# 10 Week Bulking Progress...Help Please.



## bflare (Apr 20, 2017)

Hello,

I started out a few years ago at 195lb, very unfit & unhealthy. I did a year long cut at which I ended up at a measly 118lb!
From February this year I started lifting seriously at a gym following the fierce 5 routine. I am almost in my 11th week & I am seeing slow strength gains & I have put back on a lot of fat. I am currently at 148lb @ 5'8".

Can you guys see much progress in muscle mass on the attached pics?

Myself I cannot see much difference apart from fat gains. I know 11 weeks is nothing but should I be seeing more progress? I am in this now for life so I am not bothered how long it takes as long as I am making progress.

38 male

5'8"

I am eating around 2200 calories a day. Everything is logged & weighed.

Protein - 138g
Carbs - 248g
Fat - 73g

I prep all my main meals & eat nearly the exact same thing every day. Mainly Chicken, veggies, oats, Peanut Butter.

Thanks.


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## 72670 (Sep 17, 2016)

bflare said:


> Hello,
> 
> I started out a few years ago at 195lb, very unfit & unhealthy. I did a year long cut at which I ended up at a measly 118lb!
> From February this year I started lifting seriously at a gym following the fierce 5 routine. I am almost in my 11th week & I am seeing slow strength gains & I have put back on a lot of fat. I am currently at 148lb @ 5'8".
> ...


 You are eating too much and getting fat, cut back to previous and start again


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## nWo (Mar 25, 2014)

Yeah, just to echo the above, you shouldn't have put on a great deal of fat in the space of a few months, whereas you look like you're up a few waist sizes!


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## JohhnyC (Mar 16, 2015)

You're definely improving but nip that fat in the bud now or you will have to cut in months to come and that will mean no muscle gain. You have lost your abs, that's a warning sign


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## superdrol (Aug 9, 2012)

11 weeks natural aka no steroids should mean roughly 11lb at most, you've added 30lb, that's nearly 2 stone... even with beginners gains that's twice as quick as you wanted

what routine are you following??

and drop that fat back to 120lb and start bulking again at 2000 calories slightly more gently


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## bflare (Apr 20, 2017)

superdrol said:


> 11 weeks natural aka no steroids should mean roughly 11lb at most, you've added 30lb, that's nearly 2 stone... even with beginners gains that's twice as quick as you wanted
> 
> what routine are you following??
> 
> and drop that fat back to 120lb and start bulking again at 2000 calories slightly more gently


 Hello and thanks for your reply. I am following the Fierce 5 routine which is basically a 3 day full body split. I have dropped my calories to 2000. I only increased them because a few people on another well known forum said I wasn't eating enough! I would rather carry on bulking for a little while longer as my lifts are still pretty low. Also at 118lb I felt terrible. Non existent sex drive, tired all the time and basically feeling like s**t. I may of been a bit misleading in my original post. I was 118lb before Christmas and when I decided to come off the cut I added almost 10lb over night. So I've actually added a steady 1lb per week over the 11 weeks of bulking.

A few more pics which may help? First one was pre bulk and the last 2 are current.

Thanks.


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## Toranator (May 2, 2016)

I think you look healthier now tbh.

Jesus bulking at 2200 calories. I can cut on that and lose about 1.5lb a week lol. Im starving on sub 3k calories.


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## bflare (Apr 20, 2017)

Toranator said:


> I think you look healthier now tbh.
> 
> Jesus bulking at 2200 calories. I can cut on that and lose about 1.5lb a week lol. Im starving on sub 3k calories.


 Thanks. I feel a lot healthier now too. 118lb & consuming sometimes as little as 1200 calories per day is not good & I would advise anyone not to do this.


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## Sphinkter (Apr 10, 2015)

bflare said:


> Hello and thanks for your reply. I am following the Fierce 5 routine which is basically a 3 day full body split. I have dropped my calories to 2000. I only increased them because a few people on another well known forum said I wasn't eating enough! I would rather carry on bulking for a little while longer as my lifts are still pretty low. Also at 118lb I felt terrible. Non existent sex drive, tired all the time and basically feeling like s**t. I may of been a bit misleading in my original post. I was 118lb before Christmas and when I decided to come off the cut I added almost 10lb over night. So I've actually added a steady 1lb per week over the 11 weeks of bulking.
> 
> A few more pics which may help? First one was pre bulk and the last 2 are current.
> 
> ...


 That back hair is the strangest thing I've ever seen man it looks like a moustache!


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## bflare (Apr 20, 2017)

Sphinkter said:


> That back hair is the strangest thing I've ever seen man it looks like a moustache!


 Yes your not the first to say that haha. It's not the easiest thing to shave by yourself!


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## TommyP87 (Feb 18, 2017)

Get a little battery shaver, that wouldn't be too hard to shave on your own, needs to be done mate


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## bflare (Apr 20, 2017)

TommyP87 said:


> Get a little battery shaver, that wouldn't be too hard to shave on your own, needs to be done mate


 Hahahahaha I'm not feeling much love for my back tash


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## 72670 (Sep 17, 2016)

bflare said:


> Hello and thanks for your reply. I am following the Fierce 5 routine which is basically a 3 day full body split. I have dropped my calories to 2000. I only increased them because a few people on another well known forum said I wasn't eating enough! I would rather carry on bulking for a little while longer as my lifts are still pretty low. Also at 118lb I felt terrible. Non existent sex drive, tired all the time and basically feeling like s**t. I may of been a bit misleading in my original post. I was 118lb before Christmas and when I decided to come off the cut I added almost 10lb over night. So I've actually added a steady 1lb per week over the 11 weeks of bulking.
> 
> A few more pics which may help? First one was pre bulk and the last 2 are current.
> 
> ...


