# Lat pulldowns or Chin ups



## Rhys_E (Jun 17, 2010)

Hi, I am currently doing a routine that's very similar to starting strength. My routine consists of:

Workout A: Squats 3x5

Bench press 3x5

Deadlifts 1x5

Chin ups 2x6-7

Workout B: Squats 3x5

Overhead press 3x5

Bent over rows 3x5

Weighted dips 2x8

I do this alternating workout 3 times a week. The problem I've been having recently is that I have started to stall and am struggling to progress with the chin ups, especially as my deadlift increases. Would it be ok to subsitite chin ups for lat pulldowns, as I feel that I can continue to add weight to my pulldowns, or should i change chin ups to 3x5 and try to do the weighted as I get stronger?

Is there anything else you would add/change about the routine? My goal at the moment is to get a lot stronger before moving onto a more bodybuilding style routine like legs/push/pull in the future.


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## Neil R (Oct 29, 2006)

Why not do the chin ups before the deadlifts?


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## justheretosnoop (Jun 15, 2012)

Agree with Neil, I also do my pull-ups first. I also find a great way to boost strength is to add in some negatives on the final set - i.e. get out as many as you can normally then either have your spot boost you back up or jump up yourself then do the negative part as slooooooooowly as physically possible. You'll likely only get a couple out, 3 at best but within 2-3 weeks you should notice a diff.


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## Brockyboy (Oct 17, 2010)

I do pull ups at the end of my routine I'll only manage 7 or 8

but if I did them first I'd get at least double.

I don't see pull ups as a lat builder it more hits the teres muscle for me

for lats I do d-handle pulldown pulling the handle right down to my abs/lower chest

that's hits the spot good and proper!


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## crazycal1 (Sep 21, 2005)

3x a week full body is catching up with you.

take extra rest days.

you cant also gain on every exercise at once forever.

as my squats and deads get heavier-i train them back to back, ive had to back off deadlift poundages.

i cant even contemplate chins after deads now, gotta be a pulldown.

you have 100% of effort for any given workout and as you get stronger you will use more of a % in your first lifts.

you cant magic effort out of thin air assuming your diet and REST is in order.

adrenaline and being totally in the zone are other tools at your disposal but once youre giving everything youve got, you have to back off poundages.

you cant specialize on the whole body at once.

also training your bod 3x a week without gear is unlikely to help the situation.

if in doubt take an extra days rest.. then tell me you didnt train harder :wink:


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## bornagainmeathead (Nov 26, 2011)

Dude speaks the truth :thumb


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## Rhys_E (Jun 17, 2010)

Thanks everyone for the replies. I don't feel that lifting 3 days a week is catching up with me yet, as I started all lifts on 50% of my 5 rep max and am only 5 weeks into the routine now. All the other lifts seem pretty easy at the moment, except for chin ups. Maybe I'm stalling because I couldn't use 50% of my 5 rep max on chin ups because they are a bodyweight excersise, and had to start at 2x3 chin ups? I have always been close to lifting to failure on chin ups.

Doing chin ups straight after squatting would probably see me progressing again, or maybe i'll just do lat pulldowns after deadlifts and start off at a weight I can do comfortably 2x8 and then consistently add weight every workout?


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## Tom84 (Dec 12, 2005)

I genuinely wouldn't worry about it.

I focus on progression in 4 lifts - squats, deads, bench and mili press. After that I honestly don't care or even count. My other lifts have probably been dragged up to a reasonably similar percentage.

For example dips - I used to do bodyweight dips for 15, 8 years ago. I now do bodyweight (which is 40 pounds heavier) + 50kg for 12. I've never prioritised them. You can argue about form if you like but my form was the same on BW's for 15 as is now. I've never got psyched up out of my mind doing them, never rested more particularly before doing them - most of the time they are either second or 5th in my workout. If they are 5th (as an exercise) they are lighter and it doesn't bother me. I have a very meticulous point of view to most things but physiology is much less specific a science than dietetics. Almost any program will work if done correctly.

