# Do you need to lift heavy weight to gain more muscle ?



## Grim Reaper

Just wondering what everyones views were, Over the years i have always tried lifting as heavy as possible but found i have i end up suffering with minor injuries due to poorer form no doubt. I have found during my last cycle by dropping the weight a bit and doing two second negatives slight pause and slower positive i have gained more noticable gains. Most gyms and lifters seem to try to up their pb's all the time with one off's which i haver never been a fan of...


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## Chelsea

Personally i believe success comes from failure.... failure being musclular failure, forced reps, partial reps etc.

Also no less than 6 reps but ideally 8-10, once i reach ten reps on a weight move up (in small increments).

Plus i think tempo plays a big part, controlling the negative is a must for me!


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## Andy Dee

Chelsea said:


> Personally i believe success comes from failure.... failure being musclular failure, forced reps, partial reps etc.
> 
> Also no less than 6 reps but ideally 8-10, once i reach ten reps on a weight move up (in small increments).
> 
> Plus i think tempo plays a big part, *controlling the negative is a must for me!*


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## DiamondDixie

Not 100%, but

Big weights = more muscle

More muscle = heavier lifts

They work with each other


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## luke80

I always change routine every couple of months to vary the weight and reps. I found a routine that worked involving 20 reps, still gained size.


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## Wings

Yeah I agree with Chelsea. I always go heavy weight and aim for 8 reps but that last rep not being able to complete it. Always to failure on the last rep n even when I cant lift no more I'll atempt one more to finish of the muscle. So 8 n 1/4 lol. I always thought if your not struggling on that last rep and u do it with ease its toning it and not making em bigger....


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## MRSTRONG

theres guys in my gym that always lift light weights yet they want to get massive one of them asked me "how did you get big" my reply was "lifting heavy weights" ..


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## Pancake

There's a difference between lifting heavy weights and lifting "as heavy as possible". If you're just trying to move as much weight from A to B as possible, you sacrifice form (which admittedly doesn't need to be perfect) and involve lots of other muscles, and run the risk of straining something. You should be aiming to focus on the muscle group you're working on and use a heavy weight in that context - it will be less than you could lift if you used every muscle, but will be heavy enough for the muscle group you're focusing on. The weight will increase in time, but hopefully without injury.


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## MarkFranco

Heavy is relative to the lifter

but yes, yes you do.


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## F.M.J

It's not really a question of lifting a weight, stimulating muscle to grow is easy (and they will grow even if its not mega heavy weight) what people should be concerned about is lifting efficiently - what stimulates muscle growth fastest a good mix of heavy with light is best - read an article on this actually can't remember the details but it did put in a good way that lifting heavy (failing at ~8th rep) then doing 2-4 sets light (failing at ~15-20 reps) promotes more muscle growth.


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## MarkFranco

F.M.J said:


> It's not really a question of lifting a weight, stimulating muscle to grow is easy (and they will grow even not mega heavy weight) what people should be concerned about is lifting efficiently - what stimulates muscle growth fastest a good mix of heavy with light is best - read an article on this actually can't remember the details but it did put in a good way that lifting heavy (failing at ~8th rep) then doing 2-4 sets light (failing at ~15-20 reps) promotes more muscle growth.


The problem is this, I can squat and deadlift 100kg all day, 200kg+ is heavy for me and im sure theres people out there who could squat and deadlift 200kg all day and 350kg is heavy to them.

So usually when a noobie asks, do I have to lift heavy weights, they mean weights heavy to them and that would be stupidly light to most and I think no, you cant build muscle benching 50kg (just as a rough example)

Some big guys lift light weights but I bet a majority didnt build there body lifting light weights


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## DarkTranquility

F.M.J said:


> read an article on this actually can't remember the details but it did put in a good way that lifting heavy (failing at ~8th rep) then doing 2-4 sets light (failing at ~15-20 reps) promotes more muscle growth.


There's probably a reason you can't remember it... it's at odds with all the scientific literature and every clinical study on sets and volume needed to stimulate muscular growth, ie. one maximum effort set to failure.


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## F.M.J

MarkFranco said:


> The problem is this, I can squat and deadlift 100kg all day, 200kg+ is heavy for me and im sure theres people out there who could squat and deadlift 200kg all day and 350kg is heavy to them.
> 
> So usually when a noobie asks, do I have to lift heavy weights, they mean weights heavy to them and that would be stupidly light to most and I think no, you cant build muscle benching 50kg (just as a rough example)
> 
> Some big guys lift light weights but I bet a majority didnt build there body lifting light weights


I didn't mean LIGHT weights, like if you can deadlift 200 and thats heavy to you I didn't mean then go and strip it down to 1 plate a side, that is just stupid, I mean light as in lighter than you can handle so that you fail at a higher rep range but no more than 20 - that could be 130/120 for you I don't know. It's all relative at the end of the day. I agree repping 60 kilo won't get you anywhere!