 You are just getting fat mate


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

bflare said:


> I would rather carry on bulking for a little while longer as my lifts are still pretty low. Also at 118lb I felt terrible. Non existent sex drive, tired all the time and basically feeling like s**t.


 What this tells you is that when you come to cut again you probably don't want to go as far. Well, assuming your diet was sensible and you weren't say on crazy low fats. Also don't think of cutting needing to be a long term thing. You could just focus on fat loss for a month and then switch back to gaining again.


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## bflare (Apr 20, 2017)

Ultrasonic said:


> What this tells you is that when you come to cut again you probably don't want to go as far. Well, assuming your diet was sensible and you weren't say on crazy low fats. Also don't think of cutting needing to be a long term thing. You could just focus on fat loss for a month and then switch back to gaining again.


 Thankd for your reply. My fats were pretty low plus I wasn't regularly going to the gym and I know exactly what calories to cut on and what to eat so I could cut for another month. I just don't want to end up dropping weight on my compound exercises as they are already pretty low although I could take the time to concentrate on my form.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

bflare said:


> I know exactly what calories to cut on


 You may not... Don't assume you should go back to what you finished up cutting on last time.

Are you certain you are counting absolutely everything you eat and drink, every day of the week, to reach your current 2200 kcal figure? That's a very unusually low figure to be gaining much weight on.


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## NTSC (Jan 17, 2017)

Have a read of this: http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/transition-phase-between-dieting-gaining.html/

as the article states, not transitioning properly from a hard diet into a gain phase can cause a significant amount of fat gain. This could have been the case, at least to some extent, for you.

I suppose a logical question would be how are you progressing in the gym? Are your lifts going up? Are you getting stronger? Are you pushing yourself hard enough?

if the answer is no, that could also be the reason for the fat gain. Obviously in order for you to grow and have excess calories diverted primarily towards muscle gain, the stimulus has to be there.

Hope that helps a bit.


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## bflare (Apr 20, 2017)

NTSC said:


> Have a read of this: http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/transition-phase-between-dieting-gaining.html/
> 
> as the article states, not transitioning properly from a hard diet into a gain phase can cause a significant amount of fat gain. This could have been the case, at least to some extent, for you.
> 
> ...


 Thanks for your reply I will read and digest. In answer to your questions yes my lifts are going up slowly but steadily.

Squat. 30kg to 60kg

Dead. 50kg to 110kg

Bench. 45kg to 60kg

Row. 40kg to 60kg

I do feel stronger. My legs are a lot bigger to the stage where I cannot get into my old jeans and they are not fat they are still lean. When I came of the cut I was really skinny. It hurt to lay in the bath as my glutes were non existent. I am wondering now if not enough sleep is a factor. Sometimes I'm home from the gym at around 12:30am and I am up for work at 6:30am. So sometimes I only probably get 4 hours of continuous sleep. I am stuck at what to do now and unhelpful comments such as "your getting fat mate" do not help. Some people say cut back down and other keep trying to bulk but reduce calories which I have and this week I'm not moving on the scale.

Thanks again.


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## bflare (Apr 20, 2017)

Ultrasonic said:


> You may not... Don't assume you should go back to what you finished up cutting on last time.
> 
> Are you certain you are counting absolutely everything you eat and drink, every day of the week, to reach your current 2200 kcal figure? That's a very unusually low figure to be gaining much weight on.


 Thanks for your reply. Everything was counted except about 4 coffee's and I did have a lot of sweetener plus bbq sauce on my main meals and cocoa powder in my oats. I'm thinking now that there could be 300 Cals there possibly?


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## Abc987 (Sep 26, 2013)

Sphinkter said:


> That back hair is the strangest thing I've ever seen man it looks like a moustache!


 Loool I thought exactly the same. Looks like there's no hair anywhere else in his back, fu**ing weird. It looks groomed/brushes lol

the tattoos and pants give @FelonE a run for his money too


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

bflare said:


> Thanks for your reply. Everything was counted except about 4 coffee's and I did have a lot of sweetener plus bbq sauce on my main meals and cocoa powder in my oats. I'm thinking now that there could be 300 Cals there possibly?


 That sounds like rather less that 300 kcal to be honest. Do you have milk in your coffee? That would be the biggest source of calories in what you've listed if you do. Out of curiosity you could weigh the BBQ sauce jar before after you've used it so you could work out the calories from that but unless you're going mad it won't be much.


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## superdrol (Aug 9, 2012)

bflare said:


> Thanks for your reply I will read and digest. In answer to your questions yes my lifts are going up slowly but steadily.
> 
> Squat. 30kg to 60kg
> 
> ...


 Your correct, some people aren't so helpful, but generally most will try and explain how they would correct stuff

sleep is a huge factor in growth, sleeping for four hours you are hindering your growth majorly and probably not helping your calories being used up, sleep is when the body does a lot of repair work, i.e. Your muscles, why are you at the gym at 12.30 and up at 6.30? Go to the gym earlier and get some solid sleep, or you will be burning yourself out later as it gets heavier

one positive is your deadlift isn't bad, but don't push it at the expense of form (I'd pop a video up as I suspect - correctly or incorrectly - I hope I'm surprised - that your form would be all over the shop at that weight so early on if I'm honest)

mad for the scale not moving, give it another week at 2000 cals and if it hasn't moved (as ultrasonic says add everything no matter how small) add in another 100 calories until the scale does move very gently the right way, your aiming for a stone or so in a year ideally, so 2-3lb a month, to give you an idea at the rate you've been gaining (even allowing for the 10lb you put back on straight away = 20lb in 11 weeks is approx 95-100 lb in a year, you won't get to 16-17 stone in a year without getting very fat... hence concern over calories...

might be worth listing everything and making a note of macros on the packet and check cocked vs uncooked figures and make sure you have them the correct way...

maybe list everything you eat and let one of us do some working out and see if we get to the same figures...


