# newbie with Prolactinoma, problems after 6 OXO



## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

Hi everybody I was just wondering if you could help me?<o>

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I'm a 26 years old male. Last year I was diagnosed with a Pituitary tumour. It was a Prolactin secreting tumour. Normal male levels of Prolactin are around < 500 mul an expectant mother's level is around 1500 my initial level was 33,000!<o></o>

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Without me knowing it the Prolactin had been suppressing my testosterone for years, it caused Gyno (which I had surgically removed,) weight gain (ballooned to 17 half stone), severe headaches, and zero sex drive.<o></o>

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When I had my Testosterone levels first checked they were 4 mnol which I was told is very very low!<o></o>

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My endocrinologist started me on Dostinex ans over the year my Prolactin rapidly went down. My last blood work was good and my Prolactin was down to 156 Mul which is well within the normal range, my testosterone levels went up to 13.9 mnol, my libido came back with full force I regularly started getting morning erections. This was great as it was a good indicator that my endocrine was responding.<o></o>

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Last month I thought I would try and see if I could move things along for my next blood test. I found a study on the effectiveness of Clomid on men with Prolactinomas (http://www.pslgroup.com/dg/25c3fa.htm)<o></o>

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Buying prescription drugs I thought was a bit over kill so I looked for an alternative, I proceeded to buy 2 bottles of 6 oxo. One of the worst decisions I have ever made!! within days my testicles felt bigger and my libido was high! However my nipples started to get itchy and sore which scarred the crap out of me as I had gyno before and did not want it again! Over the next week I tapered my dosage down and ceased taking them.<o>

</o> After that my libido hit rock bottom! My testicle size seemed to diminish very quickly. I panicked and bought some (Genox) Nolvadex and started taking 20 mg a day been taking for about 1 week and so far I feel nothing, libido is still nil. I feel like kicking myself! I wish I could turn back time and not have taken it, but what's done is done I suppose.

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My endo is very dismissive and just says my levels will come back on there own, im just so worried that I have to wait another 6 months before my body recovers.<o></o>

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I have read a number of studies on the effectiveness of using HCG on men with Hypogonadism. I know this is not directly related to bodybuilding, but I know many of you guys know your stuff; my main worry is just being dismissed by my endo for another 6 months.<o></o>

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Any help would be much appreciated?

Thanks for listening to my ramblings


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## Truewarrior1 (Jan 27, 2005)

you could use hcg to help recover if you feel your balls are shrunken, there are many ways to run it , hackskii is the man on that account. or you could use something called testolactone (teslac) which acts like hcg AND supresses your estrogen. but hcg on its own will cause a raise in estrogen so you'd want to use some nolva alongside it.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

I am a little confused.

For clearity, did you drop the dostinex and go with the 6 OXO?

This does not make much sense to me, because for the most part men and women produce the same hormones in varying levels.

Prolactin is highest among men just after an orgasim.

Also read playing with your nipples can raise prolactin.

Prolactin for a women is a hormone that tells the breasts to manufacture milk.

If you swapped the dostinex (prolactin antagonist) which basicly lowers prolactin levels.

Using 6 OXO is an over the counter estrogen blocker and would do absolutly nothing for lowering prolactin.

Now, did you take them together?

If you were feeling good and had morning wood why did you try the anti-estrogen?

Are you on dostinex now.

Did they take care of that pituitary tumor?

If you still have the tumor and still are having high prolactin then you will be on cabaser/dostinex for life. Cabaser is far cheaper with less sides too.

If it was me, id go get some blood work.

Also there is a number of estrogen blocking drugs.

Clomid and nolvadex block estrogen at the receptor sites, where as something like arimidex, femara, block estrogen at the manufacture level.

Yes HCG will signal the balls to go back to work, I am assuming you are low LH and FSH right?

If you dont get the answers here I guarantee I can send you to a site that will answer this question.

For male health, best site on the web.

But I would like to have you answer those questions.

I can probably send you in the right direction.


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

yes prolactin is largerly a female hormone and the only known function in men is after ejaculation as a sort of shut off switch. Prolactin is a hormone which is regulated by dopamine, Dostinex is a dopamine agonist so it is very effective at suppressing prolactin, they dont know why men develop this condition but chest truama etc can infulence things. The endo said after 2 years they will do another mri to determine wether the tumour has shrunk, if so they would try tappering me off to see how i react. the tumour is usually relational to prolactin blood levels so they have a good idea that things are good. i will go to the doctors tomorrow and get my: Prolactin, Testosterone, LH, FSH, Estrodial checked.

I am fine on Dostinex, never had any side effects from it, and it's free on the NHS so i can't complain.

I know it sds sick but i did actually lactate! After my gyno surgery it never happend again so forgot about it (Probably more embarresment than anything)

I was thinking there could have maybe some Estrogen rebound from the 6 oxo thats why i got Nolvadex but that does not seem to be helping.

My LH levels were 2.6 mul in my last blood work. I know i feel stupid now in taking 6 oxo but i really saw no reports of any of the side effects i seemed to have got, all i wanted to do was get my T back up to normal levels as i felt very hormonal all the time.

Any help would be appreciated? Looking into Teslac at the momement that TW suggested migh help.

Thanks for your time!


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## Truewarrior1 (Jan 27, 2005)

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/catteslac.htm

thats a good in depth write up of it. i'll be using it for my next pct although it wasnt easy to find!

please ask for your actual results and make a note of them and not just the doctors interpretation. that way you can post them and we can have a look at them.


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

yea i was just reading that article. looks quite impressive stuff!

I will definatly post up blood work when i get it back. Im bit of freak case but i believe that it is more of a hypogonadism issue now rather than a prolactin issue but a Blood test is the only real way to know for sure.

Im going to have a nightmare finding HCG if i decide to go down that route. my endo certainly won't be up for pescribing that either, she will probaly just chuck me on to TRT


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## simm (Dec 25, 2006)

I've got a pit tumor aswell and imo i would just take any medication prescribed and not 'SELF' prescribe..Trying to get your balls working properly may cause even more probs further along,as your endo might place you on gear/hrt after 6 months if nothings changed!


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Well Woodie, Simm has a point.

But that is typical for doctors to put guys on TRT after diagnosed with hypogonadism.

But, there is a way of getting the HPTA back to speed, and no doctor in the world would perscribe a protocol for that except for one, make that two.

Most endo's have no idea how to treat any type of steroid induced hypogonadism.

Their fix is TRT and that is not necessary the case.

I was put on TRT and I hated it.


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

I believe that my pituitary has a good chance of working correctly. from the conversation i had with the endo she did not sound to up for trying to kickstart my HPTA axis, she did not even mention it alternatives, she just said "lets see how you get on and if nothing has changed we can always administer T artifically" I don't believe that is the correct protocal and i will not be settled to have T injection until i know my that i have exhausted all other alternatives.

I have seen a great thread on another forum about a guy who was on HRT for years until he could not stand it anymore and decided to try and jump start his HPTA, he had great success and succeded in getting evertyhing working natrually. In his case he did a cycle of Clomid & Nolvadex. I have sourced some clomid and just waiting on delivery. I have just had my bood drawn a few days ago and i am going to run a cycle for the next 4 weeks i will then have a weeks off the cycle before my next blood test.

The cycle i have planned so far looks like this:

Week 1 Clomid -100mg nolva-20 eod

Week 2 Clomid -50mg nolva-10 eod

Week 3 Clomid -25mg nolva-5 eod

week 4 Clomid -25mg nolva-5 eod

This may seem reckless to some but i feel its got a good chance of working. One good thing is it will have some good detailed bloodwork done around it


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Its not reckless.

It is reckless to let you sit and wait it out with low test levels, in my mind that is borderline criminal.

If it was me, just me mind you.

I would do HCG, clomid and nolvadex.

You need a source for the HCG, send me a pm and I will give you one.

No sense in suffering.

Endo's dont jumpstart the HPTA, most sit and wait to see what happens.


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

Got that source thanks Hackskii.

To be honest when i mentioned the word "Injections" to the misses she flipped! lol but if it takes HCG then so be it 

Feeling like i did was terrible! ihave suffered for years with a soft fat body no matter how much exercise and diet i did, i balloned to 245lbs by the time i was 16. I eventually went on a very low calorie diet when i was 18 and lost 9olbs but still had flabby soft skin with pear shaped hips and horrible gynomastia, the NHS agreed to perfomed surgery as they said i was an exeptional case. I just cant believe they did not test for Prolactin then and there as Gyno is probably one of the number tell tale signs of a prolactinoma.

