# Aromasin as pct



## Herbal burt (Feb 8, 2013)

My cycle will be

4 weeks on and 6 weeks off 4 weeks on 6 weeks off for a year

5 cycles

testp and mastp

i won't be using clomid or nolvadex to recover as I don't want to many different drugs in my system

i will be running hcg and aromasin on cycle

i want to know if it is worth carrying the aromasin on for 2 weeks after my last jab to help recovery and tapering it off over the 2 weeks, I know it isn't going to be as good as nolvadex or clomid I am just asking if it will be better than nothing

appreciate input on this, as it is the only thing in my cycle I havnt decided on 100%


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## Herbal burt (Feb 8, 2013)

Just like to add, I have read that aromasin is the only AI that can be used in pct

@hotdog @hackskii


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## BigTrev (Mar 16, 2008)

No dont use an Ai when on pct as you could lower e2 levels far too low which can cause you grief.

Take the aromasin to end of cycle and use serms on pct.

You need to use clomid and nolva in pct as it will benefit you bigtime.

Also add vit D 5000ius ed and vit C 1000mgs ed when on pct

Clomid=100/50/50/50

Nolva=20/20/20/20

You need to revise your cycle plans also they are not right,,,4 weeks on is rubbish mate

Do the cycle for 8 to 10 weeks fully on and then off followed by pct then a few months clean etc


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## Herbal burt (Feb 8, 2013)

BigTrev said:


> No dont use an Ai when on pct as you could lower e2 levels far too low which can cause you grief.
> 
> Take the aromasin to end of cycle and use serms on pct.
> 
> ...


i am not going to use serms as I don't want any more different drugs from the ones I have mentioned, I have researched aromasin and it is recommended during pct, I'm on my phone at the moment, I will dig out what I found later and post it up


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## BigTrev (Mar 16, 2008)

Herbal burt said:


> i am not going to use serms as I don't want any more different drugs from the ones I have mentioned, I have researched aromasin and it is recommended during pct, I'm on my phone at the moment, I will dig out what I found later and post it up


Well what you have dug out is wrong,,,if your going to do a cycle you need to follow it up with serms and stick with the Ai while on the cycle.

Sorry but your methods of cycle and pct are not right.

Im lost why you dont want any serms in you when they are there to benefit you after the cycle

You will find with this 4 week on and 6 off for 5 times a year youll be back on here soon asking for help and the advice will be a proper pct consisting of serms.


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## WallsOfJericho (Apr 4, 2009)

I use clomid and aromasin during pct, worked great, aromasin boosts test more than nolva. Nolva lowers IGF-1 aswell which you dont really want during PCT

I did

Clomid: 100/75/75/50/50

Aromasin: 25/25/12.5/12.5

Recovered great, felt great.


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## Herbal burt (Feb 8, 2013)

WallsOfJericho said:


> I use clomid and aromasin during pct, worked great, aromasin boosts test more than nolva. Nolva lowers IGF-1 aswell which you dont really want during PCT
> 
> I did
> 
> ...


this is the sort of stuff I have read and not just on one occasion.

I just wanted to know if running the aromasin on its own for 2 weeks would be better than nothing, my cycles are only 4 weeks on and 6 weeks off then start again.


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## BigTrev (Mar 16, 2008)

WallsOfJericho said:


> I use clomid and aromasin during pct, worked great, aromasin boosts test more than nolva. Nolva lowers IGF-1 aswell which you dont really want during PCT
> 
> I did
> 
> ...


Geez if you read the op cycle plans alone you will also see its wrong

Aromasin is in general is not the way to do pct without serms

I think i have explained it fully and its correct


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## WallsOfJericho (Apr 4, 2009)

Herbal burt said:


> this is the sort of stuff I have read and not just on one occasion.
> 
> I just wanted to know if running the aromasin on its own for 2 weeks would be better than nothing, my cycles are only 4 weeks on and 6 weeks off then start again.


It wont be that great on its own


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## BigTrev (Mar 16, 2008)

Herbal burt said:


> this is the sort of stuff I have read and not just on one occasion.
> 
> I just wanted to know if running the aromasin on its own for 2 weeks would be better than nothing, my cycles are only 4 weeks on and 6 weeks off then start again.


Ok do it the way you want tho its all wrong including your cycles

Just cause you have read it on the net doesnt mean its right

Simple really,,do a cycle proper followed by a proper pct and rest.

And yes aromasin can be used into pct tho depending on the cycle


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## bulitz (Mar 9, 2011)

I strongly believe that an AI should be used as long as there is an aromatizing compound being administered. In this case Testosterone and HCG aromatize therefore using an AI until these meds clear and a few weeks longer is what I am recommending. There is some evidence that adding Nolva to an AI does not increase the effectiveness of estro control therefore Nolva has no real advantage alongside an AI unless one is experiencing gyno. Additionally Nolva has been shown to reduce IGF-1 and GH levels when used alone. This is not a big deal on cycle as testosterone increases IGF-1 in a dose dependant relationship. However off cycle this is a problem. PCT is a fragile time and lower IGF-1 and GH levels is not desirable. I am recommending an AI that is specific to men that can be used on cycle and during PCT. It is my conclusion that Aromasin is the obvious choice.

I recommend the following PCT protocol for esters like Cypionate and Enanthate;

While the aas ester is clearing : 2500iu HCG every third day for 2 weeks. (You may use less HCG if your testes are normal in size AND you have been using HCG on cycle, i.e. 1,000iu HCG etd.)

100/100/100/50 Clomid (50mg taken twice per day weeks 1-3)

20mg/20mg/20mg/10mg Aromasin (20mg daily for 3 weeks, 10mg daily in week 4)

3g Vit C every day split in 3 doses

10g creatine daily

The HCG is administered BEFORE the aas ester clears to increase the mass of the testes and bring back ITT levels. This will allow the testes to sustain output of testosterone sooner.

Clomid is universally accepted as THE testosterone recovery tool. It blocks estrogen from the HPTA and stimulates the production of GNRH then initiates the production of LH, which in turn signals the testis (if not atrophied) to produce testosterone.

Aromasin or a similar aromatase inhibitor is for testosterone recovery and it is used to keep the testosterone/estrogen balance in favor of testosterone. It is also helps to keep any additionally occurring estrogen from HCG low to none.

Cortisol is catabolic. It is the enemy of all anabolism and must be kept in check. While it is blocked when under the influence of AAS, it is free to attach to the Anabolic Receptors (AR) once the steroids leave. Due to this blockage Cortisol tends to accumulate and increase when on. A low level is desirable however since it is important for other vital functions such as control of inflammation. Balance is the key. Vitimin C keeps the exercise induced rise of Cortisol in check.

The use of Creatine has shown to increase ATP metabolism and cellular water storage among many other things. This is beneficial because it provides for heightened nutrient storage and a slight increase in anabolism as well as workout stamina.


