# Seeing submissions



## Mightymark (May 12, 2008)

Can any of you do this, as in see possible submissions in all situations when rolling? I personally cant and have to really work for every sub so Im wondering is this something that comes with time and experience or is just the ability of the elite ??


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## ryanjvt (May 2, 2010)

Mightymark said:


> Can any of you do this, as in see possible submissions in all situations when rolling? I personally cant and have to really work for every sub so Im wondering is this something that comes with time and experience or is just the ability of the elite ??


mate i cant see submissins if someone told me abut it.... i have to really think and try my hardest to pull off one... but i got people in my group who pull em off left right and centre.... i think its something that natrualy comes to em.. but for the rest of us we have to work our ars off for em....


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## ROTWELLIER (Apr 17, 2010)

i usually find that i can see erm better when i relax and really think bout my position  thats my 2 cents anyway


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## PrideNeverDies (Sep 28, 2008)

I guess if your a real natural you will see them

Or if you're really into your BJJ and work hard at it then you will see it , In personal experience, you'll only see them with the more training you do , because you'll get put into positions , you'll need the submission, and then that will usually stay in your head

Just keep practicing

POSITIONING , POSITIONING , POSITIONING .. When grappling with someone and transitioning , the more you do it , the easier it will stick with you


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## Agentman (Jul 1, 2010)

Experience.

'Seeing' submissions is all down to years of practice and realising which bad habits will get you tapped out. Then you look for those same bad habits in your opponant and try to exploit them - stuff like keeping their chin up when going for the takedown, giving you a straight arm when theyre in your guard, turning their back to you when youve got full mount and so on.


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## PrideNeverDies (Sep 28, 2008)

true dat, its like when gettting caught in submissions

How many of us have left our arm unprotected and get caught out to an arm bar ?

you learn to cut that out !


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## Si-K (Jul 23, 2007)

bit of everything i'd say ...if not a natural thing you will learn from your mistakes (experience and practise) and personally I have learned loads just watching fights and rolling sessions, the more you surround yourself in it the more you will see and learn...practice, watch, practice, watch, and ask questions...you tube/DVD/watch in the gym/dojo etc you get the point...also ask someone who's game you respect (rolling wise) if they are standing about to roll with you and point out any mistakes or to watch you roll with someone and then ask them to be brutal with you (just do not get offended and prepare yourself for the worst) most guys will be gentle!!!.


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## Luke-S (Aug 10, 2010)

I find that anytime I transition to a new position I assess as quickly as possible all basic submissions available from my current position. Then just start working for them. I don't think i've been doing it long enough to "see" them so much. I just make them happen I think.


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## ewrayzor (Jun 19, 2010)

I've gone through a stage with Luta where when I started I would roll and try subs that weren't there at all just because I'd learnt them. After a while though I got to a point where I would be in a position and then think 'I could of done that there' and then have to try something else and now I'm at the point where I can 'see' certain submissions and put them on but this has taken a year of just luta twice/three times per week.

And, I still get caught with the Guillotine too much!


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## Agentman (Jul 1, 2010)

See I find defending the Guillotine and other chokes the easiest - bury your chin into your chest, hunch your shoulders and always get both hands on the arm trying to choke you and your opponant will struggle to get anywhere. Learn to retract your head into your body almost like a turtle and you could probably defend most choke attempts with no hands - it can be that tough to break.

The most common mistake I see in the people I spar with is people going for the single or double leg takedowns and leaving their heads on my hip with their chin up - I tend to either take the Guillotine as they drive through or face bar them off my hip to take their back.

Defending the arms is a similar principle, just keep them tucked in nice and tight - dont go flailing them around or anything.

As a rule when rolling with less experienced people I always try to talk them through their mistakes and highlight the possible defences.


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## ewrayzor (Jun 19, 2010)

Agentman said:


> As a rule when rolling with less experienced people I always try to talk them through their mistakes and highlight the possible defences.


:good

I find that the most rewarding element of rolling is exactly what you've just said. I think it un-nerves newcomers too, which is a big part of getting a solid team together.

I am getting better at the guillotine escapes but I think my background in judo leaves that particular sub - along with leg locks open because I've never had to defend it before as they are not allowed.


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## Si-K (Jul 23, 2007)

I think the fact you do luta rather than BJJ is gonna leave you open to more as well...when I switched I did not realise all the neck cranks and extra leg locks you can do in luta...which bjj left me open too - as they where not allowed so we did not need to worry about certain positions then bam first roll in luta I spent the next 3 weeks limping as i refused to tap to a leg lock, I reversed it but both of us suffered :laugh:


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## ewrayzor (Jun 19, 2010)

:laugh: been there


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## ryanjvt (May 2, 2010)

Si-K said:



> I think the fact you do luta rather than BJJ is gonna leave you open to more as well...when I switched I did not realise all the neck cranks and extra leg locks you can do in luta...which bjj left me open too - as they where not allowed so we did not need to worry about certain positions then bam first roll in luta I spent the next 3 weeks limping as i refused to tap to a leg lock, I reversed it but both of us suffered :laugh:


lol im like that when i get put in to leg locks... im too stubern to tapout... but i have learnt after loads of ankle lock injuries to tap out... cas my feet are now ****ed.... i sprained it in sparring then two days later i fravtured it in 6 places and was out for 5months, now if anyone tries to put a lock on my ankle i tapout like a bitch even before the pressure has been put on lol...


