# bulking 'clean' v 'dirty'



## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

If on a bulk say consuming 500 calories over maintenance would there be any difference in eating 'clean ' foods such as chicken ,fish ,oats , rice etc compared to eating 'dirty foods such as pizzas , big macs, milk shakes etc.

So given that you eat 500 calories over maintenance and you consume same amount of calories and same protein requirements would there be any difference in body composition after the bulk . Surely if the calories over maintenance are the same the amount of muscle , fat gained would be the same . If this is the case why do people chose to eat the clean foods when the dirty foods would be much easier to consume ?


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## Frandeman (Mar 24, 2014)

On a bulk eat wtf you want and enjoy food

If you get too fat you are eating too much


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## Frandeman (Mar 24, 2014)

Getting lean it's a lot harder


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## Devil (May 31, 2016)

big vin said:


> If on a bulk say consuming 500 calories over maintenance would there be any difference in eating 'clean ' foods such as chicken ,fish ,oats , rice etc compared to eating 'dirty foods such as pizzas , big macs, milk shakes etc.
> 
> So given that you eat 500 calories over maintenance and you consume same amount of calories and same protein requirements would there be any difference in body composition after the bulk . Surely if the calories over maintenance are the same the amount of muscle , fat gained would be the same . If this is the case why do people chose to eat the clean foods when the dirty foods would be much easier to consume ?


 Because they're dumb.

Yes, exactly the same calorie surplus and same macro breakdown will provide exactly the same body composition changes.

Now, is there benefits to things like HEALTH etc (which is completely different from body composition) to eating better, "clean", nutrient dense food. Of course.

But if looking good and eating foods you enjoy is your priority, then eat what you want with the same macro/calories.


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## JohhnyC (Mar 16, 2015)

Because is bro science going back decades for people (and a few people here) to justify how hard they are and how much they sacrifice training. 

All foods have some combination of macronutients (fat carbs protein) and micronutrients (vits minerals) with an associated calorie count. It is a combination of all of these that determine how sensible or necessary (not good v bad) a food is for you. There is no delineation between clean and dirty just various pros and cons

Common sense dictates though. Traditionally " dirty foods" will be lacking in micronutrients which are still essential for a healthy system and weight lifting by delivery of nutrients to the muscles, recovery, regeneration of fibers, delivery of oxygen through the cardiovascular system, removal of waste through the lymphatic system, processing of lactic acid via the liver. Complex carbs such as whole wheat, dairy, fruits veg, nuts seeds pastas, contain energy sources that last much longer that simple carbs. This is necessary as muscles growth is primarily up to 48h after training. Same with fats. Healthy fats do wonders for a system by increasing the bodies immunity defence mechanisms, cardio system etc which is very still important for muscle growth. You need. Unsaturated and saturated fats (with reason). Trans fats are a no-no which junk food is a primary source

A diet of green veg only would be just as bad as a diet of junk fat only (maybe worse) in BB terms

Heck you could get all you cals from alcohol such as whiskey but will contain zero fats protein, fiber, salt etc.


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## SwoleTip (Jul 31, 2017)

I have an extremely fat friend trying to lose weight, everyone told him to eat clean foods and blah blah, I decided to shut up and not get involved because I didn't want to start a riot, but I was so tempted to tell them he doesn't need to eat bro foods. People don't understand the concept that a calorie is a calorie. It won't effect your body composition but it may effect your health


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

JohhnyC said:


> Because is bro science going back decades for people (and a few people here) to justify how hard they are and how much they sacrifice training.
> 
> All foods have some combination of macronutients (fat carbs protein) and micronutrients (vits minerals) with an associated calorie count. It is a combination of all of these that determine how sensible or necessary (not good v bad) a food is for you. There is no delineation between clean and dirty just various pros and cons
> 
> ...


 So you think complex carbs would provide more muscle growth than simple carbs . Most 'dirty' foods like pizza, fries chocolate are complex carbs as opposed to oats , rice which are 'clean' foods , on that basis you are saying 'clean' foods would produce more muscle growth than 'dirty' foods ?


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## G-man99 (Jul 15, 2008)

big vin said:


> So you think complex carbs would provide more muscle growth than simple carbs . Most 'dirty' foods like pizza, fries chocolate are complex carbs as opposed to oats , rice which are 'clean' foods , on that basis you are saying 'clean' foods would produce more muscle growth than 'dirty' foods ?


 I'd put it as better quality gains over actual gains


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## nWo (Mar 25, 2014)

Eating clean and eating dirty are both on opposing ends of the scale, yet both as retarded as one another. Clean eating is unnecessarily restrictive, boring and many find that they drop off the wagon in the long term and give up on maintaining a diet altogether; dirty eating means filling your body with unhealthy s**t every day, which is never ideal generally, but even worse when using steroids which also have an effect on your health markers.

Find a balance. Eat mostly good, wholesome foods, but if on a few days of the week you wanna have a few doughnuts or a pizza as one of your meals for the day out of 5+ meals, then it's not gonna hurt assuming the portion size is sensible. White bread and rice are not the devil, either.


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## JohhnyC (Mar 16, 2015)

It should be pointed out though that a calorie is not just a calorie exactly. A calorie indeed is a measure of energy in Joules but that doesn't mean the body converts it into usable energy equally. All macros fats , carbs and proteins lose some of their inherent calories through heat by the body trying to metabolize these calories into a usable energy source (called the thermogenic effect) . Protein loses much more that fats or carbs. I think around 25% of protein calories are lost through the thermogenic effect. Hence in essence if you consume 100 cals from proteins only 75cals will be utilized as an energy source by the body.

