# 10lbs lost on cut feeling tiny!



## nattyash (Nov 17, 2014)

Training natty, 10lbs lost on cut so far and god I feel so small! Not.sure how long i can carry it on but I really wanna get lean and start again. Just been reading.for every 10lbs of weight you lose you will lose an inch off ure arms ????????????. I know muscle memory works if you have been out of the gym but does it work when you have been on a cut. Feels like im ****ing away all my gains ????


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## WilsonR6 (Feb 14, 2012)

How big is your deficit?


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## Pictor (Jan 10, 2011)

The problem is in the first two words of your opening post mate


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## SkinnyJ (Apr 21, 2012)

Big Ste said:


> The problem is in the first two words of your opening post mate


exactly.


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## Smitch (Dec 29, 2008)

And if you only weighed 180lbs and lost 10 then you would be tiny. 

It's all relative.


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## nattyash (Nov 17, 2014)

Weighed 205, now 195. Deficit is 500 cals 1.5 lb a week lost so far. It's going how I planned just not in my mind lol. Wasn't prepared for the mental side of it! Spent two years getting this little bit of size.


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## BLUE(UK) (Jan 9, 2008)

It'll come back quickly but probably in the same ratio as you had prior to cutting unless you try lean gains.....but then you might not gain anything.


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## nWo (Mar 25, 2014)

Big Ste said:


> The problem is in the first two words of your opening post mate


This! I've lost 12lbs in the last couple of weeks and I'm still looking as big as I was a couple of weeks ago. Probably helped by the fact that a slight bit of carving out around my delts and lower chest has occured, making them appear a bit more prominent.


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## nattyash (Nov 17, 2014)

Not gonna take the step of steroids for a good few years. I wanna see how far I can get natty and keep my hair lol


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## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

nattyash said:


> Not gonna take the step of steroids for a good few years. I wanna see how far I can get natty and keep my hair lol


Not very lol


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## UkWardy (Mar 30, 2014)

Lol most forums discourage people from taking steroids before they're ready, UkM response "Test Tren Mast T3 Clen"

Do it.


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## nattyash (Nov 17, 2014)

Its not a race to get big for me, never has been. Gym is something I enjoy and the aesthetics are a nice benefit.


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## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

nattyash said:


> Not gonna take the step of steroids for a good few years. I wanna see how far I can get natty and keep my hair lol


Bet you don't last a good few years lol.


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## BLUE(UK) (Jan 9, 2008)

FelonE said:


> Bet you don't last a good few years lol.


I must've been mad, I've been training 24yrs natty....i'm kn4ckered now though.


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## nattyash (Nov 17, 2014)

Already lasted 2... As mentioned don't wanna risk hair loss, risk gyno or suppress my natural test production. Gained well over last two years, 20kg, some fat granted but some decent lean mass aswell


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## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

BLUE(UK) said:


> I must've been mad, I've been training 24yrs natty....i'm kn4ckered now though.


I did 2yrs which was ok until I cut and shrunk and got a lot weaker. This cut I've just finished was so different. Didn't feel like I was wasting away and was setting pbs well in to it. Being natty is a lot of work for minimal gains ime.


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## BLUE(UK) (Jan 9, 2008)

nattyash said:


> Already lasted 2... As mentioned don't wanna risk hair loss, risk gyno or suppress my natural test production. Gained well over last two years, 20kg, some fat granted but some decent lean mass aswell


But you've lost almost a quarter of that already...


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## BLUE(UK) (Jan 9, 2008)

FelonE said:


> I did 2yrs which was ok until I cut and shrunk and got a lot weaker. This cut I've just finished was so different. Didn't feel like I was wasting away and was setting pbs well in to it. Being natty is a lot of work for minimal gains ime.


I have to admit that the weakness makes me cave in when cutting.


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## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

BLUE(UK) said:


> I have to admit that the weakness makes me cave in when cutting.


It's horrible. Felt like I'd just lost everything I'd worked hard for to gain.


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## nattyash (Nov 17, 2014)

I know that feeling all to well! Fair point I have lost a quarter of it in a matter of weeks! 10 more is my goal then go again bulking.


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## BLUE(UK) (Jan 9, 2008)

FelonE said:


> It's horrible. Felt like I'd just lost everything I'd worked hard for to gain.


Going from 25 wide grip pull ups to 12 was demoralising....i was soon back to eating chocolate and ice cream!


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## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

nattyash said:


> I know that feeling all to well! Fair point I have lost a quarter of it in a matter of weeks! 10 more is my goal then go again bulking.


It feels like you're going round in circles. You put some fat on when you bulk and lose some muscle when you cut. You can't win.


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## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

BLUE(UK) said:


> Going from 25 wide grip pull ups to 12 was demoralising....i was soon back to eating chocolate and ice cream!


Well after my 3 months off I looked a mess and was weak as fvck. Jumped on test my first day back and now 15 weeks later I'm stronger and look a lot better. You can see the attraction lol.


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## nattyash (Nov 17, 2014)

Is this your first course felone, I see the attraction all the time, loads of pals are on and make ridiculous gains i could only make in a year on a single course


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## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

nattyash said:


> Is this your first course felone, I see the attraction all the time, loads of pals are on and make ridiculous gains i could only make in a year on a single course


I did a 6 week unfinished cycle before of M1T/test. Put on around 20lbs and 20kg on my bench.


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## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

It frustrated me cos I put the work in with diet and training but progress was very very slow.


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## Trevor McDonald (Mar 30, 2010)

Sad that the only help that people can give the OP is to use steroids, and push him to do so.


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## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

Trevor McDonald said:


> Sad that the only help that people can give the OP is to use steroids, and push him to do so.


No one is pushing anyone to do anything. Just giving my experience of natty vs enhanced.


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## nattyash (Nov 17, 2014)

I like the challenge. All the lada I mentioned are lazy aswell. They don't look good year round. They will blast, stop lose interest until it's time.for the next course and repeat. Whereas I work my balls off session after session and knowing took steroids it's a dangerous game. I wouldn't want to do more than two courses a year and would possibly lose that motivation when I've had the magic "roids" why would I want to train natty working my ****.off.and it will start a vicious cycle, I think it's inevitable I will dabble eventually. Hopefully not for a long while yet.


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## SkinnyJ (Apr 21, 2012)

nattyash said:


> Not gonna take the step of steroids for a good few years. I wanna see how far I can get natty and keep my hair lol


waste of time. Did you not see the study hacksii posted?

People gained more muscle mass not training and taking test than those training natty.


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## Mclovin147 (Nov 11, 2013)

SkinnyJ said:


> waste of time. Did you not see the study hacksii posted?
> 
> People gained more muscle mass not training and taking test than those training natty.


Your telling me I can take test, sit at home all day and be bigger than if I hit the gym natty?

1. I call bull****

2. If this is true, Steroids users no longer have the argument "I have to work just as hard" as this study suggests, that in actual fact, steroid users don't have to do a damn thing in order to gain. It's all done for them.

