# Low reps & High sets vs High reps & low sets



## ambs_carr (May 25, 2015)

Hey guys,

So I'm currently trying to add as much muscle as possible at the moment until my cut at the very end of December.

One of the PT's at the gym has structured my existing plan a little by changing my sets and reps.

He has asked me to lift as heavy as possible and as I'm doing low reps the weight is manageable for those few.

For example :

DB Chest Press - 4 reps x 10 sets.

Deadlifts - 4 reps x 15 sets

I do have a few exercises with higher reps. For example:

Mid Flyes to Low Flyes (Superset)

10 Reps x 3 sets

I just want to get your opinions. My other half does not agree with this way of training, but I don't know what to think?

Thanks


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## Big ape (May 5, 2011)

If someone said to me you have to start your journey again, i want you to put on as much muscle as you possibly can in 2 months... i would

1) eat in a calorie surplus

2) use a strength program (5x5)

3) make sure i track and progress with weights


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Generally I think a mix of both is best. I wouldn't be trying to do 15 sets of 4 rep deadlifts though, that's mad! I usually vary things over a range from 6x4 (sets x reps) to 4x15. 7x3 is another sensible scheme. 15x4 is not IMHO - in that there is no way you could do that at close to your 4 rep max weight, and it will also take ages.


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## ambs_carr (May 25, 2015)

Ultrasonic said:


> Generally I think a mix of both is best. I wouldn't be trying to do 15 sets of 4 rep deadlifts though, that's mad! I usually vary things over a range from 6x4 (sets x reps) to 4x15. 7x3 is another sensible scheme. 15x4 is not - in that there is no way you could do that at close to your 4 rep max weight, and it will also take ages.


Umm maybe its only 10 sets, but either way I'm day 2 after doing back and my back is still hurting from doing my deadlifts (In a good way) and I generally don't get any good doms from deadlifts.

My PB is 70kg at the moment, but I can only do 1 set (of 4) at the moment, and then I have to reduce it down to around 60kg.


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## ambs_carr (May 25, 2015)

Big ape said:


> If someone said to me you have to start your journey again, i want you to put on as much muscle as you possibly can in 2 months... i would
> 
> 1) eat in a calorie surplus
> 
> ...


Yup I'm in a calorie surplus at the moment 

I track my weights every workout I do to track my progress.

I am doing this for the next 3 weeks, and then re looking at it.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

> Umm maybe its only 10 sets, but either way I'm day 2 after doing back and my back is still hurting from doing my deadlifts (In a good way) and I generally don't get any good doms from deadlifts.
> 
> My PB is 70kg at the moment, but I can only do 1 set (of 4) at the moment, and then I have to reduce it down to around 60kg.


DOMS don't mean growth FWIW. Ultimately this comes down to how much you trust your coach. If you do, give what they say a go for a while and see how you get on. If you don't, stop paying them. A good coach should be open to discussing why they are recommending a particular approach though.


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## Breda (May 2, 2011)

If you're working anywhere near your 4/5 rep max you won't want or be able to do 10 or 15 sets and if you've paid money for that programme you want you're money back.


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## ambs_carr (May 25, 2015)

Ultrasonic said:


> DOMS don't mean growth FWIW. Ultimately this comes down to how much you trust your coach. If you do, give what they say a go for a while and see how you get on. If you don't, stop paying them. A good coach should be open to discussing why they are recommending a particular approach though.


Yea I think I'll give it a go for the 3 more weeks and see what changes. I haven't paid for this, its complimentary to the gym I go to.


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## Dark sim (May 18, 2013)

ambs_carr said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> So I'm currently trying to add as much muscle as possible at the moment until my cut at the very end of December.
> 
> ...


Jesus that is awful advice. 15 sets of deadlift??

If you believe this is the way forward you are completely lost. Your bf is right to question this.

To add muscle you need to train like a bodybuilder, the same as a male bodybuilder. I dont care about anyone advising to do a 5x5 program, that is not bodybuilding.


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## Vincey (Jun 12, 2015)

Dark sim said:


> Jesus that is awful advice. 15 sets of deadlift??
> 
> If you believe this is the way forward you are completely lost. Your bf is right to question this.
> 
> To add muscle you need to train like a bodybuilder, the same as a male bodybuilder. I dont care about anyone advising to do a 5x5 program, that is not bodybuilding.


15 sets of deadlifting sounds like 15 sets of death IMO. Just asking for your lower back to give out at some point doing that kind of work.


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## Dark sim (May 18, 2013)

Vincey said:


> 15 sets of deadlifting sounds like 15 sets of death IMO. Just asking for your lower back to give out at some point doing that kind of work.


It is dumb on a whole new level. No wonder "PT's" have a bad rep dishing out shit advice like that.


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## Vincey (Jun 12, 2015)

Dark sim said:


> It is dumb on a whole new level. No wonder "PT's" have a bad rep dishing out shit advice like that.


If a PT ever asked me to do that even being a newbie as I am, I'd have to laugh and ask for my cash back.


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## TommyBananas (Nov 23, 2014)

I'd do what big ape said.


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## ambs_carr (May 25, 2015)

Breda said:


> If you're working anywhere near your 4/5 rep max you won't want or be able to do 10 or 15 sets and if you've paid money for that programme you want you're money back.


Sorry I didn't understand what you said. And don't worry this came complimentary with my gym membership


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## ambs_carr (May 25, 2015)

Dark sim said:


> Jesus that is awful advice. 15 sets of deadlift??
> 
> If you believe this is the way forward you are completely lost. Your bf is right to question this.
> 
> To add muscle you need to train like a bodybuilder, the same as a male bodybuilder. I dont care about anyone advising to do a 5x5 program, that is not bodybuilding.


Ok so to train like a body builder how many sets / reps should I be doing?


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## Omen669 (Jun 11, 2015)

If you he's advising to lift as heavy as possible to build the most amount of muscle mass, then I don't think his advice is that great. Especially with his set ranges he's setting you.

