very little that can be done


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## goonerton (Sep 7, 2009)

From the gov website

"Medicines Legislation

3. In broad terms, when classifying a product, the Agency looks at the way the product is

presented (especially any claims) and at its function, that is, its effects (when administered)

on human physiology. If a product satisfies either limb of the definition it is likely to be

classified as a medicinal product. There is more information about the ways in which we

apply the definition to individual products in the main text of Guidance Note 8

"4. Obviously, not many products aimed at sports people claim to "treat or prevent

disease" but if there are claims which imply that the product will "correct, restore or modify"

physiological function then the consumer will take the product "with a view" to doing just that.

Examples of the type of claims might be:

"burns fat"

"increases metabolic rate"

"stimulates circulation"

"suppresses appetite"

"mimics insulin"

"acts like human growth hormone"

All of these and other claims like them are unacceptable for unlicensed products."

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

See this is the thing , generally things that have actually actually been proven to do things like "burn fat" or "increase metabolic rate" etc come with very real side effects and health risks...like T3 and Clen etc...

So surely any products that can actually achieve these claims should be licensed? What are we saying , that we don't want products that do actually "mimic insulin" to be licensed?

And this bit from the legislation surely everyone should welcome

"*advertisers must hold documentary evidence to prove all claims including non-medicinal *

*
claims, whether direct or implied, that are capable of objective substantiation*."

Who would disagree with that?

And I'm still not getting why creatine would be banned though? Unless being advertised alongside unsubstantiated claims.


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## GeorgeUK-M (Oct 19, 2011)

The title should be changed to:

THE NEW WORLD ORDER IS NIGH..


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## olliel (Jun 16, 2011)

signed but to be fair the supplement industry are very good at changing the wording and or marketing of the products to beat a ban


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## predatorN (Mar 16, 2009)

We believe that individual choice to self administer supplements as they do in the US is the way forward.

Those who are still doubtful you may ask yourself why a massive retailer such as discount supps does not stock any 1,3 products any longer. Guessing they already got targeted as it is a bit irrational not to!


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## Timecop (Jan 17, 2012)

Reading the MHRA website there not going to ban them they are just going to be sorted into what is classed as MEDICINAL and therefore needs to be/must be sold in a pharmacy as it will be classed as a medicine and what can stay/will stay on suppliers shelves and be classed as a food group.


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## m118 (Feb 4, 2011)

If they ban creatine... i will not be happy at all. of course, there's little that can be done about unless 10,000s of people sign an official petition


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## TaintedSoul (May 16, 2007)

Yeah I think for a petition to be affective you have to go to the streets, appeal to parliament, get thousands signed up etc.. etc..

I just don't see them giving a sh!t about the body building/fitness world!! fat people get assistance.. fit people must pay!!


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## Lockon (Nov 21, 2011)

Damn, big shock but as long as we can get our Whey, carbs and creatine is it really a big miss? I only take caffeine supplement and that's it.


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## sam2012 (Mar 28, 2009)

I'm sick of being told what I can and can't take. Democracy! It's alright providing you do as your told! :cursing: Hopefully there will be some loop hole around this


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## kingdale (Nov 2, 2010)

BADASSMASS said:


> I'm sick of being told what I can and can't take. Democracy! It's alright providing you do as your told! :cursing: Hopefully there will be some loop hole around this


i agree people should be able to take what ever they want. there body noone elses!


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## JS95 (Aug 29, 2010)

Time to start dealing Berocca :lol:


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

goonerton said:


> From the gov website
> 
> "Medicines Legislation
> 
> ...


absolutely SPOT on!!!

This is the BEST thing to EVER happen to the supplement industry, as they will be held to an appropriate standard- IF the product can PROVE it does what is claimed (this applies to medicines too) then GREAT!!! licenced stores can sell it.

If there is NO proof (and this is true for MOST supplements) then this saves people being bamboozled by FAKE science.. and MISS-SELLING..

FINALLY appropriate action by the government!!!

BTW- if PH actually work, becuase they are NOT PHs but Designer Steroids, then they should be treated like any other steroids. Doesnt mean you cant get them, just means they need to PROVE whats in the BOX...

:thumb:


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## BBWarehouse (Mar 31, 2008)

I would advise everyone write to their local MP and MEP to say you're against the restrictions on your freedom. We've already done so, and we've been advising all consumers to do so for quite some time now.

This is YOUR freedom at stake, as well as thousands of jobs in one of the FEW growth areas of the UK economy. We're in a recession, and this is what the government want to prioritise? Seriously?

Your freedom. Your choice. Only you can save it. Please write to your local MP and complain.


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## JS95 (Aug 29, 2010)

If you think about this as being on a much larger scale, losing alot of these products could put many of the sponsors on here under financial struggle due to limited sale of products. Then no longer sponsoring such informative forums as uk-m, hence the forum has no income. All in all it affects alot more people than intended.


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

BBWarehouse said:


> I would advise everyone write to their local MP and MEP to say you're against the restrictions on your freedom. We've already done so, and we've been advising all consumers to do so for quite some time now.
> 
> This is YOUR freedom at stake, as well as thousands of jobs in one of the FEW growth areas of the UK economy. We're in a recession, and this is what the government want to prioritise? Seriously?
> 
> Your freedom. Your choice. Only you can save it. Please write to your local MP and complain.


No FREEDOM involved. Its what I've been saying since I joined this site- EVERY US sourced product says "claims not substantiated by the FDA" or similar.

Fact is most claims by supplement companies would not pass the substantiation required of double blind tests, in peer reviewed journals..... so many claims are from "studies" where the data is not analysed by the appropriate control variable, or the number of subjects is under 30 (so not able to be extrapolated to the wider population statistically). I could go on..

If a product makes medical like claims for affecting your metabolism, they should be able to be substantiated, and then they would be medicines and not supplments..

