# Fertility... It's not that difficult



## swole troll (Apr 15, 2015)

Due to high demand and me being bombarded over the years on what is a concerning subject for many enhanced and naturals alike (although this thread aimed largely at the former) here is as promised the blanket advice I've been giving for years on how to regain, maintain or optimize your fertility.

I will only cover the male side of things in this thread as this is the lesser discussed half of the fertility equation and the most relevant for a forum with many of it's members abusing AAS and shutting down of their HPTA.

so with all that said lets get to it.

First off, do NOT assume that just because you are using or have used AAS that you are infertile, this is about as accurate a correlative conclusion to make as 'using AAS *will* make me bald', there is a high probablity that AAS will affect your hairline no matter what even if not distinctly noticeable, but to assume that you will go Patrick Stewart levels of bald as an inevitability is incorrect.

The same can be said for fertility. Chances are your sperm count, motility and morphology will be affected by using AAS and shutting down your HPTA but as I have said on here many a time "Steroids are a poor form of contraception"

And remember I said that the chances are that your fertility will still be negatively impacted to some degree, well if you are already starting from a less than ideal postion as a natural (circa or sub 15,000,000/ml) then that negative impact from AAS no matter how great or small will still be playing against your chances of a successful conception.

Also prudent to bear in mind that on average around 5% of all males are infertile
A unique view on male infertility around the globe

So what do we do?

first things first, full sperm count and quality test (count, morphology and motility), if all comes back well then just keep trying, it's free.

Assuming you are low (>15 million) or at zero you have several options.

You need to decide whether or not you want to continue using androgens whilst trying to conceive, full blown blast or legitimate trt, makes no difference if choosing to stay on (with one caveat)

If the answer is yes you want to stay on cycle or trt then avoid 19nors ( The synthetic progestin levonorgestrel is a potent androgen in the three-spined stickleback (Gasterosteus aculeatus) - PubMed ) and run a combo of hcg and hmg, 3000iu split into 3 shots weekly and 150-225iu split into 2-3 shots weekly respectively.

An example protocol and the one I advised to Boom in his popular fertility thread ( Booms Baby Making Protocol ) is
1000iu HCG on Monday, Wednesday and Friday
75iu HMG on Monday and Friday

Many have also had success with simply implementing HCG and I would first try this for 3 months prior to introducing HMG as this allows enough time for full sperm maturation and may save you the cost of HMG.

(if after 3-6 months of HCG therapy and a further 3-6 months of combined HMG therapy your sperm count is still at zero, you are almost certainly completely infertile, but I am yet to come accross this either online, via DMs or in real life, so it's rare but not impossible)


If you wish to come off to try to conceive but not battle through the grueling process of full HPTA recovery then cease all AAS and take 25-50mg of clomiphene daily and test your LH and FSH once you've allowed sufficient time for the esters of your last shot to clear, if gonadotopins come back within range then give it a few months and retest full sperm count, morphology and motility to ensure that now the hypothalamus and pituitary have responded, so too have the testicles.

With option one you're bypassing the brain aspect (*HP*ta) of the axis so assuming your sertolli and leydig cells (hp*T*a) still have life in them this will work even on cycle.

Option two you're assuming that both the pituitary and testicals are functioning but removing the need for a complete natural 'reboot' and instead relying on the SERM to stimulate the hypothalamus and then downstream function of the full HPTA.

Option three is of course to just come off and run a PCT but this will be by far the lengthiest and most uncomfortable option, unless you're really prone to clomiphene sides as some people are, don't assume that you are though based on feedback of others, I for instance tolerate it with zero problems even at higher dosages (100mg daily).

*As for over and under the counter supplmentation and creating the best plan of action for maxmial male fertility without the need to come off and or wait for a full HPTA recovery

Carnitine - 2000mg Safety and efficacy of clomiphene citrate and L-carnitine in idiopathic male infertility: a comparative study - PubMed Note they have muddled the words before the dosing with clomid and carnitine
Vitamin E - 800iu *








Effect of vitamin E administered to men in infertile couples on sperm and assisted reproduction outcomes: a double-blind randomized study


