# GET BIG WORKOUT



## Killerkeane

well, done chest yesterday, this is what im doing now.

Monday- Chest+Tris

Tuesday-Back+bi's

Wednesday-Legs+Shoulders

Thursday- Day off

Friday-Chest +tris

Saturday-Backs+Bi's

Sunday+Legs

I keep my workout down to 30 mins by using supersets, i think this workout is hitting the major muscles hard enough to spur serious growth, which is what it is all about.

I think this looks sound but would appreciate the advice anyway.

I use compound exercises like bench, shoulder press, squats, deadlifts so i think it looks good?

Cheers


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## Panthro

toooo much, even with only 30 min sessions that'll lead to over training IMO mate..3 days in a row is too much for the body to handle


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## Greyphantom

Panthro said:


> toooo much, even with only 30 min sessions that'll lead to over training IMO mate..3 days in a row is too much for the body to handle


Especially if youre training at heavy intensity levels...


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## powerU

i do the same split now, just once a week though (gone from 4 to 3 days).

What you're doing there is gonna hammer your tri's 3 times a week every other day - you'll compromise all your upper body workouts with that.


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## Panthro

powerU said:


> What you're doing there is gonna hammer your tri's 3 times a week every other day - you'll compromise all your upper body workouts with that.


very good point too mate! couldnt agree more


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## winger

Killer on the first chest day only do bench. On the second chest day do inclines. That way you wont be doing more sets for that muscle group, but will still hit it twice a week. That goes for back too. First day do widening and the next back day do thickening. Shoulders you only have there once so I wont comment.


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## OnePack

wow..only 4 days to recover. i only do each body part oce a week at most as it takes at least a week for me to recover even with creatine. well done!


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## Sam_UK

If it's working for you then keep going 

It looks like a steroids routine lol


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## winger

He hasn't tried it yet but I say go for it. What is the worst that can happen not make gains for a few weeks. The body adapts fast so if he eats real good and gets a ton of sleep it might work for him. Super setting you cant go as heavy so it might not tear down like pushing the heavy weights. Its a change for him anyway.


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## Cookie

Panthro training 3 days in a row isnt too much i`m training the upperbody for 3 straight days then switching to lowerbody for 3 straight days then repeat the whole cycle for 21 days straight then have 7 full days off.

matracabergfan,if your only managing to just recover after 7 full days rest from one workout,your training way way too much,in the long run(gains wise)your doing yourself a lot of damage,your over taxing your central nervous sytem and by working to the point I think your are your starting to force your body to constrict your veins and arteries etc to stop them from rupturing from over pumping the muscles.

Another way he could plan the routine is by doing compound movements in the first part of the week then do isolation movements at the end of the week.

IMO,all muscles should be worked "AT LEAST" twice a week to help with growth and recovery,that being the second workout helps to shift and clear away all the built up lactic acid and toxins that accumalate after a heavy sesh which in turn in their own right are the main factors as to why we dont always grow because they are holding back the nutrients from getting threw.

At one time everybody and I mean everybody used to train a muscle twice a week wether they were on gear or not.


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## Panthro

ONE SMART COOKI said:


> Panthro training 3 days in a row isnt too much i`m training the upperbody for 3 straight days then switching to lowerbody for 3 straight days then repeat the whole cycle for 21 days straight then have 7 full days off..


i agree to a certain degree, especially as you follow the old skool routines (infact, are we going to get to see the sourcerers apprentices soon? I am very interested and at some point would like to subject myself to your wicked ways! ), but i think for killerkeane it would result in overtraining, although i wont ever disagree with you in principle as you were involved in this before i was born and know millions more times what i do!!!


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## Cookie

Panthro said:


> i agree to a certain degree, especially as you follow the old skool routines (infact, are we going to get to see the sourcerers apprentices soon? I am very interested and at some point would like to subject myself to your wicked ways! ), but i think for killerkeane it would result in overtraining, although i wont ever disagree with you in principle as you were involved in this before i was born and know millions more times what i do!!!


Thanks panthro,nice words,

The apprentices will be under wraps till end of the year(sorry)but you can join anytime you want as I have just taken on a couple more so the cookie family is growing like a virus outta control and will soon dominate the bbing world and I will be king once more,hahahahaha:eek:

No seriously anytime mate.

All killerleane has to do is is learn to listen to his bod and its feedback that way he can avoid the overtraining and keep the tissue growing and full all the time.

Heres what I would suggest

Monday chest/back/shoulders.4 set of twelve reps doing one compound exercise for each body part.

Tuesday Biceps/triceps/forearm,same as above

Wednesday.thighs/hams/calves thighs and hams 4 sets 15 reps and calves 4 sets 20reps

Thursday rest and cheat day with food.

Friday same as monday but using isolation exercises for 4 sets 15 reps

saturday same as above and bodyparts as tuesday

Sunday Same bodyparts as wednesday but up reps to 20 for thighs/hams and 30 for calves

Monday eat like a starving viking and repeat all over again doing it for no more than 3 weeks then taking atleast 5 full days off.


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## winger

Here is a routine that I just started this week. I did it about a year ago and I really liked it.

Monday

Chest-----------Flat bench

Back------------Pull ups wide, pull ups close grip

Tuesday

Legs------------Squats

Wednesday

Shoulders------Dumbell military presses

Tricepts--------Standing tricept extensions

Thursday

Off--------------Yea hoo

Friday

Chest----------Inclines

Back-----------Low cable rows, single arm db rows

Saturday

Shoulders-----Side lateral raises, shrugs

Bicepts--------Standing hammer curls, preacher bench

The purpose of this routine is to overlap the body but not to do more sets per week. I did this routine before and you feel strong in every lift. The key is to keep the body guessing. Next week I do the same body parts on the same day but change excercises. So it take 3 weeks to get back to this routine again. If it sound confusing pm me. The only flaw that I see is on friday and saturday. My bicepts get worked 2 days in a row. I could work them on wednesday but I only have 17 minutes to train on my lunch break. I go very heavy staying in the 8-10 range saving my strength for the work set. Feel free to critique my routine. I am a big boy and I can take it. Infact I invite you to critique it. Bring on the flames


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## Cookie

winger said:


> I invite you to critique it. Bring on the flames


  Here we go then just my opinions

Flat benches,horrible exercise too much front delt action and makes the pecs look droopy and narrow for a lot of people.

Squats,too much glute work for most people,big butts and over development of the obliques and abs due to having to stabilise the body.

Military presses,too much front delt again.

standing tricep extensions,will probably lead to a lot of body movement to get the weight up and then injury.

Shrugs,why develop the traps directly as over developed traps make you look narrow in the delts and throw the symmetry out of the window and anyway they get worked indeirectly with back and shoulder work.

When your working your back and chest together you might as well throw delts in there too as both bodyparts are working the delts a hell of a lot.

Hows that.:cool:


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## winger

ONE SMART COOKI said:


> Here we go then just my opinions
> 
> Flat benches,horrible exercise too much front delt action and makes the pecs look droopy and narrow for a lot of people.
> 
> Squats,too much glute work for most people,big butts and over development of the obliques and abs due to having to stabilise the body.
> 
> Military presses,too much front delt again.
> 
> standing tricep extensions,will probably lead to a lot of body movement to get the weight up and then injury.
> 
> Shrugs,why develop the traps directly as over developed traps make you look narrow in the delts and throw the symmetry out of the window and anyway they get worked indeirectly with back and shoulder work.
> 
> When your working your back and chest together you might as well throw delts in there too as both bodyparts are working the delts a hell of a lot.
> 
> Hows that.:cool:


I think that was a feable attempt. You can do better than that. Bench hits the pecks and the whole peck. Dont even go there about the upper and lower chest. As far as hitting front delts so what is wrong with some big front delts. 

Squats hands down builds the biggest and best legs around. It produces more natural growth hormone than any other excercise period.

Standing tricepts pre stretch the tries and gets you a much better workout than pushdowns or kickbacks. Come on you know this stuff.

Shrugs I dont have traps so now what................lol 

If you think I am overtraining my shoulders look again. 6 sets for chest, 8-12 for back because it is the biggest sheet of muscle. 6 sets for shoulders. This is in a weeks time.

Do those power lifters have small droopy narrow pecks............lol

Go back and brainstorm with Jimmy and come up with something better...........lol


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## Panthro

i agree with cookie on all that lot, esp squats! Obviously as part of the training i was doing, i have been squatting havy heavy and it has definately given me a BIG set of glutes, solid yes, but also big.

TBH i dont think you need to shrug if you deadlift. i sure dont.

I still use military press, but thn im training for strength, from a BBIng perspective i can see where OSC is comming from..

as for flat bench.. i think that is a great exercise for injury.. so many injuries arise from that...


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## hackskii

I just started almost the same routine as winger and am going to do military and biceps instead of triceps but for the most part similar.

I am doing this for strength because I am too prefetigued from doing my other associated exercise for the same muscle group to really hit it with any intensity.

So with that said, I think I will be able to get some strength gains from this routine.

I will try it for 8-10 weeks and see how it goes.

I do think bench can cause injury but this is magnified using gear. I never had an injury until I used gear. Hey, just the normal wear and tear from everyday living but I attribute some of that to age too.

So for bench, I enjoy the lift and helped the triceps out too. The chest is one of my better body parts and if bench is a poor exercise then all I can say is it works for me.

I always put my priority into bar bench and did inclines after the bench and stopped doing flys and peckdeck about 6 years ago.

I also noticed after taking gear the shoulders exploded too and feel that this has somthing to do with having the most androgen receptors in the delts.

I dont get much lactic acid buildup anymore unless I do a new exercise that I either have never done or not done in a long time. I also feel that if you dont have the size on the muscle you wont get it from doing isolation exercises.

We all have our stubbern body parts and hammering away on them to make them grow just does not work.

I like winger dont have traps either. But the only time I did see growth was when I went really heavy in shrugs.

I myself am wide and some traps would look good I think.


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## winger

Panthro said:


> i agree with cookie on all that lot, esp squats! Obviously as part of the training i was doing, i have been squatting havy heavy and it has definately given me a BIG set of glutes, solid yes, but also big.
> 
> TBH i dont think you need to shrug if you deadlift. i sure dont.
> 
> I still use military press, but thn im training for strength, from a BBIng perspective i can see where OSC is comming from..
> 
> as for flat bench.. i think that is a great exercise for injury.. so many injuries arise from that...


Its ok to disagree. Ask all those strong men that you are going to compete with if they do bench? I dont even think Cookie agrees with himself. The key to being big is a big foundation. How do you get that. From basic compound movements. I have been training for a very long time and I have no injuries. I go very heavy and still have no injuries.

Do you do bench Panthro?..............................


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## winger

Would you say that some of your gains came from gear?

Do I take advice from someone that got big from gear or from someone that did it natural?

I am new to this. Would a routine from someone that is doing gear work for me?


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## megatron

I don't pretent to know even a fraction of cookies knowladge on the subject of individual exercises BUT, if you look at the world bench press champs (800lbs+) these dudes don't have wierd looking pecs, they are mountainous.


