# Timed Carbs



## 3752

Most of the people that come to me seeking personal training advice have their number one priority listed as dropping bodyfat. And when I say most, I am talking about 75-80%. The sad part is a big percentage of those people were NOT fat when they started bodybuilding. Yes, they got that way trying to "bulk up". I guess you can say they were successful at "bulking" if you consider fat to be "bulk". What they should have been doing is "muscling up". That is rarely done until the trainee is quite experienced. The yo-yo approach can work well if you are blessed with a great metabolism&#8230;&#8230;few are. Had they done it right they wouldn't be in that situation. But, past mistakes are best left in the past. This article is about how to leave those mistakes in the past where they belong, and give you some general guidelines about timed-carb dieting, which I FIRMELY believe is the best approach to dropping the bodyfat while at a bare minimum retaining 100% of your muscle mass, and in the VAST majority of cases, adding some muscle and lots of strength while shedding the unwanted fat.

Before I outline the timed carb strategy, I am going to go over the typical types of diets followed by those in search of their abs, and talk about the pros and cons of each technique. Lets get started!

Low calorie, low fat diets

This is probably the #1 approach taken by those that have taken the plunge into the realm of dieting and it also happens to be the #1 reason many are afraid to diet. Why are they afraid? Because past experience has taught them that when dieting, they lose hard-earned muscle. And with this type of diet you can EXPECT at least a 50/50 muscle to fat loss ratio! YES! You lose 10 lbs and at LEAST 5 is usually muscle!!! Why? You first need to understand a bit about bodyfat metabolism. Your body stores bodyfat as "reserve fuel" in case of famine. Which is not much of a problem in today's world in industrialized countries. OK, now you're fat and you decide to drop it using this approach. The problem is, that when carbs are present, the fat burning pathways, which are driven by an enzymatic process are SHUT-DOWN, because carbs produce the release of insulin in your system, and insulin stops the enzymatic processes that allows you to burn bodyfat as a fuel source.

But wait! Calories are too low to fuel basal metabolism, and since your body can't burn fat what is left? Ahhhh, you guessed it! Protein! Where does this protein come from? Well first your body will convert the recently ingested protein to glucose, but that still doesn't cover daily caloric demands. So what next? Yup, your body starts catabolizing it's own muscle to use as a fuel source, and&#8230;..you LOSE!

ISO-Caloric Diets

This is the diet made famous by Barry Sears of the "Zone Diet" fame. The idea here is to make the diet as balanced between protein/carbs/fats as possible and reduce insulin secretion as much as possible. These types of diets do quite a bit better at holding onto muscle while beating down the fat than low-cal, low-fat diets, but once caloric levels get low enough to drop bodyfat levels at a reasonable rate, you will still be chewing up a bunch of muscle unless on a LOT of gear, and you won't really be on an ISO ratio if you are going to be getting enough protein to build/maintain muscle. These types of diets (with additional protein skewing a true iso-caloric profile) are GREAT while adding mass, but not really what the bodybuilder needs to get rid of bodyfat. Same problem as listed above arises since carbs/insulin are still present.

Keto Diets

These diets are based on the fact that when you reduce carbs to ZERO, and keep it that way for a period of anywhere from 12 hours to 48 hours (dependant an a variety of factors) your body will shift from first burning carbs, to then burning fats, to ultimately converting fats into ketones, and using the ketones as the primary fuel source. The name given to this process is ketosis, hence the name keto-diet. Keto diets are protein sparing, which means your body will tend to hold on to protein (muscle) which is exactly what we want when dieting.

These diets do work extremely well for dropping bodyfat while holding onto muscle. Just what the aspiring bodybuilder wants. So what's the catch? Well&#8230;&#8230;the catch is that to achieve and stay in actual ketosis, you usually have to be carb-free about 2 days. These diets are typically done by going without any carbs for 5 days (sometimes 6) and then doing a 1 or 2 day "carb-up" and repeating the cycle. Sound simple? Try it and then tell me how easy it is. If you can breach that stumbling block, you then reach the second problem. Without ANY carbs for so many days performance in the gym suffers. So while these diets are protein sparing, they don't allow you to go all out in the gym, and you end up losing strength because you are held at reign in the gym. The third big reason they fail many is because with zero carbs, and low calorie levels, thyroid metabolism tends to get S-L-O-W-E-R. Bad thing! Even with these drawbacks, this is not a bad diet for dropping bodyfat and definitely many notches above the previously mentioned diets. But&#8230;&#8230;there is a better way! Enter timed-carb dieting!

Timed Carb Diets

A timed carb diet works on the same basic principle as a keto-diet. Take away the bodies preferred fuel source (carbs) and provide enough fat in the diet that the body will switch to using fat as the fuel. But instead of going 5-6 days without ANY carbs, this diet allows you to take in carbs when they are most needed, and least likely to spill over into fat stores-right after the workout. Also, since we are not worried about actually hitting ketosis and staying in ketosis, if you slip, or just feel the need to bump up carbs a bit to replenish glycogen stores, you didn't just bump yourself out of the ketogenic state you just spent 2 days to achieve.

What do these diets accomplish?

Fat is burned as the preferred fuel source and protein (read that muscle) is spared.

Performance in the gym stays good.

Thyroid function remains higher for a longer period of time.

You don't go out of your head waiting 5 days to eat some damn carbs!

OK, now the how-to of a timed carb diet. Again, we are trying to get the body to switch from being a carb or protein-burning machine into a fat burning machine. Remember, if caloric levels are low, and carbs, thus insulin is high, your body will convert protein to carbs via glucogenisys and that is to be avoided at all costs. Anyway, to get on the path of burning fat as fuel, we simply remove the carbs out of the equation, AND keep fat in the diet at (at least) a 40-50% ratio. This lets the body know there is still a primary fuel source (fat) and allows it to be burned as fuel, while sparing protein

So, we decide to start a timed carb diet on Monday. Sunday night you cut out the carbs about three hours before bed. When you wake up in the morning blood sugar levels will be very low, and your body will be wanting some carbs---too bad, it doesn't get any! You will eat only fat and protein. Ensuring fat makes up at LEAST 40% of the caloric profile. You may have a leafy green salad with oil based dressing, or some string-beans, or other such low-carb veggie, BUT NO MORE THAN 6-8 grams of carbs per feeding. You keep this up right until pre-workout, where an apple is allowed IF you feel the need to put a few carbs in your system to raise energy levels. MOST guys do not find this to be necessary and if it does not provide a big advantage DON'T do it. If the carbs don't help much, have a small protein drink and proceed with the workout.

Post-workout, and it's time to replenish the carb-stores in the muscles you just worked. As the vast majority of you already know, immediately after a hard weight training session there is a "window of opportunity" in the muscle cell when insulin sensitivity is very high and the body is most receptive to nutrient uptake. So&#8230;..you slam down 65-100 grams of fast liquid carbs (malto-dextrin, dextrose, and yes, even sucrose will work). About 10 minutes later follow it up with a 65-100 gram whey protein drink. As soon as you are hungry again, you can eat a small "regular" meal with a 40/30/30 protein/carb/fat profile to "top off the tank" of glycogen stores in the muscle. Then, you are back to zero or trace amounts of carbs until the next workout.

You then repeat the this format for a maximum of five days, and then have a 1-2 day carb-up. On days that you don't train, you don't eat any carbs except for a green salad or two. You do not have to run these no carb to carb days for the full five days and for many of you, having a lower ratio of no carb Vs. carb days will be advantageous. Also you do NOT have to do the carb days back-to back. You may do a couple of no carb days, followed by one or more carb days. This is determined on YOUR metabolism and how fast you want to drop the bodyfat.

Pretty simple huh? Well, I haven't given you ALL the details, but close enough to get most of you at least much closer to being able to put together a successful diet plan on your own, and if you want to have ALL the details in place, consider having me train you!

Do's and don'ts:

If you don't keep the fat ratio AT LEAST 40% your body will just continue to use carbs as fuel. How does this happen if all you are eating is chicken breasts as an example? Well your body has no problems converting protein to carbs and WILL do this if it doesn't sense an alternate fuel source (fats.)

This type of diet tends to work best with lower overall workout days, so if you are a volume trainer who is in the gym 6 days a week (bad idea in any case IMO) you will see decreased results since every day will be a carb day. It will still work however.

Log your food intake for at LEAST a week to ensure you are hitting your numbers for both macro-nutrient profile, and overall kcals. You might just find out how far off you are from where you "thought" you were.

Your carb-up days are designed to refill the glycogen stores in the muscle, and bump up caloric levels a bit to keep your thyroid off balance. They are not go all-out berserk pig-out days. MANY, MANY lifters make this mistake and cancel out all the fat loss they achieved up until the carb-up day(s).

Do cardio when dieting. No it is not mandatory, but it makes such a big difference for such little effort and time expended that is extremely short-sighted to not include it as part of your fat-loss plan.

Don't be in a big hurry to drop the bodyfat. You didn't get fat overnight (well, some of you almost did) so don't try to lose it overnight. You should work along the lines of about this much fat loss a week:

150-200 lb trainees, 1.5 lbs a week

200-250 lb trainees, 2 lbs a week

250+ 2 to 2-1/2b lbs a week

Going much more aggressive than that and strength gains will slow or stop, and catabolism may set in.

If you are just starting a reduced volume (or realistic training program) the scale may be worthless at first. Many people are able to gain a significant amount of muscle when dieting like this. Use the mirror and calipers (or better yet hydro-static weighing) to determine your rate of success.

You WILL end up looking flat by day 3-4, this is NOT representative of what you will look like when fully carbed-up. Remember, each gram of glycogen in the muscle brings 3 grams of water with it. When glycogen stores are down (and they will be) when doing low carbs you will "appear" smaller. It's just water, don't sweat it!

This type of diet lends itself well to getting a large percentage of daily caloric levels from protein powder and EFA's (essential fatty acids), and that makes it convenient to do.

I will at some point put out another article aimed at how to stay lean while adding mass, and as you might guess it is a variation of this basic format.

There you go, get that damn bodyfat off you and become a true bodybuilder. You know, one who isn't afraid to take his shirt off-lol.

And, again, If you want ALL the pieces of diet/routine and supplementation laid out for you including exact macronutrient and kcal requirements, consider having me train you!



*More timed carb diet options *
​
I am Many people here do time carb diets to drop body fat and preserve or build muscle while dieting. As previously stated in my timed carb diet article, no, or low carbohydrate diets with periodic carb ups, and always ensuring post workout carb ups are completed are the best way to get lean while not sacrificing muscle. And if implemented properly, strength and mass will be built while dieting.

The way these diets are typically structured is to have a set amount of days where low or no carbs are consumed unless it is a workout day, and then have specific carb-up periods to replenish glycogen stores, help keep thyroid output high, and give the trainee a break from the low carbs. This keeps performance good and keeps a trainee sane while dieting. Some people though can have a problem with having three to five days with low or no carbs. While I do feel that the standard plan is the best approach to doing this, and the fastest way to drop body fat, I also understand it is not for everybody, and modifications can be used for some of these trainees that won't do it the traditional way.

A typical time carb diet might be four days without carbs (training days get carbs PWO, and a normal meal after) and three days where carbs are consumed. This can be kind of rough on some trainees for various reasons. And some guys just don't have the mental fortitude to go if three to five days without consuming significant quantities of carbs. If they stick with it after approximately a week and a half to two weeks they will find energy levels are fine and performance stays good. But&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;. getting some people to do the whole two weeks can be difficult. And I have heard every excuse in the world as to why can't be done some very valid some absolutely horrible. I had one guy tell me if he went more than five hours without carbs he would pass out. What I pointed out that it was a miracle that he woke up after sleeping for five hours he backed off on his exaggeration about how bad it made him feel. And the reality is no one no one will pass out after not eating carbs or not eating for five hours. But some people like to be dramatic.

Here are some options for people that won't or don't want to take the traditional approach to a time carb diet:

An every other day timed-carb diet. Yes, this is exactly what it sounds like. On day one you consume low or no carbs. On day two, you have a normal carb day. Repeat process indefinitely. Pretty simple huh? It works, and works well as long as you understand that the rate of fatloss will be half or less than half of a normal timed carb diet. And of course you can play with the ratios indefinitely, so you can do two days no carbs, one day carbs or vice versa.

Another approach, and one that works well for people that tend to be somewhat hypoglycemic is doing a half-day no carb, half-day carb. What works best is consuming carbs in the morning and then having a carb cut-off at a specified time, say two o'clock in the afternoon. After your carb cutoff, no carbs are consumed and the diet consists of protein and fat. This will allow fat to be burned at a more rapid pace than if carbs are consumed during those hours. Of course it is a compromise, but significant amounts of body fat can be lost over time, and it is a pretty comfortable diet to do. That is unless you get visions of ice cream dancing in your head about eight o'clock while watching TV-lol.

Remember low-calorie moderate to high carbohydrate diets will drop scale weight. The problem is, a lot of the weight lost will be muscle because insulin shots down the enzymatic process that allows body fat to be liberated. Insulin control is really what we are after here, no carbs = no insulin= body fat liberated = muscle preserved--simple as that! I hope these options gave you a couple more ideas for those that are hesitant or just don't have the willpower to go too long without their favorite carbs.

full credit to Iron Addict


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## Jimmy1

ahh

the dieting mind games are getting you already paul!!

i remember the days of sifting through piles of bb'ing mags for the answers!!LOL


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## SarahM

hi,

im new to the board n have only recently got interested in bb through my bf

can this way of losing fat also work for women? my goal like most i think is abs lol


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## big

SarahM said:


> hi,
> 
> im new to the board n have only recently got interested in bb through my bf
> 
> can this way of losing fat also work for women? my goal like most i think is abs lol


Yes, it works excellently for both men and women.


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## 3752

as Big has already stated it is very good for both men and women i used this method to drop 7 stone off my sister in 18months..


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## hackskii

Very nice article Paul.

I did pick something up out of that which I was going to do but forget.

Add a carb directly after training.

I am doing more of the iso diet now and can see muscle loss.

Dude, that was a sweet article.

Very cool.


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## winger

That should be a sticky!


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## 3752

it so it will be...


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## hackskii

Oh, Took that advice and loaded up a bit yesterday and for the next two and a half days I will do no carb.

This will be fun too.

I liked how my diet is going and I like this even better.

Going to track this very closely.


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## 3752

i do this scott...it is my refeed day today tomorrow and monday will be no carbs and by thursday my body is screaming out for carbs..


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## Skull

Hi, great article. Can you post us up some meal suggestions to get a good idea of getting the ratio's correct. Obviously i realise that we are all different and have different calorific requirement but some meal plan outline would be great (especially on non training days) hope you can help, thanks


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## 3752

if you take a look at my log in the AAS section you will be able to veiw my exact meals with quantity's and daily amounts for the last 8 weeks whilst dieting..


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## Skull

Pscarb said:


> if you take a look at my log in the AAS section you will be able to veiw my exact meals with quantity's and daily amounts for the last 8 weeks whilst dieting..


Sorry but I must be real thick as I just cant find your log?


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## 3752

http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/showthread.php?t=11456


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## scott134

Awesome post. Thanks.

just wanted to ask, if I was following the 'no cabrs for the last part of the day' variation. What's the best time of day to weight train? Would you say early morning before breakfast? then eat carbs until, say 2pm. Ortrain in the afternoon and finish my carbs on my PWO meal?

Thanks.


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## TERESKAN

im very intrested in the timed carb approach to dieting and would like to find some more info on it, below is a little info on me:

Age:25

height: 6'

weight 290

bf: getting done on tuesday( waist is 38)

max squat: 200k for 6

max deadlift: 220k for 6

max bench: 170k for 5

current cycle

1-6 60mg anavar ED

1-10 500mg tren E

1-15 1000mg EQ

1-16 800mg test e

im currently on week 13

been running 500iu hcg on mondays and thursdays.

during PCT im going to run DNP @200mg for up to 30 days running 5on 2off maybe bump to 300mg depending on how i react to it.

I want to start a cutting diet to bring my body fat down to sub 10% i should imagine i could loose a good 50lb to get me to this stage and have a good 5 months to achieve this goal.

Any info and help on achieving this would be greatly apprishiated


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## Jock

I would hold off cutting for a while mate, your test levels will be low after a fairly heavy cycle and jumpin straigh into a cut could compromise some of the muscle you've gained.

I'm studying up on timed carb diets too with a view to doing one very soon, as I understand it, it involves around 4 low carb dieting days 2 medium carb days and one high or refeed day, zig-zagging your carb intake is a good way of foolong your metabolism into speeding up. Just remember on low carb days you need to replace the lack of calories from carbs with 'good' fats and keep your protein intake at arounf 1.5g per lb opf your bodyweight.

You have some impressive lifts and stats mate, I'm sure with some hard work and dedication you would look awesome.

Jock


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## TERESKAN

Im gonna give it a few weeks before i start messing with my diet, hopefully the dnp will shift a lot of the fat whilst im running my pct. Most people have reposted losses of anything up to 20lb in a month and also i will hopefully find out more about the anabolic rebound effect that is talked about with dnp


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## Jock

DNP is very very dangerous stuff mate, be very careful using it, a guy from elitefitness died while on this stuff. Make sure you are fully read up on this med knowledge may well be your guardian.

A good diet is the foundation of any successful cut IMO.

Best of luck,

Jock


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## TERESKAN

I have a lot of info on the usage of dnp and intend of starting on a low dose of 200mg ed and following the usage protocol to the T. prob gonna take a week of work so my body can adjust to it.


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## hackskii

Some guys feel like death on DNP, others not so bad.


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## TERESKAN

finally got weighed in:

height 6' 185cm

weight 287lb 130kg

body fat: 23.5%

LBM: 219.5 lb 100kg

want to get down to 8% body fat so nead to hit 242lb.,


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## winger

TERESKAN said:


> finally got weighed in:
> 
> height 6' 185cm
> 
> weight 287lb 130kg
> 
> body fat: 23.5%
> 
> LBM: 219.5 lb 100kg
> 
> want to get down to 8% body fat so nead to hit 242lb.,


Those are some pretty impressive stats mate!


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## TERESKAN

slowly getting their, would be good in the next year to add a extra 10lb-20lb lbm. looking forward to seeing what it looks like under the lard.


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## hackskii

But you are carying alot of muscle there.


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## TERESKAN

im carying some but in my eyes it still doesn't feel like enough. im half dreading cutting down to 240 and feeling/looking small!


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## hackskii

TERESKAN said:


> im carying some but in my eyes it still doesn't feel like enough. im half dreading cutting down to 240 and feeling/looking small!


I dont know of any 240 pounder looking small, unless you were 8 feet tall.


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## SD

So back on topic.....

Been trying this Timed carb diet this week and so far so good!

First impressions are that I like low carb food more than I thought I would and I am re-discovering the joy of cheese  only occasionally as a treat of course.

I am on day three now and have really noticed an odd taste in my mouth all day and I think I had ketone breath earlier as I could smell it whilst wearing my motorcycle helmet. Checked my urine and there was only trace ketones if any at all though  ??

Another thing I have noticed is that I need to pee more and that my sh1t is less porridge and more grenade 

I am sticking to 4000 cals per day in 6 meals of around 666cals (bad omen) with no more than 8g of carbs, mainly from green veg, and at least 40% fat in each meal from EFA's. I rack up a huge amount of protein in each day 500+ grammes  , so I hope I don't de-calcify my whole body, just in case I am taking a calcium supplement even if research shows it doesn't do jack.

Question is, to actually lose body fat I need to reduce cals right? otherwise all I am burning is ingested fat?

Surely I should be ketoned to the max by now also? I won't be re-feeding till the weekend so I have a couple more days to deplete any carbs.

I would like to hear from anyone else who is trying this, Jock have you started it yet?

Regards

SD


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## hackskii

Well, day 3 might be a tad bit early to get into full ketosis.

That and some times, to get into ketosis you need more fat.

I think if you upped the fat and lowered the protein you will get into ketosis faster.

I also hear MCT oil will toss you into ketosis almost immediatly as this is a prefered fat for fuel.

Try dropping the protein some and making up the diffrence in MCT oil (coconut oil).


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## winger

hackskii said:


> Well, day 3 might be a tad bit early to get into full ketosis.
> 
> That and some times, to get into ketosis you need more fat.
> 
> I think if you upped the fat and lowered the protein you will get into ketosis faster.
> 
> I also hear MCT oil will toss you into ketosis almost immediatly as this is a prefered fat for fuel.
> 
> Try dropping the protein some and making up the diffrence in MCT oil (coconut oil).


There is your answer and nice post hackskii.

In the Atkins book it actually says if you cant get into ketosis then up the fats. In the book it allows for 20 grams of carbs (in the induction phase). So if you are not in ketosis (under the 20 grams of carbs) you have to up the fats.

I do believe calories in equals calories out, but for 25% of the people that might not jive sucka!


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## SD

Thanks Bro's!

I will try to get some coconut oil, not sure if they have it in Tesco's but will look on Saturday.

My fats today are higher than before as I am running out of chicken  so will see how it goes today.

I hadn't weighed myself till this morning and in only three days I have dropped 2.5 kg! thats a lot of shed water, about 5 pints or 2.5 litres, no wonder I was peeing all the time and was thirsty at the same time. I also notice more quad definition so I am happy to believe that it wasn't all intra muscular water but some from the skin also. If only it had all been fat 

Will test urine for ketones later and update.

Regards

SD


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## hackskii

As many times as I tried to get into ketosis, I was always only trace amounts.

I never have been into full blown ketosis.


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## SD

Day four and still only barely trace ketones  ON a plus side though Paul has put a Low Carb recipe section in the forum, so I have posted my recipes for this week there :beer1:

SD


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## crazycacti

i must be an exception - i get into ketosis really, really quickly - 2 days and i'm in... i hardly rely on keto sticks anymore - just now and again to check really


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## winger

crazycacti said:


> i must be an exception - i get into ketosis really, really quickly - 2 days and i'm in... i hardly rely on keto sticks anymore - just now and again to check really


I say we ban crazycacti........lol. 

In ketosis, you will never burn more fat, period!