There is also the advantage that protein rich foods are much better for saiety than say carbs. You naturally control appetite with low carbs. Thats why all these poncy diets like Atkins, keto pleto weight watchers etc get so much undeserved fame. They are just dressed up low carb diets People lose weight because they simply were less hungry and thus ate less, not because anything magical was happening . They are advantageous though as even if calories are matched (high carb v low carb) you have an added advantage they are higher in protein thus the thermogenic effect is coming back into play (less usable carbs)

But for bulking carbs would be a advisable as they are easy to eat. (With fats due to high cal count)

Over to @Ultrasonic for verification as I'm old and probably forgotten most of what I read over the years :lol:


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## JohhnyC (Mar 16, 2015)

nWo said:


> *Find a balance*. Eat mostly good, wholesome foods, but if on a few days of the week you wanna have a few doughnuts or a pizza as one of your meals for the day out of 5+ meals, then it's not gonna hurt assuming the portion size is sensible. White bread and rice are not the devil, either.


 I mean essentially this is it. You need to find a diet you're happy with. I never count calories, ever, yet no issues maintaining abs . Consistency is the key.

My diet is always high carbs. I can't function on low carbs. I'd shoot up a shopping mall. Others can do it no issues

Diet should be looked at as an average intake over the week and maintaining that year in year out.

I ram two pizzas and several beers into me every Tuesday on my buy one get one free in the local posh pizza place. I barely eat until dinner time and eat a light breakfast the next day. It keeps me sane. Same going out for a meal with mates. Sod this" taking the bun" of the burger idea.

Look at big @Chelsea logs. Dude is huge and has abs. What are you 19st? He doesn't count cals I believe and his meals seem pretty normal.


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## Jordan08 (Feb 17, 2014)

From Body composition point of view, no. From health point of view, mainly digestive, Yes.


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## AestheticManlet (Jun 12, 2012)

Iifym mixture of both eat decent and add crap when you feel the need.


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## Jordan08 (Feb 17, 2014)

AestheticManlet said:


> Iifym mixture of both eat decent and add crap when you feel the need.


 Need is always there bro so one burger a day here..haha


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## sjacks (Dec 10, 2017)

big vin said:


> If on a bulk say consuming 500 calories over maintenance would there be any difference in eating 'clean ' foods such as chicken ,fish ,oats , rice etc compared to eating 'dirty foods such as pizzas , big macs, milk shakes etc.


 Yes, a big difference, could be externally visible as fat or mostly internal depending on your physiology, endocrine system functionality etc.

Burgers, pizzas and other greasy fast food contains plenty of hydrogenated vegetable fat/trans fats. You can bulk on clean food easy and the occasional burger/pizza is okay but a long term binge/bulk on fast foods will make you into a big fat greasy bastard and you'll live to regret it.

Morning by the way


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## Frandeman (Mar 24, 2014)

I like ice cream a lot


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

sjacks said:


> Yes, a big difference, could be externally visible as fat or mostly internal depending on your physiology, endocrine system functionality etc.
> 
> Burgers, pizzas and other greasy fast food contains plenty of hydrogenated vegetable fat/trans fats. You can bulk on clean food easy and the occasional burger/pizza is okay but a long term binge/bulk on fast foods will make you into a big fat greasy bastard and you'll live to regret it.
> 
> Morning by the way


 But surely if you are consuming the same amount of calories i.e 500 over maintenance on a bulk dirty food won't make you any fatter than if you was consuming clean foods . The calories are the same .


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## iamyou (Oct 29, 2012)

I'd say when you're on gear small meals often with high carb and protein seem to give better results. I used to bulk on mcdonalds and ice cream + a s**t ton of tren to keep the fat at bay. Never again. I find it easier to grow, eat a lot and stay lean on low fat as well.

It's pretty stupid to think you will gain the same amount of muscle eating s**t vs eating beef and rice + getting all your micros from food sources. I like Stan Efferding's vertical diet. Basically you have certain foods you eat everyday to get your micros in (eggs, dairy source, oranges, spinach etc) and then you build your kcal from easily digestible carb and protein sources like beef and rice. Micros, sleep/recovery, frequent meals, macro breakdown per meal all make a huge difference if you take this s**t seriously. Some of you argue that a lazy f**k eating s**t and not getting enough sleep would get the same exact body composition changes because the kcals are the same? Bitch please. There's a reason 95% of people on UK-M using gear still look like s**t.



Devil said:


> Because they're dumb.
> 
> Yes, exactly the same calorie surplus and same macro breakdown will provide exactly the same body composition changes.
> 
> ...


 Everyone advocating eating s**t should post a mandatory photo of themselves :thumb


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

iamyou said:


> I'd say when you're on gear small meals often with high carb and protein seem to give better results. I used to bulk on mcdonalds and ice cream + a s**t ton of tren to keep the fat at bay. Never again. I find it easier to grow, eat a lot and stay lean on low fat as well.
> 
> It's pretty stupid to think you will gain the same amount of muscle eating s**t vs eating beef and rice + getting all your micros from food sources. I like Stan Efferding's vertical diet. Basically you have certain foods you eat everyday to get your micros in (eggs, dairy source, oranges, spinach etc) and then you build your kcal from easily digestible carb and protein sources like beef and rice. Micros, sleep/recovery, frequent meals, macro breakdown per meal all make a huge difference if you take this s**t seriously. Some of you argue that a lazy f**k eating s**t and not getting enough sleep would get the same exact body composition changes because the kcals are the same? Bitch please. There's a reason 95% of people on UK-M using gear still look like s**t.
> 
> Everyone advocating eating s**t should post a mandatory photo of themselves :thumb


 But if the 'dirty food contains the same calories and macros why would body composition be any different ? For example a pizza topped with chicken and bacon could contain 700 calories v half a chicken with boiled rice same amount of calories and same protein , carbs , fat ratio

Why would body composition be any different ?


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

A few thoughts, in no particular order...

1) No credible coach has ever advised clients to eat a diet that is just a mix of whatever 'junk food' a client fancies to meet a daily energy and protein target.

2) Fibre is a key component of any diet due to its impact on the gut microbiome, the evidence for the significance of which is growing all the time. This includes an impact on nutrient absorption and insulin resistance, both of which could have an impact on body composition. See for example the following:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3601187/

3) When in a calorie surplus high fat diets can adversely affect insulin sensitivity, with particularly saturated fat being more of an issue as body fat levels increase.

