# Whats possible for a natural BB?



## Floyde (Jun 22, 2006)

I'm probably going down a well trodden path here and one thats well documented on this site..

I look at the boards quite a lot and only occasionally post as I ain't really got a great deal to say 

Everytime I look at pics on here I think.. Is that with gear or without... I have no problem with gear and in all honesty I battle my self over it.. but I have to admit I'm probably not the right kind of person to get into it.. but its normally only after someone poses the question that the picture owner adds their cycle or indeed confirms its with gear.

I'm not totally thick and I can look at the big guys and Pro's on here and not need any confirmation.. but looking at some of the younger guys I wonder if what they achieve could have been achieved without gear..

Like I say using gear isn't something I have a problem with at all.. its all down to how responsible and sensible you are.. as with everything in life... but from motivation point of view its hard looking at how someone has progressed in a year only to realise its on gear and probably not possible without.

There's occassion I think the poster doesn't actually look THAT big but they have reached that stage on gear.. and wonder if that is beyond natuarally capabilities.

Hmm yeah I've forgotten my point :thumb:


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## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

Look at my avvy.

All obtained totally natural..

Impressive eh


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## shorty (Mar 13, 2007)

look at this way... mens health cover models is achievable for a natty... look on the cover of flex mag and nah you need aas to look like that!


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## Harry1436114491 (Oct 8, 2003)

jw007 said:


> Look at my avvy.
> 
> All obtained totally natural..
> 
> Impressive eh


 :whistling: pmsl


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## Ironhorse (Mar 21, 2008)

jw007 said:


> Look at my avvy.
> 
> All obtained totally natural..
> 
> Impressive eh


Actually if thats true thats not bad.


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## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

Ironhorse said:


> Actually if thats true thats not bad.


Cheers mate:thumb:


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## shorty (Mar 13, 2007)

creatine?? by anychance?


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## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

shorty said:


> *creatine?? by anychance*?


No chance mate, what do you think i am? some sort of druggie.

No just hard training, plenty of rest and protein and live a clean wholesome lifestyle.


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## GSleigh (Jan 22, 2008)

Floyde said:


> I'm probably going down a well trodden path here and one thats well documented on this site..
> 
> I look at the boards quite a lot and only occasionally post as I ain't really got a great deal to say
> 
> ...


To be fair its a good question...

I am staying natural and would love to know really what i can get to compared to some of the monsters i see on here... But if they on the muscle juice then how realistic are my goals!


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## shorty (Mar 13, 2007)

GS... JW007 has clearly stated what it takes


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## Floyde (Jun 22, 2006)

Ya see there's a couple of pics in te members pics section and it got me thinking thats all.

Young guys (late teens early 20's) that have got to what I would say just above Mens Health cover model size... on gear.. but I'm not sure if I could really tell if they are on gear or not... and that to me seems weird 

I'm probably wrong.. but I always saw gear as a means to go way above the bench mark, not so much to get to an atainable natural goal... just quicker.

Do you gain more by reaching your maximum size natural and then thinking about gear?


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## TH0R (Aug 15, 2007)

Great thread floyde:thumb:, exactly my thoughts, I have no problem with ppl taking aas but just can't put that stuff in me, all i want to know is the best/different methods of training for a "clean" athlete, no offence meant.


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## Floyde (Jun 22, 2006)

Well, never say never... I don't know what I'll think in another years time...

I was reading an article on Rob Hope... the guy must be bursting with super genes.


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## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

Obviously us naturals have a bigger moutain to climb as it were, but if you concentate on your diet, Train hard, its possible to fulfill your goals.

You just have to be consistant.

Ive been at this naturally for 17 years now, and let me tell you its certainly no picnic


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2008)

jw007 said:


> Obviously us naturals have a bigger moutain to climb as it were, but if you concentate on your diet, Train hard, its possible to fulfill your goals.
> 
> You just have to be consistant.
> 
> Ive been at this naturally for 17 years now, and let me tell you its certainly no picnic


 FVCKING PMSL!

I am also as natural as mid winter snow, that said i once drank a protein shake:whistling:


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## Floyde (Jun 22, 2006)

jw007 said:


> Obviously us naturals have a bigger moutain to climb as it were, but if you concentate on your diet, Train hard, its possible to fulfill your goals.
> 
> You just have to be consistant.
> 
> Ive been at this naturally for 17 years now, and let me tell you its certainly no picnic


I haven't read enough your posts to tell if ya just being funny  :confused1:


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## Floyde (Jun 22, 2006)

arr ok.. I get it... we're taking the **** 

Was just interested guys.


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## ba baracuss (Apr 26, 2004)

Rob Hope


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

JW the only way you would natty is to have a blood transfusion  it is a decent question and on not many can answer for themselves because unless you stay natural you cannot say what could of been achieved....but look at guys like Rob Hope, Mezza, Gen Danbury and Fivos all good physiques and all have competed in non natural shows and beaten non-natural guys.....so really you don't need drugs to possess a good body but then it is what your vision of a good body is and how hard you will work for it..


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## shorty (Mar 13, 2007)

I dont think Rob hope is natural either...


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## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

Con said:


> FVCKING PMSL!
> 
> *I am also as natural* as mid winter snow, that said i once drank a protein shake:whistling:


You too Con??? I am suprised, no offence but from your bloated face and acne ridden back i could of sworn you were roided up to the eyeballs:lol:

But fair play, you dont look half bad physique wise for a natural.

How do you resist the temptation not to "juice" when you have to wrestle and fight for every ounce of muscle, then these fly by nite wannabees come into the gym, juiced up to fcuk and grow 20" guns in just a few months???

I know i find it hard, but i have my morals improud to say, and touch wood they have never let me down.


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## Floyde (Jun 22, 2006)

shorty said:


> I dont think Rob hope is natural either...


Really.. he seems quite an ambassador for the natty's.


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## TH0R (Aug 15, 2007)

Don't know about you Floyde but i'm beginning to wonder how many don't juice on the forum:wacko:

A poll:confused1:


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## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

Pscarb said:


> *JW the only way you would natty is to have a* *blood transfusion*  it is a decent question and on not many can answer for themselves because unless you stay natural you cannot say what could of been achieved....but look at guys like Rob Hope, Mezza, Gen Danbury and Fivos all good physiques and all have competed in non natural shows and beaten non-natural guys.....so really you don't need drugs to possess a good body but then it is what your vision of a good body is and how hard you will work for it..


I can hand on heart swear that i have not had one PED (today)

ooops there goes another oxy:thumbup1:


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## Floyde (Jun 22, 2006)

tel3563 said:


> Don't know about you Floyde but i'm beginning to wonder how many don't juice on the forum:wacko:
> 
> A poll:confused1:


To be honest I'm not fussed about the numbers.. just the comparrison between hard working natural and amatuar juicer.

I personally don't want to go down the gear path.. at the moment.. apat from anything my general fitness is no where near good enough.. but its a choice like loads of others in life that is probably less dangerous than deciding to get smashed at the weekend or smoke 20 a day.

I just like the idea that maybe natty's can hold their own against amatuar juicers.. I just don't see much evidence of it lol :thumb:


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2008)

tel3563 said:


> Don't know about you Floyde but i'm beginning to wonder how many don't juice on the forum:wacko:
> 
> A poll:confused1:


 Unless we are talking about me 90% of the guys who dont look good take gear and 99% of the guys who do look good take gear:thumbup1:

JW007 I know looks can be decieving, but i do infact just have naturally a moon face and acne well i do like to eat chocolate


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## Kezz (Sep 3, 2007)

I dont think naturals work any harder to be honest but they generally dont get as big


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

shorty said:


> I dont think Rob hope is natural either...


I know Rob and i and many others can vouch for him being a Natty....


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## dan-mel (Jun 18, 2008)

There was a link con posted to a thing what told you how big you can possibly get natural if you have good genes, it was prittey cool. I'll try to find it.


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## xzx (Jun 6, 2008)

GSleigh said:


> To be fair its a good question...
> 
> I am staying natural and would love to know really what i can get to compared to some of the monsters i see on here... But if they on the muscle juice then how realistic are my goals!


I started training in my late teens and am now well into my 40's

From 11 stone, in 3 years I was up to 15 stone, lean. My training consisted of compound excersises, total bodyparts 3 days a week (Mon Wed Fri) My diet revolved around meat (any) fish, eggs, cheese, potatoes, rice and starchy veg and cramming as much this into my body as I could every day. Never counted calories or macro nutrients but i'd say about 5000-6000 cal per day

Over the months and years, many collegues at the gym just stopped growing. The bottom line is they wernt eating enough.

Im not saying my diet was spot on. I know it certainly wasnt, but you can put your body in Anabolic mode by diet alone. The gear is the icing on the cake I suppose and a quick way to overstep the natural process (by the way I have only 1 cycle under my belt from THIS year).

What might be interesting though is to find out how long some of the guys trained before turning to Steroids. Back then there was no interent so no information other than the good ol boys at the gym


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## Floyde (Jun 22, 2006)

Kezz said:


> I dont think naturals work any harder to be honest but they generally dont get as big


Unless you have super genes I kinda got the impression it was impossible to gain like a gear user does?


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## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

Floyde said:


> To be honest I'm not fussed about the numbers.. just the comparrison between hard working natural and amatuar juicer.
> 
> I personally don't want to go down the gear path.. at the moment.. apat from anything my general fitness is no where near good enough.. but its a choice like loads of others in life that is probably less dangerous than deciding to get smashed at the weekend or smoke 20 a day.
> 
> I just like the idea that maybe natty's can hold their own against amatuar juicers.. I just don't see much evidence of it lol :thumb:


Oh for sure a natty can definately hold their own against a juicer anyday of the week, it just takes a lot of dedication and sacrifice.

