# 20-rep squats



## justheretosnoop (Jun 15, 2012)

I've read recently that the quads are primarily made of type 2a fibers so should respond better to higher rep ranges - is that right?

If so, does/has anyone trained like this? I'm not talking about sticking a light load on the bar and smashing out a quick 20. I mean doing say 1 set of 20 heavy single reppers with say 5-10 seconds breather between each rep.


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## SX Dave (Jun 14, 2007)

Iv often read higher rep ranges for legs. No reason why what you say wouldn't work or even without the breather.

I'm thinking of upping my rep range on legs as been same for ages now. Think around 15 straight reps for a couple of months will see how it goes.


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## mark_star1466868017 (Jul 14, 2011)

i really like the higher reps for legs, 15s and 20s, tend to rest pause from 10 upwards. i do feel that it has added good mass to me pins


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## crazycal1 (Sep 21, 2005)

i been doing 20 rep rest pause for periods this last year..

my rule is 3 breathes per rest, as many rest as needed..

i never got down to 1 pure set as weight's were relatively low and planned on dropping to one all out set of 20 when i hit a predetermined weight.

theyre highly systemically demanding and need a lot of rest afters.

i only changed format due to my back not agreeing with so much time under tension.

i`d employ a rest pause principle to any rep range i use.

doing rest pause with a belt is actually harder cos your chest is restricted by the weight of the bar and your abdomen is restricted by the belt making it actually harder to breathe.

this taught me to lower myself VERY slowly with no momentum on the turnaround at the bottom which allowed me to not use a belt.

in the end my back didnt like this but anyone with a vaguely solid back should have no probs IF YOU GO SLOW ENUFF on the way down and then power up leading with your hips and lower back and keeping chest up.


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## justheretosnoop (Jun 15, 2012)

I think to add mass you're surely need to keep the weight as high as poss though? I know the whole TUT thing poss proves lighter weight can be beneficial but the circumstances aren't quite the same.

Mark, for your higher reps what % of say a set of 8-10 would you use?

My pins are feckin awful! Poundages are slowly increasing but i'm noticing very little in size so considering a new approach.


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## mark_star1466868017 (Jul 14, 2011)

thats hard to say coz i never do 8-10, but it is pretty high, the rest pause allows you to keep high pos 90%


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## Loz1466868022 (Oct 12, 2011)

Dorsey said:


> I think to add mass you're surely need to keep the weight as high as poss though? I know the whole TUT thing poss proves lighter weight can be beneficial but the circumstances aren't quite the same.
> 
> Mark, for your higher reps what % of say a set of 8-10 would you use?
> 
> My pins are feckin awful! Poundages are slowly increasing but i'm noticing very little in size so considering a new approach.


Hi Bud dont know if this will help as youve seen mine ha

since i started ive always done 15 bar leverage , then [email protected]+bar ive always kept the warm up plate free then do [email protected] then ive been doing my rising weight with 15-20 reps currently at [email protected] then [email protected] i will always do 2-3 reps of either 140 or 150 to finish and i am building this up to 120kg for 20 reps mainly trying to do 55-60 total working reps then play around with heavier weight and see how many reps i can get really knacked doing it this way but it has i think promoted some growth i only do 4 leg exercises as i ride my bike too


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## justheretosnoop (Jun 15, 2012)

TheCrazyCal said:


> i been doing 20 rep rest pause for periods this last year..
> 
> my rule is 3 breathes per rest, as many rest as needed..


That's exactly what I was considering tbh. But when you say you planned on dropping to one all out set of 20 do you again mean without r/p? So r/p would just be a means to an end until you hit the real deal?

Fleg/Loz - do you both do high reps straight off or are you employing the rest/pause technique?

I.e. are you all saying you'd prefer just to go straight at it for reps than do 20 single reps even if it meant poundages were down?


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## crazycal1 (Sep 21, 2005)

no it`d be still done rest pause.


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## justheretosnoop (Jun 15, 2012)

Think I might switch to this then for a few months and see how I progress.

Was watching your SLDL vid earlier, defo reckon my form is off. Think I keep my legs too stiff/straight where as you have a slight bend at the knee?


