# Best pre workout available?



## superdantheman (Jul 22, 2016)

What's currently the best pre workout that gives clean energy plus pump? Ideally something with dmaa or a derivative that's works in the same way? I looked at mesomorph but can't see it has dmaa in it anymore?

Thanks


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## orangeandpears (Dec 16, 2017)

dimensions t5

200 caf, 30eph 30dmaa


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## DennisJamesLifts (Jan 8, 2018)

Wow! Buzzing off your nut in the gym trying to give it your best.


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## Pancake' (Aug 30, 2012)

This looks the dogs dangly bits on paper. https://musclemetrixsupplements.com/


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## DennisJamesLifts (Jan 8, 2018)

Pancake' said:


> This looks the dogs dangly bits on paper. https://musclemetrixsupplements.com/


 It's a new legal high. Anyone tried it to know how it actually felt?


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## AestheticManlet (Jun 12, 2012)

Make your own :thumb

I wouldn't call any Preworkout that contains dmaa or any other unknown high clean energy either.


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## StanleyHudson (Jul 11, 2017)

^^agreed. dmaa definitely isn't "clean" energy. plus the dmaa would actually prevent you from having a great pump because stimulants restrict blood flow


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## DennisJamesLifts (Jan 8, 2018)

Maybe those who like blood flow restriction training would jump on that. To the lay person it's a poor form of ecstasy but probably dearer ?

0.4-0.5 mg of caffeine per kg is the optimal tested from the latest physiology journals. 20 mins before you train with your Beta Alanine to provide the extra couple of reps. Keeps the ph level neutral by acting as a buffer for up to 30 seconds longer. Individual variability needs to be considered like when starting a course gear.

Happy lifting!


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## AestheticManlet (Jun 12, 2012)

DennisJamesLifts said:


> Maybe those who like blood flow restriction training would jump on that. To the lay person it's a poor form of ecstasy but probably dearer ?
> 
> 0.4-0.5 mg of caffeine per kg is the optimal tested from the latest physiology journals. 20 mins before you train with your Beta Alanine to provide the extra couple of reps. Keeps the ph level neutral by acting as a buffer for up to 30 seconds longer. Individual variability needs to be considered like when starting a course gear.
> 
> Happy lifting!


 Yeah caffeine doses people question when I recommend as much as 400mg, but it is the recommended dose for heavier guys if your sitting above 80-90kg.

Although beta alanine just needs to be supplemented daily, same concept as Creatine to saturate muscles, timing is irrelevant.


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## swole troll (Apr 15, 2015)

orangeandpears said:


> dimensions t5
> 
> 200 caf, 30eph 30dmaa


 i got heart palps just reading that ingredient profile


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## GYMRVT2 (Oct 14, 2016)

Has anyone here tried Bucked Up? The deer antler velvet extract caught my eye


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## Sasnak (Oct 11, 2016)

GYMRVT2 said:


> deer antler velvet extract caught my eye


 Please educate us. Wtf is that?


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## Sasnak (Oct 11, 2016)

orangeandpears said:


> dimensions t5
> 
> 200 caf, 30eph 30dmaa


 I'm gonna wack an order in for this I think. If it's as bad as tm "jack3d" I'm going back to speed.


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## faipdeooiad (Apr 24, 2012)

Sasnak said:


> Please educate us. Wtf is that?


 Garbage


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## GYMRVT2 (Oct 14, 2016)

Sasnak said:


> Please educate us. Wtf is that?


 deer antler velvet is meant to improve mental alertness, memory and a bunch of other things. It also goes by IGF-1 & IGF-2 I believe


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## GYMRVT2 (Oct 14, 2016)

faipdeooiad said:


> Garbage


 Have you tried it/What was your experience with it ?


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## Fadi (Dec 14, 2010)

StanleyHudson said:


> plus the dmaa would actually prevent you from having a great pump because stimulants restrict blood flow


 The above statement is only half true Sir, so if you don't mind, I shall set the record straight.

You made a point that, stimulants restrict blood flow and prevent you from having a great pump, that is to say, that a stimulant is a vasoconstrictor (constricts blood vessels/constricts blood flow). As you can see, I am being most fair to you here by giving you your 50% credit where you've been right on point. Now it's my turn to give UK-M the other 50% by also stating, that a stimulant (and here I'm thinking caffeine/coffee), is not only a vasoconstrictor, but also a vasodilator (dilates/expands/opens up blood vessels), i.e. helps you with some magnificent pumps and nutrients delivery.

OK, backtracking a bit ...

Where does your 50% of truth lies (no pun intended!)? Well, literally speaking, it lies in the head and neck, and that's it. Hence, if you've got bit of a headache, a cup of coffee would facilitate/help bring about some relief for you. I can go into the how that does occur, but that's not what my post is about right now. So it suffices to say that caffeine (a stimulant), does in fact play two roles, one of blood flow restriction (to certain localised areas of our body), but we can not dismiss the fact that it also opens up the pipes and allows for some serious amount of blood to flow through your veins, aiding with your training and muscle pump.

I'll leave it here for now, as this is a vast subject, one that depends a lot on how this product is used and/or abused.

Thanks, and I hope no offence was taken OK mate, as that's never been my intention on UK-M.

Cheers.


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## faipdeooiad (Apr 24, 2012)

GYMRVT2 said:


> Have you tried it/What was your experience with it ?


 I've read a bunch of studies and have seen it IRL - it offers no benefit in real terms


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## superdantheman (Jul 22, 2016)

popped 5g arginine, necked a redbull plus 200mg caffine pills30 mins before workout, was alright


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## AestheticManlet (Jun 12, 2012)

superdantheman said:


> popped 5g arginine, necked a redbull plus 200mg caffine pills30 mins before workout, was alright


 arginine is a pointless pwo supplement mate. It used to be the hype for NO boosting and s**t but studies carried out it doesn't actually do anything, citrulline Malate raises arginine levels in the blood much more than arginine itself does.

It will provide a pump if you take enough but no performance benefits.


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## superdantheman (Jul 22, 2016)

Ross1991 said:


> arginine is a pointless pwo supplement mate. It used to be the hype for NO boosting and s**t but studies carried out it doesn't actually do anything, citrulline Malate raises arginine levels in the blood much more than arginine itself does.
> 
> It will provide a pump if you take enough but no performance benefits.


 i use it with pine bark extract too.. but i have read that arginine isnt the greatest for N.O production after i bought it. Ive got 180 pills to use up now at a gram each..


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## PSevens2017 (Apr 2, 2017)

2 double espressos is good enough. Sometimes 3. Cost me £7 for 500gms of coffee of the month from my chosen store (not supermarket as its gash). That lasts 10-14 days. Maths - cost - VFM - gets the job done


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## AestheticManlet (Jun 12, 2012)

PSevens2017 said:


> 2 double espressos is good enough. Sometimes 3. Cost me £7 for 500gms of coffee of the month from my chosen store (not supermarket as its gash). That lasts 10-14 days. Maths - cost - VFM - gets the job done


 2x 200mg caffeine pills = 2-3p each = 4-6p

10-12g citrulline Malate (2:1) = £0.02/g = 20-24p

Max 24-30p a serving :thumbup1:


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## PSevens2017 (Apr 2, 2017)

Ross1991 said:


> 2x 200mg caffeine pills = 2-3p each = 4-6p
> 
> 10-12g citrulline Malate (2:1) = £0.02/g = 20-24p
> 
> Max 24-30p a serving :thumbup1:


 Best value for CM please @Ross1991


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## AestheticManlet (Jun 12, 2012)

PSevens2017 said:


> Best value for CM please @Ross1991


 Best is probably myprotein or gonutriton when they have the big sales on mate. I tend to stock up then.


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## PSevens2017 (Apr 2, 2017)

Ross1991 said:


> Best is probably myprotein or gonutriton when they have the big sales on mate. I tend to stock up then.


 Nice one mate, cheers


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## StanleyHudson (Jul 11, 2017)

Fadi said:


> You made a point that, stimulants restrict blood flow and prevent you from having a great pump, that is to say, that a stimulant is a vasoconstrictor (constricts blood vessels/constricts blood flow). As you can see, I am being most fair to you here by giving you your 50% credit where you've been right on point. Now it's my turn to give UK-M the other 50% by also stating, that a stimulant (and here I'm thinking caffeine/coffee), is not only a vasoconstrictor, but also a vasodilator (dilates/expands/opens up blood vessels), i.e. helps you with some magnificent pumps and nutrients delivery.


 https://bodynutrition.org/dmaa/

"Research suggests the use of 1,3-dimethylamylamine may cause vasoconstriction. This means that the blood vessels are constricted to increase blood pressure. "

No where have i ever seen dmaa, caffeine, or other stimulants aid vasodilation.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2748160/

What i picked up from this study is that the caffeine acted as a vasoconstrictor. The only possible way of it acting as a vasodilator is because frequent use and high dosages may increase the adenosine receptors which would increase vasodilation, but not while taking caffeine. It would be a cause and effect type of situation. because your body is so used to the vasoconstriction, it tries to pump more blood and would therefore act as a vasodilator once the caffeine's constriction is worn out.

