# Long term keto dangers?



## BB_999 (Feb 20, 2006)

I'm finding it very easy to stay on keto with a 1.5 day refeed on Sat/Sun. It's working well and I can see me staying on this diet for a while.

Are there any health risks to staying on keto long term and if so what is the maximum recommended safe time period to stay on this type of diet?

Thanks


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## hilly (Jan 19, 2008)

it sent my cholesterol to 9.8. not something i would do again


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## BB_999 (Feb 20, 2006)

hilly said:


> it sent my cholesterol to 9.8. not something i would do again


 What??

I've never heard of anything like this before, is this a common side effect of keto?

Were you on any gear at the time Hilly that could have affected your cholesterol?

I wasn't expecting to get a reply like that.


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## blackbeard (May 3, 2009)

hilly said:


> it sent my cholesterol to 9.8. not something i would do again


i find this a bit shocking,i'm doing very well with a CKD at the moment.

Were the bulk of your fats from saturates?


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## BB_999 (Feb 20, 2006)

blackbeard said:


> i find this a bit shocking,i'm doing very well with a CKD at the moment.
> 
> Were the bulk of your fats from saturates?


When you say 'doing very well' do you mean in terms of fat loss or your cholesterol profile?

My fats come entirely from fish oils, olive oil and almonds. Except on the cheat days of course.


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## blackbeard (May 3, 2009)

Rich-B said:


> When you say 'doing very well' do you mean in terms of fat loss or your cholesterol profile?
> 
> My fats come entirely from fish oils, olive oil and almonds. Except on the cheat days of course.


Very well fat loss,i hadn't even considered cholesterol issues.Like you my fats predominantly come from healthy sources in fact i think i have a peanut butter addiction.


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## BB_999 (Feb 20, 2006)

Hilly's reply has got me concerned now, I'd finally found a diet that works for fat loss and retains muscle and that I find easy to stick to. I should've known it was too good to be true.


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## Lois_Lane (Jul 21, 2009)

Moderate amount of good fats, high amount of protein, a lot of various types of veg that don't have a lot of calories and carbs for the 5 hour window after training = one of the best diets IMO


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## blackbeard (May 3, 2009)

Lois_Lane said:


> Moderate amount of good fats, high amount of protein, a lot of various types of veg that don't have a lot of calories and carbs for the 5 hour window after training = one of the best diets IMO


...And lots of BCAA's!!


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## Slayer_666 (Feb 7, 2009)

Depends on the type of fats you are eating accoording to this article, apparently, saturated fat has a protective effect on the heart and lowers cholesterol. Where as vegetable fats are thought to have an inflammatory effect and oxidise cholesterol - causing atherosclerosis. Heres some quotes:



> So the key to figuring out what causes heart disease is figuring out what causes (or prevents) the oxidation of LDL, not figuring out what causes increased levels of LDL qua LDL. Perhaps the most worrying finding is that one thing that seems to cause the oxidation of LDL is linoleic acid a poly-unsaturated fatty acid found primarily in vegetable oils. Saturated fat, on the other hand, actually seems to have a protective effect.


and



> That makes some sense with population studies too-populations that traditionally consumed large quantities of saturated fats and dietary cholesterol (Pacific Islanders, the Masai in Africa, the French) generally did not rely heavily on vegetable oils; populations that consumed large quantities of vegetable oils and fish oils (Mediterranean populations, the Japanese) generally consumed relatively little saturated fat and cholesterol.
> 
> That also means that eating lots of red meat, milk, and butter or other sources of saturated fat and cholesterol while also eating lots of olive oil, canola oil, and other sources of linoleic acid would be the worst combination possible. It would be a supreme irony if it turned out that one of the primary causes of atherosclerosis and the heart disease associated with it was the olive oil and vegetable oil that public health authorities have been urging a red-meat-eating people to substitute for animal fats for the last sixty years.


