# To deadlift, or not to deadlift - that is the question...



## The Sweeney (May 8, 2014)

Ok, so I've been away from training for 10 years and started back at it today.

I've never performed a deadlift in my life and am terrified about hurting my back and or my knees.

I'm 6'4" and have a pretty long back.

Should I start doing dead lifts or give them a swerve?

For the record I box, and use weight training to bulk my size and strength.


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## gsxrthou (Jan 2, 2014)

Yeah smash em


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## StuOwen86 (Apr 13, 2014)

Deadlift. .. I just started lifting with a mate from work and Deadlift and Squats are my favourite exercise. Bench not so but hey gotta stick with the compound lifts. Start light ish with good form back will be fine.


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## SK50 (Apr 7, 2013)

Do it.

You won't find any exercise better for maximal strength in the posterior chain than the deadlift.

Height and bone length doesn't mean you should avoid them - it just alters the biomechanics of the lift - and you will find your own groove with practice.

Watch a few youtube vids of them, start light with 60kg (20kg olympic plates each side), keep a straight back, and you can't go wrong really


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## DiscSupps (Oct 26, 2012)

The Sweeney said:


> Ok, so I've been away from training for 10 years and started back at it today.
> 
> I've never performed a deadlift in my life and am terrified about hurting my back and or my knees.
> 
> ...


You won't hurt your back as long as you perform the exercise properly, just like anything else you do. Included deadlifts if you want to increase size, release endorphins, feel awesome and stay lean!


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## The Sweeney (May 8, 2014)

As a beginner trying to get good form and control, what combination of reps / sets should I start with and should I be aiming to train to failure, or just close to it and up the weight each time?

I take it I should incorporate it into my 'back' and 'pulling' routine which is based around pull ups, rows and some bicep work. Where would deads fall into that lot - start or finish?


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## barndoor5 (Jun 16, 2013)

Deadlift is a lot of fun. mate. Speed, power, intensity.

Here's some motivation:


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## The Sweeney (May 8, 2014)

As far as form is concerned.... is this about right?

Feet lightly wider than shoulder width.

Bar roughly in the middle of the foot, 2 or 3 inches in front of the shins.

Arms straight, grip the bar, keep the armsstraight and taught, lower the hips / slightly bend the knees, head up, back straight, shoulders back, take as much of the weight as possible to fully engage, then lift the bar up and past the knees until the back is straight but not hyper extended?


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## ben123 (Jun 6, 2006)

dead lift is great, i burn out very easy my cns will not handle to much compound work outs i only deadlift once a week max


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## BruceT (Jul 26, 2013)

The Sweeney said:


> As a beginner trying to get good form and control, what combination of reps / sets should I start with and should I be aiming to train to failure, or just close to it and up the weight each time?
> 
> I take it I should incorporate it into my 'back' and 'pulling' routine which is based around pull ups, rows and some bicep work. Where would deads fall into that lot - start or finish?


Deadlift at the start of your session, once warmed up. Why? You're fresh and can give this awesome exercise 100%.

Warm up with just super light weight to get the blood pumping, then try high reps at low weight just to get in to the groove of deadlifting. Depending on overall strength and confidence start out on 40kg total for 12-15 reps. Initially it's all about learning proper form. I'd also keep a low static weight til you're happy with your form. Then add 5-10kg every other session, as you increase weights you can start lowering reps to suit your needs.

There are several deadlifting techniques, check out Scott hermann fitness on YouTube, but ultimately they all work well.

As has been said, it'll be down to which one you find most comfortable.


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## digitalis (Sep 13, 2011)

If you have a longer torso and relatively short limbs like me, try Sumo style.

I have just switched and have fallen in love with deadlifting after avoiding it like the plague for 15 years! Hamstrings, glutes and lower back blowing up already after a week or two of them and not THAT technical either despite what some say.

FTR I consider proper PL style squats as if not more technical.


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## Dirk McQuickly (Dec 29, 2010)

digitalis said:


> If you have along torso and relatively short limbs, try sumo. I have just switched and have fallen in love with deadlifting after avoiding it like the plague for 15 years! Hamstrings, glutes and lower blowing up already after a week or two of them and not THAT technical either despite what some say.


this.


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## The Sweeney (May 8, 2014)

Long arms, long back, normal legs.

What is a sumo dead lift?

Is the dead lift exercise one that you'd do 3-4 sets of 8ish reps once you're experienced, or would you do less sets and reps but more weight?

Is failure the goal?

Sorry for the noob questions.


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## digitalis (Sep 13, 2011)

The Sweeney said:


> Long arms, long back, normal legs.
> 
> What is a sumo dead lift?
> 
> ...


Google it bro, teach a man to fish and all that, it's essentially a wide stance deadlift that offers a different (better) leverage to lifters with certain limb and torso proportions. Try em all and find out. Also google romanian and stiff legged (more hamstring builders but I've seen a few lads shift some big weights SL as their regular DL.)

It's up to you to decide what rep/weight system you want although it's generally accepted that deads are done low rep, high weight.

Given your height I can't imagine you'd be worrying about putting weight on for boxing, which deads will, in your glutes and legs mainly.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

The Sweeney said:


> Is failure the goal?


I would say no - that is where the lift is more likely to become risky, as you will struggle to maintain the correct form. Progression should be the aim i.e. upping the weight each session.

You mentioned above having the bar 2-3 inches from your shin. What you want to do is have bar over the middle of your foot - not just the bit of the foot you see in front of your shin but the whole foot from the heel to your toes. How far the bar will be from your shin will depend how long your feet are (but 3 inches will probably be too far).

I think this is a good video explaining how to do a conventional deadlift:






I'm tempted to suggest trying a conventional deadlift before a sumo one, as I suspect the latter may be harder to learn. I'm a long limbed 6'2" and have no trouble with it, but I have never tried a sumo deadlift so can't really comment on the comparison.

Somebody above mentioned starting at 60 kg. What you really need to do is to start with a weight that is comfortable for you, which will depend how naturally strong you are. If this is lower than 60 kg and you therefore start with smaller diameter weights then you want to use something under the weights either side to raise the bar up to the normal height.

Edit: the safest way to learn how to deadlift would of course be to find a coach who knows what they are doing to show you...


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## The Sweeney (May 8, 2014)

digitalis said:


> Google it bro, teach a man to fish and all that, it's essentially a wide stance deadlift that offers a different (better) leverage to lifters with certain limb and torso proportions. Try em all and find out. Also google romanian and stiff legged (more hamstring builders but I've seen a few lads shift some big weights SL as their regular DL.)
> 
> It's up to you to decide what rep/weight system you want although it's generally accepted that deads are done low rep, high weight.
> 
> Given your height I can't imagine you'd be worrying about putting weight on for boxing, which deads will, in your glutes and legs mainly.


Thanks for the heads up.

Yeah, the boxing weight thing isn't an issue at 6'4 I'm fine or slightly weak at light heavy and want to bulk and be strong at cruiser.

Next back session I'll work out my dead lift technique on light weight, then hit the pull ups, kettle or seated rows and then finish with some bicep work.

I'm natty so my routine will look something like this....

MON: Deadlift, Back, Biceps

TUES: Boxing / rest

WED: Chest, Shoulders, Triceps

THUR: Full rest

FRI: Squats, Back Biceps

SAT: Boxing / rest

SUN: Chest, Shoulder, Triceps

MON: Full rest

Etc, etc..

A four day cycle in effect but splitting deads and squats between the back days.


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## digitalis (Sep 13, 2011)

The Sweeney said:


> Thanks for the heads up.
> 
> Yeah, the boxing weight thing isn't an issue at 6'4 I'm fine or slightly weak at light heavy and want to bulk and be strong at cruiser.
> 
> ...


That's a lot of tris/shoulders considering boxing is heavy on them mate but each to his own, i'd definitely incorporate some rotator cuff work in there if I was you, and make sure you hit rear delts seperate to your rows. I'm recovering from a tweaked rotator now from relying too much on the anterior and I consciously DID work on the rear delts and lots of rows lol. Also, it's what's just ended David Haye's career.

