# Is it possible?



## Gaz_1989 (Apr 30, 2009)

Would it be possible, if i posted a picture of where im at now, to see if after a cut i would look similar to the image below?

So basically could you see what lies beneath the fat? And tell me wether i need to bulk a little more?

Im planning on bulking till the new year anyway, feb/march and cutting for the summer.

But just want to know roughly where im at underneath the flab.

Cheers

Gaz


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## Darylbethyname (Dec 2, 2008)

i'm sure someone could take a guess?


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## BigBiff (Sep 30, 2008)

lovely tan mate


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## sizar (Nov 13, 2008)

that's that dude off bodybuilding warehouse lol .. i mean the picture lol


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## BigBiff (Sep 30, 2008)

sizar said:


> that's that dude off bodybuilding warehouse lol .. i mean the picture lol


is it not him lol


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## m14rky (Aug 11, 2008)

guys in great shape


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## Brawlerboy (Jul 8, 2009)

You've only posted one picture mate...


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## Darylbethyname (Dec 2, 2008)

Brawlerboy said:


> You've only posted one picture mate...


i think he wanted to make sure it was possible before he posted pictures of himself with high body fat?


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## Gaz_1989 (Apr 30, 2009)

Yeh mate that was the plan lol.

Im looking really out of shape at the mo, and to be honest i dont look like i even train in these pics, lol.

Here goes anyway...


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## Gaz_1989 (Apr 30, 2009)

Pics above,

Sorry theyre so big.

Am i being optomistic thinking that after another 6 months bulking, and then 4 months cutting i could look anything like the guy i originally posted a pic of?

I think i probably am, lol.

To get an idea of my progress, below is a pic of me last august before ANY training, then the second pic is after 4 months cutting (december 08).

Cheers

Gaz


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## The Bam (Dec 4, 2007)

the guy in the picture you have posted at the top is pretty lean I would say 8-10% And I would say you are above 20% So a long way to go, I would keep your bulk as clean as possible to keep your Body Fat Down. Are you planning of doing everything ooo Natural ?

Hope your well mate


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## Gaz_1989 (Apr 30, 2009)

Cheers for the reply Bam,

Yeh im staying natural for the time being.

My bulk wasnt very clean at first, ive cleaned it up alot now and have reduced the fat gains.

I appreciate ive got a long way to go in terms of fat loss, how far off his size would you say i was? Have i got LOTS more bulking to do before a cut? Or is it worth going for the cut sooner than later?

Cheers

Gaz


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## dudz (Oct 27, 2008)

TBF i don't think you have his shape underneath the excess fat and he does have a little more muscle than you, i'd suggest bulking for about 8-12 months and then see where you're at, then start cutting (how fun  ). Good luck fella' :thumbup1:


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## fxleisure (Apr 15, 2008)

I would start cleaning things up in Jan if your wanting to look lean for the summer.

If you are just cutting for summer there is no real consequence should you fall off the wagon with your diet (and chances are you will) so starting in March would be a little late if you ask me.

But what the hell, we are in England, chances are we will only get a couple of weeks of sun next year so I wouldn't worry too much


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## fxleisure (Apr 15, 2008)

dudz said:


> TBF i don't think you have his shape underneath the excess fat and he does have a little more muscle than you, *i'd suggest bulking for about 8-12 months and then see where you're at, then start cutting* (how fun  ). Good luck fella' :thumbup1:


As has been said before, bulking is a term that is missunderstood by many.

Lets say you are 20% plus bf, as The bam suggested. This isn't the best environment to build muscle so why not clean things up and get yourself in 'better' shape, then look to add small amounts of quality muscle?

Also by doing so, you will teach yourself a lesson in nutrition and how your body reacts to certain foods etc which will be priceless later down the line should you have any ambition to compete etc....


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## Gee-bol (Jul 2, 2009)

that guy in the picture is in great physical shape its gonna take more than a simple cut to look like him mate lol


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## fxleisure (Apr 15, 2008)

Gee-bol said:


> that guy in the picture is in great physical shape its gonna take more than a simple cut to look like him mate lol


Don't think he started this thread wanting to recieve non constructive comments like that.


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## Gaz_1989 (Apr 30, 2009)

Cheers for the positive comments guys,

Basically i wanted to know what its better to do, bulk now, cut etc. I will start cleaning things up now and start to introduce some cardio.

The original picture i posted is my aim for the near future, from there on i would like to lean bulk and slowly get bigger over the coming years.

I will take your advise FX LEISURE, i will clean things up now, then start a cut in january with the intention of keeping as much muscle as possible.

Then re-asses in the summer.

I just wanted to find out how much lean mass ive actually got, the guy in the pic was a stab in the dark and very optomistic.

Thanks to all

Gaz


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## dudz (Oct 27, 2008)

fxleisure said:


> As has been said before, bulking is a term that is missunderstood by many.
> 
> Lets say you are 20% plus bf, as The bam suggested. This isn't the best environment to build muscle so why not clean things up and get yourself in 'better' shape, then look to add small amounts of quality muscle?
> 
> Also by doing so, you will teach yourself a lesson in nutrition and how your body reacts to certain foods etc which will be priceless later down the line should you have any ambition to compete etc....


Good post mate. Reps. Should have pointed that out actually. Just didn't look like he had masses of muscle to begin with so cutting would be pointless, but yeah, i read somewhere that at lower bf%'s the human body is more inclined to put on muscle instead of fat so it'd probably be a good idea for him to get down to about 10-13% and then think about 'bulking', as you put he'll learn how important diet is to BB and he'll actually be able to see the results of his weight training (because of the lower bf%).


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## recc (Apr 27, 2008)

fxleisure said:


> Don't think he started this thread wanting to recieve non constructive comments like that.


Why is that not constructive? its a reality check. It can help everyone once in a while.

To the OP, even after a bulk then cut it is very unlikely you will look like that picture. Just have this inmind and dont be too dissapointed when you arent close.

As others have suggested probably do a cut to see where you really are then carry on from there.

Just so it doesnt sound like im being mean, i am currently on a cut and am a lot smaller than i thought, starting at over 20% bf. I had sort of convinced myslef i had more muscle than i did.


