# Blast/cruise at age 30.



## redman (Feb 2, 2008)

Ok so I have reached 30 I have 2 children and im fully aware of the risks involved in never really comming off again.

I have been off for 6 months now and concidering an all out assault in gaining as much muscle mass as possible over a 24-36 week period then to follow this up with a 24 week cruise and then slip into 12 week cycles of blast cruise.

An example of the cycles.

weeks 1-6 Test-e 600mg/w

weeks 7-12 Test e 750mg/w

weeks 13-18 Test-e 750mg/w tren-e 250mg/w

weeks 19-24 test-e 900mg/w tren-e 300mg/w

cruise 250mg/w test-decanoate 24 weeks

second cycle.

weeks 1-4 Test-e 600mg/w EQ 400mg/w

weeks 5-8 Test-e 750mg/w EQ 600mg/w

weeks 9-12 Test-e 1000mg/w EQ 750mg/w

cruise for 12 weeks 200mg test-decanoate/w.

etc.

I am looking for feedback reguarding the effectiveness of blast crusie cycles in younger men or the effectiveness of cycles when the athlete has not come off and instead used TRT.

Also I am looking for opinions on the length of the cruise portion of the cycle after all recovery is not what I am looking for just to refresh the receptors so increasing amounts of AAS do not have to be used to yeild gains.

Thanks Redman


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## pauly7582 (Jan 16, 2007)

Sounds like you've decided, but how did you feel being off for 6 months?

Do you have low tesosterone? Supressed for a long time? What are your blood levels?

The reason I ask is that 6 months- I assume without knowing your cycle history- would be enough to recover from the average cycle. So why not cycle as normal?

Just curious.


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## pauly7582 (Jan 16, 2007)

Sorry just noticed you're 30. Your only 5 years older than me! Meaning you would be on AAS for another 40 years if you made 70?

I always think as well, that if at any point you are admitted to hospital for an extended period your immunity will near vanish because you can't support yourself with your regular injections (MRSA for starters). I'm certain no doctor would prescribe testosterone even in this case.

I'd advise against it whatever you current situation mate.


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## Guest (May 28, 2008)

> if you made 70?


that would be a big if, this is from a 43 year old.


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## redman (Feb 2, 2008)

I have been off for 6 months out of choice. I feel fine have no surpression and my blood work is A+, I have ran cycles lasting over 20 weeks and made a full recovery. When off cycle I have issues with cortisol, I am a highly stressed individual and I feel that test goes a very long way in controlling cortisol.

again I am fully aware I would be on Test for 40 years plus. My dad age 61 has been put on TRT by his doctor and feels instantly better (never cycled in his life). Come my mid to late 50s I would likely visit my doctor and be placed on androgel of simular so I dont worry, I know an ex competitive bodybuilder who has been on for over 25 years at stupid doses and cruised at 500mg/w his doctor simply prescribed him TRT when he told him what he had done.

One thing is for certain that come the age of 50-55, im going on TRT and GH till I die either way. If my doctor will not prescribe it to me ill either find a new doctor or do it my self, so the way I see it is I have 20 years to cycle in. If this way of thinking means I live 5 years less so be it, as I believe I will enjoy my life in my old age a whole lot better my dad certainly is.

I have a great PCT in place but I hate the feeling of comming off, I dont want to feel great for 10 of those 20 years and be in recovery for the other 10. obviously I am refering to multiple cycles hear. When I come off I retain mass and strength well but cortisol spikes and I feel very emotionaly stressed.

Romper stomper your comment has no scientific grounding what so ever. I would have every chance in making it to age 70, instead of cycling off I would simply be replacing my own test with sytehetic test. There is actually another side to the arguement that states this approach would help extend my life as test combats cortisol and cortisl is seriously not my friend. I realise that the body is going to try and find a homostais balance with cortisol:test ratio but I would not have to endure post cycle spikes. Stress is indeed a killer.

The other reason I am confident I will make 70 is my diet/lifestyle/training are excellent, I dont drink, smoke and I avoid 17aa AAS. The average man is sedentry and has poor diet and less than ideal life style. Im confident I will make 90!

I spoke to a freind of mine reguarding this who is an amazing endrocrinologist and he suggested a crusie dose of 100mg/w of test-e with a next generation SERM namely toremiphene. Repeated studies have shown 100mg/w of test-e with a SERM to have no surpressive effect on the HPTA, (yes read that again) or test without the use of SERM will have no surpressive effect on the HPTA at 25mg/w

After looking into this a litte further I found a PCT protocol devised by a very well respected competitive bodybuilder called the "stasis taper or test taper".

Post cycle the individual injects 100mg/w of test-e split into two weekly injections for a period of 4-6 weeks (4 weeks for short esters, 6 weeks for long). This "stasis period" is designed to let all other compounds clear the system and for a hormonal environment simular to that of an average man to exist. 100mg/w of week of test-e minus the ester weigth equates to around 9mg/d of test.

This stasis period is followed by a test taper. Now I know what your thining tapers dont work but we are not talking 800mg 600mg 400mg etc. We are Talking 80mg/60mg/50mg/40mg/30mg/20mg. In consecutive weeks.

The test stasis taper is designed for cycles lasting 12-16 weeks and it is vital you only use test and a SERM not HCG/HMG this is used throughout the cycle and stops before the 6 week stasis period. both on paper and as I am told in real world applications (with blood work to back this up) this PCT protocol is proving to offer exceptional recovery with a seamless transation and no crash.

I have spoken both to the endocrinologist and the gent who devised this PCT about prolonged cycles and they were both in agreement that recovery would simply take longer. forcycles lasting 24 weeks or longer I was advised to complete a test taper in a weekly manner as thus. 80/80/60/60/50/50/40/40/30/30/20/20.

This may be the answer I have been looking for, I grow better off long cycles and hate the feeling of low or no test.

One thing for certain is that if i choose to cruise I will do so at 100mg/w of test-e and not 200.

for me....

HCG throughout the cycle and nolva and clomid for PCT work.

HMG and HMC throughout the cycle and the next generation SERMs Toremiphene and raloxifene work better.

Iam going to at least try one PCT recovery using the stasis taper and report back.

Hears an outline as devised by my friend Prisoner.

This is the protocol:

Following the cycle use a 4-6 week waiting period also refered to as 'stasis period' by somebody.

4 weeks if you are using esters such as propinate.

esters such as cypionate and enanthate are in the middle - 4-6 week waiting period - your decision as it is a tough call. I prefer more weeks then less.

6 week waiting period for esters such as decanoate -i.e. deca.

During the waiting period you should taper off any aromatase inhibitors you are using - basically get rid of all drugs in your system besides testosterone.

Once the waiting period is over, then gradually reduce the dose weekly for 6 weeks untill you are off.

I preffer injecting enanthate twice per week as my ester of choice. But you can use propinate or sustenon as well, just devide it into 3 doses per week.