Compounds build's the most strength and muscle mass, so work around them.

Eat big to get big.


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## TommyBananas (Nov 23, 2014)

ambs_carr said:


> Ok so to train like a body builder how many sets / reps should I be doing?


It isn't such a big deal to worry about sets/reps. It's total volume that will count, and frequency.

StrongLifts 5x5 for example will be hitting bodyparts frequently and with lots of volume (5x5 is obviously volume work)

if you wanted, you could add extra assistance work after (i wouldn't, but you can if you really want).


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## Big ape (May 5, 2011)

> Jesus that is awful advice. 15 sets of deadlift??
> 
> If you believe this is the way forward you are completely lost. Your bf is right to question this.
> 
> To add muscle you need to train like a bodybuilder, the same as a male bodybuilder. I dont care about anyone advising to do a 5x5 program, that is not bodybuilding.


LOL


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## E46GTR (Apr 28, 2015)

End of the day it all works, try a few months of one and a few months of the other. "PT'" try to over complicate things because they're idiots.


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## Jalex (Nov 16, 2014)

Big ape said:


> If someone said to me you have to start your journey again, i want you to put on as much muscle as you possibly can in 2 months... i would
> 
> 1) eat in a calorie surplus
> 
> ...


Damn these 10 likes...couldn't give you the one you deserve.

Oh and herro :thumb:


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## Big ape (May 5, 2011)

> Damn these 10 likes...couldn't give you the one you deserve.
> 
> Oh and herro :thumb:


was u banned? lol


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## Jalex (Nov 16, 2014)

Big ape said:


> was u banned? lol


Yar.. probably not best for me to keep talking about it will pm :lol:


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## Dark sim (May 18, 2013)

Big ape said:


> LOL


What's funny?


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## Dark sim (May 18, 2013)

TommyBananas said:


> It isn't such a big deal to worry about sets/reps. It's total volume that will count, and frequency.
> 
> StrongLifts 5x5 for example will be hitting bodyparts frequently and with lots of volume (5x5 is obviously volume work)
> 
> if you wanted, you could add extra assistance work after (i wouldn't, but you can if you really want).


Why do you lot insist on 5x5? I've not come across one bodybuilder who trains like this, EVER!! Not on this forum, not in real life, not any pro's...


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## TommyBananas (Nov 23, 2014)

Dark sim said:


> Why do you lot insist on 5x5? I've not come across one bodybuilder who trains like this, EVER!! Not on this forum, not in real life, not any pro's...


Because its a good way to get a decent amount of volume with high frequency. She is not a top level bodybuilder, or even an intermediate. This iis why it suits people.

Also, Arnold, Reg Park, loads of old school bb'ers started that way. Fullbody workouts were actually the in thing, theen thesee brosplits came about and Leroy Colbert did a video on them saying how stupid it is too.


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## Dark sim (May 18, 2013)

ambs_carr said:


> Ok so to train like a body builder how many sets / reps should I be doing?


A sample workout I have one bikini girl on during off season -

CHEST/SHOULDERS/BICEPS
Incline Dumbbell Press 12,12,8,8
Standing Shoulder Press 20,15,12,8,8
Alternate Cable Flyes Low Pulley 3×15
Seated Incline Dumbbell Lateral Raise 3×15
Seated Dumbbell Lateral Raise 3×15
Cable Bent Over Lateral Raise 3×15
Face Pulls 3×15
Gironda Dumbbell Side Swing 2×10
Cable curl 100 reps in as few sets as possible, if you stop no more than 20 seconds rest

QUADS/ABS
Leg Extensions 20,14,7,7
Seated Hamstring Curl 20,14,7,7
Front Squats 3x12
Back Squats 3x8
Leg Press Wide Stance 3x20
Dumbbell Walking Lunges 3×15
Seated Calf Raises 3×25 1 min rest
Seated Calf Raises 3x12 10 sec rest
Good Mornings 3×10
Window Wipers 3x20
Overhead Rope Crunch 3×20

BACK/ARMS
Close Grip Chin-ups 30 reps in as few sets as possible
Stretchers 3x20
Incline Bench Dumbbell Row 3×12
45 Degree Incline Bench Biceps Curls 3×12
EZ Bar Close Grip Bench Press 3×12
Single Arm Cable Curls 3×15
Rope Tricep Pressdowns 3x20 3x10 30 seconds rest
Rope Overhead Triceps Extension 3×15

GLUTES/ABS
Seated Hamstring Curls 4x12
Romanian Deadlift 4×10
Bench Step Up 4x10
Reverse Rope straight Leg Deadlift 3×15
Glute Hamstring Raise 4×12
Reverse Hyper Extension 3×15
Cable Kickback 3×15
V sit up 3×15-20
Hanging Leg Raise 3×15-20
Kettlebells Swings 3×15


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## ambs_carr (May 25, 2015)

Ok my mistake I completely made the number of 10 / 15 up, I don't know where it came from .. Deadlifts are 4 x 6 sets.

Sorry ! I will be uploading a pic on a new thread though, as I'm getting myself complicated.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

> Ok my mistake I completely made the number of 10 / 15 up, I don't know where it came from .. Deadlifts are 4 x 6 sets.
> 
> Sorry ! I will be uploading a pic on a new thread though, as I'm getting myself complicated.


Ah, 4x6 is much more sensible!


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## The-Real-Deal (Dec 5, 2014)

3 sets of 8 - 10 hits the muscle harder with less rest between sets, 3 periods of rest opposed to 5 with the same or slightly higher volume within the 3 sets. I would recommend this range to build muscle mass. A sufficient weight must be used to maximize stress to the muscle while keeping good form within that rep range.


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## Big ape (May 5, 2011)

> A sample workout I have one bikini girl on during off season -
> 
> CHEST/SHOULDERS/BICEPS
> Incline Dumbbell Press 12,12,8,8
> ...