I looked very young for my age with no facial hair. In my mind i felt i had a lot of potential to be clever and sharp but problems relating to the disrupted cognitive abilites and poor memory i attribute to being starved of Testosterone for so long made me quite and reclusive.

Then i discovered my tumour!! i went to my doctor and complained of ED and asked for my testosterone to be tested, he was reluctant but agreed. I also asked him to add Prolactin to the test which he got really grumpy about thinking that i was some hypocondrac. Lucky i did a!!

Anyway after 2 tablets of dostinex my libido went through the roof to point i could not concentrate on anything other than sex (i remeber i used to sit at my fiancee's mums house, while they was all chatting i was browing porn! lol)

After about 4 months i started to notice a tingling in my testicles and facial and body hair started sprouting all over the place. My mind was feeling sharp and i started to interact and become more confidant around collueges and friends.

I felt great and thought if i feel like this now how am i going to feel like when my T is at full prodcution!

My fiancee started complaining that i constantly wanted sex and she was not used to me being like that and was finding it hard to keep up with me, this started to put a bit of a strain on us, i eventually carmed down to once a day and was pretty content.

Then i took 6oxo! and my libido is 0

Soz for rambling along but you see just getting back to being a normal male would mean the world to me, i feel i have been deprived. If i had taken that doctors advice and not had the prolactin checked then i would still be in a world of misery!

I question everything now even if that includes advice by a so called profesional.

god think i need a lie down now!


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Well, in that mens health forum i sent you a link to I see guys like your condition alot.

Bro, low test levels can be a night mare, I have seen it first hand and also read alot about it.

Many endo's, not all are clueless.

Nothing wrong with taking charge of your health, learning about the condition YOU have, it is smart actually.

What ever you decide i am positive it will be a good decision.


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

well got some of my results back:

Prolactin 198 mul < Good news shows Dostinex is doing it's stuff!

LH 2.4 < seems to be consitent with previous values, event thou i have been taking 20 mg of Nolvadex each day

FSH 2.0 < Again consistent with previous blood values.

estradiol 80 < The doppy receponist said she did not know what this was measured in but it was declared normal by the hospital.

I'm still waiting on my T levels, they should be ready by the end of week.

Clomid still has not turned up :-(, hopefully tmoz


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

Just phoned the doctors again and the found out th Estradiol was measured as 80 pmol/l


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

cwoody123 said:


> Just phoned the doctors again and the found out th Estradiol was measured as 80 pmol/l


What is the refrence range?

Also clomid and nolva can skew test results for estrogen.


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

yea i was just thinking that! i am going to need to make sure i follow up when all AI are out of my system to make sure its not high at regular basal.

Does anybody know the half life of Clomid & Nolva?

I really could not tell ya what the reference range was but they said it was within the noramal range.

I will try to find out ranges when i ring for my T results later this week.

Is estradiol the main estrogen to worry about?

Thanks for your time ;-)


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## DannyBoy81 (Jun 13, 2006)

I think the half-life on clomid is as long as 5 days, but don't quote me on that..... !


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Yes estradiol (E2) is the main estrogen, strongest one too.

PCgammer talkes about this and erectile problems. Seems he nailed his estrogen and has a range for a sweet spot.

Very very sharp dude.

I think nolva is like 5 days or something, but I do believe it can skew tests for weeks.

Id wait 5-6 weeks after last tab to test again.

That will reflect a better picture of what is going on.


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

*Day 1*

Popped my first 50mg of Clomid this morning, will do another 50mg before bed with 20 mg nolva.

My teticles now seem to be hanging around my ankles already, is this normal! lol Only joking!

Obviously nothing to report yet but will keep you posted.

I was wondering if anyone has experianced what i would decribe as 'brain fog' wilst having low testosterone levels?

Hackskii got me thinking about potential side effects that might be a result of Dostinex, when i was taking it once a week my mind seemed sharper then even thou T was low. Im currently taking 2 x 05.mg tablets a week.

any ideas?


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

cwoody123 said:


> *Day 1*
> 
> Popped my first 50mg of Clomid this morning, will do another 50mg before bed with 20 mg nolva.
> 
> ...


I think Dostinex (Cabergoline/Cabaser) is .5mg and is taken twice a week due to its long half life.

That should be fine but then again, I would still take blood to determine if prolactin was in refrence range along with estrogen and testosterone.

Sounds good tho.

One little side you will notice with the clomid and I really notice this is the copious amount of ejaculation fluid, man it has to be like 4 times more.

I would not be surprised if porn stars use this. 

Brain fog and low test levels, along with libido and elivated cholesterol, less energy, lower lean muscle, higher belly fat, low test levels are not good.

In fact so if erectile disfunction is a result of low testosterone levels, these men usually die within 20 years of this.

My poor buddy (44 years old) just got his blood work back. He was way bummed, seems he has been having problems with libido.

I asked him if he gets morning wood, he said never.

I suggested Tbomb to test things out (testosterone booster), the very next day he got morning wood.

After the Tbomb, I suggested he take blood to determine testosterone levels. Even the doc said "why?". I knew his General Practitioner doctor was gonna say that, but he insisted and has low T levels.

He was 193 and is supposed to be between 241-827, boy was he a mess after he found out.

I told him to immediatly go to an endocrinologist(sp) and he scheduled an appointment.

What a bummer, this dude would never touch a steroid in his life now he might have to go on test for life.


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

> I think Dostinex (Cabergoline/Cabaser) is .5mg and is taken twice a week due to its long half life.
> 
> That should be fine but then again, I would still take blood to determine if prolactin was in refrence range along with estrogen and testosterone.


Well to start my Prolactin was 33,000 mul i was perscribed 1 x 0.5mg per week, this managed to bring my prolactin down too 984 mul over a period of 9 months. My current prolactin level is 198 mul (9.9ng/ml) so that seems ok, i think i could maybe lower my dosage of dostinex back down to half a 0.5 tablet twice a week, but will discuss that more with endo when i see her.



> One little side you will notice with the clomid and I really notice this is the copious amount of ejaculation fluid, man it has to be like 4 times more.
> 
> I would not be surprised if porn stars use this.


God that coupled with the fact i have had no libido and not felt to need to Knock one out! is going to be a messy messy business for my other half lol



> What a bummer, this dude would never touch a steroid in his life now he might have to go on test for life.


I'm really glad i have found my problem out whilst i am still fairly young as i won't go through life wandering what the hell is going on. It's scares the crap out me me to think that i would have to have TRT for the rest of my life.

On a side note when you have TRT do they teach you to inject your self or do you have to go and have injections at a surgery/hospital?


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

They make you come in to the office unless you are using the creams, jell's, patches.

But there are some that use pellets that last for like up to 6 months.


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

Hmm pellets don't sound to bad, i suppose thats a bit like the female cotraceptive. O well hopefully i won't need any of it if my balls fire up!!


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

*Day 2*

I have nothing to report really other than feeling pretty drowsy and a bit of acne on my chin. Balls are each about the size of a meduim sized plum and hard. Not sure you guys needed to hear that but i said it anyway lol


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

I wish my balls were that big


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

I just got my Total T results back and they are 12.6 nmol (about 365) My last T levels come in at 13.9 (400) Hosptials REF range is (10-38)

There are a few varibles that might effect my T results im thinking:

Low calorie diet = I have been dieting for 2 and a half weeks. I have lost 5lbs so far. I suppose i should have mentioned this before but i did not really know the effect of diet on androgens until i read a study today.

6 oxo Rebound = This is where it all started going wrong, no doubt it have had a massive effect on my body!


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

I think generally a low cal diet can disrupt things to a certain degree, but also, low fat, low cholesterol diets, not enought zinc, all play a part here, hell even vitamin E plays a part.

240 is on the low end and id be happy with 365, 400 is about in the middle.


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

About 500-600 will suit me ;-)

I take 30mg of zinc a day, will ad some more saturated fats i think.

will also look into Vitamin E.

My mate at work got his levels checked and he was 16 nmol (462) so i have that too beat!


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

*Day 3*

yesterday afternoon i started to think naughty thoughts and by the time i got home my libido was in full flow.

Hackskii i can confirm the Clomid/Nolvadex ejaculation quantity theory lol

Today when i woke up i had morning wood for the first time since the ceasing 6oxo.