Apart from that solid, if a little intense, routine. I'd keep the squats higher rep, lower weight if you're DL'ing, or even better box squat. It's not as taxing as full squat but you get a lot of the benefits.


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## The Sweeney (May 8, 2014)

Ultrasonic said:


> I would say no - that is where the lift is more likely to become risky, as you will struggle to maintain the correct form. Progression should be the aim i.e. upping the weight each session.
> 
> You mentioned above having the bar 2-3 inches from your shin. What you want to do is have bar over the middle of your foot - not just the bit of the foot you see in front of your shin but the whole foot from the heel to your toes. How far the bar will be from your shin will depend how long your feet are (but 3 inches will probably be too far).
> 
> ...


Gotcha, thanks.

This time round I'm determined not to make the same beginner mistakes I made when I first started 14 years ago - massive over training, not eating enough, not resting enough, going for weight not form, throwing the weights around, killing myself on cardio then hitting the weight all whilst dieting - yep, you name it, I made them all. Ended up feeling ill at 6.5% BF with no gains in strength or size.

Once I was shown the right way, it was a push pull split routine two or three times a week, loads of food and rest and bingo, within 12 months I was transformed. Sometimes you've got to make the mistakes for yourself to really learn them properly.

Like today, first day back - I started on machines just to wake the muscles up, very low weight and just slowly and steadily went through the full range of motion, breathing correctly, pausing for a squeeze at peak contraction, then slowly down again until it was screaming with burn by the 10th rep. Put the weight up a bit for the final set just to remind myself of what if felt like.

I'm going at this steadily, as I also tore an intercostal doing dumbbell shoulder presses because I wanted to impress a friend who's had joined the gym that day - didn't warm up and boom, I was out for 6 weeks.

Vanity is a cruel mistress.


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## bobbydrake (Nov 19, 2012)

Definitely do deadlifts (especially Sumo - I love them). I used to get a bad back fairly regularly until I started weight lifting 2 years ago - its only gone twice since then and only my own stupid fault both times not the weight lifting. I highly recommend deadlifts and squats to most people with bad backs - done with good form they are great for strengthening them!


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## The Sweeney (May 8, 2014)

digitalis said:


> That's a lot of tris/shoulders considering boxing is heavy on them mate but each to his own, i'd definitely incorporate some rotator cuff work in there if I was you, and make sure you hit rear delts seperate to your rows. I'm recovering from a tweaked rotator now from relying too much on the anterior and I consciously DID work on the rear delts and lots of rows lol. Also, it's what's just ended David Haye's career.
> 
> Apart from that solid, if a little intense, routine. I'd keep the squats higher rep, lower weight if you're DL'ing, or even better box squat. It's not as taxing as full squat but you get a lot of the benefits.


What does DL'ing mean? (Sorry, noob alert)

Can you guide me on a rotator cuff specific and rear delts exercises please?

I try and keep my routines to include as many compound movements as possible to keep them short and intense - I don't like lifting for more than about 30 - 40 mins as my intensity drops if I start to spread it out.

For my pushing days, I'd planned on benching, dipping and then doing Arnie style dumbbell shoulder presses, switching between dumbbells and the barbell for the benching each time to mix it up. Maybe some shrugs and front and lateral raises to finish off?


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## BruceT (Jul 26, 2013)

Scott Hermann, YouTube video, rotator cuff exercise.

Google, YouTube etc, loads of instructional videos out there.

edit: DLing is an abbreviated term for deadlifting.


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## digitalis (Sep 13, 2011)

DL = deadlifting.

http://www.warbirdacademy.com/the-pitchers-complete-shoulder-rotator-cuff-prehab-circuit/ - gunna do this myself! Just found it! You don't need all of these IMO but a few 20 min sessions a month will not hurt.

For rear delt isolation, I like cable facepulls, resistance band pull aparts and reverse pec deck flys. They also get worked heavily on one armed db chainsaw rows.

I'd leave the front raises, your ant delt is getting fried as it is what with the boxing as well, that's how imbalances and injuries happen. Vary the shrugs, use a slight lean, behind back etc traps are a big muscle group, and heavily used when punching hence why most all boxers have well developed ones regardless of weight class.

You haven't mentioned abs or obliques. I'd hit them heavy on your non boxing days as powerful core = harder punch, and what boxer doesn't want a harder punch lol. I'd do weighted leg raises on a decline bench, heavy side bends and various barbell twists in a fashion similar to this.





I know for a fact that strong obliques generate more power in pretty much every punch apart from the jab, left hooks and straight rights are markedly more powerful after a few weeks of the above.


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## The Sweeney (May 8, 2014)

Thanks chaps!

Am I on the right track trying to keep my training to as many compound exercises as possible, with the exception of rear delt / rotator cuff isolations etc?


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## digitalis (Sep 13, 2011)

The Sweeney said:


> Thanks chaps!
> 
> Am I on the right track trying to keep my training to as many compound exercises as possible, with the exception of rear delt / rotator cuff isolations etc?


IMO don't get caught up in the compound lifts dogma mate. Go by what works for you and of course what you want out of training.

For example, my bi's lag way behind my tris' genetically. If I didn't hit them hard and often my much better triceps would just outshadow them. Years ago it was a mantra to state "biceps get worked enough on heavy back workouts" when in reality mine didn't apart from my forearms.

BTW, you can train biceps BEFORE back and lose a lot less on back lifts than you may think.


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## The Sweeney (May 8, 2014)

digitalis said:


> IMO don't get caught up in the compound lifts dogma mate. Go by what works for you and of course what you want out of training.
> 
> For example, my bi's lag way behind my tris' genetically. If I didn't hit them hard and often my much better triceps would just outshadow them. Years ago it was a mantra to state "biceps get worked enough on heavy back workouts" when in reality mine didn't apart from my forearms.
> 
> BTW, you can train biceps BEFORE back and lose a lot less on back lifts than you may think.


You sound like me - my tri's responded better than my biceps.

I never took any pictures of me back in the day as I was never very big, but I got some reasonable muscle tone. This picture of me clowning around on one of those Go-Ape thingy m'jigs shows my tris out of proportion to my bi's...


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## Lukeg (Mar 6, 2011)

Im 6'4 deadlifts are fine and I love them...

Squats however are a killer and I dont bother with them


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## SK50 (Apr 7, 2013)

barndoor5 said:


> Deadlift is a lot of fun. mate. Speed, power, intensity.
> 
> Here's some motivation:


Love Pete Rubish's videos in front of the washing machines, guy is a brute


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## barndoor5 (Jun 16, 2013)

He sure knows how to grind them out mate!

His recent gear vids have been good to see too. I cant see him staying natty for long though!


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## a.notherguy (Nov 17, 2008)

The Sweeney said:


> As a beginner trying to get good form and control, what combination of reps / sets should I start with and should I be aiming to train to failure, or just close to it and up the weight each time?
> 
> I take it I should incorporate it into my 'back' and 'pulling' routine which is based around pull ups, rows and some bicep work. Where would deads fall into that lot - start or finish?


Once you've got form nailed, I'd concentrate on lowrep to target the fast twitch muscle fibres which should have a better carryover into boxing power.


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## nWo (Mar 25, 2014)

BruceT said:


> Deadlift at the start of your session, once warmed up. Why? You're fresh and can give this awesome exercise 100%.


Unless you're training specifically for strength and you're only using a few movements per workout, I've never understood this idea. It's such a taxing exercise, if you do it first and tire yourself out, you're then gonna go on to complete the rest of your workout with a complete lack of intensity, focus and strength. If used to aid back development, I think it's much wiser to do your entire back workout first, then use the deadlift or rack pulls as a finisher.


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## BruceT (Jul 26, 2013)

> I've never understood this idea.


Keeping in mind I'm not an intermediate/advanced trainer, I've always felt (no research) that doing something that taxes my CNS so much at the start, allows me to use maximal weight, keep good form.