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## Gaz_1989 (Apr 30, 2009)

Yeh thats another reason i hate carrying the excess fat, any muscle i put on cannot really be seen, which is pretty dis-heartening as im training really hard.

Whats the best thing to do now?

Keep training for bulk and clean the diet up? Add in a little cardio?

Or start a cut now?

Cheers

Gaz


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## fxleisure (Apr 15, 2008)

recc said:


> Why is that not constructive? its a reality check. It can help everyone once in a while.
> 
> To the OP, even after a bulk then cut it is very unlikely you will look like that picture. Just have this inmind and dont be too dissapointed when you arent close.
> 
> ...


Its non constructive because he didn't offer advice or point him in a particular direction and his statement came across very derogatory.

IMO, a reality check would of been appropriate if Gaz had of come on saying hey guys, ive been sniffing around google and can't beleive how much this guy's physique looks like mine so ive put some comparison shots together. I reckon I can add another 5 inches to my biceps if I munch on 10 oxys a day - what do you reckon?

He was asking for an opinion, not stating he looked like the guy!


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## Gee-bol (Jul 2, 2009)

fxleisure said:


> Its non constructive because he didn't offer advice or point him in a particular direction and his statement came across very derogatory.
> 
> IMO, a reality check would of been appropriate if Gaz had of come on saying hey guys, ive been sniffing around google and can't beleive how much this guy's physique looks like mine so ive put some comparison shots together. I reckon I can add another 5 inches to my biceps if I munch on 10 oxys a day - what do you reckon?
> 
> He was asking for an opinion, not stating he looked like the guy!


well it certainly wernt meant to be derogatory.

the op poster does claim that he's wants this to be his aim in the near future..which im sorry but it just aint gonna happen anytime soon..the guy in the pics has obviously put the graft in for years what makes anyone think you can get there in the near future?


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## fxleisure (Apr 15, 2008)

Gaz

IMO you look a lot better in your before pics than you do now and that is not meant to offend you in any way. This leads me to beleive you have approached the whole 'bulking' route with limited knowledge on diet.

If you where to start again from your before pictures with the right diet training and rest, I am positive you would have a more muscular/ leaner look than your current pictures.

Clean up now mate and arm yourself with as much diet info from this site before you start again.


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## fxleisure (Apr 15, 2008)

Gee-bol said:


> well it certainly wernt meant to be derogatory.
> 
> the op poster does claim that he's wants this to be his aim in the near future..which im sorry but it just aint gonna happen anytime soon..the guy in the pics has obviously put the graft in for years what makes anyone think you can get there in the near future?


He wasn't stating that will be him in the near future, he was asking what his chances where!!!

The guy obviously aspires to have a physique like that in the picture which is a lot more realistic that aspiring to look like Ronnie Coleman any time soon!

Do you know Gaz??? How do you know he is not prepared to put the graft in???

Everyone has to start somewhere!


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## Miike (Jun 11, 2009)

Do you know the guy in the photos height and bodyweight mate?

I imagine you could get a rough idea of where you need to be yourself if you did?


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## Gaz_1989 (Apr 30, 2009)

Gee-Bol - I lack Knowledge and experience yes, thats why im here, but graft and dedication is something i dont lack, if i knew what to do and what route to take i would be 1000% dedicated. When i say near future, i dont mean next week, i was hoping to be in that condition in the next 12 months, i didnt say id have his exact physique.

FX Leisure - Again thanks for the comments and advise, When you say clean up, should i forget bulking for a while? Just try to drop a bit of fat?

Mike - Im afraid i dont know the guy in the picture so dont know any stats, hes just a mens health guy i think.

Gaz


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## hilly (Jan 19, 2008)

no you wouldnt mate but i would suggest cutting anyway atleast 2 stone


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## Gaz_1989 (Apr 30, 2009)

Hilly, cheers for the reply.

Whats the 'no you wouldnt' an answer to?

Cheers

Gaz


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## hilly (Jan 19, 2008)

no you wouldnt look like the guy in the pic if you dieted. i believed thats what you asked.


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## Gaz_1989 (Apr 30, 2009)

Yeh it is mate, cheers.

Wasnt sure what u were answering as ive asked a few questions since.

Thats fair enough, i think im gonna get leaner anyway just so i can see where im at.

If i do get lean, say 8%-10% is it really difficult to then bulk and stay that lean?


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## Gee-bol (Jul 2, 2009)

hilly2008 said:


> no you wouldnt look like the guy in the pic if you dieted. i believed thats what you asked.


thats kind of what im getting at...you could diet down and get to the same bf % but you will be left with no where as much muscle as pictureman..thats what takes the time building lean muscle.


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## Gaz_1989 (Apr 30, 2009)

OK dude fair enough, thats my questions answered then.

I was obviously being very optomistic thinking im anything like as muscular as that guy.

Cheers


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## fxleisure (Apr 15, 2008)

Gaz

To achieve that physique within 12 months is not practical mate. However making a dramatic improvement to your physique IS....!

Unless you have the correct diet in place you won't know your body's true potential and beleive me, manipulating your carb intake and consuming lots more protein can work miracles!

Like I said before, get yourself back to the lean state you were in from your before pics! Do you do any CV work at the moment?

You need a high protein,moderate carb/ fat diet and a structured CV workout as well as weights.


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## Miike (Jun 11, 2009)

Gaz, what's your height and weight at the moment? (if you don't mind me asking?)


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## Gaz_1989 (Apr 30, 2009)

FXLEISURE - Cheers mate, comments and honesty appreciated. I currently dont do any CV, i weight train 4 times per week at 6.30 am for 45mins to 1 hour.

Monday - Shoulders

Tuesday - Legs

Wednesday - Chest/Tris

Thursday - Off

Friday - Back/Bis

Saturday - Off

Sunday - Off

When should i introduce cardio? Pre-Workout on empty stomach? Or Post Workout?

Should i keep my weight training the same? 3 sets of 8 on most excersises, training to fail?

Thanks

Gaz


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## Gaz_1989 (Apr 30, 2009)

Mike - Im 6 foot tall and 100kg, 220lb.


