# Newbie girl! Pics and (hopefully soon) Progress!



## VforVictory (May 4, 2009)

I thought I should start a journal here because its so helpful to read about everyones progress, and its really motivating to see how dedicated you guys are! 

Iv only been training with weights for 2 weeks but I am loving it already and this is something I have wanted to do for a few years, I was just very shy lol and a bit obsessed with cardio. It took courage to post pics haha! (i hope i did it right :-S) I know I have a LONG way to go but I am very determined!

At the moment im training 3 times a week but im going to up that to 4 as soon as my exams are over!

At the moment im doing

Mon- Back (30mins cardio)

Weds - Chest/arms (30mins cardio)

Fri - Legs/Glutes (30mins cardio)

And I do abs on days off!

Im am thinking of changing it soon to

Mon - Upper Body

Weds - Lower

Fri - Upper

Sun - Lower

Im a bit clueless Im afraid because you hear so many tips everywhere its hard to know which ones to follow!

Anyway Im looking forward to improving!

Im going to post some workout info soon! Im so weak (especially arms/back) at the moment its a little embarrasing and frustrating haha! But im getting better already I think, so iv just got to keep it up!


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## defdaz (Nov 11, 2007)

Welcome V! Seems like a great workout plan you have but the new plan would work just as well if your diet etc. is good?

Post the pictures back up if you like and I'll resize them for you if you need help.


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## VforVictory (May 4, 2009)

Any advice for my weakest points would be much appreciated!!!! 

(I have moved the pics to my profile page)


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## MissBC (Apr 29, 2008)

Welcome babe, you can send me the pics also if you want and i can do it, if your a little shy!!

I think you should post your diet too, thats one of the most important things with embarking on a new training plan!!

I think for now your workout plan is good, being that you are only 2 weeks in you dont want to over complicate it!

xx


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## VforVictory (May 4, 2009)

Wow thanks for the fast reply!

I think i managed to sort them out (I couldnt work out how to just have a link to the pic in the post though) I am really bad with technology haha


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## MissBC (Apr 29, 2008)

shoulders and chest are looking good babe, and i think your leggies have great potential!! i think your back and arms are something to focus a little more on and then just overall body stuff to get you growing a little and getting you more defined!!


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## Jem (Mar 5, 2009)

Shoulders are better than mine already....ha - go girl - you must be a natural

Well done on posting pics so soon !

x


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## Jacko89 (Mar 4, 2009)

Welcome to UK-M. Looking good in the pics. Like Miss BC said get the diet up thats where you will get the most help and as its the most important thing its something you want to try and get right asap.reps for posting the pictures though!


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## defdaz (Nov 11, 2007)

You look great, I like the fact that you've used the ninja emote already! :lol:

What are your goals with weight-training?


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## VforVictory (May 4, 2009)

OK heres an average days diet.. I think it needs work but at least i'v stopped eating crisps and sweets (not easy for me LOL)! I am still overly reliant on caffiene for energy unfortunatley!!

Breakfast - Porridge made with skimmed milk, kiwi fruit and strawberries

Snack - 9 bar (basically its a seed bar with pumpkin, sesame etc seeds)

Lunch - Turkey or chicken with vegetables, maybe rice or a sweet potato

Snack - Pineapple and Cottage cheese

Dinner - grilled fish or a tuna salad


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## ZAXXXXX (Oct 3, 2008)

Welcome aboard V, UKM is the place to be for information and motivation without any doubt.


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## defdaz (Nov 11, 2007)

Caffeine helps boost fat metabolism as well as being a stimulant. If it wasn't for it's blood pressure raising effects it would have everything going for it. 

Diet looks great - you might want to look into getting some whey protein powder for extra protein?


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## VforVictory (May 4, 2009)

Jem said:


> Shoulders are better than mine already....ha - go girl - you must be a natural
> 
> Well done on posting pics so soon !
> 
> x


Aww thank u (but i bet yourr shoulders are way better than mine - mine are shockingly weak!!!).

I didnt really want to post them this soon but I thought it may help me get motivated!!!!!



defdaz said:


> You look great, I like the fact that you've used the ninja emote already! :lol:
> 
> Thanks a lot. Hopefully I will look much better soon! h34r: Gotta love the ninja lol
> 
> What are your goals with weight-training?


Well first of all I just want to get more defined and build strength (as much as possible). And be able to do unassisted dips and chins too!!!

But ultimatley I would really love to compete in a figure class!


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## Jem (Mar 5, 2009)

I will leave others to comment on your diet as I am rubbish ...but obviously you have done some research and have an idea of what to eat e.g complex carbs, casein protein, alt proteins etc so keep reading and listening to all the advice you get given here [and you will be inundated] and you should be good to go !!!

Dax [yes Dax...get used to it pmsl] what are you doing in your new avvi ....crying ?


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## MissBC (Apr 29, 2008)

babe if you dont wanna post in here can you message me your height, weight and age and il work out your rough calorie range


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## MissBC (Apr 29, 2008)

There are approximately 3500 calories in a pound of stored body fat. So, if you create a 3500-calorie deficit through diet, exercise or a combination of both, you will lose one pound of body weight

A calorie deficit can be achieved either by calorie restriction alone or by a combination of fewer calories in and more calories out. This combination of diet and exercise is best for lasting weight loss.

To loose weight its common to drop 500 calories from your maintenance level but NEVER more than 1000. Its recommended to never drop your cals below 1200. You will only start to burn muscle!

Break them up into 5-6 meals the slightly bigger ones being breakfast, lunch and dinner (im assuming you workout at night)

If you do workout at night i would suggest a diet kinda following this

1- Carbs, Protein, Fats

2 - Carbs protein fats

3 - Carbs protein fats

4 (pre workout) protein, and fast acting carbs/sugars (banana etc)

5 -(postworkout) Protein fiberous veges

6 - Slow releasing protein and fats

its quite good to not eat fats 2 hours before or after training as it slows the absorbtion of protein and this is the time when you need it the most. I also dont really eat carbs after about 4pm. You need to try and eat some kinda protein/fat meal before bed cause if you start eating more often etc your metabolism will speed up and you will find you will be waking up hungry so if you eat slow releasing protein and fats it means that you get the fats slowing the protein absorbtion down and then you have slower releasing protein also so should last you till morning!

off the top of my head (sure others can add more)

Carb options

Oats

Wholemeal toast

Sweet potato

Normal Potato

Wholemeal pasta

Rice

Protein

Chicken

Turkey

lean mince

Egg whites

Protein powder

Salmon/fish

tuna

cottage cheese

Fats

Nuts

Olive oil

Egg yolks

peanut butter

salmon/fatty fish

VEGE VEGE VEGE

green vege is better

but JUST GET some fibre and veges in your diet BIG TIME and it will help to fill you up too

SOME people will have different opinions but take what you want and then you can always research a bit into the more specifics!


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## MissBC (Apr 29, 2008)

Some other options incase you want to mix it up a bit

*breakfast*

1 wholemeal toast/2 eggs

or

1 wholemeal toast/peanut butter/protein shake

or

porridge with honey and banana

or

shake/oats/olive oil

*mid moring/afternoon snacks*

Fruit/protein shake/nuts

or

Cottage cheese on crispbread

or

Tuna on wholemeal toast

or

Chicken/veges

or

Plain rice crackers and honey

*Lunch/dinner/supper*

Fruit/protein shake/nuts

or

Cottage cheese on crispbread

or

Tuna on wholemeal toast

or

Chicken/veges

or

Plain rice crackers and honey


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## Beklet (May 13, 2005)

VforVictory said:


> OK heres an average days diet.. I think it needs work but at least i'v stopped eating crisps and sweets (not easy for me LOL)! I am still overly reliant on caffiene for energy unfortunatley!!
> 
> Breakfast - Porridge made with skimmed milk, kiwi fruit and strawberries
> 
> ...


I'm not the best person to be commenting on diet, but main issue would be lack of protein at breakfast. Might be worth putting a scoop of protein powder in your porridge to get that protein up because if you want to build muscle, you need it at every meal


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## VforVictory (May 4, 2009)

Thanks so much for the diet advice!!!

Ill try to add some whey protein? to my shopping list! I have been finding it hard to eat so much protein as im not used to it!

I know I need to lose a fair bit of BF. Im hoping that it will come off as my metabolism increases as I build muscle, but i may try and up the cardio too.

I think Im eating between 1400 and 1800 cals a day at the moment.


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## VforVictory (May 4, 2009)

MissBC said:


> babe if you dont wanna post in here can you message me your height, weight and age and il work out your rough calorie range


I think Im about 5'5, about 136lbs I think, about 9 stone 5?


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## MissBC (Apr 29, 2008)

age?


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## neildo (Oct 9, 2008)

I think whey protein would be an essential addition to your diet (and to help you in getting the protein in). You could have one with your breakfast and one in a PWO (post workout) shake! This will feed your muscles when they are at their most depleted directly after the exercise. Many, if not most people, also have a high GI carb in this shake (maltodextrin, dextrose or the best = waxy maise starch) to help replenish spent glycogen.

Might seem un-neccesary since you've only started but honestly it will be worth it. There are many good deals to be had with the forum sponsor sites (myprotein.co.uk, bulksupplementsdirect.co.uk etc) so have a wee search about there!

Ps. definitely looks like you've got a good base to start from, good luck


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## MissBC (Apr 29, 2008)

just guessed your age at 25 (just for calculations)

so i have done a few calculations (based on 136lbs, 25 years old, 5ft 5)

your BMR is 1439.3, this is the amount of calories your body burns if you were to just ly in bed all day!

so using the Harris Benedict Equation i have worked out the following

Saying that you would be moderatetely active (moderate exercise/sports 3-5 days/week) : Calorie-Calculation = BMR x 1.55

so 1439.35 x 1.55 = 2230.9925 calories needed to maintain your current weight!

so ideally you should be looking to sit around 1730.9 cals a day which is 500 less!!

Then atleast you have room to move if things stall!


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## MissBC (Apr 29, 2008)

i would kinda suggest keeping it simple with 40% protein, 40% carbs and 20% fats


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## Mikazagreat (Apr 10, 2009)

Uppser chest and shoulder lookin great for sure, Lats are fine, legs need some attention 

Welcome and good luck with your goals.


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## Inggasson (Jul 13, 2008)

Even that tan out and you'll be just fine


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## scot.r111 (Mar 25, 2009)

Welcome to the board!

MissBC, you are brilliant! Your advice is really good.

Scott


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## MissBC (Apr 29, 2008)

scot.r111 said:


> Welcome to the board!
> 
> MissBC, you are brilliant! Your advice is really good.
> 
> Scott


thanks babe, i try to help if i can!!

I was in this position once and only got by because people offered to help me so tis my turn now!

:thumb:


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## defdaz (Nov 11, 2007)

VforVictory said:


> Well first of all I just want to get more defined and build strength (as much as possible). And be able to do unassisted dips and chins too!!!
> 
> But ultimatley I would really love to compete in a figure class!


Fantastic, really great goals - shorter term and longer term, sorted. Best of luck. Don't forget to get some protein powder and add a shake or two to your diet.

Jem - nice one, I am crying :crying: Most people say it looks like I'm boxing or something lol.


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## VforVictory (May 4, 2009)

scot.r111 said:


> Welcome to the board!
> 
> MissBC, you are brilliant! Your advice is really good.
> 
> Scott


Thanks, its nice to have such a warm welcome from everyone



Greekgoddess said:


> All the best with your aims. Some very informative posts on here, and very helpful people when you need advice. You have avery good base to work from. Keep up the good work.


Thanks for the encouragement! Everyone has been so helpful already!



MissBC said:


> thanks babe, i try to help if i can!!
> 
> I was in this position once and only got by because people offered to help me so tis my turn now!
> 
> :thumb:


Thank u so much 4 all the advice, I really really appreciate it!:laugh:

Especially since lots of my (clueless:rolleye girl friends think im crazy. They dont offer much positive encouragement LOL!



defdaz said:


> Fantastic, really great goals - shorter term and longer term, sorted. Best of luck. Don't forget to get some protein powder and add a shake or two to your diet.
> 
> Jem - nice one, I am crying :crying: Most people say it looks like I'm boxing or something lol.


 :thumb: Cheers 4 the input! Im gonna get some shakes asap - i just hope they taste ok!


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## jess124 (Apr 7, 2009)

Yeah you won't get much encouragement from people who don't understand what your doing. The general publics attitude to women doing weights is that they will all get massive and look like blokes within weeks of lifting. There just dumb lol ignore them and crack on, I know I am!


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## Natural1 (Mar 23, 2009)

VforVictory said:


> Im am thinking of changing it soon to
> 
> Mon - Upper Body
> 
> ...


Welcome!

Don't worry too much about the many training styles out there, there are no "rules" as such in weight training just basic principles. The upper/lower method of structuring a workout is time tested and proven. Have you any idea yet how you're going to set it up?


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## DRED (Apr 13, 2006)

welcome


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## VforVictory (May 4, 2009)

MissBC said:


> age?


Im 20



neildo said:


> I think whey protein would be an essential addition to your diet (and to help you in getting the protein in). You could have one with your breakfast and one in a PWO (post workout) shake! This will feed your muscles when they are at their most depleted directly after the exercise. Many, if not most people, also have a high GI carb in this shake (maltodextrin, dextrose or the best = waxy maise starch) to help replenish spent glycogen.
> 
> Might seem un-neccesary since you've only started but honestly it will be worth it. There are many good deals to be had with the forum sponsor sites (myprotein.co.uk, bulksupplementsdirect.co.uk etc) so have a wee search about there!
> 
> Ps. definitely looks like you've got a good base to start from, good luck


Thanks a lot!

Im gonna buy the shakes asap (LOL im spending a small fortune on high protein food so ill have to train HARD to justify it)


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## Pagie (Jul 1, 2008)

Welcome and best of luck with your progress.


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## VforVictory (May 4, 2009)

Mikazagreat said:


> Uppser chest and shoulder lookin great for sure, Lats are fine, legs need some attention
> 
> Welcome and good luck with your goals.


Thank u.

Its funny cos my legs used to be my best body part until i developed a 2 year cardio obsession and everything sort of vanished:crying:

Hardcore squats here I come!



Inggasson said:


> Even that tan out and you'll be just fine


 PMSL! I need to stop faling asleep in the sun!


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## VforVictory (May 4, 2009)

Natural1 said:


> Welcome!
> 
> Don't worry too much about the many training styles out there, there are no "rules" as such in weight training just basic principles. The upper/lower method of structuring a workout is time tested and proven. Have you any idea yet how you're going to set it up?


Yeah I have a guide set out for upper body. Im hitting the gym 2morrow so ill post the session details (if i can still type with jelly arms HAHA)

Though to be honest its really more trial and error at the moment as im just finding out which exercises work for me.


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## VforVictory (May 4, 2009)

Thanks again for all the welcomes guys x


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## Natural1 (Mar 23, 2009)

VforVictory said:


> Yeah I have a guide set out for upper body. Im hitting the gym 2morrow so ill post the session details


Look forward to reading.



VforVictory said:


> Though to be honest its really more trial and error at the moment as im just finding out which exercises work for me.


Best lifts especially for beginners are all the compound (multi-joint) movements.

Chest Press

Dips

Pullups

Rows

Over Head Pressing

Squats

Deadlifts

All good routines should be based around these type of lifts with some added isolation work (single joint) exercises.


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## VforVictory (May 4, 2009)

Natural1 said:


> Look forward to reading.
> 
> Best lifts especially for beginners are all the compound (multi-joint) movements.
> 
> ...


Cheers for the advice. :thumb: I am planning to do a whole upper work out:

(assisted chin) 3x 10 wide arm chins 3x10 chins 3x 10 dips

3x10 lat pull down

3x10 chest press

3x10 overhead press

3x 10 bicep curl

3x10 tricep extension

3x10 upright rows

3x10 seated row

I hope this is achievable/suitable for me! But im not sure if it will work out exactly as i planned so ill just have to see!


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## Natural1 (Mar 23, 2009)

VforVictory said:


> Cheers for the advice. :thumb: I am planning to do a whole upper work out:
> 
> (assisted chin) 3x 10 wide arm chins 3x10 chins 3x 10 dips
> 
> ...


That's rather a lot of work in one session for a beginner. May I make a suggestion..

As you're hitting upper body twice per week there's no need to try and fit too many lifts into a single session. eg for chest you could do a press on the first upper, and dips on the second. You could do rows for back on the first upper, chins on the second etc.. break it up a little, don't bury yourself.


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## VforVictory (May 4, 2009)

Thanks for the advice. V. helpful. Ill def. split it up.

I guess the reason im so weak is partly because im trying to do much in one go (though i never feel like iv done enough tbh, even if i ache/shake like hell). I just get so frustrated with my weak self!


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## Natural1 (Mar 23, 2009)

VforVictory said:


> Thanks for the advice. V. helpful. Ill def. split it up.
> 
> I guess the reason im so weak is partly because im trying to do much in one go (though i never feel like iv done enough tbh, even if i ache/shake like hell). I just get so frustrated with my weak self!


You have hit the nail right on the head. Beginners need to focus on simple and basic strength progression. It doesn't take a lot of workload to get strong and in fact training with too much volume too soon can actually be counter productive. Here is an example of what I call a nice and simple strength based routine:

*Day 1*

3x Squats: 5 reps

3x Ham Work: 8 reps

3x BB or DB Row: 8 reps

2x Bicep Curls: 10 reps

*Day 2*

3x Bench Press: 5 reps

3x Military Press: 8 reps

3x Tricep Isolation: 10 reps

2x Ab/Calf Work: 15 reps

*Day 3*

3x Deadlifts: 5 reps

3x Pullups: 8 reps

3x Leg Press: 10 reps

2x Biceps Curls: 10 reps

*Day 4*

3x DB or Incline Press: 8-10 reps

3x Chest Dips: 8 reps

3x Side Lateral Raise: 10 reps

2x Ab/Calf Work: 15 reps

You'll see there are only 4-5 lifts per session, but.. imagine if you focused on these lifts and doubled or tripled your numbers on these lifts.. You see, a routine to get you bigger and stronger doesn't have to filled with lots of "fluff" just hard work and progression on the basic lifts.


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## Jacko89 (Mar 4, 2009)

To get real results you need to train your muscles to overload, if your doing a program like ^^^ it will take you longer to get results than if you was to completely fatigue a muscle group in one session. Like you say you want to do Upper, Lower, Upper, Lower why not train say Day 1: Chest/Shoulders. Day2: Quads, calves. Day 3: Back, biceps. Day 4: Hams, Calves. There is no need to train biceps twice in a week like the above program because you use them for everything you do in back exercises and triceps will get a massive workout from chest/shoulders. It will always be upto you and what you decide on what works for you but just a suggestion


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## BabyYoYo (Mar 7, 2008)

Hey hun

Welcome to the board first of all! 

Thought I would add my 2p's worth in - maybe have a look around on some of the other girlies journals - might give you a few ideas as to what we all do.

All the best with your goals

xxx


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## Natural1 (Mar 23, 2009)

Harry Jack said:


> To get real results you need to train your muscles to overload


Absolutely correct. Overload can be achieved through adding weight and/or reps per session, it doesn't require high volume to overload a muscle in a beginner. Body part splits like you're suggesting are usually performed for the purpose of increasing *volume* per body part and increasing recovery time between muscle groups, beginners do not need volume nor can they generate the *intensity* to necessitate 7 days recovery.



Harry Jack said:


> if your doing a program like ^^^ it will take you longer to get results than if you was to completely fatigue a muscle group in one session. Like you say you want to do Upper, Lower, Upper, Lower why not train say Day 1: Chest/Shoulders. Day2: Quads, calves. Day 3: Back, biceps. Day 4: Hams, Calves.


Your suggestion is certainly another option and there's nothing wrong with it. You say results will take longer on the routine I suggested, how so? In that routine you're training each body part 2x per week, yours is 1x per week, how is 52 growth stimulation per year greater than 104?



Harry Jack said:


> There is no need to train biceps twice in a week like the above program because you use them for everything you do in back exercises and triceps will get a massive workout from chest/shoulders. It will always be upto you and what you decide on what works for you but just a suggestion


Correct, biceps, triceps do get used in the main lifts, this is why biceps and triceps do not need a lot of direct work, my routine although biceps are hit twice, it's only with 2 sets per session, 4 sets for biceps* per week* is hardly over training.

I posted an upper/lower as that is what the OP suggested. For beginners either full body or half body splits such as upper/lower with greater body part frequency can be more productive than "blasting" a muscle once a week. A beginners priority is to:

* Get stronger on the big lifts using a simple and basic routine.

* Improve neural efficiency through strength training which will expose a greater number of motor units to tension.

* Focus mainly on the big multi-joint lifts with some isolation accessory work.

Strength gains usually come at a slower rate on high volume body part splits hence why they are usually used by more advanced lifters that have a solid strength base and increased workload capacity.


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## VforVictory (May 4, 2009)

BabyYoYo said:


> Hey hun
> 
> Welcome to the board first of all!
> 
> ...


Hey!

Will read as many journals as possible- they r very helpful (but they are long so its taking me a while to get through them hehe).


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## BabyYoYo (Mar 7, 2008)

VforVictory said:


> Hey!
> 
> Will read as many journals as possible- they r very helpful (but they are long so its taking me a while to get through them hehe).


I know sweetie! It know mine is full of rubbish! I can PM you what I do if you like xxx


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## VforVictory (May 4, 2009)

Not the best way to start the workout log, but I actually had a bad session today.

Warm up was fine and then...

On rep 7 of set 2 on the bicep curl I started to get a really intense pain in the back of my head/neck. I finished the 3x 10 but it was agony. Felt like my head was going to explode...I felt ill afterwards (I still have a splitting headache now:confused1. This also happened to me on Friday while I was doing the Leg press. I've had it before, during exercise, but never this bad. I dont seem to get it so much on free weights... I just hope it goes away soon because its disrupting everything:cursing:

Consequently the session was a bit hit and miss as some of the stuff I planned on doing made it flare up again. I ended up doing arms/ back: (will note exact weights next time)

Bicep curl -1x15, 3x10 (22kgs)

Dips - 3x10 (plate 11, was 13:thumb

Wide arm chins - 3x10

Lat pull down 3x10

Tricep pull downs and extentions - both 3x10

I had to stop at this point.

I cant get to the gym until weds because of exams :-(

Will concentrate on free weights next time.


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## Natural1 (Mar 23, 2009)

VforVictory said:


> I started to get a really intense pain in the back of my head/neck. I finished the 3x 10 but it was agony. Felt like my head was going to explode.


Found this post from another board you may find helpful.

http://www.enotalone.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1424844&postcount=7

My advice is too confirm with a doctor that there's no more serious issues just to be sure.



VforVictory said:


> Bicep curl -1x15, 3x10 (22kgs)
> 
> Dips - 3x10 (plate 11, was 13:thumb
> 
> ...


Always do back work like rows and chins before you do your direct bicep work, you need your biceps fresh for back work. Keep it up and keep us informed regarding the headaches.


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## scot.r111 (Mar 25, 2009)

VforVictory said:


> Not the best way to start the workout log, but I actually had a bad session today.
> 
> Warm up was fine and then...
> 
> ...


Hope the pains only a temporary thing, I'm sure it will be although like Natural1 says get it checked out at the docs.

Also good luck with the exam!

S


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## Jem (Mar 5, 2009)

Ditto - does not sound normal hun - hope you feel better soon !


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## VforVictory (May 4, 2009)

Appreciate the concern guys:blush:

I had a chat with my dad about it (he did a bit of BBing back in the day) and he used to get the exact same symptoms - said it was likely due to jaw/neck tension and holding my breath without realising it. I wonder if its an inherited thing?

Anyway I did some super light dumbell stuff (military press, curls, flys etc at at only 2kg) just to see how it was. It re appeared:cursing: but went away when I really focused on loosening up my shoulders (phew)

Anyway am doing legs 2morrow so fingers crossed it will be gone. If not im off the docs... :-(


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## Jem (Mar 5, 2009)

Good Luck - will keep popping in and see how you are getting on !!!


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## VforVictory (May 4, 2009)

Did legs today:laugh: I did...

squats 3x 10 (24kg)

deadlifts 4x10 (24kg)

Glute machine 3x10 each leg (40.5kg)

Calf machine 3x40ish (i think on 106kg?) Dont really feel these much.

I know the weights were low. I def could have done about 35kg on squats but was being super careful with my neck (which is still hurting but improving a lot :thumb: )

It was my first time doing deadlifts (i was a bit nervous:blush so the workout was more about form, as I really dont want to get injured!

The deadlifts showed I have major strength imbalances - my back is WAY weaker than my front, which may explain some of the neck issues.

Am hoping to even up a bit by focusing more on form over weight for a while so when I do start lifting heavier Im actually hitting the right muscle groups!

p.s. despite wussy weights am still really feeling this workout - going down the stairs is gonna be hard for a while haha!


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## Jem (Mar 5, 2009)

VforVictory said:


> Did legs today:laugh: I did...
> 
> squats 3x 10 (24kg)
> 
> ...


I agree V- concentrate on form before worrying about the weights you are lifting ....I get a bit sick of justifying lighter weights tbh - its best to learn about what your body is capable of before lugging up 60kg on your deads ! Perhaps up the reps before you up the weight again ? Go up to 12 reps next week if you dont feel like upping the weight & you will still be progressing.

Are you training with someone?

Were they stiff legged deads or normal ?

Maybe add some leg extensions in ?

40 calf raises on 106 ? - your calves will be sore tomorrow for sure - I dont know how you managed that many, I would have failed long before that :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## robisco11 (Dec 8, 2007)

VforVictory said:


> Did legs today:laugh: I did...
> 
> squats 3x 10 (24kg)
> 
> ...


good work!

getting the form right is the most important, comes way before how much weight you use. I did my legs today....i feel your pain!!


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## scot.r111 (Mar 25, 2009)

Ditto, although I did my legs yesterday. Those damn squats really hurt me the day after.....the pain...although it is a nice one.

Good luck with the neck V, it is really good you are being cautious. How did the exam go?


----------



## VforVictory (May 4, 2009)

robisco11 said:


> good work!
> 
> getting the form right is the most important, comes way before how much weight you use. I did my legs today....i feel your pain!!


Hello! Seems quite a few of us are feeling those quads burn haha! Def will stay form focused but im as stubborn as a mule so I just wanna start lifting heavier! HeHe just gotta be patient i spose....



scot.r111 said:


> Ditto, although I did my legs yesterday. Those damn squats really hurt me the day after.....the pain...although it is a nice one.
> 
> Good luck with the neck V, it is really good you are being cautious. How did the exam go?


Hey! Yeah sore legs are a def. good feeling. I think my glutes and back took more of a roasting than I thought though - Im waddling about like a penguin!

The exam went ok, thanks 4 asking  Well except for the fact that it was 3 HOURS long aaargghhh!



Jem said:


> I agree V- concentrate on form before worrying about the weights you are lifting ....I get a bit sick of justifying lighter weights tbh - its best to learn about what your body is capable of before lugging up 60kg on your deads ! Perhaps up the reps before you up the weight again ? Go up to 12 reps next week if you dont feel like upping the weight & you will still be progressing.
> 
> Are you training with someone?
> 
> ...


Hey! At the mo I train on my own. But when I did the squats/normal deads there was a really nice guy in the free weights room who was really really helpful and showed me the right technique etc. 

I dont think many girlies venture down to the free weights room - I swear some of the guys were looking at me like I had 2 heads!

Yeah im not upping the weight on deads till technique is 100%, but more reps sounds useful!

LOL my jaw drops when I read some about of the other girls lifting. But youve gotta start somewhere:lol:


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## Jacko89 (Mar 4, 2009)

good to see your still updating mate keep it up. hows the legs feeling?


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## VforVictory (May 4, 2009)

Chest and Biceps today! I keep forgetting exact weights though. I have a memory like a sieve. Will have to bring a pen with me next time...

3x10 assist chins (1x31kg, 1x28kg, 1x26kg) improving!!!!!! 

3x10 chest press (BP in free weights was mobbed)

3x10 shoulder press

3x10 on fly/pec machine thing (bloomin hard! lol)

3x10 bicep curl machine, 3x10 with DB

3x10 military press

3x10 12.5kg deltoid row things with barbell

Upper body not feeling workout at all yet which is frustrating as i was failing on some of the later reps and was trying hard :confused1: I obviously need to push myself a lot harder.

Am not finding sticking to the diet too bad, but iv never eaten so much in my life - even though Im starting to feel a bit leaner. Am expecting some major mick taking from my 5 female housemates about the protein shakes though! Oh well, i'll prove them wrong soon HaHa!


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## VforVictory (May 4, 2009)

Harry Jack said:


> good to see your still updating mate keep it up. hows the legs feeling?


Thank u:laugh: Legs are much better today, exept for being totally covered in scrapes and bruises (how attractive) from the DLs!


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## Jacko89 (Mar 4, 2009)

VforVictory said:


> Thank u:laugh: Legs are much better today, exept for being totally covered in scrapes and bruises (how attractive) from the DLs!


haha you get 'hardened' to that my shins used to take the worst beating!!you get used to it and eventually you can do it without dragging them up your legs. let em laugh because you will be the one laughing at them when your looking fiiiiiiiiiiiiine! keep it up girl, doing well.


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## VforVictory (May 4, 2009)

Back and triceps today!

3x10 wide arm chins

3x10 tricep dips (plate 10) improving!!!

3x10 upright row (plate 5 - couldnt see weight on machine:confused1

3x10 front and 3x10 back lat pulldown (plate 4- should have gone heavier)

3x10 lat raises (4kg dumbell), 3x10 tricep extensions

+30 mins cardio

Should have done more but was in bit of a rush as I have yet more exams:cursing:. Cant wait for them to be over so I have more time!!!!

Ive got to work harder because I think my heads telling me I cant get another rep in before my muscles do! Afterwards I felt like I could have kept lifting, which obv. means I had nowhere near tired myself out!


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## Jem (Mar 5, 2009)

Cant win them all V - but just keep the determination up girl ! Good Luck with your exams - been there, done that and would hate to be in your shoes right now, but healthy bod = healthy mind - let the gym focus your mind!! xx


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## scot.r111 (Mar 25, 2009)

VforVictory said:


> Back and triceps today!
> 
> 3x10 wide arm chins
> 
> ...


Wow, you do have a busy life at the moment, Jems dead right, healthy mind - healthy body (or visa versa).

Out of curiosity do you do your cardio before or after the weights?

Once again good luck with the exams, my other half is going through hers right now and I'm doing the training, you're doing both!

S


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## Natural1 (Mar 23, 2009)

I would suggest doing deadlifts with back not with legs and keeping deads and squats at opposite ends of the week.

You don't need two types of overhead presses for shoulders, may result in front deltoid burnout. They're used a lot in pressing anyhow.

How many days between training biceps and back? Fatigued biceps may be a negative on back day.

I see one or two more things that stand out but if you typed the whole routine and we would be able to offer better advice.

Well done for keeping up with the journal.


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## Inggasson (Jul 13, 2008)

Standard deads with back, SLDL with legs.


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## VforVictory (May 4, 2009)

scot.r111 said:


> Wow, you do have a busy life at the moment, Jems dead right, healthy mind - healthy body (or visa versa).
> 
> Out of curiosity do you do your cardio before or after the weights?
> 
> ...


Only 1 week and 2 days till they are all over! Cant wait! :beer: Although without the gym I think Id go mad - being stuck in my tiny room 24/7 with only notes and a highlighter for company is not much fun!

I do 10mins on the treadmill as warm up and do the 30mins cardio after weights, although its a 40minute walk just to get to the gym so I think I may just run there and back instead of slaving away on the x trainer lol!



Natural1 said:


> I would suggest doing deadlifts with back not with legs and keeping deads and squats at opposite ends of the week.
> 
> You don't need two types of overhead presses for shoulders, may result in front deltoid burnout. They're used a lot in pressing anyhow.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the advice:thumb:

When I did gymnastics we did absolutley loads of conditioning, and I think im still a bit stuck in the quantity over quality mindset!

From next weds I have no more exams :laugh: so I can actually get some structure back in my routine.

Ive been doing 3 days a week: Weds-Legs, Fri-Chest/bi's, Sun-Back/tri's with abs thrown in on off days.

Im taking a long time to recover in my lower back and quads but dont seem to be feeling lats, arms and chest very much at all - not sure if I should really push to go heavier - though i dont want bad form - or mix it up a bit, like the routine you suggested earlier:

*Day 1 *3x Squats: 5 reps, 3x Ham Work: 8 reps, 3x BB or DB Row: 8 reps

2x Bicep Curls: 10 reps

*Day 2 *3x Bench Press: 5 reps, 3x Military Press: 8 reps, 3x Tricep Isolation: 10 reps, 2x Ab/Calf Work: 15 reps

*Day 3 *3x Deadlifts: 5 reps, 3x Pullups: 8 reps, 3x Leg Press: 10 reps, 2x Biceps Curls: 10 reps

*Day 4 *3x DB or Incline Press: 8-10 reps, 3x Chest Dips: 8 reps, 3x Side Lateral Raise: 10 reps, 2x Ab/Calf Work: 15 reps

LOL sorry im a bit absent minded :wacko: at the moment as i'v been so busy, and I get confused because there are so many different things to think about!



Inggasson said:


> Standard deads with back, SLDL with legs.


Eeek... these scare me a bit hehe! But will try and give them a go on Weds (provided I can find a friendly spotter) because the hamstring curl machine is broken in my gym!



Greekgoddess said:


> Good luck with your exams!
> 
> I used to do that myself , feel I had done my last rep, then afterwards felt I could have done more while I was in the gym. I got a friend (ex pro bodybuilder) to push me through some workouts. He judged me perfectly, he stood whispering behind me and not shouting, which would have had me rebelling at the first set......... I hurt for days afterwards. Now all the motivation I need to work to failure there in my mind, I only have to think of his workouts and it pushes me to the limits!
> 
> ...


Thank you:laugh:

When I go home over the summer I can train with my Dad who is a great motivator - hopefully this will sort me out! LOL!


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## scot.r111 (Mar 25, 2009)

Hiya V,

It's great you are nearing the end of the exams, it'll be great to get back home for you.

I was asking when you did the cardio, and this is only based on my experience, because I recently changed to doing the cardio after the weights. I now feel to tire faster than when I did the cardio first. I know it sounds strange as you'd think I'd have the energy that I would have used in the cardio. I have now changed back to doing the cardio first and my weights have improved again. As you walk 40mins and a 10 mins warm up its probably nothing to do with it.

