# Best cycle to add muscle mass whilst on a calorie defecit diet?



## imabigguy (Oct 4, 2011)

Was thinking about droping calories down but still want to gain muscle mass of course with a perfect diet what combination of drugs would be the best to gain as much muscle as possible whilst eating less cant afford GH just stuff like tren/eq/masteron ect.... personal experiences appreciated thanks

i was thinking of using

alpha pharmas

tren ace 150mg week

parabolin 150mg week

nandro rapid 300mg week

eq 500mg week

then 250 sus every 12 days

never used deca before not sure how good the fast acting one is and if it has to be done ed or what this cycle was just a rough idea to give youa guide on doses i would be using but im sure most people on here would be able to give me better advice. The cycle would be about 6 months long i dont mind doing eod injections for this period

stats are

6,2

220

3 previous cycles tren/test mainly with orals


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## Old Man GABA (Jul 24, 2003)

so your asking how do I gain while starving myself, Tren is your best bet but dont expect hugh gains.


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## Lew1s.w (Feb 1, 2012)

U wont add muscle if your calories are in defecit, best u could do is maintain the muscle u have while burning fat


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## barsnack (Mar 12, 2011)

unless you try a carb cycle diet, thinks its your best bit to try and add alittle muscle or at least perserve your remaining muscle


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## Bad Alan (Dec 30, 2010)

Not true IME holding your weight whilst dropping fat means your gaining and this is entirely possible with proper drug use. Don't need all those compounds in there though it all seems abit mish-mash. Tren (whatever you can tolerate 300mg p.wk good start) EQ (600mg+ p.wk) and good amount of test will see you right. Start with about maintenance level calories for you and add in some cardio, make sure you time your pre and post workout meals well and you should be GTG....


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## Singhbuilder (Oct 12, 2010)

Im guessing nandro-rapid is nandrolone?

I wouldnt use two 19-nor compounds in the same cycle. That will be quite harsh on your HPTA.

SB


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## Singhbuilder (Oct 12, 2010)

Bad Alan said:


> Not true IME holding your weight whilst dropping fat means your gaining and this is entirely possible with proper drug use. Don't need all those compounds in there though it all seems abit mish-mash. Tren (whatever you can tolerate 300mg p.wk good start) EQ (600mg+ p.wk) and good amount of test will see you right. Start with about maintenance level calories for you and add in some cardio, make sure you time your pre and post workout meals well and you should be GTG....


I agree. I would even try just Test, Tren and Tbol. It has worked very well for me.

SB


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## Reaper 2X3 (Nov 21, 2011)

Tren will help ypou maintain while going into deficit, but you wont grow. But if you are looking to drop fat and build muscle then Tren & Test is best, with a high protein diet and low carbs with as much cardio as the tren will let you do.

Also, Deca is not for this at all. With deca with you need to eat about a cow a day! Makes me really hungry!


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

Bad Alan said:


> Not true IME holding your weight whilst dropping fat means your gaining and this is entirely possible with proper drug use. Don't need all those compounds in there though it all seems abit mish-mash. Tren (whatever you can tolerate 300mg p.wk good start) EQ (600mg+ p.wk) and good amount of test will see you right. Start with about maintenance level calories for you and add in some cardio, make sure you time your pre and post workout meals well and you should be GTG....


you can have the scenario where someone will hold his weight or even increase it in the short term but at the end if a person wants to reach a decent level of body fat and they are not genetically accustomed to do this (some one who is ripped year round) then you WILL NOT gain lean tissue on a reduced calorie diet.....

in 2010 i gained weight in the first 2 weeks of my prep due to the short ester gear kicking in and for the next 9 weeks i maintained above my starting weight as i got leaner but eventually with no drop in calories or decrease in gear my weight dropped....so i can understand the premise of being able to do this but in reality it just does not happen especially for those that do not commit to a proper pre-comp diet (by this i mean everything is weighed and i mean everything)


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## BB_999 (Feb 20, 2006)

I always read that Primo was the only gear that enabled the user to make gains whilst in a calorie deficit?


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## Bad Alan (Dec 30, 2010)

Yea sorry, I agree that if you are going to go down to contest level of BF then you will be struggling to add muscle whilst shifting those last few lbs from trouble areas and really bringing out detail. I think for a general re-comp down to 9-10% it is not impossible to add muscle whilst shedding fat, I guess it depends how lean you are looking to get....