4) Overall health can have an impact on body composition by how it affects gym performance, recovery, and the need for time off when ill.

5) For people who don't track calories, exclusively 'clean' diets when bulking tend to lead to less fat gain as it is far more likely someone will overeat on more enjoyable foods. This I think is the major reason this approach to 'bulking' was seen as better. As above though I don't think it's the only factor.

6) Polarising debates like this into all 'clean' vs all 'junk' is a totally false choice, with neither being a good idea as far as I'm concerned. Eat a broadly healthy diet, with plenty of vegetables of fruit, but don't deny yourself foods you enjoy. This doesn't just mean eating 'junk' like cakes, pizza and ice cream, but also eating what I'd consider normal meals with sauces rather than dry chicken, rice and brocolli.

7) Oh, and people who eat 'clean' during the week but then whatever they want at weekends are in practical terms not doing anything different to people who eat more flexibly as I described above 7 days per week.


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## Frandeman (Mar 24, 2014)

iamyou said:


> I'd say when you're on gear small meals often with high carb and protein seem to give better results. I used to bulk on mcdonalds and ice cream + a s**t ton of tren to keep the fat at bay. Never again. I find it easier to grow, eat a lot and stay lean on low fat as well.
> 
> It's pretty stupid to think you will gain the same amount of muscle eating s**t vs eating beef and rice + getting all your micros from food sources. I like Stan Efferding's vertical diet. Basically you have certain foods you eat everyday to get your micros in (eggs, dairy source, oranges, spinach etc) and then you build your kcal from easily digestible carb and protein sources like beef and rice. Micros, sleep/recovery, frequent meals, macro breakdown per meal all make a huge difference if you take this s**t seriously. Some of you argue that a lazy f**k eating s**t and not getting enough sleep would get the same exact body composition changes because the kcals are the same? Bitch please. There's a reason 95% of people on UK-M using gear still look like s**t.
> 
> Everyone advocating eating s**t should post a mandatory photo of themselves :thumb


 There you go

And on vermodge gear @sponge2015


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## Lifesizepenguin (Jul 25, 2016)

SwoleTip said:


> I have an extremely fat friend trying to lose weight, everyone told him to eat clean foods and blah blah, I decided to shut up and not get involved because I didn't want to start a riot, but I was so tempted to tell them he doesn't need to eat bro foods. People don't understand the concept that a calorie is a calorie. It won't effect your body composition but it may effect your health


 tbf if hes fat hes probably not healthy so clean foods for a while isnt a bad shout. but i do see what your saying.


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## sjacks (Dec 10, 2017)

big vin said:


> But surely if you are consuming the same amount of calories i.e 500 over maintenance on a bulk dirty food won't make you any fatter than if you was consuming clean foods . The calories are the same .


 Had this argument multiple times before. Here's an example;



271 calories steak 100g


295 calories burger 100g


The steak is much higher in protein and lower in fat. The cooking method employed for the steak is healthier, grilled. Little to no hydrogenated fat.


The burger is much lower in protein and higher in fat. The cooking method for the burger is usually being fried in cheap vegetable fat. Lots of hydrogenated fat.


Both food samples are very similar in their calorific values yet constantly eating burgers will make you fat whereas constantly eating steaks, not so much.


Of course this is also down to how much you eat and if you are bulking you will inevitably put some fat on: less with steak, much more with burgers.


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## Jordan08 (Feb 17, 2014)

sjacks said:


> Had this argument multiple times before. Here's an example;
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 Under caloric surplus stage, you think that extra protein from beef will be added to the muscle and extra fat from the burger would have less effect on muscle growth?.

Muscle would use the protein that is needed by them, any extra protein will be flushed down anyway. Reason being, there is no passive storage for macro protein unlike carbs and fats. Feeding more protein than required doesn't mean more muscle growth.

I am only talking from body composition point of view and not other health factors.


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## Frandeman (Mar 24, 2014)

Jordan08 said:


> Under caloric surplus stage, you think that extra protein from beef will be added to the muscle and extra fat from the burger would have less effect on muscle growth?.
> 
> Muscle would use the protein that is needed by them, any extra protein will be flushed down anyway. Reason being, there is no passive storage for macro protein unlike carbs and fats. Feeding more protein than required doesn't mean more muscle growth.
> 
> I am only talking from body composition point of view and not other health factors.


 You natty mate

On gear you would absorbed more protein 

And the meat from burgers it's no same as in a steak


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## Jordan08 (Feb 17, 2014)

Frandeman said:


> You natty mate
> 
> On gear you would absorbed more protein
> 
> And the meat from burgers it's no same as in a steak


 No studies on that but internet believes it that you need protein on AAS.


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## Devil (May 31, 2016)

iamyou said:


> I'd say when you're on gear small meals often with high carb and protein seem to give better results. I used to bulk on mcdonalds and ice cream + a s**t ton of tren to keep the fat at bay. Never again. I find it easier to grow, eat a lot and stay lean on low fat as well.
> 
> It's pretty stupid to think you will gain the same amount of muscle eating s**t vs eating beef and rice + getting all your micros from food sources. I like Stan Efferding's vertical diet. Basically you have certain foods you eat everyday to get your micros in (eggs, dairy source, oranges, spinach etc) and then you build your kcal from easily digestible carb and protein sources like beef and rice. Micros, sleep/recovery, frequent meals, macro breakdown per meal all make a huge difference if you take this s**t seriously. Some of you argue that a lazy f**k eating s**t and not getting enough sleep would get the same exact body composition changes because the kcals are the same? Bitch please. There's a reason 95% of people on UK-M using gear still look like s**t.
> 
> Everyone advocating eating s**t should post a mandatory photo of themselves :thumb


 I eat about 2500 cals a day slowly cutting. 1000-1500 is one big usual meal, like lean mince/chicken pasta with veg and some fruit etc for micros

The other 1000-1500 is literally chocolate protein bars, cereal, ice cream, sweets and pastry.

180g+ protein.