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## Sphinkter (Apr 10, 2015)

bflare said:


> Yes your not the first to say that haha. It's not the easiest thing to shave by yourself!


 Sorry mate it's just cause you're not even a hairy guy n you've just got this concentrated sense patch of hair on your back, I've never seen anything like it lol. I'd hate to see what'd happen if you started gear, you'd probably need to braid it or something!

You're lifts have progressed in the 12 weeks so that's good. Just always make sure you're not adding weight to the bar at the espense of form. I spent my first couple of years lifting (trying to) largely broken up with time out due to injuries from being a fanny and lifting with s**t form. Mainly with benching, twisting my back and lifting my arse off the bench, and bouncing the weight off my chest, to get that last rep in so I could increase the weight next session. Putting my back out and separating my shoulder (not dislocating btw) in the name of a mighty 70kg bench lol.

Also don't scale watch don't be expecting to see 1-2lbs increases on a weekly basis without significant fat gain. Remember that if you think a 1/4-1/2lbs gain a week is a FA, in a year that's a between 1 and 2 stone of hopefully "leans" gains.

These are just some of the things I've learned from getting fat and injured.

If your good at lying to yourself and being in denial about where weight is going then keeping tabs on your waistline is a good indicator of muscle/fat weight gain. If your waistline is rising significantly then reign in the calories and try and keep it reasonably tight.


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## bflare (Apr 20, 2017)

superdrol said:


> Your correct, some people aren't so helpful, but generally most will try and explain how they would correct stuff
> 
> sleep is a huge factor in growth, sleeping for four hours you are hindering your growth majorly and probably not helping your calories being used up, sleep is when the body does a lot of repair work, i.e. Your muscles, why are you at the gym at 12.30 and up at 6.30? Go to the gym earlier and get some solid sleep, or you will be burning yourself out later as it gets heavier
> 
> ...


 Hello and thanks for your reply it's appreciated. I go to the gym at that time cause it's impossible to get on the squat racks if not. Although I am considering going before work like at 6am.

For lunch I do eat a pre-made meal from the supermarket which I suppose could be incorrect. Also I've now upped my protein and reduced my calories so I'm not eating as much oats and milk which I'm guessing I may of been adding a little too much milk and also milk in my coffee's. I will list a typical days meals for one of you guys to look at that would be great.

Deadlift form is here if you could take a look. I do feel a deload coming on






I've just weighed myself and I'm down a pound from last week :/

I'm not even sure if I should be still trying to bulk or should I cut again? I'd rather bulk to be honest and try and get some mass on.

Thanks again.


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## bflare (Apr 20, 2017)

Sphinkter said:


> Sorry mate it's just cause you're not even a hairy guy n you've just got this concentrated sense patch of hair on your back, I've never seen anything like it lol. I'd hate to see what'd happen if you started gear, you'd probably need to braid it or something!
> 
> You're lifts have progressed in the 12 weeks so that's good. Just always make sure you're not adding weight to the bar at the espense of form. I spent my first couple of years lifting (trying to) largely broken up with time out due to injuries from being a fanny and lifting with s**t form. Mainly with benching, twisting my back and lifting my arse off the bench, and bouncing the weight off my chest, to get that last rep in so I could increase the weight next session. Putting my back out and separating my shoulder (not dislocating btw) in the name of a mighty 70kg bench lol.
> 
> ...


 Hello and thanks for your reply. My back tash is getting shaved off today by my girlfriend who hates it hahaha.

Yeah at first I started adding weight too much and basically had to start all over again so I wasted a few weeks. My squat form as taking some perfecting plus my ohp. With little muscle gain I'm thinking is this strength program I'm running suitable? Should I switch to one for my hypertrophy?

Thanks.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Hate to say this but @superdrol was bang on the money asking for a deadlift form check. I'm afraid that's pretty awful in terms of your lower back shape - as in dangerous. Have a look at the following to see what it should be like:


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

The video I posted talks about this I think, but FWIW my bet is you'll find a lack of hamstring flexibility prevents you being able to deadlift with the correct (safe) form at the moment.


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## Sphinkter (Apr 10, 2015)

bflare said:


> Hello and thanks for your reply. My back tash is getting shaved off today by my girlfriend who hates it hahaha.
> 
> Yeah at first I started adding weight too much and basically had to start all over again so I wasted a few weeks. My squat form as taking some perfecting plus my ohp. With little muscle gain I'm thinking is this strength program I'm running suitable? Should I switch to one for my hypertrophy?
> 
> Thanks.


 What is it you're doing 5x5 or something? Can you post the routine up or just link it if you've got it somewhere?

Also your deadlift form needs fixing. From that video your back is bent at the lumbar spine/low back you want that to be neutral (not extended either). Best way to do that is to a brace your core, that is how you'll get that tightness and that helps to protect the spine. You need to "hinge" at the hips, you can bring your hips lower but not so much so that you turn it into a squat. Just google deadlift form, hip hinge and core bracing and get practising. A lot of people struggle with the hip hinge it can be quite difficult to learn, you're basically having to re learn how to bent over and pick s**t up which you've been doing wrong all your life lol.


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## Sphinkter (Apr 10, 2015)

Ultrasonic said:


> Hate to say this but @superdrol was bang on the money asking for a deadlift form check. I'm afraid that's pretty awful in terms of your lower back shape - as in dangerous. Have a look at the following to see what it should be like:


 I should have just posted a video lol


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## 72670 (Sep 17, 2016)

bflare said:


> Thanks for your reply I will read and digest. In answer to your questions yes my lifts are going up slowly but steadily.
> 
> Squat. 30kg to 60kg
> 
> ...


