# Block periodization



## Quackerz (Dec 19, 2015)

@Mingster, I have tagged you as you seem to be the resident expert on block periodization here.

Say I wanted to give block periodization a good shot, actually try it for once and stop fu**ing around like I have been, working Squat/Bench/Deadlift once a week as I intended to do initially, how would I program the percentages? Should I run the accumulation phase on a monthly rotation of something like 65%, 70%, 75% and then increase, basing my sets and reps off priplins running it consecutively until a few months out from competition and then into the transmutation phase and peaking with the realisation phase ending a week or so out? Or should I run it in basic 4 week block for 12 week periods? Or maybe I am overthinking things. I am unsure. I know I cannot continue to train how I have been though, my CNS takes too much stress and is catching up, I need a new approach for when my hand is feeling better.

For the record 5/3/1 does not appeal to me either, I do not want to be training over 90% that often, it is becoming too much and my joints need a decent break also (shoulders).

I am unsure as to how I should really be planning this, I will probably use two exercise maximum, main lift and one assistance, like I had decided before, but no constant singles or silly training, also some light shoulder work on Saturdays for balance, focused on rear delts.

I'm dropping my gear doses and going to focus on simply training properly instead of relentlessly smashing on weight as fast as I can, I think it would be more beneficial in the long run.

Is simply running a continuous hypertrophy block beneficial? Or should I cycle this and the transmutation block, working up to my maxes near competition time?

@swole troll @Jakemaguire @Bataz, your input would be greatly appreciated also. I will start a journal with this to force me to stick to my reps and percentages, otherwise I will get to much bravado and start going for singles every session again. :lol:

My body needs a break and a new course of action.

Cheers for the input.


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## swole troll (Apr 15, 2015)

i always got on well with jason blahas off season periodization routine

https://www.muscleandstrength.com/workouts/jason-blaha-intermediate-strength-program

plenty of room for customisation with assistance lifts and could quite easily split it to a once per week frequency if you so desired

its basically just a typical eastern block style progression of hypertrophy phase leading into a meet peak

i ran it as written initially and i can tell you that without a hefty surplus the 5x10 squats followed by deadlifts on week 3 will bury you

its an aggressive program but it works and is easily adaptable to match any other style of linear periodization

they all essentially just follow a peaking process


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## Quackerz (Dec 19, 2015)

swole troll said:


> i always got on well with jason blahas off season periodization routine
> 
> https://www.muscleandstrength.com/workouts/jason-blaha-intermediate-strength-program
> 
> ...


 TBH I was hoping to try to run this as minimally as possible. 2 exercises per session. I really think I can gain more out of this with a 3 X 6-8 at 70% with clean reps than I ever could with 5 X 10 at the same % going to near failure. I have started to look into how weightlifters train and would be trying to implement the basic sort principals applied to it, ie. technique, power and quality reps over needing to fatigue my muscles.

I think it should also help to keep my ego in check and save my joints some hassle also. Do you have any experience using priplins chart as a base for working out your daily sets and reps? This is what I am mostly interested in. I'm just speculating on it for now though.


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## swole troll (Apr 15, 2015)

im afraid i dont mate, im somewhat familiar with the table but ive not directly used it to create any programs as such

i generally stick to tried and tested, ive found in the past that a lot of programs i construct myself im forever tweaking usually unnecessarily trying to find the 'perfect' split when in reality im usually just facing regular plateaus due to any number of things i am forever questioning if its the program layout and end up always blaming that when something is a miss


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## Quackerz (Dec 19, 2015)

swole troll said:


> im afraid i dont mate, im somewhat familiar with the table but ive not directly used it to create any programs as such
> 
> i generally stick to tried and tested, ive found in the past that a lot of programs i construct myself im forever tweaking usually unnecessarily trying to find the 'perfect' split when in reality im usually just facing regular plateaus due to any number of things i am forever questioning if its the program layout and end up always blaming that when something is a miss


 The basic idea would be to use priplins to calculate reps for the main lift, more than likely a variant where I have a sticking point, plus a single exercise for 2 or 3 sets of 8 to finish, that't it. I am simply unsure how to progress over a longer period of time using a model like this optimally. Saturday would be a shoulders and assistance day for four exercises or so.

I was thinking something like:

70% X 3 X 8

75% X 4 X 6

80% X 5 X 4

And repeat.

Increase weight next cycle. It seems viable to me, I just wanted second thoughts.


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## Quackerz (Dec 19, 2015)

Would probably run two cycles and then de-load.


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## Quackerz (Dec 19, 2015)

No overhead pressing either as my front delts are overdeveloped, rear and medial work only.


