# 5/3/1 or 7/5/3 for all compound movements



## flint2017 (Jul 23, 2018)

Hello all,

Currently intermediate lifter and doing push pull legs upper lower routine for the goal of gaining mass and strength

so the question is which will be good progression template for progress on all 4 compound movements.

Wendler 5/3/1 or ogus 7/5/3 ?

Or reverse Pyramid training in 3-5,6-9,10-12 rep range would be better ?

@Jordan08 I believe u have experience with 5/3/1

any thoughts, experience or suggestions ?


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## ausmaz (Jul 14, 2014)

flint2017 said:


> Hello all,
> 
> Currently intermediate lifter and doing push pull legs upper lower routine for the goal of gaining mass and strength
> 
> ...


 Ive run 531 in the past and am back doing it again currently! I have looked into ogus'753 and tbh it looks a solid programme.... main differences that i can see are just that you get more volume in on the main lift with 753 and obviously the %'s are different.... other than that its a similar progression scheme (5kg lower body, 2.5kg upper body) per training cycle....

My two cents? Pick one and try it for at least 6 cycles, that way you should be starting to set pr's.... then if you feel like a change, deload and try 753.... good luck!

Edit: just seen this is in natural bodybuilding section..... NEITHER of these programs are strictly for bodybuilding.... doesnt mean they wont work.... just not what they were designed for....


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

I'd be trying to decide whether size or strength is your real priority, and making a decision from there. As @ausmaz pointed out you you're asking in the natural bodybuilding section about more strength focused programmes. You could definitely make size gains following them but they probably aren't optimal for this.


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## maccertimur (Jul 8, 2018)

Ultrasonic said:


> I'd be trying to decide whether size or strength is your real priority, and making a decision from there. As @ausmaz pointed out you you're asking in the natural bodybuilding section about more strength focused programmes. You could definitely make size gains following them but the probably aren't optimal for this.


 I believe that discussion of workout programmers should be limited to a natural bodybuilding section.Since on steroids it doesn't even matter what routine you go,you would still grow.In fact you will grow faster without even going to the gym than a natural who has his training and diet on point. Can not find a study about that right now but it is there.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

maccertimur said:


> I believe that discussion of workout programmers should be limited to a natural bodybuilding section.Since on steroids it doesn't even matter what routine you go,you would still grow.In fact you will grow faster without even going to the gym than a natural who has his training and diet on point. Can not find a study about that right now but it is there.


 The question was more because you posted in a bodybuilding section rather than the Strength Training and Powerlifting section, but if your point was that there isn't a natural strength training section I understand where you're coming from. You may realise already but I am natural by the way. I will just say though that whilst PEDs do allow people to make some progress with poor training, optimal results will still only be achieved by decent training. Oh, and I suspect the study you have in mind is this one:

https://www.nejm.org/doi/10.1056/NEJM199607043350101?url_ver=Z39.88-2003&rfr_id=ori:rid:crossref.org&rfr_dat=cr_pub%3dwww.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

You haven't actually answered the question of whether strength or size is your priority though. I asked as it's relevant for people trying to offer you advice on what might be the best routine for you.


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## flint2017 (Jul 23, 2018)

i am more of a powerbuilding side

i like to go heavy in my squats,bench,ohp and deadlifts

and also want size

i would say first strength then size


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

flint2017 said:


> i am more of a powerbuilding side
> 
> i like to go heavy in my squats,bench,ohp and deadlifts
> 
> ...


 This might be of interest:


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## AestheticManlet (Jun 12, 2012)

Don't see the point of doing ppl plus ul. Stick to one or the other imo ppl is the better choice.

You can't do 531 over 5 days a week it will kill strength progression assisted or not.

If you do ppl start each session with your 531 main lift, rest of workout aim for hypertrophy (you can also add an fsl set to the main lift on the day for a bit more volume. Imo training 3 outta 5 days is sufficient, giving 2 rest days.

If you do upper lower start each session with the main lift, upper will be bench, second upper be ohp, lower is deads and squats. 4 days training outta 7 is preferred for ul.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

AestheticManlet said:


> Don't see the point of doing ppl plus ul.


 The reason many do something like this is wanting to train muscle groups twice per week, whilst only training on weekdays. A PPL split can be used in higher frequency approaches than the three workouts per week it sounds like you do, for example PPL rest PPL rest etc. As I just posted on another thread there is good logic to training muscle groups twice per week, natty anyway. Not suggesting you change what you do but there is logic behind it.


