# PWO Nutrition



## 3752

found this article on the net it was copied by a member of another board and there was no credit given to the auther which is a shame...

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An Athletes Post Workout Needs

The sweat dripping off your brow and stinging your eyes, your veins engulfed with blood as you complete your last rep, the burn of your muscle fibers as you push ever so close to your threshold, your workout is over. Or is it? Actually this is the time that makes of break an athlete in the quest for hypertrophy. This is one of the most crucial points in an athletes journey to excel. This is the window of opportunity.

Now most people have the misconception muscles grow during the workout, when the truth is muscles grow after the workout. That is when one is going about their everyday life. The biggest part of that being what you put into your mouth, or I should say your nutritional habits. After you finished that last rep your body is in desperate need of macronutrients, micronutrients as well as other things. I am going to inform you of which are necessary, which arent, are and how much is actually needed.

Poor post workout nutrition can cause a wide array of negative effects on an athlete. Muscle soreness that last for days as well as fatigue. Poor performance on and off the field is also a result of poor post workout nutrition. Small gains in lean body mass even with great training programs, is also an effect.

So what exactly happens to the human body during a resistance training workout? After an intense workout the human body is in a large energy demand. The bodies first source of energy is ATP or Adenosine Tri Phosphate. As one trains the ATP stores are lowered and the body switches to glycogen and glucose as its primary source of energy. Glycogen is the main source for moderate to high intensity exercise.

The longer duration of exercise the more glycogen that is essentially burned. In order for an athlete to be able to expand their muscular endurance one must enhance their ability to store carbohydrates in their muscles (also known as glycogen). After a workout muscle glycogen stores are depleted, and muscle proteins have began to break down. That leaves the body in a shortage for both of these vital nutrients. As the body burns glycogen and glucose for energy, the blood sugar levels start to drop.

That then causes the insulin levels to drop severely. The drop in insulin then in turn causes a rise in the catabolic hormone cortisol. Cortisol is a nasty little hormone that turns muscle proteins into glucose. That is the way your body produces energy when all other sources have been depleted. To make up for the depletion, the human body starts a process known as gluconeogenesis. This is how the body produces glucose from amino acids. This puts the body under a lot of stress and in need of many things.

For an athlete to get the most of their workout they must change the deficits in protein and glycogen to surpluses soon after a workout. This is a very time sensitive for the body. The sooner they are replenished the better.

Right after an intense workout the restorative process known as biochemical supercompensation occurs. Protein synthesis will be impeded if the supply of energy and proteins is too little or too slow. By ingesting the right amount of carbohydrates post workout the body will increase production of growth hormone as well as insulin-growth factor. That will also put a stop to gluconeogenesis, helping he body return to a positive nitrogen balance.

What is the best way to turn the body back into an anabolic state? Suppressing cortisol as soon as possible will. For an athlete wanting to gain or maintain lean muscle mass, replenish glycogen levels, or increase anabolic hormones suppressing coritsol is a must. The fastest way to suppress cortisol is from the insulin spike cause only by a high glycemic carbohydrate. The faster the spike the faster proteins and carbohydrates help recover. The faster the absorption of these macronutrients the better.

Carbohydrates are a source of fuel for the human body. Carbohydrates can be classified as simple sugars (monosaccharides), strands of two to ten simple sugars (oligosaccharides), and large polymers or glucose and other sugars (polysaccharides). After a workout is important to only consume simple sugars, it is in that time that the body is in a hypoglycemic state. Insulin along with blood sugar have dropped. High glycemic carbohydrates will give the body an instantaneous rise of blood glucose levels.

That in turn will force an immediate increase in insulin production. The now higher concentration of glucose in the blood will push the glucose and amino acids into the muscle cell much faster. This will also cause secretion of growth hormone. An increase in insulin also causes vasodilation or opening of the vessels. Therefore, more nutrients along with blood can be carried to the cells.

It is very important to stick with high glycemic carbohydrates after a workout. They absorb faster and spike insulin very quick. The faster glucose hits the bloodstream, the less protein breakdown and more storing of glycogen. Fat is one macronutrient that is not welcomed in the post workout period. Fat slows digestion severely. This is because metabolically the human body has to go through more processes to break down fat. Fructose is also a no when it comes to post workout nutrition.

