# Bulk up - Stay lean - Steroids and Calories question



## Xzavier (Mar 24, 2015)

Hey guys,

*My goal is to get as huge as possible (currently without the use of GH - no money leftover for this one) - just caring about the power and the looks - big and bulky without a big gut - something like a powerbuilder.*

*Health is no issue for me right now - just want to get as huge as possible without beign fat in the shortest amount of time - willing to take / do anything ...*

I'm currently starting off my bulk - weighing *94.5 kilos* at a *height *of *175 cm *and at around *10% bodyfat *(currently *24 years old)*.

My tdee (according to calculators) should be around 3300 kcals - so I added a 15% Surplus - which is around 3800 kcals.

I'm mostly sitting at my Job - just working out 4 days a week and try to do 20 minutes of cardio (2 - 3 times weekly)

*Do you think that is enough ? Or too less / too many calories?*

I'm currently running :

500 mg Tren A per week

500 mg Test E per week

(Will add 500 mg NPP next month, just waiting for my money to order it)

*Do you think that is a good cycle for my bulk? Do you think I should increase the dosage of any compound? Do you think I should switch out **the NPP for something else?*

*(never have used slin before - what do you think about this one? I could may get recipes from my doctor - just don't know if I can stay "lean" with it and if it would really bring me forward with my big and bulky issue?)*

I would be also very thankful for any other tip / suggestion you guys could come up with - feel free to say anything you like !

*Please excuse my bad english - I'm from Germany.*

Greetings

Xzavier


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## DLTBB (Jan 26, 2015)

TDEE calculators are useless and very inaccurate in my experience. Maintenance calories can vary massively from person to person even with similar activity levels, height and weight. You're best off finding your own maintenance calories through trial and error. That stack is fine for adding mass. You saying your health isn't a concern is retarded, I bet it would be a concern if you had a stroke and woke up in a hospital bed unable to work out anymore wouldn't it?


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## Xzavier (Mar 24, 2015)

Yea, that's true - I mean I'm not really concerned as far as I can workout and live to like 50-60 years old.. If I all out of the sudden could not workout anymore I would just commit suicide :/ It is pretty much my life. But things change, so my mind will, for sure.

What do you think about adding Slin? Useless or Useful?

Trial and error - okay - so what should I add per month / week to be on the safe side? I read 1 - 1,4 kg (2 to 3 lbs) would be a good safe amount (not too much fat) per month.

Is this true? Or can I build more muscle without getting too fat - or even less?


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## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

DLTBB said:


> TDEE calculators are useless and very inaccurate in my experience. Maintenance calories can vary massively from person to person even with similar activity levels, height and weight. You're best off finding your own maintenance calories through trial and error. That stack is fine for adding mass. *You saying your health isn't a concern is retarded*, I bet it would be a concern if you had a stroke and woke up in a hospital bed unable to work out anymore wouldn't it?


 Maybe he means he has no health issues rather than hes not concerned about it, he does say English isnt his first language


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## Jordan08 (Feb 17, 2014)

banzi said:


> Maybe he means he has no health issues rather than *hes not concerned* about it, he does say English isnt his first language


 He is not concerned. I have read his previous thread. Guy is hardcore


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## Dark sim (May 18, 2013)

Fat gain whilst bulking is pretty much unavoidable. The calorie surplus being controlled would the most important thing, so keep within a 200-500 surplus to keep fat gain to a minimum.

Leave insulin alone unless you can run with hgh.


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## DLTBB (Jan 26, 2015)

banzi said:


> Maybe he means he has no health issues rather than hes not concerned about it, he does say English isnt his first language


 Nope he genuinely means he doesn't care about his health as long as he can get big quickly..

2-3lbs a month is reasonable yes. If I recall correctly last time you bulked too hard/quickly and got fatter than you would have liked which made it more difficult/lengthy for you to cut. Just go at a reasonable pace.


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## Xzavier (Mar 24, 2015)

Jatin Bhatia said:


> He is not concerned. I have read his previous thread. Guy is hardcore


 Not sure if you try to make fun about me  ... 

But yea, I mean I'm not really concerned about what will be in 40 years or something - it's just too much (I don't know how to say it in english but gambling or something like that.