Once the taper starts, that is around the time you would start using a serm if you are going to use one.

You can taper without a serm and still be successfull doing so.

the research showed no hpta suppression while using a serm and low dose testosterone - 100mg per week

It also showed no hpta suppression with no serm use while using 25mg of testosterone enanthate per week.

So as i said it is possible to taper with our without a serm successfully.

If you are using HCG during the cycle to maintain testicular size and function - you must stop HCG at the end of your cycle and by hcg free throughout the waiting period.

So to put it all together using testosterone enanthatate dose split into biweekly injections:

Cycle ends, stop hcg if using,

start Waiting peroid:

Week 1-6 or 1-4: Test E 100mg per week

Taper off Arimidex or femara fully by week 3

Taper phase:

week 1-6

mg/ week: 80mg / 60mg/ 50mg/ 40mg/ 30 mg/ 20mg.

Start your Serm (nolva or clomid) at the begining of the taper if you choose to do so.

If you decide to use Masteron,

Then you use 50mg Test E, and 50mg Masteron E per week or masteron prop, with test prop for the waiting period, and keep the ratio the same as you taper down as well (1:1, with the starting totol mg amount 100mg).

No Serm use is needed and i have found libido to be even better when using this mix.

the masteron acts as an anti E, and the DHT enhances libido. The masteron itself at that amount does not subtract from hpta function more than it adds libido enhance ment, and estrogen control.

The masteron is the only drug that i have found to fit the bill perfectly for this purpose, but you can try aromasis as well, but I don't think it would have the same positive effects on libido.

As for using other drugs during your pct that may enhance workouts and maintain size...

there are a wide variety of supplements out there that have no negative effect on the hpta.

As for other drugs, some options would be:

IGF, MGF, HGH....

Clenbutoral,

and Insulin which I highly do not recommend.


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## Aftershock (Jan 28, 2004)

Interesting read.

I have been bridging on 125mg of test E between cycles for about 9 months now, although I do plan on experimenting with the longer Undecanoate ester as some point to reduce the frequency of the shots while still keeping blood levels stable.

I do not need to excessively increase my AAS dosage when on to start gaining well. 750mg is ample.

I don't do it as scientifically as you have outlined but I do taper off my cycle dose back to the cruising dose and employ anti-catabolic drugs such as GH/Slin during the taper to help override the cortisol backlash.

I find I need at least 8 weeks of cruising before Im even ready to contemplate upping the dose again. Which is in reality about 12 weeks from the point I start to taper off. I cant put my finger on exactly why I just know instinctively that my body is not ready for it before then.

Interesting with HPTA recovery while running Torm, I've seem a similar article with Clomid. I'll try and dig it out. It could be useful when bridging just to give the body a break from the HCG.


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## redman (Feb 2, 2008)

Aftershock said:


> Interesting read.
> 
> I have been bridging on 125mg of test E between cycles for about 9 months now, although I do plan on experimenting with the longer Undecanoate ester as some point to reduce the frequency of the shots while still keeping blood levels stable.
> 
> ...


thanks for the feed back I just what I was looking for. reps.

If I were you I would add a SERM and drop your weekly test dose to 100mg/w as research shows no surpression with this protocol using Toremifene at 40mg/d. without Torm test intake needs to be lower than 25mg/w in ordr to have no supressive effect on the HPTA. I would alsoadd in proviron as this again has not effect on the HPTA. Both Torm and Proviron increase sperm count and quality. Torm also has the added benefit of protecting against prostate cancer and actually having a positive effect on the HPTA. With all this in mind I feel HCG can be dropped during the bridge. Also it is vital to drop HCG if this bridge or stasis phase is followed by a test taper PCT.

For further reading proof I suggest reading the following.

1: The effect of mesterolone on sperm count, on serum follicle stimulating hormone, luteinizing hormone, plasma testosterone and outcome in idiopathic oligospermic men.

2: The beneficial effects of toremifene administration on the hypothalamic-pituitary-testicular axis and sperm parameters in men with idiopathic oligozoospermia.

3: Toremifene for the prevention of prostate cancer in men with high grade prostatic intraepithelial neoplasia: results of a double-blind, placebo controlled, phase IIB clinical trial.

IMO nolva and clomid are dead long live Toremifene and raloxifene.

Ill be running the stasis taper after a 24 week cycle to judge its effectiveness and then jump on to blast cruise and maybe attempt a stasis taper after 60-80 weeks of blast cruise. If I make a full recovery using the taper method I will have no reservations about being on full time.

Now its time to research cortisol control. Aftershock I know your interested in that side of things.


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## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

i have not really come off aas for a couple of years now,Im 34 started by accident, ran a course, finished, had a few sh1t weeks so put a couple of shots of sus in to boost training and thats how it started, just another shot if feeling a bit weak etc...

Then i didnt like the bloat that test was giving me so i went a year just running primo and masteron and occasionally a little bit of tren, i ran HCG every 3-4 days at 400iu while at same time running gh and slin PWO on training days, i also ran proviron at aroung 150mg a day every 4 weeks for a few weeks...

During this time i managed to get my Gf pregnant, which was a miracle because she thought she never could get pregnat what with polycistic ovaries and other probs....

Thought i better run some PCT so i didnt come of but run low dose Primo along with fast acting shots pre workout (ie test base, tren base, inject oxy etc) my thinking was primo would inhibit but not completely shut down HPTA, so PCT meds could possible work, and by utilising very fast acting esterless aas Pre workout, test levels were only raised for a few hours so it would not cause further shut down.

I added Proviron to this cycle as well.

AS far as i could see my nuts came back, sex drive was fine, was living a catabolic lifestyle and maintaining mass and strenght so things seemd ok.

During this time i had an operation, blood tests were taken before hand and doc said results were all in range, he didnt specify and i didnt ask....

Then decided to compete in Powerlifting so then went back on test at around 1500mg a week along with around 800mg tren,all along running HCG, GH and slin

Did this for about 4 months, no problems apart from sleep disturbances and hearburn from tren, which i then ceased.

Currently im cruisng at around 500mg test a week, until i decide what my next move comp and aas wise is.

I now have no current plans to come off, im fully aware that i will prob have to run some sort of TRT for remainder of life unless (which i have no problem with) i want to feel sh!te for a year or so why my body re-adjusts...

Currently most people i know who compete or are at a decent muscular level around my age actually never come off and some run 1g plus a week test contiuosly with so far no ill effects.

A few have blood work done on occasion, and so far no probs to speak off....

Im not condoning anything and my method is far from scientific, its just the way things have turned out.

