# Pure scum



## Ken Hutchinson (May 29, 2009)

What is happening to this country when an old boy gets attacked in broad day light by a gang of scum

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2218079/Wolverhampton-Bus-Station-Sickening-moment-pensioner-karate-kicked-thug-Smurf-T-shirt.html


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## Guest (Oct 16, 2012)

ffs, that thug needs a serious beating. With a sledgehammer.


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## Monkey skeleton (Jul 8, 2012)

Public floggings would sort t##ts like that out!

If I was rich, every time I saw something like this I'd love to post rewards to whoever f##ked up the perpetrators!


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## Scottek (Sep 10, 2012)

This boils ma blood they should bring back te death sentence for fuds like this


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## F.M.J (Mar 23, 2009)

There must have been some kind of altercation as they passed through the door but still, kicking down an old man and jumping on him? FFS. Cowards. The man must have hurt their feelings


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## Dai Jones (Dec 1, 2009)

Not being racist but they seem to be all black aswell, gang scum with nothing else to do but think they are the hard by taking out a old man


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## Gym-pig (Jun 25, 2008)

I think the issue here is how few people would have helped or " seen anything" had the attack carried on .

Consequences stop actions .

If King smurf knew everyone in the centre would have turned on him he wouldnt have done it . However in this day and age its rare to meet the good samaritan

Cowardly act


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## Gorgeous_George (Apr 22, 2012)

Dai Jones said:


> Not being racist but they seem to be all black aswell, gang scum with nothing else to do but think they are the hard by taking out a old man


its not racist to point out there all black lol.

racist attacks on whites are happening everyday, usually involving 50 on 1. just they keep it out of the public eye


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## Ken Hutchinson (May 29, 2009)

Gym-pig said:


> I think the issue here is how few people would have helped or " seen anything" had the attack carried on .
> 
> Consequences stop actions .
> 
> ...


If you help out you would probably end up getting stabbed, because scum like this always carry a blade


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## Agent David (Dec 20, 2011)

I'd like to think if i was around at the time i'd have stepped in to help, but the problem is that either you end up getting stabbed by the muppets, or you end up getting nicked by the cops when the idiot makes a complaint against you.


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## Dai Jones (Dec 1, 2009)

Ken Hutchinson said:


> If you help out you would probably end up getting stabbed, because scum like this always carry a blade





Agent David said:


> I'd like to think if i was around at the time i'd have stepped in to help, but the problem is that either you end up getting stabbed by the muppets, or you end up getting nicked by the cops when the idiot makes a complaint against you.


good point


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## Gorgeous_George (Apr 22, 2012)

Agent David said:


> I'd like to think if i was around at the time i'd have stepped in to help, but the problem is that either you end up getting stabbed by the muppets, or you end up getting nicked by the cops when the idiot makes a complaint against you.


spot on m8, had personal experience with this even if ur by urself and against 15plus group, if ur white and there not just walk away because the justice system will always go against u


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## Ben_Dover (Apr 12, 2012)

Fcuking scumbags, boils my blood... they need a good old fashion "american history X" curb biting, fcuking spineless cnuts !!!


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## -AC- (Jul 9, 2011)

Is it wrong that i had a pre-conceived idea of what they would look like before i saw the pictures? I was correct in my prejudiced assumptions.


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## Gorgeous_George (Apr 22, 2012)

Ben_Dover said:


> Fcuking scumbags, boils my blood... they need a good old fashion "american history X" curb biting, fcuking spineless cnuts !!!


x2


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## Guest (Oct 16, 2012)

Muscular build lmao, I've had steaks bigger then them both put together!

I dare say I'd of stepped in if there was only 2 of them, especially as this guy could well have fought in the war to protect my grandparents/parents lives.

On the flip side though they are many racist pensioners out there and who's to say he didn't Paul them a passing remark?

Still doesn't condone there actions the muggy little pr1cks.


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## Gorgeous_George (Apr 22, 2012)

Spawn of Haney said:


> Muscular build lmao, I've had steaks bigger then them both put together!
> 
> I dare say I'd of stepped in if there was only 2 of them, especially as this guy could well have fought in the war to protect my grandparents/parents lives.
> 
> ...


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## latblaster (Oct 26, 2013)

Fvcking [email protected] scum!


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## Guest (Oct 16, 2012)

should be paraded in front of the public. Straight to the gallows and hung.


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## cudsyaj (Jul 5, 2011)

-AC- said:


> Is it wrong that i had a pre-conceived idea of what they would look like before i saw the pictures? I was correct in my prejudiced assumptions.


Not really, I did too...


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## lukeee (Aug 17, 2009)

No no no.. we cant go round dishing out pain as punishment, thats torture apparently and we are better than that  what they need is a cuddle and a spell in prison


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## Sc4mp0 (Jun 17, 2012)

lukeee said:


> No no no.. we cant go round dishing out pain as punishment, thats torture apparently and we are better than that  what they need is a cuddle and a spell in prison


They need a struggle cuddle in prison.


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## Sharpiedj (Oct 24, 2011)

Pussy's! winds me up the fact nobody slapped them, gang of 5 guys or not if i seen them do that to an old man i would have said something.

Nothing but cowards. Wonder what they would have done or felt if that was there granddad ?


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## lukeee (Aug 17, 2009)

Sc4mp0 said:


> They need a struggle cuddle in prison.


Ha, i like that!

Careful though mate, i got called an idiot on here for wanting a bit of proper punishment dished out..

Broke my heart it did :crying:


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## Coop (Sep 8, 2007)

Plenty of scum bags out there, white aswell as black. I would be interested to know why they did it, was it because they were just scumbags or is there something we don't know about the old fella.


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## Raga91 (Aug 7, 2012)

That is just disgusting, what was going through there head?

You have to be careful what you do these days few years back i got done for something that was in self defense, some black youths think they are unstoppable, it is not only in black youths also in every other white,asian etc hopefully these guys do get caught i hope they get a prison sentence the old man does not deserve getting kicked racist or not he is old and cant defend him self.


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## empzb (Jan 8, 2006)

My bets are, drunk old boy said something racist, (even if he didn't that will be blamed). Guys thought they would teach him a lesson as they are ball less tear aways, can't get over no one jumping in though in a busy place like that. Even if they did have a blade, chances of them using it if there are loads of people around are minimal, but then again I guess have a go heros these days are few and far between. Chances are this old boy did some form of service or fighting in this country that these ****s are destroying from the inside out like cancer.


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## Sharpiedj (Oct 24, 2011)

empzb said:


> My bets are, drunk old boy said something racist, (even if he didn't that will be blamed). Guys thought they would teach him a lesson as they are ball less tear aways, can't get over no one jumping in though in a busy place like that. Even if they did have a blade, chances of them using it if there are loads of people around are minimal, but then again I guess have a go heros these days are few and far between. Chances are this old boy did some form of service or fighting in this country that these ****s are destroying from the inside out like cancer.


Exactly my thoughts why do the public choose to ignore stuff when this happens? 30 years ago they would have got chinned for this !

I have stuck up for people who are getting attacked/robbed before & continue to do so, brave or stupid i see it as a role we all should play in society.


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## Fit4life (Sep 16, 2011)

Personally I couldnt stand by I would wade in and kick the crap out of them,

kaza


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## Sc4mp0 (Jun 17, 2012)

lukeee said:


> Ha, i like that!
> 
> Careful though mate, i got called an idiot on here for wanting a bit of proper punishment dished out..
> 
> Broke my heart it did :crying:


Hahaha, you're joking right? Oh dear oh dear, I thought it was the elderly lady next door that cared abour human rights.


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## Athenian (Sep 19, 2012)

People who commit violence like this aren't well adjusted and probably come from violent backgrounds/upbringings themselves. Beating them wouldn't have ANY effect on stopping these kinds of crimes from happening. If there was any chance of that then the US would have the lowest murder rate in the developed world as it has the highest instances of the death penalty being applied, yet they have the highest...

Ignoring this only detracts from the real cause of crime and how to really deal with it in terms of punishment. All you people asking for beatings and infliction of pain are just angry and want to get even, but thankfully revenge isn't part of the legal system. You have NO regard for justice for these victims and quite frankly it's sickening to hear you pretend to care about them.


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## Ackee&amp;Saltfish (Mar 18, 2011)

Gorgeous_George said:


> its not racist to point out there all black lol.
> 
> racist attacks on whites are happening everyday, *usually involving 50 on 1. just they keep it out of the public eye*





Gorgeous_George said:


> spot on m8, had personal experience with this even if ur by urself and against 15plus group, if ur white and there not just walk away because the *justice system will always go against u*


I really like you George but when you come out with this old chestnut b*llocks i just cant take you seriously man are you for real man :laugh:

and for the record race does not come into it anyone who acts in such a way black white green yellow clearly has issues that need to be dealt with..


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## guvnor82 (Oct 23, 2011)

Iv got a m8 who stopped a gang of youth beating an old boy up gotta broken leg for his troubles after they all turned on him.


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## Sc4mp0 (Jun 17, 2012)

Athenian said:


> People who commit violence like this aren't well adjusted and probably come from violent backgrounds/upbringings themselves. Beating them wouldn't have ANY effect on stopping these kinds of crimes from happening. If there was any chance of that then the US would have the lowest murder rate in the developed world as it has the highest instances of the death penalty being applied, yet they have the highest...
> 
> Ignoring this only detracts from the real cause of crime and how to really deal with it in terms of punishment. All you people asking for beatings and infliction of pain are just angry and want to get even, but thankfully revenge isn't part of the legal system. You have NO regard for justice for these victims and quite frankly it's sickening to hear you pretend to care about them.


I'm not angry at all,far from it. And you are right,I'm not that bothered about the old man and I never said I was,but what I am bothered about are young people getting away with things,taking more and more liberties everyday because nobody will do about it and then next time I go to a shop a group of them pull a knife on me. It's happened before but 4 14year olds didnt worry me ,especially as just out of luck a group of my mates just came out of the supermarket and there was about 8 22 year olds,5 of us quite strong lads.

I think the death penalty should be brought back as well,would help with many a things,especially cleansing prisons and freeing up space for more criminals.


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## BoxerJay (Jan 11, 2011)

What the **** is going on? Seriously cannot stand scumbags like that, saying that as much as it would hurt me not to, I wouldn't get involved with that lot, I like to think I would in most cases but when there is that many of them I risk being stomped to death. Pack mentality, hope they get what's coming to them.


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## digitalis (Sep 13, 2011)

Ackee&Saltfish said:


> I really like you George but when you come out with this old chestnut b*llocks i just cant take you seriously man are you for real man :laugh:
> 
> and for the record race does not come into it anyone who acts in such a way black white green yellow clearly has issues that need to be dealt with..


Race attacks happen to white people mate, sorry to burst your bubble cos' they happen a lot.

I don't know whether this was racially based or not (the media would be loathe to say if it was anyway) but your reaction is not helping race relations in the UK at all i.e. denying that white people are victims of racist attacks more than any other race in the UK, which they most definitely are, just like sex grooming by gangs of pakistani paedophiles.


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## Socius (Jul 29, 2012)

Never seen anything like that, scumbags.


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## Suprakill4 (Jul 11, 2008)

fcuking terrible. WTF makes these idiots think stuff like this is acceptable.


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## BoxerJay (Jan 11, 2011)

Suprakill4 said:


> fcuking terrible. WTF makes these idiots think stuff like this is acceptable.


The truly disgusting thing is they probably went back to where ever it is they "live" and had a great laugh about it, he certainly got "+5 street cred" for that move.

I highly doubt he will see jail time when they find him, he'll say he "Racially abused us" and then his soliciter will tell of how "He acted out of character, he's from a broken home, incarcerating him will just make this poor childs life harder"

We're too soft, it will be our un-doing some day, just because the people running the place aren't exposed to any of this and can't comprehend what it's like living with this sort of thing and worse daily.


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## Suprakill4 (Jul 11, 2008)

They dont even deserve any educating on whats acceptable. Need a bullet, there is zero hope for these cvnts. Itll be a gun next and a killing for initiation into the gang.


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## Ackee&amp;Saltfish (Mar 18, 2011)

digitalis said:


> Race attacks happen to white people mate, sorry to burst your bubble cos' they happen a lot.
> 
> I don't know whether this was racially based or not (the media would be loathe to say if it was anyway) but your reaction is not helping race relations in the UK at all i.e. denying that white people are victims of racist attacks more than any other race in the UK, which they most definitely are, just like sex grooming by gangs of pakistani paedophiles.


Tell me how "my reaction is not helping race relations in the uk" i dont ever recall denying that white people are also victims of race attacks

I think you should go back and read my post then re-read it again just to clarify what i was getting at..smh


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## Sc4mp0 (Jun 17, 2012)

digitalis said:


> Race attacks happen to white people mate, sorry to burst your bubble cos' they happen a lot.
> 
> I don't know whether this was racially based or not (the media would be loathe to say if it was anyway) but your reaction is not helping race relations in the UK at all i.e. denying that white people are victims of racist attacks more than any other race in the UK, which they most definitely are, just like sex grooming by gangs of pakistani paedophiles.


