# Squat form



## c4nsy (Aug 23, 2012)

Help needed, struggling with squat form. Any advice much appreciated.


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## Fadi (Dec 14, 2010)

c4nsy said:


> Help needed, struggling with squat form. Any advice much appreciated.


 1. Your set up is required above all else. It was absent. And this point is proven at the 13 seconds mark, when just before you descended into your second rep, you made some adjustments with the width/positioning of your feet/stance.

2. I see an attitude of hesitancy in your whole approach, from walking towards the bar, to the execution of the actual lift. And that's understandable when you continue reading my analysis.

3. This hesitancy manifested itself on the 4th rep when you began to drop your chest and raise your hips at the same time, seeking more muscle recruitment from your most powerful muscle of all, your glutes. Big deal? Yes, as this places tremendous pressure on your lumber spine, leading to lower back injury.

What is needed here? First, a reduction of load on the bar is necessary in order for us to properly execute the lift. Not only would this decrease in load allow us to fix our form, but it'll also add volumes to our confidence in the way we approach and lift the weight.

A score out of 100, would be 80%. Not bad as you can see, but plenty of room for improvement should you ever decide to go heavier than what I see in the above video clip.

Fadi.


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## c4nsy (Aug 23, 2012)

Fadi65 said:


> 1. Your set up is required above all else. It was absent. And this point is proven at the 13 seconds mark, when just before you descended into your second rep, you made some adjustments with the width/positioning of your feet/stance.
> 
> 2. I see an attitude of hesitancy in your whole approach, from walking towards the bar, to the execution of the actual lift. And that's understandable when you continue reading my analysis.
> 
> ...


 Thankyou @Fadi65 , Ill drop the weight next session and focus on getting this right, its something i want to improve on.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Fadi is much better placed to comment on form than me but I'll just mention you're walking a lot further back carrying the bar than you need to, and obviously way beyond where the safety bars would be of any use to you.


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## c4nsy (Aug 23, 2012)

Ultrasonic said:


> Fadi is much better placed to comment on form than me but I'll just mention you're walking a lot further back carrying the bar than you need to, and obviously way beyond where the safety bars would be of any use to you.


 Yes your right, i feel to close to the rack otherwise. I think its the design, safety bars arnt very long and i feel im going to hit the bar on the brackets on the up. But i will do them closer as i notice this myself.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

c4nsy said:


> Yes your right, i feel to close to the rack otherwise. I think its the design, safety bars arnt very long and i feel im going to hit the bar on the brackets on the up. But i will do them closer as i notice this myself.


 You're right about the design and a proper power cage would be better.

I think I've probably only ended up actually dumping the bar on safeties twice (and is a sign I messed up) but I feel a lot more confident pushing myself on squats knowing they are there just in case.

Without actually trying your rack I'm not 100% sure what I'd do though, as on the flip side you don't want to end up knocking yourself off balance by cathing the weights on the frame.


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## monkeybiker (Jul 21, 2010)

c4nsy said:


> Yes your right, i feel to close to the rack otherwise. I think its the design, safety bars arnt very long and i feel im going to hit the bar on the brackets on the up. But i will do them closer as i notice this myself.


 I used to train with a york squat rack with safety arms like that at home. You need to find the correct position using an empty bar. They should be long enough and you should not catch the lift off hooks if you are standing in the correct place. When you find the correct position look were your feet are relative to the rack and try to remember it.

It is a poor design but you should be able to work with it but I ended up getting a proper enclosed power rack.


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## ILLBehaviour (Dec 20, 2014)

Squat lower, keep your head up, push through your heels and don't bounce when you push on the way up, needs to be a slower more controlled movement.


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## c4nsy (Aug 23, 2012)

ILLBehaviour said:


> Squat lower, keep your head up, push through your heels and don't bounce when you push on the way up, needs to be a slower more controlled movement.


 Cheers, i try and go lower but i have really tight hamstrings. Even with Romanian deadlifts i struggle, i just manage to get past knees then back starts to bend. Flexibility never been good.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

c4nsy said:


> Cheers, i try and go lower but i have really tight hamstrings. Even with Romanian deadlifts i struggle, i just manage to get past knees then back starts to bend. Flexibility never been good.


 You may be able to improve flexibility over time but you're doing the right/safe thing as you are then.


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## monkeybiker (Jul 21, 2010)

c4nsy said:


> Cheers, i try and go lower but i have really tight hamstrings. Even with Romanian deadlifts i struggle, i just manage to get past knees then back starts to bend. Flexibility never been good.


 You could try a wider foot stance and also I feel your feet are angled quite a lot. I would try having your feet more forward. With your feet you should push out as if you are trying to spread the floor which will be easier to do if your feet are more forward.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Just watched the video again. Are you consciously stopping your knees going further forward or us your ankle flexibility limiting you?


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## c4nsy (Aug 23, 2012)

monkeybiker said:


> You could try a wider foot stance and also I feel your feet are angled quite a lot. I would try having your feet more forward. With your feet you should push out as if you are trying to spread the floor which will be easier to do if your feet are more forward.


 Its only been the last few weeks that ive angled feet out more as it felt more comfy but ill take that on board. How much wider are we talking? Cheers


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## c4nsy (Aug 23, 2012)

Ultrasonic said:


> Just watched the video again. Are you consciously stopping your knees going further forward or us your ankle flexibility limiting you?


 No im not, didnt notice to be honest. Its just the way i do it naturally. Im guessing that my knees should be coming forward? Is there a way to improve this?


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

c4nsy said:


> No im not, didnt notice to be honest. Its just the way i do it naturally. Im guessing that my knees should be coming forward? Is there a way to improve this?


