# Do you really need to "eat more"?



## Tomahawk (Dec 24, 2014)

Every time myself or anybody else suggests in any way that they might not be making optimal muscle gains, regardless of the situation or context, approximately 50% of the responses will be "eat more". Even if you tell them that you're eating 800 calories above maintenance, they say "if you're not gaining you're not eating enough". Even if you tell them you're putting on substantial amount of fat from all the food you're eating, they still say "you're not eating enough, food is the best anabolic".

Where did this come from? I'm baffled by the bodybuilding's community's obsession with this idea.

As far as I've experienced, you only need a very slight calorie surplus to make gains, and anything more than that just turns into fat, even on gear. If you're not making gains on a calorie surplus, "eating more" will just make you fat.

Even pregnant women are advised that they don't need to overeat during pregnancy. Research for pregnant women shows that the body will naturally absorb more nutrients and calories from the exact same diet, when required. Only in the 3rd trimester are pregnant women advised to increase their calories -- and even then only by 200 calories. They grow an entire new person with less than 200 extra calories/day.

It seems to me that many "bros" see bulking the same way women see pregnancy: An excuse to binge eat -- and as these things go, they want to encourage others to do the same.


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## Archaic (Mar 8, 2010)

Unless you have reached the epitome of your bodies ability to add any more lean muscle - then you're either are half ar$ed training, or not eating enough.

That is if you want to get any bigger anyway, I'm content with being 15 stone at 5'10", so I stick to roughly the same kcals on average per day, and train the same way each week.

If you are not content and not getting any bigger, then either your training is gay, or you're under eating. Simple as that mate.


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## Tomahawk (Dec 24, 2014)

Archaic said:


> Unless you have reached the epitome of your bodies ability to add any more lean muscle - then you're either are half ar$ed training, or not eating enough.
> 
> That is if you want to get any bigger anyway, I'm content with being 15 stone at 5'10", so I stick to roughly the same kcals on average per day, and train the same way each week.
> 
> If you are not content and not getting any bigger, then either your training is gay, or you're under eating. Simple as that mate.


 No, and this isn't about me. I just made an observation from my experience.

Lack of gains could be from a number of factors: Overtraining, inadequate sleep, poor hormone balance, incorrect training, etc. It could even be that you are making gains but your body makes muscle gains more slowly than you want it to. The point is that if you're eating enough to be gaining fat, then food is not the problem, and most people don't seem to get this. They will still say "eat more".

Also I'm not saying that eating is never the problem, it is true that some people don't eat enough. But the bodybuilding community seems to think that "eating more" is the solution to all problems.


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## Archaic (Mar 8, 2010)

Tomahawk said:


> No. It could be a number of things: Overtraining, inadequate sleep, poor hormone balance, incorrect training, etc. The point is that if you're eating enough to be gaining fat, then food is not the problem, and most people don't seem to get this. They will still say "eat more".


 Over-training - vastly overused term by beta's to justify lack of gains, IMO.

Sleep - I get 6 hours per night max, the bro science says you need 7-8hrs to gain, so I will chalk that one down to bollox.

Poor hormone balance , if your testosterone levels were THAT low, you would know well before you starting wondering why you aren't gaining any muscle....

Incorrect training - gay training.


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## Tomahawk (Dec 24, 2014)

Archaic said:


> Over-training - vastly overused term by beta's to justify lack of gains, IMO.
> 
> Sleep - I get 6 hours per night max, the bro science says you need 7-8hrs to gain, so I will chalk that one down to bollox.
> 
> ...


 Still off topic. The point is that if you're eating enough to gain fat consistently, the problem is not inadequate eating.


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## Archaic (Mar 8, 2010)

Tomahawk said:


> Still off topic. The point is that if you're eating enough to gain fat consistently, the problem is not inadequate eating.


 Still on topic, it's either under-training OR under-eating - 90% of time!

90% of the time these people will find an excuse as to why that is not the case too, unsurprisingly.


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## Tomahawk (Dec 24, 2014)

Archaic said:


> Still on topic, it's either under-training OR under-eating - 90% of time!
> 
> 90% of the time these people will find an excuse as to why that is not the case too, unsurprisingly.


 If you say so bro.


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## Archaic (Mar 8, 2010)

Tomahawk said:


> If you say so bro.


