# Cissus: worth the outlay?



## PeterTheEater (May 20, 2004)

hey up

have developed quite sore joints/tendons lately

started taking JointAce with Chondroitin and Glucosamine... also Omega 3/6/9 twice daily

doesnt seem to be working... though its only been a three weeks since starting the JointAce and one week since adding the Omega oils and i believe the effect builds up over time...

anyhow im an impatient bastage so was wanting to add Cissus into the fray

is it worth the extra outlay for the effects? the USP Super Cissus RX stuff seems to be tad pricey...

advice?


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## Gym Bunny (Mar 25, 2009)

I wouldn't bother with USP as that only contains 10% Ketosterone (the active ingredient).

I get my cissus from BulkSupplementsDirect and theirs has 50% Ketosterone. http://www.bulksupplementsdirect.co.uk/khxc/cissus-quadrangularis.html

I've had considerable problems with my tendons and ligaments and cannot recommend cissus enough.

(If you need it I've got a 5% discount code BSD8)


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## PeterTheEater (May 20, 2004)

thanks for the advice....

...great eyes btw...

:thumbup1:


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## stl (Apr 12, 2009)

> I've had considerable problems with my tendons and ligaments and cannot recommend cissus enough.


X2

I'm using MP's at the moment.

I do notice a difference if i stop taking fish oils, less fluid movement if that makes sense?

Glucosamine has been proven to be a waste of time.


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## PeterTheEater (May 20, 2004)

yeah im thinking of dropping the Jointace as its not done a thing that i can notice...


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## God (Sep 3, 2009)

Gym Bunny said:


> I wouldn't bother with USP as that only contains 10% Ketosterone (the active ingredient).
> 
> I get my cissus from BulkSupplementsDirect and theirs has 50% Ketosterone. http://www.bulksupplementsdirect.co.uk/khxc/cissus-quadrangularis.html
> 
> ...


A lot of debate on whether this percentage is actually important in terms of joints or just more marketing hype. I've read a lot of mixed thoughts on it.

I've used both. Got nothing from MP stuff but USP Labs seemed to have some effect.


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## God (Sep 3, 2009)

stl said:


> Glucosamine has been proven to be a waste of time.


Any more info on this?


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## stl (Apr 12, 2009)

> Any more info on this?


ill try and dig the info out, I remember reading about a clamp down on false claims and labelling, backed up with studies showing glucosamine would benefit people with osteoarthritis only.


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## Greyphantom (Oct 23, 2003)

Gym Bunny said:


> I wouldn't bother with USP as that only contains 10% Ketosterone (the active ingredient).
> 
> I get my cissus from BulkSupplementsDirect and theirs has 50% Ketosterone. http://www.bulksupplementsdirect.co.uk/khxc/cissus-quadrangularis.html
> 
> ...


x2 cissus is really really good stuff... I use the MP stuff and after a few days all the aches and creaks from my old joints go...



God said:


> Any more info on this?


I would also be interested in reading any info you have Stl...


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## stl (Apr 12, 2009)

This is what caught my interest

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/health/article6876773.ece

*Glucosamine*

What is it?

Naturally occurring glucosamine is a building block for joint cartilage. Supplements of glucosamine, sometimes also containing chondroitin (another component of cartilage) are bestsellers.

Common claims

"Stimulates the growth of cartilage"; "promotes optimal joint flexibility"; "nutritional support for healthy joints"; "eases pain stiffness and inflammation".

Verdict

The data does not demonstrate that glucosamine taken alone, or with chondroitin, promotes healthy joints in most people, say the EFSA scientists. Nor is there evidence that it reduces inflammation in joints. Recent studies indicate that glucosamine can benefit people with osteoarthritis, but not the population in general, the scientists say.

Which led me here

http://www.efsa.europa.eu/en/scdocs/scdoc/1264.htm


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

Gym Bunny said:


> I wouldn't bother with USP as that only contains 10% Ketosterone (the active ingredient).
> 
> I get my cissus from BulkSupplementsDirect and theirs has 50% Ketosterone. http://www.bulksupplementsdirect.co.uk/khxc/cissus-quadrangularis.html
> 
> ...


That's the one you want... as Gym Bunny says, cissus with a low ketosterone content isn't worth it, but at 50% it can definitely help. Don't know if its still the case, but for a while BSDs was the cheapest 50% in europe.

