# Are we all taking in more protein than needed?



## Heath (Mar 3, 2011)

Just watched this by @JasonDB and he makes some interesting points.






Thoughts?

I know being on a tight budget myself that a diet lower in protein would certainly be cheaper and wondering if we are all just slaves to info fed to us by the supp companies selling their protein..

Link to the study he's citing -

http://ajpendo.physiology.org/content/281/6/E1172


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## BigTrev (Mar 16, 2008)

I use to be all crazy on getting up to 500grams a day of protein and decided to quit and just eat better with one shake daily.

I have put on much better muscle this last 8 months or so and wont be forking out for protein like I did before that's for sure


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## SkinnyJ (Apr 21, 2012)

They gained 18lbs of muscle without even lifting weights??

I do think people have more protein than needed, I've seen guys on here saying they eat 400g a day! That's a stupid amount but who knows. Whatever's working keep at it lol.


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## Leeds89 (Feb 13, 2012)

I always go for a minimum of 200g but the carbs and fats are vastly more important imo. I could grow well off 100g protein a day tbh as long as my body had the carbs and fats it needed.


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## massmuscle (May 29, 2013)

Id rather over do it than under do it, I'd hate to think I wasn't getting the most out of my workouts!


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## L11 (Jan 21, 2011)

I'll watch later as it's something I'm very interested in. But in my experience on a cut, I performed far better (in terms of strength) with a higher percentage of protein (with calories equal). I expect its vastly different when maintaining and bulking though as carbs will spare protein


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## mattc1991 (Jan 2, 2012)

The body can only utilise so much. SCIENTIFIC FACT. Can't argue with that bro


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## Leeds89 (Feb 13, 2012)

mattc1991 said:


> The body can only utilise so much. SCIENTIFIC FACT. Can't argue with that bro


If you're gonna write SCIENTIFIC FACT like that at least post a link to or an extract from a study.


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## bigtommay (Jun 26, 2012)

I think we are yeah. I cut protein quite significantly with an increase in carb and fat and noticed no difference. My bank balance improved also.


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## kingdale (Nov 2, 2010)

mattc1991 said:


> The body can only utilise so much. SCIENTIFIC FACT. Can't argue with that bro


Yes but how much can it utilise is the question you didn't actually answer it


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## Heath (Mar 3, 2011)

L11 said:


> I'll watch later as it's something I'm very interested in. But in my experience on a cut, I performed far better (in terms of strength) with a higher percentage of protein (with calories equal). I expect its vastly different when maintaining and bulking though as carbs will spare protein


But wouldn't carbs spare muscle the same when cutting?

They should also give better performance for most people.

According to the video Dorian Yates never went over 200g protein whilst winning the Olympia.


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## Mingster (Mar 25, 2011)

I'm a fan of protein. I'm always much stronger when I'm taking in a lot, and I like the taste of high protein foods.


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## mattc1991 (Jan 2, 2012)

kingdale said:


> Yes but how much can it utilise is the question you didn't actually answer it


Isn't it like 2-3grams an hour?

Aslong as you have constant supply your fine with at least 4 meals a day.

Obviously protein is a macro you can't abuse like you can fats & carbs so there's no harm in more, but when guys think they need over 250grams it's obserd and a waste of cash


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## SkinnyJ (Apr 21, 2012)

BigTrev said:


> I use to be all crazy on getting up to 500grams a day of protein and decided to quit and just eat better with one shake daily.
> 
> I have put on much better muscle this last 8 months or so and wont be forking out for protein like I did before that's for sure


500g a day!? Why mate! Must have cost you a fortune to go through that much. Dread to think how your ****s were :blink:


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## L11 (Jan 21, 2011)

Heath said:


> But wouldn't carbs spare muscle the same when cutting?
> 
> They should also give better performance for most people.


You'd think so, but my experience has proved differently. And that's all that matters for me, how my body reacts.. Trust me I was all over the "natty's dont need that much protein bandwagon" at one point


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## ah24 (Jun 25, 2006)

There's some new research due to be published by Eric Helms et al, that was done this year on protein requirements.

The study was done on 'lean, well trained athletes' and done in hypo caloric conditions. So, fairly applicable to us when dieting (obv done on nattys so need to take that into account).

Anyway, the conclusion was;

2.3g-3.1g / KG of FFM

This is higher than typical protein requirement studies, but still a fair amount less than what most on here recommend!


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## Dark sim (May 18, 2013)

SkinnyJ said:


> 500g a day!? Why mate! Must have cost you a fortune to go through that much. Dread to think how your ****s were :blink:


My proteinis over 500g, carbs 600g, fats over 200g.

Gotta eat big to get big, it really is that simple.


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## Mingster (Mar 25, 2011)

SkinnyJ said:


> 500g a day!? Why mate! Must have cost you a fortune to go through that much. Dread to think how your ****s were :blink:


But what if you need 5000 cals simply to maintain? A typical 40/40/20 macro split would require 500g of protein and carbs with the remainder from fats...


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## ah24 (Jun 25, 2006)

Mingster said:


> But what if you need 5000 cals simply to maintain? A typical 40/40/20 macro split would require 500g of protein and carbs with the remainder from fats...


I don't think too many guys on here require 5000 to maintain..


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## SkinnyJ (Apr 21, 2012)

Mingster said:


> But what if you need 5000 cals simply to maintain? A typical 40/40/20 macro split would require 500g of protein and carbs with the remainder from fats...


5000 to maintain? Watching other Jason videos he also says the 40/40/20 macros split is ancient and there are better ways to calculate things.


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## SkinnyJ (Apr 21, 2012)

Dark sim said:


> My proteinis over 500g, carbs 600g, fats over 200g.
> 
> Gotta eat big to get big, it really is that simple.


Over 500g lol. So mr Olympia at the time didn't need anywhere near that much, yet you think you need that much to grow? You need calories to grow, not necessarily protein.

anyway like I said before if its working for you then great. If you don't like eating that much though and aren't happy with it then maybe you could change it and still gain the same.


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## Mingster (Mar 25, 2011)

ah24 said:


> I don't think too many guys on here require 5000 to maintain..





SkinnyJ said:


> 5000 to maintain? Watching other Jason videos he also says the 40/40/20 macros split is ancient and there are better ways to calculate things.


I can cut on 4500. So are you suggesting 800 cals from carbs on a cut?


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## Heath (Mar 3, 2011)

DY recommended more than double carbs to protein.

Didn't think people still did macros in percentages anyway?

5000 cals means nothing really with regards to actual protein requirements.


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## biglbs (Jan 26, 2012)

I think higher protein is good when cutting ,but I have recently found I need far less when maintaining or slowly bulking,interesting to say the least. 500g cutting and 200-300 lean bulking or maintaining,subject to intensity and volume seems ok,i am old school too ,so it kind of goes against my grain tbh


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## BigTrev (Mar 16, 2008)

SkinnyJ said:


> 500g a day!? Why mate! Must have cost you a fortune to go through that much. Dread to think how your ****s were :blink:


Mate I meant 400g daily tho couldn't be fuked using edit lol

Still a lot of protein and a waste of cash in truth.

