# You build strength before mass



## LionMX (Oct 4, 2010)

How much truth is in that statement?

I'm always on youTube trawling through bb vids and there's one on there from a guy who discusses a "killer chest workout", and in it he makes the above statement.

This guy has a good physique and a massive chest, but he sais it took him 17years to achieve those results. I find it very difficult to put mass onto my chest - its the one part of my body I try hard to increase, but the only part which wont grow. Should I be focussing on reaching my max strength before worrying about mass?


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## MarkFranco (Aug 26, 2010)

Strength = Mass

You can't build mass benching 40kg


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## Vibrance (Aug 28, 2009)

\ said:


> Strength = Mass
> 
> You can't build mass benching 40kg


Probably could because it's all about making the muscles tear and if your weak like me 40kg could achieve that.


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## WannaGetHench (Aug 22, 2010)

Vibrance said:


> Probably could because it's all about making the muscles tear and if your weak like me 40kg could achieve that.


And me Bench is my weakest lift...


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## gearchange (Mar 19, 2010)

Vibrance said:


> Probably could because it's all about making the muscles tear and if your weak like me 40kg could achieve that.


Once your muscles have got used to that weight you need to add more for continued growth.Thats why strength = Mass=strength=mass and so on.


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## MarkFranco (Aug 26, 2010)

Vibrance said:


> Probably could because it's all about making the muscles tear and if your weak like me 40kg could achieve that.


Using that theory bodyweight squats and pushups are just as effective as squattin' and benching heavy


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## Was_Eric (Jul 3, 2008)

gearchange said:


> Once your muscles have got used to that weight you need to add more for continued growth.Thats why strength = Mass=strength=mass and so on.


which came first?


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## WannaGetHench (Aug 22, 2010)

MarkFranco said:


> Using that theory bodyweight squats and pushups are just as effective as squattin' and benching heavy


So you wont have a big chest until you can bench 120kg?


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## MarkFranco (Aug 26, 2010)

WannaGetHench said:


> So you wont have a big chest until you can bench 120kg?


Its a start

Arnie could squat/deadlift about 650lbs/300kg and bench around 450lbs/200kg

Ronnie coleman can deadlift 800lbs

Branch warren, well look at his vids on youtube he lifts some weight thats for sure


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## nlr (Oct 18, 2009)

but theres no point lifting heavy with bad form?


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## WannaGetHench (Aug 22, 2010)

MarkFranco said:


> Its a start
> 
> Arnie could squat/deadlift about 650lbs/300kg and bench around 450lbs/200kg
> 
> ...


But theres plenty of people at my gym who bench 80-120kg and have big chests? Surely if your eating right and training right with sleep it will grow? No matter how much weight you use?


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## MarkFranco (Aug 26, 2010)

nlr said:


> but theres no point lifting heavy with bad form?


if you can clean 500lbs and it looks more like a SLDL to reverse curl then a clean I dont give a ****, brute strength is still strength


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## 54und3r5 (Apr 11, 2008)

You don't have to be ridiculously strong to be big! Many bodybuilders follow high rep/volume workouts and don't use monstrous weights! Progression is the key, whether its adding weight/reps or reducing rest time or increasing time under tension. There are so many variables!!


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## WannaGetHench (Aug 22, 2010)

54und3r5 said:


> You don't have to be ridiculously strong to be big! Many bodybuilders follow high rep/volume workouts and don't use monstrous weights! Progression is the key, whether its adding weight/reps or reducing rest time or increasing time under tension. There are so many variables!!


Alex reid does high rep/volume workouts and hes not small, you could bench 70kg, with tut, negative reps and all the others and it will still work the muscles...


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## Sharp161 (Jan 31, 2010)

Id say if your having trouble building your chest go back and check your bench form!

The amount of times iv dropped the weight gone back to check form concentrated on it and made gains. Plenty of threads on here too about good form. The dave tate one had some good comments.


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## MarkFranco (Aug 26, 2010)

Justin Harris a BB squatting 500lbs for 16 reps... That imo is strong


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## MarkFranco (Aug 26, 2010)

WannaGetHench said:


> Alex reid does high rep/volume workouts and hes not small, you could bench 70kg, with tut, negative reps and all the others and it will still work the muscles...