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## SD

winger said:


> I say we ban crazycacti........lol.
> 
> In ketosis, you will never burn more fat, period!


What do you mean Wingman? Ketosis is the state gained when you burn fat preferentially for fuel though isn't it?

SD


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## winger

SportDr said:


> What do you mean Wingman? Ketosis is the state gained when you burn fat preferentially for fuel though isn't it?
> 
> SD


Yes and the byproduct is ketones.


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## SD

So what dod you mean when you said in Ketosis you will never burn more fat period! That was a little abstract for me :crazy: 

SD


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## crazycacti

don't worry winger... i've got you - we're on the same wavelength, lol!!


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## hackskii

I think he ment that fat loss is excellerated during ketosis.


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## mickus

Haya PsCarb

Just wanted to say awesome post mate this was exactly what i was looking for, I was just about to post a message asking all those sorta questions problem solvered 

Cant wait to give it a run!!!

Cheers mate


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## winger

SportDr said:


> So what dod you mean when you said in Ketosis you will never burn more fat period! That was a little abstract for me :crazy:
> 
> SD


Let me dumb it down for ya! :crazy:



hackskii said:


> I think he ment that fat loss is excellerated during ketosis.


Bingo.

SD, I hope you wont question the word bingo. 

During carb cycling, I really think very few people will ever get into ketosis. The key to carb cycling is to keep the body guessing. Me thinks.


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## SD

Lol cheeky Wingnut!

I finally reached ketosis yesterday, was the day before my reefeed though, oh well! I had ++ ketones on the stick which went an exciting shade of purple 

There were a couple of things that were different though, my meal number 2 wasn't really eaten, it was 300g cold smoked mackeral with spinach and Udo's, at 10am I just couldn't face it, so I ate the spinach and a few forks of the fish, then left it so I was down on my cals by 500 approx. Also I had a little sex session for 30 minutes, not a mills and boon type romance sex, but hardcore shagg1ng if you know what I mean. I tested my post coital p1ss et voila, lots of ketones! So was it the fact that it was day 5 of very low carb diet, or that I was cal depleted that day, or because I had sex for the first time that week (she had a cold the thoughtless b1tch  ) just before, or a combination of the above??

I am also another 1/2 kilo down, making 3 1/2 kilos (water probably) total in 5 days, double result!

Maybe the key to kikstarting the ketosis is cardio?

SD


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## Jock

Sounds good mate (the shagging and the ketosis!)


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## hackskii

I would try and stay in ketosis for now and drop the refeed.

See if you stay in ketosis.

I see this as the body using alot of fat for fuel, glycogen stores are probably depleted but if you are in ketosis alot of fat is being burned for fuel.

That fat is comming from you and your fat you are taking in.

It might even be the udos oil that tossed you into ketosis.

I do know there are a couple of things that will push you into ketosis, very low carb and alot of fat.

Id sit there for a couple of days and check your urine for ketosis.


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## winger

I agree with hackinspank.

You are in ketosis because of lack of carbs. Not calories but carbs and carbs only. Course shagging is always good, but not for ketosis. 

I also would not carb cycle as of yet. You just now got your body into the ultimate fat burn state so why comprimise that?

Do the low carb (not exceding 20 grams of carbs) diet for 14 days and tell me how much weight you lost.

You should be around 10-14 lbs.

Some people feel slugish or tired. I feel on top of the world. We are all different.

Ask your bird how the gizz tastes when you are in ketosis. Oopsie, that is a DB question. My bad.


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## SD

Thanks guys,

Read your posts a little late as I started re-feed on Friday evening after training. As all my training is at the weekend, I have my PWO refeeds at a time when I am refeeding anyway, so only 2 1/2 carb days per week. My workouts were amazing though, good pumps and more defintion, the missus even spotted it straight away. My biceps more defined and so are my traps, loving this diet!

Other thing was, I am seriously stronger than before, odd as I am at the **** end of a Test E & Prop cycle, using prop only e3d. Was the best workout I had in a long time.

I did as PsCarbs article said, 90g simple carbs (dextrose & WMS) with 2 scoops 60g of whey Isolate, straight after training. I have got to cap some more CEE, I am sure that would have made it even better!!

SD


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## pyrowill

Hi Guys,

Thinking about trying this diet to see what it's like, I did Atkins ages ago for 2 weeks and lost quite a bit, gave up though since it didn't seem to be a long term option. Has anyone had any experiences of finishing this regime and finding the results disappear quickly? I'm currently 15st10 and would like to be 13st.

Thanks


----------



## Return2Glory

Hi, excellent read. Diet is definately where I have massive room for improvement.

Can anyone recommend some receipes for this where you get the minimum 40% fat?? Struggling to work out where to get the fat from appart from fish.


----------



## pecdecmike

Guys... I am running at 23%BF (yeah...high!) as a result of my 1 year long bulking diet.... my gains have almost stopped so change to routine and perhaps increased cals needed... but fundamentally, if I switch to either

1. timed carbs or

2. (more manageable) 'no carbs after 1pm' (although I will have carbs in my PWO shake in evening - is this allowed?)

Will I still gain strength and size while redicing bodyfat?

Or should I ditch the reduced carbs options and go back to increasing cals and training more intensely, but adding cardio in (I havent doen lo-intensity or other cardio for over a year now... notime!)

I want to gain lean muscle and strength, but also reduce BF - I have read elsewhere on the board that this IS theoretically possible, but in practice difficult as I also have a job!

Apologies for straying off topic!


----------



## hackskii

Yes you can lose bodyfat and gain muscle at the same time, but remember if you do too much aggressive dieting you will lose more lean muscle mass.

The idea behind the carb cycling is taking advantage of being insulin sensitive post workout.

John Berardi(sp) suggested that half the amount of your daily supply of protein can be taken PWO.

Now, I am not so sure I believe that entirely but I get the principle and understanding of such.

I found very good results with at the least the last meal or two were fats and protein and I found this effective for fat loss.

Carbs first thing and PWO are good.

Rob Faigan has a fantastic book out on this, very well written.


----------



## johnny813

Do you think it would be possible for somebody who has been on a timed carb diet to post there full diet up? I struggle to see how id eat anywhere near enough cals without oats rice pasta or potatoes thanx alot


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## Captain Hero

hackskii said:


> Well, day 3 might be a tad bit early to get into full ketosis.
> 
> That and some times, to get into ketosis you need more fat.
> 
> I think if you upped the fat and lowered the protein you will get into ketosis faster.
> 
> I also hear MCT oil will toss you into ketosis almost immediatly as this is a prefered fat for fuel.
> 
> Try dropping the protein some and making up the diffrence in MCT oil (coconut oil).


What is an MCT oil Scott?


----------



## hackskii

Cap said:


> What is an MCT oil Scott?


Medium Chain Triglyceride


----------



## PIP13

Hi please check out my diet an excercise and any advice would be welcome to help me start body building.


----------



## 3752

PIP13 said:


> Hi please check out my diet an excercise and any advice would be welcome to help me start body building.


pip please dont flood lots of threads asking for guys to look at your diet thread many will look and give their thoughts in time


----------



## musio

2 years old but a brilliant sticky.

Wanted to ask has anyone got any examples of non-carb day diets/food lists to follow? It seems hard creating a non-carb few days and surviving..


----------



## 3752

in my opinion you should not totally avoid carbs you should still have veg...this is one of the carb free days i use..

Meal 1

6 whole omega eggs + 50g Kol Les cheese

Meal 2

2 scoops protein drink + 50g Peanut butter

Meal 3:

250g extra lean mince made into 2 burgers or meatballs + veg

Meal 4:

2 scoops protein drink + 50g Peanut butter

Meal 5WO

2 scoops whey protein

Meal 6:

250g Salmon + Veg


----------



## Tall

Pscarb said:


> in my opinion you should not totally avoid carbs you should still have veg...this is one of the carb free days i use..


Agreed. Green Fibrous veg shouldn't be counted towards your carb intake.


----------



## hackskii

High fiber vegetables take alot of energy to break them down.

Kind of like dieting and being able to eat at the same time.


----------



## musio

Thanks for being brave enough to post your meals pscarb. Looks like you up the shakes to get your protein in - that's the worry i had.

Some Questions:

How do you personally find your energy levels? I can't have a good workout without eating right that day so it must be hell to train...

How hard have you found it not to let your metabolism go into shutdown/conservation mode?

Lastly, how often are you on timed carbs - all year round?!

Will stock up on me greens, thanks!


----------



## Taylor01

just a quick question about this diet, how will it affect your insulin sensitivity, because the way i figure it , less blood sugar spikes = less insulin response = higher sensitivity.

Although i'm probably wrong lol, so could someone please clarify?


----------



## hackskii

Taylor01 said:


> just a quick question about this diet, how will it affect your insulin sensitivity, because the way i figure it , less blood sugar spikes = less insulin response = higher sensitivity.
> 
> Although i'm probably wrong lol, so could someone please clarify?


You are actually right.

But exercise also induces insulin sensitivity, so after a workout you could probably fudge this more than if you didnt exercise, as glycogen stores would be filled PWO.


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## Taylor01

ah good good i'm now trying to make up for years of eating takeaways and generally being a fatty while i'm still young enough to care. lol


----------



## Taylor01

I've found that the only thing i'm missing on this is having oatibix and a shake for breakfast as i was before so for a cleanish carb up today i've just finished at the gym so i'm having 4 oatibix with a bit of lactose free milk and a shake. and maybe an apple . awesome. guess my tastes are changing for the better as i'd rather have this than a big greasy chinese. lol


----------



## dal

gents. great info. i was depleting myself from carbs for long cycles and not refeeding properly. i came down from 94 kilo to 84 kilo pretty quick, to quick. half the weight lost was fat but more importantly the other half was muscle. lesson learnt.

I have slowly been carbing up the last month or so and feel in much better shape. my diet is planned for the timed carb approach but im a bit stuck on the good fats. i have flax oil, fish oil, olive oil. is there any others that can be added to help the process.

many thanks.


----------



## Taylor01

nuts/nut butters(all natural ones tho). i've heard of udos oil blend but dont know much about it


----------



## 3752

UDO's is good and many use it i don't because it taste's rank and it is a perfect blend of Omega 3/6/9 so eating any other fats would knock that out....


----------



## hackskii

Pscarb said:


> UDO's is good and many use it i don't because it taste's rank and it is a perfect blend of Omega 3/6/9 so eating any other fats would knock that out....


It is ok in orange juice, it floats at the top and the juice chases it down, other than that I cant take it any other way and it does not mix well with anything other than another oil....lol


----------



## darkstar

Awesome article i want to follow this diet to a tee to finally rid my bit of fat that always get back on my stomach.

Does anybody feel like posting up a simple diet for the entire week.

I already have read PSCARBS supa low to no carb day.

Ive read just about every dang thread in here sometime it seems.

This is such a good one maybe someone could post up a weeks worth of the diet and show timing of carb intake befor and or after workout.

Im really struggling with the last little tummy flab and i do not want to lose any power trying to shave it off.

PSCARB you could proably cut and paste it.

Im doing whole body workouts 4 times a week and then next week ill do split perhaps 5 days depending on how i feel.

Cardio is kept fairly short at perhaps 30 to 45 mins .

I just need the entire week put on paper including app. amount of time spent training on the days.

Or just point me to where a sample week diet is

Thank you very very much

Darkstar


----------



## darkstar

I started today basing it on diets ive seen here.

Goes like this:

Monday - Low carbs

Tuesday - Low carbs

Wednesday - Med carbs

Thursday - Low carbs

Friday - Med carbs

Saturday - Low carbs

Sunday - High carbs

High - c 300g+, p 150g, f 50g

Med - c 150g, p 250g, f 75g

Low - c 50g, p 250g, f 100g

Ok my number one question is how do i add in the carbs and how many carbs?

And which foods can i choose from?

I know im ok to add in some befor and after a workout.

Im really really into fruit peaches, plums,

Ive been working really hard to get rid of this post cycle tummy that crept up on me so im down 7 pounds already but some of it is muscle no doubt.

So this morning i had two pork chops for brekky i know pork is not the best ...

Then ill have several eggs and full fatt cottage cheese.

Then leafy salad with oil dressing.

Then id like to get ready for a workout so ???


----------



## darkstar

I should start my own thread please feel free to move me.

Im already seeing all my favorite beverages are out i drink a half a gallon of orange juice daily.

Geeese nothing but water so far.

And only 5 hours into it i already eaten 5 pork chops and a bunch of swiss cheese yet im starving .

I suppose last night counts as well nothing but chicken strips ,lot of umm, and leafy greens.


----------



## saigiddy

Hi i am new to this board but not new to bodybuilding as such, I have read through the Timed Carbs post, posted by pscarb and its absolutely awesome and makes alot of sense although i have one question..... Do you include the carbs/protein/fat of your post workout shake as your daily allowance ? For example i am using a 50/40/10 fat/protein/carbs split. I have worked out at my bodyweight that i should not be exceeding 68g of carbs per day .... but in the original post it is suggested the post workout shake to contain 65 - 100g of fast liquid carbs. Would the post workout shake be my entire source of carbs for the day ?

Thanks

J Harrison


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## hackskii

Bump for PScarb:

Do you include the carbs/protein/fat of your post workout shake as your daily allowance ?


----------



## gymfreak182

hi, ok so with the timed carb diet, every meal must be carb free apart from PWO (i understand that) so every meal during the day must only contain protein & efa's. would i still be eating 6 times a day, is it right saying that every meal would contain just either tuna,chicken,turkey, beef steak,olives, olive oil,flax seed oil & oil fish, what other foods can i get fats from?

cheers, Anthony


----------



## gymfreak182

hi, ok so with the timed carb diet, every meal must be carb free apart from PWO (i understand that) so every meal during the day must only contain protein & efa's. would i still be eating 6 times a day, is it right saying that every meal would contain just either tuna,chicken,turkey, beef steak,olives, olive oil,flax seed oil & oil fish, what other foods can i get fats from?

cheers, Anthony


----------



## saigiddy

gymfreak182 said:


> hi, ok so with the timed carb diet, every meal must be carb free apart from PWO (i understand that) so every meal during the day must only contain protein & efa's. would i still be eating 6 times a day, is it right saying that every meal would contain just either tuna,chicken,turkey, beef steak,olives, olive oil,flax seed oil & oil fish, what other foods can i get fats from?
> 
> cheers, Anthony


Eggs are also very very useful, especially the omega 3 eggs. Theyre very convient to have for breaskfast to give you a good intake of protein and fats. Also i tend to use whole earth natural peanut butter made by meridian (available in holland and barrat), Although you will get a couple of carbs in there, you will also get a good amount of protein and LOTS of fats..... and you dont have to be absolute zero carbs every meal, im sure you can allow for about 2-4g carbs per meal if need be.


----------



## The Bam

Pscarb great post a quick one for you

so timed carbs is primarily keto diet but post workout you can still have carbs as usual ?

and this doesn't knock you out of ketosis ?

cheers mate


----------



## gibbsy07

Pscarb said:


> in my opinion you should not totally avoid carbs you should still have veg...this is one of the carb free days i use..
> 
> Meal 1
> 
> 6 whole omega eggs + 50g Kol Les cheese
> 
> Meal 2
> 
> 2 scoops protein drink + 50g Peanut butter
> 
> Meal 3:
> 
> 250g extra lean mince made into 2 burgers or meatballs + veg
> 
> Meal 4:
> 
> 2 scoops protein drink + 50g Peanut butter
> 
> Meal 5WO
> 
> 2 scoops whey protein
> 
> Meal 6:
> 
> 250g Salmon + Veg


Hi Pscarb i enjoyed reading your sticky, and all the posts that followed, but in your non carb day which you posted in a previous thread you are taking a pwo shake but you didn't mention, if you took maltodextrin or any simple carbs with it, i am not trying to pick up on your mistakes or anthing but just wanted to no if you always took a simple carb after your workout when on this diet or do you just leave it out some days, just want to be straight on that, also is it possible to get into ketosis on this diet because you are chopping and changing all the time, i noticed in an earlier post that greek goddess said this diet worked great for her so maybe she could answer this one please.

So just one last question, i need to consume around 3.200 calories to mantain my weight each day so if i was to go on this diet do i have to drop my calories, by say 500 to lose fat or weight or does my daily intake remain status quo and there is no calorie deficit, just low carb, if anyone can help with these questions i would appreciate it thanks.


----------



## gibbsy07

I thought a forum was to help people not ignore them, seriously bad crack.


----------



## winger

gibbsy07 said:


> do i have to drop my calories, by say 500 to lose fat or weight or does my daily intake remain status quo and there is no calorie deficit, just low carb, if anyone can help with these questions i would appreciate it thanks.


Drop your calories by 500. That will be 3500 calories a week which equates to 1 lb a week, so I heard.


----------



## gibbsy07

Hi winger,thanks for answering, but when Pscarb talks about the timed carb diet, he doesn't mention droping any calories, or being at a calorie deficit, when on the timed carb diet, but the other two diets that he uses as bad examples or not very good diets, because you may lose muscle on these ones, he talks about dropping calories, so that is where the confusion lies for me if i go on the timed carb diet do i drop some calories or do i keep my calories the same, help,thanks.


----------



## winger

gibbsy07 said:


> Hi winger,thanks for answering, but when Pscarb talks about the timed carb diet, he doesn't mention droping any calories, or being at a calorie deficit, when on the timed carb diet, but the other two diets that he uses as bad examples or not very good diets, because you may lose muscle on these ones, he talks about dropping calories, so that is where the confusion lies for me if i go on the timed carb diet do i drop some calories or do i keep my calories the same, help,thanks.


That is a discussion that is big on every bb board actually.

In my opionion, if every bb diet when getting ready for a contest reduces carbs and keeps the same protein and fats, were do you reduce calories?

You need protein (building muscles) and you need fats (for optimum health)

so why not reduce carbs?

For every protein and carb gram it is 4 calories, but for every fat gram it is 9 calories, so some will think, hey, if I reduce fats I will be lean. Why not think like that, it is over double the calories, but maybe we need the fats and protein, so were do we take the calories from then?

Carbs, now what if we choose the lower glycimic carbs?

Fruits and veggies are superior, imo.


----------



## gibbsy07

Hi winger i am just an average guy not cutting for comps, or anything like that just want to lose some fat off the gut that i got from bulking up,im 5 7'' and about 170 pounds so not very big but earned some muscle over the years, but have been thinking about a keto style diet for a while now but afraid i may lose some muscle, so the plan was 170g of protein a day or maybe more and get the rest from good fats to make up the rest of my daily cals which would probably be around 3.400 cals, but when i read pscarbs timed carbs diet it didn't sound just as quite extreme as the full keto diet, but the only thing is he wasn't really as specific that if you were on the diet you would have to drop some calories from either fat consumption or protein, carbs won't really matter cause you are only taking maybe 10 to 50 grams of carbs a day anyway unless you are on a training day.

On training days we no we are aloud some simple carbs and a meal maybe two hours later with carbs,fat protein, i no he says that there is a chance you coud gain muscle when on this diet but in my opinion if you shaved off say 500 cals of your daily amount chances of building muscle would be thin especialy for me cause i am a bit of a hard gainer, but not on my gut lol, if pscarb could answer some of my questions i would appreciate it or if anyone else who has tried this diet, would they tell us how it went for them, and if they did shave some cals just in order to lose some weight thanks.


----------



## gibbsy07

Hi winger how do i send a private message, to cause i want to send a private message to pscarb, but not sure how to thanks.


----------



## winger

Go to the members list and pick out the person and click on their name, a drop down menu will come up and send that person a private message.

You can do it on my name for practice. 

I have done the low carb (less than 20 grams of carbs) and respond very well to that, but I am not a big carb guy anyway. Starchy carbs bloat me and make me fat, I mean fatter...lol

If you stay very low carb, like 20 grams you will fall into ketosis and your body and mind will use ketones for fuel after about 3-4 days and you will loose body fat, unless your taking in more calories than your body can burn. It really is simple math.

I think the reason why guys carb cycle is to keep the body guessing and that is always good cause the body adapts so fast.

But on the flip side of that coin, if you do have a carb up day you might fall out of ketosis.


----------



## gibbsy07

Thanks mate i knew how to do it but the option wasn't there lol cause i hadn't sent enough posts, i really like the sound of the keto diet and have been desperate to go on one for ages just to get rid of the gut, but i have always been afraid that i will lose too much muscle, chicken i know, but i am not a big guy only 170lbs and 5 7'', and i guess all the talk about percentages of protein and fats, is daunting for me cause maths has never been my strong point lol and there is allot of intelligent guys, and girls on these forums, but i guess i will just have to go for it and learn on the way


----------



## winger

Give it a shot, every body responds differently anyway. If it does't work then just chalk it up as a learning experience, but if it does work, you can post up the pics.


----------



## gibbsy07

Hi winger i appreciate the help so far man, you said you have done low carb, what one did you do was it the dave polumbo one everyone is talking about on this site or was it another one, i have read threw dreds dp diet so far, but i can't seem to find a direct link to where the origanal dave polumbo diet is do you have a link for it please, i can only find just bits of it, and do you honestly think that low carb is the best way to go to lose body fat, as opposed to a normal low calorie diet, its just i downloaded a diet a few weeks back called,the truth about six pack abs, and the guy isn't totally against the low carb diet but he does say you lose weight far too fast and he doesn't see that as a good thing, he also says you lose water and musccle, what do you think winger thanks.


----------



## ba baracuss

Is any kind of fat OK for this approach?

I'm considering mixing shakes with coconut milk, which is mostly saturated fat, I believe.


----------



## winger

gibbsy07 said:


> origanal dave polumbo diet is do you have a link for it please,


Snipped from another web site.

The premise of the diet is high protein (about 1- 1 1/2 gram per pound), moderate fat (about 1/2 g per lb) and low low carbs (no direct sources of carbs). During this diet, the brain goes into ketosis (it uses ketone bodies for energy-- fats) and thus the energy requirements by the body can almost all be supplied by fats (which you'll be taking in plenty of). The only activity that uses carbs will be the weight workout which may use 40grams per workout. You will get these 40g indirectly through the foods you'll be eating. As a backup, the cheat meal you'll be having once per week will provide a storehouse of glycogen (glucose) in case of emergency. So, you see, very little gluconeogenesis in the liver will be occurring. If we keep cortisol low (by

restricting STIMULANTS) we'll ensure that muscle is spared!