I don't follow a diet as such I try to eat cleanish just and get my proteins from fish,,meats,,eggs etc but don't count how much nowadays and I have built much better and quicker but do need to loss some body fat


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## Dark sim (May 18, 2013)

SkinnyJ said:


> Over 500g lol. So mr Olympia at the time didn't need anywhere near that much, yet you think you need that much to grow? You need calories to grow, not necessarily protein.
> 
> anyway like I said before if its working for you then great. If you don't like eating that much though and aren't happy with it then maybe you could change it and still gain the same.


I call bigtime BS on any mr O needing only 200g protein.

Think you have a lot to learn about BB.

I'm experienced enough to know I cannot get away with less, the body will plateau, and it did. As weight increases so do calories, not necessarily protein, as that is high enough.

I'm 295lbs @15-16%bf. So maintenance is over 5000 calories.


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## SkinnyJ (Apr 21, 2012)

Dark sim said:


> As weight increases so do calories, not necessarily protein, as that is high enough.





SkinnyJ said:


> You need calories to grow, not necessarily protein


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## Dark sim (May 18, 2013)

Your point?

My carbs are 600g, fats 200g. So you telling me to decrease my 500g protein and increase carbs or fats, i'm interested to know?

Pass on your wisdom kind sir...........


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## Heath (Mar 3, 2011)

Dark sim said:


> Your point?
> 
> My carbs are 600g, fats 200g. So you telling me to decrease my 500g protein and increase carbs or fats, i'm interested to know?
> 
> Pass on your wisdom kind sir...........


According to this interview with the Mr O

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/dorian_yates_nutrition_interview.htm

He suggests double carbs to protein


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## SkinnyJ (Apr 21, 2012)

Dark sim said:


> Your point?
> 
> My carbs are 600g, fats 200g. So you telling me to decrease my 500g protein and increase carbs or fats, i'm interested to know?
> 
> Pass on your wisdom kind sir...........


Like I said do whatever you like. I don't care. The discussion was that you might not actually need that much protein in order to grow.

Try decreasing it and see what happens. No need to get so defensive because youre cramming in 500g a day, I'm not sure why you have taken it so personally lol.

Either way, enjoy :001_tt2:


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## Heath (Mar 3, 2011)

SkinnyJ said:


> Like I said do whatever you like. I don't care. The discussion was that you might not actually need that much protein in order to grow.
> 
> Try decreasing it and see what happens. No need to get so defensive because youre cramming in 500g a day, I'm not sure why you have taken it so personally lol.
> 
> Either way, enjoy :001_tt2:


Eating 500g protein a day would make me fvcking grumpy aswell :lol:


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## Prince Adam (Mar 17, 2012)

Ok, my mate rants on about not needing that much protein.

So I simply ask if you cut protein which macro would you up to replace the calories?


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## Heath (Mar 3, 2011)

Prince Adam said:


> So I simply ask if you cut protein which macro would you up to replace the calories?


Assuming adequate fats have already been met, carbs.


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## Prince Adam (Mar 17, 2012)

Heath said:


> Assuming adequate fats have already been met, carbs.


Mmm gotta love the carbs ;-)


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## Thunder99 (Jul 25, 2013)

500g protein? Lolwot?

In before because ifbb pro.

brb feeding my belgian blue bulls 500g protein because the grass they eat isnt enough.

500g goodnight sweet kidneys.

speaking of kidneys might wanna get them tested because 500g/day is a sure fire way of putting massive strain on them.

inb4 im a doctor blah blah.

this forum makes me laugh honestly. Should rename it uk-broscience


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## Mingster (Mar 25, 2011)

Ronnie seems to go pretty close to a 40/40/20 split with plenty of protein according to this...http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/ronnie-colemans-fitness-program.html


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## Heath (Mar 3, 2011)

ThunderKunt99 said:


> 500g protein? Lolwot?
> 
> In before because ifbb pro.
> 
> ...


Your posting style looks familiar :lol:

But fvcking lol'd


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## Heath (Mar 3, 2011)

Mingster said:


> Ronnie seems to go pretty close to a 40/40/20 split with plenty of protein according to this...http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/ronnie-colemans-fitness-program.html


Ronnie Coleman's Nutrition Program

Calories: 5562

Fats: 150g

Protein: 546g

Carbs: 474g

Bet he helped meet that protein target with


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## Mingster (Mar 25, 2011)

LOL. At no point have I suggested that anyone needs any particular amounts of protein. I eat a lot of meat, fish. chicken and eggs because I like them. I also drink a lot of milk and eat a lot of cheese. I would do this whether I trained or not. Alternatively I would never eat a sweet potato because I find them disgusting. I don't give a flying fart about muscle mass, but I do find my strength peaks when my protein levels are raised. Add in a pizza or two and the pb's come rolling in...


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## Thunder99 (Jul 25, 2013)

Inb4 everyone on the forum is ronnie coleman


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## DazUKM (Nov 22, 2012)

Blaha has spoken, no discussion is needed


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## Heath (Mar 3, 2011)

Mingster said:


> LOL. At no point have I suggested that anyone needs any particular amounts of protein. I eat a lot of meat, fish. chicken and eggs because I like them. I also drink a lot of milk and eat a lot of cheese. I would do this whether I trained or not. Alternatively I would never eat a sweet potato because I find them disgusting. I don't give a flying fart about muscle mass, but I do find my strength peaks when my protein levels are raised. Add in a pizza or two and the pb's come rolling in...


Jason Blaha who's the guy in the video I posted did say once you've met the min protein/fat requirements to basically eat whatever way you enjoy. Although did recommend 50-100% spare cals coming from carbs for performance reasons.

The key is to eat what you enjoy but also can afford.

Load of college kids etc get caught up in these crazy protein requirements and struggle financially when may not be necessary..

This is what I intended to get across when posting this up


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## Mingster (Mar 25, 2011)

Heath said:


> Jason Blaha who's the guy in the video I posted did say once you've met the min protein/fat requirements to basically eat whatever way you enjoy. Although did recommend 50-100% spare cals coming from carbs for performance reasons.
> 
> The key is to eat what you enjoy but also can afford.
> 
> ...


The most important factor in any diet is the ability to stick to it. If you're not eating stuff you enjoy this basic requirement is almost impossible to meet.


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## SkinnyJ (Apr 21, 2012)

ThunderKunt99 said:


> Inb4 everyone on the forum is ronnie coleman


Can confirm I am Coleman


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## Dark sim (May 18, 2013)

ThunderKunt99 said:


> 500g protein? Lolwot?
> 
> In before because ifbb pro.
> 
> ...


Pr1ck lol.

Kidneys can manage that fine, unless they have a predosposed condition. That is BroScience right there.

Where did you read that mens health?

therealbigbear eats quite a bit more protein than me, I'm sitting at 295lbs, he is about 320lbs+, so you calling him on that one too?


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## Dark sim (May 18, 2013)

Heath said:


> Jason Blaha who's the guy in the video I posted did say once you've met the min protein/fat requirements to basically eat whatever way you enjoy. Although did recommend 50-100% spare cals coming from carbs for performance reasons.
> 
> The key is to eat what you enjoy but also can afford.
> 
> ...


Something else to read

http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/gaining-weight/10523-extreme-eating-mass.html


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## Heath (Mar 3, 2011)

Dark sim said:


> Something else to read
> 
> http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/gaining-weight/10523-extreme-eating-mass.html


Read it ALONG time ago already..


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

I have been saying for years many guys eat too much protein, in fact today we had a discussion about this.