Which is true...?


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## Lewy_h (Jan 4, 2012)

Mclovin147 said:


> Your telling me I can take test, sit at home all day and be bigger than if I hit the gym natty?
> 
> 1. I call bull****
> 
> ...


I just inject and do abs crunches in the house


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## SkinnyJ (Apr 21, 2012)

Mclovin147 said:


> Your telling me I can take test, sit at home all day and be bigger than if I hit the gym natty?
> 
> 1. I call bull****
> 
> ...


*you're.

Call bull**** all you like. I dont give a ****.


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## Mclovin147 (Nov 11, 2013)

SkinnyJ said:


> *you're.
> 
> Call bull**** all you like. I dont give a ****.


Avoid the answer wasn't an option, literally one of them has to be correct? Which one fella?

You had my attention, now you have my curiosity


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## SkinnyJ (Apr 21, 2012)

Mclovin147 said:


> Avoid the answer wasn't an option, literally one of them has to be correct? Which one fella?
> 
> You had my attention, now you have my curiosity


Do you not understand the "i dont give a ****" ? Fella.


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## Mclovin147 (Nov 11, 2013)

SkinnyJ said:


> Do you not understand the "i dont give a ****" ? Fella.


Alright son, put your tampon back in.

You made a very bold statement claiming a non-lifting AAS user will gain more than a lifting natty, I only asked a question.

OP, proof that a lot of these AAS users that tell you it's not worthwhile training natty don't know what the hell they are on about. There's quite a few natty guys on here that are in real good shape! Keep cracking on.


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## SkinnyJ (Apr 21, 2012)

Mclovin147 said:


> Alright son, put your tampon back in.
> 
> You made a very bold statement claiming a non-lifting AAS user will gain more than a lifting natty, I only asked a question.
> 
> OP, proof that a lot of these AAS users that tell you it's not worthwhile training natty don't know what the hell they are on about. There's quite a few natty guys on here that are in real good shape! Keep cracking on.


Listen Kid, the study is on this forum somewhere. Feel free to search for it and then cry**** when you see i was right.


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## Mclovin147 (Nov 11, 2013)

SkinnyJ said:


> Listen Kid, the study is on this forum somewhere. Feel free to search for it and then cry**** when you see *i was right*.


Ok, so you agree with the study.

Out of the two types of AAS users on UKM;

1. That claims AAS is not a magic injection, and that you must work hard, just as you have to natty, in order to gain.

2. That claims AAS is a magic injection, and that you can never step foot in a gym, and gain more than a natty busting his ass in the gym.

Out of those, your a #2 Correct?

I bet your one of these guys who spent 12 months natty before turning to gear, at around 10st-11st? Am I right?

Eitherway, point im making is AAS is not a requirement to look good, and is certainly not the only way to add size, it can be done naturally very effectively. OP, there are a lot of natty bashers on here, there are also a lot of AAS users who look natty...

Prime examples of average natty men who have decent physiques/strength while being natty are international Rugby players. A lot of the guys are units, 15st-20st natty, tested multiple times throughout the year for AAS and have been for many years.

Some of these guys are beasts!


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## SkinnyJ (Apr 21, 2012)

Mclovin147 said:


> Ok, so you agree with the study.
> 
> Out of the two types of AAS users on UKM;
> 
> ...


Lol i did not even read.


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## Mclovin147 (Nov 11, 2013)

SkinnyJ said:


> Lol i did not even read.


Essentially it said "Skinny J is a clueless Twàt spreading BS"


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## SkinnyJ (Apr 21, 2012)

Mclovin147 said:


> Essentially it said "Skinny J is a clueless Twàt spreading BS"


Oh look, y u so mad?

Take it up with Hacksii - he posted to study lolol i dont even care m8.


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## Mclovin147 (Nov 11, 2013)

SkinnyJ said:


> Oh look, y u so mad?
> 
> Take it up with Hacksii - he posted to study lolol i dont even care m8.


Would if I could, on iPhone...Navigating the forums is a nightmare!

Swear I did skim over it when it first popped up.

I'm mad cuz I'm skinny & white, I'mma jab test, chill on the sofa and get huge now. Brb. YOLO.


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## mig8888 (Jul 27, 2010)

Mclovin147 said:


> Ok, so you agree with the study.
> 
> Out of the two types of AAS users on UKM;
> 
> ...


LOL international rugby players are about as natural as sunny delight !!


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## SkinnyJ (Apr 21, 2012)

Mclovin147 said:


> Would if I could, on iPhone...Navigating the forums is a nightmare!
> 
> Swear I did skim over it when it first popped up.
> 
> I'm mad cuz I'm skinny & white, I'mma jab test, chill on the sofa and get huge now. Brb. YOLO.


You need to chill, bro.

Check out the study when you can, if you dont like it go rage at someone else.

Btw im also natty.


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## Mclovin147 (Nov 11, 2013)

mig8888 said:


> LOL international rugby players are about as natural as sunny delight !!


Drug tests....Multiple times a year...Months/Years long bans...Official...Ahhh I can't be bothered lol


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## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

Mclovin147 said:


> Ok, so you agree with the study.
> 
> Out of the two types of AAS users on UKM;
> 
> ...


and they're fat. Bet they wouldn't be that size lean.


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## Mclovin147 (Nov 11, 2013)

FelonE said:


> and they're fat. Bet they wouldn't be that size lean.


George North is a 240Lb winger lol and he ain't fat.

Edit: He is 6'4 though.


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## mig8888 (Jul 27, 2010)

Mclovin147 said:


> Drug tests....Multiple times a year...Months/Years long bans...Official...Ahhh I can't be bothered lol


How many times was Lance Armstrong drug tested ??? I have trained with somebody who has won bronze at the commonwealth games. he competed for many years without being caught. Drug tests do not stop top level sports men or women taking performance enhancing drugs, anyone that thinks otherwise is deluded.


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## jackedjackass (Nov 16, 2014)

nattyash said:


> Training natty, 10lbs lost on cut so far and god I feel so small! Not.sure how long i can carry it on but I really wanna get lean and start again. Just been reading.for every 10lbs of weight you lose you will lose an inch off ure arms ????????????. I know muscle memory works if you have been out of the gym but does it work when you have been on a cut. Feels like im ****ing away all my gains ????


Your gains sound like it's all been fat.

You have not even yet started and already feel thin, most of the 10lbs will be water you have lost.

You feel tiny because of that is how dieting feels sometimes, and because you are tiny.

A serious trainer will know what they look like when lean and just get there without seconds thought lie "oh i will lose an inch off my arms"

What is wrong with losing an inch on the arms if it's mom-arms?


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

nattyash said:


> Just been reading.for every 10lbs of weight you lose you will lose an inch off ure arms ????????????.


That's an idiotic statement. I'd encourage you to stop reading whatever it was that said this.



