# Getting The Most From DNP



## Mildo (Feb 11, 2015)

I'm currently on a cut after a heavy bulking cycle and I'm going to introduce DNP to my cycle.

Im currently running;

800mg Test E

250mg Tren E (this will change to A )

Subiturine @ 30mg per day

T3 @ 50mg per day

At some point I'll introduce Winny @ 100mg per day

And in the next few days I'll be running DNP @ 150mg per day. I'm not sure if I'll go higher than this as its my first time on DNP.

Im currently consuming 700cals under maintainance @ 2450 cals per day.

245g of Protein per day

190g of fats per day

30/60g of carbs per day.

Question is, given what I am consuming, will I get the most out of DNP or is there anything I should change.

Whats the best way to get the most benefit of DNP?

Cheers


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## kelvinseal (Nov 4, 2008)

Run DNP at night before bed, consume normal kcals, the more i ate the more i burnt off inc muscle mass, so i added 50mg winny each day for muscle preservation. I drank water only and added Isotonics as well and was good. I was losing 1lb a day easy enough


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## Mildo (Feb 11, 2015)

kelvinseal said:


> Run DNP at night before bed, consume normal kcals, the more i ate the more i burnt off inc muscle mass, so i added 50mg winny each day for muscle preservation. I drank water only and added Isotonics as well and was good. I was losing 1lb a day easy enough


 Nice one. I'm hoping not to loose much muscle but don't mind a little. How much DNP were you running and why take it at night before bed?


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## kelvinseal (Nov 4, 2008)

That way u feel the hot sweaty sides less, i took 250mg a day


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## TrailerParkBoy (Sep 20, 2011)

that looks good to me but i would recommend to use at the very minimum vitamin c at 2000 mg per day even with a low dose of dnp. maybe add in vitamin e 800iu per day. the vitamins are excellent anti oxidants

also some electrolytes would be useful due to excess sweating, 2 or 3 tablets a day

make sure to consume plenty of water because dnp can make you feel not thirsty

dnp wont burn muscle, lack of calories will help lose muscle but your on plenty of gear so im sure you'll be fine

you will feel the heat side eating carbs but its not essential to cut carbs, it just helps with the side affects


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## TrailerParkBoy (Sep 20, 2011)

i'll try copying and pasting this

Echo's Guide on How To Use DNP (2.4 Dinitrophenol)

The History of DNP:
DNP is a chemical that was once used for many things such as a dye for products such as wood and clothing. It is also used as a herbicide and a pesticide still to this day.

In 1932, a study conducted by Stanford University showed that the consumption of DNP causes rapid weight loss, this led to DNP being approved as a prescription drug for overweight/obese patients to lose weight rapidly.

The drug was then discontinued for medical use in 1938 because the FDA stated that the ED50 (Effective dose for 50% of the population), is too close to the LD50 (Lethal dose for 50% of the population) - So whereas say two tablets of Paracetamol will 'cure' you, but thirty could kill you; DNP has much smaller boundaries - One tablet of DNP (125mg/250mg) will 'cure' you, but only six could kill you - (This is five times less than Paracetamol!) The LD50 for DNP is 1200mg.

There have been attempts to bring back DNP as a prescription drug for obesity, but it has been declined for the reasons above. However, the mechanism of action is deemed safe, it's just the small boundaries that are to be removed before DNP comes back for medicinal use. Researchers are trying to find a way to put a 'limit' on DNP's effects, so for example - Taking 2000mg of DNP now will kill you, but researchers are trying to find a way so even if the patient takes 2000mg, it will do no more than say 250mg.

DNP is now only used as a research chemical and as a pesticide for some countries that still allow its use. It is not illegal to own DNP in powder form but it is illegal to own DNP in capsule form intended for human consumption.

How Does DNP Work?
When ingested, DNP uncouples oxidative phosphorylation by carrying protons across the mitochondrial membrane, leading to a rapid consumption of energy without generation of ATP

Now in English; When food is ingested, the body breaks food down to create energy for your body, then any excess energy gets stored as fat. Now, because DNP uncouples ATP, your body is unable to replenish the ATP stores, leading the body constantly trying to re-fill the stores very quickly which the body is unable to do. So, in one line - your body is forever trying to replenish the stores, thus leading it into a 'hyper-metabolic state'.

