# Truth - Pro Bodybuilder Doses



## Chelsea (Sep 19, 2009)

Ok, I've just watched this and to be honest I usually avoid videos like this but the guy actually seemed to raise some really good points and to be fair I believe him, im sure that the pro's aren't on the crazy cycles that most think they are on and that genetics really do play a massive part because like the dude said you could take all the best pharma grade gear in the world and you still wouldn't look like Phil Heath in the same way that if you played football your whole life you wouldn't be as good as Messi or Ronaldo, its just something that these guys have genetically that 99% of the population do not.

Anyway enjoy the vid, the guy comes across a little shouty but he has a point:


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## big silver back (Jan 17, 2009)

I dont think the pro's take as much as people think, geneticly they are far superior than most of us. I aint got the best genetics in the world and can come in around the 15st mark in pretty good condition with very little meds so a top pro should come in a few stone heavier quite comfortably id say


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## Tekken (Feb 8, 2014)

Seen it already, i personally think its very hit and miss and full of half truths


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## IGotTekkers (Jun 6, 2012)

marc lobliner is a good guy, very well respected in the BB circles. Jerry Ward from Bios3 made a video response to this which got posted in my facebook, and we ended up having a slanging match over his claims about raws and ugl gear, then he apologised and now we are chums lol.

check out Van Brah aswell mate he does the youtube fitness news, he is ****ing quality, he has got that face you just wanna kiss


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## MRSTRONG (Apr 18, 2009)

all pro`s are nattys .


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## bigden (Jul 16, 2007)

I know an ifbb pro competitor who is very open with his dosages and what he takes and if his are like any of the others then they are not on a lot, he doesn't go above 500mg test a week for the base of any of his cycles, so I can believe that it is all down to genes and very good diets, supplements and the help these pros get from experts etc, I believe it is a mixture of all of that which allows them to get into the shape they do


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## Tekken (Feb 8, 2014)

bigden said:


> I know an ifbb pro competitor who is very open with his dosages and what he takes and if his are like any of the others then they are not on a lot, he doesn't go above 500mg test a week for the base of any of his cycles, so I can believe that it is all down to genes and very good diets, supplements and the help these pros get from experts etc, I believe it is a mixture of all of that which allows them to get into the shape they do


please post these cycles


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## Chelsea (Sep 19, 2009)

big silver back said:


> I dont think the pro's take as much as people think, geneticly they are far superior than most of us. I aint got the best genetics in the world and can come in around the 15st mark in pretty good condition with very little meds so a top pro should come in a few stone heavier quite comfortably id say


Completely agree mate although I would say you have pretty fcking good genetics!! I have never been over 1.2g Test and 400mg Tren and have competed and won whereas some people who are half the size use GH, slin and grams of gear and still look sh1te.

People like Phil Heath can just look at a weight and get bigger, Ronnie was the ultimate freak.



IGotTekkers said:


> marc lobliner is a good guy, very well respected in the BB circles. Jerry Ward from Bios3 made a video response to this which got posted in my facebook, and we ended up having a slanging match over his claims about raws and ugl gear, then he apologised and now we are chums lol.
> 
> check out Van Brah aswell mate he does the youtube fitness news, he is ****ing quality, he has got that face you just wanna kiss


Haha, chuck the link over mate if they decent.


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## GolfDelta (Jan 5, 2010)

Started off watching and was unsure I'd get passed the first few minutes because of how shouty he was haha but ended up liking him.I agree,i cringe when I see people on here posting their 'Next cycle' threads 1g Test,500mg tren,500mg mast,100mg oxys and 50mg dbol etc etc.......then I look at their avi and just shake my head,people barely over 13 stone tensing their pipe cleaner arms and dishing out steroid advice,like as the guy in the video said,steroid gurus who actually don't have a clue.


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## funkdocta (May 29, 2013)

I think the pros dont use **** UG labs... so they dont need to go so high on the gear. They probably only use pharma or have their own brews.


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## vtec_yo (Nov 30, 2011)

The video is 13:37 long.

h4x

1llum1n4t1

Interesting vid, but the guy comes across a bit aggro..


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## GolfDelta (Jan 5, 2010)

funkdocta said:


> I think the pros dont use **** UG labs... so they dont need to go so high on the gear. They probably only use pharma or have their own brews.


This is just complete conjecture though,reality is you have no idea,pretty much what the whole video was about lol.


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## Tekken (Feb 8, 2014)

funkdocta said:


> I think the pros dont use **** UG labs... so they dont need to go so high on the gear. They probably only use pharma or have their own brews.


i doubt they use anything pharma other than test and some orals


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## Huntingground (Jan 10, 2010)

Their genetics can't be that good as lots of them drop dead pretty early.

Kovacs is the latest BB/Jenkins the latest SM (31yo). If anybody doesn't believe that a lot of these deaths are caused by high-dose gear (usually quoted as underlying, unknown health issue, in all lielihood heart related), then the laws of probability mustn't work for bodybuilders/strongmen etc. Too many of them dropping dead in 30s and 40s for it to be coincidence.


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## GolfDelta (Jan 5, 2010)

I hope this thread doesn't turn into people guessing what pro's do and don't use.Would be kind of ironic.

NO-ONE APART FROM THE PRO'S THEMSELVES KNOW THERE IS NO POINT SPECULATING!!!


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## shredder85 (Jan 19, 2014)

what about that bostin lloyd, what a bum nugget. sticks himself with stupid amounts in his early 20's


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## Chelsea (Sep 19, 2009)

funkdocta said:


> I think the pros dont use **** UG labs... so they dont need to go so high on the gear. They probably only use pharma or have their own brews.


There was a thread on an American forum that had an undercover pro bodybuilder and he did say that they used UGL and most of their gear was just given to them haha.


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## Chelsea (Sep 19, 2009)

Huntingground said:


> Their genetics can't be that good as lots of them drop dead pretty early.
> 
> Kovacs is the latest BB/Jenkins the latest SM (31yo). If anybody doesn't believe that a lot of these deaths are caused by high-dose gear (usually quoted as underlying, unknown health issue, in all lielihood heart related), then the laws of probability mustn't work for bodybuilders/strongmen etc. Too many of them dropping dead in 30s and 40s for it to be coincidence.


I don't think that many have to be fair mate, you look at the guys that have won the O and they are all still alive apart from Olivia I think. Also most the top ten guys from any era are all still live and kicking and some are in great shape like Dorian, abs in his 50's.

Im sure the ones that have died younger haven't been helped by AAS use but who's to say they wouldn't have passed away young regardless?


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## funkdocta (May 29, 2013)

GolfDelta said:


> This is just complete conjecture though,reality is you have no idea,pretty much what the whole video was about lol.


yeah hence i said "I think"....


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## funkdocta (May 29, 2013)

Tekken said:


> i doubt they use anything pharma other than test and some orals


Well i doubt they use pharma tren.... as there isnt any.  And dont say Alpha Pharma! lol


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## funkdocta (May 29, 2013)

Chelsea said:


> I don't think that many have to be fair mate, you look at the guys that have won the O and they are all still alive apart from Olivia I think. Also most the top ten guys from any era are all still live and kicking and some are in great shape like Dorian, abs in his 50's.
> 
> Im sure the ones that have died younger haven't been helped by AAS use but who's to say they wouldn't have passed away young regardless?


Dorian actually came out and said when gear and amounts he was using. Cant recall who the interview was with but sure it was on youtube. He was just using average amounts of test and deca if i recall. Nothing like some fools taking grams and grams.


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## Guest (Feb 14, 2014)

Genetics come into it obviously.

I'm of the opinion that to become one of of the sports elite you simply have to take high dosages of aas, insulin, hgh etc.

Now I don't believe they have to maintain this for the rest of there careers but a few years of higher dosages will see there physiques transform and then it becomes a question of maintaining on lower doses and diet.


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## Tekken (Feb 8, 2014)

funkdocta said:


> Well i doubt they use pharma tren.... as there isnt any.  And dont say Alpha Pharma! lol


yeh but even deca and eq, the pharma versions come in doses of like what 50mg/ml. Thats gonna end up being a ****load of oil


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## Tekken (Feb 8, 2014)

funkdocta said:


> Dorian actually came out and said when gear and amounts he was using. Cant recall who the interview was with but sure it was on youtube. He was just using average amounts of test and deca if i recall. Nothing like some fools taking grams and grams.


he also claims he didnt use insulin, he simply says low doses so dumb kids dont try and replicate his stacks and **** themselves up


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## Chelsea (Sep 19, 2009)

Spawn of Haney said:


> Genetics come into it obviously.
> 
> I'm of the opinion that to become one of of the sports elite you simply have to take high dosages of aas, insulin, hgh etc.
> 
> Now I don't believe they have to maintain this for the rest of there careers but a few years of higher dosages will see there physiques transform and then it becomes a question of maintaining on lower doses and diet.


Haven't thought of it like that, good point, I suppose once you get as far as you can go with your body then whats the point of whacking in more. Interesting point mate.