It could easily be that you are mentally drained from all the revision and exam stress. I reckon when the exams are finished and you've had some time with your dad it'll sort itself out.

You sound to be doing a fantastic job at the gym anyhow!

S


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## Natural1 (Mar 23, 2009)

VforVictory said:


> When I did gymnastics we did absolutley loads of conditioning, and I think im still a bit stuck in the quantity over quality mindset!


Force of habit is a powerful thing but you're right, lifting is very different to gymnastics.



VforVictory said:


> From next weds I have no more exams :laugh: so I can actually get some structure back in my routine.


Absolutely crucial to have a laid out solid routine that you stick to and keep a log so you know what weight and/or reps to beat each time.

Well done for sticking it, keep at it!


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## robisco11 (Dec 8, 2007)

first look at this journal

everything looks to be going well, your training looks well planned

do you train alone?


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## VforVictory (May 4, 2009)

Wednesday is Leg Day (plus a bit of bicep stuff as my arms seem to be lagging behind!) so here we go...

Squats - 3x10 40kg *pb!*

Hamstring Curl - 2x10 31kg, 1x7 41kg

Calf/Toe press thing - 2x40 104 kg, 1x30 110kg (should up the kgs on this one I think)

Lunges - 3x16 (8 each side) 12.5kg (light because of jelly legs after squats :lol: )

DB Bicep Curl - 2x10 6kg, 1x10 7kg

+ 25 mins of cardio

Was pleased with squats, maybe I should have gone for a set of 5 on 45kg or even 50kg though? Cant wait to reach 60kg!

I couldnt really find anyone to help me out with SLDL- everyone looked really busy or about as clueless as me LOL so I thought I should leave these untill I can get some input on technique etc.

Had to substitute SLDL for Hamstring curl, which was rubbish as the calf rest thing on the machine keeps slipping down :cursing:and it makes it hard to get a rhythm going!

I felt very guilty about not doing enough cardio today, its always a struggle after legs! Didnt help that I have a cold (which I think I caught in the gym changing rooms...eeewww)


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## VforVictory (May 4, 2009)

scot.r111 said:


> Hiya V,
> 
> It's great you are nearing the end of the exams, it'll be great to get back home for you.
> 
> ...


Thanks for all the encouragement and info!



robisco11 said:


> first look at this journal
> 
> everything looks to be going well, your training looks well planned
> 
> do you train alone?


Hello! 

Thanks for stopping by:laugh:

Yeah I do train alone. Its not ideal as im still learning, but there are usually a few helpful people around to give me a hand!


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## Natural1 (Mar 23, 2009)

Keep it up :thumb:


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## Jem (Mar 5, 2009)

Hi V - Just popping in ! I do cardio on seperate days now but did start off the same way as you. Just find a system that works and tweak it when progress slows up ...advice is great but we all respond differently as I am sure you know.......try everything at least twice in life is my motto !!!! x


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## Natural1 (Mar 23, 2009)

Jem said:


> advice is great but *we all respond differently*


Absolutely!


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## VforVictory (May 4, 2009)

Chest and Biceps today!

chins - 1x 10, 2x8 (26kg assist) pb for reps!

Chest Press 3x10

Overhead press 3x10

BB Deltoid Rows 3x10

DB bicep curl - 3x10 (7kg each) (think my arms were tired from the chins)

DB Flys - 3x10 (7kg each)

Aaargh im angry at myself for not doing the bench press yet again, I know its soooo much more effective than the machines! The free weights was packed and I didnt have spot so I wimped out...This will NOT happen again LOL - Its time to swallow my pride and get on with it!!!!!!!


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## Jacko89 (Mar 4, 2009)

Don't get angry at yourself thats the worst thing to do believe me i've done it and it got me nowhere just made me quite ill. your doing really well keep it all up and GET TO THE BENCH PRESS lol, get and push people out of the way or ask to jump in between their sets.


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## scot.r111 (Mar 25, 2009)

Keep at it V, you're doing great. :thumb:


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## Jem (Mar 5, 2009)

VforVictory said:


> Chest and Biceps today!
> 
> chins - 1x 10, 2x8 (26kg assist) pb for reps!
> 
> ...


*great chins --- am jealous * :rockon:


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## VforVictory (May 4, 2009)

Back and Triceps Day!

Deadlifts - 3x10 (40kg)

Assisted Wide Arm Chins - 1x10 (32kg), 1x10 (29kg), 1x7 (26kg)

Assisted Dips 3x10 (18kg)

(the chins had sapped a lot of strengh after this point LOL)

Lat Pull Down 3x10 (plate 5)

Low Row 3x10 (plate 4)

Incline Pull 3x10 (40kg)

DB Tricep extentions 1x10 (6kg each)

So pleased the wide arm chins are improving because I really find these hard!

I really need to improve my technique on deadlifts so will be staying at 40kg until I have it perfect! My shoulders keep trying to roll forwards if that makes any sense, so I have to be constantly thinking about pulling my shoulders down and back - much easier said than done LOL!


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## Jacko89 (Mar 4, 2009)

VforVictory said:


> Back and Triceps Day!
> 
> Deadlifts - 3x10 (40kg)
> 
> ...


 stick your chest out in front of you a bit more. doing well though good progress on the chins  any reason for doing a tricep exercise part way through and then another at the end? id do all your back exercises in the order you have them in and then do triceps at the end. maybe even do biceps with back instead of triceps but keep up the good work :thumbup1:


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## VforVictory (May 4, 2009)

That is a very good point - I usually do dips with chins to save queing for the machine twice (its a popular one LOL) but it does make more sense to do it in order instead! Will change this next time:thumb:.

Do you think chest/tris and back/bi's would be better then? I suppose dips work the chest too so it seems like it would make sense to swap it around!


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## Jacko89 (Mar 4, 2009)

VforVictory said:


> That is a very good point - I usually do dips with chins to save queing for the machine twice (its a popular one LOL) but it does make more sense to do it in order instead! Will change this next time:thumb:.
> 
> Do you think chest/tris and back/bi's would be better then? I suppose dips work the chest too so it seems like it would make sense to swap it around!


yeh definately do chest/tri's and back/bi's. all pushing exercises use your triceps so any chest or shoulders exercises you do will hit them. any pulling exercise will use your biceps so training your back uses biceps. you will find your triceps will be smashed from doing chest so you will only need to do a couple of really good sets to finish them off :thumb: if you have to queue for the dip machine do it off the edge of a bench so that the palms of your hands are on the bench with your back to the bench and your lowering your ass to the floor by bending at the elbow. :rockon:


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## Natural1 (Mar 23, 2009)

VforVictory

What does your entire weeks routine look like? I'm getting the feeling that right now things are a little random?


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## VforVictory (May 4, 2009)

Natural1 said:


> VforVictory
> 
> What does your entire weeks routine look like? I'm getting the feeling that right now things are a little random?


 :blush:

OK I am starting afresh from Wednesday because exams are over (finally). (I should be revising now :whistling: haha)

Am hitting the gym as soon as we get let out of the exam room! I have not been able to get there since Sunday, but that may be good thing as I still have DOMS in my back!

So no more randomness!!!!!! I promise! LOL

I am hoping to folllow something along these lines:

Mon - Back

(deadlifts, wide arm chins, lat pull down, low row, incline pull)

Weds - Chest and tris

(Bench press, dips, flys, tricep extentions or skuls)

Fri - Legs

(Squats, hamstrings, lunges, calves)

Sat - Shoulders and Biceps

(military press, curls, deltoid row etc)

Cannot decide if I should combine shoulder and chest day and go 3x a week or do 4 days instead? I dont know if 3x will be enough volume, especially considering Im not really stong enough to get a intensive workout.

I have been doing 3x a week: 1. Legs, 2. Chest/Shoulders/Bis, 3.Back/Tris, so there was some structure there, but the days and times of the workouts were random due to time issues!


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## Natural1 (Mar 23, 2009)

V.

IMO it would be better as a beginner to train muscle groups more frequently than once per week. I liked your original idea of upper/lower.


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## VforVictory (May 4, 2009)

Thanks for the advice, Natural1. :thumb:

I will try to do the upper/lower split as I had planned originally. Its so tempting to rush straight in and try to blast everything in one go, classic newbie mistake i'd imagine LOL:blush:

Anyway ill give this upper/lower routine a go and see how it works.

*Day 1 *3x Squats: 5 reps, 3x Ham Work: 8 reps, 3x BB or DB Row,

2x Bicep Curls, 3x chins

*Day 2 *3x Bench Press: 5 reps, 3x Military/overhead press, 3x Tricep Isolation, 2x Calves

*Day 3 *3x Deadlifts, 3x Wide arm chins, 3x Leg Press, 2x Biceps Curls: 10 reps

*Day 4 *3x DB or Incline Press, 3x Dips, 3x Side Lateral Raise, 2x Calves 15 reps

My only issue with this is the DB row, as I have a very arched back which is prone to injury (I got it from bad genetics and gymnastics!!!) and this type of bent over position seems to make it worse. Is there an alternative (low row maybe???) or should I just go light?


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## robisco11 (Dec 8, 2007)

VforVictory said:


> Thanks for the advice, Natural1. :thumb:
> 
> I will try to do the upper/lower split as I had planned originally. Its so tempting to rush straight in and try to blast everything in one go, classic newbie mistake i'd imagine LOL:blush:
> 
> ...


could you use a barbell or do you have the same issues? alternatively you could do single arm cable rows which isolate the same area, obviously slight different though..


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## VforVictory (May 4, 2009)

robisco11 said:


> could you use a barbell or do you have the same issues? alternatively you could do single arm cable rows which isolate the same area, obviously slight different though..


Thanks for the reply

My back doesnt seem to like any type of bent over movement unfortunatley..DB or BB:crying: Im hoping it may improve as I build a bit more strength over time. I may practice with just the bar to get it used to the motion and see if that helps.

Will try and give cable rows a go though!


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## scot.r111 (Mar 25, 2009)

Hi V,

Not checked in for a while, 

The single arm cable rows are a good idea, other than that I'd keep it light and aim to build up slowlyIMO. It's not worth doing some damage if you know there is a problem, it will strengthen over time and the ability to increase the weight should come. There's a difference between the pain you feel whe you do a good heavy set and when you feel a little fragile, as you'll already know, I wouldn't push the discomfort you're having too much. Better to be able to do some reps, even if light than none due to injury. I had a problem with my left shoulder around 4 months ago and had to keep the weights very low and slowly build up, the discomfort has gone now and the weight is back to where it should be.

I'm fairly new to BB so others will have much more experience and possibly offer better advice.

I do really admire your effort and the way you have jumped into this journal. One day I'll do it.............but not today!

Cheers

S:thumbup1:


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## Jem (Mar 5, 2009)

Post up a thread V - this will solicit the best advice hun !!!

Glad you are fine and dandy

x


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## Natural1 (Mar 23, 2009)

VforVictory said:


> Thanks for the reply
> 
> My back doesnt seem to like any type of bent over movement unfortunatley..DB or BB:crying: Im hoping it may improve as I build a bit more strength over time.


I don't know what you have access to V but you could try chest supported row which won't place too much stress on your lower back:

http://www.tmuscle.com/img/photos/2008/08-092-training/image029.jpg

Alternatively do dumbbell row with the non working arm supporting yourself:

http://www.myhomepersonaltrainer.net/eft/images/exercises/Mid-Back%20(Lats)/Dumbbell_Bent_Over_Row2.jpg

Go light say 12-15 reps and use perfect form.

If you let me know what you have access to I can rewrite the routine to suit if you wish.


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## VforVictory (May 4, 2009)

Cheers for the input guys! Really appreciate it!

Ill try out the different options tomorrow and see how it goes. Hopefully i'll find something that works!

Wish I had as much determination for uni work as I do for the gym LOL! I am the worst student ever - my exam is tomorrow, i know nothing, and yet I am still on here and wasting time by making new avatars...


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## Natural1 (Mar 23, 2009)

V.

Does your back issue effect your deadlifting also?


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## VforVictory (May 4, 2009)

It does a little bit.

My lower back was twinging slightly after deads on sunday. I think the combination of a naturally arched back and shoulders that roll forwards (and according to my physio friend at the gym, could dislocate quite easily..eeek!!!) just makes that sort of lifing hard.

I always make an effort to keep good posture on deads, hence why I dont try to lift heavy. Im hoping it will improve!


----------



## Natural1 (Mar 23, 2009)

VforVictory said:


> It does a little bit.
> 
> My lower back was twinging slightly after deads on sunday. I think the combination of a naturally arched back and shoulders that roll forwards (and according to my physio friend at the gym, could dislocate quite easily..eeek!!!) just makes that sort of lifing hard.
> 
> I always make an effort to keep good posture on deads, hence why I dont try to lift heavy. Im hoping it will improve!


Ok. I absolutely suggest for you to do *trap bar deadlifts* instead. Due to the positioning of the load there is less stress on the lower back and greater quad involvement.

http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/GluteusMaximus/TBDeadlift.html

Superb movement.. trust me.. BUT.. requires a trap bar.


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## robisco11 (Dec 8, 2007)

VforVictory said:


> Cheers for the input guys! Really appreciate it!
> 
> Ill try out the different options tomorrow and see how it goes. Hopefully i'll find something that works!
> 
> *Wish I had as much determination for uni work as I do for the gym LOL! I am the worst student ever - my exam is tomorrow, i know nothing, and yet I am still on here and wasting time by making new avatars.*..


sounds likes someone i know..... :whistling:


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## VforVictory (May 4, 2009)

:bounce:OMG Im Free! No more exams WOOOHOOOO! :bounce:

I remembered all my gym stuff (ipod, towel, protein shake, kitchen sink etc...) so I could workout straight after id finished the exam, but I forgot to bring my flippin pencil case so had to borrow a pen at the last minute. I really should get my priorities in order LOL!

Anyway I did day 1 of my new programme today, so will have to cram the other 3 sessions in by Sunday - hopefully this shouldnt be a problem.

Here we go...

Squats - 10x50kg, 8x55kg, 7x55kg (*PB*)

Hamstring Curl - 1x10, 2x9 40.5kg (*PB for reps*)

Seated calf raise/toe press - 40x110kg, 2x40 140kg (*PB*) (I just can't seem to get my calves to feel anything, only place this seems to work is my forearms :confused1: )

Supported DB row - 3x10 7kg (will go heavier next time)

Assist Chins - 1x10, 1x8, 1x7 assist 23.5kg (*PB*)

DB bicep curls 2x10 7kg, 1x 10 8kg (arms bit wobbly from chins)


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## VforVictory (May 4, 2009)

scot.r111 said:


> Hi V,
> 
> The single arm cable rows are a good idea, other than that I'd keep it light and aim to build up slowlyIMO. It's not worth doing some damage if you know there is a problem, it will strengthen over time and the ability to increase the weight should come. There's a difference between the pain you feel whe you do a good heavy set and when you feel a little fragile, as you'll already know, I wouldn't push the discomfort you're having too much. Better to be able to do some reps, even if light than none due to injury. I had a problem with my left shoulder around 4 months ago and had to keep the weights very low and slowly build up, the discomfort has gone now and the weight is back to where it should be.
> 
> ...


Aww thank u very much!

Yeah I will keep it light (not a problem since I cant actually lift heavy anyway LOL). Glad to hear your shoulder is mended too!

I had to throw myself into my jounal because I was just clueless! God knows what sort of crazy routine i'd be following if I hadnt got such great advice from everyone!

Keep up the training, sounds like your doing really great! Look forward to seeing your journal!



Natural1 said:


> Ok. I absolutely suggest for you to do *trap bar deadlifts* instead. Due to the positioning of the load there is less stress on the lower back and greater quad involvement.
> 
> http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/GluteusMaximus/TBDeadlift.html
> 
> Superb movement.. trust me.. BUT.. requires a trap bar.


 :cursing: My stinky gym doesnt have a trap bar:cursing:.

I may ask them to buy one though...you never know they may say yes! Its worth a try at least!


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## scot.r111 (Mar 25, 2009)

Well done on finishing those exams, think you did ok? Well done you!

Sort that stinky gym out....tell them you want a trap bar or else!

S


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## VforVictory (May 4, 2009)

scot.r111 said:


> Well done on finishing those exams, think you did ok? Well done you!
> 
> Sort that stinky gym out....tell them you want a trap bar or else!
> 
> S


Thanks for all the comments

Im going to email the gym today so fingers crossed!

I think the exams went ok, I probably could have done better though... partly because Ive been spending to long on here I think haha! I am just relieved to be done (and am going on a 14 bars bar crawl to celebrate :beer: - will have to pace myself lol).


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## welshrager (May 27, 2009)

wow nice progress  and exams yeah, had some myself and can stress training not about it 

aslong as u keep time for both its cool :~) and glad they are over wahey.. reps for u for nice progress


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## VforVictory (May 4, 2009)

Day 2 of new program is done!

Flat Bench Press - 1x10 20kg, 2x8 30kg *PB* (never done this with an olympic bar before and I didnt have a spotter so this was a bit scary lol)

Overhead Press - 1x10 16kg, 1x8 20kg, 1x8 22.7kg *PB *

Assist Dips - 1x8 (20.8kg assist), 2x8 (23.5kg assist) (felt really weak on these :crying: )

Hanging knee raises - 3x15 (while waiting for bench)

Behind head DB tricep extentions - 2x10 5kg (while waiting for bench)

Skull crushers (HATE that name LOL) - 1x10 7.5kg 2x10 12.5kg (arms felt very fatigued here hence the light weights)

+ 30 mins cardio

I had quite low energy levels today. Hopefully will be back to normal by Sat. workout (day 3) !


----------



## VforVictory (May 4, 2009)

welshrager said:


> wow nice progress  and exams yeah, had some myself and can stress training not about it
> 
> aslong as u keep time for both its cool :~) and glad they are over wahey.. reps for u for nice progress


Hello! Thanks for stopping by! :laugh:

Hope your exams went well! The bloomin things are so stressful!

Thanks for the reps:thumb:


----------



## robisco11 (Dec 8, 2007)

the PB's seem to be coming along nicely!!

how did the exams go btw?


----------



## scot.r111 (Mar 25, 2009)

Good for you! I know what you mean about spending too much time on here, it's addictive isn't it?! 

have a good night and take it easy in those 14 bars, remember the diet, remember the diet, nah, you only do this once, sod the diet! :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: (these represent 14 alchohol free beverages)


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## Natural1 (Mar 23, 2009)

Hi V. Did you decide to try out the routine I posted in your journal a few pages back?


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## VforVictory (May 4, 2009)

robisco11 said:


> the PB's seem to be coming along nicely!!
> 
> how did the exams go btw?


Thanks! 

The exams went ok I think, but im still dreading the results!!!. It doesnt help that I have a rubbish memory for useful information - the lights are on but nobodys home LOL! :wacko:



scot.r111 said:


> Good for you! I know what you mean about spending too much time on here, it's addictive isn't it?!
> 
> have a good night and take it easy in those 14 bars, remember the diet, remember the diet, nah, you only do this once, sod the diet! :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: (these represent 14 alchohol free beverages)


It certainly is addictive! Even more than facebook I think!

LOL we only made 6 or 7 (i think) bars in the end which was a bit of a let down, but probably a good thing in the long run!



Natural1 said:


> Hi V. Did you decide to try out the routine I posted in your journal a few pages back?


I am indeed trying out the routine you gave me!

And am just about to post my workout for today!


----------



## VforVictory (May 4, 2009)

Ok new routine day 3, here we go...

Deadlifts - 1x10 (40kg), 2x8 (45kg) *PB*

Assisted Wide Pull Ups - 3x8 (26kg assist) *PB for reps*

Leg Press - 1x10 (103kg), 2x10 (116kg) *PB*

DB Bicep Curl - 2x10, 1x7 (8kg each)

+30 mins cardio

Its quite hard to explain, but deadlifts just dont feel like a 'natural' movement for me, unlike squats which I seem to be better suited to. 45kg felt pretty easy, but I just cant get the motion to feel right even though my technique was ok :confused1: Hope the gym get in touch soon about the trap bar.

Im pleased with the PBs (exept for deads!), but still have a long long way to go untill I start building some decent strength!

Im still having fun training though, which is the most important thing I think!:laugh:


----------



## robisco11 (Dec 8, 2007)

yehh totally right, have fun and you want to keep training, dont make it a chore!!

well done on the PB's!!


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## Natural1 (Mar 23, 2009)

VforVictory said:


> Ok new routine day 3, here we go...
> 
> Deadlifts - 1x10 (40kg), 2x8 (45kg) *PB*
> 
> ...


V.

Deadlifts can take time to feel natural, keep the bar very close to your shins on the up and down motion. When you feel happier with them make them heavier and drop to the 5-6 rep range.


----------



## Jungle (Mar 9, 2009)

VforVictory said:


> Ok new routine day 3, here we go...
> 
> Deadlifts - 1x10 (40kg), 2x8 (45kg) *PB*
> 
> ...


Hey there, if you're having problems with technique on deadlifts check out some videos on youtube.

The 2 things I always drum in my head before I hit the bar is "bum out and head focused forward".

Keep up the good work! :thumb:


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## Natural1 (Mar 23, 2009)

Jungle said:


> Hey there, if you're having problems with technique on deadlifts check out some videos on youtube.


Good idea but defiantly ignore those with poor form!



Jungle said:


> The 2 things I always drum in my head before I hit the bar is "bum out and head focused forward".


Two good pointers in addition to keeping the bar close to or even gently grazing chins.

Keep going V and keep a log so you know what to beat each session!

:thumb: :bounce:


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## Jem (Mar 5, 2009)

Two good pointers in addition to keeping the bar close to or even gently grazing chins.

Keep going V and keep a log so you know what to beat each session!

:thumb: :bounce:


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## VforVictory (May 4, 2009)

Jungle said:


> Hey there, if you're having problems with technique on deadlifts check out some videos on youtube.
> 
> The 2 things I always drum in my head before I hit the bar is "bum out and head focused forward".
> 
> Keep up the good work! :thumb:


Hello!

Ill def. have a look at some vids. If only it was as easy at it looks!

Thanks for the advice! Ill def try the "bum out and head focused forward" approach!

Its a shame the bench press is directly behind the squat cage where I do deads... LOL whoevers doing the BP wont get a very pretty sight HAHA!



Natural1 said:


> Good idea but defiantly ignore those with poor form!
> 
> Two good pointers in addition to keeping the bar close to or even gently grazing chins.
> 
> ...


----------



## VforVictory (May 4, 2009)

Sundays Workout (aka day 4 of new routine)...

Incline Press - 3x10 (27kg)

Side Lateral Raises - 3x10 (6kg dumbells)

Dips - 1x10 (20kg assist) 2x10 (18kg assist)

Seated calf raise - 3x untill it burned (140kg)

+25 mins cardio

My upper body strength has not felt good this week! I dont my arms are used to all this work yet lol!


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## Jem (Mar 5, 2009)

Repped for your training and your journal is coming along really well V

Good on ya girl !

x


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## Natural1 (Mar 23, 2009)

Nice work V keep it up !


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## VforVictory (May 4, 2009)

Day 1, Week 2 of new routine:

Squats - 3x5 (60kg) *PB* :bounce:

Hamstring Curl - 3x8 (43kg) *PB*

Supported DB Row - 3x10 (10kg)

Bicep Curl - 1x10 (16kg), 2x10 (21kg)

+30 mins cardio

Was really happy with squats today, as I really wanted to get 60kg!:laugh:

Still unhappy with my biceps though, which are improving but far too

slowly for my liking! And I still have squishy sausage arms LOL


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## T.F. (Aug 28, 2008)

PB's all over the place, congratumalations girlie 

Stick with it, everything will come in time. I'm impressed with your dedication so far, you put some of my training partners to shame :laugh:


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## robisco11 (Dec 8, 2007)

congrats on the PB's

your trainings really coming on!


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## VforVictory (May 4, 2009)

Jem said:


> Repped for your training and your journal is coming along really well V
> 
> Good on ya girl !
> 
> x





Natural1 said:


> Nice work V keep it up !





T.F. said:


> PB's all over the place, congratumalations girlie
> 
> Stick with it, everything will come in time. I'm impressed with your dedication so far, you put some of my training partners to shame :laugh:


:blush:Aww thanks guys (and girls)! That means a lot to me! :laugh: So glad I joined this forum - it has helped me so much!


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## Natural1 (Mar 23, 2009)

Hi V.

I see you went for the chest supported row. How did you get on with it?


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## VforVictory (May 4, 2009)

Day 2, Week 2 was as follows...

Chest press - 1x8 (41kg) *PB*, 2x8 (37kg)

Bench Press - 3x8 (30kg)

Overhead Press - 3x8-10 (22.7kg) *PB for reps*

Skull crushers (is there another name for these?) - 3x10 (12.5kg)

Calf Raise thingy - 3xtill it burned (140kg)

+30 mins cardio

Warning....Grumpy gym rant approaching....

Got very annoyed in the gym today:cursing:

There was a group of chavs in the free weights room who were hogging the BP for AGES so I did the chest press as a substitute while I was waiting.

When they finally finished I manged to use the bench! But they were still in there doing deadlifts (FAR too heavy with AWFUL technique) and being generally very loud and rude!

Its really off putting to the other lifters who take their workouts seriously, and are not just trying to look hard in front of their mates!

Grrrrr....I think most of the sensible gym users were secretly laughing at them , but I think thay mistook it for looks of admiration! :lol:

PMSL -they all had really skinny legs though HAHAHAHA!


----------



## robisco11 (Dec 8, 2007)

VforVictory said:


> Day 2, Week 2 was as follows...
> 
> Chest press - 1x8 (41kg) *PB*, 2x8 (37kg)
> 
> ...


well done on moreeee PB's!

as for the idiots, well...every gym has them, i just tend to have a little laugh to myself when i see them, boosts my ego no end


----------



## scot.r111 (Mar 25, 2009)

VforVictory said:


> Day 2, Week 2 was as follows...
> 
> Chest press - 1x8 (41kg) *PB*, 2x8 (37kg)
> 
> ...


Well done again V, you're getting better all the time. reps. :thumb:

Try and ignore the chavs in the gym, bless them, they'll either improve or take up a new hobby. I know it's a challenge at times sharing with them but it can give you a boost, good on you for getting on with your thing regardless, it must be a bit off putting for you if they are being loud and stupid, shows a real strength of character.

Scott:thumbup1:


----------



## leafman (Feb 8, 2009)

Just want to say congrats on getting ur jounal goin. I still to this day work out 3 times a week, as u were to start with.

I do a push day (chest shoulders tris) pull day (back and bi s) and leg day. Plenty of rest in between. I know u have workout sorted now wich is all good but if u find ur self being short of time, 3 times per week to train is in my opinion a very good routine with mayb a cardio session in between. But as said already keeping it regular so u can see ur inprovements week in week out is most important. Looks to me like ur doin a really good job :thumbup1:


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## Jacko89 (Mar 4, 2009)

Nice one V workouts looking good. Hows the diet doing? Go and deadlift the weight that the chavs are doing then walk off lolololol


----------



## VforVictory (May 4, 2009)

Day 3, Week 2 new routine! Here we go...

Deadlifts -1x10 (40kg), 3x5 (50kg) PB

Wide Arm Pull Ups - 2x8(23.5kg assist) 1x8(20.8kg assist)PB

h34r:Incline Pull - 2x10 (49kg) (i know its not in my programme but the leg press was busy and I thought a few reps wouldnt hurt.... :whistling: )

Leg Press - 3x10 (122kg) PB

Bicep Curl - 2x10 (20kg)

Am still being careful with the deads, but I thought I should up the weight a bit and lower the reps today which seems put less pressure on my lower back than lots of light reps. My shins are minging though LOL - all bruised and covered in purple marks that wont go away lol!

The one good thing about being a newbie and starting out so weak is that im getting quite a lot of PBs! Im enjoying them while they last because I have a feeling they are going to start slowing down very soon!

edit: Oh yeah I forgot to say...I dropped a 20kg weight on my toe in the gym today - it dented my pride more than my toe thankfully.....


----------



## robisco11 (Dec 8, 2007)

VforVictory said:


> Day 3, Week 2 new routine! Here we go...
> 
> Deadlifts -1x10 (40kg), 3x5 (50kg) PB
> 
> ...


good workout!

i did deadlifts today and like you i usually find 'higher' rep sets of deadlifts extrmely difficult, i have no problem with the weight just a harsh feeling in my back. As for the PB's you never know, they might keep poppin up!!


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## Jacko89 (Mar 4, 2009)

nice one for the PB mate your doing well!


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## VforVictory (May 4, 2009)

robisco11 said:


> well done on moreeee PB's!
> 
> as for the idiots, well...every gym has them, i just tend to have a little laugh to myself when i see them, boosts my ego no end





scot.r111 said:


> Well done again V, you're getting better all the time. reps. :thumb:
> 
> Try and ignore the chavs in the gym, bless them, they'll either improve or take up a new hobby. I know it's a challenge at times sharing with them but it can give you a boost, good on you for getting on with your thing regardless, it must be a bit off putting for you if they are being loud and stupid, shows a real strength of character.
> 
> Scott:thumbup1:


LOL it was like having a personal comedy show between sets! Especially when they were cheering each other on HAHAHAHAHAHA! And the poor things thought they were so cool!



leafman said:


> Just want to say congrats on getting ur jounal goin. I still to this day work out 3 times a week, as u were to start with.
> 
> I do a push day (chest shoulders tris) pull day (back and bi s) and leg day. Plenty of rest in between. I know u have workout sorted now wich is all good but if u find ur self being short of time, 3 times per week to train is in my opinion a very good routine with mayb a cardio session in between. But as said already keeping it regular so u can see ur inprovements week in week out is most important. Looks to me like ur doin a really good job :thumbup1:


Hello! :laugh:

Thanks for stopping by and for the advice!

The sessions may possibly have to drop to 3 a week after september cos ill be really busy with uni/work stuff! Im def. gonna make the most of havin free time this summer!

Thanks again for the encouragement!



Harry Jack said:


> Nice one V workouts looking good. Hows the diet doing? Go and deadlift the weight that the chavs are doing then walk off lolololol


Hello! The diet is doing ok actually, although I am addicted to peanut butter and am finding it hard to resist the 1kg bucket of it in my cupboard LOL! I should really start posting about the diet though! I always forget!

I think the 'so solid crew' were attempting about 200kg  so I wouldnt like to try lol! In fact im surprised a few of them didnt leave the gym on a stretcher and wearing a neck brace!


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## Jacko89 (Mar 4, 2009)

VforVictory said:


> Hello! The diet is doing ok actually, although I am addicted to peanut butter and am finding it hard to resist the 1kg bucket of it in my cupboard LOL! I should really start posting about the diet though! I always forget!
> 
> I think the 'so solid crew' were attempting about 200kg  so I wouldnt like to try lol! In fact im surprised a few of them didnt leave the gym on a stretcher and wearing a neck brace!


Hehe good effort peanut butter is a winner. i wanna know where you get a 1kg bucket from though lol. LMAO so solid crew well it will be a while before they are as solid as you im betting lol.

Anything planned for the weekend?


----------



## VforVictory (May 4, 2009)

Natural1 said:


> Hi V.
> 
> I see you went for the chest supported row. How did you get on with it?


It was ok thanks, no back issues with either of the supported motions thankfully! I prefer the supported row to the 1 arm I think, as the 1 arm makes me feel a bit off balance!

I would still prefer to do proper BB rows because I think they are probably better at developing good stability and strength so these are still work in progress!


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## leafman (Feb 8, 2009)

I cant really advise on routine too much, but training 3 times a week has helped me loads. I dont have as much time as id like so dont have much choice. Push, pull, leg day easy as lol.

I wish u all the best and will follow progress :thumbup1:


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## VforVictory (May 4, 2009)

Harry Jack said:


> Hehe good effort peanut butter is a winner. i wanna know where you get a 1kg bucket from though lol. LMAO so solid crew well it will be a while before they are as solid as you im betting lol.
> 
> Anything planned for the weekend?


Hey!

I found it in Holland and Barretts - thought Xmas had come early lol! Its got no salt in it so it doesnt taste as nice as some of the other stuff- but its probably more healthy I suppose!

Not up to much this weekend - but will be trying to even out the tan if it stays sunny and goin out on Sat to with my housemate whos leaving! Im a lot more boring now Im training lol, cant handle late nights or alcohol any more!

U up to anything fun?


----------



## robisco11 (Dec 8, 2007)

VforVictory said:


> Hey!
> 
> I found it in Holland and Barretts - thought Xmas had come early lol! Its got no salt in it so it doesnt taste as nice as some of the other stuff- but its probably more healthy I suppose!
> 
> ...


is the peanut butter meridian? iv had the 1kg bucket before, top notch :thumbup1:


----------



## Jacko89 (Mar 4, 2009)

VforVictory said:


> Hey!
> 
> I found it in Holland and Barretts - thought Xmas had come early lol! Its got no salt in it so it doesnt taste as nice as some of the other stuff- but its probably more healthy I suppose!
> 
> ...


Eeeerrr dont like H&B!!! Salt is good for ya anyways...well real salt but its HARD to get hold of (it should be pink not bleached white). Yeh tell me about the tan, my girlfriend picked all mine off so now im white, cream, and brown coloured its strange.

I've had the whole week where i've been craving alcohol i havn't drunk since new years so im not doing too bad but i think i need a blow out soon lol. I know what you mean about not being able to handle it though. :thumb:


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## VforVictory (May 4, 2009)

Harry Jack said:


> Hehe good effort peanut butter is a winner. i wanna know where you get a 1kg bucket from though lol. LMAO so solid crew well it will be a while before they are as solid as you im betting lol.
> 
> Anything planned for the weekend?





robisco11 said:


> is the peanut butter meridian? iv had the 1kg bucket before, top notch :thumbup1:


Yeah thats the one:thumb:

Love the stuff, have to be strict with myself though or id probably eat the whole bucket LOL!


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## Jacko89 (Mar 4, 2009)

VforVictory said:


> Yeah thats the one:thumb:
> 
> Love the stuff, have to be strict with myself though or id probably eat the whole bucket LOL!


DOOOOOO EEEEEET! film it and youtube that sh!t if you do that would be hillarious to watch. is it proper gacky stuff and it stops you chewing?? lol


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## robisco11 (Dec 8, 2007)

VforVictory said:


> Yeah thats the one:thumb:
> 
> Love the stuff, have to be strict with myself though or id probably eat the whole bucket LOL!


yee i found that was my problem, its so moreish, especially with oat cakes :tongue: probably wouldnt last me 2 days, its a good job i buy the small tubs now, keeps me under control!!!


