# Rack pulls?



## MrM

Am I right in thinking that a rack pull is basically the last half of a deadlift? Less force on legs and lower back and more on traps and upper back.


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## brandon91

MrM said:


> Am I right in thinking that a rack pull is basically the last half of a deadlift? Less force on legs and lower back and more on traps and upper back.


allows you to strengthen your sticking points and load up more weight aswell  but yeah great for traps


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## arnoldisnumerou

one exercise that if you add to your routine you will not regret in my opinion. started doing them a few months ago and my deads, squats and shoulder presses have all improved


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## MattGriff

Rack pulls are inferior to partial deadlifts - in a rack the bar flexes as the weight hangs off the sides - on a partial the weight sits on the plate as it does on a normla deadlift making them a true dead stop lift that doesn't **** up bars.


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## Deadeight

Coincidentally I read something on this today. If you want a massive answer, then here it is. All credit to Jim Wendler. Note this is aimed at strength training not bodybuilding so may not even be relevant.

*What is your opinion on rack pulls?*

This is a classic case of an idea that works beautifully in theory but, at least in your

case, fails to pay off in the real world.

The theory behind rack pulls is that they allow you to use more weight than you

normally can handle in conventional deadlifts, which helps target certain sticking points,

namely the lockout position????a real sore spot for many lifters. Sounds good, huh? Like I

said, it's a swell theory.

The problem is, I'm not sure how effective this is for most people. I've seen (and

experienced) many extreme rack pulls that rarely carry over to the actual

deadlift. Personally, I've actually pulled over 900lbs from a rack and could barely lock

out 700 in the full range deadlift. Now, perhaps this 900lb rack pull allowed me to lock

out the 700, but I have a hard time believing that.

I think part of the problem is how rack pulls are performed in training. Most of the time

these are done for sets of 1, working up to a 1RM. That's fine and dandy if you want to

test your rack pull and see where you're at. But all that does is test you, not build you: if

training to a 1RM was all you needed to get stronger, then all you'd have to do is enter

a meet each week and max!

Question: How many times have you seen a lifter hit the weight room and work

up to a max single on the bench press? And do this every single workout? And

where is this person a year from now?

Answer: He's the same. Or he's hurt, or overtrained, or worst of all, he's sitting at

home arguing on the Internet about strength training.

The rack pull needs to be treated in the same way as we treat other assistance work,

but with an added caution: there's a difference between rack pulls and back

extensions, and doing multiple sets of 10-20 reps of back extensions isn't nearly as

stressful as doing the same thing with rack pulls.

Having said that, perhaps doing repetitions on some of the popular 1RM exercises like

rack pulls will help develop and strengthen the areas that they're designed to

help. Doing some sets of 5-10 reps certainly won't hurt you, and will probably develop

some much-needed muscle mass.

But these need to be programmed into your training with caution, son. So let's say

you're running my 5/3/1 program and wish to add rack pulls into the training. Because

it's a bigger assistance exercise, we can easily account for it with some minor changes:

Deadlift: 65% x 5, 75% x 5, 85% x 5 (don't go for max reps on the final set)

Rack Deadlifts: 4 x 6-8 reps at 80% of rack dead max

Glute Ham Raises: 3 sets of 10

Ab Wheel: 3 sets of 20

As for setup: where the bar is positioned during the rack pull is largely going to be

determined by your power rack. Racks with large spaces between holes obviously limit

you, although you can put the bar in the rack and adjust the height of your feet with

mats or plates. Truth is though, that's a major pain in the ass, so just pick a setting

below your knees and tug away.

Notice I said BELOW the knees. I'm not a fan of very high rack pulls (above the knees)

namely because, a) it ends up being yet another faggity ego contest, B) the bar bends

and ends up being an even shorter rack pull and, c) the body position during the rack

pull is vastly different than when used during the full range deadlift. In other words, try

to find a position below your knees. The most important thing to remember is this: The

rack pull is not the end itself, but a means to an end. Don't be one of those guys that

plays for Team Rack Pull and ****s the bed when it comes time to pull from the

floor. No one cares what you can tug from pin #9 (with straps); we care what you do

from the floor with just a belt.