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## Panthro

megatron said:


> I don't pretent to know even a fraction of cookies knowladge on the subject of individual exercises BUT, if you look at the world bench press champs (800lbs+) these dudes don't have wierd looking pecs, they are mountainous.


... and if you take their bench shirts off they can bench over 600lbs.

Jamie Reeves told me half of these big benchers DONT have pecs, as they rely on bench shirts. also, one of the big names who he was watching (cant remember name) did a 270kg (~600lbs) bench raw and jamie said in a powerlifting comp he would have failed the lift, and it was [email protected], but then he put his shirt on and banged out over 800lbs..

I think the pic you wil have seen was scott mendelson who is a 900 bencher,and has an awesome physique to match, but half the other guys dont and do have weird shaped pecs...

Winger.. I dont flat bench anymore. Close grip & Incline yes, flat-very rarely, i dont need to. and a lot of the "big strong men" i compete against dont either.. how often do you use your chest in strongman anyway???


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## Cheater2K

Mines split up like

Monday - Chest and Bi's

Tueday - Day off (or i do legs here and have wednesday off)

Wednesday - Legs (or day off and do legs on tuesday.)

Thursday - Shoulders and Abs

Friday - Back and Triceps


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## winger

Panthro said:


> ... and if you take their bench shirts off they can bench over 600lbs.
> 
> Jamie Reeves told me half of these big benchers DONT have pecs, as they rely on bench shirts. also, one of the big names who he was watching (cant remember name) did a 270kg (~600lbs) bench raw and jamie said in a powerlifting comp he would have failed the lift, and it was [email protected], but then he put his shirt on and banged out over 800lbs..
> 
> I think the pic you wil have seen was scott mendelson who is a 900 bencher,and has an awesome physique to match, but half the other guys dont and do have weird shaped pecs...
> 
> Winger.. I dont flat bench anymore. Close grip & Incline yes, flat-very rarely, i dont need to. and a lot of the "big strong men" i compete against dont either.. how often do you use your chest in strongman anyway???


Yea I figured you did inclines. That hits the chest a little bit better anyway. How hard is it to get one of those bench shirts on? What if you blew a rotator just putting the shirt on?..........lol


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## Panthro

winger said:


> How hard is it to get one of those bench shirts on?


very hard mate, with the double denim ones you need to lube yourself up! lol.... they are pretty pointless IMO, and there is currently a bit of a backlash about them in powerlifting circles, and now lots of new un-equiped federations are popping up as people are getting ****ed off with the pointless ness of the shirts!


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## hackskii

Well, again I can only say what goes for me. I have always benched as I dig that exercise (my fave). I enjoy doing it and if for any other reason that is reason enough. 90 percent of all my development came from bench and my chest might be my best bodypart.

But we are all diffrent with diffrent bodys, diffrent genetics, diffrent diets, sleep paterns, percentages of slow and fast twich fibers, motivation, age, routines.

What works for one might not work for all or even others.

Just get into the gym, enjoy your workout because you can and reap the benefits of your time in the gym. It should be fun and setting goals and reaching them is fun. Looking at your improvements in the mirror is fun too. Having a woman touch you and say, you are so hard (muscles) is fun. Even guys walking up to you checking you out knowing you are twice as big as them is fun.

I do enjoy what I do and if it was not fun, I dont think I would do it.


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## Cookie

OOOHHHH boy OOOHHHH boy,I seem to have open a can of worms with this one,"NICE"

Were do we begin mmmmm,

Winger,right thats a good place to start as I got a reaction from you first whats wrong with the upper and lower chest?we all have them pectorials major and minor(upper and lower)so we need to make adjustments to our exercises to take full advantage of their different movements,granted that the main aspect of the pecs is to bring the elbows across the body but if you bring them across lowdown you will feel the lower pec contract most,then if you bring them across high up you will feel the upper pec contract the most,try it sat up in a chair no weight in your hand and feel the difference in the way the muscles moves,it moves differently according to the angle of the elbow.

Big front delts,mmmm,for a lot of people over developed front delts lead to injuries in other areas because of instabilities in other muscles and they look ugly and out of proportion to the rest of the body,the question we have to ask is"ARE WE BODYBUILDERS OR WEIGHTLIFTERS?"I would rather spend more time developing the lateral head and look wide wide wide than thick and rounded and hunched forward like quasimodo.

Squats donot build the best legs around they build the fattest and most out of proportion legs around,just look a bbers today big legs big big butts infact bigger butts than their legs,as for growth hormone release yes they do release grow hormone but bet ya if you trained with me I could show you that you could release just as much growth hormone using sissy squats or roman chair squats with the right tempo and rep/set scheme.

Triceps,mmmm,maybe your not concentrating enough on the movement of the muscle when doing kickbacks or pushdowns,when i do em I`m in serious pain,less weight more thought about what your doing,the mind is our biggest tool so use it,thats what i say,kickback,just about everybody does em wrong they just kick the weight straight back,wrong wrong wrong,squeeze it back and out to the sides at about 35/45% away from the body and to make it harder have the knuckles facing backwards rather than out to the sides as in the normal movement(1912 magazine gave me that one)

Most powerlifters have bunched up pecs that are very over developed in the lower portion,and they only lift as much as they do because as panthro said they cheat with bench shirts to for their arms/elbows up and across the chest.

What else?right if we only needed to do compound movements why do we bother with the rest of the exercises?why would bill pearl have bothered to write keys to the inner universe with 600 different exercises in it,he was a pioneer of the sport a very intelligent man,arnolds hero,so he did know what he was doing when he wrote the bloody thing,if we didnt need so many different insertions to our muscles why did nature bother with them,when all she had to do was put one slab of meat there to do the job,ever notice when you do a different exercise how the soreness is different the next day?thats because you have taxed it at another level of its range of motion and development.

And you can build a great physique with isolation movements,it just looks to be slower because you are developing each and every muscle individualy rather than just the bulky portion of it.

Thighs four muscle heads 4 exercise bi`s two muscle heads 2 exercises tri`s 3 head three exercises,imho,etc etc.

And yes I bench but not regular ones anymore,they affect my knackered shoulder,but I do bench to the neck which does not:eek: ever,why?because I keep the weight light to moderate I dont use a wide grip like most who try it and then hurt themselves,I use a grip which has my wrists directly above my elbows at the lowest part of the movement and I keep my elbows back not flapping to the front like most people do with benches and then they places the stress on the front delts and even biceps to help with the stabilising of the weight,and I have lost count of the pec tears that have ruined careers or physiques through the years.

And yes I do agree with myself always,but if somebody came to me to do a specific event then I would have to alter my thinking and doing of things to suit that individual,I would suggest my ideas if they siad no then we would do what they wanted and then when we hit the inevitable platue I would suggest again and the out come is nearl;y always the same,they never go back to their old ways,once they get over the lighter weights and weirdness of some of the exercises and leave their egos outside the gym they make gains.

After 17years of doing this and tons and tons of mistakes even I am still learning and willing to learn,but,I have learnt that there is more than one way to skin a cat,and more than one way to train the differnce is I am willing to try these things not just say no at face value,trial and error is the only way we learn.

Right flame me

And I darnt have a brainstorm with jimmy it would be like newton and einstein getting to gether and the worlds not ready for that


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## Panthro

ONE SMART COOKI said:


> OOOHHHH boy OOOHHHH boy,I seem to have open a can of worms with this one,"NICE"


As always, and i dont expect any less from you mate! gets us all thinking!



ONE SMART COOKI said:


> And I darnt have a brainstorm with jimmy it would be like newton and einstein getting to gether and the worlds not ready for that


more like laurel and hardy!


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## Killerkeane

excellent reading, Basically to cut a long story short, i am working 5 days a week like this

monday- Chest (Supersetting Incline Fly's with Bench & Incline Press with Incline Fly's)

All dumbell work

Tuesday-Back ( Supersetting Deadlifts with Close grip pulldowns & Wide chin and dips with Seated Cable Row

Wednesday- Legs ( No supersetting, Squats, EXT, CURLS, PRESS & Calves

Thursday- Shoulders ( S/ting Shoulder press with Crossover & Side Lats with Front Lats

Friday-Rest day

Saturday- Arms

Biceps( supersetting Rope curls with hammer curls & BArbell curls with concentration curls)

Triceps(Supersetting P/downs with kickbacks & overhead p/downs with one arm extensions

Sunday-off

This is what i have been doing for 3 days now, and it is really hitting me very hard. My chest is red raw, my back is killing and my legs are shaky as i have just done them. I have eaten 3500 calories last 3 days, and 2g protein per pound of bodyweight so its looking good at the moment, i swear i have gained weight in these last 3 days but must be imagining. I like this workout as.... i forgot his name now but Dorian Yates trainer did this and gained about 30lb Lean muscle mass in about 14 weeks.


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## Killerkeane

wow cookie, you know your stuff mate. That was a good read, dont know a lot because i have not been lifting for a awful lot of time but have learned a tremendous amount since i have been doing it so that was very educational. I believe in every range of motion, direction, intensty hitting that particular muscle. Which is why cabled weights are good most of the time as it targets a particular part of that muscle. Im gonna print that one off cookie, some quality info in there.


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## winger

Dont you just love this! 

I think I was saying that before you go for the little isolation excercises that I would build a foundation first. Basic compound movements. Bill Pearl was a big man and I am sure he didn't start out with isolation excercises. I also rotate a lot of different excercises so as far as not having the whole muscle worked I would be supprised. Now genetics has held me back some......lol. I only bench every other week. I usually stay with the higher reps. I agree with the over developed front delts leading to injury. If you look again at the routine I do more back and rear delt than chest. I know the front delts get hit allot so no use working them.

If squats dont build the big massive good looking legs then were did Tom Platz get those thighs. If I remember he used to do like 35 reps with some massive weight in squats. I think he attributed most of his size from squats.  Dont shoot the messenger. 

Tricepts, for me I like to prestretch the tricept because it makes my tricepts sore and I feel I get a better workout.

I also have been training for a long time. I started when I was 16 and I am still clueless...........lol 28 years of training and I like you have tried it all. I cant really flame you but you wont catch me doing bench to the neck. I have tried them and they pump so good but seems like I could do some real damage. I think you could have two workout partners doing the same thing and one might not grow and the other might make great gains.

Its almost like saying that if some guy had small calves and it was genetic and you told him that he was doing calve raises wrong because he had small calves................lol.

Every once in a while I used to train with this guy named bear. He was this very big black guy that benched close to 500 lbs. We were doing shoulders and he went over to the cable crossovers and started doing them. I told him he was working chest at that point. He walkes me over to the mirror and says whoes shoulders are bigger. This guy was a genetic freak. Well his were but that doesn't mean he knows what he is talking about. I no you know what you are talking about but if you are gifted in a body part, that doesn't mean you know what you are talking about. A narrow chest could be from to narrow of a grip on the bench but I suppose it is because his genetics dont allow for the wide chest.


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## Killerkeane

well, this is why we are all addicted to the wierd and wonderful world of bodybuilding, people dont always know what is best and what isnt, what will work and what wont, this sense of unpredicatbility is what drives us crazy. And i wouldnt stop it for anything, except 1 night with some really nice chick  Nah even them couldnt stop me


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## winger

Unless you are post cycle.......lol


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## winger

Why does the bigger guy handle the heavier weight?  He looks bigger, he is bigger and he most definately is stronger. 

