# What is needed for muscle growth? Failure, soreness ect



## leezers (Mar 2, 2010)

Been reading up alot recently about different methods of training and just wondered what exactly is needed for muscle growth, in regards to training obviously, not diet and gear

Been looking at Dorian Yates's method of training when he does 2 warm up sets then 1 working set to failure, what's peoples views on this?? Should failure be looked for in every exercise?

I find myself sometimes doing a few more sets to work the muscle more but feel I'm maybe doing too much.

Also should you be aiming to be really sore the next day? And if you're not was your training session not hard enough

Not looking for a huge debate lol, just looking for people's opinions and tips maybe, personal experiences ect. Cheers


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## 31205 (Jan 16, 2013)

I do a mixture. Super sets. Drop sets. Every few weeks I'll do the slow negative thing. I work to failure last set of every exercise then Drop weight and go to failure again. If I'm not sore the next day or day after, I feel like I haven't worked hard enough. That's just what I do. there's people in much better shape than me on here that prob do things differently but I'm definitely growing so going in the right direction.


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## leezers (Mar 2, 2010)

I find myself doing the slow negative all the time, but also been told you should only do that when you plateau. I also feel if I'm not sore the next day it was a waste of a workout lol


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## PD89 (Mar 27, 2014)

Progression is the best tip I can give.. Get a log book, beat it every session if you can, if this becomes to difficult try and beat the book every couple of sessions, it works well


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## Corby (Jun 18, 2008)

Muscle hypertrophy is required for muscle growth.


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## leezers (Mar 2, 2010)

A log book is something I've never done mate but I'm starting one when I'm back holiday. Too easy to stay at the same weight


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## leezers (Mar 2, 2010)

Corby said:


> Muscle hypertrophy is required for muscle growth.


Smart **** lol


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## notorious1990 (Mar 10, 2008)

PD89 said:


> Progression is the best tip I can give.. Get a log book, beat it every session if you can, if this becomes to difficult try and beat the book every couple of sessions, it works well


This.

There are many ways too skin a cat as the saying goes and everyone does things differently. You have to find what works for you, trial and error. And sounds silly but also I do exercises I enjoy doing and have mind-muscle connection with. rather than moving a weight from A to B.


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## Prince Adam (Mar 17, 2012)

I'm only sore the next day if I've done something my body hadn't done in a while.


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## Smitch (Dec 29, 2008)

I suppose it depends on how much you've trained and what level you're at as well, what works for a pro like Yates may not work well for someone else.

I couldn't imagine doing two warm up sets and then just one working set, worth a go, but it's not a type of training i'd enjoy, and that's also something you need to factor in.


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## gaz90 (Jun 19, 2014)

heres what i focus on most of the time and what i believe is optimal for myself

for strength:

- 3-4 singles @ 90-100%

- over load work/ bands

- box squats and paused benching

- speed bench pressing with paused reps

- speed deadlifts without a belt

- periods of training without a belt

for hypertrophy:

- TUT using strict form and control and focusing on the muscle to get the set to last at least 30 seconds

- effort. going to technical failure on most exercises, getting the most out out each set.

- drop sets and rest pause training, for weak/ lagging muscles. also great for reinforcing the mind muscle connection

- gradually increasing volume on an exercise. i try avoid training an exercise with the same reps and weight week in and week out.


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## bodybuilder16 (May 27, 2012)

Stimulation of any sort along with a solid diet will make muscle grow.

Doesn't how hard you work in gym to failure or past last weeks work out. It's all for nothing of you don't feed the muscle correctly


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## leezers (Mar 2, 2010)

gaz90 said:


> heres what i focus on most of the time and what i believe is optimal for myself
> 
> for strength:
> 
> ...


Thanks mate. Loads of good info in that post


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## lukeyybrown1 (Jun 4, 2014)

are you natural or not? personally i think this matters a lot


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## leezers (Mar 2, 2010)

lukeyybrown1 said:


> are you natural or not? personally i think this matters a lot


I use gear mate yeah. Off just now but majority of time I'm on. Just been getting diet and training in check a little more before I go back on.


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## lukeyybrown1 (Jun 4, 2014)

leezers said:


> I use gear mate yeah. Off just now but majority of time I'm on. Just been getting diet and training in check a little more before I go back on.


I personally think controlling the heaviest weight you can lift with correct form pumping the muscle up through blood flow stretching the muscle

see a lot of skinny people lifting seriously heavy dead lifts and squats but look like nothing?

I agree with gaz90's post


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## leezers (Mar 2, 2010)

lukeyybrown1 said:


> see a lot of skinny people lifting seriously heavy dead lifts and squats but look like nothing?


