# Keto Check



## Huntingground (Jan 10, 2010)

```
Cals        Fat (g)    Carbs (g)   Prot (g)

Total                                  3,093     173.6      21.1           337.9
```
Fat burners :- 100mg T3 and 160mcg Clen daily.

AAS :- 200mg Var/daily and 250mg Test/weekly.

Supps :- Fish oils, BCAAs and multivits

I have just added in cardio too, fasted and non-fasted. I only drink water (Mainly sparkling) and black coffee (about 1 cup a day).

4th Jan 258lbs

5th Jan 254lbs

6th Jan 252lbs

7th Jan 250lbs

8th Jan 248lbs

9th Jan 250lbs

10th Jan 250lbs

11th Jan 249lbs

12th Jan 248lbs

13th Jan 248lbs

14th Jan 248lbs

15th Jan 247lbs

I have just ordered some Ketostix to see whether I am in Ketosis.

Questions.

1.) - Thoughts on the above (I don't eat red or white meat so fish,eggs and cheese it is). I do throw in some veg too (mainly brocolli).

2.) - Should I have a refeed tonight or wait until I get my Ketostix to ensure that I am in Keto first.

3.) - I did 35 mins on the treadmill (BPM at 140) yesterday but felt really dizzy, lightheaded and ill afterwards. Is this down to the meds or the low carbs?

4.) - Any feedback at all.

Thanks for any help in advance!!


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## Huntingground (Jan 10, 2010)

Update:-

I have just ordered metformin to help me to get into Keto - thanks Ausbuilt!!

Also, something of note, I have never been so thirsty in all of my life and am drinking lots of water. I am even waking up to 4 times in the night for water.


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## KRS (Nov 27, 2008)

The majority of the weight you have lost so far will be water and glycogen. For every gram of glycogen you lose, you also lose 3-4 grams of water. The first two weeks of a keto I do not refeed, I want to guarantee that I'm fully depleted and ketosis is in full swing. I also find that if I've waited the two weeks before a refeed, it's easier for me to get back into ketosis. The metformin didn't really help me get into ketosis any faster but it did stop me spilling over when I had refeed days.


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## Huntingground (Jan 10, 2010)

Yes, I understand that it will be water and glycogen, no fat yet. I look much better already though.

Thanks KRS, I will put off the refeed until next Saturday night then.


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## 1Tonne (Jun 6, 2010)

What do you weigh? And Lean Body Mass also?

Am i safe to assuming calorie will drop with time and fat burners arent being used yet? Would really come down to how much fat your needing to shift.


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## SoulXedge (Mar 15, 2010)

Post up a typical daily meal plan mate


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## Huntingground (Jan 10, 2010)

1Tonne said:


> What do you weigh? And Lean Body Mass also?
> 
> Am i safe to assuming calorie will drop with time and fat burners arent being used yet? Would really come down to how much fat your needing to shift.


Weight as above mate. 258lb at start, now 247lb. Haven't thought about cals dropping in time, will see how body is reacting and adjust accordingly.

I want to get to 230lb and then see where I am at.


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## Huntingground (Jan 10, 2010)

SoulXedge said:


> Post up a typical daily meal plan mate


06:00 - Whey Isolate with soya milk with 1 tbsp of Whole Earth Peanut butter.

09:00 - Boiled eggs, cheese and smoked mackerel. EVOO.

12:00 - Boiled eggs, cheese and smoked mackerel. EVOO.

15:00 - Boiled eggs, cheese and smoked mackerel. EVOO.

18:00 - 6 whole egg omelette with 50g cheese. Handful of Cashews /Brazils .

21:00 - Whey Isolate with soya milk with 1 tbsp of Whole Earth Peanut butter.

The 18:00 meal is sometimes changed to fish and brocolli. I add some sporadic veg in there too.


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## Huntingground (Jan 10, 2010)

Food Name Amount Unit Cals Fat (g) Carbs (g) Prot (g)

Egg, whole, boiled 18 1,389 95.1 10.0 112.8

Cheese 150g 524 40.4 7.1 33.3

Mackerel, smoked 250g 499 25.1 0.0 63.8

Whey Isolate 90% 2 servings 480 1.0 2.0 108.0

Soya Milk 2 servings 200 12.0 2.0 20.0

Total 3,093 173.6 21.1 337.9


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## 1Tonne (Jun 6, 2010)

Ahh kk, sorry mate, was too early in the morning.

First thought was protein was a bit high but if your implying your lean body mass is 230lb then its not so bad at all. Looks good. Lots of eggs but like you say mate, with no option of red or white meat then you are limited.

