# Is anything ''good'' for your back?



## CoffeeFiend (Aug 31, 2010)

Sooo I've been reading a lot of articles recently and it seems to me a lot of things get slated for damaging your back in particular..

Sit-ups fvck up your lumbar lower back - Evidence conclusive its a fact.. Yet every military in the world still does them?

Good mornings - Apparently fvck up lumbar lower back too, opinions on this? Im actually wondering because its the same contraction as a sit-up just done on a standing position kinda thing..

Leg raises - Read unless you do them past 90 degrees their only doing your hip flexors damage and not doing anything for your abs.. lots of evidence say their very bad for your hips and they arch your lower back which is severely damaging..

Also read reverse crunches are bad and worse than normal crunches because of the pressure on the hips.. but personally dont think theres anything wrong with them..


----------



## switch (Jan 5, 2011)

Squats are great for the back


----------



## Fatstuff (Mar 2, 2010)

deadlifts


----------



## Mingster (Mar 25, 2011)

My chiropractor's been good for mine.


----------



## Tommy10 (Feb 17, 2009)

hot stone massage....or a geisha girl walking over it.....its worth a go ? :laugh:


----------



## Guest (Apr 19, 2011)

military sit-ups are really really bad that is correct, i hate military fitness. no need to go all the way up,crunches are fine!


----------



## CoffeeFiend (Aug 31, 2010)

milmaz89 said:


> military sit-ups are really really bad that is correct, i hate military fitness. no need to go all the way up,crunches are fine!


The evidence for military sit-ups seriously fvcking up your lower spine is 100% conclusive now tbh theres so much evidence that proves it.. I just dont get why soliders still do them, its not even just ours, every single military in the world does them even though they know their screwing up their soliders backs.. Just confuses the hell out of me


----------



## CoffeeFiend (Aug 31, 2010)

P.S I've put this in 'form and technqiue' because it could be argued a lot of these are down to incorrect form fvcking up your back and such although its debatable which is why i started the thread lol, anyways please dont delete!


----------



## Guest (Apr 19, 2011)

I think if your form is good and not going to heavy you will be ok . Footballers are still doing full sit ups. If you have strong cove your more and half way there


----------



## Guest (Apr 19, 2011)

CoffeeFiend said:


> The evidence for military sit-ups seriously fvcking up your lower spine is 100% conclusive now tbh theres so much evidence that proves it.. I just dont get why soliders still do them, its not even just ours, every single military in the world does them even though they know their screwing up their soliders backs.. Just confuses the hell out of me


military fitness in general is all wrong,theres no specifics,just beastings! and they wonder why there is so many injuries with lumbar pack pain being pretty high!

i take the sick/injured for spinning classes if theres no ptis,and its much better as im not a military pti so im not into thrashings,i aim for fat burning or endurance.

the military rehab programmes however are brilliant...so no it confuses me too!


----------



## Ak_88 (Nov 9, 2008)

The reason for situps being **** is because you're working into spinal flexion, and when you start to load it (i.e add extra resistance) you load the spine in a position where the discs are put under more pressure, less than ideal. 'Traditional' crunch training of the rectus abdominus will just shorten them and pull you into a kyphotic posture due to the attachment onto your ribcage.

Reverse crunches are well summed up by eric cressey here (he's practically a god on all things corrective exercise);



> "Q: I noticed that you include reverse crunches in Maximum Strength, but not standard crunches. Why is it acceptable to have lumbar flexion during a reverse crunch, but not during a standard crunch?
> 
> A: This is a great question - and there are a few components to my response.
> 
> ...


Good Morning's shouldn't be bad for your back if you do them correctly as the movement should come purely from your hips with a fixed lumbar spine. If you're bending at the lumbar spine, you aren't doing them right.

You're right with leg raises though, it's largely a hip flexion movement and probably a waste of time for effect ab training.

Static ab movements (dead bugs, bird-dogs etc) FTW.


----------



## Fatstuff (Mar 2, 2010)

CoffeeFiend said:


> The evidence for military sit-ups seriously fvcking up your lower spine is 100% conclusive now tbh theres so much evidence that proves it.. I just dont get why soliders still do them, its not even just ours, every single military in the world does them even though they know their screwing up their soliders backs.. Just confuses the hell out of me


because all militaries are stubborn and they dont care about collateral damage


----------



## MarkFranco (Aug 26, 2010)

Havent read any of the replies but the reason the army does lots of sit ups, push ups and pulls to infinity and billions of miles of running is because its free.

Its not the best way to train an individual, but its free, can be done any where, works to an extent... and every one can do it...