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

ThunderKunt99 said:


> 500g protein? Lolwot?
> 
> In before because ifbb pro.
> 
> ...


funny this forum makes you laugh and that you mention Bro science, seeing as your uneducated opinion is just that Bro Science you are just repeating what others have said without researching to form your own opinion....Bro Science at its best 

a common myth and misunderstanding by the uneducated is thinking high pro diets damage healthy kidneys there is not one shred of evidence to show that healthy kidneys are damaged by excess protein 



> Evidence in healthy individuals
> 
> Although the efficacy of high protein diets for weight loss has been evaluated, there have been no reports of protein-induced diminutions in renal function despite subject populations that are generally at risk for kidney disease (e.g., dyslipidemia, obesity, hypertension) [14,15,22,85-87]. A randomized comparison of the effects of high and low protein diets on renal function in obese individuals suggested that high protein diets did not present a health concern with regard to renal function their study population [65]. In this study, 65 overweight, but otherwise healthy, subjects adhered to a low or high protein diet for six months. *In the high protein group, both kidney size and GFR were significantly increased from that measured at baseline. No changes in albumin excretion were noted for either group and the authors concluded that, despite acute changes in renal function and size, high protein intake did not have detrimental effects on renal function in healthy individuals.* Similar findings were recently reported by Boden et al. [88] in a study of 10 subjects who consumed their typical diet for 7 days followed by strict adherence to a high protein diet for 14 days. No significant changes were noted in serum or urinary creatinine and albumin excretion, suggesting no ill-effects of a high protein diet on renal function.
> 
> ...


Ref:

90 - Lemon PW: Is increased dietary protein necessary or beneficial for individuals with a physically active lifestyle?

Nutr Rev 1996, 54(4 Pt 2):S169-75. PubMed Abstract OpenURL

65 - Skov AR, Toubro S, Bulow J, Krabbe K, Parving HH, Astrup A: Changes in renal function during weight loss induced by high vs low-protein low-fat diets in overweight subjects.

Int J Obes Relat Metab Disord 1999, 23(11):1170-1177. PubMed Abstract |

88 - Boden G, Sargrad K, Homko C, Mozzoli M, Stein TP: Effect of a Low-Carbohydrate Diet on Appetite, Blood Glucose Levels, and Insulin Resistance in Obese Patients with Type 2 Diabetes.

93 - Poortmans JR, Dellalieux O: Do regular high protein diets have potential health risks on kidney function in athletes?

Int J Sport Nutr Exerc Metab 2000, 10(1):28-38. PubMed Abstract OpenURL


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## Tinytom (Sep 16, 2005)

mattc1991 said:


> The body can only utilise so much. SCIENTIFIC FACT. Can't argue with that bro


Yes but that's like saying the body can only lift so much.

The truth of the matter is that as you train and pay stricter attention to your diet and recovery you will become a more efficient machine at processing nutrients.

I saw an interesting discussion with George Farah who talked about the same thing. It's not his much you take in but the quality of protein you take in.

For instance not many people pay strict attention to consuming at least 6g of Leucine during or after workout. This has been proven to switch on Mtor which activates your muscle building process.

Also the emphasis on BCAAs and glutamine around workout time. To stop catabolic action and so the muscle recovery and building process can begin.

The act of taking in protein during the day is to raise nitrogen levels to allow amino acids to be absorbed correctly. This allows better recovery.

However if you are overloading your gut and stomach with excess protein and creating more work for your kidneys and digestive system this does not aid the muscle building process. Notice I do not say that it will damage them. Just slow down how efficient your body can be from less stress.

The body likes a homeostasis level so you need to only push it ever so slightly higher so that the body can grow bigger without stress on the internal organs.

For example. I am 96kg and very lean. I take in around 200g of protein a day from food and protein drinks.

I also take in 8g Leucine 10g glutamine and 10g of BCAAs around workout in addition to the Leucine.

I have grown consistently with no stomach bloat and a safe blood pressure.

These levels of high protein I see from guys who seriously don't need that level to grow is just a waste of money.


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## Heath (Mar 3, 2011)

Tinytom said:


> Yes but that's like saying the body can only lift so much.
> 
> The truth of the matter is that as you train and pay stricter attention to your diet and recovery you will become a more efficient machine at processing nutrients.
> 
> ...


Honestly that's a top post.


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## SkinnyJ (Apr 21, 2012)

Uh oh, teh mods are here!

Great post tiny Tom.


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## Tinytom (Sep 16, 2005)

Heath said:


> But wouldn't carbs spare muscle the same when cutting?
> 
> They should also give better performance for most people.
> 
> According to the video Dorian Yates never went over 200g protein whilst winning the Olympia.


I don't think that's correct. I saw a seminar and have spoken to him a number of times and the numbers were never that low for protein.

On one seminar he stated he started his diet at 5000 cals and dropped down to around 3500 during the diet. 200g protein would not service his needs muscle wise at the 250lbs or whatever he competed at. Plus it's only 800 cals so that means 2700 would come from fats and carbs. That's a lot of fats and carbs.


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## Dr Manhattan (Jan 8, 2012)

Bump for a watch later.


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## Thunder99 (Jul 25, 2013)

No man im not saying anything. You cant have a rational debate on this forum without estrogen flying around everywhere.

Inb4 " ****ing what pr**k, you saying i cant mass debate in a civil manner? I'll have you know the best way to mass debate is 500 posts/thread for 16 weeks followed by a standard private messaging session (pms) of nolva and clomid. Anything else is wrong and you are wrong to suggest it.

Plz stahp


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## Heath (Mar 3, 2011)

Tinytom said:


> I don't think that's correct. I saw a seminar and have spoken to him a number of times and the numbers were never that low for protein.
> 
> On one seminar he stated he started his diet at 5000 cals and dropped down to around 3500 during the diet. 200g protein would not service his needs muscle wise at the 250lbs or whatever he competed at. Plus it's only 800 cals so that means 2700 would come from fats and carbs. That's a lot of fats and carbs.


Well I can't confirm if its correct, I was just quoting Jason (maybe not 100% correctly as I'm half asleep and not watching it again tonight lol)

He did say that Yates protein recommendations have increased since the arrival of his supp store though...


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## Breda (May 2, 2011)

Tinytom said:


> Yes but that's like saying the body can only lift so much.
> 
> The truth of the matter is that as you train and pay stricter attention to your diet and recovery you will become a more efficient machine at processing nutrients.
> 
> ...


Lovely stuff

When you take the leucine, Glutamine and bcaa's is that all around your workouts?


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## Tinytom (Sep 16, 2005)

Thing is I believe (from my own mistakes) people get caught up too much in the numbers.

Yes it's good to have a rule of thumb to go by but seriously if I was to try and eat 500g of protein at my weight I'd be sick.

Remember it's not your weight that determines the need it's the LBM ie your muscle.

A taller guy than me at my weight probably won't need 200g of protein a day to gain muscle. As his body weight percentage is weighted by his bones etc.

This is something else I see a lot of. Massive overweight but muscley guys shouting about the protein numbers. How about lean out a bit, stop eating cakes for 'calories' and eat to your requirements you fat fcuk. Same guys that are 2 stone overweight before a diet. They are eating protein for 28lbs of fat which is more than they need.

Truly the only guys that 'need' 400-500g of protein a day are the Olympia mass monsters. Even then that's a lot.


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## Tinytom (Sep 16, 2005)

Breda said:


> Lovely stuff
> 
> When you take the leucine, Glutamine and bcaa's is that all around your workouts?


