# 100% proof it is possible to recover while still using AAS



## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

My skinny mate on here* mrmasive:lol:* :lol: has been abusing gear, cruising and blasting for some time time now, I would suggest more of a constant blast than a cruise TBH:lol: :lol: :lol:

Long story short, he and wifey want a baby, so he put together (with my help of course:whistling a 10 week PCT plan to recover as much as poss to enable babymaking while still remaining on AAS etc etc

The plan was as such...

The Plan (from 04/01/10)

*Week 1 - 10 Test P 50 mg E4D*

Week 1 - 10 Naltrexone 5 mg EOD

Week 1 - 10 Triptorelin Acetate 200 mcg EOD

Week 1 - 10 Nolv 20 mg ED

Week 1 - 4 Proviron 200 mg ED

Week 1 - 4 Clomid 100 mg ED

Week 1 - 4 HCG 1500 iu EOD

Week 5 - 10 Proviron 100 mg ED

Week 5 - 10 Clomid 50 mg ED

Week 5 - 10 HCG 500 iu E4D

I'll also be using HGH, IGF, GHRP, Slin, Clen and ECA.

Supplements

L-Carnitine 5 g ED

Arginine 2 g ED

DHEA 50 mg ED

Vitamin E 1000 iu ED

Vitamin D 2000 iu ED

ZMA x4 ED

Now altho he posted 50mg E4D of prop, i would suggest that would have been slightly conservative as more might possible have "slipped" in by accident:lol: :lol: :lol:

I will now post 1st set of blood readings before PCT

http://www.ukiron.net/showthread.php?5938-PCT-after-long-term-ish-AAS-use-with-blood-work

log on ukiron.net for all to view


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## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

Blood samples taken on the 30/12/09

My readings are on the left, normal ref range on the right. The results are pretty much as I expected.

HAEMATOLOGY

HAEMOGLOBIN *18.6 (g/dL) 13.0 - 17.0

HCT *0.543 0.37 - 0.50

RED CELL COUNT *6.06 (x10^12/L) 4.40 - 5.80

MCV 89.6 (fL) 80 - 99

MCH 30.7 (pg) 26.0 - 33.5

MCHC 34.3 (g/dL) 30 - 35

RDW 14.5 - 11.5 - 15.0

PLATELET COUNT 299 (x10^9/L) 150 - 400

MPV 10.4 (fL) 7 - 13

WHITE CELL COUNT 6.37 (x10^9/L) 3.0 - 10.0

Neutrophils 3.65 (x10^9/L) 2.0 - 7.5

Lymphocytes 1.93 (x10^9/L) 1.2 - 3.65

Monocytes 0.51 (x10^9/L) 0.2 - 1.0

Eosinophils 0.24 (x10^9/L) 0.0 - 0.4

Basophils 0.04 (x10^9/L) 0.0 - 0.1

BLOOD FILM REPORT Blood film shows EDTA changes.

ESR 4 (mm/hr) 1 - 5

BIOCHEMISTRY

SODIUM 142 (mmol/L) 135 - 145

POTASSIUM ? Storage changes

CHLORIDE 104 (mmol/L) 98 - 107

BICARBONATE 28 (mmol/l) 22 - 29

UREA 5.9 (mmol/L) 1.7 - 8.3

CREATININE 79 (umol/L) 66 - 112

BILIRUBIN *23 (umol/L) 0 - 20

ALKALINE PHOSPHATASE 76 (IU/L) 40 - 129

ASPARTATE TRANSFERASE *112 (IU/L) 0 - 37

ALANINE TRANSFERASE *182 (IU/L) 10 - 50

LDH *694 (IU/L) 240 - 480

CK *323 (IU/L) 38 - 204

GAMMA GT 15 (IU/L) 10 - 71

TOTAL PROTEIN 72 (g/L) 63 - 83

ALBUMIN 46 (g/L) 34 - 50

GLOBULIN 26 (g/L) 19 - 35

CALCIUM 2.23 (mmol/L) 2.15 - 2.55

PHOSPHATE 1.32 (mmol/L) 0.87 - 1.45

URIC ACID *225 (umol/L) 266 - 474

FASTING BLOOD GLUCOSE 4.4 (mmol/L) 3.9 - 5.8

FASTING TRIGLYCERIDES 0.8 (mmol/L) < 2.3

FASTING CHOLESTEROL 3.3 (mmol/L) Optimum <5.0

HDL CHOLESTEROL *0.2 (mmol/L) 0.9 - 1.5

HDL % of total *6 (%) 20 and over

LDL CHOLESTEROL 2.7 (mmol/L) Up to 3.0

IRON *52.0 (umol/L) 10.6 - 28.3

T.I.B.C 75 (umol/L) 41 - 77

TRANSFERRIN SATURATION *69 (%) 20 - 55

Changes in Biochemistry may be due to age of sample.

ENDOCRINOLOGY

THYROID PROFILE 1

THYROID STIMULATING HORMONE 1.81 (mIU/L) 0.27 - 4.20

FREE THYROXINE 19.4( pmol/l) 12.0 - 22.0

FOLLICLE STIM. HORMONE *0.2 (IU/L) 1.5 - 12.4

LUTEINISING HORMONE *<0.1 (IU/L) 1.7 - 8.6

TESTOSTERONE 15.1 (nmol/L) 9.90 - 27.80

I had this done by The Doctor Ltd (just if anyone is interested)

BP is ok at 149/78


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## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

These results are after 10 weeks PCT & AAS, as you can see a remarkable recovery

Second set of results

HAEMATOLOGY

HAEMOGLOBIN *19.0 (g/dL) 13.0 - 17.0

HCT *0.544 0.37 - 0.50

RED CELL COUNT *5.88 (x10^12/L) 4.40 - 5.80

MCV 92.5 (fL) 80 - 99

MCH 32.3 (pg) 26.0 - 33.5

MCHC 34.9 (g/dL) 30 - 35

RDW 13.5 11.5 - 15.0

PLATELET COUNT 223 (x10^9/L) 150 - 400

MPV 11.2 (fL) 7 - 13

WHITE CELL COUNT 6.21 (x10^9/L) 3.0 - 10.0

Neutrophils 4.00 (x10^9/L) 2.0 - 7.5

Lymphocytes 1.60 (x10^9/L) 1.2 - 3.65

Monocytes 0.47 (x10^9/L) 0.2 - 1.0

Eosinophils 0.12 (x10^9/L) 0.0 - 0.4

Basophils 0.02 (x10^9/L) 0.0 - 0.1

BLOOD FILM REPORT Red cells, WBC and platelets appear normal.

ESR *11 (mm/hr) 1 - 5

BIOCHEMISTRY

SODIUM 144 (mmol/L) 135 - 145

POTASSIUM ? Storage changes

CHLORIDE 103 (mmol/L) 98 - 107

BICARBONATE 26 (mmol/l) 22 - 29

UREA 6.7 (mmol/L) 1.7 - 8.3

CREATININE 88 (umol/L) 66 - 112

BILIRUBIN 16 (umol/L) 0 - 20

ALKALINE PHOSPHATASE 76 (IU/L) 40 - 129

ASPARTATE TRANSFERASE 33 (IU/L) 0 - 37

ALANINE TRANSFERASE *52 (IU/L) 10 - 50

LDH *562 (IU/L) 240 - 480

CK *226 (IU/L) 38 - 204

GAMMA GT 29 (IU/L) 10 - 71

TOTAL PROTEIN 76 (g/L) 63 - 83

ALBUMIN 47 (g/L) 34 - 50

GLOBULIN 29 (g/L) 19 - 35

CALCIUM 2.40 (mmol/L) 2.15 - 2.55

Corrected Calcium 2.32 (mmol/L) 2.15 - 2.55

PHOSPHATE 1.21 (mmol/L) 0.87 - 1.45

URIC ACID 287 (umol/L) 266 - 474

FASTING BLOOD GLUCOSE 4.4 (mmol/L) 3.9 - 5.8

FASTING TRIGLYCERIDES 0.6 (mmol/L) < 2.3

FASTING CHOLESTEROL 3.0 (mmol/L) Optimum <5.0

HDL CHOLESTEROL *0.6 (mmol/L) 0.9 - 1.5

HDL % of total 20 (%) 20 and over

LDL CHOLESTEROL 2.1 (mmol/L) Up to 3.0

IRON *39.0 (umol/L) 10.6 - 28.3

T.I.B.C 56 (umol/L) 41 - 77

TRANSFERRIN SATURATION *70 (%) 20 - 55

Changes in Biochemistry may be due to age of sample.

ENDOCRINOLOGY

THYROID PROFILE 1

THYROID STIMULATING HORMONE 2.03 (mIU/L) 0.27 - 4.20

FREE THYROXINE 14.6 (pmol/l) 12.0 - 22.0

FOLLICLE STIM. HORMONE 1.5 (IU/L) 1.5 - 12.4

LUTEINISING HORMONE *1.5 (IU/L) 1.7 - 8.6

TESTOSTERONE 12.6 (nmol/L) 7.6 - 31.4

Reference Ranges apply to adults - Method changed to testosterone II effective 26.01.10


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## stonecoldzero (Aug 30, 2009)

Nice anecdote. :lol: :lol::laugh:


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## cecil_sensation (Jan 26, 2009)

im comfused after reading all that. glad you understand it all jw

good luck with the baby


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## hilly (Jan 19, 2008)

cracking stuff. so is he now off the prop as well then or will he run the prop constantly mate?


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## bigkiwi (Oct 2, 2008)

Nice one Joe. Results after 10 weeks are roughly in line with what i would have expected. What AAS dosages was he running immediately before he started this protocol? Will be interesting to see how long it takes to slide one past the wifes goaly


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## SA12 (Jun 2, 2004)

hilly said:


> cracking stuff. so is he now off the prop as well then or will he run the prop constantly mate?


I think the idea was for JW's mate :whistling: to get as close to normal as possible while still running AAS.


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## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

hilly said:


> cracking stuff. so is he now off the prop as well then or will he run the prop constantly mate?


Now back running a course

I think idea was to do a test run to see if was feasable as want baby production to start around sept time

So he will do this again on lead up to baby boom:thumb:


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## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

bigkiwi said:


> Nice one Joe. Results after 10 weeks are roughly in line with what i would have expected. What AAS dosages was he running immediately before he started this protocol? Will be interesting to see how long it takes to slide one past the wifes goaly


More that 1g a week I would have thought, he post on here so wil prob read and answer more in depth


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## Ak_88 (Nov 9, 2008)

TG's look good but the LDL and HDL cholesterol are a bit out of whack aren't they?

Perhaps not relevant to man-protein production, but potential cause for concern or not?


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## hilly (Jan 19, 2008)

Joe were these results taken while hcg/clomid and nolva were still in his system as my working out ten weeks from the 4th jan is sunday gone so these pct meds would still be active and playing apart in having test there.

