# Hamas



## muscle01 (Nov 6, 2008)

Is Israel right to wage war on Hamas. Bearing in mind that they ( hamas ) have continued to fire rockets despite warnings from Israel and are seen by many as terrorists.

Civilian death toll rises:

' Forty-two women and children were killed when an Israeli tank opened fire outside a UN-run school in the Gaza, the second such attack today.

Two tank shells exploded outside the al-Fakhora school in Jabaliya refugee camp, spraying shrapnel on those inside and outside the building, where hundreds of Palestinians had sought refuge from fighting between Israeli soldiers and Hamas militants.

Bodies lay scattered on the ground in pools of blood amid shredded clothes and shoes after the attack, in which several dozen people were also wounded. Israel has continued to defy international calls for a ceasefire as they moved their troops deeper into southern Gaza to intensify their ground offensive. '

Source: The Times


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## Guest (Jan 6, 2009)

What came first? the rockets from Hamas or the shells from Israel? as both continue to say that they only fire in retaliation. Dont know a great deal about it TBH, i know Israel occupied Gaza (along with a few others regions) a few years back, and both 'governments' lay claim to the strip of land.

I think Hamas could go about it a different way, i mean, launching rockets from civilian sites, what do you think will happen?


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## LeanShredded (Feb 9, 2007)

Hold on, a discussion on Hamas on this board? The same board that has the most popular thread of all time as being 'Stockings and Suspenders'??!!!!

Bloody hell we are going upmarket, next we will be wearing tuxedos at our pc's!!!!


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## muscle01 (Nov 6, 2008)

I go down market on occasion too. My chav thread would back this up-along with all the rest of them lol


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## pastanchicken (Sep 29, 2008)

right or wrong, it's a bad bad situation


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## offo (Apr 10, 2006)

Well hamas are classed as terrorists. And are a pain in the ****... They do need dealing with not sure this is the best way to go about it. I do think however it maybe the only way to go about it.. I dont think politically anything can be done. I think Israel have had enoug of the hamas being there and stirring up trouble for them. Although they have some what opressed Gaza and stopped them from developing etc.. I don't know if its anything to do with us...


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## Harry1436114491 (Oct 8, 2003)

Both are ****s, but Israel is totally out of order for not allowing some escape for the children and peaceful civilians before it flatened them.


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## Robsta (Oct 2, 2005)

If hamas use civilian sites to send rockets over, then they are the ones out of order knowing that israel will flatten those areas...They know this and want it, that way the world will blame israel and not hamas....Israel has the right to defend it's citizens and if this is the only way to stop rocket attacks theen fair play to them...How long have they put up with it?? fcukin years that's how long...I hope israel wipe hamas off the map...


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

i am all for sensible debate, i am sure some will side on both sides so lets keep this a mature debate any insults will not be tolerated...


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## offo (Apr 10, 2006)

to be honest appaerntly Israel have been giving warnings where they are gonna hit next for the purpose of civilians getting away...the only thing that concerns me is the way they are denying the press access to Gaza its begs the question why? And also asks is there something to hide that they dont want the rest of the world to see??


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## Robsta (Oct 2, 2005)

let's put it another way.....let's say the ruling party of wales (just as an example) were sending rockets over to England and killing civilians....would we put uup with it for years, fcuk no we wouldn't, we'd go in a flattten it...

It's all about jerusalem, both the muslims and jews want control of it, but imo the Jews were there 1st, always was and so it's rightly theirs... imo anyway.....


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## noel (Dec 30, 2005)

blimey seeing as in 60years no one has solved it - let alone the thousands before the creation of israel i doubt we will get to the bottom of it

both wrong , both have grievances

bit like chicken and egg

my solution

bit like a game of ball at lunchtime - if you cant all play nicely then no one plays

Jerusalem belongs to no one - the whole area becomes a world heritage sort of Holy site, with neither arab/muslim/jewish/christian etc allowed to settle - 1 day pass to visit and everyone else has to move along.. ;-)

you have the whole sinai peninsula - move everyone there - get th dubai architects in and job done, city out of the desert for all to live happily ever after


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## LeanShredded (Feb 9, 2007)

Robsta said:


> If hamas use civilian sites to send rockets over, then they are the ones out of order knowing that israel will flatten those areas...They know this and want it, that way the world will blame israel and not hamas....Israel has the right to defend it's citizens and if this is the only way to stop rocket attacks theen fair play to them...How long have they put up with it?? fcukin years that's how long...I hope israel wipe hamas off the map...


Et Tu Robsta???????

This board is going to **** with all this clever talk, people like Robsta making no perverse comments, its just not right, im not renewing my membership fees anymore, oh hold on a sec........


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## offo (Apr 10, 2006)

to be honest if you look just 30 years ago wales was doing all kinds of crap to english people blowing up caravans doing all sorts.. The free Wales army or something, not wanting to be apart of the UK.... Before I was born obviously.. I dont think you can compare wales and england to israel and gaza... If you look 100s of years ago though history is filled with english and welsh wars and scottish wars...

And after all these wars they are back at square 1 basically... at the end of all wars they end up at square one eventually


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## Robsta (Oct 2, 2005)

I said as an example you thickit........you know, an example where people use anything as an EX FCUKIN AMPLE.....god give me stength


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## Robsta (Oct 2, 2005)

And besides, the free wales army is hardly the ruling party is it????

Hamas are supposed to be the ruling party of Gaza yet they resort to terrorist tactics when they don't achieve what they want by negotiations....I can pretty much guarantee that if any ruling party of a country insisted on firing rockets and killing civilians on English soil, we would go to war with them.....


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## offo (Apr 10, 2006)

I know what i was trying to say was all wars end up not getting anywhere... wasnt getting all defensive about being welsh.. but just saying that all wars normally end up a big waste of energy and loss of life.. but back on point..

Are Israel justified about doing a mass offensive against gaza?


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## Robsta (Oct 2, 2005)

I think I've answred my opinion on it....


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## offo (Apr 10, 2006)

if british soil was touched anywhere we would go shoot their ****.. I mean just look at the falklands and that is miles down south... I think Israel is just doing what any country would do... fair point robsta


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## offo (Apr 10, 2006)

I think I have made up my mind after reading your comment robsta  please dont call me a thickit


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## offo (Apr 10, 2006)

Oh my robsta you are near the end of your badges I am so waiting to see what happens when you reach the end mate I really am intrigued


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## Pithead (Aug 8, 2008)

Knowing about all the western media spin that goes on it's hard to make out the facts but it is an evil situation.

So much hatred has been built up between the countries that it's bred into the people over generations and become a way of life. Much like Northern Ireland and any 2 countries/parties in bloody dispute.

I'm not even gonna say who's in the right or wrong here. Both parties have commited their own serious wrongs.

Maybe one day they will sort it out but I doubt it will be for a while yet. It's only been going on 50 years or so which is a very short time in the scale of things. There have been other wars lasting longer.


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## offo (Apr 10, 2006)

Maybe this is the final straw and Israel are thinking of putting an end to hamas? I mean they have rejected a ceasefire and they deny the press access...they said there will be more stages to their offensive so lets just see if they go in. Makes me wonder what the other Arabs will do? it must be a worry


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## muscle01 (Nov 6, 2008)

offo said:


> Maybe this is the final straw and Israel are thinking of putting an end to hamas? I mean they have rejected a ceasefire and they deny the press access...they said there will be more stages to their offensive so lets just see if they go in. Makes me wonder what the other Arabs will do? it must be a worry


That's what I heard on the radio last night.


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## offo (Apr 10, 2006)

it was just my view on it really but it makes sense to be honest


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## pea head (May 28, 2008)

How long will it be before somebody drops a nuke ....god forbid it never comes to that.


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## offo (Apr 10, 2006)

I have heard the americans are already thinking of nuking Iran..Been alot of talk about that lately appaerntly.. some yank was telling me two weeks ago...they have done it before, so why not again if it means avoiding losing americans.. I mean if they really believe that iranians are trying to make nukes for themselves. I dont think they really want to take the risk of them having a bomb i dont think they like it being on equal terms


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## squats (Aug 27, 2008)

Did Hamas really think that they could rocket Israel without retribution? Of course not..... they`re dedicated to the destruction of Israel. If the Israeli`s destroy Hamas, I`d cheer- they won`t be trying to murder my (distant) family. Its a great shame that the ordinary Palestinian is suffering so much. though.


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## laurie g (Nov 28, 2008)

offo said:


> Oh my robsta you are near the end of your badges I am so waiting to see what happens when you reach the end mate I really am intrigued


 yeah but very few reps why is that? has he traded them for stars? :tongue:


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## offo (Apr 10, 2006)

whats he gonna trade the stars for lauire:S i am desperate to know


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## laurie g (Nov 28, 2008)

offo said:


> whats he gonna trade the stars for lauire:S i am desperate to know


reps, 10 pounds, and a ride on the pink sausage:laugh: ( joke)


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## offo (Apr 10, 2006)

LOL VERY CHEEKY  but whose pink sausage


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## laurie g (Nov 28, 2008)

offo said:


> LOL VERY CHEEKY  but whose pink sausage


 ha ha we are talking bout robsta here- sorry robsta shhhh he may beat us up:thumb: ( creeps silently away:innocent


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## offo (Apr 10, 2006)

he has a sense of humour


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## Zara-Leoni (Mar 12, 2007)

offo said:


> whats he gonna trade the stars for lauire:S i am desperate to know


A cuddle and a cold remedy that works 



offo said:


> he has a sense of humour


Not today.... he has man-flu..... ssshhh.... its *very* serious....


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## offo (Apr 10, 2006)

this really should been a thread made on robsta! Who is up for starting one of them Zara


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## TaintedSoul (May 16, 2007)

pea head said:


> How long will it be before somebody drops a nuke ....god forbid it never comes to that.


Hamas fire their equivelant of pea shooters and Israel has it's stock pile of nukes in dimona, hi-tech military army paid for by the USA. Kind of an unfair fight.

Either the Gaza's people are completely fcking stupid or they are fighting for something they think is right?

Israel has been blocking humanatarian aid ships and although I agree hamas fires from civilian buildings so when Israel fights back they look bad. Israel is also very good at fighting very dirty and not playing by the rules and giving the UN the finger to what it's allowed to do.


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## muscle01 (Nov 6, 2008)

TaintedSoul said:


> Hamas fire their equivelant of pea shooters and Israel has it's stock pile of nukes in dimona, hi-tech military army paid for by the USA. Kind of an unfair fight.
> 
> Either the Gaza's people are completely fcking stupid or they are fighting for something they think is right?
> 
> Israel has been blocking humanatarian aid ships and although I agree hamas fires from civilian buildings so when Israel fights back they look bad. Israel is also very good at fighting very dirty and not playing by the rules and giving the UN the finger to what it's allowed to do.


Back on track-good post.


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## megatron (Apr 21, 2004)

All this fuss over which fake god is right....


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## britbull (Mar 18, 2004)

If you have the time, sit back and watch this.It will bring a level of understanding much needed in this very situation with the world and his brother having an opinion based on what the media show us.


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## Johno23 (Sep 28, 2008)

Well i think Israel do have a right to protect their own citizens. Hamas for a while have been aggravating Israel and now they pretend to be shocked when Israel fight back. When fighting back they have to be careful though as the ppl of Palestine voted for Hamas so it could be very hostile there.

Main reasons for the Israel to attack would be

1. Wipe out Hamas

2. Get revenge for a couple years back when they were ambushed by Hezbollah whilst invading and eventually both sides agreed to a cease-fire which many Arabs in the middle east believed was a victory.

3. Show the Middle East mainly Iran and Syria that this will happen to them if they continue to support any terrorist groups that attack Israel.


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## muscle01 (Nov 6, 2008)

britbull said:


> If you have the time, sit back and watch this.It will bring a level of understanding much needed in this very situation with the world and his brother having an opinion based on what the media show us.


It looked very informative bro, albeit, a bit to long to watch in one go though.

Good find though


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## Robsta (Oct 2, 2005)

megatron said:


> All this fuss over which fake god is right....


Don't they believe in the same god??

This is what baffles me, same god but hate each other....

The way I see it is Jerusalem was always Jewish until the Arabs took it by force. Then when the Jews rightfully take it back, they cry about it and send in the kiddie bombers....They just cannot take a beating these fanatics can they... 

"oh, we lost that fight, right that's it, I'm sending in my nephew with a vest full of marbles. That will show them how tough I am....yeah"

Tossers


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## britbull (Mar 18, 2004)

muscle01 said:


> It looked very informative bro-albeit- a bit to long to watch in one go though.
> 
> What was the conclusion?


Agreed it's a bit long to watch in one go, as for conclusion it's a concise account of the history(one mainstream media has not/will not show)

Check ya PM


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## Robsta (Oct 2, 2005)

Seemed just anti-israeli to me tbh...


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## muscle01 (Nov 6, 2008)

This war will provide future *martyrs* & will go round in circles. Nothing resolved.


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## britbull (Mar 18, 2004)

Robsta said:


> Seemed just anti-israeli to me tbh...


You watched it all???


