# Low Dose DBol Cycle - Training Log...



## bogman (Jun 25, 2007)

Hackskii suggested that I put up a training log. I'm currently on a low dose DBol cycle - 10mg per day - which I know is too low in many people's opinions!

A brief background, I'm 6"2, early thirties and 197lb at the start of this cycle. After doing endurance sports (running, cycling & triathlons) for over 10 years, I've been doing weights now for just over three years. I started at 165lb and made a lot of gains initially, but these tapered off a lot over time. I have been very guilty of sticking with the same routine long after I stopped making gains. Although my diet has always been very healthy/clean, I've also been guilty at times of not eating enough to gain mass. I've learned a lot from this site, although have a lot more to learn.

For the last five months or so, I've been doing Big's Dual Factor Routine and am a big fan. I've made good gains on my lifts. However, my mass wasn't really increasing - probably partially due to my food intake admittedly.

I've always been hesitant to start taking AAS. After reading Samurai69's DBol training log (quite a long read!), I decided to try a low dose DBol cycle. I started on 5mg for two weeks and on the advice of others in a seperate thread, increased to 10mg. I'm on my third week of 10mg ED. I plan to continue until the end of the Dual Factor Training Cycle - which will be 1 1/2 to 2 1/2 weeks depending on when I hit my maxes.

I've really upped my intake - 350 to 400g protein a day. I'm also taking plenty of water and Milk Thistle and Liv52. I also do 40 min cardio on my non-weights day. So far I've gained about 13lb. I know a lot of this will be water retention and I have put on a bit of bf (don't have access to professional measurement - but waist has increased a little - under 1/2"). However, I'm still very happy with the gains.

Finally, my goals are probably a lot more modest than many of you. I don't harbour any ambitions of competing or getting to BB size. If I can get to 220 or 225lb (I'm 6"2) with low bf and stay resonably fit, I'll be happy.

I will post up before and after pics once I have finished the cycle - but they'll obviously be far less dramatic than others on here. I also realise I could get shutdown and have PCT ready.

So - there it is - I know a lot of people will be dismissive of this because of the low dosage - but would be interested in people's thoughts and feedback.


----------



## ba baracuss (Apr 26, 2004)

Why such a low dose mate?

From what I understand, you're going to get shutdown anyway, so why not get your money's worth so to speak?

Also why dbol and not test? Needles?


----------



## bogman (Jun 25, 2007)

Well - I was nervous about AAS and the sides. So I was interested in a lower dose if I could still get good gains. While I could still get shutdown, I think (could be wrong) its less likely on a lower dose?

Reason for orals is I travel a bit and don't want to attract probs with needles (although hackskii tells me you can get injectables that last a few weeks?) in customs etc. Also, the missus isn't keen on AAS, so injectables would be a step too far!


----------



## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

I myself am guilty of doing the same thing; it is rough to get yourself into a routine of something different.

Big's duel factor training is rock solid, and most cannot go wrong by following this advice.

13 pound weight gain with just a ½" waist gain is a good measurement&#8230;&#8230;.nice actually.

Not dismissive at all, if what you are doing yields success then you have done well.

Proof is in the pudding&#8230;.

It is good you made a journal, this tracks your progress, and not only that but others can comment on their thoughts on what you may, or may not endorse for an aid in your journey.

Remember you are only dabbling with gear, 10 mg of d-bol is not that much but as long as your endogenous test is firing, and you add exogenous d-bol then values will be high.

It is when exogenous doses of d-bol, hinder endogenous levels of testosterone that low dose d-bol will be couter-productive.

Actually the lowest dose of gear to gain would be the best amount of gear to use.

More is not better, same goes with training.............

Good on you man, for making a journal..............


----------



## bogman (Jun 25, 2007)

Thank - appreciate the feedback. Will update once I get towards the end of the cycle or if there are any probs or questions.


----------



## Greyphantom (Oct 23, 2003)

Personally I would up the dose to 25-30 a day, you will see shut down even at 10 and not reap as many of the benefits (and sides too perhaps) as you would on a higher dose...


----------



## bogman (Jun 25, 2007)

Greyphantom said:


> Personally I would up the dose to 25-30 a day, you will see shut down even at 10 and not reap as many of the benefits (and sides too perhaps) as you would on a higher dose...


My aim is to get gains I'm happy with, while taking the least possible amount of AAS that will give me those gains. While the risks may be low - taking 25 to 30mg would be 2.5 to 3 times as much DBol in my system? That has to mean there is a greater chance of sides? and, I think, shutdown?

I have had virtually no sides so far (a few small spots) - although, I know its quite possible I would still have no sides on 25 or 30mg? And I may have to increase to this level in a future cycle to get the same good gains?


----------



## ba baracuss (Apr 26, 2004)

bogman said:


> My aim is to get gains I'm happy with, while taking the least possible amount of AAS that will give me those gains. While the risks may be low - taking 25 to 30mg would be 2.5 to 3 times as much DBol in my system? That has to mean there is a greater chance of sides? and, I think, shutdown?
> 
> I have had virtually no sides so far (a few small spots) - although, I know its quite possible I would still have no sides on 25 or 30mg? And I may have to increase to this level in a future cycle to get the same good gains?


From what I understand, and you have Hacks guiding you it seems so he will know better than me, in laymans terms, once you introduce exogenous test your body will think it doesn't need to make any of it's own and will stop, pretty much regardless of dose.

That's why you do a PCT - to get your own test production firing quickly to keep the gains you made.

Some people also use HCG on cycle to keep the nuts firing too.

I speak from research not experience, so I'll leave it at that.

Interesting thread though, good luck with it.


----------



## bogman (Jun 25, 2007)

ba baracuss said:


> From what I understand, and you have Hacks guiding you it seems so he will know better than me, in laymans terms, once you introduce exogenous test your body will think it doesn't need to make any of it's own and will stop, pretty much regardless of dose.
> 
> That's why you do a PCT - to get your own test production firing quickly to keep the gains you made.
> 
> ...


Yes - I know shutdown is a risk and I have PCT ready and will take it. As I've said above, I'm not claiming to be anywhere near an expert...... but I do seem to be getting results so far on a low dose.


----------



## ba baracuss (Apr 26, 2004)

bogman said:


> Yes - I know shutdown is a risk and I have PCT ready and will take it. As I've said above, I'm not claiming to be anywhere near an expert...... but I do seem to be getting results so far on a low dose.


 :rockon:


----------



## Greyphantom (Oct 23, 2003)

bogman said:


> My aim is to get gains I'm happy with, while taking the least possible amount of AAS that will give me those gains. While the risks may be low - taking 25 to 30mg would be 2.5 to 3 times as much DBol in my system? That has to mean there is a greater chance of sides? and, I think, shutdown?
> 
> I have had virtually no sides so far (a few small spots) - although, I know its quite possible I would still have no sides on 25 or 30mg? And I may have to increase to this level in a future cycle to get the same good gains?


You might get a slightly greater incidence of sides at the higher level but tbh it shouldnt be that much more. You will shut down even at 10mg... so to maximise the first cycle I would up it to 25-30... I dont think its an exponential thing re the sides ie you should not get 2.5 times the sides with 2.5 times the dose sort of thing. If you have had very little sides now then you should be ok... I get a little water retention and of course the pumps but apart from that (and the growth) nothing... but each to his own and Hacks is a good chap to speak to... just remember pct is a must no matter how low the dose is and tbh I would skip HCG... over rated and not needed on a cycle such as this...


----------



## bogman (Jun 25, 2007)

Greyphantom said:


> You might get a slightly greater incidence of sides at the higher level but tbh it shouldnt be that much more. You will shut down even at 10mg... so to maximise the first cycle I would up it to 25-30... I dont think its an exponential thing re the sides ie you should not get 2.5 times the sides with 2.5 times the dose sort of thing. If you have had very little sides now then you should be ok... I get a little water retention and of course the pumps but apart from that (and the growth) nothing... but each to his own and Hacks is a good chap to speak to... just remember pct is a must no matter how low the dose is and tbh I would skip HCG... over rated and not needed on a cycle such as this...


I know it sounds paranoid and I know AAS are relatively safe, but for me personally, I'd really like to try to take as little as I need to get the results I'm aiming for. AAS is a drug/medication and as with any it seems wise to take as low a dose as you can (to me at least)?

I'm not averse to taking more if I have to in future cycles if either this cycle doesn't prove very successful or if the gains taper at this dosage in future cycles.


----------



## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Well, all will work out in the wash once you come off.

I notice 20mg of d-bol is pretty strong for me, in fact 20mg of d-bol made more gains than 50mg of winstrol.

But, d-bol is not something I would like to take for very long, I feel it gives me problems with yeast.

But I am just speculating.

So with that, low dose is ok, but sides and gains are dose dependant, so is supression.


----------



## bogman (Jun 25, 2007)

I normally do a proper weigh-in on Monday mornings - so an update on last week:

- Weight is: 210lb (gain of 13lb so far - was higher during the week - but on a different scales)

- Waist: 34.75'ish". Just over 1/2 inch bigger than start of course.

- Bicep: 15 1/8". Gain of 3/4" from start of cycle. (I know this is a bit random, but for some reason its the only thing I measured apart from my waist!).

Was in the US last week and diet wasn't ideal. Generally got 350 to 400g protein a day (my target), but made up of more protein drinks than normal.

Training was:

Mon: 40min cardio (rower)

Tue: 40min cardio (elipitical trainer)

Wed: Weights - B Pr, Weighted Chins, OHP + Abs

Thu: 50min moderate run

Fri: Off

Sat: 50min moderate run

Sun: Weights - Deadlift, Row, Abs/Core

As per the earlier post, I'm using Big's Dual Factor Routine and I am towards the end of the Intensity phase. I deadlifted 200kg (3x3) for the first time - which is a nice milestone (for me at least!). Getting very near my max though. Bench press was 90kg (never my strong point) - equal to my previous max, but didn't feel as close to my max as on the deadlift.

Because I'd taken my 10mg at 9am on Sunday and I didn't get to do weights until 1pm, I took a second 10mg at 12pm. Given the low dosage I'm on, I may take 20mg before my two sessions a week for the rest of the cycle to give an extra boost as I push through my previous maxes?

So far I'm pretty pleased, I realise I won't keep it all, but 13lb seems like a reasonable gain so far? Interested in any thoughts & suggestions?


----------



## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

I took 15mg before I trained before and got incredible pumps, almost painfull even.


----------



## ba baracuss (Apr 26, 2004)

bogman said:


> I know it sounds paranoid and I know AAS are relatively safe, but for me personally, I'd really like to try to take as little as I need to get the results I'm aiming for. AAS is a drug/medication and as with any it seems wise to take as low a dose as you can (to me at least)?
> 
> I'm not averse to taking more if I have to in future cycles if either this cycle doesn't prove very successful or if the gains taper at this dosage in future cycles.


Again, this only comes from reading, but androgen receptors are most sensitive in a 'steroid virgin' body, meaning that your first cycle should be your most effective. For that reason, many try to make hay while the sun shines, so to speak.

Of course, you could look at that in another way and decide that as a steroid virgin, you don't need much to help you grow.


----------



## bogman (Jun 25, 2007)

One question - measured my waist again tonight and I'm up about 3/4 inch. Worried that I'm getting too fat! Does that sound like a reasonable bf gain for a 14lb weight gain? or could I be eating too much? Getting concerned I'm putting on too much bf!


----------



## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

bogman said:


> One question - measured my waist again tonight and I'm up about 3/4 inch. Worried that I'm getting too fat! Does that sound like a reasonable bf gain for a 14lb weight gain? or could I be eating too much? Getting concerned I'm putting on too much bf!


I noticed when I lost 5 pounds I lost an inch on my waist during dieting.

4 pounds per inch on a keto diet.

So yah, using the reverse there it looks like you have gained about 10 pounds of muscle and 4 pounds of fat.

But after you lose the water this will change some with both.


----------



## bogman (Jun 25, 2007)

Ok - cool - thanks. I'll keep eating as much as I have been....


----------



## bigmac (Aug 12, 2008)

To be honest a 13lb gain be it a mix of water and muscle with only 3/4" waist line gain is excellent. you may find that your extra size has as much to do with the fact you are heavily compensating on your protein intake pretty much 2gr per lb of bodyweight and by the sounds of things some hard heavy training.

i think to many people concentrate to much on the dream perfect cycle and forget about busting balls in the gym and eating huge

everyone has there own opinions but i have always been a less is more when it comes to AAS.

one of my first cycles over 10yr ago was 4 d boll per day and 1 shot of decca per week. that gave me massive gains in strength and size and i dont recall any shut down. never did PCT either in them days but thats another story.

good luck


----------



## Guest (Aug 14, 2008)

Just a quick one, and only my opinion, but is twice a week enough on the weights? I dont know the in's and out's of your workout but training that little cant be great for hypertrophy?


----------



## bogman (Jun 25, 2007)

bigmac said:


> To be honest a 13lb gain be it a mix of water and muscle with only 3/4" waist line gain is excellent. you may find that your extra size has as much to do with the fact you are heavily compensating on your protein intake pretty much 2gr per lb of bodyweight and by the sounds of things some hard heavy training.


Thanks - it will be interesting to see how much is fat and how much is water when I come off! Hopefully not too much is fat as I don't want to spend too much time cutting. On the other hand, I'm keen to get the most out of this cycle so want to make sure I'm eating plenty - hopefully I have the balance somewhere near correct!


----------



## bogman (Jun 25, 2007)

mikex101 said:


> Just a quick one, and only my opinion, but is twice a week enough on the weights? I dont know the in's and out's of your workout but training that little cant be great for hypertrophy?


I've done two Dual Factor training cycles (both without AAS) and have made good gains. From what I've read, if you're a hard gainer without the genetic gifts some have, this type of routine can be very effective as it allows more recovery time and prevents over-training. Certainly this is what I've found - I've made very good gains on my lifts with each training cycle (I had previously plateau'd on most lifts).

From what I understand you do recover quicker on AAS - so I'm not sure how true this holds when you're using AAS? So perhaps, even as a hard-gainer I could train more times per week? However, I knew that the Dual Factor Routine was working well for me - and also others on AAS have had success with it - so I thought if it ain't broke, don't fix it?