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## ROTWELLIER (Apr 17, 2010)

just looked at this again and tried to remember the 1st time i submitted someone in sparring it was like 2 months into my training. a new guy came into the gym like half my weight half my size and no ezperience lol i quickly took him down and barely managed a rear naked choke

SWHO ELSE REMEMBERS THERE 1ST SUCCESFUL SUBMISSION?


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## Agentman (Jul 1, 2010)

Cant remember mine. It was ten years ago and Ive taken far too many blows to the head since then - I'm lucky if I can remember my last successful submission!

As for Judoka not being familiar with dealing with chokes - there are loads of chokes in Judo are there not? Shimewaza, hadaka Jime, Kataha Jime, Kata Juji Jime, Sankaku Jime, Omote Sankaku Jime and so on - many very similar in style to the chokes most commonly used in MMA.


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## ewrayzor (Jun 19, 2010)

Agentman said:


> Cant remember mine. It was ten years ago and Ive taken far too many blows to the head since then - I'm lucky if I can remember my last successful submission!
> 
> As for Judoka not being familiar with dealing with chokes - there are loads of chokes in Judo are there not? Shimewaza, hadaka Jime, Kataha Jime, Kata Juji Jime, Sankaku Jime, Omote Sankaku Jime and so on - many very similar in style to the chokes most commonly used in MMA.


There are lots of chokes in judo you are right however chokes that involve a headlock style hold over the head like the guillotine are not allowed.


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## Agentman (Jul 1, 2010)

Got you - didnt know that.

I'm aware that people who do Judo struggle to defend leg locks. We had a guy used to train at our place who tapped like a bitch anytime you went anywhere near his legs - you wouldnt even have to fully apply the lock.


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## Si-K (Jul 23, 2007)

ryanjvt said:


> lol im like that when i get put in to leg locks... im too stubern to tapout... but i have learnt after loads of ankle lock injuries to tap out... cas my feet are now ****ed.... i sprained it in sparring then two days later i fravtured it in 6 places and was out for 5months, now if anyone tries to put a lock on my ankle i tapout like a bitch even before the pressure has been put on lol...


Damn that is stubborn...

To be honest I never refuse to tap - this was the 1st time as I was new to the club and my mate was teaching and it was a new friend who tried to tap me - straight into the leg lock...any other time I would have tapped my little heart away...we had a laugh tho and he still mentions the fact I reversed it on him...I think he is planning sweet revenge but I'm outta the game at the moment with a torn quad? (or something of the like).


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## A1Warwick (Nov 30, 2010)

Agentman said:


> See I find defending the Guillotine and other chokes the easiest - bury your chin into your chest, hunch your shoulders and always get both hands on the arm trying to choke you and your opponant will struggle to get anywhere. Learn to retract your head into your body almost like a turtle and you could probably defend most choke attempts with no hands - it can be that tough to break.
> 
> The most common mistake I see in the people I spar with is people going for the single or double leg takedowns and leaving their heads on my hip with their chin up - I tend to either take the Guillotine as they drive through or face bar them off my hip to take their back.
> 
> ...


agent man -

Im new to the sport and being a rugby player, my instinct is to go for single and double leg takedowns in particular... Therefore, i do get caught in the guillotine quite regularly - our coach ran us through how to defend against the guillotine once the opponent has it in though.

My question to you is:

When performing a takedown as mentioned - where should I position my head/chin to best avoid the guillotine?

Cheers

Warwick


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## Agentman (Jul 1, 2010)

The head is still placed in the hip/thigh area when conducting a successful single or double leg but the key to avoiding the choke or the facebar is to keep the head tight against your opponants body and the chin down. Dont give him a space between your head and his body and dont lift your chin (the hardest part to drill out because it is a natural motion to make when making the takedown).

Failing all of this then try to broaden your array of takedowns or your set ups for the takedown. Low single leg takedowns, 'running the pipe' to a double leg and footsweeps all avoid the risk of a choke as do different set up techniques such as biceps tie-up, head and arm control, two-on-one positioning, collar ties and underhooks.

Those are all very specific wrestling techniques and you may need to look them up if youre not familiar but I'd highly recommend a specialist wrestling coach as the best bet to improve the variety and effectiveness of your takedowns if thats an area you want to work on.


