# Anavar with any kind of creatine or just mono?



## assuredsocial (Nov 29, 2011)

Hi guys,

Going for an anavar only cycle in the next few days.

Seen lots of research saying that creatine works really well with anavar.

I don't get on very well with Mono as it gives me bloat, would it work just as well with kre-kraklyn?

Also, can you take the anavar in one go or is it worth splitting? (i'll be doing 50-80mg a day)

thanks!


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## Hayesy (Aug 15, 2011)

Split the dose mate am/pm as it worked well for me


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## ethan2009 (Feb 24, 2011)

anavar works great with creatine ive always used ethyl ester but after doing more research looks like there isnt much creatine in it? so going for mono but the bloat will vanish anyway mate when stoped so dont worry about it.

80 no less 40 morn 40 evening.


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## Rav212 (May 18, 2011)

I'm also going to start a little Anavar cycle here some juicy info

". there's one thing anavar was not famous for! It's astonishing ability to stimulate creatine phosphate synthesis in the muscle cell. And when this happens your body starts cranking out tons of ATP (adenosine tri-phosphate) the actual chemical you need for muscular energy. (Your eyes are using ATP just to read this). ATP is vital! And it's most vital for a bodybuilder, because low ATP levels which always occur after a workout, dramatically limit protein synthesis.

However, this rarely happened to anyone taking anavar because their muscle cells were cranking out so much creatine phosphate, and thus ATP! And this is a motivation reason chemists at Searle made anavar,to stimulate creatine phosphate synthesis, not creatine monhydrate synthesis!

Your next question is only logical . . . Then why do people still get significant results from creatine monohydrate? Simply because some of the creatine monohydrate does get converted by the body to creatine phosphate . . . but not nearly as much as it should. So you see, although micronized molecules are crucial to first getting more creatine monohydrate into your bloodstream . . . the factor that's much, much more important is converting all this successfully delivered creatine monohydrate into creatine phosphate!"


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

Rav212 said:


> I'm also going to start a little Anavar cycle here some juicy info
> 
> ". there's one thing anavar was not famous for! It's astonishing ability to stimulate creatine phosphate synthesis in the muscle cell. And when this happens your body starts cranking out tons of ATP (adenosine tri-phosphate) the actual chemical you need for muscular energy. (Your eyes are using ATP just to read this). ATP is vital! And it's most vital for a bodybuilder, because low ATP levels which always occur after a workout, dramatically limit protein synthesis.
> 
> ...


good god.. i've never read such crap in my life.. no wait, i have.. all the time on BB forums...

Look at this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citric_acid_cycle

you will see under "products" that ATP is produced by the first turn of this cycle. Please understand this is how cellular energy is made (not protein synthesis); and that you can enter the krebs cycle by eating Carbs (which is glycolysis), protein (can be converted to glucose, called gluconeogenesis,a as you will note in the diagram!) and fats- which can produce glycerol (that also conversts to glucose) or Free Fatty Acids are the final step for energy (in the absence of carbs, or protein).

you don't need to supplement creatine of any sort to produce cellular energy ATP- just eat normal food...

as for creatine, the best way to absorb creatine is with insulin- i.e insulin injections to drive the creatine into cells.. much better than just drinking it with carbs...

Anyway.. creatine holds a little more water in the cell, giving some weight gain, you lose it when you stop supplementing..

feel free to take anavar for protein synthesis (it works) but nothing to do with taking extra creatine of any sort..


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

Empire Boy said:


> I think that if you time your creatine intake to coincide with a natural insulin spike you will get some benefit from the creatine. But the studies that show creatine is 'effective' are misleading so many levels. The most fundamental being that ingesting creatine w/o the presence of insulin will give you litte to no benefit as there is no way for it to be properly absorbed by your muscle cells and then transported to mitochondria to increase the rate of ATP production...I don't think you HAVE to use exogneous 'slin. But holy good god does it work with exogenous 'slin a whole hell of a lot better


fair point.. exogenous 'slin isn't a must... but then you need a REAL hit of your own... am thinking more like a pack of jelly babies and a bottle of lucozade with the creatine...

there is a brand of effervescent creatine thats absorbed better too...


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## Rav212 (May 18, 2011)

U two are talking alot about creatine and ATP in Genral tho, but what's ure views then on Anavar increasing phospocreatine synthesis? Would that not a profound effect on "absorption".!!


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## Breda (May 2, 2011)

So Aus and EB are you saying creatine without slin or a large insulin spike is bull sh!t?


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

Breda said:


> So Aus and EB are you saying creatine without slin or a large insulin spike is bull sh!t?


yes.. you just don't absorb enough without a LARGE natural spike or injected 'slin.


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## Rav212 (May 18, 2011)

I thought var increases PCr way more than any other AAS. That why it's always been linked to creatine whilst other AAS aren't as much.


