# Squat video form check please...?



## The Sweeney (May 8, 2014)

I posted this at the end of an injury thread and I think it'll get missed so forgive the repost....

I'm suffering hip flexor pain on my squat and in trying to fathom out why, I took a couple of videos for appraisal.

I'm now following the Starting strength routine and asked Mark himself to take a look at the video's and he pointed out that I'm approx 8" too deep and my back is rounding into significant flexion at the bottom. He didn't elaborate whether the flexion was an additional problem, or a result of simply going too deep.

He's a busy guy and inundated with form requests so I didn't labour the point with him, plus I don't think he was too impressed with the quality of my video angles - my bad.

Anyhoo - I'd appreciate some other views - not that I don't accept Mark's depth comment, I do, but I'd like a little more in depth review of the flexion at the bottom in relation to the depth and any other observations that stand out as wrong to help me improve.

I'm also aware I'm looking up/forwards too much and not more towards the floor in front of me.

These are just my light warm up sets - I can't go heavy as I'm not very strong yet and am still trying to work out the cause of the groin/hip flexor pain.

Empty bar -






40kg -






Also, whilst I'm down there luv, feel free to critique my DL - sorry about the crappy camera position cutting my head off. I am trying to keep my back as straight as possible. More knee bend/quad engagement in the first off the floor part of the lift maybe?

90 kg -






Thanks in advance for any feedback and sorry the vids aren't better.


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## MRSTRONG (Apr 18, 2009)

vids are fine it`s the squatting/deadlifting in them that are terrible .

@MattGriff is your man on tech


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## funkdocta (May 29, 2013)

squats are ok until the bottom and coming back... your back gives in and you sort of come up in a good morning motion. I would say try to keep that back straight and drive up with your legs/hips.


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## The Sweeney (May 8, 2014)

funkdocta said:


> squats are ok until the bottom and coming back... your back gives in and you sort of come up in a good morning motion. I would say try to keep that back straight and drive up with your legs/hips.


Thanks for that - I was consciously trying to drive up with my hips first to make sure they were doing the driving, then bring the back up fractionally later - is this wrong?

Is the flexion a result of going too deep, as I simply can't keep my back any straighter at that depth? i.e, if I keep it to just breaking parallel, will that cure the flexion?

What issues can be seen on the DL? Where do I need to improve / change?


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## MRSTRONG (Apr 18, 2009)

good series to watch if doing wide stance


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## Quintillius (Jun 19, 2013)

Empty bar/Squat 1:

Pros: You have very good range of motion for squats and also good control on the descending phase.

Cons: 1) From the moment you reach ATG level your lower back/gluts begin to tuck down and under. 2) You also raise your heels slightly. 3) You begin to lean further forward at the lowest phase.

What you can do:

1) Stretch your calfs, glutes and soleus > these muscles if tight cause the tuck in your glutes when you reach lowest phase of the squat. Also... you do not need to go ATG! Anything parallel to just a bit lower than parallel activates the main muscle groups.

2) Could also be caused by tightness so stretch the calfs and soleus. Also try to stay a bit more upright and drive from the heels on the drive up.

3) When descending push your knees outward and try to keep your chest up.

Same goes for your 40kg video.

How wide do you have your feet? How tall are you?

Try squatting with your feet slightly wider than shoulder width and see how it feels. Not everyone needs to squat with narrow stance as not everyone is built the same. I'll critique your DL vid a bit later as I am doing this during my work time :lol:


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## The Sweeney (May 8, 2014)

Quintillius said:


> Empty bar/Squat 1:
> 
> Pros: You have very good range of motion for squats and also good control on the descending phase.
> 
> ...


Excellent feedback, thanks.

I'm 6'4" and have a longish back rather than long legs, pathetically weak and skinny fat, 14.5 stone and 23% BF (come and get it, girls)

Three weeks ago I couldn't even crouch my own body weight and stand up again without either falling over or reaching for assistance such was the dormant state of my body having been slumped over a desk for 10+ years.

My feet (sorry the vid doesn't show this) are heels at, or ever so slightly wider than shoulder width and angled approx 40 degree outwards so they are not quite 90 degrees apart, but far from facing forwards.

The reason for me going so low is that everywhere I look, I always hear go lower, go lower, your too high you pussy, I could park my car under your butt etc, etc so I decided from day one, squat one, that I'd go as low as my body could possibly allow whilst the weight was very small - I guess there is some BS bravado about going ATG?

If I try and pause my videos as I just break parallel, am I right in saying the hip flexion/butt wink isn't a problem at that stage?

Where do I need to be looking? The video up there says above horizontal, Rippetoe says below horizontal - confused.com

Again, is the leaning too far forwards and coming off my heels connected with the depth?

The leaning forwards as I push up is me trying to drive from the hip and let my back follow momentarily afterwards to ensure I'm pushing from my hips - am I doing it wrong?

