# Soya mince - GRRRRR! - a warning!



## Big Dawg (Feb 24, 2008)

In the budget bodybuilding thread a few minutes ago I was advocating the use of TVP/ soya mince. Someone made the statement that "soya isn't good for you". I sort of wrote it off as a stupid myth, but thought I'd search around anyway. Now from what I can gather there's a debate whether soya raises oestrogen levels in men. The apparent consensus is that it can do in very high amounts, but if you eat a moderate amount it shouldn't be a problem.

However, this isn't the issue that concerned me; after much reading I found that soya has a pi55 poor bioavailability! It's 54, behind chicken at 80 and even rice at 59! Before I started eating it I'd researched it and found that it had all essential amino acids etc, but never investigated its bioavailability. Rest assured that upon discovering this I immediately went out and bought a sh1t load of chicken and will be leaving my big sack of "defatted soya flour" in my cupboard to gather dust for the time being.

I've only been eating it once a day recently, but if there's any weak links in my diet I won't feel right, so the soya is out and the chicken is back in once and for all! The only reason I switched was the price issue, but tbh I'd rather pay extra if I know something's actually doing my some good and isn't holding me back!

So just to reiterate: soya has a sh1t bioavailability! Do not be fooled that it is as good a protein source as chicken/ beef etc as it is not. It is much cheaper, but there is obviously a very good reason. I posted this in the general section as it stems from a thread that was already in here and I'd like to retract my comments suggesting TVP/ soya mince as a viable protein source for weight trainers  .


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## Joshua (Aug 21, 2008)

Can you provide a reference for the bioavailability claim?

I was under the impression that the problem with soya protein came from the amino acid profile.

Thanks,

J


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## orange86 (Feb 17, 2008)

alistair, i have dairy intolerance. so i have alot of soy and egg white powder.

what about all the people that go out on the lash and drink, booze has oestrogen effect too.


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## Big Dawg (Feb 24, 2008)

orange86 said:


> alistair, i have dairy intolerance. so i have alot of soy and egg white powder.
> 
> what about all the people that go out on the lash and drink, booze has oestrogen effect too.


So? I wasn't even talking about the oestrogen effect. Try re-reading my post and you'll see I was talking about the bioavailability.


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## BigDom86 (Jul 27, 2008)

im not even talking about estrogen when i saw its bad for you. it has clear links to forms of cancer. cant remember the research though. i wouldnt waste my money on soya anyway, just spend a little more for turkey or beef mince


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## R84 (May 10, 2009)

AlasTTTair -do you have a link to or a list of foods and their bioavailabilities? I would be curious to have a look to better evaluate my diet (I did not know that about soya at all!). I did try searching the forum for a list but could not find one...but if there is one would you mind pointing me in the right direction? Thanks very much.


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## Big Dawg (Feb 24, 2008)

BigDom86 said:


> im not even talking about estrogen when i saw its bad for you. it has clear links to forms of cancer. cant remember the research though. i wouldnt waste my money on soya anyway, just spend a little more for turkey or beef mince


TBH mate there's conflicting findings on the cancer front, but anything which could even be considered to have links to cancer is being avoided by yours truly!

I've never even considered using it before, it was just the fact it was so cheap and has a complete amino acid profile that I thought I might as well try it, but it's an inefficient source of protein tbh, so I'll be sticking to good ol' chicken from now on!


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## Big Dawg (Feb 24, 2008)

R84 said:


> AlasTTTair -do you have a link to or a list of foods and their bioavailabilities? I would be curious to have a look to better evaluate my diet (I did not know that about soya at all!). I did try searching the forum for a list but could not find one...but if there is one would you mind pointing me in the right direction? Thanks very much.


If you scroll down on this link there's a sample of the chart on there mate: http://209.85.229.132/search?q=cacheeenJD7YLYgJ:webpages.charter.net/edsouza/WLS/Proteinseminarpaper.doc+bioavailability+protein+chart&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk

Whey protein has the highest BV of any protein source, and eggs, beef, poultry and fish are up there too. Cow's milk is very high also, though IIRC it's not a complete protein.


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## R84 (May 10, 2009)

AlasTTTair said:


> If you scroll down on this link there's a sample of the chart on there mate: http://209.85.229.132/search?q=cacheeenJD7YLYgJ:webpages.charter.net/edsouza/WLS/Proteinseminarpaper.doc+bioavailability+protein+chart&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk
> 
> Whey protein has the highest BV of any protein source, and eggs, beef, poultry and fish are up there too. Cow's milk is very high also, though IIRC it's not a complete protein.


That's brilliant - my bedtime reading is sorted! Thanks mate. :beer:


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## Jem (Mar 5, 2009)

I'll have a look at that article as well Al - I eat a lot of soya and quorn

Cheers !

Oh yeah - reps lol


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## BLUTOS (Mar 5, 2005)

Good informative post! be honest did you find the soya alternative as tasty or filling as the stuff that comes from the animals?

