# the life expectancy of bodybuilders



## OnePack (Jan 9, 2004)

have u ever wondered if all this bodybuilding business, all the constant stress on the body and muscles will affect your life expectancy?

have u ever thought how much stress you are putting on your body with all the blood flow more than someone who does not go to the gym?

i never thought about this as the good diet would compromise this.

do bodybuilder's live longer in general? it would be interesting to compare say twins where one does bodybuild and the other does not.

opinions...


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## InSaNiTy (Jul 26, 2004)

Not if you take drugs, drug abusing bodybuilders/strongmen die around 40-50 odd.


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## Truewarrior1 (Jan 27, 2005)

thats funny, ronnie coleman is probably one of the bigger abusers in the world and he's still going strong at 40. as are numerous others.


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## peachy (Mar 20, 2005)

that would explain why alot of pro wrestlers from when i was a kid are passing away now in there early 40s.....mr perfect,hawk,big boss man....all under 45 

oh yea first post! hi!


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## DB (Oct 31, 2003)

lol welcome peachy..start a thread and introduce urself...

yeah a lot of pro wrestlers passed over well young... british bulldog was young also..shame


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## peachy (Mar 20, 2005)

oh yea the british bulldog! davey boy smith! how did i forget him 

i'll introduce myself in abit.....i'm abit shy like


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## shovel man (Aug 26, 2004)

was there deaths linked to roids in any way even though they were on them ?


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## Truewarrior1 (Jan 27, 2005)

^^^^

very few deaths have medically been linked to steroids. if any.

diuretics yes, steroids - none that spring to mind. all 'linked' are merely speculation.


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## peachy (Mar 20, 2005)

well....british bulldog apparently chocked on some food,big boss man just passed away in his sleep.....

didn't the bodybuilder andreas munzer die years back,very young guy and super ripped......can't remember why though?????


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## Truewarrior1 (Jan 27, 2005)

Daily: Ephederine, AN 1, Captagon, Aspirine, Valium, Clenbuterol , Thyroid

10-6 weeks before the Competition daily:

2 injects Testoviron a 250 mg 1 inject Parabolan

30 tablets Halotestin

30 tablets DBOL

20 IE* STH

20 IE* Insuline

5-3 weeks before the Competition daily:

3 injects Masteron

2 injects Parabolan

30 tablets Halotestin

50 tablets Stromba

2 injects Stromba

24 IE* STH

Insulin

2-1 weeks before the Competition daily:

2 injects Masteron

2 injects Stromba

40 tablets Halotestin

80 tablets Stromba

24 IE* STH

Insulin

IGF

i think we can all agree the guy was a huge abuser.


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## robdog (Dec 2, 2003)

Mate i doubt very much if anyone will ever know what Andreas used. I mean most of its guess work. How would they know.

As for pro-wrestlers etc then gear is the least of there worries imo. Alot of them heavily abuse rec drugs and are addicted to strong painkillers. I man these guys are on the road 300+ days of the year. They need the extra kick just to keep going.

IMO the majority of bodybuilding related deaths are down to diuretic abuse and such like.

It annoys me because steroids get the blame for everything because its all people think these atheletes use. You ask Jimmy about all the other stuff that goes on!!! It would blow your mind.


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## peachy (Mar 20, 2005)

thats a good point rob about pro wrestlers and pain killers! a guy called eddie gurrero nearly died twice a few years ago due to an on going injury and addiction,i guess the pressure to compete and earn money just made the addiction worse! hes back bigger,better than ever now though!


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## ChefX (Jan 10, 2005)

its all a guess

But take this into thought... those couch potatoes who have no life, can't take their shirt off at the beach, get winded on stairs, too tired to play with their kids, ect ect are they even living at all?


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## Great White (Apr 4, 2003)

How olds arnie now? 65?


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## Truewarrior1 (Jan 27, 2005)

about that with heart surgery


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Great post truewarrior and robdog.

I do know that some of the UFC guys take gear and their cardio is terrible.

I myself notice that my cardio gets worse on gear.

Hey it takes more oxygen to fuel that extra muscle.


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## Truewarrior1 (Jan 27, 2005)

ufc guys take gear? 

YOU HEARD IT HERE FIRST


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## robdog (Dec 2, 2003)

LOL 90% of them look juiced up to me. HGH aswell!!


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## Truewarrior1 (Jan 27, 2005)

tito ortiz has roid rage


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## Ultimate Buzz (Feb 11, 2005)

Anyone any pics of Bodybuilders in their 6o's/70's/80's?? Thoses that have continued training that is.


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## samurai691436114498 (Jan 6, 2005)

Bill pearl at age 56


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## sweet_FA (Feb 1, 2005)

Truewarrior1 said:


> thats funny, ronnie coleman is probably one of the bigger abusers in the world and he's still going strong at 40. as are numerous others.


1 thing i have pondered for a while now.......Ronnie is/was in the police force for yrs, yeah?! well, are/where his employers completely naive to the fact he is like... one of the biggest juiceheads in the world, or did they just turn a blind eye to it?!!


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## sweet_FA (Feb 1, 2005)

Truewarrior1 said:


> ufc guys take gear?
> 
> YOU HEARD IT HERE FIRST


Yeah, i read somewhere that they dont do tests for gear in UFC, some guy that was getting interviewed said words to the affect of: it doesnt really give fighters that much of an edge in No Holds Barred fighting unless they get the fight over with quickly, users burn out quicker than the natural's if the bout goes a long distance, which against a grapple fighter is bound to happen!!


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## Killerkeane (Nov 9, 2003)

bodybuilding without drugs is brilliant for the body. Alcahol, **** and recreational drugs that does more damage


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## Truewarrior1 (Jan 27, 2005)

sweet_FA said:


> 1 thing i have pondered for a while now.......Ronnie is/was in the police force for yrs, yeah?! well, are/where his employers completely naive to the fact he is like... one of the biggest juiceheads in the world, or did they just turn a blind eye to it?!!


i think the fact he's on the juice was kinda overruled by the threat of having a 300lb+ man on your police force..it saves on having to buy horses or riot control, just send ronnie in :axe:

he actually does bb full time now  but i believe they said his job is always open.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Look at Mark Coleman and Ken Shamrock, both massive and both run out of gas fast


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## jugganaut (Mar 20, 2005)

Life expectancy depends on your genetics, but I agree if you abuse drugs, AAS, you could shorten your life. But then again, we breathe in toxins everyday, we eat foods with pesticides etc. If your going to die young, I want to he a good looking corpse, so viva la steroids. lol


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## DB (Oct 31, 2003)

jugganaut said:


> If your going to die young, I want to he a good looking corpse, so viva la steroids. lol


LMAO

like it....

by the way welcome to the board :lift:


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## Truewarrior1 (Jan 27, 2005)

"die young, die strong , dianabol"

"win ripped, win big, winstrol"


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## sweet_FA (Feb 1, 2005)

Killerkeane said:


> bodybuilding without drugs is brilliant for the body. Alcahol, **** and recreational drugs that does more damage


Tell me about, ive dropped 3 pounds this weekend after 2 nights out on a liquid diet :beer: !!


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

If you are gonna drink then eat some chicken or some other protein.


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## sweet_FA (Feb 1, 2005)

peachy said:


> well....british bulldog apparently chocked on some food,big boss man just passed away in his sleep.....


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## Captain Hero (Jun 13, 2004)

and Lex Luger killed his wife last year i think, they also found steroids in his house too so no doubt the blamed it on "roid rage" .


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## sweet_FA (Feb 1, 2005)

sweet_FA said:


> Tell me about, ive dropped 3 pounds this weekend after 2 nights out on a liquid diet :beer: !!


Mind u, i came off a dbol cycle on saturday, maybe that has something to do with it


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## sweet_FA (Feb 1, 2005)

hackskii said:


> If you are gonna drink then eat some chicken or some other protein.


I made two bowls of that protein jelly, damn handy that stuff, im outta gelatine at the min tho  !!! thats all i could stomach after the weekend sesh wetting a mates babys head :beer:


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## jugganaut (Mar 20, 2005)

Cap said:


> and Lex Luger killed his wife last year i think, they also found steroids in his house too so no doubt the blamed it on "roid rage" .


I always wondered what happened to Lex. There are alot of incidences of high profile people doing stupid sh*t, and steroids are going to get the blame. Butthese are high profile people, the stresses of fame I think would contribute to there behavoir. I mean there are loads of normal people on AAS and their fine.


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## TypeR (May 28, 2004)

sweet_FA said:


> I made two bowls of that protein jelly, damn handy that stuff, im outta gelatine at the min tho  !!! thats all i could stomach after the weekend sesh wetting a mates babys head :beer:


i got that coming up soon! 

shiiit the babys due today DOH!