The feedback is gold mine stuff and I'm very grateful. In real life I'm very shy and introvert so find it impossible to ask strangers for help in the gym, hence I train alone. I'd love to be able to afford PT, but that's not possible at the moment so the internetz is my only source of feedback.

I look forward to any answers you can offer and your DL feedback

Cheers.


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## i.am.ahab. (Sep 4, 2014)

i have the very same problem as you mate,as soon as i pass parallel my butt tucks under,still havent got a solid answer why this happens.

i'm 6'3 with really long legs,im starting to think this could be a factor..

anyways,im happy enough at the minute hitting parallel.


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## The Sweeney (May 8, 2014)

i.am.ahab. said:


> i have the very same problem as you mate,as soon as i pass parallel my butt tucks under,still havent got a solid answer why this happens.
> 
> i'm 6'3 with really long legs,im starting to think this could be a factor..
> 
> anyways,im happy enough at the minute hitting parallel.


At least depth isn't a problem for me - although without form correction could see me in a wheelchair when the weight goes up so perhaps it is a problem!

Looking froward to more feedback.


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## gaz90 (Jun 19, 2014)

6'4??! holy crap

theres a lot going on there. think your height which is confusing me too!

-you're squatting very deep and when you do, you're getting what is called 'butt wink' by the yanks or as i like to call it 'the sh*tting dog' (the lower back losing its arch, which is a bad thing).

-you seem to be keeping your chest and head up well until you hit that big depth, then u just get pitched forward and it resembles a goodmorning slightly.

-you're even coming off your heels it the bottom of the squat too.

-you're descending down into the squat too fast, once you try to drive back up, you will get twisted out of the 'groove' and technique will suffer. you must control the descent.

-start the squat by rocking the hips back, then bending at the knees and descending into the squat. practice this

what id do with you is bring your squatting stance wider, much wider. I'd be surprised it this didnt tidy your squat up. Box squats in fact, set at parallel.

Box squats, when done correctly, will correct squatting technique and improve strength very well. so go on elitefts.com and learn about the box squat, theres articles and videos, everything you should know.


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## The Sweeney (May 8, 2014)

gaz90 said:


> 6'4??! holy crap
> 
> theres a lot going on there. think your height which is confusing me too!
> 
> ...


Thanks for that - apart from the decent control, if I just broke parallel and drove up more from my hips, would I be closer to the mark?

Seems the depth is causing most of the issues?

Any thoughts on the DL?

Appreciate the feedback.

So -break at the hips first, slower more controlled descent, keep chest up, push knees apart, bounce off the tight hams sooner/higher before the butt wink occurs, keep back straight and drive more from the hips/heels.....?

EDIT: Could the depth have cause my hip flexor injury?


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## 12 gauge (Jul 16, 2011)

Check out some of this guys vids

This one deals with the "butt wink" i.e your lower back rounding at the bottom


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## MattGriff (Aug 21, 2012)

Pretty straightforward errors.

Your upper back is not tight and neither is your lower back - when the lower back is correctly locked the glutes cannot roll under.

When the upper back is tight it holds the chest nice and high.

The simplest way to think about it is torso like a Gorilla, legs like a frog - back super tight (after a proper squat session your back should be aching as much as your legs), chest out and high, weight on the outside of the foot and towards the heel, break the hips backwards and push the knees out to the sides like a frog.

Try this simple bits and it will solve most of your squat issues pretty quickly


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## gaz90 (Jun 19, 2014)

The Sweeney said:


> Thanks for that - apart from the decent control, if I just broke parallel and drove up more from my hips, would I be closer to the mark? *yea can do, try cutting the depth to parallel and see how it goes*
> 
> Seems the depth is causing most of the issues? *thats my best guess*
> 
> ...


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## SK50 (Apr 7, 2013)

You know what, it doesn't look too bad for beginning weights. You'll likely just improve with practice. But, You have a bad buttwink on the squat. Reduce depth until you gain more hip flexibility. Some will argue a bit of buttwink is OK but yours is too much rounding.

Also you can't really post a squat form check with 40kg because it's not even enough weight to correctly counterbalance you into normal form.


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## The Sweeney (May 8, 2014)

MattGriff said:


> Pretty straightforward errors.
> 
> Your upper back is not tight and neither is your lower back - when the lower back is correctly locked the glutes cannot roll under.
> 
> ...


Thanks very much, I appreciate the feedback - the trick is keeping the back tense - something which I'm consciously trying to do, but obviously failing at. I've managed to pinch my shoulders to provide a muscular shelf for the bat to sit on and it 'feels' like my back is tense but clearly not. Are they are tips, tricks or techniques to feeling your back tense so I can be more conscious of it?



SK50 said:


> You know what, it doesn't look too bad for beginning weights. You'll likely just improve with practice. But, You have a bad buttwink on the squat. Reduce depth until you gain more hip flexibility. Some will argue a bit of buttwink is OK but yours is too much rounding.
> 
> Also you can't really post a squat form check with 40kg because it's not even enough weight to correctly counterbalance you into normal form.


I understand what you're saying.