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## Loz1466868022 (Oct 12, 2011)

go straight into them and do as many slowly as i can without too much break as i get nearer the twenty mark ie around 16 @100 the gaps between the reps gets larger until im out of breath then i have a little break load up more plate then 120 ranges from 2 secs to 5-10 secs near the last reps im finding the 100 getting easier now but still struggle with breath @ 120 after 5-6 reps no more than ten tho bud


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## justheretosnoop (Jun 15, 2012)

Interesting too see the different ways ppl approach squats then. Can imagine that leg ext pre-ex really takes it out of you?

Re SLDL: I'm the same with the angel, make sure there's constant tension. THINK I keep my legs preset much locked out though, will double check next week.


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## AChappell (Jun 1, 2011)

I think your mistaken Dorsey, Type 2a fibres are fast glycosidic, good for quick bursts and power exercises 10s stuff rather than the type 1 slow oxidative fibre. Fibre typing is determined itself by a combination of genetic factors accounting for 45% of inter individual differences and environmental stresses i.e exercise. These fibres however can be highly trainable and there are also intermediate fibres that take on the phenotype (characteristics) of different fibres depending on the training.

Type 2a or Type X fibres are much larger than that of the type 1 so if you want to increase size in your leg's the main focus should be on these fibres, stimulated by explosive movements, heavy weight, around the 80% 1RM+ range.

While the article you read may purport that quadriceps are mainly type 2, I would disagree with such a generalization. The methods used to measure fibre type are usually via muscle biopsies and staining of volunteers fibres, thus it is difficult to assess the actual fibre content from a few samples taken at random spots on a muscle a few mm in length.

I would postulate that the make up is actually more bias towards a type 1 make up given their role in locomotion and so the major focus should be on the 6- 12 rep range, rather than a 20 rep range.

With all that in mind though, I've done many a high rep squat workout and I regularly do high rep squats at the end of a squat session. I still think it's important to stimulate those type 1 fibres, but not at the expense of type 2 fibres.

Your Colemans, Dorains, Warrens and Yate's of this world all focused on heavy weight's and reps in the 2-12 rep range and I don't think you could say any of those guy's where lacking in the leg development department.


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## justheretosnoop (Jun 15, 2012)

Cheers Andy. Although I don't claim to understand everything you've just said I did wonder if my initial claim was correct. Must try digging out the article I was reading for reference..,


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## justheretosnoop (Jun 15, 2012)

Taken from Poliquin:

The quadriceps are primarily composed of the less powerful Type IIa fibers and as such respond best to higher reps. Just look at the impressive thigh development of speed skaters and cyclers, even in the distance events. One of the best high-rep squatters was Tom Platz. Platz, who finished third in the 1981 Mr. Olympia, had arguably the best thigh development of any bodybuilder&#8230;ever. He claims to have squatted 585 pounds for 23 reps.

Many authors of the Iron Game, have espoused this system to help trainees to gain mass, from Peary Rader to Randall Strossen.

Although many variations of this program exist, generally there is some type of warm-up and you perform only one all-out set of 20 reps. Also, it's often recommended to take three deep breaths between each rep. What is actually happening when you take the breaths is that you're doing 20 single-rep sets with about 10 seconds of rest between each rep. This rest enables you to recruit more higher-threshold motor units than you would if you did the 20 reps with minimal rest between sets. If you're looking for a challenge and a quick way to pack on some muscle mass, then 20-rep squats are worth a try.


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## AChappell (Jun 1, 2011)

That articles wrong I'm afraid, its either it must be a typo, or an honest mistake. Although with polquin it wouldn't surprise me if this was a genuine belief of his given the nonsense he preaches at times.

That aside 20 rep squats are a useful edition to your armoury to stimulate growth, but you shouldn't do them at the expense of heavier set squats.


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## justheretosnoop (Jun 15, 2012)

Ok, point taken. You're one clever dude I must admit. Gonna pick the highlights of your comments and post them on his site to see if I get a response!

You sound as though you're not his biggest fan. Any views his his BioSig Modulation technique?