My reading leads me to think that this is an exercise that elicits more bang for buck over most other exercises. All others in my routine are accessory to DL for me.

I may be wrong, happy to be shown otherwise. That's the reason I do my compounds first.


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## nWo (Mar 25, 2014)

BruceT said:


> Keeping in mind I'm not an intermediate/advanced trainer, I've always felt (no research) that doing something that taxes my CNS so much at the start, allows me to use maximal weight, keep good form.
> 
> My reading leads me to think that this is an exercise that elicits more bang for buck over most other exercises. All others in my routine are accessory to DL for me.
> 
> I may be wrong, happy to be shown otherwise. That's the reason I do my compounds first.


It's definitely a bang for buck exercise and helps to build a nice thick upper and lower back, but even if you do it last and you have to drop the weight, that makes it no less effective at stimulating the muscles. If you're new and using light weight and training nowhere near failure you can get away with it. All I know is, if I pulled 200kg for reps to failure at the start of my workout, I'd be done :lol:

In regards to form, I actually find it easier to control at the end of the workout when my back muscles are already fatigued. Obviously I have to drop the weight considerably, and to the muscles it feels heavy but in terms of balance and generally lugging the weight off the floor, it's of course going to be easier to handle the lighter weight.


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## The Sweeney (May 8, 2014)

INSERT BIG SAD FACE SMILIE HERE >>>>>>

Did back today and was all excited about trying this new dead lift exercise.

I've watched more youtube technique videos than I can shake a stick at thought I'd give it a go.

Fortunately, there were a couple of very big guys in there that were dead lifting, so after watching them for a while, when they finished, I politely explained that I was a beginner (just in case me pipe cleaner physique wasn't a big enough clue) and would one of them mind quickly checking my technique.

They were very helpful and obliged. Apparently my technique was good and after watching a dozen practice reps on the empty bar, they left me to it.

I added a little bit of weight to the bar (20k each side) and gave it a go.

Don't know what to say really. The bar wouldn't go vertically as my knees got in the way so the bar had to go round the knees slightly - this felt horrible, and to avoid this involved arching my back too much.

Even once I'd overcome the knee issue, the entire movement to vertical just felt wrong, unnatural and awkward. Despite keeping my back in perfect form, my chin up looking at the mirror in front of me and using my legs as much as possible until the bar was well above the knee, I could feel my middle to lower back 'telling me' "one wrong move sunshine and the only cardio you'll be doing will be pumping up the tyres on your wheelchair"

Also, my knee started hurting (a lot) and when I stopped I felt like there was cold fluid swirling round under my knee cap.

With most exercises I've done, I can immediately feel exactly where and how it's working and enjoy doing it nice, slow and strict, but the dead lift just felt horrible and awkward.

One of PT's in the gym saw me struggling and I kind of gave him a look that said, "go one, you can tell me...." and he told me that whilst I might not want to hear it, I'm just too tall with too longer legs to do an effective DL.... I'm 6'4" for the record.

Not sure what to make of that.

The long leg thing made sense, as even when I tried with wider foot spacing, my knees were still very much in the way and required the bar to me maneuvered around them.

If I tried not to bend my knee as much to ensure just enough clearance, my back was way too bent and the guy said, "whoa there, you'll kill your back trying that...."

I'll be honest, the experience has made me happy to never try a LD again and find a different, more isolated series of exercises.

I just couldn't find a way to make the move feel natural without bending too far over to clear the knees, or having to work round the knee (a lot).

Plus, I've always been very weary that I have a vulnerable back and knees.

An feedback?


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## Dirk McQuickly (Dec 29, 2010)

If you can do the movement with just the weight of the bar (20kg) you can do the movement. @x20kg plates may just be a bit of a shock to the system. You'd never go up in that increment normally. Try with a couple of 5k's with the spotter bars in a squat rack on the bottom notch and gradually work your way up. I'm tall and skinny with back issues. I find the sumo dl much more forgiving.


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## The Sweeney (May 8, 2014)

Dirk McQuickly said:


> If you can do the movement with just the weight of the bar (20kg) you can do the movement. @x20kg plates may just be a bit of a shock to the system. You'd never go up in that increment normally. Try with a couple of 5k's with the spotter bars in a squat rack on the bottom notch and gradually work your way up. I'm tall and skinny with back issues. I find the sumo dl much more forgiving.


I appreciate what you're saying, but on reflection, the only reason I could do it with just the empty bar was because I could lift it on a slight slope to clear my knees - as soon as weight was added, the bar was only going up dead vertical and the knees were about 4"+ in the way, not just a squeeze past.

I feel like such a turd.


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## Dirk McQuickly (Dec 29, 2010)

The Sweeney said:


> I appreciate what you're saying, but on reflection, the only reason I could do it with just the empty bar was because I could lift it on a slight slope to clear my knees - as soon as weight was added, the bar was only going up dead vertical and the knees were about 4"+ in the way, not just a squeeze past.
> 
> I feel like such a turd.


it's difficult to say without seeing you, and God knows I'm no expert, but it sounds as if you may be starting too far over the bar. When I start I take the slack out of the bar by shrugging and clenching my shoulder blades together. Then there's a slight lean back, so your shins should be vertical. Someone like @martin brown will give you far better advice than me. I didn't dead lift anything for 2 years after doing my back in. I sought out a strength coach and he's had me go from lifting just the bar to 90kgs for reps in a couple of months. I know these are only light weights, but I can feel my back getting stronger and he reckons I'll be at 140 within about 6 months. My advice would be to find a strength coach. The difference they make is unbelievable. Good luck. And don't feel like a turd! It's a technical lift. Some people just get it naturally, but I'm having to work at it.


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## The Sweeney (May 8, 2014)

Dirk McQuickly said:


> it's difficult to say without seeing you, and God knows I'm no expert, but it sounds as if you may be starting too far over the bar. When I start I take the slack out of the bar by shrugging and clenching my shoulder blades together. Then there's a slight lean back, so your shins should be vertical. Someone like @martin brown will give you far better advice than me. I didn't dead lift anything for 2 years after doing my back in. I sought out a strength coach and he's had me go from lifting just the bar to 90kgs for reps in a couple of months. I know these are only light weights, but I can feel my back getting stronger and he reckons I'll be at 140 within about 6 months. My advice would be to find a strength coach. The difference they make is unbelievable. Good luck. And don't feel like a turd! It's a technical lift. Some people just get it naturally, but I'm having to work at it.


Thanks - maybe I'll start at an even lower weight - bar + 10 each side and just get my body used to the movement.

On the other hand, my pull ups (very assisted), T bar rows, DB rows and shrugs all went well.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

The main thing you learned was that 60 kg is way too heavy for you. No shame in this, it was way more than I could manage when I started too. I'll be lazy and quote myself for the next bit:



Ultrasonic said:


> Somebody above mentioned starting at 60 kg. What you really need to do is to start with a weight that is comfortable for you, which will depend how naturally strong you are. *If this is lower than 60 kg and you therefore start with smaller diameter weights then you want to use something under the weights either side to raise the bar up to the normal height.*


Regarding getting the bar round your knees, I know exactly what you mean and I had this issue before getting my form sorted. It's hard to tell without seeing a video but my guess is that in your starting position your bum is too low and your back too vertical, with your shoulders being too far back. Try watching this video I posted before again:


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Below are a few more videos that are well worth watching, covering amongst other things how starting position varies according to limb and torso lengths. They are by Mark Rippetoe, who wrote the highly respected and informative Starting Strength book.


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## The Sweeney (May 8, 2014)

Ultrasonic said:


> The main thing you learned was that 60 kg is way too heavy for you. No shame in this, it was way more than I could manage when I started too. I'll be lazy and quote myself for the next bit:
> 
> Regarding getting the bar round your knees, I know exactly what you mean and I had this issue before getting my form sorted. It's hard to tell without seeing a video but my guess is that in your starting position your bum is too low and your back too vertical, with your shoulders being too far back. Try watching this video I posted before again:


Guilty of too much weight I guess.

