# Getting specifics on Keto diets



## dudeson (May 8, 2007)

Ok so I have been reading all over here about keto diets. That sticky was awesome, but I just have more questions, in general about the diet and specifically towards my own diet. I posted on there a question about cardio. Pscarb said to do more solid workouts, ex: walking 40 min. Now I have been doing cardio everyday, sometimes twice a day, and lifting at night. A few things that I would like to know, especially because I spent $180 on groceries yesterday, is...

Cardio; why not higher intensity?

Food, I think I have a pretty good grasp on what to eat, but to be honest, I don't think I could even eat as much food as pscarb suggested in some of the example diets. Is this a problem as long as I'm eating the right foods?

How many grams of fat do I need to be getting?

Minimum and maximum?

How about my lifting; should I be hitting it hard, doing high reps with lots of sets, doing push pull kind of workouts or split training?

Also, my final question: I have winstrol, Tbol, and clen, and I was wondering where these should fit in? I will probably hold off on the winny and tbol, but I have been using the clen for about 2 weeks now, and I think I will try ECA in the next few days when I'm off it. When I first tried the clen I had a friend whol told me how to use it, I went 5 weeks, cycled it up, then just dropped it. For about a week I slept a min. of 15 hours a day due to the rebound. It seems like the two weeks on and off would be best. My whole teen adult life I have always been the biggest and stronges out of all of my friends. I have always been the big guy with the most bulk, but also with a decent amount of fat, never comfortable with my shirt off. I have spent years lifting and excercising, and now I'm 23 and I would like to have people say even once that I was their muscular friend, rather than a bulky one. Thanks for any advice, and I know this thread is already dragging on...... :beer:


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

So, you are on a keto diet?

You want to do a cycle?

You are asking about workout intensity?

Bro, do you want to cut, lose bodyfat?


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## Lost Soul (Apr 5, 2008)

> Ok so I have been reading all over here about keto diets.


All the questions below should then be answered 



> That sticky was awesome, but I just have more questions, in general about the diet and specifically towards my own diet. I posted on there a question about cardio. Pscarb said to do more solid workouts, ex: walking 40 min. Now I have been doing cardio everyday, sometimes twice a day, and lifting at night. A few things that I would like to know, especially because I spent $180 on groceries yesterday, is...
> 
> Cardio; why not higher intensity?


Can do it but you wiull find it hard, I would certainly leave it out whilst you are trying to establish the state of ketosis. There is a requirement for carbohydrates when doing intense cardio and ketones or fat are not a great substrate to be doing this. other may say HIIT is fine, i beg to differ from science, logic and experience



> Food, I think I have a pretty good grasp on what to eat, but to be honest, I don't think I could even eat as much food as pscarb suggested in some of the example diets. Is this a problem as long as I'm eating the right foods?
> 
> How many grams of fat do I need to be getting?
> 
> Minimum and maximum?


I assume you are cutting?

You cannot bend the laws of thermondynamics regardless of what mr atkins said about eating as much as you want as long as it wasnt carbs.

If your TDEE is 2500 and you eat 3000 calories a day you will add weight...period

Now the answer to your question is how are you structring your diet? CKD or TKD?

now protein is ~1gram per pound of body fat once in ketosis, fat is enough to take you vback up to a point where metabo.ic slow down does not occur YET you are still hypocaloric. Work that out yourself 

carbs once in letosis have to ideally be below 100g per day if not lower

remember you have to be hypocaloric and too much protein is not ideal either to stay in ketosis, top up calories beyond your 1gram per lb with fats



> How about my lifting; should I be hitting it hard, doing high reps with lots of sets, doing push pull kind of workouts or split training?


high reps does not get you cut, lift the way you were and decide how to structure your carb intake whether it be a CKD like body opus or TKD where you eat carbs around training



> Also, my final question: I have winstrol, Tbol, and clen, and I was wondering where these should fit in? I will probably hold off on the winny and tbol, but I have been using the clen for about 2 weeks now, and I think I will try ECA in the next few days when I'm off it. When I first tried the clen I had a friend whol told me how to use it, I went 5 weeks, cycled it up, then just dropped it. For about a week I slept a min. of 15 hours a day due to the rebound. It seems like the two weeks on and off would be best. My whole teen adult life I have always been the biggest and stronges out of all of my friends. I have always been the big guy with the most bulk, but also with a decent amount of fat, never comfortable with my shirt off. I have spent years lifting and excercising, and now I'm 23 and I would like to have people say even once that I was their muscular friend, rather than a bulky one. Thanks for any advice, and I know this thread is already dragging on


gear has nothing to do with ketosis and TB it sounds like this can be scrapped from your plans.