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## BigTrev (Mar 16, 2008)

bulitz said:


> I strongly believe that an AI should be used as long as there is an aromatizing compound being administered. In this case Testosterone and HCG aromatize therefore using an AI until these meds clear and a few weeks longer is what I am recommending. There is some evidence that adding Nolva to an AI does not increase the effectiveness of estro control therefore Nolva has no real advantage alongside an AI unless one is experiencing gyno. Additionally Nolva has been shown to reduce IGF-1 and GH levels when used alone. This is not a big deal on cycle as testosterone increases IGF-1 in a dose dependant relationship. However off cycle this is a problem. PCT is a fragile time and lower IGF-1 and GH levels is not desirable. I am recommending an AI that is specific to men that can be used on cycle and during PCT. It is my conclusion that Aromasin is the obvious choice.
> 
> I recommend the following PCT protocol for esters like Cypionate and Enanthate;
> 
> ...


I like to keep mine simple and effective and no copy and pasting from journals..

Cycle between 8 to 14 weeks depending

Ai from day one of cycle to end,,,aromasin 12.5 eod or adex 0.5 eod

Hcg 1000ius EW from week 2 of cycle to end

Pct after consisting of nolva and clomid for 4 weeks

Clomid=100/50/50/50

Nolva=20/20/20/20

vit c 1000mg ed

vit D 5000ius ed

serotone if needed,,,helps moods etc

Zma before bedtime

JOB DONE and it works a treat everytime


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## Herbal burt (Feb 8, 2013)

BigTrev said:


> Ok do it the way you want tho its all wrong including your cycles
> 
> Just cause you have read it on the net doesnt mean its right
> 
> ...


Bro, I'm not disputing what you are saying, I am asking if using aromasin for pct would be better than nothing. Whats wrong with 4 weeks on 6 weeks off and start again with propoanate esters


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## BigTrev (Mar 16, 2008)

Herbal burt said:


> Bro, I'm not disputing what you are saying, I am asking if using aromasin for pct would be better than nothing. Whats wrong with 4 weeks on 6 weeks off and start again with propoanate esters


4 weeks on any cycle is rubbish mate even on short esters..

You need atleast 8 weeks on to reap the benefits of any cycle.

Plus your much better of using a serm on pct and if you can use both clomid and nolva as they work hand in hand.


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## Herbal burt (Feb 8, 2013)

BigTrev said:


> 4 weeks on any cycle is rubbish mate even on short esters..
> 
> You need atleast 8 weeks on to reap the benefits of any cycle.
> 
> Plus your much better of using a serm on pct and if you can use both clomid and nolva as they work hand in hand.


Bro, I'm not disputing what you are saying, I am asking if using aromasin for pct would be better than nothing.

My cycle would give gains though. I am not looking to be a pro just make some more gains than natty gains.


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## Herbal burt (Feb 8, 2013)

chilisi said:


> Are you blasting in the 4 weeks or just running a normal cycle?
> 
> Doesn't seem worth running a pct to me in that time frame.


exactly, my cycle is 1 year of 4 weeks on 6 weeks off so 5 cycles

Testp and mastp hcg and aromasin

no pct and don't see the point In adding more types of drugs, I realise that pct should be done with clomid nolvadex, I wanted to know if it would be beneficial to keep the aromasin going for 2 weeks after last jab or not


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## Hotdog147 (Oct 15, 2011)

Pct after a 4 week cycle with a 6 week break?! Wtf is that all about! Lol forget the PCT until the year is up and done with

If you're set on doing it this way just use the AI on cycle times and use nothing in the 6 weeks off time otherwise you're technically having no time of as meds are constantly being used

As silly as it may seem to some people, the way your cycle is planned is actually quite clever in terms of shutdown


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## Herbal burt (Feb 8, 2013)

Hotdog147 said:


> Pct after a 4 week cycle with a 6 week break?! Wtf is that all about! Lol forget the PCT until the year is up and done with
> 
> If you're set on doing it this way just use the AI on cycle times and use nothing in the 6 weeks off time otherwise you're technically having no time of as meds are constantly being used
> 
> As silly as it may seem to some people, the way you're cycle is planned is actually quite clever in terms of shutdown


Cheers bro, I am set on this cycle with no pct was the plan, I wasn't going to run the aromasin for the 6 weeks off, I was asking if it would be worth keeping it going for 2 weeks after my last jab and taper it down to nothing


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## Ahal84 (Jun 2, 2010)

If I was you I would use AI and HCG on cycle.


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## Herbal burt (Feb 8, 2013)

Hotdog147 said:


> Pct after a 4 week cycle with a 6 week break?! Wtf is that all about! Lol forget the PCT until the year is up and done with
> 
> If you're set on doing it this way just use the AI on cycle times and use nothing in the 6 weeks off time otherwise you're technically having no time of as meds are constantly being used
> 
> As silly as it may seem to some people, the way your cycle is planned is actually quite clever in terms of shutdown


the hcg I will use during cycle because I will be doing 5 mini cycles on the trot, otherwise I wouldn't bother


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## Hotdog147 (Oct 15, 2011)

Herbal burt said:


> the hcg I will use during cycle because I will be doing 5 mini cycles on the trot, otherwise I wouldn't bother


That's fine and I would do the same

I wouldn't bother with the AI though, what's your reasoning behind it?


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## Herbal burt (Feb 8, 2013)

Hotdog147 said:


> That's fine and I would do the same
> 
> I wouldn't bother with the AI though, what's your reasoning behind it?


If I wasn't using hcg I wouldn't I would try it without the aromasin, because the hcg will aromatise, but I am not sure, because I am using mast that is a mild ai, maybe it will be a bit trial and error, might start without hcg and aromasin and add in as I see fit


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## Hotdog147 (Oct 15, 2011)

Herbal burt said:


> If I wasn't using hcg I wouldn't I would try it without the aromasin, because the hcg will aromatise, but I am not sure, because I am using mast that is a mild ai, maybe it will be a bit trial and error, might start without hcg and aromasin and add in as I see fit


I worded that wrong mate, sorry, I wouldn't bother with the AI after the 4 weeks is up, don't run it in your 6 weeks off time is what I meant


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## D1amond (Mar 27, 2013)

My last cycle was test p and masteron for 10 weeks with 3 weeks

Tbol at the beginning. Gave great gains but anything less than 6 weeks would be too short for me - but I suppose it depends on the person.

I had real low test levels after because my pct got messed up.

I ran some aromasin 10mg/day and it sorted everything along with one 1500 shot of hcg. LH , FSH, total test all doubled .

I can provide the results too, and a study that explains aromasin lowers shbg therefore providing you with more free (unbound) test.

Just saying aromasin worked great for me and really helped recovery with the blood work to prove it.