HAVE YOUR CHEAT MEAL ON THE SAME DAY EVERY WEEK, last meal of the

day so you dont cheat again.

Fiber helps burn fat! Everyone should take fiber 2x per day. Fiber actually helps increase the absorption of calcium.

When following my diet plan (which includes getting your brain into ketosis), there can be NO starchy carbs eaten!

For a 200lb man:

MEAL #1

5 whole eggs (make sure to buy OMEGA-3 EGGS from the supermarket. They contain virtually NO saturated fat and tons of good OMEGA-3 fats); add another 4 egg whites to this (they don?t need to be the Omega-3 ones; you can use liquid egg whites)

MEAL #2

SHAKE: 50g Whey Protein with 1 ? tablespoon of All Natural Peanut butter (no sugar)

MEAL #3

"Lean Protein Meal": 8oz chicken with 1/2-cup cashew nuts (almonds, or walnuts)

MEAL #4

SHAKE: 50g Whey Protein with 1 ? tablespoons of All Natural Peanut butter (no sugar added)

MEAL #5

"Fatty Protein Meal": 8oz Salmon, Swordfish, or RED MEAT with a green salad (no tomatoes, carrots, or red peppers) with 1 tablespoon of Olive Oil or Macadamia nut oil and vinegar

MEAL #6

SHAKE: 50g Whey with 1 ? tablespoon all natural peanut butter or 4 whole (Omega-3) eggs and 4 extra whites

For a 250lb+ man:

Meal 1 6 whole Omega-3 eggs

Meal 2 8oz chicken with 1/2 cup raw almonds

Meal 3 50g whey with 2 tablespoons all natural peanutbutter

Meal 4 8oz salmon with 1 cup asparagus with 1 tablespoon macadamia nut oil

Meal 5 50 g whey with 2 tablespoon PB

Meal 6 6 whole eggs

Remember, it takes 3-4 days to get into a strong ketosis where your brain is using ketone bodies (fats), instead of carbs, for energy. Be patient.

Many times I'll switch to an alternatiing diet where one day it will be protein/fat......then another protein/vegetables (very little fat). The great thing about the body and fat is that ESSENTIAL FATTY ACIDS can be stored in the muscle for several days, up to 2 weeks......therefore, once an adequate storehouse of Essential Fats are built up, the body can be "tortured" a little and it still won't give up muscle (that's assuming you're still taking in adequate protein. Protein can't be stored).

1oz almonds equals 6g carbs (2 of those grams are fiber) and 2oz equals 12g of carbs.

With the beef meal (any fatty protein meal), you should have the green salad with 1 tablespoon of Olive or Mac oil INSTEAD of the nuts. Only eat the nuts with the LEAN PROTEIN MEAL (chicken, turkey, lean fish)

The best fat sources come from the essential fatty acids-- Omega-6 and Omega-3's. Most of us get plenty of Omega-6s from cooking oils, ect..........however the Omega-3's are harder to get. I recommend WHOLE OMEGA-3 EGGS, FaTTY FISHS like SALMON and SWORDFISH and TUNA and MACKEREL, ALMONDS and WALNUTS have some OMEGA-3's (as well as OMEGA-6s). ANother great fat source is MONOUNSATURATES such as EXTRA VIRGIN OLIVE OIL and MACADAMIA NUT OIL.....they aren't essential but they are great for the metabolism (great source of energy) and they are extremely good for your heart.

You're not getting any indirect sources of carbs (just from the 1 spoonful of PB.... you may want to have at least one 1/3cup nuts meal. Remember, Olive or Macadamia nut oil is predominantly a MONOUNSATURATED FAT (good for the heart, but not essential)........ the nuts, and fish oil have the essential fats in them. Also, with regard to FLAX SEED OIL, the OMEGA-3 Fatty Acids found in them (alpha-linolenic acid) has a very poor conversion to DHA and EPA (Essential Omega-3 intermediates) in the HUMAN........therefore, you're much better off taking in FISH OILS (that already contain DHA/EPA) than FLAX SEED OIL.

Once fat loss slows, I always increase cardio first, then I increase the amount of fat burners (clen, cytomel, lipolyze).........After those other methods are exhausted, only then, do I play with the diet.

Always eat BEFORE lifting........never BETWEEN lifting and cardio.

Artificial Sweetners:

The artificial sweetener itself (eg. aspartame, sucralose) wont cause a problem. It's what some companies complex it with. For example, EQUAL and SPLENDA combine their aspartame and sucrolose with 1g of maltodextrin........whereas, in diet drinks, they don't do that. So, diet drinks are okay, SPLENDA and EQUAL must be used in moderation (STEVIA BALANCE is fine though since they use inulin fiber instead of maltodextrin

Forget using:

-MCT's are a waste when you're dieting. If you're gonna use FATS for an energy source, they might as well serve a function in the body. MCTs are useless. They can only serve as a source of energy!

-Arginine is not going to do anything. It will DO something; just not dramatic.

Cardio:

CARDIO should be performed at a low intensity (under 120bpm heartrate). This will ensure that you use FAT as a fuelsource since as your heartrate increase, carbohydrates begin to become the preferred fuel of choice for the body. When on a low carb diet, you're body will break down muscle and turn that into carbs. Remember, Fat CANNOT be changed into carbs. Therefore, for bodybuilding, the rule of cardio should be LONG DURATION, LOW INTENSITY

never do less than 20 min per session

The BOTTOM LINE is that low intensity cardio (while you might need more of it) ensures that fat is utilized and muscle is spared (especially while on my high protein/moderate fat/low carb diety).

Do you feel the treadmill is better for cardio, or is the bike(stationary or recumbent) just as good? As long as the intensity is LOW, it doesn't matter which piece of equipment you use

Q&A:

Q: Is gluconeogenesis inevitable in your diet?

Dave Palumbo: NO

Q: If so do I need to consume more than 1.5 grams of protein per lb of LBM so as not to lose muscle?

Dave Palumbo: The fat spares the protein....when the brain is in ketosis, the carbohydrate requirements are very very low.

Q: How much (percentage) of my protein intake would be turned into glucose (gluconeogenesis)?

Dave Palumbo: Very little (maybe 10%)

Q: What do you think of submersion in cold water as a means of burning bodyfat (thermogenesis)?

Dave Palumbo: HOCUS POKUS!

Q: How about drinking lots of cold water (I think this was even suggested by Elligton Darden) to help lose bodyfat?

Dave Palumbo: RIDICULOUS

Q: Do you think drinking lots of Green Tea is beneficial to fat loss?

Dave Palumbo: Somewhat helpful.

Q: How much is the ideal dosage of Omega 3 for a 220 lb. individual ?

Dave Palumbo: Try to take in about 9g per day

Q: How many Tbs of peanut butter could I have instead of 1/2 cup of cashewnuts?

Dave Palumbo: 2 tablespoons, two tablespoons of Peanut Butter contains 190 calories and 16 grams of fat (so 1.5 tablespoon equals about 12 grams fat) ...whereas......... 2oz (1/3 cup) almonds (about 40 almonds) = 12g fat

Q: I want to add that if I cant find the omega eggs here locally. Can I use international egg whites and just take an omega supplement?

Dave Palumbo: You can get away with 5 whole eggs (regular ones) once a day........not a big deal. You'll be burning up all that fat anyway.

Q: Whats the max cups # of coffee ( no sugar ) can consume on Dave's diet ?

Dave Palumbo: Try to limit to 2 cups per day.......I realize that towards the end of the diet you may need more to help you get through the day.

Q: If you cook tilapia in macadamon nut oil?do you coun't the oil as your fat for that meal! Depends how much you use.

Dave Palumbo: If you just grease the pan with it, no!

Q: what is the protein,carb and fat ratio for offseason

Dave Palumbo: 50% Protein, 25% fat, 25% carbs

Q: and the ratio for contest prep.

Dave Palumbo:60% protein, 30% fat, 10% carbs

Tons more info:

THE PALUMBO DIET - talk about it... - Muscular Development Forums

Outline of Dave Palumbo's Diet For Cutting - Page 9 - Bodybuilding.com Forums


----------



## winger

I just found this and downloaded it and scanned it and it is clean, but I wont open it up, it's an .exe file.

So if anyone wants to try it out click here.

I will wait.

It's down now. Weard, maybe I shouldn't have closed the window..lol


----------



## gibbsy07

This is great winger thanks for that, i am going to start this diet soon, i have just ordered some supplements, going to to do a bit more reading on this, and hopefully by next sunday i can start it and just see where it takes me, btw what was the download it didn't work.

The bit about the cardio is really interesting cause everyone seems to have a different opinion on this when i say every body i mean the experts, first they say high intensity is better then they so low no wonder everyone gets confused, but the low intensity does make sense, cause if it was high it does sort of make sense that the body is going convert which is the easiest available which is the muscle into carbs. thanks again mate.


----------



## gibbsy07

This is great winger thanks for that, i am going to start this diet soon, i have just ordered some supplements, going to to do a bit more reading on this, and hopefully by next sunday i can start it and just see where it takes me, btw what was the download it didn't work.

The bit about the cardio is really interesting cause everyone seems to have a different opinion on this when i say every body i mean the experts, first they say high intensity is better then they so low no wonder everyone gets confused, but the low intensity does make sense, cause if it was high it does sort of make sense that the body is going convert which is the easiest available which is the muscle into carbs. thanks again mate.


----------



## gibbsy07

Hi mate ok if my calculations are correct, with my body weight which is around 170lbs, each day i am allowed around 1865 cal's, wow that's allot of cal's to lose, now i understand when you take out carbs it is virtually half of your cal's gone so you don't have to worry about shaving any cal's off cause the carb loss takes care of that, now the penny drops lol, do you think that amount of cal's is ok mate it sounds a bit extreme but if it works i'm willing to go for it.


----------



## hackskii

I think that thread may have been deleted from Dave himself and hitting the highway.

Good thing you grabbed it.


----------



## gibbsy07

Hi hackskii do you think those calculations for 170lb guy are ok?

Why is he deleting the thread, thanks.


----------



## gibbsy07

Hi hackskii do you think those calculations for 170lb guy are ok?

Why is he deleting the thread, thanks.


----------



## hackskii

gibbsy07 said:


> Hi hackskii do you think those calculations for 170lb guy are ok?
> 
> Why is he deleting the thread, thanks.


You can get creative on any diet.

The keto diet is pretty simple, no more than 30 grams of carbs a day, all the fats and protein you want.

Generally most people wont overfeed on that diet.

A casual refeed every 4 days or so would be great.

If you keep your carb sources to low GI carbs and supplement with a good multivitamin mineral supplement and fish oils, along with some fiber, no worries.


----------



## winger

gibbsy07 said:


> Hi mate ok if my calculations are correct, with my body weight which is around 170lbs, each day i am allowed around 1865 cal's,


It really depends on what percent of body fat you are at.

I was tested electronically and my lean muscle mass was 170 lbs. With out any training I think mine was at about 1900 to maintain.

So unless your body fat is really low, 1865 might be a few to many calories.

I would track how many calories it takes to maintain your body weight with training and cardio, then reduce that by 300-500 calories. Do not exceed 500 calories. Does that help?


----------



## gibbsy07

Hi winger i reckon my percentage is around 16%, so would you say that is in the medium catagory for body fat, so do you still think 1865, cal's would be a bit too much, the thing is i am a bit afraid to go too low because i lose weight really easily, and i don't mean fat i mean muscle, so i think i do want to tread a bit carefully with this, what do you think thanks.


----------



## winger

gibbsy07 said:


> Hi winger i reckon my percentage is around 16%, so would you say that is in the medium catagory for body fat, so do you still think 1865, cal's would be a bit too much, the thing is i am a bit afraid to go too low because i lose weight really easily, and i don't mean fat i mean muscle, so i think i do want to tread a bit carefully with this, what do you think thanks.


I think it depends on how much activity you do. Calories in and calories burned.

A lean guy bulking will add 3 lbs of muscle and 2 lbs of fat for 5 lbs. This is just something I heard so don't quote me on this...lol

On the flip side, a lean guy cutting for every 5 lbs it will be 3 lbs muscle loss for every 2 lbs of fat.

A heavy guy bulking will add 2 lbs of muscle and 3 lbs of fat for 5 lbs.

A heavy guy cutting will loose 3 lbs of fat and 2 lbs of muscle for 5 lbs.

Personally because you did ask, I would try 1700 calories only eating fruits and veggies for your carbs.

Still need to know your activity level.

Only you can experiment. I would set up an online journal and track your weights and diet, that way I am not shooting in the dark.


----------



## gibbsy07

Hi mate just one other thing about this diet, that i may find it kind of hard, eating fish i really struggle with this cause they all pretty much taste the same, tuna mackeral sardines to me pretty much all taste the same to me anyway maybe not for others, and i find fish very dry and hard to choke down, if i have it with some toast i am fine but bread is out so that isn't an option, i like chicken but again it is kind of dry unless you have it with some gravy or sauce, in fact sauce and gravy is pretty much my secret weapon when it comes to eating pretty much everything cause i do find allot of meats are dry, so sauce and gravy really helps me out there, but i no this won't be an option again because they will have carbs in them, so if you have any good tips on making your meats just that little bit easier to swallow i would appreciate any help thanks.


----------



## winger

I am not a big fish guy either, but I do love raw (sashimi) salmon. I love that stuff, but you have to get the fresh stuff and you will pay out the ying yang for it.

Ideally you should cycle your proteins, Eggs, fish, turkey, chicken, beef, pork.

Eggs are best, followed by fish and so on, notice the order..lol

Drink your protein shakes, do what you have to do to maintain your protein intake while training. You will be fine, try not to over think this, it is too easy.

Try this, start a journal and link it right here. I don't want to take over PSCarbs thread...lol.

Hell ask away, advice is free. Either way I am here for ya mate.


----------



## gibbsy07

thanks mate much appreciated.


----------



## gibbsy07

Hi winger getting ready to start this diet but i noticed that the guys on this diet are having two tablespoons of natural peanut butter, but this contains around 4 carbs, so won't the carbs creap up on you if you are having say two to three protein drinks a day, lets say with three drinks a day counting the 2 carbs that are in the protein, thats around 16 carb's a day just from protein drinks will this be ok?

Also is it better at the start when you are going low carb to go a full two weeks, then at the weekend have your refeed, then after that have a reefeed each following week, and lastly is cheese ok cause it has hardly any carbs at all but i no it contains fats thanks.


----------



## winger

As far as the first two weeks low carb, that's what Atkins does. He calls it the induction phase, that's no more than 20 grams of carbs. Your carbs should come from low carb vegetables. But hey, it's a numbers game so 20 grams is still 20 grams, but low glycemic carbs would be optimum, IMO.

*
*

*
Digestible carbs vs. Fiber Carbs:* When you're counting carbs you only need to count "Digestible" carbs. These are the carbs that come from sources other than fiber. Fiber carbs are not digested and have no effect on insulin levels. So...if the item has 10 grams of carbs, and 3 grams of fiber is listed below it, you can count 7 grams in your daily allotment.

Eat the peanut butter if you want, it is a low carb diet and peanut butter is mostly fat and protein so enjoy and eat the cheese too.

Cheat days at the end of the week after the induction part, not sure actually. We will need to see how much you loose. If you lost zero weight then I would probably say you don't get a cheat meal....lol


----------



## gibbsy07

So it is just one week induction mate then a cheat meal if i lose weight lol, did you have cheat meals when you were on low carb winger, btw forgot to mention love the avatar thanks.

sorry one other thing i would like to ask is this diet harder if you are doing it natural, what i mean is will your strength be sapped allot quicker, if not on gear thanks.


----------



## winger

Two weeks induction, that's just to get the body ready, stick to the plan mate.. :whistling:

I feel better on this diet than normal eating, but that's just me.

I would say that if you eat enough protein and eat the clean high fiber low glycemic carbs you should actually be fueling the body better than you ever have, so give it a go and stop trying to over analyze things.

I don't use gear and this type of diet is best for my body type. Not saying it will work for you but until you try it, who knows.

Any more questions?


----------



## gibbsy07

Thanks mate i just got a bit confused when you said atkins does the two weeks induction, so i thought the same didn't apply to this, cause it was DP diet, but you definately have got me pegged lol, cause i do always over analyze things, but i guess everyone has there own traites lol, anyway hope it does work for me as well thanks.


----------



## winger

One of the nice things about a low carb diet is your hunger for food isn't as bad. Have you ever eaten a candy bar and 2 hours later you crave another candy bar? This doesn't happen on a low carb diet.

Keep us posted gibbsy. :thumbup1: Do you have a journal?


----------



## gibbsy07

No not yet not really sure how to set one up but i will keep you posted cheers mate.


----------



## gibbsy07

Hi mate thats me started, but been reading through the dred thread again and i am rethinking my protein content again verses fat do you think i should go with my lean weight times the 1.5g or my full body weight, as i said just been reading through stuff again and there is always the possibility that i could take in too much protein and not get into ketosis, or not take in enough fat, and not get into it, but i was just thinking if i took more protein then there would be less chance of losing muscle, what do you think lean bodyweight or full bodyweight, i just want to try and get the right balance thanks.


----------



## winger

gibbsy07 said:


> Hi mate thats me started, but been reading through the dred thread again and i am rethinking my protein content again verses fat do you think i should go with my lean weight times the 1.5g or my full body weight, as i said just been reading through stuff again and there is always the possibility that i could take in too much protein and not get into ketosis, or not take in enough fat, and not get into it, but i was just thinking if i took more protein then there would be less chance of losing muscle, what do you think lean bodyweight or full bodyweight, i just want to try and get the right balance thanks.


Try it with the full bodyweight.

The only thing holding you back from going into Keytosis would be your carbs and not enough fats. IMO


----------



## gibbsy07

Ok winger i will do that, the only reason i was queeying things is cause my protein intake is 247g per day and my fat is only 82g, is that ratio ok, just that i have been reading that it is good to have your fats high at the beginning cause it may be easier to enter ketosis,btw these stats are based on 1.5g p and 0.5g fat, what polumbo recommends, and miltiplying them by my weight which is round about 165lbs,thanks.


----------



## winger

Well that's 988 calories from protein and 738 from fats. That equals 1726 plus your 20 grams of carbs, or there abouts equals 1806.

Can you do that? Diets are all about what you can and cant do. I say go for it and lets tweak it together.

In my ever so humble opinion I would venture to say you will do very very well on that.

1806 calories is a bit high for your size, but lets see how a keto diet works (together), you can always reduce calories to get where you want to be.

Give me a time line of when you are going to do this....he he.


----------



## anabolic ant

i feel educated a bit better now i have read that piece!!!!

nice article,everything seems to make a bit more sense as for fighting the fat...one thing you didnt pick up on was the fluid intake,or water intake should i say..is there any guidelines for fluid,increased intake,or decreased intake for set days,times etc etc???

also,i hate to sound like a boff,and by no means taking away from your brill article(you know your stuff,and i'm learning all the time,cos most of what i learnt was theory anyhoo)...is that any source of fuel the body uses other than glucose/monosachs(glycolysis)...is called gluconeogenisis...and most fat burning is through beta-oxidation pathway!

also i like what your saying about using fat for fuels...a lot of long distance and endurance racers have come to master this,i think if fat for fuel is taken on,then this will prime the body for using fats more,until carbs are introduced,but doesnt carbs have a sparing effect on protein...i'm guessing if protein level intake is high then fat will take the emphasis off tapping protein for energy!

are you trying to get carb depletion totally down,like say from muscle and liver glycogen stores totally out?

sorry for all the questions,i am learning from your folk unquestionable experience!!!!

are all the fats ingested from essential fatty acid sources only,not bad fatty acids at all...dont know if thats a silly question?

and one last question,sorry...boring everybody now...but will the EFA's and protein stop the insulin ups n downs as with carb ingestion?

just wanna get all this right as i have never really properly dieted before...and wanna start experimenting with some of your methods outlined!!!!


----------



## gibbsy07

i started it on sun the 8th feb about 10 pm mate and so far virtually carbless lol today i got up late for work tho well i say late but i made it in to work on time but the diet was a total mish mash, mate just before i managed to get out the door tho i had a protein drink, with peanut butter so got in nearly the right macros, and brought some fish pate with me to work, i wasn't so sure about that tho cause it was peppered and had other stuff in it, but it said trace carbs on the tin, i will post the ingredients when i get it again to see if it gets the thumbs up, so that with green beens, then later protein with peanut butter again, and when i got home i had two chops with cheese, spinach brochlie, and some colliflower, so for my mad rushing about i think i did not too bad lol, is diet coke ok i had a can of that early on, but i have been drinking my water also.

oh just remembered as well had hellmans light mayonaise, does that get the thumbs up mate, cause it makes things more tasty and less dry lol, anyway going to give this a good go cheers.


----------



## winger

Ant, was that directed towards me or PSCarb?

Gibbsy, the diet coke is ok and so is the hellmans light mayonnaise.


----------



## gibbsy07

this is too weird mate, it's like waiting around for a full moon, and then turning into a werewolf lol,been on it from sunday now don't feel any different apart from more energy, yes definately more energy, just waiting on the dip,but not happened yet,this was the meals today winger.

meal 1) 3 raw eggs, 3 raw egg whites,1 fish capsule

meal 2)protein shake,two scoops,around 38g peanut butter 1 tablespoon.fish capsule

meal 3) chicken breast 1 and 1/4 fillets,sprinkle of cheese, hellmans,and salad leaves,fish capsule

meal 4 two pork medalions,prob around 45g p sprinkle of cheese, brochlie about a cup,and a couple of peices of colliflower, hellmans mayonaise.

meal 5) protein shake, same as above,fish capsule

meal 6 a can of sardines hellmans mayonaise,some spinach n brochlie

what do you think mate do you think i am over doing it on the veggies, and do you think i need more fat in there

oh yes sups,mv,gla capsules simalar to epo,from my protein,and ph

i no i need about 41g p and 14g f so i am trying to get these equall amounts over each of my six meals, what do you think thanks


----------



## anabolic ant

winger said:


> Ant, was that directed towards me or PSCarb?
> 
> erm *both*...more response will be better...cos i wanna start to experiment and try these things out...i know how the body works biologically,but want to make it practical...and you folk have the experience and know whats what!!!!


