# ATG squats - can't do it!!!



## Beklet

Not sure if it's a flexibility issue or whether I'm actually deformed in some way :laugh:

I seem to be able to do squats OK, generally but I'd like to be able to go much deeper, but having tried to demonstrate my 'technique' earlier, I noticed the following;

I go down till my hams touch my calves but even then the top of my thighs are barely parallel :confused1: (I have very very short legs, or maybe it's because I'm a fat bastard?)

If I try to go lower, my feet either tend to buckle in a bit to keep them flat or my heels raise up (tight calves? I do have very tight quads I have difficulty reaching my foot to stretch them :blush: )

I usually sit the bar quite low on my traps, what there is of them  , if that makes a difference.

Are there any stretches or anything I can do to improve this?


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## Ak_88

Try some hip flexor, quad and hamstring stretches.

Have you tried widening your stance? I generally find i can go lower if i'm wider, so to speak


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## Truewarrior1

you should get someone to help you stretch, hamstring stretches with you lying on your back and they bring up one leg at a time straight and really stretch it to where your leg starts shakin and hold there until it stops then stretch further. you can do something similar for your quads lying on ure front. also theres a stretch where you kneel and then sit back onto your feet pushing your pelvis forward.

you could also try putting plates beneath your **** when you're squatting and going down to touch the plate then take a plate off every week.


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## gerg

I find air squats help me warm up my hip flexors, I usually do 10-20 before regular squats. Hamstring flexibility will come into play too.

Try front squats I find it easier to get better depth with these.

some useful tips:

k45YlFHn6xs[/MEDIA]]


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## Tall

Beklet said:


> Not sure if it's a flexibility issue or whether I'm actually deformed in some way :laugh:
> 
> I seem to be able to do squats OK, generally but I'd like to be able to go much deeper, but having tried to demonstrate my 'technique' earlier, I noticed the following;
> 
> I go down till my hams touch my calves but even then the top of my thighs are barely parallel :confused1: (I have very very short legs, or maybe it's because I'm a fat bastard?)
> 
> If I try to go lower, my feet either tend to buckle in a bit to keep them flat or my heels raise up (tight calves? I do have very tight quads I have difficulty reaching my foot to stretch them :blush: )
> 
> I usually sit the bar quite low on my traps, what there is of them  , if that makes a difference.
> 
> Are there any stretches or anything I can do to improve this?


I'd bet your knees are going too far over your toes.

Have someone take a photo or video your squats and you'll be able to see the problem

Sounds like weak hamstrings, very common in "new" squatters.


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## Beklet

Right, comments taken on board.....have a crappy meeting today but today is leg day so will try some stretches before I squat and will let you know how I get on....


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## ba baracuss

I wouldn't worry too much myself as long as you're getting to parallel.

I certainly have no desire to ever go ATG as I see no need for it, but everyone is different.


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## ba baracuss

Hamster said:


> Some of the best legs are built on ass to grass squats....you can always tell the difference between who squats above parallel and a full squatter.
> 
> Everyone is different yes and you have to go with what works best for that individual person.


I value my knees more than how much I can lift.

At my height (6'4) it's just not happening as regards the leverage issues.

If I don't get the best legs in the world I'm not too bothered, but to each their own.


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## gerg

deep squats will actually help protect your knees


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## TH0R

ba baracuss said:


> I value my knees more than how much I can lift.
> 
> At my height (6'4) it's just not happening as regards the leverage issues.
> 
> If I don't get the best legs in the world I'm not too bothered, but to each their own.


I squat to 90 degree and then really go narrow and deep on the leg press, seems to me its a bit safer for my knees this way (but they still ache sometimes)


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## Ak_88

gerg said:


> deep squats will actually help protect your knees


How exactly?

I've always thought that going very deep/ATG is going to put massive pressure on the joint.


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## TH0R

Hmm, you could be right, just found this

Your knee joint is strongest in a fully flexed or full extended position, not the positions in-between. Partial Squats only strengthen your knees & quads, not your glutes & hamstrings. This causes muscle imbalances & thus injuries.

Millions of competitive weightlifters Squat deeper than described in this article. If you have knee pain from Squats, you're using bad technique or you lack ankle/hip mobility. Squatting deep is never the cause.