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## VforVictory (May 4, 2009)

Harry Jack said:


> DOOOOOO EEEEEET! film it and youtube that sh!t if you do that would be hillarious to watch. is it proper gacky stuff and it stops you chewing?? lol





robisco11 said:


> yee i found that was my problem, its so moreish, *especially with oat cakes* :tongue: probably wouldnt last me 2 days, its a good job i buy the small tubs now, keeps me under control!!!


Mmmm sounds good, but im a hardcore - eat it straight of the spoon  !

and LOL that vid is sooooo NOT gonna happen PMSL! I just typed peanut butter into youtube and this came up





 which is how I will look if Im not careful!!!!! :lol:


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## robisco11 (Dec 8, 2007)

VforVictory said:


> Mmmm sounds good, but im a hardcore - eat it straight of the spoon  !
> 
> and LOL that vid is sooooo NOT gonna happen PMSL! I just typed peanut butter into youtube and this came up
> 
> ...


lmao that video makes me laugh sooooo much. If laughing at fat kids is your thing, type in 'fat kid on rollercoaster' on youtube, and get the volume right up :thumbup1:


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## scot.r111 (Mar 25, 2009)

Now I see this journal has gone into the dark side of BBing, peanut butter. I hate the stuff but can eat a spoonful as part of my diet. An even darker subject is that freak of nature, cottage cheese, my other half says it's like watch a bush tucker trial when I try to eat it, it's vile. I know it's good for you but it's just not right.

Even worse is that some guys at the gym where I train mix tuna into their protein shakes! Why would they do this, just eat the tuna and then drink the shake. :tongue:

V, resist the dark side, no tuna in the shakes! :innocent:


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## Jacko89 (Mar 4, 2009)

wth?thats a fat girl!! sooooo wrong.

dont think i could handle tuna in the shakes but i shall try and let you know haha


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## scot.r111 (Mar 25, 2009)

You're a brave man Harry Jack, wrong so very wrong...


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## Jem (Mar 5, 2009)

that meridian pnut butter makes me want to heave looking at it with all the oil sitting on top of it ---tastes ok but I have to close my eyes and eat ......bleughh


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## Jacko89 (Mar 4, 2009)

mmmmm oilly food!!!


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## VforVictory (May 4, 2009)

scot.r111 said:


> Now I see this journal has gone into the dark side of BBing, peanut butter. I hate the stuff but can eat a spoonful as part of my diet. An even darker subject is that freak of nature, cottage cheese, my other half says it's like watch a *bush tucker trial* when I try to eat it, it's vile. I know it's good for you but it's just not right.
> 
> Even worse is that some guys at the gym where I train mix tuna into their protein shakes! Why would they do this, just eat the tuna and then drink the shake. :tongue: V, resist the dark side, no tuna in the shakes! :innocent:





Harry Jack said:


> wth?thats a fat girl!! sooooo wrong.
> 
> dont think i could handle tuna in the shakes but i shall try and let you know haha


LOL cottage cheese does indeed look vile...especially the watery stuff on the top! Cant believe u dont like good old PB though! May be an advantage though - u can work out ur abs by trying to keep it down!!!!

:scared: Ewww tuna in shakes......MING ALERT, MING ALERT. Sounds like something i'd feed my cat...



Jem said:


> that meridian pnut butter makes me want to heave looking at it with all the oil sitting on top of it ---tastes ok but I have to close my eyes and eat ......bleughh


LOL it was a bit of an anticlimax when I opened it and it was oilier than Vicki Pollards ponytail :lol: Still tastes gooood though!


----------



## robisco11 (Dec 8, 2007)

Jem said:


> that meridian pnut butter makes me want to heave looking at it with all the oil sitting on top of it ---tastes ok but I have to close my eyes and eat ......bleughh


you best not be bad mouthing meridian!!


----------



## VforVictory (May 4, 2009)

OK today was a weird day because I for some strange reason decided to take part in a powerlifting competition at my gym (yes I am crazy). However, it wasnt serious or anything just a bit of a laugh and I thought it would help me get some PBs. Anyway I didnt know what time it started and then found out that I was was late :blink:so had to run all the way to the gym in 15mins (its a 40min uphill walk). When I got there my legs were dead LOL! And I had to go straight to squats...NOOOOO....Anyway I did:

Squat - 72.5kgs

Deadlift - 75kg (could have gone heavier i think but ran out of lifts)

Bench - 35kg (aarghh how embarassing:blush:, arms were totally dead from Friday workout which is my only lame excuse)

Well I learnt that I really need to work on the BP because I am truly sh**e at it!!!!

Anyway I felt energised afterwards so I did my planned workout anyway which was as follows...

Day 4, Week 2

Incline Press - 3x8 (31.7kgs) PB

Assisted Dips - 1x8 (18kg assist), 2x8 (15.4kg assist) PB

Side Lateral Raises - 3x10 (6kg DBs)

Calves - 3x to burn (149kg)

+15 mins cardio


----------



## Natural1 (Mar 23, 2009)

Good things happening in here :thumb:


----------



## Jem (Mar 5, 2009)

My god everyone is lifting heavier than me....72.5 squat and 75 deads pmsl ---go go go girlie !!!


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## VforVictory (May 4, 2009)

Natural1 said:


> Good things happening in here :thumb:


Why thank you very much!



Jem said:


> My god everyone is lifting heavier than me....72.5 squat and 75 deads pmsl ---go go go girlie !!!


Aw thanks Jem!

But honestly you are doing brilliantly and I am sure that could outlift me no problem, especially in the upper body!

My leg strength only comes from being a sprinter/hurdler for 7 years (thank god for muscle memory haha) and being 1/4 welsh lol!


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## Jacko89 (Mar 4, 2009)

woooooow check those pb's out.....must be all the talk of peanut butter and tuna in shakes! good on ya girl woooooooooooooooooooo


----------



## leafman (Feb 8, 2009)

VforVictory said:


> OK today was a weird day because I for some strange reason decided to take part in a powerlifting competition at my gym (yes I am crazy). However, it wasnt serious or anything just a bit of a laugh and I thought it would help me get some PBs. Anyway I didnt know what time it started and then found out that I was was late :blink:so had to run all the way to the gym in 15mins (its a 40min uphill walk). When I got there my legs were dead LOL! And I had to go straight to squats...NOOOOO....Anyway I did:
> 
> Squat - 72.5kgs
> 
> ...


Gotta say im really poor at bench press aswell lol. Just keep at it and things will come good and get stronger :thumbup1: Good lifts 

sorry about this v but i feel the urge to tell jem off :lol: ....

jem.. stop putting urself down as im gonna come to birmingham and kick u straight in the c.u.n.t ha :whistling: haha sorry lol and mayb u would lift more if u didnt do a million reps and sets a session :whistling: U have stamina but u gotta decide what u want :thumbup1: u no i love u really hun :beer:

Sorry v couldnt help meself :tongue: Hijack over and out


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## Jem (Mar 5, 2009)

leafman said:


> Gotta say im really poor at bench press aswell lol. Just keep at it and things will come good and get stronger :thumbup1: Good lifts
> 
> sorry about this v but i feel the urge to tell jem off :lol: ....
> 
> ...


*You had best hope V loves you too - you hijacker !!! *

*Sorry V - I cannot take him anywhere* :whistling:

*& OMG I just read the top line about it being a p/lifting comp you entered - are you stark raving mad girlie * :confused1: * that is bloody brave - gotta give you nuff credit for that xxx*


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## robisco11 (Dec 8, 2007)

72.5kg squat and 75kg deadlift, top work!!!


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## Jacko89 (Mar 4, 2009)

couldnt bring myself to do tuna in a shake without a blender but as i write this im eating a tin of tuna with spicy chilli nuts in and washing it down with a shake....does that count?lol. good weekend sugar??


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## Natural1 (Mar 23, 2009)

Jem said:


> My god everyone is lifting heavier than me....72.5 squat and 75 deads pmsl ---go go go girlie !!!


Can't beat a nice and simple compound based routine for strength progression. High volume body part splits are for more advanced stronger lifters/bodybuilders looking to increase hypertrophy.


----------



## VforVictory (May 4, 2009)

Jem said:


> *OMG I just read the top line about it being a p/lifting comp you entered - are you stark raving mad girlie * :confused1: * that is bloody brave - gotta give you nuff credit for that xxx*


LOL I always was a bit of a nutcase (must be all the meridian)!

It wasnt a serious comp though - only a few of us entered and its only a uni gym! Plus I think I was the only one in my weightclass so I didnt have any competition HAHAHA (only just squeezed into the 50-60kg by 0.05 of a kilo though)



robisco11 said:


> 72.5kg squat and 75kg deadlift, top work!!!


Thanks Rob I wont be happy untill I get 100kg on both though...this may take a long time unfortunatley LOL- would be great Xmas pressie though!!!! (maybe im being slightly too ambitious LOL)



Harry Jack said:


> couldnt bring myself to do tuna in a shake without a blender but as i write this im eating a tin of tuna with spicy chilli nuts in and washing it down with a shake....does that count?lol. good weekend sugar??


Thats an interesting combo...bblleurghhhh......and ewwwwww a tuna shake without a blender= fishy lumps!!!!! Although now u have said that I wanna see u try one HAHAHAHA - major reps if u do (and provide photographic evidence!)

Weekend was good thanks, exept for Sunday night when we had a BBQ and the diet went straight out the window...oooops


----------



## VforVictory (May 4, 2009)

leafman said:


> Gotta say im really poor at bench press aswell lol. Just keep at it and things will come good and get stronger :thumbup1: Good lifts
> 
> sorry about this v but i feel the urge to tell jem off :lol: ....
> 
> ...


Thanks Leafy!

Glad to hear im not the only one who struggles with BP! Ive def got my work cut out for me but am hoping to see improvements soon! We will get there in the end!!!!!!!

No probs about the hijack - I dont like seeing Jem put herself down either cos I think she is fantastic  (and I wouldnt say it if I didnt mean it!!!)


----------



## VforVictory (May 4, 2009)

OK training time.... Day 1 Week 3

Squats - 3x8 (60kg)

Seated Hamstring Curl Thing - 3x10 (50kg)

Seated Leg Extension - 3x10 (59kg)

Supported DB Row - 3x10 (10kg DBs)

Bicep Curl Machine - 1x10, 1x8 (started failing) (22.7kg)

+30 mins cardio

Have to say was a bit dissapointed that I did not ache one bit after sundays session and the powerlifting - bloomin legs just will not get DOMS anymore...First I couldnt get my upper body to ache, now its the leggies being difficult!!!

Anyway my lower back was painful and twinging on squats today :cursing: so I thought I should stay at 60kg - I upped the reps to 8 to compensate for the lighter weight. Legs were'nt really feeling much after so I added in leg extensions in an attempt to wake my quads up....last reps were tough so I was a bit let down when I had no problems getting down the stairs at the end! The hamstring curl machine was also stuck and I couldnt shift the leg pad thing so I had to do the seated curl instead.

I think I need to start yoga classes or something because I am becoming really unflexible - I cant touch my toes anymore (not even close). I feel like an old woman LOL!


----------



## leafman (Feb 8, 2009)

Only a thought but i think if u strengthen ur triceps it can help with bench press. I think that is were my problems are coming from.

Good work out u have done there aswell. Seriously impressed with ur leg extensions. Im like a girl when it comes to legs :lol:

As for jem we all love her and think she is great 

Good journal V :thumbup1:


----------



## Natural1 (Mar 23, 2009)

VforVictory said:


> Have to say was a bit dissapointed that I did not ache one bit after sundays session and the powerlifting - bloomin legs just will not get DOMS anymore...First I couldnt get my upper body to ache, now its the leggies being difficult!!!


DOMs is completely and absolutely irrelevant for progress in the gym. It means only one thing.. you got sore. What's happened is you've gotten more 'conditioned'. When you've doubled/tripled your numbers on the big lifts you'll be one impressive/strong gal irrelevant whether you got 'sore' or not. All that matters is progression.


----------



## VforVictory (May 4, 2009)

leafman said:


> Only a thought but i think if u strengthen ur triceps it can help with bench press. I think that is were my problems are coming from.
> 
> Good work out u have done there aswell. Seriously impressed with ur leg extensions. Im like a girl when it comes to legs :lol:
> 
> ...


My triceps (well actually my arms in general) are weak, girly and useless at the moment so I really need to work hard on them! Id gladly transfer some of my leg strength to my arms if i could LOL!!!

Thanks for stopping by again!!!!:laugh:



Natural1 said:


> DOMs is completely and absolutely irrelevant for progress in the gym. It means only one thing.. you got sore. What's happened is you've gotten more 'conditioned'. When you've doubled/tripled your numbers on the big lifts you'll be one impressive/strong gal irrelevant whether you got 'sore' or not. All that matters is progression.


Well I feel a bit better about not aching now - its just that I usually judge the effort I put in by how I feel afterwards so if I dont ache I feel lazy and guilty....will have to change my mindset!



Greekgoddess said:


> Doing well there with the training. Thanks for your comments, nice of you to add them.
> 
> Keep up the good work, it will all come right in the end. Training and dieting going well for me, thank god I have found one I like!


Thanks for the comment! Training is going quite well at the moment, so Iv just got to stick at it untill I get there!

Im really pleased to hear how well you are doing too!


----------



## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

Well I came here to see whats going on, didnt find any pics, so cant comment on progress.....

Nothing really useful to add


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## VforVictory (May 4, 2009)

Training Day 2, Week 3:

Bench Press - 1x10 (bar), 3x8 (30kg), 1x5 (32.5kg)

Overhead Press - 1x10 (16.5kg) 1x8 (22.7kg), 2x8 (25kg) PB

Skull Crushers - 3x10 (12.5kg) must go heavier next time

Calves - 3x20 (95kg)

After the P/L on Sun I realised my technique on BP was a bit naff so today I made sure I took the bar right down, and did slower and more controlled reps with good form - hence why I stayed at 30kg. I moved it up to 32.5kg afterwards but I think I had done too much because my form only stayed good for 5 reps. Next time I think maybe? I should go a bit heavier and do 3x5 instead (with good form).

The OH press felt hard today. When I started my 3rd set at 25kg I failed on the first rep!!! Had to drop it right down to 16.5kg to get a decent set out!!!

I dropped the weight right down on calves and did the reps reeeealllllly slooooowly which seems to be much more effective!


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## VforVictory (May 4, 2009)

Hello! Thanks for stopping by! Sorry about the pics - I moved them to my profile page. Will be posting some new progress pics in a week or so on the journal though!


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## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

VforVictory said:


> Hello! Thanks for stopping by! Sorry about the pics - I moved them to my profile page. Will be posting some new progress pics in a week or so on the journal though!


Thats ok..

let you off this time

Dont let it happen again...

Next time I visit I would like some seriously good progress pics

Many thanks

Carry on:lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## VforVictory (May 4, 2009)

Day 3, Week 3....

Deadlifts - 1x5 (30kg) 1x5 (50kg), 2x5 (60kg)

Wide Arm Pullups - 3x8 (23.5kg assist)

Lat Pull Down - 3x8 (plate 6)

Leg Press - 3x10 (131.5kg) PB

Bicep Curl - 2x10 (18kg) very bad I know...

+30 mins cardio

Session was not good today because of lower back playing up again....It was bad on deadlifts after the warmup (30kg, 50kg) and after 2 sets at 60kg I just couldnt do any more. Its a right pain in the ar*e because I know i can go heavier and my stupid back is ruining everything....

Anyway it hurt for the rest of the session (and I now cant bend over very well lol), so it was probably stupid of me to keep going (especially on leg press).... :whistling:

Anyway its something i've had many times before and Im pretty sure its nothing serious....I really dont want to take any time off so i think i'll just have to deal with it (within reason, of course) and hope it gets better.


----------



## YoungGun (Mar 30, 2008)

Only just noticed this journal lol

I'm liking those Deadlifts, 60kg for 5 is good going.

Your stronger than you look in your avvy lol:thumbup1:


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## VforVictory (May 4, 2009)

YoungGun said:


> Only just noticed this journal lol
> 
> I'm liking those Deadlifts, 60kg for 5 is good going.
> 
> Your stronger than you look in your avvy lol:thumbup1:


Hello! Thanks for the comment:laugh:

The deadlifts are still work in progress - the bloody things nearly kill me every week LOL!!!

As for the avy...it needs work LOL (so does the wonky tan as you can probably also tell haha) . I wish I could photoshop some more muscles on to make myself look hardcore hehe!!!


----------



## robisco11 (Dec 8, 2007)

VforVictory said:


> Hello! Thanks for the comment:laugh:
> 
> The deadlifts are still work in progress - the bloody things nearly kill me every week LOL!!!
> 
> As for the avy...it needs work LOL (so does the wonky tan as you can prpobably also tell haha) .* I wish I could photoshop some more muscles on to make myself look hardcore hehe*!!!


iv been thinking i might do this...... :whistling:


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## VforVictory (May 4, 2009)

robisco11 said:


> iv been thinking i might do this...... :whistling:


HaHa! You dont need to though - your avy looks good as it is! I on the other hand need all the help I can get (especially since im posting progress pics next week arrghhh)

I may just cut and paste my head on to someone elses body...im sure nobody would notice:whistling:


----------



## YoungGun (Mar 30, 2008)

Lol don't be so hard on yourself, you still look good. I checked out your profile pics:whistling:LOL

Your looking lean which is a good start, back has a nice width, and your traps were looking good. 

Your weakest part looks like your legs, but give it time. :thumbup1:


----------



## Jacko89 (Mar 4, 2009)

That would be cheating V dont just copy and paste it why not just steal someone elses body in real life? not that you need to or anything but surely once it was done you wouldn't need to do it again like maybe paintshop you would...or just give it time and wait for it to happen lol. SIMPLES. Did ya do much this weekend?


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## VforVictory (May 4, 2009)

Training update: Day 4, Week 3

Incline Press - 3x8 (34kg) PB

Dips - 3x8 (12.7kg assist) PB

Side lateral Raises - 3x10 (7kg DBs)

Calf Raise things - 3x20 (95kg)

+30 mis cardio

I thought I should try something new on calves today because iv been having trouble getting them to feel anything....so I tried doing 20 reps reeallly sloooow on 95kg, and then instead of resting between sets did 20 reps on the lightest weight (my dad suggested trying this), and then went back to 95kg again etc etc. Well it flippin worked cos my calves were really burning!!!!! :thumbup1:

Back was fine today (exept when I tried to get out of bed this morning -OUCH!!!!)! Not looking forward to legs on Tues in case it decides to flare up again but fingers crossed it will be ok!!!!!!!!


----------



## robisco11 (Dec 8, 2007)

VforVictory said:


> Training update: Day 4, Week 3
> 
> Incline Press - 3x8 (34kg) PB
> 
> ...


fantastic work again, your PB's just arent stopping!! as for the calves i have the same problem, anything lower than 20 reps and i just dont get a feel that the muscles working at all~!!


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## YoungGun (Mar 30, 2008)

dc55 said:


> Oh hello...missed this thread.
> 
> all very interesting.....
> 
> fancy a [email protected]?? :cool2:


 FPMSL! :lol:


----------



## VforVictory (May 4, 2009)

dc55 said:


> Oh hello...missed this thread.
> 
> all very interesting.....
> 
> fancy a [email protected]?? :cool2:





YoungGun said:


> FPMSL! :lol:


 :ban: :scared: Im a good catholic girl, you know!!!!!! :innocent:

...................... :devil2: :whistling: LOL


----------



## VforVictory (May 4, 2009)

Training Day 1, Week 4

Squats - 1x10 (30kg), 3x5 (65kg)

Ham Curl - 1x8 (42kg) 2x8 (45kg) PB

Leg Extention - 3x10 (61kg) PB

Supported DB Row - 3x10 (10kg dbs) must go heavier next time

Bicep Curl - 2x10 (20kg)

Squats could/should have been heavier but back still a bit dodgy (but getting better) so played it safe.

Form started going to sh*t after 2 sets 8 ham curl at 45kg so dropped weight to 42kg.


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## YoungGun (Mar 30, 2008)

Lmao.

Dave you are a pest!! :thumbup1: Cough*Test horn* cough:lol:

It's a bit rude to ask for progress pics though Dave, any pics will be fine


----------



## Goose (Jan 29, 2009)

Dave beat me too it I must add!

BUt yes I second that.. I watn catholic pictures


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## Natural1 (Mar 23, 2009)

Come on guys V would like support in her training not "come ons" from guys. Show the lady a little respect yer? Time and a place etc..


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## robisco11 (Dec 8, 2007)

Natural1 said:


> Come on guys V would like support in her training not "come ons" from guys. Show the lady a little respect yer? Time and a place etc..


 :thumbup1:


----------



## Natural1 (Mar 23, 2009)

VforVictory said:


> Training Day 1, Week 4
> 
> Squats - 1x10 (30kg), 3x5 (65kg)
> 
> ...


Better to be safe than sorry.

I'm glad you dropped weight instead of adopting poor form.

You're doing great V keep it up mate.


----------



## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

Natural1 said:


> Come on guys V would like support in her training not "come ons" from guys. Show the lady a little respect yer? Time and a place etc..


I just popped in to demand pic too

Then I saw comments posted above FPMSL

Mate all you do is smarm on all the female journals, every one Ive been on :whistling:you have been "offereing" your expert NATTY advice:lol: :lol: :lol:

How about posting on some of the guys journals to? or wont you get a [email protected] that way:lol:

Anyway

Err doing great, cant comment without pics:thumbup1:


----------



## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

dc55 said:


> Oh behave mate. :lol: :lol: :lol:
> 
> Its called banter!!!! FFS!!!
> 
> *Anyway......she might want all the attention*???? I mean how could she resist??


Well I tell you this mate, If I join "female aerobics.sl.ut" and post my progress journal, WELL I WONT be having any funny business with birds asking me to get my "GUNS" out I can tell you..

Jw007 goes of to collate all "natural1"'s smarmy posts on female journals and start a thread:beer:


----------



## LittleChris (Jan 17, 2009)

LMAO, you really are obnoxious JW but I still love you   

(Had noticed the same thing though with Natty)


----------



## LittleChris (Jan 17, 2009)

Sorry to clutter journal, great workouts and errrm, yeah, keep it up


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## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

dc55 said:


> Just for reference...I did ask first...so all you nattys can p1ss off.....PMSL....
> 
> You too Joe, chris, goose, Adam....
> 
> Victory....(dont know name.PMSL)...PM me some shots, *I know some* *people in the* *modeling business*, I think you could make it BIG time. :thumbup1: :thumbup1:


Yeah, Fckin train spotters, and its called "HORNBYtm"

Your spare room is a shrine to "model railways"

Anyway, enough about you..

Sorry V for spamming your thread..

I woul dpost something really smarmy and suck up and kiss ar5e inth ehope you wil throw me a bone (pnar pnar)

But im not a sad BETA like *Mr NATURAL* "oooh get you" *1*

So just get some pics up eh sweetie, then the Tea aint gonna make itself..you get me??? :lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## LittleChris (Jan 17, 2009)

JW I sent you a PM- take it you too busy to reply :whistling:


----------



## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

LittleChris said:


> JW I sent you a PM- take it you too busy to reply :whistling:


Get in line BOY

On case, have several to reply too

Agian sorry again V

"add smarm here":thumb:

pS

Any "real" advice on training and nutrition etc etc,none of that "natty sh1t" just ask ok

Tea?????


----------



## VforVictory (May 4, 2009)

Wow. This journal got...ahem.....interesting:whistling:...all of a sudden!

I will post some progress pics (or lack of it...) tommorow (but only because I am committed to training and improving:innocent: :tongue: :lol: ) - Im afraid to say that they are not gonna be anything special because i swear I look exactly the same, and I just spent all afternoon trying to even out my tan and now am brown, red and white...it looks bloody awful!!!!


----------



## Natural1 (Mar 23, 2009)

jw007 said:


> Mate all you do is smarm on all the female journals, every one Ive been on you have been "offereing" your expert NATTY advice.
> 
> How about posting on some of the guys journals to? or wont you get a [email protected] that way.


Lets set a few things straight shall we.

Both the girls in the two journals I post in are following routine that I have written, hence my participation in their journals. If you track all my posts you'll see they are training related and helpful. If your rather sad one track mind has an issue with this I suggest it's your problem not mine.

Re : Shag - I think my wife of many years would have a little something to say about that wouldn't think? IS a "shag" the only reason you would offer advice to a female? That would be rather shallow wouldn't you say?

If you wonder why I don't participate in a great deal of threads on this board, it's because I post extensively on two other boards. I have a stickied thread on one where I receive many questions and PM's daily all from guys. I pity you if you feel the only reason to offer help to females is a "shag".

I hope that's set the matter straight.

Thanks V for the reps mate.


----------



## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

VforVictory said:


> Wow. This journal got...ahem.....interesting:whistling:...all of a sudden!
> 
> I will post some progress pics (or lack of it...) tommorow (but only because I am committed to training and improving:innocent: :tongue: :lol: ) - Im afraid to say that they are not gonna be anything special because i swear I look exactly the same, and I just spent all afternoon trying to even out my tan and now am brown, red and white...it looks bloody awful!!!!


Good, thats what we have all been waiting for is pics, Do you think any of us actually read your workouts (Natty dude aside :lol: :lol

Anyway, please dont comment on how or how you may or may not look, because thats our job to critisise ok???

You stick to looking pretty and posting pics, we will then discuss you indepth in the Male Animal and get back with our results:thumb:

Yes, and les of th e "tan titilation talk" it wil only serve to feed the smarmers, next minuite they will be telling you how nice your bloody tan is

Ps

Your tan is nice:lol: :lol:


----------



## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

Natural1 said:


> Lets set a few things straight shall we.
> 
> Both the girls in the two journals I post in are following routine that I have written, hence my participation in their journals. If you track all my posts you'll see they are training related and helpful. If your rather sad one track mind has an issue with this I suggest it's your problem not mine.
> 
> ...


Yawwwnn

All I saw was BLAH BLAH BLAH

Oh and wife Anypics :lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## Natural1 (Mar 23, 2009)

jw007 said:


> Yawwwnn
> 
> All I saw was BLAH BLAH BLAH
> 
> Oh and wife Anypics :lol: :lol: :lol:


May I suggest you offer V some advice or encouragement in here training journal? Keyword = training.


----------



## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

Natural1 said:


> *May I suggest* you offer V some advice or encouragement in here training journal? Keyword = training.


*NO*


----------



## Zara-Leoni (Mar 12, 2007)

Natural1 said:


> Lets set a few things straight shall we.
> 
> Both the girls in the two journals I post in are following routine that I have written, hence my participation in their journals. If you track all my posts you'll see they are training related and helpful. If your rather sad one track mind has an issue with this I suggest it's your problem not mine.
> 
> Re : Shag - I think my wife of many years would have a little something to say about that wouldn't think?* IS a "shag" the only reason you would offer advice to a female? That would be rather shallow wouldn't you say?*


Hey dont knock it.... works for me 

Anyway.... if the board wasnt full of pervs my journal would be dead :lol:



Natural1 said:


> If you wonder why I don't participate in a great deal of threads on this board, it's because I post extensively on two other boards. I have a stickied thread on one where I receive many questions and PM's daily all from guys. *I pity you if you feel the only reason to offer help to females is a "shag".*
> 
> I hope that's set the matter straight.
> 
> Thanks V for the reps mate.


LMFAO.... so many things I could say.... :whistling:

Why you think JW's journal is so busy? Handsome bugger that he is... they all want in there :lol:


----------



## Natural1 (Mar 23, 2009)

Zara-Leoni said:


> if the board wasnt full of pervs my journal would be dead


Each to their own.

I think that V should be the judge of what type of posts she feels comfortable in her journal.


----------



## Tall (Aug 14, 2007)

Natural1 said:


> Lets set a few things straight shall we.
> 
> *Both the girls in the two journals I post in are following routine that I have written, hence my participation in their journals*. If you track all my posts you'll see they are training related and helpful. If your rather sad one track mind has an issue with this I suggest it's your problem not mine.
> 
> ...


@TheSelfRighteousNatty - Your training routine is woeful and displays little knowledge of female physiology.

@TheHotBlonde - Keep up the good work. Get a better trainer. JW007 has trained a considerable number of female trainers, both experienced and new to training. His past celebrity clients include Jessica Simpson and Megan Fox. He has expertise in toning and body sculpture.


----------



## LittleChris (Jan 17, 2009)

Natural1 said:


> Each to their own.
> 
> I think that V should be the judge of what type of posts she feels comfortable in her journal.


She didn't seem to object to any of the posts though...


----------



## Natural1 (Mar 23, 2009)

Tall said:


> @TheSelfRighteousNatty - Your training routine is woeful and displays little knowledge of female physiology.


If you would like to be specific and point out any "faults" with her routine I'll be happy to discuss them with you.



Tall said:


> @[email protected] - Keep up the good work. Get a better trainer.


Not once have I claimed to be her "trainer" she simply happens to be using a routine from my thread here:

Routines for the Beginner-Intermediate Lifter.

If you have any issues I'll be glad to discuss them.


----------



## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

Tall said:


> @*TheSelfRighteousNatty - Your training routine is woeful and displays little knowledge of female physiology.*
> 
> @TheHotBlonde - Keep up the good work. Get a better trainer. JW007 has trained a considerable number of female trainers, both experienced and new to training. His past celebrity clients include Jessica Simpson and Megan Fox. He has expertise in toning and body sculpture.


Thats because hes really not that bothered about what they do, Thats not why hes here:whistling:


----------



## Natural1 (Mar 23, 2009)

LittleChris said:


> She didn't seem to object to any of the posts though...


I think that may have been partly down to embarrassment. While a tasteful laugh and compliments on progress etc is welcome by most I'm of the opinion that V doesn't feel comfortable in being offered "a shag" by complete strangers in her training journal. If I'm wrong I'm sure she'll correct me.


----------



## Natural1 (Mar 23, 2009)

jw007 said:


> Thats because hes really not that bothered about what they do, Thats not why hes here:whistling:


Obviously you have a clear issue with reading ability. I explained to you once regarding my participation in this journal. I find your one track mind truly tiresome.


----------



## Tall (Aug 14, 2007)

Natural1 said:


> If you would like to be specific and point out any "faults" with her routine I'll be happy to discuss them with you.
> 
> Not once have I claimed to be her "trainer" she simply happens to be using a routine from my thread here:
> 
> ...


I wouldn't have wasted my breath and referred to you as her trainer, yet clearly you beleive that subconsciously you have taken that role in the relationship.

Your generic routine doesn't start with the end in mind, and offers no understanding of female physiology.

Perhaps you could write a seduction generic technique article?

1. Give the lady some wine

2. Compliment her.

3. Repeat Steps 1 and 2 until consensual agreement to engage in licentious behaviour has been agreed.


----------



## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

Natural1 said:


> Obviously you have a clear issue with reading ability. I explained to you once regarding my participation in this journal. I find your one track mind truly tiresome.


anyone esle understand this???

Me?? all I get is Blah Blah yawwwwwn Blah

Clearly my reading ability is at fault:lol: :lol:


----------



## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

Tall said:


> I wouldn't have wasted my breath and referred to you as her trainer, yet clearly you beleive that subconsciously you have taken that role in the relationship.
> 
> Your generic routine doesn't start with the end in mind, and offers no understanding of female physiology.
> 
> ...


If he asks for a [email protected] it would negate all said horseplay and games???


----------



## Tall (Aug 14, 2007)

jw007 said:


> If he asks for a [email protected] it would negate all said horseplay and games???


He'd make it abundantly clear he was infact a cad / balding lothario whose sole intention was to engage in lascivious behaviour, however I would suggest his experience and savoir faire would be lacking in this regard.


----------



## Natural1 (Mar 23, 2009)

Tall said:


> I wouldn't have wasted my breath and referred to you as her trainer, yet clearly you beleive that subconsciously you have taken that role in the relationship.


Does that mean that ANYONE that offers routine advice here assumes the role of a "trainer"? Funny, I was under the impression that helping others is what the board was here for in the first place.



Tall said:


> Your generic routine doesn't start with the end in mind, and offers no understanding of female physiology.


And as I previously said to you, if you offer an actual reason why the routine is "incompatible" with the female physiology I'll be glad to discuss it. As of now all you've done is made a claim which you cannot substantiate.

How strange that the ONLY person prepared to offer a routine is the ONLY person being mocked.. on a TRAINING forum. A little "sad" wouldn't you say.


----------



## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

Natural1 said:


> Does that mean that ANYONE that offers routine advice here assumes the role of a "trainer"? Funny, I was under the impression that helping others is what the board was here for in the first place.
> 
> And as I previously said to you, if you offer an actual reason why the routine is "incompatible" with the female physiology I'll be glad to discuss it. As of now all you've done is made a claim which you cannot substantiate.
> 
> How strange that the ONLY person prepared to offer a routine is the ONLY person being mocked.. on a TRAINING forum. A little "sad" wouldn't you say.


Im sorry Mr Natty (see Roider Dictionary for Natty discription, Its a sticky in steroid section:whistling

Someone pointed out to me that you have a "STICKY":whistling: on another board:lol: :lol:

As such I apologise if any of my comments were seen to be rather harsh or crass in anyway....

Should have said you had a "sticky" in fact you should prob have pointed that out in your 1st post on these female journals, as without that, clearly I got the wrong idea


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## Goose (Jan 29, 2009)

C'mon now guys... lets not forget why we are here.. to help with V training and of course.

PHOTO's


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## Jem (Mar 5, 2009)

Erm V - your journal is hotting up somewhat ....I think perhaps you are not currently at a photoshoot but hiding in a corner! All good fun girl

Emma x


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## Natural1 (Mar 23, 2009)

Jem said:


> Erm V - your journal is hotting up somewhat


Jem.

It was never my intention to be part of this "hotting up" of V's journal. The very fact that I attempted to redirect the subject matter back to training after a few rather "inappropriate" posts were made proves this. It's unfortunate there's a few male members that are more interested in drooling over pics and asking for "a shag" then in actually helping V with her training and diet.


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## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

Natural1 said:


> Jem.
> 
> It was never my intention to be part of this "hotting up" of V's journal. The very fact that I attempted to redirect the subject matter back to training after a few rather "inappropriate" posts were made proves this. *It's unfortunate that I am more interested in drooling over pics and asking for "a shag" then in actually helping V with her training and diet*.