Its also free


----------



## CoffeeFiend (Aug 31, 2010)

MarkFranco said:


> Havent read any of the replies but the reason the army does lots of sit ups, push ups and pulls to infinity and billions of miles of running is because its free.
> 
> Its not the best way to train an individual, but its free, can be done any where, works to an extent... and every one can do it...
> 
> Its also free


I agree this is a major factor in why they ignore the obvious evidence for it hurting people.. *sigh*


----------



## MarkFranco (Aug 26, 2010)

I think its got to be the reason why, think about it, Its the easiest way to get lots people to train at once in cadence. Another reason is cost. It is just not cost effective to have state of the art gyms and instructors to train that many people.


----------



## MarkFranco (Aug 26, 2010)

Saying that though, the army (or is it the navy? or both?) does have powerlifting comps and also boxing, judo and muay thai/kick boxing


----------



## Tommy10 (Feb 17, 2009)

ive had back surgery twice- 2 discs out.....the best exercise for back conditions is swimming.....in the gym the only set i had to drop was squats.....i eased maself back in to all my normal back exercises, but every now and then i cool it with the deads...i do abs at the end of every sessin.....kneeling roe pl downs, deep bnch declines, leg raises....my backs fine wih them.


----------



## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

CoffeeFiend said:


> Sooo I've been reading a lot of articles recently and it seems to me a lot of things get slated for damaging your back in particular..
> 
> Sit-ups fvck up your lumbar lower back - Evidence conclusive its a fact.. Yet every military in the world still does them?
> 
> ...


These things are only paticulary risky IMO if you don't also perform exercises for the opposing muscles and so gradually allow yourself to build a strength imbalance that throws out posture and puts stress on certain muscles.

It could be said bench presses are very risky to your shoulders - and they would be if you didn't ever train your back too, as without also gaining strength in your back, the shoulders get pulled forward by the strength imbalance, posture gets worse, and the rotator cuffs get stretched to a more injury sensitive position.


----------



## CoffeeFiend (Aug 31, 2010)

Dtlv74 said:


> These things are only paticulary risky IMO if you don't also perform exercises for the opposing muscles and so gradually allow yourself to build a strength imbalance that throws out posture and puts stress on certain muscles.
> 
> It could be said bench presses are very risky to your shoulders - and they would be if you didn't ever train your back too, as without also gaining strength in your back, the shoulders get pulled forward by the strength imbalance, posture gets worse, and the rotator cuffs get stretched to a more injury sensitive position.


So your saying opposing muscles need to develop more or less in unison? Perhaps my 'front' core is very strong and my 'back' core is too weak and the imbalance causes pain. When i do reverse crunches and leg raises i feel it in my back more than my abs and i usually end up stopping when my backs had enough not when my abs have had enough..


----------



## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

CoffeeFiend said:


> *So your saying opposing muscles need to develop more or less in unison?* Perhaps my 'front' core is very strong and my 'back' core is too weak and the imbalance causes pain. When i do reverse crunches and leg raises i feel it in my back more than my abs and i usually end up stopping when my backs had enough not when my abs have had enough..


Definitely. Will try and dig out some articles on this topic tomorrow, but I think a lot of injuries and postural problems stem from strength and flexibility imbalances between opposing muscles.


----------



## CoffeeFiend (Aug 31, 2010)

Dtlv74 said:


> Definitely. Will try and dig out some articles on this topic tomorrow, but I think a lot of injuries and postural problems stem from strength and flexibility imbalances between opposing muscles.


That would be awesome bro much appreciated, wont let me rep you again today  core training is something I really suck at tbh.. To many things seem to cripple your back just confuses the fvck out of me, I actually love sit-ups but dont do them anymore out of 'fear'


----------



## Ak_88 (Nov 9, 2008)

Dtlv74 said:


> Definitely. Will try and dig out some articles on this topic tomorrow, but I think a lot of injuries and postural problems stem from strength and flexibility imbalances between opposing muscles.


Certainly go with that from a non-BB'ing perspective too, a lot of low-back pain is due to people having next to no core control.


----------



## Dirk McQuickly (Dec 29, 2010)

Dtlv74 said:


> Definitely. Will try and dig out some articles on this topic tomorrow, but I think a lot of injuries and postural problems stem from strength and flexibility imbalances between opposing muscles.


I'll be looking out for this!


----------



## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

Couldn't find the article I want but a couple of interesting links anyway -

http://www.coreperformance.com/knowledge/training/muscle-imbalance.html

http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/sports_body_training_performance_repair/a_jointbyjoint_approach_to_training

http://www.bodychek.co.uk/resources/backpaincauses.htm


----------



## Wardy211436114751 (Jan 24, 2011)

Interesting articles I always hear how important it is to not have muscluar imbalance. I for one seem to always have a dodgy lower back when sitting down but I hardly ever train abs(but keep them tight during all other exercises really-and almost have 6 pack showing) and my lower back would be stronger than my stomach so its abit strange.