I fully expect to have more children and so far i dont see any reason why i cant as i was previoulsy on a course when got missus pregnant before


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## dean c (Nov 4, 2007)

i am pretty much emabarking on the same thing mate , im 26 and plan on staying on basically running hrt type doses between cycles .

it is reassuring the fact your in a similar position and have managed to have kids as this is my main concern as i havent started a family yet but definately want kids in a few years .my plan then was to come clean whilst trying for kids then go back on afterwards


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## Mars (Aug 25, 2007)

Hi redman, you know my take on this, but i was a tad older when i decided to employ that method. Don't get me wrong i'm certainly not saying it's a bad idea for you, but it sure as hell takes a lot of fiddling and fine tuning which i am still working on as you know.

As you may remember my blasts are now going to be shortened and i will also try the [email protected] E9D as opposed to weekly.

This approach with the shorter blasts and the taper down to cruise level, will i hope give me better gains on blasts.

I think long blasts for me are rather counter productive now, my best gains are made within the first 8wks, after which they slow down considerably. The extra 4wks i will now use to taper slowly down to cruise level. I'm also going to consider extending the cruise by a few more weeks.

I'll let you know how i get on.


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## redman (Feb 2, 2008)

Thanks for the imput guys.

I have now made my mind up.

Im not comming off, I will cruise with 100mg/w of test-e 40mg of tormiphene and 100mg/d proviron which research has shown to have no surpressive effect on the HPTA

Ill start with 24weeks on 12 cruise and then jump on to 12-16 on 8-10 cruise.

I grow very well on long cycles as I use what I call step cycling, I increase my intake every 4-6 weeks when I feel homostasis starts to kick in.

In the event I choose to cruise for longer than 8-10 weeks ill complete a stasis taper and get my test levels checked to see if it works.

OK hears the plan starting next monday.

Weeks 1-6

600mg/test-e week.

20mcg IGF1 PWO Bi lat

4iu GH EOD

5mg Aromasin/d

Weeks 7-12

700mg test-e/w

400mg EQ/w

25mg D-bol/d

5iu GH EOD

5mg aromasin/d

Weeks 13-18

800mg test-e/w

400mg EQ/w

200mg Tren-e/w

50mg proviron/d ( I always use proviron with Tren)

20mcg IGF1 PWO Bi lat

6iu GH EOD 4 units slin

10mg aromasin/d

Weeks 19-24

900mg Test-e/w

500mg EQ/w

250mg Tren-e/w

50mg proviron-d

100mg Var/d

DHEA 200mg/d

8iu GH EOD 6 units slin.

10mg aromasin/d

Week 25

100mg test-e/w

40mg Tormefine/d

5mg Aromasin/d

100mg DHEA/d

100mg Proviron/d

5iu GH/d 3iu am/ 2iu noon 2iu evening

Week 26

100mg Test-e/d

40mg Toremifene/d

5mg Aromasin/d

100mg DHEA/d

100mg Proviron/d

5iu GH/d 3iu am/ 2iu noon 2iu evening

Week 27

Test-e 100mg/w

40mg Tormefine

5mg Aromasin

50mg DHEA

100mg Proviron/d

5iu GH/d 3iu am/ 2iu noon 2iu evening

Week 28-?

100mg-test-e/d

40mg Toremifene/d

50mg Proviron/d

5iu GH/d 3iu am/ 2iu noon 2iu evening

Potential cortisol control period.....

Week 22, 250mg cytraden. monday/tuesday, thursday/friday.

week 23-24 500mg cytraden. monday/tuesday, thursday/ friday.

Week 25 250mg cytraden. monday/tuesday, thursday/ friday.

HCG 75iu HMG 75iu EOD weeks 1-24.

Adiquan 125mg every 2weeks.

Drugs on stand by.

Letro, cabbergoline, For Gyno.

Cyproheptadine HCL For appitite

Amoxicillin For infection.

Melanotan For a holiday at the end. LOL


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## Marsbar (Nov 10, 2007)

Some cracking posts and this is something that I've 99% made my mind up to do. I'm 34, 3 kids, had the snip and I know I'm in good health. Have only had a few weeks off in the last 12 months but not noticed any adverse effects (feel better than ever actually) which could also be down to the fact that I only ever really do test cycles. I do agree with tapering .. one of the best recoveries I ever made was after a 20 week test cycle I tapered off on prop for 8 weeks, ran PCT and recovered like a dream. Just come off my comp cycle and running 2-3 ml prop per week before I do my rebound .. will then cruise on 100-150mg test e pw before my next blast


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## jjb1 (Jun 28, 2007)

if your doing long esters for long time cycles wouldnt it make more sense to bridge with short esters like prop few more injections but your bridging letting the enan clear befroe a whack back in with enan in much higher doses to the prop..?

i really dont think its the way forward staying on and as redman has shown its alot of techinical planning and different drugs to make it anywhere near safer


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## wogihao (Jun 15, 2007)

I did & am doing blast/cruse but it was with much shorter periods. (3-6 weeks)

I kept growing so it was good, in the cruse periods i would go lighter on training and let the body recover from the session whilst on the blast. It seems to have worked ok and touch wood I havent had any injurys.

I think the bigest advantage is you never realy go into a catabolic hole whilst cruseing so your going to keep the majority of your gains from the burst assuming that your diet is ok.


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## pauly7582 (Jan 16, 2007)

Appreciate the points of view.

Seems like a very well thought out plan. I'm also of the opinion that I'd prefer to live a more fulfilling life, even if it is shortened slightly.

My only concern would be the dependence. I plan to travel and possibly move to a different country. Who knows what opportunities I might have in the future. Such a potentially complex medicine regimen might limit these. There are lots of 'what ifs' that spring to mind. I would only go down this avenue if I was unable to recover properly from AAS. But hey, that's just me. I don't intend to p1ss on anyone's party.

Good luck!


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## redman (Feb 2, 2008)

pauly7582 said:


> Appreciate the points of view.
> 
> Seems like a very well thought out plan. I'm also of the opinion that I'd prefer to live a more fulfilling life, even if it is shortened slightly.
> 
> ...


Fair point mate I also intend to live in another country, P.u.c.k.i.n.g lack of sun shine in this country gets me down.

I guess I do require a lot of drugs and there is the time and planning involved, Im quite certain though that no matter where in the world I will be able to source what I require.

Lets be 100% honest, im just an average guy, two kids, wife, 2 cats, white picket fence around the garden, roast beef on a sunday, sex on a tuesday, friday and sunday after X factor. :whistling: .. only joking i dont get it that often. :laugh:. You get my point though Im Mr average. Now if I wanted I could buy weed, smack, crack, uppers, downers, sidewayers, a gun and for about 5grand I could probably get someone killed, I could even get a dodge DVD and watch the new Harry Potter movie before it came out on cinema, we all can and the world is the same over. I dont worry about running out of test or toremifene.

I have taken my meds on holiday with me. Perscription test and put all my pills in a vitamin bottle and sealed it with a shrink band. Where there is a will my friend there is a way.