I hope she ain't natty on that split


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## Dark sim (May 18, 2013)

Big ape said:


> I hope she ain't natty on that split


Haha this is a standard workload for competing females, don't pretend you know the slightest thing about training them. My workload doesn't increase because I'm on gear, makes no odds.

I've prepped a few girls for bikini and fitness.


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## Big ape (May 5, 2011)

> Haha this is a standard workload for competing females, don't pretend you know the slightest thing about training them. My workload doesn't increase because I'm on gear, makes no odds.
> 
> I've prepped a few girls for bikini and fitness.


9 exercies on legs in 1 session LOL ... don't think jay cutler does that much


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## Dark sim (May 18, 2013)

Big ape said:


> 9 exercies on legs in 1 session LOL ... don't think jay cutler does that much


Jay is not a bikini girl, what a stupid comparison lol. And what does that have to do with anything?

Go see how bikini/fitness girls train, generally much harder than men.


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## Big ape (May 5, 2011)

> Jay is not a bikini girl, what a stupid comparison lol. And what does that have to do with anything?
> 
> Go see how bikini/fitness girls train, generally much harder than men.


it means an enhanced male professional bodybuilder 4x mr O does not do that much for hes legs, what makes u think thats gonna benefit a natural biking girl?


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## Dark sim (May 18, 2013)

Big ape said:


> it means an enhanced male professional bodybuilder 4x mr O does not do that much for hes legs, what makes u think thats gonna benefit a natural biking girl?


I don't do that workload either, so what lol. Why are you comparing a male BB to a female bikini/fitness girl? You need to accept this is a standard workload for girls. I've prepped girls for stage, stop being a tool.


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## Big ape (May 5, 2011)

> I don't do that workload either, so what lol. Why are you comparing a male BB to a female bikini/fitness girl? You need to accept this is a standard workload for girls. I've prepped girls for stage, stop being a tool.


Im not being a tool im just confused and wanted to no the reason behind it lol


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## A1243R (Nov 2, 2014)

Big ape said:


> it means an enhanced male professional bodybuilder 4x mr O does not do that much for hes legs, what makes u think thats gonna benefit a natural biking girl?


another one of the IIFYM brigade who probs looks like shite thinking he knows everything... you are literally ruining this forum... look at @Dark sim FFS he knows what he is doing why even argue?


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## Jalex (Nov 16, 2014)

Dark sim said:


> A sample workout I have one bikini girl on during off season -
> 
> CHEST/SHOULDERS/BICEPS
> Incline Dumbbell Press 12,12,8,8
> ...


I have never ever seen that much volume advocated for anyone (especially not natural).

Now, I'm not slating as you say it works for who you prep and that's all that matters but you say to @Big ape that it is different and he does not understand...could you explain how, so I can attempt to understand the reasoning...?


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## Big ape (May 5, 2011)

> another one of the IIFYM brigade who probs looks like shite thinking he knows everything... you are literally ruining this forum... look at @Dark sim FFS he knows what he is doing why even argue?


iifym brigade? lol ... if u live anywhere near london/essex i will be more then happy to have a training session with u. il also take off my top as a bonus


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## Big ape (May 5, 2011)

> another one of the IIFYM brigade who probs looks like shite thinking he knows everything... you are literally ruining this forum... look at @Dark sim FFS he knows what he is doing why even argue?


U seen Phil heath? current Mr O? ... believed tilapia thins your skin. just because you look great don't mean u know everything



> www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbrlPG6EuhY


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## Dark sim (May 18, 2013)

Jalex said:


> I have never ever seen that much volume advocated for anyone (especially not natural).
> 
> Now, I'm not slating as you say it works for who you prep and that's all that matters but you say to @Big ape that it is different and he does not understand...could you explain how, so I can attempt to understand the reasoning...?





Big ape said:


> iifym brigade? lol ... if u live anywhere near london/essex i will be more then happy to have a training session with u. il also take off my top as a bonus


Yes the iifym mentality, know it all attitude, even to those who know better, you lot never accept anything outside your narrow minds.

And you aint all that taking your top off, jeez I'm leaner than you off season.


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## A1243R (Nov 2, 2014)

Big ape said:


> iifym brigade? lol ... if u live anywhere near london/essex i will be more then happy to have a training session with u. il also take off my top as a bonus


Nah im from the north thank feck :thumb: you are tempting me after you offered to take your top off though... I'm down on business for a few days next month... ill shout you if i have time


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## Big ape (May 5, 2011)

> Yes the iifym mentality, know it all attitude, even to those who know better, you lot never accept anything outside your narrow minds.
> 
> And you aint all that taking your top off, jeez I'm leaner than you off season.


i was interested in a debate, your throwing insults like "im better then you in off season" have a day off mate lol


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## A1243R (Nov 2, 2014)

Big ape said:


> U seen Phil heath? current Mr O? ... believed tilapia thins your skin. just because you look great don't mean u know everything
> 
> 
> 
> > www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbrlPG6EuhY


The majority of the top level BB'ers f**k themselves up due to the amount of hormones and stress they put there body through


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## Dark sim (May 18, 2013)

Jalex said:


> I have never ever seen that much volume advocated for anyone (especially not natural).
> 
> Now, I'm not slating as you say it works for who you prep and that's all that matters but you say to @Big ape that it is different and he does not understand...could you explain how, so I can attempt to understand the reasoning...?


What does natural have to do with it? My training doesn't change, on or off cycle, and so it shouldn't.

You know nothing about prepping females, training females, yet still you and he both question me. Again, women can handle more workload. Go do some research.


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## Big ape (May 5, 2011)

> Nah im from the north thank feck :thumb: you are tempting me after you offered to take your top off though... I'm down on business for a few days next month... ill shout you if i have time


Yeah give me a PM if your down we will hit a session, i been on this forum for years also been training for years i ain't just jumping on some bad wagon and copying advise. just share whats worked for me and others


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## Dark sim (May 18, 2013)

Big ape said:


> i was interested in a debate, your throwing insults like "im better then you in off season" have a day off mate lol


You wasn't interested in a debate, you were trying to patronise me, same as always.