Supplements are FOOD....


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## BBWarehouse (Mar 31, 2008)

ausbuilt said:


> This is the BEST thing to EVER happen to the supplement industry, as they will be held to an appropriate standard- IF the product can PROVE it does what is claimed (this applies to medicines too) then GREAT!!! licenced stores can sell it.
> 
> If there is NO proof (and this is true for MOST supplements) then this saves people being bamboozled by FAKE science.. and MISS-SELLING..
> 
> ...


That's not what it means.

It means if you can prove it works (forskolin, creatine, beta alanine etc.) .......then it becomes a medicine and can only be sold by a pharmacist with license as it's classified as a drug.

How much do you think you'll pay for creatine then? How much would 500g of creatine mono cost given that Viagra is sold for £7 *a tablet *to the NHS? Well, let's put it another way...how many people here can go into Boots and buy *any* performance enhancing drug? Anyone?

If this goes ahead, your consumer choice is frankly....f*cked. You will only be able to buy what you want from a drug dealer.


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## BBWarehouse (Mar 31, 2008)

ausbuilt said:


> No FREEDOM involved. Its what I've been saying since I joined this site- EVERY US sourced product says "claims not substantiated by the FDA" or similar.


They say that on the box so they don't have to be classified as drugs - I have posted countless studies on here personally that can be found on pubmed, proving things like Citrulline Malate, Creatine, Beta Alanine, Forskolin, ATD and countless other supplements factually work beyond the slightest doubt.

As my reply above - if you can prove it works, it will be effectively banned. You'll be stuck buying it from a drug dealer (who's margins will be much higher than a legal online store that price competes).


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

Jimmysteve95 said:


> If you think about this as being on a much larger scale, losing alot of these products could put many of the sponsors on here under financial struggle due to limited sale of products. Then no longer sponsoring such informative forums as uk-m, hence the forum has no income. All in all it affects alot more people than intended.


Fact- ONLY STEROIDS, DNP, T3/T4, CLEN, ECA, DNP and other DRUGS work... DRUGS are what they are DRUGS..

supplements are FOOD...

When the sponsors selling many products with NO substantiated basis for their claims lose income, then the sponsors will change- to websites SELLING DRUGS.. that WORK.. which is the case on many USA based boards.

At least those sponsors have morals... they sell stuff PROVEN to work.. while the supplement industry makes all sorts of CLAIMS..

well.. if the $hit works, PROVE it.. and you can sell it....


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## sam2012 (Mar 28, 2009)

ausbuilt said:


> absolutely SPOT on!!!
> 
> This is the BEST thing to EVER happen to the supplement industry, as they will be held to an appropriate standard- IF the product can PROVE it does what is claimed (this applies to medicines too) then GREAT!!! licenced stores can sell it.
> 
> ...


Not really because no supplement company will have the license to sell them and I doubt the local pharmacy is going to sell you a tub of No-Xplode.

So what ends up happening is we have no supplements other than the basics such as protein and companies selling the products potentially go under and lose their business


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

BBWarehouse said:


> They say that on the box so they don't have to be classified as drugs - I have posted countless studies on here personally that can be found on pubmed, proving things like Citrulline Malate, Creatine, Beta Alanine, Forskolin, ATD and countless other supplements factually work beyond the slightest doubt.
> 
> As my reply above - if you can prove it works, it will be effectively banned. You'll be stuck buying it from a drug dealer (who's margins will be much higher than a legal online store that price competes).


Not true. Steroids work, and you don't have to buy from a "dealer" and they are LEGAL to buy.


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

BADASSMASS said:


> Not really because no supplement company will have the license to sell them and I doubt the local pharmacy is going to sell you a tub of No-Xplode.
> 
> So what ends up happening is we have no supplements other than the basics such as protein and companies selling the products potentially go under and lose their business


NOXplode etc... are not even a scratch on the effectiveness of things like:

http://www.naturevet.com.au/prodetails.php?pid=108

THAT works..

PROVEN.


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## Beans (Sep 1, 2008)

I hate this country..


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## BBWarehouse (Mar 31, 2008)

ausbuilt said:


> well.. if the $hit works, PROVE it.. and you can sell it....


We have many, many times. For example, these are studies showing how our Excel and Scivation Xtend work:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19997002

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12145119

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20499249 - this is a shows the combination of BCAA's and Cit Malate when used together is even better than when used individually

As above, many, many more studies have been posted by us on D-Aspartic Acid, Beta Alanine, Forskolin, ATD etc....and all of them can be found here:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/

If you want the government to make decisions for you, and to be forced into paying rip off prices to drug dealers operating illegally....then don't write to your MP. If you'd like to support your freedom of choice, and want low prices, then please support the supplements industry. I can *guarantee* you that if any of the document previously posted got implemented, not only would it costs *thousands* of jobs, from hard working people, but you the consumer would either:

1) Not be allowed to buy lots of effective products

2) Or only be able to buy them illegally from a drug dealer who would charge far, far, far, far more


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## BBWarehouse (Mar 31, 2008)

ausbuilt said:


> Not true. Steroids work, and you don't have to buy from a "dealer" and they are LEGAL to buy.


And illegal to sell.....you can't walk into a store and buy it. Anyone selling them risks a prison sentence.


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## TaintedSoul (May 16, 2007)

ausbuilt said:


> NOXplode etc... are not even a scratch on the effectiveness of things like:
> 
> http://www.naturevet.com.au/prodetails.php?pid=108
> 
> ...


Sounds like a grear product? Ever tried it?


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

BBWarehouse said:


> And illegal to sell.....you can't walk into a store and buy it. Anyone selling them risks a prison sentence.


yes but buying is 100% legal.

I can go to a pharmacy in Athens or Belgrade, or Bangkok and buy pharma gear and bring it back.. I can order it online, I can ring them up and they send it..

and its legal, and works as it says on the box...

the supplement industry here is just being held to account to for FALSE claims...

