# Feeling disheartened about 3 1/2 month progress pics



## MidsGuy21 (Mar 25, 2013)

I actually started around Nov 16th but had 3 weeks off due to a shoulder injury so i didnt lift.

First 3 pics have current pics next to them, the rest are just others taken today.

Concerned with fat gain too.

Before pics i was 11 stone exactly, maybe 10st 13. Currently weigh 11 stone 8. Started creatine a few weeks ago too.

Averaging anywhere from 2000-2500 calories a day (this is based on weekly averages on spreadsheet), with between 180-220g carbs, 130-150g protein and the rest fats.

Feeling like i should cut now, what do you think? I've increase a notch on my belt and dont want it to get any worse, but i dont want to be spinning my wheels either


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## shadow4509 (Jan 27, 2010)

MidsGuy21 said:


> I actually started around Nov 16th but had 3 weeks off due to a shoulder injury so i didnt lift.
> 
> First 3 pics have current pics next to them, the rest are just others taken today.
> 
> ...


3 and a half months isn't a long period of time mate. The problem is with bulking and cutting in quick succession is that you do end up just spinning the wheels.

What does your diet look like and your training?


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## Bora (Dec 27, 2011)

keep up the bulk i say, for another few month atleast, can always cut later, your gaining weight so keep it up, are your lifts progressing aswell?


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## MidsGuy21 (Mar 25, 2013)

shadow4509 said:


> 3 and a half months isn't a long period of time mate. The problem is with bulking and cutting in quick succession is that you do end up just spinning the wheels.
> 
> What does your diet look like and your training?


Yea i dont want to waste time but i dont like my gut/waist area at all and despite not being on a big surplus ive still done a notch on my belt.

A typical day would be:

2 scoops whey and water with or without: Weetabix and milk, two slices wholemeal toast lightly buttered, small bowl of museli, whey and water but with some oats thrown in. To be honest usually just whey and water as i feel better working out without much in me.

Workout

Brown rice and mixed veg with some kind of meat. Typically chicken breast seasoned and pan fried with a little oil, or a can of tuna, steak, turkey etc.

Later on i'll have either the same meal as earlier with different meat.

Before bed 2 scoops of whey and water (or milk) and a spoon of peanut butter


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## MidsGuy21 (Mar 25, 2013)

Bora said:


> keep up the bulk i say, for another few month atleast, can always cut later, your gaining weight so keep it up, are your lifts progressing aswell?


I was thinking maybe drop to 1800 cals and keep diet/routine the same but adjust calories so its more of a recomp, maybe drop carbs and increase protein? Else i'll just end up an even higher bf% and lose motivation because i wont see any gains.

Yes weights are progressing pretty well


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## shadow4509 (Jan 27, 2010)

MidsGuy21 said:


> Yea i dont want to waste time but i dont like my gut/waist area at all and despite not being on a big surplus ive still done a notch on my belt.
> 
> A typical day would be:
> 
> ...


Well your diets [email protected] and you don't seem very enthusiastic about it. Does the same apply to your training?

Average diet with average training will give average results.


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## MidsGuy21 (Mar 25, 2013)

shadow4509 said:


> Well your diets [email protected] and you don't seem very enthusiastic about it. Does the same apply to your training?
> 
> Average diet with average training will give average results.


Enthusiastic about what?

Yes i train to failure and progressively overload every workout.


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## shadow4509 (Jan 27, 2010)

MidsGuy21 said:


> Enthusiastic about what?
> 
> Yes i train to failure and progressively overload every workout.


About your diet.

Post up a typical workout with weights mate


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## nWo (Mar 25, 2014)

If you've gotten noticeable fatter in the last few months, you're eating too much mate.


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## SK50 (Apr 7, 2013)

I also think giving us the routine with weights lifted would be a good idea at this stage.


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## nitricdave (Dec 12, 2014)

Same happened to me starting out . Use fitness pal to control more carefully your calories and macro , if your just guessing " roucghly " as to macros and calories you will be going around in fustrated circles. The idea of putting everyting in a diary seemed extreme to me when starting out but getting down to business has made things a lot easier.


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## MidsGuy21 (Mar 25, 2013)

shadow4509 said:


> About your diet.
> 
> Post up a typical workout with weights mate


No i enjoy the diet i dont have a problem eating brown rice daily i just load it with seasonings and change out the meats.