Alex reid isnt big either

MMA fighters that are fairly big, Jeff Monson and Ian Freeman


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## Mark W H (Jan 25, 2010)

As the man said its all about progression. The easiest progressions to messure are added weight to the lift or added reps. The added weight equals added strength which equals added mass


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## DanB (Dec 28, 2009)

nlr said:


> but theres no point lifting heavy with bad form?


Just lift heavy with good form?

It'll benefit you far more in the long run.


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## nlr (Oct 18, 2009)

MarkFranco said:


> Alex reid isnt big either


He isn't skinny though :cool2:


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## DanB (Dec 28, 2009)

MarkFranco said:


> *Alex reid isnt big either*
> 
> MMA fighters that are fairly big, Jeff Monson and Ian Freeman


He's definitely big when compared to average guy, and also when compared to guys posting in the 'getting started' section.


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## WannaGetHench (Aug 22, 2010)

DanB said:


> He's definitely big when compared to average guy, and also when compared to guys posting in the 'getting started' section.


Exactly hes bigger than most, and not exactly skinny is he?


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## MarkFranco (Aug 26, 2010)

6ft and 180lbs is quite small imo

Ian freeman 5"11 and 210lbs much bigger

Jeff monson 5"9/10 230lbs

Wanderlei silva at 5"11 when he was fighting at 205lbs looked fairly big


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## 54und3r5 (Apr 11, 2008)

Without getting into a massive squabble, alex reid; has above average size and is in good condition. After being a member here for two years, he has a better physique than the majority of people who I've seen posting pictures on here. Granted he is not as big or is not carrying as much mass as a few of these mentioned people.

However, I think the majority on here get fat and justify it to themselves by using the term 'bulking' when there's absolutely no need for it. Then they have the audacity to comment that a physique like 'alex reid' (for example) is sh1t when they look like a pile of w4nk themselves!

** note, this is not an attack on anyone posting in this thread, just my general observations from being a member!


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## MarkFranco (Aug 26, 2010)

Might be worthwhile to point out Alex Reid doesnt train for size he trains for sport specific reasons, there is a cut off point when training for sport.

He isnt interested in Hypetrophy, he will only be lifting weights to aid his MMA game, 70kg bench at 80kg bw is pretty **** poor in fairness aswell if you are right in saying he only benches 70kg

But I also believe the only thing more functional then a 600lbs deadlift, is a 700lbs deadlift

He is in good shape no doubt and if thats the look you want fair enough, but by no means big


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## Andy Dee (Jun 1, 2008)

MarkFranco said:


> You can't build mass benching 40kg


Not entirely true



MarkFranco said:


> Strength = Mass


Very true indeed.


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## 54und3r5 (Apr 11, 2008)

He can prob bench more than 70kg - prob just does circuits with it!


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## Paul_k2 (Mar 21, 2009)

Justin Harris is huge and super strong i've watched many of his vids in the past, Cutler uses heavy weight and high rep as does Ronnie. Its takes a long time but progression is the key, the stronger you get the bigger you get and vice versa.

Levrone said in The Maryland Muscle Machine "im big because i'm strong, i'm strong because i'm big" very true


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## Andy Dee (Jun 1, 2008)

Another all time classic quote

'Bodybuilding isnt about what you can lift, its how you lift it'.

= absoloute and utter ballox.


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## bry1979 (May 2, 2010)

i think the key is lifting heavy weights with correct form within hypertropy rep range 8-12theres no point trying to bodybuild with weight that you can only manage 2-3 reps, thats where it becomes powerlifting. Powerlifters are concerned with 1 thing and thats shifting the weight from a to b, wheras bodybuilders need to think about the muscle they are using and feel the contraction. So in theroy this is true, strength = mass but only if built up slowly using the correct form and rep range


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## kevo (Aug 7, 2003)

nlr said:


> but theres no point lifting heavy with bad form?


This.


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## MarkFranco (Aug 26, 2010)

andysutils said:


> Another all time classic quote
> 
> 'Bodybuilding isnt about what you can lift, its how you lift it'.
> 
> = absoloute and utter ballox.


Loads of people get hung up on this correct form thing, obviously theres bad form that leads to injury and then theres just been down right ****ing anal about it, like the thread about people "bobbing" there knees


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## martin brown (Dec 31, 2008)

Right - here's why you need to get strong to get big-

As a beginner you do not have the skill to recruit many muscle fibres in most of the typical gym lifts. This means when you train, even if your doing "bodybuilding" training, you're not going to get many muscle fibres working and therefore not many growing.