Here is the article I read:

*Q: You talk a lot about separating power sets and density sets. I think most research says that a rep range of around eight is best for muscle growth. Can't I just do all my sets for around eight reps and grow?*

A: Sure, you can stick to around eight reps for all sets, but we don't think that's efficient. In fact, always doing only six to eight reps may be one of the big reasons so many trainees build muscle so slowly. They've been brainwashed into believing that heavy training is the only way to big gaining. Not true.

We've found that to build the most mass as quickly as possible, you should divide your sets, doing at least some as heavy power hits and others for longer tension times-that is, density. The reason is the dominant fiber type in the biggest, freakiest bodybuilders-type 2A.

The 2As are dual-component muscle fibers, meaning that they have both power and endurance capabilities. That's why, when trying to determine the one best rep range for muscle growth, researchers came up with eight reps-because it's middle ground that puts a foot on both the power and endurance sides of the fence. If you use specificity on some of your sets, however, you can produce even better results.

In other words, do some of your sets for power and some for density, or endurance. For example, attack some low-rep work to train the power component, then finish off the bodypart with some higher-rep sets, drop sets or supersets for more of a density mass-building effect.

As we said, most bodybuilders are brainwashed with the must-use-heavy-weight-to-grow theory-and their gains are painfully slow. If and when they finally use something like 4×10 or another density finisher, they get a huge growth spurt. That's because they're finally targeting the endurance side of the key 2A growth fibers for a full-on, total fast-mass blast!


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## LunaticSamurai

^^^^Good post/


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## Matt 1

Don't stick to one way of lifting or you will never look any different

I do periods of strength training and periods of hypertrophy training

Keep every session intense as possible..shouldn't be in the gym longer than 45mins-hour


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## C.Hill

Mix it up, I like a warm up by increasing weight by 10-20kg every set with 2 reps up-till working set, 1 heavy set of 5-7 reps, then strip weight off each set and increasing the reps, find that works well, hits all muscle fibres.

Regarding 1 rep max, I do that once in a blue moon, hardly ever really.


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## paul81

Chelsea said:


> Personally i believe success comes from failure.... failure being musclular failure, forced reps, partial reps etc.
> 
> Also no less than 6 reps but ideally 8-10, once i reach ten reps on a weight move up (in small increments).
> 
> Plus i think tempo plays a big part, controlling the negative is a must for me!


this x 2

what i've just started doing the last couple of weeks


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## Stallion23

Matt 1 said:


> Don't stick to one way of lifting or you will never look any different
> 
> I do periods of strength training and periods of hypertrophy training
> 
> Keep every session intense as possible..shouldn't be in the gym longer than 45mins-hour


I totally agree, periodisation within workouts and seasonal is foundamental. we never have to forget that the body tends to find a balance as an answer to the any external stress, once found the balance (initial muscle growth in our case), the same stress will not be seen anymore as a stress, that is when we have to change technique to induce new and productive stress.


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## Beasted

As long as your technique is correct and diet is in check your muscles will grow bigger.


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## quinn85

seeing as everyone is different wouldnt it all be relative? what works for one may not always work for another. it makes sense in my mind that lifting the heaviest you can lift will help with getting results, along with everything else like diet/form/rest.


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## Grim Reaper

I definatly agree to lifting as heavy as i can and aim for 10/14 reps now but often fail at 8:cursing: :cursing: but found that doing more negative training i get more doms on all body parts, I also find partial reps are great on squats and leg press...


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## F.M.J

joshnow said:


> one thing is for sure, a good block of upper olympia competitors and winners were former powerlifters, ronnie coleman/kevin levrone/johnie jackson/branch warren/franco columbu/ even arnie competed in a few strongman/powerlifting type competiton inbetween competing, the judges of the IFBB also tend to go for the monsters nowadays like they did with branch warren over here which was a complete joke for him to win looking the way he did.


Franco Columbu was indeed a powerlifter before getting into bodybuilding, it was actually Arnold Schwarzenegger who got him into it and Franco getting Arnie into powerlifting, they adopted each others training and made it their own. Arnie talks in his books about times he used to go into the woods with a car full of weights and a bar and he'd stick some weights on and do 50 rep sets for hours so here again you have an example of lifting heavy along with lifting light - and arnie's muscle was very dense, like my previous post suggests being the resultant from lighter weights.