> Feels like im ****ing away all my gains ????


How fast are you dropping weight? Something like ~1lb per week is usually considered about right for a natty, with faster weight loss increasing muscle loss.

This forum is very pro-gear, but stick to being natty if you want to!

It's hard to know from the little info you've given, but the following two articles may be of some use/interest to you:

The Ultimate Cutting Diet - Devised By Pro Natural Bodybuilder Layne Norton | SimplyShredded.com

T Nation | The Truth About Bulking


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## jackedjackass (Nov 16, 2014)

nattyash said:


> Weighed 205, now 195. Deficit is 500 cals 1.5 lb a week lost so far. It's going how I planned just not in my mind lol. Wasn't prepared for the mental side of it! Spent two years getting this little bit of size.


How fat or lean are you, and how tall.

"I am 205", so was Shawn Ray.


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## jackedjackass (Nov 16, 2014)

nattyash said:


> I wanna see how far I can get natty


You think you are a unique individual?

Ask around how far natty trainers go, then you will know.

They all look roughly the same size when lean.

If you have a good structure, you will look ok natty.


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## jackedjackass (Nov 16, 2014)

FelonE said:


> Bet you don't last a good few years lol.


Agreed, the newcomers are so bravely naive when they start lol.

But rather sooner than later, it dawns on them that going to the gym for no progress, slight diet errors having negative impacts and o forth, is pointless.

And if someone comes along who does gear and keep their diet tidy and blows up in what seems like no time, if that is seen often enough by a natty, they will become quitters.


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## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

jackedjackass said:


> Agreed, the newcomers are so bravely naive when they start lol.
> 
> But rather sooner than later, it dawns on them that going to the gym for no progress, slight diet errors having negative impacts and o forth, is pointless.
> 
> And if someone comes along who does gear and keep their diet tidy and blows up in what seems like no time, if that is seen often enough by a natty, they will become quitters.


Yep. I was one of them people that said I'd stay natty,until I saw how much progress could be achieved with a little boost.

Think it's funny when you see natties asking which test booster is best...........test obviously.


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## nattyash (Nov 17, 2014)

Mclovin147 said:


> Alright son, put your tampon back in.
> 
> You made a very bold statement claiming a non-lifting AAS user will gain more than a lifting natty, I only asked a question.
> 
> OP, proof that a lot of these AAS users that tell you it's not worthwhile training natty don't know what the hell they are on about. There's quite a few natty guys on here that are in real good shape! Keep cracking on.


I will do pal, cheers, someone not championing roids. Stupid really


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## Mclovin147 (Nov 11, 2013)

mig8888 said:


> How many times was Lance Armstrong drug tested ??? I have trained with somebody who has won bronze at the commonwealth games. he competed for many years without being caught. Drug tests do not stop top level sports men or women taking performance enhancing drugs, anyone that thinks otherwise is deluded.


I see your point, but Lance Armstrong was a very wealthy man, and just that, one man. He used private blood transfusions before tests or something didn't he?

I can't see 30+ men hiding regular blood transfusions right before drug tests year round. It's just not viable, you'd have heard something by now. These agencies aren't dull, and especially after the Armstrong incident they are very clued up.

The cons outweigh the gains (Literally lol) as players have been banned for years before for AAS use, I can't see top flight players risking whole careers for it.

I rember when New Zealand were caught up in a banned substance scandal, not even steroids, but whatever substance it is was is prohibited in the North, but allowed in the South, happened a few years back.

I know everyone likes to jump on the AAS wagon and accuse every one of juicing, but I personally don't believe International Rugby players are juicing. Why would they? Everything they achieve can be achieved naturally, they rely on skill/teamwork - something AAS can not provide. Where as Armstrong relied on Endurance, something AAS can provide.


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## Verno (Apr 18, 2008)

nattyash said:


> Its not a race to get big for me, never has been. Gym is something I enjoy and the aesthetics are a nice benefit.


Then what was your initial post about? You don't think that's a little hypocritical?


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## The-Real-Deal (Dec 5, 2014)

There is a lot of what I call recreational ASS users on this site who swear by the drugs they are abusing. The natty contingent just get "you cant do this" or "you cant gain this size" etc "because your a natty". I say Bull-****,e to these lot.

There is a natural limit you will hit eventually if you train long and hard enough. This limit way surpasses any of the recreational users physics Ive seen, most of them are (NOT ALL I might add) are fcuking clueless when it comes to training.....They rely on the magic potions they use

All you will get from this lot is either its all fat or water as they are talking in competition terms/levels 7 - sub 7% and not within the normal levels for an adult person to strengthen their argument!

If you want to stay natty then good for you, test yourself and see what you can become without drugs. If further down the line you want to enhance/use Ass then do your research, go for it! At the end of the day we all have different goals, different tolerances,different responses to stimulus. What works for some might not work for others...... The choice is yours. don't be put off from the natural road it can be a rewarding one :wink: .


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## The-Real-Deal (Dec 5, 2014)

Merkleman said:


> This 10 week study took a group of 43 men of normal body weight between the ages of 19 and 40 who all had some degree of weight training experience. These men were then split up into 4 different groups:
> 
> Group 1 did NOT do any form of exercise, and did NOT receive any form of steroids or drugs. (Natural guys doing no weight training.)
> 
> ...


Do you take ASS?


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## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

Merkleman said:


> This 10 week study took a group of 43 men of normal body weight between the ages of 19 and 40 who all had some degree of weight training experience. These men were then split up into 4 different groups:
> 
> Group 1 did NOT do any form of exercise, and did NOT receive any form of steroids or drugs. (Natural guys doing no weight training.)
> 
> ...


Nuff said.


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## The-Real-Deal (Dec 5, 2014)

FelonE said:


> Nuff said.


Bolox

Do you fancy doing an experiment....I will train as normal and you do nothing but juice for your next cycle lets see where we stand in 3 months


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## SkinnyJ (Apr 21, 2012)

Merkleman said:


> This 10 week study took a group of 43 men of normal body weight between the ages of 19 and 40 who all had some degree of weight training experience. These men were then split up into 4 different groups:
> 
> Group 1 did NOT do any form of exercise, and did NOT receive any form of steroids or drugs. (Natural guys doing no weight training.)
> 
> ...


**** - Dont let @Mclovin147 see this. He'll be up cry ****ing all night that he was wrong.


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## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

> Bolox
> 
> Do you fancy doing an experiment....I will train as normal and you do nothing but juice for your next cycle lets see where we stand in 3 months


So the study is wrong and you're right?


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## The-Real-Deal (Dec 5, 2014)

FelonE said:


> So the study is wrong and you're right?


