# Your idea about my diet?



## Cago1355 (Aug 22, 2017)

I'm giving all the details about me

First,i'm *obsessed with six-packs.*

Height is 1.85 cm

Weight is 75.5 kg

Waist 86 cm

Current calorie intake=1900 cal per day

120 gr protein

80 gr fat

The rest is carbs

Here is my diet:

Breakfast at 7 am

Oatmeal - 60 gr

4 Large eggs

10 gr nuts

20gr peanut butter

Lunch at 12:30

Grilled chicken or fish or meatballs(150-200 gr )

Yoghurt

Salad

Vegetable

*BEFORE TRAINING OATMEAL AND YOGHURT

TRAINING SESSION

Dinner at 9 pm

150-200 gr chicken

100 gr carb(brown rice)


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## Tricky (Jan 21, 2017)

Cago1355 said:


> I'm giving all the details about me
> 
> First,i'm *obsessed with six-packs.*
> 
> ...


 First you need to eat sufficient protein and calories to build muscle. What's your weight training routine like? I would be aiming for 160g protein not 120g. Have you been training long


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## Cago1355 (Aug 22, 2017)

Tricky said:


> First you need to eat sufficient protein and calories to build muscle. What's your weight training routine like? I would be aiming for 160g protein not 120g. Have you been training long


 Not long

3/4 months

my weight training is full body workout 3 times in a week

I am 75 kg

many articles says 1.7 maximum protein

so it should be less than 150


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## mannersjay (Aug 19, 2013)

General rule is a gram of protein AT LEAST per lb of body weight. Rough conversion (cant be bothered to calculate) is you're 170lb. Whether dieting or bulking, you want as much protein as possible. Not sure why you think less than 150 grams protein is ideal, but knock yourself out. You'll lose muscle before fat, and your body composition will get worse, even if you lose weight. And no offence, you have very little muscle to play with as it stands. But hey, all the best.


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## Tricky (Jan 21, 2017)

Cago1355 said:


> Not long
> 
> 3/4 months
> 
> ...


 1.7 what to what ratio? Less than 150 for what? Is your goal to get stronger and add muscle, yes I imagine so otherwise you wouldn't be weight training. Plus your eating little calories so you'll need higher protein now than you would if you were eating above maintence calories


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## Cago1355 (Aug 22, 2017)

Tricky said:


> 1.7 what to what ratio? Less than 150 for what? Is your goal to get stronger and add muscle, yes I imagine so otherwise you wouldn't be weight training. Plus your eating little calories so you'll need higher protein now than you would if you were eating above maintence calories


 Body weight x 1.7 =Daily protein intake max

yeah my goal is achieving muscle and gaining weight


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## Fadi (Dec 14, 2010)

Cago1355 said:


> Not long
> 
> 3/4 months
> 
> ...


 Your protein intake is just fine, unless you listen to the hype over protein consumption. Secondly, the ingestion of protein (as made out to be the end all and be all by some) is not your (or should not) be what you *need first *on the list, as some would like you to believe. You're having about 1.6g of protein/kg of bodyweight. That's double the RDA. Granted you wish to increase the size of your muscles, and the catalyst here (and that's where the word "first" would fit in more appropriately)..., the catalyst for an increase in your muscle size is to be found in the gym, where muscle protein is degraded by the breakdown of your muscles *first*, and after that first step is taken care of, only then (depending on your rest/recovery and nutritional intake), would your muscles grow by adapting to the new demands that were placed on them inside of the iron dungeon,

Priority is a wonderful aspect to this whole new journey you've decided to embark on. I hope you keep that in mind next time someone (anyone really), decides to give you some advice.

I see no problem with your OP, however you need to challenge your muscles inside of the gym, and then do what is necessary outside of that environment in order for you to make some improvement.

I wish you all the best mate.

Fadi.


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## Tricky (Jan 21, 2017)

Fadi65 said:


> Your protein intake is just fine, unless you listen to the hype over protein consumption. Secondly, the ingestion of protein (as made out to be the end all and be all by some) is not your (or should not) be what you *need first *on the list, as some would like you to believe. You're having about 1.6g of protein/kg of bodyweight. That's double the RDA. Granted you wish to increase the size of your muscles, and the catalyst here (and that's where the word "first" would fit in more appropriately)..., the catalyst for an increase in your muscle size is to be found in the gym, where muscle protein is degraded by the breakdown of your muscles *first*, and after that first step is taken care of, only then (depending on your rest/recovery and nutritional intake), would your muscles grow by adapting to the new demands that were placed on them inside of the iron dungeon,
> 
> Priority is a wonderful aspect to this whole new journey you've decided to embark on. I hope you keep that in mind next time someone (anyone really), decides to give you some advice.
> 
> ...


 The RDA for what? A normal fat office worker with no desire to add muscle or lift weights? You can lift weights all you want in an iron dungeon if you eat the RDA for protein fat and carbs I very much doubt your going to make any significant progress in the departments he OP is after


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## Fadi (Dec 14, 2010)

Tricky said:


> The RDA for what? A normal fat office worker with no desire to add muscle or lift weights? You can lift weights all you want in an iron dungeon if you eat the RDA for protein fat and carbs I very much doubt your going to make any significant progress in the departments he OP is after


 I have no issues whatsoever with you believing in what you wrote above, it's your prerogative. I just happen to differ with you, that is all really.

Thanks.