This is because it replenishes liver glycogen levels instead of muscle glycogen, as well as its usually lower glycemic index. It is also important that this high glycemic carbohydrate be consumed in liquid form. That is because liquid is more quickly digested as well as absorbed.

The macronutrient protein is very vital post workout. It is the building blocks of the human body. Protein ingestion, combined with high glycemic carbohydrates is the

best way to reach the state of anabolism. It is also important that this high glycemic carbohydrate be consumed in liquid form. That is because liquid is more quickly digested as well as absorbed. The best form of protein post workout would have to be hydrolyzed whey. It usually will absorb within twenty minutes.

Water is very important for an athletes best performance. Being hydrated is vital for many human bodily functions. Any imbalance will cause much unwanted side effects.

The essential amino acid l-glutamine is great following an intense workout. It enhances protein syntheses. It greatly reduces the risk of overtraining. It also enhances glycogen storage. It reduces exercise induced oxidative stress, as well as strengthens the immune system.

Creatine is a great addition to an athletes post workout nutrition. Occurring naturally creatine is the formation of the three amino acids arginine, glycine and methionine. The human bodies liver combines those three and the formation is creatine. Creatine increases the human bodies creatine phosphate system. In other words when the human body produces energy or ATP (adenosine tri phosphate) it breaks off one phosphate leaving ADP (adenosine di phosphate).

The bodies cell breaks off a phosphate from the creatine, reattaching it with the ADP to once again have ATP. That provides an athlete 10 up to 20 seconds of energy to perform an exercise.

For an athlete with their primary goal being that of hypertrophy should consume

0.8g of carbohydrates per kg of bodyweight. They should also consume 0.4g of protein per kg of bodyweight as well. So for example a NFL football player that weighs 220 should consume 80 grams of carbohydrates and 40 grams of protein. This should be consumed in liquid form immediately following their workout. A whole food meal consisting of complex carbohydrates along with protein and minimal fat should be consumed an hour or so afterward.

Ideally this athlete would consume the carbohydrates from a 50% mix of dextrose to 50% maltodextrin (or 40 grams of each), mixed with 40 grams of hydrolyzed whey protein in at least 16oz. of water. Also scooped out and placed in the shake should be 5-10g creatine along with 5-20 grams of l-glutamine.

As you can see the post workout timeframe is very vital to an athletes success. It is much more complex that one may think. Those who take advantage of it could benefit greatly. For years I have seen many athletes finish up a workout, walk to their car, and off to eat a burger and fries, or even worse nothing at all. The progress that is hindered by their lack of post workout knowledge is very great. Many athletes ignore post workout nutrition and in doing so put a damper on their performance in training and on the field.

Any athlete who wants to be at the top of their game should pay very close attention to their post workout nutrition. It could be the difference in the star athlete and the average Joe..


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## DB

nice post...


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## Peg

This should be a sticky in the Getting Started Forum!

Definitely the Diet and Nutrition forum. It will get lost in the article archive.

As always, Pscarb! Very useful down to earth information that is easy to understand and apply.

Cheers!!!


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## hackskii

Good post.....


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## Peg

Make this a sticky please??? 

There are so many threads about PWO. This can answer them all. It is easy to read and understand.


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## BIG-UNC

cracking post mate very easy reading too

what do you take pwo paul?


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## 3752

i take 2 scoops of Build and Recover post workout i have just got some Vitargo so will give this a go for a month...


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## BIG-UNC

build and recover...by who mate

whats vitargo?


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## 3752

extreme nutrition...

Vitargo -

About Vitargo

There are many other "sports drinks" on the market, but none like Vitargo. It is specially formulated to reload glycogen inthe muscles 70% quicker after activity than other traditional sport drinks.

So what is Vitargo?

Vitargo is a unique patented carbohydrate, specially formulated for elite athletes to give an effective loading of easily accessible muscle energy (glycogen) to the body.