----------



## winger

anabolic ant said:


> i feel educated a bit better now i have read that piece!!!!
> 
> nice article,everything seems to make a bit more sense as for fighting the fat...one thing you didnt pick up on was the fluid intake,or water intake should i say..is there any guidelines for fluid,increased intake,or decreased intake for set days,times etc etc???
> 
> also,i hate to sound like a boff,and by no means taking away from your brill article(you know your stuff,and i'm learning all the time,cos most of what i learnt was theory anyhoo)...is that any source of fuel the body uses other than glucose/monosachs(glycolysis)...is called gluconeogenisis...and most fat burning is through beta-oxidation pathway!
> 
> also i like what your saying about using fat for fuels...a lot of long distance and endurance racers have come to master this,i think if fat for fuel is taken on,then this will prime the body for using fats more,until carbs are introduced,but doesnt carbs have a sparing effect on protein...i'm guessing if protein level intake is high then fat will take the emphasis off tapping protein for energy!
> 
> are you trying to get carb depletion totally down,like say from muscle and liver glycogen stores totally out?
> 
> sorry for all the questions,i am learning from your folk unquestionable experience!!!!
> 
> are all the fats ingested from essential fatty acid sources only,not bad fatty acids at all...dont know if thats a silly question?
> 
> and one last question,sorry...boring everybody now...but will the EFA's and protein stop the insulin ups n downs as with carb ingestion?
> 
> just wanna get all this right as i have never really properly dieted before...and wanna start experimenting with some of your methods outlined!!!!


Ant, if that is you in your avatar and I suspect it is, I can't help you.

I will let PSCarb answer those questions..lol

Why do I feel like I am being drawn into a lions den? :whistling:


----------



## anabolic ant

winger said:


> Ant, if that is you in your avatar and I suspect it is, I can't help you.
> 
> I will let PSCarb answer those questions..lol
> 
> Why do I feel like I am being drawn into a lions den? :whistling:


yep,me in my avatar winger...hey,no lions den here!!!

i firstly gotta say sorry to pscarb,because he clearly stated that its an article written by iron addict...i'm such a twit sometimes!!!!

but still would like some answers from you chaps...as i need the knowledge and experience!!!!!


----------



## hackskii

id like to share, but not just right now............lol..............bump...... 

Bumping this thead for my un educated, illerate, ummmmm, compromised thoughts.......lol Did I mention non technicqual(sp...lol), and ignant......Seeeeeeee?

Does anybody see?

Can a mod please ban me for a day?

I wonder if I can do that.....lol


----------



## winger

one thing you didnt pick up on was the fluid intake,or water intake should i say..is there any guidelines for fluid,increased intake,or decreased intake for set days,times etc etc??? Not sure, but high protein means high urea, so yea more water. One parallel of all diets that I have noticed is water.

also,i hate to sound like a boff,and by no means taking away from your brill article(you know your stuff,and i'm learning all the time,cos most of what i learnt was theory anyhoo)...is that any source of fuel the body uses other than glucose/monosachs(glycolysis)...is called gluconeogenisis...and most fat burning is through beta-oxidation pathway! If a body is void of carbs, the body falls into ketosis. The body then uses keytones for fuel and actually likes it.

also i like what your saying about using fat for fuels...a lot of long distance and endurance racers have come to master this,i think if fat for fuel is taken on,then this will prime the body for using fats more,until carbs are introduced,but doesnt carbs have a sparing effect on protein...i'm guessing if protein level intake is high then fat will take the emphasis off tapping protein for energy! Not sure, but once again the body uses keytones, so if a high protein diet with high fat and low carbs does that, then hey bring on the keytones for energy.

are you trying to get carb depletion totally down,like say from muscle and liver glycogen stores totally out? Not sure, but according to the Atkins diet, he recomends not to exceed 20 grams of carbs and if you don't fall into ketosis to take in more fat, so bring on the bacon...lol

sorry for all the questions,i am learning from your folk unquestionable experience!!!!

are all the fats ingested from essential fatty acid sources only,not bad fatty acids at all...dont know if thats a silly question? All fats. I would imagine on this type of diet, animal fats will be very high.

and one last question,sorry...boring everybody now...but will the EFA's and protein stop the insulin ups n downs as with carb ingestion? Yes, unless you eat lots of food, then no matter how low of carb you can still spike insulin, trust me on that...lol

just wanna get all this right as i have never really properly dieted before...and wanna start experimenting with some of your methods outlined!!!!

Sorry PSCarb for hijacking your thread.


----------



## hackskii

winger said:


> one thing you didnt pick up on was the fluid intake,or water intake should i say..is there any guidelines for fluid,increased intake,or decreased intake for set days,times etc etc??? Not sure, but high protein means high urea, so yea more water. One parallel of all diets that I have noticed is water.
> 
> also,i hate to sound like a boff,and by no means taking away from your brill article(you know your stuff,and i'm learning all the time,cos most of what i learnt was theory anyhoo)...is that any source of fuel the body uses other than glucose/monosachs(glycolysis)...is called gluconeogenisis...and most fat burning is through beta-oxidation pathway! If a body is void of carbs, the body falls into ketosis. The body then uses keytones for fuel and actually likes it.
> 
> also i like what your saying about using fat for fuels...a lot of long distance and endurance racers have come to master this,i think if fat for fuel is taken on,then this will prime the body for using fats more,until carbs are introduced,but doesnt carbs have a sparing effect on protein...i'm guessing if protein level intake is high then fat will take the emphasis off tapping protein for energy! Not sure, but once again the body uses keytones, so if a high protein diet with high fat and low carbs does that, then hey bring on the keytones for energy.
> 
> are you trying to get carb depletion totally down,like say from muscle and liver glycogen stores totally out? Not sure, but according to the Atkins diet, he recomends not to exceed 20 grams of carbs and if you don't fall into ketosis to take in more fat, so bring on the bacon...lol
> 
> sorry for all the questions,i am learning from your folk unquestionable experience!!!!
> 
> are all the fats ingested from essential fatty acid sources only,not bad fatty acids at all...dont know if thats a silly question? All fats. I would imagine on this type of diet, animal fats will be very high.
> 
> and one last question,sorry...boring everybody now...but will the EFA's and protein stop the insulin ups n downs as with carb ingestion? Yes, unless you eat lots of food, then no matter how low of carb you can still spike insulin, trust me on that...lol
> 
> just wanna get all this right as i have never really properly dieted before...and wanna start experimenting with some of your methods outlined!!!!
> 
> Sorry PSCarb for hijacking your thread.


Nice


----------



## winger

I really hate giving advice. I got sucked up into this only because the guy that started the thread and is so much more qualified than I didn't answer any questions.

I hold Paul in such high regard, but if you start something you should finish it...lol

Not an attack big man!

Let me say, carbs (not fruits and vegetables) for me only make me fat and tired. Stick to the low glycimic carbs and you will be fine. I have said it before, you only look as good as your carb selection. Starchy carbs do not work for me. But, if you are trying to gain weight, starchy carbs are the sh1t.


----------



## hackskii

What if the starchy carbs are consumed by some fast metabolisims like my 9 year old daughter?

She can live on plain sugar and probably not complian.........

This will change with age for sure......

I have seen this myself


----------



## winger

hackskii said:


> What if the starchy carbs are consumed by some fast metabolisims like my 9 year old daughter?
> 
> She can live on plain sugar and probably not complian.........
> 
> This will change with age for sure......
> 
> I have seen this myself


Your daughter is lean and on the move, please.. :whistling:

Still not good though.

Has anyone noticed the belly on the young kids as of lately?

Junk food, eat what God put on this earth and be glad.


----------



## gibbsy07

Hi hakski not all kids are the same tho, so i think it must come down to the individual, my daughter is the same she eats allot of crap, but i bet you if she sat down and had tatties n mince, and 3 square meals a day she would put weight on, but i'm no expert.


----------



## Chris4Pez1436114538

bump 4 read in the morning i like the hacks bros debates lol!


----------



## winger

Chris4Pez said:


> bump 4 read in the morning i like the hacks bros debates lol!


Stir it up why don't ya. :whistling:


----------



## Chris4Pez1436114538

winger said:


> Stir it up why don't ya. :whistling:


Now would i do that :innocent: :whistling: :whistling: :whistling:

You know me mate i dont do things like that especially on here now BOI maybe PMSL

:beer: :thumb:


----------



## winger

Chris4Pez said:


> Now would i do that :innocent: :whistling: :whistling: :whistling:
> 
> You know me mate i dont do things like that especially on here now BOI maybe PMSL
> 
> :beer: :thumb:


Yea not on BOI, it is such a reputable board and all. :whistling:


----------



## Jux

Bit of a tit's question but are the weights for meats cooked or uncooked?

Thanks.


----------



## mrjv

I am looking to move onto a timed-carb / cycling diet after two weeks on a Keto diet. Just want to clarify the following if I may:



Pscarb said:


> So&#8230;..you slam down 65-100 grams of fast liquid carbs (malto-dextrin, dextrose, and yes, even sucrose will work).


Is it not the case that only glucose/dextrose should be used here, since the fructose component of sucrose will need to be stored in the liver first? Is this to combat the effects of cortisol - or am I missing the point completely?

Thanks.


----------



## .Quaks

I just made a thread requesting advise, this is great. Thank you!


----------



## scot.r111

Hi there,

This stuff is really, really useful for newbies like me. It makes a complicated subject, reasonably easy to understand.

I like the sound of this diet compared to the keto diet and will be giving it a go.

Ta


----------



## Natural1

IronAddict is a man that seriously knows his stuff.


----------



## Stork

Okay so I'm gonna start introducing dextrose to my post workout shakes (am on keto cycling atm) when I next stall on squats and see if it makes a difference to my strength gains.

Will report back.


----------



## Surferph34

I have a few questions regarding this iet I was hoping to get help with.

Calories are cut 300 below maintainance and then calories are calculated according to this number?

Are the ratios for this Diet then 40/40/20 on training days, and 50/50 on non training days?

On Carb up days, what is entailed?

Is its a typical 40/40/20 split with all meals on these days at maintainance levels to put thyroid out.

Or is it this split 40/40/20 with only one meal rather than just 50/50?

Or even, is it a typical day of fats and Carbs with a cheat meal?

Thanks :thumbup1:


----------



## Dipster

Very good reading


----------



## Ineisa

Pscarb said:


> Found this whilst trawling through the net it is a very good approach and very close to the carb cycling that i do....
> 
> it was written by IronAddict...
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Most of the people that come to me seeking personal training advice have their number one priority listed as dropping bodyfat. And when I say most, I am talking about 75-80%. The sad part is a big percentage of those people were NOT fat when they started bodybuilding. Yes, they got that way trying to "bulk up". I guess you can say they were successful at "bulking" if you consider fat to be "bulk". What they should have been doing is "muscling up". That is rarely done until the trainee is quite experienced. The yo-yo approach can work well if you are blessed with a great metabolism&#8230;&#8230;few are. Had they done it right they wouldn't be in that situation. But, past mistakes are best left in the past. This article is about how to leave those mistakes in the past where they belong, and give you some general guidelines about timed-carb dieting, which I FIRMELY believe is the best approach to dropping the bodyfat while at a bare minimum retaining 100% of your muscle mass, and in the VAST majority of cases, adding some muscle and lots of strength while shedding the unwanted fat.
> 
> Before I outline the timed carb strategy, I am going to go over the typical types of diets followed by those in search of their abs, and talk about the pros and cons of each technique. Lets get started!
> 
> Low calorie, low fat diets
> 
> This is probably the #1 approach taken by those that have taken the plunge into the realm of dieting and it also happens to be the #1 reason many are afraid to diet. Why are they afraid? Because past experience has taught them that when dieting, they lose hard-earned muscle. And with this type of diet you can EXPECT at least a 50/50 muscle to fat loss ratio! YES! You lose 10 lbs and at LEAST 5 is usually muscle!!! Why? You first need to understand a bit about bodyfat metabolism. Your body stores bodyfat as "reserve fuel" in case of famine. Which is not much of a problem in today's world in industrialized countries. OK, now you're fat and you decide to drop it using this approach. The problem is, that when carbs are present, the fat burning pathways, which are driven by an enzymatic process are SHUT-DOWN, because carbs produce the release of insulin in your system, and insulin stops the enzymatic processes that allows you to burn bodyfat as a fuel source.
> 
> But wait! Calories are too low to fuel basal metabolism, and since your body can't burn fat what is left? Ahhhh, you guessed it! Protein! Where does this protein come from? Well first your body will convert the recently ingested protein to glucose, but that still doesn't cover daily caloric demands. So what next? Yup, your body starts catabolizing it's own muscle to use as a fuel source, and&#8230;..you LOSE!
> 
> ISO-Caloric Diets
> 
> This is the diet made famous by Barry Sears of the "Zone Diet" fame. The idea here is to make the diet as balanced between protein/carbs/fats as possible and reduce insulin secretion as much as possible. These types of diets do quite a bit better at holding onto muscle while beating down the fat than low-cal, low-fat diets, but once caloric levels get low enough to drop bodyfat levels at a reasonable rate, you will still be chewing up a bunch of muscle unless on a LOT of gear, and you won't really be on an ISO ratio if you are going to be getting enough protein to build/maintain muscle. These types of diets (with additional protein skewing a true iso-caloric profile) are GREAT while adding mass, but not really what the bodybuilder needs to get rid of bodyfat. Same problem as listed above arises since carbs/insulin are still present.
> 
> Keto Diets
> 
> These diets are based on the fact that when you reduce carbs to ZERO, and keep it that way for a period of anywhere from 12 hours to 48 hours (dependant an a variety of factors) your body will shift from first burning carbs, to then burning fats, to ultimately converting fats into ketones, and using the ketones as the primary fuel source. The name given to this process is ketosis, hence the name keto-diet. Keto diets are protein sparing, which means your body will tend to hold on to protein (muscle) which is exactly what we want when dieting.
> 
> These diets do work extremely well for dropping bodyfat while holding onto muscle. Just what the aspiring bodybuilder wants. So what's the catch? Well&#8230;&#8230;the catch is that to achieve and stay in actual ketosis, you usually have to be carb-free about 2 days. These diets are typically done by going without any carbs for 5 days (sometimes 6) and then doing a 1 or 2 day "carb-up" and repeating the cycle. Sound simple? Try it and then tell me how easy it is. If you can breach that stumbling block, you then reach the second problem. Without ANY carbs for so many days performance in the gym suffers. So while these diets are protein sparing, they don't allow you to go all out in the gym, and you end up losing strength because you are held at reign in the gym. The third big reason they fail many is because with zero carbs, and low calorie levels, thyroid metabolism tends to get S-L-O-W-E-R. Bad thing! Even with these drawbacks, this is not a bad diet for dropping bodyfat and definitely many notches above the previously mentioned diets. But&#8230;&#8230;there is a better way! Enter timed-carb dieting!
> 
> Timed Carb Diets
> 
> A timed carb diet works on the same basic principle as a keto-diet. Take away the bodies preferred fuel source (carbs) and provide enough fat in the diet that the body will switch to using fat as the fuel. But instead of going 5-6 days without ANY carbs, this diet allows you to take in carbs when they are most needed, and least likely to spill over into fat stores-right after the workout. Also, since we are not worried about actually hitting ketosis and staying in ketosis, if you slip, or just feel the need to bump up carbs a bit to replenish glycogen stores, you didn't just bump yourself out of the ketogenic state you just spent 2 days to achieve.
> 
> What do these diets accomplish?
> 
> Fat is burned as the preferred fuel source and protein (read that muscle) is spared.
> 
> Performance in the gym stays good.
> 
> Thyroid function remains higher for a longer period of time.
> 
> You don't go out of your head waiting 5 days to eat some damn carbs!
> 
> OK, now the how-to of a timed carb diet. Again, we are trying to get the body to switch from being a carb or protein-burning machine into a fat burning machine. Remember, if caloric levels are low, and carbs, thus insulin is high, your body will convert protein to carbs via glucogenisys and that is to be avoided at all costs. Anyway, to get on the path of burning fat as fuel, we simply remove the carbs out of the equation, AND keep fat in the diet at (at least) a 40-50% ratio. This lets the body know there is still a primary fuel source (fat) and allows it to be burned as fuel, while sparing protein
> 
> So, we decide to start a timed carb diet on Monday. Sunday night you cut out the carbs about three hours before bed. When you wake up in the morning blood sugar levels will be very low, and your body will be wanting some carbs---too bad, it doesn't get any! You will eat only fat and protein. Ensuring fat makes up at LEAST 40% of the caloric profile. You may have a leafy green salad with oil based dressing, or some string-beans, or other such low-carb veggie, BUT NO MORE THAN 6-8 grams of carbs per feeding. You keep this up right until pre-workout, where an apple is allowed IF you feel the need to put a few carbs in your system to raise energy levels. MOST guys do not find this to be necessary and if it does not provide a big advantage DON'T do it. If the carbs don't help much, have a small protein drink and proceed with the workout.
> 
> Post-workout, and it's time to replenish the carb-stores in the muscles you just worked. As the vast majority of you already know, immediately after a hard weight training session there is a "window of opportunity" in the muscle cell when insulin sensitivity is very high and the body is most receptive to nutrient uptake. So&#8230;..you slam down 65-100 grams of fast liquid carbs (malto-dextrin, dextrose, and yes, even sucrose will work). About 10 minutes later follow it up with a 65-100 gram whey protein drink. As soon as you are hungry again, you can eat a small "regular" meal with a 40/30/30 protein/carb/fat profile to "top off the tank" of glycogen stores in the muscle. Then, you are back to zero or trace amounts of carbs until the next workout.
> 
> You then repeat the this format for a maximum of five days, and then have a 1-2 day carb-up. On days that you don't train, you don't eat any carbs except for a green salad or two. You do not have to run these no carb to carb days for the full five days and for many of you, having a lower ratio of no carb Vs. carb days will be advantageous. Also you do NOT have to do the carb days back-to back. You may do a couple of no carb days, followed by one or more carb days. This is determined on YOUR metabolism and how fast you want to drop the bodyfat.
> 
> Pretty simple huh? Well, I haven't given you ALL the details, but close enough to get most of you at least much closer to being able to put together a successful diet plan on your own, and if you want to have ALL the details in place, consider having me train you!
> 
> Do's and don'ts:
> 
> If you don't keep the fat ratio AT LEAST 40% your body will just continue to use carbs as fuel. How does this happen if all you are eating is chicken breasts as an example? Well your body has no problems converting protein to carbs and WILL do this if it doesn't sense an alternate fuel source (fats.)
> 
> This type of diet tends to work best with lower overall workout days, so if you are a volume trainer who is in the gym 6 days a week (bad idea in any case IMO) you will see decreased results since every day will be a carb day. It will still work however.
> 
> Log your food intake for at LEAST a week to ensure you are hitting your numbers for both macro-nutrient profile, and overall kcals. You might just find out how far off you are from where you "thought" you were.
> 
> Your carb-up days are designed to refill the glycogen stores in the muscle, and bump up caloric levels a bit to keep your thyroid off balance. They are not go all-out berserk pig-out days. MANY, MANY lifters make this mistake and cancel out all the fat loss they achieved up until the carb-up day(s).
> 
> Do cardio when dieting. No it is not mandatory, but it makes such a big difference for such little effort and time expended that is extremely short-sighted to not include it as part of your fat-loss plan.
> 
> Don't be in a big hurry to drop the bodyfat. You didn't get fat overnight (well, some of you almost did) so don't try to lose it overnight. You should work along the lines of about this much fat loss a week:
> 
> 150-200 lb trainees, 1.5 lbs a week
> 
> 200-250 lb trainees, 2 lbs a week
> 
> 250+ 2 to 2-1/2b lbs a week
> 
> Going much more aggressive than that and strength gains will slow or stop, and catabolism may set in.
> 
> If you are just starting a reduced volume (or realistic training program) the scale may be worthless at first. Many people are able to gain a significant amount of muscle when dieting like this. Use the mirror and calipers (or better yet hydro-static weighing) to determine your rate of success.
> 
> You WILL end up looking flat by day 3-4, this is NOT representative of what you will look like when fully carbed-up. Remember, each gram of glycogen in the muscle brings 3 grams of water with it. When glycogen stores are down (and they will be) when doing low carbs you will "appear" smaller. It's just water, don't sweat it!
> 
> This type of diet lends itself well to getting a large percentage of daily caloric levels from protein powder and EFA's (essential fatty acids), and that makes it convenient to do.
> 
> I will at some point put out another article aimed at how to stay lean while adding mass, and as you might guess it is a variation of this basic format.
> 
> There you go, get that damn bodyfat off you and become a true bodybuilder. You know, one who isn't afraid to take his shirt off-lol.
> 
> And, again, If you want ALL the pieces of diet/routine and supplementation laid out for you including exact macronutrient and kcal requirements, consider having me train you!
> 
> 
> 
> *More timed carb diet options *
> ​
> I am Many people here do time carb diets to drop body fat and preserve or build muscle while dieting. As previously stated in my timed carb diet article, no, or low carbohydrate diets with periodic carb ups, and always ensuring post workout carb ups are completed are the best way to get lean while not sacrificing muscle. And if implemented properly, strength and mass will be built while dieting.
> 
> The way these diets are typically structured is to have a set amount of days where low or no carbs are consumed unless it is a workout day, and then have specific carb-up periods to replenish glycogen stores, help keep thyroid output high, and give the trainee a break from the low carbs. This keeps performance good and keeps a trainee sane while dieting. Some people though can have a problem with having three to five days with low or no carbs. While I do feel that the standard plan is the best approach to doing this, and the fastest way to drop body fat, I also understand it is not for everybody, and modifications can be used for some of these trainees that won't do it the traditional way.
> 
> A typical time carb diet might be four days without carbs (training days get carbs PWO, and a normal meal after) and three days where carbs are consumed. This can be kind of rough on some trainees for various reasons. And some guys just don't have the mental fortitude to go if three to five days without consuming significant quantities of carbs. If they stick with it after approximately a week and a half to two weeks they will find energy levels are fine and performance stays good. But&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;. getting some people to do the whole two weeks can be difficult. And I have heard every excuse in the world as to why can't be done some very valid some absolutely horrible. I had one guy tell me if he went more than five hours without carbs he would pass out. What I pointed out that it was a miracle that he woke up after sleeping for five hours he backed off on his exaggeration about how bad it made him feel. And the reality is no one no one will pass out after not eating carbs or not eating for five hours. But some people like to be dramatic.
> 
> Here are some options for people that won't or don't want to take the traditional approach to a time carb diet:
> 
> An every other day timed-carb diet. Yes, this is exactly what it sounds like. On day one you consume low or no carbs. On day two, you have a normal carb day. Repeat process indefinitely. Pretty simple huh? It works, and works well as long as you understand that the rate of fatloss will be half or less than half of a normal timed carb diet. And of course you can play with the ratios indefinitely, so you can do two days no carbs, one day carbs or vice versa.
> 
> Another approach, and one that works well for people that tend to be somewhat hypoglycemic is doing a half-day no carb, half-day carb. What works best is consuming carbs in the morning and then having a carb cut-off at a specified time, say two o'clock in the afternoon. After your carb cutoff, no carbs are consumed and the diet consists of protein and fat. This will allow fat to be burned at a more rapid pace than if carbs are consumed during those hours. Of course it is a compromise, but significant amounts of body fat can be lost over time, and it is a pretty comfortable diet to do. That is unless you get visions of ice cream dancing in your head about eight o'clock while watching TV-lol.
> 
> Remember low-calorie moderate to high carbohydrate diets will drop scale weight. The problem is, a lot of the weight lost will be muscle because insulin shots down the enzymatic process that allows body fat to be liberated. Insulin control is really what we are after here, no carbs = no insulin= body fat liberated = muscle preserved--simple as that! I hope these options gave you a couple more ideas for those that are hesitant or just don't have the willpower to go too long without their favorite carbs.
> 
> Iron Addict


Hi,

I was just reading this, and it looks like perfect advise to me. I am sorry I have to ask this question: but what is fast liquid carbs (malto-dextrin, dextrose, and yes, even sucrose will work)? Is it like a juice?