 Occam's razor.


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## Tomahawk (Dec 24, 2014)

Archaic said:


> Occam's razor.


 Well that's just conjecture on your part, and even by your made-up numbers, that only covers 90% of people. Which leaves a substantial number of people whose problem is not undereating or training "gay", and these people may want to try to figure out what they're doing wrong..


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## Archaic (Mar 8, 2010)

Tomahawk said:


> Well that's just conjecture on your part, and even by your made-up numbers, that only covers 90% of people. Which leaves a substantial number of people whose problem is not undereating or training "gay", and these people may want to try to figure out what they're doing wrong..


 You obviously know best, on all things it seems.

I'll let you carry on with the pursuit of your non-existent conundrum.


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## mrwright (Oct 22, 2013)

I shout "ooooo suits you sirr" when i lift

Am i lifting gay?


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## andyboro (Oct 1, 2006)

mrwright said:


> I shout "ooooo suits you sirr" when i lift
> 
> Am i lifting gay?


 Only if you're doing 'I'm a little teacup' curls


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## andyboro (Oct 1, 2006)

Tomahawk said:


> Well that's just conjecture on your part, and even by your made-up numbers, that only covers 90% of people. Which leaves a substantial number of people whose problem is not undereating or training "gay", and these people may want to try to figure out what they're doing wrong..


 On a forum like this one where there is a relatively high turnover of members, it's likely that the obvious answer is the right one.

I agree that there can be other factors (not so much 'gay' training) but the question is usually 'I've been bulking on 'x' for weeks and haven't gained anything'. The answer there is invariably diet, just as it is when the question is reversed and someone can't drop fat.

It's a real clichè I know, but the old 'bodies are made in the kitchen' seems pretty much true to me.


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## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

If you're not gaining eat more....if you're not losing eat less. It really is very simple.


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## Theorist (Jun 18, 2013)

It's stupid. If you're gaining fat then you're eating enough, probably even too much. The problem, if there even is one at all and you're not just expecting too much is elsewhere. It's only a case of eating more if the scale isn't moving at all.


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## Acidreflux (Mar 3, 2015)

Archaic said:


> Over-training - vastly overused term by beta's to justify lack of gains, IMO.
> 
> Sleep - I get 6 hours per night max, the bro science says you need 7-8hrs to gain, so I will chalk that one down to bollox.
> 
> ...


 Arnie supposedly over trained but if you get what he got then fuk it!


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## Fluke82 (Sep 10, 2015)

If aren't gaining weight eat more

jf you're gaining too much fat in your weight gain eat a bit less

Not complicated


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## SwAn1 (Jun 4, 2012)

I quite regularly gain mass and lose fat at the same time. It's called using gear and knowing what macro ratios work for you. For me it's high fat high protein minimum carbs


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## JUICE1 (Jan 28, 2016)

FelonE said:


> If you're not gaining eat more....if you're not losing eat less. It really is very simple.


 His point is, what if you ARE gaining but it's all fat and no muscle? Obviously you're in a surplus so there must be something else amiss.

Either extremeley poor training or lack of testsoterone I guess.


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## lukeyybrown1 (Jun 4, 2014)

I think it does get to the point where if you are eating more and more then it does get to the time during your bulk where you do put fat on.


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## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

JUICE1 said:


> His point is, what if you ARE gaining but it's all fat and no muscle? Obviously you're in a surplus so there must be something else amiss.
> 
> Either extremeley poor training or lack of testsoterone I guess.


 Then you wouldn't be training hard enough I'd say. If you're gaining fat then you're gaining and don't need to eat more,if you're just gaining fat and no muscle you'll probably need to lower cals a bit and train harder.


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## BLUE(UK) (Jan 9, 2008)

Or the person could be eating the wrong things when they think 'eat more'.


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## gymfreak2010 (Jan 6, 2016)

Archaic said:


> Over-training - vastly overused term by beta's to justify lack of gains, IMO.
> 
> Sleep - I get 6 hours per night max, the bro science says you need 7-8hrs to gain, so I will chalk that one down to bollox.
> 
> ...


 gay training mate


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## Dieseldave (Jul 8, 2013)

Archaic said:


> Sleep - I get 6 hours per night max, the bro science says you need 7-8hrs to gain, so I will chalk that one down to bollox.