I remember when I first met my wife, I stalked the bitch for 6 months:rockon: She was a tough nut to crack I was taking a cialis every other day and cabbergoline twice a week so she thought I was a stud in bed. It didnt do me any harm.

I am so happy about staying on right now. Im all in with everything now. I will be Mr synthetic from now on.


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## pauly7582 (Jan 16, 2007)

Point taken.

On a different note. The only bloke I know who is on for good is a 21 stone ex Mr Britain.

He looks fukcing incredible.


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## Nytol (Jul 16, 2005)

redman said:


> Fair point mate I also intend to live in another country, P.u.c.k.i.n.g lack of sun shine in this country gets me down.
> 
> I guess I do require a lot of drugs and there is the time and planning involved, Im quite certain though that no matter where in the world I will be able to source what I require.
> 
> ...


PMSL :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Aftershock (Jan 28, 2004)

With regards to stepping the doses up I think this is a sensible thing to do on a longer cycle.

I dont think you would grow any quicker in the initial stages by running the higher dose, you can only grow at a predetermined rate (my goal is for a pound a week) so I would take whatever gear is necessary to achieve your goal. Any more than is necessary is simply a waste.

Bang in a higher dose and and you just waste an opportunity to grow well at that dose at a later point in time as your body will already be increasing cortisol and SHBG and trying to get back into homestosis.

This is in total contrast to a SHIC obviously where you try to increase to peak levels very quickly and grow dramatically in a short space of time.

What you have to be careful with I guess on the longer cycle is you don't keep increasing the dose to the point where you have set yourself up for a massive cort backlash when you stop. I don't think its an issue in your case as the doses are sensible anyway, but I think a lot of people who run extended cycles run into that trap.


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

Redman excellant posts and idea mate, i know you know your stuff and will leave nothing to chance, this is something i have thought about for the next 2-3yrs when i am not competing although initially i will use the Burst/Cruise on a rotation of 10 days me and Jimmy was talking about it on Wednesday night and it make sense to me....


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## Madeira Jon (Jan 11, 2008)

*redman*

*
*Have you seriously researched the effects this will have on your kidneys, liver and prostate. I refer you to see what happens to the prostate as you get older. I'm not stating that prostate cancer is certain or even probable, but what is highly likely to happen is that you will have an abnormally enlarger prostate which will result in needing a colostomy bag to pee into. The effects of that permanent cycle will enlarge the gland far more than normal ageing.

No doubt you have also considered the effects on your liver and kidneys.


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## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

Madeira Jon said:


> *redman*
> 
> *Have you seriously researched the effects this will have on your kidneys*, liver and prostate. I refer you to see what happens to the prostate as you get older. I'm not stating that prostate cancer is certain or even probable, but what is highly likely to happen is that you will have an abnormally enlarger prostate which will result in needing a colostomy bag to pee into. The effects of that permanent cycle will enlarge the gland far more than normal ageing.
> 
> No doubt you have also considered the effects on your liver and kidneys.


How can anyone do resaerch on long term\indefinite aas use as there have been no studies or experiments to go on?????

All we can use is data from HRT patients and those with other illnesses where other factors of ill health also come into play.

Where would you suggest people look for data on cruise\blast long term effects???


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

Madeira Jon said:


> *redman*
> 
> Have you seriously researched the effects this will have on your kidneys, liver and prostate. *I refer you to see what happens to the prostate as you get older. I'm not stating that prostate cancer is certain or even probable,* but what is highly likely to happen is that you will have an abnormally enlarger prostate which will result in needing a colostomy bag to pee into. The effects of that permanent cycle will enlarge the gland far more than normal ageing.
> 
> No doubt you have also considered the effects on your liver and kidneys.


Proastate cancer or enlargement of the prostate will happen to one in three men no matter what they choose to do in their life this is fact unfortunatly, the link between testosterone and prostate cancer is not as definate as it used to be their has been alot of studies carried out that have found no link.

if you think about it then men over 40yrs old commenly get prostate cancer/enlargement yet their test levels are considerably lower than when they where in their teens and twenties so why don't they get it then??


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## thestudbeast (Jul 20, 2007)

Pscarb said:


> Proastate cancer or enlargement of the prostate will happen to one in three men no matter what they choose to do in their life this is fact unfortunatly, the link between testosterone and prostate cancer is not as definate as it used to be their has been alot of studies carried out that have found no link.
> 
> if you think about it then men over 40yrs old commenly get prostate cancer/enlargement yet their test levels are considerably lower than when they where in their teens and twenties so why don't they get it then??


Yes they now think it relates to estrogen levels not testosterone! This is why test levels are *sometimes *linked to postate cancer. As testosterone can aromitize to estrogen. Estrogen levels unlike testosterone levels rise as you get older. Take home message: don't be a cheap skate and run an AI.


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## redman (Feb 2, 2008)

Madeira Jon said:


> *redman*
> 
> Have you seriously researched the effects this will have on your kidneys, liver and prostate. I refer you to see what happens to the prostate as you get older. I'm not stating that prostate cancer is certain or even probable, but what is highly likely to happen is that you will have an abnormally enlarger prostate which will result in needing a colostomy bag to pee into. The effects of that permanent cycle will enlarge the gland far more than normal ageing.
> 
> No doubt you have also considered the effects on your liver and kidneys.


I you read my post and the study on Toremifene you will se that it actually helps prevent prostate enlargement and cancer. I dont worry about liver stress as my use of 17aa steroids is limited and I would probably do more damage having a pint or two on a saturday night. Kidneys...... I dont see any link with regards to kidney function and long term AAS use.

Tbh, I was watching a program the other week on youtube where a group of anti steroid doctors were asked to find 1 (yes just 1) study that demonstarted long term side effects from AAS use in healthy men. They couldnt find one,,, why.... there isnt one.

The worst side effects were gyno and acne which are both very preventable and obviously short term, even the hepatoxicity studies showed 17AA were much les toxic than most peopl think.


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## redman (Feb 2, 2008)

Aftershock said:


> With regards to stepping the doses up I think this is a sensible thing to do on a longer cycle.
> 
> I dont think you would grow any quicker in the initial stages by running the higher dose, you can only grow at a predetermined rate (my goal is for a pound a week) so I would take whatever gear is necessary to achieve your goal. Any more than is necessary is simply a waste.
> 
> ...


Great point not only does homostasis never catch up but you can only grow muscle tissue at a critical rate, this is yet another reason I see no need for a kickstart. I feel I can grow at that certain rate for at least 24 weeks. I couldnt pull this off too often but after 6 months natty, Its the best oppertunity ill get, the best thing is if ever I stop growing I cruise again. Future blast cycles will be 12-16 weeks and ramp up in 4 week stages.


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## Nytol (Jul 16, 2005)

redman said:


> Tbh, I was watching a program the other week on youtube where a group of anti steroid doctors were asked to find 1 (yes just 1) study that demonstarted long term side effects from AAS use in healthy men. They couldnt find one,,, why.... there isnt one.