Oh and muscularity is all diet. 

If you think you can isolate one muscle to explode then why didn't Robbie Robinson ever make the olympia?.................no calves. Dont you think if he could do some certain excercise and make his calves explode.........lol. Lets just go against genetics. You guys crack me up.


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## Cookie

Platz did get big legs from squating,but if he had held back and not thrown his heart and soul into just that one exercise he may have won the olympia,they threw his symmetry right out the window.

As for the triceps if you want a great stretch try doing tricep pullover presses,they are much better.

I think it was bill pearl who said he didnt believe in genetics,it was just a matter of not training right,and listening to your own body as it will tell you all that you need to know.

If a guy has small calves maybe he just needs prompting on foot positions and execution of the movement.

As for foundation training to me that is learning to lift correctly on all exercises not just the big three ego lifts.


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## winger

Dosn't genetics make up male and female?

Black and white?

Genetics are everything. If it wasn't then why breed dogs?


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## winger

Did the fathers of our great countries try to isolate muscles to swing a sledge hammers building railroads?


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## winger

Its all mental. Diet, training, how much energy when you train. It is all about hitting the sweat spot....................here comes jimmy. I will just cut him off at the pass


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## Cookie

And why did the chicken cross the road,blah blah blah

Yes genetics do exist,I think he was just meaning that people get too tied up in them and should learn to do things right before moaning about their"genetics"

As for robbie,who knows to me he never seemed to cut up enough.


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## winger

I feel honored to talk to you


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## winger

Ok how many times do you train each bodypart?

How many days do you train?

How many sets per body part?

Have you ever heard this before?


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## Cookie

Heard it all the time but you forgot to mention

What steroids can I take to look like you

As for my own routine that changes every 3-4 weeks after a few days complete rest:cool:


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## winger

ONE SMART COOKI said:


> Heard it all the time but you forgot to mention
> 
> What steroids can I take to look like you
> 
> As for my own routine that changes every 3-4 weeks after a few days complete rest:cool:


Ok I like that. Do you train heavy?


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## Cookie

As heavy as need be

But at the moment with training at home I prefer the higher volume set wise and reduced weights and very little rest between sets.


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## winger

This is like pulling wisdom teeth. One finger type thing?


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## winger

You have to be big to start with. That works but only for a while. I tried it and I got nothing out of it at all. Except not used to handling the heavy weights.


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## Cookie

I take it you want a complete lowdown:eek:

Right this is waht I have done so far this week,due to injuries.

Monday/tus/wed-chest/back/shoulders/biceps

mon.chest 8x8 incline flyes 8x8 decline flyes back 6x6 tbar rows shoulders 6x6 one arm laterals on slanted board biceps 8x8 lying bicep db curls

Tues chest 10x10 decline presses back 10x10 bent over rows shoulders 4x12 upright rows 8x8 bent over laterals biceps 10x10 bent over curls

wed chest 4x12 incline presse back 10x10 tbar rows shoulders 10x10 one arm laters on slanted board biceps 6x6 spider curls.

Hows that


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## winger

ONE SMART COOKI said:


> I take it you want a complete lowdown:eek:
> 
> Right this is waht I have done so far this week,due to injuries.
> 
> Monday/tus/wed-chest/back/shoulders/biceps
> 
> mon.chest 8x8 incline flyes 8x8 decline flyes back 6x6 tbar rows shoulders 6x6 one arm laterals on slanted board biceps 8x8 lying bicep db curls
> 
> Tues chest 10x10 decline presses back 10x10 bent over rows shoulders 4x12 upright rows 8x8 bent over laterals biceps 10x10 bent over curls
> 
> wed chest 4x12 incline presse back 10x10 tbar rows shoulders 10x10 one arm laters on slanted board biceps 6x6 spider curls.
> 
> Hows that


On Monday tuesday wednesday? Three days in a row?

No wonder you have an injury


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## hackskii

Overtraining!

16 sets chest monday.

10 sets chest tuesday.

4 sets chest wednesday.

12 sets back monday.

10 sets back tuesday.

10 sets back wednesday.

6 sets shoulders monday.

12 sets shoulders tuesday.

10 sets shoulders wednesday.

8 sets bicep monday

10 sets bicep tuesday.

6 sets bicep wednesday.

No triceps, traps, forearms, no legs and this is all in the first 3 days of the week?

Are you joking?


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## winger

That is what I thought  I was going to ask how he hurt his shoulder but looking at all the fly motions...........awforgetaboutit


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## Cookie

Now then boys your jumping to conclusions and taking things at face value

The injured shoulder happened in 93/94 whilst getting ready for a show so have had probs on and of for years but it isnt bothering me now its my right tricep,another old injury from getting ready for another show so I am doing no direct triceps because it is very painful to do so and my tricep are a little ahead of my biceps so need to bring biceps up to par.

The other injury is my frontal thigh so will have to work around that one with the only option open to me is very partial non lockout one legged squats as i havent yet mastered the art of doing one legged roman chair squats yet:eek:

Legs will be done thurs/fri/sat then I will repeat the workouts from the begining all over again:eek: for 21 days straight:eek: then have a full 7 days rest to fully recuperate and allow my nervous and hormonal systems to settledown

Now then the reasons behind it all:confused: the simple fact is that I am training light,not to light that I can do countless reps and cause injury that way but light enough to bypass my injuries and still target the muscle that I am"CONCENTRATING"on.

Also doing the workout the following day after a relativley light one helps with recovery due to flushing out excess latic acid and toxins out of the muscle therefore speading up recoverythis is called a flushing workout,as you can see from my workouts the majority of the muscles got the highest amount of reps done on monday and then tapered down in number by the third workout,the others I went by feel as to how I felt during each session and recovery the following day.

Forearms will also be done with legs as I feel doing them with the biceps will be too much after doing back and biceps,this being my personel preference.

As for traps,as I stated earlier you get tons of indirect stimulus there in back and shoulders movements,also I feel that traps upto your ears throws the symmetry out and makes the shoulders apear narrower than the actually are,imo.

The overtraining issue,mmmmm,I have to listen to the body after each and every workout to judge what will be done each and everyworkout and adjust accordingly to suit its needs.

The flyes are in there as i want to avoid too many pressing movements that may put undue stress on the already injured tricep.

That`ll do for now,but any other questions please fireaway I really do enjoy top notch discussions like this that are polite and freindly


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## winger

First off I am sorry that you are all beat up. That happens. I dont have any injuries and I have been training for 28 years. I have always trained heavy but I only do one work set to failure per excercise maybe an ocassional down set at the end of the body part but that would be it. I also like talking to you because it is very informative and you have the experiance. Not what I heard this guy say or what the trainer guy said. Hands on training.

I dont know much about the flushing but it does make sense. The way you are training now would you say that you are gaining muscle?

Dont you think you could get better results if you were to divide up your excercises? Flies then the next day legs? I know you talked about the flushing and progressively less reps each day so that didn't fall on deaf ears.  I really like talking to you and I love a good debate, on the soft side.


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## Cookie

At this moment in time I am not after gaining any tissue really just trying to hold onto what I have whilst trying to once and for all nail down my diet side of things ,both for training and healthy living in general.

This whole idea came about after reading about it many times over the years and on the odd occassion doing the single flushing workout to great affect but not the 3 in a row system,which from speaking to people older than myself used to use it to get round injuries and as a way of jolting the body past a sticking point and out of a rut.

As for how I am looking,I did notice this morning that the soreness had drasticaly been reduced,in fact in just checking I am not sore at all:cool: and the chest looks harder and seems to be carrying less subcutaneous water so one or two cuts were peepping through.

As for the injuries,sh#t happens and thats what you get for going balls to the walls everyworkout possible for 8 straight years,so be warned all you little up and coming monsters


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## winger

Would you say that your injuries came about from getting stronger faster than your body could handle it? Most likely using gear?

Or did you just go to heavy not doing enought reps?

Im all ears..............and chest..........lol


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## hackskii

Well cookie, you can remove the lactic acid from stretching the muscle while deep breathing.

Also massage can remove lactic acid and toxins. Hell, so can a jacuzzi.

But I dont like the idea of not resting the muscles even for a day.

I feel that there is no way you can avoid not hitting the upper chest by doing flys on a flat bench. The chest has to flex and even flexing the chest can cause muscle constriction. Isolation is easier for lets say the calves or bicep then the chest.

Sorry to hear about your injuries and I do feel that moderation and not banging the heavy stuff for years is a good idea.

Also the older you get the less you have to do.

I have some good size on me and to maintain my size just requires little work.

I try to put in as little time as possible at the gym as my time is still my time. I do enjoy workingout and will do this for like. Heck it already has been 28 years for me too and I started at 15 years old.

I do have 1 injury myself and it was from doing bench and pushing the heavy stuff while on cycle.

I feel had I not cycled then I would not have an injury.

I also feel that my front delts overpower my rear delts and this can have an adverse effect on the shoulder as well.

There is no right way nor wrong way for everyone. No shoe fits all and with things like injuries and such, modifications are always necessary for success.

Like the Nike commercal says "Just Do It!"


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## Cookie

"Would you say that your injuries came about from getting stronger faster than your body could handle it? Most likely using gear?"

Not a case of getting strong too fast I was just bloody strong for a short ****,full stack on nautilus pullover machine and another 100kilos added,got off after 21 reps too easy,5 plates a side deadlifts 3 reps at about 12 stone 10lbs 4 plates aside deads 13 reps at about 13 stone,just examples.I used to just push myself to the limit all the time,I used to live for the rush of a bone crushing sesh,how foolish was I:rolleyes: you live and learn.

I did use gear but next to nothing by todays standards,at my heaviest usualy no more than 3 testoviron a week and a shot of primo or deca for the anabolic affect.

"Well cookie, you can remove the lactic acid from stretching the muscle while deep breathing"

Yes hacki you can and I do deep breathing(5 breaths)inbetween each set but the extra workouts bring extra blood and with the blood extra nutrients and as it flows through it clears out the muscle and then feeds it,but also I am after keeping the muscle slightly pumped all the time to set it up for later on when I really up the volume and push the boundries a little more,I am feeling pumped and harder for it in all bodyparts so far so there is method in the madness I am also not trying the miss the upper pecs I am trying to do any exercises that avoid pressing movements for a majority of the workout hence saving the decline presses till the second or third workout when lighter weights will be used due to making sure I dont overtrain due to some soreness maybe being there.

All in all this is just an experiment and experimenting is the name of the game,I`ve spent the last 4 years solid experimenting with diets and training and to be frank it is a hell of a lot more fun than"just doing it"

"I dont like the idea of not resting the muscles even for a day"

The muscles will be rested for a full 3 days which is what science has said in the past they need to full recuperate(72hrs)I am trying to slowly and fully train the "WHOLE" aspect of each muscle over the 3 days without banging the life out of it and then being sore for the next 7 days,just tooo much negative things going on with that way of doing things for me,total system revolt to that amount of stress on the body,unless you are on lots of gear.