 But you have already stated that you're happy at your current weight so eat the same cals and train the same way every week. You're not growing you're maintaining.


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## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

lukeyybrown1 said:


> I think it does get to the point where if you are eating more and more then it does get to the time during your bulk where you do put fat on.


 If you eat too much. When you gain you're gonna gain fat as well it's just about keeping it minimal.


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## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

BLUE(UK) said:


> Or the person could be eating the wrong things when they think 'eat more'.


 What are 'wrong things'?


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## RepsForJesus (Jul 9, 2015)

FelonE said:


> What are 'wrong things'?


 Pizza with hot dogs in the crust, that just seems wrong to me


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## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

RepsForJesus said:


> Pizza with hot dogs in the crust, that just seems wrong to me


 I'm eating Cocopops and biscuits and gaining well lol


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## andyboro (Oct 1, 2006)

RepsForJesus said:


> Pizza with hot dogs in the crust, that just seems wrong to me


 Anything with hotdogs in its anywhere!

how does anyone eat those rolls of grey, mushy sh!te?!

pizza with burgers in the crust however..... awesome!


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## Dark sim (May 18, 2013)

Tomahawk said:


> Every time myself or anybody else suggests in any way that they might not be making optimal muscle gains, regardless of the situation or context, approximately 50% of the responses will be "eat more". Even if you tell them that you're eating 800 calories above maintenance, they say "if you're not gaining you're not eating enough". Even if you tell them you're putting on substantial amount of fat from all the food you're eating, they still say "you're not eating enough, food is the best anabolic".
> 
> Where did this come from? I'm baffled by the bodybuilding's community's obsession with this idea.
> 
> ...


 Can't say I've seen this answer, if the person has said they are just getting fat. This is different to someone saying they cannot put on weight.


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## Colin (Sep 28, 2015)

I think I get where @Tomahawkis coming from.

There will be a certain point where you can keep increasing foods as much as you want and training volume/ frequency and you plateau and you will get alot of people saying "eat more" and "train harder" but this isn't always the case. Time off, a break, eating at maintenance for a while etc can be the answer to stagnation.

However having said that in regards to getting bigger in the scheme of things eating in surplus and progressive training as everyone has said is the determining factor.


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## RepsForJesus (Jul 9, 2015)

andyboro said:


> Anything with hotdogs in its anywhere!
> 
> how does anyone eat those rolls of grey, mushy sh!te?!
> 
> pizza with burgers in the crust however..... awesome!


 Yeah!! F**k hotdogs.....

I've seen the crusts with the burgers in them, can't say they appealed either to be fair


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## TIDALWAVE (Aug 30, 2015)

Tomahawk said:


> Every time myself or anybody else suggests in any way that they might not be making optimal muscle gains, regardless of the situation or context, approximately 50% of the responses will be "eat more". Even if you tell them that you're eating 800 calories above maintenance, they say "if you're not gaining you're not eating enough". Even if you tell them you're putting on substantial amount of fat from all the food you're eating, they still say "you're not eating enough, food is the best anabolic".
> 
> Where did this come from? I'm baffled by the bodybuilding's community's obsession with this idea.
> 
> ...


 Yes but finding that point takes time and your body adjusts


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## Tomahawk (Dec 24, 2014)

Dark sim said:


> Can't say I've seen this answer, if the person has said they are just getting fat. This is different to someone saying they cannot put on weight.


 I've seen it many times, someone says they're gaining weight but it's fat and not muscle, and then somebody replies "if your not gaining your not eating enough, simples".


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## Dark sim (May 18, 2013)

Tomahawk said:


> I've seen it many times, someone says they're gaining weight but it's fat and not muscle, and then somebody replies "if your not gaining your not eating enough, simples".


 I haven't seen this, and would correct it in a second...you can do the same.


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## Tomahawk (Dec 24, 2014)

Dark sim said:


> I haven't seen this, and would correct it in a second...you can do the same.


 Sure, it's obviously bollocks, but I'm fascinated that the community does this: they prescribe "eat more" without even thinking or looking at the problem.


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## Dark sim (May 18, 2013)

Tomahawk said:


> Sure, it's obviously bollocks, but I'm fascinated that the community does this: they prescribe "eat more" without even thinking or looking at the problem.


