# BLOOD RESULTS 4 MONTHS AFTER PCT ____TRT____?



## benki11 (Sep 17, 2010)

first taken 3 months after pct (tren test 14 Week-PCT Clomid ,Nolva)

23/10/2012

Total testesterone 7.0 nmol/l range 9.9-27.8

fsh 2.5iu/l range 1.5-12.4

lh 1.9iu/l range 1.7-8.6

free t4 16.1 range pmol/l 10.5-22.0

tsh 5.88 mlu/l 0.27-4.20

second one taken 4 months after pct

30/11/2012

Total testesterone 7.7 nmol/l range 9.9-27.8

fsh 3.6 iu/l range 1.5-12.4

lh 2.7 iu/l range 1.7-8.6

free t4 18.3 range pmol/l 10.5-22.0

tsh 4.14 mlu/l 0.27-4.20

so lads what you think will i ever recover i know it does t look promising but if you compare to tests i think there is very little improvement ????

what ye thinik would like to here Hackskiii opinion if possible ?

TRT for life???? (i hope not)


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## KRIS_B (Apr 17, 2011)

Apparently it has be proven that it takes 6. Months minimum before levels begin to come back to normal also did you not run HCG in your pct?


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## gaz_0001 (Jul 6, 2010)

Had a very similar case to yours. Its the tren that causes such a long recovery.

Progesterone levels were really high after tren which somehow caused me to stay shut down.

I was having bloods every two weeks, when we done the full panel and seen the progesterone over double the range, i started on caber. The levels went down over the course of 4 weeks, once progesterone came back into range, the other values started rising.

As you can tell, im not really clued up on it, but all i know is that when i brought the progesterone down the test went back up to normal.


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## Dezw (May 13, 2009)

Did you not use hcg during cycle?


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## Pictor (Jan 10, 2011)

I'd personally do the power pct (sticky) and see where you are in afew more months!

Wouldn't write yourself off just yet mate!


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## Pictor (Jan 10, 2011)

As mentioned, didn't you run hCG on cycle?!


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## benki11 (Sep 17, 2010)

Dezw said:


> Did you not use hcg during cycle?


Unfortinetly not


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## Hotdog147 (Oct 15, 2011)

Your testes are clearly functioning so I don't think a power PCT will help, HCG not required here I think, LH and FSH have improved a bit

Maybe some clomid and maybe nolva would help here, bump up LH and FSH

I'll tag @hackskii He'll be able to assess better

Also mate, it's a bit early still to be thinking TRT here, 4 months post PCT


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## Dead lee (Jul 4, 2010)

gaz_0001 said:


> Had a very similar case to yours. Its the tren that causes such a long recovery.
> 
> Progesterone levels were really high after tren which somehow caused me to stay shut down.
> 
> ...


Hi mate how much caber did you run to bring progesterone back down?

When you say 'we' do you mean your doctor?


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## benki11 (Sep 17, 2010)

Hotdog147 said:


> Your testes are clearly functioning so I don't think a power PCT will help, HCG not required here I think, LH and FSH have improved a bit
> 
> Maybe some clomid and maybe nolva would help here, bump up LH and FSH
> 
> I'll tag @hackskii He'll be able to assess better


I Was hoping Hackskiii Would replay ,Hoppfuly he ll jump in,he always helps anyways!!!


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## Kamwe kuacha (Jun 19, 2011)

Yet another "low test post PCT"... And what do they all have in common?? They didn't run HCG on cycle.....


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## benki11 (Sep 17, 2010)

ShaunH101 said:


> Yet another "low test post PCT"... And what do they all have in common?? They didn't run HCG on cycle.....


Well yes but my testicals working according to bloods,or.....


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## IGotTekkers (Jun 6, 2012)

gaz_0001 said:


> Had a very similar case to yours. Its the tren that causes such a long recovery.
> 
> Progesterone levels were really high after tren which somehow caused me to stay shut down.
> 
> ...


where do you get bloods done mate every 2 week's? if I went to my doctor every 2 week's asking for blood tests to check my self medicated hormone abuse he would tell me to **** off lol.


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## gaz_0001 (Jul 6, 2010)

When i knackered myself up i ran tren e & a for 10 maybe 12 weeks.

Ran HCG at 1000iu throughout. To be honest, once my balls shrunk, hcg at 1000iu never actually done anything in terms of size.

I had the bloods done by a researcher at the exchange (Which is in a hospital).


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## Kamwe kuacha (Jun 19, 2011)

benki11 said:


> Well yes but my testicals working according to bloods,or.....


I didn't say they weren't working... But I bet they would be working a lot better if you used HCG...


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## TomTom1 (Feb 1, 2007)

Did you start PCT 2 weeks after last jab?

Personally I dont agree with this. This is the way I previously ran it until I finished a cycle the week before I went travelling for 3 months (no hcg during cycle)

Whilst away I had no access to PCT drugs so just let my body do its thing. I didn't train and ate what I wanted. I found that up until the 10 week mark my body held a good amount of size, morning wood was there and libido was high. After this it very slowly started to slip. A few weeks after I got home libido was getting low and no morning wood. I ran a full PCT and back to normal.

Obviously I have no blood work to prove it, but I would suggest running a standard PCT now, nothing too aggressive. (ROHM pct caps and a bit of hcg should do the trick) and see how you get on from there.


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## benki11 (Sep 17, 2010)

TomTom1 said:


> Did you start PCT 2 weeks after last jab?
> 
> Personally I dont agree with this. This is the way I previously ran it until I finished a cycle the week before I went travelling for 3 months (no hcg during cycle)
> 
> ...


Well I started 2.5 weeks from pct and run 6 week pct ,4 weeks nolva 20 mg , 6 weeks clomid 100/50 mg


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

ok, lets just look at this logically:

23/10/2012

Total *testesterone 7.0* nmol/l range 9.9-27.8

*fsh 2.5*iu/l range 1.5-12.4

*lh 1.9*iu/l range 1.7-8.6

30/11/2012

Total *testesterone 7.7* nmol/l range 9.9-27.8

*fsh 3.6* iu/l range 1.5-12.4

*lh 2.7* iu/l range 1.7-8.6

I put them in color to make it easy to see what is going on.

First test LH was just within range, second test, LH is moved a pretty good amount.

FSH as well moved pretty good.

But your testosterone levels did not move in relation to the gonadotropins.

Why is this?

This is because the testicles being pretty much atrophied do not have enough stimulation to force them to go back to work.

At this rate the gonadotropins will keep moving up till the leydig cells start to be fully functional.

I don't think that SERMS alone are going to do the job, and yes the gonadotropins will rise pretty significant with SERMS but not enough to return atrophy any time soon.

I would do another PCT using HCG, clomid, and nolva.

Once the testicles get the big dose of HCG, they will have no choice but to respond.

They are just not responding now because of testicular atrophy.

Now the dose would be a bit of guesswork here, but you probably could do the Power PCT but overall dose of 20,000 probably wont be needed.

I would probably suggest at least 15000iu would be enough.

But if you want to recover for sure.

2500iu HCG EOD X 8

Clomid at 100mg ED for 30 days

Nolca @ 20mg ED for 45 days

5000iu vitamin D

1 cod liver

ZMA at night before bed.

Now you can varify your progress by after 2 weeks get some blood work done and your Testosterone should be about in the middle of range or base levels, if this is so, drop the HCG, and continue with the SERMS and within a few weeks 100%

If not then continue with the HCG till your numbers return to normal, then drop the HCG and continue with the SERMS.

But, I doubt that will be the case.

Do not worry, this is so common that there is no doubt in my mind you will recover.

Try and relax, just a small hiccup, you should recover as your numbers are all moving in the right direction.


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## cudsyaj (Jul 5, 2011)

I've done Haksii power PCT and was pretty normal a couple months later after 12 weeks of Tren at 350mg pw...

It works but I should have got bloods done to prove it.


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## benki11 (Sep 17, 2010)

hackskii said:


> ok, lets just look at this logically:
> 
> 23/10/2012
> 
> ...


This is together Hcg eod with Clomid and Nolva or hcg first then .........


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

All together.

Rational behind it is nolva will protect the leydig cells and estrogenic sides from the HCG.

Not much is known, nor could be proven if clomid could stimulate the pituitary with the use of HCG.

I guess it may be possible but that is the protocol anyway.


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## benki11 (Sep 17, 2010)

I have anxiety ,most of my life could that have something to do with slow test recovery ?


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## nlr (Oct 18, 2009)

benki11 said:


> I have anxiety ,most of my life could that have something to do with slow test recovery ?


has it got worse after using steroids?


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## benki11 (Sep 17, 2010)

nlr said:


> has it got worse after using steroids?


No same all


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## benki11 (Sep 17, 2010)

hackskii said:


> All together.
> 
> Rational behind it is nolva will protect the leydig cells and estrogenic sides from the HCG.
> 
> ...