Vitargo has been clinically tested at the Karolinska Institute,

Stockholm and compared with other "ordinary" sport carbohydrate drinks. The results showed that Vitargo was quicker in replenishing glycogen levels* and passing through the stomach. Compared with the normal combinations of complex glucose polymers, Vitargo's results showed:

Recharging of the glycogen levels Vitargo - 70% quicker

Passage through the stomach Vitargo - 80% quicker


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## BIG-UNC

cheers paul

could this be taken whilst working out or just to be used afterwards?


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## 3752

either mate in fact it is probably good to take pre and post workout i am not a big believer in drinking anything but water whilst working out


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## hackskii

Pscarb said:


> i am not a big believer in drinking anything but water whilst working out


Ditto.


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## BIG-UNC

cheers gents


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## pookie69

double post - sorry!


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## pookie69

Pscarb said:


> Fat is one macronutrient that is not welcomed in the post workout period.


My protein powder contains like 3g of fat per serving (every 30g). Is this too much then? Would i be better off switching to one of those pure isolate type powders? I have considered it before simply on value for money grounds  



> Fructose is also a no when it comes to post workout nutrition.


OK - i can understand that fructose isn't a high GI carb and so not ideal PWO, but if you're also ingesting high GI carbs like maltodextrin, is ingesting fructose alongside 'bad' somehow? I ask because i mix my PWO protein and carbs in apple juice.



> Ideally this athlete would consume the carbohydrates from a 50% mix of dextrose to 50% maltodextrin


Could somebody please explain why you need to use both dextrose and maltodextrin? I can't appreciate what a mix would offer over one or the other straight. I've only ever dumped in maltodextrin into my PWO shake.



> Also scooped out and placed in the shake should be 5-10g creatine along with 5-20 grams of l-glutamine.


Do most protein powders not already have sufficient amounts of this amino acid in them, or is it best to supplement extra?

Any and all help is hugely appreciate as always!  Thanks guys and thanks Pscarb for the original article.


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## hackskii

3 grams of fat is nothing.

I think fructose replaces liver glycogen stores first.

it has to go there first to be converted to glucose then put back into the blood.

I may be wrong and if I am someone please correct me.

I myself am not a firm believer in the whole PWO deal.

I see some holes in it.

Some things that concern me is fast acting carbs tend to make one insulin resistant (yes I know about insulin sensitivity and resistance training).

Also after a workout HGH and test is high, insulin will tank HGH and stop the fat burning and anabolism.

But then again insulin in itself is anabolic.

I have heard of guys using oats and protein after a workout.

I dont know, I am not that sold on the whole idea myself.


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## pookie69

hackskii said:


> I myself am not a firm believer in the whole PWO deal.
> 
> I see some holes in it.


Hee hee - yea, i've noticed. In fact, once i'm finsihed reading that "Hormonal Enhancement" e-book you linked a while back, i planned to ask you a few Qs! There seem to be some 'interesting' ideas in there about PWO meals.


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## hackskii

Yah the guy that wrote Hormonal Enhancement doesnt believe in them either.


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## pookie69

hackskii said:


> Yah the guy that wrote Hormonal Enhancement doesnt believe in them either.


Well ok - let's just take up one of the points here, seeing as how it relates to the POW meal and is in complete contradiction to the article this thread pertains to and pretty much what i think 99% of people hold to be true

>>> "Natural Hormonal Enhancement" by Rob Faigin



> The protein powder can be whichever flavor you
> 
> favor. If it is sweetened, be wary of the carbohydrate content. If it is unsweetened, you can sweeten it
> 
> yourself with a zero-carb sweetener. Add a few tablespoons of whipping cream and ice and blend for
> 
> a low-carb, high-protein, moderate-fat, rich, creamy, frosty, shake.
> 
> ...
> 
> The saturated and monounsaturated fat in this shake supports testosterone production in men (see
> 
> Chapter 22). Thus, not only will it promote growth hormone release due to the absence of
> 
> carbohydrate and the presence of protein, but it will also give men a testosterone boost when they
> 
> need it most, after an intense workout when testosterone levels are depressed.
> 
> ...
> 
> The caliber of these ingredients - high-quality protein powder, fresh whipping cream, extra virgin
> 
> olive oil, and/or flaxseed oil - is far superior to the ingredients that comprise most commercial
> 
> performance/recovery drinks.