I weigh about 190-195lbs in these, and am a huge advocate on here of using silly low dosages. I've never gone above 500mg and below was 125mg test, 250mg tren and 125mg test only respectively.

I also have a cracked rib and so trained very light/restricted the last two-three months. 20 mins cardio ED. I sleep 5-6 hours a night.

My blood markers are always good. Every 3 months. BP is great. ECG etc shows heart is healthy af. What more can you want?

I literally get approached daily, talked about the gym and compliments non-stop from those that know me and random people to the point it's annoying.

So feel free to restrict yourself to those shitty diet and food choices because you're "so hardcore" and "take this s**t seriously" lmao.

Im about to have a tub of cookies and cream Halo top ice cream for breakfast with a monster and cup of tea

Now where's your pics? Seeing as you're "so serious"


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## MR RIGSBY (Jun 12, 2007)

Only problem when eating 'dirty' foods for me is it would feel like I was eating next to nowt. I'm a greedy bastard, more is better, calorie dense food is great for the 2 minutes it takes to eat but if you've just blown 1000 calories and fancy something else in an hours time the cals soon add up and you end up a big fat mess.

Just about being clever with your choices burger fries and milkshake In the evenings ok, but if you've already had a full English for your brekky and a pizza at dinner time the end result won't be pretty.


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## Frandeman (Mar 24, 2014)

Jordan08 said:


> No studies on that but internet believes it that you need protein on AAS.


 https://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/topic/298685-protein-intake-on-aascycle/


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

Devil said:


> I eat about 2500 cals a day slowly cutting. 1000-1500 is one big usual meal, like lean mince/chicken pasta with veg and some fruit etc for micros
> 
> The other 1000-1500 is literally chocolate protein bars, cereal, ice cream, sweets and pastry.
> 
> ...


 So you only have two meals a day where you fit in your total daily calorie / macro needs ?


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## Jordan08 (Feb 17, 2014)

Frandeman said:


> https://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/topic/298685-protein-intake-on-aascycle/


https://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/topic/298685-protein-intake-on-aascycle/?do=embed&comment=5656952&embedComment=5656952&embedDo=findComment


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## Jordan08 (Feb 17, 2014)

Jordan08 said:


> https://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/topic/298685-protein-intake-on-aascycle/?do=embed&comment=5656952&embedComment=5656952&embedDo=findComment


 Thread is concluding the same. No conclusive study on AAS users and more protein intake requirement.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

As there have been a few posts about cutting I'll just add that the arguments then are different to bulking, which is what I focused on above. The original question was about bulking.


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## simonboyle (Aug 5, 2013)

big vin said:


> If on a bulk say consuming 500 calories over maintenance would there be any difference in eating 'clean ' foods such as chicken ,fish ,oats , rice etc compared to eating 'dirty foods such as pizzas , big macs, milk shakes etc.
> 
> So given that you eat 500 calories over maintenance and you consume same amount of calories and same protein requirements would there be any difference in body composition after the bulk . Surely if the calories over maintenance are the same the amount of muscle , fat gained would be the same . If this is the case why do people chose to eat the clean foods when the dirty foods would be much easier to consume ?


 Yes.

Calories are not all that foods contain.

They are also our source of nutrition.

You'd feel like s**t.

You'd also not digest them as well and have blood sugar crashes and energy level issues too.

Add in things like greasy skin and the like then you'll start to see why food choices matter.

The whole "a calorie is just a calorie" is just a factual statement. It doesn't apply to real life, where other things need to be considered. We are a complex system of systems, there is no equality in foods when your body is processing them and extracting nutrients.


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## 72670 (Sep 17, 2016)

Devil said:


> I eat about 2500 cals a day slowly cutting. 1000-1500 is one big usual meal, like lean mince/chicken pasta with veg and some fruit etc for micros
> 
> The other 1000-1500 is literally chocolate protein bars, cereal, ice cream, sweets and pastry.
> 
> ...


 and how much would you attribute the way you look now to gear?


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## MR RIGSBY (Jun 12, 2007)

Devil said:


> I eat about 2500 cals a day slowly cutting. 1000-1500 is one big usual meal, like lean mince/chicken pasta with veg and some fruit etc for micros
> 
> The other 1000-1500 is literally chocolate protein bars, cereal, ice cream, sweets and pastry.
> 
> ...


 Going to try the low dose route myself for a while, ramping them up a bit of late and not worth the reward. Could be down to s**t gear but we'll see.


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## simonboyle (Aug 5, 2013)

SwoleTip said:


> I have an extremely fat friend trying to lose weight, everyone told him to eat clean foods and blah blah, I decided to shut up and not get involved because I didn't want to start a riot, but I was so tempted to tell them he doesn't need to eat bro foods. People don't understand the concept that a calorie is a calorie. It won't effect your body composition but it may effect your health


 Yeah, but stopping eating shite would be a great,start for him.

Not just about fat loss but health and being in a prime position to do things like fat loss.

You can not separate the two.

Being healthier and functioning better in every way will improve Any results.

People who are obese are also 99% of the time unhealthy, from deficiency in many nutrients vitamins and minerals to BP issues, mental issues and hormone issues (pre diabetes etc too) and most can be improved if not fixed by proper nutrition.

It's also about breaking bad habits.

So yeah, I feel it's important to eat "healthy" and that means for me limiting the shite.

But I still eat burgers and pizza and chocolate, as they are not unhealthy. I don't drink fizzy juice etc as I don't like it. But things like proce#ed foods and similar are just rat poison.

And living your life fueled by that,only is just s**t.


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## Devil (May 31, 2016)

big vin said:


> So you only have two meals a day where you fit in your total daily calorie / macro needs ?


 Yes. One big meal early evening then I just snack/eat a meal of chocolate ice cream whatever all day to hit my calories. I eat a lot late at night before bed usually. I fvcking love weetabix.

often fast until 2pm



B3NCH1 said:


> and how much would you attribute the way you look now to gear?


