# Deca + Nolva = bad idea ???



## mdma (Mar 11, 2007)

Hello bros...

Does Nolva+Deca induces a bigger risk of gynecomastia like I read it on some others boards ?

I usually run a low dose of Nolva while on cycle and never got a probleme, but what I read made me wonder...

Thanks for your help...


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

well a cycle of just deca is a bad idea in itself to be honest mate, gyno from deca is progesterone gyno and cannot be treated with nolvadex so running both together would be a waste..


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## mdma (Mar 11, 2007)

Well cycle will include Test and d-bol (4 first weeks)... I'll also be running Vitamin B6 for progesterone & AIFM thru whole cycle...

Just heard that Deca + Test could induce two different types of gyno or am I all wrong ?


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## linkbailey (Oct 3, 2007)

you are right,

as pscarb said gyno from deca is progesterone gyno, and gyno from test is estrogen related.


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

no you are not wrong deca can induce progesterone gyno test will produce the normal run of the mill gyno but getting either depends on if you are prone to it....


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## MrBigorexia (Jul 15, 2006)

mdma said:


> Hello bros...
> 
> Does Nolva+Deca induces a bigger risk of gynecomastia like I read it on some others boards ?


What boards were you reading this on mate? It should do no such thing, in fact exactly the opposite. While Nolva doesn't combat gyno aggrevated by progestins directly, it does so indirectly through supression of oestrogen (which is required for progestins or other hormones such as prolactin/GH/IGF to exert their agonistic effect on breast tissue).


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

Nolvadex does not suppress oestrogen in the body it blocks oestrogen binding to the receptor sites thus reducing the risk of gyno this is one of the reasons it has no effect on progesterone gyno.


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## Marsbar (Nov 10, 2007)

Paul .. would adex or letro be suitable to run with deca?


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## MrBigorexia (Jul 15, 2006)

Pscarb said:


> Nolvadex does not suppress oestrogen in the body it blocks oestrogen binding to the receptor sites thus reducing the risk of gyno this is one of the reasons it has no effect on progesterone gyno.


Yes, you are quite right, tamoxifen is a SERM and merely competitively binds to selective oestrogen receptors, thus preventing oestrogen from exerting its effects in certain tissues.

But progesterone (and the other hormones mentioned) will not exert an independent effect without sufficient activation of these breast ERalpha receptors by oestrogen first (this is not to say that the oestrogen was causing gyno, merely that it is required for the other hormones to cause gyno). This is because progesterone differentiates breast tissue (forming ducts etc); as such it is a secondary (cascade) process that should not proceed in the absence of oestrogen.

Unfortunately, some people are so sensitive that even a miniscule amount of ERalpha activation by oestrogen is sufficient to enable other hormones (or even drugs) to cause gynecomastia. The most effective course of action should still be to lower the effect of oestrogen as much as possible (eg nolva, sometimes letro) or to stop using the offending AS.


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

yes in a way i agree but still this does not get around the fact that Nolvadex will not help in any way with progesterone gyno but an AI might as this does lower oestrogen still this will not cure the problem.

unfortunatly guys normally do not know the difference in the two types and throw the wrong drugs at it to clear it.

the other thing we need to raise is that progesterone gyno is no where near as common as normal gyno so chances are much less.

winny does help with progesterone gyno as it is a anti-progestagenic....


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

here is an excellant but simple read on the differences.....

Combating Oestrogens and Progesterone

By Bigfella

Oestrogens and progesterone are two hormones responsible for female characteristics. They can be produced as a side effect of anabolic steroid use when they convert (aromatise) into these hormones. Both are responsible for some of the side effects of steroid use, eg gyno (gynecomastia - female breast tissue development in males, aka 'bitch tits'), female body fat deposition, water retention, etc.

Anti-oestrogens are compounds which act to reduce oestrogenic activity in the body. This is achieved in one of two ways, and there are different drugs which fall into these categories.

Anti-Oestrogens

Competitive Aromatase Inhibitors

Competitive aromatase inhibitors bind to the same site on the enzyme aromatase as testosterone does. This allows less testosterone to bind to aromatase, which in turn means less is converted to oestradiol (the primary type of oestrogen). An important point to note is that the amount of inhibitor required rises with increasing steroid dose i.e. higher doses of Arimidex or Proviron are required to prevent the aromatisation of 1000mg/week of testosterone than 500mgs/week.

Arimidex (Anastrozole)

Arimidex is the perfect choice for when using high doses of aromatising steroids, or indeed even for moderate doses if the individual is prone to gyno. It is thought that it may be possible to lower oestrogen levels too much with Arimidex and for this reason blood tests are recommended to determine whether the dosing schedule is correct for maximum results, as it is theorised that some oestrogen presence is required to keep the androgen receptors 'open'. Arimidex has excellent binding qualities at the receptor and therefore only low doses are required. The main downside is its price; it is very expensive (see article 'The Price of Gear')

Dosing

Arimidex is supplied in 1mg tablets.