 It's complicated, as there is a trade off between forces at the knee (which increase as it moves further forward) and forces in the lower back (which will decrease as the knees move further forward as this will allow you to keep your spine more upright). The following videos give you some idea of the factors here:


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

I don't think what you're doing with your knees is obviously wrong by the way, but it looks like you might not be bringing them so far forward towards then end of you set and I was wondering if this might have been contributing to you falling forward a little.

@Fadi65 is far more knowledgeable though, and if he had time to comment more specifically than he did earlier on what you might consider changing this would probably be helpful.


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## c4nsy (Aug 23, 2012)

Ultrasonic said:


> It's complicated, as there is a trade off between forces at the knee (which increase as it moves further forward) and forces in the lower back (which will decrease as the knees move further forward as this will allow you to keep your spine more upright). The following videos give you some idea of the factors here:


 Very interesting. Ive just opened up my stance a bit wider and squat and it allows me to come down futher than with a narrower stance. Not sure how i will fair with sone weight. Knee comes further forward aswell. I feel it in the inside of the leg but hamstring not sure if this right or not.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

c4nsy said:


> Very interesting. Ive just opened up my stance a bit wider and squat and it allows me to come down futher than with a narrower stance. Not sure how i will fair with sone weight. Knee comes further forward aswell. I feel it in the inside of the leg but hamstring not sure if this right or not.


 That's probably hip adductors you're feeling being stretched not hamstrings.

(I have long legs and a short torso and so I benefit from a wider stance than most would probably use.)


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## c4nsy (Aug 23, 2012)

Some squats from tonight

20kg, 40kg, 60kg

Tried a wider stance tonight and think it improved overall depth not by much. I cant help but keep my toes pointing out. Also my left knee giving me a bit of pain? Please help...


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## Fadi (Dec 14, 2010)

c4nsy said:


> Some squats from tonight
> 
> 20kg, 40kg, 60kg
> 
> Tried a wider stance tonight and think it improved overall depth not by much. I cant help but keep my toes pointing out. Also my left knee giving me a bit of pain? Please help...


 I watched all three sets, from the heaviest 20kg to the lightest 60kg, and no, my eyes and my English are doing just fine!

So why am I being "funny" then?

In fact, I'm being serious here, because the 20kg looked the most awkward for you, as if you needed some weight/some pressure to force you or to ease you into the groove, so to speak. So even 40kg wasn't heavy enough, but 60kg was just right.

Did I notice any break in form? Yes for sure, and it's all happening at the lumber spine region, the lowest part of your back. Do I have a solution for you? You bet I do!

First though, are these runners you're wearing, if so, they would need to come off please. Only solid ground would do underneath your feet. Here's why:

https://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/topic/298601-increase-your-squat-weight-instantly/?do=embed

After reading the above article, please do not mistake my message for some sort of push for lifters having to use weightlifting shoes in order to squat properly, that was not the thrust of my message. The point was the highlighting of a solid surface as opposed to a pliable/springy surface underneath your feet, where (after all) it's where force originates from..., we do not want to lose any of it.

BTW, since your communication with @Ultrasonic, resulting in you widening the stance of your feet and managing a deeper position, I would like to tell you that as far as your nervous system is concerned, and your stabiliser muscles are concerned, you've gone back to square one (or at least close to it), learning to apply force through a different platform/foundation/make that a wider foundation if you like. My point is, expect to find a new footing now, literally and figuratively speaking.

So where to from here?

No more squats is what I suggest, but only for about 2 to 3 weeks. Why is that? Because I need you and your nervous system to learn one hell of a lesson. And in the process, not only fix your squat form, but also strengthen your lower back beyond what you thought was possible. For that, I need you to take a look at the video clip below please:






Even though the clip goes for 35 seconds with some slow motion, I only need you to watch the first 2 seconds for my message to be delivered. I would like you to start the video clip, then pause it at the 2 seconds mark, because I'm only interested in you performing the 1st pull of the snatch (to the knees) and not any higher, where the 2nd pull etc. comes in . I need you to grab the bar, wider than a clean or a conventional deadlift width grip. By doing so , you will be forced to bring both your hips as well as your glutes right down. You can kiss your tight (and/or weak) hamstrings goodbye after this also..., though you would need to get stuck into some static hamstring and quad stretching afterwards.

I need you to deadlift the bar, preferably with 40kg, 10kg on each side, as that would give us the right height off the platform. A bodybuilder in your gym might think you're trying to do a bent over row that's gone all wrong, you can inform them otherwise.

Are you able to do this for me (after watching Liao Hui), and then I can make some comment as to where we go from here please? I can *not* proceed further, knowing that your lower back needs maximum attention. I need to see a lower back that is rock solid (no play/movement/relaxation), as well as being strong enough to maintain its natural lumbar spine arch throughout the lift, for no less will ever do if your aim is to increase load on the squat bar.










Fadi.


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## Uryens (Aug 10, 2017)

Fadi65 said:


> No more squats is what I suggest, but only for about 2 to 3 weeks. Why is that? Because I need you and your nervous system to learn one hell of a lesson. And in the process, not only fix your squat form, but also strengthen your lower back beyond what you thought was possible. For that, I need you to take a look at the video clip below please:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 You are a blessing Fadi :thumb

So for what I understand of your post, the first part of pull in the snacth will mainly work the hammies as well as strengthening the lower back ?

I asked because after my squat, I usualy do stiff leg dead but I mainly feel my lower back and not so much the hammies, so that could be a movement that brings the best of both, working the hammies and strengthening the lower back.