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## Robsta (Oct 2, 2005)

nope....just enopugh to see it was anti-israeli...


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## britbull (Mar 18, 2004)

I guess people see what they want to see, if only for a few minutes


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## TaintedSoul (May 16, 2007)

Robsta said:


> nope....just enopugh to see it was anti-israeli...


Are you pro Israel Robsta?


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## Slamdog (Jun 11, 2007)

quite surprising seeing as Israel as a state has only existed since 1948.... and before that it was controlled by Britain from 45-48 till the jewish uprising....

I understand the need for a Jewish homeland but it was originally Palestine... i can see the ownership claim of the Palestinians...

hamas though as a political party have dubious morals, unfortunately this affects ordinary citizens.

Israel have reasons to defend themselves, with a fair number of arab leaders in the past threatening to wipe them from the face of the earth, Palestinians have a right to lands they originally occupied prior to ww2.... back to the roman times and before....

who is right... dunno... i know it won't be sorted quickly though.


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## Tasty (Aug 28, 2007)

I'm nowhere near pro-Israeli, they shouldn't be there, end of.

However, Hamas knew exactly what they were doing and Israel had every right not to respond - not to the extent that they did but hey, when the owners of massive Jewish-owned companies mainly from the states pour money into your "state" for you to spend on tanks, jets and missiles you have to use them, right?

It still bewilders me how many women and children have been slaughtered in the name of "Zion".


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## laurie g (Nov 28, 2008)

slam dog and tasty exactly right there its not israel land they are "invaders" so there will always be conflict. we are at fault here for creating this land for them where really we shoulf have looked a bit closer into potential conflicts and cited a terrotory somwhere else, but i do not condone the terrorism


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## muscle01 (Nov 6, 2008)

Tasty said:


> I'm nowhere near pro-Israeli, they shouldn't be there, end of.
> 
> However, Hamas knew exactly what they were doing and Israel had every right not to respond - not to the extent that they did but hey, when the owners of massive Jewish-owned companies mainly from the states pour money into your "state" for you to spend on tanks, jets and missiles you have to use them, right?
> 
> It still bewilders me how many women and children have been slaughtered in the name of "Zion".


And it will continue for as long as there is religion.


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## EXTREME (Aug 5, 2005)

I think the problem is that Israel exists at all. Think of it this way, if Satanists were able to produce ancient text (their version of the Christian or Jewish bible) showing that England was the ancient homeland of Satanism, would all of you pack up and move on? No, you'd fight tooth and nail to keep your home, just like the Palastinians have done for 50 years.

That is what happened to the Palastinians, all the Jews around the world at the end of WW2 complained they had been persecuted and that they should have their biblical homeland as compansation.

PROBLEM 1. the bible is a collection of stories, of metaphors to get a point across, it IS NOT a factual guide to anything so the land belonging to "The Children of Israel" is a story like Moses at the red sea and Daniel in the Lions Den.

PROBLEM 2. on being given the "chosen land" they went on to treat the Palestinians in a way not unlike their faith had been treated in Germany.

PROBLEM 3. being Jewish is a religion, no different to Catholocism, Protestantism, Islam, Hinduism, etc, a religion does not mean you get a country to be based out of. Religion is a form of faith, no more no less.

PROBLEM 4. a lot of the claim to a homeland was based on the holocaust, now I lay myself out to be lambasted but I have read several articles by respected historians who question the validity of the claims made based upon the holocaust.

Israel get away with this bcos as a religion they are a close knit community who wash their hands of anyone who marries outside their culture, thus keeping the bloodline of the Children of Israel strong as most of the rest of us are taught acceptence and marry across race and religion. The importance of success is drilled into Jewish children from day 1 which means they mostly end up in good jobs, many in politics, television, finance, all the positions that carry influence politically and mean they can influence the seats of power. Presidents and Prime Ministers change, top ranking civil servants seldom do allowing their influence to be carried from one set of leaders to the next.

When any similar situations where people have tried to reclaim land they say should be theirs (Yugoslavia, Croatia, Serbia) the rest of the worlds do gooder nations are in there quicker than a poachers dog yet nobody even puts sanctions up against Israel, how does that work?

Given enough time I could dig up more problems that would account for the existence of Israel being the problem but I've sh1t I need to do and I'd like to watch some TV too.

I know many will read this as being anti Semetic but I am no fan of any religion, its a way for the weak to control the strong, no more, no less. There was once a time when the strong led the tribe and made the weak do the menial tasks, then came along religion and turned that around.


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## Zara-Leoni (Mar 12, 2007)

Douglas... :thumbup1:


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## Tasty (Aug 28, 2007)

EXTREME said:


> PROBLEM 1. the bible is a collection of stories, of metaphors to get a point across, it IS NOT a factual guide to anything so the land belonging to "The Children of Israel" is a story like Moses at the red sea and Daniel in the Lions Den.
> 
> PROBLEM 2. on being given the "chosen land" they went on to treat the Palestinians in a way not unlike their faith had been treated in Germany.
> 
> PROBLEM 3. being Jewish is a religion, no different to Catholocism, Protestantism, Islam, Hinduism, etc, a religion does not mean you get a country to be based out of. Religion is a form of faith, no more no less.


Problem 4 raises a few questions but these three are spot on.

Reading into a book of metaphors - written to teach us how to live - a certain way so that they get what they want.

Hypocrisy

Greed!

This isn't a slate on the Jewish religion at all, I know a number of Jewish guys from living in London and working near golders green (haha) that actually don't agree with Zionism and the way Israel conducts itself.


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## ElfinTan (May 23, 2008)

There are a few points I'd like to make here. Firstly I have been directly affected by Isrealis attacks. 2 years ago they bombarded Lebanon and my children live there. It was not a nice feeling I can tell you. When I lived in Lebanon Isrealis war planes would constantly fly over breaking the sound barrier just for the hell of it. They would then destroy the power plants so most of the country was left with no power. Lebanon was destroyed by a bloody stupid civil war and it has many many problems. Over the years that I was there I saw a HUGE change, especially in the infrasture with a new airport, roads, bridges and two years ago this was all destroyed under the pretex of curbing Hisbollah....absolute bllx. Isreal are bullies!

2ndly. It is well known that the extreme faction of Hamas was put together by the Mosad. During the Intifada uprising of the Palestinians during the 80's (if I recall correctly) the Palestinians were getting alot of sympathetic press from the western media. The Intifada was basically frustrated youth venting bu throwing stones at Isrealis tanks. That was all they had. Something had to be done so that Isreal didn't look like the bad guys and voila......Hamas! Fact!

As already stated, there has been a prolonged blockade on Gaza and the West Bank. These people have nothing to lose, nothing at all. I by no means support Hamas but I can understand how the Palestinian people turn to them. No fcker else gives a damn about them. They are refugees in their own country, they are refugees around the world. How many of you have heard of Sabra and Shatilla? I heard an Isrealis politian arguing on TV on Sunday that the people had been warned of attacks and that they should have gone somewhere else when he was questioned about the family of sisters being killed because they lived next to a mosque. He said 'Gaza is a big place!'. Now my idea of a big place and his is obviously somewhat different. Gaza is HALF the size of the Isle of Man with over a million people living there.....oh yeah and they are not aloud to leave. It sickeningly reminds me of the ghettos during the 2nd world war!

What is the answer....I wish I knew!


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## cellaratt (Jul 16, 2008)

...


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## ElfinTan (May 23, 2008)

^^^^Apologies for the spelling!


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## MXD (Jan 23, 2008)

Its all so fuked up.


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## ElfinTan (May 23, 2008)

And that ^^^^ just about sums it up!


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## muscle01 (Nov 6, 2008)

MXD said:


> Its all so fuked up.


I agree bro. The worst carnage is still to come though.


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## Cap'n Beefy (Nov 16, 2008)

Robsta said:


> let's put it another way.....let's say the ruling party of wales (just as an example) were sending rockets over to England and killing civilians....would we put uup with it for years, fcuk no we wouldn't, we'd go in a flattten it...
> 
> It's all about jerusalem, both the muslims and jews want control of it, but imo the Jews were there 1st, always was and so it's rightly theirs... imo anyway.....


If we're going back thousand of years to who was there first, DNA testing has proven that 3000 years ago, the palestinians and the jews were the same people!! So it belongs to both and always has!!

Unless you believe in squatters rights??


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## TaintedSoul (May 16, 2007)

ElfinTan said:


> *2ndly. It is well known that the extreme faction of Hamas was put together by the Mosad.* During the Intifada uprising of the Palestinians during the 80's (if I recall correctly) the Palestinians were getting alot of sympathetic press from the western media. The Intifada was basically frustrated youth venting bu throwing stones at Isrealis tanks. That was all they had. Something had to be done so that Isreal didn't look like the bad guys and voila......Hamas! Fact!


I was going to mention this point.

I would be happy if Israel stood on it's own two feet and supported it's own wars. But it cant, America funds it more than $15billion a year in one lump sum whereas other nations get it quarterly. Now if they manged to fight their own battles financing their own wars I'd say let the best man win. But I dont believe they provide anything to the USA and the UK other than take take take!! We have other allies in the region.

The Balfour declaration was the about creating a homeland for the Jewish people and not displacing others whereas today Israel is grabbing more and more land. Building a massive wall that makes the Berlin wall look like a picket fence. (3.6m vs 8m)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balfour_Declaration_of_1917

Quote:

The *Balfour Declaration of 1917* (dated 2 November 1917) was a classified formal statement of policy by the British government stating that the British government "view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people" with the understanding that "nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country." [1]

They (Goverment) are probably the very reason we have so much trouble with the Arab world. I know there are Jews that dont agree with Zionist agendas but they not speaking up enough to distance themselves from it.


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## Aftershock (Jan 28, 2004)

There is a film called "occupation 101" that is well worth a watch,

The blurb "A thought-provoking and powerful documentary film on the current and historical root causes of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Unlike any other film ever produced on the conflict -- 'Occupation 101' presents a comprehensive analysis of the facts and hidden truths surrounding the never ending controversy and dispels many of its long-perceived myths and misconceptions.

The film also details life under Israeli military rule, the role of the United States in the conflict, and the major obstacles that stand in the way of a lasting and viable peace. The roots of the conflict are explained through first-hand on-the-ground experiences from leading Middle East scholars, peace activists, journalists, religious leaders and humanitarian workers whose voices have too often been suppressed in American media outlets.

The film covers a wide range of topics -- which include -- the first wave of Jewish immigration from Europe in the 1880's, the 1920 tensions, the 1948 war, the 1967 war, the first Intifada of 1987, the Oslo Peace Process, Settlement expansion, the role of the United States Government, the second Intifada of 2000, the separation barrier and the Israeli withdrawal from Gaza, as well as many heart wrenching testimonials from victims of this tragedy. "

You can download it here

http://rapidshare.com/files/97867826/Occupation_101.part1.rar

http://rapidshare.com/files/97838918/Occupation_101.part2.rar

http://rapidshare.com/files/97881099/Occupation_101.part3.rar

http://rapidshare.com/files/97925534/Occupation_101.part4.rar

http://rapidshare.com/files/97966729/Occupation_101.part5.rar


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## muscle01 (Nov 6, 2008)

Good thread-shame it's Rapid


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## TaintedSoul (May 16, 2007)

^^^ Thanks for that, be downloaded in 2 minutes ^^^


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Bump for home.


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## Guest (Jan 6, 2009)

personally a little overkill, the hamas rockets ????? look more like fireworks, not accurate as when they are launched they are all over the place.

This conflict has been going on and on and will not end, i think they both deserve each other.


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## tommy28 (Dec 17, 2007)

Hamas have been responsible for a number of sickening acts of terror but the old saying is true: one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.

The Palestinians have been kicked out of much of their ancestral homeland, penned into a smaller area, and have been subject to various forms of mistreatment by the newly formed state of Israel. Can anyone wonder why there is such fierce anger and resentment aimed at Israel?

Can you imagine if that happened over here in England? I for one would be amongst the first to start throwing a few petrol bombs at our new oppressors!

The thing that stinks about the whole Israel/Palestine situation to me is the fact that due to the large Jewish representation in the ruling classes (especially in the U.S.) the outrageous actions of Israel's military have gone unchecked and unpunished.

If a Muslim state would have acted in such a manner (preferably one with oil deposits lying beneath it) the yanks would have bombed the fcuk out of it years ago!


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## TaintedSoul (May 16, 2007)

tommy28 said:


> The thing that stinks about the whole Israel/Palestine situation to me is the fact that due to the large Jewish representation in the ruling classes (especially in the U.S.) the outrageous actions of Israel's military have gone unchecked and unpunished.
> 
> If a Muslim state would have acted in such a manner (preferably one with oil deposits lying beneath it) the yanks would have bombed the fcuk out of it years ago!


The US senate is mostly Jewish and if any politician doesnt support things Jewish they have the ADL and other Jewish leagues labelling them anti-semiatic. Now no one in politics wants that as thats career suicide.

All the bordering countries hate them... why?


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## robdog (Dec 2, 2003)

TBH i think Israel are wll out of order.