I have given up beer and women and basically anything fun in the pursuit of that extra "inch".

I would say i can hold my own with any of the juiced up loser roid bods on this forum.

I have a saying from a hero of mine you will often find me quoting to inspire people....

*ERIC Cartman*

Follow your dreams. You can achieve your goals; I'm living proof. Beefcake. *Beefcake!! *


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## shorty (Mar 13, 2007)

Pscarb said:


> I know Rob and i and many others can vouch for him being a Natty....


I'll take your word for it Paul... so there's an example of how big you can get natural as Rob has a great physique!


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## Floyde (Jun 22, 2006)

xzx said:


> What might be interesting though is to find out how long some of the guys trained before turning to Steroids. Back then there was no interent so no information other than the good ol boys at the gym


That's also part of my thinking... there's loads of guys posting pictures and cycles that have literally just, some haven't, finished naturally growing... and their on gear... wouldn't they get bigger by building naturally to a maximum first?


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## Floyde (Jun 22, 2006)

jw007 said:


> Oh for sure a natty can definately hold their own against a juicer anyday of the week, it just takes a lot of dedication and sacrifice.
> 
> I have given up beer and women and basically anything fun in the pursuit of that extra "inch".
> 
> ...


Dude.. seriously... I get it! :thumb:


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## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

Con said:


> Unless we are talking about me 90% of the guys who dont look good take gear and 99% of the guys who do look good take gear:thumbup1:
> 
> *JW007 I know looks can be decieving, but i do infact just have* naturally a moon face and acne well i do like to eat chocolate


You have my sincere apologies Con, ive no wish to speak ill of the afflicted, You try your best with what you have been given so my hats off to you.

Keep up the good work:thumbup1:

Bear this saying in mind when training, i like to use it to inspire all around me when im blasting my guns in the Gym

"*one more rep, cause i dont wanna be no pencil neck"*

repeat 3 times:thumbup1:

god bless


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## Floyde (Jun 22, 2006)

shorty said:


> I'll take your word for it Paul... so there's an example of how big you can get natural as Rob has a great physique!


Yes.. I mentioned Rob under the awesomely amazing gene category.. like sub 10 second sprinters.. they are just different.. than any natty or juicer.


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## shorty (Mar 13, 2007)

Pscarb forgot to ask has rob ever taken steriods at some point??

just interested to know.


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## guinness (Jul 14, 2008)

This is a good thread, when I was starting out training just over 20 years ago I didnt know anyone involved in bodybuilding but the mags like flex and muscular development never said anything about gear. They just showed these huge guys and their training routines. Clearly I knew something was amiss but I had no idea about what I was or was not capable of achieving.

They I joined a hardcore gym and was the smallest guy there by a good 40lbs. On my second visit there I stepped on a needle in the changing rooms and only when I freaked out at the owner did I get my first straight talk on what these guys were taking, how and when. As it happened it inspired me to stay there and to this day remains by far the best gym I have trained in. I took a decision not to use gear, ever, but I did with my eyes open and with a full understanding of what I could achieve natty.

I think understanding this is important for newbies to allow them to be realistic with themselves and therefore not get downbeat when it seems that they just can't grow.

My other big takeaway from that gym was the dedication to diet that the big guys showed. It was unbelievable to me at that time and it was only when I started to read into it and implement that I started to get good gains. I, like everyone else I knew, literally had no idea how to eat.

In my opinion many newbies dont realise the extent of the committment needed to grow. I respect those that take gear and to maximise gains lay off the drink, understand their diet and work their balls off in the gym.

Lastly I will say that the human body is an incredible thing and that I reckon most people can take their development much, much further than they think by staying natural. Just takes buckets of patience and dedication.


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## geeby112 (Mar 15, 2008)

i just changed my diet and my gains were brilliant, no drugs, good food, rest and training is all you need :thumbup1:


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## the_muss (May 16, 2008)

I'm sure this has been done to death but it is an interesting one.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" /><o></o>

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I am natural and have trained consistently for around 8 years with reasonable form and diet. I am still making slow progress but it has been very slow over the last few years.<o></o>

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I hear that a lot of the natural competitors have or do use gear so to use them as a bench mark may not be right. But a lot of people who do use gear do not realise what their natural limit could have been as they started taking it too early.<o></o>

<o></o>

I think that only real way you'll know is if you do it yourself. Its really a personal choice and nobody will give you any extra credit or a pat on the back for being a natty, in fact nobody will know (except you may be smaller). The training and diet are the same as that for assisted users so to say its harder to be natural competitor is b0llocks, it is however harder to achieve a certain size but not necessary impossible.<o></o>

<o></o>

I am by no means a good natural bodybuilder, to be honest i don't know how i'd fair in a comp. <o></o>

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But for example my stats are: 5'7, around 195lbs, probably about 12% bf at the moment. I have 18.5 inch arms, 46-47 inch chest and around 30 inch waist.<o></o>

<o></o>

I know i can achieve more naturally and I will give a natural competition a go next year. After that I may give up my natural status! :whistling:


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## Floyde (Jun 22, 2006)

Cheers for all the helpful replies.

Guinness. I know what you mean... the thing is these days the TV programmes either tell everyone what a bad thing steriods are or they do a big up programme for strong people and show Body Builders trianing, sleeping and eating protien but leave out probably the second biggest decision a Pro BB makes, whether to take gear or not. So unless directly asked, they avoid admitting/confirming.

Most people watch and say "Yeah but he must be on gear!"... like its a magic potion..

I could have David Beckhams feet transplanted on to my legs.. but I'd still hoof the ball like the village twit.


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## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

the_muss ^^^^^^ Big arms for a natty mate


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## BLUE(UK) (Jan 9, 2008)

It depends upon what you call 'natural'.Just because someone competes in natural shows doesn't mean they indeed ARE natural....some just haven't been caught yet but at the same time there are plenty who compete who're indeed 'natural'.

Here is some no bull**** added stuff about me.

I am 31 and have trained since i was 14 but really got into it when i was 18 by doing compounds etc.

I have never taken anything except 100mg of Thyroxine per day due to a goitre and thyroid problems.

I have weighed approx [email protected] 6'2 tall with abs since i started working the doors when i was 20.

Few stats......

Chest.....50''(mostly lats)

Waist...28''(now 32-34 but going down)

Arms.....17.5''

Thighs...27-28''

Calves....No comment!! :whistling: (bloody stubborn!!)

I also did Muay Thai doing the sparring with a guy who held a UK title so would say i did ok.

Aged 25 i tore my lower back muscles and spent 3yrs 'getting it right'.

During that time i also had a motorbike accident(broken bones).

During this time some of the lifts i have done is as followed.....

Squats ass too grass......200kgx3 reps

Squats parallel..............300kgx5 reps

Leg press.....................Lost count of the number of 20kg plates.

Bench press..................150kgx3 reps(i am weak at this)

clean+press...................110kgx4 reps(could use some coaching!!)

Seated press.................100kgx3 reps9aiming for 120kg by new year)

Deadlift.......................220kgx2 reps

Lying Tricep ext............75kgx5 reps

Barbell curl....................100kgx3 reps(fcukin heavy).

I aint the strongest but i do well.I dont take anything such as caffeine etc.

In fairness i have been accused of taking alsorts and most people who've trained in the same gyms dont believe i dont use anything.I do believe it all starts in the mind which you either have or you dont when it comes to training.Your body will be determined by genetics and fuel intake.

Hope that helps with what is achievable and not just by the elite.


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

shorty said:


> Pscarb forgot to ask has rob ever taken steriods at some point??
> 
> just interested to know.


Natural means natural not did some gear a few yrs ago and decided to not do it anymore...

Rob and many other who have great physiques like Mezza and Fivos are natural for life


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## MaKaVeLi (Aug 12, 2008)

natty here!


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## Golden Man (Sep 10, 2005)

I am natural and proud of what I have produced.

Two second places but not the biggest person .....dont bother me

Dont set yourself limits try your best.

dealift in my prime 250kg

bench 154kg

squat 238kg

dumbell curls with 37.5kg

barbell curls 75kg

So not too week either and when not competing waist no above 31 at 5ft9 . I hate the fact that there is a stigma regards naturals supposedly small etc yet mezza and hob eg can hold their own.Ps nabba 2009 ED natural and all could surprise a few people,size or no size


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## donggle (Aug 28, 2007)

jw007 said:


> No chance mate, what do you think i am? some sort of druggie.
> 
> No just hard training, plenty of rest and protein and live a clean wholesome lifestyle.


You obviously supplement with man fat though.


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## TH0R (Aug 15, 2007)

geeby112 said:


> i just changed my diet and my gains were brilliant, no drugs, good food, rest and training is all you need :thumbup1:


What did you change it to? very inspirational


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## shorty (Mar 13, 2007)

Pscarb said:


> Natural means natural not did some gear a few yrs ago and decided to not do it anymore...
> 
> Rob and many other who have great physiques like Mezza and Fivos are natural for life


thanks Paul :thumbup1:


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2008)

tel3563 said:


> What did you change it to? very inspirational


 :laugh:Well if being under 200lb with abbs is insperational to you fair play.

What a lot of you "naturals" dont realise is just how much bigger and more impressive drugs can make you.

Yes the fellow has a nice little phsique it will look good on the beach BUT in the freak sport of bodybuilding that wouldnt even show up on the radar as being a bb.