Going forward, I suspect my body will adapt to the Dual Factor training approach and also, some people on here believe higher reps are necessary for body building - so I suspect I'll end up changing at some point in the coming months.


----------



## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

bigmac said:


> To be honest a 13lb gain be it a mix of water and muscle with only 3/4" waist line gain is excellent. you may find that your extra size has as much to do with the fact you are heavily compensating on your protein intake pretty much 2gr per lb of bodyweight and by the sounds of things some hard heavy training.
> 
> i think to many people concentrate to much on the dream perfect cycle and forget about busting balls in the gym and eating huge
> 
> ...


Nice post, I agree with you that more is not better.



mikex101 said:


> Just a quick one, and only my opinion, but is twice a week enough on the weights? I dont know the in's and out's of your workout but training that little cant be great for hypertrophy?


Yes it is, it really depends on the amount of intensity and his volume.

It was explained to me this way by Paul Booth, I will give you two versions.

Training is like digging a hole. Recovery is like filling that hole back up.

The deeper the hole, the longer it will take to fill.

That said, with enough intensity it may take days to recover.

The adaptive response to training is like rubbing sand in your hands, if you do it enough it will get raw. The body's adaptive response given time to heal would be a callous.

If you did the same thing the next day you would short cut the body's adaptive response to building that callous, which would be like short cutting the bodies responce to building muscle.



bogman said:


> I've done two Dual Factor training cycles (both without AAS) and have made good gains. From what I've read, if you're a hard gainer without the genetic gifts some have, this type of routine can be very effective as it allows more recovery time and prevents over-training. Certainly this is what I've found - I've made very good gains on my lifts with each training cycle (I had previously plateau'd on most lifts).
> 
> From what I understand you do recover quicker on AAS - so I'm not sure how true this holds when you're using AAS? So perhaps, even as a hard-gainer I could train more times per week? However, I knew that the Dual Factor Routine was working well for me - and also others on AAS have had success with it - so I thought if it ain't broke, don't fix it?
> 
> Going forward, I suspect my body will adapt to the Dual Factor training approach and also, some people on here believe higher reps are necessary for body building - so I suspect I'll end up changing at some point in the coming months.


You could train more times a week, but if you are getting gains then I would do just what you are doing as it is working.

If you decided to train more, you would have to lower your intensity and probably your volume, as frequency is more.

As you said, if it aint broken then no need to fix.

I do feel though that reps between 8-12 would build more size than lets say 5 x 5.

But you cant go wrong with a good strength base in bodybuilding, I think for keeping and maintaining gains down the road this would be prefrence when starting out.


----------



## bogman (Jun 25, 2007)

Thanks hackskii - excellent advice and feedback.


----------



## Chris4Pez1436114538 (Sep 3, 2007)

This is something tht one of my friends is interested in doing a low dose d-bol cycle i have reffered him to this site and also BOI so he is now doing some research his self (i hope) i liked what OSC said before about this low cycle dbol and how it can be just as good if not better than a higher dose cycle!


----------



## bogman (Jun 25, 2007)

Chris4Pez said:


> This is something tht one of my friends is interested in doing a low dose d-bol cycle i have reffered him to this site and also BOI so he is now doing some research his self (i hope) i liked what OSC said before about this low cycle dbol and how it can be just as good if not better than a higher dose cycle!


I'll keep this thread updated as I progress..... will be interesting to see how it works out! Samurai69's dBol thread is a very good read (although its very long!)


----------



## bogman (Jun 25, 2007)

As I probably only have around a week to go before the end of the cycle (depending on when I hit my maxes), just wanted to finalise my PCT. I have Nolva and Clomid and was planning on following advice that Hackskii gave in a different thread:

- Nolva 20mg for 30 days

- Clomid 100mg for 21 days

This was for a higher dosage of DBol however. So just wanted to confirm this dosage was still warranted (I will have done 2 wks @ 5mg and ~5 wks @ 10mg)? I haven't noticed any significant shrinkage in the ol' boys! But I know I could still have suppression/shutdown.

I've also seen other PCT courses where the dosage starts higher and tapers off?

Given DBol is only in your system for 8 hours, I presume I start PCT the day after my last DBol tablet?


----------



## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Hell, you can start the time of your last tab if you like.

Because d-bol aromitizes, adding in those PCT drugs, you will remove much of the inhabition.

It will be fine to use same day....................


----------



## bogman (Jun 25, 2007)

hackskii said:


> Hell, you can start the time of your last tab if you like.
> 
> Because d-bol aromitizes, adding in those PCT drugs, you will remove much of the inhabition.
> 
> It will be fine to use same day....................


Ok - cool. I'll go with that dosage and start on my last day. Given Clomid & Nolva are liver toxic (from what I've read?), I assume it would be a good idea to keep up the Milk Thistle & Liv52?


----------



## bogman (Jun 25, 2007)

Here are my Before pics (finally)....these were taken about 3 weeks before the start of the cycle. I know I'm a long way short of others on this board! But I was 30lb lighter than this when I started doing weights! (I know my posing is also crap!). My goals are also more modest 

I will post after pics after the cycle and also probably after PCT.

I would be interested in what bf you think I am? The bf weighing scales I use was saying about 12% bf before this cycle - but I know they're often inaccurate? I would guess I'm somewhere between 10 and 15%? but I haven't had it properly managed with a calipers since I was in uni.


----------



## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

You can if you want, it is doubtful that your levels are that bad, unless you drink. Your cycle was very mild and I doubt the liver would be an issue.

Not sure about clomid, but nolva is mild for liver tox issues, I doubt that would be an issue.


----------



## bogman (Jun 25, 2007)

hackskii said:


> You can if you want, it is doubtful that your levels are that bad, unless you drink. Your cycle was very mild and I doubt the liver would be an issue.
> 
> Not sure about clomid, but nolva is mild for liver tox issues, I doubt that would be an issue.


Thanks - I will probably drink in moderation during PCT - so will maybe stay on one of the Liver Protectors.


----------



## bogman (Jun 25, 2007)

Weekly update:

- Weight is: 213b (gain of 16lb so far)

- Waist: 34.75'ish". Same as last week - up 1/2" from start.

- Bicep: 15 1/2". Gain of just over 1 inch!

Diet was pretty good last week. Approx 400g of protein each day. Sleep was bad earlier in week (jetlag & my young son waking during the night!)

Training was:

Mon: Off

Tue: 40 Min cardio (Rower/Treadmill)

Wed: Weights - B Pr, Weighted Chins, OHP, Tri Ext + Abs

Thu: 35:00 Treadmill (incline walk)

Fri: 35:00 Run

Sat: 40:00 Treadmill (incline walk)

Sun: Weights - Deadlift, Row, Pr Curl, Abs/Core

On Fri & Sat I trained in the pm (its normally early am), and on Friday in particular, I got bad back pumps while running! Not the most pleasant! :laugh: Haven't suffered from pumps during cardio when training in the am.

I have also taken 20mg DBol (rather than 10mg) on the days of my weights sessions to help as I hit my maxes.

I deadlifted 210kg yesterday (3 x 3). 20kg over my previous PB - which I'm pleased with. I probably could add a few more kg on if I kept going another week - but this is my 7th week on DBol (albeit the first two weeks were @ 5mg).

So - I'm reasonably pleased with progress so far? I think I will stop DBol at the end of this week (which will be at the same time as my Dual Factor Training cycle). I've kept my diet pretty clean overall, so hopefully I won't lose too much of the gains due to water retention.

I've also took a pic yesterday - have attached a before pic with it too. I think you can see a difference?

Interested in any comments or suggestions?


----------



## megatron (Apr 21, 2004)

Well I can see you got married between pics 

Definately you can see most muscles are a bit fuller - chest, biceps, delts.


----------



## perryhogan (Jul 18, 2008)

good progress mate


----------



## bogman (Jun 25, 2007)

megatron said:


> Well I can see you got married between pics


Unfortunately for my missus, she's been stuck with me for more than a few weeks! :laugh::laugh:

Thanks for the feedback guys. After struggling for a quite a while to gain weight naturally, it comes almost as a relief to see some gains!


----------



## Greyphantom (Oct 23, 2003)

Good to see gains are good... keep the diet good through pct and training consistent and you should avoid too much loss... Personally I would have run the bol at 20 all the way through... good luck with pct...


----------



## bogman (Jun 25, 2007)

Greyphantom said:


> Good to see gains are good... keep the diet good through pct and training consistent and you should avoid too much loss... Personally I would have run the bol at 20 all the way through... good luck with pct...


Thanks for the feedback. I know a lot of people say to run the cycle at higher doses than 10mg - but I wanted to see if I could gain on a lower dose.

Taking 20mg on my two weights days - is still just 90mg a week rather than 140mg (if I were taking 20mg everyday). And I've only done this on the final two weeks.


----------



## fits (Feb 3, 2004)

bogman said:


> Thanks for the feedback. I know a lot of people say to run the cycle at higher doses than 10mg - but I wanted to see if I could gain on a lower dose.
> 
> Taking 20mg on my two weights days - is still just 90mg a week rather than 140mg (if I were taking 20mg everyday). And I've only done this on the final two weeks.


Not been about for a while, good to see someone else trying and doing well with low dosed cycle :thumb:


----------



## craig306 (May 10, 2006)

if you trained at 8pm but took a tab at 8am that day, would you be getting much of an effect off it considering the short life span of dbol?


----------



## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

craig306 said:


> if you trained at 8pm but took a tab at 8am that day, would you be getting much of an effect off it considering the short life span of dbol?


1 tab?...........5mg?

I think he is doing more than 5mg a day....???????


----------



## Greyphantom (Oct 23, 2003)

craig306 said:


> if you trained at 8pm but took a tab at 8am that day, would you be getting much of an effect off it considering the short life span of dbol?


I split my dose so I take half in the morning and then half in the afternoon/evening... if I train that day then its about 30mins to an hour before my training... it might be psychological but I do seem to get a better workout... I think there has been a bit of discussion about whether or not taking bol before a workout helps or not...


----------



## bogman (Jun 25, 2007)

craig306 said:


> if you trained at 8pm but took a tab at 8am that day, would you be getting much of an effect off it considering the short life span of dbol?


I have been doing my weights training in the morning - and taking the DBol about one hour before. From what I've read, I agree - its better to train while the DBol is in your system as it will help with your lifts.

I have done cardio in the evenings a few times and as per my previous post have got back pumps!


----------



## bogman (Jun 25, 2007)

hackskii said:


> 1 tab?...........5mg?
> 
> I think he is doing more than 5mg a day....???????





Greyphantom said:


> I split my dose so I take half in the morning and then half in the afternoon/evening... if I train that day then its about 30mins to an hour before my training... it might be psychological but I do seem to get a better workout... I think there has been a bit of discussion about whether or not taking bol before a workout helps or not...


Yes - have been doing 10mg day. And was taking 20mg on the two days I lift weights during the last two weeks. Although my tabs are 10mg, so have just been taking one in the morning on non-weights days.

Because of the boost Greyphantom mentions, I've taken both 10mg tablets before weights sessions rather than one in the morning and one in the evening.


----------



## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Greyphantom said:


> I split my dose so I take half in the morning and then half in the afternoon/evening... if I train that day then its about 30mins to an hour before my training... it might be psychological but I do seem to get a better workout... I think there has been a bit of discussion about whether or not taking bol before a workout helps or not...


Bump that, I took 15mg one hour before I trained and I got some massive pumps that actually hurt, felt so killer.................Makes sense to me.


----------



## bogman (Jun 25, 2007)

*Weekly update:* Stopped DBol on Thursday and started PCT. Wasn't a great week. I got quite a queasy stomach and felt lethargic - was really struggling for energy. This started on Monday and got worse until I decided to stop the DBol a few days early on Thursday. Weights session on Thursday morning was also mixed - faded pretty quickly.

I think there's probably a fair bit of this due to suppression/shutdown. However, my deadlift on the previous Sunday was also very big for me - so was probably a bit overtrained (back still tired on Thu). In addition, I had a few very bad nights sleep (infant son) and I also suspect I may have had a stomach bug. Finally, I'm a bit stressed due to work right now. So, its hard to say exactly what caused it all!?

I've been feeling better since Friday - am almost back to 100% today.

So - stats today - on fourth day of PCT after 6 1/2 weeks of DBol

:

- *Weight*: 213b (gain of 16lb - was as high as 216 mid-week)

- *Waist*: 34.75'ish". Same as last week - up 1/2" from start.

- *Bicep*: 15". Down 1/2 Inch from last week (big pumps last week?), but up over 1/2" overall

Training was:

Mon: Off

Tue: 40 Min cardio (Treadmill)

Wed:40 Min cardio (Treadmill)

Thu: Weights - B Pr, Weighted Chins, OHP, Tri Ext + Abs

Fri: Off (trying to recover!)

Sat: 1hr walk.

Sun: Weights - Deadlift, Row, Pr Curl, Abs/Core (but starting on lighter weights).

So, although last week wasn't a lot of fun and wasn't quite the end of cycle I would have hoped for, I'm still happy with the results so far. I've reduced my diet back to slightly above my pre-cycle levels and continue to eat pretty healthy and clean - although I'm indulging in a few drinks at weekends!

I will post up pics after PCT has been completed.

Interested in any comments or suggestions?


----------



## fits (Feb 3, 2004)

very interesting thread it will be good to see how much you keep after PCT. and photos will be good to see. :thumb: Not such a good ending to the cycle, i wonder how much of it was over training and how much due to being shut down.....


----------



## craig306 (May 10, 2006)

i always thought it was best to take dbol in morning when natural test levels are high anyways, and so less risk of moobs developing!!!


----------



## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

craig306 said:


> i always thought it was best to take dbol in morning when natural test levels are high anyways, and so less risk of moobs developing!!!


Aromitization issues would be more suitable with either aromitizable compounds and or bellyfat/bodyfat issues.

Timing of d-bol would not matter what so ever on gyno issues.

That would be more a shutdown issue, over anything else, and even that is subject to debate............


