# Glycogen storage



## Delhi (Dec 8, 2005)

Hi All,

Been a while since I posted a research question so though I would do one to get some open discussion going on what makes us grow.

I have always believed that science has the answer to all of our BBing needs and as such the development of muscle is not 'Luck' or even genetics but rather a combination of the right training, diet, hormones and and processes.

Now while we dont fully understand the science as yet, we are all in some way contributing to the knowledge pool either *activley* (Via research, development, analysis) or *passivley* (Trial and error, experience etc).

Now I am not aligned to either group exclusivley but I would say I am more aligned to the 'Active' group rasther than the passive.

Latley I have been looking into insulin use again and why it seems to work for some peopel well and makes others apparently fat.

Now the simple answer is the individulas diet (Particulary consumption of carbs) is the main factor in who gets fat or who does not, but upon further examination one will realise that it has more to do with an individuals glycogen storage capacity rather than amount and type of carbs consumed.

What I mean is two identical BBers could eat the same foods, train the same and take the same amount of slin (And other stuff), but one may get fat while the other does not.

Why would this happen if both BBers were identical?

It surley (In part) has to do with the glycogen level?

As you may know, when we eat carbs tehy are tranformed to blood sugars and through various mechanisms (Such as insulin secretion) these blood sugars are stored in our muscle as glycogen.

If we fill up our glycogen stores then we will 'Spill' over and the liver will process the excess blood sugars (Carbs) into EFAs which in turn are then stored as fat.

I also recognise that the individuals metabolism will have a influence here but I want to research only glycogen for now.

Now assuming we could measure our glycogen levels we could then as bodybuilders better prescribe ourselves individual diets to cater for our unique glycogen storage capacity.

And when we consider the use of slin to control high levels of blood sugars in the body and what we as BBers might use it for. Knowing when our glycogen stores are full would mean we could effectivley lower (Or increase) or insulin usage to suit or individual needs and massivley reduce the risk of hypo etc (a more effective glyocomenter if you like).

So the question / challenge is this;

Other than taking a muscle biopsy do we know of any effective method to measure our glycogen stores?

If not can we as a community investage possible ways to measure it (Via heart rate, temp, endurance or something)?

It seems to me that getting an answer to this question would open up a whole new world of development in our field and could transform us to the 'Next level'

Like I said at the start of thread "Open discussion" where the thread goes will depend on responces.


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## Delhi (Dec 8, 2005)

In addition, if we could somehow increase our storage capacity, we would have more muscle size and endurance.


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

Is a good question and I think you are onto something - the main issue with carbs and their conversion to bodyfat is indeed related to glycogen levels. If you eat carbs when your glycogen levels are low then they will be used to replenish the glycogen and you won't get fat. If however you continue to eat carbs when your liver and muscluar glycogen stores are full, and are eating more than you need to meet your energy expenditure at the time then where else can the carbs possibly go other than stored as bodyfat? The body has to shunt the carbs away to prevent hyperglycemia and if all normal carbohydrate stores are full, storage as bodyfat is the only option.

This is why I think carb cycling diets are the best way to eat - focusing use of carbs around exercise and activity so you are always using them either to replenish glycogen or for fuel during activity but not using them much when glycogen stores are full or you are at rest.


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## Van (May 22, 2009)

This is the most interesting thread I have read in a long time, I think logically this is more than feasible and we all need to put some research in to see if we can find anything, there will be a way to measure glycogen storage without dissecting the muscle, I cant imagine its going to be simple though, im going to do some research on this and ill jump back in if i find anything.

Reps Delhi


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## Prodiver (Nov 14, 2008)

I've observed that once your body becomes used to getting limited carbs, it uses your fat stores very efficiently, and it takes less than 2 days for fat deposition or remobilization to occur, so subcutaneous fat levels are a very good indicator.

At present, eating slight excess protein calculated by body weight is the only way to ensure we get enough protein. Any excess will be used as energy and this can be balanced by carb control, but it's expensive and would be better avoided if possible.

Once protein starts to be turned into glycogen certain protein metabolites appear in the urine, and test sticks are available to detect them. I've yet to try them but suggest this would be a better way to achieve optimum protein intake.