To evaluate the influence on sperm parameters and in vitro fertilization (IVF) outcomes of the administration of 400 mg/day of vitamin E for 3 months …




www.sciencedirect.com




*Vitamin D - 5000iu *








The role of vitamin D in male fertility: A focus on the testis - PubMed


In the last decade, vitamin D has emerged as a pleiotropic molecule with a multitude of autocrine, paracrine and endocrine functions, mediated by classical genomic as well as non-classical non-genomic actions, on multiple target organs and systems. The expression of vitamin D receptor and...




pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov




*Vitamin C - 2000mg* Improvement in human semen quality after oral supplementation of vitamin C - PubMed
*Zinc - 25mg* Zinc is an Essential Element for Male Fertility: A Review of Zn Roles in Men’s Health, Germination, Sperm Quality, and Fertilization

*Proviron - 50mg *


https://www.bayer.com/sites/default/files/PROVIRON_EN_PI.pdf


*HCG - 1000iu 3x per week - *








Medical treatment of male infertility


The majority of male infertility is idiopathic. However, there are multiple known causes of male infertility, and some of these causes can be treated medically with high success rates. In cases of idiopathic or genetic causes of male infertility, medical ...




www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov




*HMG - 75iu 3x per week - *








Medical treatment of male infertility


The majority of male infertility is idiopathic. However, there are multiple known causes of male infertility, and some of these causes can be treated medically with high success rates. In cases of idiopathic or genetic causes of male infertility, medical ...




www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov




*(1000iu HCG on Monday, Wednesday and Friday
75iu HMG on Monday, Wednesday and Friday)

Avoid: 19nors, excessive alcohol consumption and smoking
Partake in: regular exercise, a healthy diet, plenty of sleep and remaining as stress free as possible.*

You can find endless little extra supplements but these will be your biggest returns on investment and are tackling each aspect of producing healthy sperm.

Remember that this can take time even for naturals so dont assume that just because you are running this protocol that you will be supercharged, you're not, you're merely 'optimized' for the circumstances you are in and you are still only one half of the equation, your partner should investigate and implement a host of life changes to also better your chances of succesful fertility but that information can be easily obtained elsewhere, this thread is aimed predominantly at the steroid user with the over the counter supplements also offering benefit to natural male's ferility success.


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## swole troll (Apr 15, 2015)

EDIT - I will be picking away at this a little more but wanted the clay on the table as my PC has been shitting the bed a lot lately and I lost about 50% of this write up last week due to it closing down whilst I was mid work so no doubt will have forgotten some of the things I wanted to add but I'll simply edit in the future as mentioned.


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## DarkKnight (Feb 3, 2021)

Good post. You should sticky this in the steroid section bro


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## swole troll (Apr 15, 2015)

DarkKnight said:


> Good post. You should sticky this in the steroid section bro


I've got the hub of my "it's not that difficult" threads stickied in the PED section but I do think many are missed in there so yeah I may break them down and sticky the most popular by request ones individually.


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## Micky Saddler 93 (Nov 25, 2020)

@swole troll have conceived previously mate - have a 2 year old daughter. Following that I have partaken in a fairly lengthy cycle mainly mast/test and included a dabble of 19-nor in Tren , came off the start of January and did a fairly hefty HCG dose for 3 weeks. 

Pulled bloods last month and LH was just in range at 1.7 and FSH slightly better at 3.6. Test levels were very low at 4.7nmol though. 

I am keeping up with health stack and daily vitamin regime - all of which include the above and more. 

Plan to run bloods again come June.

Any advice you can give? I have SERMS on hand but didn't utilise as felt to give it a try without any further therapy and give body 'time' to recover naturally.

What do you think?


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## swole troll (Apr 15, 2015)

Micky Saddler 93 said:


> @swole troll have conceived previously mate - have a 2 year old daughter. Following that I have partaken in a fairly lengthy cycle mainly mast/test and included a dabble of 19-nor in Tren , came off the start of January and did a fairly hefty HCG dose for 3 weeks.
> 
> Pulled bloods last month and LH was just in range at 1.7 and FSH slightly better at 3.6. Test levels were very low at 4.7nmol though.
> 
> ...


Get a full sperm test done and run the over the counter supplement section of what I suggested above.

If you start taking gonadotropin mimetics you're going to shut yourself down when you may very well already be producing sperm for free.

Same for SERMs, you're already on the road to recovery, I wouldn't start running SERMs at this stage unless your count is low and or your clinically low test levels havn't improved, although I'm willing to bet they will have by June.