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## sweet_FA (Feb 1, 2005)

jugganaut said:


> I always wondered what happened to Lex. There are alot of incidences of high profile people doing stupid sh*t, and steroids are going to get the blame. Butthese are high profile people, the stresses of fame I think would contribute to there behavoir. I mean there are loads of normal people on AAS and their fine.


Yeah goodd point, I think some people have a tendency to be more susceptable to pyschosis, delusion etc upon a certain catalyst, be it AAS or mind altering drugs.


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## wrecker4 (Nov 7, 2011)

you do not die of steroids but you die of the side effects of taking steroids... todays steroids are so much stronger than when arnold was a body builder,, body builders think if you take more it must be better, last year a family members son died and we new he was on steroids,, he was 21 and we found out but his liver had massive sized tumors,his heart was double a normal size heart. no doctor will come out and say that wrestler or body builder died from steroids.. they will say it was one part, the body is not designed to carry over 250lbs so any one bigger has a risk of having a heart attack,, body builders have the same risks as a obese person.. there heart is under a lot of stress to push around the blood through there body.


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## Impulse2903 (Dec 13, 2010)

wrecker4 said:


> you do not die of steroids but you die of the side effects of taking steroids... todays steroids are so much stronger than when arnold was a body builder,*Scientific Evidence?*, body builders think if you take more it must be better, last year a family members son died and we new he was on steroids, he was 21 and we found out but his liver had massive sized tumors,his heart was double a normal size heart. no doctor will come out and say that wrestler or body builder died from steroids.. they will say it was one part, the body is not designed to carry over 250lbs so any one bigger has a risk of having a heart attack,*Again Proof?*, body builders have the same risks as a obese person.. there heart is under a lot of stress to push around the blood through there body.


Also, Well done for the biggest grave dig of a thread ever done on UK-M, and welcome mate.


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## Thunderstruck (Sep 20, 2010)

wrecker4 said:


> you do not die of steroids but you die of the side effects of taking steroids... todays steroids are so much stronger than when arnold was a body builder,, body builders think if you take more it must be better, last year a family members son died and we new he was on steroids,, he was 21 and we found out but his liver had massive sized tumors,his heart was double a normal size heart. no doctor will come out and say that wrestler or body builder died from steroids.. they will say it was one part, the body is not designed to carry over 250lbs so any one bigger has a risk of having a heart attack,, body builders have the same risks as a obese person.. there heart is under a lot of stress to push around the blood through there body.


That would be assuming the heart doesnt become stronger with training which i believe it does and so isnt under the same stress as an obese person who is uncondtioned what so ever.


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## jake87 (May 7, 2010)

twice the size my ****. if you read autopsy reports of pat tate and tony tucker, they done loads of gear and all their organs were fine very healthy.


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## essexboy (Sep 7, 2008)

Thunderstruck said:


> That would be assuming the heart doesnt become stronger with training which i believe it does and so isnt under the same stress as an obese person who is uncondtioned what so ever.


The heart will strengthen if the lifting is of sufficent intensity,and its working hard enough.The problem is that the negative effects of drug use, will overide any benefit.Its a bit like smoking 40 a day, and saying my lungs are ok, because I run 10 miles a day.

Premature death is not only linked to bodybuilders.Runners are dropping dead like flies.Yet because there is no drug culture attached, blame is nearly always linked to genes.I dont agree.Prehistoric man was designed to walk for long periods, run for short periods, and fight briefly to ward off attackers.Not run for 26 f.cukin miles.

Tom Platz peformed what is argueably the best exercise,to strengthen the heart, squats.A sad irony is that at 52ish he has suffered 2 heart attacks.No amount of hard squats protected him.


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## essexboy (Sep 7, 2008)

jake87 said:


> twice the size my ****. if you read autopsy reports of pat tate and tony tucker, they done loads of gear and all their organs were fine very healthy.


Your citing two recreational users, not full time bodybuilders.Its not an accurate representation.


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## BoxerJay (Jan 11, 2011)

I always wonder if it will be detrimental to me, whether I will end up with arthritis etc

The boxing and martial arts is probably a bigger killer like but still, I do think about stuff like this often as I intend a living a VERY long time


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## Matt 1 (May 8, 2010)

OnePack said:


> have u ever wondered if all this bodybuilding business, all the constant stress on the body and muscles will affect your life expectancy?
> 
> have u ever thought how much stress you are putting on your body with all the blood flow more than someone who does not go to the gym?
> 
> ...


If you think a bodybuilding diet is healthy, think again.. sure you're eating less ****ty foods, takeaways etc, but its not a healthy one

-people gonna disagree with this..

but i am right


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## jake87 (May 7, 2010)

essexboy said:


> Your citing two recreational users, not full time bodybuilders.Its not an accurate representation.


yep, it all went a bit off topic beforehand


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## essexboy (Sep 7, 2008)

BoxerJay said:


> I always wonder if it will be detrimental to me, whether I will end up with arthritis etc
> 
> The boxing and martial arts is probably a bigger killer like but still, I do think about stuff like this often as I intend a living a VERY long time


if you dont contract some brain damage due to boxing,I think you might be pleasantly suprised how long Boxers live.Tommy Farr and Max Schmelling are pretty good examples.


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## Tombo (Feb 21, 2009)

Matt 1 said:


> If you think a bodybuilding diet is healthy, think again.. sure you're eating less ****ty foods, takeaways etc, but its not a healthy one
> 
> -people gonna disagree with this..
> 
> but i am right


How on earth is it not healthy?

Also, everybody has a different diet so how you can claim that all of them are unhealthy?


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## lostwars (Nov 7, 2008)

kris drim an IFBB pro spilt an Aortic value on a squat, freaks me out when i lift heavy ustin having that pic in my mind


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## Andrew_Bradley (Oct 20, 2011)

Whether there is any proof or not I don't know, however people who follow a life extension regime generally have a highly calorie restricted diet.

How this works on metabolic function, atrophy, hormones and everything else i don't know, but if the saying the the brightest flame burns the quickest has any merit then big strong people probably do die younger. I think any extremes of the scale would be unhealthy, from a purely evolutionary perspective to live longer we need to treat our bodies how they have been evolved to live. Generally speaking the only reason we live longer today is due to medical advances (lose assumption) not because we've miraculously evolved in the past 300 years. Look up paleolithic diet, or vegetarianism. I am pretty sure these people live the longest but life is to be *enjoyed*, not savored.


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## britbull (Mar 18, 2004)

Hope this is not true but rumours suggest another 2 bodybuilders have died at World Champs in Mumbai

http://www.muscletalk.co.uk/1-3-Bodybuilders-dead-at-the-Mumbai-World-Champs-m4630280.aspx

RIP


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## Matt 1 (May 8, 2010)

Tombo said:


> How on earth is it not healthy?
> 
> Also, everybody has a different diet so how you can claim that all of them are unhealthy?


ok you might be knit picking slightly matey

not the healthiest might be rephrased better


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## Matt 1 (May 8, 2010)

although everyone has a slightly different diet, I would *assume* everyone has more than say 50-80 grams of protein


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## essexboy (Sep 7, 2008)

Matt 1 said:


> although everyone has a slightly different diet, I would *assume* everyone has more than say 50-80 grams of protein


Doubt if I do.

Todays diet

breakfast;

small bowl of museli, walnuts, dried fruit, pumkin & sunflower seed, 1/2 pint skimmed milk.

lunch;small ham salad sandwhich.

Dinner;4 ozs of chicken or steak, baked potatoes, mixed veg

2/3 glasses red wine, fruit 2/3 times a day.

How much protein is that Ive no idea?


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## NoGutsNoGlory (Jun 11, 2009)

essexboy said:


> Doubt if I do.
> 
> Todays diet
> 
> ...


But would you class yourself as a bodybuilder as such?


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## essexboy (Sep 7, 2008)

NoGutsNoGlory said:


> But would you class yourself as a bodybuilder as such?


Not as defined here, no.


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## Matt 1 (May 8, 2010)

essexboy said:


> Doubt if I do.
> 
> Todays diet
> 
> ...


How longs a piece of string mate? You know what I mean, i cant tell from what you ate how much protein you've had, 1oz of chicken could have X amount while another 1oz of chicken could have Y amount..

But Im just making the assumption that most people would use the forumula 1 - 2 grams of protein per pound of bodyweight, which seems to be the common thing to do when bodybuilding, again asuming the majority of people here are over 8stone (112 pounds - googled that  ) using even the minimum recomendations of protein, 1g to 1pound of bodyweight, that would be 112grams of protein.


