# Lat pull down form



## RexEverthing (Apr 4, 2014)

Morning again chaps. Can you give me your thoughts on lat pull down form? I've found conflicting info on whether or not you retract your scapula through the entire movement / amount of lean-back / grip width etc.

At the moment I'm trying an underhand grip and ensuring to pull from elbows, contract lats then slowly control back up. Finding this grip allows me a better contraction than shoulder-width overhand.

When I've tried staying more vertical I feel I may be pushing more onto rear delts and shoulders but I'm concerned to lean too far and basically do a row.

I've also tried allowing my shoulders to rise at the top of the movement and also keeping them down, not sure which is best in regard to shoulder health and muscle contraction for lats?

Should I be consciously retracting scapular at the start of the movement as I pull from the elbows or just depress / retract at the point of contraction?

Any thoughts or any good videos on YouTube worth checking out?

Possibly over analysing again but got great info yesterday so hoping for more. Tagging for help! Cheers!

@I'mNotAPervert! @Ultrasonic @Fadi65 @Sphinkter


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## Sphinkter (Apr 10, 2015)

I go for a full stretch at the top, with regards to you shoulders rising up im assuming you mean taking tension off the lats and onto the shoulders/joints, so its more like getting that full stretch while keeping in all in the lats. I find using an underhand grip even if i just fully extend the stretch my shoulders dont rise much and i get a really good stretch in the lats.

I dont think of it so much as leaning back but i do hold and arch in my back so i guess i am slightly, and do rock back and forward slightly on the the pull and stretch respecively. Like if vertical is 90 degrees and you end up back at 70 or something.. as long as youre not goin right back, using all that momentum as you say youre basically turning it into a back extension/row.

I seen a good old video from dorian yates on back training i dont have a link or anything though.


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## Fadi (Dec 14, 2010)

RexEverthing said:


> Morning again chaps. Can you give me your thoughts on lat pull down form? I've found conflicting info on whether or not you retract your scapula through the entire movement / amount of lean-back / grip width etc.
> 
> @I'mNotAPervert! @Ultrasonic @Fadi65 @Sphinkter


 Everyone of us is going to have his favourite, and that's normal, since biomechanically, we're all slightly different. So I tell you what works for me, and some of the things I say are backed by science, however I do not pin all my hopes on science when the aim is muscle building. In this sport, everything works, but not everything works all of the time. Change is as good as the "best" program out there.

For me, the close grip/V-bar comes in first. I prefer the neutral grip as it serves to not only place me in a very strong position to pull down, but because it also minimises on my weak links, i.e.my forearm muscles. As far as the back lean, I would have to say that science agrees with the bodybuilding community here, in that leaning back as one contracts the lats, does activate the lats much more than if one was to do a text-book erected/upright back position.



The other grip I like is the pronated grip (that's palms over the bar). Here, the width is slightly wider than my shoulder width. You mentioned the scapulae, and in this particular pulldown, with this particular width, my focus would be on the scapulae downward rotation, the bottom squeezing part of the movement. The teres major muscle (that's the one right beneath your armpits), comes more into play the wider your arms go out.

*INJURY MINIMISATION OF TRICEPS' LONG HEAD*

As usual, I have to talk about injuries and the importance of their prevention and/or minimisation.

Tearing of the long head of your triceps occurs when the muscle is fatigued (a point of reflection when it comes to the grouping and strategically placing of muscle parts worked in the same session). It only takes one sudden moment of relaxation (as is the case when we're in the overstretched/overhead arm position I've mentioned above), with arms straight as opposed to a slightly unlocked elbow position, where now our most powerful/primary player, the latissimus dorsi, is momentarily relieved of its role, resulting in the tension immediately shifting onto the much weaker long head of the triceps. This can lead to a partial tear in the triceps' tendon close to its insertion on the scapula.



I'll leave it here for now.

Fadi.


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## Jordan08 (Feb 17, 2014)

Retract your scapula when your bring the bar down and protract it when you go above. When someone says they can't feel the lat pulldown, the major issue is they seem to hold their scapula in whole range of motion. Next important thing IME is the weight you are aiming to move. I have always feel that moderate weight where i can manage 12-15 reps is more suitable for lat pulldowns rather than weight where i can push between 8-12.

Finally, tend to sit away from the bar, not under the bar. That would easily allow you to protract the scapula going above.


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## nWo (Mar 25, 2014)

I do them like this:






So you start upright, then initiate the movement by leaning back at a 30-40 degree angle and the arms will naturally follow. So the back is pulling the weight.


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## RexEverthing (Apr 4, 2014)

I'mNotAPervert! said:


> I do them like this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 What the f**k did I just watch?! :lol:

See I'd always thought using that much momentum and leaning back to that degree was wrong? Obviously the guys back speaks for itself.


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## nWo (Mar 25, 2014)

RexEverthing said:


> What the f**k did I just watch?! :lol:
> 
> See I'd always thought using that much momentum and leaning back to that degree was wrong? Obviously the guys back speaks for itself.


 Yep, he's a fu**ing fruitloop, but he's big, strong AF and generally gives some decent advice :thumb

Think of it like this. When you're doing barbell curls, you're told not to use momentum cause it takes the work away from the biceps and you end up using your back muscles. Same reason you'd want to use some momentum on a back exercise.