So i been 4 months off and still not recovered and if i do extra pct with hcg that wil take another 6 weeks and after that i have to wait another 2-3 months so when can i do next cycle if i wnna to???

Woud it be much difference if i go on another cycle right now with hcg all the way and then do pct ??

Or that way i ll be even worst shot?

Thanks


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## Fat (Jan 2, 2010)

benki11 said:


> So i been 4 months off and still not recovered and if i do extra pct with hcg that wil take another 6 weeks and after that i have to wait another 2-3 months so when can i do next cycle if i wnna to???
> 
> Woud it be much difference if i go on another cycle right now with hcg all the way and then do pct ??
> 
> ...


Why on earth are you thinking of going on again? Give your hormones a break


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## benki11 (Sep 17, 2010)

Fat said:


> Why on earth are you thinking of going on again? Give your hormones a break


I am not,just thinking loudly what if I do extra pct with hcg that will be another half of year of!And would hcg help while doing

Cycle to keep your testes working or not?


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

benki11 said:


> I have anxiety ,most of my life could that have something to do with slow test recovery ?





benki11 said:


> So i been 4 months off and still not recovered and if i do extra pct with hcg that wil take another 6 weeks and after that i have to wait another 2-3 months so when can i do next cycle if i wnna to???
> 
> Woud it be much difference if i go on another cycle right now with hcg all the way and then do pct ??
> 
> ...


Well, I would think being back to normal first would allow you to have a better chance to keep recovery next cycle using HCG.


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## ItsaSecret (May 28, 2012)

benki11 said:


> I am not,just thinking loudly what if I do extra pct with hcg that will be another half of year of!And would hcg help while doing
> 
> Cycle to keep your testes working or not?


u should just listen to hackskii mate, he knows his sht and has helped/guided countless amounts of people, including myself.


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## bossdog (Aug 25, 2011)

I sure Ive never mentioned a member on this board before but hackskii you the man lol, I never managed to finish a course due to injury but hope you around for advice when I do as recovery is one of my fears,

Top man


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## benki11 (Sep 17, 2010)

I will start on Monday with another PCT Hackskiii protocol , I hope I'll recover


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## Slight of hand (Sep 30, 2008)

Without sounding too reptative, for what it's worth i would never do another cycle without a 2 week hcg blast wee 4/5


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## Slight of hand (Sep 30, 2008)

benki11 said:


> I will start on Monday with another PCT Hackskiii protocol , I hope I'll recover


I usually post more often on UGM but I frequently point people in the direction og Hackskii's threads.....it's good and proven advice, backed up by evidential bloodwork in most cases, this was also the case for me after follwoing his protocol the the letter.

I still say HCG should have it's own sticky on every forum.


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## benki11 (Sep 17, 2010)

Update 2nd day on 2nd pct, hcg 2500 iu (8 jobs eod),100 clomid, 20 nolva (30 days),first morning had wood all night long but could be side effect of Viaga

Will see tonight!

Ps

I ll keep you updated and after pct will do bloods again and post it in this thread


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## reza85 (Jan 11, 2009)

So if you do recover would you do gear again ?


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## benki11 (Sep 17, 2010)

reza85 said:


> So if you do recover would you do gear again ?


If I woud reconsider ,but will see if

I kind of think that pct does t work and people after serious cycle could never fully recover

But I hope I am proved wrong!!


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

benki11 said:


> If I woud reconsider ,but will see if
> 
> I kind of think that pct does t work and people after serious cycle could never fully recover
> 
> But I hope I am proved wrong!!


Well, when reading up on HCG for boys that do not drop their balls, the doses, and length of time actually are quite a bit.

It more than likely has to do with testicular stimulation for recovery, than anything else.


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## benki11 (Sep 17, 2010)

hackskii said:


> Well, when reading up on HCG for boys that do not drop their balls, the doses, and length of time actually are quite a bit.
> 
> It more than likely has to do with testicular stimulation for recovery, than anything else.


Hacskiii THANK YOU for your patience with such inpatient person as myself,and THANK YOU very much for explaining things over and over for me many times,

And THANK YOU for this protocol on recovery and if i recover well then i dont now ;I owe you a lot!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Cheers M8


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## gear3d (Nov 23, 2012)

You gonna keep updating this mate? Want to see how this plays out


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## Madoxx (Nov 7, 2010)

How much did the bloodwork cost?


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## benki11 (Sep 17, 2010)

gear3d said:


> You gonna keep updating this mate? Want to see how this plays out


yep i will

just done second hcg injection ,6 to go......


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## benki11 (Sep 17, 2010)

madocks said:


> How much did the bloodwork cost?


it did t cost me anythingi have an GP visit card!


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## PHMG (Jun 15, 2010)

guys. little imput from me.

ive run 100mg proviron each day for the past 2 weeks and 500iu 3 times over the past week. my balls have nearly doubled in size.

food for thought.


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## Hotdog147 (Oct 15, 2011)

PowerHouseMcGru said:


> guys. little imput from me.
> 
> ive run 100mg proviron each day for the past 2 weeks and 500iu 3 times over the past week. my balls have nearly doubled in size.
> 
> food for thought.


Why you running prov mate? Fertility?


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## Jay Walker (Jun 24, 2003)

PowerHouseMcGru said:


> guys. little imput from me.
> 
> ive run 100mg proviron each day for the past 2 weeks and 500iu 3 times over the past week. my balls have nearly doubled in size.
> 
> food for thought.


Pictures, or it never happened.  lol


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## PHMG (Jun 15, 2010)

Jay Walker said:


> Pictures, or it never happened.  lol


check your inbox.... :lol:


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## benki11 (Sep 17, 2010)

Hotdog147 said:


> Why you running prov mate? Fertility?


x2


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## benki11 (Sep 17, 2010)

PowerHouseMcGru said:


> check your inbox.... :lol:


no you did t:whistling:


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## Jay Walker (Jun 24, 2003)

PowerHouseMcGru said:


> check your inbox.... :lol:


Waaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!


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## Jay Walker (Jun 24, 2003)

benki11 said:


> no you did t:whistling:


Its okay, he didnt, no backwheel snaps.


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## Hotdog147 (Oct 15, 2011)

benki11 said:


> no you did t:whistling:


He sent me this!


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## PHMG (Jun 15, 2010)

Hotdog147 said:


> Why you running prov mate? Fertility?


yep


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## Jay Walker (Jun 24, 2003)

Hotdog147 said:


> He sent me this!
> 
> View attachment 104724


Haha, brutal.

Sorry, enough thread pollution, back on topic.


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## PHMG (Jun 15, 2010)

Hotdog147 said:


> He sent me this!
> 
> View attachment 104724


severe case of small gun big sack there. that woman is proper stunning though...and seems to love balls!


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## mlc2010 (Apr 2, 2012)

PowerHouseMcGru said:


> guys. little imput from me.
> 
> ive run 100mg proviron each day for the past 2 weeks and 500iu 3 times over the past week. my balls have nearly doubled in size.
> 
> food for thought.


From their normal size, so they are double what they usually are?

Proviron helping with libido?


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## benki11 (Sep 17, 2010)

mlc2010 said:


> From their normal size, so they are double what they usually are?
> 
> Proviron helping with libido?


yes it does but is week steroid as well and it will

shot you down, like any other steroid if you thinking

of takin it while on pct or post pct!


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## PHMG (Jun 15, 2010)

benki11 said:


> yes it does but is week steroid as well and it will
> 
> shot you down, like any other steroid if you thinking
> 
> of takin it while on pct or post pct!


not true im afraid. effects of proviron are more akin to adex. it blocks estrogen and therefore promotes testosterone production. its only technically a steroid. it wont shut you down.


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## benki11 (Sep 17, 2010)

PowerHouseMcGru said:


> not true im afraid. effects of proviron are more akin to adex. it blocks estrogen and therefore promotes testosterone production. its only technically a steroid. it wont shut you down.


by Bill Roberts

Contrary to common belief, Proviron is somewhat inhibitory of the HPTA. Using it during the recovery phase as part of post-cycle therapy is counterproductive. It is also inadvisable for this reason to use it continuously while intending to be off-cycle, but occasional recreational use presents no problem.


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## Hotdog147 (Oct 15, 2011)

Prov is nothing like adex! Lol

The anti e properties of prov are way over hyped

It certainly doesn't increase testosterone it may free up a little by binding to shbg though

And it can be suppressive, depends on length of time it's used


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

I personally would not use it in recovery protocols.


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## benki11 (Sep 17, 2010)

4th day today on 100 clomid,20 nolva and 20000iu hcg 8x-eod!

Still dont feel any different,no size increase , no clomid depresion ,no acne , and most important no morning woods or libido at all!

i wouldsay i had more libido before i started with this,but probobly still early to tell anyways


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## benki11 (Sep 17, 2010)

3 th 2500 iu jab just done ,stil don't feel a thing


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## Jay Walker (Jun 24, 2003)

Give it time, things will straighten themselves out.


