# Carb Cycling...PScarb.....TinyTom....



## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Although I dont do this myself.

Can you guys give me an idea of what you do in regards to carb cycling for pre-contest diets?

What I am looking for is help with the numbers (I know we all are not the same), but just a general idea of how you guys do the carb cycling to get into the single digit body fat %.


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## the_gre8t_1ne (Apr 18, 2005)

Im so with u scott! i h8 double digits, wouldn't mind a 10 tho


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

WOW, I just posted that

It is really for another member that I thought this would be the best approach.

I am not going to compete myself, well maybe against winger, but carb cycling is good for the guy that wants to be his leanest for a specific event.

Really low bodyfat is not that healthy (that is what I always tell myself to feel better), no seriously tho.


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## the_gre8t_1ne (Apr 18, 2005)

I just wanna drop bodyfat, i would be happy with 10% and some abs! I dont wanna steal the thread, but u think 50grams of protein and 40carbs are enough to drop bodyfat or build lean mass, I would say rite now im on about 2500 to 3000 cals


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

50 grams of protein a day?.....Too low.

This is not dieting, I think it is more like Body Opus. I have that book and never read it. I need to do that.


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## Tinytom (Sep 16, 2005)

I'll have a better look tomorrow as I'm off training now but maybe this will help in the time being.

See this link from when I was dieting.

http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/showthread.php?t=9888&page=2

I generally have around 300 grams protein on a low carb day and 200 on a high carb day.

Total carbs on low days are usually no more than 75-100

High days are as much as i want.

I also incorporate a higher carb meal mid week to push up thyroid levels.


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## the_gre8t_1ne (Apr 18, 2005)

sorry i ment per meal, my bad! hehe


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

the following is the way i carb cycled the last time i competed...

i had a 7 day turnaround

Sunday = low day

Monday = low day

Tuesday = Medium day

Wednesday = High day

Thursday = low day

Friday = low day

Saterday = Refeed day

Low day = 0g carbs-300g Prot-75g Fats

Med day = 60g carbs-300g Prot-75g Fats

High day = 150g carbs-250g Prot-50g Fats

Refeed day = 500-700g carbs-200g Prot-25g Fats

from 4 weeks out my refeed days where clean i just used Oats and sweet spuds as my carb sources up to this point i would eat 700g of clean carbs along with some crap food...

in general i would gain 7-9lbs overnight after my refeed but by the tuesday i was in better condition than before the refeed and my weight was back down by 7-9lbs.

so the rest of the week i dropped the 1-2lbs i planned to.

when i get into the last 2-3 weeks i might do a refeed day more frequently because of my metabolism running overtime.

you have to do a little trial and error when using carb cycling as one size does not fit all.

i think tom can eat more carbs on his low and high days and still lose fat but i need to really drop mine.


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## Carnivore (Apr 7, 2004)

pscarb, when your at the end of your 2-3 day low carb days, before you begin to add carbs back in, days 3-4, do you still manage a good morning cardio sessions?


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

yes mate when dieting i always do my morning cardio.

i up this to 2 sessions per day at 4-6 weeks out


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Oh, thanks alot guys, I appreciate that.

They were talking yesterday about sweet potato's on the radio yesterday, seems that they are one of the highest of all veges on Beta Caratene and one of the best vegetables around 9nutritional value).

I never really liked them but after all the talk (thanksgiving) about Yams and such I have given these more notice.