It was reported in The Daily Mail,what will be reported will be something along the lines of this discussion between the two:

Old guy - excuse me young man,could you please tell me which bus leaves from platform 3?

Young lad - wat u iz sayin whitie,i'll shank you.

Old man- oh dear,i didn't mean to be rude young man,im ever so sorry

Youbg lad - fvck you,you ******. I Iz gonna karate kick you in the back for being white.

Or something along those lines,no matter what REALLY happened or was said.


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## digitalis (Sep 13, 2011)

Ackee&Saltfish said:


> Tell me how "my reaction is not helping race relations in the uk" i dont ever recall denying that white people are also victims of race attacks
> 
> I think you should go back and read my post then re-read it again just to clarify what i was getting at..smh


Because you stated



> but when you come out with this old chestnut b*llocks i just cant take you seriously man are you for real man


You are implying that it is a completely ridiculous assertion that the motive behind this attack was at least part due to the victim being white. Which, is not helpful to ongoing race relations in the UK as white people are at least as much at risk from racist attack as non-whites, due to a politicised legal system, biased media and schooling system.

Why are you denying it, you have typed it for all to see. The fact is, this COULD have been a racist attack we don't know. It is not that ridiculous a supposition, and you know it.

What we DO KNOW though is if the victim had been an elderly black man and the gang white, there would be complete uproar about "racism."


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## Athenian (Sep 19, 2012)

Sc4mp0 said:


> I'm not angry at all,far from it.


Yes you are, and I so am I. I just choose to redirect my anger and turn into something more constructive. Feeling helpless makes everyone forego their better judgement, but it's become way too easy for people to simply get mad rather than try to make a difference.



Sc4mp0 said:


> And you are right,I'm not that bothered about the old man and I never said I was,but what I am bothered about are young people getting away with things,taking more and more liberties everyday because nobody will do about it and then next time I go to a shop a group of them pull a knife on me. It's happened before but 4 14year olds didnt worry me ,especially as just out of luck a group of my mates just came out of the supermarket and there was about 8 22 year olds,5 of us quite strong lads.


It's this 'selfish' attitude that really gets to me about people. You don't care about the victims of crime, you 're just ****ed that it could possibly happen to you as well. I'm sorry but that sort of righteous indignation is detrimental to society as a whole. e'd be better of focusing that energy on improving the care for victims of crime and ensuring harsher prison sentences for offenders.

I agree that criminals get off far too easy today, but beating and killing them isn't going to prevent others from taking their place the very next day if we don't tackle the causes of this behaviour. All it does is make us feel vindicated in taking out our frustrations on others over the failures of our society.

There are ways you can improve the situation. Become more politically active. Gather support from your fellow constituents and ask for your local MP to introduce bills that have higher prison sentences. Better someone is behind bars for 30 years where he can't hurt more people rather than than beating him up for 10 and then he comes out angrier and meaner than ever.



Sc4mp0 said:


> I think the death penalty should be brought back as well,would help with many a things,especially cleansing prisons and freeing up space for more criminals.


Again, if this were true even in the slightest, the US would be the safest country on the planet, yet it isn't, those crazy [email protected] kill each other over any and every reason conceivable and the death penalty has 0 effect on someone's commision of murder, or any other crime that can get them sentenced to death.

As for cleaning up prisons, that's just the easy and lazy way out. Can't curb crime? Can't prevent it? Can't rehabilitate people? Fine, just start killing them all off. Why bother trying to create a better society were fewer crimes are commited and and we don't need to jail people? Oh yeah, because that takes planning and effort... You 're right, much simpler to just kill people.


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## alan1971 (Mar 30, 2012)

Athenian said:


> You 're right, much simpler to just kill people.


would be cheaper for the tax payer, so im all for it. :lol:


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## Ackee&amp;Saltfish (Mar 18, 2011)

digitalis said:


> Because you stated
> 
> You are implying that it is a completely ridiculous assertion that the motive behind this attack was at least part due to the victim being white. Which, is not helpful to ongoing race relations in the UK as white people are at least as much at risk from racist attack as non-whites, due to a politicised legal system, biased media and schooling system.
> 
> ...


if you go back and have a look you'll see the highlighted parts in his post, he implied anyone whose not white that commits a crime gets an easier ride, also people getting attacked 50 to 1? come on man dont try make me into something im not, im guessing you also missed the end of my post where i stated race was irrelevant when it comes to crime?

anyways i'll let you carry with your agenda :laugh:


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## rich-k- (Sep 18, 2012)

I Bet they went off to all there gay bum little pussy gaylord home boys and bragged about bootin the old geezer over, id love to brag about smashin the little tossers head off the floor dirty spinless pricks, deserve torchure i say!

And all the talk about racism etc without sounding bad, but the way society seems if a white man is attacked wether it be by a black, asian etc its not seen in the media eyes as racist, but if a white man attacks a coloured man, its seen as racist. Where as in reality certain parts of manchester,birmingham etc you walk down certain streets and can be attacked if your white, but thats just the way it is.


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## kingdale (Nov 2, 2010)

in before this is closed before it turns into a race row.


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## guvnor82 (Oct 23, 2011)

3 pages and already a race war...

Gotta love uk-m so many level headed people


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## Gorgeous_George (Apr 22, 2012)

digitalis said:


> What we DO KNOW though is if the victim had been an elderly black man and the gang white, there would be complete uproar about "racism."


this.

i could go on one here but iv already been banned twice lol

@Ackee&Saltfish m8 i live in the real world, it may sound stupid to some but this country is so pc its almost a crime to be white nowadays.

mind u the last time the law went against a black guy the whole of london was a war zone..


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## Gorgeous_George (Apr 22, 2012)

50% of all threads i post in turn into race rows, these are facts 

its kwl tho im a half black half asian jew, practicing islam living in the uk and member of the uaf


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## Ackee&amp;Saltfish (Mar 18, 2011)

Gorgeous_George said:


> this.
> 
> i could go on one here but iv already been banned twice lol
> 
> ...


I think you will find the majority of the pc brigade are middle class caucasian do gooders who think calling a black person "coloured" and not flying the st georges cross will help "race relations"..and to say anyone whose not white gets a get out of jail card because of their race is nonsense..

Can someone remind me who sets these laws that blacks seem to be immune to?


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## Gorgeous_George (Apr 22, 2012)

Ackee&Saltfish said:


> I think you will find the majority of the pc brigade are middle class caucasians but to say anyone whose not white gets a get out of jail card because of their race is nonsense..
> 
> Can someone remind me who sets these laws that blacks seem to be immune to?


well yeah obv, dont take it as a personal attack lol, obv its the government who makes the rules and enforces them

and i wasnt just talking about black ppl only


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## Ackee&amp;Saltfish (Mar 18, 2011)

Gorgeous_George said:


> well yeah obv, dont take it as a personal attack lol, obv its the government who makes the rules and enforces them
> 
> and i wasnt just talking about black ppl only


Come on man this aint personal at all im just using black as an example because i is black..i still think its a load of b*llocks when i hear the term "one rule for us and a different for the rest of em"

Crime is a crime and race is irrelevant and i actually believe the justice system lets all the f*ckwits get an easy ride whatever the race


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## Gorgeous_George (Apr 22, 2012)

Ackee&Saltfish said:


> Come on man this aint personal at all im just using black as an example because i is black..


lool i love u really


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## Ackee&amp;Saltfish (Mar 18, 2011)

Gorgeous_George said:


> lool i love u really


Lol I dont think you are uninformed as you come across i actually see you as a black yout from croydon....who couldnt hack it and moved out to the sticks :whistling:


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## Gorgeous_George (Apr 22, 2012)

Ackee&Saltfish said:


> Lol I dont think you are uninformed as you come across i actually see you as a black yout from croydon....who couldnt hack it and moved out to the sticks :whistling:


wot blud, u lookin to get shanked fam?


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## onthebuild (Sep 3, 2011)

Things like this make me think Enoch Powells 'rivers of blood' speech as spot on.

Immigration seems to be a massive problem atm, very prevalent in the news at the moment. It could be a fantastic thing, but scrotes like this undermine the whole idea behind multicultural Britain, and imo the only solution is that they need a fvcking bullet.



> "The cloud no bigger than a man's hand, that can so rapidly overcast the sky, has been visible recently in Wolverhampton and has shown signs of spreading quickly...As I look ahead, I am filled with foreboding; like the Roman, I seem to see "the River Tiber foaming with much blood."
> 
> That tragic and intractable phenomenon which we watch with horror on the other side of the Atlantic but which there is interwoven with the history and existence of the States itself, *is coming upon us here by our own volition and our own neglect*."


We as a country are to blame for the huge spiralling amount of immigrants in this country. I have nothing against the majority of them. But its times we learned the cvnts who think its ok to migrate here and then commit violent acts or abuse the system, need to be kicked out. Similarly, if they have children who are 'british born', yet commit violent crimes, they should be held responsible.

I will be responsible for my children from the day they are born to the day they/I die. If they were to ever behave like the mindless, violent thugs we hear about, I would regard myself as a failure, as a parent.


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## IGotTekkers (Jun 6, 2012)

Scottek said:


> This boils ma blood they should bring back te death sentence for fuds like this


Yeah because killing some dickhead that has yet to grow up is a lot more moral than beating somebody up. Views like that **** me right off.


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## Conscript (Sep 5, 2010)

Most of the PC Brigade do-gooders are a product of the sublime drive for political dominance via socialism, the party of anti-everything and they want to control you from cradle to the grave, like agreeable wimps fighting for their own demise! Divide and conquer...self interest prevails, wonder why you can never get a straight answer from a politician type person? - because bullsh1t baffles brains. you see, race/religion/poverty, these are lower/working class "Politics", those whom have the wealth, the networks and the power to control (and enjoy it) have little concern for such trivial things, money and power is where it's at  We are in a golden age of self-interest, underhanded insidiousness, this is reflected in the caliber and nature of people circulating through Parliament!


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## Scottek (Sep 10, 2012)

IGotTekkers said:


> Yeah because killing some dickhead that has yet to grow up is a lot more moral than beating somebody up. Views like that **** me right off.


Right but what might just be a beating could ruin that persons life , if criminals got a real punishment then mabe these scumbags would learn as almost every weekend now where I live you here of a gang battering or killing someone and it's only getting worse an sentences are only getting less


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## IGotTekkers (Jun 6, 2012)

Scottek said:


> Right but what might just be a beating could ruin that persons life , if criminals got a real punishment then mabe these scumbags would learn as almost every weekend now where I live you here of a gang battering or killing someone and it's only getting worse an sentences are only getting less


Crime has not got any worse at all. Common misconception. The government and media give the appearance of a rising crime rate but this is because of new laws being made constantly, better investigative techniques, better media coverage, rape, murder and violence has been rife in this country since day 1. Go back a few hundred years and twas normal to kill your own family to jump the inheritence queue.

And death penalty isn't a punishment. It's only punishing the family of the convicted. Longer sentences and death works no better as a punishment nor a deterrant than the slaps on the wrists we give here, and you only have to look at the usa to see that.


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## Ashcrapper (Jul 3, 2008)

Athenian said:


> People who commit violence like this aren't well adjusted and probably come from violent backgrounds/upbringings themselves. Beating them wouldn't have ANY effect on stopping these kinds of crimes from happening. If there was any chance of that then the US would have the lowest murder rate in the developed world as it has the highest instances of the death penalty being applied, yet they have the highest...
> 
> Ignoring this only detracts from the real cause of crime and how to really deal with it in terms of punishment. All you people asking for beatings and infliction of pain are just angry and want to get even, but thankfully revenge isn't part of the legal system. You have NO regard for justice for these victims and quite frankly it's sickening to hear you pretend to care about them.


sorry but who the **** are you to say who does and doesnt care about the victim here? forgive me if im wrong but you actually havent got a clue what ANYONE in this thread is thinking, you are making assumptions.


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## Milky (Nov 30, 2008)

Athenian said:


> Yes you are, and I so am I. I just choose to redirect my anger and turn into something more constructive. Feeling helpless makes everyone forego their better judgement, but it's become way too easy for people to simply get mad rather than try to make a difference.
> 
> It's this 'selfish' attitude that really gets to me about people. You don't care about the victims of crime, you 're just ****ed that it could possibly happen to you as well. I'm sorry but that sort of righteous indignation is detrimental to society as a whole. e'd be better of focusing that energy on improving the care for victims of crime and ensuring harsher prison sentences for offenders.
> 
> ...


Your quite a patronising individual arent you really.

Just because you choose to write a full essay every time you answer a post doesnt make you

A ; more intelligent

B ; Right.

Get over yourself mate and stop thinking your some kind of authority of what people should feel and think.


