# oil chart



## Peg (Feb 9, 2006)

Here is a break down of oils. We want the essential fatty acids of omega 3s and 6s mostly in our diets.


----------



## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

I have been looking for a chart like this for years.

Anyone notice the saturated fat in olive oil?

I heard along time ago that beef tallow has one of the best ratio's of fat that you can eat. Notice the low percentage of Omega 6's there.

Crazy thing is I heard lard is great to cook with (similar to tallow), holds up the best as heat can turn some fats into trans fats (not good).

Most people think butter is all saturated fat too, just like people also think olive oil has no saturated fats either.

Great chart Peg.


----------



## Peg (Feb 9, 2006)

Butter is my cheat fat.

It's just so good with garlic on a piece of whole wheat bread toasted.

They do have a new "butter" out called Smart Choice that tastes very similar to butter and does not create the free radicals that margarines do.

I did like that post you had on butter Hackskii.

You should make that a sticky.


----------



## Captain Hero (Jun 13, 2004)

Nice post! Yo Hacks, Saturated fats are what help create the hormones in our bods right like Testosterone? Would that mean that adding something higher in saturated fats would help to make your body more anabolic?


----------



## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Cap said:


> Nice post! Yo Hacks, Saturated fats are what help create the hormones in our bods right like Testosterone? Would that mean that adding something higher in saturated fats would help to make your body more anabolic?


Nah, it think it is more like those defficient in saturated fats or a low fat diet can have lower test levels.

It seems to me that carnavores have leaner more muscular bodies.


----------



## Jimmy1 (Aug 14, 2003)

anyone object to sticking this thread?


----------



## Captain Hero (Jun 13, 2004)

Jimmy said:


> anyone object to sticking this thread?


Nope! Stick it bro!


----------



## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Sounds good to me.


----------



## BIG-UNC (Feb 27, 2006)

me too!

would i be right in saying the better ones are safflower & flaxseed?

they have the best ratios of omega 3 & 6


----------



## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Most people get too much Omega 6 in the diet so the only fat I would replace is the Omega 3 and that is in the form of fish oils.

So to bring better in line with 3 to 6's then the ratio is more like 1/1 to 1/4 3 to 6 fatty acids.


----------



## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

great chart Peg you are definitely a asset to the board...


----------



## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

I have seen many charts but none are so well broken down and easy to read.

I have been looking for a chart like this for 2 years.

I even have been taking notes on fats on the ratio's of fats but now I can toss my notes.


----------



## Peg (Feb 9, 2006)

Fish oil caps are probably the easiest way to get the omega 3s that we need, but I do believe in the fact that the body needs variety or else only one thing in nature would have the omega 3s.

I like flax seed oil as I use it for cold marinades, vinegarettes, protein drink.

I love to sprinkle flax seeds in my salads, on my oats, in my cookies (biscuits for you blokes) on my vegies or anything that a slight crunchy texture is desired and welcomed.

BUT, I do take my fish oil caps every day on Hackskii's recommendation and because it's easier than cooking fish!!! LOL! I really should eat more fish.

Omega 3s are predominate in the following fish.


----------



## Captain Hero (Jun 13, 2004)

Peg said:


> Fish oil caps are probably the easiest way to get the omega 3s that we need, but I do believe in the fact that the body needs variety or else only one thing in nature would have the omega 3s.
> 
> I like flax seed oil as I use it for cold marinades, vinegarettes, protein drink.
> 
> ...


I eat salmon every day and get 6 fish oils caps too 

I also add some extra virgin olive oil to most of my meals


----------



## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

You damn right the body needs variety, this is another reason I need to get a girlfriend on the side. 

I dont think flax stackes up to fish oils and is more expensive. Seems it takes ALA to convert flax to Omega 3, the fatty acid profile of Omega 3's are far inferior to fish oils.


----------



## Peg (Feb 9, 2006)

Not contesting that, Hackskii.

I'm just saying to use both in the diet.

fish oil and flax oil comparison for the charts.

flax seeds benefits.

Try some salmon for dinner for your fish oils. 

and for fish oil:

*Fish oil versus flax oil *

BETHESDA, MARYLAND. There is considerable evidence that fish and fish oils are beneficial to heart health, reduce the risk of cancer, and benefit mental health. The "active" components of fish oils are eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA), a polyunsaturated fatty acid with 20 carbon atoms in its backbone, and docosahexaenoic acid (DHA), a polyunsaturated fatty acid with 22 carbon atoms. Both are members of the omega-3 group of essential fatty acids. EPA and DHA are found exclusively in marine animals; fatty fish such as herring, sardines, salmon and fresh tuna are the best sources.

Alpha-linolenic acid (ALA) is another omega-3 fatty acid found in flaxseed and flaxseed oil. ALA has 18 carbon atoms in its backbone and can be converted to EPA in the body (in the liver) by the addition of two carbon atoms. EPA, in turn, can be converted to DHA. Because the typical American diet is relatively low in fish intake ALA becomes a crucial source of the EPA and DHA required for optimum health.