That video is excellent and the part at 7m20s was definitely me. I think it was caused by trying to use my legs too much as a natural instinct to protect my lower back.

I can try to bend my knees less, but the concept of having my back not far off parallel to the floor make me fearfor my lower back. I could feel it in my loer back and was conscious that one wrong move and 'boom' there she blows.

Is it a case of starting of very light, maybe 40kg total and repping 15 at a time for a few weeks to awaken and strengthen the lower back before slowly increasing the weight?

I'll be honest, I'm terrified of screwing my lower back and knees.


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## GaryMatt (Feb 28, 2014)

The Sweeney said:


> Ok, so I've been away from training for 10 years and started back at it today.
> 
> I've never performed a deadlift in my life and am terrified about hurting my back and or my knees.
> 
> ...


Rack Pulls.


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## The Sweeney (May 8, 2014)

GaryMatt said:


> Rack Pulls.


Interesting... are they not cheating though and missing some of the main benefits of the full DL?

Forgive my ignorance.


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## IronJohnDoe (Oct 17, 2013)

I did bent over row instead of deadifts for a while but deadlifts are simply the best.


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## GaryMatt (Feb 28, 2014)

The Sweeney said:


> Interesting... are they not cheating though and missing some of the main benefits of the full DL?
> 
> Forgive my ignorance.


I just do them to perfect my traps. Do them, along with bent over flys for the back of your delts. Then do face pulls. Then take the ropes you face pulled with, but them on the seated row, start reasonably lite. Perform what would be a shrug, just toward you, (motion 1) then pull it till your wrist bone touches your nips. If you use gear, it take a bout 5 or 6 works outs, if not 2 or 3 months.

Then people start making comments about you back.

Course, i'm only 5'6.


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## nWo (Mar 25, 2014)

The Sweeney said:


> Interesting... are they not cheating though and missing some of the main benefits of the full DL?
> 
> Forgive my ignorance.


It's all about function mate. I use rack pulls (occasionally replace it with deadlifts just for fun). Why rack pulls? Because I'm using it when training my back. The bottom part of a deadlift is mostly legs, which I'm training on a different day. The top 2/3 of the lift is pretty much all back, so rack pulls just turns it into a pure back exercise by skipping the bottom 1/3.

As for what you were doing wrong on deadlifting... you say you looked up at the mirror the whole time? Don't do that. The tendency when looking up is to dip too low, hence your knees getting in the way. Keep your neck in a straight line with your spine the whole time, don't get too low and you should be good.

Don't listen to that fella at the gym that said you're too tall, that's absolute nonsense. In fact, long-limbed guys like us tend to be good at deadlifts due to increased leverage.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

I'll reply properly later when I have more time, but can I just check you spotted the Mark Rippetoe videos I posted above? I posted them while you were replying to my earlier post so I think they may have been missed...


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## PHMG (Jun 15, 2010)

I've not deadlifted for 4 years. It just isn't suited to some people. Never got on with it and felt there were better ways to stimulate my back.


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## The Sweeney (May 8, 2014)

Ultrasonic said:


> I'll reply properly later when I have more time, but can I just check you spotted the Mark Rippetoe videos I posted above? I posted them while you were replying to my earlier post so I think they may have been missed...


Yes bud, I did - thanks for posting. I replied that I was guilty of using too much leg, in an attempt to take weight off my lower back. The part at 7m20s was definitely 'me'.

Please forgive me - I've always had in my mind the health and safety videos that tell you to lift with your legs not your back, so the dead lift movement which mostly involves your back seems counter intuitive to me and I need to get out of that mindset I guess?

For me to bend my knees less to clear them, I'll have to be bending pretty far over with my back almost parallel to the floor. If I'm to protect my back, I'll have to start very light indeed and build up slowly?

Even practicing in the kitchen with a broom handle resting on a pair of boxes to simulate the correct bar height, having to bend my back that low was really hitting the base of my spine, no matter how much I tried to keep by back straight and pinch my shoulders.

Could it be that I have a VERY weak lower back?


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

The Sweeney said:


> Yes bud, I did - thanks for posting. I replied that I was guilty of using too much leg, in an attempt to take weight off my lower back. The part at 7m20s was definitely 'me'.


Sorry, yes, I saw that reply it was the 5 or so videos I posted after that one I just wanted to check you hadn't missed as we cross posted.

I'll post more this evening rather than struggling on my phone right now.


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## The Sweeney (May 8, 2014)

Ultrasonic said:


> Below are a few more videos that are well worth watching, covering amongst other things how starting position varies according to limb and torso lengths. They are by Mark Rippetoe, who wrote the highly respected and informative Starting Strength book.


Just watched them - fantastic, thanks.

Just feels like I'm putting my back under enormous load and could damage it... is that 'correct'?


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Sorry only just replying, I'm mad busy at the moment. Some quick comments...

Glad the videos were helpful. I had pretty much the same concerns as you when I started to deadlift, and also made what sound like the same errors as you to begin with regards to trying to keep my back too vertical and therefore awkwardly having to move the bar around my knees. It was videos like these, followed by then reading the Starting Strength book (you can get the eBook for about £6.50 and read it on any PC) and watching the associated DVD, that I used to teach myself how to deadlift. But let me make it clear I am not any sort of qualified coach, my knowledge is purely from these and similar sources. If you can find someone who knows what they are doing to show you what to do this is the ideal. With that in mind, some other thoughts...



The Sweeney said:


> Just feels like I'm putting my back under enormous load and could damage it... is that 'correct'?


No. Absolutely not. Use common sense, if it feels like that walk away. But if you're taking that from your first attempt it felt like that because the weight was way too heavy, your back was nothing like straight, and your body was rightly telling you that you were in danger of damaging yourself. You also commented in your first post about the movement feeling awkward. This was another indication that you weren't doing it right. The correct way to do it is the optimal way to lift, and will feel 'right'. But you must start with a weight that is light enough for you to be able to do this.

Now I'll turn to your health and safety related questions. Standard advice includes keeping a weight close to you and to 'lift with your legs not your back'. You do both of these in a correct deadlift. The bar path should be vertical and right above the centre of your foot. During the lift your back should stay 'straight', with your legs doing all the hard work whilst the muscles in your lower back holding the back solid but NOT contracting in a way to change the shape of your back. (The opposite would be to keep your legs straight, round your back to reach the ground and then strighten your back to lift the object up, which is a terrible idea.)

The final confusion relates to the difference between a 'straight' and a vertical back. Yes lifting with a vertical back will minimise the strain on your lower back but this isn't achievable for the vast majority of real world lifting situations. The always needs to be some degree of forward lean to your back, at which point what matters is keeping it 'straight'. This isn't ruler straight of course, but maintaing the natural curvature of the spine, with particularly the inward curve of the lumber spine (strictly lumbar extension I think). The deadlift is a controlled lift to allow you to train the muscles of your lower back (the spinal erectors) to hold your back in this correct position. But to do this you must train with an appropriate weight, which means one where you can keep your back in the correct position. If your back rounds, it is too heavy. It will be your lower back that limits how heavy you should lift.

Like you, I am not a natural deadlifter, I have long legs and a short torso, albeit mitigated a little by having longer arms. My genetic build is also that of a beanpole! So when I started I had a very weak lower back. Deadlifting has improved this. This has made lifting in my day to day lift much safer so I view deadlifting as a good thing from a health and safety point of view.

Having said all this some people really can be ill suited to a deadlift such that a sumo deadlift is an appropriate substitution. But to find this out you first of all need to try deadlifting with the correct form. As hopefully the videos I posted have shown you, the very fact that you are tall is not reason to not deadlift, it is relative lengths of legs, torso and arms.


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## The Sweeney (May 8, 2014)

Thank you sincerely for taking the time to post such a detailed and thorough response, I DO appreciate it.