Would def add some fish in there also when you can mate, maybe make it an every other day sort of thing, just to vary the diet somewhat. What you running this for 12 weeks? Could get a bit repetetive come that time.

Otherwise mate, spot on, good luck, hope it all goes to plan


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## Huntingground (Jan 10, 2010)

Thanks 1Tonne, let's see if I can keep it up


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## MXD (Jan 23, 2008)

Cut the soya milk, rest looks good.


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## The Ultimate Warrior (Dec 20, 2010)

Don't bother with Keto-stix, they are for diabetics, we use up the majority of our ketones so the test will be completly innacurate.

If you truly want to know if your in Ketosis, purchase a glucometer and some testing strips.

the general consesus is to refeed after 14 days, I myself do, and weightloss does not faulter.

I personally see no point in waiting longer than 14 days.


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## The Ultimate Warrior (Dec 20, 2010)

Hey mate, whats your bodyfat %?

Get your info into this calculator http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/sclark91.htm

Its very difficult to set it up without risking Glucogenisis.


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## MXD (Jan 23, 2008)

Oh and eat;

Cucumber

celery

broccoli

spinach


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## Robbyg (Feb 25, 2008)

I just did mine and to be honest the fat amount is way off for me im eating 180g per day not 300 odd gs and im 186lbs and 14 bf


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## Huntingground (Jan 10, 2010)

MXD said:


> Cut the soya milk, rest looks good.


Soya milk is unssweetened and macros are in the calcs above.

Why cut it?


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## Huntingground (Jan 10, 2010)

MXD said:


> Oh and eat;
> 
> Cucumber
> 
> ...


As mentioned above, Brocolli is being eaten and some other veg too.


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## Huntingground (Jan 10, 2010)

JPaycheck said:


> Don't bother with Keto-stix, they are for diabetics, we use up the majority of our ketones so the test will be completly innacurate.
> 
> If you truly want to know if your in Ketosis, purchase a glucometer and some testing strips.
> 
> ...


Keotstix are ordered so I will try them now, I suppose.

I will refeed next Saturday then as I've only been going 12 days.


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

Huntingground said:


> Keotstix are ordered so I will try them now, I suppose.
> 
> I will refeed next Saturday then as I've only been going 12 days.


hi mate,

sorry missed this post..

i may have mentioned it before; but keto stix only show if you're excreting ketones (i.e unburnt ones, excess to your requirements- of course this is deep keto)

The only way to know if your meals are right for YOU is to measure BG (someone posted this previously on this post and are 100% right).

If your BG is over 5.6, then you will not get into keto. that simple.

test your BG 15min and 30min after your meals- should always be under 5.6.

If you have ZERO carbs, AND your BG is over 5.6 (happened to me, kept testing 6.2) it means to much protein compared to fats, and the body is in gluconeogenesis and making glucose from amino acids..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gluconeogenesis

whereas you want ketosis:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketosis

you will notice ketones are made from triglycerides; the idea is that the fat % of cals in your diet is higher than your protein cals, but your OVERALL cals are below maintenance, this encourages the body to burn its stored triglycerides for energy after burning the ones you eat in your meals.. as its already in "fat burning mode" owing to the % of fats you are eating, and the fact that your BG is UNDER 5.6 (fasting blood sugar levels).

you will notice from the wikipedia link that ketosis only happens when the body thinks its starving- which ONLY happens when BG is under 5.6...

you can get a glucometer from boots/chemists, I like this one:

https://www.bayerdiabetes.co.uk/shop/shop-detail.aspx?id=apollo&PID=14&utm_source=googlek&utm_medium=ppc&utm_content=ppc&utm_campaign=usbaug&dsc=USBAWP


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

JPaycheck said:


> Don't bother with Keto-stix, they are for diabetics, we use up the majority of our ketones so the test will be completly innacurate.
> 
> If you truly want to know if your in Ketosis, purchase a glucometer and some testing strips.
> 
> ...


actually I register light ketosis everymorning.. and deeper post cardio.. BUT you are 100% correct- keto stix only show excess ketones; you may be in ketosis and not register on the stix.. and BG levels under 5.6 are the only way to ensure you're in ketosis.. so nice to see other people are catching onto using a glucometer... its the ONLY reliable indicator..


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## Huntingground (Jan 10, 2010)

ausbuilt said:


> hi mate,
> 
> sorry missed this post..
> 
> ...


Ausbuilt, you are mentioned in the 2nd post and thanks again for this post (I have read it before as you have posted it on another thread).


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## Huntingground (Jan 10, 2010)

Ausbuilt, I was thinking of adding in GHRP2+CJC combo, would this be beneficial? Also some HGH blasts?