Hmmmm......

Isn't it amazing to think of all the legislation (esp in the US), based on the back of absolutely nothing at all! mg:


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## redman (Feb 2, 2008)

Nytol said:


> Hmmmm......
> 
> Isn't it amazing to think of all the legislation (esp in the US), based on the back of absolutely nothing at all! mg:


Dam right. The best of it is that the American medical association and the DEA actually advised the american government in 1990 not to make AAS a scheduled class III drug (or waht ever it is). Now the DEA are on a witch hunt with the FBI because they are loosing the war with the real drug cartels. Ill try and find the CNN report on youtube.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

I have been waiting for a post like this........cool......

Hey red, that would be prisoner22 by chance on Canadian juice Monsters would it?

I have read his taper a long time ago and have put alot of thought into this from a long time.

I agree that 100mg would be best as this is the typical TRT dose that they put men on here in the States. That long undeconate ester will offer you long stable blood levels.

First of all I would love to see that study on the 100mg of test with either clomid or tore, I have heard it has been around and I wasnt sure if it was adex used with it or not. I have heard of this study but could never find it, in fact a member just asked me this the other day if I had that article, I dont.

I think prisoner had it or something.

I would love to see that, if you dont mind.

Ok, a couple of things, large doses of test over time actually causes adrenal burnout, this elivates cortisol, below this post I will give you some information on that and what a friend of mine used to combat this nasty hormone.

Large doses as well as low amounts of testosterone hammer HDL's and drive up LDL's, this over time might become an issue as well as high blood pressure, anxiety and potential for a few other things like hair loss, left ventricular(sp) hypertrophy and potential for prostate issues (I totally believe this has more to do with estrogen than anything else).

So, a maintenance dose of an AI might be a good idea.

Tapering is a good idea, this totally helps avoid the crash from kind of a dependance on androgens, smart thinking bro, guys that are on a long time should follow this protocol.

Below is the cortisol stuff.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Ok bro, this is a copy of an e-mail from a friend of mine that suffered for a long with Cortisol issues.

Cortisol blockers?

Hah....

I have some learned information from you on that topic. Those OTC products are good for people with high normal ranges of cortisol or even slightly elevated levels of cortisol... but they do very minimal with people whose problem is a medical condition, a condition were their HPA Axis (not HPT, but HPA - A as in Adrenals Glands) has gone dysfunctional and become hyperactive.

What cortisol fighters are you aware of?

I am aware of the following list:

First Level (reported most strongest):

Phosphatidylserine - aka PS (*)

Holy Basil Extract

Magnolia Bark Extract (main ingredient in Relora)

Epimedium Extract

Rhodiola Rosea Extract

Ashwagandha Extract

Second Level (Good but not quite as strong - supposedly):

Gerovital-H3

Theanine

Melatonin

Gingko Biloba

Beta-sitosterol

Passionflower

Siberian ginseng (Caution - In some people will actually increase cortisol)

Also it is reported that 2 grams of glutamine daily along with 500 mg of NAC daily supposedly brings down cortisol levels rapidly.

(*) Note that ALL the tests showing cortisol-lowering effects of PS have been performed using the PS that has been derived from tissue of bovine brain (cow's brain). Due to "mad cow scares", no commercial mfg will market PS from this source - plus it would be extremely expensive. The marketed PS is made from synthesized soy. No controlled tests have been done that have shown that this form of PS has any effect on lowering cortisol. I tried PS at the dose of 400 mg daily for three months and found NO effect on lowering my cortisol.

At one point (late 2004 and early 2005) and I went on a "Wild Man" campaign of aggressive supplementing with every "cortisol fighting supplement) that I could get my hands on. I did PS (again, and again at 400 mg), Holy Basil Extract, Magnolia Bark Extract (main ingredient in Relora), Epimedium Extract, Rhodiola Rosea Extract, Gerovital-H3, Melatonin, Gingko Biloba, Beta-sitosterol, and Ashwagandha Extract. In addition, I did the 2 grams of glutamine daily along with 500 mg of NAC daily. My 24-hr UFC cortisol test levels just prior to this extensive campaign was 222 (range on all of these tests are 20 - 100). After 3 1/2 months of doing this regimen, my cortisol levels were brought down to 110. Quite a drop, but still above the reference range - and the cost of these supplements (at the mega doses I was taking especially) was staggering. I continued these supplementation for another 2 1/2 months and then stopped 2 weeks prior to my next 24-hr UFC cortisol testing... and that test result showed cortisol levels were back to about 215. So the supplements had done nothing to actually "re-set" the HPA Axis so that cortisol production would return to normal levels. In June of '05 I then went on the AD medication Remeron. While it has some mild anti anxiety properties (and obviously is an anti depressant), the main reason we gave it a try was that it has studies showing it to be an effective anti cortisol medications (but in milder elevated case). After three months, my levels had gone from 230ish down to 96 (same reference range). My next test was done after two more months on Remeron and then one month off and my levels were then around 150s to 160s.... Right after that I went to NIH Hospital in December and had tons of cortisol testings done (many, many 24-hr UFC and for a couple of days, cortisol blood tests being done around the clock - every 30 minutes during the day and every hour nightly). Unfortunately still have not received copies of those tests yet to see where I was at then - and my Endo is not going to re-start our 24-hr UFC tests every three months until he reviews NIH data....

So my point here is that recommendations concerning cortisol control should be made very, very carefully. Significantly elevated cortisol (even in some cases mildly elevated cortisol) can be signs of some serious illnesses - the various forms of Cushing's being predominant amongst them). Even worse - believe it or not - is if the person really has LOW cortisol and believes for some reason that there cortisol levels are high. A person in that category who then takes some of the stronger OTC cortisol supplements could drive their cortisol levels too low, creating an adrenal crisis situation and adrenal shock. This condition is generally not only very serious but most often fatal. An NIH nurse advised me that if you go into Adrenal Shock and cannot get to an ER within an hour, chances are you'll be dead. There's a saying that "too much cortisol will eventually kill you (hypercortisolism persons usually have a lifespan 10 - 15 years shorter than average), but too LOW of cortisol will kill you - RIGHT NOW... "

BTW, I can turn the above info on cortisol hormones (with a number of links) into a posting if you'd like)...

Bottom line: A lot of people confuse situations where there body has some minor misadjustments with conditions where people have outright medical malfunctions. Dietary adjustments, exercise programs, etc., etc. simply are not going to do the trick for them. I've been down the road with zinc and magnesium before bed - and had nothing with killer dreams and erections (but did get killer dreams and erections once my TRT started getting where it should be and I got back to taking Melatonin - which is looked at as a supplement, but is a hormone like DHEA and Testosterone and Cortisol and Estrogens, etc., etc.... As far as zinc being a natural aromatase inhibitor, I took numerous different variations AND doses of it and actual blood showed NO effect on reducing estrogens. Or in increasing natural testosterone levels. Again, IMHO, these things might work with someone who has levels that are slight off optimal ranges AND who has a deficiency with that particular mineral or vitamin or substance...