LOVE IT...


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

TaintedSoul said:


> Sounds like a grear product? Ever tried it?


20 years ago, when i was a young competitive BB, used to do 3x2ml shots up each thigh before heavy squat sessions.. FANTASTIC.. but burns as there is 5% BA


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## Mr_Morocco (May 28, 2011)

I like that, these companys who make claims like "CRAZY STRENGTH, CRAZY WEIGHTLOSS" etc etc yet have no proof their product works, now maybe we'll see some real supplements come out if these laws are passed.


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## sam2012 (Mar 28, 2009)

ausbuilt said:


> NOXplode etc... are not even a scratch on the effectiveness of things like:
> 
> http://www.naturevet.com.au/prodetails.php?pid=108
> 
> ...


Maybe not, but I don't want to go jabbing whatever the fvck that is. I'm quite happy taking No-Xplode because it works and does what I want it to, therefore I'm not interested if theres an underground alternative which is stronger and potentially more dangerous.

But even if the company proves that it works, then from my understanding they wouldn't be able to sell it because it would be classed as a medicine and therefore I'd have to go to a dealer for it anyway.


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## sam2012 (Mar 28, 2009)

Afghan said:


> I like that, these companys who make claims like "CRAZY STRENGTH, CRAZY WEIGHTLOSS" etc etc yet have no proof their product works, now maybe we'll see some real supplements come out if these laws are passed.


No you wouldn't because from m understanding it would be classed as a medicine so supplement companies couldn't sell it


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## big_jim_87 (Jul 9, 2009)

Lol so this is a save pro hormones thread?

Lol fvck off! Ph is shyt aas and both should be banned!


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## BBWarehouse (Mar 31, 2008)

ausbuilt said:


> yes but buying is 100% legal.
> 
> I can go to a pharmacy in Athens or Belgrade, or Bangkok and buy pharma gear and bring it back.. I can order it online, I can ring them up and they send it..


Given shipping alone from Thailand would be £60+, how much would 1kg of mono cost? Mono, since it can be proven to work, would theoretically be classified as a drug. Right now we sell 1kg of mono for £14.99 with free shipping.....this measure would instantly see that price go up many, many, many times over. The price of every supplement would go up massively - and that cost would be paid by consumers. Even *protein powder* would go up in price since retailers would have to charge more on protein powder to make up for selling less of other items. The consumer would lose out, through less choice and higher prices.

We just proved claims in the previous post, via 3 separate clinical studies.

This is *your freedom*, the *prices you pay* and *thousands* of jobs. If you honestly think the average overweight government minister knows more about what you should and shouldn't be allowed to buy than the average fitness enthusiast, you have more faith in the State than we do.


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## Beans (Sep 1, 2008)

http://www.examiner.com/wellness-in-atlanta/new-illegal-attempt-on-banning-nutritional-supplements-by-obama-administration Nothing to do with the UK market, but i found it interesting.


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

BBWarehouse said:


> Given shipping alone from Thailand would be £60+, how much would 1kg of mono cost? Mono, since it can be proven to work, would theoretically be classified as a drug. Right now we sell 1kg of mono for £14.99 with free shipping.....this measure would instantly see that price go up many, many, many times over. The price of every supplement would go up massively - and that cost would be paid by consumers. Even *protein powder* would go up in price since retailers would have to charge more on protein powder to make up for selling less of other items. The consumer would lose out, through less choice and higher prices.
> 
> We just proved claims in the previous post, via 3 separate clinical studies.
> 
> This is *your freedom*, the *prices you pay* and *thousands* of jobs. If you honestly think the average overweight government minister knows more about what you should and shouldn't be allowed to buy than the average fitness enthusiast, you have more faith in the State than we do.


yes mono works great.. with insulin & aas... otherwise... waste of money...

but fact is, insulin and AAS give 99% of what you want..

I dont waste money on "supplements that dont work. I buy AAS and Peps ("slin & GH or IGF-1) and protein powder. The rest? pointless against AAS + slin..


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## James s (Sep 18, 2010)

ausbuilt said:


> NOXplode etc... are not even a scratch on the effectiveness of things like:
> 
> http://www.naturevet.com.au/prodetails.php?pid=108
> 
> ...


VET ONLY PRODUCT - Vasodilator to improve blood flow and minimise tying-up/cramping, fatigue and muscle damage in *Horses and Dogs*


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

James s said:


> VET ONLY PRODUCT - Vasodilator to improve blood flow and minimise tying-up/cramping, fatigue and muscle damage in *Horses and Dogs*


and works in people. This is not species specific, same with test, deca.. equipoise (get it, equipoise for equines.. or HORSES)...

GH is specicies specific.


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## Magic Torch (May 30, 2005)

Aus have you got any pics of you in contest shape? U look great now would be awesome to see u in your prime!


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

Magic Torch said:


> Aus have you got any pics of you in contest shape? U look great now would be awesome to see u in your prime!


LOL you sound like my wife... her comment was why dont i "look like that anymore" early in relationship got me back into training. Back in those days (early 90s) no digital pics- so will scan some next time i go back to Oz (left a heap of stuff at my grans place when moved to UK)


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## CPH (Jul 25, 2011)

I would bet 90 percent of supps wouldn't be affected as they would have to have a medicinal effect ie work! Most supps, herbal crap etc dont.

The ones that do work I agree shouldn't be on general sale as pro hormone as there is no warning on these to say what could happen taking them. That means people who don't read forums taking risks they are unaware of, morally very wrong. All the things mentioned left after legislation are all you need to build muscle without stimming yourself out of your mind affecting health.


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## Timecop (Jan 17, 2012)

On speaking to a buddy of mine this is apparently the REAL reason behind the new:

BSN

NO-XPLODE 2.0

To get around this order/legislation.