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## Gaz_1989 (Apr 30, 2009)

For those interested, a typical diet for me is this... (Todays diet)

6am - Can of Energy Drink (500ml Red Bull or Similar)

6.30am - Training

7.30am - Pharma Gain Shake

8.00am - Bowl Oats with Whole Milk

11.00am - 100g Chicken Breast in 2 slices Seeded Brown Bread with Mayo

13.00pm - Tin Tuna and Tin Tomatoe Soup

15.00pm - 100g Chicken Breast in 2 slices Seeded Brown Bread with Mayo

18.00pm - Steak and Vegetables (usually meat and veg of some sort or pasta)

21.00pm - Pharma Gain Shake


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## Gee-bol (Jul 2, 2009)

try not to have carbs in pm mate


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## dudz (Oct 27, 2008)

Agree with FX again, you won't have his body in 12 months but you can *definately* make a HUGE improvement especially in these early stages of training, just to put into perspective of whats achievable within 12 months this is me last year:

Link

This is me about 10 months later:

Link2

Link3


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## Gaz_1989 (Apr 30, 2009)

Fukin hell mate, thats a fair gain in 10 months.

Fair play!


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## Gaz_1989 (Apr 30, 2009)

Gee-Bol - Should i start dropping carbs Just to Post workout? And drop the weight gain shakes?


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## Miike (Jun 11, 2009)

Gaz_1989 said:


> Mike - Im 6 foot tall and 100kg, 220lb.


Ok mate, bare with me as I'm pretty new to this but I reckon the guy in the photo would have to be about 93kg at 6' to look like that.

At 8% BF that'd be 85.5kg lean mass.

You're 100kg and and estimated 20% BF so 80kg lean mass.

Now I may be talking sh1t but that'd make you 5.5kg of muscle short of him.

There are lots of factors we've guessed, his weight and your bodyfats. But it's a rough idea.

Does that make sence or am I missing something?


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## Gee-bol (Jul 2, 2009)

weight gain shakes are no good if your looking to cut up..just full of simple sugars etc crap imo.

any carbs you eat pre-workout are burned up during your work out and also for about an hour afterwards when your muscles are still feeding...but anything after that they will be largely unused and stored as fat.


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## Gaz_1989 (Apr 30, 2009)

Cheers again for advice.

Mike - It makes sense what your saying, but i think thats a bit out, probably due to the guestimates in height, weight and BF %.

Should i do cardio before weights or after? Bearing in mind its on an empty stomach?

How does this diet look for cutting?

6.30am - Training (30 mins cardio, 30 mins weights)

7.30am - CNP Pro Recover (PWO Shake)

8.00am - 6 Egg Omelette

11.00am - 1 x Chicken Breast and Hanfull Cashew Nuts

13.00pm - 1 x Chicken Breast and Broccoli

15.00pm - 1 x Tin Tuna and Gaspari Myofusion Protein Shake

18.00pm - Meat (Chicken/Turkey/Steak and Vegetables or Salad

21.00pm - 300g Tub Cottage Cheese

Thanks

Gaz


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## Gee-bol (Jul 2, 2009)

Gaz_1989 said:


> Cheers again for advice.
> 
> Mike - It makes sense what your saying, but i think thats a bit out, probably due to the guestimates in height, weight and BF %.
> 
> ...


you train before youve had a meal??


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## Gaz_1989 (Apr 30, 2009)

Yeh i do.

I questioned it before i started a few months ago and a few people said that its fine and your body soon adjusts, which it does.

How does my diet look?

Cheers

Gaz


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## Gee-bol (Jul 2, 2009)

it might adjust but youd defo get more from your workouts with a few kcals in your system.

when your asleep your body is basically staved of food in a fasted state..the first thing you wanna do upon waking is give it some much needed protein..a shake with water is the best option as is obsorbed quicker.

about 30 mins after you could go with some whole meal toast with eggs whites..that should set you up to train...youl defo get more benifit from eating pre workout.


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## Gaz_1989 (Apr 30, 2009)

I cant fit that much food in pre-workout mate, I have to train at 6.30 am.

I could fit a small meal or shake in but this would only be 30 mins before training and is a little too close to training.

If im training on empty stomach am i best doing cardio or weights first?


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## T.F. (Aug 28, 2008)

Always weights before cardio IMO, otherwise you'll use up vital lifting energy, particularly in your case when you're not eating at all, before you train.


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## Gee-bol (Jul 2, 2009)

tbh its really not good for muscle growth training in a fasted state..your body is basically feeding off the muscle that your trying to make bigger.

if you pushed for time you could always eat some oats or weetabix with a scoop of whey added.


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## Gaz_1989 (Apr 30, 2009)

Cheers TF.

Does my diet look about right for cutting whilst keeping muscle?

Is it worth using BCAAs when on a cut?


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## Gaz_1989 (Apr 30, 2009)

Geebol - this is what i was told last time i had a thread all about training on an empty stomach...

I expect that if you had eaten absolutely nothing for a good many hours and had no fat reserves your bod would very likely turn to your muscle mass for energy.

BUT it would first tap into your muscles' glycogen reserves - which are significant - before actually turning any muscle itself into energy.

When you first try working out on an empty stomach you feel you lack energy, but after a few days you don't, and in fact feel bloated if you eat anything beforehand.

It's not surprising you can work out empty, as the bod has evolved to be able to flee even when hungry.

This was the deciding factor when i decided to start training on an empty stomach, that the body will use glycogen stores before using muscle mass to fuel workouts.


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## hilly (Jan 19, 2008)

Gaz_1989 said:


> For those interested, a typical diet for me is this... (Todays diet)
> 
> 6am - Can of Energy Drink (500ml Red Bull or Similar) have a banana and whey shake here
> 
> ...


 have either 4 whole eggs here or some whey protein and olive oil or natty peanut butter.

each whey shake get 30-40g protein

do some cardio pwo say 30 mins reasonable intensity heart rate 130ish. if you can do this cardio everyday of the week.

have a cheat meal once a week anything you want after 7pm. weight ureself each morning of the day you will have the cheat.

see how you get on then bump this thread when weight loss stalls and some1 may be able to adjust.

this is just what i would do obviously


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## essexboy (Sep 7, 2008)

Ok time for me to chime in. I train at 6 am, with only a mouthful of water in my system.Not having eaten before you train will make no difference at all.eat after you have finished training.Eat a well balanced diet,approx 300 calories a day over manitainence, to ensure you have enough left for any aditional growth.if you want to lose weight, cut back on calories.Forget split trainning.you need heavy compounds once twice a week, full body workouts, squats, chins, dips 1/2 sets to failiure.if you think you need more , you anit working hard enough.You are placing too much importance on diet.you MUST stimulate growth before diet is a factor, and then you will grow on any resonable diet.My diet is plain and boring, no protein shakes, very little protein in fact. lots of water and suffecient calories are all thats required.