As Tainted said they have a multi billion pound army against Hamas who at the end of the day are fighting for THERE land.

As stated above if a Muslim nation acted in this manner we would have done something about it by now.


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## muscle01 (Nov 6, 2008)

My original pitch still stands - that Hamas is a terrorist organisation and will continue to be unless completley destroyed


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## TaintedSoul (May 16, 2007)

muscle01 said:


> My original pitch still stands - that Hamas is a terrorist organisation and will continue to be unless completley destroyed


Does Hamas fight for the Palestian goverment or also against them?

The terrorist label these days has become so pwerful yet also so meaningless. To arrest someone and lock them away untill you ready to deal with them.. label them a terrorist. If another country is against your policies they support terrorists.


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## tommy28 (Dec 17, 2007)

muscle01 said:


> My original pitch still stands - that Hamas is a terrorist organisation and will continue to be unless completley destroyed


people may label it a terrorist organisation but it is seen by many to be the *only* organisation in support of the Palestinians' (i believe) legitimate right to protect their homeland from hostile invaders.

When the rest of the world imposes it's wishes upon the Palestinians and then doesn't listen to political calls for the restoration of the land it stole, what other avenues but 'terrorism' have they got?

Christ, the yanks even arm Israel to the teeth so they can continue to oppress Palestine.


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## Robsta (Oct 2, 2005)

As I said, I hope Israel wipe them off the planet...They are nothing but scum, hiding behind innocent people to fire rockets, then bleat like sheep when said innocents get targeted....scum all the way


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## offo (Apr 10, 2006)

does that mean us brits yanks and israelis should go head to head against the middle east


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## Robsta (Oct 2, 2005)

lol...The brits and yanks can't beat the fcukin taliban mate.....what hope against an entire region of Muslims....none imo


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## offo (Apr 10, 2006)

yeah but alot of that is going slow slow catch ya monkey if we wanted to absolutely blitz the nation we could. i am sure of it


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## offo (Apr 10, 2006)

i am sure its just a big game


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## Robsta (Oct 2, 2005)

wtf is that in English???? monkey slow slow...wtf??


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## Zara-Leoni (Mar 12, 2007)

offo said:


> yeah but alot of that is going slow slow catch ya monkey if we wanted to absolutely blitz the nation we could. i am sure of it





Robsta said:


> wtf is that in English???? monkey slow slow...wtf??


"Softly softly, catchy monkey...."


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## Zara-Leoni (Mar 12, 2007)

offo said:


> i am sure its just a big game


Not much of a game when people die....


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## offo (Apr 10, 2006)

lol robsta what i meant is the brit forces are trying to be as careful as possible. But i reckon if they wanted to flatten the joint they could in a flash....zara knew what i meant..thank god for women >D


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## Robsta (Oct 2, 2005)

Zara-Leoni said:


> "Softly softly, catchy monkey...."


Fcukin bonkers, the lot of you.... :tongue:


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## offo (Apr 10, 2006)

but a game of politics zara they dont care of the numbers of people dying when they see the number of barrels rolling in


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## Zara-Leoni (Mar 12, 2007)

Robsta said:


> Fcukin bonkers, the lot of you.... :tongue:


Thats rich coming from you Mr Sensible


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## TaintedSoul (May 16, 2007)

Offo has a drinking problem. He should'nt be typing unsupervised!!!


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## offo (Apr 10, 2006)

cheeky SA


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## Zara-Leoni (Mar 12, 2007)

TaintedSoul said:


> Offo has a drinking problem. He should'nt be typing unsupervised!!!


LMFAO.....


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## offo (Apr 10, 2006)

I dont think tainted likes me so much !!!

and zara u caledonian you or should i say pict >D i do jknow the difference do you


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## Julio1436114543 (Nov 27, 2007)

Today on the radio they were discussing Hamas who said " they will kill jews abroad"

That sounds like terrorism to me? :confused1:


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Ouch, the whole thing is just crazy.................

Murder...................

No winners in that one, only losers.

How is murder justified?

If my daughter took a bullet, I would be upset.

But this is what both sides are saying.

It takes two.

Always has.

Always will.

Screw the international community.

What is right?

Who has the say?

Money?

Power?

What about what is right?

Or, what is wrong?

If my neighbor treated me bad (they did this numerous times), I would talk to them.

They had no idea what they did was upsetting me without me confronting them.

Anytime I see a loss of life due to stuff like this....................Pointless...................just pointless.

Every one wants to be on the winning side.

What about the side that the superior side is up against?

I dont want that.

I think of my daughter in these situations.

Both sides, I dont wish harm.

I hate political topics, especially when drinking..................lol

I love all you brothers and sisters here on UKM.

Top blokes and top birds.

Or to you US dudes, top dudes and top chicks...................lol

I find great comfort here........

Life is short......


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## Guest (Jan 7, 2009)

One of the worlds older statesmen a very respected figure was a terrorist,

go on Nelson!!!!!!!.

Hitler first started to identify and then ghettoize the jews in various cities in Europe, hemming them all into one place and building walls around them. I look at the Gaza strip and see little difference. Its a case of the suppressed becoming the suppressors, they had a country formed form them in sympathy for the holocaust and have screwed the palestinians ever since. The amound that died in those awful days is miniscule compared to deaths at the hands of Mao and Stalin.

There are many many fanatical jews around that would do to the arabs as adolf did to them, any lessons learnt ?????.


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## laurie g (Nov 28, 2008)

well israelies and palestinions should line up facing each other on the gazza strip and all give each other a biiiiiig hug- and they shall call it hugging tuesday that will solve the problem:thumb:


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## noel (Dec 30, 2005)

thing is loads of palestinians hated Hamas (got booted out of Gaza city if they didnt partake in or agree with Hamas ideals)

now they support them for standing up to Israel - and so it goes on


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## Incredible Bulk (Sep 19, 2007)

imagine during the 80's, if northern ireland were firing dozens of rockets to british shores every day would you not want some sort of retribution?

taking the stance that these hamas rockets are doing little to no damage is a falacy because most civilians in rocket range spend a long time in their bomb shelters.

hamas choose to hid amoungst civilians like cowards and sewer rats, they want the retaliation by Israel to fuel the propoganda war because civilian deaths will ensue when the return bombardment comes.

Why do you think every government is saying "its a shame but what are you going to do eh?", they want Hamas out.

Liberal newspapers will say "oh the humanity" but the sad truth is that unless Israel does something, the rocket attacks on its civilians towns will continue.


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## Guest (Jan 7, 2009)

> hamas choose to hid amoungst civilians like cowards and sewer rats,


Well its a crowded little place, not that many options there will always be innocents in the crossfire as the isralies know full well , but they still keep on bombing.


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## Incredible Bulk (Sep 19, 2007)

to make an omlette you have to break a few eggs....

Palestinian civilians only have Hamas to blame as this action is in retaliation for constant rocket attacks during a 6 month cease fire that only israel honoured


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## a.notherguy (Nov 17, 2008)

they are both as bad as each other. The only reason hamas are seen as terrorists and not oppressed people fighting for a reason is that the US backs Israel for political reasons.

this doesnt mean im on hamas side - i think both sides are unable to get over what has happened in the past and there will not be peace until things have gotten worse.

There was a missile attack on a UN school yesterday - if anyone else had done this it would of been considered an act of aggression/war by the un.

Hamas firing rockets at someone does not justify targetting a school up full of children.


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## noel (Dec 30, 2005)

but in the 70s and 80s provos would happily run across the boarder to attack UK security forces.... then **** off back to Eire...... we didnt then send harriers / tanks and a cpl of divisions of Armour into the south......

and most people in Northern Ireland lived in houses / flats not refugee camps

very different situation and not really comparable to be honest

and if you consider that we view the french/polish/greek resistance to the Nazis in WW2 as heros they basically (from a military point of view) did the same thing that Hamas are doing


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## Incredible Bulk (Sep 19, 2007)

noel said:


> but in the 70s and 80s provos would happily run across the boarder to attack UK security forces.... then **** off back to Eire...... we didnt then send harriers / tanks and a cpl of divisions of Armour into the south......
> 
> and most people in Northern Ireland lived in houses / flats not refugee camps
> 
> ...


your situation is not the same, Hamas are not crossing the border, they are firing from the streets, playing fields and other areas used by civilians.

You take the stance that Israel was founded on an illegal land grab post WW2 i take it


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## noel (Dec 30, 2005)

please dont think I am anti Israel or massively pro Hamas.... am actually pretty balanced - both commit wrongs- I understand why the Palestinains do what they do - and are aggrieved, and also admire the Israelis for backing up their threats, and also know people who have suffered (Lebanese from Israeli attacks and Israelis from bombings)

and most agree its all a bit of a waste of life to be at each others throats - but simply too many on each side dont want peace (well not enough to have it hold anyhow) as well as other parties who have various agendas that fit with a conflict


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## Incredible Bulk (Sep 19, 2007)

if you look at the past for examples, the greatest was during WW2 when the allies tried to pin point bombing raids against the german industry to halt their war effort. Germany on the other hand was carpet bombing london, coventry, liverpool etc

Pinpoint attacks were cumbersome and lacked the effeciency requried to slow the german war machine down. The action to avoid civilian deaths limited the targets the allies could destroy.

The moment the allies switched to carpet bombing (dresden for example), germany was shocked to its core.

I know i am in the minority with my views but you cannot be concerned with civilian deaths when you are dealing with someone who takes no consideration themselves.

The moral high ground might be sweeter but it offers no more advantages to the men on the streets carrying out the orders.


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## paulo (Feb 17, 2007)

bit like a sledgehammer to crack a walnut,i agree that they are wrong to fire rockets from civilian areas,however two wrongs dont make a right and the kiling of loads of innocents reinforces the hatred of all things american/israeli and by default---us,im going to egypt in feb for holiday,maybe not a good time for white squarehead look! been asked before if i am amaerican!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Incredible Bulk (Sep 19, 2007)

when russia went into georgia it was a massive shock and awe exercise

do you think georgia will rise up again?


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## noel (Dec 30, 2005)

Jewish people have lived in Palestine for years - well before the creation of the State

as have Christians and Muslims

Hamas agenda is wrong in my opinion - and a moderate peaceful solution would be ideal but equally ****ty.mad are the settlers who cause trouble and are consider nutters even by most jewish people - both sides have extreme right wingers who think each other are filth/rats fill in words of hatred

not gonna get too bogged down in it as we wont solve it on here


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## Incredible Bulk (Sep 19, 2007)

its like when people approach in you in the high street asking if you can spare 5 minutes for cancer research

ok, but i dont think we'll get much done


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## offo (Apr 10, 2006)

its funny everyone going on about israel shouldnt be there in the first place as it was palestine in the first place..cuz technically english people shouldnt be in england and americans shouldnt be in america and australians in australia if you think that way >P


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## offo (Apr 10, 2006)

I would like to say its none of our business and we shouldn't get involved but the fact of it is. Is that we started the whole business and americans have funded it. It could break out into a third world war if the rest of the arabs get involved. I have always thought that the americans try and stop israel from fighting arabs as they are afraid that they will all unite against them?

I just want to know if the rest of europe will ever get seriously involved the french and germans probably have a lot to offer to be fair


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## noel (Dec 30, 2005)

France have a big muslim population (north africa) so in their interests to do something politically plus sarkozy seems to want to be seem as a player - but bar some words cant do very much in the grand scheme of things

Germany - well basically in laymans terms was responsible for Israel

UK - we helped set it up but sorry we dont carry much sway on it anymore - uncce Sam is the player here and the Arab nations

and lets be honest no one will do much - certainly no military action unless the Israeli nuclear facilities come under threat -

and to be fair if we are cynical

we happily let most african nations kill a few hundred thousand of each other in terrible violence (Rwanada/Congo/Somalie etal) the outcry over what is essentially less than 1000 people is a bit hypocrytical


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## offo (Apr 10, 2006)

the british empire and french and even spanish have truly messed up the world..it may never be right again


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## geeby112 (Mar 15, 2008)

good posts from you guys:thumbup1:

i have to say the land was owned by palestinians (muslims and jews) in the 18th century. The jews around europe needed shelter so they was accepted to come to palestine (still the arab population was around 97% to jews 3%)

i have family in Nablus and have seen first hand whats it like there, what i saw the media here does not even know the quarter of it, this only comes to light whan a UN worker gets killed. Tom Hurndall was snipered down trying to help kids, an american worker Rachael Corrie was bulldozed down trying to protect a family (they are begining not to respect there U.S and british friends) remeber that reporter who was filming bulldozing in action the camera guy had a UN badge on him, spoke english to the soldiers and next thing you know he was shot? but yet billions $$$ are handed every year to them.

You have to remember the palestinians spend hours at check point queues just to get food, searched at gun point, they dont have health care, hospitals are jam packed and are not allowed to use the more up to date ones, imagine being turned away with your child in your arms bleeding to death?