As an experiment just now, whilst rushing around getting the kids ready for school, I asked my wife to take a quick snap shot of me 'assuming the position' I would if I were to attempt a dead lift.

Imaginary bar against my shins, bar directly below the scapula, arms slightly tilting rearwards, knees not bent too much to create an obstacle, yet look at my back - thats got wheelchair written all over it!!!










I felt I was absolutely as straight as I could be without lowering my ass - which looks like the only solution to prevent that terribly arched back.

I can't raise my shoulders any more as I wouldn't be able to reach the bar, so from what I can see, lowering my ass is the only solution?

However, lowering my ass will bend my knees more and create the knee obstacle issue.

I'm obviously missing something, so please feel free point out what I'm sure are several errors.

I also expect to see that picture in the hall of fame of 'How not to do it'!!!


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Well, as you correctly spotted that would be a horrible position for your back to be in to try and lift! Hopefully someone else more experienced may offer up some advice having see the picture but here are my thoughts...

I think what is putting you off now is worrying about your knees being too far forward. You knees will be in front of the bar at the start of the lift, but will move back at the start of the lift allowing the bar to go straight up. So, from where you are you want to focus on bringing your chest up while contracting the muscles of your back. And it is chest up rather than craning your neck up, as I'mNotAPervert! mentioned above. This will cause your bum to go down and your knees to come forward, but only by as much as you need to get your back in the right position.

One thing you may find you have an issue with is hamstring flexibility. As you try to get into this position will likely feel your hamstrings being stretched, and if they are too tight this could prevent you reaching the right starting position.


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## The Sweeney (May 8, 2014)

Ultrasonic said:


> Well, as you correctly spotted that would be a horrible position for your back to be in to try and lift! Hopefully someone else more experienced may offer up some advice having see the picture but here are my thoughts...
> 
> I think what is putting you off now is worrying about your knees being too far forward. You knees will be in front of the bar at the start of the lift, but will move back at the start of the lift allowing the bar to go straight up. So, from where you are you want to focus on bringing your chest up while contracting the muscles of your back. And it is chest up rather than craning your neck up, as I'mNotAPervert! mentioned above. This will cause your bum to go down and your knees to come forward, but only by as much as you need to get your back in the right position.
> 
> One thing you may find you have an issue with is hamstring flexibility. As you try to get into this position will likely feel your hamstrings being stretched, and if they are too tight this could prevent you reaching the right starting position.


Thanks for that.

I've started doing leg presses again - nothing heavy, starting at 100kg and I can feel my quads and hams burning equally, so I'll keep doing that for a few weeks to get some leg strength / flexibility back into the equation.

Obviously I can't raise my chest, as my arms won't reach the bar, so I guess it's down to bending the knees more.

I really need a pro to get me in the correct position whilst at the gym.

Anyone else, please feel free to chime in.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

The Sweeney said:


> Obviously I can't raise my chest, as my arms won't reach the bar...


I didn't explain that very well. 'Raise the chest' is what Mark Rippetoe always says, but I guess it's more a question of bringing your chest forwards whilst your shoulders stay where they are. Essentially you need to get your back down into a flat position, and doing so will result in your chest facing more forwards rather than down.


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## IGotTekkers (Jun 6, 2012)

I recently gave up deadlifts and glad to see the back of them. 2 sets and im ready to talk to the toilet. And leaves me feeling like a recovering smack head for about 8 hours after. Never really got much from them anyway to be honest other than a burning forearm.


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## big (Sep 14, 2004)

Looking at the picture, I have some comments:

Get your ar5e down and back. Allow your knees to come forward a bit more. When you pull, pull back... this will resolve the knee obstacle.

You can see your shoulders further forward than the bar. As soon as you lift like that, the weight will pull your body forward and you will be lifting with lower back and putting yourself in a weak position. Getting your ar5e down and sitting back will resolve this.

The bar needs to be over mid-foot and the middle of your shoulder needs to be over this pretty much as directly as possible.

Just IMO.


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## BruceT (Jul 26, 2013)

IGotTekkers said:


> Never really got much from them anyway to be honest other than a burning forearm.


Explains it, you were doing single arm deadlifts!


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## IGotTekkers (Jun 6, 2012)

The Sweeney said:


> Thank you sincerely for taking the time to post such a detailed and thorough response, I DO appreciate it.
> 
> As an experiment just now, whilst rushing around getting the kids ready for school, I asked my wife to take a quick snap shot of me 'assuming the position' I would if I were to attempt a dead lift.
> 
> ...


Bic that head you'll be the spit of Walter white :lol: ;


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## Dirk McQuickly (Dec 29, 2010)

I think I said something similar to this earlier in this thread, and looking at the picture I do think you're too far forward. Lean back a bit (you won't fall over, I promise). Arse down, when trying to get your chest up, it may be more helpful to concentrate on your shoulder blades. Squeeze them together. This will stop your back from arching. If you feel your shoulder blades coming apart and your back arching as you lift, drop the weigh a bit. Just before you lift, shrug just enough to get the slack out of the bar, squeeze your shoulder blades together, big breath into your stomach and tense your core and lift. Keep everything tight. If it's not, lower the weight and try again. When you've found a weight you can do all this with, then you can start thinking about upping the weight again. Again, as I said earlier, seek out a strength coach. A hairy arsed strong ****er who knows what he's doing and is standing in front of you is invaluable. As is Mark Rippetoe's writing!


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## The Sweeney (May 8, 2014)

I guess my knees will end up almost 90 degrees....?


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## Dirk McQuickly (Dec 29, 2010)

The Sweeney said:


> I guess my knees will end up almost 90 degrees....?


these angles are different for everyone, it's dependent on your physiology.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

My guess from the photo is that the angle will still be rather more than 90 degrees. The change I'd suggest focusing on is to contract all of the muscles in your back so that your back is straight. Provided the bar is still over the middle of your foot and your shoulder a bit forwards of the bar then wherever your knees and bum are is right for you.


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## The Sweeney (May 8, 2014)

Ultrasonic said:


> My guess from the photo is that the angle will still be rather more than 90 degrees. The change I'd suggest focusing on is to contract all of the muscles in your back so that your back is straight. Provided the bar is still over the middle of your foot and your shoulder a bit forwards of the bar then wherever your knees and bum are is right for you.


Thanks - I'll try again with a straight back and maybe post another picture...


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## Bataz (Jan 21, 2014)

Just out of interest why as a boxer do you want to "bulk"? I used to fight and know many other fighters and have never, ever come across one wanting to bulk. Just curious.


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## The Sweeney (May 8, 2014)

Bataz said:


> Just out of interest why as a boxer do you want to "bulk"? I used to fight and know many other fighters and have never, ever come across one wanting to bulk. Just curious.


I'm in between weights.

I can't make light heavy without being too weak, yet am light for a cruiser weight with insufficient power. Also my core strength is poor.

I guess it's a bit like when Evander Holyfield moved up from Cruiserweight to Heavy weight - he followed bodybuilding techniques almost to the letter to achieve his goal.

Plus, I'm fed up of being 'thin', especially at 6'4", so even if it's just out of vanity, I just fancy bulking up, increasing my strength and looking a little better.

I box for sport and adore it, but it's not all consuming - I'm too old and not good enough! :laugh:


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## The Sweeney (May 8, 2014)

Excuse the boxer shorts, but I wanted to get a better view of positions without trouser legs flapping in the way.

This is as straight as I could get my back and actually felt like I was hyper extending. (Obviously not)

My hands aren't over the centre of my feet, but even without that, my knees are massively in the way and with my hands moving rearwards to over the foot centre, it would make the knee obstacle even worse.

Does that look right, as I can see it being a big leg exercise for most of the lift based on how it felt - just holding that pose whilst the picture was taken was making my quads burn a little!

Or is it all still wrong?


