# The 'Haribo' effect - insulin spike



## stoic (Jul 29, 2012)

So I'm just a guy who works out in his garage, eager to learn and happy to be open minded about approach to diet and routine.

Recently I've seen a few mentions of Rick Hall's method of deliberately creating a large insulin spike pre/post workout to achieve better absorption /shuttling of nutrients (primarily protein I assume)

Link to PDF:

http://www.letsaddmass.com/wp-content/pdf/99p-muscle-mixup.pdf

Is this bro-science or can someone more educated than me back it up?


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## XXVII (Jul 29, 2013)

Not sure if it's an actual fact but I quite often eat something sugary post-workout.

Not sure the reason behind it but I've heard it's the best time to have sugary carbs.


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## simonthepieman (Jun 11, 2012)

It's one of these things that works in theory, but any test i've seen that does a double blind test on it's effectiveness yields no magic gains


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

simonthepieman said:


> It's one of these things that works in theory, but any test i've seen that does a double blind test on it's effectiveness yields no magic gains


its not about magic gains though as they are just carbs....

post workout eating carbs is a sound and effective way (backed up with science) to assist with recovery after a workout, eating haribo/cereal/branch dextrin/vitargo etc will all give carbs that will spike insulin.....it is nothing more nothing less.

it is slightly ironic that Rick has in the past on his lean plans dismissed carbs post workout opting for the method of CPW (Carbless Post Workout a method to abstain from carbs until the next morning to increase insulin sensitivity and drop fat) but now puts his name on this method 

Rick is a little behind the times though many have been doing this for years, i have been doing it since 2010........


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## danny1871436114701 (May 2, 2010)

I did this prior to even looking on forums, crunchy nut cornflakes PWO with a shake. why it seemed a best place to have **** carbs.

Does its really make a difference who knows, as some people dont even take pwo supps (whey etc) just eat whole foods

its nothing groundbreakeing, however for someone in prep for comp this method would allow them something sweet as many times they lifted weights so may keep them more sane when dieting. just a guess that lol


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

it won't make a difference at all if you have a solid meal or shake after a workout, but there is data to back up you recover better if you have carbs and protein within 2hrs of training along with a study actually carried out on bodybuilders to show timing a recovery shake (P/C) after a workout has a benefit. it then lends itself to common sense not to wait to long to have Pro/Carbs post workout.


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## Dh2909 (Aug 9, 2011)

according to Robert Portman and John Ivy who wrote nutrient timing, They show studies that if u get a large insulin spike within 45 minutes of training it increases insulin sensitivity for upto the next 24 hours, which creates a better environment for muscle growth/fatloss.

Also poliquin and keither advocate getting a large insulin spike post workout.

On this basis I make sure I have a very high GI PWO shake

But each to there own, im no scientist


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## DaveW3000 (Mar 25, 2013)

Worth a read:

Is It Necessary to "Spike" Insulin Post-workout?

Another concern of the fat-free-post-workout camp is the blunting of the insulin response. The rationale of maximizing the insulin response is to counteract the catabolic nature of the post-trained state, switching the hormonal milieu into an anabolic one, thus speeding recovery. Although this might benefit those who train fasted or semi-fasted, many don't realize that a pre-exercise meal (and in some cases the mid-exercise meal) is doing more than enough spiking of insulin levels for anticatabolic purposes.

It's an important objective to not only maximize muscle protein synthesis, but also minimize protein breakdown. However, the latter doesn't require a massive insulin spike, but rather just a touch beyond basal/resting levels. To illustrate this, Rennie & colleagues found that even during a sustained high blood level of amino acids, no further inhibition of muscle protein breakdown occurred beyond insulin elevation to approximately 15 ?U/l,20 which is slightly above normal basal levels of 5-10 ?U/l.