Who else could they turn to? all they have is Hamas shouting down their ears for revenge, imagine a woman lost all her family?what has she got left, you dont get no social benfits there or anything, they will brainwash her to blow herself up, you have to remember for someone to become a suicide bomber what has that person seen or been through first. (in no way do i condone this as its a sick act

innocent die daily, some for no reason at all, in my own eyes i saw two soldiers shoot dead a teenager then they started taking pics??? the mum came out screaming and the soldier bashed her over the head with his rifle. the place is messed up yet no solution has come to for this long.

Imagine if that happened to us one day here, your at your house with family and your roof starts caving in??bulldozers are tearing your house up and you have no help? all the powerful countries turn a blind eye?off course you will defend, and these are the people who gave the jews a place to be safe, now they have taken over, almost like ethnic cleansing.

before anyone says, i am not anti jews, my best friends are jews so is my ex, even they dont agree on whats going on. im only speaking from what ive seen.


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## TaintedSoul (May 16, 2007)

Incredible Bulk said:


> when russia went into georgia it was a massive shock and awe exercise
> 
> do you think georgia will rise up again?


But the world condemed Russia? Who has climbed out of the cold war and rising to be on of the most powerful nations.

We backed little Georgia due to control of a gaspipe.


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## Incredible Bulk (Sep 19, 2007)

TaintedSoul said:


> But the world condemed Russia? Who has climbed out of the cold war and rising to be on of the most powerful nations.
> 
> We backed little Georgia due to control of a gaspipe.


condemnation is a fruitless exercise used nothing more to placate the population of any given country.

To be seen to be doing nothing is taken as support for the said country under scrutiny.

To sabre rattle is the norm...


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## robdog (Dec 2, 2003)

geeby112 said:


> good posts from you guys:thumbup1:
> 
> i have to say the land was owned by palestinians (muslims and jews) in the 18th century. The jews around europe needed shelter so they was accepted to come to palestine (still the arab population was around 97% to jews 3%)
> 
> ...


Excellent post.

I also agree with what was said earlier that the only reason Hamas are called terrorists is because Israel are backed by the US. Its total hypocracy to let Israel get away with what it does to then call people fighting back terrorists.

If i came to any of your houses and said im claiming this as mine and you have no say in the matter i bet you would all fight back with any means at your disposal.

The media coverage for a whole will be biased, agreed they are saying Israel should stop etc but come on.

Israel have a massive strong army vs Palastinians with a few rockets.

I mean should the Palastinains just give in? Dont give me theres other ways of achieving there goals because there isnt, Israel will never let them have whats theres and just want to wipe them off the planet.


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## Robsta (Oct 2, 2005)

robdog said:


> .
> 
> I mean should the Palastinains just give in? Dont give me theres other ways of achieving there goals because there isnt, Israel will never let them have whats theres and just want to wipe them off the planet.


Amen to that....The sooner they do it the better....


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## Johno23 (Sep 28, 2008)

noel said:


> France have a big muslim population (north africa) so in their interests to do something politically plus sarkozy seems to want to be seem as a player - but bar some words cant do very much in the grand scheme of things
> 
> Germany - well basically in laymans terms was responsible for Israel
> 
> ...


Agreed, everyday in different parts of Africa innocent ppl r being killed because of wars etc. Think its unfair how the news has this Israel/Gaza situation as number 1 story when much worse things are happening else where.


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## itraininthedark (Oct 3, 2007)

1. Israel should not be there. the treaty didnot include the gaza strip

2. Hamas shouldnot be firing rockets nomatter what the size into israel

3. Israel will no tloosse this war, as its a 'base' for the west to deal withthe middle east

4. If people treated each other with respect and showed a little compassion for one another the whoel world would be a better place

5. Hamas should stop being cowards if they want a fight rush the israelies dotn bring it to the civilians and let them bare the brunt of the damage.

6. There's always a solution to every problem no matter how difficult.


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## Zara-Leoni (Mar 12, 2007)

offo said:


> I dont think tainted likes me so much !!!
> 
> and zara u caledonian you or should i say pict >D i do jknow the difference do you


I have a Miss Caledonia title actually so that answers that 



Johno23 said:


> Agreed, everyday in different parts of Africa innocent ppl r being killed because of wars etc. Think its unfair how the news has this Israel/Gaza situation as number 1 story when much worse things are happening else where.


Agree entirely mate.... sickens me some of the awful things that are overlooked....


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## TaintedSoul (May 16, 2007)

itraininthedark said:


> 3. Israel will no tloosse this war, *as its a 'base' for the west to deal withthe middle east*


This is the main reason Israel is not going anywhere. Every new politician is seen making there visit to Israel to show their loyalty.

Did you not see Sarah Palin trying to prove that in her office somewhere is an Israeli flag. Why the hell should an American senator have to show loyalty to Israel?????????????? :cursing: :cursing: :cursing: :cursing: :cursing:

I always thought the pledge of alliegience meant to America not other countries.

""I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands: one Nation under God, indivisible, With Liberty and Justice for all.""

I'm sure for what Israel costs the United States they could have found a cheaper and more honest ally in the region to develop a strong base.


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## Tasty (Aug 28, 2007)

itraininthedark said:


> 1. Israel should not be there. the treaty didnot include the gaza strip
> 
> 2. Hamas shouldnot be firing rockets nomatter what the size into israel
> 
> ...


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## itraininthedark (Oct 3, 2007)

Tasty said:


> :lol: :lol:what makes you think that? djlfl ;asdfj;ajf


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## tommy28 (Dec 17, 2007)

geeby112 said:


> good posts from you guys:thumbup1:
> 
> i have to say the land was owned by palestinians (muslims and jews) in the 18th century. The jews around europe needed shelter so they was accepted to come to palestine (still the arab population was around 97% to jews 3%)
> 
> ...


Fantastic post. Reps comin your way, sir!


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## muscle01 (Nov 6, 2008)

Militants fired at least three rockets into northern Israel from Lebanon today, prompting the Israeli military to retaliate and raising fears that the 13-day-old war in Gaza could spread.


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## TaintedSoul (May 16, 2007)

Now they have to fight two fronts? It's getting interesting.


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## noel (Dec 30, 2005)

or they have got Mossad to arrange so all of a sudden it looks like Israel is in trouble ;-)

reckon they do a few more days of operations then back off and (not publically) then let egypt or someone arrange/broker a new peace process - looking like they helped stop Israeli continued operations (when in fact Israel had already finished;-)

ever the sceptic and military historian eh


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## albie (Mar 16, 2007)

romper stomper said:


> personally a little overkill, the hamas rockets ????? look more like fireworks, not accurate as when they are launched they are all over the place.


Maybe not picking a fight with someone with bigger,better and more accurate weapons should be a Hamas thought of the day.

I dont condone Israels actions,right from claiming Palestine as their land following WW2 - but if some git was lobbing rockets at my house, i'd put a stop to it.

On the topic of Afghanistan,in a post on this thread earlier, i'd suggest reading Butcher and Bolt by David Loyn. Dont think we will win that one.


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## muscle01 (Nov 6, 2008)

albie said:


> Maybe not picking a fight with someone with bigger,better and more accurate weapons should be a Hamas thought of the day.
> 
> I dont condone Israels actions,right from claiming Palestine as their land following WW2 - but if some git was lobbing rockets at my house, i'd put a stop to it.
> 
> On the topic of Afghanistan,in a post on this thread earlier, i'd suggest reading Butcher and Bolt by David Loyn. Dont think we will win that one.


We can not win in Afghanistan-ever-period.


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## EXTREME (Aug 5, 2005)

Robsta you said "As I said, I hope Israel wipe them off the planet...They are nothing but scum, hiding behind innocent people to fire rockets, then bleat like sheep when said innocents get targeted....scum all the way"

I'm no fan of Islam and the problems the religion causes in Christian countries but I'd love to see the Muslim countries unite and obliterate Israel. The complain about the Nazis, yet they believe in treating the Palestinians they way their people were treated in Nazi Germany.

There is something else, as Britain and America are Israeli supporters/sympathisers and these nations media tell us on the news whats happening don't you all think that we're getting a one sided view of it all making the Israelis look less like a nation commiting genocide than they actually are?

We can't get the truth about whats happening to our own troops in Afghanistan and Iraq so how can we expect the truth on a massacre our government supports in a country where we don't stand to lose any troops.

Could the answer be to let the countries around Israel, who are all involved in this conflict thru having to take refugees and who will be losing friends and family in Gaza, get involved and level the playing field by having the Israeli army face real troops, tanks and weapons?

The Israeli army is one of the best and most used in the world, let them fight a fairer fight against other armies which aren't as good as theirs so the greater numbers of the new opponents would be negated by the Israelis superior battle skills?

If that was allowed to go ahead I think a lot of the worlds problems would be eradicated.


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## noel (Dec 30, 2005)

Could the answer be to let the countries around Israel, who are all involved in this conflict thru having to take refugees and who will be losing friends and family in Gaza, get involved and level the playing field by having the Israeli army face real troops, tanks and weapons?

The Israeli army is one of the best and most used in the world, let them fight a fairer fight against other armies which aren't as good as theirs so the greater numbers of the new opponents would be negated by the Israelis superior battle skills?

unfortunately Egypt tried that and got seen off by some tasty Israeli tank tactics

as for Israeli army being the best - hmmm in the region yes, but as they found out in Lebanon having a reservist army who lacked up to date equipment and tactics saw them a bit humiliated, hence them having about 40 diffferent investigations/enquiries into training/equipment etc etc.

as a side not too lets not forget HAMAS also persecute/torture/extort THEIR OWN people too - lots of infighting within the various factions/gangs in Gaza - which is kind of on hold for the moment while they fght Israel (bit like say football holligans in this country having a tear up on a saturday but then all letting it drop while they follow england in a tournament)


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## Robsta (Oct 2, 2005)

EXTREME said:


> *Robsta you said "As I said, I hope Israel wipe them off the planet...They are nothing but scum, hiding behind innocent people to fire rockets, then bleat like sheep when said innocents get targeted....scum all the way"*
> 
> *I'm no fan of Islam and the problems the religion causes in Christian countries but I'd love to see the Muslim countries unite and obliterate Israel. The complain about the Nazis, yet they believe in treating the Palestinians they way their people were treated in Nazi Germany.*
> 
> ...


Yes I did and I stand by it....If Hamas were not hiding behind innocents firing rockets repeatedly, then Israel would not be in Gaza now.....PERIOD....if Hamas want to be treated normally then negotiate like every other normal fcukin country does, not fire rockets ffs....

Also, i don't see them putting Palestinians in gas chambers do you??


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## itraininthedark (Oct 3, 2007)

muscle01 said:


> We can not win in Afghanistan-ever-period.


the war in afghanistan *is* 'win-able' the key factor is the removal of pakistan. pakistan is where all these terror guys are hangig out and being recruited. on the BBC news website it states that pakistans highest intelligence agency has close connections to al qaeda.. also there are testamants from many people in the disputed pakistan regions from locals saying that people are being recruited in mosques to fight. Once pakistan is removed from the situation, then numbers of alqaeda will rapidly drop the taleban will have no new supply of fighters and the war in afghanistan will eventually be won.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Man, if the other countries around Isreal teamed up against them, they would be wiped out.

Isreal has some of the best troups and some of the most trained troops in the world, they have some pretty damn good intilligence too, not to mention the use of US satalites.....lol

Hardly leveling the playing field when we add in their nuke capabilities.

Remember that reactor that went online in Iran?

That I believe was just one plane that took that one out.

Lets not even talk about their airforce, I think they are undefeated.


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## TaintedSoul (May 16, 2007)

They go on about Iran yet no nuclear inspectors are allowed into check all their facilities. They not supposed to have nukes yet will probably cry holocaust if you tried to take them away and say they need to defend themselves. The holocaust has given the Jewish more power than any other race.

Video of Dimona : Israels nuke facility,


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## Robsta (Oct 2, 2005)

TaintedSoul said:


> They go on about Iran yet no nuclear inspectors are allowed into check all their facilities. They not supposed to have nukes yet will probably cry holocaust if you tried to take them away and say they need to defend themselves. *The holocaust has given the Jewish more power than any other race.*
> 
> Video of Dimona : Israels nuke facility,


I'm sure that makes them feel marvelous....knowing 6 million died just so they could have more power!!!!....ffs


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## TaintedSoul (May 16, 2007)

Robsta said:


> I'm sure that makes them feel marvelous....knowing 6 million died just so they could have more power!!!!....ffs


Prove to me 6 million died and I'll comment on this.


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## Robsta (Oct 2, 2005)

ok, give ot take a few.....but millions DID die.....or are you one of these who live in denial???


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## TaintedSoul (May 16, 2007)

Robsta said:


> ok, give ot take a few.....but millions DID die.....or are you one of these who live in denial???


Actually they say way more than 6 million died if you count in the other races but no one seems to care about those. If you take 6 million bricks and pile them up you have a big fck off pile. Now take 6million bodies and pile them up. Visualise it, what kind of human mountain are we talking about here?

And then lastly.... Where are these bodies buried?