I may eat like clean like hell, never take steroids, drink alcohol or do anything that could harm me and die to an undetected heart failure or in an car accident which was not even my fault - that is why I say I just run whatever I feel (I read, hear) that would help me to get huge.

I mean maybe you die through the chronical abuse of steroids - or you die in a car crash - it is just about something like 'luck' imho - do not want to sound dumb or something like that - it's just my (actual) point of view.


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## Xzavier (Mar 24, 2015)

Jatin Bhatia said:


> He is not concerned. I have read his previous thread. Guy is hardcore


 Not sure if you try to make fun about me  ... 

But yea, I mean I'm not really concerned about what will be in 40 years or something - it's just too much (I don't know how to say it in english but gambling or something like that.

I may eat like clean like hell, never take steroids, drink alcohol or do anything that could harm me and die to an undetected heart failure or in an car accident which was not even my fault - that is why I say I just run whatever I feel (I read, hear) that would help me to get huge.

I mean maybe you die through the chronical abuse of steroids - or you die in a car crash - it is just about something like 'luck' imho - do not want to sound dumb or something like that - it's just my (actual) point of view.


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## Jordan08 (Feb 17, 2014)

Xzavier said:


> Not sure if you try to make fun about me  ...
> 
> But yea, I mean I'm not really concerned about what will be in 40 years or something - it's just too much (I don't know how to say it in english but gambling or something like that.
> 
> ...


 No fun mate. Every one for himself. Who am i to verdict what is wrong or what is right


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## Xzavier (Mar 24, 2015)

DLTBB said:


> Nope he genuinely means he doesn't care about his health as long as he can get big quickly..
> 
> @Xzavier 2-3lbs a month is reasonable yes. If I recall correctly last time you bulked too hard/quickly and got fatter than you would have liked which made it more difficult/lengthy for you to cut. Just go at a reasonable pace.


 Thank you for this answer my friend - yes, you remember correctly - I just ate everything in sight until I almost puked and gulped down some shakes afterwards - something between 5000 to 7000 calories per day - I looked like spongebob  ... Awful.. 

@Dark sim Yea, pretty much what I've read - I just want to Keep fat gain as low as possible while not comprimising any gains  ... Thanks for the answer about the Insulin ! 

@Jatin Bhatia Okay  Thanks for this one mate, sounds pretty humble and wise (and true) - just did not know if you mean 'Hardcore' in the true way, or wanted to make fun about that I'm acting like that - you know ?  .. it feels pretty hard to explain my sentences in english   hope you get it right


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## Colin (Sep 28, 2015)

Right with deciphering all that you want to get bigger whilst staying lean?

Everybody is individual so only you know what is your surplus calories required to bulk.

Don't expect to stay lean, lean whilst using insulin. Plenty of people use insulin without GH and get good gains from it but if you are going to use it and trying to stay as lean as possible your defeating the purpose of using insulin as you won't get its full benefits.


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## Jordan08 (Feb 17, 2014)

Xzavier said:


> Thank you for this answer my friend - yes, you remember correctly - I just ate everything in sight until I almost puked and gulped down some shakes afterwards - something between 5000 to 7000 calories per day - I looked like spongebob  ... Awful..
> 
> @Dark sim Yea, pretty much what I've read - I just want to Keep fat gain as low as possible while not comprimising any gains  ... Thanks for the answer about the Insulin !
> 
> @Jatin Bhatia Okay  Thanks for this one mate, sounds pretty humble and wise (and true) - just did not know if you mean 'Hardcore' in the true way, or wanted to make fun about that I'm acting like that - you know ?  .. it feels pretty hard to explain my sentences in english   hope you get it right


 In my gym, Anyone who takes a lot of gear, i call them hardcore and they in turn call me coward..lol


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## Xzavier (Mar 24, 2015)

Colin said:


> Right with deciphering all that you want to get bigger whilst staying lean?
> 
> Everybody is individual so only you know what is your surplus calories required to bulk.
> 
> Don't expect to stay lean, lean whilst using insulin. Plenty of people use insulin without GH and get good gains from it but if you are going to use it and trying to stay as lean as possible your defeating the purpose of using insulin as you won't get its full benefits.