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## Huntingground (Jan 10, 2010)

Chelsea said:


> I don't think that many have to be fair mate, you look at the guys that have won the O and they are all still alive apart from Olivia I think. Also most the top ten guys from any era are all still live and kicking and some are in great shape like Dorian, abs in his 50's.
> 
> Im sure the ones that have died younger haven't been helped by AAS use but who's to say they wouldn't have passed away young regardless?


Most famous would be Mentzer I suppose, both of the brothers dead and Mike should have won mr O in 1980. Rumours about amphetamines and other drugs though for Mike.

Munzer.

Jon-Pall Sigmarsson.

Daz Ball recently fooked his kidneys.

The list is from memory and could go on and on and on. All I am saying is that it points to high-gear usage, especially what these guys are dying/suffering from - heart, kidneys, these are the most affected organs by gear.


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## funkdocta (May 29, 2013)

Tekken said:


> yeh but even deca and eq, the pharma versions come in doses of like what 50mg/ml. Thats gonna end up being a ****load of oil


not sure about eq but deca is like 100mg/200mg isnt it?? It was back in the day anyway haha


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## Huntingground (Jan 10, 2010)

funkdocta said:


> Dorian actually came out and said when gear and amounts he was using. Cant recall who the interview was with but sure it was on youtube. He was just using average amounts of test and deca if i recall. Nothing like some fools taking grams and grams.


Rule 1 with bodybuilding : Pros and ex-pros talk bullsheeit about gear. Disregard immediately.


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## stone14 (Mar 24, 2005)

I think the less genetically gifted you are, the more enhancers you need


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## funkdocta (May 29, 2013)

Huntingground said:


> Rule 1 with bodybuilding : Pros and ex-pros talk bullsheeit about gear. Disregard immediately.


Well mostly yeah haha! Phil Heath talks the most bull**** but then he still has to try and keep his sponsors and ****


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## GolfDelta (Jan 5, 2010)

funkdocta said:


> yeah hence i said "I think"....


Fair enough lol but do you really think all Pro's use pharma?I think (pure conjecture :tongue: ) that a lot in the UK are probably involved in UG labs themselves so for them it's basically homebrew.


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## funkdocta (May 29, 2013)

GolfDelta said:


> Fair enough lol but do you really think all Pro's use pharma?I think (pure conjecture :tongue: ) that a lot in the UK are probably involved in UG labs themselves so for them it's basically homebrew.


As far as test and deca go i think its quite plausible. But yeah they will have brewers offering them top notch brews, not the **** we get


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## Chelsea (Sep 19, 2009)

Huntingground said:


> Most famous would be Mentzer I suppose, both of the brothers dead and Mike should have won mr O in 1980. Rumours about amphetamines and other drugs though for Mike.
> 
> Munzer.
> 
> ...


True but like you say Mentzer there were plenty of rumours of his reccy use being high which could explain a lot.

Munzer was well known for using an absolute shed load and Jon-Pall I imagine it was something hereditary as he was very young.

Daz thankfully is alive 

I get what you're saying mate but the vast majority of pro's are alive and well, its only the odd ones that have died young.

Some pro footballers have dropped dead on the pitch during a match, sometimes it is just fate.


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## GolfDelta (Jan 5, 2010)

funkdocta said:


> As far as test and deca go i think its quite plausible. But yeah they will have brewers offering them top notch brews, not the **** we get


Agree.Anyway we have went off topic a bit,I agree with the video about doses and that the Pros are genetic freaks.


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## Chelsea (Sep 19, 2009)

funkdocta said:


> As far as test and deca go i think its quite plausible. But yeah they will have brewers offering them top notch brews, *not the **** we get *


Your telling me the pro's don't use BSI? :lol:


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## mrwright (Oct 22, 2013)

Ive heard kai greene uses a special grapefruit injection.......


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## funkdocta (May 29, 2013)

Chelsea said:


> Your telling me the pro's don't use BSI? :lol:


Nah they defo use Fuerza!


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## Guest (Feb 14, 2014)

Chelsea said:


> True but like you say Mentzer there were plenty of rumours of his reccy use being high which could explain a lot.
> 
> Munzer was well known for using an absolute shed load and Jon-Pall I imagine it was something hereditary as he was very young.
> 
> ...


If you wiki andreas munzer and read the death section its amazing how he lasted so long.

There was reports of all sorts as you say Phil about Mentzer even drinking his own urine towards the end.

To Mentzers credit there are a few quotes out there about his aas usage.

Sound similar to what Dorian is quoted to have taken tbh.


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## Leetflex (Jan 9, 2014)

What a load of rubbish. People believing this sales man is telling to how far humanity has to go before we are able to elect decent politicians to rule over us....


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## Wheyman (Sep 6, 2011)

Iknopw a few pro's and some wont use hgh ect for fear of inlarged internal organs, some will. But it is genetics and desire that pits them as the best otherwise anyone who trained, ate perfectly and took the right doses would be up there. But they arent. I go running but ill never been a olympian, genetics did not make me that way


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## nightshiftboy (Apr 26, 2011)

Mike Matarazzo gave a candid interview on his usage/health issues. He explained he was healthy as a horse to the point where his Doctor used to give him a quizzical look as if to say 'why do you even come here as you're so healthy'. ... Then boom, 3 heart attacks.

He admits to gear and Growth usage but explains he never touched slin. Although he also admits to doing 'unspeakable things to his body' the night before shows he blames the heavy intake of pounds of red meat a day and no fruit or veg as the main contributing factor to his heart attacks.


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## Bad Alan (Dec 30, 2010)

Wheyman said:


> Iknopw a few pro's and some wont use hgh ect for fear of inlarged internal organs


Don't believe that......


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## Tekken (Feb 8, 2014)

threads like these bring out all the guys who "know some pros" lol


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## Bigh260782 (Feb 13, 2014)

Yeah and a **** full of hgh


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## TheOne1983 (Feb 7, 2014)

who cares what anyones on. Ive been hearing the same about myself always reverts back to steroids, it really is just a normal small mans excuse. I always do low doses and get cut up at 105kg


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## cas (Jan 9, 2011)

I think the pros are on a fvck load of sh1t. Read Paul B's stuff.

I believe peds are the key to size. Genetics play the roll of how big you are able to get, the shape and size of the muscle and of course how the body looks at that size. Some look blocky, some look very aesthetic......that's genetics.


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## Dieseldave (Jul 8, 2013)

Spawn of Haney said:


> If you wiki andreas munzer and read the death section its amazing how he lasted so long.


Holy sh1t!!!


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## Theorist (Jun 18, 2013)

No it's called lying. Just as a lot of us here probably claim natural, they obviously can't so lie about their doses. That doesn't take away from the fact that the best bb'ers obviously have top tier genetics on top of that.


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## big_jim_87 (Jul 9, 2009)

Bad Alan said:


> Don't believe that......


Nor me...


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## Deadcalm (Aug 9, 2013)

The only situation where I believe genetics really plays a major role is in your body shape. For example, if your lats connect in quite deep behind your armpit, then they're never going to look as wide as someone where their lats are connected a little further out. Genetics also play a key role in pectoral shape, abdominal shape and a lot of other body parts.

Another area where it's important is body fat. Some people hold on to fat much easier and also store it in undesirable places. There's little you can do about it.

I actually don't think that genetics play such a big role in the amount of size you can gain as AAS allow you to push right through any genetic ceiling. If you blast and cruise on the right sort of compounds and combine that with progressive overload training and the right diet, then I don't think there's much of a limit as to how big you go.

I think a lot of people make the mistake of progressively overloading with AAS, thinking that they need to take more each time to keep up the gains. No one keeps gaining as well as they do on their first cycle, but the same dose of that first cycle will still put you in a highly anabolic state and allow you to keep growing at a steady speed compared to natural training. As long as people give their receptors some time to clear out, I reckon that 500mg of test per week will keep gains pretty high for a fair few years, allowing most guys to grow to a bloody big size.

AAS is only the key which unlocks the POTENTIAL to keep growing at such a rate. Diet and training is what will keep the gains up.


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## sauliuhas (Dec 29, 2008)

I suppose with the right contacts, u can achieve something, starting from docs, gear supliers, pro trainers etc..


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## J4MES (Jul 28, 2013)

TheOne1983 said:


> who cares what anyones on. Ive been hearing the same about myself always reverts back to steroids, it really is just a normal small mans excuse. I always do low doses and get cut up at 105kg


What do you call low dose?


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## Smitch (Dec 29, 2008)

Huntingground said:


> *Their genetics can't be that good as lots of them drop dead pretty early.*
> 
> *
> *
> ...


Maybe it's more the fact that they just respond to gear really well than they are some kind of genetic freak?


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## Deadcalm (Aug 9, 2013)

The problem with using AAS to break past your genetic potential is that your body was never developed to handle maintaining that much muscle. The heart, kidneys and liver are all under far more stress than usual as they need to support such a large amount of mass.

It's basically similar to being morbidly obese. Fat tissue and muscle tissue both need a blood supply, need nutrients, need metabolites removed and also need to deal with the constant birth and death of new cells which need to be cleaned away by the organs. In fact, larger amounts of muscle are more likely to stress the body than equal amounts of fat as muscle tissue is far more metabolically active. That's why obese people can go up to 400lbs with huge body fat percentages. If you had a 400lb man with low body fat (so his body was mostly muscle) then he'd die pretty quickly.