----------



## martin brown (Dec 31, 2008)

A couple of things spring to mind:

There is no such thing as opposite muscles! No two muscles do the opposite - all work together. The "abs" muscle and the "lower back" muscle does not determine back problems or your risk of developing them. There is a bit more to it than that 

The main part of keeping a healthy spine and reduce injury risk is to keep the back strong and stable. The lumbar spine needs to strong enough to *resist* flexion and hyperextension. Not necessarily be strong at both.

The core is made of several muscles, most of which are designed to keep the spine still whilst the hips move. This is highly important to back health. Lack of hip mobility will cause the lumbar spine to move more than it should and put it at high injury risk. The lower back isn't designed to move, especially under load. This is why so many exercises are classed as dangerous to the lumbar spine - most that involve lumbar flexion (especially weighted) exceed the guidelines for pressure on the spine, including as mentioned sit ups.

Things like good mornings don't require lumbar flexion, only lumbar stability and good hip control and hip mobility.

Most exercises that are good for the core require hip control and the ability to keep a neutral spine. Two things that most people lack - and do not learn - until it's too late. Thank the influx of gym machines in the 1980's for that one!


----------



## Wardy211436114751 (Jan 24, 2011)

I think I will start doing some core workouts/movements for added stability etc. Like few weeks ago in the gym I was deadlifting and only on a relatively light day and some PT came up to me and said I should keep my back straight when doing deadlifts. I said well you cant keep your back completely straight surely he said well yeah you can unless you wanna end up in hospital...I guess lifting heavy weight and staying in correct posture is just not possible sometimes?


----------



## Dirk McQuickly (Dec 29, 2010)

martin brown said:


> A couple of things spring to mind:
> 
> There is no such thing as opposite muscles! No two muscles do the opposite - all work together. The "abs" muscle and the "lower back" muscle does not determine back problems or your risk of developing them. There is a bit more to it than that
> 
> ...


Taking all this into account Martin, are the squat and the deadlift the best exercises for keeping the core and lower back strong? I'm steering clear of deads at the moment 'cos I've got a dodgy back and it seems to be on a hair trigger at the moment, and am looking for a way to improve my core strength (I've posted something similar before, so sorry if I'm hijacking/boring).


----------



## MRSTRONG (Apr 18, 2009)

my ten pence is the smaller core exercises that i do help to benefit my bigger power lifts also they keep my spine supported through its range of motion , i think just squats or some movement where by direct weight is applied on one axis is not enough so incorporating controlled strict form exercises to build the muscles in different multiple movement planes . i learnt from slipping a disc to not neglect the silly looking exercises .


----------



## martin brown (Dec 31, 2008)

chilli said:


> Taking all this into account Martin, are the squat and the deadlift the best exercises for keeping the core and lower back strong? I'm steering clear of deads at the moment 'cos I've got a dodgy back and it seems to be on a hair trigger at the moment, and am looking for a way to improve my core strength (I've posted something similar before, so sorry if I'm hijacking/boring).


Well squat and deadlift are two of the best exercises to maintain a strong core - but not always the best exercises to strengthen the core.

It depends what is going wrong and where your weakness is. If you cant keep a neutral spine squatting then it's not a great idea to squat until you fix the problems first. Same with the deadlift.

As above, the silly exercises like planks are the ones that will make most difference if you have problems already. Sometimes (in my case last year) a strong core can still go wrong if the smaller supporting muscles don't work properly under heavy weights. Obviously lifting heavy cant fix this. So sometimes the best course of action is rehab to make sure everything is working, rehab to strengthen weak links, and rehab to mobilise tight areas that are restricting movement which in turn has a knock on effect mnaking somewhere else move too much.

On the Rise - ideally a neutral spine should be kept through squats and deads yes. Things like 1RM attempts are always going to put you under alot of pressure to flex the spine but you must at least try to maintain it. There is always going to be a small injury risk no matter what, and tbh most back problems are due to prolonged movement pattern failure rather than a squat or deadlift.


----------



## MRSTRONG (Apr 18, 2009)

i think thats a great post martin .


----------



## Dirk McQuickly (Dec 29, 2010)

martin brown said:


> Well squat and deadlift are two of the best exercises to maintain a strong core - but not always the best exercises to strengthen the core.
> 
> It depends what is going wrong and where your weakness is. If you cant keep a neutral spine squatting then it's not a great idea to squat until you fix the problems first. Same with the deadlift.
> 
> ...


when you say rehab Martin would that be physio?


----------



## martin brown (Dec 31, 2008)

uhan said:


> i think thats a great post martin .


Thanks 

I have been doing more and more back rehab work with clients over the last year or two and after I injured my back it's an area I can't ever know enough about.