Usual dose is between 0.25 - 1mg/day. In most cases 0.5mg/day is sufficient.

Proviron (Mesterolone)

Proviron is an anabolic steroid with little direct anabolic properties. It has good binding qualities with the androgen receptor, but most never reaches the androgen receptor in muscle tissue, as it is enzymatically converted to diol. It is however effective as an anti-aromatase, and is believed to also act in an anti-oestrogenic manner due to certain oestrogen receptor down-regulation, making it a very effective compound for preventing gyno. Proviron also helps restore sexual dysfunctions caused by steroid cycling, helping to increase sexual desire as a result of the increased androgen levels, a downside can be permanent erections in some males which at first may sound fantastic but can be extremely painful, in which case the dose should be lowered or discontinued. Proviron will also help reduce excess bloating caused by water retention.

Proviron can be used effectively throughout clomid therapy as it displays no signs of inhibiting the HPTA (see article 'Clomid and HCG'), and is helpful in keeping androgen levels elevated until natural testosterone production is restored correctly. The androgenic activity is also responsible for the distinct hardening of muscles and is one reason it is often favoured leading up to competitions.

Dosing

Proviron is supplied in 25mg tablets.

Usual dose is between 25 to 100mg/day, in most cases 25 to 50mg/day is sufficient. Dose is best split am and pm.

Oestrogen receptor antagonists

Oestrogen receptor antagonists are weak oestrogens which bind strongly to a hormone receptor, but do not activate the receptor and make it unresponsive to the stronger oestrogenic hormones present due to the aromatisation of steroids.

Nolvadex (Tamoxifen citrate)

Nolvadex is not a steroid but a triphenylethylene with potent anti-estrogenic properties. Its clinical use is primarily in chemotherapy for cancer patients. It is very useful and successful in combination with a steroid regimen at reducing water retention and preventing gyno. Nolvadex is probably the most commonly used anti-oestrogen mainly due to its mostly positive effects, availability and low price. Controversy surrounds the fact that it anecdotally appears to reduce gains made on a cycle, mostly due to reduced water retention, but most users agree that losses, if any, are minimal and its always difficult to say what gains may have been made in its absence.

Dosing

An effective dose seems to be 10 to 20mg/day.

At first signs of a possible gyno, take 20mg/day until symptoms subside, then 10mg/day until completion of cycle and post-cycle Clomid therapy.

Clomid (Clomifen)

Like Nolvadex, Clomid is not a steroid but a triphenylethylene with anti-oestrogenic properties. The two compounds are structurally similar and their mechanism of action is also similar.

The general consensus though, is that Clomid is best left as a post-cycle natural testosterone recovery product and a more appropriate anti-oestrogen found, as Clomid does not seem to be as effective in this role.

Progestins

The presence of progesterone in male bodybuilders is through the use of the progestins, i.e. Oxymetholone (Anadrol, Anapolan50), Trenbolone (Finaject, Parabolan) and Nandrolone (Deca durabolin). A large problem for the bodybuilder is that the symptoms displayed by progesterone are identical to those of oestrogen, but the concurrent use of the typical anti-oestrogens appears to have no effect in controlling or treating it.

Progesterone tends to aggravate oestrogen induced gyno symptoms, making them more difficult to cure. We will look at some methods of avoiding or controlling them, bearing in mind that progesterone actually requires oestrogen presence to activate it in the first place.

Use with non-aromatising steroids

If progesterone requires oestrogen presence to activate it, then one method of avoiding this would be to use the progestins in stacks with non-aromatising steroids. Amazingly heavy androgenic steroids like Anadrol and Trenbolone are exceptionally mild and safe with regard to female characteristics when used in conjunction with non-aromatising steroids like Primobolan or Winstrol. This is great news for the gyno-prone individual who has previously avoided these stronger steroids for fear of gyno development. A simple stack of Anadrol and Primobolan will go along way to packing on some serious mass without the worry of developing gyno.

Competitive Aromatase Inhibitors

If aromatising steroids are to be included in the stack with progestagenic steroids, then the concurrent use of Competitive Aromatase Inhibitors, like Arimidex or Proviron, would also seem a sensible option. These can be incorporated to keep oestrogen levels low and avoid the activation of the progesterone. Although they will not help with already developed progesterone induced gyno, they can certainly be employed to avoid its development. As usual, the amount of aromatase inhibitor required increases with increasing dose of aromatising steroids used, but the best dose is still the minimum amount that can be got away with to produce the desired effect.

Winstrol

The use of Winstrol is also an effective method of controlling progesterone-induced gyno, as it is anti-progestagenic. An effective dose appears to be in the vicinity of 50mg eod (depot) or 30 to 35mg/day (tabs) although this dose may require increasing depending on the doses being employed in the stack.