Upper/lower 4 day

A:

DB bench 32kg dbs 4x6

One arm seated cable row 23kg 4x7

Incline db press 24kg dbs 3x8

chin ups 3x8

side lat raise 8kg dbs 3x12

EZ bar skullcrushers 17.5kg 3x12 (excluding bar weight)

EZ bar preacher curls 15kg 2x12 (excluding bar weight)

B

deads 90kg 4x5

leg press 80kg 3x10

leg curls 65kg 3x12

leg extensions 75kg 4x8

Smith machine calf raises 45kg 3x12 Superset with shrugs 24kg dbs 3x10

Ab machine 75kg 3x10

Hanging leg raises 3x8

A

DB bench press: 26kg dbs 3x10

BB military: 35kg 4x6

Single arm cable row same as above

Seated lat pull downs 72.5kg 4x7

Side lat raise same as above

Tricep cable extension 28kg 2x11

EZ bar curls 15kg 2x12

Second leg day is the same but doing squats instead of deadifts. Squat is currently 75kg 4x6

On lower rep exercises i go from 3-4x5-8 then once i hit 8 i drop down to 5 or 6 reps with a heavier weight.

Same for higher rep exercises but instead i work up to 2 or 3x12 then increase weight and drop back down to 3x10

Sets can change from 3 sets or 4 sets depending on energy and how close i was to failure on previous set


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## natch97 (Oct 28, 2009)

I'd say too many carbs in your diet. Maybe add some CV if you feel you getting fat but kcal are too low for any real lean mass gains


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## Jordan08 (Feb 17, 2014)

Exercise is not even half the battle mate. Focus on your diet, try to read everything about food and result will come. When you will start looking the food in terms of protein, carbs and fat that will be your starting point. Knowledge and Patience are the real key


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## MidsGuy21 (Mar 25, 2013)

natch97 said:


> I'd say too many carbs in your diet. Maybe add some CV if you feel you getting fat but kcal are too low for any real lean mass gains


Theres no set minimum number of calories for mass gains as everyones metabolism is different. Mine must be really low from years of undereating


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

2000-2500 kcal per day is far too variable for my liking. Pick an intake and stick to it so that you can judge how much fat you gain on it and adjust accordingly. I am though suspicious that you may be underestimating what you eat as significant fat gain at even 2500 kcal per day seems a bit unlikely.

You may find MyFitnessPal an easier tool to use than your spreadsheet, but do check the data for foods you eat as there can be errors.


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## MidsGuy21 (Mar 25, 2013)

Ultrasonic said:


> 2000-2500 kcal per day is far too variable for my liking. Pick an intake and stick to it so that you can judge how much fat you gain on it and adjust accordingly. I am though suspicious that you may be underestimating what you eat as significant fat gain at even 2500 kcal per day seems a bit unlikely.
> 
> You may find MyFitnessPal an easier tool to use than your spreadsheet, but do check the data for foods you eat as there can be errors.


I tend to overestimate calories to be on the safe side.

Prior to bulk i did have a bit of an eating disorder, i'd not eat regularly and could go days at 1000-1500 calories or less. Would you recommend i continue as i am or slowly cut down now?


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## shadow4509 (Jan 27, 2010)

MidsGuy21 said:


> Theres no set minimum number of calories for mass gains as everyones metabolism is different. Mine must be really low from years of undereating


Carbs won't make you fat - excess calories will!

Using the maximum number from your macros, you're currently getting

880kcals from Carbs

600kcals from protein

1100kcals from fat

That's calculating from your figures, so I doubt it's accurate as you say some meat and some milk.

I'd weigh your food for a week and track the amounts you are actually eating. I have a feeling a lot of your carbs are high GI, milk, muesli etc, which is fine pre and post workout but I'd be wanting slow release carbs for all other meals.

I'd also have either your fat high or your carbs high but not both. You get the majority of your daily calories from fat.

You protein could be higher too, you weigh 162lbs so allowing 1.5g protein per lb of bodyweight would give you 243g protein.

To cut a long story short, you've been spinning the wheels. My advice would be to change your diet and stick with trying to gain some mass because if you cut now you will look no different.


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## 31205 (Jan 16, 2013)

Up the protein. Drop some carbs. Calories at maintenance. That's what I'd do. I didn't feel happy with size, didn't feel happy with body fat %. This helped loads.


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## IGotTekkers (Jun 6, 2012)

shadow4509 said:


> Well your diets [email protected] and you don't seem very enthusiastic about it. Does the same apply to your training?
> 
> Average diet with average training will give average results.


What's wrong with his diet, its perfectly healthy.


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## Ritchie_Canes (Jul 16, 2014)

^^^^^ This



shadow4509 said:


> Carbs won't make you fat - excess calories will!
> 
> Using the maximum number from your macros, you're currently getting
> 
> ...


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## shadow4509 (Jan 27, 2010)

IGotTekkers said:


> What's wrong with his diet, its perfectly healthy.


It may be "healthy" because there is some meat, milk and fibre in there, but it's not gonna change his body composition!


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## AndyWaller (Oct 10, 2014)

Why do you think you should cut?? There's nothing of you!!

If that's your training programme, how do you think your body is going to recover and get bigger with what looks like a healthy but very lean diet?