Information and How To Use DNP:
The most effective way to run DNP is low-medium dose cycles lasting around three weeks. This is worked out from how DNP was used medically, my experience, and many others experiences and results

Run DNP for around three weeks before having a one-two week break. This is for:
1) Health reasons physically - As your cells will be inefficient and DNP is not great for your health, remember DNP is a poison
2) Mentally - As the user can get very frustrated and tired by the way DNP makes them feel

The reason I say around three weeks, is because you have to take things one bit at a time. You may be on your third week of DNP and the weather gets really cold and you feel that would be a great time to use DNP, go ahead and take advantage. Or oppositely, the weather could get really warm and you feel you need to drop the DNP dose down, or even stop DNP until the weather gets cooler. Or, you have events coming up you don't want to miss out on, all these factors play a part. Don't feel you have to run DNP for a specific amount of time, go by how you feel and the environment around you.

Take either 125mg or 250mg DNP per day - (I recommend 250mg, yes you will feel that little hotter, but the effects are doubled! I will get to this later) - I highly recommend you do not go up to 500mg, the side effects are much worse and are not worth it for a few extra pounds loss. If the user is finding 250mg very comfortable, then I would say for them to up the dose to 375mg per day at the highest, again I really recommend not going above that, If the user is finding 250mg too hard, they should drop it down to 125mg.

Keep in mind, DNP is a systematic poison - The more DNP ingested, the worse the side effects... and this does not necessarily mean more fat loss!

DNP has a thirty-six hour half life so the dose accumulates in the body, it takes seven days for the DNP to reach its highest dose in the body. The majority of the peak occurs around Day five, but the difference between Day five and Day seven, is very small. This is why for the first 3 days of taking DNP, you feel like it's not working but this is because the dose hasn't accumulated yet. Many people have not listened to this and upped the dose anyway, about three days later they stop completely because they couldn't handle the side effects as they have taken more than they can handle!

Many people are unsure when the best time is to take their DNP, again this comes down to you. Myself personally, I like to take it in the morning; this is because in my current scenario, I'm mostly in my room with fans, or in Computer Science Labs which are air conditioned. I then find sleeping easier because the heat spike of the DNP is not hitting me when I'm in bed. You may prefer to take it in the night, as say you have a busy job and you don't want to be sweating when say dealing with people or doing intensive tasks.

Try and take DNP at around the same time each day, this provides a steady income with less spikes. So, if you take your DNP at say 11pm in the night, then the next day you take the DNP for the day at 8am, your having your two days worth of DNP in nine hours. Also, try and avoid taking DNP on an empty stomach, you will feel like you have heartburn all day.

Below is a timeline of the DNP dose accumulating complete with a graph. The Graph is made by DiggyV from UK-M
The SpreadSheet can be downloaded from here: https://www.mediafir...iqw8qkze4vvkeee



















As you can see, the dose builds up steadily until it hits Day Seven, from there it goes up a few mg each day until it eventually stalls, however it is so extremely minor, it isn't even worth mentioning.

Diet and Training:
While running DNP, food will give you barely any energy so you will feel hungry all the time. To get the best out of DNP, I highly recommend you stick to a diet plan.

The more carbs you eat on DNP, the hotter you will feel for about an hour afterwards! That said, carbs should be fairly low. When I use DNP, this is the diet I have - 200g Protein / 150g Carbs / 80g Fat / 2000 Calories. This is what I call the perfect diet for running DNP - There is enough protein and fats to keep you full for a little bit longer, and there is enough carbs so you will get a little energy but the heat will not be too much- (More Carbs = More Heat) - If you are not sure on how to fit a diet around those numbers, Il show you exactly what I eat.










Use Complex Carbs for the Carb sources in your diet. Complex Carbs release the heat slowly but over a prolonged period of time, whereas Simple Carbs will release the heat very quickly making the heat more noticeable, however it will be over quicker. It is also more beneficial to use Complex Carbs over Simple, for the Fibre - Lack of Fibre will promote Diarhoea.

You will not be able to train at the same intensity as normal because of the lethargy feeling, you will be hot, sweaty and have no energy. Don't kill yourself in the gym, you don't need to - use weights you feel are heavy, but you are able to do about 10-15 reps with. I also like to do Thirty minutes on the CrossTrainer Post Workout

This may seem obvious, but NO alcohol whatsoever. Alcohol is full of carbs, which equal sweat. Alcohol also dehydrates you, which is how people die on DNP. The main cause of Death from DNP is Dehydration.

