# Cutting to 10%



## LocoToro (Mar 4, 2014)

Hi Guys,

I've got a bit of a challenge on my hands.

To cut a long story short Work Gym Manager and I ended up in a debate over the effect of Somatotypes on body fat composition which resulted in me taking a bet that I could cut to 10% body fat.

Now, I'm 174cm and started off at 88kg with some good lifting stats (Bench @120kg, DL @170kg, [email protected]) but i always seem to have a layer of fat over my body especially the lower back. I've been told that i'm probably sitting at around 17% but calipers often give a higher reading because i have tight fascia and thick skin (this is according to the Strength and Conditioning Coach).

I've started monitoring my diet and macros more stringently and i've calculated my daily cal intake at deficit to be 2000cals daily with macros at 50p:30f:20c and no more than 100g of carbs per day.

The problem i am facing is that this has lead to a very quick weight loss over the last 2 weeks in that i've lost 6kg. My lifts are still relatively on par but I feel so much smaller than im used to. This rapid weight loss is not usual for me because it usually takes me much longer to shed the weight but at the same time I do realise i'm really cutting down carbs

Have I gone too far off the cutting side ?

Can I bulk clean enough to continue to reduce my body fat?

Is there anything I can do about the skin thickness which seems to be preventing me from having an accurate reading or the more aesthetic look?


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## wat_is_this (Jun 26, 2013)

Skin thickness? I'm no expert but if you have thick skin i'd assume it's fat?

13lbs in two weeks is quite unlikely to be all fat if it's just a change in diet, maybe you lost some water weight with eating less carbs - What is your calorie deficit per day?

You've gotta decide what goal you want, cut to 10% or bulk?

Don't worry about feeling small because you've lost weight, happens to everyone, literally everyone.

But if your lifts aren't suffering, and you don't feel overly weak after a couple weeks of dieting, then keep at it and reach your 10% goal.


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## armor king (Sep 29, 2013)

I agree with wat is this, i cant imagean it would be from thick skin, if you currently look like you do in your pic then to me you look more than 17% maybe 20 to 23, im not saying im right its just that what it looks like to me in your pic. Iv only ever dieted down once and your going through what i went through feeling like your smaller and you will be its loss of muscle glycogen just push through it and keep going. My arm messurent went down about an inch over time but once i finished dieting and started eating carbs again that inch soon came back.


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## saxondale (Nov 11, 2012)

Thick skin? ROFL

Your going to be smaller, you might as well pay the man now.


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## SK50 (Apr 7, 2013)

2000kcal should be fine. The 6kg loss is water and glycogen primarily, not fat or muscle.

I am on day 12 of a cut and am down 4kg exactly and I look and feel tiny.

Just relax and stick to the plan.

I don't know what thick skin is btw... the dermis of the skin surely can't vary that significantly in depth to have "thin" and "thick" classifications. Unless you have some weird condition like pachyderma


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## LocoToro (Mar 4, 2014)

Yeah "thick skin" wasn't my belief.

The coach doing the caliper test said that he thought my fascia seemed to be tight all over so it is quite hard to take a reading as it comes up higher. Not sure how true that is but he swears that he thinks i'm 17 to 18% whereas readings come back at 22% (picture in avatar is out of date - i'll do another one this afternoon.)

Thanks for the advice guys, you've given me the motivation to stay on track, i may switch to using the timed carbs postwork principle rather than cutting out carbs post workout. I got a bit worried because last week i felt weak but that also could be because of recent illness as well.

Daily diet looks like this on Training Days.

Morning:

30mins fasted walking

10g BCAAs

Black Coffee

Lunch:

Drink a fruit juice for PreWorkout

Train Olympic and Compound lifts

Chicken breast, broccoli, green beans, boiled eggs, avocado, lentils or pulses

Mid afternoon:

50g Protein shake

30g mixed berries and nuts

Evening:

Chicken or Meat and protein shake 25g

Non Training days is the same except for pre workout drink.