Is the idea not to actually produce test on ure own but have other meds making ure body produce test so can help with sperm production so can have a baby


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## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

hilly said:


> Joe were these results taken while hcg/clomid and nolva were still in his system as my working out ten weeks from the 4th jan is sunday gone so these pct meds would still be active and playing apart in having test there.
> 
> Is the idea not to actually produce test on ure own but have other meds making ure body produce test so can help with sperm production so can have a baby


Unsure

But his FSH and LH were back working which is main thing

He is waiting on sperm motilty and and count results

So even if it were stil doing something< if sperm viable then who gives a fck

The PCT is not for any health reasons

Purely baby manufacture


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## Incredible Bulk (Sep 19, 2007)

hey joe, cheers for posting.

for my info, what is the proviron for? i thought @ 200mg it would keep you shut down?

noob in need of learning


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## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

Incredible Bulk said:


> hey joe, cheers for posting.
> 
> for my info, what is the proviron for? i thought @ 200mg it would keep you shut down?
> 
> noob in need of learning


Apart from lowering SHBG enabling free test to do its work

Once sperms are fully matured after 70 days ish I think, It increases sperm motility without any negative effect on HPTA

ALso its and androgen so prob has some nice hardening properties

No known anabolic activity tho


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## Incredible Bulk (Sep 19, 2007)

Hmmmmm.... i have plenty of proviron to hand and i am too in PCT to make the baby batter lol

will add in at 200mg for 2 weeks and 100mg for the remainder

my pct was different to the above as i dropped HCG before starting the clomid/nolva


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## mick_the_brick (Oct 29, 2008)

Incredible Bulk said:


> hey joe, cheers for posting.
> 
> for my info, what is the proviron for?* i thought @ 200mg it would keep you shut down?*
> 
> noob in need of learning


I'll dig you out a study when I get chance...

the study was done @ 150mg ED for 16 weeks IIRC.

It didn't affect the HPTA negatively


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## Incredible Bulk (Sep 19, 2007)

i'll take your word for it mick, you've never steered me wrong yet


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## Testoholic (Jun 13, 2009)

intresting read, i say time and time again when it comes to conceiving whilst on gear the key is hcg. ive managed to concieve twice during my 3 year blast and cruise. i would recommend an initial 'blast' hcg prorocol followed by a lower dose cruise. i was doing 1250 i.u's every 3rd day when the magic happened


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## hilly (Jan 19, 2008)

jw007 said:


> Unsure
> 
> But his FSH and LH were back working which is main thing
> 
> ...


This is what i was getting at/thinking. For people who really dont want to come off and health wise there is no need to but want a kid this could be an ideal approach.

If his sperm count comes up it will be a very good achievement and bit of medical research you have done my friend.

shame he doesnt no what his sperm count was before gear use as a comparison etc


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## Craig660 (Dec 8, 2005)

Just out of curiosity, how much did that blood test cost ?

cheers


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## sizar (Nov 13, 2008)

around 150-200


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## tuna_man (Nov 24, 2009)

jw007 said:


> These results are after 10 weeks PCT & AAS, as you can see a remarkable recovery
> 
> Second set of results
> 
> ...


JW007, not to be a pain in the ar*se mate, i do beleive sperm production can be recovered to some extent, and it is entirely possible to conceive.

However, the highlighted results are not exactly a proper recover, LH below normal and FSH at the bottom of the range. These are extremely low, and if caompared to someone who never used gear then used, it would never be this low at baseline. Also, test is being influenced by the other chemicas and test P.

The LH and FSH definately still show an extremely dampened down, dysfunctional HPTA, that is nowhere near a complete recovery.

TBH though, as you said mate, you dont give a sh1t as long as you can conceive, which im sure you will, so best of luck mate i hope it goes well for you


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## Lois_Lane (Jul 21, 2009)

tuna_man said:


> TBH though, as you said mate, you dont give a sh1t as long as you can conceive, which im sure you will, so best of luck mate i hope it goes well for you


Exactly, however the title of the thread is misleading as no real recovery that would be maintainable without the drugs has been achieved.


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## Old but not out (Sep 8, 2009)

tuna_man said:


> JW007, not to be a pain in the ar*se mate, i do beleive sperm production can be recovered to some extent, and it is entirely possible to conceive.
> 
> However, the highlighted results are not exactly a proper recover, LH below normal and FSH at the bottom of the range. These are extremely low, and if caompared to someone who never used gear then used, it would never be this low at baseline. Also, test is being influenced by the other chemicas and test P.
> 
> ...


I am not sure how you could possibly recover LH and FSH in such a short time.

Take out the 5-weeks of hCG dose and you have only a 5-week period where LH/FSH recovery could occur.

The likelihood of this occurring is further limited by the addition of 50mg Test P every 4 days. It is possible that a fully functioning HPTA could maintain function on such a dose but I would be very doubtful as to wether full recovery of a suppressed HPTA could occur


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## tuna_man (Nov 24, 2009)

Lois_Lane said:


> Exactly, however the title of the thread is misleading as no real recovery that would be maintainable without the drugs has been achieved.


Exactly what i thought mate. I was kinda thinking there would be a test level of around 25nmol/l (720ng/dl in american units for you con), and lh and fsh at least mid range, with no pharmaceuticals in the system; so it was misleading.

Now 720 natural test and medium lh/fsh would be a REAL recovery!

TBH though i dont think that can ever be achieved after steroid use, even one cycle.


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## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

Sperm count 2.6 to 12.3

motility 19.5% to 43%

keep in mind only 10 weeks, takes aporox 70 days for sperm maturation

AND was on aas constantly


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## warren (Jun 16, 2008)

me and the girl are hoping to try for a baby soon. we werent planning on seriously trying until i came off AAS but after talking about it we have decided if there is anything we can do while im still cruising then it is worth a try until i do come off. the next time we will try i will be cruising on 250mg of test e pw. now a few questions:

would the same protocol help us? and just so i know what to expect should i expect gains to slow down folling the protocol?

i did a fertility score test which i bought online and came up negative meaning for every ml of sperm there was less than 20million or mobility was poor. however you were ment to wait three days without ejaculation and we had, had sex ALOT. we didnt know we had to wait.


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## Lois_Lane (Jul 21, 2009)

Warren based on your name you are aged what 22-23?

Do you intend on using gear at least for hrt for the rest of your life?

Purely curious....


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## warren (Jun 16, 2008)

Lois_Lane said:


> Warren based on your name you are aged what 22-23?
> 
> Do you intend on using gear at least for hrt for the rest of your life?
> 
> Purely curious....


hi con

this wasnt ment to be blast and cruise, sort of spiralled away from me, the plan was to finish the length of blast and cruise and then come off either for good or for a very long time until i have children. we did not plan on havent children this soon but plans have changed, i think once we have had all our children (two) hopefully four years apart. then yes i will stay on for good running hrt levels if needed as time goes on.


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## mrmasive (Dec 30, 2005)

As jw has already pointed out the idea was to do a test run to see if all these "ideas" being passed around regarding PCT actually worked because i personally haven't seen any real evidence to suggest so.

The reason i ran the Test P is because i have been using gear for a while and didn't want to increase the risk of a potential crash and feeling pooh and also to see if i could run low dose AAS and improve my levels at all :lol:

As for "not being fully recovered" and "results are only what they are because of the meds in my system" is besides the point. Facts are within 10 weeks my levels went from practically zero to within acceptable normal range. I don't want to get into a long drawn out debate about how they are "low normal blah blah blah" it was a 10 week trial and IT WORKED. So what if i need to run the meds to keep my levels normal, having a baby means much more to me that worrying about med influenced results 

The second results alone would cause no concern for a doctor to suggest anything other than to keep trying. Poor doc couldn't get her head around it :lol:

When i do this for real, clearly the longer i'm doing it the better the results will be and will continue to improve. I will run these meds - perhaphs modify the dosages after the initial 10 weeks - untill my wife is pregnant. The only thing i intend to do differently is to add in some HMG, only reason i didn't use it this time is because i couldn't get my hands on any lol


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## Old but not out (Sep 8, 2009)

tuna_man said:


> Exactly what i thought mate. I was kinda thinking there would be a test level of around 25nmol/l (720ng/dl in american units for you con), and lh and fsh at least mid range, with no pharmaceuticals in the system; so it was misleading.
> 
> Now 720 natural test and medium lh/fsh would be a REAL recovery!
> 
> TBH though i dont think that can ever be achieved after steroid use, even one cycle.


I have had bloods done at the age of 38 which indicated that I had a Test levels of 29 and 31 nmol/L on two separate occasions separated by 30 days. I had probably done between 10-12 short cycles in the eight years prior to this (4-12 weeks). Looking at results from my early twenties (range 26 -34) I would judge I had full recovery?


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## tuna_man (Nov 24, 2009)

Old but not out said:


> I have had bloods done at the age of 38 which indicated that I had a Test levels of 29 and 31 nmol/L on two separate occasions separated by 30 days. I had probably done between 10-12 short cycles in the eight years prior to this (4-12 weeks). Looking at results from my early twenties (range 26 -34) I would judge I had full recovery?


If that was after any test/clomid/nolvadex/hcg had long cleared your system (i.e. at least 2 months after), then it is truly remarkable.

If so then i modify my statement, it is quite rare for full recovery to occur to such an extent, and apart from you, all the bloods ive seen/heard of seem to confirm this. I think its genetic, that some peoples hormonal axes recover so well, while others can get permanent alteration (reduction) in hpta functioning even off a few weeks of orals (dont laugh, its true!)

BTW mate, what was your on cycle ancillary usage, and PCT protocol, id be interested to see it. And what sort of cycles did you run (e.g. doses, length, compounds), as we may all be able to learn from you if you recovered so well


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## nibbsey (Feb 12, 2008)

mrmasive said:


> As jw has already pointed out the idea was to do a test run to see if all these "ideas" being passed around regarding PCT actually worked because i personally haven't seen any real evidence to suggest so.
> 
> The reason i ran the Test P is because i have been using gear for a while and didn't want to increase the risk of a potential crash and feeling pooh and also to see if i could run low dose AAS and improve my levels at all :lol:
> 
> ...


Not being a [email protected] in any way but surley if having a baby means so much to you, coming off and feeling pooh for a bit wont bother you either.??

Just a question


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## Archaic (Mar 8, 2010)

If it was 50mg Prop E4D, that works out approx 73mg exogenous Test p/w after ester weight is removed.

I've read a few studies that suggests 50mg exogenous p/w could in theory not show a negative effect on the HPTA if cycled short term, but I do not think the above dose of Prop on an already heavily suppressed HPTA would be very productive if recovery/fertility is the goal.

OP is running a hell of allot of meds to get the results posted. If you are going to put your body through the stress of all those separate compounds, why not come off completely and achieve more productive results?

Not worth hampering your goal for the sake of an extra 73mg exogenous Test p/w IMO if you're doing this for your future kid. There's plenty of things you can run for mood if that's your concern. Bremelanotide will have you humping the arm of the sofa even if castrated.


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## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

tuna_man said:


> JW007, not to be a pain in the ar*se mate, i do beleive sperm production can be recovered to some extent, and it is entirely possible to conceive.
> 
> *However, the highlighted results are not exactly a proper recover, LH* below normal and FSH at the bottom of the range. These are extremely low, and if caompared to someone who never used gear then used, it would never be this low at baseline. Also, test is being influenced by the other chemicas and test P.
> 
> ...





Lois_Lane said:


> Exactly, however the title of the thread is misleading as* no real recovery that would be maintainable without the* drugs has been achieved.


