# Letro, gyno reversal and bad sides...



## Rob90 (Feb 16, 2018)

Hi guys, at the age of 12 I developed pubertal gyno (only under left nipple) and since then it never went away, even when I tried to lose as much fat as possible getting down to 7-8% bf.

I'm 27, never done AAS and I train since I was 16.

So I decided to give Letro a chance.

Long story short, I started 3 weeks ago with 1.25 mg ED (it's pharma letro, so 1/2 tablet ), planning to move up to 2.5 mg ED, staying there 2-3 weeks and then taper off gradually.

Now, the problems...

First week (1.25 mg ED): I felt GREAT. From the day after the first dose, all things improved. Libido went through the roof, stamina and strenght in gym increased, muscles felt hard and pumped all day, I lost subcutaneous water and looked hard and vascular. Morning wood was so strong that woke me up and I even had a wet dream, LOL. Mood improved consistently.

As for sides, just some minor joint pain here and there, but nothing unbearable.

I felt so great that i tought: why taking AAS when there is this wonderful drug?

Then things started literally to flat out...

Second week (1.25 mg ED): Suddenly, i felt like s**t.

I felt apathetic, libido tanked, I could get it up but lost sensitivity and had "dull" orgasms. Morning wood was still there, but not as strong.

But the WORST thing was how I looked...

Muscles felt FLAT, vascularity disappeared, couldn't get a pump in the gym and no matter how much carbs I was eating, my muscles seemed "lifeless".

I had no strenght loss, instead i gained some.

I had the worst constipation ever had in my life, stomach looked bloated and abs disappeared. Paradoxically, it seemed that water retention increased. WTF? With letro?

Other sides: very dry lips, to the point that they are cracking and bleeding. Night sweats and something like hot flushes (my ears become very red and hot).

Now, i'm in the same situation of second week. I've tried to increase letro to 2.5 mg ED for 3 days, because at some point i tought that for strange reasons my estrogens had skyrocket (bloating, no pump, night sweats, flat muscles), and holy s**t, never again!!!

Ok, i can handle other sides, but i can't look myself in the mirror like that.

Seems that i've lost muscle mass and it's so depressing.

What i should do now? F**k gyno, I want to feel good again.

Should i taper letro down slowly and then stop completely?

I have aromasin on hand (pharma grade), should i take it to avoid a rebound from letro?

How long will take to get back to normal?


----------



## comp07974 (Dec 12, 2012)

Is this serious or a joke?


----------



## Rob90 (Feb 16, 2018)

Why should i joke?
If someone want to help me or give me some advice i'll be thankful.
Otherwise never mind, i'll try by myself. But i'm serious.


----------



## 66983 (May 30, 2016)

Rob90 said:


> Hi guys, at the age of 12 I developed pubertal gyno (only under left nipple) and since then it never went away, even when I tried to lose as much fat as possible getting down to 7-8% bf.
> 
> I'm 27, never done AAS and I train since I was 16.
> 
> ...


 Only way your going to get rid of pubertal Gyno bud is surgery.

Stop the letro now!

Raloxifene may reduce the mass a little but in all honesty surgery is the only way.

Take it from me, I battled it for 12 months, taking Letro all that time and still ended up having surgery in the end.

You've basically crashed your E2, and unfortunately it could take a while to get to homeostasis again..

The only quick way to feel better is to add synthetic test, that way in a week you should feel better, however because you don't take AAS, your just going to have to ride it out.


----------



## comp07974 (Dec 12, 2012)

I take 0.25mg Every 3 days as letro is harsh as s**t. Listen to the dude above. Your letro intake is way too much.


----------



## Rob90 (Feb 16, 2018)

Yes, way too strong and i'm noticing it at my own expense.
And yes, it can hinder gains. Not to the point that you can't gain strength or size, but it makes you look flat and you can't feel muscle contractions.
Pump and vascularity also are gone.
The strange thing is that i feel dehydrated and bloated at the same time, with an horrible constipation.
Never again.
What do you suggest?
Tapering down slowly to avoid a rebound?
I may add some clomid in order to increase LH and testicular aromatase activity.


----------



## ashmo (Jul 1, 2011)

Letro sides are bad, you should have tired Nolva first for a few weeks, stick with the half a tab for a bit longer if I was you, ride it out, yes once you stop it will take a few weeks to get back to normal so don't worry about it, you should have some nolva anyway as after letro you need to run it for a few weeks.