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## Milky (Nov 30, 2008)

Who the fu*k ressurected this thread ?


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## essexboy (Sep 7, 2008)

Matt 1 said:


> How longs a piece of string mate? You know what I mean, i cant tell from what you ate how much protein you've had, 1oz of chicken could have X amount while another 1oz of chicken could have Y amount..
> 
> But Im just making the assumption that most people would use the forumula 1 - 2 grams of protein per pound of bodyweight, which seems to be the common thing to do when bodybuilding, again asuming the majority of people here are over 8stone (112 pounds - googled that  ) using even the minimum recomendations of protein, 1g to 1pound of bodyweight, that would be 112grams of protein.


Surely 4 oz of steak doesnt have a variable amount of protein, or any other nutrients, if it did we couldnt calculate any nutritional intake?


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## essexboy (Sep 7, 2008)

Milky said:


> Who the fu*k ressurected this thread ?


Quieten down you,its interesting


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## Matt 1 (May 8, 2010)

essexboy said:


> Surely 4 oz of steak doesnt have a variable amount of protein, or any other nutrients, if it did we couldnt calculate any nutritional intake?


you calculate it either by looking on the back of what it came in, asking your butcher/supplier, or just giving it a rough estimate based on the first 2 options

and id agree it probably wouldnt vary loads


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## essexboy (Sep 7, 2008)

Matt 1 said:


> you calculate it either by looking on the back of what it came in, asking your butcher/supplier, or just giving it a rough estimate based on the first 2 options
> 
> and id agree it probably wouldnt vary loads


Or you google it !3.5 ozs of steak, approx 22 grams of protein.


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## John Wood (Apr 13, 2008)

I am now coming up to my 64th yr and competed at major level throughout the 70s & 80's..would train 6days a week at 1.5hr a w/out...increasing towards a high intence level of training in my later comp days...but always incorparating a good standard of fitness and have regular check-ups with my then GP

Even these days I still maintain a very good standard of fitness...as I do'nt train as I use to{be it only through the winter months at times} strength is no problem as I work within my limits as an example after a few months training in the early months my PB{ for this year} on Squats was worked up to 400lbs for 6reps

My body weight is within 5-6lbs at 15st 4lbs{increases if i train regular as my food intake is more and the muscle bellies fill up} I've always maintained low b/f and have regular check-ups with my GP {my MOT}

I'm a keen cyclist and have been for years...out getting some good hard the miles in each week.. my GP stated I had the lungs{after a test} of a 20yr old and my heart rate was at 48bpm at rest

I do enjoy keeping myself in good health as its been my life-style for as long as I can remember...would never put my health at risk..I could live for a good few years..who knows... but in the meantime I'll stay as healthy as I can

The shot is of me this year in the South of France


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## essexboy (Sep 7, 2008)

John Wood said:


> I am now coming up to my 64th yr and competed at major level throughout the 70s & 80's..would train 6days a week at 1.5hr a w/out...increasing towards a high intence level of training in my later comp days...but always incorparating a good standard of fitness and have regular check-ups with my then GP
> 
> Even these days I still maintain a very good standard of fitness...as I do'nt train as I use to{be it only through the winter months at times} strength is no problem as I work within my limits as an example after a few months training in the early months my PB{ for this year} on Squats was worked up to 400lbs for 6reps
> 
> ...


You do it all the right way John.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Looking great John.


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## John Wood (Apr 13, 2008)

essexboy said:


> You do it all the right way John.


Thanks...I like to think so essexboy...good health to you


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## Milky (Nov 30, 2008)

John Wood said:


> Thanks...I like to think so essexboy...good health to you


Where did you go in France mate ?

Love the place....


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## luther1 (Jul 31, 2011)

essexboy said:


> Or you google it !3.5 ozs of steak, approx 22 grams of protein.


Rule of thumb is 1oz of meat = 6 gms of protein, be it pork,beef,chicken etc


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## Guest (Nov 8, 2011)

It seems to have been proved that a long life is linked to eating less. There is a race pf people in the far east who only eat until they are 70% full, unlike a western diet and in particular a bb diet. They live the longest.

I am sure that a hardcore bb diet and lifestyle cannot be healthy.

I prefer a bb way but with low fat, and plenty of healthy food, not sups, powders or drugs.

And dragging things from the past follow this link. He was well known years ago but not so much now. He follows a drug free and healthy way.

http://www.cbass.com/


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## 1010AD (May 30, 2009)

InSaNiTy said:


> Not if you take drugs, drug abusing bodybuilders/strongmen die around 40-50 odd.


Arnie should be dead then not to mention all the rest of them


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## John Wood (Apr 13, 2008)

Milky said:


> Where did you go in France mate ?
> 
> Love the place....


Stayed in Nice and toured out along the coast... Monte Carlo: Antibes; Cannes and walked for miles as we like to see the of beat tracks in the area


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## John Wood (Apr 13, 2008)

I maintain I only eat what I need.... not what I want



nodrog said:


> It seems to have been proved that a long life is linked to eating less. There is a race pf people in the far east who only eat until they are 70% full, unlike a western diet and in particular a bb diet. They live the longest.
> 
> I am sure that a hardcore bb diet and lifestyle cannot be healthy.
> 
> ...


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## Big ape (May 5, 2011)

1010AD said:


> Arnie should be dead then not to mention all the rest of them


He probably would be if he didn't have the best private doctors in the world ain't he had a good few heart attacks


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## Tombo (Feb 21, 2009)

Matt 1 said:


> ok you might be knit picking slightly matey
> 
> not the healthiest might be rephrased better


How on earth am I knit picking? People join the gym to get fitter and alongside this they improve their diet and eat healthier so why on earth do you think it is unealthy? :confused1:


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## essexboy (Sep 7, 2008)

nodrog said:


> It seems to have been proved that a long life is linked to eating less. There is a race pf people in the far east who only eat until they are 70% full, unlike a western diet and in particular a bb diet. They live the longest.
> 
> I am sure that a hardcore bb diet and lifestyle cannot be healthy.
> 
> ...


Think you summed Clarence up.Drug free healthy way.Probably not having to haul around 250lbs , helps a tad too.


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## essexboy (Sep 7, 2008)

Big ape said:


> He probably would be if he didn't have the best private doctors in the world ain't he had a good few heart attacks


He likely used less than many.With his genes he didnt need to.His heart surgery was due to valve issues, which may haver killed his father at a young age, so there may have been a genetic link.

Quite a few of Arnies generation did die young..............I can think of a few.


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## Hendrix (Sep 16, 2009)

John Wood said:


> Thanks...I like to think so essexboy...good health to you


48bpm resting, that is some serious fitness mate well done.


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## Tombo (Feb 21, 2009)

So surely is a weightlifter doesn't use drugs and eats healthy then they are having a healthy diet?


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## peanutbob69 (Aug 26, 2010)

Tombo said:


> So surely is a weightlifter doesn't use drugs and eats healthy then they are having a healthy diet?


you just don't get it do you...? The point being that your average 200lbs + competing bodybuilder would be taking in a minimum of 200-250g protein a day and consume 4000+ calories (while bulking that is). That is not regarded as a healthy diet even though they might be following a diet that is very lean and no take-aways, low amounts of saturated fat etc..


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## Tombo (Feb 21, 2009)

peanutbob69 said:


> you just don't get it do you...? The point being that your average 200lbs + competing bodybuilder would be taking in a minimum of 200-250g protein a day and consume 4000+ calories (while bulking that is). That is not regarded as a healthy diet even though they might be following a diet that is very lean and no take-aways, low amounts of saturated fat etc..


I don't think everyone on this sites competes, it is open for anyone to join. There are no criteria when you register that you have to be a competing bodybuilder.

And there is nothing wrong with easting protein unless you have something wrong with your kidneys.

I just find it obsurd that you think people who eat healthy aren't


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## NoGutsNoGlory (Jun 11, 2009)

Tombo said:


> I don't think everyone on this sites competes, it is open for anyone to join. There are no criteria when you register that you have to be a competing bodybuilder.
> 
> And there is nothing wrong with easting protein unless you have something wrong with your kidneys.
> 
> I just find it obsurd that you think people who eat healthy aren't


There is nothing healthy about bodybuilding.

I think you are confusing "people who go to the gym" with actual bodybuilders (i.e the people this thread is aimed at)

Gym once/twice a week with a "normal" diet, lots of cardio, no PEDS's and being around the "average" bodyweight for your height is healthy.