Pre workout

1 scoop SuperDrive

1 scoop super pump

1 scoop Concret (creatine HCL)

5g glutamine.

30 minutes later I train

1 scoop compete during workout (whey hydrolysate)

Immediately after

5g glutamine

1 scoop glycofuse

1 scoop Aminolast

6 Synthacharge caps.

2 matador.

Been doing this for a few months and recovery is vastly improved.


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## Milky (Nov 30, 2008)

Tinytom said:


> Pre workout
> 
> 1 scoop SuperDrive
> 
> ...


On a related note l bet it costs a fortune doesn't it mate ?


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## Breda (May 2, 2011)

Tinytom said:


> Pre workout
> 
> 1 scoop SuperDrive
> 
> ...


Cheers mate appreciated

I'm guna look into those things and find a cheaper alternative for gainz on a budget


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## Tinytom (Sep 16, 2005)

Milky said:


> On a related note l bet it costs a fortune doesn't it mate ?


Benefits if owning a gym.


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## Heath (Mar 3, 2011)

http://www.bulkpowders.co.uk/shop-by-category/intra-workout-supplements/complete-intra-workout.html

@Breda they even got watermelon flavour for dem gainz


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## Mingster (Mar 25, 2011)

So my spoonful's of BCAA and Glutamine and smaller spoonful of leucine around my workouts are ok then?


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## Breda (May 2, 2011)

Milky said:


> On a related note l bet it costs a fortune doesn't it mate ?


With fancy names like those of course it does. Probably cost them a fortune just to think of the names ffs


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## Breda (May 2, 2011)

Heath said:


> http://www.bulkpowders.co.uk/shop-by-category/intra-workout-supplements/complete-intra-workout.html
> 
> @Breda they even got watermelon flavour for dem gainz


Dem budget gainz

I dont care what that supp is or does if its watermelon flavour I'm havin it


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## Thunder99 (Jul 25, 2013)

Study concludes that more research is needed into high protein diets and kidney health.

So it is saying that high protein may be unhealthy in the long run or it may not more research is needed.

The size and length of the study was also very limited.

Calls me out for posting broscience, backs it up with an inconclusive study to which there will be other studies stating different findings...

ok den...


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## Heath (Mar 3, 2011)

Breda said:


> Dem budget gainz
> 
> I dont care what that supp is or does if its watermelon flavour I'm havin it


I'm nearly out of my typical white manz apple and raspberry flavour so you have inspired me to try dat watermelon :lol:


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## PaulB (Jun 6, 2010)

Nice debate. Good to see some decent information being thrown about


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## mattc1991 (Jan 2, 2012)

Heath said:


> http://www.bulkpowders.co.uk/shop-by-category/intra-workout-supplements/complete-intra-workout.html
> 
> @Breda they even got watermelon flavour for dem gainz


Do you use this? How many grams per serving?


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## Heath (Mar 3, 2011)

mattc1991 said:


> Do you use this? How many grams per serving?


20g serving, seemed to have everything @dtlv recommended me for fasted training in 1 

Only problem is it tastes great and plain water doesn't cut it now :lol:


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## Thunder99 (Jul 25, 2013)

I eat 17 chicken breasts/day is that enough or should i eat more??

thats 510g protein. Should be enough i rekon...


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## funkdocta (May 29, 2013)

Leeds89 said:


> If you're gonna write SCIENTIFIC FACT like that at least post a link to or an extract from a study.


He has hit on a good point. I cant remember where i read it but i remember something about your body storing protein ready to be used throughout the day.. and that the body will only process so much at a time So even taking in say 80g in one sitting, although it doesnt all get used straight away it can be stored and used when needed by the body. Im sure someone can find it, im going to bed and cant be ****d


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## funkdocta (May 29, 2013)

ThunderKunt99 said:


> Study concludes that more research is needed into high protein diets and kidney health.
> 
> So it is saying that high protein may be unhealthy in the long run or it may not more research is needed.
> 
> ...


Well it is purported that high protein levels can lead to kidney stones... that is worth considering.


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## Leeds89 (Feb 13, 2012)

ThunderKunt99 said:


> 500g protein? Lolwot?
> 
> In before because ifbb pro.
> 
> ...


If you've developed a way for the human body to process cellulose, as cows have, please do share.

Otherwise back to the misc you go


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## Dark sim (May 18, 2013)

Tinytom said:


> Thing is I believe (from my own mistakes) people get caught up too much in the numbers.
> 
> Yes it's good to have a rule of thumb to go by but seriously if I was to try and eat 500g of protein at my weight I'd be sick.
> 
> ...


2 stone before a cut is not much, if you weigh in excess of 300lbs.

Also if you want to become a mass mosnter, don't you have to eat like one?

I will competing in the ukbff super heavy class next year. My plan is to come on stage at circa 260lbs @ 6'2". It may not happen like this as its my fisrt comp, but this is my plan. I am bulking to 320, currently 295 16% bf.

Only started cycling this year, been on for 17 weeks now. Currently on 600mg test & 300mg NPP (for joints) per week.

My protein is at 500g, not cos thats a number I wanted to hit, just where it ended up with the amount of food I was consuming. My calories are in excess of 6000 now, but I did plateau at 5000-5500. Any suggestions where I go from here? From what youre saying my protein is too much, but my carbs are 600g, fats 200g+ already, so I should just increase these numbers?

I was utilising leucine and glutamine but have stopped for last few weeks. Will reinstate as I did feel recovery was quicker whilst using them.


----------



## Thunder99 (Jul 25, 2013)

If you are cycling then you dont need as much food as a natty.

anabolics make nutrient partitioning much more effective in regard to muscle growth.

You will still grow even at slightly above your natty maintenence cals.

When you hop on the tren time you will find yourself making gains and getting stronger even in a defecit.

Cant wait to hop back on the tren again in a few months.


----------



## Dark sim (May 18, 2013)

ThunderKunt99 said:


> If you are cycling then you dont need as much food as a natty.
> 
> anabolics make nutrient partitioning much more effective in regard to muscle growth.
> 
> ...


You can't make gains in a defecit, even with tren. Where do you read such things?

So whilst cycling what better time to eat more food, if you want to grow that is.

Thats why I see everyone around me taking much more gear than me, and half my size.

And then they wonder why they can't/don't grow, cos food is the key not steroids.

You've been on here chatting $hit all night lol. Trolling or what?

I do hope youre in f&^king top notch shape spouting so much garbage.


----------



## kefka (Apr 22, 2013)

I honestly dont even count anymore its probably like less than 100g some days 200g or more other days and i honestly havent seen the slightest difference in results from when I used to consistently eat more...


----------



## Tinytom (Sep 16, 2005)

Dark sim said:


> 2 stone before a cut is not much, if you weigh in excess of 300lbs.
> 
> Also if you want to become a mass mosnter, don't you have to eat like one?
> 
> ...


Of course there are exceptions. From your stats you sound like a hefty lump but have to see a photo really.

300lbs off season is what Dorian Yates was and what I believe phil Heath is.

If you're as big as those guys then yes you have the muscle need for 500g of protein.

If you want some specific advice I'm happy to give some pointers have you got a journal here?

I'm probably less genetically disposed to store fat so perhaps 2 stone overweight I should have said relative to height etc. I normally only drop around 4kg in a diet but it's conceivable that a bigger guy would have more to lose. 2 stone overweight for me would be massive.