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## AestheticManlet (Jun 12, 2012)

Ultrasonic said:


> The reason many do something like this is wanting to train muscle groups twice per week, whilst only training on weekdays. A PPL split can be used in higher frequency approaches than the three workouts per week it sounds like you do, for example PPL rest PPL rest etc. As I just posted on another thread there is good logic to training muscle groups twice per week, natty anyway. Not suggesting you change what you do but there is logic behind it.


 I meant from a strength aspect you can't following 531 following that split, especially natty unless you have some easy days where you're not following it.

In terms of pplul If you're training for size and hypertrophy then yeah agreed I have considered it myself.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

AestheticManlet said:


> I meant from a strength aspect you can't following 531 following that split, especially natty unless you have some easy days where you're not following it.
> 
> In terms of pplul If you're training for size and hypertrophy then yeah agreed I have considered it myself.


 Oh right, yeah, I was focusing on hypertrophy. Although I'm pretty sure most if not all powerlifting programmes would train the big lifts more than once per week. I don't spend time researching powerlifting training though so others are better placed to comment.


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## RexEverthing (Apr 4, 2014)

Ultrasonic said:


> I'd be trying to decide whether size or strength is your real priority, and making a decision from there. As @ausmaz pointed out you you're asking in the natural bodybuilding section about more strength focused programmes. You could definitely make size gains following them but they probably aren't optimal for this.


 What is optimal for size gains for a natural?


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## Matt6210 (Feb 15, 2018)

RexEverthing said:


> What is optimal for size gains for a natural?


 Optimal size gains for a natural is to start taking gear :lol:


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

RexEverthing said:


> What is optimal for size gains for a natural?


 The video I posted above is worth a watch in this regard. 5,3,1 in particular I really don't think is likely to be optimal for size, where the number of hard sets that allows progress over time is probably the best metric to focus on when considering a program (see video below). I stress the point underlined as it does still require someone to get stronger, but in the rep ranges used rather than focusing on low rep strength.


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## Jordan08 (Feb 17, 2014)

Don't know enough about 753 but i am sure it wouldn't be much different than 531

If you are someone who is looking for strength and size, 531 is the best program or at least i have found it. (I am more inclined towards a program that is based on percentages rather than RPE)

If following 531, You have to add down sets to typical 531 to get more volume.

I can give you an example of what i do on a Bench Day

Bench press 531 With last two sets as down sets where you drop the weight by 30% and get 10 reps. Second drop set can be drop 10% more weight and get AMRAP.

Two sets of DB press 2*12

Lateral raises

Pec Dec or cables or flys whatver.

Job Done

On Press day,

I would do the same OHP 531 and then 2 down sets

Bench press with 60% of my 1RM and perform 3-4 sets

Laterals

Pec dec

JOb done

You have to add volume to 531 original program if size is your goal as well.


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## RexEverthing (Apr 4, 2014)

Matt6210 said:


> Optimal size gains for a natural is to start taking gear :lol:


 I thought you might say that...


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## Matt6210 (Feb 15, 2018)

RexEverthing said:


> I thought you might say that...


 Yeah i really don't mean to be a party pooper mate, but no ****er got anywhere training naturally.

you talking about gaining size you need ped's unless you just slam down thousands of cals, but you will putting as much fat as muscle on.

wanna just stay fit fair enough, but not going to be gaining size like you asked.


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## RexEverthing (Apr 4, 2014)

Matt6210 said:


> Yeah i really don't mean to be a party pooper mate, but no ****er got anywhere training naturally.
> 
> you talking about gaining size you need ped's unless you just slam down thousands of cals, but you will putting as much fat as muscle on.
> 
> wanna just stay fit fair enough, but not going to be gaining size like you asked.


 True enough mate. I'd have jumped on years ago but it would fvck me mentally. Happy enough with being fit and not a blob for the most part.

Hope Natty doesn't see this...


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## Matt6210 (Feb 15, 2018)

RexEverthing said:


> True enough mate. I'd have jumped on years ago but it would fvck me mentally. Happy enough with being fit and not a blob for the most part.
> 
> Hope Natty doesn't see this...


 Training naturally just makes you fit and have a better body composition than most.

Want to get big naturally have to eat s**t loads of cals but would put on loads of fat.

want to cut naturally you will loose as much muscle as fat as you won't be anabolic In a deficit.

Not all gear f**ks your head up, just try a low test only course.

600mg test a week.


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## RexEverthing (Apr 4, 2014)

Matt6210 said:


> Training naturally just makes you fit and have a better body composition than most.
> 
> Want to get big naturally have to eat s**t loads of cals but would put on loads of fat.
> 
> ...