It isn't the actual steroids which kill people. It's putting on more muscle than your body is naturally able to cope with. Over years and years, the stress on the vital organs takes it's toll.


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## luther1 (Jul 31, 2011)

When I stayed in America I had an apartment next door to a pro who was there to help train the Jacksonville Jaguars and I discussed loads with him and take it from me they shovel it in and mainly to overcome [email protected] genetics


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## B.I.G (Jun 23, 2011)

I do believe there are some genetic freaks that respond well to smaller doses etc. however I don't believe that's for all of them at the top level.

I know someone who competes over here in the UK. Did very well at the British last year and doing a few foreign shows this year. He speaks to a few pros and he's 100% honest with me.

Last year my friend filmed with Zack Khan, off camera he spoke to Zack Khan about gear etc. He told him what he was taking, Zacks reply was, 'see what you take in 12 weeks, double it and take it for 6 weeks" He likes SHICS. Using high doses for a short period then switch to other compounds.

Also just to add, whilst filming with Jay Cutler, Cutler told my friend that he and Dennis Wolf use follistatin. He believed it worked well injected into the specific site. Yet most people don't even bother using this. I guess it might be down to getting legit stuff.

I had to say the pros names otherwise people would ask and would dismiss it otherwise. I won't mention my friends name.


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## m575 (Apr 4, 2010)

Spawn of Haney said:


> If you wiki andreas munzer and read the death section its amazing how he lasted so long.


Exactly. Doesn't sound like low dose side effects to me


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## 2004mark (Oct 26, 2013)

I'm pretty sure to be the top 1% of any sport you need to have good/excellent genetics (in relation to the sport). You then have to push every other factor as far as you can... so for a bb'er that would be training, diet, PED's and posing practice.

Another point... if they didn't use lots of gear how come they are so much bigger now than 30/40 years ago?

Edit: Pushing gear usage to the extreme doesn't necessarily mean 10g a week... just like taking training to the extreme wouldn't mean training 10 hours a day.


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## B.I.G (Jun 23, 2011)

2004mark said:


> Edit: Pushing gear usage to the extreme doesn't necessarily mean 10g a week... just like taking training to the extreme wouldn't mean training 10 hours a day.


Exactly that.. I don't believe they use crazy doses but just high doses.

And anyway, if they did high doses and did regular blood tests for the main things, as long as everything was ok, why wouldn't they use high doses.


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## TheOne1983 (Feb 7, 2014)

Most of my courses are 600 test, 200 tren e. or 7-800 test on its own.



M82000 said:


> What do you call low dose?


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## 2004mark (Oct 26, 2013)

B.I.G said:


> Exactly that.. I don't believe they use crazy doses but just high doses.
> 
> And anyway, if they did high doses and did regular blood tests for the main things, as long as everything was ok, why wouldn't they use high doses.


I'm sure it varies from person to person.

I'm just dreaming here... but some may try to play it clever with exotic cycles devised by chemists... others might just throw the kitchen sink at it.

But I'm sure both groups exploit it as much as they possibly can.


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## Huntingground (Jan 10, 2010)

Deadcalm said:


> The problem with using AAS to break past your genetic potential is that your body was never developed to handle maintaining that much muscle. The heart, kidneys and liver are all under far more stress than usual as they need to support such a large amount of mass.
> 
> It's basically similar to being morbidly obese. Fat tissue and muscle tissue both need a blood supply, need nutrients, need metabolites removed and also need to deal with the constant birth and death of new cells which need to be cleaned away by the organs. In fact, larger amounts of muscle are more likely to stress the body than equal amounts of fat as muscle tissue is far more metabolically active. That's why obese people can go up to 400lbs with huge body fat percentages. If you had a 400lb man with low body fat (so his body was mostly muscle) then he'd die pretty quickly.
> 
> It isn't the actual steroids which kill people. It's putting on more muscle than your body is naturally able to cope with. Over years and years, the stress on the vital organs takes it's toll.


I know @ConP believes this - it is the extra mass which causes stress on the organs not the gear or training.

I believe it is a combination of factors including extreme gear usage


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## Mark2021 (Apr 13, 2012)

Good video and genetics does play a massive part

These guys just respond far better to gear and don't need as much as people think

Still though, I love hearing crazy cycles. It makes me bumhole wet


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## ConP (Aug 18, 2013)

Huntingground said:


> I know @ConP believes this - it is the extra mass which causes stress on the organs not the gear or training.
> 
> I believe it is a combination of factors including extreme gear usage


Yes the extra mass puts a huge strain on the system.

Fat is actually less damaging IMO as for the most part it's not active.

Muscles are constantly working and putting a strain on the system.

Hence why I now walk around at 190lb and not 250lb.....longevity is more important than just being huge for me.

That said you can look awesome and not be that heavy this is why mens physique is so popular!


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## fastcar_uk (Jan 30, 2013)

maybe the pros don't use as much gear once they reach their max size...but they sure as sh1t do to get there....good genetics blah blah..seeing top guys onstage at 3% bf at 20+ stone is not achieved on 500mg of test e a week!

there's been countless threads on here about this before, the last one seemed general consensus was more gear was better than less.


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## MRENIGMA (Apr 29, 2011)

Quite a refreshing vid


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## MRENIGMA (Apr 29, 2011)

Swear he said if you come off then your gonna lose it all, you have to stay on, and your an idiot for thinking you can stay big Off of steroids


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## need2bodybuild (May 11, 2011)

MRENIGMA said:


> Swear he said if you come off then your gonna lose it all, you have to stay on, and your an idiot for thinking you can stay big Off of steroids


You sound surprised?


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## MRENIGMA (Apr 29, 2011)

need2bodybuild said:


> You sound surprised?


I liked to think you can hold size after discontinuing AAS, and you wouldn't lose it all, must be where I'm going wrong, swear I also read time on = time off, must of misread it


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## fastcar_uk (Jan 30, 2013)

MRENIGMA said:


> I liked to think you can hold size after discontinuing AAS, and you wouldn't lose it all, must be where I'm going wrong, swear I also read time on = time off, must of misread it


Re flex wheeler, Dorian Yates, paul dillet, Kevin levrone.... All monsters when competing.. No gear no size. Back to natty size I'm afraid.


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## MRENIGMA (Apr 29, 2011)

It is All about gear then.


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## B.I.G (Jun 23, 2011)

ConP said:


> Yes the extra mass puts a huge strain on the system.
> 
> Fat is actually less damaging IMO as for the most part it's not active.
> 
> ...


Do you reckon it's anything to do with the crazy offseason weight to show ready weight difference? As in, some pros drop 30-40lbs+ when dieting for a show and I've noticed a few of the pros who have died young are the guys who get to crazy weights off season and drop quite a bit for a show.


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## dannyp90 (Aug 21, 2011)

IGotTekkers said:


> marc lobliner is a good guy, very well respected in the BB circles. Jerry Ward from Bios3 made a video response to this which got posted in my facebook, and we ended up having a slanging match over his claims about raws and ugl gear, then he apologised and now we are chums lol.
> 
> check out Van Brah aswell mate he does the youtube fitness news, he is ****ing quality, he has got that face you just wanna kiss


What was you arguing about specifically with ugls etc


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## Tinytom (Sep 16, 2005)

I ran a thread a few years ago where I listed my exact gear use. I won the show but people PMd me after asking me what my 'real' usage was.

Can't win. The thread is still on here. From 2008 I think.


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## ConP (Aug 18, 2013)

B.I.G said:


> Do you reckon it's anything to do with the crazy offseason weight to show ready weight difference? As in, some pros drop 30-40lbs+ when dieting for a show and I've noticed a few of the pros who have died young are the guys who get to crazy weights off season and drop quite a bit for a show.


Rebound around shows is terrible if you're not careful!

First show I gained 30lb in 3 days.

Huge water retention nose bleeds sweating through 15 shirts in one night...must have been close to organ failure.

A slower approach always wins.


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## IGotTekkers (Jun 6, 2012)

dannyp90 said:


> What was you arguing about specifically with ugls etc


Jerry was saying how pro's basicaly only use pharma and only pharma is good and all ugl are underdosed ****e. He basicaly said that ugl test is only 25% of what it should be.. people are gonna watch that and think "oh so if i want 1g im actually gonna need 4g of test. And they will harm themselves. So i had it out with him a little. We took it to pm and resolved the issue. He is an alright guy he was just missinformed and blanket statementing.


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## Mark2021 (Apr 13, 2012)

Tinytom said:


> I ran a thread a few years ago where I listed my exact gear use. I won the show but people PMd me after asking me what my 'real' usage was.
> 
> Can't win. The thread is still on here. From 2008 I think.


It's just how it is mate. People expect to see people using crazy amounts and think gear is better than food!


----------



## Guest (Feb 15, 2014)

Tinytom said:


> I ran a thread a few years ago where I listed my exact gear use. I won the show but people PMd me after asking me what my 'real' usage was.
> 
> Can't win. The thread is still on here. From 2008 I think.