Taken from this article:

http://soursaltybittersweet.com/content/things-wont-kill-you-volume-4-saturated-fat-part-ii-cholesterol-myths

Also take a look at these books:

Diet Delusion - Gary Taubes

Both books by Messr's Colpo and Kendrick entitled - The great cholesterol con

Trick and Treat - Barry Groves

Nutrition and physical degeneration - Weston Price

Also both of these physicians, the infamous Dr Atkins and also Dr Lutz treated thousands of patients with obesity issues using a low carb approach. This was with a general lowering of cholesterol, however, it was discussed that those with familial hyperlipidemia will exist. Here is a person who suffers from hyperlipidemia and lost weight on successfully and posted this a forum, they still have higher than normal cholesterol levels - but lower than when they were on a low fat diet:

http://forum.lowcarber.org/showthread.php?t=37418

Hope this helps


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## stl (Apr 12, 2009)

I kept a close eye on my HDL/LDL and never had any issues during my last Keto stint (4 months) though no gear was involved.



> Moderate amount of good fats, high amount of protein, a lot of various types of veg that don't have a lot of calories and carbs for the 5 hour window after training = one of the best diets IMO


This is what i'm following now and i totally agree 

Strategic Carbs are the way forward for me!

100 posts lol


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## Grim Reaper (Feb 21, 2010)

I think your find your not actually doing keto as you dont do refeed on keto, what your doing is actually ckd or carb cycling. I started what i thought was keto but got put in my place by dutch scott :crying: Have been doing ckd for nearly 10 wks now and gonna run till the new year ( But started running t3 + clen cycle this week as things had slowed down ) My only sides have being bunged up and taking loads of meds to sort that out !!!

:thumbup1:


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## stl (Apr 12, 2009)

Question for Hilly

Didn't you follow the Palumbo diet when you had your issues?

i remember a massive thread on this diet,this is what brought me to UKM after a mate recommended i try it.


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## BB_999 (Feb 20, 2006)

Lois_Lane said:


> Moderate amount of good fats, high amount of protein, a lot of various types of veg that don't have a lot of calories and carbs for the 5 hour window after training = one of the best diets IMO


Con, I agree with this mate as I have followed this diet in the past with decent results, I actually lean bulked on it last year, I was on 250mg of Test at the time though. :thumbup1:

Could you answer the following:

1. By veg with few calories do you mean for example; spinach, green salad, peppers, mushrooms, onions etc?

2. Can you eat these veg throughout the day or only in the PWO carb intake window?

3. What would be the caloric breakdown percentages of protein/carbs/fats on the diet you describe above?

Cheers


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## Ironclad (Jun 23, 2009)

Kidney stones,I thought. But people do live on a ketogenic diet, check out Matthewsfriends. com. Guess it may need monitoring from time to time with the ketostix.


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## Lois_Lane (Jul 21, 2009)

Rich-B said:


> Con, I agree with this mate as I have followed this diet in the past with decent results, I actually lean bulked on it last year, I was on 250mg of Test at the time though. :thumbup1:
> 
> Could you answer the following:
> 
> ...


 Veg choices would be anything bar things like potato, yams, excessive amounts of carrots most other things would be completely fine at any time.

Caloric intake for my self as i follow this diet now as i no longer want to gain weight rather get leaner and more muscular.

Current stats 245lb and decently lean (full abbs visible)

400 protein

250 carb (100 after training 100 one hour after training 50 2 hours after that last meal)

for fats 3 tbs olive oil 2 tbs fish oil, 5 whole eggs, lean grass fed beef so between 120-150 grams on an average day.


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## barrowvian (Sep 6, 2008)

Grim Reaper said:


> I think your find your not actually doing keto as you dont do refeed on keto, what your doing is actually ckd or carb cycling. I started what i thought was keto but got put in my place by dutch scott :crying: Have been doing ckd for nearly 10 wks now and gonna run till the new year ( But started running t3 + clen cycle this week as things had slowed down ) My only sides have being bunged up and taking loads of meds to sort that out !!!
> 
> :thumbup1:


Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't a CKD a Keto diet? They are both the exact same thing, people just refer to it either as one of the other. Carb cycling on the other hand is different.

See here for CKD/Keto information; http://www.bodybuildingdungeon.com/forums/nutrition/2156-ckd-cyclical-ketogenic-diet.html

There is more about carb cycling/timed carbs in one of the sticky threads in the losing weight section. CKD/Keto is all about keeping carbs to an absolute minimum. Carb cycling you have low/medium/high carb days.