IMO i am only slowly getting to the size where i could be considered a bb


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## BLUE(UK) (Jan 9, 2008)

Con said:


> What a lot of you "naturals" dont realise is just how much bigger and more impressive drugs can make you.


I agree.

Must also add that i am plenty over 200lb and in half decent shape.


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## Guest (Sep 5, 2008)

BLUE(UK) said:


> I agree.
> 
> Must also add that i am plenty over 200lb and in half decent shape.


 Fair dues mate.

I certaintly think many natural bb's look great personally i got to 200lb at 5ft8 with abbs and was able to deadlift 280kg before i even knew fully what gear was. But in order to get the "freak" look drugs are needed. I only get comments that make me think i am starting to look out of the ordinary now when i am around 220-30lb in reasonable shape(people stopping me on the street asking to feel my arms or making general comments about being jacked or what not) now when i was 200lb people would ask if i worked out every day that is about it:rolleyes:

That said i bet you are plenty over 200lb but i bet you arent a short ass such as my self


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## Britbb (Sep 7, 2007)

tel3563 said:


> Don't know about you Floyde but i'm beginning to wonder how many don't juice on the forum:wacko:
> 
> A poll:confused1:


When i was natural i had 18.5 inch arms, 35 inch waist (with abs), 50 inch chest, 25 inch quads, 18 inch neck.

This was after 3.5 years of training.

If youd ask 'what level did you get upto naturally', i bet some of the guys with the best physiques on the board got to a MUCH HIGHER LEVEL THAN SOME OF THE CURRENT NATURAL BOYS WHO SLAM AAS USERS (obviously excluding rob hope, mezza, fivos etc).

Infact i rekon when i was natural (upto 3.5 years of training that i did naturally) i achieved a better physique than 98% of the 'naturals' on the board here.

Have you ever thought that in 3 years, those who are currently on here and are natural, WONT BE NATURAL ANYMORE? This is what happens!

Most people train naturally for a while and then use gear...the fact is that there are guys on here who use gear but reached a great level naturally before they used gear...so no one should ever use the STUPID comment 'but i gained this naturally'.

I can garuntee, after looking at some peoples pictures that i was frikkin miles bigger as a natural bodybuilder before i ever touched anything.

You never ever see any proper natural competitor keep whinging 'but im natural, but its real natural muscle'...you NEVER SEE FIVOS, MEZZA, ROB HOPE doing this!!!

THIS IS BECAUSE THESE GUYS DONT NEED TO DO IT! THEY ARE NATURAL THROUGH THEIR CHOICE, THEY COMPETE IN NATURAL FEDS AND NON NATURAL FEDS AND STILL BEAT SOME GUYS WHO DECIDE TO USE AAS...BUT THEIR PHYSIQUES DO THE TALKING.

So why dont these guys start saying 'Ah but the reason i dont look like ronnie coleman did, is because he takes steroids and i dont'... BECAUSE THEY ARENT DELUDED INTO THINKING THIS! BECAUSE THEY ACTUALLY KNOW ABOUT BODYBUILDING!!! HENCE THEY ARE RESPECTED FOR THEIR PHYSIQUES AND THEIR KNOWLEDGE.

IT TAKES A REAL FUKING IDIOT TO ACTUALLY BELIEVE THAT 'THE REASON THEY WONT LOOK LIKE RONNIE COLEMAN IN 1999 IS 'ONLY' BECAUSE THEY ARENT TAKING STEROIDS.

This is probably THE MOST stupid and ignorant newbie error that can be made in bodybuilding.

'IF I TAKE STEROIDS WILL I LOOK LIKE RONNIE COLEMAN DID IN 1999 AFTER A YEAR OF TRAINING?'

Ronnie wouldve been the natural champ, ronnie was the natural champ infact (drug tested event where he turned pro!) the team universe or something (cant remember exactly) but its a tested show.

So next time someone looks at ronnie coleman, they should look at him and say 'best natural bodybuilder and best bodybuilder ever' FULLSTOP!

And not be so pathetically ignorant to think 'HMMM IF I USE GEAR FOR A LITTLE WHILE I WOULD BE BETTER THAN HIM'.

Millions and millions of people use gear, yet none of them look as good as ronnie did at his peak, none fo them can run like usain bolt, none of them can swim like phelps, none of them can think like einstein, none of them can write like shakespeare...so WHY NOT?

If its all down to 'only steroids'...why are the millions and millions of people on steroids in gyms all over the world NOT looking liek ronnie coleman? :confused1:

:cursing:  :whistling: :confused1:


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## Golden Man (Sep 10, 2005)

Britt bb I agree too.No offence con yeah your big and some people on gear are big but being big and gear aint the key,I know certain people at a certain gym who have taken more substances than a few people on this board combined and what he can show for it is a huge head and bad skin and few are just plain fat or big arm chest tiny leg patrol.I compete and Im natural so what and some people take substances so what.Ive trained with people on gear who look a state,weak and trained with naturals.Here in lies a problem with this sport ego's,excuses and attitudes ROB HOPE looks better than 90% of people on this board fivos+mezza have beaten people in different feds.Too many people seem to think that gear etc is the key and an excuse.Big aint always best if it looks crap,people like dean garrett, rob feesey have competed outside of natural feds and beat people.Natural aint an excuse or a reason to automatically think you will be limited and gear aint the answer to success and big aint always best (unless its the olympia).Paul george mezza look at their condition and the untrained eye wouldnt know that mezza is on gear.Ps if I do a nabba show and I get beat Id put it down to not being at my best.No excuses and no talk of he's on gear blah blah


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## geeby112 (Mar 15, 2008)

Its true there are alot of people taking gear with the dreams in their heads they will look like a pro:confused1: its the articles you read, i saw arnolds supposidly cycle and i think people would try it to look like arnold?

thanks con, your looking huge in your avatar, alot of hard work gone in there!you look like a bodybuilder, i want to look like an athlete, true on a stage i would be tiny but if i was to compete then i would change ALOT of things, i like the athletic look:thumbup1:


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

excellent post Adam...


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## YetiMan1436114545 (Dec 7, 2007)

jw007 said:


> Look at my avvy.
> 
> All obtained totally natural..
> 
> Impressive eh


Polish Cell Tech? :thumb:


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## geeby112 (Mar 15, 2008)

Does anyone know that bodybuilder "Michael Lockett" it states he's also a natural and is huge! if this he's telling the truth then he has very good genetics, he sets a good example what good diet and training does to a natural body:thumbup1:










the above 2 pics is a difference of 1 year and 25Lbs more!


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

the only time i get annoyed with naturals is when they feel the need to tell everyone they are natural....why do that? do they feel that this justifies there lack of knowledge?

i used to use 3 times more gear than i use now and i was alot smaller and not as conditioned as i am now...the only thing that changed was the knowledge i have....there used to be a member on here who wanted to get big quick so he used stupid amounts of gear and slin yet he looked no bigger than a newbie and the reason for that was that his knowledge of his body was poor......this happens to many many guys up and down the UK...


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

the pic on the right i would believe he was natural but the pic on the left he in my opinion is not the difference in size is more than 25lbs and he is full to bursting Natty's do not get this fullness....


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## Tall (Aug 14, 2007)

Pscarb said:


> the pic on the right i would believe he was natural but the pic on the left he in my opinion is not the difference in size is more than 25lbs and he is full to bursting Natty's do not get this fullness....


IMHO he looks exactly the same size, but the lights and tan/sheen are doing a very good job of creating that illusion of size.


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

if you look at his shoulders they are wider and not as sloped, his chest is bigger and the tear drop on his leg is bigger


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## Tall (Aug 14, 2007)

Pscarb said:


> if you look at his shoulders they are wider and not as sloped, his chest is bigger and the tear drop on his leg is bigger


Sorry - I was more commenting on how he doesn't look 25lbs bigger :cool2:


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## geeby112 (Mar 15, 2008)

i was thinking the same Pscarb, i think gaining nearly 2 stone of LEAN muscle in one year and still looking that good well to me is unheard off

it seems alot of people are fuming over this guy as he states he is natural and alot doubt him, he also passed 3 drug tests in a year:confused1:


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## donggle (Aug 28, 2007)

that must be more than one year, if it is that's very impressive. shoulder and arms have put on loads, but get onto the difference in them calves.


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## BigDom86 (Jul 27, 2008)

whyh dont you guys give him a proper answer instead of making jokes? you can get a long way natural it just takes more time and effort


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

BigDom86 said:


> whyh dont you guys give him a proper answer instead of making jokes? you can get a long way natural it just takes more time and effort


who you replying to Dom?

the question i would ask of this guy is what he changed to suddenly put on 25lbs in one year....did he find a tub of Cell-Tech :thumb:


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## BigDom86 (Jul 27, 2008)

sorry i replied on page 1 lol didnt see there was 5 pages,. that was back when there was all the stupid jokes.

anyway i think the bases have been covered with people like rob hope mezza etc. i have good friends who are natural and are very big aswell, i think it just takes time, it is MUCH slower to gain but you can get to a decent enough size without gear.

btw i think michael lockett is natural not that it matters anyway


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## gav (Aug 28, 2008)

Britbb said:


> So next time someone looks at ronnie coleman, they should look at him and say 'best natural bodybuilder and best bodybuilder ever' FULLSTOP!
> 
> :cursing:  :whistling: :confused1:


Your forgetting Arnie  other than that an excellent reply lol


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## Golden Man (Sep 10, 2005)

"NATURAL" is what type of shows some people compete in, a bodybuilder/gym goer with knowledge is what most are doesnt matter substance use or not. Paul s RAISED A POINT, KNOWLEDGE; too many people feel substances eg slin gh etc guarantee success or growth or say "i would need roids to get to that size" (said when taking to me and when I ask what they eat and I say ohhh your consuming fat and eating like your a 12year old man not 35year old boy" NO KNOWLEDGE).That aint the case..may work short period may not work at all.AS big dom86 said the answer is over time but you have to ask what are your goals.Even on gear everybody on here couldnt look like colman so everyones goals should be the best they can be and gh etc or "natural" it all takes time. For some people that time is quicker than others. From merrifield and fivos to colman and cutler it all took them time to achieve what they have achieved.If you dont give yourself time you may either be lucky get your reults quick then digress or get no results at all.