 Not being funny but you have been told peoples opinions on what you should do, yes you have put on some size on your arms but you have gained lots on your waist which is unnecessary, I can tell you from experience if you keep gaining as you are you will look terrible and feel the same way and when you come to cut you won't have much muscle. Slow and steady mate.

From experience if I was you I would cut or cut back on calories, start strong lifts or Lyle McDonald's bulking routine and run it in to the ground until you cannot progress no more.

Good luck


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## bflare (Apr 20, 2017)

Sphinkter said:


> What is it you're doing 5x5 or something? Can you post the routine up or just link it if you've got it somewhere?
> 
> Also your deadlift form needs fixing. From that video your back is bent at the lumbar spine/low back you want that to be neutral (not extended either). Best way to do that is to a brace your core, that is how you'll get that tightness and that helps to protect the spine. You need to "hinge" at the hips, you can bring your hips lower but not so much so that you turn it into a squat. Just google deadlift form, hip hinge and core bracing and get practising. A lot of people struggle with the hip hinge it can be quite difficult to learn, you're basically having to re learn how to bent over and pick s**t up which you've been doing wrong all your life lol.


 Hello & thanks for your reply. My routine is a 3x5 called Fierce 5:

3 day split between two workouts A & B

Workout A
Squat 3 x 5
Bench Press 3 x 5
Pendlay Row 3 x 8
Face Pulls 3 x 10
Cable Tricep Pushdowns 3 x 10

Workout B
Deadlift 3 x 5
OHP 3 x 5
Seated Leg Curl 3 x 5
Lat Pulldown 3 x 8
Machine Curl 2 x 10
Machine Deltoid Raise 3 x 8

Regarding the deadlift. I am going to deload & work on my form as you & @Ultrasonic have indicated so thanks for that. I do not think my belt is even on in the correct place which makes my back look even worse.


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## bflare (Apr 20, 2017)

B3NCH1 said:


> Not being funny but you have been told peoples opinions on what you should do, yes you have put on some size on your arms but you have gained lots on your waist which is unnecessary, I can tell you from experience if you keep gaining as you are you will look terrible and feel the same way and when you come to cut you won't have much muscle. Slow and steady mate.
> 
> From experience if I was you I would cut or cut back on calories, start strong lifts or Lyle McDonald's bulking routine and run it in to the ground until you cannot progress no more.
> 
> Good luck


 Thanks for you reply. Yeah I know I have put a fat which I didnt intend on doing lol. I was told on another forum that I was not eating enough to put on size so I ramped my calories up. I have reduced my calories to 2000 & increased my protein to 190g. I really do not want to cut again as i felt tiny & not well at all but having said that it's probably because I reduced my calories to much & my fat intake wasn't enough. All I am looking for is guidance whether my lifting is actually doing anything or even if I should be seeing progress by now cause I see very little except improvement in my lifts.

I am following a similar routine to strong lifts called Fierce 5.

Thanks again.


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## Sphinkter (Apr 10, 2015)

bflare said:


> Hello & thanks for your reply. My routine is a 3x5 called Fierce 5:
> 
> 3 day split between two workouts A & B
> 
> ...


 Just ditch the belt for now you don't need it.

re the rep ranges, it's an individual thing I prefer to do slightly more, like 5-8, for things like benches and OHP and round about 5/6 for squats and 3-5 for deads (when I have done them, I haven't deadlifted in almost a year). But as long as you're progressing on the 3x5 you should still be growing. Its not like your doing a proper strength routine where you're lifting submaximal weights for 2/3 reps and building up to a peak or whatever, trying to focus on neural adaption etc. If you're enjoying it I'd stick with it before progressing onto an upper lower routine like the one b3nch mentioned or a variation of it.

You'll probably get to a point where squating or deadlifting 3x5 twice a week becomes an issue both mentally and physically though.


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## bflare (Apr 20, 2017)

Sphinkter said:


> Just ditch the belt for now you don't need it.
> 
> re the rep ranges, it's an individual thing I prefer to do slightly more, like 5-8, for things like benches and OHP and round about 5/6 for squats and 3-5 for deads (when I have done them, I haven't deadlifted in almost a year). But as long as you're progressing on the 3x5 you should still be growing. Its not like your doing a proper strength routine where you're lifting submaximal weights for 2/3 reps and building up to a peak or whatever, trying to focus on neural adaption etc. If you're enjoying it I'd stick with it before progressing onto an upper lower routine like the one b3nch mentioned or a variation of it.
> 
> You'll probably get to a point where squating or deadlifting 3x5 twice a week becomes an issue both mentally and physically though.


 This is where I get stuck. I like to stick to the program but like you said for exercises such as the bench & OHP I feel a better workout when I work in the 5 to 8 rep range. I seem to feel more of an effect / soreness plus I can concentrate on the mind muscle concentration more. Also my form is way better at lower weights. Would I hinder any progress increasing the bench & OHP rep ranges? I am struggling as I am trying to teach myself all this from Youtube video's & forums, I wouldn't trust asking anyone at the gym for help.

Thanks again.


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## bflare (Apr 20, 2017)

Ultrasonic said:


> Hate to say this but @superdrol was bang on the money asking for a deadlift form check. I'm afraid that's pretty awful in terms of your lower back shape - as in dangerous. Have a look at the following to see what it should be like:


 Brilliant video & explains a lot thanks. I think I have weak hamstrings & I can feel my back rounding at higher weight but lighter weight it feels fine. Think I am going to deload on all my lifts & work back up with better form together with keeping the weight increase down.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

bflare said:


> Would I hinder any progress increasing the bench & OHP rep ranges?