How does that all sound to you learned guys?

I appreciate all the help, fitness and nutrition has become a real passion for me over the last 12 months and i'm starting to really get to grips with the nutrition knowledge so all the pointers are really helpful.


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## LocoToro (Mar 4, 2014)

View attachment 160975


View attachment 160976


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## armor king (Sep 29, 2013)

I have respect for people getting down to10% bodyfat i know it was hard as **** for me to loose the amount that i lost but dieting is not my style, you have to be head strong and push through good luck


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## ah24 (Jun 25, 2006)

If he's taking your skinfolds correctly - he shouldn't be pinching your fascia?? The idea is you separate the adipose tissue from the fascia and muscle.

Most don't do this and end up with skewed readings (especially the pec).


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## heresBruice (Oct 23, 2014)

At 17% body fat u should start to see the outlines of ur four pack in my opinion. In that new pic I agree with armour king. Looks more like around 22% body fat. Sounds like u are determined mind so it won't take u too long and will be well worth it. Might as well go all the way now otherwise u will be yo yo-ing stuck between bulking and cutting and achieving neither. Go for it and keep posting progress pics.


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## Kurls89 (Aug 18, 2014)

Just to jump in on this thread, im currenty 16-17%BF done all the caliper and tapwe measurements, im looking to cut right down as well, currently floating between 99-103kg from a vast drop from 140kg, I have my diet pretty much in check and have started cycling Clen and T3 but is there anything i could take with them or after i finish them,im wanting to tighten everything up and lean out, i was looking into var but that seems to only be when your around 12%BF, any advice or tips woould be appreciated.


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## Neuroscience (Sep 9, 2014)

hm, whats wih the mafical 10%? i look fat at 10% lol.

i went from 99 kg to 81 kg in 9 months due to a loss of greed for food because of a medication. it doesn't block appetite but reduces food cravings and the desire to eat when your not hungry, it eliminates that reward system. of course i didn't take it for that, it was coincidence so i am now at 7% or maybe 8%.

the thing is, most people who cannot lose weight either have **** insulin sensitivity or high cortisol levels or both.

manipulating these through suppementation makes a huge difference immediately, a friend was 110kg, on test, eq, anadro or something, he ate 2800 calories and low carb and couldn't lose weight. i told him to take glycobol and eat more carbs. he increase his cals to 3200 and ate 300 grams of carbohydrates, 2 months ater he was 100kg.

for the OP i would suggest a nutrient partitioner and something with ashwagandha in it. myodyne ergopure and either glycophase by sns or glycobol by ai sports would make a great stack. i would normally suggest burn24 as it is the ultimate in nutrient partitioning but the big bottle thats better value is sold out.

so ergopure and a nutrient partitioner should really help with your goals. i mean i am naturally skinny fat, but through manipulation of carbohydrate manipulation, preworkouts based on many many different pathways etc, the odd steroid here and there  i have managed to be 182, 83kg, 46cm arms and some strength performances would be dumbbell flyes with 45kgs relatively easily and 50kg but struggling, one armed cable row 127, one arm dumbbell ros 112kgx8, pullups +50kg, chinups+60 kg etc.

i think steroids are a kind of base for me but supplements are the true metabolic manipulators.

let me know if you need any advice.


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## LocoToro (Mar 4, 2014)

Thanks for all your advice guys.

And yes I am definitely sticking with it. I've already been told that my arms are become more defined and I can see the outline of the whole pack in the mornings.

You'll have to forgive my ignorance @Neuroscience I have no idea what a Nutrient Partitioner is or how it works? I do think i may have high cortisol levels, as i have a young daughter who seems to be sleep averse (Parenthood). But i would be very interested in understanding more about these supplement types if you could direct me to a reliable source?


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## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

To the op

cut out the shakes and replace with food.

You need to eat around 1600 cals a day and go very low carbs

its not rocket science.