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## goonerton (Sep 7, 2009)

BBWarehouse said:


> We have many, many times. For example, these are studies showing how our Excel and Scivation Xtend work:
> 
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19997002
> 
> ...


See this is the thing here, I just looked at the two top pubmed studies that you say prove your product works...

Conclusion "BCAA supplementation *may* attenuate muscle soreness, but it does not ameliorate eccentric exercise-induced decrements in muscle function or increases in reputed blood markers of muscle damage, when consumed before exercise and for 3 d after an eccentric exercise bout.

2nd one,

Conclusion "The changes in muscle metabolism produced by CM treatment indicate that CM* may *promote aerobic energy production."

Notice the word "MAY", if the conclusion states "may" how does it prove anything works

Now look at the conclusion from a pubmed study on Anavar

"Oxandrolone administration is effective in promoting dose-dependent gains in body weight and BCM in HIV-infected men with weight loss."

OK it relates to people with HIV, but see the difference , no use of the word may...

How can you claim to have proved something by citing a pubmed study that concludes something "may" have a certain effect?


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## Ken Hutchinson (May 29, 2009)

Wasted £1000,00's over the years on $hite that did not work, my best gains came when i started out in the early 80's, just used food and some dessicated liver tablets, all the other $hite i fell for later on just did not work, i for one welcome this, it will save kids from wasting their money on snake oil.


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## Ahal84 (Jun 2, 2010)

goonerton said:


> See this is the thing here, I just looked at the two top pubmed studies that you say prove your product works...
> 
> Conclusion "BCAA supplementation *may* attenuate muscle soreness, but it does not ameliorate eccentric exercise-induced decrements in muscle function or increases in reputed blood markers of muscle damage, when consumed before exercise and for 3 d after an eccentric exercise bout.
> 
> ...


X2


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## predatorN (Mar 16, 2009)

http://blog.predatornutrition.com/2012/02/02/bcaas-and-glutamine-useful-even-when-protein-intake-is-high/

For those arguing against BCAA intakes.

Anyway, for the steroid users out there are you really so naive as to think that is not going to be targeted even more with the Olympics due and potential legislation banning personal use?

As this is a supplement thread I am not sure what the point of you guys posting here is. One thing we can say for sure is that if this board loses sponsors it would be unable to operate.

As BBW have pointed out this is about a lot more than what people here seem to think notably:

1. Infringement of the right to choose how we live

2. The loss in time of pretty much anything that works. That does not mean they will become licensed and you can buy. It means they will not be sold at all, by anyone, as most licensing decisions are rejected and for stuff like 1,3 Dimethylamylamine it will be gone. As a bunch of steroid users have come on you may be interested to know the guy was told he cannot sell milk thistle, hawthorn berry, etc etc.


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## Ken Hutchinson (May 29, 2009)

The supplement industry does not do it's self any favours with some of it's ad's, just look at the berocca multi vit advert, it's you but on a really good day, it makes out that you feel like you would be on coke or speed, bouncing about all over the place, really happy and buzzing your t!ts off, when it fact you do not feel any different, so if that does not do what it says on the tin, why should we believe anything else they sell will work.


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## Mr Brown (Mar 20, 2007)

Damn! Time to grab a few bottles of superdrol before the bubble bursts.


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## El Toro Mr UK98 (Nov 11, 2011)

So the supp industry would go underground then like aas, immagin pro chem selling jack 3d lol


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## madmuscles (Mar 10, 2011)

( Stands up and puts hand up) "Hi, my name's Madmuscles...and i'm a supplementholic....

Seriously i agree that many companies use scandelous tactics and and scrupleous ad campaigns but no one is forcing anyone to buy anything from them and in this day and age with the internet you can research, find the truth and avoid being conned, This is a direct attack on us by unfit stuffy idiots who couldn't care less about health or fitness so doesn't affect them, try and ban or put restrictions on port,brandy, wine, champagne, pims, cigars and all men social clubs and see the revolt that follows the selfish swine, sick and told of being told what to do and how to live, this wasn't a dictatership the last time i checked and i thought we were against oppressive and suppressive regimes yet here we are inflicting one on ourselves? sheeeeeiiit.

Looks like it's time to stock up on canned goods, weapons and take to the streets the "zombie apocalypse" is here

Finally a chance to wear my outfit.


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## sam2012 (Mar 28, 2009)

Ken Hutchinson said:


> The supplement industry does not do it's self any favours with some of it's ad's, just look at the berocca multi vit advert, it's you but on a really good day, it makes out that you feel like you would be on coke or speed, bouncing about all over the place, really happy and buzzing your t!ts off, when it fact you do not feel any different, so if that does not do what it says on the tin, why should we believe anything else they sell will work.


All industries advertise in this way not just the supplement industry. No company is going to create an advert that tells you their supplement / new drink / new chocolate will make you feel like crap


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## predatorN (Mar 16, 2009)

Important Message: We just got off the phone to the MHRA and we need to comply with their requests which will involve us going through our entire product catalogue and delisting many. They have signalled their intent to prosecute companies who fail to comply and told us they have a list of retailers to go through.

Products targeted will include those containing 1,3 Dimethylamylamine and Synephrine which will mean the loss of most fat burners and preworkouts.

We will be able to fulfil all orders that come in but once products are delisted it will not be possible to buy them. We are taking legal advice on this but for now we must comply with the law even if we disagree with it.


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## madmuscles (Mar 10, 2011)

Predator have they given you a deadline?


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## Ken Hutchinson (May 29, 2009)

BADASSMASS said:


> All industries advertise in this way not just the supplement industry. No company is going to create an advert that tells you their supplement / new drink / new chocolate will make you feel like crap


So what you are saying is that they mislead you, or tell lies for want of a better word, it is deceitful.