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## Home Physique

Rack Pulls help with the lockout of a Standard Deadlift. There's emphasis on the erectors, traps and glutes.


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## MattGriff

Home Physique said:


> Rack Pulls help with the lockout of a Standard Deadlift. There's emphasis on the erectors, traps and glutes.


Rack pulls or indeed partial deadlifts should be performed from below the knee, not level with it - as you can see your legs are pretty much non existant in the lift.


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## a.notherguy

MattGriff said:


> Rack pulls are inferior to partial deadlifts - in a rack the bar flexes as the weight hangs off the sides - on a partial the weight sits on the plate as it does on a normla deadlift making them a true dead stop lift that doesn't **** up bars.


matt,

cos of work commitments, i am rushing through short, intense training sessions first thing on a morning, trying to keep the routine to half hour max.

im getting on a bit so need alot of warming up for doing dead lifts so what do you think of rack pulls from level with the knee as a short term replacement for deads? if i can take my lower back out of the lift i wont have to spend anywhere near as long warming up.


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## Big_Idiot

I find rack pulls amazing. Especially for traps/grip.

I've stopped them for a while now though as i was bruising my knees pretty bad!


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## martin brown

a.notherguy said:


> matt,
> 
> cos of work commitments, i am rushing through short, intense training sessions first thing on a morning, trying to keep the routine to half hour max.
> 
> im getting on a bit so need alot of warming up for doing dead lifts so what do you think of rack pulls from level with the knee as a short term replacement for deads? if i can take my lower back out of the lift i wont have to spend anywhere near as long warming up.


Just how would a rack pull take the lower back out of it?


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## Tinytom

I rate rack pulls and I definately think they helped me get to a PB of deads 1 x 280kg this year.

Im looking at the exercise from a bbing perspective not powerlifting so more concerned with how it helps target my upper back.


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## MattGriff

a.notherguy said:


> matt,
> 
> cos of work commitments, i am rushing through short, intense training sessions first thing on a morning, trying to keep the routine to half hour max.
> 
> im getting on a bit so need alot of warming up for doing dead lifts so what do you think of rack pulls from level with the knee as a short term replacement for deads? if i can take my lower back out of the lift i wont have to spend anywhere near as long warming up.


I would just go in and deadlift, you can easily warm up for 15mins then spend 10-12mins on working sets and get far more stimulation than noncing around.


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## retro-mental

My back is or has been fecked for a while and i avoided deadlifts, I done rack pulls and thought i would get near the same stimulation on the CNS as deadlifts even if i pull twice as much as i deadlift , WRONG !!

I would say that its just an easy way to avoid doing deadlifts and i am getting on better deadlifting a poxy weight than if i rack pull much more. My ego might not think so but to hell with ego. I see it the same as partial squats, Floor presses and stuff like that . It has its uses as an accsessory but not a substitute but then its all goal dependant i suppose


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## a.notherguy

martin brown said:


> Just how would a rack pull take the lower back out of it?


i was thinking the shorter ROM = less TUT = less stress on lower back


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## a.notherguy

MattGriff said:


> I would just go in and deadlift, you can easily warm up for 15mins then spend 10-12mins on working sets and get far more stimulation than noncing around.


wont leave me time to do anything else unfortunately. i may just do as retromental does and deadlift much lighter for a while


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## a.notherguy

retro-mental said:


> My back is or has been fecked for a while and i avoided deadlifts, I done rack pulls and thought i would get near the same stimulation on the CNS as deadlifts even if i pull twice as much as i deadlift , WRONG !!
> 
> I would say that its just an easy way to avoid doing deadlifts and i am getting on better deadlifting a poxy weight than if i rack pull much more. My ego might not think so but to hell with ego. I see it the same as partial squats, Floor presses and stuff like that . It has its uses as an accsessory but not a substitute but then its all goal dependant i suppose


poxy weights here i come! lol


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## MattGriff

a.notherguy said:


> wont leave me time to do anything else unfortunately. i may just do as retromental does and deadlift much lighter for a while


Most lifters would be far better served dedicating a good 90% of thier workout time to 4-5 big compound lifts:

Squat

Deadlift

BOR/Pullups

Overhead Press varient

Chest Press varient

than worrying about not having time to do other stuff.