The difference is clear in the studies on the stuff, that the under 40% extracts don't show any decent results but the 50% stuff does, and this seems to be peoples experiences of it too.


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## tiptoe (Jun 22, 2007)

cissus has done wonders for my dodgy joints. nothing else has worked and its also eased pains my grandad has suffered since he stopped playing rugby 35 years ago!


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## Gym-pig (Jun 25, 2008)

Would def recommend BSD as a company

You considered udo's , works wonders for my knees


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## xpower (Jul 28, 2009)

Cissus works wonders IMO.

I've used the USP & MP & they both did the trick for my elbow


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## mickfootie (Aug 10, 2008)

Dtlv74 said:


> *cissus with a low ketosterone content isn't worth it.*
> 
> *
> *
> ...


Can you show me this info? Many who have used different types of Cissus have given feedback to suggest that a lower % of actives is more favourable for the joints where as the ones used with the higher % of actives has given more anabolic effects but also taken away the joint aid effect.

If the case was as you have suggested then why has USPlabs got the patent for the extraction of the actives that seems to work very well for the joints (a 10% concentration of actives)? And if it was catagorically shown that the higher the % the better for joints then why haven't USplabs put a higher extracted compound out in the market for the joints?

Some extraction processes for the higher Ketone % could also end up removing some other nutrients that have benefit for the joints. This is why USPlabs has spent quite a few years and money getting the patent for the correct extraction of the beneficial nutrients.


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## Greyphantom (Oct 23, 2003)

Do you really need an explanation as to why a company looking to make money and lots of it will use the only a little amount of the working substance and not put more in thus cutting into their profits...


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## God (Sep 3, 2009)

stl said:


> This is what caught my interest
> 
> http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/health/article6876773.ece
> 
> ...


I'll take a look thanks. I have been using glucosamine for years now but how much difference it really makes I don't know.



Dtlv74 said:


> That's the one you want... as Gym Bunny says, cissus with a low ketosterone content isn't worth it, but at 50% it can definitely help. Don't know if its still the case, but for a while BSDs was the cheapest 50% in europe.
> 
> The difference is clear in the studies on the stuff, that the under 40% extracts don't show any decent results but the 50% stuff does, and this seems to be peoples experiences of it too.


What's your take on the glucosamine above and what about Mickfootie's post below as I have heard this from a number of places? Cheers.



mickfootie said:


> Can you show me this info? Many who have used different types of Cissus have given feedback to suggest that a lower % of actives is more favourable for the joints where as the ones used with the higher % of actives has given more anabolic effects but also taken away the joint aid effect.
> 
> If the case was as you have suggested then why has USPlabs got the patent for the extraction of the actives that seems to work very well for the joints (a 10% concentration of actives)? And if it was catagorically shown that the higher the % the better for joints then why haven't USplabs put a higher extracted compound out in the market for the joints?
> 
> Some extraction processes for the higher Ketone % could also end up removing some other nutrients that have benefit for the joints. This is why USPlabs has spent quite a few years and money getting the patent for the correct extraction of the beneficial nutrients.


This was what I was getting at. Search Cissus on here and you will find a handful of threads with some knowledgable people debating whether the higher percentage is actually useful in terms of joint/tendon health.



Greyphantom said:


> Do you really need an explanation as to why a company looking to make money and lots of it will use the only a little amount of the working substance and not put more in thus cutting into their profits...


Quantity is not necessarily better than quality though is it, as I said above have a search and there's plenty of people that rate the lower percentage stuff. This is an interesting thread - http://www.muscletalk.co.uk/USP-Labs-Super-Cissus-RX-or-MP-mega-cissus-m3358537.aspx

The higher extract stuff maybe better but I would be more inclined to buy based on peoples experiences rather than stuff on paper. After all, how many different variations of creatine have been released? Most people on here know that the bog standard monohydrate is still the most effective despite companies claiming otherwise.


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## mickfootie (Aug 10, 2008)

Greyphantom said:


> Do you really need an explanation as to why a company looking to make money and lots of it will use the only a little amount of the working substance and not put more in thus cutting into their profits...


As stated before - USPlabs spent a quite a bit of money and quite a few years to patent their extraction process, and are the only ones to have a patent for extraction, which allows them to get the available actives for joint aid.