Exact gear use in your life Tom, or what you used prepping for the show etc?


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## MRENIGMA (Apr 29, 2011)

Mark2021 said:


> It's just how it is mate. People expect to see people using crazy amounts and think gear is better than food!


Do tell


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## bail (Mar 19, 2010)

Chelsea said:


> Ok, I've just watched this and to be honest I usually avoid videos like this but the guy actually seemed to raise some really good points and to be fair I believe him, im sure that the pro's aren't on the crazy cycles that most think they are on and that genetics really do play a massive part because like the dude said you could take all the best pharma grade gear in the world and you still wouldn't look like Phil Heath in the same way that if you played football your whole life you wouldn't be as good as Messi or Ronaldo, its just something that these guys have genetically that 99% of the population do not.
> 
> Anyway enjoy the vid, the guy comes across a little shouty but he has a point:


With some people def true look a big black Steve 2ml test 400 1ml tren ace once a week!!, and at his peak not many on this forum bigger than him if any


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## bail (Mar 19, 2010)

Tinytom said:


> I ran a thread a few years ago where I listed my exact gear use. I won the show but people PMd me after asking me what my 'real' usage was.
> 
> Can't win. The thread is still on here. From 2008 I think.


What's the thread called tom would like to find it


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## Tinytom (Sep 16, 2005)

Spawn of Haney said:


> Exact gear use in your life Tom, or what you used prepping for the show etc?


What I used for that show.


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## Tinytom (Sep 16, 2005)

bail said:


> What's the thread called tom would like to find it


Probably something like 'prep for Ukbff Portsmouth' or something like that. It would be in the 'shows pros and inspiration' forum.


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## MRENIGMA (Apr 29, 2011)

Tinytom said:


> What I used for that show.


Do tell do tell 

100mg prop and 100mg tren ace EOD? I've spoke to a few top amateurs and they say that's it.


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## Tinytom (Sep 16, 2005)

MRENIGMA said:


> Do tell do tell
> 
> 100mg prop and 100mg tren ace EOD? I've spoke to a few top amateurs and they say that's it.


Ha ha not a chance.

Probably more like a Tren prop mast mix with some var and win thrown in.

Plus the secret drug that only winners are allowed to use.


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## SK50 (Apr 7, 2013)

If the top 10 in the olympia are not blasting much gear, logic would dictate that the more competitive ones who are not winning would start to blast heavier, get bigger, and up the ante for everyone (which has clearly been the case over the years, as they get bigger and bigger as we go - it's not the training or diet methods that have improved, it's the drugs).

Obviously, as with any drug, there are diminishing returns. But to assume that phil heath takes low dosages because he doesn't need to take much seems absurd. The temptation would be there for him to simply blast more gear and completely dominate instead of having a close call with Kai each year.

This makes it very hard for me to believe that the guys at the top are on moderate dosages. The guy should have given an example cycle in the video of what he considers a typical IFBB dosage to put things in perspective.

Oh yeah, he also overlooks the fact that most of the guys he speaks to would have LIED to him because their doping protocol is their best kept secret.

Either way I think his overall message is important: Small guys with no intention of turning pro and making a career out of it do NOT need to blast grams of gear for any reason.


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## MRENIGMA (Apr 29, 2011)

Tinytom said:


> Ha ha not a chance.
> 
> Probably more like a Tren prop mast mix with some var and win thrown in.
> 
> Plus the secret drug that only winners are allowed to use.


Theirs a secret drug ?


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## Tinytom (Sep 16, 2005)

MRENIGMA said:


> Theirs a secret drug ?


Yes. Can't tell you because you're not a winner


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## MRENIGMA (Apr 29, 2011)

Tinytom said:


> Yes. Can't tell you because you're not a winner


Ha ha Tosser! 

I'll have my day, might not be till I'm 50 though lol


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## MRSTRONG (Apr 18, 2009)

Tinytom said:


> I ran a thread a few years ago where I listed my exact gear use. I won the show but people PMd me after asking me what my 'real' usage was.
> 
> Can't win. The thread is still on here. From 2008 I think.


yes but you`re only a midget so 500mg test to you is like 1g :lol:


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## Tinytom (Sep 16, 2005)

SK50 said:


> If the top 10 in the olympia are not blasting much gear, logic would dictate that the more competitive ones who are not winning would start to blast heavier, get bigger, and up the ante for everyone (which has clearly been the case over the years, as they get bigger and bigger as we go - it's not the training or diet methods that have improved, it's the drugs).
> 
> Obviously, as with any drug, there are diminishing returns. But to assume that phil heath takes low dosages because he doesn't need to take much seems absurd. The temptation would be there for him to simply blast more gear and completely dominate instead of having a close call with Kai each year.
> 
> ...


That does make some sense but there is a question of sides from excessive use that actually are detrimental to physique competition.

So it's not always the case as seen with some of the lower ranked pros who are chasing the top guys and using more which cause more sides.

Also doses are relative. I would say 2g a week is a moderate dose for a 20 stone guy. For me it's top end at being 15 stone.

If you're bigger you can absorb more.

I think the argument is people think they need 2g a week to grow. You don't. But when you are at the pro level that's a standard. But it's a standard achieved from years of incremental dosing. I would say a lot of guys on here using 2g a week are not at the level that needs that amount and could address other things first.


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## MRENIGMA (Apr 29, 2011)

ewen said:


> yes but you`re only a midget so 500mg test to you is like 1g :lol:


Lol


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## Tinytom (Sep 16, 2005)

ewen said:


> yes but you`re only a midget so 500mg test to you is like 1g :lol:


Kind of like how I don't need fat burners but you need a whole tub a day?


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## MRSTRONG (Apr 18, 2009)

Tinytom said:


> Kind of like how I don't need fat burners but you need a whole tub a day?


DNP couldn`t touch this :lol:


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## Leetflex (Jan 9, 2014)

SK50 said:


> If the top 10 in the olympia are not blasting much gear, logic would dictate that the more competitive ones who are not winning would start to blast heavier, get bigger, and up the ante for everyone (which has clearly been the case over the years, as they get bigger and bigger as we go - it's not the training or diet methods that have improved, it's the drugs).
> 
> Obviously, as with any drug, there are diminishing returns. But to assume that phil heath takes low dosages because he doesn't need to take much seems absurd. The temptation would be there for him to simply blast more gear and completely dominate instead of having a close call with Kai each year.
> 
> ...


I agree with everything you said, excellent post. I hate it when people say you don't need much gear to grow when we are talking about pro dosages. It is retarded logic to think the guys at the top who are competing for big money are not doing everything possible to win and win clearly i.e. blow everyone away. Do people truly think they are like "oh wait maybe I will do 750mg of test instead of 1000mg..maybe 1000mg is too much?" lol.. They drown their receptors until either the gains stop, they run out of money or the sides are too much.

Genetics obviously, but one other very important feature of genetics is what kind of sides they experience once they are close to a dose where there isn't much more gains to be had due to their response. Even if the winner thinks he doesn't have to take as much as the 4th or 5th place competitors from last year to place in front of them, he will still want to maximize his ped intake just in case someone else does. He will also want to be clearly better than the rest to make a greater legacy and more money.

Anyway the top 00.0001% of the human genetic elite from the past have already maxed out the drugs that were available. Anyone else with equal genes will have to do the same to match the guys from the past. The only way this "sport" moves forwards is when new drugs are created, like steroids then gh/slin etc.

Keep the gym rats from ifbb pro's separate.


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## Deadcalm (Aug 9, 2013)

Huntingground said:


> I know @ConP believes this - it is the extra mass which causes stress on the organs not the gear or training.
> 
> I believe it is a combination of factors including extreme gear usage


In my view, there are a number of ways in which someone could become ill or die from steroid use:

1). Too much muscle mass causing long-term stress on the heart, liver and kidneys, which all have to work much harder than usual to maintain that much metabolically active muscle.

2). Abusing liver toxic steroids (i.e. many types of oral steroid), thereby causing liver damage or failure.

3). Taking too many steroids (or taking them for too long) and thereby causing complications which can eventually contribute to health problems, i.e. enlarged heart, high blood pressure, high hematocrit etc.

I suppose the key point here is that no one ever dies directly from steroids, i.e. due to a steroid overdose. There's always some factor of either abusing them or using them to push your body too far which then sets a precedent for life-threatening problems.

In short, it isn't the steroids. It's what you do with them. It's perfectly possible to take steroids on and off throughout your life and have absolutely no negative health issues from it.


----------



## reza85 (Jan 11, 2009)

Totall bullox to low doses, take one look at there face and u know how much gear these guys are on,

Also why are they all dropping dead at a young age I'm sure is not from trt doses,

And how much peoples genetic limitations could have changed from

Arnold era ?


