# Here you go



## Cheater2K (Apr 3, 2003)

Right, scales say im 16 stone,

Bit chubby on hips and lower back, have been since i started bodybuildin, but its not really bothered me. I feel i dont actuly look too good in these, a few of me mates have seen them and say i do look loads better in real life  anyways, here they are.

Although, because i personaly feel i look like **** at the moment, even more reason to start training harder


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## John (Jun 5, 2004)

A good most muscular, good delts, bi,s, n back, theres a good bit of mass there Cheater, good stuff pal, lol another bulker then get yourself trimmed down for our outing to the races, man i can see you in your factory t-shirt already .


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## Cheater2K (Apr 3, 2003)

lol, still got alot of work to go, im aiming for atleat 18 stone b5 i cut should come to 16 nice and lean, then ill work all the way back up again, and get 18 lean  with jimmys help


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## robdog (Dec 2, 2003)

Not bad at all mate. Get that waist shredded a bit and you will look bang on.

Upper body is excellent. Good size and shape.


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## Cheater2K (Apr 3, 2003)

Bis are 17 inch cold to, chest is 46-47 inch (although i just measured bis in the gym with skizxi, and they came out to be 18inch bis, which i think the tape is wrong)


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## Cheater2K (Apr 3, 2003)

thanks rob, still got alot of work though


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## DB (Oct 31, 2003)

nice matey!! get a cutter in there and u'll look massive!!...how tall r u btw?? u look quite tall,

wearin a serious face in the 2nd pic


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## Cheater2K (Apr 3, 2003)

5'11/6 foot


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

Looking good mate. Big and strong, I like that. You look so damn young. But I would still do ya.............After Jimmy of course


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## Cheater2K (Apr 3, 2003)

lol, maybe cos i am young, im only just 20, lol


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## ShowMe (Sep 23, 2004)

Most muscular looks excellent mate...put it in your avatar and surf some dating sites...you'll clean up


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## Cheater2K (Apr 3, 2003)

lol also, im holding water cos of the d-bol


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## Shib (Sep 16, 2004)

Your back looks massive Rob, I'm wondering how you get inside your calibra


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## Carnivore (Apr 7, 2004)

dont know why your dissing yourself your so damn wide, barn door back & chest! seriously mate, from one shoulder, across the chest and to the other shoulder you look fkin huge, biggest 20 year old ive ever seen!


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

Big 20 year old for sure. You look good mate. But if you smile a little you would look better

I like that hey Uncle Biker he did the double bi and most muscular, now it is your turn

I feel everybody that was on the attack mode should post............lol Biker is next


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

This is the best one.

Nice biceps. Forearms too.

Almost 20?

You have another 20 good years ahead of you.

Need to smile some tho


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

hackskii said:


> This is the best one.
> 
> Nice biceps. Forearms too.
> 
> ...


That is a good pic.

Pluck the unibrow too while you are at it


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## ShowMe (Sep 23, 2004)

I second that winger...come on Biker let's see ya mate


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## megatron (Apr 21, 2004)

Even though you are clearly holding water and have quite a high bf you can see some nice peaks and seriuos big sized muscles underneath, a little cutting would make you look awesome. Maybe it would be a good "pick me up" in terms of self opinion to loose a little bf and reveal some chunky muscles before bulking more?


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## Cheater2K (Apr 3, 2003)

lol, i thought that pic made me look small.

Also as for the comments, thanks peeps  just waiting for bikers honest comments now.

Also my back, i didnt have one 12 months ago, thats hard work this year, and im still lacking slightly on my rear delts, but they are comming along nicely. As soon as ive got them, i might cut. but its not my top proity at the moment cos im after the mass first. And like you said, ive got antoher 20+ yrs to go, lol (maybe another 5 yrs ill be where iw ant to be!)


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## John (Jun 5, 2004)

good pic, but i agree with the boys you need to do one more pic a most muscular with the biggest cheesiest grin you can muster ,lol that would be much better .


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## Cheater2K (Apr 3, 2003)

megatron, thing is, its christmas, theres no way i can hold off all the food over it  lol, i just cant and wont be able to.