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

gav said:


> Your forgetting Arnie  other than that an excellent reply lol


sorry when did Arnie compete and win a natural show? what test did he have done?

Arnie is not the best bodybuilder of all time when you talk about physique yes he has done the most for bodybuilding by bring it more mainstream but as for physique not a chance...


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## Floyde (Jun 22, 2006)

Thanks for all the replies and thoughts..

My intial question purely came about because I was looking in the Members pics and a young guy posted up some pics.. before/afters.. Skinny then muscled.

Regardless of how long they had been training, being so young the body was/is still growing...

Loking at the bigger after shots I thought or hoped it was attainable naturally but then they posted their cycle and this threw me a bit.

Hye, up to him what he does and I think he looks great... just wasn't sure of the need to take gear to get there.

Cheers all!


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## BigDom86 (Jul 27, 2008)

yes far too many people take gear when they dont need it in my opinion. i cant see how you would need to go on gear with under 5+ years excellent training and excellent diet and rest protocol, unless you want to compete that is


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## gav (Aug 28, 2008)

Sorry i didnt mean he was natural at all, in terms of phsique i think he looked better than coleman, just my opinion wasnt trying to start a war


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## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

BigDom86 said:


> yes far too many people take gear when they dont need it in my opinion. i cant see how you would need to go on gear with under 5+ years excellent training and excellent diet and rest protocol, unless you want to compete that is


TBH, because some people take their diet and training very very seriously, they automatically think that everyone else has to.

Now if you live and breathe training etc thats fair enough, but some poeple just want to eat pretty normally, workout and look good.

Now some of these people maybe want faster results, and probably could get their naturally but dont have your dedication or interest.

So they take AAS to get their quicker and easier, and why not???

I have many recreational training friends who will never compete, just want to look good on the beach or in a niteclub.

So they use a bit of gear.

I get a bit annoyed at peopele whpo post stuff like "get your diet spot on" "live breathe and sleep bodybuilding" "youve not reached natural potnetial"

Blah blah blah, so what, they have just as much right to want to look good as anyone else.

Now i have competed BB abd PL but im as guilty as the next recreational trainer that will take AAS just to look good to go on holiday.

Its personal choice IMO and people should not be judged for it


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## Guest (Sep 5, 2008)

i think the fact is a small minority of natural trainers attempt to claim some kind of moral highground because they dont use gear

but in my opinion we are only here once and if being big is what you want why not just do it

i would wager that most naturals are just jealous because they are too scared to inject or have other doubts...

i just dont see the point in writing something like '180 lbs 100% natural' as if it is something to shout about, who cares if you're natural, if you used gear would you necessarily reach the dizzying heights of bodybuilding, no in most cases certainly not

i dont care if someone is natural or not because it doesnt matter.


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## Tall (Aug 14, 2007)

jw007 said:


> TBH, because some people take their diet and training very very seriously, they automatically think that everyone else has to.
> 
> Now if you live and breathe training etc thats fair enough, but some poeple just want to eat pretty normally, workout and look good.
> 
> ...


LMAO. Was that little outburst directed at a little someone in a little bit of a b1tchy way :thumb:


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## Gumball (May 9, 2006)

Take a look at these websites guys!

http://www.ultimate-natural.com/

http://www.pronaturalmuscle.com/

http://www.jimcordova.com/


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## BigDom86 (Jul 27, 2008)

yes we are only here once and i want that time to be as long as it can be


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## shorty (Mar 13, 2007)

BigDom86 said:


> yes we are only here once and i want that time to be as long as it can be


what does that mean?


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

jw007 said:


> I get a bit annoyed at peopele whpo post stuff like "get your diet spot on"


Sorry for annoying you JW 



BigDom86 said:


> yes we are only here once and i want that time to be as long as it can be


why would your time be shorter if you took gear? do you not drink or drive fast?



gav said:


> Sorry i didnt mean he was natural at all, in terms of phsique i think he looked better than coleman, just my opinion wasnt trying to start a war


why was my reply considered a war? i am as entitled to my opinion as much as anyone.....


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## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

Thats ok

wil be posting diet in next day or so (along with shic) for your critique in any case lol


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## PeterTheEater (May 20, 2004)

shorty said:


> what does that mean?


i think he typed that in the wrong window on his compOOter, mate...

he wanted the one titled

http://www.oprahwinfrey.com


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## BigDom86 (Jul 27, 2008)

^^indeed


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## Inggasson (Jul 13, 2008)

I have a lot of respect for people who take their body to the limit, but I concede to having more respect for naturals than non-naturals. I train naturally myself, and I reckon I look better than some users in my gym... it's all about what makes you feel better abut yourself. If you need/want that extra helping hand, then take it. I won't, but a lot of good people do.


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## Guest (Sep 5, 2008)

ingasson thats a very balanced post mate 

but i am not of the same mind i dont have more respect for naturals because they do not work any harder than gear users. for example does andrew merrifield work harder than daz ball? the answer is no.

by the way thats not knocking andrew merrifield he is phenomenal and if i could look half as good as him with or without gear i would be very happy.

just cos someone uses gear does not make them lazy, and more often than not you need to work harder when on gear and concentrate more.


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## Floyde (Jun 22, 2006)

jw007 said:


> TBH, because some people take their diet and training very very seriously, they automatically think that everyone else has to.
> 
> Now if you live and breathe training etc thats fair enough, but some poeple just want to eat pretty normally, workout and look good.
> 
> ...


Fair enough.. but I'm not judging anyone.. I'm drawing my own conclusions from what I see and asking what the craic is.


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## PeterTheEater (May 20, 2004)

im pretty wary of letting one thing take over my life... and i can see the whole roid/gym thing has the potential to do just that...

i was obsessed enough last time around without the roids

its all about balance...


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## Inggasson (Jul 13, 2008)

Sometimes I question what qualifies at natural, to be honest. I take glutamine, NOX, protein shakes, multi-vits & minerals, zinc, glucosamine & omega 3 and cod liver oil. The amount we take as supplementation can;t be found in a "natural2 diet whereby all your nutrition would come from whole foods... so is it "natural"? I dunno. I do wonder though.

I'm interested in seeing how far I can take myself. At the moment, I'm doing everything I can to cut bodyfat and stay at around the same weight as I like what I've achieved. Some people have achieved more, and I applaud them, whether users or not.


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## Floyde (Jun 22, 2006)

jw007 said:


> I get a bit annoyed at peopele whpo post stuff like "get your diet spot on" "live breathe and sleep bodybuilding" "youve not reached natural potnetial"
> 
> Blah blah blah, so what, they have just as much right to want to look good as anyone else.
> 
> Now i have competed BB abd PL but im as guilty as the next recreational trainer that will take AAS just to look good to go on holiday.


 Do you not think comments about diet and BB routine is just as much about health as it is about gains?

The people that pump themselves full of gear, ignore the diet or pay little attention to it, don't sleep enough or train right start to think they aren't doing enough gear so, do some more.. and more.. then get ill and before you know it steriods get the bad rap again because they did it...

Just my opinion, though. :thumb:


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## TH0R (Aug 15, 2007)

Con said:


> :laugh:Well if being under 200lb with abbs is insperational to you fair play.
> 
> What a lot of you "naturals" dont realise is just how much bigger and more impressive drugs can make you.


IMHO that sounds a little like a smack head saying "what you normal stable ppl don't realise is how much smack makes you so much happier"

No? :tongue:

ps Id love to be under 200 lbs :lol:


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## Guest (Sep 5, 2008)

we have had the discussion about what constitutes a natural trainer not so long ago, i.e. what if you use creatine

so ive said it before and ill say it again....

if you can buy it in holland and barret, you're natural...... if you have to go see the dodgy big geezers in the local hardcore gym... you are probably not natural

i hate hearing posts like 'i dont want to use creatine as its juicing' dont kid yourselves

not aimed at anyone by the way


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## Guest (Sep 5, 2008)

What is it with all this natty's work harder, more respect for natty's, I'm a natty look at me, I deserve more credit than him coz he's a sted head:confused1: who gives a shinalight.

Not everyone is blessed with freaky ace genetics, if you want to get super big and push YOURSELF to the limits with YOUR body AND your happy with takin steroids then go for it fill ya boots, what has it got to do with anyone else.

If you don't then simple DON'T but why bleat on and shout from the rooftops I'm a natty look at me, does it make you a better person, does it make you work harder in the gym? If you think it does then fab, If it makes you feel good to train naturally then go for it, but to get on peoples backs who do take steroids then personally it's wrong coz it's none of your business IMO what people do with their OWN body.

I'm not sayin the likes of Merrifield and Hope don't look awesome coz they do but it was there choice the way they trod their path not anyone else's.