Title poss misleading

Agreed full recovery not yet obtained

The point was (con you negative fcker:lol That recovery had begun and had made significant improvement after 10 weeks *all the while AAS were being used:lol:*

This is also without use of *HMG* which will be used next time and should make a significant difference

The point was

The road to *Recovery\fertility* is possible while aas are being administrated


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## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

mrmasive said:


> As jw has already pointed out the idea was to do a test run to see if all these "ideas" being passed around regarding PCT actually worked because i personally haven't seen any real evidence to suggest so.
> 
> The reason i ran the Test P is because i have been using gear for a while and didn't want to increase the risk of a potential crash and feeling pooh and also to see if i could run low dose AAS and improve my levels at all :lol:
> 
> ...


Beat me too it

Just got home mate lol:lol: :lol:


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## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

nibbsey said:


> Not being a [email protected] in any way but surley if having a baby means so much to you, coming off and feeling pooh for a bit wont bother you either.??
> 
> Just a question


which is why he did the test run 1st to see if it was feasable

Dont you people read posts properly:lol: :lol:

If it wasnt successful he would have to of course come off when trying for real


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## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

Archaic said:


> If it was 50mg Prop E4D, that works out approx 73mg exogenous Test p/w after ester weight is removed.
> 
> I've read a few studies that suggests 50mg exogenous p/w could in theory not show a negative effect on the HPTA if cycled short term, but I do not think the above dose of Prop on an already heavily suppressed HPTA would be very productive if recovery/fertility is the goal.
> 
> ...


apart from clomid which is sh1t, got any studies of negative effects of other meds????

ANd your suggestion to a prop free successfull fertility PCT would also be much appreciated:thumbup1:


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## Archaic (Mar 8, 2010)

jw007 said:


> ANd your suggestion to a prop free successfull fertility PCT would also be much appreciated:thumbup1:


The protocol looks fairly good to me, not much need to change it, bar adding in some HMG and dropping the pointless Prop. You cannot possibly sit there and tell me the results would have been the same if there was no exogenous Test further suppressing the HPTA throughout this experiment.

I can see the point that was trying to be made, but it's cutting off the nose to spite the face if the real goal is to conceive - all for the sake of 73mg exogenous p/w.. 

Nice post though, there is allot of good data there and fair dues for sticking it out and going down the proper channels to get real world data.


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## tuna_man (Nov 24, 2009)

Im with archaic on this one, and id even get rid of the proviron or reduce it to 50-75mg to keep the pecker working


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## Old but not out (Sep 8, 2009)

tuna_man said:


> If that was after any test/clomid/nolvadex/hcg had long cleared your system (i.e. at least 2 months after), then it is truly remarkable.
> 
> If so then i modify my statement, it is quite rare for full recovery to occur to such an extent, and apart from you, all the bloods ive seen/heard of seem to confirm this. I think its genetic, that some peoples hormonal axes recover so well, while others can get permanent alteration (reduction) in hpta functioning even off a few weeks of orals (dont laugh, its true!)
> 
> BTW mate, what was your on cycle ancillary usage, and PCT protocol, id be interested to see it. And what sort of cycles did you run (e.g. doses, length, compounds), as we may all be able to learn from you if you recovered so well


At that time I had never done a PCT - ever. I had used nolva in cycle to prevent gyno but never after and never clomid. Had never used hCG.

My cycles were varied the first 12 weeks of dianabol at 30mg a day. The next was a big cycle - 12 weeks included all sorts, it was so long ago that I can t remember but it certainly had a base of testosterone (500mg/week) and varying other compounds - parabolan, primobolan and winstrol. Probably close to a gram a week of steroid in total.

Other cycles woyuld have been between 4-8 weeks in general, three or four of those would have included testosterone, one deca, the rest were orals of winstrol, dianabol and anavar.

I never ever suffered after cycles, recovery was seamless - just seemed to ride through. No loss of sex drive, motivation etc. The only times I have had a bad recovery was this year and those were moderate cycles 300 - 500mg of test a week for 6 and 8 weeks plus a little winstrol (orally) for the first two weeks of both. The recovery was hard from these. The first cycle included an AI during and nolva and clomid after as a PCT. The second included an AI during as well as 250iu of hCG 2-3 times a week and a nolva PCT (looking back this level of hCG was too low for me).

In order to recover this time I have had to do another PCT of 1000iu of hCG (EOD) for 9 shots and a 30 days clomid and 45 days nolva.

The testosterone results I referred to earlier came 6 and 10 weeks after a 6-week dianabol cycle. I had full bloods done on both occasions (I cannot remember either LH or FSH levels). IGF 1 also came back at top of range. all other bloods were normal and there was no indication of AAS use at all.

The only change I have noted over the years is a change in my test to epi test ratio. In younger years this was around 2.5 to 1, at 38 it was 4.8 to 1. This would have been enough to warrant investigation in a doping scenario. I have no real theory as to whether t to TE ratio has changed because of AAS use or age.

I work in research with my doctrate being based on natural secretion of T, so I have a fair knowledge. I have no idea if it age that has down regulated my recovery this time or wether there is another factor that I have missed. The only variation from past cycles was an AI (letro and arimdex) and the addition of PCT!


----------



## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

But, lets not forget with the use of HCG the testicles will still be producing testosterone outside of the 50mg a week or E4D with the prop.

Serum test would mean nothing with exo and endo working to skew the tests.

LH and FSH were low, even on clomid, nolva, nalterxone, and Triptorelin.

All the hormonal numbers are being influenced by other drugs.

The real proof is if he gets his woman pregnant and has a healthy child.

I have heard of guys getting their women pregnant using HCG alone.

Recovery really would be with no other exogenous stimulation and be within range with your hormones.

Intravenous injection of 100 μg of GnRH causes serum LH levels to increase threefold to sixfold during a period of 30 to 45 minutes and FSH levels to increase between 20 and 50%.


----------



## tuna_man (Nov 24, 2009)

hackskii said:


> But, lets not forget with the use of HCG the testicles will still be producing testosterone outside of the 50mg a week or E4D with the prop.
> 
> Serum test would mean nothing with exo and endo working to skew the tests.
> 
> ...


Sums up the fallacy of this 'recovery' perfectly. Reps!


----------



## Jimmy1 (Aug 14, 2003)

im suprised mr Grant even has a penis...let alone a mrs

i thought the text about getting married was to cover up his gaynes???


----------



## mrmasive (Dec 30, 2005)

nibbsey said:


> Not being a [email protected] in any way but surley if having a baby means so much to you, coming off and feeling pooh for a bit wont bother you either.?? Just a question


Glad you asked just so i can point out again that this was purely a trial. Test or no test the results speak for themselves. And yes, dropping the test will be nothing compared to having a baby. Just didn't want to as it wasn't all that important this time round



Archaic said:


> The protocol looks fairly good to me, not much need to change it, bar adding in some HMG and dropping the pointless Prop. You cannot possibly sit there and tell me the results would have been the same if there was no exogenous Test further suppressing the HPTA throughout this experiment.
> 
> I can see the point that was trying to be made, but it's cutting off the nose to spite the face if the real goal is to conceive - all for the sake of 73mg exogenous p/w..
> 
> Nice post though, there is allot of good data there and fair dues for sticking it out and going down the proper channels to get real world data


No one has said the results would be the same if test wasn't used, the point is recovery is possible whilst using test! Really are taking this out of context.

As for your test levels being so super high after years of gear well done you, little do you know my test levels taken a few years ago weren't much higher than they are now, everyone is different



tuna_man said:


> Im with archaic on this one, and id even get rid of the proviron or reduce it to 50-75mg to keep the pecker working





tuna_man said:


> Sums up the fallacy of this 'recovery' perfectly. Reps!


Why? Because you have read that somewhere or actually done it yourself?

Tuna_man you really are a negative fishy minge!



hackskii said:


> Serum test would mean nothing with exo and endo working to skew the tests.
> 
> LH and FSH were low, even on clomid, nolva, nalterxone, and Triptorelin.
> 
> ...


No wanting to be rude here but i don't give a fcuk what you have heard or if the levels are only influenced by meds if i get my wife pregnant. Show me evidence that anything a guy takes has a directly negative effect on the baby because i can't find any. Having said that i generally read your stuff because it if informative.



Jimmy said:


> im suprised mr Grant even has a penis...let alone a mrs
> 
> i thought the text about getting married was to cover up his gaynes???


aaww jimmy, are you still ****ed at me for rejecting your offer of as much **** as i want? Lol x



jw007 said:


> Beat me too it Just got home mate lol


In hindsight, was it worth sharing? lol


----------



## Old but not out (Sep 8, 2009)

mrmasive said:


> Glad you asked just so i can point out again that this was purely a trial. Test or no test the results speak for themselves. And yes, dropping the test will be nothing compared to having a baby. Just didn't want to as it wasn't all that important this time round
> 
> No one has said the results would be the same if test wasn't used, the point is recovery is possible whilst using test! Really are taking this out of context.
> 
> ...


Without a doubt - this type of information is great.


----------



## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

mrmasive said:


> In hindsight, was it worth sharing? lol


Not on this board mate

My fault im sorry, should have kept it to Ukiron where input was positive

You provide real world imperical data, trying something new, thinking outside the box, and all you get is slated and negative comments and people quoting sh1t regurgetated from something they read somewhere

Why dont one of you pr1cks try it and see what results you get??

For record..

experiment was IS IT POSSIBLE TO INCREAS FERTILITY AND START RECOVERY WHILE USING AAS

answer

YES

Could it be done better without using aas?? prob,

But that was not point of experiment now was it

In future may as well stick to posting 12 week test and fckin deca courses like rest of the sheep


----------



## Old but not out (Sep 8, 2009)

tuna_man said:


> If that was after any test/clomid/nolvadex/hcg had long cleared your system (i.e. at least 2 months after), then it is truly remarkable.
> 
> If so then i modify my statement, it is quite rare for full recovery to occur to such an extent, and apart from you, all the bloods ive seen/heard of seem to confirm this. I think its genetic, that some peoples hormonal axes recover so well, while others can get permanent alteration (reduction) in hpta functioning even off a few weeks of orals (dont laugh, its true!)
> 
> BTW mate, what was your on cycle ancillary usage, and PCT protocol, id be interested to see it. And what sort of cycles did you run (e.g. doses, length, compounds), as we may all be able to learn from you if you recovered so well


Are you in a profession where you regularly sample serum testosterone from ASS users?

If you knowledge comes from individuals who post on boards such as this or from individuals seeking advice the chances are you will only hear "bad news". Nobody (or rarely) posts and indicates they have had good bloods backs after PCT?

Taking this information and using it as an overview of what happens to all individuals who take ASS is not accurate and I would guess paints a dark picture?

The abstract attached exemplifies this - all 19 men recovered to pre-cycle serum testosterone levels

ScallyVergelAstractHPGA.pdf


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## tuna_man (Nov 24, 2009)

mrmasive said:


> Tuna_man you really are a negative fishy minge!


Mate, every comment i made was with good intentions and using common sense. I even acknowledged that recovering was probably irrelevant as long as you were able to conceive and even wished you luck (which i still do).

The bottom line is though that the thread title was misleading, there was no 'recovery' as it is known to most other members on here who cycle every so often.