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## pYp3s (Nov 8, 2012)

Hotdog147 said:


> Why you running prov mate? Fertility?


sorry to go off topic, but how does it help with fertility?

cheers


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## benki11 (Sep 17, 2010)

pYp3s said:


> sorry to go off topic, but how does it help with fertility?
> 
> cheers


Abstract

Two hundred fifty subfertile men with idiopathic oligospermia (count less than 20 million/ml) were treated with mesterolone (100-150 mg/day) for 12 months. Seminal analysis were assayed 3 times and serum follicle stimulating hormone (FSH) luteinizing hormone (LH) and plasma testosterone were assayed once before treatment and repeated at 3, 6, 9 and 12 months after the initiation of treatment. One hundred ten patients (44%) had normal serum FSH, LH and plasma testosterone, 85 patients (34%) had low serum FSH, LH and low plasma testosterone. One hundred seventy-five patients (70%) had moderate oligospermia (count 5 to less than 20 million/ml) and 75 patients (30%) had severe oligospermia (count less than 5 million/ml). Seventy-five moderately oligospermic patients showed significant improvement in the sperm density, total sperm count and motility following mesterolone therapy whereas only 12% showed improvement in the severe oligospermic group. Mesterolone had no depressing effect on low or normal serum FSH and LH levels but had depressing effect on 25% if the levels were elevated. There was no significant adverse effect on testosterone levels or on liver function. One hundred fifteen (46%) pregnancies resulted following the treatment, 9 of 115 (7.8%) aborted and 2 (1.7%) had ectopic pregnancy. Mesterolone was found to be more useful in patients with a sperm count ranging between 5 and 20 million/ml. Those with severe oligospermia (count less than 5 million) do not seem to benefit from this therapy.


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## benki11 (Sep 17, 2010)

Does HCG ,Clomid or Nolva do anything with sex drive ,becouse even with small testestorone I woud do it at least 5 times a week if not every day ,but since I started Hcg ,clomid and nolva ,nothing,0 sex drive it makes me mad

Anyone knows why?

I thought clomid ,nolva and hcg would temperery increase you test and libido not other way around ?


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## Guest (Dec 22, 2012)

benki11 said:


> Does HCG ,Clomid or Nolva do anything with sex drive ,becouse even with small testestorone I woud do it at least 5 times a week if not every day ,but since I started Hcg ,clomid and nolva ,nothing,0 sex drive it makes me mad
> 
> Anyone knows why?
> 
> I thought clomid ,nolva and hcg would temperery increase you test and libido not other way around ?


When on clomid and nolva you can kiss sex drive goodbye. It will come back once you start to taper down the doses, but at the start, they kill it stone dead. Don't ask me why, i'm just speaking from my own experiences with them


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## benki11 (Sep 17, 2010)

OldManRiver said:


> When on clomid and nolva you can kiss sex drive goodbye. It will come back once you start to taper down the doses, but at the start, they kill it stone dead. Don't ask me why, i'm just speaking from my own experiences with them


I know what you mean ,but would still love to know why


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

It just depends on the person.

Post cycle when androgens are low, sex drive is a problem.

If the HCG is no good, this would suggest the problem.

If the HCG is good, then it could be the clomid, and or nolva.


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## benki11 (Sep 17, 2010)

hackskii said:


> It just depends on the person.
> 
> Post cycle when androgens are low, sex drive is a problem.
> 
> ...


Any way of testing HCG to tell is it potent ?

I am sure about clomid and nolva!


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## benki11 (Sep 17, 2010)

Would ****ing on pregnecy test detect hcg levels in my urine,Positive,or little bit from syringe ?


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## ItsaSecret (May 28, 2012)

benki11 said:


> Would ****ing on pregnecy test detect hcg levels in my urine,Positive,or little bit from syringe ?


inject some of the hcg onto pregnancy stick


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Use an early pregnancy test, if it turns positive it is good to go.

I bought some from Mexico before and they all were bad, I tested them and they showed negative.

I think if they get hot, it ruins them.

When I bought them in Mexico it was probably 105 degrees there in the summer and just sitting in the pharmacy which had no air conditioning.

If it shows negative recovery will be seriously compromised.


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## benki11 (Sep 17, 2010)

I ll test tomorrow my hcg with pt p test and post results here

Btw ever hear about Organon fake hcg??


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## benki11 (Sep 17, 2010)

Update 5 th jab of hcg 3 to go!

Will test Hcg ater St.Stevens day everithing close in Ireland ,had great Morning woods last 3 days ,but Sunday evening I poped Cialis

So it might be that ,still no difference in size or do I feel any different what so ever since Protocol started .


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## benki11 (Sep 17, 2010)

14 day of power pct 7 th hcg jabed!

had night wood two days in row now without

Viagra , nice, and my face getin oily !

j


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## musclekick (Aug 6, 2012)

How long to go? Bloods?


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## benki11 (Sep 17, 2010)

musclekick said:


> How long to go? Bloods?


45 days in total 14 days done !

I had bloods twice prior to this pct and you can see them at beginning of this thread!

Because it holidays time next blood il do will be 2 weeks past pct?

And I'll upload them here so will find out does Power Pct works


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## benki11 (Sep 17, 2010)

Update Hcg done still on 100mg clomid and 20 mg Nolva (20 days)

Today in Gym I noticed a bit of strength increase , is it possible that clomid and Nolva or HCG increase testesterone that much

That I can acctialy gain on streinght ???Because I did!!!

Morning ,night wood stil active !


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## benki11 (Sep 17, 2010)

26 day of Power pct ,got morning wood only 3 times after last hcg jab,then they stopped:cursing: face skin is oily as F*ck ,I can get Hard one quickly but libido is non existent !

Can t wait to stop with PCT and see my bloods


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## sprayer (Nov 8, 2012)

benki11 said:


> 26 day of Power pct ,got morning wood only 3 times after last hcg jab,then they stopped:cursing: face skin is oily as F*ck ,I can get Hard one quickly but libido is non existent !
> 
> Can t wait to stop with PCT and see my bloods


Do yourself a favor and when you get bloods done next time look into your thyroid. Your TSH is high and most probably you have an issue there. Ft3 you need to check also. I would also test for antibodies to rule out auto immune diseases such as hashimotos.

The protocol has always been fix thyroid 1st as it can have a great deal of impact on hormones including testosterone. This has been documented.

100mg clomid daily wow that is pretty big dosages. You know I read a study stating 5mg tamoxifen was just as effective as 20mg.

I have never had to do pct but I did try a test run of clomid to see if it would fix my secondary issue. I saw results with 25mg daily, tamoxifen saw results with 10mg daily. So I honestly think that even with half the dosages I would have fared the same. My clomid dosage was too high at 25mg daily caused too many issues mainly with extremely elevated e2.


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## benki11 (Sep 17, 2010)

hackskii said:


> It just depends on the person.
> 
> Post cycle when androgens are low, sex drive is a problem.
> 
> ...


Hi Hack !

I have a question for you 

How long post PowerPCT to take bloods ? How long does it take for Nolva and Clomid to clear from system?


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

benki11 said:


> Hi Hack !
> 
> I have a question for you
> 
> How long post PowerPCT to take bloods ? How long does it take for Nolva and Clomid to clear from system?


4 weeks.


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## benki11 (Sep 17, 2010)

Update

Last day on clomid so just two weeks of nolva left,feel worst today and last few days no libido ,no night/morning woods

Nothing !

Disappointed


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## benki11 (Sep 17, 2010)

It look Like that hcg realy helped at the time I was using it,feelt great had increase in weight and strenght ,I was full of energy all together and Then it seem since dropping hcg ,libido went down again ,strenght and feeling empty and weak !


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## benki11 (Sep 17, 2010)

Update

3 days since last Nolvadex

2 more weeks and blood test,can't wait!

Hope I won't be disapointed !

But morning wood still not there every night.... :cursing:


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## CL0NE7 (Jan 25, 2013)

benki11 said:


> Update
> 
> 3 days since last Nolvadex
> 
> ...


Hi benki,

Can't wait to find out the results of your blood test. I am all over this

Good luck 

C7


----------



## clarky81 (Jan 25, 2013)

benki11 said:


> Update
> 
> 3 days since last Nolvadex
> 
> ...


Good luck mate.


----------



## benki11 (Sep 17, 2010)

Won't be waiting for 4 weeks for bloods I ll wait just 10 days because my Medical insurance is expiring so I don't fancy paying for bloods!

So I got an appointment with my GP this thursday at 10.15 am ,I hope this is early enough in morning because there is no earlier time

avaible at all!

Do I have to fastening night & morning before bloods ?


----------



## benki11 (Sep 17, 2010)

Update

Bloods were taken this morning around 10.30 am !