Where did you see that caffeine and other stimulants can act as a vasodilator?


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## thecoms (Nov 1, 2010)

Need pre workouts as work shifts

Tried loads, best two by far in my humble opinion are stimul8 and zombie juice

I like the ones that get you wired and ready !


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## Fadi (Dec 14, 2010)

StanleyHudson said:


> https://bodynutrition.org/dmaa/
> 
> "Research suggests the use of 1,3-dimethylamylamine may cause vasoconstriction. This means that the blood vessels are constricted to increase blood pressure. "
> 
> ...





StanleyHudson said:


> No where have i ever seen dmaa, caffeine, or other stimulants aid vasodilation.


 You've chosen the National Center for Biotechnology Information (NCBI) to back up your argument, stating that nowhere have you seen caffeine or other stimulants aid in vasodilation.

Let's continue with this ...



StanleyHudson said:


> Where did you see that caffeine and other stimulants can act as a vasodilator?


 The same exact place you went to Sir, i.e. NCBI. I shall provide you with the link in a second or two ...

Please note that I did not set out to argue with you or anyone else re this simple matter. I'm neither interested in an argument nor a debate. Most of all, I am not here to score points or tell others they're wrong. In fact, if you look at the way I've approached my discussion with you, I began by saying that you were correct, but only by 50%, and that I was going to provide UK-M with the other 50%, and that was all that I did.

I hope you're not after an argument or a debate with me Sir, so I shall proceed with the sole intention of a discussion, one that would hopefully benefit anyone who's interested in this subject matter.

Here we go ...

So caffeine has numerous performance enhancement effects, including improved muscle contractibility, increased time to exhaustion, improved concentration, enhanced alertness, and reduced fatigue (or at least the perception of fatigue). What most people don't know is that it can also increase *muscle pumps!* Caffeine acts directly on the endothelial cell, stimulating the production of nitric oxide. Why buy NO supplement when for a fraction of the price, you've got yourself a substance that helps with NO's production at the cellular level!

Caffeine consumption increases the production of the nitric oxide synthase enzyme, which converts the amino acid L-arginine into nitric oxide. Caffeine also increases the force of the muscle contractions by influencing calcium kinetics and the sodium-potassium pump activity in the exercising muscle. Seriously, what more would one want from this awesome substance!

OK, so here's the first study that comes from the same place as the study you've presented: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17126666

Now let us move on to yet another study, this time a full one with all the major and minor details included: https://www.hindawi.com/journals/ijvm/2010/834060/

From the above study, I've copied and pasted the following, simply to answer your remark about not seeing caffeine aiding in vasodilation anywhere (in any study).

A mild and transitory vasoconstrictor effect exists, which depends mainly on the caffeine concentration in the VSMC (vascular smooth muscle cell). However, *the main and predominant effect of caffeine on the vascular wall is vasodilation*, acting equally on the VSMC directly or indirectly and also on the endothelial structure. *At the endothelial level, nitric oxide is liberated and as a result produces arterial vasodilation.* It has been shown that this effect is caused in the presence or absence of preserved endothelial function.

To summarize, the effect of caffeine on the vascular endothelium is a greater expression of NO [21], which has an autocrine effect, acting on the same endothelial cell to increase Ca2+, potentiating the response, and coming out of the endothelial cell to diffuse rapidly to the VSMC in a paracrine fashion [51].

Some authors argue that caffeine produces greater* vasodilation *by acting on the endothelium than on the VSMC [33]. However, in in vitro studies carried out by our group, using rabbit arteries[52] and human internal mammary arteries, we observed that* caffeine induces a potent arterial vasodilator effect in the presence or absence of preserved endothelial function*.

At the end of the day my philosophy regarding studies is as follows: if something is working for me and has been working for me for many years, I would not change it simply because a study proved to the contrary. Similarly, if something has not been working for me and/or it makes me feel bad, no study in the world would change my mind simply because it disagreed with my own personal experiences over the years. Off topic I know, but one exercise that the experts would always tell you to avoid today (in this day and age and not from the old school that I came from), is barbell press behind the neck. If it has worked for me as an Olympic weightlifter and a bodybuilder (and is still working today for hundred of thousands of modern day OWs), why the hell would I drop such an incredibly effective overall shoulders builder simply because modern science discovered performing such an exercise plays havoc with your "vulnerable" shoulder joints!

Subject matter like this and others are much deeper and deserve much more respect than to use the black or white paint brush when discussing.

Again I say, I hope you're not offended by my (now) comeback, as even this was not meant to say hey man, you're wrong and I'm right! If anyone feels that I'm here for a scoring match, then I ask you to please reconsider your stance of me.

Cheers mate, and I sincerely thank you for the discussion.


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## h3ndy (Dec 18, 2017)

Just a simple cup of coffee with one sugar for me that's my pre workout, I use to buy pre workout powder but it never really done much for me tbh, I feel just as alert and buzzing from drinking a simple cup of coffee.

Personally I think pre workout drinks are a big con, they're just full of caffeine. Why pay £25 for a 500g packet of pre workout.


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## mosayf (Jan 24, 2018)

check out that video it will help you a lot


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## swole troll (Apr 15, 2015)

so further to this thread for an absolute stim junkie what is the best blow your bollocks off pre wo

so far i like APS mesomorph but ive used 2 scoops in 4 months and i intend to keep it that way

DMAA is my ace up the sleeve for big PB and 1RM attempts

i've been looking at convict be condemned labz, looks interesting

im a fan of stimulant blends rather than a s**t load of tasty over priced caffeine


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## AestheticManlet (Jun 12, 2012)

swole troll said:


> so further to this thread for an absolute stim junkie what is the best blow your bollocks off pre wo
> 
> so far i like APS mesomorph but ive used 2 scoops in 4 months and i intend to keep it that way
> 
> ...


 I don't rate any stims to be honest myself.

Always end up feeling bad, dmaa gives me anxiety, used to use speed with d hacks ultraburn and that was good for a little while.

Not that I go for big 1rm attempts, I'd probs stick to mtren or halo or something.


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## Abc987 (Sep 26, 2013)

If you can get your hands on it sphinx super t5 are the bollocks But you've gotta like the stimmed out feeling coz they have you buzzing. I've gone through quite a few pots

mom having a break from them

now though and have just got some c4 50x and some citriline malate to add to it!


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## swole troll (Apr 15, 2015)

Ross1991 said:


> I don't rate any stims to be honest myself.
> 
> Always end up feeling bad, dmaa gives me anxiety, used to use speed with d hacks ultraburn and that was good for a little while.
> 
> Not that I go for big 1rm attempts, I'd probs stick to mtren or halo or something.


 i know what you mean by the burnt out feeling but for PL i do feel heavy stimmed products have their place

if i was in it purely for physique with some loose strength based goals then blowing my CNS off the charts probably wouldnt be of much interest to me


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## AestheticManlet (Jun 12, 2012)

Abc987 said:


> If you can get your hands on it sphinx super t5 are the bollocks But you've gotta like the stimmed out feeling coz they have you buzzing. I've gone through quite a few pots
> 
> mom having a break from them
> 
> now though and have just got some c4 50x and some citriline malate to add to it!


 Is the t5 like eca with dmaa or something?


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## swole troll (Apr 15, 2015)

Abc987 said:


> If you can get your hands on it sphinx super t5 are the bollocks But you've gotta like the stimmed out feeling coz they have you buzzing. I've gone through quite a few pots
> 
> mom having a break from them
> 
> now though and have just got some c4 50x and some citriline malate to add to it!


 whats the breakdown matey?


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## swole troll (Apr 15, 2015)

ah if its got DMAA ill pass

as i said before i like to keep that as my real special event type s**t

love the stuff


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## swole troll (Apr 15, 2015)

got my beady eye on this currently

https://www.supplementneeds.co.uk/collections/pre-workout/products/condemned-labz-convict-stim-287g?variant=39148625874


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## AestheticManlet (Jun 12, 2012)

swole troll said:


> got my beady eye on this currently
> 
> https://www.supplementneeds.co.uk/collections/pre-workout/products/condemned-labz-convict-stim-287g?variant=39148625874


 Citrulline Malate is a good shout, very underrated product. I use it every workout without fail. If I could dose it at 20g+ id take it, max I can do is 14g before I get gi distress.


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## Abc987 (Sep 26, 2013)

swole troll said:


> whats the breakdown matey?


 Yeah it does mate

Yohimbine hcl 20mg
Dmaa 20mg
Higenamine 40mg
Caffeine 150mg

the pre workout I just got looks quite good. It's the new improved c4 which was pretty good anyway from what I remember. Haven't tried it for a long time though.