 No. I'd be using higher rep ranges for everything if size is your priority rather than strength personally.



bflare said:


> Brilliant video & explains a lot thanks. I think I have weak hamstrings & I can feel my back rounding at higher weight but lighter weight it feels fine. Think I am going to deload on all my lifts & work back up with better form together with keeping the weight increase down.


 I think it's more than that to be honest, since you aren't in the right position even before you start to lift the weight off the ground. Video yourself with the lightest weight you can use to get the bar at the right height to find out. Oh, and ditch the belt as mentioned above - I hadn't spotted this and in hindsight this made your form look slightly worse than it actually is.


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## bflare (Apr 20, 2017)

Ultrasonic said:


> No. I'd be using higher rep ranges for everything if size is your priority rather than strength personally.
> 
> I think it's more than that to be honest, since you aren't in the right position even before you start to lift the weight off the ground. Video yourself with the lightest weight you can use to get the bar at the right height to find out. Oh, and ditch the belt as mentioned above - I hadn't spotted this and in hindsight this made your form look slightly worse than it actually is.


 If i use an higher rep range say 5 to 8 for bench & OHP how much would I reduce the weight that I am currently doing the rep range of 5 for? Would 20% be enough?

I tried to follow the deadlift in 5 steps by Mark Rippetoe & obviously not very successful! The gym has no mirrors so unless I film myself I have no idea what my form looks like. I will practice getting into position by doing a RDL.

Thanks again.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

bflare said:


> If i use an higher rep range say 5 to 8 for bench & OHP how much would I reduce the weight that I am currently doing the rep range of 5 for? Would 20% be enough?


 Probably more than enough but just experiment. (I'd go for more of an 8-12 rep range but there is no 'right' thing to do.)



> I tried to follow the deadlift in 5 steps by Mark Rippetoe & obviously not very successful! The gym has no mirrors so unless I film myself I have no idea what my form looks like.


 Mirrors wouldn't really help anyway as you don't want to be looking sideways when deadlifting! Just film yourself with your phone.



> I will practice getting into position by doing a RDL.


 RDLs are an excellent exercise in their own right. I actually only do RDLs at the moment, with no conventional deadlifts. Not saying you should never do deadlifts but if you end up focusing on RDLs for a while this would be no bad thing.


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## NTSC (Jan 17, 2017)

bflare said:


> Thanks for your reply I will read and digest. In answer to your questions yes my lifts are going up slowly but steadily.
> 
> Squat. 30kg to 60kg
> 
> ...


 Alright, so we know you're progressing. What sort of time frame were those gains in strength in?

Sleep may well be a factor. Utilisation of nutrients for muscle growth is enhanced as you sleep. It's very important, and if you're not getting enough it could be a factor. However, as was outlined in one of my own threads by a few other members, plenty of people gain on crappy sleep patterns. It just isn't optimal.

For this reason I would doubt this will be the largest contributing factor for what you've experienced with the extra fat gain.

In my non expert opinion it would be much more likely to be something as described in that article I sent you; metabolic changes from a dramatic jump in calories having been on a very large deficit. It seems to be a very well documented phenomenon, and is one of the main reasons diet transitions are recommended when changing phases.


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## bflare (Apr 20, 2017)

NTSC said:


> Alright, so we know you're progressing. What sort of time frame were those gains in strength in?
> 
> Sleep may well be a factor. Utilisation of nutrients for muscle growth is enhanced as you sleep. It's very important, and if you're not getting enough it could be a factor. However, as was outlined in one of my own threads by a few other members, plenty of people gain on crappy sleep patterns. It just isn't optimal.
> 
> ...


 Hello and thanks for your reply. The strength gains were over 11 week. Yeah I think I went into a surplus far too quickly after such a long time in a deficit. The scales increased very quickly!


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## anabolik (Aug 19, 2010)

Gaining that much fat that quickly on just 2200 cals tells me you're not training hard enough or you're massively underestimating your calories.

2200 is about the recommended requirement for a normal non-weightlifting guy with a regular lifestyle. Something is very, very wrong here...


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## bflare (Apr 20, 2017)

anabolik said:


> Gaining that much fat that quickly on just 2200 cals tells me you're not training hard enough or you're massively underestimating your calories.
> 
> 2200 is about the recommended requirement for a normal non-weightlifting guy with a regular lifestyle. Something is very, very wrong here...


 I agree and I understand that it doesn't seem possible. From when I was cutting and when I started eating at a surplus I calculated my maintenance at 1700. Because I basically went from a 500 deficit straight to a 500 surplus I put on nearly a stone withing a few days. I think this is because I was massively underweight at 118lb and had been starving myself for a whole year. After the initial weight gain I put on a steady 1 pound per week sometimes nothing. Then I was told that I wasn't eating enough so I upped my calories by 200 and put on more weight.

What I have noticed over the last week is now that I've reduced back down to 2000 and reduced my carbs but increased my protein I have lost almost 2lb on the scale? I was consuming a lot of oats, peanut butter and Milk prior to this. Now I've switched to low fat Greek yoghurt, more chicken, mackerel, eggs and ground turkey. My carbs are coming from mainly wholemeal bread, broccoli, brown rice and granola.

Thanks.


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## anabolik (Aug 19, 2010)

bflare said:


> I agree and I understand that it doesn't seem possible. From when I was cutting and when I started eating at a surplus I calculated my maintenance at 1700. Because I basically went from a 500 deficit straight to a 500 surplus I put on nearly a stone withing a few days. I think this is because I was massively underweight at 118lb and had been starving myself for a whole year. After the initial weight gain I put on a steady 1 pound per week sometimes nothing. Then I was told that I wasn't eating enough so I upped my calories by 200 and put on more weight.
> 
> What I have noticed over the last week is now that I've reduced back down to 2000 and reduced my carbs but increased my protein I have lost almost 2lb on the scale? I was consuming a lot of oats, peanut butter and Milk prior to this. Now I've switched to low fat Greek yoghurt, more chicken, mackerel, eggs and ground turkey. My carbs are coming from mainly wholemeal bread, broccoli, brown rice and granola.
> 
> Thanks.