I never said this now did I.... But.... It would/could prove it either way. The study is just words on a forum or a bit of paper that anyone could have put together to promote the use of ASS. Who knows whats true or false when £££££££££££ is involved.... Lets face it its a cracking sales pitch.. :wink:


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## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

> I never said this now did I.... But.... It would/could prove it either way. The study is just words on a forum or a bit of paper that anyone could have put together to promote the use of ASS. Who knows whats true or false when £££££££££££ is involved.... Lets face it its a cracking sales pitch.. :wink:


Yeah you did,you said b0llox.

So you want me to stop doing what I love for 3 months to prove a point to some random person on the net?

Seems legit


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## Mclovin147 (Nov 11, 2013)

> I never said this now did I.... But.... It would/could prove it either way. The study is just words on a forum or a bit of paper that anyone could have put together to promote the use of ASS. Who knows whats true or false when £££££££££££ is involved.... *Lets face it its a cracking sales pitch*.. :wink:


Exactly

I mean, apparently, I'm wasting my time going to the gym. I can just inject Test and gain more than I would training naturally anyway.

So why doesn't every Guy just blow off the gym completely, all you have to do is take a couple of injections each week and bam! Your hench!


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## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

Mclovin147 said:


> Exactly
> 
> I mean, apparently, I'm wasting my time going to the gym. I can just inject Test and gain more than I would training naturally anyway.
> 
> So why doesn't every Guy just blow off the gym completely, all you have to do is take a couple of injections each week and bam! Your hench!


Because most us love training


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## The-Real-Deal (Dec 5, 2014)

FelonE said:


> Yeah you did,you said b0llox.
> 
> So you want me to stop doing what I love for 3 months to prove a point to some random person on the net?
> 
> Seems legit


I said bolix to the study, I don't believe it.... I didn't say it was right or wrong!

To answer your question NO I don't really expect you to do this, I know I wouldn't if I was you ... lol Carry on with ya training, its going well


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## SkinnyJ (Apr 21, 2012)

Mclovin147 said:


> Exactly
> 
> I mean, apparently, I'm wasting my time going to the gym. I can just inject Test and gain more than I would training naturally anyway.
> 
> So why doesn't every Guy just blow off the gym completely, all you have to do is take a couple of injections each week and bam! Your hench!


Fucck me, you're slow.

*"Group 4 (exercise, drug use) was able to build about 13 pounds of muscle.*

*was able to build about 13 pounds of muscle.*

*build about 13 pounds of muscle*

*13 pounds of muscle*

Does that make it clear for you?

Guise y do u go gym den. Well f**got because you gain double the mass.

Logic do you even?

Mclovin Do you even braincell


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## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

> I said bolix to the study, I don't believe it.... I didn't say it was right or wrong!
> 
> To answer your question NO I don't really expect you to do this, I know I wouldn't if I was you ... lol Carry on with ya training, its going well


Thanks


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## Mclovin147 (Nov 11, 2013)

SkinnyJ said:


> Fucck me, you're slow.
> 
> *"Group 4 (exercise, drug use) was able to build about 13 pounds of muscle.*
> 
> ...


But why bother???

Just don't go to the gym full stop. Sure you'll lose a few Lbs in gains, but you'll still be gaining above the natural range of someone who is training apparently.

This way you have more free time to get your ass serviced at any gay bar of your choice.


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## SkinnyJ (Apr 21, 2012)

Mclovin147 said:


> But why bother???
> 
> Just don't go to the gym full stop. Sure you'll lose a few Lbs in gains, but you'll still be gaining above the natural range of someone who is training apparently.
> 
> This way you have more free time to get your ass serviced at any gay bar of your choice.


a few lbs? Or half the amount of muscle. Come on, man up. Just admit you were wrong.

ITT - Mclovin rages/looks stupid/cry ****s


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## The-Real-Deal (Dec 5, 2014)

Merkleman said:


> Yeah I do. I'll post progress pics in 3 months when I'm over a stone heavier with the same bodyfat lol.


Are you not intrigued what you can achieve without the use of drugs? How old are you. How long have you been training ?... If your jumping straight in to ass you might encounter one or two problems.


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## Mclovin147 (Nov 11, 2013)

Merkleman said:


> I actually don't think it's bollox. I put on 8 kilos of lean mass training in my bedroom on 600mg Test/ Week for 12 weeks. I NEVER trained until failure and my training was píss poor, literally throwing the weights up without any purpose of working the muscle properly. I can't imagine what gains I would've made if I were training properly in a proper gym.. But it would've been a lot more.


Merks! How is progress mate?

Haven't caught up in a long while?


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## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

SkinnyJ said:


> Fucck me, you're slow.
> 
> *"Group 4 (exercise, drug use) was able to build about 13 pounds of muscle.*
> 
> ...


For a Zyzz bum boy you'd think he'd be blast and cruising by now.

Was Zyzz natty? Me thinks not.


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## The-Real-Deal (Dec 5, 2014)

Merkleman said:


> I actually don't think it's bollox. I put on 8 kilos of lean mass training in my bedroom on 600mg Test/ Week for 12 weeks. I NEVER trained until failure and my training was píss poor, literally throwing the weights up without any purpose of working the muscle properly. I can't imagine what gains I would've made if I were training properly in a proper gym.. But it would've been a lot more.


Is that you in your avatar?


----------



## Mclovin147 (Nov 11, 2013)

SkinnyJ said:


> a few lbs? Or half the amount of muscle. Come on, man up. Just admit you were wrong.
> 
> ITT - Mclovin rages/looks stupid/cry ****s


Il admit I'm wrong when im shown evidence, and not just a copy and paste.

Skinny J - Needs downlighting to look small.


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## SkinnyJ (Apr 21, 2012)

FelonE said:


> For a Zyzz bum boy you'd think he'd be blast and cruising by now.
> 
> Was Zyzz natty? Me thinks not.


You're still natty if its under a gram.


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## SkinnyJ (Apr 21, 2012)

Mclovin147 said:


> Il admit I'm wrong when im shown evidence, and not just a copy and paste.
> 
> Skinny J - Needs downlighting to look small.


But who was knowledge on what skinnyj looks like?

Also funny how you try and attack my physique because you feel stupid. Yet not once have i had a dig at yours.

Dont put peoples physiques down bro.


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## Mclovin147 (Nov 11, 2013)

FelonE said:


> For a Zyzz bum boy you'd think he'd be blast and cruising by now.
> 
> Was Zyzz natty? Me thinks not.


Zyzz bum boy? Merkleman is our resident Zyzz fan.


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## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

Mclovin147 said:


> Zyzz bum boy? Merkleman is our resident Zyzz fan.


Merks is on the fun train lol. You're slating people that use aas,yet Zyzz who you're always saying is great etc used aas.


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## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

SkinnyJ said:


> You're still natty if its under a gram.


Lol.


----------



## The-Real-Deal (Dec 5, 2014)

FelonE said:


> Merks is on the fun train lol. You're slating people that use aas,yet Zyzz who you're always saying is great etc used aas.


