# Is a carb up needed?



## G-man99 (Jul 15, 2008)

Currently cutting on around 1900 cals

250g Pro - 150g carb - 30g fat

Running T3 50mcg and adding in cardio etc to increase the deficit

Is a carb up needed maybe every 7-10 days or not?

If so, what is the best way to go about it and what carbs are best used?


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## BigKid (Apr 4, 2014)

G-man99 said:


> Currently cutting on around 1900 cals
> 
> 250g Pro - 150g carb - 30g fat
> 
> ...


You'll know you to carb up if you become flat, can't get any kind of pump and generally feel so lethargic, obviously lethargy comes with being in a deficit but it's a different level of lethargy when your glycogen is completely depleted, once a week is usually the norm, either a refeed, junk refeed or all out cheat day/meal


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## G-man99 (Jul 15, 2008)

BigKid said:


> You'll know you to carb up if you become flat, can't get any kind of pump and generally feel so lethargic, obviously lethargy comes with being in a deficit but it's a different level of lethargy when your glycogen is completely depleted, once a week is usually the norm, either a refeed, junk refeed or all out cheat day/meal


My stamina is struggling and come the end of my session I am done for and feel pretty sh1t.

I know T3 can also add to the lethargy

Will try a carb refeed at the weekend after my workout, then smash a big bowl of oats and syrup on top of my daily food but slightly lower pro/fat to avoid going hugely over daily cals


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## BigKid (Apr 4, 2014)

G-man99 said:


> My stamina is struggling and come the end of my session I am done for and feel pretty sh1t.
> 
> I know T3 can also add to the lethargy
> 
> Will try a carb refeed at the weekend after my workout, then smash a big bowl of oats and syrup on top of my daily food but slightly lower pro/fat to avoid going hugely over daily cals


What I've seen some people do is just up their carbs all the way up to their maintenance calories but not go over, avoids any supposed fat gain


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## G-man99 (Jul 15, 2008)

BigKid said:


> What I've seen some people do is just up their carbs all the way up to their maintenance calories but not go over, avoids any supposed fat gain


Will try it over the weekend.

Looking forward to having a meal and actually feeling properly full up!


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## Big ape (May 5, 2011)

30g a fat a day  my hormones would be all over the place, a moody ****


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## andyboro (Oct 1, 2006)

I end up feeling really lethargic and crappy but I narrowed it down to running too lean on calories. .

Depends on your bodyweight/stats of course but there is a point where the deficit becomes too big to train effectively IMO.


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## andyboro (Oct 1, 2006)

** double post **


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## Abc987 (Sep 26, 2013)

G-man99 said:


> Currently cutting on around 1900 cals
> 
> 250g Pro - 150g carb - 30g fat
> 
> ...


Fvck me mate them cals are low. I'm on about 2800 ATM and just managing, on tren I struggled bad on 3700

Personally I think a carb up is needed, one day or meal ain't gonna effect a cut that much you'll notice IMO. When on really low carbs after a few days I feel like shvt so would have a carb up, maybe a sugar fix like a few biscuits which sorted the problem

I'm on a timed carb diet ATM and it's working really well. Have all my carbs around training and had them by 6.30am apart from the odd few from veg. Still again though have a sugar fix every few days


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## Galaxy (Aug 1, 2011)

As far as I remember you are just starting your cut?

In my opinion a carb up is definitely not needed, nice to do but not needed.

Why cals so low? Or doing a quick harsh cut?


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## G-man99 (Jul 15, 2008)

Galaxy said:


> As far as I remember you are just starting your cut?
> 
> In my opinion a carb up is definitely not needed, nice to do but not needed.
> 
> Why cals so low? Or doing a quick harsh cut?


Just a cheeky 6 week cut to get my definition out ready for holiday.

Been at it 2 weeks now


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## H_JM_S (Mar 27, 2012)

I was cutting on 60g carbs and 100g fat with 50mg T3 and 300mg tren and felt awful mate. I don't know how you're surviving on that many cals with your size


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## G-man99 (Jul 15, 2008)

H_JM_S said:


> I was cutting on 60g carbs and 100g fat with 50mg T3 and 300mg tren and felt awful mate. I don't know how you're surviving on that many cals with your size


Var and winny is killing my appetite so I'm not suffering much in terms of hunger.