3 and a bit months isn't a very lengthy amount of time to recover after 2 years of aggressive HPTA suppression.

After a full sperm test and hormonal screening (test and gonadotropins) in June, you can make a more informed and intelligent decision. 

If its truly unbearable to wait then yes my advice would be to first implement a low dose of clomiphene, 25mg daily and retesting LH and FSH, but assuming it isn't, if I were where you are at, I'd wait until June and keep trying for a baby until then before implementing any pharmacology.


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## Micky Saddler 93 (Nov 25, 2020)

swole troll said:


> Get a full sperm test done and run the over the counter supplement section of what I suggested above.
> 
> If you start taking gonadotropin mimetics you're going to shut yourself down when you may very well already be producing sperm for free.
> 
> ...


Appreciate it Swole thanks a lot for this.

Will feedback come June - stay well!


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## ThatsLife (Nov 26, 2018)

I'll be keeping an eye on this thread. 
I've been on prescribed TRT since December, with 1500IU HCG a week also. 

The plan with the missus is to just carry on as normal for this year in the hope she falls pregnant, and if no luck, we both start looking into other options next year.


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## swole troll (Apr 15, 2015)

ThatsLife said:


> I'll be keeping an eye on this thread.
> I've been on prescribed TRT since December, with 1500IU HCG a week also.
> 
> The plan with the missus is to just carry on as normal for this year in the hope she falls pregnant, and if no luck, we both start looking into other options next year.


Get a private full sperm test done for around £100 and you'll know whether or not you're 'wasting your time'.

This is assuming you want to conceive at the moment, as I said in the article the OP there isn't an on switch for your fertility, it's more of a slider and even once you are back producing the maximum quantity and quality you are able to, you can still easily be looking at up to 12 months to successfully conceive.

If you arn't in a rush then yes the typical layered practice is:
Try to conceive > implement hcg at 1000-3000iu weekly > add in 225iu of hmg weekly

Spending 3-6 months in each phase.

Please report back on your success, what you implemented and how long it took, as part of the problem of getting a good scope on success is many seek advice, implement it, achieve success and then never report back.


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## swole troll (Apr 15, 2015)

General success rate for long term HPTA suppression and fertility in men: 



Exogenous testosterone: a preventable cause of male infertility - Crosnoe - Translational Andrology and Urology


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## ThatsLife (Nov 26, 2018)

swole troll said:


> Get a private full sperm test done for around £100 and you'll know whether or not you're 'wasting your time'.
> 
> This is assuming you want to conceive at the moment, as I said in the article the OP there isn't an on switch for your fertility, it's more of a slider and even once you are back producing the maximum quantity and quality you are able to, you can still easily be looking at up to 12 months to successfully conceive.
> 
> ...


I'll definately report back in this thread and my TRT thread I have going. 

I did do a my swim-count home test last year, before I started on TRT. 
Can't remember the exact count but it was bordering on low/medium, so that gives me some hope that Im least producing something (or at least I was).


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## swole troll (Apr 15, 2015)

Just some further info to add that I forgot to put into the OP (that I previously wrote out and deleted in it's entirety and had to rewrite!) 

HCG in most instances is able to maintain fertility if started and ran concurrently with the duration of your anabolic use even at modest doses (1000-1500iu split 2-3x weekly).

Therefore if previously lost fertility is fully recovered with one of the protocols above, in most cases you are then able to revert back and maintain this fertility with an HCG maintenance protocol.

As always, you will of course need a full panel to confirm each step of the way (androgen induced infertility, recovery of fertility through one of the above protocols, HCG retained fertility).


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## funnerno1 (Apr 13, 2015)

swole troll said:


> General success rate for long term HPTA suppression and fertility in men:
> 
> 
> 
> Exogenous testosterone: a preventable cause of male infertility - Crosnoe - Translational Andrology and Urology


Can I ask why you recommend 1000 IU 3x a week when they recommend 500 IU EOD (3x a week)?


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## swole troll (Apr 15, 2015)

funnerno1 said:


> Can I ask why you recommend 1000 IU 3x a week when they recommend 500 IU EOD (3x a week)?


3000iu per week is the average dosing for fertility recovery amongst study groups with it ranging anywhere from 500iu 3x per week up to 1500iu 3x per week and even higher in the various literature that I've seen.

for example - Successful fertility treatment with gonadotrophin therapy for male hypogonadotrophic hypogonadism

I think the higher end is unnecessary for the time most with less responsive testicles will require with concurrent hmg therapy.