No side effects really, maybe get a little bit dizzy when i close my eyes when i go to sleep, but other than that i feel Tip-Top


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Morning wood is always a good thing.

Yah, looking at porn actually raises LH in the body.

I also hear sun tanning elevates test levels.

You could go up to 50mg a day on the zinc if you really wanted to.

take the zinc and Magnesium just before bed.

A good preperation is ZMA


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

*Day 4*

yea i heard that porn can raise LH but i can't find any studies with numbers. Last night i found my brain was responding to even the remotist sexual stimulie on tv.

Sex is good at the moment. Would have gone twice last night if i was allowed lol

Everything feels fine at the moment, I can't say i have experianced any visual problems, maybe a slight aching/Tingling in nuts every now again but nothing major. O yea and my joints seem to click a bit more.

Gym was a bit of a toughy last night, i didnt seem to have any energy in my lifts. i think is largerly due to my diet to be honest, i might start increasing my cals and add some cardio.


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

*Day 5*

When i got home from work i felt so tired that i feel asleep for hours. Today im feeling a little unoptomistic that this cycle is working for me, maybe im just expecting a bit to much in 5 days.

Balls feel hard and hang heavy, not increased in size much thou. Libido is not that great again. I was looking into why some people experiance libido issues, from what i read it can be caused because Clomid can raise SHBG significantly. Is there any effective drugs which can lower SHBG?

thaanks in advance


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

A couple of copy and past's, I typed something up some time ago but I cant remember nor find it.

taken from mass monsterz :

Not many options when it comes to trying to lower SHBG levels

Supplements that lower SHBG:

-Proviron

-GH

-Avena Sativa Extract/Green oat that contains Avenacosidas-supposedly there is none of this product out on the market that shows that it works.

-Carao Extract-Theory only-has not been proven yet

-Utica Dioca aka Stinging Nettles

-Muira Puama

I think anything that lowers estrogen will lower SHBG, including DHT.

But you are on low dose nolva so I really would not worry too much about it.


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

*Day 6*

I went for a run last night, I managed to run for 40 mins no problem, this i don't think is too bad considering i have not run for months.

Again i may be a little hasty, but i don't really feel much going on apart from being short temperd. Nuts seem to be the same size. Sexual function is there but desire is not, this kind of makes sex feel mechanical and not so enjoyable. Also Semen quantity seems to be a lot less at the moment.

This has got me thinking wether my Pituitary is truly damaged and can only respond with a certain amount of LH in response to GNRH. This would be consistent with my past LH bloodwork which has never topped 2.4. Even my last test results were 2.4 depite being on a low dose of nolvadex the week prior to the blood test.

I suppose the only true way to tell is to wait for the blood test on the 21st March. I understand there are so many other varibles in play but just throught i would outlet my feelings a little 

If i have to go on to TRT then so be it, but i am going to exhuast all other potential avenus first!


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

hackskii said:


> A couple <layer id="google-toolbar-hilite-53" style="background-color: Chartreuse; color: black;">of</layer> copy and past's, I typed something up some time ago but I cant remember nor find it.
> 
> taken from mass monsterz :
> 
> ...


I am also taking Clomid (100mg) eod. I have read that Clomid can cause a rise SHBG also. E2 is up there <layer id="google-toolbar-hilite-80" style="background-color: Cyan; color: black;">on</layer> my warning list at <layer id="google-toolbar-hilite-2" style="background-color: Cyan; color: black;">the</layer> moment!

Over <layer id="google-toolbar-hilite-3" style="background-color: Cyan; color: black;">the</layer> last year i have had trouble emptying my bladder and get <layer id="google-toolbar-hilite-4" style="background-color: Cyan; color: black;">the</layer> occasional dribble after urination. <layer id="google-toolbar-hilite-5" style="background-color: Cyan; color: black;">The</layer> doctor had said it might be a prostate problem, he has arranged for me to have a urine flow test, from looking into E2 latley i found it significantly increases <layer id="google-toolbar-hilite-6" style="background-color: Cyan; color: black;">the</layer> size <layer id="google-toolbar-hilite-55" style="background-color: Chartreuse; color: black;">of</layer> <layer id="google-toolbar-hilite-7" style="background-color: Cyan; color: black;">the</layer> prostate and even increase the likleyhood of a prolactinoma in men!

When i asked my Endo wether my hormones would have anything to do with my prostate, she said "None at all" She has only tested my estrogen levels once an that was at the begining when T was very low! hence i would have a lower estrodial levels.

Do certain men have more prevelance for producing excessive E2 than others or is it something i should not be worrying about?

Thanks for all you help so far! ;-)


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Seriously one thing that helped my prostate and flow was fish oils.

It didnt click at first but inflammation comes in many colors.

Good thing is fish oils due to their high amounts of Omega 3 seem to lower inflammation in the body.

Sounds strange but it has long been know the relationship of Omega 3 and prostaglandins 1 and 3 (PG1, PG3), where as inflammation is associated to arachidonic acid (AA) and PG 2 which is prostaglandin #2.

So, beings that the prostate has the highest concintration of prostaglandins in the mans body, this seemed to make sense when I was putting two plus two together.

When I first started taking Fish oils @ 12 a day, after about a few months one day I was taking a pee and noticed I had more volume and flow.

I was like what the hell, I dont remember peeing this hard in a long time.

Kept taking the fish oils and urination was defo stronger and harder.

One day on the net I was reading about prostaglandins and POW, there it was right in front of me.

Might be worth a try as BPH and or prostate cancer will happen (to a certain degree) to every man if he gets old enough.

One more thing here, zinc is a natural aromatase inhibitor, too much zinc is bad tho.

So, around 50 mg of zinc a day seem to be just fine, that is what I take every day.

Now get this, zinc has the highest concintrations in the eyes and prostate.

Macular degeneration seems to have some association in zinc deficiencies.

The prostate issues now seem to be comming from estrogen or the test to estrogen ratio.

So, it makes great sense to me to supplement zinc in your diet.

Oh, zinc deficiencies also are associated with lower test levels. Not sure if that has to do with zinc being a natural aromatase inhibitor or its involvement in test production, I am not sure but I know it is associated.

Id get the diet squared, Id do resistance training, id keep the stress low and dont beat yourself up, id wake up every day and think how wonderfull it is to be alive with all of your arms and legs, give your family or whom ever a kiss and tell them you love them.

I know that sounds corney but, many times we think certain things, we ourselves end up kind of making them happen.

Being happy is a give that nobody can take from you and this in itself helps for good health.

Chin up bro, keep taking the meds, get your blood done, read up, you will get throught this one way or another.

I agree on TRT, not unless you have to, exhaust all your resources first.

But also remember controlling estrogen using diet and lifestyle will have a big impact on your E2.

Certain drugs, alcohol, recreational drugs all play a part in estrogen, including belly fat.


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

Very interesting!! I used to take Omega 3's about 8x 1000mg capsules a day, i found it improved my cognitive abilites and i seemed sharper and more focused (Come to think of it i don't know why i ever stopped taking them!) I will be buying myself a big tub tonight along with some more Zinc and see how it goes. I think the pressure has built up over the last couple of months to the point where i am fustrated. you are right i have not been thinking about what i got and how lucky i am, i have just been feeling sorry for myself and my poor fiancee has been taking the brunt of it. i am honestly going to try an appreciate what i have got and just focus possitivly on my goals from now on!!

Top advice Hackskii! i think you would make a great shrink! lol

*Day 7*

*
*I thought i would make a change to how i take my Clomid + Nolvadex i normally take complete dose eod, i thought i would do 50-clomid 10mg-nolva at 9pm and the same when i wake up in the morniing, i don't know if it is me but i feel better for it, there is more tingling going on done there than before thats for sure. Again i supose time will tell!

Facial hair is spreading around my face a bit more rather than being patchy, growth rate seems to have slowed and hair feels softer.

Got a few libido urges this morning which was nice  unfortantly the dentist put an end to that with giant needle and 3 fillings, my mouth is so numb im slobbering over my desk.

Cheers for the great advice, will be sure to keep you posted on the omega 3 and zinc sup.

All the best!