*NOW NOW NOW*

Ketogenic diets are not required to get lean and they do not suit everybody. When you get them wrong they are sh1te and you will lose muscle, feel like sh1te and lift like a puff.

Now all you need to do is get in a caloried deficit and not go too low

If you know what you are doing and your metabolism suits keto diets do the.

If you dont, and with all due respect i dont think you do, i dont advise muddling your way through one just because it sounds good


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Yah, some fair well on keto diets and some dont.

There are problems associated with keto diets.

I love them personally, but only for about 6 weeks then they tend to stall, I belive this has to do with thyroid more than anything else.

There are modifications of keto diets that work too.

I tend to feel good on them and hardly ever hungry once in ketosis.

But they are not for everyone.


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## dudeson (May 8, 2007)

hackskii said:


> Yah, some fair well on keto diets and some dont.
> 
> There are problems associated with keto diets.
> 
> ...


ok, so yes I am trying to cut, I have always just lifted and have a fair amount of muscle, and for once it would be nice to look more cut and show off that hard work,

I'm not even worried about a cycle right now, I was more hoping to try another cycle once I got my body fat a lot lower and wasn't dieting so stricktly, I did however plan on still cycling in some clen every few weeks.

I think I was missunderstood about what I said about not being able to eat as much as pscarb suggested. I meant that I just cant' eat all that food, it's just too much. Even though I'm a pretty big guy, I have never really been able to eat like one.

I am on a caloric defecit right now, and I have been getting anywhere from 30 to 60 grams of carbs for about a week now, I'm taking in about 1700 cal./day. Don't know if I am in ketosis, I feel kind of light headed, a fair amount of time, and my lifts have gone down a little, but I read up more and decided to just keep pounding out my same routines as far as lifting goes, and I have been trying to go for longer periods of time doing cardio, a little lower intensity, and I have dropped about 5 lbs, I'm sure most of it's water.

I never feel hungry, but also that's because I eat or snack every 2 hours, with tons of water, so I'm always full. I have natty pb, couple times a day, cashews, and fish oil,lots of chicken and eggs, and some salmon, maybe a little cottage cheese. Couple of servings of a brocolli, califlour, and carrot mix. And a Green salad every other day, mostly I enjoy the vegies more than salad.



> now protein is ~1gram per pound of body fat once in ketosis, fat is enough to take you vback up to a point where metabo.ic slow down does not occur YET you are still hypocaloric. Work that out yourself
> 
> carbs once in letosis have to ideally be below 100g per day if not lower
> 
> remember you have to be hypocaloric and too much protein is not ideal either to stay in ketosis, top up calories beyond your 1gram per lb with fats


1 gram per lb of body fat? Is that a day, I was measured and have about 45 lbs of bodyfat, does that mean I should only be getting 45 grams of protein?

And, does it seem like what I said above is enough fats?

Pscarb said to have an hour once a week to just sit down and eat a bunch of carbs, is this a good idea? Is this to shock the body, or just to appease my carb cravings, because if it wont help I wont do it.

Thanks for replying, this is very important to me and I want to do it right, and I trust what you guys are saying so thanks.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

I remember on my keto diet I ate cheese, meats, hell even bacon, I lost well, I didnt count as there was a deficit and I was losing almost about 3 pounds a week, so I didnt modify anything.

I am sure I was eating more than 45 grams of protein a day, I was almost eating that in eggs alone.....lol

I cant eat huge amounts of food anymore.......

You can eat carbs during certain refeed days, generally it would be the last two meals and those meals will be low in protein and fats.


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## dudeson (May 8, 2007)

Really!? The last two, I just assumed that the least damaging time (towards my diet goals) would be like one meal in the morning so I had a chance to work some of those carbs off throughout the day, but the last two huh? SHOULD I do this? Will it be beneficial for me, or is just so I don't crave carbs?

And if I should do this, is two meals better or one, because I don't NEED two, but it that's the best thing to do then I will.