Researchers at the National Institutes of Health have just completed a study designed to determine just how much ALA is actually converted to EPA in the body. Their study included eight healthy subjects who were fed a standard diet for three weeks and then given one gram of ALA labeled with an isotope tracer. The diet was beef-based in order to avoid extraneous sources of EPA and DHA. The researchers measured blood plasma concentrations of ALA, EPA and DHA 8, 24, 48, 72, 96 and 168 hours after ingestion of the labeled ALA.

The results show that only about 0.2 per cent of the ALA (2 mg) was actually converted to EPA. In contrast, about 23 per cent of the EPA was available for conversion to DHA. The researchers also noted that the half-life (the time it takes to reduce initial concentration by 50 per cent) of ALA in blood plasma was quite low at about one hour. In comparison, the half-life of EPA was 67 hours and that of DHA 20 hours.

The researchers conclude that ALA is not a viable source of EPA and DHA and cannot replace fish and fish oils in the diet. Editor's Note: According to this new data a tablespoon of flax oil would only result in the synthesis of about 30 mg of EPA - far less than the recommended daily intake of 220 mg.

Pawlosky, Robert J. Physiological compartmental analysis of alpha-linolenic acid metabolism in adult humans. Journal of Lipid Research, Vol. 42, August 2001, pp. 1257-65

Fish oils and the immune system

OXFORD, UNITED KINGDOM. Animal studies have shown that an increase in fat intake can decrease the number of natural killer (NK) cells found in the blood and spleen. NK cells are an integral part of the natural immune response to virus infections and certain types of cancer. Researchers at Oxford University now report that fish oil significantly decreases NK cell activity in healthy human subjects.

Their clinical trial involved 48 men and women aged 55 to 75 years. The participants were randomized to receive one of six supplements for 12 weeks. The supplements were all provided in the form of capsules, three of which were to be taken with each meal. The nine capsules (daily intake) contained either a total of 2 g alpha-linolenic acid, 770 mg gamma-linolenic acid (from evening primrose oil), 680 mg arachidonic acid, 720 mg docosahexaenoic acid (DHA), 720 mg eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA)+ 280 mg DHA (fish oil) or a placebo (an 80:20 mix of palm and sunflower oils). All the participants had blood samples taken four weeks before start of supplementation, immediately before start of supplementation, and then every four weeks during the trial as well as after a four-week washout period. The researchers found no changes in killer cell activity except in the group taking fish oil. Here they observed an average decline of 20 per cent after 8 weeks and 48 per cent after 12 weeks. The decline was completely reversed after the washout period. The fact that no decline was observed with pure DHA strongly suggests that EPA was responsible. The researchers conclude that an excessive EPA intake could have adverse effects for people at risk of viral infections and some cancers. Editor's Note: The British researchers' speculation about fish oils perhaps affecting the effectiveness of NK cells in killing cancer cells is at odds with the results of many other studies. There are at least a dozen studies that show a clear protective effect of fish or fish oil against breast, colon, and prostate cancer. NOTE: This study was partly funded by Unilever. [54 references]

Thies, Frank, et al. Dietary supplementation with eicosapentaenoic acid, but not with other long-chain n-3 or n-6 polyunsaturated fatty acids, decreases natural killer cell activity in healthy subjects aged >55 years. American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, Vol. 73, March 2001, pp. 539-48

Alpha-linolenic acid and DHA

GRONINGEN, THE NETHERLANDS. Alpha-linolenic acid (ALA) and docosahexaenoic acid (DHA) have both been shown to reduce the risk of heart disease. Studies using isotopically labeled ALA have shown that it can be converted by the body to EPA (eicosapentaenoic acid) and DHA, but how significant this conversion is in actual practice is not known.

Dutch researchers now report that the conversion of ALA to DHA in vegans (strict vegetarians) is negligible and that supplementation with ALA does not increase DHA levels significantly. Their trial included 6 healthy men and 3 healthy women between the ages of 20 and 60 years who were adhering to a vegan diet (no meat, fish, eggs or dairy products). The participants were randomized to receive either 2.01 grams of ALA (4 ml linseed [flax] oil) daily or 1.17 grams of gamma-linolenic acid (6 ml borage oil) daily for a four-week period. This was followed by a four-week period during which all the participants received both supplements. Blood samples were taken and analyzed for fatty acid content at the start of the trial and after four and eight weeks. Neither the linseed oil nor the borage oil by themselves increased blood levels of EPA or DHA, but their combination did produce a statistically significant, but nevertheless negligible, increase in EPA and DHA in the cholesterol and triglyceride fractions of the blood. The researchers point out that a clinical trial involving omnivores (meat and fish eaters) gave similar results and conclude that ALA supplementation is not effective in increasing DHA levels significantly.

