# HOW DANGEROUS IS BLASTING AND CRUISING?



## baz1983 (Aug 29, 2009)

Hey guys would just like to hear some opinions on blasting and cruising instead of pct and how people are doing it!


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## Mars (Aug 25, 2007)

baz1983 said:


> Hey guys would just like to hear some opinions on blasting and cruising instead of pct and how people are doing it!


Dangerous!

As "dangerous" as cycling and PCT.

Iv'e been on B&C for years, get bloods done 3 x year, no health issues.


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## baz1983 (Aug 29, 2009)

so how does it work exactly? sorry to sound stupid!


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## big (Sep 14, 2004)

An example might be 2-3 months of test enan, between 250 and 500mg/wk followed by 2-3 months of circa 1g test plus 600mg tren or deca and some orals. And repeat.

Dosages vary massively, as do timings.


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## Mars (Aug 25, 2007)

baz1983 said:


> so how does it work exactly? sorry to sound stupid!


The same as cycling and PCT.

Instead of doing PCT after you're cycle you cruise on a low dose of test until you start another cycle, as Big said, doses and timings vary from person to person.

In general i'll run a cycle/stack of say 2g per wk for 8wks then i'll cruise on 250mg sust every 7-9days for 8wks.


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## baz1983 (Aug 29, 2009)

cheers guys thanks for the good info!


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## fxleisure (Apr 15, 2008)

Mars

Im cruising ATM and have noticed my two veg coming back to their normal size and also am getting lots of wood without the assistance of viagra?

Have you ever experienced or heard of this before?


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## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

Well i blast and cruise

And I dont do anything thats considered "safe"

Draw your own conclusions from that lol


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## rsvr (Aug 29, 2009)

So the Test/Tren bit is the blast?


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## big (Sep 14, 2004)

rsvr said:


> So the Test/Tren bit is the blast?


Yes; or whatever other gear you want to use.

Normally test only for cruising; and whatever you would run in a cycle for blasting.


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## ano1987 (Oct 17, 2008)

what are the benefits from doing this blast then crusing,


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## Mars (Aug 25, 2007)

fxleisure said:


> Mars
> 
> Im cruising ATM and have noticed my two veg coming back to their normal size and also am getting lots of wood without the assistance of viagra?
> 
> Have you ever experienced or heard of this before?


Yes i have.

I notice this quite a lot, i can only put it down to less estrogen while cruising in my case, being as estrogen is so supressive to HPTA function.

This must mean that on cruise something must be still happening at the HPTA, god knows how though lol.


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## fxleisure (Apr 15, 2008)

mars1960 said:


> Yes i have.
> 
> I notice this quite a lot, i can only put it down to less estrogen while cruising in my case, being as estrogen is so supressive to HPTA function.
> 
> This must mean that on cruise something must be still happening at the HPTA, god knows how though lol.


Thanks for the reply mate, I almost feel natural at the minute with my egg sized testicles :lol:


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## big (Sep 14, 2004)

ano1987 said:


> what are the benefits from doing this blast then crusing,


You get bigger and stronger 

Did you mean as opposed to cycling then PCT? If so, you are more likely to keep the mass and strength from blasting then cruising rather than running PCT.

Or did you mean as opposed to blasting constantly? If so, the cruising gives you some down-time, and your body a chance to recover (aside from HPTA of course).


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## big (Sep 14, 2004)

mars1960 said:


> Yes i have.
> 
> I notice this quite a lot, i can only put it down to less estrogen while cruising in my case, being as estrogen is so supressive to HPTA function.
> 
> This must mean that on cruise something must be still happening at the HPTA, god knows how though lol.


I would agree with this, completely, and find the same myself.


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## Prodiver (Nov 14, 2008)

fxleisure said:


> Mars
> 
> Im cruising ATM and have noticed my two veg coming back to their normal size and also am getting lots of wood without the assistance of viagra?
> 
> Have you ever experienced or heard of this before?


I have. Though libido can be suppressed by higher doses of certain gear in some guys, cruising on doses of test that just keep levels at high natural level seems to increase libido yet allow the axis to wake up again.

Seems it's the change that does it.


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## Lousy_Bastard (Oct 20, 2008)

fxleisure said:


> Thanks for the reply mate, I almost feel natural at the minute *with my egg sized testicles* :lol:


Wouldn't be quails eggs lol :laugh:


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## dmcc (Nov 25, 2007)

Funny that should be mentioned, I've noticed the last week or so since I dropped some other stuff my libido has been HIGH. It's like being 15 again.


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## Bricktop1436114614 (Mar 13, 2009)

Interesting thread, especially with some of the stuff i have read about PCT being dangerous in itself.

So would you guys say blasting and cruising is better than blast and PCT?

i can imagine it being harder to recover, but is it ALOT harder if you was to blast and cruise for a while?


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## big (Sep 14, 2004)

Well, most of us that blast and cruise accept that we will be on for life. In fact, the majority probably want to be. That's not to say you can't recover having been on for years (I know plenty of people who have), but there are of course risks.

I think it's far better to blast/cruise than to cycle on/off. But that said, I accept I may shorten my life, may not have kids, may have health issues later etc etc. Then again, when I first started cycling, I accepted all of that as a risk too.

Go in with your eyes open, whatever you do.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

I honestly dont think it is as safe as sensible gear use.

Most guys cruise is some guys blast, and if this is the case then lipid profiles over time will take a hit, adrenal burnout is a big likelyhood.

I would not class it as safe.

If a guy is going to constantly cycle, then do a PCT, then go back on, then yah, go on, get it out of your system, then come off.

TRT for life does not seem like that great of an option, not to mention some day you will want to come off and have kids or something, forget that on a blast and cruise.

I have helped guys that have been on for a long time and there can be problems, health included.

HPTA wont recover with doses at the upper end of normal, further supression will happen, axis wont wake up again on a cruise.

I was on TRT for 10 months and was fully shut down, on TRT had the same shutdown as after a cycle.

I feel better recovered than I did on cycle.


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## Peter80 (Apr 8, 2009)

I blasted and cruised for 2 years. I am off now for 10+ months and i still dont feel myself most off the time and my T is still low end normal. If i could do it over i would not cruise and blast but cycle on and off its not worth it. Thats just my personal thought.


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## Mars (Aug 25, 2007)

Running a blast and cruise protocol doesen't mean you have to use doses that aren't sensible or safe though Scott.

I do see what you are getting at though and some guys do run cruises that would put some ppl's cycles to shame, it all comes down to that old cliche "use it but don't abuse it".


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## StackMan (Mar 28, 2009)

mars, at your doses would you be able to have kids when you come off?


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## big_jim_87 (Jul 9, 2009)

i am blast and cruising atm and use the cruse as a diet i have blast and cruised for the moste part of this year i will come off in jan have maybe 3 months off. i think i will do 9months on 3 months off each year. having kids is a big one for me as will probably try after the Mrs has finished her teaching degree in just under two years. after i have had 1 or 2 kids i will be on for life.....


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## Guest (Sep 29, 2009)

big_jim_87 said:


> i am blast and cruising atm and use the cruse as a diet i have blast and cruised for the moste part of this year i will come off in jan have maybe 3 months off. i think i will do 9months on 3 months off each year. having kids is a big one for me as will probably try after the Mrs has finished her teaching degree in just under two years. after i have had 1 or 2 kids i will be on for life.....


You will enjoy those 3 months:laugh: I know from personal experience! :beer:


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## pcuzz (Jun 26, 2009)

Con said:


> You will enjoy those 3 months:laugh: I know from personal experience! :beer:


So do you believe con 9 on 3 off is a nice ratio?


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## Guest (Sep 29, 2009)

pcuzz78 said:


> So do you believe con 9 on 3 off is a nice ratio?


Sure if you want a brutal 3 months half of which you may very well spend depressed at the world:laugh:

I say stay on do what you want to do then do Scott's pct and give it a lot of time!

Not every one can handle big doses but imo if your smart with training and diet you really don't need BIG doses. All that does is ramp up things like bp....

A low cruising dose ie under 300mg per week will do very little damage in the great scheme of things IMO but i am not a doctor so my opinion should not matter any way!


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## big_jim_87 (Jul 9, 2009)

ok so con you think just cruis and blast till want to come off?


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## pcuzz (Jun 26, 2009)

Con said:


> Sure if you want a brutal 3 months half of which you may very well spend depressed at the world:laugh:
> 
> I say stay on do what you want to do then do Scott's pct and give it a lot of time!
> 
> ...


Agree mate. Your not a doctor however I'm sure you have a damned lot more experience than myself!

It's always nice to get feedback and learn from people such as yourself so appreciate the feedback.

Thx


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## Guest (Sep 29, 2009)

big_jim_87 said:


> ok so con you think just cruis and blast till want to come off?


Well i think breaks are good but there is no point doing a short break then putting in a load of toxic pct drugs only to do a new cycle a short period of time later!

Every body responds differently you have to monitor your own body and make your own decisions based on how your body reacts. Its no good going "oh JW can do so in that case so can i"! Perhaps you have a very weak tolerance to gear and side effects show up very quickly.

What i mainly monitor is bp and cholesterol using a home testing kit. My hdl has been a bit low for a couple of years so i take a lot of suppluments to try and bring it up. Problem is low test is bad for hdl as is lots of gear thus i am in a no win situation!


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## big_jim_87 (Jul 9, 2009)

but i want some one to tell me what to do! so when it all go's tits up i can blame it all on them! what should i do con! what should i do!


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## Rebus (May 22, 2006)

mars1960 said:


> Dangerous!
> 
> As "dangerous" as cycling and PCT.
> 
> Iv'e been on B&C for years, get bloods done 3 x year, no health issues.


This is a view im believing in as im now of the opinion that on and off, the fluctuation of hormones, estrogen etc and the sides of pct meds has got to be worse than a low test cruise. Particularly in the older male adult ,, say 35yrs+ and also in particular if wanting children is not a consideration...


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## Rebus (May 22, 2006)

big said:


> Well, most of us that blast and cruise accept that we will be on for life. In fact, the majority probably want to be. That's not to say you can't recover having been on for years (I know plenty of people who have), but there are of course risks.
> 
> I think it's far better to blast/cruise than to cycle on/off. But that said, I accept I may shorten my life, may not have kids, may have health issues later etc etc. Then again, when I first started cycling, I accepted all of that as a risk too.
> 
> Go in with your eyes open, whatever you do.


To add to the above, im sure that a ' normal ' person having a ' normal ' life, no gym etc, but drinks more regular, perhaps smoke and doesn't really follow a particular type of diet, you know the type just eat what at hand and/or fancy, will have just as many and if not more issues later on in life....


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## Kezz (Sep 3, 2007)

i only ever take small amounts even when on, 500-750 per week for 3 month then 250 once per fortnight when cruising(3 months)... i find that works best now, i dont want to take high doses anymore due to my age


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## Mars (Aug 25, 2007)

StackMan said:


> mars, at your doses would you be able to have kids when you come off?


I don't know TBH, but i'm 49 and don't want kids, i also know that i will never come off par se. Though i just recently came off everything for 9wks, it wasn't until week 9 that i started to feel a drop in libido and mood, i have now made the decision to come off everything for about 8wks every 12-14 months.


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## baz1983 (Aug 29, 2009)

I can see how blasting and cruisin appeals to alot of people now. Not in my case cos i want kids in the future, but definitely lots to think about! :thumb:


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## Damo86 (Aug 7, 2009)

might sound dumd but wouldn't your balls, like, waste away to nothing?

If you where on for xx years would it even be possible to make your balls snap back into action, and if you could wake them up would they even work properly?

Blasting/cruising just confuses me to be honest, I just dont get how a guy can do it to his balls.