The weight is the issue as I'm just starting and a few weeks ago couldn't even squat my own body weight. In my current terrible form, I can just about get 50kg out the hole (too deep a hole obviously) and didn't want to increase the weight without getting my form better first. Plus the hip flexor pain is preventing me putting any more weight on so need to find out what's going on there, too.

Can anyone clear up the where to look question as there seems to be differing opinions between Rippetoe's look slightly downwards and forwards to others saying look up slightly.


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## SK50 (Apr 7, 2013)

The Sweeney said:


> Can anyone clear up the where to look question as there seems to be differing opinions between Rippetoe's look slightly downwards and forwards to others saying look up slightly.


Either. Difference of opinions on this will always exist. As long as the neck spine is neutral then you should be OK. Some people feel looking up helps this. Hyperextension is probably OK if it helps keep lower back position correct but not ideal, pro oly athletes seem to look up while squatting quite a bit on youtube.

Others can look down at the floor 6ft ahead of them and keep good form. Bending the neck down is probably not OK. Look down with the eyes.

I look down at the floor 6ft ahead with a neutral neck like Wendler suggests.


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## The Sweeney (May 8, 2014)

SK50 said:


> Either. Difference of opinions on this will always exist. As long as the neck spine is neutral then you should be OK. Some people feel looking up helps this. Hyperextension is probably OK if it helps keep lower back position correct but not ideal, pro oly athletes seem to look up while squatting quite a bit on youtube.
> 
> Others can look down at the floor 6ft ahead of them and keep good form. Bending the neck down is probably not OK. Look down with the eyes.
> 
> I look down at the floor 6ft ahead with a neutral neck like Wendler suggests.


Cool, thanks.

Just need to work out how to 'feel' my back tense and not let it round, or at least not go to low where it starts to round. Form not depth seems to be the order of the day.

I'm squatting again tonight so will give it another go.

Appreciate any hits and tips of back tensing and straightness.


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## i.am.ahab. (Sep 4, 2014)

this helps me keep a tight back..well upper back anyways,

i let the bar down a little lower than where it usually sits on my back...bring my hands in as close to my shoulders as possible..tuck the elbows in and up,so your forearm as almost vertical to the bar.

i do get a little wrist pain,but it has helped me stay upright/straight bac, till i at least hit vertical.

interested to see any more opinions/tips.


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## The Sweeney (May 8, 2014)

i.am.ahab. said:


> this helps me keep a tight back..well upper back anyways,
> 
> i let the bar down a little lower than where it usually sits on my back...bring my hands in as close to my shoulders as possible..tuck the elbows in and up,so your forearm as almost vertical to the bar.
> 
> ...


I'll give this a try tonight along with all the other stuff I need to remember and report my findings later on tonight - from either a wheelchair, or top of the mountain.... place your bets!


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## scott08 (Feb 14, 2014)

most of what i would say has already been said. one more thing to add for the depth and rounding in the squats i to get your upper back and lower back tight and locked in, start the descent dropping your body between hips and as soon as you feel the tightness in your lower back going/ it rounding under, drive back up. this point may not even be parallel, but that will be your stretch reflex with your current flexibility. if its above parralel, just keep doing it to solidify the movement, and try and sit a little deeper bit by bit. after a while you should be able to squat quite comfortably to depth


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## The Sweeney (May 8, 2014)

scott08 said:


> most of what i would say has already been said. one more thing to add for the depth and rounding in the squats i to get your upper back and lower back tight and locked in, start the descent dropping your body between hips and as soon as you feel the tightness in your lower back going/ it rounding under, drive back up. this point may not even be parallel, but that will be your stretch reflex with your current flexibility. if its above parralel, just keep doing it to solidify the movement, and try and sit a little deeper bit by bit. after a while you should be able to squat quite comfortably to depth


Gotcha - just hope I'll be able to 'feel' when the back rounds.


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## The Sweeney (May 8, 2014)

Back from the gym, video in hand....

Tried to remember everything I've been advised and on the last set (the one in the video) I got it about as together as was going to happen tonight.

Note descent speed and control, wider stance, reduced depth, straight back(?), reduced 'good morning effect'...?






Please - your opinions on any improvements and areas that still need work?

I was trying to lock my back and tense my core as if my life depended on it - dunno if it has helped?

Couple of personal observations - for some reason I felt I was more on my toes and less on my heels - why would this be?

Despite 5 mins warm up on the cross trainer and numerous stretching exercises etc, my hip flexors are still screaming at me and making stairs a challenge... answers on a postcard.

Fire away.


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## sneeky_dave (Apr 2, 2013)

The Sweeney said:


> Back from the gym, video in hand....
> 
> Tried to remember everything I've been advised and on the last set (the one in the video) I got it about as together as was going to happen tonight.
> 
> ...


I may be talking rubbish but why do you stand nice and straight and then bend yourself forward?

Generally looking far better this time round. I'll await the more knowledgeable to go into detail.