Fokkema, M.R., et al. Short-term supplementation of low-dose gamma-linolenic acid (GLA), alpha- linolenic acid (ALA), or GLA plus ALA does not augment LCP omega-3 status of Dutch vegans to an appreciable extent. Prostaglandins, Leukotrienes and Essential Fatty Acids, Vol. 63, November 2000, pp. 287-92

Polyunsaturated fatty acids are safe

OSLO, NORWAY. Polyunsaturated fatty acids (PUFAs) of the n-6 and n-3 configurations cannot be synthesized by humans and must be obtained from the diet. The most common PUFAs are linoleic acid, linolenic acid, and eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA) and docosahexaenoic acid (DHA) found in fish oils. Linoleic acid is an n-6 configuration while linolenic acid, EPA and DHA are of the n-3 configuration. Because of the unsaturated nature (multiple double bonds) of PUFAs they are prone to oxidation which makes them rancid and potential initiators of chain reactions which can lead to oxidation of fat and cholesterol molecules in the body. This so-called lipid peroxidation reaction is believed to be implicated in atherosclerosis, cancer and inflammation.

Dr. Jan Eritsland, a cardiologist at the Ulleval University Hospital, has just released a major study dealing with the safety of n-3 and n-6 PUFAs. Based on numerous reports published in the medical literature Dr. Eritsland concludes that a high intake of n-3 PUFAs reduces the risk for cardiovascular disease and heart attack and is entirely safe at least up to a level corresponding to 10% of the daily calorie intake. He does caution though that the intake of dietary antioxidants (especially vitamin E) needs to be increased if the PUFA intake is increased. Supplementation with 4 grams/day of highly concentrated fish oil (containing 3.4 g of EPA and DHA) was found to lower triglyceride levels, but had no effect on cholesterol levels or glycemic control (plasma glucose and insulin levels). Although fish oils are known to reduce the tendency of blood to aggregate (clot) a recent major trial showed no difference in bleeding episodes among heart disease patients supplementing with 2 to 5 grams/day of fish oils and the controls. This held true even if the patients were also taking warfarin or aspirin. PUFAs of the n-3 family may help prevent cancer and there is no evidence at all that they promote it. There is, however, some limited evidence that n-6 PUFAs (linoleic acid) may indeed be involved in the initiation or promotion of cancer. Most experts recommend that the intake of linoleic acid not exceed 10% of daily calorie intake. [73 references]

Eritsland, Jan. Safety considerations of polyunsaturated fatty acids. American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, Vol. 71 (suppl), January 2000, pp. 197S-201S

Fish oils are vital to your health

PORTLAND, OREGON. Research carried out over the past 20 years has clearly shown that omega-3 fatty acids such as DHA (docosahexaenoic acid) and EPA (eicosapentaenoic acid) are essential elements in human nutrition. The primary source of DHA and EPA is fatty fish and oils from the tissues of such fish. DHA is a vital component of the phospholipids in cell membranes throughout the body, but is particularly abundant in the brain, retina, and sperm. Fish oils either from whole fish or in the form of supplements have been found to aid in preventing or ameliorating coronary heart disease, stroke, lupus, nephropathy (kidney disorders), Crohn's disease, breast cancer, prostate cancer, colon cancer, hypertension, and rheumatoid arthritis. Fish oils have been found particularly effective in preventing arrhythmias and sudden death from cardiac arrest. Several studies have shown that people who eat fish once or more each week can reduce their risk of sudden cardiac death by 50-70 per cent. EPA has been found to inhibit blood clotting and EPA and DHA contained in fish oils inhibit the development of atherosclerosis. Fish oil supplementation also significantly lowers overall triglyceride and cholesterol levels without affecting the level of HDL ("good" cholesterol).

Recent research has shown that the consumption of high fat meals can initiate the development of atherosclerotic deposits. This effect can be substantially reduced by taking fish oil prior to eating such meals. Omega-3 fatty acids are essential to fetal development and a deficiency of DHA during gestation can lead to visual impairment and perhaps, lower intelligence quotients.

In summary, omega-3 fatty acids and in particular, DHA and EPA from fish oils, are essential for human development and in the prevention and amelioration of many common disorders. [38 references]

Connor, William E. Importance of n-3 fatty acids in health and disease. American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, Vol. 71 (suppl), January 2000, pp. 171S-75S

