# Please help out with research



## SR_Medic (Mar 10, 2015)

Dear forum members,

I am a UK based physician with an interest in endocrinology, I'm also an avid bodybuilding enthusiast who has been lifting for 7 years.

In my recent practice, I have been encountering more and more patients, of all ages, experiencing problems, that can to varying degrees, be attributed to steroid and peptide usage.

Due to the unique nature of the patient population, it has been difficult to find good quality research that address the problems directly.

In order to gain better understanding of my patients' issues, I have decided to turn to the wider bodybuilding communities, hoping that I can gather the relevant information needed, to direct the management of these patients, and to provide helpful advice to future cohorts.

For instance, several people have mentioned to me, that they are worried about the condition, known among the bodybuilding community as "Palumboism", as far as I know there isn't a single piece of research addressing this particular condition. The medical community knows very little about these conditions, therefore it is difficult to consider any long term management plans, and the treatments/preventative measures for possible complications.

I am hoping for some feedbacks, from lifters who have been using steroidal as well as peptide supplements.

I would like for you to give me some information regarding the compounds used, their dosages, methods of administration (i.e., oral, topical, injectables, be that intramuscular, subcutaneous or intravenous), length of supplementation, any side effects exhibited during or after the supplementation.

I would also appreciate any information regarding any issues that required hospitalisation and subsequent treatments received.

As I am new to this forum, this thread may be misplaced. Should anyone know of a better place to post it, please let me know.

Kind regards,

SR_Medic


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

welcome to the forum, please can you be more specific on the issues the patients you have seen have experienced with the use of peptides plus what peptides you are referring to?


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## SR_Medic (Mar 10, 2015)

Pscarb said:


> welcome to the forum, please can you be more specific on the issues the patients you have seen have experienced with the use of peptides plus what peptides you are referring to?


Hi Pscarb,

I have posted this thread asking for help in several sections, and the reactions I have gotten in return have been somewhat unexpected. People have come across rather defensive, it is quite possibly because I am new to the forum and they are being understandably cautious.

Thank you for taking your time to read and understand the aim of my thread.

Now back to my question:

I have come across 2 patients, both have 5 years or more history of GH, IGF-1 analogue, insulin as well as concurrent use of oral/injectable androgens. Both of them have complained of increased joint pain and swelling, one had carpal tunnel syndrome in both arms; as well as abdominal bloating. Others have presented with stroke/heart issues/liver cysts at younger age than we used to see.

It is my intention to acquire more knowledge of the patterns of chemical use among bodybuilders, and whether their techniques could contribute to some of the complications, for instance, I have seen a young man who had an infection of his heart valve, possibly following an accidental injection into a vein with a contaminated needle.

Could you possibly outline how a typical regimen would be used? What issues do lifters experience with the regimens? And how best could a medical professional assist in these issues?

For other readers:

I am fully aware of that I am uneducated in this field, which is precisely why I have asked for advice on this forum. I am not pretending to be an expert, because I am not. I am still rather junior in my training as a physician, but it is us that will be dealing with any acute complications when one is admitted to the hospital.

I am simply looking to better understand my patients, and know better what to look out for as to minimise further preventable complications.

I had hoped that members of the forum would be more receptive to someone who understands a little about their passion, and is actively trying to help.

I am also aware that many healthcare professionals regard the issues bodybuilders/strength athletes have as self inflicted, you have a chance of educating one of them right now, please take this opportunity to teach me!

Regards,

SR_Medic


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## Dave_shorts (Jan 4, 2015)

I've been involved in much research here in Ireland in relation to IPEDs. However, ethical approval for the research has always been an issue. Is this your personal quest for information or is it part of wider research??


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## Dave_shorts (Jan 4, 2015)

As for your question. Injection protocols vary hugely. From people who are super clean and hygienic like myself to people who reuse needles and who wouldn't know what an alcohol wipe was if it hit them in the face.

Or are you talking about the drug protocol itself??


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## SR_Medic (Mar 10, 2015)

Dave_shorts said:


> As for your question. Injection protocols vary hugely. From people who are super clean and hygienic like myself to people who reuse needles and who wouldn't know what an alcohol wipe was if it hit them in the face.
> 
> Or are you talking about the drug protocol itself??


Hi Dave,

This is purely for my personal learning, research in the title, was not written in a scientific sense, as I am asking for anecdotal accounts. Also I was hoping to obtain some practical information regarding common practices among users, so that I can watch out for complications, and direct my management plans accordingly.

I have come across abscesses due to poor injection techniques and synthol injections; as I've described in the previous comment, the young man with valve infection, which we suspected, was a result of accidental injection into a vein.