Plus if you look at Flex Lewis he is quite big off season but is Mr Olympia so who am I to question that


----------



## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

ThunderKunt99 said:


> Study concludes that more research is needed into high protein diets and kidney health.
> 
> So it is saying that high protein may be unhealthy in the long run or it may not more research is needed.
> 
> ...


not at all, you obviously missed the bit where it says that there is no evidence to show that high protein diets harm healthy kidneys.......you state there will be studies to show a different conclusion (not things  ) then show me them, you try to tear these studies apart by stating size and length but you show me nothing to prove otherwise show me the studies that back up your claim that high protein diets cause kidney damage so a comparison can be made, as your comeback is weak at best

i have shown 3 study references clearly indicate there is no evidence to support the myth that you have claimed that high protein diets harm healthy kidneys. you mention Bro science yet this is all you have to give, to counter my post don't give me your uneducated opinion show me studies to prove on healthy kidneys high protein diets are harmful........


----------



## Mingster (Mar 25, 2011)

http://www.nutritionandmetabolism.com/content/2/1/25


----------



## PaulB (Jun 6, 2010)

Bump for anyone interested and hopefully more info from knowledgeable people. Good thread this


----------



## PaulB (Jun 6, 2010)

Mingster said:


> http://www.nutritionandmetabolism.com/content/2/1/25


Beat me to my bump


----------



## Dark sim (May 18, 2013)

Tinytom said:


> Of course there are exceptions. From your stats you sound like a hefty lump but have to see a photo really.
> 
> 300lbs off season is what Dorian Yates was and what I believe phil Heath is.
> 
> ...


I don't have a journal, was going to do one next year when I cut.

me @ 20st 14th Aug



me @ 21st 2nd Oct





Legs have come on nicely since these pics as the npp took hold and squatting has been become a pleasure more than a chore.

Diet

Meal 1 - 120g oats (dry), 50g whey

Meal 2 - meal 1

Meal 3 - Tin tuna or 6 eggs + 100g oats, 30g whey + 2 slices wholemeal bread

Meal 4 - 200g chicken, 250g basmati (cooked)

Meal 5 - meal 4

Meal 6 - 50g whey, 5g taurine Pre w/o shake

Meal 7 - 50g whey, 5g taurine, 5g creatine

Meal 8 - 200g+ steak + 300g potato (cooked) & 1l gold top milk

Meal 9 - 100g oats, 50g whey - been missing this lately due to illness/tiredness

I did suffer with bloat quite bad at around 20st, but I'm past that now and manage the volume of food fine. I use the oats quite a bit as they are convenient for work and it gets tiresome cooking so much food day in day out.

Your suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Richard


----------



## Tinytom (Sep 16, 2005)

Do you use any digestive enzyme type products or any fish oils etc?


----------



## TwoCanVanDamn (Jun 22, 2012)

Dark sim said:


> I don't have a journal, was going to do one next year when I cut.
> 
> me @ 20st 14th Aug
> 
> ...


Why do you feel the need to bulk to 320 to come on stage at 260? Serious question, I'm not being a d1ck


----------



## Dark sim (May 18, 2013)

TwoCanVanDamn said:


> Why do you feel the need to bulk to 320 to come on stage at 260? Serious question, I'm not being a d1ck


I don't think I am carrying enough muscle mass for my height.

I only started using gear this year, been on for 17 weeks now, so the density of muscle is not there.

I want to be a monster


----------



## Heath (Mar 3, 2011)

@Dark sim have you thought about hiring a prep coach?

Not sure getting that far from stage condition is a good idea but it's not something I'm an expert on.


----------



## TwoCanVanDamn (Jun 22, 2012)

Dark sim said:


> I don't think I am carrying enough muscle mass for my height.
> 
> I only started using gear this year, been on for 17 weeks now, *so the density of muscle is not there*.
> 
> I want to be a monster


I was thinking you didn't look like you weighed 295lbs, bit in bold probably explains why. Good luck with it mate


----------



## Dark sim (May 18, 2013)

Heath said:


> @Dark sim have you thought about hiring a prep coach?
> 
> Not sure getting that far from stage condition is a good idea but it's not something I'm an expert on.


I am holding the same bf % when I started bulking at 18 1/2st, but as its my fisrt show I am making allowances. I will bulk until I think I am carrying enough mass to fill my frame, 320lbs is just the number I think it'll be near. As you can see my bf % is still reasonable, abs are just about there, so I don't think a prep coach would serve its purpose right now. When its time to cut yes I will have one. I started my journey with Kimberly Anne Jones, and I will continue with her for my prep.

Check out Lee Priest off season if you want to see out of shape


----------



## Dark sim (May 18, 2013)

TwoCanVanDamn said:


> I was thinking you didn't look like you weighed 295lbs, bit in bold probably explains why. Good luck with it mate


Exactly why I feel the need to bulk to 320.

295lbs is morning weight too, but at 6'2" it is hard work to fill my frame.


----------



## Dark sim (May 18, 2013)

Tinytom said:


> Do you use any digestive enzyme type products or any fish oils etc?


No digestive enzymes. I use 6x1000mg fish oil daily. 5000iu vit D, 3x 1000mg vit c.


----------



## Heath (Mar 3, 2011)

@simonthepieman , you seen this vid yet?


----------



## Tinytom (Sep 16, 2005)

Dark sim said:


> No digestive enzymes. I use 6x1000mg fish oil daily. 5000iu vit D, 3x 1000mg vit c.


For that amount of food I'd definately recommend something like ravenous for aiding absorption. Also vit d3 is preferable over normal D and 10,000iu is the optimum dose for immune support.


----------



## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

I added HCL to my diet to aid in digestion, and actually gained weight.

D-3 is fine to supplement at 5000iu per day, it will bring you right in range, been doing this for some time now and I love that stuff.


----------



## simonthepieman (Jun 11, 2012)

Heath said:


> @simonthepieman , you seen this vid yet?


nope, but i know Jason and think i know what he's going to be talking about?


----------



## Thunder99 (Jul 25, 2013)

Dark sim said:


> You can't make gains in a defecit, even with tren. Where do you read such things?
> 
> So whilst cycling what better time to eat more food, if you want to grow that is.
> 
> ...


I'm fawkin zeez prah

u mad?


----------



## Heath (Mar 3, 2011)

simonthepieman said:


> nope, but i know Jason and think i know what he's going to be talking about?


Basically saying that the supp companies are the reason for crazy protein recommendations handed around.

And suggest just a protein minimum of 1-1.6g/KG BW.


----------



## Skye666 (Apr 13, 2013)

mattc1991 said:


> The body can only utilise so much. SCIENTIFIC FACT. Can't argue with that bro


Exactly this..the rest goes down the loo.


----------



## Nytol (Jul 16, 2005)

hackskii said:


> I added HCL to my diet to aid in digestion, and actually gained weight.
> 
> D-3 is fine to supplement at 5000iu per day, it will bring you right in range, been doing this for some time now and I love that stuff.


For the majority of people not living in Southern California, it won't.

Even at 10,000iu per day many are still deficient, a blood test is the only way to be sure, as we all differ in both oral absorption and how much we convert from sunlight depending on our skin tone.