Benefits of essential fatty acids

HONOLULU, HAWAII. Dr. Joseph Pepping, a consulting pharmacist at the Kaiser Permanente, provides a comprehensive review of the many benefits of omega-3 fatty acids and their derivatives. He cites evidence that eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA) and docosahexaenoic acid (DHA) which are found in fish oils are helpful in the prevention and treatment of cardiovascular disease, arrhythmias, diabetes, breast cancer, and arthritis. While EPA is readily synthesized in the body from alpha-linolenic acid (found in flaxseed oil) Dr. Pepping states that the synthesis of DHA is much more difficult and that DHA must be obtained directly from fish, certain algae or green, leafy vegetables. He also points out that the body's optimal balance between omega-6 (linoleic) and omega-3 (linolenic) fatty acids is a 2:1 to 4:1 ratio. Unfortunately, the typical Western diet contains these acids in ratios of 20:1 to 25:1. An excess of omega-6 fatty acids can lead to formation of blood clots, allergic and inflammatory disorders, and the accelerated growth of certain cancer cells. Dr. Pepping recommends two servings of cold-water fish (e.g. salmon, mackerel or herring) per week, 2-4 grams of fish oil capsules per day or 15-30 ml of flaxseed oil per day as a preventive measure. He points out that it is important to add 200 IU of vitamin E to the daily diet if supplementing with fish oils. He also advises caution regarding fish oil supplementation in patients taking warfarin, heparin, low-molecular weight heparin, ticlopidine or clopidogrel.

Pepping, Joseph. Omega-3 essential fatty acids. American Journal of Health-System Pharmacy, Vol. 56, April 15, 1999, pp. 719-24

Your brain needs DHA

NEW YORK, NY. Dr. Barbara Levine, Professor of Nutrition in Medicine at Cornell University, sounds the alarm concerning a totally inadequate intake of DHA (docosahexaenoic acid) by most Americans. DHA is the building block of human brain tissue and is particularly abundant in the grey matter of the brain and the retina. Low levels of DHA have recently been associated with depression, memory loss, dementia, and visual problems. DHA is particularly important for fetuses and infants; the DHA content of the infant's brain triples during the first three months of life. Optimal levels of DHA are therefore crucial for pregnant and lactating mothers. Unfortunately, the average DHA content of breast milk in the United States is the lowest in the world, most likely because Americans eat comparatively little fish. Making matters worse is the fact that the United States is the only country in the world where infant formulas are not fortified with DHA. This despite a 1995 recommendation by the World Health Organization that all baby formulas should provide 40 mg of DHA per kilogram of infant body weight. Dr. Levine believes that postpartum depression, attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD), and low IQs are all linked to the dismally low DHA intake common in the United States. Dr. Levine also points out that low DHA levels have been linked to low brain serotonin levels which again are connected to an increased tendency to depression, suicide, and violence. DHA is abundant in marine phytoplankton and cold-water fish and nutritionists now recommend that people consume two to three servings of fish every week to maintain DHA levels. If this is not possible, Dr. Levine suggests supplementing with 100 mg/day of DHA.

Levine, Barbara S. Most frequently asked questions about DHA. Nutrition Today, Vol. 32, November/December 1997, pp. 248-49

Health benefits of fish oils

SANTIAGO, CHILE. Fish oils are excellent sources of EPA (eicosapentaenoic acid) and DHA (docosahexaenoic acid). EPA and DHA in turn are important components of cell membranes and as such play a vital role in overall health. Studies have shown that Greenland Eskimos, who have a very high intake of fish oils, have a very low incidence of heart attacks, asthma, diabetes, psoriasis, and allergies. A Dutch study found that middle-aged men who ate as little as 30 grams of fish per day (average) reduced heart disease mortality by 50 per cent. A study at the Harvard Medical School concluded that men who eat fish have a 26 per cent lower risk of death from coronary artery disease than men who do not eat fish. Other studies have shown that an adequate DHA supply is essential for normal eye and brain development in infants and children. Fish oils are found in high concentrations in herrings, sardines and anchovies, in medium concentrations in salmon, and in somewhat lower concentrations in sole, halibut, cod and shellfish. Fish oils have demonstrable benefits in the prevention and treatment of cardiovascular disease; they reduce blood pressure and triglycerides, modify platelet aggregation, and minimize inflammatory responses. There is anecdotal evidence that fish oils may be beneficial in the treatment of migraine headaches, asthma, and psoriasis. Cell membranes rich in polyunsaturated fatty acids such as EPA and DHA are, however, more susceptible to peroxidation by free radical reactions. This may severely affect their structure and function unless precautions are taken to ensure that the free radicals are neutralized by lipid-soluble antioxidants. Research has shown that people taking fish oil supplements also need to increase their intake of vitamin E.

Uauy-Dagach, Ricardo and Valenzuela, Alfonso. Marine oils: the health benefits of n-3 fatty acids. Nutrition Reviews, Vol. 54, November 1996, pp. S102-S108

Role of fish oils in health and disease

WASHINGTON, DC. Dr. Artemis Simopoulos of the Center for Genetics, Nutrition and Health has just released a major, ground-breaking study concerning fish oils and their role in human health. Dr. Simopoulos' 25-page report contains 211 references and is truly a gold mine of information about omega- 3 fatty acids and in particular the polyunsaturated fatty acids, eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA) and docosahexaenoic acid (DHA), found in fish oils.