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

Rav212 said:


> I thought var increases PCr way more than any other AAS. That why it's always been linked to creatine whilst other AAS aren't as much.


if you can find me one scientific study to show this, I'll be impressed. ALL AAS increase PCr synthesis; but if you look at the krebs cycle (how energy is made in the mitochondria), can you please tell me how PCr increases the absorption of Creatine??

It may well be that ingesting more Creatine monohydride will make more creatine available to become PCr:

http://www.quackwatch.com/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/DSH/creatine.html

however, you are saying that Oxandralone increases PCr synthesis markedly... and there is no evidence of that- all AAS increase PCr synthesis, but Oxandralone does not do this more.. no evidence at all...


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## Rav212 (May 18, 2011)

Yes good post mate, I understand.

How effective are "natural" insulin spikes post workout. Grapejuice/dextrose?

Or are insulin injections the only way.


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## Rav212 (May 18, 2011)

ausbuilt said:


> if you can find me one scientific study to show this, I'll be impressed. ALL AAS increase PCr synthesis; but if you look at the krebs cycle (how energy is made in the mitochondria), can you please tell me how PCr increases the absorption of Creatine??
> 
> It may well be that ingesting more Creatine monohydride will make more creatine available to become PCr:
> 
> ...


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## Rav212 (May 18, 2011)

This is why I asked on supps section can u not get straight phosocreatine powder.?


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## Breda (May 2, 2011)

Rav212:2651141 said:


> Yes good post mate, I understand.
> 
> How effective are "natural" insulin spikes post workout. Grapejuice/dextrose?
> 
> Or are insulin injections the only way.


I believe he answered this question in response to my post mate when he said it would need to be a LARGE spike to be of any significant benefit


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## Rav212 (May 18, 2011)

He said large natural spike or a insulin injection.

But what is classified as a large natural spike? Some concentrated orange squash lol?


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## Hendrix (Sep 16, 2009)

When creatine fitst hit, it was all the rage to take creatine with grape juice. Then grape juice and creatine supposedly made you fat.

I remember reading an article by Dan Duchaine, who mentioned taking creatine with lucozade, which I always have done except PWO, were I normally throw it in the shake.

Just lately, all the advise has seemed to have been, in your protein shake or just water. I always thought creatine needed to be shuttled quickly to avoid becoming waste.


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## Rav212 (May 18, 2011)

Empire Boy said:


> No no, it has to be metabolised in the the mithchondria via the citric acid cycle (i.e. krebs), which then goes to the ETC, ATPase, ATP etc... and it can't be added in this form as it is highly unstable I would imagine.


Alrite mate I got ya I was trying to get my head round that kreb cycle processes but It was sending me round in cirlces instead lol.


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## Breda (May 2, 2011)

Rav212:2651164 said:


> He said large natural spike or a insulin injection.
> 
> But what is classified as a large natural spike? Some concentrated orange squash lol?


I'm assuming a spike similar to that from a shot of slin lol


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

hendrix said:


> When creatine fitst hit, it was all the rage to take creatine with grape juice. Then grape juice and creatine supposedly made you fat.
> 
> I remember reading an article by Dan Duchaine, who mentioned taking creatine with lucozade, which I always have done except PWO, were I normally throw it in the shake.
> 
> Just lately, all the advise has seemed to have been, in your protein shake or just water. I always thought creatine needed to be shuttled quickly to avoid becoming waste.


nah mate, Dan had it right.. and wrong; as in right, lucozade is a GLUCOSE drink and GLUCOSE is what all other sugars in teh body are converted to before bing used.. so the biggest insulin spike is from GLUCOSE... Dan was the MAN!

But.. all that glucose consumption was a lot of extra calories, so unless you reduced carbs in other parts of your diet.. you DID get fatter...

Even those taking injectable slin- you don't do it for long periods (say a month, even better EOD for a month); but then.. you still can get fat.. unless. you use T3.. or even better DNP (i've posed about this before) and here's another famous BB guru (paul borrensen) saying the same thing:

http://www.bio-freak.com/members/2011/09/the-get-big-at-all-costs-stack-by-paul-borresen/



Rav212 said:


> He said large natural spike or a insulin injection.
> 
> But what is classified as a large natural spike? Some concentrated orange squash lol?


say 100g of liquid glucose (2-3 bottles of lucozade)


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## Rav212 (May 18, 2011)

Y take the var pwo? I don't think that's necessary.

What's the benefits of consuming var pwo then empire boy?


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

Rav212 said:


> Y take the var pwo? I don't think that's necessary.
> 
> What's the benefits of consuming var pwo then empire boy?


I'd take it an hour pre... absorbed through and by the end of the workout.. and it has a short half life anyway..