Do majority of lifters use intramuscular needles+syringes? Do you know of anyone who injects IV at all? I presume insulin is injected subcutaneously (there have been unexplained hypos in some kids, but I have no proof it was related to that)? I'm trying to gauge how much the average lifter knows about how each compound should be used. And where do they learn about injection techniques, dosages etc without the guidance of blood tests?

Also it would be helpful to know about what the general consensus is regarding the side effects of long term usage of each compound.

How likely would it be for them to see a doctor about these side effects?

I have heard of the use of hCG post cycle to reverse testicular atrophy, how prevalent is this practice in real life?

Sorry to bombard you with so many questions Dave, it's just been rather difficult to get people to engage thus far.

Thank you in advance.

Regards


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## Yes (May 4, 2014)

Hey mate, were you on bodybuilding.com a few days ago?


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## T100 (Oct 8, 2011)

SR_Medic said:


> Hi Dave,
> 
> This is purely for my personal learning, research in the title, was not written in a scientific sense, as I am asking for anecdotal accounts. Also I was hoping to obtain some practical information regarding common practices among users, so that I can watch out for complications, and direct my management plans accordingly.
> 
> ...


You may find people a lot more helpfull regarding information if they knew who you where

steroids are a very taboo Subject in society due to how the media etc portray users, raul moat being one of them, which is why hardly anyone will have an avi of their faces or have a user name that gives away their idendity, if you have your own reasons for annonimity their fair enough, but if your a doctor who is genuine in just researching AAS use then I'm sure people would be happy to answer your questions and I doubt many people on her who use steroids would object to having a doctor on the forum


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## WilsonR6 (Feb 14, 2012)

I'm happy to provide any information on my personal experience

Send me a personal message with any questions you have and I'll reply as soon as I read it

Don't worry about the hostile people, this forum has a very 'bandwagony' culture - if your thread starts well it'll usually end well (minus a few who come here solely to post abuse, for one reason or another), if your thread starts with abuse, no doubt it'll become a totally pointless thread within hours


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## T100 (Oct 8, 2011)

WilsonR6 said:


> I'm happy to provide any information on my personal experience
> 
> Send me a personal message with any questions you have and I'll reply as soon as I read it
> 
> Don't worry about the hostile people, this forum has a very 'bandwagony' culture - if your thread starts well it'll usually end well (minus a few who come here solely to post abuse, for one reason or another), if your thread starts with abuse, no doubt it'll become a totally pointless thread within hours


I didn't think I came across as hostile?


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## GaryMatt (Feb 28, 2014)

I don't mind helping out.


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## WilsonR6 (Feb 14, 2012)

T100 said:


> I didn't think I came across as hostile?


not you mate

the people who he mentioned in his post


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## T100 (Oct 8, 2011)

WilsonR6 said:


> not you mate
> 
> the people who he mentioned in his post


Oh right, thought what I said may have read different to how I wrote it haha


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## SR_Medic (Mar 10, 2015)

Thank you for all your responses, this is wonderful!

If you guys have questions regarding the general health and how to safely administer medication I am happy to answer them, if I do not know the answer, I will gladly comb through research and guidelines. I cannot however, give out individualised medical advice for obvious reasons.

if you don't mind, could you share with me some of the issues you have come across whilst using various protocols? How you administer the compounds and anything in particular that you are worried about?

You can also include how you'd like the medical professionals to handle these problems. Many doctors, even endocrine specialist do not have a lot of experience with the effects of supra-physiological doses of these compounds, it would be great to hear from you first hand, what effects each of the compound has had.

You can either share in on this thread, or send me messages.

Thank you so much!


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## SR_Medic (Mar 10, 2015)

Yes said:


> Hey mate, were you on bodybuilding.com a few days ago?


Hey, I have not been on bb.com , but perhaps I should cast my net wider


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## SR_Medic (Mar 10, 2015)

WilsonR6 said:


> I'm happy to provide any information on my personal experience
> 
> Send me a personal message with any questions you have and I'll reply as soon as I read it
> 
> Don't worry about the hostile people, this forum has a very 'bandwagony' culture - if your thread starts well it'll usually end well (minus a few who come here solely to post abuse, for one reason or another), if your thread starts with abuse, no doubt it'll become a totally pointless thread within hours


Hey WilsonR6,

I've tried to send a message, but apparently I do not yet have the permission to send new messages, not sure why that is, do I need a certain number of posts first before it is activated?


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## BestUserName (Apr 4, 2012)

I ran a 16 week course of 500ml test e everything went fine until pct.

Standard hcg, clomid, tamoxifen.

Then came the acne! Could not get hold of Isotretinoin, docs prescribed a very long course of antibiotics.

In the mean time waiting 3 months to see a skin specialist the acne got worse and worse no matter what i tried and believe me i tried!

In the end my body couldn't take it anymore and could not handle the infection and started to attack itself and ended up with an auto immune disease known (or not very well known as the case was) as SAPHO syndrome.