Edit - hcg was first then two weeks of aromasin followed by blood test


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## Herbal burt (Feb 8, 2013)

Hotdog147 said:


> I worded that wrong mate, sorry, I wouldn't bother with the AI after the 4 weeks is up, don't run it in your 6 weeks off time is what I meant


Cheers bud, I am keeping a log, can't wait to start but I just finished that crappy 7 week cyp cycle which was my first and a waste of time, I should have researched first like I have for this one, but I had someone I thought knew what they were on about advising me. Start June now for this one


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## Herbal burt (Feb 8, 2013)

Not a complete waste of time actually, it taught me a lot


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## ba baracuss (Apr 26, 2004)

Odd cycle. Why have you decided on this?


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## fastcar_uk (Jan 30, 2013)

Got to agree with @BigTrev,

Cycle is rubbish mate, you won't be on long enough to reap the benefits unless your going to be doing very high doses?

You would be better blasting and cruising imo

What has made you want to cycle in this way? Also what quantities of test and mast are you thinking of running?


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## Herbal burt (Feb 8, 2013)

D1amond said:


> My last cycle was test p and masteron for 10 weeks with 3 weeks
> 
> Tbol at the beginning. Gave great gains but anything less than 6 weeks would be too short for me - but I suppose it depends on the person.
> 
> ...


So I think you are saying you used aromasin after your last test jab and not while you were on the test


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## D1amond (Mar 27, 2013)

Exactly right mate. My recovery was spot on after second blood test so it worked.

Keep the estrogen under control on cycle and do the clomid and aromasin combo someone posted earlier in the thread.


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## Herbal burt (Feb 8, 2013)

fastcar_uk said:


> Got to agree with @BigTrev,
> 
> Cycle is rubbish mate, you won't be on long enough to reap the benefits unless your going to be doing very high doses?
> 
> ...


It's propianate so should kick in after max 10 days and I am only looking to put 5 lbs on perhaps a stone after all 5 cycles 500testp 400mast p


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## Herbal burt (Feb 8, 2013)

ba baracuss said:


> Odd cycle. Why have you decided on this?


Look at my cycle log thread all info is in there on the last post I put up


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## Herbal burt (Feb 8, 2013)

D1amond said:


> Exactly right mate. My recovery was spot on after second blood test so it worked.
> 
> Keep the estrogen under control on cycle and do the clomid and aromasin combo someone posted earlier in the thread.


You didn't use clomid though, I just wanted to run the aromasin on for a couple weeks after last jab and taper it down to nothing over the 2 weeks, is this similar to what you done


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## Herbal burt (Feb 8, 2013)

D1amond said:


> My last cycle was test p and masteron for 10 weeks with 3 weeks
> 
> Tbol at the beginning. Gave great gains but anything less than 6 weeks would be too short for me - but I suppose it depends on the person.
> 
> ...


i can extend it for another couple weeks if required and do 4 cycles a year instead of 5


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## D1amond (Mar 27, 2013)

I would do a trial run, get ten weeks worth and see how you go.


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## nicj1990 (Oct 25, 2012)

BigTrev said:


> I like to keep mine simple and effective and no copy and pasting from journals..
> 
> Cycle between 8 to 14 weeks depending
> 
> ...


Simple and effectve! i would take BigTrevs kind advice


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## Zorrin (Sep 24, 2010)

WallsOfJericho said:


> I use clomid and aromasin during pct, worked great, aromasin boosts test more than nolva. Nolva lowers IGF-1 aswell which you dont really want during PCT
> 
> I did
> 
> ...


I also did the aromasin / clomid combo after my last cycle, which was 6 weeks of test prop / NPP, followed by 3 weeks of prop and mast prop.

Using 100mg of clomid and occasional aromasin, I felt right as rain and was getting early morning wood by the end of the first week (which isn't THAT common normally, I'm 45). Aromasin's a suicide AI, but fairly mild and controllable. The aromasin is dead, not just stunned and ready to wake up hungry when you discontinue the AI.


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## Zorrin (Sep 24, 2010)

Clomid is the SERM which really hides estrogen from your HPTA during PCT. Tamoxifen works better for preventing gyno in breast tissue, but if you use aromasin, its not a concern.

Aromasin lets a bit of estrogen through - its not like letro - so you don't get clicky knees or total libido loss. The bit that sneaks through is hidden from your hypothalmus by the clomid. I have loads and loads of liquid tamoxifen citrate, but I prefer it for on-cycle if I start to worry about itchy nips.

The way I've settled on now, is four 6-week cycles a year, with 1000iu of HCG the last 4 weeks, and the first week of PCT. I take an aromasin a few hours before the HCG shot, and when I feel a bit blobby. Then its just a week of 2 x 50mg clomid, and a week of 50mg clomid - and maybe 2 aromasin 10mg tablets a week. Its easy to get pharma aromasin, but I like prochem's. At 10mg, they're not too strong, and you get a big pot of 'em which lasts most of the year.

6 weeks is a nice cycle length, easy to recover from, and exactly two 10ml vials of prop in length (assuming 1ml eod, and a couple of days for it to leave your system). So I do a little cycle spring, summer, autumn and winter - like those oral-only cycles we remember fondly. But with a testosterone outboard motor.

I know the standard protocol is tamoxifen and clomid, but clomid / aromasin works really well. Better, I think. Aromasin and HCG are the best things to come out in the last few years.


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## Herbal burt (Feb 8, 2013)

chilisi said:


> You obviously haven't blasted properly or run a SHIC.


do you think 500mg test p and 400mg mastp is a good dose for a short cycle


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## Herbal burt (Feb 8, 2013)

Aromasin

Here is some great info on Aromasin i found to help people understand exactly how it works and why i am such a big fan of it enjoy

"Ahhhhh-romasin®! The king of anti-estrogens.

This post is kind of long, but take the time to read it, it's probably the most important thing you'll ever read if you're a BB'er (haha well maybe not, but there's some gold in here)

Exemestane, sold under the name Aromasin® by Pfizer, is an orally available suicidal aromatase inhibitor.

Because exemestane is steroidal this gives it a favorable estrogen suppression profile and confers a few really awesome benefits over other anti-estrogens both on paper and in real experience. Steroidal anti-estrogens have the benefit of being lipid-friendly and they all lower sex hormone binding globulin which increases the ratio of free to bound testosterone, which as many experienced BB'ers know can have a relatively profound positive impact on gains.

I think it is important to understand how drugs work in order to properly dose them, exemestane is a suicidal aromatase inhibitor, this means that it binds with aromatase enzymes and as it does so permanently disables the enzyme and destroys it. Hence the "suicidal" this chemical is like a kamikaze pilot out to destroy your aromatase enzymes which is what makes it so special.

