# Do shoulders get enough work on a PPL?



## Tomahawk (Dec 24, 2014)

I usually find that after I've done some chest work on a "push" day, my shoulders are already fatigued, and for example I can't push as hard in a military press as I would if I'd just done the military press first.

Does this cause a problem? I think that my shoulders are lagging, and wonder if on a PPL program it would be worth it to do shoulders on a separate day, or even on a "pull" or "leg" day. (Or on a push day before chest?)

Or am I talking nonsense?


----------



## Quackerz (Dec 19, 2015)

Tomahawk said:


> I usually find that after I've done some chest work on a "push" day, my shoulders are already fatigued, and for example I can't push as hard in a military press as I would if I'd just done the military press first.
> 
> Does this cause a problem? I think that my shoulders are lagging, and wonder if on a PPL program it would be worth it to do shoulders on a separate day, or even on a "pull" or "leg" day. (Or on a push day before chest?)
> 
> Or am I talking nonsense?


 Which head of the shoulders?


----------



## zacsky2 (Feb 20, 2014)

Tomahawk said:


> I usually find that after I've done some chest work on a "push" day, my shoulders are already fatigued, and for example I can't push as hard in a military press as I would if I'd just done the military press first.
> 
> Does this cause a problem? I think that my shoulders are lagging, and wonder if on a PPL program it would be worth it to do shoulders on a separate day, or even on a "pull" or "leg" day. (Or on a push day before chest?)
> 
> Or am I talking nonsense?


 Just do the shoulder excersises before the chest ones ? Or alternate 1 week start with your Bench the following push week start with your military shoulder press.


----------



## Tomahawk (Dec 24, 2014)

Quackerz said:


> Which head of the shoulders?


 I believe my side delts are lagging, although you can be the judge:









The front and side get fatigued when I do any chest pressing.


----------



## Mingster (Mar 25, 2011)

Yes.

I only bench for shoulders these days, with the occasional set for rear/side delts.


----------



## Dan TT (May 9, 2012)

As said above switch around each week as you go. Or if you fit PPL into your week twice then have one shoulder dominant day and the other chest dominant.


----------



## Tomahawk (Dec 24, 2014)

Mingster said:


> Yes.
> 
> I only bench for shoulders these days, with the occasional set for rear/side delts.


 OK, thanks. Are you trying to build muscle or maintain?


----------



## Mingster (Mar 25, 2011)

Tomahawk said:


> OK, thanks. Are you trying to build muscle or maintain?


 TBF I'm not concerned with building muscle, only on increasing strength. That hasn't seemed to have stopped my muscles developing all the same.


----------



## 2004mark (Oct 26, 2013)

Tomahawk said:


> ...my shoulders are already fatigued, and for example I can't push as hard in a military press as I would if I'd just done the military press first.


 I'm not saying this is the answer, but it your shoulders are already fatigued then surely that's job done (or half done). If however if it's your triceps that are fatigued and are the limiting factor then that's maybe a different situation.


----------



## Gmags (Nov 16, 2015)

I think what needs to be established

"Is shoulders feeling worked/fatigued after bench press ok?"

With good bench form then yes.

With poor bench form the answer would be no.


----------



## Tomahawk (Dec 24, 2014)

2004mark said:


> I'm not saying this is the answer, but it your shoulders are already fatigued then surely that's job done (or half done). If however if it's your triceps that are fatigued and are the limiting factor then that's maybe a different situation.


 Yeah I see what you mean. I never quite understood the issue with fatigue though. Isn't there an advantage to doing an exercise when the muscle is rested and can therefore lift more weight and utilize more muscle fibers for the lift? Or is the goal just to "work" the muscles until they're smashed?


----------



## Test-e (Mar 26, 2014)

Tomahawk said:


> Yeah I see what you mean. I never quite understood the issue with fatigue though. Isn't there an advantage to doing an exercise when the muscle is rested and can therefore lift more weight and utilize more muscle fibers for the lift? Or is the goal just to "work" the muscles until they're smashed?