@c4nsy : sorry to interfere a bit with your post man, but I believe that you can also benefit from this question  wish you a good squat buddy


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## c4nsy (Aug 23, 2012)

Fadi65 said:


> I watched all three sets, from the heaviest 20kg to the lightest 60kg, and no, my eyes and my English are doing just fine!
> 
> So why am I being "funny" then?
> 
> ...


 Many thanks for the detailed reply. Yes your 100% i found the 60kg more comfortable, and my whole aim was to try and keep my lower back arched. Ill take what you have said and get that lower back sorted. How often should i be doing this exercise per week? Thanks for the help.


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## c4nsy (Aug 23, 2012)

Uryens said:


> You are a blessing Fadi :thumb
> 
> So for what I understand of your post, the first part of pull in the snacth will mainly work the hammies as well as strengthening the lower back ?
> 
> ...


 No worries mate, need as much info as possible


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## Fadi (Dec 14, 2010)

Uryens said:


> You are a blessing Fadi :thumb
> 
> So for what I understand of your post, the first part of pull in the snacth will mainly work the hammies as well as strengthening the lower back ?


 The 1st pull of the snatch activates the hammies and the glutes, and as soon as you break away from the hole and begin to ascend, your quads being to join the party. Your lower back is always there during the 1st pull, hence it's paramount that special attention is paid to this very strong, yet susceptible/vulnerable section we call the lumbar spine, as seen in the "C" section of the left image below:



















c4nsy said:


> I asked because after my squat, I usualy do stiff leg dead but I mainly feel my lower back and not so much the hammies, so that could be a movement that brings the best of both, working the hammies and strengthening the lower back.


 I wouldn't necessarily jump onto performing the snatch deadlift just yet. For your specific need, I see something else. I see you waving goodbye to the stiff legged deadlift, and saying hello to the Romanian deadlift. However that is not all, because if my aim is to really isolate my hamstring whilst using a compound movement such as a Romanian dead, then I would be either dreaming, or risking an injury when I know better.

Why do I say the above, and what could be that "better" approach?

Performing some isolation work for your hammies *prior* to embracing some Romanians! In other words, exhaust the hamstring fiber muscles enough, so (you guessed it)..., so your mighty lumbar spine would not take a beating before your targeted muscles (your hammies), are done screaming!

Fadi.


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## Uryens (Aug 10, 2017)

@Fadi65 : thank you very much for your very detailed explanation, I would adapt my training right on


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## Fadi (Dec 14, 2010)

c4nsy said:


> How often should i be doing this exercise per week? Thanks for the help.


 My pleasure Champ.

No less than 5x/week, or every time you're in the gym.

I'm not after some killer weights here, just the 40kg until you could do it with your eyes shut..., until this pulling movement becomes an extension of you. No thought process re the stance; no thought process re how high or low your back side is, no thought process whether your lumbar spine is actually in its naturally arched position or not..., no thought process at all.

What then if no thought process?

Only excitement and enjoyment that you'll be smashing it once you commit to lifting it, no more than that..., period!

A true fighter does *not* think, he reacts to the situation at hand in the most appropriate manner known to man. Similarly, a weightlifter, or as in your case, a squatter or someone who has mastered the art of pulling/deadlifting off the platform, you're not there to *think* but to lift!

The above can only come to fruition through some kick ass high frequency practice. Hence, my reply to you was 5x/week.

How many sets how many reps? Whatever you can show me, and 10 reps per set if the form is perfect, due to the currently light weight. I would like to see form, and not some beasty weight go up now, you're doing the snatch deadlift for a reason, and the reason is to improve movement efficiency in the squats, similar in a way to how the kinematic chain in bio mechanics work...,transferring forces from one part of the body to the next.

Fadi.


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## c4nsy (Aug 23, 2012)

Fadi65 said:


> My pleasure Champ.
> 
> No less than 5x/week, or every time you're in the gym.
> 
> ...


 Thanks again fadi, i look forward to my progress.


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## c4nsy (Aug 23, 2012)

@Fadi65 i done these at the end of my push session tonight. I did adjust slightly through the sets as i wanted to improve position not sure this happened. Had a wider grip than normal also. Any pointers?


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## Fadi (Dec 14, 2010)

c4nsy said:


> Fadi65 i done these at the end of my push session tonight. I did adjust slightly through the sets as i wanted to improve position not sure this happened. Had a wider grip than normal also. Any pointers?


 I'm not sure why (and this is entirely my fault), I expected someone from your gym to actually show you the proper technique of pulling off the floor. Unfortunately it's 100% wrong. And I'm very much aware of the bluntness in my remark. Here's the deal, I need you to go back and watch the video clip (only the first 2 seconds of it and no more please). When you do that, then you watch your own video, you'd realise exactly why I said 100% wrong.

You are starting exactly at the point Liao Hui is finishing on. In other words, your hips/glutes are already poised for the second pull, when you haven't even begun the first pull yet. What I need from you is this, and I need a mate of yours in the gym to do this for me please.

Ask someone to place their right hand on your lumbar spine and push it down, down low. I need that person to place their left hand on your chest and push it back, creating an arch in your entire spine. The outcome of this would simply equal = bum down and chest up, with a naturally looking arched spinal column.

I wish I could be there to help you with it mate, but I'm like 17,000km away from you if you're anywhere near the city of London.

Do *not* give up Champ..., I won't.

Fadi's rule: Consistency to get it, Persistency to keep it.

I need you to have both of these attributes if succeeding is your aim.

Cheers.


