# Post workout carbs.....some questions????



## ElfinTan (May 23, 2008)

Ok I've been thinking a wee bit about post workout carbs as I've found a few 'grey' areas. 1st off how precisely would you work out the amount needed post workout? Everything else in BB is so precise (eg x amount per lb bodyweight) when it comes to diet regarding working out macro requirements but it seems that rough amounts are bantered around regarding PWO carbs amounts? I have searched but not found any formula pertaining to this although I'm sure there is one out there!

y per lb?????

Also as the carbs are needed to replenish depleted glycogen stores then surely the amounts must vary depending on the workout. Surely a full leg session would require more glycogen replenishment than a delt workout or a bi/tri session for example.

Discuss.......


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## sizar (Nov 13, 2008)

you work it according to how much prot you use in your shaker.. .. best ratio is 2:1 .. i'm being coach by brit champ 2nd he uses the same ratio i take 40g whey 70-80 carb maltho or bottle of multipower carb drink hope this helps


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## hilly (Jan 19, 2008)

to be honest this replenishing glycogen stores pwo doesnt make much sense to me. Unless one is dieting pre contest or eating very low carb i find it hard to believe any1s glycogen levels will deplete to much with any bodybuilding style workout were their is an actual need to get some sugar in their quick.

I think the insulin spike is more important altho from my reading recently this can be achieved somewhat with high dose leucine which to me is more favourable.

regarding the amount for me its always been worked into my total amounts for the day. its not a specific amount ill just take my totals and divide them over 7, 6 lots into meals and 1 lot for pwo.

I switched from malto to banana and oats pwo and didnt notice any difference.

I much prefer sipping aminos/glut as i train for recovery. MY new only realy use for pwo is for extra cals when bulking. Now im dieting im just using iso


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## hilly (Jan 19, 2008)

sizar said:


> you work it according to how much prot you use in your shaker.. .. best ratio is 2:1 .. i'm being coach by brit champ 2nd he uses the same ratio i take 40g whey 70-80 carb maltho or bottle of multipower carb drink hope this helps


could you tell me why the best ratio is 2:1 if you dont mind?


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## Guest (Jan 31, 2010)

I have a banana straight away then whey and oats 15 mins later..


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## sizar (Nov 13, 2008)

to cause high insulin level over the catabolic state that happens after excericsing .. even the meal after the shake.. can have some higher carb in der to cause insuling again because within that hour after training body can utilize all the nutritent much better than any other time of the day


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## hilly (Jan 19, 2008)

sizar said:


> to cause high insulin level over the catabolic state that happens after excericsing .. even the meal after the shake.. can have some higher carb in der to cause insuling again because within that hour after training body can utilize all the nutritent much better than any other time of the day


i no what the benefits of having ure insulin spiking will do. however what i was asking is why a 2:1 ratio is better. going by ure above statement im presuming you just mean for an insulin spike. this can be achieved from small amounts or just leucine alone.

Its the 2:1 being the best ratio im interested in. Im not disuputing it may be the best i dont know thats why im asking pal.


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## 54und3r5 (Apr 11, 2008)

I've been wondering whether to add more dextrose to my pwo shake too. At the present i have 50g protein 50g carbs. Unsure of what to do...


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## Ak_88 (Nov 9, 2008)

Glycogen's not really an issue for 'the average' trainer i'd have thought - yes it can be done quicker in the 2 hour PWO/PPWO window, but what rush is there to be filling up your glycogen stores again? Obviously i can't really comment on a contest-prep scenario.

If you're training twice a day then yes, there'll be more importance on restoring endogenous carbs, but if you're having 24-48 hours between workouts, wheres the necessity to fill them up as soon as possible?


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## chris4aka (Sep 15, 2008)

i have 50g oats and 50g maltodextrin and 60g protein and a touch of honey PWO is this any good?


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## mal (Dec 31, 2009)

this question cannot be answered,because everyone requirements will be different.body weight-muscle mass-metabolism.an individual over time will learn the right amount of carbs and protein and from which sources will best suit them for pwr.


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

I agree with Ak_88 in that for most bodybuilders, unless also doing a lot of cardio on top of weights, glycogen replenishment will take care of itself without special attention.