Whats all this talk of sleep...Zzzz and why Put a Y in the middle.... can't smell ooops spell ?? (remember I'm getting old) :confused1:


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## Mclovin147 (Nov 11, 2013)

FelonE said:


> Merks is on the fun train lol. You're slating people that use aas,yet Zyzz who you're always saying is great etc used aas.


Iv never once slated someone who uses AAS...Skinny J is natty thank you very much.


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## Verno (Apr 18, 2008)

Mclovin147 said:


> Il admit I'm wrong *when im shown evidence*, and not just a copy and paste.
> 
> Skinny J - Needs downlighting to look small.


How about pubescent boys then?


----------



## Mclovin147 (Nov 11, 2013)

SkinnyJ said:


> But who was knowledge on what skinnyj looks like?
> 
> Also funny how you try and attack my physique because you feel stupid. Yet not once have i had a dig at yours.
> 
> Dont put peoples physiques down bro.


You said I looked stupid, seeing as you can't 'Look stupid' through text, I assumed you'd unfairly insulted the back of my head.

I don't feel stupid mate, I'm actually having a great laugh at this convo!

I said at the start, if that study was done by a reputable source and is true, FairPlay, it will change my perspective on AAS.


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## Mclovin147 (Nov 11, 2013)

Verno said:


> How about pubescent boys then?


This isn't Google mate, try again.


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## Verno (Apr 18, 2008)

Mclovin147 said:


> This isn't Google mate, try again.


You want it spelling out?

Pubescent boys majority of them do fcuk all but undergo a huge bodily transformation over the years of puberty. Why is that do you think??


----------



## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

Mclovin147 said:


> You said I looked stupid, seeing as you can't 'Look stupid' through text, I assumed you'd unfairly insulted the back of my head.
> 
> I don't feel stupid mate, I'm actually having a great laugh at this convo!
> 
> I said at the start, if that study was done by a reputable source and is true, FairPlay, it will change my perspective on AAS.


If you ever decide to try them you'll see yourself.


----------



## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

> Whats all this talk of sleep...Zzzz and why Put a Y in the middle.... can't smell ooops spell ?? (remember I'm getting old) :confused1:


Dunno but I'm tired and gotta wait for Tesco delivery lol, they can p1ss off if they think I'm helping bring it up the stairs.


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## Mclovin147 (Nov 11, 2013)

Verno said:


> You want it spelling out?
> 
> Pubescent boys majority of them do fcuk all but undergo a huge bodily transformation over the years of puberty. Why is that do you think??


I didn't realise these boys put 10lbs of muscle on every 10 weeks????? (That's because they don't, Incase you were wondering)

As you said, it takes years!!!!!

And there are many other chemicals playing their part, it's not even comparable.


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## Verno (Apr 18, 2008)

Mclovin147 said:


> I didn't realise these boys put 10lbs of muscle on every 10 weeks????? (That's because they don't, Incase you were wondering)
> 
> As you said, it takes years!!!!!
> 
> And there are many other chemicals playing their part, it's not even comparable.


Of course it's comparable, over the course of puberty most put on a huge amount of muscle due in part to a large injection of natural test yet they do nothing apart from t*ss themselves off.

Hence the reason why someone who's juicing but not training can probably put on more muscle than a natty training.

Btw I never said anything about 7 weeks.


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## nWo (Mar 25, 2014)

Ooh ooh, another natty supremacist getting gang-banged by gear users.


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## Mclovin147 (Nov 11, 2013)

Verno said:


> Of course it's comparable, over the course of puberty most put on a huge amount of muscle due in part to a large injection of natural test yet they do nothing apart from t*ss themselves off.
> 
> Hence the reason why someone who's juicing but not training can probably put on more muscle than a natty training.
> 
> Btw I never said anything about 7 weeks.


How do you know they do nothing?

Most teenage boys play a whole variety of sport for one thing.

Secondly, this 'Study says' a man can gain 10lbs of muscle over 10 weeks without lifting a weight on test, your comparing this to puberty? How? I didn't just put 10lb of muscle on in 10 weeks during puberty.

Sure, over 2-3-4 years or whatever yeah about that (taking into consideration other weight gaining afflictions I.e bone length/density increasing etc)

I see your point, but I don't think its really comparable, that's all mate.

Anyway, I'm done here lol


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## Verno (Apr 18, 2008)

Mclovin147 said:


> How do you know they do nothing?
> 
> *Most teenage boys play a whole variety of sport for one thing.*
> 
> ...


Maybe a bit of footie rugby but weights?

I thought the issue here was about natty training vs juice and not training?

In that case I think the proof is there. A pubescent boy who does little or no weights will put on more muscle over ANY given time period than the equivalent adult male who does train.

I do get the impression your grasping at straws mate.


----------



## Mclovin147 (Nov 11, 2013)

Verno said:


> Maybe a bit of footie rugby but weights?
> 
> I thought the issue here was about natty training vs juice and not training?
> 
> ...


Your talking about a COMPLETELY different thing here mate.

The original disscussion was Man Juicing but not lifting weights v Man lifting weights and not juicing - I don't care how much a boy going through puberty gains, it's irrelevant. He will be gaining weight/size for many reasons. Reasons that won't be effecting a man on juice.


----------



## Mingster (Mar 25, 2011)

Merkleman said:


> Test is a natural hormone, so if you're providing your body with more testosterone, it will naturally use it to build muscle and your body won't think of it as 'unnatural' surely? Whereas training without gear and tearing muscles to stimulate muscle growth is not what the body is used to, so gains will be less.
> 
> That's how I imagine it anyway?


Why are some of the guys on here that take 1g a week not massive then? :confused1:


----------



## Mingster (Mar 25, 2011)

Merkleman said:


> I think the gains would be a lot more noticeable for somebody with a natural frame new to lifting, after a certain period the gains would slow down dramatically. But that happens even when you're training, so I doubt it would be any different.


So you can only make gains by taking testosterone whilst not training under certain circumstances then?


----------



## Verno (Apr 18, 2008)

Mclovin147 said:


> Your talking about a COMPLETELY different thing here mate.
> 
> The original disscussion was Man Juicing but not lifting weights v Man lifting weights and not juicing - I don't care how much a boy going through puberty gains, it's irrelevant. He will be gaining weight/size for many reasons. Reasons that won't be effecting a man on juice.


How are they completely different?

It's not irrelevant it just doesn't fit your argument. Yes there will be many factors effecting a boy during puberty as there will be an adult male on any given day. For the boy however the biggest factor by far will be a huge increase in testosterone.

Man/boy what does it matter the biggest factor here is testosterone and no training vs training and no testosterone. and I maintain that a boy going from childhood to adulthood will put on a larger ammount of muscle with little to no effort than a man training natty.

You wanted proof, there it is, I don't know how to simplify it for you anymore?