I was gonna but a load of bits and make my but thought it was a decent price £30 for 45 servings and got some CM to add at 10g also.


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## AestheticManlet (Jun 12, 2012)

swole troll said:


> got my beady eye on this currently
> 
> https://www.supplementneeds.co.uk/collections/pre-workout/products/condemned-labz-convict-stim-287g?variant=39148625874


 Rich pianas 5150 was decent, there's 2 different versions I had the proper one and rated it at time.

Iirc was a blend of caffeine's and a few other stims which got removed from one of the versions.

They both have the caffeine blend in (400mg or so totald) but one version has an extra 3-4 ingredients on the label.


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## swole troll (Apr 15, 2015)

Ross1991 said:


> Rich pianas 5150 was decent, there's 2 different versions I had the proper one and rated it at time.
> 
> Iirc was a blend of caffeine's and a few other stims which got removed from one of the versions.
> 
> They both have the caffeine blend in (400mg or so totald) but one version has an extra 3-4 ingredients on the label.


 im struck now between just getting a pre or an oral haha

its just something to kickstart my cycle

pre's enhance my gym performance if ive had a hiatus from them (which i have) so was toying with that but now im leaning more toward either tren suspension or an oral


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## AestheticManlet (Jun 12, 2012)

swole troll said:


> im struck now between just getting a pre or an oral haha
> 
> its just something to kickstart my cycle
> 
> pre's enhance my gym performance if ive had a hiatus from them (which i have) so was toying with that but now im leaning more toward either tren suspension or an oral


 Well the latter is always going to be more effective, especially if strength is your main focus.

mtren is decent, I got a fair few left but I'm not running 5/3/1 now so won't be used on my heaviest days so I'll just chuck them in sparingly when feel I need a pickup.


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## elliot438 (Mar 9, 2013)

I got this the other day and it is crazy. I'm not big on pre's usually as they never do anything for me except this. Hard to find much about it online though.


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## SuperRips (Sep 14, 2015)

elliot438 said:


> I got this the other day and it is crazy. I'm not big on pre's usually as they never do anything for me except this. Hard to find much about it online though.
> 
> View attachment 151985


 Anygood??

cant find decent meso anymore so its either this, Katana or convict I wanna try!


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## elliot438 (Mar 9, 2013)

SuperRips said:


> Anygood??
> 
> cant find decent meso anymore so its either this, Katana or convict I wanna try!


 Definitely recommend it. I think there's 400mg caffeine per scoop too on top of the DMAA and Yohimbine and there's 50 scoops in a tub...


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## SuperRips (Sep 14, 2015)

elliot438 said:


> Definitely recommend it. I think there's 400mg caffeine per scoop too on top of the DMAA and Yohimbine and there's 50 scoops in a tub...


 You got a pic of the ingredients on the tub please buddy?

cant find much about it but sounds good. 400mg of caffeine dooohhhhhhh? :huh:


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## AestheticManlet (Jun 12, 2012)

SuperRips said:


> You got a pic of the ingredients on the tub please buddy?
> 
> cant find much about it but sounds good. 400mg of caffeine dooohhhhhhh? :huh:


 400mg caffeine is fine. Unless you weigh 10 stone. I believe caffeine has performance benefits up to 4mg/kg so if you're sitting at 80-100kg 400mg is about right.


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## SuperRips (Sep 14, 2015)

AestheticManlet said:


> 400mg caffeine is fine. Unless you weigh 10 stone. I believe caffeine has performance benefits up to 4mg/kg so if you're sitting at 80-100kg 400mg is about right.


 f**k me, might give it a blast then. So you saying 400mg in one go?


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## AestheticManlet (Jun 12, 2012)

SuperRips said:


> f**k me, might give it a blast then. So you saying 400mg in one go?


 Yeah I used to do 600-800mg but becomes counter productive but 400mg is fine imo.


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## SuperRips (Sep 14, 2015)

Jeeez that's some caffeine you packed in there.

Didn't your heart wanna bop out and make a runner for it?

I'm ok with around 200 - 250mg, anymore in 1 hit and I feel proper weird!


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## AestheticManlet (Jun 12, 2012)

SuperRips said:


> Jeeez that's some caffeine you packed in there.
> 
> Didn't your heart wanna bop out and make a runner for it?
> 
> I'm ok with around 200 - 250mg, anymore in 1 hit and I feel proper weird!


 I had a high stim tolerance. Used to use all sorts of concoctions. I don't use much stims now prefer pump products and a little stim rather than gurning in the gym :lol:


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## Toranator (May 2, 2016)

AestheticManlet said:


> 2x 200mg caffeine pills = 2-3p each = 4-6p
> 
> 10-12g citrulline Malate (2:1) = £0.02/g = 20-24p
> 
> Max 24-30p a serving :thumbup1:


 How long pre workout do you take this? I've been meaning to try citrulline malate for a while now.


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## AestheticManlet (Jun 12, 2012)

Toranator said:


> How long pre workout do you take this? I've been meaning to try citrulline malate for a while now.


 30 mins. I've actually started using solo Nitrates as my Citrulline from go nutrition was bunk so I have none atm and I'm rating it just as much.


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## Jonk891 (Dec 17, 2016)

AestheticManlet said:


> 30 mins. I've actually started using solo Nitrates as my Citrulline from go nutrition was bunk so I have none atm and I'm rating it just as much.


 I done 6g citrulline with 1g creatine nitrate but never noticed a difference, you think I should up the cirtulline


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## ishadow (Sep 13, 2017)

AestheticManlet said:


> 30 mins. I've actually started using solo Nitrates as my Citrulline from go nutrition was bunk so I have none atm and I'm rating it just as much.


 How could you tell it was bunk mate?


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## Etoboss (Dec 1, 2015)

I just got a sample of this guys from my local supplement shop, Taste is nice! pumps was crazy!! Energy tons!, no fatigue! Even though my test levels are around 5 it's the only thing I have tried that actually worked for me, think the ingredients and doses look spot on! No tiny amounts like most others

Per serving

100mg l-Norvaline

6g citrulline Malate

3G Beta alanine

2g Betaine hcl

3G Glycerol monosterate

2g taurine

4g creatine mono

300mg caffeine


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## AestheticManlet (Jun 12, 2012)

Jonk891 said:


> I done 6g citrulline with 1g creatine nitrate but never noticed a difference, you think I should up the cirtulline


 If it's Citrulline Malate 2:1 then 10g. Nitrates should be dosed up to around 12mg/kg of bw and 1g Creatine nitrate is around 312mg Nitrates iirc.



ishadow said:


> How could you tell it was bunk mate?


 Because it's most certainly beta alanine or a mix of stuff, it's crystallised almost.


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## Dr Gearhead (Aug 15, 2012)

Etoboss said:


> I just got a sample of this guys from my local supplement shop, Taste is nice! pumps was crazy!! Energy tons!, no fatigue! Even though my test levels are around 5 it's the only thing I have tried that actually worked for me, think the ingredients and doses look spot on! No tiny amounts like most others
> 
> Per serving
> 
> ...


 What product is that ?


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## AestheticManlet (Jun 12, 2012)

Etoboss said:


> I just got a sample of this guys from my local supplement shop, Taste is nice! pumps was crazy!! Energy tons!, no fatigue! Even though my test levels are around 5 it's the only thing I have tried that actually worked for me, think the ingredients and doses look spot on! No tiny amounts like most others
> 
> Per serving
> 
> ...


 Be the Citrulline Malate and the glycerol monostearste which is a cell volimiser pretty much.

The other stuff won't do much except the caffeine. Norvaline is an arginase inhibitor on paper it looks like the go to thing to add to a pump stack but it doesn't work like it suggests - used to buy it in bulk when I made my own concoctions.

Im looking for an ok premade myself but too many pwo out there I need to do some research :lol:


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## AestheticManlet (Jun 12, 2012)

elliot438 said:


> Definitely recommend it. I think there's 400mg caffeine per scoop too on top of the DMAA and Yohimbine and there's 50 scoops in a tub...


 Might look at this. £39 for 50 servings isn't too bad.


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## AestheticManlet (Jun 12, 2012)

@elliot438 you still using this mate how's it working for you?

I got ingredients list from a seller looks like a total stim Preworkout.

Looks like dmaa, yohimbine hcl, caffeine. Plus some sort of "stimulant matrix" on top of that? Doses not disclosed it's a prop blend, looks lethal as fvck. :lol:


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## Rhinoceros (Mar 24, 2018)

Must be a local brand but this is the best I tried by chance when I was over Ireland. Company has no website and can only seem to get it over there or Ebay. Ill post ingredients if anyone is interested


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## SuperRips (Sep 14, 2015)

Rhinoceros said:


> Must be a local brand but this is the best I tried by chance when I was over Ireland. Company has no website and can only seem to get it over there or Ebay. Ill post ingredients if anyone is interested
> 
> View attachment 153239


 Yep post that s**t :thumbup1:


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## Rhinoceros (Mar 24, 2018)

No idea how it compares with others ingredients though haha. Can't trust the ingredient list ever since Mr Hyde was useless but on paper sounded the best out them all


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## Rhinoceros (Mar 24, 2018)

Massive mood enhancer the rest of the day as well


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## elliot438 (Mar 9, 2013)

AestheticManlet said:


> @elliot438 you still using this mate how's it working for you?
> 
> I got ingredients list from a seller looks like a total stim Preworkout.
> 
> ...