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## BodyBuilding101 (Mar 8, 2006)

Pscarb said:


> you can have the scenario where someone will hold his weight or even increase it in the short term but at the end if a person wants to reach a decent level of body fat and they are not genetically accustomed to do this (some one who is ripped year round) then you WILL NOT gain lean tissue on a reduced calorie diet.....
> 
> in 2010 i gained weight in the first 2 weeks of my prep due to the short ester gear kicking in and for the next 9 weeks i maintained above my starting weight as *i got leaner but eventually with no drop in calories or decrease in gear my weight dropped*....so i can understand the premise of being able to do this but in reality it just does not happen especially for those that do not commit to a proper pre-comp diet (by this i mean everything is weighed and i mean everything)


Paul is that is that because your calories intake was less than expenditure? How many cals and grams of protein do you diet on for shows?


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## Lew1s.w (Feb 1, 2012)

Bad Alan said:


> Yea sorry, I agree that if you are going to go down to contest level of BF then you will be struggling to add muscle whilst shifting those last few lbs from trouble areas and really bringing out detail. I think for a general re-comp down to 9-10% it is not impossible to add muscle whilst shedding fat, I guess it depends how lean you are looking to get....


Yes its possible to gain muscle and burn fat but not if your in calorie defecit...one of the 1st rules of bodybuilding is u wont grow if u dont consume enough calories, if your in defecit that means your not getting enough...simples!!


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

Bad Alan said:


> Yea sorry, I agree that if you are going to go down to contest level of BF then you will be struggling to add muscle whilst shifting those last few lbs from trouble areas and really bringing out detail. I think for a general re-comp down to 9-10% it is not impossible to add muscle whilst shedding fat, I guess it depends how lean you are looking to get....


you cannot ADD lean tissue if yo are not eating enough calories this is basic science mate just as you cannot drop weight if you are eating more than you expend (drugs increase expeniture) so my question yto you would e your eating 3000 cals and maintaining a weight of 200lbs lets say, you start a cut and drop to 2000cals but you add in tren and test where is the body going to get the calories needed to add lean tissue to your frame? yes you may hold on to the muscle you all ready had but you will not add to it.



BodyBuilding101 said:


> Paul is that is that because your calories intake was less than expenditure? How many cals and grams of protein do you diet on for shows?


its because my metabolism increased as the diet went on, my calories fluctuate depending on the show at the moment i am on 1600 cals with 1200 coming from protien.....


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## stone14 (Mar 24, 2005)

as above you cant add lbm if your buring off more cals than you eating, you can only hope to maintain and reduce muscle wasting


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## geeby112 (Mar 15, 2008)

Try keep calories same but make most of the calories from protein and go low on carbs? Even cycle carbs, seen it many times guys cutting ending up tiny and flat.


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## buddha (Sep 13, 2010)

Pscarb said:


> its because my metabolism increased as the diet went on, my calories fluctuate depending on the show at the moment i am on 1600 cals with 1200 coming from protien.....


What 1600 kcal???

Are you on a pre comp diet? At what body weight? 300 gr of protein are not so many but it's all down to your body weight.

Have you enough energy to train?


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

buddha said:


> What 1600 kcal???


Yes 1600 cals....why?



buddha said:


> Are you on a pre comp diet?


yes I have 3 weeks to go



buddha said:


> At what body weight?


203lbs



buddha said:


> 300 gr of protein are not so many but it's all down to your body weight.


it is 1.5g per lb enough for anyone



buddha said:


> Have you enough energy to train?


Yes and do 90min cardio per day


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## Reaper 2X3 (Nov 21, 2011)

As said, drive most of your cals via protein and you will get a very clean size increase. Just ensure you are also getting plenty of veg and fruit in as its not healthy to just nail pure protein, produces a lot of waste in the blood that puts pressure on the kidneys.


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## miguelmolez (Apr 12, 2010)

I'm running 600mg of test c in my cut. Personally I've not lost any LBM and my strength has gone up slightly, but I dont look any bigger. I'm just happy to keep what muscle I have to be honest.


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

Reaper 2X3 said:


> As said, drive most of your cals via protein and you will get a very clean size increase. Just ensure you are also getting plenty of veg and fruit in as its not healthy to just nail pure protein, produces a lot of waste in the blood that puts pressure on the kidneys.


Protien does not cause ALOT of waste and the stress on a healthy kidney is not great.

Also needs to be mentioned if you eat more calories than you need you will get fat no matter if they are from protien or fat


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## Little stu (Oct 26, 2011)

Don't eat don't grow and test test and more test mmmmmm


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## buddha (Sep 13, 2010)

Pscarb said:


> Yes 1600 cals....why?
> 
> yes I have 3 weeks to go
> 
> ...