----------



## Mingster (Mar 25, 2011)

Merkleman said:


> No, I'm saying gains would probably be better from the start but decrease as time went by. Just for example, if they did the study on you, and you were in the group which didn't train but took testosterone jabs, I don't think you'd put on 7lbs of muscle. You'd probably still gain some though.


I'm not trying to dig you out. Just discussing points raised in the thread in general.

IMO it's possible to gain muscle from taking test without training, but only in very limited circumstances. I haven't used aas in over a year but if I were to start taking 500mg a week tomorrow and stop training I suspect I would lose muscle not gain it.

Alternatively, although not in great condition, my avi pic was taken the week I was diagnosed with a pituitary tumour and my test level was 'undetectable'. Again, and only in imo, high test levels don't necessarily mean muscle gains and low test levels don't necessarily mean muscle loss.


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## Mclovin147 (Nov 11, 2013)

Verno said:


> How are they completely different?
> 
> It's not irrelevant it just doesn't fit your argument. Yes there will be many factors effecting a boy during puberty as there will be an adult male on any given day. For the boy however the biggest factor by far will be a huge increase in testosterone.
> 
> ...


I still don't care how much muscle a teenage boy gains during puberty because it is still irellevant to whether or not a man injecting Test can gain 10lbs of muscle in 10 weeks without lifting a single weight.

Is that simple enough for you?


----------



## Verno (Apr 18, 2008)

Mclovin147 said:


> I still don't care how much muscle a teenage boy gains during puberty because it is still irellevant to whether or not a man injecting Test can gain 10lbs of muscle in 10 weeks without lifting a single weight.
> 
> Is that simple enough for you?


Lol I don't need it simplifying it's you who appears to be struggling.

When did *I* say anything about ten lbs in ten weeks?

I said muscle vs muscle over any given time period of some one in receipt of large amounts of test over someone who isn't:confused1:

I know you now don't care, flippancy is often a sign of concession.


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## The-Real-Deal (Dec 5, 2014)

Verno said:


> How are they completely different?
> 
> It's not irrelevant it just doesn't fit your argument. Yes there will be many factors effecting a boy during puberty as there will be an adult male on any given day. For the boy however the biggest factor by far will be a huge increase in testosterone.
> 
> ...


You could be just a little bit wrong here Verno.....

The boy turning into a man has test levels which elevate throughout the teenage years these test levels only elevate to a natural level. The level of an adult male, so when an adult male trains he has the adult level of test soooooo he gains more muscle than the teen right up to his natural potential governed by his natural test levels. I was a right skinny bur very fit cnut as a teen right into my early-mid 20s. My metabolism was also very high which burned a lot of energy as a youngster. Things like metabolism also make for a large difference in the ability to gain.


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## Verno (Apr 18, 2008)

> You could be just a little bit wrong here Verno.....
> 
> The boy turning into a man has test levels which elevate throughout the teenage years these test levels only elevate to a natural level. The level of an adult male, so when an adult male trains he has the adult level of test soooooo he gains more muscle than the teen right up to his natural potential governed by his natural test levels. I was a right skinny bur very fit cnut as a teen right into my early-mid 20s. My metabolism was also very high which burned a lot of energy as a youngster. Things like metabolism also make for a large difference in the ability to gain.


Granted mate I agree with that in part :wink: . My original point however was that a teen can gain a huge ammount of muscle from this natural test "injection" for very little output ie lifting weights.

So would it be so unbelievably that two adult males with similar test levels (for arguments sake) would then see vastly different results if one of them starts banging in ahalf gram of test per week? Even if the latter wasn't training.

In theory is it not like starting puberty all over again for the latter male compared to the former? If that makes sense


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## Verno (Apr 18, 2008)

Btw I was fookin tiny till I hit 14 then all of a sudden it looked like I'd forgotten to take the coat hanger out of my blazer


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## The-Real-Deal (Dec 5, 2014)

Verno said:


> Granted mate I agree with that in part :wink: . My original point however was that a teen can gain a huge ammount of muscle from this natural test "injection" for very little output ie lifting weights.
> 
> So would it be so unbelievably that two adult males with similar test levels (for arguments sake) would then see vastly different results if one of them starts banging in ahalf gram of test per week? Even if the latter wasn't training.
> 
> In theory is it not like starting puberty all over again for the latter male compared to the former? If that makes sense


No I would say to see any big gains you need to exceed your natural test level/threshold.


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## Verno (Apr 18, 2008)

> No I would say to see any big gains you need to exceed your natural test level/threshold.


Are we not now being person specific rather than generalising though?


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## The-Real-Deal (Dec 5, 2014)

Verno said:


> Are we not now being person specific rather than generalising though?


No not really....Ok we will all have a variation when it comes to test levels however they all should be within the "normal" range.


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## Mclovin147 (Nov 11, 2013)

Verno said:


> Lol I don't need it simplifying it's you who appears to be struggling.
> 
> When did *I* say anything about ten lbs in ten weeks?
> 
> ...


No I was being flippant because I lost my paitence.

The original disscussion was as follows I belive;

- Study showing a group of regular men who injected X amount of Test gained 10lbs of muscles in 10 weeks *without training*.

(The same study also showed as followed)

- Study showing a group of regular men training *Without AAS assistance* gained around 4lbs of muscle was it, I forget exact.

I was sceptical that someone who hasn't touched a weight, or stimulated his muscles at all, could gain more muscle over a 10 week period with AAS, than someone who had been training, but without AAS

I was under the impression that AAS was just a tool, a catalyst if you will, and that given the correct training and diet, you would exceed your natural ability to gain muscle.

This study suggests you don't even need to lift weights in order to add decent muscle mass to your frame.

Now to your point; How much a teenager going through puberty can gain in terms of muscle has no stable/reliable connection to a grown man synthetically raising his Test levels to God knows what level. There's far too many variables at hand to make any comparison or jump to any conclusion, and it sure as hell does not prove that a man can gain more muscle by injecting himself with Test and not lifting weights, than a man lifting weights unassisted.

Hope that cleared it up a little mate

--

I also made the point that *If* that study was correct and AAS users already had an automatic 10lb of muscle in 10 week before they have even started lifting, then they can stop the whole 'We need to work just as hard as a natty' because this Study would suggest they have it significantly easier and require much less work than someone training naturally. AAS users would disagree obviously, but thats just what the study said, not me  lol

Two types of AAS users on this forum Iv noticed;

1. AAS is just a tool, without correct diet and training, you won't gain. We have to work just as hard as natural trainers. If your not gaining naturally your not going to gain with AAS

The other type of AAS users on UKM;

2. AAS is magic, you can gain 10lbs of muscle in 10 weeks sat on your **** and not even step foot in a gym!

Im Just a humble natty wondering which view was correct....


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Merkleman said:


> Test is a natural hormone, so if you're providing your body with more testosterone, it will naturally use it to build muscle and your body won't think of it as 'unnatural' surely? Whereas training without gear and tearing muscles to stimulate muscle growth is not what the body is used to, so gains will be less.
> 
> That's how I imagine it anyway?


