# Hard Gainers high and low responders and mTOR



## AChappell (Jun 1, 2011)

mTOR Gene expression is inhibited in high responders to resistance exercise.

At the symposium I attend today professor James Timmons delivered a talk on responders and non responders to exercise.

A few interesting points I think those in the fitness industry might find interesting:

A one size fits all model may not be the best approach for exercise prescription. A percentage of the population around 3% will actually have reduced fitness (VO2 Max) in response to an exercise regime. While around 10% may see no notable improvements at all. insulin resistance following exercise in around 15% of individuals based on oral glucose tolerance will actually get worse.

Traditional physiological markers such as VO2max, max HR, resting HR, RER, BMI, blood glucose etc. Are all poor predictors of adaptation to exercise. I.e just because someone had a high or low VO2max didn't mean they would be a high or low responder to an exercise program.

Most of this sort of Data is available if you look at the HERITAGE study Timmons et al. 2010 JAP.

Another interesting finding was that in individuals who responded best to resistance exercise gaining the most lean muscle mass, also had a large induction in MTOR activating genes. While non responders had the opposite response with an up regulation in MTOR genes despite poor gains in lean muscle mass. See graph above. The complete opposite to what you might expect.

Timmons himself didn't want to speculate on this so I'm not going to either but an interesting result non the less.


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## Tom84 (Dec 12, 2005)

insulin resistance following exercise in around 15% of individuals based on oral glucose tolerance will actually get worse.

That's actually amazing in the face of the rationale we use for high GI PWO, which albeit I haven't done for a long time.


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## Tom84 (Dec 12, 2005)

Worth a read on IR for anyone (wiki is getting much better these days)

Insulin resistance - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## justheretosnoop (Jun 15, 2012)

Parky said:


> insulin resistance following exercise in around 15% of individuals based on oral glucose tolerance will actually get worse.
> 
> That's actually amazing in the face of the rationale we use for high GI PWO, which albeit I haven't done for a long time.


Git, I was about to make my first clever comment ever and you've beat me to it!!


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## gdickdas (Jun 12, 2013)

I know a bit about IR... Would this be a good time to volunteer as a test dummy?


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## AChappell (Jun 1, 2011)

Parky said:


> insulin resistance following exercise in around 15% of individuals based on oral glucose tolerance will actually get worse.
> 
> That's actually amazing in the face of the rationale we use for high GI PWO, which albeit I haven't done for a long time.


 Timmons made the point of showing several research papers un adjusted for the noise showing the variation. How this sort of research applies to the trained population I couldn't say. Generally speaking anyone who tends to get bitten by the fitness bug or plays sport to any sort of level are likely to be a high responder.


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## AChappell (Jun 1, 2011)

What do you intend to volunteer for gdickdas?


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## Tom84 (Dec 12, 2005)

AChappell said:


> Timmons made the point of showing several research papers un adjusted for the noise showing the variation. How this sort of research applies to the trained population I couldn't say. Generally speaking anyone who tends to get bitten by the fitness bug or plays sport to any sort of level are likely to be a high responder.


Actually that was a glaring omission on my part. I processed 'post exercise' as trained individuals. Of course the data could show the spread across the average population, in which case I'm not as surprised. I'd expect 1/7 people to be insulin resistant to some degree, although not to that extent granted. Did he elaborate on what he thinks is the cause of that? I don't understand what the mechanism would be to increase insulin resistance, surely depleted glucose has to make cells more receptive? Though I admit I don't understand what modifies surface receptors. Anyway as an aside, one thing I would love to test/see the results of is the insulin sensitivity effects of consuming artificially sweetened products in large quantities.


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## yannyboy (Jun 20, 2009)

Great thread!


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## wezo1466868035 (Oct 11, 2012)

Great read, insulin usage is becoming more and more common in gyms .6iu 30 mins before training , with 60 g of fast carbs to sip while you train , then fast carbs post wo , but how on earth would you know how your body will react .

Insulin resistant cells can't take in glucose for health reason , wonder how many people who take insulin know this.

But taking insulin with fast carbs would that not improve something wich was lacking...


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## AChappell (Jun 1, 2011)

Parky said:


> Actually that was a glaring omission on my part. I processed 'post exercise' as trained individuals. Of course the data could show the spread across the average population, in which case I'm not as surprised. I'd expect 1/7 people to be insulin resistant to some degree, although not to that extent granted. Did he elaborate on what he thinks is the cause of that? I don't understand what the mechanism would be to increase insulin resistance, surely depleted glucose has to make cells more receptive? Though I admit I don't understand what modifies surface receptors. Anyway as an aside, one thing I would love to test/see the results of is the insulin sensitivity effects of consuming artificially sweetened products in large quantities.