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## superdrol (Aug 9, 2012)

1 gram per lb is where I aim, you need enough protein to build muscle, from experience I've never been able to tell the difference between lower and higher in any physical way, however I have built more muscle with higher protein lately but I can't say it was down to protein... however I will say I see no reason to go lower than 1g/lb or higher if not on gear, I've seen loads of studies for around that mark so it's what I always aimed for and recommend for natural lifters

if enhanced id go as far as 1.25g/lb as gear increases protein synthesis so a little more won't hurt anything and may help (study's for enhanced athletes don't tend to be a big part of the study's, I think I can recall one such study)


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## superdrol (Aug 9, 2012)

Fadi65 said:


> I have no issues whatsoever with you believing in what you wrote above, it's your prerogative. I just happen to differ with you, that is all really.
> 
> Thanks.


 I must admit I've never seen a study that recommended 0.4g/lb or thereabouts for a training individual and there's been lots bandied about on here over the years (based on you saying 1.6g/kg is roughly double recommended... 0.8g/lb roughly halved = 0.4g/lb ish or just under)

care to share??


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## Cago1355 (Aug 22, 2017)

Fadi65 said:


> Your protein intake is just fine, unless you listen to the hype over protein consumption. Secondly, the ingestion of protein (as made out to be the end all and be all by some) is not your (or should not) be what you *need first *on the list, as some would like you to believe. You're having about 1.6g of protein/kg of bodyweight. That's double the RDA. Granted you wish to increase the size of your muscles, and the catalyst here (and that's where the word "first" would fit in more appropriately)..., the catalyst for an increase in your muscle size is to be found in the gym, where muscle protein is degraded by the breakdown of your muscles *first*, and after that first step is taken care of, only then (depending on your rest/recovery and nutritional intake), would your muscles grow by adapting to the new demands that were placed on them inside of the iron dungeon,
> 
> Priority is a wonderful aspect to this whole new journey you've decided to embark on. I hope you keep that in mind next time someone (anyone really), decides to give you some advice.
> 
> ...


 What do you think about macros ?

i mean if I go for bulking,what is the proportion?

%50 carbs %30 protein %20 fat if I am doing 2700 cal diet


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## Fadi (Dec 14, 2010)

superdrol said:


> I must admit I've never seen a study that recommended 0.4g/lb or thereabouts for a training individual and there's been lots bandied about on here over the years (based on you saying 1.6g/kg is roughly double recommended... 0.8g/lb roughly halved = 0.4g/lb ish or just under)
> 
> care to share??


 




With the above, please fast forward to the 9 minutes mark to hear what Dr Phillips says re the main stimulatory factor re this whole muscle size issue.

Then this, as far as protein intake is concerned. Fast forward to around the 25:30 mark if you will.






If the above link does not work, then type the following into YouTube:

SPORTS NUTRITION: FROM SCIENCE TO RECOMMENDATIONS SPONSORED BY GSSI: ANABOLISM, Phillips, S.

Thank you.


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## Fadi (Dec 14, 2010)

Cago1355 said:


> What do you think about macros ?
> 
> i mean if I go for bulking,what is the proportion?
> 
> %50 carbs %30 protein %20 fat if I am doing 2700 cal diet


 It has been established that when you are in a caloric surplus, then the overall protein intake takes a back seat due to the high energy consumption. The opposite is also true, i.e. when in a caloric deficit, your protein intake would need to increase slightly.

As far as macros are concerned, it's not the percentage that one ought to focus on, but rather the grams ( of a particular macro) per kilogram of bodyweight. There are many diets out there, where do I start?

The best place for you to start, is to focus on your training using the compound movements, and eat a balanced diet as you are now, then adjust accordingly when you've been training for (say) a period of three months consistently. Today, no thanks (in a way) to the internet, eating has become rocket science. Just eat some whole natural foods, and a variety of it. You can always get down to the nitty gritty after a while.

Fadi.


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## Tricky (Jan 21, 2017)

Fadi65 said:


> It has been established that when you are in a caloric surplus, then the overall protein intake takes a back sit due to the high energy consumption. The opposite is also true, i.e. when in a caloric deficit, your protein intake would need to increase slightly.
> 
> As far as macros are concerned, it's not the percentage that one ought to focus on, but rather the grams ( of a particular macro) per kilogram of bodyweight. There are many diets out there, where do I start?
> 
> ...


 Your first paragraph, the OP isn't eating in a calorie surplus. His protein intake and overall kcals are too low for growth when combined with resistance training. The fact he is currently on so low kcals is even more so reason to bump up protein to 140-160g I believe.


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## Fadi (Dec 14, 2010)

Tricky said:


> Your first paragraph, the OP isn't eating in a calorie surplus. His protein intake and overall kcals are too low for growth when combined with resistance training. The fact he is currently on so low kcals is even more so reason to bump up protein to 140-160g I believe.


 Fair point.

Thank you mate.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

I'm not going to watch videos at work but in case there is confusion Stu Philips would definitely support a figure of about 1.6 g/kg of protein for the OP. He's a named author on more than one paper advocating this sort of figure (for people looking to maximise muscle gain from weight training and who aren't elderly).


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## Sphinkter (Apr 10, 2015)

Lots of conflicting evidence and studies on protein for athletes/BBers, im inclined to go with better safe than sorry and shoot for 200g, but i like meat etc so its not an issue.

That aside if we say 1g/lbs is optimal so OP should be having 150/160g, then is 30-40g protein really going to make that much of a difference assuming everything else is the same? Common sense people.. Total calories and training are the big hitters IMO.


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## Robbie (Dec 31, 2007)

Eat a bit more and train a LOT harder.


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## ellisrimmer (Sep 9, 2012)

Fadi65 said:


> I have no issues whatsoever with you believing in what you wrote above, it's your prerogative. I just happen to differ with you, that is all really.
> 
> Thanks.


 Savage.


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## Sphinkter (Apr 10, 2015)

From @FelonEs log, would be surprised if he hits 120g protein n hes 15 odd stone.


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## Uryens (Aug 10, 2017)

I'm no expert but your diet has room for improvement.