Dr. Simopoulos points out that omega-3 polyunsaturated fatty acids (PUFAs) are essential for human health, but that their intake has gradually declined over the years. It is believed that man evolved on a diet with a ratio of omega-6 to omega-3 PUFAs of about 1:1. Today this ratio is more like 10:1 and in some societies is approaching 25:1. A relative over-abundance of omega-6 PUFAs has been implicated in excessive blood clotting, allergic and inflammatory disorders, and certain cancers. An adequate intake of omega-3 PUFAs, on the other hand, has been linked to improved cardiovascular health. A recent study concluded that a daily intake of 500 to 1000 mg of long chain omega-3 PUFAs reduces the risk of cardiovascular death in middle-aged American men by about 40%. Other studies have shown that although fish oils help prevent undesirable blood clotting reactions they do not increase bleeding time and are quite safe even for people scheduled for major surgery. Animal studies have found that fish oil supplementation markedly reduces the risk of fatal arrhythmias. Fish oils have also been found beneficial in preventing or treating hypertension, arthritis, psoriasis, ulcerative colitis, cancer, and certain diabetes- related complications. EPA and DHA are both essential for pregnant mothers and infants and a deficiency can retard the development of the brain and retina.

It is estimated that the optimal daily intake of EPA and DHA (total) is about 300 to 400 mg/day. The current average intake in the United States is only 50 mg EPA and 80 mg DHA per person per day indicating a massive deficiency in the American diet. Dr. Simopoulos points out that the Canadian Ministry of Health's guidelines for fatty acid intake recommends a daily intake of 1000 to 1800 mg of omega-3 PUFAs.



> She cautions that fish oil supplements should always be stabilized with adequate amounts of vitamin E in order to prevent oxidation leading to rancidity. [211 references]


Keep all oils in cool dry place for storage to prevent the oxidation which causes rancidity.

Simopoulos, Artemis. Omega-3 fatty acids in health and disease and in growth and development. American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, Vol. 54, 1991, pp. 438-63

Since we are talking about different oils, I also thought I'd put this post *from TKD about cod liver oil * that he wrote on the squat post.



TDK said:


> I'd take fish oil and flax seed oil caps instead of codliver caps, as the codliver caps have vitamins A, D & E, so it limits the amount of Omega 3 you can consume(this is what helps the joints), as you do need a fair bit, around 10 fish oil caps a day. If you took 10 codliver oil caps you would be heavily overdosing in the vitamins, as they are fat soluble. So go get some flax seed oil and fish oil caps.


Variety!!!!! Variety!!!! The body needs variety!!!



Hackskii said:


> You damn right the body needs variety, this is another reason I need to get a girlfriend on the side.


Isn't it grand the cornucopia of females that abound from which to choose. Perhaps that's the dilemma. Too many from which to choose???


----------



## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Well, I dont have a cornucopia, just a welcomed thought to distract me for a moment, like a good memory of a vacation during your busy workday. 

I really wouldnt cheat on Lynn, unless there was an oppertunity....Oh man that sounded so bad.

Ok, back on topic.

Some flax can have estrogenic effects (phyto-estrogen) on men so it would be better for women over men but then again it is more expensive, converts at a lower rate, and has an inferior Omega 3 profile.

All in all fish over flax is what I say.

I just got done reading a book on Fish oils and zone dieting. Very interesting. The high amounts of Omega 3 and immune system are in no way measure up to the lowering of triglycerides, and good heart health of fish oils.

The Eskimo's are a prime example of having too much Omega 3's. Sure they were more suseptable death by disease but they had the lowest cardiovascular disease in the world, no cavities, low incidence of depression, the list is long.

Omega 3's combat AA and AA is an inflammatory agent raising PG-2. Eating meat for instance can raise AA in the body and this is where the trouble lies.

I am a big meat eater and I counter the bad effects with fish oils.

The better the diet the less fish oils are required, and this even goes for eating fish.

As stated in one of your articles I believe the ratio is 1/1 to 1/4 for Omega 3 to Omega 6 fatty acid. I honestly dont think you can get to that ratio with eating flax unless you are eating alot of oil in your diet.

Again for depression (DHA) you will never get there with flax oil to combat depression.


----------



## Peg (Feb 9, 2006)

:love1: You are preaching to the choir, Scott.  :withstupi

I still like my crunchy flax seeds but I do take my fish oil caps daily as per your excellent wise advice in one of the many great posts that you write.