----------



## dave13 (Aug 2, 2008)

hey just a quick query, is nolva and clomid really required on your cycle? i ask because its at such a low dose, could you run tribulus as pct instead? what do you guys think?

By the way i think the thread is great and good luck bogman, keep it up!


----------



## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Trib is garbage, I found it to be totally worthless.


----------



## bogman (Jun 25, 2007)

dave1305 said:


> hey just a quick query, is nolva and clomid really required on your cycle? i ask because its at such a low dose, could you run tribulus as pct instead? what do you guys think?


I'm really not an expert, but have been advised to do Clomid/Nolva. Even though I was on a low dose, I do seem to have gotten suppression/shutdown. Probably better for someone like Hackskii to comment?



dave1305 said:


> By the way i think the thread is great and good luck bogman, keep it up!


thanks!


----------



## Martin Faulks (Aug 26, 2008)

How many extra calories are you taking in?


----------



## bogman (Jun 25, 2007)

Martin Faulks said:


> How many extra calories are you taking in?


To be honest, I wasn't counting my calories. What I did during the cycle was count my grammes of protein. I was getting over 400g a day during the cycle. For me personally, it was a lot to eat and I felt quite bloated - particularly in the afternoons. I know from past experience when I ate anywhere close to this diet, I put on significant body fat - but while on cycle - the body fat gains were very low.

Now, I'm back to a diet more similiar to what I was on previously, but am trying to eat a bit more as my body weight has increased. Am eating over 250g protein a day - meals every 2 1/2 to 3 hours.

Once I get through my PCT, I'm going to cut a bit.

My diet is pretty healthy and clean - happy to post up a typical day if you're interested.


----------



## bogman (Jun 25, 2007)

Quick update - my blood pressure has come down since coming off the cycle. It was generally around 130/75 during cycle - which from what I've read isn't a cause for concern - but is a bit higher than normal/healthy ranges.

But over the last few days, its come down to 120/70 - which is bang-on the healthy normal levels.

Interesting that even a low dose cycle caused blood pressure to rise?


----------



## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

D-bol is known to elivate blood pressure mate, many steroids do.

Depending on the person, some more, some not.

How is your libido now?

Morning wood yet?


----------



## bogman (Jun 25, 2007)

hackskii said:


> How is your libido now?
> 
> Morning wood yet?


Morning wood made a welcome return Wed/Thu :laugh: - so just under a week after start of PCT. Libido never went away, but was definitely reduced. I would say its now close to normal - but probably not quite 100% yet.


----------



## craig306 (May 10, 2006)

please post your diet for a typical day, thanks.


----------



## bogman (Jun 25, 2007)

craig306 said:


> please post your diet for a typical day, thanks.


I'm sure this diet is far from perfect, but this was a typical day's diet while I was on the cycle. As per earlier post, I didn't count calories or work out carb/fat intakes (probably would have been a good thing to do), but just tried to get 400g+ protein a day within a reasonably healthy diet.

7:30 - 75g

200g of oats, half with water, half with milk

2 scoops whey protein

10:30 - 55g

Fruit Smoothie

Tin of tuna

Pint of milk

12:30 - 50g

Soup

Chicken wrap

Fruit Smoothie

As I'm usually at my desk, I would graze on the following gradually over the afternoon - 145g

200g Chicken Breast

2 scoops of whey protein

Pint of milk

2 or 3 handfuls of nuts

Sweet pepper & a few carrots (raw)

8pm - 40g

150g chicken or fish with veg

10:30 - 40g

2 whole eggs (raw)

1 scoop Casein Protein with Orange Juice for taste!

Total Protein 405g.

I ate a lot of fruit during the day, typically: 2 bananas, 2 apples, 4 nectarines, pear etc. I took about 6 fish/flaxseed oil tabs during the day as well as Milk Thistle & Liv52. I also drank a lot of water & green tea.

I have to confess I found it difficult to get all of this down me. I normally enjoy my food, but this really took all the enjoyment out of it. As with many others, I suffered my fair share of wind and bloating! Still, though, it seems to have given me results!

My current diet is similiar, but I'm only aiming for 250 to 300g protein. Once I get through PCT, I'm going to try to do a cutting diet to lose some bf.

Interested in any comments!


----------



## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

bogman said:


> Morning wood made a welcome return Wed/Thu :laugh: - so just under a week after start of PCT. Libido never went away, but was definitely reduced. I would say its now close to normal - but probably not quite 100% yet.


Hey, that is good news there.


----------



## bogman (Jun 25, 2007)

*Weekly update:* Now on 12th day of PCT. All going fine - as per earlier post, libido nearly fully back to normal and morning wood now a regular occurence again!

So - stats today:

- *Weight*: 212b (gain of ~15lb)

- *Waist*: 35'ish". Same as last week - up 3/4" from start.

- *Bicep*: Not measured.

Training was:

Mon: Off

Tue: Weights - B Pr, Chins, Biceps curl

Wed: 40 Min cardio (Treadmill)

Thu: 40 Min Cardio (Treadmill)

Fri: Weights - Squats, B Pr, OHP, Tri ext

Sat: Run - 42:00

Sun: Weights - Squat, Row, Biceps Curl

All my weights are 5 x 5 as part of the volume phase of the Dual Factor routine.

Overall, I'm feeling fine. Still feeling a bit sluggish and less fit during cardio - my normal run took a bit of effort, whereas normally its reasonably easy.

eight loss so far has been moderate - still up 14 or 15lb from start of cycle. However, I'm trying to find the right balance in my diet - judging by my waist, I think I might be eating a little bit too much - so will adjust this week.

Interested in any comments or suggestions?


----------



## Cyborg (Aug 28, 2008)

Really enjoyed reading this thread. Thanks


----------



## ba baracuss (Apr 26, 2004)

bogman said:


> I'm sure this diet is far from perfect, but this was a typical day's diet while I was on the cycle. As per earlier post, I didn't count calories or work out carb/fat intakes (probably would have been a good thing to do), but just tried to get 400g+ protein a day within a reasonably healthy diet.
> 
> 7:30 - 75g
> 
> ...


I'm of a similar height and build to you, and that's a mind boggling amount of protein to me.

It's about 2g per pound of bodyweight. I think Hacks is about 16 stone and takes in about 150g per day if memory serves.

It will be interesting to see how you end up after PCT. I'm expecting a lot of fat and water to drop off, but would hope to be wrong.

Interesting thread :thumbup1:


----------



## bogman (Jun 25, 2007)

ba baracuss said:


> I'm of a similar height and build to you, and that's a mind boggling amount of protein to me.
> 
> It's about 2g per pound of bodyweight. I think Hacks is about 16 stone and takes in about 150g per day if memory serves.


It will be interesting to see how you end up after PCT. I'm expecting a lot of fat and water to drop off, but would hope to be wrong.

Interesting thread :thumbup1:


----------



## bogman (Jun 25, 2007)

ba baracuss said:


> I'm of a similar height and build to you, and that's a mind boggling amount of protein to me.
> 
> It's about 2g per pound of bodyweight. I think Hacks is about 16 stone and takes in about 150g per day if memory serves.


It felt like a mind-boggling amount of food some days too! To be honest, if I ate at those levels normally, I'd put on a lot of bf. However, my waist only went up by less than an inch during the DBol Cycle.... so hopefully not too much of it is bf?

Out of curiosity, how much protein do you eat a day?



ba baracuss said:


> It will be interesting to see how you end up after PCT. I'm expecting a lot of fat and water to drop off, but would hope to be wrong.


What do you think would be a good amount of weight to have kept after PCT? The only other DBol Training Log I've been able to find is Samurai69's and he did 2 weeks on/2 weeks off, so I don't have anything to really compare to.


----------



## big (Sep 14, 2004)

ba baracuss said:


> I'm of a similar height and build to you, and that's a mind boggling amount of protein to me.


It seems to be getting him some mind boggling results too 

Even when he was training completely naturally, he was adding significant weight to the bar each and every week. If you look at the increases in his main lifts in the past few months, they've been better than the increases most people at his level get over a year plus. Maybe there is something to this "extremely high protein" malarky


----------



## bogman (Jun 25, 2007)

big said:


> It seems to be getting him some mind boggling results too
> 
> Even when he was training completely naturally, he was adding significant weight to the bar each and every week. If you look at the increases in his main lifts in the past few months, they've been better than the increases most people at his level get over a year plus. Maybe there is something to this "extremely high protein" malarky


Ha ha! :laugh: Actually Big , it was one of your old posts that led me to try eating this much protein (I think it was yours, anyway). The post basically said if you're still not gaining, then try a large amount of protein each day! I did a bit of reading before the cycle so I decided to try it!

I have to confess that although I have made good gains on my lifts over the last 6 months (after about 12 months of not much progress), that I wasn't really gaining muscle mass until I did the DBol cycle. So, not sure if I'm a great example to follow!


----------



## big (Sep 14, 2004)

The time you gained the muscle mass was also the same time you vastly increased your protein, was it not? 

Dbol is good, but its the icing on the cake, especially at that low dose. IMO its your diet that has got you a considerable portion of those size gains.


----------



## Cyborg (Aug 28, 2008)

ba baracuss said:


> I'm of a similar height and build to you, and that's a mind boggling amount of protein to me.
> 
> It's about 2g per pound of bodyweight. I think Hacks is about 16 stone and takes in about 150g per day if memory serves.
> 
> ...


As far as I am aware, to gain muscle the minimum amount of protein is 1.5g per lb of bodyweight. The best is 2g per lb of bodyweight or more when on gear. If Hacks weighs 16stone, this works out to 224lb which means his daily protein intake would be 336-448g of protein per day (1.5-2g per lb).

I think the above is correct anyway, thats what I have always been told.

I weigh just 11st 4lb (158lb). In order for me to gain muscle I take in 2g of protein per lb - 316 but on my current diet, I am probably taking in about 325g of protein per day


----------



## ba baracuss (Apr 26, 2004)

bogman said:


> It felt like a mind-boggling amount of food some days too! To be honest, if I ate at those levels normally, I'd put on a lot of bf. However, my waist only went up by less than an inch during the DBol Cycle.... so hopefully not too much of it is bf?
> 
> Out of curiosity, how much protein do you eat a day?
> 
> What do you think would be a good amount of weight to have kept after PCT? The only other DBol Training Log I've been able to find is Samurai69's and he did 2 weeks on/2 weeks off, so I don't have anything to really compare to.


I probably eat about 150-200g. I struggle to get any more in me to be honest, even using shakes.

I haven't a clue what you should keep - that's why I'm following the thread.



big said:


> It seems to be getting him some mind boggling results too
> 
> Even when he was training completely naturally, he was adding significant weight to the bar each and every week. If you look at the increases in his main lifts in the past few months, they've been better than the increases most people at his level get over a year plus. Maybe there is something to this "extremely high protein" malarky


I'm not saying it's wrong. Just that it's a lot. I could certainly never manage it.



Cyborg said:


> As far as I am aware, to gain muscle the minimum amount of protein is 1.5g per lb of bodyweight. The best is 2g per lb of bodyweight or more when on gear. If Hacks weighs 16stone, this works out to 224lb which means his daily protein intake would be 336-448g of protein per day (1.5-2g per lb).
> 
> I think the above is correct anyway, thats what I have always been told.
> 
> I weigh just 11st 4lb (158lb). In order for me to gain muscle I take in 2g of protein per lb - 316 but on my current diet, I am probably taking in about 325g of protein per day


Hacks intake isn't anywhere near that high though - that is my point.

He's said he takes in about 150g a day in a recent thread on the subject.

TH&S takes in moderate amounts also.

Clearly everyone is different and the 'stuff yourself with protein' line isn't a rule for us all.


----------



## Cyborg (Aug 28, 2008)

ba baracuss said:


> I probably eat about 150-200g. I struggle to get any more in me to be honest, even using shakes.
> 
> I haven't a clue what you should keep - that's why I'm following the thread.
> 
> ...


I wasn't saying you were wrong though mate (sorry if thats how it sounded). This is just what I have seen on most of my research on dieting. I know that if you take in too much protein, you basically p1ss it out anyway but I heard as a general rule of thumb that 1.5g of protein per lb of bodyweight was a minimum for muscular gains. Like you say though, everyone is different


----------



## bogman (Jun 25, 2007)

big said:


> The time you gained the muscle mass was also the same time you vastly increased your protein, was it not?


Yes! :laugh:



big said:


> Dbol is good, but its the icing on the cake, especially at that low dose. IMO its your diet that has got you a considerable portion of those size gains.


The only thing that stops me from entirely agreeing with this is that in the past when I've eaten more, I've made very little muscle gains and mainly bf. However, its possible my body had adapted to my routine (which I'd been doing for a while). Also, I've read elsewhere that for an intermediate - if I can claim to be one - gains of more than 1 or 2lb lean muscle a month are the best you can expect?

...but, I'm certainly not an expert on this....


----------



## bogman (Jun 25, 2007)

ba baracuss said:


> I probably eat about 150-200g. I struggle to get any more in me to be honest, even using shakes.
> 
> I haven't a clue what you should keep - that's why I'm following the thread.


:laugh: We'll see over the next few weeks!



Cyborg said:


> I wasn't saying you were wrong though mate (sorry if thats how it sounded). This is just what I have seen on most of my research on dieting. I know that if you take in too much protein, you basically p1ss it out anyway but I heard as a general rule of thumb that 1.5g of protein per lb of bodyweight was a minimum for muscular gains. Like you say though, everyone is different


It was similiar advice I'd read that led me to eat so much. I had seen that post saying try 400g if you're struggling to gain and also had heard 1g to 2g per lb weight. Although since then, I've also seen 1 to 2g per kg - which is a lot less - so the advice does seem to vary - maybe different things work for different people, or maybe I was p1ssing half of it back out again!

I'm on 250g to 300g a day now - so will see how that goes during PCT. After that, I'm going to start cutting.


----------



## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

BA is right, I am 220 this morning, and take in anwhere between 150 to 180 grams and some times even less.

I think most people get it wrong on the protein issue. It supports lean tissue, that is not counting bodyfat, and everything else.

I see two things.

First, if you prioritise protein as a food source you are telling the body to use some of that for fuel, this is by far the least efficient fuel source you can use.