----------



## Heath (Mar 3, 2011)

Nytol said:


> For the majority of people not living in Southern California, it won't.
> 
> Even at 10,000iu per day many are still deficient, a blood test is the only way to be sure, as we all differ in both oral absorption and how much we convert from sunlight depending on our skin tone.


Does bodyweight not come into how much is required tho?


----------



## SkinnyJ (Apr 21, 2012)

ThunderKunt99 said:


> I'm fawkin zeez prah
> 
> u mad?


I sense the ban hammer coming ....


----------



## Nytol (Jul 16, 2005)

Heath said:


> Does bodyweight not come into how much is required tho?


Most studies I've seen have not taken it in to account as they were all normal people.

Not sure to be honest, but if it does then even 10,000 may not put you in optimal range.

But as for lighter people, even they need a lot more than than is generally recommended by even progressive health professionals.

Life Extension Foundation has done lots of work with this, their site will contain everything you could hope to know about VitD3


----------



## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Nytol said:


> For the majority of people not living in Southern California, it won't.
> 
> Even at 10,000iu per day many are still deficient, a blood test is the only way to be sure, as we all differ in both oral absorption and how much we convert from sunlight depending on our skin tone.


Well, I do hear ya, but when I was diagnosed low they suggested 4000iu per day, I take 5000iu per day, and my blood shows that I am at the upper end of normal and not below normal like I was before.

3/4 of all people my doc tests are deficient in vitamin D.

Ever since taking that, I have been getting night time erections almost every night, and now I am getting sex dreams where I never used to get them before.

This is my fav supp to take.

I really do not get out in the sun much anymore like I used to, and as we age specifically older people they would need more.


----------



## Heath (Mar 3, 2011)

hackskii said:


> Ever since taking that, I have been getting night time erections almost every night, and now I am getting sex dreams where I never used to get them before.


Think i might up it to 10000iu :lol:


----------



## Mingster (Mar 25, 2011)

I've used 10,000iu for ages. Never see the sun round these parts...


----------



## Nytol (Jul 16, 2005)

hackskii said:


> Well, I do hear ya, but when I was diagnosed low they suggested 4000iu per day, I take 5000iu per day, and my blood shows that I am at the upper end of normal and not below normal like I was before.
> 
> 3/4 of all people my doc tests are deficient in vitamin D.
> 
> ...


You have done the right thing by getting re tested and now you know you are at the correct level.

LEF published findings that 85% of their members who utilised their blood test offers were bellow the 50ng/ml level considered optimal, and you would generally expect these people to be more health conscious than average.

A friend of mine who was supplementing with 10,000 per day had a test and he was at the upper end of normal with that dose, but in the last month or so he has been a bit inconsistent, and after a retest last week, his levels are now bellow normal and certainly bellow optimal.

It is a tragic thing that the importance of VitvD's role in the potential prevention of so many diseases is not more widely known, it costs next to nothing, and it possibly the single most important supp you could take for health.

LEF even offered the US Govt a billion free doses or something similar if they would distribute it as part of a health knowledge campaign, but they refused, (no shock there, healthy people don't buy drugs).

Very interesting that you noticed such acute effects from the supplementation, results like those would probably be a great way of convincing a wider audience to try it.


----------



## Dark sim (May 18, 2013)

Tinytom said:


> For that amount of food I'd definately recommend something like ravenous for aiding absorption. Also vit d3 is preferable over normal D and 10,000iu is the optimum dose for immune support.


Thanks for suggestions, will give them a try


----------



## Tinytom (Sep 16, 2005)

I have used 10000iu a day for about a year now. Definately feel better and healthier.

Plus almost never get ill.

Awesome stuff.


----------



## Mark2021 (Apr 13, 2012)

Farah makes a few points on protein in one of his seminars and how too much protein over a certain period of time will fukc ur kidneys up


----------



## Nytol (Jul 16, 2005)

Mark2021 said:


> Farah makes a few points on protein in one of his seminars and how too much protein over a certain period of time will fukc ur kidneys up


Hmmmm, any evidence, or just tabloid guruing?


----------



## Mark2021 (Apr 13, 2012)

Nytol said:


> Hmmmm, any evidence, or just tabloid guruing?


He just mentions how he's sent a few clients for blood work and all over checks etc and it

came back there kidneys are fcked and he's basically told them there bb career is over.

I think these guys were apparently on high high amounts of protein

Dunno weather it's true or not but he mentions it anyhow


----------



## Tinytom (Sep 16, 2005)

Nytol said:


> Hmmmm, any evidence, or just tabloid guruing?


He didn't present any evidence at the seminar.

I agree with too much food over stressing your internal organs leading to higher BP which could affect kidneys. Maybe.

But I don't believe there's any direct relation between protein and kidney damage in any study.

Problem is that a lot of high protein intake guys also use stuff like Tren etc which can also affect BP.

Too many variables.


----------



## Tinytom (Sep 16, 2005)

Mark2021 said:


> He just mentions how he's sent a few clients for blood work and all over checks etc and it
> 
> came back there kidneys are fcked and he's basically told them there bb career is over.
> 
> ...


That was Marius Dohn I believe.

See my post above for other problems related.


----------



## Nytol (Jul 16, 2005)

Mark2021 said:


> He just mentions how he's sent a few clients for blood work and all over checks etc and it
> 
> came back there kidneys are fcked and he's basically told them there bb career is over.
> 
> ...


I think the protein/kidney issue has been well and truly debunked?

I know lots of guys who eat probably too much protein who's blood work has all been fine.

Not saying that I agree with mega high protein, as I don't, I do think there is a limit to utilisation, even with high amounts of AAS, but I don't believe in high profile people throwing statements about with no science to back them up either.


----------



## Nytol (Jul 16, 2005)

Tinytom said:


> I agree with too much food over stressing your internal organs leading to higher BP which could affect kidneys. Maybe.


That is the truth right there!

If BP is OK, then the kidneys should not be stressed by protein or AAS.

I do think over consumption of food is one of the biggest health risks in BB'ing, PL'ing and Strongman.


----------



## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Nytol said:


> You have done the right thing by getting re tested and now you know you are at the correct level.
> 
> LEF published findings that 85% of their members who utilised their blood test offers were bellow the 50ng/ml level considered optimal, and you would generally expect these people to be more health conscious than average.
> 
> ...


Mine was 15 the first test, and due to vitamin D's association with testosterone production, it makes sense that there was a boost.

Prior to this, I never noticed night time erections, and perhaps maybe so infrequent I forgot, and never a sex dream, probably in a long time after my gear use anyway.

I started at 5000iu because that was a common dose and where I get mine is buy one get one free.

First night after taking it that morning I noticed night time wood, I thought wow, nice to see you, its been along time.

Next night I had a sex dream and that really woke me up.

I thought why is this happening, then it hit me.

But with a level of 15, which was far below low end of normal, I did some digging and bang found out its association with testosterone.

Since then, it is the norm.

I do notice I don't get sick as much, but I also was diagnosed with allergies and now am taking immunotherapy and this is going to take almost 2 years to fix.

I may bump that up some.

Have you heard of pulsing vitamin D being more effective than the continuous dosing?

I think it was Dave Polumbo that suggests this actually working better.

I should get out in the sun more too, I have a jeep with no top on it but never drive it.

I think 50 is the top of range correct?


----------



## Heath (Mar 3, 2011)

Can there be any harm in going too high with d3?