One important point worth mentioning is, although generally the progestins do not aromatise, there is an exception to this rule: Deca, as well as being a progestin also aromatises, only very slightly, but nevertheless, still does to some extent. Although this is not nearly enough to cause the large majority any problems at all, for those extremely sensitive to gyno, this small amount of aromatisation to oestrogen can be enough of an elevation to activate the progesterone. Very few people are likely to suffer this, but we feel it is a point worth mentioning.

All of the above mentioned compounds can be used effectively as part of steroid cycles, but careful consideration should be given to selecting the correct compound/s for the duty required.

Warning! Articles related to the use of illegal performance enhancing drugs are for information purposes only and are the sole expressions of the individual authors opinion. We do not promote the use of these substances and the information contained within this publication is not intended to persuade or encourage the use or possession of illegal substances. These substances should be used only under the advice and supervision of a qualified, licensed physician.


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## MrBigorexia (Jul 15, 2006)

Pscarb said:


> yes in a way i agree but still this does not get around the fact that Nolvadex will not help in any way with progesterone gyno but an AI might as this does lower oestrogen still this will not cure the problem.
> 
> unfortunatly guys normally do not know the difference in the two types and throw the wrong drugs at it to clear it.
> 
> ...


The problem with gyno is that trying to figure out what's causing it can be tough, especially if you are stacking a load of compounds.

Winny always causes terrible gyno for me, for instance. In this case, it could be its purported efficacy in boosting IGF-1 that could be the cause. But I'm never going to know this. Used with Tren, however, it seems to lessen the symptoms of the gyno I get from that.

Typically, attacking oestrogen seems to work best for all causes of gyno, and serms seem to do this more effectively than AIs (you're right that they don't reduce circulating oestrogen, but they stop it from acting at the breast tissue very effectively). But if that fails, and AIs do no better then, as you say, there aren't many options apart from stopping.

But going back to the OP, using Deca and Nolva can't make things worse. But it might make things better if reducing the effect (at the receptor) of oestrogen stops the progestins from causing gyno.


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## mdma (Mar 11, 2007)

MrBigorexia said:


> What boards were you reading this on mate? It should do no such thing, in fact exactly the opposite. While Nolva doesn't combat gyno aggrevated by progestins directly, it does so indirectly through supression of oestrogen (which is required for progestins or other hormones such as prolactin/GH/IGF to exert their agonistic effect on breast tissue).


Read it there : http://www.t-nation.com/tmagnum/readTopic.do?id=1847374&pageNo=0


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

that would explain it then 

Mr B - yes i agree but SERMs can only occupy the receptors to a point they will not totally block oestrogen and as we both agree does not lower circulating eostrogen although using nolvadex with deca will definatly not make anything worse in my opinion it is a waste but wont do no harm...


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## MrBigorexia (Jul 15, 2006)

OK mate having read that, even they aren't claiming Nolva will cause gyno, just theorising that it might, perhaps.

That poster is acknowledging that oestrogen is required to cause progestin/prolactin gyno, but he is also theorising that a SERM could provide the 'oestrogen' necessary to promote those kinds of gyno (because it can act like an oestrogen at certain tissues).

The problem with this argument is that tamoxifen is actually acting to prevent transcription at the breast tissue receptor site (modulating the receptor): it isn't sending out signals (chains of mRNA) that correspond to the presence of oestrogen. A SERM can't be 'mistaken' for oestrogen at the breast because it's not acting as one in any physical sense.

Without those signals, it can't be the necessary oestrogen 'substitute' that the person in that post is theorising could aggrevate progestin/prolactin gyno.


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## mdma (Mar 11, 2007)

MrBigorexia said:


> OK mate having read that, even they aren't claiming Nolva will cause gyno, just theorising that it might, perhaps.
> 
> That poster is acknowledging that oestrogen is required to cause progestin/prolactin gyno, but he is also theorising that a SERM could provide the 'oestrogen' necessary to promote those kinds of gyno (because it can act like an oestrogen at certain tissues).
> 
> ...


Thanks for explaining it


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## mdma (Mar 11, 2007)

Thanks bros for all the infos...


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## str8updre (Feb 8, 2008)

From what i heard, Nolva is a SERM (meaning it is used during PCT) not during cycle. since you are running test you can use Arimidex or letro @ .25mg ed or eod. For the deca, keep Cabergoline in hand in case you notice a change in your nipples (i.e swelling puffing etc) you know its not estrogen related because you are running letro or Arimi So use cabergoline in case it happens. Then use Nolva for PCT along with clomid


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

SERM does not mean it can only be used in PCT, Nolvadex is the first line of defence before you use an AI.

Nolvadex will block the receptor so oestrogen cannot attach if this does happen then you should move up to a AI but one of the issues with using an AI is the problems they cancause to your lipids.

no need to crack an egg with a sledge hammer


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