Never thought about it like that mate


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## cas (Jan 9, 2011)

It all works, if you lift weights, eat lots and take as much gear as you can afford then you will grow


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## leezers (Mar 2, 2010)

cas said:


> It all works, if you lift weights, eat lots and take as much gear as you can afford then you will grow


Lol not really mate. There's obv better ways of doing things than others. If your theory was correct we'd all be walking about like jay cutler


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## cas (Jan 9, 2011)

leezers said:


> Lol not really mate. There's obv better ways of doing things than others. If your theory was correct we'd all be walking about like jay cutler


Of course it all works, look at people like rich piana and most of the older generation of bodybuilders they all go for reps, then you get others like Dorian who focuses more on weight and less reps, I have tried both ways, and couldn't see a difference


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## mrwright (Oct 22, 2013)

Do what you enjoy would be my best suggestion

If you like heavy as fucck 2-6 reps do that and progress each time

If you prefer light controlled 10+ reps do that

Your gonna make more progress if you go into the gym thinking yess i get to do some heavy dumbbells love them!

Rather than spose ill do some dumbbells then maybe a machinee


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## leezers (Mar 2, 2010)

cas said:


> Of course it all works, look at people like rich piana and most of the older generation of bodybuilders they all go for reps, then you get others like Dorian who focuses more on weight and less reps, I have tried both ways, and couldn't see a difference


 You can't compare rich piana and Dorian Yates to ordinary gym folk like you and I. I know countless guys in my gym who lift weights, probs eat loads and are on stupid amount of gear , but ain't changed much tbh. That's what brings me to training techniques ect, anyone can lift eat and shoot gear, but there's a difference


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## leezers (Mar 2, 2010)

mrwright said:


> Do what you enjoy would be my best suggestion
> 
> If you like heavy as fucck 2-6 reps do that and progress each time
> 
> ...


Ha true mate


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## cas (Jan 9, 2011)

leezers said:


> You can't compare rich piana and Dorian Yates to ordinary gym folk like you and I. I know countless guys in my gym who lift weights, probs eat loads and are on stupid amount of gear , but ain't changed much tbh. That's what brings me to training techniques ect, anyone can lift eat and shoot gear, but there's a difference


There is not really much difference at all mate. We are all human.

Like I said, it all works.....try it, use one style of training for 6 months and then try another style.

The size you get is p.e.d and nutrition dependent


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## leezers (Mar 2, 2010)

cas said:


> There is not really much difference at all mate. We are all human.
> 
> Like I said, it all works.....try it, use one style of training for 6 months and then try another style.
> 
> The size you get is p.e.d and nutrition dependent


Suppose you're right mate. We are all human at the end of the day


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## Robbie789 (Sep 6, 2012)

Progressive overload is what causes muscle growth, lots of different ways to do it though; more reps, more weight, slower reps, etc, basically whatever causes more time under tension than the last time you did the exercise.


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## husaberg (May 23, 2013)

i agree with above in the main but over the years i have been training i have trained /trained with and started off many people on the path to gaining good muscle size (i used to be a pt) and have used the same priciples with them all and every one has had good results while training with me...it's simply striving to add wieght or reps with every session whatever you are doing,

with me in the most part simply 3 excercises (9 sets)for large muscle groups (chest,back,legs) and 2 excercises(4 or 5 sets) for smaller.. on a 2 on one off split ..if you are training with enough intensity and reaching failure last/heaviest set then you will add a rep or two next time round when 10 is reached add more wieght (taking you back to 5 or 6 reps) ..as long as you change up the excercises every so often to keep things fresh you can continue gaining well up to the point where you a real unit..i still train this way and have gained really well this current cycle..it's all about intensity and really pushing hard..

i have said this before (and got a mass of likes for it thanks gents) forget all the routines that get bandied about it really is simple keep adding wieght or reps and you will grow as long as diet allows it..when you get some real mass and gains are smaller and harder to come by then use drop sets ,super sets negatives etc..there really is no point using these things untill you are a more advanced bodybuilder.. i see all the time guys with no real size doing 20 sets+ per body part using cables and doing supersets etc because they read somewhere it's the way to go or they get shown by a mate etc it really is a waste of time if you want real mass stick with heavy compound movements and the above principles and you will get massive if you put the effort and intensity in it really is that simple


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## Gotista (Sep 25, 2012)

husaberg said:


