# Enough carbs to add some size n keep lean in my diet



## s3_abv (Feb 10, 2010)

Started a test/tren cycle yesterday and have added some carbs to my cutting diet.

Having 2ml test e p/w, 2ml tri tren p/w for 10 week.

Is there enough carbs ect...to add some size while keeping my low bodyfat 10-11%

Breakfast

30g whey

100g oats

40g blueberry

200ml milk

100g yog

flaxseeds/few nuts

or

30g whey

4 scrambled egg

50ml milk

2 wm toast

50g salmon

Moring break

130g tuna

50g pasta

salad/onion/tomato

1 tbs evoo

few nuts

boiled egg

10g parmasam

orange

Dinner

150g chicken/mince/turkey

medium sweet potato

half red pepper

half onion

half courgette

boiled egg

1tbs evoo

apple

Pre-workout

30g whey

50g nuts

banana

post

30g whey

50g dextose

tea

150g chicken/turkey/mince

broccli/pepper/green beans

Bed snack

200ml milk

30g whey

150g cottage

2 eggs

Thats it for diet. I tend to have a takeaway fri or sat and have a few more carbs over sat, then start clean/ fresh on sunday.

What you reckon guys?


----------



## Dr (Aug 7, 2009)

Very nice. I follow very similar diet. I would replace normal milk with lactose free milk as lactose is very nasty carb source (if you're not doing it already). I personally don't regularly eat pasta either, glycemic index is too high for keeping it lean. Replace nuts with avocado and 10-15 capsules of fish oil per day and I reckon you are ready to go.


----------



## gettinghuge (Dec 6, 2010)

I hear from a number of people that when you come off a bulking cycle and start heading towards PCT, you should start to taper off your carbs.

Is there any sense in this?


----------



## s3_abv (Feb 10, 2010)

Is lactose that bad??

I have 4 fish oils per day, should i really take 8-10!

thanks for the input mate.


----------



## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

Lactose is fine, it's primarily processed by the liver so will fill up hepatic glycogen first. It's your total cals that will determine fat loss / gain, even on cycle. You should be able to get away with more carbs than normal however due to increased glycogen storage due to the gear.

Fish Oil: Aim for 3g TOTAL EPA/DHA, this is the dose that has been researched to provide the health benefits including increased insulin sensitivity and fat burning etc. 3g of EPA / DHA is 10 x standard strength fish oil caps (1000mg total and 180 EPA / 120 DHA), may be less if you have a higher potency cap.

Personally (as I've been supping with fish oil for years) I take 5 caps per day.


----------



## Dr (Aug 7, 2009)

s3_abv said:


> Is lactose that bad??
> 
> I have 4 fish oils per day, should i really take 8-10!
> 
> thanks for the input mate.


the way your body process lactose it is almost certain it will be allocated to fat storage. Let me tell you short story. The guy preparing for the show, looking lean and crisp dry 10 days out. He went out with us and didn't want to skip his meal so he had massive whey protein shake with milk (bayman his calories were bang on). Next day woke up looking smooth like baby's ass, I kid you not. Since then I dismiss lactose having any benefit when it comes being lean. But don't take my word for it ask any top rank competitor if they take milk products when cutting up.

fish oil is healthy and all when taking few caps a day. But what I am suggesting is to replace some of the calories with it, so it is used for muscle repair and doesn't spill out to fat. The whole beauty about fish oil is that it is perfect calories if you want to grow and keep it lean. There was an article in MD about low carbs and growing. Diet had like 25 caps 4 times a day. I mean you can do an experiment. day after your workout pop 15 in the morning and 15 in the afternoon. If you don't look fuller and more vascular then maybe it's not for you and go back using it as healthy supplement.


----------



## s3_abv (Feb 10, 2010)

Cheers guys for the advice, might just buy some fish oil instead of caps.