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## hilly (Jan 19, 2008)

essexboy said:


> Ok time for me to chime in. I train at 6 am, with only a mouthful of water in my system.Not having eaten before you train will make no difference at all.eat after you have finished training.Eat a well balanced diet,approx 300 calories a day over manitainence, to ensure you have enough left for any aditional growth.if you want to lose weight, cut back on calories.Forget split trainning.you need heavy compounds once twice a week, full body workouts, squats, chins, dips 1/2 sets to failiure.if you think you need more , you anit working hard enough.You are placing too much importance on diet.you MUST stimulate growth before diet is a factor, and then you will grow on any resonable diet.My diet is plain and boring, no protein shakes, very little protein in fact. lots of water and suffecient calories are all thats required.


this is not true at all. you notice no difference weight training on an empty stomach to training on an afternoon with carbs/fat and protein in you. if this is true then you are not training hard enough and your diet is not good enough.

And also i think it is impossible to place to much important on diet. whats the point in stimulating growth if you dont have the cals to even maintain your bodyweight never mind grow.

i should add i notice atleast a 10% difference in weight moved in the gym if i train very early compared to on an afternoon when ive had 3/4 meals instead of 1 however i have never weight liften on an empty stomach and wouldnt its not a good idea.


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## BigDom86 (Jul 27, 2008)

ive trained once in the morning on 1meal, i will never do it again. intensity was greatly reduced, energy levels quickly plummet. i have atleast 4meals before training.

why do you have to train at 630am mate?

also i eat 30mins before i train too, and its usually rice and turkey


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## Gee-bol (Jul 2, 2009)

hilly2008 said:


> this is not true at all. you notice no difference weight training on an empty stomach to training on an afternoon with carbs/fat and protein in you. if this is true then you are not training hard enough and your diet is not good enough.
> 
> And also i think it is impossible to place to much important on diet. whats the point in stimulating growth if you dont have the cals to even maintain your bodyweight never mind grow.
> 
> i should add i notice atleast a 10% difference in weight moved in the gym if i train very early compared to on an afternoon when ive had 3/4 meals instead of 1 however i have never weight liften on an empty stomach and wouldnt its not a good idea.


+2

agreed mate


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## BigDom86 (Jul 27, 2008)

surely if your training on an empty stomach, especially after a 8+ hour fast this is actually dangerous when lifting heavy weight? i can just imagine doing legs :/ i would black out pretty quick


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## hilly (Jan 19, 2008)

very true mate its not a good idea at all. stupid actually IMO. your glycogen levels will be slightly depleted depending on how the previouse days carb intake went and ended etc. i certainly wouldnt recommend it but it may work for some.


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## Gee-bol (Jul 2, 2009)

it really cant be good for you...squats and deadlifts on an completey empty stomach is fvcking nuts imo.


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## BigDom86 (Jul 27, 2008)

atleast eat some cereal and have a protein shake or something. something you can eat in 5 or 10mins. atleast so something is in you


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## hilly (Jan 19, 2008)

IMO you want to get ure 45-1 hour before and eat some outs and protein and fat. maybe a banana thrown in as well. you want a complete meal.


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## fxleisure (Apr 15, 2008)

BigDom86 said:


> ive trained once in the morning on 1meal, i will never do it again. intensity was greatly reduced, energy levels quickly plummet. i have atleast 4meals before training.
> 
> why do you have to train at 630am mate?
> 
> also i eat 30mins before i train too, and its usually rice and turkey


The body has to adapt to training at different times.

Dom. You say you trained in the morning once and will never do it again. I guarantee if your lifestyle changed and you were forced to change your training times to suit, your body would adapt to it, whether you have had one meal or 4 meals before you train.

When I worked as a PT I used to work nights and train at 9am after just one meal. I now work 9-5 and train at 6pm after a day of eating. It was hard at first, but now I struggle training in a morning if I train on a sat or sun.


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## fxleisure (Apr 15, 2008)

hilly2008 said:


> IMO you want to get ure 45-1 hour before and eat some outs and protein and fat. maybe a banana thrown in as well. you want a complete meal.


Hilly, bananas are a SIMPLE carb, why would you consume this before a workout?

Plain old oats is all thats needed (with some whey) IMO


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## Gaz_1989 (Apr 30, 2009)

Cheers for all the replies.

I might try to change my workout to PM if i can, about 6pm.

I used to train in the evening but often get asked to work late and ended up skipping sessions etc, so started going in the morning before work and it has been working ok, not missed a session and same time every day so can get into a good routine.

Is it a good idea changing my workouts to 3 full body workouts? Just using compound lifts, followed by 30 mins CV? And also CV on rest days?

Baring in mind im going to start cutting now.

Can anyone move this to the JOURNAL section? I think this is a pretty good start to a journal with all the advice ive recieved and i would like to regularly update pics to show my progress.

Thanks

Gaz


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## hilly (Jan 19, 2008)

fxleisure said:


> Hilly, bananas are a SIMPLE carb, why would you consume this before a workout?
> 
> Plain old oats is all thats needed (with some whey) IMO


yes but as its consumed with other carbs, protein and fat the gi will be considerably lower and blood sugars will still be fairly stable. I feel ever meal should have some form of fruit unless dieting and even then its debatable.

the benefits of fruit are very important IMO of course.


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## Gaz_1989 (Apr 30, 2009)

I am going to start a timed carb diet, based on the sticky article in the fat loss section by IRON MAN.

It states that carbs should NOT be eaten upon waking, what should i have first thing in the morning pre-workout? Just a whey protein shake?

For the time being i cant move my training session from 6.30 am.

