# T3 or Clen (for fat loss)?



## pds999 (Jun 4, 2008)

If the goal is fat loss and you could only go with Clen or T3 (not both), what do people think is the more effective of the two compounds? This is not for me but for my g/f who is using Clen currently (80mcg per day) but has had no loss at all after 2 weeks.

I have advised her to go to the doctor and get her thyroid function tested first (or even cortisol levels) but she wants to give these a go first.


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## Nytol (Jul 16, 2005)

Why not both? There seems to be a synergy with the 2.


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## thestudbeast (Jul 20, 2007)

Not everyone responds to clen but everyone will respond to T3. However if she has an existing thyroid issue then taking T3 is asking for trouble. GP's are happy to do the thyroid test, its free, she needs to ask for free T3, free T4 and TSH to get a good picture of whats going on.


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## hilly (Jan 19, 2008)

If your g/f has had no loss on clen after 2 weeks then i would say they are either fake or her diet is not very good. Well to be honest if she isnt loosing weight naturally then she needs to work on her diet.

T3 and clen make a great combo in my opinion but i loose weight using both durgs together or buy themselves.

I think your g/f needs to look at her diet before taking these supps.


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## Lost Soul (Apr 5, 2008)

pds999 said:


> This is not for me but for my g/f who is using Clen currently (80mcg per day) but has had no loss at all after 2 weeks.


Eating 1/3 to half a mars bar per day over usual intake would knock the effects out. TBH anyone expecting to attribute fat loss specifically to clen are going to be upset and 2 weeks is not long enough to measure

TBH clen and T3 *IMO* should only be used by people competing or by those instructed to by a GP

There is a worrying trend of recreational DNP trainers using DNP sprouting up across the net.

Most females do not eat enough to burn fat, most have self inflicted crap metabolisms through meal skipping, low calorie 'diet bars/snacks/ and a lack of weight training

Carb cycling, weight training, green tea, fish oil and time will get women burning fat. If at that point they are not then the GP calls and thyroid checks can be done

self prescribing clene at 80mcg per day is IMO either the choice of a wise competitor or a poorly educated recreational trainer who has been ill advised

what is she eating in a day? (including times/portions)

what is her weight training split?

what cardio sessions accompany the above?


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## pds999 (Jun 4, 2008)

Thanks for the info above. Her diet (IMO) is poor. While she barely takes in any calories, she doesn't eat the right things frequently enough and she doesn't like fish, meat (very much) or oils. So her metabolism is at rock bottom hence trying clen.

To answer Lost Soul's question her diet looks as follows:

Porridge and Banana for breakfast

Apple mid morning

Soup for lunch

Normal dinner (veg, potatoes, pasta, rice, depends...)

Occasional pudding

2-3 cups of tea a day

That's pretty much it, plus she drinks a fair amount of water. I would imagine her calorie intake per day is around 1,500. She is currently doing 40-50 mins cardio 5-6 days a week at medium/high intensity. She doesn't do weight training currently.


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## Lost Soul (Apr 5, 2008)

How did she wind up on clen?

pudding

no weight training

Cardio becomes far less effective at releasing fat as the body becomes more efficient, hence why people combine the two

TBH mate its little short of misuse, whichever way you sugar coat or justify it


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## pds999 (Jun 4, 2008)

I agree LS. Try telling her that. I still am not sure how she got hold of the stuff, I think it as an online pharmacy. Diet needs attention and the more I tell her what to eat the more she baulks at it and wants a quick fix. Plus we're getting married next Summer which is the carrot at the end of the horizon to get slimmer. Not like she is huge anyway, she is a size 12.


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## Lost Soul (Apr 5, 2008)

there is eating more and there is eating correctly

the way a 'pudding reacts' in terms of body composition is different to 2 meals slightly higher in calories but ones which support muscle growth, fat loss and a more positive body composition and efficiency

so if she were to have

meal 1

grilled chicken

salad

1 oat cake

couple of olives

meal 2

tuna out of brine or water

veg

few seeds and nut

small piece of fruit

the 2 meals may be 600 calories to 500 of the pudding but the influence on body fat and compsotion means its more favourable to do that.