Each to their own, just get on with it, and lift those god damm weights :thumb:

Excuse the rant I need carbs 

Lin x


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## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

Floyde said:


> Do you not think comments about diet and BB routine is just as much about health as it is about gains?
> 
> *The people that pump themselves full of gear, ignore the diet or pay little attention to it, don't sleep enough or train right start to think they aren't doing enough gear so, do some more.. and more.. then get ill and before you know it steriods get the bad rap again because they did it...*
> 
> Just my opinion, though. :thumb:


But they are the sort of people who will do it anyway and not come on the boards looking for advice.

And i know a load of lads like that, and none of them have got ill to date TBH.

How many people you know personally that have been or are lying in hospital due to ass.

Now how many people do you knoew who have visited hospital over alcohol or rec drug isues.

Im not saying dont look after all the facets of bodybuilding, but it does not have to be your life and you dont have to shovel 20 meals of oats and bland chicken down you neck everyday.

Especailly if your not competing, and even then i dont think its neccessary unless thats how you make your living etc


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## TH0R (Aug 15, 2007)

Britbb said:


> When i was natural i had 18.5 inch arms, 35 inch waist (with abs), 50 inch chest, 25 inch quads, 18 inch neck.
> 
> This was after 3.5 years of training.
> 
> ...


 :confused1: :confused1::confused1:Why have you quoted me on this? It was a question i was interested in knowing, do you not agree that recovery time/volume etc are much better on aas so advice (of which I need plenty, although I'm no newbie) coming from an aas user to a natty is somewhat misguided, I don't for one minute think all aas users are "stupid", Some of my best mates use, but what i do know is that there are many who are "stupid" including some of my mates,but normally chav d-cks who in no time at all are strutting round the gym thinking they are the dogs, grunting and groaning like there training to be the next Mr Olympia when really all they wanna do is look in the mirror and work on some sh*thole door.

I will reiterate, I don't know enough about aas and I have no problem with anyone who takes them, I doubt if I ever take them but who knows, I only really know what I read in the paper (bitch tits and heart attacks) and will endeavour to learn more, maybe one day i'll want to look freaky big, so you can now come down off the horse:thumb:


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## PeterTheEater (May 20, 2004)

someone needs to switch to decaf


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## BigDom86 (Jul 27, 2008)

so you dont need a good diet when on gear then? i always see aas users preach this but i guess i was wrong, looks like gear does make you grow muscle whether you eat good or not and train good or not then?


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## TH0R (Aug 15, 2007)

PeterTheEater said:


> i think he typed that in the wrong window on his compOOter, mate...
> 
> he wanted the one titled
> 
> http://www.oprahwinfrey.com


Gotta say man, your posts are all very funny


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

Floyde said:


> The people that pump themselves full of gear, ignore the diet or pay little attention to it, don't sleep enough or train right


shockingly this applies to nattys as well....

i have worked fukcing hard to get where i am now steroids do not make a physique yes they can get you bigger and stronger quicker but you don't just jab and lay back and BANG your HUGE!!!!

both naturals and steroid users have to pay as much attention to diet and training as each other...as real muscles are built with food/rest and training the end result is just acheived quicker with steroids

i preach good diet to newbies because most newbies to steroids have the opinion i mentioned above....


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## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

BigDom86 said:


> so you dont need a good diet when on gear then? i always see aas users preach this but i guess i was wrong, looks like gear does make you grow muscle whether you eat good or not and train good or not then?


No you dont need a perfect diet, yes you will grow pretty much what you do, especially if 1st course etc.

But for sure gains will be much less if diet is not up to much.

But IMO having a pretty decent diet and having a perfect diet does not facillite enough extra growth while on aas to warrant living like a monk IMO


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## PeterTheEater (May 20, 2004)

people do seem to forget your body is an engine basically..

you have to put the right amount and kind of fuel in to get the optimum performance out


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

BigDom86 said:


> so you dont need a good diet when on gear then? i always see aas users preach this but i guess i was wrong, looks like gear does make you grow muscle whether you eat good or not and train good or not then?


i preach it because i think everyone should know that their gains would be better and more keepable with a decent diet...

i have been using gear for 20yrs and lacked the knowldege for a good diet for many othose years i struggled to win shows no matter how much gear i took, until 2005 when i reduced my amount of gear by a third and increased my knowledge of diet by 1000% since then i have not lost a reginal qualifier anf placed 3rd in Britain......so i can say yes diet does have a huge infuence on your gains....

Dom can i ask why you feel the need to say the "8th natural wonder of the world" in your title under your avvy not just "8th wonder of the world"?


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## TH0R (Aug 15, 2007)

Pscarb said:


> increased my knowledge of diet by 1000%


How did you do this Ps, was it books etc or asking nutrionists, other bb's.

Another question that intersts me is should there be any differences in diet between user/non user, and do users take other natty supplements. :beer:


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## guinness (Jul 14, 2008)

I winder how much of the gains made on gear are also made by simultaneously cleaning up other lifestyle factors so as to maximise the cycle gains. Laying off alcohol for example to stress the kidneys less will massively improve how you look and feel. Eating moe and cleaner while on a cycle will clearly help too. Then when off a cycle is there a tendency to relax the diet and bit and slack off really training hard when those max lifts start to slip a little.

I judge nobody on their use of gear but what I do find a little sad are relative newbies who take it without paying their dues in the gym first, without understanding their diet and in ignorance of what aas may do to their bodies.

For those that do all this and make an informed decision to use aas, fair play I say, the bigger and leaner the better.

Back on topic, my personal opinion is that to find out what your natural potential is you need to do all the right things, seek informed help, train hard and smart and wait and see what it does for you. Once you have done all this for a few dedicated years if you are still not happy with your size then maybe aas are for you.


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## BigDom86 (Jul 27, 2008)

because there are many natural wonders of the world and for now i am one of them  is there something wrong with that mate?


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## Floyde (Jun 22, 2006)

Lin said:


> What is it with all this natty's work harder, more respect for natty's, I'm a natty look at me, I deserve more credit than him coz he's a sted head:confused1: who gives a shinalight.
> 
> Not everyone is blessed with freaky ace genetics, if you want to get super big and push YOURSELF to the limits with YOUR body AND your happy with takin steroids then go for it fill ya boots, what has it got to do with anyone else.
> 
> ...


I hear ya.. but this isn't what I started the topic about.. but I do admit I tend to go off tangents at times and not keep to what I original asked.

I just want to make it clear that I real have no less of respect for gear users than naturals.. and totally stand by personal choice and respect that.

As someone else said.. its probably very true that if I was more confident that I knew what I was doing and what it would do to ME then I would have probably dabled if not atleast bought gear.

But until a grow a bigger set of balls laugh I'm just interested in what is achievable.. and loads have answered.. thanks!


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## gav (Aug 28, 2008)

Pscarb said:


> why was my reply considered a war? i am as entitled to my opinion as much as anyone.....


Sorry i thought it would get everyone kicking off about who's best etc etc so i thought i'd mention it to prevent it, i didn't mean for it to come across like that.


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## Floyde (Jun 22, 2006)

jw007 said:


> No you dont need a perfect diet, yes you will grow pretty much what you do, especially if 1st course etc.
> 
> But for sure gains will be much less if diet is not up to much.
> 
> But IMO having a pretty decent diet and having a perfect diet does not facillite enough extra growth while on aas to warrant living like a monk IMO


I'm actually started to nod me heads at your posts... I guess I forget that when I look at this site its not just about body building.. but GAINS in all aspects of health, size, cardio, life style (looking good in club or beach etc...

Not everyone wants a comp winning body... and I guess these people are at the begining of the gear road... the Pro BB travel along way down the road and makes sure everything adds up.. diet, training, lifestyle etc.

I totally take onboard what your saying jw007..


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## BLUE(UK) (Jan 9, 2008)

I think that it's a shame that someone cant ask a simple question about what is possible to achieve without 'gear'(the type from a dodgy geezer lurking around a gym).

For some reason it seems to get a few peoples backs up and goes a bit off tangent as if there is no difference between a non user and a users regime(both diet and training) when i would be inclined to believe that the volume of both are different as well as the volume of the rewards.I dont think that the effort is greater in either and nor is it any less if wanting show condition.

I,for one certainly have a lot of admiration for those who compete and aim for their best condition but i dont have a lot of admiration for those who use 'gear' and rarely train,eat badly and look no better than a frequent trainer....in my opinion these very same people give those who strive for their best no matter what their aim is(bodybuiilding,powerlifting etc).

I also agree with what Con wrote before and with what JW007 wrote also.

There have been some good valid points within this thread but i dont see why someone should have to justify why they wish to proclaim their naturalness just the same as why someone shouldn't need to justify to others why they want to take 'gear'.It's an individual choice.


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## PeterTheEater (May 20, 2004)

well said


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## BLUE(UK) (Jan 9, 2008)

Britbb said:


> IT TAKES A REAL FUKING IDIOT TO ACTUALLY BELIEVE THAT 'THE REASON THEY WONT LOOK LIKE RONNIE COLEMAN IN 1999 IS 'ONLY' BECAUSE THEY ARENT TAKING STEROIDS.
> 
> Ronnie wouldve been the natural champ.....


Britbb,maybe i have misinformed and maybe you could clear this up,or anyone else who knows the answer.

Someone may have good genetics for building muscle/being proportionate etc to win shows naturally but this doesn't mean that their genetics would be so receptive to AAS so doesn't mean that they'd necessarily be a force within other type shows?

Am i right or wrong?

The reason i ask this is because not everyone responds to AAS in the same way just as not everyone builds muscle in the same way.

Thanks.