At the end of the day just sit back and watch this space to see how it all pans out,when I`m done I`ll do a write up on it,hows that for taking the hard work out of it for you:cool:


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## winger

You have to do what you have to do. You have to train that way because of injuries. I, like you (in the past), lift heavy now and I love it. I dont think it is the heavy stuff that messes you up. I think it is the heavy set after set day in and day out. I like to train smarter not harder. I like to set myself up to make slow steady gains for years on end. Those are big weights for around 13 stones. 

I like the way you think.

Let me ask you a question. If you had no injuries would you train in the 8-12 rep range heavy?


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## Cookie

"Let me ask you a question. If you had no injuries would you train in the 8-12 rep range heavy?"

Depends:confused: with what I know now compaired to then I wouldnt train"as"heavy but heavy enough but also I do like to do a lot of sets upto about 32 a bodypart at times so the weights then would have to be dropped,I do a lot of mixing and matching set/rep wise sometimes doing only 4 sets a muscle,but i do think that you need to do multipule sets per bodypart and not just one all out as this i feel places too much enfacis(sic)on going to failure and maybe forced reps(which I hate and never ever do anymore)etc etc.


----------



## winger

I think you can go to failure and not overtrain. I do agree with you on the high volume sets. Dont you think that 10 sets of 10 is boarderline overtraining?


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## Jimmy1

we are never gonna all agree on this training thing as there are sooo many different styles

I've got an idea......lets all do our own thing and then who ever does the best can gloat


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## winger

Jimmy said:


> we are never gonna all agree on this training thing as there are sooo many different styles
> 
> I've got an idea......lets all do our own thing and then who ever does the best can gloat


Lets not and say we did. You cant handle a little debate?

Who ever does the best can gloat. Lets see here I am clean and you are on gear.........Jimmy you fold to easy...........lol


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## Killerkeane

one smart cookie, there is a guy down my gym called Bill.... ah dammit, umm whats his name, ill find out for ya, he was 2001,2002 bodybuilding champion, i bet you any money you know him. Ill find his surname out for ya tommorow.


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## Cookie

winger said:


> I think you can go to failure and not overtrain. I do agree with you on the high volume sets. Dont you think that 10 sets of 10 is boarderline overtraining?


No,I once did 8 sets for 8 reps for 4 exercise for 3 bodyparts a workout 3 xs a week,which works out at a total of 96 sets a workout,I was drugfree and had been for 3 years,and I was growing so much that others thought I was back on the juice.

I now belive in never ever doing forced or negative reps,they are the biggest overtrainers EVER>


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## winger

ONE SMART COOKI said:


> No,I once did 8 sets for 8 reps for 4 exercise for 3 bodyparts a workout 3 xs a week,which works out at a total of 96 sets a workout,I was drugfree and had been for 3 years,and I was growing so much that others thought I was back on the juice.
> 
> I now belive in never ever doing forced or negative reps,they are the biggest overtrainers EVER>


Wow that is allot of sets. Did you have to struggle to get the last rep of 8?

I am just trying to determin how much you were putting into it. You must have been getting some serious sleep. I think the body adapts to everything you throw at it for the most part.


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## Cookie

When doing that system the first 3-4 sets are easyish but you are towing to finish the last 4 sets and by the final set of the group you are practically screaming the place down to get it finished and passout.

I never sleep more than 4 hrs straight and haven`t done for years thanks to ghb screwing my sleep patterns up,so a little word of warning to people out there thinking of trying that route.


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## winger

Well I have 10 minutes till I go do my Jane Fonda 17 minute workout 

I am going to do the rep thing with my twin and I will tell ya how it goes, or doesn't...............lol


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## winger

We did bench and I did 34 reps with minimal rest next set did 19  next set 13, next set 10. Tricepts got blown out.........lol.


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## Killerkeane

i could imagine wingy


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## Killerkeane

Cookie, his name is Bill Young, 2002 bodybu8ilding champion although i dont know what category, he has pictures of himself with dorian yates, flex wheeler and ronnie coleman


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## winger

Killerkeane said:


> Cookie, his name is Bill Young, 2002 bodybu8ilding champion although i dont know what category, he has pictures of himself with dorian yates, flex wheeler and ronnie coleman


Boy what I wouldn't do to rub elbows with those guys  I would barage them with so many questions they would throw me out.......lol. Then post it right here on the board.


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## hackskii

Well, I wanted to comment (not arguing) on the working of the muscle every day and feel that I need to toss some information out there.

Muscles do not grow during training. They grow during recovery. Training initially induces catabolism. Recovery, which can be influenced in many ways, is when anabolism occurs. For an increase in mass, a greater ratio of anabolism must result.

This is why training protocols must be specific to each individual.

If you do chest on lets say Monday with any intensity and then trained chest again on Tuesday you would interrupt the anabolic phase of Chest recovery/growth cycle. In essence stopping the anabolic phase and throwing the chest back into catabolism, or in essence overtraining.

So, you do Chest on Wednesday then you are only doing the same thing putting the chest back into catabolism and stopping the anabolic phase of recovery/growth cycle again.

Overtraining makes the ratio of catabolism higher than the anabolism phase and results in growth can be compromised.


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## Killerkeane

totally agree which is why i didnt do the one i posted. I just train each muslce group once a week, so..

mon-chest

tue-back

wed-legs

thur-should

fri-rest

sat-arms

sun-rest

all supersetted very high intensity, very sore after the first 4 days, but loving every bit of it 

Winger, i will try to squeeze as much info as i can out of him, but i dont want to strangle him of info as he'll get a little p1ssed off, cas he charges for diet anaylysis. But i will get some info out of him, what you want me to ask him?


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## winger

There are 3 different muscle types. I have the the fast twitch 1 muscle type. So for me, heavy weights gives me the best bang for the buck. That is why I couldn't figure out why you guys do so many sets and reps and get results. We are all created equal but with different muscle types................ 

I love this sh1t.


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## winger

Killerkeane said:


> totally agree which is why i didnt do the one i posted. I just train each muslce group once a week, so..
> 
> mon-chest
> 
> tue-back
> 
> wed-legs
> 
> thur-should
> 
> fri-rest
> 
> sat-arms
> 
> sun-rest
> 
> all supersetted very high intensity, very sore after the first 4 days, but loving every bit of it
> 
> Winger, i will try to squeeze as much info as i can out of him, but i dont want to strangle him of info as he'll get a little p1ssed off, cas he charges for diet anaylysis. But i will get some info out of him, what you want me to ask him?


Fcuk the diet we can get that from my bitch Jimmy.............lol Well maybe not now  . Ask him about training. How many sets per bodypart and how often to train. Stroke him and tell him how great he looks and he will butter up real nice. These bodybuilders are all the same


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## Killerkeane

they certainly are, i gotta get a pic of him to show you guys, he's a nice guy, his wife is a bodybuilder too and just as good. There son is going to be blessed.


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## Killerkeane

im going down gym tommorow so ill ask him, when he supersets Winger, He SPRINTS between each exercise and cuts rest time down to 30 secs. He is in and out in under 20 mins i would say


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## winger

Thats funny because I dont know anybody like that........lol

Its more like 17 minutes.........lol times 2


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## Cookie

Killer m8 never heard of him as I dont really follow the scene that much nowadays as far as shows etc go,I just dont like the physiques anymore and knowing what I do all I see when i see them on stage is just drug abuse,imo.

Winger,a lot of reps there bet your chest is sore today,but what I was suggesting was only doing 1 rep first set then rest 20 secs then do 2 reps second set rest 20 secs and do 3 reps third set and just keep increasing the number of reps by one each and every set till you hit failure so as an example you fail at 11 reps which means you have done 11 sets,but the weight selection must be a weight you can normally handle for 10 full reps.

hacki bud,i`m not working the muscle everyday only for three days then giving it 3 full days to recuperate,as for recover outside of the gym yes I do agree with you but what I am aiming to do is use the extra workouts to aid recovery by keeping the muscle pumped with blood and nutrients,I get the feelling that you all seem to think that I do each workout to failure which is wrong only the FIRST one is a hard one the other two are NICE & STEADY,i feel your reading into it all too much and have had your heavy duty 8-12 reps for one all out set stapled to the side of you heads for tooo long and it is restricting your perseption of what I am trying to get across

If the idea of training the same bodypart the following day is such a bad thing,"THEN WHY DO THE BULGARIAN OLYMPIC WEIGHTLIFTERS FOLLOW IT"?to aid their recovery.

I have a little booklet somewhere around that is a bulgarian weightlifting course for banging on 10lb of weight in 10 days and if I were to put that training routine up you and your brother would probably die of heart attacks:eek:

killer bud,you`ve been sore for 4 days,why what is the point in that,If I am sore for more than 2 days I know I have done too much training,"IF YOU ARE SORE THE MUSCLE IS IN A SEVERE STATE OF DAMAGE AND STRESS"in other words CATABOLISM ON A LARGE SCALE.

Now with this 3 in a row routine I hit it hard day one sore day 2 so lower the intensity,on day 3 the soreness is less than on day 2 and by day 4 after 3 consecutive workouts "NO SORENESS WHAT SO EVER"and thats after all those sets in 3 days straight.

Something positive must be happening deep down because my metabolism is up I feel full of energy and the muscles look harder,either that or this is all just a wonderfull dream


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## winger

You are so intertaining when you type 

Yea I wanted to try the 1 rep working my way up. I totally understand the routine but I had to touch chest and back in 17 minutes and if I did your routine I dont think I would have enough time. I will try it for sure though soon. As for the reps that I did yesturday I am not sore one bit. Did feel like I looked bigger all day though  .

I also understand your 3 day in a row routine. First day intense and the next 2 days are flushing and pushing new blood in to feed the muscle and removing the lactic acids. That is why you are not sore. Kinda simple its not rocket science. Believe it or not we are not that brain dead.......................easy Jimmy dont answer that 

Killer is still kinda new so he is still learning and what better place with you here osc 



> I have a little booklet somewhere around that is a bulgarian weightlifting course for banging on 10lb of weight in 10 days and if I were to put that training routine up you and your brother would probably die of heart attacks


A weight lifting course by itself cant do that without a perfect diet.


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## hackskii

Oh Cookie, I love you and I do understand what you mean.

I only post stuff like that as if someone reads your routine and follows it with little understanding then overtraining will occur.

I am not trying to dispute nor argue with you but allow the other readers insight to all kinds of thought. If someone reads into this stuff wrong without asking questions then injury, overtraining and time waisted can happen. We dont want this do we?

I have not read the Bulgarian thing but I know what you are saying let me elaborate on something that you might find interesting.

Lets say you buy a little pig. It is your pet and you love it and pick it up and hold it every day. Every day you pick up this pig. now after a year your pig is 100 lbs. You still pick it up. Now after 2 years it is 200 lbs and you still pick it up.

Every day you pick up this pig (heck you dont know any diffrent).

Now after 3 years this pig is 300 lbs and you would still be able to pick this pig up.

Now if you never picked up this pig before picking up a 300 lb pig would be really hard.

Another example: Fat people. Have you ever noticed how massive their calves are?