 There is a lot of BS in the fitness industry full stop.


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## Major Eyeswater (Nov 2, 2013)

"Eat more" is probably the answer to the majority of "I'm not gaining" problems for beginners & intermediates.

"I'm running an 800 surplus and haven't gained any weight in months !" No mate - if you haven't gained any weight in months, then by definition, you are not running a surplus, and you generally need surplus calories to gain muscle.

Once you are advanced, it gets a lot more complicated. You may be at the maximum lean bodyweight you are ever going to get without upping dosages, so more calories won't neccessarily help. If you are in surplus & laying down fat deposits, more calories won't magically grow you muscle tissue - you just get fat quicker.


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## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

Tomahawk said:


> I've seen it many times, someone says they're gaining weight but it's fat and not muscle, and then somebody replies "if your not gaining your not eating enough, simples".


 I've never seen someone suggest eating more if the person is getting fat


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## Tomahawk (Dec 24, 2014)

Major Eyeswater said:


> "Eat more" is probably the answer to the majority of "I'm not gaining" problems for beginners & intermediates.
> 
> "I'm running an 800 surplus and haven't gained any weight in months !" No mate - if you haven't gained any weight in months, then by definition, you are not running a surplus, and you generally need surplus calories to gain muscle.
> 
> *Once you are advanced, it gets a lot more complicated. You may be at the maximum lean bodyweight you are ever going to get without upping dosages, so more calories won't neccessarily help. If you are in surplus & laying down fat deposits, more calories won't magically grow you muscle tissue - you just get fat quicker.*


 Then it goes to show that telling people to "eat more" without asking questions about where they are and what they're doing, is just a blind shot in the dark.


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## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

Tomahawk said:


> Then it goes to show that telling people to "eat more" without asking questions about where they are and what they're doing, is just a blind shot in the dark.


 Most people that ask and get advised to eat more aren't advanced


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## The doog (Aug 6, 2013)

The body goes through growth phases.

Lift heavy for 10-16 weeks, back off for a month or two. Eat less carbs, gain back some insulin sensitivity. Recover mentally and physically from the reduced volume and frequency, then smash it again.

Increasing food constantly will work for a powerlifter but in the end you'll just get fat. I did this for years and ended up being big and strong but looking crap. Now it's 2 steps forward and one step back but look and feel better for it.


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## Tomahawk (Dec 24, 2014)

The doog said:


> The body goes through growth phases.
> 
> Lift heavy for 10-16 weeks, back off for a month or two. *Eat less carbs, gain back some insulin sensitivity. *Recover mentally and physically from the reduced volume and frequency, then smash it again.
> 
> Increasing food constantly will work for a powerlifter but in the end you'll just get fat. I did this for years and ended up being big and strong but looking crap. Now it's 2 steps forward and one step back but look and feel better for it.


 How much of a factor is insulin sensitivity? Does it make a big difference?


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## ausmaz (Jul 14, 2014)

Tomahawk said:


> Then it goes to show that telling people to "eat more" without asking questions about where they are and what they're doing, is just a blind shot in the dark.


 Right now? Im sat in the truck at work.....eat more? I certainly can my good man :thumb


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## Fluke82 (Sep 10, 2015)

Tomahawk said:


> How much of a factor is insulin sensitivity? Does it make a big difference?


 So negligible it's irrelevant (I would hazard a guess at 0.2% of overall gains if everything else was in place)


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## The doog (Aug 6, 2013)

Tomahawk said:


> How much of a factor is insulin sensitivity? Does it make a big difference?


 For me its made a huge difference. I've always struggled with my weight since mid-teens and I can't handle high carb. I decrease carbs and drop workout volume and frequency to 4 days a week. This allows me to reduce carbs down to less than 75-100g a day without losing much weight or fullness. After holding there for a month I'll start to add carbs and training days, every couple of weeks until I'm training 6 days and then smash it for 8-10 weeks.

Sort of like a little 6 week cut every 12 weeks or so.

This made a huge difference to me being able to stay lean and grow. When I used to just shovel down more food every time i stuck. I got fat. Real fat!!


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## Major Eyeswater (Nov 2, 2013)

Tomahawk said:


> Then it goes to show that telling people to "eat more" without asking questions about where they are and what they're doing, is just a blind shot in the dark.