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## treb92 (Jun 10, 2008)

Robsta said:


> *If hamas use civilian sites to send rockets over, then they are the ones out of order knowing that israel will flatten those areas...They know this and want it, that way the world will blame israel and not hamas*....Israel has the right to defend it's citizens and if this is the only way to stop rocket attacks theen fair play to them...How long have they put up with it?? fcukin years that's how long...I hope israel wipe hamas off the map...


Totally agree with this. Hamas are the ones harming their own community by hiding weapons in mosques and schools.

Israel will not back down in my opinion after the holocaust and what not there is no way they are going to be seen to be defeated by hamas-hole.


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## TaintedSoul (May 16, 2007)

Another thing Stalin made Hitler look like a school kid. Estimates start at 20 million and go as high as 100million which is highly unrealistic. Most likely between 20million and 60million people killed in Russia during Stalins rule who is Jewish and the ones killed were christians/muslims etc... etc...

Why are we not forced to recognise that? Why is it illegal to research or deny the holocaust. Truth does not fear investigation?

There is something weird about the holocaust that happened in Germany otherwise we would be free to debate whereas Ernst Zundel and others are sitting in prison today cause they stood up and denied it. Since when do you go to jail for stating what you think!!

I dont know what to believe I have tried reading myself, I spent numerous nights sitting with my ex and her father who were Jewish trying to get their view points and I'm still not sure what happened.


----------



## cellaratt (Jul 16, 2008)

TaintedSoul said:


> Another thing Stalin made Hitler look like a school kid. Estimates start at 20 million and go as high as 100million which is highly unrealistic. Most likely between 20million and 60million people killed in Russia during Stalins rule who is Jewish and the ones killed were christians/muslims etc... etc...
> 
> Why are we not forced to recognise that? *Why is it illegal to research or deny the holocaust. **Really..?* Truth does not fear investigation?
> 
> ...


----------



## TaintedSoul (May 16, 2007)

Yeah it is starting to get that way but we going off topic here. I think the chap was deported from USA or Canada to Germany? It goes a little deeeper that just saying his views but he never harmed anyone, only printed his questionable material.

Search Ernst Zundel and you should find enough to read.


----------



## PHHead (Aug 20, 2008)

TaintedSoul said:


> They go on about Iran yet no nuclear inspectors are allowed into check all their facilities. They not supposed to have nukes yet will probably cry holocaust if you tried to take them away and say they need to defend themselves. The holocaust has given the Jewish more power than any other race.
> 
> Video of Dimona : Israels nuke facility,


Thats a bold statement to make mate but your intitled to your opinion, I do not agree though.

So what if Israel have Nukes, we have them, the Americans have them, the French, Russians, Chinese, India etc, it doesn't mean they are an Evil Superpower!

After all, out of all the hostile nations that have Nukes we Westerners are the only ones to ever use them on inocent civilians!

IMO Israel is not a hostile nation what they are doing has been a long time coming and alot of suffering has been endured before they turned to this agressive action.

I do personally think that a less heavy handed aproach would be better though like special forces insursion, rather than bombing raids as no one wants to see civilians killed and hosipitals and schools burning but at the end of the day no war is won without calaterall damage and never has or will be!

I am not Jewish or have any Jewish friends or family but I also thought your comment about how many died in the Holocost was tackless to say the least, wether x milloin or y million died it does not matter, it still was one of the most awful crimes on humanity and IMO the subject should be treated with a little more repsect as don't forget the other millions that died fighting to end that horiffic dark time in our history!


----------



## TaintedSoul (May 16, 2007)

PHHead said:


> Thats a bold statement to make mate but your intitled to your opinion, I do not agree though.
> 
> So what if Israel have Nukes, we have them, the Americans have them, the French, Russians, Chinese, India etc, it doesn't mean they are an Evil Superpower!


Considering they are such close allies with America why are they not part of the nuclear treaty. Oh they refused to sign it thats right. They gave the world the finger and carried on doing what they want.

Anyway I was talking about Zionist using the Holocaust as leverage for their personnel gains. Something that everyone always overlooks and will always come back with exactly what you have said instead looking at the bigger current picture.

For the record the official plaque at Auschwitz used to say 4million and now reads 1.5 million died. Where did the 6million go that most have been taught.


----------



## PHHead (Aug 20, 2008)

TaintedSoul said:


> Considering they are such close allies with America why are they not part of the nuclear treaty. Oh they refused to sign it thats right. They gave the world the finger and carried on doing what they want.


Fair point but it works boths ways, everyone in the UN said we shouldn't go into Iraq but we still did, does that make us the evil empire buliding invaders...........no it doesn't, it just means we where doing what we thought was right at the time and we are still all allies!

As I say your intitled to your opinion mate andI'm not having a go but I just always wonder what the motivation is for people like yourself to disprove the history on the holocost ect.


----------



## MXD (Jan 23, 2008)

Our culture is masked by lies and deceit the persuit of truth is an admirable and necessary task. People who just accept things are easy to controll..

I am not taking sides either.


----------



## TaintedSoul (May 16, 2007)

PHHead said:


> As I say your intitled to your opinion mate andI'm not having a go but I just always wonder what the motivation is for people like yourself to disprove the history on the holocost ect.


To deny the holocaust would be to say it never happen. I have never said I dont believe the holocaust never happen. Hell I wasnt there!! I said there are numerous people denying it that are getting arrested. And I find it weird you can get arrested for denying something. I also said I dont know what to believe regarding the facts on it.

I said I questioned the numbers we have had drummed into our head and 6million people to me logistically seems impossible.


----------



## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

I think all cultures are based on lies.

How else would anyone buy them?

What is fair?, and to whome is it fair?

Look, Id rather Isreal have nukes than Hamas.

Just my sentiments.

It takes two to argue.


----------



## cellaratt (Jul 16, 2008)

TaintedSoul said:


> It goes a little deeeper that just saying his views but he never harmed anyone, only printed his questionable material.
> 
> I only did a quick search but I'm not sure if your statement can be taken in whole...Neo-Nazi in America is a baaaad thing....
> 
> Search Ernst Zundel and you should find enough to read.


I would like to do a little more searching on this guy before I post anymore....

Note:

Disclaimer:

I don't expect to get jumped on for expressing any views in this thread...This is obviously a touchy subject and I won't appreiciate getting negative remarks made to me just because my country of origin...example: you fecking American this, you fecking Americans that...if thats how this convo turns I will let the door hit me in the *ss on the way out...


----------



## MXD (Jan 23, 2008)

cellaratt said:


> I would like to do a little more searching on this guy before I post anymore....
> 
> Note:
> 
> ...


This board would never let that happen, thts why its so good and we can have a thread like this.

Much love peace and respect to all uk-m bro's :thumbup1:


----------



## EXTREME (Aug 5, 2005)

Robsta, the israelis built a big wall around Gaza thus making it thr biggest prison camp in the world, even tho Gaza is nothing to do with the land the Jews were granted at the end of WW2.

THey don't need to gas people, they just bulldoze their houses and bomb them to a degree its not safe to liove there.

lets get it straight being Jewish is a religion, like catholicism, protestenism, bhuddisn, hinduism, none of which means you get a free country - Israel should not be there end of story.

Your a mate of PScarbs who he speaks highly of so I'm being polite, if someone came to your house and said "5000 years ago god promised us this house" would you move? If they then tried to strong arm you out what would you do, probably much thr same as Hamas.

The nation of israel has a terrible human rights record, just like the chinese did but the chinese got flak, the israelis don't get the same sh1t. They are a nast evil country getting away with murder.

How would Britain have been viewed if we'd went after the Ira the same way, not good considering the Yanks supported them too thru Noraid.


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## Dwaine Chambers (Sep 14, 2008)

I heard Hamas take loads of gear.


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## Robsta (Oct 2, 2005)

EXTREME said:


> Robsta, the israelis built a big wall around Gaza thus making it thr biggest prison camp in the world, even tho Gaza is nothing to do with the land the Jews were granted at the end of WW2.
> 
> THey don't need to gas people, they just bulldoze their houses and bomb them to a degree its not safe to liove there.
> 
> ...


I see your points Doug I just totally disagree with them...But you don't have to be polite just because I know Paul......


----------



## TaintedSoul (May 16, 2007)

PHHead said:


> As I say your intitled to your opinion mate andI'm not having a go but I just always wonder what the motivation is for people like yourself to disprove the history on the holocost ect.


I'm adding one last thing to this and then I'm done with it, as I feel I was not quite clear on what I have read. This is a vast deep subject and I really dont want to get into it. It's a very touchy subject for people who are not even Jewish or German.

From my understanding you have two camps, the believers and the non-believers.

The believers say Hitlers rounded up the Jews and gased them in chambers. Figures start at 6million and now officially showing 1.5million.

The non-believers say Hitler rounded up the Jews and they still died but not how we have been told. One theory was disease broke out due to poor conditions from supplies not getting through.

*** Now I have only posted what I read, I dont have a firm belief on any of this and if I had to choose it would be the first one ***

Now end of that topic.. back to Hamas.


----------



## Tasty (Aug 28, 2007)

Dwaine Chambers said:


> I heard Hamas take loads of gear.


Haha I love this site, everybody's supposedly on it!

"You see Mo Mowlam's program on prostitutes the other day?"

"Yeah, Mo aint even natural, heard she's bang on the gear"


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## geeby112 (Mar 15, 2008)

Robsta - yes I did and I stand by it....If Hamas were not hiding behind innocents firing rockets repeatedly, then Israel would not be in Gaza now.....PERIOD....if Hamas want to be treated normally then negotiate like every other normal fcukin country does, not fire rockets ffs....

*Also, i don't see them putting Palestinians in gas chambers do you??*

Nope, they shoot you point blank, blow you knee caps off, use concrete blocks to break your arms with.While the BBC just reports hamas firing rockets etc etc

You cant negotiate with people who want you out in the 1st place.


----------



## EXTREME (Aug 5, 2005)

Check this out, its funny but possibly closer to the truth than we all know.

http://www.fknnewz.com/view/227/no-heros-for-israel/


----------



## ARNIE (Dec 19, 2006)

americas support isnt unconditional,

hamas' is an unrelenting and jew and christian hating political party they want the jews out and dont recognise their right to exist! saying this the jews can be as bad but they dont show kiddies dressed in suicide bombing outfits,but i dont think as long as religion is part of the hamas or palastinian politics then there wil never be any peace.......................as it says in the koran ,

"Believers, take neither Jews nor Christians for your friends." (Surah 5:51)

"Fight against such as those to whom the Scriptures were given [Jews and Christians]...until they pay tribute out of hand and are utterly subdued." (Surah 9:27-)


----------



## geeby112 (Mar 15, 2008)

islam talks about peace, the statments from the surahs you mentioned usually are translated by extremists aswell, some surahs will say similar ONLY if its a war on islam:thumbup1:


----------



## ARNIE (Dec 19, 2006)

geeby112 said:


> islam talks about peace, the statments from the surahs you mentioned usually are translated by extremists aswell, some surahs will say similar ONLY if its a war on islam:thumbup1:


 yeah but using the koran to justify a war against anyone/country or other relegion must be wrong?, if the political process was secular only then i think there could be peace as a book which was written over 1200 years ago would not control peoples lives and views when it comes to modern day politics.


----------



## PHHead (Aug 20, 2008)

TaintedSoul said:


> I'm adding one last thing to this and then I'm done with it, as I feel I was not quite clear on what I have read. This is a vast deep subject and I really dont want to get into it. It's a very touchy subject for people who are not even Jewish or German.
> 
> From my understanding you have two camps, the believers and the non-believers.
> 
> ...


Ok mate well I'm adding this then I'm done, millions WHERE gased then burned in huge ovens and pits in many concentration camps and yes alot of them would have died of desease too but the majority WHERE killed!

They also killed thousands of Jews in many horrific medical experiments for scienctific advancement some of which is used today by NASA.

I will say again there WHERE millions killed wether you want to believe it or not, I have lived in Germany twice as I was in the Forces as was my farther and you can still visist the death camps and see the gas chambers and ovens, go there see for yourself!

Of course they will never be sure of how many where killed as its hard to count piles of ash, why do you think they burned them...........it was so if they lost the war no one would know what they had done, if anything there was more killed than docucmented!

I have said my piece now and will add no more to this thread and again like I said before you are intitled to your opinion.


----------



## geeby112 (Mar 15, 2008)

*
ARNIE
*
*Re: Hamas*

Quote:


Originally Posted by *geeby112* 

islam talks about peace, the statments from the surahs you mentioned usually are translated by extremists aswell, some surahs will say similar ONLY if its a war on islam:thumbup1:



yeah but using the koran to justify a war against anyone/country or other relegion must be wrong?, if the political process was secular only then i think there could be peace as a book which was written over 1200 years ago would not control peoples lives and views when it comes to modern day politics. 