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## Brutal1 (Jan 25, 2011)

I tried Lft sht today and it blew me fooking head off!! clean off my face and paranoid all day, cardio was an absolute doddle though


----------



## Rhinoceros (Mar 24, 2018)

Brutal1 said:


> I tried Lft sht today and it blew me fooking head off!! clean off my face and paranoid all day, cardio was an absolute doddle though


 Always wondered why it causes paranoia. Makes me think the worst sometimes haha


----------



## SuperRips (Sep 14, 2015)

Has it defo got dmaa in it?


----------



## elliot438 (Mar 9, 2013)

SuperRips said:


> Has it defo got dmaa in it?


 yes


----------



## DappaDonDave (Dec 2, 2013)

Having recently run out of PWO at work, I have found the effects are mainly psychological.

Ive been using protein dynamix PWO (its a basic blend of stuff really, £9.99 in home bargains though. So pretty cheap!) and found having that chemically sweet taste in my mouth as I lift. A reminder and a trigger to lift!

Its now probably an anchor to be fair so my brain knows, drink PWO, go lift!


----------



## monkeybiker (Jul 21, 2010)

I'll just have a coffee. I've tried jacked in the past but had a drousy feeling afterwards so didn't like using it. I think your better off making sure your eating right and sleeping well rather than rely on pre-workouts.


----------



## Etoboss (Dec 1, 2015)

Dr Gearhead said:


> What product is that ?


 It's Called overdrive nutrition px1 mate. Jp and another pro designed the ingredient mix ratio or summit. My sample all gone need more but it's not been manufactured yet craving for it!! I have tried s**t loads of these pre workouts and this has been by far the best for me mainly coz there is no crash at all. I like the fact there is heavy amounts of the ingredients in this. Most will use like 1500 Malate, 1000 creatine, 500mg betaline ect this is all up at the highest points imo and going off study's done on the amounts involved.

Plus it's ment to be like £30/tub 30 servings that I find well cheap for what's in it.


----------



## Rhinoceros (Mar 24, 2018)

elliot438 said:


> yes


 Assume it's a US brand. Finishing off my one I'm convinced already haha. £40 a tub but whatever for the old jack3d feeling


----------



## Rhinoceros (Mar 24, 2018)

About to try it tonight


----------



## Rhinoceros (Mar 24, 2018)

elliot438 said:


> I got this the other day and it is crazy. I'm not big on pre's usually as they never do anything for me except this. Hard to find much about it online though.
> 
> View attachment 151985





SuperRips said:


> You got a pic of the ingredients on the tub please buddy?
> 
> cant find much about it but sounds good. 400mg of caffeine dooohhhhhhh? :huh:


 It completely f**ked me. Don't know whether it was the caffeine or whatever but got me really jittery and anxious. Been through loads of pres so must have something different in it haha


----------



## SuperRips (Sep 14, 2015)

Rhinoceros said:


> It completely f**ked me. Don't know whether it was the caffeine or whatever but got me really jittery and anxious. Been through loads of pres so must have something different in it haha


 Did you start on a lower serving or straight into the recommended dose?

Using that Convict pre at the min and it's alright but miss my dmaa


----------



## Rhinoceros (Mar 24, 2018)

SuperRips said:


> Did you start on a lower serving or straight into the recommended dose?
> 
> Using that Convict pre at the min and it's alright but miss my dmaa


 Just a normal serving. Every preworkout makes out it's the strongest so thought nothing of it. Could not sleep at all paranoid as f**k haha. Was still posting on here at 3am


----------



## Jonk891 (Dec 17, 2016)

Jackd up is good it's a copy of jackd 3d with the same doses


----------



## nbfootball65 (Nov 18, 2014)

I have been off stims for a month or so. Just have been taking noxygen for pumps.


----------



## AestheticManlet (Jun 12, 2012)

Rhinoceros said:


> Just a normal serving. Every preworkout makes out it's the strongest so thought nothing of it. Could not sleep at all paranoid as f**k haha. Was still posting on here at 3am


 Might purchase it when I'm out of my current pre which I just use for flavouring to mask the taste of my Nitrates.

Might as well add more paranoia to my tren cut :lol:


----------



## Rhinoceros (Mar 24, 2018)

AestheticManlet said:


> Might purchase it when I'm out of my current pre which I just use for flavouring to mask the taste of my Nitrates.
> 
> Might as well add more paranoia to my tren cut :lol:


 Trying again tonight with half scoop hopefully will have some use to me haha


----------



## AestheticManlet (Jun 12, 2012)

Rhinoceros said:


> Trying again tonight with half scoop hopefully will have some use to me haha


 Report back with your findings :thumbup1:


----------



## SuperRips (Sep 14, 2015)

Rhinoceros said:


> Trying again tonight with half scoop hopefully will have some use to me haha


 Taking at night may be where you going wrong with them ingredients lol


----------



## SuperRips (Sep 14, 2015)

Jonk891 said:


> Jackd up is good it's a copy of jackd 3d with the same doses


 You got a source for UK??

Seems all the dmaa pre's are being taken off the shelf too quick


----------



## Jonk891 (Dec 17, 2016)

SuperRips said:


> You got a source for UK??
> 
> Seems all the dmaa pre's are being taken off the shelf too quick


 I had it from america on ebay and shipped to the uk it was about 30 pound with shipping. Customs stopped it and let it through


----------



## Rhinoceros (Mar 24, 2018)

AestheticManlet said:


> Report back with your findings :thumbup1:


 So no paranoia now but workout cut a bit short because heart was beating weirdly and couldn't get a breath. Couldn't get a pump also which I assume is stim related. Sacking it off now never thought I'd say a preworkout was too strong for me haha. I'm near enough 17 stone and half scoop ended me



SuperRips said:


> Taking at night may be where you going wrong with them ingredients lol


 Caffeine/any other pre never been an issue for me at night. Must be whatever else is in the blend. Attempting a sleep now haha


----------



## PSevens2017 (Apr 2, 2017)

I was using this stuff called "Hercules" back in 2014/15. Christ on a bike!! I'd take it at 11am and go work out. I'd still be awake at 02-00am. Stopped taking it in the end. Rancid stuff


----------



## AestheticManlet (Jun 12, 2012)

Rhinoceros said:


> So no paranoia now but workout cut a bit short because heart was beating weirdly and couldn't get a breath. Couldn't get a pump also which I assume is stim related. Sacking it off now never thought I'd say a preworkout was too strong for me haha. I'm near enough 17 stone and half scoop ended me
> 
> Caffeine/any other pre never been an issue for me at night. Must be whatever else is in the blend. Attempting a sleep now haha


 Ahh right I might still try it. Need a boost on my cut. I'll be stacking my usual Nitrates with it anyway for guaranteed pumps.


----------



## SuperRips (Sep 14, 2015)

Rhinoceros said:


> So no paranoia now but workout cut a bit short because heart was beating weirdly and couldn't get a breath. Couldn't get a pump also which I assume is stim related. Sacking it off now never thought I'd say a preworkout was too strong for me haha. I'm near enough 17 stone and half scoop ended me


 Hmmmm.....think ill give this one a miss 

trying to source some jackd up now


----------



## Abc987 (Sep 26, 2013)

If you can source it just get some sphinx super t5. 1 tab + 10g citrline malate is a great pre and cheaper than any tub of powdered pre


----------



## AestheticManlet (Jun 12, 2012)

Abc987 said:


> If you can source it just get some sphinx super t5. 1 tab + 10g citrline malate is a great pre and cheaper than any tub of powdered pre


 Cm crew!

I haven't used it for a while after getting stung with bunk go nutrition cm/beta alanine whatever it is.


----------



## Abc987 (Sep 26, 2013)

AestheticManlet said:


> Cm crew!
> 
> I haven't used it for a while after getting stung with bunk go nutrition cm/beta alanine whatever it is.


 Yep love the pump. Didn't think creatine nitrate added much though!

I just use the mp stuff. Wait till it's on sale and get a couple of packs. Stuff lasts agars and Costs f**k all if in sale

Ive just got home off my hols so back in the gym tomorrow and have a tub of sphinx t5s to use. Just weighed myself and I've added 11 3/4 lbs in 11 days so need to shed some fat whilst cruising!