I could t do it any earlier because GP had no free time avaible at all in early mornings ,his office opens at 10.00mg:

I hope this wont influnce badly my testesterone levels , and I had sex night before and some people say that this can hinder test results as well? Hope not!

So after all bloods were taken around 10 days post power pct and we ll see did Power Pct work on me in few days !

Can t wate until results I just hope Power Pct did work and I recovered at least to some degre !!! :tongue:


----------



## clarky81 (Jan 25, 2013)

benki11 said:


> Update
> 
> Bloods were taken this morning around 10.30 am !
> 
> ...


How long u got 2 wait i get mine next wk it's bn 3 wks same boat as u mate.


----------



## benki11 (Sep 17, 2010)

clarky81 said:


> How long u got 2 wait i get mine next wk it's bn 3 wks same boat as u mate.


Did you do Power Pct as well?

If yes how long did you wait post nolvadex to do bloods?

I will find out results on Monday !


----------



## clarky81 (Jan 25, 2013)

No it was after a tren test cycle never had probs b4 obviously it was ok on cycle lol but after pct labido was o so went 2 the doc 2 month after pct told her a had no nrg no sex drive ect ect so she did a full bloods 2 wk ago so go back next wk 2 get results a never used hcg but i'v got it now for my next 1 .


----------



## clarky81 (Jan 25, 2013)

Iv never used clomid for pct only nolva ma source does not have it he said it bad stuff 2 many bad sides so does not sell it and i have always bn fine with nolva and never used hcg b4 but i will from now on and a always use a ai on cycle .


----------



## benki11 (Sep 17, 2010)

clarky81 said:


> No it was after a tren test cycle never had probs b4 obviously it was ok on cycle lol but after pct labido was o so went 2 the doc 2 month after pct told her a had no nrg no sex drive ect ect so she did a full bloods 2 wk ago so go back next wk 2 get results a never used hcg but i'v got it now for my next 1 .


Update results when ready mate realy intrested to see!


----------



## clarky81 (Jan 25, 2013)

benki11 said:


> Update results when ready mate realy intrested to see!


A will do mate ill ask her 4 a copy its next wed and ill post them up.


----------



## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

clarky81 said:


> Iv never used clomid for pct only nolva ma source does not have it he said it bad stuff 2 many bad sides so does not sell it and i have always bn fine with nolva and never used hcg b4 but i will from now on and a always use a ai on cycle .


Well some people get sides from it, some like myself do not get sides from clomid with the exception of tracers in my eyes after 3 to 4 weeks use.

I am no fan of nolva only PCT's, they did not work on me.

There is alot of supporting evidence that clomid is superior to nolva used alone, I use both myself.

Clomid can double LH output, and increase FSH by up to 50% at 100mg per day for 5 to 7 days.

They even use clomid do diagnose secondary acquired hypogonadism, not nolva.

So, basically your source is full of it.


----------



## clarky81 (Jan 25, 2013)

hackskii said:


> Well some people get sides from it, some like myself do not get sides from clomid with the exception of tracers in my eyes after 3 to 4 weeks use.
> 
> I am no fan of nolva only PCT's, they did not work on me.
> 
> ...


I would use it if a could get it but he doesn't stock it iv never had any probs b4 hackskii but but last cycle was the highest av ran test 800 tren 400 a know thats not much 2 some ppl. I will use hcg from now on aswell maybe that will help alot but thats the only thing a can't get of him clomid.


----------



## sprayer (Nov 8, 2012)

benki11 said:


> Update
> 
> Bloods were taken this morning around 10.30 am !
> 
> ...


Did you get those thyroid tests too?

Well sexual activity 24hr prior to blood draw will increase prolactin which might effect testosterone as to how much or how little can't say. But you probably should have abstained to be truly 100% certain it had no effect.

How do you feel?


----------



## sprayer (Nov 8, 2012)

hackskii said:


> Well some people get sides from it, some like myself do not get sides from clomid with the exception of tracers in my eyes after 3 to 4 weeks use.
> 
> I am no fan of nolva only PCT's, they did not work on me.
> 
> ...


I've seen the same results with 25mg daily and would be willing to bet 12.5mg daily would probably do exactly the same as 100mg daily. I think people tend to take excessive amount of clomid and nolva when in reality a much lower dose would have the same results.


----------



## benki11 (Sep 17, 2010)

sprayer said:


> Did you get those thyroid tests too?
> 
> Well sexual activity 24hr prior to blood draw will increase prolactin which might effect testosterone as to how much or how little can't say. But you probably should have abstained to be truly 100% certain it had no effect.
> 
> How do you feel?


It s too late for sex now , lol , hope it won't influence it much!

I think gp filled form for thyroid as well not sure , but we ll find out soon!

I feel physical

and mentally fine ,great!

Sex drive is't at best ever I believe but it s

ok , I can get it up and perform any time

I want to , sperm volume improved as well

at one stage I was almost shutting blanks(nothing would come out)

but that Is history now 

And geting night woods every night last week or more!

I hope I did recover at least to some level

otherwise ...........


----------



## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

sprayer said:


> I've seen the same results with 25mg daily and would be willing to bet 12.5mg daily would probably do exactly the same as 100mg daily. I think people tend to take excessive amount of clomid and nolva when in reality a much lower dose would have the same results.


Well, the endo doctors use 100mg of clomid to diagnose secondary hypogonadism.


----------



## benki11 (Sep 17, 2010)

Just talked to nurse on phone and she told me great news!

She said your copy of bloods will be ready after 4 pm today but as far as she can tell everithing is within rage now!

yhoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo yes yes yes :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :beer:

But where in range can t wait 4 pm to find out and then I'll update Latest results!!!


----------



## Hotdog147 (Oct 15, 2011)

benki11 said:


> Just talked to nurse on phone and she told me great news!
> 
> She said your copy of bloods will be ready after 4 pm today but as far as she can tell everithing is within rage now!
> 
> ...


Sounds promising :thumb:

Be sure to report back mate


----------



## clarky81 (Jan 25, 2013)

:thumb:



benki11 said:


> Just talked to nurse on phone and she told me great news!
> 
> She said your copy of bloods will be ready after 4 pm today but as far as she can tell everithing is within rage now!
> 
> ...


Sounds good mate. :thumb:


----------



## benki11 (Sep 17, 2010)

UPDATE

Well I got the copy of it and I am less euphoric now then few hours ago:cursing:

But I ll never know what was my testesterone levels before ever starting on steroids so this might be normal and might not!

So I ll put up all tree blood tests that I ever done for testesterone levels just to compere .

first taken 3 months after pct (tren test 14 Week-PCT Clomid ,Nolva)

23/10/2012

Total testesterone 7.0 nmol/l range 9.9-27.8

fsh 2.5iu/l range 1.5-12.4

lh 1.9iu/l range 1.7-8.6

free t4 16.1 range pmol/l 10.5-22.0

tsh 5.88 mlu/l 0.27-4.20

second one taken 4 months after pct

30/11/2012

Total testesterone 7.7 nmol/l range 9.9-27.8

fsh 3.6 iu/l range 1.5-12.4

lh 2.7 iu/l range 1.7-8.6

free t4 18.3 range pmol/l 10.5-22.0

tsh 4.14 mlu/l 0.27-4.20

01/02/2013 (latest one)

Total testesterone 12.8 Nmol/l (9.9-27.8)

FSH 4.6 iu/l (1.5-12.4)

Lh 4.4 iu.l (1.7-8.6)

So did I recover ? Certainly to some degree but don't know cause I did t now my levels prior to steroids!

Blood was drown aroun 11.00 am Thursday morning and if I understand wel

This could lower tast levels as well as it s supposed to be done first thing early in morning,but it wouldn't influence it that much ?

I have done bloods around 10 days post power pct so my bigest concern is that this test levels are still influenced by nolva and clomid ?

Well hope not but had to do test earlier becouse my Medical Card is about to expire and I won't be getting new one so I done it for free!

I ll tag @hackskii because I would love if you answer and comment my post PowerPCT bloods ?

But anyways thank you Hackskii for helpin me out your Power Pct protocol do work !!! :thumb:


----------



## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Well, if you look at the FSH, and LH numbers they look good.

It does look like the nuts are just moving along slowly back into speed.

This suggests to me that HCG was not used during the cycle?

What was the total amount in iu of HCG you used?

I do think you will get there, could run a couple of weeks clomid.


----------



## benki11 (Sep 17, 2010)

hackskii said:


> Well, if you look at the FSH, and LH numbers they look good.
> 
> It does look like the nuts are just moving along slowly back into speed.
> 
> ...


I only ever run HCG as a part of Power PCT witch ended 2 weeks ago

I run 20 000 iu 16 days eod 2.500 iu ! with Clomid 100mg 30 days and Nolvadex 20 mg 40 days

Now It has been 6 month since last steroid injection ,is it possible that this test levels are normal for me !