Don't get me wrong, I am a strong believer of supplements. I take a strong on-a-day of vitamins an one of minerals (MINUS the Iron - supplementing Iron is NOT good for males!!!). Additionally I take extra B vitamins ( B complex), A, D, and extra minerals: selenium, calcium, phosphorus, zinc and magnesium. I take the one-a-days in the morning and the "extras" in mid afternoon. Additionally, I do take some cortisol fighting supplements strictly in the morning (my evening and nighttime levels of cortisol are - interestingly - fine). I generally take a product that contains a combinations of green tea extract, but mainly Magnolia Bark Extract, Epimedium Extract, and Beta-sitosterol. I occasionally break up that routine by taking Holy Basil extract and/or Rhodiola Rosea Extract and/or Ashwagandha Extract... I don't believe they are having a day-to-day serious impact on reducing cortisol levels, but figure it's worth it to keep trying (I didn't want to stay on the Remeron as it was simply too sedating - my insomnia immediately went away while I was on it... as I was sleeping 12 - 16 hours a day!!!)... Then at night I take 2 - 4 mg of Melatonin.


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## Marsbar (Nov 10, 2007)

I would rather look like dave steele or john citrone when I'm in my 50's or 60's than decide to take the safe option and grow old gracefully!


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

thestudbeast said:


> Yes they now think it relates to estrogen levels not testosterone! This is why test levels are *sometimes *linked to postate cancer. As testosterone can aromitize to estrogen. Estrogen levels unlike testosterone levels rise as you get older. Take home message: don't be a cheap skate and run an AI.


Great post, and a great thread.

I know a TRT doctor that said in all his years he never has seen supplementing testosterone to cause prostate cancer or other issues.

Young men have very high T levels and never have prostate issues.

All men if they get old enough will have some form of prostate issue weather it be benign prostate hypertrophy, prostatitis, or prostate cancer. All men if they get old enough.

One problem is this, when a man gets older generally he will have more aromatase activity, this increases estrogen, approximately around 55 a man will have more estrogen than a woman and lower T levels than in his youth, this leaves the prostate at risk.

As above an AI just for estrogen management would be a good idea, also this would lower SHBG and offer more free T.


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## redman (Feb 2, 2008)

hackskii said:


> I have been waiting for a post like this........cool......
> 
> Hey red, that would be prisoner22 by chance on Canadian juice Monsters would it?
> 
> ...


Ha Ha, Yes that would be the Man, Mr prisoner 22. I do have the study showing that the HPTA was not surpressed one jolt with 100mg/test-e/week and 40mg torm/d. Ill have to do some serious digging for it.

I think that Torm would be enough to control estrogen during the cruise and help the chlorestol profile, also I take 15ml of omega 3,6,9 oil blend every day.

In one of my posts above it also outlines a study showing that torm protected and even reduced prostate enlargement/cancer. One of those mechanisms was through estrogen reduction.

AS for cortisol I outlined a protocol for the use of cytraden. The OTC stuff I will use to fill in the gaps.

Great post on the anti cortisol measures BTW.


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## redman (Feb 2, 2008)

Nytol said:


> Hmmmm......
> 
> Isn't it amazing to think of all the legislation (esp in the US), based on the back of absolutely nothing at all! mg:


Check this.


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## jjb1 (Jun 28, 2007)

redman said:


> I you read my post and the study on Toremifene you will se that it actually helps prevent prostate enlargement and cancer. I dont worry about liver stress as my use of 17aa steroids is limited and I would probably do more damage having a pint or two on a saturday night. Kidneys...... I dont see any link with regards to kidney function and long term AAS use.
> 
> Tbh, I was watching a program the other week on youtube where a group of anti steroid doctors were asked to find 1 (yes just 1) study that demonstarted long term side effects from AAS use in healthy men. They couldnt find one,,, why.... there isnt one.
> 
> The worst side effects were gyno and acne which are both very preventable and obviously short term, even the hepatoxicity studies showed 17AA were much les toxic than most peopl think.


i watched a fantastic documentry on the neographical channel about 'super strength' it was based on athletes using steroids and there effect on the human body.

it interviewed bodybuilders strong men and ex competitiers who used heavily through out there carreer, there was obviously split views on the AAS subject but with the 2 main american medical experts speaking 1 of them preached what your saying.

he basically said ALL studies on steroids being bad on the human body have either been indavidually based or two small a range to bare any real fact on humans in general, he went on to preach how smoking drinking beer ect anphetimenes all were much worse than AAS use in humans.

although in the ex bodybuilders they spoke to 1 said he was on for 10 years to make mr universe standards and did everything possible to keep his health as did his fellow bodybuilders BUT everyone of his ex competitiers has now got some sort of health problems and the only thing that they all have in common is the AAS usage.

but i said to my missis i really dont mean to be shallow but i think most people over 60 these days are unlucky to have some illness or problems no matter how big or small really

was a great programme if you get the chance watch it


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## thestudbeast (Jul 20, 2007)

A quicky on reducing cortisol from the t-nation coach Christian thibaudeau:

The keys are:

- good sleeping habits

- carbs only post-workout

- eating alkaline foods with every meal (green veggies and almonds are good choices)

- low dose of glycine (2-5g) with every meal

- Phosphatidylserine post-workout (400-800mg) and in the evening.

- cut out all stimulants

- try to train earlier in the day to avoid an evening cortisol spike


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## stone14 (Mar 24, 2005)

hackskii said:


> First of all I would love to see that study on the 100mg of test with either clomid or tore,.............


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)




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## stone14 (Mar 24, 2005)




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## stone14 (Mar 24, 2005)




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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)




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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

did'nt Redman say that if you use torm at 40mg a day you could use 100mg a week with no effect on the HPTA but without the Torm it is 25mg a week


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## stone14 (Mar 24, 2005)

Pscarb said:


> did'nt Redman say that if you use torm at 40mg a day you could use 100mg a week with no effect on the HPTA but without the Torm it is 25mg a week


yes i think he did, or he said you can use clomid instead at 100mg ed and as you taper down your test you also taper down your clomid. to have zero supression of the hpta.

without torm or clomid you can only use 25mg test ew ew to have no effect on the hpta.

here is the two links to his taper thread on 2 dif forums:

http://www.canadianjuicemonsters.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=21512

http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=1134619


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

I myself would not do a cycle without clomid and HCG in there somewhere.