And I do have to say, it's kind of nice being able to eat very little and still feel satisfied, I feel very euphoric lately, almost buzzed. And, I had a shot of vodka last night and normally one shot would do nothing, but I was about instantly buzzed!


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## Tall (Aug 14, 2007)

Lost Soul said:


> All the questions below should then be answered
> 
> Can do it but you wiull find it hard, I would certainly leave it out whilst you are trying to establish the state of ketosis. There is a requirement for carbohydrates when doing intense cardio and ketones or fat are not a great substrate to be doing this. other may say HIIT is fine, i beg to differ from science, logic and experience
> 
> ...


Thermodynamics doesn't really apply to diets I'm afraid, as I'm sure you know all calories are not equal - fast acting vs slow acting carbohydrates, carbs which fill muscle rather than liver glycogen, MCTs vs other fats etc etc

Studys have shown (Response of body weight to a low carbohydrate, high fat diet in normal and obese subjects, H. Kasper 1, H. Thiel , and M. Ehl) that consumption of double TDEE from a ketogenic diet will result in minimal fat storage. If you did this using carbs odds are you'd find lipid storage in the adipose tissue occuring rather quickly.

However on a keto diet you can cut calories quite sharply with a better sense of well being than on a standard hypocaloric diet (Nutrient Intake of Subjects on Low Carbohydrate Diet Used in Treatment of Obesity, ANNE L. STOCK and JOHN YUDKIN )

Personally I beleive catabolism to be somewhat overstated on keto diets - I've not seen any scientific evidence, rather it seems to come from inexperienced board members who don't realise how fat they are initially or are not utilising a weekly refeed to refuel muscle glycogen stores and end up looking 'flat'.

My personal thoughts are this (based on my personal experience, and experiences of people I've trained) - for a long term keto diet to work along side training a combination of approaches needs to be used in order to elicit the desired results. I personally beleive that a weekly refeed is required to reset leptin levels, and that for best performance carbs should be consumed pre workout.

I've been running this approach for a while now, and using strength as a measure of performance my lifts have gone up in the range of 20%-30% while continuing to get leaner.

In addition, I've tested just how badly cheating affects performance / size - as anecdotally it's been claimed if you start the diet and then fail to stick to it part of the way thorugh you will be badly affected - this I do not beleive to be the case, or as a very minimum is overstated.

The main issue however is peoples ability to stick to the diet. Given that carbs are somewhat 'addictive', most people find a shift to a keto diet hard to stick to.

I'd certainly give a keto a go (combination of TKD+CKD) and see how you get on.


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## Lost Soul (Apr 5, 2008)

TH&S said:


> Thermodynamics doesn't really apply to diets I'm afraid, as I'm sure you know all calories are not equal - fast acting vs slow acting carbohydrates, carbs which fill muscle rather than liver glycogen, MCTs vs other fats etc etc


Are you suggesting law number 2 doesnt apply? what you are suggesting is true, the TEF and insulin rewsponse of foods differs but realistically it doesnt allow for rule number two to be abused significantly...in fact i think lyle McD stated this in his original book with SOME data to back it up



> However on a keto diet you can cut calories quite sharply with a better sense of well being than on a standard hypocaloric diet (Nutrient Intake of Subjects on Low Carbohydrate Diet Used in Treatment of Obesity, ANNE L. STOCK and JOHN YUDKIN )
> 
> Personally I beleive catabolism to be somewhat overstated on keto diets - I've not seen any scientific evidence, rather it seems to come from inexperienced board members who don't realise how fat they are initially or are not utilising a weekly refeed to refuel muscle glycogen stores and end up looking 'flat'.


Agree if they do become ketogenic rather than not. ketones are protein sparing but some dont reach ketosis and shed muscle not just glycogen. So get in a state of ketosis and you are correct, dont make it on a low carb diet and up the cardio and you lose it

This is why the switch to lowered protein, higher fats proves better than higher protein and fcuk all else



> My personal thoughts are this (based on my personal experience, and experiences of people I've trained) - for a long term keto diet to work along side training a combination of approaches needs to be used in order to elicit the desired results. I personally beleive that a weekly refeed is required to reset leptin levels, and that for best performance carbs should be consumed pre workout.
> 
> I've been running this approach for a while now, and using strength as a measure of performance my lifts have gone up in the range of 20%-30% while continuing to get leaner.
> 
> ...