Another thing, after months of this, the body uses tons of enzymes to break down this protein, kind of resetting the bodies homeostasis.

Too much protein can be hard on the kidneys.

At 220, to get my daily 440 grams @ 2 lbs per bodyweight that would be 12.5 chicken breasts a day, that to me does not make any sense.

I would have a hard time getting 1760 cals from protein throughout the day.

Bill Phillips has done work on protein cycleing with success.


----------



## bogman (Jun 25, 2007)

hackskii said:


> BA is right, I am 220 this morning, and take in anwhere between 150 to 180 grams and some times even less.
> 
> I think most people get it wrong on the protein issue. It supports lean tissue, that is not counting bodyfat, and everything else.
> 
> ...


Interesting - so 250g (I weight 210'ish) should probably be about the max I consume under normal circumstances?

Do you have any links for Bill Phillips stuff? Wagihao (spealling?) posted an interesting article on Protein Cycling - but it didn't seem to be backed up by any studies or evidence. I'd be interested to read more on this.


----------



## Cyborg (Aug 28, 2008)

I don't prioritise my protein over carbs at all (well maybe a little as I have more grams of protein than I do carbs). At the moment I am following Geo's Clean bulking diet and I am just about managing to eat it all at the moment


----------



## big (Sep 14, 2004)

Honestly, it depends on your goals.

Look at anyone who has got seriously big and/or strong. They almost all take in loads of protein.

Just look at this site alone at the top guys who compete.... Mr. Llewellyn, Pscarb, Tom Blackman, DB (sorry if I've missed anyone out)... look at their journals, they are all taking in well in excess of 300g of protein most days (normally around the 350g mark I think), and I think DB is around the 400g mark when he put his diet up. They all compete at around the 90(ish)kg mark if I remember correctly? I'm sure they'll correct me if I'm wrong... but I don't think I'm a million miles away with my guesses.

Their high intake of protein and large muscle mass isn't a coincidence. If they ate at 0.8g per lb, they'd be taking in around 160g of protein a day. Do you think they'd be as big then? lol

By all means try low protein and see what happens... but most trainees in the gym are small because they aren't taking in enough calories and protein. Not because 150g protein is plenty but they didn't do a triple drop set on their last set of cable flyes 

Just IMO... but look at any journals of the guys who are doing really well and constantly progresing on any forum/site. Sure, there may be one or two genetic exceptions, but for every huge guy progressing like that taking in under 200g of protein a day, there will be 100 guys taking in 300g+.

Sure, it'd be awesome if we could all pack on muscle at a reasonable rate by nibbling at beans and tofu... but it isn't going to happen.


----------



## Tall (Aug 14, 2007)

big said:


> Sure, it'd be awesome if we could all pack on muscle at a reasonable rate by nibbling at beans and tofu... but it isn't going to happen.


You've had to have the genetics of a gorilla / rhino to manage that one


----------



## bogman (Jun 25, 2007)

TH&S and Big - thanks for the advice and info. I'll stick with around 300g a day during PCT. In the meantime, I'm going to do a bit more reading on cutting, so I have it planned for after PCT.


----------



## spoiledali (Sep 3, 2008)

hi,

It will be interesting to see how much is fat and how much is water when I come off! Hopefully not too much is fat as I don't want to spend too much time cutting. On the other hand, I'm keen to get the most out of this cycle so want to make sure I'm eating plenty - hopefully I have the balance somewhere near correct!

I think to many people concentrate to much on the dream perfect cycle and forget about busting balls in the gym and eating huge

I don't prioritise my protein over carbs at all (well maybe a little as I have more grams of protein than I do carbs). At the moment I am following Geo's Clean bulking diet and I am just about managing to eat it all at the moment

tnkx.


----------



## ba baracuss (Apr 26, 2004)

big said:


> Honestly, it depends on your goals.
> 
> Look at anyone who has got seriously big and/or strong. They almost all take in loads of protein.
> 
> ...


The fact that it works for those guys doesn't necessarily mean that taking in less wouldn't work though, does it?

Taking in huge amounts for years is something their bodies are clearly used to - their enzymes etc will be well accustomed to it.

If they had used smaller amounts their bodies may well have become accustomed to that - as Hacks' seems to have.

Protein doesn't stay in the body long - it's excreted as urea, so I see it as something which needs to be steadily streamed through the body in regular, small doses.

I really can't see how anyone's body *needs* 400g of protein a day for maintenance/growth. Sure, those guys do well in doing so, but they could have quite possibly got there at lower doses.

And of course, they all juice, meaning more efficient protein uptake - it's a different story for naturals such as myself.

The strain on the kidneys worries me also.


----------



## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

All right, let's move on to new business. A couple times, in previous articles, Torbjorn Akerfeldt has mentioned that the "micro-cycling" of macronutrients, specifically protein, may offer another way to "trick the body" into gaining new muscle size. To be honest, before Torbjorn introduced this theory, I had never heard, nor even thought, of cycling protein, but after he explained this theory to me and showed me the scientific rationale behind it, I'm beginning to believe there might be something to this new concept as well. In a recent interview with Torbjorn, I asked him about this theory. Here's how it went...

*Bill Phillips*: Let's talk about something you mentioned in our last interview-cycling protein intake. How does this work, and why would someone want to do this? I was under the impression that you had to consume a high-protein diet every day to gain muscle. It sounds like a wild theory to be honest.

*Torbjorn Akerfeldt*: I realize that by introducing the concept of protein cycling, I might cause some of your readers to say, "That Swedish guy with the unpronounceable name has finally gone nuts..." I say this because I've found that bodybuilders hold three things sacred: heavy squats, steroids-or creatine for drug-free bodybuilders-and a high protein intake. As long as you don't touch these dogmas, many bodybuilders will listen and be prepared to do some of the most outrageous, unscientific, and often dangerous things, in an effort to become bigger and stronger. However, I have to challenge one of these fundamentals: namely, the high protein intake. I know some of your readers, after reviewing even this much of the text, will flip to the next article. I warn them that this is a big mistake. By "hearing me out," I promise they'll learn something new about protein metabolism and muscle growth that may change the way they view protein intake forever, allowing them to reach a new standard of muscle growth and fat loss.

*BP*: Should we cycle protein like calories-going two weeks on a high-protein diet and two weeks on a low-protein diet?

*TA*: No. I need to emphasize that my theory involves reducing protein intake only for a few days at a time. In order to understand why this is important-why it could allow bodybuilders to get better results from their workouts-I need to explain some of the basics about protein and its biochemistry, so please bear with me. I believe that if more bodybuilders understood the contemporary science behind the metabolic processes of muscle growth and fat loss, they would be able to spot a flawed theory before they had put a lot of their blood, sweat, and tears-not to mention money-into it. As I've explained in my previous interviews, it is important to understand that we all react and adapt to dietary changes; our bodies are constantly trying to outsmart us, you might say. I see this not only in the gym but also when reviewing statistics from scientific studies on nutrition. The body is amazing.

*BP*: What is it about protein metabolism that I, and other bodybuilders, really need to know?

TA: Let me start with the basics-as you know, protein is made up of "building blocks" called amino acids, which basically consist of one, two, or three nitrogen atoms bound together with a carbon skeleton. Amino acids can be attached to each other by peptide bonds, thus forming long chains of interconnected amino acids. These chains or peptides are named after the number of amino acids they contain; hence, they are called dipeptides, tripeptides, etc. If there are more than 10 amino acids present, the term polypeptide is used, and if the number exceeds 50, they are normally referred to simply as "proteins." These proteins have different properties, depending on the sequence of the amino acids which form them. Actually, more than 100 amino acids exist in nature, but only 20 of them can be used to build proteins in the human body.

Examples of amino acids which can't be part of the protein structure include gamma-aminobutyric acid [GABA] and L-dopa, both of which are known to be used and misused by bodybuilders. The body also has the ability to change the structure of certain amino acids that have already been incorporated into proteins, thus forming new amino acids such as hydroxyproline [which exists in connective tissue] and 3-methylhistidine [which exists in muscle].

Furthermore, the body can make non-protein amino acids, such as ornithine, and the nonessential, or dispensable, amino acids, which are necessary to synthesize proteins. The reason the body has developed this dynamic ability to create new amino acids is to fulfill the precise needs of the body despite protein intakes that vary widely in quality and quantity. However, the body cannot manufacture all amino acids-certain ones just cannot be synthesized. These are called essential, or indispensable, amino acids. They must consequently be provided in the foods you eat.

*BP*: I follow you-we covered these things in my Sports Supplement Review®, and I agree this basic science of protein should be understood by bodybuilders. What do you think is important to know about protein metabolism?

*TA*: Protein metabolism is very complex and is an area of science we're only beginning to really understand. However, there are some things which are relevant to my theory which bodybuilders should have a handle on. Basically, what you need to know is that all the amino acids we ingest in the form of proteins are broken down to free amino acids and used, for example, to build new proteins according to the metabolic state that exists at that moment in the body. What the body does with the various proteins once it disassembles them into these free amino acids depends on your previous food intake, your physical activity, your hormonal status, and a number of other things. These new proteins, depending on the type [e.g., muscle, gut, and liver proteins], have different rates of turnover. Since this area is quite complex, I have created an overview chart [below] that will hopefully offer some assistance. I think this chart includes some important information, especially for Muscle Media readers with a scientific background who are eager to learn more about protein metabolism. The numbers were chosen with a 200-lb bodybuilder in mind.

http://musclemedia.com/training/abcde/images/abc4_diag1.gif

The free amino acid pool is mainly located inside cells and constitutes only about one percent of the body's total amino acid content in the form of proteins. Since the free amino acid pool is smaller than the daily incoming amount of amino acids from food, the consequence of one day of protein deprivation could be disastrous. Luckily, the body has solved this problem by having a very high rate of protein turnover [more than one pound daily], and by keeping a pool of labile [this means they can easily change] proteins which are readily available to be broken down without interrupting normal body functions.9,14,17 By having this high rate of protein turnover, the body can easily change the distribution of proteins, and this is of prime importance. During infection [a form of metabolic stress], for example, when the body needs to synthesize antibodies [which are proteins], the building blocks [amino acids] will be taken mostly from labile proteins, but unfortunately, during longer periods of sickness, starvation, or trauma, muscle protein will also be broken down to provide raw material for new proteins.

By studying the chart, you can see how I came to the conclusion that there are at least four areas we as bodybuilders must target: 1) decrease amino acid breakdown, 2) increase protein synthesis, 3) decrease protein breakdown, and 4) increase the proportion of newly synthesized muscle proteins. All the details about how to accomplish this are too complicated to get into in this article. However, in regard to protein intake, I can mention that degradation, or breakdown, is temporarily suppressed by an increased protein intake,8,16 and synthesis is promoted at intakes above 1.4 grams of protein per kilogram of bodyweight per day [g/kgBW/d].16,21 For a 200-lb lifter, that's about 130 grams of protein per day.

The size of the free amino acid pool is remarkably constant,24 and this, my friends, is bad news for bodybuilders since it has been shown that the amount of free amino acids both inside muscle cells and in the blood6 governs protein synthesis. This pool can be controlled very closely by a "safety valve" called "oxidation."4 By this process, the carbon skeletons from the excess amino acids are used to create energy. This can happen directly or via the synthesis of glucose [gluconeogenesis] or fat.

Another "safety valve" is the up-regulation of the enzymes in the urea cycle. This metabolic cycle takes place in the liver, and its purpose is to eliminate nitrogen [from protein] by converting it into a water-soluble form called urea, which can be excreted in the urine. The urea cycle and other liver enzymes also break down excess amino acids directly.

There are also other "safety valves" or systems the body uses to maintain a constant amino acid and protein balance, but the important thing to remember is that there are a number of systems that are altered for better or worse when you follow a high-protein diet. The consequence of this is that if you habitually consume a high-protein diet, you are setting off multiple "adaptations" and alterations in how your body metabolizes protein-it influences your protein requirement.18,19 In other words, the more protein you ingest, the more you need! This may not sound so bad for a protein lover, but think twice and you will see its downside. Eventually, you will need such a high protein intake in order to generate the positive effects that health problems could occur.

Another consideration is a large amount of protein supplements could be necessary to meet the extraordinary protein requirement you've built up.

And, perhaps most importantly, if you develop this need for a high amount of protein and you miss a meal or during your long overnight fast [the time you don't eat while you're sleeping], your body is quickly thrown into a protein catabolic state. You literally have to eat protein every few hours in order to not go "catabolic."

As we've discussed in previous articles, your body has the ability to adapt to almost anything you subject it to. For example, those individuals [probably not Muscle Media readers] who consume alcohol habitually experience an up-regulation in certain enzymes that metabolize alcohol; thus, the more frequently they drink, the more they need to consume to get intoxicated [drunk]. Follow me?

*BP*: I think so. What you're saying is if I consume 400 grams of protein every day, initially this might cause an anabolic effect, but eventually, if I keep doing this, I'll need 400 grams of protein a day just to maintain my current level of muscle mass. Is this what you're saying?

*TA*: Exactly. The body adapts by up-regulating enzymes and systems that break down amino acids.

*BP*: So how much protein should we consume?

*TA*: At first glance, a diet dominated by protein seems to be the logical choice for every bodybuilder. After all, there are reasons this macronutrient is called protein-it's Greek for "of prime importance."

In addition to carbon, hydrogen, and oxygen, protein contains nitrogen and some sulfur, which make it different from fats and carbohydrates.

Protein can be used to create carbohydrates, and with some difficulties, it can be converted to fat, but carbohydrates and fats can never be turned into proteins unless nitrogen is present, and as we've already discussed, nitrogen comes only from protein.

Strangely enough, the current United States Recommended Daily Allowance (RDA) does not include an additional amount of protein for those who regularly engage in physical exercise.15 Several recent studies, however, indicate that dietary protein intake in excess of the current RDA [.8 g/kgBW/d-that's only 72 grams a day for a 200-lb bodybuilder] is likely needed for optimal muscle growth. For example, in one study, heavy resistance-training young adult men consuming 3.3 g/kgBW/d [which is about 300 grams per day for a 200-lb guy] versus 1.3 [about 120 grams a day] gained 2.2 more pounds of bodyweight in just 14 days4!