If glycogen replenishment is a priority however, the following excellent article, taken from the International Society of Sports Nutrition Journal, has more than enough info. Link beneath the quoted bit is worth checking out in full as it's an excellent compilation of studies.



> *Maximization of muscle glycogen re-synthesis*
> 
> Athletes who ingest 1.5 g CHO/kg body wt. within 30 minutes after exercise have been shown to experience a greater rate of muscle glycogen re-synthesis than when supplementation is delayed by two hours, largely due to a greater sensitivity of muscle to insulin [61]. Additionally, both solid and liquid forms of CHO promote similar levels of glycogen re-synthesis [15,62,63]. Moreover, different forms of CHO have different effects on insulin levels, with fructose ingestion being associated with lower levels of glycogen re-synthesis than other forms of simple carbohydrates [64]. It has been demonstrated that delaying CHO ingestion by as little as two hours can reduce the rate of muscle glycogen re-synthesis by 50% [61]. If an athlete is glycogen-depleted after exercise, a CHO intake of 0.6 - 1.0 g CHO/kg/h during the first 30 minutes, and again every two hours for 4 - 6 hours, can adequately replace glycogen stores [65,66]. Similarly, maximal glycogen re-synthesis rates have been achieved when 1.2 g CHO/kg/h is consumed every 15 - 30 minutes [65,67]. Consequently, frequent feedings of CHO in high amounts over the 4 - 6 hours following exercise is recommended to ensure recovery of muscle and liver glycogen [15,49]. Additional studies have also reported that maximal glycogen levels can be restored within 24 h if optimal levels of CHO are available (8 g CHO/kg/day), and the degree of glycogen depletion is not too severe [62]. A CHO intake of 9 - 10 g CHO/kg/day is suggested for athletes who are completing intense exercise bouts on consecutive days [68].
> 
> Several studies have suggested that adding PRO to CHO supplementation after exercise may help to promote greater recovery of muscle glycogen and attenuate muscle damage. Ivy and colleagues [69] instructed cyclists to complete a 2.5 h bout of intense cycling before ingesting either a CHO + PRO + Fat (80 g CHO, 28 g PRO, 6 g Fat), low CHO (80 g CHO, 6 g fat), or a high CHO (108 g CHO, 6 g fat) supplement immediately after exercise, and 2 h post-exercise, to determine if the CHO + PRO + Fat combination promoted greater restoration of muscle glycogen. While glycogen replenishment did not differ between the two CHO conditions (low CHO [70.0 ± 4.0 mmol/kg/wet wt] and high CHO [75.5 ± 2.8 mmol/kg/wet wt]), muscle glycogen levels were significantly greater (p < 0.05) in the CHO + PRO + Fat treatment (88.8 ± 4.4 mmol/kg/wet wt). The authors concluded that a CHO + PRO + Fat supplement may be more effective because of its provocation of a more pronounced insulin response [66,69,70]. Similarly, studies by Berardi and Tarnopolsky [71,72] utilized cyclists for the completion of exercise bouts of 60 - 90 min on separate occasions before ingesting CHO + PRO or CHO alone. Both authors concluded that ingestion of either CHO preparation resulted in greater restoration of muscle glycogen when compared to a placebo. Berardi [71], however, reported even greater glycogen levels when the CHO + PRO combination was consumed post-exercise. Furthermore, the availability of essential amino acids (EAA) following exercise, especially the branched-chain amino acids, have been reported to influence recovery by optimizing PRO re-synthesis as well as glycogen re-synthesis rates after exercise [61,69,70,72-74]. As these studies suggest, the ingestion of CHO (1 - 1.5 g CHO/kg/day) within 30 minutes following the termination of an exercise bout promotes restoration of muscle glycogen, while the addition of PRO may have additional benefits in enhancing both muscle PRO and glycogen re-synthesis.


http://www.jissn.com/content/5/1/17


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## warren (Jun 16, 2008)

i use to have corn flour ( same as wms ) but now just ave my shake and then carbs in the meal after, i personally havent found any difference in my training , im still gaining , and strength is constantly on the up


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## martin brown (Dec 31, 2008)

Dtlv74 said:


> I agree with Ak_88 in that for most bodybuilders, unless also doing a lot of cardio on top of weights, glycogen replenishment will take care of itself without special attention.