To reiterate, the pre-exercise meal can have profound effects on insulin levels that surpass the length of the training bout. Tipton's team found that as little as 6g essential amino acids + 35g sucrose taken immediately before exercise (45-50 minutes of resistance training) was enough to keep insulin elevated to roughly 4x above fasting levels 1-hour post-exercise.21 It took 2 hours post-exercise for insulin to return to resting levels. A similar insulin response was seen with 20g whey by itself taken immediately preworkout.22 If carbs were added to the pre-training protein, there would be yet a greater insulin response.

As far as solid food goes, Capaldo's team examined various metabolic effects during a five hour period after ingesting a meal composed of 75g carb (47%), 37g prot (26%), and 17g fat (27%).23 Although this study didn't examine training effects, this meal would make a nice post-workout meal due to its absolute (and proportional) amounts of protein and carbohydrate. The fat-fearing camp would warn against the meal's fat content interfering with the insulin response. However, this meal was able to raise insulin 3 times above fasting levels within 30 minutes of consumption. At the 60 minute mark, insulin was 5 times greater than fasting. At the 300 minute mark, insulin levels were still double the fasting level.

Elliot and colleagues compared the effect of fat-free milk, whole milk, and a higher dose of fat-free milk (to match the calories of the whole milk) taken 60 minutes post-resistance exercise.24 Whole milk was superior for increasing net protein balance. Interestingly, the calorie-matched dose of fat free milk containing 14.5g protein, versus 8.0g in the whole milk (an 81% advantage), but still got beaten. The investigators speculated over the possible mechanisms behind the outcome (insulin response, blood flow, subject response differences, fat content improving nitrogen retention), but end up dismissing each one in favor of concluding that further research is necessary to see if extra fat calories ingested with an amino acid source will increase muscle protein synthesis. Lingering questions notwithstanding, post-workout milkfat was the factor that clinched the victory - at least in overnight-fasted subjects.

To put another nail in the coffin of the insulin spiking objective, post-exercise glycogen resynthesis is biphasic.25 Unlike the subsequent "slow" phase which can last several hours, the initial "rapid" phase of glycogenesis lasting 30-60 minutes immediately post-exercise is not dependent upon insulin. Maximizing post-workout hyperinsulinemia may be beneficial for athletes with more than a single exhaustive endurance-containing training bout separated by less than approximately 8 hours, but in all other cases, the benefit in "spiking" insulin is nil.

In line with this theme, interesting research has surfaced in recent years challenging the idea that highly glycemic (and thus insulinemic) carbohydrates taken post-workout are the optimal for recovery. Erith's team found no difference between post-exercise high- and low-glycemic index (GI) carbohydrate intake on exercise performance the following day.26 In a similar study, Stevenson's team actually saw better next-day performance in subjects who consumed low-GI post-exercise carbohydrate than those who consumed high-GI post-exercise carbohydrate.27

Is spiking insulin necessary post-workout? Generally not.

-No greater inhibition of muscle protein breakdown has been seen beyond insulin elevation to approximately 15 ?U/l, which is slightly above resting/basal levels of 5-10 ?U/l.

-In one study, whole milk was superior for increasing net protein balance post-workout, despite the calorie-matched dose of fat free milk containing 81% more protein.

-The initial 30-60 minute "rapid" phase of glycogenesis immediately post-exercise is not dependent upon insulin.

-There's no need to attempt to spike insulin for recovery purposes since maximal effects are seen at minimal elevations. Simply getting enough total substrate surrounding the training bout suffices, at least within the context of a 24-hour separation between exhaustive training of the same muscles. Multiple depleting endurance-type bouts per day (i.e., < 8 hours between bouts) may be the exception to this rule.

-On a related tangent, it's been commonly recommended to maximize post-exercise hyperglycemia and hyperinsulinemia by consuming high-GI carbohydrates. However, this strategy has been seen to offer no benefit on next-day performance, and one recent study even saw endurance impairment.


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## Tinytom (Sep 16, 2005)

Following on from what Paul's said. I've tried using insulin pwo. Also tried artificially raising insulin using simple sugars. Both don't work for me as effectively as utilising the new glucose disposal agents. I'm extremely insulin sensitive and respond to carbs to well to smash in a load of sugars.