 Different training styles. Some people respond better to one.

Best to incorporate both.


----------



## Tomahawk (Dec 24, 2014)

Gmags said:


> I think what needs to be established
> 
> "Is shoulders feeling worked/fatigued after bench press ok?"
> 
> ...


 Here is my bench press form:






That good?


----------



## Gmags (Nov 16, 2015)

Tomahawk said:


> Here is my bench press form:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 Excellent form.

I would just focus on rotating between Bench Press and Millitary press being 1st and 2nd.

Do you do PPL 3x per week?

You could switch to doing shoulders with legs or on a 4th day...

Or you could do PPL on a 4 day cycle. PPLP PLPP LPPL etc


----------



## genetik (Mar 13, 2014)

just mix it up and focus somedays more on shoulders and start with them


----------



## Tomahawk (Dec 24, 2014)

Gmags said:


> Excellent form.
> 
> I would just focus on rotating between Bench Press and Millitary press being 1st and 2nd.
> 
> ...


 Thanks mate.

I haven't actually started PPL yet, I've been doing PHAT but I'm looking for a change. I was thinking of ignoring the concept of "week" and just doing PPL (rest) on a 4-day cycle, with 2 different sets of workouts, so actually an 8 day cycle.

Rotating between chest dominant and shoulder dominant push days seems to be a good idea. Or separating shoulders & arms into a different day, but then I have a tendency to overcomplicate things so I wanted to make sure I'm not being crazy.


----------



## Gmags (Nov 16, 2015)

Tomahawk said:


> Thanks mate.
> 
> I haven't actually started PPL yet, I've been doing PHAT but I'm looking for a change. I was thinking of ignoring the concept of "week" and just doing PPL (rest) on a 4-day cycle, with 2 different sets of workouts, so actually an 8 day cycle.
> 
> Rotating between chest dominant and shoulder dominant push days seems to be a good idea. Or separating shoulders & arms into a different day, but then I have a tendency to overcomplicate things so I wanted to make sure I'm not being crazy.


 You seem to have a knowledable level of experience.

Make the changes you have planned, if you make improvements then stick with it, if you start to stall or go backwards then its not working for you.

Log as much detail as you can once you have finished PHAT and before you start the next one and compare after 8 weeks.


----------



## 2004mark (Oct 26, 2013)

Tomahawk said:


> Yeah I see what you mean. I never quite understood the issue with fatigue though. Isn't there an advantage to doing an exercise when the muscle is rested and can therefore lift more weight and utilize more muscle fibers for the lift? Or is the goal just to "work" the muscles until they're smashed?


 I don't think it's a case of smashing anything. It's just getting your head around the fact that the fatigue you speak of isn't actually wasted effort.

When I do PPL I don't do any shoulder pressing at all... just front and side delt raises (rear on back day). Saying that I do prefer a four day spilt (more for enjoyment reasons) but struggle to train 4/5 days a week like I'd want to on a routine like that.


----------



## Mingster (Mar 25, 2011)

Tomahawk said:


> Yeah I see what you mean. I never quite understood the issue with fatigue though. Isn't there an advantage to doing an exercise when the muscle is rested and can therefore lift more weight and utilize more muscle fibers for the lift? Or is the goal just to "work" the muscles until they're smashed?


 Hence using bench press for shoulders. Most people can bench more than they can ohp therefore more bang for your buck with bench. You're also working chest, tri's, lats and core. There's even a bit of legs in there. Great value from one exercise.

The more whole body lifts you include in your sessions the less fluff is required.


----------



## Quackerz (Dec 19, 2015)

Just do some lateral raises at the end of your session then. Constant tension and get a nice squeeze at the top. 3 sets of 15 or some bollox. Sorted.


----------



## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

Tomahawk said:


> I usually find that after I've done some chest work on a "push" day, my shoulders are already fatigued, and for example I can't push as hard in a military press as I would if I'd just done the military press first.
> 
> Does this cause a problem? I think that my shoulders are lagging, and wonder if on a PPL program it would be worth it to do shoulders on a separate day, or even on a "pull" or "leg" day. (Or on a push day before chest?)
> 
> Or am I talking nonsense?