 I've really zero experiences with Insulin - nor my friends or anyone I know in real life have (at least not for muscle building).

So Insulin would be more for the 'Bulk up to 300 lbs and cut down to 245 lbs' ?

I do really hate cutting - but may I ask you guys, is this true? : (quoted by http://www.fitnessandpower.com/nutrition/eating-for-size-dante-trudel/2)



> Do you see my point yet? What is your goal? Is it to be extremely big or extremely lean? If there is a 175 lb bodybuilder out there who wants to weigh 235 lbs with 8% body fat and thinks he will accomplish that with 2800 calories and nutrient density_ man you are really fooling yourself! It will not happen! I promise you, in four years time you just might weigh 195 lbs. If you went ahead and used illegal steroids you might make it to 215 lbs. But honestly, do you know the quickest way there? - Bulking up to about 285 lbs would get you there. Yes, you would probably be pretty fat, and not happy about being that fat but when you came down, you weigh 230-235 lbs. And be very happy. A sacrifice to get to your final Goal.


 So I mean would it be 'easier / better / faster' to just go on an all out bulk to get to 285 / 300 fast and cut down to 230-235 - or would it be just as hard / take as long as building up the muscle and stay pretty lean (lets say between 10-15% bodyfat) ?

Another quote out of this article: (quoted by http://www.fitnessandpower.com/nutrition/eating-for-size-dante-trudel)



> How long does it take to build extreme muscle size? I would say 5-15 years in my opinion, -- - How long does it take to lose body fat once you have reached the huge muscle size you want? 3-5 months??!! You tell me what the focus should be on. A friend reminded me of something There are models and strippers out there that take a lot of steroids (some on the level of chronic abuse) who train hard, eat really clean because they have to stay lean for their job and yet - they look the exact same year after year after year. When they first started using steroids- yes they looked better - but they hit that plateau fairly quick and stayed there.


 *That article pretty much made me think it would may be better to just 'hardcore' bulk up and look like a fat ass for some years and then cut down and be 230-245 at 10% bodyfat - but on the other hand I hate cutting and I also think it would be take longer than 3 to 5 months to cut from lets say 300 lbs to 230-245 ?  *

*I'm just so unsure ..  I just want to be huge and look awesome..  *


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## Colin (Sep 28, 2015)

@Xzavier

If you want to get alot bigger than you are you can start using insulin without Growth Hormone. Just don't expect to be extremly lean in the process. Is the price you have to pay if you wan't to see dramatic changes in your body. Theres never any reason to become a "fat ass" using insulin or not thats just sloppy diet and burying your head in the sand.

You don't seem to know what you want. Decide what you want to do and always remember 6-8 weeks of hard dieting can remove alot of fat gained in off season.


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## Xzavier (Mar 24, 2015)

Colin said:


> @Xzavier
> 
> If you want to get alot bigger than you are you can start using insulin without Growth Hormone. Just don't expect to be extremly lean in the process. Is the price you have to pay if you wan't to see dramatic changes in your body. Theres never any reason to become a "fat ass" using insulin or not thats just sloppy diet and burying your head in the sand.
> 
> You don't seem to know what you want. Decide what you want to do and always remember 6-8 weeks of hard dieting can remove alot of fat gained in off season.


 Hm - I just know what I want in the end - to be a pretty huge mofo with a flat stomach - just big, bulky, thick muscles - something near this 



 - but I'm pretty sure I'll never reach this without a really big amount of money to afford the GH ...

So I want to look as much as possible like Ramy (offseason) or someone similiar without the use of GH - I just really do not know how huge you can get without the use of GH at first (maybe I will get a better Job when I get older, just can't afford the GH right now).

I mean, in the video I posted he looks somehow bloated / bulky etc., but still has a nice chest : gut ratio and does not look like a fat ass (to me atleast) - but that is not possible w/o gh (I assume).

Pretty sure nobody in the world can tell me how huge (with the look I described above) I can get w/o GH? 

Edit: But may someone has any 'example' of a huge guy who looks good and does not use gh (just massive amounts of steroids? )


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## Colin (Sep 28, 2015)

@Xzavier

You don't need GH plenty have never used it.