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## Guest (Sep 5, 2008)

Golden Man said:


> .No offence con yeah your big and some people on gear are big but being big and gear aint the key,


 I never said "cant be big with out drugs" i said "cant look like a freak" bigbritt has some superb genetics but he did not look like a freak with his natty stats, now with his 22 inch arms or whatever they are i think he looks freaky.

This thread cracks me up because normally i am the one saying people shouldnt be using any thing because they are not ready but here i am bigging drug use up:lol:

Every one is entitled to their opinion but dont kid your self when you see a ripped massive guy on the street by telling your self you will achieve that without drugs, 99.99999999% of the human population was not genetically programmed to carry such a huge amount of muscle.

As far as Loccet being natural i dont think he is but i dont care either way as i dont think he is that impressive (waits for the uproar)


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## BLUE(UK) (Jan 9, 2008)

Who's to say they weren't the pioneers?? 

Who's to say that one could achieve far more nowadays due to access to far better exercises....and creatine!! :tongue:


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## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

Gains said:


> If you want to see what's possible without using gear, just look at the pre-steroid era bodybuilders.
> 
> The likes of Bill Pearl, John Grimek, Steve Reeves, Reg Park and Steve Stanko are all examples of what you can do with a good diet, good routine and a sh1tload of hard work.


Ha ha, what you mean pre gear???

And if thats the case why do todays crop of "naturals" not come anywhere near size of grimek and park considering improved diet and training

Steroids have been used to improve performance since the 40s

Sandow was prob only true natural


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## Inggasson (Jul 13, 2008)

Ugh. I don't understand people who rave about creatine. In my experience, it's great for adding mass to your love-handles, and not much else. But no, I wouldn't consider a creatine user to be a roider.


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## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

Gains said:


> *Rob Hope (picture posted earlier in thread) looks just as big as Pearl, Park etc. He's one of today's crop of naturals.*
> 
> I'd say the vast majority of naturals these days never get that big because they either give up or turn to gear a long time before they get anywhere near.
> 
> ...


Rob hope is great shape and very cut, but is not as big as reg park or even grimek.

Rob prob weighs 13st ripped on stage???

Not massive by any means


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## Golden Man (Sep 10, 2005)

Con I PERSONALLY HAVE no wish to take anything or look freaky.As Ive said before too many people on gear critises people who compete naturally too small fear of needles etc THATS NONSENSE same as too many people say he's on gear thats why he is big. No you dont need a perfect diet but if you did gear but ate pizza chinese cakes everyday every meal. Con we have different aims your a size man I ate nothing to do with gear Id rather be melvin anthony,darrem charles than colman or cutler.Frankly gear taking for the sake of it DOESNT guarantee success..seen this first hand at a gym.Me personally I would step on stage with anyone if I get beat so be.Godfrey onyac 6ft 270 plus (under 290 though) off season weight how many people on board are that big and press 5plates aside ive been told marcel apel's brother can press over 5.5plates aside EASILY. Im at best 4plates at 210.I dont say im natural or I need a jab.Colman wasnt at his best straight of same cutler hope mezza time in my opinion is the key.Labelling people etc only comes into play when stepping on stage.Gains good post and blue uk,you dont have to justify whether you are natural or not.If you compete and you dont take substances you dont go on stage and say im natural I train harder etc etc and gear folks dont say im on gear so Im bigger and supposedly better.So in regards to the originally thread before it became a bash the natural and disregard people on roids the key is time then knowledge diet.You have to give yourself time to grow learn what works best for YOU and how your body reacts.Brittb if he was honest would tell you he doesnt live of burgers chips cakes 10cans chinese and pizza's everyday and takes gear and looks "freaky" (cons words Id say huge arms).He knows his body and what he cant or can do same as yourself con and im nowhere near your size but myself included.Ive seen people who have made the assumption that gear would make then ripped and huge and theyve put on weight (short and fat) or got big and watery for 3months then stopped because of the cost and their bodys reactions.

Everybody has a choice. My view after 7years finally figured out what works for me


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## Inggasson (Jul 13, 2008)

Here's a question... Given modern developments and the increasing knowledge of legit supplements and dietary factors, do you think an Arnold-type physique is possible naturally, free from steroids?


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## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

Gains said:


> I thought he was heavier than that. I saw some pictures of him here and he looks massive, especially his legs:
> 
> http://www.bnbf.co.uk/pro_Rob.htm
> 
> I hope you're wrong about Pearl, Park etc. Those guys are my idols and I don't want you to shatter my dreams :no:


He does look big on stage mate, but still easy under 200lb in comp condition

Yeah ok im wrong about those guys:thumb:


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## bogman (Jun 25, 2007)

jw007 said:


> You too Con??? I am suprised, no offence but from your bloated face and acne ridden back i could of sworn you were roided up to the eyeballs:lol:
> 
> But fair play, you dont look half bad physique wise for a natural.
> 
> ...


pmsl!

this is a good thread though and something I've thought several times.


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## BigDom86 (Jul 27, 2008)

those guys were natural, im sure many of the gear users will tell you otherwise to make themselves feel better though


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## BigDom86 (Jul 27, 2008)

maybe not reg park tho lol


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## Floyde (Jun 22, 2006)

I promise to leave it another 4 months before starting another thread!


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## Guest (Sep 5, 2008)

Inggasson said:


> Here's a question... Given modern developments and the increasing knowledge of legit supplements and dietary factors, do you think an Arnold-type physique is possible naturally, free from steroids?


 No.


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## BigDom86 (Jul 27, 2008)

^^ thats true for those of us in big cities etc. but in the countryside and other places where people eat everything fresh then its much less. my friend brought back pictures of african bodybuilders when he went home and some of them are very big, they basically live on fish and ALOT of fresh meat.


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## Beans (Sep 1, 2008)

The olny thing that will limit a natural trainer, is his genetics.

Everything else is in his own hands.


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## BigDom86 (Jul 27, 2008)

genetics to a certain extent i am not too sure though as i have **** genetics if you look at my parents. both were very short and skinny as i come from a family of runners


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## Beans (Sep 1, 2008)

Your body will limit the amount of muscle you will keep naturaly.

Theres no excaping this.

Your genetics, mabey completly opposite to that of your parents.

Thats where steroids come in handy, they take you past this genetic limitor.


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## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

Gains said:


> Surely genetics will determine how much muscle you build naturally, but not how much you can keep? Otherwise that'd mean *that once you take gear, you're forced to use it forever or you'll shrink back down even if you train and eat really well.*
> 
> Or is that actually the case?


pretty much mate


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## Golden Man (Sep 10, 2005)

Genes me and my brothers need to speak to our dad as we aint inherited his arms 21 in his prime didnt do weights take substances etc just shifted bus engines..damn.The biggest my arms have been 18.25 but then again my dad had scrawny legs no back and a really small chest.So in away glad i aint got his jeans...genes


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## Ironhorse (Mar 21, 2008)

jw007 said:


> Cheers mate:thumb:


So your not natural? You lying dawg


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## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

Ironhorse said:


> So your not natural? You lying dawg


err *cough* *cough* I am today:thumb:


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

Gains said:


> If you want to see what's possible without using gear, just look at the pre-steroid era bodybuilders.
> 
> The likes of Bill Pearl, John Grimek, Steve Reeves, Reg Park and Steve Stanko are all examples of what you can do with a good diet, good routine and a sh1tload of hard work.


Can i ask how you know this seeing as steroids have been around since the 40's?



Inggasson said:


> Here's a question... Given modern developments and the increasing knowledge of legit supplements and dietary factors, do you think an Arnold-type physique is possible naturally, free from steroids?


I believe it can be but only for the odd one or two guys who are blessed definitely not for the other 99.9% of naturals



BigDom86 said:


> those guys were natural, im sure many of the gear users will tell you otherwise to make themselves feel better though


Can you show me how you know this??



Gains said:


> Surely genetics will determine how much muscle you build naturally, but not how much you can keep? Otherwise that'd mean that once you take gear, you're forced to use it forever or you'll shrink back down even if you train and eat really well.
> 
> Or is that actually the case?


This is not true you would not shrink down to your pre-steroid use size if you stopped steroids unless you also stopped eating and training like a bodybuilder.....if you still trained and eat well you would hold onto some of the muscle...

the common theme on these threads is that those who don't use steroids look down on those who do believing they are morally higher because they don't use gear...this makes me laugh....i use gear because i choose to naturals don't use gear because they choose not to but i wonder how many of those preaching it now will be using in the next 12-24months and coming on here for advice of the likes of me and the other sted heads


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

you see thats the thing as when i first started using gear i did not want to be freaky or compete either....


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## Golden Man (Sep 10, 2005)

Paul not everyone who competes naturally looks down at people who compete naturally that generalisation is the same as saying all naturals are small and if your on gear your better.I get annoyed that naturals ie people who compee naturally get such a bad rep from assisted competitors.Fact is if you step on stage fair play but you still have to train have the knowledge some sort of diet/eat good foods.At the end of the day we all go gym to achieve what we personally deem to be our best.Mezza is freaky full stop alun davies as well.Id rather be dean garrett or shaun tavern(if thats his name about 5ft4 black dude).

As i say each to their own just dont set yourself limits before you even get started:tongue::cool:


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

where the hell did i say those who compete naturally look down on those naturals who don't compete?


