# When and How to trim after bulking



## Baggy (Jan 7, 2011)

Hi guys

so ive been bulking for 12 weeks. Put in 11lbs and now 202lbs. BF prob 22%. Natural

Im not very defined and annoyingly carry weight in midrift.

Im nowhere near done bulking but im wondering when i take some time to trim up?

do i just keep bulking for another 12 weeks as planned and forget the fattyness.

Or so i take some time to trim up and get waist tighter? Will this have a big effect on my plan to get bigger overal?

lastly how is best to trim up? Cut food down to how many cals (currently 3,500 a day). How much CV and what do i do with current dorian yates full body workouts.

Thanks in advance


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## 66983 (May 30, 2016)

How long have you been training?

Have a look through these, tells you all you need to know.

https://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/topic/252745-stickies-links/?do=embed


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## Baggy (Jan 7, 2011)

Thanx mate

was injured for 3yrs but back training now. 3 months bulking putting on 11lbs. No definition though

im unsure if to just keep bulking for another 3-6 months and then try and trim up?

i read this from your link and was interesting about sone Keto diet - not heard of that before

https://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/topic/15895-big-pscarb-other-diet-experts-advice-needed/?do=embed

just unsure what best route to take is. I dont really feel big enough to try cut but i also hate not having a toned stomach


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## 66983 (May 30, 2016)

The thing is if you were to cut down to a low BF, say 10% or under you would look bigger (or at least with your top off).

to be honest 22% is too much really, 15% is a good place to stay whilst bulking.

I find when I'm bulking I fill out all my tops, even struggle to get the arms in some but then after cutting everything is too big.

Just keep plodding bud, you'll figure it out. :thumb


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Baggy said:


> i read this from your link and was interesting about sone Keto diet - not heard of that before


 Forget about keto - you don't need to do anything remotely as extreme as that to lose fat. Just drop your calories if you want to start losing body fat.

People have been encouraging you to cut for ages but only you can decide what to do. If you do decide to cut though I would first enjoy Christmas, and then drop your current daily calorie total by 750.


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## Baggy (Jan 7, 2011)

Cheers mate. That keto thing sounded a bit too good to be true but certainly looks like it would work (except the clen, never again!)

to keep muscle then are you best to keep the 4x weights a week plus cv once a day?

I dont feel im ready to diet yet lol im enjoying the eating part! But it will have to switch at some point


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Baggy said:


> Cheers mate. That keto thing sounded a bit too good to be true but certainly looks like it would work (except the clen, never again!)
> 
> to keep muscle then are you best to keep the 4x weights a week plus cv once a day?
> 
> I dont feel im ready to diet yet lol im enjoying the eating part! But it will have to switch at some point


 You don't have to do cardio every day. In fact you don't need to do any at all. I would focus on reducing calories to begin with, and keep cardio more in the bag for later on if you find you've dropped calories more than you're happy with.

To preserve muscle keep lifting the same weights. At your body fat level muscle loss really shouldn't be of any concern.


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## Lifesizepenguin (Jul 25, 2016)

Baggy said:


> i read this from your link and was interesting about sone Keto diet - not heard of that before
> 
> just unsure what best route to take is. I dont really feel big enough to try cut but i also hate not having a toned stomach


 I do the keto diet when i cut, as its effective. only is for me though because i difficulty restricting calories, its easier to just cut out carbs altogether.

Bear in mind, even thogh you dont feel big enough to cut, you usually cant bulk to your "ideal" size in one go.

It takes multiple bulk and cutting cycles normally, unless you start at 8% and lean bulk for 3 years... but who has that kind of discipline to never slip up for years etc...


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## Baggy (Jan 7, 2011)

Lifesizepenguin said:


> I do the keto diet when i cut, as its effective. only is for me though because i difficulty restricting calories, its easier to just cut out carbs altogether.
> 
> Bear in mind, even thogh you dont feel big enough to cut, you usually cant bulk to your "ideal" size in one go.
> 
> It takes multiple bulk and cutting cycles normally, unless you start at 8% and lean bulk for 3 years... but who has that kind of discipline to never slip up for years etc...


 Thanx mate. Can u tell me more about this keto diet pls. Your eating and CV plan and how it all works


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## Lifesizepenguin (Jul 25, 2016)

Baggy said:


> Thanx mate. Can u tell me more about this keto diet pls. Your eating and CV plan and how it all works


 I do cardio 1 day a week but that's a recent addition.

Keto is just a diet I got most of my info on it from the wiki at reddit: Found here

Cardio is not a must but it's good for your health.


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## Lifesizepenguin (Jul 25, 2016)

Saying that I think the advice @Ultrasonic gave is solid and I think you would benefit from following it.


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## Baggy (Jan 7, 2011)

Lifesizepenguin said:


> I do cardio 1 day a week but that's a recent addition.
> 
> Keto is just a diet I got most of my info on it from the wiki at reddit: Found here
> 
> Cardio is not a must but it's good for your health.


 Thanks. I need to research it more myself. How long do u do it for? I cant imagine a cut without cardio ?


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Baggy said:


> Thanks. I need to research it more myself. How long do u do it for? I cant imagine a cut without cardio ?


 Plenty of people have got lean with zero cardio, me included. I prefer to prioritise my energy to lifting weights and just eat a bit less. But if you like doing cardio to allow you to keep eating more food, do that.

Keto diets are extremely restrictive. This is helpful for some people, but if you can successfully stick to a more normal lower calorie diet I think this is better as you'll likely be able to stick to it for longer, in part as it's easier and allows you to eat things you'd normally enjoy.

If you want to do some reading, try this:

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/comparing-the-diets-part-1.html/


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## Baggy (Jan 7, 2011)

Ledge mate thanks


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## Baggy (Jan 7, 2011)

Ultrasonic said:


> Plenty of people have got lean with zero cardio, me included. I prefer to prioritise my energy to lifting weights and just eat a bit less. But if you like doing cardio to allow you to keep eating more food, do that.
> 
> Keto diets are extremely restrictive. This is helpful for some people, but if you can successfully stick to a more normal lower calorie diet I think this is better as you'll likely be able to stick to it for longer, in part as it's easier and allows you to eat things you'd normally enjoy.
> 
> ...


 Hi mate i dropped a few hundred kals last couple weeks but belly still feels big - hate it

should i add in cardio? Or drop even more kals do u think?

I still badly need to grow and add muscle but also lose belly fat


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Baggy said:


> Hi mate i dropped a few hundred kals last couple weeks but belly still feels big - hate it
> 
> should i add in cardio? Or drop even more kals do u think?
> 
> I still badly need to grow and add muscle but also lose belly fat


 Have you lost weight? Have you lost body fat? How many calories have you reduced by? I suggest 750 kcal above...

You won't suddenly get lean in two weeks.


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## Baggy (Jan 7, 2011)

Ultrasonic said:


> Have you lost weight? Have you lost body fat? How many calories have you reduced by? I suggest 750 kcal above...
> 
> You won't suddenly get lean in two weeks.


 Havent lost weight or cm's around waist. Dropped approx 500kals/day

i still want to grow muscle if possible


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Baggy said:


> Havent lost weight or cm's around waist. Dropped approx 500kals/day


 I'd drop calories by another 500 kcal then.


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## Baggy (Jan 7, 2011)

Ultrasonic said:


> I'd drop calories by another 500 kcal then.


 Wow ok mate happy to try that this week

possible to still grow/add muscle on this? Still no need for cv?


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Baggy said:


> Wow ok mate happy to try that this week
> 
> possible to still grow/add muscle on this? Still no need for cv?


 I'm sure I've said this before...

To lose fat you need to eat fewer calories than you use, so you can do whatever combination of eating fewer calories or moving more (cardio) that you want. Cutting calories you eat will have more predictable results though since it's tough to estimate how many calories are burned doing cardio.

The fatter you are the more likely you are to be able to a little muscle at the same time, but the more realistic goal should be to not lose muscle.


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## Baggy (Jan 7, 2011)

Thanks yes you have mate ??

Ok well that sounds like a plan before trying something like keto.

Drop those extra kals and keep lifting as much as i can and hope the fat actually comes off the middle section (unlikely but hopeful) only!!


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Baggy said:


> Thanks yes you have mate ??
> 
> Ok well that sounds like a plan before trying something like keto.
> 
> Drop those extra kals and keep lifting as much as i can and hope the fat actually comes off the middle section (unlikely but hopeful) only!!


 Fat loss is easy - eat fewer calories than you use and it will happen with absolute certainty. Fat loss will be over your whole body though, not just your abdomen. Photos are a good way to track progress. You could also consider using calipers to make skinfold measurements.


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## Baggy (Jan 7, 2011)

Ultrasonic said:


> Fat loss is easy - eat fewer calories than you use and it will happen with absolute certainty. Fat loss will be over your whole body though, not just your abdomen. Photos are a good way to track progress. You could also consider using calipers to make skinfold measurements.


 Thanks. Yeah i take pic every week. Dont look any different to 12 weeks ago though despite 11lbs adding!

i also use tape measure to measure waist

yeah shame it wont just come off the areas u really want it to!


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Baggy said:


> Thanks. Yeah i take pic every week. Dont look any different to 12 weeks ago though despite 11lbs adding!


 OK, I don't want this to sound rude, but that's probably because your body fat level is on the high side. When body fat levels are lower you can see changes in muscle definition, but at higher body fat levels it's harder to see small changes. This is the major reason you'll find lean bulking easier once you've dropped some body fat.

Calipers are cheap and will help you pick up changes sooner if you want to.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Accu-Measure-Fitness-Personal-Tester/dp/B000G7YW74/ref=sr_1_sc_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1483803592&sr=8-1-spell&keywords=accumeasrure+calipers


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## anabolik (Aug 19, 2010)

If you'e unhappy with your level of fat gain then cut down until you are. Then go back to bulking with fewer calories or maybe a higher ratio of protein in your daily cals and you shouldn't get as chubby next time.

Fat gain is much easier to control when you're already lean because you see every little bit that goes on, when you're fatter it just gets lost in the sea of fat and you barely notice a few pounds of fat gain.


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## Etoboss (Dec 1, 2015)

@Baggy

Edit sorry never mind seen your op

so you be on 2.5k cals next week that's with a 1k cal drop. Still seems to high in cals at 2.5?


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## Baggy (Jan 7, 2011)

Etoboss said:


> @Baggy
> 
> Edit sorry never mind seen your op
> 
> so you be on 2.5k cals next week that's with a 1k cal drop. Still seems to high in cals at 2.5?


 Really? I was thinking 2500 kals is tiny amount? bearing in mind I still want to grow muscle while losing some off the belly if possible.

@Ultrasonic just for reference if dropping down 1k kals should I be expecting to grow on the scales with the weight lifting or reduce lbs on the scales due to the reduction in kals mate?


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## Etoboss (Dec 1, 2015)

Just going off my personal experience really mate. Have never been able to loose bf without going under 2k cals natty.

buidling muscle while in a cut I find to be impossible natty.

If cutting with a low dose test it can be done.

Maybe best bet and what I am doing now is using clen to retain muscle while cutting on low cals then when get bf to where I want it then up cals slowly while keeping an eye on bf.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Baggy said:


> @Ultrasonic just for reference if dropping down 1k kals should I be expecting to grow on the scales with the weight lifting or reduce lbs on the scales due to the reduction in kals mate?


 If you want to be losing fat you need your weight to be dropping. Losing weight is a MUCH easier and faster process than gaining muscle naturally. I'd suggest you aim to lose about 1lb per week.

If you managed to gain 11lb without noticing it in the mirror I think you really need to be making fat loss your priority and stop always thinking about gaining muscle. You will look better/bigger at lower body fat, but it's going to take you a good while to get there I'm afraid.


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## Baggy (Jan 7, 2011)

Ultrasonic said:


> If you want to be losing fat you need your weight to be dropping. Losing weight is a MUCH easier and faster process than gaining muscle naturally. I'd suggest you aim to lose about 1lb per week.
> 
> If you managed to gain 11lb without noticing it in the mirror I think you really need to be making fat loss your priority and stop always thinking about gaining muscle. You will look better/bigger at lower body fat, but it's going to take you a good while to get there I'm afraid.


 Cheers mate, yeah I cant say I've noticed anything really since adding some weight over the last 12 weeks or so. back is a bit better and arms probably grown a cm or 2 as had chest, but to look in the mirror personally im hard pressed to see much to get excited about!!


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Baggy said:


> Cheers mate, yeah I cant say I've noticed anything really since adding some weight over the last 12 weeks or so. back is a bit better and arms probably grown a cm or 2 as had chest, but to look in the mirror personally im hard pressed to see much to get excited about!!


 I thought you'd said photos? A mirror is always going to be very subjective. A 2cm gain in the size of your arms is significant!