----------



## Deadcalm (Aug 9, 2013)

Leetflex said:


> I agree with everything you said, excellent post. I hate it when people say you don't need much gear to grow when we are talking about pro dosages. It is retarded logic to think the guys at the top who are competing for big money are not doing everything possible to win and win clearly i.e. blow everyone away. Do people truly think they are like "oh wait maybe I will do 750mg of test instead of 1000mg..maybe 1000mg is too much?" lol.. They drown their receptors until either the gains stop, they run out of money or the sides are too much.
> 
> Genetics obviously, but one other very important feature of genetics is what kind of sides they experience once they are close to a dose where there isn't much more gains to be had due to their response. Even if the winner thinks he doesn't have to take as much as the 4th or 5th place competitors from last year to place in front of them, he will still want to maximize his ped intake just in case someone else does. He will also want to be clearly better than the rest to make a greater legacy and more money.
> 
> ...


Top-tier bodybuilders will have physicians and coaches who control their steroid intake. Look at Lance Armstrong and his doping scandal. Do you really think that he decided what to take? At the world class level these bodybuilders and athletes have teams of experts dictating everything for them.

Plus, don't forget that these bodybuilders often have ample access to pharma growth hormone and insulin which is also administered and controlled by an expert. You can only do so much with anabolic steroids, but taking those two alongside the steroids over years and years will make a big difference.

I think pro bodybuilders do take a lot of gear, but the reason they criticise high doses is because, whilst they might be taking that dose to maintain themselves at a ripped 280-300lbs, they also see amateurs taking similar doses when they're 50-70lbs lighter. If a 280lb pro bodybuilder takes in 1.5g of test per week, they're going to laugh at any 220lb amateur taking in anywhere near the same sort of dose.


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## Leetflex (Jan 9, 2014)

Here we go. Mike Morris, around 3600mg/week not counting orals. 1:56.


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## Smoog (Dec 29, 2012)

I like it when certain pro's come out with their 'dosages' and expect everyone to take this as gospel, which are usually pure bollocks. You can tell they lie as the doses and compounds make no sense or are under dosed to what they should be.


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## Deadcalm (Aug 9, 2013)

Leetflex said:


> Here we go. Mike Morris, around 3600mg/week not counting orals. 1:56.


I suppose that 3.5g per week isn't really THAT much. A high test base (i.e. 1.5g test per week or maybe more) plus a couple of other compounds would leave individual dosages which are still very high, but not ridiculously huge.


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## aad123 (Dec 7, 2011)

I'm sure this may have been covered already but the question I want to ask is that if people are stating hugely over the top doses that are said to be used by the elite bodybuilders and then youngsters are finding this information and copying it would it not be a good idea for these elite guys to share exactly what they are using ? This way the youngsters who look up these guys would have a realistic view and wouldn't start on huge doses. Because the elite bodybuilders are so secretive about exactly what they use and how much it can only lead to speculation. You read a lot where people say " well I know ??? and he only uses X amount" and someone else will say "I heard that he uses Y amount" surely if the person in question was to state what they were using it would remove all the BS and people would get a true picture. Its not like they would be encouraging people to start using because these youngsters are going to do it any way.


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## geeby112 (Mar 15, 2008)

I'd say they took a lot to overcome their natural genetics, I'm sure with their diets , lifestyle, training, meds etc you'd be surprised what you may accomplish yourself. Most of us are not disciplined enough to live how they do.


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## bumont (Aug 18, 2012)

Someone who's revenue relies on their physique is not going to run a ml of this and that a week. Even if there was the slightest chance that using 2/3/4/5000mg/week of test could increase muscle growth they'd do it without a heartbeat.

There's so much bull in this industry, do you think of all things they will be truthful about their doses?

Yes perfect diet and training do play a role to some extent, but you're disillusion if you think that huge doses of PED's aren't what's bringing the monsters to the stage we're seeing now. Sadly the argument will always be "but that guy has freak genetics so 500mg test is all he needs". It's unlikely that we'll ever know the true doses of most pro's, there is just too much secrecy mostly related to the sale of supplements, clothing etc.


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## MRENIGMA (Apr 29, 2011)

Was their a Pro called Paul house? Was telling my mate about this thread and he was saying he knew a guy, that knew him lol and he said Paul house or whoever he is stated with Chris Cormier and they would just load up on as much as they could find a place to inject a 5ml syringe, all day everyday, sat in eating, injecting and playing the play station. I dunno, everyone names drop but it's not hard to imagine, theirs been alot of kidney failures, flex wheeler, Tom prince, Shaun "dinosaur" Davies.....


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## digitalis (Sep 13, 2011)

John Andrew said:


> Hi,
> 
> I wrote to this guy, I told him he was a loud mouthed, self opinionated, foul mouthed ignorant piece of garbage with a single figure IQ! Everything about him is offensive.
> 
> ...


Agreed, all it was/is is a scam youtube channel with "outrageous" opinions to sell his bull**** supplements.


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## Tinytom (Sep 16, 2005)

MRENIGMA said:


> Was their a Pro called Paul house? Was telling my mate about this thread and he was saying he knew a guy, that knew him lol and he said Paul house or whoever he is stated with Chris Cormier and they would just load up on as much as they could find a place to inject a 5ml syringe, all day everyday, sat in eating, injecting and playing the play station. I dunno, everyone names drop but it's not hard to imagine, theirs been alot of kidney failures, flex wheeler, Tom prince, Shaun "dinosaur" Davies.....


Flex wheeler has a hereditary kidney diseases. NOT caused by steroids.

Tom Prince overdosed a lot on pain killers. NOT caused by steroids.

Don't know about shaun.


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## geeby112 (Mar 15, 2008)

They lie about dosages to make everyone think they're super human who hardly need anything to grow.


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## aad123 (Dec 7, 2011)

geeby112 said:


> They lie about dosages to make everyone think they're super human who hardly need anything to grow.


I was thinking the same myself.


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## Tekken (Feb 8, 2014)

Andreas Munzer's last cycle from Anabolics 2005

This is the last cycle that Andreas Munzer took before he died

Weeks 1-10

ephedrine

aspirin

clenbuterol

valium

captagon-- scheduled 1 drug in the US, meaning no legitimate medical use-- it is an amphetamine-type stimulant--

cytomel

Weeks 1-5

500mg daily of test enanthate

152mg daily of parabolan

150mg daily of dianabol

150mg daily of halotestin

20 IU daily of HGH

20 IU daily of Insulin

Weeks 6-8

300mg daily of masteron

152mg daily of parabolan

250mg daily of winstrol tabs

150mg daily of halotestin

50mg daily of winstrol inj

24 IU daily of HGH

Weeks 9-10

200mg daily of masteron

100mg daily of winny inj

200mg daily of halotestin

400mg daily of winny tabs

24 IU daily of HGH

Insulin daily

IGF-1 daily

Days 1-3 leading up to show

aldactone, lasix

pfft, seems like my standard summer blast


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## MRENIGMA (Apr 29, 2011)

Tinytom said:


> Flex wheeler has a hereditary kidney diseases. NOT caused by steroids.
> 
> Tom Prince overdosed a lot on pain killers. NOT caused by steroids.
> 
> Don't know about shaun.


No point in isolating examples I'm not anti steroids lol they are a just a few the list goes on.......I'm sure I'm sure that flex would of had kidney problems if he hadnt of taken god knows what....but we'll NEVER know.


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## infernal0988 (Jun 16, 2011)

geeby112 said:


> They lie about dosages to make everyone think they're super human who hardly need anything to grow.


Ofcourse they lie its their job to lie watch bostin loyd the untold truth series om YouTube that guy tells it just how it is.


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## Fishheadsoup (Apr 15, 2013)

Remember when Dorian came out with his dosages and everyone said no way was he only taking that..I still think he was been honest and his genetics were a massive factor to


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## Tinytom (Sep 16, 2005)

MRENIGMA said:


> No point in isolating examples I'm not anti steroids lol they are a just a few the list goes on.......I'm sure I'm sure that flex would of had kidney problems if he hadnt of taken god knows what....but we'll NEVER know.


Not saying that. The threads about gear use so just highlighting that a lot of the issues can come form other things.

Andreas Munzer for example died because of aminogluthamide use that stopped his blood clotting.

Not saying steroids are safe but other drugs come into play.


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## jason7474utd (Oct 12, 2010)

Im of the opinion that its mostly genetics and a pre disposition to be able to take aas and deal with the sides.

If it wasnt we would have a massive group of elite level bodybuilders as everyone can get hold of aas.

But we dont so the top guys must have something that the rest of us dont


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## bumont (Aug 18, 2012)

infernal0988 said:


> Ofcourse they lie its their job to lie watch bostin loyd the untold truth series om YouTube that guy tells it just how it is.


There's so much hate towards Bostin, mostly from delusional natty's who buy tonnes of supplements and lying pros who don't want to be exposed. Just shows the ignorance towards drug use in bodybuilding. Look at bbing.com forums, seems to one of the last forums trying to cling onto the natural lie by banning anyone who mentions AAS.

I think we've all been ignorant to it, when I first started I used to sit around with my mates and discuss what diet and supplements the pros took to get that big. Only in recent years has the general gym population become more aware of drug use because of open forums like this and people like Bostin Lloyd.


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## Hendrix (Sep 16, 2009)

More genetic freaks than steroid heads. I actually believe what Dorian stated, didn't seem to have any reason to hide anything or pull punches.