I see to recall in the mid 80's there was a big move to soya based diets, but the gains never came so peeps started eating things with faces again.


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## Jacko89 (Mar 4, 2009)

Plastic releases oestragen at room temperature too btw, so if you can, get a glass bottle for drinking


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## Big Dawg (Feb 24, 2008)

BLUTOS said:


> Good informative post! be honest did you find the soya alternative as tasty or filling as the stuff that comes from the animals?
> 
> I see to recall in the mid 80's there was a big move to soya based diets, but the gains never came so peeps started eating things with faces again.


Yeah mate, nothing wrong with satiety or taste; I always added pasta sauce, cayenne pepper and a load of salt to it to make it taste like something, so no probs in that respect. I knew that it was defatted soya flour, but figured because of the amino acid profile that it was still cool. Seemed too good to be true it obviously was. I was only having it for one meal a day for the last week, but before that probably thrice a day. I still grew, but I want to make sure I have everything in place, so no room for weak links. Only eating protein that either used to be an animal or at some point came from an animal lol :lol:


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## Joshua (Aug 21, 2008)

AlasTTTair said:


> If you scroll down on this link there's a sample of the chart on there mate: http://209.85.229.132/search?q=cacheeenJD7YLYgJ:webpages.charter.net/edsouza/WLS/Proteinseminarpaper.doc+bioavailability+protein+chart&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk
> 
> Whey protein has the highest BV of any protein source, and eggs, beef, poultry and fish are up there too. Cow's milk is very high also, though IIRC it's not a complete protein.


A few points with that ref.

1. There are two mentions that I saw relating to soy. The first was relating to a particular soy product "Shaklee Energizing Soy" which seems to be a soy protein isolate [Ref], whereas the second mention of soy in the table on BV does not indicate whether it is soy protein concentrate, soy flour, whole soybean, etc. There are considerable differences between these different soy products due to the processing methods utilised, in particular damage to the cell wall.

2 There is some evidence [ Tang, Moore et al ] of a muscle protein synthesis being promoted by soy protein isolate both at rest and post exercise, and the effect is some 18% & 31% lower than whey at rest or post exercise respectively, but higher than caesin in both cases. Although this difference is likely down to the speed that each of the proteins is absorbed, it does indicate that there is substantial availability aminos in soy, sufficient enough to stimulate muscle protein synthesis.

3 Their table showing which amino acids are present in the soy isolate are very odd, crude and I believe is incorrect. I presume that a cross in the box indicates that the amino acid is present, whereas the absence of a cross indicates that it is not present or is a poor source. There is no cross in the Arginine (Conditionally EAA) column, nor for cystine (NEAA) nor proline (NEAA) nor Aspartic Acid (NEAA), yet USDA Reference data indicates that 100g of soy protein contains 6.670g Arg compared to 0.755g Arg in 100g whole egg. USDA data shows proline concentrations to be over 5fold in soy than in egg, and Aspartic Acid to be just under 5fold higher in soy than egg.

4 There are a number of limitations with BV as a measure of dietary protein utility in humans [Srikantia - for an overview of the BV merits and failings ]. One of the problems with BV detailed in the Srikantia review is that the values are more meaningful for people with low intakes of dietary protein. This would not be the case for bodybuilders.

There is an matter of the ability of one protein type to balance others when consumed together (within 4hr or so of each other). Soy does not do too well when consumed with certain proteins eg( wheat ) compared to the balancing ability of soy. This should only be a problem if balanced their protein sources poorly, and/or was consuming low total protein intakes, which does not sound like the case with typical bodybuilders.

IMHO there are some serious issues that need to be taken into account with bodybuilders who use soy protein as their prime source of dietary protein eg( vegetarian bodybuilders) or bodybuilders who do not consume much total dietary protein, however a bit of soy mince or isolate along with a diet chocker with whey, eggs and meat should not be a problem. I believe a bit of soy mince mixed in with beef mince is a great way to increase the protein content of a chilli for a few pennies more without much thought, or with a few calculations can be combined with other foods to form good profiles.

J


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## Uriel (Oct 14, 2008)

BigDom86 said:


> im not even talking about estrogen when i saw its bad for you. it has clear links to forms of cancer.


Soy, a natural pulse.....a bean eaten for 5000 years....causes cancer??

Or is it an additive people put in during processing?

Someone better tell the orientals and asians....they eat it annually by the ton:whistling:

OK edit here's a guardian overview

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2000/aug/13/foodanddrink

I think this bit is relevent - "Richard Barnes, European director of the US Soy Bean Association, said: 'Millions of people around the world have been eating soya for years and have shown no signs of abnormalities or disorders.'

It has to do with estrogen mimicking isoflavines - "The concerns of Doerge and fellow FDA researcher Daniel Sheehan focus on chemicals in soya known as isoflavones which have effects similar to the female hormone oestrogen."

This was written at the peak of a BSE scare.....someone like me would think it was comissioned by beef industry to claw some sales back as I trust no one.


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