Agree again, dont get me wrong, i like keto diets when:

1 they are structured well

2 adhered to

3 the persons metabolism suits them

Mine doesnt, period and this is from anecdotal evidence plus some testing (for what its worth)

I love ketogenic diets and believe many can actually live on TKD and to some extent CKDs although the former is easier

The sedentry lifestyle in the western world and an RER to suit is more than logical to take on a keto diet.

My issues with the original poster were the fact that:

-The knowledge didnt seem to be there

-It was a case of "that looks good, i will have go" (yet if you or i controlled that diet it may be well)

-The adherence to a KD is more of an issue for people

-The fine line between inducing ketosis and having a sh1te low carb diet is very fine and hard to monitor


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## dudeson (May 8, 2007)

Ok, so can we get some opinions on weekly refeeds? What would be some ideal foods to eat,

When?

How much?

I went a full 6 days of about 30 to 60 grams of carbs, if that. And today for lunch I had a pizza, and a long awaited beer.



> You can eat carbs during certain refeed days, generally it would be the last two meals and those meals will be low in protein and fats.


oops, I know the pizza has a good deal of fat, and protein, and sugar. Would it have been better to maybe opt for a big thing of garlic bread. The pizza made me sick as a dog, I don't know if I ate too much, but I felt like I was going to hurl and I started sweating, I took a nap for 3 hours, but on the plus side, I did chest tonight as I figured the extra carb intake would be a nice boost for some heavy pressing, and it WAS! I did weights that I haven't done in 6 months, and for my normal rep range too!

I feel pretty good on this diet, my mood is improving, that could just be because I feel better about myself lately because I've been working so hard. My veins are popping like crazy, my forearms are like the nile river and I'm really seeing some veins in my calves! Ya, keep posting up advice guys!

__________________


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

TH&S said:


> Thermodynamics doesn't really apply to diets I'm afraid, as I'm sure you know all calories are not equal - fast acting vs slow acting carbohydrates, carbs which fill muscle rather than liver glycogen, MCTs vs other fats etc etc


More here than just diffrent GI carbs.

Protein takes more fuel to digest than lets say fats.

Fiber as well, 35 grams of fiber takes about 250 calories to try to break that down.

All calories are not created equal in the digestion of things.

I too agree that keto diets are not as catabolic as some suggest.

I didnt lose overall strength but I did lose stamina when on a keto diet.

In the early 1900's they used to treat epilepsy with ketogenic diets, they worked very well. With the introduction of anti-seizure medications now, keto diets are only used when the anti-seizure medications alone won't work. Many studies have been done on epilepsy and keto diets where the subjects were on the keto diets for years to control seizures, with no specific health effects.


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## Lost Soul (Apr 5, 2008)

They are not catabolic scott, people make them catabolic by not getting into ketosis through high protein low fat and low carb combinations


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Lost Soul said:


> They are not catabolic scott, people make them catabolic by not getting into ketosis through high protein low fat and low carb combinations


There are some on the boards that suggest it is catabolic due to glycogen stores and loss of glycogen compromising training.

I think this is why they think they are catabolic.

But as much as the brain loves carbs, it also loves ketones.

I feel the biggest benefits from keto diets is the ability to not overfeed on them. When I am on them they work well and keep my appetite at bay.

When I eat carbs, some serious overfeeding can happen.

I have read some good studies on keto diets.

I have that book by Lyle McDowel(sp) on keto diets.

I dont mind sharing either.....lol


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## dudeson (May 8, 2007)

well, it seems you guys are more intent upon showing off knowledge rather than answering some specific questions, maybe I'll just go get that book then.


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## Lost Soul (Apr 5, 2008)

Go fcuk yourself and learn some manners

I spent quite a while this morning offering help


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Oh my, I have a e-book on keotgenic diets that is 323 pages that is pretty detailed if you like?

Basic ketogenic diet is like this.

No more than 30 grams of carbs a day to get into ketosis.

Eat as much fat and protein as you like.

That pretty much is the gist of it.

I know that sounds too easy, but in about 3 days you will be in ketosis and this can be varified using keto strips with urination.

Remember even nuts have carbs in them.

Choose macadamia nuts if you are going to eat nuts as they have the higest fat of any nut @ 1 gram each.

If you get constipated, take psyllium seed husks...........