How Much Fat Will I Lose?
There is a mathematical formula you can use as a rough guide to working out how much fat a person can lose while running DNP. Don't take the answer from the formula as gospel, it is simply a rough guide.

For every 100mg of DNP, you will get a 10% metabolic boost
As I said above, DNP accumulates in the body. So, by Day Seven on 250mg, 420mg will have been accumatated. Now we need to add the 250mg dose for that day. 420+250=670mg
670mg = 67% Boost in Metabolic Rate - Let's call it 70% to make it easier

Now you need to work out your BMR - let's say we have someone who has a BMR of 2000
We need to work out 70% of 2000, to work out the 70% Metabolic Increase (2000/100*70=1400)
From the calculation above, we can see that an extra 1400 Calories has been burnt from DNP

2000+1400 = 3400 Total Calories Burnt just from sitting around and consuming DNP

Now, we need to factor in TDEE. Let's say the person we have - Weight Trains for an hour, three times per week, with thirty minutes Steady State Cardio Post Workout (CrossTrainer). And he has a Desk Job.
Let's say his Energy Expenditure, gives us on average, another 600 Calories Burnt

3400+600 = 4000 Calories burnt including Training

Lastly, we need to factor in food. Let's take my diet above which is 2000 Calories.
4000-2000 = 2000 Final average total Calories burnt

This equates to a 0.7lb of fat burnt Every Day. On paper, this should be 1.5lb of Fat Every Other Day.

Mandatory Supplementation:
DNP releases a large amount of free radicals in the body. A good idea for one's health is to supplement with Anti-Oxidants and Vitamins with the doses below

Vitamin C - 3000mg
Vitamin E- 800mg
ALA - 1200mg
Electrolyte Tablets - Three Times Per Day

Electrolyte tablets are not Anti-Oxidants, but I still consider them necessary. When you sweat, you release electrolytes in the sweat. Now, if your only sweating a little bit - (lets take the average person for example) - Yes they sweat a little on a day-to-day basic, but nothing major. But, on DNP you will be sweating on and off all day, the amount of sweat released depends on your dose, environment and activities you do.

Water Intoxication doesn't cause death just from drinking too much water on it's own; Death occurs by having too low electrolyte levels, so you are just thinning out the electrolyte levels in your body.

Now, given that sweating and drinking too much water causes major health risks, these are the two main effects that happens on DNP. This is why replacing Electrolytes are important.

I've seen a lot of supplements people preach about, and the bottom line is that they really aren't necessary apart from these.

Optional Supplementation:
These Supplements are optional unlike the ones above. These supplements are just to make your DNP cycles a little easier.

T3
Sibutramine
Stimulants

*T3*
DNP interrupts a process in which an enzyme called Deiodinase converts T4 into T3. So, all you are doing by supplementing with T3, is replacing the natural levels in your body which otherwise causes hypothyroidism, this has no effect on weight loss, however you will feel the hypothyroidism symptoms. The most common side effect if you choose not to supplement with T3 is Lethargy. There are many others but that is the main reason why people take T3 when running DNP.

The T3 dose should depend on what dose DNP you are taking, as Deiodinase is affected linear to the DNP dose. I recommend,

125mg - 25mcg

250mg - 50mcg

375mg - 75mcg

500mg - 100mcg

The T3 should be taken on an empty stomach - (I recommend upon awakening) - and then not eat anything for 30 minutes. There are two types of T3; Liothyronine Sodium (more commonly known as Cytomel or Tiromel) and Triiodothyronine. 99% of the time, you will receive LioThyronine Sodium off your source, as Triiodothyronine is very rare. The LioThyronine Sodium which you will recieve off your source has a half life of 2.5 Days which is why you can take the whole dose at one time per day, opposed to Triiodothyronine which is all available instantly, which is why the dose has to be split twice per day.

The T3 can then be stopped five days after the last dose of DNP where Deiodinase is less affected, as most of the DNP has left the body.

*Sibutramine*
Sibutramine is a very strong appetite suppressant, the brand name for this is Reductil. Take 10mg once a day, preferably in the morning as it will have kicked in all day rather than wait for it to take effect when your already feeling hungry. DNP causes extreme hunger, and yes you will feel hungry all day long which can result in binge eating which is detrimental to your fat loss. As well as a threat to binge eating, another reason is basically because it feels horrible feeling hungry all the time.