I love lifting and boy do I hate not being able to lift!



chilli said:


> when you say rehab Martin would that be physio?


Well not necessarily - rehab is just a term for exercises to help with your problem. Yes a physio can help you with this but there is quite a bit you can do alone too.


----------



## Dirk McQuickly (Dec 29, 2010)

Thanks Martin. Reps!


----------



## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

martin brown said:


> On the Rise - ideally a neutral spine should be kept through squats and deads yes. Things like 1RM attempts are always going to put you under alot of pressure to flex the spine but you must at least try to maintain it. There is always going to be a small injury risk no matter what, and tbh most back problems are due to prolonged movement pattern failure rather than a squat or deadlift.


In respect of keeping the spine neutral, what do you think of exercises like SLDLs that encourage rounding of the back?


----------



## Ak_88 (Nov 9, 2008)

Anything that involves loading the spine during flexion should be avoided IMO. RDL's would be a far better alternative.

As Martin said, the spine shouldn't move during lifts, only the hips. If the spine moves to compensate, the hips aren't mobile/strong enough in conjunction with insufficient core strength to stabilise the spine.


----------



## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

Ak_88 said:


> Anything that involves loading the spine during flexion should be avoided IMO. RDL's would be a far better alternative.
> 
> As Martin said, the spine shouldn't move during lifts, only the hips. If the spine moves to compensate, the hips aren't mobile/strong enough in conjunction with insufficient core strength to stabilise the spine.


Glad you said that as I always go for RDLs over SLDLs... not only safer, but IMO a more effective posterior chain exercise.


----------



## Dirk McQuickly (Dec 29, 2010)

Dtlv74 said:


> In respect of keeping the spine neutral, what do you think of exercises like SLDLs that encourage rounding of the back?


It was sldl's that did me in. to be fair, I've never had any problems with regular deads, but my confidence has gone with them now.


----------



## brianwardle (Apr 11, 2011)

Nothing in the gym is good for you. if im being honest. especially if your training as hard as you should be. there will always be compensations and breakdown in twechnique which will lead to a potential injury. But thats what its all about.


----------



## tombsc (May 29, 2008)

Can anyone recommend some good hip mobility/strengthening exercises? Thanks


----------



## brianwardle (Apr 11, 2011)

Foam roll the following- IT band/quads/adductors. Static stretch hip flexors. Glute bridges, hip rotations, hip circles, bodyweight squat, reverse lunge with arms above head. Static calf stretch. That should keep u going ;-))


----------



## tombsc (May 29, 2008)

Thanks. I'll look them all up and rep you when I'm not on my phone


----------



## Dirk McQuickly (Dec 29, 2010)

brianwardle said:


> Nothing in the gym is good for you. if im being honest. especially if your training as hard as you should be. there will always be compensations and breakdown in twechnique which will lead to a potential injury. But thats what its all about.


I'm sorry. A breakdown in form that leaves you on crutches for a week (which is what happened to me last time I injured my back) isn't what it's all about. You should lift as heavy weights as you can with correct form.


----------



## Bish83 (Nov 18, 2009)

The military situps are more for hips also theres very little in the way of pulling exercises in the military, I think its only marines that do pullups for example.

The good mornings depend on your flexibility, same with deadlifts and squats. Just my opinion but more people may injure themselves doing a good morning since it doesnt look as difficult as the big compound exercises such as the deadlift.


----------



## Glassback (Jun 18, 2010)

I went through both the Army Infantry training and the Royal Marines Commando training and although it was pretty brutal they have a good method to strengthening you throughout training. I agree plenty of people leave with injuries but thats the nature of the role you signed for.

That said alot of weight is piled on and alot is expected from one and I dont think the repocusions faced by that individual in later life are even a feint thought in the minds of the instructors. Thats very sad.

The only thing I found bad for my back was falling off a cliff. Other than that it loved exercise.

Repairing the thing was a 6 year job and I would rather swallow razor blades than revisit that. If I had to sum my post up with 2 suggestions it would be this.

Stretching - Is Massively overlooked. Stretch everything especially the legs (hamstrings) as this removes strain from the lower back (where most pains and aches start and are caused).

Swimming - The BEST exercise for rehab or general strength conditioning with no impact on joints like running etc.


----------



## NovemberDelta (Apr 17, 2011)

MarkFranco said:


> Saying that though, the army (or is it the navy? or both?) does have powerlifting comps and also boxing, judo and muay thai/kick boxing


All 3 services have PL competitions, it's pretty big in the navy though particularly beacuse of the marine element. Having said that it can be difficult to train to a specific goal in the military because of the nature of deploying and not knowing where you are going to be/what you will be doing in a week or 2 weeks time!

As you say all that stuff is free and easy to administer that's why they do it.


----------