Last time I checked nobody with a big deadlift ever had a small underdeveloped back and are generally far stronger, more athletic, less injury prone and more able bodied than most gym goers.

Pay your dues to the big lifts > worrying about other stuff


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## Home Physique

MattGriff said:


> Rack pulls or indeed partial deadlifts should be performed from below the knee, not level with it - as you can see your legs are pretty much non existant in the lift.


That's as low as my bars go and I do them purely for lower back and glute. My Hamstrings get enough stimulation from the RDL's I do afterwards. If I didn't do that, I would probably either drill more holes (considering) or make a platform.


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## Tassotti

Deadlift will work your whole back


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## MattGriff

anab0lic said:


> Eh, deadlifting will only really work your spinal erectors.... and trasps....


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## Fatstuff

anab0lic said:


> HEres how you get the most out of rack pulls guys.....don't just drop the fcuking weight down..... pick a weight which allows you to do the negative portion of the lift REALLY slowly.... I'm talking 5-6 whole seconds downwards... come back and tell me how your back feels and looks the next day


Wow - if I follow this advice to the letter my back will instantly improve in 24 hours? This is the big secret I have been looking for - cheers!! :lol:


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## Tassotti

Lat Pull downs will make you massive bro - count of three eac.....pmsl cant carry on the bs


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## RowRow

anab0lic said:


> You clearly dont understand the importance of TUT...


By the looks of things neither did Ronnie or Branch, just saying.


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## RowRow

anab0lic said:


> Nobody here has a) their genetics B) access to the insane amount of drugs they take.
> 
> Dorian Yates understood the importance of TUT and got nearly as big as Ronnie with FAR WORSE gentics... jus sayin


Hehe I like you!

I think Kai is in the same camp as Dorian too.

I know I know, I disproved my own argument, I don't mind  .


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## Tinytom

Oh no it's the 'this exercise is the best exercise lalalala not listening to you anymore' debate

Bodybuilding is about the stress placed on the muscle forcing a reaction that causes increased muscle fibre thickness and volume.

Any exercise can do that. No bodybuilder who was of any note only relied on one exercise to build their physique.

Powerlifting is different from bodybuilding. My friend craig coombs trained at my gym the other day. We were both training back and although we both did deads and rows there was a marked difference in technique and application ie sets and reps. He's an ex bodybuilder turned power lifter.

He pulled 310 from the floor like it was nothing. My best pull is 280.

However my rep range for most exercises runs to 20 reps. He's a big powerful looking (and very strong) guy. I have more muscle separation.

2 very different physiques but both training the 'right way'


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## MattGriff

anab0lic said:


> Deadlifting alone will not build areas most guys need to focus on to build an impressive back, if you truely believe that you have a lot to learn fella.
> 
> Most pro bodybuilders dont even deadlift at all, its right down the botttom of the list in terms of how important it is for building an a wide thick back.


Seems strange the advice though given the total lack of thickness your physique shows in your avatar.

Is it not working or have you miscalculated your TUT requirements?


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## Tinytom

I'd like to see some evidence that 'most pro bbers' don't deadlift.

I'd like some examples.

Dorian deadlifted

Ronnie deadlifted

Flex wheeler deadlifted (smith I think but still)

In fact I think most guys I know do some form of deadlift. Maybe not to 1RM level but in some way.

Comes back to what I said above about using the correct execution of the exercise for your sport. Most of my deadlifting now is more rep based than maximal load.


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## oaklad

anab0lic said:


> Most pro bodybuilders dont even deadlift at all, its right down the botttom of the list in terms of how important it is for building an a wide thick back.


Think you may have this bit wrong most do or have done to build there frame and the mass they now have


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## MRSTRONG

anab0lic said:


> Eh, deadlifting will only really work your spinal erectors.... and trasps.... if you want serious back development its gonna take a whole lot more than that. Same goes for other bodyparts, few people will build a good chest with just benching and great shoulders with just overhead pressing.
> 
> Prettty much bad advice right here if you actually wanna look good.


why dont you post pictures of your superior back development .