 Sounds like you've got your diet pretty much in check though only you really know if you're tracking your calories precisely so we'll have to trust you on that one. If your current calories have you gaining weight then I'd simply keep your diet as it is and start to increase your training and cardio to strip the fat off that you've recently gained. Cutting calories seems like it would do you more harm than good, to me it sounds like your metabolism needs a big boost and the extra training and cardio will give you just that.

Keep in mind, strength programs with low volume don't require a lot of calories to recover from as opposed to higher volume bodybuilding style workouts.

I'd increase the number of sets per workout and add in some HIIT for 15 mins post workout. Then when you get back in shape you can adjust your diet/cardio as you need to start gaining weight again, except without all the unwanted fat.


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## bflare (Apr 20, 2017)

anabolik said:


> Sounds like you've got your diet pretty much in check though only you really know if you're tracking your calories precisely so we'll have to trust you on that one. If your current calories have you gaining weight then I'd simply keep your diet as it is and start to increase your training and cardio to strip the fat off that you've recently gained. Cutting calories seems like it would do you more harm than good, to me it sounds like your metabolism needs a big boost and the extra training and cardio will give you just that.
> 
> Keep in mind, strength programs with low volume don't require a lot of calories to recover from as opposed to higher volume bodybuilding style workouts.
> 
> I'd increase the number of sets per workout and add in some HIIT for 15 mins post workout. Then when you get back in shape you can adjust your diet/cardio as you need to start gaining weight again, except without all the unwanted fat.


 Thank you and good advice. I started doing a duration of HIIT on my off day but I will add it post workout if you don't think it will hinder any strength gains etc?

Regarding the strength program I'm doing. I follow the sets and reps which are 3 x 5 and add weight every other workout if I can, I can finish the workout in 45 mins. After the workout I still have loads of energy and could easily continue and have for another hour. Is this a good indicator that the volume is too low? I am planning on increasing my bench from 3 x 5 to 3 x 8 to 12 and my ohp the same. Any additional advice on this?

Thanks again.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

bflare said:


> Thank you and good advice. I started doing a duration of HIIT on my off day but I will add it post workout if you don't think it will hinder any strength gains etc?


 My tuppence worth...

Meaningful HIIT should basically be impossible after a lower body workout - you're not training hard enough otherwise.

Do some cardio for general health but don't do loads, as the evidence that does exist pretty much all suggests this is likely to have a small negative effect on size/strength gains. Personally I would keep this to times separate to your weight training if possible. Non-impact forms of cardio like cycling are probably better than say running/jogging in terms of interfering less with strength/size gains.


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## anabolik (Aug 19, 2010)

bflare said:


> Thank you and good advice. I started doing a duration of HIIT on my off day but I will add it post workout if you don't think it will hinder any strength gains etc?
> 
> Regarding the strength program I'm doing. I follow the sets and reps which are 3 x 5 and add weight every other workout if I can, I can finish the workout in 45 mins. After the workout I still have loads of energy and could easily continue and have for another hour. Is this a good indicator that the volume is too low? I am planning on increasing my bench from 3 x 5 to 3 x 8 to 12 and my ohp the same. Any additional advice on this?
> 
> Thanks again.


 Think it was DTLV who posted studies showing there was no negative impact on recovery from weight training when HIIT was done following a workout for a reasonable duration. Obviously if you start hammering the cardio too much it will eventually eat into your recovery but 15 mins post workout a few times a week should be fine.

3x5 or 3x8-12 it's pretty much all the same tbh as long as you put the effort in you should progress with either of these. If you feel like you could do more then simply add in some assistance work after your main lifts. Maybe do 3x10-15 for a couple of exercises to really fill your target muscle groups with blood and get a good pump all of which will help burn more calories and add more mass to your frame over time. For example if you were doing bench as your main lift then you could add in some incline db and dips to finish off.

I wouldn't jump straight into doing all of this at once however, add in bits at a time and see how you feel. If you can handle the extra work then keep increasing until you find your sweet spot where you're losing fat and keeping strength or maybe even gaining. You have the fact that you're relatively new to training going for you, it should be possible to lose fat and gain some muscle simultaneously.


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## bflare (Apr 20, 2017)

anabolik said:


> Think it was DTLV who posted studies showing there was no negative impact on recovery from weight training when HIIT was done following a workout for a reasonable duration. Obviously if you start hammering the cardio too much it will eventually eat into your recovery but 15 mins post workout a few times a week should be fine.
> 
> 3x5 or 3x8-12 it's pretty much all the same tbh as long as you put the effort in you should progress with either of these. If you feel like you could do more then simply add in some assistance work after your main lifts. Maybe do 3x10-15 for a couple of exercises to really fill your target muscle groups with blood and get a good pump all of which will help burn more calories and add more mass to your frame over time. For example if you were doing bench as your main lift then you could add in some incline db and dips to finish off.
> 
> I wouldn't jump straight into doing all of this at once however, add in bits at a time and see how you feel. If you can handle the extra work then keep increasing until you find your sweet spot where you're losing fat and keeping strength or maybe even gaining. You have the fact that you're relatively new to training going for you, it should be possible to lose fat and gain some muscle simultaneously.