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## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

Excuse my ignorance here, but creatine has it's own uptake mechanism via the sodium-dependent Creatine transporter within cells. So whilst an insulin spike with the ingestion will improve uptake, it's misleading to say it'll be wasted without an insulin spike.

Regardless, you will eventually achieve maxed creatine levels without spiking insulin; you might get there faster with the use of it but who cares? What's the hurry? This is why "creatine loading" was thrown out as gumph years ago as it effectively isn't required and just makes supp companies more cash.


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## Guest (Dec 4, 2011)

hendrix said:


> When creatine fitst hit, it was all the rage to take creatine with grape juice. Then grape juice and creatine supposedly made you fat.
> 
> I remember reading an article by Dan Duchaine, who mentioned taking creatine with lucozade, which I always have done except PWO, were I normally throw it in the shake.
> 
> Just lately, all the advise has seemed to have been, in your protein shake or just water. I always thought creatine needed to be shuttled quickly to avoid becoming waste.


 shaun dinosaur davies told me to take it with cranberry juice and it works


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## Rick89 (Feb 27, 2009)

Aus, Empire and bayman??

What are your guys view on creatine use if AAS and Slin are thrown in the mix??

Worth the extra few quid for strength??fullness of the muscle while on??

I ask as I have never used creatine or slin but will be doing slin new year and was going to add creatine in my protocol???

cheers guys


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## Rick89 (Feb 27, 2009)

Empire Boy said:


> Creatine mono with 'slin is AWESOME. And 'slin (via increased lipid metabolism in the liver) causes more SHBG to get bound up that anything else...so your AAS are really freed up to exert their androgenic and anabolic effect (strong androgens like Halo, and strong androgens anabolic like tren, would, I imagine, be intense for strength on 'slin and creatine).
> 
> You throw some GHRH/GHRP or HGH in there with 'slin, then you get the upregulation of more GH receptors (if slin is between 6-8 PWO according to Dat) and also an even more intense release of IGF-1, which is crucial for new muscle and stimulating latent skeletal muscle. A potent mix for strength indeed.


thanks mate will include for sure, am hoping to take my power and size to the next level in 2012 for comps etc

I am going to be running some heavy androgens with it also (test, tren, halo, m-tren lol)

cant afford HGH but may add ghrh/ghrp in there

all these peptide boggle my mind but I think ive got the jist o it all haha

reps your way mate!!


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## Rick89 (Feb 27, 2009)

Empire Boy said:


> Rick, off the peps and 'slin alone (w/ creatine and 50mg ed proviron) I have made more and bigger gains in strength than on AAS. My deadlift is easily 230kg @ 100%, whereas my best on AAS was 215kg...I've added 15kg to my lift (body weight is also DOWN a bit) since starting the slin/peps/creatine/proviron cycle with no AAS. And it all makes sense why I'm getting stronger than when on just AAS...throw the strong androgens in there like m-tren and halo...holy sh1t....


I know I think Im gettin a hard on thinking about a 300 deadlift coming my way lol

Just got to sort my self out a decent peptide protocol

Have done loads of research, trouble is I work from 7.30 till 6 in the evening and dont train till 7.30 then in bed by 10 so slin around training is a deffo no go for me


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## Rick89 (Feb 27, 2009)

Empire Boy said:


> That is too bad :-(
> 
> I think 'slin is the 'magic' if there ever is any...its a powerful hormone...x3 a week PWO is plenty to gain big strength. but yes, I am the same, and am up until 2am-3am on 'slin days and up at 6-7am no matter...but its weird, on the peps I get much better sleep and feel FULLY rested on just 4 hours or so, honestly.


Would it be worth me looking into doing it 3x a day with meals through the time period of waking and getting in from work (5.00pm-6.00pm) ??

Or maybe just a one inject before brekkie??


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## Rick89 (Feb 27, 2009)

Empire Boy said:


> Actually Datbtrue thinks its perfectly fine to have your HGH and your insulin together. Although the peptides 30min before is important...however, you can do it maybe 20 mins before the workout ends and don't consume anything. Also if you get the humalog, 4 hours and you are g2g. So you could put the slin in at 9pm and in bed by 1am...3 hours less sleep x3 a week...but I'd bet the farm that you would be pleased you did it. 'Slin is some potent stuff when run correctly, with peptides, and I can't even imagine the effect with test/tren/halo...you'll be chucking mountains around.


I could use it on saturday n sunday earlier in day after gym/strongman training??

would be just impossible for me to stay up that late with work in the week would be a run down mess (very physical job)

I am very exicted to run this will be my first big cycle so to speak expecting good things along

will be running very high protein and high cals


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## Rick89 (Feb 27, 2009)

Empire Boy said:


> Do this, weekends. You'll get gains from it. But I think once you start the peps you will be amazed how much better and rested you feel off less sleep...that said, 8 hours is always optimal, especially if on AAS.
> 
> Defo keep me updated with what works for strength for you. Anything at all as I want to tweak my own as much as possible. This lifting heavy stuff addicting eh?