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## Mr_Morocco (May 28, 2011)

predatorN said:


> http://blog.predatornutrition.com/2012/02/02/bcaas-and-glutamine-useful-even-when-protein-intake-is-high/
> 
> For those arguing against BCAA intakes.
> 
> ...


This forum has a big enough community to keep it going so dont make silly statements like that, only Lorian can make a statement like that.


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## lxm (Jul 26, 2011)

This has been on the cards for a long time... I recall this being news a year ago saying most supplements would be getting removed because of the need for licencing etc ?

Same thing ?


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## predatorN (Mar 16, 2009)

This covers more than herbal ingredients. For instance something such as synephrine and 1,3 are not herbs but hit as are some food based stuff. We have a lot of work to do not so can't really go through in detail but check our Facebook page for details if needed.


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## 2004mark (Oct 26, 2013)

Ken Hutchinson said:


> Wasted £1000,00's over the years on $hite that did not work, my best gains came when i started out in the early 80's, just used food and some dessicated liver tablets, all the other $hite i fell for later on just did not work, i for one welcome this, it will save kids from wasting their money on snake oil.


So true. I'm by no means advanced, but makes me laugh when I see people with, quite frankly, a sh1te physique spending 100s on supps a month that don't make one bit of difference. I don't use PWO supps as I'm sure people just confuse a slightly jittery feeling with that of more focus and energy... but whatever, I know I train just as hard as those in my gym who constantly bang on about how much superpump they've just taken.



Afghan said:


> This forum has a big enough community to keep it going so dont make silly statements like that, only Lorian can make a statement like that.


I'm sure I've seen Lorian say before that this board does not rely on sponsors... so yeah, rather a presumptuousness statement.

However, having said all that, I'm sure the supps industry won't suffer. There will always be people willing to throw their money at the next well marketed product, as they never look as far as the ingredient list anyway.


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## sam2012 (Mar 28, 2009)

Ken Hutchinson said:


> So what you are saying is that they mislead you, or tell lies for want of a better word, it is deceitful.


It depends. A lot of supplements do work so they are hardly telling lies.

Anyway deceitful advertising is all around you. Mcdonalds adverts are extremely misleading. Made with 100% British beef & fresh veg :confused1: What they forget to tell you its full of salt, sugar and preservatives. No advertising campaign will ever highlight the negatives of a product, after all they are trying to sell you something.

Another example would be cinit bang, or for that matter, any other cleaning product advertised on the T.V. In the case of cinit bang they dip a coin into whatever fluid and when they pull it out, its spotless. Lets face it that doesn't happen. That's not to say the product doesn't work to some degree but it doesn't make the penny spotless in a matter of seconds. All advertising is done in this way, to make you think you can't live without a product or make you feel that you need it.

The problem is that under this legislation if a supplement is proven to work it becomes medicinal, and therefore only a pharmacy can sell it. The thing is pharmacies won't sell them, so we end up with no supplements. I think we have the right to make an informed decision, and because of that I feel I have the right to buy these supplements. Why should I be told what I can and can't take if it isn't illegal?

Not only that it forces the supplement industry underground and means that people have to obtain supplements such as the stims etc from dealers etc

I agree that tighter restrictions should be placed on products which could potentially interact with other prescription drug medications, but I don't agree that I should be told I can't take something by some bloke in a suit


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## TaintedSoul (May 16, 2007)

Fine make supplement that aid in maintaining a fit physique... but make it illegal to be obese!!!! Surely that's far worse than using supplements that do or don't work.

Hell sweeteners are sold left right and centre and we all know aspartame is bad for you!!!


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## fitdog (May 30, 2010)

Its a bad day for the supplement industry today, gutted! Many jobs going to be lost over the comming months!


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## Ste7n (Jul 12, 2011)

goonerton said:


> At a brief glance I welcome what it seems the government are trying to do here(only brief scan mind you).
> 
> It seems they are trying to tighten up the supplement market and make advertisers who claim their products work in a medicinal fashion actually register them as medicines in which case i suppose the regulations on medicines are tighter than food?
> 
> ...


I also think that's good, will stop people getting ripped off with supplements that don't actually do what they say they do, and i agree on the false advertising, it annoys me these starter packs supplement companies sell with tribulus and milk thistle which has been proven many times to be a load of b***l*cks...


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

As you can imagine with me being sponsored by one of the best supplement shops online Cardiff Sports Nutrition when I saw this today I was both shocked and concerned as the title say "the end of the supplement industry is nigh"

it is not what it is being made out to be though, it will mainly effect PH's alot of supplement brands such as Gaspari, MusclePharm, Muscletech, bodytronice etc have been complient for some time the same as many online supplement shops so no need to worry guys........the end is not nigh


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## predatorN (Mar 16, 2009)

Gaspari for one is on the radar - Check the label of their fat burner.

BSN another you may think is mainstream have several products hit.


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## predatorN (Mar 16, 2009)

Pscarb - I will be sending Marc, owner of Cardiff an email this afternoon. Once he receives that I am sure he will advise you but apart from Boditronics all three of the US brands mentioned are specifically listed.


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

predatorN said:


> Pscarb - I will be sending Marc, owner of Cardiff an email this afternoon. Once he receives that I am sure he will advise you but apart from Boditronics all three of the US brands mentioned are specifically listed.


So all there products are effected? As you clearly say in this thread we will be pretty much be left with protein and vitamins? I understand a few popular fat burners like dexaprine will be effected along with many PH's but to say it is the end to the supplement industry is a little dramatic don't you think Pred?


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## infernal0988 (Jun 16, 2011)

pretty soon UK will be like Norway everything here in Norway is banned steams , PH, PWO supps of any kind except some forms of creatin , anything not approved by the food and drug administration is banned and classed as PED`s


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## fitdog (May 30, 2010)

http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/13372


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## predatorN (Mar 16, 2009)

Pscarb - Just emailed Cardiff Sports if you wish to contact them.