 Impossible to say. I had low test (literally one point above the lowest NHS reference range at 19 - same levels 65 year old men should have) and so self-administered.

I use maybe 25-30% of the doses that the majority of people use on here.

Would I look like this without gear? Of course not.

I'd say diet is 50%, training 20% and gear 30%, if you had a gun to my head.

Has low dose AAS use improved nearly every single aspect of my life quality, with very little to no side effects/repercussions - yes.



MR RIGSBY said:


> Going to try the low dose route myself for a while, ramping them up a bit of late and not worth the reward. Could be down to s**t gear but we'll see.


 The way to go imo mate. I'm 24. No need to blast 1g.

If I can't get to a top physique on a few years of sub 500mgish then you need slapping.


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## 72670 (Sep 17, 2016)

Devil said:


> Yes. One big meal early evening then I just snack/eat a meal of chocolate ice cream whatever all day to hit my calories. I eat a lot late at night before bed usually. I fvcking love weetabix.
> 
> often fast until 2pm
> 
> ...


 I am looking to get tested soon with medichecks then self administer possibly from there depending on the results.

What training split do you or have you followed?


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

Devil said:


> Yes. One big meal early evening then I just snack/eat a meal of chocolate ice cream whatever all day to hit my calories. I eat a lot late at night before bed usually. I fvcking love weetabix.
> 
> often fast until 2pm
> 
> ...


 So what about on a bulk where you need surplus calories to build muscle is the eating method the same one big evening meal and snacks through the day ?


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## Devil (May 31, 2016)

big vin said:


> So what about on a bulk where you need surplus calories to build muscle is the eating method the same one big evening meal and snacks through the day ?


 Yes it's just what enjoy. Maybe I'd go up to two meals if I struggle but I have a huge appetite and can eat plates of food in one go.

I like feeling full to the brim about to burst once a day, rather than snacking on pathetic little Tupperware box meals 6x a day.



B3NCH1 said:


> I am looking to get tested soon with medichecks then self administer possibly from there depending on the results.
> 
> What training split do you or have you followed?


 Sounds good mate.

Followed lots, from beginner full body, PPL, to proper high volume bro splits.

I feel it's important to get strength levels up to an okay level and build a base both physique and motion/form wise. After that just do whatever you want.

Last few months I train 4-6x a week. Do push pull legs and arms. Take a day off when life is busy or I'm tired.

Track and progress on one compound lift per session (push is overhead press, pull is deadlift and legs squat) then just do whatever you want.

Did 8 sets of 25-30 chest fly to finish off my push last night for example. 30 seconds rest.

Id go as far as saying this approach has given me the best gains aesthetic wise, strength is meh, but I don't really care about it anymore.


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## iamyou (Oct 29, 2012)

big vin said:


> But if the 'dirty food contains the same calories and macros why would body composition be any different ? For example a pizza topped with chicken and bacon could contain 700 calories v half a chicken with boiled rice same amount of calories and same protein , carbs , fat ratio
> 
> Why would body composition be any different ?


 I'm just saying I have tried both extremes and know which one gets me the best results. Surely the missing micronutrients etc found in real food play a role in recovery/growth just as something like sleep would. It adds up. Low fat, high carb and frequent meals seem to work the best *on gear*. That's hard to do when eating junk. Not saying I eat like a monk. Just had ice cream yesterday.

Since I opened my mouth I gotta post something. This is before starting my tren cycle this summer. Trying to maintain that bf year round. I can't mess around with candy bars or ice cream too much. The veins on bottom abs go first. I don't count calories anymore, only meals.


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## iamyou (Oct 29, 2012)

Devil said:


> So feel free to restrict yourself to those shitty diet and food choices because you're "so hardcore" and "take this s**t seriously" lmao.
> 
> Im about to have a tub of cookies and cream Halo top ice cream for breakfast with a monster and cup of tea
> 
> Now where's your pics? Seeing as you're "so serious"


 There ya go. Ice cream vs beef and rice :thumb


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## Devil (May 31, 2016)

iamyou said:


> There ya go. Ice cream vs beef and rice :thumb


 You look good mate.

Only difference between us is a) I imagine you use far far more gear and b ) have years and years more lifting under your belt (as your clearly maybe what, 30-35?). This would include years more of gear use.

Give me those factors, more gear and a decade more time lifting and building my Phsique, and there's nothing impressive/different about your physique than mine would be.

Diet would not effect it at all, is what I'm saying. Both work. It's not the variable that matters here. It's just one you get to enjoy food 1000x more and not live a restricted lifestyles


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## iamyou (Oct 29, 2012)

Devil said:


> You look good mate.
> 
> Only difference between us is a) I imagine you use far far more gear and b ) have years and years more lifting under your belt (as your clearly maybe what, 30-35?). This would include years more of gear use.
> 
> ...


 500mg test and 500mg eq on those pics. Now added 400mg of tren a. I'm 28. Maybe it would maybe it wouldn't. I want to be dry and lean every day. I had to start over from scratch 1.5-2 years ago and put on 16 kg


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## Devil (May 31, 2016)

iamyou said:


> 500mg test and 500mg eq on those pics. Now added 400mg of tren a. I'm 28. Maybe it would maybe it wouldn't. I want to be dry and lean every day. I had to start over from scratch 1.5-2 years ago and put on 16 kg


 Yes so 4-6x the gear use and an extra 4+ years of lifting.

Point proven.

End of the day do what works for you, but I'm certain if you tracked your food, macros etc properly, you could look exactly like that on way more enjoyable diet and lifestyle 

I mean I go for dinner/cocktails/beers etc a few times a week and put them all in my macros, makes no difference to progress.

Hope you still find the time to socialise etc because there's far more to life than beef and veg.

People can experiment and try for themselves.


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## iamyou (Oct 29, 2012)

Devil said:


> Yes so 4-6x the gear use and an extra 4+ years of lifting.
> 
> Point proven.
> 
> ...


 Keep looking for excuses :thumb 500mg eq and 500mg test is not 4-6x gear than 250mg tren and 125mg test.