 In all honesty the answer to whether PPL is good enough for delts is down to individual response.

Some people like @Mingster are able to build an impressive and balanced upper body by primarily focusing on benches and mostly only heavy compound movements, but some people with different structures and muscle fiber ratios will need to train differently including a lot more direct movements for specific body parts to achieve a balanced look.

If you've been doing PPL for a while and development is not balanced in the way you'd like then change it up a bit.


----------



## Tomahawk (Dec 24, 2014)

OK, thanks for the responses guys, much appreciated. I think I'll alternate between doing shoulders with legs and with chest, just to mix it up a bit. I'll post up my workout in my log and we'll see how I get on.


----------



## Quackerz (Dec 19, 2015)

Tomahawk said:


> OK, thanks for the responses guys, much appreciated. I think I'll alternate between doing shoulders with legs and with chest, just to mix it up a bit. I'll post up my workout in my log and we'll see how I get on.


 How does your standard push day look out of curiosity?


----------



## Tomahawk (Dec 24, 2014)

Quackerz said:


> How does your standard push day look out of curiosity?


 It's not quite set in stone yet but I did this on Wednesday:

DB Press (flat) 4 x 6-10

Incl Bench 4x 8-12

Incl Flye 2x 8-12 (Finisher)

Military Press 4x 6-10

Upright DB Row 4x 10-15

Skull Crusher 4x 6-10

Cable Tricep Ext. 4x 8-12

Cable Kickback 2x 8-15

With about 90 seconds between sets (60 seconds for tricep work), each set going to just before failure, with the last set of each exercise going to absolute failure.


----------



## Smitch (Dec 29, 2008)

Tomahawk said:


> It's not quite set in stone yet but I did this on Wednesday:
> 
> DB Press 4 x 6-10
> 
> ...


 Three tricep exercises? I'd just do some dips.

And since when has an upright row been a push exercise? :lol:


----------



## Tomahawk (Dec 24, 2014)

Smitch said:


> Three tricep exercises? I'd just do some dips.
> 
> And since when has an upright row been a push exercise? :lol:


 It's a shoulder exercise.

My triceps are lagging so I'm giving them a bit more attention.

I'm fairly lightweight so I can do about 20-25 bodyweight dips, so it's a bit too easy. Attaching 40kg to a belt I can do about 8-10, but that's a pain in the ass.


----------



## Quackerz (Dec 19, 2015)

Tomahawk said:


> It's not quite set in stone yet but I did this on Wednesday:
> 
> DB Press 4 x 6-10
> 
> ...


 Dumbbell pressing recruits a lot more fibres of your medial deltoid than military. Try swapping to them and swap the upright rows for lateral raises. I seriously think you would see a huge improvement in shoulder development doing this. That's what I would do anyway.

Here's the evidence.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/232699438_Effects_of_Body_Position_and_Loading_Modality_on_Muscle_Activity_and_Strength_in_Shoulder_Presses


----------



## Smitch (Dec 29, 2008)

Tomahawk said:


> It's a shoulder exercise.
> 
> My triceps are lagging so I'm giving them a bit more attention.
> 
> I'm fairly lightweight so I can do about 20-25 bodyweight dips, so it's a bit too easy. Attaching 40kg to a belt I can do about 8-10, but that's a pain in the ass.


 I'd push harder/add more weight on the OHP and benching then, my tris are fried after that.


----------



## Tomahawk (Dec 24, 2014)

Quackerz said:


> Dumbbell pressing recruits a lot more fibres of your medial deltoid than military. Try swapping to them and swap the upright rows for lateral raises. I seriously think you would see a huge improvement in shoulder development doing this. That's what I would do anyway.
> 
> Here's the evidence.
> 
> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/232699438_Effects_of_Body_Position_and_Loading_Modality_on_Muscle_Activity_and_Strength_in_Shoulder_Presses


 Thanks mate.

