# Performance enhancing drug discussion: Human growth hormone



## swole troll

Use this thread to discuss, ask and answer questions regarding

Human growth hormone (HGH, gh, rHGH, growth)

Growth hormone or somatotropin, also known as human growth hormone in its human form, is a peptide hormone that stimulates growth, cell reproduction, and cell regeneration in humans and other animals. It is thus important in human development.

Esters:



N/A recombinant freeze dried powder


Route of administration:



Injection (intramuscular and subcutaneous)


*post your experiences with this compound in regards to:

cycle length, dosage and other compounds used if applicable.
side effects you physically noticed and blood work results.
how you rate the compound overall / comparisons to other compounds of similar nature, your overall gains vs the side effects.*

(keep discussion largely centered to the subject matter, excessive derailing will be deleted)


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## swole troll

wanted to make this one for a minute so be prepared for a rant

I've used HGH ranging from 2iu per day up to 10iu 5x per week and most doses in between

I find as little as 2iu per day to offer the benefits I want and expect from GH (will go into this more below) and although very subtle in regard to its performance enhancement that is simply the nature of GH

sweet spot if money is no object I personally like 5iu x5 per week, any more and my wrists just start pounding and my hands feel like they've been injected full of water to the point of bursting and grip takes a huge hit

I find titration to be key with GH if you want to avoid the CTS side effects or just as bad the ridiculous fatigue, at 10iu monday to friday i was hanging out my ass! like literally felt like I could sleep all day and even if i did nap id wake up just as worn out

now onto the benefits

improved sleep, improved recovery, better body composition / nutrient partitioning, fuller appearance hmm that's about it at all doses ime

didn't turn into Dorian Yates, couldn't eat dominos all day and maintain a full six pack, didn't pile on slabs of muscle mass at an alarming rate

GH is like the forbidden fruit for people budgeting and as such they are certain that it is the key they are missing as to why they're not massive... its not.

it is subtle even at high dose and if you were to buy 500iu of gh and slam the lot over 3 months and your twin brother buys 5 vials of test and slams the lot over 3 months he'll leave you in the dust in regards to size and strength and save himself a big wad of cash

yes GH and insulin is what created the 90s mass monsters ONCE EVERY OTHER AVENUE WAS EXHAUSTED: they were eating tons of food, had tons of muscle mass, strong as f**k, taking plenty of gear, killing themselves in the gym and sleeping as much as possible for many many years then these subtle additions helped tip them over the edge on top of all the rest of it

personally I've found the addition of GH and insulin just gave me a fuller look with almost a watery sheath under my skin even when fairly lean more than anything else
all of this went away whenever I cease usage

I feel GH and slin just makes me look bigger through masses of intramuscular water retention which looks great but how much it actually adds to my overall gains? I don't think anything ground breaking and certainly no where close to even 500mg test as I said above but its hard to say on the whole how much since aside from one time I've always done the GH and slin combo on a blast where its hard to 100% quantify what is doing what without adding and removing things and reassessing

but one way that GH does add to gains for sure is better sleep and recovery (arguably recovery is enhanced merely because you are sleeping so much deeper and longer)

growth hormone would have far less attention if it were called 'look a little fuller, sleep and recover a little better hormone' rather than *G R O W T H*  hormone

so just to clarify I think GH has its place but is best served as a 'top up' rather than people expecting crazy results from it based off its name and how much cash it set them back

I think if you've got enough cash and want to get the most from it without running it year round then it's best served during a cruise or off time from gear when you want to stack all possible odds in your favor without a cost to health / blood markers effected by AAS

this is also the most significant time for that full effect I was referring to above

what is the worse things about being off cycle or blast:

looking flat
losing strength 
worse recovery 
losing muscle (although this is much less than people think, its more fullness related)

well HGH (combined with slin to amplify) addresses the flatness and recovery plus GH has anticatabolic properties so will further help with muscle preservation

so this is why I predominantly use HGH during a cruise since when I'm blasting gear none of the above is an issue

right if you're still reading this well done and if you're not I'm going to put the next sentence in bold for those that skim over