I mean really fat people like over 300 lbs. I have seen girls with probably 20" calves and I never really understood this. But they dont walk far, they dont exercise but they have massive calves.

I think it might be because you have alot of fast twitch fibers in the calves. Or type 2 muscle fibers. These have the most potential for muscle growth. In essence the fat people (without them knowing) just built up their calves from massive weight bearing loads on those poor little (not now) calves.

These now huge strong calves cant be used for lets say long distance running as they would explode from the pump. Failure would occur.

Or you cant train to be along distance runner and try powerlifting.

You cant train to be a power lifter and end up being a long distance runner.

Diffrent training phylosophies are used for diffrent things.

Geneticaly speaking, I can never be a professional basket ball player as I lack the height. So my genetics better suit me to be lets say a wrestler instead. I was never good at long distance running either.

So tailoring a routine to suit your lifestyle/job or whatever needs to be considered.

Also I have a time consideration and dont want to spend any more time in the gym than I have to. If I could get in and out in 5 minutes then I would, even if it was just to keep what I have and not get any stronger or bigger.

I do have a good article on fiber type ratios and how to figure out which percentages each one of us has (all diffrent) without a biopsy. Good article but i have to type it up, it is by Author L. Rea It will take some time.


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## Cookie

winger said:


> You are so intertaining when you type
> 
> Yea I wanted to try the 1 rep working my way up. I totally understand the routine but I had to touch chest and back in 17 minutes.A weight lifting course by itself cant do that without a perfect diet.


You probably could have still done chest and back in 17mins as you could have combined them both together and done 1 rep chin 1 rep press superset style,imagine the pump and the cardio shock in that one:eek: oohh baby bring it on.

As for the booklet it does contain the diet as well and some really interesting info regarding diet,but we`ll save that for another day a master never reveals all his secrets

Hacki:cool: yep heard the one about the pig before but I heard it was a cow that was lifted must be a lot of farmers lifting livestock in your country

As for the fatties yea noticed it a lot,but you also have to wonder as well is it not just the weight they are carrying but also how the have to walk to carry that weight,slow and steady with a full rocking motion on their feet,now watch a skinny walk fast and sharp hardly any movement in the ankle so not as much call for all the fibres to contract.

If you like my writting style wait till I get my bloody booklet finished you`ll love the wit in that(hope the board dont mind me plugging it).


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## hackskii

I once read that 70% of your max worked 90% of the muscle fibers.

I still feel that light weights have their purpose, like for injury, or new lifters getting their form down and developing their connective tissues, rotation from lifting heavy all the time and so forth.

But I dont think that light weights for a guy that has been lifting for 6 months is the way to go.

Let me type up the article and post it, it will be an interesting read, even for the master

You can plug on this board. Not a problem at all. Plug away Master


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## winger

With each plug you have to put in some meat (info) too 

You will have to ask Jimmy about the animal stuff..............lol


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## Killerkeane

lol, jimmy gets the blunt all the time 

i read what you said cookie, and it does make sense, i havnt been training long and open to as many suggestions as possible, i even know that i am overtraining. But being a typcial lad my age (17) i want it all far too quickly. I have a lot of time off now, so much spare time in fact that i actually want to spend a large majority of time down the gym, so what do you think can i get maximum results and i mean maximum results. There must be a much more effective way in gaining muscle than a standard 3-4day split????

Yeah i know, 3 day split is considered best because you are allowing the muscle to grow and recurperate, and what i am doing hitting it 5 days a week, is just constantly putting it into a catobolic state.

I know myself i have the compeltly wrong attitude to bodybuilding in terms of going against common sense. I always do it, because i have to work harder than everybody else

And i do work harder than everybody else, i eat more, i sleep more, i always squeeze those extra 3 half reps and getting that extra burn.

To sum up.... Bill youung the guy i was telling you about suggests the 3/4 day split because he says my testorone levels are on a high and i will get maximum gains out of that but i disagree, i want to work harder than anybody else in that gym (obviously not taking gear), and i need some professional input to correct me on this, please if you think 3/4 day split for me is good then say so, but i have the time, i have the food, i have the mindset, i have the money and i have the dedication!! Just need the info that many guys on this board give me which is excellent, but when it comes to bodybuilding there is always some pulling in different directions that divides my mind a little.


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## hackskii

Hey killer, if you are really sore then I would say you were overtraining.

Example, I had a bodybuilding friend that had a bet with me on doing calves. I told him that I never work calves and he bet me that I could not use a step and do 50 slow all the way down and all the way up calf raises. I could not use my arm but only to ballance me. He lost the bet and i did 60 reps nice and slow full range.

For 5 days I could not walk. If I sat down they would just tighten up and when I stood up I looked like a guy with muscular distrophy.

I would say that this is overtraining. That kindof training can cause injury.

Now if I did lets say 10 reps a week starting week 1 and continue to add 5 reps for the next 10 weeks there would not be any pain and I would be able to do probably 100 reps by then.

Listen to your body, sometimes it whispers and sometimes it yells at you.

Cookie, I am kindof sore today and the whole chest is sore just not the front delts or the pectorial major


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## Killerkeane

i agree hacks, i know i am now anyway. I am a person that reads, reads, learns learns and learns some more. I know that i am a hardgainer if i like it or not. And so i am hitting every part of my body as hard as i possibly can 5 days a week!!!! 4 days of which ALL IN A ROW, what the fcuk was i thinking??? Im not gonna grow from that ffs. When you train a muscle, recovery usually takes 2-3 days and then it actually stops growing. SO the other 3-4 days are wasted and will probably shrink before they grow, which is why i have decided a workout using HST principles is the best, as ill be hitting each muscle group 3 times a week, and it will be progressive increases in weight, resulting in my brain making me grow, making perfect sense? which is why i have another suggested workout   

MONDAY/THURSDAY

BENCH PRESS

12 REPS

10 REPS

10 REPS

8 REPS

6 REPS

DUMBELL FLYES

12 REPS

10 REPS

10 REPS

BARBELL CURL

12 REPS

10 REPS

10 REPS

CONCENTRATION CURL

12 REPS

10 REPS

10 REPS

CLOSE GRIP BENCH PRESS

12 REPS

10 REPS

10 REPS

FRENCH PRESS

12 REPS

10 REPS

10 REPS

TUESDAY/FRIDAY

BENT OVER ROW

12 REPS

10 REPS

10 REPS

8 REPS

6 REPS

LAT PULL-DOWNS

12 REPS

10 REPS

10 REPS

MILITARY PRESS

12 REPS

10 REPS

10 REPS

SIDE LATERALS

12 REPS

10 REPS

10 REPS

SHRUGS

12 REPS

10 REPS

10 REPS

8 REPS

SQUATS LEG PRESS

12 REPS

10 REPS

10 REPS

8 REPS

LEG EXTENSION

12 REPS

10 REPS

10 REPS

8 REPS

LEG CURL

12 REPS

10 REPS

10 REPS

8 REPS


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## Killerkeane

i am definetly overtraining, this pretty much has slapped me in the face about it.

It is now Saturday night, i trained legs on Wednesday and they are still tremendously sore around the inner thighs.


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## hackskii

I just think you are not used to doing all those exercises.

I dont think the routine looks that bad.

I think you might want to drop your intensity till you get used to the lifts tho.

Yah muscle does take time to recover and 3 days will be good.

But the central nervous system takes 5 days to recover and if you are pushing really hard on the 8 rep sets then you might get some fetigue.

Keep doing what you are doing but drop the intensity for a couple of weeks till you get used to the lifts.

I would take some creatine too and drink lots of water.

Listen to your body.


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## Cookie

Well killer me young little jack russell you want to train do you and you would like alittle advice from the cookie:cool:

Theres a couple of routes we can take and yes your freind is right your test levels are sky high and you should take advantage of this so this is my idea.

Day 1 workout 1

Chest back shoulders

Chest bench press to the neck/dips/incline dumbbell press/flyes

Back bent over rows/pulldown to front/low cable rows/chins

Shoulders bent over laterals/side laterals/upright rows

Day 2 workout 1

Triceps biceps forearms

Triceps barbell extensions/bench dips/kickbacks/pressdown

Biceps barbell preacher curls/alternate dumbbell curls/wide grip body drag curls/lying dumbbells curls

Forearms wrist curls/hammer curls/reverse wrist curls

Day 3 workout 1

Thighs hams calves

Thighs/hams sissy squat/lying leg curl/wide stane front squats/leg extensions

Calves seated toe raises/standing toes raises/donkey calve raises/toe presses.

Day 4 rest.

Then repeat the whole sequence again.

Right the nuts and bolts of it all.

As you can see I have put in workout one(you will be training twice a day)so on the second workout of the day you will do exactly what you have done in the first workout but with considerably less weight(read that again)you will be doing 1 set per exercise but you will be doing all 4 exercises straight after on another(giant set)with no rest between sets(so set everything up before hand)and 2 minutes rest between bodyparts.

You will be doing 12 reps per set and holding each contraction(top of movement)for a count of 2.Thighs hams and forearms will be 15 reps per set and calves 20 reps.

You will not perform any forced dropped or negative reps,these are know band if following the above,and you will train to about 80% of failure(which hurts)in each set.The body cannot train to total failure as it would just rupture and die so get that thought out of your head and you will go a long way.

You will start this after having a full 7 days of training and supplements to give the body a complete rest and clear out and you will follow this for no more than 3 weeks.

Any questions just flameI mean fire away

And hacki your right 70% does work 90% so all this bull about training to failure and beyond with this and that is just garbage,can you see why I train the way I doI keep control of my intensity and when it hurts I put it down so as not to overtax the muscles in a single shot:cool:

Train dont strain

Stimulate dont annhilate


----------



## winger

Here comes the cookie cutter...............just kidding.

Would it be better to swap day 2 with day 3? The only reason why I ask that is because that way you dont get so much overlap hitting the indirect muscle twice in a row and allowing for more recouperation. Hey I am trying to learn also.


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## Killerkeane

right, that looks ok. Why should i be repeating that workout again in the same day at a lesser weight??? How much lesser weight should i use? With correct diet, would i expect to gain a lot?

Cheers for the reply guys, i love you


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## winger

The purpose of the second workout in the same day is to flush and fill the muscle with fresh blood to actually help recoup and heal the damage of the last workout, but you better let cookie answer that. I am in the infancy stage


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## Killerkeane

well your not allowed to be Mr Wingy, your my idol 

could this be the workout killerkeane has been striving for? Tune in tommorow folks when Cookie delivers the verdict


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## winger

Killerkeane said:


> well your not allowed to be Mr Wingy, your my idol
> 
> could this be the workout killerkeane has been striving for? Tune in tommorow folks when Cookie delivers the verdict


I feel honored but after all the reading I think you know more then me because I have to relearn everything I thought I knew...............lol

I still consider myself strong and I dont have any injuries. That and a few buck can buy you a cup of coffee


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## Killerkeane

Nah you know what your about, just see it as widening your horizons.


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## hackskii

Killerkeane said:


> could this be the workout killerkeane has been striving for?


Or not!

This goes against what I have learned myself too.

It doesnt make sense to me but nothing does anymore.