And you have a way to go before 10% you are around 20-25


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## TommyFire (Jul 18, 2010)

banzi said:


> You need to eat around 1600 cals a day and go very low carbs


No you dont

Poor advice


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## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

TommyFire said:


> No you dont
> 
> Poor advice


Then let him be fat

Who gives a toss.


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## ConP (Aug 18, 2013)

A few things...

When you start a diet you lose glycogen, water retention (especially if you now eat lower sodium while before you consumed excess amounts), the digestive track will work better meaning you literally lose **** weight.

It's not easy to lose muscle if you provide your muscles with the same training stimulus that you built them with AND provide them with protein.

Your diet is lacking protein in the morning.

Now I understand fasting....I used to do a lot of it when I was trying to lose muscle and it worked well!

If your goal is to maintain muscle tissue I would consume 40+ grams protein from the moment you wake up until the moment you go to sleep every 3-4 hours around the clock.

10% is actually really freaking lean!

You will see many bodybuilders grace the stage at this body fat.

Now these dudes rarely win but they wont look out of place as such either (they wont get any compliments on their body fat but they wont be "that guy" that shouldn't be there).

Point being you have a high level goal!

Give it time because even if you do it all correctly from your current body fat level I would allow 12 weeks to reach this goal.

No need to be tempted by fat burning drugs or other "short cuts" but be prepared for hunger, lower than normal energy levels and periods of feeling like "why am I even doing this ****?!" as you work your way to this goal!


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## MrSilver (Aug 4, 2014)

ConP said:


> A few things...
> 
> Give it time because even if you do it all correctly from your current body fat level I would allow 12 weeks to reach this goal.
> 
> No need to be tempted by fat burning drugs or other "short cuts" but *be prepared for hunger*, lower than normal energy levels and periods of feeling like "why am I even doing this ****?!" as you work your way to this goal!


'Dem hunger pangs.. :devil2:


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## LocoToro (Mar 4, 2014)

ConP said:


> A few things...
> 
> When you start a diet you lose glycogen, water retention (especially if you now eat lower sodium while before you consumed excess amounts), the digestive track will work better meaning you literally lose **** weight.
> 
> ...


Thanks,

I've actually given myself a 6 month window to do it in.

If I'm honest I think its just dawning on me just how lean 10% actually is. When the Gym guys told me i was at about 16-18% i thought well its only another 6% or so. But if im closer to 22, which I think I am, then I will be much leaner than I am now.

Still I am going to stick with it because if I can get down to around 12% then I will look in great shape. Despite looking smaller in general my arms are looking bigger (strangely - must be an optical illusion). I'm thinking to move more towards a carb cycling approach - although i find the morning fasts so easy to do because I was fasting for 19hrs a days during the summer during Ramadan.

I also thank you for advising me to stay off the stims because i also had a Google page open on Yohimbine as I type. I think I will carry on in this fashion until the new year and then re-evaluate.

I've learnt that rather than counting cals Im finding it far easier counting macros as strange as that sounds. So long as i dont go beyond 100g of carbs on non training days and 150g on training days then im fairly happy with what im eating


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## ConP (Aug 18, 2013)

LocoToro said:


> Thanks,
> 
> I've actually given myself a 6 month window to do it in.
> 
> ...


Sure that works but remember it does boil down to calories in VS calories out.

Fat has 9 cals per gram so if you're eating a ton of fat you can still be in a calorie surplus even with low carbs.

I would personally track all macros protein (this can come down on days where carbs go up) carb (increase some days when you lower fat) fat (increase on days where you lower carbs).