What we have is a protocol using a boatload of different drugs still only achieving barely detectable levels of lh and fsh, and it would be misleading to call this 100% proof of recovery for the more gullible members who may start abusing drugs.

If you wanted to increase sperm production, why use the entire cocktail?Either come off or stay on. Even if you stayed on, all you need is HMG and HCG administration on a regular basis for 2-3 months (to make up for FSH and LH action on the testes) and voila - spermatogenesis. And it would probably cost less than the entire pharmacopeia that is in use in that protocol.

Nobody on this thread is posting to hurt your feelings or offend you, however you cannot get get annoyed at people for disagreeing with you.

Good luck with conceiving, I sincerely wish you all the best, and was only posting to point out deficiencies in the theory


----------



## Archaic (Mar 8, 2010)

mrmasive said:


> No one has said the results would be the same if test wasn't used, the point is recovery is possible whilst using test! Really are taking this out of context.


You haven't recovered, so not sure what your point is. Also, for the sake of 73mg exogenous p/w, what have you gained by injecting it? (excluding hampered results?)



mrmasive said:


> As for your test levels being so super high after years of gear well done you, little do you know my test levels taken a few years ago weren't much higher than they are now, everyone is different


Not sure who you meant to quote there, but it was not me.

Don't want to come over negative guys as it's not my intention, but yourself and jw007 are coming across quite defensive, which will only provoke further negativity.

You've posted up results on a open forum, if you did not want scrutiny, thoughts on the data, it would have been better kept off the main board. I can see you've put allot of effort in and I do admire the research you've done/genuine data gathered - I think you've actually done a nice job thus far considering, but the results would no doubt be better without that stupid dose Prop, just to say I was on AAS.. 

Plenty of things you can run to take care of the mental side of things without needlessly suppressing the HPTA, just for the sake of it.. JMO.

Nice post though man, I do admire your attentiveness.


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## tuna_man (Nov 24, 2009)

Old but not out said:


> Are you in a profession where you regularly sample serum testosterone from ASS users?
> 
> If you knowledge comes from individuals who post on boards such as this or from individuals seeking advice the chances are you will only hear "bad news". Nobody (or rarely) posts and indicates they have had good bloods backs after PCT?
> 
> ...


I dont regularly interact with ASS users i fear for my safety:lol:

On a serious note though, ive seen that abstract many a time, and i recall seeing in the actual study that bloods were taken pretty soon after, possibly even on day 45, where tamoxifen is still in the system, as is a residual effect from clomid. Im not doubting the recovery though as Dr. Scally is a genius. however, by your own reasoning, you recover way better without PCT than with, so surely this study goes against your theory?

But I take my hat off to Dr. Michael Scally, he has helped so many people suffering Anabolic Steroid Induced Hypogonadism, and is a revolutionary in pointing out the ignorance the medical profession show towards ASIH.

It is still a fact that a proportion of the population recover extremely poorly, and need extended therapy, and Patrick Arnold (AKA Mr norbolethone, THG, Balco chemist, M1T, 6-OXO etc etc) has even mentioned this. Maybe I just hear of these sorts of people, but unless we have bloods from thousands or people before and long after their first ever cycle, we will never know how common it is.


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## warren (Jun 16, 2008)

jw007 said:


> Not on this board mate
> 
> My fault im sorry, should have kept it to Ukiron where input was positive
> 
> ...


deleted the word pr**k lol as im not saying i am and im actually interested in this, but have a few questions

would i need the same ammount of hcg and privion or would this depend on how long i have been on and how much? i will be very happy to give this a go as im trying to get my gf pregnant , we were waiting untill i came off but im happy to guiny pig this. i took a home fertility test and im neg at the mo so will be good to show ppl it works by getting this donw and knocking her up lol


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## Jimmy1 (Aug 14, 2003)

mrmasive said:


> aaww jimmy, are you still ****ed at me for rejecting your offer of as much **** as i want? Lol x


yarp

i hear you like em big, hairy and green now days


----------



## Old but not out (Sep 8, 2009)

tuna_man said:


> I dont regularly interact with ASS users i fear for my safety:lol:
> 
> On a serious note though, ive seen that abstract many a time, and i recall seeing in the actual study that bloods were taken pretty soon after, possibly even on day 45, where tamoxifen is still in the system, as is a residual effect from clomid. Im not doubting the recovery though as Dr. Scally is a genius. however, by your own reasoning, you recover way better without PCT than with, so surely this study goes against your theory?
> 
> ...


Everything I read with regard to PCT makes sense when you put it in context and read the scientific literature it is based upon. Despite this I did not recover when using PCT, it makes no sense and it seems probable to me that this may be due to some factor other than PCT?

Whatever the answer time is the only thing that will ensure recovery. I reckon that in my years of "use" I have spent around 10% of my time using steroids, this I believe is the main reason I have (in the past) recovered easily and to a good level


----------



## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

mrmasive said:


> the point is recovery is possible whilst using test!


No offence man, but this statement is not true, looking at your blood work it suggests that you are not recovered.

Remember the title says this "100% proof it is possible to recover while still using AAS"

This statement isn't true either, it would have been more accurate if it said something like this: "blood work suggests that some recovery is possible with these medications".

Or if you said, your wife got pregnant using this protocol, but your wife isn't pregnant and until she is you cant make that claim.



mrmasive said:


> No wanting to be rude here but i don't give a fcuk what you have heard or if the levels are only influenced by meds if i get my wife pregnant. Show me evidence that anything a guy takes has a directly negative effect on the baby because i can't find any. Having said that i generally read your stuff because it if informative.


I was not rude with you, I was merely pointing out the fact that exogenous testosterone will show as testosterone in tests, and that even using exogenous administration of testosterone with the use of HCG you will still be producing endogenous testosterone and will show in tests.

If you dropped everything right now, your numbers would look really bad.

Also, I never said I had evidence of any negative effect on a baby with the use of drugs.

But, if something does not go right and your child is compromised, I bet you just might feel a tad bit bad about the whole situation right?

Not wanting this to happen but dude, we are trying to be helpful and not flaming at all, you and Joe took it out of context and suggested we were not ready for this new concept of recovery.

If it works, it works, if it doesn't, it doesn't, in the end we all will know for sure.

*I may have sounded harsh here, but I have a child with disabilities and it isn't fun, just so you know why I am in the position I am in ok?*



mrmasive said:


> In hindsight, was it worth sharing?


Why not share information?

Of course all information is worth sharing, but saying 100% proof isn't proof at all.

Then you and Joe come off as quite defensive and attack.


----------



## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

jw007 said:


> My skinny mate on here* mrmasive:lol:* :lol: has been abusing gear, cruising and blasting for some time time now, I would suggest more of a constant blast than a cruise TBH:lol: :lol: :lol:
> 
> Long story short, he and wifey want a baby, so he put together (with my help of course:whistling a 10 week PCT plan to recover as much as poss to enable babymaking while still remaining on AAS etc etc
> 
> ...


Just out of curiosity, and coming from a boring uneducated natty, approximately how much would all that stuff cost to run?


----------



## Lois_Lane (Jul 21, 2009)

Dtlv74 said:


> Just out of curiosity, and coming from a boring uneducated natty, approximately how much would all that stuff cost to run?


Not that much when compared to a few nights out on the town.


----------



## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Snip:

Triptorelin acetate is a potent LHRH agonist. After a transient increase, *continuous administration results in downregulation of LH and FSH levels* followed by a suppression of ovarian and testicular steroid biosynthesis.

Correct me if I am wrong, but wouldnt this be counter productive if used for extended periods of time?

Another snip from chemicalland:

SAFETY

HAZARD NOTES

Toxic, May impair fertility

Or this:

*After chronic, continuous administration, this agent effects sustained decreases in LH and FSH production and testicular and ovarian steroidogenesis. Serum testosterone concentrations may fall to levels typically observed in surgically castrated men *(http://www.cancer.gov/)

Ummmm

Ok, not wanting to sound like I am stiff necked, but isnt this drug used to treat men with prostate cancer to slow the growth of cancer by chemically casterating men?

10 weeks seems like a long time to me.

Please correct me if I am wrong.

http://www.chemicalland21.com/specialtychem/nd/TRIPTORELIN%20ACETATE.htm

http://www.prostate-cancer.org.uk/pdf/toolkit/triptorelin.pdf

Snip:

However, if you take triptorelin for a long

period of time, it may take several months

after you finish treatment for the side effects

to stop.

Snip

Loss of sex drive and erectile dysfunction

Between three and four out of every ten men

(30% - 40%) taking triptorelin have problems

getting and keeping an erection. Some men

also lose their desire for sex (libido). These

side effects usually start within the first month

of treatment. Normal function and sensation

should return a few weeks or months after

you stop treatment.


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

Lois_Lane said:


> Not that much when compared to a few nights out on the town.


Ha, I don't doubt it with how much a drink in a club costs nowadays... mind you I can't afford that either right now.

Just curious as to how much it costs to run something like that.


----------



## ba baracuss (Apr 26, 2004)

Nice to see this kind of stuff on here.

I would take heed of what Dutch Scott says, in that none of the readings given indicate sperm motility/quality. Miscarriages ain't fun.

I was also wondering why naltrexone was used because as I understand it, it's not for recovery but prevention.


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## tuna_man (Nov 24, 2009)

dutch_scott said:


> *1* *genetic. a very good consultant has seen results which contradict above.*
> 
> *2 **nope. bump proviron up to 250-350mg . made a huge difference in sperm readings when i was last tested before my hmg shots which was 5 weeks before we conceived first ovulation*.


Point 1: results which contradict what? that some people recover really well while others get shut down really hard? how can anyhting contradict this, as it takes into account both possibilities. Either contradict the fact that shutdown is hard, or recovery is easy. Both cannot be contradicted by one thing as they are opposites, it makes no sense.

Point 2: Again i dont get it. you got tested before hmg and proviron, then 5 weeks after hmg and proviron and sperm quality was better? If i understand correctly, how can this be due to the proviron, when hmg was also added at the same time? Its a lot more plausible that the HMG increased the quality, as it contains FSH and LH, which help produce sperm. LH acts at Leydig cells to produce INTRATESTICULAR test, which is like a fertiliser to sperms, and fsh acts at sertoli cells, which sort of nurse the sperms.

Even in real world medical practice proviron isnt used at 250-300mg. And were talking recovery etc. Proviron isnt some magical chemical. Its just DHT with a methyl group on carbon 1. DHT also suppresses the hypothalamus and pituitary, whether you like it or not its a fact.

Bottom line, Its not that hard to become fertile, but dont go passing off a fancy cocktail of stuff as 100% proof of recovery, when nothing of the sort is shown by the blood tests. You can use gear for a year straight and still be fertile if you use hmg and hcg. This doesnt in any way mean your body is recovered. You are simply supplementing for the actions of the hormones it has stopped producing.


----------



## mrmasive (Dec 30, 2005)

Can't be bothered to pick out and reply to posts - sorry guys. Take it for what it is, actual proof that you can achieve recovery in terms of greatly i(think LH & FSH) whilst using Test despite what most say. Test level has nothing to do with being able to have a baby :rolleyes

I'm not being defensive lol. You guys really are missing the point, in only 10 weeks, 10 weeks, 10 weeks, my levels went from practically zero to within normal range....