 Thanks for the reply. I tried staying away from assistance work as the creator of the program said it wasn't necessary. But now you've mentioned the pump I think this is where some of my problems may be. I have tried increasing weight on my main lifts every other workout but I've never felt a pump. The only time I do feel a pump is when I do tricep push downs which I do 3 sets of 15 and my triceps are probably the the muscle that I've gained on the most. I think I may of been concentrating more on increasing my weight thus creating bad form and low volume. Such as the bench, when I've gone for higher reps say 12 at a lower weight I really feel a pump and basically fatigued. Does this make sense?

Thanks.


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## anabolik (Aug 19, 2010)

bflare said:


> Thanks for the reply. I tried staying away from assistance work as the creator of the program said it wasn't necessary. But now you've mentioned the pump I think this is where some of my problems may be. I have tried increasing weight on my main lifts every other workout but I've never felt a pump. The only time I do feel a pump is when I do tricep push downs which I do 3 sets of 15 and my triceps are probably the the muscle that I've gained on the most. I think I may of been concentrating more on increasing my weight thus creating bad form and low volume. Such as the bench, when I've gone for higher reps say 12 at a lower weight I really feel a pump and basically fatigued. Does this make sense?
> 
> Thanks.


 A pump is not really an indicator of growth or that you've sufficiently stimulated a muscle, however going for higher reps for more sets will create a better mind/muscle connection and over time will help increase your strength due to CNS adaptation.

It is beneficial to do lower reps (4-6) along with higher reps as they compliment each other and you will get the best of both worlds.

I'd recommend doing your main exercises with lower reps as you have been and focus on strength progression, then you can use your finishing exercises with higher reps to go for the feel of the contraction and get a good pump which will help put mass on you, and the more mass you have the more you can eat without gaining fat.

I'd recommend doing this until you're happy with your strength level then you can reevaluate your training to a more bodybuilding style if that is your wish. As a newbie though you should be focusing on getting stronger and also learning how to feel your muscles working and target them individually with different exercises. Over time you'll get a feel for which exercises work best for you, though you should always try and have the basics in there (bench, pull ups, squats etc.)


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

anabolik said:


> Think it was DTLV who posted studies showing there was no negative impact on recovery from weight training when HIIT was done following a workout for a reasonable duration.


 This may have been the study discussed below?

http://suppversity.blogspot.co.uk/2015/12/hiit-ing-it-after-arm-workouts-will.html?m=1

Note this particular study wasn't looking at any potential effect on lower body strength/side gains, which is the usual concern.

There is some wider evidence sumarised here for anyone curious:

https://www.cdof.com.br/ARTIGOS/DIVERSOS/WILSON 2012 Concurrent_Training___A_Meta_Analysis_Examining.35.pdf



> Obviously if you start hammering the cardio too much it will eventually eat into your recovery but 15 mins post workout a few times a week should be fine.


 Sure, how much you do obviously matters. We're likely not talking about big effects here. I personally now avoid HIIT as I feel it's more likely to adversely affect leg recovery but I wouldn't claim that's proven. Post-workout LISS cardio on the other hand may have a different negative effect due to different biochemical signalling to weight training. This is why it is quite commonly advised to keep cardio separate from weight training if you can.

There was a recent study trying to compare the effects of HIIT and LISS in terms of how it interferes with weight training but unfortunately it was for pre-workout cardio rather than post. This is the study FWIW:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5093324/


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

As the term often gets misused I should perhaps clarify my comments refer to true HIIT, which is absolute maximum effort for short bursts.


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## DLTBB (Jan 26, 2015)

Damn, looks like you gained everything but muscle, you should get blood work done with your GP, I wouldn't be surprised if your Testosterone levels are through the floor looking at that progress collage.


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## bflare (Apr 20, 2017)

DLTBB said:


> Damn, looks like you gained everything but muscle, you should get blood work done with your GP, I wouldn't be surprised if your Testosterone levels are through the floor looking at that progress collage.


 Sorry incorrect this time. Had blood work done and everything is fine.


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## anabolik (Aug 19, 2010)

Ultrasonic said:


> This may have been the study discussed below?
> 
> http://suppversity.blogspot.co.uk/2015/12/hiit-ing-it-after-arm-workouts-will.html?m=1
> 
> ...


 Tbh this isn't something I worry about if my main goal is losing bodyfat. If I were bulking and trying to increase strength/size then I'd most likely keep my cardio away from weight sessions in order to optimise things.

I think we can agree any loss of strength progression while dieting due to post workout cardio would be negligible, plus you'll gain any lost mass back straight away once you increase calories again. It's really not worth worrying about imo.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

anabolik said:


> Tbh this isn't something I worry about if my main goal is losing bodyfat. If I were bulking and trying to increase strength/size then I'd most likely keep my cardio away from weight sessions in order to optimise things.


 I was talking from the point of view of the OP focusing on gaining rather than fat loss. I actually do zero cardio when trying to drop fat and just eat less, but I know most people would do some  .

I think the same issues still apply when focusing on fat loss to be honest, although potentially relating more to muscle retention than gain. I would also be even more inclined to favour LISS over HIIT when cutting.

Just my view.


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## anabolik (Aug 19, 2010)

Ultrasonic said:


> I was talking from the point of view of the OP focusing on gaining rather than fat loss. I actually do zero cardio when trying to drop fat and just eat less, but I know most people would do some  .
> 
> I think the same issues still apply when focusing on fat loss to be honest, although potentially relating more to muscle retention than gain. I would also be even more inclined to favour LISS over HIIT when cutting.
> 
> Just my view.


 Different strokes n all that. I think it comes down to whatever fits into your lifestyle the easiest. If you can find the time to go back to the gym at another time in the day to do your cardio that would obviously be the best scenario, however sometimes that's just not possible, in which case slipping it in after your weights session would be better than not doing any at all.