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## Ashcrapper (Jul 3, 2008)

Milky said:


> Your quite a patronising individual arent you really.
> 
> Just because you choose to write a full essay every time you answer a post doesnt make you
> 
> ...


nicely put


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## Athenian (Sep 19, 2012)

Ashcrapper said:


> sorry but who the **** are you to say who does and doesnt care about the victim here? forgive me if im wrong but you actually havent got a clue what ANYONE in this thread is thinking, you are making assumptions.


Actions speak louder than words mate. People who trully do give a crap about victims are far more concerned with helping them and preventing others from suffering the same fate rather than going off on grandstanding rants about inflicting pointless harm on the perpetrators.

Not that people need my approval, but they will definitely have it when they get off their computers and start helping people. How many people here volunteer or donate to victims support groups? Those are the ones I will take seriously, not guys running their mouths off on a chat board.


----------



## Milky (Nov 30, 2008)

Athenian said:


> Actions speak louder than words mate. People who trully do give a crap about victims are far more concerned with helping them and preventing others from suffering the same fate rather than going off on grandstanding rants about inflicting pointless harm on the perpetrators.
> 
> Not that people need my approval, but they will definitely have it when they get off their computers and start helping people. How many people here volunteer or donate to victims support groups? Those are the ones I will take seriously, not guys running their mouths off on a chat board.


Me and quite a few others on here helped a member out who was down on his look, provided him with a bed, bedding, cooker, fridge, food and money.

Therefore do that make us eligible for your approval ?


----------



## Athenian (Sep 19, 2012)

Milky said:


> Your quite a patronising individual arent you really.
> 
> Just because you choose to write a full essay every time you answer a post doesnt make you
> 
> ...


You 're right, next time I'll dumb it down to get in line with all the mindless rants about killing, raping and beating criminals.

It doens't suprpise me in the least that a dissenting opinion is charcaterised as offensive or smug when the track record in this thread so far shows an overwhelming support for majority rule over any and all personal rights of exrpession of ideas.

Damn it, there I go again, articulating and argumenting all over the place... shame on me.


----------



## Ashcrapper (Jul 3, 2008)

Athenian said:


> Actions speak louder than words mate. People who trully do give a crap about victims are far more concerned with helping them and preventing others from suffering the same fate rather than going off on grandstanding rants about inflicting pointless harm on the perpetrators.
> 
> Not that people need my approval, but they will definitely have it when they get off their computers and start helping people. How many people here volunteer or donate to victims support groups? Those are the ones I will take seriously, not guys running their mouths off on a chat board.


I helped my mum foster children from the age of 15 till I was 27. Looked after babies taken from smackheads, kids with learning difficulties amongst other things. I was also brought up to always respect elders and that generation so I still would like to see those ****s take a good kicking. How does that register on your moral scale?


----------



## Athenian (Sep 19, 2012)

Milky said:


> Me and quite a few others on here helped a member out who was down on his look, provided him with a bed, bedding, cooker, fridge, food and money.
> 
> Therefore do that make us eligible for your approval ?


Charity is a good thing, good on you, but hardly what I was talking about in this particular instance.


----------



## Milky (Nov 30, 2008)

Athenian said:


> You 're right, next time I'll dumb it down to get in line with all the mindless rants about killing, raping and beating criminals.
> 
> It doens't suprpise me in the least that a dissenting opinion is charcaterised as offensive or smug when the track record in this thread so far shows an overwhelming support for majority rule over any and all personal rights of exrpession of ideas.
> 
> Damn it, there I go again, articulating and argumenting all over the place... shame on me.


Perhaps your on the wrong forum.

" Articulating " you really are up your own ar*e arent you.

Do you think your more intelligent than most members on here or something ?

So people have a mindless rant on a forum, so what ?

You come along like Stephen fu*king Hawkins and want to belittle them and take away that right..........who do you think you are, seriously.


----------



## Athenian (Sep 19, 2012)

Ashcrapper said:


> I helped my mum foster children from the age of 15 till I was 27. Looked after babies taken from smackheads, kids with learning difficulties amongst other things. I was also brought up to always respect elders and that generation so I still would like to see those ****s take a good kicking. How does that register on your moral scale?


Another fine tale of personal heroics... anyone else on this board who's been to Africa and helped nurse war orphans? It's open season on the bullsh!t list it seems.


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## Milky (Nov 30, 2008)

Ashcrapper said:


> I helped my mum foster children from the age of 15 till I was 27. Looked after babies taken from smackheads, kids with learning difficulties amongst other things. I was also brought up to always respect elders and that generation so I still would like to see those ****s take a good kicking. How does that register on your moral scale?


You do articulate very well mate, l only articulate trucks TBH.


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## Guest (Oct 18, 2012)

You obviously dont live in the real world athenian, im sorry m8. These kids dont care one bit about the law, because they know its flaws.

What will happen to them once they are caught? Asbo and maybe some community service? Give me a break!

If they come from a rough upbringing or not they still know right from wrong! Giving their behaviour an excuse is beyond ridicules! A massive part of why this country is failing with all these people sat in their ivory castles looking down and giving their uneducated opinions on the youth of today.

Send them down to Longsight, Cheetham Hill, Broughton, Moss Side for a day and see if talking / trying to educate them actually works.. its all nonsense!


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## Milky (Nov 30, 2008)

Athenian said:


> Another fine tale of personal heroics... anyone else on this board who's been to Africa and helped nurse war orphans? It's open season on the bullsh!t list it seems.


So now we are telling lies then ?


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## Athenian (Sep 19, 2012)

Milky said:


> Perhaps your on the wrong forum.
> 
> " Articulating " you really are up your own ar*e arent you.
> 
> ...


The irnoy in that statement is so thick I'm surprised you haven't choked on it. It would appear dear fellow, that it is I infact that's getting the harsher treatment for expressing MY views rather than the other way around. Effectively what you 're saying is I should shut the [email protected] up because I don't share your opinion. Wonderful...


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## Ashcrapper (Jul 3, 2008)

Athenian said:


> Another fine tale of personal heroics... anyone else on this board who's been to Africa and helped nurse war orphans? It's open season on the bullsh!t list it seems.


aww. you ask how many people have helped others and it just so happens I have pissing over your little argument so you resort to saying im a liar. lovely articulating you condescending self important little pr**k.


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## Milky (Nov 30, 2008)

Athenian said:


> The irnoy in that statement is so thick I'm surprised you haven't choked on it. It would appear dear fellow, that it is I infact that's getting the harsher treatment for expressing MY views rather than the other way around. Effectively what you 're saying is I should shut the [email protected] up because I don't share your opinion. Wonderful...


No you see there you go again, patronising.

What l actually meant was maybe you should stop patronising people who dont agree with YOU.


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## Huntingground (Jan 10, 2010)

Athenian said:


> You 're right, next time I'll dumb it down to get in line with all the mindless rants about killing, raping and beating criminals.
> 
> It doens't suprpise me in the least that a dissenting opinion is charcaterised as offensive or smug when the track record in this thread so far shows an overwhelming support for majority rule over any and all personal rights of exrpession of ideas.
> 
> Damn it, there I go again, articulating and argumenting all over the place... shame on me.


What a bellend!!! Love the way you are trying to patronise people you don't even know. What is your job?

Any pics or vids of your lifts? This is a muscle-building website after all..........


----------



## Athenian (Sep 19, 2012)

Dave said:


> You obviously dont live in the real world athenian, im sorry m8. These kids dont care one bit about the law, because they know its flaws.


The laws flaws are our responsibility to fix, how can anyone argue with this is beyond me. If they know something is broken and we don't fix it, we share some of the blame as to why they keep on doing it.



Dave said:


> What will happen to them once they are caught? Asbo and maybe some community service? Give me a break!


I have said penty of times that I advocate for harsher prison sentences, I'm only against violence as a means of appeasing the people's rage and blood-lust.



Dave said:


> If they come from a rough upbringing or not they still know right from wrong! Giving their behaviour an excuse is beyond ridicules!


What excuse are you talking about? Where have I ever written that they aren't to blame? I said that they aren't the only ones to blame. I advocate for both personal and social responsibility. As I stated above, we can't as a society have such lax rules and laws and then blame violent and unhinged people from re-offending the first chance they get. We should have done a better job at keeping them behind bars.



Dave said:


> Send them down to Longsight, Cheetham Hill, Broughton, Moss Side for a day and see if talking / trying to educate them actually works.. its all nonsense!


You can't change over night what has been bred over years and generations. But you can make a start.


----------



## Ashcrapper (Jul 3, 2008)

Huntingground said:


> What a bellend!!! Love the way you are trying to patronise people you don't even know. What is your job?
> 
> Any pics or vids of your lifts? This is a muscle-building website after all..........


you clearly arent intelligent enough to converse with Athenian so please cease with your mindless thuggery. Come with me instead to bullshit land, im off helping some African kids


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## Milky (Nov 30, 2008)

Athenian said:


> The laws flaws are our responsibility to fix, how can anyone argue with this is beyond me. If they know something is broken and we don't fix it, we share some of the blame as to why they keep on doing it.
> 
> I have said penty of times that I advocate for harsher prison sentences, I'm only against violence as a means of appeasing the people's rage and blood-lust.
> 
> ...


Years ago, people said harsh sentances dont work, so we went all lilly livered and liberal, and this is where we have ended up.

Is it really so wrong that people should be treated as harshly as they treated there victims, with discern and total disregard ?


----------



## Huntingground (Jan 10, 2010)

Ashcrapper said:


> you clearly arent intelligent enough to converse with Athenian so please cease with your mindless thuggery. Come with me instead to bullshit land, im off helping some African kids


Apologies, Hamster, I forgot my place. I'm off to help out in the soup kitchens in E1, London. I am a saint too.


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## Athenian (Sep 19, 2012)

Huntingground said:


> What is your job?


I'm an assistant lawyer at the State Prosecturo's Office of the Republic in Cyprus in Nicosia. I deal with crime, criminals and victims.



Huntingground said:


> Any pics or vids of your lifts? This is a muscle-building website after all..........


And this is a thread about an entirely different topic, or would you have evertone here start posting pics and vids on every single thread?


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## Ashcrapper (Jul 3, 2008)

Athenian said:


> *I'm an assistant lawyer* at the State Prosecturo's Office of the Republic in Cyprus in Nicosia. I deal with crime, criminals and victims.
> 
> And this is a thread about an entirely different topic, or would you have evertone here start posting pics and vids on every single thread?


aha! that explains why you are a complete **** then


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## Huntingground (Jan 10, 2010)

Athenian said:


> I'm an assistant lawyer at the State Prosecturo's Office of the Republic in Cyprus in Nicosia. I deal with crime, criminals and victims.
> 
> And this is a thread about an entirely different topic, or would you have evertone here start posting pics and vids on every single thread?


Assistant = tea boy. Well done.

I am a senior IT consultant in database operations for the largest investment bank in the world. I don't patronise or talk down to anyone as we are all the same on here. I am no better than anyone on here.

No avi pic etc = pencil neck usually :lol:


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## Athenian (Sep 19, 2012)

Milky said:


> Years ago, people said harsh sentances dont work, so we went all lilly livered and liberal, and this is where we have ended up.


Well then those people were wrong, but that's hardly a reason to revet back to stone-age a mentality. Each generation shoudl try to be beter than the previous one, not worse.



Milky said:


> Is it really so wrong that people should be treated as harshly as they treated there victims, with discern and total disregard ?


In one word: YES.

Justice and revenge are not the same thing and you can either have one or the other, and when choosing, keep in mind that one man's notion of sufficient revenge doesn't always coincide with yours. I might find throwing someone in jail punishment enough for keying my car, but someone else might prefer 10 minutes alone with a baseball bat.


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## Guest (Oct 18, 2012)

The thing is they do know what is broken.

Its the looking over it with rose tinted glasses where the problem lies. The MP's and such who advocate useless tactics in order to try and change things that ultimately dont work.

Look at Asbo's for starters, what purpose does that actually serve? Other than a merit badge for those that have one.

You will never change who is at the top, that is where the problem lies! These people dont know real life, what its like growing up in next to poverty or a high crime area.

These people have country homes, and bill the tax payer for their moats being cleaned and such, yet have the ability to pass laws down that are pointless and dont work.

Half of these politicians are on the fiddle themselves, they are the biggest thieves and liars, they get away with it because they wear a suit.

Tell you exactly what you want to hear, and push the rest under the carpet.


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## Athenian (Sep 19, 2012)

Huntingground said:


> No avi pic etc = pencil neck usually :lol:


And this what to do with my arguments? I could just as easily say you must be one hideous looking ratface for blacking out your avi pic.

 I have a picture album on my profile. Go knock yourself out.


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## Conscript (Sep 5, 2010)

A Talking Head - A person whose talk is empty and pretentious.


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## Huntingground (Jan 10, 2010)

Athenian said:


> And this what to do with my arguments? I could just as easily say you must be one hideous looking ratface for blacking out your avi pic.
> 
> I have a picture album on my profile. Go knock yourself out.


Like the way you missed out the conversation about jobs 

You look emaciated in your profile pics. Eat some food.