I'm not interested in "you can recover on only HCG" or sh1te like that. Maybe you can but i bet the results will not be anywhere near as good as what i have achieved within 10 weeks if using only HCG.


----------



## mrmasive (Dec 30, 2005)

Jimmy said:


> yarp
> 
> i hear you like em big, hairy and green now days


Bodypaint and we are there


----------



## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

mrmasive said:


> Can't be bothered to pick out and reply to posts - sorry guys. Take it for what it is, actual proof that you can achieve recovery in terms of greatly i(think LH & FSH) whilst using Test despite what most say. Test level has nothing to do with being able to have a baby :rolleyes
> 
> I'm not being defensive lol. You guys really are missing the point, in only 10 weeks, 10 weeks, 10 weeks, my levels went from practically zero to within normal range....
> 
> I'm not interested in "you can recover on only HCG" or sh1te like that. Maybe you can but i bet the results will not be anywhere near as good as what i have achieved within 10 weeks if using only HCG.


*WHILE USING TEST*

which basically fcks ups all everybodys bullsh1t PCT advice which states "you have to wait for aas to be ouut system until PCT can begin"

which we have proven is bollox

Or does it not matter that LH & FSH and sperm count and motility all went up drastically in only 10 weeks

Bare in mind, He has been blast cruising for a few years, and by normal "sheep" mindesets apparently it usually takes months

I think maybe some people have issue with fact that that have limited knowledge on some of more exoctic compounds used, so get in defense mode as makes their previous postings perhaps of less value..


----------



## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

Dtlv74 said:


> Ha, I don't doubt it with how much a drink in a club costs nowadays... mind you I can't afford that either right now.
> 
> Just curious as to how much it costs to run something like that.


TBH cost would depned on who you knew

Some of stuff is quite hard to come by, so if sourcing from a newbie perspective prob pretty damn expensive, if add in HMG which is also costly then cost soars

If have some good contacts thne would say cost maybe price of a half decent course??? perhaps

A few kind folk donated to mrmasive in interest of science, clearly wasted on most on here


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Hmmm, Scally's guys recovered in just 6 weeks, all within normal FSH, LH and testosterone ranges doing before and after blood tests to prove it.

Proof will be in the pudding, when she gets pregnant.

strange that Clomid after just 5 to 7 days doubles LH output and elivates FSH by up to 50% @ 100mg ED.

10 weeks where his LH is below lower end of normal, and his FSH is very bottom range of normal is not even close to recovering.

I think it is worth a mention that his testosterone levels were higher before he started....lol

Following Scallys protocol I would suggest his numbers would be normal and better than this protocol only after 6 weeks.

But, keep us informed, give us a shout when she becomes pregnant.

Seriously, I would drop the Triptorelin Acetate, do some more reading on that one.


----------



## brownie (Jul 6, 2006)

my wife conceive 90 days after my PCT. which consisted of hcg, clomid, nolva and proviron. i did a blood and semen test which came back normal. my cycle was at least 4 months long with a gram of test e p/w + D-BOL Prop etc.

yes we did IVF but this was so my wife could be treated for an Autoimmune condition which resulted in miscarriages (8 in total)

PCT does work


----------



## tuna_man (Nov 24, 2009)

jw007 said:


> Or does it not matter that LH & FSH and sperm count and motility *all went up drastically* in only 10 weeks


No offence jw, but i would hardly call the changes in lh and fsh drastic increases.

Even many guys who come off completely and use no pct whatsoever will still have higher lh and fsh than the ones you posted.

Hell, even on a cycle people still maintain some hpta function (dose and duration dependent), and have higher lh and fsh e.g. on a dbol/tbol cycle.

So i do not see what there is to be proud of. You are targeting recovery from angles that contradict each other. E.g. using hcg to signal to the nuts, but also expecting the hypothalamus and pituitary to recognise a test deficit by using clomid when test and hcg are being used all along. Makes no sense whatsoever.

I applaud you for thinking outside the box, but you cannot seriously put forward any scientific theory whatsoever and expect everyone to blindly agree with you. This is the whole point of science, a successful theory/protocol must be able to withstand criticism. If criticism wasnt allowed, where would science be? Does that mean I can claim anything I want e.g. that aliens brought life to earth, and not have anybody question my evidence????

Oh BTW, Your mate has spelt his username wrong. The last time I checked, it should be spelt MASSIVE not MASIVE


----------



## mrmasive (Dec 30, 2005)

tuna_man said:


> No offence jw, but i would hardly call the changes in lh and fsh drastic increases.
> 
> Even many guys who come off completely and use no pct whatsoever will still have higher lh and fsh than the ones you posted.
> 
> ...


So what? Why do you keep referring to other people and what their levels are/have been?? My levels started at zero.

Mr M. A. Sive

make sense now?


----------



## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

tuna_man said:


> No offence jw, but i would hardly call the changes in lh and fsh drastic increases.
> 
> Even many guys who come off completely and use no pct whatsoever will still have higher lh and fsh than the ones you posted.
> 
> ...


Look, The point was however successfull or not, HE WAS ON FCKIN TEST THE WHOLE TIME

ARe you people missing this point??????

Im sure it would have been vastly more successful without test

And I guarantee if we added HMG results would have been far superior

But the point was IT IS possible when using AAS, do you disagree???


----------



## mrmasive (Dec 30, 2005)

hackskii said:


> Hmmm, *Scally's guys recovered in just 6 weeks, all within normal FSH, LH* and testosterone ranges doing before and after blood tests to prove it.
> 
> Proof will be in the pudding, when she gets pregnant.
> 
> ...


What is your point? What were their levels to begin with? Post the results for all the see.

My test levels were higher first time round because i had not long finished my cycle

lol

Post it here then so everyone reading can see what should be done, i wouldn't want to feel responsible for hampering anyones recovery :thumbup1:


----------



## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

hackskii said:


> Hmmm, Scally's guys recovered in just 6 weeks, all within normal FSH, LH and testosterone ranges doing before and after blood tests to prove it.
> 
> Proof will be in the pudding, when she gets pregnant.
> 
> ...


SO you saying clomid does that to nuts anyway, whether on aas or not??

So why advise guys to come off then???

Following Scally dudes protocol woul dhe have to come off aas??

Which FFS was the whole point:confused1: :confused1:


----------



## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

jw007 said:


> Look, The point was however successfull or not, HE WAS ON FCKIN TEST THE WHOLE TIME
> 
> ARe you people missing this point??????
> 
> ...


Seems pretty clear to me, that despite being supressed by the test this protocol allowed for a modest recovery.

Being on test is obviously not going to allow total recovery, but that's not even a debate I don't think.

Interesting thread :thumbup1:


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## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

Are you guys in a world of your own??

1) This was a trial run

2) we had no idea outcome

3) we never ever stated it would out perform same PCT without AAS

4) The guy did not want ti get his missus pregnant at this time, when time comes evaluations will be made

5) Lets call it "signficant improvement" was made running a complex PCT while continuing use of AAS ,Is that better????

and finally

6) how the fck does anyone know if that was not fully recoverd or not?? perhaps he has low sperm count ordinarily, some people do, perhaps hid FSH and LH are naturally low, who the fck knows

We know its poss to get people pregant on aas

I had 2 birds pergnat on AAS before

Last one which actually had I was on 1g test and 1g tren a week, and she had polysistic ovaries which makes it even more impressive


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## tuna_man (Nov 24, 2009)

jw007 said:


> SO you saying clomid does that to nuts anyway, whether on aas or not??


Nowhere at all did hackskii say it does this whether on steroids or not. You are misreading and misrepresenting peoples posts, just to confuse the topic.

It isnt a recovery when you are completely bypassing every step of the body's physiology. Bloods and studies of people actively on dbol would still have higher lh and fsh levels than your mates.

BTW You still havent told us where 'mrmasive' learnt to spell his user name .. lol


----------



## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

Dtlv74 said:


> Seems pretty clear to me, that despite being supressed by the test this protocol allowed for a modest recovery.
> 
> Being on test is obviously not going to allow total recovery, but that's not even a debate I don't think.
> 
> Interesting thread :thumbup1:


Finally

someone understands:thumb:


----------



## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

tuna_man said:


> Nowhere at all did hackskii say it does this whether on steroids or not. You are misreading and misrepresenting peoples posts, just to confuse the topic.
> 
> so why is he quoting it whenthe guy was on aas all time which was whole point
> 
> ...


----------



## mrmasive (Dec 30, 2005)

hackskii said:


> No offence man, but this statement is not true, looking at your blood work it suggests that you are not recovered.
> 
> Remember the title says this "100% proof it is possible to recover while still using AAS"
> 
> ...


You are going to have to expand on this a little more because dose and duration aside, the only difference between what i did and what you advise for PCT is the addition of Trip ace, forget the Test becuase i would think hundreds of guys have had healthy babies whilst using Test.......


----------



## mrmasive (Dec 30, 2005)

tuna_man said:


> Nowhere at all did hackskii say it does this whether on steroids or not. You are misreading and misrepresenting peoples posts, just to confuse the topic.
> 
> It isnt a recovery when you are completely bypassing every step of the body's physiology. Bloods and studies of people actively on dbol would still have higher lh and fsh levels than your mates.
> 
> *BTW You still havent told us where 'mrmasive' learnt to spell his user name* .. lol


You really are a douche...........but for the record it's a few posts back


----------



## tuna_man (Nov 24, 2009)

Jw, check out ubject 3 and 6 who are actively on dbol, and have low test levels, yet their lh is a lot more than mrmasive.

And Mr Masive, why do you feel the need to try to be offensive in your posts because i dont agree with you or jw (not that some internet insult is gonna make me lose sleep)? isnt that the point of a forum?


----------



## tuna_man (Nov 24, 2009)

mrmasive said:


> Mr M. A. Sive
> 
> make sense now?


LMAO you being serious? you couldnt put dots into your username though? nice try at a comeback :lol: :lol:


----------



## mrmasive (Dec 30, 2005)

tuna_man said:


> *Jw, check out ubject 3 and 6 who are actively on dbol, and have low test levels, yet their lh is a lot more than mrmasive*.
> 
> And Mr Masive, why do you feel the need to try to be offensive in your posts because i dont agree with you or jw (not that some internet insult is gonna make me lose sleep)? isnt that the point of a forum? I think you should grow up before trying for a baby at least.


But what the fcuk has someone elses levels being higher got to do with anything or more to the point, me or this thread?? Think outside of you own little world......please.....

i'm just bringing myself down to your level. It's a user name, nothing more


----------



## tuna_man (Nov 24, 2009)

That werent for you, it was for jw. He asked to see a study showing lh while on dbol, so I got him one just to prove i am not making sh1t up. Look back a few posts to where he asks for one. Otherwise i wouldnt have bothered


----------



## tuna_man (Nov 24, 2009)

To quote jw: Can you post these peoples result and what they took please

So i did post them, and now you are asking why i posted them?


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## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

tuna_man said:


> *Jw, check out ubject 3 and 6 who are actively on dbol, and have low test levels, yet their lh is a lot more than mrmasive.*
> 
> And Mr Masive, why do you feel the need to try to be offensive in your posts because i dont agree with you or jw (not that some internet insult is gonna make me lose sleep)? isnt that the point of a forum? I think you should grow up before trying for a baby at least.