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## cas (Jan 9, 2011)

Hendrix said:


> More genetic freaks than steroid heads. I actually believe what Dorian stated, didn't seem to have any reason to hide anything or pull punches.


Maybe because he is worried that people will try to copy him, and get hurt in the process?


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## Hendrix (Sep 16, 2009)

cas said:


> Maybe because he is worried that people will try to copy him, and get hurt in the process?


He does talk about that in the interview on London Real. And decides after an meeting with MUscular development to be completely honest in his column. Saying that they weren't completely lightweight doses although not what you'd think.


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## RowRow (Nov 17, 2011)

Tinytom said:


> Not saying that. The threads about gear use so just highlighting that a lot of the issues can come form other things.
> 
> Andreas Munzer for example died because of aminogluthamide use that stopped his blood clotting.
> 
> Not saying steroids are safe but other drugs come into play.


Wasn't Andreas Munzer discovered to have grapefruit sized abscesses on his liver or something along those lines?


----------



## Old n fat (Feb 1, 2014)

Let's say it is genetic , how the hell do you know you have them ???

I bet if I was 10%bf without lifting I'd still be 15 stone I'm only 6ft tall!

So is that an indicator ?

I wish I could find a coach in a local gym to me , I'd dedicate to it and work my **** off to see if I had what you need to get there , but massive ****ed up cycles .... I just don't want that in my life , keep my cycles test based and simple I think..


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## Tekken (Feb 8, 2014)

Old n fat said:


> Let's say it is genetic , how the hell do you know you have them ???
> 
> I bet if I was 10%bf without lifting I'd still be 15 stone I'm only 6ft tall!
> 
> ...


when people say its genetic, they mean your genetic response to steroids. Some people are hyper-responders, which is why you see people gain stupid amounts of muscle of a basic 500mg test cycle. But even these hyper responders are still using a lot of drugs at the top level


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## jake87 (May 7, 2010)

I believe eq, Tren, hgh and especially insulin are the reasons modern bb are not healthy later in life. Most of which the early bb didn't have access to


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## bumont (Aug 18, 2012)

jake87 said:


> I believe eq, Tren, hgh and especially insulin are the reasons modern bb are not healthy later in life. Most of which the early bb didn't have access to


I agree with insulin, there is practically no research on its use in non diabetic people, we have no idea what it's doing. GH in super high doses as well.

I think huge weight fluctuations are up there in the risk factors, especially these power lifters who are 400lbs+ and on huge amounts of AAS.

When I first starting training, the gym and health came hand in hand. As time goes on you realise the true nature of the pursuit of the perfect body. Cardio bunnies using clen/t3/dnp and huge calorie deficits with hours of cardio. Athletes using EPO, AAS and all sorts. BBers taking anything under the sun, fertility meds, abortion drugs, diabetic drugs, unapproved peptides, massive amounts of AAS and GH, purposely causing swelling in muscles, synthol etc. Just about everyone in the gym has taken something or at least considered it, there is so much pressure to look a certain way.

Sort of reminds me of the film Hot Fuzz, on the outside the village looks perfect but is really full of corruption and lies.


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## Old n fat (Feb 1, 2014)

Tekken said:
 

> when people say its genetic, they mean your genetic response to steroids. Some people are hyper-responders, which is why you see people gain stupid amounts of muscle of a basic 500mg test cycle. But even these hyper responders are still using a lot of drugs at the top level


That makes loads of sense !!

I recently did test p only cycle and got strong as **** and grew well !

Felt really effected psychologically and physically by it and I hardly used any just .5 on a 2ml Barrel eod.

Thing is I don't wanna be big ha ha .

Enjoying this thread , keep it going !


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## Hendrix (Sep 16, 2009)

Old n fat said:


> Let's say it is genetic , how the hell do you know you have them ???
> 
> I bet if I was 10%bf without lifting I'd still be 15 stone I'm only 6ft tall!
> 
> ...


Also someone like phil Heath was making stupid gains when he first got started, he says his body really responded to training like a weed even with bad form and what he described as 'canteen food' when he told his first real coach his diet an routine, he reckons the coach couldn't believe the progress he had made and this was still drug free at this point. Phil has gone from basketball player to mr Olympia in less than 7 years, insane


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## Leetflex (Jan 9, 2014)

Hendrix said:


> He does talk about that in the interview on London Real. And decides after an meeting with MUscular development to be completely honest in his column. Saying that they weren't completely lightweight doses although not what you'd think.


If that is what dorian took then why was he much bigger than every single Olympian from the 60's, 70's and 80's. Do you think he had better genetic then Sergio Oliva?


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## MRENIGMA (Apr 29, 2011)

Leetflex said:


> If that is what dorian took then why was he much bigger than every single Olympian from the 60's, 70's and 80's. Do you think he had better genetic then Sergio Oliva?


No...but he trained harder.


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## Hendrix (Sep 16, 2009)

Leetflex said:


> If that is what dorian took then why was he much bigger than every single Olympian from the 60's, 70's and 80's. Do you think he had better genetic then Sergio Oliva?


That's insane. Genetics/Training/Diet/Steroids in that order. Steroids are the cherry on top not the be all. That would mean anyone could be Mr O with enough drugs, just dosent make sense.


----------



## infernal0988 (Jun 16, 2011)

Hendrix said:


> Also someone like phil Heath was making stupid gains when he first got started, he says his body really responded to training like a weed even with bad form and what he described as 'canteen food' when he told his first real coach his diet an routine, he reckons the coach couldn't believe the progress he had made and this was still drug free at this point. Phil has gone from basketball player to mr Olympia in less than 7 years, insane


Imo its a case of amazing genetics & drugs ofcourse diet plays a huge role no doubt, but as the drugs have evolved & dosages gotten bigger ,so have the pros there is no denying that.


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## Tekken (Feb 8, 2014)

Hendrix said:


> That's insane. Genetics/Training/Diet/Steroids in that order. Steroids are the cherry on top not the be all. That would mean anyone could be Mr O with enough drugs, just dosent make sense.


lol no , genetics,steroids, diet, training


----------



## romper stomper (Sep 26, 2012)

> NO-ONE APART FROM THE PRO'S THEMSELVES KNOW THERE IS NO POINT SPECULATING!!!


very true - thats a thread ender really


----------



## Guest (Feb 17, 2014)

Don't really care what and who takes what......there ****ing choice...

Liked the blokes attitude, shame I gotta go to work, couldn't finish video :laugh:


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## Leetflex (Jan 9, 2014)

Hendrix said:


> That's insane. Genetics/Training/Diet/Steroids in that order. Steroids are the cherry on top not the be all. That would mean anyone could be Mr O with enough drugs, just dosent make sense.


What are you talking about? The 1960's 70's 80's bodybuilders HAD the elite genetics, I'm not comparing dorian to joe blogs I'm directly comparing him to other Olympians and even stated Sergio Oliva!. They are not much bigger now due to bro splits and creatine.

To state that steroids are a cherry on top is ridiculous. Are you trolling? Find me one bodybuilder/weightlifter pre 1930's (before testosterone) That look anywhere close to modern bodybuilders.


----------



## Old n fat (Feb 1, 2014)

I watched pumping iron last night (for the first time ) and there training and body shape is so so different .

Watched as lue f loads up a salad bowl with salt before his meal ...

It's funny at the end I thought that's the golden age of bodybuilding (like it had more integrity) but from what I understand they just had so little choice in steroids that they didn't use them as much ? As big a dose?

Nobody seemed to have bloat or acne ??

But they had no more integrity than now, just more limited choice in available compounds ??

I'm sure they all would have taken what ever they needed to win like the pros do now !?

The thing to draw from all that is I suppose , what can be achieved with out the full spectrum of gear we now have !

I don't know mortality rates of those guys but as we know arnie and Lou are both still alive and kicking !!


----------



## Leetflex (Jan 9, 2014)

Old n fat said:


> I watched pumping iron last night (for the first time ) and there training and body shape is so so different .
> 
> Watched as lue f loads up a salad bowl with salt before his meal ...
> 
> ...


They had equal access to many pharma grade steroids from their doctors, there were no fakes! They had it better than now apart from tren, slin, hgh and few others. Now the main problem facing an aspiring bodybuilder is getting legit products! The training, diet etc is in their own control! It is now very important who they know and it is very helpful to socialize in the right circles if they ever want to get on.

Regarding the comment on dosages, there were thousands of genetically gifted athletes taking steroids back in Arnold's time (steroids were not even banned in the Olympics until 1976!), they pushed it to the limit or someone else would! There were guys with acne but most didn't have it really bad, just like we don't see bad acne now in the line up of the Mr O nowadays either. Acne can come from sweating in tight cloths, tanning and meds help.

Their body shape was different, much better wasn't it? Much more unique. Nowadays they pump site injections into body parts that lag and the hgh and slin blows everything up. Almost everyone has big arms and delts now, lol. They cant help the high lat insertions or narrow clavicles or big hips tho! and calves seem to at still be at least mostly genetics and hard work.