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

My understanding of the issues with the legislation are this:

It says that all supplements making medical claims (burns fat, increases metabolic rate, increases protein synthesis, increases a hormone etc) must state the clinical evidence to back the claim up, and that any supplement that cannot provide clinical evidence must not make any such claims.

Most people am sure would agree the above is nothing but a good thing.

However, it then states that if a substance does have the clinical evidence to prove it works, the substance becomes banned as an OTC supplement and must be re-branded as a medicine - and can then only be sold by a company with a licence to sell medicines.

Ironically, this then means that ineffective and unproven supplements, once the wording on the packaging is changed to not make definitive claims about physiological effects, can then still be sold OTC, whilst the effective supp's cannot.

The other interesting thing is how they hit herbal supplements and herbal extracts used in blends. Only extracts that have been commercially available for 30 years worldwide and for 15 years in Europe can continue to be sold. Herbals more recently made commercially available cannot be sold OTC, irrelevant of whether they are effective or not clinically.

A second issue with the herbals is the quality control issue. To equalise the quality of products, all supplements of the same type will have to use the same strength extract. Since there is always variation in strength when herbals are processed, the only way to equalise it in a consistent way is to set a maximum dosage that is extremely low, as you cannot make a low strength extract higher than it is, but can make the strength of a potent extract lower.

The problem here is that while this will equalise the strength of supp's, which is perhaps a good thing in theory, the effective maximum legal dosing in products for almost all things will be so far below the clinically effective level that it will render many supplements totally pointless and ineffective at the sold dose.

There are some supplements exempt from this categorisation if they also fall into the definition as a food.

Will this cause the end of the supplement industry? No.

Will it diminish the range of effective OTC products in this country? Yes.


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## goonerton (Sep 7, 2009)

Dtlv74 said:


> My understanding of the issues with the legislation are this:
> 
> It says that all supplements making medical claims (burns fat, increases metabolic rate, increases protein synthesis, increases a hormone etc) must state the clinical evidence to back the claim up, and that any supplement that cannot provide clinical evidence must not make any such claims.
> 
> ...


Are you sure it means all that can be clinically proven will be banned from OTC or will need a license ? As there are plenty of medicines that are licensed but sold OTC i would imagine?

Also do you have any links to gov legislation that talks about herbal compounds that you talk about here?


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

goonerton said:


> Are you sure it means all that can be clinically proven will be banned from OTC or will need a license ? As there are plenty of medicines that are licensed but sold OTC i would imagine?
> 
> Also do you have any links to gov legislation that talks about herbal compounds that you talk about here?


There are two categories of licence - a medicinal one and a registration for non medicinal herbs. If a supplement manufacturer (not the retailer) is able to obtain a licence or a registration for a herb then it can still be sold under licence OTC, but only at the very low doses.

There is no list of banned substances, only a list of positive substances which are licensed or registered. The positive list is not publicly available as a single list (not that I can find on the government site anyway) but as a series of separate applications. This however is a link to a list about a year old which showed all the products registered at that point - http://www.anh-europe.org/files/110210-UK-THR-LIST_ANH-INTL_F.pdf

Technically the lack of a banned list means that something un licensed or registered can continue to be sold until government catches up with it, and this is what is happening here to PN's supplier I think - it looks like government has started hitting some of their products.


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## secondhandsoul (Feb 6, 2012)

Well then time to go to the darkside. No way im gonna bust a nut (so to speak) trying to get a prohormones and a fat burner when it'll be easier to get anavar and eca. -.-


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## Rick89 (Feb 27, 2009)

ausbuilt said:


> NOXplode etc... are not even a scratch on the effectiveness of things like:
> 
> http://www.naturevet.com.au/prodetails.php?pid=108
> 
> ...


That sh!t looks crazy

I can even imagine the pump that would give, 100% more blood supplied to the heart in a fckin horse......hardcore

Was this used much in bodybuilding circles at all??


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## TaintedSoul (May 16, 2007)

Reclassify it all and then tax it and they happy. They probably want to get as much as they can from the $90+billion the health is worth now!! As it is you only really pay VAT on capsules and raw creatine and few others things. Surprised Whey hasn't been taxed long ago for some obscure reason!!!


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## adpolice (Oct 27, 2011)

So now i get it,you can buy and use alcohol and cigarretes because they are PROVEN to cause serious health problems,so as long as it is PROVEN it is ok...


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## kingdale (Nov 2, 2010)

adpolice said:


> So now i get it,you can buy and use alcohol and cigarretes because they are PROVEN to cause serious health problems,so as long as it is PROVEN it is ok...


yeah i dont understand this country at all. legalise everything tax it then people can make up there own minds


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## adpolice (Oct 27, 2011)

In general i understand that most of these supps are useless but i don't need anyone to make the decision for me..It is just the beginning..


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## BBWarehouse (Mar 31, 2008)

In ancient times people used to give you a beating when they wanted to control you.....now something just gets voted in without anyone noticing (or in the case of many MP's, anyone knowing what it is):






This is your freedom of choice, your wallet....and to be honest the State telling consumer's they're too stupid to make their own decisions. I'm not stupid, consumers aren't stupid....take a stand if you believe in being treated like an adult.


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## Ragingagain (Sep 4, 2010)

digitalis said:


> In all fairness there does need to be more stringent controls on STRONG pro hormones being banged out by supplement shops who don't give advice or sell the relvant PCT products.


ure right there mate, a lot of supps are actually worser than some gear on ur liver also, as for ph`s glad i never knew of them, rather do juice. i mean if its from the stor 99% of people dont research it cos its prob safe,....


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## m118 (Feb 4, 2011)

andy gibbs said:


> ure right there mate, a lot of supps are actually *worser than some gear on ur liver also*, as for ph`s glad i never knew of them, rather do juice. i mean if its from the stor 99% of people dont research it cos its prob safe,....


such as.... or are you specifically only referring to AAS?