My plan really is to cut up slightly while bulking (mainly bulking) then after chrimbo, go on a low test (250mg a week) and to plenty of cardio etc. and eat alot cleaner. should drop alot of bodyfat that way.


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## Cheater2K (Apr 3, 2003)

lol, im off season to by the way  hehe


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## Biker (Apr 8, 2003)

not too bad mate, good for your age!

BF% is a little high but if you're bulking who cares, carrying a little fat on your lower pecs though.

Back has width but needs more thickness IMHO. (time for the close grip rows!)

Delts I think are lacking a little mate.

But all in all not too bad at all mate.


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## Biker (Apr 8, 2003)

ShowMe said:


> I second that winger...come on Biker let's see ya mate


not at the moment mate, I lost 24lbs after my knee injury once I get some size back no problem. But straight after 3 months of not training and eating right I don't think so (lol still can't train legs as such)

lol until then just move the monitor closer to your eyes and strain at my avatar


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## Biker (Apr 8, 2003)

BTW don't worry about the bodyfat thing, so many people on other boards rip people apart for having highish bodyfat, crock of **** imho, I don't know many big guys that don't hit 15-20% when bulking


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## Cheater2K (Apr 3, 2003)

Biker, delt shave some along way from what they were 12 months ago, same with back, cos i never used to have one.

Any exercises you can think of to help get the delts to come out, and alot of thickness on the back, ive been going hard on my back, esp traps the past few months, and traps are coming along nicely


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## Biker (Apr 8, 2003)

what's your current workout mate?

and is there any need for all that bling?


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## Cheater2K (Apr 3, 2003)

lol, the chain is my 18th birthday present (never take it off) the ring on my left finger is an engagement rings, and the one of the right is my wales one. then me watch and ear ring, lol, not alot really. Ill post routine in 2 mins


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## Cheater2K (Apr 3, 2003)

Easy curl bar , Useing Normal grip for 4 sets, wide grip for 4 sets and inner grip for 4 sets.

Legs

Squats - nice and heavy 

Leg Curl

Leg extention

Ham string raises

calf raises

Shoulders

Shoulder press - sat on bench, no support

Lateral Raises arms elbows para with shoulders

Front raises

Bent over lat rasises

now i know i need more ideas for rear delts so help me out

Back and triceps

Pull ups - forward facing grip, shoulder width apart for 4 sets of 8

Lateral Pull down wide grip to back

Lateral Pull down inner grip to frotn

Barbell Rows wide grip

(soon to add in barbell row innner grip)

Stiff legged deadlifts

Shugs with the barbell - nice and heavy again.

tricep extentions with easy curl bar

cable mahine tricep pushdowns.


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## Biker (Apr 8, 2003)

mate could you tell me whats on what days and how many sets reps? to failure? negatives? assisted etc.


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## Cheater2K (Apr 3, 2003)

Chest and bis - Monday

Tuesday - Legs

Wed - day off (gonna be cardio from now on)

thursday - shoulders

friday - back and triceps

sat and sun will prob be cardio from now on to

everything is 4 sets of 8,8,6,6 except pullups, there 4 sets of 8


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## Biker (Apr 8, 2003)

Cheater2K said:


> Chest and bis - Monday
> 
> Tuesday - Legs
> 
> ...


lol so chest is remaining a secret then 

awful bicep workout IMHO.

First off chuck the easy curl bar in the bin, ****ing awful things, grap a straight bar and do 2-3 sets of curls, then some zottman curls, then 1 set of concentration or preacher with a dumbell.



Cheater2K said:


> Legs
> 
> Squats - nice and heavy
> 
> ...


well we haven't seen them so I don't know if that's working or not, waht are ham string raises? SLDL are what you want there.



Cheater2K said:


> Shoulders
> 
> Shoulder press - sat on bench, no support
> 
> ...


personally I would drop the front raises and bent over raises and just go balls to the wall withe the other two exercises.



Cheater2K said:


> Back and triceps
> 
> Pull ups - forward facing grip, shoulder width apart for 4 sets of 8
> 
> ...


Right if you're doing pull ups drop the lat pull downs (especially the ones to the back *shudder*) Inner grip is working your biceps more than your back IMHO and since biceps was earlier in the week...

why are you doing SLDL on back day and not on leg day?