As far as increasing the glycogen uptake of muscle, this is surely dependent on insulin, which serious bodybuilders already use. In conjunction with the latest finger-pr**k measuring devices an optimum safe insulin intake ought to be easily possible.


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## Delhi (Dec 8, 2005)

Uptake of glycogen is regulated by insulin yes, but usiong glycogen meters will only tell you how much BS you have. It wont tell you how full your muscle glycogen stores are (Which is the critical component here).

BS levels are only part of teh picture here (Possibly less), surley the amount of glycogen we can store is more influential?

Lets face it your body seems to know when your glycogen stores are full (Thats why the liver starts to synthesise the BS into EFAs). What hormone.process triggers the liver to do this?

If we knew that we could have a scientific way of monitoring our glycogen stores and that is WAY more beneficial than knowing BS levels IMO.

Maybe this thread is the start of something BIG LOL


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## hilly (Jan 19, 2008)

it would be very useful, however how much it differs from person to person is debatable i think and we may never know.

Anothet thing delhi is have you had or no of 2 people who have done everything identical diet/training/slin/gear/lifestyle etc to test this theory.

As DTLV and pro said its the excess carbs that will make one fat but i also think it may have something to do with ones insulin sensitivity. the more sensitivw we are the bigger the insulin spike is going to make. this also means from what i have read that each persons peak when injecting slin may be different.

the effect of this is that most people will follow the low fat rule(altho again this is debatable) for 3-4 hours. for some who are more slin sensitive this period may need to be extended. for those less slin sensitive they may be able to take in more carbs without getting as fat.

Its a funny subject on which i have tried to read alot about. I do think you are onto something tho if we new exactly how many carbs we needed to replenish glycogen levels ate so we could stop ourselves spilling over it would be a big advantage.


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## maxjenics (Mar 2, 2005)

Delhi said:


> In addition, if we could somehow increase our storage capacity, we would have more muscle size and endurance.


There are drugs that increases muscle glycogen storage capacity....they are called steroids 

In my view glycogen storage capacities and the enzymes that influence them are such transient elements (i.e. they can change within minutes within the body), that trying to analyse when our muscle are 'full' would be nigh on impossible, other than doing muscle biopsies every few minutes (and after an hour or two we'd have needled so much away that there'd be no muscle left in many cases!!!).

Best thing to do is only eat the majority of your carbs when your body requires them such as at breakfast, and immediately post workout (weight sor cardio). This maximises insulin sensitivity to a point where maximal glycogen uptake (by visible assessment) is very controllable, as long as bodyfat levels are low enough to assess it (via fullness of muscle and vascularity).

The ones of us on here that have competed a few times will know that after a show, we can frigg about with our carbs nearly subconciously to influence our muscle fullness while we are lean and all our carb processing enzymes are at their maximum.

Just my 2 pennies worth.


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

Good post maxjenics. The best natural way to increase glycogen storage is through super carb feedings post workout. The GLUT4 transporters are all active and buzzing around the cell membranes at this point and this allows the maximum potential to store glycogen - and in this condition high levels of high GI carbohydrate can cause super compensation of glycogen stores and for you to end up storing more than you would under normal eating/more gradual glycogen replenishment.

Another way I suppose would be through training with higher volume, to a good pump and well into the lactate threshold as this increases vascularisation of the muscle and so increases the blood supply improving glycogen delivery. The increased ability the body gains to buffer lactate through this kind of training also allows for an increase in local muscular glycogen storage (although it doesn't, I don't think, improve levels of glycogen that the liver can store)


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## HJL (Apr 26, 2009)

If i ate say 1000g of carbs in one day, is there any way fo telling how much of this would be stored as glycogen, how much would be stored as fat ect?

jst out of interest, how long does it take for cabs to be turned in to glycogen?

also, is glycogenmuscle storage, the only place that the body takes from, to utilise carbohydrates?

very interesting though, i supose someone with lots of carb cycling exxperince may know alot, as surly thats got loads to do with having the right amount at the right time?


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