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## Sway12 (Oct 29, 2013)

just lol @ these images. Upload a video from the gym


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## The Sweeney (May 8, 2014)

Sway12 said:


> just lol @ these images. Upload a video from the gym


That's right, make fun of the fat kid! I have feelings you know! :laugh:


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## iamyou (Oct 29, 2012)

The Sweeney said:


> Excuse the boxer shorts, but I wanted to get a better view of positions without trouser legs flapping in the way.
> 
> This is as straight as I could get my back and actually felt like I was hyper extending. (Obviously not)
> 
> ...


Looks like your hips need to be higher. Foot position looks a little off too. Try having them parallel and a more apart


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## The Sweeney (May 8, 2014)

iamyou said:


> Looks like your hips need to be higher. Foot position looks a little off too. Try having them parallel and a more apart


Thanks, I'll give it a go.

Wouldn't raising my hips make my backe even more horizontal?


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

The Sweeney said:


> Wouldn't raising my hips make my backe even more horizontal?


Yes it would but this doesn't mean it is wrong to do this.

As iamyou said I think you want your feet pointing more forwards, and I think your imaginary bar needs to be further back (over the middle of your whole foot, heel to toe). Here's another video to give you the idea:






I do think all of this is easier when you have a real bar to grab hold of by the way!

The way you have your feet pointing out does though slightly make me wonder if flexibility may be an issue here?


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## The Sweeney (May 8, 2014)

Ultrasonic said:


> The way you have your feet pointing out does though slightly make me wonder if flexibility may be an issue here?


Very probably.

I'll be training my back tomorrow morning and will give it another go.

Having my back almost horizontal makes me think I'll be struggling to lift the empty bar without killing my back! Or maybe as Mark Riptoe said in his second theory video - I'll just be a sh1tty deadlifter! I did LOL at that!


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## The Sweeney (May 8, 2014)

I just found this very helpful also...


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

How did you get on today?

I just skimmed through that video you posted above. I've seen some of his other videos and he generally sounds like he knows what he's talking about, but I'm pretty sure most people would agree that the way he repeatedly had that trainee putting the bar down way in front of his feet is very wrong.


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## The Sweeney (May 8, 2014)

Tried again today and it all went to rat sh1t.

Did everything I could to keep my back straight and shoulders pinched, but my lower back was still screaming, as were my quads and knees - and that's with only a 10kg plate each end.

Just felt totally awkward and unnatural. I'm going to have to give it a swerve until such time as I have the luxury of someone to teach me properly like in those videos.

However, as well as flexibility being very suspect, I don't think my knees are up to it. Just doing a few 100kg leg presses the other day has left me with big bruises above each knee cap FFS!


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## Monkey skeleton (Jul 8, 2012)

I'd try doing a couple of high rep sets with just the bar at the end of your workout, through repetition you should begin to find your natural bar path. I wonder if you're having trouble due to weakness in your lower back etc, and even struggle to engage the appropriate muscle for the lift. Either way practicing the movement should help.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

The Sweeney said:


> Just felt totally awkward and unnatural. I'm going to have to give it a swerve until such time as I have the luxury of someone to teach me properly like in those videos.


Probably a wise plan. My guess is that your ongoing issues are due to a combination of poor hamstring flexibility (which you could work on), and still using too much weight. A professional trainer should be able to see if these really are the issue though.

I've never used a leg press, but bruising above your knees can't be normal! Or good.

On an entirely different tack, have you tried searching for weight training routines specifically aimed at boxers? There's a fair chance that deadlifting may not be considered very helpful for your ultimate aims.


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## The Sweeney (May 8, 2014)

Ultrasonic said:


> Probably a wise plan. My guess is that your ongoing issues are due to a combination of poor hamstring flexibility (which you could work on), and still using too much weight. A professional trainer should be able to see if these really are the issue though.
> 
> I've never used a leg press, but bruising above your knees can't be normal! Or good.
> 
> On an entirely different tack, have you tried searching for weight training routines specifically aimed at boxers? There's a fair chance that deadlifting may not be considered very helpful for your ultimate aims.


It's weird as my legs were always my strong point back int he good old days, where at my best whilst using the 45 degree incline leg press slider machine, I could 6-8 reps 250kg which IIRC was 6 plates a side. My quads were, and to a degree still are pretty big, although not in any way shape or form strong.

Hamstring flexibility is definitely an issue.

Most weight training for boxing is high rep arms and shoulders work.

The reason I'm bodybuilding is to move up in weight, size and strength as I'm in between weight classes. At 6'4" I'm too thin and weak at light heavy weight, but I'm not big or powerful enough at cruiser weight, so just like Evander Holyfield and David Haye did, am turning to BB to increase my size, strength and ultimately my weight. Plus I'm fed up being the 'tall skinny one' and my vanity has taken over. Oh, and it's bloody marvellous to be eating 3k-4k calories a day of clean wholesome food!

Had a killer shoulder, chest and triceps session in the gym this morning though - my medial delts were about to explode at the end of my DB side raises.


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## *Ryan* (Nov 5, 2013)

Been reading your progress mate well done! Elliot hulse is worth a mention on youtube who goes through in detail on DLs. Someone once told me, imagine as though something is resting on your lower back whilst your doing the movement, this then makes you visualise keeping your back in a straight postion. The hardest part for me is getting from the ground to my knees, after that plain sailing. In that sense, i like rack pulls as i can lift more weight and takes out the leg element.

Good luck mate


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## The Sweeney (May 8, 2014)

*Ryan* said:


> Been reading your progress mate well done! Elliot hulse is worth a mention on youtube who goes through in detail on DLs. Someone once told me, imagine as though something is resting on your lower back whilst your doing the movement, this then makes you visualise keeping your back in a straight postion. The hardest part for me is getting from the ground to my knees, after that plain sailing. In that sense, i like rack pulls as i can lift more weight and takes out the leg element.
> 
> Good luck mate


Cheers.

I stumbled upon almost by accident what I hope will be the kindergarten of future deadlifts today whist at the gym doing a back and biceps workout.

The gym was packed and I was getting impatient to do some narrow grip rowing and remembered back to the good old days, so sat on the floor in front of a low pulley and knocked out four sets of seated cable rows. I was conscious that not only was I getting a super stretch, but was laos having to keep my back straight and strict. Hopefully a month or two doing these will help train my back into keeping straight under load and strengthen it in general ready for when I can tackle the DL with some guidance.


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## Dirk McQuickly (Dec 29, 2010)

The Sweeney said:


> Cheers.
> 
> I stumbled upon almost by accident what I hope will be the kindergarten of future deadlifts today whist at the gym doing a back and biceps workout.
> 
> The gym was packed and I was getting impatient to do some narrow grip rowing and remembered back to the good old days, so sat on the floor in front of a low pulley and knocked out four sets of seated cable rows. I was conscious that not only was I getting a super stretch, but was laos having to keep my back straight and strict. Hopefully a month or two doing these will help train my back into keeping straight under load and strengthen it in general ready for when I can tackle the DL with some guidance.


one of the problems I had with deadliest is that as the weights got heavier my upper back rounded. I'm currently doing lots of other upper back work to strengthen it - pull downs, seated rows, weighted pull ups and incline shrugs.


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## Rykard (Dec 18, 2007)

Dirk McQuickly said:


> one of the problems I had with deadliest is that as the weights got heavier my upper back rounded. I'm currently doing lots of other upper back work to strengthen it - pull downs, seated rows, weighted pull ups and incline shrugs.


i read something last night (t-nation I think) that said as the weights went up if you didn't do specific core work the back would round...


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## Dirk McQuickly (Dec 29, 2010)

Rykard said:


> i read something last night (t-nation I think) that said as the weights went up if you didn't do specific core work the back would round...


yeah, that's exactly what's been happening. I know I keep banging on about it in this thread, but it's one of the ways a strength coach is priceless. It was him who noticed it and he tweaks my programme every few weeks as he notices certain parts of the lift getting stronger as others begin to show weakness.


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## Tassotti (Feb 27, 2011)

The Sweeney said:


> Tried again today and it all went to rat sh1t.
> 
> Did everything I could to keep my back straight and shoulders pinched, but my lower back was still screaming, as were my quads and knees - and that's with only a 10kg plate each end.
> 
> ...