Those cals are approximates too as I'm not weighing everything, just mentally keeping an eye on meals.

Example (foods chance every few days)

1. Yog, whey, berries

2. Steamed cod, green beans, 150g Jersey royals

3. Tuna and boiled egg salad

4. Chicken, rice and a sauce

5. Steak, asparagus, 150g wedges

6. Yog, whey, berries

Pwo - 50g cereal and 25g whey

Snacks - sugar free jellies and coke zero


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## 31205 (Jan 16, 2013)

I was cutting on 15-1600 cals. 240p 35c 35f ish. I think having a big carb meal every 2/3 weeks worked best.

I was probably a lot lighter weight than you though.

What I don't get is why fat people have refeeds every week.


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## A1243R (Nov 2, 2014)

Abc987 said:


> Fvck me mate them cals are low. I'm on about 2800 ATM and just managing, on tren I struggled bad on 3700
> 
> Personally I think a carb up is needed, one day or meal ain't gonna effect a cut that much you'll notice IMO. When on really low carbs after a few days I feel like shvt so would have a carb up, maybe a sugar fix like a few biscuits which sorted the problem
> 
> I'm on a timed carb diet ATM and it's working really well. Have all my carbs around training and had them by 6.30am apart from the odd few from veg. Still again though have a sugar fix every few days


That may be why you felt like **** mate because you were having a carb up to often? Ie not leaving it long enough for low carbs to kick in!


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## Mark2021 (Apr 13, 2012)

Yes a refeed day is needed weekly!


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## G-man99 (Jul 15, 2008)

Mark2021 said:


> Yes a refeed day is needed weekly!


How would you go about with my above diet as an example?


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## G-man99 (Jul 15, 2008)

Current condition

Still carrying lower ab fat and generally flat though










13st 10lb


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## Abc987 (Sep 26, 2013)

A1243R said:


> That may be why you felt like **** mate because you were having a carb up to often? Ie not leaving it long enough for low carbs to kick in!


When I say a few days sometimes it might be a week. I'm only on about 140-150carbs now and doing fine.

Tbh I think it was the tren as I'm on 1k less and don't struggle nowhere near as much. Some say they can't eat in tren where all I wanted to do was eat


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## Abc987 (Sep 26, 2013)

G-man99 said:


> Current condition
> 
> Still carrying lower ab fat and generally flat though
> 
> ...


Looking fvcking great mate. I personally wouldn't want to go much lower than that anyway


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## Dark sim (May 18, 2013)

Mark2021 said:


> Yes a refeed day is needed weekly!


Why?


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## G-man99 (Jul 15, 2008)

Abc987 said:


> Looking fvcking great mate. I personally wouldn't want to go much lower than that anyway


Look sh1t relaxed from the front though.

Without a pump or tensed I almost look like I don't really train???


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## Abc987 (Sep 26, 2013)

G-man99 said:


> Look sh1t relaxed from the front though.
> 
> Without a pump or tensed I almost look like I don't really train???


Lol it's all in you head. As you said to me we see ourselves different

The flat feeling ain't nice is it. Have a carb up and you'll feel much better not only in yourself but you'll fill full again.


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## Mark2021 (Apr 13, 2012)

Dark sim said:


> Why?


Well this is from my opinion on my body, and he feels flat.

Will only do him good tbh!


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Some people now seem to favour periodic high carb meals, as opposed to days, but I'm not sure what sort of protocols people actually follow. IIRC @dtlv suggests once every 3-4 days but I'm not sure what sort of calorie or carb levels make sense.

As I understand it the logic behind more frequent high carb refeeds is that the effect on leptin after each one is relatively short lived.

I've no idea if adding T3 into the mix changes the situation.


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## Mark2021 (Apr 13, 2012)

G-man99 said:


> How would you go about with my above diet as an example?


I would go with your normal diet however drop some fats and veggies and add carbs to every meal.

I would go upto 400/500g carbs that day. Keep your diet clean though


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## H_JM_S (Mar 27, 2012)

I had to have a cheat meal once a week personally .... only way I could get myself to stay on track with the diet during the week. I'm not looking to compete but still got myself down to around or slightly below 10% bf for the first time in my life.