If you don't want to buy a GDA you can use chromium and ALA plus cinnamon to create a more insulin sensitive environment.


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## simonthepieman (Jun 11, 2012)

Pscarb said:


> its not about magic gains though as they are just carbs....
> 
> post workout eating carbs is a sound and effective way (backed up with science) to assist with recovery after a workout, eating haribo/cereal/branch dextrin/vitargo etc will all give carbs that will spike insulin.....it is nothing more nothing less.
> 
> ...


I almost added on that bit about recovery, but got distracted by my pesky day job.

It's true the lucozade are right, there is plenty of good data backing up the claims on recovery. Although if you are an average joe lifter this is not prevalent as in a larger guy or an endurance athlete (because of volume of glycogen depletion)


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## mic8310 (Sep 30, 2013)

All sounds technical. I tried a spoon full of sugar with creatine in 200ml water for an insulin spike. No idea if it worked but it tasted nice.


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

simonthepieman said:


> I almost added on that bit about recovery, but got distracted by my pesky day job.
> 
> It's true the lucozade are right, there is plenty of good data backing up the claims on recovery. Although if you are an average joe lifter this is not prevalent as in a larger guy or an endurance athlete (because of volume of glycogen depletion)


disagree to a point as it is not all about glycogen depletion as a whole but the amount of glycogen depletion for the individual, the study i mentioned is below was not carried out on advanced guys but bodybuilders in general, we have to assume that we are putting the information out there for guys who train hard (i understand this may not be the case).....

imo it is about whats the most you can get out of your training, having Pro/Carbs post training increases the benefit recovery wise so my advice would be if you are serious about training (and if you take gear you should be) then this makes logical sense.

Study - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17095924?dopt=Citation


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## simonthepieman (Jun 11, 2012)

Pscarb said:


> disagree to a point as it is not all about glycogen depletion as a whole but the amount of glycogen depletion for the individual, the study i mentioned is below was not carried out on advanced guys but bodybuilders in general, we have to assume that we are putting the information out there for guys who train hard (i understand this may not be the case).....
> 
> imo it is about whats the most you can get out of your training, having Pro/Carbs post training increases the benefit recovery wise so my advice would be if you are serious about training (and if you take gear you should be) then this makes logical sense.
> 
> Study - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17095924?dopt=Citation


thanks for the link. I love a good pubmed


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## stoic (Jul 29, 2012)

Thanks to everyone for their insight and input. Based on what's been said I will give it a go...


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## Dazarms (Sep 8, 2013)

Pscarb said:


> its not about magic gains though as they are just carbs....
> 
> post workout eating carbs is a sound and effective way (backed up with science) to assist with recovery after a workout, eating haribo/cereal/branch dextrin/vitargo etc will all give carbs that will spike insulin.....it is nothing more nothing less.
> 
> ...


Ive never heard of postless carbs mate

so how does this work say u train at 6pm

u just eat all ur carbs up to the workout

then sink a protein shake pwo but no carbs at all till the next morning when u wake up and have ur carbs meal 1?


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

Dazarms said:


> Ive never heard of postless carbs mate
> 
> so how does this work say u train at 6pm
> 
> ...


it is exactly what it sounds like mate, you have no carbs post workout.........normally you re-introduce them in the morning


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## Dazarms (Sep 8, 2013)

Pscarb said:


> it is exactly what it sounds like mate, you have no carbs post workout.........normally you re-introduce them in the morning


ive never heard people doing it that way

carb backloading

carb cycling

carb timing around workouts

but never carbless pwo

How effective is this and is it more old skool now

carbs pwo are prob most important time to take in ur carbs I would say

sure u would agree also mate


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## ConP (Aug 18, 2013)

Dazarms said:


> ive never heard people doing it that way
> 
> carb backloading
> 
> ...


By not having carbs after your workout you keep your insulin sensitivity very high.