If you were on some sort of time restraint then yes you could go higher along with a higher dose of hmg, which I've seen up to 225iu multiple times per week but this of course gets costly and irrelevant of how much sperm and the quality of which you are producing you are only one half of the equation along with an element of 'luck' for want of a better term

So having a good middle ground dose that almost anyone considering having a child can afford for prolonged periods of time (6-12 months) seems the best blanket answer to give and of all I've personally helped prior to making this thread, we've used a similar approach to success in all cases that got back to me (no one has reported back failure, only success or no reply)

But as with any of these guide like threads I put out, it's free and intended for broad outreach, I don't have the time or will to do case by case guidance for everyone so instead opt for a relatively one size fits all approach, safe bet guidelines to work with if you will.


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## swole troll (Apr 15, 2015)

Combination of tamoxifen with testosterone replacement therapy showing potential for male fertility retention 









More attention should be paid to the treatment of male infertility with drugs—testosterone: to use it or not?


Testosterone replacement is strictly contraindicated for the treatment of male infertility’ was the advanced view from the ‘2013 European Association of Urology (EAU) guidelines on male infertility’, and this view brings extensive ...




www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov


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## Micky Saddler 93 (Nov 25, 2020)

swole troll said:


> Get a full sperm test done and run the over the counter supplement section of what I suggested above.
> 
> If you start taking gonadotropin mimetics you're going to shut yourself down when you may very well already be producing sperm for free.
> 
> ...












thanks @swole troll - most recent bloods attached above - for anyone interested this was with HCG only following a 3 weeks gap from last pin and no serms.

Rough ride but happy with these numbers.
any thoughts would be welcome


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## swole troll (Apr 15, 2015)

I've had a few DMs lately on the ovulation window and timing, some of which I've ignored or referred to this thread to ask the question, although no one has

So to clear things up here's a basic graph










The first day of your partners period is day one, broadly speaking around days 9-16 is when she will be at her most fertile.

For the days leading up to the end of her period you want to refrain from ejaculating and then aim to have sex every other day to daily during this window and limit ejaculation to sex only.

Any further questions post them to this thread as fertility concerns or advice is one of the most common DMs I get after Boom's popular thread on the topic.

This is why I make these general guidance threads and I'd rather answer on topic FAQs within them.


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## Baby arm (Jul 28, 2017)

@swole troll is there much benefit with women taking clomid when trying?


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## swole troll (Apr 15, 2015)

Baby arm said:


> @swole troll is there much benefit with women taking clomid when trying?


Yes there is when taken shortly into their cycle however you do considerably increase the chances of having twins, plus the chances of the child(ren) being female, which is already an increased likelihood for AAS users.


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## DarkKnight (Feb 3, 2021)

swole troll said:


> Yes there is when taken shortly into their cycle however you do considerably increase the chances of having twins, plus the chances of the child(ren) *being female, which is already an increased likelihood for AAS users.*


Why is that exactly?

And how does clomid affect the gender with women taking it?


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## swole troll (Apr 15, 2015)

DarkKnight said:


> Why is that exactly?
> 
> And how does clomid affect the gender with women taking it?


As far as I'm aware this has hypothesis only.

I've heard a few theories but nothing concrete or backed with any papers.

You can see it anecdotally as well.
Most bodybuilders / steroid users tend to have girls.


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## Baby arm (Jul 28, 2017)

swole troll said:


> Yes there is when taken shortly into their cycle however you do considerably increase the chances of having twins, plus the chances of the child(ren) being female, which is already an increased likelihood for AAS users.


Is that the same for men taking it when trying aswell?


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## swole troll (Apr 15, 2015)

Baby arm said:


> Is that the same for men taking it when trying aswell?


No it won't increase the likelihood of having twins.

IVF will increase though if forced to take that route.


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## Imperitive.Intel (10 mo ago)

What about this peptide thing called triptorelin? Heard it bounces back men with hypogonadism like nothing else.


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## swole troll (Apr 15, 2015)

Imperitive.Intel said:


> What about this peptide thing called triptorelin? Heard it bounces back men with hypogonadism like nothing else.


I've heard the same, but I've ever seen any study to back this, never seen any anecdotal feed back and this is the same peptide used in high doses to chemically castrate.


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