 Agreed. It's the bro equivalent of a GP who tells you to take paracetamol, get rest & drink plenty fluids. 90% of the time you will feel fine in a couple of days if you do this


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## Fluke82 (Sep 10, 2015)

Major Eyeswater said:


> Agreed. It's the bro equivalent of a GP who tells you to take paracetamol, get rest & drink plenty fluids. 90% of the time you will feel fine in a couple of days if you do this


 Or the school nurse...

Go in with a snapped leg and she will give you a glass of water and send you back to class!

Fond memories


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## CandleLitDesert (Mar 8, 2015)

andyboro said:


> Anything with hotdogs in its anywhere!
> 
> how does anyone eat those rolls of grey, mushy sh!te?!
> 
> pizza with burgers in the crust however..... awesome!


 Worked out the calories for of these burger pizzas from pizza hut once came in at just under 3600 for the whole thing

Still ate it though


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

There's a really good study linked below that goes a long way to show that provided you are training properly you don't need to be in a significant energy excess to gain muscle at a decent rate.

The study took two groups of elite athletes and put both groups on the same resistance training routine for twelve weeks. One group were made to consume a calorie excess of 500kcals each day and the other group was told to just eat normally.

After 12 weeks the average energy intake for those in the +500 group was much higher than those in the ad libitum group, and while both groups gained roughly the same amount of muscle, the 500+ participants gained considerably more fat. Strength gains were also roughly equal. Some of the participants in the ad libitum group that gained lean tissue best were actually in a very slight (around 40kcal average) energy deficit.

I'm honestly of the opinion that if gains are significantly plateauing and not just dropping off for a short while (long term gains are never linear anyway and there is always some degree of a wave effect to how much a person gains over time) and the person is not in a prolonged energy deficit, has a decent protein intake etc then the problem is much more likely to be that they aren't training right than that they need to increase calories.

There is no established physiological link between a large energy excess and increases in anabolic hormones or any observed upregulation of cellular pathways involved in muscle protein synthesis, so it makes sense from that point of view not to always look for more calories.

Also, here's another thing. According to best estimates (this kind of thing is really hard to measure) 1lb of dry muscle tissue (not counting glycogen content or associated fluid that comes with glycogen storage) contains around 800 calories from the proteins (collagen and non-collagen) and intramuscular fats it contains, but takes around x3 that energy to build it - so to build 1lb of muscle takes around 3200kcals to build. However, the body under natural conditions (not a novice experiencing new gains or chemically assisted) will usually top out it's ability to gain muscle protein at a modest 0.25lbs per week.

That means that provided you are providing the protein required and the training to stimulate the growth you only need to consume roughly 0.25 x 3200 = 800kcals (lets round up to 2000kcals to include the approximate energy cost of four workouts too) above the maintenance for your current body weight per week to build that extra amount of muscle. That works out at 285kcals above maintenance per day as a max need of energy to build as much muscle as you are likely to build.

Remember 0.25lbs of muscle per week may not sound a lot, but 0.25lbs x 52weeks in a year would mean 13lbs of solid muscle gained in a year, which for a natural is probably even more than most non-novices would be able to achieve, so most people would probably max out gains on a lower energy intake.

I think a big part of why people so effortlessly roll off the figure of 500kcal surplus (and increase it of you aren't growing) to gain muscle is because many people also seem to think you can gain 1lb of muscle per week naturally, a claim which is utterly ridiculous and actually quite damaging to realistic expectation management - so therefore gets people following ill thought out advice and doing unnecessary things. Many perpetual bulkers also seem to think their body fat is muscle, something which they only realise isn't so when they actually cut properly and experience some real humility.

Anyway enough of my waffling, here's the study mentioned above - http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/17461391.2011.643923


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## Jordan08 (Feb 17, 2014)

dtlv said:


> There's a really good study linked below that goes a long way to show that provided you are training properly you don't need to be in a significant energy excess to gain muscle at a decent rate.
> 
> The study took two groups of elite athletes and put both groups on the same resistance training routine for twelve weeks. One group were made to consume a calorie excess of 500kcals each day and the other group was told to just eat normally.
> 
> ...


 One of best replies from the day i have joined UKM. Reason being, i am following the approach of small surplus and can see things changing very nicely.


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