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## Neuroscience (Sep 9, 2014)

LocoToro said:


> Thanks for all your advice guys.
> 
> And yes I am definitely sticking with it. I've already been told that my arms are become more defined and I can see the outline of the whole pack in the mornings.
> 
> You'll have to forgive my ignorance @Neuroscience I have no idea what a Nutrient Partitioner is or how it works? I do think i may have high cortisol levels, as i have a young daughter who seems to be sleep averse (Parenthood). But i would be very interested in understanding more about these supplement types if you could direct me to a reliable source?


really, a nutrient partitioner is just a bodybuilding term, you could call them insulinmimetics or some call them glucose disposal agents. the purpose is to sensitize your muslce cells to insulin so they take up more glucose from the blood. ideally, the compounds also suppress glut-4, which are glucose transport proteins in fat cells, so that the glucose cannot be converted into fatty acids and stored as body fat. a compound named berberine has been shown to be as efficient in diabetics as metformin, which is a medication taken for high blood sugar. so these products are also anti-diabetic, they will allow you to eat more carbohydrates and utilize them better for muscle growth.

some people who were very bad with insulin sensitivity lost 10kg of fat in 2 months simply because their metabolism worked much better in storing carbohydrates in muscle and not fat.

i would suggest you try a cost effective produc first called glycophase by sns, it is only 25 pounds for a month supply, contains berberine and some other quality ingredients. as for the cortisol i suggest trying ergopure my myodyne. i think those two products are high quality and will cost you less than 60 pounds. after a month you should see and feel the results. the ergopure also improves well-being, better sleep, less stress, stronger immune system etc.

it also sightly reduces estrogen and increases hgh levels. you can buy those two at powermyself. i have used ergopure and it is very good at preventing side effects of trenbolone for example by reducing anxiety and prolactin, and the glycophase i have not used, but i have used similar products in the past.

if you want a product that is a bit more effective even get glycobol, one of my favourite products, but it is 8 pounds more expensive. whatever you chose, i promise you will see some good results. you can read studies on berberine, ashwagandha, polysaccharides for immune function etc.

but i would just buy the products, use them, during this time start doing some reading on supps etc. it is really quite interesting but takes some hundred hours to get into really until you can make sense of it. i probably have about 5000 hours of self-study. i am always there to answer questions, the only things i don't answer is: so and so said that...

but ask me about products, they may be from other companies than powermyself, i am not only representing or trying to sell stuff, i am here to help and i think my 2 suggestions make a ot of sense for you and will help you achieve your goals faster and in the meantime improve many health markers. i do not suggest harmful things ever really except with steroid advice but even there i try to get people to use benign compounds and use a bunch of health prmoting supps along with them.

hope i could help a bit, i think you would be very happy with those two purchases. from then on, once you did some reading and you wanna push things further we ca get into more advanced and complex supplementation, but these products already cover so many bases, you are guaranteed to see and feel positive results.

good luck and have fun


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## TommyFire (Jul 18, 2010)

banzi said:


> Who gives a toss.


The OP


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## UlsterRugby (Nov 16, 2014)

Neuroscience said:


> really, a nutrient partitioner is just a bodybuilding term, you could call them insulinmimetics or some call them glucose disposal agents. the purpose is to sensitize your muslce cells to insulin so they take up more glucose from the blood. ideally, the compounds also suppress glut-4, which are glucose transport proteins in fat cells, so that the glucose cannot be converted into fatty acids and stored as body fat. a compound named berberine has been shown to be as efficient in diabetics as metformin, which is a medication taken for high blood sugar. so these products are also anti-diabetic, they will allow you to eat more carbohydrates and utilize them better for muscle growth.
> 
> some people who were very bad with insulin sensitivity lost 10kg of fat in 2 months simply because their metabolism worked much better in storing carbohydrates in muscle and not fat.
> 
> ...


I'm starting a diet tomorrow to lose fat and keep what muscle I have! I've set myself 30 days to see what change I can make in my body, I'm going to run clen 2 days on 2 days off and SuperDrol for 30 days for strength and to hold onto muscle, if I run a low carb diet which supplement is the best for me to look into!!?