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

Huntingground said:


> Ausbuilt, I was thinking of adding in GHRP2+CJC combo, would this be beneficial? Also some HGH blasts?


I take ipamorelin (instead of GHRP-2, but this is fine too) and mod GRF (1-29) (what some call cjc-1295 without DAC); I find it VERY beneficial- 100mcg of each just before bed, with 10mg of melatonin (not for the sleep, it makes the GH peak bigger!)

I also take 2iu HGH/day (split morning/post training); I don't agree with blasts, mainly because the body rate/limits the HGH cascade- i don't believe most blast cycles take enough T4 and T3 OR hydrocortisone (YES a CATABOLIC substance) to make blasts work... of course, anyone can choose to waste as much hgh as they want.. (up to 6iu HGH day is prob usable with around 100mcg T4, but thats a whole nother long post...)


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## KRS (Nov 27, 2008)

JPaycheck said:


> Don't bother with Keto-stix, they are for diabetics, we use up the majority of our ketones so the test will be completly innacurate.
> 
> If you truly want to know if your in Ketosis, purchase a glucometer and some testing strips.
> 
> ...


I found the readings I was getting from keto-stix very inconsistent, I would be losing weight yet show no ketones for weeks at a time. Nice to have an explanation mate. repped:thumbup1:


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## The Ultimate Warrior (Dec 20, 2010)

KRS said:


> I found the readings I was getting from keto-stix very inconsistent, I would be losing weight yet show no ketones for weeks at a time. Nice to have an explanation mate. repped:thumbup1:


Thanks buddy, appreciated.


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## jim2509 (Dec 30, 2010)

I only felt like crap for the 1st two days and did a re-feed every sun, carbs during the 6 days were never more than 10g a day. By week 4 i'd lost 18 pounds...make sure your maintainence diet is good if your looking at long term weight loss.


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## Robbyg (Feb 25, 2008)

Just check my blood and it 5.5


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

Robbyg said:


> Just check my blood and it 5.5


congrats! Keto in the works.. 

make sure its always around that (under 5.6) after every meal, and you'll be shredded... the BG numbers don't lie!


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## Huntingground (Jan 10, 2010)

I have been doing an hour of cardio a day this week and have hit 244lbs = 1 stone lost in 17 days. Happy days. :bounce:

I have been craving sugary stuff so have added Splenda into the diet - will this be OK in coffee a couple of times a day?

Also tomorrow night is my first carb load-up. Is alcohol allowed? If so, Guinness here I come. :beer:

Also got the Ketostix, p1ssed on them and came back negative :cursing:


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

Huntingground said:


> I have been doing an hour of cardio a day this week and have hit 244lbs = 1 stone lost in 17 days. Happy days. :bounce:
> 
> I have been craving sugary stuff so have added Splenda into the diet - will this be OK in coffee a couple of times a day?
> 
> ...


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## Huntingground (Jan 10, 2010)

Thanks Ausbuilt. so no Splenda then, that's a blow but I will take the advice on board.

Still unsure on the alcohol, I will probably give it a miss. Massive home-made tuna pasta with cheesy garlic bread followed by chocolates etc planned for tonight......

Yes, I know the Ketostix are carp but thought I would p1ss on them anyhow now that they have arrived.


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

Huntingground said:


> Thanks Ausbuilt. so no Splenda then, that's a blow but I will take the advice on board.
> 
> Still unsure on the alcohol, I will probably give it a miss. Massive home-made tuna pasta with cheesy garlic bread followed by chocolates etc planned for tonight......
> 
> Yes, I know the Ketostix are carp but thought I would p1ss on them anyhow now that they have arrived.


well, you can TRY the splenda, and test your BG 15min and 30min after.. if stays under 5.6mmol/L then fine to use it.. who knows YOU may be OK...

If you're having cheese etc in your carb-up you're really doing yourself a dis-service.

Fats blunt insulin response; after being carb-depleted, your body becomes VERY insulin sensitive, the idea is then to use this enhanced sensitive state to drive an above normal amount of glucose and aminos into the muscle cells... if your sanity demands that you have the meal you've described, then at least take met; it keeps your insulin sensitivity higher than normal, even in presence of fat...

I have basset's "jelly babies" or the natural confectionary company range- all have glucose as a first ingredient... and next to know fat.. rather than chocolate..


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## Huntingground (Jan 10, 2010)

Thanks Aus.

Right, carb up was immense and very enjoyable. I have had a poorly stomach all day since as I ate all of the above and more in one sitting. Lots of Starburst too so lots of sugary sh1te. Weight was 247lbs this morn.