Your only 24 and a big guy in good shape keep doing what your doing and chipping away eat in surplus and try not to over think it.


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## Frandeman (Mar 24, 2014)

View attachment 121250


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## Xzavier (Mar 24, 2015)

Colin said:


> @Xzavier
> 
> You don't need GH plenty have never used it.
> 
> Your only 24 and a big guy in good shape keep doing what your doing and chipping away eat in surplus and try not to over think it.


 Thank you my friend - I will do this - I'm just never satisfied - everything is 'too slow' because I want it now..  also I'm that exception everyone is talking about, that guy that think Arnold and the oldschool boys (no hate to them!) where too small (imho) - I like the huge monstrous look the Bodybuilders / Strongman from today have - f*ck the 'aesthetics' just get as huge as possible and have a flat stomach haha... 

So Colin, what would you say, how long would it approx take to get a really huge mofo - 10 to 15 years from now? Assumed I do everything right.

@Frandeman yes - exactly my thoughts - read it from Jason 'Huge' Huh for the first time



> Would you rather live 70 years as a *lamb*, or 30 years a *lion *?"


 Exactly my Lifestyle ...


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## Frandeman (Mar 24, 2014)

I fu**ing knew it


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## Xzavier (Mar 24, 2015)

Frandeman said:


> I fu**ing knew it


 Haha .. Yea I'm also the all out guy - no half-ass s**t... If I start anything in life and I really want it, I give a f*cking 100% - for example every day I do not meet my caloric goals or have a bad workout is some kind of a waste (for me) because I know I did not make a step forward to my 'greater good' ..


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## DLTBB (Jan 26, 2015)

Xzavier said:


> Hm - I just know what I want in the end - to be a pretty huge mofo with a flat stomach - just big, bulky, thick muscles - something near this
> 
> 
> 
> - but I'm pretty sure I'll never reach this without a really big amount of money to afford the GH ...


 Big Ramy is a genetic anomaly and is on a boat load of drugs and plenty of HGH. :lol:


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## Xzavier (Mar 24, 2015)

DLTBB said:


> Big Ramy is a genetic anomaly and is on a boat load of drugs and plenty of HGH. :lol:


 Haha yea - I read about his off season cycle on the Internet (tho I'm not sure if it is really 100% his) I'm pretty sure it gives us an idea of what you need to inject into your body to get this huge.. 

I mean if I had someone who would be sponsoring me with all that pretty things - I would be willing to be the first human injecting a million units of GH daily - just for the science of course..  Maybe we have a a sheikh on here who wants to call a huge mofo Bodybuilder (bigger than Ramy) his 'work'? I would be that guy! 

Taking whatever you give me, just like a pig..


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## DLTBB (Jan 26, 2015)

Xzavier said:


> Haha yea - I read about his off season cycle on the Internet (tho I'm not sure if it is really 100% his) I'm pretty sure it gives us an idea of what you need to inject into your body to get this huge..
> 
> I mean if I had someone who would be sponsoring me with all that pretty things - I would be willing to be the first human injecting a million units of GH daily - just for the science of course..  Maybe we have a a sheikh on here who wants to call a huge mofo Bodybuilder (bigger than Ramy) his 'work'? I would be that guy!
> 
> Taking whatever you give me, just like a pig..


 He is a hyper responder to drugs, these people like Big Ramy, Phil Heath etc. have the best of the best genetics for the sport, they are like the Michael Jordan's of basketball, Lionel Messi/CR7 of football ie. you could give a random person all of the training in the world but they would still never amount to half the football player that Lionel Messi is. You can give an average Joe all of the drugs in the world and they would still be nowhere near as big/freaky looking as Phil Heath/Big Ramy because of their genetics.


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## superdrol (Aug 9, 2012)

Start at 4000 and after two weeks see where your weight goes, if it doesn't increase add in 250 cals until your weight starts to climb by 1.5-2kg a month...keep cals the same once you e reached 1.5-2kg/month, then when it stalls add in 250 again


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## Xzavier (Mar 24, 2015)

@DLTBB Ouch, I already heard about that - hurts pretty hard - but maybe I have at least better than average genetics - I really hope so.