*LACK OF EXOGENOUS HGH IS NOT THE REASON YOU ARE NOT MASSIVE, STOP SAVING EVERY PENNY TO BUY TINY LITTLE DOSES BECAUSE EVEN THE BIG DOSES WONT PUT AS MUCH SIZE ON YOU AS A SINGLE POT OF ANADROL WILL, TRAIN HARD, REST PLENTY, EAT EVEN MORE AND TAKE A BIT OF GEAR THEN DO IT FOR A DECADE, NOTHING IS FAST IN THIS GAME AND NO DRUG IS THE SECRET YOU ARE MISSING.*


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## TALBOTL

swole troll said:


> so just to clarify I think GH has its place but is best served as a 'top up' rather than people expecting crazy results from it based off its name and how much cash it set them back
> 
> I think if you've got enough cash and want to get the most from it without running it year round then it's best served during a cruise or off time from gear when you want to stack all possible odds in your favor without a cost to health / blood markers effected by AAS


 Not proposing this myself ST but do you think it could be used individually for the reasons you post above relating to recovery and sleep? 2iu for a long period of time maybe even a year.

This may turn out to be a weird analogy, but I've always viewed HGH as the high octane fuel of the bodybuilding world so if you want to make the car go faster yes it may possibly help maximise your results but ultimately bolt on modifications will add the performance (standard anabolics)

I'm in the research stages of cycles and I always like to learn about things, I don't think I'd ever bother with HGH to be honest I'm lucky that I don't struggle with sleep and also lucky with recovery, always tended to heal quickly from rugby injuries whether that be cuts or indeed muscle injuries.

Also from limited research I couldn't find anything definitive, are there are any supplements available that may assist in increased natural production or are they along the same lines as natural test boosters and effectively just hot air marketing? Not talking MK677 either.


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## swole troll

TALBOTL said:


> Not proposing this myself ST but do you think it could be used individually for the reasons you post above relating to recovery and sleep? 2iu for a long period of time maybe even a year....


 Yes it'd still work the same

There is no synergy between gh and aas (bar maybe tren) beyond that of simply more overall net anabolism / anticatabolism

But again it's ex subtle, we're not talking monthly changes like one might see with aas, more a slight increase in the overall lean muscle gain over say a 3 month period

Not because gh has to build up as is often stated but more because it adds so little that you need these prolonged time frames to even see any of the true benefit to adding mass

Plus you don't get any direct performance enhancement benefit (strength) so you really don't see much in return until a long period of time has passed.

Peptides are more or less exactly what you're describing as your interest in your last sentence

Ghrp and ghrh will release a large pulse of your endogenous gh.

Worth noting that using hgh or gh secretagogues does mean you have cashed in your natty card in the eyes of WADA

Also both of which needs to be injected which begs the question of why not just use testosterone and get FAR greater results at a fraction of the cost


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## TALBOTL

swole troll said:


> Yes it'd still work the same
> 
> There is no synergy between gh and aas (bar maybe tren) beyond that of simply more overall net anabolism / anticatabolism
> 
> But again it's ex subtle, we're not talking monthly changes like one might see with aas, more a slight increase in the overall lean muscle gain over say a 3 month period
> 
> Not because gh has to build up as is often stated but more because it adds so little that you need these prolonged time frames to even see any of the true benefit to adding mass
> 
> Plus you don't get any direct performance enhancement benefit (strength) so you really don't see much in return until a long period of time has passed.
> 
> Peptides are more or less exactly what you're describing as your interest in your last sentence
> 
> Ghrp and ghrh will release a large pulse of your endogenous gh.
> 
> Worth noting that using hgh or gh secretagogues does mean you have cashed in your natty card in the eyes of WADA
> 
> Also both of which needs to be injected which begs the question of why not just use testosterone and get FAR greater results at a fraction of the cost


 I think the majority of questions I see on here surrounding GH relate exactly to what you're saying - people expect far, far too much from it and directly connect it to Test and alike.