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## Jimmy1 (Aug 14, 2003)

i ate 50g carbs a day (all at beakfast) for 6 weeks when trying to kill the candida fungus i have

all i remember of ketosis was the unbearable dizziness....it came unwarned at the most inconvenient times...like when driving etc

i was dropping 4-6lbs a week so i increased my carbs to around 100g split 3 meals

i STAYED in ketosis and the dizzy spells stayed...i still lost weight but around 1-2lbs a week

the best thing i remember is feeling FANTASTIC all the time (appart from the dizziness)

much nicer than any other diet i have done before...and much easier to stick to

but i lost a ton of muscle

prob due to me not wanting to eat much protein/fat as its so boring

prob a kcal defecit rather than catabolic


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## dudeson (May 8, 2007)

Ya, I definately feel, pretty good, a little dizzy this morning, but does anyone have any ideas on the proper re-feed foods? I don't want to eat the wrong things.


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## Jimmy1 (Aug 14, 2003)

not an expert on keto diets , sorry

i would guess nothing processed

maybe fruit/veg/meat/pultry/potato

i liked seed mixes like pine/soy/seasame/pumpkin etc

try stay off dairy/bread/junk etc


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## Tall (Aug 14, 2007)

dudeson said:


> well, it seems you guys are more intent upon showing off knowledge rather than answering some specific questions, maybe I'll just go get that book then.


Amigo if you took the time to read and listen you would see that what is being discussed has wider implications than your specific case.

You are in the middle of what is currently a well mannered debate over information which can help both you and other people.

Sorry if you wanted instant gratification and we were unable to offer it - perhaps you might be better suited to a pizza and a quick hand shandy over Lisa Riley's old You've Been Framed videos?


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## Tall (Aug 14, 2007)

Lost Soul said:


> Are you suggesting law number 2 doesnt apply? what you are suggesting is true, the TEF and insulin rewsponse of foods differs but realistically it doesnt allow for rule number two to be abused significantly...in fact i think lyle McD stated this in his original book with SOME data to back it up


Ola. Sorry I'm in a rush today so I won't be as wordy as usual.

Have a read of this: http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=506782

It says it better than I can.



Lost Soul said:


> Agree if they do become ketogenic rather than not. ketones are protein sparing but some dont reach ketosis and shed muscle not just glycogen. So get in a state of ketosis and you are correct, dont make it on a low carb diet and up the cardio and you lose it
> 
> This is why the switch to lowered protein, higher fats proves better than higher protein and fcuk all else


A 'ketogenic' diet which doesn't get you into ketosis isn't really a ketogenic diet. Its just a crap one. Its a bit like someone saying they are cutting when they are having a Pizza Hut for Lunch EOD - they can label their diet what they like, but it doesn't make it true.

However I will agree that you need to have your head switched on for a keto diet.



Lost Soul said:


> Agree again, dont get me wrong, i like keto diets when:
> 
> 1 they are structured well
> 
> ...


Agree with alot of the above.

Read the study, it's quite a good read.

I had anticipated your question by the way, and so for the purpose of making the thread interesting had phrased my statement in such a way that you would quote the second law (thankfully without the symbols...) as I knew I had a study kicking around on it. :innocent:


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

One problem with a ketogenic diet is the fact that there are varying degrees of ketosis.

I find it almost impossible to get into ketosis, but there is always trace ketones when on a ketogenic diet.

This is varified using keto strips.

My buddy can eat more carbs then me and end up with more ketones than myself, everyone is diffrent in this regard.

The diet still works, just one has more ketones than the other.

A ketogenic diet is basicly a diet that is low in carbs, and high in fats and protein.

The carbs can and probably should come from fiberous vegetables.

There are other problems never discussed with a keto diet like acid ashing.


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## Tall (Aug 14, 2007)

hackskii said:


> One problem with a ketogenic diet is the fact that there are varying degrees of ketosis.
> 
> I find it almost impossible to get into ketosis, but there is always trace ketones when on a ketogenic diet.
> 
> ...


There are differing degrees of ketosis in terms of how many ketones are being made from fat, but I find it easy to refer to it as a binary state - you are either in ketosis or you aren't - you are either using ketones as the primary fuel source or you are using glucose.

There are differing degrees of oxidisation of fat.

Ketone sticks only show you how many ketones are being excreted. From memory you are only excreting the ones which aren't used.