Thanks for your help!

Ine


----------



## 3752

fast liquid carbs are mostly powdered carbs where you add water....you can get these from places like Extreme Nutrition (Extreme Carbs)


----------



## Ineisa

Pscarb said:


> fast liquid carbs are mostly powdered carbs where you add water....you can get these from places like Extreme Nutrition (Extreme Carbs)


Yeah, but what if I want to eat some natural food, what can it be? :confused1:


----------



## hackskii

Whole foods are preferred anyway.


----------



## Ineisa

hackskii said:


> Whole foods are preferred anyway.


Ok, today I had 2 mandarins straight after the gym and a protein shake 10 min after. Is that ok?


----------



## hackskii

Yah, ok but fruit contains fructose which has to go to the liver to then go back into the blood, not the best choice for replenishment of glycogen stores in the muscle, great for liver glycogen stores though.

Eat some rice or a sweet potato, that would be ok, even oats.


----------



## dixie normus

Ineisa said:


> Yeah, but what if I want to eat some natural food, what can it be? :confused1:


If you want a whole food source of fast carbs then try boiled white potatoes.


----------



## Ineisa

dixie normus said:


> If you want a whole food source of fast carbs then try boiled white potatoes.


I just find it hard to eat boiled potatoes after the gym, i would prefer a juice,or fruit or I think even porridge.

If not I guess I will have to buy the post work out drink.


----------



## hackskii

dixie normus said:


> If you want a whole food source of fast carbs then try boiled white potatoes.


Yes they are very high in the GI but low in nutrition.


----------



## dixie normus

hackskii said:


> Yes they are very high in the GI but low in nutrition.


Very true. A common factor in most fast carbs.


----------



## hackskii

dixie normus said:


> Very true. A common factor in most fast carbs.


Yes sir, well said.


----------



## 3752

Ineisa said:


> Ok, today I had 2 mandarins straight after the gym and a protein shake 10 min after. Is that ok?


at any other meal other than PWO i would totally agree that whole food is better, the problem you have is that to replenich glycogen stores you really need fast carbs the issue with whole foods is that even the faster carb sources like white rice slow down if eaten with either protein or fats as this lowers GI.....i suppose another option would be white bread with honey.....or a protein shake with honey but nothing is going to be as good as a PWO shake with both protein and fast carbs....then eat a solid meal 60-90min after this shake


----------



## BigDom86

i usually have whey and oats and banana straight after PWO. i used to have maltodextrin but didnt notice enough of a difference to warrant the price and make it a staple


----------



## ba baracuss

Ineisa, what you're looking for is probably a banana post workout if you want a sugary whole food.


----------



## tom jones

I may be wrong but isnt 'ironaditcts' point that you take on board the carbs PWO, and then protein 10mins or so after, so that the protein doesnt interfere with the carb intake?


----------



## hackskii

PWO one is insulin sensitive, at this point it is splitting hairs to find the fastest source of carbs.

Personally I feel it makes no diffrence as long as you just eat after a workout.

The benefits of an insulin spike will happen even with whey.

Whey will spike insulin all by itself.

I don't agree with simple sugars in ones diet with the exception, other than PWO.


----------



## Ineisa

Ok, what about a natural yogurt with honey and a protein shake?


----------



## BigDom86

sounds fine ineisa. i would prefer a banana aswell for a bit more carbs


----------



## Ineisa

BigDom86 said:


> sounds fine ineisa. i would prefer a banana aswell for a bit more carbs


Cool, that is it then, yogurt, banana, honey and protein shake for me as meal 5 after my work out! Perfect! I knew I would find something I like!

Thanks to all for your help!!! :thumb:


----------



## BigDom86

haha people might say yogurt will slow absorption down. but after a workout i doubt it will too much, especially with honey and banana in there


----------



## Ineisa

BigDom86 said:


> haha people might say yogurt will slow absorption down. but after a workout i doubt it will too much, especially with honey and banana in there


Yeah, maybe, but I need to fit in my diet a yogurt a day somewhere and thought after the workout might be best, I am on a very high dose of antibiotics, and I am eating 0 carbs except on post work out meal and 1 other day a week.


----------



## hackskii

Yogurt will help you with your good bacteria, you would be better off with the plain organic stuff but it will taste like sour cream...lol

It actually makes a nice salad dressing using onion soup mix....lol


----------



## TH0R

Fascinating thread, you still using this method Paul??

I know this is lazy of me as its probably been mentioned before but.............

Do we keep our calories at a maintenance level or a building muscle level (some may say

bulking, not me though:whistling

Doesn't natural yoghurt contain fats that will slow down the bodies absorbtion of Carbs

(just for you Dom:lol


----------



## Ineisa

hackskii said:


> Yogurt will help you with your good bacteria, you would be better off with the plain organic stuff but it will taste like sour cream...lol
> 
> It actually makes a nice salad dressing using onion soup mix....lol


Yeah, I can imagine, normally with the salad mixes I would use half mayo half yogurt. And I buy almost everything organic!

I was thinking, what about a few 75% cocoa chocolate pieces and a protein shake? That is ok right? :bounce: :bounce: :bounce:


----------



## BigDom86

tel3563 said:


> Fascinating thread, you still using this method Paul??
> 
> I know this is lazy of me as its probably been mentioned before but.............
> 
> Do we keep our calories at a maintenance level or a building muscle level (some may say
> 
> bulking, not me though:whistling
> 
> Doesn't natural yoghurt contain fats that will slow down the bodies absorbtion of Carbs
> 
> (just for you Dom:lol


i love you tel lol:bounce:


----------



## hackskii

Ineisa said:


> Yeah, I can imagine, normally with the salad mixes I would use half mayo half yogurt. And I buy almost everything organic!
> 
> I was thinking, what about a few 75% cocoa chocolate pieces and a protein shake? That is ok right? :bounce: :bounce: :bounce:


That is fine too, I know a guy that swears by chocolate milk PWO, he got into a huge debate and held his ground well actually.


----------



## Ineisa

hackskii said:


> That is fine too, I know a guy that swears by chocolate milk PWO, he got into a huge debate and held his ground well actually.


COOL, I love my diet! :bounce:


----------



## Ineisa

ruaidhri said:


> anyone??


You have to be blond to get a reply! :wink:


----------



## Phez

ruaidhri said:


> In mid-late march (a few weeks before i go off to Cancun on holiday) I shall come off my bulk and follow this method to shed a bit of fat to make sure I'm ripped for the beach  .
> 
> I am planning on only eating carbs pre- and post-workout monday to friday, then carbing up on the weekends. Would it be sensible to schedule 2 of my 4 workouts at the weekend since it's the carb-up and I'll have more energy? How much lower should my daily cals be compared to a bulk? Right now I'm taking in approx. 3600 cals/day on a bulk and already pretty lean.
> 
> I fear I may go slightly insane without my carbs but it'll be worth it in the end!


Train away from your carb up so that you use your bodyfat as energy and drop down to about 2500 on a reduced carb diet mate.

Still not convinced your blonde tho :lol:


----------



## hackskii

500 caps a day and after a week net loss should be a pound of weight loss.

1000 cal a day less is askin to slow down your metabolism, potentially losing precious muscle.


----------



## winger

ruaidhri said:


> Thanks, I'll go for minus 500 cals a day when i start my cut then see how it goes. I will still be having definitely carbs postworkout monday to friday and maybe a little preworkout, eg small piece of fruit, but do you think it would be a good idea to do 2 of my 4 workouts on sat and sun my carb up days?


I think it depends on your present conditioning actually.

If you sitting at 25% bf than 500 calories wont be a big deal, but if your sitting at 12% (just an example) then 500 calories might be a bit much.

You might be better off at 300 calories and see how that goes for you.

Not sure where I heard this, might have been hackskii but 3500 calories equates to 1 lb loss. So that's 500 calories times 7 days in a week equals 3500 calories or one lb loss.

I wish I could eat 3600 calories and still be lean you bastard...lol


----------



## winger

If you almost have a six pack then you and I are sooo done you bastardo...lol

Why I ota grrrr!....lol

Say, how tall are you?


----------



## winger

ruaidhri said:


> Haha, I've never really seen my obliques though, we'll see how this cuts goes!
> 
> Bang on 6ft


You are tall and lean. :cursing: :cursing: :cursing:


----------



## winger

Calories in, calories burned.

If you take in less calories then you burn then you will lose weight.


----------



## Rebus

Im not to struck on this less calories in stuff as one can reduce ' calories ' and just become a smaller version of what they are, ie similar bodyfat and just smaller proportions. Seen it ,any times.

The macros have to be considered and manipulated to keep muscle and reduce bodyfat.....


----------



## Captain Hero

Bumping this


----------



## Buddhist Palm

Hi, just a quick question if anyone could just clarify for me, i have credex which im thinking of using pwo, the only issue i was wondering is the sugar content 69g per 100g would this be ok to use just as a pwo to replenish glycogen stores on this diet ?


----------



## hackskii

Never heard of it.

That is alot of sugar, dont you think you could buy that buy the pound much cheaper than this stuff?

FYI, sucrose is half fructose anyway, I dont think sugar would be my first choice for glycogen repleneshment.


----------



## Buddhist Palm

Thanks Hackskii, i know what your saying, i got it cheap, sorry missed the a out its creadex, creatine and dextrose, might just throw it away then.


----------



## hackskii

It does not look that bad on second thought.

I would not toss it, it has some other propritary stuff in there that looks good.


----------



## Buddhist Palm

Cool, thank you, your knowledge is much appreciated.! just wanted to double check. so pwo is thumbs up.?


----------



## winger

Yes. Dextrose and creatine PWO is fine.


----------



## Buddhist Palm

Cheers Winger much appreciated thanks.


----------



## jamesc

dont suppose there is a book with it all laid out for you is there? what to eat how much and when?


----------



## 3752

i am sure there is some where but how effective the book would be unless it was written for you specifically so it can take into account your lifestyle and metabolism i am unsure how successful it would be.......

Trial and Error is the best way to work what fits best for you, it took me a very long time to work out what worked for me.....


----------



## NakedGuy

Superb reading, dieting is a lot more complex than most people would think

I do have a question, well two questions actually which may sound stupid but I dont know the answers so i got to ask

the liquid carbs directly after workout, i.e. dextrose, what do you take for that, is that not just pretty much sugar (sorry if that sounds dumb)

Also, when eating protein and fats, protein is easy, chicken, fish, meat but what about fats. I hear good fats and bad fats all the time but how do you know the difference


----------



## hackskii

Not really such thing as bad fats unless you are referring to hydrogenated oils or trans fats, other than that we need all fats.

Good fats are monounsaturated fats and EFA's (Omega 3, 6, 9).

Bad fats are generally associated with saturated fats, but in the end you still need those and about 1/3 of your fat should probably come from those.


----------



## jamesc

Thanks for reply pscarbs. have been on your timed carbs plan for a week now seems to be doing the trick. struggling to eat it all though. have been putting off dieting for years, takes so much will power. lol. But without your post i would never have got motivated. love the re fuel days! great post. Website has taught me heaps in a very short period. credit to everyone on here....


----------



## NakedGuy

another question. If doing times carbs or keto, what effect does milk have, either in scrambled egg or protein shakes as milk is carb but low on the GI index


----------



## Sharp161

Personally i have a dash of milk in my scambled egg but id have shakes with water if i were u milk is just more calories.

Awsome thread btw just formulating a diet plan based on this


----------



## anacoholic

is there anyone using this protocol lately?


----------



## Jux

Started a few days ago... going pretty well hunger-wise.


----------



## Finchy

winger said:


> I agree with hackinspank.
> 
> Ask your bird how the gizz tastes when you are in ketosis. Oopsie, that is a DB question. My bad.


Sorry to drag this point up but I am reading through this excellent thread.

Out of interest - what effect DOES it have on the "taste"?


----------



## daniron

Great read, thanks for sharing that


----------



## Finchy

OK Just read through this entire thread.

I'd like to ask a couple of questions if I may.

Am I correct in saying that you basically follow low carb until post workout where you drink down a carb drink and follow it up with a source of protein? You then schedule a carb "refeed" similair to what is detailed in bodyopus I guess.

Aiming this question specifically at perhaps the competitve bodybuilders on here, is this timed carb diet the general way of doing things now - kind of moved on from bodyopus?

I did find wingers posts informative, he seems to be more for staying in ketosis rather than cycling the carbs.


----------



## Iluv2b_Free

This is great, too bad I can't seem to find a place to do out macros and such on my phone...(android mesmerize)


----------



## Jonathan Nemo

40%...can anyone give a tip on what fats to eat? Also fast carbs, im guessing these are fast release .... I.e sugars??


----------



## hackskii

Jonathan Nemo said:


> 40%...can anyone give a tip on what fats to eat? Also fast carbs, im guessing these are fast release .... I.e sugars??


All fats are good, add some fish oils in there.

Fast carbs are simple ones, so it is the ose at the end like sucrose, lactose, dextrose, etc.


----------



## Bonzer

Can i use any condiments on this diet? Say like 15g per meal, which will give me about 4g carbs?


----------



## -tommyboiii-

Just read the whole thread....definitely gonna try this !


----------



## richywiseman

I have been following this thread and have been keen to try for a while now, I've waited long enough think I have the basics pretty much sorted, I have started my timed carb diet today and have a few questions



I will be using Almonds and peanut butter to get most of my fats, as I like them and they are convenient, is this an ok strategy, I also use Udos choice


I use Reflex performance matrix pre-workout, is it ok to continue using this


post-workout I use Reflex growth matrix, is this suitable for my post workout carbs


Thanks in advance, Richy


----------



## 3752

richywiseman said:


> I have been following this thread and have been keen to try for a while now, I've waited long enough think I have the basics pretty much sorted, I have started my timed carb diet today and have a few questions
> 
> 
> 
> I will be using Almonds and peanut butter to get most of my fats, as I like them and they are convenient, is this an ok strategy, I also use Udos choice
> 
> 
> I use Reflex performance matrix pre-workout, is it ok to continue using this
> 
> 
> post-workout I use Reflex growth matrix, is this suitable for my post workout carbs
> 
> 
> Thanks in advance, Richy


yes on all 3 questions


----------



## richywiseman

Thank You for the reply, much appreciated.


----------



## Mr_Morocco

Will be trying this starting tommorow whilst im on clen+t3..great read thanks Pscarb


----------



## weightgainer

If im doing Timed carbs diet, instead of keto, can i still get my fats from wherever i want? Because when ive done keto before i just ate shed loads of bacon sasauge and egg, and still lost weight. But because carb ups here (albeit after training) are more frequent, can i still get away with that?


----------



## RandomHero83

Im planning on doing this diet. was thinking of doing 4 days no carbs and 3 days medium to high carbs. I have a pretty fast metabolism but have put on a little weight recently whilst bulking.

Im 28 and am 88kilo's. I was even thinking of just doing carbs in the morning and then none at night everyday. I work offshore so its quite hard for me to get the correct food intake when im working but when I am home I can stick to this no problem. I am in no real rush to shift the bodyfat so a slwer method might be easier for me.

If I was to do the half day on half day off would the following be ok? I would have no carbs after 2pm. I go to the gym around 9am/9.30

I would have this everyday I was home from the rigs...

pre workout\breakfast - smoothie - 2 scoops strawberry whey protein, milk, 2 tablespoons peanut butter, 1 banana, 1 sachet of oats.

post workout - 2 scoops whey protein banana.

lunch - 4 egg omellete with mushrooms and tomatoes or 2 chicken breasts with green vegetables.

after 2pm:

snack - tin of canned tuna, handful of almonds

dinner - salmon and vegetables or chicken breasts and vegetables

snack - protein shake and handful of almonds.

I understand almonds have some carbs but is this ok as a guide to having half day on half day off...?

all help appreciated.

thanks


----------



## FitzTheMan

This was an excellent read, found it a lot to take in though, so I've bookmarked it for future reference to give it a re-read over. Got a bit of a headache after trying to take all that in at once lol! Learned a fair bit though. Thanks for that buddy, big help!


----------



## andymc88

Can you bulk using this diet? or best for cutting I'm bulking atm but trying different things to see if I can reduce the amount of bloat and fat I gain

Also just to make sure would the diet look as the following

Meal 1 protein fat protein shake with peanut butter

Meal 2 protein fat chicken and macadamia nuts

Meal 3 90g wms 10mins later whey protein shake

Meal 4 chicken sweet potato fish oil

Meal 5 protein fat chicken veg evoo

Meal 6 same as 5

Meal 7 tinned salmon or turkey mince with salad and evoo

Also do you need to drop cals or keep cals the same? Currently around 3000


----------



## 3752

Bonzer said:


> Can i use any condiments on this diet? Say like 15g per meal, which will give me about 4g carbs?


yes mate you can......i would not worry about the carbs though mate



weightgainer said:


> If im doing Timed carbs diet, instead of keto, can i still get my fats from wherever i want? Because when ive done keto before i just ate shed loads of bacon sasauge and egg, and still lost weight. But because carb ups here (albeit after training) are more frequent, can i still get away with that?


no you need to make use of more healthy fats over "any you want" fats.....i have tried this in my time using both ways and the results where better with healthy fats...



andymc88 said:


> Can you bulk using this diet? or best for cutting I'm bulking atm but trying different things to see if I can reduce the amount of bloat and fat I gain
> 
> Also just to make sure would the diet look as the following
> 
> Meal 1 protein fat protein shake with peanut butter
> 
> Meal 2 protein fat chicken and macadamia nuts
> 
> Meal 3 90g wms 10mins later whey protein shake
> 
> Meal 4 chicken sweet potato fish oil
> 
> Meal 5 protein fat chicken veg evoo
> 
> Meal 6 same as 5
> 
> Meal 7 tinned salmon or turkey mince with salad and evoo
> 
> Also do you need to drop cals or keep cals the same? Currently around 3000


you can use this method to bulk as well as diet the key is to slowly increase the values until you hit a wall then increase again....


----------



## andymc88

which values would i increase im currently around 172-176lbs so ive been aiming for 3200 cals a day, im just a bit unsure about what the macro split is? also if you dont mind answering have you ever used this method to bulk?im sure this is the diet my friend who is in high up in the mma sign uses


----------



## 3752

your protein should remain static for the most, increase the Carbs and fats......

i have used this method for bulking and it has worked very well.....


----------



## Dux

This sounds pretty much like the diet I've been following with great success. I take in carbs (oats) the morning, then pre and post workout. An hour or so after finishing in the gym I'll eat rice or a jacket potato with chicken, then apart from the low amount of carbs I get from my shakes, I don't take in any more for the rest of the day.

My fats come from almonds, walnuts, cashews and peanut butter, and my main evening meal is usually just a decent portion of lean meat.

I take in about 3000ish calories a day, and have lost 5 stone in 6 months doing this.

That doesn't take into account the decent amount of muscle I've put on either.


----------



## 2004mark

During the day I have

2 x protein shakes

2 x portions of meat (normally 200-250g of chicken with mayo)

1 or 2 portions of fruit (pineapple, apple or orange).

I then have a PWO whey shake and then a big meal inc carbs about an hour after leaving the gym.

Do you think swapping the fruit in the day for spinach with oil or broccoli with butter (more cals) would aid fat loss Paul?


----------



## bayman

If its more cals, then no dude.

Swapping the same amount of carbs for fats won't help either.


----------



## 2004mark

TBH I didn't think so, but was just wondering if having zero carbs (well, only green veg) between PWO meals would make any difference if cals remind equal or slightly higher.


----------



## andymc88

Has anyone tried this but felt sick? I've been doing it 3 days but I feel very strange like body temp maybe coming down with something but other that only thing I've changed is diet


----------



## Rubes

I'm not really sure what to eat thats fatty enough, so the body will recognize it as an alternative source of fuel.