It would seem in reality that time & money is much better spent elsewhere, whether that be aas or more time asleep/in the kitchen.

Funnily enough, I'm no longer in sport so not tested, hence why I have started to look in to potential usage.

Read a few of yours and others posts on MK677 and I don't think I'd opt for that either, seems to mainly create hunger and water retention neither of which are appealing to me.

Test is best as the saying goes..


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## swole troll

TALBOTL said:


> I think the majority of questions I see on here surrounding GH relate exactly to what you're saying - people expect far, far too much from it and directly connect it to Test and alike.
> 
> It would seem in...


 It's more that most struggle to budget for it and therefor assume that's the reason they're not as big as the next guy

It's just impatience or a lack of work ethic

The former because even when you do everything right it still takes bloody years to significantly accrue muscle mass even when enhanced (not talking about the bullshit water and glycogen retention, I'm talking the actual lean tissue difference pre and post cycle)

The latter because some don't train that hard or smartly and the same goes for their nutrition.

You could get grotesquely muscle bound without ever touching growth hormone


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## Bensif

All I will really say in this matter is, I have used HGH (Pharma) since 2013 in a bid to aid my Crohn's disease. In that respect it works if I use enough during and after a flare up.

Im not massive like Ronnie Coleman after 6 years.

If you think this will make you ripped or make you huge, please put your wallet anyway and instead go to the supermarket. Those two goals first happen in the supermarket and later your kitchen.

Now, I do think HGH over the longer term has changed the way I store body fat and where, but this was only really apparent after I got contest lean for the first time. I've actually been off it now for about 4 months (I think) and have noticed no real difference in body fat accumulation.

It is my belief that being lean for a long time has a far greater affect on staying lean as well as gaining and losing body fat that HGH will.

Given it's cost, potential impurities in generics and other options available, I would highly advise people focus their energies elsewhere.


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## arbffgadm100

I am a huge fan of GH.

I get zero sides with it, even having gone as high as 6IU daily using pharma.

I settled on 3-4IU as a good balance between outrageous cost and outrageous benefits.

I don't disagree with anything @swole troll has said regarding people on a budget not needing it and or the ability to get huge and or lean without it, but having used it on and off for several years now it has enabled me to keep the dose relatively low (and the blasts increasingly less frequent) for a good long while now, and still make gains commensurate to a low level blast year-round.

I think, purely speculatively, that if you can afford it, then progressing with AAS+GH vs just AAS is probably "healthier". There's certainly nothing like the impact from GH use on e.g. your liver, BP, sex hormones or lipids, like there is with AAS.

My personal take, based solely on my own experience with it, is that GH is the best-kept, open-secret in BBing. People like to say that it's the icing on the cake, but assuming everything else is in check, I gain really well on low doses of AAS and moderate GH (or perhaps I am just at the "GH-super-responder" end of the bell curve, who knows?).

I also put a lot of store on what Broderick Chavez has to say, and in his view the reason GH gave rise to freaky monsters in the last 20-30 years is because the doses being used by some people he knows personally are literally insane. 15-30IU daily for long periods of time. He maintains that the reason a lot of 'internet people' say GH is the cherry on the icing on the cake, is because they are buying a 100IU kit and expecting miracles, when a lot of these mega mass monsters are using that in a week or less.

As a final point to add to this thread, I think the prevailing dogma regarding needing to use insulin with GH (to get the best out of it) is total bullshit and has no basis in science. In terms of tissue building, insulin is complementary to GH, just like eating protein is, but in the mechanism of action there's nothing to tie them together to the point where you need one to use the other.