You can get out of ketosis, and then back in quite quickly if you body becomes efficient at doing so. One way is via MCTs.

One thing which is often missed on some of the keto diets on the web is green veg. Green veg has links to improved CV function and nitrogen balance - but Id need to dig the details out on the last one.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Ok, then how come weight loss is the same even though both parties are using ketones at different values?

If you are in a ketosis state then you are in ketosis regardless if you can determine this with regards to keto strips or not........

Keto diets are ketogenic, regardless if you can determine them or not.

They do work.

Ketosis for the most part uses fat as fuel in the body.

Hey TH&S, have you ever done a ketogenic diet?

I have, and I gotta say they work well.......

If you were on one, what was your outcome?

I can tell you mine if you like.

First of all, I lost more bodyfat per pound of weight loss than inches on my stomach.

Did you find this out yourself?

I have no problem sharing my results from my own personal experiences.

Do I need some validation from a pubmed study?

Does this discredit me due to no studies?

Dude, there is more going on than what you suggest.

Id love to break it down if you like.

But drop the studies as they bore me.

This is a good debate, but drop the studies as this is real world, if you want to take something from this then please feel free to debate with first hand information and not studies.

I wont get into that realm with you as you are smarter than me in that field.

I have done keto diets, I have seen many folks with them, I have seen much in regards to their success...........

There is more here than calorie in and calorie out.

If you like I can break that all down for you if you like..


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## dudeson (May 8, 2007)

> Sorry if you wanted instant gratification and we were unable to offer it - perhaps you might be better suited to a pizza and a quick hand shandy over Lisa Riley's old You've Been Framed videos?


Actually that does sound nice! Anywho it seems those keto strips are fairly hard to come by around these parts. I could probably order them, but it seems that maybe since I am working out fairly vigorously then maybe they wouldn't register on the strips anyway.

Is there any way to tell for sure if I'm in ketosis without the strips, it seems the dizziness or lightheadedness is common, and I am trying to stick to about 30 grams of carbs ED, and have dropped about 4-5lbs, and I feel pretty euphoric lately. I would say from what people have said, and I'm being pretty strict about the diet, then I am but not sure.


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## Lost Soul (Apr 5, 2008)

TH&S said:


> Amigo if you took the time to read and listen you would see that what is being discussed has wider implications than your specific case.
> 
> You are in the middle of what is currently a well mannered debate over information which can help both you and other people.
> 
> Sorry if you wanted instant gratification and we were unable to offer it - perhaps you might be better suited to a pizza and a quick hand shandy over Lisa Riley's old You've Been Framed videos?


Yes which makes the PM I got a little rich and even more a case of 'why the fcuk don't you actually do some leg work yourself'

here it is:

*hey, if you don't know the answers to my questions, that's fine, just say so. I asked some very specific questions, several times, and you just hijacked a thread just to flex your infinate knowledge on keto. I was just trying to get some help, and ya that's rich on the whole *

*manners thing*

so thanks for that dudeson.

Anyway........



TH&S said:


> Ola. Sorry I'm in a rush today so I won't be as wordy as usual.
> 
> Have a read of this: http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=506782
> 
> ...


I think I agree with that study and my point on a crap diet, yes people think removing carbs = ketosis automatically.....



TH&S said:


> There are differing degrees of ketosis in terms of how many ketones are being made from fat, but I find it easy to refer to it as a binary state - you are either in ketosis or you aren't - you are either using ketones as the primary fuel source or you are using glucose.
> 
> There are differing degrees of oxidisation of fat.
> 
> ...


Indeed, there is also the issue of ketnemia Vs ketonuria and are people actually deeper in than they think but the reading is distorted by the levels of hydration in the testing. I think more seasoned users 'just know'

Which probably explains this



hackskii said:


> One problem with a ketogenic diet is the fact that there are varying degrees of ketosis.
> 
> I find it almost impossible to get into ketosis, but there is always trace ketones when on a ketogenic diet.
> 
> ...


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Sorry if I sounded harsh TH&S, that was not the way I wanted to come accross.

Keto diets have been very popular in the states for almost 40 years, lots of people do them with fantastic success, some can only lose weight this way.

I do have issues with them though.

I do feel that a ballanced diet would be the healthiest.