Normal Deadlifts!

stick in a couple of sets of low pulley cable rows to burn your back out at the end with very slow controlled reps.

I think two sets of shrugs with a barbell and two with dumbells would be better.

In short I think you're doing too many sets and probably not enough intensity.


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## Cheater2K (Apr 3, 2003)

Give me an overhaul on what i should be doing then, im doing back and tris tonite so ill go ahead and do.

As for DL and SLDL, i cant seem to get the form right for dl, i dont know why.

Also shrugs are very high intensity, 4 sets of 8-12 on about 140-160kg with full movment.

Come on uncle biker,lol, make me thicker (and no pun intended)


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## megatron (Apr 21, 2004)

"megatron, thing is, its christmas, theres no way i can hold off all the food over it lol, i just cant and wont be able to.

My plan really is to cut up slightly while bulking (mainly bulking) then after chrimbo, go on a low test (250mg a week) and to plenty of cardio etc. and eat alot cleaner. should drop alot of bodyfat that way."

Same as me dude. Thats my plan too - maybe minus the test.


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## Cheater2K (Apr 3, 2003)

heres the chest bit, must of missed it off

All exercises are 8.8.6.6 unless im said its not

Chest & Biceps

Incline Bench 8,8,6,6

Incline Flies	 8,8,6,6

Flat Bench 8,8,6,6

Easy curl bar , Useing Normal grip for 4 sets, wide grip for 4 sets and inner grip for 4 sets.

Legs


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## Biker (Apr 8, 2003)

mate I've told you what to do have I not?


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## Biker (Apr 8, 2003)

and just start doing normal deads with a light weight until you get your form sorted.


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## Cheater2K (Apr 3, 2003)

yeah and no, i might just be blind 

same sorts of reps and sets etc?


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## Cheater2K (Apr 3, 2003)

ok will do, thanks for the advice

what about close grip barbell rows?


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## Cheater2K (Apr 3, 2003)

also when you say stright bar, your meaning the olypic bar?? its the only stright one we have in the gym, lol


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## Biker (Apr 8, 2003)

Cheater2K said:


> ok will do, thanks for the advice
> 
> what about close grip barbell rows?


either them or the cable rows I suggested.


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## Biker (Apr 8, 2003)

Cheater2K said:


> also when you say stright bar, your meaning the olypic bar?? its the only stright one we have in the gym, lol


and what's wrong with that? can you not curl the oly bar?


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## Cheater2K (Apr 3, 2003)

lol, i can, just wounderin, cos thats the only 2 bars we have, oly ones and easy curl, lol.

Ill use the oly from now on


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## Cheater2K (Apr 3, 2003)

and do you rate hammer curls??


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## Cheater2K (Apr 3, 2003)

i also take it my chest work out is ok? anything to add, or change?


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## Biker (Apr 8, 2003)

I don't do them myself, never really liked them Zottman (sp?) are the best standing dumbell curl imho


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## Biker (Apr 8, 2003)

it's ok mate.


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## ShowMe (Sep 23, 2004)

Cheater2k, a shoulder workout which I have found good over the last few months is

Clean and press - 3 sets

Side lateral raises - 3 sets

heavy upright rows - 3 sets

push presses (military press but cheating slightly) x 3 sets

All high intensity and your shoulders will cry like b1tches...show them no mercy


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## Cheater2K (Apr 3, 2003)

also, do you recon i do chest and tris, and back and bis???


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## Cheater2K (Apr 3, 2003)

miltary press, go on, i cant rememebr what it is


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## Biker (Apr 8, 2003)

what ever turns you on mate, people use both with success mate.