Exemestane's half life in the male body is actually very short (~9 hours) and it is quickly eliminated, however, since as soon as it enters your bloodstream it quickly destroys 80-90% of the aromatase enzymes present in your body, it is effective in maintaining significant reductions in estrogen for up to 72 hours after a single 25mg dose. Estrogen levels only begin to rise again after your body has begun to make new aromatase enzymes to replace the ones destro by exemestane.

There is a great study on the pharmacokinetics of exemestane in men which found the following:

-24 hours after one 25mg dose estrogen levels are reduced by 70-80%

-72 hours later estrogen levels are still 40% below baseline even though the drug itself is almost completely eliminated

-120 hours after initial dose estrogen levels return to baseline (without rebounding)

this means that you can find the timing and dosage that works for you, i've seen some guys recommend between 25mg ed and 12.5mg e4d, and you can see why both are effective while providing different levels of estrogen suppression, and it is this flexibility that makes exemestane such a versatile Anti-E.

BUT WAIT, there's more. Aromasin is also a badass PCT drug! In males exemestane was found to increase total testosterone by ~60% after 10 days @ 25mg/day, however the same study found that while it increased total testosterone by 60% free testosterone was increased by over 100 percent! that's right, it DOUBLES bio-available testosterone (natty of course).

I can tell you this much, when I take Aromasin for PCT the results are dramatic, honestly my libido is never absent at any point during PCT and I absolutely feel great within a matter of days, and this is taking 12.5mg ed, the only side effect i notice is stiff joints and other stiff areas

the good:

-powerful AI capable of stopping gynecomastia completely on its own (for aromatizing compounds)

-has powerful bloat-reduction effects

-lowers sex hormone binding globulin , increasing free test & makes all other anabolic steroids more bio-available (read: more gains)

-can actually boost libido on and off cycle

-increases IGF-1

-NO adverse changes in lipid profiles for men (granted if you are using it on cycle this may be different)

-is NOT liver toxic

-no estrogen rebound

the bad:

-typical aromatase inhibitor issues here include stiff joints and possibly lethargy

-more difficult to come by than a-dex or letro

Appropriate uses for Exemestane:

#1) on cycle estrogen control - that's right, any and all estrogen related problems can and should be corrected with this compound, from gynecomastia to acne to bloat exemestane is a panacea, run it at 12.5mg e4d for gynecomastia protection and bloat control, or run it at 25mg ed for pre-contest or for gynecomastia sensitive individuals or moon face. the beauty of Aromasin is it's okay to use preventatively and not just as spot treatment for gynecomastia as it doesn't hurt gains nearly to the degree that other Anti-E's do, i'd still recommend using Anti-E's only if you need them, but if you must use one throughout your cycle, you couldn't pick a better compound to use.

#2) PCT. Aromasin is the premier PCT drug in my experience... honestly PCT is kind of fun with Aromasin (maybe that's a stretch) but it's a breeze compared to Clomid/nolva and significantly better than a-dex (more powerful and fewer sides) it works excellently with hcg and keeps the extra aromatization from the hcg injects at bay (you can even run higher dosages of hcg above 500iu/inject) and another bonus is since it's safe and comfortable to run for longer periods of time, you can stretch your PCT out to 6 or 8 weeks for suppressive cycles to make sure you get everything back in full working order

#3) gynecomastia reversal - in conjunction with a selective estrogen receptor modulator (raloxifene or Tamoxifen) and/or a dihydrotestosterone derived compound Aromasin can be effective in reversing/reducing existing gynecomastia

#4) off cycle testosterone boost - sometimes if i dont feel like running a cycle but still want a little extra kick i'll take 25mg EOD for 4-6 weeks, gains aren't improved all that greatly but significantly, but i do it more for the libido/mental effects anyways.

#5) hypogonadism - so you're getting older, you've been cycling since you were 21 and your natty test levels just never get back in the good range, but you don't wanna go HRT??? Aromasin will get you back in the game without having to take the plunge for HRT.

inappropriate uses for exemestane:

#1) giving your gf hot flashes"

*Based on facts from the Journal of Clinical Endocrinology and Metabolism..

Full Article here:

Pharmacokinetics and Dose Finding of a Potent Aromatase Inhibitor, Aromasin (Exemestane), in Young Males -- Mauras et al. 88 (12): 5951 -- Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism


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## Andrewgenic (Jul 5, 2010)

BigTrev said:


> I like to keep mine simple and effective and no copy and pasting from journals..
> 
> Cycle between 8 to 14 weeks depending
> 
> ...


Sorry to hijack here but I notice you mention serotone. Clomid really doesn't agree with me so I omitted it from last pct and have read since that it can block serotonin pathways, I assume serotone helps with this. My question is where can I get such a thing or is it present in other things like supps of somekind?


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## Herbal burt (Feb 8, 2013)

chilisi said:


> The test will give you some gains, depending on your diet and training in those 4 weeks. I'd make sure EVERYTHING is nailed. Have you considered using longer esters in conjunction with the short, so you will still be highly anabolic for part or of your time off it?
> 
> Masterone is very subtle IMO so not the best to run for shorter periods. But with are all different and act differently to gear use etc. give it a go, if you aren't happy with it, use test with something else, maybe add in an oral to get gains going earlier.
> 
> But if your happy with it, stick with it.


Or just add more test p perhaps, probably good to add more test to get the test other ratio up


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## BigTrev (Mar 16, 2008)

Andrewgenic said:


> Sorry to hijack here but I notice you mention serotone. Clomid really doesn't agree with me so I omitted it from last pct and have read since that it can block serotonin pathways, I assume serotone helps with this. My question is where can I get such a thing or is it present in other things like supps of somekind?


Hello mate,,here a link for them

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Higher-Nature-Serotone-5HTP-50mg-90-caps-/251235435411?pt=UK_Health_Beauty_Vitamins_Supplements&hash=item3a7ecc8393

If you cant take clomid take even the nolva and get Vit D 5000ius ed and vit C 1000mgs

Also take the zma before bedtime


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## BigTrev (Mar 16, 2008)

chilisi said:


> You obviously haven't blasted properly or run a SHIC.


And what sort of answer is that???

So your telling me doing 4 weeks on and 6 off is a good way of taking aas

even blasting for 4 weeks then stopping 6 is a load of rubbish

Might be ok for shutdown issues tho its a waste of money

If i was using fast esters noway would i be taking it for 4 weeks then back off 6

Any aas needs to be taken a minium of 8 weeks to see and feel the gains followed by a solid pct to keep most of the gains,,FACT


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## Zorrin (Sep 24, 2010)

BigTrev said:


> And what sort of answer is that???
> 
> So your telling me doing 4 weeks on and 6 off is a good way of taking aas
> 
> ...


I like short cycles, but I think 4 may be a little short too. Its good if you're just doing an oral cycle with no test, but if you're using test P, it makes sense to do it in multiples of 10ml vials (ie multiples of 6 weeks).