Eating 4000+ cals, 300g+ protein, using PED's, and carrying around about 4 or 5 stone more than god intended is not healthy.

If you think bodybuilding is healthy your doing it wrong


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## Papa Lazarou (Jul 4, 2007)

With all the doom bringers, any proof chaps?


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## UKLifter88 (Sep 19, 2011)

Truewarrior1 said:


> about that with heart surgery


He was born with the condition


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## britbull (Mar 18, 2004)

Papa Lazarou said:


> With all the doom bringers, any proof chaps?


The journals of people who compete and document the process:whistling: gaining muscle(off-season) and then dieting down(prep) (agreed it's only the minority who will be totally honest)

I define health as both mental and physical and our ability to maintain a life in the real world, the minute bb'ing impacts that then it becomes unhealthy.Personally lost count of the amount of marriages and relationships that have failed because of bb'ing

I like many aspects of bb'ing but like I mentioned previously it ain't beer and skittles


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## Avena (Jul 12, 2011)

Bodybuilding at competing level is really not that healthy, but then, it's not supposed to be. It's sports discipline.

Sitting by computer at work all day is not healthy as well. But it's not supposed to be. It's for bringing money in.

So I don't think life expectancy of a bodybuilder is any less or more than that of other people who just go along with life and do other unhealthy things on a daily basis.

If my only concern would be how to extend my life to the max, I would go and live in a remote nunnery, eat local, organic produce, drink mineral water and live long life(that is if I won't kill myself of boredom.)


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## Papa Lazarou (Jul 4, 2007)

You mean people who don't body build don't have relationship, physical and mental issues either? One in two relations break down, I don't agree at all. Heck, in 2007 144,220 people divorced. 2001 statsitics show that 1 in 4 British adults experience at least one diagnosable mental health problem in any one year, and 1 in 6 experiences this at any given time.

Heck, then there is proof from the NHS on street legal drugs - 9,031 people died from drinking in 2008 and 82900 from smoking. These are NHS stats. Guess you do at least one of these regularly, yeah? They're dangerous too...

You cannot expect BBers to act in ways other than how the general population behave as they are simply normal people too!


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## Tombo (Feb 21, 2009)

NoGutsNoGlory said:


> There is nothing healthy about bodybuilding.
> 
> I think you are confusing "people who go to the gym" with actual bodybuilders (i.e the people this thread is aimed at)
> 
> ...


So having muscle is no better than having fat, in terms of what you're saying?



britbull said:


> The journals of people who compete and document the process:whistling: gaining muscle(off-season) and then dieting down(prep) (agreed it's only the minority who will be totally honest)
> 
> I define health as both mental and physical and our ability to maintain a life in the real world, the minute bb'ing impacts that then it becomes unhealthy.Personally lost count of the amount of marriages and relationships that have failed because of bb'ing
> 
> I like many aspects of bb'ing but like I mentioned previously it ain't beer and skittles


Yeah but relationships where one of the couple is always down the pub drinking don't exactly work either, when I worked in a pub, most of the drinkers had bad relationships with their family (children didn't speak to them, get left out at family events etc)


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## Tombo (Feb 21, 2009)

Papa Lazarou said:


> With all the doom bringers, any proof chaps?


Just what I was thinking!


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## NorthernSoul (Nov 7, 2011)

Expect to die sooner, espesh those large guys. Reason being is that the bigger you are the harder it is to pump fuel to those muscles which takes alot of blood, as you get older the heart gets weaker and alot weaker alot faster if you stress it to much for to long.

Can't see people like heath, kai, cutler and ronny living a long life. Someone said ronny is 40+ or something. He may not even live past 55 years of age.


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## Tombo (Feb 21, 2009)

Well if all of this is true then I don't wanna get too big.


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## essexboy (Sep 7, 2008)

Tombo said:


> Just what I was thinking!


The evidence in empirical.Have you researched how many high profile Bodybuilders dont make old bones? The ones that do, have usually had heart attacks, bypasses etc.From Arnies era, Ed Corney, Denny Gable,Platz, Boyer Coe, Kawak,Munzer,Johnnie Fuller,Nubret,Michalik, just off the top of my head.........


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## mattW (Jan 12, 2009)

Nubret died age 72, so a fair few years of life, and the life expectancy of his generation is around the mid 70's mark. My grandfather died mid 70's too and he didn't drink or smoke.

When your time's up it's up and yes PED's MAY accelerate that for certain people with genetic defects, such as Arnold who inherited a congenital heart defect from both of his parents, he decided to have corrective surgery on his heart to fix it while he was relatively young so his chances of survival were better, it was NOT brought on by PED use, merely accelerated.

Sergio Oliva is still alive and kicking at 72 years of age and is still in amazing shape, which would lead me to believe he still uses PED's to some degree. Lou Ferrigno also still alive at 60 and was one of the first and few bodybuilders to step on stage at over 300lbs.

I don't believe that many of them will make it to their 80's or 90's, but most have lived a fantastic life, probably more so than those people who worry about their health every second of every day, those who allowed their worries to stop them from living life to the full, chase their dreams or achieve success.

I would rather live 40 or 50 years to the full than 100 years of drifting through life worried about when my time may be up and never really fulfilling my dreams or ambitions.

I made my decision to use PED's and I accept any and all consequences and will blame no one but myself for whatever it may bring. Just wish people would stop preaching about what others choose to do with their bodies/lives.


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## Breda (May 2, 2011)

Tombo:2604425 said:


> Well if all of this is true then I don't wanna get too big.


Come on Tombo, you don't want to eat, you don't want calluses and now you don't want to get too big... What do you want lol


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## Papa Lazarou (Jul 4, 2007)

Sean91 said:


> Expect to die sooner, espesh those large guys. Reason being is that the bigger you are the harder it is to pump fuel to those muscles which takes alot of blood, as you get older the heart gets weaker and alot weaker alot faster if you stress it to much for to long.
> 
> Can't see people like heath, kai, cutler and ronny living a long life. Someone said ronny is 40+ or something. He may not even live past 55 years of age.


Again - any proof?

Ronnie is 47.

According to the BHF 1 in 3 regular every day folk (191,000 per year) will die from a heart attack. Again... body builders are people. They will die. They will suffer similar issues to the general population since they are human as well.

Source: British Heart Foundation - http://www.bhf.org.uk/media/news-from-the-bhf/bhf-facts.aspx

I believe that someone who is bigger will die earlier, but its impossible to say when. It is fact that BMI between 20-24.9 will live the longest. Simple fact however some people stating 20-30 years less than average is wrong. The average is 80 years old in the in the UK. I'd personally be happy with 70-80 myself and most of the big names from yesteryear are making this kind of ages.

So again, stats rather than conjucture anyone? I've shown my stats and reasonings.


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## Jaymond0 (May 14, 2011)

Heart failure / attacks run in my family. I suppose you'd have to consider as an individual, your family health background before under going putting your body under extremes. Saying that, I knew somebody who family health was pretty good and he had a heart attack in his early 30's whilst using aas. didn'r smoke or drink. It's a gamble... i personally would be too scared to juice up in case my ticker goes BOOM!

I'll just Eat Clean but BIG, instead!


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## Tombo (Feb 21, 2009)

Breda said:


> Come on Tombo, you don't want to eat, you don't want calluses and now you don't want to get too big... What do you want lol


Lol, I wanna be healthy, build bigger muscles (But not excessively) and live a good life.


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## Papa Lazarou (Jul 4, 2007)

Jaymond0 said:


> Heart failure / attacks run in my family. I suppose you'd have to consider as an individual, your family health background before under going putting your body under extremes. Saying that, I knew somebody who family health was pretty good and he had a heart attack in his early 30's whilst using aas. didn'r smoke or drink. It's a gamble... i personally would be too scared to juice up in case my ticker goes BOOM!
> 
> I'll just Eat Clean but BIG, instead!


Look into Hypertrophic cardiomyopathy.



> Hypertrophic cardiomyopathy is a disease of the myocardium (the muscle of the heart) in which a portion of the myocardium is hypertrophied (thickened) without any obvious cause. It is perhaps most well known as a leading cause of sudden cardiac death in young athletes. The occurrence of hypertrophic cardiomyopathy is a significant cause of sudden unexpected cardiac death in any age group and as a cause of disabling cardiac symptoms. Younger people are likely to have a more severe form of hypertrophic cardiomyopathy.
> 
> HCM is frequently asymptomatic until sudden cardiac death, and for this reason some suggest routinely screening certain populations for this disease


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## switch (Jan 5, 2011)

I was told by an old friend who was ex military lab guy that a heart only has so many beats in it....... some more than others...... my take is you never know when your gonna go so make the best of what you have...... I am sure if you took most people here who are not the size of a dinasaw our healthy diets and excersize out way any drug 'abuse' ....... the opposite end of the spectrum if the clinically obese guy who can barely move off his/her heavy duty chair to get to his commode - I accept that there is a possibility the two groups may die younger but I know which one I want to be...