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## Greyphantom (Oct 23, 2003)

Damo86 said:


> might sound dumd but wouldn't your balls, like, waste away to nothing?
> 
> If you where on for xx years would it even be possible to make your balls snap back into action, and if you could wake them up would they even work properly?
> 
> Blasting/cruising just confuses me to be honest, I just dont get how a guy can do it to his balls.


Weeelll seeing as I dont often have my balls on display for the world to see and those who get to see them dont care too much for the size they are, I would rather have the chest, shoulders, back, arms and legs... plus I have two kids already and dont particularly want any more...


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## baz1983 (Aug 29, 2009)

Greyphantom said:


> Weeelll seeing as I dont often have my balls on display for the world to see and those who get to see them dont care too much for the size they are, I would rather have the chest, shoulders, back, arms and legs... plus I have two kids already and dont particularly want any more...


How long have you been blasting and cruising then?


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## Guest (Sep 29, 2009)

Ok i am curious. When you guys say "my balls are the size of peas" are you actually being serious?! Mine have shrunk before but never smaller than a large grape ie perhaps 10-20% of total size. Surely your nuts are not really getting THAT small????


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## big_jim_87 (Jul 9, 2009)

not in me any way lol cant talk for every one else tho lol

for me its the sack gets very tight to the balls like it is real cold! that is it realy tho


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## baz1983 (Aug 29, 2009)

Grape...... mine aint that big normal! Lol


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## Greyphantom (Oct 23, 2003)

I have not yet done a blast/cruise run... but I have run extended cycles that have similarities... most of my cycles were damn near back to back anyway so with this idea of blast and cruise I will probably just stay on at a low to mod dose then ramp up in a blast... however, in the long cycles I have run in the past I dont worry about my sack shrinking a bit (although they dont seem to shrink to raisin size as some mention)... plus now I am an old fart with a family its less important if I dont have any more children.


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## Greyphantom (Oct 23, 2003)

Con said:


> Ok i am curious. When you guys say "my balls are the size of peas" are you actually being serious?! Mine have shrunk before but never smaller than a large grape ie perhaps 10-20% of total size. Surely your nuts are not really getting THAT small????


Likewise... even in my longest cycle (nearly 6 months) mine didnt shrink to pea size... bit bigger than a grape though... :wink:


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## Guest (Sep 29, 2009)

Greyphantom said:


> Likewise... even in my longest cycle (nearly 6 months) mine didnt shrink to pea size... bit bigger than a grape though... :wink:


:laugh::laugh::laugh: Tbh i have been using gear for the past 4 years honestly more than 50% of the time so i can't remember what my nuts were at my youthful 19 year old natural status.......

The time fvcking flies by!


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## baz1983 (Aug 29, 2009)

big boys round here! lol


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## Greyphantom (Oct 23, 2003)

Con said:


> :laugh::laugh::laugh: Tbh i have been using gear for the past 4 years honestly more than 50% of the time so i can't remember what my nuts were at my youthful 19 year old natural status.......
> 
> The time fvcking flies by!


Time does indeed fly mate... I have just spent 4 or so years clean so they were full and swinging back to my pre 25 days...  course now that I am back into training and using some sterling supplements that is not the case... but still not too bad...


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## Guest (Sep 29, 2009)

Greyphantom said:


> Time does indeed fly mate... I have just spent 4 or so years clean so they were full and swinging back to my pre 25 days...  course now that I am back into training and using some sterling supplements that is not the case... but still not too bad...


Tbh i feel fine off gear once pct is fully over.

What i don't enjoy is not making progress.

I think most people think you lose tons of size or feel absalutely terrible and this may be true for the first couple of months but after that it should be clear sailing for most people.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

My nuts get the size of almonds outside the shell, after approx 10 weeks.


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## ryoken (Jan 8, 2009)

I can honestly say i dont know how big my nuts are supposed to be naturally as i never measured them before hand although they are alot bigger now whilst im running hcg along side my cycle then they were before but cant say if they are as big as there ment to be:confused1: :confused1:

anyone fancy cupping them to check??????? :whistling: :whistling:


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## big_jim_87 (Jul 9, 2009)

ooo yea that remindes me i need a to do a shot of hcg! thnx!


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## Hardc0re (Apr 21, 2009)

Well since we are going to be having a baby in the next few weeks, i think i may start a blast cruise for a few months. Ive always came off in the past and done the full PCT.


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## big_jim_87 (Jul 9, 2009)

yea i will come off when i try for kids and as soon as i have one the gear will go in and never stop! no cruse just blast! yea buddy!


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## Damo86 (Aug 7, 2009)

Greyphantom said:


> Weeelll seeing as I dont often have my balls on display for the world to see and those who get to see them dont care too much for the size they are, I would rather have the chest, shoulders, back, arms and legs... plus I have two kids already and dont particularly want any more...


Actually thats a good point, I'd probably trade a bit of ball size for added buffness given the chance.


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## ba baracuss (Apr 26, 2004)

Con said:


> Tbh i feel fine off gear once pct is fully over.
> 
> What i don't enjoy is not making progress.
> 
> I think most people think you lose tons of size or feel absalutely terrible and this may be true for the first couple of months but after that it should be clear sailing for most people.


How are you finding things now mate?

Have you kept a good amount of size and strength?


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## Guest (Sep 30, 2009)

ba baracuss said:


> How are you finding things now mate?
> 
> Have you kept a good amount of size and strength?


Yeah not bad. 225lb with decent abbs, arms just a tad under 19 inches, strength has not really changed much at all i just get sorer and can't train as often. Sex drive is not what it normally is but it all works fine....


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## Catsup007 (Dec 17, 2008)

So basically If you decide to blast-cruise year round, you probably won't ever come back right? And what would happen If you blast and cruise for let's say a year and you run a good pct and you stop for a couple of years, will everything come back to normal or is it unlikely?


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## Mars (Aug 25, 2007)

Catsup007 said:


> So basically If you decide to blast-cruise year round, you probably won't ever come back right? And what would happen If you blast and cruise for let's say a year and you run a good pct and you stop for a couple of years, will everything come back to normal or is it unlikely?


No, i wouldn't say that, in the majority of cases a return to full function is quite possible, however there will be always be exceptions.


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## markgym (Sep 27, 2009)

im taking mega test 350 with anabol tabs at moment, thinking of adding some deca. what do you think?


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## baz1983 (Aug 29, 2009)

Are there any young guys out there blasting and cruising that are planning on having kids? If you were blasting and cruising for a year or more would kids still be likely?

How long to get back to normal?


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## Peter80 (Apr 8, 2009)

Thats something nobody can tell you.


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## ba baracuss (Apr 26, 2004)

Con said:


> Yeah not bad. 225lb with decent abbs, arms just a tad under 19 inches, strength has not really changed much at all i just get sorer and can't train as often. Sex drive is not what it normally is but it all works fine....


Glad to hear it's all pretty much positive. Nice to know you can still maintain a lot of what you had now you're off. :thumbup1:



Catsup007 said:


> So basically If you decide to blast-cruise year round, you probably won't ever come back right? And what would happen If you blast and cruise for let's say a year and you run a good pct and you stop for a couple of years, will everything come back to normal or is it unlikely?


Con did pretty much that, and as you can see, seems to have recovered well.


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## baz1983 (Aug 29, 2009)

ok but would like to here from any guys under 30 doing this?


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## Peter80 (Apr 8, 2009)

Everybody is different. I am under 30 and did blast and cruise for 2 years. Are you going to be a proffessional bodybuilder or strongman is this your living or job? If not there is no need to blast and cruise. Its not worth it. If your allready on for life i can understand otherwise i dont.


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## hilly (Jan 19, 2008)

baz1983 said:


> Are there any young guys out there blasting and cruising that are planning on having kids? If you were blasting and cruising for a year or more would kids still be likely?
> 
> How long to get back to normal?


Im 23 and have been on since jan this year. I did a pre contest cycle then droped the dosage down to 250mg per week from june until 2 weeks ago. i have now upped to 500mg per week and will stick with this dose until i stop making gains then i will increase again. this will continue until i start my pre contest diet for my first ever show jan/feb time. i will be on until may when i compete then i will be coming off until my natty test levels come back in the normal range. wether that takes 4 months or 6 months we shall see. if their not back after 6 months maybe a little longer ill re evaluate my options then.

i would like to be able to have kids however i accept the fact that i am damaging my chances of doing this but i accept that.

I also get bloods done every 3 months and have no issues at all. everything is were it should be according to the doc so im happy if hes happy


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## Mars (Aug 25, 2007)

baz1983 said:


> Are there any young guys out there blasting and cruising that are planning on having kids? If you were blasting and cruising for a year or more would kids still be likely?
> 
> How long to get back to normal?


Most likely, in 99% of cases azoospermia (through steroid use) is reversible on cessation, this can however take 12-18 months or more.


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## baz1983 (Aug 29, 2009)

good info guys thanks!


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

mars1960 said:


> No, i wouldn't say that, in the majority of cases a return to full function is quite possible, however there will be always be exceptions.


Bang on Mars........I totally agree.

But the longer you are on, the harder it may be to return to normal.

Many guys cant hang so they go back on.

Some even become suicidal.

I saw my twin brother crumble into a shell of a man he was, took him a year to recover from a deca cycle @ 600mg a week for 13 weeks.

He had panic attacks, jacked up dry skin, no libido what so ever and sex was not possible even with viagra, he was anxious, depressed, possessivee, jealous and all the atributes he is not.

I am not lying one bit here, it was very hard for me to see this and not be able to do anything about it.

Dude would be crying when I talked to him and he didnt know why.

I told my self back when (6 years ago) that I will do everything in my power to help others out, so for over 6 years I made it a mission to find out all I could about PCT and recovery.

To this day I learn things that help me to better understand, and be better at this.

Worst thing in the world to watch a man fall apart and not be able to do a damn thing about it.

For this reason alone is what drew me to this board and the sole reason for my joining way back when.


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## LittleChris (Jan 17, 2009)

hackskii said:


> Bang on Mars........I totally agree.
> 
> But the longer you are on, the harder it may be to return to normal.
> 
> ...


Great post, speaks volumes about you as a person :beer:


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## baz1983 (Aug 29, 2009)

hackskii said:


> Bang on Mars........I totally agree.
> 
> But the longer you are on, the harder it may be to return to normal.
> 
> ...


Full respect to ya bro! :thumb:


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Thanks guys, I think if you go back and read wingers first post you might find some of the why I do things.

Nothing is worse than seeing a guy helpless and you cant do anything about it.

He leaned on his wife and she equated that as being needy and almost busted their relationship.

Crashing is no joke, guys either go back on or even temped suicide.

It is nasty.

Thanks for the kind words brothers.


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## Catsup007 (Dec 17, 2008)

hackskii said:


> Bang on Mars........I totally agree.
> 
> But the longer you are on, the harder it may be to return to normal.
> 
> ...


It seems to me you've completed your mission mate, and a sad story as well, I guess everyone reacts different to the crashing, I never end learning here. Good stuff.


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## Peter80 (Apr 8, 2009)

hackskii said:


> Bang on Mars........I totally agree.
> 
> But the longer you are on, the harder it may be to return to normal.
> 
> ...


This happend to me. Spot on exactly the same. Hackskii your the man thank you very much for helping all those guys out.

Never ever i want to be in that state again never and i wish no man to go through this. I am still not recoverd and have low T but the sharpness is off it now and i manage. And its one of the reason i am against blasting and cruising for guys not on TRT.


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## skaman007 (Oct 10, 2008)

mars1960 said:


> I don't know TBH, but i'm 49 and don't want kids, i also know that i will never come off par se. Though i just recently came off everything for 9wks, it wasn't until week 9 that i started to feel a drop in libido and mood, i have now made the decision to come off everything for about 8wks every 12-14 months.


 when you cum off for those 8 weeks per year, do you do a full pct in them 8 weeks ,or take nothing?