----------



## andymc88

Might be wrong but I'm going to eat

Nuts-almonds, macadamias, walnuts

Evoo

Salmon

Fish oil

Flax

Cla


----------



## andymc88

How's this look 7meals a day, I'm on nights atm so my day starts around 6pm and finishes about 11am-12noon if I'm lucky was wondering how does this diet look

Meal 1 7pm

Bacon medlions nuts

Meal 2 10pm

Chicken evoo

Meal 3 1am

Same as above

Normally get my break here so sleep in the car for an hr

Meal 4 4am

Same as meals 2/3

Meal 5 6am

Protein shake with nuts fish oil

Meal 6 8.45am

Bacon fish oil nuts (will swop meals 5 n 6 if workouts are crap also will ad same amount of carbs to the shake, will also have the shake at 8.15 on drive home)

Meal 7 postworkout

1scoop whey 1scoop casein with 90g-130 waxy maise starch

Then bed

I no I need veg but not a fan as I bloat and get bad gas but any ideas on veg that won't do this?

Starting off at maintaince and then goin to see how I get on for a few weeks and tweak the diet to how i feel or want to look tried it for a few weeks but not really well but seen goods gains and looking leaner sonwanting to do it right, macro going for 45/15/40 pro/carb/fat so if I worked it out right that's rufferly 310g pro 105g carb 120g fat any changes or advice please help me out


----------



## transformer23

Nice little read!


----------



## Nickthegreek

Pscarb said:


> at any other meal other than PWO i would totally agree that whole food is better, the problem you have is that to replenich glycogen stores you really need fast carbs the issue with whole foods is that even the faster carb sources like white rice slow down if eaten with either protein or fats as this lowers GI.....i suppose another option would be white bread with honey.....or a protein shake with honey but nothing is going to be as good as a PWO shake with both protein and fast carbs....then eat a solid meal 60-90min after this shake


What about running it by sipping 50-60 g of fast acting carbs like Vitargo during workout with BCAA, Creatine , l-carnitine , Glutamine etc and then having a pure whey isolate shake immediately after workout, followed by the carb meal an hour to hour and half later? The reason i say this is that wouldn't the fast carbs really help you fuel your workout better to train harder rather than having no carbs in the system?


----------



## andymc88

@pscarb how could i set up a bulk diet using timed carbs?


----------



## 3752

andymc88 said:


> @pscarb how could i set up a bulk diet using timed carbs?


you use the same principles detailed in this thread and increase the calories...


----------



## DanMac

Alright Pscarb, your initial post was an awesome read! I just have a couple of quick questions pal..

I was looking into the half-day carb, half-day no carb diet to push my current cutting along a bit faster. What do you suggest eating after for example 2pm in terms of meals which contain just protein and fats? Within my current diet the only meal throughout the whole day that contains 'quite a lot' of fat is 4 full eggs within the morning..

Also after finishing training at around 7:30pm I will not be intaking any form of carbs, therefore glycogen levels will be quite low for the next day's workout. Do you think that the carbs consumed within the next morning will bring my glycogen back up to where I want them by the time I hit the gym that evening?

Thanks pal


----------



## mark22

You're over thinking it by a long way.just eat some chicken for lunch and dinner serious. Do a cycle if you so anal about it all and join us in hell x


----------



## 3752

DanMac said:


> Alright Pscarb, your initial post was an awesome read! I just have a couple of quick questions pal..
> 
> I was looking into the half-day carb, half-day no carb diet to push my current cutting along a bit faster. What do you suggest eating after for example 2pm in terms of meals which contain just protein and fats? Within my current diet the only meal throughout the whole day that contains 'quite a lot' of fat is 4 full eggs within the morning..
> 
> Also after finishing training at around 7:30pm I will not be intaking any form of carbs, therefore glycogen levels will be quite low for the next day's workout. Do you think that the carbs consumed within the next morning will bring my glycogen back up to where I want them by the time I hit the gym that evening?
> 
> Thanks pal


If you want to accelerate fat loss then consuming no carbs PWO and then until 2pm the next day is a better option as the release of insulin from carbs will stop the on going PWO bodies use of FFA's this is called a careless post workout method very similar to intermittent fasting......

As for meal with protein and fats you really should find this out for yourself mate it is the basic info you need for a successful diet.....



mark22 said:


> You're over thinking it by a long way.just eat some chicken for lunch and dinner serious. Do a cycle if you so anal about it all and join us in hell x


although he may be over thinking it slightly telling him to just eat chicken and rice and jump on a cycle is stupid advice, please don't post this type of advice.


----------



## deemann

just like to say thanks pscarb for posting this tread on timed carbs been on it a while now and happy with results so far.

Ive gone from 23%BF to 17% ,still a bit further to go my target is 14% .

lol didnt even start any cardio yet


----------



## aad123

I'v only just found this thread and have started a timed carb diet today. Just to ensure I haven't got this wrong I need to confirm the basic outline of the diet.

1) low carb sunday to friday and refeed on sat.

2) have an apple pre workout and a whay shake with malto / glucose mix post workout. Apple is optional.

3) following the post workout shake consume a normal meal (pro, carb % fat) and then back onto low carbs.

I do have one question about the diet which may be a problem. I train late 8 - 9pm so following my post workout shake can I just have my normal cottage cheese with olive oil or do I need to have the carbs ?

What would be my best option.


----------



## Time2Change

Been looking for someone to lay it out like this - I had hunches and feelings that something like this would be the way forward from my education in biology and chemistry plus my recent reading up on this forum.... but having the details put down like that is great...

Pscarb dropped 7 stone off his sister in 18 months which is roughly a similar rate to what I'm going for - I'm planning to safely and sensibly lose 4 stone of body fat over the next 12 months as right now I'm a fatty (6ft3 and 121kg, clinically obese - hence the reason I'm on here and in the gym sorting my life out). I have no idea what my muscle structure is like underneath all the fat but I want to keep as much of it as possible during the fat loss process as I've heard it's very hard to put on muscle so I want to make the muscle building job as easy as I can to start with once the fat has gone!

My schedule would look something like this - does this look about right?

Day 1 - Train - Timed carbs

Day 2 - Train - Timed carbs

Day 3 - Train - Timed carbs

Day 4 - Rest - No Carbs

Day 5 - Train - Timed carbs

Day 6 - Train - Carb up day

Day 7 - Rest - No carbs

Rinse and repeat!

Many thanks in advance,

T2C


----------



## Wings

So what diet is best then if ur using DNP? as with DNP apparently u have to eat small amount of carbs..... f**k why is this so hard


----------



## Thunderstruck

Who told you that mate? My experience of DNP is no carbs is by far the best to keep the 'negative' sides to a minimum, when ive had a bit of carbs when on dnp thats it, the cravings kick in big time and unless your mentally very tough you will give in and ruin the whole point.

The timed carbs as stated in the first post works very well with dnp.


----------



## Wings

So basically carbs after a work out n thats it?


----------



## adamatthews

Great read. Thanks.


----------



## slickcell

Right guys, im 5ft8 and 156lbs at about 16-17% bodyfat. I did follow the entire P90x program about a year ago and got down to about 10% bodyfat but ive been out of training for a year or so now due to a knee injury.

Rather than doing the whole weights thing that everyone does, im trying to focus on cardio/interval training and kettlebells to get leaner before muscling up.

Anyways, im interested in following this diet plan and ive tried creating my own daily meal plan based on this timed-carb guide. Ive been following a low carb diet (less than 60g per day) and eating around 1600 calories per day as im not overly active these days due to being off uni for the summer but id really appreciate anyone who can have look over my own tailored timed-carb diet plan and give me any tips or ideas on how it could be improved??

Or maybe its completely wrong and im way off the mark? Regardless, any help would be most appreciated!


----------



## PRD

> keep fat in the diet at (at least) a 40-50% ratio


40 -50% ratio of what ?

Does this mean 50% of your daily cal intake ? eg if you need to consume 2000 cal a day , half of this must be from fat , and the other half from protein?

or is this completely wrong ?

im guessing its very simple as no one has asked, but i just cant work it out

:stupid:


----------



## 1990

the fast liquid carb post workout would powdered oats be ok?


----------



## PRD

Juice [URL=Junky:3477607]Junky:3477607[/URL] said:


> 40 -50% ratio of what ?
> 
> Does this mean 50% of your daily cal intake ? eg if you need to consume 2000 cal a day , half of this must be from fat , and the other half from protein?
> 
> or is this completely wrong ?
> 
> im guessing its very simple as no one has asked, but i just cant work it out
> 
> :stupid:


Bump


----------



## ryan67

@Pscarb @hackskii and anyone else willing to help!

I've been training for 6 and a half months and have put on a just over 2 stone. Results have been great and fat gain has been pretty minimal but noticeable. i'm moving to the Melbourne sunshine in 4 weeks time so have been looking to go on a mini cut to get the abs showing for the beach. Timed carbs looks interesting and fancy giving it a go. Struggling for brekky though as I can't stomach eggs, is there other decent alternatives to start the day off?

Stats atm: 6'2, 13st8

Recently aggravated a chronic groin problem I've had for years so haven't been able to train legs or cardio for 2 months, lost all gains on legs so a bit lighter than I should be

Diet idea:

Meal1 - 2 scoops Whey and 1 tbsp almond butter - or any better alternative to eggs

Meal 2 - 2 tins tuna w/ greens & spinach salad, rapeseed oil dressing

Train

PWO - 2 scoops Whey, banana

Meal4 - 250g chicken, greens, almonds

Meal5 - 250g steak, greens

Meal6 - 2 scoops whey, almonds/almond butter

Basically unsure for breakfast and the amount of carbs to take in PWO. Also, on one high carb day per week, oats at breakfast and one high carb main meal be okay? Currently consume around 3600 kcals a day on my lean(ish) bulk which has gone really well but I've never cut before.

Any help appreciated!


----------



## hackskii

I personally don't like alot of shakes in my diet, I prefer whole foods.


----------



## jayDP

I'm doing a lowfat/kcal diet now...

Down from 16.8 to 14.11, need to lose another 10lb I think to be 6% bf

My diet is 320protein, 120carb, 10fats??? ( just trace fats from chicken)

I don't believe for one second that am losing 50%fat 50%muscle, maybe 80/20, tops!

Is this Artical based on ppl using ass or not?

Anyway I'll give it a go...


----------



## weightgainer

Isn't timed carbs the same as carb back loading? If not can anyone highlight the differences?


----------



## Bull Terrier

weightgainer said:


> Isn't timed carbs the same as carb back loading? If not can anyone highlight the differences?


I think that it would be more accurate to say that carb back loading is a variant of timed carbs which gives fairly specific guidelines regarding consumption of protein/fat/carbs at different points of the day.


----------



## weightgainer

Bull Terrier said:


> I think that it would be more accurate to say that carb back loading is a variant of timed carbs which gives fairly specific guidelines regarding consumption of protein/fat/carbs at different points of the day.


Fair enough - I'm doing back loading now after a week of keto an it's so easy to stick to.


----------



## Bull Terrier

Thanks for the reps mate, but I don't feel like I earned them lol.

Back loading is easy to follow, yes, but my advice is to steer clear of high-fat foods in back-load, whatever Kiefer may say. Don't eat all of the junk he recommends, i.e. pizza, ice-cream (which isn't even high GI and thus against his own recommendations!!), etc. Keep it fairly clean.

Furthermore I strongly suspect that for most people the amount of carbs he recommends for back-load will just make them fat. I'd recommend lowering alot and then try and dial in the correct amount to gain on without getting fat. I'm willing to bet that for most it will be less than he recommends in the e-book..

Having said all that I think that it's a good system and the science behind it sounds very interesting.

Hope that helps some mate.


----------



## weightgainer

Ye well I agree completely - I just have some maltodextrin post-wo and then a sensible meal. Sweet potato, brown rice etc. Most of the time when I come to carb back load I'm sick of all the fats during the day and previous day. E.g. Coconut oil, Evoo and couldn't bare the thought of more fat. That's what makes it easy to follow for me.


----------



## Bull Terrier

weightgainer said:


> Ye well I agree completely - I just have some maltodextrin post-wo and then a sensible meal. Sweet potato, brown rice etc. Most of the time when I come to carb back load I'm sick of all the fats during the day and previous day. E.g. Coconut oil, Evoo and couldn't bare the thought of more fat. That's what makes it easy to follow for me.


I can see a couple of problems here though.

The idea of the back-load is to eat high GI foods which cause a quick insulin spike which then drops. If on the other hand you eat low GI carbs like brown rice then this isn't going to happen.

Also, you shouldn't be eating all that much fat during the day.


----------



## hackskii

Bull Terrier said:


> I can see a couple of problems here though.
> 
> The idea of the back-load is to eat high GI foods which cause a quick insulin spike which then drops. If on the other hand you eat low GI carbs like brown rice then this isn't going to happen.
> 
> Also, you shouldn't be eating all that much fat during the day.


Post workout you are insulin sensitive so it still will spike even if the carbs are lower GI.


----------



## Bull Terrier

hackskii said:


> Post workout you are insulin sensitive so it still will spike even if the carbs are lower GI.


I hear you Hackskii, but if following Kiefer's CBL system to the letter then he recommends specifically high GI carbs in the back-load and strongly recommends staying away from low GI carbs. I really don't want to spout bro-science BS - I think that the reason Kiefer cites is that low GI carbs will maintain the insulin levels elevated for far longer and thus interfere with lipolysis the following morning.


----------



## weightgainer

Bull Terrier said:


> I can see a couple of problems here though.
> 
> The idea of the back-load is to eat high GI foods which cause a quick insulin spike which then drops. If on the other hand you eat low GI carbs like brown rice then this isn't going to happen.
> 
> Also, you shouldn't be eating all that much fat during the day.


What do you mean not too many Fats during the day? The whole point as far as I understand from reading is to consume protein and fats exclusively and keep the carbs for PWO. If your not consuming carbs or fats an just protein then it will convert to glycogen anyway through gluconeogenesis.

if this isn't the case I think I've seriously misinterpreted this diet.


----------



## Bull Terrier

There is a table in the ebook which details the protein and fat which you should consume during the day up until the pm back-load.

For example, if your target bodyweight is 170 pounds then you should eat 129,6g of protein and 31,5g of fat, going by his table.

These values are what you would use you to lose fat, and he notes that if trying to increase muscle mass to increase the fat. However he doesn't specifiy how much to increase the fat intake. My view is that it shouldn't be increased too much.


----------



## hackskii

Bull Terrier said:


> I hear you Hackskii, but if following Kiefer's CBL system to the letter then he recommends specifically high GI carbs in the back-load and strongly recommends staying away from low GI carbs. I really don't want to spout bro-science BS - I think that the reason Kiefer cites is that low GI carbs will maintain the insulin levels elevated for far longer and thus interfere with lipolysis the following morning.


Oh, I was not following the thread very well, I didnt know that it was a certain system, I was just suggesting that fast acting carbs that people talk about post cycle and suggest this is the best choice post workout are probably a bit off.

so, aside from the Kiefers system which I have not seen yet, I was just saying post workout refeed can come from whole foods that can be fast, or slow acting and still get a spike due to insulin sensitivity post workout.


----------



## Bull Terrier

hackskii said:


> Oh, I was not following the thread very well, I didnt know that it was a certain system, I was just suggesting that fast acting carbs that people talk about post cycle and suggest this is the best choice post workout are probably a bit off.
> 
> so, aside from the Kiefers system which I have not seen yet, I was just saying post workout refeed can come from whole foods that can be fast, or slow acting and still get a spike due to insulin sensitivity post workout.


If you want to read the CBL ebook then PM me an email address and I'll send it over to you. No problems.


----------



## hackskii

Bull Terrier said:


> If you want to read the CBL ebook then PM me an email address and I'll send it over to you. No problems.


How many pages?

I have read alot of books on forms of carb cycling, there are so many methods, some guys eat high protein, high fats for 5 days, then the last three meals are low protein, low fats, high carbs for a glycogen replenishment, day 5, then it starts over again.

Or the low carbs all the time with the exception of post workout for the spike in insulin and glycogen replenishment.

I understand the concepts, when insulin is low, glucagon is high and thus release of GH, so you get the benefits of fat loss, yet wont crash in the gym from lack of carbohydrates.

There are so many ways.

I remember another guy that wants to drop a pound or so just uses one day BCAA's and water.

There are so many ways.

My favorite though is 40/30/30 where the carbs are 40% of the total calories, and the fats, and protein is 30%, so glycogen wont be an issue, and you wont get too thick from the carbs, and the fats are good hormonally.

There are so many ways:lol:


----------



## Bull Terrier

The ebook is pretty long, around 250 pages if I remember right, and to be honest also quite ripetitive.


----------



## hackskii

Bull Terrier said:


> The ebook is pretty long, around 250 pages if I remember right, and to be honest also quite ripetitive.


Well, it would not be credible if it was just 10 pages. :lol:


----------



## DeskSitter

Still a little unclear as to how many carbs one should have pre and post workout? The article suggests that a person could be ingesting anything up to 40-50g of carbs indirectly as very few foods are totally zero carb. So if you add deliberate carbs pre and post workout are you not pushing up this figure to unacceptable levels without realising?

Also, would cycling one day on one day off the diet have the desired effect? I train every other day, giving myself one days break in between training days, but I also box once or twice a week in the evening time and this is much more demanding than my weight sessions, by a long way. On the on days what ratios carb/protein/fat should I be aiming for? (Currently cutting).

Slightly obscure question here, do herbs and spices have an effect on fat loss? I like to baste my meet in spices like cayenne pepper, smoked paprika, etc, is this ok?


----------



## DragonFlag

Can you give some pointers on what you said would explain

I will at some point put out another article aimed at how to stay lean while adding mass, and as you might guess it is a variation of this basic format.


----------



## Guest

How many carbs per day would you be taking in if dieting on 2000 cals?

And on non workout days, do you replace the calories from carbs with fats or protein?


----------



## JPO

Jd123 said:


> How many carbs per day would you be taking in if dieting on 2000 cals?
> 
> And on non workout days, do you replace the calories from carbs with fats or protein?


I take in around 90-100g split pre and post workout


----------



## Vytasx

Awesome post about dieting...

I was wondering should I start a diet, but if I want to develop and muscle is that possible?


----------



## braxbro

Well, man enough to say my diet has been almost a complete opposite of this. All my carbs are consumed pre-workout with the thought " this'll fuel me for the day".

I am currently eating at 120g complex/fiberous carbs a day, 70g fats and around 350g protein. Results are slow but I am dropping bodyfat and leaning out quite nicely.... but I guess not optimally. Starting from Sunday I am going to change it up to the format here and see what happens. I want to take off 10-12lbs before sept 23rd so going to go hard at this.


----------



## Dezw

I have been giving this a go since Sunday.

I train Monday - Friday, so only carbs I have had this week have been 50g or so liquid dextrose after training then a carb meal an hour or so later.

I thought I would be craving carbs but haven't been so bad.

I have a couple questions.

I shouldn't have carbs on the days off, so that means Sat and Sun should be carb free, but I want to throw a carb day in somewhere, where would be best.

Also I work as a postman so as well as training I have 3 1/2 hours of fast walking 5 days a week, how should I adjust my nutrition to accomodate this?

Cheers


----------



## Guest

@Pscarb

PSCARB I read the bit which says you can alternatively have carbs in the morning then cut off at 2 followed by a no carb day, what approach would you take if you train in the evening

I'm doing training 1 day on 1 day off

Training days I have a 70g carb breakfast, 60g preworkout and 40-60g postworkout

Off days I either have no carbs(excluding carbs in my protein/fat based meals) or minimal(depending on if I'm in work or not), at most a tin of low salt/sugar heinz beans or the odd bit of brocolli

This approach works but I'm willing to switch it up especially if it's going to double my fat loss

Also as the days go by without a 'cheat day' I get hungrier and hungrier, where do I go from here?


----------



## Dr Gearhead

MattTwoWheels said:


> @Pscarb
> 
> PSCARB I read the bit which says you can alternatively have carbs in the morning then cut off at 2 followed by a no carb day, what approach would you take if you train in the evening
> 
> I'm doing training 1 day on 1 day off
> 
> Training days I have a 70g carb breakfast, 60g preworkout and 40-60g postworkout
> 
> Off days I either have no carbs(excluding carbs in my protein/fat based meals) or minimal(depending on if I'm in work or not), at most a tin of low salt/sugar heinz beans or the odd bit of brocolli
> 
> This approach works but I'm willing to switch it up especially if it's going to double my fat loss
> 
> Also as the days go by without a 'cheat day' I get hungrier and hungrier, where do I go from here?


I think I'm right in saying pscarb reccommends 1/2 your usual carb amount on non training days from complex carbs.

Rather than a cheat day go with a carb up day where you keep protien the same but drop fats and increase carbs. I hope this is right because otherwise I've been doing it wrong for about 8 weeks now


----------



## 3752

Dr Gearhead said:


> I think I'm right in saying pscarb reccommends 1/2 your usual carb amount on non training days from complex carbs.
> 
> Rather than a cheat day go with a carb up day where you keep protien the same but drop fats and increase carbs. I hope this is right because otherwise I've been doing it wrong for about 8 weeks now


This is correct, there will come a time where a nice burger and fries or pizza is a must for sanity sake if nothing else but that in my opinion is not every week, if you have a lot of weight to lose then a meal like that once every 3-4 weeks is fine other than that increase good carbs once a week sort of a high carb day...


----------



## Guest

That would explain why I've been getting increasingly hungry, after all my meals yesterday I was still starving and come midnight I couldn't think about anything else but carbs

Gonna have a highish carb day tomorrow

What's a decent amount to go for?


----------



## 3752

MattTwoWheels said:


> That would explain why I've been getting increasingly hungry, after all my meals yesterday I was still starving and come midnight I couldn't think about anything else but carbs
> 
> Gonna have a highish carb day tomorrow
> 
> What's a decent amount to go for?


what is your highest carb day now?