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## LunaticSamurai (May 19, 2009)

Franco Columbo is 71.

Arnie is 63

Mike Katz is 58

Ed Corney 79

Lou Ferrigno 60

Bodybuilding without the drugs is not an unhealthy sport at all, what people fail to realise is that the body will adjust itself to the conditions it is in. As you can see from the names i have given, these guys are not young and all competed to high degree and all took drugs. I have seen many 60+ year olds that don't do this kind of thing and are just your regular old men, pretty much all walk with a stick, can't eat sugary food because of diabetes, and have hands thats are twisted due to arthritis, yes that may live to 80-90 but i know people that have had a life of training with heavy weight, are by far fitter and healthy than someone who has not. A prime example is a guy at my gym. He's 77, trains every day i am there with weights, he skips and competes in his age group at hammer throwing. He has been in the army and the navy and has got to be one of the fittest people i know for his age, i would even go as far as saying that he would even give people 20 years younger a run for their money.

If i had to compare, i would say the bodybuilders of today are by far the most unhealthy people compared to yesteryear with the huge amount of drugs they take and huge amounts of food they eat. Don't forget the old guys never ate as much as today.


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## essexboy (Sep 7, 2008)

mattW said:


> Nubret died age 72, so a fair few years of life, and the life expectancy of his generation is around the mid 70's mark. My grandfather died mid 70's too and he didn't drink or smoke.
> 
> When your time's up it's up and yes PED's MAY accelerate that for certain people with genetic defects, such as Arnold who inherited a congenital heart defect from both of his parents, he decided to have corrective surgery on his heart to fix it while he was relatively young so his chances of survival were better, it was NOT brought on by PED use, merely accelerated.
> 
> ...


Youve chosen to pull ONE name out of that list that lived longest,still a lot less than average life expectancy.No one is preaching.I for one care not a jot what choices individuals make, as long as it doesnt impact others negatively.We are merely contributing out views.


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## Tombo (Feb 21, 2009)

LunaticSamurai said:


> Franco Columbo is 71.
> 
> Arnie is 63
> 
> ...


What is so unhealthy about eating lots of food if the food is healthy?


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## essexboy (Sep 7, 2008)

Tombo said:


> What is so unhealthy about eating lots of food if the food is healthy?


You get fat.Your Heart has to work harder. You get diabetes.your bp rises ,and pops your renal artery.Thats one possible scenario.


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## Papa Lazarou (Jul 4, 2007)

essexboy said:


> Youve chosen to pull ONE name out of that list that lived longest,still a lot less than average life expectancy.No one is preaching.I for one care not a jot what choices individuals make, as long as it doesnt impact others negatively.We are merely contributing out views.


Since 1 in 3 people will die of a heart attack, don't you think your list simply *could* show a that 1 person in 3 who will die? Just a thought.

Its easy to speculate but without due scientific process, it is merely speculation and best guessing


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## essexboy (Sep 7, 2008)

Papa Lazarou said:


> Since 1 in 3 people will die of a heart attack, don't you think your list simply *could* show a that 1 person in 3 who will die? Just a thought.
> 
> Its easy to speculate but without due scientific process, it is merely speculation and best guessing


Sorry speculate on what?


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## Papa Lazarou (Jul 4, 2007)

essexboy said:


> Sorry speculate on what?


Your proof using the names given mate, like me, is pure speculation since, could they not be the 1 in 3 who will die of a heart related issue? As as I say, my source is the British Heart Foundation.


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## britbull (Mar 18, 2004)

Papa do you honestly believe what you are doing is healthy/good for you?

3 people dying in one show..


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## essexboy (Sep 7, 2008)

Papa Lazarou said:


> Your proof using the names given mate, like me, is pure speculation since, could they not be the 1 in 3 who will die of a heart related issue? As as I say, my source is the British Heart Foundation.


Well, its not speculation its fact.All those listed have had major cv issues or are dead.All were active in an activity, which is supposed to benefit the system! All those who died,were under the average life expectancy.Thats all. Not my opinion, just fact.


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## Papa Lazarou (Jul 4, 2007)

britbull said:


> Papa do you honestly believe what you are doing is healthy/good for you?
> 
> 3 people dying in one show..


Do you honestly have any proof its is the BBing? I can show you studies of testosterone users, recent studies, that showed no increased cardiovascular risks over those in the same age groups.

3 dying in one show is shocking. However its is not the norm. 1 dying is shocking, let alone many. IMO this will be down to water manipulation and a messed up electrolyte balance and heavy diuretics in a very warm country.

I also *agree* there is an increased mortality rate, and some indeed will dye younger. However this is not the norm. And as stated, 1 in 3 people will die from heart related disease in the regular population - heart related death in us humans is a common form of death. However the statements in this thread saying 20-30 years, well, I don't agree.

Let me ask you britbull - do you drink or smoke? Do you think that is healthy or good for you? No difference here. People lose perspective its simply another avenue that people take and then is demonised in the media.


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## Papa Lazarou (Jul 4, 2007)

essexboy said:


> Well, its not speculation its fact.All those listed have had major cv issues or are dead.All were active in an activity, which is supposed to benefit the system! All those who died,were under the average life expectancy.Thats all not my opinion, just fact.


I don't think you follow. I mean could they simply not be the 1 in 3 people who die of a heart attack, like 1 in 3 in the UK do?

It would be interesting to see the rosters from the shows back in the day and see who are alive and who are not, to see if there is any truth in the claims 

Ps - no animosity from here essexboy, I just view things from another perspective


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## Chelsea (Sep 19, 2009)

mattW said:


> Nubret died age 72, so a fair few years of life, and the life expectancy of his generation is around the mid 70's mark. My grandfather died mid 70's too and he didn't drink or smoke.
> 
> When your time's up it's up and yes PED's MAY accelerate that for certain people with genetic defects, such as Arnold who inherited a congenital heart defect from both of his parents, he decided to have corrective surgery on his heart to fix it while he was relatively young so his chances of survival were better, it was NOT brought on by PED use, merely accelerated.
> 
> ...


F.ucking well said mate!!


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## essexboy (Sep 7, 2008)

I would imagine "show" related deaths, are liable to be caused by dehydration.


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## britbull (Mar 18, 2004)

Papa it was a simple yes or no question

I fail to see what others do having any bearing on the effects of stepping on stage, sure i can see the fuzzy logic in bodybuilders repeating it in parrot fashion for some self-justification

Should i drive at 90mph and say it's ok because others drive at 110mph?

Wish everyone that steps on stage all that they wish for, as well as going into it with eyes wide open.Is that so bad? BB mags with pictures of lean cuts and colourful vegetables sure looks good,yet scratch the surface...


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## essexboy (Sep 7, 2008)

Papa Lazarou said:


> I don't think you follow. I mean could they simply not be the 1 in 3 people who die of a heart attack, like 1 in 3 in the UK do?
> 
> It would be interesting to see the rosters from the shows back in the day and see who are alive and who are not, to see if there is any truth in the claims
> 
> Ps - no animosity from here essexboy, I just view things from another perspective


Papa, no animosity here either mate.Lets ignore the "famous deaths" Ive known a lot of people who have died.Various reasons, accidents, suicide illness.However, ive known too many bodybuilders who died young,for coincidence to be the only factor.

Having said that.If at 25 Id had the genetic predispostion, to enter mr Britain, and a requirement was to shovel bucketfuls of AAS down my gob, I would have done in a moment.No bias or judgement here.


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## Papa Lazarou (Jul 4, 2007)

britbull said:


> Papa it was a simple yes or no question
> 
> I fail to see what others do having any bearing on the effects of stepping on stage, sure i can see the fuzzy logic in bodybuilders repeating it in parrot fashion for some self-justification
> 
> ...


Sorry my answer explains it all.

Its like me saying do you thinking drinking/smoking will increase your chance of death? Or your diet for that matter.

No one has a perfect life style and we all do things that may effect our mortality. Me answering either way has no baring on the real world, just on you thinking "Ha ha, I outsmarted him with my request for a one word answer". As I've already stated I do think people will die younger when using AAS, but nothing like suggested.

In the real world, alcohol is a far bigger problem. It causes thousands of deaths a year and BILLIONS of pounds to the economy (a quick google showed it cost Scotland £3.56b last year), yet people set to demonise something they at best, make some educated guesses at.