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## Baggy (Jan 7, 2011)

Ultrasonic said:


> I thought you'd said photos? A mirror is always going to be very subjective. A 2cm gain in the size of your arms is significant!


 Yeah I take photos once a week too - still cant really notice much - no real definition just a bit fuller maybe, legs a bit more noticeable. But as said midrift larger which is the main annoyance.

If I could I would just bulk for a year and then try to cut but I fear after a year id literally be able ot roll out the gym.

im just adjusting my bulk plan now to bring it down to 2500 kals.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Baggy said:


> Yeah I take photos once a week too - still cant really notice much - no real definition just a bit fuller maybe, legs a bit more noticeable. But as said midrift larger which is the main annoyance.
> 
> If I could I would just bulk for a year and then try to cut but I fear after a year id literally be able ot roll out the gym.
> 
> im just adjusting my bulk plan now to bring it down to 2500 kals.


 Do this by dropping carbs and fat, keeping protein high.


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## Baggy (Jan 7, 2011)

Ultrasonic said:


> Do this by dropping carbs and fat, keeping protein high.


 ok mate can I ask what you thin of this split? wasn't sure if to put it here or my other thread:

New plan for now -

*Kals - 2,683*

*Protein - 239.5*

*Fat - 75.5*

*Carbs - 198*

My current weight is 202.4lbs.


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## Sphinkter (Apr 10, 2015)

Cut down to below 15% or at whatever point you can clearly see your abs. I'm not saying be ripped to fk but decently lean.

its so much easier to notice when you're gaining fat instead of muscle and therefore control your calories appropriately. you'll see a lbs of fat on your lean frame so much more than a lbs of fat when you already have a gut.

22% is a terrible position to bulk from and if you're natty you'll lose muscle when cutting especially if it's for an extended period of time, which it will be if you're fat.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Baggy said:


> ok mate can I ask what you thin of this split? wasn't sure if to put it here or my other thread:
> 
> New plan for now -
> 
> ...


 Looks OK, but if you're aiming for 2500 kcal you obviously need to reduce calories by about another 200 kcal.


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## Baggy (Jan 7, 2011)

Sphinkter said:


> Cut down to below 15% or at whatever point you can clearly see your abs. I'm not saying be ripped to fk but decently lean.
> 
> its so much easier to notice when you're gaining fat instead of muscle and therefore control your calories appropriately. you'll see a lbs of fat on your lean frame so much more than a lbs of fat when you already have a gut.
> 
> 22% is a terrible position to bulk from and if you're natty you'll lose muscle when cutting especially if it's for an extended period of time, which it will be if you're fat.


 Cheers mate, yeah that's the main problem losing any of the small amount of muscle gained from the bulk!!! being natty is hard enough anyway to get a lb on let alone lose it again after!!!


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## Baggy (Jan 7, 2011)

Ultrasonic said:


> Looks OK, but if you're aiming for 2500 kcal you obviously need to reduce calories by about another 200 kcal.


 Yeah, I could chop out the almonds, they're 162 kals and 14 fat right away!


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Baggy said:


> Cheers mate, yeah that's the main problem losing any of the small amount of muscle gained from the bulk!!! being natty is hard enough anyway to get a lb on let alone lose it again after!!!


 At your body fat level losing muscle really shouldn't be much of a concern at all. I think it's generally a problem grossly exaggerated by people who wrongly think that all the fat they've gained is actually muscle.

Also, assuming you're training primarily for aesthetics, gaining muscle you can't see because it's hidden by a layer of fat is somewhat pointless. If you get leaner you will look bigger with your shirt off, and it will be able to see gains you do make. Also, once you've got leaner once it's far easier to maintain.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Baggy said:


> Yeah, I could chop out the almonds, they're 162 kals and 14 fat right away!


 That would work. I wouldn't drop fat lower than that though (20% of total calories).


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## Baggy (Jan 7, 2011)

Ultrasonic said:


> At your body fat level losing muscle really shouldn't be much of a concern at all. I think it's generally a problem grossly exaggerated by people who wrongly think that all the fat they've gained is actually muscle.
> 
> Also, assuming you're training primarily for aesthetics, gaining muscle you can't see because it's hidden by a layer of fat is somewhat pointless. If you get leaner you will look bigger with your shirt off, and it will beverages to see gains you do make. Also, once you've got leaner once it's far easier to maintain.


 Cheers - issue I previously had was dieting down I literally was just skin and bones lol, no real muscle tone AT ALL.... was devastating! So I had planned to try and put on some overall mass - some fat some muscle - to fill out so that when I do have to drop some lbs I actually have a half decent base framework left to work on.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Baggy said:


> Cheers - issue I previously had was dieting down I literally was just skin and bones lol, no real muscle tone AT ALL.... was devastating! So I had planned to try and put on some overall mass - some fat some muscle - to fill out so that when I do have to drop some lbs I actually have a half decent base framework left to work on.


 I know. If you want to stay fat, do so. All I and the other people in this thread can do is to offer our honest opinions on how you can best reach your long term goals.

If you cut to the point you feel you're starting to get uncomfortably thin, stop. But I think you're a way off that at the moment, right?


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## Baggy (Jan 7, 2011)

Ultrasonic said:


> I know. If you want to stay fat, do so. All I and the other people in this thread can do is to offer our honest opinions on how you can best reach your long term goals.
> 
> If you cut to the point you feel you're starting to get uncomfortably thin, stop. But I think you're a way off that at the moment, right?


 yeah definitely right mate. I have an ideal physique in mind but to get there I need to lose a shed load of stomach timber and add a whole lotta muscle 

am I right in thinking you said drop these 1k kals and no need to add in cv for the time being?


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Baggy said:


> Am I right in thinking you said drop these 1k kals and no need to add in cv for the time being?


 Yes.

You need to eat fewer calories than you use to lose fat. If you want to do cardio some days to allow you to eat a bit more that's fine, but the difficulty is in estimating how many calories are used doing cardio. Given how high your calories are at the moment I would just focus on eating less personally.


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## Baggy (Jan 7, 2011)

Ultrasonic said:


> Yes.
> 
> You need to eat fewer calories than you use to lose fat. If you want to do cardio some days to allow you to eat a bit more that's fine, but the difficulty is in estimating how many calories are used doing cardio. Given how high your calories are at the moment I would just focus on eating less personally.


 Thanks for all your help again today mate.

I have got the food plan down to this now which I think "should" see some results if I keep everything else the same in terms of gym routines and rest of daily life....

*Kals @ 2,521.5*

*Protein @ 233*

*Fats @ 61.5*

*Carbs @ 196*

Seem ok?


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## Sphinkter (Apr 10, 2015)

Baggy said:


> yeah definitely right mate. I have an ideal physique in mind but to get there I need to lose a shed load of stomach timber and add a whole lotta muscle
> 
> am I right in thinking you said drop these 1k kals and no need to add in cv for the time being?


 You just have to get the idea of being big out your head TBH, unless you're big to begin with you aren't gona be big n lean especially natty.

you can still build muscle and look good but if you've got a small frame that's just how it is. When I cut natty I was barely over 11 stone at 5 9 but I looked ten times better than I did at 13 stone with a 34" waist.

my goal is to be like 85kg ripped and that's with steroids lol.


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## Baggy (Jan 7, 2011)

Sphinkter said:


> You just have to get the idea of being big out your head TBH, unless you're big to begin with you aren't gona be big n lean especially natty.
> 
> you can still build muscle and look good but if you've got a small frame that's just how it is. When I cut natty I was barely over 11 stone at 5 9 but I looked ten times better than I did at 13 stone with a 34" waist.
> 
> my goal is to be like 85kg ripped and that's with steroids lol.


 Yeah I see your point..... id like to look big in clothes and then still look well shirtless.  

Im 6'2" and currently 202lbs


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## Sphinkter (Apr 10, 2015)

Baggy said:


> Yeah I see your point..... id like to look big in clothes and then still look well shirtless.
> 
> Im 6'2" and currently 202lbs


 Get lean and buy smaller tshirts


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## Baggy (Jan 7, 2011)

Ultrasonic said:


> That would work. I wouldn't drop fat lower than that though (20% of total calories).


 Done my final version tweaking some bits... these are the final numbers for now:

*Cals - 2,528*

*Protein - 238*

*Fats - 60*

*Carbs - 196*

Does that seem ok? wasn't sure about your comment above on 20% fats


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Baggy said:


> Done my final version tweaking some bits... these are the final numbers for now:
> 
> *Cals - 2,528*
> 
> ...


 Those numbers don't add up properly, unless you're eating over 100g fibre per day! Are you using Myfitnesspal? My guess is the calorie total is right but the macro values are off for one or two foods, but if you check I'm sure you'll find some errors.

The reason I know the numbers don't add up is that EU food label calories are calculated as 4 kcal per gram of carbs and protein, 9 kcal per gram of fat and 2 kcal per gram of fibre (which is very approximate).


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## Baggy (Jan 7, 2011)

Ultrasonic said:


> Those numbers don't add up properly, unless you're eating over 100g fibre per day! Are you using Myfitnesspal? My guess is the calorie total is right but the macro values are off for one or two foods, but if you check I'm sure you'll find some errors.
> 
> The reason I know the numbers don't add up is that EU food label calories are calculated as 4 kcal per gram of carbs and protein, 9 kcal per gram of fat and 2 kcal per gram of fibre (which is very approximate).


 hmm, I just based it on my original bulk plan and edited some bits out....

here's the actual diet, hope I haven't got it wrong took me ages lol



*Meal 1*

3 large eggs scrambled

234

22

15

0



2 Genius wheat-free seaded toast

208

3

7

30













*Meal 2*

120g chicken

197

37

4

0



100g brown rice

132.5

2.5

1

28



Apple

72

0.5

0

15.5













*Pre-Workout*

10g X-Plode

37.5

6.5

0

2.5

*Intra-Workout*

Sizeon

180

7

0

40













*Meal 3*

1 scoop Protein shake + 200ml milk

228

27

8

11



120g chicken

197

37

4

0



50g brown rice

66

1.5

0.5

14



1/2 pack mashed potato

175

2

4.5

12













*Meal 4*

100g chicken

164

31

3

0



50g brown rice

66

1.5

0.5

14













*Meal 5*

120g chicken

197

37

4

0



mixed veg

25

3

0.5

0.5



1/2 pack mashed potato

175

2

4.5

12













*Meal 6*

SKYR Yoghurt 150g

112

14

0

12



100ml milk

62

3.5

3.5

4.5

















2528

238

60

196


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

From a quick look the potato values are definitely wrong. Nothing else leaps out at me right now.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

You should check the data for foods you've removed as well or you won't really know your true starting point or how much you've reduced calories by.

You can obviously lose fat by simply eating less, but if you want to try to be more in control you need to get the data right.


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## Baggy (Jan 7, 2011)

Ultrasonic said:


> You should check the data for foods you've removed as well or you won't really know your true starting point or how much you've reduced calories by.
> 
> You can obviously lose fat by simply eating less, but if you want to try to be more in control you need to get the data right.


 Thanks - I have 2 graphs now -= the original one with the 3500+ and now this one.

the mashed potato is a packet thing from the co-op so will double check the values of it today as I just spilt the pot in half....


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## TinTin10 (Nov 22, 2016)

Found some brown rice and quinoa microwavable packet rice in Aldi today.

69p.


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## Etoboss (Dec 1, 2015)

TinTin10 said:


> Found some brown rice and quinoa microwavable packet rice in Aldi today.
> 
> 69p.


 Brown rice NASTY lol hate that stuff. Makes me feel sick. White basmati rice taste so nice and not much diff


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## SimpleLimit (Aug 13, 2016)

@Ultrasonic

I was wondering about the cutting part,

say I am 85kgs, should I be cutting down to 80kgs or 75kgs ?

or do you guys go over for example cutting for 12 weeks and that's it ?


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

SimpleLimit said:


> @Ultrasonic
> 
> I was wondering about the cutting part,
> 
> ...


 It obviously depends how much fat you have to lose and what your desired end point is.


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## SimpleLimit (Aug 13, 2016)

Ultrasonic said:


> It obviously depends how much fat you have to lose and what your desired end point is.


 I am pretty sure I am around 20% body fat,

I want to in the end stay on 80kgs looking ripped as fck.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

SimpleLimit said:


> I am pretty sure I am around 20% body fat,
> 
> I want to in the end stay on 80kgs looking ripped as fck.


 I meant the end point of the cut  . As in it depends on the total amount of fat that someone is looking to lose.

If you aren't cutting to compete you don't need to start out with a particular end point in mind, although psychologically I think it can be easier to set a time frame. You can also mix up periods of cutting and gaining rather than having long periods of doing one or the other. Say cut for a month or two then focus on gaining for a month, and repeating. Once someone has got leaner this can be maintained with occasional mini-cuts of a week or two. I'm talking lean enough to look decent not stage lean of course!