I was going to alternate between military press and DB press, same with lateral raises and upright rows. (BTW the first DB press I mentioned in the program was a chest press)

I find that upright row hits the rear delts better, especially with dumbbells. Also I have a mobility issue with my left shoulder which makes lateral raises difficult. (I'm working on it though.) What do you think about cable lateral raises?


----------



## Quackerz (Dec 19, 2015)

Tomahawk said:


> Thanks mate.
> 
> I was going to alternate between military press and DB press, same with lateral raises and upright rows. (BTW the first DB press I mentioned in the program was a chest press)
> 
> I find that upright row hits the rear delts better, especially with dumbbells. Also I have a mobility issue with my left shoulder which makes lateral raises difficult. (I'm working on it though.) What do you think about cable lateral raises?


 IMO small assistance exercise should not really matter as long as you feel the muscle working, Cables should be fine and I would do rear delts on back day.

Medial and posterior delts are the only exercises I do really high reps on, I have to use a lighter weight to be able to feel a decent contraction when I am performing them and go for higher reps. Around 20-25. But as anyone will say it is all individualised.


----------



## Tomahawk (Dec 24, 2014)

Quackerz said:


> IMO small assistance exercise should not really matter as long as you feel the muscle working, Cables should be fine and I would do rear delts on back day.
> 
> Medial and posterior delts are the only exercises I do really high reps on, I have to use a lighter weight to be able to feel a decent contraction when I am performing them and go for higher reps. Around 20-25. But as anyone will say it is all individualised.


 Cool, thanks again mate. I'll do cable raises then.

I'm the same with rear delts, if I go heavy it's just a swinging mess, and if I go light I have to do loads of reps. Same with one-arm rows.


----------



## Tomahawk (Dec 24, 2014)

Quackerz said:


> Dumbbell pressing recruits a lot more fibres of your medial deltoid than military. Try swapping to them and swap the upright rows for lateral raises. I seriously think you would see a huge improvement in shoulder development doing this. That's what I would do anyway.
> 
> Here's the evidence.
> 
> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/232699438_Effects_of_Body_Position_and_Loading_Modality_on_Muscle_Activity_and_Strength_in_Shoulder_Presses


 By the way that paper also suggests that standing vs. seating is better for delts, what do you think about that? I've never seen anyone doing dumbbell press while standing. I always thought sitting would be harder because you can't accidentally cheat with your legs (similar to how preacher curls are harder because you can't cheat with your body).


----------



## bottleneck25 (Sep 25, 2009)

I find that my shoulders are f**ked after chest press to . I train shoulders alone for this reason give them a good breakdown . hit every head and finish with some shrugs love me a good shoulder session


----------



## Quackerz (Dec 19, 2015)

Tomahawk said:


> By the way that paper also suggests that standing vs. seating is better for delts, what do you think about that? I've never seen anyone doing dumbbell press while standing. I always thought sitting would be harder because you can't accidentally cheat with your legs (similar to how preacher curls are harder because you can't cheat with your body).


 As long as your legs remain rigid it will recruit more fibres due to extra work your shoulders would have to do to stabilize the weight as a result the extra instability caused by standing as opposed to the seated version. Personally I prefer seated just so I can get the weight up easier though. One armed presses are great also, easier to get the weight up.


----------



## BLUE(UK) (Jan 9, 2008)

If you want big shoulders do clean and press's but don't dive too far down to clean so you have to pull the bar up higher.


----------



## STEVE3108 (Jun 28, 2015)

Side laterals after chest work then a few sets of presses.

Take out the upright rows. Put them with your pull workout.

And as already stated - 3 tri exercises on a push day isn't needed. pick 2 at the very most and I mean very most.

DB Press 4 x 6-10

Incl Bench 3x 8-12

Incl Flye 2x 8-12 (Finisher)

Side Lateral raise - 4x 8-15

Military Press 3x 6-10

Pushdowns 3x 8-15

Dips 2x 6-12

You could just do one tri exercise in all honesty as long as your frequency is high enough.


----------