 :whistling:


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## Natural1 (Mar 23, 2009)

jw007 said:


> :whistling:


I see what you did there, edited my original post to suit your agenda. Clever.. Well done.


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## Goose (Jan 29, 2009)

Lol that was quite good.

No in all fairness this is bodybuilding and without said pictures its hard to determine whether she is doing well or not. Lifts may be getting better but does not mean her physique is. A lot will be determined by diet, cardio and of course drugs


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## Jem (Mar 5, 2009)

Hi - Well she can either see the funny side or take the moral high ground Natural1.

Yes it is a training journal & as such should contain training but arent you entitled to have a bit of a giggle as well ?

It just makes it more interesting IMO

V is not here to comment but I dont think she is crying in a corner to be fair ....

Well I hope not !

I dont think anyone is pestering her sexually ...its a wind up really ...all the journals contain silly stuff ....as long as that person is working hard in the gym themselves and taking the advice where they need to then I dont see the need to get your knickers in a twist over a couple of comments. None of them were derogatory towards V anyway.

If she tells everyone to fook off out of her journal I am quite sure they will oblige but it's you keeping them entertained at the moment tbh !!!!!


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## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

Natural1 said:


> I see what you did there, edited my original post to suit your agenda. Clever.. Well done.


THANKS:thumb: Means a lot coming from you:whistling:

Somehow, However, I get the incy wincy smallest feeling you may not have been 100% sincere????????

Perhaps thats just the way I read all your posts tho:whistling:


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## Natural1 (Mar 23, 2009)

Jem said:


> Hi - Well she can either see the funny side or take the moral high ground Natural1.
> 
> Yes it is a training journal & as such should contain training but arent you entitled to have a bit of a giggle as well ?


I've never suggested that there's anything wrong with a "bit of a giggle" however the truth is some women would feel a little uncomfortable at strangers asking for a shag. Whether V is or not I don't know but come on.. time and place.. She may even have a bf.. Perhaps good manners is "old fashioned" now huh.



Jem said:


> If she tells everyone to fook off out of her journal I am quite sure they will oblige


I'm sure V doesn't want anyone to leave but perhaps the subject material a little more back on track.



Jem said:


> but it's you keeping them entertained at the moment tbh !!!!!


It's not my problem if these guys have an issue with good old fashioned respect and manners.


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## Natural1 (Mar 23, 2009)

jw007 said:


> THANKS:thumb: Means a lot coming from you:whistling:
> 
> Somehow, However, I get the incy wincy smallest feeling you may not have been 100% sincere????????
> 
> Perhaps thats just the way I read all your posts tho:whistling:


I see you have an issue with drug free lifters. Shame.


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## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

Look

Ive got drugs to take, so wont be around for a while

All I will say is

"has MR Natty" pmed you (or any other females) offereing "free 1 on 1 training" LMFAO

If answer is yes.....

I rest my case 

I would suggest however any Fit birds take DC55 up on his offer, as I can vouch for the stud 

Ps Mr Natty

No disrespect but your physique from you avvy seems, how can I put this "woefull"

Could you please post up a full body pic, not just a baby tricep, so we can see you realy do know your stuff 

Thanks in advance

Hulk


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## Jem (Mar 5, 2009)

Natural1 said:


> I've never suggested that there's anything wrong with a "bit of a giggle" however the truth is some women would feel a little uncomfortable at strangers asking for a shag. Whether V is or not I don't know but come on.. time and place.. She may even have a bf.. Perhaps good manners is "old fashioned" now huh.
> 
> I'm sure V doesn't want anyone to leave but perhaps the subject material a little more back on track.
> 
> It's not my problem if these guys have an issue with good old fashioned respect and manners.


*We live in 2009 not 1909 though .....men and women are slightly more forthcoming in this day and age...if V has walked down a street before/been in a pub/used public transport [heaven forbid!], I feel quite sure that at some point a fellow may have asked her if she fancied a shag ...it's the way of the world whether she has a b/f or not ....*

*Well - to come across it on the internet - surely not ? who'd have thought it ??? *

*If your sentiment is real, then cute & well done - you are original & rare - call me a cynic - its not my reality !*


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## Natural1 (Mar 23, 2009)

dc55 said:


> Do you get out much mate?? :cursing:
> 
> :lol: :lol:


Oh dear. Feeling the need to attack me on a personal level due to lacking a substantial response. Do I get out..? what part of "there's a time and a place" did you not understand?


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## Goose (Jan 29, 2009)

I only saw the Sh4g part after the jesting had taken place.. not before so it was obviously meant to be taken as a joke!!! SERIOUSLY! lol

Anyway V hope trainings going well.. any update?


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## Natural1 (Mar 23, 2009)

jw007 said:


> Look
> 
> Ps Mr Natty
> 
> ...


More personal attacks due to lacking anything substantial. You say I have a poor physique yet say all you see is a tricep.. mm..

Maybe if used a few of your "special supplements I'd look more like you right?

A steroid user mocking a lifetime natty lifter is about as sad as it gets.



Jem said:


> *We live in 2009 not 1909 though .....men and women are slightly more forthcoming in this day and age...if V has walked down a street before/been in a pub/used public transport [heaven forbid!], I feel quite sure that at some point a fellow may have asked her if she fancied a shag ...it's the way of the world whether she has a b/f or not ....*


As I said.. There's a time and a place. I am not of the opinion that a training journal is it.


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## Goose (Jan 29, 2009)

Natural1 said:


> More personal attacks due to lacking anything substantial. You say I have a poor physique yet say all you see is a tricep.. mm..
> 
> Maybe if used a few of your "special supplements I'd look more like you right?
> 
> A steroid user mocking a lifetime natty lifter is about as sad as it gets.


I dont think JW said you had a poor physique but was merely interested in seeing a full body shot to show that you have the knowledge of training and can apply it to yourself personally. :thumbup1:


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## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

Natural1 said:


> More personal attacks due to lacking anything substantial. You say I have a poor physique yet say all you see is a tricep.. mm..
> 
> Maybe if used a few of your "special supplements I'd look more like you right?
> 
> ...


Your grasp of english language is nearly as bad as your smarm:thumb:

No personal insults, I "intimated" from the small view on your avvy that your physique "SEEMED" sub par

And then I gave you every oppurtunity to rectify my intimations, as incorrect as they may be

Why did you not quote the bit about you "offereing" 1 on 1 personal training :whistling:

Who said I took steroids?? Is that a personal attack?? An assumtion, veiled with venom:cursing: :cursing:

When I said I took "DRUGS" i am a diabetic and need insulin

Shame on you:cursing: :cursing:


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## Natural1 (Mar 23, 2009)

jw007 said:


> No personal insults, I "intimated" from the small view on your avvy that your physique "SEEMED" sub par


I didn't know my physique was on trial.



jw007 said:


> Why did you not quote the bit about you "offereing" 1 on 1 personal training :whistling:


I didn't think it a worth while argument.

Are you seriously going to deny your use of anabolics?



jw007 said:


> *I like to start high and get all negatives out way 1st, then reduce dose accordingly PMSL..*
> 
> *
> *
> ...





jw007 said:


> *Trouble is tren does not make me angry, Bit dissapointing really*
> 
> *
> *
> ...


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## Uriel (Oct 14, 2008)

Just looked in but as it's already full of sex pests, theres' no room for me


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## Goose (Jan 29, 2009)

Uriel said:


> Just looked in but as it's already full of sex pests, theres' no room for me


Theres always room for you


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## Natural1 (Mar 23, 2009)

dc55 said:


> I wouldnt class that as a tricep mate!!! :cursing:


I also don't suffer "itchy nips"



dc55 said:


> HELP!
> 
> *A week ago i got quite itchy nips and i couldn't get to any nolva till monday. *
> 
> ...


While I have absolutely no issue with Steroid users (personal choice) I do find anabolic users mocking lifelong natural lifters rather sad. Maybe a tad "insecure"


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## Titchy Dan (May 14, 2009)

Who needs television when you have a forum like this...........

although not a female, I wish i was propositioned for a shag.......


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## Ken Hutchinson (May 29, 2009)

Just found this thread, is it ok for me to watch this verbal jousting, it's looks good fun, i would like to join in but you wordsmiths put me to shame.

ps any pics.


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## Goose (Jan 29, 2009)

Siht man! you seem to get in there first everytime!! when do I get a turn?!


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## Titchy Dan (May 14, 2009)

dc55 said:


> Fancy a bum?? :thumb:


  you embarass me kind sir......


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## LittleChris (Jan 17, 2009)

:lol:

This is most amusing.

Seems to me that not only is he V's personal trainer, he is also her spokesman. I get the feeling his "wife" (doubt she exists) is kept under lock and key! :2guns:


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## Natural1 (Mar 23, 2009)

dc55 said:


> And neither do I???? I just have nice boobs instead!! :thumb:
> 
> Are we really going to get into "searching" peoples posts?? :lol: :lol:...lets really not get into that!!


Look. I have no issue with drug users. What I will take issue with is drug users mocking a drug free lifter purely for the reason that I display better forum manners. is it ok for you to mock a lifelong natty but not ok for me to quote one of your steroid posts? Double standards?


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## Natural1 (Mar 23, 2009)

LittleChris said:


> :lol:
> 
> This is most amusing.
> 
> Seems to me that not only is he V's personal trainer, he is also her spokesman. I get the feeling his "wife" (doubt she exists) is kept under lock and key! :2guns:


If you notice I am no longer "speaking in behalf" of V but defending myself against personal rather immature attacks based on the simple fact that I simply out of respect for V requested a few pages ago that we stay on topic.

More personal attacks against me. How very sad.

V I do apologies for what's happened to your journal. I now find myself on the defense of personal attacks to my nature and physique for the simple reason that I suggested a few pages back that we stay on topic.. My apologies V.


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## ba baracuss (Apr 26, 2004)

Natural1 stop biting mate ffs 

If you want to actually learn something or talk seriously about training you're on the wrong board - especially in a bird's journal.

It's pure innuendo in every one so if you don't like that, find another board. Most girls love the attention so I wouldn't worry about anyone being offended.


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## Titchy Dan (May 14, 2009)

I will say this for "Natural1" and that is I think he was just trying to keep on topic and just saying that a young lady might take offense. However, had the "[email protected]" remark been taken in the context it was said I think we wouldnt need all this (as entertaining as it is)

Personally, I think V looks amazing and its alittle ridiculous to think none of us dont think about it when we see a good loking girl.

Save yourselve Natural1 - let her speak for herself. If V comes on and says, guys i dont like that comment then fine.

We are on an adult forum not in kindergarten........


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## LittleChris (Jan 17, 2009)

*NATTY*

a bodybuilder who does not do gear (see also small, scum, pretend bodybuilder)

Large misconception that it derives from 'Natural' but in fact derives from 'gnat' i.e. the small buzzing annoying thing that pops up whenever there's a conversation about drugs.

Swatting a natty is an Alpha Roider pastime. :thumb:

http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/steroid-testosterone-information/63543-roiders-dictionary-9.html


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## Natural1 (Mar 23, 2009)

Titchy Dan said:


> I will say this for "Natural1" and that is I think he was just trying to keep on topic and just saying that a young lady might take offense.


Bingo. I had no idea that a simple suggestion with honorable intention would spark off such a saga.



Titchy Dan said:


> Save yourselve Natural1 - let her speak for herself. If V comes on and says, guys i dont like that comment then fine.


As I mentioned, at this point I am no longer talking for V but rather defending myself from personal attacks from "roiders".


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## Natural1 (Mar 23, 2009)

LittleChris said:


> *NATTY*
> 
> a bodybuilder who does not do gear (see also small, scum, pretend bodybuilder)
> 
> ...


What your saying is that while I have no issue with the personal choice that steroid users have in using, you have no respect for those that wish to be the best they can be naturally? This is a very sad state of affairs wouldn't you say?


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## VforVictory (May 4, 2009)

OMG what the hell is going on in here????? :scared: Major journal hijack in progress!!!!!!!!

I dont know what to say to be honest! :confused1:

I dont like conflict so Im not taking any sides..........and I dont think there is a right or wrong answer here.

I do appreciate the sudden interest in the journal!!!!! And thanks to everyone who has posted on it (makes it much more interesting:lol

I dont mind a few jokes on the journal - like I have said I don't take myself too seriously and I dont have a problem with a few cheeky posts here and there, as long as they are done in a lighthearted way and are not offensive to anyone!!!!!!

......BUT I dont like mean or personal attacks on anyone...its not very nice and everyone should be able to give their opinion without being ganged up on!!!!!!!

Please Be Nice!!!!!!!!!!! :innocent: (especialy to natural1 because he has been very helpful from the start and I appreciate it a lot - and no he has not sent me any dodgy PMs for the record)

Cant we all just get along????????????


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## VforVictory (May 4, 2009)

Better post some training to change the subject:whistling:

Training Day 2, Week 4

Bench Press - 1x10 (20kg) 3x8 (32.5kg)

Overhead Press - 3x8 (25kg)

Skulls - 3x8 (17.5kg)

Calves as before

Hanging knee raises - 3x15


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## Natural1 (Mar 23, 2009)

VforVictory said:


> I dont mind a few jokes on the journal - like I have said I don't take myself too seriously and I dont have a problem with a few cheeky posts here and there, as long as they are done in a lighthearted way and are not offensive to anyone!!!!!!


Fair enough V.



VforVictory said:


> ......BUT I dont like mean or personal attacks on anyone...its not very nice and everyone should be able to give their opinion without being ganged up on!!!!!!!


Absolutely.



VforVictory said:


> Please Be Nice!!!!!!!!!!! :innocent: (especialy to natural1 because he has been very helpful from the start and I appreciate it a lot - and no he has not sent me any dodgy PMs for the record)


Thank you for confirming that, appreciated.

I think the best thing would be for this journal to get back on topic and for anyone with any suggestions on how to improve your routine to post their thoughts and quit the mocking.

It's been said that the routine "isn't suitable for the female" yet nothing to substantiate that assertion has been presented. I disagree and await for the poster to offer some sound suggestions.


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## Natural1 (Mar 23, 2009)

VforVictory said:


> Better post some training to change the subject:whistling:
> 
> Training Day 2, Week 4
> 
> ...


I've been meaning to ask you V. How do you find over head pressing after bench work?


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## Goose (Jan 29, 2009)

Mate its all tongue in cheek! take a joke seriously and move on.. forget about it.

Build a bridge and get over it


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## Goose (Jan 29, 2009)

V - wheres the pictures :lol:

Sorry just HAD to ask 

Good benching girl.


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## VforVictory (May 4, 2009)

Well i suppose I should post the pics then - I really dont know what all the fuss is about though LOL - they wont be anything special I can promise you that!!!!!

Felt like a right spanner trying to take them LOL! And the reason for having my face cut off is that I had just got back from training and looked all sweaty and like crap

Anyway I still look about as muscular as a doughnut so I know I have a very long way to go. The abs need a lot of work too, so does overall BF% but I'v only been training for about 8 weeks so I suppose I shouldnt expect too much - iv def. build a lot more strength so Im getting more out of training too! I havnt got a back pic yet, will get one up soon, as well as a better shoulders pic.


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## Natural1 (Mar 23, 2009)

dc55

Instead of me making a reply to your post. I'll just remind you that V would like the subject matter changed. Thx.


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## Natural1 (Mar 23, 2009)

You have an excellent base/foundation to work with V. You hit the nail right on the head. Many new lifters under estimate the importance in getting stronger. I'm always hearing new lifters say that their not worried about getting strong just gaining mass. I always ask them how they expect to gain lean muscle with getting stronger. Too many start off with high volume body part splits and end up lifting the same weight next year as they are now. A decent strength foundation is paramount. Good to see your training goals/priorities are in order. Good stuff.


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## Magic Torch (May 30, 2005)

Where in Herts do you train V? Looking good in the pics, nice quater turn.


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## YoungGun (Mar 30, 2008)

PMSL the way this thread has gone. Personally i'd take what DC55 said as a compliment, i'm not even gay but would still bum him

Anyway, on topic, pics are looking good.

I wouldnt really worry about your bodyfat, your quite lean already and have only been training 8 weeks.

You can certainly tell you train, so i'd be quite proud of what youv'e acheived so far

You look good, everything seems in proportion also:thumbup1:

Keep it up.


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## Goose (Jan 29, 2009)

Great pictures.. you have an excellent base already!


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## Natural1 (Mar 23, 2009)

V.

One suggestion I will make (and tend to suggest for females) is to do your bench pressing on a slight incline.


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## Goose (Jan 29, 2009)

Natural1 said:


> V.
> 
> One suggestion I will make (and tend to suggest for females) is to do your bench pressing on a slight incline.


Can I ask why? Not disagreeing, just interested to know and im sure V may want to aswell.


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## Jem (Mar 5, 2009)

Well done and - Wow V - what a stunner ! you are lovely and lean, you look great. Do you intend to compete ?

Emma

xx


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## Natural1 (Mar 23, 2009)

Goose said:


> Can I ask why? Not disagreeing, just interested to know and im sure V may want to aswell.


Incline movement is less wear and tear on shoulder. Also, a vastly developed lower chest isn't desirable for females in my opinion. Unless they are a competing female bodybuilder obviously.


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## Goose (Jan 29, 2009)

Natural1 said:


> Incline movement is less wear and tear on shoulder. Also, a vastly developed lower chest isn't desirable for females in my opinion. Unless they are a competing female bodybuilder obviously.


Hmm that is debatable to be honest. I would say Incline puts more stress on my shoulders than flat or decline.


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## LittleChris (Jan 17, 2009)

:lol:

Would say the same as well from experience but will leave it at that.

Looking in fine shape V. You have a "great base" to work with. Look cute as well :thumb:

With Natural behind you (no pun intended :lol: ) you will go a long way


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## Ken Hutchinson (May 29, 2009)

Well now were back on track, i would like to say looking good V keep up the good work, Natural1 what sort of incline were you thinking of 30-35 degrees maybe.


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## Natural1 (Mar 23, 2009)

Goose said:


> Hmm that is debatable to be honest. I would say Incline puts more stress on my shoulders than flat or decline.





dc55 said:


> What i thought! Incline bench will target front delts more than flat/decline! If only by a small amount.
> 
> Surely the more the incline, the more the delts get involved!!!


Absolutely, inclines do alter the load slightly from over all pec to upper pec deltoids. I wasn't referring to muscular stress on the delts

In my experience incline press (slight incline) causes me less agro to the rotator cuff. Though this maybe an individual thing due to bio-mechanics.

The fact that an incline press is typically performed with less weight than flat pressing, this in itself is less "wear and tear"

The main reason I suggest for females to perform slight incline is because an over developed lower chest isn't desirable in women.


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## ElfinTan (May 23, 2008)

But it could be argued that any kind of over developement in a female is undesirable :0) From a female point of view I would want my overall developement to be complete and I have expecially found that as I am not Busty Bertha with mega dolly knockers that my pec development as a whole has done wonders....no other way with an A cup that you get a cleavage without major scaffolding. I like to use the full range, decline/incline & flat for both pressing and flies. I agree that flat benching can be a major cause of RC problems though....but what can I say....I like benching and I like the results!

V - gorgeous shape to hams and quads. I'd suggest some targeted glute work as I think that that nice behind of your will respond really well and you could get the nice 'pop' out of the glutes!


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## Natural1 (Mar 23, 2009)

dc55 said:


> 'mr natty' i would suggest that if your getting to much grief on your rc joint while flat benching, then your technique could do with being looked at. Your most probably too high ie too far above nipples. Also your elbows might be flaring out. Just my thoughts....but ofcourse this will be impossible to tell without me seeing you do it!


I'm aware of the various benching styles and have for some time lowered the bar to lower chest and most definitely not to upper or neck.

This is my view on flat vs incline:

If a routine included dips (which this one does). It makes sense to bench on an incline as dips target the MUs in the lower chest very effectively.

Dip - overall pec emphasis on lower

Flat bench - over all pec

Incline - emphasis on upper.

You see how dips and incline combination hit the chest in a very balanced way.

Again, nothings set in stone. Just a suggestion.


----------



## robisco11 (Dec 8, 2007)

good progress, coming along nicely!


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## VforVictory (May 4, 2009)

Magic Torch said:


> Where in Herts do you train V? Looking good in the pics, nice quater turn.


Thanks for the comments

I actually train at my uni gym as im not in herts during term time! I cant decide whether to find a gym in herts (in wel/hat/stevo area) to train at over the summer though or just use my dads bench/free weights and chinning bar.



Jem said:


> Well done and - Wow V - what a stunner ! you are lovely and lean, you look great. Do you intend to compete ?
> 
> Emma
> 
> xx


Aww thats very nice of you:blush:

Well i would love to compete at some point, mainly because I like having a goal to work towards to keep me motivated. I dont know how long it will take me to be honest - may have just enough muscle by 2020 LOL:lol:



ElfinTan said:


> But it could be argued that any kind of over developement in a female is undesirable :0) From a female point of view I would want my overall developement to be complete and I have expecially found that as I am not Busty Bertha with mega dolly knockers that my pec development as a whole has done wonders....no other way with an A cup that you get a cleavage without major scaffolding. I like to use the full range, decline/incline & flat for both pressing and flies. I agree that flat benching can be a major cause of RC problems though....but what can I say....I like benching and I like the results!
> 
> V - gorgeous shape to hams and quads. I'd suggest some targeted glute work as I think that that nice behind of your will respond really well and you could get the nice 'pop' out of the glutes!


Thanks alot for the comment! :laugh:

I think im genetically predispositioned to have a mahooosive a*se - my dad used to be nicknamed "the continental shelf" :lol:

Mine could definatly do with some firming and sculpting though, so I will definatly try and incorporate some glute work!


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## VforVictory (May 4, 2009)

Greekgoddess said:


> Tan, you have a great way with words , still *giggling like a schoolgirl* at Mega Dolly Knockers...... I agree with you on overall development. When you start dieting down for a contest you are glad of all the cleavage you can get, even if people do ask what the striations are.........


:laugh: LOL me too! I cauldnt stop laughing!!!!!


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## Guest (Jun 24, 2009)

jw007 said:


> Well I came here to see whats going on, didnt find any pics, so cant comment on progress.....
> 
> Nothing really useful to add


Come on... You gave me heaps loads of help with my avatar picture... got the oil all ready


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## VforVictory (May 4, 2009)

About the benching....

I havnt had any major issues as yet, but I cant really lift heavy yet, so I may find I get some problems later on which I will keep an eye out for.

The only annoying thing is that my back wont flatten on the bench - its permanently arched unless I lift my feet of the floor.

I suppose I should just try out a few different things and see what works best.


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## robisco11 (Dec 8, 2007)

VforVictory said:


> About the benching....
> 
> I havnt had any major issues as yet, but I cant really lift heavy yet, so I may find I get some problems later on which I will keep an eye out for.
> 
> ...


i have the same problem, theres always a slight arch! i do sometimes lift my feet off the floor, just play around with a few different approaches.


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## Natural1 (Mar 23, 2009)

VforVictory said:


> The only annoying thing is that my back wont flatten on the bench - its permanently arched unless I lift my feet of the floor.
> 
> I suppose I should just try out a few different things and see what works best.


Keep feet on floor and maintain arch. As dc said, lower back shouldn't be completely flat on the bench while benching.

All's fine so long you progress. If you stall, mention it and I'm sure you'll be offered some good plateau blasting advice.


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## YoungGun (Mar 30, 2008)

Interesting, i didn't know you go Herts uni.

My mate goes there, studying physio, what you doing?


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## Titchy Dan (May 14, 2009)

I would say there is no way in this world that you have a massive **** V.

Your pictures look fantastic and I am really looking forward to seeing your progress. Think you look stunning already so God knows what we`ll end up with.

Keep it up, fantastic physique to kick start with. Looking superb!


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## miles2345 (Mar 26, 2008)

if that isnt a good starting point i dont know what is!! look great, nice small waist, some shape in the legs, both quads n hams, so if you want to build some muscle you can probably get away with eating a little more than most and still stay in good condition


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## Magic Torch (May 30, 2005)

VforVictory said:


> Thanks for the comments
> 
> I actually train at my uni gym as im not in herts during term time! I cant decide whether to find a gym in herts (in wel/hat/stevo area) to train at over the summer though or just use my dads bench/free weights and chinning bar.


There is a really good gym on the Hatfield Uni campus (I trained there when at Uni there) you may be able to use that cheap as you will have an NUS card.

There are quite a few gyms in south herts - Cheshunt, St Albans, Barnet not too sure about north of Hatfield tho, never venture that far lol


----------



## VforVictory (May 4, 2009)

Just to say thanks for all the nice comments! 

Hopefully will start looking much better soon (and il try and get a decent back picture up by monday)

Training Day 3, Week 4

Deadlifts - 1x5 (40kg), 3x5 (60kg)

W/Arm Chins - 3x8 (20.8kg assist) pb for reps

Lat Pull Down - 3x8 )plate 6)

Leg Press - 3x10 (140kg) pb

+20 mins cardio

Because im an idiot I forgot to do bicep curls today - dont really know how or why..... :stupid: May have to try and improvise with some household objects later on LOL

Deadlifts felt good today, no back problems:bounce: and weight felt quite easy. As with squats on weds, did not try and go heavier just to be careful. Hopefully will start upping the kgs next week!


----------



## VforVictory (May 4, 2009)

YoungGun said:


> Interesting, i didn't know you go Herts uni.
> 
> My mate goes there, studying physio, what you doing?


Oh im not at Herts uni, (a lot of my friends are though) i am from herts though. Wish i did go there sometimes though LOL. It would mean I could use the gym all year round and wouldnt have to pay for accomadation so I could afford a car.....



Magic Torch said:


> There is a really good gym on the Hatfield Uni campus (I trained there when at Uni there) you may be able to use that cheap as you will have an NUS card.
> 
> There are quite a few gyms in south herts - Cheshunt, St Albans, Barnet not too sure about north of Hatfield tho, never venture that far lol


Thanks! Thats a really good idea - ill def try out the uni gym (think the discounts only for UniHerts students but its still a lot cheaper and with better equiptment than my local gym) :thumb:



Natural1 said:


> I've been meaning to ask you V. How do you find over head pressing after bench work?


Well, if there is one exercise I dread its the overhead press LOL! Mainly because Im pretty rubbish at it, find it v. hard and have to use an embarassingly low weight!

Having said that I actually prefer doing it after the B/P - dont really notice any massive fatigue or bad form and find I have a bit more 'oomph' if that makes any sense!!!!!


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## Magic Torch (May 30, 2005)

Its a good gym, i'm sure you can sort something out with them as its out of term time. And its a great uni....its where I went lol where about are you from?


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## VforVictory (May 4, 2009)

Bit late but heres sundays session

Incline DB Press 3x10 (11.5kg DBs)

Dips - 3x15 (had to do bench dips because trained at home)

Upright Row - 3x10 (approx. 19kg BB)

Lat side raise - 3x10 (7kg DBs)

Calf Raises - 1x100 (20kg BB)

No cardio but did go for a 40min run this morning!

I need to join a gym asap! I think im getting withdrawl symptoms already and its only been 3 days LOL!

Oh I said id post a back progress picture when i posted the other pics so here we go (pose is cr*p but never mind)


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## VforVictory (May 4, 2009)

Magic Torch said:


> Its a good gym, i'm sure you can sort something out with them as its out of term time. And its a great uni....its where I went lol where about are you from?


Im from WGC.

Im going to e-mail them today and try and sort it out!

Im finding it hard to train at home - i miss the gym atmosphere.Plus theres no way im going to try to load a bar and squat with 60kg+ without a rack!!!!!! Id probably kill myself LOL!


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## Jem (Mar 5, 2009)

VforVictory said:


> Bit late but heres sundays session
> 
> Incline DB Press 3x10 (11.5kg DBs)
> 
> ...


A 40 min run counts as cardio in my book V !!!

Hope you're ok and enjoying the sun !! I am off in the garden I think :bounce: :bounce:


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## VforVictory (May 4, 2009)

Jem said:


> A 40 min run counts as cardio in my book V !!!
> 
> Hope you're ok and enjoying the sun !! I am off in the garden I think :bounce: :bounce:


Hey!

Ive been sunbathing all morning LOL - felt like i was being grilled alive but I love the sun! Bit of a sun worshipper i think!

Hope you are enjoying the hot weather too!


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## Magic Torch (May 30, 2005)

VforVictory said:


> Im from WGC.
> 
> Im going to e-mail them today and try and sort it out!
> 
> Im finding it hard to train at home - i miss the gym atmosphere.Plus theres no way im going to try to load a bar and squat with 60kg+ without a rack!!!!!! Id probably kill myself LOL!


Cool there are two there tho - the Hertfordshire sports village (Uni one), and a next generation - now a david loydd!

You can get a bus right outside there aswell from WGC so it should be easy.

:beer:


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## leafman (Feb 8, 2009)

Lmfao

Now since ive arrived days and days too late all ill say is nice pics v and ur pretty girl too :thumbup1:

I was gonna say a really smart witty and sexuall comment aswell but ill not bother incase someone gets offended :lol:

Looking good :thumbup1:


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## VforVictory (May 4, 2009)

Arghh not the best day today....

The dog managed to raid the bin while I was out and now there is disgusting rubbish buried around the house......eg raw chicken skin..... :cursing:

Trained legs at home as have not yet sorted membership to other gym.

Volume was relativley high but weights were cr*p...

ATG squats - 3x15 (30kg)

Leg Extention - 3x10 (60kg)

Ham Curl - 3x10 (40kg I think)

SLDLs - 3x10 (30kg)

Lunges - 3x20 (10 each leg) (30kg)

1 arm DB row thing - 3x10 (12kg)

EZ bar Bicep Curl - 2x10 (18kg)

No cardio but may take the dog for walk later..... Not that the little bug*er deserves it:cursing:


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## LittleChris (Jan 17, 2009)

Hey V, good leg session.

beginners priority is to:

* Get stronger on the big lifts using a simple and basic routine.

* Improve neural efficiency through strength training which will expose a greater number of motor units to tension.

* Focus mainly on the big multi-joint lifts with some isolation accessory work.

Strength gains usually come at a slower rate on high volume body part splits hence why they are usually used by more advanced lifters that have a solid strength base and increased workload capacity.

Fond regards,

The Natural 1 :thumb:


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## LittleChris (Jan 17, 2009)

P.S. shoot the fcking dog


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## Natural1 (Mar 23, 2009)

LittleChris said:


> Hey V, good leg session.
> 
> beginners priority is to:
> 
> ...


Great advice! ;-)


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## Jacko89 (Mar 4, 2009)

Hey V nice progress pics looking awesome girl. I've been out from UKM so only just caught up. Awesome shape to your body and gawjus face. Keep it up and get to a gym hehe. Hope your well. x


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## Natural1 (Mar 23, 2009)

VforVictory said:


> The dog managed to raid the bin while I was out and now there is disgusting rubbish buried around the house.


Should have cats, you won't get the bin raiding.. you'll just be kept awake all night with em charging round the house like lunatics instead! mg:


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## Jem (Mar 5, 2009)

Hey V - looking great in the avvi - lovely shape


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## VforVictory (May 4, 2009)

Harry Jack said:


> Hey V nice progress pics looking awesome girl. I've been out from UKM so only just caught up. Awesome shape to your body and gawjus face. Keep it up and get to a gym hehe. Hope your well. x


Hey Hey!! Glad to see your still around! Thanks for the nice comments btw!

LOL I will be gettin my lazy a**e to a gym as soon as possible!! Hopefully going today in fact! Training at home is hard and im getting addicted to cardio againh34r:....iv got to get myself together!



Natural1 said:


> Should have cats, you won't get the bin raiding.. you'll just be kept awake all night with em charging round the house like lunatics instead! mg:


...and leaving dead mice and birds in the garden and hairballs everywhere!!

im actually allergic to cats (well pets in general) LOL! Iv been on at my dad to get me a minature poodle (they don't shed hair!!!) but he said he wont be seen walking a girly dog..... :crying:



Jem said:


> Hey V - looking great in the avvi - lovely shape


Aw thank u!!!! 

I wish i wasnt so impatient though LOL my progress seems veeeery slooooow at the moment!!!!


----------



## VforVictory (May 4, 2009)

Oooooooops not updated for a while... :whistling:

Anyway training was not great this week but should using an actual gym this week so hopefully I can get going again....

Day 2, Week 5

Bench Press - 3x10 (30kg)

O/H DB Press - 3x10 (11kg DBs)

Tricep Extention things - 3x10 (???kg - forgot to check)

Calf Raises with 30kg BB and some Ab stuff

I swear the weights feel heavier at home - maybe because on the BP I have to use a narrower grip or something????)

Day 3, Week 5 (totally random session here....)

.....Tried to do deadlifts at 69kg but grip was impossible...only managed about 3x3 (69kg) and 1x10 (45kg)

Bodyweight Pull Ups - 1x2 (PMSL what a wuss - tried Wide Arm but it wasnt going to happen LOL)

Bodyweight Chin Ups - 3x5 (cheated a bit by not totally straightening arms on way down:whistling: but only would have managed about 3 if i did)

Day 4, Week 5

Incline DB Press - 3x10 (12kg DBs)

Upright Row thingy - 3x10 (16kg)

Lat Side Raise - 3x10 (7kg DB)

Bench Dips - 3x20

Have been for about 4 or 5 35min runs as cardio + lots of dog walking!

Diet hasnt been perfect either :whistling: .......eg pizza express and alcohol but you only live once!!! :innocent:


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## RACK (Aug 20, 2007)

Hi, just had a look through the journal, well done on your progress 

I'll be popping in more often now I've had a proper read.


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## Natural1 (Mar 23, 2009)

VforVictory said:


> Anyway training was not great this week


Time for a deload.


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## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

Natural1 said:


> Time for a deload.


why??/ weights she using to heavy:lol: :lol:

Is that how you grew your Mahooosive triceps that seem to have disappeared???? :confused1: :confused1:

Your wife know about this stalking yet????


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## Tall (Aug 14, 2007)

VforVictory said:


> Oooooooops not updated for a while... :whistling:
> 
> Anyway training was not great this week but should using an actual gym this week so hopefully I can get going again....
> 
> ...


Hi V,

Sounds like life is getting in the way of training.

I still see alot of isolation work in there.

Are you doing a 4 day split?

I dont see alot of posterior chain work either


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## VXR-Lovely (May 4, 2009)

V you have a great body.

