# Muscle and fat



## IronMaiden (Mar 31, 2010)

The general rule being u need more calories to build muscle and less calories to lose...

So how do so many people in the gym keep growing and growing but are losing fat at the same time. It's obviously not that simple?

I'm talking natural here.


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## monkeybiker (Jul 21, 2010)

You can build muscle and lose fat at the same time. As you get leaner it gets harder and also as you gain more muscle it gets harder. It depends on genetics, how hard you train and how good your diet is.

Also you say people gaining and losing fat. They may not actually be losing fat but as there muscle grow there % muscle goes up and so % of fat goes down.


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## icamero1 (Jul 3, 2009)

to loose fat you have to eat below your calorie maintenance level, so how can you build muscle whilst in calorie deficit?


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## IronMaiden (Mar 31, 2010)

icamero1 said:


> to loose fat you have to eat below your calorie maintenance level, so how can you build muscle whilst in calorie deficit?


Exactly ...


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

It's about energy balance. Say you need exactly 2500kcals per day to maintain the same body weight (BMR + kcals for activity + thermic effect of food), if you add say 250kcals to your intake then your body will gain 250kcals of stored chemical energy per day, so long as you don't at the same time do anything to affect your maintenance calorie requirements like change how active you are.

The thing is though that those additional stored 250kcals will be stored over a range of different tissues - subcutaneous fat, visceral fat, intramuscular fat, glycogen stores, as muscle tissue, even organ tissues... a person in a 250kcal excess who doesn't train for example will likely gain most of that as fat in various deposits, whereas someone training would gain a higher percentage of muscle and a lower amount of fat.

Likewise, in the opposite situation - in a 250kcal deficit, 250kcals of stored energy is lost from the body per day, and this 250kcals of stored chemical energy will also come from a varying combination of all the tissue types mentioned above... and in some situations of -250kcal (or whatever the number is) it is indeed possible to say lose 300kcals a day from fat and glycogen stores combined, but at the same time to gain 50kcals worth of muscle tissue to balance it out as a net 250kcal loss.

You never gain muscle most efficiently at all in a calorie deficit, and the more muscle you already have and the leaner you already are the harder it becomes and is also a lot harder the greater the amount of calorie deficit, but if you aren't too lean, are in a very slight or moderate kcal deficit with the right diet and have a decent anabolic stimulus from training then yes you can gain a little muscle and lose fat at the same time.

The above phenomenon is most common to overweight individuals with a high fat mass and low muscle mass when they first stake up weight training - if their kcals are controlled then it's common in the first six months or so to fairly continuously lose fat and total body weight but gain a decent amount of muscle.


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## Megafreak (Nov 9, 2012)

I carb cycle and it seems to work for me


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## andyhuggins (Nov 21, 2008)

People may also look bigger as they shed the bodyfat and some defonition stsrts to show.


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## tonyc74 (Sep 2, 2009)

its all about carb cycling and making sure you control insulin response around your training

carbs eaten that are excess to energy requirements will go to fat...so will fat mind you but less likley to spike insulin

eat mainly fats and proteins on non workout days carbs around workouts and some low intensity cardio first thing in the morning would be the most likley choice to burn into fat reserves


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## simonthepieman (Jun 11, 2012)

IronMaiden said:


> The general rule being u need more calories to build muscle and less calories to lose...
> 
> So how do so many people in the gym keep growing and growing but are losing fat at the same time. It's obviously not that simple?
> 
> I'm talking natural here.


Because it's a general rule.

You can't do each one 50/50 or allocate it proportionally.

Whilst in a deficit, it's extremely hard to build any muscle at all once get past the beginner stage. It's just biomechanics. However mixing a lower BF level with a pump can make the appearance of being bigger.

When in a mild surplus, it's possible to do both. But it's more a case of fat loss as welcome side effect whilst building muscle. It's a hard thing to plan purposely and there are so many factors in play that even if someone explains what they did to achieve it. Chances are it's guesswork. Lifting increases fat oxidisation. So there is no reason why it can't happen, but if you 'try' to plan it as a dual goal, chances are you can end up spinning your wheels.