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

i B&C last year did 2 10 week blasts and a 12 week cruise found it to be decent but the second 10 week blast gave me 50% of the gains i had on the first.....for me it was not that great to be honest i would rather come off then get the boost when i go back on but as it has been said many times we are all different...

i do think that if you are in your early 20's and want kids in the future then you should not do this for me the risk is to high to spoil your chances of having kids....chances are you will be fine but only after a very long time off but why take the chance...?


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## Van (May 22, 2009)

Con said:


> Ok i am curious. When you guys say "my balls are the size of peas" are you actually being serious?! Mine have shrunk before but never smaller than a large grape ie perhaps 10-20% of total size. Surely your nuts are not really getting THAT small????


 :lol: I think a ''gooseberry'' would be a more apporiate fruit for this analogy we all make!

If im wrong and you fellas do have balls the size of garden peas i think were gonna have to nominate a ball size adjudicator lol as i find this hard to believe :laugh::laugh::laugh:


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

I know a guy that was on for years, his wife said he had nuts that looked like an ear lobe.

I think something was metioned that they went back up inside.


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## Smokey69 (Aug 12, 2006)

Should it not be possible to maintain fertility through use of HCG while blasting and crusing?

If you always use HCG then the balls never shutdown and therfore keep producing sperm don't they?


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

You need FSH along with LH for sperm maturation.

I am not sure that HCG would have enough influence on FSH to do much of anything.

Might be some but not enough IMO.

HMG on the other hand yes.


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## pbul2004 (Sep 10, 2008)

so weather you blast and cruise or do a cycle/pct then long break - to what extent or how much would it take to be in a situation where you might not be able to have kids? im 24 and would like kids lol


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

pbul2004 said:


> so weather you blast and cruise or do a cycle/pct then long break - to what extent or how much would it take to be in a situation where you might not be able to have kids? im 24 and would like kids lol


Around a year to fully recover, may take longer, may take less, far less with intervention of drugs to recover.


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## Chris4Pez1436114538 (Sep 3, 2007)

hackskii said:


> You need FSH along with LH for sperm maturation.
> 
> I am not sure that HCG would have enough influence on FSH to do much of anything.
> 
> ...


Whats HMG scott i would be interested to know about this as you know i am on my 1st blast and cruise and am intending on doing it for about a year or so blasting and cruising every 8-12 weeks.

I know you have said i cant have HCG all way through but you also told me to carry on with adex @ .5mg eod or ed or e3d etc how often as needed is it safe to use adex that often or is there an alternative to use with my blast n cruise?


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

HMG (Human Menotropin Gonadatropin) is a drug that mimics mainly FSH where HCG mimics LH used together recovery especially fertility should be quicker and more efficient.

i certainly do not believe using either whilst Blasting and Cruising will stop the HPTA being suppressed those who choose to B&C need to accept they will be suppressed....


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## ba baracuss (Apr 26, 2004)

Pscarb said:


> HMG (Human Menotropin Gonadatropin) is a drug that mimics mainly FSH where HCG mimics LH used together recovery especially fertility should be quicker and more efficient.
> 
> i certainly do not believe using either whilst Blasting and Cruising will stop the HPTA being suppressed those who choose to B&C need to accept they will be suppressed....


Do you know of anyone who has used naltrexone to successfully prevent suppression yet? I believe you used it in a PCT and found no improvement in recovery.... it's best used during cycle isn't it?


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## glanzav (Sep 11, 2008)

most people have say there last shot of sust then go on a four week break and jump back on

not forgetting the sust is long acting and is still in the system

when i run a cycle unless im gonna have a real good long break

i cut out the long acting esters 5 weeks from the end and start running the short acting like prop so when i get onto my pct my blood is more gear free

blasting and crusing is ok if your at the top of your game otherwise i would just take time off

once im well next year im gonna have a crack at 6 weeks on 6 weeks off using fast acting gear in the 6 weeks off i may run some peptides or something with have no effects on test levels and hpta


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

ba baracuss said:


> Do you know of anyone who has used naltrexone to successfully prevent suppression yet? I believe you used it in a PCT and found no improvement in recovery.... it's best used during cycle isn't it?


it certainly did not do anything for my levels but in saying that i was all ready suppressed as i started it after a 12 week cruise plus after speaking to my Doc in South Wales he thinks the dose i used (5mg 3xweek) was to little and should be used in the 25-50mg per day range.....


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## glanzav (Sep 11, 2008)

how about pt141 that would help wouldnt it


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## Chris4Pez1436114538 (Sep 3, 2007)

so in your opinion paul while blasting and cruising would you not bother using anything such as HCG or anything li8ke that even if i am going to be doing it for say 12 months+ ?


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## ba baracuss (Apr 26, 2004)

Pscarb said:


> it certainly did not do anything for my levels but in saying that i was all ready suppressed as i started it after a 12 week cruise plus after speaking to my Doc in South Wales he thinks the dose i used (5mg 3xweek) was to little and should be used in the 25-50mg per day range.....


Yeah I read some of that on UKI. The Russian guy is of the opinion only low dose is needed as I recall.

I was just wondering if you knew of anyone who had started running it from a non-suppressed state. I think JW was going to run it, but since he's not come off gear for about 5 years I guess he's not the best candidate either


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## Guest (Dec 23, 2009)

This board is obsessed with this topic!

At the end of the day every thing has consequences but i wish people would stop grouping every thing into one group. The guys that run test year round in low doses for the most part and trust me there are a lot of these guys some pros such as Phil Hernon actually recommend this technique will be with out a doubt healthier than the stupid cnuts that run big massive cycles and think a couple of months will fix every thing.

500mg test for most of the year or 2-3 grams of mixed steroids for 4 months then 4 months off it does not take a genius to see which will cause the most damage.

Being off gear is not exactly great either at least for the period that you need to recover. Depression, loss of muscle, exotic chemicals to try and restart the natural hormones, more depression....yeah thats real fvcking healthy compared to running a dose of test large enough to keep the body in a positive nitrogen balance.

I actually become a little sick every time i see this thread go up because i know some guys will base their entire decision of what they do based on a few replies here FFS.

Running hcg year round is a smart idea IMO, its part of many hrt treatments and there is nothing wrong with it.

It is very hard to get in the states count your self lucky in the UK!

Study after study show the damaging affects of various steroids especially when combined with things like gh yet you don't see many negative studies about low-moderate dose test use, because it is not a negative IMO.


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## tom jones (Jul 7, 2008)

Totally agree with you Con...Felling a little sorry for you though, I'll put some HCG in the post for you tomorrow:beer:.......(joke)


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## Sylar (Sep 7, 2008)

Pscarb said:


> it certainly did not do anything for my levels but in saying that i was all ready suppressed as i started it after a 12 week cruise plus after speaking to my Doc in South Wales he thinks the dose i used (5mg 3xweek) was to little and *should be used in the 25-50mg per day range....*.


Are you planning on using it at that dose on any future cycles bud?

If so, I'm genuinely looking forward to reading the bloods and hope it works out for you man.

Haven't done allot of research into it myself yet, but it does seem very intriguing. Good luck anyway's. :thumbup1:


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## Chris4Pez1436114538 (Sep 3, 2007)

Con said:


> This board is obsessed with this topic!
> 
> At the end of the day every thing has consequences but i wish people would stop grouping every thing into one group. The guys that run test year round in low doses for the most part and trust me there are a lot of these guys some pros such as Phil Hernon actually recommend this technique will be with out a doubt healthier than the stupid cnuts that run big massive cycles and think a couple of months will fix every thing.
> 
> ...


Like what con as i was/am thinkin about using HGH but i want to read/learn (here we go again i know i am a learning addict lmao) about it before i start using it as thats what i did with AAS and believe it or not even supplements like creatine and protein lol.


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

Chris4Pez said:


> so in your opinion paul while blasting and cruising would you not bother using anything such as HCG or anything li8ke that even if i am going to be doing it for say 12 months+ ?


well using HCG whilst on cycle any cycle is a good idea in my opinion



 ba baracuss said:


> Yeah I read some of that on UKI. The Russian guy is of the opinion only low dose is needed as I recall.
> 
> I was just wondering if you knew of anyone who had started running it from a non-suppressed state. I think JW was going to run it, but since he's not come off gear for about 5 years I guess he's not the best candidate either


no probably not  i will use it at some point not sure when though



Con said:


> This board is obsessed with this topic!
> 
> At the end of the day every thing has consequences but i wish people would stop grouping every thing into one group. The guys that run test year round in low doses for the most part and trust me there are a lot of these guys some pros such as Phil Hernon actually recommend this technique will be with out a doubt healthier than the stupid cnuts that run big massive cycles and think a couple of months will fix every thing.
> 
> ...


i will agree with Con on the fact that using low dose cruising will not have the negative effects as crashing your HPTS once or twice a year at least.....

i would like to see these studies though that show the damaging effects of various steroids combined with GH



Sylar said:


> Are you planning on using it at that dose on any future cycles bud?
> 
> If so, I'm genuinely looking forward to reading the bloods and hope it works out for you man.
> 
> Haven't done allot of research into it myself yet, but it does seem very intriguing. Good luck anyway's. :thumbup1:


cheers mate, not sure when i will be using it when i do my Doc friend who runs the Bentley miller private practice will monitor me...


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## danimal (Aug 14, 2012)

all in all if your not spending roughly the same time off as on you WILL suffer if u carry this on over many years! lets be honest most older bbers who have competed for a sustained period of years are never goin to come off and recover to a reasonable standard


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## danimal (Aug 14, 2012)

im 25 ive been off 6 months and im still only just recovered after a good solid year of steroid use and competition cycles i hazard to think if i was 45 i wouldnt be able to


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## mick_the_brick (Oct 29, 2008)

Con said:


> This board is obsessed with this topic!
> 
> At the end of the day every thing has consequences but i wish people would stop grouping every thing into one group. The guys that run test year round in low doses for the most part and trust me there are a lot of these guys some pros such as Phil Hernon actually recommend this technique will be with out a doubt healthier than the stupid cnuts that run big massive cycles and think a couple of months will fix every thing.
> 
> ...


Post up the studies Con


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## stone14 (Mar 24, 2005)

> Originally Posted by *mars1960*
> 
> Yes i have.
> 
> ...





big said:


> I would agree with this, completely, and find the same myself.


so would an anti e or ai be a good idea during cruising also?


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## TAFFY (Jun 3, 2009)

some interesting posts guys iam bin on now since july was thinking of comming of over xmas and start of new year,after reading some of posts unsure what to do weather stay on low dose or come of for while,ive bin tappering down to 3mil test en a week,but don wan to do, :confused1:


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

glanzav said:


> how about pt141 that would help wouldnt it


That is for libido and not recovery.


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## stone14 (Mar 24, 2005)

i like the test taper idea of coming off long cycles......


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## Old but not out (Sep 8, 2009)

stone14 said:


> so would an anti e or ai be a good idea during cruising also?


Yes it is essential the peaks that occur in testosterone during a cruise even when you dose 75mg twice week will ensure a gradual in increase in estrogen.

It is worth noting that increases in estrogen do not occur as a result of increased aromatase but as a result of increased testosterone - the more testosterone present the more chance it bumps into an aromatase molecule. For this reason the steadier you can keep blood levels during a cruise the less estrogen will be produced. The less frequently you inject (and therefore with greater volumes of T) the more AI you will require.

The other factor that requires thought with regard to AI and cruise is age - the older you are the more likely you will need an AI and the higher the likely dose.