Yes companies are in business to make money, but who's to say that the companies selling the higher % Cissus aren't the ones who are mis-informing about how the higher % of actives works within the body???

You can look around many forums with Cissus feedback and most have found that the Lower % formula's have been better for their joints than the higher %.

This also does not mean that the Higher % does not work but many have found these to have a reduced effect on the joint aid application.


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## mickfootie (Aug 10, 2008)

God said:


> This was what I was getting at. Search Cissus on here and you will find a handful of threads with some knowledgable people debating whether the higher percentage is actually useful in terms of joint/tendon health.
> 
> Quantity is not necessarily better than quality though is it, as I said above have a search and there's plenty of people that rate the lower percentage stuff. This is an interesting thread - http://www.muscletalk.co.uk/USP-Labs-Super-Cissus-RX-or-MP-mega-cissus-m3358537.aspx
> 
> The higher extract stuff maybe better but I would be more inclined to buy based on peoples experiences rather than stuff on paper. After all, how many different variations of creatine have been released? Most people on here know that the bog standard monohydrate is still the most effective despite companies claiming otherwise.


True words spoken.


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## Greyphantom (Oct 23, 2003)

God said:


> Quantity is not necessarily better than quality though is it, as I said above have a search and there's plenty of people that rate the lower percentage stuff. This is an interesting thread - http://www.muscletalk.co.uk/USP-Labs-Super-Cissus-RX-or-MP-mega-cissus-m3358537.aspx
> 
> The higher extract stuff maybe better but I would be more inclined to buy based on peoples experiences rather than stuff on paper. After all, how many different variations of creatine have been released? Most people on here know that the bog standard monohydrate is still the most effective despite companies claiming otherwise.


Didnt say it was but I understand where youre coming from... and the comparison with creatine sort of backs my point up a bit... could say the same about protein (see below)...



mickfootie said:


> As stated before - USPlabs spent a quite a bit of money and quite a few years to patent their extraction process, and are the only ones to have a patent for extraction, which allows them to get the available actives for joint aid.
> 
> Yes companies are in business to make money, but who's to say that the companies selling the higher % Cissus aren't the ones who are mis-informing about how the higher % of actives works within the body???
> 
> ...


I was wondering that you must have a vested interest and then I read the tag... could you explain how the higher dose stuff would not work as well as the lower dose stuff? also a point of similarity is the protein debate... protein companies often say they spend (and probably do) loads of dosh researching the best protein to use or the best/right amount to use only to be debunked later eg metrx when that came out they found that surprise surprise the amount of protein a person could use or would need was exactly the same as their pouches contained... sorry for my skepticism but I have seen so many red herrings based on the "research" of companies its not funny... all to make a buck... then we get the great protein debacle of ought 10 where protein was underdosed etc... its a shame but I think companies are really having to fight to establish their reps...


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## Gym Bunny (Mar 25, 2009)

mickfootie said:


> As stated before - USPlabs spent a quite a bit of money and quite a few years to patent their extraction process, and are the only ones to have a patent for extraction, which allows them to get the available actives for joint aid.
> 
> Yes companies are in business to make money, but who's to say that the companies selling the higher % Cissus aren't the ones who are mis-informing about how the higher % of actives works within the body???
> 
> ...


It's a tricky subject because, as you say there is so much information out there and sometimes conflicting advice.

Cissus is one of few supplements that has proper, peer reviewed studies backing up it's claims.

A company that claims to have a patent on its extraction technique is only telling us their extraction technique has been patented. It does not mean it is the only extraction technique nor does it tell us that it is the best, only that it has been patented. I have never used USP so cannot comment on their cissus, but I can thoroughly recommend BSD (50% mega cissus) and MPs cissus powder (5%)

My opinions regarding the % of cissus are based on personal experience.

A little history: Few years back I did a number on my foot, broke it, ripped and destroyed the ligaments and tendons, took over 1/2 a year to get back to a stage where I could walk relatively normally.

I was having a huge amount of difficulty with lack of mobility and odema in my ankle. Constant pain. No prescription drugs worked and I couldn't very well go around morphined up.

Around this time MP introduced, or had recently introduced, cissus powder. It was 5% (at that time). I tried it, and despite the delightful taste *note sarcasm* found it worked. The only problem was I needed to mega dose it to get any effect. I was on grams of the stuff daily. It reduced the odema and I was able to get feeling back when walking and no longer limp.