Another study found protein synthesis in strength-training subjects went up when protein intake was increased from .9 to 2.4 g/kgBW/d.21 These studies concluded that 2.4 and 3.3 g/kgBW/d, respectively, were in excess of the amount needed for optimal muscle growth. For example, in the study using 3.3 g/kgBW/d, the "safety valve," called oxidation, increased by 159%.4 These and other researchers now think that the "optimal" protein intake for strength-training athletes might be 1.8 g/kgBW/d11,21 [about 160 grams of protein for a 200-lb lifter].

I strongly disagree with this theory. I do not believe the subjects who put on an additional 2.2 lbs of mass in 14 days by increasing their protein intake to 3.3 g/kgBW/d4 would have been equally successful if they had increased it only to 1.8 g/kgBW/d.

*BP*: So why would the researchers only recommend 1.8 g/kgBW/d?

*TA*: I think the answer lies in how we would define the word "optimal." For bodybuilders, it means maximum muscle growth, while for scientists, it means, more or less, the level at which "safety valves" are induced disproportionately to increased protein intake.25 This discrepancy can be explained within the anabolic drive theory, which was developed by a scientist named D.J. Millward, who has developed other interesting theories on muscle growth which we've discussed in earlier parts of this article series.

Dr. Millward believes dietary protein is a key active nutritional regulator. In short, his anabolic drive theory states that "excessive dietary indispensable [essential] amino acids, prior to their oxidation, exert an important transient regulatory influence on growth, development, and protein turnover, through their activation of various hormonal and metabolic responses, which collectively constitute the anabolic drive."12

The response he's referring to consists of an increase in anabolic hormones, including thyroid hormone [T3] which, in small amounts, is anabolic in muscle tissue. The metabolic response is a direct effect of enzymes stimulating protein synthesis and inhibiting protein degradation.

Notice that Millward mentioned this is a transient phenomenon, giving evidence that the anabolic drive theory is very much in line with my protein cycling theory.

Basically, what it all amounts to is that there are pros and cons associated with a high protein intake-the way to get the positive without the negative is to cycle protein intake.

*BP*: How did you come up with your protein cycling theory?

*TA*: My interest in protein cycling originated about a year ago when I realized that if you change from a diet with normal protein intake to one with a high intake, after about a week, you will have less amino acids in your blood than before upping your protein intake.13 The reason for this is not only enzymatic adaptation but also hormonal changes. A high protein intake stimulates the release of a hormone called glucagon, which is a hormone that opposes the effects of the anabolic hormone insulin.

With increased protein intake, the urea cycle runs at a faster pace to excrete the nitrogen from the excess amino acids. Glucagon is also "consuming" amino acids, but in this case, to create glucose [gluconeogenesis] by up-regulating gluconeogenic enzymes. Unfortunately, these two systems overcompensate and thus decrease the amount of available amino acids in the bloodstream. However, it seems that the transport of amino acids into muscle is initially improved.

After examining this issue, I went on to explore what happens during a period of low protein feeding. What I discovered is there are several mechanisms that preserve muscle proteins in favor of, for example, liver proteins [which include more labile proteins], during this condition. First of all, muscle proteins have a longer life span than liver proteins, so initially [during the first few days of protein deprivation], liver proteins, rather than muscle proteins, are lost, and muscle mass is remarkably well preserved.7 Furthermore, the urea-cycle enzymes are down-regulated [interestingly, the same thing happens during overfeeding3]; thus, less urea is formed, and this urea can, under these conditions, even be recycled by something called the urea-salvage pathway to create amino acids again.10 This also takes place during training and recovery.2 Even more interesting are the events within the muscle cell. During the first day of a low protein intake, protein synthesis is decreased while the degradation is constant. After three days, however, the degradation is significantly lowered.23 Thus, in essence, a three-day, low-protein diet actually stimulates anti-proteolytic mechanisms, or "anti-catabolism" as it is often referred to in the muscle magazines.

Now comes the very interesting part-when you switch back to a high-protein diet, you create the perfect environment for super-compensation of muscle proteins [GROWTH!] to take place. Here's why:

The amino acids [nitrogen] will stay in the body since urea-cycle enzymes are still down-regulated, and the urea-salvage pathway is still operating.

The nitrogen balance in muscle is dramatically elevated because the synthesis is rapidly increased due to improved availability of amino acids20 and because it takes two days for protein degradation to increase23 back to your baseline value, which is still lower than average due to the high protein intake.8,16

These very important observations are the basis for protein cycling within the framework of my Anabolic Burst Cycling System. By doing these micro-cycles, especially during the low-calorie phase, you can experience muscle growth, even though you are on a restricted-calorie diet-you can build muscle and burn fat at the same time! This is what "nutrient repartitioning" is all about-you drive energy stores from fat to fuel muscle tissue. It is a "rob Peter to pay Paul" phenomenon. Unfortunately, this "primed condition" exists for only about two or three days.

http://musclemedia.com/training/abcde/images/abc4_diag2.gif

*BP*: I see-what you're saying is that during the low-calorie phase of your Anabolic Burst Cycling Program, we should consume a high-protein diet for three days, then a low-protein diet for three days, then a high-protein diet for three days. How much protein are we talking about during each phase?

*TA*: In this case, I consider a low-protein intake to be equivalent to slightly above the RDA or 1.1 g/kgBW/d [for a 200-lb bodybuilder, that's roughly 100 grams of protein per day]. There really is no true protein malnutrition, as long as you eat enough carbohydrates to keep the "safety valves" closed [carbohydrates inhibit gluconeogenesis and the urea cycle]. Still, 1.1 g/kgBW/d is a small amount compared to what most bodybuilders ingest daily. I know some bodybuilders who regularly consume upwards of 400 or 500 grams of protein a day-they are definitely "protein dependent." Nevertheless, even my low protein intake is enough to maintain muscle mass in the steroid-free bodybuilder.22

If you take protein cycling to its extreme, you could go on an even lower protein intake-down to as low as 60 grams per day and instead consume high doses of glutamine and HMB. In this situation, as well as during overtraining, glutamine and HMB may be useful as they inhibit protein breakdown. This low intake of protein would prime the enzymes even more for the high-protein days.

I believe that, optimally, protein cycling should prime the enzymes, assuming we're talking about a 200-lb athlete with a single-digit bodyfat percentage who is fluctuating his protein intake between 100 grams on his low-protein days and around 250-300 grams on his high-protein days.

*BP*: What type of protein do you recommend? Should it be chicken, fish, milk protein, or whey protein?

*TA*: I believe during the low-protein days, the importance of protein quality is amplified. Whenever you drop protein intake, the amount of glutathione, which is the body's most important antioxidant, drops as well. This may be mitigated by supplementing the diet with ion-exchanged whey protein.1 Whey protein may also increase the amount of IGF-1, an important anti-catabolic hormone. And, whey proteins have the best amino acid profile, so they minimize the risk of deficiency in individual amino acids. Remember, the lack of one single type of amino acid is sufficient to hamper protein synthesis.

*BP*: Should a bodybuilder cycle protein during the high-calorie phase?

*TA*: I don't believe so. My impression is we shouldn't cycle protein intake during the overfeeding phase because we are trying to evoke a burst of anabolic hormones associated with overfeeding.5 During the anabolic/bulking phase, there must be a steady oversupply of all macronutrients. A two-week period of medium to high protein intake [approximately 2.5 g/kgBW/d-about 225 grams a day for a 200-lb bodybuilder] will not drive amino acid catabolic enzymes wild. I do not recommend consuming huge-that is, over 300 grams a day-amounts of protein over an extended period of time.

*BP*: There has been some debate in the scientific community about whether high-protein diets are dangerous. What do you think?

*TA*: I don't recommend a very high-protein diet nor protein cycling to people with insufficient kidney function [with serum creatinine over 150 micromol/l] since the high-protein days could throw such a person into a "uremic state," which is not only muscle catabolic but also very unhealthy. For people with critical liver dysfunction, a high-protein diet could also become a problem by inducing encephalopathy [brain damage].

For healthy people, however, protein cycling is probably healthier than chronic high protein intakes. I believe some bodybuilders who are consuming these outrageously high protein intakes-over 400 grams per day-underestimate the possible long-term side effects of such nutritional practices. With these super-high-protein diets, the excess protein is partly converted to toxic metabolites, such as homocysteine and ammonia. [You know you're consuming way too much protein when your gym clothes start to stink like ammonia-even after washing them!]

Most scientists I work with believe nowadays a moderately high-protein diet, especially for people who pay close attention to their fluid balance [increased water loss almost always accompanies a high-protein diet] are not at an increased risk for kidney or liver damage. The problem with many bodybuilders is that it's hard to determine if their abnormal liver and kidney parameters are a result of present or prior use of anabolic steroids or if it's due to dietary factors.

Bodybuilders who consume a super-high-protein diet and are convinced they need this much protein probably do! By consuming so much protein day in and day out, their bodies become so efficient at breaking down amino acids that they have turned their metabolic systems into "protein monsters" that devour amino acids before they can be used to build muscle tissue.

*BP*:If people are on high-protein diets, how can they get their systems back into balance?

*TA*: I would recommend that anyone who is on a very high-protein diet start cycling protein intake and gradually lower it. Let's say a 200-lb bodybuilder is consuming 400 grams of protein a day. What I would recommend is that for 3 days, he should cut down to 200 grams of protein a day, then go up to 350 grams a day for 3 days, then come down to about 150 grams a day, up to 250 grams a day for 3 days, and so on.

*BP*: Who should try protein cycling, and why?

*TA*: If a person's goal is to lose fat while gaining muscle at the same time, protein cycling is definitely something he/she should experiment with. In short, here are the basics which can set you up for your first protein cycle "test drive": the ideal period to start this is right after an overfeeding cycle in my Anabolic Burst Cycling System. You would start out with 3 days of high protein intake, which in this case is around 3.3 g/kgBW/d, which for a 200-lb athlete would be around 300 grams of protein per day. To this, additional amounts of carbohydrates and fats should be added to reach the desired total energy intake. For example, on your low-calorie/cutting days, I understand you're consuming around 1,800 calories. Now, if you want to follow my protein cycling program, you can consume 2,100 calories instead. Good news, huh? This has to do with protein's thermogenesis and thyroid-stimulating effect during hypocaloric conditions, as well as the fact that you also automatically cycle the intake of carbohydrates which, in this case, have a "sympathicomimetic effect" [which means they stimulate the nervous system]. For now, Bill, just trust me on this. After consuming 300 grams of protein, you'd have only about 900 calories left to consume. I would recommend around 125 grams of carbohydrates and roughly 45 grams of fat. Of course, people with a higher energy intake on their dieting days would consume more carbohydrates and fat.

After 3 days, you would switch over to 1.1 g/kgBW/d, which would be around 100 grams of protein per day or less. Be sure to use HMB and glutamine during the low-protein days to help minimize protein breakdown while you simultaneously attempt to "up-regulate" enzymes that will help us "super-compensate" protein storage [gain muscle size!] when we start our next high-protein micro-cycle.

I recommend you don't perform any weight-training exercise during the first of the low-protein days and no aerobics on the second morning. Also, drink a lot of water (about 120 oz per day), especially during the high-protein days.

Because you'll be shooting for the same number of total calories, Bill, in your case about 2,100, you will increase your carbohydrate and fat intake. For example, during your low-protein days, you would consume only around 400 calories from protein. The rest would be made up of carbohydrates and fat. In this case, you would go for a high carbohydrate intake (this is especially important during the first day of low protein intake) and try to eliminate fat as much as possible.


----------



## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

All right, let's move on to new business. A couple times, in previous articles, Torbjorn Akerfeldt has mentioned that the "micro-cycling" of macronutrients, specifically protein, may offer another way to "trick the body" into gaining new muscle size. To be honest, before Torbjorn introduced this theory, I had never heard, nor even thought, of cycling protein, but after he explained this theory to me and showed me the scientific rationale behind it, I'm beginning to believe there might be something to this new concept as well. In a recent interview with Torbjorn, I asked him about this theory. Here's how it went...

*Bill Phillips*: Let's talk about something you mentioned in our last interview-cycling protein intake. How does this work, and why would someone want to do this? I was under the impression that you had to consume a high-protein diet every day to gain muscle. It sounds like a wild theory to be honest.

*Torbjorn Akerfeldt*: I realize that by introducing the concept of protein cycling, I might cause some of your readers to say, "That Swedish guy with the unpronounceable name has finally gone nuts..." I say this because I've found that bodybuilders hold three things sacred: heavy squats, steroids-or creatine for drug-free bodybuilders-and a high protein intake. As long as you don't touch these dogmas, many bodybuilders will listen and be prepared to do some of the most outrageous, unscientific, and often dangerous things, in an effort to become bigger and stronger. However, I have to challenge one of these fundamentals: namely, the high protein intake. I know some of your readers, after reviewing even this much of the text, will flip to the next article. I warn them that this is a big mistake. By "hearing me out," I promise they'll learn something new about protein metabolism and muscle growth that may change the way they view protein intake forever, allowing them to reach a new standard of muscle growth and fat loss.

*BP*: Should we cycle protein like calories-going two weeks on a high-protein diet and two weeks on a low-protein diet?

*TA*: No. I need to emphasize that my theory involves reducing protein intake only for a few days at a time. In order to understand why this is important-why it could allow bodybuilders to get better results from their workouts-I need to explain some of the basics about protein and its biochemistry, so please bear with me. I believe that if more bodybuilders understood the contemporary science behind the metabolic processes of muscle growth and fat loss, they would be able to spot a flawed theory before they had put a lot of their blood, sweat, and tears-not to mention money-into it. As I've explained in my previous interviews, it is important to understand that we all react and adapt to dietary changes; our bodies are constantly trying to outsmart us, you might say. I see this not only in the gym but also when reviewing statistics from scientific studies on nutrition. The body is amazing.

*BP*: What is it about protein metabolism that I, and other bodybuilders, really need to know?