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## Rekless

The reality is you can't get stronger for ever. It is important to remember there is more than one way to create hypertrophy, volume, time under tension, lifting angle etc. But heavy weights obviously play a large part to increased muscle


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## MarkFranco

Beasted said:


> As long as your technique is correct


Tell that to Branch Warren


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## Rekless

MarkFranco said:


> Tell that to Branch Warren


"As long as your cycles and genteics are correct"

fixed for Branch :lol:


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## MarkFranco

Rekless said:


> "As long as your cycles and genteics are correct"
> 
> fixed for Branch :lol:


More like

LIGHT WEIGHT MOTHER ****ERS GRRRRR *lifts stupid amounts of weight with the worse form ever seen and a good chance of some questionable range of motion*

The guys an animal, may aswell be throwing big rocks at walls... he would still probably grow


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## SK-XO

Whats worked for me is say for example 2 sets heavy between 6-8 reps and one set lighter say half the weight at 12 reps but slow negative for example.


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## Gerry_bhoy

F.M.J said:


> I didn't mean LIGHT weights, like if you can deadlift 200 and thats heavy to you I didn't mean then go and strip it down to 1 plate a side, that is just stupid, I mean light as in lighter than you can handle so that you fail at a higher rep range but no more than 20 - that could be 130/120 for you I don't know. It's all relative at the end of the day. I agree repping 60 kilo won't get you anywhere!
> 
> Here is the article I read:
> 
> *Q: You talk a lot about separating power sets and density sets. I think most research says that a rep range of around eight is best for muscle growth. Can't I just do all my sets for around eight reps and grow?*
> 
> A: Sure, you can stick to around eight reps for all sets, but we don't think that's efficient. In fact, always doing only six to eight reps may be one of the big reasons so many trainees build muscle so slowly. They've been brainwashed into believing that heavy training is the only way to big gaining. Not true.
> 
> We've found that to build the most mass as quickly as possible, you should divide your sets, doing at least some as heavy power hits and others for longer tension times-that is, density. The reason is the dominant fiber type in the biggest, freakiest bodybuilders-type 2A.
> 
> The 2As are dual-component muscle fibers, meaning that they have both power and endurance capabilities. That's why, when trying to determine the one best rep range for muscle growth, researchers came up with eight reps-because it's middle ground that puts a foot on both the power and endurance sides of the fence. If you use specificity on some of your sets, however, you can produce even better results.
> 
> In other words, do some of your sets for power and some for density, or endurance. For example, attack some low-rep work to train the power component, then finish off the bodypart with some higher-rep sets, drop sets or supersets for more of a density mass-building effect.
> 
> As we said, most bodybuilders are brainwashed with the must-use-heavy-weight-to-grow theory-and their gains are painfully slow. If and when they finally use something like 4×10 or another density finisher, they get a huge growth spurt. That's because they're finally targeting the endurance side of the key 2A growth fibers for a full-on, total fast-mass blast!


Interesting. Could someone elaborate on this with an example of a training session?...

I.e Bench 5x5

Weight dips (drop weight) 4x10-12

Is that the idea?


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## Grim Reaper

Gerry_bhoy said:


> Interesting. Could someone elaborate on this with an example of a training session?...
> 
> I.e Bench 5x5
> 
> Weight dips (drop weight) 4x10-12
> 
> Is that the idea?


My type of training at the mo is something like this for the next 6/8wks

b/b bench flat 4x5 reps

incline d/bell 4x 10 reps

decline flyes 4x 20 reps

all sets heavy enough to failure on last rep, then on next week move on to incline b/b 1st then decline and so on, work well for me and good doms for a couple of days...


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## Rekless

joshnow said:


> the reality is you can get stronger into your 50's, you just have to get wiser and be open to new training philosophys , just ask louie simmons if you dont believe me, he talks the talk and walks the walk in terms of the strength world.


Sorry let me be more clear.

Obviously progression is key to muscle growth, increasing weight week on week or more reps with heavy weights than the previous week.

After a while you are bound to hit a weight where the increasment is a big jump and will struggle to increase your weight or reps.

This is when other training styles can be applied as mentioned, instead of banging your head against the wall doing the same weight week in week out and not progressing.


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## essexboy

Chelsea said:


> Personally i believe success comes from failure.... failure being musclular failure, forced reps, partial reps etc.
> 
> Also no less than 6 reps but ideally 8-10, once i reach ten reps on a weight move up (in small increments).
> 
> Plus i think tempo plays a big part, controlling the negative is a must for me!