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## sammclean23 (Aug 16, 2012)

I've been using this now for 5 cycles mate. Been working excellent for me

http://www.healthylivingheavylifting.com/the-every-mans-guide-to-dup/


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## swole troll (Apr 15, 2015)

cant see why it wouldnt work provided youre eating enough and progression is in place most programs will work assuming you can recover

but then that is the basic premise of periodization that the prior weeks set you up for the subsequent

be interested to see how it all works out, ill sub into the log when you get the program set up


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## sammclean23 (Aug 16, 2012)

This was my tracker for the cycles I used if it's of interest to you mate

View attachment Book1 - Recovered.xlsx


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## Quackerz (Dec 19, 2015)

sammclean23 said:


> I've been using this now for 5 cycles mate. Been working excellent for me
> 
> http://www.healthylivingheavylifting.com/the-every-mans-guide-to-dup/


 The idea is to NOT train to failure, not is any single exercise, working solely off of an RPE scale. I appreciate the input, but this sort of programming is not for me, it is too unstructured.

I appreciate the input but I am training for a PLing comp next year, going to constant failure is going to be a nightmare on recovery and I could not imagine it being very beneficial to developing neural patterns either. This is a build up for maximal strength, hypertrophy is a secondary goal for the areas I need it.



swole troll said:


> cant see why it wouldnt work provided youre eating enough and progression is in place most programs will work assuming you can recover
> 
> but then that is the basic premise of periodization that the prior weeks set you up for the subsequent
> 
> be interested to see how it all works out, ill sub into the log when you get the program set up


 It's not set in stone but I am fairly sure If I run this until the end of the year, then close to competition time I move into phase two 14 weeks out for 6 weeks, deload for a week, then into phase 3 7 weeks stopping 1 week week out and start water loading from there. I'll do some very light competition lifts say around 5 days out at around 50%, it could work rather well I think.

Just waiting for @Mingster's input.  I'm sure he can put me on track with this.

How I would program phase 2 and 3 I have no idea yet. There are so many options.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Isn't Daily Undulating Periodisation (DUP) now generally viewed as better than block periodisaiton? Although perhaps that is just the view put out by DUP enthusiasts...


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## sammclean23 (Aug 16, 2012)

Quackerz said:


> The idea is to NOT train to failure, not is any single exercise, working solely off of an RPE scale. I appreciate the input, but this sort of programming is not for me, it is too unstructured.
> 
> I appreciate the input but I am training for a PLing comp next year, going to constant failure is going to be a nightmare on recovery and I could not imagine it being very beneficial to developing neural patterns either. This is a build up for maximal strength, hypertrophy is a secondary goal for the areas I need it.
> 
> ...


 I haven't trained to failure yet mate. The volume worked allowed to work past plateus I reached doing 5x5 & 3x5 on the big 3 compounds.

BUT, your goals are different to mine! Good luck mate look forward to reading what you opt for


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## Quackerz (Dec 19, 2015)

Ultrasonic said:


> Isn't Daily Undulating Periodisation (DUP) now generally viewed as better than block periodisaiton? Although perhaps that is just the view put out by DUP enthusiasts...


 Personally I like the idea of standard blocks. There is no such thing as better IMO, it is simply how you implement it, either way training to failure for strength purposes is detrimental in the long run IMO. This is what I find for my myself through trial and error. Conjugate models have always worked well for me, but I am at a point where I am fining it hard to recover from the weights used. I do a lot of heavy lifting at work and this tends to f**k with my recovery.

I just want to try something new. It works very well for a lot of elite lifters. I would not write it off simply due to a few article you read on the net.


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## sammclean23 (Aug 16, 2012)

You ever tried canditos work mate?


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## Quackerz (Dec 19, 2015)

sammclean23 said:


> You ever tried canditos work mate?


 I have but was not a fan. I am at a point where my programming needs to be individualised and tailored to me, cookie cutter programs will only get you so far once you reach a certain point in your training. Like I have stated in the OP, regular lifting over 90% is off the cards for me. I am looking for a new approach. I ran a mock meet for shits and giggles a few months back and hit, 506, it would have already gone up and if I play my cards right and water load properly I am hoping for something around 540 for the comp got 9/9 if I can in the 90kg class, I just can't keep destroying myself in the process, hence the reason for running my training off an RPE scale and minimising my exercises. Quality over quantity, it has a ring to it IMO. I am also assisted just for the record.

Also as stated I need time for extra recovery due to work. Your muscles may recover in 72 hours. Your CNS does not, it can adapt, but not when your lugging around heavy boxes all day after your training sessions.


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## sammclean23 (Aug 16, 2012)

I'm with you mate apologies to throw suggestions in there without fully grasping beforehand!