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## stone14 (Mar 24, 2005)

do you keep estrogen at a normal level with ai or anti-e during blast also or just if it causes probelms, gyno etc?

also you will only need ai or anti e for about 4weks into cruise since normal dose test (100mg ew) will give normal estrogen levels also? i was thinking of using mast with test for cruising to free test at a lower dose and anti-e effects, but it will depend on your blast cycle and cruise dose wont it?.

letro is the cheapest i can get hold of, but its also the strongest out of the AI's isnt it?

do AI'S effect libido?


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## hilly (Jan 19, 2008)

i wouldnt use an ai when cruising to be honest. I personally have had no need to this year. All my blood test and ecg have been fine and ive now been on a year.

So much estrogen is a good thing and taking an ai when cruising will lower it to much and isnt needed in my opinion.

I got a little gyno on my last blast so added in aromasin half a tab every other day and it went ive now droped down to a cruise dose and stoped immediatly the ai and i have no gyno issues.


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## stone14 (Mar 24, 2005)

do you see a place for it if coming off long cycles and blast and cruise to get eatrogen down asap to aid recover?


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## danimal (Aug 14, 2012)

the problem im o with blast cruising is after a coulpe months on 1-2g of gear lpu when u drop down to 500mg or less yuo feel like your off gear!!! oestrogen is still high from your blast your receptors are ****ed and used to way more and ure body is producing all the counteractive hormones (cortisol etc) in response to teh higher dose but your on the lower dose so u feel like ****! most people end up running a much higher cruise then to compensate!! also lets be honest who knows what your going to want in ten years time!?! i look at it like this im 25 now and i have smashed the gear int he last few years, and had a LOT of fun but imagine if in 5-10 years im with someone i really love and we get married then I cant have kids or I cant get a proper boner or have a proper sex life! i think id sooner come off gear for reasonable periods than have to face that! what you lot do is your own choice... believe me im not preaching btwq i just think a lot of people are gonna end up ****ed from jumping onto this blast cruise at the drop of a hat because its the forum "trend" at the mo


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## LittleChris (Jan 17, 2009)

I was under the impression that this receptor downregulation theory was just internet myth.

People make their own choices, just seems that some people want justification for their choices...


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## hilly (Jan 19, 2008)

LittleChris said:


> I was under the impression that this receptor downregulation theory was just internet myth.
> 
> People make their own choices, just seems that some people want justification for their choices...


exactly blokes on HRT dont have issue with boners etc.

You do your research you make educated choices and you deal with the consequences


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## Uriel (Oct 14, 2008)

danimal said:


> because its the forum "trend" at the mo


Blast cruising is far from being a forum trend.

It actually came about because of the ease muscle drops off when off cycle.

You should look at tapers to answer the issues you raise in your post of going from 2g to 500mg.

There's a lot of good info on blast cruising properly but it needs thinking about and studying to see if it suits each individual...As said it isn't the latest fad - it is actually a very successfull way of running gear I mean if you don't ever want to face any the issues gear brings - don't do it atall.

Cycling is not any better for you than blast cruising unless you have long breaks - and see how you build a top body doing that if you are average


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## danimal (Aug 14, 2012)

lol well talking as someone who has done it for a year, i felt like **** when on a cruise of under 500mg and even if u stay on the same dose say a gram of test for a long period of time ure sex drive will drop off! well it does in my case anyway! also i have found unless i come off gear altogether for a few weeks my receptors clog up and i make no urther gains than teh initial gains in fact often maybe even lose some while still on!

all i can do is tell you in my experience staying on gear for long periods of time is counter productive and better gains can be attained from short cycles with even shorter breaks (ie 6 on 4 off) however the safest way imo is time on -== at least time off! im quite sure some of the guys who are on a shot of test for the rest of their lives now ill tell u the same thing!

that being said its up to you all to make your own choices, im just saying in my experience the benefits do not out weigh the risks and nor do the gains


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## danimal (Aug 14, 2012)

re receptor downregulation maybe some of the more experienced guys who have run long cycles (paul james l etc) at higher doses could add their 2 pennies? there must bea reasonwhy gains slow and stop after a long period of time on, if its not receptor down reg then it must be catabolic hormonal releases or somethign the like?


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## Uriel (Oct 14, 2008)

danimal said:


> lol well talking as someone who has done it for a year, i felt like **** when on a cruise of under 500mg and even if u stay on the same dose say a gram of test for a long period of time ure sex drive will drop off! well it does in my case anyway!


I've been on 15 months. High of 1850mg EW mixed meds, 6 week cruises on 250mg ew.

No AI, no serm, no HCG no problems


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## danimal (Aug 14, 2012)

LOL yes but you are a machine!! lol


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## LittleChris (Jan 17, 2009)

danimal said:


> lol well talking as someone who has done it for a year, i felt like **** when on a cruise of under 500mg and even if u stay on the same dose say a gram of test for a long period of time ure sex drive will drop off! well it does in my case anyway! also i have found unless i come off gear altogether for a few weeks my receptors clog up and i make no urther gains than teh initial gains in fact often maybe even lose some while still on!
> 
> all i can do is tell you in my experience staying on gear for long periods of time is counter productive and better gains can be attained from short cycles with even shorter breaks (ie 6 on 4 off) however the safest way imo is time on -== at least time off! im quite sure some of the guys who are on a shot of test for the rest of their lives now ill tell u the same thing!
> 
> that being said its up to you all to make your own choices, im just saying in my experience the benefits do not out weigh the risks and nor do the gains


I don't see what short cycles achieve? You shut yourself down, the break will not normalise anything, then go straight back on. Seems rather illogical.

As for not gaining, thats more likely due to training and diet TBH rather than receptors 'clogging up'


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## Uriel (Oct 14, 2008)

Of course receptors get less responsive and cortisol etc rises ...you can't stay on higher and higher dodses for ever but there are people on this forum right now been on more than 1g a week for years blasting on 3 or 4g and still gaining


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## Uriel (Oct 14, 2008)

danimal said:


> LOL yes but you are a machine!! lol


Well oiled most of the time


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## LittleChris (Jan 17, 2009)

danimal said:


> re receptor downregulation maybe some of the more experienced guys who have run long cycles (paul james l etc) at higher doses could add their 2 pennies? there must bea reasonwhy gains slow and stop after a long period of time on, if its not receptor down reg then it must be catabolic hormonal releases or somethign the like?


Well you can't keep growing all the time, the body grows in spurts.

If growth was linear then we would all be huge.

I think a good approach is to use the cruise period for priming and shifting a few lbs of fat, then the blast is to add some lean tissue as the body will be more receptive to the nutrients following the prime. Interesting article by Marcus300 that I have posted on here before.


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## danimal (Aug 14, 2012)

lol oh golly this is turning into me vs everyone haha i not trying to haev no forum fights lol just trying (badly) to put my experience across


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## Uriel (Oct 14, 2008)

Blast cruising still isn't perfect - you still have to go from a high amount of AAS at some point to a lower amount...the catabolic balance can and does swing in favour of decreased size even in this controllable state if you are clever and carfeful

... but to go from a high androgen state - to fuk all (cycling) - trying desperately to get your p1ssy little pathetc squirt of natty juice online quickley into muscles that are not really in a receptor state to use it - spells rapid shrinking post cycle disaster for many...usually made worse by training too much and eating too much - hello fatty no size!!


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## Mikazagreat (Apr 10, 2009)

Con said:


> Ok i am curious. When you guys say "my balls are the size of peas" are you actually being serious?! Mine have shrunk before but never smaller than a large grape ie perhaps 10-20% of total size. Surely your nuts are not really getting THAT small????


worse shut down i had during my cycle after including winny they were in the size of peanuts, but it was sometimes hard to locate the smaller one. :lol: :lol:

had to check oném once in a while to make sure they still there.


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## Uriel (Oct 14, 2008)

mine don't shink that much TBH....you'd still feel them rattling off your chin


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## Testoholic (Jun 13, 2009)

ive been blasting and cruising for 3 years now, reading thru this thing that really strikes me is guys saying they even lose a bit of size whilst cruising, take away water retention ect, if your genuinley losing lean body mass during your cruise i find it incredible. my diet and training has always been spot on and i cant say i lose anything during cruise period except a bit of strength. personally if you are losing muscle gains on say 250mg test pw week, your either frigging huge or doing something wrong...


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

I was on TRT for about 10 months and in that time my libido was terrible, I didnt even feel as good as I normally do without anything.

I have had some of the worst lipid profiles ever that my doctor saw when on gear

(winstrol), and the endogenous testosterone of a girl.

Anyone that suggests going on grams of gear to cruise on 500mg a week or what ever is not in touch with reality.

Nobody can ballance endogenous hormones better than your own body.

Nobody knows the long term effects of constantly being "ON".

But, mark my words, we will know by the effects that will be transparent with those that stay on for prolonged periods of time.

Staying on will do nothing but serve one's ego and also allow you to keep more size than you are genetically pre-disposed to.

6 years ago when I joined the forum guys went on cycle to gain some size then off using a PCT.

Now the trend is to stay on and get as huge as you can then lower the dose to a cruise.

Life is about choices, I have seen my blood pressure up to Stage II stroke range, this can be a problem.

Lipid profiles worse the doc has ever seen, this as well can be a problem.

Testosterone levels of a girl, this can be a problem.

Jacked up libido, hell this can be a problem.

If you guys decide to do this, you need the doc to keep tabs on you, when things start to go bad, you need intervention, or conciquences can happen.

I am not picking on anyone or anything.

Two sides of every coin.

I feel so good now I really dont feel like going on another cycle even though I have stuff in hand.


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## gunit (Dec 13, 2006)

Do any of u guys that stay on all yr actually compete???im interested to no???Persoanlly im with Dan,a good clean break once a yr is great for renewed gains and also to clear ur head.Sure u will lose some muscle and fullness but if u keep ur diet in check and dnt over eat or overtrain then muscle can be maintained.Being off is more of a head game becasue u get softer and lose fullness,every individual varries due to genetics.Guys that compete every yr and do spring shows then winter shows are pretty much on all yr but this is there choice and everyone has a choice.

If ur just a night clubbing bodybuilder then being on all yr to me anyway is completely pointless and ur asking for trouble in the long run.

Of course u will get away with it now when were fresh and young but maybe in yrs to come we will all pay the price????

All i no is a decent break once a yr is only going to help the situation!!

A good break for me = reduced training,no overtraining or sets pushed to extreme failure,decent tight diet,reduced kcals,good pct and basically enjoying life other than bodybuilding!

Dan im with u brother!!!

G Unit


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## Testoholic (Jun 13, 2009)

gunit said:


> Do any of u guys that stay on all yr actually compete???im interested to no???Persoanlly im with Dan,a good clean break once a yr is great for renewed gains and also to clear ur head.Sure u will lose some muscle and fullness but if u keep ur diet in check and dnt over eat or overtrain then muscle can be maintained.Being off is more of a head game becasue u get softer and lose fullness,every individual varries due to genetics.Guys that compete every yr and do spring shows then winter shows are pretty much on all yr but this is there choice and everyone has a choice.
> 
> If ur just a night clubbing bodybuilder then being on all yr to me anyway is completely pointless and ur asking for trouble in the long run.
> 
> ...


firstly how long a clean break do you reccomend mate?

to answer your question, i do not and have yet to compete. ive been blasting and cruising 3 years, i did have the intention of competing last year but had to pull out 6 weeks prior to show with injury. i may enter the portsmouth show in 2010. however i find the statement ' If ur just a night clubbing bodybuilder then being on all yr to me anyway is completely pointless and ur asking for trouble in the long run' is a bit insulting. no matter what you do your risking future health complications, and why isit pointless? because i dont get a little check and medal and stand in front of judges? i do it for myself, for my own personal pleasure and enjoyment. its a risk i take because i want to and for me the pro's outweigh the cons. thats my opinion...