Well 1600 kcal looks really low even for a 50kg girl that's why I was asking and at 203 lbs at a low bf plus working out and working, it is even lower.

I know you know what you are doing so I am not criticizing but I was surprised cause you are not even covering you basal metabolism at rest.

Also with 1200 out of 1600 kcal you are not probably having a decent percentage of fats in your diet.

Can you explain a bit why you are so low in calories and how can you manage it?

Thanks


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## Fat (Jan 2, 2010)

I would assume that he wouldn't go that low on calories if he wasn't on AAS.


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

buddha said:


> Well 1600 kcal looks really low even for a 50kg girl that's why I was asking and at 203 lbs at a low bf plus working out and working, it is even lower.
> 
> I know you know what you are doing so I am not criticizing but I was surprised cause you are not even covering you basal metabolism at rest.
> 
> ...


your response shows how many think that if someone fixes a number to something it is set for everyone.......

can i ask you why do i need to cover my basal metabolism if the number of cals i am eating is mainting my muscle and dropping fat?

on training days my breakdown is 75/19/6 (P/C/F)

on non training days my breakdown is 75/0/25

all my fats are from good fats and 4 days out of 7 i get 25% of my calories from good fats, the numbers are low because this is the end results of 15 weeks dieting reducing the numbers by the week to maintain progress........

how i manage it is because i have to so that i can be shredded and still maintain my muscle base so i can compete and win......


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

Fat said:


> I would assume that he wouldn't go that low on calories if he wasn't on AAS.


Assumptions are a wonderful thing


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## buddha (Sep 13, 2010)

Pscarb said:


> your response shows how many think that if someone fixes a number to something it is set for everyone.......
> 
> can i ask you why do i need to cover my basal metabolism if the number of cals i am eating is mainting my muscle and dropping fat?
> 
> ...


Actually setting numbers for everybody is not behind my question

From my studies as ISSA personal trainer it is known that every kg of lean body mass requires a specific number of calories just to survive and a general yet unpecise starting point is bodyweight x24

Of course you have to make adjustments but that is a starting point to which add the calories needed for the activities and the calories your body needs to digest the proteins themeselves.

I have to say that I have always been a bit skeptical to those calculations as when applying it the average calories one should eat were always a lot but 1600 kcal are really low and knowing that you know what you do I was curious to understand.

Of course you know your body and have a very wide experience with it but I was asking myself if you could not prepare for the event even wit more calories.that's it


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

so your a PT so now i understand the need to justify the calories i am taking more than that is what is needed.......

ask your self one thing if i could prep for this show and the others after with more food would I??? of course i would but i am not looking to be lean i am looking to be shredded, i was lean 6 weeks ago eating 2500-3000 cals a day...

can i ask have you ever stepped on stage or dieting to step on stage?


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## Ragingagain (Sep 4, 2010)

Pscarb said:


> your response shows how many think that if someone fixes a number to something it is set for everyone.......
> 
> can i ask you why do i need to cover my basal metabolism if the number of cals i am eating is mainting my muscle and dropping fat?
> 
> ...


O M G, wow, that is genuinely news to me, explains a lot actually.


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## buddha (Sep 13, 2010)

Pscarb said:


> so your a PT so now i understand the need to justify the calories i am taking more than that is what is needed.......
> 
> ask your self one thing if i could prep for this show and the others after with more food would I??? of course i would but i am not looking to be lean i am looking to be shredded, i was lean 6 weeks ago eating 2500-3000 cals a day...
> 
> can i ask have you ever stepped on stage or dieting to step on stage?


Well actually I just studied as a PT but I am not working as such.

No I never walked the stage or dieted for it that's why I was asking you: I wanted to match what I know with the pre-comp practice.

As I said I am not criticizing I was just curious to understand.

If I you want to put it differently I was interested to know why your set point to get lean and shredded is from 3000 to 1600 kcal which again in theory is low or lower than some other guys. You even read sometime of Pro guys in the States getting shredded at 6000 Kcal

For example: there are guys with T3, TSH and T4 values which are ok but that must go really down with calories to lose fat. A few add some T4 to become euthyroidal (? don't know the right term in English) and their metabolism spikes up so I asked myself if that might be your case.

Anyway, as I said, you know better than me your body and have a great overall preparation and knowledge to judge better than me what's good for you.