----------



## AestheticManlet (Jun 12, 2012)

Abc987 said:


> Yep love the pump. Didn't think creatine nitrate added much though!
> 
> I just use the mp stuff. Wait till it's on sale and get a couple of packs. Stuff lasts agars and Costs f**k all if in sale
> 
> Ive just got home off my hols so back in the gym tomorrow and have a tub of sphinx t5s to use. Just weighed myself and I've added 11 3/4 lbs in 11 days so need to shed some fat whilst cruising!


 Haha yeah I've used s**t load of cm. 11 pounds in 11 days eat normal for a few days you prob lose most of that.

Creatine nitrate is my go to pump supp atm. I chuck in a cheap pwo for flavouring because it tastes nasty.

I also started dosing it at clinical doses and love it. Roughly 12.8mg/kg and I need around 4g Creatine nitrate for that.


----------



## faipdeooiad (Apr 24, 2012)

Lads & Lasses, we've got Wild Thing 25% off on the new version with Glycergrow (Rocket Pop flavour)

https://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/topic/314821-25-off-wild-thing-now-with-glycergrow/?do=embed&embedDo=getNewComment


----------



## faipdeooiad (Apr 24, 2012)

faipdeooiad said:


> Lads & Lasses, we've got Wild Thing 25% off on the new version with Glycergrow (Rocket Pop flavour)
> 
> https://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/topic/314821-25-off-wild-thing-now-with-glycergrow/?do=embed&embedDo=getNewComment


 24 hours left on this


----------



## Levorg (Sep 27, 2017)

DMAA tabs from tm with a caffeine pill, an Albuterol tab and some beta alanine and citrulline malate.


----------



## jacksong (Aug 25, 2010)

Whats the current most potent PWO we have then??


----------



## Leeds23 (Oct 2, 2012)

Imperial Nutrition Excelsior

crazy energy at 2 scoops but can be very jittery, anxious, with a paranoid comedown i take a 400mg l theanine tab towards the end of the workout to smooth things out but even a couple xanax and diazepam, & sleep-eze later, i was not sleeping for s**t.


----------



## faipdeooiad (Apr 24, 2012)

sounds.. great - anxiety, paranoia and so strong you need medication to sleep.

where do i sign up?


----------



## CarpeDiem76 (Apr 23, 2015)

Fancy like giving Rich Pianas "Kill It" a go, theres 2 versions though, EU or Reloaded, anyone tried both or knows what may be best ?


----------



## Rhinoceros (Mar 24, 2018)

CarpeDiem76 said:


> Fancy like giving Rich Pianas "Kill It" a go, theres 2 versions though, EU or Reloaded, anyone tried both or knows what may be best ?


 Pure shite. Was convinced to try it even though I thought celeb bodybuilder supplements were garbage and I was proven right


----------



## Rhinoceros (Mar 24, 2018)

Mr Hyde also an extremely bad preworkout


----------



## CarpeDiem76 (Apr 23, 2015)

Looks good in writing, got some pure dmaa tabs and mtren coming but not taking them all the time so need a decent pwo


----------



## CarpeDiem76 (Apr 23, 2015)

Decided to go for the one that SwolTrol was interested in "Condemned Labz Convict" sounds pretty good.


----------



## Dr Gearhead (Aug 15, 2012)

Leeds23 said:


> Imperial Nutrition Excelsior
> 
> crazy energy at 2 scoops but can be very jittery, anxious, with a paranoid comedown i take a 400mg l theanine tab towards the end of the workout to smooth things out but even a couple xanax and diazepam, & sleep-eze later, i was not sleeping for s**t.


 I really want to try this but it's pricey, especially if 2 scoops is needed. What's it like at 1 scoop ?


----------



## CarpeDiem76 (Apr 23, 2015)

swole troll said:


> got my beady eye on this currently
> 
> https://www.supplementneeds.co.uk/collections/pre-workout/products/condemned-labz-convict-stim-287g?variant=39148625874


 May I ask why you think this is good and i'll tell you my review on it after using it for the 1st time this morning.


----------



## Leeds23 (Oct 2, 2012)

Dr Gearhead said:


> I really want to try this but it's pricey, especially if 2 scoops is needed. What's it like at 1 scoop ?


 1 scoop isn't anywhere near as bad, can get a decent workout in if mixed with a less potent pre like Prolific with L-Theanine included but even then it seems to have some sort of long lasting energy, far in the excess but a lot smoother throughout. I don't know what ingredients causing this, as there's a few uncommon and similar ingredients to Hydrazine in it and that wasn't anywhere as bad just a bit chatty and speedy. If you are gonna use it then use it early. But probably my best workout so far and the very first time my lazy cousin wanted to stay in the gym longer than me haha! I've been using it with 4 or 5 of the TM 20mg DMAA tabs and some Huperzine-A though, so it may very well be a different experience for you. I Should mention I have anxiety to begin with anyway, so it wouldn't affect someone negatively as much with a normal functioning brain :lol:


----------



## Dr Gearhead (Aug 15, 2012)

Leeds23 said:


> 1 scoop isn't anywhere near as bad, can get a decent workout in if mixed with a less potent pre like Prolific with L-Theanine included but even then it seems to have some sort of long lasting energy, far in the excess but a lot smoother throughout. I don't know what ingredients causing this, as there's a few uncommon and similar ingredients to Hydrazine in it and that wasn't anywhere as bad just a bit chatty and speedy. If you are gonna use it then use it early. But probably my best workout so far and the very first time my lazy cousin wanted to stay in the gym longer than me haha! I've been using it with 4 or 5 of the TM 20mg DMAA tabs and some Huperzine-A though, so it may very well be a different experience for you. I Should mention I have anxiety to begin with anyway, so it wouldn't affect someone negatively as much with a normal functioning brain :lol:


 My plan was to stack it with a hydrazine. You think that would be a good combo ?

thanks for the info


----------



## SuperRips (Sep 14, 2015)

CarpeDiem76 said:


> May I ask why you think this is good and i'll tell you my review on it after using it for the 1st time this morning.


 I'll add mine aswell


----------



## Jack of blades (Apr 2, 2017)

superdantheman said:


> What's currently the best pre workout that gives clean energy plus pump? Ideally something with dmaa or a derivative that's works in the same way? I looked at mesomorph but can't see it has dmaa in it anymore?
> 
> Thanks


 I prefer dirty energy


----------



## Jack of blades (Apr 2, 2017)

Speed is the best preworkout


----------



## Leeds23 (Oct 2, 2012)

Dr Gearhead said:


> My plan was to stack it with a hydrazine. You think that would be a good combo ?
> 
> thanks for the info


 Probably not mate. Stim overload! But I am a bit of a stim junkie. Waiting for someone to combine DMAA, Amp Citrate, Eria Jarenisis, Acacia Rigidula and Kigelia Africana . I wonder what would happen?


----------



## Leeds23 (Oct 2, 2012)

faipdeooiad said:


> sounds.. great - anxiety, paranoia and so strong you need medication to sleep.
> 
> where do i sign up?


 Take the good with the bad like anything in life. Oh i forgot you're a rep so everything comes down to promotion of ones own product/stock while shitting on others.

Remember Craze, the majority of the pre workout audience aren't after an all rounder above average product.... they want insanity.


----------



## BioSynth (Sep 17, 2014)

Leeds23 said:


> Take the good with the bad like anything in life. Oh i forgot you're a rep so everything comes down to promotion of ones own product/stock while shitting on others.
> 
> Remember Craze, the majority of the pre workout audience aren't after an all rounder above average product.... they want insanity.


 Lol your post didn't exactly make me want to run out and buy it either.


----------



## swole troll (Apr 15, 2015)

CarpeDiem76 said:


> May I ask why you think this is good and i'll tell you my review on it after using it for the 1st time this morning.


 cant even remem ber posting this tbh

does it contain DMAA or DMHA?

theyre basically the only 2 compounds outside of caffeine that are worth using in pre workouts imo and if its not got either of those then its just tasty caffeine at an inflated price


----------



## CarpeDiem76 (Apr 23, 2015)

No no DMAA or DMHA but this stuff really is mental, whether it was because I had taken some DMAA pills the previous day and they were still in my system somewhere I don't know but this stuff really kicked my arse and I have taken some hardcore s**t in my time, I went all in for the full scoop which says tablespoon on the scoop, I wished I had done what they reccommended to do and try the teaspoon measure as I felt like I was back in the 90s at a rave rushing my tits off, it really was some experience, I had never worked out so hard and lifted so heavy before, this lasted for the full 2 hr session which started at 10am, I didn't finally chill out properly until 8pm, would love to hear if anyone else has done the full scoop ? The following day I took just the teaspoon measure and it gave me just a lovely clean energised 2hr workout, maybe somewhere in between the teaspoon and tablespoon measure I will try next time but with extreme caution, this stuff really wouldn't be out of place in Ibiza !


