# Other opinions?



## Stef92 (Apr 16, 2015)

Hi all,

first post on here so hello to all..

looking to to see what other people's views are on my current nutrition and training regime.. I weight 88kg, 6ft.

Currently I am consuming around 2100 calories with a 40/40/20 split (protein/carb/fat) approx 200g of protein and carbs and 40g fat.

I train twice a day Monday - Friday and do HIIT training in the mornings and weights in the evenings.

My current body fat is 13%, with the vast majority of my fat stored where we all hate... Abdominal area! Have pasted my most recent BF readings below ..

Chest - 9mm

abs - 19mm

thigh - 9mm

subscapular - 23mm

supralliac - 16mm

mid-auxiliary - 14mm

tricep - 8mm

Lean muscle - 76.08%

body fat kg - 11.72

total body fat 13.35%



I can't see my abs at all.. Any views/recommendations on what worked well for you?
​
Thanks in advance


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## Charlee Scene (Jul 6, 2010)

Eat less


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## Stef92 (Apr 16, 2015)

Charlee Scene said:


> Eat less


 I'm eating approx 500 cals above my BMR surely if I started eating less it is gonna be bad for me I will have hardly any energy?!


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## Theseus (Feb 27, 2014)

TommyBananas said:


> If you're not losing bodyfat, you're eating too much.


straight to the point.

as hard as it sounds....that's the truth....

OP, maybe look into carb cycling, carb timing.

we all underestimate the calories contents ....weigh them, track them.


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## 2004mark (Oct 26, 2013)

88kg @ 6 foot then I'd suggest you're not 13% bf if you can't see any abs at all


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## Dark sim (May 18, 2013)

At 13% you would see abs, no doubt about that. Don't get caught up in the BF % game, means nothing.

You are doing something drastically wrong if you cannot lose weight with so little calories and with you training TWICE a day, 5 days a week.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Are you dropping weight (and body fat) eating 2100 calories per day? At what rate?

What sort of weight training are you doing every evening? If you are concerned about long term muscle and strength gains, and you are new to training, you may be better off switching to Stronglifts three times per week.


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## MRSTRONG (Apr 18, 2009)

do you have a vagina ?


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## Theseus (Feb 27, 2014)

MRSTRONG said:


> do you have a vagina ?


lol

13% bf for a female?...she will have hard rock abs....


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## MRSTRONG (Apr 18, 2009)

Theseus said:


> lol
> 
> 13% bf for a female?...she will have hard rock abs....


stef ?


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

MRSTRONG said:


> stef ?


Stefan possibly? I had the same initial thought, but all the stats/comments sound male...


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## John. (Jun 24, 2013)

Eating too much, and sorry but your training is stupid.

Full Body 3x a week and LISS Cardio 3x a week would be plenty to get the scales moving.

If you are losing weight, keep losing it until you see abs, simple - don't worry about bodyfat %, just worry about losing 1-2lbs a week until you see abs. Simples.


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## MRSTRONG (Apr 18, 2009)

Ultrasonic said:


> Stefan possibly? I had the same initial thought, but all the stats/comments sound male...


stef ----- fanny :lol:


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## Theseus (Feb 27, 2014)

MRSTRONG said:


> stef ----- fanny :lol:


someone is clearly having too much testosterone in his blood stream......

but i must say, that is funny...


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## Stef92 (Apr 16, 2015)

MRSTRONG said:


> do you have a vagina ?


 There's always some idiot who can't just provide helpful advise ! ??


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## Stef92 (Apr 16, 2015)

Dark sim said:


> At 13% you would see abs, no doubt about that. Don't get caught up in the BF % game, means nothing.
> 
> You are doing something drastically wrong if you cannot lose weight with so little calories and with you training TWICE a day, 5 days a week.


I've always thought this too as I have mates who are at around 15% and have visible abs! As you can see from my recent body fat % results most of the day is stored in the abdominal area 10mm or so more then other areas! What could I be doing drastically wrong ?