First, it would be nice that you detail the macro of each meal for instance :

breakfast : xx kcal for xx carbs / xx prot / xx fat

Second, I think you could had some greens in your diet at least in the last meal with the meat and rice you can throw 200-300g of spinach or brocolis

Third, if I were you I would up the kcal since you want to add some mass (I know it is hard since I have a huge fear of fat myself) therefore I would at least :

- had some carbs during lunch like sweet potatoes or rice

- had another meal or up the quantities like a banana in the morning some more oats before the training (according you take your meal at least 1h 1h30 before your training because of digestion)

- you can also had a bit of intra carb during your workout like 25 to 50 of dextrose or things like that

That's my opinion.

Good luck


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

I think it would really help if people could stop making this complicated. The OP is over thinking enough as it is across multiple threads.

Good training, appropriate calories and enough protein are plenty for the OP to be focusing on right now.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Cago1355 said:


> First,i'm *obsessed with six-packs.*


 I'll just add that if this is the case then you ought to be factoring in ab training to your training, which from memory hasn't been mentioned in your training thread.


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## Cago1355 (Aug 22, 2017)

Ultrasonic said:


> I think it would really help if people could stop making this complicated. The OP is over thinking enough as it is across multiple threads.
> 
> Good training, appropriate calories and enough protein are plenty for the OP to be focusing on right now.


 Okay

so my diet is

2500 kcal maintenance at first

protein:160 g

fat;58 g

the rest carbs

then if i can't gain weight in 2 weeks,increase calories to 2700 and see what happens

also progressive overload


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Cago1355 said:


> Okay
> 
> so my diet is
> 
> ...


 I would not personally suggest you eat 2500 kcal right now, as I have explained in an earlier post. I suggested how you should increase over time.


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## Cago1355 (Aug 22, 2017)

Ultrasonic said:


> I would not personally suggest you eat 2500 kcal right now, as I have explained in an earlier post. I suggested how you should increase over time.


 Yes but should i increase it with bulking macros or cutting Macros?


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## superdrol (Aug 9, 2012)

Cago1355 said:


> Yes but should i increase it with bulking macros or cutting Macros?


 If you want to feel your way into it slowly work between where you are now and where you want to be, there's no set percentages that are good... you do like over complicating stuff


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## Cago1355 (Aug 22, 2017)

superdrol said:


> If you want to feel your way into it slowly work between where you are now and where you want to be, there's no set percentages that are good... you do like over complicating stuff


 Yes because i want to be sure

cus the way is too long and the life is not so long to do many mistakes


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## superdrol (Aug 9, 2012)

Cago1355 said:


> Yes because i want to be sure
> 
> cus the way is too long and the life is not so long to do many mistakes


 That's the thing, anyone who tells you 'this is the only way to sort macros' is full of s**t as you could do it nine different ways and you'd get the same result each way! So just eat and work it out as you go, I was at 500g carbs, 250g protein and 113g fats last bulk and could've swapped it around by 20% on each and not made any difference!

in other words you can't be sure, everyone is different, the best diet is the one you enjoy!


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Cago1355 said:


> Yes but should i increase it with bulking macros or cutting Macros?


 Bulking, although I prefer the term gaining since bulking gives the wrong impression in terms of fat gain.

If you increase calories to 2500 kcal my guess is you'll gain more fat than you need to, which is why I suggested a more controlled approach.


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## Cago1355 (Aug 22, 2017)

Ultrasonic said:


> Bulking, although I prefer the term gaining since bulking gives the wrong impression on terms of fat gain.
> 
> If you increase calories to 2500 kcal my guess is you'll gain more fat than you need to, which is why I suggested a more controlled approach.


 Yeah you are right

i will increase 200 Each week

And if There is significant increase i will stand at the calorie and see

1 kg for each month,is a good gain?


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Cago1355 said:


> Yes because i want to be sure
> 
> cus the way is too long and the life is not so long to do many mistakes


 Total calories will determine weight/fat gain so focus on this. Differences in carb/fat split are much more subtle and individual and really not worth your time at the moment. As I've said before, so long as you don't go out of your way to be very low fat or very low carb you'll be totally fine, and you don't need to do the same every day either. Focus on being consistent with total calories so you can try to get that right.


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## Cago1355 (Aug 22, 2017)

Robbie said:


> Eat a bit more and train a LOT harder.


 You told me that you are training hammer Curl and lateral raise

are you injured? Because it is kgs not lbs


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

> 1 kg for each month,is a good gain?


 Perhaps a little more than that. The issue with aiming for 0.25 kg per week is it becomes hard to tell you definitely are gaining weight or not. Fat gain is a guide as well though.


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## Savage Lifter (Jul 14, 2016)

Tricky said:


> First you need to eat sufficient protein and calories to build muscle. What's your weight training routine like? I would be aiming for 160g protein not 120g. Have you been training long


 Why would 160g protein for a guy, who's clearly got as much lean muscle as my girlfriend, be needed? Especially when in a calorie deficit as fat loss is the main goal here. I get 120g protein per day and I'm doing just fine at a much, much higher lbm than this guy.


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## Tricky (Jan 21, 2017)

Savage Lifter said:


> Why would 160g protein for a guy, who's clearly got as much lean muscle as my girlfriend, be needed? Especially when in a calorie deficit as fat loss is the main goal here. I get 120g protein per day and I'm doing just fine at a much, much higher lbm than this guy.


 Especially when in a calorie deficit? Seriously? Even more so is protein important when in a deficit than when bulking. When bulking the focus is more on overall kcals but still adaqute protein to facilitate growth. In this case the OP needs to eat protein up jus kcals and add some size. If he cuts from where he is he won't be long until he looks like a POW inmate. Each to their own if your doing well cutting on less protein than bulking then crack on


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## Savage Lifter (Jul 14, 2016)

superdrol said:


> That's the thing, anyone who tells you 'this is the only way to sort macros' is full of s**t as you could do it nine different ways and you'd get the same result each way! So just eat and work it out as you go, I was at 500g carbs, 250g protein and 113g fats last bulk and could've swapped it around by 20% on each and not made any difference!
> 
> in other words you can't be sure, everyone is different, the best diet is the one you enjoy!