Most of have tried it, against better advice then learned to get bigger and cuttings easiers. Notice all the big experienced guys all say the same thing, be patient, try and get consistent leanish gains and don't worry about a little fat gain. Listen to them. They are big and lean for a reason


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## andyhuggins (Nov 21, 2008)

Its all about getting the balance right and monitoring it.


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

simonthepieman said:


> Because it's a general rule.
> 
> You can do each one 50/50 or allocate it proportionally.
> 
> ...


There are some studies that show fat loss and muscle gain in an energy deficit, and I believe one of those studies uses long term training policemen - the studies demonstrate I think (I might just be inferring it) that a high protein intake plus muscle building stimulus make it more possible, but I agree it is probably more efficient and certainly far less fussy to simply focus on one goal at a time.

Best thing is to keep it simple IMO.


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## GShock (May 1, 2011)

Maybe because of reading on here and other forums I see fat burners as a way of dropping a lot of fat quickly (DNP) I'm trying to cut and see DNP and then like as a backup plan if I can't diet the fat off,

Could the guys in the gym be running low test and DNP to drop fat??


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## IronMaiden (Mar 31, 2010)

Can fat stores be used as stored energy to build some muscle if in a deficit?


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## simonthepieman (Jun 11, 2012)

IronMaiden said:


> Can fat stores be used as stored energy to build some muscle if in a deficit?


in theory there is a complex way of saying yes, but the easiest way to describe the most realistic outcome is

"don't count on it"


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## IronMaiden (Mar 31, 2010)

There is so much science behind everything, so many studies but nothing is clear at all, still murky. There are general rules about being in a deficit and surplus but not much more than that to gain or lose weight... To build muscle and lose fat seems impossible naturally..

Everyone I know that are big and ripped are bang on the gear. Anyone natural I know looks ok but nothing compared to them. The drastic changes I see there body go through is crazy. I guess being natural u just have to pick one. Grow or cut...


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## DazUKM (Nov 22, 2012)

Nice thread


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## Megafreak (Nov 9, 2012)

It's horrible like, I am tempted every few months to hit up a course just to see how I'd react/change but I don't know. Do any of you as nattys find that your body composition seems to change massively day to day?


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## andyhuggins (Nov 21, 2008)

Yeah your body can change daily depending on your food and fluid intake.


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## Megafreak (Nov 9, 2012)

andyhuggins said:


> Yeah your body can change daily depending on your food and fluid intake.


Ah explains it then cheers for that mate


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

Megafreak said:


> It's horrible like, I am tempted every few months to hit up a course just to see how I'd react/change but I don't know. Do any of you as nattys find that your body composition seems to change massively day to day?


Is your diet fairly consistent or does it vary a fair bit daily in macros and/or calories? Varying the amount of dietary fiber and carb content can lead to daily fluctuations of a few lbs, and can seem even more if you don't always weigh yourself at the same time of day on an empty stomach.

One thing I've found over the years is that when I'm following a fairly tight number of kcals, carbs are always from the same sources and in similar amounts, and I'm drinking the same volume of fluids each day my day-to-day weight is fairly stable.


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## Megafreak (Nov 9, 2012)

dtlv said:


> Is your diet fairly consistent or does it vary a fair bit daily in macros and/or calories? Varying the amount of dietary fiber and carb content can lead to daily fluctuations of a few lbs, and can seem even more if you don't always weigh yourself at the same time of day on an empty stomach.
> 
> One thing I've found over the years is that when I'm following a fairly tight number of kcals, carbs are always from the same sources and in similar amounts, and I'm drinking the same volume of fluids each day my day-to-day weight is fairly stable.


Carb cycling at the mo mate, 5 low, medium then high so Monday to Friday the calories stay pretty solid tbh, I think a lot of it might be in my head tbh but not certain lol


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