Training seems to be going well to (=


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## Jacko89 (Mar 4, 2009)

Everyone knows cardio is for loooooosers and rabbits...give it up seriously. All that strain on your heart can't be good :confused1: :confused1: :tongue: x


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## VforVictory (May 4, 2009)

RACK said:


> Hi, just had a look through the journal, well done on your progress
> 
> I'll be popping in more often now I've had a proper read.


Hi!  Thanks for taking a look at the journal! :thumb:



Natural1 said:


> Time for a deload.


Deload? If i deload the weights any more I may as well be lifting cotton buds:lol:



jw007 said:


> why??/ weights she using to heavy
> 
> Well i am one of the rare superhumans that can bench press the almighty weight of 35kg.....:lol:LOL
> 
> ...





Tall said:


> Hi V,
> 
> Sounds like life is getting in the way of training.
> 
> ...


Hi!

last week was a bit hectic and I couldnt follow my usual 4 day routine (its on page 7 i think) due to lack of equipment at home. But dont worry, im not letting 3 months of hard work go to waste - even if it makes me bankrupt (flippin gym membership fees:scared:!!!!)

I will be heading a real gym this week :thumb: so i can get my ass back into gear!


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## robisco11 (Dec 8, 2007)

good to hear!!

get to a proper gym, bankrupcy's fine!!!


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## cecil_sensation (Jan 26, 2009)

welcome, hope all goes well 4 u


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## VforVictory (May 4, 2009)

VXR-Lovely said:


> V you have a great body.
> 
> Training seems to be going well to (=


Why thank you! And if that was rep whoreage it worked :lol: :tongue:LOL!!!



Harry Jack said:


> Everyone knows cardio is for loooooosers is that why your a keen runner then?? :tongue: :whistling: LOL just joking:lol: :lol: and rabbits...give it up seriously. All that strain on your heart can't be good :confused1: :confused1: :tongue: x


LOL im paranoid id get fat if i didnt do cardio, plus i was always cr*p at long distances so I need to keep my fitness levels up or im out of breath after 10meters!


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## Magic Torch (May 30, 2005)

Did you call the Uni gym in the end?!


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## VXR-Lovely (May 4, 2009)

Lol thanks, No it was just me Appreciating (=

Train Today?


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## VforVictory (May 4, 2009)

Well I have officially sorted out a gym for the holiday:laugh: so training can finally resume as normal from Thursday!!!!!! :bounce:

Anyway should post yesterdays training so...

Day 1, Week 6

ATG squats - 4x15 (40kg)

Lunges - 3x20 (34kg)

SLDLs - 3x10 (40kg) (my lack of flexibility makes these hurt!)

Leg Extention - 3x10 (aprox 60kg i think)

1 arm DB row thing - 3x10 (12kg)

Bicep Curls - 3x10

I am fully aware of how crap the weights are but i honestly dont feel safe loading a BB with 60kg+ at home on my own without a rack, hence why iv been taking the squats ATG and doing more reps instead.


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## robisco11 (Dec 8, 2007)

VforVictory said:


> Well I have officially sorted out a gym for the holiday:laugh: so training can finally resume as normal from Thursday!!!!!! :bounce:
> 
> Anyway should post yesterdays training so...
> 
> ...


thats great news regarding the gym :thumbup1:

dont worry about the weight, what you've done is sensible, you dont always have to train heavy, sometimes training smart is what's needed :thumbup1:


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## Tall (Aug 14, 2007)

robisco11 said:


> thats great news regarding the gym :thumbup1:
> 
> dont worry about the weight, what you've done is sensible, you dont always have to train heavy, sometimes training smart is what's needed :thumbup1:


You keep telling yourself that mate :thumbup1: :whistling:


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## robisco11 (Dec 8, 2007)

Tall said:


> You keep telling yourself that mate :thumbup1: :whistling:


you mean what i say is wrong?


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## Jacko89 (Mar 4, 2009)

How ya doin V? Sorry aint been posting back. God job on getting to a gym. Workout looks good, fair play for being safe its better than getting injured but make sure you get back on the heavier stuff in the gym for the progress. What you been upto?


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## Natural1 (Mar 23, 2009)

jw007 said:


> why??/ weights she using to heavy:lol: :lol:
> 
> Is that how you grew your Mahooosive triceps that seem to have disappeared???? :confused1: :confused1:
> 
> Your wife know about this stalking yet????


Grow up man.


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## Natural1 (Mar 23, 2009)

VforVictory said:


> Deload? If i deload the weights any more I may as well be lifting cotton buds.


V.

A deload doesn't have to mean dropping weight. It can be as simple as just training twice that week instead of 4 times or even a week off from lifting. Fatigue is accumulative. A few hard week can add up, an "easy" week can help dissipate this fatigue and lead to new PR's.


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## Natural1 (Mar 23, 2009)

robisco11 said:


> thats great news regarding the gym :thumbup1:
> 
> dont worry about the weight, what you've done is sensible, you dont always have to train heavy, sometimes training smart is what's needed :thumbup1:


Absolutely.


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## Natural1 (Mar 23, 2009)

For anyone here that's wondering what routine V is following, she's doing the basic chest delt tri/leg back bi template I outlined a while back. The days and exercise selection are as follows.

Day 1

Squats

Ham Work

BB or DB Row

Bicep Curls

Day 2

Bench Press

Military Press

Tricep Isolation

Ab/Calf Work

Day 3

Deadlifts

Pullups

Leg Press

Biceps Curls

Day 4

DB or Incline Press

Chest Dips

Side Lateral Raise

Ab/Calf Work


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## YoungGun (Mar 30, 2008)

Natural1 said:


> For anyone here that's wondering what routine V is following, she's doing the basic chest delt tri/leg back bi template I outlined a while back. The days and exercise selection are as follows.
> 
> Day 1
> 
> ...


I really don't understand the reasoning for this routine, it all seems mixed up to me. I highlighted the back exercises, surely a day soley for the muscle group would be better?

Also if squatting properly i would not be able to leg press two days later, any specific reasoning for doing the slpit this way?


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## Jacko89 (Mar 4, 2009)

YoungGun said:


> I really don't understand the reasoning for this routine, it all seems mixed up to me. I highlighted the back exercises, surely a day soley for the muscle group would be better?
> 
> Also if squatting properly i would not be able to leg press two days later, any specific reasoning for doing the slpit this way?


Im with you on this mate, you train to fatigue your muscles and this program isn't enough. I've brought this up before in V's journal but Natural1 came out with a load of junk and i'm not on this site to argue + b1tch people so i left it. V will learn her own way taking everyone's advice in and trying it herself. When she reads this and wants a new program or wants to change hers a bit all she has to do is ask 

Good work though V its great to see you still training and to have you updating. Hope your well and you've had a good weekend. :thumbup1:


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## VforVictory (May 4, 2009)

Just some training updates before I answer everyone....

Day 2, Week 6

Bench Press - 1x10, 2x8 (30kg approx.)

DB press - 1x8 (13kg dbs), 2x8 (10kgs)

Skull crushers - 3x10 (15kg)

Calf Raises - 3x100 (with 30kg BB)

Day 3, Week 6

Deadlifts - 1x10 (40kg), 1x5 (60kg), 3x5 (65kg)

Wide Arm Chins - 3x10 (25kg assist) 1x5 (20kg assist)

Lat Pull Down - 3x10 (?? forgot to note weight:confused1

Some kind of row/pull machine for upper back - 3x10 (20kg)

Leg Press - 3x10 (120kg) (feels a lot heavier than the one in the old gym - either that or i've suddenly got a lot weaker)

+30mins cardio

Had to restrain myself from trying out all the machines in the new gym LOL! And there are TVs built into the cardio equipment, and you have a little key that records your session! How posh! Not sure if I like it though - im in the gym to train, not to watch daytime tv haha!!!!

Grip was a big problem on the deads and chins. Theres no chalk at the new gym either! Whats that all about!!!!!!!!! I may have to use straps or something because the bar nearly slipped a few times:whistling:


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## Jacko89 (Mar 4, 2009)

Straps are cheating! Work on the forearm strength.


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## Natural1 (Mar 23, 2009)

YoungGun said:


> I really don't understand the reasoning for this routine, it all seems mixed up to me.


The routine is primarily a half body split: legs back biceps//chest shoulders tri. Although calves are done on chest day although it's not set in stone.



YoungGun said:


> I highlighted the back exercises, surely a day soley for the muscle group would be better?


Explain the difference between training back once per week using rows and chins, and training back twice per week once using rows the other using chins.. total weekly volume remains similar.. what's the difference?



YoungGun said:


> Also if squatting properly i would not be able to leg press two days later, any specific reasoning for doing the slpit this way?


The workouts are simply listed in order they are performed each week. Actual programming should be:

Day 1: on

Day 2: on

Day 3: off

Day 4: on

Day 5: off

Day 6: on

Day 7: off

So you'd squat Monday and deadlift/leg press Thursday. If a person trained legs on one day 1x per week they do squats and leg presses very likely so again, total weekly volume will be similar.


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## LittleChris (Jan 17, 2009)

Why do you prefer this over something like push/pull/legs?

You clearly have your reasons, would be interested to know what they are though?


----------



## Natural1 (Mar 23, 2009)

Harry Jack said:


> Im with you on this mate, you train to fatigue your muscles and this program isn't enough.


Isn't enough? For what? Hypertrophy.. strength.. Power/RFD.. Marathon runners perform a hell of a lot of muscular work but you don't see too many huge runners do you? Define 'enough'. You can perform 20 sets a body part but so long you use feather weight you'll be feather small. What's gonna get you bigger.. 10 sets with 100lbs or 2 sets with 400lbs? In the beginning stages strength gains are paramount, too many lifters fail to understand this and is why we have many frustrated lifters in gyms everywhere.



Harry Jack said:


> I've brought this up before in V's journal but Natural1 came out with a load of junk.


Junk? Be specific. What do you disagree with?



Harry Jack said:


> V will learn her own way taking everyone's advice in and trying it herself. When she reads this and wants a new program or wants to change hers a bit all she has to do is ask


Feel free to share your advice with the board and with V, that is what it's here for.


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## VforVictory (May 4, 2009)

oliver Roberts said:


> welcome, hope all goes well 4 u


Hey! Thanks for the comment



Magic Torch said:


> Did you call the Uni gym in the end?!


Hi! Yeah i got in touch with them so everything is sorted!:laugh:



robisco11 said:


> thats great news regarding the gym :thumbup1:
> 
> dont worry about the weight, what you've done is sensible, you dont always have to train heavy, sometimes training smart is what's needed :thumbup1:


But training heavy is much more fun :lol: !!!!!!!!!! Although my legs and ass were aching more after the light ATG squats than they have for a long time doing heavier weights with less reps so something worked!!!!!


----------



## YoungGun (Mar 30, 2008)

Well using back as an example. How many sets are these exercises.

If you do BB rowing on Monday, that would do nothing for my back, it would simply not work it enough for growth, unless going over the top on sets. No gain in stregnth probably also.

Hence why i pointed out i thought it would be better putting it together, because on it's own it seems pretty pointless to do.

I have never seen this kind of split before, so am interested to the reasoning, i'm not just asking for an arguement.


----------



## Natural1 (Mar 23, 2009)

LittleChris said:


> Why do you prefer this over something like push/pull/legs?
> 
> You clearly have your reasons, would be interested to know what they are though?


Nothing wrong with push/pull/legs Little Chris. I however prefer greater frequency of training per body part/lift especially in beginners who simply cannot generate as much 'intensity' as more experienced lifters to necessitate an entire 7 days off per muscle group.

Breaking down total weekly volume into full body or half body splits and greater frequency is favorable for beginners and in fact many advanced lifters. Ask king of strength Louie Simmons if he's doing it all wrong having his lifters at Westside train bench/squat/dead twice per week.


----------



## Natural1 (Mar 23, 2009)

YoungGun said:


> Well using back as an example. How many sets are these exercises.
> 
> If you do BB rowing on Monday, that would do nothing for my back, it would simply not work it enough for growth, unless going over the top on sets. No gain in stregnth probably also.


I cannot highlight the importance of '*getting stronger*' in beginner-intermediate lifters. You seem to be of the understanding that volume is a requirement for strength/hypertrophy. While volume most certainly is a useful tool (and everyone will define 'volume' differently) it is most defiantly not a requirement to get big and strong.

Who'll be bigger the guy doing 20 sets at 100lbs or the guy doing 5 sets at 400lbs?

I ask again, say you do 5 sets of rows on Monday and 5 sets of chins Thursday, total weekly volume = 10 sets, just the same as if you'd done them the same day.. Weekly volume is what counts not 'blasting' a muscle into oblivion 1x per week (although this can/does work if properly applied)


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## Natural1 (Mar 23, 2009)

VforVictory said:


> But training heavy is much more fun :lol: !!!!!!!!!! Although my legs and ass were aching more after the light ATG squats than they have for a long time doing heavier weights with less reps so something worked!!!!!


Higher reps = greater time under tension (TUT) which can = greater DOMS (soreness)

It may do you well to increase rep range and strength gains within that rep range.


----------



## YoungGun (Mar 30, 2008)

I understand where you are coming from.

However all i'm saying is even if weekly volume is the same, i don't think it would have the same growth and strength gains as doing it all at once.

My reasoning is if i did 5 sets of rows on Monday, heavy as i could for 5 sets, that would probably work my back a small amount. Then i did 5 sets of chins Thursday, again that would work my back slightly.

So what i'm saying is your never stressing the muscle enough to see good growth or strength gains. That is just my thoughts on it.

If this has been tried and tested by yourself and you have found it works, fine.

Again i see your reasoning and points, but i just don't think it would do enough.


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## VforVictory (May 4, 2009)

Harry Jack said:


> Straps are cheating! Work on the forearm strength.


I was worried someone was going to say that!!!!! I may get myself some chalk anyway (even if it does mess up the very new and clean black flooring:whistling


----------



## Natural1 (Mar 23, 2009)

YoungGun said:


> I understand where you are coming from.
> 
> However all i'm saying is even if weekly volume is the same, i don't think it would have the same growth and strength gains as doing it all at once.
> 
> ...


You may be getting 'fatigue' confused with 'tension' again this is goal defendant. Think of it this way, lets use an example of 7 total sets per week.

If you were to do them all at once on their own day, after the first sets you are know in a state of fatigue, the 2nd, 3rd, 4th etc.. sets will be 'compromised' (for want of a better word) so you may not be able to put as much effort (tension) in the subsequent sets due to fatigue.

If you were to train 1 set a day every day each set would be more 'intense', there would be little compromise from fatigue and therefore each set would probably be of a higher quality, greater TUT etc.. You would be sacrificing fatigue for greater tension/TUT. In fact, this way each week would have your muscle performing more sheer bio-mechanical work than 7 sets in one session.

Now I'm in no way suggesting for bodybuilders to train everyday BUT if we look at olympic lifters who specialize in certain lifts how do they train..? They train each lift everyday, none of this body part splits stuff, last time I looked they were not lacking in strength!



YoungGun said:


> If this has been tried and tested by yourself and you have found it works, fine.


Mate, training body parts at a higher frequency than once per week is nothing to do with me! Just look at many of the greats in history including pre-steroid time eg Steeve Reeves to see how they trained. Look up Reg Park etc.. full body and upper/lower splits are time tested and proven. In fact, each BP 1x per week split are relatively recent in lifting history. Again I'm not saying it doesn't work, but it's certainly not the only way but unfortunately many think it is.


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## VforVictory (May 4, 2009)

Just to say thanks for all the input about the training etc! I try to take it all in and it is really really helpful!

Sadly im not the sharpest tool in the box, so I dont really know what position to take about the routine because everyone seems to be making good points:confused1:

Arghhhhh im confuuuseeeed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :blink:

Its hard to know what is going to work best for me because I really dont know....... 1) how i would have responded to a different program 2) how much potential i have (i sometimes feel like im getting nowhere fast) and 3)what sort of programme would suit me best.

I especially dont know what would be best for my legs - in photos they look like they need the most work, but relativley speaking they are my strongest body part and always have been.

At the moment I dont have a problem training them 2x a week, because I dont really suffer DOMS in them after a heavy (well, heavy for me anyway) session with less reps, and they recover quickly. This is why I add in leg extensions and sometimes lunges to try and work them harder. The thing is, I have always been better at power events so I can't tell if less reps and as heavy as possible is going to do more for me than more reps with less weight (which aches more, but surely thats not the only indicator of improving??????)

I am guilty of adding in a few extra exercises here and there if I feel like I can (but then again, if you can does it mean you should?????).

Im still very weak, especially in the upper body so doing just 1 area (eg chest) makes me tire very quickly, and I cant go as heavy or with as good form that if i do a more mixed up routine...but then dont your muscles respond to being totally exhausted and get stronger accordingly??

Aaaarghh im even more confused now????????????????????????


----------



## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

Natural1 said:


> *Higher reps = greater time under tension (TUT) which can = greater DOMS (soreness)*
> 
> It may do you well to increase rep range and strength gains within that rep range.


Tut Tut...

Mate your full of fckin sh1t

Clearly you have never squattd 300kg for a couple of reps and felt DOMS for next week

Your training routine you gave her is a pile of sh1t, please outline goals that routine will facillitate....

You talk out of your ar5e, if you had a physiqhue to back the bollox you talk you would at least have some credability..

But you dont, so you continue posting new age hippie tripe that is as effective as a carboard life jacket

You tell me to grow up, I tell you to "grow" as both will never happen


----------



## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

Natural1 said:


> I cannot highlight the importance of '*getting stronger*' in beginner-intermediate lifters. You seem to be of the understanding that volume is a requirement for strength/hypertrophy. While volume most certainly is a useful tool (and everyone will define 'volume' differently) it is most defiantly not a requirement to get big and strong.
> 
> Who'll be bigger the guy doing 20 sets at 100lbs or the guy doing 5 sets at 400lbs?
> 
> *I ask again, say you do 5 sets of rows on Monday and 5 sets of chins Thursday, total weekly volume = 10 sets, just the same as if you'd done them the same day.. Weekly volume is what counts not 'blasting' a muscle into oblivion 1x per week (although this can/does work if properly applied*)


complete fckin sh1t, Im thinking you know fck all

If the rows were completed with correct intensity, then the muscle would still be repairing by thursday and another 5 sets of chins would be counter productive...

If fact ten sets are not really required at all...

Weekly volume is not what counts you imbicile..

Please just post your physique up so we cansee how effective this training has been for you

Would prevent all these arguments wouldnt you say...

And yes, I definatley would say a persons physique has a very good correleation to their level of knowledge, as proved by posters on this board.

whats the fck volume got to do with anything?????

Its about quality,


----------



## LittleChris (Jan 17, 2009)

I hope Tall posts some goodness in here. He has a masterful way with English


----------



## LittleChris (Jan 17, 2009)

You back on the Tren bud?

LMAO, silly question, you were never off it :thumb:


----------



## T.F. (Aug 28, 2008)

jw007 said:


> complete fckin sh1t, Im thinking you know fck all
> 
> If the rows were completed with correct intensity, then the muscle would still be repairing by thursday and another 5 sets of chins would be counter productive...
> 
> ...


Got to agree with Joe here, you're posting some bollox Natural1, WTF are you thinking man?


----------



## T.F. (Aug 28, 2008)

LittleChris said:


> You back on the Tren bud?
> 
> LMAO, silly question, you were never off it :thumb:


Off? :lol:


----------



## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

Natural1 said:


> *Explain the difference between training back once per week using rows and chins, and training back twice per week once using rows the other using chins.. total weekly volume remains similar.. what's the difference*?


At a glance, and im just throwing this out there.....

But the difference as I see it, call it instinct if you will.. BUT

Your training back twice a week rather than once, would I be correct???

Not only that but training of said muscle group would just be 2 days apart??

Is this wise???

However I dont suppose it makes much difference to you as you advocate faggoty zero intensity training for girls and gays

FZIT-FAF as commonly known in Natty circles


----------



## Tall (Aug 14, 2007)

V - why are you not doing Full Body Workouts?


----------



## Tall (Aug 14, 2007)

jw007 said:


> Tut Tut...
> 
> Mate your full of fckin sh1t
> 
> ...


Thats not DOMS Joe - thats DEATH! :lol:

Ice Bathing helped me though. That and my sources of quality carbs :thumbup1:


----------



## Natural1 (Mar 23, 2009)

jw007 said:


> Clearly you have never squattd 300kg for a couple of reps and felt DOMS for next week


I never stated that low rep would never result in DOMS, I mentioned it's more likely to occur when a muscle has been under tension for longer as has happened here in V's case.



jw007 said:


> Your training routine you gave her is a pile of sh1t, please outline goals that routine will facillitate....


It's designed for strength progression in the important lifts. Funny how a couple have said the routine is '****' yet no one has offered anything substantial as to why.



jw007 said:


> You talk out of your ar5e, if you had a physiqhue to back the bollox you talk you would at least have some credability..


Please don't resort to ad-hominem attacks < you can look that one up.



jw007 said:


> But you dont, so you continue posting new age hippie tripe that is as effective as a carboard life jacket


You saying so doesn't make it so, what *specifically* is 'new age tripe' if you mention specifics I'll be happy to discuss with you.



jw007 said:


> If the rows were completed with correct intensity, then the muscle would still be repairing by thursday and another 5 sets of chins would be counter productive...


1/ Define "correct intensity"

2/ Some lifters train chins/rows *on the same day* yet separating the two movements is counter productive? I don't see the logic here.



jw007 said:


> If fact ten sets are not really required at all...


Never said they were, it was an illustration to make a point.



jw007 said:


> Weekly volume is not what counts you imbicile..


I strongly disagree here. A muscle adapts to *the average stimulus over time* total average workload matters, who'll be fitter the guy that runs once a week or the guy that runs 3x per week? Who'll be bigger the guy that lifts and recovers once a month or once a week? Average workload matters, how can it possibly not?



jw007 said:


> Please just post your physique up so we cansee how effective this training has been for you.


Does having a awesome physique = great knowledge guaranteed or could it more likely be a result of good genetics and drugs? Is the biggest guy always the most knowledgeable? If you have anything substantial that counters my posts then present it, requesting "proof" pictures is not a viable argument.



jw007 said:


> And yes, I definatley would say a persons physique has a very good correleation to their level of knowledge, as proved by posters on this board.


There may be many reasons why a person may have a average physique yet still be knowledgeable. Maybe a health issue prevents them from training as they would like, maybe they simply gave up lifting but don't mind spending some time helping others.. Perhaps a larger lifter has better genetics.. Raw physique is not necessarily a sure marker of knowledge and neither is an average physique a guarantee of poor advice.



jw007 said:


> whats the fck volume got to do with anything????? Its about quality,


Volume has nothing to do with anything you say? Who'll be bigger.. the guy who can rep 300lbs for 1 rep or the guy or can rep 300lbs for 20 reps all else being equal? Think about it.. 20 reps is greater volume than 1.. right?



jw007 said:


> Your training back twice a week rather than once, would I be correct???


Correct. But weekly workload remains the same.



jw007 said:


> Not only that but training of said muscle group would just be 2 days apart?? Is this wise???


Not 2 days apart no, however so what if they were? You ever heard of full body routines where each muscle/lift is trained Mon/Wed/Fri, however do they manage with only 1-2 rest days inbetween! Yet lifters have been doing them for decades! How on earth do olympic lifters manage training the same lifts almost every day? Yet they're among the strongest lifters on the planet.



jw007 said:


> However I dont suppose it makes much difference to you as you advocate faggoty zero intensity training for girls and gays.


You need to define what you label 'intensity' I'm going to hazard a guess and say you mean taking a set 'to failure' correct? Perhaps you should state your own training philosophy before further debating. I get the impression you're a "high intensity" guy, am I right?


----------



## Natural1 (Mar 23, 2009)

VforVictory said:


> Arghhhhh im confuuuseeeed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :blink:


Don't be. All you need worry about is upping your numbers in the big lifts, progressing regularly, is this happening?



VforVictory said:


> Its hard to know what is going to work best for me because I really dont know....... 1) how i would have responded to a different program 2) how much potential i have (i sometimes feel like im getting nowhere fast) and 3)what sort of programme would suit me best.


You could try a different routine, that's the only way to tell but ultimately, whatever you do, you MUST up your numbers right? Is this currently happening or not V? I would suggest lifting 3x per week and seeing how that works for you.



VforVictory said:


> The thing is, I have always been better at power events so I can't tell if less reps and as heavy as possible is going to do more for me than more reps with less weight (which aches more, but surely thats not the only indicator of improving??????)


You need to experiment with rep ranges, training to get stronger in the 1-5 rep range has a slightly different training effect to increasing strength in the 6-15 rep range. I'll elaborate further if your interested. And you're right, DOMS (soreness) is not necessarily a marker of progress. The numbers you lift are more indicative of progression.



VforVictory said:


> Im still very weak, especially in the upper body so doing just 1 area (eg chest) makes me tire very quickly.


May have to adjust volume (amount of sets) or days spent lifting.



VforVictory said:


> dont your muscles respond to being totally exhausted and get stronger accordingly??


There's an saying, 'Stimulate don't annihilate' there is absolutely no need to 'exhaust' a muscle. You can increase strength without exhaustion, a marathon runner exhausts his legs yet they don't grow. The guy doing a set of 500lbs has massive legs.. Strength V it's all about getting stronger this does not require exhaustion.

Seriously, why not try lifting just 3 days per week (cardio on others if you wish) you may find it works better at this stage.


----------



## Ak_88 (Nov 9, 2008)

V - i saw a few posts ago you had trouble with your grip. IMO i would use straps; my grip is awful since i had to stop deadlifting but i found using straps helped me train my back just as well.

At the end of the day it depends whether you want your forearm/grip strength to be limiting how much you can shift on back exercise


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## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

I will get back to you in due course Natty Man

Meanwhile



Natural1 said:


> I never stated that low rep would never result in DOMS, I mentioned it's more likely to occur when a muscle has been under tension for longer as has happened here in V's case.
> 
> *Bollox to above*
> 
> ...


*Please Mr Natty, when referring to any type of world class lifting of physiques directly, please could you use examples as a sweeping comment is just not acceptable...*

*Its like me saying "lift this cause ALL THE BIG GUYS SWEAR BY IT"*

*What big guys??? you see my point??*

*Re intensity, you tell me as I dont like to sppn feed and yours is clearly lacking*

*Hulk Out for now:thumb:*


----------



## carly (Mar 8, 2008)

Just seen your journal, you have a great shape hun, everything takes time, just train hard, eat well/clean and most of all enjoy it )) xx and remember when lifting bodybuilding isnt power lifting so keep your rep range between 8-10 around 4 sets, nice and controlled, to sculpture your body xx


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## Natural1 (Mar 23, 2009)

jw007 said:


> Bollox to above.


I disagree. Whats more likely to bring on DOMS a 1 rep max or a 20 rep max? Greater TUT = greater micro trauma. A simple indisputable fact.



jw007 said:


> what A useless routine for strength progression.


So you keep saying yet fail to explain why.



jw007 said:


> Any sh1t that you post TBH.


Interesting, you claim anything I post is sh1t yet offer a very lacking argument.



jw007 said:


> What im i here to do you work for you??? want spoon feeding so you can plagurise my posts and use on your "sticky"


Show me where I've 'plagiarized' one single piece of info from you. I asked for YOUR definition of 'intensity' as it can mean various things to different people, if we're going to debate, best be on the same page wouldn't you agree. Intensity may be used to refer to % of rep max or how close to failure a set is taken, which is it in your opinion?



jw007 said:


> What lifters are they??? when you say some?? who are you referring to??
> 
> As by being specific I could give you a reasonable answer.
> 
> [email protected] lifters who look pants like yourself dont count.


I don't have upper back trained 3x per week in that routine

Louie Simmons, Westside. Highly successful at powerlifting. Trains bench/deadlifts/squats along with accessory lifts twice per week. Layne Norton natural pro bodybuilder, trains back twice per week. Shall I go on? Really you need to stop the ad-hominem attacks, it does nothing for your argument.



jw007 said:


> whats running got to do with weight lifting????
> 
> I know pie eaters who eat more pies over a week but those who eat more inone day are fatter, so what???
> 
> Post on a running forum


Again you miss the point. You have to agree that the more frequently an activity is performed the better a person gets.. (so long it's within recovery) running 3x per week will net you greater fitness than 1x, why is lifting any different? If you can bench twice per week and still recover/progress, then why is that not better than once?



jw007 said:


> Yes usaully, can you please inform me of anyone who has competed with a great physique is a thick as 2 short planks???
> 
> As I said is a direct correllation usually.
> 
> ...


More ad-hominem, sad. Firstly you know nothing of my physique but a tiny avatar. Second, I have nothing to prove to you or anyone else here, if my advice is poor, address the advice and 'correct' it and explain why. Resorting to "assuming" that you know my appearance and requesting pictures is nothing more than side-stepping the points.



jw007 said:


> all great physiques have great minds usually..


Yet many great physiques train very differently and/or have completely conflicting philosophies.. you see the problem with relying on "appearance" for advice. So who was right Arnold or Mentzer? Both great physiques, one a volume trainer the other an advocate of HIT.. etc etc..



jw007 said:


> do you have health probs???


This is not something I wish to discuss on a public forum with strangers.



jw007 said:


> You offer sh1t advice, and look sh1t
> 
> WHat you dont do is
> 
> ...


So you say yet I still await anything of actual substance to validate your claims, mostly just ad-hominem attacks.



jw007 said:


> Errr are you thick??? I would say the person who squatted 600lb for 1 rep would have bigger legs...
> 
> If your going to offer a scenario at least give realistic options???
> 
> So think about it, 1 rep 600lb is less volume than 20 reps 300lb (not that you could do either, I however can do both easily, even before i took the dreaded roids)


The problem here is there is nothing "set in stone" in weight training. The guy that can rep 600lbs for a single may or may not have bigger legs then the guy that can rep 300lbs for 20 reps. Olympic lifters are capable of putting greater weight over their heads than bodybuilders yet bodybuilders are typically bigger.. There's a reason why bodybuilders typically train with reps higher than powerlifters, hypertrophy is a result of tension combined with TUT. A combination of both sarcomere and sarcoplasmic hypertrophy as a result of tension through bio-mechanical work and metabolic fatigue.

Which ever way you look at it, with any given weight, it's most likely that the lifter who can rep it the most will be bigger.. How can you say volume is of no importance? Here's another name for you, Charles Poliquin, maybe the worlds greatest trainer of elite level lifters, he's mentioned that the muscle that can handle the most amount of workload at approx 70% will be the biggest.



jw007 said:


> Please Mr Natty, when referring to any type of world class lifting of physiques directly, please could you use examples as a sweeping comment is just not acceptable...


I've allready given you the example of the guys at Westside who train upper/lower 2x per week, I've already mentioned the late great Steeve Reeves who trained full body 3x per week, I've already mentioned the late great Reg Park who used full body 5x5 training. I've already mentioned Charles Poliquins view on volume. I've already mentioned Louie Simmons and natural pro Layne Norton. You want more?

Here's another clue - Pavel Tsatsouline, the Russian trained Master of Sports.

Here's another for you, Galabin Boevski the 152-pound Bulgarian lifter who snatched a record 358 and clean & jerked 432 in winning the 1999 world championship, does three workouts a day.

Heard of Christian Thibaudeau? He's said "I've said it time and time again: The more you train without exceeding your capacity to recover, the more you'll grow and the stronger you'll get."

How about Bill Star and his famous 3x per week full body routines? http://www.geocities.com/elitemadcow1/5x5_Program/Linear_5x5.htm

How about Smolov etc...

Heard of Paul Anderson who could squat 10 reps with 800lbs? How did he train HIGH FREQUENCY! http://www.cbass.com/ANDERSON.HTM

The above are just a very few example (you did ask for some) but this is no way invalidates the traditional higher volume body part split each BP 1x per week. If this is what one finds works for them better then fine, nothings set in stone in this game.

Oh and finally, just for JW.

Dave Tate.. "My Greatest Gains Ever: Dave Tate"

http://www.tmuscle.com/free_online_article/sports_body_training_performance/my_greatest_gains_ever_dave_tate

Look at his routine carefully, it's a half body split legs back biceps//chest shoulders triceps each performed 2x per week = 4 workouts per week each body part hit twice per week. That split sound familiar to ya? it should do, V is following something *very* similar.

Now your actual issue with me is... ?


----------



## Titchy Dan (May 14, 2009)

VforVictory said:


> Just some training updates before I answer everyone....
> 
> Day 2, Week 6
> 
> ...


Good prgression V! Keep it up!

As for the straps (I use them for my back exlcuding deadlifts and shrugs, thats all because my grip is rubbish!)

Funny to see how the post is still a wargound for JW and Natural...... (I`ve stopped keeping points but me thinks JW is winning)


----------



## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

I asked

*What lifters are they??? when you say some?? who are you referring to??*

*
As by being specific I could give you a reasonable answer.*

*[email protected] lifters who look pants like yourself dont count.*

replied with some cut and paste sh1t from the internet, of guys you dont even know..

However, with all your searching, cut and pasting and lifters relegated to the realms of history you still have not answered my question above

"*I would like an established decent lifter who does back every 3 days please*:thumbup1:"

Thanks

Thought best to give you a chance before I can be bothered to make you look stpid-er

ps layne norton is PANTS, nothing I or anyone decent would apsire to PMSL

Stever reeves is also sh1t, average dude physique for his day, maybee something you "wish" too look like, but really a blown up swimmer

If going to use examples, FFS pick someone decent:thumb:



Natural1 said:


> I disagree. Whats more likely to bring on DOMS a 1 rep max or a 20 rep max? Greater TUT = greater micro trauma. A simple indisputable fact.
> 
> So you keep saying yet fail to explain why.
> 
> ...


----------



## Natural1 (Mar 23, 2009)

Titchy Dan said:


> Funny to see how the post is still a wargound for JW and Natural...... (I`ve stopped keeping points but me thinks JW is winning)


Unfortunately JW seems to have issue with my advice even though I have provided numerous points both logical and empirical to back my views, JW on the other hand seems to rather attack me on a personal level. This is unfortunate for V and her Journal.


----------



## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

I would also like to add

Why are you quoting west side and other established training programmes agaian by others

You are not others and your training program is not the same, Yet you wish to keep comapring yourself with "others" and Others principles"

Do you actually think for yourself??? do you class yourself as a "guru" like the others you have quoted???

Let me tell you

1) you are not them

2) please dont use their training regimes or programmes

3) If you are using these Guys, is V and olympic lifter then??