I don't think that glycogen levels get depleted either - certainly not full body stores anyway.

However, there is no doubt in my mind that the influence of carbs pre/post workout has some synergistic effect with protein - and offers faster recovery and better responses from training


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

martin brown said:


> I don't think that glycogen levels get depleted either - certainly not full body stores anyway.
> 
> However, there is no doubt in my mind that the influence of carbs pre/post workout has some synergistic effect with protein - and offers faster recovery and better responses from training


That's kind of my take on carbs around the workout too - for glycogen synthesis alone not so important, but for other benefits worth the addition.


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## ElfinTan (May 23, 2008)

Dtlv74 said:


> http://www.jissn.com/content/5/1/17


Very interesting! Reps

2:1 ratio is interesting but then the question remains should this be the same regardless of workout?

Mal - it is because of the variables that I am thinking there must be some 'rule of thumb' as there is with other things regarding dietary requirements.

There must be a starting point as there is with other areas of diet ie protein requirements etc.

Or even differing views on requirements which would then lead to each individual seeing which 'school of thought' worked for them. To just pluck a number out of the air coz Billy Big Biceps down the gym says doesn't really cut it.


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## ElfinTan (May 23, 2008)

Dtlv74 said:


> That's kind of my take on carbs around the workout too - for glycogen synthesis alone not so important, but for other benefits worth the addition.


But then the opinion is still there that the carbs are beneficial post workout so the question remains the same..........how much (one view in article posted)? And will it be the same regardless of workout?????

Call it glycogen replenshment/recovery/whatever lol


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## Lou (Jul 27, 2008)

Hey Tan

If you want it from a woman's perspective I use two level scoops Pro-Recover OR 35grms Quality Whey Isolate with 50grams Vitargo ONLY after training to stop catabolism and aid recovery to a degree, I then eat a solid meal an hour after my PWO shake.

You know how heavy I am and my PWO shake hasn't changed in two years regardless of workout.....the amounts stated above is enough to do the job its supposed to followed by good food which then does the rest.

I believe PWO shakes are not taken to replenish glycogen stores....but simply to stop the breakdown of muscle tissue and start repair....stores of glycogen are replenished over a period of time and is not instant, therefore PWO shakes would have no real effect on restoring glycogen.....

Lou


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## mal (Dec 31, 2009)

ElfinTan said:


> Very interesting! Reps
> 
> Or even differing views on requirements which would then lead to each individual seeing which 'school of thought' worked for them.
> 
> ...


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## ElfinTan (May 23, 2008)

Lou said:


> Hey Tan
> 
> If you want it from a woman's perspective I use two level scoops Pro-Recover OR 35grms Quality Whey Isolate with 50grams Vitargo ONLY after training to stop catabolism and aid recovery to a degree, I then eat a solid meal an hour after my PWO shake.
> 
> ...


Lou pretty much everyone I know as a certain post workout including myself BUT there seems to be little 'science' behind the calculations. If I had asked 'how much protein do I nee per lb of bodyweight?' for example I would get answered within a certain range depending what peoples opinion preference was, some would say .5g some 1g etc.

Like i said whether for replenishment/repair etc the fact is post w/o carbs are on most peoples diet.

Maybe there is no science behind it and it's all just guesswork!


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## Lou (Jul 27, 2008)

Perhaps for the science a University library needs a visit........I believe that UKM member Jordan aka XJPX is studying a sports science degree at Loughborough University before going on to study medicine, perhaps he can find some time to pull up some sports science journals relating to pwo nutrition and post them on them on UKM.....

Lou X


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

ElfinTan said:


> Lou pretty much everyone I know as a certain post workout including myself BUT there seems to be little 'science' behind the calculations. If I had asked 'how much protein do I nee per lb of bodyweight?' for example I would get answered within a certain range depending what peoples opinion preference was, some would say .5g some 1g etc.
> 
> Like i said whether for replenishment/repair etc the fact is post w/o carbs are on most peoples diet.
> 
> Maybe there is no science behind it and it's all just guesswork!