People may start to think whether Islam is a "violent religion". The media says it is, people say it is, but I have a hard time believing it.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" /><o></o>

In the Qur'an it states that Muslims should not fight, unless in defense.<o></o>

The Qur'an was also written thousands of years ago in a different time,<o></o>

place, and culture than we know today. Probably a time which we can never fully comprehend.However, just because the Qur'an says certain things, does not mean every Muslim on the face of the earth lives by these guidelines. Every person does what he or she feels is right.In the case of Islam(which happens to have 1 billion plus followers), not every Muslim will believe the exact same thing. It's impossible for every person to be told one thing, and live their life in the black-and-white lines of those instructions, there will be variations and moderations<o></o>

<o> </o>

.So why do people say Islam is a violent religion, when a few Muslim extremists become enveloped in violent acts? To judge many based on the actions of a few is short-sighted, and exactly how ignorance is spread. What we need to do, is learn about Islam first hand and from the source. Not by living among people who say they are believers, or by believing the media, but by reading from the root of Islam; the Qur'an. As I said before the truth of Islam won't be found in the people who say they are Muslims. They interpret their religion in the way they find it best, and best suits them, but they have their own 'bias'

:thumbup1:


----------



## ARNIE (Dec 19, 2006)

geeby112 said:


> *
> ARNIE
> *
> *Re: Hamas*
> ...


 good post mate, but the koran was written 600 plus years after jesus was a boy, which is one reason why it is such a political book, it had to contend with judaism and christianity which were already established as relegions.

So to get followers had to appeal to people and give them what they desired in life,

but the situation in isreal and palastine will not be solved untill people let politics be politics and let religion remain a private individual matter.....!!


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## geeby112 (Mar 15, 2008)

^^^ agree Arnie:thumbup1: the quran is a book as a way of life (similar to religions in that area)

in my opinion they need to get rid of the liberals in congress.

religion and politics should remain seperate but seeing as israel have bombed mosques its starting to get out of hand.


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## offo (Apr 10, 2006)

u all have same god just worship him in different ways get over it

where is the evidence to suggest jesus was just a prophet in the quran of yours and is only 600 years old its still young..where was the quran warranted the right religion


----------



## offo (Apr 10, 2006)

not knocking ya just wanted to know what makes the quran right and if hte bible was partly right why wudnt u follow it instead of using a book thats jsut 600 years old


----------



## Iron19 (Jan 18, 2008)

A1PHA said:


> Compete?? lol no you're completely wrong.
> 
> Both musa (moses) and Jesus were prophet of god.
> 
> ...


Who are you to say that christian and jewish faiths warped the message of prophets such as jesus and moses. Unfortunatly i dont see how any religion such as christianity, Islam etc can claim to be the all knowing religion when they are based around pagan religions that stretch back alot further despite what your writings may proclaim.


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## robdog (Dec 2, 2003)

Just because Israel dont gas palastinians does not mean its not genocide imo. The method of killing is not the point its the fact if Israel had there way they would wipe Palastinians off the planet.

The media is biased and corrupt im sure everyone will agree with that so what you see and hear on the news isnt alwasy the truth.

I see it as Isreal(massive army with nukes, airforce etc etc) against Hamas who are defending there land with a few rockets.

If someone said they were taking my home id whatever it took to get it back, period.


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## offo (Apr 10, 2006)

yeah and the arabs would wipe israel off the face of the planet their has been numerous threats


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## Robsta (Oct 2, 2005)

Robdog's a lefty tree hugger for those that don't know..... 

But I love him in my "special" way.....  :lol:


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## Robsta (Oct 2, 2005)

A1PHA said:


> lol no, i think you've been watching the da vinci code too much


I think you've been brainwashed by family and mosques too much.....


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## Iron19 (Jan 18, 2008)

A1PHA said:


> lol no, i think you've been watching the da vinci code too much


Really, once again you show an uneducated view. There is alot more surronding your religion than what you are just led to belive.


----------



## robdog (Dec 2, 2003)

Robsta said:


> Robdog's a lefty tree hugger for those that don't know.....
> 
> But I love him in my "special" way.....  :lol:


Not anymore mate im moving to Gazza. 

Joking aside i think its good that different points of view can be expressed without people falling out.

The fact my views are right and correct is neither here nor there lmao:beer:


----------



## offo (Apr 10, 2006)

its funny how islam christanity and the jews have the same god but all claim to have the almight one on their side how does that work...i know alot about christianty not catholic or prodestent other and its complete mind control


----------



## robdog (Dec 2, 2003)

offo said:


> yeah and the arabs would wipe israel off the face of the planet their has been numerous threats


Maybe be so but threats are just that i can only comment on what is actually occuring.


----------



## Tall (Aug 14, 2007)

Being 100% honest - I don't think these type of threads are good for the board.

They just encourage ill feeling. IMHO 

To everyone who's spending time commenting on this thread - take your anger out in the squat rack, then maybe we'll have some more 500lb+ Squatters.

Just my 2p.

Neg away


----------



## offo (Apr 10, 2006)

robdog said:


> Maybe be so but threats are just that i can only comment on what is actually occuring.


if they had hte ability to do so they would..but israel would kick most countries **** fair play


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## offo (Apr 10, 2006)

tall they are jsut discussions to be honest might help people be informed


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## Zara-Leoni (Mar 12, 2007)

Tall said:


> Being 100% honest - I don't think these type of threads are good for the board.
> 
> They just encourage ill feeling. IMHO
> 
> ...


Well said - its pointless and creates negative energy.

Nothing that anyone writes on here is going to change the situation one little bit.


----------



## robdog (Dec 2, 2003)

I think they make the board what it is, a friendly place where the majority of issues can be discussed without ill feeling.

Things need to be debated and discussed, then after the debate everyone see's im right we can all go back to the squat rack.


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## Kezz (Sep 3, 2007)

There is only one god...... THOR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## offo (Apr 10, 2006)

i am with robdog on this to be fair i think people get to jumpy and easily offended


----------



## Zara-Leoni (Mar 12, 2007)

offo said:


> tall they are jsut discussions to be honest might help people be informed


SOME of the posts offer an insight into the history and politics etc, and some viewpoints are interesting, but most of it is just people doggedly trying to get everyone to agree with their point of view on the matter.


----------



## Zara-Leoni (Mar 12, 2007)

Kezz said:


> There is only one god...... ZARA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Ah.... my faithful subject......


----------



## offo (Apr 10, 2006)

its good that everything can be discussed cuz we get to learn all sorts.. such as all hot white chicks dig asians...scottish men are cross dressers... >Pthe list is endless lol


----------



## Iron19 (Jan 18, 2008)

A1PHA said:


> Well then since i'm so uneducated why dont you enlighten me and tell me about the correlation and mutual beliefs shared by abrahimic religions and paganism?
> 
> One is monotheistic and the other is largely polytheisitc....the two groups are fundmentally different.


The groups may be fundamentally different i do not deny that. But if you had taken into account my original post i stated that it is wrong for you to claim that the christian faith and jewish faith warped the messages of prophets.

As it is wrong for a christian to claim the writings of Islam are wrong. The whole view that one religion is better than another is pathetic when as i have already stated pagan religions were around for far longer before any of these religious writings would have you believe.

They did as well have some degree of influence upon these now mainstream religions. Yes, i am not denying that religions such as Chrisitanity etc concentrate on the concept of a single God whilst Pagan religions take into view a number of Gods and Goddesses you are right there.

But if you had taken my whole point into view then you would know that i pointed out they are not original religions. Pagan religions are and they did despite what you may have been told within your mosque have influence.


----------



## Kezz (Sep 3, 2007)

Zara-Leoni said:


> Ah.... my faithful subject......


All hail mistress ZARA!!!


----------



## robdog (Dec 2, 2003)

Kezz said:


> All hail mistress ZARA!!!


Seconded lol


----------



## Zara-Leoni (Mar 12, 2007)

Kezz said:


> All hail mistress ZARA!!!


I'd be a great deity.......

I'd make the world a lovely place.....

Supplements would be free

There would be awesome gyms on every corner

We'd all have mesomorphic genetics

The sun would shine every day

There would never be a shortage of parking spaces

DOMS would not exist

There would be no hunger/appetite issues when dieting/bulking

Lifting heavy would never hurt

We would all live our lives injury free

And women would not be allowed to drink alcohol

Oh yeah..... and no disease, famine, poverty, we'd have world peace etc etc yady yady yady.....


----------



## Zara-Leoni (Mar 12, 2007)

robdog said:


> Seconded lol


ohhhhh.... any more of this and I could set up a dungeon....


----------



## robdog (Dec 2, 2003)

Zara-Leoni said:


> ohhhhh.... any more of this and I could set up a dungeon....


Let me know if you do hun i need to be punished as ive been a naughty boy


----------



## Kezz (Sep 3, 2007)

yeah so have i !!


----------



## englishman78 (Sep 18, 2008)

100% behind Israel in it's war against Barbarism.


----------



## offo (Apr 10, 2006)

zara would shoot u lot and say dnt call me babe


----------



## 6108 (Jun 26, 2007)

I wish palestina and all other f***ing countries like would be clean of the map forever.


----------



## robdog (Dec 2, 2003)

hotelcalifornia said:


> I wish palestina and all other f***ing countries like would be clean of the map forever.


Very constructive and a feasable.


----------



## robdog (Dec 2, 2003)

englishman78 said:


> 100% behind Israel in it's war against Barbarism.


Pot, Kettle and Black spring to mind.


----------



## englishman78 (Sep 18, 2008)

robdog said:


> Pot, Kettle and Black spring to mind.


Why?

Israel is doing what is needed to survive as a nation.


----------



## ARNIE (Dec 19, 2006)

A1PHA said:


> Compete?? lol no you're completely wrong.
> 
> Both musa (moses) and Jesus were prophet of god.
> 
> ...


 IF THERE WERE ALREADY 2 OTHER MAIN RELIGIONS AND THEN ANOTHER STARTED THEN THEY COMPETE,

as it was most arabs were pagans or christians at that time,

which is the reason why muhammad decided to get rid of all the pagan gods except two of the favorites of the pagans so the would convert and still be happy to worship their favorites aswell as allah,

at a later date muhammad had said he was tricked by the devil in the form of gabriel, who had told him that these pagan gods were real gods also, anyway they were removed and this is the main theme in the book the satanic verses.

the gen is if muhammad got tricked once and admitted it then how many times was he tricked and did not find out????? makes you wonder doesnt it??.


----------



## Iron19 (Jan 18, 2008)

ARNIE said:


> IF THERE WERE ALREADY 2 OTHER MAIN RELIGIONS AND THEN ANOTHER STARTED THEN THEY COMPETE,
> 
> as it was most arabs were pagans or christians at that time,
> 
> ...


Exactly the point i was making only to be thrown two ignorant replys back. Reps


----------



## offo (Apr 10, 2006)

thats why no religion can be followed cuz none can possibly be 100% correct...if religion is correct lol


----------



## englishman78 (Sep 18, 2008)

ARNIE said:


> IF THERE WERE ALREADY 2 OTHER MAIN RELIGIONS AND THEN ANOTHER STARTED THEN THEY COMPETE,
> 
> as it was most arabs were pagans or christians at that time,
> 
> ...


Remember this is a man who had sex with a 9 year old girl.


----------



## Robsta (Oct 2, 2005)

Zara-Leoni said:


> I'd be a great deity.......
> 
> I'd make the world a lovely place.....
> 
> ...


That's your best idea yet....


----------



## ARNIE (Dec 19, 2006)

Iron19 said:


> Exactly the point i was making only to be thrown two ignorant replys back. Reps


 why thankyou

i shall rep you back


----------



## Robsta (Oct 2, 2005)

It is a fact is it not that muhammed married a (I thought 12 yr old) young girl.....


----------



## offo (Apr 10, 2006)

i also heard he had sex with a child in some cave or something, but i think its only sh'i who believe that innit?


----------



## offo (Apr 10, 2006)

how old was she?


----------



## ARNIE (Dec 19, 2006)

"(2116) 'A'ishah said : The Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) married me when I was seven years old. The narrator Sulaiman said : Or six years. He had intercourse with me when I was nine years old." Sunan Abu Dawud vol.2 book 5 ch.700 no.2116 p.569


----------



## robdog (Dec 2, 2003)

englishman78 said:


> Why?
> 
> Israel is doing what is needed to survive as a nation.


Ok, they need to destroy Palastine after they have robbed it anyway with a multi billion pound army just because Palastinians took offence to getting there land taken off them makes it ok.

Mind you, Hamas fire a few rockets at them, how dare they, anyone would think it was there land.

Im sure Hamas could destroy Israel:rolleyes:


----------



## ARNIE (Dec 19, 2006)

"(2116) 'A'ishah said : The Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) married me when I was seven years old. The narrator Sulaiman said : Or six years. He had intercourse with me when I was nine years old." Sunan Abu Dawud vol.2 book 5 ch.700 no.2116 p.569


----------



## offo (Apr 10, 2006)

wasnt it quite common though.. well the romans could get married at 10 years old..i dont think it was viewed as wrong back then was it ?i know there is a big time difference between rome and muhammed


----------



## Suprakill4 (Jul 11, 2008)

A1PHA said:


> No, aisha was older than 12.