If its oral steroids and prop, I tend to do cycles of 6 weeks on / 7 weeks off (recovery on;ly takes 2 weeks at most).

With all-injectible cycles, 9 weeks is good -say, 6 weeks of test prop with NPP or tren ace, then 3 weeks of test prop and mast prop (to allow the dick-withering tren or nandrolone to get its love hangover out of the way before you go cold turkey).


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## Zorrin (Sep 24, 2010)

Herbal burt said:


> do you think 500mg test p and 400mg mastp is a good dose for a short cycle


Its a high dose of test P, and an unnecissarily high dose of mast P.

I usually add half a ml of mast P (50mg) in with my test P shot, and it acts like an injectible proviron which is also a little bit anabolic in its own right. It helps to melt the belly flab, and binds to SHBG, freeing up more test. I found small doses of mast P are as good as big ones. Even Ausbuilt, who uses massive doses of everything, only uses small doses of masteron. Its like gravy, which makes the other steroids better.

Masteron used to be considered an expensive luxury steroid, like anavar or primobolan, but its as cheap as test now. I like it.


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## BigTrev (Mar 16, 2008)

Zorrin said:


> I like short cycles, but I think 4 may be a little short too. Its good if you're just doing an oral cycle with no test, but if you're using test P, it makes sense to do it in multiples of 10ml vials (ie multiples of 6 weeks).
> 
> If its oral steroids and prop, I tend to do cycles of 6 weeks on / 7 weeks off (recovery on;ly takes 2 weeks at most).
> 
> With all-injectible cycles, 9 weeks is good -say, 6 weeks of test prop with NPP or tren ace, then 3 weeks of test prop and mast prop (to allow the dick-withering tren or nandrolone to get its love hangover out of the way before you go cold turkey).


Yes i would agree with you on that as i do Tbol for 4 to 5 weeks as a kickstart with my test tho like you say its a waste hitting any test for the 4 weeks then off 6,,,senseless to me and a waste of pinning


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## Andrewgenic (Jul 5, 2010)

BigTrev said:


> Hello mate,,here a link for them
> 
> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Higher-Nature-Serotone-5HTP-50mg-90-caps-/251235435411?pt=UK_Health_Beauty_Vitamins_Supplements&hash=item3a7ecc8393
> 
> ...


Cheers for the link Trev, will get that sorted


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## Herbal burt (Feb 8, 2013)

chilisi said:


> 8 weeks at least for gains on any cycle is rubbish. I don't agree with that at all. Proper blast and cruise is around 6-8 weeks of blasting with great gains. A SHIC is normally run for 4-6 weeks with fantastic gains. Even a short ester cycle for 6-8 can bring on great gains.
> 
> It's about using different esters and orals to achieve fast explosive gains. Bear in mind Enanthate esters ACTIVE half life for example is around 5-7 DAYS, so imagine 8 weeks of that at the right dose.
> 
> ...


As many of you already know I have had decent success with short cycles. I, along with some of my friends and clients, have had good results with cycles as short as 14 days long.

I no longer do cycles longer than 4-6 weeks as I am simply sick of the sides that build up after 4-6 weeks and I no longer feel comfortable walking around with a ****ty lipid profile for months on end.

WHAT QUALIFIES AS SHORT

"In my book" any cycle 6 weeks or less is a short cycle. Personally I now think that 4 weekers give the best gains to sides ratio.

You can do 2 weeks "on" 2-4 weeks "off"

You can do 4 weeks on and 4-6 weeks off

Or you can do 6 weeks on with 6-8 weeks off.

4 weeks on and 4 weeks off, year round, gives excellent results and you are only "on" half the year.

WHY DO THEM

#1.

If you are one of those bro's that does longer cycles, of say 10-12 weeks or more, and then wisely takes an equal amount of time off, and you are tired of loosing so much of your gains post cycle due to the length of the time off...the yoyo affect....then why not try doing shorter cycles with their corresponding shorter off times...... obviously you don't gain as much with a short cycle but then again you don't loose as much post cycle either due to the shorter off time.

Now... over say a year of doing 4 on 4-6 off you are gong to get very similar results as that seen from doing longer cycles of say 12 "on" 12-14 off but with less yo-yo affect and less sides. In fact most of my clients that do 4-6 week cycles tell me that they are actually getting better gains over a years use.

#2.

Do them to have less of a negative impact on ones lipid profile and to have less total time per year with a poor lipid profile.

Some of you may not know that androgens, taken at even newbie bodybuilding doses, alter everyones lipid profile. Everyone sees their hdl(good cholesterol) take a huge "nosedive" and most also see their ldl(bad cholesterol) go up to some degree but not to the same degree that hdl decreases. Generally hdl decreases 40-70% in as little as 2 weeks and ldl increases an average of 36% in 4 weeks. In my experience this reduction in hdl puts all bro's hdl WELL below the pathological minimum of 35. My ldl does not elevate above the pathological level of 160 but others see ldl's well above 160.

Lipid levels typically normalize within 3-10 weeks after discontinuation.

( details taken from article in Medscape)

Here are my "numbers" from the last long cycle of test 750mg/week and Tren 75mg/day. A powerful stack but not a huge dose of gear. It's been as bad with less powerful gear and lower doses. Blood work done after week 7.

Total cholesterol 181...not bad.

ldl 160...not very good

hdl 11.6! CRAPPY big time

Cholesterol to hdl ratio 15.7 to 1...ABSOLUTELY TERRIBLE! This is when my doc and I had a COW at the same time.

Triglycerides 50...good.

Here is my "baseline" without gear

Chol 152...great

ldl 106...great

hdl 45-48...good

tri 50..good

chol to hdl ratio....3.16 to 1.....good

.As far as I and my endochrinologist are concerned this lipid altering side of gear use is the single worst side of steroid use.

In as little as a week hdl decreases. Personally my brother-in-law and I really see a huge decrease after about 3 weeks "on' cycle. The last time I did a long cycle my total cholesterol to hdl ratio plummeted to 15 to 1!...My doc had a cow and so did I!!

According to current medical thought ones total cholesterol to hdl ratio is the single greatest LIPID indicator for assessing ones chances of developing heart disease. Men with low total cholesterols but with crappy hdl have gone on to develope heart disease WITHOUT ANY OTHER RISK FACTORS such as smoking, or diabetes.

Ideally you want an hdl of at least 40 and a ratio of 3.5 to 1 or better.

My mentor, the late great MIKE MENTZER died of heart disease at age 50 and I know for a fact that ARNOLD had more than valve surgery(I am an operating room nurse as well as a trainer)

#3.

Do them to decrease liver stress.

Generally long cycles with non 17aa roids are not that hard on the liver but sometimes one can get into trouble. The short cycle allows for less total stress on the liver and the frequent "off" times allows the liver to regenerate very well.