If your running different diets/cycles then I'd advise that you post up your questions/routine/diet on here as that's what I did and the information that some of these guys have provided is immense and has really helped me out.

BTW, I'm doing a CKD/Keto diet and eat approximately 160g protein a day, 140g fats and 10-20g of carbs. I do this every day and have one refeed a week. I'm personally trying to push the refeed further and further back until I don't need to do it anymore. Doing it this way I lost 3lbs last week, I'm yet to weigh myself this week though so I'll keep my thread updated with that.

Hope this has been of some help though.


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## MissBC (Apr 29, 2008)

dutch_scott said:


> ps. its all carb cycling here,
> 
> grr i go red, u cant have keytones in high ammounts in blood if ur ingesting sugars or low or hi gi carbs even after training, its carb cycling. keto-= keytones. in defecit of available carbs. oxymoron if ur eating them to expect to produce keytones..


LOL VERY TRUE i have seen loads of people posting 'im doing keto' 'my keto diet plan' etc etc only to read and see 'oats post workout' 'banana postworkout'

FFS people KETO = NO CARBS AT ALL (only incidental ones which will come from your nuts and vege)


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## MissBC (Apr 29, 2008)

oh yea forgot to mention REFEEDS ARE NOT REQUIRED EVERY WEEK if you HAVE TO HAVE ONE, then it should only be prob once every 10-14 days. and one or 2 meals not 2 friggen days gggrrrrrr but there is no point really other than people not being able to handle the diet. If your in keto why put your body through going in and out of it, everyone who has done it knows they feel **** for the first few days going into keto why go through that every week


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## chrisj22 (Mar 22, 2006)

Dutch,

Are you planning to follow a similar keto diet that you recently did for your assault on the UKBFF scene in 2011?


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## rs007 (May 28, 2007)

dutch_scott said:


> plus please also note how long it takes to deplete the liver from these refeed days, based on this
> 
> bbuilderrs already lean ie furnace burning take 3-5days to deplete when they r trying, so why do guys refeed wen they cant possibly then slip into keto for, its avg 4-5 days, oh look 3 days in keto beforee they fill out again.
> 
> ...


Spot on. I noticed this - if I wasn't going clean through a weekend - so 2 weeks between refeeds - it didn't work nearly as effective because most of that first week is re-depletion. As you say about carb ingestion, you also wont get into keto if you have an appreciable amount of glycogen sitting stored.

Targeted keto, with carbs around the workout, just lacks sense and logic to me on so many levels, even the name - like you say, you won't be in true ketosis, it is simply lower calorie with timed carbs - might still work... but keto it is not.


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## rs007 (May 28, 2007)

MissBC said:


> oh yea forgot to mention REFEEDS ARE NOT REQUIRED EVERY WEEK if you HAVE TO HAVE ONE, then it should only be prob once every 10-14 days. and one or 2 meals not 2 friggen days gggrrrrrr but there is no point really other than people not being able to handle the diet. If your in keto why put your body through going in and out of it, everyone who has done it knows they feel **** for the first few days going into keto why go through that every week


I am a notorious refeeder, 2ish days plus sometimes - and even I curbed it on keto to an evening - hard - but stop-starting the keto process was harder on mind and body... once in it, stay in it. More muscle preservation that way too.


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## MissBC (Apr 29, 2008)

whats the point eating carbs fats are so much better, if you want to eat something naughty have some bacon or cheese aslong as it fits into your cals. why risk going in and out and in and out of keto all he friggen time, things take time to work and it will take a week or 2 for your body to get into full swing with keto.

at the mo i eat, turkey rashers, eggs, nuts, protein, chicken, little bit of mozorella cheese on my salad and vege.. nothing else (oh maybe some lean mince on occasion)


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## BB_999 (Feb 20, 2006)

I always thought the weekly refeeds were necessary to kick start the metabolism after a week of it slowing down with no carbs??

I could easily go 2 weeks without carbs if not more.


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## DB (Oct 31, 2003)

Agree with Scott, many people want to be a park of the keto club but weeks on end without cheats they just can't handle!