Treatment was a Pamidronate drip once a week until pain in the bones and the growths in the joints subsided. Also Tramadol, Isotretinoin, and various other meds for the pain.

Could all of been avioded with some Isotretinoin.

There was a team of specalists involved in the diagnosis which took quite some time.


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## Yes (May 4, 2014)

SR_Medic said:


> Hey, I have not been on bb.com , but perhaps I should cast my net wider


There was an urologist on there doing a survey on steroid usage, that's why I asked. Just to say though, steroid talk is not allowed on there without strict permission from the mods.


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## SR_Medic (Mar 10, 2015)

T100 said:


> You may find people a lot more helpfull regarding information if they knew who you where
> 
> steroids are a very taboo Subject in society due to how the media etc portray users, raul moat being one of them, which is why hardly anyone will have an avi of their faces or have a user name that gives away their idendity, if you have your own reasons for annonimity their fair enough, but if your a doctor who is genuine in just researching AAS use then I'm sure people would be happy to answer your questions and I doubt many people on her who use steroids would object to having a doctor on the forum


Hi T100,

I appreciate your candour, and I completely understand the stigma associated with steroid/peptide use. I understand the passion that drive it, personally I would much rather take care of passionate and driven people with a goal in mind. I do not require names, contact details, or anything that could give away the member's identity. I'm here to learn, so that I could better help my patients in clinical settings.

Regards


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## SR_Medic (Mar 10, 2015)

T100 said:


> You may find people a lot more helpfull regarding information if they knew who you where
> 
> steroids are a very taboo Subject in society due to how the media etc portray users, raul moat being one of them, which is why hardly anyone will have an avi of their faces or have a user name that gives away their idendity, if you have your own reasons for annonimity their fair enough, but if your a doctor who is genuine in just researching AAS use then I'm sure people would be happy to answer your questions and I doubt many people on her who use steroids would object to having a doctor on the forum





Yes said:


> There was an urologist on there doing a survey on steroid usage, that's why I asked. Just to say though, steroid talk is not allowed on there without strict permission from the mods.


I see. The urologist should probably try here haha, as long as he's not put off within the first couple of days


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## 31205 (Jan 16, 2013)

I once injected some dodgy tren and a few hours later thought my appendix had burst or something. Was doubled over in pain. Went to a&e but was waiting 5 hours to be seen and was better by then. Doctor just said "don't take steroids".


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## SR_Medic (Mar 10, 2015)

BestUserName said:


> I ran a 16 week course of 500ml test e everything went fine until pct.
> 
> Standard hcg, clomid, tamoxifen.
> 
> ...


Hi there, I'm really sorry to hear about what happened. Sounds like you've gone through quite an ordeal.

How many courses have you done prior to this one?

How did you administer each of the drugs?

Roughly how old are you?

Have you used any other compounds besides these ones?


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## SR_Medic (Mar 10, 2015)

sen said:


> I once injected some dodgy tren and a few hours later thought my appendix had burst or something. Was doubled over in pain. Went to a&e but was waiting 5 hours to be seen and was better by then. Doctor just said "don't take steroids".


Hi sen, thank you for your response,

How does one find trenbolone? Internet? Did you inject into glutes/ thigh?

Where about was the pain on your abdomen? What type of pain (sharp, dull ache, burning, cramping) was it? Was it continuous or did it come and go? How quickly did the pain come on after injection?

Did you notice any other symptoms at all?

Have used it since that time? Any adverse reactions?


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## SR_Medic (Mar 10, 2015)

Dear all,

I still cannot figure out how to send/receive private messages, I have set up an email: [email protected]

If you would rather share it privately, you can send me an email. Should you wish to remain anonymous, you can use an email address under a pseudonym.

Regards


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## T100 (Oct 8, 2011)

SR_Medic said:


> Hi T100,
> 
> I appreciate your candour, and I completely understand the stigma associated with steroid/peptide use. I understand the passion that drive it, personally I would much rather take care of passionate and driven people with a goal in mind. I do not require names, contact details, or anything that could give away the member's identity. I'm here to learn, so that I could better help my patients in clinical settings.
> 
> Regards


I can't add as much as others on the forum can but last year I ran a 12 weeks cycle that looked like this

1-12 test e 600mg pw

4-12 tren a 300mg pw

12-15 Winstrol at 50mg per day

15-19 clomid 100/50/50/50

15-19 nolva 20/20 /20 /20

I ran hcg at 1000iu per week from week 2-15

Adex at 0.5 every 3 days from week 2 to 15

Only complocation I had was changing my adex dose to 0.25 every 3 days for 1 week, my left nipple became a little painful but went back to 0.5 and it was soon gone

Test and tren was injected im, with proper injection protocall, in quads and delts rotating sites each injection