Stuff those calories down you mate or else you won't see any results!


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## MidsGuy21 (Mar 25, 2013)

shadow4509 said:


> It may be "healthy" because there is some meat, milk and fibre in there, but it's not gonna change his body composition!


What is missing which is stopping my gaining any muscle?


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## shadow4509 (Jan 27, 2010)

MidsGuy21 said:


> What is missing which is stopping my gaining any muscle?


It could be a number of things! Your training, diet, rest etc and most likely all three!?

You said you do 3-4 sets depending if you hit failure or not. If you're not failing on the last few reps of your set then the weight isn't heavy enough. I appreciate not everyone trains like this and that this is my own personal opinion, but if you think you can do more on another set then you didn't do enough on your last set.

I use 2 warm up sets and one all out heavy working set, using a spotter to push out those last few reps and maybe some negatives. You can always use rest pause if you don't have a spotter - so you go all out on your heaviest soon as you hit failure stop walk around for 10 seconds and go again to squeeze out another 1 or 2 reps.

Diet wise I would take the simple approach

Protein 1.5g per pound of body weight

Carbs 3g per pound of body weight

Fats 0.5g per pound of body weight

It's all about finding what works for you mate. We can all sit here giving you our diet and training routines, but you need to find yours. We do know that whatever you're doing now doesn't seem to be working or we don't have all the facts.


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## andyboro (Oct 1, 2006)

MidsGuy21 said:


> What is missing which is stopping my gaining any muscle?


apologies if this sounds a little nobby but whats missing is patience mate.

everyone starts and thinks that the world will change in three months, then give up when it doesnt and quit... dont be one of those!

the old adage "its a marathon, not a sprint" is very fitting to this game.

if you're gaining fat, then its either re-assess your cals or add in a little cardio. Someone suggested myfitnesspal - i'd recommend that too as it taught me that I was massively kidding myself and overeating. . . be honest with it though regarding weights.

in your pics there is a little development in pecs and delts so its not like NOTHING has changed, it could even be that the little bit (cos it is a little bit) of bf has masked some changes too.


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## IGotTekkers (Jun 6, 2012)

shadow4509 said:


> It may be "healthy" because there is some meat, milk and fibre in there, but it's not gonna change his body composition!


What makes you say that? Lol. If it's a surplus he will grow, if it's a defect he will lose fat.


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## shadow4509 (Jan 27, 2010)

IGotTekkers said:


> What makes you say that? Lol. If it's a surplus he will grow, if it's a defect he will lose fat.


Have you seen the before and after pictures?

Do you it think it's working for him?


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## Bobby's Nuts (Oct 7, 2014)

There's some good advice from @TommyBananas in this thread..

http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/losing-weight/286202-help-calorie-counting.html

MyFitnessPal, and tracking my weight using TrendWeight has really helped me to focus my diet!

Good luck with your goals, hard work and patience will pay off in the end!


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## MidsGuy21 (Mar 25, 2013)

shadow4509 said:


> It could be a number of things! Your training, diet, rest etc and most likely all three!?
> 
> You said you do 3-4 sets depending if you hit failure or not. If you're not failing on the last few reps of your set then the weight isn't heavy enough. I appreciate not everyone trains like this and that this is my own personal opinion, but if you think you can do more on another set then you didn't do enough on your last set.
> 
> ...


With regards to the training i just do Lyles generic bulk, with sets/reps i follow what he says:

I prefer to give set and rep ranges for the simple fact that if you tell someone to do 4 sets of 8,

they will do 4 sets of 8 even if they should have stopped at the third set on rep 6.

3-4 sets means 3 to 4 sets. So after your third set, you need to make a judgement call. if I were

there coaching you, I"d make it for you. Judging by how fatigued you looked on the third set,

what your reps looked like, how fried you looked. If you still looked strong, I'd have you do a 4th

set. If you looked fried, you'd stop at 3.


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## IGotTekkers (Jun 6, 2012)

shadow4509 said:


> Have you seen the before and after pictures?
> 
> Do you it think it's working for him?


I think that's perfectly acceptable progress for 9 weeks of natural lifting, the top pics are the after right?


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## natch97 (Oct 28, 2009)

MidsGuy21 said:


> Theres no set minimum number of calories for mass gains as everyones metabolism is different. Mine must be really low from years of undereating


That's true but if you burn, say, 300 - 500 kcals in your workout, 5%-15% for your digestive system, unless you just sit in front of the tele all day then there can't be much left.

Putting on a bit of fat when your bulking is unavoidable. Have a look at some pro BBers in their off season. When I was younger I used to smoke a lot of weed and didn't eat properly, when I quit I put quite a bit of weight on but everyone said how much healthier I looked. It's not the end of the world to hold a little fat as long as keep control of it. If you have problems with self perception then try and find a friend who will be honest with you to tell you what they think about your size. Or post regular pics on here. I can say that it looks like you have put on some muscle and some fat since you began. I'd keep going for a far bit yet. You certainly don't look fat.