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## Tinytom

anab0lic said:


> HEres how you get the most out of rack pulls guys.....don't just drop the fcuking weight down..... pick a weight which allows you to do the negative portion of the lift REALLY slowly.... I'm talking 5-6 whole seconds downwards... come back and tell me how your back feels and looks the next day


That technique sounds like a recipe for a fcuked lumbar in my opinion.

Since the major lever in the partial is the lower back lowering a heavy weight slowly would just put stress onto that lever

And if you lower the weight to be able to do the negative then you negate the whole reason to do a partial.

Just cos your back aches the next day is no indicator of muscle growth. That TUT technique is only really good for strengthening tendons perhaps because of the tension aspect.

The point of negative training in bodybuilding is to resist the weight going throw the lowering or eccentric phase. The muscle is still trying to contract but you are stretching it out at the same time. That's not a good idea for lower back training because of the emphasis on the spine that it would bring.

That's just my bodybuilding take on it. MattG might have a different take as he's in a different camp to me


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## MattGriff

Tinytom said:


> That technique sounds like a recipe for a fcuked lumbar in my opinion.
> 
> Since the major lever in the partial is the lower back lowering a heavy weight slowly would just put stress onto that lever
> 
> *And if you lower the weight to be able to do the negative then you negate the whole reason to do a partial. *
> 
> Just cos your back aches the next day is no indicator of muscle growth. That TUT technique is only really good for strengthening tendons perhaps because of the tension aspect.
> 
> The point of negative training in bodybuilding is to resist the weight going throw the lowering or eccentric phase. The muscle is still trying to contract but you are stretching it out at the same time. That's not a good idea for lower back training because of the emphasis on the spine that it would bring.
> 
> That's just my bodybuilding take on it. MattG might have a different take as he's in a different camp to me


I agree, the part in bold particulalrly applies to my game.


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## jakethasnake

retro-mental said:


> My back is or has been fecked for a while and i avoided deadlifts, I done rack pulls and thought i would get near the same stimulation on the CNS as deadlifts even if i pull twice as much as i deadlift , WRONG !!
> 
> I would say that its just an easy way to avoid doing deadlifts and i am getting on better deadlifting a poxy weight than if i rack pull much more. My ego might not think so but to hell with ego. I see it the same as partial squats, Floor presses and stuff like that . It has its uses as an accsessory but not a substitute but then its all goal dependant i suppose


wot the fek is a partial squat u either squat or you dont


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## retro-mental

jakethasnake said:


> wot the fek is a partial squat u either squat or you dont


Clue is in the name !!


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## MattGriff

anab0lic said:


> LOL ooooh getting personal now.... i wont go there and say what i think about your avi....if that is infact you. I dont have the genetics to be massive and I'm absolutely fine with that I look great right now. I started off with 11 inch arms they now measure just under 17 inches (lean) to give you some idea of how much muscle I've added to my frame. I know guys that are twice the size of me and dont even lift at all would you like their deadlifting routines? - retarded logic - the biggest guy is the most knowledgeable theres a lot of variables to consider. I'm more focused on training others now I cant add any further muscle to my own body... I train people for a living and i have over the years observed exactly what does and doesnt work when it comes to hypertrophy and creating the 'look' most guys desire. I know what I'm talking about fella.. Also dead-lifting in manor some of you suggest aka ego lifting vs causing trauma to the intended muscle is a great way to set yourself up for an injury that could put you out of this game for good.... I learnt the hard way how lifting like how you see some guys lift you are playing with fire if you dont have incredibly robost joints and ligaments to get away with it. Ive been there and done the whole just do compound lifts with every form tweak you can imagine.... been there done it and having tried other things and seeing how Superior the results are with both myself and the guys I train I can see clear as day what works better.


So much facepalm - such a strong lack of reading ability - such a tiny wee mind.


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## Tinytom

anab0lic said:


> The negative portion of any lift is absolutely crucial when it comes to hypertrophy, this is where the most damage occurs and increasing the TUT creates more trauma which results in more growth/adaption.
> 
> I also totally disagree everyone needs different lifts/program to look their best.
> 
> The function of the muscle is he same in everyone. Applied resistance through the full ROM of a muscles 'job' with the correct intensity,frequency.volume is all thats needed. In an ideal world you'd isolate everything you want to grow at high intensity... too bad the equipment you need to do that you wont find in most gyms.