now the reasons she bulks is because she is eating more calories on top of sh1t and her fat stores and being rammed before the good stuff goes in and you and I both know if a man bulks in an excess they will gain fat

weight training burns fat BETTER than cardio

weights and cardio burn more fat than either cardio or weights

cardio alone gives you a sh1t body composition if replicated time and time again over moths

spread her calories out, or provide information so she can do that and feel comfortable

increase fibre, EFA and protein

Satiety will come

some supplements like seratonin regulators will aid mood and suppress cravings and along with green tea she will be in a better position to have long term body composition changes

once women can move away from the scales they will win, but as long as they are a slave to them they will fail and 9 out of 10 times look less impressive than they could

5-6 meals over time

fibre, essential fats and protein

odd cheat

lots of water

weights

cardio

time

support

that should see changes in a physique and as a trade off changes in modd and mindset after initial struggles

next route is a GP to look at her eating habits, not her thyroid

1500 calories for most women would hold their weight


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## pds999 (Jun 4, 2008)

Appreciate that post (despite the initial abuse I gave you a week or so ago). Clearly you do know what you are talking about. Will look into everything you said above and work on her. The clen route is not the way to go.


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## iron head case (Jul 2, 2008)

Interesting post,

I have to agree with lost soul,

nail the diet,try to encourage her to weight train,immediately followed by 30-45mins cv

3-4 times per week.

A lot of people take fat burners thinking they can eat rubbish and still lose,

It doesn't work like that.


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## Lost Soul (Apr 5, 2008)

pds999 said:


> Appreciate that post (despite the initial abuse I gave you a week or so ago). Clearly you do know what you are talking about. Will look into everything you said above and work on her. The clen route is not the way to go.


Thats ok mate, i dont hold any grudges 

This is my school of thought, not definitive but one protocol that works

BUT mindset must allow


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## Tatyana (Jan 29, 2006)

pds999 said:


> Thanks for the info above. Her diet (IMO) is poor. *While she barely takes in any calories*, she doesn't eat the right things frequently enough and she doesn't like fish, meat (very much) or oils. So her metabolism is at rock bottom hence trying clen.
> 
> Are her portion sizes really small? You would be amazed at how quickly calories add up, especially if she is eating things like processed food, or if she is sneaking biscuits and choccie bars at work.
> 
> ...


The beta-2 receptors adapt to clen in about 2 weeks.

The body adapts to the same type of cardio and training within six sessions, so doing the same thing all the time isn't really effective.

Being a cardio queen is really counter-productive to fat loss for most women.

As are taking drugs for fat loss, there is always rebound, especially if there is minimal muscle mass and a sub-optimal diet.

Here is a great article on dieting and metabolic damage by Scott Abel.

The good news is that you can crank your metabolism up again, hey if anorexics can recover, then anyone can.

Metabolic Damage

With the seemingly ever increasing popularity in the last few years of Figure Competitions, there has been a troubling corresponding scenario developing: Metabolic damage. Yes, folks dieting and training can actually make you FAT long term if done improperly and to extremes. I used to see this somewhat in female bodybuilders, but now with the Figure boom it's becoming almost an epidemic. It's time someone pointed this out, and also time to search for solutions.

What is happening is that for several years after a contest prep that was ill-advised, the body responds in ways to prevent the situation from happening again. While it programs itself for this, there is also immediate and resultant metabolic damage from undertaking poor diet and training strategies. The result is that within one to two years post contest the metabolism pretty much shuts down, or shuts off completely.

This sets off a cascade of negative hormonal events, as well as various potential metabolic dysfunctions, one of which I will discuss below. The result is that the individual gets fat or fatter even on controlled calories and carbs. Should they desire to compete again, this usually leads to mis-guided advice of "more cardio" and more calories restriction.

Those of you who have heard me speak before on the Cycle Diet know about the dangers of absolute calories deprivation. (Those who have not can soon download one of my last Seminars at SWIS on the topic). Combined with more exercise this leads to eventual metabolic stress and dysfunction. The result is that within a few years, girls are out of the sport and getting fat and fatter each year even though they stay on consistent diet and training protocols. Recent discussions with colleagues and their own observations and feedback from other colleagues reveal I am not the only one noticing this pattern.

The saddest part of it is that the girls who usually must endure the most to get contest ready are the girls who will suffer more from metabolic damage in the near future. One of the problems has been till now that it goes relatively undiagnosed when taken to a physician. Blood tests reveal " everything to be normal" yet as a practicing professional I know for these clients everything is anything BUT normal.