In one of your "sly PMs" has she secretly advise you she wants to be an olympic lifter??

So why are you referring to olympic lifting in all your posts????


----------



## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

Natural1 said:


> Unfortunately JW seems to have issue with my advice even though I have provided numerous points both logical and empirical to back my views, JW on the other hand seems to rather attack me on a personal level.* This is unfortunate for V and her Journal*.


Actaully NAtty man, she likes it, as your post are boring and this makes it readable

So Its not unfortunate for V at all, Its good for journal as keeps post count high and interest high..

Perhaps if instead of offering "training sessions" you pmed her what she thought about this you would know


----------



## Natural1 (Mar 23, 2009)

jw007 said:


> replied with some cut and paste sh1t from the internet, of guys you dont even know..


Does this negate the validity of the information? Is information in book also null and void?



jw007 said:


> However, with all your searching, cut and pasting and lifters relegated to the realms of history you still have not answered my question above


ONE of my example is in history, the rest are current, have you nothing to say of them?

Louie Simmons?

Dave Tate? You did look at his routine right? etc etc..

You asked for examples I've provided you with a few yet you choose to ignore them and request more?



jw007 said:


> "*I would like an established decent lifter who does back every 3 days please*:thumbup1:"


Where have I said that training back 3x per week is optimal? The routine I wrote for V is 2x per week.



jw007 said:


> ps layne norton is PANTS, nothing I or anyone decent would apsire to PMSL


Ok.

Natural - http://s3.amazonaws.com/twitter_production/profile_images/110969242/18001-norton-l-045_bigger.jpg



jw007 said:


> If going to use examples, FFS pick someone decent:thumb:


I have, you choose to ignore them.


----------



## Guest (Jul 12, 2009)

This is actually pretty interesting and a nice change from your usual posts J

Having trained westside 100% meaning my works out had been created by Lou each week (he used to email them to my teams coach every week) i know that you can train your back 4 times per week and have it grow. However, westside works and is designed with the drug user in mind (sorry but its true the westside boys are not natural in any way PMSL).

The problem with guys like Layne is they have great scientific info but the reality is science rarely translates into real world gains.......

Natural guys tend to over think things, yes you need to be more precise in your approach to training and diet than when you use anabolic drugs but it seems some guys take it to the point where hard work is forgotten in the name of science.


----------



## Titchy Dan (May 14, 2009)

I know i risk a potentially hazardous response here but for the good of V`s journal....... cant you two start a new thread?

JW vs Mr Natty - a plethera of abusive phrases and witty remarks?


----------



## Tall (Aug 14, 2007)

Natural1 said:


> I disagree. Whats more likely to bring on DOMS a 1 rep max or a 20 rep max? Greater TUT = greater micro trauma. A simple indisputable fact.
> 
> So you keep saying yet fail to explain why.
> 
> ...


Time Under Tension is an outdated concept which you seem somewhat attached to.

TUT has nothing to do with getting stronger, neither is DOMS an indication of hypertrophy.

If TUT worked by the methods you are inferring then old women who have to carry home their shopping in bags by hand would have large delts and forearms due to the total TUT.

You're asking who will have bigger legs the guy who can squat 600lbs for 1 rep, or 300lbs for 20 reps.

Nice interesting numbers you've picked.

The answer by the way is the 600lb guy.

Mainly due to the fact he's stronger. The 300lbs guy would have a max single in the region of 450lbs, maybe 475lbs at a push.

Your Olympic Lifting analogy is a poor argument - you start by saying they are stronger yet smaller than bodybuilders, then move to say they train more than bodybuilders. Whats your point? Train more to not be as big? Yet this is counter to your TUT argument.

Olympic Lifters and Powerlifters are all about strength and biomechanical efficiency. In the light classes they may be considered too small to be body builders, in the majority of the other classes then main difference will be arm size, and some symmetry issues.

A decent Olly lifter will be looking to front squat over 200kg, with guys in the 80kg area having 30inch plus quads. A non professional/non high level bodybuilder may have 26/27" quads, but the body builder is more about asthetics.

Most Olympic lifters will train more than 3x per day. What your missing is the fact they are training a movement for technique in order to become biomechanically efficient.

Westside trains lifts twice per week. Once for Max Effort. Once submaximal.

Volume from a bodybuilding perspective is generally considered to be the product of Exercises, Sets and Reps.

7 sets of 10 reps Benching 80kg would be considered a high volume workout. Due to lactate production this would cause DOMS, I'd assume muscular fatigue would be setting in after the 4th set.

Benching 6x6 at 160kg wouldn't be considered high volume, yet Volume as a product of weight moved would be greater. Who would have the bigger chest? The volume trainer? Or the strong guy?>

You keep talking about getting stronger, yet then start talking about TUT and volume and training like a BB'er.

I can go on if you wish...


----------



## Natural1 (Mar 23, 2009)

jw007 said:


> I would also like to add
> 
> Why are you quoting west side and other established training programmes agaian by others


It makes the point of greater frequency than what's been suggested in this thread, that of "blasting" each muscle group once a week



jw007 said:


> You are not others and your training program is not the same, Yet you wish to keep comapring yourself with "others" and Others principles"


I never claimed my routine to be the same, what gave you this idea? You did ask for examples right? You got them.



jw007 said:


> Let me tell you
> 
> 1) you are not them
> 
> ...


I think you fail to understand the reason I have mentioned established and successful training systems, a few in this thread have implied my routines is "sh1t" and that blasting each muscle group 1x per week is better. The training protocols I've used as an example show this to be inaccurate. You yourself have stated that training back 2x per week to be poor yet many successful lifters as I have shown do just that.



jw007 said:


> In one of your "sly PMs" has she secretly advise you she wants to be an olympic lifter??
> 
> So why are you referring to olympic lifting in all your posts????


Again, it makes the point that higher frequency training works. Are you not able to understand the difference between an actual recommendation and an simple illustration to help understand a point?


----------



## Tall (Aug 14, 2007)

Natural1 said:


> It makes the point of greater frequency than what's been suggested in this thread, that of "blasting" each muscle group once a week
> 
> I never claimed my routine to be the same, what gave you this idea? You did ask for examples right? You got them.
> 
> ...


You're missing the point.

Completing multiple repetitions of the same movement when done in these specific training programmes serves to ensure a greater skill level. They do not guarantee to induce a greater level of growth.

Practicing your putting serves only to make you better at putting...


----------



## Guest (Jul 12, 2009)

Westside is not for muscle gains it is for power.

None of the westside boys have a physique that could stand on a bodybuilding stage.

You can not compare strenght training to bodybuilding.

The 4 times per week for back includes two days where all you do is some light lat pull downs no where near failure.


----------



## Natural1 (Mar 23, 2009)

Con and Tall.

Fair enough points, I'm logging off right now but I'll address you soon. I think you misunderstand the purpose of me mentioning olympic lifters etc.. I'll get back to you, I'm off for now.


----------



## Guest (Jul 12, 2009)

Natural1 said:


> Con and Tall.
> 
> Fair enough points, I'm logging off right now but I'll address you soon. I think you misunderstand the purpose of me mentioning olympic lifters etc.. I'll get back to you, I'm off for now.


Oh i have no problem with any of what you have said besides the westside part. There are many ways to grow:thumbup1:


----------



## Tall (Aug 14, 2007)

Natural1 said:


> Con and Tall.
> 
> Fair enough points, I'm logging off right now but I'll address you soon. I think you misunderstand the purpose of me mentioning olympic lifters etc.. I'll get back to you, I'm off for now.


Spending 4 days googling won't really help your cause amigo.

The horse is dead. Put the whip away.


----------



## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

Tall said:


> Spending 4 days googling won't really help your cause amigo.
> 
> The horse is dead. Put the whip away.


Exactly what I thought

LMFAO

Expect some cut and paste from legends of days gone by

I reckon by next week sandows glorious routine might be posted up here, anvil holding and everything:thumbup1:


----------



## Tall (Aug 14, 2007)

jw007 said:


> Exactly what I thought
> 
> LMFAO
> 
> ...


Sandow holding Avril? :lol:


----------



## Tall (Aug 14, 2007)

V - we genuinely have your best interests at heart here.

I strongly urge you to reconsider your training.

Perhaps if you were to outline your goals?

I'm of the opinion that most women will want to reduce fat and increase muscle tone in the follow areas:

Bottom

Legs

Hips

Stomach

Arms

Following Dukes of Hazzard, many also sought to increase the size of their derriere to give that Daisy Duke look.


----------



## Natural1 (Mar 23, 2009)

*Hi Con.*



Con said:


> However, westside works and is designed with the drug user in mind


I'm aware of this Con, the reason I brought up Westside and olympic lifters is because JW asked me to provide real life examples of routines with greater frequency, westside is just one such example. Drug use is part of bodybuilding regardless of what training style even the 1x per week body part splits.



Con said:


> The problem with guys like Layne is they have great scientific info but the reality is science rarely translates into real world gains.......


You may not be aware but Layne is not just about the science, he is a pro natural bodybuilder, he has the hands on experience you talk off, if you read his thread on bb.com you'd understand more about his work ethics and training intensities. Does this not look like a bodybuilder to you? http://www.biolayne.com/



Con said:


> Westside is not for muscle gains it is for power.
> 
> None of the westside boys have a physique that could stand on a bodybuilding stage.


Surely you're not suggesting that these hugely strong powerlifters do not have vast amounts of muscle? The reason they would not do well on a bodybuilding stage is due to body composition. Have you ever seen a strong powerlifter cut down? They can look awesome. http://jimmysmithtraining.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/dave_tate.png

My point here Con is that for beginners, strength training is priority for two main reasons:

1/ Obviously you have to get stronger to get bigger.

2/ Heavy training increases neural efficiency which in turn increases the amount of motor units and fibers that can be exposed to tension.



Con said:


> You can not compare strenght training to bodybuilding.


I disagree. Bodybuilding IS strength training, how do you expect to get bigger without getting stronger? The difference is primarily with rep range. You can "get strong" in various rep ranges dependent on goal.



Con said:


> Oh i have no problem with any of what you have said besides the westside part. *There are many ways to grow*


Absolutely and this is my point, why it's caused so much "offense" is staggering. Westside was simply mentioned to show that a muscle does not require several days to 'recover' before it's worked again.

*Tall.*



Tall said:


> Time Under Tension is an outdated concept which you seem somewhat attached to. TUT has nothing to do with getting stronger.


I disagree. A muscle is only capable of tension and TUT, nothing more. A set will always have an amount of tension, and it will last for a certain duration it can be no other way. TUT is dictated by both tempo and rep target. Tempo and rep target influence the adaptations that occur eg sarcomere/sarcoplasmic hypertrophy, power/endurance adaptations, fiber type conversion etc.. Bodybuilders typically train with longer TUT (higher reps) than powerlifters.



Tall said:


> If TUT worked by the methods you are inferring then old women who have to carry home their shopping in bags by hand would have large delts and forearms due to the total TUT.


This is a stupid thing to say, we all know that the type 2a-2x fiber types are not going to be under enough tension in this example to stimulate an adaptation other than endurance. Who ever suggested training with p1ss light weights? Certainly not me, if you notice my whole theme is 'getting stronger' how is that possibly by carrying shopping bags?



Tall said:


> You're asking who will have bigger legs the guy who can squat 600lbs for 1 rep, or 300lbs for 20 reps.
> 
> The answer by the way is the 600lb guy.
> 
> Mainly due to the fact he's stronger. The 300lbs guy would have a max single in the region of 450lbs, maybe 475lbs at a push.


A bodybuilder will never reach full hypertrophy by training solely with max singles, there's simply not enough TUT for all fiber types to have been fully worked and fatigued. Lower threshold fibers have way more to give after the high threshold fibers fatigue. This is one of the reasons why bodybuilders typically train in higher rep ranges than olympic and power lifters. This is also where TUT matters, not enough TUT and you simply will not work/fatigue certain more endurance based motor units.



Tall said:


> Your Olympic Lifting analogy is a poor argument - you start by saying they are stronger yet smaller than bodybuilders, then move to say they train more than bodybuilders. Whats your point? Train more to not be as big? Yet this is counter to your TUT argument.


You miss the point of me using olympic lifters. The whole point was to counter this mentality in this thread of blasting a muscle into exhaustion once per week. I used olympic lifters and westside as real world examples that shows that muscle does not require 7 whole days for recovery before it can be worked again. Obviously I don't suggest training a lift or muscle every day for powerlifting or bodybuilding or for V, but the example of olympic lifters proves that muscle is capable of greater frequency than once a week.



Tall said:


> Most Olympic lifters will train more than 3x per day. What your missing is the fact they are training a movement for technique in order to become biomechanically efficient.


This doesn't negate the fact that their muscle and bodies are under stress when performing their skill rehearsal yet they still don't over train if programmed properly.



Tall said:


> Westside trains lifts twice per week. Once for Max Effort. Once submaximal.


Yes, I am aware of the difference in ME and DE work.



Tall said:


> 7 sets of 10 reps Benching 80kg would be considered a high volume workout. Due to lactate production this would cause DOMS, I'd assume muscular fatigue would be setting in after the 4th set.
> 
> Benching 6x6 at 160kg wouldn't be considered high volume, yet Volume as a product of weight moved would be greater. Who would have the bigger chest? The volume trainer? Or the strong guy?


But the guy doing 6x6 at 160 would be bigger then the guy doing 1x6 at 160.. see how it works.. Surely you're not suggesting that volume is of no importance.

Tall. Haven't I been saying how important strength gains are!? Have you missed this? I've said it repeatedly in this thread that the best way to increase muscular size in by getting stronger!! Please read my posts properly. That said, volume is more important in the advanced lifter as pure strength gains slow up. What's a lifter supposed to do once he's benching 400lbs/500lbs etc.. go up to 600/700/800? They may NEVER achieve those numbers but.. an increase in volume is possible. Like I've said before, the newer a lifter the more important strength gains are, the stronger then the more importance volume has. A lifter may never get past a 160kg bench but he can most defiantly increase the amount of work he performs with 160kg as you have demonstrated in your example.



Tall said:


> You keep talking about getting stronger, yet then start talking about TUT and volume and training like a BB'er.


TUT is a part of all training this is indisputable. As I said previously, it's dictated by both tempo and rep target. "Getting stronger" does not fit one single definition, you can get stronger at singles (low TUT) and in the 20 rep range (high TUT) the rep range and tempo one chooses to get stronger in will influence the adaptation that occurs according to the goal as I've previously mentioned.



Tall said:


> Completing multiple repetitions of the same movement when done in these specific training programmes serves to ensure a greater skill level. They do not guarantee to induce a greater level of growth


Obviously olympic lifters train for both strength/RFD and skill, however the point stands, olympic lifters place great stress to the musculature every day yet do not over train, they don't wait a full 7 days for 'recovery'. I used them as a simple example, no where have I suggested for any bodybuilder or for V to train as one.



Tall said:


> Spending 4 days googling won't really help your cause amigo.


It was late last night, do you take issue with someone logging off? As you can see I've responded the next morning.


----------



## Rebus (May 22, 2006)

Havn't read the full thread as have to head to the gym, but ive got to say Natural1 has certainly put ome good points across to a number of issues/arguements, and with some links etc to support them..

I also respect both Tall's and JW's views like i have done in the past on many threads they posted on. I just think Natural1 here as some good valid points.

I must say though a great trainer of bodybuilder, or powerlifters or whatever spot does not actually have to excell in that sport themselves in my view...


----------



## Heineken (Feb 6, 2009)

Wow quite a serious debate going on in here!

What's the name of that guy on MT that used to argue with everyone? This sounds like the same bloke LOL!

V if you haven't been scared out of your own journo, keep up the hard graft dude :thumbup1:


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## Jem (Mar 5, 2009)

Hi V - was just flying by...can see it's all very controversial in here again !

How is your training going at the moment ?

Emma xx


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## Guest (Jul 13, 2009)

> Hi Con.
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


Wow one large reply


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## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

Natural1 said:


> *Hi Con.*
> 
> It was late last night, do you take issue with someone logging off? As you can see I've responded the next morning.


Ok MR Natty

Ive shortened your HUUUGE post to most interesting parts for ease....

Now intially I "inferred" that you were a bit of a smarmer, and only posting on here to get into girlie panties etc etc

An inference that you feverently denied, fair enough!!

And you countered with the argument the argument as to why you only post on "2 girls journals" with a statement colluding to lack of time etc etc

You also "suggested" that you were there "trainer", self appointed but fair enough:thumb:

Now however it seems that you are a self appointed Guru on strength training, West side routines and natural bodybuilding (none of which being of female variety i may add)

You have posted some of THE "longest" replies to posts i have EVER seen on a thread...

Now for someone who "claimed" not to have much time, how did you manage this?? and how do you manage to repeatedly counter arguments???? And again Begs the question if you do indeed have so much time and knowledge as you seem to have.....

Why are you only posting on 2 young impressionable girls threads:whistling:

Just saying:lol: :lol: :lol:

:thumb:


----------



## Zara-Leoni (Mar 12, 2007)

Never goes in my journal and offers me any advice.....

How very odd.

:whistling:

:lol:


----------



## Guest (Jul 13, 2009)

> How very odd.


Very Odd indeed- he should post more in JW'S journal- now that is a person that needs advice


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## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

Zara-Leoni said:


> Never goes in my journal and offers me any advice.....
> 
> How very odd.
> 
> ...


Add "NEWBIE" to the title...

Trust me, he will be all over it like a RASH (as will a gaggle of a select few others:whistling


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## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

romper stomper said:


> Very Odd indeed- he should post more in JW'S journal- now that is a person that needs advice


I would welcome him with open arms into my journal, as Im sure would all my readers

If nothing else entertainment value would be enormous and I might even learn something..

I draw the line however at offers for "personal training"


----------



## Tall (Aug 14, 2007)

LMFAO @ NattyWarrior

You're fighting a loosing battle amigo. You've brought a CheeseString to a GunFight.

And calling me stupid was perhaps the worst thing you could have done :lol:

LMAO at TUT being indisputable.

Example: Take a 30kg DB and curl it. Maintain muscle tension for as long as possible at the top of the exercise. What growth will you get?

Example 2: Who will get the best results on bicep curls? Fast neg or slow negs?

Example 3: What methods do Westside use to get stronger?

Can you make your mind up as to what your arguments are exactly please? What single point are you trying to make?

You're coming back to your olly lifters all the time who train 3x per day, who train for technique (skill) and strength. Who complete a high volume work load. Yet you claim they are smaller than bodybuilders? Thus rendering TUT null and void.

You say powerlifters are big when stripped down, yet they train for strength only. Thus rendering TUT null and void.

If you claim that you wish for V to get stronger, then your routine doesn't actually help her acheive that.

Your knowledge is outdated and your arguments are weak.


----------



## ares1 (Apr 27, 2008)

Natural1 said:


> A bodybuilder will never reach full hypertrophy by training solely with max singles, there's simply not enough TUT for all fiber types to have been fully worked and fatigued. Lower threshold fibers have way more to give after the high threshold fibers fatigue. This is one of the reasons why bodybuilders typically train in higher rep ranges than olympic and power lifters. This is also where TUT matters, not enough TUT and you simply will not work/fatigue certain more endurance based motor units.


Not true mate...

heres a pic of an olympic weight lifter - i bet hes barely ever followed TUT principles and probably hasnt done a set over 5 reps for years.

yet he looks better than 80% of the memebers on here...










There are many ways to skin a cat


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## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

CarbWhore said:


> Not true mate...
> 
> heres a pic of an olympic weight lifter - i bet hes barely ever followed TUT principles and probably hasnt done a set over 5 reps for years.
> 
> ...


I was sure that was Tall:cursing: :cursing: :cursing:

Tall you charlaten:cursing: :cursing:


----------



## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

Tall said:


> LMFAO @ NattyWarrior
> 
> You're fighting a loosing battle amigo. You've brought a CheeseString to a GunFight.
> 
> ...


Oh dear, oh dear

School boy error NATTY MAN

Even I wouldnt do that!!!

R.I.P Natty dude


----------



## Tall (Aug 14, 2007)

jw007 said:


> I was sure that was Tall:cursing: :cursing: :cursing:
> 
> Tall you charlaten:cursing: :cursing:


Thats Ivan Stoitsov.

Bulgarian Olly Lifter.

He trains for strength using 90%+ of his 1rm.

He also trains for Skill (Technique) using 30% of his 1rm.

He doesn't do sets of 10 reps... Just singles/doubles/triples.

He doesn't work his legs on the TUT principle...


----------



## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

Tall said:


> Thats Ivan Stoitsov.
> 
> Bulgarian Olly Lifter.
> 
> ...


Does NAtty dude know him???

He makes no reference yet to his training???

Perhaps this look is one V could aspire too???


----------



## Tall (Aug 14, 2007)

jw007 said:


> Does NAtty dude know him???
> 
> He makes no reference yet to his training???
> 
> Perhaps this look is one V could aspire too???


Our Ivan is an Olympic lifter so isn't a natty so the NattyWarrior won't know him...

Wait...

Didn't he reference Poliquin/Tate/Simmons earlier as people V should aspire to? All are more adept at training assisted athletes...


----------



## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

Tall said:


> Our Ivan is an Olympic lifter so isn't a natty so the NattyWarrior won't know him...
> 
> Wait...
> 
> Didn't he reference Poliquin/Tate/Simmons earlier as people V should aspire to? All are more adept at training assisted athletes...


Best one IMO was Paul Anderson, A 500lb Fat man

Wonder what hes trying to say to V:whistling: :whistling: ????

I on the other hand V think you have an admirable physique, lithe and slim and with curves in all right places..

I would never compare you to a Fatty, Like NATTY:lol: :lol:

Or try to get you to train like one


----------



## ares1 (Apr 27, 2008)

Tall said:


> Our Ivan is an Olympic lifter so isn't a natty so the NattyWarrior won't know him...


indeed he is bulgarian - there whole weight lifting squad pulled out of the beijing olympics because they were about to be tested a couple of weeks prior lol :lol:


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## Tall (Aug 14, 2007)

CarbWhore said:


> indeed he is bulgarian - there whole weight lifting squad pulled out of the beijing olympics because they were about to be tested a couple of weeks prior lol :lol:


Olympians mate - they are Drug Free until proven otherwise... :lol:


----------



## Natural1 (Mar 23, 2009)

CarbWhore said:


> Not true mate...
> 
> heres a pic of an olympic weight lifter - i bet hes barely ever followed TUT principles and probably hasnt done a set over 5 reps for years.
> 
> ...


I absolutely agree with you, but as I mentioned, if a oly lifter took up bodybuilding, how do you think their training would alter?


----------



## Natural1 (Mar 23, 2009)

Tall said:


> LMFAO @ NattyWarrior
> 
> LMAO at TUT being indisputable.


Whenever anyone performs a set, there HAS to be tension (load) and TUT (duration) without any TUT there'll be no stimulus.



Tall said:


> Example: Take a 30kg DB and curl it. Maintain muscle tension for as long as possible at the top of the exercise. What growth will you get?


Your example is void, to compare various TUT you need all else to be equal, load, range of movement, tempo etc..

Now which will stimulate a greater pool of motor units:

1/ A single rep through a full range of motion (ROM) with 30kg at a tempo of 2/2 = 4 seconds tensions TUT

2/ Ten reps through the 
*same*
range of motion using the 
*same*
load and tempo = 40 seconds TUT

Answer. Number 2. The greater TUT = the greater amount of fatigued MU's.



Tall said:


> Example 2: Who will get the best results on bicep curls? Fast neg or slow negs?


Much depends on whether the load is being purposely slowed or is slow due to the sheer weight of the load. My opinion, I'm not a huge fan of purposely slowed reps and prefer to rep at moderate - high tempo's. This is an entire debate in it's own right.



Tall said:


> Example 3: What methods do Westside use to get stronger?


The ME and DE methods of lifting primarily to increase explosive strength power and rate of force development (RFD). Lifts are rotated to help avoid neural fatigue.



Tall said:


> Can you make your mind up as to what your arguments are exactly please? What single point are you trying to make?


Summary. Beginners need to GET STRONG to get big. And what better way to get strong then to follow a simple strength based routine.



Tall said:


> You're coming back to your olly lifters all the time who train 3x per day, who train for technique (skill) and strength. Who complete a high volume work load. Yet you claim they are smaller than bodybuilders? Thus rendering TUT null and void.


I can see I need to explain some more...

There are two main types of TUT:

1/ Total accumulated TUT

2/ Continuous TUT

Number 1 is the total amount of time spent under tension or under load performed in a period of time, say one day for example. This is the accumulated workload of all reps/ sets/ lifts for that muscle group.

Number 2 is time spent under tension without rest, in other words a single set of 20 reps at a tempo of 2/2 would make 80 seconds of continuous TUT.

The total TUT for olympic lifters is broken down into very frequent periods of low continuous TUT however total accumulated workload is high. One of the reasons for this other than skill rehearsal is to avoid fatigue. Anything beyond a single rep results in fatigue and fatigue is what causes down conversion of the 2x fiber type to 2a. This for an olympic lifter is undesirable as their sport is all about starting strength, power and RFD all of which are qualities of the 2x fiber type.

Continuous TUT or time spend under load without rest is far more beneficial to the bodybuilder seeking maximum size increase (hypertrophy). In this case the quality being trained is strength endurance, the bodybuilder is not concerned with exploding a single rep but rather moving a moderately heavy load for a moderate amount of reps hence why bodybuilders are known to typically train in higher rep ranges for longer periods of continuous TUT. The down conversion of 2x to 2a is desirable in this case as 2a's have a good strength/endurance combination. The fatigue caused by continuous TUT that down converts 2x to 2a is also responsible for additional hypertrophy other than muscle growth (sarcomere) that is sarcoplasic hypertrophy.

Basically two things matter for all lifters.

1/ Total workload performed.

2/ The manor of which this workload is broken down into sets and reps.



Tall said:


> You say powerlifters are big when stripped down, yet they train for strength only. Thus rendering TUT null and void.


TUT is not null and void as I've explained but is a side effect of how workload is broken down for the desired goal. TUT can be accumulated or continuous.

Bare in mind here also genetic fiber type dominance. It's likely that successful powerlifters and olympic lifters have a greater ratio of 2x fiber types making them more suited to short bursts of explosive power not requiring much endurance. Hence why these guys can grow so well on such low continuous TUT, these low endurance powerful fiber types do not require as much TUT to fatigue.

That said however, if a powerlifter was to take up bodybuilding you can be fairly certain that their training would be altered to one degree or another. The use of higher repped longer TUT sets would likely be used.

The reason I am of the opinion that simple strength training is best for beginners-intermediates is this:

1/ Heavy training increases neural efficiency enabling the lifter to expose a greater amount of motor units (MUs) to tension.

2/ When and if the lifter starts using higher volume training, this volume will be performed using decent weight.



Tall said:


> If you claim that you wish for V to get stronger, then your routine doesn't actually help her acheive that.


Explain why and be specific.



Tall said:


> Your knowledge is outdated and your arguments are weak.


Hopefully I've been able to explain a little more fully from where I stand. Feel free to counter anything you disagree with.

Tall. Regarding your neg for 'calling you stupid'..

I never called YOU stupid, I called a line of reasoning you used stupid, there's difference, it was not personal. I do try and avoid personal insults whenever possible in these types of debates. Now I'm more than happy to chat training in a calm respectful manner and will myself be ignoring all personal insults.

I hope this will be an end to all the 'silliness'.

I took a look at your full body 'westside inspired' routine. Seems you and me agree on much regarding training and the benefits of breaking down weekly workload into more frequent sessions.

PS. How tall are you? I'm 6 foot 6.


----------



## LittleChris (Jan 17, 2009)

Enjoying this journal now :thumb:

Natural1, do you offer training advice to others on the internet/in gyms?

You seem to know your stuff and whilst V will no doubt improve and become a formidable power lifter, I feel you shouldn't restrict your seeds of wisdom to one person.


----------



## Natural1 (Mar 23, 2009)

*New routine suggestion.*

Another routine I offer beginner-intermediate lifters is this 3 day per week. I personally prefer this routine for new lifters. V, I suggested the 4 day previously as you yourself were thinking of an upper/lower type routine. I honestly think you'll be better of following this.

A - Legs Back Biceps.

A1:

Squats: 2 x 5, 1 x 10

Ham Work: 2 x 8

Pullups: 10-25 reps

Row 1: 2 x 8

Curls: 2 x 10

A2:

Deadlifts: 2 x 5

Leg Press: 1 x 15-20 or 2 x 10

Chins: 10-25 reps

Row 2: 2 x 8

Curls: 2 x 10

B - Chest Shoulders triceps.

B1:

Bench: 3 x 8

Flyes: 2 x 10

OH Press 1: 2 x 8

Side Laterals: 2 x 10

Tris: 2 x 10

B2:

Bench: 3 x 8

Dips: 2 x 8-12

OH Press 2: 2 x 8

Side Laterals: 2 x 10

Tris: 2 x 10

Workout on Mon, Wed, Fri.. or.. Tue, Thur, Sat.. or.. Wed, Fri, Sun

WK1: A1, B1, A2.

WK2: B2, A1, B1.

WK3: A2, B2, A1.

WK4: B1, A2, B2.

WK5: Deload.

*Little info about the workouts. *

*A1*

1/ Work up to 2 heavy sets of 5 reps on squat, drop weight and and perform a lighter 10 rep set while avoiding failure. The 10 rep set is optional.

2/ Ham work can be a ham curl, GHR, SLDL etc..

3/ Perform 10-25 reps wide grip pull-ups depending on how hard you find them, alternatively do 2-3 sets on lat pull downs 8-12 reps per set.

4/ Choose a row lift eg barbell rows, dumbbell rows machine rows etc..

5/ Any curl for biceps 2 sets.

*A2*

1/ Work up to 2 heavy sets of 5 reps on deadlift.

2/ Leg press either 1x15-20 or do 2 sets of 10 but avoid going to failure note: this lift is optional depending on how you feel.

3/ Perform 10-25 reps close grip chins or lat pulldowns as before.

4/ Choose another rowing movement different from the previous A1 workout, if you did BB rows do DB rows etc..

5/ Another curl for biceps.

*B1*

1/ Warm up and perform 3 sets bench press, choose a weight that you find the 3rd set to be hard, avoid failure on set 1&2, you may or may not fail on set 3 but it's not a necessity.

2/ Perform 2 sets of flyes either with dumbells or on a machine with a weight that allows 10 reps while stopping 2-3 reps shy of failure.

3/ Overhead pressing 2 sets again avoid failure. Use either dumbbells, a barbell or a machine. You may drop this lift if you feel shoulders are worked enough from benching

4/ Couple of light sets of side lateral raises.

5/ Choose a tricep isolation eg skullcrushers or pushdowns.

*B2*

1/ Bench as in B1

2/ Dips - self explanatory don't worry if you can't get all reps.

3/ Choose another overhead press lift eg DB, BB or machine. Again this is optional depending on how you feel after benching.

4/ Lateral raises as B1.

5/ Another tricep isolation.

On week 5 either just perform 1 workout of each or take the week completely off from lifting.

The above is just a suggestion. Another option. I'd like to make it clear I do not view myself as anyones "trainer" and V is obviously going to choose whatever she wants to do.


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## dmcc (Nov 25, 2007)

Natural1 said:


> Bare in mind here also genetic fiber type dominance. It's likely that successful powerlifters and olympic lifters have a greater ratio of 2x fiber types making them more suited to short bursts of explosive power not requiring much endurance. Hence why these guys can grow so well on such low continuous TUT, these low endurance powerful fiber types do not require as much TUT to fatigue.
> 
> That said however, if a powerlifter was to take up bodybuilding you can be fairly certain that their training would be altered to one degree or another. The use of higher repped longer TUT sets would likely be used.


Hmm. I'd like Con's views on that, considering he's a world-record holding powerlifter who has recently won his first bodybuilding competition on his first try...


----------



## Guest (Jul 13, 2009)

That training routine looks a little similar to DC training at least the way you cycle the work outs. I have found an upper/lower split to work very well and i use this split on my self and others frequently. Your split does not appeal to me as its a bit too all over the place for me BUT i know this split can work especially for a beginner. That said for some one in their first year of training a whole body work out is the best JMO.

Nah if you diet down the big powerlifters they will not do well on a bb stage at least for the majority of plers. Pling creates big holes in a physique and certainly does not create the round shape required to win shows (having trained with some of the worlds very best i can say with no problem that yet they have a lot of thick muscle but bodybuilding specific work would be needed to be able to compete on a bb stage). This whole theory started when that guy dieted down Dave Tate or some thing? Yeah he looked good but lets face it he will never do well at bb above novice level. The look of a powerlifters muscle is different to a bodybuilders.

Layne Norton is a nice guy and i have chatted with him a few times so i will not comment on his physique i will just say its all about the standards you set your self

I do agree that time under tension is important, i have made my best gains this year doing very slow negatives and then exploding upwards, i still use a 6-8 rep range but the negative takes between 4-6 seconds. Its not the be all and end all but for me it has certaintly brought new muscle growth.

I actually like your posts but unlike american boards you will have to check your attitude a little because people on here dont take too well to over confident posts:thumbup1:


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## Guest (Jul 13, 2009)

dmcc said:


> Hmm. I'd like Con's views on that, considering he's a world-record holding powerlifter who has recently won his first bodybuilding competition on his first try...


Hmm i am not too sure what to say about this.

In my experience training the cns to fire stronger is the key to powerlifting muscle is important of course but the cns is more important.

Sure the fiber theory holds true but i have no problem repping out weights and doing 1 rep maxs, if the theory was completely true then i could not rep moderate heavy weights without great difficulty.

Oh yes the power/bodybuilding difference. For pure power training the goal is to move the weight from A-B now for bodybuilding we are trying to create a stimulas within the muscle to cause growth. Now YES we want to use heavier weights for both training methods and perhaps the rep range is similar ie 6-8 reps BUT the way we go about doing these reps is very different for the two sports.


----------



## Natural1 (Mar 23, 2009)

Con said:


> if you diet down the big powerlifters they will not do well on a bb stage at least for the majority of plers. Pling creates big holes in a physique and certainly does not create the round shape required to win shows (having trained with some of the worlds very best i can say with no problem that yet they have a lot of thick muscle but bodybuilding specific work would be needed to be able to compete on a bb stage).


I absolutely agree. For ADVANCED lifters looking too compete, merely performing the power lifts is likely not enough. A more balanced rounded physique is required. However, building a solid strength foundation is of up most importance in the early stages.