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## Golden Man (Sep 10, 2005)

:confused1: oops typing error should read not natural


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## Britbb (Sep 7, 2007)

BLUE(UK) said:


> Britbb,maybe i have misinformed and maybe you could clear this up,or anyone else who knows the answer.
> 
> Someone may have good genetics for building muscle/being proportionate etc to win shows naturally but this doesn't mean that their genetics would be so receptive to AAS so doesn't mean that they'd necessarily be a force within other type shows?
> 
> ...


No, youre not misinformed mate, good question.

But as for ronnie (and why i mentioned him), he won the same title locket won in order to turn pro (forgotten the name), some tested team universe or world title that they gave a pro card at.

Ronnie was in the tested competition...therefore we can say he won a 'natural' show to get his pro card.

So therefore it stands to reason that he is the best natural and best bodybuilder of all time.

He had the goods before using aas and whilst using.

Therefore with ronnie, if anyone 'only respects da naturals' why not look at ronnies pix the day he won his contest to go pro at?


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## BLUE(UK) (Jan 9, 2008)

So can we assume 'Ron' is very lucky in his genes and the fact aas(if he does take them)works well on him whereas if Locket took them,he may not get much more than 2st of muscle or he could well exceed 'Ron's achievements and gain 6st of solid proportionate muscle?

Just slightly off thought.

And yes,i have been waiting since you last posted. :whistling: :lol: :lol:


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## Tall (Aug 14, 2007)

Britbb said:


> No, youre not misinformed mate, good question.
> 
> But as for ronnie (and why i mentioned him), he won the same title locket won in order to turn pro (forgotten the name), some tested team universe or world title that they gave a pro card at.
> 
> ...


Correction Brit  - you are making an assumption Ronnie was natural as he won a tested comp.

There is a difference.

Natty and tested are two different things.

Dwayne Chambers competed in a tested athletics federation.

Sadly for him he failed his test.


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## Britbb (Sep 7, 2007)

Pscarb said:


> Can i ask how you know this seeing as steroids have been around since the 40's?
> 
> I believe it can be but only for the odd one or two guys who are blessed definitely not for the other 99.9% of naturals
> 
> ...


Hahaha paul, its so true!

But whats even funnier is this:

YOU NEVER GET MEZZA, FIVOS, ROB HOPE ETC EVER CRITICISING ANYONE THAT USES GEAR!

The guys with the best natural physiques on the board, capable of winning tested or some untested classes/contests NEVER criticise gear users. (Ive never seen it).

This to me tells me that guys like fivos (who love bodybuilding) are true athletes.

If you notice the trend on here (and any forum), it seems to be guys mainly with no pictures of themselves, not much knowledge of bodybuilding and not many real life results who try to slate people that use gear.

Yet the natural bodybuilders who are REAL ATHLETES such as fivos etc on the board WILL NEVER SLATE A GOOD PHYSIQUE, ESSPECIALLY NOT GEAR OR NO GEAR.

This is why i have a lot of respect for fivos et al, plus they are good blokes aswell

But the fact remains, you can get some get some pictureless person behind a keyboard criticising the likes of ronnie coleman, kev levrone, dorian yates, jay cutler etc etc...and praising the likes of someone who has a beach body and doesnt compete but trains naturally and has achieved a decent non competitive level.

Yet then you have the likes of fivos etc who ARE THE TOP NATURALS IN THE COUNTRY who will respect ronnie coleman/jay cutler immensely.

It just makes people look so uneducated about bodybuilding if they start criticising the likes of ronnie coleman etc for using aas or anything.

It the type of thing i wouldve said after 6 months of natural training and knowing relatively nothing about my body...but as i progress through the journey my knowledge and mindset changes...as does everyones.

When people realise what its about, then they will know they have gained the correct knowledge to UNDERSTAND, until then they simply do not know what they are talking about.


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## Britbb (Sep 7, 2007)

TH&S said:


> Correction Brit  - you are making an assumption Ronnie was natural as he won a tested comp.
> 
> There is a difference.
> 
> ...


No mate, i know this...ronnie might notve been natural...but seeing as he past his tests and won, we can only assume the same as that for anyone who competes in natural feds and passes their tests


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## Tall (Aug 14, 2007)

Britbb said:


> No mate, i know this...ronnie might notve been natural...but seeing as he past his tests and won, we can only assume the same as that for anyone who competes in natural feds and passes their tests


I prefer "Drug Tested" but we are only splitting hairs :thumb:


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## BLUE(UK) (Jan 9, 2008)

Britbb said:


> No mate, i know this...ronnie might notve been natural...but seeing as he past his tests and won, we can only assume the same as that for anyone who competes in natural feds and passes their tests


 Agreed.

I sure dont look down on people who aint natural but i do look down on those who take aas without even trying to train hard/eat an half decent diet and wonder why they look ****e.Whether they compete or not isn't of any importance to me.

As for not posting my own pics on here is quite simply due to the nature of my job which has an high potential to me getting PM's(abuse) from anyone who has been dealt with by myself in the course of my work.


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## leveret (Jun 13, 2007)

I'm aiming for at least 16stone with decent abs before i even thinking about roids. thats about 2 stone of muscle away atm


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## Tall (Aug 14, 2007)

Liam said:


> I'm aiming for at least 16stone with decent abs before i even thinking about roids. thats about 2 stone of muscle away atm


LOL @ 'roids'


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## leveret (Jun 13, 2007)

TH&S said:


> LOL @ 'roids'


easy way of putting it


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## nathanlowe (Jan 8, 2008)

tel3563 said:


> :confused1: :confused1::confused1:Why have you quoted me on this? It was a question i was interested in knowing, do you not agree that recovery time/volume etc are much better on aas so advice (of which I need plenty, although I'm no newbie) coming from an aas user to a natty is somewhat misguided, I don't for one minute think all aas users are "stupid", Some of my best mates use, but what i do know is that there are many who are "stupid" including some of my mates,but normally chav d-cks who in no time at all are strutting round the gym thinking they are the dogs, *grunting and groaning like there training to be the next Mr Olympia* when really all they wanna do is look in the mirror and work on some sh*thole door.
> 
> I will reiterate, I don't know enough about aas and I have no problem with anyone who takes them, I doubt if I ever take them but who knows, I only really know what I read in the paper (bitch tits and heart attacks) and will endeavour to learn more, maybe one day i'll want to look freaky big, so you can now come down off the horse:thumb:


I grunt and groan because im trying so hard and am determined to make that last rep which will enable me a weight increase.

So whats your problem with grunting and groaning.


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## TH0R (Aug 15, 2007)

nathanlowe said:


> I grunt and groan because im trying so hard and am determined to make that last rep which will enable me a weight increase.
> 
> So whats your problem with grunting and groaning.


 :lol: :lol:i have absolutely no problem with grunting & groaning, ive been known to partake myself


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## essexboy (Sep 7, 2008)

jw007 said:


> Oh for sure a natty can definately hold their own against a juicer anyday of the week, it just takes a lot of dedication and sacrifice.
> 
> I have given up beer and women and basically anything fun in the pursuit of that extra "inch".
> 
> ...


this guy doesnt just look good. he looks terrific.if this level, isnt enough proof that hard graft works(perhaps with a sprinkling of genetics thrown in)then nothing will convince you of what is possible.If however you want to see what stopping steroids does, watch the levrone video. if you havent seen this be prepared for the shock of your life.


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## Britbb (Sep 7, 2007)

essexboy said:


> this guy doesnt just look good. he looks terrific.if this level, isnt enough proof that hard graft works(perhaps with a sprinkling of genetics thrown in)then nothing will convince you of what is possible.If however you want to see what stopping steroids does, watch the levrone video. if you havent seen this be prepared for the shock of your life.


Mate, if only you knew the truth:lol:

:laugh::laugh:

Jw0, reps mate:lol: 

Data da troof innit essex boi...jus luk at levrone now eh?

HES RUBBISH INNIT?

PURE 110% steroid trash, it proves it surely innit? ALL WE NEED IS DA STEROID TO LOOK LIKE DEM NEXT MANZ KEV LEVRONE INNIT? N den rinse dem biatches wit da gold chainz n da bare rags gangsta innit? Wid da next gyal bowling jus like levrone wit bare gyal n blinged up. Yoo got da steroids bruv n den we get dem bare biatches bruv, yoo kno it true, bare biatches!

If you cn get me dem der steriod blue tabletz n den we look like levrone in 1992 innit mush?


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## TH0R (Aug 15, 2007)

Britbb said:


> Mate, if only you knew the truth:lol:
> 
> :laugh::laugh:
> 
> ...


 :lol: :lol::lol:LMFAO


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## Golden Man (Sep 10, 2005)

Britbb said:


> Mate, if only you knew the truth:lol:
> 
> :laugh::laugh:
> 
> ...


Was that an attempt at street slang or a mad moment.

Anyhow I agree with what you previously said.I just find it annoying that people make stupid assumptions eg he is only big because of gear,all naturals are on gear ,naturals are all small,spots are a sign of roid usage,the more gear you take the better you will be etc.I train just as hard as mezza,pscarb trains just as hard as fivos etc only difference is the platform of choice to display/compete in.One is natural and the other isnt but it doesnt matter at the end of the day its competition.Ive only been training for 7years maybe I wont get bigger but it doesnt mean I wont get better.From a bodybuilding prospective just dont make the assumption that bigger is better.Big and in shape will and should always beat smooth and huge.

Me personally im no a fan of most olympia bodys and I wouldnt want to look like that but I know that they put in more time effort and dedication than average joe shows in his day to day living.I couldnt imagine being 5ft10 300pound and doing an hour cardio on a stepper.I just think in such a small sport the seperation ie natural or not is emphasised too much at the end of the day you make a choice and at the time its not life threating.