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## Hendrix (Sep 16, 2009)

Leetflex said:


> What are you talking about? The 1960's 70's 80's bodybuilders HAD the elite genetics, I'm not comparing dorian to joe blogs I'm directly comparing him to other Olympians and even stated Sergio Oliva!. They are not much bigger now due to bro splits and creatine.
> 
> To state that steroids are a cherry on top is ridiculous. Are you trolling? Find me one bodybuilder/weightlifter pre 1930's (before testosterone) That look anywhere close to modern bodybuilders.


Am I trolling.....erm no mate.

I believe the difference between 70;s BB's and today is the use of slin and GH, doses are probably a little higher and maybe more things stacked, but still don't believe that to be that size and level is due to crazy massive drug amounts and use.

I believe they are genetic freaks probably 1 in 1000, that have an ability to put on muscle, if your really lucky have great proportions and long muscle bellies. Sergio imo was an absolute freak in terms of natural ability.

Now women's BB is a different matter and you can definitely see the difference between Rachel Mclish early Miss O, to today's female Miss O's. Huge difference in drug use.

Also Dorian Yates trained completely against the grain with his 1 set to failure approach, High Intensity stuff. I think their are guys on this forum taking much bigger stacks and amounts of steroids that will never get to Pro level.


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## cas (Jan 9, 2011)

They didn't use as much back in the golden era, due to the fact the drugs where administered by the doctor (injectables at least) and it was harder times back then, they didn't have enough money. Read arnolds book about the hard times and how little money they had, the sport was tiny compared to today.

Todays bodybuilders are bigger because they can afford more DRUGS!

Which is why some bodybuilders who are starting off turn to porn for money. Look at kai he came from nothing, but didn't have the money. ...so turned to porn. Once they start getting sponsored life for them becomes easier


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## Old n fat (Feb 1, 2014)

Leetflex said:


> They had equal access to many pharma grade steroids from their doctors, there were no fakes! They had it better than now apart from tren, slin, hgh and few others. Now the main problem facing an aspiring bodybuilder is getting legit products! The training, diet etc is in their own control! It is now very important who they know and it is very helpful to socialize in the right circles if they ever want to get on.
> 
> Regarding the comment on dosages, there were thousands of genetically gifted athletes taking steroids back in Arnold's time (steroids were not even banned in the Olympics until 1976!), they pushed it to the limit or someone else would! There were guys with acne but most didn't have it really bad, just like we don't see bad acne now in the line up of the Mr O nowadays either. Acne can come from sweating in tight cloths, tanning and meds help.
> 
> Their body shape was different, much better wasn't it? Much more unique. Nowadays they pump site injections into body parts that lag and the hgh and slin blows everything up. Almost everyone has big arms and delts now, lol. They cant help the high lat insertions or narrow clavicles or big hips tho! and calves seem to at still be at least mostly genetics and hard work.


Thanks , I learned a fair bit there ..

I genuinely know very little about the scene then or now .

I like the body shape of arnies time better yes , the modern mutants do impress me but I don't aspire to it at all !

Pumping iron did teach me that your body confirmation does play a huge part in how you will look even at mutant level. Armies wasn't the biggest or most developed , just the best put together ??

I'm

Not really helping this thread as non of what I say is related to original post total !!

Sorry about that.

I'm

Still enjoying the thread tho so keep posting


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## Leetflex (Jan 9, 2014)

Old n fat said:


> Thanks , I learned a fair bit there ..
> 
> I genuinely know very little about the scene then or now .
> 
> ...


Yes I think Arnold was excellent. The size should of stayed there but medicine will keep advancing. I believe the only way to stop this is to create a formula based on height and weight, so say at 6 foot you can only weight a maximum of 105kg! 6'1 108kg, etc. The classic bodybuilding division has something like this already. They for sure will take lots of gear still! But common guys, 280lbs ripped is so bad for your health with what it takes to achieve it. Lets not keep pretending it's all genetics and hard work blaha, this is getting dire and it will keep getting worse when science creates more drugs that can be abused.

But I suppose even if the Mr O changed the main event to be weight restricted. Some other organization will open up a gap in the market which won't be weight restricted because people will want to see them more due to the freak factor.


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## MrTozzy (Nov 6, 2013)

Just saw this. Absolutely love the video. I love people who try to help others filter through the rubbish this sport or hobby produces. I just hate it when people say "do this and you'll get big arms!". It's very much an individual experiment and experience. What I do May or May not work for others. People just have to put in the time to learn their bodies. I'd rather invest a year to learn MYSELF than waste a few years trying to see what of others work will work for me.


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## Tinytom (Sep 16, 2005)

Leetflex said:


> To state that steroids are a cherry on top is ridiculous. Are you trolling? Find me one bodybuilder/weightlifter pre 1930's (before testosterone) That look anywhere close to modern bodybuilders.


That's not really a comparison. The amount that's changed in 90 years is massive.

Not saying gear doesn't play a role but seriously in the last 10-20 years the gear available steroid wise has not changed that much.

There are more available peptides etc and maybe people are using more but the advances in training techniques, nutrition, food sources etc all play a massive role.

There's never just one determining factor.


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## oldskoolcool (Oct 4, 2009)

There are no more steroids available now than in the 60's what makes the freaks now is the 20+ iu hgh igf per day and slin with every meal with this you would only need 1.5-2.5g aas to turn pro.


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## Leetflex (Jan 9, 2014)

Tinytom said:


> That's not really a comparison. The amount that's changed in 90 years is massive.
> 
> Not saying gear doesn't play a role but seriously in the last 10-20 years the gear available steroid wise has not changed that much.
> 
> ...


Yes and you just reconfirm my post. Yes it hasn't changed much in 10 years that is why dorian , ronnie and kai are similar sizes!

Comparing the 1930's bodybuilders to now is fair in the context of what i was referring to because drugs are not just a cherry on top as someone stated! And comparing them NOW to when steroids where not invented is fair when comparing a 100% certain steroid free body to a steroid/gh/slin body! The result is massively more than "a cherry on top".


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## Tinytom (Sep 16, 2005)

Leetflex said:


> Yes and you just reconfirm my post. The gear hasn't changed much in 10 years that is why there dorian , ronnie and kai are similar sizes!
> 
> Comparing the 1930's bodybuilders to now is fair in the context of what i was referring to because drugs are not just a cherry on top as someone stated! And comparing them NOW to when steroids where not invented is fair in comparing a 100% steroid free body to a steroid/gh/slin body! The result is massively more than "a cherry on top".


You've missed the point.

Whey protein shakes weren't around till the 80s. So a comparison with the 1930s isn't valid.


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## Leetflex (Jan 9, 2014)

Tinytom said:


> You've missed the point.
> 
> Whey protein shakes weren't around till the 80s. So a comparison with the 1930s isn't valid.


Haha sure and whey protein is the reason for any gains made over chicken!


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## Leetflex (Jan 9, 2014)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3698202/

Conclusion

Both whey and rice protein isolate administration post resistance exercise improved indices of body composition and exercise performance; however, *there were no differences between the two groups.*

Im sure the same can be said for chicken or other high quality protein compared to whey. This is only 8 weeks but there are many studies that show there isn't really much difference in muscle gain as long as it is quality protein.

However there is a study done for around 12week of test at 500mg a week. The group that didn't train and that were taking testosterone gained more muscle than the group that did train and were natural! Now, IMO the gains will stop from the testosterone group that doesn't train and the natural group that did train will overtake them. But just goes to show!


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## Tinytom (Sep 16, 2005)

Ok great a study.

You have this fascination with drugs.

You are saying that the only reason bbers have got bigger is because of gear.

When actually there's been improvements in all areas over the last 90 years.

I'm not arguing that gear is not part of it. But to say it is the only reason is a bit blinkered.


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## MRENIGMA (Apr 29, 2011)

Too many variables....I doubt they dreamed of training like Dorian or branch warren 90 years ago, everything moves on, athletics, Motorsport, world records, and bodybuilding, mainly due to technology which effects every aspect including drugs, but this is one variable that has progressed, all elements have progressed with drugs also


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## Leetflex (Jan 9, 2014)

Tinytom said:


> Ok great a study.
> 
> You have this fascination with drugs.
> 
> ...


I am not saying it is the only reason, I am saying it is the main significant reason, yes.

Different training routines, whey protein, creatine, post workouts, intra workouts and pre workouts is not the reason for a Markus Ruhl. Those supplements make absolutely hardly any difference over food. What advances? Training? Almost all bodybuilders train differently: Dorian's one set HIT, Lee Priest's pump sets, Kevin Levrone on a push/pull/legs twice a week, Pakulski and his high frequency, some even train body parts everyday! This is evidence that training is a variable that is all over the place and is not a constant, therefore it cannot be a contributing factor to the size difference now. *New drugs is a constant variable because they didn't use that method before because they were not invented!*

Whey protein and creatine don't build 50+lbs of muscle more than what food alone can do! Some pro's even admit to not liking protein shakes or using creatine! I think we know from taking both that they don't make a significant difference anything close to 50+lbs!