Cheers

Gaz


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## BigDom86 (Jul 27, 2008)

you havnt got enough mass to drop carbs. im not being rude but you gave a pic of what you want to look like on the 1st post, you need to put on alot more mass before thinking of cutting down


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## fxleisure (Apr 15, 2008)

BigDom86 said:


> you havnt got enough mass to drop carbs. im not being rude but you gave a pic of what you want to look like on the 1st post, you need to put on alot more mass before thinking of cutting down


Mass, bulk, etc.... etc.... These are all terms that are thrown around far too much.

I don't think Gaz has ambitions so compete (I may be wrong), just to achieve a leaner, more muscular physique!

I don't see any reason why he can't achieve this by cleaning up his diet and restricting carbs to complex ones with a more substantial quality protein intake. He hasn't stated he wants to be a 'MASS MONSTER' has he?

I think we all aggree, the picture he posted is very ambitious, especialy within 12 months.

I think there would be a lot less blubber knocking around if less experienced people didn't use a 'bulking up' phase as an excuse to consume poor food choices!

To summarise, don't drop the carbs, control them and clean them up !!!


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## BigDom86 (Jul 27, 2008)

ive never bulked or cut, as people like to put it. just be sensible with what you eat, and take it slowly. but i was going by the picture he put up, as this was the point of the thread


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## hilly (Jan 19, 2008)

As i have said he wants to diet first and as FX said this can be done just by cleaning up his diet etc.

Gaz carbs pre workout are a must mate have some oats 45mins to 1 hour before training. with whey protein and maybe some raisens. i would also add a banana in.

I would say aim for 150 carbs, 250 protein and 80fat per day to start with. keep carbs for morning and around workout, protein split evenly over 5-6 meals and fats higher in the evening from steak/salmon/olive oil etc.

I would not have any carbs after 5pm. when weight loss stops increase cardio.


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## leveret (Jun 13, 2007)

I wouldn't want to be eating that much food and cutting. 4 meals per day

#1 carbs / protein

#2 protein / fat

#3 protein / fat

#4 protein

+ PWO shake

lots of green veg, salad etc

train hard, appropriate cardio


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## big_jim_87 (Jul 9, 2009)

lol no its not going to happen


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## big_jim_87 (Jul 9, 2009)

you still need regular feeds when you diet! still 6 meals a day min!


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## fxleisure (Apr 15, 2008)

leveret said:


> I wouldn't want to be eating that much food and cutting. 4 meals per day
> 
> #1 carbs / protein
> 
> ...


As hilly and I suggested - he's not 'CUTTING' he's 'Cleaning up', theres a big difference!


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## MASSIVEMONSTER (May 28, 2006)

big_jim_87 said:


> you still need regular feeds when you diet! still 6 meals a day min!


Oh shut up with your advice, its worthless.....


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## big_jim_87 (Jul 9, 2009)

lol and yours is any better your a joke old man you got few years left then you go to sh1t! lol then no one will look at you and you will shrivel up and die! all down to the lack of attention!


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## bbeweel (Oct 7, 2008)

Ah big jim is in the house......................now come on buddy tell the truth your not really big jim at 5Ft 5in:lol:


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## MASSIVEMONSTER (May 28, 2006)

bbeweel said:


> Ah big jim is in the house......................now come on buddy tell the truth your not really big jim at 5Ft 5in:lol:


5ft 4 big Lee get it right....


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## Gaz_1989 (Apr 30, 2009)

Thanks for the further replies,

If your reccomending i CLEAN UP as Opposed to CUT, am i looking to maintain muscle and slowly lose fat?

FXLEISURE - Your right i dont want to compete, i would be happy with a mens health type physique ultimatley, maybe slightly bigger.

What sort of training will be the best? Should i keep to the split training im doing now?

Cheers

Gaz


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## leveret (Jun 13, 2007)

I suggest you cut till you have a nice lean body then slowly add mass following a good diet plan. In 8-12weeks you could have a nice figure, 6/8pack, good vascularity. Sure you won't be massive, but you'll look alot better. From there you can go into winter with a goal of adding maybe 1/2 lbs a month (slow and steady), keep a good bodyfat level.

This is what I am doing, I have lost bodyfat and imo look bigger / better + feel much better.


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## Gaz_1989 (Apr 30, 2009)

Cheers for reply Leveret, i agree with you completely, i would feel alot better lean, you are looking lean in your avatar mate!

Im going to try a timed carb diet, been reading up and it looks good.

How does this diet look for the next 12 weeks or so? And then i will re-asses where im at...

5.30 - Protein Shake, Banana and Oats - Blended

6.30 - Training (30 Mins Weights, 30 Mins Steady Cardio)

7.30 - CNP Pro Recover Shake, 3 x BCAA, Fish Oil Caps, Multi-Vitamin

8.00 - 6 x Eggs and 2 Slices Wholemeal Toast

10.30 - 1 x Chicken Breast, Small Salad with E.V Olive Oil

13.00 - 150g Steak Mince with Handfull Broccoli, 3 x BCAA

15.30 - 1 x Chicken Breast, Apple or Pear

18.00 - Salmon Fillet, Small Salad with E.V Olive Oil, 3 x BCAA

21.00 - 300g Tub Cottage Cheese, 1/2 Pint Whole Milk

Cheers

Gaz


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## Dipster (Jul 21, 2009)

leveret said:


> I suggest you cut till you have a nice lean body then slowly add mass following a good diet plan. In 8-12weeks you could have a nice figure, 6/8pack, good vascularity. Sure you won't be massive, but you'll look alot better. From there you can go into winter with a goal of adding maybe 1/2 lbs a month (slow and steady), keep a good bodyfat level.
> 
> This is what I am doing, I have lost bodyfat and imo look bigger / better + feel much better.


Excellent advice, the last think Gaz needs to do is BULK up and get fat, I agree 100% with everything Fxleisure said.


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## hilly (Jan 19, 2008)

Gaz_1989 said:


> Cheers for reply Leveret, i agree with you completely, i would feel alot better lean, you are looking lean in your avatar mate!
> 
> Im going to try a timed carb diet, been reading up and it looks good.
> 
> ...


i like it only thing i would change would be to remove the olive oil from the 18:00 meal as salmon should have alot of good fat in anyway. also the 21:00 meal ditch the milk and add a scoop or 2 of protein. this meal should have a total of 30-40g protein in and very little carbs.