Yes mate I love it, being big and powerful is my number one goal in training

Ill keep updated im my journal on here, got alot of planning to do with peps, already know my AAS will be something along the lines of tes enanthate base, tren ace ED, Test Suspension ED hour pre workout with Mtren and halo, with low dose NPP in there as well

probably drop the mtren, and halo and slin after 4 weeks then just test and tren ace for 2 more weeks then pct.

going to be really pushing the cals hard as I have no weight class to make and the lads Im against range from 19-25 stone + lol


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## Rick89 (Feb 27, 2009)

Empire Boy said:


> you're gonna be a monster. But for it to really work, but just IMO, you need the 'slin first, then the peptides second. I am just gobstruck how much stronger I am with 'slin (PWO only, a basic strength protocol).
> 
> Lookin forward to hearing more Rick. I have your journal sub'ed.


Cheers mate

I will do as much research as possible and try train weekend when can with the slin,

Will be pecking yours and Aus knowledge from time to time Im sure


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## Rav212 (May 18, 2011)

Thread got jacked hard


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## Rick89 (Feb 27, 2009)

Rav212 said:


> Thread got jacked hard


Your right mate

Sorry about that


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## Rav212 (May 18, 2011)

Lol thats alrite I do it to lol

I don't think the op has even replied once to all this lol


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## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

Empire Boy said:


> The sodium dependent Cr tansp. is nowhere near as important or effective in getting large amount of pure creatine monohydrate into cells...for dietary creatine it is important yes. But there is an upper limit to what that pathway can handle. You need 'slin my friend to get a boat load of creatine monohydrate crammed into cells with any degree of noticeable effect. Simples.


Thanks for the condescending answer. Again, what's the rush? Once creatine stores are topped out, they're topped out. No need for slin to maintain this. Simples.

I'd imagine 99% of the results you're seeing with slin and creatine are down to the slin.


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

bayman said:


> I'd imagine 99% of the results you're seeing with slin and creatine are down to the slin.


99.9%


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## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

Empire Boy said:


> ?? what ??
> 
> Jeez, I just told you the facts in regards to the NaCl creatine dependent transporter mate...you were saying what about this? I was just telling you it still made little difference? Sorry. Didn't mean to finger your prostate.


Yes, but you're telling me in a manner that suggests I don't know what it is (CrNaClT). You also (incorrectly) have suggested creatine is useless without slin on this thread. 1000's of studies and athletes would disagree with you. You don't need slin to top out creatine levels, that's the point I was making.


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

bayman said:


> Yes, but you're telling me in a manner that suggests I don't know what it is (CrNaClT). *You also (incorrectly) have suggested creatine is useless without slin on this thread.* 1000's of studies and athletes would disagree with you. You don't need slin to top out creatine levels, that's the point I was making.


that was me saying that... and in terms of rapid absorption, i think the evidence is there..

however, for slow (months) of topping up, i take on board its not the case.... but who wants to wait months for results!


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## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

ausbuilt said:


> that was me saying that... and in terms of rapid absorption, i think the evidence is there..
> 
> however, for slow (months) of topping up, i take on board its not the case.... but who wants to wait months for results!


Well it's not like you need to cycle it is it Aus 

Supp your creatine, top out natural stores, and stay there permanently.


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## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

Like creatine is expensive, or that you need to take loads!


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## Rick89 (Feb 27, 2009)

bayman said:


> Like creatine is expensive, or that you need to take loads!


This is my thinking, why I was considering trying it for first time as its cheap as chips


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## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

Empire Boy said:


> Its not dirt cheap, if that is what you are saying, not even at bulk or my...to 'top up' with 50-70mg e/w, you'd go through ~250mg a month, for good mono about £7, so ~£100 a year...and for what?


That's hardly bank breaking either, especially for a natural looking for a slight edge. People waste far more cash on supps with next to no research base.



Empire Boy said:


> And then x that by millions of people looking for an edge....its a huge industry not about to spill the exacts of cr physiology and of course skewed studies are going to make it out there as 'proof'...wonder how many pencil necked geeks in labs laugh at meat heads pounding in creatine *when the money would have been better spent on a steak...tastes better too*


For the vast majority, couldn't agree more with your final point.



Empire Boy said:


> You work for a supp company or something?


Nope, you work for a pharmacy?


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## ethan2009 (Feb 24, 2011)

interesting i have always used creatine ethyl ester when running anavar and felt like it defo made the var work better?

whats best then to use with anavar

creatine mono?

creatine gluconate?

creatine ethyl ester?

just for that little extra benefit.


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## Hayesy (Aug 15, 2011)

Just found this thread and it was a good read, no glucose for me pwo, i duno if i should drop the creatine also


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