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## Cheater2K (Apr 3, 2003)

and biker, "its ok" isnt good enough, if it can be improved, let me know, im not gonna be able to make it anwhere near competition standard if its ok


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## Cheater2K (Apr 3, 2003)

New chest and tris workout:

#	Exersise Sets	x	Reps

Incline Bench Press 4	x 8,8,6,6

Incline Flies 4 x 8,8,6,6

Flat Bench 4 x 8,8,6,6

Push Ups 4 x Failure

Paralel bar dips? 4 x 8

Push downs - Using cable 4 x 8

Tricep Extentions 4 x 8

Maybe reverse Push downs 4 x 8

comments pelase


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## ShowMe (Sep 23, 2004)

standing with a barbell above your head...lowering it to the top of your chest slowly and then bending the knees slightly to use your momentum to get it back up again. That's a push press, a military press is without bending your knees (cheating)


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## Cheater2K (Apr 3, 2003)

Legs

#	Exersise Sets	x	Reps

1	Squats - nice and heavy  4	x	8

2	Leg Curl 4	x	8

3	Leg extention 4	x	8

4	SLDL 4	x	8

5	calf raises 4	x	10

this is legs


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## Cheater2K (Apr 3, 2003)

like a clean and press then?


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## Cheater2K (Apr 3, 2003)

Bikerm when you say go to balls, you means 6-8 sets of say 8??


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## Cheater2K (Apr 3, 2003)

also dumbell?? or barbell?


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## ShowMe (Sep 23, 2004)

yes but without the clean.

IMHO Clean and press is one of the best excersises you can do...the intensity required is second to none.


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## Cheater2K (Apr 3, 2003)

sounds, now what the fcuk are zottman curls, lol, another name for them?


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## Biker (Apr 8, 2003)

Cheater2K said:


> Bikerm when you say go to balls, you means 6-8 sets of say 8??


no I mean 3 or 4 sets but with someone spotting you and the last set should be to complete failure then a couple of assisted reps with negatives

dumbells or barbells mate what every does it for you


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## Carnivore (Apr 7, 2004)

biker i dont agree on the bicep advice, ez bar & hammers are great for width, and preacher curl is quality as well, i fkin hate straight bar, i ditched straight bar 6 months ago and did ez & hammers in its place and ive put an inch onto my arms.


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## Cheater2K (Apr 3, 2003)

already got pretty good sized arms at 17 inch but never really hit bis directly except when i first started liftin weights


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## Biker (Apr 8, 2003)

his current bicep workout is 3 exercises that he uses the EZ curl bar for in every exercise that's not IMHO good Carnivore. Hammer curls I'm not saying don't work I just don't particularly like them myself.

I think EZ curls bars are awful things, tbh I prefer dumbell work full stop for biceps, although you do need some heavy barbell curls as 1 exercise

Zottman curls, standing dumbell curls as normal only at the bottom of the movement your palm should face behind you and not your side, if that makes sense.


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## Biker (Apr 8, 2003)

BTW mate I didn't say preachers weren't good I in fact suggested them.

BTW 1" in 6 months is good going IMHO!


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## Carnivore (Apr 7, 2004)

well it probably had somthing to do with my 1st cycle as well  ,i find straight bar places way to much emphasis on the forearms, for me anyway


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## Biker (Apr 8, 2003)

you see we really are all different I have always got sore wrists from using EZ bars, and don't from straight bars


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## Cheater2K (Apr 3, 2003)

perhaps its one of those thigns that just effets different people 

i can use both, just got a slight twinge in one of my shoulders.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Cheater2K said:


> New chest and tris workout:
> 
> #	Exersise Sets	x	Reps
> 
> ...


Cheater, I would drop the pushups for chest. Bench will give you a better bang for your buck here.

Bar dips and pushdowns are very similar so if you want to change something you can finish off the chest and start on the triceps with some close grip bench.

Reverse grip pushdowns are similar to your pushdowns and dips.

So you can work your chest doing inclines, bench, close grip bench then dips.

All compound exercises here and no need for isolation. Your bench will go up and you wont be overtraining. No need to bang the triceps anymore either.

Also you are doing to many pullups/pulldowns.

Do more bent over rows and deadlifts. Problem with most bodybuilders is they have too strong of a chest and not strong enough rhomboids and back. This makes an inballance pulling the shoulders foreward and this is prime for injury.

I should know this is what happened to me.

For biceps, carefull going heavy here as on cycle you can get a bicep tear. I would stick to somewhere around 6 sets for that. Strait bar curls and hammer curls will hit both heads of the bicep and with all the pulling exercises you dont have to do alot for the biceps.

Let me know what you think of the suggestions.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Cheater2K said:


> i can use both, just got a slight twinge in one of my shoulders.