I remember forever I had problems with anxiety and I was skiniest guy in scool at 18 I weight 50 Kg with 182 cm hight!

I looked like those hungry people from Africa just skin and bones with big belly now that was before I ever started steroids witch I done first time around 2.5 years ago in my 30 s and had acne problems big since I know for myself and I still don't have fully graven beard just few hairs here and there!

I just wonder maybe this are my natural test levels?

Hackskii what if I do another cycle with hcg from first week at 1000 iu weekly throughout cycle up to PCT?

Can I do it now or should I still wait it s been 6 monts and I wanna go back!!!

But to mention my strenght didn't go much down even since last cycle my test

Levels were almost non existent , I am still nearly as strong as I was at peak of my cycle just that endurance is t there anymore I loose my strenght after 30 min in gym ! So I am happy with my gains didn't lose any kgs as well and for last few days I feel great maybe best

I ever felt ,sex drive is good and eractions hard.

So should I g back on gear???


----------



## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

benki11 said:


> I only ever run HCG as a part of Power PCT witch ended 2 weeks ago
> 
> I run 20 000 iu 16 days eod 2.500 iu ! with Clomid 100mg 30 days and Nolvadex 20 mg 40 days
> 
> ...


Well, if you feel ok, have morning wood, can keep an erection, masterbate with success no problems, then you are worrying about nothing.

I too am low end of normal range, but I only shave once a week, and this is all normal for me, I still have night time erections, and had a sex dream the other day where I was getting a blow job that I swear felt totally real to me, then I woke up:lol:

When to cycle is your choice, just do not use drugs that hammer the HPTA like deca, tren, anadrol, winstrol, etc.

The 500mg test cycles for 8 weeks will be fine, gains will happen too.


----------



## AlwaysANewb (Dec 2, 2012)

hackskii said:


> Well, if you feel ok, have morning wood, can keep an erection, masterbate with success no problems, then you are worrying about nothing.
> 
> I too am low end of normal range, but I only shave once a week, and this is all normal for me, I still have night time erections, and had a *sex dream the other day where I was getting a blow job that I swear felt totally real to me, then I woke up* :lol:
> 
> ...


Did she at least finish you off? :laugh:


----------



## benki11 (Sep 17, 2010)

AlwaysANewb said:


> Did she at least finish you off? :laugh:


Lol


----------



## benki11 (Sep 17, 2010)

hackskii said:


> Well, if you feel ok, have morning wood, can keep an erection, masterbate with success no problems, then you are worrying about nothing.
> 
> I too am low end of normal range, but I only shave once a week, and this is all normal for me, I still have night time erections, and had a sex dream the other day where I was getting a blow job that I swear felt totally real to me, then I woke up:lol:
> 
> ...


----------



## Jay Walker (Jun 24, 2003)

One thing to note, my levels were 15.4 nmol/l 2 weeks post PCT.

I then had them tested 6 weeks later and they had dropped to 8 nmol/l.

I think its too soon to say you've recovered, they may drop again.


----------



## benki11 (Sep 17, 2010)

Jay Walker said:


> One thing to note, my levels were 15.4 nmol/l 2 weeks post PCT.
> 
> I then had them tested 6 weeks later and they had dropped to 8 nmol/l.
> 
> I think its too soon to say you've recovered, they may drop again.


This is after Power PCT ?

You used anything in between your pct and last blood test?

Can I ask your cycle history?

Did you use hcg during or after cycle?

Sorry mate to many questions but I am possessed with recovery now


----------



## Destiny1 (Dec 20, 2012)

Looking better than my latest blood test nmol greater than 52

And liver alt 234 a d that was 3 week into pct


----------



## Jay Walker (Jun 24, 2003)

benki11 said:


> This is after Power PCT ?
> 
> You used anything in between your pct and last blood test?
> 
> ...


You might be okay, I just think its too soon after PCT to judge if successful or not, but the more bloods you do, the more complete the picture will be.

Well, I started my PCT too early, but I had a sore nip and wondered how I would fare after starting a week after my last enanthate shot of 125mg.

I only did 10000iu of HCG during PCT, but did the clomid/nolv at the usual Power PCT levels.

I used HCG half the time during my course which was 8 months in total (this is down to my job, I cannot use it whilst Im away at work).

My PCT was less than ideal, the next one will be much longer and more complete.

I didnt use anything between PCT and my last blood test, only vitamin E, D, ZMA and Boron.

Try again in 4 weeks, hopefully you will have held/or increased.

All the very best with it all.


----------



## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

benki11 said:


> Well, it is not as easy as this suggests.
> 
> Deca for example can be used for male fertility with higher degree than that of testosterone.
> 
> ...


----------



## benki11 (Sep 17, 2010)

hackskii said:


> I decided to run cycle starting tomorrow this time around I have ,armidex,hcg (45000 iu  just in case) loads of clomid ,with my
> 
> Gear .I will do 12 week cycle and will do shout of 1000 iu HCG every week and while waiting for esters to clear 2 to 3 weeks I ll blast HCG 10000 iu 4 x. 2500 eod 4 days before PCT starts Clomid 100 mg 4 weeks and Nolva 20mg for 45 days !
> 
> ...


----------



## Hotdog147 (Oct 15, 2011)

benki11 said:


> I decided to run cycle starting tomorrow this time around I have ,armidex,hcg (45000 iu  just in case) loads of clomid ,with my
> 
> Gear .I will do 12 week cycle and will do shout of 1000 iu HCG every week and while waiting for esters to clear 2 to 3 weeks I ll blast HCG 10000 iu 4 x. 2500 eod 4 days before PCT starts Clomid 100 mg 4 weeks and Nolva 20mg for 45 days !
> 
> ...


No need for the hcg blast when you're using it on cycle


----------



## benki11 (Sep 17, 2010)

Hotdog147 said:


> No need for the hcg blast when you're using it on cycle


Thanks

So 1000 iu once a week up to few days before pct is fine or there is better way of doing it?

And do I need nolvadex as well becouse of HCG sterilisation or not during cycle?

Thanks


----------



## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Just leave it at 500 twice a week including clearance time


----------



## Hotdog147 (Oct 15, 2011)

benki11 said:


> Thanks
> 
> So 1000 iu once a week up to few days before pct is fine or there is better way of doing it?
> 
> ...


Just stop the day you start pct yeah, no need for nolvadex IMO although it wouldn't do any harm

1x1000iu weekly shot is how I and many others do it, I wouldn't bother splitting it unless you're very prone to gyno from hcg shots


----------



## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Hotdog147 said:


> Just stop the day you start pct yeah, no need for nolvadex IMO although it wouldn't do any harm
> 
> 1x1000iu weekly shot is how I and many others do it, I wouldn't bother splitting it unless you're very prone to gyno from hcg shots


So, are you suggesting once a week will be ok with estrogenic sides?

I do not endorse this protocol for stimulation issues nor estrogenic sides.

I always will, & have suggested twice a week for good reason.


----------



## Hotdog147 (Oct 15, 2011)

hackskii said:


> So, are you suggesting once a week will be ok with estrogenic sides?
> 
> I do not endorse this protocol for stimulation issues nor estrogenic sides.
> 
> I always will, & have suggested twice a week for good reason.


Yeah pretty much, I'm quite gyno prone and I don't have any issues with the 1 weekly shot, nor do all the others who do it this way mate

Be interested to hear why you suggest 2 shots, fair enough if one suffers gyno symptoms, of course then it's wise to split the shots

So do you disagree with the following which is part of the sticky?....

From my latest research (taken from a recent article by the Endocrinology Society) i am now using and advocating the protocol of 1000iu injected once weekly.

Here is the science behind this protocol:

An in vivo injection or an episode of LH secretion induced by GnRH, results in stimulation of the side-chain cleavage enzyme with the subsequent release of testosterone within 30-60 minutes of LH stimulation. The acute response to an injection of LH is dramatic in some species such as the rat and the ram but is much more attenuated in the human. This testosterone response lasts approximately 24-48 hours. If human chorionic gonadotrophin is used as an LH substitute, the kinetics of the initial stimulation are similar to LH but a second peak of testosterone secretion is evidence with hCG and occurs 48-72 hours after the initial injection. This biphasic pattern has been attributed to the observation that between 24 and 48 hours after an LH or hCG injection, the Leydig cells are refractory to further stimulation by either hormone. The second phase of testosterone secretion after hCG but not LH is associated with the longer half-life of hCG in comparison to LH. The hCG levels persist in the circulation and, following recovery from the refractoriness, testosterone levels increase. This observation has significant clinical importance since, in many men, a single weekly injection of hCG will suffice to maintain optimum testosterone responses rather than the frequent practice of giving injections of hCG two to three times per week.

The stimulation of leydig cells with large amounts of hCG rapidly reduces their number of receptors, this phenemenom is termed down-regulation.

Although these changes decrease testosterone levels to just above diurnal maxima 24-48hrs after initial injection repeated stimulation does not yield the same results.