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## The Sweeney (May 8, 2014)

sneeky_dave said:


> I may be talking rubbish but why do you stand nice and straight and then bend yourself forward?
> 
> Generally looking far better this time round. I'll await the more knowledgeable to go into detail.


If you mean before I start the descent, I'm arching my back and tensing it in a semi hyper extended form to set it solid so it doesn't round (as much)

Or are you referring to leaning forwards during the movement?


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## sneeky_dave (Apr 2, 2013)

The Sweeney said:


> If you mean before I start the descent, I'm arching my back and tensing it in a semi hyper extended form to set it solid so it doesn't round (as much)
> 
> Or are you referring to leaning forwards during the movement?


Just beforehand. I may well be wrong, it just didn't look right, I'm sure people will shed some light


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## freddee (Mar 2, 2009)

Not read all the replies, here is my take, I watched you going down and straight away your knees went over your toes, you went very deep but your heels are coming off the floor, how can you press through your heels when they are in mid air?! over emphasise your sitting motion, keeping the knees back, keep the arch and press through the heels, this should also help your balance.... also if you are in a squat rack use it, the bars were far too low, if you fail you can leave the weight on the rack bars and walk out!


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## Muckshifter (Apr 5, 2014)

sneeky_dave said:


> I may be talking rubbish but why do you stand nice and straight and then bend yourself forward?
> 
> Generally looking far better this time round. I'll await the more knowledgeable to go into detail.


much better mate would say your third rep was best and you lost it a bit on the fourth maybe worth checking out mark bell supertraining on YouTube he hundreds of videos that's worth checking out


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## The Sweeney (May 8, 2014)

freddee said:


> Not read all the replies, here is my take, I watched you going down and straight away your knees went over your toes, you went very deep but your heels are coming off the floor, how can you press through your heels when they are in mid air?! over emphasise your sitting motion, keeping the knees back, keep the arch and press through the heels, this should also help your balance.... also if you are in a squat rack use it, the bars were far too low, if you fail you can leave the weight on the rack bars and walk out!


Are you referring to my original videos at the top of the thread or the one I posted tonight?

To keep balance, and my shins more upright (sitting?) am I to assume this will require me to bend forwards a little more, as If I 'sit' more, I'll fall over backwards wom't I, unless I counterbalance by shifting the weight forwards by bending over more?

If that's b0llocks, excuse my ignorance.

I'm finding it REALLY hard to work out what's what.


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## The Sweeney (May 8, 2014)

Muckshifter said:


> much better mate would say your third rep was best and you lost it a bit on the fourth maybe worth checking out mark bell supertraining on YouTube he hundreds of videos that's worth checking out


Cheers, will do.

Got to work out a way to sift the weight over my heels without falling backwards as (apart from the screaming hip pain throughout most of the ROM) it was only the weight off my heels that I 'felt' was wrong.

What I'd do for a couple of sessions with a quality PT who knew his squatting onions and could point out my issues there and then.


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## Mingster (Mar 25, 2011)

Prepare to play your video on your computer, but stand a clear plastic ruler on end against your computer screen. Align the ruler with the start position of the bar before your first squat. The top of the ruler will be on the bar, the bottom of the ruler should be roughly in the middle of your foot.

Now play the video. The bar should go straight up and down the edge of the ruler. In your case it gradually edges forward as you descend. This is because a). you're not sitting back into the squat enough, and, B) . you allow your upper body to lean too far forward.

As previously mentioned, I would practice squatting back onto a box. Not only will this give you the correct depth every rep, it will also allow you to sit back into the squat with confidence. Keep monitoring your form using the ruler gauge until the bar follows a vertical path.


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## Muckshifter (Apr 5, 2014)

Make sure you force your knees out to follow the same path as your toes which should be pointing slightly outwards and at 6 4 me personally would think parallel is deep enough without going atg also fill your gut with as much air as possible and keep everything tight am sure more experienced lifters will chime in and am sure in time you'll get it just keep plugging away bud


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## The Sweeney (May 8, 2014)

Mingster said:


> Prepare to play your video on your computer, but stand a clear plastic ruler on end against your computer screen. Align the ruler with the start position of the bar before your first squat. The top of the ruler will be on the bar, the bottom of the ruler should be roughly in the middle of your foot.
> 
> Now play the video. The bar should go straight up and down the edge of the ruler. In your case it gradually edges forward as you descend. This is because a). you're not sitting back into the squat enough, and, B) . you allow your upper body to lean too far forward.
> 
> As previously mentioned, I would practice squatting back onto a box. Not only will this give you the correct depth every rep, it will also allow you to sit back into the squat with confidence. Keep monitoring your form using the ruler gauge until the bar follows a vertical path.


Thanks, I'll do that now...

How do I keep balance by sitting back more? I feel like I'll fall over backwards - what body position adjustment counters this?