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

Well firstly never believe the stories about the Pro's as they are all false believe me I know a fair few Pro's

The way I diet is not unlike many many others you start at your off season calorie total then you decrease as you see as appropriate until you get the shredded look you are after, some can do this without cardio and still a lot of calories some cannot......I am in the later group.......


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## buddha (Sep 13, 2010)

anab0lic said:


> As your body gets leaner and leaner it becomes more efficient at running on a lower amount of calories...your only option from there if you want to remove that last bit of fat is to take the calories lower or increase energy expenditure through more cardio.....


yes you are right it's just that, at least as natural and not even at the % BF Paul is now or was weeks ago, I could barely walk at 1600 Kcal.

What happened in the past is that when trying to eat as low as needed to shred fat I was feeling mainly dizzy at all times, with really low energy etc.

that's why I asked how he could managed 1600Kcal.

I tried to add a stimulant, a fat loss supplement, but I got shaky all the time as I am pretty sensitive to stims so I could not find my asset.


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## buddha (Sep 13, 2010)

Pscarb said:


> Well firstly never believe the stories about the Pro's as they are all false believe me I know a fair few Pro's
> 
> The way I diet is not unlike many many others you start at your off season calorie total then you decrease as you see as appropriate until you get the shredded look you are after, some can do this without cardio and still a lot of calories some cannot......I am in the later group.......


Have you ever tested your thyroid level during the pre-comp phase or even in the bulking phase to see if your thyroid is as active as it should be?

Of course on GH, T4 is generally in but maybe you need a bit more.


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

buddha said:


> yes you are right it's just that, at least as natural and not even at the % BF Paul is now or was weeks ago, I could barely walk at 1600 Kcal.
> 
> What happened in the past is that when trying to eat as low as needed to shred fat I was feeling mainly dizzy at all times, with really low energy etc.
> 
> ...


Don't be mistaken I am not bouncing off the walls by any means and my strength is on the floor but it is what is needed plus I have dropped to this amount over a 14 week period if you drop to fast you lose a lot of energy and go dizzy you have to acclimatize your body to the reduced calories...


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## hungryH (Oct 9, 2010)

Hey I know this is a month old post lol but I'd love your input PScarb on this, because I've been looking to start a " recomp" cycle over the summer where I will be running test tren and eq, but keeping my calories the same as they currently are on my cruising dosage at maintenance calories.

Would this be completely pointless then?I was hoping to lose a bit of fat and gain a bit of muscle.


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## musio (Jan 25, 2008)

I've been researching this topic and came up this this thread which deserves a bump. Great read. Keeping your calories floating just above maintenance on gear is good as that excess gets utilised well by the gear. It's when people go way off they put on fat. Raise your cals and keeping a close track on everything will allow you to 'recomp'. Adding more muscle will look better with a little fat than cutting with minimal muscle which maybe addresses those who ask this question (for look reasons!)


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## Rav212 (May 18, 2011)

So at what % above maintance calories should one go to maximise utilly by gaining as much lean muscle as possible whilst accumulating the least amount of fat possible!

What's the most efficient % increase of calores here? 10%,20%,50%?

For this sake lets also say an individual Is injecting an average of 1g of anabolics a week!

So does any1 have the Mathamatical formual to maximise bodybuilder utility here? Lol?


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## cas (Jan 9, 2011)

buddha said:


> Well actually I just studied as a PT but I am not working as such.
> 
> No I never walked the stage or dieted for it that's why I was asking you: I wanted to match what I know with the pre-comp practice.
> 
> ...


I dieted on 1500 calories last year...I didn't loose a lot of mass (I didn't have much to start with lol) some people do things differently, but doesn't make it wrong


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## Rav212 (May 18, 2011)

Good bump btw mate


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## s3_abv (Feb 10, 2010)

Pscarb said:


> its because my metabolism increased as the diet went on, my calories fluctuate depending on the show at the moment i am on 1600 cals with 1200 coming from protien.....


What do you weigh paul, you look quite a big guy...

Do you lower the cals that low for the final week of contest or is that throughout?