----------



## Baggy (Jan 7, 2011)

Ultrasonic said:


> I meant the end point of the cut  . As in it depends on the total amount of fat that someone is looking to lose.
> 
> If you aren't cutting to compete you don't need to start out with a particular end point in mind, although psychologically I think it can be easier to set a time frame. You can also mix up periods of cutting and gaining rather than having long periods of doing one or the other. Say cut for a month or two then focus on gaining for a month, and repeating. Once someone has got leaner this can be maintained with occasional mini-cuts of a week or two. I'm talking lean enough to look decent not stage lean of course!


 Hi mate I checked the mash potato pot - the cals and everything are fine although the carbs are 28g per half a pot.... is this too much do you think? am I best to stick to just chicken and brown rice while trying to cut some crap out?

also thinking to reduce meal 4 down to just the chicken to cut a bit more out


----------



## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Baggy said:


> Hi mate I checked the mash potato pot - the cals and everything are fine although the carbs are 28g per half a pot....


 So your total calorie values have always been right but the carb total has been low?


----------



## Baggy (Jan 7, 2011)

Ultrasonic said:


> So your total calorie values have always been right but the carb total has been low?


 Yeah cals are all fine but carbs I had down as 12 are actually 28 for this meal...


----------



## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Baggy said:


> Yeah cals are all fine but carbs I had down as 12 are actually 28 for this meal...


 Have you checked everything else? You're getting there but you'd need to be eating 62g of fibre per day for the numbers to add up now I think, which I doubt is correct.

We're probably close enough that what you've proposed looks sensible though.


----------



## Baggy (Jan 7, 2011)

Ultrasonic said:


> Have you checked everything else? You're getting there but you'd need to be eating 62g of fibre per day for the numbers to add up now I think, which I doubt is correct.
> 
> We're probably close enough that what you've proposed looks sensible though.


 Thanks yes everything else seems good. I have no idea on fibre intake though - will go back through it all and add up fibre lol.... either that or I have some of those fibregel sachets at home that might just use to bulk it up


----------



## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Baggy said:


> Thanks yes everything else seems good. I have no idea on fibre intake though - will go back through it all and add up fibre lol.... either that or I have some of those fibregel sachets at home that might just use to bulk it up


 Are you using Myfitnesspal? It gives you a fibre total without you needing to add anything up.

And to be clear I wasn't suggesting that you ate more fibre, just that the only way for your numbers to be correct would be IF you were eating 62g of fibre per day, which I'm virtually certain you aren't which is why I'm pretty confident there are still other errors. But probably not significant ones.

FWIW I think potato is a good carb source when cutting - better than rice or pasta due to the higher volume/fibre content. I tend to have oven chips rather than mashed potato though  .


----------



## Baggy (Jan 7, 2011)

Ultrasonic said:


> Are you using Myfitnesspal? It gives you a fibre total without you needing to add anything up.
> 
> And to be clear I wasn't suggesting that you ate more fibre, just that the only way for your numbers to be correct would be IF you were eating 62g of fibre per day, which I'm virtually certain you aren't which is why I'm pretty confident there are still other errors. But probably not significant ones.
> 
> FWIW I think potato is a good carb source when cutting - better than rice or pasta due to the higher volume/fibre content. I tend to have oven chips rather than mashed potato though  .


 Ah ok thanks, im just adding up the fibre as we speak.....

I have found some nice, wheat free, oven chips but had no idea they were ok to eat while trying to lose some unwanted weight!


----------



## Baggy (Jan 7, 2011)

Ultrasonic said:


> IF you were eating 62g of fibre per day, which I'm virtually certain you aren't which is why I'm pretty confident there are still other errors. But probably not significant ones.


 its about 25g fibre in total mate I've added up


----------



## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Baggy said:


> its about 25g fibre in total mate I've added up


 More like what I thought, so there are definitely some other errors somewhere.


----------



## Baggy (Jan 7, 2011)

Ultrasonic said:


> More like what I thought, so there are definitely some other errors somewhere.


 Is it ok to run with as it is for now would you say mate? im hardly in competition mode just yet lol 

This is the final-ish tweaked version now:







*cals*

*protein*

*fat*

*carbs*

*Meal 1*

3 large eggs scrambled

234

22

15

0



2 Genius wheat-free seeded toast

208

3

7

30













*Meal 2*

120g chicken

197

37

4

0



100g cooked brown rice

132.5

2.5

1

28



Apple

72

0.5

0

15.5













*Pre-Workout*

10g X-Plode

37.5

6.5

0

2.5

*Intra-Workout*

Sizeon

180

7

0

40













*Meal 3*

1 scoop Protein shake + 200ml milk

228

27

8

11



120g chicken

197

37

4

0



1/2 pack mashed potato

175

2

4.5

28













*Meal 4*

100g chicken

164

31

3

0



50g cooked brown rice

66

1.5

0.5

14













*Meal 5*

120g chicken

197

37

4

0



mixed veg

25

3

0.5

0.5



1/2 pack mashed potato

175

2

4.5

28













*Meal 6*

SKYR Yoghurt 150g

112

14

0

12



100ml milk

62

3.5

3.5

4.5

















2462

236.5

59.5

214


----------



## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Baggy said:


> Ah ok thanks, im just adding up the fibre as we speak.....
> 
> I have found some nice, wheat free, oven chips but had no idea they were ok to eat while trying to lose some unwanted weight!


 Basic oven chips are just potato and a little vegetable oil, so they are zero problem. As you've found, lots of chips have coatings containing wheat that you'd want to avoid due to your intolerance.

I usually buy Mccain crinkle cut chips are they have good unambiguous nutritional data.


----------



## Baggy (Jan 7, 2011)

Ultrasonic said:


> Basic oven chips are just potato and a little vegetable oil, so they are zero problem. As you've found, lots of chips have coatings containing wheat that you'd want to avoid due to your intolerance.
> 
> I usually buy Mccain crinkle cut chips are they have good unambiguous nutritional data.


 Yeah, Mccain are the ones we have too mate. Thanks for all your advice, again!

im downloading that myfitnesspal now to my phone that u mentioned as previously I got macros from tescos website as that's where we shop


----------



## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Yes it's OK to go with, I said that above  .


----------



## Baggy (Jan 7, 2011)

Ultrasonic said:


> Yes it's OK to go with, I said that above  .


 thanks mate, down to under 2500 cals im expecting to feel a bit hungry - main thing for me is to try and keep adding the weights in the gym if poss!


----------



## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Baggy said:


> Yeah, Mccain are the ones we have too mate. Thanks for all your advice, again!
> 
> im downloading that myfitnesspal now to my phone that u mentioned as previously I got macros from tescos website as that's where we shop


 Myfitnesspal is good for TRACKING but not as an absolutely reliable source of data (its just entered by other users) - so check numbers against food labels the first time you pick anything.

If you've got something else you're happy with that's fine too.


----------



## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Baggy said:


> thanks mate, down to under 2500 cals im expecting to feel a bit hungry - main thing for me is to try and keep adding the weights in the gym if poss!


 If you're trying to lose weight you should expect to feel a bit hungry, but hopefully not starving. The high protein content of your diet will help with this.

This may sound daft but I like to tell myself that feeling a little hungry is what fat loss feels like, and try to embrace just like I would DOMS.


----------



## Baggy (Jan 7, 2011)

Ultrasonic said:


> Myfitnesspal is good for TRACKING but not as an absolutely reliable source of data (its just entered by other users) - so check numbers against food labels the first time you pick anything.
> 
> If you've got something else you're happy with that's fine too.


 Yeah thanks - I remember trying "MFP" before and the macros were pretty far off the label of the actual food I had infront of me so I didn't use it, but will revert back for a quick check up.


----------



## Baggy (Jan 7, 2011)

Ultrasonic said:


> If you're trying to lose weight you should expect to feel like bit hungry, but hopefully not starving. The high protein content of your diet will help with this.
> 
> This may sound daft but I like to tell myself that feeling a little hungry is what fat loss feels like, and try to embrace just like I would DOMS.


 haha - yes exactly my thought process. if im not hungry I don't feel like im going to be trimming!!!

now I have my protein down to 236 I think its better as was up close to 280 at the start and at 200lbs that was too much and prob didn't help with some fat gain.


----------



## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Baggy said:


> Yeah thanks - I remember trying "MFP" before and the macros were pretty far off the label of the actual food I had infront of me so I didn't use it, but will revert back for a quick check up.


 It won't help you check things because as I said it is often wrong! Mine is only right because I fix the mistakes  .


----------



## SimpleLimit (Aug 13, 2016)

Ultrasonic said:


> I meant the end point of the cut  . As in it depends on the total amount of fat that someone is looking to lose.
> 
> If you aren't cutting to compete you don't need to start out with a particular end point in mind, although psychologically I think it can be easier to set a time frame. You can also mix up periods of cutting and gaining rather than having long periods of doing one or the other. Say cut for a month or two then focus on gaining for a month, and repeating. Once someone has got leaner this can be maintained with occasional mini-cuts of a week or two. I'm talking lean enough to look decent not stage lean of course!


 Okay cool

I saw you mentioned to Baggy to drop his kcal by 750, what about after the cutting period ?

how much should you be adding back to your diet ? or just go with 750 initially and then increase as fit ?


----------



## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

SimpleLimit said:


> Okay cool
> 
> I saw you mentioned to Baggy to drop his kcal by 750, what about after the cutting period ?
> 
> how much should you be adding back to your diet ? or just go with 750 initially and then increase as fit ?


 It's not as simple as tha. Best ask the question in a thread of your own if you end up cutting at some point.


----------



## Baggy (Jan 7, 2011)

Ultrasonic said:


> It won't help you check things because as I said it is often wrong! Mine is only right because I fix the mistakes  .


 Hi mate dropped 1.8lbs this week thanks


----------



## Baggy (Jan 7, 2011)

Ultrasonic said:


> If you're trying to lose weight you should expect to feel a bit hungry, but hopefully not starving. The high protein content of your diet will help with this.
> 
> This may sound daft but I like to tell myself that feeling a little hungry is what fat loss feels like, and try to embrace just like I would DOMS.


 Hi mate, dropped 0.8lbs this week. Kept measurements same pretty much everywhere but dropped 1/4 of a cm off arms. ?

Also around 1/4 to 1/2 cm off midrift altho obviously no difference yet in mirror


----------



## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Baggy said:


> Hi mate, dropped 0.8lbs this week. Kept measurements same pretty much everywhere but dropped 1/4 of a cm off arms. ?
> 
> Also around 1/4 to 1/2 cm off midrift altho obviously no difference yet in mirror


 Sounds like you're doing fine, although I'd stop obsessing about measurements. Keep lifting the same weights in the gym and keep calories where they are to lose fat and you're sorted.

Oh, and in case this isn't obvious you'd expect a smaller weight loss this week than the first week, since part of the initial weight drop will have been due to less food passing through your body, as well as probably some water loss due to lower muscle glycogen levels.


----------



## Baggy (Jan 7, 2011)

Ultrasonic said:


> Sounds like you're doing fine, although I'd stop obsessing about measurements. Keep lifting the same weights in the gym and keep calories where they are to lose fat and you're sorted.
> 
> Oh, and in case this isn't obvious you'd expect a smaller weight loss this week than the first week, since part of the initial weight drop will have been due to less food passing through your body, as well as probably some water loss due to lower muscle glycogen levels.


 Thanks mate. I also dropped the creatine mono and just using sizeon intra-worout

hopefully if i can keep same of even better increase weights i can get some definition not just end up getting skinny and no muscle!!


----------



## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Baggy said:


> Thanks mate. I also dropped the creatine mono and* just using sizeon intra-worout*


 When you've finished what you have I'd suggest you save your money and switch back to a basic creatine monohydrate.


----------



## Baggy (Jan 7, 2011)

Ultrasonic said:


> When you've finished what you have I'd suggest you save your money and switch back to a basic creatine monohydrate.


 Thing i dont really get is all i seem to do is put on some weight and not look any different. Then lose some lbs and still dont look any different.

Cant ever seem to bulk and look muscular. Just either a bit fat and stocky or a bit less fat and skinny looking (shoulders and chest).

I work my arse off in gym. 4 times per week. Strict on my eating etc


----------



## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Baggy said:


> Thing i dont really get is all i seem to do is put on some weight and not look any different. Then lose some lbs and still dont look any different.


 I don't want this to sound harsh but I'm pretty sure this is somply because you have too much body fat.


----------



## Baggy (Jan 7, 2011)

Ultrasonic said:


> I don't want this to sound harsh but I'm pretty sure this is somply because you have too much body fat.


 Nah not harsh at all mate. U could well be right. But when i lost like 15lbs 2 years ago to diet down i still wasnt ripped i just lookef gaunt and ill which wasnt a good look!!!