 I second this 100%. Listening to other people when they say you need X amount of protein, fat, carbs is like listening to someone when they say you need to do X amount of gear per week and you'll look like X. Everyone is different. Look at Jay Cutler's diet during Mr. O and then look at anyone else's.


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## Savage Lifter (Jul 14, 2016)

Tricky said:


> Especially when in a calorie deficit? Seriously? Even more so is protein important when in a deficit than when bulking. When bulking the focus is more on overall kcals but still adaqute protein to facilitate growth. In this case the OP needs to eat protein up jus kcals and add some size. If he cuts from where he is he won't be long until he looks like a POW inmate. Each to their own if your doing well cutting on less protein than bulking then crack on


 Have you seen his amount of muscle? I find it extremely hard to believe that 160g protein would stop him from losing more muscle than 120g protein when cutting. It also ties in with my other point that you can't give a set amount of carbs, fat and protein and hand it out to everyone and expect to see everyone get the same results the exact same thing everyone says about gear yet no one applies the same logic to diet. Lot's of things play a part. I lose almost no muscle when cutting but cutting takes me a lot longer than a lot of people.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

The OP has decided to stop cutting guys.


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## Cago1355 (Aug 22, 2017)

Savage Lifter said:


> Why would 160g protein for a guy, who's clearly got as much lean muscle as my girlfriend, be needed? Especially when in a calorie deficit as fat loss is the main goal here. I get 120g protein per day and I'm doing just fine at a much, much higher lbm than this guy.


 Funny ego lifter

read first

i am not going to cut


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## simonboyle (Aug 5, 2013)

Fadi65 said:


> Your protein intake is just fine, unless you listen to the hype over protein consumption. Secondly, the ingestion of protein (as made out to be the end all and be all by some) is not your (or should not) be what you *need first *on the list, as some would like you to believe. You're having about 1.6g of protein/kg of bodyweight. That's double the RDA. Granted you wish to increase the size of your muscles, and the catalyst here (and that's where the word "first" would fit in more appropriately)..., the catalyst for an increase in your muscle size is to be found in the gym, where muscle protein is degraded by the breakdown of your muscles *first*, and after that first step is taken care of, only then (depending on your rest/recovery and nutritional intake), would your muscles grow by adapting to the new demands that were placed on them inside of the iron dungeon,
> 
> Priority is a wonderful aspect to this whole new journey you've decided to embark on. I hope you keep that in mind next time someone (anyone really), decides to give you some advice.
> 
> ...


 I disagree.

You going to anything to back this up.

Purely curiosity and no trolling.


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## Savage Lifter (Jul 14, 2016)

Cago1355 said:


> Funny ego lifter
> 
> read first
> 
> i am not going to cut


 I don't see how ego lifting has anything to do with what I said... Do you even know what ego lifting is? I lift with good form and full range of motion. You said in your first post that you are obsessed with six packs so why are you deciding to bulk and not cut? You already have a high body fat percentage, bulking on top of that is going to make your body fat percentage higher, no matter how 'clean' you eat. Your photo makes me believe that you have never properly dieted down to a good body fat percentage before so you're just going to make it harder for yourself when you have to figure out how to diet properly while being fatter than when you started bulking.


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## Cago1355 (Aug 22, 2017)

Savage Lifter said:


> I don't see how ego lifting has anything to do with what I said... Do you even know what ego lifting is? I lift with good form and full range of motion. You said in your first post that you are obsessed with six packs so why are you deciding to bulk and not cut? You already have a high body fat percentage, bulking on top of that is going to make your body fat percentage higher, no matter how 'clean' you eat. Your photo makes me believe that you have never properly dieted down to a good body fat percentage before so you're just going to make it harder for yourself when you have to figure out how to diet properly while being fatter than when you started bulking.


 Because you think that i have a high body fat however i don't.It is just low muscle mass so that's why i don't look lean


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Savage Lifter said:


> I don't see how ego lifting has anything to do with what I said... Do you even know what ego lifting is? I lift with good form and full range of motion. You said in your first post that you are obsessed with six packs so why are you deciding to bulk and not cut? You already have a high body fat percentage, bulking on top of that is going to make your body fat percentage higher, no matter how 'clean' you eat. Your photo makes me believe that you have never properly dieted down to a good body fat percentage before so you're just going to make it harder for yourself when you have to figure out how to diet properly while being fatter than when you started bulking.


 He does not have high body fat. More to the point though he was getting depressed cutting so a change of plan is undoubtedly a good idea, at least for a while.


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## Fadi (Dec 14, 2010)

simonboyle said:


> I disagree.
> 
> You going to anything to back this up.
> 
> Purely curiosity and no trolling.


 Sure Simon, not a problem mate. I believe you are the 3rd person to ask me for some evidence to back what I wrote, and that's fair enough Sir. Please go back to page one of this thread, and I believe my post would be number 13 there, where I presented my reply.

Thank you for your question, I appreciate it.

Fadi.


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## Savage Lifter (Jul 14, 2016)

Ultrasonic said:


> He does not have high body fat. More to the point though he was getting depressed cutting so a change of plan is undoubtedly a good idea, at least for a while.


 Looking at his photo I would call that high body fat. For bodybuilding anyway. I agree that a change of plan is a good idea if he was getting depressed cutting but I don't think bulking up is a better idea than staying at maintenance. Did he say what exactly was making him depressed? For a beginner natty lifter, recomping can be quite effective.