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## Huntingground (Jan 10, 2010)

Still on 244-246lb so not losing fast enough.

I am going to cut out the peanut butter which I eat quite a lot of if hungry.

I have just ordered a BG monitor (thanks Aus).

Also starting on GRHP2/CJC combo tonight and adding in sone OneRip too.

Metformin should arrive any day now, I will start on 500 and work up to 1500 ED.


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

Huntingground said:


> Still on 244-246lb so not losing fast enough.
> 
> I am going to cut out the peanut butter which I eat quite a lot of if hungry.
> 
> ...


have a search for "bodyopus" by dan duchaine, one of the best books on the subject I have EVER read.. taught me most of what I know to start with. There is an EXCELLENT section on how to carb-up effectively, workout, even use of met and Thyroid etc...

I feel many people may bump out of keto with PB.. but you don't know 'till you test your BG....

If you're not losing fast enough, it means either to many cals or not in keto...


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## Huntingground (Jan 10, 2010)

Very tight diet yesterday (no nuts/peanut butter, 18.2g of carbs) and 1 hour on treadmill at 7kph. Today felt tighter when I got up and weighed in at 243lbs. YES, get in ,making progress again.

Pinned 2ml of OneRip last night.

Starting GHRP2/CJC combo tonight before bed.

Still no Metformin or BG monitor.

Ketostix (don't moan Aus) show "traces" of Ketones.


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## Huntingground (Jan 10, 2010)

Started GHRP2/CJC combo last night before bed. Weird dreams all night but woke up thirsty many times.

Still 243lbs today.

Awaiting Metformin and BG monitor.

No gym/cardio yesterday (was working from home and legs too sore for running).

Weights today - deadlifts day, yes!!!


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## musio (Jan 25, 2008)

ausbuilt, this is really helpful stuff! I like your scientific approach.. Will buy the contour USB monitor today from boots. :thumbup1:

So, just to summarise for my keto trial.

-Keep under 5.6 on the meter. If not, you're taking in too much protein..

-carb up weekends with no fat (or less than 5% if you have to)

Any other quick tips for the carb-up days?

Does carb up being friday night though to sunday evening or saturday to sunday evening?

Thanks!


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## Robbyg (Feb 25, 2008)

I will be carbing up this Friday first 24hrs will be ratios of 70% carbs then 15 15 fats protein this will be reduced the next 12hrs then back into keto. I had been following the info for the ckd diet.My bg is below 5 on every meal and im loosing too which is good to see lol


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## Robbyg (Feb 25, 2008)

Musio send me your email ill send you the pdf book on all keto diet and how to refeed


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

musio said:


> ausbuilt, this is really helpful stuff! I like your scientific approach.. Will buy the contour USB monitor today from boots. :thumbup1:
> 
> So, just to summarise for my keto trial.
> 
> ...


Basically yes, as for the carb-up, there's lots of versions.. choose one and stick to it! If you're natural, then more frequent carb-up will help preserve muscle (at the expense of some fat loss; met helps you go back to keto quick). With AAS you can go longer without a refeed and get shredded faster, and preserve your muscle- thats reality.

as for the carb-up; fri-sun is the body opus version.. (bodyopus by dan duchaine is the book- also talks about met, AAS and thyroid..)


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## musio (Jan 25, 2008)

Robbyg - thanks for the offer! PM on your way with reps 

Ausbuilt - thanks for the answers. It's something worth a read....

I was thinking on my way to boots - could you put your body into keto by eating low carbs but doing HIT cardio every day? My assumption is you can deplete the carbs though cardio and your body would have no other option to burn the fat if you can calcualte your cals and cardio details....would be interesting to know.

(on a side note, boots doesn't have the contour USB meter but does have 1/2 price sale on..the contour does look good though)


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

musio said:


> Robbyg - thanks for the offer! PM on your way with reps
> 
> Ausbuilt - thanks for the answers. It's something worth a read....
> 
> ...


all BG meters work.. bayer and (I think aviva?) are the two most common/best selling so getting test strips is easy. I order online as there's always stock!

https://www.bayerdiabetes.co.uk/shop/shop.aspx?id=apollo

You body will not go into keto (esp if you're natural) with low carbs and HITT, because your body does have a choice... if your natural your body will burn aminos, and keep burning them before fat.. as muscle/protein is expensive and it will sacrifice it first.. hence you can be natural and cut, but not natural cut and with large muscles...

if you take AAS, your body is FORCED to retain nitrogen (the "N" in -NH3 that makes an amine group, which makes an amino acid). Now if you're taking t3 (i.e no GH) you INCREASE your metabolism- this means INCREASING protein synthesis (muscle making) from the amino's retained by the AAS.. so your body will not be burning aminos for fuel, and you go into keto quicker.... if you take met or 'slin, you move into keto quicker again... as you are tricking your body..