TA: Let me start with the basics-as you know, protein is made up of "building blocks" called amino acids, which basically consist of one, two, or three nitrogen atoms bound together with a carbon skeleton. Amino acids can be attached to each other by peptide bonds, thus forming long chains of interconnected amino acids. These chains or peptides are named after the number of amino acids they contain; hence, they are called dipeptides, tripeptides, etc. If there are more than 10 amino acids present, the term polypeptide is used, and if the number exceeds 50, they are normally referred to simply as "proteins." These proteins have different properties, depending on the sequence of the amino acids which form them. Actually, more than 100 amino acids exist in nature, but only 20 of them can be used to build proteins in the human body.

Examples of amino acids which can't be part of the protein structure include gamma-aminobutyric acid [GABA] and L-dopa, both of which are known to be used and misused by bodybuilders. The body also has the ability to change the structure of certain amino acids that have already been incorporated into proteins, thus forming new amino acids such as hydroxyproline [which exists in connective tissue] and 3-methylhistidine [which exists in muscle].

Furthermore, the body can make non-protein amino acids, such as ornithine, and the nonessential, or dispensable, amino acids, which are necessary to synthesize proteins. The reason the body has developed this dynamic ability to create new amino acids is to fulfill the precise needs of the body despite protein intakes that vary widely in quality and quantity. However, the body cannot manufacture all amino acids-certain ones just cannot be synthesized. These are called essential, or indispensable, amino acids. They must consequently be provided in the foods you eat.

*BP*: I follow you-we covered these things in my Sports Supplement Review®, and I agree this basic science of protein should be understood by bodybuilders. What do you think is important to know about protein metabolism?

*TA*: Protein metabolism is very complex and is an area of science we're only beginning to really understand. However, there are some things which are relevant to my theory which bodybuilders should have a handle on. Basically, what you need to know is that all the amino acids we ingest in the form of proteins are broken down to free amino acids and used, for example, to build new proteins according to the metabolic state that exists at that moment in the body. What the body does with the various proteins once it disassembles them into these free amino acids depends on your previous food intake, your physical activity, your hormonal status, and a number of other things. These new proteins, depending on the type [e.g., muscle, gut, and liver proteins], have different rates of turnover. Since this area is quite complex, I have created an overview chart [below] that will hopefully offer some assistance. I think this chart includes some important information, especially for Muscle Media readers with a scientific background who are eager to learn more about protein metabolism. The numbers were chosen with a 200-lb bodybuilder in mind.










The free amino acid pool is mainly located inside cells and constitutes only about one percent of the body's total amino acid content in the form of proteins. Since the free amino acid pool is smaller than the daily incoming amount of amino acids from food, the consequence of one day of protein deprivation could be disastrous. Luckily, the body has solved this problem by having a very high rate of protein turnover [more than one pound daily], and by keeping a pool of labile [this means they can easily change] proteins which are readily available to be broken down without interrupting normal body functions.9,14,17 By having this high rate of protein turnover, the body can easily change the distribution of proteins, and this is of prime importance. During infection [a form of metabolic stress], for example, when the body needs to synthesize antibodies [which are proteins], the building blocks [amino acids] will be taken mostly from labile proteins, but unfortunately, during longer periods of sickness, starvation, or trauma, muscle protein will also be broken down to provide raw material for new proteins.

By studying the chart, you can see how I came to the conclusion that there are at least four areas we as bodybuilders must target: 1) decrease amino acid breakdown, 2) increase protein synthesis, 3) decrease protein breakdown, and 4) increase the proportion of newly synthesized muscle proteins. All the details about how to accomplish this are too complicated to get into in this article. However, in regard to protein intake, I can mention that degradation, or breakdown, is temporarily suppressed by an increased protein intake,8,16 and synthesis is promoted at intakes above 1.4 grams of protein per kilogram of bodyweight per day [g/kgBW/d].16,21 For a 200-lb lifter, that's about 130 grams of protein per day.

The size of the free amino acid pool is remarkably constant,24 and this, my friends, is bad news for bodybuilders since it has been shown that the amount of free amino acids both inside muscle cells and in the blood6 governs protein synthesis. This pool can be controlled very closely by a "safety valve" called "oxidation."4 By this process, the carbon skeletons from the excess amino acids are used to create energy. This can happen directly or via the synthesis of glucose [gluconeogenesis] or fat.

Another "safety valve" is the up-regulation of the enzymes in the urea cycle. This metabolic cycle takes place in the liver, and its purpose is to eliminate nitrogen [from protein] by converting it into a water-soluble form called urea, which can be excreted in the urine. The urea cycle and other liver enzymes also break down excess amino acids directly.

There are also other "safety valves" or systems the body uses to maintain a constant amino acid and protein balance, but the important thing to remember is that there are a number of systems that are altered for better or worse when you follow a high-protein diet. The consequence of this is that if you habitually consume a high-protein diet, you are setting off multiple "adaptations" and alterations in how your body metabolizes protein-it influences your protein requirement.18,19 In other words, the more protein you ingest, the more you need! This may not sound so bad for a protein lover, but think twice and you will see its downside. Eventually, you will need such a high protein intake in order to generate the positive effects that health problems could occur.

Another consideration is a large amount of protein supplements could be necessary to meet the extraordinary protein requirement you've built up.

And, perhaps most importantly, if you develop this need for a high amount of protein and you miss a meal or during your long overnight fast [the time you don't eat while you're sleeping], your body is quickly thrown into a protein catabolic state. You literally have to eat protein every few hours in order to not go "catabolic."

As we've discussed in previous articles, your body has the ability to adapt to almost anything you subject it to. For example, those individuals [probably not Muscle Media readers] who consume alcohol habitually experience an up-regulation in certain enzymes that metabolize alcohol; thus, the more frequently they drink, the more they need to consume to get intoxicated [drunk]. Follow me?

*BP*: I think so. What you're saying is if I consume 400 grams of protein every day, initially this might cause an anabolic effect, but eventually, if I keep doing this, I'll need 400 grams of protein a day just to maintain my current level of muscle mass. Is this what you're saying?

*TA*: Exactly. The body adapts by up-regulating enzymes and systems that break down amino acids.

*BP*: So how much protein should we consume?

*TA*: At first glance, a diet dominated by protein seems to be the logical choice for every bodybuilder. After all, there are reasons this macronutrient is called protein-it's Greek for "of prime importance."

In addition to carbon, hydrogen, and oxygen, protein contains nitrogen and some sulfur, which make it different from fats and carbohydrates.

Protein can be used to create carbohydrates, and with some difficulties, it can be converted to fat, but carbohydrates and fats can never be turned into proteins unless nitrogen is present, and as we've already discussed, nitrogen comes only from protein.

Strangely enough, the current United States Recommended Daily Allowance (RDA) does not include an additional amount of protein for those who regularly engage in physical exercise.15 Several recent studies, however, indicate that dietary protein intake in excess of the current RDA [.8 g/kgBW/d-that's only 72 grams a day for a 200-lb bodybuilder] is likely needed for optimal muscle growth. For example, in one study, heavy resistance-training young adult men consuming 3.3 g/kgBW/d [which is about 300 grams per day for a 200-lb guy] versus 1.3 [about 120 grams a day] gained 2.2 more pounds of bodyweight in just 14 days4!

Another study found protein synthesis in strength-training subjects went up when protein intake was increased from .9 to 2.4 g/kgBW/d.21 These studies concluded that 2.4 and 3.3 g/kgBW/d, respectively, were in excess of the amount needed for optimal muscle growth. For example, in the study using 3.3 g/kgBW/d, the "safety valve," called oxidation, increased by 159%.4 These and other researchers now think that the "optimal" protein intake for strength-training athletes might be 1.8 g/kgBW/d11,21 [about 160 grams of protein for a 200-lb lifter].

I strongly disagree with this theory. I do not believe the subjects who put on an additional 2.2 lbs of mass in 14 days by increasing their protein intake to 3.3 g/kgBW/d4 would have been equally successful if they had increased it only to 1.8 g/kgBW/d.

*BP*: So why would the researchers only recommend 1.8 g/kgBW/d?

*TA*: I think the answer lies in how we would define the word "optimal." For bodybuilders, it means maximum muscle growth, while for scientists, it means, more or less, the level at which "safety valves" are induced disproportionately to increased protein intake.25 This discrepancy can be explained within the anabolic drive theory, which was developed by a scientist named D.J. Millward, who has developed other interesting theories on muscle growth which we've discussed in earlier parts of this article series.

Dr. Millward believes dietary protein is a key active nutritional regulator. In short, his anabolic drive theory states that "excessive dietary indispensable [essential] amino acids, prior to their oxidation, exert an important transient regulatory influence on growth, development, and protein turnover, through their activation of various hormonal and metabolic responses, which collectively constitute the anabolic drive."12

The response he's referring to consists of an increase in anabolic hormones, including thyroid hormone [T3] which, in small amounts, is anabolic in muscle tissue. The metabolic response is a direct effect of enzymes stimulating protein synthesis and inhibiting protein degradation.

Notice that Millward mentioned this is a transient phenomenon, giving evidence that the anabolic drive theory is very much in line with my protein cycling theory.

Basically, what it all amounts to is that there are pros and cons associated with a high protein intake-the way to get the positive without the negative is to cycle protein intake.

*BP*: How did you come up with your protein cycling theory?

*TA*: My interest in protein cycling originated about a year ago when I realized that if you change from a diet with normal protein intake to one with a high intake, after about a week, you will have less amino acids in your blood than before upping your protein intake.13 The reason for this is not only enzymatic adaptation but also hormonal changes. A high protein intake stimulates the release of a hormone called glucagon, which is a hormone that opposes the effects of the anabolic hormone insulin.

With increased protein intake, the urea cycle runs at a faster pace to excrete the nitrogen from the excess amino acids. Glucagon is also "consuming" amino acids, but in this case, to create glucose [gluconeogenesis] by up-regulating gluconeogenic enzymes. Unfortunately, these two systems overcompensate and thus decrease the amount of available amino acids in the bloodstream. However, it seems that the transport of amino acids into muscle is initially improved.

After examining this issue, I went on to explore what happens during a period of low protein feeding. What I discovered is there are several mechanisms that preserve muscle proteins in favor of, for example, liver proteins [which include more labile proteins], during this condition. First of all, muscle proteins have a longer life span than liver proteins, so initially [during the first few days of protein deprivation], liver proteins, rather than muscle proteins, are lost, and muscle mass is remarkably well preserved.7 Furthermore, the urea-cycle enzymes are down-regulated [interestingly, the same thing happens during overfeeding3]; thus, less urea is formed, and this urea can, under these conditions, even be recycled by something called the urea-salvage pathway to create amino acids again.10 This also takes place during training and recovery.2 Even more interesting are the events within the muscle cell. During the first day of a low protein intake, protein synthesis is decreased while the degradation is constant. After three days, however, the degradation is significantly lowered.23 Thus, in essence, a three-day, low-protein diet actually stimulates anti-proteolytic mechanisms, or "anti-catabolism" as it is often referred to in the muscle magazines.

Now comes the very interesting part-when you switch back to a high-protein diet, you create the perfect environment for super-compensation of muscle proteins [GROWTH!] to take place. Here's why:

The amino acids [nitrogen] will stay in the body since urea-cycle enzymes are still down-regulated, and the urea-salvage pathway is still operating.

The nitrogen balance in muscle is dramatically elevated because the synthesis is rapidly increased due to improved availability of amino acids20 and because it takes two days for protein degradation to increase23 back to your baseline value, which is still lower than average due to the high protein intake.8,16

These very important observations are the basis for protein cycling within the framework of my Anabolic Burst Cycling System. By doing these micro-cycles, especially during the low-calorie phase, you can experience muscle growth, even though you are on a restricted-calorie diet-you can build muscle and burn fat at the same time! This is what "nutrient repartitioning" is all about-you drive energy stores from fat to fuel muscle tissue. It is a "rob Peter to pay Paul" phenomenon. Unfortunately, this "primed condition" exists for only about two or three days.










*BP*: I see-what you're saying is that during the low-calorie phase of your Anabolic Burst Cycling Program, we should consume a high-protein diet for three days, then a low-protein diet for three days, then a high-protein diet for three days. How much protein are we talking about during each phase?

*TA*: In this case, I consider a low-protein intake to be equivalent to slightly above the RDA or 1.1 g/kgBW/d [for a 200-lb bodybuilder, that's roughly 100 grams of protein per day]. There really is no true protein malnutrition, as long as you eat enough carbohydrates to keep the "safety valves" closed [carbohydrates inhibit gluconeogenesis and the urea cycle]. Still, 1.1 g/kgBW/d is a small amount compared to what most bodybuilders ingest daily. I know some bodybuilders who regularly consume upwards of 400 or 500 grams of protein a day-they are definitely "protein dependent." Nevertheless, even my low protein intake is enough to maintain muscle mass in the steroid-free bodybuilder.22

If you take protein cycling to its extreme, you could go on an even lower protein intake-down to as low as 60 grams per day and instead consume high doses of glutamine and HMB. In this situation, as well as during overtraining, glutamine and HMB may be useful as they inhibit protein breakdown. This low intake of protein would prime the enzymes even more for the high-protein days.

I believe that, optimally, protein cycling should prime the enzymes, assuming we're talking about a 200-lb athlete with a single-digit bodyfat percentage who is fluctuating his protein intake between 100 grams on his low-protein days and around 250-300 grams on his high-protein days.

*BP*: What type of protein do you recommend? Should it be chicken, fish, milk protein, or whey protein?

*TA*: I believe during the low-protein days, the importance of protein quality is amplified. Whenever you drop protein intake, the amount of glutathione, which is the body's most important antioxidant, drops as well. This may be mitigated by supplementing the diet with ion-exchanged whey protein.1 Whey protein may also increase the amount of IGF-1, an important anti-catabolic hormone. And, whey proteins have the best amino acid profile, so they minimize the risk of deficiency in individual amino acids. Remember, the lack of one single type of amino acid is sufficient to hamper protein synthesis.

*BP*: Should a bodybuilder cycle protein during the high-calorie phase?