----------



## BioSynth (Sep 17, 2014)

I've got performance Charge at the moment and been taking it pre for two weeks but last night it got a bit late and I had a heaped scoop at 10:30pm workout till 11:30 and straight to bed. Thoughts and "dreams" were like on speed and jumped out of bed once because I was sure we were being burgeled. Saw every hour and feel tired today. Maybe a combination of the warm humid weather and restless kids but bloody hell. Smashed legs though so that's something I guess.


----------



## faipdeooiad (Apr 24, 2012)

Leeds23 said:


> Take the good with the bad like anything in life. Oh i forgot you're a rep so everything comes down to promotion of ones own product/stock while shitting on others.
> 
> Remember Craze, the majority of the pre workout audience aren't after an all rounder above average product.... they want insanity.


 Not at all - i'm all for strong pre-workouts, I used to use them regularly, but anxiety and paranoia after using it? That's not shitting on anything, it's questioning such harsh comedowns from a pre-workout. If we sold that, I wouldn't touch it and wouldn't be recommending it to anycunt


----------



## nbfootball65 (Nov 18, 2014)

Any crazy new pre workouts out there? I've been just mixing half of scoop of nitraflex and half of scoop of mesomorph. Plus hydromax.

https://www.samedaysupplements.com/hydromax-glycerol-by-aps-nutrition-180-tabs.html


----------



## Sasnak (Oct 11, 2016)

nbfootball65 said:


> Any crazy new pre workouts out there? I've been just mixing half of scoop of nitraflex and half of scoop of mesomorph. Plus hydromax.


 I'm not taking the p1ss here because of your other post but 20mg yohimbine hcl if you've not tried it.


----------



## doopy (Jun 2, 2017)

I'm finishing my god of rage tube - see label :









and want to get a new one, guys hit me up with the strongest s**t u have


----------



## Andyp75 (Oct 17, 2017)

Bucked Up - they do a high stim called WOKE AF - apparently it mimics Dmaa with two stims it has in there.

no crash either which is always a bonus!!

Deer Antler Velvet, has IGF1 &2 (as mentioned already), Cool ingredient.

Anyway, it's my go to pre now!


----------



## RexEverthing (Apr 4, 2014)

Bulk Powders have a sale on (of course they do, it's a day of the week ending with "y"...) and I was looking at their pre workouts but they've got a few - anyone tried them?

@AestheticManlet as a man who enjoys a pre, whatcha think of the ingredients?


----------



## karbonk (Jan 7, 2009)

coffee, keep it simple and effective, more s**t you put into your system the harder your liver and kidneys are working!


----------



## AestheticManlet (Jun 12, 2012)

RexEverthing said:


> Bulk Powders have a sale on (of course they do, it's a day of the week ending with "y"...) and I was looking at their pre workouts but they've got a few - anyone tried them?
> 
> @AestheticManlet as a man who enjoys a pre, whatcha think of the ingredients?


 Depends what you want from a pre.

I make my own cheap and effective.

15g EAAs

10g citrulline malate (2:1)

400mg caffeine

Sometimes add some agmatine, glycerol or nitrates for added benefits slowly using up my stash.


----------



## Pancake' (Aug 30, 2012)

RexEverthing said:


> Bulk Powders have a sale on (of course they do, it's a day of the week ending with "y"...) and I was looking at their pre workouts but they've got a few - anyone tried them?
> 
> @AestheticManlet as a man who enjoys a pre, whatcha think of the ingredients?


 Check out the MVPRE thread I started, this seems the most potent right now. triumphs total war apparently, I'm yet to try some.


----------



## RexEverthing (Apr 4, 2014)

AestheticManlet said:


> Depends what you want from a pre.
> 
> I make my own cheap and effective.
> 
> ...


 I train late most evenings like 830-930 so don't want anything to leave me feeling stimmed to fvck. Normally just a can of monster or strong coffee.

Something with some energy (maybe 200mg caffeine per serving) with good pump and maybe focus.

Mainly slight energy increase and good pumps. What you recommend? Caffeine tabs and citrulline malate?


----------



## AestheticManlet (Jun 12, 2012)

RexEverthing said:


> I train late most evenings like 830-930 so don't want anything to leave me feeling stimmed to fvck. Normally just a can of monster or strong coffee.
> 
> Something with some energy (maybe 200mg caffeine per serving) with good pump and maybe focus.
> 
> Mainly slight energy increase and good pumps. What you recommend? Caffeine tabs and citrulline malate?


 1 or 2x caffeine tabs and 10g cm I'd recommend. I use flavoured EAAs to mask the cm taste as I used to use a cheap pwo instead for flavouring and caffeine but didn't want all the extra crap that's usually in them


----------



## RexEverthing (Apr 4, 2014)

AestheticManlet said:


> 1 or 2x caffeine tabs and 10g cm I'd recommend. I use flavoured EAAs to mask the cm taste as I used to use a cheap pwo instead for flavouring and caffeine but didn't want all the extra crap that's usually in them


 Cheapest place for CM?


----------



## Vinny (Nov 18, 2012)

RexEverthing said:


> Cheapest place for CM?


 Bulk powders on one of there sales probably.


----------



## Vinny (Nov 18, 2012)

AestheticManlet said:


> 1 or 2x caffeine tabs and 10g cm I'd recommend. I use flavoured EAAs to mask the cm taste as I used to use a cheap pwo instead for flavouring and caffeine but didn't want all the extra crap that's usually in them


 Just ordered myself some Lendens caffeine tablets. Gonna try the 200mg caffine with 10mg CM on Thursday


----------



## AestheticManlet (Jun 12, 2012)

RexEverthing said:


> Cheapest place for CM?


 Peak supplements on Amazon is legit and very well priced.


----------



## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

RexEverthing said:


> I train late most evenings like 830-930 so don't want anything to leave me feeling stimmed to fvck. Normally just a can of monster or strong coffee.
> 
> Something with some energy (maybe 200mg caffeine per serving) with good pump and maybe focus.
> 
> Mainly slight energy increase and good pumps. What you recommend? Caffeine tabs and citrulline malate?


 Bear in mind taking caffeine that late may negatively affect sleep quality, as distinct to whether you're able to fall asleep or not. This is more true the higher the caffeine dose but I'd consider avoiding caffeine completely personally.

This video below may be of interest to people taking caffeine pre-workout. There is far more of interest in the video but the main take-homes are that whilst it takes 1-3 mg per kg bodyweight to suppress tiredness, it takes more like 4- 6mg per kg to improve lifting performance. Although experiment with increasing dose gradually rather jumping straight to a high dose.


----------



## RexEverthing (Apr 4, 2014)

Ultrasonic said:


> Bear in mind taking caffeine that late may negatively affect sleep quality, as distinct to whether you're able to fall asleep or not. This is more true the higher the caffeine dose but I'd consider avoiding caffeine completely personally.
> 
> This video below may be of interest to people taking caffeine pre-workout. There is far more of interest in the video but the main take-homes are that whilst it takes 1-3 mg per kg bodyweight to suppress tiredness, it takes more like 4- 6mg per kg to improve lifting performance. Although experiment with increasing dose gradually rather jumping straight to a high dose.


 Great info as always mate. Given life constraints etc I can only train later but the rub is I'm then tired. Sleep is prettyuneffected on what I normally have. I think 200mg caffeine for energy and citrulline malate might be interesting so may have a pop


----------



## faipdeooiad (Apr 24, 2012)

RexEverthing said:


> Bulk Powders have a sale on (of course they do, it's a day of the week ending with "y"...) and I was looking at their pre workouts but they've got a few - anyone tried them?
> 
> @AestheticManlet as a man who enjoys a pre, whatcha think of the ingredients?


 Elevate's good - cherry cola FTW


----------



## RexEverthing (Apr 4, 2014)

faipdeooiad said:


> Elevate's good - cherry cola FTW


 Link and discount code...? :whistling:


----------



## faipdeooiad (Apr 24, 2012)

RexEverthing said:


> Link and discount code...? :whistling:


 BulkPowders.co.uk

discount codes on the main page


----------



## AestheticManlet (Jun 12, 2012)

Ultrasonic said:


> Bear in mind taking caffeine that late may negatively affect sleep quality, as distinct to whether you're able to fall asleep or not. This is more true the higher the caffeine dose but I'd consider avoiding caffeine completely personally.
> 
> This video below may be of interest to people taking caffeine pre-workout. There is far more of interest in the video but the main take-homes are that whilst it takes 1-3 mg per kg bodyweight to suppress tiredness, it takes more like 4- 6mg per kg to improve lifting performance. Although experiment with increasing dose gradually rather jumping straight to a high dose.


 Upped my caffeine because of that video :thumbup1:


----------



## RexEverthing (Apr 4, 2014)

faipdeooiad said:


> BulkPowders.co.uk
> 
> discount codes on the main page


 Ahhhhh my bad - thought it was one of the ones you were pimping.

Ive ordered some caffeine tabs and some CM 2:1. If I die it's @AestheticManletfault.