Then BSD introduced the 50% extract. I switched to that and it still worked. Moreover, because it was a higher % I was able to take less to get the same effect.

Cissus doesn't just provide relief to tendon and ligament issues, it's medicinal benefits were first noted for it's ability to assist and accelerate the healing process of fractured bones.

In fact cissus:


Influences positively muscle gain

Analgesic and anti-inflammatory properties

Lowers cortisol activity

Faster bone and connective tissue healing

Anti-catabolic and anti-glucocorticoid

Reduced body weight and lipase inhibition

Lower bone mass loss from osteoporosis

Anti-oxidant, liver protectant and anti-bacterial activity

Better blood lipid profile

Relieve gastric disorders


Your reason for taking cissus will alter your supplementation routine.

With 50% extract, I would take 1-2 caps before bed for predominant anti-cortisol and muscle building activity. (Note: this would often make me groggy on waking but after a much deeper sleep)

For predominant healing and anti-inflammatory properties I split the does between waking and before bed.

On a lower % extract I was having to supplement upward of 4x a day. The higher extract makes things considerably more convenient and works out cheaper. Paricularly when you consider the propensity of cissus to adsorb moisture.


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## mickfootie (Aug 10, 2008)

Greyphantom said:


> Didnt say it was but I understand where youre coming from... and the comparison with creatine sort of backs my point up a bit... could say the same about protein (see below)...
> 
> I was wondering that you must have a vested interest and then I read the tag... could you explain how the higher dose stuff would not work as well as the lower dose stuff? also a point of similarity is the protein debate... protein companies often say they spend (and probably do) loads of dosh researching the best protein to use or the best/right amount to use only to be debunked later eg metrx when that came out they found that surprise surprise the amount of protein a person could use or would need was exactly the same as their pouches contained... sorry for my skepticism but I have seen so many red herrings based on the "research" of companies its not funny... all to make a buck... then we get the great protein debacle of ought 10 where protein was underdosed etc... its a shame but I think companies are really having to fight to establish their reps...


I understand your Skepticism but as i have said the feedback on many forums is that the lower % seems to give joint aid on a greater scale than the higher % products.



Gym Bunny said:


> It's a tricky subject because, as you say there is so much information out there and sometimes conflicting advice.
> 
> Cissus is one of few supplements that has proper, peer reviewed studies backing up it's claims.
> 
> ...


I know the patent shows that we have it for our extraction process and that there are different ways to extract the actives. This been said some of the extraction processes and in particular extraction of the higher % can also loose some of the other nutrients that can help out with the factors that you have stated. Also yes there can be a too low % extract and you would then have to double or treble the dosage to get it to work for you. USPlabs found that around 10% was the best available for many with joint issues and that is why it is still sold as this extract. This is not to say that it is the best for everyone as we are all different and require different dosages to get the same effects not only from Cissus but many other supplements too.


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## Greyphantom (Oct 23, 2003)

mickfootie said:


> I understand your Skepticism but as i have said the feedback on many forums is that the lower % seems to give joint aid on a greater scale than the higher % products.


True I have read some of that feedback but it would also be fair to say that there is feedback regarding the higher % products do the same job if not better it seems fairly evenly split to me... (in the interest of fairness the lower % feedback also comments that the lower % stuff does a better job than the higher %... so no confusion there then lol)...

I read the thread posted by God and tbh it was more a debate between USP supporters and MP over the merits of higher vs lower and that there were no real studies proving either way... also it seemed that the lower camp were deriding anecdotal reports that the higher worked and then would say that feedback proved theirs (lower) was the bomb... so if feedback is relevant for one then feedback for the other should be also...

Thanks for your info Mick... :thumbup1:


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## God (Sep 3, 2009)

Just to clarify, I'm not saying one is better than the other, just that I wouldn't personally decide which product to choose based on this factor alone


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## Guest (Oct 12, 2010)

stl said:


> Glucosamine has been proven to be a waste of time.


That was on the news the other day.

Sure it said no effect on sufferers on arthritis. Didnt mention healthy people though. i dont think

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/andrewmcfbrown/100053833/glucosamine-supplements-for-arthritis-do-not-work-new-study-shows/

To be honest, ive given up on glucosamine, Fish oils all the way for me.