----------



## ILLBehaviour (Dec 20, 2014)

Stop now before you hurt yourself. Try nolva or raloxifene as suggested above.


----------



## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

Rob90 said:


> Yes, way too strong and i'm noticing it at my own expense.
> And yes, it can hinder gains. Not to the point that you can't gain strength or size, but it makes you look flat and you can't feel muscle contractions.
> Pump and vascularity also are gone.
> The strange thing is that i feel dehydrated and bloated at the same time, with an horrible constipation.
> ...


 taper down and add in some nolva to help with rebound leave the clomid alone until your body has stabilised


----------



## Rob90 (Feb 16, 2018)

Thansk guys.

I don't have nolva at the moment. I have aromasin (pharma) on hand.
Maybe i can try to add it at small doses if i'll notice some rebound symptoms.


----------



## simonboyle (Aug 5, 2013)

Rob90 said:


> Hi guys, at the age of 12 I developed pubertal gyno (only under left nipple) and since then it never went away, even when I tried to lose as much fat as possible getting down to 7-8% bf.
> 
> I'm 27, never done AAS and I train since I was 16.
> 
> ...


 Thinking your E2 would rocket on a pharma AI? Pure fecking genius.

Getting extreme sides on a low dose? Up the dose! Again, pure fecking genius.

Letro has a half life of at least 2 days, so ED dosing is not needed.

Educate before you medicate you buffoon.

If you insist on taking it, drop it to Mon-Wed-Fri at 1.25 max.

And you feel and look this way as you have destroyed you E2 levels. Estrogen is needed in the male body. You're finding out what for.

You want to control it, not eliminate it.

And why you would think of doing this without even checking to see what your E2 levels were? Sheer fecking genius.

What have we learned from this?


----------



## Rob90 (Feb 16, 2018)

I think that i've not failed to respect anyone, so please bro, calm down.
We can all make mistakes and i've made a big one.
No need to remark that.
Infact i'm here asking help to more experienced people.
Personally i've learned that crashing e2 is no joke and i've learned how it feels.
That could be useful for me in the future.


----------



## billy76 (Mar 22, 2015)

Hope you get sorted Rob90, I got some letro a few months ago.

Was thinking about running it a a very low does, as I also have pubertal gyno.

But stories like this scare the $hit out of me.


----------



## Rob90 (Feb 16, 2018)

Everyone is different and could react in a different manner.
There are people which claim being sides free even at 2.5 mg/day.
For example, i'm not experiencing any joint pain, nor lethargy, brain fog or bad mood/depression.
I feel depressed in the moment i look at myself in the mirror, because i look like sh**, or for the lack of pump in the gym.
The strange thing is that the first week i felt great, and i mean GREAT.
I hope that whilst tapering i'll reach again that sweet spot.


----------



## simonboyle (Aug 5, 2013)

Rob90 said:


> I think that i've not failed to respect anyone, so please bro, calm down.
> We can all make mistakes and i've made a big one.
> No need to remark that.
> Infact i'm here asking help to more experienced people.
> ...


 It was meant with a slight amount of humour. Sarcasm doesn't translate well to text, I suppose.

But I stand by it. Educate before you medicate.

You have a device in your hand that contains all the known knowledge from.our entire human history. So really no excuse.

Ask first.

Measure twice, cut once.

You get my point.


----------



## simonboyle (Aug 5, 2013)

Rob90 said:


> Everyone is different and could react in a different manner.
> There are people which claim being sides free even at 2.5 mg/day.
> For example, i'm not experiencing any joint pain, nor lethargy, brain fog or bad mood/depression.
> I feel depressed in the moment i look at myself in the mirror, because i look like sh**, or for the lack of pump in the gym.
> ...


 Don't taper.

Just drop.

Tapering serves no purpose.

Again, minimum 2 day half life.

Drop the dose.


----------



## Rob90 (Feb 16, 2018)

Ok, thanks.

Now i'm down to 1.25 mg ED.

Should i drop to 0.625 mg ED or 0.625 mg EOD?


----------



## 66983 (May 30, 2016)

Rob90 said:


> Ok, thanks.
> 
> Now i'm down to 1.25 mg ED.
> 
> Should i drop to 0.625 mg ED or 0.625 mg EOD?


