# One for the diet gurus,help urgently needed!!!!!!!!!!!



## Rossy Balboa (Nov 6, 2008)

Hello,I need some advice regarding my diet.

I eat a low carb diet,primarily having carbs just before and after a workout. Do I need to carb up at some point?I havent been as I have my cheat from around 5-6pm on a sat for a good few hours which consists of carbs and crap basically. Just wondering if I should maybe be eating clean carbs throughout a day or so? Also should I be classing my veg as carbs? as I eat these quite late sometimes.

Cheers, Reps for grabs!!!


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## Rossy Balboa (Nov 6, 2008)

Bump


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## The Ultimate Warrior (Dec 20, 2010)

Whats the goals?

Depends how much veg your having, some veg is lower than others.

Can you give a little more detail?


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## SisterPsychosis (Dec 27, 2010)

Rossy Balboa said:


> Hello,I need some advice regarding my diet.
> 
> I eat a low carb diet,primarily having carbs just before and after a workout. Do I need to carb up at some point?I havent been as I have my cheat from around 5-6pm on a sat for a good few hours which consists of carbs and crap basically. Just wondering if I should maybe be eating clean carbs throughout a day or so? Also should I be classing my veg as carbs? as I eat these quite late sometimes.
> 
> Cheers, Reps for grabs!!!


AFAIC 'clean carbs' is an oxymoron. I know my banging on about low-carb will probably get me banned eventually, but I really do believe it's the only way to eat, whatever you do (and I've seen BBers put on serious gains on low-carb diets. Martin Berkhan is one - read his Lean Gains blog.).

Carbs are crud and I ain't gonna eat no crud!


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## Tinytom (Sep 16, 2005)

If I was low carbing I would have carbs at breakfast and carbs PWO as those would be the times when its most likely that it would go primarily to glycogen replenishment.

In response to the 'low carb is the only way to go' thats a very subjective view as low for one person is high for another. I think that eating super amounts of carbs is not warranted but everyone is different. More bbers get big off eating sh*tloads than watching carb intake. Thats a factual statement if you look at the majority of big pro bbers.

Although I would say that more guys are wising up to keeping lean off season for many reasons.


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

SisterPsychosis said:


> AFAIC 'clean carbs' is an oxymoron. I know my banging on about low-carb will probably get me banned eventually, but I really do believe it's the only way to eat, whatever you do (and I've seen BBers put on serious gains on low-carb diets. Martin Berkhan is one - read his Lean Gains blog.).
> 
> Carbs are crud and I ain't gonna eat no crud!


It will not get you banned but then this is certainly not the only way to go, people will just dismiss your views if you keep banging the same drum....yes this works for some more than others, my off season has 400g of carbs and 130g fat on training days this carb amount is high for me but low for others......

In my experience you cannot build as much muscle on a low carb (>100g) high fat diet as you can on a moderate carb and fat diet.....

There certainly is many ways to build muscle and diet, one of my close mates does not do cardio eats 700g carbs per day and over 100g of fats per day as he diets for a show....last year he came 5th at the Britain........yet when I diet my carb amounts when running in to a show are under 75g we both get in great condition......

To the OP don't count the carbs in veg, as they are fibrous how many carbs you eat all depends on your goals and your metabolism.....


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## Rossy Balboa (Nov 6, 2008)

Cheers for the input lads...reps!

Certainly mate...the veg i eat is usually just mixed veg (brocoli,green beans,carrots,sometimes peas and cauliflower too)

My goals are to lean up....fat loss and increase muscle.Im starting a cycle next week too of test and var.

So would you suggest movin my pre work out carbs back to brekkie time?I was doing it this way but have recently changed to pre and post!I have to say I do feel like I can train better having carbs pre and post workout but i'll do whatever will hinder better results.


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## The Ultimate Warrior (Dec 20, 2010)

Don't bother counting the veg then, not a concern.

I would much prefer and always advise morning carbs and post workout carbs if wanting to cut carbs dramatically.

Although, how many carbs a day are you having?


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## Rossy Balboa (Nov 6, 2008)

I'll change back to brekkie and post workout in that case then.

Very little mate...I am only having either an egg sandwich (3 eggs,2 slices wholemeal bread) or mackerel and 35g brown rice pre workout,then half a scoop of dextrose in my shake post workout.

Other meals just consist of eggs,evoo,chicken,veg,whey,omega 3,cashew nuts


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## The Ultimate Warrior (Dec 20, 2010)

Ok thats cool, yeah do the morning and post workout if ya can mate.

How ya finding the whole low carb thing? How long you been doing/doing it for?


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## Rossy Balboa (Nov 6, 2008)

Finding it good mate...dont feel like I really need the carbs anymore but my progress has slowed somewhat I feel....could just be me though.

Do you think I should be carbing up at some point?I cheat from bout 5-6pm on a sat til I go to bed....which usually will have carbs.