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## Stef92 (Apr 16, 2015)

Ultrasonic said:


> Are you dropping weight (and body fat) eating 2100 calories per day? At what rate?
> 
> What sort of weight training are you doing every evening? If you are concerned about long term muscle and strength gains, and you are new to training, you may be better off switching to Stronglifts three times per week.


Haven't lost weight on the scales but can see changes but minimal, having another analysis done in a couple weeks. Weight training in the evening is one muscle group per day and doing drop sets..


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Stef92 said:


> I've always thought this too as I have mates who are at around 15% and have visible abs! As you can see from my recent body fat % results most of the day is stored in the abdominal area 10mm or so more then other areas! What could I be doing drastically wrong ?


Different people lose fat from different areas at different rates - this is one reason why body fat estimates based on caliper readings are more accurate when more sites are used. The size and shape of your abs will be another factor of course. Someone with more developed abs will have them show at higher body fat levels.



Stef92 said:


> Haven't lost weight on the scales but can see changes but minimal, having another analysis done in a couple weeks. Weight training in the evening is one muscle group per day and doing drop sets..


Are you using any gear? That would complicate the weight/fat loss issue as it's more likely you'd be gaining muscle when in a deficit. On the face of it though you need to follow the advice earlier in the thread to drop your calorie intake a bit. If you think you're seeing some progress this may not need to be by much, so I'd suggest trying going from 2100 to 2000 kcal per day, by reducing carb intake. You may want to consider decreasing carbs a bit more and increasing fats to compensate as well.

If you don't already have some you might benefit from buying yourself some body fat calipers so you can track your own progress.


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## saxondale (Nov 11, 2012)

By what means did you arrive at 13%


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## Stef92 (Apr 16, 2015)

Ultrasonic said:


> Different people lose fat from different areas at different rates - this is one reason why body fat estimates based on caliper readings are more accurate when more sites are used. The size and shape of your abs will be another factor of course. Someone with more developed abs will have them show at higher body fat levels.
> 
> I'
> 
> ...


m on Clen and about to start my 2nd 2 weeks on on Monday. I have my own calipers yep, will look at trying to measure myself on a weekly basis, although find it hard to measure myself! So what split would you recommend if decreasing carbs and increasing fats? I guess my main concern is dropping too low on calories! I have always ate around 2k cals to drop weight I used to weigh around 16 stone so have lost fair bit just the last bit which is the hardest and has been for some time now!

Say I eat 200g carbs, of that 200g how much of that ideally should be of sugars? My sugar in stake tends to be around 80g a day coming from Quark, banana, snack a jacks..

Thanks bud


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## Stef92 (Apr 16, 2015)

saxondale said:


> By what means did you arrive at 13%


As mentioned in first post, calipers, measurements and weight/height.


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## saxondale (Nov 11, 2012)

Stef92 said:


> As mentioned in first post, calipers, measurements and weight/height.


Your measuring something wrong then mate - simple as.


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## Stef92 (Apr 16, 2015)

saxondale said:


> Your measuring something wrong then mate - simple as.


How? Measurements done by an PT at my gym


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## saxondale (Nov 11, 2012)

Stef92 said:


> How? Measurements done by an PT at my gym


You could have them taken by 3 different people on her and get 3 different answers.

Its an inacurate way of measuring things at best, you say youve already lost a fair bit, perhaps you need to cut even more calories (I dont subscribe to sub 2000 cals leaving people too weak)

Alternatively have a month off the diet then restart.


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## Smitch (Dec 29, 2008)

Jesus, if I trained 10 times a week and ate what you ate there'd be nothing left of me.

Something doesn't add up mate, maybe not calculating you cals correctly?