Staying on a PROPERLY controlled diet, and a training protocol and still gaining weight, fat, bloating, or cellulite is not normal and is indicative of a problem. The contestable issue there is no observable proof. So Drs who know little about training adaptations and effects send these girls away telling them all is normal and nothing is wrong, yet all other evidence points to the contrary.

One of the existing manifestations of this is now illustrated in Wilson's Low Temperature Syndrome. This will not explain all of the Metabolic Damage cases that I see but at least it is a start that this is a real phenomenon.

Now a little science before the explanation: Under normal hormonal conditions the body's endocrine system is controlled by one of the master glands, the hypothalamus. The hypothalamus exerts its effect on many other glands, and of particular concern here is the pituitary gland and the thyroid. The hypothalamus stimulates the pituitary which then stimulates TSH (thyroid stimulating hormone).

TSH makes in the body T4, a form of traveling thyroid which the body then converts to T3, the active form of thyroid which exerts its influence on cells and tissues, to be metabolically active and responsive. Here is one of the problems. (I'm sorry this requires such intimate scientific analysis, but I want girls to understand the dangers of getting "contest ripped" at all costs).

What we now know is many things can screw up or otherwise distort this process even though it would not show up on blood tests. The first thing is just general hypothalamic burnout. Too much stress on this gland for too long and it just does not function as efficiently. Next is what we now call Wilson's Low Temperature Syndrome. You see the whole T4 to T3 conversion can and is affected by many variables; the top ones being stress, diet or fasting, illness, and increased cortisol levels.

Well right away that peaks interest in the people I see with metabolic damage who have both, OVER-stressed their systems physically and usually mentally, while dieting; as well as being on "absolute calories deprivation" for way way too long. This is where it gets interesting. Remember also that cortisol is a stress hormone and will increase and exacerbate these effects of stress.

One of the ways the body converts T4 to T3 is via an enzyme called 5 Deiodinase. This enzyme we now know is inhibited by the above factors of stress, extreme dieting, cortisol and other contributing factors. Under stress and fasting (extreme Figure type diets) the body both, converts less T4 to T3, and converts more T4 to RT3. The problem with this is that the RT3 is an INACTIVE form of thyroid. It exerts too little to no influence on the cells and tissues.

Because the actual activity of T3 takes place in the cells and tissues, there is no proper way to measure it or see if it is actually doing its job. Blood tests only determine that hormones are doing their job by there being such and such an amount in the blood stream. But since most of the activity is in the cells and tissues, not the blood, a blood test would reveal normal levels of TSH, T4, and T3, yet none may be acting appropriately on their target tissues, especially the T3.

Girls can suffer all the symptoms of low thyroid function, but still show normal thyroid on a blood test. This means gaining weight easily even though dieting, fatigue, irritability, etc etc just to name a few effects. And Wilson's Low Body Temperature Syndrome would not be possible to screen for on a blood test.

This is just one way metabolic damage can manifest itself after a disastrous contest approach and too long of a diet, with too much macro and micro nutrient deprivation for far too long. Seems that sometimes those who really do "try the hardest" suffer the most. The reason I keep referring to this being about girls is that is what I see the most, and of those who actually do have Wilson's Syndrome, 80 % are female.

This phenomenon can also develop in other situations, like for instance, ladies who diet for their weddings, for far too long and end up with the same bad metabolic response over time. It's not sometimes just that "eating habits changed" with being married, but metabolic damage ensued as a post-diet, stress response to the wedding itself. (And tons of girls find their weddings mentally and emotionally stressful: just like girls preparing for Figure shows)

Ok, this is just one such sample of metabolic damage.

Another factor I have little proof of right now but that I am sure exists is some kind of permanent or resultant damage to the aldosterone hormone and it's feedback mechanisms, given that aldosterone is also a stress response hormone in general.

The good thing about Wilson' Syndrome is that it "may" be reversible. If you are concerned you may have metabolic damage do a search and check out the symptoms for Wilson's Syndrome and see if you fit the bill. This is NOT the only measure of how metabolisms get damaged in this over-train, over-diet, yo yo syndrome of the Fitness Industry.

Unfortunately the Fitness Industry and Figure events are now leading down the road to the Fatness Industry! I have seen and have several clients who formerly got bad advice and prepared for their contests with a "win at all costs" mentality that is now hurting them long term.