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## The Ultimate Warrior (Dec 20, 2010)

Rossy Balboa said:


> Finding it good mate...dont feel like I really need the carbs anymore but my progress has slowed somewhat I feel....could just be me though.
> 
> Do you think I should be carbing up at some point?I cheat from bout 5-6pm on a sat til I go to bed....which usually will have carbs.


If fat losss has slowed then yes, I would implement a good carb up, starting with sugar and junk first and get cleaner and cleaner as you go. If your wanting to build muscle like this, then definatly either have a day where you carb up, or a full weekend.

Its important to add in carb ups if your wanting to gain some muscle aswell.


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## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

In reality it doesn't make a vast difference whether you have you carbs pre and post workout, or morning and post. Personally I'd rather have them sandwiched around training as that's when your gonna make the most of them.

If fat loss progress has slowed it's probably a case of too many cals, or you metabolism has slowed due to dieting, so this is when refeeds come into play. Timing of nutrients is massively secondary to hitting you cal and macro targets for any given day.


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## Rossy Balboa (Nov 6, 2008)

Excellent mate...so,firstly just carb up on a sat and see how it goes,if progress stalls again...extend carbs to a sunday aswell?

Aye mate I want to still add muscle whilst losing fat...not very clued up with this refeeding business ha,cheers


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## Rossy Balboa (Nov 6, 2008)

bayman said:


> In reality it doesn't make a vast difference whether you have you carbs pre and post workout, or morning and post. Personally I'd rather have them sandwiched around training as that's when your gonna make the most of them.
> 
> If fat loss progress has slowed it's probably a case of too many cals, or you metabolism has slowed due to dieting, so this is when refeeds come into play. Timing of nutrients is massively secondary to hitting you cal and macro targets for any given day.


Excellent advice mate...cheers,reps!So how long would you say necessary for a carb up?Im not really carbing up apart from my cheat on a sat which will usually just be crap food....


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## Tinytom (Sep 16, 2005)

carbs before workout wont affect the workout unless its dextrose/vitargo etc.

If fat loss is your goal then PreWO carbs are not advisable as they will trigger off an insulin release and fat will not be burnt when insulin is raised. Better to have Post workout.


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## martin brown (Dec 31, 2008)

To the guys who suggest carbs in morning - any reason?

I find carbs pre workout make a big difference to my workouts. A mix of small amount of fast acting andsomerhing longer chain has worked well for me.

On a low carb diet I would stick with carbs pre and post only assuming you don't train early am.


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## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

Rossy Balboa said:


> Excellent mate...so,firstly just carb up on a sat and see how it goes,if progress stalls again...extend carbs to a sunday aswell?
> 
> Aye mate I want to still add muscle whilst losing fat...not very clued up with this refeeding business ha,cheers


Mate, get away from the thinking that you can lose fat and gain muscle at the same time, it's next to impossible as a natural, and would involve complex diet set up if assissted.

The best you can hope for is maintenance of what you have currently (strength and muscle wise) and losing fat whilst doing so, getting leaner will give the impression of you looking bigger anyway.

Of course this assumes you're not a complete beginner, they're probably the only group of people who can successfully lose fat and gain muscle at the same time due to not being used to the stimulus of weight training.


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## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

Tinytom said:


> carbs before workout wont affect the workout unless its dextrose/vitargo etc.
> 
> If fat loss is your goal then PreWO carbs are not advisable as they will trigger off an insulin release and fat will not be burnt when insulin is raised. Better to have Post workout.


Tom, no disrespect, but that's short sighted in the extreme. Yes carbs will raise insulin, which does inhibit fat burning to some degree, but if the OP is in a calorie deficit he'll still lose fat over the course of 24hrs and that's without factoring in things like EPOC from doing the weight session itself.

IMO, if you're cycling carbs, best to have them pre and post. Pre to fuel the sesssion, and post as insulin sensitivity will be raised and more will be shuttled towards glycogen replenishment and muscle growth.


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

Bayman yes as you have pointed out over the 24hrs the fat loss will occur but fatloss would be more if Pre-WO carbs are not used as then you would not have the fuel from these carbs to train with? plus carbs post workout will effect EPOC to some degree as carbs will effect fat burning...

guys there is no one way to do things......i have dieted for shows with No PreWO carbs and got stage ready, I have used carb PWO and got stage ready, i have also used carbs for breakfast and been stage ready......


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## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

Paul, I'm not sure the fatloss would be more if the calories are identical?

You'd still burn the same amount of energy in the session, you'd still have taken the energy on board from the carbs either that morning or after the session. In fact you could argue his session may be less productive without carbs pre-WO?

Small details like this may have an effect if you're looking to get down to 5%, but overall it's the calorie deficit that's important, as you pointed out yourself.


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## Tinytom (Sep 16, 2005)

bayman said:


> Tom, no disrespect, but that's short sighted in the extreme. Yes carbs will raise insulin, which does inhibit fat burning to some degree, but if the OP is in a calorie deficit he'll still lose fat over the course of 24hrs and that's without factoring in things like EPOC from doing the weight session itself.
> 
> IMO, if you're cycling carbs, best to have them pre and post. Pre to fuel the sesssion, and post as insulin sensitivity will be raised and more will be shuttled towards glycogen replenishment and muscle growth.


your entitled to your opinion but Ive used both methods and found better fat loss from no carbs pre workout.