----------



## Guest

Pscarb said:


> what is your highest carb day now?


220g

Had a cheat day where I got drunk and ate a kebab at the start

Been two weeks 100% strict so either 0-100 or 180-220 1 on 1 off

Also am I counting the carbs in nuts/whey etc


----------



## 3752

MattTwoWheels said:


> 220g
> 
> Had a cheat day where I got drunk and ate a kebab at the start
> 
> Been two weeks 100% strict so either 0-100 or 180-220 1 on 1 off
> 
> Also am I counting the carbs in nuts/whey etc


Well I don't count those carbs

For that amount I would have a high day of 600g


----------



## Dr Gearhead

Pscarb said:


> Well I don't count those carbs
> 
> For that amount I would have a high day of 600g


Keep protein the same effectively having an increased calorie day ? (sorry, my fitness pall has given me calorie counting ocd)


----------



## 3752

Dr Gearhead said:


> Keep protein the same effectively having an increased calorie day ? (sorry, my fitness pall has given me calorie counting ocd)


on a high carb day this is normally a non training day so i drop protein a little say by 100g


----------



## Guest

Last question mate am I good eating 180g brocolli (8g carbs) with each of my 4 meals per day? Mainly for fibre and vitamins


----------



## 3752

MattTwoWheels said:


> Last question mate am I good eating 180g brocolli (8g carbs) with each of my 4 meals per day? Mainly for fibre and vitamins


don't count fibrous carbs mate and yes of course eat them just do not count them


----------



## AlexB18

Hey guys had a good read of everything throughout this topic I must say incredibly informative thank you @Pscarb for posting it I do have one question

If it helps my stats are as follows

Height 5 ft 11

Weight 268lbs

Bf 25%

Worked out my Cals as follows

Cals - 3128 on a cut

And here are what i have worked out i need on the following days...

Training

P - 260

F - 186

C - 81

The carbs include 50g of dextrose taken with 2 scoops of whey immediately after training and 50g of oats about an hour after this.

Rest days

P - 272

F - 221

C - 15

Re feed day

P - 313

F - 37

C - 334

On re feed days my carb sources are all from low GI carbs and the vast majority of any fats I take in come in the form of healthy fats the exception of which is 50g chorizo which I eat with my scrambled eggs. Just want someone to give this a check over if that's ok see if I've done this right before I proceed with it? Thanks a lot in advance for any replies and help provided.


----------



## Leigh1987

Top top work here pscarb will definetly give this a try.

Just one quick Q if i hit cardio in morning and weights evening on same day do i take my carbs and dextrose after both or just weight training?


----------



## 3752

Leigh1987 said:


> Top top work here pscarb will definetly give this a try.
> 
> Just one quick Q if i hit cardio in morning and weights evening on same day do i take my carbs and dextrose after both or just weight training?


just weight training


----------



## Guest

Glad I found this


----------



## Dan94

how much carbs would you eat for the carb refeed days? im around 170lb's


----------



## Dazarms

Pscarb said:


> Most of the people that come to me seeking personal training advice have their number one priority listed as dropping bodyfat. And when I say most, I am talking about 75-80%. The sad part is a big percentage of those people were NOT fat when they started bodybuilding. Yes, they got that way trying to "bulk up". I guess you can say they were successful at "bulking" if you consider fat to be "bulk". What they should have been doing is "muscling up". That is rarely done until the trainee is quite experienced. The yo-yo approach can work well if you are blessed with a great metabolism&#8230;&#8230;few are. Had they done it right they wouldn't be in that situation. But, past mistakes are best left in the past. This article is about how to leave those mistakes in the past where they belong, and give you some general guidelines about timed-carb dieting, which I FIRMELY believe is the best approach to dropping the bodyfat while at a bare minimum retaining 100% of your muscle mass, and in the VAST majority of cases, adding some muscle and lots of strength while shedding the unwanted fat.
> 
> Before I outline the timed carb strategy, I am going to go over the typical types of diets followed by those in search of their abs, and talk about the pros and cons of each technique. Lets get started!
> 
> Low calorie, low fat diets
> 
> This is probably the #1 approach taken by those that have taken the plunge into the realm of dieting and it also happens to be the #1 reason many are afraid to diet. Why are they afraid? Because past experience has taught them that when dieting, they lose hard-earned muscle. And with this type of diet you can EXPECT at least a 50/50 muscle to fat loss ratio! YES! You lose 10 lbs and at LEAST 5 is usually muscle!!! Why? You first need to understand a bit about bodyfat metabolism. Your body stores bodyfat as "reserve fuel" in case of famine. Which is not much of a problem in today's world in industrialized countries. OK, now you're fat and you decide to drop it using this approach. The problem is, that when carbs are present, the fat burning pathways, which are driven by an enzymatic process are SHUT-DOWN, because carbs produce the release of insulin in your system, and insulin stops the enzymatic processes that allows you to burn bodyfat as a fuel source.
> 
> But wait! Calories are too low to fuel basal metabolism, and since your body can't burn fat what is left? Ahhhh, you guessed it! Protein! Where does this protein come from? Well first your body will convert the recently ingested protein to glucose, but that still doesn't cover daily caloric demands. So what next? Yup, your body starts catabolizing it's own muscle to use as a fuel source, and&#8230;..you LOSE!
> 
> ISO-Caloric Diets
> 
> This is the diet made famous by Barry Sears of the "Zone Diet" fame. The idea here is to make the diet as balanced between protein/carbs/fats as possible and reduce insulin secretion as much as possible. These types of diets do quite a bit better at holding onto muscle while beating down the fat than low-cal, low-fat diets, but once caloric levels get low enough to drop bodyfat levels at a reasonable rate, you will still be chewing up a bunch of muscle unless on a LOT of gear, and you won't really be on an ISO ratio if you are going to be getting enough protein to build/maintain muscle. These types of diets (with additional protein skewing a true iso-caloric profile) are GREAT while adding mass, but not really what the bodybuilder needs to get rid of bodyfat. Same problem as listed above arises since carbs/insulin are still present.
> 
> Keto Diets
> 
> These diets are based on the fact that when you reduce carbs to ZERO, and keep it that way for a period of anywhere from 12 hours to 48 hours (dependant an a variety of factors) your body will shift from first burning carbs, to then burning fats, to ultimately converting fats into ketones, and using the ketones as the primary fuel source. The name given to this process is ketosis, hence the name keto-diet. Keto diets are protein sparing, which means your body will tend to hold on to protein (muscle) which is exactly what we want when dieting.
> 
> These diets do work extremely well for dropping bodyfat while holding onto muscle. Just what the aspiring bodybuilder wants. So what's the catch? Well&#8230;&#8230;the catch is that to achieve and stay in actual ketosis, you usually have to be carb-free about 2 days. These diets are typically done by going without any carbs for 5 days (sometimes 6) and then doing a 1 or 2 day "carb-up" and repeating the cycle. Sound simple? Try it and then tell me how easy it is. If you can breach that stumbling block, you then reach the second problem. Without ANY carbs for so many days performance in the gym suffers. So while these diets are protein sparing, they don't allow you to go all out in the gym, and you end up losing strength because you are held at reign in the gym. The third big reason they fail many is because with zero carbs, and low calorie levels, thyroid metabolism tends to get S-L-O-W-E-R. Bad thing! Even with these drawbacks, this is not a bad diet for dropping bodyfat and definitely many notches above the previously mentioned diets. But&#8230;&#8230;there is a better way! Enter timed-carb dieting!
> 
> Timed Carb Diets
> 
> A timed carb diet works on the same basic principle as a keto-diet. Take away the bodies preferred fuel source (carbs) and provide enough fat in the diet that the body will switch to using fat as the fuel. But instead of going 5-6 days without ANY carbs, this diet allows you to take in carbs when they are most needed, and least likely to spill over into fat stores-right after the workout. Also, since we are not worried about actually hitting ketosis and staying in ketosis, if you slip, or just feel the need to bump up carbs a bit to replenish glycogen stores, you didn't just bump yourself out of the ketogenic state you just spent 2 days to achieve.
> 
> What do these diets accomplish?
> 
> Fat is burned as the preferred fuel source and protein (read that muscle) is spared.
> 
> Performance in the gym stays good.
> 
> Thyroid function remains higher for a longer period of time.
> 
> You don't go out of your head waiting 5 days to eat some damn carbs!
> 
> OK, now the how-to of a timed carb diet. Again, we are trying to get the body to switch from being a carb or protein-burning machine into a fat burning machine. Remember, if caloric levels are low, and carbs, thus insulin is high, your body will convert protein to carbs via glucogenisys and that is to be avoided at all costs. Anyway, to get on the path of burning fat as fuel, we simply remove the carbs out of the equation, AND keep fat in the diet at (at least) a 40-50% ratio. This lets the body know there is still a primary fuel source (fat) and allows it to be burned as fuel, while sparing protein
> 
> So, we decide to start a timed carb diet on Monday. Sunday night you cut out the carbs about three hours before bed. When you wake up in the morning blood sugar levels will be very low, and your body will be wanting some carbs---too bad, it doesn't get any! You will eat only fat and protein. Ensuring fat makes up at LEAST 40% of the caloric profile. You may have a leafy green salad with oil based dressing, or some string-beans, or other such low-carb veggie, BUT NO MORE THAN 6-8 grams of carbs per feeding. You keep this up right until pre-workout, where an apple is allowed IF you feel the need to put a few carbs in your system to raise energy levels. MOST guys do not find this to be necessary and if it does not provide a big advantage DON'T do it. If the carbs don't help much, have a small protein drink and proceed with the workout.
> 
> Post-workout, and it's time to replenish the carb-stores in the muscles you just worked. As the vast majority of you already know, immediately after a hard weight training session there is a "window of opportunity" in the muscle cell when insulin sensitivity is very high and the body is most receptive to nutrient uptake. So&#8230;..you slam down 65-100 grams of fast liquid carbs (malto-dextrin, dextrose, and yes, even sucrose will work). About 10 minutes later follow it up with a 65-100 gram whey protein drink. As soon as you are hungry again, you can eat a small "regular" meal with a 40/30/30 protein/carb/fat profile to "top off the tank" of glycogen stores in the muscle. Then, you are back to zero or trace amounts of carbs until the next workout.
> 
> You then repeat the this format for a maximum of five days, and then have a 1-2 day carb-up. On days that you don't train, you don't eat any carbs except for a green salad or two. You do not have to run these no carb to carb days for the full five days and for many of you, having a lower ratio of no carb Vs. carb days will be advantageous. Also you do NOT have to do the carb days back-to back. You may do a couple of no carb days, followed by one or more carb days. This is determined on YOUR metabolism and how fast you want to drop the bodyfat.
> 
> Pretty simple huh? Well, I haven't given you ALL the details, but close enough to get most of you at least much closer to being able to put together a successful diet plan on your own, and if you want to have ALL the details in place, consider having me train you!
> 
> Do's and don'ts:
> 
> If you don't keep the fat ratio AT LEAST 40% your body will just continue to use carbs as fuel. How does this happen if all you are eating is chicken breasts as an example? Well your body has no problems converting protein to carbs and WILL do this if it doesn't sense an alternate fuel source (fats.)
> 
> This type of diet tends to work best with lower overall workout days, so if you are a volume trainer who is in the gym 6 days a week (bad idea in any case IMO) you will see decreased results since every day will be a carb day. It will still work however.
> 
> Log your food intake for at LEAST a week to ensure you are hitting your numbers for both macro-nutrient profile, and overall kcals. You might just find out how far off you are from where you "thought" you were.
> 
> Your carb-up days are designed to refill the glycogen stores in the muscle, and bump up caloric levels a bit to keep your thyroid off balance. They are not go all-out berserk pig-out days. MANY, MANY lifters make this mistake and cancel out all the fat loss they achieved up until the carb-up day(s).
> 
> Do cardio when dieting. No it is not mandatory, but it makes such a big difference for such little effort and time expended that is extremely short-sighted to not include it as part of your fat-loss plan.
> 
> Don't be in a big hurry to drop the bodyfat. You didn't get fat overnight (well, some of you almost did) so don't try to lose it overnight. You should work along the lines of about this much fat loss a week:
> 
> 150-200 lb trainees, 1.5 lbs a week
> 
> 200-250 lb trainees, 2 lbs a week
> 
> 250+ 2 to 2-1/2b lbs a week
> 
> Going much more aggressive than that and strength gains will slow or stop, and catabolism may set in.
> 
> If you are just starting a reduced volume (or realistic training program) the scale may be worthless at first. Many people are able to gain a significant amount of muscle when dieting like this. Use the mirror and calipers (or better yet hydro-static weighing) to determine your rate of success.
> 
> You WILL end up looking flat by day 3-4, this is NOT representative of what you will look like when fully carbed-up. Remember, each gram of glycogen in the muscle brings 3 grams of water with it. When glycogen stores are down (and they will be) when doing low carbs you will "appear" smaller. It's just water, don't sweat it!
> 
> This type of diet lends itself well to getting a large percentage of daily caloric levels from protein powder and EFA's (essential fatty acids), and that makes it convenient to do.
> 
> I will at some point put out another article aimed at how to stay lean while adding mass, and as you might guess it is a variation of this basic format.
> 
> There you go, get that damn bodyfat off you and become a true bodybuilder. You know, one who isn't afraid to take his shirt off-lol.
> 
> And, again, If you want ALL the pieces of diet/routine and supplementation laid out for you including exact macronutrient and kcal requirements, consider having me train you!
> 
> 
> 
> *More timed carb diet options *
> ​
> I am Many people here do time carb diets to drop body fat and preserve or build muscle while dieting. As previously stated in my timed carb diet article, no, or low carbohydrate diets with periodic carb ups, and always ensuring post workout carb ups are completed are the best way to get lean while not sacrificing muscle. And if implemented properly, strength and mass will be built while dieting.
> 
> The way these diets are typically structured is to have a set amount of days where low or no carbs are consumed unless it is a workout day, and then have specific carb-up periods to replenish glycogen stores, help keep thyroid output high, and give the trainee a break from the low carbs. This keeps performance good and keeps a trainee sane while dieting. Some people though can have a problem with having three to five days with low or no carbs. While I do feel that the standard plan is the best approach to doing this, and the fastest way to drop body fat, I also understand it is not for everybody, and modifications can be used for some of these trainees that won't do it the traditional way.
> 
> A typical time carb diet might be four days without carbs (training days get carbs PWO, and a normal meal after) and three days where carbs are consumed. This can be kind of rough on some trainees for various reasons. And some guys just don't have the mental fortitude to go if three to five days without consuming significant quantities of carbs. If they stick with it after approximately a week and a half to two weeks they will find energy levels are fine and performance stays good. But&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;. getting some people to do the whole two weeks can be difficult. And I have heard every excuse in the world as to why can't be done some very valid some absolutely horrible. I had one guy tell me if he went more than five hours without carbs he would pass out. What I pointed out that it was a miracle that he woke up after sleeping for five hours he backed off on his exaggeration about how bad it made him feel. And the reality is no one no one will pass out after not eating carbs or not eating for five hours. But some people like to be dramatic.
> 
> Here are some options for people that won't or don't want to take the traditional approach to a time carb diet:
> 
> An every other day timed-carb diet. Yes, this is exactly what it sounds like. On day one you consume low or no carbs. On day two, you have a normal carb day. Repeat process indefinitely. Pretty simple huh? It works, and works well as long as you understand that the rate of fatloss will be half or less than half of a normal timed carb diet. And of course you can play with the ratios indefinitely, so you can do two days no carbs, one day carbs or vice versa.
> 
> Another approach, and one that works well for people that tend to be somewhat hypoglycemic is doing a half-day no carb, half-day carb. What works best is consuming carbs in the morning and then having a carb cut-off at a specified time, say two o'clock in the afternoon. After your carb cutoff, no carbs are consumed and the diet consists of protein and fat. This will allow fat to be burned at a more rapid pace than if carbs are consumed during those hours. Of course it is a compromise, but significant amounts of body fat can be lost over time, and it is a pretty comfortable diet to do. That is unless you get visions of ice cream dancing in your head about eight o'clock while watching TV-lol.
> 
> Remember low-calorie moderate to high carbohydrate diets will drop scale weight. The problem is, a lot of the weight lost will be muscle because insulin shots down the enzymatic process that allows body fat to be liberated. Insulin control is really what we are after here, no carbs = no insulin= body fat liberated = muscle preserved--simple as that! I hope these options gave you a couple more ideas for those that are hesitant or just don't have the willpower to go too long without their favorite carbs.
> 
> full credit to Iron Addict


Hey mate

This is a great read even tho an old post

Just wondering did u ever get round to doing one on keeping lean while mass?

Like u mention in this article u would do

Be really interested to read that if u did mate


----------



## Sharp161

I just started using this type of dieting have a couple of questions hopefully someone can help me with...

I have my diet set up 2800 cals which is 400 below maintenance.

1. Now on non training no carb days do i just cut out my carbs and thats it or should I replace them with extra fat so I stay around 2.8k cals?

2. On the high carb day do i just add in carbs ontop of my normal diet and have a high calorie day or do i just swap out the fats for carbs?


----------



## Kid Billy

Ive been contemplating doing a Low carb diet in order to try and drop a lot of fat, looking around the board and i came across this sticky on TIMED CARBS written by @Pscarb

1st of all cheers paul, it was very interesting read and helped me decide that this approach will be better than an all out low carb diet.

Just got a couple of questions though if people wouldnt mind helping me out on.

1st- if a low carb diet effects energy levels then how does a time carbs diet help stablise them when the carbs are being consumed after the workout?

2nd- whilst doing a timed carb diet to drop fat should i still count calories and do i need to be in a large calorie deficit?

3rd- on completion of the timed carb diet do gradually increase the carbs to get my body used to them again?

4th- when eating my carb free meals with salad and veg do i count the carbs that come from the salad and veg foods?

sorry if these are basic questions but i'm just trying to get my head round it before starting.

thanks


----------



## langy96

Cracking read. Definitely starting this Monday, my usual macro deficit cut isn't working aswell as it should, so will give this a go.


----------



## BlueRibbon

Brilliant thread! Thanks!


----------



## Jon.B

I am 5 weeks into a cut using the timed carb method and its working fantastic, bodyfat down from 18% to 14% and performance in the gym is still decent.

The question that i have to ask is where do you go from this diet when you have cut the fat required? I don't want to rebound and look **** or just stay at the same size forever....I will be bulking again in winter but don't want to turn into a flobbybuilder again. Would carb backloading be a good idea for bulking or carb cycling? Or just add more cals to the timed carbs?


----------



## langy96

Alright mate, started this time diet and realised even on low carb days I'm eating up to 20 indirect carbs, is this to much? Cheers


----------



## James s

Jon.B said:


> I am 5 weeks into a cut using the timed carb method and its working fantastic, bodyfat down from 18% to 14% and performance in the gym is still decent.
> 
> The question that i have to ask is where do you go from this diet when you have cut the fat required? I don't want to rebound and look **** or just stay at the same size forever....I will be bulking again in winter but don't want to turn into a flobbybuilder again. Would carb backloading be a good idea for bulking or carb cycling? Or just add more cals to the timed carbs?


Wondered this myself.


----------



## Kid Billy

langy96 said:


> Alright mate, started this time diet and realised even on low carb days I'm eating up to 20 indirect carbs, is this to much? Cheers


No mate, I get about 20-25g of indirect carbs (not counting carbs from veg) and I'm steadily dropping 2lb per week still.


----------



## monkeez

so if i i have got this right,

Non-training days: Zero to very low carbs, high protein and fats

Training days: No carbs during the day just high protein and fats then carbs straight after training in a shake and main meal then back down to zero carbs.

One day of the week as a carb refeed.

Do i stay at maintenance calories or below?


----------



## Kid Billy

monkeez said:



> so if i i have got this right,
> 
> Non-training days: Zero to very low carbs, high protein and fats
> 
> Training days: No carbs during the day just high protein and fats then carbs straight after training in a shake and main meal then back down to zero carbs.
> 
> One day of the week as a carb refeed.
> 
> Do i stay at maintenance calories or below?


Exactly right mate, Still below maintenance.

In don't have zero carbs usually between 0-25g of carbs non training days.


----------



## monkeez

Kid Billy said:


> Exactly right mate, Still below maintenance.
> 
> In don't have zero carbs usually between 0-25g of carbs non training days.


Cheers,

One more point for us tomorrow night just to make sure mate.


----------



## monkeez

If i'm having 6 meals a day what would be the % breakdown for these meals for the 3 different days?


----------



## Kid Billy

monkeez said:


> Cheers,
> 
> One more point for us tomorrow night just to make sure mate.


Yes mate but got to be honest, I'm still ****ting it until we get that point lol


----------



## Kid Billy

monkeez said:


> If i'm having 6 meals a day what would be the % breakdown for these meals for the 3 different days?


I don't use % for individual meals mate I just make sure each meal has protein and fat and that at the end of day i have had at least 60% fats.

Seems to be working well so far, dropping 2lb per week


----------



## monkeez

any point to this diet whilst on a cycle?

cyle wont be a bulking one, just a summer cutting/hardening one


----------



## Mun

Looking at starting this later on this week for a substantial period of time but struggling to understand my macros.

What sort of macro nutrient breakdown would be used?


----------



## AlexB18

Mun said:


> Looking at starting this later on this week for a substantial period of time but struggling to understand my macros.
> 
> What sort of macro nutrient breakdown would be used?


cant for the life of me remember where i read it, it may have been on here but i read somewhere that a recommended macros breakdown for timed carbs is 40% protein 50% fat and 10% carbs however dont quote me on that as i may have that confused with a Keto diet, though tbh mate you will just have to tweak it and see what works best for you, for example ive seen lots of people state that on rest days dont cut out carbs completely but for me personally having 2 zero carb days a week i find is more effective for me, with regards to refeeds again this is down to you i believe the point is to go over your maintenance and lower protein and fat intake but bump your carbs right up, for example these are the macros im running at the moment...