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

*Day 8*

Well i have been doing the Omega3 for the last 2 days and i feel really good, i feel carm and relaxed and my mind feels clear. Testicals seem to have increased a little. Clomid is still having no effect on my vision and i havent noticed any other side effects really apart from the lack of libido, I definatly think the SERMS having a suppressive effect on my LIbido. But function is there so im not complaining


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## megatron (Apr 21, 2004)

Good luck with your recovery process, with hackskii you are in good hands.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

It is the DHA in the fish oils that make your mind think clearer.

Fat loss is also possible here too......oh yah......

Labido issue probbly has something to do with the SERM's because they both act as an agonist and antagonist to estrogen in diffrent tissues. Meaning to some tissues it acts like an anti-estrogen and to others it acts like an estrogen.

Don't worry, you will be off of them in a little while just as soon as the testicles are primed and ready to obey your every command.


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

*Day 9*

Well for sure i feel much better, mood is good and mind is clear, this i proably more attribable to the Omega 3 than anything i think. Balls feel about the same size but are heavier and harder.

I have my doctor phoning me back today so i am going to try and swindle a blood test, i should then see what impact clomid/nolva is having.

I wish some one would develop a dispossable LH strip tester or cheap cost effective Testosterone measuring device, it's pretty complicated stuff thou so i suppose if they could do it they would already have done.

Any one want to go halves on a Radioimmuoassay machine 

"testsicals primed ready to obey every command" lol Lets hope so!


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Well, I can guage what is going on pretty weil in my body.

When my test levels come back, my skin goes from dry to oily and my forehead gets greasy.

I know that is sick but it was always greasy and is not when my levels are low.

Another good indicatior if test levels is morning wood.

Very good to get the ol hard ons during the night and morning, one of the best indicatiors.

Getting and maintaining an erection for sex is another good indicator.

Now the balls, I think most of the mass comes from the part of the balls that manufacture sperm. Test levels will return before sperm mobility happens.

*Here is a copy and paste from another article I wrote on steroids and sterility:*

FSH released from the pituitary binds to specific receptors

in another part of the testes called the Sertoli cells, which are

located in the seminiferous tubles, the structure that comprises about

80 to 90% of the mass in the testicles. By stimulating the production

of protein that binds androgens, FSH promotes a higher concentration

of testosterone in this region, which stimulates the maturation of

sperm cells (spermatogenesis). Each day from puberty to death, the

testes produce about 30 million new sperm.

As you can see size of testicles are not the best indicator of test levels.

Hell, it might be a better indicator of the quality of sperm, but I am only guessing and might be wrong but this is how I feel abou that.

My balls are not 100% full size but I totally feel fine and I do think my levels are within my normal range, but I am willing to bet getting a woman pregnant right now might be difficult (its ok I am old anyway).

My last cycle was around 3 months maybe less ago.

Sorry for the pointless ramblings.


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

> Well, I can guage what is going on pretty weil in my body.
> 
> When my test levels come back, my skin goes from dry to oily and my forehead gets greasy.
> 
> ...


I found my body was smelling more, not a horrible smell but a much more manly pungant smell. Morning errections have been sporadic with me, i had a semi this morning upon waking so its getting there.

Sex wise function seems to be there, but sensation & desire is not really that great.

I think ater reading the testical size info i will stop analizing the size of my nads all the time (maybe the occasional feel just to make sure there still there!) 

*Day 10*

well went to the doctors yesterday complaining about the delay in my Urine flow test coming through and that the symptoms seem to be worse. he did a urine swab test and detected a small amount of protein in my urine. He has prescribed me a months supply of Ciprofloxacin which is an antibiotic so hopefully that might help!

Mentioned about the blood test and he said i have just had one, he said come back in a couple of weeks to discuss it. Thats fair enough he does not know about the clomid/nolva so he probably thinks a hypocondriact!

Im cureently taking 50mg of clomid in the morning and 10mg of tomaxofin in the evening. Like i said i had a semi this morning so things are hopefully moving along a bit more. I found that my sperm quantity is pretty low (Maybe just me) I will be happy when i get of the clomid as i think as it is causing me to wake up in the night.

O yea has anyone noticed really vivid dreams whilst taking Zinc? It reminds me of the dreams i used to have as a kid!


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Yes, zinc does that to me and I sleep deeper.


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

*Day 11*

*
*Today i feel good, my mind feels clear. Nothing new to report really. Ive decided im not going to diet anymore as it makes me feel like crap, im going to to do maintinece calories for a couple of weeks until i finish clomid/tomaxofen, then going on a bulk. im also going to keep running as i quite enjoy it.

Still thinking that i maybe should have done the HCG, o well if my current protocol does not work i can always go down this route at a later stage. At least this way i can see if the damage is truly at the Pituitary level.


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

*Day 12*

*
*Not much to report really, libido still not there but im sure this will come back with time, i have decided that no matter what i do or how hard i diet my stubborn belly fat/skin is not going, so i have decided im going to have surgery to remove it. will be enquiring with the Suregeon who done my Gynomastia operation.

*
Day 13*

*
*I have also become quite interested in DIM not only for its Aniti-Estrogen benifits but also it's possitive effects on the Prostate, I have heard thats certain brands are better because they are absorbed better or something, any one else taken this? can you recommend a brand?

I have had morninig wood for the last couple of days again and had a spicy dream last night  so things are looking up. I also have swapped the 1 x Nolvadex for a clomid just to see if it is both SERMS or just Nolvadex that is suppressing my libido. I have not been sleeping well this week, i dont know wether this is due to my anti-biotics, SERMS or something else. Anyway not long to go now so we will soon see.

Thanks for listening


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

indole-3-carbinol

I think that is the one the dudes on meso recommend.

Ask them.


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

*Day 14*

Last night i got a good nights sleep for the first time in a week. i also feel pretty good. Libido was very high last night to the point of having 2 sessions ;-). I know i should not analize the size of my testicals but they do def feel bigger over the last few days, my penis also feels more fuller and erections are stronger, senasation is getting there also. i think the combination of eating maintence cals and not taking nolvadex is really helping! maybe its just that im at the 2 week mark.

I have 2 wks until my blood test so i will start tappering down my dossage from Tmoz.

lets just hope i can keep this up with out the SERMS.

Thanks for all your help! :smoke:


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## Breezey (Nov 29, 2006)

so have you come off nolvadex all together?


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

yes mate. i substituted my evening 10mg of nolvadex for 50mg of clomid. i know that Nolva is supposed to sensitize your leylig cells and pituitary where as Clomid desensitizes things but i seem to be doing good without it so far. i think these SERMS just affect people in different ways


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

If it was me, id run both.


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

ok maybe i run clomid until end of the week then run Nolvadex after that?


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

I would run them together.

I really like the synergy when used together, to me they work better.


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

*Day 15*

Still feeling good. Libido seems to be starting and stopping at the moment so Clomid might be having the same (More subtle) negative effect as what i experianced on Nolvadex.


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

*Day 16*

I have a sense of well being at the moment. I dont know if it is because im eating more or the (Hopefully) increased Testostereone i have. I have gone back on to the Nolvadex & clomid combo to see how i go again with that. Really thinking of running HCG but will wait until after blood test before i make any descions on that. Bit graphic but i mentioned a tingling sensation in my nuts sometimes, i have discovered this only occours after ejaculation a few hours before.

LoL don't know who that last comment will help but i said it anyway!

Thanks for the support ;-)


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

*Day 17*

*
*

*
*Still feeling ok. Libido still on and off. I Still am not sleeping properly, i wake up 3-4 times a night feeling really hot. Work-outs are good! all my weight seems to have gone up and i have more intensity. O yea i don't know if it just me but i seem to be getting a little anxious about nothing latley, has anyone else noticed this taking SERMS?


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

I dont notice that although It might very well be.

Try some melatonin about a couple of hours before bed, this helps alot.

Melatonin is a natural sleeping hormone that is produced at night time, also has some cancer preventing properties.


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

I have ordered the Melatonin. Last night i slept very well, i think it was because i took my clomid at 6pm instead of before bed. I feel good still, i few people at work said that they thought i have been cranky latley, i personally do not think i have been but.

I have got to go and see a Urologist next month. I have to pee in a measuring jug for 3 bloody days and record the amount of wee and water i drink. i then have to pee into a machine to check my flow, i can barley pee in front of people in the urinals let alone in front of a female nurse! :-s o well at least i will get answers.