I dunno Hacks - it all just sounds really off the wall to me. I can appreciate the fact about no carbs pre-workout if you wanna burn fat, but this whole thing about *no carbs but fat* and protein *PWO*...

... seems really weird to me.

Could you please maybe perhaps, i dunno, give your own take on it from your own experiences? Anyone else know anything about this?

It's really frustrating y'know - i mean as a newbie trying to get into proper diet and make sure that things start off as best they can, you think you know what the deal is about pre and post workout meals and then all of a sudden you read something like this! :boohoo:



Thanks Hackskii mate.


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## pookie69

Bumpity Bump Bump!


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## hackskii

Oh K........I was gone for a while at the river getting a deep dark tan......

Also getting really hammered everyday and eating anything I could get my hands on.

You see two different philosophies' here; one suggests protein, fast acting carbs and zero fats. This is designed for spiking insulin to drive the nutrients into the muscles after a workout, replenishing the glycogen stores after a workout and taking advantage of being insulin sensitive after a workout and its anabolic effects.

The other thought here is after a workout your HGH levels will be very high and this is where fat burning is at its best. By taking in only protein and fat you won't disrupt the HGH levels with insulin.

This is a no no usually but I do think that you are still going to take advantage of the protein for muscle and still have your fat for fuel. The author suggests the different fats in the drink to support testosterone production too.

Although I agree with this to some extent, I think there are some conflicting thoughts. I believe both to be a good idea, but I feel that when dieting the protein and fat might be the best approach, but when bulking I think the other approach to be better.

I think they both would work actually.


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## pookie69

hackskii said:


> Although I agree with this to some extent, I think there are some conflicting thoughts. I believe both to be a good idea, but I feel that when dieting the protein and fat might be the best approach, but when bulking I think the other approach to be better.
> 
> I think they both would work actually.


Right right right - ok. Hmmmmm.

I understand what you're saying. I'm half tempted to try out the protein/fat PWO drink as i am 'supposed' to be dieting right now 

>>> it would be a cool experiment

Well anyway, you've helped to clear up a lot there. Thanks man.


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## 3752

the thing with PWO nutrition is that their are so many varients...whilst i diet for a show i only use Protein post workout.

but whilst in the off season i use the typical 3:1 ratio of carbs to protein this works very well for me and most others i know who uses it....no matter what any PWO nutrition be it Carbs/Protein or Protein/fats must be better than no PWO nutrition at all.

what we all need to do is to find out what works best for us as individuals .


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## Return2Glory

good article. one question I have is, in your first meal after pwo shake (say 1 hour after training) should the carbs be high or low GI? as I'm thinking do you really want another insulin spike 1.5 hours after training (especially as I train late so this will be my last meal of the day with the exception of a caesin protein shake at bed time)?

thanks in advance.


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## ParaManiac

Go with a lower carb ppwo.You do not want to create another spike as this will only encourage fat storage.

I normally have sweet potato and eggs.


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## Return2Glory

ok thanks! as I was thinking. So the only time you ever really gona have hi gi carb is in the post wo shake.


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## Tall

Return2Glory said:


> ok thanks! as I was thinking. So the only time you ever really gona have hi gi carb is in the post wo shake.


Or during your workout...


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## hackskii

I dont agree with glycogen replenishment (during the workout) unless you are a cycler (long distance bicycle rider), once you are training, test and GH output are high, you can store large amounts of glycogen in muscle (many grams, even hundreds of grams) as well as the liver (liver about 70 grams), insulin will curb GH release and stop fat burning, unless you are very lean and are glycogen defficient then there is no need during the workout to replenish glycogen.

If that wasnt enough, it takes large volume of blood (1/3 of it) to aid in digestion, why on earth (unless you were glycogen defficient) would you take in carbs?

Even Keto diets you can train, with pretty much no problems other than less stamina...


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## Chris4Pez1436114538

:bump: for later read


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## ParaManiac

hackskii said:


> I dont agree with glycogen replenishment (during the workout) unless you are a cycler (long distance bicycle rider), once you are training, test and GH output are high, you can store large amounts of glycogen in muscle (many grams, even hundreds of grams) as well as the liver (liver about 70 grams), insulin will curb GH release and stop fat burning, unless you are very lean and are glycogen defficient then there is no need during the workout to replenish glycogen.
> 
> If that wasnt enough, it takes large volume of blood (1/3 of it) to aid in digestion, why on earth (unless you were glycogen defficient) would you take in carbs?
> 
> Even Keto diets you can train, with pretty much no problems other than less stamina...