----------



## Nytol (Jul 16, 2005)

hackskii said:


> Mine was 15 the first test, and due to vitamin D's association with testosterone production, it makes sense that there was a boost.
> 
> Prior to this, I never noticed night time erections, and perhaps maybe so infrequent I forgot, and never a sex dream, probably in a long time after my gear use anyway.
> 
> ...


No, 50ng/ml is the bottom of the optimal range, over 50 is good, but you don't want to be any lower.

The sun is good for us in so many ways, the media has tried to make enjoying the sun something to be ashamed of when it is literally the life of this planet.

I have a soft top too, gotta love that midlife crisis 

Dave Palumbo is a total dick, but I won't go down that road, I'd be here all night 

Polliquin advocates pulsing Vit D, 30,000 3x a week I think? (but I don't read too much of his stuff), when I did read it, I don't remember there being any great reason behind doing so, but I imagine it would work equally well as taking the dose daily being a fat soluble vitamin.

Off topic, but I've had bad allergies this year, the pollen count was very high due to a late summer in the UK, but even after Hey Fever season I was still waking up with itchy eyes and sneezing etc.

My diet has been poor this year and I'd been eating wheat and oats when I wanted to, and did suspect they may be part of the problem.

Well I finally cut them out again, and within 5 days, no more allergies.

It could be coincidence, could just be me, but worth a try if they are getting you down, (you'll feel so much better physically and mentally too).


----------



## Nytol (Jul 16, 2005)

Heath said:


> Can there be any harm in going too high with d3?


Technically it can be toxic, but you would have to take an absolute $hit load for a long period of time, for that to even begin to be a factor.

There was an example of someone who took something like 200,000iu per day for months, (by mistake), and only then did he start to feel the effects of toxicity, and just realising his mistake, and stopping was enough to right the problem, so not something to worry about really.

But getting a blood test to establish the correct dose and level is a good idea, (and interesting too).


----------



## Heath (Mar 3, 2011)

Had a routine blood tests from the GP not so long ago due to constant tiredness but nothing was out of whack apparently.

Not that they even said what was actually tested for :lol:


----------



## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

Mark2021 said:


> He just mentions how he's sent a few clients for *blood work and all over checks* etc and it
> 
> came back there kidneys are fcked and he's basically told them there bb career is over.
> 
> ...


you see this is where it falls down as anyone with above normal muscle mass will give a blood test that shows compromised kidney function, as Muscle when traumatized (trained) releases creatinine into the blood, creatinine along with age and race is used in a calculation called the eGFR (estimate Glomular Filtration Rate) this in normal people has a 30% error marking it cannot be used for anyone who trained and has above normal muscle.

A blood test is a poor way to determine kidney function what needs to be done is a mGFR (m=measured) which involves an injection of a nuclear liquid into the blood then blood samples taken at 2hr interval then 3 1hr intervals this is the gold standard test unless these athletes had this done then nothing can be trusted with just a blood test

Protein does not harm healthy kidneys nor do steroids directly the biggest danger to kidneys is BP


----------



## Tinytom (Sep 16, 2005)

This thread has some awesome info on it.

Reminds me of days of old

Probably cos all the old timers are posting, including me, Im now an old timer


----------



## Milky (Nov 30, 2008)

Tinytom said:


> This thread has some awesome info on it.
> 
> Reminds me of days of old
> 
> Probably cos all the old timers are posting, including me, Im now an old timer


nearly posted the same thing mate, great thread and currently it makes a pleasant change.


----------



## TwoCanVanDamn (Jun 22, 2012)

So I should be taking 10'000iu of vitamin D?

Or should it be D3?

Sorry for dumbing down the thread I'm not really up on different supplements etc.


----------



## Heath (Mar 3, 2011)

TwoCanVanDamn said:


> So I should be taking 10'000iu of vitamin D?
> 
> Or should it be D3?
> 
> Sorry for dumbing down the thread I'm not really up on different supplements etc.


Vit d3 mate, but the stuffs cheap as your going to get for the apparent benefits


----------



## Milky (Nov 30, 2008)

If anyone is looking to buy any, Amazon is very good :thumbup1:


----------



## Robbie789 (Sep 6, 2012)

Think gonutrition do 180 5000iu Vit D, for about £9, can't go wrong there.


----------



## Milky (Nov 30, 2008)

robdobbie said:


> Think gonutrition do 180 5000iu Vit D, for about £9, can't go wrong there.


I got the 10,000 ones mate, cant remember the price TBH.

Edit ; £14 for 360 x 10,000 iu caps.


----------



## Heath (Mar 3, 2011)

robdobbie said:


> Think gonutrition do 180 5000iu Vit D, for about £9, can't go wrong there.


Bulk Powders do 270 @ 5000iu for £11.99

I really should be their rep :whistling:


----------



## Nytol (Jul 16, 2005)

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Life-Extension-Vitamin-000IU-Softgels/dp/B000GTFOBA

Slightly more expansive maybe, but independently tested as great quality, unlike many other supps.

Great company too, they ship stuff to me faster from Florida than pretty much any domestic company does from the UK.


----------



## Hotdog147 (Oct 15, 2011)

I've been taking Vit D3 for about 2 years now

I use these...... http://www.amazon.co.uk/Healthy-Origins-Vitamin-Gels-capsules/dp/B002LC1INI/ref=sr_1_1?s=drugstore&ie=UTF8&qid=1384461271&sr=1-1&keywords=vitamin+d3+5000iu

But does anybody supplement it with vit K2?


----------



## Nytol (Jul 16, 2005)

Hotdog147 said:


> I've been taking Vit D3 for about 2 years now
> 
> I use these...... http://www.amazon.co.uk/Healthy-Origins-Vitamin-Gels-capsules/dp/B002LC1INI/ref=sr_1_1?s=drugstore&ie=UTF8&qid=1384461271&sr=1-1&keywords=vitamin+d3+5000iu
> 
> But does anybody supplement it with vit K2?


I use the one from LEF with K2 already in it, but good point


----------



## Hotdog147 (Oct 15, 2011)

Nytol said:


> I use the one from LEF with K2 already in it, but good point


Well, I've been doing a bit more research into lately and I'm really starting to think the K2 is essential

Thinking of changing to these.... http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/261167512375?var=560182760839&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649&clk_rvr_id=544394744909

Thought the stuff you linked was on the pricey side tbh, but if it has added K2 then I suppose it's not too bad


----------



## Nytol (Jul 16, 2005)

Hotdog147 said:


> Well, I've been doing a bit more research into lately and I'm really starting to think the K2 is essential
> 
> Thinking of changing to these.... http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/261167512375?var=560182760839&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649&clk_rvr_id=544394744909
> 
> Thought the stuff you linked was on the pricey side tbh, but if it has added K2 then I suppose it's not too bad


That one was just D3, but if you go to the LEF website you will see the actual prices, Amazon UK is charging more as they have been imported and that is the non member price.

If you join LEF for about £100 a year, then the 1st year you get a load of interesting books, then each year after that you get product credit almost equal to the membership costs, even for us in the UK, (it costs more as they send a magazine each month which is a very good read).

So it is essentially free, plus you get a big discount on the products, I get all of my health products from there.

Concentrated Omegas, D3, K2, CDP choline, No Flush Niacin, Olive Leaf caps (excellent for BP and vascular health), digestive enzymes, L-theanine, and sometimes Magnesium, but I prefer another US brand of that.