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## switch (Jan 5, 2011)

Papa Lazarou said:


> In the real world, alcohol is a far bigger problem.


Apparently Fast Food is going to be our biggest cost to the NHS ongoing, Alcohol and Smoking related budgets will be 'dwarfed' and that's why they are going to bring in the burger tax lol


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## Jux (Jul 23, 2008)

Nandrolone has been shown to induce ventricular hypertrophy and cause impaired systolic and diastolic function.

Albeit in rats, but then again most mammals have similar physiology and biochemical pathways.


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## LunaticSamurai (May 19, 2009)

The biggest factor in all of this is person specific. Everyone is different and just because someone drinks, smokes, takes drugs does not mean they will die or become unhealthy as person 2 of the same age that takes the same things. Genetics are different in every single human, and some can smoke and drink till 100 years old. Bodybuilding is no different.


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## Papa Lazarou (Jul 4, 2007)

Lloyd DA said:


> Nandrolone has been shown to induce ventricular hypertrophy and cause impaired systolic and diastolic function.
> 
> Albeit in rats, but then again most mammals have similar physiology and biochemical pathways.


Watch this and fast foward to 29m36s.






The same applies IMO!


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## kites1664 (Oct 2, 2011)

like that above, very funny :thumb:


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## Jux (Jul 23, 2008)

Don't give me that BS about the scientific community being liars.

It's a peer reviewed study, for ALL the scientific community to criticise. If it has stood the test of time from them, I think it will withstand flippant comments about corruption.


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## Papa Lazarou (Jul 4, 2007)

kites1664 said:


> like that above, very funny :thumb:


Its actually a very good watch. Dispels a lot of rumours and 'facts' that are not actually what they claim.


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## Papa Lazarou (Jul 4, 2007)

Lloyd DA said:


> Don't give me that BS about the scientific community being liars.
> 
> It's a peer reviewed study, for ALL the scientific community to criticise. If it has stood the test of time from them, I think it will withstand flippant comments about corruption.


One problem. I'm not a rat, no matter what you or some may think! 

Honestly watch the entire thing. Makes a lot of sense.


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## Jux (Jul 23, 2008)

Just a tad unethical to inject people with nandrolone (well, kind of) and then give them the same diet etc for a set amount of time, especially when the hypothesis is that it has health implications.

Many articles that begin with "Scientists have shown" are a load of crap, you can't prove anything in science. It tends to be the journalists that want to fill a few spaces in the papers that create these 'facts'. They misinterpret findings all the time.


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## D8on (Aug 8, 2005)

I think a lot of people are nieve when it comes PED's and see people getting defensive when somebody questions health issues regarding PED's. Surely raising hormone levels well above normal and using stimulants and such will cause problems. P.S I know **** all just my opinion


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## Tombo (Feb 21, 2009)

essexboy said:


> You get fat.Your Heart has to work harder. You get diabetes.your bp rises ,and pops your renal artery.Thats one possible scenario.


Not if you are eating *healthy* and exercising



Papa Lazarou said:


> Its actually a very good watch. Dispels a lot of rumours and 'facts' that are not actually what they claim.


Only had time to see a short snipper but will watch the rest later. Very good so far IMO


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## essexboy (Sep 7, 2008)

Tombo said:


> Not if you are eating *healthy* and exercising
> 
> Only had time to see a short snipper but will watch the rest later. Very good so far IMO


Wrong!! If your calorific intake exceeds your requirements , you will store it as fat.It makes no difference, if its meat, cabbage,, pizza or protein shakes.


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## Tombo (Feb 21, 2009)

essexboy said:


> Wrong!! If your calorific intake exceeds your requirements , you will store it as fat.It makes no difference, if its meat, cabbage,, pizza or protein shakes.


I didn't say anthing about exceeding calorific intake 

If you build more muscle then your daily calorific intake will increase relatively as there is physically more of you to feed.


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

Papa Lazarou said:


> Watch this and fast foward to 29m36s.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Man that guy has about as much understanding of science as the rats he ridiclues, he just makes it sound like something... no wonder so many people are misinformed if they listen to folks like him!


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## BenderRodriguez (Nov 29, 2010)

D8on said:


> I think a lot of people are *nieve* when it comes PED's and see people getting defensive when somebody questions health issues regarding PED's. *Surely* raising hormone levels well above normal and using stimulants and such will cause problems. P.S *I know **** all just my opinion*


Dude I think you need to sit back and let the big boys debate(thats what I'm doing).Calling people "nieve" and then going on to say "I know fvck all" or using words like "surely" and then topping it off with "just my opinion" really doesn't hold any water.If there is no scientific evidence that supports above normal hormones cause problems then you can't just presume it does.


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## NoGutsNoGlory (Jun 11, 2009)

NoGutsNoGlory said:


> There is nothing healthy about bodybuilding.
> 
> I think you are confusing "people who go to the gym" with actual bodybuilders (i.e the people this thread is aimed at)
> 
> ...


How did you get to this:



Tombo said:


> So having muscle is no better than having fat, in terms of what you're saying?


From what I posted?


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## D8on (Aug 8, 2005)

BenderRodriguez said:


> Dude I think you need to sit back and let the big boys debate(thats what I'm doing).Calling people "nieve" and then going on to say "I know fvck all" or using words like "surely" and then topping it off with "just my opinion" really doesn't hold any water.If there is no scientific evidence that supports above normal hormones cause problems then you can't just presume it does.


So your not going to have an opinion just because you have no evidence to back it up? I don't see much evidence in this thread at all...


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## Tombo (Feb 21, 2009)

NoGutsNoGlory said:


> There is nothing healthy about bodybuilding.
> 
> I think you are confusing "people who go to the gym" with actual bodybuilders (i.e the people this thread is aimed at)
> 
> ...





NoGutsNoGlory said:


> How did you get to this:
> 
> From what I posted?


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## BenderRodriguez (Nov 29, 2010)

D8on said:


> So your not going to have an opinion just because you have no evidence to back it up? I don't see much evidence in this thread at all...


my main point was you are calling people naive yet how can you call people naive when you don't bring any substantial point to contradict what people have said.

My first post did come across as condescending,sorry about that


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## D8on (Aug 8, 2005)

Ok no worries. I agree my post did seem slightly flawed due to no evidence but I just think that some people take PED use a bit too lightly.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

From my personal perspective, steroids are not healthy for me, my blood pressure gets so high they have a very hard time lowering it, and on gear it is never within normal ranges.

Steroids again from my personal perspective gave me the worst lipid profile ever, and my friend had the worst lipid profile the doctor ever saw ever in his practice.

Had friends have anxiety issues, elevated blood pressure, terrible lipid profiles, dysfunctional hormones, depression, just to name a few, all attributed to steroids.

Diuretics are exceptionally bad, loss of potassium can totally kill the regulation (beat) of your heart.

High blood pressure is the second leading cause of kidney failure, and I actually know several guys on this board with some kidney damage.

We can go round and round with this, but when you add drugs in the mix, all bets are off.

Now to be fair, diet, lifestyle, stress, sleep all can affect longevity, but over feeding is not something that adds years, it cuts them.


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## mattW (Jan 12, 2009)

@ essexboy - sorry, was not trying to say anyone in this thread was preaching, that comment was aimed more at media/government types telling us what we should and should not be doing with our own bodies.

I concede that I may never see 80 or 70 for that matter, but at the same time I could die today. I take the necessary precautions to stay as healthy as possible while cycling PED's but nothing in life is a garuantee, I may very well end up regretting what I do now some time down the line, but none of us can see that far ahead so you may as well live for the now.


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## essexboy (Sep 7, 2008)

mattW said:


> @ essexboy - sorry, was not trying to say anyone in this thread was preaching, that comment was aimed more at media/government types telling us what we should and should not be doing with our own bodies.
> 
> I concede that I may never see 80 or 70 for that matter, but at the same time I could die today. I take the necessary precautions to stay as healthy as possible while cycling PED's but nothing in life is a garuantee, I may very well end up regretting what I do now some time down the line, but none of us can see that far ahead so you may as well live for the now.


No worries fella.If your life is enriched by using them, and you do all thats possible to minimise risk, then fine.Its what I would do, if circumstances were different.


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## Papa Lazarou (Jul 4, 2007)

mattW said:


> @ essexboy - sorry, was not trying to say anyone in this thread was preaching, that comment was aimed more at media/government types telling us what we should and should not be doing with our own bodies.
> 
> I concede that I may never see 80 or 70 for that matter, but at the same time I could die today. I take the necessary precautions to stay as healthy as possible while cycling PED's but nothing in life is a garuantee, I may very well end up regretting what I do now some time down the line, but none of us can see that far ahead so you may as well live for the now.