 Been there cutting naturally - everything I built went and looked like Christian bale in the machinist. It's not the gear but me - I get massive health anxiety all the time and introducing another external factor would fvck me up. My issue, not gear.

As I say happy enough just to keep plugging away and as long as I'm not a blob I'm cool :thumbup1:


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Matt6210 said:


> Yeah i really don't mean to be a party pooper mate, but no ****er got anywhere training naturally.


 Absolute nonsense.

Check out Eric Helms' Instragram below for a whole load of photos of people from before steroids even existed so you can't claim 'fake natty'. The most recent set of photos of Eric himself are impressive too as far as I'm concerned.

https://www.instagram.com/helms3dmj/?hl=en


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## Matt6210 (Feb 15, 2018)

@Ultrasonic I really don't mean to be disrespectful mate, even tho I have absolutely no respect for people training naturally,

its like a cry for help "look what im doing without steroids"

when in reality your making something already very hard 100 times harder.

how long you been training natural? You say it can be done, what's your lifts, post a pic?

you won't even post your stats, so in reality you a complete contradiction to what you preach?


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## Matt6210 (Feb 15, 2018)

Ultrasonic said:


> Absolute nonsense.
> 
> Check out Eric Helms' Instragram below for a whole load of photos of people from before steroids even existed so you can't claim 'fake natty'. The most recent set of photos of Eric himself are impressive too as far as I'm concerned.
> 
> https://www.instagram.com/helms3dmj/?hl=en


 I don't even think I need to comment on these photos.

but i seriously dont think they back up your claims lol.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Matt6210 said:


> @Ultrasonic I really don't mean to be disrespectful mate, even tho I have absolutely no respect for people training naturally,
> 
> its like a cry for help "look what im doing without steroids"
> 
> when in reality your making something already very hard 100 times harder.


 Using steroids is the desperate step in my book but that's a discussion I'm not going to pursue with you as it would get precisely nowhere.



> how long you been training natural? You say it can be done, what's your lifts, post a pic?
> 
> you won't even post your stats, so in reality you a complete contradiction to what you preach?


 Your point was no-one ever achieved anything naturally. I don't look like the examples I posted as I have sh1t genetics not elite level genetics. I have improved my physique though, and it's very much still a work in progress  .

My most productive training has been over the last 18 months, as in various forms I wasted time before that by using what I now realise was training volumes that were too low for me. I've done some form of training for most of the last 5 years, and dabbled sporadically for the 10 years before that. I post partly to try to help beginners not make the same mistakes I have, and to share information I wish I'd known when I first started.


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## Matt6210 (Feb 15, 2018)

Ultrasonic said:


> Using steroids is the desperate step in my book but that's a discussion I'm not going to pursue with you as it would get precisely nowhere.
> 
> Your point was no-one ever achieved anything naturally. I don't look like the examples I posted as I have sh1t genetics not elite level genetics. I have improved my physique though, and it's very much still a work in progress  .
> 
> My most productive training has been over the last 18 months, as in various forms I wasted time before that by using what I now realise was training volumes that were too low for me. I've done some form of training for most of the last 5 years, and dabbled sporadically for the 10 years before that. I post partly to try to help beginners not make the same mistakes I have, and to share information I wish I'd known when I first started.


 What like you wished you started taking gear?

you preach over and over to people about staying natural, doing this and doing that when in reality it's going to do f**k all...

your completey wasteing there time and giving them false hope.

this is the best example of someone tracing naturally you could give me, and looks like he takes training pretty serious judging by his Instagram post.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

I was referring to the recent photo of Eric below.

https://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/index.php?app=core&module=system&controller=embed&url=https://www.instagram.com/p/BnelNePl_u6/?hl=en%26taken-by=helms3dmj


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## Matt6210 (Feb 15, 2018)

Ultrasonic said:


> I was referring to the recent photo of Eric below.
> 
> https://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/index.php?app=core&module=system&controller=embed&url=https://www.instagram.com/p/BnelNePl_u6/?hl=en%26taken-by=helms3dmj


 Is that a piss take?

trolling me lol?


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Matt6210 said:


> What like you wished you started taking gear?


 I'm 41 and in the best shape of my life, drug free. I have precisely no regrets about not using gear, and absolutely no temptation to do so now. Risking my health for something as irrelevant as looking bigger, would be, for me, madness.



Matt6210 said:


> you preach over and over to people about staying natural,


 I really don't.