----------



## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

Dr. said:


> the way your body process lactose it is almost certain it will be allocated to fat storage. Let me tell you short story. The guy preparing for the show, looking lean and crisp dry 10 days out. He went out with us and didn't want to skip his meal so he had massive whey protein shake with milk (bayman his calories were bang on). Next day woke up looking smooth like baby's ass, I kid you not. Since then I dismiss lactose having any benefit when it comes being lean. But don't take my word for it ask any top rank competitor if they take milk products when cutting up.


Scientific! So a guy in prep for a show (who is probably glycogen depleted anyway) smoothed out because of carbs, wow big deal. Carbs get stored as glycogen, more glycogen = more water retention. Fact is that the above anecdote has little to do with whether you can get lean or not whilst consuming milk.


----------



## Bish83 (Nov 18, 2009)

If the guy was carb depleted then would it really be the carbs causing the smoothing affect or just the sodium in the milk?

The body reacts differently to alot of things be it age, genetic pre-disposition, body fat. Nothing like going into a discussion with an open mind, theres plenty of scientific studies on pubmed with anecdotal results so why dis-regard this one.


----------



## s3_abv (Feb 10, 2010)

Just bought some cod liver oil in a bottle. Bayman has given a idea on how much to take but when should i take it?

Morning/night

Replace pre-workout nuts with it???

Advice please


----------



## Dr (Aug 7, 2009)

@bayman milk is for babies. @s3_abv cod liver oil is not the same as fish oil, it doesn't have as much EPA and DHA. Get extra strength fish oil caps and pop 15 2Xday(morning and 3h pre-workout) to see if it gets you anywhere.


----------



## s3_abv (Feb 10, 2010)

I got seven seas pure cod liver which has 828EPA and 736DHA per 10ml serving. Having 10ml first thing, 10ml at 10.00 and 10ml at night to replace some fats in my diet.

What you think dr?


----------



## Dr (Aug 7, 2009)

That is not strong enough. its only ~8% of EPA and ~7% DHA. You need 18%EPA and 12%DHA to get a good bang for your buck. Forget cod liver oil, get pure fish oil. Go on ebay and get poorly packaged bulk fish oil caps, they are chip as dirt. I buy 900 of these in one go.


----------



## hsmann87 (Jun 22, 2010)

do you really need test AND tren?

judging from your size you havent exactly got a ton of cycles under your belt

why not just some test and a decent diet (which u seem to have sorted)


----------



## LittleChris (Jan 17, 2009)

hsmann87 said:


> do you really need test AND tren?
> 
> judging from your size you havent exactly got a ton of cycles under your belt
> 
> why not just some test and a decent diet (which u seem to have sorted)


If you don't have anything helpful to add probably best not to post.


----------



## hsmann87 (Jun 22, 2010)

LittleChris said:


> If you don't have anything helpful to add probably best not to post.


 :confused1:


----------



## s3_abv (Feb 10, 2010)

Lol. This is my third cycle mate. Used tren before and wanted to try it again at a higher dose.

Dr, i have bought omega 3 liquid now epa dha at 2300. Using 15ml morning, 15ml with a meal, 15ml at night. So getting around 39g fat and 350 cal from the oil.

That too much mate?

Since doing it i do look fuller, could be the carb increase tho......


----------



## scouse2010 (Mar 17, 2010)

op ho big are you how many cals are you needing ?Just wanting to know as I am still trying to look for sample diets for around 3000cals


----------



## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

45ml of fish oil per day is wasting your money.


----------



## scouse2010 (Mar 17, 2010)

why is he


----------



## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

scouse2010 said:


> why is he


Well because the benefits of the fish oil can be seen at a much lower dose, 15ml per day would be more than ample. In fact overdosing on O3 supps can be counter productive and have negative health implications such as blood thinning. Plus there are much cheaper fat sources out there if he's using it for that.

More does not equal better.


----------



## scouse2010 (Mar 17, 2010)

Ive read of people seeing great benefits when they take up to 10g of fishoils.Thats Just what I have read


----------



## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

scouse2010 said:


> Ive read of people seeing great benefits when they take up to 10g of fishoils.Thats Just what I have read


10g is a little different to the 45g curretly being downed by the OP.

I take on average about 5-10g of fish oil per day myself.