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## MidsGuy21 (Mar 25, 2013)

IGotTekkers said:


> I think that's perfectly acceptable progress for 9 weeks of natural lifting, the top pics are the after right?


Before pics are where im tanned


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## IGotTekkers (Jun 6, 2012)

MidsGuy21 said:


> Before pics are where im tanned


Oh.

K den.


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## Guest (Mar 5, 2015)

Sounds to me like you've got to do a little bit of trial and error ahead of you.

It looks like you're putting on more fat than muscle so sounds like your eating too much or the composition of your diet isn't working for you.

Just my 2p but in your situation I'd go to maintenance calories (2300 approx). High fat, high protein pre training and save your carbs till post training.

If you find that your intensity suffers because of this (it'll vary person to person) then either introduce some complex carbs like oats or sweet potato pre workout.

Strip your training back to proper basics. Something like 5x5 with some assistance work and with some sprints thrown in 2/3 times a week.

People can offer training alternatives but ultimately you can't out train a bad diet and put simply, yours isn't working.


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## shadow4509 (Jan 27, 2010)

MidsGuy21 said:


> With regards to the training i just do Lyles generic bulk, with sets/reps i follow what he says:
> 
> I prefer to give set and rep ranges for the simple fact that if you tell someone to do 4 sets of 8,
> 
> ...


It works the other way though as well mate. Someone tells you to do 4 sets of 8 are you going to stop at 8 on the 4th set even if you had more in you?


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## MidsGuy21 (Mar 25, 2013)

shadow4509 said:


> It works the other way though as well mate. Someone tells you to do 4 sets of 8 are you going to stop at 8 on the 4th set even if you had more in you?


I'm just following the routine as it was written


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## shadow4509 (Jan 27, 2010)

MidsGuy21 said:


> I'm just following the routine as it was written


Do you feel like you have got something from the routine?


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## Titleist (Feb 20, 2015)

MidsGuy21 said:


> Before pics are where im tanned





IGotTekkers said:


> Oh.
> 
> K den.


Are you sure ? - Looks like you have gone backwards but it may just be me reading it wrong.

If that is the case your calorie intake in too high.

I think you are miscalculating your calories because 2000 - 2500 shouldn't be putting fat on like it has.

Especially as the diet you stated in fairly lean.


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## MidsGuy21 (Mar 25, 2013)

Some strength gains yea. When I started I was squatting 40kg, rowing 14kg dB's and benching 20kg dbs


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

MidsGuy21 said:


> I tend to overestimate calories to be on the safe side.
> 
> Prior to bulk i did have a bit of an eating disorder, i'd not eat regularly and could go days at 1000-1500 calories or less. Would you recommend i continue as i am or slowly cut down now?


My advice would be to not estimate calories, weigh everything and try to accurately get a consistant calorie intake for a while and see how you get on. Maybe go for 2300 kcal to start with. Macros are much less important than total calories, but something like 1g protein per lb of protein, 20-30% of total calories from fat and the rest from carbs is a good starting point. Different people do better on different carb/fat levels which is why you've had a range of suggestions.


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## TommyBananas (Nov 23, 2014)

Lol at people saying eat carbs around workouts and to eat less carbs and more fats hahahaaaaa


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## Mclovin147 (Nov 11, 2013)

Wouldn't bother counting calories mate.

I gained 2 St natty whilst staying prett lean (2-3% rise out of 2 stone is good!) over 12-16 months. Strengh obviously shot up (Was doing 5x7) and I didn't count calories.

Just eat healthy/sensibly, 3 decent meals a day of nutrient packed foods (Fresh Salmon and pasta) was my staple, get some nuts and whole fat milk for inbetween meals. Sorted.

Bulk like that for a year and you'll make *all kinds of gainzzz*.


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## Guest (Mar 5, 2015)

TommyBananas said:


> Lol at people saying eat carbs around workouts and to eat less carbs and more fats hahahaaaaa


I get it. Eat as many carbs as you like. Food types don't matter. Some internet Youtube guy says this. Its energy in versus energy expended. etc... blah, blah, blah..

I'm merely giving the fella a suggestion based on what I've tried which has stemmed from what I've read.

I'm not a fitness or nutrition guru, I don't claim to be but this is what the forums for, offering advice. Sorry if it doesn't agree with the opinion of some body builder you follow but stop dismissing other opinions and methods like you know everything.


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## ohh_danielson (Oct 16, 2013)

I think patience and proper tracking of your food is all that is required really. Your 'guesstimating' a lot of your foods by the look of it... You probably don't really know your maintenance calories.