----------



## 66983 (May 30, 2016)

Baggy said:


> Hi mate, dropped 0.8lbs this week. Kept measurements same pretty much everywhere but dropped 1/4 of a cm off arms. ?
> 
> Also around 1/4 to 1/2 cm off midrift altho obviously no difference yet in mirror


 on my last cut from 18-20% BF down to 7.6% in 12 weeks I lost 1.5" off my arms, however they looked bigger because they had more definition!

I also dropped nearly 2 stones (26lbs)

Don't expect a few lbs to make a difference, you have to just keep going until you are happy (which we never are).

I'm now 2.5 months on and back to the weight I started at (bulking for 6 months).


----------



## Baggy (Jan 7, 2011)

Sparkey said:


> on my last cut from 18-20% BF down to 7.6% in 12 weeks I lost 1.5" off my arms, however they looked bigger because they had more definition!


 Jesus mate how did u get to that BF in 12wks? Natural?


----------



## 66983 (May 30, 2016)

Baggy said:


> Jesus mate how did u get to that BF in 12wks? Natural?


 Err....no.

The only thing I was on was Test at 300 a week (to keep as much muscle as poss).

Reduced calories over the 12 weeks from 3000 to 1800, 40 mins fasted cardio 3 times a week turned into 40 minutes fasted cardio every day, turned into 40 minutes cardio twice a day (one fasted).

I did Monday low carb (under 50g a day) Tues same, Weds same, Thursday high carb (300g) Friday Low again (3 days low, 4th day high).

On the low carb days I had my carbs after my am fasted cardio, usually had 4 eggs on one slice of brown toast, that was my carbs for the day, every other meal was protein.

3-5 ltrs of water a day as the fat loss releases toxins into the blood.

I have tried many different ways to loose fat but this worked the best for me personally, it may not work for you or others, you have to find what does.

Good luck.


----------



## Baggy (Jan 7, 2011)

Sparkey said:


> Err....no.
> 
> The only thing I was on was Test at 300 a week (to keep as much muscle as poss).
> 
> ...


 Incredible mate. As i mentioned i seem to lose weight before but still not be ripped in the slightest. Just a smaller version of my higher BF self !!

ive dropped 1k kals a day at moment but not doing any cv and i still ideally want to grow more muscle just lose some midrift fat


----------



## 66983 (May 30, 2016)

Baggy said:


> Incredible mate. As i mentioned i seem to lose weight before but still not be ripped in the slightest. Just a smaller version of my higher BF self !!
> 
> ive dropped 1k kals a day at moment but not doing any cv and i still ideally want to grow more muscle just lose some midrift fat


 One thing to remember is, if you are in a calorie deficit your not building muscle, you need a surplus of calories to do that, and nobody is building quality muscle under 2500 calories a day!


----------



## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Baggy said:


> Incredible mate. As i mentioned i seem to lose weight before but still not be ripped in the slightest. Just a smaller version of my higher BF self !!


 Dieting will make you look smaller up until the point you start to see some muscle definition, at which point you'll start to look bigger as Sparkey described. I don't think you've ever got lean enough to reach this point.


----------



## Baggy (Jan 7, 2011)

Ultrasonic said:


> Dieting will make you look smaller up until the point you start to see some muscle definition, at which point you'll start to look bigger as Sparkey described. I don't think you've ever got lean enough to reach this point.


 Definitely not. But i did get very very slim 3 years ago and looked so ill and drawn out - but still no definition. Just a child looking top half :-(

maybe there is just no muscle yet lol


----------



## Baggy (Jan 7, 2011)

Ultrasonic said:


> Dieting will make you look smaller up until the point you start to see some muscle definition, at which point you'll start to look bigger as Sparkey described. I don't think you've ever got lean enough to reach this point.


 Ive read up a lot on here and noticed other threads people talking about a 2-3 week mini cut. Is that what i should be aiming for with this 1000cal a day reduction?

do some cv, keep weights up, 2500 cals a day and then after the 2-3 weeks get back up on the cals to grow more?


----------



## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Baggy said:


> Ive read up a lot on here and noticed other threads people talking about a 2-3 week mini cut. Is that what i should be aiming for with this 1000cal a day reduction?
> 
> do some cv, keep weights up, 2500 cals a day and then after the 2-3 weeks get back up on the cals to grow more?


 Not if your intention is still to get leaner. Mini-cuts are for people looking to maintain body fat levels within a particular range.

There are an infinite set of options for how you could mix up fat loss and gaining phases but for right now my advice would be for you to stick with what you're currently doing.


----------



## Lifesizepenguin (Jul 25, 2016)

Baggy said:


> Nah not harsh at all mate. U could well be right. But when i lost like 15lbs 2 years ago to diet down i still wasnt ripped i just lookef gaunt and ill which wasnt a good look!!!


 2 years ago you werent lifting like you are now though where you?

And I imagine you werent hitting your protein goals for the day every day either.

you will notice more muscle gain when you are low bodyfat.


----------



## Baggy (Jan 7, 2011)

Ultrasonic said:


> Not if your intention is still to get leaner. Mini-cuts are for people looking to maintain body fat levels within a particular range.
> 
> There are an infinite set of options for how you could mix up fat loss and gaining phases but for right now my advice would be for you to stick with what you're currently doing.


 Ok thanks mate. Should i add in some cv to try and blast this gut at the same time as dropping the cals


----------



## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Baggy said:


> Ok thanks mate. Should i add in some cv to try and blast this gut at the same time as dropping the cals


 If you want to. For fat loss it will have the same effect of eating a bit less food, but it will be good for your health of you're doing none. Reconsider if you feel it's negatively affecting your gym performance.


----------



## Baggy (Jan 7, 2011)

Ultrasonic said:


> If you want to. For fat loss it will have the same effect of eating a bit less food, but it will be good for your health of you're doing none. Reconsider if you feel it's negatively affecting your gym performance.


 Thanks. I just thought perhaps even a couple of 20-30 min low intensity cv routines (fast walk, x-trainer, uphill walking) a week may speed up the trimming process!


----------



## Baggy (Jan 7, 2011)

Ultrasonic said:


> If you want to. For fat loss it will have the same effect of eating a bit less food, but it will be good for your health of you're doing none. Reconsider if you feel it's negatively affecting your gym performance.


 Morning mate

Woke up feeling hungry today, ate well this week, even dropped the last meal yoghurt for 3-4 of the days. Hit the gym 4 times.

Somehow still managed to gain 0.8lbs now on 200.6lbs - annoying.

Measurements around waist and belly Are the same which is main area of concern and biceps and legs grew a few mm's.


----------



## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Weigh yourself daily for a while if you aren't already, to get an idea of how much it varies day-to-day.

The changes in size you think you're seeing in your arms and legs won't be real, but rather differences in exactly where you measured. I'd stop measuring things like this completely at the moment to be honest as I don't think it's helping you.


----------



## superdrol (Aug 9, 2012)

I'm gonna be brutal and say stop stressing about growing muscle and measurements (you are going to get smaller whether you like it or not, it's a fact, sorry), although your cutting at quite high cals, you won't gain muscle, but you will prob be finding it hard to lose weight, if it's stagnating somewhat I'd drop cals further, 2100 maybe and drop some carbs to achieve this, while carbs aren't bad as such I find protein far more efficient at preventing the hungry feelings and low carbs also seem to work better for me when cutting, presumably something to do with insulin sensitivity or something, but it definitely helps

an example of this would be eat a chocolate bar with 200 cals and a chicken breast with 200 cals, although they are both 200 cals I know which one would fill me up more and whether it's real or in my head the fact that it feels like I'm fuller makes all the difference


----------



## Baggy (Jan 7, 2011)

Ultrasonic said:


> Weigh yourself daily for a while if you aren't already, to get an idea of how much it varies day-to-day.
> 
> The changes in size you think you're seeing in your arms and legs won't be real, but rather differences in exactly where you measured. I'd stop measuring things like this completely at the moment to be honest as I don't think it's helping you.


 Ok mate cheers. Will do daily weigh ins. I think will have to start doing some fasted quick dog walks a few times a week unless i drop cals even more


----------



## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Baggy said:


> Ok mate cheers. Will do daily weigh ins. I think will have to start doing some fasted quick dog walks a few times a week unless i drop cals even more


 Fasted almost certainly won't make you lose any more fat than non-fasted. If there is any difference it's too small to care about. Do cardio whenever suits you best.

You probably do need to drop calories further, or add cardio, but I suggested daily weighing to get a better idea of what is actually going on. Try to be consistent about when you weigh too e.g. first thing in the morning after emptying your bladder.


----------



## Baggy (Jan 7, 2011)

Ultrasonic said:


> Fasted almost certainly won't make you lose any more fat than non-fasted. If there is any difference it's too small to care about. Do cardio whenever suits you best.
> 
> You probably do need to drop calories further, or add cardio, but I suggested daily weighing to get a better idea of what is actually going on. Try to be consistent about when you weigh too e.g. first thing in the morning after emptying your bladder.


 Thanks yes will do. I l know u can expect miracles quickly when natural but basically i have a skinny frame really with a lot of fat just in the midrift / no 'real' fat anywhere else perhaps a small amount lower back.

Driving me nuts as i want to be lean but i dont want to lose any real size. Will keep on with the weights but i HATE my stomach , always have!


----------



## Etoboss (Dec 1, 2015)

Baggy said:


> hmm, I just based it on my original bulk plan and edited some bits out....
> 
> here's the actual diet, hope I haven't got it wrong took me ages lol
> 
> ...


 Mate can I ask the meal 6 is that yogurt mixed with the milk? Just got some of the same yogurt and it's very thick! Was wondering if you thin it down with the milk?


----------



## Baggy (Jan 7, 2011)

Etoboss said:


> Mate can I ask the meal 6 is that yogurt mixed with the milk? Just got some of the same yogurt and it's very thick! Was wondering if you thin it down with the milk?


 Hi mate, I have dropped the milk at the moment but no it wasn't mixed. just a glass separate from the yoghurt.


----------



## Etoboss (Dec 1, 2015)

Cheers mate just struggle to eat this yogurt being so thick but will just ride it out


----------



## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Etoboss said:


> Cheers mate just struggle to eat this yogurt being so thick but will just ride it out


 Why don't you try taking a small bit out of the pot and mixing it with a bit of milk to see if it works/helps?

Personally I'm not a fan of the bitter taste.


----------



## Etoboss (Dec 1, 2015)

ye will try it tomz when get the 150g pots mate.. I just need a nice tasting protein snack for night time. Was having muscle food protein Crisps but so so dry! So wanted to try summit different. Meats ect is a no no for me and shakes defo a no no at night. Man I struggle like hell to eat 1200 cals! Due to my mega low test levels has killed my appetite.


----------



## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Etoboss said:


> Man I struggle like hell to eat 1200 cals! Due to my mega low test levels has killed my appetite.


 If you're struggling to eat enough calories then make sure you aren't eating too much protein, since this has more of a satiating effect than fat or carbs. Actually, full fat Greek Yoghurt may be a better bet if you want extra calories? It tasts A LOT nicer than Skyr!


----------



## Etoboss (Dec 1, 2015)

Really! Will have a look tomz for that mate

All I eat and this is like forcing it down

3 medium eggs in morn

2 muscle food chicken chunks on sticks so can eat on the go.

Tea time 250g 5% lean mince. Half pack basmati rice. Half jar chilli.

Then night been having protein crisp up to now but need to change that.

Ye I no really poor diet lol but just can't eat! I can eat the above just about!

View attachment IMG_1017.PNG


----------



## Etoboss (Dec 1, 2015)

Ultrasonic said:


> If you're struggling to eat enough calories then make sure you aren't eating too much protein, since this has more of a satiating effect than fat or carbs. Actually, full fat Greek Yoghurt may be a better bet if you want extra calories? It tasts A LOT nicer than Skyr!


 Don't understand that 1st few lines mate lol so low cals but most coming from protein is bad idea? I do find it hard to eat protein meals like meats fish ect so would be good if can eat more carbs/fats instead!


----------



## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Etoboss said:


> Don't understand that 1st few lines mate lol so low cals but most coming from protein is bad idea?


 Sorry - protein stops you feeling hungry more than eating the same amount of calories from fat or carbs.

Low calories with most coming from protein is definitely a bad idea. Partly actually as this is likely to be bad for natural testosterone levels, which may be relevant to you I think?

What are you trying to achieve at the moment?


----------



## Etoboss (Dec 1, 2015)

Ultrasonic said:


> Sorry - protein stops you feeling hungry more than eating the same amount of calories from fat or carbs.
> 
> Low calories with most coming from protein is definitely a bad idea. Partly actually as this is likely to be bad for natural testosterone levels, which may be relevant to you I think?
> 
> What are you trying to achieve at the moment?


 Wow didn't think about that! What Marco would u say then mate protein around 80s and higher fat/carb?