I don't count calories, but if I was trying to lose weight/fat and it wasn't working I'd just eat less.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Stef92 said:


> m on Clen and about to start my 2nd 2 weeks on on Monday. I have my own calipers yep, will look at trying to measure myself on a weekly basis, although find it hard to measure myself! So what split would you recommend if decreasing carbs and increasing fats? I guess my main concern is dropping too low on calories! I have always ate around 2k cals to drop weight I used to weigh around 16 stone so have lost fair bit just the last bit which is the hardest and has been for some time now!
> 
> Say I eat 200g carbs, of that 200g how much of that ideally should be of sugars? My sugar in stake tends to be around 80g a day coming from Quark, banana, snack a jacks..
> 
> Thanks bud


Different people do better with different carb/fat ratios so experiment - there is no 'perfect' optimal diet that everyone should follow. 40/30/30 wouldn't be a crazy thing to try though, but if you find it harder to stick to and/or it gives poorer results, try something else. I wouldn't worry too much about sugar, other than in that more complex carbs are likely to keep you feeling fuller for longer.

Smitch does have a point that it is surprising for someone your size and with your activity levels to be struggling to lose weight on 2100 kcal per day. But if you are counting everything properly, your only option is to drop calories lower.

How much were you eating before you started your cut out of interest?


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## Stef92 (Apr 16, 2015)

@Smitch - I use my fitness pal for everything I eat, and weigh everything myself so I believe i am pretty on point when it comes to calculating my macros and calories.

@Ultrasonic - will maintain at between 2000-2100 for the next few weeks as I have been for the past couple weeks and see where the next bf reading is at and see if I have lost size around the abdomin.

When I was at my heaviest was a few years back now! I was weighing around 80kg until November last year I did a cycle of Anavar and went up to 88kg but with a decrease in bf%. I was at around 19% this time last year.

What are your views on training abs religiously? Also what're your views on timing of eating? I.e carbs after certain time... Heard various things in this!


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## Stef92 (Apr 16, 2015)

Smitch said:


> Jesus, if I trained 10 times a week and ate what you ate there'd be nothing left of me.
> 
> Something doesn't add up mate, maybe not calculating you cals correctly?
> 
> I don't count calories, but if I was trying to lose weight/fat and it wasn't working I'd just eat less.


I use my fitness pal religiously and make all my own food each and every week weighing everything to the gram so as far as calculating my calorie intake and macro intake I think I'm quite accurate on that one.


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## Stef92 (Apr 16, 2015)

Ultrasonic said:


> Different people do better with different carb/fat ratios so experiment - there is no 'perfect' optimal diet that everyone should follow. 40/30/30 wouldn't be a crazy thing to try though, but if you find it harder to stick to and/or it gives poorer results, try something else. I wouldn't worry too much about sugar, other than in that more complex carbs are likely to keep you feeling fuller for longer.
> 
> Smitch does have a point that it is surprising for someone your size and with your activity levels to be struggling to lose weight on 2100 kcal per day. But if you are counting everything properly, your only option is to drop calories lower.
> 
> How much were you eating before you started your cut out of interest?


Will continue on 40/40/20 for the next couple weeks till I get my next analysis done and see how I have got on. When I weighted around 80kg around a year back now I maintained my weight but dropped around 7% body fat in 6 months. I then towards the end of last year did a course of var and took me up to 88kg none of which (in my opinion!) was fat as I remained quite lean so was happy with that. I've always ate around 2000 kcal so I guess my body is use to it? When I used to weigh my heaviest it was many years ago now so couldn't really tell you calorie intake if I'm honest!

What are your guys opinions on timing of eating? I.e don't eat carbs after certain time? I've read so much into this and receive different answers. I watch a lot of Layne Norton's logs and he says it's a myth.. But do I take what he says as gospel?


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

If it helps, here is an article where Layne explains why he says late night carb eating isn't a problem:

Carbs At Night: Fat Loss Killer Or Imaginary Boogeyman? - Bodybuilding.com

I wouldn't take everything Layne (or anyone else) says as Gospel, but personally I'm inclined to believe him here. I've not seen any compelling counter-argument. Also, even if late night carbs were more likely to be stored as fat, as you are in a calorie deficit it shouldn't matter anyway.

Lots of people have different views on carb timing. When cutting I make sure I have more of my carbs pre and to a lesser extent post workout, although I'm not going to say this definitely optimal. If you get to the state where your muscles run out of glycogen during a workout there is some evidence that this can increase catabolism, so there is some logic behind pre-workout carbs. If they give you more energy to workout harder then this is also a good thing.