HCG was injected sub q in the stomach at 500iu twice per week

Winstrol was taken oraly

The only other phsyical affect I may have got was slight hair loss on my head, but I could just be going bald haha

Phsycologically my aggression became slightly worse and temper a little shorter than normal, but I'm pretty short tempered at times anyway, as for the Phsycologicall affects of the tren it could well have made me slightly more paranoid and low at times, but again I have suffered depression and life wasn't good at the time anyway

I also felt great psychologically more than the above through the cycle, more confident, more energy, happier 90% of the time and the boost in libido is a plus after 8 years of marriage haha, although this soon leveled out

Not sure if that's any help at all, and once I had finished my pct and dropped the water weight I was around 12lb heavier and less body fat than when I started


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## 31205 (Jan 16, 2013)

SR_Medic said:


> Hi sen, thank you for your response,
> 
> How does one find trenbolone? Internet? Did you inject into glutes/ thigh?
> 
> ...


I inject glutes, thighs or deltoids. Pain was a cramping in stomach just at bottom of rib cage on left side. Haven't used that particular bottle since. Didn't dare. It was 2nd time I'd had stomach pains from it in a couple of days. First time I felt like I was being squeezed. Pulse, blood pressure, temperature were fine though. Doctor listened to my lungs and said they were both filling up fine, no wheezing.

First time I've had issues with steroids in over 10 years. Apart from gyno, of course.

I never do post cycle therapy and never had any low test symptoms.


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## SR_Medic (Mar 10, 2015)

T100 said:


> 1-12 test e 600mg pw
> 
> 4-12 tren a 300mg pw
> 
> ...


Thank you very much T100.

Could you help me with the nomenclature on the protocol?

The 1-12 signifies the number of weeks, and you switch from IM to oral steroid from 12th week, and PCT started after week 15?

The numbers after PCT meds, are those dosage in mg for each week? Do you take those weekly or is that a daily dose?

nolvadex= tamoxifen

adex= aromatase inhibitor

Did I miss anything?


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## SR_Medic (Mar 10, 2015)

sen said:


> I inject glutes, thighs or deltoids. Pain was a cramping in stomach just at bottom of rib cage on left side. Haven't used that particular bottle since. Didn't dare. It was 2nd time I'd had stomach pains from it in a couple of days. First time I felt like I was being squeezed. Pulse, blood pressure, temperature were fine though. Doctor listened to my lungs and said they were both filling up fine, no wheezing.
> 
> First time I've had issues with steroids in over 10 years. Apart from gyno, of course.
> 
> I never do post cycle therapy and never had any low test symptoms.


I see. It doesn't sound like your appendix, as it is usually pain in the right hand side near the groin.

Did you have any pain in your back? Loin region?

What dosages do you usually use? And how long do you use them for? Do you have a break or do you use them continuously?

How do you know whether you have taken enough? I presume you do not go to your GP and ask them to test your T levels?

It's all very helpful info sen, thank you very much!


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## SR_Medic (Mar 10, 2015)

GaryMatt said:


> I don't mind helping out.


Thank you GaryMatt

What are your experience with various protocols?


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## T100 (Oct 8, 2011)

SR_Medic said:


> Thank you very much T100.
> 
> Could you help me with the nomenclature on the protocol?
> 
> ...


No, sorry I should have been cleared, the pct meds are daily but split into weeks, just a shorter way of typing them, so clomid would be 100mg daily week 1, then 50mg per day for remaining 3 weeks, nolva 20mg daily for 4 weeks

As for my own injection protocall would be,

Take out vial and wipe the top of the vial with an alcohol wipe, open packaging of 3ml syringe, attach 1.5 green needle, draw what ever amount of air into syringe that I will draw from the vial, insert air into vial and withdraw oil, then add a blue 1.25 needle for quads or 1 inch orange for delts, I then leave it on something to heat a little while I swab the injection site with an alcohol wipe twice, inject the needle, aspirate then slowly inject oil, I then swab the area again with a wipe and then cover the injection site with a small plaster

Pretty much as detailed as I can think this time in the morning

Switching from Im to an oral steroid was purely to cover the 3 weeks gap to pct as it would be out of my system quicker than the test e , the steroid I used was to give the muscle a hardend look and give a leaner look, not as bloaty as some other oral steroids


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## 31205 (Jan 16, 2013)

SR_Medic said:


> I see. It doesn't sound like your appendix, as it is usually pain in the right hand side near the groin.
> 
> Did you have any pain in your back? Loin region?
> 
> ...


It started with a pain in my back. About mid way up. Felt like something pushing against it. It was 2 weeks ago now though and I feel fine.

Dosages I use varies. At the moment I'm using 500mg test enanthate per week and 50mg winstrol (oral) every day. Before this I was using 250 test enanthate. 600 trenbolone enanthate. 400 masteron enanthate per week. Did that for about ten weeks maybe. Can't remember exactly.