I just want to strip some fat off while holding onto atleast some muscle. While using low dose clen and low dose hgh.

Just don't want to go to low on protein as higher the protein the less chance I would loose muscle?

i was told to have more fats as saturated fats help with natty test levels?


----------



## Etoboss (Dec 1, 2015)

Ultrasonic said:


> Sorry - protein stops you feeling hungry more than eating the same amount of calories from fat or carbs.
> 
> Low calories with most coming from protein is definitely a bad idea. Partly actually as this is likely to be bad for natural testosterone levels, which may be relevant to you I think?
> 
> What are you trying to achieve at the moment?


 Also forgot to mention mate. I do try eat high calorie meals on weekend. I do find it manageable to eat like a mac d or Pizza Hut like really tasty foods. But that will be my only meal that day. As once eat it can't eat anything after I do this just to give my body a kick kinda thing.

so was thinking wonder if it's worth me adding in like a double cheese burger to my weekday meals just to lift calories up. Or even a protein bar anything small really tht has high calories?


----------



## Etoboss (Dec 1, 2015)

Sorry baggy for using your thread for info. This my last question lol


----------



## Baggy (Jan 7, 2011)

Etoboss said:


> Sorry baggy for using your thread for info. This my last question lol


 not at all mate ask away all good info im learning too!


----------



## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Etoboss said:


> Wow didn't think about that! What Marco would u say then mate protein around 80s and higher fat/carb?
> 
> I just want to strip some fat off while holding onto atleast some muscle. While using low dose clen and low dose hgh.
> 
> ...


 It's impossible for me to meaningfully comment since I know nothing about clen or HGH.

If you were natty I'd be saying that your calories were crazy low for someone your size, and that something like 1.2 g of protein per lb body weight, 20-25% of calories from fat and the rest from carbs would be a reasonable plan. That's for cutting, for bulking you could reduce protein to 0.8 g per lb body weight and increase fat to 25-30%.

As you say saturated fat, and actually mono-unsaturated fat are both important for testosterone levels. So too is the carbohydrate to protein ratio, with in particular eating more protein than carbs having a negative effect.


----------



## Etoboss (Dec 1, 2015)

Ultrasonic said:


> It's impossible for me to meaningfully comment since I know nothing about clen or HGH.
> 
> If you were natty I'd be saying that your calories were crazy low for someone your size, and that something like 1.2 g of protein per lb body weight, 20-25% of calories from fat and the rest from carbs would be a reasonable plan. That's for cutting, for bulking you could reduce protein to 0.8 g per lb body weight and increase fat to 25-30%.
> 
> As you say saturated fat, and actually mono-unsaturated fat are both important for testosterone levels. So too is the carbohydrate to protein ratio, with in particular eating more protein than carbs having a negative effect.


 Ok mate thanks for the info. Going to add a protein snicker bar to my diet to lift them cals while pushing up protein. And will also add in a banana something easy to just eat and not think about it so can just force it down. This will bring my carbs higher than protein.

Havent lost any weight on scales for 2 weeks now That's with 1200-1300 cals no cardio or training (due to back problem) but! Have lost 1" from around my mid section. Don't no why scales haven't moved though. And mirror I can see a big difference. Do you no any reason for this mate? Iam thinking water weight causing scales not to move due to low cals?

@Baggy cheers bud


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Etoboss said:


> Ok mate thanks for the info. Going to add a protein snicker bar to my diet to lift them cals *while pushing up protein*. And will also add in a banana something easy to just eat and not think about it so can just force it down. This will bring my carbs higher than protein.


 My point above was to decrease protein not increase it. What are your current macros out of interest?


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## Etoboss (Dec 1, 2015)

Ultrasonic said:


> My point above was to decrease protein not increase it. What are your current macros out of interest?


 Because you said 1.2lb pro per lb body weight mate ? so thought I need more pro? But I also increased carbs higher as you said ?

So 1st pic is new plan and second pic was what I been on ages now.

View attachment IMG_1037.PNG


View attachment IMG_1038.PNG


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## Etoboss (Dec 1, 2015)

Oh my goal it to cut mate. Not bulk


----------



## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Etoboss said:


> Because you said 1.2lb pro per lb body weight mate ? so thought I need more pro? But I also increased carbs higher as you said ?
> 
> So 1st pic is new plan and second pic was what I been on ages now.


 OK, with you now, I hadn't thought through what 1200 kcal macros might look like!

Please note I really have no idea whether natural recommendations have any relevance to your current situation given the drugs you're taking. They probably don't. You need advice from people who understand these things, not me. It's probably worth starting a thread in the steroid section on this.


----------



## Baggy (Jan 7, 2011)

Ultrasonic said:


> If you want to. For fat loss it will have the same effect of eating a bit less food, but it will be good for your health of you're doing none. Reconsider if you feel it's negatively affecting your gym performance.


 Hello mate, so this week I have stuck to the 1k cals less per day.... hasn't really felt too bad or hungry that much to be honest.

4 sessions done as per that dorian yates workout. I have also added in 10 minutes steep uphill walking at the end of each session - 4 times a week. Machine says its burning "approx." 135cals per session so roughly speaking 540 cals of cv a week.

Weight has stayed pretty level all week. stomach feels/looks the same but will measure tomorrow the stomach.

Weights in the gym I have maintained and even increased on DB shoulder press.

Not expecting much in the measurements tomorrow but will see if its done any good so far!


----------



## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Forget about your measurements. If your weight is pretty stable you want to increase the calorie deficit, by either eating less or doing a lot more cardio. Personally I'd do the former. Maybe try reducing by an extra 300 kcal.


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## Etoboss (Dec 1, 2015)

Baggy so your on 2500cals with 500cal cv work, putting u at 2000 cals then init? So if you dropped cals by another 300 will be putting you at 1700cals that how it works ?

If so That sparky lad was on 1800cals and doing tons of cardio prob like 600 via cardio putting him at as low as 1200!


----------



## Etoboss (Dec 1, 2015)

Sparkey said:


> Err....no.
> 
> The only thing I was on was Test at 300 a week (to keep as much muscle as poss).
> 
> ...


 Mate see how you was on 1800cals how many cals was you burning doing all that cardio when you was doing 40mins 2x per day?

Also. Did you start at 1800 doing 40mins cardio 3x per week then weight stalled? So you upped it to 40mins every day. Then stalled again? so upped it to 2x 40mins per day all while keeping cals at 1800?

if so! Couldn't you of just dropped cals from 1800 to 1600 then when stalls drop it again to 1400 instead of doing the extra cardio?

just curious


----------



## Etoboss (Dec 1, 2015)

Etoboss said:


> Mate see how you was on 1800cals how many cals was you burning doing all that cardio when you was doing 40mins 2x per day?
> 
> Also. Did you start at 1800 doing 40mins cardio 3x per week then weight stalled? So you upped it to 40mins every day. Then stalled again? so upped it to 2x 40mins per day all while keeping cals at 1800?
> 
> ...


 @Sparkey Ar I see you was on test as well! That would of made a huge difference with the fat loss like it did with me.

Start of last year I was taking 1.5ml test e while cutting on around 1600cals. Lost tons of fat looked mint! Abs popping out Was just before my hols.

I then did the the exact same Diet but with no test and the fat loss was like 5-6x slower at the least! So imo that little extra test made a huge difference for some reason?

gutted I am now off gear man it's hard work loosing weight now


----------



## 66983 (May 30, 2016)

I was only on 1800 cal's for the last few weeks, I did drop to 1700 but it did nothing.

The first part of the cut was just calorie reduction with cardio 3 times a week, when the weight stopped I lowered calories, I kept doing this until no mater what I lowered the calories to the weight just wouldn't come off.

When I got to this point I added cardio twice a day and the weight started to shift again.


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## 66983 (May 30, 2016)

Etoboss said:


> @Sparkey Ar I see you was on test as well! That would of made a huge difference with the fat loss like it did with me.
> 
> Start of last year I was taking 1.5ml test e while cutting on around 1600cals. Lost tons of fat looked mint! Abs popping out Was just before my hols.
> 
> ...


 This was last day of cut.

Took me about a week too come around, lethargic as [email protected]@k, crappy back pain (between shoulder blades) I can only assume from losing the weight/fat as it went as soon as I gained weight again.

View attachment 138023


----------



## Etoboss (Dec 1, 2015)

Sparkey said:


> This was last day of cut.
> 
> Took me about a week too come around, lethargic as [email protected]@k, crappy back pain (between shoulder blades) I can only assume from losing the weight/fat as it went as soon as I gained weight again.
> 
> View attachment 138023


 Looking sick mate! Did you take a before pic?

oh! So you started on 3000cals and just kept dropping and dropping every week or so while also upping cardio every couple weeks?

At what cals was you on that you felt the most fat coming off?


----------



## 66983 (May 30, 2016)

Etoboss said:


> Looking sick mate! Did you take a before pic?
> 
> oh! So you started on 3000cals and just kept dropping and dropping every week or so while also upping cardio every couple weeks?
> 
> At what cals was you on that you felt the most fat coming off?


 The first 4 weeks the weight just falls off!

I say weight because its its a mixture of water/fat.

Sorry no before pic, but was flat with no abs.


----------



## Etoboss (Dec 1, 2015)

Sparkey said:


> The first 4 weeks the weight just falls off!
> 
> I say weight because its its a mixture of water/fat.
> 
> Sorry no before pic, but was flat with no abs.


 Ok thanks mate. Sorry was you on 3k cals on them 4 weeks when weight fell off?


----------



## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Etoboss said:


> Baggy so your on 2500cals with 500cal cv work, putting u at 2000 cals then init?


 Baggy said 540 kcal of cardio per week, so only an average of 77 kcal per day. All very approximate numbers obviously - nobody really knows how many calories they use doing cardio plus there is the chance of it leading to being less active later and so the net calorie use being reduced.


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## Baggy (Jan 7, 2011)

yes @Ultrasonic its approx 540 a week of cv.

I am going to drop cals further this week as literally dont look any different when i was 11lbs lighter and dont look any different when i reduce cals. Seems my body shape just dont wanna change, just my middle section :-(

@Sparkey incredible conditioning there mate would absolutely love to get half as good as that!!!


----------



## Etoboss (Dec 1, 2015)

Baggy said:


> yes @Ultrasonic its approx 540 a week of cv.
> 
> I am going to drop cals further this week as literally dont look any different when i was 11lbs lighter and dont look any different when i reduce cals. Seems my body shape just dont wanna change, just my middle section :-(
> 
> @Sparkey incredible conditioning there mate would absolutely love to get half as good as that!!!


 What does it say your maintenance weight is in MyFitnessPal mate?

I just did mine put weight height ect in. Put to maintain weight and no active level. And it's coming out at 2180cals to maintain. I thought it would be way higher! So for me to loose weight 1800 seems ideal. If that's correct @Ultrasonic

so just wondering if you are actually eating more to maintain weight by error and not loose weight? hence why your weight isn't coming off? Just a thought


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## Etoboss (Dec 1, 2015)

Then again my wife is eating 1000cals per day she is mega strict. She 9.5stone. And hasn't lost any weight on scales in 2 weeks. But she looks like she has to me but to her she hasn't!! ..... I don't think we will ever use scales again as they just Mess with your head lol


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## Baggy (Jan 7, 2011)

Etoboss said:


> What does it say your maintenance weight is in MyFitnessPal mate?
> 
> I just did mine put weight height ect in. Put to maintain weight and no active level. And it's coming out at 2180cals to maintain. I thought it would be way higher! So for me to loose weight 1800 seems ideal. If that's correct @Ultrasonic
> 
> so just wondering if you are actually eating more to maintain weight by error and not loose weight? hence why your weight isn't coming off? Just a thought


 Hi using this site: http://www.iifym.com/tdee-calculator/

It says my TDEE is 2390


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## Etoboss (Dec 1, 2015)

Baggy said:


> Hi using this site: http://www.iifym.com/tdee-calculator/
> 
> It says my TDEE is 2390


 Just did mine on that site and it's near exact as MyFitnessPal.

If your tdee is 2390 I would drop cals to 2000 at least?


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## Baggy (Jan 7, 2011)

Ultrasonic said:


> Forget about your measurements. If your weight is pretty stable you want to increase the calorie deficit, by either eating less or doing a lot more cardio. Personally I'd do the former. Maybe try reducing by an extra 300 kcal.


 Redone food plan again, can u let me know what u think of this mate please: This will be alongside weight training 4 x per week and 10 mins cv on those 4 days burning approx. 540 cals over the week.