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## leveret (Jun 13, 2007)

Gaz_1989 said:


> 5.30 - Protein Shake, Banana and Oats - Blended
> 
> 6.30 - Training (30 Mins Weights, 30 Mins Steady Cardio)
> 
> ...


I would:

Drop the bread, cottage cheese and 1/2 pint of milk.

200g ham / chicken pre bed with 1 scoop protein.

Rest of your meals look ok, nicely spread out, I would find it hard to stick to long term though.

Remember every 2 weeks or so tweak diet / add cardio to keep things moving along.


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## fxleisure (Apr 15, 2008)

IMO I think more carbs could be consumed.

As leveret suggested, the premise looks good, but could become hard to stick to quite quickly!

With a little more carbs at the start, they could be tapered down as the weeks go by depending on the progress made!

Remember, we're not 'CUTTING' we are 'CLEANING'


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## Gaz_1989 (Apr 30, 2009)

Cheers folks, think im finally getting somewhere,

Regards sticking to it, i will just do it, lol. Ive got alot of willpower and if this is going to work for me, i will stick to it regardless.

Leverett, why drop the bread and cott. cheese mate?

Cheers to all who have helped so far, i will keep this thread open and post progress pics accordingly.


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## essexboy (Sep 7, 2008)

hilly2008 said:


> this is not true at all. you notice no difference weight training on an empty stomach to training on an afternoon with carbs/fat and protein in you. if this is true then you are not training hard enough and your diet is not good enough.
> 
> And also i think it is impossible to place to much important on diet. whats the point in stimulating growth if you dont have the cals to even maintain your bodyweight never mind grow.
> 
> i should add i notice atleast a 10% difference in weight moved in the gym if i train very early compared to on an afternoon when ive had 3/4 meals instead of 1 however i have never weight liften on an empty stomach and wouldnt its not a good idea.


firstly what advantage is gained by having a full stomach when you train? ill tell you none.The food you eat in the hour leading to a w/o has hardly beern digested anyway.All you are doing is directing energy, and blood directly away from the muscles, to digest the food. it can have no bearing on the performance of the w/o. You are basing your response, on tradition, not scientic fact.Post w/o is when you need nutrients to return gylcogen levels to normal.Any growth that may have been stimulated is not going to occur immediately. The body has to recover from the stressor, before growth can occur.

RE your first point.i can assure you that my diet is more than adequate.I eat enough variety and quantity, to sustain my bodys needs.I also train hard enough.I can assure you that 20 plus reps, to positive failure, then another 30 seconds akintically on a duo squat, which spikes my hr rate at 180, for 3/4 mins, is about as hard as it gets.good luck fella.





 the yelling isnt me.


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## Gaz_1989 (Apr 30, 2009)

Cheers Essex Boy,

I think this topic is VERY debatable on here, ive trained for a few months on empty with no problems but alot of people dis agree.

A couple more questions about my diet...

5.30 - 2 Scoops Myo Fusion, Banana and Oats - Blended With Milk or Water?

6.30 - Training (30 Mins Weights, 30 Mins Steady Cardio)

7.30 - CNP Pro Recover Shake With Water?, 3 x BCAA, Fish Oil Caps, Multi-Vitamin

8.00 - 6 x Eggs and 2 Slices Wholemeal Toast

10.30 - 1 x Chicken Breast, Small Salad with E.V Olive Oil

13.00 - 150g Steak Mince with Handfull Broccoli, 3 x BCAA

15.30 - 1 x Chicken Breast, Apple or Pear Is Fruit OK Here?

18.00 - Salmon Fillet, Small Salad Removed Olive Oil Here 3 x BCAA

21.00 - 300g Tub Cottage Cheese 2 Scoops Myo Fusion in Water

Should i keep this the same on non-workout days? or drop the carbs completely?


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## BigDom86 (Jul 27, 2008)

ive never seen that machine wtf is it squat duo, loooks interesting


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## hilly (Jan 19, 2008)

essexboy said:


> firstly what advantage is gained by having a full stomach when you train? ill tell you none.The food you eat in the hour leading to a w/o has hardly beern digested anyway.All you are doing is directing energy, and blood directly away from the muscles, to digest the food. it can have no bearing on the performance of the w/o. You are basing your response, on tradition, not scientic fact.Post w/o is when you need nutrients to return gylcogen levels to normal.Any growth that may have been stimulated is not going to occur immediately. The body has to recover from the stressor, before growth can occur.
> 
> RE your first point.i can assure you that my diet is more than adequate.I eat enough variety and quantity, to sustain my bodys needs.I also train hard enough.I can assure you that 20 plus reps, to positive failure, then another 30 seconds akintically on a duo squat, which spikes my hr rate at 180, for 3/4 mins, is about as hard as it gets.good luck fella.
> 
> ...


i agree on the full stomach i would rather get up 1.5 -2 hours before training and eat then maybe go back to bed however some arnt able/willing to do this.

So you are telling me that PWO nutrition is far more important than pre workout nutrition is that correct and that training on depleted glycogen levels is just as effective as training when glycogen levels are full. remember i suggested a banana as well for some fact acting carbs to help get some glycogen into the muscle. You say your body has to recover from the stressor befor growth can occur but are you not going to lag un effort during the stressor due to depleyted energy/glycogen/protein levels which will hinder growth later which is the overall goal.

I am of the opinion lately that to much emphasis is put on pwo nutrition if a persons whole diet is intact however this obviously alters slightly due to early morning training so i am interested in your opinions im not being arsy.

Im not arguing against which is better just from personal experience of myself and others. weight training on an empty stomach is a bad idea. surely seem as you like to talk about scientific knowledge you already know this tho??

i also wasnt having a dig at your training mate just trying to make a point about the training on an empty stomach first thing effecting most peoples strength and energy levels.


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## Dipster (Jul 21, 2009)

essexboy said:


> firstly what advantage is gained by having a full stomach when you train? ill tell you none.The food you eat in the hour leading to a w/o has hardly beern digested anyway.All you are doing is directing energy, and blood directly away from the muscles......