Right - science writing hat back on!

I think there are so many factors involved in working out a precise calculation - just small changes in intensity of exercise (measured as percentage of 1 rep max) is enough to give significantly different results for FSR of PS (Fractional Synthetic Rate of Protein Synthesis) in studies using the same exercises and supplementation.

This means to find an optimum formula would require testing all percentages of one rep max for all exercises performed against all possible combinations of amino acids and carbohydrates taken both pre-, peri-, and post-workout and then applying that to your specific workout... just not possible! And goodness knows how to calculate such an optimum figure if you employ mixed intensities during a session :surrender: !!!

Differences are often demonstrated in studies between long time exercisers and newbs too, so that's another factor, and age and gender also alter the results... and then there's the interaction with AAS which is never investigated in supplementation studies.

Although hardline scientists would say that anecdotal observations are not trustworthy, I'd strongly disagree and say that you can learn as much from the observations of an experienced and intelligent trainer as from a science journal... but that's certainly not everyone who has opinion!

I'm kind of lucky that I'm nerdy, have a reasonable science background, and enjoy ploughing through the studies. My method of working out what to do and making sense of it all is basically to compare the studies that look solid (many of them that show decent result don't actually represent how ANYONE trains) to the opinions of people I consider worth listening to and then try things out for myself that seem to be approved both ways... but the more I learn on this journey the more I realise less is actually considered certain and that most things in the end, even when based on scientific observations, are infact nothing more than educated guesses. I've also began to be able to recognise the odd poorly constructed study method, and there are a lot of poorly analysed studies out there that still get published and taken as gospel, especially by those who like the sound of the conclusion.

If you like I can post up a range of studies with positive results on protein and carb supplmentation around the workout - there can be problems comparing them though with the different analytical and statistical methods used to get the results. Science speak puts a lot of people off because to make sense of it properly you effectively need to learn a new language 'sicencegeekspeak'!

This is why I posted the link a few posts back - it's a good review, and takes a lot of the hunting around out of it. Key points quoted.



> 1.) Maximal endogenous glycogen stores are best promoted by following a high-glycemic, high-carbohydrate (CHO) diet (600 - 1000 grams CHO or ~8 - 10 g CHO/kg/d), and ingestion of free amino acids and protein (PRO) alone or in combination with CHO before resistance exercise can maximally stimulate protein synthesis.
> 
> 2.) During exercise, CHO should be consumed at a rate of 30 - 60 grams of CHO/hour in a 6 - 8% CHO solution (8 - 16 fluid ounces) every 10 - 15 minutes. Adding PRO to create a CHORO ratio of 3 - 4:1 may increase endurance performance and maximally promotes glycogen re-synthesis during acute and subsequent bouts of endurance exercise.
> 
> ...


If you want more studies specific to carbohydrate supplmentation around the workout but NOT specific to glycogen replenishment measures I can post a few for you... but as said earlier, direct comparison of the results and conclusions may not be totally straightforward! :confused1:

Sorry for the long post btw - is 1.30am and I ramble on when tired!


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## ElfinTan (May 23, 2008)

Dtlv74 said:


> Right - science writing hat back on!
> 
> I think there are so many factors involved in working out a precise calculation - just small changes in intensity of exercise (measured as percentage of 1 rep max) is enough to give significantly different results for FSR of PS (Fractional Synthetic Rate of Protein Synthesis) in studies using the same exercises and supplementation.
> 
> ...


The nerdy rambling is good. I may not understand it all but I can fush my way though alot of it! Cheers!


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## ElfinTan (May 23, 2008)

Lou said:


> Perhaps for the science a University library needs a visit........I believe that UKM member Jordan aka XJPX is studying a sports science degree at Loughborough University before going on to study medicine, perhaps he can find some time to pull up some sports science journals relating to pwo nutrition and post them on them on UKM.....
> 
> Lou X


Lou - like i said if i asked how much protein I needed 'as a rule of thumb' or how to construct a basic carb cycling diet then there is loads of stuff to get a starting point HOWEVER this seems not to be the case for postwork out carbs. Maybe I'm just not asking the question correctly!