Very insterested to see where you go with this and good luck in the comp!! Will soon fly around.


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## Jakemaguire (Feb 17, 2016)

Quackerz said:


> @Mingster, I have tagged you as you seem to be the resident expert on block periodization here.
> 
> Say I wanted to give block periodization a good shot, actually try it for once and stop fu**ing around like I have been, working Squat/Bench/Deadlift once a week as I intended to do initially, how would I program the percentages? Should I run the accumulation phase on a monthly rotation of something like 65%, 70%, 75% and then increase, basing my sets and reps off priplins running it consecutively until a few months out from competition and then into the transmutation phase and peaking with the realisation phase ending a week or so out? Or should I run it in basic 4 week block for 12 week periods? Or maybe I am overthinking things. I am unsure. I know I cannot continue to train how I have been though, my CNS takes too much stress and is catching up, I need a new approach for when my hand is feeling better.
> 
> ...


 I'm still trying to figure out block training myself lol so I'm afraid I can't advise numbers hurt my head....everything hurts my head


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## Quackerz (Dec 19, 2015)

sammclean23 said:


> I'm with you mate apologies to throw suggestions in there without fully grasping beforehand!
> 
> Very insterested to see where you go with this and good luck in the comp!! Will soon fly around.


 No need to apologise mate, its a discussion to discuss things. All input is appreciated as stated. 



Jakemaguire said:


> I'm still trying to figure out block training myself lol so I'm afraid I can't advise numbers hurt my head....everything hurts my head


 Is it the anadrol? :lol:


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## naturalguy (Jan 21, 2016)

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1dPMOwvCuXh8hM5uOgWx2Au04hnlQV-e3kQ6XbZwT21I/edit

Do this, make gains. Rinse repeat. Shabang.


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## Jakemaguire (Feb 17, 2016)

Quackerz said:


> No need to apologise mate, its a discussion to discuss things. All input is appreciated as stated.
> 
> Is it the anadrol? :lol:


 Lol I haven't had drol in over a year now


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## Quackerz (Dec 19, 2015)

naturalguy said:


> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1dPMOwvCuXh8hM5uOgWx2Au04hnlQV-e3kQ6XbZwT21I/edit
> 
> Do this, make gains. Rinse repeat. Shabang.


 Too much pointless fluff for my liking, as I have stated I am looking for advice on a more minimalist approach, what you have posted has way too much volume for my liking, I have tried it in the past and there are studies to back the concept that muscular fatigue has no benefit whatsoever on hypertrophy, possibly on high doses of AAS's, but all I am I am running 250mg Test and 500mg EQ, I think it would hardly be beneficial to me, I am simply looking for to re comp whilst slowly building strength in my sticking points until I begin to up the weight nearer the end of the year. I also want to stay away from anything close to 90% for the time being.

I'm not saying it would not work, simply I think that there is a more optimal approach sticking closely to single variations of the competition lifts per session. I have an assistance day for fluff work on Saturday's.

I am simply looking for advice on how to program the %'s with hypertrophy block for now, but thanks for the input.


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## naturalguy (Jan 21, 2016)

Quackerz said:


> Too much pointless fluff for my liking, as I have stated I am looking for advice on a more minimalist approach, what you have posted has way too much volume for my liking, I have tried it in the past and there are studies to back the concept that muscular fatigue has no benefit whatsoever on hypertrophy, possibly on high doses of AAS's, but all I am I am running 250mg Test and 500mg EQ, I think it would hardly be beneficial to me, I am simply looking for to re comp whilst slowly building strength in my sticking points until I begin to up the weight nearer the end of the year. I also want to stay away from anything close to 90% for the time being.
> 
> I'm not saying it would not work, simply I think that there is a more optimal approach sticking closely to single variations of the competition lifts per session. I have an assistance day for fluff work on Saturday's.
> 
> I am simply looking for advice on how to program the %'s with hypertrophy block for now, but thanks for the input.


 remove all the "fluff" then. but there isn't one person who hasn't run this and got bigger and stronger fast, including a massive increase in training tolerance


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## Jakemaguire (Feb 17, 2016)

I've been following ed coens ideas lately set out achievable numbers and don't miss a lift training with 2 work sets my first 5 weeks where sets of 8 I set myself a small increase for each week I'm now working in 5s but I think it's gonna have to drop to triples soon as I worked out tomorrow's deadlift session is 2x5 at 90% I wish I'd not done the maths now lol I'm dreading it


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## Quackerz (Dec 19, 2015)

naturalguy said:


> remove all the "fluff" then. but there isn't one person who hasn't run this and got bigger and stronger fast, including a massive increase in training tolerance


 I have not started thread to discuss training programs and their effectiveness. If that is what you want to discuss then please feel free to create your own thread on the subject and tag me in it, and I can link you studies to back my arguments if you wish.