Very True Indeed !


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## leveret (Jun 13, 2007)

Gaz_1989 said:


> Leverett, why drop the bread and cott. cheese mate?


I would stick to oats as much as possible for your carbs, perhaps brown rice, pasta etc. Either do that now or the bread will be one of the first things to go when the 'tweaking' begins.

With regards to the cheese, I found that it kept my calories too high. Prefer the ham / chicken pre bed.


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## Gaz_1989 (Apr 30, 2009)

Okay cheers Leverett, i will see how i go.

To be honest compared to what ive been eating, my new diet is ALOT less calories and carbs, so im hoping to see some rapid fat loss. As well as the fact that i will be doing 30 mins cardio after weights 4 times per week.

But as you say, if tweeking is required in 4 weeks or so, i will drop the bread.

Can anyone answer my other questions, about diet on non-training days?

Cheers

Gaz


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## leveret (Jun 13, 2007)

Keep it the same, minus the pre workout shake / post workout shake.

I couldn't help but notice you're taking 9 bcaa tablets a day, is that everyday or just workout ones? Seems abit excessive to me


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## Gaz_1989 (Apr 30, 2009)

Cheers fella.

I havent used BCAAs before, the lad i train with has just got a tub and says to take between 8 and 10 a day, spread between meals, so was basing it on that. I will obv dose according to the intsructions.

Ta

Gaz


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## 54und3r5 (Apr 11, 2008)

I would personally forget about a bulk and cut down your bodyfat before you think about going on a bulk


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## Gaz_1989 (Apr 30, 2009)

Cheers mate, thats what ive decided to do.

Just trying to finalise a few things on my diet.


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## essexboy (Sep 7, 2008)

hilly2008 said:


> i agree on the full stomach i would rather get up 1.5 -2 hours before training and eat then maybe go back to bed however some arnt able/willing to do this.
> 
> So you are telling me that PWO nutrition is far more important than pre workout nutrition is that correct and that training on depleted glycogen levels is just as effective as training when glycogen levels are full. remember i suggested a banana as well for some fact acting carbs to help get some glycogen into the muscle. You say your body has to recover from the stressor befor growth can occur but are you not going to lag un effort during the stressor due to depleyted energy/glycogen/protein levels which will hinder growth later which is the overall goal.
> 
> ...


Hilly, im fully aware of the argument re depleted glycogen levels etc.however dont be fooled into thinking that after waking in the morning that your all out of everything! lets assume another scenario.If at waking you found a lion sitting on the egde of your bed, do you think having eaten a banana two hours earlier , would increase the ferocity that you fought to defend yourself? course it wouldnt.mental tenacity and desire are what really fuels workouts.Please dont be misguided by the incredible marketing that revolves around the supplement industry either.I know you wasnt having a dig, i ve read most of your journals.You seem like a goodguy.

All i can recount is my experiences. i used to leave home at 4.30 am to drive for an hour to train. the only thing i made sure i did was to remain suitably hydrated.food was not a concern.In fact, post workout hunger, was always a good indicator for me.If i left the gym, feeling like a starving lion, i know that ive created a fight or flight response, and would be stronger next w/o. best


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## essexboy (Sep 7, 2008)

BigDom86 said:


> ive never seen that machine wtf is it squat duo, loooks interesting[/quoteArthur jones of nautilus designed it in the eighties.Jones was confident that the squat was the most productive exercise.However it has limitations.apart from safety issue, when you fail, you know that the top third portion, is far easier due to bio- mechanical advantages.The duo, has a negative cam.the initial weight triples during the final portion of the rep.So instead of getting a rest, as you rise, it becomes harder. much much harder.as you are using it iso laterally, you can fail, without, becoming trapped, as in bb squats.the intensity you can generate is amazing.so much so that i now own that machine in the film.I had to have it when the gym closed.its addictive, you can feel your legs burn right to the bone, as you heart rate spikes, which you dont notice, because your still trying to figure out how to walk.it weighs 1300lb,so moving it is difficult. you can find Jones talking about it on you tube.


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## BigDom86 (Jul 27, 2008)

do you have this in your house then? i take its a one leg at a time movement?


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## hilly (Jan 19, 2008)

essexboy said:


> Hilly, im fully aware of the argument re depleted glycogen levels etc.however dont be fooled into thinking that after waking in the morning that your all out of everything! lets assume another scenario.If at waking you found a lion sitting on the egde of your bed, do you think having eaten a banana two hours earlier , would increase the ferocity that you fought to defend yourself? course it wouldnt.mental tenacity and desire are what really fuels workouts.Please dont be misguided by the incredible marketing that revolves around the supplement industry either.I know you wasnt having a dig, i ve read most of your journals.You seem like a goodguy.
> 
> All i can recount is my experiences. i used to leave home at 4.30 am to drive for an hour to train. the only thing i made sure i did was to remain suitably hydrated.food was not a concern.In fact, post workout hunger, was always a good indicator for me.If i left the gym, feeling like a starving lion, i know that ive created a fight or flight response, and would be stronger next w/o. best


see this just goes to show we are all different. i cant train on an mepty stomach at all i need atleast 2 meals in me. my strength takes a good dip no matter what my mood is like and i seem to run out of steam easier as well.


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## Gaz_1989 (Apr 30, 2009)

Im training at 4.30 pm today,

Last wednesday i did chest and tris on an empty stomach on waking, today ive had 5 meals already, just had a bowl of oats and whey.

Will see if theres any difference in lifts and sets etc.

Gaz


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## BigDom86 (Jul 27, 2008)

ok, what kind of weights are you shifting on an empty stomach? then you can compare it to when you have food in you. i know for a fact theres no way i would be squatting or benching anything with nothing in me


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## pastanchicken (Sep 29, 2008)

BigDom86 said:


> ok, what kind of weights are you shifting on an empty stomach? then you can compare it to when you have food in you. i know for a fact theres no way i would be squatting or benching anything with nothing in me


I agree with that, tried it a few years ago and it didn't go well.

Having then said, I'm not used to it, however I'd rather train later in the day


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## BigDom86 (Jul 27, 2008)

i dont see the point in getting used to it. you dont *have* to train on a empty stomach


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## Guest (Aug 5, 2009)

That guy has a fair bit of mass to be honest.