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## BigDom86 (Jul 27, 2008)

why do you guys take the **** out people tht talk that way? i dont get it. if your not from there then you wont understand. come down my ways and everyone talks like that, i would love you to get off at my station and start taking the **** lol wouldnt last a second.

but anyway either way if you take gear or not, you can still get a VERY long way without gear, it will just take more time. i know guys with 21 inch arms natural, and alot of these guys dont even go gym they are construction workers. they might carry a little fat, but still very muscular. if i would have to hazard a guess i would say between 15-20% one of my best friends who works construction, but hes a bit older


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## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

BigDom86 said:


> *why do you guys take the **** out people tht talk that way? i dont get it. if your not from there then you wont understand. come down my ways and everyone talks like that, i would love you to get off at my station and start taking the **** lol wouldnt last a second.*
> 
> but anyway either way if you take gear or not, you can still get a VERY long way without gear, it will just take more time. i know guys with 21 inch arms natural, and alot of these guys dont even go gym they are construction workers. they might carry a little fat, but still very muscular. if i would have to hazard a guess i would say between 15-20% one of my best friends who works construction, but hes a bit older


Because mate, talking that way and typing that way on a forum are 2 completely different things.

Bare in mind most people who use forums wouldnt understand what they are saying 1st and foremost.

French people dont type with a french accent do they??

Your mates dont read newspapers the way they speak??

And you yourself "from that way" are sensible enough to type in clearly legible English

No matter how you talk


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## Tinytom (Sep 16, 2005)

Britbb said:


> Mate, if only you knew the truth:lol:
> 
> :laugh::laugh:
> 
> ...


Get me bruv.

LMAO wish I could rep you more.


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## Tinytom (Sep 16, 2005)

jw007 said:


> Because mate, talking that way and typing that way on a forum are 2 completely different things.
> 
> Bare in mind most people who use forums wouldnt understand what they are saying 1st and foremost.
> 
> ...


I agree monsignor JW.

I myself hail from a more eloquent area of the United Kingdom where beggars and vagabonds are justly beaten by the constables on a daily basis.

I attended a grammar school in the rural county of Worcestershire and we were truly grateful of not having to accomodate infractions of the Queens English on a daily basis by the chav gentlemen in their superlatively vocal automobiles.

But in order to communicate in a concise and agreeable fashion I sometimes have to lower my vocabulary so that the likes of Pscarb and TH&S can understand as I know they are from lesser backgrounds, which is not their fault as even the uneducated deserve the chance to speak however incorrect.


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## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

Tinytom said:


> I agree monsignor JW.
> 
> I myself hail from a more eloquent area of the United Kingdom where beggars and vagabonds are justly beaten by the constables on a daily basis.
> 
> ...


LMFAO :lol: :lol: :lol:

spoken like a true gent what! what! what!


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## Tasty (Aug 28, 2007)

Area doesn't really have anything to do with it either, I grew up in North London and a fair few of my mates with no jamaican or african roots grew up talking like that - even though I lived down the road and spent all day every day with them I don't speak jamafrican and I certainly don't write that way.


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## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

BigDom86 said:


> why do you guys take the **** out people tht talk that way? i dont get it. if your not from there then you wont understand. come down my ways and everyone talks like that, i would love you to get off at my station and start taking the **** lol wouldnt last a second.
> 
> *but anyway either way if you take gear or not, you can still get a VERY long way without gear, it will just take more time. i know guys with 21 inch arms natural, and alot of these guys dont even go gym they are construction workers. they might carry a little fat, but still very muscular. if i would have to hazard a guess i would say between 15-20% one of my best friends who works construction, but hes a bit older*


Oh and i know a guy who takes sh1t loads of gear, trains his ar5e off in gym, eats like food is going out of fashion and only has 16" arms

Imagine what a pencil neck he would be without gear


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## shauno (Aug 26, 2007)

Liam said:


> I'm aiming for at least 16stone with decent abs before i even thinking about roids. thats about 2 stone of muscle away atm


good luck.

give it another year of good training when the gains really start to slow down.

2 stones dont seem like much if youve newby gained 3/4 stone in your first 2/3 years, but you'll realise two stone of proper dry muscle. no carbs, no water etc, is ****ing loads

Dont take it to heart dude, i was the same. thinking about it in terms of deadweight but the thing is generally we can be guilty of overestimate how much actual lbm we carry and underestimate the amount of fat/water.


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## leveret (Jun 13, 2007)

shauno said:


> good luck.
> 
> give it another year of good training when the gains really start to slow down.
> 
> ...


I realise thats a long way away and a high target. But I've only been training 1 year. The year ahead of me will be alot better diet and training wise (I'm not a beginner anymore, I know what I need)

My goal may change but that'll depend on how I get on over the next 1 - 2 years of training.


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## MaKaVeLi (Aug 12, 2008)

18yrBodyBuilder said:


> im 18
> 
> << i started hittin the gym 6 times a week
> 
> ...


hi bigboyg


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## completegyms (Sep 8, 2008)

Guys, take it from me who is working with tested athletes everyday. Don't ever think your missing out from not taking steriods. All you need is a little bit of education in supplementation. Don't throw your money away on products that only give a slight benefit. Put your money into tried and tested products that will leave you sized and ripped. Check out www.completegay.com and you'll find what the top strongmen, body builders, athletes are using today. If you need to ask any questions please reply to the thread or email me at [email protected]


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## BigDom86 (Jul 27, 2008)

> Oh and i know a guy who takes sh1t loads of gear, trains his ar5e off in gym, eats like food is going out of fashion and only has 16" arms
> 
> Imagine what a pencil neck he would be without gear


lol if that was the case i would just give up. gear to get 16" arms? thats pathetic, his training or diet must be really ****. im a ecto with a very high metabolism and have 17.5 right now natural :| just have to eat **** loads and train till my arms go numb


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## Tinytom (Sep 16, 2005)

completegyms said:


> Guys, take it from me who is working with tested athletes everyday. Don't ever think your missing out from not taking steriods. All you need is a little bit of education in supplementation. Don't throw your money away on products that only give a slight benefit. Put your money into tried and tested products that will leave you sized and ripped. Check out www.completegay.com and you'll find what the top strongmen, body builders, athletes are using today. If you need to ask any questions please reply to the thread or email me at [email protected]


LMAO

What a load of crap

Is that like you amino supplement that steroids can't keep up with?


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## Mr Brown (Mar 20, 2007)

I lol'd @ the link and email

I'm so childish


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## BLUE(UK) (Jan 9, 2008)

It looks like an alternative source of 'protein'!!

:thumb: :thumb : :thumb:


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## merve500 (Sep 10, 2008)

THE FACT IS SOME ONE WHO TRAINS NATURAL CAN ACHIVE A VERY DECENT PHYSIQUE!

BUT TO BE ONE BIG AS MASS MONSTER YOUVE GOTA BE TAKINGA **** LOAD OF GEAR!

I MYSELF BELIVE THAT ROB HOPE MAY TAKE GROWTH,

THE WAY FORWARD IS TO TAKE DECENT SUPPLEMENTS AND GET A DECENT FOUNDATION THEN BEGIN CYCLEING PROPERLY TO ACHIVE A STAGE PHYSIQUE

DONT YOU THINK?

X


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## Tall (Aug 14, 2007)

Tinytom said:


> I agree monsignor JW.
> 
> I myself hail from a more eloquent area of the United Kingdom where beggars and vagabonds are justly beaten by the constables on a daily basis.
> 
> ...


Y dnt u sht it Tom? Id luv 4u2get [email protected] trn st8ion cos u wudnt lst5mins man u ere wot Im sayn??

PMSL

(Took me forever to write in txt spk - why dont folks just write normally? It's much faster - 4real blud.)


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## Beans (Sep 1, 2008)

Gains said:


> Surely genetics will determine how much muscle you build naturally, but not how much you can keep? *Otherwise that'd mean that once you take gear, you're forced to use it forever or you'll shrink back down even if you train and eat really well.*
> 
> *Or is that actually the case?*


For Jay Cutler / Ronnie Coleman. Yes, without doubt.

For Joe Blogs. No. Unless he stopped eating/training like a BB.


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## Beans (Sep 1, 2008)

essexboy said:


> this guy doesnt just look good. he looks terrific.if this level, isnt enough proof that hard graft works(perhaps with a sprinkling of genetics thrown in)then nothing will convince you of what is possible.*If however you want to see what stopping steroids does*, watch the levrone video. if you havent seen this be prepared for the shock of your life.


Dude are you serious.

Do you know what you have to do to get to that level?

Of course the Pro's shrink if they stop using Steroids.

If you want to be a contender for the Olympia, then your going to need very high levels of exogenus androgens over a long period of time. Some people disagree with this, but that's up to them. I just speak my opinions.

Most Olympiads will be using silly high levels of androgens, peptides and POM's, year round, either to retain the muscle mass that they have already aquired. Or to attempt to get bigger.

Because your body cant feed all that extra muscle with it's endo. Testosterone levels. No way mate, that's not possible.

If it takes 5 Grams of Test a week to grow the muscle, what makes you think that you can maintain the muscle on the natural 10-27 Grams a week?

It's just not possible.

So why wouldn't they shrink?


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## Tinytom (Sep 16, 2005)

Beans said:


> Dude are you serious.
> 
> Do you know what you have to do to get to that level?
> 
> ...


LOL thats some serious natural test production.

I agree with you mate, its stands to reason that ANY athlete that retires from competition will not look as good years on after they stop training at the high level and whatever goes with it.


----------