I am simply wondering how to structure a phase 1 block to continuously cycle from a % perspective for the main lift in the format I have outlined. This is all. Even if I do remove the assistance I will still be working though the program up to the 90% range, I want to avoid this to recuperate for a while.

It seems like it could work well, but it is simply not how I like to train and the assistance seems like overkill. More is not always better.


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## Quackerz (Dec 19, 2015)

Jakemaguire said:


> Lol I haven't had drol in over a year now


 Whats your stack then? D-Bol? Halo? I need what you are on to lift big weights.


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## Jakemaguire (Feb 17, 2016)

Quackerz said:


> Whats your stack then? D-Bol? Halo? I need what you are on to lift big weights.


 Lol iv been on test for 1 year now dosing cruising between 200mg-250mg per week for roughly 10 weeks then blasting between 400mg-500mg iv done a few 4 week slin runs (lantus and novorapid) and 5 weeks ago added deca at 200mg as I'm trying to add mass. That's all I did try superdrol for no more than a week and I fu**ing hated it Iv come to the conclusion that I don't need orals or tren or any other fancy s**t tbh I'm not really noticing anything from this deca. So currently just 500mg testcyp and 200mg deca per week. If you eat well and train smart you will get where you need to be mate but you gotta like you say take a step back work the lighter weights for a while attack your weak points and nail your technique


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## Mingster (Mar 25, 2011)

For me it will depend on where I am in my training generally, but, in the main, I like to follow a pared down to the minimum kind of approach.

For starters I prefer 6 week routines. Life always seems to get in the way of 10 and 12 week training patterns. Injuries, family commitments, working away from home, night shifts and so on. If I'm 12-14 weeks out from a meet I'll just run it twice with a couple of spare weeks to cover most contingencies.

My standard approach would be;

Week 1. 4 sessions 5x5 @60% working on explosive power and bar speed. Two sessions Squat and Bench. Two sessions of Deads.

Week 2 would be sets of 5 building up to 3x5 at 80%. Week 3 sets of 5 building up to 3x4 at 85%. Week 4 sets of 5 building up to 3x3 at 90%.

Week 5 would be 2x2 at 95%.

Week 6 would be a repeat of Week 5 or 1x2 at 97.5% depending on how I felt.

Nothing fancy or complicated but with an achievable goal every session.

I wouldn't do any assistance.


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## Quackerz (Dec 19, 2015)

Jakemaguire said:


> Lol iv been on test for 1 year now dosing cruising between 200mg-200mg per week for roughly 10 weeks then blasting between 400mg-500mg iv done a few 4 week slin runs (lantus and novorapid) and 5 weeks ago added deca at 200mg as I'm trying to add mass. That's all I did try superdrol for no more than a week and I fu**ing hated it Iv come to the conclusion that I don't need orals or tren or any other fancy s**t the I'm not really noticing anything from this deca. So currently just 500mg testcyp and 200mg deca per week. If you eat well and train smart you will get where you need to be mate but you gotta like you say take a step back work the lighter weights for a while attack your weak points and nail your technique


 Basically the conculsion I have come to, Low test and EQ for me, I fu**ing love the stuff, good strength, minimal sides and it gives me a lot more energy also. Most underrated compound out there IMO. I think I might stick with this protocol for years.


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## Jakemaguire (Feb 17, 2016)

Quackerz said:


> Basically the conculsion I have come to, Low test and EQ for me, I fu**ing love the stuff, good strength, minimal sides and it gives me a lot more energy also. Most underrated compound out there IMO. I think I might stick with this protocol for years.


 Iv done a stack with test tren mast d bol oxys with halo and mtren and m1t threw in there for a Pl meet. my last meet was done on 500mg per week of cyp and I beat all of my previous comp lifts diet was better and I only took a 5 week build up as I only decided to do it 6 weeks out and coming off a cut lol I put 5kg on in that 6 weeks


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## Quackerz (Dec 19, 2015)

Mingster said:


> For me it will depend on where I am in my training generally, but, in the main, I like to follow a pared down to the minimum kind of approach.
> 
> For starters I prefer 6 week routines. Life always seems to get in the way of 10 and 12 week training patterns. Injuries, family commitments, working away from home, night shifts and so on. If I'm 12-14 weeks out from a meet I'll just run it twice with a couple of spare weeks to cover most contingencies.
> 
> ...


 Is that meant to be 11 X 2 or 1 X 2?