I order 2-3 times a year, and it arrives within 48hrs


----------



## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

I believe the leading cause of kidney disease is diabetes, followed by high blood pressure.

Many years ago it was suggested that boron be a testosterone booster, and to some degree curbs some aromatase activity.

It was also suggested it worked due to some uptake of vitamin D causing this.

There is some study floating around to its test boosting abilities.


----------



## Tinytom (Sep 16, 2005)

There was an article in MD a little while ago about Vit D3 and test boosting. Quite a good read.


----------



## Tinytom (Sep 16, 2005)

@Nytol. What does k2 do?


----------



## TwoCanVanDamn (Jun 22, 2012)

So all this time I've been taking 5000iu of Vitamin D per day have I been p1ssing in the wind?


----------



## Milky (Nov 30, 2008)

TwoCanVanDamn said:


> So all this time I've been taking 5000iu of Vitamin D per day have I been p1ssing in the wind?


Unfortunatly it would seem so.


----------



## Nytol (Jul 16, 2005)

Tinytom said:


> @Nytol. What does k2 do?


http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2009/jan2009_Vitamin-K-Protection-Against-Arterial-Calcification-Bone-Loss-Cancer-Aging_01.htm

This explains it better than I can mate, the potential to protect against arterial calcification is a pretty big thing.



TwoCanVanDamn said:


> So all this time I've been taking 5000iu of Vitamin D per day have I been p1ssing in the wind?


Not at all.

Just because 10,000 may put you in optimal range, does not mean that the 5000iu you were taking was not doing immeasurably good things for you and your immune system.

Upping it to 10,000 will likely do a bit more.


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## Heath (Mar 3, 2011)

Milky said:


> Unfortunatly it would seem so.


 @dtlv recommends 5000iu for those under 80kg and 10000iu for those over I believe.

Gotta trust me coach


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## Milky (Nov 30, 2008)

Heath said:


> @dtlv recommends 5000iu for those under 80kg and 10000iu for those over I believe.
> 
> Gotta trust me coach


Yep, always do as your told, its why you pay him.


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## Chunkee (Sep 1, 2012)

Upon the great advice in here i will up my D3 to 10,000iu's, quick question - would it be anymore beneficial to spread this dose throught the day or take the 10,000iu all at once? I take all my pills before bed normally...


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## Nytol (Jul 16, 2005)

Chunkee said:


> Upon the great advice in here i will up my D3 to 10,000iu's, quick question - would it be anymore beneficial to spread this dose throught the day or take the 10,000iu all at once? I take all my pills before bed normally...


It will make no difference at all, it is a fat soluble vitamin, so hangs around for a while.


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## Hotdog147 (Oct 15, 2011)

Tinytom said:


> @Nytol. What does k2 do?


Some good info here mate.... http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2013/10/19/vitamin-d-vitamin-k2.aspx


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## Nytol (Jul 16, 2005)

Hotdog147 said:


> Some good info here mate.... http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2013/10/19/vitamin-d-vitamin-k2.aspx


That's a good link.

I used to like Mercola, but then he went a bit odd and seemed anti everything, and started bombarding me with news letter, so I blocked him and kind of forgot about him, but I generally agree with most of what he says, (at least I did a few years back when I read it).


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

I like Mercola as well, and some of the stuff he suggests is a good read, he did have a bit of a feud with Dr. Ozz over vaccinations, that was pretty crazy.


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## Leeds89 (Feb 13, 2012)

Dr Mercola also touted his UV panels as a great cure to acne. £150 and no reduction in acne later, I realized to take everything you read with a pinch of salt


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

Heath said:


> @dtlv recommends 5000iu for those under 80kg and 10000iu for those over I believe.
> 
> Gotta trust me coach


Yep, but those are not ceiling figures, rather they are minimal intake figures if you are going to supplement - perfectly fine to go higher, up to 20,000mg is gonna be ok for most people if they wanted to try a higher dose, especially during the grey, dark, dank winter.

An interesting tidbit to the seasonal needs of d3 is that ethnicity is a considerable but often unconsidered variable here - basically those who are dark skinned with high skin pigmentation levels are not be able to photosynthesize as much d3 in their skin as someone light skinned. The difference from sun exposure can be as much as several thousand IU's, especially in winter months, and is to the point where inadequate d3 levels are more common in dark skinned populations compared to caucasians even where hours of sunlight exposure and dietary intake of vit d is similar... basically in the winter if you are dark skinned d3 supplementation to a decent dose is a very good idea, and will likely be quite impactful.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Also elder people's skin won't work quite as well either, so they need to supplement more, along with vitamin B-12 due to a bit of a loss of digestion.


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## Mclovin147 (Nov 11, 2013)

I've also heard that your body can only utilise so much protein per day, and that more often than not you literally **** the rest away (No links, just what I've heard etc)

But like previously said, too much protein can't hurt, so better to have more than less.

The lads I know only hit like 300-400g's a day when their on Dbol/Test etc


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## Trev182 (Sep 24, 2013)

Studies show that the body can only use up to 0.83grams of protein per lb of bodyweight in a natural bodybuilder. So if you weigh 150lbs, your body can only realistically use 124.50grams of protein, any more is a waste, in saying that most people use 1g of protein per lb of bodyweight as its easier to calculate, 150lbs weight = 150g protein.

I dont know of any studies that will show what a juiced up bodybuilder would be able to utilise protein wise, but id imagine that figure will be sufficiently more


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## Mclovin147 (Nov 11, 2013)

Trev182 said:


> Studies show that the body can only use up to 0.83grams of protein per lb of bodyweight in a natural bodybuilder. So if you weigh 150lbs, your body can only realistically use 124.50grams of protein, any more is a waste, in saying that most people use 1g of protein per lb of bodyweight as its easier to calculate, 150lbs weight = 150g protein.
> 
> I dont know of any studies that will show what a juiced up bodybuilder would be able to utilise protein wise, but id imagine that figure will be sufficiently more


Good info to know mate.

I've heard that Dbol alone can increase protein synthesis by upto 400%!

Anyone here able to confirm or dismiss?


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## Prince Adam (Mar 17, 2012)

Trev182 said:


> Studies show that the body can only use up to 0.83grams of protein per lb of bodyweight in a natural bodybuilder. So if you weigh 150lbs, your body can only realistically use 124.50grams of protein, any more is a waste, in saying that most people use 1g of protein per lb of bodyweight as its easier to calculate, 150lbs weight = 150g protein.
> 
> I dont know of any studies that will show what a juiced up bodybuilder would be able to utilise protein wise, but id imagine that figure will be sufficiently more


Which studies?


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

These limits to the amount of protein a person can utilise that keep being mentioned... can people please technically explain how those limits are measured and what exactly is being limited?

Also, are they fixed values for everyone, values from a single test subject or are they averages over participants in a study?

Can such values for protein utilisation for various physiological functions alter with time when faced with a new protein intake or are those values fixed?

Would also like to know what people mean when they say excess protein is a waste - what does that mean in respect of what happens to it?

How do measures like the PDCAAS value or amino acid balance of a protein feed influence things?

I think all of those points need clarifying before we can be confident with the accuracy of any answers on this topic.


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## Trev182 (Sep 24, 2013)

Prince Adam said:


> Which studies?


http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/bbprotein.htm

under neath the graph lists some of the studies, i will find more later once i get on my computer rather than my phone.


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