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## Cago1355 (Aug 22, 2017)

Savage Lifter said:


> Looking at his photo I would call that high body fat. For bodybuilding anyway. I agree that a change of plan is a good idea if he was getting depressed cutting but I don't think bulking up is a better idea than staying at maintenance. Did he say what exactly was making him depressed? For a beginner natty lifter, recomping can be quite effective.


 1-I'm not a beginner

2-Same clean bulk was told to me by many years experienced trainer with photos

so is it possible to know more than him?

3-The problem is muscle mass

so how do you think with cutting

i can have good abs?


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Savage Lifter said:


> Looking at his photo I would call that high body fat. For bodybuilding anyway. I agree that a change of plan is a good idea if he was getting depressed cutting but I don't think bulking up is a better idea than staying at maintenance. Did he say what exactly was making him depressed? For a beginner natty lifter, recomping can be quite effective.


 Read the bulk or cat thread. (Yes, cat.)

Maintenance periods are only a good idea as transition or periodising phases as far as I'm concerned, but that's well beyond the scope of this thread.


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## Savage Lifter (Jul 14, 2016)

Cago1355 said:


> 1-I'm not a beginner
> 
> 2-Same clean bulk was told to me by many years experienced trainer with photos
> 
> ...


 As far as abs go, the problem is not muscle mass. Of course adding a bit more ab muscle will help them pop more but if you're already very lean you will be able to see your abs. I don't know your trainer or what his qualifications are so I don't know whether or not I know more than him. I am simply stating what I think and my reasoning behind it. In my opinion and I find it very hard to logically disagree with this, if your only goal at the moment is to get your abs to show, you need to drop your body fat and they WILL show. If you want a good physique then I guess you could bulk first but I still think that cutting first and then bulking is better as if gives you experiene with cutting down and it makes cutting down after your bulk a lot easier and less time consuming.


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## Cago1355 (Aug 22, 2017)

Savage Lifter said:


> As far as abs go, the problem is not muscle mass. Of course adding a bit more ab muscle will help them pop more but if you're already very lean you will be able to see your abs. I don't know your trainer or what his qualifications are so I don't know whether or not I know more than him. I am simply stating what I think and my reasoning behind it. In my opinion and I find it very hard to logically disagree with this, if your only goal at the moment is to get your abs to show, you need to drop your body fat and they WILL show. If you want a good physique then I guess you could bulk first but I still think that cutting first and then bulking is better as if gives you experiene with cutting down and it makes cutting down after your bulk a lot easier and less time consuming.


 Why ?

building muscle takes More time than losing fat

so going back to too skinny is just make the process longer i think


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## Savage Lifter (Jul 14, 2016)

Ultrasonic said:


> Read the bulk or cat thread. (Yes, cat.)
> 
> Maintenance periods are only a good idea as transition or periodising phases as far as I'm concerned, but that's well beyond the scope of this thread.


 I respect your opinion which I do disagree with if you mean in this case and not just in general. I think I've said everything that can be said on this thread for now. I still don't think bulking is the best option for him if his goal is to get his abs to show because obviously that makes no sense - more detail in my post above.


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## Savage Lifter (Jul 14, 2016)

Cago1355 said:


> Why ?
> 
> building muscle takes More time than losing fat
> 
> so going back to too skinny is just make the process longer i think


 That statement simply is not true for everyone. Some find it extremely easy to put on mass while others find it extremely easy to cut. and because you seem to not have done either for a long enough period to know what works for yourself, you can't say what works for your body better than what. The same can be said for bulking up, it makes cutting down a lot longer too...


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Savage Lifter said:


> I respect your opinion which I do disagree with if you mean in this case and not just in general. I think I've said everything that can be said on this thread for now. I still don't think bulking is the best option for him if his goal is to get his abs to show because obviously that makes no sense - more detail in my post above.


 He has expressed different priorities in different places...


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## Cago1355 (Aug 22, 2017)

Ultrasonic said:


> He has expressed different priorities in different places...


 Look man,

my priority is being Healthy,low body fat,veins,abs,athletic posture and so on

i hate my love handles,everytime i touch Them i am demoralized


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## Savage Lifter (Jul 14, 2016)

Ultrasonic said:


> He has expressed different priorities in different places...


 I guess I should have read every reply but my point still stands that I think he should cut first and then bulk up. It gives him experience with cutting properly which will make cutting after the bulk easier and more effective. He is going to get gains regardless of when he decides to bulk since he is a somewhat new lifter (from what I see from his photo).


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## Savage Lifter (Jul 14, 2016)

Cago1355 said:


> Look man,
> 
> my priority is being Healthy,low body fat,veins,abs,athletic posture and so on
> 
> i hate my love handles,everytime i touch Them i am demoralized


 This just adds more reasoning for my statement on what I think you should do. Cut first then bulk. I see no logical reason from what you just said here for why you would bulk before cutting.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Savage Lifter said:


> I guess I should have read every reply but my point still stands that I think he should cut first and then bulk up. It gives him experience with cutting properly which will make cutting after the bulk easier and more effective. He is going to get gains regardless of when he decides to bulk since he is a somewhat new lifter (from what I see from his photo).


 Don't forget my point about getting depressed.


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## Cago1355 (Aug 22, 2017)

Savage Lifter said:


> I guess I should have read every reply but my point still stands that I think he should cut first and then bulk up. It gives him experience with cutting properly which will make cutting after the bulk easier and more effective. He is going to get gains regardless of when he decides to bulk since he is a somewhat new lifter (from what I see from his photo).


 Yeah but the problem is my belly can't go anywhere

3 weeks training,obsessed diet,cardio but it doesn't work :/


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## Cago1355 (Aug 22, 2017)

Savage Lifter said:


> This just adds more reasoning for my statement on what I think you should do. Cut first then bulk. I see no logical reason from what you just said here for why you would bulk before cutting.