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## Athenian (Sep 19, 2012)

Dave said:


> The thing is they do know what is broken.
> 
> Its the looking over it with rose tinted glasses where the problem lies. The MP's and such who advocate useless tactics in order to try and change things that ultimately dont work.
> 
> ...


Apathy is only their best weapon against us. Get the majority feeling helpless and frustrated and turn them against each other. We have the power to change things, but it takes a LONG time and a LOT of effort, which many people don't seem capable or willing to commit to.

Call me an idealist but I'd rather try curing the deaseas rather than be content treating it with aspirins and pain killers.


----------



## Milky (Nov 30, 2008)

Athenian said:


> Well then those people were wrong, but that's hardly a reason to revet back to stone-age a mentality. Each generation shoudl try to be beter than the previous one, not worse.
> 
> In one word: YES.
> 
> Justice and revenge are not the same thing and you can either have one or the other, and when choosing, keep in mind that one man's notion of sufficient revenge doesn't always coincide with yours. I might find throwing someone in jail punishment enough for keying my car, but someone else might prefer 10 minutes alone with a baseball bat.


Well at 43 yrs old l would rather go back to times where people were feared of punishment and didnt laugh at authority and see them as spineless.

Your last sentance says a lot really.

This thread is about an old man being beaten by thugs, not some petty crime, IMO a VERY serious crime where again IMO they need some poetic justice and not a short stretch or asbo....

No one advocates jail for vandaliam, although hand on heart l would pummel them if l caught them doing it to my car.

Tell me how do you feel about the recent spate of people killing burglars in there homes and not facing prosecution ?


----------



## Athenian (Sep 19, 2012)

Huntingground said:


> Like the way you missed out the conversation about jobs
> 
> You look emaciated in your profile pics. Eat some food.


What about the jobs? You amde a claim, good for you. You could be a McD's WC cleaner and no one could prove you wrong, so what's the point? Oh yes, the point is to distract from the fact that you haven't got anything to contribute to the thread and are just taking the ****.


----------



## Huntingground (Jan 10, 2010)

Athenian said:


> What about the jobs? You amde a claim, good for you. You could be a McD's WC cleaner and no one could prove you wrong, so what's the point? Oh yes, the point is to distract from the fact that you haven't got anything to contribute to the thread and are just taking the ****.


No, you are incorrect again. My point is that there are people in much higher rated and higher paid jobs on here than you, also people who are much more intelligent than you, yet you try to belittle people by verbosity when it is just vacuous nonsense.

Of course I am taking the p1ss out of you but hey, you don't need me to do it, you do well enough yourself


----------



## Athenian (Sep 19, 2012)

Milky said:


> Well at 43 yrs old l would rather go back to times where people were feared of punishment and didnt laugh at authority and see them as spineless.


And I'd rather live in a society where people have respect for rather than fear the authorities. Your way is definetely easier, I'll grant you that, but a dictatorship is a hell of a lot easier than a democracy.



Milky said:


> This thread is about an old man being beaten by thugs, not some petty crime, IMO a VERY serious crime where again IMO they need some poetic justice and not a short stretch or asbo....


My example was ot intended to mirror this particular incident, but to make an example of how one man's perception of righteous punishment can be so drastically different from another's, that the Law should be the only measure taken into consideration. Ergo, don't liek the Law? Try and change it, don't take it into your own hands.



Milky said:


> No one advocates jail for vandaliam, although hand on heart l would pummel them if l caught them doing it to my car.


Thank you for proving my point. If we had it your way, the world would be a jungle and we 'd all need to armed to the teeth just to survive a trip down to the local corner-shop.



Milky said:


> Tell me how do you feel about the recent spate of people killing burglars in there homes and not facing prosecution ?


depends entirely on the circumstances of the case. If someone is awoken in the middle of the night to find strangers lurking over him in his room or in the room of a loved one and he reacted instinctively and killed them then I cannot find any fault.

But, if he awakens to a sound in his garage, has ample time to call the police and secure his and his family's safety but instead goes down and shoots a robber while he's going out the window and is in no way, shape or form a threat to anyone, then he deserves to be punished.


----------



## Milky (Nov 30, 2008)

Athenian said:


> And I'd rather live in a society where people have respect for rather than fear the authorities. Your way is definetely easier, I'll grant you that, but a dictatorship is a hell of a lot easier than a democracy.
> 
> My example was ot intended to mirror this particular incident, but to make an example of how one man's perception of righteous punishment can be so drastically different from another's, that the Law should be the only measure taken into consideration. Ergo, don't liek the Law? Try and change it, don't take it into your own hands.
> 
> ...


And THIS proves my point.

I dont know what your lifestyle is like, your surroundings etc but HERE in this country, this is EXACTLY what its like now.

You cant go anywhere and feel safe.

Oh and yet again proving what a patronising git you are telling me what the world would be like if l had my way.


----------



## lucs (Apr 8, 2011)

http://rawjustice.com/2010/10/25/10-brutal-judicial-punishments-from-the-middle-ages/

i little extream but prevention better than cure


----------



## Athenian (Sep 19, 2012)

Huntingground said:


> No, you are incorrect again. My point is that there are people in much higher rated and higher paid jobs on here than you, also people who are much more intelligent than you, yet you try to belittle people by verbosity when it is just vacuous nonsense.


Rate and pay of a job are irrelevant to the discussion at hand. I prosecute criminals and help victims attain a sense of justice. My opinion is validate by that, more than yours as an IT consultant. Next time we debate an anti-virus software I doubt you 'd think someone who's never owned a computer should be taken as seriously as you.



Huntingground said:


> Of course I am taking the p1ss out of you but hey, you don't need me to do it, you do well enough yourself


I'm not the one making juvenille remarks and insults about someone's appearence and how it corresponds to their argument's veracity.


----------



## lukeee (Aug 17, 2009)

Athenian said:


> Well then those people were wrong, but that's hardly a reason to revet back to stone-age a mentality. Each generation shoudl try to be beter than the previous one, not worse.
> 
> In one word: YES.
> 
> Justice and revenge are not the same thing and you can either have one or the other, and when choosing, keep in mind that one man's notion of sufficient revenge doesn't always coincide with yours. I might find throwing someone in jail punishment enough for keying my car, but someone else might prefer 10 minutes alone with a baseball bat.


Ten minutes???


----------



## lucs (Apr 8, 2011)

http://rawjustice.com/2010/10/25/10-brutal-judicial-punishments-from-the-middle-ages/

i little extream but prevention better than cure


----------



## Fatstuff (Mar 2, 2010)

Bit of bullying going on imo


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## Athenian (Sep 19, 2012)

Milky said:


> And THIS proves my point.
> 
> I dont know what your lifestyle is like, your surroundings etc but HERE in this country, this is EXACTLY what its like now.


Oh come on, you make it sound like you live in an active war zone. I now there's obviously safer places tha others but if things were as bad as you 're portraying them you 'd have daily riots and Special Branch's armed divisions on alert 24/7



Huntingground said:


> Oh and yet again proving what a patronising git you are telling me what the world would be like if l had my way.


Now you 're just being a child. Don't you recognise a obvious figure of speech when you see one?


----------



## Ashcrapper (Jul 3, 2008)

Fatstuff said:


> Bit of bullying going on imo


I agree


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## Milky (Nov 30, 2008)

Athenian said:


> Oh come on, you make it sound like you live in an active war zone. I now there's obviously safer places tha others but if things were as bad as you 're portraying them you 'd have daily riots and Special Branch's armed divisions on alert 24/7
> 
> Now you 're just being a child. Don't you recognise a obvious figure of speech when you see one?


Yes l do know of areas near me that resemble war zones, police women being killed by shots and hand grenades, people having there brains blown out for no reason, drug dealers shooting fu*k out of each other DAILY...

I also know drug dealers, armed robbers, who wouldnt think twice about taing you out if you crossed them so allthough not exactly a war zone, not a pleasant place to live, and its not just one area of Britain.


----------



## Milky (Nov 30, 2008)

Fatstuff said:


> Bit of bullying going on imo


Your entitled to your opinion mate.


----------



## Huntingground (Jan 10, 2010)

Athenian said:


> Rate and pay of a job are irrelevant to the discussion at hand. I prosecute criminals and help victims attain a sense of justice. My opinion is validate by that, more than yours as an IT consultant. Next time we debate an anti-virus software I doubt you 'd think someone who's never owned a computer should be taken as seriously as you.
> 
> I'm not the one making juvenille remarks and insults about someone's appearence and how it corresponds to their argument's veracity.


Again, you are incorrect. I haven't remarked on the thread subject, I have only commented on your posts which can only be described as delusional and they convey a feeling of megalomania/narcissism (Greek word for you there  ) about them, and are also derogatory to fellow UKM posters. Can you please find my post where I have commented on the OP.

Also I look after databases - if you read my post you would understand that. Anybody with an eye for detail or a modicum of intelligence would pick up on that and realise that anti-virus software has nothing to do with databases.

Regarding p1ss-taking, that comes with the territory.


----------



## Conscript (Sep 5, 2010)

Fatstuff said:


> Bit of bullying going on imo


Shut it! opcorn:


----------



## lucs (Apr 8, 2011)

ive not read all the posts but when i see these things i wonder what i would want done if it was my father or grandfatherbeing attacked. as for any excuse of upbringing yes it can cause it, in which case the parents should be accountable as well. but the softly softly approach is not working as it gets worse year by year


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## Milky (Nov 30, 2008)

lucanuk said:


> ive not read all the posts but when i see these things i wonder what i would want done if it was my father or grandfatherbeing attacked. as for any excuse of upbringing yes it can cause it, in which case the parents should be accountable as well. but the softly softly approach is not working as it gets worse year by year


You know mate, pmy parents leathered ne as a kid, did l do it too my kids NO.

YOU ARE WHAT YOU MAKE YOURSELF IN THIS WORLD.

And too many wan*ers now a days want to blame someone or something for there own misgivings.

The easy way out.


----------



## Athenian (Sep 19, 2012)

Milky said:


> Yes l do know of areas near me that resemble war zones, police women being killed by shots and hand grenades, people having there brains blown out for no reason, drug dealers shooting fu*k out of each other DAILY...
> 
> I also know drug dealers, armed robbers, who wouldnt think twice about taing you out if you crossed them so allthough not exactly a war zone, not a pleasant place to live, and its not just one area of Britain.


And do you believe this happened over night? Or was it caused by a chronic accumulation over a long period of time with various contributing factors each playing it's very own seperate part?

You 're advocating for action that will remedy the situation, only aggrevate it. Show me one instance in history where violence and a society with draconian measures and punishments has prospered in the long run. The Soviet regime was on of the msot ruthless ever, and they came crashing down.

Sooner or later, when people start laying down all their rights in exchange for a sense of safety, they will fidn them all gone, and then that's when the real fun begins.


----------



## lucs (Apr 8, 2011)

Milky said:


> You know mate, pmy parents leathered ne as a kid, did l do it too my kids NO.
> 
> YOU ARE WHAT YOU MAKE YOURSELF IN THIS WORLD.
> 
> ...


my father was 6'4 and 20 st natty him growling when your a child was enough, if step to far out of line the back of the shovel size hand was enough to put me back in line.


----------



## lukeee (Aug 17, 2009)

Athenian said:


> And do you believe this happened over night? Or was it caused by a chronic accumulation over a long period of time with various contributing factors each playing it's very own seperate part?
> 
> You 're advocating for action that will remedy the situation, only aggrevate it. Show me one instance in history where violence and a society with draconian measures and punishments has prospered in the long run. The Soviet regime was on of the msot ruthless ever, and they came crashing down.
> 
> Sooner or later, when people start laying down all their rights in exchange for a sense of safety, they will fidn them all gone, and then that's when the real fun begins.


I dont think russia fcuk around with their criminals mate, id much rather get in trouble here than there.


----------



## Milky (Nov 30, 2008)

Athenian said:


> And do you believe this happened over night? Or was it caused by a chronic accumulation over a long period of time with various contributing factors each playing it's very own seperate part?
> 
> *You 're advocating for action that will remedy the situation, only aggrevate it*. Show me one instance in history where violence and a society with draconian measures and punishments has prospered in the long run. The Soviet regime was on of the msot ruthless ever, and they came crashing down.
> 
> Sooner or later, when people start laying down all their rights in exchange for a sense of safety, they will fidn them all gone, and then that's when the real fun begins.


I am confused by this sentance, l am guessing a word has been missed.

Is it so wrong to want people to fear the law ? To fear punishment ?

I as a child was terrified of the police, and that kept me in line, l now respect them for the job they do.

Can l add despite history l still believe they were better times and that its only your opinion that these things wouldnt work now.

Did they not have a zero tolerance period in NY that was very productive ?


----------



## Milky (Nov 30, 2008)

lucanuk said:


> my father was 6'4 and 20 st natty him growling when your a child was enough, if step to far out of line the back of the shovel size hand was enough to put me back in line.


Mate l cant even remember how old l was when l started getting a crack for " misbehaving " .

I swore l wouldnt do this to my kids and l didnt.