----------



## AestheticManlet (Jun 12, 2012)

RexEverthing said:


> Ahhhhh my bad - thought it was one of the ones you were pimping.
> 
> Ive ordered some caffeine tabs and some CM 2:1. If I die it's @AestheticManletfault.


 You'll enjoy it baby x


----------



## nbfootball65 (Nov 18, 2014)

I tried a sample of ESP Extreme and wow. This one was intense. Going to pick some up at Same Day Supplements.

https://www.samedaysupplements.com/esp-extreme-pre-workout-by-metabolic-nutrition.html


----------



## RexEverthing (Apr 4, 2014)

AestheticManlet said:


> You'll enjoy it baby x


 How far in advance of training for CM / caffeine mate? 30min sufficient?


----------



## AestheticManlet (Jun 12, 2012)

RexEverthing said:


> How far in advance of training for CM / caffeine mate? 30min sufficient?


 Yeah 30 is fine


----------



## RexEverthing (Apr 4, 2014)

AestheticManlet said:


> Yeah 30 is fine


 Boom


----------



## GAiinz (Dec 13, 2014)

Bumping this thread, Come on guys want something like the good old jack3d that we can get in the UK but not pay an arm and leg for. Seems it's gonna be sphinx t5 but that hard to get what else is good shvt?


----------



## Sasnak (Oct 11, 2016)

GAiinz said:


> Bumping this thread, Come on guys want something like the good old jack3d that we can get in the UK but not pay an arm and leg for. Seems it's gonna be sphinx t5 but that hard to get what else is good shvt?


 Not used but I'm told this is a comparable pwo with dmaa

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Chikara-Samurai-50serv-Strongest-Pre-Workout-Bodybuilding-Supplement-Free-P-P-/183196274379


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## ThatsLife (Nov 26, 2018)

^^I have this preworkout currently. While it is very stimulating I don't think it contains any DMAA. There is nothing like the euphoria and tunnel vision I used to get when I had taken DMAA, just an overstimulated, jittery feeling.


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## thecoms (Nov 1, 2010)

Superpump is good to go :thumb


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

Best preworkout - it depends what you specifically want from your preworkout.

Most of the things discussed are fine with good evidence behind them as individual ingredients -

caffeine - decent stim, provided you don't overdo it in which case the rise in BP and CNS stimulation can make highly draining exercises more difficult, not easier. Moderate dose is best. Also can slightly aid fat burning when in a kcal deficit.

citrulline malate - good for pumps. You can add arginine for greater effect or other NO stimulating aminos.

tyrosine - non-CNS stim that can increase dopamine and your mental drive.

taurine - can increase your sense of focus

rhodiola rosea - adaptogen that can increase drive and performance, and also give you a distinct buzz. Has to be a 3% salidroside/1% rosavin preparation, not the 3% rosavin/1% salidoroside prep.

EAAs - highly available amino acids in perfect ratio for hypertrophy,. Can also reduce DOMS. Good idea to take if training fasted or more than 4 hours since eating. Can be mixed with some fast carbs like dextrose, maltodextrin or isomaltulose too.

l-carnitine l-tartrate - amino that increases androgen sensitivity and improves power output when taken as a pre-workout.

electrolytes - useful for staving off fatigue in long sessions, hot weather training, or fasted training.

Things that are often in Pre-workouts that don't need to be -

creatine - creatine is one of the best supplements out there, but it's better post workout than pre-workout. No harm in taking it pre, and you'll still get benefit, but the most optimal dosing time is post workout.

beta alanine - again, definitely an effective supplement for increasing workload for high intensity moderate rep sets to failure, but is optimally absorbed when taken with food away from the workout. Just like creatine though it will work if you take it pre-, is just not the optimal protocol.

vitamins - A, C, E - high dose synthetic vitamin supplements have been shown to slightly blunt the adaptive response to exercise when taken as part of a pre-workout or immediate post workout supplement regime. Note that similar large doses of the same vitamins when coming from food sources at the same times does not appear to have this blunting effect. The issue with the supplements seems to be that they absorb quickly in a large bolus, rather than as the slow absorption rate you'd get from a food source.

There are bound to be other decent supps I've missed too, but those are the main ones with good evidence behind them.


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## AestheticManlet (Jun 12, 2012)

dtlv said:


> Best preworkout - it depends what you specifically want from your preworkout.
> 
> Most of the things discussed are fine with good evidence behind them as individual ingredients -
> 
> ...


 What's your thoughts on Hbcd as carb source?

I've read that it's the best carb source for digesting, good for intra workout? Is pricey though.

I currently use Maltodextrin post workout, I'm sure it doesn't agree with me that well though. Get some slight stomach issues but nothing major.


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

AestheticManlet said:


> What's your thoughts on Hbcd as carb source?
> 
> I've read that it's the best carb source for digesting, good for intra workout? Is pricey though.
> 
> I currently use Maltodextrin post workout, I'm sure it doesn't agree with me that well though. Get some slight stomach issues but nothing major.


 It certainly does deliver faster absorption, and thus will replenish glycogen even more quickly than malto or dex, but whether that really has any meaningful real world benefit is another question.

Is possible though that it might ease the stomach issues. Malto has a higher osmolality, meaning that, if there isn't enough water consumed with it, it draws more water into the gut to create a balance of osomotic pressures before it can then be absorbed - branched dextrin has a lower osmolality meaning it draws in or needs less water before it can be absorbed.

It's this drawing in of fluids to the intestine that can cause unpleasant sensations in the gut with highly osmolal things like malto.


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## GAiinz (Dec 13, 2014)

ThatsLife said:


> ^^I have this preworkout currently. While it is very stimulating I don't think it contains any DMAA. There is nothing like the euphoria and tunnel vision I used to get when I had taken DMAA, just an overstimulated, jittery feeling.


 That's a shame any other good preworkout?



ThatsLife said:


> ^^I have this preworkout currently. While it is very stimulating I don't think it contains any DMAA. There is nothing like the euphoria and tunnel vision I used to get when I had taken DMAA, just an overstimulated, jittery feeling.


 Any other good preworkout ?


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## GAiinz (Dec 13, 2014)

dtlv said:


> Best preworkout - it depends what you specifically want from your preworkout.
> 
> Most of the things discussed are fine with good evidence behind them as individual ingredients -
> 
> ...


 None of them get you going though like jack3d in the good days of dmaa


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## ThatsLife (Nov 26, 2018)

GAiinz said:


> None of them get you going though like jack3d in the good days of dmaa


 Jacked up was pretty decent, think it was a clone of the original Jack3d, I believe it has been reformulated without the DMAA now though. I'm still searching for something that gives me that feeling like I used to get off the original Jack3d. Might have to look at sourcing pure DMAA. I reckon itd'd be easier just to get some speed! lol.


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## AestheticManlet (Jun 12, 2012)

ThatsLife said:


> Jacked up was pretty decent, think it was a clone of the original Jack3d, I believe it has been reformulated without the DMAA now though. I'm still searching for something that gives me that feeling like I used to get off the original Jack3d. Might have to look at sourcing pure DMAA. I reckon itd'd be easier just to get some speed! lol.


 Samurai chikara I have half a tub still, gets me too wired.

Dmaa, 400mg or so caffeine and some yohimbine hcl per 5g serving


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## ThatsLife (Nov 26, 2018)

AestheticManlet said:


> Samurai chikara I have half a tub still, gets me too wired.
> 
> Dmaa, 400mg or so caffeine and some yohimbine hcl per 5g serving


 Yeah it gets me wired too, not in a nice way though. Other DMAA pre's I had in the past gave me a slight amphetamine-like euphoria and focus.


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## ThatsLife (Nov 26, 2018)

Maybe I'm just looking back with rose tinted glasses, but today's pre's just don't seem the same.


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

GAiinz said:


> None of them get you going though like jack3d in the good days of dmaa


 True dat. If you just want a massive buzz then you can't beat those kinds of supplement!


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## AestheticManlet (Jun 12, 2012)

ThatsLife said:


> Yeah it gets me wired too, not in a nice way though. Other DMAA pre's I had in the past gave me a slight amphetamine-like euphoria and focus.


 Might be worth mentioning a level scoop of that pre is more than 5g it's more like 7-8 iirc. I use mg scales to dose so if you're just chucking a scoop you may be overdosing.


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## ThatsLife (Nov 26, 2018)

Agreed, a full scoop is too much. A 3/4 scoop will give me a kick up the arse for sure, however I'm still not convinced it has DMAA in. Is there any way to be sure, any companies that test preworkouts and publish results I'd be interested in that.


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

AestheticManlet said:


> Might be worth mentioning a level scoop of that pre is more than 5g it's more like 7-8 iirc. I use mg scales to dose so if you're just chucking a scoop you may be overdosing.


 ^^^ That's actually good advice for all supplements. Unless you really don't care or it's something where you really have no need to be precise, forget about the measuring scoops and weigh it on digi scales instead. Scoops are often way off.