I've actually noticed that my back used to be one of my worst areas and obviously trying to be super-strict on form wasn't really working. I noticed a while ago that all the guys who had huge backs don't use the strictest of form, even guys like Dorian who claim to. So I started putting a bit more power behind my rows and pulldowns and sure enough, my back is catching up. Your back is designed to pull heavy s**t as a collective muscle group, no point in trying to be all strict in order to eliminate involvement if other muscle groups or you might actually find the opposite happening.


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## RexEverthing (Apr 4, 2014)

I'mNotAPervert! said:


> Yep, he's a fu**ing fruitloop, but he's big, strong AF and generally gives some decent advice :thumb
> 
> Think of it like this. When you're doing barbell curls, you're told not to use momentum cause it takes the work away from the biceps and you end up using your back muscles. Same reason you'd want to use some momentum on a back exercise.
> 
> I've actually noticed that my back used to be one of my worst areas and obviously trying to be super-strict on form wasn't really working. I noticed a while ago that all the guys who had huge backs don't use the strictest of form, even guys like Dorian who claim to. So I started putting a bit more power behind my rows and pulldowns and sure enough, my back is catching up. Your back is designed to pull heavy s**t as a collective muscle group, no point in trying to be all strict in order to eliminate involvement if other muscle groups or you might actually find the opposite happening.


 Yep, guy seems madder than a box of frogs. What about form on rows? Do you use similar momentum for that?

Same question on rows guys - @Ultrasonic @Fadi65 @Sphinkter What form do you practice for rows and which do you find best? BB / DB / cable?

@I'mNotAPervert! You mentioned upper/lower yesterday - what would you include in the upper session for someone with shitty posture and a history of shoulder issues? I'm currently trying to limit push and focusing more on pull but interested what you think?

Cheers again all!


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

I do rows like this, although with an underhand grip:






This article might be of general interest too:

http://musculardevelopment.com/training/2905-my-guide-to-building-a-better-back-by-dorian-yates.html


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## Sphinkter (Apr 10, 2015)

Ultrasonic said:


> I do rows like this, although with an underhand grip:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 Thats how i row also.

For t bar i go slightly more horizontal just because i can get a nice wide stance and its alot kinder on my low back.


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## nWo (Mar 25, 2014)

RexEverthing said:


> Yep, guy seems madder than a box of frogs. What about form on rows? Do you use similar momentum for that?
> 
> Same question on rows guys - @Ultrasonic @Fadi65 @Sphinkter What form do you practice for rows and which do you find best? BB / DB / cable?
> 
> ...


 Used to do a lot of barbell and cable rows, but I noticed my lats thickening up when I switched to cable rows for lats so I just stuck with them. Bit of rocking back and forth to get the back momentum going a tad and get a nice stretch on the lats, but nothing major. Pretty much like this:






Then for upper back I do use dumbbells for elbows-flared rows as they're best for thickening up the whole upper back/mid-lower lats/rear delt area. Like this, but without a platform cause ROM and I also don't put the weights down between reps.






If you're trying to avoid too many pushing movements for a while then for an upper day I'd be looking at something like this:

Bench press variant

Lateral raises

Pulldowns

Close rows

Wide rows

Triceps

Biceps


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## RexEverthing (Apr 4, 2014)

I'mNotAPervert! said:


> Used to do a lot of barbell and cable rows, but I noticed my lats thickening up when I switched to cable rows for lats so I just stuck with them. Bit of rocking back and forth to get the back momentum going a tad and get a nice stretch on the lats, but nothing major. Pretty much like this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 Superb thanks mate. Would you bother chucking some kind of rear delt fly in or anything?


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## nWo (Mar 25, 2014)

RexEverthing said:


> Superb thanks mate. Would you bother chucking some kind of rear delt fly in or anything?


 Well the wide grip rows build the rear delts anyway so they're not essential, but you could alternate between the rows and the flyes between workouts if you wanted.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

RexEverthing said:


> Superb thanks mate. Would you bother chucking some kind of rear delt fly in or anything?


 I do what I'd call bent over one-arm rear delt rows: elbow on line with shoulder and forearm hanging vertically. This works rear delts and upper back together and for my money is a better use of time/effort than rear delt flies.


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## RexEverthing (Apr 4, 2014)

Ultrasonic said:


> I do what I'd call bent over one-arm rear delt rows: elbow on line with shoulder and forearm hanging vertically. This works rear delts and upper back together and for my money is a better use of time/effort than rear delt flies.


 Like INAP posted above? Do you do them single arm on a bench?

Out of interest what routine would you recommend for me bearing in mind what I've said about posture / shoulder issues? Would you agree with INAP upper routine?


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

RexEverthing said:


> Like INAP posted above? Do you do them single arm on a bench?


 Yes. As I do them after barbell rows and don't want lower back fatigue to be an issue, and it just makes it easier to keep my torso is a fixed position anyway.



> Out of interest what routine would you recommend for me bearing in mind what I've said about posture / shoulder issues? Would you agree with INAP upper routine?


 Just skimmed back up the thread and can't see what the issue is?

(You don't need me second guessing what INAP says though, my opinion is no more valid than his!)


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