*Stimulants*
DNP causes bad lethargy and tiredness, even with the use of T3. I've found stimulants to give me a good boost, whether it be so I can carry on with my day easier, or before a gym session. If you use an Over The Counter Pre-Workout Powder, look at the nutritional information, you don't want the formula to contain a number of carbs giving you heat spikes throughout your workout. Personally, I like using my own mix of 30mg 1.3 Dimethylamylamine and 200mg Caffeine.

What Happens If I Overdose?
If you stick the dosage given, you will not overdose. However, if you say make a mistake and take double the amount if you say forgot you already took the dosage, don't panic. The LD50 of DNP is 1200mg, so you will not reach that if you are using a sensible dose. Just make sure to stay in cool conditions and drink plenty of water.

Let's say we have someone though, who does take a potentially dangerous overdose of DNP. Let's take the dose which caused the death of a girl running DNP - 2000mg. I know, extremely irresponsible. Darwinism perhaps....

Within three hours, this is when the dangerous symptoms start to show:
-Sweating Profusely
-Intense Thirst
-Very High Heart Rate 
-HyperThermia
-Disorientation

If she is aware of the potential dangers, and this happened by a complete mistake. She should have made herself vomit as soon as possible. If she had admitted herself to the Emergency Room very shortly after consumption, the use of Charcoal to induce vomiting would be administered

If she waited any longer than thirty minutes, she would have to admit herself to Emergency Room immediately, and tell the staff she had taken 2.4 Dinitrophenol and how much (2000mg in this case). I stress, you HAVE to tell the doctors what you have taken, otherwise they can make the wrong decision. They could put you on a Glucose Drip (They could think you are going hypoglycemic), which will only make things much worse

For Treatment, she would be subject to:
-Ice Baths

-Ice Enemas
-Cold Electric Blankets
-IV Drip of Fluids

Body Temperature, Cardiac Rhythm, Heart Rate and Oxygen Saturation should be closely monitored

Dantrolene has been effective in one medical case to treat Hyperthermia for DNP. However, there was only one case this has been used in - which was successful - but unfortunately the use of Dantrolene to treat Hyperthermia was never looked into.

Side Effects:
This list may seem quite large, however simple precautions can be taken for each one.

*Heat*
Your body will be in a hyper-metabolic state so this is the main side effect. At a dosage of 250mg per day, the heat isn't too bad, I describe it as a mild but noticeable increase. To help with this, try and stay cool by putting yourself in cool conditions. Use of Fans and Air Conditioning help tremendously! Avoid the Sun if and when you can as warm environments promote Dehydration and Sweating making this side effect much worse.

*Sweating*
To counteract the heat, the body sweats trying to cool itself down. You may have heard rumours over the years that "DNP will cook you from the inside", however this is not the case. You cannot "cook yourself alive", as the sweat will be continually cooling you down, plus the dehydration signs will be huge, and your mind will literally be forcing your body to drink water. The only way you can overheat from DNP, is that you are so dehydrated, you actually stop sweating, however I'm sure your body's survival instincts would stop you from getting to this stage.

*Water Retention*
This is closely associated with hypothyroidism and heat. Firstly, a hypothyroidism symptom is water retention. Secondly, when a rise in body temperature occurs, blood vessels expand allowing more water and sodium into the cells. Some people don't get it but most people do - (more so if the user isn't using T3, again hypothyroidism). This is another reason why people up their DNP dosage early, is because of the water retention, the weighing scales will not move until a week after stopping DNP - To keep your mind at ease, do not weigh until a week after DNP. DO NOT run any diuretic whatsoever, this is very dangerous. (Stimulants are exceptions)

*Lethargy*
I explained this in detail above, it's basically a hypothyroidism symptom.

*Dehydration*
Because of the rise in heat and sweating; dehydration will always be an issue and your water intake should always be on your mind. The user should be consuming at least 5 litres / 10 pints / 1 gallon of water per day, anything less can cause a threat.

*Heavy Breathing*
DNP makes the mitochondria in the cells inefficient. Remember, DNP is a systematic poison; the more consumed, the more inefficiency. Which in turn makes you breath heavier because the cells in the lungs are inefficient linear to the dose consumed.

*Increased Heart Rate*
It is unknown how DNP speeds up the heart rate, but it is a noted side effect. The heart rate increases linear to the the dose consumed.