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## Uriel (Oct 14, 2008)

gunit said:


> Do any of u guys that stay on all yr actually compete???im interested to no???Persoanlly im with Dan,a good clean break once a yr is great for renewed gains and also to clear ur head.Sure u will lose some muscle and fullness but if u keep ur diet in check and dnt over eat or overtrain then muscle can be maintained.Being off is more of a head game becasue u get softer and lose fullness,every individual varries due to genetics.Guys that compete every yr and do spring shows then winter shows are pretty much on all yr but this is there choice and everyone has a choice.
> 
> If ur just a night clubbing bodybuilder then being on all yr to me anyway is completely pointless and ur asking for trouble in the long run.
> 
> ...


I think everyone should be able to stay as safe as they can on the amount f gear they need to achieve a desired size.

For you to effectively say "It's ok to risk serious long term health to prance about in marmite and trunks" is fuking laughable to me personally as well as wrong


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## Guest (Dec 24, 2009)

Well Dan it is not fvcking suprise you have problems now.

You ran two grams of gear, felt like you crashed on 500mg test,

It was purely your fault that this happened, had you been smart and ran doses adequate for you size ie under 1 gram at all times just switching meds you would not have had the same problems. Areyou 250lb ripped and require so much gear to grow? No of course not.

Every one should take at least 3 months straight off per year. The longer the better but short little breaks between cycles is not healthy at all which seems to be the common practice.

If some of you guys started looking at your selves like athletes and lived the life style completely, most of these problems would be avoidable. Instead of the no idea how to train/eat okish/party/keep increasing the dose to make up for the other factors is asking for problems end of story.


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

Con said:


> If some of you guys started looking at your selves like athletes and lived the life style completely, most of these problems would be avoidable. Instead of the no idea how to train/eat okish/party/keep increasing the dose to make up for the other factors is asking for problems end of story.


Amen to that Con


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## Uriel (Oct 14, 2008)

The original qestion hasn't been touched upon - has it?

The guy wonders what the dangers of blast cruise are (we have to assume vs cycling, not taking gear atall).

You'll get people like hacksii that seem just not to get on with gear, I wouldn't touch the stuff if it did to me what it does to him. It wouldn't make any odd if you cycled or blast cruised - if you don't get on with gear.

If you do get on - fine.

Is there any people that get on with gear - have cycled and blast cruised and noticed health issues on either protocol?

yes anyone can see that taking 6 months or a year off must be good......having 10 years off is better - it's obvious.

BUT most don't....Is blast cruising inherently more dangerous than cycling gear?


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

well after 20yrs on gear the only real issue i have ever had was this year after a 32 week blast and cruise to be honest i did not like it i prefer to cycle then do PCT but then when i do PCT i do it properly and don't suffer many sides....


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## Mikazagreat (Apr 10, 2009)

Pscarb said:


> well after 20yrs on gear the only real issue i have ever had was this year after a 32 week blast and cruise to be honest i did not like it i prefer to cycle then do PCT but then when i do PCT i do it properly and don't suffer many sides....


 you have done the first cruise after 20 years of gear ? or i am just gettin it wrong !


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

no you have got it correct it was my first blast and cruise in 20yrs.....i have stayed on for a long time but that was on cycle not cruising....

this blast and cruise craze is a new thing for me many should not do it as very few look into their health as they should, many see it has a way not to lose weight after a cycle my personel feeling is that most not all are just to lazy or scared to handle the potential pitfalls of PCT and time off....for me i did not like it so will not do it again....

the focus on this thread is the HPTA but the whole body needs to rest after the onslaught of a cycle for me a well constructed PCT and rest from steroids is the way to go....


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## Mikazagreat (Apr 10, 2009)

Pscarb said:


> no you have got it correct it was my first blast and cruise in 20yrs.....i have stayed on for a long time but that was on cycle not cruising....
> 
> this blast and cruise craze is a new thing for me many should not do it as very few look into their health as they should, many see it has a way not to lose weight after a cycle my personel feeling is that most not all are just to lazy or scared to handle the potential pitfalls of PCT and time off....for me i did not like it so will not do it again....
> 
> the focus on this thread is the HPTA but the whole body needs to rest after the onslaught of a cycle for me a well constructed PCT and rest from steroids is the way to go....


 i decided to cruise because i don't wanna take such a long time between cycles, cause i am sure i won't wait 1 month off and 3 months off cycle, that will be sick long time for me it will kill the season and i wish that i'll be able to compete next summer.

I think i will take my chances and keep tracking of my blood work every 4-6 weeks to make sure if it's the right thing for me or not.


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

it is a personel choice for everyone and there is no wrong or right way to go.....i will say that i want to win the NABBA Britain next year and 9months off this year was certainly not in my plan to achieve this but i still believe i can have a crack at it come May.....


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## Chris4Pez1436114538 (Sep 3, 2007)

I do agree with you paul as there has been somany threads of people whom are on gear but not honest with the doc now to me this is pure stupidity (srry if that insults anyone)

I personally am 100% honest with my doc as how are you supposed toknow whats going on with your body inside it never mind out!

My doc knows i use gear and i have no problems with this, as i am an adult and tbh my doc actually respects me more for being honest with him than BS him and now i am starting a blast and cruise (well have started i am on 250mg of test ew on my cruise now) i am going to have my bloods done every coupleof months or so to keep check and the minute i feel that anything is going wrong i will do a full proper PCT and then have a rest off!

Guys if you gonna do this then be 100% honest with your doc your man enough to do gear so be man enough to be honest, plus its ok looking ok on the outside but what about the inside!


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## Mikazagreat (Apr 10, 2009)

Telling a doctor here that i am using gear for example will make him scream his lungs out for me to stop, most of'em doesn't have a clue about gear, and even if they do they will tell u it's gonna kill you just like everything else they been told to say while it's not true and i am not into hussle talk with somebody for no reason, not all doctors will be helpfull or understanding like urs.


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## Uriel (Oct 14, 2008)

then we're back into telling docs about gear - how many GP's know more than the basics about gear....how much of 5 years at med school is devoted purely to steroids????

Truth is unless Docs have any interest in it - they are just as likely to be naive or have had thier beliefs coloured by the media as any layman


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## LittleChris (Jan 17, 2009)

Chris4Pez said:


> I do agree with you paul as there has been somany threads of people whom are on gear but not honest with the doc now to me this is pure stupidity (srry if that insults anyone)
> 
> I personally am 100% honest with my doc as how are you supposed toknow whats going on with your body inside it never mind out!
> 
> ...


Wonder how your insurance policies will be affected by this. :whistling:


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

Uriel said:


> then we're back into telling docs about gear - how many GP's know more than the basics about gear....how much of 5 years at med school is devoted purely to steroids????
> 
> Truth is unless Docs have any interest in it - they are just as likely to be naive or have had thier beliefs coloured by the media as any layman


there are places around the UK that give full health checks to Bodybuilders if you are going to use gear why not travel to one of these clinics to get checked out??



LittleChris said:


> Wonder how your insurance policies will be affected by this. :whistling:


some will refuse you on the spot others won't personelly i would rather be honest and get my health checked than lie only for my partner to be told she cannot have anything if the worse was to happen.....but it is like everything in life it is a choice you make


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## LittleChris (Jan 17, 2009)

Pscarb said:


> there are places around the UK that give full health checks to Bodybuilders if you are going to use gear why not travel to one of these clinics to get checked out??
> 
> some will refuse you on the spot others won't personelly i would rather be honest and get my health checked than lie only for my partner to be told she cannot have anything if the worse was to happen.....but it is like everything in life it is a choice you make


Fully agree. Private clinics avoid this though don't they?


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## Uriel (Oct 14, 2008)

Pscarb said:


> there are places around the UK that give full health checks to Bodybuilders if you are going to use gear why not travel to one of these clinics to get checked out??


deffo the thing to do IMO, seek out the experts and I'm happy to pay for their expertise and experience


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## All4n (May 30, 2008)

Uriel said:


> I think everyone should be able to stay as safe as they can on the amount f gear they need to achieve a desired size.
> 
> *
> For you to effectively say "It's ok to risk serious long term health to prance about in marmite and trunks" is fuking laughable to me personally as well as wrong*


Completely agree. I always find it absolutely ridiculous when people come out with the old "oh it's ok to takes lots of gear constantly if you compete but not so if you do not compete". Competing suddenly makes it ok to risk your health? Compete or not health risks remain the same. It's lifestyle choice that contributes to potential problems. Fcuk, competing could make things worse if you think about it i.e extreme low levels of BF and more so if going down the diuretics et al route.

I think the main point to consider is do you have the will power stay off cycle long enough? If no then blast/cruise prob will be better. But just cos it's a blast doesn't mean it has to be several grams of gear. Also blood tests should be looked into by everyone not just the b/c guys.


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## stone14 (Mar 24, 2005)

i agree, you dont need to be competing to stay on etc, people can still want to reach there physical peak through aas and still not want to compete


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## Chris4Pez1436114538 (Sep 3, 2007)

I Do however want to be able to compete and i want to be as big and as successful as i can be in everything i do and that includes BB.

I also tell my insurance who cover me and my family about the steroid use and yes it increased it (only by a fraction) but well worth it IMPO!

As for people who say it stops you getting certain jobs this again is BS as i know for sure it does not as i have a friend who uses AAS and is the army and i also have another who is in the marines and they tell there doc everything as well, plus i have a friend who (yes i am going to admit this lol) is a police officer as well and they also take gear and am honest with there doc!

At the end of the day choice is yours but at uriel,s think about it o you think that they will know as think about it o you think that they will know as think about it gear was not essentially geard towards weight training or BB it was for medical reasons so docs know a hell of a lot more than you think, mine even though was against me using even suggested how to do it safely how to inject what to stack and what not to stack, how much the body can safely handle of certain things etc think about it its a form of medicine for certain types of patients wheather it be burn victims, aids, TRT, Muscle wastage the list goes on and on!


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## All4n (May 30, 2008)

Don't the police/fire brigade etc check medical records before they consider taking you on? I presumed AAS use would prevent you being able to enter the public service sector. I mean it is banned is it not in these professions?


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## Uriel (Oct 14, 2008)

All4n said:


> Don't the police/fire brigade etc check medical records before they consider taking you on? I presumed AAS use would prevent you being able to enter the public service sector. I mean it is banned is it not in these professions?


there is a very poor perception from anynone not "into" gear towards those who use. I would avoid any personal records containing this info. My Choice. My business.

If I want bloods done - I'll pay, it is then a service I have paid someone to do on my behalf and stays off the more public stuff. You'd be surprised where your medical records could end up


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## D-TROPIN (May 13, 2008)

lets not forget the adrenals can get burnt out with staying on too long.....cycling is the way forward....


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## Uriel (Oct 14, 2008)

D-TROPIN said:


> lets not forget the adrenals can get burnt out with staying on too long.....cycling is the way forward....


do adrenals know the differenct between synthetic cruise test and natty cruise test then??


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## stonecoldzero (Aug 30, 2009)

D-TROPIN said:


> lets not forget the adrenals can get burnt out with staying on too long.....cycling is the way forward....


Yes, adrenals can get burnt out .... but not necessarily from staying on too long. For example , no AAS whatsoever + overtraining can lead to burnout, as can chronic stress and multiple other factors.

As for "cycling is the way forward ... " - how do you know? Have you done both? How often?

My prescribed TRT dose averages out to 100mg per week. Unless a health issue arises as a result, I will up it to 250mg by self-administering the extra 150mg ie a cruise dose.

Why? Because I had a complete set of bloods from adrenal function to hormone panel done after being on 250mg for about 4 months. Everything came back fine - even in relation to one another. Although, admittedly, I did use adex and hcg in an attempt to achieve this result - and it appears to work.