My day off is tomorrow and sunday, but thanks for your concern x


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## Jalex (Nov 16, 2014)

Dark sim said:


> Yes the iifym mentality, know it all attitude, even to those who know better, *you lot never accept anything outside your narrow minds.*
> 
> And you aint all that taking your top off, jeez I'm leaner than you off season.


DO YOU READ

I asked you for your reasoning and noted/accepted it works for you clients? Yet you just insult me and refuse to explain in your above quote.

Did I say I know anything about prepping females? Which is exactly why I asked for your thoughts/reasoning/logic.

Man seriously lower the amount of androgens you're shooting up.


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## Big ape (May 5, 2011)

> You wasn't interested in a debate, you were trying to patronise me, same as always.
> 
> My day off is tomorrow and sunday, but thanks for your concern x


i was questioning why a natural female would need that much work load?

unless her goal is to fry her CNS


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## FuqOutDaWhey (Apr 29, 2015)

> What does natural have to do with it? My training doesn't change, on or off cycle, and so it shouldn't.
> 
> You know nothing about prepping females, training females, yet still you and he both question me. Again, women can handle more workload. Go do some research.


What credentials do you have for prepping females btw?


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## Dark sim (May 18, 2013)

Jalex said:


> DO YOU READ
> 
> I asked you for your reasoning and noted/accepted it works for you clients? Yet you just insult me and refuse to explain in your above quote.
> 
> ...





Big ape said:


> i was questioning why a natural female would need that much work load?
> 
> unless her goal is to fry her CNS


I've answered this?? And I'm relaxed, thanks. They handle more workload, never known a female to not handle this sort of volume.

And again with the patronising lol. No CNS were fried during my workouts.


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## Dark sim (May 18, 2013)

DatGuy said:


> Did you get permission before you buried your head up dark sims batty hole


So because he agrees with me, he has his head up my arse?


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## FuqOutDaWhey (Apr 29, 2015)

> I've answered this?? And I'm relaxed, thanks. They handle more workload, never known a female to not handle this sort of volume.
> 
> And again with the patronising lol. No CNS were fried during my workouts.


You do come across aggressive / defensive if anyone questions you


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## Dark sim (May 18, 2013)

BrahmaBull said:


> What credentials do you have for prepping females btw?


I have no PT qualifications, just experience. My first coach was a female ex IFBB pro, with level 4. She taught me plenty, just evolved from there.

One girl took 2nd in bikini and fitness this year, so I know enough.


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## A1243R (Nov 2, 2014)

DatGuy said:


> No because he criticises someone for questioning you he has his head stuck up your ass


DATGUY this forum is being ruined the way people start attacking people because the say something and its pissing me off, youve been on here for how long mate? Its probably always been full of knobs since you joined... It started mainly around crimbo time for me, people calling people out who obviously know and look 100x better then them.


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## Dark sim (May 18, 2013)

BrahmaBull said:


> You do come across aggressive / defensive if anyone questions you


Only these two clowns, they talk down to people all the time. And not aggressive, I'm to the point. It is hard to tell emotions from words on a screen.


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## Dark sim (May 18, 2013)

DatGuy said:


> No because he criticises someone for questioning you he has his head stuck up your ass


He is also allowed to do that, I've done it, if I agree with someone else. Do you have an opinion on the thread topic?


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

FWIW I think it is high volumes of low rep strength work that can become very tiring from a CNS point of view, rather than high volumes of higher rep work.


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## Jalex (Nov 16, 2014)

Dark sim said:


> Only these two clowns, they talk down to people all the time. And not aggressive, I'm to the point. It is hard to tell emotions from words on a screen.


So I'm clown because I asked for your reasoning for doing something I have never come across (and something which we now see you have actually no credentials, no recognised qualifications and nothing actually worth a dime except your own anecdotal experience)

Talk down to people? The only reason I am here is to help people where I can. Like you say, "it's hard to tell emotions from words on a screen" yet you claim I (we) are patronising etc,

I bet in reality you're actually a huge pr1ck.


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## FuqOutDaWhey (Apr 29, 2015)

> So I'm clown because I asked for your reasoning for doing something I have never come across (and something which we now see you have actually no credentials, no recognised qualifications and nothing actually worth a dime except your own anecdotal experience)
> 
> Talk down to people? The only reason I am here is to help people where I can. Like you say, "it's hard to tell emotions from words on a screen" yet you claim I (we) are patronising etc,
> 
> I bet in reality you're actually a huge pr1ck.


Humility is a lost trait these days


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## Omen669 (Jun 11, 2015)

From what i've seen Bikini/fitness girls do do, a lot of leg and glute work. It's their bread and butter.


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## Vincey (Jun 12, 2015)

Omen669 said:


> From what i've seen Bikini/fitness girls do do, a lot of leg and glute work. It's their bread and butter.


And many thanks to the butt models that also do lots and lots and lots glute work :001_tt2:


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## A1243R (Nov 2, 2014)

What people dont realise is Qualifications mean feck all in life... Hard word, Dedication, luck and passion get you place not what fu**ing qualifications you have


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## Dark sim (May 18, 2013)

Jalex said:


> So I'm clown because I asked for your reasoning for doing something I have never come across (and something which we now see you have actually no credentials, no recognised qualifications and nothing actually worth a dime except your own anecdotal experience)
> 
> Talk down to people? The only reason I am here is to help people where I can. Like you say, "it's hard to tell emotions from words on a screen" yet you claim I (we) are patronising etc,
> 
> I bet in reality you're actually a huge pr1ck.


Neither of you have any clue about training females, you've read something somewhere, sometime, maybe, that is it. I've actually got myself on stage, and then used that knowledge and applied it to females. You do not need a qualification to know, and tbf the so called PT qualification is a joke, and you know it. There isn't a prep qualification btw. It is more than my experience coaching, it is others around me too, with the same methodology, and I have asked their advice if I was ever in doubt.