Yes TBH i dont think AAS shuts down every one in same manner

I have always been of that opinion, some recover faster than others, some never recover

I actually believe by well timed fast acting test shots and orals you can get away with never actually effecting HPTA to a great extent, but thats another debate

Point was MM started at zero after running some pretty high dose courses over a long period of time and without coming off made some signifivcnat improvement to all readings

As also stated, when running HMG we would prob have expected another 50% increase at least...

And bear in mind, sperm takes 70 days to mature, so if continued for another few weeks and got sperm viability agian tested we would suggest readings would agian be more impressive..

We are not disagreeing with you on poss could be better, was only to see if was possible while running AAS which 99% of people think you cant

Our own imperical date suggest you can


----------



## Lois_Lane (Jul 21, 2009)

How would you run the HMG along side the HCG?

Some thing like this perhaps "Infertile men with hypogonadotropic hypogonadism can be successfully treated by hCG (3 x 2000 U/week for 2 months) followed by hCG + hMG (3 x 150 U/week). Previous androgen therapy will not affect their responsiveness. "?

BTW i think this is a superb thread i was just being a dick commenting on the actual title lol.

This is also interesting "The increase in testicular volume and of sperm count was achieved more rapidly in the GnRH group than in the hMG group (28). In case of a lack of response to hMG, the administration of growth hormone (3 x 4 U/week) could increase the sensitivity of the gonads to hMG, according to an uncontrolled study (30). "


----------



## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

Lois_Lane said:


> How would you run the HMG along side the HCG?
> 
> Some thing like this perhaps "Infertile men with hypogonadotropic hypogonadism can be successfully treated by hCG (3 x 2000 U/week for 2 months) followed by hCG + hMG (3 x 150 U/week). Previous androgen therapy will not affect their responsiveness. "?
> 
> ...


was prob going to run 1500iu hcg along side 150iu hmg for 1st few weeks then re-evaluate

If got it was going to discuss with M best way we should run he pretty keen\clued up on that

But some on way so will have a think

what you suggested is interesting tho..

How would you have used to cycle?

Dutch scott only needed 5 shots of 150iu HMG to get super sperms


----------



## Lois_Lane (Jul 21, 2009)

jw007 said:


> was prob going to run 1500iu hcg along side 150iu hmg for 1st few weeks then re-evaluate
> 
> If got it was going to discuss with M best way we should run he pretty keen\clued up on that
> 
> ...


See i am trying to work out the most effective method of using my HMG mind i only have 5 amps but its 75iu not 150iu:cursing:

I got that info from here ... http://www.gfmer.ch/Books/Reproductive_health/Endocrine_pathology.html

It certainly blows that BS about only needing low dose HCG out of the water.

The reason most people are failing their pct's (which i realize is not the topic at hand but still) is they are using too little pct meds for too short a duration of time its just that simple IMO.


----------



## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

Lois_Lane said:


> See i am trying to work out the most effective method of using my HMG mind i only have 5 amps but its 75iu not 150iu:cursing:
> 
> I got that info from here ... http://www.gfmer.ch/Books/Reproductive_health/Endocrine_pathology.html
> 
> ...


From what I can gather 150iu a time is a much more effective dose..

Low dose HCG i find is great sub-q for maintaining ball size when on course

But to get things working properly for a PCT type thing, I def think min would be regular 1500iu shots

I know some who have shocked system with 5000iu and done ok

I have shot 5000iu years ago when PCT didnt exist and after a course you **** 5000 or 1500iu every 3 days for 5 shots

Cant say noticed any aromatisation????

I knew one huge dude years ago who use HCG instead of aas to grow, fck knows how that worked, but he was big..and a loon:lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## Old but not out (Sep 8, 2009)

Lois_Lane said:


> See i am trying to work out the most effective method of using my HMG mind i only have 5 amps but its 75iu not 150iu:cursing:
> 
> I got that info from here ... http://www.gfmer.ch/Books/Reproductive_health/Endocrine_pathology.html
> 
> ...


Great link - reps


----------



## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

The doses are what the endo doctors use to determine secondary hypogonadism.

Here are two PDF's, one is Scallys which was posted a couple of pages ago that shows before blood work, after blood work, increase in muscle mas % and body fat loss.

Look at how they determine or conclude hypogonadism as this is an endo guide.

Look what happened in just 6 weeks to their numbers, and they used deca which is a super supressive compound.

Genetic has an artilcle of his PCT after not being able to recover, he used HMG and things started popping.

Lots of good information here, lets not ruin it by making things personal.

I am open to new ideas, yet the claim on this one on paper does not add compaired to Scallys protocol that happened to have 100% recovery in far less time.

I am also showing a chart post cycle no PCT and look at week 10 (same as you), LH is off the chart with no intervention at all.

Also a clomid PDF on elderly men and after 8 weeks of clomid they had a 198% increase in the elderly men for testosterone.

I am not going to go into my daughters genetic defect she is an XXX child and they are doing research on her every two years at the Institute of Health in Washington DC.

They pay our airfair and accomidations.

hypogonadism.pdf

ScallyVergelAstractHPGA.pdf

clomid study.pdf


----------



## mrmasive (Dec 30, 2005)

hackskii said:


> The doses are what the endo doctors use to determine secondary hypogonadism.
> 
> Here are two PDF's, one is Scallys which was posted a couple of pages ago that shows before blood work, after blood work, increase in muscle mas % and body fat loss.
> 
> ...


No no sorry, you have misunderstod my question. I am keen to know why you think what i have ran for PCT has increased the chances of having a child with disabilities because as i pointed out before, dose and duration a side, all i have done differently is added in some Trip


----------



## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Well, ok lets be honest here, you are running Naltrexone (10 weeks), Triptorelin Acetate (10 weeks), Nolva (10 weeks, look at the sides of this one by itself), proviron (10 weeks), Clomid (10 weeks), HCG (10 weeks).

10 weeks happens to be a long time for some of those meds like clomid for instance causing potential for occular toxcicity, not even considering that nolva causes cancer of the uterus which happens to be the same development tissues as the prostate, I can go on about drug interactions but you probably would shrug that off.

If there was just a 1% chance of birth defects from that coctail of drugs, would you still want to take that chance?

I have to go but I will look up some stuff tomorrow, nolva is considered a junk drug, one reason I hate it when guys take it throughout the cycle then in PCT.

I am not against cutting edge thought, far be it from me to stop anyone moving this sport fwd.


----------



## tuna_man (Nov 24, 2009)

hackskii said:


> Lots of good information here, lets not ruin it by making things personal.
> 
> I am open to new ideas, yet the claim on this one on paper does not add compaired to Scallys protocol that happened to have 100% recovery in far less time.
> 
> ...


Nice links Scott :thumbup1:

Fairplay to you jw and mrmasive for being cutting edge and thinking out of the box, this sort of stuff is what causes bodybuilding to evolve.

Please dont be offended by the construcive criticism, i apologise for any offence.

However, i still think that 'if it aint broke dont fix it'. There are proven methods of recovering. Overcomplicating things just to use a wee bit of test and getting a vastly inferior 'recovery' (if at all) doesnt make sense, when doing the tried and tested 45day pct, or something similar, hell even clomid, would give better results.

The best way I can try to explain what im saying is it is like trying to dry yourself with a flannel while standing under a shower on full power. It is completely pointless as you will still be pretty wet as long as the shower is on.

And Scott was under no obligation to share any of his personal information about his child with you, but he still did, and that takes a man with a big heart.

As he said, even if there is a 1% chance of birth defects, hell even a 0.1% chance from the vast array of drugs, is this a risk you would really want to take in exchange for the health of your child?

Theres a lot more to life than staying on steroids, and bodybuilding doesnt last forever, please remember that.

Yours in good faith, and not to offend you


----------



## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

dutch_scott said:


> true cant find the thread on here..james ls thread..wr is it?
> 
> such gd advise and backed up my my endo consultant
> 
> ...


you did turn into a rom com watcher for a while there on clomid mate:lol: :lol:


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## tuna_man (Nov 24, 2009)

dutch_scott said:


> only using my own daughter but yes


WTF mate i dont understand. Im sure you wouldnt be saying that if any child of yours was affected, and you knew what it involved


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Dutch Scot did ask for my help and I did in fact give him my input.

He did follow my protocol I suggested and added some stuff he felt was needed and he did in fact have success.

But we are veering out of the scope of the thread.

Id love to give my thoughts but honestly I dont feel they will fall on open ears.

Its like the thread is divided between procreation between PCT and being on full time and getting one pregnant.

Its like the blast and cruise threads vs. PCT threads.

Look, for the record if you guys want to do what ever it is you want to, so be it. but excluding common sense, it would be wise for those learning to subject yourselves to others input, especially in the light of more information is more knowledge.

There is not one other guy that has helped othes recover other than me.

With that said, I dont care if you use other protocols or not, in the end it is all about recovery.

My track record speaks for itself.

If you dont want my input regardless if it is worth while or not then just ask......

Life is about information and good decisions, along with resources to draw apon, if one decides they are to privvy to others knowledge then that one will suffer from ego driven limited information due to lack of knowledge due to ego.

I my friends am here to help, not directed to influence other than being helpful, the day I start being overly oppionated and cant flow with the go, I am gone.

I understand the proticol at hand, I understand why, but what I dont understand is why someone would have an oppinion when one is not of that of success.....

Consider me stupid, but numbers tell all, and in this thread, numbers speak but nobody is listening.


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## Lois_Lane (Jul 21, 2009)

So Scott are you still a firm believer in the POWER pct?

I found it good but honestly never did blood tests to see where i was at.

I intend on taking a longer break as in over 6 months at the end of April and intend on running it again but perhaps longer considering Dutch's experience....

Actually i do have a proper question.

Lets say i do the POWER pct 2500iu hcg for 8 shots over 16 days 30 days clomid at 100mg and 45 days 20mg nolva, how long after i drop the nolva should i test my levels to show if my body is holding its levels???


----------



## StephenC (Sep 2, 2007)

Reps to both MrMasive and JW for posting this:thumb:

One of the thing that irritates me most when researching anything is the lack of data on the type or protocols we are using, ie blast cruise, shic etc etc

Here we have two guys who have went out of their way to post results for an experiment that was done for nothing more than MrMasive's own personal benefit yet they have shared this info with the forum:beer:

Whether you agree with thier conclusions or not there is a lot to be taken from the protocol they have used.

Would it have been more effective without the use of the prop, undoubtedly, however was this not the whole point of the trial:confused1:

I am not the most clued up guy on recovery protocols or endocrinology however I have learnt a lot about it just from reading this thread

I would like to see someone run a similar protocol without the use of prop and compare the results. I would also be interested to see the results when the HMG is added and the results when the protocol is extended.

I would like to think that at some point in my life I would like to have kids and if I could do this without having to go through an extended and depressing PCT and off period then I thank both these guys for sharing however I have no doubt that someone will take this protocol and make some changes and improve it and surely thats how we all advance, so can we take it all down a notch and sensibly discuss the topic without dragging this into a spelling bee about someone's username:thumbup1:


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## tuna_man (Nov 24, 2009)

hackskii said:


> nobody is listening.