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## c4nsy (Aug 23, 2012)

Thanks again @Fadi65. So you mean i have to talk to someone in my gym :lol: . In my head my asz is a lot lower and i am seriously trying to do this and get my chest up, i know youll say this isnt to do with flexibility but it feels as though it is. I wont give up until i get it right. Is there anything i can do at home to improve when i get to the gym? Thanks


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## Fadi (Dec 14, 2010)

c4nsy said:


> Thanks again @Fadi65. So you mean i have to talk to someone in my gym :lol: . In my head my asz is a lot lower and i am seriously trying to do this and get my chest up, i know youll say this isnt to do with flexibility but it feels as though it is. I wont give up until i get it right. Is there anything i can do at home to improve when i get to the gym? Thanks


 Do some static holds (30 seconds) hamstrings and quadriceps stretching at home after walking on the spot for 5 minutes or so. In other words, when you've warmed up a bit. *No* static stretching prior to training but *always after *training.

When you have few minutes, please watch these two videos:











Now only someone with a background experience in Olympic weightlifting would tell you this, so here goes: rejoice/be happy when your chins bleed, or at least have some skin scrpaed off them. If the bones of your chins are not sore, and have no mark on them whatsoever, then you''d know that the bar was way too far from you, and needs to be touching your chins before you initiate the breaking of the bar from the floor.

Fadi.


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## c4nsy (Aug 23, 2012)

Not much better i know but i had my mate do as you said before this video for a couple of sets. Im finding it difficult to keep chest forward and i notice watching video back my shoulders seem to round aswell? I was debating whether to put video on until im getting right, but any other advice would be great. Dont want to waste your time @Fadi65!! No excuse for the runners aswell


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## Fadi (Dec 14, 2010)

c4nsy said:


> Not much better i know but i had my mate do as you said before this video for a couple of sets. Im finding it difficult to keep chest forward and i notice watching video back my shoulders seem to round aswell? I was debating whether to put video on until im getting right, but any other advice would be great. Dont want to waste your time @Fadi65!! No excuse for the runners aswell


 We need to nail this, and from what I've seen so far, we're not doing that. Your shoulders and chest are both behind the bar instead of over it. I can very clearly see that you're not comfortable in the least in that set up position, as I can see the bar move forward then back in line again as you pull. So enough with the negative as that's getting us nowhere fast. I'm going to suggest yet another exercise, however this time, it's black and white with zero greyness. Two reasons for this, the first being that I'm not there with you to correct you properly, and the second reason, is that with this exercise, you either follow the laws of physics or the bar will follow the law of gravity and land right in front of you on the floor. The exercise is none other than the front squat.

I am presenting to you Vencelas Dabaya, not because he's lifting an astronomical weight (because he's not), though it's a respectable weight nonetheless. I'm presenting Dabaya because he's showing control and good form during the whole movement; that is why I'm putting him up here as an example for you to follow.






Please start with an empty bar first. The whole idea behind everything I'm doing with you here, is your lower back and your chest. Both of these body parts would be well looked after with the front squat. Your lower back would be placed in a neutral lumbar spine position, with elbows held up high with a chest up (proud look) position also.










Once you master that first highly erect front squat position you see above left, your back squat form would improve. After all, this is the whole idea behind what we're doing here right!

Cheers

Fadi.


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## c4nsy (Aug 23, 2012)

Thanks again, i have done fronts before but along time ago. I couldnt get on with the grip that vencelas uses and instead remember crossing my arms instead. Is this ok or do i try this grip. If i remember rightly my elbows didnt want to come up high enough.


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## Fadi (Dec 14, 2010)

c4nsy said:


> Thanks again, i have done fronts before but along time ago. I couldnt get on with the grip that vencelas uses and instead remember crossing my arms instead. Is this ok or do i try this grip. If i remember rightly my elbows didnt want to come up high enough.


 If I was the Olympic weightlifting/power coach standing close to Dabaya, I'd guarantee you he wouldn't be the lazy lifter that he's displaying in that video I uploaded. What does all this mean to you now? It means I am a hard ass when it comes to what I expect from a lifter. So please forget this two fingers hooking under a bar type of a front squat that you see some "lazy ass" Olympic weightlifters using, and instead, apply a damn hard effort on your part to keep a closed hand onto that bar. I need to clarify lest everyone reading here start to misunderstand what I'm going on about.

Olympic weightlifters like Dabaya *can *front squat with a closed fist, yet sometimes opt for that lazy option of the two fingers front squat because..., well because he can! It wouldn't be a habit I'd recommend a lifter get into and one I'd pull a lifter on if I saw it in person. OK great Fadi, so where do I fit in, in all of these stuff you're writing about?

"Turtleback" position is what everyone who is *not* an Olympic weightlifter, would end up having if they learn to/rely on front squatting with two fingers. "Turtleback" is the description given to an upper back that has rounded forward, giving the lifter that turtle-shell appearance. Your shoulders need to be upright, and this upright position is connected to the hand grip on the bar.

So if I'm asking for a closed fist on the bar, am I expecting you to have your entire hand closed tightly around the bar? No, I am *not *expecting that from you. Having some relaxation of your hands is fine, unless you were a gymnast like I was before switching over to OW. So the basic premise here, is to keep as much of your hand on the bar as possible during the front squat. This would increase rather than decrease your chances of maintaining a nice wide shoulder spread/base, where the bar can comfortably rest. You can aim for four fingers and thumb to be wrapped around the bar, and then go from there. Sometimes a weight on the bar actually helps with this compared to having an empty bar.

Why am I asking you to be persistent and to persevere once you begin with this? Because I know for a fact that the front squat is the primer for a kick ass back squat, that's why. I won't go into the reasons here, so you'll just need to trust me on that.