I could have done and blamed MY parents, why not, every other fu*ker thinks its a good excuse.


----------



## Athenian (Sep 19, 2012)

Huntingground said:


> Again, you are incorrect. I haven't remarked on the thread subject, I have only commented on your posts which can only be described as delusional and they convey a feeling of megalomania/narcissism (Greek word for you there  ) about them, and are also derogatory to fellow UKM posters. Can you please find my post where I have commented on the OP.


.

Nice attempt at obfuscation there. You may have not commented on the substence of the OP/thread, but you certainly make ad hominem attacks against me siting the irrelevant fact that this is a bb website and implied a correlation between the validity of my opinion and my physical appearence.



Huntingground said:


> Also I look after databases - if you read my post you would understand that. Anybody with an eye for detail or a modicum of intelligence would pick up on that and realise that anti-virus software has nothing to do with databases.


Well, seeing how I have 0 interest or knowledge in computers, you can rejoice over that false association I made and feel better about having 'intelligence' over a learnt subject rather then knowledge or education on the subject. Friendly suggestion here mate; use the same on;ine theasurus you looked up narcissim to also see where the term 'intelligence' applies.



Huntingground said:


> Regarding p1ss-taking, that comes with the territory.


So was my last comment regarding the theasurus. Just putting that out there before you get all offended lol.


----------



## chelios (Jun 26, 2010)

Only in this country because of the **** law not giving proper time.


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## Fatstuff (Mar 2, 2010)

Conscript said:


> Shut it! opcorn:


Still think it's bullying lol


----------



## Ackee&amp;Saltfish (Mar 18, 2011)

Ashcrapper said:


> sorry but who the **** are you to say who does and doesnt care about the victim here? forgive me if im wrong but you actually *havent got a clue what ANYONE in this thread is thinking*, you are making assumptions.


i have a good idea what a few were thinking a couple days ago :rolleye:


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## Athenian (Sep 19, 2012)

Milky said:


> Is it so wrong to want people to fear the law ? To fear punishment ?


No necessarily, but it sets a dangerous precedence. Punishments and the Law aren't here to just make people wary of consequences, but also to instill a sense of respect for justice in the rest of us. We don't live i moral vacuums. How we treat our criminals speaks volumes about us as a society.



Milky said:


> I as a child was terrified of the police, and that kept me in line, l now respect them for the job they do.


But that's you. There are plenty of criminals who grew up in virtually identical settings, so what happened in their cases? Obviously what works for one doesn't work for all, so imposing such a rigid standard can be just as beneificial as detrimental.

Many people base their moral compasses on a religous fear of eternal damnation. It doesn't make them better people for not killing someone because they 're afraid they will burn in hell, it just makes them really scared, and what happens if one day they stop believing? They now have 0 zero to uphold any law or moral obligation towards anyone. Isn't it better to raise people with RESPECT for each other rather than fear? Other EU countries seem to be managing it, maybe it's high time we took the hint.



Milky said:


> Can l add despite history l still believe they were better times and that its only your opinion that these things wouldnt work now.


As is it only your opinion that they would work now ;-).

See how much nicer things are when we exchange view points rather than insults.

Despite of what I've been accussed of, it's not my intention to provoke or insult anyone, but if my opinion does then too bad.

Like Richard Dawkins has said: You have the right to be offended, but you do not have the right to not be offended.

Other people's opinions here offend me, and I do my best to argue against them. Isn't that what conversations are about?



Milky said:


> Did they not have a zero tolerance period in NY that was very productive ?


I don't know, did they? And if they did, on what crimes?

I know that the US war on crimes 0 policy when it comes to drug offenses certainly hasn't yielded the results they expected. Neither has the death pently stopped people from killing each other.

In fact, in cases where a criminal commits an act that carries the death penalty, they are far less likely to surrender and far more likely to kill witnesses and police in order to evade capture. It's a give and take scenario with lots of innocent people 'giving' their lives as a consequence.


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## Athenian (Sep 19, 2012)

Milky said:


> Mate l cant even remember how old l was when l started getting a crack for " misbehaving " .
> 
> I swore l wouldnt do this to my kids and l didnt.
> 
> I could have done and blamed MY parents, why not, every other fu*ker thinks its a good excuse.


And are you children murdering gang members? I doubt it, therefore you must have done something right without having to resort to corporal punishment.


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## Ashcrapper (Jul 3, 2008)

Athenian said:


> See how much nicer things are when we exchange view points rather than insults.
> 
> Despite of what I've been accussed of, it's not my intention to provoke or insult anyone, but if my opinion does then too bad.
> 
> ...


either that or you just insult people calling them bullshitters when their response doesnt fit into your way of thinking


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## Milky (Nov 30, 2008)

Athenian said:


> No necessarily, but it sets a dangerous precedence. Punishments and the Law aren't here to just make people wary of consequences, but also to instill a sense of respect for justice in the rest of us. We don't live i moral vacuums. How we treat our criminals speaks volumes about us as a society.
> 
> But that's you. There are plenty of criminals who grew up in virtually identical settings, so what happened in their cases? Obviously what works for one doesn't work for all, so imposing such a rigid standard can be just as beneificial as detrimental.
> 
> ...


Pretty sure it was Judge Giuliani IIRC.

It worked very well and it was for ALL crimes from the petty to the serious.

The general consensus by the people who lived there was it was a great idea.


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## lucs (Apr 8, 2011)

Athenian said:


> And are you children murdering gang members? I doubt it, therefore you must have done something right without having to resort to corporal punishment.


ive stayed out of this but i have a question for you sir, do you think all crimes should be treated the same way. for example Ian brady, or any other child killer against this guy attacking a defencless OAP. i know there far a part crime wise im just trying to understand you thinking on these things


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## Athenian (Sep 19, 2012)

Ashcrapper said:


> either that or you just insult people calling them bullshitters when their response doesnt fit into your way of thinking


Pardon me for not taking you on your word when you 've demostrated a clear dislike for me that gives you every motive to lie in order to attempt to invalidate my position.


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## Milky (Nov 30, 2008)

Athenian said:


> And are you children murdering gang members? I doubt it, therefore you must have done something right without having to resort to corporal punishment.


No they are not BUT l have brought them up strictly to respect people.

My point was I DID NOT follow the route that my upbringing suggest l should have, hence why l refuse to accept your unbringing can be used as an excuse for your shortcomings as an adult.


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## Athenian (Sep 19, 2012)

Milky said:


> Pretty sure it was Judge Giuliani IIRC.
> 
> It worked very well and it was for ALL crimes from the petty to the serious.
> 
> The general consensus by the people who lived there was it was a great idea.


Did this 0 tolerance involve any physical beatings? I doubt it.

I'm guessing it was along the lines of hasher prison sentences with fewer mitigating circumstances taken into consideration. What I'm advocating isn't too far off from that mate.

If someone is damaged goods, then by all means, lock them up for good so they can't ever hurt anyone else ever again. I just don't see the point in allowing violence against them be part of the punishment. It doesn't do anything to keep us safe, it's just appeases an instict of rage.


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## Huntingground (Jan 10, 2010)

Athenian said:


> .
> 
> Nice attempt at obfuscation there. You may have not commented on the substence of the OP/thread, but you certainly make ad hominem attacks against me siting the irrelevant fact that this is a bb website and implied a correlation between the validity of my opinion and my physical appearence.
> 
> ...


Now I understand why you are an assistant lawyer. Thanks for admitting you were wrong in stating that I had commented on the original post. This kind of mistake would mean the end of a case I imagine.

Also, well done on admitting that you were incorrect regarding the anti-virus software. I enjoyed the comments you made over my "narcissism" remark. I went to private school and studied Latin and also Greek history so no need for me to look anything up. Well done on displaying your astounding lack of intelligence and also overbearing arrogance with your remarks though.

No offence taken. Why would there be? I could use words like Megalomania and Narcissism in every day life if I wanted to look an id1ot like you have come across in this thread.


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## Ashcrapper (Jul 3, 2008)

Athenian said:


> Pardon me for not taking you on your word when you 've demostrated a clear dislike for me that gives you every motive to lie in order to attempt to invalidate my position.


actually I believe I have repped you in previous threads so you are quite wrong. I took a dislike to you when I didnt validate your argument and as a result got called a bullshitter when your well educated, holier than thou mask slipped. for the record what I said is 100% true. I may be a **** but im not a liar. so **** you


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## lukeee (Aug 17, 2009)

Athenian said:


> Did this 0 tolerance involve any physical beatings? I doubt it.
> 
> I'm guessing it was along the lines of hasher prison sentences with fewer mitigating circumstances taken into consideration. What I'm advocating isn't too far off from that mate.
> 
> If someone is damaged goods, then by all means, lock them up for good so they can't ever hurt anyone else ever again. I just don't see the point in allowing violence against them be part of the punishment. It doesn't do anything to keep us safe, it's just appeases an instict of rage.


If we were to lock people up for good would it not be kinder to put them out of their misery? also the money saved from not having to keep them banged up could be put to better use helping people.


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## Athenian (Sep 19, 2012)

Milky said:


> No they are not BUT l have brought them up strictly to respect people.
> 
> My point was I DID NOT follow the route that my upbringing suggest l should have, hence why l refuse to accept your unbringing can be used as an excuse for your shortcomings as an adult.


It isn't the ONLY factor, but you can't deny that the fact that the overwhelming majority of offenders come from the lower economic classes of EVERY society. If it were all just an excuse then we 'd see just as many kids from rich suburbs joing gangs and beating people.

Some people can rise above it, others can't or won't. I just want to make sure we are puishing each accoridng to which of the two applied to them, and do our best to ofer others a better chance at making the right choices.

Personal responisbility and social responisbility are best practised TOGETHER. One without the other is always less likley to produce as many results as both working together.


----------



## Milky (Nov 30, 2008)

Athenian said:


> Did this 0 tolerance involve any physical beatings? I doubt it.
> 
> I'm guessing it was along the lines of hasher prison sentences with fewer mitigating circumstances taken into consideration. What I'm advocating isn't too far off from that mate.
> 
> If someone is damaged goods, then by all means, lock them up for good so they can't ever hurt anyone else ever again. I just don't see the point in allowing violence against them be part of the punishment. It doesn't do anything to keep us safe, it's just appeases an instict of rage.


Obviously not no, BUT my point being he got the scum off the streets by not putting up with there sh*t FULL STOP.

I do believe in Karma and l do believe ( in fact l know ) that these bastards if they get caught do get whats coming to them in retribution.

I have had a few scrapes with the law BUT l knew they were going to win no matter what so l did as l was told. This IMO is what this country is lacking.


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## Athenian (Sep 19, 2012)

Huntingground said:


> Now I understand why you are an assistant lawyer. Thanks for admitting you were wrong in stating that I had commented on the original post. This kind of mistake would mean the end of a case I imagine.
> 
> Also, well done on admitting that you were incorrect regarding the anti-virus software. I enjoyed the comments you made over my "narcissism" remark. I went to private school and studied Latin and also Greek history so no need for me to look anything up. Well done on displaying your astounding lack of intelligence and also overbearing arrogance with your remarks though.
> 
> No offence taken. Why would there be? I could use words like Megalomania and Narcissism in every day life if I wanted to look an id1ot like you have come across in this thread.


Now who's being all self-important and megalomaniacal?

I love how you make sweeping statements about my profession. Truely the mark of an 'intelligent' man.


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## Ackee&amp;Saltfish (Mar 18, 2011)

f*ck me theres plenty of long words getting thrown around up in here...y cant we go back 2 txt spk?


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## Athenian (Sep 19, 2012)

Ashcrapper said:


> actually I believe I have repped you in previous threads so you are quite wrong. I took a dislike to you when I didnt validate your argument and as a result got called a bullshitter when your well educated, holier than thou mask slipped. for the record what I said is 100% true. I may be a **** but im not a liar. so **** you


Repping me in another thread isn't indicative of anything. My position on this issue is clearly of more importance in your assessment of me than the other topic, as evidence by the fact that you feel the need to resort to uncalled for profanity despite me not having done so towards you.


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## lucs (Apr 8, 2011)

Athenian said:


> It isn't the ONLY factor, but you can't deny that the fact that the overwhelming majority of offenders come from the lower economic classes of EVERY society. If it were all just an excuse then we 'd see just as many kids from rich suburbs joing gangs and beating people.
> 
> Some people can rise above it, others can't or won't. I just want to make sure we are puishing each accoridng to which of the two applied to them, and do our best to ofer others a better chance at making the right choices.
> 
> Personal responisbility and social responisbility are best practised TOGETHER. One without the other is always less likley to produce as many results as both working together.


so if you come from a good home, parents, money etc etc and you comit a crime you should be treated differently to some one from a poor, disrupted life ?


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## Huntingground (Jan 10, 2010)

Athenian said:


> Now who's being all self-important and megalomaniacal?
> 
> I love how you make sweeping statements about my profession. Truely the mark of an 'intelligent' man.