TUT is not the optimum way to grow. Anecdotal evidence from pretty much every single bodybuilder I know emphasises the contractile portion.

It has a place in an exercise system but not for every exercise. Some exercises are suited better than others.

I'm more interested in the statement I've underlined. So you're saying everyone should follow the same routine?


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## MattGriff

anab0lic said:


> Great well thought out logical response.....


I don't try to match wits with the witless, it seemed fitting given the obtuse retort from yourself - after all you train a few manlets so must know it all.


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## Smitch

So how do partial deads differ from say partial bench press using blocks etc?

Don't powerlifters use these to help with sticking points too?


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## mikemull

anab0lic said:


> You really expect people to take anything you say seriously around here? You just throw around lame little insults, make baseless assumptions +provide zero reasoning to back up anything you say... anyone with half a brain can see your posts are a joke.


Not sure if you've read griffs profile and journal but I think your barking up the wrong tree here fella!


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## MattGriff

anab0lic said:


> You really expect people to take anything you say seriously around here? You just throw around lame little insults, make baseless assumptions +provide zero reasoning to back up anything you say... anyone with half a brain can see your posts are a joke.


Ahh irony strikes again. Somehow I don't think you are sharp enough to pick up on it.


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## Tinytom

Guys

Discussion. Not silly insult throwing please


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## Tinytom

anab0lic said:


> @ Tiny tom are you familiar with Dante Trudel aka 'doggcrapp' very well known respected American trainer....has worked with many pro bodybuilders. This is exactly how he performs them. If you keep your back rounded you will have zero lower back problems.... people actually get injured during the concentric portion of the phase where your muscles are weaker and ligaments/tendons do more of the work....this is why large framed guys tend to be able to shift alot of weight without always being that impressive muscle wise, strong tendons/bones etc that allow them to lift more on the positive phase of the lift. They actually perform negative only work when rehabbing some people from injurys in some rehab centres, because there is virtually no tendon involvement when you do so....dunno where you are getting the idea that it strengthens the tendons.... your way off the mark with that.


I know of him, dont know how many champions he has trained though, do you know?

Interms of rehab, thats with light weight intended to help someone recover from an injury, totally different to a healthy person training for muscle growth which is a completely different environment to recovery, I know this because I have done rehab for 2 shoulder injury, one of these involved a tendon tear which was fixed and actually my recovery programme was positive not negative training because of my muscle size. The negative training would have put too much onto the torn/repaired tendon.

You havent answered my question about 'everyone should do the same type of training'

Also just a question about that Doggcrapp training cos Im not totally up on it, is the partials the only exercise he does for back and what kind of weights does he use?

I can understand a lighter weight used to stimulate more muscle involvement as part of the workout as I do Smith Deads under constant tension while dieting to bring out a bit more separation, but thats with much lighter weight and in no way do I think thats building my back more in terms of density and thickness, just adding to the overload principle


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## martin brown

Tinytom said:


> I'd like to see some evidence that 'most pro bbers' don't deadlift.
> 
> I'd like some examples.
> 
> Dorian deadlifted
> 
> Ronnie deadlifted
> 
> Flex wheeler deadlifted (smith I think but still)
> 
> In fact I think most guys I know do some form of deadlift. Maybe not to 1RM level but in some way.
> 
> Comes back to what I said above about using the correct execution of the exercise for your sport. Most of my deadlifting now is more rep based than maximal load.


Alot of the better BB'ers also started out as powerlifters 

We had Branch over a couple of years back and we had dinner. He was big on eating big and training properly and heavy. Everyone who trains at metroflex deadlifts alot - and coincidentally they've produced some of the best bodybuilders, powerlifters and strongmen.


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## Tinytom

Lol quite ironic then that craig Coombs started out as a bodybuilder and now one of the best power lifters.

I love the heavy lifts. Just can't do them continuously. Joints won't take it


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## martin brown

Tinytom said:


> Lol quite ironic then that craig Coombs started out as a bodybuilder and now one of the best power lifters.
> 
> I love the heavy lifts. Just can't do them continuously. Joints won't take it


Yeah Craig has alot of muscle. This is where people are often ignorant to strength sports compared to bodybuilding - there are no big lifters without alot of muscle, some just carry a bit of fat too...