I know Ben Pakulski is not talking front squats specific, but please listen to what he says re the activation of your leg muscles. And whilst I've got Ben in that wonderful low squat position, I'd like you to get in that same position and push your elbows out against your adductor muscles..., they're the ones inside of your legs. Once you start to squat low like an Olympic weightlifter, these babies begin to really tighten up (and grow big of course). So you've asked me before about what you could do at home whilst away from the gym. Well, these leg adductor stretches would put a smile on my face for starters.










Cheers...

Fadi.


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## c4nsy (Aug 23, 2012)

Great read again, i look forward to putting all this in practice. I will get there in the end just need to persevere :thumbup1:


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## c4nsy (Aug 23, 2012)

So i attempted the front squat tonight with the weight as suggested. Thats the first time ive felt comfortable with that grip so thats a plus for me as usually cross my arms. I managed 4 fingers around the bar and felt much more comfortable with the lift. Cheers @Fadi65 hope this is a step in the right directions, im sure youll let me know if not.


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## c4nsy (Aug 23, 2012)

Started with 3x8 with the bar then 5x5 with 40kg. Only problem i found was my left wrist was hurting but think this was down to bar coming forward so corrected this.






Still not sure if this is correct either way getting much more depth. Look forward to hearing yout critiques.


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## Fadi (Dec 14, 2010)

c4nsy said:


> Started with 3x8 with the bar then 5x5 with 40kg. Only problem i found was my left wrist was hurting but think this was down to bar coming forward so corrected this.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 OMG!!! Is that you Champ! I couldn't believe what I was seeing: *BRAVO!*

Absolutely love it Champ! Perfect form 10/10

I'm sorry I did not see your earlier post and have obviously missed you tagging me. Just as well you put up two videos, because even though I could see how your back was doing with the second video, it was the first (with just the bar) that told me how you were holding your elbows high etc.

Re your wrist hurting, please invest in some weightlifting wrist wraps for added support:










You have truly impressed me, and I'm damn proud of your superb attitude. I'm extending my right hand towards yours for a man to man hand shake Champion: very well done!

Fadi.


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## c4nsy (Aug 23, 2012)

Fadi65 said:


> OMG!!! Is that you Champ! I couldn't believe what I was seeing: *BRAVO!*
> 
> Absolutely love it Champ! Perfect form 10/10
> 
> ...


 Cheers @Fadi65 means a lot but i couldnt have done it without your advice in the first place so thanks for this. Ill get on and order some wrist wraps. Im wanting to start wendlers next week but unsure im ready yet or that it could help with form as for the starting at a low weight. Would it be ok to carry on with the front squat instead of back squat for this routine? Or is there something else you can advise for getting my big lifts up? Again appreciate your help.


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## Uryens (Aug 10, 2017)

c4nsy said:


> Started with 3x8 with the bar then 5x5 with 40kg. Only problem i found was my left wrist was hurting but think this was down to bar coming forward so corrected this.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 You are killing it man :cool2: , huge improvement from your starting point, your front squat looks better than the back squat you posted while the move it's harder, congratz :thumbup1:


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## c4nsy (Aug 23, 2012)

Uryens said:


> You are killing it man :cool2: , huge improvement from your starting point, your front squat looks better than the back squat you posted while the move it's harder, congratz :thumbup1:


 Cheers my friend a long way to go yet, i actually enjoy the front squat more


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## Fadi (Dec 14, 2010)

c4nsy said:


> Cheers @Fadi65 means a lot but i couldnt have done it without your advice in the first place so thanks for this. Ill get on and order some wrist wraps. Im wanting to start wendlers next week but unsure im ready yet or that it could help with form as for the starting at a low weight. Would it be ok to carry on with the front squat instead of back squat for this routine? Or is there something else you can advise for getting my big lifts up? Again appreciate your help.


 Thank you for asking the most relative of questions. My advice to you at this juncture of your lifting, would be to maintain full focus on your lifting form specialisation ..., strength gains or your attention to this matter can wait until 2018.

For now, our aim is to not only master the front squat and fully ccomprehend the reason behind that, but we also want to get stronger in the front squat. This lift has the incredible ability to set you up perfectly for both back squats as well as deadlifts.

Right now I'm seeing in you a young eagle who's just taken its first flight. Its wings though not yet powerful, do have the potential to become so with more practice runs. Force/demand too soon of that young eagle to become the predetor that he could be, soon enough, and you'd risk jeopardising its whole powerful future.

Please trust me on that Champ ...

Fadi.


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## Vern (Dec 5, 2017)

c4nsy said:


> Very interesting. Ive just opened up my stance a bit wider and squat and it allows me to come down futher than with a narrower stance. Not sure how i will fair with sone weight. Knee comes further forward aswell. I feel it in the inside of the leg but hamstring not sure if this right or not.


 Just worked out why my squat is s**t and is much Lower compared to my deadlifts I've tried all sorts over 25 years of lifting to improve squats this video explains it all next time you see someone good morning a squat there could be a better reason than flexibility


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## c4nsy (Aug 23, 2012)

So im still trying to improve my front squat form, as you will see in the next video still alot of improvment to be made! Now im hitting the heavier weight form is off. The video is of 6th of 8 sets






My main problem today was that my knees were bending in when the going got tough, i can also see on the 3rd rep my elbows drop considerably hense the sore wrist now. Question is best way of improving this? I really am enjoying this exercise at the moment, legs are in pieces after but i want improvements!!