I've made previous long posts about these processes, but in order of preference your body prefers to enter the krebs cycle (how it makes energy) via glycolisis (burning glucose) first- easy and waaaaaay preferred, next is gluconeogenesis, wherea aminos are made into glucose that is in turn burned (i.e why you have high BG readings with zero carbs but high proteins). Last, and waaaay down the list is ketosis- making ketone bodies from fatty acids...

Its the use of AAS+thyroid+met/'slin that makes you able to move to keto fast- but only with ZERO (or close to zero) carbs... its all a metabolic trick..

if you do low (but not zero carbs) with AAS+thyroid +met, you may get to keto with daily HITT... but it won't be comfortable.. and you may/may not make it..

unless you follow a TKD approach...


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## musio (Jan 25, 2008)

Thanks asbuilt! It's good to get the theory behind this - really helpful stuff and i feel like i'm understanding a lot more. I think it's time for a new thread on AAS and keto which i'll start now. (sorry op if i've directed this otherwise!)


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## Huntingground (Jan 10, 2010)

No worries musio, more the merrier


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## Jim78 (Aug 20, 2010)

Good going bud, Im glad I read this journal as I realised my supposed Keto diet wasn't...erm...actually getting me into ketosis...lol

Can I ask bud, what are the chan ges like with the weight dropped? tighter mid section from water loss etc?


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## Jim78 (Aug 20, 2010)

ausbuilt said:


> all BG meters work.. bayer and (I think aviva?) are the two most common/best selling so getting test strips is easy. I order online as there's always stock!
> 
> https://www.bayerdiabetes.co.uk/shop/shop.aspx?id=apollo
> 
> ...


Another great post bud, very imformative indeed.


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## Huntingground (Jan 10, 2010)

Hi Jim,

I have mainly noticed the difference around my abs. I have full abs now visible in all lights. Feel much tighter too. I am more 'in tune' with my weight and know when I have lost weight.........


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## Huntingground (Jan 10, 2010)

Up to 246lbs today but much leaner and drier. Much happier with shape, full abs etc. I will be starting to ignore body weight readings and using photos, I took my first ones this morning for weekly comparison. I won't be putting them up.

I think that the reason why I am up in weight is due to what I am taking. Here is my stack:-

500mg Test En PW

400mg OneRip 3*W (it is a 200mg/ml blend made of 70mg test prop, 65mg drostanolone(mast ace I think) and 65mg tren ace)

200mg Anavar PD

50mg Dbol PD

50mg Oxy when I feel like it (not often, usually on training days)

GRHP2/CJC combo before bed (GRHP2 250 mcg and CJC 100mcg).

Also taking usual anciliaries - Aromasin and HCG.

Cutters - 160mcg Clen and 100mcg T3 PD.

I reckon I am gaining muscle but losing fat. If i feel like I am gaining water etc I will drop the DBol and Oxy.

BG Meter arrived yesterday, I am going to figure out how to use it today. Still no Metformin from unitedpharamacies, taking their time.

Massive carb up planned for tonight, not sure of what I am having yet but I do know there will be lots of it


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

Huntingground said:


> Up to 246lbs today but much leaner and drier. Much happier with shape, full abs etc. I will be starting to ignore body weight readings and using photos, I took my first ones this morning for weekly comparison. I won't be putting them up.
> 
> I think that the reason why I am up in weight is due to what I am taking. Here is my stack:-
> 
> ...


I will try and find an extract, but the carb-up described by Dan Duchaine in BodyOpus is very good.. i've been doing it from memory, but am thinking of tightening this part up myself..

but overall well done!! sounds like you're going great guns! nice to see others managing the body-recomposotion rather than just a straight minimise fat loss while losing fat approach.. so many people thought it wasn't possible to build muscle and lose fat at the same time (mind you, this IS impossible naturally!!)


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## Huntingground (Jan 10, 2010)

Thanks Aus, inspiring post by you and will ensure that I keep on track. Big pat on the back for me 

Thanks for looking over the stack and giving it the thumbs up. I sort of created it as I went along, tweaking, adding stuff, dropping stuff, essentially just seeing what was working.

I thought that the Aromasin may help with the water retention etc? I can switch to Adex if need be, also I am not afraid to any drug (even DNP, not yet tho) so Lasix is an option. I will investigate.

If you could find an extract about carbing up that would be great as that is one area I need to work on.