Thing is, my T before the 250mg per week was 1 nmol/ltr (9-38 range). After, it was at 55nmol on the same scale. High? Yes, but not so high that the consultant endo had the least bit of a problem with it when I told him what I'd been doing, how much and how often. I haven't lied to him or omitted anything. As long as my bloods come back OK every 3 months or so, why lower it? I genuinely feel as if I've been given a new lease on life - sometimes I feel so good I can hardly stand it! 

A study came out of Harvard Medical School a few years back the findings of which suggested that higher than normal T levels (such as mine ie within reason) do not appear to result in health problems as opposed to the positive benefits resulting from having these higher levels.

And whenever I feel like it, I will up the dose (to a low 500-750mg) and adjust ai and hcg as necessary for a baby-blast here and there. Or maybe up the T to 500mg and do anavar for example.

Fact is, by being open and honest, I know not only what works for me but also what a specialist thinks of the outcome.

Unfortunately, until the scientists catch up to the bodybuilders, nobody's ever really going to know - even in 20 years time the data won't be particularly reliable as to cause and effect.

The only way around the debate which surrrounds the C&B issue (as well as AAS use generally) will be to develop new ethical standards when it comes to doing AAS related studies - because currently ethics authorities do not agree. Also, the scientific community needs to ditch its current bias.

Where are the East Germans when you need them? 

Until that happens, everyone has to rely on what they can find out and what they and others experience. So far, I know I'm OK .... BUT what about the next guy. It's still pretty much just guesswork combined with (fact based) anecdotal evidence.

It really is time to move forwards - because AAS are here and they're not going away.


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## Uriel (Oct 14, 2008)

adrenal burnout syndrom is more likely to be caused by stress than gear....look up the likeley causes


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## D-TROPIN (May 13, 2008)

gear can stress the body by pumping up adrenal hormine production whislt on cycle to compensate for the anabolic activity of test or from overstimulation ofthe nervous system similar to that of ephidrine(wich commonly causes burnout)

i myself have busted adrenals and the only link i personally have is prior to this happening i was on for 18 months straight blasting and cruising and whatever else i liked

im not saying that my case is what will happen to everyone..it probably wont but any STRESS on the body can overwork the adrenals..wether that be training..stimulants or horomones...

im not saying staying on WILL cause this im saying that it may well contribute to adrenal issues...wich are a bstard to sort out!!!.

in my opinon i never had a single health problem when i was sensible and cycled on and off...many people that i know that compete say that they felt there worst when staying on for long perioids to compete in show after show and advocate a big break in gear and even training for periods to allow the body to settle down and rebuild some reserve for the next round of training and prep ect....just think personally its beter to be smart and be in the game for the long haul and sacrifice a few pounds than go batering the blast cruise theory and POSSIBLY end up regretting it and loosing more ground than just cycling on and off

just my personal experience but am sure as has been mentioed everybody is different!

also blood testig for adrenals is practically useless as its only a snapshot of what is going on at that second and provides no idea of hopw much adrenal reserve you have left to fight stress or infections ect(this is usually when you find out if you have a deficincy)...i had an adrenal crisis with a serum blood cortisol level of 465(100-600)..just an indication as by most gps even sub 400 they would class as "fine!"


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Nice post, not too many people either talk about this issure nor admit it.



Uriel said:


> do adrenals know the differenct between synthetic cruise test and natty cruise test then??


Yes in the sense of context.

Lets do the math here, about 100mg a week of test cyp is the typical TRT dose followed by .5mg adex twice a week (typical).

Cruise for many is more than double that @ 250mg EW or even more.

So, yes over time adrenal burnout can be an issue here.



Uriel said:


> adrenal burnout syndrom is more likely to be caused by stress than gear....look up the likeley causes


Negative boss, with the combination of training and steroids yes adrenal burnout becomes a problem and lets not forget that DHT is a central system stimulant in regards to stimulation.

So, with the addition of added androgens above TRT doses there still will be more conversion of test to DHT than normally would occur during normal endogenous levels.

I have personally seen a friend that was on and off for 10 years and he was a freakin mess when it was all said and done.

HDL was just 5 which was the lowest the doctor ever saw ever.

He said the guy had a cardiovascular system of a 70 year old.

He had panic attacks, high blood pressure, anxiety, and very compromised lipid profile.

The whole idea here is to do this healthy and within reason, sure more gear will get you more results but sometimes an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

Dude above never had any of these issues prior too.


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

All4n said:


> competing could make things worse if you think about it i.e extreme low levels of BF and more so if going down the diuretics et al route.


yes they could but then diet when competing is alot cleaner than a disco BB's diet would you not agree??

at the end of the day we can all guess on what will or won't happen long term with cruising but that is all it is Guessing.....

As Scott has pointed out for most cruising is 250mg or more per week so no one can compare cruising to TRT as it is for most totally different.....

i can and will only comment on my own experiences...i have cycled for 18months straight and crashed very badly took me nearly 12months off cycle to get back into the normal range, i have B&C for 32 weeks and did not feel great plus after this i have had my worst side effect (protein in urine) now i am not naive to think it had nothing to do with the gear but then i also am not saying it was all down to the gear but the stress of being on for those 32 weeks could of contributed......i do know for sure that my best results and by this i mean poundage gained and kept plus how i felt in myself was when i cycle on and off......others will be different but i think many younger guys are using B&C as a way to get big with no care for their health....


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## Guest (Dec 25, 2009)

Originally Posted by All4n View Post

competing could make things worse if you think about it i.e extreme low levels of BF and more so if going down the diuretics et al route.

Explain to me the problems of being very lean. Sure diuretics are a problem but being very lean is no problem for the body especially the male body. Look at certain races and any top level athlete they are all very lean and this is not unhealthy in the least. I believe the problems occur from dieting down too quickly. I found it hard to function at a lean body weight but i had dropped 40lb in 14 weeks so its no surprise to me. The key is to stay as lean as possible year round.

Every thing needs to be cycled in one form or another.

Any "losses" from being off come back onto you within 4-6 weeks with utter ease.

Planning out your year is the biggest key IMO because considering time on combined with sufficient time off you are looking at two 12 week cycles in a 12 month period or two 16 week cycles in a 14 month period.

At the end of the day i have to laugh at the amateur gym rats giving out advice on this when the real athletes generally have different views to their own. In my case i know/have known many top level bb/strength athletes and very few of them share the same opinions as the average "internet" opinion BUT one thing stays consistent each and every one of them in some form or another have their limitations to how much gear and abuse they are willing to endure before a proper break (whatever that may be) and just by reading this thread it seems many of you rather keep pushing the engine until it burns out and you are forced to stop.

As far as adrenal fatigue, sure if you are fool hardy with your doses then every thing is bound to burn out but with smart use this will not happen at least to a degree that can not be combated.


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## Uriel (Oct 14, 2008)

Con said:


> At the end of the day i have to laugh at the amateur gym rats giving out advice on this when the* real athletes* generally have different views to their own.


And those are? :lol:


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## Guest (Dec 25, 2009)

Uriel said:


> And those are? :lol:


Not sure if you were around here when guys like James L and TT posted more in depth than they do now but those are two examples. Paul is the only other very experienced guy that regularly talks about this kind of thing.

If you don't consider bodybuilding contests athletes that is only because you have never competed.

But you sure do like to express your opinion on the matter when you are very new to the whole game which i find amusing to say the least


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## Uriel (Oct 14, 2008)

Con said:


> Not sure if you were around here when guys like James L and TT posted more in depth than they do now but those are two examples. Paul is the only other very experienced guy that regularly talks about this kind of thing.
> 
> If you don't consider bodybuilding contests athletes that is only because you have never competed.
> 
> But you sure do like to express your opinion on the matter when you are very *new to the whole game* which i find amusing to say the least


 :lol:

Fkn lol, just wanted to hear you say whatan athlete you are whilst all us scum can go wallow in the filth


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## Guest (Dec 25, 2009)

Uriel said:


> :lol:
> 
> Fkn lol, just wanted to hear you say whatan athlete you are whilst all us scum can go wallow in the filth


PMSL it is Christmas afterall i thought i would be nice  :laugh:


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## Uriel (Oct 14, 2008)

Con said:


> PMSL it is Christmas afterall i thought i would be nice  :laugh:


At the end of the day, I've been on this thread to learn any dangers of B?C.

There's not a fkn shred of anything been posted other than anecdotal waffle thus far by athletes, new comers or demi gods alike:thumbup1:


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## Guest (Dec 25, 2009)

Uriel said:


> At the end of the day, I've been on this thread to learn any dangers of B?C.
> 
> There's not a fkn shred of anything been posted other than anecdotal waffle thus far by athletes, new comers or demi gods alike:thumbup1:


And there never will be its all opinion after all FFS docs still can't even distinguish between good and bad meds as the constant problems that arise point out


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## Uriel (Oct 14, 2008)

Con said:


> And there never will be its all opinion after all FFS docs still can't even distinguish between good and bad meds as the constant problems that arise point out


I think that's the crux of the matter, we're all too different it appears with different tolerances.

1 guy takes multi gram stacks ew for years seemingly fine whilst other guys spring t1ts, get cancer and explode dead on 1/4g ew.

The sad thing is - there doesn't even seem to be a basic framework or 2 for someone to stick to to be safe.....that's how different we a all are.


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

Uriel said:


> At the end of the day, I've been on this thread to learn any dangers of B?C.
> 
> There's not a fkn shred of anything been posted other than anecdotal waffle thus far by athletes, new comers or demi gods alike:thumbup1:


firstly i certainly do not see myself as a demi god or new comer so not sure what you would class me as??

As for anything other than "anecdotal waffle" can you tell me what you expected please mate?? maybe scientific studies on B&C??....these forums on the whole are all about Anecdotal Waffle as you so kindly put it, to be fair you have added your fair share of "anecdotal waffle"......

at the end of the day the only true test is for you to do it yourself then you will know what is safe and what is not obvouisly with regular health checks....

As for a framework for what is safe, in the 20yrs i have been around this sport the safe option is to cycle time on = time off at the very least, if this time honoured process was not safe we all would be dropping dead now wouldn't we.....or getting cancer :lol:

let us all know how you get on..... :thumb:


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## hilly (Jan 19, 2008)

wel my experience this year blasting and cruising has been positive. i am at my heaviest at lowest bodyfat i have ever been altho i reckon i should be bigger due to time on but i can only work with what i have and couldnt have worked harder this year IMO.

all blood tests every 3 months have been fine plus ecg. rbc was high once at 53 average being 35-50 for males however this was while taking nap 50's so is expected.

I will be on till may then coming off and running a long pct atleast 4 months and see what happens.

the only negative effect i can honestly say i have isincreased then decreased libido and the odd erection issue which viargra sorted lol but no major issues that would worry me.

will i do it again? proberly but next year once i go back on i intend to try short 6 week on 6/8 week off cycle and see how i find these compare.

hilly


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## LittleChris (Jan 17, 2009)

Con I was under the impression you were on for close to a year on less than conservative doses anyway? i.e. 500mg plus.


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## LittleChris (Jan 17, 2009)

You feeling recovered from all that now then? Had some drama at one point didn't you. Was that due to the PCT effect or all the herb you were puffing on? :lol:

Merry Christmas as well


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## Guest (Dec 25, 2009)

Ok well thats me done then this was exactly the reason i stopped posting on this board was due to little ****s like your self.


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

LittleChris said:


> You feeling recovered from all that now then? Had some drama at one point didn't you. Was that due to the PCT effect or all the herb you were puffing on? :lol:
> 
> Merry Christmas as well


can i ask what herb your referring to?? why not keep it on topic?


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## LittleChris (Jan 17, 2009)

My apologies.


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## Sylar (Sep 7, 2008)

LittleChris said:


> Con I was under the impression...


Then that's the impression you are under.

Every experience has a value, doesn't matter if it was a good experience or bad. They both make you stronger.