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## The Sweeney (May 8, 2014)

Muckshifter said:


> Make sure you force your knees out to follow the same path as your toes which should be pointing slightly outwards and at 6 4 me personally would think parallel is deep enough without going atg also fill your gut with as much air as possible and keep everything tight am sure more experienced lifters will chime in and am sure in time you'll get it just keep plugging away bud


Maybe it was something else, but i felt that by pushing my knees out over my feet made me come onto my toes more - or is that something else?


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## Muckshifter (Apr 5, 2014)

Not forwards mate outwards don't let them collapse in


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## Mingster (Mar 25, 2011)

The Sweeney said:


> Thanks, I'll do that now...
> 
> How do I keep balance by sitting back more? I feel like I'll fall over backwards - what body position adjustment counters this?


I'm sure I've posted this video for you before. You need to be able to squat down with your feet flat on the floor and your weight going through your heels. Lack of flexibility prevents many people from doing this and they lean forward taking the weight on their knees to compensate. If you can't do this straight off - and most people can't - do it with your back up against a wall to start with. You should be able to sit in this position for 5 minutes or more in comfort...


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## gaz90 (Jun 19, 2014)

The Sweeney said:


> Thanks, I'll do that now...
> 
> How do I keep balance by sitting back more? I feel like I'll fall over backwards - what body position adjustment counters this?


start by pushing the hips back, then bend the knees. this will get you sitting back more. keep the weight on your heels, constantly push the knees outwards while 'spreading the floor' with your feet and keep your chest up and not rolled down facing the floor.


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## The Sweeney (May 8, 2014)

Thanks everyone - I'll keep trying to apply all I'm learning.

Mingster - yes, you kindly did post that video before - I couldn't find it again so I'll take another look. I know there's not a chance in hell I can squat without a bar and keep my heels flat on the floor without instantly toppling over backwards - even stretching my arms out in front of my sees me on my toes...

Much work to do.


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## Mingster (Mar 25, 2011)

The Sweeney said:


> Thanks everyone - I'll keep trying to apply all I'm learning.
> 
> Mingster - yes, you kindly did post that video before - I couldn't find it again so I'll take another look. I know there's not a chance in hell I can squat without a bar and keep my heels flat on the floor without instantly toppling over backwards - even stretching my arms out in front of my sees me on my toes...
> 
> Much work to do.


As I say. Lean against a wall at first. Stand with your heels about 15 inches away from the wall and squat back until your back contacts the wall. Then slide down into a squat keeping your heels in contact with the floor. This will speed up developing your flexibility. Eventually you can remove the wall from the equation

You may need to stand a little further from the wall as you are pretty tall if I remember rightly...


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## The Sweeney (May 8, 2014)

Mingster said:


> As I say. Lean against a wall at first. Stand with your heels about 15 inches away from the wall and squat back until your back contacts the wall. Then slide down into a squat keeping your heels in contact with the floor. This will speed up developing your flexibility. Eventually you can remove the wall from the equation
> 
> You may need to stand a little further from the wall as you are pretty tall if I remember rightly...


Cheers, will do. Yeah, I'm rather long at 6'4"

Would love to know why my hip flexors are hurting so bad though.


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## The Sweeney (May 8, 2014)

Is this guy on the right track?


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## freddee (Mar 2, 2009)

keep your knees behind your toes, just try it, if it helps it helps, but in both your balance was poor, breathing has to do with that and your eccentric was to fast, it will take time, the one thing is it is very deep maybe too deep, if your heels are coming off, just practice, just keep your arch, and a good stretch out will help prior to squatting.


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## freddee (Mar 2, 2009)

The Sweeney said:


> Is this guy on the right track?


that explains it well....


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## The Sweeney (May 8, 2014)

Am I leaning too far forwards? i.e my back is more horizontal than it should be?


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## sneeky_dave (Apr 2, 2013)

The Sweeney said:


> Am I leaning too far forwards? i.e my back is more horizontal than it should be?


Try squatting facing a wall, you should be able to go down and back up without your nose touching the wall. The way your doing it your moving further forward the lower you go. As mingster says the bar should be moving straight up and down.


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## MattGriff (Aug 21, 2012)

freddee said:


> keep your knees behind your toes.


This is actually bollocks, all over the internet but it is relation to a power squat and a power squat only.

During an olympic high bar squat, a front squat, a zercher squat, pistol squats the list goes on pushing the knees forward is what keeps your hips close to your heels allowing the torso to stay upright.

The longer the femur is in relation to the torso the more it will be required - simple physics dictates this, otherwise as the hips move back the only way to maintain a center of gravity over the feet is to lean forward.

Pushing the knees forward actually engages the quads more, if you break parallel the force is transferred to the glutes and hamstrings and is perfectly safe for the knees, most people in most gyms squat high or use middle of the thigh "parallel" as a guide, this forces the pressure directly to the knee and is bloody stupid.


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## The Sweeney (May 8, 2014)

MattGriff said:


> This is actually bollocks, all over the internet but it is relation to a power squat and a power squat only.
> 
> During an olympic high bar squat, a front squat, a zercher squat, pistol squats the list goes on pushing the knees forward is what keeps your hips close to your heels allowing the torso to stay upright.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the info... second picture down - which one is correct as I feel I'm more the pic on the right whereas the left hand version seems to be achieving what I'm searching for?