*cals*

*protein*

*fat*

*carbs*

*Meal 1*

3 large eggs scrambled

234

22

15

0



1 Genius wheat-free seaded toast

104

1.5

3.5

15













*Meal 2*

110g chicken

180.5

34

3.5

0



40ml BBQ chicken sauce

67

0

0.5

15



80g cooked brown rice

106

2

1

22.5



Apple

72

0.5

0

15.5













*Pre-Workout*

15g X-Plode

55

9.5

0

4

*Intra-Workout*

Sizeon

190

7

0

40













*Meal 3*

1 scoop Protein shake 

103

19

2

2



with 100ml milk and 100ml water

50

3.5

2

5



110g chicken

180.5

34

3.5

0



40ml BBQ chicken sauce

67

0

0.5

15



80g cooked brown rice

106

2

1

22.5













*Meal 4*

70g chicken

114

22

2

0













*Meal 5*

120g chicken

197

37

4

0



40ml BBQ chicken sauce

67

0

0.5

15



mixed veg

25

3

0.5

0.5



1/2 pack mashed potato

174

3

5

28





























*2092*

*200*

*44.5*

*200*


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Activity calculators are VERY approximate and can easily be off by over 500 kcal. If someone knows how many calories they are eating and what is happening to their weight this is a much more accurate guide.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Etoboss said:


> I just did mine put weight height ect in. Put to maintain weight and no active level. And it's coming out at 2180cals to maintain. I thought it would be way higher! So for me to loose weight 1800 seems ideal. If that's correct @Ultrasonic


 A true no activity value would be your BMR not TDEE. A low/sedentary activity level would also be too low for someone who regularly weight trains.

As above though I'd pretty much completely ignore approximations like this.


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## Etoboss (Dec 1, 2015)

Ultrasonic said:


> A true no activity value would be your BMR not TDEE. A low/sedentary activity level would also be too low for someone who regularly weight trains.
> 
> As above though I'd pretty much completely ignore approximations like this.


 Ar so if my bmr is 1749 would I need to be eating tht amount to maintain weight if I don't do any exercise at all?

Tdee is 2020 with no training or exercise and bmr is 1749 why are them 2 figures different when both are no exercise.?

man this is confusing lol


----------



## Baggy (Jan 7, 2011)

Ultrasonic said:


> Activity calculators are VERY approoxomate and can easily be off by over 500 kcal. If someone knows how many calories they are eating and what is happening to their weight this is a much more accurate guide.


 Yeah im not even building the cv into my daily/weekly figures

how does that further reduced food plan look bud?


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Etoboss said:


> Ar so if my bmr is 1749 would I need to be eating tht amount to maintain weight if I don't do any exercise at all?


 It's what you'd use if you didn't move at all, let alone exercise. This is why you need to multiply the BMR by an 'activity multiplier' to estimate TDEE (Total Daily Energy Expenditure).

This is all very theoretical though. The best plan for anyone is to track what they normally eat in something like Myfitnesspal, and to then make adjustments from this as a baseline.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Baggy said:


> how does that further reduced food plan look bud?


 It's fine. If you start to feel more hungry then things you could consider are more fibrous vegetables, and replacing your peri-workout suppliments with more whole food.


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## Baggy (Jan 7, 2011)

Ultrasonic said:


> It's fine. If you start to feel more hungry then things you could consider are more fibrous vegetables, and replacing your peri-workout suppliments with more whole food.


 Ok thanks again. Already my wife saying ive lost weight in my face. Always seems to come off face first and belly last


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Baggy said:


> Ok thanks again. Already my wife saying ive lost weight in my face. Always seems to come off face first and belly last


 The vast majority of men hold onto fat on their abdomen more than anywhere else. That's why having visible abs is relatively unusual.


----------



## Baggy (Jan 7, 2011)

Ultrasonic said:


> The vast majority of men hold onto fat on their abdomen more than anywhere else. That's why having visible abs is relatively unusual.


 Very true. I just always feel bloated even when i havent eaten.

I avoid all wheat now and hoped it would of helped. Its like i feel in forever sucking in stomach as if i let it out its like a beach ball. Very wierd and properly annoying!!

Oh well will keep plugging away and hopefully at some point all this effort with gym and food will show something positive lol


----------



## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Baggy said:


> Very true. I just always feel bloated even when i havent eaten.
> 
> I avoid all wheat now and hoped it would of helped. Its like i feel in forever sucking in stomach as if i let it out its like a beach ball. Very wierd and properly annoying!!
> 
> Oh well will keep plugging away and hopefully at some point all this effort with gym and food will show something positive lol


 What's your posture like? Anterior pelvic tilt and just generally not standing up 'straight' will make your abdomen look worse.

If I stand up there is an unconscious level of tension in my abdominal muscles. If I actively relax them then I look rounder.


----------



## Baggy (Jan 7, 2011)

Ultrasonic said:


> What's your picture like? Anterior pelvic tilt and just generally not standing up 'straight' will make your abdomen look worse.
> 
> If I stand up there is an unconscious level of tension in my abdominal muscles. If I actively relax them then I look rounder.


 Im quite tall 6"2 and posture isnt great but im always trying to remember shoulders back and back straight. Definitely makes chest and stomach look better. Im not fat anywhere else just a rounded stomach drives me insane. I am determined though and doing all i can in gym to build some foundations and avoid PEDs


----------



## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Baggy said:


> Im quite tall 6"2 and posture isnt great but im always trying to remember shoulders back and back straight. Definitely makes chest and stomach look better. Im not fat anywhere else just a rounded stomach drives me insane.


 You may want to Google anterior pelvic tilt as well, as if this is an issue then you'd want to look at specifically addressing this.


----------



## Baggy (Jan 7, 2011)

Ok thanks mate


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## Baggy (Jan 7, 2011)

Ultrasonic said:


> The vast majority of men hold onto fat on their abdomen more than anywhere else. That's why having visible abs is relatively unusual.


 Hi mate my gym has started SPIN classes again at lunch. I used to do 1 a week couple years back. Would burn 'approx 700 cals' from 1 session

is it worth me using my day off from weights during the week (other 4 week days i train) to do a spin class to burn off some fat - or is spin too intense/burn away muscle?


----------



## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Baggy said:


> Hi mate my gym has started SPIN classes again at lunch. I used to do 1 a week couple years back. Would burn 'approx 700 cals' from 1 session
> 
> is it worth me using my day off from weights during the week (other 4 week days i train) to do a spin class to burn off some fat - or is spin too intense/burn away muscle?


 Hmmm... I'm not sure to be honest. Where there is some evidence for muscle loss (catabolism) is if cardio is done when fully glycogen depleted. Whether you might reach this point during an hour long spin class whilst already dieting I'm not sure.

A separate question is if you could manage the full hour of course.

I wouldn't do it personally but that doesn't mean it would definitely be a bad idea for you. Sorry I can't be more use!

You can of course just do more cardio without joining any sort of structured 'class'.


----------



## Baggy (Jan 7, 2011)

Ultrasonic said:


> Hmmm... I'm not sure to be honest. Where there is some evidence for muscle loss (catabolism) is if cardio is done when fully glycogen depleted. Whether you might reach this point during an hour long spin class whilst already dieting I'm not sure.
> 
> A separate question is if you could manage the full hour of course.
> 
> ...


 yeah good point... the spin class is just done at my gym so is just as easy as going on gym machines for the day off. I think its 45mins and certainly gets a good sweat on.

perhaps I will just stick to this 2100 cals plus 4 x 10 min uphill walks a week for now and gauge it, thanks


----------



## Etoboss (Dec 1, 2015)

Baggy said:


> yeah good point... the spin class is just done at my gym so is just as easy as going on gym machines for the day off. I think its 45mins and certainly gets a good sweat on.
> 
> perhaps I will just stick to this 2100 cals plus 4 x 10 min uphill walks a week for now and gauge it, thanks


 Any loss this week mate?


----------



## Baggy (Jan 7, 2011)

Etoboss said:


> Any loss this week mate?


 Hi mate around 1lb last week thanks.

what I realised is I wasn't counting my "posh coffee" that I have at work. We have this fancy machine so I grab a capachino and I small sugar every day late morning. However read up today just how bad they are and since then, this week I have opted for the usual instant Nescafé gold with a click rather than a sugar.... should save around 1,200 cals a week right there!!


----------



## Lifesizepenguin (Jul 25, 2016)

Baggy said:


> Ok thanks mate. Should i add in some cv to try and blast this gut at the same time as dropping the cals


 Thats something thats an option, just make sure you arent losing weight too rapidly so thats its unhealthy.


----------



## Etoboss (Dec 1, 2015)

Baggy said:


> Hi mate around 1lb last week thanks.
> 
> what I realised is I wasn't counting my "posh coffee" that I have at work. We have this fancy machine so I grab a capachino and I small sugar every day late morning. However read up today just how bad they are and since then, this week I have opted for the usual instant Nescafé gold with a click rather than a sugar.... should save around 1,200 cals a week right there!!


 Good to hear mate.

The mocha from mac d large has 400calories! I had 1 yesterday thinking would have like 100 tops so when I got home and I checked I jumped straight on the treadmill to get my calories back down would of preferred to have a double cheese burger than a bloody drink


----------



## Baggy (Jan 7, 2011)

Etoboss said:


> Good to hear mate.
> 
> The mocha from mac d large has 400calories! I had 1 yesterday thinking would have like 100 tops so when I got home and I checked I jumped straight on the treadmill to get my calories back down would of preferred to have a double cheese burger than a bloody drink


 Yeah I been so good tracking all my food and even glasses of milk but somehow totally overlooked the nice creamy machine coffee I was having every weekday morning - maybe because it tasted TOO GOOD. Back to instant coffee this week so will see how it all goes at weigh in tomorrow!


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Black coffee is the way to go, and once you're used to it you may actually prefer it. Black coffee doesn't have to mean instant though, and actually you'll likely appreciate better quality coffee more black since you don't have milk hiding the true flavour.


----------



## Baggy (Jan 7, 2011)

Ultrasonic said:


> Black coffee is the way to go, and once you're used to it you may actually prefer it. Black coffee doesn't have to mean instant though, and actually you'll likely appreciate better quality coffee more black since you don't have milk hiding the true flavour.


 I use dowe egberts gold coffee with a sweetener and some milk. big improvement calorie wise over the creamy lattes, don't think im ready to go to full on black coffee just yet!


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Baggy said:


> I use dowe egberts gold coffee with a sweetener and some milk. big improvement calorie wise over the creamy lattes, don't think im ready to go to full on black coffee just yet!


 I genuinely prefer it. I don't like Douwe Egberts though. Nescafe Azera are my favourite instants, although I only buy them when they're about half price.

I have instant at work but have a bean to cup espresso machine at home  .


----------



## Baggy (Jan 7, 2011)

Sounds good mate.... I prefer it already to the creamy lattes!

My chest/shoulder been playing up again last 2 weeks so annoying as I know I am stronger than I can currently lift due to this trapped nerve style pain!

Dropped all weights 10% yesterday for workout and will do same again today and then hopefully back up to proper stats next week.... getting old !


----------



## Baggy (Jan 7, 2011)

Ultrasonic said:


> Black coffee is the way to go, and once you're used to it you may actually prefer it. Black coffee doesn't have to mean instant though, and actually you'll likely appreciate better quality coffee more black since you don't have milk hiding the true flavour.


 Corr well pissed off today. Been 2k cals per day and super strict. Bo treats. No coffee. 10 mins cv aftrr training. 1 spin class.

Sat morning weigh in after a wee and im 0.6lbs UP, on 200lbs 

oh well go again nx week


----------



## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Baggy said:


> Corr well pissed off today. Been 2k cals per day and super strict. Bo treats. No coffee. 10 mins cv aftrr training. 1 spin class.
> 
> Sat morning weigh in after a wee and im 0.6lbs UP, on 200lbs
> 
> oh well go again nx week


 How consistent are you about when you weigh yourself? First thing in the morning after emptying your bladder, before drinking anyhing is probably best. Clothes have weight too of course of you might be varying that.

I really would weigh yourself every day BTW, so you know how much day-to-day variations are a factor.


----------



## Baggy (Jan 7, 2011)

Ultrasonic said:


> How consistent are you about when you weigh yourself? First thing in the morning after emptying your bladder, before drinking anyhing is probably best. Clothes have weight too of course of you might be varying that.
> 
> I really would weigh yourself every day BTW, so you know how much day-to-day variations are a factor.


 Always on a sat morning. Wake up. Go loo. Just pair of shorts on and no top.

Yeah go back to daily just bit gutting as felt hungry all week (plus my main aim is to get bigger so this stage is torture lol)


----------



## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Baggy said:


> Always on a sat morning. Wake up. Go loo. Just pair of shorts on and no top.
> 
> Yeah go back to daily just bit gutting as felt hungry all week (plus my main aim is to get bigger so this stage is torture lol)


 Have to admit I was really expecting you to post something more positive based on your other thread. I do think you probably are losing fat and that other factors are masking this in terms of weight change. Assuming you are only eating what you think you are and there aren't other things like the coffees that you've forgotten about (which is very common BTW).