Con has allot of nice posts here, a good wealth of knowledge and is a decent guy.


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## All4n (May 30, 2008)

Uriel said:


> there is a very poor perception from anynone not "into" gear towards those who use. I would avoid any personal records containing this info. My Choice. My business.
> 
> If I want bloods done - I'll pay, it is then a service I have paid someone to do on my behalf and stays off the more public stuff. You'd be surprised where your medical records could end up


AAS is not on my medical file because i asked for blood tests to be taken. I had them taken at a private clinic but due to the results i was told to immediatly go to A+E to get more bloods taken. In hindsight i could have gotten away without mentioning AAS..but at the time the best decision was to be honest as the potential outcome of the situation was not known then. When your health is at risk you'd be stupid not to be honest imo. That in its self is putting your health at risk..so why would you even bother with the blood tests in the first place.



Pscarb said:


> yes they could but then diet when competing is alot cleaner than a disco BB's diet would you not agree??


I agree but also surely you must agree not all non competing BB's have such a lifestyle/diet? That was my comparison. Of course the lads on 5g a week of gear, 5g a week of coke and excessive alcohol consumption are a totally different matter. It's not even valid for this discussion regarding BBers because of the massive variables on affecting health negatively.



Con said:


> Originally Posted by All4n View Post
> 
> competing could make things worse if you think about it i.e extreme low levels of BF and more so if going down the diuretics et al route.
> 
> Explain to me the problems of being very lean. Sure diuretics are a problem but being very lean is no problem for the body especially the male body. Look at certain races and any top level athlete they are all very lean and this is not unhealthy in the least. I believe the problems occur from dieting down too quickly. I found it hard to function at a lean body weight but i had dropped 40lb in 14 weeks so its no surprise to me. The key is to stay as lean as possible year round.


There's a difference between lean and stage condiion ripped, i'm sure you of all people know this though. My reference was to stage condition bodyfat i,e extreme low levels. Being lean is not extreme, it's healthy i agree with you.



Con said:


> Ok well thats me done then this was exactly the reason i stopped posting on this board was due to little ****s like your self.


Why get upset? It was a little dig but you're getting upset because someone is challenging you and throwing you off your high horse.



Sylar said:


> Con has allot of nice posts here, a good wealth of knowledge and is a decent guy.


Just to add i still agree with this post.


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

All4n said:


> It's not even valid for this discussion regarding BBers because of the massive variables on affecting health negatively.


i agree but then i never brought it up :whistling:



All4n said:


> Why get upset? It was a little dig but you're getting upset because someone is challenging you and throwing you off your high horse.


to be fair it had no place on this thread a comment that was totally off topic to the one being discussed...


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## rs007 (May 28, 2007)

Havent read all 12 pages as am rather tipsy (can still touch type almost, so not too bad) but what are people defining as " cruise"?

To me cruise IS HRT levels of test, or thereabouts, and, logically, would be no more harmful than natty test levels, other than suppression of natty test...


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## Uriel (Oct 14, 2008)

Pscarb said:


> firstly i certainly do not see myself as a demi god or new comer so not sure what you would class me as??
> 
> As for anything other than "anecdotal waffle" can you tell me what you expected please mate?? maybe scientific studies on B&C??....these forums on the whole are all about Anecdotal Waffle as you so kindly put it, to be fair you have added your fair share of "anecdotal waffle"......
> 
> ...


Don't get hung up on it mate, it was mostly directed at con. He's a alright guy with plenty of experience but when he comes on with his mighty Con head, king of the universe referring to himself as an elite athlete but everyone with a viewpoint or experience level that doesn't meet his pedantic standards of posting - it just got on my t1ts a bit:thumbup1:

You actually have the best real life experience on the thread


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## Old but not out (Sep 8, 2009)

I have some useful studies on cruise doses and health but it's the holiday. I will dig them out later and post. There is obviously an infleunce related to genetics which can actually be identified with tests but a huge factor is body composition. Body fat influences your likelyhood to suffer from problems on cycle, cruise and trt doses.

Will try and post studies before day is out


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## All4n (May 30, 2008)

Pscarb said:


> i agree but then i never brought it up :whistling:
> 
> It seemed it was what was being refereanced at the time tho
> 
> to be fair it had no place on this thread a comment that was totally off topic to the one being discussed...


The comment was regarding the seemingly difficult time con went through during his PCT. Considering he was on for a year (or more?) it's relevent imo. Perhaps the take home story within that point is do not drop from high androgens/doses to PCT without any real form of cruise/taper. I think what's often not looked at in enough depth (or at all sometimes) by people blasting/cruising is the psychological effects. During and after if deciding to ever come off. Ones mental state should not be taken for granted and can be of course made worse by certain things :whistling:


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## hilly (Jan 19, 2008)

Altho i agree alin i do not think the occasional joint will make ones mental state worse IMHO. Having smoked week on and off for a while and at some point during pct it did not do anything negative to my mental state.

I also believe con taperd down. As far as i am ware having spoke with con at length regarding his pct because i will be going through something similar myself in may he did every1 one would recommend todo but still sufferd.

As for cons attitude yes he is very blunt but i think its part of his charm lmao or he may be spending to much time on american boards altho im falling victim to this myself as all these blast and cruise threads do get boring


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

All4n said:


> The comment was regarding the seemingly difficult time con went through during his PCT. Considering he was on for a year (or more?) it's relevent imo. Perhaps the take home story within that point is do not drop from high androgens/doses to PCT without any real form of cruise/taper. I think what's often not looked at in enough depth (or at all sometimes) by people blasting/cruising is the psychological effects. During and after if deciding to ever come off. Ones mental state should not be taken for granted and can be of course made worse by certain things :whistling:


not really mate as this thread is about B&C not if someone smokes an occasional joint. as Hilly has mentioned Con did Taper and to be fair was not on a huge amount any way i know as i coached him for a large part of this year on.....so the take home story is if you are going to say aomething about someone get your facts right :thumbup1:


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## big silver back (Jan 17, 2009)

Your all so agressive, i think most of you are on a blast now!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:

Only joking, i think what course someone uses b+c or pct, its a personal thing. As Paul said its all trial and error, you have to find out whats the best for you :thumb:


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

I dont think cons PCT went that bad, he recovered nicely and he did taper before the PCT.

He also did a huge dead lift so no loss in strength as far as I can see.


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## BigDom86 (Jul 27, 2008)

do you think a taper is always a sensible idea before a pct?


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

BigDom86 said:


> do you think a taper is always a sensible idea before a pct?


Depends on how long and how much one used.


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## BigDom86 (Jul 27, 2008)

say on a basic cycle 400-600mg test a week for 10-16 weeks. would a taper be sensible then? or do you think unnecessary?


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Nah, no need.

If you were on for a year at 600mg or higher then I would suggest a taper.


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## BigDom86 (Jul 27, 2008)

ok cheers. im going to make a separate thread anyway to see when people think a taper is necessary too  will be interesting to see, and your input scott


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## Sylar (Sep 7, 2008)

BigDom86 said:


> say on a basic cycle 400-600mg test a week for 10-16 weeks. would a taper be sensible then? or do you think unnecessary?


You don't need to taper that dose man if following up to PCT. If anything, I'd shoot a short acting Test ester like Prop EOD to keep androgens high and gains coming, as a bridge to PCT.

Absolutely no need to taper the Enan/Cyp ester when planning on PCT IMO - It will only hinder gains by lowering the dose at that point in the cycle and further suppress the HPTA for no positives in return.

At least with a short ester like Prop in the run up to PCT, Androgens are still kept high, gains are still coming when the longer ester is being naturally tapered off - Plus you're making the most of the dead time between last shot and PCT. You can shoot high amounts of Test EOD in between and still start PCT when planned.

But, if you were shooting a Gram+ Test Enan/Cyp p/w and going onto a cruise, I would taper down 250mg p/w in that case before finally reaching TRT dose. It seems to work best for me that way, but just need to find out what works best for you really.


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## hilly (Jan 19, 2008)

Now i normally dont like to disagree with sylar because he knows more than me.

However when i taperd down my dose from a total dose of test/eq of 900 mg to just 500mg test for 2 weeks then 250mg for 2 weeks i found i recoverd much better than the previouse pct i did when i didnt taper down.

the taper was by no way intentional i just wanted to stretch my gear out lol 2 years ago and bloods showed i recoverd test levels back into loew end of normal after 10 weeks. i had been on a total of 20. i was very pleased.

just throwing in my experience.


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## Sylar (Sep 7, 2008)

hilly said:


> Now i normally dont like to disagree with sylar because he knows more than me.
> 
> However when i taperd down my dose from a total dose of test/eq of 900 mg to just 500mg test for 2 weeks then 250mg for 2 weeks i found i recoverd much better than the previouse pct i did when i didnt taper down.


You know allot more than me on many things bud. Always enjoy reading your posts here.

But I suspect the reason you recovered better when tapering down is you did not give yourself enough clearance time in past PCT's when shooting high doses. People often underestimate esters/doses.

If AAS serum levels are high enough to exert a negative feedback on the HPTA, GnRH will not be sent to the pituitary by SERMS, without this, LH & FHS production cannot be fired up - Another reason why I like to run a short ester like Prop to PCT, you can judge with far greater accuracy when to commence PCT.

I've seen some pretty graphs on esters here recently, even noticed some crap about Test Undecanoate reaching peak and going back to base levels after 22 days not so long ago. - I guess that's why Doctor's administer it at 1000mg every 6 weeks in TRT patients... 

Doses/Esters make a massive difference when to commence PCT IME, starting PCT when AAS serum levels are too high is pointless, no benefit there. If you taper over weeks, levels will obviously be lower, but you are sacrificing gains and still suppressing the HPTA for nothing in return.

If you run Prop for 4 weeks etc in the lead up to PCT, Androgens are kept high, gains are still coming, plus you can also start PCT a few days after dropping it with no fear of GnRH suppression.


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## All4n (May 30, 2008)

hilly said:


> Altho i agree alin i do not think the occasional joint will make ones mental state worse IMHO. Having smoked week on and off for a while and at some point during pct it did not do anything negative to my mental state.


I don't disagree there mate, but there's a difference between an occasional joint and habitual smoking. I'm certainly not one to talk down to anyone about drugs by the way...preaching to the choir here.



Pscarb said:


> not really mate as this thread is about B&C not if someone smokes an occasional joint. as Hilly has mentioned Con did Taper and to be fair was not on a huge amount any way i know as i coached him for a large part of this year on.....so the take home story is if you are going to say aomething about someone get your facts right :thumbup1:


My referance (and chris' from my perception) was to the hard time Con had during pct not the occasional joint (see above for that point). With or without weed he had a hard time from what i read. Now i;'m going from personal experience here..if you're in a slightly bad way mentally then weed is going to make it a lot worse. So imo not the way forward during pct if psychologically you're suffering.

The reason i suggested con did not taper because it remember readin a post from Con himself who rejected the idea of crusing for a bit (effecively a form of or at least part of a taper is it not?) as he wanted to just get on with PCT, jump in there and get it over with. I'll try to find the post if you wish. Also i'll add i obviously do not know the full facts i'm just going off what has been posted. I'm not out to put anyone down, but just put my point across. I am not doing this with dishonesty.


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

All4n said:


> The reason i suggested con did not taper because it remember readin a post from Con himself who rejected the idea of crusing for a bit (effecively a form of or at least part of a taper is it not?) as he wanted to just get on with PCT, jump in there and get it over with. I'll try to find the post if you wish. Also i'll add i obviously do not know the full facts i'm just going off what has been posted. I'm not out to put anyone down, but just put my point across. I am not doing this with dishonesty.