I will encourage anyone considering using PEDs to properly investigate the risks involved and to weigh up what is really important to them. I will also try to help people to optimise what they can achieve naturally, in part as many turn to PEDs because they think they can't achieve anything without when there are almost always training or diet issues that can be resolved.

What I don't do is go around criticising anyone who chooses to use gear for doing so, and I'd encourage you to try to adopt the same attitude with regards to those who choose to train naturally. In particular respecting that this can be a well-informed and considered choice, rather than people somehow being either too stupid or too scared to use PEDs as you generally seem to suggest. Also bear in mind that there are a lot more natural trainees here than you seem to assume:

https://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/topic/317893-are-you-natty-or-not/?do=embed


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## Matt6210 (Feb 15, 2018)

@Ultrasonic this is the best example you can give me of why people should stay natural.

paragliding, surfing, car racing, rugby are all hobbies that have risks, lots of people choose to do them.

Bodybuilding you take risks with steroids, no different.

out of intrest does this geezer have the elite genetics you speak of?


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## swole troll (Apr 15, 2015)

maccertimur said:


> I believe that discussion of workout programmers should be limited to a natural bodybuilding section.Since on steroids it doesn't even matter what routine you go,you would still grow.


 I'm guessing you're relatively new to gear and or training if you actually believe programming makes no difference to the enhanced lifter


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Matt6210 said:


> @Ultrasonic this is the best example you can give me of why people should stay natural.


 No. I linked to Eric's Instagram because of the historical examples from before steroids existed that he has been regularly posting.


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## flint2017 (Jul 23, 2018)

AestheticManlet said:


> Don't see the point of doing ppl plus ul. Stick to one or the other imo ppl is the better choice.
> 
> You can't do 531 over 5 days a week it will kill strength progression assisted or not.
> 
> ...


 before i was doing Upper lower rest upper rest lower rest training 4 days a week but i need to improve my back so added extra pull day

so the routine looks like this

Lower upper rest lower push pull rest

lower- legs 5/3/1 plus quads volume

upper - OHP 5/3/1 plus upper volume

rest

lower- deadlift 5/3/1 plus hams focus

push- bench 531 plus push volume

pull- Back hypertrophy volume (bcz back is my weakest area )

rest

repeat


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## flint2017 (Jul 23, 2018)

Jordan08 said:


> Don't know enough about 753 but i am sure it wouldn't be much different than 531
> 
> If you are someone who is looking for strength and size, 531 is the best program or at least i have found it. (I am more inclined towards a program that is based on percentages rather than RPE)
> 
> ...


 thanks @Jordan08 for idea

whats your thought about this ?


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## AestheticManlet (Jun 12, 2012)

Jordan08 said:


> Don't know enough about 753 but i am sure it wouldn't be much different than 531
> 
> If you are someone who is looking for strength and size, 531 is the best program or at least i have found it. (I am more inclined towards a program that is based on percentages rather than RPE)
> 
> ...


 Do you squat and dead same day?

I do really like 531 and have had some decent lifts previously, I feel the upper days fine with ohp or bench focus and the other as accessory but on lower days I can't motivate myself, especially with gear use things like lower back pumps are ridiculous.

So I've ended up following ppl using 531 again and just use bench 531 and ohp as an accessory lift for shoulders.


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## Jordan08 (Feb 17, 2014)

AestheticManlet said:


> Do you squat and dead same day?
> 
> I do really like 531 and have had some decent lifts previously, I feel the upper days fine with ohp or bench focus and the other as accessory but on lower days I can't motivate myself, especially with gear use things like lower back pumps are ridiculous.
> 
> So I've ended up following ppl using 531 again and just use bench 531 and ohp as an accessory lift for shoulders.


 No mate. I do deadlifts with Pull. On one pull day, where i do heavy deads, i do light volume work on Back squats next day. On the second pull of week, i only perform vertical pulls and then heavy squats after that pull. This way, lower back doesnt gets fried up on squat days coz i didnt do heavy deads in previous pull session.

Briefly, i do this

Pull 1 - Heavy deads and rowings

Legs 1 - Leg press 531 and volume work on Back squats

Pull 2 - Chin ups, Lat pulldowns, pullover and Chest supported rows

Legs 2 :- Heavy squats and RDLs


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

flint2017 said:


> Hello all,
> 
> Currently intermediate lifter and doing push pull legs upper lower routine for the goal of gaining mass and strength
> 
> ...