 Because everyone tells something bad

And everyday when i see my love handles

i am demotivated and i don't know how to cut properly


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## Savage Lifter (Jul 14, 2016)

Ultrasonic said:


> Don't forget my point about getting depressed.


 I haven't. I just kinda disregarded it because I haven't seen a specific reason as to what was making him depressed. Like being in a calorie deficit because you hate being fat but you aren't visually losing fat. This f**ks with my head a lot too but sticking with it has always been the better choice for me.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Cago1355 said:


> Yeah but the problem is my belly can't go anywhere
> 
> 3 weeks training,obsessed diet,cardio but it doesn't work :/


 Weeks ???


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## Savage Lifter (Jul 14, 2016)

Cago1355 said:


> Yeah but the problem is my belly can't go anywhere
> 
> 3 weeks training,obsessed diet,cardio but it doesn't work :/





Cago1355 said:


> Because everyone tells something bad
> 
> And everyday when i see my love handles
> 
> i am demotivated and i don't know how to cut properly


 Then you should be asking people like Ultrasonic for cutting advice. You will lose the fat eventually if you have a good plan. There is no way you won't.


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## Savage Lifter (Jul 14, 2016)

Ultrasonic said:


> Weeks ???


 And here it starts to be more clear as to why he is depressed. His goals are unreasonable imo. You should give him good cutting advice and help him with that rather than bulking. From being in shoes similar to his, I think bulking will be a terrible thing for him to do. He will feel so much worse about his body based on everything he has just said. His mental state will be miserable when he has to try to cut all that fat down.


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## Cago1355 (Aug 22, 2017)

Ultrasonic said:


> Weeks ???


 Sorry

3 times in a week

I tried to tell


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## Tricky (Jan 21, 2017)

Cago1355 said:


> Yeah but the problem is my belly can't go anywhere
> 
> 3 weeks training,obsessed diet,cardio but it doesn't work :/


 3 weeks? What are you expecting in 3 weeks? You say your not a beginner, so how long have you been training? What's your current workout routine look like


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## Cago1355 (Aug 22, 2017)

Tricky said:


> 3 weeks? What are you expecting in 3 weeks? You say your not a beginner, so how long have you been training? What's your current workout routine look like


 Please read all posts dude

i Said i wrote it 'wrong'

3 months

my working routine;

barbell bench 2x10
lateral raise 2x10
Pendley row 2x10
hammer curls 2x10
tricep overhead press 2x10
Squat 2x10
leg extension 2x10
hamstring curl 2x10


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## Tricky (Jan 21, 2017)

Cago1355 said:


> Please read all posts dude
> 
> i Said i wrote it 'wrong'
> 
> ...


 What sort of weight are you benching and squatting? That's not the best routine mate I would look at either

upper/lower split with 2 upper and 2 lower days

push, Pull,legs

stronglifts.

Have you decided what your going to do diet wise? What is your maintence kcals?

Your obessed with abs yet no direct ab work of movements like deadlifts, chins or dips that would help with core to?


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## Cago1355 (Aug 22, 2017)

Tricky said:


> What sort of weight are you benching and squatting? That's not the best routine mate I would look at either
> 
> upper/lower split with 2 upper and 2 lower days
> 
> ...


 My maintenance is probably 2500 so i subtract 400-500 cal and 2100 is a calorie for burning fat

yeah but i don't know how to organize exercises so i don't know what should i do to gain muscle and lose fat and have ABS?


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## Tricky (Jan 21, 2017)

Cago1355 said:


> My maintenance is probably 2500 so i subtract 400-500 cal and 2100 is a calorie for burning fat
> 
> yeah but i don't know how to organize exercises so i don't know what should i do to gain muscle and lose fat and have ABS?


 As your still a beginner it is possible to lose fat and gain muscle which is called recomping. For this though I believe you need to eat in around maintence with sufficient protein. I took the close to maintence on workout days and below matintence on rest days approach always making sure I hit 180g protein. Carbs and fats changed daily as my diet did.

Stronglifts is a simple routine to follow where your doing compound lifts adding weight to the bar each workout getting stronger each week and adding muscle. The upper lower split is simply that train all upper movements one day and all lower the next workout. You can train 4 times so two each over the week leaving you 3 days to rest. Again the push pull legs routine is proven and simple to follow with many examples on this site.

How much weight have you lost since eating 400-500 below matintence and how long have you been dieting?

If youve no injurys or reasons why you can't I would look to try pick a routine which incorporates deads, squats, bench, dips and chins atleast. I prefer dips and Pull ups for biceps and triceps over any isolation curl or pushdown and for back I think chin ups are he best for width.

Get a good diet and training plan and focus on making progress each day and week on week and in 3 months you can make significant changes.

this pictures show my progress from last month, i cut for 12 weeks and focused on hitting my protein target and lifting as heavy as I could. Yes I used drugs in the last 6 weeks but the first 6 weeks I was natty and still lost about 15lbs and adding some muscle before starting to use PED's. I ended up over 30lbs down

good luck but try get a good plan and diet and stick at it for 3 months before changing routine ect

View attachment IMG_1163.PNG


View attachment 145005


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## Cago1355 (Aug 22, 2017)

Tricky said:


> As your still a beginner it is possible to lose fat and gain muscle which is called recomping. For this though I believe you need to eat in around maintence with sufficient protein. I took the close to maintence on workout days and below matintence on rest days approach always making sure I hit 180g protein. Carbs and fats changed daily as my diet did.
> 
> Stronglifts is a simple routine to follow where your doing compound lifts adding weight to the bar each workout getting stronger each week and adding muscle. The upper lower split is simply that train all upper movements one day and all lower the next workout. You can train 4 times so two each over the week leaving you 3 days to rest. Again the push pull legs routine is proven and simple to follow with many examples on this site.
> 
> ...