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## Loz1466868022 (Oct 12, 2011)

i can can see whats being said here and the science behind it, but surely to promote growth regardless you should always mix up your legs exercises anyway(its common sense to change it periodically as the body adapts) with squat variations ie rest pause/slow heavy weight long and short sets , some light weight quick reps also, and not forgeting heavy 1 reppers to push you weights up and challenge yourself, mixed with various other legs exercises (heavy bike ride is good too)and change them often surely this is they way to promote growth? for me i find it gets boring quicky after a while so changing the body part exercise wether it be weight or exercise duration, reps, sets i always try to keep the body guessing when it starts to become easy then its time to change =-) sorry for thread hijack bud


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## AChappell (Jun 1, 2011)

Sorry didn't mean to hijack the thread from 20 rep squats Dorsey. I've read some of Polquins stuff, anything I've ever read on training has been good and a lot of it is, but when he starts to take a molecular approach, I think it kind of falls down a bit. He also makes sweeping controversial statements saying things like "doing cardio for anymore than 2 minutes will kill you"and "we didn't evolve to chaise animals, we evolved to throw rocks at them" this appeals to his audience and they eat it up blindly. He then he goes on to make inferences about things that are way out of his field so I'd liken him to Gillian McKeith in some respects.

The principle seems sound enough for something like biosigniture modulation and I think your probably the 6th or 7th person to now have asked me about this. The hormones selected all seem to corelate more or less with bodyfat levels. i.e the lower your bodyfat the more favorable your readings for test, Insulin, cortisol, thyroid and oestrogen are likely to be, I'm not sure if they do your LDL/HDL and look at minerals and vitamins to. Getting these battery of tests done would be great I think everyone would agree but one website I looked at was charging £745 for it, so it's a lot to put out. So I think it's an awful lot to pay for a Nutritional program, some bloods, a training plan, supplement plan and email support. I don't even think the price was offering follow up. I need to look into it a bit more to see what it really involves.

Like I said though most of these things correlate pretty well with bodyfat so you can always make a connection with them i.e your overweight so your test is likely to be low oestrogeon high, cortisol and thyorid elevated, and you might be slightly insulin resistant. So an awful lot to pay for someone to say your fat these results prove it here's a program. The program they give you is probably pretty sound though as is all the other support so if you had the money to do it then why not I probably would, but you could probably get Cal or Neil on here to make you up a program give you email support and draw you up a supplement plan and nutrition plan for a fraction of the price.

Lozza I totally agree it's important to mix it up to stimulate all the other fibres of the legs it simply all comes down to the principle of overload. So whatever you do to overload the muscle be it rest pause high reps or heavy weight like you said you have to place enough stress on those type 2 fibres to grow and weight is the easiest way to do that, since these fibres are stimulated at a high threshold. Imagine the cross sectional area of a muscle some type 1 some 2 some 2a they work on a threshold. They don't become active until a certain amount of stress is placed on them it's called the all or nothing principle. So you could activate 95% of your fibres doing all these different variations but might fail to get that last 5% because the weights not heavy enough. This is one of the reasons why I think you get a different burn from different rep ranges.


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## justheretosnoop (Jun 15, 2012)

Hijack away dude!

I was actually planning on starting a BioSig thread at some point but haven't had time. It seems like a sound enough process to follow, i'd be interested to see what results could be gleamed from it. I went to get my bf measured last week and the chap who did it has been on the course etc. I've since emailed over my current diet to see if he could suggest any spot-reduction nutrition (especially around the love-handle area) but I haven't heard back from him to date. To be fair though, he's a friend of a friend so I only paid him a tenner to cover the time taken to do the initial readings so cant expect too much! A few yrs ago i'd have probably thrown stupid amounts of dough at something like this but things are much tighter these days with family etc so it's not something i'll be looking too deeply into. As you say though, perhaps implementing some of the dieting techniques used might be of some benefit. I think Neil touched on it a few months back when he put a plan in place for my other half after giving birth.

As for the squats, my legs/poles seem unwilling to grow no matter what I try! I'll be sure to keep slogging away though....


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## AChappell (Jun 1, 2011)

These thing's take time Dorsey, I've been at it 7 years and my chest used to be flatter than a 14 yr old girls! I've had to fight for every ounce of muscle there, we all have our weaknesses. BioSigniture like I say great concept getting bloods done, but is it worth the money for the feedback you get and the program they give you. Like I said you could get Neil or Cal to do the same for a fraction of the price.

Interesting thing on bodyfat, British athletics will only allow people who are ISAK approved to do skin folds for their athletes, so for all it's biosigs hype you wouldn't be allowed officially to take bodyfat since your not qualified enough.