Errr, no. Taking testosterone to raise levels to MUCH higher than occur naturally (even during puberty) is not by any stretch of the imagination natural. Whereas the body responding to a stressful stimulus (weight training in this case) by adapting to better cope with these stresses in future (by building muscle) is completely natural - it is what we have evolved to do. I don't suppose you meant this, but the body also doesn't use testosterone to build muscle, rather testosterone acts as a stimulus for muscle to be built.

I'm not of course disagreeing that you get more muscle growth with AAS though!


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## Verno (Apr 18, 2008)

Mclovin147 said:


> No I was being flippant because I lost my paitence.
> 
> The original disscussion was as follows I belive;
> 
> ...


I read merks post and I understand what your saying, can't remeber him sighting any reference tho?

However I'm not referring to the study. If test can make such a massive difference to a fairly inactive boy's body (and yes I know there are other factors but I'm fairly sure test is the largest) then I really don't understand why it can't be the same in an adult male regardless of lifting output, after all aren't we just replicating puberty again to an extent?

Look at women users for example, now I may be wrong here but is it not safe to say that there voices would deepen, stronger jawline and enlarged clit without lifting weights?

Btw I think it's a mixture of both. Men will notice an increase in muscle from using test even if they don't lift but to maximise the use of juice your diet and training need to be on point


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## nWo (Mar 25, 2014)

Merkleman said:


> Test is a natural hormone, so if you're providing your body with more testosterone, it will naturally use it to build muscle and your body won't think of it as 'unnatural' surely? Whereas training without gear and tearing muscles to stimulate muscle growth is not what the body is used to, so gains will be less.
> 
> That's how I imagine it anyway?


Not really mate. It's much more the case that steroids stimulate the formation of new proteins within the muscle (i.e. more muscle) as well as increasing protein synthesis/the rate at and magnitude of which proteins are taken and used to build lean tissue. No matter how high your body's own testosterone is, it won't have the same effects as synthetic testosterone. This is the exact reason why teenagers don't make steroid-like gains :wink:


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## MKattenberg (Jul 21, 2013)

can also be fat around ur arms that ur losing. I'm also cutting right now.. Arm size did go down a little but also the 'mm' of fat on my arms went down. feeling tiny too but when i work out and pumped i feel larger than life.


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## teenphysique (Jul 1, 2014)

nattyash said:


> Training natty, 10lbs lost on cut so far and god I feel so small! Not.sure how long i can carry it on but I really wanna get lean and start again. Just been reading.for every 10lbs of weight you lose you will lose an inch off ure arms ????????????. I know muscle memory works if you have been out of the gym but does it work when you have been on a cut. Feels like im ****ing away all my gains ????


Get a tape measure and measure your arms , legs , waste i m sure your mind is playing tricks on you and then you have probably lost some the water retention and glycogen that will return on a reverse diet and you will look bigger


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## Mclovin147 (Nov 11, 2013)

Yeah I think muscle loss is to be expected whilst cutting natty mate.

But that's the problem a lot of people have, if your bulk isn't clean/good enough, and you don't put on enough muscle Aswell as fat, when you cut your going to end up in exactly the same place as you started.

Your losing 1.5Lbs a week? That seems ok to me, anymore and I would be concerned. Collectively you've lost just over 10lbs on this cut? That's a decent number already, perhaps your ready to hit the bulk again mate. Your not going to be able to just bulk and cut and be (For example) 90Kg 8% bf first time around, it doesn't work like that natty mate. Multiple bulks & cuts over the years is what it is going to take, and each time you cut your going to be left with a little bit more muscle than last time I.e First cut final weight 83Kg, Second cut final weight 86Kg etc (Weight and BF plucked from the air mate)

Keep your goals realistic mate and you'll get there!


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## tehdarkstar (Jul 15, 2014)

nattyash said:


> Training natty, 10lbs lost on cut so far and god I feel so small! Not.sure how long i can carry it on but I really wanna get lean and start again. Just been reading.for every 10lbs of weight you lose you will lose an inch off ure arms ????????????. I know muscle memory works if you have been out of the gym but does it work when you have been on a cut. Feels like im ****ing away all my gains ????


Back to the OP.

I think the issue with this is that bodybuilding 'natty' is very different to doing it on gear. The drugs will allow you to be far more aggressive on a bulk and put on less fat whilst gaining a lot of lean muscle mass, and will also allow you to be more aggressive on a cut allowing you to get rid of the fat whilst preserving more muscle. People that blast and cruise can carry on making big gains and then preserving those gains, keeping a very lean physique all year around. At least that is my understanding as I don't take gear myself.

Training 'natty' is different. Our body cannot cope naturally with those extremes of bulking and cutting cycles and will put lots more fat on a bulk and lose a lot more muscle on a cut. We have to take things a lot milder and with a much longer term approach. Instead of bulking and cutting what you should be doing, IMHO, is to start by planning your workouts around lifting heavy and making progress in terms of weight on the bar. Bodies not on gear make more gains lifting heavy than higher volumes and if your weights are going up and your workouts are well designed to work whole body in balance, you will grow.

Once you have your workout plan, adjust your diet so that you can maintain your performance and make those strength gains in the gym without increasing your body fat. For me I find that right now 3K calories is a good place, my body fat has remained stable and my workouts have all been following according to plan. Also plan your macros split so that you get the energy you need for lifting without exaggerating on carbs. I'm on a 20% carbs, 30% protein, 50% fat split right now and that seems to be working well.

If you start to feel like your progress is slowing down, try one of two things:

- Up your calories slightly (~10%) and track your changes in body

- Review your training program and shuffle things around to help break some plateaus

If you find that you have abused of cheat meals, a bit too many calories, what not, then decrease your cals slightly (again, ~10%) and observe how your body reacts. If you see that weight is not dropping after a week, reduce it by a bit more.

Now, the most important thing for me when training naturally is the mindset though: do not expect fast gains. This is a marathon, not a sprint. I just realised that over the last 6(!!!) months I've put 1.3 inches on my arms, none on my chest, 2 on my shoulders and lost a couple of inches on my waist, hips and thighs. Someone training on gear would be laughing at these results because they can put on a lot more very quickly. My point being: if you want results fast, gear is the path you should take. If you want to do it 'natty', then accept that it will take you a long, long time.

The other aspect is the diligence in following your plan. When 'natty' every cheat meal, unplanned cals or missed workout matter much more than on gear. If you want to do it without drugs, be prepared to be a lot harder on yourself. I do not miss workouts unless I'm ill or injured and I if I get away from my meals planned for the day, then I make sure I make up for it the next day. When you walk in the gym, take each workout as seriously as possible: whatever you leave in the tank is just pushing your goals a bit farther away.

I hope this does not offend anyone. All the stated above is personal opinion and may be wrong. I think the biggest mistake 'natty' bodybuilders make is to emulate what the people on gear are doing: it won't work. Our bodies are operating differently and will respond differently.