*TA*: I don't believe so. My impression is we shouldn't cycle protein intake during the overfeeding phase because we are trying to evoke a burst of anabolic hormones associated with overfeeding.5 During the anabolic/bulking phase, there must be a steady oversupply of all macronutrients. A two-week period of medium to high protein intake [approximately 2.5 g/kgBW/d-about 225 grams a day for a 200-lb bodybuilder] will not drive amino acid catabolic enzymes wild. I do not recommend consuming huge-that is, over 300 grams a day-amounts of protein over an extended period of time.

*BP*: There has been some debate in the scientific community about whether high-protein diets are dangerous. What do you think?

*TA*: I don't recommend a very high-protein diet nor protein cycling to people with insufficient kidney function [with serum creatinine over 150 micromol/l] since the high-protein days could throw such a person into a "uremic state," which is not only muscle catabolic but also very unhealthy. For people with critical liver dysfunction, a high-protein diet could also become a problem by inducing encephalopathy [brain damage].

For healthy people, however, protein cycling is probably healthier than chronic high protein intakes. I believe some bodybuilders who are consuming these outrageously high protein intakes-over 400 grams per day-underestimate the possible long-term side effects of such nutritional practices. With these super-high-protein diets, the excess protein is partly converted to toxic metabolites, such as homocysteine and ammonia. [You know you're consuming way too much protein when your gym clothes start to stink like ammonia-even after washing them!]

Most scientists I work with believe nowadays a moderately high-protein diet, especially for people who pay close attention to their fluid balance [increased water loss almost always accompanies a high-protein diet] are not at an increased risk for kidney or liver damage. The problem with many bodybuilders is that it's hard to determine if their abnormal liver and kidney parameters are a result of present or prior use of anabolic steroids or if it's due to dietary factors.

Bodybuilders who consume a super-high-protein diet and are convinced they need this much protein probably do! By consuming so much protein day in and day out, their bodies become so efficient at breaking down amino acids that they have turned their metabolic systems into "protein monsters" that devour amino acids before they can be used to build muscle tissue.

*BP*:If people are on high-protein diets, how can they get their systems back into balance?

*TA*: I would recommend that anyone who is on a very high-protein diet start cycling protein intake and gradually lower it. Let's say a 200-lb bodybuilder is consuming 400 grams of protein a day. What I would recommend is that for 3 days, he should cut down to 200 grams of protein a day, then go up to 350 grams a day for 3 days, then come down to about 150 grams a day, up to 250 grams a day for 3 days, and so on.

*BP*: Who should try protein cycling, and why?

*TA*: If a person's goal is to lose fat while gaining muscle at the same time, protein cycling is definitely something he/she should experiment with. In short, here are the basics which can set you up for your first protein cycle "test drive": the ideal period to start this is right after an overfeeding cycle in my Anabolic Burst Cycling System. You would start out with 3 days of high protein intake, which in this case is around 3.3 g/kgBW/d, which for a 200-lb athlete would be around 300 grams of protein per day. To this, additional amounts of carbohydrates and fats should be added to reach the desired total energy intake. For example, on your low-calorie/cutting days, I understand you're consuming around 1,800 calories. Now, if you want to follow my protein cycling program, you can consume 2,100 calories instead. Good news, huh? This has to do with protein's thermogenesis and thyroid-stimulating effect during hypocaloric conditions, as well as the fact that you also automatically cycle the intake of carbohydrates which, in this case, have a "sympathicomimetic effect" [which means they stimulate the nervous system]. For now, Bill, just trust me on this. After consuming 300 grams of protein, you'd have only about 900 calories left to consume. I would recommend around 125 grams of carbohydrates and roughly 45 grams of fat. Of course, people with a higher energy intake on their dieting days would consume more carbohydrates and fat.

After 3 days, you would switch over to 1.1 g/kgBW/d, which would be around 100 grams of protein per day or less. Be sure to use HMB and glutamine during the low-protein days to help minimize protein breakdown while you simultaneously attempt to "up-regulate" enzymes that will help us "super-compensate" protein storage [gain muscle size!] when we start our next high-protein micro-cycle.

I recommend you don't perform any weight-training exercise during the first of the low-protein days and no aerobics on the second morning. Also, drink a lot of water (about 120 oz per day), especially during the high-protein days.

Because you'll be shooting for the same number of total calories, Bill, in your case about 2,100, you will increase your carbohydrate and fat intake. For example, during your low-protein days, you would consume only around 400 calories from protein. The rest would be made up of carbohydrates and fat. In this case, you would go for a high carbohydrate intake (this is especially important during the first day of low protein intake) and try to eliminate fat as much as possible.


----------



## ba baracuss (Apr 26, 2004)

Interesting post Hacks :thumbup1:

Quite surprisingly (I did A-level Biology some years ago and have tried to apply it, but am no sicentist) backs up some of what I posted above.

So this protein cycling idea seems to be along similar lines to the rebound diets/cycles people who compete use - the sponge theory almost?


----------



## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Almost everything is cycled.

Steroids are cycled, for best results.

Drugs attenuate, meaning over time they don't work as well.

Diets over time tend to not work well (reefed is necessary).

Training needs peridisation, (a form of cycling).

Even if you drink alcohol every day you can take in more alcohol without being as intoxicated, take a month off and drink what you did before and let me know how that feels.

Id bet the guys that eat a lot of protein have done so for long periods of time and this probably is where they need to be due to the body's adaptation of nutrients.

If you were to add 500 calories to your daily intake, at the end of the week you would gain one pound of bodyweight (3500 calories).

Four pounds a month, or 52 pounds a year or 520 pounds in 10 years.

We know this is not so as the body will ramp up metabolism to avoid having too much excess tissue, and the body trying to support that.


----------



## big (Sep 14, 2004)

ba baracuss said:


> The fact that it works for those guys doesn't necessarily mean that taking in less wouldn't work though, does it?


No, and if you are happy with your gains and results, that's great, keep doing what you're doing.

The problem is, there are literally thousands (if not millions) of people eating mouse-sized portions of protein, and complaining that they aren't getting results. They should try increasing their protein significantly. The original poster is enjoying a significant increase in gains when increasing his protein.

I am convinced that those guys (Pscarb, TomB etc) would have tried lower quantities of protein, and decided that the higher quantity is better. I am sure they didn't wake up one morning and decide that 400g of protein was the way to go. While it doesn't mean it works for everyone, we can learn by other people's trial and error and use that as a starting point. If lots of big and strong people are doing the same thing, its a fairly safe bet there is a reason. Bodybuilders are natural born tweekers, so would have tried everything.

Have you actually tried gradually going up to (say) double the quantity of protein you currently take for a significant (> 3 month) period of time and found that it was worthless in terms of gains, and that protein in your urea had increased, or are you just guessing it wouldn't work better for you?


----------



## ba baracuss (Apr 26, 2004)

big said:


> No, and if you are happy with your gains and results, that's great, keep doing what you're doing.
> 
> The problem is, there are literally thousands (if not millions) of people eating mouse-sized portions of protein, and complaining that they aren't getting results. They should try increasing their protein significantly. The original poster is enjoying a significant increase in gains when increasing his protein.
> 
> ...


Personally speaking I cannot physically eat that much protein. I doubt any of the guys you mention could when they started out either - they gradually increased it to the levels they are at now.

Doing that ties in completely with the science in Hacks' post - their bodies are now so used to taking in such large quantities that they now NEED those quantities.

I could stuff myself full of protein but then I would be in the same boat, and I don't want to be. If it's possible to gain while eating sensible amounts of protein I'd rather do that.

I like eating but I don't want it to become a chore and I don't want to feel constantly bloated.

Hacks is an example that proves that you don't have to eat vast amounts of protein. How many other bodybuilders have followed his approach? Very few I would imagine as we are all fed the same kind of info - 'eat loads of protein'.

The OP has said that he ate large amounts of protein when natural and just got fat and made little gains. So that points to the gear aiding in the protein synthesis, as it must do for the big guys you mention.

I've not been training much lately as I've injured my back but once I am back up to full speed, I will bear your suggestion in mind and maybe try higher levels of protein if I'm not gaining, but I'd rather not do so if I don't have to.

How would you explain Hacks eating what he does and maintaining and improving his mass?


----------



## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

ba baracuss said:


> How would you explain Hacks eating what he does and maintaining and improving his mass?


Steroids..........lol

I am a big beer drinker too, so I would be not the best selection for using as a athlete, hell I dont even consider myself an athlete.... :lol:

But, I do think that an increase in protein if you are defficent or not getting enough would see results.

I do think that lets say 3 weeks of high protein would net some gains.

But remember steroids change this alot, you can use more protein on gear.

I myself cant eat that much protein, I guess I could but I would have to have more shakes and I really dont like shakes, I always prefere whole foods, or animal flesh over powders....

I am not a small guy and neither is my twin brother, we both eat a bout the same amounts of protein.

I do notice when I eat protein and fats last meal I tend to lose weight better.

But this may have to do with protein's effiiciency for metabolism and it being more thermic than carbs and fats.

But, I am a firm believer in the zone type diets, I have found myself they are the best energy giving meals and I got really lean on that.

It is based on 40/30/30 of carbs/fats/ proteins.

Damn, I just hyjacked a d-bol thread..................Sorry..........


----------



## bogman (Jun 25, 2007)

Interesting debate! Thanks for all the info & advice. Hackskii - I'll read that Bill Philips stuff tonight!

For me personally at least, I know that if I ate what I consumed on cycle, I would put on a lot of bf. However, I don't think I put on a huge amount of bf because of the gear. I can't prove any of this, but that's my view from past experience.

As per the other posts, I am going to consume 250 to 300g for PCT. I then want to do some cutting, but after that I intend to try 250 to 300g protein again and hopefully it will yield results. I'll probably do another cycle of DBol early in the New Year and will go back to ~400g again for that cycle..... but will wait until after PCT before really thinking about that!


----------



## bogman (Jun 25, 2007)

spoiledali said:


> At the moment I am following Geo's Clean bulking diet and I am just about managing to eat it all at the moment


Do you have a link to Geo's diet? I would be interested in reading it?


----------



## Cyborg (Aug 28, 2008)

bogman said:


> Do you have a link to Geo's diet? I would be interested in reading it?


See here mate (The word file is in post number 1 at the bottom):

http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/members-pictures/35609-geos-gh-journal.html

I am still managing to stick with it. Along with the 30mg per day of Dbol, I have put 3lbs on since Sunday


----------



## ba baracuss (Apr 26, 2004)

bogman said:


> I'll probably do another cycle of DBol early in the New Year and will go back to ~400g again for that cycle..... but will wait until after PCT before really thinking about that!


Any thoughts on what dosage you will use mate, based on results from this cycle etc?


----------



## bogman (Jun 25, 2007)

ba baracuss said:


> Any thoughts on what dosage you will use mate, based on results from this cycle etc?


I'd be interested in other's people's opinions on it - but I seem to have reacted well to 10mg, but I expect my body to be de-sensitized to it a bit also - so probably 15mg or 20mg a day? But just thoughts at this point. I'm still tempted to consider a test-e cycle.


----------



## bogman (Jun 25, 2007)

bogman said:


> I'd be interested in other's people's opinions on it - but I seem to have reacted well to 10mg, but I expect my body to be de-sensitized to it a bit also - so probably 15mg or 20mg a day? But just thoughts at this point. I'm still tempted to consider a test-e cycle.


I've been on PCT for two weeks today. Weight has still at 15st1 or 15st2 - so right now seems to be stabilising around 14lb gain.


----------



## ba baracuss (Apr 26, 2004)

bogman said:


> I've been on PCT for two weeks today. Weight has still at 15st1 or 15st2 - so right now seems to be stabilising around 14lb gain.


Nice one.

Test e sounds a good plan. That's what I would do if I ever dabbled.


----------



## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Test E is the bomb, you would just love that one, trust me...............Way better than oral's...............WAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Great gains, sides are well known and preventable, recovery is beautifal, and it is what you and me produce anyway................

I remember in the day Iranian Test E was the sh!t....................


----------



## bogman (Jun 25, 2007)

hackskii said:


> Test E is the bomb, you would just love that one, trust me...............Way better than oral's...............WAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> Great gains, sides are well known and preventable, recovery is beautifal, and it is what you and me produce anyway................
> 
> I remember in the day Iranian Test E was the sh!t....................


I've been very cautious to taking AAS (as I'm sure everyone can tell from my log!). However, now that I've done an oral cycle, I am coming slowly 'round to doing a Test-E cycle early next year and have read a lot about the advantages. Plenty of time to think about it, I guess....


----------



## craig306 (May 10, 2006)

is it ok to take an ECA stack with DBol ?


----------



## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

YEs, unless blood pressure is an issue.


----------



## bogman (Jun 25, 2007)

*Weekly update:* Now on 2 1/2 weeks into PCT. Definitely feel fully recovered, libido back to normal etc.

So - stats today:

- *Weight*: 211b (gain of ~14lb)

- *Waist*: 35'ish". Same as last week - up 3/4" from start.

- *Bicep*: 15"1/8. Gain of 3/4".

*Training *was:

Mon: Off

Tue: Weights - B Pr, Chins, Biceps curl

Wed: 40 Min cardio (Treadmill)

Thu: Off

Fri: Weights - Squats, B Pr, OHP, Tri ext

Sat: Run - 42:00

Sun: Weights - Squat, Row, Biceps Curl

Cardio - Bike - 30:00

All my weights are 5 x 5 as part of the volume phase of the Dual Factor routine. Cardio also felt better last week - feeling less sluggish and pretty much back to normal.

My weight has stayed very stable for the last 10 days or so. Hasn't moved from 211 or 212lb. I'm continuing to consume about 300g protein. Overall, I think I could be consuming a little too much calories for my new weight. However, I didn't want to risk losing any gains during PCT!

After checking with Hackskii, because I seem fully recovered, I'm going to start some cutting this week - I'm very keen to take some bf off my waist! I'm going to increase my cardio and reduce my calorie intake a bit. I've been reading up on carb cycling and am keen to give it a try - although it may be difficult for the next two weeks as I'm on holiday!

My thoughts right now are to do another cycle in January - probably Test-E - again at a relatively lower dose. However, after these good results, there's definitely a temptation to go back on sooner!

Interested in any comments or suggestions?