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## chrisj22 (Mar 22, 2006)

I know there should be literally no carbs on a keto diet, but whey shakes like 90+ etc have 3.5g per serving - would that slow the process down if having 2-3 shakes a day with ONLY those carbs in??


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## blackbeard (May 3, 2009)

rs007 said:


> I am a notorious refeeder, 2ish days plus sometimes - and even I curbed it on keto to an evening - hard - but stop-starting the keto process was harder on mind and body... once in it, stay in it. More muscle preservation that way too.


Agreed, i was re-feeding once a week (CKD) and only because i made a pig of myself at the all-inclusive buffet on a recent holiday i decided to forgo the weekly re-feed.I expected to flatten out in the second week but i've stayed energized and full without a re-feed for 15 days now.

The re-feed isn't necessary.Also i only noticed the metallic tasting breath (an indication of ketosis...i think) after 9 days of avoiding carbs.So i'm guessing it took me over a week before ketosis was achieved!


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## rs007 (May 28, 2007)

chrisj22 said:


> I know there should be literally no carbs on a keto diet, but whey shakes like 90+ etc have 3.5g per serving - would that slow the process down if having 2-3 shakes a day with ONLY those carbs in??


You can't get literally nothing in realistic terms, but under a certain level, your body will suck that carb intake up to make glucose up for brain function, and get the rest form dietary protein if need be - so ketosis will still be running rampant to fuel your muscles.

Common figures is under 50g of carbs per day (and that isnt a case of BOOM I ma allowed 50g so I'll have this candy bar then nowt - evenly spaced to reduce impact) will get you in there intially, later you might need to drop this to sub 30 to keep in there, as your body adapts.

I found it really easy to keep it as low as 20, that was counting everything, incidental carbs in shakes etc.


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## chrisj22 (Mar 22, 2006)

rs007 said:


> You can't get literally nothing in realistic terms, but under a certain level, your body will suck that carb intake up to make glucose up for brain function, and get the rest form dietary protein if need be - so ketosis will still be running rampant to fuel your muscles.
> 
> Common figures is under 50g of carbs per day (and that isnt a case of BOOM I ma allowed 50g so I'll have this candy bar then nowt - evenly spaced to reduce impact) will get you in there intially, later you might need to drop this to sub 30 to keep in there, as your body adapts.
> 
> I found it really easy to keep it as low as 20, that was counting everything, incidental carbs in shakes etc.


Thanks mate.

Makes sense


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## Lois_Lane (Jul 21, 2009)

Loving the comment from Scott about the amount of time needed to actually need a refeed. I was working with one guy for a show he was doing this summer and this guy thought he needed massive carb ups every 5 days or so. Eventually i grew tired of argueing with him and about a week later he had to pull out from doing the show. (funny thing is this guy is actually a guy who has won open weight classes at shows in my area) Some people never learn.


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## hilly (Jan 19, 2008)

sorry guys in spain so only getting on here every now and again. i was on gear. as an experiment i droped the fats down to 50g and uped my carbs to 150 and went back in 5 weeks. doc said cholesterol wont have changed much as it was definatly gear related.

result ---- total cholesterol was 4.9 LMAO doc just stuterd foool.

my diet was basically eggs, meat, reflex instant whey, brocoli 3 x a day 100g, brazil nuts with shakes 25g twice a day and natty peanut butter with a shake once a day. i was having 2 to 3 shakes a day and 3 to 4 solid meals.

people say they have great results and cant see it happening. well when was the last time u got bloods done after 9 weeks solid on a keto? i would never have known either if i didnt get them done.

total were 300p, 105f, sub30 carbs


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## rs007 (May 28, 2007)

hilly said:


> sorry guys in spain so only getting on here every now and again. i was on gear. as an experiment i droped the fats down to 50g and uped my carbs to 150 and went back in 5 weeks. doc said cholesterol wont have changed much as it was definatly gear related.
> 
> result ---- total cholesterol was 4.9 LMAO doc just stuterd foool.
> 
> ...


My argument there would be makes sense - so many more fatty acids flowing around, being as that is the crux of the process.

However, I don't believe it has been adequately proven that high cholesterol does all these evil nasty things the media portray?