 No just STOP....NOW!


----------



## Rob90 (Feb 16, 2018)

Cold turkey?

I know letro half life is quite long, but couldn't it lead to e2 rebound?


----------



## Cypionate (Jan 17, 2016)

Rob90 said:


> Cold turkey?
> 
> I know letro half life is quite long, but couldn't it lead to e2 rebound?


 Get some nolva in case of rebound then stop the Letro cold turkey


----------



## Rob90 (Feb 16, 2018)

I can't get the nolva at the moment.
I have pharma aromasin on hand.
I should have also added that in the past i've taken many OTC Ais (6-bromo, atd, formestane) always with great results and never had problems like that.
One time i've run aromasin alone (25 mg eod) with great results in terms of body composition and overall wellbeing.
I just can't understand why this time i'm experiencing these sides, especially the flat looking and the lack of pump/vascularity.


----------



## Cypionate (Jan 17, 2016)

Because you've completely tanked your E2 with an extremely strong AI, Letro

Men need E2, just not so much we grow tits


----------



## Rob90 (Feb 16, 2018)

Damn, letro is very strong.
I think that at the beginning i've reached the "sweet spot" and felt great just because it has a long half life and it had not yet reached steady blood levels.


----------



## Cypionate (Jan 17, 2016)

Yea your first dose might have brought E2 levels down to a good place, or even maybe too far but without any sides yet, continuing taking Letro at that mega high dose that is designed to combat breast cancer was never going to work out well for a man


----------



## superdrol (Aug 9, 2012)

Rob90 said:


> Cold turkey?
> 
> I know letro half life is quite long, but couldn't it lead to e2 rebound?


 Yes stop it, stop it now, it will take 2 weeks plus to get e2 levels back to normal, on gear from v low e2 it took me 10 days with 600mg of test in my system aswell!! Tapering it will make it twice as long if not more (4-5+ weeks!) to get back to normal levels! Your overestimating how quickly your body will rebound!


----------



## simonboyle (Aug 5, 2013)

Rob90 said:


> Ok, thanks.
> 
> Now i'm down to 1.25 mg ED.
> 
> Should i drop to 0.625 mg ED or 0.625 mg EOD?


 .......

Half life is at least 2 days.

No need for every day dosing. Not the only one who's said it.

1.25 mg mon wed Fri.

Adjust from there.

But I'd say that's your maximum


----------



## simonboyle (Aug 5, 2013)

Rob90 said:


> Damn, letro is very strong.
> I think that at the beginning i've reached the "sweet spot" and felt great just because it has a long half life and it had not yet reached steady blood levels.


 I'm trying not to sound cheeky, but your "thinking" is not a great guide to anything. Either severely drop your dose or stop.

You have f**ked up and will be damaging yourself just now.


----------



## lewdylewd (May 18, 2015)

Popping a handful of Dbol will get e2 back in range quickly . Control gyno with a SERM.

You'll not get rid of old gyno. SERM daily for 6+ months and a VERY low dose of an AI will shrink it as much as you'll ever get it.


----------



## lewdylewd (May 18, 2015)

PS if not on any aromatising compounds (steroids) a low dose would be like 5mg aromasin or 0.5mg letro twice a week or even less.


----------



## Rob90 (Feb 16, 2018)

lewdylewd said:


> PS if not on any aromatising compounds (steroids) a low dose would be like 5mg aromasin or 0.5mg letro twice a week or even less.


 Now i'm on 0.625 eod and things are going much better.
I feel much fuller, pumps in the gym are returning, no more constipation and dry lips.
The strange thing is that seems letro was impairing fat loss too.
Probably because i was flat and to much dehydrated.
I think that i'm very prone to aromatization sides and this is one of the reason for i stayed away from steroids.
I have an horrific true glandular gyno under left nipple and a lipomastia under the rigth nipple.
Some years ago i had blood work done (no e2 unfortunately) and test was about 800 ng/dl and i was on a very low calories diet with a good amount of cardio.
I've run aromasin (pharma grade) many times at 25 eod or every third day and transdermal formestane at 150 mg day, always with great results.
Never had a problem like that.

Things that i've learned from this experience:

- Letro is very powerful s**t. Much more than i tought.

- Estrogen in the right range are very important for muscle growth and i think fat loss too.