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## ba baracuss

tel3563 said:


> I squat to 90 degree and then really go narrow and deep on the leg press, seems to me its a bit safer for my knees this way (but they still ache sometimes)


Same here. I go right to the buffers on leg press, but I can feel it in my knees alright.


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## Guest

ba baracuss said:


> I value my knees more than how much I can lift.
> 
> At my height (6'4) it's just not happening as regards the leverage issues.
> 
> If I don't get the best legs in the world I'm not too bothered, but to each their own.


Ive always heard that when the knee is at a 90 its at its most vulnerable. So stopping and accelerating a weight at that point is possibly the worst thing you can do for it.

Anyone else heard this??


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## Beklet

mikex101 said:


> Ive always heard that when the knee is at a 90 its at its most vulnerable. So stopping and accelerating a weight at that point is possibly the worst thing you can do for it.
> 
> Anyone else heard this??


That's what I heard hence wanting to go below parallel

Had a really rubbish workout today - couldn't get into the squats at all, but I did some stretches and a warm up set with just the bar and my heels didn't lift or anything...and the top of my thighs were just below parallel :laugh:

Couldn't get quite so far down with higher weights but that's just gonna take practice.

Think one of the reasons I can't get ATG is that my thighs are actually a fair bit shorter than the lower part of my leg lol :lol:

Cheers all - gonna have to keep working on the squats though!!!


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## Tall

mikex101 said:


> Ive always heard that when the knee is at a 90 its at its most vulnerable. So stopping and accelerating a weight at that point is possibly the worst thing you can do for it.
> 
> Anyone else heard this??


Stress on the knee is the same (or negligable difference) at 70 / 90 and 110 provided form is good.


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## Tall

gerg said:


> deep squats will actually help protect your knees





Ak_88 said:


> How exactly?
> 
> I've always thought that going very deep/ATG is going to put massive pressure on the joint.


Done properly ATG squats will allow more synovial fluid into the knee joint and lube the joint.



Hamster said:


> Google it.
> 
> It's a delicate subject for all BB's but deep squats are actually putting less pressure on the knees.
> 
> Not everyone believes this and there will always be mass debate over this one.


The issue being that BB'er squat with knees over toes to work the quads more, this causes issues when going ATG as the knees are forced very far forward which subsequently places strain on them.

Olly lifters do suffer with their knees in the end.


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## gerg

i'd say just do some squats with no weight every day, and treat it as a dynamic stretch. you aren't going to suddenly develop the flexibility to go deep overnight.

i find if i don't do any light squats before i try and go heavy then i can't get below parallel. After stretching them though i am fine. I still have some hamstring issues though, and my pelvis rotates near the bottom when going very deep, but it's improving slowly.


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## SOUTHMAN

stretch everymorning and night. I was as flexible as a brick after doing this i can put both hands flat on the floor.


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## Kezz

I did some squats for the 1st time in years the other day, went to rock bottom with them and got no knee problems!! YAY!!! i couldnt really go heavy but the main thing is that i can do them again, i find the point where i get the most pain is at 90degrees, but nowt at full squat, to get a good stretch on my legs i put 100k on the bar and dropped to rock bottom and held it there for two seconds before coming back up, for ten reps.... proper blasted my legs i tell thee


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## ElfinTan

As mentioned, wee plates under yur heels and try a wider stance! The fact that you are short has nowt to do with it BUT where your joints are does. Big lifts are all about levers and pulleys and some people have there levers in a better place than others making them much better squatters/dead lifters etc.


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## Guest

Some reading for you Beklet.

http://www.t-nation.com/article/bodybuilding/leg_training_myths_exposed&cr=


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## SD

There are many debates on this forum alone whether to squat ATG or not, there is some anecdotal evidence from the ATG camp that says it puts less pressure on the knee and works your hams, glutes more.