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## swole troll

I'll reply with some more substance later as I'm on the road at the moment (not literally)

But yes I agree with the above that gh let's you get more out of less and a nice ladder approach before hammering aas doses up could be to up gear, make most of it over x amount of cycles then the next cycle add gh and make the most of it over x cycles, then increase gear dose, then gh dose ect...

You can also add insulin to this equation of ped titration as needed and if desired


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## Phil_tuggins

I've ran it at twice, 3 months at a time. My regret is I didn't use insulin too as when I went to the doctors for an related problem, tests revealed in was close to type 2 diabetic. Thankfully that went.

Even with just test (in my case at the time 750-1g) plus 2-3ius GH 6xs week did help with body composition better then simply using AAS. Btw I was using nordtropin


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## Gaz80

Hi I'm looking for some information if anyone can help that's has experience that would be awesome, I'm basically 39 years old have a family work as roofer and my passion is rock climbing which is very random orientated it can be a balancing act between over training and or even having the energy to train sometimes. I found out about hgh 8 years ago and gave it a try it was kigtropin I used for 3 months and it was great I felt more energetic slept well recovered well and could train for days lol.. unfortunately I couldnt get anymore and eventually forgot all about it.

So anyways I've managed to source some more the brand is genx tropin, bit can find very little on it, what I have found was positive so I'm optimistic, I'm coming to the end of my first week so not expecting too much yet hopefully next weekday feel some changes, the only thing that is bothering me is every jab I do is resulting in a small lump under my skin and is lasting a few days and is leaving the areas a bit tender, I cant remember this happening last time but it was 8 years ago..

Any information would be great, sorry for jumping on a bodybuilder forum when I'm not but no info anywhere else ..

Gaz


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## Jaling

Been thinking about it purely for the sleep enhancement. But for the price and what you've said about the water retention I highly doubt it'll ever be something in my arsenal. Unless it was given to me. Which again, I highly doubt!


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## swole troll

Jaling said:


> Been thinking about it purely for the sleep enhancement. But for the price and what you've said about the water retention I highly doubt it'll ever be something in my arsenal. Unless it was given to me. Which again, I highly doubt!


 You can use as little as 2iu and experience the sleep benefits.

Personally I tend to float around the 2-5iu range otherwise I get sluggish and my grip starts going.

That and I think it's pretty low on the list of muscle builders and performance enhancers which at higher doses even has a detriment to PE as insulin sens goes to s**t, then you bring in slin and it becomes a plate spin.

Definitley has it's place but I do feel the price tag and name is half the allure.

(I've just wrote all this out and realized it just echoes what I've already wrote ITT

Never mind, still stand by it :lol: )


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## Jaling

swole troll said:


> You can use as little as 2iu and experience the sleep benefits.
> 
> Personally I tend to float around the 2-5iu range otherwise I get sluggish and my grip starts going.
> 
> That and I think it's pretty low on the list of muscle builders and performance enhancers which at higher doses even has a detriment to PE as insulin sens goes to s**t, then you bring in slin and it becomes a plate spin.
> 
> Definitley has it's place but I do feel the price tag and name is half the allure.
> 
> (I've just wrote all this out and realized it just echoes what I've already wrote ITT
> 
> Never mind, still stand by it :lol: )


 Yeah I did actually read it all dude lol

Should of just copy and pasted ha

Also skin and GH are beyond what my goals are. Can't say that will be for everm but I personally never see myself using insulin. But what put me off gear years ago what reading all this conflicting info about AI use. And just thought ' nah not for me'. But I use gear now...

I do only want the improved sleep/recovery.

I'm actually thinking of running mk-677 at 10mg a day instead as have some and you said this dose improved sleep without major sides. I know slightly of topic but still related to GH. As I all ready have MK here do think this is a good way to go?

Even 10mg EOD..