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## Fadi (Dec 14, 2010)

c4nsy said:


> So im still trying to improve my front squat form, as you will see in the next video still alot of improvment to be made! Now im hitting the heavier weight form is off. The video is of 6th of 8 sets
> 
> My main problem today was that my knees were bending in when the going got tough, i can also see on the 3rd rep my elbows drop considerably hense the sore wrist now. Question is best way of improving this? I really am enjoying this exercise at the moment, legs are in pieces after but i want improvements!!


 1. You have to earn lifting the heavier weight. How is that done?

2. You earn the privilege to lift heavier weights by maintaining the same form on the heavier weight that you've applied (are able to maintain) whilst lifting the lighter weights.

3. Progressive overload is an overloaded BS concept and needs to fly right out the window, unless you can maintain form as you introduce it into your lifting program. In other words, progressive overload would (in my opinion) be called regressive overload if and when the lifter increases the weight, yet loses form as a trade off of doing so. You can not (under any circumstances), accept a load increase, at the expanse of a loss of form. *A bucket with holes in its bottom has no business being at the riverside, period!*

OK, I'm being brutally honest as my usual self, and it would be absolutely insulting to your intelligence to be anything but honest with you, I believe I owe you that much, and you deserve nothing less than that.

My honesty does not come empty handed, as I've got two options on offer for you that would see you through to the other side of the river. Here, let me show you how ...

I know that it would be upsetting for you if I was to ask you to reduce the weight in order to maintain form. I am also not blind, and I hate the wasting of time. So here's what I've got for you if your wish is to remain on the heavy sets of 75kg.

I need you to no longer perform sets of whatever number of reps except the number ONE!

Confused? No need to be, here's how we do it ...

I need to see you perform sets of one reps instead of one or two or three sets of whatever number of reps. So, instead of performing (say) a set of 10 reps, I would like to see you perform 10 sets of 1 rep. I've started a thread that alluded to this concept I'm referring to here, however here (in this post of mine), my purpose is slightly different than it was in that thread that you see below (if you wish to take a peek at it):

https://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/topic/303787-3x5-or-5x3-its-not-what-youre-thinking/?do=embed

In this post here, my purpose is to have you perform 10 sets of 1 rep at your heavy weight of 75kg, because you and I both know, that you have absolutely no problem with form performing your 1st rep on each and every set. So we're going to take full advantage of this fact, and capitalise on teaching your nervous system to follow the proper path of lifting..., one rep at a time.

Have your mindset ready before you approach the loaded bar..., place your hands on it and lift it off the rack. Create that fortress that I've talked about more than once on UK-M now, then begin your descent down as one solid unit. Once you've reached the lowest depth you're able to go to with good form, I'd like you to explode up out of the hole, focusing on driving your hips forward as you reach the mid point/parallel to the floor, where the power of your hips ought to really carry you through past the point where your muscles are at the strongest point, yet your leverages are at their weakest, because that's precisely how we humans are built, and just as well or we'd be stuck during lifting anything substantial.

I'll leave it here for now, but please do focus on one single rep at a time, otherwise I'd have to say, reduce the weight back down to something you can handle with good form and continue with your multiple repetitions.

The choice is yours to make.

Cheers.


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## c4nsy (Aug 23, 2012)

Fadi said:


> 1. You have to earn lifting the heavier weight. How is that done?
> 
> 2. You earn the privilege to lift heavier weights by maintaining the same form on the heavier weight that you've applied (are able to maintain) whilst lifting the lighter weights.
> 
> ...


 Thanks yet again @fadi ill take all advice on board as im determined to get this right. If you think id be better off dropping the weight to improve then so be it. Im coming to the end of my programme ive been following as of next week. So maybe i would be better to drop weight but at the same time im enjoying the difficulty of lifting the weight im at and would feel like im going backwards ( even though im not) i obviously dont want to drop weight to much as would feel im starting all over again and its taken me 10 weeks to get this far. I want to start a new programme in the next couple of weeks and still want to incorporate front squats (my new favourite exercise) can you advise me on a programme to follow for these? Im not really wanting to go down the powerlifting route but at the same time im after strength gains but looking to look good too (arnt we all) .

Im still waiting in anticipation for this journal of yours to start, i can only think we will all learn so much from it!!

Again thanks for the help.


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## Fadi (Dec 14, 2010)

c4nsy said:


> Thanks yet again @fadi ill take all advice on board as im determined to get this right. If you think id be better off dropping the weight to improve then so be it. Im coming to the end of my programme ive been following as of next week. So maybe i would be better to drop weight but at the same time im enjoying the difficulty of lifting the weight im at and would feel like im going backwards ( even though im not) i obviously dont want to drop weight to much as would feel im starting all over again and its taken me 10 weeks to get this far. I want to start a new programme in the next couple of weeks and still want to incorporate front squats (my new favourite exercise) can you advise me on a programme to follow for these? Im not really wanting to go down the powerlifting route but at the same time im after strength gains but looking to look good too (arnt we all) .
> 
> Im still waiting in anticipation for this journal of yours to start, i can only think we will all learn so much from it!!
> 
> Again thanks for the help.


 My advice to you would be to never let go of the basic 4 or 5 movements, those that make up the foundation of building muscle in a balanced way, and then to those few compound lifts, you may add few isolation exercises to accentuate a particular muscle, adjusting its proportion and symmetry that allows it to flow beautifully (yet strongly) with the rest of your body.

You can look at @dtlv's detailed approach to periodisation/progression and go with that approach (depending on what level you're at), or you can take an alternative approach (one that is a bit more advance), basing your program on your 1RM. Either way, I believe you'd be best served if and when you let the compounds moves be at the heart of whatever program you decide to take onboard.