Some good info and may consider this approach if it is recommended by you. (I always value your opinion with this type of programming)

The thing is I have no commitments apart from work. I was hoping to stay under 90% and work up slowly. Would you consider this a viable option considering? Or would this layout be your best recommendation? As a minimalist approach is my preferred way of training, I can't be bothered with the unnecessarily stuff. If so I might be swayed to give it a shot as recovery seems very optimal for me.

What days would each lift be performed on? I am assuming weeks 2-6 would be S/B/D once a week?


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## Quackerz (Dec 19, 2015)

Jakemaguire said:


> Iv done a stack with test tren mast d bol oxys with halo and mtren and m1t threw in there for a Pl meet. my last meet was done on 500mg per week of cyp and I beat all of my previous comp lifts diet was better and I only took a 5 week build up as I only decided to do it 6 weeks out and coming off a cut lol I put 5kg on in that 6 weeks


 Pretty much training & diet > drugs. Something that I am beginning to understand more.


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## Quackerz (Dec 19, 2015)

@Mingster

How much weight would you increase by for each consecutive session also?


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## Mingster (Mar 25, 2011)

Quackerz said:


> Is that meant to be 11 X 2 or 1 X 2?
> 
> Some good info and may consider this approach if it is recommended by you. (I always value your opinion with this type of programming)
> 
> ...


 LOL. 1x2. 11x anything doesn't fit with my minimalistic approach.

Of course a more gradual approach is a viable option. You need to select a system that fits in with your lifestyle and nature. Me, I get bored easily and like to have an immediate target. 6 weeks is the limit to my attention span  A good system is like a good diet, it has to be one you can stick with.

You can train on whatever days that suit you, although, personally, I like to have at least 2 days between Squats and Deads.

Weight increase will be governed by your 1RM. If your Bench is 150 the weight increments will be 7.5kg a week.


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## Quackerz (Dec 19, 2015)

Mingster said:


> LOL. 1x2. 11x anything doesn't fit with my minimalistic approach.
> 
> Of course a more gradual approach is a viable option. You need to select a system that fits in with your lifestyle and nature. Me, I get bored easily and like to have an immediate target. 6 weeks is the limit to my attention span  A good system is like a good diet, it has to be one you can stick with.
> 
> ...


 Perfect, thanks, so an increase of 5% then roughly. Do you squat and bench on the same days? And do you still perform each lift on twice a week on every week of the cycle? You have me interested now. I like the simplicity.

I thought 11 X 1 seemed excessive.


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## Mingster (Mar 25, 2011)

Quackerz said:


> Perfect, thanks, so an increase of 5% then roughly. Do you squat and bench on the same days? And do you still perform each lift on twice a week on every week of the cycle? You have me interested now. I like the simplicity.
> 
> I thought 11 X 1 seemed excessive.


 No, I train each lift once a week a separate day apart from Week 1. In actuality it may often be slightly less than a week, maybe every 5 days, depending on my schedule. It's a flexible system; you can adapt it, within reason, to suit your needs. As long as you are hitting your session targets...


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## Quackerz (Dec 19, 2015)

Mingster said:


> No, I train each lift once a week a separate day apart from Week 1. In actuality it may often be slightly less than a week, maybe every 5 days, depending on my schedule. It's a flexible system; you can adapt it, within reason, to suit your needs. As long as you are hitting your session targets...


 Perfect, cheers. I think I will give this a shot as of next week and add in some rear delt work as it is something I need IMO. Other than that the layout is perfect, exactly the kind of programming I like, it's to the point and efficient. No bullshit. Only change I have to make is to switch to pin presses for maybe a cycle or two, my front delts are feeling abused and pin presses take the stress off. Personally for me I see this as the best course of action. I will gradually lower the pins over consecutive cycles.

Thanks for this. It's appreciated.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Quackerz said:


> Too much pointless fluff for my liking, as I have stated I am looking for advice on a more minimalist approach, what you have posted has *way too much volume* for my liking, I have tried it in the past and* there are studies to back the concept that muscular fatigue has no benefit whatsoever on hypertrophy...*


 I was assuming that your aim was strength here, given where you posted this thread?

Also, volume and muscular fatigue are very different, and the scientific evidence absolutely does show a benefit of increased volume for hypertrophy.

Edit: Not wanting to distract from you getting good info. on block periodisation but I wouldn't want others to be mislead by your post.


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## Quackerz (Dec 19, 2015)

Ultrasonic said:


> I was assuming that your aim was strength here, given where you posted this thread?
> 
> Also, volume and muscular fatigue are very different, and the scientific evidence absolutely does show a benefit of increased volume for hypertrophy.