ARNIE said:


> "(2116) 'A'ishah said : The Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) married me when I was seven years old. The narrator Sulaiman said : Or six years. He had intercourse with me when I was nine years old." Sunan Abu Dawud vol.2 book 5 ch.700 no.2116 p.569


Good find you google god!! :thumb:


----------



## Robsta (Oct 2, 2005)

robdog said:


> Ok, they need to destroy Palastine after they have robbed it anyway with a multi billion pound army just because Palastinians took offence to getting there land taken off them makes it ok.
> 
> Mind you, Hamas fire a few rockets at them, how dare they, anyone would think it was there land.
> 
> Im sure Hamas could destroy Israel:rolleyes:


Doggy...you're missing the point...

These rockets still kill and maime even if they are not million pound missiles...

The fact is they've been doing it for years. The ruling party of these lands allows it, so Israel has a DUTY to keep it's citizens safe....

I hope they fukcing hammer the sh!t out Hamas before they pull out...well they are anyway, so good luck to them...Maybe these cowards will think twice before hiding behind children in schools etc....or sending in kids with vests packed full of marbles...


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## offo (Apr 10, 2006)

israel said they are gonna get even more aggessive over the next few days


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## Robsta (Oct 2, 2005)

ARNIE said:


> "(2116) 'A'ishah said : The Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) married me when I was seven years old. The narrator Sulaiman said : Or six years. He had intercourse with me when I was nine years old." Sunan Abu Dawud vol.2 book 5 ch.700 no.2116 p.569


Oh dear....turns out he was a kiddie fiddler.... :cursing: and this is someone people worship???

At least Jesus's bird was old enough, albeit a scrubber...


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## Robsta (Oct 2, 2005)

offo said:


> israel said they are gonna get even more aggessive over the next few days


woohooo.....go israel,go israel, go israel:thumb:


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## englishman78 (Sep 18, 2008)

robdog said:


> Ok, they need to destroy Palastine after they have robbed it anyway with a multi billion pound army just because Palastinians took offence to getting there land taken off them makes it ok.
> 
> Mind you, Hamas fire a few rockets at them, how dare they, anyone would think it was there land.
> 
> Im sure Hamas could destroy Israel:rolleyes:


Look at it this way.

Who would treat you better as an Englishman?

The Israeli or the Arab?


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## englishman78 (Sep 18, 2008)

offo said:


> wasnt it quite common though.. well the romans could get married at 10 years old..i dont think it was viewed as wrong back then was it ?i know there is a big time difference between rome and muhammed


The Muslims dont even see it wrong now.


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## offo (Apr 10, 2006)

thats not a good thing but if they are gna uproot hamas then that is a good thing


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## Robsta (Oct 2, 2005)

A1PHA said:


> Well the palestinean civillian death toll has already topped 800, so that isn't a good thing.


very true....no civilian death tol;l is any good....But unfortunately, if an organisation hides amongst civilians. Then they themselves are allowing these civilians to be targeted, as they damn well know this is the area that will be hit in a reprisal attack...

that's my view anyways....


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## ARNIE (Dec 19, 2006)

A1PHA said:


> Which website did you get that from?


 there are lots of informative web sites avaliable on all subjects mate,

my muslim mate showed me this one

http://www.apostatesofislam.com/

make of it what you will!!


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## englishman78 (Sep 18, 2008)

A1PHA said:


> Too vague, not everyone has the same views and opinions - is the israeli a zionist? Is the arab secular?
> 
> You can't make sweeping generalisations.


I like Zionists they are like English Nationalists people with passion and pride.

No doubt you and your friends feel the same.

Which means it becomes a case of who shall win.

The story of life and nature played out before us all.


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## ARNIE (Dec 19, 2006)

Robsta said:


> very true....no civilian death tol;l is any good....But unfortunately, if an organisation hides amongst civilians. Then they themselves are allowing these civilians to be targeted, as they damn well know this is the area that will be hit in a reprisal attack...
> 
> that's my view anyways....


 i agree with this, if you fire rockets from civilian areas be it schools or housing estates then you reap what you sow,

if you stash weapons and amunition in a mosque then you must want that mosque destroyed???

it happened in a uk mosque when they found guns and fake passports etc.

a place of political rants and passport forging..........no?


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## KRS (Nov 27, 2008)

Mohamhed was 54 when he consummated his marriage to Aisha who was 9 at the time.

That was quite commonplace in those times, the problem is it is still practised in muslim countries today as it was the example laid out by their prophet.

I think in Ayatolla Khomaini, that irainian nutter wrote a law on it too



> A man can have sexual pleasure from a child as young as a baby. However he should not penetrate, sodomising the child is OK. If the man penetrates and damages the child then he should be responsible for her subsistence all her life. This girl, however does not count as one of his four permanent wives. The man will not be eligible to marry the girls sister."
> 
> From Khomeini's book, "Tahrirolvasyleh", fourth volume, Darol Elm, Gom, Iran, 1990 Excerpt: Page (1)


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## offo (Apr 10, 2006)

englishman78 said:


> I like Zionists they are like English Nationalists people with passion and pride.
> 
> No doubt you and your friends feel the same.
> 
> ...


are you an english nationalist?


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## geeby112 (Mar 15, 2008)

where did u find these info about profit having intercourse with young girls?????


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## Robsta (Oct 2, 2005)

KRS said:


> Mohamhed was 54 when he consummated his marriage to Aisha who was 9 at the time.
> 
> That was quite commonplace in those times, the problem is it is still practised in muslim countries today as it was the example laid out by their prophet.
> 
> I think in Ayatolla Khomaini, that irainian nutter wrote a law on it too


omg...how the fcuk can these people live with themselves....fcukin kiddie fiddling perverts.....burn them alive and send them to meet their god...that's what I say...


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## geeby112 (Mar 15, 2008)

if that was the case with bombing hamas among the civillians, then why did the army hurdle all the woman, kids, in a building for safety when next day the fired a missile at it?


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## ARNIE (Dec 19, 2006)

this tells a story


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## Zara-Leoni (Mar 12, 2007)

offo said:


> zara would shoot u lot and say dnt call me babe


You're learning...... :wink:



ARNIE said:


> IF THERE WERE ALREADY 2 OTHER MAIN RELIGIONS AND THEN ANOTHER STARTED THEN THEY COMPETE,
> 
> as it was most arabs were pagans or christians at that time,
> 
> ...


This is just another example of how over the years people have made up stories, fables and tales to suit their own ends, and call it gospel.... (or whatever may be the case in their particular religion)



Robsta said:


> That's your best idea yet....


Ah hush you.... :tongue:

Well this debate is getting a bit more civillised now at least...

My grandfather was an MP and served in the palestinian police in the 40's. He never went into detail about what he saw, but it affected him deeply. (actually i have an uncle - his son obviously - who died over there and is apparently buried in bethlehem... however thats irrelevant)

When he died, we were clearing out some of the stuff from the cupboards in his room, and I (aged 15) found a shoebox full of black and white photos from his time over there. I dont profess to know the story behind any of them, but I understand now why he was the way he was..... it was traumatic enough seeing the photos.

I dont honestly think we should be obsessing over the history of events and who is right or wrong here.... what we need is a peaceful solution.

Enough people have died, its been going on for far too long.

I wish everyone would focus on a peaceful resolution instead of who is right or wrong and getting everyone else to agree with their point of view.

Peace :cool2:


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## ARNIE (Dec 19, 2006)

it is impossible to have peace with fanatics ,click the youtube link in my previous post to watch hamas in their own words.


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## geeby112 (Mar 15, 2008)

Theres going to be fanatics as its been over 50 years of killing, off course there is going to be hatred. i agree with Zara theres been enough killings now.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Robsta* 

omg...how the fcuk can these people live with themselves....fcukin kiddie fiddling perverts.....burn them alive and send them to meet their god...that's what I say...



Muhammad married his employer - who was fourty years old - when he was twenty five. What's wrong with that?

He loved her so much. She was his only wife - at a time when men could marry more than one - for the next twenty-five years. That means that he remained with her - a woman fifteen years his senior - until the age of fifty. FIFTY.

Khadeejah died at the age of sixty-five. Muhammad was heartbroken.

As the head of the Islamic nation, it was part of his role to establish connections with other tribes. Muhammad, after the death of the woman he always loved more than any, married from various tribes. Most of the women he married were not young at all. Some were the widows of close companions. He was taking care of them. You must rise above Western culture which always equates marriage with sex.

Aisha, the youngest, was the daughter of his closest companion - Abu bakr - who would become the first person to lead the Islamic state after Muhammad. She was nine when the contract was written. She was thirteen when consummated. She was also loved dearly by Muhammad, and she, Aisha, became the one who gave us more of Muhammad's teachings than any other companion. She was a great scholar of Islam. Now, Muhammad married her by way of cementing the relationship between he and Aisha and he and her father. That is what marriage meant to the Arabs back then. And if it happens to be that such a marriage was looked upon as acceptable at that time and place, then where do we get off passing judgement based upon our time and place? Our norms? (paedo's dont marry their victims)


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## ARNIE (Dec 19, 2006)

geeby112 said:


> Theres going to be fanatics as its been over 50 years of killing, off course there is going to be hatred. i agree with Zara theres been enough killings now.
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


some other things which happened?

One who claims to be a messenger of God is expected to live a saintly life. He must not be given to lust, he must not be a sexual pervert, and he must not be a rapist, a highway robber, a war criminal, a mass murderer or an assassin. One who claims to be a messenger of God must have a superior character. He must stand above the vices of the people of his time. Yet Muhammad's life is that of a gangster godfather. He raided merchant caravans, looted innocent people, massacred entire male populations and enslaved the women and children. He raped the women captured in war after killing their husbands and told his followers that it is okay to have sex with their captives and their "right hand possessions" (Quran 33:50) He assassinated those who criticized him and executed them when he came to power and became de facto despot of Arabia. Muhammad was bereft of human compassion. He was an obsessed man with his dreams of grandiosity and could not forgive those who stood in his way. Muhammad was a narcissist like Hitler, Saddam or Stalin. He was astute and knew how to manipulate people, but his emotional intelligence was less evolved than that of a 6-year-old child. He simply could not feel the pain of others. He brutally massacred thousands of innocent people and pillaged their wealth. His ambitions were big and as a narcissist he honestly believed he is entitled to do as he pleased and commit all sorts of crimes and his evil deeds are justified.

geeby this is a generalisation but overall these reasons are why hamas is inherently wrong and should be removed,

then let the people have leaders who really want to move forward imo.


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## offo (Apr 10, 2006)

Zara-Leoni said:


> You're learning...... :wink:
> 
> well zara i like i think you are a top lass :thumb:


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## geeby112 (Mar 15, 2008)

lol Arnie

your getting your info from false fabrication, that surah you mentioned has nothing to do with islam and his teachings:rolleyes: like me finding a site saying jesus was this and that. the internet translations will have may people writing it who hate islam and just put what they feel. pick up the book and learn the transcripts in english you will see:thumbup1:

he consumated his marriage at 13, as soon as she reached puberty (this happens in africa, china, eastern europe, parts of remote america) and remember this was long long time ago, these days we will cry out its wrong, i bet in Rome and europe they were different aswell. these days i do not know one arab guy or even remotely heard of marrying young girls.

Hamas to the palestinian people are the leaders, you have to remeber they have no voice to speak for them.


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## offo (Apr 10, 2006)

no but how could u follow a leader like that is arnie#s point plus muhammed was doing all the things that make it impossible for him to be a prophet of god...but u cant believe any info u hear so dont believe anything that was thought up 100s of years ago


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## KRS (Nov 27, 2008)

A1PHA said:


> We're getting really of topic now.
> 
> This is essentially a political dispute, the quran verses being quoted have virtually nothing to do with it.


I agree it is getting slightly off topic. However, Hamas is really a religious organisation rather than a political one and Hamas use the koran several times in their charter. If they hold to the islamic conviction that the Jews will be eliminated before judgement day then I can't see much progress until Hamas themselves are eliminated.



> Article 7 of the Hamas Covenant states the following: "The Day of Judgement will not come about until Muslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Muslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharqad tree would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Muslem).


These guys were blowing themselves up on Israeli buses and inside restaurants in the name of religion and Palestine long before this latest bust up.


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## geeby112 (Mar 15, 2008)

no leader just we pray to God and follow teachings from the prophet, i see his point what he saying but the info he's getting is false:confused1:


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## Zara-Leoni (Mar 12, 2007)

offo said:


> Only human eh mate? :lol:


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## geeby112 (Mar 15, 2008)

the quran does not state to kill anyone at all, people like hamas using the quran to wage war is wrong:cursing:


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## offo (Apr 10, 2006)

how do ya mean little miss leoni?


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## KRS (Nov 27, 2008)

A1PHA said:


> They have completely misinterprated the quran.
> 
> To end this extremism it's pointless targeting insignificant militant groups like hamas. You would have to target the wahabi fundmentalists who preach the hate and use it as a political tool.


So what does this verse actually mean then? :confused1:



> The last hour will not come before the Muslims fight the Jews and the Muslims kill them, so that Jews will hide behind stones and trees and the Stone and the tree will say, O Muslim, O servant of God! There is a Jew behind me; come and kill him. The only exception will be the box-thorn for it is one of the trees of the Jews. Sahih Muslim, Book 40, Number 6985


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## iveyAg (Jan 4, 2009)

the only problem with any religious texts is that they are open to interpretation. You would have thought they would have tried to make stuff like: DON'T KILL PEOPLE abundantly clear lol. And also not contradict themselves.