 Why should not i increase my calorie a little bit over maintenance?


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## Tricky (Jan 21, 2017)

Cago1355 said:


> Why should not i increase my calorie a little bit over maintenance?


 Mate what is your goal? I ate above on training days and below on rest days so overall each week I was in a deficit losing 3-2lbs per week


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## Cago1355 (Aug 22, 2017)

Tricky said:


> Mate what is your goal? I ate above on training days and below on rest days so overall each week I was in a deficit losing 3-2lbs per week


 Mate

I am so confused

some says that you have a high body fat so increasing Your weight is going to depress you more

some says that if you lose more weight,you are going to be so slim and skinny

i don't know what to do


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## Tricky (Jan 21, 2017)

Cago1355 said:


> Mate
> 
> I am so confused
> 
> ...


 Only you can decide but from what your saying I think you would be happier dieting down then trying to bulk. So to that end I would start your diet at 2300/2400 the first week, pick one of the routines I listed above. Aim for 120g as an absolute min protein I would be looking around 140-160g at your size but that's just me.

Each week drop your kcals by 150-200 per day. Up your cardio sessions each week to. This way your weight loss should not stall for a good few weeks as your dropping your kcals and increasing your deficit with the cardio as the weeks go on. In 8-12 weeks then you can reacess


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## superdrol (Aug 9, 2012)

Cago1355 said:


> Mate
> 
> I am so confused
> 
> ...


 No, you said you didn't feel good from cutting after doing it for a while so we said if you want to put some muscle on you could do that from a position of being a middle ground of being lowish fat but with very little muscle, so we gave you a full body routine that hit every body part each workout, it's almost like you want us to tell you what to do... this will ever work, your story changes with each post and you don't stick to a plan and continually second guess yourself... sorry but you've been training for three months, there's no magic bullet, no perfect plan for everyone as we pointed out with nutrition

the problem with forums is you get opinions from everyone, you, no one else needs to pick a training method and do it consistently for 3 months, reflect on how it's gone, by that point youllhave a vague handle on diet and what you want, I suspect your gonna be one of these people who chop and change looking for the perfect diet and training program that never happens and doesn't exist so your gonna beat yourself up forever more, sorry

@tricky the reason I gave him a full body routine is it was a good mix of exercises, rep ranges for adding muscle even in deficit, and is a good taster of what's to come, hits all muscle groups several times a week and he won't burn out doing it...

To those saying do stronglifts... having done it... it is crap in a defecit, regardless of what people say, you will stall prematurely, won't build a good chunk of muscle regardless of what people say about it being a magic bullet for beginners... once he's lost some fat and gained a bit of muscle I'd be happy for him to drop onto it and push his weights up and build some strength and muscle in a subtle surplus...


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## Cago1355 (Aug 22, 2017)

superdrol said:


> No, you said you didn't feel good from cutting after doing it for a while so we said if you want to put some muscle on you could do that from a position of being a middle ground of being lowish fat but with very little muscle, so we gave you a full body routine that hit every body part each workout, it's almost like you want us to tell you what to do... this will ever work, your story changes with each post and you don't stick to a plan and continually second guess yourself... sorry but you've been training for three months, there's no magic bullet, no perfect plan for everyone as we pointed out with nutrition
> 
> the problem with forums is you get opinions from everyone, you, no one else needs to pick a training method and do it consistently for 3 months, reflect on how it's gone, by that point youllhave a vague handle on diet and what you want, I suspect your gonna be one of these people who chop and change looking for the perfect diet and training program that never happens and doesn't exist so your gonna beat yourself up forever more, sorry


 So what should i do ?


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## Cago1355 (Aug 22, 2017)

superdrol said:


> No, you said you didn't feel good from cutting after doing it for a while so we said if you want to put some muscle on you could do that from a position of being a middle ground of being lowish fat but with very little muscle, so we gave you a full body routine that hit every body part each workout, it's almost like you want us to tell you what to do... this will ever work, your story changes with each post and you don't stick to a plan and continually second guess yourself... sorry but you've been training for three months, there's no magic bullet, no perfect plan for everyone as we pointed out with nutrition
> 
> the problem with forums is you get opinions from everyone, you, no one else needs to pick a training method and do it consistently for 3 months, reflect on how it's gone, by that point youllhave a vague handle on diet and what you want, I suspect your gonna be one of these people who chop and change looking for the perfect diet and training program that never happens and doesn't exist so your gonna beat yourself up forever more, sorry
> 
> ...


 You told me that go maintenance now and slowly increase?

but what if my bf is going to be Much more?

i mean, i can't see my ABS so i am higher than %12 right ?


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## superdrol (Aug 9, 2012)

Cago1355 said:


> So what should i do ?


 That being the issue, pick something and stick to it, we are going around in circles! What do you want? One time you say abs, next you say fitness so just working out is good, next you say losing fat is depressing and you can't

i will not reply again until you decide what you want to do, it's down to you poppet, not me, not your mum, not tricky, be a man and decide what you want!!


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## superdrol (Aug 9, 2012)

Cago1355 said:


> You told me that go maintenance now and slowly increase?
> 
> but what if my bf is going to be Much more?
> 
> i mean, i can't see my ABS so i am higher than %12 right ?