I ruptured my ACL, I can surely say that that Parallel squats are far safer and put a lot less pressure on the knee, I know that because I could do them even after I ruptured my ACL, ATG I definately could not, this may support the ATG camps statement that the ACL is 'loose' and not supporting the joint at this point, trust me! you don't want a tendon taking the brunt force of all that weight anyway!! Your hamstrings will be stabilising the joint and preventing anterior slide as it should, your knee is in no danger here. However, go ATG and you increase the shear forces through the knee in linear proportion to the increasing knee angle, I felt this when I didnt have an ACL so I can surely say, in fully flexed position that there is significant force on the knee.

I went to a Fit Pro conference in Loughborough, there was an Australian physio there doing a conference on squats and behind the neck presses, it was so interesting, he definately believed at beyond 90 degrees, there is a significant increase of shear forces and simply recommended parallels for quads ,then lunges and SLDL's for hams and glutes for safety.

hth

SD


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## Kezz

i get the most pain at 90 degrees but if i go lower i dont really get much


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## SD

mikex101 said:


> Some reading for you Beklet.
> 
> http://www.t-nation.com/article/bodybuilding/leg_training_myths_exposed&cr=


Sorry, that article is as bogus as the products they are trying to sell.

THe author quotes articles, but doesn't actually list the articles, just the researcher and date, which makes his article look credible and scientific, but we only have his interpretation of the data and cannot make our own.

He uses feotal development as an arguement for squatting? Babies aren't static in the womb and there legs are under little or no stress either, they are being carried after all and not even having to stand. Anyone can lay in the foetal postion, I sleep in it personally and laying down as you are, your knee stress cannot be compared to standing with a loaded bar on your back.

He then uses anterior draw test as supportive evidence, Miss BC and others will tell you, for this test to work you also have to relax your hamstrings! As I said in my previous post its your hamstring preventing anterior draw when squatting not your ACL, that would be a disaster. So all he is saying here is, your ACL ligament is not bearing the load when your knee is parallel....FANTASTIC thats exactly what I want thanks  , my hamstrings can do that job for me but oh wait a minute you said parallel squats dont work my hams?? wrong.

Last critiscism has to be the advocacy of bringing your toes over your knees, marvelous lets just increase the sheer forces even further, take it from me, I have ruptured my ACL, whilst I didnt have one i performed all of these exercises and I know which ones were impossible, funnily enough it was ATG squats and over the toe movements of my knee, this indicates to me that my ACL would have been doing the stabilising on these movements, which if you want a knee like mine, please crack on fellas :thumb:

hth

SD


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## SD

Here is a study, I know peeps love a bit of science :thumb:

*Michael W. Krzyzewski Human Performance Laboratory, Division of Orthopaedic Surgery, Duke University Medical Center, Durham, NC 27710, USA. **[email protected]*

PURPOSE: Because a strong and stable knee is paramount to an athlete's or patient's success, an understanding of knee biomechanics while performing the squat is helpful to therapists, trainers, sports medicine physicians, researchers, coaches, and athletes who are interested in closed kinetic chain exercises, knee rehabilitation, and training for sport. The purpose of this review was to examine knee biomechanics during the dynamic squat exercise.

METHODS: Tibiofemoral shear and compressive forces, patellofemoral compressive force, knee muscle activity, and knee stability were reviewed and discussed relative to athletic performance, injury potential, and rehabilitation.

RESULTS: Low to moderate posterior shear forces, restrained primarily by the posterior cruciate ligament (PCL), were generated throughout the squat for all knee flexion angles. Low anterior shear forces, restrained primarily by the anterior cruciate ligament (ACL), were generated between 0 and 60 degrees knee flexion. *Patellofemoral compressive forces and tibiofemoral compressive and shear forces progressively increased as the knees flexed* and decreased as the knees extended, *reaching peak values near maximum knee flexion.* Hence, training the squat in the functional range between 0 and 50 degrees knee flexion may be appropriate for many knee rehabilitation patients, because knee forces were minimum in the functional range. Quadriceps, hamstrings, and gastrocnemius activity generally increased as knee flexion increased, which supports athletes with healthy knees performing the parallel squat (thighs parallel to ground at maximum knee flexion) between 0 and 100 degrees knee flexion. *Furthermore, it was demonstrated that the parallel squat was not injurious to the healthy knee*.