Don't give up yet.

It does take a while to get it right. Once youdo and repeat enough times, it will become second nature.

In your last pic, your lower back is fine. Your neck is overextended. Keep it in a more natural position.

Deadlift setup should feel uncomfortable.


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## Rykard (Dec 18, 2007)

The Sweeney said:


> Tried again today and it all went to rat sh1t.
> 
> Did everything I could to keep my back straight and shoulders pinched, but my lower back was still screaming, as were my quads and knees - and that's with only a 10kg plate each end.
> 
> ...


core core core - make sure you are giving this enough work .. planks,. woodchoppers and that sort of thing


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## *Ryan* (Nov 5, 2013)

The Sweeney said:


> Cheers.
> 
> I stumbled upon almost by accident what I hope will be the kindergarten of future deadlifts today whist at the gym doing a back and biceps workout.
> 
> The gym was packed and I was getting impatient to do some narrow grip rowing and remembered back to the good old days, so sat on the floor in front of a low pulley and knocked out four sets of seated cable rows. I was conscious that not only was I getting a super stretch, but was laos having to keep my back straight and strict. Hopefully a month or two doing these will help train my back into keeping straight under load and strengthen it in general ready for when I can tackle the DL with some guidance.


No probs, ive just had a thought actually, do you access to a trap bar in your gym? this will remove where your hands need to go on the barbell and gives you better access to work on your form.


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## Sway12 (Oct 29, 2013)

about to go deadlift. Cant wait.


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## bigchickenlover (Jul 16, 2013)

Deadlift tomorrow il try and get someone to film it and post it in ere! Mine isn't the best form in the world.. It never feels nice to Deadlift really but we love it!!

Anyone fancies a go il even train in my Myprotein vest!!


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## The Sweeney (May 8, 2014)

Thanks chaps.

Yes, we've got what I assume is a trap bar... but the grip feels too wide for me - the arms move up and down vertically like wheelbarrow handles, but my arms spread out too far from my side and I feel like I should be pulling them diagonally upwards, where they only want to go vertically so feels awkward - not as close as BD shrugs etc.

Core is the key I think.

I dont know the 'trade names' for some of the core exercises though, any links to a few that would really help?

Many thanks.

I guess 10 years slumped over an office desk with bad posture are catching up on me and need reversing, pronto!!


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## Tassotti (Feb 27, 2011)

I don't think core is the key here (although it never hurts to have a strong one)

You need to train the muscles of your back to get it into 'flexion'

Do supermans a few times a week. This will enable you to put your back in flexion even whilst standing.

When setting up for the deadlift, imagine you are performing a superman when bent over.

This will correct your issues.


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## Dirk McQuickly (Dec 29, 2010)

the trap bar deadlift is a great exercise. I'd consider it if I was you - http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/most.../the_trap_bar_deadlift


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## Rykard (Dec 18, 2007)

The Sweeney said:


> Thanks chaps.
> 
> Yes, we've got what I assume is a trap bar... but the grip feels too wide for me - the arms move up and down vertically like wheelbarrow handles, but my arms spread out too far from my side and I feel like I should be pulling them diagonally upwards, where they only want to go vertically so feels awkward - not as close as BD shrugs etc.
> 
> ...


core exercises - planks various, mountain climbers, wood choppers


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## The Sweeney (May 8, 2014)

Rykard said:


> core exercises - planks various, mountain climbers, wood choppers


Scurries off to google....


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

The Sweeney said:


> ...so sat on the floor in front of a low pulley and knocked out four sets of seated cable rows. I was conscious that not only was I getting a super stretch, but was laos having to keep my back straight and strict. Hopefully a month or two doing these will help train my back into keeping straight under load and strengthen it in general ready for when I can tackle the DL with some guidance.


When you've tried to deadlift, which part of your back was it that you felt struggling? I'd assumed it was your lower back (spinal errectors)? If so the above exercise won't really help I'm afraid, and rack pulls as suggested by others above is probably a better bet. If on the other hand the issue was your upper back then rowing exercises may well help  .


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## Trevor McDonald (Mar 30, 2010)

Don't know if this has been mentioned, but is it true it widens your waist? I do love deadlifting. @ConP


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## MRSTRONG (Apr 18, 2009)

Mey said:


> Don't know if this has been mentioned, but is it true it widens your waist? I do love deadlifting. @ConP


only due to building hip muscles but squats do that too .


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## The Sweeney (May 8, 2014)

Ultrasonic said:


> When you've tried to deadlift, which part of your back was it that you felt struggling? I'd assumed it was your lower back (spinal errectors)? If so the above exercise won't really help I'm afraid, and rack pulls as suggested by others above is probably a better bet. If on the other hand the issue was your upper back then rowing exercises may well help  .


My entire back was burning and I instinctively felt that if I really put any significant effort in, something was going to give way - I guess lower rather than upper, but is was generally very back straining top to bottom.

My knees also felt very weak and hurt and my quads burnt badly.

Generally though, my entire back and knees.

I feel I have very vulnerable knees anyway and suffer twinges and the odd shooting pain down my lower legs from time to time just getting about.

I'm a crock! :lol:


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## ConP (Aug 18, 2013)

Mey said:


> Don't know if this has been mentioned, but is it true it widens your waist? I do love deadlifting. @ConP


Sure it builds the core up so in turn the waist goes up a tad.


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## The Sweeney (May 8, 2014)

I strained my intercostal muscles on the heavy bag whilst boxing training the other day leaving me with that muscular pain that kills if you cough, sneeze or laugh, so have had to ease up on some of my training which kinda sucks.

I was in the gym this afternoon doing some light cardio and noticed an Olympic bar resting peacefully on the power rack with nobody to keep it company....

Hmmm... determined to give my back at least some sort of workout, I did a load of high volume, low intensity machine work, deliberately trying to isolate the lats and not strain my sore 'sides' which I actually quite enjoyed - 15 to 20 reps, very slow and controlled, full stretch and range of motion etc - made a nice change from the usual gut wrenching effort.

Aaaaaaaanyway... I wandered over the the power rack, realised that the bar was just under my knee level with the rack on it's lowest setting and thought I'd have a go at some DL's albeit without the lowest part of the movement or legs.

I was pleasantly surprised how it felt. Face forwards, shoulders pinched, back straight, up and down in a controlled and steady fashion. It was only 50kg so lucky there wasn't a breeze to blow the bar away whilst I wasn't looking, but it gave me a feel for the motion. As it was light, I was able to look sideways at the mirror, and indeed my back was pretty straight. After 10 slow and controlled reps, I could feel a general all over burn throughout my back from top to bottom, flaring out a little wider up top.

On one of the sets I must have put the bar down with a slightly arched back as I felt the lower back strain I'd felt previously which satisfied me that my form up until then had been reasonable and taught me what not to do with a weight that wasn't heavy enough to cause an injury.

After 4 light sets to 10, I tried to replicate this but from the floor where I soon realised I've just not got the strength or flexibility in my quads or glutes to get low enough to keep a straight back - this might come in the future with more work.

So I guess my question is.... is it ok to do these power rack dead lifts if the bar is only lowering to just below my knee? Will I still see the back results and benefits, or am I wasting my time?

It kind of just clicked into place a little and felt much more natural not having to lower the bar any further, yet still seemed to hit my back in a 'good way' with a nice burn but no 'strain' if that makes sense?

Thoughts?


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## Dirk McQuickly (Dec 29, 2010)

it's a partial deadlift. Good for back strength. You could get used to that movement, then split the difference between the lowest point on the rack and the floor by starting from a block, then eventually from the floor.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Dirk McQuickly said:


> it's a partial deadlift. Good for back strength. You could get used to that movement, then split the difference between the lowest point on the rack and the floor by starting from a block, then eventually from the floor.


I agree. I think it would also be worth specifically working on hamstring flexibility to aid this pregression.