A single injection of hCG is followed by a long steroidogenic response characterized by two phases of testosterone secretion.

Studies show that this second phase which can last as long as 8 days can increase testosterone in plasma by 2.2 x above maximal diurnal secretion even though hCG is no longer present in plasma.

The results indicate that hCG injections can be given every 6-7 days due to the prolonged steroidogenic response.

It is advisable to start this protocol around week 2-3 in the cycle and continue till the start of PCT.


----------



## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Hotdog147 said:


> Yeah pretty much, I'm quite gyno prone and I don't have any issues with the 1 weekly shot, nor do all the others who do it this way mate
> 
> Be interested to hear why you suggest 2 shots, fair enough if one suffers gyno symptoms, of course then it's wise to split the shots


Its just simple math.

1000iu alone gives me gyno.

Half life is just about 3.5 days.

Shoot higher, higher response from estrogen, and to be fair over-stimulation of the leydig cells is not needed anyway due to they have not been under-stimulated in the first place.

The whole bi-phasic stuff is just one guys report on his findings to suggest some secondary response to HCG.

But, science does not back his claims, no studies confirm this to my knowledge.

So, if we have a well represented TRT doctor that uses 350iu during his TRT treatment to give favorable results to secondary acquired hypogonadism along with TRT support to treat hypogonadism with good results.

The numbers do not add.

This is a basic math issue.

1000iu gives me gyno

Estrogen is approx 200 times more suppressive than testosterone, yet if leydig cell damage is due to intra-testicular aromatase activity, why use more than needed?

If I gave you some finishing nails to put in some crown molding, would you use a sledge hammer?

Of course not.

You would use the tool you need for the job.

This is just a numbers game, and to be honest, the best numbers to fit the job fit, the numbers that do not fit, well, just sound careless to me.

That bi-phasic crap just smells to me, it is all in the numbers.

I see nothing to support this, nothing.

Your ascertation of many guys is ok, but does not defend this position with basic math, unless the math is all wrong.

Just sayin

I see no need to bang 1000iu of HCG throughout, 500iu throughout seems more conservative, and also more practical.

I doubt double once a week works as well as half twice a week when testicular function is all the objective.


----------



## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Hotdog147 said:


> Yeah pretty much, I'm quite gyno prone and I don't have any issues with the 1 weekly shot, nor do all the others who do it this way mate
> 
> Be interested to hear why you suggest 2 shots, fair enough if one suffers gyno symptoms, of course then it's wise to split the shots
> 
> ...


Well, I see you edited your post.

OK, so lets just look at this logically for a minute.

If HCG is a LH analog, and mimics LH, why does LH not act the same way as HCG does?

If testosterone is spiked days outside of stimulation then what is stimulating?

If LH is highest in the morning due to circadian rhythm, why not the bi-phasic results in LH?

You see, I am all for using hormones to supplement our bodies rhythm, but some of the doses are or could be harmful, again, common sense is not prevailing here, just some dude writes a review and suggests something absurd.

I am not buying it.

I personally feel that part of the bro science is seriously lacking common sense.

LH is pulsed, and certainly not in the respects of 1000iu once a week.

If any desensitization issues are at risk, this would be one of them.


----------



## benki11 (Sep 17, 2010)

I am doing 500 iu twice a week (I would eat my own s....  if Hackskii say so ,he is such a leged) can I mix it with gear in same syringe for less frequent jabs?


----------



## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

benki11 said:


> I am doing 500 iu twice a week (I would eat my own s....  if Hackskii say so ,he is such a leged) can I mix it with gear in same syringe for less frequent jabs?


I do not want you to do because I say so.

Challenge.

Just ask a question.

I know we all have many.

But, not until you know you know, keep asking, and then ask again just for good measure.

Mine is not yours, either yours, mine.

It is in the area of grey that is the answer.

My motivation is one out of love, to help dudes, help them do what they think they need to do.

Why take my advice anyway?

I am just a man.

Older, but same as you when I was younger.

In life, there are obstacles, you may go around, or go through, this the question that has to weigh the ego against logic.


----------



## sprayer (Nov 8, 2012)

The problem with that study it does not go into details what dose was used.

I also believe lower more frequent injections is the way to go. Most of the people on TRT who have a protocol that works do 250iu 3 per week. This is has been shown to be a replacement dose and with very few e2 sides and you do away with the risk of desensitization of the leydig cells.


----------



## reza85 (Jan 11, 2009)

hackskii said:


> I do not want you to do because I say so.
> 
> Challenge.
> 
> ...


Hacks whats your thoughts and HCG on TRT ?

Thanks


----------



## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

reza85 said:


> Hacks whats your thoughts and HCG on TRT ?
> 
> Thanks


I like it for several reasons, if it was caused from secondary hypogonadism then you will get testicular function, and ascetically speaking, no man wants testicles to look like ear lobes with his woman touching them.

Small balls to me would bring insecurity issues.

Second the pregnanolone implications for feel good hormones make more sense and bring a better balance to the man.

I am all for it.


----------



## reza85 (Jan 11, 2009)

is 2500/300 x2 aweek enough?


----------



## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

2500?


----------



## benki11 (Sep 17, 2010)

reza85 said:


> is 2500/300 x2 aweek enough?


I don t get you mate


----------



## sprayer (Nov 8, 2012)

He is asking if 250-300 x2 weekly is enough.

My research has told me you want 250iu 3x per week. Something like M-W-F is a pretty standard protocol.

This is a substitute dose with minial e2 sides and prevention of leydig desensitization.

But monitor e2 and take appropriate AI. If on TRT and you add HCG you may also find you will be able to lower your testosterone dosage because of the added HCG.

I think being on TRT and adding in HCG is highly recommended.


----------



## Mars (Aug 25, 2007)

hackskii said:


> Its just simple math.
> 
> 1000iu alone gives me gyno.
> 
> ...


 @hackskii

Are you serious? That as you put it is not just one guys opinion, that is from a 2010 study by the endocrinolgy society.

Also i'll point out that 1000iu once weekly will NOT over stimulate the leydig cells but the 2500iu EOD for 8 shots certainly will.

Believe what you like but stick to the facts rather some struck off Dr's bullsh1t,

Its' not bi-phasic crap, i posted medical scientific facts in that study, it's not some BS bro-science, read the bloody literature.


----------



## benki11 (Sep 17, 2010)

hackskii said:


> Just leave it at 500 twice a week including clearance time


Hackskii how long can i store my hcg mixed with bac water in fridge can i use it for 5 weeks ?


----------



## m575 (Apr 4, 2010)

benki11 said:


> Hackskii how long can i store my hcg mixed with bac water in fridge can i use it for 5 weeks ?


You could freeze it until you use it. Don't know how long in the fridge.


----------



## benki11 (Sep 17, 2010)

m575 said:


> You could freeze it until you use it. Don't know how long in the fridge.


I know that but dont wanna fraze it because i use it mixed with tren and test in same syringe


----------



## m575 (Apr 4, 2010)

benki11 said:


> I know that but dont wanna fraze it because i use it mixed with tren and test in same syringe


Fair enough. Weirdo :lol:


----------



## benki11 (Sep 17, 2010)

m575 said:


> Fair enough. Weirdo :lol:


Less jabs mate!


----------



## m575 (Apr 4, 2010)

benki11 said:


> Less jabs mate!


Can hardly count sub q as a jab lets be honest lol


----------



## benki11 (Sep 17, 2010)

m575 said:


> Can hardly count sub q as a jab lets be honest lol


Lol i don't doing sub q ,too afraid mate:whistling:


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Mars said:


> @hackskii
> 
> Are you serious? That as you put it is not just one guys opinion, that is from a 2010 study by the endocrinolgy society.
> 
> ...


Well, I saw one guy post a review and no studies.

This was brought up on another board and disputed.

One study or one review?

Because the study would have to have a group and not a single guy.

Lets see the link then?

I still fail to see a 7 day spike in testosterone, I think that was one guys observation.

The 2500iu EOD using the doctors protocol does not have leydig cell desentization as evidence with the blood work in his work using 19 men and all returned to normal levels of LH, FSH, and testosterone after the 45 day protocol.

Its numbers and only numbers, timing wont change results.

If it takes 20,000iu to recover in 16 days, or a month with HCG, the response from the stimulation is the same.

Saying the protocol is outdated (as you have suggested in the past) is just your opinion not based on facts, it works, it has worked on many guys, and will still work once the dust is settled.

I have even heard of you suggesting 5000iu for shots.

I still think the biphasic stuff is just some author making some suggesting where I have not seen the evidence using a group of men.

Lets see the facts as you say it, not just some dudes review, anything can be extrapolated from someone suggesting anything.

Lets stick to what works.