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## A1Warwick (Nov 30, 2010)

Thanks a lot mate

My coach has mentioned some of those terms once or twice so i'll definately look into them.

Thanks again

W


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## Superman (Dec 6, 2010)

A1Warwick said:


> agent man -
> 
> Im new to the sport and being a rugby player, my instinct is to go for single and double leg takedowns in particular... Therefore, i do get caught in the guillotine quite regularly - our coach ran us through how to defend against the guillotine once the opponent has it in though.
> 
> ...


I used to have the exact same problem as i also came from a rugby background i found the best way to defend is just to your shoulders hunched like when you have your hands up in boxing and then just keep your chin tight and your head tight to the outside of your opponents legs.

Hope this helps you it take's practice but now it just comes naturally to me now :thumb


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## joeedoom (Jul 31, 2009)

Personally, submissions are felt as much as they are seen, if not more so. Getting into position is primary, then feeling for exsessive or insufficiant movement or tension, watching the opponents comfort level is also a big give away. If your making him uncomfortable, you can make a guess on what he might give away, thats something I think you can feel before you can see it.

Defending a take-down with a choke is a newby move, just ensure you dont land in guard and there are all sorts of ways out. Its very hard to get a sub from a gilly if your opponent isnt snug in your guard.


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## joeedoom (Jul 31, 2009)

Superman said:


> I used to have the exact same problem as i also came from a rugby background i found the best way to defend is just to your shoulders hunched like when you have your hands up in boxing and then just keep your chin tight and your head tight to the outside of your opponents legs.
> 
> Hope this helps you it take's practice but now it just comes naturally to me now :thumb


Typical of the rugby players that we have had down, they tackle too close to the waist. Sweet spot is just above the knee, nobody is gonna reach a gilly around your neck from there.


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## Agentman (Jul 1, 2010)

joeedoom said:


> Personally, submissions are felt as much as they are seen, if not more so. Getting into position is primary, then feeling for exsessive or insufficiant movement or tension, watching the opponents comfort level is also a big give away. If your making him uncomfortable, you can make a guess on what he might give away, thats something I think you can feel before you can see it.
> 
> Defending a take-down with a choke is a newby move, just ensure you dont land in guard and there are all sorts of ways out. Its very hard to get a sub from a gilly if your opponent isnt snug in your guard.


I would dispute that defending a takedown with a choke is a 'newby' move. How is that any more 'newby' than using the standard defence to a takedown which is a sprawl?

Getting CAUGHT in a choke when attempting a takedown IS a 'newby' mistake - which is exactly the point of this thread.


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## joeedoom (Jul 31, 2009)

Agentman said:


> I would dispute that defending a takedown with a choke is a 'newby' move. How is that any more 'newby' than using the standard defence to a takedown which is a sprawl?
> 
> Getting CAUGHT in a choke when attempting a takedown IS a 'newby' mistake - which is exactly the point of this thread.


You get points for stuffing a takedown, and yes you get points for an attempted sub, but you would also lose them for getting taken down.

I suppose you could say that advanced fighters take the hold in order to gain some control, but keeping it when you dont have the correct position, thats newbie.

Im not sure that getting caught in a gilly when attempting a double is such a newb mistake, sure landing in guard with your neck stuck out/down is but if you land in half guard or better, I would call that acceptable risk.


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## Agentman (Jul 1, 2010)

joeedoom said:


> You get points for stuffing a takedown, and yes you get points for an attempted sub, but you would also lose them for getting taken down.
> 
> I suppose you could say that advanced fighters take the hold in order to gain some control, but keeping it when you dont have the correct position, thats newbie.
> 
> Im not sure that getting caught in a gilly when attempting a double is such a newb mistake, sure landing in guard with your neck stuck out/down is but if you land in half guard or better, I would call that acceptable risk.


You said that defending the takedown with a choke is a newby move - you said nothing about people taking the choke when they dont have the correct position and have no hope of sinking it in like you are now.

Any fighter defending the takedown has to make a decision about the best way to do that and yes, trying a submission when you havent got a hope of getting it is pointless and may be 'newby' - new guys do often fight losing battles rather than trying new things when grappling - but if the submission IS the best option then youre likely going to take it and doing so isnt a sign of a lack of experience.

As for whether people offering their necks up on a silver platter when going for the takedown is a 'newby' mistake, this thread is about exactly that - a new guy suffering this problem - and Its certainly a common mistake Ive seen many people make in my ten years or so of submission grappling and MMA si again I would beg to differ with you on that.


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## christomo (Nov 20, 2007)

i usual see submissions pretty easy when watching other people roll, but its a different story when its myself haha


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## Hocken (May 17, 2011)

For me it works great when I'm able to stay calm and just try to access the situation during the whole time I'm rolling. Also, it helps not roll at 100% all the time, specially in the beginning.


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## zoolander81 (Jul 31, 2011)

drill drill drill,


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