I know how you operate, both of you, I've seen it enough on this forum. You even had the nerve to question pscarb. I'm not saying he is beyond reproach but fk me know when to stand down lol.

Let me add, yes when it comes to you two clowns I am a huge pr**k.


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## FuqOutDaWhey (Apr 29, 2015)

Don't get why anyone would be beyond reproach. How big a name is BPak? Yet this morning Alan Aragon was calling him out on a comment about avoiding carbs at breakfast on FB.

Should he be beyond reproach?


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## Jalex (Nov 16, 2014)

Dark sim said:


> Neither of you have any clue about training females, you've read something somewhere, sometime, maybe, that is it. I've actually got myself on stage, and then used that knowledge and applied it to females. You do not need a qualification to know, and tbf the so called PT qualification is a joke, and you know it. There isn't a prep qualification btw. It is more than my experience coaching, it is others around me too, with the same methodology, and I have asked their advice if I was ever in doubt.
> 
> I know how you operate, both of you, I've seen it enough on this forum. You even had the nerve to question pscarb. I'm not saying he is beyond reproach but fk me know when to stand down lol.


God what are people? gods? ANYONE should be able to be questioned...even more so those that are successful because it's their responses that people can LEARN from (if it is worth learning, that is).

Stop trying to make it personal and, in particular, make me look like the bad guy. I know how you operate and you word things cleverly to deceive those with little perception or understanding but get hot under the collar when pressured from people that actually call you out.

In summary, you do not have any concrete reasoning why you train them with such ludicrous volume just that it has worked from your experience and is working now. That's fine, just say that. I cannot say you are wrong if it is working for you but stop trying to fight about everything.


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## Dark sim (May 18, 2013)

Jalex said:


> God what are people? gods? ANYONE should be able to be questioned...even more so those that are successful because it's their responses that people can LEARN from (if it is worth learning, that is).
> 
> Stop trying to make it personal and, in particular, make me look like the bad guy. I know how you operate and you word things cleverly to deceive those with little perception or understanding but get hot under the collar when pressured from people that actually call you out.
> 
> In summary, you do not have any concrete reasoning why you train them with such ludicrous volume just that it has worked from your experience and is working now. That's fine, just say that. I cannot say you are wrong if it is working for you but stop trying to fight about everything.


i don't mind helping, or answering any question, but it is YOUR way of doing so. I do not by any means know it all, still plenty to learn.

Your summary is incorrect, again you know nothing about training females so are unfamiliar with their workload capability. If you knew about this, then you would accept it is not just my way of training, I assure you of that.


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## Grace45 (Jun 12, 2015)

Eat in a surplus which your already doing which is a good start. I never went along with the typical female guidelines. I jumped straight in with my fella and trained alongside him, best thing I could have done. Now I train a 5 day split, Arms, shoulders, Quads & glutes, Back & hams, Chest. Will throw abs in there 3x a week too. Works well for me. My rep ranges are always between 8-12 and sets between 3-4. I set a rule of never going lower then 6 reps and once I get to 12 with ease I increase my weight.

I keep my rest periods short and I hit at least 6 exercises per session. On quads and glutes days I generally pack ALOT more in but that's my focus area. Coming into my next bulk my focus will go into my back more as its lagging so progressive overload on that will be a focus.

My main point is don't be afraid to train like a man, Just eat big and train as hard as you can. And listen to your body, rest and sleep are just as important as training.


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## Jalex (Nov 16, 2014)

Dark sim said:


> i don't mind helping, or answering any question, but it is YOUR way of doing so. I do not by any means know it all, still plenty to learn.
> 
> Your summary is incorrect, again you know nothing about training females so are unfamiliar with their workload capability. If you knew about this, then you would accept it is not just my way of training, I assure you of that.


This is what I mean._..now your reply is not aggressive at all and backtracking to make you seem pleasant. Anyhow, whatever._

_So fine. What is the reason they have a higher workload capablity? There has to be a reason_



Grace45 said:


> Eat in a surplus which your already doing which is a good start. I never went along with the typical female guidelines. I jumped straight in with my fella and trained alongside him, best thing I could have done. Now I train a 5 day split, Arms, shoulders, Quads & glutes, Back & hams, Chest. Will throw abs in there 3x a week too. Works well for me. My rep ranges are always between 8-12 and sets between 3-4. I set a rule of never going lower then 6 reps and once I get to 12 with ease I increase my weight.
> 
> I keep my rest periods short and I hit at least 6 exercises per session. On quads and glutes days I generally pack ALOT more in but that's my focus area. Coming into my next bulk my focus will go into my back more as its lagging so progressive overload on that will be a focus.
> 
> My main point is don't be afraid to train like a man, Just eat big and train as hard as you can. And listen to your body, rest and sleep are just as important as training.


Agree Grace.

The point wasn't the volume is similar to a males. It was that it was *much more *volume than is normally advocated for ANY male including those on PEDS and one example was more than one of the best bodybuilders ever and 4x Mr Olympia (think it was @Big ape 's post).


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## Omen669 (Jun 11, 2015)

Vincey said:


> And many thanks to the butt models that also do lots and lots and lots glute work :001_tt2:


Most fitness girls are butt models. They make the world a much better place.


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## Grace45 (Jun 12, 2015)

Jalex said:


> This is what I mean._..now your reply is not aggressive at all and backtracking to make you seem pleasant. Anyhow, whatever._
> 
> _So fine. What is the reason they have a higher workload capablity?_
> 
> ...


I have to be honest and say leg days specifically I don't tire like my other half does. I can achieve a lot more volume then he can but I always put that down to the fact that I hit legs twice a week and he doesn't.


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## Jalex (Nov 16, 2014)

Grace45 said:


> I have to be honest and say leg days specifically I don't tire like my other half does. I can achieve a lot more volume then he can but I always put that down to the fact that I hit legs twice a week and he doesn't.


I will have to assess your glute gains soon.