I do not depend on flax for the bulk of my omega 3s. I just add them in for variety, like adding a cherry on top of a hot fudge sundae....

oi... hot fudge sundae... yummy... bad Peg!!! Down girl! :nono:


----------



## niknaknok (Jun 10, 2007)

yeah deffo sticky imo


----------



## niknaknok (Jun 10, 2007)

just a quick question im not really clued up on the fats

MONOSATURATED - GOOD OR BAD OR WHAT

OMEGA 3 POLYUNSATURATED - GOOD BAD OR WHAT

OMEGA 6 POLYUNSATURATED - GOOD BAD OR WHAT

SATURATED - GOOD BAD OR WHAT

CAN ANYONE PLEASE PUT ME STRAIGHT ON THESE THANKYOU


----------



## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

niknaknok said:


> just a quick question im not really clued up on the fats
> 
> MONOSATURATED - GOOD OR BAD OR WHAT
> 
> ...


All fats are good and necessary with the exception of trans fats and hydrogenated oils.

It is the ratio of each that you will find some debate in


----------



## SD (Sep 3, 2004)

The chart doesn't differentiate between good and bad saturated fat as it comes in a long and short chain form. The better saturates are found in coconut oil, which is best for high temp cooking but the worst is in animal fat which should be minimised in the diet.

SD


----------



## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

SportDr said:


> The chart doesn't differentiate between good and bad saturated fat as it comes in a long and short chain form. The better saturates are found in coconut oil, which is best for high temp cooking but the worst is in animal fat which should be minimised in the diet.
> 
> SD


I myself dont think that animal fat is as bad as most make it out to be.

I just dont buy it, high fat cultures like the French and Swiss dont seem to have the problems with saturated fats and they are well above the recommended dosages.

Many cultures used high fats in their diets with no problems. I feel with the addition of more vegetable oils, trans fats and hydrogenated oils they are far worse and probably some of the demise of what is suggested by the pundits for reductions in saturated fats.


----------



## niknaknok (Jun 10, 2007)

is saturated better than un saturated or other way round


----------



## SD (Sep 3, 2004)

hackskii said:


> I myself dont think that animal fat is as bad as most make it out to be.
> 
> I just dont buy it, high fat cultures like the French and Swiss dont seem to have the problems with saturated fats and they are well above the recommended dosages.
> 
> Many cultures used high fats in their diets with no problems. I feel with the addition of more vegetable oils, trans fats and hydrogenated oils they are far worse and probably some of the demise of what is suggested by the pundits for reductions in saturated fats.


But! is it because the animal fats weren't bad or was it because something else in their diet compensated? hmmm

SD


----------



## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

SportDr said:


> But! is it because the animal fats weren't bad or was it because something else in their diet compensated? hmmm
> 
> SD


Avoiding saturated fats can result in low testosterone levels.

Look up some of the information on paleolithic diets. Here is a link: http://paleodiet.com/

Seemed they were bigger and stronger than their Agricultural counterparts.

I think people make a big deal about saturated fats for nothing.

Many cultures ate eggs every day, cream, butter, animal fats with zero problems.

I never trim the fat off any meat I eat, most of the time I eat it and it tasts so good.


----------



## Tony Barnes (Oct 8, 2004)

niknaknok said:


> just a quick question im not really clued up on the fats
> 
> MONOSATURATED - GOOD OR BAD OR WHAT
> 
> ...


Put very, very simply:

Natural fat = good, just keep eye on ratios

Man damaged fat = bad

Fats that are in their natural undamaged state are processed by our bodies just fine. Rancid, oxidised, cyclised, polymerised, trans, etc, etc, ones are not processed well by our body's, and cock everything up.

For the sake of simplicity (and sanity) a 1:1:1 ratio of poly, mono, sats is about fine. In the polys, you should also aim for a 1:1 of omega 3:6 once all sources are taken into account.

The higher the degree of unsaturisation, the easier a fat is to damage during processing/cooking/oxygen contact/light contact/etc.

So this makes:

Saturates : tough as old boots

Monos : pretty tough, but susceptible to damage

Polys: easy to damage;

LA omega 6 is 5x harder to damage than LNA omega 3, which in turn is 5x harder to damage than EPA or DHA omega 3

How you use the fat should be as follows:

High in sats, low in monos/polys = use for any cooking - e.g. coconut oil and butter

Medium in all/more monos = use for low temperature cooking, use as dressing/add into cooked foods - e.g. olive oil

High in polys, low in monos/sats = use as a dressing, add into cooked foods, have to be cold pressed and stored properly - do not cook with! - e.g. flax oil

If you buy any vegetable oil off the ambient shelf and expect it to be any good for you, it's not. The stuff that claims to be stable, etc, is not. They just care less about the damage being done (trans fats can be made in normal cooking oils when heated above 100 centigrade - adding hydrogen is not necessary, as the temperature merely needs to exceed the strength of the pi bond on the double bonded carbon atoms, which it does quite easily...) - and that's before you look at the issues of oxidisation, free radical cascade formation, etc, etc, etc.