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## Lost Soul (Apr 5, 2008)

hackskii said:


> Sorry if I sounded harsh TH&S, that was not the way I wanted to come accross.
> 
> *Keto diets have been very popular in the states for almost 40 years, lots of people do them with fantastic success, some can only lose weight this way.*
> 
> ...


To what extent do you believe that is through self abuse, poor education and the culture?

Is this an end result of something that could have been avoided?


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## Jimmy1 (Aug 14, 2003)

Lost Soul said:


> I think I agree with that study and my point on a crap diet, yes people think removing carbs = ketosis automatically.....


i didnt use keto sticks so i cant be sure but all i know is when i started the diet i lost a constant 1-2lbs

but all of a sudden around the 4 week mark i dropped weight in a big way...around 4-6lbs in a week, which co-insided with real bad dizziness

i guessed it was ketosis

if it was, it was on 50g carbs every day at breakfast...but no other carbs at all appart from greens and salad


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Lost Soul said:


> To what extent do you believe that is through self abuse, poor education and the culture?
> 
> Is this an end result of something that could have been avoided?


I think the popularity of ketogenic diets really came from Dr. Atkins and his work.

They really became popular about 10 years ago.

I do feel that most of the obesity today is directed at processed foods, bad oils (Trans fats, hydrogenated oils, margarines, etc), and just bad information from the RDA. The food pyramid is a great example of how bad information gets perpetuated by those that are supposed to be in the know.

What a joke that one is.

All designed by the agricultural industry with little science backing it.

I don't want this to sound like some conspiracy or something&#8230;&#8230;lol

But just look at the young kids in the states, they are mostly fat, look like crap, and not very healthy.

More diabetes than ever, more cardiovascular disease than ever, more fast food places than ever, in our fast food, gotta have it now microwave society, there are many factors for obesity.

I kind of don't really understand the question.


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## Lost Soul (Apr 5, 2008)

Jimmy said:


> i didnt use keto sticks so i cant be sure but all i know is when i started the diet i lost a constant 1-2lbs
> 
> but all of a sudden around the 4 week mark i dropped weight in a big way...around 4-6lbs in a week, which co-insided with real bad dizziness
> 
> ...


Ketonuria is often thrown about by excessive urine. From the sounds of it you were not ketogenic as the brain loves ketones or carbs, anything in between and its unhappy. This doesnt mean you wont lose weight. If you are hypocaloric you dont have to be in ketosis to lose weight, its just better if you are either in ketosis or out and cycling/staggering carbs in terms of brain functioning, energy and test levels



hackskii said:


> I think the popularity of ketogenic diets really came from Dr. Atkins and his work.
> 
> They really became popular about 10 years ago.
> 
> ...


Yes you get the question and have answered it well. I am no good with conspiracy theories but would say many yanks have become insulin resistant as a result of lifestyle and diet through poor education, poor levels of activity and poor food choices as national dishes and convenience foods. This is why so many enjoy the low carb/keto lifestyle.

they could of course live without ketogenic diets but the adherence to those which contain carbs for many is harder


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

You hit the nail on the head bro.

More people than ever are becomming insulin resistant.


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## Tall (Aug 14, 2007)

hackskii said:


> Ok, then how come weight loss is the same even though both parties are using ketones at different values?
> 
> If you are in a ketosis state then you are in ketosis regardless if you can determine this with regards to keto strips or not........
> 
> ...


Hola.

Yes I've been running the Keto diet I presented earlier for a while - maybe 3 months or so. Sadly a number of issues have meant I haven't been able to stick to it 100%.

I think I've said it before on the keto diet, lifts all went up even at "sub-maintenance calories", dropped at least 2 inches on my waist, gained 2 inches on my chest and 1.5inches on my legs (48-34-29 if anyone is interested) with the top 2 sets of abs just about showing when dehydrated and tensed, 4 heads of the quads are visible, visible split in calves and hams, and hip dips showing, lost some condition during an off diet period recently but only perhaps 3 weeks away from where I was. (Mine was TKD+CKD)

The guy I train lost approx 14lbs of fat (we assume at least 8lbs of water on top) and then gained 8lbs of FFM (mainly muscle we beleive as he is a newbie, so was getting newbie gains) when fully decarbed. His lifts went up from nothing to 220D/170S/80B (His was CKD)

Two girls I put on the keto diet found they had more energy, didn't have a mid afternoon slump, and managed to get their bikini bodies within 6 weeks after a huge xmas food and drink binge (Pure keto)

Not 100% sure what the comments about the studies were above as they were directed to Lost Soul as we were discussing Thermodynamics.