 After the first few sets muscular activation decreases and fatigue sets in, switching exercises does not change this either......... it's dumb. Strength or hypertrophy, anything over 3 or 4 sets per muscle group is counter productive IMO.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/261769706_Muscle_Activation_Does_Not_Increase_After_a_Fatigue_Plateau_Is_Reached_During_8_Sets_of_Resistance_Exercise_in_Trained_Individuals


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## Quackerz (Dec 19, 2015)

Ultrasonic said:


> I was assuming that your aim was strength here, given where you posted this thread?
> 
> Also, volume and muscular fatigue are very different, and the scientific evidence absolutely does show a benefit of increased volume for hypertrophy.


 I mentioned hypertrophy as I was referencing the 1st phase of the block.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Quackerz said:


> After the first few sets muscular activation decreases and fatigue sets in, switching exercises does not change this either......... it's dumb. Strength or hypertrophy, anything over 3 or 4 sets per muscle group is counter productive IMO.
> 
> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/261769706_Muscle_Activation_Does_Not_Increase_After_a_Fatigue_Plateau_Is_Reached_During_8_Sets_of_Resistance_Exercise_in_Trained_Individuals


 I don't want to get into a long discussion and derail your thread, so I'll simply say that study tells us nothing about hyperthrophy.


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## Quackerz (Dec 19, 2015)

Ultrasonic said:


> I don't want to get into a long discussion and derail your thread, so I'll simply say that study tells us nothing about hyperthrophy.


 It tells you that a fatigue plateau has been reached after a few sets and muscular activation decreases as a result as a result of said fatigue. Muscular activation is a key component in muscle fibre recruitment and CNS recruitment. For the sake of argument mechanical loading is the main driver behind hypertrophy. A key component of mechanical loading is muscle fibre recruitment. Do you see where I am going with this? If you want a 'hardcore' leg session simply do 3 sets of 10 and go for a run. You will achieve the same results as if you spent an hour and a half in he gym doing 25 sets of squats. I guarantee it. It a few sets per muscle group is failing you you are not working hard enough. Period. It's easier for some people to simply sit there and get a pump for an hour doing f**k all on their phone rather than actually train.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Quackerz said:


> It tells you that a fatigue plateau has been reached after a few sets and muscular activation decreases as a result as a result of said fatigue. Muscular activation is a key component in muscle fibre recruitment and CNS recruitment. For the sake of argument mechanical loading is the main driver behind hypertrophy. A key component of mechanical loading is muscle fibre recruitment. Do you see where I am going with this? If you want a 'hardcore' leg session simply do 3 sets of 10 and go for a run. You will achieve the same results as if you spent an hour and a half in he gym doing 25 sets of squats. I guarantee it. It a few sets per muscle group is failing you you are not working hard enough. Period. It's easier for some people to simply sit there and get a pump for an hour doing f**k all on their phone rather than actually train.


 To be clear I am absolutely not advocating pump style training, and nor I believe was the routine that you criticised for too much volume based around this.


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## Quackerz (Dec 19, 2015)

Ultrasonic said:


> To be clear I am absolutely not advocating pump style training, and nor was the routine that you criticised for too much volume based around this.


 The research I produced was not based around pump training, the loads used were at 75% intensity. That was just me ranting. 

The program in question is too much volume though, especially when you take the research I have provided into consideration. It is completely unnecessary and has no real benefit to it whatsoever.

If you can produce published research to back your claims that this would be of benefit to both strength and hypertrophy at this level of volume I will post a picture of myself in gen con wearing a dress. That is a promise and I keep them.

Good luck.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Quackerz said:


> The research I produced was not based around pump training, the loads used were at 75% intensity. That was just me ranting.
> 
> The program in question is too much volume though, especially when you take the research I have provided into consideration. It is completely unnecessary and has no real benefit to it whatsoever.
> 
> ...


 My basic point is that if you want to use research to make claims about what cuases hypertrophy, use studies that actually measure hypertrophy. The one you linked to just looks at muscle activation, from which you are making assumptions to reach conclusions about hypertrophy. Doing so and claiming that your arguments are scientifically proven is flawed.

Where I'm coming from re. volume is comparing e.g. 1x8, 3x8, 5x8 etc. The argument has nothing to do with recruitment, but rather time under (significant) tension. I'm pretty sure you don't just do one set of an exercise...

As always the real study data in this area is much more limited than we'd like, but making statements that growth is not related to volume is just flat out wrong. Well designed studies will pretty universally now make sure that trial arms are matched for volume in order to remove the known effect of this as a confounding factor. I don't think you actually think volume is irrelevant BTW.