Generally a healthy liver can take pretty big "hits" for short periods of time without any problem ...it is long term stress that cause liver damage(as seen with elevated GGT enzyme levels)

#4.

Do them if you want to "tone down" your use of steroids.

#5.

Do them if you do NOT want to use HCG during a cycle to prevent testicular atrophy. HPTA shut down will be complete in as little as a week "on" but testicualr atrophy is minimal due to the short length of this shut down. This then allows for better HPTA recovery post cycle.

It is small testes that makes HPTA recovery slow because GnRH from the hypothalamus and LH from the pituitary normally rebound pretty rapidly.

* There will be some testicular shrinkage in any cycle so if you do 4 "on" 4 "off" for several cycles in a row then it would be a good idea to use hcg at 500iu's every 3rd day while "on" to prevent testicular atrophy...the 4 weeks "off" may not be enough time to allow for complete testicular recovery and over the span of several cycles this may impact your HPTA recovery.

You certainly can use hcg while on any short cycle to prevent any testicular shrinkage if you like but it really isn't necessary.

#6.

Do them if you do not want to see much in the way of water retention and do not want to use an estrogen inhibitor or an ace inhibitor(diuretic)

#7.

Do them if you get high blood pressure and do not wish to use the above mentioned ancillaries.

#8. Do them if you are sick of androgenic sides such as ance, prostate hypertrophy and hair loss(if prone to hair loss) etc etc.

Androgen sides come on for two reason...dose used and especially length of time "on". I do not get acne until after 4 weeks on and then I get hammered.....and I hate it.

#9.

Do them if you are tired of walking around with high estrogen levels for months on end and do not wish to or cannot afford to use an estrogen inhibitor. High estrogen levels are NOT good for the prostate at all!

You certainly can use estrogen inhibitors if you like if you want to keep estrogen levels down and experience very little water retention.

WHY NOT TO DO THEM

Obviously if you compete at a high level then short cycles are probably not the best for you, BUT I think they are the best way to use steroids for the vast majority of bro's.

Top competitors need to be "on" either all the time or most of the time....thats unfortunate but usually necessary in order to get freaky huge which is now needed to win big.

WHAT TO EXPECT

If one is not yet at ones natural maximum level of muscular developement then very good gains can be seen of up to 15 pounds and 10 pounds kept after a 4 weeker...as long as you train correctly as a natural post cycle.

If one is off gear and has dropped to ones natural max then a short cycle can add up to 10 pounds. If you take no more than 6 weeks off after each four weeker you will not loose much...then in each successive cycle you can still gain but the gains will be smaller the further you get from your natural max.

Those that are off cycle and have not yet shrunk down to their natural max can still gain well with successive short cycles but don't expect to win at the national level.

One of the things I like about short cycles is the short time "off" between cycles.......muscular atrophy is minimal during the off time and you are allowing for frequent bodily normalization after minimal time "on". LESS SIDES IN GENERAL, LESS TIME WITH A ****TY LIPID PROFILE and LESS MUSCLE LOSS POST CYCLE.

NOTE: You cannot get "freaky big" in this way...that takes very big doses and spending most of the year, for years on end, on steroids as well as GH and slin, and that my freinds is simply not a good idea unless you plan to make your living as a bodybuilder.

Getting pretty darn big in small steps is a safer way to use gear IMHO...and it messes less with one head too. Some guys really get depressed during "off" times of 12 or more weeks waiting to start their next cycle.

GEAR CHOICE and RATIONAL

The idea behind short cycles is to "get in" quick, hit the androgen receptors hard, get some gains, and then get the hell out as fast as possible so as to minimize sides. So with this in mind one should only use orals and rapid acting/clearing injectables. The limited time "on' simply doesn't justify the use of the "slower" esterfied injectables like deca etc. Also, these same roids take too long to clear the system and that too goes against the philosophy of short cycles.

The gear choosen should be powerful for best results and doses need to be decent as well in order to get the most from the short time on.

You can use mild gear like anavar but your results will be reduced.

BEST Gear

d-bol

test prop Tren anadrol

BEST stacks.

Personally I think d-bol/tren cannot be beat. There is only one roid that is better than testosterone, in the short run, IMHO and that is d-bol...too bad it's 17aa.

Test prop/tren

Test prop/tren/winny

Test prop/anadrol

Test prop/d-bol

STACKS AND DOSE EXAMPLES

I like Tren and I like d-bol and especially for a shorty. YES NEWBIE you can use these strong androgens and NO Tren is not hard on the kidneys(myth).

Some guys think I am nuts for recommending Tren for a first cycle and they say it is too harsh.... but most of the same bro's will recommend a long cycle of test/d-bol for a newbie and I can assure you that a long cycle of test/d-bol is going to give you more sides than a shorty with Tren and d-bol. Bro's test is just as "harsh" as Tren and it causes a good deal of water retention, with resultant increase in BP(bad in some bro's) unless you use an estrogen inhibitor....and **** test/d-bol stacks are WAY "harsher" than Tren.

The only issue with Tren is the frequent injecting required.....but I know some of you newbies have been researching for a long time and are fine with the idea of frequent injections(they aren't that bad!)

Novice... TREN/D-BOL.... Tren 50mg/day for 4 weeks and d-bol 30mg/day in 4 divided doses per day(one right before bed) for 4 weeks.

Two days after last Tren do Clomid at 200-300mg on day one in divided doses and then 50-100mg/day for a week and then 50mg a day for 3 more weeks. OR...Nolva at 80mg on day one in divided doses followed by 40mg/day for a week and then 20mg/day for 3 more weeks.

Have nolva or Clomid on hand for gyno protection.

More advanced...200 of Tren on day one as a front load to get Tren levels up pronto and then 75mg/day for 4 weeks. D-bol 50mg/day in 4 divided doses for 4 weeks. SERMS as above

Novice...TEST PROP/TREN

Test prop 75mg/day for 4 weeks and Tren 50mg/day for 4 weeks. Serms as above. nolva on hand.

more advanced.....Test prop 300mg on day one and then 100-200mg/day for 4 weeks. Tren 75mg/day. An estrogen inhibitor might be needed.

MEGA STACK... ADVANCED

Test prop 300mg on day one and then 100mg /day for 4 weeks, d-bol 50mg/day and Tren 75mg/day......LOOK THE HELL OUT! Have the nolva on the tip of your tongue he he he ...arimidex at 1-1.5mg/day would be wise even for the short 4 week period.

SINGLE STEROIDS

D-bol really is an unreal roid and as I said it is even better than test in the short run IMHO.

One can get very nice results from d-bol alone at 50mg/day for 4-6 weeks. Don't take it for longer than 6 weeks though as it is a 17aa roid and as such is somewhat hard on the liver.

D-bol for 6 weeks at a time was a favorite cycle length in the old days and produced excellent gains.