I will speak my mind but feel your first workout would be better.

There is evedance to support serum test levels being at their highest during like lets say a 40 minute workout once a day.

Tell you what!

Do what ever Cookie says for his cycle/routine (time and exercises) Then lets say after 8 weeks do what hackskii and winger suggests.

You can be our guiney pig

Fair enough?


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## winger

That is so cool. I suggest you take some time off first. That way your body will be receptive to the routines. 

If training heavy dosn't do it then why does Ronnie Coleman! The Unbelievable! Do 800+ pound deadlifts 5 weeks out from the Olympia? He is the biggest man that walks the planet. He sure looks good


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## Cookie

The second workout will(as stated)help with the healing proccess and also help to take advantage of your bodies abillity to secrete lots and lots of nice lovely hormones with you being so young,so why not let it work to your adavntage:cool: It will also help to curb your natural inbuilt urge and impatience to overtrain at a single workout and do way too much even though you feel ok at the time,hence the feeling sore 4+ days after a workout.

The workouts should not take you any longer than 30mins each so no chit chat just head down and "CONCENTRATE"and forget what is going on around you.

Take a full week off as suggested and I can gaurantee that during and after each workout you will feel the difference compaired to the bombing and blasting sessions you have been doing,you will also feel and look bigger for longer after each workout which means that the muscles are holding onto the blood(pump)longer which is very positive as have you ever noticed after a bombing session you get up the next day too sore to flex and flat,no sign of definition etc,the muscle is just surounded my excess fluid due to all the stress hormones that have been released due to the excessive stress you have put it under.

And dont do this routine for more than 3 weeks then have 5 days rest then try a totally different approach,reason?this helps the body release lots of yummy growth hormone

As for how much you will gain,forget that thought period,throw the tape and scales out of the window and go by what you see,anybody can get on a pair of scales and see an increase but what is that increase?does that increase tell you exactly were it has gone"NO"but the mirror does,your a young pup with lots of "gusto"just try to learn to take control of it and this alone will help to propel you forward more than you ever thought possible

Alittle example(me)when i first stated trainig I like you wanted to train all the time so I did 5 times a week in the first year I put on 2 stone,I was listening to my body even though I didnt know it at the time,am I a genetic freak"NO"I just had this natural inbuilt mechanism,"biofeedback"like we all do as time progreesed and my impatience kicked in I started to not listen anymore and the gains just slowed and it became frustating always chasing that extra pound of tissue,now 17yrs later I am back to were I started "listening"and it is slowly working again the gains come here and there I enjoy training again and get a buzz when I see in the mirror a tiny improvement at the end of the week.All in all the game plan is to once again attain the shape and grace I once had at my very first show,yes first show,because after looking at the tape many times that was when my physique looked its most beautifull symmetrical and in perfect proportion.

I have quite a few guys that i help out over the net and have 2 apprenticess(sp)over at bio each with different goals,one has followed a simular routine to the above one but with modifications in diet and supps to help him to loose 2 stone of flab in about 4 months whilst still increasing his strength at an alarming rate and he`s natural.

The key to a successfull program is diet then training then supps,so to gain lean weight like you want keep protein and good fats going in first and foremost and then add carbs in the form of fresh fruit and veg.

good luck.


----------



## winger

That is why we love you  I like how you are here for us to learn. 

He also needs a good diet. He is one of those ones that has a very hard time gaining weight. This is after eating everything in sight. After you are done we could just use this thread to write a book.............lol


----------



## Cookie

Write a book,

I`ve only been here since the end of june and all ready hit over 80 posts

You lot are like bloody vampires sucking the life(info)outta me.lol.


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## hackskii

Not me, I am in disagreement.

But that is ok.

I feel that if you dont hit it with enough intensity then you wont get the gains.

If you dont hit it with enough intensity and then hit it again with not enough intensity then you still wont make the gains.

fine line between undertraining and overtraining.

Those overlapping movements from the chest and back followed by the next day of bicep and tricep will have the arms back in a catabolic state and the rebuild process will be halted.

I have never read or seen this type of routine before.

I am actually for the higher intensity training.

But maybe I know when to back things off and take extra time off or know my body better than most.

I trained each body part 3 times a week when I was 18-25 and was lean. I looked good but did not have the strength nor not nearly the size I have now and I am twice that age.

Now if i was dieting down then I would hit the body more with less intensity and higher reps.

Or if I predominitly had a higher percentage of the slower twitch fibers that again I do more reps.

I feel that from lifting heavy for years there is reason for me to believe that my muscles have adapted. I think my fiber type ratios have been altered from lifting heavier for long periods of time.

I dont lift heavy all the time now and when I say heavy I dont mean anything under 8 reps. I usually dont go below that as I dont feel it is worth the injury.

If I quit lifting for a couple of months i still keep my size for the most part.

If I did reps and stayed lets say pumped all the time then take 2 months off and I would lose alot.

You dont grow in the gym you grow outside of the gym and this is done during the sleep process. We dont heal when we are awake.

Connective tissues mend during rest.

Re-taxing tissues during the mending process only stops the mending process.

Recouperation process can be altered with things like natural and pharmicutical drugs but mother nature does what she does.


----------



## Cookie

Quote"I have never read or seen this type of routine before"Quote

Hacki are you telling me that you have never heard or read any of the courses manuals of the greatest trainer ever to grace this planet of ours,I would have thought a man of your age would recognise the system.


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## hackskii

Is this the training system of the World Famous One Smart Cookie?

Oh, yes! I have taught that myself!

But after years of refinment I have a new and improved verson of that famous routine, which I have developed and now charge for my personal training services.

I have some professional bodybuilders that I train and they wont let me give their names out so other pro's will use me.

I dont have time for the amature stuff it just does not pay.

I only deal with professionals as this is how I earn my living.

Once in a while I check the boards out and see how my #2 competitor is comming along. I dont want him catching up and all, YA KNOW!

Still think if you swapped around the days the ol Jack Russel Terrier will get better results.

Hey, you never sent me the detox diet you promised!

Just do a little copy and paste and lets check it out.

Just got together 2 pretty good articles on Muscle Fiber Types.

Pretty good but one counterdicts the other. Has to do with percentages and how to find out which muscle groups.

One says take the 1 rep max and use 50% and see how many reps you can do.

Anything over 10 is slow twitch.

The other article is the same way but uses the 85% rule of thumb and i think this is more accurate. The lower the rep the higher the fast twitch.

Good reading but then they toss in some BS and reck the article.


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## Killerkeane

i love this thread, such information  I understood all of that, it all makes sense, cheeers cookie and the guys for the info but i am still perplexed, I think hypertrophy will be the best bet now for the next 8 weeks, but i will be more than happy to be a guniea pig!!!!!!!!!!

On one condition!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You guys give me something that will put on the mass, i dont want to waste this precious time!!! I want go grow!!


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## winger

I just saw on 20/20 or 60 minutes they are talking about a special diet for detoxing. Some other Doctor refuted it and said if your organs are working fine then there is no need to do a detox. He also said to cook most of the vegitables to make them more viable.

I feel the best way to gauge your progress is to keep a jounal and if you are getting stronger then you are doing the right thing. When I say stronger that might be 3 more reps on a high rep workout. More weight same reps or more reps same weight. Dosn't matter.



> You lot are like bloody vampires sucking the life(info)outta me.lol.


Just dont do it to much because I dont want you to overtrain the biggest muscle.........lol


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## winger

Killerkeane said:


> i love this thread, such information  I understood all of that, it all makes sense, cheeers cookie and the guys for the info but i am still perplexed, I think hypertrophy will be the best bet now for the next 8 weeks, but i will be more than happy to be a guniea pig!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> On one condition!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> You guys give me something that will put on the mass, i dont want to waste this precious time!!! I want go grow!!


That is done mostly by diet my little Jack Russell Terrior.............OSC 

Have Panthro or Jimmy help you on that. Oh and that one guy what is his name.......Humm.......somthing cookie?


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## Killerkeane

right so here's the deal, i try cookies routine for 3 weeks did you say?? I record the results taking b4 + after pics, stats. Then i try wingy's and hackskii's routine.

I tell you one thing boys, i will do exactly what you say and eat 3000 cals ++++

SO no pressure  The race is on and im the pig, make me squelle!!!


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## winger

Killerkeane said:


> right so here's the deal, i try cookies routine for 3 weeks did you say?? I record the results taking b4 + after pics, stats. Then i try wingy's and hackskii's routine.
> 
> I tell you one thing boys, i will do exactly what you say and eat 3000 cals ++++
> 
> SO no pressure  The race is on and im the pig, make me squelle!!!


Now why would you say that on this forum when you know damn well Jimmy is out there.....................lol times 2 

He loves those farm animals


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## Killerkeane

i forgot the american pies had a little rivarly going with cookie


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## winger

Killerkeane said:


> i forgot the american pies had a little rivarly going with cookie


It's all about information. That is why I like the guy so much. Different views.


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## hackskii

Killer not 3 weeks that wont work. Try it for like 8 weeks.

Then try ours.

I dont think you will get the mass you are looking for with "the other guys routine", what was his name, anyway you can try both.


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## winger

I think he is going to try sycokids routine first. He should, what does he have to loose?


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## Cookie

Quote"Is this the training system of the World Famous One Smart Cookie?"Quote

Nope,I`m only famous in my own mind

Quote"Hey, you never sent me the detox diet you promised"Quote

Thats right I didnt,but if you remember I said I would send it to you when I knew you were well again to use it and not till then as I dont want you trying it and keelling over with that dodgey ticker of yours:eek:

Quote"Killer not 3 weeks that wont work"Quote

3 weeks with this one and then I`ll give you another one for another 3 weeks ok?

Diet + supps wise pm me all your details and an email addy I can send you all the info to,but be warned it wont be easy as I`m a hard taskmaster:cool:

Quote"i forgot the american pies had a little rivarly going with cookie"Quote

RAFLMFAO,bye bye americans pies

As for the routine hacki it is based on one by a bloke who had trained 3 mr olympia winners that I know of,arnold something or other,frank boy he looks ripped zane and larry flipping heck whats his name ring any bells who it is?


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## Killerkeane

yes, the bells are ringing.

Right so lets get this ball rolling, keeping in mind cookie i want mass, mass, mass and bulk! I'll give you the full 8 weeks, then its winger and hackskii's turn. Is that ok with you guys? Just make sure it is sensible and ill do it.


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## winger

ONE SMART COOKI said:


> larry flipping heck whats his name ring any bells who it is?


Moe, Larry and Curley?


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## Cookie

winger said:


> Moe, Larry and Curley?


Now your being silly,act your age not your shoe size

As to the answer if didnt already know(which I think you did)

Vince Gironda


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## winger

ONE SMART COOKI said:


> and larry flipping heck whats his name ring any bells who it is?


Larry Scott. But thats just me though. 

I thought it was Joe Weider.................lol. Joe tried to take credit for everything. Pretty pathetic actually. I wonder what he was paying Arnold to be his poster boy. They even used to edits Joes pic to make him more muscular.


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## hackskii

Frank Zane, Larry Scott, Franco Columbo you also left one out Lou Ferrigno

I always liked the way those guys looked. They looked muscular and athletic, maybe not Franco but he was one of the original strong men.