The single biggest factor is definitely total calorie consumption though, and anything else is very much a secondary concern.


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## nitricdave (Dec 12, 2014)

I started a thread recently covering adaptation to deficit http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/losing-weight/293799-adaptation-calorie-defecit-avoid.html that thread is ongoing with open questions about how much the metabolism slows down but it sounds from what I've read that's what's going on (?) .. Your tdee may be lower than you think.

Check out intermediate fasting basic style.. Skipping breakfast also.. Relates to how hormones effect abdominal fat. Might be of some use.

Intermittent fasting diet for fat loss, muscle gain and health: Intermittent Fasting and Stubborn Body Fat


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

nitricdave said:


> Intermittent fasting diet for fat loss, muscle gain and health: Intermittent Fasting and Stubborn Body Fat


An interesting article, but if you read the 20 June Content Update section you'll note that the author says this sort of strategy is only necessary for people who already have a significantly lower body fat than the OP. Elsewhere he also acknowledges that IF is not proven to be any better than simply maintaining a calorie deficit. It is a strategy to consider/try though.


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## nitricdave (Dec 12, 2014)

Ultrasonic said:


> An interesting article, but if you read the 20 June Content Update section you'll note that the author says this sort of strategy is only necessary for people who already have a significantly lower body fat than the OP. Elsewhere he also acknowledges that IF is not proven to be any better than simply maintaining a calorie deficit. It is a strategy to consider/try though.


Agreed..op says 13% so not far off? However in terms of the hormonal benefit of fasting to target abdomen versus say intramuscular thigh etc there may be some merit if the body resists burning abdomen fat. The weight loss with IF versus straight deficit may be the same but where it burns off might be different or do I misunderstand and above a certain body fat the hormone manipulation has no effect on abdomen ?


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

nitricdave said:


> Agreed..op says 13% so not far off?


I would suggest that figure is in doubt, and that the abdominal skinfold measurement of 19 mm suggests we're some way off the stubborn lower abodominal fat stage here.



> However in terms of the hormonal benefit of fasting to target abdomen versus say intramuscular thigh etc there may be some merit if the body resists burning abdomen fat. The weight loss with IF versus straight deficit may be the same but where it burns off might be different or do I misunderstand and above a certain body fat the hormone manipulation has no effect on abdomen ?


I know nothing more than having read the article you posted. Its thesis however was that IF may be of use in targeting stubborn fat, due to a difference in the ratio of a particular type of receptor. My reading of the article is that for people with higher body fat levels, the vast majority of what needs to be lost is normal (non-stubborn) fat and so there is little point worrying about trying to target a small minority of stubborn fat. The whole article is largely speculaton, supported to a small degree by anecdotal evidence provided by the author. The latter is however for cases of already lean clients. Primarily though, the author who has really looked into this doesn't think it's worth bothering with IF in individuals with higher body fat levels.

Some people love IF and do very well on it. My natural inclination is to keep diets as simple as possible, primarily to make it easier for people to stick to long term. I agree with you that IF is an interesting strategy for the OP to consider though.


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## Stef92 (Apr 16, 2015)

Ultrasonic said:


> I would suggest that figure is in doubt, and that the abdominal skinfold measurement of 19 mm suggests we're some way off the stubborn lower abodominal fat stage here..


In your opinion what is an average mm of fat around the ab area so that the abs are visible ?

Training abs religiously everyday so they're there when this last bit does go.. Even though people do say don't train them till fat is gone I see no harm in it!


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## Stef92 (Apr 16, 2015)

nitricdave said:


> I started a thread recently covering adaptation to deficit http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/losing-weight/293799-adaptation-calorie-defecit-avoid.html that thread is ongoing with open questions about how much the metabolism slows down but it sounds from what I've read that's what's going on (?) .. Your tdee may be lower than you think.
> 
> Check out intermediate fasting basic style.. Skipping breakfast also.. Relates to how hormones effect abdominal fat. Might be of some use.
> 
> Intermittent fasting diet for fat loss, muscle gain and health: Intermittent Fasting and Stubborn Body Fat


Thanks for the info, will have a read into it and see if it's something I'll look into doing. Have you done or know anyone who has IF before? If so what were the results achieved ?