I'd have a few weeks of weighing all your foods and counting everything you put in your mouth, aim for a calorie number (plenty of online calculators for a rough idea) and see how your weight goes. Then when you know roughly what your maintenance is, go on a small calorie surplus, maybe just 0.5lb a week gain, should keep the fat gain down.

Bit more effort and patience and you'll be laughing mate.


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## TommyBananas (Nov 23, 2014)

Bowtie.Boris said:


> I get it. Eat as many carbs as you like. Food types don't matter. Some internet Youtube guy says this. Its energy in versus energy expended. etc... blah, blah, blah..
> 
> I'm merely giving the fella a suggestion based on what I've tried which has stemmed from what I've read.
> 
> I'm not a fitness or nutrition guru, I don't claim to be but this is what the forums for, offering advice. Sorry if it doesn't agree with the opinion of some body builder you follow but stop dismissing other opinions and methods like you know everything.


Your anecdote and "what you have read" (broscience) - is the problem.


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## rsd147 (Nov 14, 2012)

Hi mate,

If I was you, calculate roughly what your intake in calories should be through IIFYM.com for maintenance. Protein 1g per lbs bodyweight, for you roughly 160g. Fats around 20% of your overall calories and fill the rest with carbs. Ensure you hit a good amount of fibre (rough 10g for every 1000kcals) and see how you get on, if you drop weight add on 200cals and keep going till you steady improve on your strength gains. Track what you eat through My fitness pal and enjoy what you eat, keeps foods fairly healthy but if you fancy a treat, include them in your Kcals and macros.

Training routine looks pretty good to me and if you are enjoying it, stick with it. If your not change it something you enjoy as its all consistence.


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## MidsGuy21 (Mar 25, 2013)

Im tracking and weighing everything to the last gram today and will continue to for a while. Aiming for 1800 cals a day for a week or 2 and see what happens with my weight.

One thing ive noticed is the scoop that comes with My Protein whey isnt 25g unless its really heaped. Unless it got mixed up with a scoop from another supplier. So most shakes ive had have been about 10g of protein lower than they should be


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

MidsGuy21 said:


> Im tracking and weighing everything to the last gram today and will continue to for a while. Aiming for 1800 cals a day for a week or 2 and see what happens with my weight.
> 
> One thing ive noticed is the scoop that comes with My Protein whey isnt 25g unless its really heaped. Unless it got mixed up with a scoop from another supplier. So most shakes ive had have been about 10g of protein lower than they should be


I always weigh whey, but that 10g difference won't have had any significant effect unless you are having loads of whey. If you're weighing everything then what you need to be doing is planning your food ahead much better, otherwise why was your daily intake so variable?


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## MidsGuy21 (Mar 25, 2013)

Ultrasonic said:


> I always weigh whey, but that 10g difference won't have had any significant effect unless you are having loads of whey. If you're weighing everything then what you need to be doing is planning your food ahead much better, *otherwise why was your daily intake so variable?*


It wasn't hugely off, but partially due to fluctuating weight. My weight doesnt increase at a normal rate, so if i havnt gained in a couple of weeks i up the calories a bit, but then a week later i can jump up 4lb. Maybe partially due to creatine but unlikely. Here are a few weeks of average calories:

2271

2252

2374

2391

2245

2000 - was off due to shoulder

2510

2292

2030 - concerned with fat gain

2067 - concerned with fat gain

And here are some weights i recorded:

date weight lost/gained

24/11/14 10st 11 - Was in a low carb diet so expected a quick jump of water weight when eating normal meals

1/12/2014 10st 13 2lb

25/12/2015 11st 4 5lb

13/1/2015	1 1st 4 -

18/02/2015 11st 7 3lb

05/03/2015 11st 8 1lb


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

OK, that makes things a bit clearer. I would go for hitting a daily calorie target rather than looking at weekly averages though.

In the long run you could be less precise but while you try and establish an appropriate calorie intake I'd be aiming to be as consistant as possible.


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## MidsGuy21 (Mar 25, 2013)

Ultrasonic said:


> OK, that makes things a bit clearer. I would go for hitting a daily calorie target rather than looking at weekly averages though.
> 
> In the long run you could be less precise but while you try and establish an appropriate calorie intake I'd be aiming to be as consistant as possible.


Judging by the correlation of weekly calories and weight gain, it seems around 2000 calories a day is my maintenance. Thats including HIIT and/or cardio twice a week and obviously the weight lifting itself. Maybe i just gain fat easily with a lot of carbs/fata? Could reduce them in favour of more protein (200g) and see what happens.

Just weighed myself and it looks like i'll be 11st 7 tomorrow morning (based on 2lb lost overnight which usually happens)


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

MidsGuy21 said:


> Judging by the correlation of weekly calories and weight gain, it seems around 2000 calories a day is my maintenance. Thats including HIIT and/or cardio twice a week and obviously the weight lifting itself.