Con said:


> The look of a powerlifters muscle is different to a bodybuilders.


Agreed again. Likely due to various tension, TUT and fatigue, bodybuilders typically display greater sarcoplasmic hypertrophy and have a more 'polished' look whereas a dieted down power lifter tends to look like a solid block of granite.



Con said:


> I do agree that time under tension is important, i have made my best gains this year doing very slow negatives and then exploding upwards, i still use a 6-8 rep range but the negative takes between 4-6 seconds. Its not the be all and end all but for me it has certaintly brought new muscle growth.


Thx for sharing your experience.



Con said:


> I actually like your posts but unlike american boards you will have to check your attitude a little because people on here dont take too well to over confident posts:thumbup1:


Fair enough but I ask is the behavior of certain members acceptable accusing me of being a perv, accusing me of dirty ulterior motives and outright lies being said against me? My 'attitude' reflects the way I've been treated here though as I've previously mentioned, all insults will now be ignored.

Good training related post Con.


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## Natural1 (Mar 23, 2009)

Con said:


> In my experience training the cns to fire stronger is the key to powerlifting muscle is important of course but the cns is more important.


Agreed, CNS is king, no CNS = no muscular contraction.


----------



## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

Natural1 said:


> Fair enough but I ask is the behavior of certain members acceptable *accusing me of being a perv, accusing me of dirty ulterior motives* and outright lies being said against me? My 'attitude' reflects the way I've been treated here though as I've previously mentioned, all insults will now be ignored.
> 
> Good training related post Con.


Ive got to be honest mate, I nearly spat my lucozade all over the screen when I read that:lol: :lol: :lol:

stay focused you have all the tools to do what you want:thumb:


----------



## Guest (Jul 14, 2009)

> I would welcome him with open arms into my journal, as Im sure would all my readers
> 
> If nothing else entertainment value would be enormous and I might even learn something..


----------



## Natural1 (Mar 23, 2009)

A few in this thread have criticized the original 4 day routine I suggested but as yet noone has stepped up and explained why. Here is the routine again, it's a strength/hypertrophy routine split two ways similar to a generic upper/lower but instead is split:

Legs/Back/Biceps

Chest/Shoulders/Triceps

If the ones that have slated the routine (you know who you are) have anything specific they feel is wrong with the routine then feel free to state what it is and why. Any 'routine is sh1t' remarks are useless, provide the reason.

*Legs/Back/Bi 1*

Squats

Ham Work

BB or DB Row

Bicep Curls

*Chest/Shoulders/Tri 1*

Bench Press

Military Press

Tri Isolation

Abs

*Legs/Back/Bi 2*

Deadlifts

Pullups

Leg Press

Biceps Curls

*Chest/Shoulders/Tri 2*

DB or Incline Press

Chest Dips

Side Lateral Raise

Abs


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## VforVictory (May 4, 2009)

Well, there seems to be a lot of testosterone flowing through this journal all of a sudden...

I think this journal should be renamed the Hijack thread LOL:lol:!!!!!

Was intersting to read through everyones points - problem is Im even more lost about how i should be training now... :blink:

Anyway I trained legs today - felt pretty cr*p to be honest. Was having one of those annoying "im rubbish, always will be, whats the point?" days - made worse by the fact that certain people keep telling me I am too obsessed with exercise, and that I have a sh*t load of dissertation research to do that I have barely even started......

Anyway ill stop moaning now!

I did:

Squats - 1x10 (40kg), 3x7 (65kg)

Leg Extension - 1x4 (60kg) 3x10 (40kg)*

Ham Curl - 3x10 (40kg)

Glute Machine - 3x10 (forgot weight.. :confused1: )

Lunges - 3x20 (30kg)

+30 mins cardio

*dont know why but quads suddenly decided to die on me and i had to drop the weight right down to finish the set - was extremely pi55ed off as I usually do 60kg with no problems:cursing:


----------



## VforVictory (May 4, 2009)

Tall said:


> V - we genuinely have your best interests at heart here. :blush: good reply!!!!!!!!
> 
> I strongly urge you to reconsider your training.
> 
> ...


Hmmm well I dont really have a specific goal in mind - mainly because I really dont know what I can realistically achieve.

Having said that, I dont see the point in training unless Im working towards something (im very competitive too) so I suppose I am looking to achieve a fitness/figure type physique.

I dont think being overly 'big' would suit my frame, so strength, proportional muscularity and leanness is the aim for now.



Heinkeken said:


> Wow quite a serious debate going on in here!
> 
> What's the name of that guy on MT that used to argue with everyone? This sounds like the same bloke LOL!
> 
> V if you haven't been scared out of your own journo, keep up the hard graft dude :thumbup1:


Thanks!

LOL iv not been scared away just yet, although this was a pretty impressive hijack:lol:!



Jem said:


> Hi V - was just flying by...can see it's all very controversial in here again !
> 
> How is your training going at the moment ?
> 
> Emma xx


Hi!

My journal seems to have turned into the Jeremy Kyle show LOL!

Trainings going ok thanks - now I have found a new gym to train at during the holidays! I have decided I cant train properly at home - the atmosphere is all wrong and its actually quite dangerous LOL!!!!! Ive nearly squashed the dog and made a dent in the wall already!!!!!


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## Jem (Mar 5, 2009)

VforVictory said:


> Well, there seems to be a lot of testosterone flowing through this journal all of a sudden...
> 
> I think this journal should be renamed the Hijack thread LOL:lol:!!!!!
> 
> ...


Well V it is better than my pants leggie sesh yesterday ...which consisted of such crap squatting weight that I daren't say but fook it - we all have days like that !

and yes your journal is erm busy ...

If you want to build strength to build muscle then I dont know what is wrong with traditional push/pull & legs days as heavy as you can for 6-8 reps meself but then I'm simple :confused1: :thumb: and I have no knowledge whatsoever in this sphere !

What was working for you before V ?

Is your new regime working ?

Dissertation :whistling: OMG not envying you at all there .....get nose to grindstone ...

Emma xx


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## VforVictory (May 4, 2009)

Ak_88 said:


> V - i saw a few posts ago you had trouble with your grip. IMO i would use straps; my grip is awful since i had to stop deadlifting but i found using straps helped me train my back just as well.
> 
> At the end of the day it depends whether you want your forearm/grip strength to be limiting how much you can shift on back exercise





Titchy Dan said:


> Good prgression V! Keep it up!
> 
> As for the straps (I use them for my back exlcuding deadlifts and shrugs, thats all because my grip is rubbish!)
> 
> Funny to see how the post is still a wargound for JW and Natural...... (I`ve stopped keeping points but me thinks JW is winning)


Thanks for the replys guys! :thumb:

I dont know if its because my grip/forearms are weak or if its just because the bar is really slippery. The bars quite fat, theres no chalk and its hard to grip metal with sweaty palms!

I dont want to look like a wannabe pro by using straps at a ridiculously girly weight though LOL!!!

Hmm ill see if i can get some chalk and see if that helps... I guess my backs more important than my forearms though so i will probably use straps if it doesnt improve soon!



Jem said:


> Well V it is better than my pants leggie sesh yesterday ...which consisted of such crap squatting weight that I daren't say but fook it - we all have days like that !
> 
> and yes your journal is erm busy ...
> 
> ...


Hey!!!!!:laugh:

Hehe you cant be as simple as me:lol: - I honestly have no clue what im doing half the time, especially when i keep hearing loads of loads of different opinions:confused1:

Before i did Natural1s routine i was doing a 3 day split legs, back and chest but I didnt really follow it for long enough to know if it was working well or not. (i did only start weight traing at the end of April/early May so ive not had long to test out the different methods!!!!)

Urgh the disseration is such a pain in the Ar5e...im honestly dreading it. I also face staying with my grandparents for 3 weeks to do the research (its based in London and they live there).........Its not going to be fun:crying:


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## VforVictory (May 4, 2009)

carly said:


> Just seen your journal, you have a great shape hun:blush: aww thanks, everything takes time, just train hard, eat well (LOL ill try but every girl needs a chocolate binge now and again hehe)/clean and most of all enjoy it )) xx and remember when lifting bodybuilding isnt power lifting so keep your rep range between 8-10 around 4 sets, nice and controlled, to sculpture your body xx


Hi! Thanks for stopping by and for the nice comment:laugh: I really appreciate it:thumb:



jw007 said:


> Best one IMO was Paul Anderson, A 500lb Fat man
> 
> Wonder what hes trying to say to V:whistling: :whistling: ???? not that im a fat ass I hope LOL :lol:
> 
> ...


----------



## Natural1 (Mar 23, 2009)

V.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the 4 day I've given you or the 3 day I posted a few posts ago. Also the push/pull/legs thing is fine also. As Con has said along with myself, there are many ways to go about this, there's no 'rule'

No need to be confused. Here's the real simple part:

*So long your lifts are progressing THEN WHATEVER YOU'RE DOING IS WORKING.*

It really is as simple as that. Don't worry or over think it.

If you feel recovered enough on the 4 day and you're progressing then all's good, if you feel you need a little more recovery time then try the 3 day I posted earlier, if you want a push/pull/legs I can post one of those up to.

Entirely up to you.


----------



## Natural1 (Mar 23, 2009)

VforVictory said:


> Well, there seems to be a lot of testosterone flowing through this journal all of a sudden...
> 
> I think this journal should be renamed the Hijack thread LOL:lol:!!!!!


My advice would be to read everyone's posts, not the childish insults but the substance.. the actual training related information and draw your own conclusions as to what you feel is correct.



VforVictory said:


> *dont know why but quads suddenly decided to die on me and i had to drop the weight right down to finish the set - was extremely pi55ed off as I usually do 60kg with no problems:cursing:


Time to deload.

You may be better of trying the 3 day routine which allows more recovery time.

V I'll explain to you the reasoning in my 3 day routine that I posted earlier.

Some here have suggested training each body part *once* per week.

The routine of mine that you're currently doing is each body part *twice* per week.

The 3 day I wrote a few posts back is very much in between the two, it's each body part three times every two weeks, or in other words, once every 4-5 days. This gives you a very balanced combination of the benefits of the increased frequency of two times per week, and the benefits of more recovery time of once per week. It's kinda in the middle of the two training styles offering a *very* balanced training method.

Makes sense?


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## d4ead (Nov 3, 2008)

hmm interesting journal i've just read it from start to finish wow theres a lot of stuff there.

I thought some interesting points were made and very good arguments put forward on both sides, but no matter what was said natural1 seemed to just ignore or disregard or twist it.

ie repeatedly going back to the what's better 1 rep of 100kg or 10 reps of a 100kg when clearly there all saying neither, if you can do 10 reps of the 100kg you should be doing 5 reps of 110kg. Seems odd in the discussion natty always wants the weights the same when the whole point on the lower rep range is that it can be done with more weight. This of course will also effect the recovery time, effecting ones ability to recover enough to work the same body part more then once a week.

natty mentioned on a few occasions the comment whats better 1 rep of max or 10 reps of max never baring in mind how significantly lower the weight would have to be on the 10 reps.

The main sentiment i agree with however is that there are many ways to make muscle grow. What way works faster, now that is the question.

This is of course nothing more then a personal opinion and bodybuilding being what it is has a huge divide in opinions. You can have 2 equally gifted people that swear by totally different methods. As in most things its possible neither are wrong. That means all you can do is find what works best for you as an individual.

As natty correctly stated the best and easiest way to do this is to try different things. Its not scary and its not hard. It also gives you the benefit of knowing your body better and growing in your own experience.

A big deal was made earlier about photographs and peoples appearance. I while i totally accept that it is indeed possible for a smaller person to have as much or possible even more knowledge, i think its a fare point when you have have 2 extraordinarily experienced people with the physiques to prove it, who have both competed in there time arguing a point with a person who to all our knowledge has no actual experience at all, people will generally go towards those who look the part.

What im trying to say when its all said and done is dont lose heart, just keep going and discover for yourself what works for you.


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## d4ead (Nov 3, 2008)

ohh i must admit as personal preference i much prefer grouping the body parts together rather then having a mish mash over the week. Just a personal preference.

While i accept this does effect the form of the later exercises in the session, i still personally find that i get better results.

again not to say its the same for everyone.


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## Natural1 (Mar 23, 2009)

d4ead said:


> no matter what was said natural1 seemed to just ignore or disregard or twist it.


I've twisted nothing, if you have an example of such, present it.



d4ead said:


> if you can do 10 reps of the 100kg you should be doing 5 reps of 110kg.


Who says? What if the goal of the lifter was to specifically perform 10 sets.. eg German volume training 10x10 (GVT) in this case the whole system works based on volume with a lesser weight, cumulative fatigue and workload. The weight will always be adjusted to the volume and rep range and desired goal.



d4ead said:


> Seems odd in the discussion natty always wants the weights the same when the whole point on the lower rep range is that it can be done with more weight.


Never have I stated I "want" the weights to stay the same, I have used examples with the same figures to illustrate a simple point. With any given weight, the guy that can rep it for longer will likely be bigger right..



d4ead said:


> This of course will also effect the recovery time, effecting ones ability to recover enough to work the same body part more then once a week.


Frequency is dictated by the COMBINATION of volume and intensity. What's the difference.. 6 sets 1x per week, 3 sets 2x per week, 2 sets 3x per week, all add up to a weekly workload of 6 sets.. You see how a weekly total of 6 sets can be managed in more than one way.



d4ead said:


> natty mentioned on a few occasions the comment whats better 1 rep of max or 10 reps of max never baring in mind how significantly lower the weight would have to be on the 10 reps.


Obviously for a 10 rep set the load would be lighter than a 1 rep set LOL! This is fairly basic common sense right? The lifter would use either dependant on goal and desired training effect. For bodybuilding for the most part sets of longer continuous TUT are used eg 10 reps..

I'll highlight the main point in a simple summary.

Two things matter:



*1/ The total amount of muscular work performed.*




*
2/ The way in which the work was managed into sets and reps.*


For example. 3x10 and 10x3 both total 30 rep but each will offer a slightly different training effect based on..



*1/ Amount of continuous TUT per set.*




*
2/ Rest time between sets.*




*
3/ Related to above - Fatigue.*




*
4/ Load used per set, or tension.*




*
5/ Work performed per unit of time - work density*


Once you come to understand this it all falls into place.


----------



## LittleChris (Jan 17, 2009)

Natural1, I have come around to your way of thinking now.

I like the way you present your argument rationally whilst having the restraint to ignore the ad-honiem attacks.

Ignore the haters bro, you are doing a great job in this journal 

V, what you up to later baby girl? Fancy a shag? :2guns:


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## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

Natural1 said:


> Frequency is dictated by the COMBINATION of volume and intensity. What's the difference.. 6 sets 1x per week, 3 sets 2x per week, 2 sets 3x per week, all add up to a weekly workload of 6 sets.. You see how a weekly total of 6 sets can be managed in more than one way.


*No true at all, depends on lots of factors, nothing to do with volume and intensity per se...*

*As you like name dropping, Mike Mentzers HIT has very low volume and frequency and intensity I would say is no more than most peoples workouts the world over...*

*Just because its called HIT does not mean exercises are actually performed with higher than normal intensity, forced reps and negatives are the norm in any case for some*

*As such your statement is void and invalid*

*And if you use principle above it makes a mockery of rest of your post...*

*Stay focused..You have the tools to do what you want*


----------



## Natural1 (Mar 23, 2009)

jw007 said:


> *No true at all, depends on lots of factors, nothing to do with volume and intensity per se...*


Frequency has everything to do with volume/intensity.

eg..

You may perform high volume say 20 sets for a body part but you most certainly due to the high volume will not be doing it too frequently (if the 20 sets were performed at a high enough intensity)

Take the same weight and intensity as above and adjust only the volume, say 3 sets.. NOW you're able to perform at a increased frequency due to the decreased volume. 20 sets will take longer to recover from than 3 all else being equal right?

The intensity and volume have a baring on frequency, you most certainly will not train 20 sets at a high intensity at high frequency.

To ignore the relationship between volume, intensity and frequency is to ignore reality.



jw007 said:


> *As you like name dropping, Mike Mentzers HIT has very low volume and frequency and intensity I would say is no more than most peoples workouts the world over...*


Mikes HIT required sets to be taken to failure am I correct? How is this low "intensity"



jw007 said:


> *Just because its called HIT does not mean exercises are actually performed with higher than normal intensity, forced reps and negatives are the norm in any case for some*.


*There is a reason* why most "intense" to failure routines are of a low volume eg HIT/DC. This is even more applicable to natural lifters.



jw007 said:


> *As such your statement is void and invalid*
> 
> *And if you use principle above it makes a mockery of rest of your post...*


Nothing is "null and void".. think about it, would you suggest someone to train GVT 10x10 and take each and every set to failure and beyond using set extenders? However moderating intensity allows for greater muscular workload with less CNS/PNS fatigue.

You could for the sake of another example perform 1 set everyday but would you perform 20 everyday? Think about..

To ignore the intensity/volume/frequency relationships is to ignore reality.


----------



## VforVictory (May 4, 2009)

Thanks to everyone who left comments etc in this journal:thumb: (yes, even to the naughty hijackers LOL:lol

I think Im going to start a new journal without the words 'newbie' 'girl' and 'pictures' in the title because I really dont want to come across as a stupid, impressionable little bimbo :tongue: !

I think now would be a good point to start afresh because from now on im going to try a few different approaches to training to see which ones work best.

ps. i hope nobody thinks im offended or anything because im not- i just want a shiny new journal that doesnt make me look and sound like a cluless newbie!!! (well i may still be a bit new and clueless, but hopefully not for long)

pps. only extremely sensible posts are allowed on the new journal...LOL just joking:tongue:


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## d4ead (Nov 3, 2008)

hmmm sad it seems that natural1 just wants to argue for the sake of it, i thought i argued my points well giving all the examples i needed to, yet he still asks for examples funny that.

i have simply come to the conclusion hes nothing more then a clueless noob thats read 2 issues of flex.

Hes completely unable to express his points with any degree of rationality. Unless of course English is not his first language, if thats the case it would explain a lot.

Hes wasting time giving examples of points that have no baring on his argument, then complains when we pick holes in them saying its an example, well hang on it was your retaliation to the point we made.

I honestly just think he does not have a clue at all.


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## d4ead (Nov 3, 2008)

the point you are still returning to

at any given weight the guy that can rep the most will be stronger.

is not a valid point, we have all told you this. That is exactly what i said in my post yet you quoted it again in your retaliation.

Simply because the point of the lower reps is that you would INCREASE the weight. So the situation of the same weight for more reps would never exist.

Incidentally 10x10 is a load of bollox.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

I like HIT myself, it gives me more time to do the important things in my life.

I am in and out of the gym in 25 minutes.

I find single reps only cause injury and for me there are no benefits that I see other than tendonitis.

Might be age related though.

I have done the 10 sets of 10 thing, and I do feel a good degree of fetigue, but I dont like spending alot of time in the gym if I dont have to.

10 x 10 might be good for shocking the muscle, but it isnt anything that I would want to do for any prolonged period of time.

remember, we can have diffrent amounts of certain fiber types, some guys have more fast twitch muscle fibers than others, modifications to the routine would be warranted.

Diffrent bodyparts have diffrent % of muscle fiber types, for example, lower reps for hamstrings work super well for me, higher reps for quads work well for me too.


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## TH0R (Aug 15, 2007)

Did Heineken have anything to do with this thread hijack??

Probably the best thread hijack in the world

Just read some of your training journal V, I think your doing fine hun, Keep it up


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## VforVictory (May 4, 2009)

Greekgoddess said:


> VforVictory I can totally understand your decision to start a new journal. Hope to be able to contribute to it in the future.
> 
> I think trying different things and finding out what works for you as an individual is a good thing to do. Once you find something that works for you stick with it until it stops working, then change it again.
> 
> But don't give up the fight to improve yourself, you are doing so well.XXXXX


Thanks GG! 

Yeah I think this 'newbie girl' journal needs to be sent to the archives! I think that its time to step it up a gear, sort out the training dilemmas and see where it goes from there!


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## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

Natural1 said:


> Mikes HIT required sets to be taken to failure am I correct? How is this low "intensity"


??????? Do you actually read posts or like the sound of your own voice as you type???

Im genuinely ineterested as you seem to ignore what anyone says and type you own merry way..

The only one i can be bothered to reply to is statement above???

Did i say, infer, or do any thing to suggest that i thought HIT was low intensity??

Where on earth do you get this [email protected]..

And why do you find need to continually edit posts hours, sometimes days after your intial posting???

And why did you change Vs workout???

Do you not have any courage of your convictions???

If I had written a routine I would have stuck by what I posted and not changed due to peer pressue..

Also you will find, None of my posts have been edited after i have intially posted...

Unlike yours...

Yes I know you wil try defend yourself with some utter tripe as to the reason, but as far as im concerned you go away google and come back..

You do yourself no favours


----------



## Natural1 (Mar 23, 2009)

d4ead said:


> hmmm sad it seems that natural1 just wants to argue for the sake of it


Absolutely not, I'll debate a point if I feel I have something to add to it, arguing purely for the sake of it would prove fruitless don't you think?



d4ead said:


> i thought i argued my points well giving all the examples i needed to, yet he still asks for examples funny that.


You were NOT specific as to which point of mine you disagreed with, if you QUOTE me on it then address it, I'll know to what point you are referring.



d4ead said:


> i have simply come to the conclusion hes nothing more then a clueless noob thats read 2 issues of flex.


LOL. Great debating strategies you have.. :whistling:



d4ead said:


> Hes completely unable to express his points with any degree of rationality. Unless of course English is not his first language, if thats the case it would explain a lot.


Ok you've made a claim, now QUOTE me on something specific that supports this assertion.



d4ead said:


> Hes wasting time giving examples of points that have no baring on his argument


All the examples given are in direct relation to the points being made, it's not my problem if you have difficulty understanding them. If there is anything specific you have issue with, then QUOTE it and explain why.. I'll be happy to offer further input.



d4ead said:


> then complains when we pick holes in them saying its an example


There are no "holes" in my examples, nothing specific as been mentioned and the arguments that have been brought up I have countered.


----------



## Natural1 (Mar 23, 2009)

d4ead said:


> the point you are still returning to
> 
> at any given weight the guy that can rep the most will be stronger.
> 
> is not a valid point, we have all told you this.


Actually What I said was that it's likely that guy able to rep any given weight for longer would be *BIGGER* NOT STRONGER!!!!! Please read my posts properly before you respond. Sometimes we just need to exercise a little common sense. Think about it.. 300lbs, who'll be bigger the guy who'll rep it for 1 rep who the guy that can rep it 10 times?



d4ead said:


> Simply because the point of the lower reps is that you would INCREASE the weight. So the situation of the same weight for more reps would never exist.


You're missing the point see above.. for any given load, the person who can produce the most amount of reps with it will likely be bigger.. ok give and take things such as fiber type ratio etc.. all else being equal the guy repping 300lbs for 10 reps will likely be bigger then the guy who can only rep it once right...? Does this not makes sense to you?



d4ead said:


> Incidentally 10x10 is a load of bollox.


Would you like to explain how you came to that conclusion seeing that it's a proven and establised training system.


----------



## WRT (May 21, 2009)

Theres only 1 way to settle this and that's to compare gunnage.


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## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

Natural1 said:


> Would you like to explain how you came to that conclusion seeing that it's a proven and establised training system.


Who uses it??? and whats it benefit for real world application then????


----------



## LittleChris (Jan 17, 2009)

This debate isn't really going anywhere is it! :lol:


----------



## YoungGun (Mar 30, 2008)

WRT said:


> Theres only 1 way to settle this and that's to compare gunnage.


 :lol:

Natural hits Joe with a side Tri.

Joe responds with a back double bi, with the words "kapow" ringing in everyones ears. :lol: :lol:


----------



## Natural1 (Mar 23, 2009)

jw007 said:


> Im genuinely ineterested as you seem to ignore what anyone says and type you own merry way..


I had hoped what I had typed would had helped others understand the points. Again I ask you to quote something specific that I've posted that you have an issue with then I'll address it.



jw007 said:


> Did i say, infer, or do any thing to suggest that i thought HIT was low intensity??
> 
> Where on earth do you get this [email protected]


From you mate, the words you used to express your opinion implied that HIT was low intensity.. I quote:



jw007 said:


> *Mike Mentzers HIT has very low volume and frequency and intensity.*


^^Notice how you put 'intensity' in with low volume, frequency AND...



jw007 said:


> And why do you find need to continually edit posts hours, sometimes days after your intial posting???


What the hell as that got to do with anything, the edit feature is there to be used, if I think of a better way to put something, I edit it.. WOW you guys get funny over the silliest things.



jw007 said:


> And why did you change Vs workout???
> 
> Do you not have any courage of your convictions???


I gave her the option a 3 day routine, I've not changed anything, V is free as I said earlier to train any which way she wishes.



jw007 said:


> If I had written a routine I would have stuck by what I posted and not changed due to peer pressue..


Pressure? LOL I gave her another option that may suit her better based on her current lifestyle what with studies etc..



jw007 said:


> Also you will find, None of my posts have been edited after i have intially posted...
> 
> Unlike yours...


They're also rather thin on substance. Ad-Hominem seems to be the extent of your debating skills.



jw007 said:


> Yes I know you wil try defend yourself with some utter tripe as to the reason, but as far as im concerned you go away google and come back..
> 
> You do yourself no favours


You're welcome to think that I have to "google" for information. I mean, it's crazy to think that someone might actually know what their talking about and actually have some decent knowledge!! huh? lol!

I'll take that as a complment.


----------



## Guest (Jul 16, 2009)

Natural= skinny 130lb scientist with no real world experience

JW= drug abuser with little no actual knowledge besides how to load a syringe

Tall= faceless key board warrior that sucks up to jw kind of like the little fish that follow sharks around feeding off the sharks scraps


----------



## welshrager (May 27, 2009)

Con said:


> Natural= skinny 130lb scientist with no real world experience
> 
> JW= drug abuser with little no actual knowledge besides how to load a syringe
> 
> Tall= faceless key board warrior that sucks up to jw kind of like the little fish that follow sharks around feeding off the sharks scraps


gahaa :lol: :laugh:


----------



## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

Natural1 said:


> I had hoped what I had typed would had helped others understand the points. Again I ask you to quote something specific that I've posted that you have an issue with then I'll address it.
> 
> From you mate, the words you used to express your opinion implied that HIT was low intensity.. I quote:
> 
> ...


you are a RETARD

*As you like name dropping, Mike Mentzers HIT has very low volume and frequency and intensity I would say is no more than most peoples workouts the world over...*

why did you cut my sentance short to suit your own purpose??

Is that the way you try to justify your bollox responses???

Now please answer my question fully posting the full sentance mr fckin cut and past boy

Ps

V didnt request you change her routine because of lifestyle, you changed form peer pressure

lets add lying to your list of fck ups

Yes RETARD was a flame as im annoyed you feel you can truncate my sentaces to suit your own retarded cause


----------



## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

ps RETARD is not ad hominem is a direct insult..

You truncater


----------



## Natural1 (Mar 23, 2009)

jw007 said:


> Who uses it??? and whats it benefit for real world application then????


One of the worlds greatest trainers Charles Poliquin for a start!

"In strength-coaching circles, this method is often called the "ten sets method." Because it has its roots in German-speaking countries, I like to call it German Volume Training. To the best of my knowledge, this training system originated in Germany in the mid-'70's and was popularized by Rolf Feser, who was then the National Coach of Weightlifting. A similar protocol was promoted by *Vince Gironda* in the U.S., but regardless of who actually invented it, it works.

In Germany, the ten-sets method was used in the off-season to help weightlifters gain lean body mass. It was so efficient that lifters routinely moved up a full weight class within 12 weeks. It was the base program of Canadian weightlifter Jacques Demers, Silver Medalist in the Los Angeles Olympic Games. Jacques was known in weightlifting circles for his massive thighs, and he gives credit to the German method for achieving such a spectacular level of hypertrophy. The same method was also used by Bev Francis in her early days of bodybuilding to pack on muscle"

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/luis13.htm


----------



## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

Con said:


> Natural= skinny 130lb scientist with no real world experience
> 
> *JW= drug abuser with little no actual knowledge besides how to load a syringe*
> 
> Tall= faceless key board warrior that sucks up to jw kind of like the little fish that follow sharks around feeding off the sharks scraps


Like you need to know anything else:thumb:


----------



## Guest (Jul 16, 2009)

Natural1 said:


> One of the worlds greatest trainers Charles Poliquin for a start!
> 
> "In strength-coaching circles, this method is often called the "ten sets method." Because it has its roots in German-speaking countries, I like to call it German Volume Training. To the best of my knowledge, this training system originated in Germany in the mid-'70's and was popularized by Rolf Feser, who was then the National Coach of Weightlifting. A similar protocol was promoted by *Vince Gironda* in the U.S., but regardless of who actually invented it, it works.
> 
> ...


I actually read this not too long ago.

4 second negative and a 2 second positive meaning each set lasts 1 minute and then only one minute rest between sets. I dont care how tough you think your work outs are that will fvck you up


----------



## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

Natural1 said:


> One of the worlds greatest trainers Charles Poliquin for a start!
> 
> "In strength-coaching circles, this method is often called the "ten sets method." Because it has its roots in German-speaking countries, I like to call it German Volume Training. To the best of my knowledge, this training system originated in Germany in the mid-'70's and was popularized by Rolf Feser, who was then the National Coach of Weightlifting. A similar protocol was promoted by *Vince Gironda* in the U.S., but regardless of who actually invented it, it works.
> 
> ...


WTF?????

Cut and paste???

real world application..

Who do you train that uses it??

WHAT IS IT USED FOR??

Not who has used it in past??

Bev francis did not use that as foundation of workout, I have met her in new york

Your a liar


----------



## Guest (Jul 16, 2009)

jw007 said:


> WTF?????
> 
> Cut and paste???
> 
> ...


Conditioning training for power athletes.

Once upon a time i had gf from belgium and her dad trained all the dutch guys and the ten times ten was part of his system to start the training cycle for a contest and then the reps and sets slowly decreased.

The majority of people just go "oh ten times ten that sounds hard lets do it" and thats why they see either over training or no gains using it. That said is it me or is bodybuilding the only sport where people think its fine to go to a gym with no plan and just "lift weights", you dont see power athletes doing this in fact you see no other athlete doing this ever.....


----------



## TH0R (Aug 15, 2007)

Think I've found out who Natty1 is


----------



## Natural1 (Mar 23, 2009)

jw007 said:


> you are a RETARD
> 
> As you like name dropping, Mike Mentzers HIT has very low volume and frequency and intensity I would say is no more than most peoples workouts the world over...
> 
> ...


It makes no difference to the original point, that being that high intensity training is usually low in volume.



jw007 said:


> Ps
> 
> V didnt request you change her routine because of lifestyle, you changed form peer pressure
> 
> ...


You are welcome to your opinion, I find it rather comical that the only guy that's offered ACTUAL TRAINING advice is being flamed for that very thing.



jw007 said:


> WTF?????
> 
> Cut and paste???


You asked a question, I provided you with an answer and a link, good grief you do cry over the silliest things.



jw007 said:


> WHAT IS IT USED FOR??


Hypertrophy.



jw007 said:


> Not who has used it in past??


This point is void, perhaps you would like to explain to the board how much the human physiology has changed in a few decades? Plus Charles is a strength coach OF TODAY that uses this application, read the article..



jw007 said:


> Bev francis did not use that as foundation of workout, I have met her in new york
> 
> Your a liar


I did not write the article, I quoted from the author, take it up with him.

Here's another article talking about GVT 10x10 there are many more.

http://www.bodybuildinginformation.com/german-volume-training.html

JW, your constant use of ad-hominem and lack of any substance in your replies doesn't do your cause any favours.


----------



## TH0R (Aug 15, 2007)

the ad hominem fallacy fallacy

One of the most widely misused terms on the Net is "ad hominem". It is most often

introduced into a discussion by certain delicate types, delicate of personality and

mind, whenever their opponents resort to a bit of sarcasm. As soon as the suspicion

of an insult appears, they summon the angels of ad hominem to smite down their

foes, before ascending to argument heaven in a blaze of sanctimonious glory. They

may not have much up top, but by God, they don't need it when they've got ad hominem

on their side. It's the secret weapon that delivers them from any argument unscathed.


----------



## Natural1 (Mar 23, 2009)

tel3563 said:


> Think I've found out who Natty1 is


I aim to post substance not insults. Nothings to be gained by getting too personal. Funny how I'm viewed as the bad guy here, perhaps you could explain why? Surely you're not suggesting that having an opinion and being able to explaining it using logic and substance equates to making me a bad person are you..


----------



## dmcc (Nov 25, 2007)

As I can't be bothered looking up dictionary.com, can someone explain to me what he means by "ad hominem"?


----------



## Natural1 (Mar 23, 2009)

tel3563 said:


> the ad hominem fallacy fallacy
> 
> One of the most widely misused terms on the Net is "ad hominem". It is most often
> 
> ...


There is no defense however much you wish for one for personal insults. This shows a complete lack of knowledge and debating skills and counters nothing.


----------



## TH0R (Aug 15, 2007)

Natural1 said:


> I aim to post substance not insults. Nothings to be gained by getting too personal. Funny how I'm viewed as the bad guy here, perhaps you could explain why? Surely you're not suggesting that having an opinion and being able to explaining it using logic and substance equates to making me a bad person are you..


Listen Bud, don't call me shirley, OK


----------



## Natural1 (Mar 23, 2009)

dmcc said:


> As I can't be bothered looking up dictionary.com, can someone explain to me what he means by "ad hominem"?


"An *ad hominem*, also known as *argumentum ad hominem* (Latin: "argument to the man", "argument against the man") consists of replying to an argument or factual claim by attacking or appealing to a characteristic or belief of the person making the argument or claim, rather than by addressing the substance of the argument or producing against the claim." -wikipedia

In other words, when lacking in substance.. take the ****.


----------



## Guest (Jul 16, 2009)

WRT said:


>


Easy there bud making fun of people suffering from downsyndrome is not cool............................


----------



## tom jones (Jul 7, 2008)

WRT said:


>


Man...thats in real bad taste...


----------



## WRT (May 21, 2009)

Yes it was i've removed it, wasn't taking the pi*s just getting my point across.


----------



## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

Guys stop the insulting it is against board rules adds nothing to a debate this is aimed at every one not any individual


----------



## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

Natural1 said:


> It makes no difference to the original point, that being that high intensity training is usually low in volume.