Usually if I stop using, I stop training. Without gear I don't feel like I'm making progress so I lose motivation. You could say I'm addicted. I'll be on this dosage for another 6 weeks then I'll drop to 250mg test enanthate every week for about ten weeks then 500 test and 500 deca until probably November.


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## Dave_shorts (Jan 4, 2015)

SR_Medic said:


> Hi Dave,
> 
> This is purely for my personal learning, research in the title, was not written in a scientific sense, as I am asking for anecdotal accounts. Also I was hoping to obtain some practical information regarding common practices among users, so that I can watch out for complications, and direct my management plans accordingly.
> 
> ...


I don't mind helping out. As I mentioned, I've been ivolved on much informal and academic research.

In terms of injection protocols, from speaking to 100s, if not more, of users, I have learned that most do NOT have a safe protocol. People don't see an injection as an invasive procedure. Many infections would be user related as I mentioned in my old post. Then you also have the UGL oils that people use. Some of it is horrifically made.....For example I have seen hairs floating in some bottles.

For the most part, oils are injected IM. HGH and indulin is injected subq. It's rare that people inject IV but this would usually be done with HGH. That said, I have had novice users ask what vein they inject their oils into.

How much does the average lifter know about various compounds? NOTHING AT ALL (now watch people jump down my throat). The average lifter is told what to take buy someone in the gym or their supplier. They are told how many ML to take and have no concept of MG. Obviously, there are many people who know more than medical professionals. For example I teach my GP when getting bloods done. Nonetheless, the average gym goer does not educate themselves. They read a small bit on a forum and that is all. Or they ask people in the gym.

HCG is very frequently used.

In terms of seeking medical advice, I think most will try to fix things themselves by self medicating. Only as a last resort will they go to a GP or the hospital.

You must remember that with all of these answers there are many psychological reasons to them too. Bodybuilders etc are egoistic individuals who usually feels they are right......and I'm qualified to say this as I've a PhD in psychology!! You need to understand the thought process too.

Dave


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## GaryMatt (Feb 28, 2014)

I'll be chiming in until you can pm.


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## SR_Medic (Mar 10, 2015)

MissMartinez said:


> You might find a book called Anabolics by William Llelwyn useful. A lot of recreational bodybuilders would have referenced this book for information on steroids types and protocols until they became more advanced or sophisticated with drug cycles.


Thank you Miss Martinez, I will take a look

Regards


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## SR_Medic (Mar 10, 2015)

T100 said:


> No, sorry I should have been cleared, the pct meds are daily but split into weeks, just a shorter way of typing them, so clomid would be 100mg daily week 1, then 50mg per day for remaining 3 weeks, nolva 20mg daily for 4 weeks
> 
> As for my own injection protocall would be,
> 
> ...


That's very helpful thank you.

Your injection technique sounds very sensible indeed, I cannot add more.

For test e injection, would you use outer thigh or glutes?

As for the oil, I presume you will inject into where ever more fullness is needed, therefore all heads of the muscles? How do you navigate the complex anatomy of the inner thigh? There are a lot of nerves/arteries/lymphatics in that region, or do you avoid the inner thigh altogether?


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## SR_Medic (Mar 10, 2015)

MissMartinez said:


> You might find a book called Anabolics by William Llelwyn useful. A lot of recreational bodybuilders would have referenced this book for information on steroids types and protocols until they became more advanced or sophisticated with drug cycles.


Hi again MissMartinez,

Do you have experience with, or do you know of women lifters who use various compounds to assist their progress?

It would appear that supplementing with exogenous hormones will take much greater toll on a female body than that of a male's. Would a female lifter still use oestrogen blockers and aromatase inhibitors after each cycle? I would imagine the side effects are somewhat different than that of a males, virilisation amongst the chief effects?

It would be great to hear the story from some women lifters, thank you again for contributing.

Regards


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## SR_Medic (Mar 10, 2015)

sen said:


> It started with a pain in my back. About mid way up. Felt like something pushing against it. It was 2 weeks ago now though and I feel fine.
> 
> Dosages I use varies. At the moment I'm using 500mg test enanthate per week and 50mg winstrol (oral) every day. Before this I was using 250 test enanthate. 600 trenbolone enanthate. 400 masteron enanthate per week. Did that for about ten weeks maybe. Can't remember exactly.
> 
> Usually if I stop using, I stop training. Without gear I don't feel like I'm making progress so I lose motivation. You could say I'm addicted. I'll be on this dosage for another 6 weeks then I'll drop to 250mg test enanthate every week for about ten weeks then 500 test and 500 deca until probably November.


You've mentioned in your previous post, that you've never experienced symptoms of low test. What is the longest period of time you've gone without orals+injectables?