Erm, but to recap:

Put very, very simply:

Natural fat = good, just keep eye on ratios

Man damaged fat = bad


----------



## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Tony Barnes said:


> Put very, very simply:
> 
> Natural fat = good, just keep eye on ratios
> 
> ...


Nice post man.

Reading your post how hard is EPA and DHA to damage?


----------



## Tony Barnes (Oct 8, 2004)

EPA and DHA are both about 5x easier to damage than LNA. The more double bonds there are, the more points of attack are left open - the downside for heavily unsaturated fats...


----------



## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Tony Barnes said:


> EPA and DHA are both about 5x easier to damage than LNA. The more double bonds there are, the more points of attack are left open - the downside for heavily unsaturated fats...


What about peanut oil, that is a monounsaturated fat that they fry whole turkeys in.

I thought that had one of the higher cooking temperature oils there is?

*TYPE OF OIL*

*
SMOKE POINT*

Lard

361-394°F

Olive Oil

375°F

Sesame Oil

419°F

Peanut Oil

448°F

Corn Oil

457°F

Canola Oil

460°F

Soybean Oil

466°F

Sunflower Oil

475°F

Safflower Oil

509°F


----------



## Tony Barnes (Oct 8, 2004)

Smoke point is only an indication of when things are going really, really wrong.

Have a look at this page http://www.harricksci.com/accessories/H_fatir.cfm - click the Applications button on the upper right. The graphs show how it can measure trans fat formation when cooking at just 102 degrees C. Bear in mind that reaction rates of this kind are linear, and increasing temp will increase damage quickly.

The more double bonds, the more opportunity for trans-fat formation.

The issues with cylclised/dimerised fats comes in the large scale refinement processes, which leave the fat in a right frigging mess - it's so they can homogenate many different oils into 1, virtually tasteless "long shelf life" one. EFAs don't last well on a shelf, monos fair better, and saturates can pretty much be left around ad infinitum.

To avoid this, I only ever cook with butter, or Cocounut oil when I have some (which is basically never..  ) - such that the predominant fat being heated is saturated, and therefore cannot become a transfat.

(sorry, I have no idea how fahrenheit relates to celcius...!!)


----------



## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Tony Barnes said:


> Smoke point is only an indication of when things are going really, really wrong.
> 
> Have a look at this page http://www.harricksci.com/accessories/H_fatir.cfm - click the Applications button on the upper right. The graphs show how it can measure trans fat formation when cooking at just 102 degrees C. Bear in mind that reaction rates of this kind are linear, and increasing temp will increase damage quickly.
> 
> ...


I cook with butter, it is just easy and tasts good too.

I use butter too on foods and in foods, it tasts good.

It looks like you are staying away from saturated fats?

I know when they make vegetable oils they use presses that exert tons of pressure making massive amounts of heat, then they use a solvent (I believe benzine) to further extract the oil from the remaining stuff.

If that wasnt bad enough, that solvent has a flash off that leaves some of the substance in the oils.

Those levels are said to be toxic but due to it being in cooking oil they suggest it is safe.

But no other food source allows this level of PPM.

Strange how you can pick up oil off the shelf and have it pretty freaking bad for you, adding in high heat in deep frying it is terrible, kind of a double whammy deal.

I bet a third of my fat in my diet is saturated.

I think the demonization of saturated fats is taken out of context.


----------



## Tony Barnes (Oct 8, 2004)

Not at all - I'm a stern advocate of saturates in the diet, but so long as EFAs are taken care of elsewhere.

Saturates by their very definition are bloody hard to damage, and as such have certain applications like cooking, that cannot be beaten from a health standpoint, unless you were to maybe steam everything...

1/3 of fat in diet as sats is fine IMO - a 1:1:1 polys, monos, sats is a nice easy way to keep track of things.

At the minute, I'm actually getting a little more, as I've been getting too lazy to have my morning smoothie (which has about 30ml udos in in  ), so my daily butter/cheese/meat/gold top milk intake pushes things further to the sats. Still, back at it next week, as energy levels in morning have been suffering!!

Also, if you're talking MCTs from coconut oil (and lesser extent butter), then you can disregard them from the ratios altogether as they are burned soo efficiently as fuel that they don't reach membranes.


----------



## invisiblekid (Jun 18, 2006)

Great thread! You guys are providing some great info.

Just out of interest what would you guys use for cooking on a grill like a Foreman? Temps aren't massively high and the cooking time is short, but I usually do put a little olive oil on my chicken and add some dry seasoning. Would you advise against this?

I've also tried Canola with Red Palm Oil - which suggests it's hard to break down due to the addition of the Palm Oil - could either of you guys hazzard a guess as to whether this would be safe to cook (fry or grill) with?

Is frying a different situation completely to grilling on a Foreman for example?

EDIT: http://www.carotino.eu/uk/index.htm - this is the oil I've used previously.