Strength gains as a beginner come from neural adaptation - your body gets better at using more of its muscle to move when doing exercises. This is exactly what you need to begin getting bigger too.

It has been suggested that some movements as a beginner we only recruit 30-50% of possible fibres. Training only half of your muscle will only ever result in half of the possible amaount of growth per session.

Learn to recruit 90%+ of muscle fibres and 90% of your muscle grows every session.

Simple.


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## martin brown (Dec 31, 2008)

nlr said:


> but theres no point lifting heavy with bad form?


Theres no point lifting light weights with good form either.

Answer is dont be a retard and lift heavy weights properly.


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## CJ (Apr 24, 2006)

I though it was as simple as this.

As you start lifting heavier the body constantly tries to adapt (increase) the muscle to suit the amount being lifted.

so

the heavier you lift the bigger you'll become.

Is that right ??


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## nlr (Oct 18, 2009)

bry1979 said:


> i think the key is lifting heavy weights with correct form within hypertropy rep range 8-12theres no point trying to bodybuild with weight that you can only manage 2-3 reps, thats where it becomes powerlifting. Powerlifters are concerned with 1 thing and thats shifting the weight from a to b, wheras bodybuilders need to think about the muscle they are using and feel the contraction. So in theroy this is true, strength = mass but only if built up slowly using the correct form and rep range


Sorry abit of a noob question but what exactly is hypertropy and are you saying you cant build mass with 5 rep range?


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## CJ (Apr 24, 2006)

On my heavy days i usually aim for around 4-6 reps on the big compound exercises.

Seems to be working for me, I do mix it up a fair bit though and use higher reps


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## martin brown (Dec 31, 2008)

CJones said:


> I though it was as simple as this.
> 
> As you start lifting heavier the body constantly tries to adapt (increase) the muscle to suit the amount being lifted.
> 
> ...


Yes, thats right. It adapts by doing two things mainly -

1 - learning to control more muscle motor units to let more muscle do the work (making you stronger / making it easier for the body to do something, think spreading the load)

2 - making the usable muscle bigger so next time you dont struggle

Now this is where BB'ing and PL'ing gets slightly different in training, BB'ers want more of the second and PL'ers want more of the first. Problem is without both you dont make the fastest gains possible which is why a beginner needs to focus on strength.


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## bry1979 (May 2, 2010)

nlr said:


> Sorry abit of a noob question but what exactly is hypertropy and are you saying you cant build mass with 5 rep range?


hypertrophy is muscle growth mate. I often use lower rep range when trying to build strength which in turn should push up the weight in your normal rep range (8-12).


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## Andy Dee (Jun 1, 2008)

I didnt ever need to know the maths behind any of the reasoning, simple logic told me that everyone who is bigger is stronger and thats why I made he decision to go down the strength route first.

Ive seen people who are small who are strong and weak, but ive never seen ay big guys who are weak, only strong.


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## frowningbudda (Dec 16, 2008)

I tend to work up to 1 or 2 working sets of 2-4 reps

then add a couple of drop sets of higher reps, usually 8-15,

to make sure I hit the majority of fibres.

Always done it this way.

As long as the overall weight goes up every few weeks I'm happy


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## Andy Dee (Jun 1, 2008)

Ive no idea how people build strength and get so much stronger on 8-12 reps, i really dont it just baffles me.


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## bry1979 (May 2, 2010)

andysutils said:


> Ive no idea how people build strength and get so much stronger on 8-12 reps, i really dont it just baffles me.


you don't necessarily build strength at those reps mate but you do build muscle. I find strength training better @ 4-7 reps.


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## LionMX (Oct 4, 2010)

I've decided to go for a 12 rep count on my exercises with a weight I can completely control, i'm aching like a b***h and its 2 days after my newly adopted training style so that has to be good surely?

In the past I trained with a friend and he was all about ramping up the weight every session rather than getting out the quality reps - at my best I reached a bench press of 120kg, which i appreciate is mediocre amongst you guys but was quite an achievement for me. Anyway I kept this up for a short-while but didn't see jack-all gains and ended up packing in lifting. Hence me asking this question!

Anyway, thank you all for the info, I got lots of positives out of this thread


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