Dave Draper kindof broke the mold. I feel that Arnold copied some of his posting techniques.

I followed those guys more than I follow the guys now.

I dont think when they give out routines that they really do what they write. I have seen some of them and it looks like overtraining to me.


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## hackskii

Here is an arm routine by: Vince Gironda

Metabolic Stimulation (Breathing Squats):

Squats, heels about 20 inches wide, knees a comfortable width about 24 inches. In the erect position, take 2 very deep breaths and hold the second breath and squat (back straight) and return to upright position and exhale. Perform 3 sets of 15 repeats, 2 to 3 minutes rest between sets. This gets your adrenal activated for your arm program.

Biceps:

Stand in front of the dumbbell rack and pick up a pair of 15# dumbbells. and with palms facing thighs, curl left dumbbell slowly turning palm up and bending to the left. Watching dumbbell travel up to shoulder, hand should be outside deltoid at contracted position. At this point, turn your head to the right and start to curl right dumbbell simultaneously.

As you curl the right dumbbell, lower the left dumbbell back to starting position. Counting with your left hand, complete four repeats only. Next step: put dumbbells back on rack and take 2 deep breaths and shake your arms and pick up the next heavier set and do 4 repeats.

Proceed until you have curled the heaviest set of dumbbells you can handle (creative cheating is ok). Next step: work down the rack to your starting set. That's it for bicep. Don't do any other bicep work.

Triceps:

Barbell pullover and press: lie on your back on a bench with your head slightly off and end so you can lower barbell below head. Take a 12" grip (over-hand) lower barbell down and back over head and slightly below bench level, with elbows in and up, pull barbell over face to low pec line.

At this point, swing elbows out wide and press barbell up and forward to arms length over stomach (forward press). Lower barbell back down to chest and roll elbows in, parallel position (4 sets of 12 reps).


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## Killerkeane

lou ferrigno was awesome, i have read some very interesting things about him. Might post some pics tommorow just to show.


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## winger

Killerkeane said:


> lou ferrigno was awesome, i have read some very interesting things about him. Might post some pics tommorow just to show.


Met Lou twice and shook his hand twice. I love in the movie Pumping Iron were his dad was training him and he said "no more" and his dad said something and Lou pounded out about another 3. Kinda funny actually.

I even met Tim Belknap when he was on the top. He also had nice big legs. He is kinda short about 5'7" about but he was wide. He used to hit his weak bodyparts on sunday. Met the barbarian brothers at the California Muscle Classic. That was at Knots berry farm. Most impressed. One walked around in cowboy boots like he owned that place. Probably because he did. They never competed but boasted about there reverse grip bench.

Rory Liedamyer and Mary Roberts trained at the gym I trained at. Awsome gym. It was a warehouse of weights.

Met Dave Johns at the drive in movies and he was buying popcorn with his shirt off. I talkied to him and he said the key was 20 reps. I didn't believe him but who was I to contradict one of the best builds. Black genetics, I could only wish.

My favorite of all time. Serge Nubre (sp). He was friend of the owner of another gym. He wore a tent cover so I couldn't really see how good he looked. Smaller than most in the waist. In fact if you check him out the abs look like there is no room for them and they are stagered. Not the normal six pack. The abs look like they were off set. Best build in my opinion.

In the past I dont think that Joe Weider wanted a black guy endorsing his products. That is why the last Olympia that Arnold won was a gift to Arnold. He didn't deserve it and the crowd wasn't happy eather. Sorry for the hijack but that is all history from the old timer....................Dont go there Jimmy.............lol


----------



## Killerkeane

was that true about arnie not derserving his last mr.olympia title? Geez i never knew that. You are so lucky to meet Lou face to face, i would love to meet some bodybuilders like that, totally awesome.


----------



## winger

Killerkeane said:


> was that true about arnie not derserving his last mr.olympia title? Geez i never knew that. You are so lucky to meet Lou face to face, i would love to meet some bodybuilders like that, totally awesome.


It is awsome expecially when they are bulking. They look so impressively big.

There was this little black guy with great genetics and big tries that came in to our gym and wanted to start working out. He used to ask me all kinds of questions. His name was Jay Jay Marsh. That guy took so much gear to get big but boy did he also look great.


----------



## Cookie

Cant remember franco being there but Vince actually called arnold a fat bastard nobody when arnold turned up at the gym after weider made him go(arnold walked into the gym with a big chip on his shoulder and rather cocky)he walked out did the universe i think were zane kicked his fat ass and he went back cap in hand to vince and the rest his history.

The only people weider ever trained was himself and his brother,trainer of champions my ass maker of money more like.

I for got to mention ron love went there so did don howarth with the massively wide shoulders and boulder sized arms,bob birdsong,mohamed makkawy(should ahve won 2 olympias in my oppinion)Frank zane had his own key so he could train out of hours away from everybody else,I could go on but wont bore you all with the details.

Serge nubret was awesome and he used really light weights and tons and tons of sets both pre contest and off season.

They did look much better back then you just have to look at the way the muscles look to see that,the shape the hardness and even the fibres running through the muscles,nit like nowadays the pros are just bloody ugly no shape no structure but who am I to say what they should do its their lives they are playing with.

Arnie was gifted the 80 olympia and franco was gifted the 81 olympia,the sport started to go down hill from then on as far as the judging was concered.


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## Killerkeane

thats a sad read, i wasnt around when all this happened, so this is history to me. I always appreciated arnie for his bodybuilding efforts but always thought he was a big head, but i would be too if i had a body like that. I think what cookie said is spot on, bodybuilders of the earlier days had awesome bodies, massive thick wide shoulders with tiny waists, awesome, simply awesome. And so are many of today's bodybuilders without question, but symmetry and proportion are lost with many today's cas i personally think they concentrate on mass a little too much, like dorian yates lats, wtf???? It is incomprehensible they could actually grow to that size, totally amazing but who am i to judge and decide what defines a bodybuilder, they are all awesome i cant argue!


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## hackskii

Their waists were much smaller back then. The Dave Draper did the side pose and his stomach looked like it was touching his back bone.

Arnold too.

The guys now days have way to big of waists. They probably tape over 40"

Chest is probably 60"


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## Killerkeane

guys you must look at this, this is the most awesome pic you will ever see in my opinion......


----------



## winger

I feel it has become more chemical than anything else. They did a double blind study of 3 groups.

First group did steroids and lifted weights.

Second group did steroids only.

Third group only lifted weights.

Well you guessed it. The group that did gear and lifted gained more muscle.

The second group gained more muscle than the third group and didn't even train. Enough of the obvious.

I have to give credit to Jock for posting this pick. Dont know were he got it but it is awsome.  Thanks Jockmeister.............sorry for the butcher


----------



## hackskii

Arnold all the way.

Hey, he is my Governor. He called some senate guys girly men!

Man that shook the political world right here at home!

Upset like you cant believe.

The guy (Arnold) was trying to ballance the already late budget for California and the legislature was not cooperating. Arnold went to the people and started bashing pretty good the politisions and that sent shockwaves.

He is soooo freaking tough and I trust him too.

He is not really a politicion, he talks tough, is tough and I like that guy as my Governor.

I just wish he would stop by and have some pints with me and pick some avacado's and lemons from my tree


----------



## Cookie

Arnold will probably live a lot longer than coleman aswell,but you cant just blame the guys shooting all that stuff the judges are to blame aswell for awarding the trophys to those will ugly looking physiques and those that abuse the most are usually the ones that dont have the genetics or knowledge or cant be bothered to do it the right way and are looking for the quick way out of it,the moto nowadays is "if it wont grow just stick a needle in it"glad my day has come and gone could have evr pumped that much stuff into myself and one things for sure my 2 boys arent being bbers ever not whilst the sport is like it is.

Killer that diet wil be with you by the ned of the week if your still intersted ok.


----------



## winger

ONE SMART COOKI said:


> Arnold will probably live a lot longer than coleman aswell,but you cant just blame the guys shooting all that stuff the judges are to blame aswell for awarding the trophys to those will ugly looking physiques and those that abuse the most are usually the ones that dont have the genetics or knowledge or cant be bothered to do it the right way and are looking for the quick way out of it,the moto nowadays is "if it wont grow just stick a needle in it"glad my day has come and gone could have evr pumped that much stuff into myself and one things for sure my 2 boys arent being bbers ever not whilst the sport is like it is.
> 
> Killer that diet wil be with you by the ned of the week if your still intersted ok.


Dorian Yates last Olympia proved that OSC. That guy got ugly.


----------



## Cookie

winger said:


> Dorian Yates last Olympia proved that OSC. That guy got ugly.


 A man with great drive and determination but he just went too far and the rest following just probably thought that the only way to catch him was to take anything and everything,sad to say but bbing went backwards(drugs wise)when dorian came to the front.


----------



## winger

ONE SMART COOKI said:


> A man with great drive and determination but he just went too far and the rest following just probably thought that the only way to catch him was to take anything and everything,sad to say but bbing went backwards(drugs wise)when dorian came to the front.


I totally agree. I think who ever has the best chemist has an advantage


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## hackskii

No, I think who ever has the best chemist and the best genetics and the best tollerance for gear will end up on top.

Some people cant take gear, look at Big Ed and myself and yourself bro

Big Ed had the highest cholesterol probably the Dr. ever saw. Was so high that they admitted him strait away to the hospital.

Now he is back on the gear and doing cardio. Clueless! He will no doubt die big tho.


----------



## Cookie

If I could turn back the clock I would and probably still do some gear but to be honest I would stick to what I did in my early years and do 4 weeks of orals only and have 8 weeks off and just go for gaining a pound or so in each cycle,nowadays if they dont hit a stone or more they think they hadnt taken enough.

When you look back and see what larry scott acheived in size and shape and winning the olympia on only 10mg of dianabol aday just makes you think a little about how much we really need and the answer not as much as we thought.

A bit off extra reading for you all enjoy

*The Ultimate Decision: Bodybuilder or Weightlifter*

*
*By Ron Kosloff N/C of NSP Research Nutrition

You are going to come to a crossroad in our game where you are going to have to decide whether you want to be a bodybuilder or a weightlifter. A bodybuilder sculpts the body to make each and every muscle stand out. If Vince Gironda's method is used, all four heads are worked to really make the muscle take shape, have definition, and aesthetics. A weightlifter (tugger, swinger, puller&#8230;you know what I mean) endeavours to have a large ego as well as large muscles. To my way of thinking, weightlifting exercises are a conglomeration of cheating movements.

For instance, a bench press is a cheating exercise where you use about six (6) muscles. Plant you feet on the floor, arch your back, and immediately you are using the terrous major muscle. You also put your thumbs around the bar (this should never be done -- you should always use a palm grip) and immediately you use the forearms. Now you're using your back and your forearms as well. Once you arch your back and get your feet in a planted position, primarily the exercise is inner deltoid. When you do this, you are using your biceps and triceps. So you're using roughly six muscles including the pectorals to so-called lift the weight, never really developing any muscle, never shaping or sculpting it.