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## Devil (May 31, 2016)

iamyou said:


> Keep looking for excuses :thumb 500mg eq and 500mg test is not 4-6x gear than 250mg tren and 125mg test.


 Excuses? I look better than 99.9% of people in everyday life, and have a fantastic balance between social, gym, work, diet/love of food, everything. Wouldn't change any of it at all.

What do i need excuses for :lol: , sounds like you're just trying to justify a boring diet and lifestyle to make yourself feel better mate!

Crack on with what you prefer and that's that!


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## Andy Dee (Jun 1, 2008)

Im choosing to eat clean. Because clean foods taste so much better and Im not a fan of feeling like sh¡t everyday by eating processed garbage. Its probably eating so much crap for years in the past that lead to my inflammatory bowel problems in the first place.

i still do have my odd junk moments though at the weekend.

And best of all eating clean is way cheaper on my wallet.


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## RexEverthing (Apr 4, 2014)

Devil said:


> I eat about 2500 cals a day slowly cutting. 1000-1500 is one big usual meal, like lean mince/chicken pasta with veg and some fruit etc for micros
> 
> The other 1000-1500 is literally chocolate protein bars, cereal, ice cream, sweets and pastry.
> 
> ...


 Teach me sensai


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## Devil (May 31, 2016)

RexEverthing said:


> Teach me sensai


 When you're ready young one


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## h3ndy (Dec 18, 2017)

andysutils said:


> Im choosing to eat clean. Because clean foods taste so much better and Im not a fan of feeling like sh¡t everyday by eating processed garbage. Its probably eating so much crap for years in the past that lead to my inflammatory bowel problems in the first place.
> 
> i still do have my odd junk moments though at the weekend.
> 
> *And best of all eating clean is way cheaper on my wallet.*


 Personally I find it the complete opposite to that, it's much more expensive to eat healthy that's why this country is full of fat fuc*kers.

Sweets, chocolate, crisps, cake and ready meals etc are a lot cheaper than fruit, veg, meat and fish etc


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## Frandeman (Mar 24, 2014)

h3ndy said:


> Personally I find it the complete opposite to that, it's much more expensive to eat healthy that's why this country is full of fat fuc*kers.
> 
> Sweets, chocolate, crisps, cake and ready meals etc are a lot cheaper than fruit, veg, meat and fish etc


 100 % right :thumb


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

h3ndy said:


> Personally I find it the complete opposite to that, it's much more expensive to eat healthy that's why this country is full of fat fuc*kers.
> 
> Sweets, chocolate, crisps, cake and ready meals etc are a lot cheaper than fruit, veg, meat and fish etc


 And when you start eating five six meals a day of meat and fish it's very expensive


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## Sen (Feb 7, 2018)

big vin said:


> But surely if you are consuming the same amount of calories i.e 500 over maintenance on a bulk dirty food won't make you any fatter than if you was consuming clean foods . The calories are the same .


 I think the macros would need to be the same also. Eating 5000 cals of mainly fat and carbs I bet you'd look much different to eating 5000 calories of a balance of all 3.


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## Sen (Feb 7, 2018)

h3ndy said:


> Personally I find it the complete opposite to that, it's much more expensive to eat healthy that's why this country is full of fat fuc*kers.
> 
> Sweets, chocolate, crisps, cake and ready meals etc are a lot cheaper than fruit, veg, meat and fish etc


 Yep. Government need to address this if they wanna slow down the spread of fat cu**s.

Adding tax to sugary drinks is bollocks. A bottle of coke is still probably cheaper than a bottle of water.


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## Andy Dee (Jun 1, 2008)

h3ndy said:


> Personally I find it the complete opposite to that, it's much more expensive to eat healthy that's why this country is full of fat fuc*kers.
> 
> Sweets, chocolate, crisps, cake and ready meals etc are a lot cheaper than fruit, veg, meat and fish etc


 No its not. The reason for that is because people have no clue how to cook even a pot noodle in this country. Veg from Aldi such as onions, peppers, leeks, courgettes, spinach and potatoes last me weeks. Even months in the fridge and cost pennies each.

This is exactly how i thought before I discovered what cooking actually was. It takes me not much longer or less to throw something together in the kitchen than it does to read the instructions on the back of a ready meal packet.

1 kilo of mince costs about 3 quid. Which is the dear part? a tin of tomatoes costs 35p. pots of herbs and spices cost about 70p each and last about 3 years. a bag of mixed peppers costs about 0.60p

I can make a chilli which would feed a family of 4 for less than a fiver lol. It takes me about 20 minutes to prepare. Excuses by fat lazy fçkers that junk food is cheaper.

I can even get meet cheaper here by simply buying in bulk from the medeena butchers up the road from me and freezing loads of it.


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## superdrol (Aug 9, 2012)

Protein is the expensive part ie meat and fish, get a good chunk from whey with semi skimmed and less from meat and fish and bills come down a fair bit...


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## Abc987 (Sep 26, 2013)

People use a dirty bulk as an excuse to eat like a pig.

I love my food and love all the bad stuff too.

Personally it's about finding a healthy balance. My meals are pretty standard, normal meals. Spag Bol, curry etc all have decent macros

i then treat myself at weekends more so on a cut as it can be rectified and will have a day of stuffing my face but even on a bulk I'll still have a takeaway and some ice cream and cake.

Bad thing is it's summer now and most weekends I'll be boozing and bbqing

Eat what you want iifym but don't use a dirty bulk as an excuse to stuff your face with mcds pizza etc every day or you will end up gaining more fat than you want


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

Abc987 said:


> People use a dirty bulk as an excuse to eat like a pig.
> 
> I love my food and love all the bad stuff too.
> 
> ...


 But you won't gain any more fat then if you was eating clean if the calories were the same


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## Sen (Feb 7, 2018)

big vin said:


> But you won't gain any more fat then if you was eating clean if the calories were the same


 Macros will make a difference imo to how you look. Eat a diet 80% fat and you won't look the same as someone who eats 80% protein.