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## predatorN (Mar 16, 2009)

Definitive statement on the current position:

http://blog.predatornutrition.com/2012/02/24/predator-nutrition-official-statement-on-mhra-clampdown/


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## Breda (May 2, 2011)

Rick89 said:


> That sh!t looks crazy
> 
> I can even imagine the pump that would give, 100% more blood supplied to the heart in a fckin horse......hardcore
> 
> Was this used much in bodybuilding circles at all??


I want to know if anybody has used the stuff


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## Rick89 (Feb 27, 2009)

Breda said:


> I want to know if anybody has used the stuff


Ausbuilt mentioned he used it and read a few american lads loving it and reporting extremely fast recovery rates when used


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## predatorN (Mar 16, 2009)

simmonds87 said:


> Monster Supplements are advising their customers that this is just rumours...


Really?

Why don't you ask Monster Supplements to invite the MHRA in to their warehouse or send them a product on that list from their site and ask them if they are in compliance or not?


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## predatorN (Mar 16, 2009)

Those saying whey etc are safe I spoke to someone at the NHS today who said no major sports nutrition brand's products are suitable for sale in the NHS as they do not meet criteria. He said that the companies who provide such items to the NHS are massive Multi billion dollar concerns. What makes you think the government will not one day determine that it is to be licensed given that:

A) Protein has a medicinal function as shown by numerous studies indicating it can help build muscle, and suppress appetite which meets th second limb of their definition of a medicine.

B) Given the fact NHS suppliers food products are governed by medicines regulations, why should protein products be sold unregulated without oversight?

C) When a middle class mother looks at her teenage son's protein and realises it is not regulated and could contain steroids!!!, don't you think this is something that the government may act on?

I also spoke today to someone who works at the treasury who confirmed some non-regulatory issues were being looked at and that, for their own dealings with the health department they are, in his opinion nazis with a consistent stance of never being happy.

In his experience this has meant:

1. Arguing for higher taxes on cigs and alcohol

2. Paying people to make reports to support their view (funded y your taxes).

3. Restrictions on cigarette and alcohol advertising.

Once they get what they want do you think they stop? No, he said to justify their budget and roles they are more or less compelled to show results which is why if we take smoking as an example:

Cigarettes sold openly and advertised without restrictions

Sold openly and tv adverts stopped

Print adverts stopped

Sold behind warning labels

Sold without any advertising (no f1 cars, or sports tournaments sponsored by cig firms)

Sold with messages showing they can kill

Sold with graphics showing diseased organs

Their latest wheeze is to restrict their visibility and to remove ALL brand markings such as marlboro's colour scheme etc. Oh and push for more taxes.

If you think this isn't gonna happen you are living in cloud cuckoo land.


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## hilly (Jan 19, 2008)

predatorN said:


> Those saying whey etc are safe I spoke to someone at the NHS today who said no major sports nutrition brand's products are suitable for sale in the NHS as they do not meet criteria. He said that the companies who provide such items to the NHS are massive Multi billion dollar concerns. What makes you think the government will not one day determine that it is to be licensed given that:
> 
> A) Protein has a medicinal function as shown by numerous studies indicating it can help build muscle, and suppress appetite which meets th second limb of their definition of a medicine.
> 
> ...


I think they would be hard pushed to ban whey under the same reasinibgs they have used to ban these current supps tho surely.

It's a food bi product of food. You A and B could stand for chicken almost technically.


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

predatorN said:


> Really?
> 
> Why don't you ask Monster Supplements to invite the MHRA in to their warehouse or send them a product on that list from their site and ask them if they are in compliance or not?


Did you invite them in Pred?

So Pred by your posts all supplements are not safe so what time line are we talking about before they ban all supplements? From what you are saying all supplement brands should be panicking as there company and living is about to end and they will be on the dole que? So why is it the 3 supplement brand owners I have spoken to do not seem to share your panick yes they have to change some formulas but are not looking into training in another skill to make ends meet?


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## m118 (Feb 4, 2011)

Pscarb said:


> Did you invite them in Pred?
> 
> So Pred by your posts all supplements are not safe so what time line are we talking about before they ban all supplements? From what you are saying all supplement brands should be panicking as there company and living is about to end and they will be on the dole que? So why is it the *3 supplement brand* owners I have spoken to do not seem to share your panick yes they have to change some formulas but are not looking into training in another skill to make ends meet?


where these contacted by the MHRA?


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## Morphball (Jul 21, 2011)

predatorN said:


> Those saying whey etc are safe I spoke to someone at the NHS today who said no major sports nutrition brand's products are suitable for sale in the NHS as they do not meet criteria. He said that the companies who provide such items to the NHS are massive Multi billion dollar concerns. What makes you think the government will not one day determine that it is to be licensed given that:
> 
> A) Protein has a medicinal function as shown by numerous studies indicating it can help build muscle, and suppress appetite which meets th second limb of their definition of a medicine.
> 
> ...


And may I add for consistency, that even in cases of open consultation, the government seem to have set a precedent of employing highly respected, knowledgeable, independent advisors in matters of policy, only to ignore recommendations and do the exact opposite. As a civil servant myself, I am all too familiar with the practices of government.


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## goonerton (Sep 7, 2009)

Just sounds like a lot of hyperbole and scaremongering from people that are scared of the affect this tightening up of supp industry regulations is going to have on their profit margin.

To me from the info on the gov website we were linked to, it simply looks like one, supp companies will no longer be able to make claims of their products without being able to back them up. Who would argue against that?

Two, supps that are actually capable of modifying/correcting physiological function will need to be licensed and classed as medicines, and TBH on the whole this seems right, because by definition this makes them medical products. Cough medicines, headache tablets and other such items all have to licensed and made by properly regulated companies, so why should it be OK for powerful substances like some of the Pro Hormones that come with basically the same side effects as many steroids, to be classed as food items and not forego the regulations that even innocuous household medicines need to comply with.