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

Huntingground said:


> I thought that the Aromasin may help with the water retention etc?
> 
> i find arimidex seems to do better for stopping water retention, though aromasin should work- it could be one of those things of trying different AI's that work better for your body- for me arimidex is magic
> 
> ...


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## Huntingground (Jan 10, 2010)

Thanks Aus, will starting googling myself


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## Jim78 (Aug 20, 2010)

Huntingground said:


> Hi Jim,
> 
> I have mainly noticed the difference around my abs. I have full abs now visible in all lights. Feel much tighter too. I am more 'in tune' with my weight and know when I have lost weight.........


thats great mate, have subscribed, good luck and keep the good work up!


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## Huntingground (Jan 10, 2010)

Metformin arrived, just took 1000mg. Will sort out BG monitor readings tomorrow.


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## MXD (Jan 23, 2008)

Christ alive I hope you are getting LFT's..


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## Huntingground (Jan 10, 2010)

LFT = liver functions tests? Is that correct?

If so, why?


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## MXD (Jan 23, 2008)

Mate are you serious? That's an insane amount of liver stressing meds you're running.. Are you using NAC or milk thistle to support that?

Oral gear can cause benign liver tumours fact.. pick an oral and stick with it at a reasonable dose.


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

MXD said:


> Mate are you serious? That's an insane amount of liver stressing meds you're running.. Are you using NAC or milk thistle to support that?
> 
> Oral gear can cause benign liver tumours fact.. pick an oral and stick with it at a reasonable dose.


quite disagree with you on this one.. met doesn't stress the liver, and..... i've posted on oxy being safe at 150mg/day... there is LITTLE evidence of a weeks worth of 17-alpha alkylated steroids being more stressful than a pint of beer.. if you're keen to know why.. I'll post it up again.. 

I also no of no medical studies that show NAC or milk thistle to reduce liver enzyme readings when drinking alcohol or taking AAS...


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## Huntingground (Jan 10, 2010)

Thanks Aus. Feel fine after that 1000mg of Met, had a spoonful of PB and off to bed now.


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## MXD (Jan 23, 2008)

Not talking about the met but the 300mg orals a day..

Check this bro:

http://www.wjgnet.com/1007-9327/14/4573.pdf

Also Mt's extract (silymarin) ha extensive research on liver health.

http://www.medicinalnutraceutics.com/supplements/milk-thistle/documents/Randomized%20Trial%20Silymarin%20Treatment%20Cirrosis%20of%20the%20Liver.pdf

One of many.

Theres 20mg dbol a day = a pint of beer

Where as 300mg or various things = a couple pints of vodka.. imo. Orals are good used sensibly, but they can **** you up.


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

MXD said:


> Not talking about the met but the 300mg orals a day..
> 
> Check this bro:
> 
> ...


I like this topic a lot...

Ok in the UK a pint of Lager is 18.4 g of alcohol... or 18,400mg... the liver can process approx 10-14,000mg per hour... which is why so many get done DUI the morning after a night out...

now, to process the alcohol the liver must cleave an -OH group, basically break a C-O single bond...

17-alpha alkylation means that a methyl group (-CH3) is attached to postition 17 of the carbon ring of test (or other modified test structure), so on the first pass, the liver has to cleave the -CH3, effectively breaking the C-C single bond... i do not believe there is a significant difference in stress for the liver to break a C-C as opposed to a C-O bond....

Granted, thats the first pass, then the AAS has to get de-natured again (alcohol does not survive first pass). So, this would mean if you take 100mg of oral a day, your liver sees it as 200mg of toxin.. at 7 days.. thats 1400mg.. so one weeks worth of orals at 100mg day... is TEN times less toxin for your liver to deal with than ONE Pint of Lager..


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## MXD (Jan 23, 2008)

Yeah agreed with the chem but I don't agree that -oh cleaving is the same as -ch3 cleaving.

The medical data backs me up however. I'll research and post back.


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

MXD said:


> Yeah agreed with the chem but I don't agree that -oh cleaving is the same as -ch3 cleaving.
> 
> The medical data backs me up however. I'll research and post back.


 two brains are better than one.. I look forward to it....


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## Huntingground (Jan 10, 2010)

Got up at 4am, had my numerous tablets (including 500mg Metformin) and a whey shake with unsweetened soya milk.

Just configured my Bayer BG meter and run a test = 3.2 mmol/L!!!! I am well into Ketosis. Happy days.


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## Huntingground (Jan 10, 2010)

MXD said:


> Not talking about the met but the 300mg orals a day..
> 
> Check this bro:
> 
> ...