Thanks for the advice so far Hackskii it has been highly appreciated ;-)


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## DannyBoy81 (Jun 13, 2006)

hackskii said:


> Try some melatonin about a couple of hours before bed, this helps alot.
> 
> Melatonin is a natural sleeping hormone that is produced at night time, also has some cancer preventing properties.


Just want to complemet you Scott on ur diversity of knowledge !!! :clap2:

I think your a great asset to the board....!


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

DannyBoy81 said:


> Just want to complemet you Scott on ur diversity of knowledge !!! :clap2:
> 
> I think your a great asset to the board....!


Thanks man


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

*Day 19/20*

*
*I have felt really good over the last few days. Been eating lots and traning hard and it seems to be paying off! Girlfriend said she has definatly noticed my chest and arms have got bigger. We have also had some good weather over here over the weekend so i think that helps 

My body and mind feels balanced. Sexual function is there/ morning wood every day for over a week. I just hope that i continue to feel like this once i tapper off the SERMS.

Prostate issue has easied slightly but is still there.


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

*Day 21*

Ok today is my first day of tappereing down, so i will consume half of my normal dose. Snapping these clomids in half is a bit of a pain in the ****! i have also noticed that they dissolve very quickly and if you dont swallow them fast they leave a foul taste in your mouth. i just hope my body can keep up. I Will be getting my blood drawn next week.


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

*Day 22*

I have still been restless nights sleep. i first attributed that to theSERMS but on thinking about it i realized that these symptoms occoured around the time i started taking Ciprofloxacin (Anti-biotics) sure enough upon looking into side effects these symptoms came up: nervousness, agitation, insomnia, anxiety, nightmares, and paranoia. If you remeber i was complaining of having anxiety. My doctor never told me i might experiance any of these side effects! i think all to often they just chuck tablets at you willy-nilly.

Apart from that everything else has been good, had a great love making session last night, desire was defineatly there. Work outs are still going good, definatly gaining some muscle now!

Take care


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

*Day 23*

Nothing new to report, still feel good. I am currently on 10mg Nolvadex and 50mg of Clomid


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

*day 24*

*
*Last night i felt a bit down and this morning i dont feel much better. I dont know about my libido beacuse last night with my misses i had a little trouble, maybe it is just beacuse i masturbated twice that day im not sure. Time will tell.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

cwoody123 said:


> *day 24*
> 
> *
> *Last night i felt a bit down and this morning i dont feel much better. I dont know about my libido beacuse last night with my misses i had a little trouble, maybe it is just beacuse i masturbated twice that day im not sure. Time will tell.


Well, id say that is quite alright. If I hit the ol pud twice that day id care less if I would want to have more sex or not.

You are doing fine.


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

"Hit the old pud" lol I went back to the doctor today and there was no protein in my urine. I told him about the sleeping problems and he said to stop taking the antibiotics, hopefully that will do the trick and i can now get some sleep


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

*Day 25/26*

I don't know what it is but over the last few days desire has been a bit off, sensation is also not as strong as what it was, I have some how managed to tear the the bit of skin that holds the head of my penis to the base :-( work outs are still going well, up to 12st now and my weights have gone up also. when i get my blood work done on wed i am going to add: DHT, E2, SHBG to the list, she has already put down Total T, TSH, LH, FSH, PRL. Anything else you think i should add too the list?


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Maybe cortisol but that is a hard one and takes many tests during the course of the day to average that one.


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

*Day*

Ok well it is a single blood test so i have omitted the cortisol for now. I have added SHBG, DHT, LH, FSH, Testosterone, Estrodial, TSH. I have my blood drawn tomz so should have some results for Monday. So far i have been off SERMS for 4 days now. Libido was better yesterday, i had morning wood this morning 

O yea i forgot to mention i have an appointment with a plastic surgeon next month to discuss a tummy tuck to remove all the loose skin i have from losing weight. The only problem is the operation will cost £5000 :-(


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

How much is that in $?

That sounds like alot of cash.

With the name of Cwoodie, you can own that name with pride now getting morning wood.

morning wood is the best, it usually disappears when you get older and dont even notice it anymore. 

Morning wood is a great indicator of things being ok.


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

I think that is about $9500. It is BUPA standard price. The surgeon is the same guy who done my Gyno surgery so i know he is a top surgeon. the only thing i worry about is catching MRSA but i suppose u have to take a few risks in your life.

I think the Clomid is still coming out of my system but god damn i was horny at lunch time, i had all these sexual thoughts flooding my brain, i have not felt like that since puberty!

Do you not get morning wood whilst on gear?


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

O one more thing. I am suppsoed to be weight training tonight, do you think it will have any negative affect on my blood test tmoz?

Thanks!


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Yes I do get morning wood on gear.

Nowdays I dont notice morning wood every day. Had some this morning but I just started an anavar cycle and dont think that has much to do with it but I did have a sexual dream that was very strange.

Down right kinky I must say. I woke up shaking my head.

I love the elivated libido myself, makes me feel more like a man.

Man that is alot of cash.......


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

speaking of dreams in the last month i have had dreams and have woken up laughing at something im my dream. scares the crap out of my misses lol


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

*Day 28*

Well libido is getting out of control. I could not sleep properly last night due sexual dreams waking me up in the middle of the night. I even had a dream with gayness in it which i thought was odd as i consider myself straight. Had blood done this morning, will check on Friday to see if any results are in.

I feel more manly when my libido is up too. Also i have noticed that the way i talk to females at work has changed, i seem to get much more flirty and they love it!


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

cwoody123 said:


> *Day 28*
> 
> Well libido is getting out of control. I could not sleep properly last night due sexual dreams waking me up in the middle of the night. I even had a dream with gayness in it which i thought was odd as i consider myself straight. Had blood done this morning, will check on Friday to see if any results are in.
> 
> I feel more manly when my libido is up too. Also i have noticed that the way i talk to females at work has changed, i seem to get much more flirty and they love it!


This is very good news.

It is looking like things are all falling into place mate.

I had a gay dream this last week too and wasnt going to share that till you just did. I am strait too and it was a dude at work that I dont get along with.

Many times dreams mean diffrent things.

It is the subconcious mind that is working out its set of problems.

Its not a bad thing.


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

I hope so. balls dont look as big as they were but like you said before that doesn't really correlate to the amount of testosterone you produce. If it does turn out that my T is still low do you think it would be a good idea to try HCG+Clomid or do you reckon i should just go on to TRT? i know my endo is pretty one dimensional on this issue. She said that she might put me on TRT i things dont improve, i then asked her if that will shutdown my own Testosterone production and she said "No"! This is what made me wonder wether she actually knows what she is doing


----------



## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

cwoody123 said:


> I hope so. balls dont look as big as they were but like you said before that doesn't really correlate to the amount of testosterone you produce. If it does turn out that my T is still low do you think it would be a good idea to try HCG+Clomid or do you reckon i should just go on to TRT? i know my endo is pretty one dimensional on this issue. She said that she might put me on TRT i things dont improve, i then asked her if that will shutdown my own Testosterone production and she said "No"! This is what made me wonder wether she actually knows what she is doing


Well, she obviously had no clue to what is going on here.

Yes to the HCG and clomid, and nolva actually.

Id see if you can bring that all online before even considering TRT for life.

LOL @ not shutting you down.


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

Well hopefully if i'm tactful i can get her on my side. What about running an AI like Armidex along with HCG?


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

cwoody123 said:


> Well hopefully if i'm tactful i can get her on my side. What about running an AI like Armidex along with HCG?


Well, it can be done but you would need to give blood and try to nail getting within the good range.

But the problem is your estrogen would be all over the place, the HCG unless shot a little every day and the use of an AI, it would be almost impossible without knowing exactally what is going on to guess that one.

Problem would be that you might drive estrogen too low compromising lipid profiles.


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

*Day 29*

Things are still going ok, libido has tappered off a little today. I also think i am coming down with a cold :-(

I always get really excited waiting for blood test results to come through!


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

*Day 30*

Ok got some results back:

*TSH* 3.1 M/ul (Normal)

*Estrodial-* 257 pmol was 80pmol (Big jump)

*LH* 9.0 mnol was 2.4

*FSH* 6.0 mnol was 2

*Prl 141* m/ul (about 7 ng/ml) was 198 m/ul (9.9 ng/ml)

Thats all that has come in so far, still waiting on DHT, T, SHBG.

i know i should really post the reference ranges but it would have been more trouble than its worth as receponist was a bit dappy! i will ask my Endo for the reference ranges when i see her thou.