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Stef92 said:


> In your opinion what is an average mm of fat around the ab area so that the abs are visible ?


I have absolutely no idea what is average. For me they start to show at around 5 mm, but someone with chunkier abs would start to see them sooner.


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## Stef92 (Apr 16, 2015)

Ultrasonic said:


> I have absolutely no idea what is average. For me they start to show at around 5 mm, but someone with chunkier abs would start to see them sooner.


What's your bf? Weigh height and calorie intake out of curiosity


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## saxondale (Nov 11, 2012)

Have you gota more recent picture?


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Stef92 said:


> What's your bf?


I have no real idea to be honest. I don't trust the numbers on the chart that came with my calipers at all (they seem too low), and I've never been bothered to try to get any other measurement done. I just use calipers to track progress, and ulitmately just care what I look like not what by body fat percentage is.


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## Stef92 (Apr 16, 2015)

saxondale said:


> Have you gota more recent picture?


 took this yesterday... Ignore the sun burn...


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## Stef92 (Apr 16, 2015)

Ultrasonic said:


> I have no real idea to be honest. I don't trust the numbers on the chart that came with my calipers at all (they seem too low), and I've never been bothered to try to get any other measurement done. I just use calipers to track progress, and ulitmately just care what I look like not what by body fat percentage is.


I guess for someone who is already happy and content with their physique currently it's a much better way of looking at it, although in my case I am looking to improve mine.

I want to drop some fat, and once dropped gradually start to increase my calorie intake so my metabolism isn't set in the lower 2000 kcal amount. My main worry is dropping my calories too low (1800?) and then my body getting too used too that? I will drop down to 2000kcal from next week with a 1g per 1lbs ofbodyweight for protein and carbs and then 0.20 per 1 lbs of body weight on fat. See how j get on with that for a few weeks and then may introduce carb cycling.

Looking at the picture above what's your first initial thought on bf%?


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## saxondale (Nov 11, 2012)

Stef92 said:


> View attachment 170225
> took this yesterday... Ignore the sun burn...


Ok, your not 13% mate. Keep at it though.

Edit - go down to as little as 1800 cals mate.


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## TELBOR (Feb 20, 2012)

I wouldn't bother chasing abs at the moment, nor what the calipers say.

You don't have enough mass imo to cut mate, you aren't "fat".

Go back to maintenance cals and start doing some heavy ab work


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## Stef92 (Apr 16, 2015)

R0BLET said:


> I wouldn't bother chasing abs at the moment, nor what the calipers say.
> 
> You don't have enough mass imo to cut mate, you aren't "fat".
> 
> Go back to maintenance cals and start doing some heavy ab work


I don't want to get too massive I'd rather cut up at the moment so I have trimmed down, I am going travelling in November so my main goal for then is to get rid of this last bit of fat.. What do you mean by maintenance cals?


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## Stef92 (Apr 16, 2015)

saxondale said:


> Ok, your not 13% mate. Keep at it though.
> 
> Edit - go down to as little as 1800 cals mate.


If j go down to as little at 1800 when I get to my goal and I start gradually increasing am I likely to just put the fat back on?


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## saxondale (Nov 11, 2012)

Stef92 said:


> If j go down to as little at 1800 when I get to my goal and I start gradually increasing am I likely to just put the fat back on?


Good question, eat around maintenance and you shouldnt.


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## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

I'm 90kg,5ft 11. Dunno what bf but fairly lean.

I'm getting between 2000-2200 calories a day,protein just over 200g and leaning out nicely.


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## Stef92 (Apr 16, 2015)

saxondale said:


> Good question, eat around maintenance and you shouldnt.


What does maintenance cals mean? Just the amount of cals that you need to maintain what you currently have ?