----------



## scouse2010 (Mar 17, 2010)

I didnt realize it was 45g as you just wrote 45ml of fish oil a day


----------



## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

scouse2010 said:


> I didnt realize it was 45g as you just wrote 45ml of fish oil a day


45ml = 45g


----------



## kernowgee (Jan 30, 2011)

In order to keep your body in a state of anabolic growth your body needs to constantly be supplied with amino acids throughout the day so your body can maintain and build muscle from them.

This becomes a problem when its time for you to go to bed. You are in effect fasting your body for eight hours giving it no supply of amino acids. The result is another step back in your quest to gain muscle. And as you should know by now the goal of these supplement complexes is to keep you moving forward at a rapid pace. We use the principle of momentum to give us quick muscle gains.

In order to overcome this anti-catabolic fasting state, you need to give serious thought to your bedtime shake. If you are not taking one right now I hope you realize you are losing muscle instead of gaining it. The ingredients in this bedtime shake are: glutamine, protein (casein), and flaxseed oil.

These powders are mixed into a shake with a low carbohydrate. I like to mix them with milk and some strawberries or you could use an MRP. Glutamine's role is to preserve your muscle and raise your growth hormone while you sleep. It will work in conjunction with the protein to spare your muscle and give it a constant supply of amino acids. The type of protein I recommend here is very important. It is the casein type in particular because it provides a steady slower paced release of amino acids into the blood stream, much longer than whey. Whey produces a sharp rise in amino acids because of its high bioavailability.

Because whey has a high absorption rate it would be better to use it in your Big 3 hormonal cocktail. This will get the protein into your muscle much faster then casein would especially at a time when you need it.

The flaxseed oil provides essential fatty acids, which have been proven by scientific studies to keep your testosterone levels elevated.

The ingredients are mixed as follows according to lean body mass:

16 oz. Of skim milk

strawberries

5 grams of glutamine for every 100 lbs. of lean body mass.

20 grams of casein protein powder for every 100 lbs. of lean body mass*

1 table spoon of flaxseed oil for every 100 lbs. of lean body mass

An example of a bedtime shake for a 220 lb. person at 10% body fat is:

16 oz. Of skim milk

fruit

10 grams of glutamine

40 grams of casein protein

2 table spoons of flaxseed oil

Met-rx meal replacement can be used in place of the fruit and

protein. The original version of Met-rx is a good source of casein

protein.

This shake is to be taken 10-15 min before bedtime.


----------



## 2004mark (Oct 26, 2013)

/\ /\ /\

Seriously... is that just a cut and past job from a Met-rx advertorial.


----------



## Big Gunz (Jun 9, 2009)

^ LOL yes it is a cut and paste...http://aminoacid.foodsupplements-1.com/body-building-supplement/

It's near the bottom of the article.


----------



## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

What relevance does it have to this thread anyway too?

And there's a lot of myth right there in that article, pure supplement company marketing dross.


----------



## s3_abv (Feb 10, 2010)

bayman said:


> 45ml of fish oil per day is wasting your money.


Check my diet mate, im 11.3 stone since dieting and i'm having 2900 cal a day.

My whole diet is in the diet section.


----------



## s3_abv (Feb 10, 2010)

Bayman

There seems to be alot of people on here taking high doese of fish/cod oil to replace some of there fat intake. I'm having around 30-40g fat of fish oil per day, the rest of my total 110-120g comes from nuts/milk/olive/meat/eggs.

Going to see how it goes taking it first thing/mid-day/night.


----------



## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

s3_abv said:


> Bayman
> 
> There seems to be alot of people on here taking high doese of fish/cod oil to replace some of there fat intake. I'm having around 30-40g fat of fish oil per day, the rest of my total 110-120g comes from nuts/milk/olive/meat/eggs.
> 
> Going to see how it goes taking it first thing/mid-day/night.


Well there's a lot of people wasting their money then like I said.


----------



## Papa Lazarou (Jul 4, 2007)

IMO your diet is too high in carbs. I eat carbs in 1 in 2 meals and intra and post workout.