Im a bit concerened with my estrodial being so high, is this usually a result of SERMS?


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

cwoody123 said:


> *Day 30*
> 
> Ok got some results back:
> 
> ...


Totally a result of the SERMS.

Remember they act like weak estrogens.

I hear they can skew test results for up to 6 weeks from stopping them.

Bottom line is you are feeling better and things are acting normal, I would not worry.

If estrogen is too high your libido would be gone.

Id like to see the refrence ranges tho.


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

Ok i will not worry about it to much. Libido is strange it seems to come and go which is quite fustrating. It will be interesting to see wether the SHBG is also eluvated. My endo is surely going to guess that i have been assisted by external means, if she don't then that would confirm she knows nothing! i won't come clean until i have heard what she has got to say. One thing that would indicate that i have high Estrodial levels is my enlarged prostate problem. I have been taking 45mg of zinc, 12 omega 3's, 45mg saw plamento a day with little effect on my prostate condition. I was thinking of adding some dim to see how i felt, what do you reckon?


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

Ok phoned surgery back and got someone who knows what they are talking about to go through ref renages with me:

TSH between 0.3 - 5

Estrogen (No range shown)

Prl between 0-700

FSH between 1-10

LH between 1-10

Hope this helps


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Ok, if you look at it very closely you will see your FSH and LH are elivated from before.

This is good, this tells me that the clomid and nolva are in fact doing what they are supposed to be doing (cant really say that as both of these meds are for women).

Now usually with high estrogen, you will have high SHBG.

If it comes back in normal range then all that elivated estrogen in my opinion would be from SERMS.

But I am no doc by any means, and dont know alot about this other than they dont know how to treat hypgonadism other than TRT.

If SHBG and Test are within normal ranges then after you come off everythig you can wait 6 weeks then test again.

Your endo mush be scratching her head for the elivated FSH and LH.

I had a friend that was told by the doctor that he had high cholesterol and he needed to take a Statin drug.

The guy said no thinks and told the doc he was going to treat it naturally.

The doc was telling him to just take the perscription drug, my friend said no.

He did a followup a month or a bit longer later and his cholesterol was seriously down. The doc then asked him what the hell was he doing.

He told the doc and the doc just dropped his mouth open.

Remember many of the meds we take were dirived form plants.

Yes DIMM is considered an anti-estrogen and can be used to lower estrogen. But for right now, it might be better to play the course, wait till the meds clear your system, then go for some more testing, if you have elivated estrogen then I would use the DIMM. PCgammer on the meso board is the man when it comes to calculating where your estrogen is using DIMM.

But I remember hearding that blocking prolactin can lower LH sensitivity.

So, if your testosterone test comes back normal then this would certainly be a good thing.

One more thing, nolvadex acts like an estrogen to the prostate and uterus.

So, if you have prostate issues then nolva might not be the best idea. I forgot about that.

Zinc does act like a mild aromatase inhibitor, and zinc has the highest concintration in the prostate of any other gland, second behind the occular or maccular (cant remember which one) in the eye.

Also, the fish oils will take a couple of months to work and the saw palmetto will take many months, so chin up, stay upbeat and you will have to ride this one out for a time being. I would be happy to think that all things so far are going in a positive direction, this is great.

I know you feel better now than in a long time right?

Lets see how it goes when you drop the SERMS, if estrogen is an issue later on down the road, we can possibly consider DIMM or some other modifications in your diet to combat extra estrogen.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Here is a little copy and paste:

A study from the National Cancer Institutes shows that taking more than 100 mg a day of zinc supplements a day doubles a man's chances of developing advanced prostate cancer.

The prostate contains the highest concentration of zinc of any tissue in the body. Semen contains the highest concentration of zinc of all body secretions. Because of this, many men take zinc supplements, even though there is no evidence that taking zinc can treat impotence, prostate enlargement or cancer. Sellers of Zinc supplements base their recommendations to take zinc on studies from Egypt and Iran that show that boys who are deprived of zinc do not develop normal sexual characteristics. This study from the National Cancer Institute shows that men who take more than 100 mg a day of zinc double their risk for advanced prostate cancer, as did men who took the supplements for 10 years or more.

In the United States, 10 percent of men who take zinc supplements take 2 to 3 times more than the recommended 11 mg of zinc/day. Journal of the National Cancer Institute, July, 2003


----------



## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

So are you saying that Zinc is actually counter productive for BPH? i will continue to take omega 3's even if its has no effect on my prostate.

Hackskii I would also just like to thank you for giving me great advice, you have made this whole thing feel like a problem shared rather than feeling on my own!

Cheers mate ;-)


----------



## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

cwoody123 said:


> So are you saying that Zinc is actually counter productive for BPH? i will continue to take omega 3's even if its has no effect on my prostate.
> 
> Hackskii I would also just like to thank you for giving me great advice, you have made this whole thing feel like a problem shared rather than feeling on my own!
> 
> Cheers mate ;-)


Oh, thanks man I appreciate that. I love to help.

One thing I notice is when guys feel like they are all alone and have medical problems, some times the are at whit's end. Man, if that is not bad enough, stress lowers testosterone production, just messes you up and at this point you are doing more harm than good.

Some times a little assurance helps out alot for several reasons.

First as you said it is not just your problem alone but shared.

second when we get distracted, it can disrupt our sleep (I do this some times my mind wont shut off at night), this lowers testosterone and growth hormones as well as not allow us to rebuild our bodies like with restfull sleep.

I have talked to guys that have crashed from steroids and if you read some of their posts they sound defenceless, no hope, depressed, scared, it is some of the ugliest things I ever saw. The last thing the guy needs to hear is that he should not have done them (gear). At this point you are doing more harm than good.

I think all problems can be solved.

The endrocrine syetem is really a delicate ballance, it is also a bunch of check and ballances. Some times things get out of whack.

I was just reading the other day that alcohol with just one drink can raise testosterone, but many drinks can elivate estrogen and lower testosterone by 25%

So, if a dude went to the doctor and asked him why his test levels were low and his estrogen was high the doc would just put them on TRT.

WTF?

This is what they do, they are reactive.

If the doc knew that the guy was a drinker lets say, he could offer advice that would make a life changing positive adjustment, this would be pro-active.

On the prostate deal and zinc, I would be willing to bet that if you are going over 100mg a day then yes, not good, but there was no mention on BPH and zinc but it was prostate cancer and zinc.

I myself do only 50mg a day.

I feel that at 50mg this would be a great dose for men to take.

Damn, I like to type, sorry for the long winded post mate.


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

Not at all mate this stuff fascinates me. You have been there and done it and that means more to me than some one who has gone to medical school for a few years. i also read that study on alcohol and testosterone, just today a posted up a link on meso


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

I just glossed through that, but that study suggested it raised it and that is why behavior gets agressive on alcohol.

It does lower it, a doctor Shippen has studied this and he is one of the top TRT dudes in our country.

He has a book out, fun read too.


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

Well you can't believe everything you read or hear. This is on a study that contradicts many others thats say alcohol lowers T. Alough i have had a few beers and wine tonight to celebrate my results. Misses has passed out lol must be to much loving ;-) x


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

cwoody123 said:


> Well you can't believe everything you read or hear. This is on a study that contradicts many others thats say alcohol lowers T. Alough i have had a few beers and wine tonight to celebrate my results. Misses has passed out lol must be to much loving ;-) x


Good man, keep up the HARD work.....heee heeee


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

*Day 31/32*

Well libido is still on and off. Function is still there. My facial hair growth still seems to be slow which tells me that my DHT will come back low. For some reason i think even if my T is eluvated, when i get the results i still feel that available free T will still not high. I suppose this is all theory until i get the rest of my results, the only problem is i will only get total T and not free T. I think i will give it 6 wks then go back and get the tests done again like you said Hackskii.


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

*Day 33*

well i got some more results back

Serum Testosterone: was 12.6 mnol(363) it is now *30.3 (873)!!*

SHBG was 39nmol.

No DHT results has come in yet?

I'm pretty stoked that my HPTA does actually work! I had to ask the lady again if she meant 13.3 but nope it's definatly 30.3! My endo is gonna scratching her bonce quite a bit LOL


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

What is the range of SHBG?

Also what is the normal range for the test?


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

Ok sorry missed doing that again!