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## Stef92 (Apr 16, 2015)

FelonE said:


> I'm 90kg,5ft 11. Dunno what bf but fairly lean.
> 
> I'm getting between 2000-2200 calories a day,protein just over 200g and leaning out nicely.


 Thanks for that bud .. What about carbs and fats ?


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## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

Stef92 said:


> Thanks for that bud .. What about carbs and fats ?


Carbs around 245,fats 40


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## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

Pic from today


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## saxondale (Nov 11, 2012)

Stef92 said:


> What does maintenance cals mean? Just the amount of cals that you need to maintain what you currently have ?


Yep


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## Pancake' (Aug 30, 2012)

FelonE said:


> Pic from today


Leaning out really well mate. well done!


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## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

Starz said:


> Leaning out really well mate. well done!


Thanks mate. 5 days in to my cut lol.


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## Stef92 (Apr 16, 2015)

FelonE said:


> Carbs around 245,fats 40


I'm gonna reduce to 1900 based on what you've said mate and have protein and carbs around 180/190 and fats no more than 40.. Do you do any cardio ? What kind of weight training do you do?

Good shape there mate hats off to ya!


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## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

Stef92 said:


> I'm gonna reduce to 1900 based on what you've said mate and have protein and carbs around 180/190 and fats no more than 40.. Do you do any cardio ? What kind of weight training do you do?
> 
> Good shape there mate hats off to ya!


 Cheers mate.No I don't do cardio mate. I've got a fast metabolism though and I'm not natty.

Are you on anything?

I do a 4 day split of upper/lower/upper/lower.


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## Stef92 (Apr 16, 2015)

FelonE said:


> Cheers mate.No I don't do cardio mate. I've got a fast metabolism though and I'm not natty.
> 
> Are you on anything?
> 
> I do a 4 day split of upper/lower/upper/lower.


I started my second 2 weeks on today of Clen.. Tried it before ? What are you on?

Ah okay, chest and back then shoulders and arms for upper? How do you do your lower ?


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## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

Stef92 said:


> I started my second 2 weeks on today of Clen.. Tried it before ? What are you on?
> 
> Ah okay, chest and back then shoulders and arms for upper? How do you do your lower ?


I'm on 500mg test/300mg tren/210mg mast/20mg winny/50mcg T3.

I'm basically natty lol

Upper

Bench

Incline bench

Dips

Seated rows

Pulldowns

Rackpulls

Db shoulder press

Lat raises

Rear delts

Tricep pushdown

Curls

Lower

Squats

Legpress

Db lunges

Leg ext

Ham curls

Seated calf raise

Standing calf raise

Change a few moves but basically this twice a week


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## Stef92 (Apr 16, 2015)

FelonE said:


> I'm on 500mg test/300mg tren/210mg mast/20mg winny/50mcg T3.
> 
> I'm basically natty lol
> 
> ...


Sh1te!! You must spend hours in the gym?! How many sets and reps per move? Ps.. Yeah defo 100% natty haha!!


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## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

Stef92 said:


> Sh1te!! You must spend hours in the gym?! How many sets and reps per move? Ps.. Yeah defo 100% natty haha!!


Takes about an hour- an hour and a half.

4 sets of 5-8 reps,about a minute between sets.

No fvcking about lol


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## Stef92 (Apr 16, 2015)

FelonE said:


> Takes about an hour- an hour and a half.
> 
> 4 sets of 5-8 reps,about a minute between sets.
> 
> No fvcking about lol


Fair play bud. Well it's working for you keep it up!


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## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

Stef92 said:


> Fair play bud. Well it's working for you keep it up!


Cheers mate.


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## TELBOR (Feb 20, 2012)

Stef92 said:


> I don't want to get too massive I'd rather cut up at the moment so I have trimmed down, I am going travelling in November so my main goal for then is to get rid of this last bit of fat.. What do you mean by maintenance cals?


"I don't want to get too massive" - this I body building and nobody ever gets "too massive" you reach and weight and you want more.

Maintenance cals..... Surely you know this if you're in a calorie deficit to drop BF?


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