Main issue is sticking to it - I cook my food in batches and then reheat, main staple is Chicken, Coconut Milk and Spices with alot of Green veg which I can't stomach cold, so until my workmen get around to finishing off the canteen I'm a bit scuppered (Chicken salad with Olive Oil is on my evil list now....)

Personally, when I'm on top of my game and not being lazy and making bad food choices (i.e. eating whatever is convenient) then I highly rate keto diets which have been adapted to suit my training needs. Alot of others agree. Some people can't get into the keto groove and so it doesn't work for them.

Theres a million and one ways to diet, reducing portion sizes, cutting out processed foods, nutrient partitioning, keto, low fat etc

Its all about whatever works for you.

Theres enough science kicking around to show they work, I still beleive a kcal isn't just a kcal etc so I prefer to try and stay keto, carbs when needed (training, leptin reset) and then get back into ketosis quickly (MCTs) all the while training for strength. Works for me. I just hope other people can find what works for them.


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## Lost Soul (Apr 5, 2008)

I agree, I have gained on cyclical diets but i dont work well on low carbs. MCTs are good but again some people have issues with them in terms of digestion


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## Tall (Aug 14, 2007)

Lost Soul said:


> I agree, I have gained on cyclical diets but i dont work well on low carbs. MCTs are good but again some people have issues with them in terms of digestion


On Low Carbs I think I felt tired and iritable. I think I had to go for a sleep each lunch time. On Keto with Targetted Carbs I didn't get any of that, I went to sleep at night easier and woke up fresher.

Yeah some MCTs seem to have a mild laxative effect, which on a keto diet isn't always a bad thing - especially if you don't eat your greens like you should. On diets with carbs in alot of people have issues with wheat/bread/rye/pasta/spuds etc - getting bad bloating and wind etc, so there isn't one cookie cutter diet you can just hand out to the masses sadly... They need to find out what works for them individually.


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## dudeson (May 8, 2007)

agreed on the kids being overweight, I know myself I was in sports year round and always doing cardio in the morning for football or track or lacrosse, but I was always on the heavier side, there just wasn't any good food to eat that was offered from the school. It was almost always processed and high in either carbs or fat. And so greasy...I wish that I would have known even 5% about nutrition what I know now,

So, it's interesting. I have been very strong in the gym lately. When I first tried a keto diet about a year ago,(dropped about 15lbs of fat) I was always dragging ass in the gym, super light headed and couldn't lift anything,

But lately I have been lifting really strong in the gym, it seems that I should maybe not have the energy to lift like this?

Oh, could it be because of my refeed on monday? That day I lifted well, not so much the weight but my stamina was good, and yesterday and today too.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

WOW TH&S that is fantastic progress, generally men do better than women on keto diets, but they do work well for some.

One time when I was dieting I did the zone diet, followed it to a T.

This diet for every 5 lbs of weight loss I lost 1" to my waist.

On a keto diet, for every 4 pounds I lost 1" to my waist.

Now, not sure if this was because I was a bit heavier and possibly had more bodyfat or maybe there was more water lost.

I have known people to lose up to a pound a day or about 12 lbs a week.

I love reading success stories on dieting, interestingly enough, in the beginning lipid profiles actually improve on keto diets.

Good idea to get the greens and vegetables for minerals, vitamins and fiber.

I do remember times where constipation was an issue, adding in vegetable fibers helps with this.

There could be one hitch to the keto diets if not enough minerals are not takin in with meals, acid ashing.

This would take some time but I do think it could push the body into more of an acidic environment as for the most part protein is acid ashing.


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## dudeson (May 8, 2007)

Hey, good call on the macadamia nuts, I couldn't believe how low carb they were and good fat. Also, I had never had one by it'self, just in cookies, they are my new favorite. I've lost 7lbs, so far and am staying pretty strong in the gym, so thanks for all the help.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Oh man, those macadamia nuts are very good, I have over fed on those many times....lol


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## dudeson (May 8, 2007)

ya I have to be careful, I have a big bag and they are just sitting there beckoning me, I think yesterday I went overboard.

So in an effort to be getting more fat I have been eating more sausages and bratwursts, is this a good idea, I have just been unable stomach any more salmon for the moment.


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