Testosterone between 10-40

SHBG between 13-71


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Well, that looks to me like it was the SERMS that were pushing the estrogen to show high, but if estrogen is high then SHBG should be high, seems that your estrogen might be within range and the SERMS giveing some kind of false reading.

I figured that is what was happening.

Bet your endo is really scratching her head.....lol......


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

Yea i think i am going to have to come clean. It is going to be akward as i have not listend to her advice and done my own thing. If in one months time i get my levels checked and are still good would this indicate that i have managed a new set-point or could my levels continue to go down just very slowly? it would make sense that you either crash or don't but i really do not know what to expect so advice would be appreciated


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

*Day 33*

Today i have noticed a bit of acne starting to appear, it is on my back, chest and chin. I suppose this would be due to eluvated T levels, alough i read that high estrogen can cause acne too. Still not sleeping that great, i wake up really hot even thou the room is fine. Hopefully as my levels balance out that will improve.


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

meant to be *Day 34* Doh!!


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

I think it originally was the prolactin that lowered your testosterone. Now that you have that in check and your hormones are firing on all 8 cylinders id be willing to bet with just a few diet changes you will keep your test levels just fine.


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

what sort of diet changes? ;-)


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

cwoody123 said:


> what sort of diet changes? ;-)


More cruciferous vegetables (natural aromatase inhibitors).

No low fat or low cholesterol dieting.

More soluble and non-soluble fibers.

Zinc and magnesium at night before bed.

Better sleep.

Go easy on the alcohol, 1 drink can be helthfull but no more than that.

One is said to raise testosterone but more can lower testosterone by 25% and raise estrogen.

Keep the bellyfat down as this is where mostly aromatase enzymes reside.


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

Thanks Hackskii! Having stomach fat hacked off soon so that should help


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

*Day 35*

Like i said in another post i have had aching in my nuts last night and today, mind u i have cum 6 times in this space of that time so im thinking i have just over doing things. Feel pretty tired this afternoon for some reason but other than that feel good, cognitive abilites seem to have improved latley. I will make this my last post on this until i get my next set of results next month. I have found my self becoming quite obsessed with all this, i seem to over analayze things, i think after a while you just feel burned out. There is nothing i can do for a month so its time to sit back and wait.

Thanks for all the help!


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

I thought i would post a quick update as i have noticed a few things change. First of all still not sleeping that great, wake up about 4 am then sleep on and off until about 7am. Intially on my bulk i was building muscle quite well and my body was looking toned and more muscular and my weight was only going up 0.5-1lbs a week depsite eating lots of food, over the last 2 weeks i have gained 5lbs and i feel more flabby, my definition seems to have disapated a bit and i generally feel more flabby. i can't help thinking this is either hormone related or the fact that i have been over training, i am carming my training down to every 3 days now rather than going every 2 days. Im itching to go back to docs and get my blood work done to make sure everything is still ok but i know i should wait another couple of weeks until i can check my estrodial levels. Do you think i should go and get my blood work done again now or just wait?


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Wait till the SERMS are totally out of your system, that will give you the indication where everything is.

Those SERMS will throw off the test.


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

Well spoke to the endo today. Explained what i done. She said she was suprised as this was a female fertility drug, she also said that the elevated estrodial was clomid producing estrogen. She asked me how i felt on it so i told her not to great first week better consistantly better intil i felt great by the end of it, she said your body obviously favours higer testosterone. I asked her what were we going to do if my levels go back down, and she said she was reluctant to put me back on to TRT beacuse it will affect my prolactin (yea right!) O yea and she didnt know what DHT was! she siad dont you mean DHEA! i think this confirmed in my mind that she really does not know what she is doing!


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Ouch mate, I dont like the idea of putting her in charge of your hormones.

Dude, not knowing what DHT is, is seriously a red flag.

There are many things that help with prolactin, the stuff you are taking and even B6.

If your body prefers the normal to upper range of testosterone then by all means go on some test. Reluctant?.....No way....

How is the nuts?


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

Thats what im thinking, my other half said why don't you be asked to be reffered to another endo, but the only problem is i very well just end up with another terrible one. She has given a blood test form for the end of April and in 6 months time so thats atlest something. She said i could phone back if i have any concerns, if my levels are low again i might phone her and say look i am happy to take the risk of my prolactin go up, but keeping my testosterone low is going to make me more ill in the long run! and i would prefer to go on to TRT. Feeling ok, not had any erection problems, had a on and off libido over the last couple of weeks, nuts don't feel as big as when as post Clomid, but are still quite heavy. Just go to wait 3 weeks now


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

Ok i have just had my blood drawn, i know it's a little early but the urologist wanted to add some more tests to my blood work. It has been off Clomid for about 5 weeks. I have added a few more hormones to the blood test:

LH, FSH, Testosterone, Alubinum, SHBG (So i can work out free test) PSA (Peace of mind) TSH, ACTH, T3, T4, DHEA.

Will up date with the results later this week.

:beer1:


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

How do you feel?


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

Yea not bad. Just started a split routine at the gym so aching like a bastard at the mow! Libido has been on and off over the last few weeks, however over the last week it seems to be increasing (Got a big tit fetish at the moment lol) Noticed that i have put some fat on around the waist and **** and my nipples have gone a bit flabby, i think it maybe time to stop bulking and diet for a bit. A couple of people have said my arms and chest have got bigger (Complements are always nice, but addictive!)

Anyway Hackskii how are you? Did you see that Megazoid thread on da other board?


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

No, I didnt see that thread, is it good?

Do you have a link?

I am good man, on HGH and anavar at the moment, forgot my cup from home to do the protein, creatine, dessicated liver, greens and popped it into the cup and I swear something is not right.

I had that cup in the desk for years and it is either something in the cup, or something in the water, but it totally tasted like chemicals, It spells like paint.

Only think diffrent is a new batch of greens, it is a bunch of super foods ground up, I mix all that together and I do feel diffrent, I suspect the dessicated liver is the positive thing here, I love that stuff.

Also is a natural aromatase inhibitor too......yah...


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

yea well a bit morbid, some lad with Low T, libido issues wrote a suicide note and posted it up, i think they have talked him out of it but not sure whats happening. Link

Sounds like good stuff from what i have just read. Will research some more a bit later.

Maybe you have an disgruntled work colleuge who contaminated your mug :-s lol


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

cwoody123 said:


> yea well a bit morbid, some lad with Low T, libido issues wrote a suicide note and posted it up, i think they have talked him out of it but not sure whats happening. Link
> 
> Sounds like good stuff from what i have just read. Will research some more a bit later.
> 
> Maybe you have an disgruntled work colleuge who contaminated your mug :-s lol


I going to read that link now.

I put two and two together on that drink, It is a new batch of greens, I used a diffrent cup and some bottled water and it did the same thing, that tasts like chlorine. I got the green powder (superfoods) at half price as it was marked down due to expire, it is normally around $39.00 but it was half price.

It totally smells like chemicals.

I have had words with some at work and that would not surprise me if it got spiked.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Wow, that was bad.

He sounded more like he was venting than threatening to commit suicide.

If I was him I would buy some under ground gear and bang that myself, experament on doses and AI's and everything.

He is in some sad state right now.

I posted but man, the gear in the UK is legal to possess for personal use, no sense in not trying yourself to self treat.


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

Good post mate. It amazes me how some people give in so easy, i see my condition as a challenge and i know i will get to the holy grail soon. i bet that took you 5 mins to find that info and probably will hit the nail on the head for that poor lad.

With all this good advice and help you are passing about i think karma will give you a lottery win or something, at the least your get a free pass at the pearly white gates ;-)

Got any more info on these super greens?

Cheers!:beer1:


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

cwoody123 said:


> Good post mate. It amazes me how some people give in so easy, i see my condition as a challenge and i know i will get to the holy grail soon. i bet that took you 5 mins to find that info and probably will hit the nail on the head for that poor lad.
> 
> With all this good advice and help you are passing about i think karma will give you a lottery win or something, at the least your get a free pass at the pearly white gates ;-)
> 
> ...


The greens are basicly freeze dried vegetables ground into powder form, the ones I use have some berries that are in there and tasts pretty good.

The protein to fat ratio is actually perfect.

But, I am not using it for that, I use it with whey protein and dessicated liver powder so the liver does not taste so bad, then I also toss 5g of creatine in there and use this during the day to add to my protein intake, and for PWO drink.

I notice that guy didnt post anymore, do you think he checked out?