Bro, beginning signs of a shoulder injury here.

You will have to strengthen your rhomboids and back.

Your rear delt will need to be stronger too.


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## Guest (Oct 22, 2004)

Ah, that looks better than your first photo, still doesn't do you justice though, I hate the fact pictures can make you look thinner than you really are. I notice it when you see all those thin celebrities on the TV, and when you see them for real, they look fat.


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## Biker (Apr 8, 2003)

it's all down to lighting IMHO, photos never look good unless the lighting is good. Outside on a sunny day is the ideal


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## Cheater2K (Apr 3, 2003)

yeah, insanity is the only person on the board whos actuly seen me (oh and skizxi)

Hackskii, yeah, my shoulder problem is down to small rear delts, its not starting to fix now im training back alot better. I hope


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

Biker said:


> But straight after 3 months of not training and eating right I don't think so (lol still can't train legs as such)
> 
> lol until then just move the monitor closer to your eyes and strain at my avatar


Was I supposed to get hard? 

I actually wanted to comment on this thread but it took off so fast and I wasn't home.

On chest do the flys last

On back do some bent over rows and low cable rows. I always do a minumum of 2 widening and 3 thickening. Back is the biggest sheet of muscle. If you want more rear delt then when doing the bent rows take it higher.

Bicepts even though they are a show muscle, I like to do one heavy, and then isolate.

Hammer curls, straight bar curls, and reverse curls. That way it hits the whole arm and some top of the forearms and actually hits the bottom of the bicept. I also change up my routine allot, next week I might do something else like preacher curls, but I always do a heavy basic compound movement first.


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## Cheater2K (Apr 3, 2003)

Thanks for the advice mate, ive taken note of it


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## Jimmy1 (Aug 14, 2003)

Biker said:


> BTW don't worry about the bodyfat thing, so many people on other boards rip people apart for having highish bodyfat, crock of **** imho, I don't know many big guys that don't hit 15-20% when bulking


Ok, I havnt read the thread as its so long....only got as far as this post by biker on page 2 and its where I want to comment.

Biker is correct about you bulking because fat doesnt matter too much just yet

BUT

1 too much fat makes dieting for a show ten times as hard as it already is!! I carry aprox 30lbs above contest condition and it still hurts even then.

2 bulking is fine as long as your not consuming too many junk kcals

the reason being, extra junk food promotes un necesary BF but more importantly.....fill up on sugar and fat and you will not have the apetite to eat your daily food plan! If there is room for junkfood then you arnt eating enough of the good stuff!

I hope you dont take this the wrong way bud as its not my intention to hurt your feelings. A cleaner bulk WILL strip fat off you and WILL build more muscle :bounce:


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## Cheater2K (Apr 3, 2003)

Yup Jimmy  Agree with you. Ive always carried the excess on my hips since i was 9 stone. Although it looks worse on the pics than what is actuly is.

I dont eat any junk food, if i do, its just the odd pizza (and i mean odd, veery rarely actuly)


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## big pete (Mar 23, 2004)

lookin good cheater, very similar lookin to my training partner.

great rear lat shot, huge back.


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## Cheater2K (Apr 3, 2003)

i wasnt tenseing or anything on that back pic, i was pretty impressed myself, cos my back has been really lacking.

But as a few people have picked up on, i need to sort my thickness out.


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## Cookie (Sep 14, 2009)

I`m assuming that your goal at the moment is to loose some overall bodyfat?

Because personelly I think that bulking up/getting fat hampers gains

If you cant see the muscle how can you tell what is happening underneath other than the scales needle going up and thats not much help other than to the ego.

I agree with jimmy about clean diet bulking but I`m more in favour of being no more than 14-20lbs above competition weight and even staying at 10lbs if you can manage it.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

I just read an article yesterday written by John M. Berardi.

It was really interesting and this is what I have felt from my own personal experiances in dieting and bulking.

Sorry for the long post:

Q: One big debate in bodybuilding is whether one should bulk up first and

then cut down, or whether one should cut down first and then bulk up?

Which do you think is better?