Know that constant variation does not allow for proper CNS adaptation when it comes to your fundamental compound movements. Therefore, I'd recommend you remain on few chosen basic exercises for a period of no less than 4 to 6 months (if not a whole year), or until you reach a certain load on the bar that you've head in mind. Chopping and changing exercises constantly does not allow for proper and maximum progress due to a CNS that has no time to adapt to a particular way of lifting.

Olympic weightlifters for years on end, maintain lifting in the same way for a very good reason. A bodybuilder reading here would more than likely object to what I'm sharing with you. If so, they'd need to go back to my first paragraph and re read there, where I've allowed for some supportive/isolation type of exercises, where you could be a bit more flexible in changing things around a bit (not too much, but more so than a compound move, where your focus is more on the lift than on the muscle).

The muscle building here comes as one hell of a positive side effect of perfecting and progressing in that compound lift, and not because that was your main focus in it. You don't enter the world of squatting to build huge legs (though some would), you enter it to master it in every way possible, and as a reward for your effort, you end up with a set of two beasty wheels. That's been my approach to getting bigger muscles when engaging in the compound moves. Not everyone would agree, and I accept and respect that. Do what works for you using the approach you feel most comfortable with.

https://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/topic/296132-a-detailed-guide-to-training-progression/?do=embedhttps://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/topic/303329-fadis-squat-routine-1-3xweek-for-2x-to-25x-bodyweight-squat/?do=embed

Cheers


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

@Fadi, if I'm correct in my recollection, didn't you begin as a gymnast? I have a good friend who is a gymnastics coach who, in her youth, almost made the Olympic team to represent her country. I've had many a chat with her over the years about training, flexibility, muscle hypertrophy and strength development, and her talk about how gymnasts build and maintain such considerable muscle, often using their body weight only, has really helped me understand some things about training in regards to bodybuilding and PL and Olympic lifting.

What she taught me to see was that executing identical technique each time you perform the same movement whether fresh or fatigued (but particularly when fatigued), is actually incredibly difficult - but by practicing it, and getting better at it, and forcing yourself to do it, you continually apply a tremendous stimulus to all the muscles involved in that particular movement to grow, especially the 'weak link' muscles. You are also training your CNS to coordinate and efficiently fire muscle fibers better, and are building connective tissue strength.

I agree with this, and see it as one of the 'hidden factors' in progressive adaptation for bodybuilding - building perfect and consistent form during the hardest of your reps, really builds muscle and is in itself a potent hypertrophic stimulus, and at times is more of an effective focus than an obsession with progressive overload and always looking to add weight all the time. How often, and how normal the instinct is, when fatigued or when just having increased our loads do we shorten our ROM slightly on those tough reps? Depending on the exercise sometimes we might not go to quite to the fullest stretch, and sometimes we might not lock out to peak contraction. Sometimes we might change our levers and coordinate phases of a complex exercise differently - in a deadlift we might straighten our legs before bearing the load and then heave with the back, with a squat we might turn it into less of a dip with the legs and almost a partial good morning bend. With a pullup we might shorten both the stretch at the bottom and how far we raise up at the top.

Most lifters do these things to some degree on most exercises. Ironing out and eliminating these tendencies, so that the most fatigued rep follows exactly the same pattern and the freshest of reps, is a massive benefit to progression and development IMO, and much better facilitates long term adaptation than chopping and changing or 'muscle confusion' type principals, or adding more weight as soon as you can barely crank out your rep targets using vastly inconsistent form.

Progression takes many forms, and progressive mastery of technique should never be overlooked for the more obvious 'just add more weight, bro' - long term solely focusing on adding more weight eventually becomes counterproductive I think.


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## c4nsy (Aug 23, 2012)

Fadi said:


> My advice to you would be to never let go of the basic 4 or 5 movements, those that make up the foundation of building muscle in a balanced way, and then to those few compound lifts, you may add few isolation exercises to accentuate a particular muscle, adjusting its proportion and symmetry that allows it to flow beautifully (yet strongly) with the rest of your body.
> 
> You can look at @dtlv's detailed approach to periodisation/progression and go with that approach (depending on what level you're at), or you can take an alternative approach (one that is a bit more advance), basing your program on your 1RM. Either way, I believe you'd be best served if and when you let the compounds moves be at the heart of whatever program you decide to take onboard.
> 
> ...


 Ok so ive had a read of @dtlv guide and its something im going to do. I am a novice and learning all the time. I couldnt take everything in but will go back to it. I wish i had seen this before o started the programme ive been doing as ive never really understood deloading. The exercises i do now are as follows

Bench 5x5, Ohp 4x8, Dips (weighted) 4x8, lateral raises 4x10, cgbb 2x15

Rack pulls 5x5, pull ups (just started weighted) 5x5, pullover 8x8, bb curl 3x10, bent over lateral raises 4x10

Front squats 3x8, leg exstension (high reps), hamstring exstensions 4x10

These are the exercise id to perform but not sure if there all needed?? Am i right in saying that id only use the programme for the compound moves only? I want to start deadlifting also but my form is seriously terrible and ive left it behind to try and nail form on the other compounds, but its about time i put some effort into getting that form right!! Cns is something i never really looked into as i didnt realise how much of part it has to play, how wrong i was. Ive just been increasing weight every session without much thought going into the process hence the struggle now. Im going to start this programme next week as this is my last week of current programme( even if it is dog) and i want to finish it. Cheers @Fadi once again.