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## Arc (Jan 17, 2013)

i am with hackskii frequent low dose injections

plus thats FDA approved protocol for secondary Hypogonadism



> Selected cases of hypogonadotropic hypogonadism in males.
> 
> 500 to 1,000 USP Units three times a week for three weeks, followed by the same dose twice a week for three weeks.


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## Arc (Jan 17, 2013)

benki11 said:


> I know that but dont wanna fraze it because i use it mixed with tren and test in same syringe


don't do that

jab subq in abdominal region


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

This snip below was taken from AMERICAN ASSOCIATION OF CLINICAL ENDOCRINOLOGISTS

MEDICAL GUIDELINES FOR CLINICAL PRACTICE

FOR THE EVALUATION AND TREATMENT OF HYPOGONADISM

IN ADULT MALE PATIENTS-2002 UPDATE

*
Now it is a bit old but the dose is 1,000, to 2,000 IU administered 2 to 3 times a week.*

Gonadotropin Therapy in Androgen Deficiency

It is known that hCG binds to Leydig cell LH receptors

and stimulates the production of testosterone.

Peripubertal boys with hypogonadotropic hypogonadism

and delayed puberty can be treated with hCG instead of

testosterone to induce pubertal development. The initial

regimen of hCG is usually 1,000 to 2,000 IU administered

intramuscularly two to three times a week (65). The clinical

response is monitored, and testosterone levels are measured

about every 2 to 3 months. Dosage adjustments of

hCG may be needed to determine an optimal schedule.

Increasing doses of hCG may reduce testicular stimulation

by down-regulating the end-organ; thus, a more optimal

result may occur with less frequent or reduced dosing. The

half-life of hCG is long.

The advantages of hCG over testosterone in this setting

include the stimulation of testicular growth, which

may be an important issue for some men. Use of hCG may

also yield greater stability of testosterone levels and fewer

fluctuations in hypogonadal symptoms (66). In addition,

hCG treatment is necessary for stimulating enough intratesticular

testosterone to allow the initiation of spermatogenesis.

The disadvantages of hCG include the need for

more frequent injections and the greater cost.

Below is the doctors work, which by the way has treated more than one thousand men for steroid induced hypogonadism, his numbers speak for them self:

ScallyVergelAstractHPGA.pdf


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## benki11 (Sep 17, 2010)

Arc said:


> don't do that
> 
> jab subq in abdominal region


Any perticular reason reason why not?


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

benki11 said:


> Any perticular reason reason why not?


Less scar tissue buildup?

Pain?


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## benki11 (Sep 17, 2010)

hackskii said:


> Less scar tissue buildup?
> 
> Pain?


That's the reason I don't do it sub q fear ,it look so painfully to inject yourself in your belly mg:


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## Mars (Aug 25, 2007)

hackskii said:


> Well, I saw one guy post a review and no studies.
> 
> This was brought up on another board and disputed.
> 
> ...


The studies are on the bi-phasic pharmacokinetic properties of hCG, not on a single person but on males as a whole lol.

Lets address this part first.

Yes 5000iu *once weekly* due to hCG's pharmacokinetic bi-phasic properties.

The bi-phasic pharmacokinetic properties of hCG are not by some author, they have been established by some of the best scientists in the field.

The main reason for these bi-phasic pharmacokinetic properties is because hCG is a *Dimeric* glycoprotein.

The main reason for the bi-phasic response is because estradiol plays an intratesticular role in androgen production and an increase in leydig cell aromatase.

The rise in estradiol partially suppresses the cytochrome P450c17 enzyme *leading to a dampening effect on hCG induced testosterone synthesis*.

As plasma levels begin to fall there is an accompanying decrease in *aromatase activity and estradiol synthesis which relieves the partial enzymatic block*.

Now, although Tmax is reached in around 2hrs, because of the above, (highlighted) maximal plasma testosterone concentrations are reached again around days 3-4.

There is a lot more you should know and i will post it but in the meantime you could read kessler et al or Kieman et al. Or many of hCG's bi-phasic pharmacokinetic properties can be found in the pages of JCEM.

BTW, as for sticking to what works, there's a hundred guys on here who will tell you it works.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/article/Clinical-Chemistry/209622649.html

When hCG is injected into humans, it reportedly has a biphasic disappearance curve with an initial fast half-time of ~5 h and a slow one of 24-32 h [14-16]. Injected hCG[alpha] and hCG[beta] are cleared from circulation much more rapidly than hCG [16,17]. hCG[alpha] has a rapid half-time of 13 min and a slow one of 76 min. The corresponding times for hCG[beta] are 41 and 236 min, respectively [18,191.

http://jcem.endojournals.org/content/61/5/926.short

Unless I am reading this wrong, the hypogonadotropic hypogonadism (HH) group got no early spike of 2 to 7 hour yet did get the spike at 48-72 hours.

The biphasic I am reading is hours, and days, not a week.

And with guys with testicular atrophy I doubt it is biphasic, but peak at 48 to 72 hours.

Post steroid use of HCG to return testicular function would move towards the hypogonadotropic hypogonadism (HH) group.

Again, if the spike for rising testosterone levels is 48-72 hours then the EOD protocol seems perfect to spike.

If the 7 day response had nothing to do with HCG and its stimulatory function on the leydig cells, then I see no benefits of it being done once a week.

I have read some of your posts on EOD dosing as a waste of HCG but this is just not so, clearly the evidence with the endo society using it 2 to 3 times a week does not support this, and neither does any stuff I have ever read.

5000iu once a week over 4 weeks offers no benefits over 20,000 done over 16 days.

Actually I see more benefits using the EOD as testicular function would be restored faster, and more time to let the SERMS do their work making the pituitary more sensitive to GnRH, thus speeding up recovery by weeks.

The only problem I would have would be that of refractory issues.

If like sex, there is some refractory period where the drug will not work as effective then id say that needs to be addressed.

But from many of the drug places I went to all suggested:

*Elimination*

Blood concentrations decline in a biphasic manner with half-lives of approximately 6 to 11 h and 23 to 38 h, respectively. Within 24 h, 10% to 12% is excreted in the urine.

Again: early peak after 4 h, a nadir at 5 h, and a second peak 24 and 72 h after hCG loading, respectively.

http://jcem.endojournals.org/content/50/5/879.abstract

But, guys that have atrophied nuts dont get the first peak, only the second, this is no doubt due to testicular function being compromised.

As testicles become more sensitive, less HCG could be used, and probably the biphasic results with 2 spikes would probably be observed.

Padron RS, Wischusen J, Hudson B, Burger HG, de Kretser DM.

The response of plasma testosterone to varying doses of hCG (0--6000 IU) given as a single im injection has been evaluated in normal men. *After an initial rise at 2 h, the levels of testosterone demonstrated a secondary rise, reaching a peak 48 h after the im injection.* The magnitude of the response varied directly with the dose of hCG used, and at the highest dose (6000 IU) testosterone levels were still elevated 6 days after administration. Plasma estradiol levels showed a dose-dependent rise, with peak levels being attained 24 h after hCG. The prolonged response of plasma testosterone to a single injection of hCG should prompt a reevaluation of diagnostic and therapeutic regimens using this agent.

PMID: 7372789 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

In red, notice that the more was used the longer it elevated testosterone, but I would not suggest this much.

*Testicular responsiveness to a single hCG dose in patients with testicular feminization.*

Balducci R, Adamo MV, Mangiantini A, Municchi G, Toscano V.

Clinica Pediatrica 2nd University, La Sapienza, Rome, Italy.

The suggestion that androgens may regulate testosterone (T) production in rat Leydig cells by a receptor-mediated feed-back mechanism, led us to investigate whether in vivo the absence of testicular androgen receptors, as it occurs in testicular feminization (TF), may modify the characteristic testicular response observed in men and prepubertal children after a single dose of hCG. Subjects consist of: 1) six normal men, 2) two adult patients with the complete form of androgen insensitivity syndrome (TF), 3) 12 normal prepubertal boys, 4) one prepubertal boy with the same form of TF. Each subject received i.m. a single dose of hCG 3500 IU/m2 b.s. and blood samples were collected basally and 2, 4, 24, 48, 72 and 96 hours after the hormonal stimulus. Serum levels of T, 17 alpha hydroxyprogesterone (17OHP) and 17 beta estradiol (E2) were measured at each collection time. In normal men a significant *increase in T (M +/- SE) was observed at 4 h (758.6 +/- 135 ng/dl, P less than 0.05) and a more significant increase at 48 h *(1082 +/- 60.3 ng/dl, P less than 0.001). E2 and 17OHP peaked significantly at 24 h (81.5 +/- 9.6 pg/ml and 460.7 +/- 90.9 ng/dl respectively). This response pattern is characteristic of the testicular desensitization which occurs in normal man after a single hCG dose. The same response pattern has been observed in the two TF adult patients suggesting that human testicular desensitization in vivo does not depend on androgen receptors.(ABSTRACT TRUNCATED AT 250 WORDS)

PMID: 2793066 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

But, to be fair, normal men with normal leydig cell sensitivity would have both spikes and no doubt as you can see faster.