This.


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## MarkFranco

Here is a question and would like peoples opinions on.

I allways like to do a big heavy compound as my primairy lift for the workout, ill choose back day for example it will be the deadlift, so my workout will look like this.

Chins/pullups (6 sets, 3 sets each, i like to do these to warm up)

Deadlifts (usually work to a new 1 rep max, or 1 heavy set for a new rep PB)

NOW, the question is for the assitance work, what do people think would be the better option with muscle growth been the main goal.

More assitance work, less sets, or less assitance work, more sets... For example

BB rows 5x10-15

or

BB rows - 2 sets

DB rows - 2 sets

CG seated cable row - 2 sets

For the latter I would probably do the first set really heavy 5-6 rep max, second set lighter probably to absolute muscle failure???

Any thoughts?


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## essexboy

F.M.J said:


> I didn't mean LIGHT weights, like if you can deadlift 200 and thats heavy to you I didn't mean then go and strip it down to 1 plate a side, that is just stupid, I mean light as in lighter than you can handle so that you fail at a higher rep range but no more than 20 - that could be 130/120 for you I don't know. It's all relative at the end of the day. I agree repping 60 kilo won't get you anywhere!
> 
> Here is the article I read:
> 
> *Q: You talk a lot about separating power sets and density sets. I think most research says that a rep range of around eight is best for muscle growth. Can't I just do all my sets for around eight reps and grow?*
> 
> A: Sure, you can stick to around eight reps for all sets, but we don't think that's efficient. In fact, always doing only six to eight reps may be one of the big reasons so many trainees build muscle so slowly. They've been brainwashed into believing that heavy training is the only way to big gaining. Not true.
> 
> We've found that to build the most mass as quickly as possible, you should divide your sets, doing at least some as heavy power hits and others for longer tension times-that is, density. The reason is the dominant fiber type in the biggest, freakiest bodybuilders-type 2A.
> 
> The 2As are dual-component muscle fibers, meaning that they have both power and endurance capabilities. That's why, when trying to determine the one best rep range for muscle growth, researchers came up with eight reps-because it's middle ground that puts a foot on both the power and endurance sides of the fence. If you use specificity on some of your sets, however, you can produce even better results.
> 
> In other words, do some of your sets for power and some for density, or endurance. For example, attack some low-rep work to train the power component, then finish off the bodypart with some higher-rep sets, drop sets or supersets for more of a density mass-building effect.
> 
> As we said, most bodybuilders are brainwashed with the must-use-heavy-weight-to-grow theory-and their gains are painfully slow. If and when they finally use something like 4×10 or another density finisher, they get a huge growth spurt. That's because they're finally targeting the endurance side of the key 2A growth fibers for a full-on, total fast-mass blast!


This "article" is full of pseudo scientific twaddle, half truths, traditionalism, and self interest.Id like an explaination, of the term "density finisher" and I mean a logical reply, not merely an opinion.Ill tell you what the most important factor regarding reps is.Time under load.Peoples responses to rep ranges alter not because of the number of reps, but because of the time the muscle is under load before it fails.I noticed this in my training too.Upper body repsonds better(ie gets stronger)with approx 1.00min per set. lower body 2.00min if you average a rep at 6 seconds, 2 secs positive, 4 negative, that equates to 10 reps uppper body ,and 20 lower.in fact the best way to do this is count elapsed time till failure, not reps.Its more accurate, and requires standardisation of every set.


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## essexboy

MarkFranco said:


> Here is a question and would like peoples opinions on.
> 
> I allways like to do a big heavy compound as my primairy lift for the workout, ill choose back day for example it will be the deadlift, so my workout will look like this.
> 
> Chins/pullups (6 sets, 3 sets each, i like to do these to warm up)
> 
> Deadlifts (usually work to a new 1 rep max, or 1 heavy set for a new rep PB)
> 
> NOW, the question is for the assitance work, what do people think would be the better option with muscle growth been the main goal.
> 
> More assitance work, less sets, or less assitance work, more sets... For example
> 
> BB rows 5x10-15
> 
> or
> 
> BB rows - 2 sets
> 
> DB rows - 2 sets
> 
> CG seated cable row - 2 sets
> 
> For the latter I would probably do the first set really heavy 5-6 rep max, second set lighter probably to absolute muscle failure???
> 
> Any thoughts?


Warm up as much as you feel you need.Pick one or two/three big compounds, Ie squat, deads, chins.Work to failure for a few sets, then go home.Rest 72 hours and repeat.If your not progressing,make sure you form is PERFECT.If you dont feel recovered add more rest days.There is no rule that says 3/4 w/o a week are the most efficient.I train once a week and progress more than i ever did when i was younger and training 3 times a week.Dont pad the w/o out, with acessorie movements that are not needed ,and are likely to cause impasses.Work hard not long.