As I said earlier, you should never put your thumbs around the bar. When you do, in any exercise, you will bring your forearms into play. As an example when working your biceps, half of the exercise will be forearms and the other half is biceps. That's why people say to me, "Every time I do curls, I feel it in my forearms." That's right, because you are wrapping your thumbs under the bar, which is called a palm grip, or a false grip.

Of course, if you do want to be a weightlifter, tugger, and what not, you will have to realize that sooner or later you are going to injure every joint, muscle, ligament, and tendon in your body. All for sake of saying, "I'm a power lifter and I can lift 400 pounds." It's not going to get you any muscle shape. It will, however, cause you lots of pain, and it will only get worse as you age.

With most power lifters, diet is thrown to the wind because they eat anything and everything. Technically, the more you weigh the more you can lift. You will have to ask yourself if that's how you want to look, or do you want to look like a bodybuilder? This is the ultimate decision that you're going to have to make.

When I first got into the game, I was a member of a YMCA. I would go there to swim and shoot pool once in a while. Occasionally, I would see these really big fellows come in. They were huge. I soon found out that they were weightlifters. I went to the weightlifting room to observe and was just standing around and one of them said to me, "Come on in, we'll show you how to lift." I thought, "Oh boy!!! This looks good to me."

Most people who lift weights have some sort of an inadequacy complex. I won't say inferiority complex, but they feel inadequate and their self-esteem is low. I knew mine was. I had always been extremely slender. They showed me all of these exercises and I was thrilled. Naturally, I couldn't lift the amount that they were lifting because they were much older than I, but I made an attempt. I thought this was how you attained a decent body because I had seen pictures of Steve Reeves. I never knew how he worked out. I had seen some pictures of the old-time bodybuilders and I thought bodybuilders and weightlifters were one in the same. I had no idea they were that different. I recalled seeing bodybuilding magazines with the type of physique I liked.

After I worked out my first night, everyone hit the showers. I was looking around at these guys and said to myself, "Holy smokes, I don't want to look like that!" They all had big guts and large rear-ends. These guys were big and strong, but they were not impressive at all. They didn't have the look of a bodybuilder. That is when I found out that there was a huge difference, but since I was a kid, I just didn't know. At the YMCA at that time if you were a bodybuilder you were considered a little funny. They would hold a bodybuilding contest, but it would be in the basement. A man posing, shaving his body -- this was unheard of. So, the weightlifters got all the attention.

I used to go to some of the weightlifting meets. When I first walked in, I saw all of these guys with bandaged shoulders, wrist, and knees. I could smell the liniment. It was horrible. I could hear them saying, "I ruined my knee, sprained my ankle, hurt my back, etc." I thought to myself, "This sure as hell isn't something that I want to get into." After observing that, I knew right away that I didn't want to be a weightlifter. As an older guy today, I don't have many injuries except for some scar tissue in my left shoulder and left knee when I tried to prove I could lift a weight that I couldn't. When scar tissue forms, it never goes away. If you try and lift weight that Mother Nature never intended for you to lift in the first place, you are going to injure yourself. Most of my life being a bodybuilder, I never taxed the scar tissue in my shoulder or knee, so I have never had any injuries. I never tore anything. I have never injured ligaments or tendons. Most power lifters, weightlifters and bodybuilders today take steroids. The simple fact is, and most people don't understand, that steroids will certainly make you bigger, absolutely. They will make you tremendously stronger. They will anesthetize you. You will feel great when you take them. One thing that steroids can't do is make your ligaments, tendons, and joints stronger. That's one reason they're so many injuries in sports in general. Some professional athletes are on steroids, either to get bigger and stronger or to recuperate from the strenuous, almost-yearlong endeavour of preparing for their jobs. My teacher, Vince Gironda, hated them, and he accused them of destroying the game that we partake in. When steroids first came into prominence in 1963, all meaningful advancement in natural bodybuilding ceased, which was tragic. Of course, it broke Vince's heart. He hated steroids and he made it known and he stood alone.

At the YMCA, someone had posted a sign down in the dungeon, where the bodybuilders used to train, that the western YMCA was holding a bodybuilding contest. There were going to be ten (10) contestants. So, I got on the bus and went to the contest. The minute I saw those guys I knew it was exactly what I wanted to do. I wanted to look good. I wanted to have shape, definition and aesthetics.

Most power lifters look down on bodybuilders as not strong people. This is simply not true. I try to explain (if people listen) there are two types of strength. There is individual muscle strength and there is group strength. Let's say you lift 200 pounds in a standard bench press. I bet that you couldn't do 200 pounds in a Vince Gironda neck press. What's the difference? A neck press is where you lie on the bench with feet crossed and knees as close to your chest as you can. Your back is flat now. Take the weight off the rack and use a 90-degree grip between your forearm and your bicep. That's your set position. Your back is flat and your chin is up. You start out with the weight elevated as high as you can get it and then slowly bring the bar down to the sternoclavicle, or your Adam's apple, and then draw your elbows back.

In a standard bench press, you bring the bar down to the lower pectoral line, which now becomes an inner-deltoid exercise. When you bring the bar down to the sternoclavicle and pull your elbows back, you are getting a tremendous stretch between the top of the pectorals and the bottom. It is a tremendous exercise, but I bet you will cut your weight almost in half. Now you're lifting 100 pounds with one muscle instead of 200 with six (6) muscles. That's the difference between a weightlifter and a bodybuilder. You have to decide whether you want to impress people with how much weight you can cheat up or how you look.

When Larry Scott entered a bodybuilding contest, do you think the judges cared if he could do a 300-pound bench press? They didn't care how much he could lift. They were concerned about how he looked. Did he have shape, definition, and aesthetics? People who do individual exercises have individual strength. Those who do group exercise have group strength. I cannot workout the way a weightlifter can but in turn he can't workout the way I do.

I had a Canadian weightlifter come into my office (Detroit is just across the border from Canada) and he wanted to get liver and protein. We talked about Vince Gironda's methods and he kind of scoffed at them. I said, "Marcel, what do you do in a curl. Do you ever do dumbbell curls?" He said that he used 60-75 pounds for dumbbell curls. I said, "I have two (2) 25 dumbbells here. Do you think you could do 8 sets of 8 repetitions?" He laughed at me. He thought it was funny. But I told him we were going to do it my way, not his way. "Put your heels together and toes apart. Bend your knees and hunch forward and put your chin to your chest. Grab the dumbbell with a palm grip and straighten your arm out. Start with the dumbbell on your fingertips. As you curl both weights you lock your elbows into your side. Hunch over so the weight at the bottom will have the same resistance when you contract at the top. You're not leaning back and cheating the weight from a half movement to a full movement. Close your eyes and feel the weight. Feel the positives. Touch your deltoids and squeeze them as hard as you can for six (6) seconds, then feel the weight on the way down. Do a full set. Don't drop the weight. Let it go down on your fingertips. Put the weight on the floor and hyperventilate for 15 seconds. Grab the weight again and do another set." It was a joke. On the second set, sixth rep, he couldn't even lift the weight. Then I took the 25-pound dumbbells and I cranked out 6 sets of 8 reps and said, "See, technically I am stronger than you when I do an isolation exercise. But when you do a weightlifting exercise, you're stronger than I am. That's not to say I can't be as strong as you. If I had the capabilities, I could not do as much weight, but I could increase my weight a lot."

The reason that Vince Gironda called the squat a sissy squat is because he would make sissies out of weightlifters when they would come in and do squats. Weightlifting squats are not basically a leg exercise. Certainly, you get big thighs but you ruin the proportion between your thighs, hips, abdomen, and lower back. As Vince had said, weightlifting squats do many things that you don't want your body to be accustomed to like increase the size of your stomach because you push it out, widen your lower back, and get a big rear-end. Vince said he could tell an eastern bodybuilder when he came into his gym by the size of his rear-end. Vince would always warn people, and I have advocated this and told people at the Powerhouse Gym people, when I owned it, once you develop your glutes, you can never reduce them. They are the densest muscles in your body. People used to laugh at me, but many years later they now say they wish they would have listened.

Look at all the modern-day squatters who call themselves bodybuilders. They have rear-ends that proportionately are bigger than their legs. They look horrible. They walk like ducks. That's the first thing I noticed at the YMCA. I want to warn all you bodybuilders. If you start to do squats, you will get a large rear-end that will never, never go away. I'd like a weightlifter to duplicate this. I saw Vince Gironda on a hack-slide/hack-squat machine that he invented. He went up on his toes with heels together, both knees would be pointed towards opposite walls (like a frog). I saw the man crank out 8 sets of 8 reps with 15 seconds of rest in between. I think the bar was around 225 pounds. Now that is strong! Most people do weightlifting squats because it's easy to do. It's much easier to bend over and use a group of muscles. When you isolate the thigh in hack slide versus a squat, you have one muscle lifting 225 pounds versus five (5) muscles lifting 400, which is a cheating exercise to begin with.

Now you ask the question, is it possible to be a bodybuilder and weightlifter? Well, unless you are a genetic superior like Vince Gironda always talked about, the answer is no. I have only seen two people in my life that were capable of doing both. One was an old-time bodybuilder/weightlifter who was on the U.S. Olympic team. His name was Tommy Kono and he represented York Barbell. He had a terrific physique. There are some people who can do squats because they have small hips and small glutes to begin with, but 95% of people can't. He entered weightlifting and physique contests. Sergio Oliva, who defected from Cuba in the late 50s to early 60s, was a member of the Cuban weightlifting team. He didn't look like a weightlifter, he looked like a bodybuilder, but he was blessed. When I watched him work out at the YMCA in Chicago, he had such a small waist and small hips and no rear-end to speak of so weightlifting squats didn't affect him that much, if at all. When he started in bodybuilding, he was very successful, but he didn't pay very much attention to his diet. When I watched him work out, he was eating some kind of pie and drinking a Coke. He didn't look like he knew that much about nutrition, and that's why when he competed against Larry Scott in 1966, Larry just blew him away. Vince once said, "If I ever trained Oliva nobody could touch him." He was such a genetic superior. He rivalled Don Howorth in bodybuilding proportions. I always thought Don had more potential, but Sergio just never practiced good nutrition. I guess he felt that he didn't have to. When Scott beat him in the 1966 Olympia (I was there), Sergio was just dripping with oil. He put so much oil on his body to try to bring his definition out, and it really made him look worse. Because of his genetic superiority and the fact he was blessed, he went on to win many, many titles. One time I was at a seminar in Minneapolis, he was bragging that he beat everybody. I cleared my throat and said, "Sergio you never beat Larry Scott." He was quite embarrassed about that.

So, as I first stated, you will sooner or later have to choose -- good luck!

Thanks,

Ron Kosloff


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## winger

So true mate. I did a cycle of dbol 22 years ago and I worked my way up to 3 and back down to 1. I think I gained about 30 pounds on tricept extentions alone. Freak gains on 15mgs.

Wont even talk about the deca only cycle............lol.


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## Cookie

Man 15mg aday they`d laugh at you nowadays if that was suggested to a new starter

I remember first time I went upto 20mg aday I thought my liver would explode with all the side effects:eek:  what wonderfull innocent days they were:cool:


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