Anyhow, off to play some volleyball now :thumb:


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## Big ape (May 5, 2011)

I just speak from experience, i have tried many routines, 5x5, GVT, 5/3/1, Y3T, Jay cutler workout, greg plitt workout, super sets, drop sets, negatives. many different splits the typical bro splits, PPL, 3 full body days, Upper/Lower etc

I now lift 3 days per week on non consecutive days Tuesday/Thursday/Saturday.

I have about 5 exercises per workout, I start with compounds which i track and monitor religiously and make sure i progress either with weight/reps i then move onto more accessory movements which i don't really track i just pick exercises i enjoy and have fun with it which helps me stick to it and be consistent.


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## Grace45 (Jun 12, 2015)

Jalex said:


> I will have to assess your glute gains soon.
> 
> Anyhow, off to play some volleyball now :thumb:


See my post in loosing weight section...Gains all there!


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## Dark sim (May 18, 2013)

Jalex said:


> This is what I mean._..now your reply is not aggressive at all and backtracking to make you seem pleasant. Anyhow, whatever._
> 
> _So fine. What is the reason they have a higher workload capablity? There has to be a reason_
> 
> ...


I don't need to come across pleasant, but I am always helping where I can on this forum.

Do you have any counter argument? Apart from a silly comparison to a male BB lol. Just for me to prove it. Girls have a higher workload capacity, why? Probably CNS related, who knows... I know from experience this is what they need.


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## The-Real-Deal (Dec 5, 2014)

WTF

Women do not need to train differently to men to build muscle. The OP wants to build muscle She asked about the rep ranges vs sets.


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## Grace45 (Jun 12, 2015)

Natty Steve'o said:


> WTF
> 
> Women do not need to train differently to men to build muscle. The OP wants to build muscle She asked about the rep ranges vs sets.


agreed 100%


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## Dark sim (May 18, 2013)

Natty Steve'o said:


> WTF
> 
> Women do not need to train differently to men to build muscle. The OP wants to build muscle She asked about the rep ranges vs sets.


They can train with more volume, especially legs.

I would not give any man the same volume of work as a I do the females I have coached.


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## FuqOutDaWhey (Apr 29, 2015)

> They can train with more volume, especially legs.
> 
> I would not give any man the same volume of work as a I do the females I have coached.


Right then the misses is getting it next gym session the lazy kent lol

Chris Jones volume incoming


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## The-Real-Deal (Dec 5, 2014)

> They can train with more volume, especially legs.
> 
> I would not give any man the same volume of work as a I do the females I have coached.


Why would you treat a woman different when it comes to legs?

or any exercise for that matter?


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## Big ape (May 5, 2011)

> Why would you treat a woman different when it comes to legs?
> 
> or any exercise for that matter?


exactly my argument, but no answer


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## Dark sim (May 18, 2013)

Natty Steve'o said:


> Why would you treat a woman different when it comes to legs?


Why, cos the main focus of bikini/fitness girls is their butt. Their butt wins shows. I couldnt do the volume of work I posted earlier, the girl I give this to, can do it no problem.

I barely give the any chest work either. Some girls don't even train chest.


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## The-Real-Deal (Dec 5, 2014)

> *They can train with more volume, especially legs*.
> 
> I would not give any man the same volume of work as a I do the females I have coached.


What a load of tosh......

Its all goal dependent.....


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## Dark sim (May 18, 2013)

Natty Steve'o said:


> What a load of tosh......
> 
> Its all goal dependent.....


Haha I'm training girls for stage so quite relevant for them


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## The-Real-Deal (Dec 5, 2014)

> Why, *cos the main focus of bikini/fitness girls* is their butt. Their butt wins shows. I couldnt do the volume of work I posted earlier, the girl I give this to, can do it no problem.
> 
> I barely give the any chest work either. Some girls don't even train chest.


Who's talking about this, Like I say its goal dependent. The op was talking about gaining muscle mass.


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## Dark sim (May 18, 2013)

Natty Steve'o said:


> Who's talking about this, Like I say its goal dependent. The op was talking about gaining muscle mass.


God, keep up lol. I posted an off season sample split for a client, this is relevant to her goal. No reason OP couldnt apply this.


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## The-Real-Deal (Dec 5, 2014)

> God, keep up lol. I posted an off season sample split for a client, this is relevant to her goal. No reason OP couldnt apply this.


So what your saying is this... the routine you posted is optimum for gaining muscle mass for a woman??


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## Dark sim (May 18, 2013)

Natty Steve'o said:


> So what your saying is this... the routine you posted is optimum for gaining muscle mass for a woman??


Optimum is a bold statement to make for anyone. For 8 weeks until I changed it would most certainly serve it's purpose.

Do you have any experience training women? Ever prepped someone for stage?


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## Grace45 (Jun 12, 2015)

During your debate OP simply asked how to gain mass...and from what I can gather she is pretty new...She hasnt asked about being stage ready. Had she then all of what is being said would be relevant. This is now likely to confuse her a little.

Women take more load for their legs because yes in bikini its all in the ass. Figure is a more rounded shape...so on and so forth.

The point of this is that OP shouldn't necessarily have to train any differently to a guy if she wants mass...

Just because we have v'jay jay's doesn't mean we have to train differently.


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## The-Real-Deal (Dec 5, 2014)

> *Optimum is a bold statement to make for anyone. For 8 weeks until I changed it would most certainly serve it's purpose*.
> 
> Do you have any experience training women? Ever prepped someone for stage?


So the real answer is NO as you would change it. I'm not knocking the routine as it serves its purpose which is for a different goal to the OP's

Yeah It runs in the family....


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## Dark sim (May 18, 2013)

Grace45 said:


> During your debate OP simply asked how to gain mass...and from what I can gather she is pretty new...She hasnt asked about being stage ready. Had she then all of what is being said would be relevant. This is now likely to confuse her a little.
> 
> Women take more load for their legs because yes in bikini its all in the ass. Figure is a more rounded shape...so on and so forth.
> 
> ...