Focus on core progression for god sake don't rest more so you get an extra rep in your 4th exercise.

Also your recovery is dictated entirely by the quality of your rest and nutrition. During rest periods I don't need to tell you to sleep but try to keep mildly active.

Your diet will be the biggest constiuent of the totality of your muscle building though. The amount of muscle you build will be directly correlative with the amount and quality of micronutrients and amino acids you ingest (given a few other more complex factors). To oversimplify training breaks down muscle, but without the correct nutrition you won't see optimal repair. Why bust your ass in the gym to **** up your tissue growth and strength via not actually having the nutrients to perform the job.

So I'd suggest you check out Andy's programme in the naturals section. Its got great diet and training advice, though it would represent an increase in training days.


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## Tom84 (Dec 12, 2005)

http://www.musclechat.co.uk/natural-bodybuilding-natural-olympia-no-2-andrew-chappell/37183-muscle-up-power-bodybuilding-program.html


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## Rhys_E (Jun 17, 2010)

Thanks for that Parky. I'll just make sure that i'm progressing on the main 4 lifts and not worry too much about other stuff. That routine by Andy looks good, and the info about the diet. Once I stop gaining on my current routine I'll probably move on to do the routine that Andy has written out.


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## crazycal1 (Sep 21, 2005)

lol :becky:


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## justheretosnoop (Jun 15, 2012)

As you may have gathered Barrells, you will always find a difference in opinion on any board!!

My advice would be, do what works for YOU. We're all very different bla bla so it can be a case of trial and error over a long ish period. If what you're doing now is working, stick with it and adapt/tweak appropriately as/when needed.

As can happen, it would seem we've gone miles off topic anyway so to reiterate my original answer: stick with the pull-ups but add in some super slow negs at the end of your final set.

Welcome to MC by the way!!


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## AChappell (Jun 1, 2011)

Both Parky and Cal make good points.

Like Cal says, I think you'll struggle to continue to gain poundage on your squats and deadlifts eventually with that program, unless you alter your training intensity from one workout to the next. I.e a plan that might look like this: 60%, 70%, 80%, 90%, 65%, 75%, 85%, 95%, 70%, 80%, 90%, 100%. So that's 3 sessions per week 60% x 5 all exercise and so on. This would allow for a specific de-loading phase, while still doing the core lifts. A strength program usually has a shelf life of around 6 to 8 weeks before you plateau so you might want to move onto something like that once you've been at it a little longer, this should allow you to get a little more life out of that program and keep improving on those core lifts before moving onto a different plan.

I train with asimilar approach to Parky though, As long as my core lifts go up, I'm not bothered about the other lifts, I just consider them collateral! Although all your lifts are more or less core lifts, but I wouldn't worry about losing a rep or two in the last exercise. Sticking it before deadlifts would probably help you hit your target though, I'd consider making it my first lift though. BW pull ups can be a great way to warm up.


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## Rhys_E (Jun 17, 2010)

Really appreciate the feedback guys. I see what you mean Dorsey about difference of opinion! On one hand I've got Cal telling me to drop back to 2 days a week and Parky telling me to train 4 days a week!! Both of which are probabaly a hell of a lot more knowledgeable than me when it comes to training! Almost enough to drive you to the nearest "health club" and just 'tone up' with bicep curls!! Haha :lol:

Did chin ups straight after squats tonight and managed 2x8 easy. Well pleased! Will be looking to do them weighted next session.

Andy-my plan is to carry on as I am untill I come close to failure on different excersises and then de-load by 10-15% and work back up hoping to progress. Once I reach a plateu doing this I will be looking to alter my training intensity by working at specific percentages as you have mentioned.

Again, thanks for all the advice!


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## crazycal1 (Sep 21, 2005)

not sure i said train 2x a week but i understand why you`d conclude that..


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## justheretosnoop (Jun 15, 2012)

I'd say you're bang on the money with the direction you're heading in anyway fella so just keep at it.

Well done with the chins by the way, being fresh as a daisy for them makes the world of difference!


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