A: Most popular opinions on this topic suggest that the best way to get

the ideal physique (big AND ripped) is to bulk up first and then try to

diet down. The proponents of this strategy suggest that in bulking up, you

will be adding muscle mass. They further state that this muscle mass will

be helpful, metabolically speaking, when you go to diet down. Since muscle

is the engine that burns fat, doesn't it make sense that with a bigger

engine you will burn more fuel and will get leaner much easier?

Well, although it makes sense intuitively, I'd like to present some data

and an argument that may lead you to rethink this strategy. I pretty much

want to propose that the simplistic idea of bulking up before cutting down

is a relatively useless one. It doesn't take into account how much muscle

and fat you have already. I mean, what if you're 15-20% body fat but only

weigh 160 at a height of 6 ft.? This is a relatively low ratio of lean

body mass to fat mass. So should you still "bulk up" to gain some muscle

and metabolic power before you try to get lean? The answer to this

question and a few more will be addressed below.

Before I talk about this issue though, I want to clearly state that I

doubt there ever will be a legitimate research study examining this

question in healthy male and female weightlifters. I just can't picture

the National Institutes of Health (NIH) throwing big research dollars at a

project designed to figure out how to make already muscular men and women

bigger and more ripped. They tend to fund studies that aim at curing

cancer and heart disease and stuff like that. So this question will

probably never be answered scientifically. But using some other

literature, we can come to some pretty cool conclusions.

The data I'm about to present isn't really new. However, for some reason

this information hasn't trickled down into the bodybuilding community as

of yet. And I'm not sure as to why. I guess it's probably due to the

dogmatic approach of most weight lifters who are guided by tradition

rather than objective science. Geez, I'm starting to sound like the late

Mike Mentzer, aren't I?

Anyway, while ignored in weight lifting, researchers have known for years

that one of the biggest determinants of your muscle loss to fat loss ratio

(when dieting) and your muscle gain to fat gain ratio (when bulking up) is

your initial level of body fatness. Basically the amount of body fat that

you have (percentage and total pounds of fat) will be a major determinant

of how your body responds to over eating or under eating.

Several studies have been done to explore this phenomenon and G.B. Forbes

has compiled the results of these investigations into one review article

(Ann N Y Acad Sci 2000 May;904:359-65). For organizational purposes, I've

split the results up into a weight loss experiment section and a weight

gain experiment section.

 Weight Loss Experiments

In several experiments, subjects were underfed to varying degrees in

order to produce weight loss. Here are the results of these experiments

Subjects were given the following three hypocaloric diets to produce

weight loss:

Diet #1 - 0-450 kcal/day

Diet #2 - 500-1000 kcal/day

Diet #3 - 1000+ kcal/day

The interesting results of this study show that:

1. At the same calorie levels, the fatter subjects kept more muscle

and lost more fat.

Let's look at the numbers:

Initial Body FatCaloric IntakeLean Mass Lost

(% of Weight Lost) Fat Lost

(% of Weight Lost)

20 kg (44 lbs)Lowest60%40%

20 kg (44 lbs)Higher20%80%

60 kg (132 lbs)Lowest35%75%

60 kg (132 lbs)Higher10% 90%

I hope it's clear from this table that eating a diet too few in calories

causes a substantial LBM (lean body mass) loss, while eating a higher

calorie (but still hypocaloric diet) preserves more lean mass. In

addition, it's especially interesting to note that the fatter subjects on

both the higher calorie and the lower calorie diets have a remarkable

shift in the muscle loss to fat loss ratio toward more fat loss and less

muscle loss. This shift is especially striking in comparison to what

happens when their leaner counterparts diet.

Several other studies show that this phenomenon is not exclusive to

humans. It is also present in fasting and hibernating mammals:

Initial Body Fat Caloric IntakeLean Mass

(% of Weight Lost) Lost Fat Lost

(% of Weight Lost)

10% fatNone80%20%

30% fatNone40%60%

50% fatNone18%82%

Since all of the above studies were done in non-exercise trained humans

and mammals, further studies were done to determine the effects exercise

on weight loss. If exercise is used in place of, or in addition to calorie

restriction or fasting, more lean body mass is preserved than if there was

no exercise. However the same trends are evident in that the fatter

individuals preserve more lean mass while the leaner individuals lose more

lean mass.