 You told us what your maintenence is, you told us you have a basic knowledge about building muscle...

if you lied and you are guessing maintenence then you need to do what ultrasonic said and slowly work your way up...

if your maintenence is 2500 which would be reasonable I think I'd see no issue with you eating at that

you lost 2lb a month with 1800 calories so maybe maintenence is around 2500, or maybe it's around 2300, if it's 2300 then a 200 calories surplus with three hard sessions a week would see you gain a small amount of weight over a month, therefore you would carry on until your weight gain stalled and then add 200 calories on and go again, then repeat, you'd then have a handle on where your maintenence was and how much weight you could gain nicely without loads of fat... that was my rational of going straight to 2500 either way he it wasn't gonna be far off, I don't think you need to be particularly subtle about food at your stage, eat enough protein and get some training under your belt, @Ultrasonic has another take on it, as we've all pointed out, there's no one size fits all for anything!

everyone will give a different answer to a question, again, you need to work out what you want to do and ask us how to do it, not the other way around, the biggest part of any plan is deciding what you want to do... the key word being 'you' in every post I've written so far


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

> i mean, i can't see my ABS so i am higher than %12 right ?


 I know this goes against internet folklore but the body fat level at which abs are visible is dependent on the size/shape of the abdominal muscles, as well as an individual's body fat distribution across their body. There are people with more body fat than you with visible abs. Also note that how someone poses affects how their abdomen looks.

This is all getting very messy and confused as you have information split across multiple threads. There is no definite 'right' thing for you to do though so you are not going to get everyone here to agree.

For people who haven't read it there is a separate bulk/cut (cat) thread.


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## Tricky (Jan 21, 2017)

Ultrasonic said:


> I know this goes against internet folklore but the body fat level at which abs are visible is dependent on the size/shape of the abdominal muscles, as well as an individual's body fat distribution across their body. There are people with more body fat than you with visible abs. Also note that how you pose affects how your abdomen looks.
> 
> This is all getting very messy and confused as you have information split across multiple threads. There is no definite 'right' thing for you to do though so you are not going to get everyone here to agree.
> 
> For people who haven't read it there is a separate bulk/cut (cat) thread.


 I can testify to this. In 2013 I'm deployed to Afghan for 7 months doing fighting patrols carrying loads of kit plus a machine gun for km's each day. I went at 15stone 6ft and came back 12.5 stone the lightest I've ever been and I still don't not have a 6 pack because I didn't train abs so don't have developed abs and I just don't think it's in my genetic make up to have good abs naturally.

To that end the OP may well cut another stone or more and he still won't have the 6 pack he thinks he will have.

This is getting very confusing to the OP and I wish him all the best the information is out there just read it and pick bits and stick to it


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

> you lost 2lb a month with 1800 calories so maybe maintenence is around 2500, or maybe it's around 2300...


 FWIW the VERY rough calculation I based my original suggestion on was: 2lb/month = 0.5 lb per week = 250 kcal per day deficit. So current maintenance might be about 2150 kcal. Add 200 kcal to increase calories but probably not be in a surplus. After a week maintenance may have increased a bit. Add 200 kcal and then see where we're at, and then gradually increase in 100 kcal steps from there.

Not saying this is in anyway perfect but a slightly cautious approach for someone who has been cutting for a good while and would probably like to avoid unecessary fat gain.


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## Cago1355 (Aug 22, 2017)

Ultrasonic said:


> FWIW the VERY rough calculation I based my original suggestion on was: 2lb/month = 0.5 lb per week = 250 kcal per day deficit. So current maintenance might be about 2150 kcal. Add 200 kcal to increase calories but probably not be in a surplus. After a week maintenance may have increased a bit. Add 200 kcal and then see where we're at, and then gradually increase in 100 kcal steps from there.
> 
> Not saying this is in anyway perfect but a slightly cautious approach for someone who has been cutting for a good while and would probably like to avoid unecessary fat gain.


 i am gonna bulk


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Cago1355 said:


> i am gonna bulk


 My post was about you bulking (gaining).


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## simonboyle (Aug 5, 2013)

Fadi65 said:


> Sure Simon, not a problem mate. I believe you are the 3rd person to ask me for some evidence to back what I wrote, and that's fair enough Sir. Please go back to page one of this thread, and I believe my post would be number 13 there, where I presented my reply.
> 
> Thank you for your question, I appreciate it.
> 
> Fadi.


 Fair play


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## Cago1355 (Aug 22, 2017)

Ultrasonic said:


> FWIW the VERY rough calculation I based my original suggestion on was: 2lb/month = 0.5 lb per week = 250 kcal per day deficit. So current maintenance might be about 2150 kcal. Add 200 kcal to increase calories but probably not be in a surplus. After a week maintenance may have increased a bit. Add 200 kcal and then see where we're at, and then gradually increase in 100 kcal steps from there.
> 
> Not saying this is in anyway perfect but a slightly cautious approach for someone who has been cutting for a good while and would probably like to avoid unecessary fat gain.


 Btw.

rice should be Scaled uncooked ?

For ex on the package of rice it says That per 100g,it is 354 cal

so Before Cooking,i should take 100g and cook and eat right?


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## superdrol (Aug 9, 2012)

Cago1355 said:


> Btw.
> 
> rice should be Scaled uncooked ?
> 
> ...


 It depends on whether it states cooked or uncooked values, your better off with uncooked values with rice and pasta as cooking for a few minutes longer or less will change the amount of water absorbed and therefore it's weight....

that does sound about right for uncooked values, coop jasmine rice is 350 per 100g uncooked  So yes if you want 354 cals of rice weigh100g dry :thumbup1:


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Cago1355 said:


> Btw.
> 
> rice should be Scaled uncooked ?
> 
> ...


 As above, you have to watch for whether a pack is telling you cooked or uncooked data but in this case those figures are for uncooked weight. This is what it's best to use because you can measure out the amount you want to get whatever calories you're after.

(Using data with cooked weights is also generally less accurate because it depends a bit how things are cooked what you'll actually get. Where you do want to used cooked weight data is on things like sausages or burgers where a fair amount of fat can be lost during the cooking process.)


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