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

big vin said:


> But you won't gain any more fat then if you was eating clean if the calories were the same





Sen said:


> Macros will make a difference imo to how you look. Eat a diet 80% fat and you won't look the same as someone who eats 80% protein.


 But if you ate 100% fat as long as your calories were under maintenance you would not put an ounce of fat on , this could also be said for eating 100% protein you would not put an ounce of muscle on if calories are below maintenance . You see you need to consume over maintenance to either put fat or muscle so macros would be irrelevant


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## Devil (May 31, 2016)

big vin said:


> But if you ate 100% fat as long as your calories were under maintenance you would not put an ounce of fat on , this could also be said for eating 100% protein you would not put an ounce of muscle on if calories are below maintenance . You see you need to consume over maintenance to either put fat or muscle so macros would be irrelevant


 You are simplyfying things a bit too much.

Yes, net calories result in weight gain/loss.

When this logic is successful applied to BB, it's usually on the basis that min protein requirements (0.8-1g per lbm) and min fat about (30g+ for most) are met.

Hit your protein. Hit your fat. Hit your calories with whatever food you want. Whether that's a deficit or surplus. Try and incorporate some nutrient dense food (about 50% is a basic easy to hit standard) and take a multi-vit to cover yourself.

That small paragraph I've put above bascially sums up how people should eat/diet in 99% of cases and yes, it's that simple. Of course people don't want you to understand that, as then they'd lose billions in marketing, products, coaching, "secret info", how to get shredded in two weeks etc etc etc


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## Jack of blades (Apr 2, 2017)

big vin said:


> If on a bulk say consuming 500 calories over maintenance would there be any difference in eating 'clean ' foods such as chicken ,fish ,oats , rice etc compared to eating 'dirty foods such as pizzas , big macs, milk shakes etc.
> 
> So given that you eat 500 calories over maintenance and you consume same amount of calories and same protein requirements would there be any difference in body composition after the bulk . Surely if the calories over maintenance are the same the amount of muscle , fat gained would be the same . If this is the case why do people chose to eat the clean foods when the dirty foods would be much easier to consume ?


 You'll get a lot of people arguing that it doesn't make any difference but from my experience I perform better with clean foods


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Jack of blades said:


> You'll get a lot of people arguing that it doesn't make any difference but from my experience I perform better with clean foods


 It really doesn't need to be one thing or the other though - it's a question of balance.

Currently waiting for my dinner to cook, which will be a pepperoni and Stilton pizza with some spinach, followed by a kiwi.


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## Abc987 (Sep 26, 2013)

big vin said:


> But you won't gain any more fat then if you was eating clean if the calories were the same


 If you wanna have a diet of eating s**t, then crack on

not after arguement, just saying my opinion is find a happy medium. Don't restrict yourself to boring dull food as it isn't necessary and don't be an out and out pig

id rather eat clean as possible with the odd treat here and there. I have done it that way for the past few years and am more than happy with my diet and the way I do things


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## simonboyle (Aug 5, 2013)

Ultrasonic said:


> A few thoughts, in no particular order...
> 
> 1) No credible coach has ever advised clients to eat a diet that is just a mix of whatever 'junk food' a client fancies to meet a daily energy and protein target.
> 
> ...


 This.

Quoting it so people read it twice.


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## simonboyle (Aug 5, 2013)

Jack of blades said:


> You'll get a lot of people arguing that it doesn't make any difference but from my experience I perform better with clean foods


 This.

Eating junk all the time will definitely make you feel worse.

We've all done it when you've over indulged and felt crappy. You're straining your body processing all the extra junk too (additives etc, they don't just evaporate)

Feeling good and performance go hand in hand.


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## Sen (Feb 7, 2018)

big vin said:


> But if you ate 100% fat as long as your calories were under maintenance you would not put an ounce of fat on , this could also be said for eating 100% protein you would not put an ounce of muscle on if calories are below maintenance . You see you need to consume over maintenance to either put fat or muscle so macros would be irrelevant


 But you said eating 500 cals surplus.

absolutely no way you'd look the same if your diet was mostly fat compared to mostly protein.


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## G-man99 (Jul 15, 2008)

big vin said:


> But if you ate 100% fat as long as your calories were under maintenance you would not put an ounce of fat on , this could also be said for eating 100% protein you would not put an ounce of muscle on if calories are below maintenance . You see you need to consume over maintenance to either put fat or muscle so macros would be irrelevant


 Macros over calories = better quality gains


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## S123 (Jun 14, 2013)

Need a balance, agree mostly with devil though, not point living a s**t life wishing you could eat x,y and z when you can just relax, eat the cals you need to eat for the day and grow or cut


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## JohhnyC (Mar 16, 2015)

Ultrasonic said:


> It really doesn't need to be one thing or the other though - it's a question of balance.
> 
> Currently waiting for my dinner to cook, which will be a pepperoni and* Stilton pizza* with some spinach, followed by a kiwi.


 Now that's just wrong :lol:


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

JohhnyC said:


> Now that's just wrong :lol:


 Wondered if someone my question that!

I usually go with Gorgonzola on pizzas but I had some Stilton so I put that on. I hadn't actually tried adding blue cheese to a pepperoni pizza before - it was fine but it's more suited to chicken, beef or just cheese and mushroom type pizzas I think. I like blue cheese though  .


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## JohhnyC (Mar 16, 2015)

Ultrasonic said:


> Wondered if someone my question that!
> 
> I usually go with Gorgonzola on pizzas but I had some Stilton so I put that on. I hadn't actually tried adding blue cheese to a pepperoni pizza before - it was fine but it's more suited to chicken, beef or just cheese and mushroom type pizzas I think. I like blue cheese though  .


 well, it's pretty standard on posh burgers so I guess why not!


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

JohhnyC said:


> well, it's pretty standard on posh burgers so I guess why not!


 Indeed, and there I'd go with Stilton over Gorgonzola. Beef and Stilton pasties are another favourite of mine  .