----------



## s3_abv (Feb 10, 2010)

Papa Lazarou said:


> IMO your diet is too high in carbs. I eat carbs in 1 in 2 meals and intra and post workout.


My carbs are around 210g per day non training. Around 280 on training days. I only eat carbs with 3 meals, i eat no main carbs (pasta/rice/bread/potato) after 1.00pm except from post work out where i have 50g dextrose.

I don't think my carbs are high imo.


----------



## s3_abv (Feb 10, 2010)

Papa Lazarou said:


> IMO your diet is too high in carbs. I eat carbs in 1 in 2 meals and intra and post workout.


Sorted lol.


----------



## scouse2010 (Mar 17, 2010)

not stealing the thread but I want to build muscle and keep bf% low (I am around 15-18%bf)and I am wanting to aim for around 2900 cals.I workout first thing in the morning so do you think I should just follow the same sort of diet and just have my carbs just before my workout and just after it then the rest of the day just protein and fruit and veg and fat ?


----------



## s3_abv (Feb 10, 2010)

I would sugest starting a thread mate with you stats.


----------



## Papa Lazarou (Jul 4, 2007)

s3_abv said:


> My carbs are around 210g per day non training. Around 280 on training days. I only eat carbs with 3 meals, i eat no main carbs (pasta/rice/bread/potato) after 1.00pm except from post work out where i have 50g dextrose.
> 
> I don't think my carbs are high imo.


I'm confused, YOU asked for opinions on your diet, I gave it. I don't understand why you are saying it is a matter of opinion. Of course it is, and thats what you asked for LOL 

I'm not having a go, just adding my take on your diet, that is all.


----------



## s3_abv (Feb 10, 2010)

Papa Lazarou said:


> I'm confused, YOU asked for opinions on your diet, I gave it. I don't understand why you are saying it is a matter of opinion. Of course it is, and thats what you asked for LOL
> 
> I'm not having a go, just adding my take on your diet, that is all.


Sorry mate that quote wasnt for you about it being a matter of opinion! Not sure how it did that?

So you think my carbs are too high to keep a lean bulk?

What sort of diet are you using at the moment, you look good in the avatar!


----------



## Dr (Aug 7, 2009)

Hey s3, how's it cracking? I think having complex carbs o 2Xday only (morning and after workout) is the best way to go. And if you don't workout don't have any carbs for that meal. This will lower your carbs and still keep the your energy for workouts. To me, carbs = glycogen energy for workouts. Did you see any difference in replacing some of the calories with the fish oil? I see bayman still doesn't get it and saving his cash to bulk up on milk.


----------



## s3_abv (Feb 10, 2010)

Good thanks mate!

I think the fish has made me more vascular for sure, my skin seems really good and i don't seem to be getting spots! So yeah seems good for me mate.

I'm basically having the first three meals with around 40g carbs per meal then no main source of carbs after 4, except post workout i'm having 500ml milk then followed by a meal. Im leaning out loads since changing the diet. I have also gained 6lbs too!


----------



## s3_abv (Feb 10, 2010)

Dr. i train at about 5ish at night so do you think i will benifit having carbs after a workout? Don't want to be taking them late at night.

I have also put my training to mon/wed/fri weights off days i'm doing light cardio for 15-20min. Sat n sunday i'm doing fasted bike/run first thing. How does that sound?


----------



## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

Dr. said:


> I see bayman still doesn't get it and saving his cash to bulk up on milk.


I've yet to see a convincing argument from you to "get it".


----------



## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

s3_abv said:


> Dr. i train at about 5ish at night so do you think i will benifit having carbs after a workout? Don't want to be taking them late at night.


Why would you not want carbs after a workout? Whether that happens to be at night because of when your workout is, is irrelevant.

Scared of magical night time insulin fairies or something?


----------



## s3_abv (Feb 10, 2010)

bayman said:


> Why would you not want carbs after a workout? Whether that happens to be at night because of when your workout is, is irrelevant.
> 
> Scared of magical night time insulin fairies or something?


Well i use dextose or milk after a workout so don't really want a meal consisting of carbs. After all i'm cutting back on them.