Oh, one last thing: set your goals realistically. I know that I will never look like Mike O'Hearn. Also I have accepted that I do not want to compromise on my family life to be super lean so I'm happy to have 15% body fat. I'm a biggish dude and yet not fat for regular people's standards. If you set yourself unrealistic goals you will be always chasing that dream.

Hope this helps.


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## nattyash (Nov 17, 2014)

tehdarkstar said:


> Back to the OP.
> 
> I think the issue with this is that bodybuilding 'natty' is very different to doing it on gear. The drugs will allow you to be far more aggressive on a bulk and put on less fat whilst gaining a lot of lean muscle mass, and will also allow you to be more aggressive on a cut allowing you to get rid of the fat whilst preserving more muscle. People that blast and cruise can carry on making big gains and then preserving those gains, keeping a very lean physique all year around. At least that is my understanding as I don't take gear myself.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the above. Made good reading and made good sense. I know it's a marathon and that is the mindset I have always had. I enjoy going and pushing myself naturally. I am just gonna forget about size and aslong as I stay at my current strength or as close as is possible I am going to cut down still and when u am happy I will go again being able to keep a closer tab on things.


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## tehdarkstar (Jul 15, 2014)

nattyash said:


> Thanks for the above. Made good reading and made good sense. I know it's a marathon and that is the mindset I have always had. I enjoy going and pushing myself naturally. I am just gonna forget about size and aslong as I stay at my current strength or as close as is possible I am going to cut down still and when u am happy I will go again being able to keep a closer tab on things.


Sounds like a plan man, and as long as you keep having fun in the gym it should be all good.


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## jackedjackass (Nov 16, 2014)

> There is a lot of what I call recreational ASS users on this site who swear by the drugs they are abusing. The natty contingent just get "you cant do this" or "you cant gain this size" etc "because your a natty". I say Bull-****,e to these lot.
> 
> There is a natural limit you will hit eventually if you train long and hard enough. This limit way surpasses any of the recreational users physics Ive seen, most of them are (NOT ALL I might add) are fcuking clueless when it comes to training.....They rely on the magic potions they use
> 
> ...


I have done both ways for years.

There difference on paper is small, in the mirror though, it's another planet.

That said, everyone can look decent natty, as long they are lean.

On the other side, steroids will only work well if everything is spot on.

It is pointless to put it in numbers, the same person on steroids will just be bigger, leaner and fuller if training and diet are the same.

Might even be the same weight, the difference is visual.


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## jackedjackass (Nov 16, 2014)

FelonE said:


> Nuff said.


What the study did not consider is the water retention from the steroids.

Water will be counted as lean mass.

I do agree though, of course steroids make a significant difference.


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## Info Junkie (Nov 22, 2013)

Mingster said:



> I'm not trying to dig you out. Just discussing points raised in the thread in general.
> 
> IMO it's possible to gain muscle from taking test without training, but only in very limited circumstances. I haven't used aas in over a year but if I were to start taking 500mg a week tomorrow and stop training I suspect I would lose muscle not gain it.
> 
> Alternatively, although not in great condition, my avi pic was taken the week I was diagnosed with a pituitary tumour and my test level was 'undetectable'. Again, and only in imo, high test levels don't necessarily mean muscle gains and low test levels don't necessarily mean muscle loss.


Iv put on about 4lbs of muscle in 1.5 years training natty with 9-12nmol of test which is low , is recovery hard at times yes but just train bit smarter , it's my 5-6 year training all natural so gains be slow but still gained on low test as you said


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## SelflessSelfie (May 25, 2014)

Firstly to OP.

One thing to consider is the water you are losing. It's this loss of intramuscular water that will make you look and feel small. When you are done cutting and switch to a bulk you will soon take on that water again and fill out, so don't worry. I have done long cuts natty and strength soon bounces back.

When it comes to Natty vs Enhanced?

I am known by my friends and family as a switch, I only do 0 or 100% my training is no exception. Though there have been times in my life where other things have had my attention so diet has suffered, hence my current condition.

One thing I have learned is that with enough effort you can make solid progress as a Natty, but it is slow, you will back track somehow by either gaining fat bulking or losing some of your muscle cutting and you will suffer for it. It's often forgotten that cutting Natty is actually worse for you than doing it assisted in terms of health (when trying to get very lean).

Now I have only done one cycle so far in six years of training but it was an eye opener. After a year of being lapse with my diet and looking like sh1t I managed to then turn myself around, beat all my personal bests and make substantial changes to my physique in one short 12 week cycle.

I start my second cycle Sunday and will push myself to my limits. The end of this will mark a one year transformation for me, some done natty, some done on AAS. Hopefully I can get pictures from the different periods to show just how big of a difference AAS makes.

To me it's like night and day.


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## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

SelflessSelfie said:


> Firstly to OP.
> 
> One thing to consider is the water you are losing. It's this loss of intramuscular water that will make you look and feel small. When you are done cutting and switch to a bulk you will soon take on that water again and fill out, so don't worry. I have done long cuts natty and strength soon bounces back.
> 
> ...


I honestly think if a lot of natties did a cycle they'd fvcking love the gains made and see what the fuss is about. Not saying anyone should and fairplay if they wanna stay natty...........they'd fvcking love it though lol.


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## SelflessSelfie (May 25, 2014)

FelonE said:


> I honestly think if a lot of natties did a cycle they'd fvcking love the gains made and see what the fuss is about. Not saying anyone should and fairplay if they wanna stay natty...........they'd fvcking love it though lol.


They would soon change their tune haha.

It's only really the preachy Natty's who p1ss me off, like they are better for being natty. Reminds me of preachy vegans. But I really don't like people talking down to anyone.

Not that I think anyone should feel pressured or anything and I respect people's choices on these matters but fvcking hell how I blew up on dbol, then hardened on test and how I felt on that little bit of tren..... Training natural doesn't compare, swear I could of done 3 hour lifting sessions no problem on gear, was a machine.

Doing Test, tren, masteron, anavar and bridging with winstrol starting Sunday. Hoping to see some drastic results.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

FelonE said:


> I honestly think if a lot of natties did a cycle they'd fvcking love the gains made and see what the fuss is about.


I think most natties know perfectly well they could make MUCH better gains using gear, but they choose not, usually due to long term health concerns. It's not that they don't get 'what the fuss is about', but rather they have different priorties. This is certainly the case for myself.


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## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

Ultrasonic said:


> I think most natties know perfectly well they could make MUCH better gains using gear, but they choose not, usually due to long term health concerns. It's not that they don't get 'what the fuss is about', but rather they have different priorties. This is certainly the case for myself.


Up to you.


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## SelflessSelfie (May 25, 2014)

AlQaholic said:


> Is OP still natty or has ukm done it's work?


OP has probably already ordered 50ml of tren and test.


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