Hacks, as you said, its up to each individual what they do, and this thread has become somewhat confused, using a recovery that in fact completely side steps every natural step in the body's own axis, and then saying its not about recovery but having kids. Why even call it recovery then, just chuck in hcg and hmg like the doctors give to people who cannot produce their own gonadotrophins for reasons other than steroid use, and after 2-3 months the sperms will have developed.

On a personal note, i remember the name hackskii because I have followed many of your posts on other forums such as Mesomorphosis around 2 years ago when I had my own issues they helped me so much. This isnt about ass kissing or anything, but I have learnt a great deal from your posts, and im sure you wont lose any sleep over this thread if people arent listening.


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## tuna_man (Nov 24, 2009)

dutch_scott said:


> dude thats a mute point stop being a tool and playing devils with EVERYTHING i write, and you know you are.


dutch_scott, the only thing was I didnt agree that it was a proper recovery, thats all, and il still stand by that.

I am not here to be a pain in the ass, so please accept my apologies if i did come across as one. Its all in the spirit of science and advancing all of our knowledge, and the validity of science theories all depend on people posing challeges to them.

sorry once again if it came across a bit aggressive, we have all learnt a lot in this thread its just not the way i would do it,

Other than that no im not in the army, and im getting laid tomorrow - as many times as I want / she can manage 

Peace


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## TaintedSoul (May 16, 2007)

Very interesting thread, I hope to see more when it comes near the real one and see if this all worked out ok for you Mrmassive.



dutch_scott said:


> jw i did see some lovely work in that recovery/fertitlity!!
> 
> i ran 300mg proviron+ and worked
> 
> ...


mmmm would she have miscarried if you had never touched AAS. My mother miscarried twice before before I finally made it through. And my father has never touched AAS?

I'm about to venture down this baby making path so I need to be very careful nothing fvcks up otherwise the first blame goes against me and steroid use!! :confused1:



hackskii said:


> But, lets not forget with the use of HCG the testicles will still be producing testosterone outside of the 50mg a week or E4D with the prop.
> 
> Serum test would mean nothing with exo and endo working to skew the tests.
> 
> ...


My fiance has asked me over and over again about will our baby be healthy. I was adamant that it will as I havent heard of anyone proving otherwise. Though I wasnt aware of your childs situation. And like you say... you might always wonder.

My plan is still stop everything mid April. Been on since beginning of October. :confused1:

And then get her pregnant ASAP. I was going to just run usual PCT meds and some proviron? Need to look into HMG though perhaps?? :confused1: :confused1:


----------



## mrmasive (Dec 30, 2005)

hackskii said:


> Dutch Scot did ask for my help and I did in fact give him my input.
> 
> He did follow my protocol I suggested and added some stuff he felt was needed and he did in fact have success.
> 
> ...


Dude get over yourself FFS! No one is trying to claim they are the bestist PCT advice giver in the whole wide world PMSL

It was a fcuking experiment that no one can deny showed RECOVERY while still using AAS. Recovered is different but recovery was achieved and could have continued.

The point you made about this could potentially cause me to had a disabled child i feel was pulled out of the air to try and scare peoiple or just to try and convince others reading it is flawed when your reply was based on no fact at all. I'm not having a "pop" at you or do i "shrug" information because as i have already posted - on this thread - you do post some very good information.

Please take it for what it is, nothing more because it's getting blown way out of context.


----------



## mrmasive (Dec 30, 2005)

StephenC said:


> Reps to both MrMasive and JW for posting this:thumb:
> 
> One of the thing that irritates me most when researching anything is the lack of data on the type or protocols we are using, ie blast cruise, shic etc etc
> 
> ...


Get me the stuff and i'll do it starting in June 

Amen to that brother

:thumb:


----------



## mrmasive (Dec 30, 2005)

TaintedSoul said:


> Very interesting thread, I hope to see more when it comes near the real one and see if this all worked out ok for you Mrmassive.
> 
> mmmm would she have miscarried if you had never touched AAS. My mother miscarried twice before before I finally made it through. And my father has never touched AAS?
> 
> ...


Me too and if anyone has got proper clinical evidence then please share it. The fact is no one knows and we are all taking a gamble popping any fcuking med, fcuk me look at the side effects from taking too much Vit C!!!!

My wife belives that disabled children are only had by special people, those that can devote thier lives to giving them the care they need, a kind of gift if you like becuase in return they get unconditional love and a deeper relationship than from any other child 

Back on a soft tissue repair cycle now. My intentions are to start a PCT again in June so i can bring my levels up to within the normal range by September and then come off all meds (thats the intention) and just keep at it :lol:


----------



## mrmasive (Dec 30, 2005)

tuna_man said:


> Nice links Scott :thumbup1:
> 
> Fairplay to you jw and mrmasive for being cutting edge and thinking out of the box, this sort of stuff is what causes bodybuilding to evolve.
> 
> ...


The point at which you actually offended me was implying i could not spell 'massive'

Pr1ck!

(joke) :lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## brownie (Jul 6, 2006)

please show me where AAS use can cause miscarriages,.. my wife had 4 prior to me ever doing a steriod cycle... 1 in 4 pregnancy's end in miscarriages..

great thread tho...

i really do see the whole point of this was to see if lh and fsh can be raised while on aas, and i think they proved that it can... this was never about recovering fully...


----------



## Nytol (Jul 16, 2005)

There seems to be a lot of bollocks and 'opinion' spoken like fact on here.

There is absolutely zero evidence that using AAS causes any deformities in children, my 4 year old daughter is perfect in every way, bigger than average, more intelligent than average, and healthier than average.

Stop talking $hit, and causing people to worry with no evidence, either scientific or anecdotal to back it up.


----------



## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Lois_Lane said:


> So Scott are you still a firm believer in the POWER pct?
> 
> I found it good but honestly never did blood tests to see where i was at.
> 
> ...


Firm believer yes, providing that nothing was done during the cycle to keep or maintain testicular function, or the cycle was a long one, or use of supressive drugs like Deca.

4 to 6 weeks would be a good idea to wait as nolva takes time to clear the body, and negativly effects SHBG, so free test might be compromised some.

I took low dose proviron post PCT (50mg ED) for this reason and I rather liked the effects. I personally felt it helped some, might have been placebo or not but I did feel better.



Nytol said:


> There seems to be a lot of bollocks and 'opinion' spoken like fact on here.
> 
> There is absolutely zero evidence that using AAS causes any deformities in children, my 4 year old daughter is perfect in every way, bigger than average, more intelligent than average, and healthier than average.
> 
> Stop talking $hit, and causing people to worry with no evidence, either scientific or anecdotal to back it up.


If this was directed at me please quote me where I said steroids influence deformities. I never said it and it really was in refrence to a mix of drugs that are not steroids that I would be worried about.

Nolvadex is a known human carcinogen

Nolvadex has been shown to cause changes in the DNA of human cells, the first step in development of tumors.

I never said steroids cause birth defects, my point was that with all the drugs together there may be some interaction.

If I wanted to have a child, I would rather do it with nothing in my system and all the drugs gone, not try and use drugs for fertility unelss I needed them.


----------



## tuna_man (Nov 24, 2009)

Nytol said:


> There seems to be a lot of bollocks and 'opinion' spoken like fact on here.
> 
> There is absolutely zero evidence that using AAS causes any deformities in children, my 4 year old daughter is perfect in every way, bigger than average, more intelligent than average, and healthier than average.
> 
> Stop talking $hit, and causing people to worry with no evidence, either scientific or anecdotal to back it up.


Developmental deformities of an embryo occur while its in the mother's body (teratogenesis/teratology), so nothing the man uses cause developmental defects.

Saying that, however, if a deformed sperm was to fuse with the egg cell in the first place and the embryo was still viable, this can cause defects. Now it is highly unlikely that a deformed sperm will be the one that makes it to the egg (crap swimmers), but if it did then problems can occur. Anything that damages the sperms/ affects their development can lead to this, but it is extremely unlikely that it will happen, however not impossible.

I will ask a professor of embryology about this the next time I see him to get a proper answer.

On a side note, someone mentioned on muscular development, and its been alluded to by others, but does using steroids/past use increase the chances of having a female child?

Anecdotally it seems to be so, any thoughts


----------



## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

tuna_man said:


> On a side note, someone mentioned on muscular development, and its been alluded to by others, but does using steroids/past use increase the chances of having a female child?
> 
> Anecdotally it seems to be so, any thoughts


I have a female child.


----------



## tuna_man (Nov 24, 2009)

hackskii said:


> I have a female child.


So does Nytol, jw007, and dutch_scott...

So do some people I know who used gear ( as in have a daughter, or multiple daughters but rarely sons)

very strange coincidence?


----------



## warren (Jun 16, 2008)

tuna_man said:


> Developmental deformities of an embryo occur while its in the mother's body (teratogenesis/teratology), so nothing the man uses cause developmental defects.
> 
> Saying that, however, if a deformed sperm was to fuse with the egg cell in the first place and the embryo was still viable, this can cause defects. Now it is highly unlikely that a deformed sperm will be the one that makes it to the egg (crap swimmers), but if it did then problems can occur. Anything that damages the sperms/ affects their development can lead to this, but it is extremely unlikely that it will happen, however not impossible.
> 
> ...


interesting, can you explain any further on maybe why this would happen? i hope not i wanna by first :lol:


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## tuna_man (Nov 24, 2009)

warren_1987 said:


> interesting, can you explain any further on maybe why this would happen? i hope not i wanna by first :lol:


Dont exactly know why, I will also ask the embryology professor this.

A 'female' sperm has an X sex chromosome, while one that will produce a male has a Y sex chromosome. This is why the sex of a child is nothing to do with the egg which is always X, but the sperm.

Y sperms are ever so slightly lighter due to the Y chromosome being shorter/ having less genetic information. Also, different hormonal conditions may affect the sperms differently e.g. make it more likely for X sperms to survive and not be damaged, or make them better swimmers?

I will follow this up


----------



## hilly (Jan 19, 2008)

tuna_man said:


> So does Nytol, jw007, and dutch_scott...
> 
> So do some people I know who used gear ( as in have a daughter, or multiple daughters but rarely sons)
> 
> very strange coincidence?


I have read this alot altho there are exceptions.


----------



## tuna_man (Nov 24, 2009)

hilly said:


> I have read this alot altho there are exceptions.


Yes there will never be a 100% chance of having a daughter and there will be exceptions, but it just does seem anecdotally that there is a greater chance of having daughters versus the statistically-expected 50:50(1:1) ratio


----------



## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

tuna_man said:


> Dont exactly know why, I will also ask the embryology professor this.
> 
> A 'female' sperm has an X sex chromosome, while one that will produce a male has a Y sex chromosome. This is why the sex of a child is nothing to do with the egg which is always X, but the sperm.
> 
> ...


I think there is an old theory I read soemwhere that the efficiency of testosterone production in the testes at a given time (as regulated by luteinizing hormone) might also influence the motility of the male Y chromosome gamates/sperm in some way - I forget the details.

If true this suggests that a certain level of testosterone production produces man milk male tadpoles who can't swim as well as their sisters.

The article wasn;t talking about AAS use though, just methods of predicting/influencing embryo gender pre conception.

I will try and find the link again and post it up.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

My twin brother also has a girl and he did some cycles when he was younger about 4 years or so before she was born.