How old are you roughly sen? Do you go to your GP for a routine check up from time to time? How willing would you be to reveal to your GP that you are taking androgens?


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## T100 (Oct 8, 2011)

SR_Medic said:


> That's very helpful thank you.
> 
> Your injection technique sounds very sensible indeed, I cannot add more.
> 
> ...


I personally use my quads and delts, with my quads it's the outer part of the quad, never the inner, as for navigating the Veins and arteries I have hit a few veins, darker blood gives that away, but it's all chance and why I aspirate, never drawn blood when aspirating but if I did I would take the needle out, change to a new sterile needle and try again, had a few injections where I have felt pain once midway through the injection but I just keep going till I pass that point


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## Ekseliksis (Jul 8, 2014)

SR_Medic said:


> That's very helpful thank you.
> 
> Your injection technique sounds very sensible indeed, I cannot add more.
> 
> ...


What is your GMC reference number? I am sure that what you are doing here is unethical and will be condemned by your superiors.

There are plenty of sources to learn about how various individuals use AAS. Here I will point you in the right direction:

>Anabolics, 9th Edition-Llewellyn

>Building the Perfect Beast-Rea

>Chemical Muscle Enhancement-Rea(EliteFTS)

>Chemical Wizardry

>Laymans Guides, Episode 3-Return of the Syringe

>Newbies Research Guide-Gear Monster

and to get a bit of historical context

>Steroid Nation-Assael


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## T100 (Oct 8, 2011)

SR_Medic said:


> That's very helpful thank you.
> 
> Your injection technique sounds very sensible indeed, I cannot add more.
> 
> ...


As for judgeing where to inject, it's roughly with my hand on my hip bone and where my middle finger tip is, first ever jab I done was lower and I got swelling on my knee and slight pain in the knee but went after a day or so, a common issue when injecting to low


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## SR_Medic (Mar 10, 2015)

Ekseliksis said:


> What is your GMC reference number? I am sure that what you are doing here is unethical and will be condemned by your superiors.
> 
> There are plenty of sources to learn about how various individuals use AAS. Here I will point you in the right direction:
> 
> ...


Hi Ekseliksis,

Why do you say this is unethical? And why a senior doctor would "condemn" it? Are you insinuating that giving out unwarranted advice anonymously, on under-researched compounds, for unlicensed purposes, with little known side effects, that could potentially have devastating interactions and complications more ethical than what I am doing?

I do not give out medical advice for people that are not under my care, I am here merely to ask advice from people who are happy to divulge. My intentions are stated clearly in my posts.

I am aware of the existence of these texts, but they do not give me the information of how a novice would be likely to misuse them (let's assume there are some legitimacy to these protocols).

Regards


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## Ekseliksis (Jul 8, 2014)

SR_Medic said:


> Hi Ekseliksis,
> 
> Why do you say this is unethical? And why a senior doctor would "condemn" it?
> 
> ...


I work in your field and I am sure that using "Dr. is doing research" is NOT something that would make your line manager happy.

Drop the handle and join without the Dr. credential and do your research.

Also, most compounds are WELL RESEARCH with tons of papers behind them. Use scopus, science direct etc to find the papers.

A novice can find a thousand ways to misuse steroids. He/she could inject them in the eye for example. Asking how can one person misuse X is asinine at best. Think the worst possible scenario, multiply it by 1000 and then you have it.

There is legitimacy to most of these protocolos. Again use google and various indexing engines to find the material you want.

Because something is not in the BNF or in your flowcharts does not mean its NOT valid.


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## Major Eyeswater (Nov 2, 2013)

@SR_Medic

I work in health informatics, and I'd be happy to help you out with this.

Can I suggest that you come up with a survey or questionnaire of some kind to give some kind of structure to your data and allow it to be turned into useful information. Otherwise you are just going to end up with a pile of assorted anecdotes which may give you a feel for what's going on, but won't give you anything quantifiable.


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## SR_Medic (Mar 10, 2015)

MissMartinez said:


> Yes, I know females who use and have used ass. They tend to stick with either anavar or winstrol. Only when they bodybuild or are serious competitors would they consider harsher chemicals like npp, masteron, primo, equipose and test prop. I however don't know any females who have personally taken anything other than anavar and winstrol.
> 
> Females would be less likely to use AIs and typically don't PCT as there's no real need to. Some competitors 4 weeks or so from comp may take nolvadex with proviron to dry up and harden the muscle for the show. Some even take tren ace at low dose for the last few weeks for that dryer harder look.
> 
> ...


Yes that is really helpful.

I'm just wondering, with such an extensive list of drugs, do lifters titrate their own doses depending on how their bodies react? There are certainly risks of interactions, and quite a few are toxic to the liver. How often do the average lifters get their bloods checked?