 Primarily for strength development, either Wendler or Ogus are fine. They will deliver hypertrophy too but not as efficiently as higher rep sets - sets where failure occurs or would occur below roughly seven reps primarily develop neural efficiency and motor unit recruitment patterns and only moderately stimulate hypertrophy. To stimulate hypertrophy best when also focusing on strength you'd want to also include some single joint ancillary exercises either taken to failure or merely close to failure but for a sufficient number of sets in higher rep ranges.


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

In regards to natural versus non natural, that should be a personal choice based on personal goals, and no one from either camp can legitimately claim any moral high ground over the other.

Assisted athletes will almost always get bigger and stronger than their natural counterparts, but not always - there are countless examples of people who take steroids with shitty unimpressive physiques, simply because they have no clue how to train or eat properly.

Anyone who puts decent consistent effort into both of those things is worthy of respect, assisted or natural, and will continually improve. The end result may be different, but the respect value due to hard work is exactly the same.

Looking down on naturals is just as stupid as labeling all PED users as cheats. The only place where PED use could be considered cheating is if an athlete enters a contest that specifically states no PED use, but they use anyway to try to gain an advantage. That is simply as good as admitting that the individual is scared they can't win within the limits of the rules. Where no such rules are in place however, such as pro bodybuilding, no probs with PEDs at all.


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## u2pride (Sep 20, 2012)

Jordan08 said:


> Don't know enough about 753 but i am sure it wouldn't be much different than 531
> 
> If you are someone who is looking for strength and size, 531 is the best program or at least i have found it. (I am more inclined towards a program that is based on percentages rather than RPE)
> 
> ...


 Hi @Jordan08,

when do you insert back workout? On Deadlift day?


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## Jordan08 (Feb 17, 2014)

u2pride said:


> Hi @Jordan08,
> 
> when do you insert back workout? On Deadlift day?


 Deadlifts on pull 1 only

DLs 531

Chest supported rows 3x8

Seated rowings 3x15

On second pull i will skip the Dls and do vertical back movements.


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## u2pride (Sep 20, 2012)

Jordan08 said:


> Deadlifts on pull 1 only
> 
> DLs 531
> 
> ...


 Sorry @Jordan08, but Wendler 5/3/1 has one pull day only (deadlift), which is your second pull?


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## Jordan08 (Feb 17, 2014)

u2pride said:


> Sorry @Jordan08, but Wendler 5/3/1 has one pull day only (deadlift), which is your second pull?


 I do 531 with PPL.

On leg 1 i do 531 with Front squats

On legs 2 i do 531 with back squats

On push 1 , bench 531

On push 2 , OHP 531

On pull 1, Deadlifts

On pull 2, Lat pulldowns, pullover and meadows rows.


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## nWo (Mar 25, 2014)

maccertimur said:


> I believe that discussion of workout programmers should be limited to a natural bodybuilding section.Since on steroids it doesn't even matter what routine you go,you would still grow.In fact you will grow faster without even going to the gym than a natural who has his training and diet on point. Can not find a study about that right now but it is there.


 Not true. The study was done on untrained men and was a short term study. The testosterone merely increased the base of muscularity in the people taking it, and the kinds of gains in lean mass experienced would not continue if one were to keep taking testosterone without training, whilst the person consistently training naturally and eating well would continue to gain mass for a good few years.


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## nWo (Mar 25, 2014)

As for whether a strength-based rep scheme like this is suitable for the bodybuilder - a resounding yes, IMO. Not on its own, but as a component of an effective program. Strength-based set/rep schemes allow for the highest degree of progressive overload, and taking care of that progressive overload at the start of your workouts with a compound exercise, covering the entire body with these heavy progression-friendly compounds throughout your training week, this frees up room for the rest of your exercises to be based more around very strict form, isolation and focusing on stimulation and only having to concern yourself with overloading on these exercises to a minimal degree.


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## Jordan08 (Feb 17, 2014)

nWo said:


> As for whether a strength-based rep scheme like this is suitable for the bodybuilder - a resounding yes, IMO. Not on its own, but as a component of an effective program. Strength-based set/rep schemes allow for the highest degree of progressive overload, and taking care of that progressive overload at the start of your workouts with a compound exercise, covering the entire body with these heavy progression-friendly compounds throughout your training week, this frees up room for the rest of your exercises to be based more around very strict form, isolation and focusing on stimulation and only having to concern yourself with overloading on these exercises to a minimal degree.


 In addition programs like these tell you that this needs to be done. Some guys including me are like to be told. Secondly, working in different rep ranges can take care of degeneration of joints as well. My sole purpose why i shifted to periodizations.


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