Looking at those pictures, the fact that my bar doesn't descend vertically, that I'm leaning on my toes etc, all point to me not being vertical enough in my torso - or have I got that wrong?

I seem to be bending over too far?

I'm not deliberately trying to bend over, it just happens naturally and next time I squat, I'll have to pay attention to keeping my torso more vertical and see what happens. Part of me expects to fall over backwards - the othe rpart of me expects my ankles to scream "You what now?"

I totally get, hear, and take on board all the comments of sit further back, put your weight over your heels, keep your back straight, drive your knees apart etc and I REALLY try - I desperately want to get my form sorted so I can begin to add weight and not tear my groin apart just squatting 50kg, but when I'm there, by myself with nobody to critique and correct what I'm doing there and then, I'm finding it really difficult to actually physically do what my Brain knows it wants to.

I'm thinking it might be a wise investment to spend some money of a few sessions with a high quality, experienced and knowledgeable strength coach - but where does one find such an individual? Most of the PT's I see round gyms I've ever been to are, well... lets just say I doubt they've ever taken anyone to the Olympics...

Would love so advice., as I'm worried I can ready every book, watch every video, but in the end might need someone by my side to actually teach me the moves.

Trying the power clean for the first time on Friday night was 'interesting'... but that's another thread.


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## MattGriff (Aug 21, 2012)

The Sweeney said:


> Thanks for the info... second picture down - which one is correct as I feel I'm more the pic on the right whereas the left hand version seems to be achieving what I'm searching for?
> 
> Looking at those pictures, the fact that my bar doesn't descend vertically, that I'm leaning on my toes etc, all point to me not being vertical enough in my torso - or have I got that wrong?
> 
> ...


If you are interested in anything other than powerlifting i.e any other sport, strongman, throwing, football, rugby, matrial arts etc then the first picture - the high bar Olympic back squat is far more athletic than the power squat, more explosive, balanced and with more carryover to everything else.


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## gaz90 (Jun 19, 2014)

MattGriff said:


> If you are interested in anything other than powerlifting i.e any other sport, strongman, throwing, football, rugby, matrial arts etc then the first picture - the high bar Olympic back squat is far more athletic than the power squat, more explosive, balanced and with more carryover to everything else.


id disagree with that statement. why do you think that?


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## MattGriff (Aug 21, 2012)

gaz90 said:


> id disagree with that statement. why do you think that?


It is a more natural position, the stance or variants of are found in sport, Olympic weightlifters time and time again in studies have been proven to be far more explosive than Powerlifters - this is pivotal for combat, sprints etc

Why do you think such people as Sir Chris Hoy Oly squat? Why do NFL linemen not have a super wide stance in the scrimmage? Why do rugby props not adopt this wide stance? Wrestlers, throwers etc the list goes on and on - why is it that the biggest legitimate raw squatter on Earth Malinachiev is a narrow/medium stance squatter and time and time again the 'Westside' crew produce videos of high squats?

Louie Simmons talks an awful lot of nonsense made popular by the internet, he is bio mechanically incorrect in what he says regarding muscle activation. This one is pretty easy to back up too, his super wide sitting back box squats for example is according to him one of the greatest hamstring and glute developers - why that being the case are the poorest lifts out of Westside always the deadlift? Why do they not challenge for the deadlift records in the GPC, WPC and IPF?

Why is it that every single funded coach for professional sports teams, in centers of athletic excellence and in high quality strength and conditioning facilities use the High Bar Back squat as a preference?

The wide squat is efficient for kit and moving huge weight in kit (usually high), but not for much else.

If you don't agree perform a simple test, stand in an approximate Olympic squat stance, and jump up as high as you can in the air - now do the same with a side stance squat and see which is more explosive and powerful.


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## gaz90 (Jun 19, 2014)

MattGriff said:


> It is a more natural position, the stance or variants of are found in sport, Olympic weightlifters time and time again in studies have been proven to be far more explosive than Powerlifters - this is pivotal for combat, sprints etc
> 
> Why do you think such people as Sir Chris Hoy Oly squat? Why do NFL linemen not have a super wide stance in the scrimmage? Why do rugby props not adopt this wide stance? Wrestlers, throwers etc the list goes on and on - why is it that the biggest legitimate raw squatter on Earth Malinachiev is a narrow/medium stance squatter and time and time again the 'Westside' crew produce videos of high squats?
> 
> ...


yea theyre not known for their deadlifts anyway...maybe cos they do everything in briefs, use bands too often and deadlift infrequently. just a thought

by the way, were you referring to raw or equipped powerlifting?

I wouldnt use such a wide stance as louie suggests, if i was wearing briefs like they do, im sure its fine plus it gets more out of the equipment. but otherwise it just chews up my hips. i know Joe defranco uses the box squat, but he doesnt seem use opt for the super wide stance with his athletes -who dont wear briefs.

thoughts?