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## SR_Medic (Mar 10, 2015)

Major Eyeswater said:


> @SR_Medic
> 
> I work in health informatics, and I'd be happy to help you out with this.
> 
> Can I suggest that you come up with a survey or questionnaire of some kind to give some kind of structure to your data and allow it to be turned into useful information. Otherwise you are just going to end up with a pile of assorted anecdotes which may give you a feel for what's going on, but won't give you anything quantifiable.


Hi Major,

I have been thinking about a questionnaire. The answers are getting too heterogenous to keep track of. However, there are still areas that I'm unaware of, therefore, I fear I might not be able to come up with a complete questionnaire just yet.

I'll try to throw something together. Any suggestions?


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## Ekseliksis (Jul 8, 2014)

SR_Medic said:


> Hi Major,
> 
> I have been thinking about a questionnaire. The answers are getting too heterogenous to keep track of. However, there are still areas that I'm unaware of, therefore, I fear I might not be able to come up with a complete questionnaire just yet.
> 
> I'll try to throw something together. Any suggestions?


Yeah. Get ethical approval.


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## Major Eyeswater (Nov 2, 2013)

Ekseliksis said:


> Yeah. Get ethical approval.


Why is ethical approval needed for a data-collection exercise ?

Genuine question - I work in the number-crunching stage, and have never had to put a study together


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## Ekseliksis (Jul 8, 2014)

Major Eyeswater said:


> Why is ethical approval needed for a data-collection exercise ?
> 
> Genuine question - I work in the number-crunching stage, and have never had to put a study together


I work in ethics.

If this doctor collects data without ethical approval and following procedure he/she will have MAJOR issues.

Determine which review body approvals are required - Health Research Authority


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## SR_Medic (Mar 10, 2015)

Dave_shorts said:


> I don't mind helping out. As I mentioned, I've been ivolved on much informal and academic research.
> 
> In terms of injection protocols, from speaking to 100s, if not more, of users, I have learned that most do NOT have a safe protocol. People don't see an injection as an invasive procedure. Many infections would be user related as I mentioned in my old post. Then you also have the UGL oils that people use. Some of it is horrifically made.....For example I have seen hairs floating in some bottles.
> 
> ...


Hi Dave,

Your answers are thought provoking.

After reading this and some of the other members' posts, I feel that a questionnaire might be useful. Not too sure how to go about getting it validated though... It would be poorly qualitative at best. Hmmm.

You mention that you go to your GP for blood tests? How did you find the experience? Was the GP supportive?

I'm quite interested in the long term effect of HGH, whether it would cause symptoms similar to that of acromegaly. Do you know any long term users of HGH and IGF-1?

From what I could gather, HCG doesn't actually help with normalising testosterone secretion, it literally squeezes the testicles for more t, but doesn't help with restoring long term normal function. Wonder when/where/how this got started?

Thanks Dave


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## Major Eyeswater (Nov 2, 2013)

SR_Medic said:


> Hi Major,
> 
> I have been thinking about a questionnaire. The answers are getting too heterogenous to keep track of. However, there are still areas that I'm unaware of, therefore, I fear I might not be able to come up with a complete questionnaire just yet.
> 
> I'll try to throw something together. Any suggestions?


As @Ekseliksis has already said, if this is an official study rather than just a bit of personal curiosity satisfaction then you need to do it by the book.

As for formulating a questionnaire, my thought would be to read the responses here, and the threads in the Steroid section, and use them to formulate something. I would also include quantitative questions that you can derive average and standard deviation from, so that at the end of it you can say something like "The average user's total dosage is 600mg (+/- 250mg). Average cycle length is 12 weeks (+/- 4 weeks)"


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## SR_Medic (Mar 10, 2015)

Major Eyeswater said:


> As @Ekseliksis has already said, if this is an official study rather than just a bit of personal curiosity satisfaction then you need to do it by the book.
> 
> As for formulating a questionnaire, my thought would be to read the responses here, and the threads in the Steroid section, and use them to formulate something. I would also include quantitative questions that you can derive average and standard deviation from, so that at the end of it you can say something like "The average user's total dosage is 600mg (+/- 250mg). Average cycle length is 12 weeks (+/- 4 weeks)"


This is for personal learning, but Ekseliksis did not appear to read the posts. I have repeatedly stated this is to help me direct my own management plans. I did not intend to publish anything. This is purely observational, without intervention. So ethical approval does not come into this.


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## Dave_shorts (Jan 4, 2015)

SR_Medic said:


> Hi Dave,
> 
> Your answers are thought provoking.
> 
> ...


Getting it validated will be a nightmare. Pm me if you want contact details re research into IPEDs. I've been involved in many studies now. Mostly overseeing them.