Hi MXD,

Not worried at all about the orals. Var is pretty mild and 200mg/day is high but not dangerous.

Dbol and Oxy dosages are small (Oxy is taken when I feel like it only and Dbol is used mainly on training days (3 days a week) so not constantly on these two).

All in all, not worried at all.

I will have my usual yearly checkup in June.


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## MXD (Jan 23, 2008)

I had a liver andenoma in aug last year, it ruptured and I lost 4L of blood. Allmost died. Whether or not it was from oral gear was inconclusive. Be worried.


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## Huntingground (Jan 10, 2010)

Fair enough mate, didn't know, hope you are well now.


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## MXD (Jan 23, 2008)

That's ok man and yeah LFT's are fine now..

Just don't think that just liver toxicity is the only thing to be worried about it isn't. I was in the Liver HDU at birmingham. These guys are the leading liver specialists in the uk. While they couln't conclusively state that the orals caused it they get similar cases every year from women that have been on the pill..

They get bodybuilers in here an there with the same thing just not as severe or as large as what my adenoma was (9cm by 6cm). Which is why they thought it could of been going on for a few years as my oral use was not that extensive. But there you are.

In my opinion the simple fact that the liver units getting 2-3 boybuilding males a year with liver adenomas proves my point quite well..


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## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

I'm more concerned with the ubiquitous recommendation of metformin for controlling b/g on keto diets on here of late. Met is prescribed by doctors to type 2 diabetics to get blood glucose down, the don't really care about the how and why it does this. Why mention this? Well Met actually increases glucose uptake in fat as well as muscle cells, so it could actually be going against the effect you're trying to acheive - in fact met has been shown to increase fat cell proliferation in some cases.

Just a thought.


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## Rudedog (Jan 14, 2009)

Are you taking the met everyday or just on carb ups?


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## Huntingground (Jan 10, 2010)

Rudedog,

Pretty new to Met so am experimenting and am taking BG readings at different times of the day.

Am taking 3*500mg every day for the first phase of experimentation.


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## Huntingground (Jan 10, 2010)

Bayman,

I am following Ausbuilts recommendations for the Met. Maybe Aus can respond here?


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## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

Huntingground said:


> Bayman,
> 
> I am following Ausbuilts recommendations for the Met. Maybe Aus can respond here?


That's what I was hoping too!


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## Rudedog (Jan 14, 2009)

Huntingground said:


> Rudedog,
> 
> Pretty new to Met so am experimenting and am taking BG readings at different times of the day.
> 
> Am taking 3*500mg every day for the first phase of experimentation.


Cheers mate


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

bayman said:


> I'm more concerned with the ubiquitous recommendation of metformin for controlling b/g on keto diets on here of late. Met is prescribed by doctors to type 2 diabetics to get blood glucose down, the don't really care about the how and why it does this. Why mention this? Well Met actually increases glucose uptake in fat as well as muscle cells, so it could actually be going against the effect you're trying to acheive - in fact met has been shown to increase fat cell proliferation in some cases.
> 
> Just a thought.


bayman you're kind of right; met is a tool, and no tool is perfect, just perfect for a one job, rarely all..

OK, met DOES drive carbs into muscle AND adipose tissue...thats what its SUPPOSED to do- but it works in this way.. first glucose/glycogen is loaded into muscle cells, then the liver, and then when these are full... adipose tissue (after all, thats the role of adipose tissue! storing excess cals for a rainy day...)

So, on a keto diet carb up, you can use met to get into keto faster; this happens because once your finish your carb up, the met drives the remaining glucose into your muscle/liver/fat cells, rapidly and with the higher proportion of fats than proteins available, move your body past gluconeogenesis, and into ketosis faster..

But lets back track... before the carb up:

-you're in ketosis, and your doing cardio and weights; your muscle are FLAT and empty as you have no glucose holding water..

-as you're in ketosis, your insulin sensitivity is higher than normal..

-the summary is your muscles are "depleted"

Now you start your carb-up- simple carbs/whey and no fats (right? not pizza...) you body releases insulin and it drives ALL the glucose into your DEPLETED muscles along with the aminos from the whey... you keep carbing up.. and the same thing happens- you have heightened insulin sensitivity- this is called glucose supercompensation (marathoners do something similar with carb cylcing to load their muscles prior to a race); when the muscles are full, the liver is filled (holds up to 400g) then the excess goes to fat.. this happens with met or not... just faster with met..

The point is met is a very useful tool; BUT it doesn't help if you think "carb-up" or "re-feed" means stuff your face with as many carbs as you feel like from any source....