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## PeterTheEater (May 20, 2004)

ive found since starting the Omega 3/6/9 theres been a definite improvement

its really nice to use a supplement and ACTUALLY see a tangible benefit... for once!

ill be adding hte Cissus (not sure which version though)


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## mickfootie (Aug 10, 2008)

PeterTheEater said:


> ive found since starting the Omega 3/6/9 theres been a definite improvement
> 
> its really nice to use a supplement and ACTUALLY see a tangible benefit... for once!
> 
> ill be adding hte Cissus (not sure which version though)


Fish oils are a good start. I use Omega 3 oils, Glucosamine, Chondroitin and MSM formula + SuperCissus (obviously  )

I may be able to help you out with some SuperCissus if you want give it a go?


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## Guest (Oct 12, 2010)

i thought UPS cissus did nothing for my joints, waste of money. Haven't tried any other brand so can't compare.

Deca for the joints in my case


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## ProfDrAndro (Sep 6, 2010)

I leaned out on the super cissus, but that was probably because I did not buy it for joint issues (those were aching at that time, but not too bad), but because it lowers cortisol and I was dieting 

________________________________

ProfDrAndro, head of the SuppVersity

@ http://suppversity.blogspot.com


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

mickfootie said:


> Can you show me this info? Many who have used different types of Cissus have given feedback to suggest that a lower % of actives is more favourable for the joints where as the ones used with the higher % of actives has given more anabolic effects but also taken away the joint aid effect.
> 
> If the case was as you have suggested then why has USPlabs got the patent for the extraction of the actives that seems to work very well for the joints (a 10% concentration of actives)? And if it was catagorically shown that the higher the % the better for joints then why haven't USplabs put a higher extracted compound out in the market for the joints?
> 
> Some extraction processes for the higher Ketone % could also end up removing some other nutrients that have benefit for the joints. This is why USPlabs has spent quite a few years and money getting the patent for the correct extraction of the beneficial nutrients.


I must admit to having to go back to the studies before i can confirm this but i seem to remember the lower %k content being only more effective for osteo issues in trials on animals, mostly rats and dogs, and the same pattern not being demonstrated in human trials... don't hold me to that though, is years since I looked at data on cissus.

Will have a hunt around and see what I can find, as is an interesting question :thumbup1:


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

Ok, well still need to look at more stuff to clarify but it appears there may be a problem with some of the cissus products on healing because some of them focus on only maintaining a high extract of 3-ketosterone... there are two other ketosterones present in cissus, and it seems the optimum healing benefit might require all three to be present at their natural ratio, particularly the 6-ketosterone/3-ketosterone ratio... whereas most of the blends focused on the anabolic side seem to filter out some of the less anabolic sterones and just focus on 3-ketosterone which has been identified as the prime anabolic agent.

Personally I question just how anabolic cissus is, but that's another topic.

This would suggest that for healing, that the percentage value might not important either way as you coulds simply make up for a lower pecentage by increasing the dose, what's more important is whether the ratio of ketosterones has been altered in the processing of the supplement.


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## ProfDrAndro (Sep 6, 2010)

> Personally I question just how anabolic cissus is, but that's another topic.


Here is evidence for some "anabolic" effects of Cissus:



> Lipids Health Dis. 2007 Feb 4;6:4.
> 
> *The effect of Cissus quadrangularis (CQR-300) and a Cissus formulation (CORE) on obesity and obesity-induced oxidative stress.*
> 
> ...


btw, aint' it interesting that there is no scientific evidence for cissus being good for joints? that's all anecdotal...

_______________________________

ProfDrAndro, head of the SuppVersity

@ http://suppversity.blogspot.com


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

ProfDrAndro said:


> Here is evidence for some "anabolic" effects of Cissus:
> 
> btw, aint' it interesting that there is no scientific evidence for cissus being good for joints? that's all anecdotal...
> 
> ...


Thanks for that study 

Yes, all the studies that show healing properties seem to be animal models... there are some studies that were done on humans twenty + years ago but all I can find for those are citations and comments refering to them, the studies themselves don't seem to be available right now.


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## big_nige (Apr 3, 2007)

I'm goin to invest in some!!! Not worried about the money just want my rotary cuff pain to clear! Take 10 fish oils aday, glucosamine, comdroitin and msm and have been for years!!! So I will write and honest review on it's effects on joints! Been training for nearly 11 years so getting old  need to protect my rikity joints


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