Thats not what you said at first is it Natty???

"Frequency is dictated by the COMBINATION of volume and intensity. What's the difference.. 6 sets 1x per week, 3 sets 2x per week, 2 sets 3x per week, all add up to a weekly workload of 6 sets.. You see how a weekly total of 6 sets can be managed in more than one way"

I dont see any "usually" in there???

So what is it??

A direct question???

IS Frequency is dictated by the COMBINATION of volume and intensity.

or

Frequency is "usually" dictated by the COMBINATION of volume and intensity.

which one????

If 2nd answer then thats not fact is it as "usually" is not fact...

I "usually" [email protected] at 6pm every night is not same as

I [email protected] at 6pm every night

Do I Get a straight answer with your ad hominem responses???


----------



## Natural1 (Mar 23, 2009)

jw007 said:


> Thats not what you said at first is it Natty???
> 
> "Frequency is dictated by the COMBINATION of volume and intensity. What's the difference.. 6 sets 1x per week, 3 sets 2x per week, 2 sets 3x per week, all add up to a weekly workload of 6 sets.. You see how a weekly total of 6 sets can be managed in more than one way"
> 
> ...


Answer: Frequency is "usually" dictated by the COMBINATION of volume and intensity.

JW.

What you need to realize is that there is nothing *set in stone* in this game. There are too many variables, individual work capacity, genetics, natural/enhanced etc the list goes on.

All we can do is go by basic principles.

The principle is that greater volume at greater intensities require lower frequency. If one wishes to train at a higher frequency then something has to give either volume or intensity.

That said, this is with single factor 'super compensation in mind and not dual factor training (DFT) which bends the 'rules' a little.

I'm really not concerned about being negged for my ability to debate in a logical fashion, if you think that being the "the red" is something that concerns me the think again. Frankly it's a mis use of the repping system to neg someone based on difference of opinion but I expected it, it was predictable. Sad.


----------



## TH0R (Aug 15, 2007)

jw007 said:


> I "usually" [email protected] at 6pm every night is not same as
> 
> I [email protected] at 6pm every night


Is there any truth in the rumour that its dependent on whether DMCC has to work

overtime or not:whistling:


----------



## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

Natural1 said:


> Answer: Frequency is "usually" dictated by the COMBINATION of volume and intensity.
> 
> JW.
> 
> ...


Then why didnt you post that intially??

So you agree, your first statement was incorrect then yes????

Your negged because of your utter bollox use of ad hominem and inferences to that effect.... as stated on your big red NEG REP

*And it clearly bothers you, as why else would you mention it????*


----------



## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

Natural1 said:


> Answer: Frequency is "usually" dictated by the COMBINATION of volume and intensity.
> 
> JW.
> 
> ...


*And stop editing your posts*

*Have some courage of your convictions without resorting to google*


----------



## Natural1 (Mar 23, 2009)

jw007 said:


> Then why didnt you post that intially??
> 
> So you agree, your first statement was incorrect then yes????


No it was not incorrect. I posted it as a fact with single factor super compensation in mind and not DFT, I had no wish to further complicate the discussion for the benefit of others.

When using single factor super compensation, intensity and volume dictates frequency, in fact it works all ways, intensity and frequency dictate volume, they are all related to deny this is like arguing that sky isn't blue.

Now DFT is something more complex, things change somewhat...



jw007 said:


> Your negged because of your utter bollox use of ad hominem and inferences to that effect.... as stated on your big red NEG REP
> 
> *And it clearly bothers you, as why else would you mention it????*


You abused the repping system, I was not rude or insulting. if it makes you happy to red neg me, fine, whatever floats your boat.

Negging is no replacment for having substance to your argument. Weak sauce man, weak.


----------



## Natural1 (Mar 23, 2009)

jw007 said:


> *And stop editing your posts*
> 
> *Have some courage of your convictions without resorting to google*


lol just because i know wot im talking about you assume im using google. Funny..


----------



## Tall (Aug 14, 2007)

Natural1 said:


> JW, your constant use of ad-hominem and lack of any substance in your replies doesn't do your cause any favours.


Hi,

You're actually missing the point 

The following has been previously established:

A) You take yourself far too seriously

2) You're incapable of forming your own answer which isn't based on Copy&Paste

D) You won't actually listen when people explain your views are incorrect

2) It's much more amusing to have fun than argue.

Therefore I would assert that the above statement is incorrect, false, devoid of truth, without substance, and challenge you to determine why JW's cause has no favors offered based on his method of response.

Stay focussed Natty, you have all the tools to do what you want.

My adviCe would be to read everyone's posts, not the childish insUlts but the substance.. the actual training related informatioN and draw your own conclusions as to what you feel is correcT.


----------



## Tall (Aug 14, 2007)

Natural1 said:


> No it was not incorrect. I posted it as a fact with single factor super compensation in mind and not DFT, I had no wish to further complicate the discussion for the benefit of others.
> 
> When using single factor super compensation, intensity and volume dictates frequency, in fact it works all ways, intensity and frequency dictate volume, they are all related to deny this is like arguing that sky isn't blue.
> 
> ...


Super Compensation?

Dated concept. Never proven.

This is just basic stuff amigo...


----------



## Tall (Aug 14, 2007)

Natural1 said:


> lol just because i know *wot *im talking about you assume im using google. Funny..


Txt spk is an offence on this board which merits a ban...


----------



## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

TBH i should have negged you from day one for your under hand smarming perving..

(yes I stil 100% believe that to be the case, he who protests too much and all that  )

Think yourself lucky you got an ad hominem neg


----------



## Natural1 (Mar 23, 2009)

Tall said:


> Hi,
> 
> 2) You're incapable of forming your own answer which isn't based on Copy&Paste


All my posts are my own thoughts/words unless stated otherwise and link provided. Your suggestions that I need to "copy and paste" does not make them so. Lame argument, you have no evidence.



Tall said:


> D) You won't actually listen when people explain your views are incorrect


My posts are not incorrect, quote something specific if you feel so, I've *requested repeatedly* that those that wish to claim I am wrong in any way to *quote my post and explain why*, so far.. it hasn't happened.

You guys negged me for a difference in opinion which is weak.


----------



## Tall (Aug 14, 2007)

Natural1 said:


> *Answer: Frequency is "usually" dictated by the COMBINATION of volume and intensity. *
> 
> JW.
> 
> ...


No it's not...

Frequency is based on event occurance along an axis of time.

Frequency has nothing to do with intensity (either as a %1rm or a restriction in rest time)

Volume is linked to frequency, as volume increases with frequency.

Frequency does not increase with volume.

If you trained 100reps on back on a Friday once per week, the frequency remains static as does volume.

If you trained 200reps on back on a Friday, the frequency still remains static, with volume increasing.

If you trained 100 reps on back on a Friday and a Tuesday, then then frequency has caused the volume to increase.

Next...


----------



## Natural1 (Mar 23, 2009)

Tall said:


> Super Compensation?
> 
> Dated concept. Never proven.
> 
> This is just basic stuff amigo...


LOL.

Notice I said SINGLE FACTOR and super compensation as it's known by both those terms. In other words NOT dual factor training.

Some may understand single factor AS super compensation as that is what it's most often refereed to. FACT


----------



## Tall (Aug 14, 2007)

Natural1 said:


> All my posts are my own thoughts/words unless stated otherwise and link provided. Your suggestions that I need to "copy and paste" does not make them so. Lame argument, you have no evidence.
> 
> My posts are not incorrect, quote something specific if you feel so, I've *requested repeatedly* that those that wish to claim I am wrong in any way to *quote my post and explain why*, so far.. it hasn't happened.
> 
> You guys negged me for a difference in opinion which is weak.


I negged you for a *veiled* insult 

Just like I will be negging you for the above veiled insult


----------



## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

Natural1 said:


> My posts are not incorrect, quote something specific if you feel so, I've *requested repeatedly* that those that wish to claim I am wrong in any way to *quote my post and explain why*, so far.. it hasn't happened.


*"Frequency is dictated by the COMBINATION of volume and intensity."*

Natty, You posted above..

Its is incorrect, by your own admission it is incorrect...

Whatever you have in your mind at time of writing is irrelevant, It is an in correct statement..

How many fckin times?????????


----------



## dmcc (Nov 25, 2007)

God this is better than EastEnders.


----------



## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

Natural1 said:


> *LOL.*
> 
> Notice I said SINGLE FACTOR and super compensation as it's known by both those terms. In other words NOT dual factor training.
> 
> *Some* may understand single factor AS super compensation as that is what it's most often refereed to. FACT


whats funny???

and who are some????


----------



## Tall (Aug 14, 2007)

Natural1 said:


> LOL.
> 
> Notice I said SINGLE FACTOR and super compensation as it's known by both those terms. In other words NOT dual factor training.
> 
> Some may understand single factor AS super compensation as that is what it's most often refereed to. FACT


Single Factor Training is a name given to a method.

Super Compensation is a concept.

No one refers to it as Super Compensation Training. FACT.

Linear Progress only works for new lifters. Next.


----------



## Natural1 (Mar 23, 2009)

Tall said:


> No it's not...
> 
> Frequency is based on event occurance along an axis of time.
> 
> ...


You are confusing *total weekly volume* with *session volume*

Two different things.


----------



## Natural1 (Mar 23, 2009)

Well I called it SINGLE FACTOR lol too funny..



Tall said:


> Linear Progress only works for new lifters. Next.


Correct and what is V?


----------



## Tall (Aug 14, 2007)

Natural1 said:


> You are confusing *total weekly volume* with *session volume*
> 
> Two different things.


No son, I'm not.

Do you often ask people how frequently they train back during a single training session?

I mean, you can do, but you'd look stupid


----------



## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

Tall said:


> No son, I'm not.
> 
> Do you often ask people how frequently they train back during a single training session?
> 
> I mean, you can do, but you'd look *stupid-er *


----------



## Natural1 (Mar 23, 2009)

Tall said:


> No son, I'm not.
> 
> Do you often ask people how frequently they train back during a single training session?
> 
> I mean, you can do, but you'd look stupid


I should thank you as you've provided me with a great example which proves my point:



Tall said:


> If you trained 200reps on back on a Friday, the frequency still remains static, with volume increasing.
> 
> If you trained 100 reps on back on a Friday and a Tuesday, then then frequency has caused the volume to increase.
> 
> Next...


Two types of volume

Session volume = volume performed in a single session.

Weekly volume = Volume performed per week.

In both your examples you have the lifter performing 200 rep per week.

In eg 1 he performs 200 reps in one single session.

In eg 2 he performs 200 reps in two sessions.

In eg 1 he performs more session volume at a lesser frequency

In eg 2 he performs less session volume at a higher frequency.

You see how this all works...

Now I'm away for the weekend, I'll be unable to respond to any further posts until Sunday evening at the earliest. Unless I can be bothered to post in the early hours...


----------



## Tall (Aug 14, 2007)

Natural1 said:


> I should thank you as you've provided me with a great example which proves my point:
> 
> Two types of volume
> 
> ...


You've yet to prove a point.

I posted three examples.

The Control, and two Variations.

What I proved was the following statement if yours is utter drivel:



> *Frequency is dictated by the COMBINATION of volume and intensity.*


----------



## LittleChris (Jan 17, 2009)

dmcc said:


> God this is better than EastEnders.


Its good, but not that good!

How does Natural1 still have 7k reps, and more importantly, who repped him and for what advice? :whistling:


----------



## Tall (Aug 14, 2007)

Natural1 said:


> Now I'm away for the weekend, I'll be unable to respond to any further posts until Sunday evening at the earliest. Unless I can be bothered to post in the early hours...


No one cares mate.



> Negged by those who didn't like it, for being able to debate in a calm and logical fashion. Negs are no substitute for the lack of substance.


What's "it"...? I dont think you've copied and pasted that quote correctly...


----------



## Tall (Aug 14, 2007)

LittleChris said:


> Its good, but not that good!
> 
> How does Natural1 still have 7k reps, and more importantly, who repped him and for what advice? :whistling:


Ask a Mod.


----------



## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Hey, this is a nice debate, but honestly the missed dotting of the I's and the crossing of the T's is just majoring in the minors.

No flames guys, I dont care who is doing it, I am feeling very intollerant at the moment, besides V's journal got hyjacked by like 5 pages or more.

Play nice kiddies or I will lock this thread or be forced to do something else.


----------



## d4ead (Nov 3, 2008)

Just to respond to er about 4 pages ago,

I don't like 10x10 because I tried it for 3 months and didn't like it. Just a personal opinion as is everything I write.

I actualy didn't have any issue with your ideas, but you seem to think that you have been debateing well when to me it just looked like you ignored others points. Its just a personal view to it all.

My opinion on training comes from nothing more then the improvments I got when I switched to my current traing pattern.

Because I post from my mobile its not as easy to do the individual quotes you do. Also by only quoting part sentances out of context don't really help.

I won't post again as I don't feel anything of value will be gained from it.


----------



## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

Tall said:


> Txt spk is an offence on this board which merits a ban...


so is harrassing a member through the rep system 



LittleChris said:


> How does Natural1 still have 7k reps, and more importantly, who repped him and for what advice? :whistling:


to be fair chris his base advice is decent can you tell me what you see wrong with what he has said.....


----------



## Natural1 (Mar 23, 2009)

Tall said:


> You've yet to prove a point.
> 
> I posted three examples.
> 
> ...


Your example helped support my point Tall:



Tall said:


> If you trained 100reps on back on a Friday once per week, the frequency remains static as does volume.
> 
> If you trained 200reps on back on a Friday, the frequency still remains static, with volume increasing.
> 
> If you trained 100 reps on back on a Friday and a Tuesday, then then frequency has caused the volume to increase.


In the 2nd and 3rd example you increased *total weekly volume*. The 2nd example by *increasing session volume* at the *same frequency*, the 3rd example with the *same session volume* but *increased frequency*. As I've been saying volume, intensity and frequency are all inter related and your example has served to give a real world example of this fact.

No, it's not 'drivel'

You could for examples sake perform 20 hard sets once per week for a major body part but you wouldn't do 20 hard sets every other day would you? You could however perform 2-4 moderately hard sets 3-4 times per week.

To ignore the relationship between volume, frequency and intensity is to ignore reality.

PS> I'm going away till Sunday night so won't be able to reply any further till then.


----------



## Tall (Aug 14, 2007)

Natural1 said:


> Your example helped support my point Tall:
> 
> In the 2nd and 3rd example you increased *total weekly volume*. The 2nd example by *increasing session volume* at the *same frequency*, the 3rd example with the *same session volume* but *increased frequency*. As I've been saying volume, intensity and frequency are all inter related and your example has served to give a real world example of this fact.
> 
> ...


No, you claimed that:



> *Frequency is dictated by the COMBINATION of volume and intensity.*


Whereas I proved Volume would increase with frequency.

You're now changing your argument, again  , and claiming what other people has written is your own.

To answer your question yes I could go and do 20 hard sets every other day. Next.


----------



## Tall (Aug 14, 2007)

Pscarb said:


> so is harrassing a member through the rep system


Thankfully I've ensured I've not done that, I've just negged him for insulting me


----------



## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

ok i just read through all the posts and to be fair i like what natural is saying i believe our own MOD BIG thinks in the same way....all i see this is a difference of opinion so lets cool it now guys it adds nothing to the board and makes us look like BB.com where newbies with any info to share are slated.....


----------



## Jacko89 (Mar 4, 2009)

Can we talk to V now? HIIII V. How ya doing hun?


----------



## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

V moved her journal due to hyjacking.

I along with Paul appreciate natural1's input on training.


----------



## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

Bump


----------



## Tall (Aug 14, 2007)

Pscarb said:


> ok i just read through all the posts and to be fair i like what natural is saying i believe our own MOD BIG thinks in the same way....all i see this is a difference of opinion so lets cool it now guys it adds nothing to the board and makes us look like BB.com where newbies with any info to share are slated.....


I'll email Big :thumbup1:

Wouldn't be fair to be assumptive on his opinions without him being able to give his input


----------



## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

Tall said:


> I'll email Big :thumbup1:
> 
> Wouldn't be fair to be assumptive on his opinions without him being able to give his input


I concur

Ive never heard him talk such errrr..... stuff either


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## Tall (Aug 14, 2007)

jw007 said:


> I concur
> 
> Ive never heard him talk such errrr..... stuff either


Big I know thinks that newbies should work on getting stronger using simple routines, before moving to periodised routines.

That yoth whats his face is just cobbling together random arguments which don't stack up, and when proven wrong claims my post is what he said :lol:

I think he (not Big) might actually be a woman? :whistling:


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## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

Tall said:


> Big I know thinks that newbies should work on getting stronger using simple routines, before moving to periodised routines.
> 
> That yoth whats his face is just cobbling together random arguments which don't stack up, and when proven wrong claims my post is what he said :lol:
> 
> I think he (not Big) might actually be a woman? :whistling:


Judging by that tricep shot Im tempted to concur again..

Alas Unless she\he is a lezza would not account for intial smarming, so I say male-ish of sorts..

Note

Above is NOT in anyway a flame, just voicing an opinion


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## Tall (Aug 14, 2007)

jw007 said:


> Judging by that tricep shot Im tempted to concur again..
> 
> Alas Unless she\he is a lezza would not account for intial smarming, so I say male-ish of sorts..
> 
> ...


JW007 - He's Pro Choice :thumbup1:


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Guys, lets please stop the subtle digs, that isnt cool, and not the attribudes of senior members.

If you disagree then so be it, but lets not agree in a civilized mannor, outside of that it is flames and to that, I wont tollerate it.

That is not the profile of the board.

I might add that he is trying to help V.

His routine I dont see alot of holes in if it is my space to give my opinion.

I have not read the whole thread, and I am at home but when at work I will.

And another thing, I can read all the rep comments, some of them are in fact an abuse of the rep system.

Other than that, good going V, too bad your journal got hyjacked to hell.

Did 10 x 10 yesterday and it recked me......lol

Sore today.


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## Natural1 (Mar 23, 2009)

Hi Tall.



Tall said:


> Whereas I proved Volume would increase with frequency.


What you showed Tall was that TOTAL accumulated volume over the course of the week would increase due to an increase in frequency.. NOT session volume which is a different thing.

2 sets per day is low session volume but a total weekly accumulated volume of 14 sets.

14 sets once a week is high session volume but low frequency with weekly volume remaining the same.

You have to understand the distinction between *session volume* and *total weekly volume* as they are too very different things.



Tall said:


> You're now changing your argument, again.


I've changed nothing, what I've been saying I stand by and that is that there is a relationship between volume, intensity and frequency, I've been saying this and have not changed this line of reasoning in any way shape or form.



Tall said:


> and claiming what other people has written is your own.


Plagiarism is a serious accusation. Please state EXACTLY what it is you feel I have plagiarized. If you're not specific I'll assume this is merely another "stab" at me personally with no foundation.



Tall said:


> To answer your question yes I could go and do 20 hard sets every other day. Next.


So you tolerate high volume, this in no way negates the point. DO YOU ACTUALLY train using 20 sets per body part every other day in your day to day training? If not then why not?

You could train 1 set 20 times per day to = 20 sets for that day but you'd not perform 20 sets 20 times a day would you.. you see how this works? Lower volume = the potential for greater frequency. Higher volume necessitates longer recovery (all in the context of single factor training of course)



Tall said:


> Thankfully I've ensured I've not done that, I've just negged him for insulting me


This won't wash Tall, I never insulted you on a personal level. I mentioned a line of reasoning of yours was stupid (ie the example of an old women with her shopping bags) this was in no way a personal insult, I did not call YOU stupid. You've negged me once for it, I assume that will be an end to the matter.



Tall said:


> That yoth whats his face is just cobbling together random arguments which don't stack up, and when proven wrong claims my post is what he said.


My arguments are clear and concise and I've certainly not claimed any of your words as my own, perhaps you'd like to show me where you think I've done this?

If you do not completely understand what it is I'm saying as is evidenced by some of your replies, just ask and I will be more than happy to explain further. Nothing I've said has been "proven wrong". The situation here is that you seem to lack the understanding between the various variables eg:

Total TUT.

Continuous TUT.

Session Volume.

Accumulated Volume.

Intensity, frequency, volume.

Once you understand the differences and how they relate to each other things fall into place.


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## Natural1 (Mar 23, 2009)

jw007

The mods have kindly requested that any abuse of the rep/neg system should stop. You've negged me very unfairly.

In reply to your comment you left with your neg.

I have ignored NOTHING and have addressed the points in as clear and concise manner as I know how. I have gone out of my way to help you and others understand the relationship between volume, intensity, frequency. I've explained the differences between session volume and total volume, I've tried to explain the role of TUT and the difference between continuous TUT/fatigue and total TUT. I've explained a little about the way workload can be managed into sets and reps and that this would vary depending on goals. I'm glad to post more if you have any questions. I've acknowledged the posts made to me and addressed them as best as I know how. To neg me with the comment you did is purely negging me for either 1/ A disagreement of opinion or 2/ A lack of understanding on the things being discussed.

If I am directly rude or insulting then I would be deserving a neg. However please kindly refrain from negging me in future for no valid reason other than a disagreement in opinion.

Thankyou.


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## Natural1 (Mar 23, 2009)

Pscarb said:


> ok i just read through all the posts and to be fair i like what natural is saying i believe our own MOD BIG thinks in the same way...





hackskii said:


> I along with Paul appreciate natural1's input on training.


Thanks guys. Appreciated.


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## big (Sep 14, 2004)

Well, I only cruise now, so I'm not sure I have enough test in my system to join in this debate 

A couple of my favourite ways of training are listed in my sig links. At the end of the day, we can have a mass debate (yes please) til we're blue in the face... nobody really knows it all, else they'd be a multi billionaire, as a guaranteed way to pile on mass for everybody would be worth something.

All I know, is that the years I've spent chatting to folks in the gym, they tend to make the following mistakes:

* Not eating enough, particularly protein

* Inconsistency, both with diet and training

* Expecting too much too soon

* Having 70%+ of their routine with high rep isolation work, avoiding compound work

* Not increasing the weights at all, never mind most sessions

* Using somebody else's training routine - usually someone with far better recovery abilities

In the absence of science, just eating more protein and switching to a 2-3x/week compound only routine would work wonders for most people. Sure, there will be better ways, but that's on an individual basis.

On a side note, this is somebody's progress thread.... let's help motivate her rather than feuding with each other


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

Beings as it says Newbie girl on the title, I think it would be nice to see more than one opinion on a routine for the Newbie V. Thanks for stepping up Natural1.

Joe and Tall post up a routine to help out V and others that want to grow to Alpha status.


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## Natural1 (Mar 23, 2009)

winger said:


> Thanks for stepping up Natural1.


Cheers.



winger said:


> Joe and Tall post up a routine to help out V and others that want to grow to Alpha status.


V has a new journal here:

http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/members-pictures/66964-vs-shiny-new-journal.html


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## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

winger said:


> Beings as it says Newbie girl on the title, I think it would be nice to see more than one opinion on a routine for the Newbie V. Thanks for stepping up Natural1.
> 
> Joe and Tall post up a routine to help out V and others that want to grow to Alpha status.


Well done Winger, Sh1t stir some more:thumb:

As for Vs routine I wil be happy to help with her training should she Pm me..

However Im not going to start spamming up her new one (like natty boy is) as she seems to have it covered, following a program that iu dont recall being nattys design:whistling:

As for the Dozen or so journals here where people are currently using routines of my design (you can tell which ones as they are all making progress:whistling

Including DMCCs specialist PL programme which is going great guns, amd should enable him to achieve a 300kg DL in 4 weeks time which would take him to very top percentile in this country

Personally I find it reckless and irrelevant to post up (like natural1 has done several times) a bog standard "cut and paste" one routine fits all for anyone..

You need to know several personal factors, lifestyle, goals, supplement use and genetic ability..

This can only be obtained by asking a few in depth personal questions which im in no doubt in most cases im sure people would not like posted on an open forum, thus unless I have all the FACTS i wont post a revised routine unless asked

Which is why I was super suprised given lack of info about Vs personal situation, goals and training experience NATTY felt he could indeed comment.

Thus gave rise to suspicions about his "ALTERIOR MOTIVES"

Now Winger you seem very conversant with his training philosophys, perhaps you would like to tell me how many members are currently following a training program of your design???

In no way a dig, just honestly interested:beer:


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## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

hackskii said:


> Guys, lets please stop the subtle digs, that isnt cool, and not the attribudes of senior members.
> 
> If you disagree then so be it, but lets not agree in a civilized mannor, outside of that it is flames and to that, I wont tollerate it.
> 
> ...


Scott...

With regards to Neg reps, the ones I gave natty iI feel fully justified and explained my reasons (why others have negged him ive no idea but they must have had a reason:whistling

If someone was going to "cut and paste" one of your excellent PCT posts, Truncate some of the sentances, and re-arrange them in a manner that completely mis-informs and Mis-represents what you intially had to say..

And does so in a negative manner, Im sure you would not be happy..

I was specific to my Neg, and that was it..

I would rather I was insulted on a personal level than some one trying to use my post for personal gain by misinformation...

That is not missuse of repping system.

What is IMO is because you read a neg comment and dont agree (which is personal opinion and why we have free speech surely???)

To then, pos rep just because of that is IMO abuse of power, and negates the reason we indeed have reps?????

Side Note

I see you have been doing `10x10 training????

Just because you have decided to do this is by no means and Validation of said program...

I could tell you I was standing in a potato field yesterday with a broom up my ar5e while curling some unfeasably large potatoes in each arm for 2 hours..

I could tell you I was sore all over and shot to sh1t by the end..

I could aslo then state, That having bigger Guns than you and being unquetionably stronger that this is the way forward and the most effective way to train..

However, we both know this is not the case


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## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

Natural1 said:


> jw007
> 
> The mods have kindly requested that any abuse of the rep/neg system should stop. You've negged me very unfairly.
> 
> ...


I have not negged you unfairly..

Please rather than cry like a Natty girl, seeing as you feel need to make it public (although intially you said it does not bother you, now you keep harping on about it, very very clearly it does)

Why dont you post up my excact comments rather than just your own take on the matter..

I was very clear as to my reasons, You truncated my sentance and use my post to mis-represent what i was saying.

Far more henious than an ad hominem attack or whatever you repeatedly go on about...

The bit in bold im going to neg you for...

The reason being (might as well make this public)

1) you have ignored various questions I have asked you

2) I am super insulted that you feel the need to "*help you and others understand the relationship between volume,intensity, frequency"*

When I have already stated clearly on SEVERAL occasions that I DO NOT BELIEVE THERE IS A DIRECT CORRELATION.

So as far as im comcerned that is an Ad hominem attack on my knowledge and statements i have already posted..

3) I also dont believe TUT has any relevance, As being capable of a 220kg bench, 350kg squat and 340kg DL all raw, I have nevcer once factored that sh1t into any of training I have done and again takle that as a personal insult that you are trying to educate me on it.....

I could go on but your really boring me now...

Lastly

Things you have not answered, I will put a letter by them so you can quote easier, and will be easier to see what you indeed choose to ignore when answering

A) why did you truncate my sentance re intensity etc etc with a view to mis-infroming people what i wrote

B) *Why do you repeatedly edit your posts*, hours, sometimes days after they have been replied to

C) you intially stated that you had limited time, That why only posted on "2 girls threads", when of late it seems you have all time in the world and have been online constantly "trying" toput your point across

D) why if you believe you have so much to offer, you are now just posting on just "1 girls thread" when you are online constantly and there are plenty of Natty guys doing journals that you could be helping out

E) why do you feel the need to explain things and change subjets, cutting and pasting articles that have no relevance???

F) If your training princicples are so effective, and can be used on anyone, as yourself state dyou are an avid trainer, why do you look like you dont even lift weights????

No one said the most knowledgeabl had to be the best, but if you can eveb obtaina decent physiuqe form your own pinciples, how can anyone else be expected to????

I have loads more, but im getting bored..

With all the tim eyou have im sure you will have a massive reply in no time.

While psoting no other useful information elsewhere


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## Natural1 (Mar 23, 2009)

jw007 said:


> However Im not going to start spamming up her new one (like natty boy is)


More nonsense. I posted a routine and asked a question. This does not quantify "Spam"



jw007 said:


> Personally I find it reckless and irrelevant to post up (like natural1 has done several times) a bog standard "cut and paste" one routine fits all for anyone..


No where have I made the claim that "1 size suits all". However what posting up a sensible routine can do is give a person a template they can use to help them to avoid typical "newbie" mistakes eg doing too much too soon.



jw007 said:


> Thus gave rise to suspicions about his "ALTERIOR MOTIVES"


You have been both rude and insulting in your personal insults and insinuations towards my intentions towards V on multiple occasions. How strange that you do not feel that this type of behavior is neg worthy.



jw007 said:


> With regards to Neg reps, the ones I gave natty iI feel fully justified and explained my reasons (why others have negged him ive no idea but they must have had a reason)


You've negged me for no other reason than harassment. Not one reason you've given is "valid" and simply equates to a difference of opinion. This IS NOT neg worthy.



jw007 said:


> If someone was going to "cut and paste" one of your excellent PCT posts, Truncate some of the sentances, and re-arrange them in a manner that completely mis-informs and Mis-represents what you intially had to say..
> 
> And does so in a negative manner, Im sure you would not be happy


Please state one example where you feel this has occurred other than the occasion where I misunderstood a sentence of yours due to wording. Right now all you're doing is throwing accusations around with nothing to substantiate your assertions.



jw007 said:


> I was specific to my Neg, and that was it..


The mods can see your reasons and will draw their own conclusions.



jw007 said:


> I have not negged you unfairly..


Not much.



jw007 said:


> Please rather than cry like a Natty girl, seeing as you feel need to make it public (although intially you said it does not bother you, now you keep harping on about it, very very clearly it does)


What bothers me is your *continual* *abuse* of the neg system. You are harassing another member through undeserved negs.



jw007 said:


> I was very clear as to my reasons, You truncated my sentance and use my post to mis-represent what i was saying.


There was ONE occasion where I simply misunderstood a sentence of yours due to the way it was worded. Fair enough if you feel you wanted to neg me for that, but three negs? Come on man this is *harassment and abuse*.



jw007 said:


> 1) you have ignored various questions I have asked you.


The fact that you seem to not understand the answers you were given does not negate the fact that they were answered. How sad that you feel you need to neg me, if you feel I've missed something. Feel free to mention anything I've ignored and I'll be happy to discuss it.



jw007 said:


> 2) I am super insulted that you feel the need to "help you and others understand the relationship between volume,intensity, frequency"
> 
> When I have already stated clearly on SEVERAL occasions that I DO NOT BELIEVE THERE IS A DIRECT CORRELATION.
> 
> So as far as im comcerned that is an Ad hominem attack on my knowledge and statements i have already posted..


Ah so here we get to the REAL reason you're harassing me, I've made posts that *DIFFER FROM YOUR OPINION*! You can believe there is no correlation if you so wish but have explained using reason and logic that IMO there is. Do you neg everyone that doesn't agree with you? Are you ALWAYS right?



jw007 said:


> 3) I also dont believe TUT has any relevance, As being capable of a 220kg bench, 350kg squat and 340kg DL all raw, I have nevcer once factored that sh1t into any of training I have done and again takle that as a personal insult that you are trying to educate me on it.....


Here yet again you reveal your true motives. Do you see yourself as the ultimate pool of knowledge that cannot be questioned in any way shape or form? While I am sure you're a very knowledgeable and experienced lifter, to assume we "know all" and are ALWAYS right would be rather inappropriate wouldn't you think? Please refrain from abusing the rep/neg system by harassing me with negs due to *simple differences in opinion*.



jw007 said:


> A) why did you truncate my sentance re intensity etc etc with a view to mis-infroming people what i wrote?


As I have mentioned, this was a misunderstanding on my part due to the way you worded a sentence, as I've said already, you've negged me 3 times, this is harassment.



jw007 said:


> B) Why do you repeatedly edit your posts, hours, sometimes days after they have been replied to?


Editing posts IS NOT A OFFENSE let alone something worthy of being negged! You really are desperately looking for excuses. I edit for spelling errors or if I think of a better way to put a point across. The edit feature IS PART OF FORUM FEATURES and is use DOES NOT warrant negs!



jw007 said:


> C) you intially stated that you had limited time, That why only posted on "2 girls threads", when of late it seems you have all time in the world and have been online constantly "trying" toput your point across.


My personal life/time is not your concern and is most certainly not 'neggable' simply because I HAVE taken time out to explain things to the board.



jw007 said:


> D) why if you believe you have so much to offer, you are now just posting on just "1 girls thread" when you are online constantly and there are plenty of Natty guys doing journals that you could be helping out.


I post on other boards, this is not the main board I post to. Not that I'm in any way answerable to you jw.



jw007 said:


> E) why do you feel the need to explain things and change subjets, cutting and pasting articles that have no relevance???


What have I cut/pasted? My words are my own unless I state otherwise and then I state the source. All posts of mine are on topic and relevant and the fact that you seem to fail to understand them does not make them deserving of negs.

Jw by your own admission here you are repeatedly negging me for nothing more than a difference in opinion. THIS IS ABUSE of the neg system AND HARASSMENT.

May I remind you of your own words:



jw007 said:


> *What is IMO is because you read a neg comment and dont agree (which is personal opinion and why we have free speech surely???)*


Does this personal opinion and free speech you speak of only apply to you?

I respectfully request for you jw007 you to stop this childish behavior.


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

guys stop this sh1t have some respect for the person who's journal this is.....


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## d4ead (Nov 3, 2008)

to be fair i think she has safely moved to a new journal, maybe just rename this thread to the jw - natural battle ground. hehe

In-between all the rubbish its actually a very interesting read. The difference between the 2 styles, and the passion they both have believing there's is correct.

as far as the rep stuff goes, despite jw's negs nat1 seems to be doing very well on the reps game and id suggest he's benefited more out of this argument on that front.

My vote is rename, move to general and let them go at each other with sticks for my amusement :0


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## Natural1 (Mar 23, 2009)

Fair enough Pscarb.

JW if you wish to post further on this subject it may be better to start a separate thread. I'm happy to discuss any aspect of training with you but lets do so in a dedicated thread. I have a thread here:

http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/training-articles/59807-little-about-muscle-fibers-recruitment.html#post1065296

^^ jw feel free to contribute or take any issues you may have with me there.


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

JW or Natural1 start up a new thread and link it, I have lots to say..

Let the games begin. :beer:


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