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## Neuroscience (Sep 9, 2014)

hm, i just made a post but it disappeared.

i was wondering how low lowcarb is for you. the best fatburner right now in my view is brawn kamikaze. it has 200mg caffeine and bacopa monnieri which is anxiolytic so you do not even feel those 200. it also targets fat loss via a number of different pathways. it is very thermogenic but never makes you jittery of feel bad. the ingredient ist is very impressive.

Caffeine anhydrous: 200 mg

Bacopa monnieri extract: 150 mg

Wakame extract (20% fucoxanthin):100 mg

Berberine HCl: 250 mg

TTA: 600 mg

3,5-T2: 300 mcg

Potassium gluconate: 250 mg

this is for 2 caps, 60 caps bottle. you can go up to 3 according to recommendation. i think 2 does the job perfectly from what i have seen.

i also asked wether you have used superdrol and the particular brand you will use before, as there is no more superdrol like it used to be 2-3 years ago.

my advice to hold on to muscle would be 40mg ostarine. i was dumbfounded by how effective it was.. (brawn o-bol). stenght increases and dense full muscles.

if you want real incredible results stack transdermal trestolone with transdermal formestane. the formestane is so strong, it will keep the otherwise strongly aromatizing trestolone completely dry. recommendations are 100mg per day, one bottle lasting 30 days. i suggest using 200mg with 200mg formestane. you then need 2 dermatrest and 1 transform. you will gain strength like crazy on this combination even in kcal deficit.

i do not think you will need clen. if you want something to help you burn fat, feel good and even increase anabolism. why don't you run t3 at 50mcg per day? much more effective in my view.


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## Neuroscience (Sep 9, 2014)

another thing:

why do people always tak about suffering on a diet and how bad one can feel etc.

with the right supplements, nutrient partitioners etc. you can cut below 10% without even eating a typical bb diet. i eat healthy and cook a lot, also do not eat too much but i do eat muffins, cake, icecream, pizza etc, and somethind of those items everyday at least once. i was 99kg with 48.5cm arms and probably 20% bf.

now i weigh around 82-83. i hope it doesn't get annoying but this is me at 81kg and 45cm arms. i now have gained about 2kg on trestolone and 1 cm on arms.

i never felt bad from cutting or having low bf and i have a prior health condition that makes me feel bad all the time, including pain, flu symptoms and sever chronic fatigue, and i didn't have problems losing this weight.


View attachment 161666


i would say that i am below 10% in these.


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## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

Neuroscience said:


> another thing:
> 
> why do people always tak about suffering on a diet and how bad one can feel etc.
> 
> ...


as long as you eat below maintenance you can get to sub 10%, you can eat whatever you like.


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## Big ape (May 5, 2011)

its not hard to get there ... hard part is maintaining low BF ... while still having a good social life, feeling normal and not thinking about food 24/7, sex drive


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## Neuroscience (Sep 9, 2014)

well i feel as **** as i did when i was fat...lol. no actually i feel better. don't think about food much. don't have sex drive though but think it is due to medication.


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## zacsky2 (Feb 20, 2014)

Big ape said:


> its not hard to get there ... hard part is maintaining low BF ... while still having a good social life, feeling normal and not thinking about food 24/7, sex drive


Why would sex drive be an issue mate ?


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## Big ape (May 5, 2011)

zacsky2 said:


> Why would sex drive be an issue mate ?


Just is when your getting to low bodyfat without drugs ... have no sex drive at all


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## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

Big ape said:


> its not hard to get there ... hard part is maintaining low BF ... while still having a good social life, feeling normal and not thinking about food 24/7, sex drive


Why is maintaining low bf hard?

Many people stay the same weight all their adult lives.

Its just learning not to eat when you are not hungry.

Once you are in shape 8% or less you can maintain that by intermittent fasting and still have a high carb day every 4 days or so,


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## Big ape (May 5, 2011)

banzi said:


> Why is maintaining low bf hard?
> 
> Many people stay the same weight all their adult lives.
> 
> ...


lol its not that easy


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## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

Big ape said:


> lol its not that easy


I can manage my bf simply by manipulating carbs.