Nutrient Units 1 cup, cubes

-------

133 g

Proximates

Water g 96.877

Energy kcal 139.650

Energy kj 583.870

*Protein* g 2.194

Total lipid (fat) g 0.399

Ash g 1.263

*Carbohydrate*, by difference g 32.292

Fiber, total dietary g 3.990

*Minerals*

Calcium, Ca mg 29.260

Iron, Fe mg 0.785

Magnesium, Mg mg 13.300

Phosphorus, P mg 37.240

Potassium, K mg 271.320

Sodium, Na mg 17.290

Zinc, Zn mg 0.372

Copper, Cu mg 0.225

Manganese, Mn mg 0.472

Selenium, Se mcg 0.798

*Vitamins*

Vitamin C, total ascorbic acid mg 30.191

Thiamin mg 0.088

Riboflavin mg 0.196

Niacin mg 0.896

Pantothenic acid mg 0.786

Vitamin B-6 mg 0.342

Folate, total mcg 18.620

Folic acid mcg 0.000

Folate, food mcg 18.620

Folate, DFE mcg_DFE 18.620

Vitamin B-12 mcg 0.000

Vitamin A, IU IU 26683.790

Retinol mcg 0.000

Vitamin A, RAE mcg_RAE 1333.990

Vitamin E mg_ATE 0.372

*Lipids *

Fatty acids, total saturated g 0.085

4:0 g 0.000

6:0 g 0.000

8:0 g 0.000

10:0 g 0.000

12:0 g 0.000

14:0 g 0.000

16:0 g 0.077

18:0 g 0.008

*Fatty acids*, total monounsaturated g 0.015

16:1 undifferentiated g 0.000

18:1 undifferentiated g 0.015

20:1 g 0.000

22:1 undifferentiated g 0.000

Fatty acids, total polyunsaturated g 0.176

18:2 undifferentiated g 0.148

18:3 undifferentiated g 0.027

18:4 g 0.000

20:4 undifferentiated g 0.000

20:5 n-3 g 0.000

22:5 n-3 g 0.000

22:6 n-3 g 0.000

*Cholesterol* mg 0.000

*Phytosterols* mg 15.960

*Amino acids*

Tryptophan g 0.027

Threonine g 0.109

Isoleucine g 0.109

Leucine g 0.161

Lysine g 0.108

Methionine g 0.055

Cystine g 0.017

Phenylalanine g 0.132

Tyrosine g 0.090

Valine g 0.144

Arginine g 0.102

Histidine g 0.041

Alanine g 0.120

Aspartic acid g 0.375

Glutamic acid g 0.214

Glycine g 0.098

Proline g 0.096

Serine g 0.113

*Nice huh?*

*
Now I know why all you guys eat these.*


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

i eat them because i like the colour orange...


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## crazycacti (Jun 20, 2004)

Thanks for the info mr scarborough/blackman...

bookmarked this page - i'll be having a go at this prob february time...

one thing i have to ask though - what are your energy levels like when carb cycling as opposed to a simple lowering of carbs/GIs - is it pretty constant even though your carb intake is fluctuating? and how low is it?


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

it varies mate your energy gets pretty low but when i do this i am dieting for a show and that focus gives me the energy i need.


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## crazycacti (Jun 20, 2004)

aye, can understand that - i'll try your way in feb Paul and see how i react, if all goes well i might do it properly for a show in a couple of years time


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## gazmatrix (Jan 6, 2005)

Pscarb said:


> yes mate when dieting i always do my morning cardio.
> 
> i up this to 2 sessions per day at 4-6 weeks out


Pscarb, what times would you do your cardio, in regards to your training? What would you take before and after your cardio? Do you recommend fasted cardio? Thanks for the help...<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" /><o></o>


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## crazycacti (Jun 20, 2004)

tom was saying how he takes some OJ, BCAAs and Glutamine before cardio in the morning to curb cortisol

i also agree when he says the OJ is there because some carbs need to be present for fat burning


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Water only first thing in the morning, no food, test levels are high and cortisol levels (if my memory serves me correctly low).

Caffene is good before cardio.

Twice the fat burning comming off of a resting fast.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

*I stand corrected*  *......Well correcting myself is better than someone else doing it. Seems that testosterone and cortisol are both high first thing in the morning but here is a snip from a article with bill phillips:*

It is true that if you do 30 minutes of aerobic exercise, reaching a pulse rate of 120 beats per minute after a 12-hour fast, it probably burns the same amount of calories as when you do 30 minutes of aerobic exercise, at an equal intensity, in the afternoon or evening, before or after a weight-training workout. The issue here is not how many calories you burn but where the energy comes from to fuel that exercise session. Remember, on the dieting phase, we've got to lose fat, and we've got to lose it fast! We need to do everything we can to get our bodies' fat stores to "mobilize" or burn up. We are much more interested in burning fat than carbohydrates or, even worse, amino acids--all of these substrates can fuel aerobic exercise.