*So what are these new methods that these bodybuilders are all now doing to build so much more muscle from generation to generation?*


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## Leetflex (Jan 9, 2014)

And btw I have stated that genetics play a huge role, and so does training hard! Look at tom platz legs he had the genetics and trained them hard (he was built for squats and squating hard is a major contribution to his gains!) However what would tom platz legs look like now? Or what would they look like pre 1930's? I reckon they would look significantly different but they would still be the best legs in the era he would be in!

And yes tom platz legs look better than guys on 10g of gear with crappy leg genetics and poor training. It's not alllll drugs, but when the best of the best compete its chemical warfare!

*Bill Kazmier himself said on you tube during an old video, that at the top, it is who has the best doctor!*  Now what he really means is how important it is, and everyone needs to be doing everything close to optimal to beat the other guys who also have great genetics and are training hard!

*31.35 mins in, enjoy!*


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## Tinytom (Sep 16, 2005)

You seem to not understand what I said.

You said 'look at the difference between a 1930s Bber and now' and referenced steroids as the reason. ONLY STEROIDS AND PEDS

What I'm saying is that yes drugs have made a difference but there are so many factors with new advances in nutrition and what we know about how the body works that it's misinformed to say that steroids are the ONLY thing that has made people better.

You then contradict yourself and admit that hard training and genetics play a role. The genetics of a species can change dramatically over 90 years which is evident from people living longer vas being able to combat diseases better. Yes this is also down to advances in medical science but also a greater understanding of how the body works.

So I don't really see why you are getting so irate. I said that drugs were a factor. But they aren't the only factor as you purported then contradicted.

I'm not so silly as to say gear isn't a factor. Of course it is. But it's interesting how the majority of the 'more gear is better' crowd are not in the 'has a physique that can step on stage' I doubt you'll find many competitive guys that would state that only gear is a factor because they've actually been at the point where they realise it's a lot of other things.

I'd welcome input from people with reasoned arguments not just the 'they must be taking loads cos they are massive' crowd


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## sadman (Jul 24, 2013)

Leetflex said:


> I am not saying it is the only reason, I am saying it is the main significant reason, yes.
> 
> Different training routines, whey protein, creatine, post workouts, intra workouts and pre workouts is not the reason for a Markus Ruhl. Those supplements make absolutely hardly any difference over food. What advances? Training? Almost all bodybuilders train differently: Dorian's one set HIT, Lee Priest's pump sets, Kevin Levrone on a push/pull/legs twice a week, Pakulski and his high frequency, some even train body parts everyday! This is evidence that training is a variable that is all over the place and is not a constant, therefore it cannot be a contributing factor to the size difference now. *New drugs is a constant variable because they didn't use that method before because they were not invented!*
> 
> ...


dedication... hard work (really hard work......)diet strict diet (those people dont miss a meal in years ....)genetics ... and last suplements... aas !!!


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## Tekken (Feb 8, 2014)

sadman said:


> dedication... hard work (really hard work......)diet strict diet (those people dont miss a meal in years ....)genetics ... and last suplements... aas !!!


lol no just no, dont buy into that bull****


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## cas (Jan 9, 2011)

sadman said:


> dedication... hard work (really hard work......)diet strict diet (those people dont miss a meal in years ....)genetics ... and last suplements... aas !!!


I don't know who you are trying to fool? 90% of this board have used steroids. We all know its the facking drugs, if it wasn't the drugs then no one would bother taking them.

I was training natty for a couple of years and then a mate of mine decided he was going to start going to the gym, he started drugs at the same time as he started lifting and then the fvcker overtook me on lifts and in size....and I had 2 YEARS on him. And he managed this in one cycle.

Any way some time passed I started using aas, dieted down. Stoped using etc. Then this new kid started at the gym we were both the same size and I went back on the juice and now you wouldn't know if he was stood behind me waving (little bit exaggerated lol)

Don't get me wrong they are not magic, but they don't get put in last place.


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## sadman (Jul 24, 2013)

cas said:


> I don't know who you are trying to fool? 90% of this board have used steroids. We all know its the facking drugs, if it wasn't the drugs then no one would bother taking them.
> 
> I was training natty for a couple of years and then a mate of mine decided he was going to start going to the gym, he started drugs at the same time as he started lifting and then the fvcker overtook me on lifts and in size....and I had 2 YEARS on him. And he managed this in one cycle.
> 
> ...


i get your point but i heve seen people taken insane doses of aas and they dont come even close to the pros !!!so you wana tell me that the average gym rat that takes masive doses of aas can be the next mr o .....or atleast get a pro card ????????


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## nightshiftboy (Apr 26, 2011)

What's are people's thoughts on retired pro's usage? Like Dorian, ronnie, flex, etc. Do you think they're on Trt dosages for life or slightly higher? Are they natty (not likely) or running small dose HGH and test. I've always wondered as decades on juice would surely have wrecked their own natural production.


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## cas (Jan 9, 2011)

sadman said:


> i get your point but i heve seen people taken insane doses of aas and they dont come even close to the pros !!!so you wana tell me that the average gym rat that takes masive doses of aas can be the next mr o .....or atleast get a pro card ????????


Bud, bodybuilding is such an elite sport. We probably have a better chance of getting hit by lightning than standing on the olympia stage.

Plenty of people can get to olympia size but competing in the event is another story.

Look at it this way. 250mg of test has a usable 180mg, the rest is ester weight, now say you are using a ugl so it may be under dosed. So lets say the active dose is around 165mg. Your taking 4ml a week thinking your on 1g when infact your on 660mg that's really your average "beginner cycle"

So most serious bodybuilding competitors are probably going to be on pharma grade where each amp is going to cost around the price of or just under a pouch of 25g of tobacco and they use 6 amps a week as their base, and then add their cycles ontop of that. We are talking multiple stacks of drugs...deca, primo, mast (look up how much each amp is, its not bloody cheap)...don't forget your orals. Which are probably around 150-200mg dbol each day or whatever. Then they are taking insulin. Multiple iu's of hgh. Dont forget t3, dnp and diuretics.

Plus no one truly knows what the pros take so who is to say that these gym rats are on insane doses, when you have no guide on what to judge it by?

Bostin Lloyd came out and outted the lot...even showed how his body changed yet no one facking believes him

Normal people cant afford all this which is why they don't get anywhere near the size of mr o....

Let not kid ourselves, these people want to be the BEST in the world, winning an olympia title secures their name in the history books, to be remembered forever....you really think they are not going to do whatever it takes? This is their life to them


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## sadman (Jul 24, 2013)

cas said:


> Bud, bodybuilding is such an elite sport. We probably have a better chance of getting hit by lightning than standing on the olympia stage.
> 
> Plenty of people can get to olympia size but competing in the event is another story.
> 
> ...


i dont disagree with the above m8,and sure need alot of money but i do believe that become a pro isnt just aas!!


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## oldskoolcool (Oct 4, 2009)

It's the ****ing hormones not the training not the food the hormones on 20iu per day of hgh and i mean pharma, 200mg + of tren a per day, 500mg of test, per day, 100mg of mast per day year round cycling dbol and oxy's 6weeks on 6 off, 80iu slow slin am and 20 iu with every meal will give someone 6ft 6-8% 280lbs eating what they like plenty of carbs 60% protein 40% fats 10% training 30-45mins 3 times per week please dont try these doses right off you do need to build up good genetics means you can stand constant abuse of hormones at mega doses without getting ill from them not every body as the ability hence not every bodies a top pro there you go the real truth not nice but there you go.


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## J4MES (Jul 28, 2013)

Massive bump! lol....

When people are talking about these does (example 2g) are they including theres orals (100mg var x 7 = 700mg) is that factored into there total?

Thanks


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## Thomasfreddy (Oct 12, 2014)

All gear is crap underdosed these

Days 250mg per ml is more like 75mg

That's my opinion


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## Roid the Lloyd (Jul 8, 2012)

Thomasfreddy said:


> All gear is crap underdosed these
> 
> Days 250mg per ml is more like 75mg
> 
> That's my opinion


You need evidence to support this claim.

What proof do you have which suggests that 'all gear' is 175mg per lower than it is says on the vial? Granted, there are pony labs out there but you can't make a statement like this without concrete evidence.


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## Thomasfreddy (Oct 12, 2014)

My opinion bro


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## AncientOldBloke (Dec 11, 2014)

Need to pose the same qn to someone who took either 1960s-1980s AAS or Phama grade now.


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## Pitbull999 (Jun 3, 2012)

oldskoolcool said:


> It's the ****ing hormones not the training not the food the hormones on 20iu per day of hgh and i mean pharma, 200mg + of tren a per day, 500mg of test, per day, 100mg of mast per day year round cycling dbol and oxy's 6weeks on 6 off, 80iu slow slin am and 20 iu with every meal will give someone 6ft 6-8% 280lbs eating what they like plenty of carbs 60% protein 40% fats 10% training 30-45mins 3 times per week please dont try these doses right off you do need to build up good genetics means you can stand constant abuse of hormones at mega doses without getting ill from them not every body as the ability hence not every bodies a top pro there you go the real truth not nice but there you go.


Do you know for sure that some pro's use these amounts your talking about?


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