*Hypoglycemia*
This occurs when your blood sugar is too low, essentially this means your body has ran out of available energy to use. This is why it is important to use Complex Carbs and have small constant intakes through the day. If you are able to, carry a fast acting glucose source around with you - especially in the gym - Lucozade, Glucose Tablets, Dextrose drinks are all options.

*Flat Muscles and Lifts Going Down*
Your muscles will look flat. This is because DNP has drained all the glycogen out of them, and because dehydration is a prime side effect - It's inevitable your muscles will look flat, and your lifts will go down - as your muscles are 80% water. However, your lifts and muscles will return to normal after the majority of DNP has left the body - (Days Five-Seven) - As I have said, DNP has muscle sparring properties, so it is unusual if your lifts decrease.

*Headaches*
Headaches are usually due to dehydration as the body does not have enough water and/or your body temperature is too high. Normally drinking one litre of water will fix this

*Diarrhea*
The user can experience Diarrhea sometimes throughout their DNP cycle, although it is quite minor. This is down to diet, as I said in the 'Diet and Training' section, make sure you limit your carbs and make them complex.

*Nausea*

Sometimes the user can feel quite nauseaus when using DNP. One of the main reasons this happens is because DNP is being taken on an empty stomach. As DNP is a 'phenol' which is a poison, which humans can't handle so well, nausea can sometimes occur lasting around 30 minutes to an hour. DNP should be taken with food, and this side effect should not occur.

*Insomnia*
Because of the heat and sweating many users find it very hard to sleep, this is true, but not if you sleep in the right conditions. I sleep with a fan pointed at me all night and I do not wake up once and barely sweat. Many DNP users complain of soaked bed sheets through sweat and cannot get to sleep due to the heat but this is normally because they are usually sleeping in warm conditions such as heating on and windows not open.etc

*Yellow Bodily Fluids*
DNP will make your urine, semen - and in some cases - sweat turn Yellow. Remember, DNP used to be used as a dye so this is hardly suprising. This will stop when the majority of the DNP has left the body (Days Five-Seven)

*Cataracts*
When DNP used to be a pescription drug, in the six years it was abvailable for medical use, there were a few cases of Cataracts. However, it is important to note that this was under the 1% of people who took DNP - (It was used for treatment successfully by hundreds of thousands of people) - and also that all the cases of Cataracts were in women. Even though this side effect is extremely rare, it is still worth mentioing because there are a lot of rumors still floating around about it. However, if a women wants to supplement with DNP, I also recommend they supplement with Glutathione (Very strong Anti-Oxidant which prevents damage to cellular components)

*Hives - Potential Allergic Reaction*
The human body is unable to pick up the DNP molecule itself, however if the DNP molecule starts to attach itself to bigger molecules in the human body, the immune system then picks this up and attacks it resulting in the body breaking out in hives. This can be prevented by taking a Benadryl each night. If the user does get an outbreak of hives, stop DNP immediately and consume a four-hour piriton every four hours and a Benadryl before you go to sleep. I had an outbreak of hives when experimenting with high DNP doses (750mg per day!) and I was not running Benadryl. This is the protocol I followed and the hives went within 2-3 days.

Debunked Rumors:
There are many rumors surrounding DNP, and I hope to have debunked many just from this guide. However, if it comes to my attention that there is a rumor that was/still is floating around. I will explain it here

*"DNP made me infertile"*
This rumor used to float around mainly US Sites for some reason. The claim was that a women used DNP, and after the cycle, she became infertile as DNP "cooked her eggs". DNP has absolutely nothing to do with infertility. My assumption is that it hadn't come to attention she was infertile, only until she was diagnosed after she had finished her DNP cycle, to which she blamed the DNP.

*"You will lose more if you eat more carbs"*

A common misconception. This is because when you eat Carbs on DNP, you become very warm and sweat, people assume that because of this you will lose more fat, because you are raising your body temperature. However, this is not the case, the heat and sweat produced when Carbs are eaten is just the by-product, or 'waste' of the Carbs eaten.

*"You will lose weight no matter what on DNP"*

Nope, you have to have a decent diet even with DNP. If you eat anything and everything, you are simply wasting your money. People have just assumed this because DNP is so potent for weight loss. The key is carbohydrates, insulin can still get released on DNP which is another reason to limit carbohydrates and make them complex. I have experimented myself to see if it was possible to gain weight on DNP, I was using 250mg for three weeks, I was eating 3000-3500 calories where I normally eat 2500 to maintain, weight training 2-3 times per week. I didn't gain weight, but I didn't lose weight either.