----------



## Baggy (Jan 7, 2011)

Ultrasonic said:


> Have to admit I was really expecting you to post something more positive based on your other thread. I do think you probably are losing fat and that other factors are masking this in terms of weight change. Assuming you are only eating what you think you are and there aren't other things like the coffees that you've forgotten about (which is very common BTW).


 Yeah the coffee (latte) is one thing i realised and cut out since last week

i was really hoping for a positive result on the scales too. Stomach messurement is the same.

I know its a long road but at 2k cals and some minor cv plus 4 heavy weight sesh's a week id hope to shift some

may have to change uphill walking 10 mins to interval sprints 10mins


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## Etoboss (Dec 1, 2015)

Baggy said:


> Corr well pissed off today. Been 2k cals per day and super strict. Bo treats. No coffee. 10 mins cv aftrr training. 1 spin class.
> 
> Sat morning weigh in after a wee and im 0.6lbs UP, on 200lbs
> 
> oh well go again nx week


 I give up on the scales now mate I am the same weight I have been for 6 weeks now but in them 6 weeks I have lost 2.5inch off my mid section. And pics look massively different. But scales haven't moved!

So I wouldn't worry about scale weight mate imo it just plays with your head just keep doing what your doing.


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## Baggy (Jan 7, 2011)

Etoboss said:


> I give up on the scales now mate I am the same weight I have been for 6 weeks now but in them 6 weeks I have lost 2.5inch off my mid section. And pics look massively different. But scales haven't moved!
> 
> So I wouldn't worry about scale weight mate imo it just plays with your head just keep doing what your doing.


 Cheers mate

weighed in at 200lbs again this morning. Even put a different weight on scales first to ensure the digital scales werent stuck!

yeah mirror and how clothes fit also good indicator but i do put a lot into my scales for going up and down in weight


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## Etoboss (Dec 1, 2015)

Baggy said:


> Cheers mate
> 
> weighed in at 200lbs again this morning. Even put a different weight on scales first to ensure the digital scales werent stuck!
> 
> yeah mirror and how clothes fit also good indicator but i do put a lot into my scales for going up and down in weight


 My last scales was weight watchers ones. Cost like £60. Certain places in my kitchen gave a diff reading. Also if I jump on scales say Iam 12.12 then get off reset jump back on 12.12 get off let it reset on its own jump back on 12.8! If I then get my gf to get on them then I get on straight after her could be like 1-5lb diff again. Did my nut in!! Ordered a even more expensive set like £90 and there most accurate but still can be 1-2lb out by jumping on and off a few times within couple mins.

I then bought this off amazon the tape is mint just wrap it around mid section press the button and take the measurement.

I was using them white clothing measures you no what tailers use but hard to judge when you not sure how tight you was pulling it around mid section the week before. So I do highly recommend this off amazon.

View attachment IMG_1263.PNG


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## Etoboss (Dec 1, 2015)

Have you thought about adding in something like clen mate? Good way to help with the weight loss without needing to drop cals even more and it's anti-catabolic.

I added it to my diet few weeks ago weight loss was defo more! But off everything now as have bloods coming up but defo jumping back on it after bloods.

All I did was take half a tab for 1st few days then 1 full tab for 3 weeks straight. Don't get really bad shakes on that dose (40mcg) and didn't affect my sleep. Good little addition


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Etoboss said:


> My last scales was weight watchers ones. Cost like £60. Certain places in my kitchen gave a diff reading. Also if I jump on scales say Iam 12.12 then get off reset jump back on 12.12 get off let it reset on its own jump back on 12.8! If I then get my gf to get on them then I get on straight after her could be like 1-5lb diff again. Did my nut in!! Ordered a even more expensive set like £90 and there most accurate but still can be 1-2lb out by jumping on and off a few times within couple mins.


 My (cheap) bathroom scales have a memory of sorts. If I just weighed myself normally I'd get exactly the same weight every day unless it had changed by >0.5kg. I spotted this when I first started recording daily weights and I'd see only step changes on the graph. To 'reset' the memory I first weigh myself holding a dumbbell, and then put the weight down to get a proper reading. I suspect the results still aren't very accurate though, as you suggest.


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## Baggy (Jan 7, 2011)

Ultrasonic said:


> My (cheap) bathroom scales have a memory of sorts. If I just weighed myself normally I'd get exactly the same weight every day unless it had changed by >0.5kg. I spotted this when I first started recording daily weights and I'd see only step changes on the graph. To 'reset' the memory I first weigh myself holding a dumbbell, and then put the weight down to get a proper reading. I suspect the results still aren't very accurate though, as you suggest.


 I do the same now. Weigh something totaly different to set a new weight before getting on myself


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## Baggy (Jan 7, 2011)

Etoboss said:


> Have you thought about adding in something like clen mate? Good way to help with the weight loss without needing to drop cals even more and it's anti-catabolic.
> 
> I added it to my diet few weeks ago weight loss was defo more! But off everything now as have bloods coming up but defo jumping back on it after bloods.
> 
> All I did was take half a tab for 1st few days then 1 full tab for 3 weeks straight. Don't get really bad shakes on that dose (40mcg) and didn't affect my sleep. Good little addition


 Thanks for the advice but i tried that stuff once and never, ever again!!

I'll get there, slowly, im sure


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## Baggy (Jan 7, 2011)

Ultrasonic said:


> My (cheap) bathroom scales have a memory of sorts. If I just weighed myself normally I'd get exactly the same weight every day unless it had changed by >0.5kg. I spotted this when I first started recording daily weights and I'd see only step changes on the graph. To 'reset' the memory I first weigh myself holding a dumbbell, and then put the weight down to get a proper reading. I suspect the results still aren't very accurate though, as you suggest.


 Pleased this week. Was down to 199.4lbs couple weeks ago then up to 200 last sat. Weighed every day and was around 199 to 198.

This morning weighed in at 197.4lbs so im pleased. Also nearly 1cm off stomach and feel a bit less bloated.

Ate very strict, cut out the chicken meal 5 on its own a couple of days this week.

Did 1 spin sesh and 3 x 10 minute sprints of 20sec sprint flat out at 19kmph and 1 min rest.


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## Baggy (Jan 7, 2011)

Ive noticed this week i lost nearly 2lbs by tues/wed but each morning since then its been going up around 0.2-0.3lbs a day

will see what it is at tomorrows proper weigh in


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Baggy said:


> Ive noticed this week i lost nearly 2lbs by tues/wed but each morning since then its been going up around 0.2-0.3lbs a day
> 
> will see what it is at tomorrows proper weigh in


 This sort of thing is why I suggested daily weighing for you. Assuming you diet is consistent you can be sure you didn't lose 2lb of fat at the start of the week and then start gaining again. Rather than think of tomorrow's weight as somehow being more important than the rest of the week a better option would be to compare the average for this week to the average to last week.

Whatever you do it sounds like you're losing fat though  .


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## Baggy (Jan 7, 2011)

Thanks mate. Yes definitely feel a bit less bloated and im working hard on the training and eating.

Did find it srange how 2lbs dropped off over a couple days then slowly going back on when routine is similar all week

as u say though end goal is overall fat loss which i hope is working

i cant wait to get back to a lean bulk though to fill out a bit in the good areas!!


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Baggy said:


> Did find it srange how 2lbs dropped off over a couple days then slowly going back on when routine is similar all week


 I suspect you had less food in your bowels by the end of Tuesday...


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## Baggy (Jan 7, 2011)

Was bang on 197.4lbs saturday. Same as previous week

much prefered trying to get bigger this bit is crap doesnt feel like much happening except going in opposite direction to my plan !


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Baggy said:


> Was bang on 197.4lbs saturday. Same as previous week
> 
> much prefered trying to get bigger this bit is crap doesnt feel like much happening except going in opposite direction to my plan !


 What was your average weight over the last week, and how does this compare to your average weight for the week before?


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## Baggy (Jan 7, 2011)

Ultrasonic said:


> What was your average weight over the last week, and how does this compare to your average weight for the week before?


 Has gone down a couple of decimals on average mate. Just feel like im getting smaller but not leaner if that makes sense


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Baggy said:


> Has gone down a couple of decimals on average mate. Just feel like im getting smaller but not leaner if that makes sense


 What are the actual numbers?


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## Baggy (Jan 7, 2011)

197.1 this week against 197.3 last week and i think 198.5 previous week


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Baggy said:


> 197.1 this week against 197.3 last week and i think 198.5 previous week


 I'd be inclined to reduce your daily food intake by 100 kcal.


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## Baggy (Jan 7, 2011)

Ultrasonic said:


> I'd be inclined to reduce your daily food intake by 100 kcal.


 Ok mate will try. Still doing the 3-4 x 10 min interval sprints a week

as i say though i just feel like im getting smaller not leaner u know


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Baggy said:


> Ok mate will try. Still doing the 3-4 x 10 min interval sprints a week
> 
> as i say though i just feel like im getting smaller not leaner u know


 I expect I've already suggested body fat calipers?


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## Baggy (Jan 7, 2011)

Ultrasonic said:


> I expect I've already suggested body fat calipers?


 Yes you mentioned them. Just to gauge the fat itself?

At what stage do u stop cutting down the food if you are not getting lean/cut/defined?

im still doing 4 x weight sesh a week too. Just dont want to end up exactly as i was before i added the 11lbs at the end of last year trying to bulk


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Baggy said:


> Yes you mentioned them. Just to gauge the fat itself?


 I mentioned it now as a way that you'd be able to see you were clearly losing fat, without the confusion of other factors affecting your weight.



> At what stage do u stop cutting down the food if you are not getting lean/cut/defined?


 You will gradually get leaner. Only you can decide if this is what you want. I'm not going through this loop again with you though.


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## Baggy (Jan 7, 2011)

Ultrasonic said:


> I mentioned it now as a way that you'd be able to see you were clearly losing fat, without the confusion of other factors affecting your weight.
> 
> You will gradually get leaner. Only you can decide if this is what you want. I'm not going through this loop again with you though.


 Thanx. Yes i want to get lean but then ultimately i want to get back to growing just without the god-awful belly


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## 72670 (Sep 17, 2016)

Baggy said:


> Thanx. Yes i want to get lean but then ultimately i want to get back to growing just without the god-awful belly


 Save everyone a job and just take @Ultrasonic advice.

Cut down if you think you're a fat bastard and bulk up slowly if you think you're too skinny.

I know people say don't aim for weight per week but looking at research 1-2 lbs seems fine a week to lose and 0.5 a week to gain.

No need to keep bumping the thread


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## Etoboss (Dec 1, 2015)

B3NCH1 said:


> Save everyone a job and just take @Ultrasonic advice.
> 
> Cut down if you think you're a fat bastard and bulk up slowly if you think you're too skinny.
> 
> ...


 It's his thread mate he can bump it and ask all he wants


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## Etoboss (Dec 1, 2015)

Baggy said:


> Thanx. Yes i want to get lean but then ultimately i want to get back to growing just without the god-awful belly


 It's anoying init mate. I did 1200 cals all last week with 30 mins cardio per day and I am still the same weight this week have been same weight for 6 weeks now. Sure it's my weekend refeeds of crap causing the no weight loss.

Gona try next week to eat 1500s and have no cheats on weekend. Just hard when the wife wants to go out for meals all the time lol. But need to try it to see where I am going wrong!

@Ultrasonic if someone was to have really low cals all week 1500 mark. And have say 6000 cals over weekend of just mostly crappy food. Would that knock me out of my deficit?

Like dltbb said me being in a deficit all week at 1500 then add 6000cals over the weekend making the total cals over the 7 days = 13,500 devide that by 7 days is 1900cals per day I was actually having!! Because of my weekend cheats. Hence why i wouldn't loose weight that week

that how it works mate? This must be the only reason I am not loosing weight lol

@Baggy not sure what U do at weekend but maybe over eating knocking you out of deficit?


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Etoboss said:


> @Ultrasonic if someone was to have really low cals all week 1500 mark. And have say 6000 cals over weekend of just mostly crappy food. Would that knock me out of my deficit?
> 
> Like dltbb said me being in a deficit all week at 1500 then add 6000cals over the weekend making the total cals over the 7 days = 13,500 devide that by 7 days is 1900cals per day I was actually having!! Because of my weekend cheats. Hence why i wouldn't loose weight that week
> 
> that how it works mate? This must be the only reason I am not loosing weight lol


 There's no reason to start second guessing @DLTBB by checking with me - he really knows his stuff. But yes - average calories are the major factor here.

You can get into possible positive benefits of periodic higher calorie refeeds (48 hours being a duration being increasingly favoured now) but this is more of a topic for the lower body fat levels achieved during contest prep, or long fat loss phases.

One reason for having calories more evenly spread across the week is that as your low calorie days aren't so extreme this is likely to mean you both feel better and that your gym performance is better. From a natty POV the latter is especially important for muscle retention/growth.