----------



## 66983 (May 30, 2016)

So you've still not stopped?

The mind boggles.

Why even ask for help if your just gonna do your own thing anyway.


----------



## Rob90 (Feb 16, 2018)

Sparkey said:


> So you've still not stopped?
> 
> The mind boggles.
> 
> Why even ask for help if your just gonna do your own thing anyway.


 I was scared as fu** of estrogen rebound.
In fact after some days that i've reduced dosage, i've experienced a bit of nipple sensitivity and minor pain.


----------



## ARkb (Nov 24, 2017)

Well did it cure your pubertal gyno?


----------



## Rob90 (Feb 16, 2018)

No. It didn't.
But i stayed at 2.5 ed only for three days because of sides, the worst one being the muscle flatness.
The weird thing is i had most signs of increased test (morning wood, body hair growing much faster, increased strenght) but bad mood and this s***ty feeling of being flat, like as muscles can't retain water INSIDE cells.
But now is going much better.
I've planned to do blood work as soon as i can to have an idea of the bigger picture.

Ps.
Pubertal gyno is a pain in the a**, especially if it is asymmetrical.
One of the worst aesthetic problems.


----------



## superdrol (Aug 9, 2012)

Rob90 said:


> I was scared as fu** of estrogen rebound.
> In fact after some days that i've reduced dosage, i've experienced a bit of nipple sensitivity and minor pain.


 Your using a sledgehammer to put in a screw, youve broken yourself, and we have pointed this out, now your banging away with the same hammer despite best advice because you think it's best (it's not as you have no clue!) and now your just gonna end up harming yourself some more, which part of men need e2 did you not get, your body will find a level that it's happy with e2 levels at, you need drugs for gyno not to kill e2

carry on regardless, you know best buddy, enjoy your life on letro that your taking when you don't even need it


----------



## Yoeni (Mar 13, 2018)

Rob90 said:


> No. It didn't.
> But i stayed at 2.5 ed only for three days because of sides, the worst one being the muscle flatness.
> The weird thing is i had most signs of increased test (morning wood, body hair growing much faster, increased strenght) but bad mood and this s***ty feeling of being flat, like as muscles can't retain water INSIDE cells.
> But now is going much better.
> ...


 Have you had any progression?


----------



## Rob90 (Feb 16, 2018)

No, gyno is still there.

I've stopped letro, than tried to take it again and sides came back again, so now i've stopped definitively.

What i've learned is that letro is very very powerful s**t and that for strange reasons my body responds to crashed e2 with high e2 like sides, like bloating, flatness, water retention, hot flushes and s**tty feeling. No joint pain or things like that....

Very dry lips also...


----------



## Yoeni (Mar 13, 2018)

Rob90 said:


> No, gyno is still there.
> 
> I've stopped letro, than tried to take it again and sides came back again, so now i've stopped definitively.
> 
> ...


 I also felt like s**t on letro ,nightsweats, dry lips, hot flushes, feeling empty and no energy.

Using raloxifene now for +- 3 weeks but not seeing any progression yet. Gonna continue raloxifene for another few months if i have no progression i'm gonna add letro again. I want to get rid of my bitch tit, just gonna try to get over the shitty feeling


----------



## Rob90 (Feb 16, 2018)

Yoeni said:


> I also felt like s**t on letro ,nightsweats, dry lips, hot flushes, feeling empty and no energy.


 Exactly this. Do you also had muscle flatness/lack of pump and vascularity?

It's weird but seems that i hold water on high doses of letro.


----------



## Yoeni (Mar 13, 2018)

Rob90 said:


> Exactly this. Do you also had muscle flatness/lack of pump and vascularity?
> 
> It's weird but seems that i hold water on high doses of letro.


 I'm not holding water but yeah i look pretty flat. Didnt go gym last 2 months cause of my gyno so i'm not sure


----------



## Rob90 (Feb 16, 2018)

Probably is the lack of water retention INSIDE muscle cells which led to flat/soft appearence.

And the inhability to hold water/sodium led to vasconstriction and activation of renin-angiotensin-aldosterone system and i think insulin resistance too.

Stopping the letro had brought fullness and pump back in a matter of 3-4 days.

I've learned at my own expense that estrogens are very important in male too and that letro is very very very powerful sh*t.

And yes, of course, that for pubertal gyno the only solution is surgery.


----------