CASE CLOSED. :thumb:


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## Ashcrapper (Jul 3, 2008)

Athenian said:


> *Repping me in another thread isn't indicative of anything*. My position on this issue is clearly of more importance in your assessment of me than the other topic, as evidence by the fact that you feel the need to resort to uncalled for profanity despite me not having done so towards you.


clearly it is. as I have agreed with you in previous threads so much so I have bothered to rep you for it. that is hardly the behaviour of a person who dislikes someone is it not? I called you out because you made a ridiculous and quite pompous generalisation which I wholeheartedly disagreed with. you then challenged anyone to have looked after victims and other unfortunate people. Sadly for you that is something I certainly have been involved with for a number of years and as this didnt fit your line of attack YOU chose to start throwing out insults then took your ball in when you got some in return.


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## Athenian (Sep 19, 2012)

lukeee said:


> If we were to lock people up for good would it not be kinder to put them out of their misery?


Kinder? Only if locking them up for life entailed regular physical and emotional torment specifically designed and administered in order to make them suffer. Otherwise, spening the majoirty of your waking hours for 40-50 years in a holding cell isn't a nice pass-time I'll give you that, but I'd think most people would prefer it then being put to death, as most people sentenced to death tend to appeal their death sentences.



lukeee said:


> also the money saved from not having to keep them banged up could be put to better use helping people.


And the money saved from creating a better society which doesn't have so much crime can also be put to better use. At the end of the day it coems down to what kidn of a scoiety we want a part of, one that tires to prevent crime from happening or one that kills it's people for them?


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## Athenian (Sep 19, 2012)

Milky said:


> Obviously not no, BUT my point being he got the scum off the streets by not putting up with there sh*t FULL STOP.


And I'mm all for 'stopping the bull****'. Just because I recognise society's falinings in creating a better place for people doesn't mean I advoccate a total absense of personal responsibility. I just don't agree in violence as a punishment.

Lock people up for their crimes, only consider mitigating circumstances where they are appropriate and try to change the reasons behind that crime.



Milky said:


> I do believe in Karma and l do believe ( in fact l know ) that these bastards if they get caught do get whats coming to them in retribution.
> 
> I have had a few scrapes with the law BUT l knew they were going to win no matter what so l did as l was told. This IMO is what this country is lacking.


I don't believe in karma at all. if that were the case then we wouldn't need the Police or the Law. The universe would just take care of itself.


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## lucs (Apr 8, 2011)

i was attempting to understand this guy but now ive had a read of it all i have this to say, you will not impress anyone here with big words. we dont care what you study at grown up school as it has no bearing on the real world. when you leave the bubble you live in and get robbed beaten or have to deal with life in a poor area you may find you opinion changes.

it sounds like you come from a privaliged back ground so good for you, but please dont try to tell people who live with the type of people you refer to, as if you know better. i lived on a london council estate for the first 35 years of my life. i wont detail what ive seen or who i knew who have done this and that all i know is you know nish about this typr of person


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## Athenian (Sep 19, 2012)

lucanuk said:


> so if you come from a good home, parents, money etc etc and you comit a crime you should be treated differently to some one from a poor, disrupted life ?


Not exactly, I was thinking more in terms of rehabilitation and mitigation. The Law isn't a stiff one-size-fitss-all standard. The reason and the circumstances under which you commit a crime are allowed to be considered (after the court deems it appropriate).

Not all criminals are the same and not all crimes are the same either.

Stealing a car worth £10,000 is monetarily more 'important' than stealing a wallet with £100 in it, but what if the car was stolen without anyone getting hurt while the wallet was stolen during a mugging at knife point?


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## Milky (Nov 30, 2008)

Athenian said:


> And I'mm all for 'stopping the bull****'. Just because I recognise society's falinings in creating a better place for people doesn't mean I advoccate a total absense of personal responsibility. I just don't agree in violence as a punishment.
> 
> Lock people up for their crimes, only consider mitigating circumstances where they are appropriate and try to change the reasons behind that crime.
> 
> I don't believe in karma at all. if that were the case then we wouldn't need the Police or the Law. The universe would just take care of itself.


I dont believe Karma will run the world but l do believe you reap what you so ( again frome personal experience ) and l believe bad things happen to bad people.

I genuinely believe that you and l ( and most members on here TBH ) come from very different worlds and will never agree on what is sufficient punishment for people who think it is acceptable to beat an old man up.

Not saying it makes you a bad person but it doesnt make you correct and everyone else wrong mate and that was my issue.

Can l ask, and this is not a leading question but are you from an affluent family / area ?

I ask because you seem to hold the views of a person who has never had to confront these bastards first hand, never had a friend stabbed or gun pulled on them etc. These things change your veiw on the judicial system.


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## Diegouru (Oct 31, 2010)

A bullet between the eyebrows. Thats what those "bravs" deserve!


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## Athenian (Sep 19, 2012)

Ashcrapper said:


> clearly it is. as I have agreed with you in previous threads so much so I have bothered to rep you for it. that is hardly the behaviour of a person who dislikes someone is it not? I called you out because you made a ridiculous and quite pompous generalisation which I wholeheartedly disagreed with. you then challenged anyone to have looked after victims and other unfortunate people. Sadly for you that is something I certainly have been involved with for a number of years and as this didnt fit your line of attack YOU chose to start throwing out insults then took your ball in when you got some in return.


And sadly for you, your swearing on a stack of bibles that anything you 've claimed is true, it doesn't prevent me from disbeliving you based on your attitude and behaviour towards me, as well as your constant personal attacks and plain old foul language.

But please, fele free to continue with the verbal abuse if that makes you happy.


----------



## Athenian (Sep 19, 2012)

lucanuk said:


> it sounds like you come from a privaliged back ground so good for you, but please dont try to tell people who live with the type of people you refer to, as if you know better. i lived on a london council estate for the first 35 years of my life. i wont detail what ive seen or who i knew who have done this and that all i know is you know nish about this typr of person


Sorry to disappoint you mate, but I don't come from a priviledged background. I certainly haven't lived in a setting where I was being mugged or stabbed every other week, but by all accounts, my upbringing has been what I would describe as lower class. Parents divorced, father naffed off, mother on the dole, housing benefits etc.

I managed to get past it all, and so have other people I know, but that doesn't mean I there aren't others who didn't get out. I'm lucky in that I never dealt with physical abuse, but others have, and not all went on to kill and some did. My point is I'd rather try and help prevent the abuse in the first place so we don't have to deal with it's affects later on rather than just say "to hell with it, let's just beat some sense into them".


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## The L Man (Sep 13, 2010)

Things are getting deep in this thread.


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## Ashcrapper (Jul 3, 2008)

Athenian said:


> And sadly for you, your swearing on a stack of bibles that anything you 've claimed is true, it doesn't prevent me from disbeliving you based on your attitude and behaviour towards me, as well as your constant personal attacks and plain old foul language.
> 
> But please, fele free to continue with the verbal abuse if that makes you happy.


sorry pal, I genuinely couldnt care less what you think of me. I'm merely setting the record straight and pointing out the flaws in your argument. you mention feeling free to continue with the verbal abuse yet you still insinuate that im lying. if you think I would make up something like that to score points in an argument with some bloke I will never meet and couldnt give two shits about then you are sadly mistaken. if anything I was pointing out the reasoning behind my attitude towards you perhaps looking for an apology but you dont seem interested so I will leave you to get the piss taken out of you by the rest of the forum. have nice evening


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## lucs (Apr 8, 2011)

Athenian said:


> Sorry to disappoint you mate, but I don't come from a priviledged background. I certainly haven't lived in a setting where I was being mugged or stabbed every other week, but by all accounts, my upbringing has been what I would describe as lower class. Parents divorced, father naffed off, mother on the dole, housing benefits etc.
> 
> I managed to get past it all, and so have other people I know, but that doesn't mean I there aren't others who didn't get out. I'm lucky in that I never dealt with physical abuse, but others have, and not all went on to kill and some did. My point is I'd rather try and help prevent the abuse in the first place so we don't have to deal with it's affects later on rather than just say "to hell with it, let's just beat some sense into them".


ok fair enough i can agree to some degree but, i think its too late for to get the result your looking for, these guys would take your help say thank you then rob your house. they are in there masses all over the place, the extream measures may seem harsh to start with but for the few that suffer it would it not start to prevent another generations deteriation to a low that we are yet to see ?


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## Athenian (Sep 19, 2012)

Milky said:


> I dont believe Karma will run the world but l do believe you reap what you so ( again frome personal experience ) and l believe bad things happen to bad people.


I don't mate. I've seen bad things happen to great people. If bad things do happen to bad people eventually it's usually because their behaviour put them in bad situations, ex a drug dealer who tried to deal to someone and got stabbed and robbed. But that's street justice and I don't agree with it.



Milky said:


> I genuinely believe that you and l ( and most members on here TBH ) come from very different worlds and will never agree on what is sufficient punishment for people who think it is acceptable to beat an old man up.
> 
> Not saying it makes you a bad person but it doesnt make you correct and everyone else wrong mate and that was my issue.


Look, I think at the end of the day most people would rather live in a safe society where people respected each other and didn't kill/steal/rape. I can pretty much say we 're all on the same page concerning this.

However, there simply exists very little reliable evidence that anger, violence and revenge in a justice system make a society safer. We can disagree on why and how that is, but I look at countries like Denmark and Holland and wish we were more like them. Their lower crime and recividism rates can't be a coincedence, obviously there better social programs have led to this.

The UK vastly becoming a plutocracy like the US and I find the way that country opperates very scary.



Milky said:


> Can l ask, and this is not a leading question but are you from an affluent family / area ?
> 
> I ask because you seem to hold the views of a person who has never had to confront these bastards first hand, never had a friend stabbed or gun pulled on them etc. These things change your veiw on the judicial system.


I have no problem sharing the basics.

I grew up in Athens till I was 14. I had a decent upbringing, near the center, not too flashy but hardly middle-class and I went to a state school.

My parents split when I was 13, and after a year my mother decided to move back to Scotland. We setteld in a council flat in the Gorbals and my mother tried to get work but being over 50 and without any skills or education and some health issues we basically lived off the dole. I even qualified for a 40-quid a week allowance for going to school past the age of 16, and the Scottish Executive paid for my tuition fees to university in 2004.

I dont immediately see why people would regard me as upper class. In my experience they are the worst ones in wanting ruthless punishments and jail sentences for every crime regardless of circumstances. I can't tell you the amount of times people have accussed me of being 'soft' because I come from the same social background as offenders so I'm obviously not being impartial.


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## Athenian (Sep 19, 2012)

lucanuk said:


> ok fair enough i can agree to some degree but, i think its too late for to get the result your looking for, these guys would take your help say thank you then rob your house.


But I'm not talking about trying to rehabilitate someone who's 35-40 years old and spent more time in prison that out of it with all the crimes he commited. I'm talking about situations where people still young enought to become productive members of society and lumped together with them and they get lost along the way, adding to the problem.



lucanuk said:


> they are in there masses all over the place, the extream measures may seem harsh to start with but for the few that suffer it would it not start to prevent another generations deteriation to a low that we are yet to see ?


Not if it doesn't reach the newer generations. Long prison sentences can most useful when in conjunction with better social programs. We have areas in the UK where Police are afraid to enter. Can you imagine what it's like for 10 year olds to grow up like that? Violence, thuggery and crime becomes a way of life.

If we only dela with them once they hit the youth offenders system then the fight is 90% over. It's much harder to undo the damage. We need to try and better their living environments.


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## Athenian (Sep 19, 2012)

Ashcrapper said:


> sorry pal, I genuinely couldnt care less what you think of me. I'm merely setting the record straight and pointing out the flaws in your argument. you mention feeling free to continue with the verbal abuse yet you still insinuate that im lying. if you think I would make up something like that to score points in an argument with some bloke I will never meet and couldnt give two shits about then you are sadly mistaken. if anything I was pointing out the reasoning behind my attitude towards you perhaps looking for an apology but you dont seem interested so I will leave you to get the piss taken out of you by the rest of the forum. have nice evening


You too. Don't let that chip on your shoulder give you a bad back ;-)


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## Milky (Nov 30, 2008)

Athenian said:


> I don't mate. I've seen bad things happen to great people. If bad things do happen to bad people eventually it's usually because their behaviour put them in bad situations, ex a drug dealer who tried to deal to someone and got stabbed and robbed. But that's street justice and I don't agree with it.
> 
> Look, I think at the end of the day most people would rather live in a safe society where people respected each other and didn't kill/steal/rape. I can pretty much say we 're all on the same page concerning this.
> 
> ...


Regardless of evidence etc mate the bottom line is its dog eat dog now and the only language these scum understand is there own, unfortunate but true.

My original point in this discussion was people vent there spleen when they see things like this and want immediate revenge with the utmost force, and rightly so IMO as you beat an old man you get a kicking, not something the law can ever advocate but certainly something most people would like to see.

Its there opinion at the end of the day and as l said a vent for there frustration, no real harm done, doesnt make them right and you wrong and vice versa.