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## Etoboss (Dec 1, 2015)

Ultrasonic said:


> There's no reason to start second guessing @DLTBB by checking with me - he really knows his stuff. But yes - average calories are the major factor here.
> 
> You can get into possible positive benefits of periodic higher calorie refeeds (48 hours being a duration being increasingly favoured now) but this is more of a topic for the lower body fat levels achieved during contest prep, or long fat loss phases.
> 
> One reason for having calories more evenly spread across the week is that as your low calorie days aren't so extreme this is likely to mean you both feel better and that your gym performance is better. From a natty POV the latter is especially important for muscle retention/growth.


 Ok thanks mate. Just trying to find out where I am going wrong been on low cals for 10 weeks now loads of cardio and training defo think my cheats on weekend is the cause of no weight loss.

But! Then again my test levels are massively low! That will also stall my weight loss. Infact after doing some research it's extremely hard to loose weight while having low test levels. Guess I just can't win lol


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## superdrol (Aug 9, 2012)

Etoboss said:


> Ok thanks mate. Just trying to find out where I am going wrong been on low cals for 10 weeks now loads of cardio and training defo think my cheats on weekend is the cause of no weight loss.
> 
> But! Then again my test levels are massively low! That will also stall my weight loss. Infact after doing some research it's extremely hard to loose weight while having low test levels. Guess I just can't win lol


 Why are you having cheats at the weekend? Your just undoing all the hard work through the week... Not being funny but I've always struggled with losing weight and I've dropped best part of 1kg a week eating 1600 cals a day with no training, having a cheat meal is ok, but I class that for example as having a pizza last night which was 900 cals and not pasta with chicken and sauce at 600 cals, my weight is staying put this week with 2400 cals, loads of carbs (330g), low fats (53g) and average protein (150g) after the initial body adaptions to 800 more cals per day than previous weeks ie gaining a pound or 2 initially (although I did that by not having a shake as it was a non training day and traded some protein for some fats and carbs)

your having a cheat weekend by the sounds of it, stop it or give up as your just spinning your wheels buddy, if I can do it and lean up then anyone can... I found intermittent fasting helped, two bigger meals of 700-800 cals and sugar in tea made it a load easier than trying to have 4x 350-400 calorie efforts and skipping breakfast wasn't hard... I'd have first meal at 13.30ish and another at 19.00 give or take, I don't feel hungry in the morning with plenty of tea

as I say I struggled with losing weight/fat in the past and I wasn't even lifting when doing that, protein was low ie 60-80g, plenty of carbs and low fats

i suspect if I ate bigger dinner and tea currently and skipped breakfast even though total cals are the same I'd lose more fat, toying with that idea to see what weight does after a few weeks at 3 meals a day plus pre and intra nutrition or three bigger meals and a shake for extra protein if not training during the day 

ps my test is around 10ish and I'd probably qualify for trt at age 39, so growth hormone levels will be low too


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## Baggy (Jan 7, 2011)

Etoboss said:


> It's anoying init mate. I did 1200 cals all last week with 30 mins cardio per day and I am still the same weight this week have been same weight for 6 weeks now. Sure it's my weekend refeeds of crap causing the no weight loss.
> 
> Gona try next week to eat 1500s and have no cheats on weekend. Just hard when the wife wants to go out for meals all the time lol. But need to try it to see where I am going wrong!
> 
> ...


 Cheers mate have the odd treat at weekends, no cv and no gym but generally dont go mad on the food front mate


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## Baggy (Jan 7, 2011)

@Ultrasonic thanx for the advice recently mate.

Pleased today weighed in at 195.2 - gone down 2.2lbs this week and generally felt bit less bloated in stomach which was nice.

Will carry on with 4 x weights and 4 x 10min hiit sprints for now and approx 1,950 cals.

Readup a bit on intermittant fasting too. Eating from around 1 or 2 until 9 or 10pm. People seemed to get decent results but think i'll continue with this for now


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Baggy said:


> @Ultrasonic thanx for the advice recently mate.
> 
> Pleased today weighed in at 195.2 - gone down 2.2lbs this week and generally felt bit less bloated in stomach which was nice.
> 
> ...


 I'm glad you're making progress, but a bit confused as above you were talking about only a drop of 0.2lb from this week to last week? If you've actually lost 2.2lb then ignore my suggestion to reduce calories - just keep doing what you're doing ?.


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## Etoboss (Dec 1, 2015)

superdrol said:


> Why are you having cheats at the weekend? Your just undoing all the hard work through the week... Not being funny but I've always struggled with losing weight and I've dropped best part of 1kg a week eating 1600 cals a day with no training, having a cheat meal is ok, but I class that for example as having a pizza last night which was 900 cals and not pasta with chicken and sauce at 600 cals, my weight is staying put this week with 2400 cals, loads of carbs (330g), low fats (53g) and average protein (150g) after the initial body adaptions to 800 more cals per day than previous weeks ie gaining a pound or 2 initially (although I did that by not having a shake as it was a non training day and traded some protein for some fats and carbs)
> 
> your having a cheat weekend by the sounds of it, stop it or give up as your just spinning your wheels buddy, if I can do it and lean up then anyone can... I found intermittent fasting helped, two bigger meals of 700-800 cals and sugar in tea made it a load easier than trying to have 4x 350-400 calorie efforts and skipping breakfast wasn't hard... I'd have first meal at 13.30ish and another at 19.00 give or take, I don't feel hungry in the morning with plenty of tea
> 
> ...


 Thanks for the info mate. Had a read up on intermittant fasting defo Gona give that ago next week. Sounds good! Above was just example really I don't pig out on weekend as much as I say. Like all I had yesterday was 2 cups of tea 1 coffee all with milk and sugar and 1 meal. Nando's. That's it. But still over 2k cals.

I could easy do intermittant fasting not eating anything till afternoon as never hungry in morn anyway. My only prob would be not having milk or sugar in my morning tea. Just can't drink it without milk lol but will try. For me this would be what would fit in my routine

wake up 7s. 9s weights then straight onto 30mins cardio. Finish that around 10.30. 1st meal 12ish last meal 5s. Then repeat the next day. Do that for 5 days of the week. Then weekend Just normal diet eating staying in my dificit!!

Glasses of water thoughtout the day

That sound ok?

Is pepsi max ok to have while fasting? And no added sugar cordial juice?


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Intermittent fasting will work the same as eating more at the weekend - it's total calories averaged over the week that will determine fat loss. If this helps someone stick to a lower calorie total then great but otherwise nobody should expect IF to do anything particularly special as far as I'm concerned.

From a natty a POV I suspect IF is sub-optimal from a muscle retention/gaining perspective, due to the lack of protein stimulated increase in muscle protein synthesis during the fasting period. I can't say this is proven fact though. When I have occasional low calorie weeks at the moment I have nothing but whey and black coffee until lunchtime, partly as I combine this with early shifts at work so skipping breakfast means I get more sleep!


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## Etoboss (Dec 1, 2015)

Ultrasonic said:


> Intermittent fasting will work the same as eating more at the weekend - it's total calories averaged over the week that will determine fat loss. If this helps someone stick to a lower calorie total then great but otherwise nobody should expect IF to do anything particularly special as far as I'm concerned.
> 
> From a natty a POV I suspect IF is sub-optimal from a muscle retention/gaining perspective, due to the lack of protein stimulated increase in muscle protein synthesis during the fasting period. I can't say this is proven fact though. When I have occasional low calorie weeks at the moment I have nothing but whey and black coffee until lunchtime, partly as I combine this with early shifts at work so skipping breakfast means I get more sleep!


 I thought that IF puts you in fat burning zone mate? If I just do my normal diet all week low cals i won't be fasted. Aka in fat burning zone.

Both ways will be same total weekly calories but doing IF will / ment to burn more actual fat?


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Etoboss said:


> I thought that IF puts you in fat burning zone mate? If I just do my normal diet all week low cals i won't be fasted. Aka in fat burning zone.
> 
> Both ways will be same total weekly calories but doing IF will / ment to burn more actual fat?


 That may be the claim but I've not seen any evidence to convince me it's true. That doesn't mean there aren't lots of people who have got good results using it but personally I put this down to improved adherence to a lower average calorie intake. This in itself is a reason for many to do it, but it's not for me for the reason I explained above.


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## superdrol (Aug 9, 2012)

I've never I've never seen any evidence that training fasted puts you in a fat burning zone, every study I've ever seen says it makes no odds, the body will burn calories as required and overall cals determines fat loss or gain, not whether you train fasted

as for intermittent fasting - i just used it as it made eating fewer overall calories easier by effectively skipping a meal it doesn't make you burn any cals or anything like that, purely reduces overall calories and makes it easier to eat less cals overall in my case

also I had three or four cups of tea through the morning with sugar, a few calories from that won't ruin anything, as it's not the fast that does anything other than make it easier to reduce overall calories


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## superdrol (Aug 9, 2012)

Etoboss said:


> I thought that IF puts you in fat burning zone mate? If I just do my normal diet all week low cals i won't be fasted. Aka in fat burning zone.
> 
> Both ways will be same total weekly calories but doing IF will / ment to burn more actual fat?


 Nah, just makes it easier to eat less for me  no such thing as a fasted fat burning zone in any white papers or study's, it's mainly bro science


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## Etoboss (Dec 1, 2015)

superdrol said:


> Nah, just makes it easier to eat less for me  no such thing as a fasted fat burning zone in any white papers or study's, it's mainly bro science


 Arr fu*k sake so i am sat here now in bed with a glass of water in my hand instead of my cup of tea for no reason  lol


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## Baggy (Jan 7, 2011)

Ultrasonic said:


> I'm glad you're making progress, but a bit confused as above you were talking about only a drop of 0.2lb from this week to last week? If you've actually lost 2.2lb then ignore my suggestion to reduce calories - just keep doing what you're doing ?.


 Hi mate yes i was pleased. The 0.2lbs was meant in reference to the last week and one before that sorry.

This week just gone was good and on sat morning when i weighed in my stomach actually felt a bit flatter too. Not toned/muscular (yet) but getting a bit flatter which is a start. Its the bit under the belly button thats subborn - the top half of stomach is better.

Will keep on as i am then for now mate in terms of cv and cals. Thanx


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## superdrol (Aug 9, 2012)

Baggy said:


> Hi mate yes i was pleased. The 0.2lbs was meant in reference to the last week and one before that sorry.
> 
> This week just gone was good and on sat morning when i weighed in my stomach actually felt a bit flatter too. Not toned/muscular (yet) but getting a bit flatter which is a start. Its the bit under the belly button thats subborn - the top half of stomach is better.
> 
> Will keep on as i am then for now mate in terms of cv and cals. Thanx


 Don't forget your body decides where to remove fat from, so your back, hips, legs, everywhere, that bit you can see may not move for three months, but your body can still be getting leaner, if that's the biggest fat deposit it'll probably be the hardest to shift, pinch the skin on the back of your hand and you'll get an idea how thick skin is, then pinch everywhere else and you'll get an idea that there is fat everywhere, it maybe that you get rid of most of that before the belly fat, stick at it and try to ignore the head f**k that is dieting


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## Baggy (Jan 7, 2011)

superdrol said:


> Don't forget your body decides where to remove fat from, so your back, hips, legs, everywhere, that bit you can see may not move for three months, but your body can still be getting leaner, if that's the biggest fat deposit it'll probably be the hardest to shift, pinch the skin on the back of your hand and you'll get an idea how thick skin is, then pinch everywhere else and you'll get an idea that there is fat everywhere, it maybe that you get rid of most of that before the belly fat, stick at it and try to ignore the head f**k that is dieting


 Yeah good point. Bound to be the last place to come off is the place most important to me.

I just want to get fairly lean and then workout how to build muscle while staying lean. This bit is no fun


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## Baggy (Jan 7, 2011)

Another 1lb off so far this week since Sat.

The food/training plan is definitely working to lose some fat now which is great.

however I do look in the mirror and think I am looking really thin all over (except the annoying belly bit)..... my initial fear with the diet was I wasn't massive anywhere else before except probably larger than desired belly and lower back. so I am wanting to lean out but overall I want to grow and be lean. At the moment im working hard to lose some lbs but I fear I will end up looking a bit too gaunt !

I am still lifting 4x per week though.


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## JohhnyC (Mar 16, 2015)

Baggy said:


> Another 1lb off so far this week since Sat.
> 
> The food/training plan is definitely working to lose some fat now which is great.
> 
> ...


 I always have this issue, never anywhere else. I do think a good core routine is very useful as although not helping in losing fat, it does have the tendency to squash it all back in, so to speak You can a bit of a turtle shell look though but better than a saggy midrif

Posture does make a difference too


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## Baggy (Jan 7, 2011)

Dropped 1.4lbs this saturday weigh in. Down to193.8lbs

hoping eventually this weight loss will actually resemble some lean/ness ??


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