Good post. At the end of the day we all do things that may shorten our lives, be it drinking, smoking, driving fast etc.


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

I think the 'living for the now' thing changes if you have children or a partner you want to be with all your life - when that happens you feel you want to be as healthy for as long as possible so you can help and support them for as long as possible, and your priority ceases to be yourself but becomes your family unit. Is somewhat of a shame for people who live it up for thirty years, then they suddenly find joy in this dynamic and regret it when the reprocussions of just living for the moment catch up. Also it becomes important to set an example of healthy mind and healthy body.

Not an attack on anyone personally, but I've noted a few people on here who in mnay threads slam really hard into people who make a personal choice to allow themselves to become obese and risk their health more than an average guy because of it, but at the same time say that the increased health risks from AAS use are fine because its personal choice. If one is ok then so is the other, and if one isn't ok neither is the other IMO as both groups are living the lifestyle they chose with free will and both get a degree of satisfaction and pleasure from it despite the increased risk.

Anyway, to me 'living for the moment' doesn't mean doing as I wish now in case I die tomorrow, it means having simple gratitude and appreciation for being alive in each moment whatever that moment brings me, and living those moments without judgement obsession, ambition or desire... that's a very zen/daoist view of it though.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Dtlv74 said:


> Anyway, to me 'living for the moment' doesn't mean doing as I wish now in case I die tomorrow, it means having simple gratitude and appreciation for being alive in each moment whatever that moment brings me, and living those moments without judgement obsession, ambition or desire... that's a very zen/daoist view of it though.


Nice bit above.

I do this, the appreciation allows me to actually appreciate more, its like I woke up and now can notice.

Living in the moment or "The Now" allows you to take the time to notice.

This helps me to slow down and see the more important things in life, actually to aid in decision making as well.

It is a very cool thing to do, and many people can or will not take the time to do it, its not easy.


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## Andrew_Bradley (Oct 20, 2011)

Making stuff up here but I would think the bigger you are the more cell deterioration // cell turnover there would be. So if you have a huge mass then every time a cell regenerates (with inclusive flaws) then perhaps you have a higher percentage of one of those cells being a deadly cell that turns into cancer, causes a stroke or whatever disease it might be.


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

Andrew_Bradley said:


> Making stuff up here but I would think the bigger you are the more cell deterioration // cell turnover there would be. So if you have a huge mass then every time a cell regenerates (with inclusive flaws) then perhaps you have a higher percentage of one of those cells being a deadly cell that turns into cancer, causes a stroke or whatever disease it might be.


Your on to something there in a big way - something happens as we age called 'telomere shortening' and it happens each time a cell replicates and dna is transcribed (a telomere being the end bit of 'junk' dna on a chromosome which protects the helix and functional dna).

As the telomeres shorten and shroten as we get older, the dna becomes more and more likely to replicate incorrectly and form either a non viable cell (which cumulative non viable cells in a particular tissue result in age like symptoms such as skin getting saggier as we age, eye sight deterioration etc) or a cancerous cell if the cell loses its telomere but doesn't die as supposed to at that point.

Geneticists used to think telomere shortening was inevitable as we age and little affected it, but recently have discovered that many things affect the rate of shortening, and some even slow it or prevent it in certain cells (meditation for several hours a day for six weeks was shown to actually increase telomere length in some of the cells most affected by stress hormones compared to a control group who didn't meditate for example, and high levels of phytonutrients and antioxidants also have a beneficial effect)... but many activities increase the rate of telomere shortening rapidly, and unfortunately bodybuilders do many of them - extreme calorie excesses (bulking), frequent bouts of physical trauma which indcuces tissue breakdown (resistance training), use of stimulants (fat burning supps and PEDs), artificially elevated levels of androgenic biochemicals (AAS use), and diets which minimise antioxidant and phytonutrient intake (diets low on natural carbs)... basically anything which increases oxidative stress significantly and for more than a short duration increases the rate of telomere shortening.

Bodybuilding definitely has many health benefits on a holsitic level - improved strength and fitness, increased bone density, improved vascular health and network, psychological benefits (self discipline, motivation, mind muscle/physical awareness etc), but one thing it isn't going to do is extend anyones life in a general sense - unfortunately more likely to do the opposite if anything.


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## shinobi_85 (Feb 20, 2011)

i have heard aubrey de gray, well known life extentionist, he was saying the increased calories will produce more free radicals via oxidation and so will increase the risk of mutations in genes involved in cell replication/tumour supression and will cause premature apoptosis (programmed cell death because the cell is under threat of becoming cancerous) and there are only so many cells that can be produced in any one tissue before the dead cells build up as had been mentioned (because the tissues cells are made from stem cells, and these can only give rise to so many tissue cells) but im not sure if this ties in with what Dtlv is saying, perhaps from the standpoint that this may contribute to increased telomere shortening as a protective effect.

so maybe u use ur cells up faster in effect, so u may age faster, i can strongly agree with this. i remember seeing an experiment with apes, one group calorie restricted, one control group (normal diet), and the 50 year old calorie restricted apes were looking a LOT younger, but on the other hand i have heard somewhere this has been refuted by work done by other groups...........but if this free radical/oxidative stress effect is true, then wouldnt doing cardio and taking in more oxygen, which dissociates to a free radical, present the same problem).

As for the blood pressue increases, well no need to explain that, we see people asking about it here a lot, and its understandable that the increases vascuature supplying increased muscle mass, as with fat, will increases central pressure that the heart will have to work against, and it will react by thickening, then stretching and scarring, eventually weakening to give rise to a acute/perhaps fatal event, or contribute to an accelerated chronic stage (chornic being the which is the first part of the process i was describing). But, elsewhere, a loooong time ago, i read something saying that if the weight trainer was to get this thickened/enlarged ventricular hypertrphy, doing a balaced degree of cardiovasuclar/aerobic work can prevent this ( i dont know about reversing it), because it will allow a better coronary circulation and reduce the possible scarring and stretching that occurs (if anyone else read this somewhere let us know, ive tried to look for that article for a long). This is what i wonder about with the experiment with the rats, did they put the rat thruough the aerobic side of it, and the protecive dietary measures a lot of us take (aside from the crazy calorie intake, the supplements that reduce the bp on cycle and improve lipid profiles (even though they may still be ****, the rats was probably fatally ****). I think these variables also need to be addressed, but i feel saying 30 years of reduced is unsubstatiated, or have i not remembered the thread correctly).


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

I thought the life extension folks had smaller meals for more growth hormone output?


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## Andrew_Bradley (Oct 20, 2011)

I read that there is a jelly fish (I think it is millions of years old) that once it reproduces it then mutates itself back into a prepubescent state, it does this over and over again so effectively never ages or dies. It's immortal.

I'm sure at some point we could create a DNA virus that would allow us to do the same thing. It would probably take 50-100 years before we were even remotely close to this. I intend on getting cryogenically frozen (yes, perhaps it's selfish, but a different topic altogether) but I would hate to be 6 months away from the day that this sort of gene altering retrovirus became available. I'm happy to live in the now knowing that this thing doesn't exist, but come the time when it's 'nearly' available I wonder whether peoples' views on mortality and life extension would change. If i was 60, a bodybuilder and in 5 years time this were to become available then i would certainly stop bodybuilding, you can always restart once your body is that of a perfect 21 year old.

...And then of course the question remains, is it worth starting your life extension program now so that you delay in the inevitable in hope of the above cure? It's a catch-22 on all fronts.


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## Hendrix (Sep 16, 2009)

Dtlv74 said:


> I think the 'living for the now' thing changes if you have children or a partner you want to be with all your life - when that happens you feel you want to be as healthy for as long as possible so you can help and support them for as long as possible, and your priority ceases to be yourself but becomes your family unit. Is somewhat of a shame for people who live it up for thirty years, then they suddenly find joy in this dynamic and regret it when the reprocussions of just living for the moment catch up. Also it becomes important to set an example of healthy mind and healthy body.
> 
> Not an attack on anyone personally, but I've noted a few people on here who in mnay threads slam really hard into people who make a personal choice to allow themselves to become obese and risk their health more than an average guy because of it, but at the same time say that the increased health risks from AAS use are fine because its personal choice. If one is ok then so is the other, and if one isn't ok neither is the other IMO as both groups are living the lifestyle they chose with free will and both get a degree of satisfaction and pleasure from it despite the increased risk.
> 
> Anyway, to me *'living for the moment' doesn't mean doing as I wish now in case I die tomorrow, it means having simple gratitude and appreciation for being alive in each moment whatever that moment brings me, and living those moments without judgement obsession, ambition or desire*... that's a very zen/daoist view of it though.