----------



## Tony Barnes (Oct 8, 2004)

TBH wouldn't use anything on a george foreman, then again, wouldn't use a george foreman full stop... Why pour away undamaged fats, then add them in from cooking oils?? (to be fair, olive oil is far better choice than sunflower oil)

I'm simply not a fan of vegetable oil type cooking oils, simply doesn't fit the remit. Carotino does have higher AO levels, but still better to just use a more saturated oil for cooking with - unless really quick, low temp cooking, then stuff like olive oil does come into the frame. The level of refinement of something like carotino is also underplayed - their "how it's made" page is very light on how it's actually made, other than stating it doesn't use hydrogenated oils...

The funniest one I've seen of late is a Gillian McKeith omega 3 rich cooking oil... they just say that it keeps most of it's benefit. Yeah, but it also picks up a pooh load of damage that your body then has to clear up..


----------



## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

I have used the George Forman grill and I pour the fat from the tray back over the meat when I eat it.

Again I am a fan of saturated fats in the diet, more than most if not all.

There are some cultures like the French that have very high saturated diets with cardiovascular disease far below those in the States that eat less saturated fats than the French.

I think they call that the French Paradox.


----------



## Tony Barnes (Oct 8, 2004)

French Paradox - sit around eating lots of saturated fat, smoking, and drinking, and live to a ripe old age...

Probable reasons:

1. Saturates don't kill you, unless you have a poor antioxidant status / rubbish other fat intake

2. French diet is otherwise "good" and high in vegetables - lycopene from tomatoes has been shown to be excellent at prevent lung damage from smoking

3. Grape seeds and skin are excellent sources of proanthocyanins (sp?!?), and as such a glass or two of wine helps keep your arteries in check. Though commonly thought that red wine is better for this (as the skin is left on, and it has a higher resveratol count), recent research indicates that white wine is just as useful

4. Less stressful lives - the don't half like going on strike over there...

Oh, and nice idea with pouring the fat back on the meat - you should see the way I eat butter fried eggs and bacon... mmmmmmm


----------



## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Tony Barnes said:
 

> Oh, and nice idea with pouring the fat back on the meat - you should see the way I eat butter fried eggs and bacon... mmmmmmm


Haaaa haaaa, I eat this on weekends, the bacon or sausage, I have been putting some maple syrup on the bacon and it comes back richly glazed that is soooooo freaking tasty....

proanthocyanidin.

I used to buy some Oligomeric proanthocyanidins (OPCs), and that stuff was killer but way too expensive, My bro had exhema(sp) and in about a month his skin cleared up big time.

It had a nice tast too as it was isotonic and the delivery system was very nice.

It would even kick a hang over too, which I thought was strange.

If I had the money I would buy more but now, I am trying to save my money.


----------



## Tony Barnes (Oct 8, 2004)

mmmmm, maple syrup on bacon and eggs... damn, that is a tasty treat! Still remember having breakfast in an american cafe when I was about 16 "So I can have a 10oz steak, with a stack of blueberry pancakes, icecream, and maple syrup??" - I was in heaven!!!

From a health point... hmm, not that great! Sugar + protein + cooking = maillard reaction. Tastes great, but body doesn't cope well with it.. When you get the same burnt taste from normal foods, it's just the glycoproteins going yummy - so at least there's chuff all of them!

The oringinal french pine bark stuff was research by Prof Jack Masquelier - his OPC's are the only ones guaranteed to do the job. Bloody good stuff, but damn, very, very pricey. We did it for a bit, but just a waste of time, as couldn't shift it at the price. Shame really, as would save a lot of lives if everyone was forced to take em, lol!


----------



## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Can you explain this? *maillard reaction*

Never heard of that before.

I really dont count bacon as a protein

But then again cooking fat and sugars might not be good either.

Thanks man, I learned something today again.

At this rate I will be a smart guy in about oh, lets say 80 years


----------



## Tony Barnes (Oct 8, 2004)

Maillard reaction is pretty much as pretty much as I outlined above. Amino acids react with reducing sugars when heated, and form bloody tonnes of different molecules - this is why different foods take on different flavours when cooked in different ways, and the difference in the amino acids and sugar molecules available dictates differences between different food types (e.g. pork scratching tastes little like pecking duck). Steaming doesn't create enough heat to cause the reaction, so the food doesn't brown, and the meat doesn't taste the same.

Unfortunately some of the end products are regarded as carcinogenic (TBH I have no idea which), so though it tastes better, food cooked like this ain't better for health. There's probably some decent info on the web about it.

Sugar + fat is a concern if saturated or heavy in omega 6, as combined they increase insulin response. Fine if timed right (e.g. PWO), otherwise not ideal.


----------



## toxictoffee (May 2, 2007)

> Can you explain this? maillard reaction


just think bread > toast reggers:


----------



## Tony Barnes (Oct 8, 2004)

Er, yeah, that could've been a simpler explanation...


----------



## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

thanks


----------