If you feel really flat then have a refeed imo


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## G-man99 (Jul 15, 2008)

I allow myself a small margin for a biscuit or a hot chocolate etc but we are talking 100-150 cals max every other day as an example.

Oh and ice pops ha ha.

Saves me craving things so much.

Will have a decent carb up Sat evening and see where I am.


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## G-man99 (Jul 15, 2008)

Will be happy to be around 11-12% so in 5 weeks I should be near.

Starting to do 40 mins fasted LISS cardio 3 times a week and will use 20mg yohimbine


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## Dark sim (May 18, 2013)

TommyBananas said:


> A re-feed is not 'needed' in so many cases but the psychological benefit is the most useful imo.
> 
> I actually have 5 loweer calorie days (1800) and two higher calorie days (2400 and 2800) - in which I drop protein a little, lower the fat and have v.high carbs. Works well as they're both the days before my heavy lifting days.


Agreed. Feeling flat is not a reason to refeed, as this is temporary. If your progress is stalling then this can be a reason to refeed (replenish leptin), and as mentioned above, a psychological benefit.

On them calories you will feel tired, that is part and parcel of dieting hard.


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## G-man99 (Jul 15, 2008)

Dark sim said:


> Agreed. Feeling flat is not a reason to refeed, as this is temporary. If your progress is stalling then this can be a reason to refeed (replenish leptin), and as mentioned above, a psychological benefit.
> 
> On them calories you will feel tired, that is part and parcel of dieting hard.


The thing is, I'm only dieting for a holiday and nothing more.

I've still got another 5 weeks to go and want to be enjoying my training.

Where as I'm not craving much or starving, it is the general struggle with stamina in my workout and just looking flat.

I'll try the one meal refeed on Saturday evening but still keep it clean.

Can then evaluate if it is beneficial for me

Looking at 250g instant oats with milk and syrup

This will be on top of my daily intake.


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## zyphy (Jun 23, 2014)

If you're only 2 weeks into your diet you don't really need it IMO..


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## G-man99 (Jul 15, 2008)

Plus, I've only been on Tren Ace for 2 weeks, I'm sure when it's gets working then the body composition will be better and help my mental image of myself!


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## 31205 (Jan 16, 2013)

Mate you look great!

I also look like I don't train when I'm relaxed and no pump!


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## Abc987 (Sep 26, 2013)

IMO it is needed if you feel its needed. Your not a professional so it's about finding a happy medium to enjoy it but get the results


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## G-man99 (Jul 15, 2008)

Abc987 said:


> IMO it is needed if you feel its needed. Your not a professional so it's about finding a happy medium to enjoy it but get the results


This is what I'm thinking mate.

It's a hobby and not my 100% life

One meal ain't gonna ruin anything


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## G-man99 (Jul 15, 2008)

I'd rather have one controlled clean refeed meal than cave in and end up having a 2000cal + binge!


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## Dark sim (May 18, 2013)

G-man99 said:


> The thing is, I'm only dieting for a holiday and nothing more.
> 
> I've still got another 5 weeks to go and want to be enjoying my training.
> 
> ...


It's no biggie. If you feel you need it, do it.

Reduce fats on that day you've planned.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

As Sen said you're already in great shape for a holiday .


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## G-man99 (Jul 15, 2008)

Dark sim said:


> It's no biggie. If you feel you need it, do it.
> 
> Reduce fats on that day you've planned.


Cheers mate, appreciate the advice

Makes me have so much respect for the likes of yourself and anyone else who can get in stage condition.


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

You don't need a refeed at all if carbs, or more specifically starches and glucose rather than total carbs, are at or above a certain level within an overall energy deficit as leptin, t3 and glycogen levels will all be high enough to keep anaerobic exercise performance high, appetite controlled and mood and energy levels up.

When going keto or very low carbs and in a prolonged calorie deficit however, hunger, loss of energy and poor mood and performance become more of an issue, and in this situation refeeding can help a lot.

There is nothing wrong with the traditional once weekly large refeed, but anyone who has done this for a while will know that the bump up in mood, energy and reduced hunger that results from it doesn't last more than a couple of days leaving you with 3-4 days when all you are doing is waiting for the next refeed. A far better option for otherwise low carbers IMO is to do smaller refeeds every 3-4 days, as that leaves you feeling much better generally. This works because of the short term effects of such a refeed on leptin - 2-3 days of a boost no matter how high the intake of glucose or starch.