Now that you've seen these data, I think that the take-home message for

dieting should be as follows.

1. Always use exercise in conjunction with diet to promote loss of fat

and preservation of lean mass.

2. Always consider your initial body fat before deciding how severe your

diet should be.

3. When starting a diet with a high level of body fat, your diet can be

more restrictive and/or severe since you will lose the fat

preferentially.

4. As you diet and get leaner, you should adjust your calorie deficit so

that it is actually smaller. So if you start a diet eating 1000 calories

below maintenance, as you get leaner, your daily deficit should decrease

to 500 calories per day.

5. If you don't decrease your calorie deficit as you lose fat, you will

begin to lose an unacceptable amount of lean mass.

Weight Gain Experiments

In several experiments, subjects were overfed to varying degrees in

order to produce weight gain. Here are the results of these experiments

These studies have shown that when overfed, initial body fat level is

also important:

Initial Body FatCaloric IntakeLean Mass Gained

(% of Weight Gained) Fat Gained

(% of Weight Gained)

10 kg (22 lbs)Overfeeding70%30%

20 kg (44 lbs)Overfeeding30%70%

40 kg (88 lbs)Overfeeding20%80%

These striking differences in the ratio of LBM gained to fat gained

illustrate the need to start an overeating phase while lean. In the

leanest subjects, there was a 2 1/3 pound muscle gain for every 1 pound of

fat gained. However, for the fatter subjects, 4 pounds of fat were gained

for every 1 pound of muscle gained.

From these overfeeding studies, it's clear that lean individuals gain less

fat and more muscle when overfeeding when compared to their fatter

counterparts. Since these subjects were not exercise trained, adding

exercise would have probably lead to a shift toward more muscle gain with

less fat gain. Exercise has a nutrient partitioning effect, shuttling

nutrients preferentially toward the lean tissues. As such, you'd expect

more lean gain during exercise training and overfeeding. However, either

way, the trends would probably remain and fatter subjects would gain more

fat during overfeeding than lean individuals.

One of the coolest things about this article is that a predicative

equation was generated that allows us to calculate the amount of muscle

and the amount of fat that we can expect to gain, based on our initial fat

weight. Check it out.

__Lean Mass Gain__

Weight Gain =_______10.4_______

10.4 + initial fat weight (kg)

In addition, this very same equation is valid when dieting for the

prediction of muscle loss and fat loss.

__Lean Mass Loss__

Weight Loss=_______10.4_______

10.4 + initial fat weight (kg)

While not flawless, these equations are handy tools for estimating how

much LBM and fat you may gain or lose when underfeeding or overfeeding. In

addition, they allow us to decide whether it's a good time to try to bulk

up or not.

Therefore, for someone who is 92 kg (200 lbs) and 5% body fat (4.6kg fat),

about 70% of the weight gained during an overfeeding phase can be expected

to be lean body mass (10.4 divided by 10.4 plus 4.6 is equal to 0.70),

while the remaining 30% is expected to be fat weight. However in someone

who is 92kg and 10% body fat (9.2kg of fat), 53% of weight gained will be

lean body mass.

Keep in mind that the opposite is also true. If you're 92 kg (200 lbs) and

5% body fat (4.6% fat), about 70% of the weight lost during a dieting

phase can be expected to be lean body mass.

So perhaps a good idea is to only overfeed when relatively lean and to

diet hard only when over fat. If you're 200 lbs and around 10-15% body

fat, these equations predict that about half the weight you gain will be

fat and half will be muscle. If you try to gain when fatter than 15%, much

of the weight you gain will be fat mass.

I must offer a word of caution, though. Remember that these equations were

mostly generated using diet alone. The addition of weight training and

cardio would have changed things up a bit. In addition, these numbers may

be different if supplements are used. Some supplements change nutrient

partitioning parameters (alpha-lipoic acid, fish oils, presumably

Methoxy-7, etc); others preserve lean body mass when dieting (ephedrine,

caffeine, etc); and others increase protein synthesis (anabolic steroids

and androgens). Any of these factors can change the exact ratios.

However, as I said before, the basic principles remain. When dieting, the

leaner you get, the less your calorie deficit should be or else you'll

lose more LBM than necessary. And, when bulking up, your best bet is to

start lean, as most of the weight you gain will be LBM. If you start fat,

much of your weight gain will be fat gain.