I have heard of a pro BB that does alter his carb intake dependent on the workout but true to form I can't remember who it was lol!


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## Lou (Jul 27, 2008)

Dtlv74 said:


> If you want more studies specific to carbohydrate supplmentation around the workout but NOT specific to glycogen replenishment measures I can post a few for you... but as said earlier, direct comparison of the results and conclusions may not be totally straightforward! :confused1:
> 
> Sorry for the long post btw - is 1.30am and I ramble on when tired!


 Post away dear man....the more science the better; at least there can be a modicum of understanding how the application of science can work to our benefit.

:cool2:


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

Ok then, let the study confusion commence :thumb:

Have left out the studies that primarily focus on glycogen replenishment so that other things can be looked at. Will put some up if requested. Also tried to use studies that combine carbs with protein, as protein is more important and shouldn't be removed, and of course carbs plus protein is a better representation of how most people supplement.

*Studies on Supplment Timing*

Effects of supplement timing and resistance exercise on skeletal muscle hypertrophy.

This study compares two groups each taking two shakes (carbs, protein, creatine), with the only difference being the timing. One group takes their shakes immediately pre workout and immediately post workout, the other groups takes their shakes in the morning and in the evening (nowhere near the session). The conculsion is that taking the drinks around the workout is much more effective in improving protein synthesis of type II fibres, greater muscle glycogen levels and greater muscle creatine levels.

This conclusion seems pretty obvious to most, but there are some who believe that workout supplementation interferes with the natural rebuilding cycle and actually limits gains - this suggests otherwise.

...

Timing of amino acid-carbohydrate ingestion alters anabolic response of muscle to resistance exercise.

This one compares a single drink of EAAs plus carbs taken either immediately pre- or post-workout. The conclusion suggests that taking pre-workout delivers more protein synthesis.

There are a couple of similar studies out there showing the same thing. interestingly there's one though that doesn't show a difference (Essential amino acid and carbohydrate ingestion before resistance exercise does not enhance postexercise muscle protein synthesis) but if you look closely they took the pre-workout drink an hour before the session. This, combined with the data from the other studies, suggests that to take advantage of the better protein synthesis from a pre-workout drink you need to take it as close to the session as possible.

...

Effect of carbohydrate-protein supplement timing on acute exercise-induced muscle damage

This study compares pre- and post-workout drinks but looks at the effect on muscle damage rather than protein synthesis. The results show no significant differences between either way of supplementing.

...

*Studies on Type of Carbohydrate*

Effects of ingesting protein with various forms of carbohydrate following resistance-exercise on substrate availability and markers of anabolism, catabolism, and immunity

A study comparing a post-workout drink of 40g whey with either maltodextrin, sucrose or honey powder (Palatinose/isomaltulose) but found no significant differences in the effects of either.

...

Carbohydrate feeding before exercise: effect of glycemic index.

This study is not on resistance training but on endurance exercise (one hour cycling). In this situation lower GI carbohydrates allow greater performance for longer.

...

*Comparison between Carbohydrate alone, Amino Acids alone and the two combined*

Independent and combined effects of liquid carbohydrate/essential amino acid ingestion on hormonal and muscular adaptations following resistance training in untrained men.

This study is a good one because it shows that while both carbohydrate and amino acids are beneficial on their own, they are synergistic when taken together - in other words carbs and protein together promote greater protein synthesis than adding the benefits of just carbs to just amino acids.

....

Effects of liquid carbohydrate/essential amino acid ingestion on acute hormonal response during a single bout of resistance exercise in untrained men.

Again comparing carbs alone, amino acids alone, placebo, and carbs plus aminos - this time looking primarily at the insulin and cortisol response rather than protein synthesis. This one suggests that either carbs alone, aminos alone or the two combined all work fairly equally at increasing insulin and reducing cortisol.

*Cognitive/Psychological Effects of Carbohydrate Supplementation*

Carbohydrates and physical/mental performance during intermittent exercise to fatigue

This study looks at various psychological effects and compares carb plus electrolytes to placebo. Note it tests these things during an intense sporting event rather than a resistance training session. It concludes that carbohydrate plus electrolytes taken pre exercise improves mood, motor coordination, perception of fatigue and performance over placebo.