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## geeby112 (Mar 15, 2008)

**EDIT**Don't need to see this sh1t**EDIT**

cant find the video its heartbreaking, obviously now as a cover up they saying it was fake:confused1: :confused1:


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## Zara-Leoni (Mar 12, 2007)

offo said:


> how do ya mean little miss leoni?


ie - its no wonder you think that, you're only human after all


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## Kezz (Sep 3, 2007)

A1pha how old are you??


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## offo (Apr 10, 2006)

Zara-Leoni said:


> ie - its no wonder you think that, you're only human after all


yeahh silly me not the sharpest knife in the drawer >P


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

no more links to any one being killed this is a bodybuilding board not a place to air religious or political grievances.


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## Robbyg (Feb 25, 2008)

I personally think its very sad using religion to rage war its quite sad when people get sucked into all the lies religious leaders preach about any religion.


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## KRS (Nov 27, 2008)

A1PHA said:


> What verse?
> 
> Think about this for a second - the quran is in arabic...
> 
> The syntax of semitic languages are completely different to germanic languages. It's impossible to translate it accurately and there are guaranteed to be some misinterpretations. That's why you can't take any credible and accurate information regarding arabic scriptures from any english translations.


Are you a Muslim?

What does that verse mean to you?


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## KRS (Nov 27, 2008)

A1PHA said:


> It doesn't mean anything. It completely lacks validity unless it's in arabic.
> 
> Another problem is that people tend to view many aspects of verses quite literally when a lot of the time it's metaphorical. Or they'll just try to completely take things out of context.
> 
> Like earlier about the whole 'paedo' issue. I doubt anyone here can speak arabic, so can you prove or dissprove anything that is you read? No. That's why you should be skeptical and take everything with a pinch of salt. Don't believe everything you read on your pseudo-factual, biased websites (Most of these websites make unspecified claims; they deliberately spread disinfo to further their propaganda).


So out off all Muslims how many actually speak koranic arabic? Not many I'm sure.

If I were a Jew and there were people blowing themselves up all over the place quoting the koran, would I be sceptical of their intention, take it with a pinch of salt?

Would I try and learn koranic arabic and debate with them?

I'd like to see protests in the street calling for the Hamas extremists to stop misinterpreting the koran from all the so called moderates.


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## Zara-Leoni (Mar 12, 2007)

Bare Tonk said:


> Who cares about the middle east??? whole godforsaken subcontinent should be nuked


I see you took Talls advice then?

Novel turnaround...........


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## offo (Apr 10, 2006)

lol bare tonks honest mate dont say stuff like that on the board its not a great start as we already have had it out with one noobie today u may be saved the persecution lol


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## Kezz (Sep 3, 2007)

Bare Tonk said:


> Who cares about the middle east??? whole godforsaken subcontinent should be nuked


 hahahah have some green reps :thumb:


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## Kezz (Sep 3, 2007)

no probs mate, let it all out


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## ElfinTan (May 23, 2008)

Who cares????? I do! My children live there!


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## Robsta (Oct 2, 2005)

where do they live Tan, Israel or Gaza????


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## geeby112 (Mar 15, 2008)

yep nice one *Bare Tonk and Kezz*, good to see well educated people on this board NOT!!!

They take their water

Burn their olive trees

Destroy thei houses

Take their jobs

Steal their land

Imprison their fathers

Kill their mothers

Starve them all

Humiliate them

*BUT*...

They are to blame for firing a rockey blame


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## TaintedSoul (May 16, 2007)

Robsta said:


> where do they live Tan, Israel or Gaza????


Lebanon I think she mentioned earlier in the thread.


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## geeby112 (Mar 15, 2008)

"We have to kill all Palestinians unless they a resigned to live here as slaves"

Chairman Helibrum of the Committe for the Re-election of General Shlomo Lahat, the mayor of Tel Aviv, October 1983


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## Macca 1976 (Sep 16, 2008)

War Sucks, but Hamas have been aiming to kill as many Jews as possible with there rocket attacks, so I think Israel are right to protect there people but once again innocent lives have been taken its a sad sad situation and I for one wish it could be ended without blood shed.


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## Guest (Jan 12, 2009)

what about all the suicide bombings as well as those farty rockets ????


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## TaintedSoul (May 16, 2007)

geeby112 said:


> "We have to kill all Palestinians unless they a resigned to live here as slaves"
> 
> Chairman Helibrum of the Committe for the Re-election of General Shlomo Lahat, the mayor of Tel Aviv, October 1983


What you want to do is look up David Ben Gurion. Israels first prime minister serving from 2 November 1955 - 21 June 1963.

Search for "David Ben Gurion quotes". If this is the attitude the first prime minister had then it's no wonder the region wants to see Israel removed.

Also there was a book written "*Ben-Gurion And The Palestinian Arabs, From Peace to War by Shabtai Teveth" *Have not read it myself but alot of the quotes I am referring to come from this.

Let's not forget that many Jews live in Iran peacefully so we cant paint them all with the same brush. It's the Zionist regime in Israel that is the problem here and those that support it. The goal is for a greater Israel so more land grabbing will eventaully take place.


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## ARNIE (Dec 19, 2006)

in a democracy the population votes and gets its leaders,

then surley if the isrealis take over more palastinian lands and all the palastinians vote for their man, then the isrealis will be the minority in isreal???? democracy in action


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## geeby112 (Mar 15, 2008)

true they need their freedom of speech and rights:thumbup1:


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## geeby112 (Mar 15, 2008)

if you live in carnage, see death everyday, live around terror, you families being blown to bits, you'd say screw you im going to kill as many of you b4stards as i can, your mind set wont be all there, all you see would be revenge mate.

check this link its about jews against the zionists, interesting read

http://www.nkusa.org/


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## ElfinTan (May 23, 2008)

TaintedSoul said:


> Lebanon I think she mentioned earlier in the thread.


That's right Tainted. And I lived there myself on and off of nearly 10 years so my experiences, opinions and understanding are personal and 1st hand. My childen still live there (long story) so when Isreal were 'targeting' Hisbollah 2 years ago it wasn't a particulary pleasant experience to watch the news and not knowing if you are watching your kids been blasted off the face off the earth or to see districts you used to shop in and know people flattened to the ground.

I do NOT support Hamas in anyway but I do support the Palestinian people who no one else politically gives a sh*t about. They are refugees in their own countryand are pro rata the most displaced people. Where ever they turn all they get is the door shut in their face and this includes other arab nations. Is it really so suprising that they support the only organisation that is keeping their voice heard. I repeat that they have NOTHING AT ALL TO LOSE!

And all this cr*p of quotes from the Quran. I think you will find just as many christian palastinian supporters of Hamas as you would muslims. Arab does not automatically equate to muslim which just proves the ignorance as a whole about the region. As mentioned many jews live in places like Iran and you will actually also find that throughout history the jewish people have actually lived side by side with muslims as it was one of the only faiths that allowed them to freely practice their religion and offer them protection.

One other thing that puzzles me is that people are also oblivious to the fact that Isreali leaders have int he past been wanted for war crimes but no one is interested in the pursuit of these charges for fear of 'rocking the boat'. Look up Sabre and Shatilla seeings as many here seem to be proficient in finding 'their' opinions on the t'interweb. Surely finding out basic facts surrounding the whole conflict should be simple.


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## geeby112 (Mar 15, 2008)

^^^ spot on :thumbup1:


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## noel (Dec 30, 2005)

its quite funny how many people have a Sun readers view of the world, same people who say americans are so thick etc but yet are the first to have a view on global politics and history that they have gained from a glance through the 'currant bun' lol

bit of topic but as you rightly say its a mixture of religions, much like calling an Iranian an arab - they arent, they are persian and speak farsi not arabic, - and that within Israel you also have non jews, and even jews who are no where near as hard line as the govt which speaks for them!


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## ElfinTan (May 23, 2008)

PMSL @ Current Bun...tis all true I tell you:whistling:


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## muscle01 (Nov 6, 2008)

Qoute:

' The incoming Obama administration is prepared to abandon George Bush's *doctrine of isolating Hamas by establishing a channel to the Islamist organisation, sources close to the transition team say.

The move to open contacts with Hamas, which could be initiated through the US intelligence services, would represent a definitive break with the Bush *presidency's ostracising of the group. The state department has designated Hamas a terrorist organisation, and in 2006 *Congress passed a law banning US financial aid to the group.

The Guardian has spoken to three *people with knowledge of the discussions in the Obama camp. There is no talk of Obama approving direct diplomatic negotiations with Hamas early on, but he is being urged by advisers to initiate low-level or clandestine approaches, and there is growing recognition in Washington that the policy of ostracising Hamas is counter-productive. A tested course would be to start *contacts through Hamas and the US intelligence services, similar to the secret process through which the US engaged with the PLO in the 1970s. Israel did not become aware of the contacts until much later.

A UN resolution was agreed last night at the UN, calling for an immediate and unconditional ceasefire between Hamas and Israeli forces in Gaza. The resolution was passed, though the US, represented by secretary of state Condoleezza Rice, abstained.

Richard Haass, a diplomat under both Bush presidents who was named by a number of news organisations this week as Obama's choice for Middle East envoy, supports low-level contacts with Hamas provided there is a ceasefire in place and a Hamas-Fatah reconciliation emerges.

Another potential contender for a *foreign policy role in the Obama administration suggested that the president-elect would not be bound by the Bush doctrine of isolating Hamas.

"This is going to be an administration that is committed to negotiating with *critical parties on critical issues," the source said.

There are a number of options that would avoid a politically toxic scenario for Obama of seeming to give legitimacy to Hamas.

"Secret envoys, multilateral six-party talk-like approaches. The total isolation of Hamas that we promulgated under Bush is going to end," said Steve Clemons, the director of the American Strategy *Programme at the New America *Foundation. "You could do something through the Europeans. You could invent a structure that is multilateral. It is going to be hard for the neocons to swallow," he said. "I think it is going to happen."

But one Middle East expert close to the transition team said: "It is highly unlikely that they will be public about it."

The two weeks since Israel began its military campaign against Gaza have heightened anticipation about how Obama intends to deal with the Middle East. He adopted a strongly pro-Israel position during the election campaign, as did his erstwhile opponent and choice for secretary of state, Hillary Clinton. But it is widely thought Obama would adopt a more even-handed approach once he is president.

His main priority now, in the remaining days before his inauguration, is to ensure the crisis does not rob him of the chance to set his own foreign policy agenda, rather than merely react to events.

"We will be perceived to be weak and feckless if we are perceived to be on the margins, unable to persuade the Israelis, unable to work with the international community to end this," said Aaron David Miller, a former state department adviser on the Middle East.

"Unless he is prepared to adopt a policy that is tougher, fairer and smarter than both of his predecessors you might as well hang a closed-for-the-season sign on any chance of America playing an effective role in defusing the current crisis or the broader crisis," he said.

Obama has defined himself in part by his willingness to talk to America's enemies. But the president-elect would be wary of being seen to give legitimacy to Hamas as a consequence of the war in Gaza.

Bruce Hoffman, a *counterterrorism expert at George*town University's school of foreign *service, said it was unlikely that Obama would move to initiate contacts with Hamas unless the radical faction in Damascus was crippled by the conflict in Gaza. "This would really be dependent on Hamas's military wing having suffered a real, almost decisive, drubbing."

Even with such caveats, there is *growing agreement, among Republicans as well as Democrats, on the need to engage Hamas to achieve a sustainable peace in the Middle East - even among Obama's close advisers. In an article published on Wednesday on the website Foreign Affairs, but apparently written before the fighting in Gaza, Haass, who is president of the Council on Foreign Relations, wrote: "If the ceasefire between Israel and Hamas continues to hold and a Hamas-PA reconciliation emerges, the Obama administration should deal with the joint Palestinian leadership and authorise low-level contact between US officials and Hamas in Gaza." The article was written with Martin Indyk, a former US ambassador to Israel and an adviser to Hillary Clinton.

Obama has said repeatedly that *restoring America's image in the world would rank among the top priorities of his administration, and there has been widespread praise for his choice of Clinton as secretary of state and Jim Jones, the former Marine Corps commandant, as his national security adviser.

He is expected to demonstrate that commitment to charting a new foreign policy within days when he is expected to name a roster of envoys to take charge of key foreign policy areas: Iran, the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, India-Pakistan, and North Korea.

Obama has frustrated and confused those who had been looking for a more evenhanded approach to the Israeli-*Palestinian conflict by his refusal to make any substantive comment on Israel's *military campaign on Gaza, nearly two weeks on.

He said on Wednesday: "We cannot be sending a message to the world that there are two different administrations conducting foreign policy.

"Until I take office, it would be *imprudent of me to start sending out *signals that somehow we are running *foreign policy when I am not legally authorised to do so."

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Source: The Guardian


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