100% agree


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## Ollie B

good read.


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## guinness

I have a question on PWO carbs. I see the not eon consuming dextrose and maltodextrin but where are these found practically?

Would fructose work also? 500ml of fruit juice woudl supply by 0.8grms per kilo. This would be easier to find and consume for me.


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## leeston

can someone help here please. i know a few guys who have two drinks after they have trained. They seperate the carbs and have those first, then a shower and then the protien in a second drink (about 15 mins later).

is there any credit in doing it this way or is just complicating the issue?


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## hackskii

Fructose would refill glycogen stores in the liver first, so that would probably not be my first choice in carbs.

Dextrose can be found in grapejuice and in honey, but I would not buy that from concintrate as this is mostly high fructose corn sweatener.

I would add some protein in that as it helps in spiking. So, grapejuice, protein and creatine would be just fine.


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## ParaManiac

leeston said:


> can someone help here please. i know a few guys who have two drinks after they have trained. They seperate the carbs and have those first, then a shower and then the protien in a second drink (about 15 mins later).
> 
> is there any credit in doing it this way or is just complicating the issue?


Lee,that protocol is generally applied to WMS due to the absorption rate theory,however,i do know guys who also do it with other carb sources.

It's all part of the greatly overhyped PWO argument that will continue to rage.

If you consume 6 - 8 meals on a daily basis utilising carbs and fats appropriately then you will have your bases covered as you will have a constant supply of nutrients in the system to be utilised.

So,imho,as long as you are getting the adequate nutrition for your individual goal/needs it will make little difference which route you take PWO


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## leeston

cheers para, i have recently tried it and its a bugger mixing two drinks seperately and its loads easier mixing one!!!!


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## guinness

ok Hackskii sounds good, that should be easily available.


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## Guest

nice little read


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## recc

interesting article.

got a question though they dont mention wms as a pwo carb i dont think...

Ive got a delivery today of wms and maltodextrin, i understand them to be very similar so there may not be any real effect of having one over the other but in that case ive got double the supply so no loss...

But i was wanting a carb pre workout for energy then one after with whey and creatine. just wondering if one would benefit over the other in these scenarios? or just a 50/50 blend would be fine?


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## 3752

well WMS is pretty new so this is probably why it is not mentioned.

WMS clears faster than Malto so i would use WMS PWO but i would use Oats PreWO as the energy release is slower so no spike or fall in insulin levels..


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## BIG-UNC

Pscarb said:


> well WMS is pretty new so this is probably why it is not mentioned.
> 
> WMS clears faster than Malto so i would use WMS PWO but i would use Oats PreWO as the energy release is slower so no spike or fall in insulin levels..


i know this was a while ago but its very interesting 

one question though please gents what would the time difference between pre wo drink with the oats in and the actual time of training

also could you just blend say normal "quaker" oats in a blender and add these? if so by what weight 50g or so?


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## BIG-UNC

bump


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## hilly

i tend to have oats an hour before training any sooner than that and i tend to feel sick during training.

I use plain old tesco rolled oats and either blend them in a blended then add to a shake or have them with raisens,milk, cinnamon and protein powder. either way is tasty just depends how full i am.


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## BIG-UNC

cheers hilly


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## Lloyd JBC

gd post! :thumb:


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## warren

just bumping this as i have found it a really good read


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## 71081

it is a good read, i will be using this. thx

infact, im gonna rep warren


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## r_richson

so the dillema is to chooe between starving the glycogen depletion for longer with no pwo carbs vs having pwo carbs and hampering fat loss effects from elevated GH and test due to raised insulin from carbs?


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## bayman

It's a waaay overly simplistic way of looking at it tbh.


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## PurpleOnes

I have been looking for this type of thread for a long time and finally found it.

Has all the needed info about PWO!

I will deffinently come back to this thread numerous times:bounce:


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## Dr Gearhead

I know this concerns post workout but is it advantageous to spike insulin pre workout too ?


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