The debate has moved on, guess you have not followed it all? My argument stemmed from a suggestion of 5x5 training.

I wouldn't give a female same volume on chest as a man, and like you've already said you can handle more volume on legs than your other half.

The sample workout I posted was just that a sample for one girl for a 6-8 week period.


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## Dark sim (May 18, 2013)

Natty Steve'o said:


> So the real answer is NO as you would change it. I'm not knocking the routine as it serves its purpose which is for a different goal to the OP's
> 
> Yeah It runs in the family....


No, wrong again, off season usually means a period to build muscle. So not a different goal at all.

There are many training styles which one can adopt,and I utilise many during certain times, this was just a sample lol.


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## Grace45 (Jun 12, 2015)

Dark sim said:


> The debate has moved on, guess you have not followed it all? My argument stemmed from a suggestion of 5x5 training.
> 
> I wouldn't give a female same volume on chest as a man, and like you've already said you can handle more volume on legs than your other half.
> 
> The sample workout I posted was just that a sample for one girl for a 6-8 week period.


No need to be blunt. I actually quite liked your sample...personally I do see the benefit and its similar to how I would train myself.

I have followed fully. I just feel that OP was asking for advice related to mass and now has to wade through posts to find that advice. Simple.

Never disagreed with your original statement so being short and stern towards me reaps no benefit.


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## The-Real-Deal (Dec 5, 2014)

> *No, wrong again, off season usually means a period to build muscle. So not a different goal at all.*
> 
> There are many training styles which one can adopt,and I utilise many during certain times, this was just a sample lol.


WTF.....First getting stage ready was mentioned, Now its off season....Make your mind up fella...


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## Dark sim (May 18, 2013)

Grace45 said:


> No need to be blunt. I actually quite liked your sample...personally I do see the benefit and its similar to how I would train myself.
> 
> I have followed fully. I just feel that OP was asking for advice related to mass and now has to wade through posts to find that advice. Simple.
> 
> Never disagreed with your original statement so being short and stern towards me reaps no benefit.


Maybe I need to address my writing style, I am blunt, nothing meant by it

I agree about having to wade through lots of crap before getting anything useful. I don't like when certain people comment with such rigidity when they have no place to..


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## 2004mark (Oct 26, 2013)

I'd imagine that a female powerlifter/cross fitter/bodybuilder/sprinter would train very similar to their male counterparts. Not really a male bikini class though (despite what people think about physique lol).

On volume, just a thought here... but maybe females don't really ego lift as much as men meaning they have extra capacity for volume.


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## garethd93 (Nov 28, 2014)

threads like this are probably the reason more knowledgeable people leave the forum and we're left with 'well I read this once so must be true' as oppose to years of knowledge and experience.


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## Grace45 (Jun 12, 2015)

garethd93 said:


> threads like this are probably the reason more knowledgeable people leave the forum and we're left with 'well I read this once so must be true' as oppose to years of experience.


If I had any likes left...


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## The-Real-Deal (Dec 5, 2014)

> Maybe I need to address my writing style, I am blunt, nothing meant by it
> 
> *I agree about having to wade through lots of crap before getting anything useful. I don't like when certain people comment with such rigidity when they have no place to..*


Wow, your really special aren't you. :lol:


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## Dark sim (May 18, 2013)

Natty Steve'o said:


> Wow, your really special aren't you. :lol:


Are you goading me? I'm embarrassed for this forum if you are an actual moderator.

When you have a clue about training feel free to contribute, instead of targetting my posts.



Natty Steve'o said:


> WTF.....First getting stage ready was mentioned, Now its off season....Make your mind up fella...


Get lost


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## The-Real-Deal (Dec 5, 2014)

> Are you goading me? I'm embarrassed for this forum if you are an actual moderator.
> 
> When you have a clue about training feel free to contribute, instead of targetting my posts.
> 
> Get lost


 :lol:


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## Dark sim (May 18, 2013)

Natty Steve'o said:


> :lol:


Thought so lol, you've got nothing to contribute you fat t**t


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## The-Real-Deal (Dec 5, 2014)

> Thought so lol, you've got nothing to contribute you fat t**t


No not goading you Just picking up on the flaws in you posts.

You've filled this thread full of [email protected] which is not relevant to the op's goals to try and come across as superior knowledgeable type. lol

I don't need to resort to name calling as I am right in what I am saying.


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## FuqOutDaWhey (Apr 29, 2015)

Well that escalated lol


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## Bataz (Jan 21, 2014)

Set a terrible example to a relatively new member, well played guys :-/


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## TommyBananas (Nov 23, 2014)

A1243R said:


> another one of the IIFYM brigade who probs looks like shite thinking he knows everything... you are literally ruining this forum... look at @Dark sim FFS he knows what he is doing why even argue?


Does Ben Pakulski know what hes doing? Lolgoodonem8 nice logic.


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## FuqOutDaWhey (Apr 29, 2015)

> Does Ben Pakulski know what hes doing? Lolgoodonem8 nice logic.


Aware on Lord Aragon's response lol


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## Dark sim (May 18, 2013)

Natty Steve'o said:


> No not goading you Just picking up on the flaws in you posts.
> 
> You've filled this thread full of [email protected] which is not relevant to the op's goals to try and come across as superior knowledgeable type. lol
> 
> I don't need to resort to name calling as I am right in what I am saying.


No you are goading as you never have anything useful to add. You are very bad example of a moderator, maybe they were after the "dad bod" look, since all the other mods are in shape.

There are no flaws wiith what I've written just you misinterpreting things as usual.

I am referring to off season training with my example I posted. I stand by that example.

I also asked you have prepped anyone? Since i do not think you have any experience training females. You can barely train yourself.


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## Dark sim (May 18, 2013)

Bataz said:


> Set a terrible example to a relatively new member, well played guys :-/


This is a forum, do you think everyone is going to get along like a happy family?