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## Quackerz (Dec 19, 2015)

Ultrasonic said:


> My basic point is that if you want to use research to make claims about what cuases hypertrophy, use studies that actually measure hypertrophy. The one you linked to just looks at muscle activation, from which you are making assumptions to reach conclusions about hypertrophy. Doing so and claiming that your arguments are scientifically proven is flawed.
> 
> Where I'm coming from re. volume is comparing e.g. 1x8, 3x8, 5x8 etc. The argument has nothing to do with recruitment, but rather time under (significant) tension. I'm pretty sure you don't just do one set of an exercise...
> 
> As always the real study data in this area is much more limited than we'd like, but* making statements that growth is not related to hypertrophy is* just flat out wrong. Well designed studies will pretty universally now make sure that trial arms are matched for volume in order to remove the known effect of this as a confounding factor. I don't think you actually think volume is irrelevant BTW.


 I honestly do. 4 sets per body part maximum at 75%. All you need IMO.

Also what is outlined in bold, where did I state this?


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## rsd147 (Nov 14, 2012)

swole troll said:


> i always got on well with jason blahas off season periodization routine
> 
> https://www.muscleandstrength.com/workouts/jason-blaha-intermediate-strength-program
> 
> ...


 Would you suggest doing the same reps and sets for the rows and OHP? Or would you treat them as accessory work?


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## swole troll (Apr 15, 2015)

rsd147 said:


> Would you suggest doing the same reps and sets for the rows and OHP? Or would you treat them as accessory work?


 i ran it with the same periodization across the board so on upper day it would be 3x8 on bench, press and row and then following week 4x8 ect

its a solid program but pretty gruelling, as you get up to the 5 set days you probably want to scale your assistance work back (i ran it bare bones at this point)

also base your press numbers off of 90% of your true 1RM as youll be doing a lot of bench work before hand

(see attachment)

View attachment Off season Linear periodization intermediate strength program template.ods


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Quackerz said:


> Also what is outlined in bold, where did I state this?


 Oops, sorry, I meant 'growth is not related to volume'!


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Quackerz said:


> I honestly do. 4 sets per body part maximum at 75%. All you need IMO.


 I don't do more than 4 sets per body part either BTW, but this is part of the balance between volume and frequency and I prefer a higher frequency approach. And I certainly think it's reasonable to think the ever increasing the number of sets has a dimishing effect, and may become detrimental when it almost innevitably leads to people not pushing themselves properly early on as they are subconciously saving energy for later sets.


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## Quackerz (Dec 19, 2015)

Ultrasonic said:


> I don't do more than 4 sets per body part either BTW, but this is part of the balance between volume and frequency and I prefer a higher frequency approach. And I certainly think it's reasonable to think the ever increasing the number of sets has a dimishing effect, and may become detrimental when it almost innevitably leads to people not pushing themselves properly early on as they are subconciously saving energy for later sets.


 Pseudoscience.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Quackerz said:


> Pseudoscience.


 What is?


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## rsd147 (Nov 14, 2012)

swole troll said:


> i ran it with the same periodization across the board so on upper day it would be 3x8 on bench, press and row and then following week 4x8 ect
> 
> its a solid program but pretty gruelling, as you get up to the 5 set days you probably want to scale your assistance work back (i ran it bare bones at this point)
> 
> ...


 Do you think it would work though treating the row and OHP as accessory work? Maybe swapping row on one of the days for pull-ups etc?

I like the layout of routine just not keen on having the row and OHP fixed in to the rep scheme


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## swole troll (Apr 15, 2015)

rsd147 said:


> Do you think it would work though treating the row and OHP as accessory work? Maybe swapping row on one of the days for pull-ups etc?
> 
> I like the layout of routine just not keen on having the row and OHP fixed in to the rep scheme


 I'd say the row was a fundamental in the program

It progresses in the same periodisation as your bench and is a major assistance movement all of the other main barbell movements

I'd say the only movement you can alter is the ohp but even then I wouldn't change it anymore than the way I outlined with using 90% as your base number

Use the assistance work to bring up areas you feel are lagging, that's what it's for, you shouldn't be tickering with the bread and butter of the routine otherwise you may as well write your own


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## SamG (May 12, 2009)

naturalguy said:


> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1dPMOwvCuXh8hM5uOgWx2Au04hnlQV-e3kQ6XbZwT21I/edit
> 
> Do this, make gains. Rinse repeat. Shabang.


 What program is this? Looks interesting


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## Quackerz (Dec 19, 2015)

SamG said:


> What program is this? Looks interesting


 It's his own.....


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## SamG (May 12, 2009)

Oh OK. Judging by his own review of it I assumed it was a well known routine.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

SamG said:


> Oh OK. Judging by his own review of it I assumed it was a well known routine.