Dr. John Crisler suggested that if men are using HCG due to secondary acquired hypogonadism it is used every day.

Here is EOD protocol to test ITT

http://jcem.endojournals.org/content/90/5/2595.abstract

Abstract

In previous studies of testicular biopsy tissue from healthy men, intratesticular testosterone (ITT) has been shown to be much higher than serum testosterone (T), suggesting that high ITT is needed relative to serum T for normal spermatogenesis in men. However, the quantitative relationship between ITT and spermatogenesis is not known. To begin to address this issue experimentally, we determined the dose-response relationship between human chorionic gonadotropin (hCG) and ITT to ascertain the minimum dose needed to maintain ITT in the normal range. Twenty-nine men with normal reproductive physiology were randomized to receive 200 mg T enanthate weekly in combination with either saline placebo or 125, 250, or 500 IU hCG every other day for 3 wk. ITT was assessed in testicular fluid obtained by percutaneous fine needle aspiration at baseline and at the end of treatment. Baseline serum T (14.1 nmol/liter) was 1.2% of ITT (1174 nmol/liter). LH and FSH were profoundly suppressed to 5% and 3% of baseline, respectively, and ITT was suppressed by 94% (1234 to 72 nmol/liter) in the T enanthate/placebo group. *ITT increased linearly with increasing hCG dose (P < 0.001). Posttreatment ITT was 25% less than baseline in the 125 IU hCG group, 7% less than baseline in the 250 IU hCG group, and 26% greater than baseline in the 500 IU hCG group.* These results demonstrate that relatively low dose hCG maintains ITT within the normal range in healthy men with gonadotropin suppression. Extensions of this study will allow determination of the ITT concentration threshold required to maintain spermatogenesis in man.

Notice how Baseline serum T (14.1 nmol/liter) was 1.2% of ITT, so ITT is many many times higher than serum, this suggests 80 times, I was reading a while ago it was 40 times higher

http://www.reproduction-online.org/content/68/2/295.abstract.

Testosterone response to rats given one shot of HCG is 2 h (24 ng/ml) and 3 days.

I thought this was interesting.

The results of the present study do not support the hypothesis that oestradiol is involved in the hCG-induced refractoriness of the Leydig cell.

http://www.reproduction-online.org/content/67/2/457.abstract

Abstract

Summary. In adult animals the intramuscular injection of hCG was followed by a *rapid rise in plasma testosterone levels within 2-3 h and at doses of 40 and 80 i.u. hCG this primary response was followed by a second peak of testosterone at 48 h.* Prepubertal marmosets also responded to hCG stimulation with a rapid increase in plasma testosterone levels within 3 h, but the magnitude of this peak was lower than that observed in adult animals and no biphasic pattern was observed.

In adult and prepubertal animals a second dose of hCG (40 i.u.) administered 24 h after the initial injection failed to produce a further rapid increment in plasma testosterone levels.

in red I believe they are talking about refractory periods here.

I cant seem to find anything that suggests spikes in testosterone day 7, and I have looked for over an hour, I just do not see it.

I am thinking every 3 days might be a better option just to be safe of the refractory periods, but recovery suggests this may not be necessary.


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## Mars (Aug 25, 2007)

hackskii said:


> http://www.freepatentsonline.com/article/Clinical-Chemistry/209622649.html
> 
> When hCG is injected into humans, it reportedly has a biphasic disappearance curve with an initial fast half-time of ~5 h and a slow one of 24-32 h [14-16]. Injected hCG[alpha] and hCG[beta] are cleared from circulation much more rapidly than hCG [16,17]. hCG[alpha] has a rapid half-time of 13 min and a slow one of 76 min. The corresponding times for hCG[beta] are 41 and 236 min, respectively [18,191.
> 
> ...


I never said there was lol, i said 1000iu p/w works and thats what i recommend, you recommend 500iu twice per week and if you actually read some of my posts you will find i have concurred with this, if thats the way some ppl would rather administer their hCG then i dont see the problem and have advised this to some ppl who are concerned about gyno, it makes no difference either way, except it's one less jab, so i don't see what your problem is.

As for posting all those studies i fail to see why, do you honestly think i haven't read them all before and more besides?

*But what i do see from the what you have posted is that your studies show plenty of evidence for hCG's pharmacokinetic bi-phasic properties and certainly not "just some author making a suggestion"* :whistling: .


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Mars said:


> I never said there was lol, i said 1000iu p/w works and thats what i recommend, you recommend 500iu twice per week and if you actually read some of my posts you will find i have concurred with this, if thats the way some ppl would rather administer their hCG then i dont see the problem and have advised this to some ppl who are concerned about gyno, it makes no difference either way, except it's one less jab, so i don't see what your problem is.
> 
> As for posting all those studies i fail to see why, do you honestly think i haven't read them all before and more besides?
> 
> *But what i do see from the what you have posted is that your studies show plenty of evidence for hCG's pharmacokinetic bi-phasic properties and certainly not "just some author making a suggestion"* :whistling: .


Well, it is not biphasic for guys that have testicular atrophy, and that is what most guys have post cycle.

I just remember you suggesting that EOD dosing before was a waste of HCG, clearly it is not.

Now, if you like I will dig around and show you those posts, but then again I wont want to waste any more of our precious time here.

I do remember some mention of some biphasic response 7 days later that was some form of mystery, which may be true but nothing to do with HCG, and likely due to pituitary.

EOD dosing is fine when no HCG has been used.

I have no issue with single dose of HCG once a week, as long as the numbers here are the same, I see no issue.

But, 1 shot of 1,000iu HCG for me did give me gyno.

This may not happen to other men, but then again it may happen to other men.

Some guys do not like to run an AI during (I dont like this idea with using aromitizable steroids), but that is their choice, if aromitizable steoids are used, and you give a guy one shot of 1,000iu, there is a high likelyhood of some estrogenic sides, most notably gyno.

The docs protocol is not out dated, it works, and works pretty well, I see no reason to modify anything that has a pretty good success rate.


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## Mars (Aug 25, 2007)

hackskii said:


> *Well, it is not biphasic for guys that have testicular atrophy, and that is what most guys have post cycle.*
> 
> *I just remember you suggesting that EOD dosing before was a waste of HCG, clearly it is not.*
> 
> ...


Excuse me (apart from that statement being totally untrue, have you forgotten about about hCG's effects on P450 dynamics, it's in the sticky, last paragraph :lol: ) but isn't the protocol i suggest about guys using hCG *on cycle* before the testes shutdown????????????

It is according to the Endocrinology society and i trust them more than some ex Dr struck off for selling steroids, yes it may work but there are better protocols.

This a joke seeing as you yourself recommend an AI because estrogen in your words is 200x more suppressive than testosterone.

*As for not wasting anymore precious time, thats a joke, the community need the latest information and the correct information, this is hardly a waste of time*.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Mars said:


> Excuse me (apart from that statement being totally untrue, have you forgotten about about hCG's effects on P450 dynamics, it's in the sticky, last paragraph :lol: ) but isn't the protocol i suggest about guys using hCG *on cycle* before the testes shutdown????????????
> 
> It is according to the Endocrinology society and i trust them more than some ex Dr struck off for selling steroids, yes it may work but there are better protocols.
> 
> ...


Well, you yourself said the biphasic pulse was 72 hour and 7 days.

Tell me you did not suggest this from one abstract one guy posted.

I clearly remember you suggesting that.

This is clearly not true.

I also clearly remember you mentioning that EOD dosing of HCG was a waste of HCG.

Clearly that is not true as well.

I still feel that using HCG twice a week during the cycle at 500mg is the best approach, it limits the estrogenic sides of HCG, and beings that the pulse is 72 hour this dosing makes the most sense, and is perfect timing.

But, we are not talking about that here, we are talking about hypogonadism 4 months post cycle, where the doctors protocol is being contemplated.

And to that biphasic means nothing to a hypogonadal male with steroid induced shutdown.

The idea here is to restore testicular function.

EOD dosing that the doctor recommends works, it has a proven track record, and lets not forget, he has treated more than a thousand men.

His methods do work, are proven, and I myself have used this myself to recover, and I have the blood tests before and after to prove it.

You can say all you want, but the truth does not need a defense, it will stand on its own, and I have the blood tests before and after to prove it.

Oh, and not just mine, but others as well.

You are free to use it or recommend recovery protocols all you want, but when you make statements like EOD dosing of HCG is a waste of HCG, that is not correct and I will call you on that one, which is BS (bro science) :lol:

I find it funny that you will dress up your comments with big words like Dimeric glycoprotein, to suggest your protocol is better, or makes more sense, but absolutely no substance what so ever, nor will there be any proof, oh and by the way I got bloods to prove it.

Wanna do some show and tell here? :lol:


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