The fact is that during resistance training, your testosterone peaks after 20 minutes, and then testosterone is dropping while cortisol increases.11 This leads to a less-than-optimal testosterone to cortisol ratio and is a very important reason to perform short but intense weight-training sessions. In contrast, during the early morning, cortisol rises, but testosterone is also peaking; thus, the ratio does not change significantly. Furthermore, you could become slightly dehydrated by conducting aerobic exercise after weight training, which could also trigger catabolism. What you need after your weight-training session is rest, carbohydrates, protein, and water.


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

gazmatrix said:


> Pscarb, what times would you do your cardio, in regards to your training? What would you take before and after your cardio? Do you recommend fasted cardio? Thanks for the help...fficeffice" /><O></O>


i do my cardio at 6.30-7.00ish in the morning i use 10g of glutamine and a handfull of amino caps before hand.

i eat my normal breakfast after wards.

in the evening i do the cardio about 20min after training


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## gazmatrix (Jan 6, 2005)

Pscarb said:


> i do my cardio at 6.30-7.00ish in the morning i use 10g of glutamine and a handfull of amino caps before hand.
> 
> i eat my normal breakfast after wards.
> 
> in the evening i do the cardio about 20min after training


Thanks


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## Tinytom (Sep 16, 2005)

crazycacti said:


> tom was saying how he takes some OJ, BCAAs and Glutamine before cardio in the morning to curb cortisol
> 
> i also agree when he says the OJ is there because some carbs need to be present for fat burning


The amount of OJ I have is about 1/4 of a pint at most. I only need to trigger a feedback in my brain that some carbs are present so that fat burning can be started. I've found that just this small amount can make morning cardio much easier. Also BCAA pills are easier to swallow and digest with OJ.

If curbing cortisol is your aim then you could also add phosphatidylserine to your morning (or evening before bed) pill pot. 800mg is the recommended dose for blunting cortisol, not completely though.

The best PS supplement is called CortBloc by Tropicana, quite cheap and high dosed.


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## the_gre8t_1ne (Apr 18, 2005)

Does it have to be freshly squeezed juice or can it be sumethin like sunny d (not that i drink that stuff)


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## Tinytom (Sep 16, 2005)

Well mine is Asda Smooth (No bits cause I'm a girly girl)

I don't suppose it matters what fruit juice you have, you could even have a sip of a glucose drink like Lucozade if you want. It's just about having a little sugar so that the brain recognises that sugar has been consumed and so will allow fat burning to take place more readily without breaking down muscle tissue (BCAAs will also help this)

I just like OJ cause it feels like a morning drink and I like the taste.:beer1:


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## the_gre8t_1ne (Apr 18, 2005)

Thanks for clearing that!


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Insulin is anti-catabolic, so anything that will make insulin rise will stem catabolism.

OKG is anti-catabolic, they give this to burn victoms so they dont eat their own tissue.

L-Glutamin is also anti-catabolic.

But testosteone levels are at their highest at about 7:00 A.M. so cortisol wont be a problem at this time.

It is kindof a cortisol to testosteone ratio that is important, see the chart below.


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## Tatyana (Jan 29, 2006)

crazycacti said:


> tom was saying how he takes some OJ, BCAAs and Glutamine before cardio in the morning to curb cortisol
> 
> i also agree when he says the OJ is there because some carbs need to be present for fat burning


To burn fat in the morning, I don't do OJ, I do take the rest of the stuff, and a really strong black coffee. Caffeine keeps the enzyme cascade pathway that 'burns' glycogen running. Once all the glycogen is gone, your body will burn fat. The glutamine and BCAAs will help to keep your body from burning muscle.

I also use herbal fat burners, which contain massive quantitites of caffeine, chromium picorate and ALA which also help burn fat stores.

As women hold more fat below the waist than above, I may also have a mini protein shake before I run if I think that I am burning muscle.