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## Davidmc1961

We mustn't forget, that those gentic freaks, as some call them, are on boatloads of gear and HGH and have been for years and costs a small fortune each month. If we tried to adopt their training programs natural we would soon overtrain and burn out. Cortisol levels quickly soar after about 60 mins working of working out and without anticatabolic agents, we're ****ing in the wind. Bear in mind too that training to failure every workout compounded by high volume training will seriously hinder recovery and soon lead to an overtrained state.

Most powerlifters DO NOT train to failure FACT, nor do Olympic lifters who train 4 or 5 times a week using the same exercise. Adaptation and progession will still take place without going to failure for the simple reason recovery is improved, a gaining momentum has been set up and progressive overload can occur. Its seems imo that its just Bodbybuilders who advocate going to failure and they wonder why they stagnate after a while even on gear.

Marathon runners, for example, DO NOT run 26 miles on a regular basis (maybe twice a year), but do much shorter sessions with less intensity as they know it will be more detrimental than good. Same with other athletes.

Google Not training to failure, they is plenty of science to back it up.

I took all my sets to failure a few years ago, took forever to increase the weight and sometimes even lost strength. After i switched to less intense workouts the weights started to go up.


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## Mingster

No. But it's nice to be able to.


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## hsmann87

Here is my take on it.

HOMEOSTASIS : The body's maintenance of a constant internal environment

This basically means that the body will function in the easiest way possible and by using the least amount of energy - this means that your body will be ready to shed muscle very quickly as muscle weighs a lot and muscle uses a lot of energy to just function in every day life (sitting down, walking, getting up out of a chair etc). Your body will also store fat as reserves.

Basically, the body WANTS to do the opposite of what a bodybuilder wants it to do! Why do we eat protein? Why to we train? To effectively "trick" the body into thinking that it NEEDS extra muscle to function.

We train every day to tell the body "look mate, you throw around heavy weight all day so you need extra muscle mass to enable this to happen." And then we tell our bodies "look pal, im giving you lots of protein which you will break down into amino acids with the protease (an enzyme) you have and then build these amino acids back up as muscle tissue to get bigger muscles!"

Effectively. We are giving the body ADDED STIMULUS to make it want to grow.

Going back to the OP: in the first few months of training, there is a MAJOR shock to the body. The body says "wow hang on, all this weight is being lifted...fvck i better grow!!!"

2 years later, if im lifing the same weight, the body will think "wow, im lifting the same weight as i was a year or so ago. nothing new here so i dont need to grow any more muscle tissue"

However if i continue to train through PROGRESSIVE RESISTANCE, the body will need to keep adapting to this and hence grow.

Thats quite a wooly answer as there is an array of other variables that come into the equation, but that is the jist of it IMO.


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## BigAggs

To make muscle building progress you have to push your muscles to the limits of their ability to work so they adapt by increasing in size and power so the same workout is less stressful next time. It is not possible that a light workout can trigger new muscle growth.


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## Andrew Jacks

There is a big difference between muscle and strength

If you are getting injuries then I would think you are not performing smooth movements and have mental barriers at certain levels, most starters create mental barriers, ignore the numbers on the plates and do clean smooth routines and before you know it, you will surpass previous records

So long as you train hard and rest even harder


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## eezy1

try lowering ur bodyfat if you wanna look better. u dont have to lift the heaviest to look the best in the gym bro


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## Grim Reaper

eezy1 said:


> try lowering ur bodyfat if you wanna look better. u dont have to lift the heaviest to look the best in the gym bro


Agree 100% with this, The biggest man in the gym wont be the strongest man in the gym...


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## Nickthegreek

I don't think there are any right or wrong answers to this one. At the end of the day the muscle does not know how heavy the weight is it is lifting it only knows how hard they are working. So as long as you are training with intensity with good form and working to muscular failure within the correct rep range with good nutrition you will grow muscle.


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## Jimbo 1

Yes I think heavy weight is needed, but drop sets after max lifts work well,

I tend to do three warm up sets then 4 sets of 8-10 reps also on chest day maybe once a month go for 1RM

in-between all the normal sets


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## Chelsea

Muscle overload = muscle growth

Forcing the muscle to do something it is not used to doing will shock it into growing. Simple.

Doing the same 3 sets of 6 reps on 100kg bench will give you the same results week in week out unless you progress and up the weight.


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