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## Fadi (Dec 14, 2010)

dtlv said:


> @Fadi, if I'm correct in my recollection, didn't you begin as a gymnast? I have a good friend who is a gymnastics coach who, in her youth, almost made the Olympic team to represent her country. I've had many a chat with her over the years about training, flexibility, muscle hypertrophy and strength development, and her talk about how gymnasts build and maintain such considerable muscle, often using their body weight only, has really helped me understand some things about training in regards to bodybuilding and PL and Olympic lifting.
> 
> What she taught me to see was that executing identical technique each time you perform the same movement whether fresh or fatigued (but particularly when fatigued), is actually incredibly difficult - but by practicing it, and getting better at it, and forcing yourself to do it, you continually apply a tremendous stimulus to all the muscles involved in that particular movement to grow, especially the 'weak link' muscles. You are also training your CNS to coordinate and efficiently fire muscle fibers better, and are building connective tissue strength.
> 
> ...


 Simply *GOLD!*

Yes Sir, I did start as a gymnast back in 1972 at the age of 7. It taught me discipline and increased my brain's tolerance to pain, for here lies the deciding factor governing whether you push through when the going gets tough, or simply stop and/or modify what you're doing to ease the pain. Basically this tolerance factor to pain, summarises some of the reasons you've given above; reasons that sees lifters short changing their applied effort during a single lift or a set.

According to Dr Lex Mauger, a professor of sport and exercise science, our pain tolerance isn't necessarily just something we're born with no. Just like our aerobic capacity or lactate threshold, pain tolerance is malleable.

Here's one of my old time favourite gymnasts, the mighty Bulgarian Yordan Yovchev doing what he does best: decreasing the leverage, which effectively increases the forces his muscles need to apply in order to obtain the position we see him in during one of his rings routines.









Cheers, and thank you for inspiring me to write the above Sir.


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## c4nsy (Aug 23, 2012)

Right im back here again as im pretty much torn between Body Building and strength training. My goals are to actually look like i train, ive now been training for over a year and i dont feel as though my body shows this. Im happy with diet but not training! I suggested that id give @dtlv training programme ago but im now not so sure. Im not sure if bodybuilding or powerlifting is the right route for me. Can you do both?? I want big muscles ( dont we all) and to look pleasing on the eye, will i get this from a strength programme? or will i be better off going down the bodybuilding route or will both do the job? can i get aesthetic look from @dtlv routine or will i need to go down the bodybuilding route of higher reps?

Thanks C4nsy


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

c4nsy said:


> Right im back here again as im pretty much torn between Body Building and strength training. My goals are to actually look like i train, ive now been training for over a year and i dont feel as though my body shows this. Im happy with diet but not training! I suggested that id give @dtlv training programme ago but im now not so sure. Im not sure if bodybuilding or powerlifting is the right route for me. Can you do both?? I want big muscles ( dont we all) and to look pleasing on the eye, will i get this from a strength programme? or will i be better off going down the bodybuilding route or will both do the job? can i get aesthetic look from @dtlv routine or will i need to go down the bodybuilding route of higher reps?
> 
> Thanks C4nsy


 I always feel a little awkward when trying to answer the question of which direction an individual should take, especially when they seem uncertain themselves. Really the choice has to be yours and something you own, fully invest in, and fully commit to.

In truth whether your training is bodybuilding focused or strength focused, if you train well and consistently for a prolonged length of time your body will reflect what you do in the gym. Both styles get you bigger and stronger. It is different though and there are two differences to remember between strength athletes and bodybuilders -



A bodybuilder is primarily building muscle, with strength gain as a side effect. A strength athlete is primarily building strength, with bigger muscles a side effect.


A bodybuilder manipulates diet to best show his muscles as a first priority even if this sometimes marginally limits performance (such as when cutting), while a strength athlete manipulates diet only to maximize his lifting performance even if it sometimes limits how well his muscles get shown off (in regards to levels of leanness).


This second point, the difference in diet and how much time you are prepared to spend looking to manipulate your body composition, is one thing to consider when choosing a path.

Generally a strength athlete will therefore look big and powerful, but not chiseled. A bodybuilder will always look more chiseled but might not be quite as strong.

If you really aren't sure which direction to take, maybe consider googling powerbuilding routines - a form of hybrid training that is bodybuilding and strength focused simultaneously.


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## c4nsy (Aug 23, 2012)

dtlv said:


> I always feel a little awkward when trying to answer the question of which direction an individual should take, especially when they seem uncertain themselves. Really the choice has to be yours and something you own, fully invest in, and fully commit to.
> 
> In truth whether your training is bodybuilding focused or strength focused, if you train well and consistently for a prolonged length of time your body will reflect what you do in the gym. Both styles get you bigger and stronger. It is different though and there are two differences to remember between strength athletes and bodybuilders -
> 
> ...


 Thanks for the reply, ive looked into powerbuilding since you suggested it and at the moment its something id like to work at. This is the programme i like the look of but seems like theres way to much volume? Im thinking i could change it around and make it a 4 day instead of 5 day and get rid of some of the exercises?

Day1 power

Bb bench 3x4-6

Weighted pull ups 3x6-8

Dumbell pullovers 2x8-10

Seated dumbell shoulder 3x8-10

Day 2 power

Squats 4x5-6

Stiff legged deadlifts 4x6-8

Lunges 3x10

Day 3 back and shoulders and chest

Bent over barbell rows 4x10

Flat db press 3x8-12

Dips 3xmany as possible

Bb bicep curl 3x-12

Side lat raises 3x12-20

Day 4 Lower body hypertrophy

Front squats 4x10-15

deadlifts 4x10-12

Tricep exercise 4x8-12

It all seems a bit of mess to me, what do you think?

Cheers


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