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## The Sweeney (May 8, 2014)

Dirk McQuickly said:


> it's a partial deadlift. Good for back strength. You could get used to that movement, then split the difference between the lowest point on the rack and the floor by starting from a block, then eventually from the floor.





Ultrasonic said:


> I agree. I think it would also be worth specifically working on hamstring flexibility to aid this pregression.


Is it worth me doing these partials though?

What should I be aiming for in terms of sets and reps and should I work to failure?

What are the benefits of DL's - i.e what will be the visual improvement?


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## Dirk McQuickly (Dec 29, 2010)

I'd say it's worth you doing them. For the reasons above. As a stop gap on the road to a dl, and to make your back stronger. Reps wise, I'd keep them low, with heavy weights. But someone more qualified than me can give you better advise there. The benefits of deadlifting are enormous. They work (and therefore make stronger) almost your whole body. If you have a weak back and you learn to deadlift properly you'll get a strong back. Visually I'd expect to see improvements in your quads, glutes, lats and traps.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

The Sweeney said:


> What are the benefits of DL's - i.e what will be the visual improvement?


I thought you were primarily concerned about weight gain for your boxing rather than aesthetics?

Either way, deadlifts (and even more so squats) are key exercises for natural trainees due to the hormonal response they can produce, provided sufficient intensity, reps and sets are employed*. For people whose back strength limits the ability to squat, deadlifts are also important to help squating. Both exercises recruit a huge number of muscles (I've seen 200 estimated for squats) and therefore can have a hypertrophic effect beyond the most obvious muscles. Muscles stimulated by other exercises in the same session will also benefit from the hormonal response of squats and deadlifts.

*I've been reading up on just this topic this afternoon. This needs to be at least 4 sets (3x10 is no good, 4x6 and 4x10 is, see here), of I think at least 6 reps.


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## solidss (Nov 9, 2013)

Ultrasonic said:


> I would say no - that is where the lift is more likely to become risky, as you will struggle to maintain the correct form. Progression should be the aim i.e. upping the weight each session.
> 
> You mentioned above having the bar 2-3 inches from your shin. What you want to do is have bar over the middle of your foot - not just the bit of the foot you see in front of your shin but the whole foot from the heel to your toes. How far the bar will be from your shin will depend how long your feet are (but 3 inches will probably be too far).
> 
> ...


This. That's where I failed and wrecked my back...no deads and squats for me anymore.

Avoid overdoing it, try first with lighter weight even if you can lift heavier, correct form is the key. And concentrate on the exercise, don't anyone or anything distract you!


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## The Sweeney (May 8, 2014)

Ultrasonic said:


> I thought you were primarily concerned about weight gain for your boxing rather than aesthetics?


Yes, that's correct, but my fragile ego needs me to see visual benefits as well as feel them if you know what I mean.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

The Sweeney said:


> Yes, that's correct, but my fragile ego needs me to see visual benefits as well as feel them if you know what I mean.


 

Nothing wrong with wanting to see improvements, I certainly do!


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Ultrasonic said:


> Either way, deadlifts (and even more so squats) are key exercises for natural trainees due to the hormonal response they can produce, provided sufficient intensity, reps and sets are employed.


I've been doing a bit more reading and I should probably point out that whilst it is clear that exercises like the squat and deadlift can significantly raise levels of testosterone and HGH, these changes are short lived and it is at least debatable whether these have a significant impact on muscle hypertrophy. Here is one fairly recent study for instance:

http://download.springer.com/static/pdf/587/art%253A10.1007%252Fs00421-011-2246-z.pdf?auth66=1401952207_cd43a82e02c0fffef9caca939d902a9b&ext=.pdf

Personally I am always mindful of the fact from what I can gather pre-steroid era bodybuilders followed routines with regular heavy squats and deadlifts, rather than more modern body-part split routines, and so for now I still think this the way to go for natural trainees. (Plenty more homework for me to do on this subject though!)


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

Ultrasonic said:


> I've been doing a bit more reading and I should probably point out that whilst it is clear that exercises like the squat and deadlift can significantly raise levels of testosterone and HGH, these changes are short lived and it is at least debatable whether these have a significant impact on muscle hypertrophy. Here is one fairly recent study for instance:
> 
> http://download.springer.com/static/pdf/587/art%253A10.1007%252Fs00421-011-2246-z.pdf?auth66=1401952207_cd43a82e02c0fffef9caca939d902a9b&ext=.pdf
> 
> Personally I am always mindful of the fact from what I can gather pre-steroid era bodybuilders followed routines with regular heavy squats and deadlifts, rather than more modern body-part split routines, and so for now I still think this the way to go for natural trainees. (Plenty more homework for me to do on this subject though!)


Yeah, another study here also suggesting that acute rises in hormones like test and GH around the workout don't contribute to hypertrophy - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2885075/ .

Many people would raise an eyebrow and not believe it but it's important to realise that hormones like test and GH are not just about anabolism, they are also about anti-catabolism and fuel substrate selection - and in the workout and immediate pwo workout condition the main role they provide is not to stimulate growth (is signalling proteins like mTOR and cAMP that do that job) but rather the control fuel selection until the body is fed.

There is a bit of a movement in some quarters saying that the compound exercises are important for elevating these hormones because the hormonal effect helps other muscles grow, and also to delay post workout nutrition to allow these hormones to build... but the problem is this misses the point of what these hormones do in this particular situation.

Deadlifts and the like are awesome exercises for hypertrophy simply because they work a large number of muscles in a single exercise but not because of hormonal stimulation.


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## The Sweeney (May 8, 2014)

I *think* I'm going to start from scratch with all this BB lark and have a look at the 5x5 strength program.

I've studied it carefully over the last couple of days and feel that at least in the short term it's probably the best bet for me.

Even if I start with an empty bar just concentrating on form, the extra flexibility and core strength gains will help me no end and allow me to back on the muscular mass and strength I'm searching for.

Full squats and DL's beckon.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

dtlv said:


> Yeah, another study here also suggesting that acute rises in hormones like test and GH around the workout don't contribute to hypertrophy - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2885075/.


I've just had chance to properly read through that paper. It's excellent, thanks very much for the link.


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

Ultrasonic said:


> I've just had chance to properly read through that paper. It's excellent, thanks very much for the link.


No probs. I agree, pretty robust study that one. Definitely adds something valuable to the mix when it comes to understanding the process of adaptation to resistance exercise.


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## dann19900 (Dec 29, 2012)

I'm 6,4 aswell and always struggled with deadlift/squat aswell. I deadlift 220 for 3 reps now but normally I just do rack pulls instead. Same with squats, either do 3/4 rom or don't bother atall. I ****ed myself off for 4-5 months trying to get the form right but they still just don't feel like natural movements. Up to you but I don't personally think its worth it unless you want to do comps or whatever


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## Big_Al13 (May 2, 2013)

Simple answer in my opinion. Yes you should deadlift.

In my experience, I've had to concentrate on the isolation exercises to stop my form going all to hell when going heavier. Facepulls etc, a lot of work on general all over back exercises.

As others have said, being tall makes deadlift a better exercise for us, and is what we should naturally be good at, but it has a good benefit to everyone regardless of size imo.

Squats however can go to hell, I'm crap at them, and hit a wall at 130kg. :cursing:


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## The Sweeney (May 8, 2014)

I'm going to work at this as my intention is to do the starting strength or strong lift program to build some power, and density - looking pack on a stone of lean muscle and lose about half a stone of fat so need to find some beef. I'm eating like horse, so just need the proper training regime to stick to and work at.

I like numbers and progress analysis, so something like this might be idea.

But - will require me to get my head round deadlifts and squats PDQ!!!


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## The Sweeney (May 8, 2014)

UPDATE:

Just thought I'd get back to this thread.

I finally got my form correct on the dead lift and learned the movement.

By adding 2.5kg to the bar every session my weight has increased well and the other night I hit a PB of 150kg for 5 good reps without a sore lower back the next day.

My back density and thickness is the best it's ever been.


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