The distinction between glucose and starch and sugary carbs is important, as sucrose, lactose and fructose and other carbs like fructans do not bump up leptin - it has to be a high glucose refeed to work. Many people fail to realise the necessity of this to make it work properly so don't ever see the best possible effect.


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## G-man99 (Jul 15, 2008)

dtlv said:


> You don't need a refeed at all if carbs, or more specifically starches and glucose rather than total carbs, are at or above a certain level within an overall energy deficit as leptin, t3 and glycogen levels will all be high enough to keep anaerobic exercise performance high, appetite controlled and mood and energy levels up.
> 
> When going keto or very low carbs and in a prolonged calorie deficit however, hunger, loss of energy and poor mood and performance become more of an issue, and in this situation refeeding can help a lot.
> 
> ...


An example of such foods please mate


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## G-man99 (Jul 15, 2008)

Should I put this back in the fridge???


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

G-man99 said:


> An example of such foods please mate


Potatoes, white and brown rice, pasta, quinoa, sweet pots, oats, pasta. Dextrose, maltodextrin and carb powders (except palatinose) are all excellent.

Avoid fruit on a carb up day and especially fruit juice. Also avoid obvious stuff like non-diet soda, cereals, bread, candy and milk and anything that uses HFCS.

Basically watch out for anything with more than a few g's of sugar - a little bit is of course fine but you shouldn't base the refeed around bulk feeds of anything with a high sugar content.


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## G-man99 (Jul 15, 2008)

dtlv said:


> Potatoes, white and brown rice, pasta, quinoa, sweet pots, oats, pasta. Dextrose, maltodextrin and carb powders (except palatinose) are all excellent.
> 
> Avoid fruit on a carb up day and especially fruit juice. Also avoid obvious stuff like non-diet soda, cereals, bread, candy and milk and anything that uses HFCS.
> 
> Basically watch out for anything with more than a few g's of sugar - a little bit is of course fine but you shouldn't base the refeed around bulk feeds of anything with a high sugar content.


Much appreciated mate


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## GaryMatt (Feb 28, 2014)

Day 1 - 250g Pro - 150g carb - 30g fat

Day 2 - 250g Pro - 80g carb - 30g fat

Day 3 - Sane as day2, just get all the carbs in before 2 pm, or so.

Repeat

The constant change is good. If you flatten out, load. If you're gonna use t3, may as well peptide as well.

Fasted morning cardio.

Stair master after you lift.

Morning and post wo carbs frozen berries (in the blender with egg whites) with oats or ezekiel bread. Jasmine rice is getting popular too. Yams.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

dtlv said:


> You don't need a refeed at all if carbs, or more specifically starches and glucose rather than total carbs, are at or above a certain level within an overall energy deficit as leptin, t3 and glycogen levels will all be high enough to keep anaerobic exercise performance high, appetite controlled and mood and energy levels up.
> 
> When going keto or very low carbs and in a prolonged calorie deficit however, hunger, loss of energy and poor mood and performance become more of an issue, and in this situation refeeding can help a lot.


Would I be right in thinking that rather than suggesting a particular carb intake that constitutes being sufficiently low carb to merit refeeds, that you would go by the symptoms you described i.e. loss of enery, poor mood and performance becoming an issue?

I had thought that rather than purely being carb intake dependent that leptin levels were also affected by fat stores, such that refeeds become beneficial when people get increasingly lean even if not on very low carb diets, is that right? If so would it still be a case of being guided by symtoms rather than planning refeeds into a diet from the start?



> There is nothing wrong with the traditional once weekly large refeed, but anyone who has done this for a while will know that the bump up in mood, energy and reduced hunger that results from it doesn't last more than a couple of days leaving you with 3-4 days when all you are doing is waiting for the next refeed. A far better option for otherwise low carbers IMO is to do smaller refeeds every 3-4 days, as that leaves you feeling much better generally. This works because of the short term effects of such a refeed on leptin - 2-3 days of a boost no matter how high the intake of glucose or starch.


What sort of carb (starch) intake would you suggest for these smaller refeeds?