----------



## big (Sep 14, 2004)

No need for suggestions dude... you're getting bigger and stronger faster than pretty much anyone else... you should be handing out the advice


----------



## bogman (Jun 25, 2007)

big said:


> No need for suggestions dude... you're getting bigger and stronger faster than pretty much anyone else... you should be handing out the advice


Thanks - I've been pleased with the results and the sides were quite manageable! Cutting is going to be a new experience. When I've dieted in the past I've done it very gradually over a long period of time, losing only a pound or less a week.


----------



## Chris4Pez1436114538 (Sep 3, 2007)

bump for a later read, i have read other threads on this low dose d-bol and also have had discussions with a few people about it as well and people have found it works!

I know that samurai69 lowered his from 10mg down to 5 mg the second time he used i think it was and he still saw just as many gains!

I feel that too many people over look the power of this low dose on d-bol and how it can work for the individual doing it!

My friend is about to do a low dose of anadrol 5mgs a day 14 on and 14 off and i am sure he will see some good from it!


----------



## fits (Feb 3, 2004)

Chris4Pez said:


> My friend is about to do a low dose of anadrol 5mgs a day 14 on and 14 off and i am sure he will see some good from it!


 heard allot of bad press with that, will he be keeping a log? i'd like to see how he gets on?


----------



## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Anadrol is quite supressive.


----------



## Chris4Pez1436114538 (Sep 3, 2007)

i thought that only having a low dose of it though in 5mg doing a 14 on and 14 off he would be ok is this not the case?

Is anabol not the same a d-bol then?


----------



## bogman (Jun 25, 2007)

*Weekly update:* So - this will be my final update. PCT finishes on Thursday - only taking Nolva for the last 7 days. As per previous posts, libido, morning wood etc.. all back to normal for over two weeks now.

I started cutting last week - although I'm off work at the moment, so am having a few a few glasses of wine each night and a few meals out. However, I did manage to lose 1 lb! Did a no carb day too - and found it ok - so will get properly stuck in to carb cycling over the next few weeks.

So - stats today:

- *Weight*: 210b (gain of ~13lb, after 1 week dieting!)

- *Waist*: 34.75'ish". Down 1/4" since last week. Up 1/2" from start of cycle.

- *Bicep*: 15"1/8. Gain of 3/4".

I've also increased my cardio - but won't post my training this week as its probably not that relevant.

I'm continuing to follow Big's Dual Factor programme and am getting towards the end of the Volume cycle. I've substituted squats for deadlifts, but on the bench press, I've got 2kg past my previous PB for 5x5 (and think I can get out 2kg more this week). I was only on DBol for 2 weeks when I finished the volume part of the programme, but its encouraging that my strength is holding so far.

So overall, I think its safe to say at this point that I've gained 13 to 14lb on a low dose DBol cycle. I know a bit of this is bf, but I definitely notice more muscle in my clothes etc.... and a bit in the mirror. My dose averaged 70mg per week and peaked at 90mg in the last two weeks.

From what I've read, I can see the advantages of test-e via injection - and am seriously considering that for my next cycle in January. However, for someone who's nervous about using AAS and injections, from my experience I would recommend low dose DBol as a first cycle.

Finally, I want to thank all the people on the board who've helped me directly or indirectly. I actually train in a home gym.... so without all the info and advice on this website, I couldn't have got the results I did.

I will post a few pics later this evening.


----------



## Wilber (Aug 6, 2008)

Ive been keeping an eye on this thread, how many orals would u need a month while taking the low dose ed ? So how many pills do u go through each month?

Keep the good work up. looking forward to seeing some pics


----------



## bogman (Jun 25, 2007)

Front and back pictures attached. My posing is obviously crap, but at least its easier to compare with the BEFORE pictures earlier in this thread.

I'd be curious what people think my bf is? I'm keen to reduce it, but not sure what the percentage is!


----------



## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

15% maybe less...........

I can see your nuts have sprung back to life................lol


----------



## ba baracuss (Apr 26, 2004)

Nice one mate. Excellent results from such a low dose.

There are some pics somewhere here of bodyfat examples - at a rough guess I'd say 15% or so.

edit - beaten to it :tongue:



hackskii said:


> 15% maybe less...........


----------



## bogman (Jun 25, 2007)

hackskii said:


> I can see your nuts have sprung back to life................lol


Yes - PCT has certainly been effective! :thumb:


----------



## bogman (Jun 25, 2007)

hackskii said:


> 15% maybe less...........





ba baracuss said:


> There are some pics somewhere here of bodyfat examples - at a rough guess I'd say 15% or so.


Thanks guys. I've seen the pics - although a lot of links to pics don't work anymore. I would have guessed my bf was between 15 and 20%. So at least it looks like its towards the lower end of my estimate!

I want to lose about 2 inches off my waist..... which is generally the way I keep track of my bf levels.


----------



## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

2 inches would be between 8 and 10 lbs. if dieting correctly.


----------



## bogman (Jun 25, 2007)

hackskii said:


> 2 inches would be between 8 and 10 lbs. if dieting correctly.


Ok. That's about a 4 to 5% fat loss, so sounds about right as I should look pretty lean at 10%? Although, to be honest, I don't HAVE TO get to that level and I don't really want to spend more than a couple of month's dieting - so if I haven't quite managed to get there I'd rather go back bulking rather than spend more time dieting.


----------



## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Well, the less aggressive the diet, the less chance of muscle being removed during the diet.


----------



## bogman (Jun 25, 2007)

hackskii said:


> Well, the less aggressive the diet, the less chance of muscle being removed during the diet.


Yip - understood. But I think its also true that if you lose the weight very slowly (over say 4 or 6 months for example) - while you may not lose much if any muscle, you're missing out on time that could be used on a bulking diet? So, it sounds like you need to find the right balance between the two extremes?

Keto sounded a bit too agressive for me - apart from when I've been on DBol, I've found it very difficult to put on muscle, so I want to lose as little as possible while cutting!

How long would you think is a sensible time to lose 8 to 10lb, so as to minimize muscle loss?


----------



## big (Sep 14, 2004)

Just IMO I wouldn't be looking to cut if I were you.

I think you've added some decent mass, and should be looking to capitalise on that, rather than risking it while messing about eating under maintenance.

Keep the diet clean (low GI carbs, good fats, lots of protein), eat slightly over maintenance, do a bit of morning cardio here and there, and I reckon you'll gain mass while losing bodyfat.

Take this as an example:

210lbs @ 15% = 31.5lbs of fat

Add 10lbs of lean mass... = 220lbs and 31.5lbs of fat = 14% bodyfat

Job done... bigger and leaner


----------



## bogman (Jun 25, 2007)

Wilber said:


> Ive been keeping an eye on this thread, how many orals would u need a month while taking the low dose ed ? So how many pills do u go through each month?
> 
> Keep the good work up. looking forward to seeing some pics


Sorry mate, I missed this post. I was using 10mg DBol tablets - so I was taking one each day. So I used about 30 tablets a month. However, it will obviously depend on how many mg's in the tablets you have - I believe 10mg is quite common - but have also seen people mention 5mg tablets.


----------



## bogman (Jun 25, 2007)

big said:


> Just IMO I wouldn't be looking to cut if I were you.
> 
> I think you've added some decent mass, and should be looking to capitalise on that, rather than risking it while messing about eating under maintenance.
> 
> ...


Big - thanks for the advice. To be honest, I'm a bit torn on this one. And I see your point here. The key considerations for me are:

1. Despite eating a good diet with lots of protein, I still think I'll struggle to put on mass without AAS (from past experience).

2. My goals are a bit less ambitious than others - I would really "just" like to get to 225lb - but leaner than today (10 or 12% bf).

3. I like to have lowish bf (and the Missus prefers it too! :laugh. Apart from the last 3 years, since I was in school I've been doing endurance sports and have always been skinny with low bf (I was under 170lb!). So, I really wouldn't be comfortable if my bf increased any more, and would ideally like it a bit lower!

So, my current thoughts are to diet for a month or two max - and to try to do it conservatively, still consuming plenty of protein. This will hopefully minimize any muscle loss - and may even allow small gains. After this, I will start eating above maintenance again and see how I progress. As you suggest, I am also planning to do cardio - at least once a day.

Then, in January I plan to do another cycle (probably test-e) and will obviously eat huge again while on that cycle. I found on the DBol cycle I was able to very large amounts but not put on much bf, so hopefully the next cycle will be similiar.


----------



## gym_smash (Feb 8, 2008)

Hey Bogman, just had a quick read through.

Am I right in saying you did 10 mg dBol a day for 6 weeks?


----------



## Macca 1976 (Sep 16, 2008)

Greyphantom said:


> You might get a slightly greater incidence of sides at the higher level but tbh it shouldnt be that much more. You will shut down even at 10mg... so to maximise the first cycle I would up it to 25-30... I dont think its an exponential thing re the sides ie you should not get 2.5 times the sides with 2.5 times the dose sort of thing. If you have had very little sides now then you should be ok... I get a little water retention and of course the pumps but apart from that (and the growth) nothing... but each to his own and Hacks is a good chap to speak to... just remember pct is a must no matter how low the dose is and tbh I would skip HCG... over rated and not needed on a cycle such as this...


Whats Shut down as I am a notice:bounce:


----------



## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Supression of the Hypothalamus Pituitary Testicular Axis (HPTA).

There is a PCT sticky in this section "Understanding PCT."


----------



## bogman (Jun 25, 2007)

BigMatt1985 said:


> Hey Bogman, just had a quick read through.
> 
> Am I right in saying you did 10 mg dBol a day for 6 weeks?


I was on DBol for almost 7 weeks.

- First two weeks, I only took 5mg a day - partially due to nervousness etc..

- For the rest of the 7 weeks, I took 10mg a day. But for the last two weeks I took 20mg on the days I was doing weights (which was only 2 days a week).


----------



## bogman (Jun 25, 2007)

Macca 1976 said:


> Whats Shut down as I am a notice:bounce:


I'm sure the guys will correct me if I get any of this wrong, but this is my understanding. Basically, your testicles "shutdown" - they stop producing testosterone because there's already so much of the artificial stuff in your body. Then when you stop taking the artificial stuff it can take some time for them to re-awaken. This can be difficult because as a male testosterone is crucial - so you can feel lethargic, depressed amongst other symptoms due to the lack of test.

Drugs taken as part of PCT (Post Cycle Therapy) help your testicles to start producing natural test as quickly as possible.

As Hackskii says, there's a lot of excellent stuff on here explaining all this much better!


----------



## bogman (Jun 25, 2007)

Finished PCT yesterday. I can see why people are impatient to get back on AAS after coming off! But I should be able to hold off until January!


----------



## gym_smash (Feb 8, 2008)

bogman said:


> Finished PCT yesterday. I can see why people are impatient to get back on AAS after coming off! But I should be able to hold off until January!


Are you happy with your current gains??

In a nut shell what are your proudest gains since you started @197lb?


----------



## bogman (Jun 25, 2007)

BigMatt1985 said:


> Are you happy with your current gains??
> 
> In a nut shell what are your proudest gains since you started @197lb?


Yes - I was struggling to make further gains naturally (although may have partly been diet related) - so am very happy with the results. 14lb is above what I expected to be able to gain - particularly on such a low dose. To be honest, I'd would probably have happily accepted half of that.

Not sure I understand the question about my proudest gains?


----------



## gym_smash (Feb 8, 2008)

bogman said:


> Yes - I was struggling to make further gains naturally (although may have partly been diet related) - so am very happy with the results. 14lb is above what I expected to be able to gain - particularly on such a low dose. To be honest, I'd would probably have happily accepted half of that.
> 
> Not sure I understand the question about my proudest gains?


Sorry I wasn't very clear, I mean have you got new better lifts you are proud of?


----------



## bogman (Jun 25, 2007)

BigMatt1985 said:


> Sorry I wasn't very clear, I mean have you got new better lifts you are proud of?


Well - that would have to be the deadlift. I got it up to 210kg for 3 x 3. Nothing spectacular compared to some of the guys on here, but pretty good for me!


----------



## big (Sep 14, 2004)

210kg for 3x3 is very impressive dude... don't play down your achievements


----------



## gym_smash (Feb 8, 2008)

bogman said:


> Well - that would have to be the deadlift. I got it up to 210kg for 3 x 3. Nothing spectacular compared to some of the guys on here, but pretty good for me!


That's awesome!! Good on ya! I've still got a LOOOOOONG way to go before I'm anywhere near that.


----------



## GetNbig (Jun 30, 2008)

this is a really helpfull thread as i have my danabol form thailand and ovimun-clomid and ready to start it soon.no-one has mentioned anything about the hair loss issue-it is heriditary in my family tho.. :confused1:


----------



## bogman (Jun 25, 2007)

Hi - I'm not an expert, but I think its certain other AAS that are more likely to cause hair loss. I don't think I've seen anyone report hair loss is a side effect of DBol. However, do a search of this board for hair loss and I'm sure you can get more info.


----------



## marclee0988 (Mar 11, 2009)

you say your afraid of side effects right? thats what anti estrogen is for mate, clomid, nolvadex, arimidex heard of em? anyway good luck


----------



## PHHead (Aug 20, 2008)

Whats with the grave digging lol???


----------



## marclee0988 (Mar 11, 2009)

grave digging?


----------



## bogman (Jun 25, 2007)

I suspect he means you're responding to a question on an old thread?


----------



## marclee0988 (Mar 11, 2009)

ah oh right well its never to late for advice thought how ever old the problem in question may be(= hehehe


----------



## ricey (Nov 28, 2008)

good log mate its been an interesting read. i thought the same as a lot of others to be honest mate your protein intake is a bit over kill but im no expert so.

i personally would have dropped the protein to around 200g per day and upped the carbs and so on alittle.

all in all you seem to have gained pretty good tho fair play to ya


----------



## ricey (Nov 28, 2008)

ai's will hinder gains tho to an extent wont they? supressing the estrogen and all that. what would be the difference in say doing 30mg dbol a day but using a dex throughout as compared to a smaller dose of 15 without the adex? would the gains from the dbol with adex be that consideraably higher? are the sides of a compound soley dose dependant or does it just genreally differ from person to person to do with their genetics? id love to know


----------