How tall are you out of interest? 2000 calories is extremely low to be maintenance for someone regularly weight training, but it is just about possible given your history of eating very low calories. Apologies if you know this, but your BMR is not fixed, and prolonged periods of low eating low calories wil reduce it, which is the likely explanation if your maintenance level really is this low. This is nothing to worry about though, as if this is the case you can get your BMR back up, by gradually increasing your calorie intake over time. The other explanation could be that you are taking in calories that you aren't accounting for properly, but from what you've said it sounds like this probably isn't the case.

I wouldn't normally post these as they are part speculation rather than fact (and many here will say they are all speculation/nonsense), but you may find the following two videos interesting and could possibly resonate with your past experience:











For right now, if you want to go with 2000 calories per day, do so for a couple of weeks and see how you get on, but for the longer term I would be looking to gradually increase your calories over time as per the second video above. Nobody here has built the sort of physique I assume you are after eating so little.



> Maybe i just gain fat easily with a lot of carbs/fata? Could reduce them in favour of more protein (200g) and see what happens.


Concentrate on total calories, don't waste money throwing more protein at the problem. Yes there are differences in how different macronutrients are processed, but you really don't need to be worrying about this right now.



> Just weighed myself and it looks like i'll be 11st 7 tomorrow morning (based on 2lb lost overnight which usually happens)


You really don't want to get into the habit of weighing yourself multiple times per day. At the most weigh yourself once each day at the same time, first thing in the morning for example. But think in terms of trends over weeks, not worrying about the perfectly normal daily fluctuations that everyone has (mostly due to varying amounts of food in the gut and the level of hydration). And actually try to stop thinking about your weight as much as you clearly are. You've been making good progress in the gym, focus on that .


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## funkdocta (May 29, 2013)

Eat more food!


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## MidsGuy21 (Mar 25, 2013)

Ultrasonic said:


> How tall are you out of interest? 2000 calories is extremely low to be maintenance for someone regularly weight training, but it is just about possible given your history of eating very low calories. Apologies if you know this, but your BMR is not fixed, and prolonged periods of low eating low calories wil reduce it, which is the likely explanation if your maintenance level really is this low. This is nothing to worry about though, as if this is the case you can get your BMR back up, by gradually increasing your calorie intake over time. The other explanation could be that you are taking in calories that you aren't accounting for properly, but from what you've said it sounds like this probably isn't the case.
> 
> I wouldn't normally post these as they are part speculation rather than fact (and many here will say they are all speculation/nonsense), but you may find the following two videos interesting and could possibly resonate with your past experience:
> 
> ...


In theory though isnt that just because others have higher metabolisms? I've read about guys who eat 4000-6000 calories a day on a bulk, which makes 2500 look like not enough but everybody is different. I think Hodgetwins said they bulk on about 2300 even at their weight.

I'm about 5ft 11


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## AndyWaller (Oct 10, 2014)

MidsGuy21 said:


> In theory though isnt that just because others have higher metabolisms? I've read about guys who eat 4000-6000 calories a day on a bulk, which makes 2500 look like not enough but everybody is different. I think Hodgetwins said they bulk on about 2300 even at their weight.
> 
> I'm about 5ft 11


What Ultrasonic is saying though is that what you are doing doesn't seem to be working anyway.

Sod what anyone else does, find out what's best for you.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

MidsGuy21 said:


> In theory though isnt that just because others have higher metabolisms? I've read about guys who eat 4000-6000 calories a day on a bulk, which makes 2500 look like not enough but everybody is different. I think Hodgetwins said they bulk on about 2300 even at their weight.
> 
> I'm about 5ft 11


Did you watch the videos?

People bulking on 6000 calories are MUCH bigger than you, almost certainly using steroids and if not are not bothered about gaining body fat.

Yes there is variability in BMR between individuals but a 2000 calorie maintenance figure for someone your height who is regularly working out and doing cardio is very low.

In the long run I really do think you would benefit from eating more.


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## welshman (May 22, 2008)

If you are natural then you need to be realistic with your expectations. If you're still unhappy with your progress in another 9 months then I'd start worrying. I was a similar build to you in the deep distant past, I stopped measuring change and concentrated on training until people started commenting on my size. In my head I'm the same size I was when I joined this forum in 2008 but I know that in reality from either old pics or comments from random strangers I know that isn't the case. Stick with it and you'll get there.


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## Roid-Rage (Nov 26, 2014)

@MidsGuy21

First problem is your first pics are tanned and your others aren't so this makes your progress look less.

You have gained 8lb so that's pretty good going for your first 3 months training after an eating disorder, sometimes the eyes lie especially if you have had issues with this before so I would recommend you buy some calipers and start taking your body fat measurement when you weigh in, that way if the scales are going up but the skin fold isn't then you are adding muscle.