People ALWAYS overestimate how much quality muscle they have when their body fat is over 10%.

However in 2-3 year years of commitment you could look like this.


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## BigDom86 (Jul 27, 2008)

Con said:


> That guy has a fair bit of mass to be honest.
> 
> People ALWAYS overestimate how much quality muscle they have when their body fat is over 10%.
> 
> However in 2-3 year years of commitment you could look like this.


this is true. i know if i cut id look like poo, so im not gona cut


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## pastanchicken (Sep 29, 2008)

BigDom86 said:


> i dont see the point in getting used to it. you dont *have* to train on a empty stomach


agreed :thumbup1:


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## essexboy (Sep 7, 2008)

BigDom86 said:


> do you have this in your house then? i take its a one leg at a time movement?


 in the garage as from next week, its in my yard being repainted and trimmed.yeah , one leg, then the other.however if you adjust the seat correctly the resting leg, is not locked out and remains under tension.


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## BigDom86 (Jul 27, 2008)

essexboy said:


> in the garage as from next week, its in my yard being repainted and trimmed.yeah , one leg, then the other.however if you adjust the seat correctly the resting leg, is not locked out and remains under tension.


does look interesting i must say.

how comes nautilus machines are about nowadays then if theyre so great? ive seen a few dvds and they mention them in, remember in a dorian one he goes on about how this is the old nautilus one etc


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## Gaz_1989 (Apr 30, 2009)

I trained last night after having a day of feeding and a pre-workout meal of oats and whey.

To be honest it wasnt a fair 'experiment' as my usual training partner couldnt make the gym, so i started off on my own.

After 5 mins, i was on the chest press and a bloke asked if he could train while i was resting, so i agreed. It turns out this guy is a personal trainer from manchester and only up here for 4 weeks, he was about 5' 5 tall and 13.5 stone and really lean, so had some good size to him. We had a mega session, im sure part of it was because he was spurring me on, and i wanted to lift what he was lifting so i didnt look ****, lol.

However on the other hand, i dont think i could of had that sort of a training session on an empty stomach. I usually bench 90kg for 2-3 reps. Last night i did 90kg for 6 reps and 100kg for 2 reps. Most of my other lifts were much heavier and for more reps than usual too.

Like i said, this could be mostly because of the guy i was training with and the frame of mind i was in, however i think i will be getting up at 5.30 am in future to have a meal of oats, whey and bannana blended in a pint of milk.

Cheers

Gaz


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## BigDom86 (Jul 27, 2008)

good work mate


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## hilly (Jan 19, 2008)

having a training partner can help it could have been a factor of things. its all about finding out what works for you


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## Gaz_1989 (Apr 30, 2009)

Yeh cheers hilly. Im going to start eating at 5.30am for 4 weeks and then go 4 weeks on an empty stomach and see if my training is affected and if the fat loss is aided or hindered.

Cheers


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## hilly (Jan 19, 2008)

good thinking. another option would be to have a shake around 2am in the morning that contained a protein and oats. Personally i would do this if i trained early in the morning or if i say trained at 6am i would set an alarm for 4am and nock the protein and oats into me then go back to bed but thats just me.

i have a sensitive stomach so dont like to train within an hour of eating.


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## DNC (Jan 8, 2009)

Good thread,been enjoying reading everyones replies.I've tried training in the morning after just 1 meal and found within 20 mins that i was wiped out.For me i defo need 3 or 4meals inside me to complete a session.


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## Gaz_1989 (Apr 30, 2009)

hilly2008 said:


> good thinking. another option would be to have a shake around 2am in the morning that contained a protein and oats. Personally i would do this if i trained early in the morning or if i say trained at 6am i would set an alarm for 4am and nock the protein and oats into me then go back to bed but thats just me.
> 
> i have a sensitive stomach so dont like to train within an hour of eating.


Thats a good idea hilly, well ive got a baby on the way (Mrs is 4 months gone) so im sure i will be up at loads of random hours in the night, giving plenty of opportunity to neck a shake of protein and oats.

Should this shake be with water or milk? Would it matter?

Cheers

Gaz


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## Gaz_1989 (Apr 30, 2009)

DNC said:


> Good thread,been enjoying reading everyones replies.I've tried training in the morning after just 1 meal and found within 20 mins that i was wiped out.For me i defo need 3 or 4meals inside me to complete a session.


Cheers mate, i wasnt planning on it turning into this big a thread, but ive learnt so much in this thread alone.

Just wanna take the opportunity to thank everyone who has contributed to this thread and given me there opinion and advice!

Cheers


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## hilly (Jan 19, 2008)

water i would say mate.


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## essexboy (Sep 7, 2008)

BigDom86 said:


> does look interesting i must say.
> 
> how comes nautilus machines are about nowadays then if theyre so great? ive seen a few dvds and they mention them in, remember in a dorian one he goes on about how this is the old nautilus one etc


Dom. Jones sold up in 1986 and started medex.i have few other machines from this period.The reason you dont see them is likely cost.as they are made in the usa you have shipping too. the duo-squat was £3000 20 years ago!! i train on the later "nitro" series at my gym.once you have experienced using a cammed machine its difficult to go back to free wieghts. When Jones sold up, his son Gary developed hammer strength, which he designed to be a cheaper alternative to nautilus, using leverage not cams.Yates has a first gen plateloading pullover in his gym, from 1970/71. they are rare and valuable,. my mate in sunderland has one,which im trying to buy from him.


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## BigDom86 (Jul 27, 2008)

essexboy said:


> Dom. Jones sold up in 1986 and started medex.i have few other machines from this period.The reason you dont see them is likely cost.as they are made in the usa you have shipping too. the duo-squat was £3000 20 years ago!! i train on the later "nitro" series at my gym.once you have experienced using a cammed machine its difficult to go back to free wieghts. When Jones sold up, his son Gary developed hammer strength, which he designed to be a cheaper alternative to nautilus, using leverage not cams.Yates has a first gen plateloading pullover in his gym, from 1970/71. they are rare and valuable,. my mate in sunderland has one,which im trying to buy from him.


thanks for the info mate. id love to try some of these machines. reps


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