This is more of a selling point for longevity seekers compared to your muscle seeker


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## Dazarms (Sep 8, 2013)

ConP said:


> By not having carbs after your workout you keep your insulin sensitivity very high.
> 
> This is more of a selling point for longevity seekers compared to your muscle seeker


Id just never came across it

or knew anyone who done it this way

maybe low carbs pwo

but not totaly cutting them out totaly

So does the same not apply to having no carbs morning

then just slowly bringing them up pre workout , intra, and pwo

That way also must help with insulin sensitivity right?


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

DaveW3000 said:


> Worth a read:
> 
> Is It Necessary to "Spike" Insulin Post-workout?
> 
> ...


This is kind of correct in that the effect of exercise is to increase sensitivity to glucose is mediated by AMPK (5-AMP activated protein kinase) - so glucose and amino acids can enter the muscle with less action form insulin. However, although AMPK is stimulated by a non insulin dependent mechanism in the post exercise state, it is also further amplified in the presence of insulin... basically, an insulin spike isn't necessary to transport nutrients pwo, but it helps magnify the transportation of nutrients into the cell.

the main question is to what degree this leads to long term benefit, and the studies aren't really there to say but don't appear to show an enormous benefit provided 34 hour nutrition is sufficient (if it isn't then there is quite clearly a benefit).

So while the advantage of insulin spiking via pwo carbs is certainly overhyped, glycogen loading however does generally promote faster feelings of recovery, even if it doesn't necessarily lead to greater performance in a diet already with moderate carb content... and if training more than once per day or for an extremely muscled individual there may well be an increased advantage to performance. There aren't the studies out there to say either way, and the subjective experiences of advanced bodybuilders and athletes are probably the best guide we have at this time... not something that counts as definitively scientific, but certainly not something to dismiss and a good guide for where research needs to go next in looking for optimal recovery strategies IMO.


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

can't edit my post above due to site errors - should say 24 hour nutrition, not 34.


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## Dazarms (Sep 8, 2013)

dtlv said:


> This is kind of correct in that the effect of exercise is to increase sensitivity to glucose is mediated by AMPK (5-AMP activated protein kinase) - so glucose and amino acids can enter the muscle with less action form insulin. However, although AMPK is stimulated by a non insulin dependent mechanism in the post exercise state, it is also further amplified in the presence of insulin... basically, an insulin spike isn't necessary to transport nutrients pwo, but it helps magnify the transportation of nutrients into the cell.
> 
> the main question is to what degree this leads to long term benefit, and the studies aren't really there to say but don't appear to show an enormous benefit provided 34 hour nutrition is sufficient (if it isn't then there is quite clearly a benefit).
> 
> So while the advantage of insulin spiking via pwo carbs is certainly overhyped, glycogen loading however does generally promote faster feelings of recovery, even if it doesn't necessarily lead to greater performance in a diet already with moderate carb content... and if training more than once per day or for an extremely muscled individual there may well be an increased advantage to performance. There aren't the studies out there to say either way, and the subjective experiences of advanced bodybuilders and athletes are probably the best guide we have at this time... not something that counts as definitively scientific, but certainly not something to dismiss and a good guide for where research needs to go next in looking for optimal recovery strategies IMO.


I just want the best possible plan to follow when it comes to building muscle and burining fat

All these different approaches end up just given me a headache as to which is most optimal to follow

Also confuses me as I use GH pwo and was going start with slin also

but still not sure if id benefit using it pre workout on its own the GH pwo

or both gh and slin together PWO

it all confuses me because everywhere u look there are different options and peoples oppinons

and it gets confusing


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## Marshan (Aug 27, 2010)

I had a couple of scoops of protein and 2 spoons of glucose after my leg workout yday...the recovery a few hours later was instantaneous...from constipation.


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## Dr Gearhead (Aug 15, 2012)

How about pre workout. I never know if I should have carbs or not, is it advantageous ?


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

Dazarms said:


> I just want the best possible plan to follow when it comes to building muscle and burining fat
> 
> All these different approaches end up just given me a headache as to which is most optimal to follow
> 
> ...