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## ah24 (Jun 25, 2006)

Get a room you two! It's been just you two since page 4!*  

*Not that im sad enough to scroll through each page and find that statistic out


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Hey cwoody123, Megazoid actually contacted me via e-mail, he asked me for advice and I think this is a great step fwd.

I actually think I can help him, I am very excited about this, and very optomistic too.

Poor guy.

I am glad he didnt check out, I am also flattered he contacted me and asked for advice.

I told him I want nothing but a thanks and for him to have sex again.

I am so excited.

Thanks cwoody123 for linking me to that post and having contact with him, that was a good deed for you as well, in fact moreso as I never would have known.

My hero........That made my day.........

Thanks Mate.....Cheers....


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

ah24 said:


> Get a room you two! It's been just you two since page 4!*
> 
> To be honest i am now getting a little jealous! I would love to join your gang! Hey have you seen Brokeback mountain?


I'm sorry bud its not that sort of thread. But hey some one might see this thread and include you in there homosexual activities. Good luck!

(Just kidding) ;-)


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

Ok got some results:

LH 2.6 (1-10)

FSH 2.0 (1-1)

PSA 0.7 ug/l (0-2.5)

TSH 1.5 (0.3 - 5)

T4 free 16.7 pmol (9-24)

T3 free 5.8 pmol (3.5-6.5)

Prolactin 111 nmol (0-400)

Cortisol 324 nmol/l (unknown)

Albumin 44 g/l (34-48)

SHBG 44 nmol (13-71)

Testosterone 20.2 (10-40)

DHEA 8.7 umol/l (unknown)

I used this testosteroen calculator (here)

These are the results:

Free Testosterone- 0.361 nmol/L = 1.78 %

Bioavailable Testosterone- 8.64 nmol/L = 42.8 %

For some reason estrodial has not been done and i am waiting on ACTH.

What do you think?


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

cwoody123 said:


> Ok got some results:
> 
> LH 2.6 (1-10)
> 
> ...


Well, I am no doc but if everything is within refrence ranges I dont see anything that stands out.

FSH the refrence range is 1-10?

I would have liked to see the estrogen but everything looks ok to me.

SHBG is a tiny bit high and if your estrogen is a little elivated then this would account for that, along with a bit lower on the free test.

But the real thing we need to look at here is this: How do you feel?

I have been e-mailing that Megazoid dude every day.

I think he is going to be just fine. I reassured him big time.


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

My endo must have forgot to ad the E2, it's a shame as it would have given us a much clearer picture. I was a little miffed with my TSH a it was 3.5 before and now it's 1.5, my T3-T4 seems ok. I definatly have put on fat, i didn't seem to be when on the lomid and a little while after even thou i was eating everything in sight!

I feel ok, Libido is stop start at the moment and nipples and body feels bit flabby. Damn i wish i got the estrodial checked and i might see if this could be estrogen related.

That's good news about Megazoid, he seems very confused at the moment and is now getting abit of a roasting on the da other forum. Good work Hackskii, keep me updated on his progress ;-)


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

I am at a loss as to why the endo didnt do the E2 either, that tells a very big picture of things.

I need to go back to the other board and see how mega is doing, roasting someone in his condition is counter productive.

After all, I have seen guys in his condition first hand and it is one of the saddest things.

Had he not posted that I never would have made contact with him.

It is not right to kick someone when they are down, not right at all.

I might just have to post something positive.


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

cwoody123 said:


> Ok got some results:
> 
> LH 2.6 (1-10)
> 
> ...


Hello all! Long time no see 

Just thought i would post up my latest labs taken on Fri 4th:

LH 2.7

FSH 2.0

Estrodial 124

Alubmin 48

T3 6.2

T4 17.9

Still waiting on: Testosterone, SHBG, ACTH

My estrodial is still raised and it has been over 8 weeks since i finished my Clomid cycle, this is surely indicative of armotization, also i have noticed my nipples have got flabby latley and my body feels softer. i will phone back and see if other results are in but it looks as if there are problems with my e2.

What do you all think?

Also how is things going with megazoid Hackskii? And how r you?

Cheers! Cheers!


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

cwoody123 said:


> Hello all! Long time no see
> 
> Just thought i would post up my latest labs taken on Fri 4th:
> 
> ...


I have not heard from mega in a while, not sure really how he is doing.

You know there are several things that can elivate E2 besides aromatase right?

Aromatase would be the first thought, but stuff like alcohol, certain perscription drugs, soy products and other things can elivate estrogen.

A diet rich in cruciferous vegetables can lower E2.

Zinc, dessicated liver, among other things can help lower estrogen.

Or you can pick up some of that DIMM, that will lower it some, but with your experiance with the 6-OXO

Tell me why in your own mind how you think the 6-OXO did something.

Not that I don't believe you, but some guys recommend this for PCT after a steroid cycle.

I thought I read some where that it can tank estrogen and maybe sometimes it is perminant.

I have never recommended it myself, just looking for some of your thoughts on this.


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

I have not had alcohol in 2 months and i never never eat products contianing soy. I have been trying to eat vegtables every day in my diet food. Got my tummy tuck operation booked for 6 June so trying to trim some more fat off for that. I must admit i have not been taking zinc since you mentioned about the prosate thing. They think they might be on to something ragarding my prostate, well not actually the prostate at all but scar tissue on the uretha caused by UTI's, they cultured my semen and it grow bugs apparently! so they are repeating the tests, they said this bug is very sensitive to penacillin which im alergic too!

I tried dim last month and didn't notice much to be honest. Thinking of speaking to endo about Armidex or something.

I took 6 caps of 6oxo a day for the first week, after about 5 days my nipples got really itchy so i just stopped taking them, this is where i think the mistake was made, instead of tappering off i just shocked my body and got the estrogen rebound. I know that eventually my estrodial levels fell to normal levels again as before the clomid cycle they were 80 pmol (20pm/gl)

I think for alot of people it could work i just thinking that precuations should be taken in making sure you tapper off of it correctly.

Will be intersting to see what my T results come back like hopefully tmoz.

Thanks for the help Hackskii ;-)


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Anytime mate.


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

Ok well i have got my Testosterone back and it is 21.5 mnol (619 US) ref range (10-40)

Looks like my body is maintaining around the 20's mark now. I did not get my SHBG back yet. Albumin was higher at 48 this time round. So far so good the only thing i want to do now is get my E2 down, as i think this is what is causing the puffines in my nipples. It makes sense because when i was on clomid my chest looked tight an ripped and now im off it seems flabby again, any one else noticed this when estrodial is high. I have some Nolvadex, i didnt think this helped with the LH side of things for me personally but i know it has a strong affinty for receptors in the chest so might be worth a go... or may i could get my hands on some Arimdex

Also has anyone else heard of using nicotine patches as anti-estrogens?


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

I have heard of nicotine being a mild aromatase inhibitor.

But, If you control or drop your estrogen down into more normal ranges your test levels might creap up a bit.

Because E2 is elivated some the body has no other method of lowering E2 other than lower test to keep aromitization down.

Aromatase resides mostly in bellyfat, so if you have more than normal bellyfat this could be one cause.

Low dose adex would probably be cool, but then I would have a doc monitor that.


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

well i have belly fat and loose skin, this is going to be removed on the 6th June. I think my the sudden increase in testosterone from 12 to 30 in 3 weeks probably spiked my estrodial as it went up to 263 and it is now down to 120 so it is going down. I was thinking of buying some more Dim but i am still a little sceptical of it's effectivness. I know for sure that my endo would not have anything to do with perscribing me Anti-estrogens (Will still phone her next week to try my luck


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

Good day!

Thought i would give you guys a quick update. I Got some blood tests back last week and T is still elevated at 21.9. Estrodial is down to below 80 again. My SHBG is still a little high. But all in all i feel great, well apart from having to shave more often!

My tummy tuck is scheduled for tmoz so im a bit nervous and excited at the same time. I just read that i'm going to have to wear tights for 3 weeks lol I will be sure to post up before and after pictures.

Take care!


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## megatron (Apr 21, 2004)

haha tights!

good luck with the surgery mate.


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

Congratulations cwoody123. Any update pics?


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

No update pics yet, will post some at the end of my cut as part of the my "Ethanate diary"


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

cwoody123 said:


> No update pics yet, will post some at the end of my cut as part of the my "Ethanate diary"


Cool, looking forward to seeing that mate!


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