Unlike Tom, I can't tell how I look half the time, so I have to go on 'feelings' and technologies and having a few people watching me (ok, there may be a bit of a reveal as to my pic posting too).

I pinch myself a lot, have fat calipers and impedence scale. The impedence scale is rubbish really, but it will show me if my fat is going up or down, sort of (if your water fluctuates much, so does scale).

I also use pics I take of myself with my phone to 'see' myself better.

But I do suffer from body perception dysmorphia. On more than one occasion, I have come into the gym thinking I have become 'fat' overnight!! Getting one of the trainers to check my fat!! THinking that the striations on the back of my arms are fat!!! I know it is not logical, but on the last week or so of the comp diet...................

I do eat loads, I am more worried about slowing my metabolism, messing it up permanently by starving myself and then being a fat bastard!!


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Tatyana said:


> I do eat loads, I am more worried about slowing my metabolism, messing it up permanently by starving myself and then being a fat bastard!!


Do you really worry this will happen?

I think the only time this happens is when one gets insulin resistant or hypothyroid.

Other than that if you eat your maintenance then this wont happen.

I think this just might be in your head.

From 25 to 37 I overfed and got fat.

Went on a strict 40/30/30 diet and got in the best shape ever in my life.

At 38 I had a smaller waist than when I was 18 and weighed 10 lbs heavier and was actually stronger too.

I do know a chick that did cardio 7 days a week, did the stairmaster for one hour every day, tredmill for one hour every day, and did racquet ball on the weekends along with the tredmill and starimaster.

I asked her one day why she did so much cardio.

Her answer was she could eat what ever she wanted.

She said she ate a lb of chocolate a day.

She had a big butt but skinny top.

That did not make sense to me at the time, she could have cut the cholcoate and done 7 less hours of cardio a week.


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## Jimmy1 (Aug 14, 2003)

hackskii said:


> Although I dont do this myself.
> 
> Can you guys give me an idea of what you do in regards to carb cycling for pre-contest diets?
> 
> What I am looking for is help with the numbers (I know we all are not the same), but just a general idea of how you guys do the carb cycling to get into the single digit body fat %.


i know this is a late post....missed it somehow?!

The thing with carb cycling hacks is that its so effective due to the shock to your system

another great thing is that it breaks monotiny, and gives you days (high days) to look forward to

Tom and Paul have outlined what they find most effective for them but there are many ways to go about it for all of us

i see some bb'ers using 3-4 ultra low days, followed by 1 very high load..

.. a clean ultra low carb/fat, high protein aproach is used for the low days, with a load of junk food on the high day (if your doing this i sugest 6 low days, 1 high day per week)

this can be done in the early stages but will have to switch nearer to contest...in this case the junk food is dropped and clean carbs and fats replace it

Another way to cycle carbs is the 3-2-1-0 method

this would be a 3-4 day stagger, dropping the carbs every day till zero, then repeat....i prefer this method as i cant take too many low days in a row!

With any diet, even without cycling carbs......something has to change to keep the diet working as it goes on

many methods are used.....

*keeping food the same but increasing the cardio

*keeping the food same but increasing drugs such as t3/4 clen eph...etc

*slowly dropping the carbs as the weeks roll by

*or a combination of the 3 above

so with carb cycling, you need a way to work out the figures the cycle..yes?

The common way to do this is to have an average...so lets forget the cycling for one minute and think how traditional diets worked.

most people would set their protein/fats constant for the whole diet, whilst dropping carbs as the fat loss slows

For me, i start all my diets with 300g of carbs a day...then i lower the carbs as and when i need to, with the cut in carbs varying dependant on my progress

So back to carb cycling...