I hear you, it is a bit of a headfcuk. At the end of the day it is just opinion when it comes to what is optimal - there isn't an absolutely clear scientific answer. The use of slin and GH also changes the game compared to someone not using PEDs... I've never used either, but my take is that slin plus GH PWO with a feed of carbs and aminos is a pretty effective option if dosed properly... have you done slin and GH before? I'd definitely listen to @Pscarb on what he suggests on this.


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

Dr Gearhead said:


> How about pre workout. I never know if I should have carbs or not, is it advantageous ?


this should be dictated by your goals (and body type) if it is fat loss then no if you are gaining then yes........


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

Dazarms said:


> I just want the best possible plan to follow when it comes to building muscle and burining fat
> 
> All these different approaches end up just given me a headache as to which is most optimal to follow
> 
> ...


choose a method and stick with it buddy look at the results you get and then adjust if need be


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## infernal0988 (Jun 16, 2011)

Pscarb said:


> it won't make a difference at all if you have a solid meal or shake after a workout, but there is data to back up you recover better if you have carbs and protein within 2hrs of training along with a study actually carried out on bodybuilders to show timing a recovery shake (P/C) after a workout has a benefit. it then lends itself to common sense not to wait to long to have Pro/Carbs post workout.


I dont understand THIS is new to people ? Iv been doing this since i first started training & dieting . How come this is news for some ?


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## Dr Gearhead (Aug 15, 2012)

Pscarb said:


> this should be dictated by your goals (and body type) if it is fat loss then no if you are gaining then yes........


Thank you mate. Your advice has really helped me out in the last 6 months. Much appreciated.


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

Dr Gearhead said:


> Thank you mate. Your advice has really helped me out in the last 6 months. Much appreciated.


my pleasure buddy


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## Dazarms (Sep 8, 2013)

Pscarb said:


> my pleasure buddy


 @Pscarb

Could I ask ur advice mate on my recent diet Im following

Ive been put on 0 carbs right up until I workout out

which is after I finnish work at 6pm

Here is diet train day as follows

Training day

1) 1 scoop whey isolate + 50g almond butter + greens powder + l-carnatine + 3G fish oil

2) 6 whole eggs

3) 200g chicken + greens

4) 250g sirloin steak + greens

5) 200g chicken + 250g potato or 70g rice

6) Pre workout shake; 100g dextrose / 5g creatine monohydrate / bcaa 10g / Arginine, Taurine, Beta Alanene

7) Intra workout shake; 100g dextrose / 5g creatine monohydrate / 20g bcaa / 10g essential amino acids

8) 1 scoop whey isolate/hydro whey

9) 200g chicken/turkey/300g white fish + 250g potato or 70g rice / or 85g oatmeal with pineapple etc + greens + 50g dextrose

10) 6 whole eggs or 250g extra lean mince + greens + 50g almond butter. If not taking GH pre bed then include 250g potato/70g rice/85g oatmeal + 50g dextrose.

Totals;

Protein: 320-340g

Carbs: 350/450g

Fat: 110-120g

Calories roughly; 1320/1600/1035= 3995 (rough)

the problem im having is getting all way meal 5 with no carbs

Jack has told me this way is to improve insulin sensitivty

by having bulk carbs around workout

1st though by midmorning even with all the protein/ fats

im starving and craving oats or rice

Also come my training Im not getting as good of a pump as I used to even while having intra shakes during

Could u advise on this mate and what any suggestions u might have?

Ive also had to switch intra shake to Pre workout as my stomach feels sick sipping on all that during the workout itself

So I do preworkout and post workoout shakes and intra just sip on bcaa and eaa with creatine

and I dont use dextrose as posted here I use glycofuse and ive also got vitargo

thanks again for all help advice on here


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

if someone else has put this together for you mate it is best to speak to him, i cannot second guess another persons plan i am afraid....


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## Boroboy1980 (Dec 16, 2013)

I always went with a banana to the gym for as soon as I finished my workout. And a protien shake when I got home.

As long as my protien is within 45 mins of me finishing. (Maybe another myth but that's how I have always done it)


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