Plus dieted loads of guys using the same method and they all looked good.

Theres not one way to do things and I was only offering my opinion based on my experience so dont think its short sighted at all.


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## Tinytom (Sep 16, 2005)

bayman said:


> *Mate, get away from the thinking that you can lose fat and gain muscle at the same time, it's next to impossible as a natural, and would involve complex diet set up if assissted.*
> 
> *
> *
> ...


If you look at my article on losing fat and gaining muscle it is possible and naturals have followed it and been successful. not impossible but difficult unless planned out properly.


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

bayman said:


> Paul, I'm not sure the fatloss would be more if the calories are identical?
> 
> You'd still burn the same amount of energy in the session, you'd still have taken the energy on board from the carbs either that morning or after the session. In fact you could argue his session may be less productive without carbs pre-WO?
> 
> Small details like this may have an effect if you're looking to get down to 5%, but overall it's the calorie deficit that's important, as you pointed out yourself.


you would think that would be the case...equal calories same fatloss but in reality that is not the case for most....

calories deficit is importnat but then timing of the carbs is also important as they can and do blunt potential fatloss from exercise and cardio if this was not true then everyone would be fine eating a big carb meal then doing there morning cardio.....

there is no such thing as "Do it this way and the end result is this" as metabolism comes into play.....some can eat more carbs than others at different times yet drop fat.....this is not to say your opinion is wrong but then it is not exactly correct when you apply to individuals and influences outside of diet....(this applies to everyone's opinion)


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## martin brown (Dec 31, 2008)

Pscarb said:


> you would think that would be the case...equal calories same fatloss but in reality that is not the case for most....
> 
> calories deficit is importnat but then timing of the carbs is also important as they can and do blunt potential fatloss from exercise and cardio if this was not true then everyone would be fine eating a big carb meal then doing there morning cardio.....


I agree. Yet I'd argue that having CHO in a morning - when fat burning is high (post fast) and cortisol is highest (post sleep) is counter productive. Due to the negative effects of high insulin and cortisol, and also the fat burning being blunted by raised insulin levels.

I'd much rather have the same amount of carbs 0-60mins pre workout to limit muscle breakdown and increase workout productivity than eat them at breakfast.

As you said - there are many ways get there and often the most easy to stick to for an individual works best. As a strength athlete I need energy whilst training so when I cut bodyfat training times is where I eat my carbs.


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## Rossy Balboa (Nov 6, 2008)

Thanks for all the input lads...much appreciated.Bit confused of where to go from here though lol.If it makes a difference my pre wo carbs are just over 2 hours before I train,is this pointless including carbs in this meal?

I dont know what to do lol....


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## Rossy Balboa (Nov 6, 2008)

Oh btw....regarding the natural comment,i'm starting a test and var cycle next week.


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

it certainly is not pointless...what you have to evaluate is what results are you getting from the way you are doing it? if you are not getting results then make changes if you are then remain the same...


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## Rossy Balboa (Nov 6, 2008)

Pscarb said:


> it certainly is not pointless...what you have to evaluate is what results are you getting from the way you are doing it? if you are not getting results then make changes if you are then remain the same...


Cheers mate...I feel as if my results have stalled or possibly just slowed right down so I might try and mix it up in that case.

Would you say refeed on a sat?or a whole weekend?I havent been refeeding and may have slowed my metabolism down somewhat.

Reps.....


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

i would stick with one day for a refeed make it a full day thing but don't just eat crap make sure you are getting in a high amount of carbs in from both fast and slow sources...


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## Rossy Balboa (Nov 6, 2008)

Pscarb said:


> i would stick with one day for a refeed make it a full day thing but don't just eat crap make sure you are getting in a high amount of carbs in from both fast and slow sources...


Spot on mate....very much appreciated!

So vary the carbs from things like sweet potato to bananas?get a good variety in other words?


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

yes mate but also have some crap and sweet things this way it will help prevent you from cheating in the week....don't count anything either and lower both protein and fats on this day....your goal is carbs....


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## Rossy Balboa (Nov 6, 2008)

Pscarb said:


> yes mate but also have some crap and sweet things this way it will help prevent you from cheating in the week....don't count anything either and lower both protein and fats on this day....your goal is carbs....


Excellent advice mate...helped me out loads,very much appreciated!reps again to you pal...when i can.

Thanks again


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## Tinytom (Sep 16, 2005)

regarding cortisol levels

if you have 500mg phosphatidylserine upon waking with some glutamine then this will go a long way to blunting cortisol. Theres a proven link between PS supplementation and anti stress (cortisol)

Used to be a supplement called Cort Bloc by Tropicana but its been discontinued I think the only place to get it at any reasonable price is MP.


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