...

Carbohydrate sensing in the human mouth: effects on exercise performance and brain activity

This study is really interesting. It shows that a carbohydrate mouth wash (not even drinking the stuff, and even if the sweetness is removed) significantly improves performance over a placebo. The mechanism appears to be via sensors in the mouth sensing the carbohydrate and then stimulating areas of the brain responsible for central drive and motivation. This is backed up neuroimaging of the brain. There are a few other studies which emulate this effect too.

...

As for dosing either pre- or post-workout, the question isn't really answered as many of the studies out there (and there are loads of them) get positive results with varying dosages and training methods. Going back to my earlier post in the thread where I linked to that Journal review on supplement timing, my opinion is that the two statements from there conclusions most worth using as guidlines are these:



> Ingestion of 6 - 20 grams of EAAs and 30 - 40 grams of high-glycemic CHO within three hours after an exercise bout and immediately before exercise have been shown to significantly stimulate muscle PRO synthesis.
> 
> Addition of Cr (creatine) to a CHO + PRO supplement in conjunction with regular resistance training facilitates greater improvements in strength and body composition as compared with when no Cr is consumed.


Finally, is important to note though that although carbs do show benefit, the most important nutrient is *protein*. Am sure everyone on here is aware of this anyway, but always has to be said when talking about workout supplmentation.

Took me friggin ages to write all that and tired me out - need some carbs now!!!! :laugh:


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## ElfinTan (May 23, 2008)

:thumb:

I'd rep you again, but it will have to wait lol!


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## Joshua (Aug 21, 2008)

I agree on the matter of most peoples weights workouts not being a major glycogen demand, however as soon as you add in other sports, post weight cardio, HIIT, multiple training sessions a day or long workouts (3hr+) glycogen replacement becomes a real issue IMO.

As far as the replenishment goes, I use the 30g maltodex per 15min for the first 1hr, then 50g.hr-1 thereafter, with caffeine (400mg) to maximise glycogen replenishment rate, but if one does not have to get recharged very quickly, then a pile of slow carbs should do the job. I do not have the cite to hand, but if anyone particularly wants it then let me know and I will try and find it.

Energy expenditure can to some extent be calculated by measurement of R-R cardiac intervals, surprisingly reliably. I have a device that does this however EPOC analysis is supposed to be only reliable when the demands are fairly steady, but when interset rest periods are kept low eg( during depletion workouts) IME they are quite reliable.

The matter of preworkout carbs on the CNS is a very interesting area too, and has more bearing on performance than often expected IMO.



> going by ure above statement im presuming you just mean for an insulin spike. this can be achieved from small amounts or just leucine alone.


Post workout stimulation of protein synthesis is maximally stimulated from both elevated insulin and elevated Leu. Although high Leu concentrations will stimulate insulin in response to hyperaminoacidemia, maximum stimulation of protein synthesis needs either exogenous slin or carbs too IMO.

Good post dtlv.

J


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

ElfinTan said:


> :thumb:
> 
> I'd rep you again, but it will have to wait lol!


Lol, cheers ElfinTan 



Joshua said:


> I agree on the matter of most peoples weights workouts not being a major glycogen demand, however as soon as you add in other sports, post weight cardio, HIIT, multiple training sessions a day or long workouts (3hr+) glycogen replacement becomes a real issue IMO.
> 
> As far as the replenishment goes, I use the 30g maltodex per 15min for the first 1hr, then 50g.hr-1 thereafter, with caffeine (400mg) to maximise glycogen replenishment rate, but if one does not have to get recharged very quickly, then a pile of slow carbs should do the job. I do not have the cite to hand, but if anyone particularly wants it then let me know and I will try and find it.


Yes, such an important qualifier of glycogen replenishment - if bulking and largely avoiding the cardio, don't worry. If training with weights and doing lots of cardio or participating in some other sport then it becomes vital.

Fortunately there are plenty of studies showing optimum amounts of carbs over set periods of time to do this - between 0.6g and 1g carbs per kg/bodyweight during the first 30 minutes, then the same every 2 hours for 4-6 hours. A carb meal would count as one of these feeds, and only the first feed needs to be high GI. I think you can do fine on less though, but that's my opinion and not what the studies recommend.