> i agree with above in the main but over the years i have been training i have trained /trained with and started off many people on the path to gaining good muscle size (i used to be a pt) and have used the same priciples with them all and every one has had good results while training with me...it's simply striving to add wieght or reps with every session whatever you are doing,
> 
> with me in the most part simply 3 excercises (9 sets)for large muscle groups (chest,back,legs) and 2 excercises(4 or 5 sets) for smaller.. on a 2 on one off split ..if you are training with enough intensity and reaching failure last/heaviest set then you will add a rep or two next time round when 10 is reached add more wieght (taking you back to 5 or 6 reps) ..as long as you change up the excercises every so often to keep things fresh you can continue gaining well up to the point where you a real unit..i still train this way and have gained really well this current cycle..it's all about intensity and really pushing hard..
> 
> i have said this before (and got a mass of likes for it thanks gents) forget all the routines that get bandied about it really is simple keep adding wieght or reps and you will grow as long as diet allows it..when you get some real mass and gains are smaller and harder to come by then use drop sets ,super sets negatives etc..there really is no point using these things untill you are a more advanced bodybuilder.. i see all the time guys with no real size doing 20 sets+ per body part using cables and doing supersets etc because they read somewhere it's the way to go or they get shown by a mate etc it really is a waste of time if you want real mass stick with heavy compound movements and the above principles and you will get massive if you put the effort and intensity in it really is that simple


Agreed


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## husaberg (May 23, 2013)

just for the record i very rarely feel sore the next day nor do i want to , it's not the sign of a good workout to me but the sign i have done more damage than i would have wanted to once you have rreached failure and maybe had a touch on next rep you have done enough to stimulate muscle growth from that point i will only train another muscle or another head/part of the same muscle as i don't want to do a load of damage that has to be repaired before any growth will be taking place it just makes recovery harder and longer, the idea is to stimulate muscle growth not to seperate to the point of being in pain for days which as i say is just damage that needs repairing taking up bodies resources better spent on growing don't mistake it for the effects of good training..a little soreness can be the result of a hard workout but it's not what i want or aim for..it's only when first training after a lay off that it's inevitable or when getting very strong quickly when jumping on aa's too soon etc even then i try my best not to leave myself damaged to the point i am sore for days

just to clarify a little soreness is ok if you have pushed really hard but not the sore for days pianfull to move the musle type of soreness it's really counter productive, try not to leave yourself damaged


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## nWo (Mar 25, 2014)

Soreness is no indicator of a good workout or that I'll be getting results from it. I could do 10 sets of 300 reps on the pec deck and my chest would be mega sore the next day, but would it grow from that workout? Not a chance.

As has been said, keep a log book, spreadsheet, whatever you like, and ensure that you're adding weight or reps over time. Several ways to implement this.

As for whether or not you have to train to failure: it's certainly my preferred method, but you don't have to. As long as you balance intensity with volume to ensure you're stressing the target muscle(s) enough to make it grow and factoring in progressive overload, that's all that matters. When I say balancing volume and intensity, generally the higher the intensity the lower the volume and vice versa. So Dorian Yates or DoggCrapp being examples of high intensity and low volume, Serge Nubret being an example of using high volume to stress the muscles with fatigue and training nowhere near failure.


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## cas (Jan 9, 2011)

husaberg said:


> just for the record i very rarely feel sore the next day nor do i want to , it's not the sign of a good workout to me but the sign i have done more damage than i would have wanted to once you have rreached failure and maybe had a touch on next rep you have done enough to stimulate muscle growth from that point i will only train another muscle or another head/part of the same muscle as i don't want to do a load of damage that has to be repaired before any growth will be taking place it just makes recovery harder and longer, the idea is to stimulate muscle growth not to seperate to the point of being in pain for days which as i say is just damage that needs repairing taking up bodies resources better spent on growing don't mistake it for the effects of good training..a little soreness can be the result of a hard workout but it's not what i want or aim for..it's only when first training after a lay off that it's inevitable or when getting very strong quickly when jumping on aa's too soon etc even then i try my best not to leave myself damaged to the point i am sore for days


I agree with your last post but I know someone who will disagree with this one you wrote, I think you can probably guess who said this....

"The last three or four reps is what makes the muscle grow. This area of pain divides the champion from someone else who is not a champion. That's what most people lack, having the guts to go on and just say they'll go through the pain no matter what happens."


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## husaberg (May 23, 2013)

cas said:


> I agree with your last post but I know someone who will disagree with this one you wrote, I think you can probably guess who said this....
> 
> "The last three or four reps is what makes the muscle grow. This area of pain divides the champion from someone else who is not a champion. That's what most people lack, having the guts to go on and just say they'll go through the pain no matter what happens."


i think maybe you misunderstood me i totally agree with that statement sometimes i am in genuine agony forcing out a last few reps especially shoulders which burn really badly or tricep push downs , curls is another one but that doesn't mean i am going to be sore for days as i say i am very rarely in pain for days after a workout nor do i want to be thats another thing entirely


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## graham58 (Apr 7, 2013)

progressive resistance training.


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## johnwellby (Aug 24, 2014)

Progression- just do more than you did last time ie push more weight, an extra rep


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