> The distinction between glucose and starch and sugary carbs is important, as sucrose, lactose and fructose and other carbs like fructans do not bump up leptin - it has to be a high glucose refeed to work. Many people fail to realise the necessity of this to make it work properly so don't ever see the best possible effect.


I'd always thought that since sucrose is digested to 50% glucose and 50% fructose that it would still have an effect on leptin, just half that of the equivalent amount of starch, is that right? It would still make sense to prioritise starch over sucrose but doesn't mean the latter is totally useless?


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

G-man99 said:


> Should I put this back in the fridge???
> View attachment 174074


This probably wasn't something you were going to eat anyway but FWIW I'd have put it back because of the likely fat content, not just sugar. You can eat a lot of carbs in a refeed without them causing fat gain (it goes primarily to replenishing glycogen stores) but any fat you consume with the carbs is almost exclusively going to end up as body fat I believe.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

dtlv said:


> Potatoes, white and brown rice, pasta, quinoa, sweet pots, oats, pasta. Dextrose, maltodextrin and carb powders (except palatinose) are all excellent.
> 
> Avoid fruit on a carb up day and especially fruit juice. Also avoid obvious stuff like non-diet soda, cereals, bread, candy and milk and anything that uses HFCS.
> 
> Basically watch out for anything with more than a few g's of sugar - a little bit is of course fine but you shouldn't base the refeed around bulk feeds of anything with a high sugar content.


To add something to the list, I'm a fan of crumpets as a starch source when cutting. Just toasted with nothing on them I still enjoy them. Not sure what the American term for them would be so for dtlv I'll mention I mean something like these:

Warburtons Crumpets 6 Pack -- - Groceries - Tesco Groceries

(I'm assuming the suggestion to avoid bread above was due to sugar and fat content, so crumpets are still a good choice I think, unless dtlv corrects me.)

As a side note I've always avoided oats on refeed days due to the fat content, but perhaps I'm being too picky there.


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## G-man99 (Jul 15, 2008)

Ultrasonic said:


> This probably wasn't something you were going to eat anyway but FWIW I'd have put it back because of the likely fat content, not just sugar. You can eat a lot of carbs in a refeed without them causing fat gain (it goes primarily to replenishing glycogen stores) but any fat you consume with the carbs is almost exclusively going to end up as body fat I believe.


Nah, that is just one of the many treats I will be looking forward to when I go to USA for 3 weeks and totally blow the diet out of the window and gain around 14lbs at least


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## Dark sim (May 18, 2013)

dtlv said:


> You don't need a refeed at all if carbs, or more specifically starches and glucose rather than total carbs, are at or above a certain level within an overall energy deficit as leptin, t3 and glycogen levels will all be high enough to keep anaerobic exercise performance high, appetite controlled and mood and energy levels up.
> 
> When going keto or very low carbs and in a prolonged calorie deficit however, hunger, loss of energy and poor mood and performance become more of an issue, and in this situation refeeding can help a lot.
> 
> ...


Some questions -

1) Thought it was only fructose that did not effect leptin?

2) If it has to be a high glucose for the refeed to work, why in your next post are non-diet drinks ruled out, when they are mostly glucose based?

3) Why would leptin levels remain higher for longer due to different carb sources being used?

4) Although kind of unrelated, why does skiploading in terms of carbs/sugars used differ from the refeed you have suggested, when in fact they are trying to achieve the same thing?


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Dark sim said:


> 2) If it has to be a high glucose for the refeed to work, why in your next post are non-diet drinks ruled out, when they are mostly glucose based?


I think this may be a US/UK difference, with soft drinks is the US being sweetened using HFCS, whilst I don't think they are in the UK. Although I didn't realise they generally used glucose rather than sucrose? Unless you were thinking of sports drinks perhaps?

Edit: HFCS only has a bit more fructose than sucrose FWIW, it's not a massive difference.


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

Ultrasonic said:


> Would I be right in thinking that rather than suggesting a particular carb intake that constitutes being sufficiently low carb to merit refeeds, that you would go by the symptoms you described i.e. loss of enery, poor mood and performance becoming an issue?
> 
> I had thought that rather than purely being carb intake dependent that leptin levels were also affected by fat stores, such that refeeds become beneficial when people get increasingly lean even if not on very low carb diets, is that right? If so would it still be a case of being guided by symtoms rather than planning refeeds into a diet from the start?