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## stone14 (Mar 24, 2005)

i think i will give it ago when i do my nxt cycle i will run a 10week "on" followed buy a 6-8week cruise and then another 10weeks "on".t then waiting/statis taper.

ie

1-4 100mg drol ed

1-10 500mg sust e ew

1-10 400mg deca ew

11-18 100mg test e ew

11-18 100mg clomid ed

1-4dbol

19-29 750mg test e ew

1-29 400mg mast e ew

25-29 50mg inj winny eod

waiting period:

30-36 100mg test e

30-36 100mg clomid ed

test e taper: (clomid taper the same doses ed)

80/80/60/60/40/40/30/30/20/20

* will run hcg during cycle according to testis size. and definaltly run it at end of cycle to get testis to full size before the w/s taper starts.

* will run prov 50mg ed all way through recovery period.

* also will keep hcg/ nolv/ clomid to hand after this taper is over just incase i feel i need to resort to the traditional pct method, since i havent tapered like this before and not heard of many ppls results from it. on paper it looks ideal but it could be aload of bollocks when put into practice lol.

will post a journal when my cycle starts prob not till summer tho


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

I see some serious flaws in the timing of the clomid.

You are using the clomid as some kind of aid here correct?

750mg of enanthate would take about 3 weeks to clear, and probably longer.

The clomid wont be effective for 3 weeks after the shot.

Not only that but the deca and susta have a very long ester in there and it could take a month to clear from that one.

Again, clomid wont be effective here.


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## stone14 (Mar 24, 2005)

hackskii said:


> I see some serious flaws in the timing of the clomid.
> 
> You are using the clomid as some kind of aid here correct?
> 
> ...


ah right didnt think of that, so prob best to leave the clomid out of the cruise


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

stone14 said:


> ah right didnt think of that, so prob best to leave the clomid out of the cruise


Well, it would not hurt for the cruise, but the time the cycle wears off, that would be week 14 to 18 and you can run that for 4 weeks, that should be fine.

And from 33 to 36 you can run the clomid.

Not sure really how much stimulation you would get from that but I guess it is possible.


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## Mars (Aug 25, 2007)

hackskii said:


> I see some serious flaws in the timing of the clomid.
> 
> You are using the clomid as some kind of aid here correct?
> 
> ...


Why? i'm looking to learn here mate. Clomid will have the same effect on the body whether you have exogenous test in your body or not right?

Why do we need to wait till our test levels have dropped so far below normal before we can start therapy, why wouldn't it be more beneficial to start these drugs earlier, after all, many guys are using serms or ai's on cycle anyway.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

mars1960 said:


> Why? i'm looking to learn here mate. Clomid will have the same effect on the body whether you have exogenous test in your body or not right?
> 
> Why do we need to wait till our test levels have dropped so far below normal before we can start therapy, why wouldn't it be more beneficial to start these drugs earlier, after all, many guys are using serms or ai's on cycle anyway.


If androgens are too high, blocking all estrogen would not tell the hypothalamus to send GnRH to the pituitary.

If it is suggested as you say, then taking clomid during a cycle would accomplish recovery during the cycle...........This will never happen, and I can tell you that only HCG does this. And to that effect only on the testicles, and not the other part HP*A.

HCG can work during a cycle and should be considered.

But with high androgen use, clomid is worthless during a cycle, the body is way smarter than that.

I have heard some guys talking about clomid keeping their balls but that is silly.

After all, leydig cells only comprise about 10% of the mass of the nuts.

Even if stimulation from clomid was there, atrophied nuts just dont respond to endogenous LH production with anything that is worth mentioning.

When androgens drop to a level where they dont exert negative feedback on the HPTA, then clomid will work its magic.

Short story.

If androgenic expression exceeds estrogenic supression, recovery won't happen.


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## bobgenie (Jul 25, 2008)

This is very interesting reading. I've been looking at Dr Crisler's TRT recommendations from the states who proscribes (not in all cases, but many) something along the lines of 120 mg Test E E3D, 250 iu HCG E3D (taken day before Test E), and .25 mg Arimidex E3D. HCG to maintain testes and the AI to control E2. Many guys start just using HCG which appears to raise test levels alone so I have read.

I mentioned using Torimefene but was told that a SERM was not ideal in this case.

Obviously you must adjust according to blood work.

I have started this recently. Will be going onto an AI soon to replace the Tore. I am using Test E at 125 mg E3D don't get any spikes from what i feel but have been told using long ester 'may' raise estradiol if I don't pin it fairly often. I'm not a scientist by any stretch so have to try it out and see how it goes.

I'm also using CJC and GHRP6 for maybe 6 month cycle then change to GH 16 iu weekly for another 6 months to make comparisons.

I'd be interested in anyone's experience along these lines too.

Cheers


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

I have followed Dr. John's work alot, for years actually.

Where is he now?

Anyway, typical TRT dose is around 100mg of cypionate a week, Dr. John has his guys do 250iu to 350iu day of shot (due to the shot not being up to speed yet), and days 6 and 7 with HCG, as the androgens drop from the shot.

I dont think he has every perscribed 240mg of test E every 6 days, that is not TRT, that is a cycle, and that would equal out to 280mg a week.

Not to mention Testosterone enanthate is not perscribed in the States, which is where is practices his medicine.

Now if he was suggesting this for a cycle then that is another thing.

I do agree using an AI during, and a SERM for PCT.


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## bobgenie (Jul 25, 2008)

hackskii said:


> I have followed Dr. John's work alot, for years actually.
> 
> Where is he now?
> 
> ...


he's still around on a few sites but been banned from a few too. Don't know why but assume he fell out with a few along the way.

I did say 'along the lines of Dr Crisler'  TRT is a much bigger deal in the states as you most likely know better than me. You're right of course, 100 mg per week is favoured but many endos seem to be proscribing up to 250 mg per week currently. In addition I see Test E mentioned equally as often as Test Cyp so wonder if it's being imported from Mexico 

I made an error in typing though and am taking 100 mg E3D. I want to be in the upper range but do you think this might be too much for an extended cycle? Maybe I'll drop to 50 mg E3D and go SC too.

Thanks for your help it much appreciated.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

No problem mate, those doctors can be found at the life extention clinics in Florida, Las Vegas, and Palm Springs.

Many of them are well known, they offer really the upper end of base levels, they perscribe GH and I know a rich guy that visits his doctor twice a month for a tuneup.

He basicly will give the guy what ever he asks for.

But, a reputable doctor like Dr. John, Dr. SHippen and others wont even go there, they will put you at the upper end, but nothing like some of the other pay for steroid doctors.

I even had an account years ago with Florida Rejuvination Center in Florida.

They were huge, brought a van to your house, did blood, had docs on hand, and they sold you anything you wanted.

Never heard of winstrol being perscribed for TRT......lol

Short story long, the big bust that happened just over a year ago in the states got that outfit.

Plus for pharma grade gear it was more expensive than black market.

I am glad they got shut down, they had tons of clients in professional sports.

Dr. John (swale), gets banned from many boards, most likely it is because he is so qualified to talk about steroids using them himself and on many men, anyone that disagrees with him he goes nuts.