As for eating carbs at night, i just prefer to taper them off throughout the day.

If i was to have a post workout meal with carbs should i remove the milk/dexdrose post workout and carbs from one of my mid morning meals to compensate? I'm eating around 230g complex carbs a day with around 40g-50g simple carbs from a banana and orange.

What you think bayman.


----------



## Outtapped (Dec 10, 2012)

s3_abv said:


> Well i use dextose or milk after a workout so don't really want a meal consisting of carbs. After all i'm cutting back on them.
> 
> As for eating carbs at night, i just prefer to taper them off throughout the day.
> 
> ...


Don't cut fast carbs from post work out. Why not up carbs and up cv?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## s3_abv (Feb 10, 2010)

Whysoserious.............So i keep the dextose for post with a scoop of whey. What would i benifit from by adding carbs and doing more cv mate?

I'm basically doing 4 days of 10-20min easy cv at the moment.

Whats your views on carbs for the first 3 meals then just a simple carb after workout?

Cheers.


----------



## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

You're really over thinking it.

By far more importance is hitting you calorie and macro goals for the day - timing less so.

Keep carbs around workout as this is when they're more likely to be used as fuel or to replenish glycogen. Carbs at night will not make you fat.


----------



## Outtapped (Dec 10, 2012)

Agreed with bayman, don't focus on when to take carbs and not, fast carbs like dextrose yes. You take the dextrose to replace glycogen after work out

When I talk about adding carbs it's if they are too low now and playing with your metabolism. Some bodybuilders do carb depletion before show and some only reduce a bit but do a lot of cv. Because of the negative effects of carb depletion I personally am doing more cv instead

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## s3_abv (Feb 10, 2010)

Well the thing is mon-fri i'm doing alot of hard manual work (bricklayer) so that why i have my carbs in the morning untill workout, then a simple carb like dextrose/milk after.

My marcos are around 250g protein, 300g carbs, 120g fat for a whole day. around 2900cal........Things seem to be going well, i'm getting leaner, stronger and gaining weight.

After all i'm using test e/tri tren.....lol.


----------



## Outtapped (Dec 10, 2012)

s3_abv said:


> Well the thing is mon-fri i'm doing alot of hard manual work (bricklayer) so that why i have my carbs in the morning untill workout, then a simple carb like dextrose/milk after.
> 
> My marcos are around 250g protein, 300g carbs, 120g fat for a whole day. around 2900cal........Things seem to be going well, i'm getting leaner, stronger and gaining weight.
> 
> After all i'm using test e/tri tren.....lol.


So really there's no point to this thread if what u are doing is making u leaner stronger and faster lol

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Jazzaman (Mar 18, 2011)

s3_abv said:


> My marcos are around 250g protein, 300g carbs, 120g fat for a whole day. around 2900cal.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but shouldn't that be closer to 3300 calories? I'm only going by 4 cals per gram of Protein/Carbs and 9 cals per gram of Fat on average.

Jay


----------



## s3_abv (Feb 10, 2010)

WhySoSerious said:


> So really there's no point to this thread if what u are doing is making u leaner stronger and faster lol
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Well yeah because i have adjusted my diet around the things people in this thread have suggested lol.

Thanks all.


----------



## s3_abv (Feb 10, 2010)

Jazzaman said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but shouldn't that be closer to 3300 calories? I'm only going by 4 cals per gram of Protein/Carbs and 9 cals per gram of Fat on average.
> 
> Jay


Sorry thats a non-traing day. Training days are 300-400 cals more because of the dextrose so its right mate.

Good spot tho lol.


----------



## stev249er (Jun 2, 2010)

Dr. said:


> That is not strong enough. its only ~8% of EPA and ~7% DHA. You need 18%EPA and 12%DHA to get a good bang for your buck. Forget cod liver oil, get pure fish oil. Go on ebay and get poorly packaged bulk fish oil caps, they are chip as dirt. I buy 900 of these in one go.


Do you have a link for the ebay listing? I've been looking for a similar source but can't seem to find it.


----------