I prefer malto too...ideally a blend with a favourable ratio of amylopectin to amylose (but most products don't give that info).



Joshua said:


> Post workout stimulation of protein synthesis is maximally stimulated from both elevated insulin and elevated Leu. Although high Leu concentrations will stimulate insulin in response to hyperaminoacidemia, maximum stimulation of protein synthesis needs either exogenous slin or carbs too IMO.


Agree again - leucine activates both non insulin dependent and insulin dependent growth pathways, but not the insulin dependent pathways optimally. The extra insulin from carbs is required to maximise the effect.


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## martin brown (Dec 31, 2008)

Malto?

I just cant stomach the stuff


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## Lou (Jul 27, 2008)

Dtlv74 said:


> Ok then, let the study confusion commence :thumb:
> 
> Have left out the studies that primarily focus on glycogen replenishment so that other things can be looked at. Will put some up if requested. Also tried to use studies that combine carbs with protein, as protein is more important and shouldn't be removed, and of course carbs plus protein is a better representation of how most people supplement.
> 
> ...


GREAT Post.......thanks :thumb: :thumb :


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## Joshua (Aug 21, 2008)

martin brown said:


> Malto?
> 
> I just cant stomach the stuff


The study used different amounts of malto IIRC, so I use that as a reference point if I need to get glycogen replenished ASAP. The caffeine assists too.

I do not see any reason why one would need malto though, as one could just use any CHO instead and guess the scoff rate.

J


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## Guest (Feb 1, 2010)

martin brown said:


> Malto?
> 
> I just cant stomach the stuff


x2!


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## ElfinTan (May 23, 2008)

Market recovery drinks like Pro Recover cripple me....I get such bad stomach pains, tried all kinds but same thing happens.


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## glen danbury (May 23, 2006)

whilst I do agree with the studies I also like to see what others in the industry are doing

here is poliquins recommendations for post workout feeds

*No Carb Post Workout Shake* - Poliquin Performance believes that every male athlete should be under 10% body fat and females under 14%. If your body fat levels are higher than 10 or 14 we suggest using a higher amount of glutamine and glycine and drop the carbs. Once your body fat hits below these markers you can follow the other protocols.

*Poliquin's Recommendations for Post Workout Nutrition*<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" /><o></o>


1. 0.6 grams of whey protein isolate per kg of lean body mass <o></o>

2. 0 -1.2 grams of carbohydrates "Vitargo, dextrose, malto-dextrin or Natural fruit juice per kg of lean body mass <o></o>

3. 0.33 grams of glutamine per kg/bodyweight - 20 - 50 grams glutamine* <o></o>

4. 5-20 grams glycine - start with 5 and build up if you can't tolerate 20 grams you have a weak liver- reduces cortisol <o></o>

5. Poliquin Triple Threat Post Workout shake - Clients with lower body fats <o></o>

6. Poliquin Whey Isolate mixed with glutamine and glycine for clients with body fats over 10 and 14% <o></o>



<o> </o>

<o> </o>

http://www.ppcchicago.com/articles/top6supplements.php

personally I use a combination of whey, leucine,creatine, glutamine, taurine (MM5) and for carbs I tend to favour dried fruit like dates


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## griffo13 (Dec 7, 2009)

glen danbury said:


> whilst I do agree with the studies I also like to see what others in the industry are doing
> 
> here is poliquins recommendations for post workout feeds
> 
> ...


im getting ready for a comp at the moment and im really interested in a few things you have mentioned here. my body fat is 14% so post workout shakes wud i benefit more from not having any carbs and having some glutamine and glycine instead.

i tend to hold a bit more fat on stomach and lower back while my legs and arms im told are a lot leaner in comparison - someone told me this is because of insulin sensitivity and cortisol levels. would the glycine make a difference and help balance things for me.


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## glen danbury (May 23, 2006)

griffo13 said:


> im getting ready for a comp at the moment and im really interested in a few things you have mentioned here. my body fat is 14% so post workout shakes wud i benefit more from not having any carbs and having some glutamine and glycine instead.
> 
> i tend to hold a bit more fat on stomach and lower back while my legs and arms im told are a lot leaner in comparison - someone told me this is because of insulin sensitivity and cortisol levels. would the glycine make a difference and help balance things for me.