Ladies, (and gentlemen), you need to start choosing your coaches and trainers more wisely. Going to extremes of 2-3 hours cardio per day, plus training, plus over-dieting, may get you to the Winner's Circle at level 1 or 2, but at what costs to you?????

One of the reasons I got into the whole Metabolic Power/ Metabolic Endurance Training was to try to find ways around these "other" potentially damaging pre- contest protocols. And the "Cycle Diet" also explains how to prevent the effects of Absolute Calories Deprivation, from destroying your metabolism long term.

I hope anyone reading this is paying close attention and will forward this to any other girls they know who are "die'ting for a show and may be doing damage to themselves. If your nails are brittle, and hair is falling out, etc, these are warning signs. Please abide them.

I feel sorry when I see a cattle call of women at Figure events, with some 80 girls in them. Some are born to do it, and others struggled like hell to get up there, and unknowingly (and usually by actually being coached!) have set themselves up a one way ticket to Fatsville, long term. They just don't know it yet.

The reason I explained about Wilson's Syndrome is because it's one way at least that we know of that is treatable and a way back to normal metabolic function and normal fat loss, with normal dieting.

More on women's issues soon !!!! Please pass this around to anyone you know may be damaging themselves, by competing. As usual i welcome comments on my Forums section at scottabel.com

posted by Scott Abel at 2:37 PM


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## Tatyana (Jan 29, 2006)

Lost Soul said:


> there is eating more and there is eating correctly
> 
> the way a 'pudding reacts' in terms of body composition is different to 2 meals slightly higher in calories but ones which support muscle growth, fat loss and a more positive body composition and efficiency
> 
> ...


LOLOLOLOLOLOL, that is my BMR.

I maintain at around 2200-2500 kcals.

That is the bonus of weight training and having muscle.


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## Lost Soul (Apr 5, 2008)

Tatyana said:


> LOLOLOLOLOLOL, that is my BMR.
> 
> I maintain at around 2200-2500 kcals.
> 
> That is the bonus of weight training and having muscle.


indeed, man (or in this case manette) manifests his (or in this case her) own destiny

seen RMRs down at 600 before after chronic dieting and excessive cardio :confused1:


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## pds999 (Jun 4, 2008)

Lost Soul said:


> Thats ok mate, i dont hold any grudges
> 
> This is my school of thought, not definitive but one protocol that works
> 
> BUT mindset must allow


Thanks. You actually really remind me of a guy called Bryan who used to post a lot on hairloss forums (back when I was younger, naive and vain I went on them to learn about how to stop any hairloss which has really worked). Anyway this guy really knew his stuff, but was very abrasive to start with when I first started posting and really rubbed me up the wrong way and I got very cross. But I learned to respect him in the end when I realised he knew a hell of a lot more than me.

So hope the same happens again. Appreciate you taking the time to answer my questions when I was so rude before. Won't happen again. :beer:


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## pds999 (Jun 4, 2008)

Tatyana, thanks for your post about Wilson's - will look into that. I was starting to think my g/f was a biological freak of nature given how much she eats and can't lose weight. But it seems she is simply eating wrongly and not being smart. Going to try and sort that.


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## thestudbeast (Jul 20, 2007)

Good luck mate, tried this one and despite a female friend being plain miserable about her weight will she weight train - hell no, follow a non starvation diet - hell no.

Now clen in my opinion is a horrible drug but really strong, I can eat like a pig on it and after only one application of 100mcg have lost 3lbs but my metabolism fires on all cylinders anyway.

Lost Soul the effects vary from person to person, some one who already has high T3 levels will be able to pig out and still drop weight at an alarming rate. The stuff is probably fake as the sides off clen are horrible and she would be complaining about them. The sides can be reduced masively by using it transdermaly.

I would suggest getting her to do body weight exercises and get some resistance bands if she refuses to do the sensible thing and join the gym.


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## Tatyana (Jan 29, 2006)

pds999 said:


> Tatyana, thanks for your post about Wilson's - will look into that. I was starting to think my g/f was a biological freak of nature given how much she eats and can't lose weight. But it seems she is simply eating wrongly and not being smart. Going to try and sort that.


Wilson's is highly controversial, and the Thyroid association of America says it does not exist.

She could have a thyroid function test, and there are ways to detect a sub clinical thyroid function from the test.

She has probably slowed her metabolism down if she is eating as little as you say.

The body adapts to whatever you feed it, it protects us against starvation, and it will hold onto fat as fat=survival.