I keep to the above method when i cycle my carbs

all one needs is an average...so the 3 day stagger would be..400g, 300g, 200g, repeat...this yeilds an average of 300g per day

A 4 day stagger would be..500g, 400g, 300g, 0g...again, this is a 300g average

So, no matter what method one uses, you have to work out carefully what your daily intake of carbs is, (at whatever stage of the diet your at) and determine mathematically the amounts the carbs need to be each day when cycling


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## RAIKEY (Jun 30, 2005)

Pscarb said:


> the following is the way i carb cycled the last time i competed...
> 
> i had a 7 day turnaround
> 
> ...


wow!....sounds like simelar to the one TTom was advising me on last month,...

sounds great but the re-feed day .......700 gms from carbs??

thats gonna be over a kilo of oats or sweet spuds?

it obviously works tho you two look crackin ....(TTom an PScarb)


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

it does work for me you would have to recalculate the amount of carbs though for your metabolism...


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Wow, thanks guys.

Wouldnt refeeding be best (carb replenish) be best done after a workout?

Maybe first thing in the morning on the refeed day?

Or just pound down the carbs all day?

I wanted to wait till the weekend but (I was going to take this chick to dinner) this is the day I dont workout.

Question really is does it make a diffrence when the refeed is done?

Or should it be at least on a workout day to repenish glycogen stores and less chance to store as fat?

Or makes no diffrence at all?

Cookie suggest the cheat day on non workout days and this is where I am having confusion.


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## Tinytom (Sep 16, 2005)

Personally Hackskii I do some cardio on my refeed day first thing then I ram down as much food as I possibly can.opcorn:

Then I usually sprawl out :faintn the sofa :couch2:and fart the day away. ainkille I love and hate my refeed days because I always feel sluggish for a few hours.

I think after a hard week dieting you need to give yourself a good kick. And a pat on the back for being so strict.

I tend not to eat too many fats on cheat day just carbs.

I also make myself some flapjacks full of fruit and nuts. Yummy. reggers:


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## RAIKEY (Jun 30, 2005)

EXCELLENT USE OF THE SMILEY'S THERE YOUNG MAN (oops , caps on , i,m not shoutin,but cant be ****d to retype it)........well done......

tho thats the first time i've heard flapjacks make you pregnant.!


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## Tinytom (Sep 16, 2005)

RAIKEY said:


> EXCELLENT USE OF THE SMILEY'S THERE YOUNG MAN (oops , caps on , i,m not shoutin,but cant be ****d to retype it)........well done......
> 
> tho thats the first time i've heard flapjacks make you pregnant.!


Yes didn't you know that Raikey? It's the same as kissing a girl behind the bike sheds, that makes you pregnant as well.

But you can't get a girl pregnant if she's a virgin and you bang her.

:smoke:


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Excellant.

Now all I have to do is muster up enough courage to do some cardio.

I really hate cardio but I do need to do it.

Anyone ever notice after you take in some carbs after being low for lets say a week you get your vains popping out?

Looks kindof freaky.

And I am not very lean either:eek:


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## RAIKEY (Jun 30, 2005)

LOL!

thats nearly the same as something DB told me once when he stayed at mine....

he said...if he dosent put it all the way in, it dosent count as gay........

i tell my Mrs the same thing when we go swimming.(she cant swim you see) and i tell her, if i take my finger out,... she'll sink........*boom boom ching*


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## Tinytom (Sep 16, 2005)

quality advice there Raikey. 

I must spread some reputation around before giving it to you again.


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

i do the same as Tom concerning refeed days i will be up at 7.00am tomorrow morning to do 45min on my treadmill then i will refeed all day however my refeed tomorrow will be 90% clean as i have only been dieting for 1 week....

i do like the feeling though in the gym on the following monday night after eating carbs what a pump...


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## Tinytom (Sep 16, 2005)

Yes I know Paul I bet you must feel nearly as big and as strong as me.


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

*NEVER!!!* because you are my idle and the biggest and strongest elf i know....


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## robdog (Dec 2, 2003)

Im bar cycling at the moment and im down 15-16lbs in about 5 weeks so im chuffed.

I do 350/250/150/50 then repeat. I have one cheat day a week where im allowed an extra 1000 cals or so. If high carb day falls the day after cheat day i go straight to 250g of carbs instead.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Cool guys thanks.

Raikey, you are a really nice guy helping to teach your Wife how to swin like that, what a true gentleman you are.

I just hope there are more good men around like you and you are a model to the young lads.

Keep up the good work mate


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