Alot of good strength athletes also started out in bodybuilding - Andy Bolton and Glenn Ross spring to mind.


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## Tassotti

It's difficult to imagine Glenn as a bodubuilder.

He has such a beautiful physique now


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## MRSTRONG

anab0lic said:


> You really expect people to take anything you say seriously around here? You just throw around lame little insults, make baseless assumptions +provide zero reasoning to back up anything you say... anyone with half a brain can see your posts are a joke.


in all fairness i would listen to matt over you given that matt has a deadlift record or 2 and you dont even look like you train ...


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## MRSTRONG

Tassotti said:


> It's difficult to imagine Glenn as a bodubuilder.
> 
> He has such a beautiful physique now


imagine no more ...

View attachment 88114


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## Tassotti

muscle turns to fat ?


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## MRSTRONG

who`s the daddy :thumb:


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## MRSTRONG

anab0lic said:


> LOL! This isnt a powelifting meet fella... I couldn't give a damn what he deadlifts, you deadlift or what anyone else around here
> 
> deadlifts....doesnt impress me in the slightest and is completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand.
> 
> My points are as follows:
> 
> 1) If your a bodybuilder you are better off doing doing rack deadlifts than full deadlifts as it will alow more weight to be used in the portion of the lift where the spinal erectors are doing the work, which will obviously lead to greater growth in that area . The lower portion of the lift where quads hams etc are doing more of the work you are better of working them directly through other lifts.
> 
> 2) Deadlifts/RDL's dont contribute much at all in terms of overall back development, you wont get any significant hypertrophy in the areas that make or break an impressive back - lats, terres, rhomboids etc etc. Same goes for other compound lifts (another stupid post by 'mattgriff') very few poeple will build impressive shoulders with just pressing alone and those guys that do would have even better shoulders if they did more direct work.... its a better tricep builder than it is shoulder builder.... most guys need to focus on the side delt giving them more width there's barely any work being done by the side delts at all in an OHP....its akin to squatting to build big calves.
> 
> 3) Slowing down the negative is absolutely essential for hypertrophy. It's one of the key elements that made Dorians training so effective, watch any one of his seminars where he teaches guys how to train he will constantly bring up how important it is and hes absolutely right all the science is there to support it.... although you shouldn't even need to look at that, he has worse genetics than Ronnie....and got just as big....i also believe he took less steroids than many of the other pros are taking which compensates somewhat for their not so effective training.
> 
> The difference between me and you... Ive done it both ways and have seen first hand what works better.


actually i think you will find it does matter as the thread title is rack pulls which fall under deadlifts .

post pictures of your back built with rack/partial deadlifts i really am interested to see what these have done for you .

as for deadlifts not doing much for overall back development why did yates coleman and countless strength guys have an awesome back .

point number 3 big man have a watch






arnie and lou did not use TUT principle did they and they somehow managed hypertrophy .

btw all i do is push press and ill put money on my shoulders being far bigger than yours .


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## Fatstuff




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## Weedon

Dorian has just Tweeted saying @Bodycoaches are having a Q&A from 8pm onwards, Think its Dorian answering the Questions.

Could stick them a question about rack pulls anyone that has twitter? https://twitter.com/TeamBodycoaches

Just a thought!


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## MRSTRONG

anab0lic said:


> Why do you have such a difficult time understanding how big a role genetics play in bodybuilding and strength training?
> 
> Just because guy A is bigger/stronger than guy B it doesnt mean guy A has more knowledge or is training in a superior way.


i find it so hard to understand that these genetic supermen can just pop into a gym and be the next mr O , it takes years of training and not just superior genes .

take zyrundas savicas he was not born worlds strongest man but the fact that every door opened at the right time made him the wsm all he had to do was follow the guidelines of his coach and put the effort in .

mariuz was taken to the top because of his mafia ties because his genes were not that superior yes he was strong but he certainly was not the strongest .

arnie trained from young teens and every door opened correctly for him , big lou was bigger and better yet failed to do what arnie did .

go on post pictures of your back .