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## MattGriff (Aug 21, 2012)

gaz90 said:


> yea theyre not known for their deadlifts anyway...maybe cos they do everything in briefs, use bands too often and deadlift infrequently. just a thought
> 
> by the way, were you referring to raw or equipped powerlifting?
> 
> ...


The whole point of the wide squat really is to work with the double ply kit, the IPF use a hybrid stance more often than not and most raw lifters come in somewhat as the hips are just not supported as you point out.

The box squat is a useful tool, its just Louie talks crap about it - a proper box squat is squatting down to the box and sitting on it, relaxing the lower body then driving off - however the rocking back bit is nonsense, he tries to justify this by stating the hamstrings have to pull you forward, this is factually incorrect - watch them perform it, they rock back forward at the waist and use inertia to assist the lift.

Again try it raw, no weight, with your feet forward and sat back and try to get up - its impossible unless you come forward.

Unfortunately the template Louie pushes (apparently he invented speed training too, I know a few thousand weightlifters and athletes who would disagree with that) was big across the net, but really it is scientifically inaccurate but has grown to be bigger than itself so that many who legitimately disagree and can indeed prove it get shot down by hardcore fanatics - bit like religion really.


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## gaz90 (Jun 19, 2014)

MattGriff said:


> The whole point of the wide squat really is to work with the double ply kit, the IPF use a hybrid stance more often than not and most raw lifters come in somewhat as the hips are just not supported as you point out. *i have noticed that between plys. i will search some images and compare the most common stance for each cat*
> 
> The box squat is a useful tool, its just Louie talks crap about it - a proper box squat is squatting down to the box and sitting on it, relaxing the lower body then driving off - however the rocking back bit is nonsense, he tries to justify this by stating the hamstrings have to pull you forward, this is factually incorrect - watch them perform it, they rock back forward at the waist and use inertia to assist the lift.
> 
> ...


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## The Sweeney (May 8, 2014)

Guys... please forgive me for being such an ignorant dufuss, but I'm struggling to see the difference between the two pictures apart from the first picture has a more upright torso and angled shins, where as the second picture has more vertical shins and an angled back - please can someone explain which one is oly and which was is powerlift, and any other differences as the stance looks the same width (to my eyes).

And more importantly what should I be aiming for?

My only other sport is boxing.

I'm squatting as part of the Starting Strength program and with the end game to be generally bigger, denser, thicker, stronger and more muscular - I have no interest in 'power lifting' or 'olympic lifting' per se as I wouldn't know the difference - I just want to be big and strong with a thick muscular physique.

What direction should I be heading?

100% natty if that makes any difference, tall and skinny fat.

Sorry for not knowing my **** from my elbow.


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## MattGriff (Aug 21, 2012)

The Sweeney said:


> Guys... please forgive me for being such an ignorant dufuss, but I'm struggling to see the difference between the two pictures apart from the first picture has a more upright torso and angled shins, where as the second picture has more vertical shins and an angled back - please can someone explain which one is oly and which was is powerlift, and any other differences as the stance looks the same width (to my eyes).
> 
> And more importantly what should I be aiming for?
> 
> ...


The upright squat is the Olympic squat, and will add more muscularity to your thighs than the power squat variant although use less weight.

My only other sport is boxing.


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## The Sweeney (May 8, 2014)

Missing text is missing...  ^^


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## 2004mark (Oct 26, 2013)

Matt added this bit "The upright squat is the Olympic squat, and will add more muscularity to your thighs than the power squat variant although use less weight."


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## The Sweeney (May 8, 2014)

2004mark said:


> Matt added this bit "The upright squat is the Olympic squat, and will add more muscularity to your thighs than the power squat variant although use less weight."


Cool, thanks - missing eyesight is missing! :lol:

Which one is the more prolific in the body building / fitness circles or is there no such thing?


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## 2004mark (Oct 26, 2013)

The Sweeney said:


> Cool, thanks - missing eyesight is missing! :lol:
> 
> Which one is the more prolific in the body building / fitness circles or is there no such thing?


More prolific? Normally a quarter squat with a good morning mixed in :lol:

Seriously though, as Matt says, high bar Olympic squat is generally the way most go unless powelifting.


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## The Sweeney (May 8, 2014)

2004mark said:


> More prolific? Normally a quarter squat with a good morning mixed in :lol:
> 
> Seriously though, as Matt says, high bar Olympic squat is generally the way most go unless powelifting.


High bar Olympic squat - got it! 

Now, if only I could find a 3' tall packing crate....


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## The Sweeney (May 8, 2014)

Update...

Tried the squat again tonight - the big thing that stood out now I now what to look for is that once I get to a certain depth, about two thirds of the way towards parallel and I simply cannot prevent my back leaning forwards - no matter what I do, it HAS to come forwards and no longer looks like the OLY squat more upright position.