I am suprised you still hold these views given your up bringing in Glasgow, this is hardly a haven of peace and tranquility.

What l do know is being soft on these tw*ts doesnt work so l am up for anything that may change that.


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## Conscript (Sep 5, 2010)

Athenian said:


> You too. Don't let that chip on your shoulder give you a bad back ;-)


 :lol:


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## justin case (Jul 31, 2012)

well liberal thinking has all but taken over the western world, so we will just have to watch it play it's self out...but if the government can't bring law and order to the streets then anarchy will follow.


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## Athenian (Sep 19, 2012)

Milky said:


> Regardless of evidence etc mate the bottom line is its dog eat dog now and the only language these scum understand is there own, unfortunate but true.


Yes but that doesn't make it acceptable. If we want to better society we need to be better than our worst elements, not sink to their levbel because it's easier to dela with them like that.

I don't want to live in a society where people go around handing out street justice. It's a recipe for disaster.



Milky said:


> My original point in this discussion was people vent there spleen when they see things like this and want immediate revenge with the utmost force, and rightly so IMO as you beat an old man you get a kicking, not something the law can ever advocate but certainly something most people would like to see.


Again, people forming lynch mobs isn't a solution. If you give people free rein to take matters into their own hands soon they 'll screw up and might kill someone for stealing a car. You can't leave justice up to enraged mobs.



Milky said:


> Its there opinion at the end of the day and as l said a vent for there frustration, no real harm done, doesnt make them right and you wrong and vice versa.


Venting is fine. I'd rather people have an outlet to get rid of their anger than keep it bottled up inside, I'd just rather they re-directed in somewhere it could do more good.



Milky said:


> I am suprised you still hold these views given your up bringing in Glasgow, this is hardly a haven of peace and tranquility.


Like you said, everyon'e different. Glasgow prosecutes more crime per person than any other jurisdiction in the UK, even the London Met (according to a bobby mate of mine before someone call me a liar for it). I doubt adding fuel to the fire would be better than diverting more funds to public schools, helpig kids learn trades and start removing children from the care of obviously unfit and abusive parents, which on a personal note is one of the reasons I would adopt a child from such a background before having my own.



Milky said:


> What l do know is being soft on these tw*ts doesnt work so l am up for anything that may change that.


So am I. I just don't think we should sacrifice our own better judgements in favour of angry retaliations.


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## Fatstuff (Mar 2, 2010)

Can I just congratulate Athenian on handling himself quite well in this situation. IMO he is spot on and has chose his views from a purely realistic view unclouded by emotions.

I'm not saying I can or could take that view myself whatsoever if I could get hold of anyone who hurt me or my family but IMO he is looking at the bigger picture and has put his point forward in a calm manner even when 3 or 4 people were on his case, some of which were not even attacking his opinion but attacking himself personally!

Reps anyway


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## Fatstuff (Mar 2, 2010)

Apparently I'm all out of love lol, my bad!


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## Athenian (Sep 19, 2012)

Fatstuff said:


> Apparently I'm all out of love lol, my bad!


:laugh: No worries mate, its' the thought that counts :-D


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## Fatstuff (Mar 2, 2010)

So they say lol - I owe u 1!


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## ProteinPitstop (Jun 20, 2011)

Too late!



kingdale said:


> in before this is closed before it turns into a race row.


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## Athenian (Sep 19, 2012)

ProteinPitstop said:


> Too late!


That's not fair mate, so far no one's called me a bankrupt dirty greek or a ship-shaggin scotsman. :thumb:


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## ProteinPitstop (Jun 20, 2011)

Ok I'll be the 1st in that case you *bankrupt dirty greek or a ship-shaggin scotsman * :lol:



Athenian said:


> That's not fair mate, so far no one's called me a bankrupt dirty greek or a ship-shaggin scotsman. :thumb:


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## Athenian (Sep 19, 2012)

ProteinPitstop said:


> Ok I'll be the 1st in that case you *bankrupt dirty greek or a ship-shaggin scotsman * :lol:


Well for your information mister, I prefer the term sheep-fornicator, sheep-shagger sounds so nasty... it clearly doesn't encapsulate my true feelings of adoration for the species.


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## ProteinPitstop (Jun 20, 2011)

My mistake, i'll use appropriate language in the future :lol:



Athenian said:


> Well for your information mister, I prefer the term sheep-fornicator, sheep-shagger sounds so nasty... it clearly doesn't encapsulate my true feelings of adoration for the species.


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## Sc4mp0 (Jun 17, 2012)

Edited: Actually cant be 4rsed with the argument


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## Ashcrapper (Jul 3, 2008)

Fatstuff said:


> Can I just congratulate Athenian on handling himself quite well in this situation. IMO he is spot on and has chose his views from a purely realistic view unclouded by emotions.
> 
> I'm not saying I can or could take that view myself whatsoever if I could get hold of anyone who hurt me or my family but IMO he is looking at the bigger picture and has put his point forward in a calm manner even when 3 or 4 people were on his case, some of which were not even attacking his opinion but attacking himself personally!
> 
> Reps anyway


yeh, the way he resorted to saying people where lying when it didnt fit in with his unclouded by emotional ideals was magnificent.


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## Huntingground (Jan 10, 2010)

UKM : Putting Pompous Pr1cks in their Place 

Athenian, nice bit of alliteration for you there. Quick, get the dictionary :lol:


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## Fatstuff (Mar 2, 2010)

Ashcrapper said:


> yeh, the way he resorted to saying people where lying when it didnt fit in with his unclouded by emotional ideals was magnificent.


Bully


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## Ashcrapper (Jul 3, 2008)

Fatstuff said:


> Bully


yep


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## lukeee (Aug 17, 2009)

Ashcrapper said:


> yep


Hi Ash


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## Ashcrapper (Jul 3, 2008)

lukeee said:


> Hi Ash


hello lukeee, how is the dog?


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## latblaster (Oct 26, 2013)

@Athenian

You said that the majority of crims come from a lower class background, or word to that effect. But these are the people who are actually caught.

I postulate that there is prolly alot more white collar crime that occurs, but as perhaps many of us suspect, they don't get caught.


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## dusher (Jul 8, 2008)

String the cnuts up I say.



latblaster said:


> @Athenian
> 
> You said that the majority of crims come from a lower class background, or word to that effect. But these are the people who are actually caught.
> 
> I postulate that there is prolly alot more white collar crime that occurs, but as perhaps many of us suspect, they don't get caught.


I doubt that, but I do agree a lot will occur that we don't know about. Your right in saying its the idiots that get caught.


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## latblaster (Oct 26, 2013)

But just look at all the effing politicians who fiddled their expenses, yea I know we all do this, but that's just one example that's come to light.


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## Athenian (Sep 19, 2012)

I omitted to qualify that as being a statement regarding violent offenses, ex muggings at knife point etc.

Of course white collar crime is rampant, and how could it not be? The sentences handed out for those are in most cases just as laughable. But is that really any surprise given the socio-economic fabric of our society and governments (either torrie, labour or coalitions)?

The people msot likely to commit white collar crimes and swindle hundreds of thousands if not millions of pounds are those who have the greatest support of and access to the legislature and judiciary, and as verified time and time again, people take care of and cover up for their own. This only further fuels the class-wars, as someone who knicks a £10,000 car is more likely to see in the isnide of a prison cell than someone who scammed £100,000 worth of pension funds from oaps.


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## latblaster (Oct 26, 2013)

Well as you're a lawyer do you know any good scams? :lol:


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## Athenian (Sep 19, 2012)

latblaster said:


> Well as you're a lawyer do you know any good scams? :lol:


Plenty, and I've only been a presocutor for 6 months, you should ehar some of the cases my colleagues have had to try.


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## latblaster (Oct 26, 2013)

Athenian said:


> Plenty, and I've only been a presocutor for 6 months, you should ehar some of the cases my colleagues have had to try.


Well tell us then!


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## Athenian (Sep 19, 2012)

They were mostly low-scale pyramid schemes and investment frauds, nothig spectacular. They usually hinge upon praying on people's greed or desperation.

Whic is another issue I wanted to raise. When ever you hear stories of fraud, most people always say things like "only idiots fall for that". But what about cases of people who have serious medical conditions and prefer to try 'alternative' medicine rather than conventional to avoid nasty stuff like daily injections, chemo etc?

If some guy comes along with a fancy-schmancy PhD in botanology and claims this wonderfull drug of his own concoction will treat your symptoms and the reason the medical associations don't allow it is because they can't afford it, then is it stupidity or desperation and wishfull thinking leads you to trust a quack?


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## Simspin (Sep 5, 2011)

Dirty lil punk scum bags, thats the way this once g8t country has gone down the pan!


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## newborn (Nov 29, 2011)

So the old guy was drunk and abusing everyone around him so im not really sympathetic at all. Not saying he deserved being stomped but if you get drunk in public and ruin other peoples days regardless of age then you deserve a slap.


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## justin case (Jul 31, 2012)

then they should have chucked a bucket of water over him or squashed a ginsters cornish pasty on his head...not drop kick him to the floor.


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## Athenian (Sep 19, 2012)

newborn said:


> So the old guy was drunk and abusing everyone around him so im not really sympathetic at all. Not saying he deserved being stompedbut...


And there's my probem with the whole thought process. People would be all for a sympathetic victim getting revenge on his attackers, but if it's someone who's a pr**k, we tend to care far less and sometimes not at all.

Unfortunately we can't pick our victims and we can't go around treating offenders differently just because of who their victim is. Of course we (should) have harsher punishments for truly innocent victims (children, rape victims etc) but that doesn't mean we can go around mob lynching their attackers anymore than we should let people off the hook for killing a rapist during a robbery/mugging by saying "so what, the guy was evil, he doesn't deserve justice".

The Law should apply to all REGARDLESS of the person commiting or suffering the crime and only differentiate based on the facts of the case as they pertain to motive and circumstances, and other mitigating factors (duress, provocation, defense of another etc).


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## lukeee (Aug 17, 2009)

Ashcrapper said:


> hello lukeee, how is the dog?


Bloody good mate thanks! Hows the cat?


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## cub (Jul 14, 2011)

Athenian said:


> Justice and revenge are not the same thing and you can either have one or the other, and when choosing, keep in mind that one man's notion of sufficient revenge doesn't always coincide with yours. I might find throwing someone in jail punishment enough for keying my car, but someone else might prefer 10 minutes alone with a baseball bat.


Completely disagree. Revenge does play a part in justice; punishments are given for past actions, in retaliation to wrongs done. If the people feel that a sentence is harsh enough it removes the incentive to private revenge. If a murderer for example is given a light sentence then that is not justice, it is an injustice.


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## Athenian (Sep 19, 2012)

cub said:


> Completely disagree. Revenge does play a part in justice; punishments are given for past actions, in retaliation to wrongs done. If the people feel that a sentence is harsh enough it removes the incentive to private revenge. If a murderer for example is given a light sentence then that is not justice, it is an injustice.


Punishment isn't about retaliation, it's about providing society with a sense of closure and moral reassurance that those who break our rules will forfeit their freedom as a consequence.

Retaliation can be against a perceived injustice, not necessarily a legally recognised one, ex a mistress tells her lover's wife and breaks up his marriage. In the eyes of the Law, a married man's indiscretions are not considered a crime, neither against the state, it's citizens or even his wife, but good luck finding a cheated on spouse to not feel the desire to rip his balls off, THAT is retaliation.

Punishment however, that the Law recognises, is her right to divorce him and claim a monetary settlement according to matrimonial law. If the relationship isn't recognised by Law, then she has no rights to punish him, she only ahs the right to leave him.

And this is were retaliation and revenge fail on virtually all conceivable levels; they are based on emotional outrage, clouded by pain and anger, and are seldomly ever appropriate to the injustice suffered.

In the same way you can't expect a man who loves his car more than a person to chose the judgement for the guy who fire-bombs it, you also can't expect a parent of a child raped or murdered to decide the fate of the rapist. They aren't thinking of punishment, they are only consumed, quite understandibly so, by rage and bloodlust.

This is why we have prison sentences. Depriving a human being's freedom and personal liberties is the harshest humane punsihment we can inflict, and I don't see any reason why any other form of punishment needs to be introduced when it has 0 effect on the causes of crime and the rate at which they are comitted.


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## lucs (Apr 8, 2011)

Here are Interpol 2001 crime statistics (rate per 100,000):

4161 - US

7736 - Germany

6941 - France

9927 - England and Wales

Please note that all three European countries have more crime than the USA.

According to Urban Audit, Liège has the highest crime rate of all European cities (EU27), with 256.13 recorded crimes per 1,000 population in 2001.

According to the International Crime victims Survey, The UK is the most crime ridden country in Europe. According to another set of figures it is Ireland.


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## lucs (Apr 8, 2011)

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1196941/The-violent-country-Europe-Britain-worse-South-Africa-U-S.html from 2009


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## lucs (Apr 8, 2011)

seems the liberal aproach has failed from 2001-2009 at least. we cant win the football but we pretty good at crime


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## Beefmeister (Sep 5, 2011)

Morons weren't hug enough as toddlers!