My daughter has xxx chromosome's.

An extra one, she is bigger than her normal siblings with a tiny bit lower IQ.

I have to keep a tutor twice a week to work with her so she can keep up with the class.

She is 10 years 110 pounds and 5 foot tall. Big girl really.


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## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

tuna_man said:


> Yes there will never be a 100% chance of having a daughter and there will be exceptions, but it just does seem anecdotally that there is a greater chance of having daughters versus the statistically-expected 50:50(1:1) ratio


Most of my steroid taking mates who have kids, at least 80% are girls

A few have boys, but not many at all

I think this is similar in people who indulge in a lot of rec drugs too


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

> The article wasn;t talking about AAS use though, just methods of predicting/influencing embryo gender pre conception.
> 
> I will try and find the link again and post it up.


Not the article I was thinking of but a better one. It suggests that "high concentrations of testosterone and estrogen increase the probablity of a son, and high concentrations of gonadotrophins and progesterone increase the probability of a daughter". As said, it doesn't specifically relate to AAS use but is kind of on topic...

http://humrep.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/reprint/deh245v1


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## Nytol (Jul 16, 2005)

hackskii said:


> If this was directed at me please quote me where I said steroids influence deformities. I never said it and it really was in refrence to a mix of drugs that are not steroids that I would be worried about.


If it was directly aimed at you I'd have addressed you directly, from what I read there were a few people jumping on the bandwagon.



tuna_man said:


> Developmental deformities of an embryo occur while its in the mother's body (teratogenesis/teratology), so nothing the man uses cause developmental defects.
> 
> Saying that, however, if a deformed sperm was to fuse with the egg cell in the first place and the embryo was still viable, this can cause defects.* Now it is highly unlikely that a deformed sperm will be the one that makes it to the egg *(crap swimmers), but if it did then problems can occur. Anything that damages the sperms/ affects their development can lead to this, but it is extremely unlikely that it will happen, however not impossible.


Exactly and IMO it would be next to impossible for a deformed or damaged sperm to reach the egg, it is not an easy journey for healthy swimmers as I'm sure you know.



tuna_man said:


> So does Nytol, jw007, and dutch_scott...
> 
> So do some people I know who used gear ( as in have a daughter, or multiple daughters but rarely sons)
> 
> very strange coincidence?


A very high % of the guys I know who have used, have daughters, my mate Justin is about the only exception with 2 boys.

Out of 8 people I am close to, there are 10 girls and 3 boys.


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

Was chatting to someone with a medical background earlier about this thing with lots of guys who've juiced fathering daughters, and she told me that it's a definite phenomenon in AAS users, longterm recreational drug users and also for those on many longterm medications.

One theory that she said they had for it, but was never actually tested to her knowledge, was that there wasn't actually a problem with Y chromosome sperm fertilzing the egg (that was still 50/50), the problem was seen to be sperm quality.

The speculation was that longterm alterations of hormones messes with the spermatogenesis mechanism and that creates weaker sperm all around (both X and Y), but because the X chromosome sperm are more robust, a higher percentage of them would carry less damaged dna. The eventual implication being that while the fertilization was 50/50, many of the Y chromosome fertilised eggs would not produce a valid embryo due to poor quality dna, and so many would be almost instantly aborted (within first two weeks) before the mother knew she was pregnant.

No idea about it but an interesting theory.


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## tuna_man (Nov 24, 2009)

Dtlv74 said:


> Was chatting to someone with a medical background earlier about this thing with lots of guys who've juiced fathering daughters, and she told me that it's a definite phenomenon in AAS users, longterm recreational drug users and also for those on many longterm medications.
> 
> One theory that she said they had for it, but was never actually tested to her knowledge, was that there wasn't actually a problem with Y chromosome sperm fertilzing the egg (that was still 50/50), the problem was seen to be sperm quality.
> 
> ...


That theory also make a lot of sense

:thumbup1:


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## Ashcrapper (Jul 3, 2008)

our kid has 2 girls, he was on gear for a while. same for a mate. just adding some more to the stats 

very interesting thread btw


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## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

Dtlv74 said:


> Was chatting to someone with a medical background earlier about this thing with lots of guys who've juiced fathering daughters, and she told me that it's a definite phenomenon in AAS users, longterm recreational drug users and also for those on many longterm medications.
> 
> One theory that she said they had for it, but was never actually tested to her knowledge, was that there wasn't actually a problem with Y chromosome sperm fertilzing the egg (that was still 50/50), the problem was seen to be sperm quality.
> 
> ...


That is pretty much word for word-ish what I was told by someone in medical profession,

except as im a meat head they simplified it with the weaker male (Y) carrying sperm against the stronger female (x) sperm:lol: :lol:


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## TaintedSoul (May 16, 2007)

Dtlv74 said:


> Was chatting to someone with a medical background earlier about this thing with lots of guys who've juiced fathering daughters, and she told me that it's a definite phenomenon in AAS users, longterm recreational drug users and also for those on many longterm medications.
> 
> One theory that she said they had for it, but was never actually tested to her knowledge, was that there wasn't actually a problem with Y chromosome sperm fertilzing the egg (that was still 50/50), the problem was seen to be sperm quality.
> 
> ...


Nice post. I started a poll a few years ago on here regarding this. My mate has two boys and did a few courses. Chap I work with did loads of AAS in his 20's and has about 5 sons. Then the poll on here showed most have daughters!!

So guess I better get used to pink, barbie dolls and everything that goes with them! :lol:


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## maccer (Jul 11, 2007)

any updates mrmassive?


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Hey Massive, have you concieved yet?

Its been from January 4th to September 26, or over 9 months have you gotten your child yet?


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## mrmasive (Dec 30, 2005)

hackskii said:


> Hey Massive, have you concieved yet?
> 
> Its been from January 4th to September 26, or over 9 months have you gotten your child yet?


Don't try and make me look like a cvnt! You're attention to detail is inadequate. See quote below (it's about the 5th post on this thread)



jw007 said:


> Now back running a course
> 
> I think idea was to do a test run to see if was feasable as want baby production to start around sept time
> 
> So he will do this again on lead up to baby boom:thumb:


What month are we in now??????

FYI we haven't started trying yet. Just moved into a new house and work and study commitments have been demading over the last few months and will continue to be so for the next month or so. Also, my wife will be getting a promotion within that time (wouldn't if pregnant) with a great benefits package inc full salary when on maternity leave so for the sake of 8-12 weeks it's worth waiting.


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## SD (Sep 3, 2004)

Dtlv74 said:


> Was chatting to someone with a medical background earlier about this thing with lots of guys who've juiced fathering daughters, and she told me that it's a definite phenomenon in AAS users, longterm recreational drug users and also for those on many longterm medications.
> 
> One theory that she said they had for it, but was never actually tested to her knowledge, was that there wasn't actually a problem with Y chromosome sperm fertilzing the egg (that was still 50/50), the problem was seen to be sperm quality.
> 
> ...


I wonder if the weak DNA could cause miscarriage later on too? My Mrs miscarried at 10 weeks, Dutch Scott said earlier in the thread, his Mrs had had several also? Is this common? anyone else experienced this?

If so we are all selfish [email protected], as going through that was hell for my Mrs. Perhaps we should wait until we are sure our sperm quality is good enough for a valid conception?

SD


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## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

hackskii said:


> Hey Massive, have you concieved yet?
> 
> Its been from January 4th to September 26, or over 9 months have you gotten your child yet?


lol

You either dont read his posts correctly (which IIRC was something to seemed to get upset with him over)

OR

You a doing a "littleChris":whistling:

I know which way im erring:whistling:


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

mrmasive said:


> Don't try and make me look like a cvnt!


Aw mate, I would never try and make you look any diffrent than you already do.

100% proof it is possible to recover on gear. :whistling:

The whole point was for parenthood. 

Well, I gotta say you really proved all of us wrong,with this one. :lol:

Keep up the good work, I will pass this coctail/protocol along to all the other dudes that are looking to get their wifes pregnant while on low dose TRT.

Id suggest this was a total success...............NOT. :confused1:


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## mrmasive (Dec 30, 2005)

hackskii said:


> Aw mate, I would never try and make you look any diffrent than you already do.


 :lol: i couldn't care less about your opinion of me so that was actually quite funny :lol:



hackskii said:


> 100% proof it is possible to recover on gear. :whistling:
> 
> 1) The whole point was for parenthood.
> 
> ...


Get over the fact that it's not the protocol you would advise, do your job as a moderator and put an end to the juvenile comments

:beer:


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Its not juvenile.

You were doing something.

You made sweaping comments that were unfounded.

Freedom of speech allows anyone to post constructive comments based on oppinion.

Yours came under scrutiny, you bitched about it, became defensive, and now call foul.

If your ideas can not be challenged then why post in the first place?

I learned two things from this thread.

1. That there is some degree of supression that can be avoided during a cycle (although perhaps dose and type of gear will change results).

2. Dont challenge anything you post as you will get defensive and call foul. :lol:


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## mrmasive (Dec 30, 2005)

hackskii said:


> When you want to recover, do not listen to guys that don't have a clue, and listen to those that have understanding.............
> 
> If this steps on MrMassives toes, then so be it, judging by his own user name says it all, not to mention of his avatar.
> 
> ...


^^ That's hardly constructive!

Do you mean 'sweeping'??

Where have i bitched? All the way through i have been questioning (with the exception of the odd humorous comment in reply to other post not by you) "the expert" that couldn't give me a straight answer. I even gave you a fcuking compliment!

I'm being defensive now because yet again you have made a personal attack!

Right, i'm off the the gym and will not be wasting anymore time on your dribble (i'm allowed to post that, right?)


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

mrmasive said:


> Tuna_man you really are a negative fishy minge!





mrmasive said:


> No wanting to be rude here but i don't give a fcuk what you have heard or if the levels are only influenced by meds if i get my wife pregnant.





mrmasive said:


> You really are a douche





mrmasive said:


> Back on a soft tissue repair cycle now. My intentions are to start a PCT again in June so i can bring my levels up to within the normal range by September and then come off all meds (thats the intention) and just keep at it


Just a question then.

Did you ever recover? :lol:

Oh, thanks for the compliment too mate, that was very nice of you.


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## mrmasive (Dec 30, 2005)

Quick conclusion of THE RESULTS from the actual baby making PCT i ran a year following this TRIAL just to put some closure on this.

As planned, a year later (January 2011) i ran the same PCT detailed at the start of this thread again with the intention of having a baby. After finishing, my wife and i began trying for a baby and we conceived 5 weeks later (April 2011). The pregnancy and birth were ideal text book and we now have an amazing 6 week old baby boy.

Perhaps someone else might be able to benefit from this as i have 

I will not be logging in again or checking for replies becuase i cannot be bothered. I just wanted to prove that a little bit of thinking outside the box WORKS!


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## Fatstuff (Mar 2, 2010)

Top news, thanks for letting us know the actual results


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## Mars (Aug 25, 2007)

Whats outside the box got do with anything? lots of guys conceive on cycle, all it has to do with is sperm quantity/motility, (there are only a couple of meds that may aid this) either a little swimmer will get through to an egg or won't, this is luck, not some miracle PCT.

However, congrats to you both.


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