I even tried to force it so I'd fall over backwards but again, it;s not a case of choice, I mechanically couldn't keep my back vertical and have no idea what is causing it or what I can do about it.

Also, even on the warm up on the empty bar, my hip flexor/groin pain starts less than half way down the descent - the more weight the more pain. After two work sets I simply had to stop as the pain was getting worse.

So... no amount of position variation, warm ups or stretching is making any difference to the pain and I'm obviously missing a trick in terms of how to achieve the correct form, so I guess squats are now out of the picture until such time as I can identify what is causing the pain and how to avoid it, and also getting professional coaching to asses what the fcuk I'm doing wrong - perhaps the two solutions are not mutually exclusive?

Again, I welcome any feedback.


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## Daniel_H (Jun 8, 2010)

The Sweeney said:


> Update...
> 
> Tried the squat again tonight - the big thing that stood out now I now what to look for is that once I get to a certain depth, about two thirds of the way towards parallel and I simply cannot prevent my back leaning forwards - no matter what I do, it HAS to come forwards and no longer looks like the OLY squat more upright position.
> 
> ...


Not a permanent fix, but try doing some front squats rather than back squats.

front squats will force you to stay more upright or the bar will just roll off. Once you have done it should imprint enough that you should hopefully be a little more upright on the back squat.

another 'quick' fix would be to add a few weight plates under your heel on the back squat as the raised heel tends to keep you more upright too.

as others have mentioned to, spread your knees, don't push them forward, push them out.

and i know it may sound silly, but focusing too much on your form to the extent you seem to be doing can be a real hindrance, one thing at a time man!

and i know you say warm ups/stretches aren't doing anything, but these arent a quick fix, find some good mobility work on youtube, californiastrength/jon north/bryce lewis/canditotraininghq etc and keep at them!

its a marathon, not a sprint!


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## The Sweeney (May 8, 2014)

Daniel_H said:


> Not a permanent fix, but try doing some front squats rather than back squats.
> 
> front squats will force you to stay more upright or the bar will just roll off. Once you have done it should imprint enough that you should hopefully be a little more upright on the back squat.
> 
> ...


Thanks bud.

I did the knee pushing apart and other 'spread the floor with your feet' things - I really did try.

The form not being correct is not ideal - but the pain is a problem - a squat stopping problem and my search for perfect form was an attempt to see if it prevented the pain which it seems so far as no variation at all is doing.

I tried doing 'goblet' front squats with a dumbell, but again, as soon as I start to lower myself, my groin/hip flexors scream at me.

After just two warm up sets and a few work sets I now can;t climb the stairs without turning sideways and doing them one step at a time - to me there's a deeper problem that needs fixing here?

If it hadn't have been for the groin/hip pain, I'd be merrily still going ATG with horrendous butt wink and adding weight each work out as I only stopped to look at my form when the pain occurred.

Who do I go and see about this - a Doctor? Strength Coach? Sports physio?

It's getting me down as once I'd abandoned the squat due to pain, I moved onto the shoulder press which I failed on half way through the first set as my brain just quit - my groin was hurting so bad and I felt such a failure, I lost all the internal fight in me and simply became fed up and weak. Pathetic really as I want to succeed at this really badly.

I need a coach I reckon.


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## Daniel_H (Jun 8, 2010)

The Sweeney said:


> Thanks bud.
> 
> I did the knee pushing apart and other 'spread the floor with your feet' things - I really did try.
> 
> ...


i am guessing i won't be the only one saying this after your latest reply....

but stop. all together with squats.

you shouldn't be in pain like that after doing squats. there is obviously something going on that needs addressed. Whether an injury from previous squats or something else.

Go to the doctors, they should refer you to a physio, even the chiropractor may be a good shout! It may just be the case you have pulled/twinged something and need a few weeks off, but better to be safe than sorry!

I haven't been in the situation you have before, but i know i used to get a lot of groin trouble doing wide squats so i have switched to very narrow squats (feet just outside shoulder with) and i don't get any more trouble with my groin.

but first and foremost get yourself sorted before playing with stances or anything else.

your better taking a bit of time recovering and getting yourself sorted, than continuing on and knocking yourself out the game for the rest of your life!


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## The Sweeney (May 8, 2014)

Daniel_H said:


> i am guessing i won't be the only one saying this after your latest reply....
> 
> but stop. all together with squats.
> 
> ...


Good plan.

I'll see the Dr and go from there - it's not like I'm going to set myself back months of hard work and not be able to reach the enormous dizzy heights of 50kg squats again... :lol:


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## petebetros (Mar 6, 2014)

I would say you need to fix the way you unrack before anything else no?

How can you get, and keep, your body tight unracking the weight like that? You can't imo and will fail at getting in a proper poisition with weight already on your back so your squat technique is ****ed before you even start the first.

In the second video you posted on page two you can see yourself getting in position on the 18th second but everything before that is just slack, should be nice and tight like that before unracking. You even slightly buckle a few seconds before that so there's no way you can get yourself in a good position after that. The way I've been taught fairly recently anyway.


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