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

m118 said:


> where these contacted by the MHRA?


they where contacte last April when this all came into play and they complied with the new guidlines some didnt


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## samstef (Feb 3, 2012)

stocks up on jack3d to sell in the black market waheyyy, this doesnt effect whey or casein dose it?


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## predatorN (Mar 16, 2009)

Pscarb said:


> Did you invite them in Pred?
> 
> So Pred by your posts all supplements are not safe so what time line are we talking about before they ban all supplements? From what you are saying all supplement brands should be panicking as there company and living is about to end and they will be on the dole que? So why is it the 3 supplement brand owners I have spoken to do not seem to share your panick yes they have to change some formulas but are not looking into training in another skill to make ends meet?


Not all. I am saying they can cook up any reason they want to legislate stuff out of existence or to make it too expensive to sell.

I am not talking about formulas that are compliant or not. I agree 100% that someone making whey, aminos, caffeine etc is gonna be unaffected by the MHRA, at least for this time. If in future they want to make the product testing more rigorous to the level that they use in the NHS then that is gonna cause issues but for now I agree the likes of reflex, boditronics etc will be unaffected and others may be able to reformulate.

Having said that the industry at large including protein sellers will be affected and sooner than you think. Can't say more as basing this on very confidential info but it will be an industry wide change and it is one nobody will I've but not one we can do anything about.


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## m575 (Apr 4, 2010)

i'd love to be friends with a supp shop owner that cant 'sell' any of this anymore. freebies all round!! :lol:


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## fitdog (May 30, 2010)

Bumping this we need a few more signatures yet!

http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/13372


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## huge monguss (Apr 5, 2011)

My reply back of my MP

Hello, I am emailing in regards to the 20% increase rise on proteinpowder as I understand it from the case involving Lucozade where it wasdecided that that drink would be vatable due to the fact that it isprimarily consumed for its taste, the government is applying this samerule to all sports nutrition drinks irrespective of whether it isconsumed for taste or done so based on its nutritional proprties. Whilethis could be considered fair in the case of pre-mixed drinks which aredrunk usually for the taste and enjoyment as much as anything else, itdoes not seem fair to apply the same tax to powdered products whichrequire the user to mix them themselves as these can really be classedas food. The vast majority of sportsmen who consume products such as proteinpowders do so PURELY for their nutritional content, preferring them asa healthier alternative to food. As such, they are consumed for themost part as an alternative meal replacement to food which is both morecostly and time consuming to prepare by comparison. The consultationdocument highlights that VAT will not apply to slimming products andmeal replacements but in practice, regardless of how the products aremarketed, they are consumed as meal replacements for their nutritionalvalue by their users. Furthermore, it should be noted that the nutritional composition ofsomething marketing itself as a protein powder for building muscle willoften be identical to a product designed to act as a meal replacementor slimming aid (usually just the serving sizes are smaller in thelatter examples). This opens the door to confusion and inconsistency inthe application. To use an analogy, it would be akin to saying that100g of chicken is for meal replacements or dieting while 200g would befor bulking up. I trust you can see the inconsistency in this. The most confusing aspect in this proposal is that sports nutritiondrinks which, in many cases are simply powdered versions of milk orwhey, will become vatable while milk, coconut milk, and powdered milkremain zero vat. How can powdered milk which is in many cases identicalnutritionally to what protein powders are made of be zero rated whilesports nutrition drinks wholly comprised of powdered milk or powderedwhey be standard rated? If the answer is the way they are marketed,what will happen to a product which nutritionally is very similar oridentical to powdered milk which then ceases to market itself as asports nutrition drink? How can drinks such as Ovaltine, and Horlicksbe zero rated when drinks intended for athletes with similarnutritional composition be liable for VAT? If manufacturers remove allmarketing and sell just the ingredient on its own merits will this meanthe products are treated differently for VAT purposes? People choose to adopt a healthier lifestyle and make themselvesaccountable for their own health. The sports nutrition industry helpspromote the fitness lifestyle and increases awareness of the need forthose who exercise to follow a carefully controlled diet if they are toreach their fitness and weight management goals. In addition to theinformation which the industry provides, much of it free of charge toconsumers, the products sold help their users to meet not only theirfitness goals but also helps ensure that health needs are taken careof. To take one example, the use of protein powder is essential formany to help provide a convenient and effective way to manage ourdiets, boost recovery and maintenance of muscle mass. Subjectingprotein powder products and others to VAT will make it impossible formany to keep using these products leading many to either give up on thefitness lifestyle or else swap these products for cheaper, unhealthyalternatives such as junk food. Given the fact the country is in the midst of a rising epidemic ofobesity, with an unsupportable proportion of national income spent onhealth, I would ask you to reconsider punishing those who have made acommitment to fitness and health and delay the implementation of a taxwhich will inevitably lead many people to abandon a healthy lifestylealtogether. Long term this will not only lead to rising costsassociated with obesity and ill health but as many swap their proteinpowders for unhealthy alternatives it will have a negative effect onthe industry. I hope that the combined detrimental effect on the economy and onpublic health will persuade the government to re-assess this proposalto tax sports nutrition drinks. Given that this year we are hosting theOlympics and these products are ones which Team GB will rely onheavily, what sort of a message does it send the public that youconsider a tax on hard working athletes following a healthy lifestyleas an appropriate measure to combat the deficit, while leaving thoseconsuming zero rated junk food daily who cost the NHS millions to carryon with their unhealthy lifestyles? The minority in this country wholook after their own health should not be taxed to pay for theunhealthy majority. I hope that the government takes heed of these points and reconsidersthe implementation of these proposals to tax sports nutrition products


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