Sure the medical community by and large agrees, but lets not forget the amount of mistakes and u turns they have made over the years? Cigarettes? Healthy for you, get em in... 50 years later... oh sh1t

And, Prodiver rightly points out that LOW cholesterol is often seen in many more serious conditions that high.

I still haven't got my copy of the Dr Kendricks book on the subject, off to order it right now in fact.


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## Aftershock (Jan 28, 2004)

hilly said:


> it sent my cholesterol to 9.8. not something i would do again


The trouble is that on its own doesn't tell us much.

Re LDL levels.

"LDL particles vary in size and density, and studies have shown that a pattern that has more small dense LDL particles, called Pattern B, equates to a higher risk factor for coronary heart disease (CHD) than does a pattern with more of the larger and less dense LDL particles (Pattern A). This is because the smaller particles are more easily able to penetrate the endothelium. Pattern I, for intermediate, indicates that most LDL particles are very close in size to the normal gaps in the endothelium (26 nm).

The correspondence between Pattern B and CHD has been suggested by some in the medical community to be stronger than the correspondence between the LDL number measured in the standard lipid profile test. Tests to measure these LDL subtype patterns have been more expensive and not widely available, so the common lipid profile test has been used more commonly."

What commonly happens is that total LDL increases a lot on a keto, but the majority of it will be the large "puffy" LDL which is not a risk factor. The small "bad" LDL count will often decrease.

Of course your GP probably wont know the difference or even test for it, so you will get told the diet is unhealthy.

Ironically Statins only reduce the large puffy kind, does anybody smell a conspiracy here lol


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## stl (Apr 12, 2009)

> Of course your GP probably wont know the difference or even test for it, so you will get told the diet is unhealthy.


Good post - that is exactly the problem.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35058896/ns/health-heart_health

LDL comes in four basic forms: a big, fluffy form known as large LDL, and three increasingly dense forms known as medium, small, and very small LDL. A diet high in saturated fat mainly boosts the numbers of large-LDL particles, while a low-fat diet high in carbohydrates propagates the smaller forms. The big, fluffy particles are largely benign, while the small, dense versions keep lipid-science researchers awake at night.


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## kevo (Aug 7, 2003)

Guys, whats the best idea PWO shake wise then on a keto diet? Simple whey, BCAA and creatine?


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## hilly (Jan 19, 2008)

to be honest i wasnt fussed, i got them done due to feeling like utter crap once id been keto for 8 weeks, i no con has experienced this as well were u tend to hit a wall.

i think the way u used it rams is spot on just for a shortish spell


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## Aftershock (Jan 28, 2004)

kevo said:


> Guys, whats the best idea PWO shake wise then on a keto diet? Simple whey, BCAA and creatine?


If I was doing a flat out keto with fat loss in mind I wouldnt even take whey. I will spike insulin. You are better off sticking to a solid meal of meat and vegies PWO.


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## MissBC (Apr 29, 2008)

Aftershock said:


> If I was doing a flat out keto with fat loss in mind I wouldnt even take whey. I will spike insulin. You are better off sticking to a solid meal of meat and vegies PWO.


do u think its best to have all solid meals rather than any shakes?


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## kevo (Aug 7, 2003)

Aftershock said:


> If I was doing a flat out keto with fat loss in mind I wouldnt even take whey. I will spike insulin. You are better off sticking to a solid meal of meat and vegies PWO.


Cheers Jase. Its not for this time round but I fancy a stint in ketosis when I am ready to cut!


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## Aftershock (Jan 28, 2004)

MissBC said:


> do u think its best to have all solid meals rather than any shakes?


Purely from an insulin management standpoint when trying to diet then yes.

Liquid meals or shakes will spike insulin.

Whey protein for example while theoretically allowed on a keto, by virtue of its fast absorption, is converted to glucose very easily though gluconeogenesis.


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## God (Sep 3, 2009)

Aftershock said:


> Purely from an insulin management standpoint when trying to diet then yes.
> 
> Liquid meals or shakes will spike insulin.
> 
> Whey protein for example while theoretically allowed on a keto, by virtue of its fast absorption, is converted to glucose very easily though gluconeogenesis.


Interesting, didn't realise that :thumbup1:


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