Although this was a roundabout way of answering your question, the bottom

line is that it looks like it is better to diet down first then bulk up

rather than the other way around.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

In a nutshell, the article says that if you have low bodyfat and bulk you will gain more muscle than having high % of bodyfat and bulk.

If dieting and have a high percent of bodyfat and diet then you will lose more bodyfat than when you are at a low % of bodyfat and diet.

When you are fat and bulk you get even fatter.

When you are really lean and diet you lose muscle.


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## John (Jun 5, 2004)

a very good sum up, cheers


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Ive been collecting his stuff.

Man this guys is good.

I need to post some of it here. Mainly long reads tho and can be a bit technical but I find them to be a good read.


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## big (Sep 14, 2004)

hackskii said:


> When you are fat and bulk you get even fatter.
> 
> When you are really lean and diet you lose muscle.


Good synopsis, and something I've always agreed with, both from a theortical point of view and from self-experimentation.

Which means to me:

If you're fat, cut before bulking.

If you're very lean and want to get leaner, consider AAS for muscle preservation.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

big said:


> Good synopsis, and something I've always agreed with, both from a theortical point of view and from self-experimentation.
> 
> Which means to me:
> 
> ...


 :beer:

Absolutly. I didnt really think about this till just recently.

I always wondered why the skinny guys that went on gear and ate got so big so fast. I thought it was genetics. Now, I know and by Johns article there is scientific proof.

So obvious for so long and I never noticed. Goes the same for dieting too, the other way


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## Killerkeane (Nov 9, 2003)

that was a good read Hacks, nice one buddy


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## Shib (Sep 16, 2004)

Hackski for president

Great read!


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## Tuna_boi (Oct 30, 2004)

Nice read Hacks.Thats my strategy lean down first,


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

Shib said:


> Hackski for president
> 
> Great read!


lol, Get a room............lol

The Shibinator has spoken. All I can say is, fish..................lol. Dont tell cookie.....shhhhh


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## Killerkeane (Nov 9, 2003)

lol, cookie and jimmy always get the brunt..


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## Cheater2K (Apr 3, 2003)

Good article, at the moment im just doing what biker is saying  good feeling somthing big is about to happen


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## Lauren (Jan 20, 2005)

Are these the most muscular shots you were talking about Cheater?????????????????????????????????

As they are the only ones I can fine with your baggy tops off...............


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## Cheater2K (Apr 3, 2003)

dunno, ill look back now for ya


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## Lauren (Jan 20, 2005)

Thanks-you muchly.


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## Cheater2K (Apr 3, 2003)

god them pics are old i do need new ones up ,lol


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## Lauren (Jan 20, 2005)

no time like the present eh!!!!


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## mark1436114490 (Apr 20, 2003)

You said it - new piccs needed.


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## Cheater2K (Apr 3, 2003)

aye, but for some reason, a few peeps aint listening, im not gonna post pics when i aint even training 100%, its just a waste of time


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## John (Jun 5, 2004)

so we might see some next year , cause im still waiting for the ones you were gonna do when you started to work with Biker, then with Chef, nah im just pulling your chain, i know you,ll get to them when you do .


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## Cheater2K (Apr 3, 2003)

with biker, thats them photos  lol, last october?

but work with chex? ive got his book, although was made homless so couldnt follow anything in there anyway  lol

but .... new pics will come prob january or feb next yr


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Damn, you were homeless?

You should be ripped up as homeless guys are usually skinny

Cheater, you need to control insulin.

If you control insulin you will lose the bodyfat around the waist line big time.

This can be accomplished by lowering the carbs.

Restricting carbs.

Using low GI carbs.

There are other ways to do that too hormonally.

Sluggish thyroid, low progesterone, high estrogen, low test levels, to name a few.


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## Cheater2K (Apr 3, 2003)

Sure was matey, Scott, when you have time, msg us on MSN


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

OK, I will be a bit busy getting ready for the river but I can do that.


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## Cheater2K (Apr 3, 2003)

no probs mate, go out to the river, its nothing urgent  ill just catch ya when your on next


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