As for spot reduction nutrition I'm not convinced. Think of it logically, create a calorie deficit your going to lose weight. The weight comes off where ever it sees fit really in this instance. Combine it with exercise, it's more logical, ie train abs lots you might lose more fat on your abs. But taking a herb or supplement specific to an area won't work for lots of reasons, inter individual for one. This is bordering on the realms of pharmacology and is one of the reasons why drug development is difficult but consider you have 2 receptors in your arms. One sensitive to your spot reduction herb the other not. I might have the same receptors but only have a sensitivity to that herb in my big toe and little to no affinity in my arms. Anyway I'm rambling let us know how the squats go.


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## justheretosnoop (Jun 15, 2012)

Just going off subject slightly...

[email protected]: how low exactly to you go on your squats? Or anyone else for that matter who does proper ATG?


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## crazycal1 (Sep 21, 2005)

squats vid in me journal 

fcuk ATG its not a long term option.

watch what your lower back does 1" approaching parallel.. :wink:


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## crazycal1 (Sep 21, 2005)

if you do reps slow your legs will grow dorsey..


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## Loz1466868022 (Oct 12, 2011)

ive only just found out what ass to grass was, i can post a little vid at some point im sure i will but i thought you had to get as low as possible and this is what i strive always to do, but im on a leverage system so the forward and back motion is eliminated but dont think this has much impact on the movement as i thought the lower the better for the leg strength?


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## crazycal1 (Sep 21, 2005)

lower is better IF you can maintain it..

my point is its usually not.

best ROM for gains is safest and most maintainable.


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## justheretosnoop (Jun 15, 2012)

TheCrazyCal said:


> lower is better IF you can maintain it..
> 
> my point is its usually not.
> 
> best ROM for gains is safest and most maintainable.


Well I'm sure it's maintainable IF the weight isn't as heavy. So, weight or ROM?


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## Loz1466868022 (Oct 12, 2011)

TheCrazyCal said:


> if you do reps slow your legs will grow dorsey..


 blimey i go hammer and tongs for the first set and then slow up up for the remainder


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## crazycal1 (Sep 21, 2005)

i`ll qualify that by saying starting out light weight and shortened rom.

as you approach parallel with whatever weight your lower back stretches, i just dont like that, it takes nothing for the lower back to stiffen up and in time it`ll catch up with you.

think 10 years down the line dude..

i can squat 110kg, i restarted out at 60kg.. i`m at 90kg now and have taken 3? months getting only this far.. (i havent squatted prior to my fusion for years)


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## crazycal1 (Sep 21, 2005)

lozza check my squats vid in journal mate.

it wasnt until i saw the galtonator squatting 160kg i realised slow was the way to go..

serious weight dictates a slow safe speed.. snail speed..

in my head i go slower than i really do but i`m always trying tohold myself back as much as poss..

work the muscle, dont just hump weight up and down.


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## doggy (Mar 26, 2011)

what page are these squats on cal? theres 168 pages.


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## justheretosnoop (Jun 15, 2012)

Well my legs are still telling me I worked the muscle last night but seeing as I'm doing 100-120 who the feck knows eh.

Still got poles though so perhaps that's a sign.


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## Loz1466868022 (Oct 12, 2011)

my last few months squats are like this bud

think bar weight is 10 or 15kg

14/01/2012

[email protected] wu

[email protected]

[email protected]

[email protected]

18/01/2012

[email protected] wu

[email protected]

[email protected]

[email protected]

[email protected]

23/01/2012

[email protected]

[email protected]

[email protected]

[email protected]

[email protected]

06/02/2012

[email protected]

[email protected]

[email protected]

[email protected]

[email protected]

nearly passed out

13/02/2012

[email protected]

[email protected]

[email protected]

[email protected]

[email protected]

20/02/2012

[email protected]

[email protected]

[email protected]

[email protected]

[email protected]

27/02/2012

[email protected]

[email protected]

[email protected]

[email protected]

[email protected] pb

[email protected] still aching after this one now

this is what ive done up to date and will do another month but then will drop the weight down after a full week of rest on the legs, i also do leg extensions, lying leg curls and standing calf raises, im trying to get a vid sorted as i have one somewhere from jan, just want you lot to pick the form to bits speed i can sort


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## Loz1466868022 (Oct 12, 2011)

DSCF0012.AVI - YouTube you can all have a laugh now boys the weight is 100kg plus whatever that lever weight is about 10-15kg i think please pick at your leisure any tips would be welcome