I was just posting, didnt state i endorsed this but it seems interesting

personally even when dieting for competition I would still always have some form of carbs postworkout (or peri if you go the whole hog) but poliquin is very anti carbs full stop for leaning out


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## Linny (Jun 23, 2009)

Found this formula Tan don't know if it's much cop?

*http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/pierce2.htm*


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## ParaManiac (Mar 20, 2007)

mal said:


> this question cannot be answered,because everyone requirements will be different.body weight-muscle mass-metabolism.an individual over time will learn the right amount of carbs and protein and from which sources will best suit them for pwr.


There's your answer.As per any aspect of training/bodybuilding - one size does not fit all.


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## ElfinTan (May 23, 2008)

ParaManiac said:


> There's your answer.As per any aspect of training/bodybuilding - one size does not fit all.


Quality Street? :whistling:


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## ParaManiac (Mar 20, 2007)

ElfinTan said:


> Quality Street? :whistling:


Green triangle if you tied me down and threatened my family


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

ParaManiac said:


> There's your answer.As per any aspect of training/bodybuilding - one size does not fit all.


one of the best posts i have seen......

the way i work out the amounts is by daily amounts/goals/bodytype etc.....

when i am 6 weeks into my diet i don't use carbs post workout....some of my clients don't either.....

Sizar i am as interested as Hilly in why the 2:1 ratio PWO is better....


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## griffo13 (Dec 7, 2009)

glen danbury said:


> I was just posting, didnt state i endorsed this but it seems interesting
> 
> personally even when dieting for competition I would still always have some form of carbs postworkout (or peri if you go the whole hog) but poliquin is very anti carbs full stop for leaning out


oh right i get ya. there so many different fat loss protocols out there its hard to no which to use. suppose you just have to try and see which works best for you


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## glen danbury (May 23, 2006)

Pscarb said:


> one of the best posts i have seen......
> 
> the way i work out the amounts is by daily amounts/goals/bodytype etc.....
> 
> ...


probably not for any other reason other than a study which used this ratio had a better effect at raising insulin levels than carbs alone, so everyone sticks with this formula

van loon et al Maximizing postexercise muscle glycogen synthesis: carbohydrate supplementation and the application of amino acid or protein hydrolysate mixtures. AM J Clin Nutr

and for the OP they used 0.8g of carbs and 0.4g of protein per KG of bodyweight which for an average 80kg bloke would equate to 65g carbs and 32g of protein


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## gerardflanagan (Aug 11, 2009)

I've just spent a good half an hour reading this thread! Thanks Dtlv74 for your scientific posts, they were very interesting.

Is the research here applicable to post 20mins HIIT/ 45 mins SSCV as well as post weights? Presumably the body's glycogen stores are low then as well?


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## pf2010 (Sep 11, 2010)

Im 5 weeks out from my 1st contest . Im on 170g of carbs a day . I train at 5pm and my last carb meal of the day is at 4pm . My question is should i consume simple carbs after training with my protein shake ? Im worried that the cabs that late in the evening will turn to fat .


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

pf2010 said:


> Im 5 weeks out from my 1st contest . Im on 170g of carbs a day . I train at 5pm and my last carb meal of the day is at 4pm . My question is should i consume simple carbs after training with my protein shake ? Im worried that the cabs that late in the evening will turn to fat .


no one can answer this question with 100% accuracy as we have no other information....but simple carbs taken after training will be used to refill used glycogen stores and not be turn into fat...


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## Hendrix (Sep 16, 2009)

I tend to crave sugar and carbs after hard workout or an hour of swimming.


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## Andrew Jacks (Sep 29, 2010)

Pscarb said:


> no one can answer this question with 100% accuracy as we have no other information....but simple carbs taken after training will be used to refill used glycogen stores and not be turn into fat...


Agree it takes up to 12 hours for glucose derived from liver glycogen to fill energy stores


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## JPN (Nov 30, 2010)

I have protein shake after my workout with some tuna and pasta. Real nice.


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