Why is it these plums always attack the weak! They always outnumber everyone in their gangs least make it half fair. They deserved to be raped!! :cursing:


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## cub (Jul 14, 2011)

Athenian said:


> Punishment isn't about retaliation, it's about providing society with a sense of closure and moral reassurance that those who break our rules will forfeit their freedom as a consequence.


Nope. It definitely is about retaliation. It has nothing to do with providing society with a sense of "closure", this is an entirely modern reason unheard of to those who framed our laws. It is about punishing the wrongdoer for the wrong s/he has committed. Retaliation and justice are inseparable.



Athenian said:


> Retaliation can be against a perceived injustice, not necessarily a legally recognised one, ex a mistress tells her lover's wife and breaks up his marriage. In the eyes of the Law, a married man's indiscretions are not considered a crime, neither against the state, it's citizens or even his wife, but good luck finding a cheated on spouse to not feel the desire to rip his balls off, THAT is retaliation.
> 
> Punishment however, that the Law recognises, is her right to divorce him and claim a monetary settlement according to matrimonial law. If the relationship isn't recognised by Law, then she has no rights to punish him, she only ahs the right to leave him.
> 
> And this is were retaliation and revenge fail on virtually all conceivable levels; they are based on emotional outrage, clouded by pain and anger, and are seldomly ever appropriate to the injustice suffered.


The law gives her the right because it recognises a wrong has been done by her husband and gives her an outlet for her to receive justice by granting her the right to divorce him. The law does not go all the way in doing what she wants but it does recognise she is in the right.



Athenian said:


> In the same way you can't expect a man who loves his car more than a person to chose the judgement for the guy who fire-bombs it, you also can't expect a parent of a child raped or murdered to decide the fate of the rapist. They aren't thinking of punishment, they are only consumed, quite understandibly so, by rage and bloodlust.
> 
> This is why we have prison sentences. Depriving a human being's freedom and personal liberties is the harshest humane punsihment we can inflict, and I don't see any reason why any other form of punishment needs to be introduced when it has 0 effect on the causes of crime and the rate at which they are comitted.


The parent of a murdered child definitely would be thinking of punishing the person who done it. The parent would be motivated primarily because it was their child. The legal system will be punishing it because the crime is against the law i.e. the punishment will be a reaction to this breaking of the law. Capital punishment would be the most just sentence of this sort of crime, not primarily because it may prevent similar crimes from happening but because it would be morally wrong to let someone who did a crime so heinous to live.


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## Athenian (Sep 19, 2012)

cub said:


> Nope. It definitely is about retaliation. It has nothing to do with providing society with a sense of "closure", this is an entirely modern reason unheard of to those who framed our laws. It is about punishing the wrongdoer for the wrong s/he has committed. Retaliation and justice are inseparable.


Not even close mate, sorry. The law is about maintaining order, not for people to get revenge. Those who framed our laws knew this and even in cases where they didn't provide for it, we have newer legislation being enacted and older ones being interpreted to not only be applied as to what it was meant to encopass at the time it was written, but also to apply to today's society, If this weren't the case, we'd still have people in stocks for public humilation for being unable to complete their contractual obligations to another party. The Law must be steady, but never remain still.



cub said:


> The law gives her the right because it recognises a wrong has been done by her husband and gives her an outlet for her to receive justice by granting her the right to divorce him. The law does not go all the way in doing what she wants but it does recognise she is in the right.


Wrong again mate. The Law recognises he right to receive a monetary settlement as marriage is a legal contract between the two and his infidelity is seen as breaching one of it's clauses. It's a remedy provided for breach of contract and has 0 to do with providing her with an outlet. The Law is merely recognising and enforcing her legal rights against her husband, nothing more, nothing less.

In cases of spousal battery the law will provide for a punishment under the breach of crminal offense, furtehr illustarting that a civil contract and a criminal offense are dealt with differently and carry seperate punishments. Let spouses have their way and this goes straight out the window in many/most cases, espcially those were a cheating husband lacks the financial means to 'compensate' his wife for his infidelity. Should a man incapable of paying allimony be subject to a criminal offense punishment because he cannot pay his wife?



cub said:


> The parent of a murdered child definitely would be thinking of punishing the person who done it. The parent would be motivated primarily because it was their child.


No. Punishment is about social order; you break the rules and you get locked up where you have time to think and refelct on your actions and choices and hopefully not do them again. Killing them removes any possibility of them learning as dead men don't know anything. It's purely out of anger and has nothing to do with justice.



cub said:


> The legal system will be punishing it because the crime is against the law i.e. the punishment will be a reaction to this breaking of the law.


We can agree on this, the difference is this was is defined as 'legal justice'. Moral justice is way too subjective and therefor cannot be the law of the land. A society has base-rules everyone lives and treats each other by and protect us all, even our criminals. We call these Human Rights and they are recognised internationally. Then we have domestic legislation based on a collective morality most of us can agree on and take into consideration various other factors in deciding appropriate sentences for their respective crimes.



cub said:


> Capital punishment would be the most just sentence of this sort of crime, not primarily because it may prevent similar crimes from happening but because it would be morally wrong to let someone who did a crime so heinous to live.


Not it wouldn't, it would a clear case of state sanctioned murder; a man who poses no imminent or even possible future physical threat to anyone is strapped down and killed after being arrested, charged, tried and convicted of his crime.

Just doesn't mean 'getting even'. An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind as a someone once said who advocated peaceful opposition to the British Empire and got them to leave.


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## cub (Jul 14, 2011)

Athenian said:


> Not even close mate, sorry. The law is about maintaining order, not for people to get revenge. Those who framed our laws knew this and even in cases where they didn't provide for it, we have newer legislation being enacted and older ones being interpreted to not only be applied as to what it was meant to encopass at the time it was written, but also to apply to today's society, If this weren't the case, we'd still have people in stocks for public humilation for being unable to complete their contractual obligations to another party. The Law must be steady, but never remain still.


The law maintains order by punishing the criminal instead of leaving it as a free for all. If the law did not correspond closely enough to what the people deem to be a fit punishment then there is a danger of people taking the law into their own hands. That is why revenge is an integral part of the justice system, because the law carries out the punishment of a wrong instead of a private individual. That is what civil society is, the abandonment of certain rights in return for the protection of the law.



Athenian said:


> Wrong again mate. The Law recognises he right to receive a monetary settlement as marriage is a legal contract between the two and his infidelity is seen as breaching one of it's clauses. It's a remedy provided for breach of contract and has 0 to do with providing her with an outlet. The Law is merely recognising and enforcing her legal rights against her husband, nothing more, nothing less.


Her legal rights come from it being agreed that she is in the right in a case like that.



Athenian said:


> No. Punishment is about social order; you break the rules and you get locked up where you have time to think and refelct on your actions and choices and hopefully not do them again. Killing them removes any possibility of them learning as dead men don't know anything. It's purely out of anger and has nothing to do with justice.


For most of the existence of the English legal system and within the memory of people still living murder was punishable by death, it had absolutely nothing to do with them learning what they had done in order for them to become better members of society. The law then said they should be removed from society. It was the most just outcome.



Athenian said:


> We can agree on this, the difference is this was is defined as 'legal justice'. Moral justice is way too subjective and therefor cannot be the law of the land. A society has base-rules everyone lives and treats each other by and protect us all, even our criminals. We call these Human Rights and they are recognised internationally. Then we have domestic legislation based on a collective morality most of us can agree on and take into consideration various other factors in deciding appropriate sentences for their respective crimes.


I am quite happy to live by a legal system determined by the "collective morality most of us can agree on" in cases such as the example you cited, of the child rapist or murderer. I believe the outcome of the laws based on this collective morality would result in punishments much more closer to what I am advocating than you.



Athenian said:


> Not it wouldn't, it would a clear case of state sanctioned murder; a man who poses no imminent or even possible future physical threat to anyone is strapped down and killed after being arrested, charged, tried and convicted of his crime.


After reading this I am not entirely convinced that your sympathies lie with the victim of the child rapist and/or murderer instead of the perpetrator. You seem outraged that such a person could be killed. A law passed by Parliament for the capital punishment of such people would certainly not be murder. How can a lawyer of all people believe that it would be? It would the legal punishment for that particular crime.

Any notion of "imminent or even possible future physical threat to anyone" is irrelevant. The person would be executed for what they have done, as a punishment in reaction to their offence because that would be the most just outcome.


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## Athenian (Sep 19, 2012)

cub said:


> The law maintains order by punishing the criminal instead of leaving it as a free for all. If the law did not correspond closely enough to what the people deem to be a fit punishment then there is a danger of people taking the law into their own hands. That is why revenge is an integral part of the justice system, because the law carries out the punishment of a wrong instead of a private individual. That is what civil society is, the abandonment of certain rights in return for the protection of the law.


This is all correct, save for the comment about revenge being an integral part. It isn't mate, I honeslty don't know how else to say it. As an active member of the justice system and judicial process, I can tell you revenge has nothing to do with legal justice. It might hapen to coincide in some cases, but it was certainly not taken into direct consideration when formulating an appropriate sentence for a crime. The closest you can get to any semblance of revenge is a consideration of what the people would not overthrow the government for AFTER it has regarded Human Rights.



cub said:


> Her legal rights come from it being agreed that she is in the right in a case like that.


Not really. Her rights come from the Law which recognises a legal response for her to pursue and limit it to what her husband's contractual obligation towards her entitle her to. If we were to just agree without regards to what is also fair towards the husband, she could do anything she pleased. Don't forget that in certain jurisdictions, a husband is entitled to have a divorce rulling in his favor if his wife didn't fullfil her contractual obligations towards him regarding sexual intimacy. Some have successfully argued that a wife denying her husband sex is grounds for divorce without proper/full matrimony. It's a two-way street, and the Law is directing the traffic.



cub said:


> For most of the existence of the English legal system and within the memory of people still living murder was punishable by death, it had absolutely nothing to do with them learning what they had done in order for them to become better members of society. The law then said they should be removed from society. It was the most just outcome.


And this has been long abandoned as our notion of social responsibility had grown to realize the folly in comiiting the same act upon a person for which he is put to death for. This is perhps the very definition of irony.



cub said:


> I am quite happy to live by a legal system determined by the "collective morality most of us can agree on" in cases such as the example you cited, of the child rapist or murderer. I believe the outcome of the laws based on this collective morality would result in punishments much more closer to what I am advocating than you.


You 're forgetting about Human Rights. These aren't here just for law-abiding citizens, they protect everyone and are deemed to be inalienable, regardless of the crimes a person has comitted. People screaming for blood aren't right simply by virtue of how many and how loud they scream.



cub said:


> After reading this I am not entirely convinced that your sympathies lie with the victim of the child rapist and/or murderer instead of the perpetrator. You seem outraged that such a person could be killed.


I am outraged that ANY human life can be taken, whether by capital punishment, military conscription during a time of peace or any other situation in which is serves absolutely no legitimate redeeming purpose other than to appease the most primal of human instincts. We are better than the people we imprison and we must act so, not just when it suits us but ALL the time. We kill a man and we all lose. It's pointless and wrong.



cub said:


> A law passed by Parliament for the capital punishment of such people would certainly not be murder. How can a lawyer of all people believe that it would be? It would the legal punishment for that particular crime.


Parliament's power may be absolute in theory (parliamentary supremacy technically allows for Westminster to enact laws regarding any country in the commonwealth, but good luck enforcing them), but in practicall terms it's limited by various factors, one of which in this particular case are Human Rights.

For the same reason Parliament can't enact legislation that banns red-heads from going out after sunrise (in theory it can but they'd be overturned in the ECJ), it similarly can't order the eexecution of a human being who doesn't pose any imminent physical threat.



cub said:


> Any notion of "imminent or even possible future physical threat to anyone" is irrelevant. The person would be executed for what they have done, as a punishment in reaction to their offence because that would be the most just outcome.


It's not irrelevant, it's the whole point behind why the majority of contemporary legal scholars and philosophers the world over have called for it's abolition and it's inclusion as a protection against in the Human Rights Act. Again you fail to recognise the difference between LEGAL punishment and it's limitations in terms of what you deem a MORAL punishment based on retaliation.


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## Nidge (Jan 22, 2007)

OldManRiver said:


> ffs, that thug needs a serious beating. With a sledgehammer.


He wants his skin stripping then deep frying in public.


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## lucs (Apr 8, 2011)

soft approach example http://uk.news.yahoo.com/angus-whittall--thug-who-beat-teen-with-crutches-let-off-with-warning.html


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## Athenian (Sep 19, 2012)

There's a difference between executing offenders and not punishing them at all. We are now at one end of the extreme, goign to the other end isn't the solution.

Having this kid thrown in juvie till his 18th and then in real jail till he's 23 is a good start.

These examples only enfuriate the public and lead them to opt for sentences like death based on that outrage and not based on logical reasoning.


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## Diegouru (Oct 31, 2010)

What about a tattoo on his forehead saying "im a coward"?


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