I agree with this, as a former addict, I had to change in order to get well, im some ways take 'me' out of the equation, trying to live more along spiritual lines. I must add though I seem to mess it up on a daily basis lol, and find my ego and ambition getting the better of me. I sometimes wonder if my quest for the body beautifull is just an extension of my old thinking, and in some ways am sure it is.

I did make the decision to use drugs in the pursuit of how I want to look, sometimes, I have to do, to learn, If someone says 'thats wet paint' I have to touch and see for myself.

In terms of shortening my life, I make my choices and take the risks, but after a lot of research. Who Knows what will happen in the future, but I will try not to sit and worry away today, thinking about tomorrow.


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## Breda (May 2, 2011)

Breda walks in, see's that its gettin a bit deep, announces himself and sits down in the corner to see what he can learn


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## NoGutsNoGlory (Jun 11, 2009)

Must admit my priorities did change when my little one came along.

Always thought I was too selfish to have kids but i've been proven wrong. Funny what having kids does to someone.

P.S - love threads like this


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## shinobi_85 (Feb 20, 2011)

hm its possible one of the side effects of calorie reduction is surges in gh, , i have heard someone trying to batter this into my brain at some point, never went to research it though........i dunno if thats what u mean by smaller meals, if so, probably, ye


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## NickR24 (Sep 9, 2009)

threads like this which keep me coming back to this board.


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## essexboy (Sep 7, 2008)

All I know about caloric restriction, is how it make me feel.Ive been on approx 16/1800 a day now for 6 weeks.Apart from the fat loss,Ive loads of energy,I feel alert and can get by on 4 hours sleep.Im counting the hours, till I can get in the gym in the morning and can train with renewed enthusiasm & vigor.

Perhaps it burning fat I dont know.Always has the same positive effects though.


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## Tombo (Feb 21, 2009)

This thread has such interesting posts, they're really getting me thinking.


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

shinobi_85 said:


> i have heard aubrey de gray, well known life extentionist, he was saying the increased calories will produce more free radicals via oxidation and so will increase the risk of mutations in genes involved in cell replication/tumour supression and will cause premature apoptosis (programmed cell death because the cell is under threat of becoming cancerous) and there are only so many cells that can be produced in any one tissue before the dead cells build up as had been mentioned (because the tissues cells are made from stem cells, and these can only give rise to so many tissue cells) but im not sure if this ties in with what Dtlv is saying, perhaps from the standpoint that this may contribute to increased telomere shortening as a protective effect.
> 
> so maybe u use ur cells up faster in effect, so u may age faster, i can strongly agree with this. i remember seeing an experiment with apes, one group calorie restricted, one control group (normal diet), and the 50 year old calorie restricted apes were looking a LOT younger, but on the other hand i have heard somewhere this has been refuted by work done by other groups...........but if this free radical/oxidative stress effect is true, then wouldnt doing cardio and taking in more oxygen, which dissociates to a free radical, present the same problem).
> 
> As for the blood pressue increases, well no need to explain that, we see people asking about it here a lot, and its understandable that the increases vascuature supplying increased muscle mass, as with fat, will increases central pressure that the heart will have to work against, and it will react by thickening, then stretching and scarring, eventually weakening to give rise to a acute/perhaps fatal event, or contribute to an accelerated chronic stage (chornic being the which is the first part of the process i was describing). But, elsewhere, a loooong time ago, i read something saying that if the weight trainer was to get this thickened/enlarged ventricular hypertrphy, doing a balaced degree of cardiovasuclar/aerobic work can prevent this ( i dont know about reversing it), because it will allow a better coronary circulation and reduce the possible scarring and stretching that occurs (if anyone else read this somewhere let us know, ive tried to look for that article for a long). This is what i wonder about with the experiment with the rats, did they put the rat thruough the aerobic side of it, and the protecive dietary measures a lot of us take (aside from the crazy calorie intake, the supplements that reduce the bp on cycle and improve lipid profiles (even though they may still be ****, the rats was probably fatally ****). I think these variables also need to be addressed, but i feel saying 30 years of reduced is unsubstatiated, or have i not remembered the thread correctly).


Yeah, excess calories are the biggest cause of oxidative stress and free radicals, and exercise the second biggest cause - basically almost all reactions that invlove either burning fats, carbs or proteins for energy release or involve digesting those foods create free radicals.

Am too tired to do another big post right now but will get back to it when I've more time and energy as this is part of my big topic of interest at the moment (actually mostly into nutrigenomics and nutrigenetics, but this is closely related)


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Well, I do feel most people are so into doing that they are not being.

Being is an awesome thing, doing is what everyone does.

Being allows one to not do but just be.

This opens up the ability to be able to do, and with a clear head, making logical decisions not based on emotion.

The mind can only deal with one task at a time, most people are distracted, being distracted stops observation, stopping observation hinders growth, hindering growth hinders awareness, hindering awareness, hinders direction.


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

hackskii said:


> Well, I do feel most people are so into doing that they are not being.
> 
> Being is an awesome thing, doing is what everyone does.
> 
> ...


We've had a few PM chats like this in the past Scott, and I love the way you think about this kind of thing - very similar to myself.

Many people i think feel uncomfortable with simple awareness... we are so conditioned in the modern world to strive for things, to have more (materialism), to achieve and be more (social pressure and egotism), but since you can always be better at something, and always potentially have more than you already do, there's never any end to it.

We are taught that the joy is in the struggle and the goal, but when everyone struggles for these same things the competition involves everyone trampling over each other, and often treating each other like [email protected] and stabbing each other in the back... it often also often feeds feelings of envy and resentment or inadaquacy, and/or dissatisfaction with our own achievements... and all the time our focus is on those things we miss the simple beauty in the world that requires no striving to see at all because its just 'there'.

Of all the things I have learned in my life many have been very useful in the sense of 'doing' and 'knowing' certain things, but the one thing that has given me the most inner happiness by a long long way is learning to meditate, to be in the moment, and to know when to not judge anything going on around me, to switch off thought for a while and just simply 'be'.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

More is less.

No stopping striving.

No slowing down the wheels of society.

Post not to mean anything........


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Dtlv74 said:


> Of all the things I have learned in my life many have been very useful in the sense of 'doing' and 'knowing' certain things, but the one thing that has given me the most inner happiness by a long long way is learning to meditate, to be in the moment, and to know when to not judge anything going on around me, to switch off thought for a while and just simply 'be'.


To me relaxation is very important.

To me it sets my center.


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## Andrew_Bradley (Oct 20, 2011)

hackskii said:


> Well, I do feel most people are so into doing that they are not being.
> 
> Being is an awesome thing, doing is what everyone does.
> 
> ...


hehe...

This sounds so poetic, but true nonetheless.


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## Jux (Jul 23, 2008)

Btw free radicals are used by the immune system to fight off infection ... so it's not all bad. Think of all the homeostatic systems within the body, great, intricate systems like the heart... structures like this would take billions of years to evolve, especially as one genetic mutation would give rise to a different protein etc. Then now put the free-radical 'problem' into perspective. If it was really that harmful then we'd have evolved a means of limiting the damage already.

When it comes to overeating though, especially with overweight people, they have a greatly increased risk of cancer. I dont know if this holds true for larger muscle mass, but seeing as larger muscle fibres means more muscle cells then perhaps so.


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## Guest (Nov 11, 2011)

Why don't we dig this thread up in about 50 years and see who is right?

It would be the ultimate, " Told you so."


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## Tombo (Feb 21, 2009)

nodrog said:


> Why don't we dig this thread up in about 50 years and see who is right?
> 
> It would be the ultimate, " Told you so."


I am liking that idea :lol:


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## IrishRaver (Feb 4, 2010)

"Quality is more important than quantity"

-Me


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## shinobi_85 (Feb 20, 2011)

yes, one of the methods that natural killer t cells (white blood cells) kill pathogens is by oxidative attack, there are mechanisms in the body that are designed to reduce these free radicals and scavenge them, but unfortunately although evolution has occured over so long, its doesnt neccessarily mean it is complete, or perfect.


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## Ashcrapper (Jul 3, 2008)

excellent read, some great posts particularly from essexboy, papa, hacks and Dtlv74. I have increased thy reputation accordingly gentlemen.

carry on


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Ashcrapper said:


> excellent read, some great posts particularly from essexboy, papa, hacks and Dtlv74. I have increased thy reputation accordingly gentlemen.
> 
> carry on


Likewise.


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