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## 72670 (Sep 17, 2016)

Devil said:


> Because they're dumb.
> 
> Yes, exactly the same calorie surplus and same macro breakdown will provide exactly the same body composition changes.
> 
> ...


 Do you think fat and carb macros make a difference as long as you hit your protien requirements and if so how if you eat whatever you like do you hit these macros consistenly if you are eating different things?


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## Devil (May 31, 2016)

B3NCH1 said:


> Do you think fat and carb macros make a difference as long as you hit your protien requirements and if so how if you eat whatever you like do you hit these macros consistenly if you are eating different things?


 No I don't. If they do it'll be so negligible you'll get far far better results putting that time and energy in being consistent with protein/cals and training/sleep etc.

I just go by what you prefer. I enjoy carbs so have min fat but if my food choices for that day have higher fat then so be it. Just hit protein/cals consistently


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## Jack of blades (Apr 2, 2017)

SwoleTip said:


> I have an extremely fat friend trying to lose weight, everyone told him to eat clean foods and blah blah, I decided to shut up and not get involved because I didn't want to start a riot, but I was so tempted to tell them he doesn't need to eat bro foods. People don't understand the concept that a calorie is a calorie. It won't effect your body composition but it may effect your health


 I wouldn't advice someone to eat whatever they want as long as your below calorie maintenance say your eating a whole pizza which most calories come from fat and say drinking drinks like milkshakes which contain lots of sugar you will be more hungry through out the day than if say you were eating oats clean foods which would keep you full for longer. Honestly the way people talk about nutrition is stupid these days coming from people that want to look good people that lift weights especially. It's like there was a time when people knew what to eat to gain lean muscle but these days that's been thrown out of the window.


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## Jack of blades (Apr 2, 2017)

big vin said:


> But surely if you are consuming the same amount of calories i.e 500 over maintenance on a bulk dirty food won't make you any fatter than if you was consuming clean foods . The calories are the same .


 In my experience I gain less muscle so it would be used more for fat. Which makes sense as a diet high in fat isn't really ideal for building muscle. Carbs and protein has more of an impact for building muscle than fat does


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## Jack of blades (Apr 2, 2017)

Remember you can say this and that about nutrition and not eating clean but results speaks for them selves anyone that is really impressive have a clean bulking diet Iv never seen anyone that eats whatever they want and looks really impressive. Now if your taking steroids and you look good that doesn't mean s**t almost everyone looks good taking steroids but if you looked really impressive like say rich piana and Kali muscle that takes a proper bodybuilding diet to look like that no matter if you take steroids. Look on YouTube at there diets boring as f**k but it works to be very impressive. Bodybuilding isn't easy you want fat free mass so you have to make every calorie count it's not as easy as I'll eat whatever I want as long as it hits my calorie target. Why would I want a load of sugar when I could have slow complex carbs which would give me all the energy I could ask for training and recovery. Why would I want loads of fat? Honestly fat hardly does anything for building muscle just as long that you have some for hormones not to go down. Having more fat won't make your testosterone go up. Just look up old school bodybuilding diets. There's a reason why most natural bodybuilders today look like s**t. Now if your saying well I eat what ever I want as long as I got my calories and protein I still look lean and have some muscle, well do you atleast have almost 18 inch arms steroid free? Ask your self that. If your taking steroids do you have 19+ arms? If you do with a s**t diet it's because you have insane genetics


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Jack of blades said:


> Remember you can say this and that about nutrition and not eating clean but results speaks for them selves anyone that is really impressive have a clean bulking diet Iv never seen anyone that eats whatever they want and looks really impressive. Now if your taking steroids and you look good that doesn't mean s**t almost everyone looks good taking steroids but if you looked really impressive like say rich piana and Kali muscle that takes a proper bodybuilding diet to look like that no matter if you take steroids. Look on YouTube at there diets boring as f**k but it works to be very impressive. Bodybuilding isn't easy you want fat free mass so you have to make every calorie count it's not as easy as I'll eat whatever I want as long as it hits my calorie target. Why would I want a load of sugar when I could have slow complex carbs which would give me all the energy I could ask for training and recovery. Why would I want loads of fat? Honestly fat hardly does anything for building muscle just as long that you have some for hormones not to go down. Having more fat won't make your testosterone go up. Just look up old school bodybuilding diets. There's a reason why most natural bodybuilders today look like s**t. Now if your saying well I eat what ever I want as long as I got my calories and protein I still look lean and have some muscle, well do you atleast have almost 18 inch arms steroid free? Ask your self that. If your taking steroids do you have 19+ arms? If you do with a s**t diet it's because you have insane genetics


 I'll just make a few comments but this is in the context of my earlier long post. In particular I'll just reiterate that this doesn't need to be a choice between all junk or all 'clean foods'. I agree with you that no-one should eat just junk!

Regarding testosterone you're right that this doesn't keep going up as the percentage of calories from fat increases, as carbs have an effect on testosterone levels too. Something like 25% of calories from fat is around where testosterone levels peak I think (with the mix of types of fat having an impact too). However, the current evidence is that the small differences to testosterone levels we're talking about here don't make any significant difference for gaining muscle and so this probably isn't worth worrying about.

You're right there is a limit to how much fat the body needs for purely functional reasons, but the same is also true of carbs (as in once glycogen stores are topped off). Beyond these points both carbs and fats are simply used as energy sources for all the processes going on in the body, and the body can and does use both macronutrients for this. As such I don't think it's fair to argue fats are any more pointless than carbs in this context.

In terms of why anyone would want to eat simple carbs, one valid reason is if it helps people eat calories they need but would otherwise struggle to consume. The same applies to increasing fats actually. Just making food more enjoyable is another totally valid reason as far as I'm concerned, and most days I'll have glucose in my porridge, along with regular sugar in things like cakes.

If someone finds their training improves on higher carbs then this is obviously a very good reason to do this. Similarly if someone gets very bloated on higher carbs then reducing carbs and increasing fats is probably a good idea.


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)




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## S123 (Jun 14, 2013)

give the same woman on the left 6 bottles of water and its all good


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