He really can be a bit short with people.

I used to follow him around from site to site, he would join, I would find him, he gets banned, then I have to go look for him again.

He really didnt like to answer PM's.

When my brother crashed harder than anyone I ever saw ever, my bro got in touch with Swale.

He basicly would not give my brother any information without concultation fees and other stuff.

Ironicly this is when my bro joined this board and so did I. After that I made it my passion to unserstand PCT, not just how, but why.

He can keep to his paid clients, which by the way are told that if any information comes out of their mouths about him, he will have to find another doctor.

Not only do you have to pay for the information, you cant pass it along.

That isnt right due to the fact that you paid for that information.

He is a good guy and really sharp though, I have massive respect for him.


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## thevoice (May 10, 2007)

I wish we in the UK had the doctors who specilize in TRT and what not, we have a couple on harly street in london but because its just them they charge the earth. If I lived in the states I would be right round Dr Johns for treatment as my levels are low-med and i am not the man i once was test wise.


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## Prodiver (Nov 14, 2008)

There are plenty of endos in the UK who are sympathetic to TRT. Some do private work.

Best way to go is NHS, but being what it is, you must demand a referral from your GP - which is usually no problem.

Knowing I'm a big bodybuilder my endo put me well above the normal upper range...


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## thevoice (May 10, 2007)

thats good to hear Prodiver, would you mind telling us how much you are being perscribed? and did they build up to that dose, did he/she know you had used test before?


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## tony1401 (Mar 8, 2008)

redman said:


> Thanks for the imput guys.
> 
> I have now made my mind up.
> 
> ...


looking at all that sends my brain in a spin,

is there a simpler way to bast and cruise?


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

I hear you, but I was on TRT, the cream and it was applied twice a day.

Felt great in the beginning, then poo poo 10 months later.

Plus putting that stuff on was a freaking hastle, it stained my clothes, it took forever to rub in, and I didnt actually feel any better than not being on it.

I think they are using some testosterone-undeconate now for TRT, you only have to go in like every 6 months or so for a shot..........That sounds sooo cool.

No spikes or declines, just nice steady T levels.

I suspect my levels to be on the lower end, but I do feel good, and I still can have sex.....lol.................haaaa haaaa.................All is good...


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

tony1401 said:


> looking at all that sends my brain in a spin,
> 
> is there a simpler way to bast and cruise?


Yep, that would be TRT............lol

They give you shots, then you give yourself shots for 6 to 12 weeks, then come off and let then keep giving you TRT.


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## Prodiver (Nov 14, 2008)

thevoice said:


> thats good to hear Prodiver, would you mind telling us how much you are being perscribed? and did they build up to that dose, did he/she know you had used test before?


My endo inserted pellets at first (6 originally - worked OK, 10 were better and then I had about 15 but they tended to come out!) - so finally 1 x Sus 250 per week. He knew I'd used gear - he was fine about it. My doc checks my bloods occasionally. On 1 x Sus 250 per week my BP is normal, my bloods come up OK, I feel fine and permanently horny...


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## thevoice (May 10, 2007)

Prodiver said:


> My endo inserted pellets at first (6 originally - worked OK, 10 were better and then I had about 15 but they tended to come out!) - so finally 1 x Sus 250 per week. He knew I'd used gear - he was fine about it. My doc checks my bloods occasionally. On 1 x Sus 250 per week my BP is normal, my bloods come up OK, I feel fine and permanently horny...


Thats excellent Prodiver, sounds like you have an endo who is willing to treat you and adjust if needed rarther than just give you a packet of gel to apply once a day. Out of interest the 1 x 250 sus per week do you have any numbers of where it puts you test wise e.g. 1200 ng/dl etc.


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## Prodiver (Nov 14, 2008)

thevoice said:


> Thats excellent Prodiver, sounds like you have an endo who is willing to treat you and adjust if needed rarther than just give you a packet of gel to apply once a day. Out of interest the 1 x 250 sus per week do you have any numbers of where it puts you test wise e.g. 1200 ng/dl etc.


Well I haven't had a test since 2007 and I can't find my last results but the "normal" UK spread found is 7 - 27 (mmols/dcl) IIRC and I think my endo was happy when I was about 33 - 35 ( I had been upper 30s at times) - seeing as men today have a test level about 20% lower than 40 years ago! 

Actually it's the FREE test level that counts and I can't recall what mine was - but I'm buzzing!


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Free will be up with 250mg a week.

If I had an endo that would put me on 200 to 250, I would go on in a hot second, perhaps a half a tab twice a week of adex, and bingo, young feeling all over again.

I do suspect I am at the lower end but hell, gear jacks my BP alot.

I cant do the doses I used to and even thouse were tame by most peoples standards.


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## thevoice (May 10, 2007)

Prodiver said:


> Well I haven't had a test since 2007 and I can't find my last results but the "normal" UK spread found is 7 - 27 (mmols/dcl) IIRC and I think my endo was happy when I was about 33 - 35 ( I had been upper 30s at times) - seeing as men today have a test level about 20% lower than 40 years ago!
> 
> Actually it's the FREE test level that counts and I can't recall what mine was - but I'm buzzing!


thanks mate for your replys and infomation :thumb:


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## stone14 (Mar 24, 2005)

hackskii said:


> Yep, that would be TRT............lol
> 
> They give you shots, then you give yourself shots for 6 to 12 weeks, then come off and let then keep giving you TRT.


do they not do blood tests? or do you just time it so your off cycle when they do?


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## stone14 (Mar 24, 2005)

prodviver did you say your endo was nhs or prvt?


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

stone14 said:


> do they not do blood tests? or do you just time it so your off cycle when they do?


Yah they always draw blood, to see where your serum levels of T are, generally they will put you on the absolute lowest dose they can get away with.

Somthing to do with the stigma of TRT and steroid use.

For instance, androgel comes in 5mg, 7.5mg, and 10mg.

My buddy which is about 6'5" and probably 260 pounds was put on 5mg.

He did feel better but they did his bloods and they were still on the low side, so he asked him if he could bump it up some and the doc raised it to 7.5.

I told my buddy to go back to the doctor, and say this: "I am feeling better, just not 100% better, and my libido is not what it used to be, what can I do?"

Doc put him on 10mg (2 packs a day of 5mg), now he is getting stronger and he feels great, with morning wood every morning.

Plus he has some d-bol that he has been taking and I swear that dude is getting pretty damn strong.

Last I saw him he looked much better and was like alive or something.

I think he is 53.

I think he is upsetting his wife as he wants sex more than she is willing to put out.....lol:thumb:


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## Prodiver (Nov 14, 2008)

stone14 said:


> prodviver did you say your endo was nhs or prvt?


Both. He's in London. He's very expensive - so are the regular follow ups. He sees me on the NHS


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