 The basic point with all forms of periodisation is the principal rather than the specifics. People who understand this will rarely follow 'known' routines.


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## Quackerz (Dec 19, 2015)

Ultrasonic said:


> The basic point with all forms of periodisation is the principal rather than the specifics. People who understand this will rarely follow 'known' routines.


 I would agree, you take the basic template and modify it to suit you from there, there is only so far a cookie cutter program can get you, it has to be individualised.


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## naturalguy (Jan 21, 2016)

SamG said:


> What program is this? Looks interesting


 The program of death and doom.

It's fun, hard work.


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## BlaineSC (Oct 10, 2015)

naturalguy said:


> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1dPMOwvCuXh8hM5uOgWx2Au04hnlQV-e3kQ6XbZwT21I/edit
> 
> Do this, make gains. Rinse repeat. Shabang.


 Damnnnnn, talk about some of dat 'der volume!


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## Bataz (Jan 21, 2014)

Week 1: 8x2 @ 65%

Week 2: 8x2 @ 70%

Week 3: 8x2 @ 75%

Week 4: 5x2 @ 80%

Week 5: 5x2 @ 85%

Week 6: 5x2 @ 90%

Week 7: 5x2 @95%


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## rsd147 (Nov 14, 2012)

Mingster said:


> For me it will depend on where I am in my training generally, but, in the main, I like to follow a pared down to the minimum kind of approach.
> 
> For starters I prefer 6 week routines. Life always seems to get in the way of 10 and 12 week training patterns. Injuries, family commitments, working away from home, night shifts and so on. If I'm 12-14 weeks out from a meet I'll just run it twice with a couple of spare weeks to cover most contingencies.
> 
> ...


 @Quackerz @Mingster

Been following this and really enjoyed it, in the fifth week and found I have not managed Squat and Deadlift but Bench I did. Would you recommend I alter anything or could it be down to feeling tired and the fact I have started in a calorie deficit?


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## Quackerz (Dec 19, 2015)

rsd147 said:


> @Quackerz @Mingster
> 
> Been following this and really enjoyed it, in the fifth week and found I have not managed Squat and Deadlift but Bench I did. Would you recommend I alter anything or could it be down to feeling tired and the fact I have started in a calorie deficit?


 You either want numbers or you want to look pretty, you need to pick a goal, lifting in a deficit will get you nowhere.


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## Mingster (Mar 25, 2011)

rsd147 said:


> @Quackerz @Mingster
> 
> Been following this and really enjoyed it, in the fifth week and found I have not managed Squat and Deadlift but Bench I did. Would you recommend I alter anything or could it be down to feeling tired and the fact I have started in a calorie deficit?


 You need to fuel any strength gains. As Quakers says above you need to prioritise you goals. If you want bigger numbers you're going to have to eat. Unless your considerably overweight to start with you're not going to get noticeably stronger on a calorie deficit.


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## Bataz (Jan 21, 2014)

Even if I was training for hypertrophy (which I am at present), I wouldn't be eating in a deficit either. Muscles need feeding!


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## rsd147 (Nov 14, 2012)

Mingster said:


> You need to fuel any strength gains. As Quakers says above you need to prioritise you goals. If you want bigger numbers you're going to have to eat. Unless your considerably overweight to start with you're not going to get noticeably stronger on a calorie deficit.


 Think I am just in two minds, not sure whether I want to cut or not. I am happy with how I look and currently 93kg at 6ft.1 which I think is healthy based on my height.

My main priority is to get stronger but not add any more fat so I was thinking of just eating at maintenance now and hopefully get stronger over time?

@Quackerz @Bataz @Mingster


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## Quackerz (Dec 19, 2015)

rsd147 said:


> Think I am just in two minds, not sure whether I want to cut or not. I am happy with how I look and currently 93kg at 6ft.1 which I think is healthy based on my height.
> 
> My main priority is to get stronger but not add any more fat so I was thinking of just eating at maintenance now and hopefully get stronger over time?
> 
> @Quackerz @Bataz @Mingster


 You will always have to be in a surplus to gain strength unless you are a rank beginner. Either that or use Tren.


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## theBEAST2002 (Oct 16, 2011)

Quackerz said:


> You will always have to be in a surplus to gain strength unless you are a rank beginner. Either that or use Tren.


 Tren will work for strength. Also Inj Dbol.


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## swole troll (Apr 15, 2015)

even tren burns out as a nos to your petrol depleted car

i was running half a gram of tren during my entire cut earlier this year and toward the end my strength was nose diving despite adequate rest between sessions, non excessive volume and a half gram of tren per week along with some other PED's

once you have been cutting for a certain amount of time or to a certain level of body fat you cannot even retain let alone build strength for love nor money


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