I actually posted results of a paper about this recently Parky.

Here's what I wrote

Sucrose Sweetened Soft Drinks

I was shocked to come across a statistic recently reporting the soft drink intake among young Americans was on average around 1.8L per day and 0.5L per day across the population. High consumption of energy dense nutrient poor beverages can result in several diseases associated with the metabolic syndrome: obesity, cardiovascular disease, diabetes etc.

A study conducted at Arne Astrup's lab compared the effects of sucrose sweetened soft drinks to milk, a diet soft drink, and water over 6 months in 50+ subjects.

Researchers found a significant reduction in eptopic fat, systemic fat, blood pressure, cholesterol and triglycerides in the diet, milk and water groups compared to controls.

Milk, diet drinks and water were considered better alternatives to sucrose sweetened soft drinks. Although researchers conceded that more research was needed to evaluate the health effects of aspartame-sweetened diet drinks.

Am J Clin Nutr 2012 vol. 95 no. 2 283-289

I've always really considered fizzy drinks like cola, or lemonade as pointless calories. If your struggling to lose weight take a look at your fizzy drink intake and make the switch to diet alternatives instead.


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## gingernut (Dec 11, 2006)

AChappell said:


> I actually posted results of a paper about this recently Parky.
> 
> Here's what I wrote
> 
> ...


and of course fruit juice too. So many people think because it's 'fruit' it's 'healthy' so therefore ok..................well yes but you could be eating something more filling, or losing those kcals without much effort.


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## Tom84 (Dec 12, 2005)

AChappell said:


> I actually posted results of a paper about this recently Parky.
> 
> Here's what I wrote
> 
> ...


Sorry by artificially sweetened I meant sucLAlose or aspartame, stevia etc... obviously sugar/sucrose sweetened drinks are horrific.

What I'd like to see is if the cephalad phase of insulin release is actually visible as a response to sweetened products. i.e. Do Artificial Sweeteners Cause an Insulin Spike? | Mark's Daily Apple and what the long term effects of that are on surface receptors.


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## Tom84 (Dec 12, 2005)

lancashirerose said:


> and of course fruit juice too. So many people think because it's 'fruit' it's 'healthy' so therefore ok..................well yes but you could be eating something more filling, or losing those kcals without much effort.


I'm also very vocally against fruit period. It's insulinotopic effects are misunderstood IMO, because of the way fructose affects the signalling mechanisms of the liver. Fruit itself doesn't have a high GI or II, but it has the potential to cause a reaction analagous to raising the GI of all other carbs consumed.


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## AChappell (Jun 1, 2011)

The diet sweetened soft drink was aspartame based and was found to have a similar effect on blood glucose as water Parky.


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## Tom84 (Dec 12, 2005)

Thanks Andy.


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## AChappell (Jun 1, 2011)

There seems to be some confusion in the literature from what I've regarding Fructose, some say it spikes insulin others say it doesn't. I've not read enough about it to really offer anything definitive to the debate though.

Look into epigenetics and euglyceamic memory if you like this sort of thing Parky.


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## Tom84 (Dec 12, 2005)

AChappell said:


> There seems to be some confusion in the literature from what I've regarding Fructose, some say it spikes insulin others say it doesn't. I've not read enough about it to really offer anything definitive to the debate though.
> 
> Look into epigenetics and euglyceamic memory if you like this sort of thing Parky.


I don't think it spikes insulin in and of itself, not in any pronounced way anyway. I think because of the way the liver uses fructose as a preferential glycogen source, and that the performs a signalling/regulatory function for glycogen levels, high fructose levels cause an under channelling of glycogen to muscle cells. This is why I'm always totally bemused as to why people use fruit as a post workout. But I've read good arguments against my position. I'll definitely have a read, although as I'm somewhat hungover I'll avoid for today.


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## AChappell (Jun 1, 2011)

Wait until you've got your head screwed on properly ha. I thought it was the same as you no effect on insulin. Glycogen is likely to be transported as glucose, but muscle cells lack the ability to export glucose. So any transfer of glycogen or glucose would have to be transported from the liver, while the fructose is stored within the liver.


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