Training Days

P - 280

F - 190

C - 108

Rest Days

P - 304

F - 208

C - 11

Refeeds

P - 277

F - 49

C - 556

Took me a good month or so to tweak it to the point where the weight loss was stable week on week but this is what works for me. Best thing to do mate is just have a bash and tweak it to how you feel it will work it didnt work for me straight off at the beginning i was eating carbs everyday and i wasnt losing what i wanted to be hence why i introduced 2 carb free days during rest days. Im by all means no expert on this but thats my 2 pence for what its worth.


----------



## Munzz

AlexB18 said:


> cant for the life of me remember where i read it, it may have been on here but i read somewhere that a recommended macros breakdown for timed carbs is 40% protein 50% fat and 10% carbs however dont quote me on that as i may have that confused with a Keto diet, though tbh mate you will just have to tweak it and see what works best for you, for example ive seen lots of people state that on rest days dont cut out carbs completely but for me personally having 2 zero carb days a week i find is more effective for me, with regards to refeeds again this is down to you i believe the point is to go over your maintenance and lower protein and fat intake but bump your carbs right up, for example these are the macros im running at the moment...
> 
> Training Days
> 
> P - 280
> 
> F - 190
> 
> C - 108
> 
> Rest Days
> 
> P - 304
> 
> F - 208
> 
> C - 11
> 
> Refeeds
> 
> P - 277
> 
> F - 49
> 
> C - 556
> 
> Took me a good month or so to tweak it to the point where the weight loss was stable week on week but this is what works for me. Best thing to do mate is just have a bash and tweak it to how you feel it will work it didnt work for me straight off at the beginning i was eating carbs everyday and i wasnt losing what i wanted to be hence why i introduced 2 carb free days during rest days. Im by all means no expert on this but thats my 2 pence for what its worth.


Brilliant post that mate, much appreciated.

As with all diets it's trial and error but having a rough baseline always helps, now off to Morrisons to stick up on some good fats...


----------



## houria11

thank you for posting this post .


----------



## Munzz

What's the view on oats for breakfast? Logic says it's a no go for obvious reasons whilst following a timed carb diet but I see them chucked into most diet logs around here of those claiming to follow?


----------



## bail

Munzz said:


> What's the view on oats for breakfast? Logic says it's a no go for obvious reasons whilst following a timed carb diet but I see them chucked into most diet logs around here of those claiming to follow?


Up to the individual I would say,

Just keep in mind if you have carbs or Breakie then i would bring them down pwo so if the plan was 400 gram carbs pwo

But instead you have 80 in meal 1

Then logic dictates to drop pwo carbs 320


----------



## abcplumb

Great read :thumb:

@Pscarb

On a carb up day how many carbs should be consumed?

Which carbs are the best for this day and how many?


----------



## KletoReese

Incredible post! Thank You!


----------



## darren.1987

abcplumb said:


> Great read :thumb:
> 
> @Pscarb
> 
> On a carb up day how many carbs should be consumed?
> 
> Which carbs are the best for this day and how many?


Interested to know this too..

im guessing if your carbs are 150g on workout days could be 350-500g on a carb up day?

also lower fats to below 50g I think ive read that on here somewhere on carb up day


----------



## the_highlander

Great Read, Ive been on a Targeted Keto diet for my prep & its going really well, my only carbs is Glycofuse around Training =)


----------



## ChunkySteve

Good read - how well would this work when the only time I can train is 6am-8am?

How would I structure it?


----------



## Gacheru

According to kiefer who did write carb backloading you take some carbs post workout and te other carbs the evening before u train.


----------



## Gacheru

At what bf% does this become worth it? I already do IF but dont play around with carbs that much


----------



## KletoReese

ChunkySteve said:


> Good read - how well would this work when the only time I can train is 6am-8am?
> 
> How would I structure it?


Good question. I train at the same time as well. Currently I eat oatmeal and whey protein first thing upon waking up at 4.30am.


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## KletoReese

the_highlander said:


> Great Read, Ive been on a Targeted Keto diet for my prep & its going really well, my only carbs is Glycofuse around Training =)


Could you explain how Targeted Keto works?


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## AlexB18

KletoReese said:


> Could you explain how Targeted Keto works?


Targeted keto works same as a cyclical keto diet except you don't have refeeds and you only have carbs PWO rest of the time it's high fat low carb etc


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## KletoReese

AlexB18 said:


> Targeted keto works same as a cyclical keto diet except you don't have refeeds and you only have carbs PWO rest of the time it's high fat low carb etc


Thanks a lot! I prefer this way, refeeds are too much for my body. I do one cheat meal after 4 weeks, works out extremely well. When you are on keto how do you manage to keep your energy levels up?


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## AlexB18

KletoReese said:


> Thanks a lot! I prefer this way, refeeds are too much for my body. I do one cheat meal after 4 weeks, works out extremely well. When you are on keto how do you manage to keep your energy levels up?


Well never done keto myself properly mate I prefer the timed carbs approach personally, based on what I've read of people's experiences some people find energy levels are better high fat low carb I know I do but I have a stupidly strong coffee before training which helps with energy levels a lot because I train fasted you see, just see how you get on mate would be best thing to do


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## KletoReese

AlexB18 said:


> Well never done keto myself properly mate I prefer the timed carbs approach personally, based on what I've read of people's experiences some people find energy levels are better high fat low carb I know I do but I have a stupidly strong coffee before training which helps with energy levels a lot because I train fasted you see, just see how you get on mate would be best thing to do


Thanks mate, appreciate it!


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## Andy0902

Am I right in thinking that I can use an online calculator to work out my marco's for a keto diet and just use the same macro's for this 'timed carbs' diet?

This is what it's come up with...

2327	kcal Daily Calorie Intake

20	g Carbohydrates (3%, 80 kcal)

150	g Protein (26%, 600 kcal)

183	g Fat (71%, 1647 kcal)

90kg Total body weight

20% Approx body fat


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## AlexB18

Andy0902 said:


> Am I right in thinking that I can use an online calculator to work out my marco's for a keto diet and just use the same macro's for this 'timed carbs' diet?
> 
> This is what it's come up with...
> 
> 2327	kcal Daily Calorie Intake
> 
> 20	g Carbohydrates (3%, 80 kcal)
> 
> 150	g Protein (26%, 600 kcal)
> 
> 183	g Fat (71%, 1647 kcal)
> 
> 90kg Total body weight
> 
> 20% Approx body fat


Cant personally see any reason why you couldn't do that mate tbh, I mentioned it earlier in this thread (cant remember where) but I read somewhere that the recommended macros breakdown for this is 10% Carbs 50% Fat and 40% protein though I personally don't really stick to it as days where I don't train (refeeds aside) are carb free as I feel I benefit more from them, best thing to do mate just have a play about and try it see how you get on.


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## Andy0902

AlexB18 said:


> Cant personally see any reason why you couldn't do that mate tbh, I mentioned it earlier in this thread (cant remember where) but I read somewhere that the recommended macros breakdown for this is 10% Carbs 50% Fat and 40% protein though I personally don't really stick to it as days where I don't train (refeeds aside) are carb free as I feel I benefit more from them, best thing to do mate just have a play about and try it see how you get on.


Ta Alex

I'm going to try with these macro's from Monday morning. Ill see how I get on for a few days and slowly adjust the protein/fat ratio until I'm losing a decent amount of bodyfat per week.


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## AlexB18

Andy0902 said:


> Ta Alex
> 
> I'm going to try with these macro's from Monday morning. Ill see how I get on for a few days and slowly adjust the protein/fat ratio until I'm losing a decent amount of bodyfat per week.


Yeah that's what I did mate, I started off with having a small amount of carbs every morning even on days where I didn't train but I found it more effective for me with just having zero carb days, same with refeeds it only recommends 1 I believe but I personally use the whole weekend, good for cravings and im still losing weight off it so a win win situation just gotta find what works for you mate  good luck


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## KletoReese

Andy0902 said:


> Am I right in thinking that I can use an online calculator to work out my marco's for a keto diet and just use the same macro's for this 'timed carbs' diet?
> 
> This is what it's come up with...
> 
> 2327kcal Daily Calorie Intake
> 
> 20g Carbohydrates (3%, 80 kcal)
> 
> 150g Protein (26%, 600 kcal)
> 
> 183g Fat (71%, 1647 kcal)
> 
> 90kg Total body weight
> 
> 20% Approx body fat


Which calculator did you use? We are almost identical in body weight and fat. How tall are you and are you an Endo type?


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## Andy0902

KletoReese said:


> Which calculator did you use? We are almost identical in body weight and fat. How tall are you and are you an Endo type?


I used...

http://keto-calculator.ankerl.com/

5ft 10, yeah Endo.


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## KletoReese

Andy0902 said:


> I used...
> 
> http://keto-calculator.ankerl.com/
> 
> 5ft 10, yeah Endo.


Thanks Andy! By the way our stats are identical!


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## Andy0902

KletoReese said:


> Thanks Andy! By the way our stats are identical!


Awesome, if you start a journal make sure to tag me in so I can follow. :thumbup1:


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## the_highlander

KletoReese said:


> Thanks a lot! I prefer this way, refeeds are too much for my body. I do one cheat meal after 4 weeks, works out extremely well. When you are on keto how do you manage to keep your energy levels up?


I just take carbs during training (Glycofuse & peptopro) all other meal has fats, protein & fibrous veg included.

On rest days No Carbs.!


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## LJSurfa

Just read the lead article on this thread. Seems logical so gonna give it a try


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## TheStarkFactor

Hey,

Great article and I'm definitely up for giving this a try, to see if helps me past my current plateau.

Thanks to @Pscarb for the info.

Few n00b questions....

My current Whey Protein has the following nutritional breakdown, per 58g serving:










As this has more than 6g of carbs, I take it I wouldn't be able to use this during the day?

Also, the article says down 65g to 100g of malto-dextrin or dextrose, is this literally just bought as a powder than chugged down like whey protein after work out? Or should the 100g of dextose be mixed with the whey pwo?

Edit: In relation to the whey, is there anything stopping me using only one scoop, so halving the amount of carbs, then having say some eggs shortly after, then another scoop after that, so keeping it under 6g carbs and fairly well spaced out?

i.e.

08:30am - 1x Scoop Whey

09:15am - Scrambled Eggs

10:30am - 1x Scoop Whey

Also, last question, I am currently eating around 1800 calories on a traditional cut, non fancy diet. Current macros are 40P/40C/20F.

I weigh 12 stone and probably have around 18% bodyfat.

I still want to 'cut' but I'm not sure now how many calories I should be consuming under the 'timed carbs' protocol. Can anyone help?


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## TheStarkFactor

Sorry to post again, used the keto calculator posted a little further up and got these results.

32/M/5'10" | CW 168 | 19% BF | Moderately active

* 2266 kcal Goal, a 15% deficit. (1795 min, 2666 max)

* 25g Carbohydrates

* 130g Protein (82g min, 136g max)

* 183g Fat (131g min, 227g max)

How does this look?

I think the above would apply more to non-carb/non training days.

What do I do on training days as 25g carbs isn't enough?


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## 3752

i need to adjust a few things to keep this up to date.....

timed carbs is not keto, i am very busy at the moment with clients but will add a post to this in the next few weeks.


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## nealo

hey guys, recently iv been doing a keto diet and iv been sticking to it quite well! - looking after this because i dont see it as a long term diet as such at doing the timed carb diet.

What i was wondering if anybody can give me some suggestions on what to eat for the timed carbs, obviously i understand you are going to get carbs from the maltodex post workout and then the next meal you can eat carbs with protein and fat. Do you need to eat starchy carbs such as white pasta/rice or best sticking to brown rice/pasta?

A friend of mine is doing and has been for some time now a "carb backloading" diet, where you consume only fat/protein during the day and then post workout hes eating ice cream, pizzas basically whichever food he wants to replenish - on none training days he doesnt eat any carbs.

Looking for some suggestions on this please.


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## nealo

TheStarkFactor said:


> Sorry to post again, used the keto calculator posted a little further up and got these results.
> 
> 32/M/5'10" | CW 168 | 19% BF | Moderately active
> 
> * 2266 kcal Goal, a 15% deficit. (1795 min, 2666 max)
> 
> * 25g Carbohydrates
> 
> * 130g Protein (82g min, 136g max)
> 
> * 183g Fat (131g min, 227g max)
> 
> How does this look?
> 
> I think the above would apply more to non-carb/non training days.
> 
> What do I do on training days as 25g carbs isn't enough?


assume you would just consume more carbs post workout?


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## nealo

AlexB18 said:


> Yeah that's what I did mate, I started off with having a small amount of carbs every morning even on days where I didn't train but I found it more effective for me with just having zero carb days, same with refeeds it only recommends 1 I believe but I personally use the whole weekend, good for cravings and im still losing weight off it so a win win situation just gotta find what works for you mate  good luck


 CARBS	PROTEIN	FAT	FIBER	CALORIES

GRAMS per day	28.4	170.1	163.8	43 - 53	2268

GRAMS per meal	9.5	56.7	54.6	14 - 18	756

i got this with a keto calculator online, that seem about right or should my fat be higher than protein?


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## nealo

Replace this line with your question

---

*Generated by [Keto Calculator](http://keto-calculator.ankerl.com) 7.4*

29/M/6'0" | CW 213 | 23% BF | Very active

* 2715 kcal Goal, a 20% deficit. (2014 min, 3394 max)

* 25g Carbohydrates

* 130g Protein (99g min, 163g max)

* 233g Fat (155g min, 308g max)

----

Iv had this result from the keto calculator - im a construction worker and this is for days that im in work, working hard... does this look about right???

This is for days where im moderately active..

Replace this line with your question

---

*Generated by [Keto Calculator](http://keto-calculator.ankerl.com) 7.4*

29/M/6'0" | CW 213 | 23% BF | Moderately active

* 2285 kcal Goal, a 25% deficit. (1669 min, 3050 max)

* 25g Carbohydrates

* 130g Protein (99g min, 163g max)

* 185g Fat (117g min, 269g max)

----


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## nealo

Anybody offer any input? The results above are from a keto calculator... Should I follow this and on training days allow some timed carbs post work out? Or would I be better to just stick to the 25g carbs on both training days and rest days?


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## Eggp-1878

How many kcals below maintenance should I be going on the timed carb diet?


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## VeneCZ

I have a question, i have few actually. How can one gain strenght and muscle when being in calorie deficit and train with really low glycogen?

And I need another help. I normally take 400C,160-180P and 80-90F daily. This gives roughly 3000 kcal.

I train Monday and Tuesday upper/lower body powerlifting type and Thursday and Friday more bodybuilding type of training.

Can I split the carbs like this:

Mon - 500(carb up)

Tue - 500(carb up)

Wed - no carb

Thu - only post wk carbs (100-200)

Fri - same as Thursday

Sat - no carb

Sun - no carb

What is definition of no carb, what is the limit? Let's say 30g/day?

Also is it wise to go 500g carbs in two days in a row? It's because of the physically demanding training.

Also when I'd cut carbs to none right now, I cut my diet of 1600 kcal. Should I compensate no carbs days with another 1100 kcal from fat and protein to make the daily calorie intake deficit aprox. 500 kcal?

Thanks for any response and PScarb for a good article


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## 3752

Eggp-1878 said:


> How many kcals below maintenance should I be going on the timed carb diet?


as many as you need to lose fat, 500cals a day less is a good place to start



VeneCZ said:


> I have a question, i have few actually. How can one gain strenght and muscle when being in calorie deficit and train with really low glycogen?
> 
> And I need another help. I normally take 400C,160-180P and 80-90F daily. This gives roughly 3000 kcal.
> 
> I train Monday and Tuesday upper/lower body powerlifting type and Thursday and Friday more bodybuilding type of training.
> 
> Can I split the carbs like this:
> 
> Mon - 500(carb up)
> 
> Tue - 500(carb up)
> 
> Wed - no carb
> 
> Thu - only post wk carbs (100-200)
> 
> Fri - same as Thursday
> 
> Sat - no carb
> 
> Sun - no carb
> 
> What is definition of no carb, what is the limit? Let's say 30g/day?
> 
> Also is it wise to go 500g carbs in two days in a row? It's because of the physically demanding training.
> 
> Also when I'd cut carbs to none right now, I cut my diet of 1600 kcal. Should I compensate no carbs days with another 1100 kcal from fat and protein to make the daily calorie intake deficit aprox. 500 kcal?
> 
> Thanks for any response and PScarb for a good article


no one can tell you if it is wise to go 2 days at 500g of carbs as no one knows you and your body reacts.....

guys workout your calorie and your macro split based on the article then start it, you will need to adjust things to customise the diet method to you as an individual, but you need to start somewhere this article gives you that base to start with.

you have to do some work as well.....


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## Eggp-1878

I started the timed carb diet 2 weeks ago. I was already down 7lbs when I weighed myself before my workout earlier today & then I weighed myself again after my workout and I was only 5lbs down (drunk a load of water during workout). I hadn't eaten carbs since Wednesday as that's the last time I went the gym so not sure if that affects weight temporarily?

Is it normal to loose this much at first? I look a LOT flatter as well, not in a good way. My chest has basically gone. I'm getting a bit paranoid now that I'm just going to diet away everything I've worked for in the last year. I'm having 2200kcal a day & I weighed 167lbs when I started 2 weeks ago. I'm now 162lbs.

7/5lbs seems a lot in just under 2 weeks. It's my carb up day tomorrow so maybe that will balance it Out a little? Any input would be appreciated.


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## AlexB18

Eggp-1878 said:


> I started the timed carb diet 2 weeks ago. I was already down 7lbs when I weighed myself before my workout earlier today & then I weighed myself again after my workout and I was only 5lbs down (drunk a load of water during workout). I hadn't eaten carbs since Wednesday as that's the last time I went the gym so not sure if that affects weight temporarily?
> 
> Is it normal to loose this much at first? I look a LOT flatter as well, not in a good way. My chest has basically gone. I'm getting a bit paranoid now that I'm just going to diet away everything I've worked for in the last year. I'm having 2200kcal a day & I weighed 167lbs when I started 2 weeks ago. I'm now 162lbs.
> 
> 7/5lbs seems a lot in just under 2 weeks. It's my carb up day tomorrow so maybe that will balance it Out a little? Any input would be appreciated.


It is normal to look flatter yes as the glycogen stores in your muscles will be depleted hence them looking flatter than normal but after a reefed they should look how they did before if that makes sense, in regards to your weight loss have you only just started training after a long break or anything like that? or are you a newbie because if that is the case then it could all just be water weight but 7lbs over the course of 2 weeks isn't the worst that could have happened, if your high bodyfat ive heard some people say that this sort of loss is nothing to worry about just make sure you monitor and adjust if necessary.

Alternatively if the weight loss is still too drastic after a few weeks up your calories slightly because you might have gone into too much of a deficit too quickly.


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## LocoToro

Hi Guys,

Firstly I want to thank @Pscarb (and everyone else) for posting information and responses in this thread as it is extremely informational to people like me who want to learn about the finer points of nutrition. It really is an invaluable tool.

Now to my question.

I'm 5"8, 82kg (17%BF)

Lifting stats at ([email protected], [email protected], [email protected])

I'm very used to IF diet and find it relatively easy to do. But recently I cut down to 2000cals daily with macros at 50p:30f:20c and no more than 100g of carbs per day (every day) and I've experienced a very quick weight loss of about 6kg from 88kg. I am started to feel like I'm struggling to maintain my lifts, I feel so much smaller than im used to, and I also got ill (which is rare) so something is not right. This rapid weight loss is not usual for me because it usually takes me much longer to shed the weight but at the same time I do realise i'm really cutting down carbs.

I think i may have to adapt my eating to "carbs PWO" approach. My question is (forgive the ignorance) when you refer to carbs are you also referring to carbs made from dietary fibre or just sugars? and If I carry on doing the IF on off days (with the cyclical carb load) and training 4 days a week then I'm having PWO carbs 4 days a week - is that too much?

Thanks for you help in advance.


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## naturalun

@Pscarb just a question regarding timed carbs.

I'll be cutting at 2100 cals 'assisted on TTM, clen var and t3' would macro split 40f 40p 20c work out well? Also I shouldn't lose muscle at all right? Possibly gain some in a deficiency?

It works out at 105g carbs, 210g protein & 93g fat, I'm 180lbs wanting to cut from about 17-18% to around 10-12% if that helps you.

Cheers dude.


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## 3752

naturalun said:


> @Pscarb just a question regarding timed carbs.
> 
> I'll be cutting at 2100 cals 'assisted on TTM, clen var and t3' would macro split 40f 40p 20c work out well? Also I shouldn't lose muscle at all right? Possibly gain some in a deficiency?
> 
> It works out at 105g carbs, 210g protein & 93g fat, I'm 180lbs wanting to cut from about 17-18% to around 10-12% if that helps you.
> 
> Cheers dude.


I do love these type of questions, you have given me no real detail about you apart from your weight and gear course yet I am supposed to know if that split will work for you, er yes it will work??

How do you expect to gain muscle when you are in a deficit on your diet? Where would the growth come from if you are not eating enough calories to assist with growth, not being an ass mate....


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## naturalun

Pscarb said:


> I do love these type of questions, you have given me no real detail about you apart from your weight and gear course yet I am supposed to know if that split will work for you, er yes it will work??
> 
> How do you expect to gain muscle when you are in a deficit on your diet? Where would the growth come from if you are not eating enough calories to assist with growth, not being an ass mate....


Sorry my bad I suppose you can't really give an accurate answer to such a broad question, lots of variables involved just ive never tried carb timing so I also have no idea if it'll work well. I know you can't grow unless in a surplus but I read your thread and you mentioned about bare minimum keeping 100% of the muscle you already have so I assumed the maximum would be to gain muscle and I was curious how maybe I took it out of context, if so my bad.

Cheers anyway though.


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## 3752

The best way to see if a certain split will work is to try it give it 4 weeks and adjust accordingly, this thread is really to give someone a base to work from.

Your goal when dieting or wanting to lose weight should always be to retain the muscle you have...


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## andyhuggins

Bixx said:


> Bump for morning zzzz


What does that mean?


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## Darren 1972

Good advice got any on training 5 on 2 off i am doing tkd at moment 25g prwo 25g pwo thanks


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