Test prop can be run all by itself at 75-200mg/day with great results too.

OKAY.....BUT YOU SAY YOU ONLY HAVE SUST, EQ, CYP etc

Long chain esterfied roids and tests are not the best choice for the shorty, as explained above, but they can work pretty well IF you do pretty large front loads. FRONT LOADS simply help to get blood hormone levels up more quickly.

ie: Intermediate user doing test cyp ...do a FRONT LOAD of at least 800mg on day one...then 2 days latter do 400mg and then every 4h day do another 400.

400 every 4th day is equal to 700mg per week.

Run the cyp for 4-6 weeks and you'll get some decent gains from it.

* Best to use Tren with this cycle....or d-bol (1 mg of arimidex/day if using d-bol and test)

* After the last shot of cyp you are going to have to wait for a couple weeks for androgen levels to drop before you start PCT and this is akin to lengthening the cycle.

BLOOD LIPIDS

You might want to consider taking the worlds best hdl improver while "on" cycle...NIACIN!

Nothing even comes close to niacins hdl incresing powers. Personally it has not helped my hdl while "on' nor has it helped my brother-in-laws, but you might see some level of improvement(don't expect a great improvement though since androgens do such a great job of messing with hepatic lipaze)

Nicain comes in three forms...regular, extended release(Niaspan) and non flush niacin. Niaspan is the best and works well at 1500mg/day taken once daily. Regular niacin works well at 600-1000mg three times a day but it gives a nasty ichy flush for a while after taking each pill.

Non flush works fairly well at 2-3 grams a day but not as good as the others IMHO.

Use nicain while "off" for sure as it will rapidly improve your ****ty hdl level.

NOTE*** niacin can be hard on the liver so never use it with acutane which is hard on the liver. You really should have liver panels done if you use niacin for more than 6 weeks and be followed by a doctor(Swale would be good) especially if you are on steroids as well.

ENTER POLICOSANOL

DrVeejay11(real doctor) introduced me to another great lipid protector/improver and it too raises hdl BUT BONUS...it lowers ldl too.. and it's not liver toxic at all so you could use this stuff all the time with no worries.

Do a search at www.medscape.com for abstracts on POLICOSANOL.

I recommed that all be followed by a doctor while on steroids or at the very least educate yourself about the sides of steroid use and how to avoid the pitfalls by following yourself with blood work at labs that do not require a docs script(especially liver panels... and psa for us older guys) And guys at a minimum also watch your blood pressure while on gear at your local drug store monitoring station....keep the BP under 140 over 90 if you can especailly if you are "on" for months on end.

source - http://www.steroidology.com/forum


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## Herbal burt (Feb 8, 2013)

I fit into the not trying to break any records category

I can extend to 6 weeks if gains are not good


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## BigTrev (Mar 16, 2008)

chilisi said:


> 8 weeks at least for gains on any cycle is rubbish. I don't agree with that at all. Proper blast and cruise is around 6-8 weeks of blasting with great gains. A SHIC is normally run for 4-6 weeks with fantastic gains. Even a short ester cycle for 6-8 can bring on great gains.
> 
> It's about using different esters and orals to achieve fast explosive gains. Bear in mind Enanthate esters ACTIVE half life for example is around 5-7 DAYS, so imagine 8 weeks of that at the right dose.
> 
> ...


Its far from being rubbish,,,hes not even blasting and cruising hes doing it for 4 weeks then stopping 6 weeks and back on 4 etc etc.

Thats not a blast and cruise,,a different story altogether

And yes taking aas for just 4 weeks is complete rubbish extending it to 8 weeks will benefit greatly.


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## BigTrev (Mar 16, 2008)

chilisi said:


> I agree that his cycle isn't ideal. I'm on about what you said referring to that you need at least 8 weeks, to see gains from any cycle. That just isn't the case at all.


It is unless your blasting and cruising mate.

4 weeks wont give you very good gains at all,,,and the very small amount you make will soon go again especially stopping for 6 then back on.

A good solid cycle with a good solid pct is the key for getting the desired gains and keepiing most


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## Herbal burt (Feb 8, 2013)

BigTrev said:


> Its far from being rubbish,,,hes not even blasting and cruising hes doing it for 4 weeks then stopping 6 weeks and back on 4 etc etc.
> 
> Thats not a blast and cruise,,a different story altogether
> 
> And yes taking aas for just 4 weeks is complete rubbish extending it to 8 weeks will benefit greatly.


heyup trev, did you see the copy about the short cycles above your post


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## BigTrev (Mar 16, 2008)

Herbal burt said:


> heyup trev, did you see the copy about the short cycles above your post


Yeah seen it tho its not how i would do it nor does it mean its the best way to take aas

Go for it if its what you want tho for me i will be doing no less than 8 weeks to get my moneys worth and best possible gain and to keep them


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## BigTrev (Mar 16, 2008)

chilisi said:


> Muscle mass is muscle, wether it takes you 4 weeks to grow it or 10 weeks. So you won't lose it faster if you gain it quicker?
> 
> I've run many cycles under 8 weeks and I've made great gains. You don't need to stay on for months at a time to build muscle mass.
> 
> 4 weeks of his chosen cycle won't give you massive gains, but one with the right meds and doses will.


Firstly i never said you need to be on months

Secondly i did say it was important to use the meds to for gains and i said little gains on a 4 week cycle didnt i?

Im simply saying to get the most from your cycle 8 weeks followed by a good pct is much better and thats fact


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## Herbal burt (Feb 8, 2013)

BigTrev said:


> Firstly i never said you need to be on months
> 
> Secondly i did say it was important to use the meds to for gains and i said little gains on a 4 week cycle didnt i?
> 
> Im simply saying to get the most from your cycle 8 weeks followed by a good pct is much better and thats fact


Not saying your wrong trev, and definately not for someone who has been on aas for years, at the moment I am just looking to put on between a stone and two stone in a year, and it is sort of my first cycle so gains should be good and get in and out means I can put full effort into it and then have a rest from the constant eating and start again


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## BigTrev (Mar 16, 2008)

Herbal burt said:


> Not saying your wrong trev, and definately not for someone who has been on aas for years, at the moment I am just looking to put on between a stone and two stone in a year, and it is sort of my first cycle so gains should be good and get in and out means I can put full effort into it and then have a rest from the constant eating and start again


What i would like to say is im in noway in a mood about this infact i think its a great debate and thats what the forum is for

I respect you and chilisi views on this tho i just much rather hit a cycle longer with serms for pct.