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## The-Real-Deal (Dec 5, 2014)

> No you are goading as you never have anything useful to add. *You are very bad example of a moderator*, maybe they were after the "dad bod" look, since all the other mods are in shape.
> 
> There are no flaws wiith what I've written just you misinterpreting things as usual.
> 
> ...


Priceless...... :lol:


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## Dark sim (May 18, 2013)

Natty Steve'o said:


> Priceless...... :lol:


Again, nothing to add lol. If you have nothing useful to say or add, do not say anything.


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## The-Real-Deal (Dec 5, 2014)

> Again, nothing to add lol. If you have nothing useful to say or add, do not say anything.


Ive said what I have had to say about the rep ranges vs sets etc aimed at the OP's goals (which was liked by the OP) It is sound advice for building lean mass. I don't think she is at the point in her training where she wants to prance around stage covered in Cuprinol  .

Forums are places where difference of opinion often show conflict in ideas. There is more than one way to skin a cat.


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## Dark sim (May 18, 2013)

Natty Steve'o said:


> Ive said what I have had to say about the rep ranges vs sets etc aimed at the OP's goals (which was liked by the OP) It is sound advice for building lean mass. I don't think she is at the point in her training where she wants to prance around stage covered in Cuprinol  .
> 
> Forums are places where difference of opinion often show conflict in ideas. There is more than one way to skin a cat.


Totally agree, but do not dismiss my example then just for the sake of it, as it has validity. I will also stand by the fact women can handle higher volume than men.

Think you'll also find, OP has mentioned about competing at some point.


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## Bataz (Jan 21, 2014)

Dark sim said:


> This is a forum, do you think everyone is going to get along like a happy family?


obviously not.


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## The-Real-Deal (Dec 5, 2014)

> Totally agree, but do not dismiss my example then just for the sake of it, as it has validity. I will also stand by the fact women can handle higher volume than men.
> 
> Think you'll also find, OP has mentioned about competing at some point.


Yeah @ some point.....! Like I said earlier on in the thread. I have never dismissed your routine as it has its place. Unfortunately we disagree that it is the best approach regarding the OP's goal to pack on good mass.

Higher volume = lighter weight.

I very much doubt that "most" women could achieve the same volume @ the weight I train @


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## Jalex (Nov 16, 2014)

You are just showing more and more you are insecure by "your writing style" and aggressive tone.

You talk as if you are god's gift. What have you achieved apart from train x amount of years, use x amount of years of PEDs with standard knowledge on nutrition and training. The problem is you're clever and I don't deny that but you think you're far far cleverer than you actually are. A common trait.

No doubt you know stuff and have experience. I've never said you don't have experience. The way you keep pointing it out in every post that you have trained X or you have done this etc or compared to X member you know best is just pathetic. Post some real evidence for your claims or just stop blowing your own trumpet mate. seriously, are you just part of this forum for an ego boost?

@dark sim


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## garethd93 (Nov 28, 2014)

> You are just showing more and more you are insecure by "your writing style" and aggressive tone.
> 
> You talk as if you are god's gift. What have you achieved apart from train x amount of years, use x amount of years of PEDs with standard knowledge on nutrition and training. The problem is you're clever and I don't deny that but you think you're far far cleverer than you actually are. A common trait.
> 
> ...


I don't want to get into it but what constitutes real evidence?


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## Jalex (Nov 16, 2014)

garethd93 said:


> I don't want to get into it but what constitutes real evidence?


Anything not anecdotal (i.e. someones own personal view/experience).

p.s. of course ancedotal has it's place and merit but not when you are making definitive statements and telling people they are wrong/do not know anything


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## Dark sim (May 18, 2013)

Jalex said:


> You are just showing more and more you are insecure by "your writing style" and aggressive tone.
> 
> You talk as if you are god's gift. What have you achieved apart from train x amount of years, use x amount of years of PEDs with standard knowledge on nutrition and training. The problem is you're clever and I don't deny that but you think you're far far cleverer than you actually are. A common trait.
> 
> ...


i will dismiss your silly comment about me being insecure. I may come across aggressive, but that will be mainly towards you and ape. Both of you are condescending towards me and many others, so in turn I talk differently to you two. Far from god's gift lol.

I kept telling you from my experience and other coaches around me, I know quite a few, all seem to train the girls with similar volume. Also, from all my research I've carried out. Someone I prepped took 2nd in bikini (over 30 competitors) and fitness class, so yes I do know what I'm doing. And will blow my own trumpet if I feel I need to, it is proof of my knowledge afterall.

Just for the record, I've been on aas 2 years.

As for real evidence, I Googled and found quite a few bits. Check out Www.bayesianbodybuilding.com /why women should not train like men.


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## Jalex (Nov 16, 2014)

Dark sim said:


> i will dismiss your silly comment about me being insecure. I may come across aggressive, but that will be mainly towards you and ape. Both of you are condescending towards me and many others, so in turn I talk differently to you two. Far from god's gift lol.
> 
> I kept telling you from my experience and other coaches around me, I know quite a few, all seem to train the girls with similar volume. Also, from all my research I've carried out. Someone I prepped took 2nd in bikini (over 30 competitors) and fitness class, so yes I do know what I'm doing. And will blow my own trumpet if I feel I need to, it is proof of my knowledge afterall.
> 
> ...


Thank you.

I think we would actually get on IRL you know. Maybe one day we will find out :lol:


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## Dark sim (May 18, 2013)

Jalex said:


> Thank you.
> 
> I think we would actually get on IRL you know. Maybe one day we will find out :lol:


Yeah maybe.

Told ya, pop by the club I'll queue jump you. Nyne lounge Bexleyheath. Bring your girlfriend.


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## KeiserSoze73 (Feb 24, 2015)

> Hey guys,
> 
> So I'm currently trying to add as much muscle as possible at the moment until my cut at the very end of December.
> 
> ...





> Anything not anecdotal (i.e. someones own personal view/experience).
> 
> p.s. of course ancedotal has it's place and merit but not when you are making definitive statements and telling people they are wrong/do not know anything


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