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## Phenix (May 12, 2012)

here a tip change the pussys boy xx lol


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## Loz1466868022 (Oct 12, 2011)

im still hurting now glutes especially, aint got no leg press but i can adapt something if needed , so dont lock out legs then fleg is this better? , what would you class as a heavy set just for a pointer , also when you say go full rom am i not doing this? i will go to a gym at some point or get a cage to see if thhere is a big diffrence sorry to plaster this on your thread dorse just thought it was relevant


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## Loz1466868022 (Oct 12, 2011)

I'm going past par with thighs on the movement from what I can see , toes are straight so I will change this bud , what's your thoughts on my form


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## Loz1466868022 (Oct 12, 2011)

Will also try flat shoes too


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## Loz1466868022 (Oct 12, 2011)

No I understand I always was unsure about the plate incline and when you get to the top of the range it goes forward slighty keeping legs bent and not fully extending makes perfect sense, legs are 400mm apart due to the plate width , but I think shoes will help and toes out slightly , lol the er wiggle was getting settled mate I'm a little less panicky with the movement now. Cheers for comments though much appreciated off to bed now


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## crazycal1 (Sep 21, 2005)

fleg said:


> Each to their own go full rom if you can. If you dont get at least parallel u wont engage the glutes. It literally hurts when i sit down for 2-3 days after squats. If your back feels worked one week and still aches use the leg press instead. Get a good belt for heavy set. I never fully extend either always keep a bend in knees I don't lock out.
> 
> Also agree it's gotta be slow and controlled. Tbh if it isn't you prov won't get back up anyway lol.


it might be like that in theory fleg but i have a wicked ass and thats not compared to a 44 years olds, thats compared to any lol..

i aint starting a thread to prove it tho..

i always ache for days after too..

lozza not sure what to say bud, reps are being done from the hips and youre moving well but are wobbly at the top, slow it down bud and your back will last longer..

your time under tension is negligible.

its all momentum and brute strength..

i guess to qualify my safe ROM philosphy i`ll just say assume a full ROM needs to be worked up too, dont assume a full ROM is best and then work more partially.

i do think as my weights are modest and my legs aint too shabby that i`m onto something and of course i`m trying it all out with multiple experiment on my clients..

its not what you lift its also how you lift it.

greg valentino said if you can go ATG (lol) with an honest 300lbs on squats and youre legs aint growing your doing something wrong.

this place should be sh1tting videos what with phone cameras these days..

wanna know why youre legs aint growing stick a vid up i bet between us there aint many probs that cant be ironed out..


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## flint (Feb 18, 2008)

I swear by the martial art slippers for deads n squats, next best thing to nothing at all ....


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## Loz1466868022 (Oct 12, 2011)

I love the fact I can post vids as don't go to a gym this is better cos I cn ask from Leeds to Norwich and then some,legs are growing well really happy with depth as can't go any lower as thighs underneath hit calves


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## justheretosnoop (Jun 15, 2012)

Is this pretty much what the aim should be then?






(apols if anyone's talking sh*t in that vid, no sound on pc!)


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## crazycal1 (Sep 21, 2005)

thats pish dude, he just drops down, he doesnt sit back and he doesnt build any resistance up.

you must push first with your lower back, he`s just pushing thru with his feet n quads.

google mark ripptoe on you tube.

he`ll teach you how to sqquat properly.


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## justheretosnoop (Jun 15, 2012)

No sound at work so will have a listen later....


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## crazycal1 (Sep 21, 2005)

check his short tutorials for deads too bud..

i like this bloke, plain speaking and no bs..


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## Loz1466868022 (Oct 12, 2011)

phew all in all not to bad then so slow it down and make sure knees dont lock and keep time under tension longer sit back a little relax and enjoy, i tried using my flat pumps much better feel and can really feel the drive from the back of the heel now and with toes out , will be fun to see if i can keep the same volume with new form, all sorted cheers guys much appreciated and didnt get a kicking =-) thanks


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## Phenix (May 12, 2012)

any time bud just ask me if ur not sure u know my head is full of stuff i like fountain knowledge lol


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## Loz1466868022 (Oct 12, 2011)

you the man meeky


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## Phenix (May 12, 2012)

thanks mate i try my best it hard being the man but some one got to take the lead lol


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