If you are 8% then its just a matter of eating a weekly average of maintenance cals

Loads of ways to skin a cat.


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## pooledaniel (May 8, 2013)

Big ape said:


> Just is when your getting to low bodyfat without drugs ... have no sex drive at all


Agreed on this one!


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## LocoToro (Mar 4, 2014)

Time to bump my own thread.

I'm less than a week away from the end of my bet and whilst I don't think I will hit the magic 10% body fat mark I've learnt a hell of a lot and I've got closer to it than I've ever been.

I initially ran a lowish carb diet for 4 months mainly out of ignorance and not really knowing what I was doing. I'm the type of person that won't be able to fully do something until he understands why and how it works not just being content that it works.

Well, truth be told, that didn't really work. Lost a fair amount of water weight but after a month the progress as slow and I started to look like average joe.

Then after doing more studying and research I understood that removing carbs alone wasn't enough. I understood that you need to replace the energy source and finally moved on to a Keto type diet with carb up once a week. I've been doing it for about a month now and seen more gains in one month than I saw in the previous 3.

Will post some before and after pictures. They're not amazing but for me it's a big step forward


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## Cronus (Jun 5, 2012)

Fcuk these guys cutting on 1600-2000 kcals. I'd much rather eat 3000kcals and just add cardio 5-6 week.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Cronus said:


> Fcuk these guys cutting on 1600-2000 kcals. I'd much rather eat 3000kcals and just add cardio 5-6 week.


And I'd much sooner cut on 2000 kcal and do no cardio whatsoever! It largely comes down to how hungry people feel when eating less food, which can vary significantly between individuals.


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## LocoToro (Mar 4, 2014)

So like I said, they're not amazing but i've never really had any sort of definition anywhere really. So this for me is a big step forward.



One taken when i started and other only recently.

On the topic of cutting cals, i've been at a soft limit of 2000 cals and don't feel hungry at all. The only pangs I get is the day after a Carb Load (which admittedly is rarely clean).

What BF % do you guys think?


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## Growing Lad (Feb 14, 2009)

Good work. 15%


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## LocoToro (Mar 4, 2014)

Thanks, any advice from here ?

should I keep going as is or change something.

Diet is staying the same for now, but training has moved to more strength and hypertrophy orientated.

progress starting to slow a bit


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## seandog69 (Mar 8, 2013)

thats some great work put in there bud

IMO its working and your happy enough with the method then keep at it, maybe up cals 1-200 on lifting days for a bit of a lean bulk also

the more muscle you have the more fat/cals you burn when at rest


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## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

LocoToro said:


> So like I said, they're not amazing but i've never really had any sort of definition anywhere really. So this for me is a big step forward.
> 
> View attachment 168915
> View attachment 168916
> ...


thats great work, forget the BF levels, you look good and thats that.


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## Dragon555 (May 27, 2008)

Neuroscience said:


> hm, whats wih the mafical 10%? i look fat at 10% lol.
> 
> i went from 99 kg to 81 kg in 9 months due to a loss of greed for food because of a medication. it doesn't block appetite but reduces food cravings and the desire to eat when your not hungry, it eliminates that reward system. of course i didn't take it for that, it was coincidence so i am now at 7% or maybe 8%.
> 
> ...


Hi mate tried to pm you but says your box is full...

Well done to the OP though keep going


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## paulieplumb (Mar 30, 2015)

LocoToro said:


> So like I said, they're not amazing but i've never really had any sort of definition anywhere really. So this for me is a big step forward.
> 
> View attachment 168915
> View attachment 168916
> ...


thats great work man in that time,its all about finding what works for you too.keto is a good way of eating.

id forget about the bf figure for the minute and keep doing what your doing training and dieting right!well done bud


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