CONCLUSIONS: The squat was shown to be an effective exercise to employ during cruciate ligament or patellofemoral rehabilitation. For athletes with healthy knees, *performing the parallel squat is recommended over the deep squat, because injury potential to the menisci and cruciate and collateral ligaments may increase with the deep squat*. The squat does not compromise knee stability, and can enhance stability if performed correctly. Finally, the squat can be effective in developing hip, knee, and ankle musculature, because moderate to high quadriceps, hamstrings, and gastrocnemius activity were produced during the squat.

*Sports Medicine Section, Department of Orthopaedic Surgery, The David Geffen UCLA School of Medicine, Los Angeles, California 90095, USA.*

Knee injuries are common in sports activities. Understanding the mechanisms of injury allows for better treatment of these injuries and for the development of effective prevention programmes. Tibial torque and knee flexion angle have been associated with several mechanisms of injury in the knee. This article focuses on the injury to the anterior cruciate ligament (ACL), the posterior cruciate ligament (PCL) and the meniscus of the knee as they relate to knee flexion angle and tibial torque. Hyperflexion and hyperextension with the application of tibial torque have both been implicated in the mechanism of ACL injury. A combination of anterior tibial force and internal tibial torque near full extension puts the ACL at high risk for injury. Hyperflexion also increases ACL force; however, in this position, internal and external tibial torque only minimally increase ACL force. Several successful prevention programmes have been based on these biomechanical factors. Injury to the PCL typically occurs in a flexed or hyperflexed knee position. The effects of application of a tibial torque, both internally and externally, remains controversial. *Biomechanical studies have shown an increase in PCL force with knee flexion* and the application of internal tibial torque, while others have shown that PCL-deficient knees have greater external tibial rotation. The meniscus must endure greater compressive loads at higher flexion angles of the knee and, as a result, are more prone to injury in these positions. In addition, ACL deficiency puts the meniscus at greater risk for injury. Reducing the forces on the ACL, PCL and meniscus during athletic activity through training, the use of appropriate equipment and safe surfaces will help to reduce injury to these structures.

So its up to you guys, you have my personal anecdotal evidence as a person who has ruptured an ACL ,you have my account of a leading physios opinion from a Fitpro conference and you have a good study or two to back it all up, do you really want to ATG still?

SD


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## Guest

Interesting post SportDr. Good to get alternate views.

I dont know enough about anatomy to argue. I will say however i feel comfortable squatting ATG. Do you think its possible for one man to be able to go low safely and the next guy not? Is it more an individual thing than a blanket yes or no?

Edit, typed this before your last post, reading it now. lol


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## Guest

SportDr said:


> *performing the parallel squat is recommended over the deep squat, because injury potential to the menisci and cruciate and collateral ligaments may increase with the deep squat*.
> 
> SD


They dont actually state that it is though, May being the operative word. did they do tests on a deep squat?

Still reading so this might be answer in next bit.


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## TH0R

mikex101 said:


> They dont actually state that it is though, May being the operative word. did they do tests on a deep squat?
> 
> Still reading so this might be answer in next bit.


but with this info, and the doctors experiences, makes me think atg is not good, its a bit of a can of worms like most of bb, several different arguments all thinking there right:rolleyes:

Personal preference at the end of the day


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## Guest

Canny,

Im just wondering how much the increase in PCL/ACL force actually is? 2%? 20%?

Dont get me wrong, im not trying to contradict you, you obviously know more about anatomy then me.

Im just thinking out loud so to speak.

PCL force is increased with knee flexion. But PCL force will increase with increased weight will it not? so what's the difference? Squat deep with less weight or squat to P with more weight? whats worse for your knee?

Cheers for you input, last thing i want to do is train in a way where im going to injure myself.


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## SD

mikex101 said:


> Interesting post SportDr. Good to get alternate views.
> 
> I dont know enough about anatomy to argue. I will say however i feel comfortable squatting ATG. Do you think its possible for one man to be able to go low safely and the next guy not? Is it more an individual thing than a blanket yes or no?
> 
> Edit, typed this before your last post, reading it now. lol


It is a Russian Roulette thing I am afraid, you definately decrease your likelihood of injury with good form and strong supportive muscles such as the hamstrings. But your 'risk' is still increased. That risk may never become apparent and you may never develop a problem, or you may be causing cumulative damage that won't be apparent until later in life, or lastly you may just go 'pop' lol. Its weighing the risk against the gains, you can do safer exercises to work your hams & glutes so why put your knees at extra 'risk' to work them in a squat?



mikex101 said:


> They dont actually state that it is though, May being the operative word. did they do tests on a deep squat?
> 
> Still reading so this might be answer in next bit.