So I just have to see what time brings.

@superdrol Thanks for the advise - I'm currently at 3800 calories and just got 4,5 kg (water for sure) in 3 days - I do like the fuller look tbh.

But don't you think 1.5 - 2 kg are a bit too much ? As far as I know 1.5 kg should be the maximum (if you want to keep fat gains at a minimum).

But I'm also sure it depends on the person - some may gain 1 kg muscle and the next one may gain 2 kg muscle with the same amount of fat?

*So finally - what do you guys think ? Is it safe to shoot for 1.5 - 2 kg per month without getting too fat and just increase the calories by 250 when it stalls?  *

*Edit: Also, are there any strong orals I should / could add sometimes, for lean quality gains ?  *

*Thanks in advance!*


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## Major Eyeswater (Nov 2, 2013)

DLTBB said:


> He is a hyper responder to drugs, these people like Big Ramy, Phil Heath etc. have the best of the best genetics for the sport, they are like the Michael Jordan's of basketball, Lionel Messi/CR7 of football ie. you could give a random person all of the training in the world but they would still never amount to half the football player that Lionel Messi is. You can give an average Joe all of the drugs in the world and they would still be nowhere near as big/freaky looking as Phil Heath/Big Ramy because of their genetics.


 The other thing to consider is that Big Ramy got his pro-card about 3 years after he first stepped foot in a gym. He's that much of a genetic outlier.

Three years after my first workout, I was still trying to get my arms past 15 inches


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## superdrol (Aug 9, 2012)

Stick at 3800 for two weeks and see what gives once water has settled back as you've been cutting for a while, it's a slow and patient game, you've played the short game and got fat, slow and steady wins the race!

in view of your size I don't think 1.5-2kg per month is too fast, as a percentage of existing body weight it's relatively safe, if you were 62kg then it may be a little fast, but I'm only talking 0.5kg per week, IMO that's not too quick


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## Xzavier (Mar 24, 2015)

Thanks my man - so I'll try to shoot for 1.5 - 2 kg per week edit: *month* after I sticked w/ 3800 for 2 weeks.

Yea I was pretty skinny haha - may I ask what you mean by 'in view of your size' ? Am I so small so I can still gain a good amount of muscle? ^^'

Greetings

Xzavier


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## superdrol (Aug 9, 2012)

Xzavier said:


> Thanks my man - so I'll try to shoot for 1.5 - 2 kg per week after I sticked w/ 3800 for 2 weeks.
> 
> Yea I was pretty skinny haha - may I ask what you mean by 'in view of your size' ? Am I so small so I can still gain a good amount of muscle? ^^'
> 
> ...


 No your big, so as a percentage of your total weight gaining that much is very little

and i definately said 1.5-2kg per month, not week :beer:


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## Xzavier (Mar 24, 2015)

Haha sorry - I meant by month - just edited it  ... My fault 

So let's see what the future has in for me..  ...

Any tips for a nice ('lean') oral I could stack in here and there for 8 weeks on / off or something like that?


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## A1243R (Nov 2, 2014)

Xzavier said:


> Haha sorry - I meant by month - just edited it  ... My fault
> 
> So let's see what the future has in for me..  ...
> 
> Any tips for a nice ('lean') oral I could stack in here and there for 8 weeks on / off or something like that?


 Anadrol is the daddy of orals... the water from anadrol can be a problem but no steroid makes you lean or makes you fat... diet dictates that!


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## superdrol (Aug 9, 2012)

Superdrol is dry and good for lean gains...


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## Xzavier (Mar 24, 2015)

Thats true @A1243R - lesson I learned in my cut  .. Thanks anyway !  Will def look up Anadrol.

Is real superdrol still available anywhere?

Never saw one in any shop I looked it up (maybe it is just Germany) I dunno.

Greetings

Xzavier


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## superdrol (Aug 9, 2012)

Xzavier said:


> Thats true @A1243R - lesson I learned in my cut  .. Thanks anyway !  Will def look up Anadrol.
> 
> Is real superdrol still available anywhere?
> 
> ...


 I have shark labs for my next cycle or three


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