Yep, that's exactly how I look at it. If someone clearly doesn't get on well with higher carbs on a cut and merits a lower carb approach I'll usually first try it without refeeds, then bring the refeed in if there appears to be need. Some people don't need it but most benefit.



Ultrasonic said:


> What sort of carb (starch) intake would you suggest for these smaller refeeds?


Individual depended. Food selection and quantity based on what works for the specific person.



Ultrasonic said:


> I'd always thought that since sucrose is digested to 50% glucose and 50% fructose that it would still have an effect on leptin, just half that of the equivalent amount of starch, is that right? It would still make sense to prioritize starch over sucrose but doesn't mean the latter is totally useless?


Studies show a very minimal effect on leptin from sucrose, so if the point of the refeed is upregulating leptin then it makes sense to maximize the nutrient that effects leptin the most. As you say, there won't be zero effect from just eating more carbs without discriminating which ones, but it is less than if really going at it to maximize glucose intake.


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

Dark sim said:


> Some questions -
> 
> 1) Thought it was only fructose that did not effect leptin?
> 
> ...


1) Basically it's only glucose that ups leptin to any significant degree. Fructose and galactose, the other monosaccharides that along with glucose make up most sugars, either have no or no significant impact on leptin, so it's best to focus on glucose or polymers of glucose only for the purpose of a leptin boosting refeed.

2) Most non-diet sodas have a high sugar content where the sugar comes from high fructose corn syrup (HFCS) where the fructose content is 50-70 percent. There are a few exceptions like lucozade and some other sports drinks, but mostly those kinds of drinks are not too high in glucose.

3) Not so much higher for longer, just higher overall.

4)When otherwise low carb and carb refeeding, whether high glucose or not, glycogen levels are replenished. This in itself can have a profound benefit on exercise performance and often mood that is separate to effects on leptin. Skiploading is basically a refeed that focuses on the glycogen replenishment rather than a refeed with an additional or increased leptin effect.

I think skiploading is fine, and maybe a preferable choice psychologically if someone basically needs a day off from the stress of counting grams of macros so much - it will elevate leptin some, it's just not likely to do so as much.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

dtlv said:


> 2) Most non-diet sodas have a high sugar content where the sugar comes from high fructose corn syrup (HFCS) where the fructose content is 50-70 percent.


Whilst true in the US, this is not the case it the UK. HFCS is rarely if ever present in drinks here.


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## monkeez (Mar 5, 2013)

Ultrasonic said:


> Whilst true in the US, this is not the case it the UK. HFCS is rarely if ever present in drinks here.


Yes it is but it is called Glucose Fructose Syrup over here and you would be surprised at how many different foods contain it.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

monkeez said:


> Yes it is but it is called Glucose Fructose Syrup over here and you would be surprised at how many different foods contain it.


It is definitely used far less here. Coca Cola doesn't contain it for example, whereas the US version does. I'll have a look next time I go shopping if I remember but I strongly suspect I'll struggle to find it in anything. Do you know any specific products that use it?

Edit: note we're specifically talking about drinks here, not other foods.


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## monkeez (Mar 5, 2013)

Ultrasonic said:


> It is definitely used far less here. Coca Cola doesn't contain it for example, whereas the US version does. I'll have a look next time I go shopping if I remember but I strongly suspect I'll struggle to find it in anything. Do you know any specific products that use it?


I was reading about this the other day so I looked at the stuff in the fridge that my lass had bought.

Ocean Spray drinks, chilli sauce dip, jams etc were the first thing I seen and they all contain it.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

monkeez said:


> I was reading about this the other day so I looked at the stuff in the fridge that my lass had bought.
> 
> Ocean Spray drinks, chilli sauce dip, jams etc were the first thing I seen and they all contain it.


We're just talking about drinks here, carbonated drinks really. I'll give you Ocean Spray though. Tesco just list sugar on the ingredient list, but if you were looking at a label on the actual product I guess that must be right though.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

If drinks here tend to have sucrose rather than HFCS the distinction is pretty moot though, as by the sounds of it neither are any good for stimulating leptin.

@dtlv no reason at all you should know about the different situation in the UK BTW, just mentioning it for the benefit of the majority UK based members.


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