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## swole troll

Jaling said:


> Yeah I did actually read it all dude lol
> 
> Should of just copy and pasted ha
> 
> Also skin and GH are beyond what my goals are. Can't say that will be for everm but I personally never see myself using insulin. But what put me off gear years ago what reading all this conflicting info about AI use. And just thought ' nah not for me'. But I use gear now...
> 
> I do only want the improved sleep/recovery.
> 
> I'm actually thinking of running mk-677 at 10mg a day instead as have some and you said this dose improved sleep without major sides. I know slightly of topic but still related to GH. As I all ready have MK here do think this is a good way to go?
> 
> Even 10mg EOD..


 Ibutamoren works great for sleep and appetite but jacks up blood sugars.

It's a really messy drug.

Have some berberine and or metformin to hand and probably best off just running them straight out the gate since an increase in insulin sensitivity is only a good thing and mk677 is the worse compound I've ever used for increasing BG.


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## iron2000

Thoughts on HGH from China? Seems ridiculously cheap and people seem happy with blood work.


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## Sasnak

iron2000 said:


> Thoughts on HGH from China? Seems ridiculously cheap and people seem happy with blood work.


 Third week next week on some generic I imported from China. 4iu weekdays. Appetite seems to be improved. Sleep definitely improved because I've slept well despite the heat. I normally wake in the night around 5am (I go to bed at 11) and struggle to get back to sleep but have been going through till 7am. Other than that nothing else to report.

Edit - I'm 47. I struggle with eating enough so if all I get is the ability to eat more plus better sleep it'll be worth it for me. 20 years ago I didn't have these issues. If you are young I'd question whether gh is worth it.


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## Sasnak

Gaz80 said:


> every jab I do is resulting in a small lump under my skin


 Some get this with subcutaneous jabs. Try going in a bit deeper into the muscle such as your delt


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## Jaling

swole troll said:


> Ibutamoren works great for sleep and appetite but jacks up blood sugars.
> 
> It's a really messy drug.
> 
> Have some berberine and or metformin to hand and probably best off just running them straight out the gate since an increase in insulin sensitivity is only a good thing and mk677 is the worse compound I've ever used for increasing BG.


 Wont bother with it. To much for to little imo


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## arbffgadm100

Here's some interesting literature for discussion:

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/7525120/

and

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/2294131/

So it would seem that potentially, timing matters. 
to what degree however is anyone's guess.


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## Jay Walker

I have run at 4iu during a 12 week cycle (high doses for me) and it did improve things, but only by a small margin. I did insulin with it for half of that cycle and really had no business doing so, but I did it as responsibly as I could and had no issues. Didnt make much difference for someone of my calibre, so didnt bother again.

Best results are currently 6 months into 2iu per day fasted first thing. Fasting blood sugars are still okay, so I will continue.

It has made some nice fat loss effects, but as Swoley has said so eloquently, its just not the magic formula or missing link people think it is. The name really intrinsically provide much of the hype.

Its nice if you can add it, especially I feel as you get older as a top up, but its nothing magical.


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## Jay Walker

I have run at 4iu during a 12 week cycle (high doses for me) and it did improve things, but only by a small margin. I did insulin with it for half of that cycle and really had no business doing so, but I did it as responsibly as I could and had no issues. Didnt make much difference for someone of my calibre, so didnt bother again.

Best results are currently 6 months into 2iu per day fasted first thing. Fasting blood sugars are still okay, so I will continue.

It has made some nice fat loss effects, but as Swoley has said so eloquently, its just not the magic formula or missing link people think it is. The name really intrinsically provide much of the hype.

Its nice if you can add it, especially I feel as you get older as a top up, but its nothing magical.


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## First time user

Hi, I’m new to using any type of drug but I want to add HGH to my intake. 
I have never purchased it so I was just looking for a guidance on what product and pice I’m realistically looking at? 
many advise would be much appreciated


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## First time user

Price*


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## WiCkEdLySaUcEd

I got my hand a few Norditropin 15mg/1.5ml Nordiflex pens. I know there are 45ius but I am uncertain what do set the dial to so I get 4 ius per stick. Any help would be great!


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