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

s3_abv said:


> What do you weigh paul, you look quite a big guy...
> 
> Do you lower the cals that low for the final week of contest or is that throughout?


i weigh 200lbs on stage mate, that calorie number is a progressive amount so i start higher and drop the calories as the weeks go by


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## zak007 (Nov 12, 2011)

Pscarb said:


> i weigh 200lbs on stage mate, that calorie number is a progressive amount so i start higher and drop the calories as the weeks go by


anno theres no one size fits all but be interesting to hear what your cals start of at when you start to diet for a show

and do you use the same method each show or do you need to alter it each cut

also for a natty do you reckon there would be a lot of muscle loss using something similar to your way or too many variables


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

zak007 said:


> anno theres no one size fits all but be interesting to hear what your cals start of at when you start to diet for a show
> 
> and do you use the same method each show or do you need to alter it each cut
> 
> also for a natty do you reckon there would be a lot of muscle loss using something similar to your way or too many variables


i will have to look up the calories at the start once i get back home on Thursday mate, each prep is unique in one way or another as your body will not adjust as it has done in the past sometimes it is a large change sometimes not.

a natty could do this just adjustment takes more thought due to the potential for muscle loss, i have prepped naturals with minimum muscle loss (no natty loses no muscle)


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## zak007 (Nov 12, 2011)

Pscarb said:


> i will have to look up the calories at the start once i get back home on Thursday mate, each prep is unique in one way or another as your body will not adjust as it has done in the past sometimes it is a large change sometimes not.
> 
> a natty could do this just adjustment takes more thought due to the potential for muscle loss, i have prepped naturals with minimum muscle loss (no natty loses no muscle)


yeah ave read a few of your stories about coaching guys and popped you a pm before but got no reply and am now with scott

read a post of yours recently which said you werent taking on clients a while ago so probably about the same time a pmd you


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## Tom90 (Jan 29, 2010)

If you were to do fasted LISS cardio, on Test, whilst eating in a caloric surplus, is there any chance of burning a bit of fat through cardio, but still managing to build muscle due to eating throughout the rest of the day? Any thoughts?


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

zak007 said:


> yeah ave read a few of your stories about coaching guys and popped you a pm before but got no reply and am now with scott
> 
> read a post of yours recently which said you werent taking on clients a while ago so probably about the same time a pmd you


yes late last year after 45 weeks prep i intended to close the book on new clients as i needed time for me and the family, thankfully i am able to spend a little more time with clients now.....you will do great with Scott....



Tom90 said:


> If you were to do fasted LISS cardio, on Test, whilst eating in a caloric surplus, is there any chance of burning a bit of fat through cardio, but still managing to build muscle due to eating throughout the rest of the day? Any thoughts?


the cardio might burn some fat but the surplus through the day would negate that i feel over time


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## rectus (Jan 18, 2012)

I feel like I've put on muscle during my cut but it's more likely I look more muscular because of the body fat dropped, BUT can't the change in nutrient partitioning by using compounds like Tren cause muscle growth even when in a deficit? Or is that just physically impossible? @dtlv


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## Tom90 (Jan 29, 2010)

Pscarb said:


> the cardio might burn some fat but the surplus through the day would negate that i feel over time


I see, so fasted cardio could still help to minimise fat gain when you're eating in a caloric surplus?


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

Tom90 said:


> I see, so fasted cardio could still help to minimise fat gain when you're eating in a caloric surplus?


yes, your goal is to gain muscle which will not happen if you are not eating enough calories and because of this dropping fat would be hard to say the least, so what you can do through both eating clean sources of food and cardio is gain but with less fat than you would normally....


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

rectus said:


> I feel like I've put on muscle during my cut but it's more likely I look more muscular because of the body fat dropped, BUT can't the change in nutrient partitioning by using compounds like Tren cause muscle growth even when in a deficit? Or is that just physically impossible? @dtlv


It's not impossible - think of energy balance this way: when the body is in a negative energy balance (calorie deficit) it is losing stored chemical energy to the amount of the deficit each day spread over loss of glycogen, muscle, fat, bone and organ weight. It is not impossible in this situation that on a day where you lose say 200kcals of energy from your body you lose it like this: -75kcal of glycogen, -75kcal fat, -75kcal organ weight = 225kcal and at the same time gain 25kcal muscle = -200kcal energy balance but be more muscular.

The above example uses random numbers, so please nobody quote me saying dtlv says its easy to add 25kcal of muscle protein per day on a cut or the the above represents the ratio that tissue masses will actually change when on a cut, but the point is that when everything is bang on, it is possible to gain some muscle in kcal deficit or even to gain weight for short periods without adding much fat.

The most common situations for this kind of thing to happen is for overweight newbies to simultaneously lose fat and gain muscle, but it gets harder and harder the more lean you get, and at very lean (below average body fat levels) it becomes almost impossible without a pretty much perfect diet and PEDs - but drugs like tren can make it easier so long as diet is optimal at the same time.


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