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## Jordan08 (Feb 17, 2014)

dtlv said:


> Best preworkout - it depends what you specifically want from your preworkout.
> 
> Most of the things discussed are fine with good evidence behind them as individual ingredients -
> 
> ...


 What are your views on taking Ashwagandha before workout?.


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## darren.1987 (Jan 2, 2013)

Sasnak said:


> I'm gonna wack an order in for this I think. If it's as bad as tm "jack3d" I'm going back to speed.


 bad in what way? I got some but didn't think much of it tbh


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## Sasnak (Oct 11, 2016)

darren.1987 said:


> bad in what way? I got some but didn't think much of it tbh


 Mine was completely bunk. I took 5 all in one go as a last attempt with it, felt nothing. It might still be in my stash so I can post a pic of it if anyone doesn't believe me. I don't suppose it matters now as tm are gone. I don't think everyone's was bunk though. nWo said his was potent.


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

Jordan08 said:


> What are your views on taking Ashwagandha before workout?.


 Never thought about it tbh! You mean to use it to lower the cortisol response?

Rhodila has research investigating it's effect as a preworkout supp and that makes sense as rhodila is a stimulating adaptogen. As you know though, ashwag, is the opposite of a stimulant, even though it shares a lot of the same other effects. It's not a typical pre- type supplement.


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## darren.1987 (Jan 2, 2013)

Sasnak said:


> Mine was completely bunk. I took 5 all in one go as a last attempt with it, felt nothing. It might still be in my stash so I can post a pic of it if anyone doesn't believe me. I don't suppose it matters now as tm are gone. I don't think everyone's was bunk though. nWo said his was potent.


 well I took one and didn't feel anything. maybe I tried a couple more times on empty stomach but still nothing so just used pre workout instead.

so I don't disbelieve you, most other stuff was ok however the tm made tabs eg sibutramine was also suspect


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## Sasnak (Oct 11, 2016)

darren.1987 said:


> so I don't disbelieve you


 Not you lol. At the time I got called out tho


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## AestheticManlet (Jun 12, 2012)

Ive tried many supplements that claim preworkout benefits, stacking a lot of them too at many different doses from low to way more than recommended.

Caffeine, nitrates, citrulline, citrulline malate, tyrosine, glycerol monostearate, taurine, norvaline, agmatine sulphate, beta alanine, dmaa,

My thoughts:

Nitrates (creatine, potassium or arginine nitrate) or citrilline malate is the best supplement to use for performance benefits, along with fullness and pumps.

Citrulline malate (2:1) - 8g

Or

Nitrates at 3-5g depending on tolerance. Arginine nitrate preferred choice as can lower nitrate tolerance too.

Choose one or other as stacking both at recommend doses will cause a big drop in bp and make your workout rather s**t.

Stacked with:

Caffeine 200-500mg depending on tolerance

Or

A cheap preworkout containing caffeine and flavouring.

What I deem not worth using in my opinion:

L citrulline - dosed as much as 8g. Much more benefit from citrulline malate and easier to purchase in bulk. Malate acid itself also has performance benefits.

Agmatine sulfate - dosed as much as 3g. I don't get any benefit from this supplement myself. Some people claim skin splitting pumps but I haven't experienced anything of the sort myself. It apparently has nutrition partitioning benefits and can be used to treat some chronic pain issues.

Tyrosine - dosed as much as 10g. Never seen any benefit from this myself. Some claim focus, energy and cns benefits can't say I noticed anything myself.

Glycerol monostearate - dosed as much as 10g. Also used the hydromax version which is around 7x or so more potent. It does work for giving you a pump during workout however need to consume a lot of water during as can cause dehydration. No performance benefits that I know of, purely cell volumising.

Taurine - dosed as much as 10g. I do rate it as a supplement but not for preworkout. I'd rather take it with my creatine. Can definitely help with muscle cramps and aids hydration. People claim also has some anti oxidant effects.

L norvaline - dosed as much as 500mg. On paper it seems like one of the best supplements to use preworkout as when your body produces too much nitric oxide the arginase enzyme gets rid. However norvaline is supposed to inhibit the enzyme resulting in an "endless loop of NO". However seems it doesn't do this at least not in healthy individuals. People claim it does work if people have certain conditions regarding NO production.

Beta alanine - dosed as much as 5g. Beta alanine does work however it needs to be taken everyday to saturate, similar to creatine. It increases muscle carnosine levels and acts as a lactic acid buffer, which can result in more reps depending on the type of training you do. Typically high volume going to failure.

Dmaa - dosed as much as 100g. Strong stim and I do rate it. However it's not something I'd want to use every workout, rather use caffeine myself.


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## SuperRips (Sep 14, 2015)

AestheticManlet said:


> Ive tried many supplements that claim preworkout benefits, stacking a lot of them too at many different doses from low to way more than recommended.
> 
> Caffeine, nitrates, citrulline, citrulline malate, tyrosine, glycerol monostearate, taurine, norvaline, agmatine sulphate, beta alanine, dmaa,
> 
> ...


 ddyaammmm vixxer nice one, copied n pasted that s**t for future reference....stim whore :thumbup1:


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## Jordan08 (Feb 17, 2014)

dtlv said:


> It certainly does deliver faster absorption, and thus will replenish glycogen even more quickly than malto or dex, but whether that really has any meaningful real world benefit is another question.
> 
> Is possible though that it might ease the stomach issues. Malto has a higher osmolality, meaning that, if there isn't enough water consumed with it, it draws more water into the gut to create a balance of osomotic pressures before it can then be absorbed - branched dextrin has a lower osmolality meaning it draws in or needs less water before it can be absorbed.
> 
> It's this drawing in of fluids to the intestine that can cause unpleasant sensations in the gut with highly osmolal things like malto.


 I currently use Dextrose as my intra carb drink. I train first thing in the morning and is always tight on schedule so doesn't have much time to grab a meal.

I am currently doing this

Caffeine 400 mg with 20 gms EAA's half n hr before workout

During the workout, i consume around 40gms dextrose.

Workouts are going fine but i have noticed that my appetite has taken a toll from the time i have introduced dextrose. Bloating is an another issue during the workout but not that bothered.

Do you think dextrose can kill appetite for the whole day?.

If yes, what would you do in my scenario ?. Any other carb source to try such as malo or vitagro? or do you recommend something else?.


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## Stinking Dylan (Dec 12, 2018)

How long are you training for and to what intensity? You shouldn't need any intra carb source unless you're performing endurance work.

If you feel you need a fuel source AM, have you tried fat (MCT, some raw coconut oil or 'bullet proof' coffee?), maybe this will make you less bloated.


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## AestheticManlet (Jun 12, 2012)

Stinking Dylan said:


> How long are you training for and to what intensity? You shouldn't need any intra carb source unless you're performing endurance work.
> 
> If you feel you need a fuel source AM, have you tried fat (MCT, some raw coconut oil or 'bullet proof' coffee?), maybe this will make you less bloated.


 It was more when I dabbled with slin where I was looking at carbs around workout.


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

Jordan08 said:


> I currently use Dextrose as my intra carb drink. I train first thing in the morning and is always tight on schedule so doesn't have much time to grab a meal.
> 
> I am currently doing this
> 
> ...


 It's possible the dextrose might be responsible. This is not a research based answer but an anecdote based one but I notice something very similar when I drink a bunch of fast carbs quickly, especially during exercise - there's always (for me) significant appetite blunting afterwards. It could be the appetite suppressive effect of the insulin spike, which some people are more responsive to than others, but not sure.

For alternatives I use isomaltulose, which is usually branded and sold as Palatinose. It's 50/50 fructose/glucose but slower and steadier in it's release. It can have a subtle appetite suppressing effect too if you take a lot of it, but I like it because there are no spikes or crashes in blood sugar and I feel like it's the best carb supplement for fuelling a long session when low on glycogen. If already stoked up on carbs, or just having a short easy session, I don't think intra or pre carbs are necessary.


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## AestheticManlet (Jun 12, 2012)

I can't say pre/intra carbs help my workout in the slightest, at least not maltodextrin anyway.

I feel more bloated and performance/pumps etc are no different.

I do consume eaas or bcaas though with training first thing.


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## bigmass (Oct 18, 2018)

orangeandpears said:


> dimensions t5
> 
> 200 caf, 30eph 30dmaa


 absolute garbage . the tablet weighs less than whats statd !!! no one can get eph no more . me id go straight to dmaa - sayswhat it is on the tin .


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## Andyp75 (Oct 17, 2017)

I think someone has mentioned it here already but Bucked Up do a pre called Woke AF. It has two stims which mimic the effects of dmaa (without actually being dmaa).

They now have a UK presence and a Facebook page / community that you can join.


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## nbfootball65 (Nov 18, 2014)

I have tried Woke AF. I thought it was pretty good.


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