Initially I found my GP to be an arrogant asshole. One he found out I knew almost everything there is yo know he accepted that I was well educated. He now finds it fainting and shares results with colleagues.

I do know long term users of the above. One very very well. Hahahaha

I don't know where the hcg thing started. Although I have run pct with and without it and my test comes back to normal much quicker following use of hCG with no other side effects as per my blood results.

I really think you need a questionnaire or at least link in with people researching. I can't give you names if needed. I assume you have access to PubMed and other journals.


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## Dave_shorts (Jan 4, 2015)

SR_Medic said:


> This is for personal learning, but Ekseliksis did not appear to read the posts. I have repeatedly stated this is to help me direct my own management plans. I did not intend to publish anything. This is purely observational, without intervention. So ethical approval does not come into this.


I did tell you people won't read and act like they have answers.


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## SR_Medic (Mar 10, 2015)

Dave_shorts said:


> Getting it validated will be a nightmare. Pm me if you want contact details re research into IPEDs. I've been involved in many studies now. Mostly overseeing them.
> 
> Initially I found my GP to be an arrogant asshole. One he found out I knew almost everything there is yo know he accepted that I was well educated. He now finds it fainting and shares results with colleagues.
> 
> ...


I don't seem to be able to use PM, each time I click send new message, it says I do not have permission to access the page. Very odd


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## Dave_shorts (Jan 4, 2015)

SR_Medic said:


> I don't seem to be able to use PM, each time I click send new message, it says I do not have permission to access the page. Very odd


I think you need to build up a post count


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## SK50 (Apr 7, 2013)

Weird thread.

OP, surely you can find these answers with google, and in fact the many steroid books, as has already been suggested.

If you actually are a medical professional, this feels like an odd approach to learning. All of your questions, curiosity and research can already be satisfied with searches on the existing millions of posts on the various steroid forums.


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## SR_Medic (Mar 10, 2015)

Dave_shorts said:


> I think you need to build up a post count


I see, shall wait for that to happen.

Bodybuilding is fascinating, from the people to the science. Shall continue to learn about it.

All I hope is that these driven people are safe whilst doing it.

Regards


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## Sku11fk (Aug 28, 2012)

Read the stickies on here.

A good portion of forum members here will use potocols widely accepted by more experienced users who have inputted to this forum


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## Ekseliksis (Jul 8, 2014)

SK50 said:


> Weird thread.
> 
> OP, surely you can find these answers with google, and in fact the many steroid books, as has already been suggested.
> 
> If you actually are a medical professional, this feels like an odd approach to learning. All of your questions, curiosity and research can already be satisfied with searches on the existing millions of posts on the various steroid forums.


This.



SR_Medic said:


> This is for personal learning, but Ekseliksis did not appear to read the posts. I have repeatedly stated this is to help me direct my own management plans. I did not intend to publish anything. This is purely observational, without intervention. So ethical approval does not come into this.


It does not matter if it is for personal learning. As long as you put Dr. or claim Dr. then you create associations with the NSH and pass any potential liability to NHS. You should not do that. Make a new handle, disassociate it from this account and do whatever you want.


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## SR_Medic (Mar 10, 2015)

SK50 said:


> Weird thread.
> 
> OP, surely you can find these answers with google, and in fact the many steroid books, as has already been suggested.
> 
> If you actually are a medical professional, this feels like an odd approach to learning. All of your questions, curiosity and research can already be satisfied with searches on the existing millions of posts on the various steroid forums.


Guess I was feeling desperately lonely


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## SK50 (Apr 7, 2013)

SR_Medic said:


> Guess I was feeling desperately lonely


If your background is as you suggest (and I apologise to suggest otherwise), the best starting point for any fact-orientated research IMO would be the hardback version of William Llewyn's 'Anabolics'. It is huge, based on fact and evidence, and you'll learn everything.


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## Dave_shorts (Jan 4, 2015)

SR_Medic said:


> Guess I was feeling desperately lonely


..........aaaaaand here comes the hostility


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## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

SR_Medic said:


> Dear forum members,
> 
> I am a UK based physician with an interest in endocrinology, I'm also an avid bodybuilding enthusiast who has been lifting for 7 years.
> 
> ...


Why dont you mind your own fkin business?


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## BigTrev (Mar 16, 2008)

Strangest thread on here yet


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## Roid-Rage (Nov 26, 2014)

SR_Medic said:


> I see, shall wait for that to happen.
> 
> Bodybuilding is fascinating, from the people to the science. Shall continue to learn about it.
> 
> ...


I think its one month on the forum and 50 posts but not 100% on that, if you want to look at the protocol I am currently using I'm 4 weeks into a year long cycle on this thread and you can post on there and answer any questions you have at any stage, I'll be happy to answer;

http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/member-journals-and-pictures/289756-roid-rages-1-a.html


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