I would also recommend carrying on eating exactly what you have been just for one more week weigh and record everything for this week including calories, fibre, protein, carbs and fats and then look at the real figures and see how far away from your estimations they are.


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## MidsGuy21 (Mar 25, 2013)

Roid-Rage said:


> @MidsGuy21
> 
> First problem is your first pics are tanned and your others aren't so this makes your progress look less.
> 
> ...


Thanks i might take some more pics tomorrow. Im hoping the 8lb isnt just fat and water?


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## MidsGuy21 (Mar 25, 2013)

Couple more pics. People are saying i've gained some size and i feel like i have a bit, but probably putting a bit too much fat on at the same time.

Suppose being tanned gives a similar illusion to strong down lighting in a dark room. Or am i kidding myself? I'm tempted to do Lyle Mcdonalds rapid fat loss diet for a week or 2 just to drop a few lbs so then maybe i will be able to see progress a bit more. It sucks that i hold all my fat on my gut and lower back.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

You're being far too tough on yourself, you don't look bad at all!

And yes, tanning and lighting can make a huge difference to how you look in a photo.


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## Roid-Rage (Nov 26, 2014)

MidsGuy21 said:


> Couple more pics. People are saying i've gained some size and i feel like i have a bit, but probably putting a bit too much fat on at the same time.
> 
> Suppose being tanned gives a similar illusion to strong down lighting in a dark room. Or am i kidding myself? I'm tempted to do Lyle Mcdonalds rapid fat loss diet for a week or 2 just to drop a few lbs so then maybe i will be able to see progress a bit more. It sucks that i hold all my fat on my gut and lower back.[\QUOTE]
> 
> ...


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## MidsGuy21 (Mar 25, 2013)

Roid-Rage said:


> Thanks I guess it was working then I just had bad pics and eating a tad too many calories.


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## MidsGuy21 (Mar 25, 2013)

How long do you think i should continue to be on a bulk? I dont want to have to cut for months when i come off it if possible


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## Roid-Rage (Nov 26, 2014)

MidsGuy21 said:


> How long do you think i should continue to be on a bulk? I dont want to have to cut for months when i come off it if possible


Come out of the bulk and cut mentality, cutting in my opinion is for someone with excesses of fat which you do not have and the cutting and bulking thing is more for steroid users to be honest.

Keep your diet lean and so you are adding lean mass with as little fat as possible and your body will get leaner so no need to ever cut if you don't bulk dirty.


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## MidsGuy21 (Mar 25, 2013)

Roid-Rage said:


> Come out of the bulk and cut mentality, cutting in my opinion is for someone with excesses of fat which you do not have and the cutting and bulking thing is more for steroid users to be honest.
> 
> Keep your diet lean and so you are adding lean mass with as little fat as possible and your body will get leaner so no need to ever cut if you don't bulk dirty.


OK thanks. What are your thoughts on a 50/30/20 macro split (p,c,f) for my diet to gain mass as lean as possible? I've read that as an endomorph its advised to keep carbs in the 30-40% for lean gains


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## Roid-Rage (Nov 26, 2014)

MidsGuy21 said:


> OK thanks. What are your thoughts on a 50/30/20 macro split (p,c,f) for my diet to gain mass as lean as possible? I've read that as an endomorph its advised to keep carbs in the 30-40% for lean gains


To add lean mass and body re-comp which is what you are trying to achieve I would recommend a 40 40 20 split of macros.

For instance I am now doing something similar, I have had some time off for a baby and added some body fat so now I'm starting up again I want to do the same as what you are trying to achieve and I am eating 3300 calories a day, 300g protein, 300g carbs and 100g fats per day but I weigh 14 stone so for you I would recommend;

2640 cals 240g protein, 240g carbs and 80g fats

The whole endo / ecto / mesomorph thing I'm not too sure if I believe but what I will say is everyone's bodies respond differently so you have to play with cals and macros for yourself but this should give you a good starting point.

Buy some body fat calipers and use this Body Fat Calculator - Scooby's Home Workouts once a week get up and don't eat, empty yourself, weigh yourself and take the caliper measurements and you will know what is muscle and what is fat, numbers don't lie but photos do mate.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

You've been doing body recomposition for ages. Give sensible bulk/cut a go and see how you get on, then decide what works best for you.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

I'm saying this assuming you are natural, right?


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## MidsGuy21 (Mar 25, 2013)

Thanks ill adjust and try out a 40/40/20 split then


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Oops! I was mixing this up with another thread, doh! I was thinking of someone else when I said you'd been doing body recomposition for ages.

I still think sensible bulking/cutting is probably a better long term plan FWIW, but experiment and see what works best for you.