Personally I do both LISS and HIIT depending on how I'm feeling that day.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

anabolik said:


> I think it comes down to whatever fits into your lifestyle the easiest. If you can find the time to go back to the gym at another time in the day to do your cardio that would obviously be the best scenario, however sometimes that's just not possible, in which case slipping it in after your weights session would be better than not doing any at all.


 Absolutely. And of course some LISS pre-workout is good from a warm-up POV.


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## bflare (Apr 20, 2017)

superdrol said:


> Your correct, some people aren't so helpful, but generally most will try and explain how they would correct stuff
> 
> sleep is a huge factor in growth, sleeping for four hours you are hindering your growth majorly and probably not helping your calories being used up, sleep is when the body does a lot of repair work, i.e. Your muscles, why are you at the gym at 12.30 and up at 6.30? Go to the gym earlier and get some solid sleep, or you will be burning yourself out later as it gets heavier
> 
> ...


 Hello. Quick question. It's been another week and according to the scale my weight as dropped slightly at 2000 calories. I increased my protein to 200g dropped my carbs to 175g and my fat to 56g. I have changed my food too. I was eating a lot of oats, peanut butter and Milk. I've replaced that with low fat Greek yoghurt, eggs and makerel. If I now increase my calories by 100 should I keep my macros the same? Thanks.


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## superdrol (Aug 9, 2012)

Changing macros may make you retain less water if youve dropped carbs... or you may have lost weight... change only one variable or don't change anything as a gauge or you won't know where your at like now


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## Jack of blades (Apr 2, 2017)

It's hard to tell if your putting on fat or just become normal fat range. It's just hard to tell because of the comparison of you being so slim. I can tell you that you have definitely put beef on though the good kind of beef that is. I'd say still bulk even if you need more calories. Youv still got a v shape. My motto is if Iv still got a v shape then all is good


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## Jack of blades (Apr 2, 2017)

Also reduce your carbs and increase your protein if you think your getting fatter


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## bflare (Apr 20, 2017)

Jack of blades said:


> It's hard to tell if your putting on fat or just become normal fat range. It's just hard to tell because of the comparison of you being so slim. I can tell you that you have definitely put beef on though the good kind of beef that is. I'd say still bulk even if you need more calories. Youv still got a v shape. My motto is if Iv still got a v shape then all is good


 Hello thanks for your reply. Yeah I think the first pic has not helped the situation. 118lb which is 8st 6lb is very underweight for a 5'8" man. I was literally starving myself to get down to that weight. You could see my spine, my legs had no muscle at all. I was originally overweight at 195lb & I got carried away getting that off. So when I bumped back up to maintenance the weight the piled on very quickly. Once I got to about 130lb I felt healthy again & still looked lean. Even now the majority of fat has just gone around the common problem areas of lower back & lower chest.

My weight has now stabilised from increasing my protein to 200g & decreasing my carbs to 175g. I am going to increase calories to 2100 & keep bulking until I have sufficient muscle to cut down again. I have also increased my intensity at the gym & try to push out every last rep.

As I see it, it's all a learning curve & yeah we make mistakes but as long as you learn by them & don't give up then so what if it takes a little longer than other people. Ive cut down from 195 to 118 & i can do it again.


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## JayNo27 (Sep 30, 2014)

Ummm, it says you've cut from 195lbs to 118lbs?!?

That can't be right, Annie! ?


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## bflare (Apr 20, 2017)

JayNo27 said:


> Ummm, it says you've cut from 195lbs to 118lbs?!?
> 
> That can't be right, Annie! ?


 It's correct. I was originally 195lb 3 years ago & I cut down to 118lb over the course of 3 years.


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## ElChapo (Apr 7, 2017)

bflare said:


> Hello,
> 
> I started out a few years ago at 195lb, very unfit & unhealthy. I did a year long cut at which I ended up at a measly 118lb!
> From February this year I started lifting seriously at a gym following the fierce 5 routine. I am almost in my 11th week & I am seeing slow strength gains & I have put back on a lot of fat. I am currently at 148lb @ 5'8".
> ...


 You need a hormone panel. Thyroid and testosterone to start.


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## Caulifla (Jun 2, 2017)

What did your test levels say? I see you say up there you got it done. Have you checked your thyriod?


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## bflare (Apr 20, 2017)

Caulifla said:


> What did your test levels say? I see you say up there you got it done. Have you checked your thyriod?


 I was told that my test levels are normal. I've not had my thyroid checked. What would be the symptoms?


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## bflare (Apr 20, 2017)

ElChapo said:


> You need a hormone panel. Thyroid and testosterone to start.


 Had test checked already.


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## RRSUK (Apr 9, 2017)

bflare said:


> I was told that my test levels are normal. I've not had my thyroid checked. What would be the symptoms?


 Fatigue

weight gain

weak muscles

struggle to build/maintain muscle to name a few.


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## bflare (Apr 20, 2017)

RRSUK said:


> Fatigue
> 
> weight gain
> 
> ...


 Could be worth a check. Although I'm steadily gaining around 0.6lb to 1lb per week on around 2500 calories now and have been for about 8 week. My muscles do feel weak on a morning but I put this down to DOMs and I've noticed that my fingers get numb occasionally.


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## Caulifla (Jun 2, 2017)

bflare said:


> I was told that my test levels are normal. I've not had my thyroid checked. What would be the symptoms?


 I see! I just hope your doc was right sometimes they think 200 test levels are normal but thats pretty dog s**t. On to the thyriod

brittle nails, constipation, dry skin, high cholesterol, irritability, sensitivity to cold, sexual dysfunction, slow heart rate, sluggishness, weight gain, breathing difficulties, and hair loss.


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