Yes its a review of other studies as opposed to being a study in itself. They can measure the forces in the knee but damage being cumulative its very hard to prove a future knee injury resulted from one activity. The study would have to be very long and there just isnt the interest or funding for it hence the 'may'. I think that would be a 'may' with a closed caption being 'but more likely than if you didnt ATG'.

Weigh it up, if you have strong supportive muscles and great form, and you dont mind the extra risk be it 5% or 95% then go for it! If like me you would rather reduce the risk with alternative safer exercises then go parallel and add in other exercises for hams & glutes. What is obvious is that, ATG squats do not appear to be immediately injuring anyone, so as the extra risk hasn't been quantified b the studies, I would suggest that it was pretty low, not low enough for me personally however, a knee injury really REALLY sucks!

hth

SD


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## Guest

Cheers Sportdr.


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## SD

mikex101 said:


> Canny,
> 
> Im just wondering how much the increase in PCL/ACL force actually is? 2%? 20%?
> 
> Dont get me wrong, im not trying to contradict you, you obviously know more about anatomy then me.
> 
> Im just thinking out loud so to speak.
> 
> PCL force is increased with knee flexion. But PCL force will increase with increased weight will it not? so what's the difference? Squat deep with less weight or squat to P with more weight? whats worse for your knee?
> 
> Cheers for you input, last thing i want to do is train in a way where im going to injure myself.


Yes I would like to know the precentages too and lord knows I have tried to find them, in the conference I went to, the Physio guy had this great chart showing the force percentage at varying knee angles, it was quite an eye opener! Force at the knee is measured in body weights (bw) I rememeber it being a mulitple of oyur body weight plus the weight of the bar and plates.

Good point on the PCL, with a parallel you increase the weight so potentially increase the load which may negate any benefit for decreasing the angle, I think that what yu are saying?  Fair comment I think, but the weight you are carrying transmits to sheer force in a linear fashion with the knee angle, one increases so does the other. I think I remember the increase of knee angle increasing sheering force much beyond that which you would experience with simply increasing weight. In a parallel squat your supportive muscles also are at an advantage to stabilise the knee, hence partly why you can lift more.

Nice discussion, tanks fella :thumb:


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## Guest

SportDr said:


> .
> 
> Good point on the PCL, with a parallel you increase the weight so potentially increase the load which may negate any benefit for decreasing the angle, I think that what yu are saying?  Fair comment I think, but the weight you are carrying transmits to sheer force in a linear fashion with the knee angle, one increases so does the other. I think I remember the increase of knee angle increasing sheering force much beyond that which you would experience with simply increasing weight. In a parallel squat your supportive muscles also are at an advantage to stabilise the knee, hence partly why you can lift more.
> 
> Nice discussion, tanks fella :thumb:


Yeah, thats what i was getting at.

Nice answer, cheers again.


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## ba baracuss

I think as has been said by some - it's an individual thing. I would think that shorter people are better suited to squatting in general due to the leverage issues - taller people have more leverage in a biomechanical sense, but the forces being exerted are through the joints, which obviously isn't good.

I think Tall makes a good point regarding BB and PL squatting too - squats are a quad builder to me.

I go lower on leg press which works hams more and I also do leg curls and deads which works hams.


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## Apollo

Beklet said:


> Not sure if it's a flexibility issue or whether I'm actually deformed in some way :laugh:
> 
> I seem to be able to do squats OK, generally but I'd like to be able to go much deeper, but having tried to demonstrate my 'technique' earlier, I noticed the following;
> 
> I go down till my hams touch my calves but even then the top of my thighs are barely parallel :confused1: (I have very very short legs, or maybe it's because I'm a fat bastard?)
> 
> If I try to go lower, my feet either tend to buckle in a bit to keep them flat or my heels raise up (tight calves? I do have very tight quads I have difficulty reaching my foot to stretch them :blush: )
> 
> I usually sit the bar quite low on my traps, what there is of them  , if that makes a difference.
> 
> Are there any stretches or anything I can do to improve this?