Cruising and Tapering are a different thing mate.....with cruising you lower the dose then raise it, then lower it, then raise it....and on and on...

with tapering you lower the dose, then lower it again, then again, then stop all together


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## All4n (May 30, 2008)

Sure but with a sensible cruise is it not advised to taper down first? I mean going from 3g/week to 250mg/week isn't going to be the best idea surely?

Just because it's a cruise doesn;t mean you have to blast straight after. What if you drop down to 250mg for 8 week then decide to come off? Is that no longer a cruise? What's the terminology? Does it matter? No. Same sh1t really you just pct instead of blast. Not a bad idea imo and better off 3g/week taper down to 250mg then less if you like then come off. Rather than cold turkey it.


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

you seem to be fixated with the dose of 3g per week?? why....

if you drop from 3g to 250mg it is a cruise after a blast if you drop from 3g to 2g then to 1g then to 500mg followed by PCT it is a taper.......now this is my understanding you seem to have a different understanding now mine is from what i have done as i have done both and found them different are you saying when you *dropped *from 3g per week to 250mg it was the same as when you *tapered *down by say 1g increments?? i would be interested in your experiences so i can compare against mine


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## All4n (May 30, 2008)

3g/week is a just a random figure i pulled out of head in order to emphasise my point. I mean if blasting on 750mg test per week then i wouldn't be arguing the same point.

What i'm saying is that the terminology is not particularly important; as long as the purpose/point is explained. I'm saying that if one was on a high dose blast then it would be beneficial to taper down to a cruise dose rather that simply drop to said dose. Therefore i'm interlinking both cruise/taper methods. The difference being you either taper down to a low dose (at one point being same as cruise down no doubt, but i'm aware it may be dropped lower) come off/PCT *or* you taper down to your selected cruise dose. After this cruise period you don't have to blast which is what you're suggesting in the post because of the terminology used. Just because one is to "cruise" doesn't mean that they have to blast afterwards. That's my meaning behind using taper/cruise in a similar format.

Essentially i am saying that a taper can be utilised whether heading to a cruise dose, a PCT, or cruise then PCT. If being on for 12 months plus i would personally taper to a cruise then again consider another taper off, perhaps with a short acting ester such as prop. Similarily if blasting on anywhere above 2g/week (fcuk it lets say 3g/week  ) i would taper down the dose (until i'm left with nothing but cruise dose) rather than dropping straight to a cruise dose.


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

All4n said:


> 3g/week is a just a random figure i pulled out of head in order to emphasise my point. I mean if blasting on 750mg test per week then i wouldn't be *arguing* the same point.
> 
> What i'm saying is that the terminology is not particularly important; as long as the purpose/point is explained. I'm saying that if one was on a high dose blast then it would be beneficial to taper down to a cruise dose rather that simply drop to said dose. Therefore i'm interlinking both cruise/taper methods. The difference being you either taper down to a low dose (at one point being same as cruise down no doubt, but i'm aware it may be dropped lower) come off/PCT *or* you taper down to your selected cruise dose. After this cruise period you don't have to blast which is what you're suggesting in the post because of the terminology used. Just because one is to "cruise" doesn't mean that they have to blast afterwards. That's my meaning behind using taper/cruise in a similar format.
> 
> Essentially i am saying that a taper can be utilised whether heading to a cruise dose, a PCT, or cruise then PCT. If being on for 12 months plus i would personally taper to a cruise then again consider another taper off, perhaps with a short acting ester such as prop. Similarily if blasting on anywhere above 2g/week (fcuk it lets say 3g/week  ) i would taper down the dose (until i'm left with nothing but cruise dose) rather than dropping straight to a cruise dose.


i feel this comes down to one thing...we have different opinions i base mine on actual experience you base yours on assumptions (i am assuming this as you have not answered my question in my previous post about your experiences) you have plucked a figure out of the air randomly a figure that i know for fact is much higher than many blast on and from this figure you are basing your argument but in reality many do not need to taper into a cruise because they do not use this large amounts....

you could taper into a cruise but then you could taper up to a blast you could do alot of things but no one does......Tapering in essence helps the body adapt so recovery is easier in PCT when you are B&C you are not going to recover so it is not needed...you could do it but i do not see the need as it does not help with anything....


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## All4n (May 30, 2008)

My own experiences involve going from moderate dose then straight to cruise dose and then to a high dose tapered down to a cruise dose. Strength/gym performance is better this time around but diet has been different (higher cals) so it;'s not fair to directly compare.

The above is the experience i have regarding blast/cruise i do realise full well you are in a much more experienced position than my self, not once have i thought otherwise. It does not disqualify me from making a point though does it?

My whole point was not to suggest a taper should be incorporated into every cruise (i said that in the above post re 750mg test blast) but that it could be utilised effectively if blasting at higher doses. I do not believe i am the only one to think this either and i think it's logical. I like to think logically as that is what makes sense to me. Even if it may not be 100% correct at the time this is what i base my opinions on, when trying new things out or discussing a theory etc

"Tapering in essence helps the body adapt"

Yea which as you have mentioned can be used to help recovery. But on a similar note it helps your body adapt to an enviroment with less anabolic factors. An environment with a lot less androgens floating about. Thus to me, this suggests a sensbile approach into a cruise period. IF the dose is not that high then yes i agree the taper will be futile but some people do blast on high doses. Therefore, a taper would allow the body to adapt to the new environment i,e TRT style doses. If of course one cruise on such a dose, no doubt there's many out there that also "cruise" on highish doses of test. Personal choice of course. I do not agree with your suggesting it does not help with anything. If you've tried both methods and found no difference fair enough. But if i blast on a high dose i am going to personally feel a lot better tapering down first. This to me is my logical way of doing things but everyone has their own personal opinions/choices and i respect that.


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## eurgar (May 5, 2008)

This is my experience of blast and cruising for around 12 months ending beginning of October this year. Not saying it is right or wrong and did not really plan to do it this way it was just the way things fell into place with competitions (strongman) and other things.

So this is roughly how it worked out. Started mid October 2008 ran until end of December, I did intend to come off then I think I actually did take 1x tab of clomid :lol: , but had a few other things going on at the time and decided it was not the best time for me to run PCT. So I decided to cruise on 250mg test, did this until mid march when I started blast ran this for 9 weeks, was going to do longer but decided to do a comp in july and did not want to blast until then. Then I basically done 4 weeks cruise and 4weeks blast until end of august (done it this way because it worked out that I was ending blast at time of comp) I then cruised for 4 weeks when I came off.

Blast dosage were around 1200-1900mg test and tren mainly. Cruise 250mg test (did 1x 4 week at 500mg)

I did run HCG a couple of times throughout but nothing regular which is one thing I should of done, would of probably done so if it was not so hard to get hold of last summer.

I have now been off everything apart from GH for over 12 weeks bodyweight has not really changed although body fat is probably a little higher. Strength is down but tore a bicep in last comp (end of august) which has meant training has not been as good as it would of been since then. Apart from that I feel good have not felt a 'crash' like a lot of you guys say, libido is fine and everything works fine.

Now I know that I have not had bloods done and that that is only real way of knowing if I am recovered or not, I do intend to get done before going back on ( have PM'd Paul about this)

Would be interested to hear what the more experienced guys on here think about my experience.


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

i understand where your coming from but in my experiance it does not help......

could you do it...yes of course you could but then you could do a lot of things.....would it be safer ...maybe but the whole essence behind B&C is to go high then drop to a lower dose.....

i do not like B&C i did it for 32 weeks and not like like what it gave me yes the results where excellant i went from 206lbs to 232lbs in 32 weeks and at 5'5" and 20yrs in the game that is alot of beef but it did not feel right....then my health went a little downhill for a while so for me B&C is not worth it....


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## All4n (May 30, 2008)

Just to clarify paul i am in no way saying you are wrong at all. It's just my logic/opinions on a method of using AAS. Everyone should be course do what they feel best for themselves.

"maybe but the whole essence behind B&C is to go high then drop to a lower dose."

Nothing should be stuck to strictly just because that is what is done imo. As above everyone should use methods they feel works best for them based on thier own research and ultimately personal experience. I'm sure you do not disagree with this, but the statement above suggests sticking to something because that is the apparant/reported way to do it. When rather it should be the way you personally feel best for your self, your health, your goals etc. If that means modifying the traditional blast/cruise method then so be it imo, as long as the benefits are felt.


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

i agree with you but if you change the method behind B&C then you cannot compare it with others who have used B&C as it meant to be.....

i adapt everything i do once i have done it the way i have read about it so yes nothing should be stuck to strictly if you do not agree with the method but to be fair this thread was about B&C ie high dose then low dose then high dose......


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## hilly (Jan 19, 2008)

Sylar said:


> You know allot more than me on many things bud. Always enjoy reading your posts here.
> 
> But I suspect the reason you recovered better when tapering down is you did not give yourself enough clearance time in past PCT's when shooting high doses. People often underestimate esters/doses.
> 
> ...


great points mate i would rep ya but ure banned lol ill keep it in the bank for when ure back


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## hilly (Jan 19, 2008)

I believe aftershock tapers his dose down from a blast to cruise level as he finds he gets a little bit of a crash feeling when dropping straight down to a cruise dose.


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## Old but not out (Sep 8, 2009)

For those interested

The make up of your androgen receptor has an influence on wether or not long time testosterone dosage will have a negative effect on your health. Obesity and body fat levels are also related to health risks with AS

http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/reprint/92/10/3844


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## Mikazagreat (Apr 10, 2009)

Old but not out said:


> For those interested
> 
> The make up of your androgen receptor has an influence on wether or not long time testosterone dosage will have a negative effect on your health. Obesity and body fat levels are also related to health risks with AS
> 
> http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/reprint/92/10/3844


That's azz long study mate lol, i will schedule it for reading


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Old but not out said:


> For those interested
> 
> The make up of your androgen receptor has an influence on wether or not long time testosterone dosage will have a negative effect on your health. Obesity and body fat levels are also related to health risks with AS
> 
> http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/reprint/92/10/3844


Woh, that is a long read, bumping for later.


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## the beef (Jan 26, 2013)

would u still have to take an ai or tamox whilst cruising?

i know this is an old post but dont know hw to start a new thread?


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## benki11 (Sep 17, 2010)

Peter80 said:


> I blasted and cruised for 2 years. I am off now for 10+ months and i still dont feel myself most off the time and my T is still low end normal. If i could do it over i would not cruise and blast but cycle on and off its not worth it. Thats just my personal thought.


what is you test level now free of gear?


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## reza85 (Jan 11, 2009)

bump for later


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## Guest (Feb 5, 2013)

I am still in my initial blast phase, but decided that I was going to B&C simply because it's economically more viable for me too. Something not often talked about is the mathematics of it.

When I did all my sums, a B&C was less of a finiancial strain than cycling three times a year.

But since i've been on it, I am sure I could have been a candidate for TRT anyway, as I feel a different person since the test levels have risen. Only time will tell with that. I intend to taper right down from TRT dose to nothing inc HCG protocols before stopping THEN starting a PCT.

Longer you are on, the harder it is to start up again naturally. Like a car.


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## buffetslayer (Mar 29, 2012)

So for those that blast/cruise. Do you find each blast to be aa effective aa the last or to the results deminish with time?

Do you have to increase blast doses to gain simular results?

I'm coming to the end of a cycle and want to do another before summer so am considering bridging between but am wondering how this compares to cycle/pct/receptor clean out/ cycle school of thought. Seen some conflicting evidence lately so interested in your personal experiences


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## Htshsngh (Oct 5, 2016)

hackskii said:


> Bang on Mars........I totally agree.
> 
> But the longer you are on, the harder it may be to return to normal.
> 
> ...


 Hey man, sorry not trying to hack the post, I've read a lot about your power pct.. i do steroids on and off, my test levels don't tend to get back to normal range and I'm only 24, can you help me out where am I wrong with my pct ??


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