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## Fatstuff

Weedon said:


> Dorian has just Tweeted saying @Bodycoaches are having a Q&A from 8pm onwards, Think its Dorian answering the Questions.
> 
> Could stick them a question about rack pulls anyone that has twitter? https://twitter.com/TeamBodycoaches
> 
> Just a thought!


Anabolic should go on it and tell Dorian where he's going wrong!


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## hackskii

Interestingly enough, I see all points here and understand where everyone is coming from.

I do think there are many ways of skinning a cat.


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## MRSTRONG

hackskii said:


> Interestingly enough, I see all points here and understand where everyone is coming from.
> 
> I do think there are many ways of skinning a cat.


still need a sharp blade to do the job hacks 

that sharp blade in this instance is deadlifting full ROM :lol:


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## Fatstuff

hackskii said:


> Interestingly enough, I see all points here and understand where everyone is coming from.
> 
> I do think there are many ways of skinning a cat.


100% agree, it's just some people aren't willing to believe that and their way is greatest, hence the arrogant wink  and the trust me spiel after giving advice to someone!


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## Tinytom

You haven't answered 2 of my questions now anabolic.

Why do you say that you disagree that different people require different training program's.

Also which pro bber athletes are coached by Dante

I have a third now.

If emphasising the negative is essential for hypertrophy ( which implies that if you don't do it you don't grow) how do you explain the many millions of people who dont do this type of training and still grow.


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## MRSTRONG

Tinytom said:


> You haven't answered 2 of my questions now anabolic.
> 
> Why do you say that you disagree that different people require different training program's.
> 
> Also which pro bber athletes are coached by Dante
> 
> I have a third now.
> 
> If emphasising the negative is essential for hypertrophy ( which implies that if you don't do it you don't grow) how do you explain the many millions of people who dont do this type of training and still grow.


genetics tom  i bet he drops that in .


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## hackskii

ewen said:


> still need a sharp blade to do the job hacks
> 
> that sharp blade in this instance is deadlifting full ROM :lol:


Bent over cable rows hit lower back, stiff leg dead lifts hit lower back, hyper-extensions hit lower back, clean and jerk hits lower back.

What I am suggesting is that bodybuilding can have many different ways to either target a muscle directly, or indirectly.

I think that if one had a lagging muscle group they could focus on that to stimulate.

My calves have always been huge, I dont think I would consider directly hitting them as they already are bigger than my arms.

In bodybuilding it is aesthetics, chest should be 10 inches bigger than waist, arms, calves, neck should all be roughly the same size.

It depends on your goals, power lifting has different goals than bodybuilding.

I agree that basic compound lifts all should be priority but once the mass is there then variations of isolation movements can cause a change in shape and separation.

I have seen guys get big with light weight and many reps, seen guys get big with big weights.

I do feel that for bodybuilding that concentric and eccentric movements both need to be done, with equal importance.


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## RowRow

Now I am just a lowly mortal who can only speak for himself.

When I trained hard, heavy and ballistically,with little focus on negatives or tut. I never went above 8 reps pretty much. I got to my strongest and my biggest albeit not that lean.

When I switched to a real hard contraction and slower negatives I was no where near as strong nor was I as big but I did develop a better muscle and overall body shape. Aswell as strengthening mind muscle connections with bodyparts.

So I lately am trying to incorporate both into my training as one invariably helps the other, from my experience though neither one is better.


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## Tinytom

RowRow said:


> Now I am just a lowly mortal who can only speak for himself.
> 
> When I trained hard, heavy and ballistically,with little focus on negatives or tut. I never went above 8 reps pretty much. I got to my strongest and my biggest albeit not that lean.
> 
> When I switched to a real hard contraction and slower negatives I was no where near as strong nor was I as big but I did develop a better muscle and overall body shape. Aswell as strengthening mind muscle connections with bodyparts.
> 
> So I lately am trying to incorporate both into my training as one invariably helps the other, from my experience though neither one is better.


This is good.

And entirely what bodybuilding should bd about. Finding what combination of techniques works best and incorporating a mix of techniques for optimal growth.

To say that only one method is the best and that should be used entirely is limiting progress.


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