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## mcrewe123 (Nov 18, 2012)

Mildo said:


> I'm currently on a cut after a heavy bulking cycle and I'm going to introduce DNP to my cycle.
> 
> Im currently running;
> 
> ...


 If your just wanting to cut which im guessing you are with dnp in there, from my experience with dnp id say you dont need 800mg test, 400mg is fine, your not trying to gain just preserve muscle.

id do 25mcg t3 as to replace natty level ( ish)

i take 15mg sib, 16mg eph and caffeine in the morning and go do fasted cardio i find helps melt the fat off.

i personally think your fats are too high, i do high protein, 50-75g carbs sometimes more but youll sweat abit more.

and keep fats low.

drink enough water, i find 5l i still get headaches, so i aim for x3 of the 2.2l water bottles.

alot of people suggest vit c, personally i found it made me feel worse, they may just be me.

oh and by a fan


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## Mildo (Feb 11, 2015)

safc49 said:


> i'll try copying and pasting this
> 
> Echo's Guide on How To Use DNP (2.4 Dinitrophenol)
> 
> ...


 Wow

Thank you very much for this buddy. This is exactly what I need, so much info 

Thanks again bud


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## Mildo (Feb 11, 2015)

mcrewe123 said:


> If your just wanting to cut which im guessing you are with dnp in there, from my experience with dnp id say you dont need 800mg test, 400mg is fine, your not trying to gain just preserve muscle.
> 
> id do 25mcg t3 as to replace natty level ( ish)
> 
> ...


 Thanks for the advice buddy.

I like to keep the Test at 800mg when running Tren as it helps control the Tren sides better. I've experimented with various doses when running test and Tren and 800mg is my sweet spot.

Yea I think your right about the fats being to high, I was just going off one of those Keto calculators to find my carb, protein and fat daily consumption. I'll drop the fats down 

How do you find training when on DNP, weights or otherwise?

Also, how long should DNP be run for? Should I taper up from 150mg for the first week then up to 300mg thereafter?

The DNP I have come in 150mg caps.

Cheers


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## mcrewe123 (Nov 18, 2012)

Mildo said:


> Thanks for the advice buddy.
> 
> I like to keep the Test at 800mg when running Tren as it helps control the Tren sides better. I've experimented with various doses when running test and Tren and 800mg is my sweet spot.
> 
> ...


 Fair enough mate, i rarely use tren. I do think test alone would suffice especially the added winstrol aswel.

Well dnp speeds up your metabolism, the mor cals your taking in the more it has to burn through to then use fat stores, i tried keto first time... Dont get me wrong it works very well but you will feel 10 worse than if you just added a few carbs, mentally i couldnt cope without the carbs especially because dnp carb cravings are so bad, it keeps you sane just having a small amount and from my experience doesnt affect fat loss at all, still burn 1lb per day.

first time again, ran keto had zero energy to even talk to people never mind train, i managed to train probably twice and done 15 mins slow cardio here and there,

this time iv used ephedrine and caffeine, and i have my 50-75g of carbs the night before and for me that seems to work because iv done 45 mins cardio everyday and then a full training session ( not upto my usual intensity ) but there is a massive difference.

so id say get some eph lol.

people have different views mate, some say short blast and see where your at and blast again, personally i like to start low 250mg for a week then il up it to 375mg untill iv got to my desired weight

so for you yes start at 150mg, make sure you stick to your diet and do cardio, give it s few days for fatloss because of the fluctuation with water etc, and if your losing at 150mg stay at that until you feel you could bump it up abit.


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## Fluke82 (Sep 10, 2015)

That's a big cocktail of drugs just to lose BF?

Can't you lose fat by just running ttm and a decent deficit or something?


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## Mildo (Feb 11, 2015)

Drogon said:


> That's a big cocktail of drugs just to lose BF?
> 
> Can't you lose fat by just running ttm and a decent deficit or something?


 It's not really that much compounds but under the circumstances in my situation I'm doing this hard and fast


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## Growing Lad (Feb 14, 2009)

The metabolic increase in echoes guide is wrong.

it's corrects that it averages 10% increase Per 100 mg dnp but that's once it has accumulated after 5 or so days.


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