Here is a link to a site which has some good advice on squatting.

http://www.stumptuous.com/cms/displayarticle.php?aid=52


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## Tall

If someone can dig out the following study (full study) it should show some numbers in reference to force at a given angle.

Patellofemoral joint kinetics during squatting in collegiate athletes

I can get it, but it won't be until the middle of next week.


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## Guest

Tall said:


> If someone can dig out the following study (full study) it should show some numbers in reference to force at a given angle.
> 
> Patellofemoral joint kinetics during squatting in collegiate athletes
> 
> I can get it, but it won't be until the middle of next week.


Heres a link to an abstract

http://www.clinbiomech.com/article/PIIS0268003301000171/abstract

And here's a quote

"The results of this study *do not support* the premise that squatting to 110° places greater stress on the patellofemoral joint than squatting to 70°. These findings may have implications with respect to the safe design of athletic training regimens and rehabilitation programs."

This was based on women, so not sure if its as relevant to blokes (however it is to Beklet)

Im confussed! lol

That said, i was squatting higher than normal yesterday (just under parallel) and dont feel that it hampered my workout in any way. Infact, i noticed less lower back involvement and releaved some lower back rounding which ive been trying to iron out on ATG squats.

Im sticking to not ATG but lower than P


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## Tall

mikex101 said:


> Heres a link to an abstract
> 
> http://www.clinbiomech.com/article/PIIS0268003301000171/abstract
> 
> And here's a quote
> 
> "The results of this study *do not support* the premise that squatting to 110° places greater stress on the patellofemoral joint than squatting to 70°. These findings may have implications with respect to the safe design of athletic training regimens and rehabilitation programs."
> 
> This was based on women, so not sure if its as relevant to blokes (however it is to Beklet)
> 
> Im confussed! lol
> 
> That said, i was squatting higher than normal yesterday (just under parallel) and dont feel that it hampered my workout in any way. Infact, i noticed less lower back involvement and releaved some lower back rounding which ive been trying to iron out on ATG squats.
> 
> *Im sticking to not ATG but lower than P*


Between ATG and // = Deep Squats


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## 3.lions

I was going to start a new thread on this, but as I've found this one and its pretty much on the same subject I'll just post it here,

Does anyone know why ATG squats might cause lower back problems?

I always used to squat just under 90 degrees (probably 85 or so) as I was always told that going lower than parallel is bad for the knee etc.

To cut (a very!) long story short I decided to start going ATG after some critisism from another gym member.

I would normally start squatting at 120kg and work my way to 5 reps of 140kg, once I decided to go ATG I went down to 5 sets of 12 x 90kg in an attempt to ensure my technique was spot on. I've found that I no longer feel any burn in my legs, but instead a massive amount of strain in the lower back, similar to what you'd expect after heavy deadlifts. So basically my back gives way before my legs, which kind of defeats the point of doing squats! Also, as a result, my usual deadlift of 5 x 150kg has been reduced to 6 x 100kg as my lower back is so fu*ked from the squats!!

I'm quite confused as to why this happens, I'm sure my back isn't rounding on the ATG squats, the only theory I have for it is that I am 6ft tall and have relativley short legs in comparison to my body which may be why my back is taking so much of the strain? Or maybe its simply because my body has gotten used to my style of squats over the past 9 years, and is somehow struggling to adapt to squatting differently?

Either way I'm going back to my normal style of squatting, I don't care if people say I'm cheating! ATG just dont work for me! Might just go for my usual style of squat followed by a deep presses on the leg press instead.


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## SOUTHMAN

can u film your technique?

I feel atg squats in my glutes, hams, quads, abs and lower back. this is the reason why i do squats ATG


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## SOUTHMAN

can u film your technique?

I feel atg squats in my glutes, hams, quads, abs and lower back. this is the reason why i do squats ATG


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## 3.lions

I'm training legs tonight, don't currently have a training partner but if I see someone I know up there I'll ask them to film it on my phone


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