I find bodyfat calipers very useful too BTW.


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## MidsGuy21 (Mar 25, 2013)

Would i be overtraining if i did upper/lower split 3 times a week (so 6 days a week)?

Doing the same routine as what i posted earlier in the thread but maybe dropping a set here and there and one session would be focused on strength, one for hypertrophy and one in between?


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## MidsGuy21 (Mar 25, 2013)

I'm pretty sure my maintenance is around 2000-2100 a day. I've gained 1lb in a month, and the past few weeks on average i've had 2000-2100cals a day. Probably time i increase and stick to around 2400-2500 a day.

How long usually does it take to really notice muscle gains?


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

MidsGuy21 said:


> Would i be overtraining if i did upper/lower split 3 times a week (so 6 days a week)?
> 
> Doing the same routine as what i posted earlier in the thread but maybe dropping a set here and there and one session would be focused on strength, one for hypertrophy and one in between?


You might be OK, but as you say I think you'd need to reduce the volume per workout. Personally I'd be more inclined to go with a PHUL routine 4 days per week, or possibly whole body three times per week (or every other day if you can be flexible about training days). Mixing up strength and hypertrophy work is a good plan though. No harm in trying what you suggested though, we all have to find what works best for us in terms of training, and I do think higher frequency is generally better for natural trainees.

Bear in mind that if you do switch from training 4 days per week to 6 days per week that this in itself will incease you maintenance calorie level.


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## harrison180 (Aug 6, 2013)

MidsGuy21 said:


> I actually started around Nov 16th but had 3 weeks off due to a shoulder injury so i didnt lift.
> 
> First 3 pics have current pics next to them, the rest are just others taken today.
> 
> ...


If your first pics are at the bottom and the new ones at the top it looks like good progress to me mate.

3 months is nothing as I found out. I was following those sh1t 3 month training things out the mags and could see the pics etc. Well it's ok when your being sponsored by a magazine to do it and for 3 months give it your all etc.

I'd say your back and pecs are doing the best atm going from those pics. Keep up the work, have patience, that's the one thing I lack and it ruins things like this for me lol


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

MidsGuy21 said:


> I'm pretty sure my maintenance is around 2000-2100 a day. I've gained 1lb in a month, and the past few weeks on average i've had 2000-2100cals a day. Probably time i increase and stick to around 2400-2500 a day.


If you have the patience, I'd increase calories gradually rather than jumping straight to 2400+. This will allow you to better determine what the right intake is for you without gaining too much fat. Maybe start with 2200 kcal per day, and then each week increase this by 50 or 100 kcal depending you you get on?


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## MidsGuy21 (Mar 25, 2013)

Ultrasonic said:


> If you have the patience, I'd increase calories gradually rather than jumping straight to 2400+. This will allow you to better determine what the right intake is for you without gaining too much fat. Maybe start with 2200 kcal per day, and then each week increase this by 50 or 100 kcal depending you you get on?


Sounds like a plan. As long as i wouldnt be overtraining i would like to workout 6 days a week.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

MidsGuy21 said:


> Sounds like a plan. As long as i wouldnt be overtraining i would like to workout 6 days a week.


You may be overtraining - it will depend on the volume and how your body recovers (also affected by diet and sleep). If you find yourself wiped out and not progressing on your lifts, then it is too much.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

As I believe you are natural, you may find the following discussion interesting, including opinions from people far more experienced than I am:

http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/natural-bodybuilding/222427-upper-lower-body-split-vs-body-workout-vs-training-split.html


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## MidsGuy21 (Mar 25, 2013)

Ultrasonic said:


> You may be overtraining - it will depend on the volume and how your body recovers (also affected by diet and sleep). If you find yourself wiped out and not progressing on your lifts, then it is too much.


I'll try it for a month then and see how i get on, it will be a lot of volume but i wont know how well i recover until i try.


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## MidsGuy21 (Mar 25, 2013)

Ultrasonic said:


> You may be overtraining - it will depend on the volume and how your body recovers (also affected by diet and sleep). If you find yourself wiped out and not progressing on your lifts, then it is too much.


Doing some more research and i'm tempted to switch to ICF 5x5 program. My current main compound lifts are:

Db bench 32kg dbs 4x6

Incline db bench 26kg dbs 1x10, 1x8, 1x7

BB overheard press 45kg 4x6

Squats 80kg 4x6

Deadlifts 95kg 4x6

DB bent over rows 28kg dbs for 4x8

These are still pretty weak lifts so would ICF 5x5 for 3 days a week be a better alternative?

Again my goal is to gain muscle, strength isnt that important to me. That said, i've never seen a big guy lifting the kind of weights i am, so obviously strength plays a big part right?

I'm not progressing all that well on a few lifts as well (mainly deads, overhead press and rows)


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