Good luck with whatever cycle you decide mate and plan it out before hand like you are doing

I could be stuck in my old ways to tho i do prefer doing it a little longer than 4 weeks


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## Herbal burt (Feb 8, 2013)

@chilisi @BigTrev

I think this forum is great, one thing I think it is missing though is a sticky section with all different cycles in and another section with descriptions of all the different aas, ai and serms

This is something I had to go to other forums and sites for


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## Mars (Aug 25, 2007)

Herbal burt said:


> @chilisi @BigTrev
> 
> I think this forum is great, one thing I think it is missing though is a sticky section with all different cycles in and another section with descriptions of all the different aas, ai and serms
> 
> This is something I had to go to other forums and sites for


How would a sticky with god knows how many different cycles in it help anyone? if you learn just the fundamentals of AAS and their mechanism of action before you start taking them you would know what stacks well with what.

And to answer your initial question, an AI like aromasin, or adex for that matter should be used on cycle for estrogen management and not in PCT.


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## Herbal burt (Feb 8, 2013)

Mars said:


> How would a sticky with god knows how many different cycles in it help anyone? if you learn just the fundamentals of AAS and their mechanism of action before you start taking them you would know what stacks well with what.
> 
> And to answer your initial question, an AI like aromasin, or adex for that matter should be used on cycle for estrogen management and not in PCT.


So can I learn that on this site then


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## crazypaver1 (Nov 23, 2008)

OP if you run for 8weeks on, 8weeks off you will gain alot better.


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## BigTrev (Mar 16, 2008)

chilisi said:


> Yes of course, 4 weeks of his cycle won't make him mr Olympia. What didn't make sense to me, is the part I highlighted:
> 
> *4 weeks on any cycle is rubbish mate even on short esters.*.
> 
> ...


I stand by both of them statements still unless your on a 4 week blast then cruising

If your doing 4 weeks on then off its total rubbish

We can agree to disagree on this then.


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## Arc (Jan 17, 2013)

chilisi said:


> I'm not going to agree with needing at least 8 weeks to reap the benefits of a cycle at all.
> 
> 4 weeks, you can still make good gains with the right doses and meds.
> 
> Try a shorter cycle sometime, you might change your mind.


set us an example of 4 weeks bulk cycle


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## Mars (Aug 25, 2007)

Herbal burt said:


> So can I learn that on this site then


Yes of course, there also a massive sticky i posted,(steroids, everything you ever wanted to know) why not start there or just read the basics of what AAS are and how they work etc, the internet is font of knowledge if you hadn't noticed :lol: .


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## Herbal burt (Feb 8, 2013)

Had a day to ponder over this and probably would be better for me to run 5 weeks on 6 weeks off instead of 4 on 6 weeks off

Because I have 20ml vial of testp and 20ml vial of mast p

1-5 .... mon,wed,fri,sun 1ml/100mg testp 100mg mastp

I did think I should probably be doing 75mg of mastp each time but I will have some left at the end so I might as well use it

Will this cause any sides having the mast and test dose the same


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## Guest (Apr 14, 2013)

The two most recognised ways of doing short cycles are Bill Robert's 2 on 4 off (which he suggests will not cause full shutdown due to timescales being too short so several can be repeated) or Paul Borreson's SHIC cycles. If you run several in a row and make a few lbs gain per each the net gains should be similar without the issue of being heavily shut down and losing gains as you recover natural test production.

What is your reasoning for the shorter cycles as opposed to doing a longer one followed by full PCT?


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## SirStrokeUrEgo (Sep 27, 2012)

Don't see why you'd waste your money and time on this rather than going on blasting and cruising/Shic and a full pct. Not having a go


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## Herbal burt (Feb 8, 2013)

chilisi said:


> I'm sure I suggested this earlier. Using long esters along side the short, will keep you anabolic for longer, giving you more time "on cycle" without having to take anything, leaving you without synthetic test for less time.


Yeah you did mate, problem is I ain't got any testc or teste and no more funds, spent it on testp and mastp

So need to make the most outa that


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## Thunder99 (Jul 25, 2013)

Using Aromsin only as PCT is the way forward.

Nolva/ clomid are old outdated rubbish with horrible side effects and it amazes me that people still use them over aromasin.

aromasin has been shown to raise natural test production by over 60% whilst inhibiting aromatize enzyme. It is also much safe to use for longer periods than nolva/clomid thus meaning you can run a longer pct.

get with the future guys, do some research and drop that outdated **** you are using seriously.

http://jcem.endojournals.org/content/88/12/5951.full?maxtoshow=&HITS=10&hits=10&RESULTFORMAT=1&andorexacttitle=and&andorexacttitleabs=and&fulltext=growth+hormone+igf+1+male+breast&andorexactfulltext=and&searchid=1&FIRSTINDEX=30&sortspec=relevance&resourcetype=HWCIT

Read this.


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## Burty5 (Nov 1, 2014)

BigTrev said:


> 4 weeks on any cycle is rubbish mate even on short esters..
> 
> You need atleast 8 weeks on to reap the benefits of any cycle.
> 
> Plus your much better of using a serm on pct and if you can use both clomid and nolva as they work hand in hand.


This a question not a statement as I am confused about AI

I thought the point of Nolva/adex/ aromasin was to prevent test from aromatase in to E Nolva/ adex is a blocker and aromasin is a suicide AI so if use aromasin you wont need nolva/adex pct as there wont be a an E rebound when you finish pct plus why would you use a pct to kick start your nuts if you are going to do another cycle after 6 weeks and shut them down again Surely it takes longer than 6 weeks to get them started again.

Is the point to take 3 months off and use hcg as a bridge between cycles so you don't lose too much of what you gained

sorry about jumping this blog but there is so much information out there I'm lost amongst it all

regards Karl


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## Sharpz (Oct 1, 2012)

BigTrev said:


> 4 weeks on any cycle is rubbish mate even on short esters..
> 
> You need atleast 8 weeks on to reap the benefits of any cycle.
> 
> Plus your much better of using a serm on pct and if you can use both clomid and nolva as they work hand in hand.


 Not true at all


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## seanpaul (Mar 8, 2016)

Herbal burt said:


> My cycle will be
> 
> 4 weeks on and 6 weeks off 4 weeks on 6 weeks off for a year
> 
> ...


 Hey,

I am soon going to be doing a course of test cypo 250 at 2ml a week for about 8 weeks, I am 28 done my my first course when I was like 18. I done 2 courses of oxy's. After that when I was 20 tried suss 250 1ml a week for about 8 weeks never done any pct stupidly as I wasn't all that clued up on how important it is. I later got gyno which ****ed me up I went and had the opp and I have to go back again as the surgent didn't remove enough of the glad. i have since done a course of anavar, and winstrol done about 3 courses of winstrol and the anavar before that this is in the past 2 years.

Any way guys I have been very daft to have never done a pct and my sex drive seams to be low now to, can any one give me some advice on which AI's and pct I should get to do the course am soon going to do which is the test cypo 250 at 2ml a week for 8 weeks and winstrol for the last 4 weeks???

Any advise is greatly appreciated.

Cheers


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