The re-feed is not to keep you "sane" or a "treat" or "cheat" what its supposed to be is a means of retaining (or building, with the right drugs) muscle by super-compensating the depleted muscle with glucose.. the idea is to eat enough carbs to achieve this, then use met to move back to ketosis AS FAST AS POSSIBLE so that you're back to fat burning as fast as possible (with the benefit of minimising the horrible time prior to keto where you are week and nauseous).

Of course.. met does allow you some slack- it works even in the presence of fats, so normally where fats DESENSITISE you to insulin (and you lose the benefit of the heightened insulin sensitivity keto gives you), met overcomes this if you've been a bit slack and had a pizza... of course this ISN'T the reason you take met right?

Met/'slin can give amazing results, and can (like AAS and GH and T4/T3) allow you to progress if your diet isn't 100%... BUT to get OPTIMAL results, the diet must be TIGHT...

SO in summary- if you're not carbing-up like a pig, met will increase the time in ketosis and is a great aid for fat burning in that respect post carb-up..... but nothing makes up for a poor approach to carbing up (or dieting generally).

BTW- 'slin can also make you fat.. or it can put you into keto in a matter of hours- depends on your diet...


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## Huntingground (Jan 10, 2010)

Thanks Aus.

BG readings today.

1.) - After very low carb whey drink early this morning = 3.2

2.) - After 6 eggs/cheese scrambled together = 2.5!!

3.) - After eggs, cheese and smoked mackerel = 3.4


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

Huntingground said:


> Rudedog,
> 
> Pretty new to Met so am experimenting and am taking BG readings at different times of the day.
> 
> Am taking 3*500mg every day for the first phase of experimentation.


there's no need/advantage to taking more, and form a life extension perspective many take that amount daily for life... (makes the body produce the same metabolites as if it was on a 30% cal restricted diet, which is proven to extend years lived)


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## Jim78 (Aug 20, 2010)

Huntingground said:


> Thanks Aus.
> 
> BG readings today.
> 
> ...


hehe, whats it feel like bud at 2.5?


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## Huntingground (Jan 10, 2010)

Not too bad, little light-headed, I felt bad after 1000mg last night so had to eat an emergency dose of PB.


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## Jim78 (Aug 20, 2010)

Huntingground said:


> Not too bad, little light-headed, I felt bad after 1000mg last night so had to eat an emergency dose of PB.


Deffo feel the difference with the body using fat instead of carbs for energy can't ya, I think after a 2-3 wk adjustment period the body, like with anything will become accustomed and it should be a pretty straightforward routine necking just pro/fats.

Only time I miss them atm (carbs) is for training where its tough going.


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## MXD (Jan 23, 2008)

My cardio vascular improves so much on keto. All though my general strength dips slightly. Its a trade off between higher workout capacity and top end strength, which is pretty perfect really seeing as if your doing more in your workout its only going to help you get leaner


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## Jim78 (Aug 20, 2010)

MXD said:


> My cardio vascular improves so much on keto. All though my general strength dips slightly. Its a trade off between higher workout capacity and top end strength, which is pretty perfect really seeing as if your doing more in your workout its only going to help you get leaner


I agree I have fallen in love with cardio (weirdly), not sure if im doing too much too soon 45mins x 2 a day but as long as im under 5.6 I should be ok yeah??

Do you just go lighter but higher reps Max out of curiosity?


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## Robbyg (Feb 25, 2008)

Whats the macros on that lot



Huntingground said:


> Thanks Aus.
> 
> BG readings today.
> 
> ...


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## MXD (Jan 23, 2008)

I do 2*40 mins a day so that's fine as long as your cals are on point.

Hmm I go by how I feel tbh mate this was yeterday's quads and calve sesh:

"4-1-x-0" Means reptime. 4 second negative - 1 pause - explosive up - 0 pause at top

Squats atg (ham calve contact) - 4-1-x-0

120*8*3 -

90 *20 restpaued

Leg extentions - 55*12*3

Leg press - 15 reps * 3 suepr slow

Calve smyth - 150*12*7

Rotary - 55*25*3

As you can see my trainings generally a mix of heavy and high reps.


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## Jim78 (Aug 20, 2010)

MXD said:


> I do 2*40 mins a day so that's fine as long as your cals are on point.
> 
> Hmm I go by how I feel tbh mate this was yeterday's quads and calve sesh:
> 
> ...


lol mines a mix of low weight and low reps pmsl....

I need to look into the carbing up and how you and Aus do it.

Have done a little experiment today PWO and seems to have done the job after a few carbs pre WO this morning.

Cheers bud.


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## Huntingground (Jan 10, 2010)

RobbyG,

I always eat the same diet. See start of thread for diet/macros.


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