Ideally, she should keep a food diary and actually calculate what she is eating, websites like fitday and calorie king make it really easy now, so she actually KNOWS what she is eating.

If it is far too few calories (basic calculation for maintainance calories for women is weight in lbs x 14), then she should add 10-15% more each day for a few weeks, etc, until she is back on a normal amount of calories.

If she continues eating this way, she is basically condemning herself to a life of starvation diets, no muscle mass, bone wasting (osteoporosis is the number one killer of women, nasty disease).

I would think this is the issue, that or she is eating all sorts of goodies when she is not around you.

http://www.thyroid.org/professional...16_wilsons.html

ATA Public Health Statement

American Thyroid Association Statement on "Wilson's Syndrome"

Updated May 24, 2005

The American Thyroid Association (ATA) has developed the following response to requests from patients and physicians for information about "Wilson's syndrome". The ATA Public Health Committee and Council have reviewed the material presented on the "Wilson's syndrome" website, considered relevant studies from the medical literature, and offer the following advice.

Summary

"Wilson's syndrome" refers to the presence of common and nonspecific symptoms, relatively low body temperature, and normal levels of thyroid hormones in blood. Dr. E. Denis Wilson, who named the syndrome after himself, contends that it represents a form of thyroid hormone deficiency responsive to treatment with a special preparation of triiodothyronine (T3).

The ATA's thorough review of the biomedical literature has found no scientific evidence supporting the existence of "Wilson's syndrome." The ATA also has specific concerns about the following issues.

First, the proposed basis for this syndrome is inconsistent with well-known and widely-accepted facts about thyroid hormone production, metabolism, and action. T3 is one of the two natural thyroid hormones. Normally, it is mainly produced in target tissues outside of the thyroid gland from metabolism of thyroxine (T4). This production of T3 from T4 occurs in a highly regulated manner. This is one reason that T3 is not currently recommended for thyroid hormone treatment in most patients with thyroid hormone deficiency. T4 therapy allows T3 to be produced, as it is naturally, by the regulated metabolism of the administered T4 medication to T3.

Second, the diagnostic criteria for "Wilson's syndrome"--nonspecific symptoms and body temperature measurement--are imprecise.

Third, there is no scientific evidence that T3 therapy is better than a placebo would be for management of nonspecific symptoms, such as those that have been described as part of "Wilson's syndrome," in individuals with and normal thyroid hormone concentrations.

Fourth, T3 therapy results in wide fluctuations in T3 concentrations in blood and body tissues. This produces symptoms and cardiovascular complications in some patients, and is potentially dangerous.

Complete Review

The "Wilson's syndrome" website lists 37 symptoms as well as "others" that can occur as part of the condition. All of these symptoms do cause suffering, distress, and functional disability in millions of people. Some of these symptoms can, in fact, be due to true hypothyroidism. In hypothyroid patients, they are typically responsive to thyroid hormone therapy. Other problems, such as asthma, are not associated with thyroid hormone deficiency. Many of these symptoms are present from time to time in virtually everyone. In addition to hypothyroidism, they may be due to a variety of illnesses or life circumstances. In other words, they are nonspecific.

The "Wilson's syndrome" website states that Dr. Wilson named this concept after himself "because it had not been previously described." In fact, for more than a century, the same set of symptoms has been given different names and attributed to a variety of causes by others, including the syndromes of neurasthenia, chronic fatigue, fibromyalgia, multiple chemical sensitivity, chronic Ebstein Barr disease, and chronic candidiasis.

The frequency of complaints attributed to "Wilson's syndrome" has been recently reviewed (Barsky AJ, Borus JF. Functional somatic syndromes. Ann Intern Med 1999;130:910-21) At any time, more than 20% of adults report significant fatigue and 30% have current musculoskeletal symptoms. Furthermore, the typical adult has one of the symptoms every 4 to 6 days, and more than 80% of the general population has one of these symptoms during any 2 to 4 week period.

The advocates of "Wilson's syndrome" view the cause, diagnostic evaluation, and treatment of these symptoms very narrowly. Their viewpoint does not acknowledge that when these symptoms are persistent, they may be due to a number of different subacute and chronic medical conditions, psychological or social stress, or mood disorders, including depression and anxiety. Some of these symptoms may also simply be a part of life. "Wilson's syndrome" attributes them all to a biochemical theory, which is unsupported by laboratory or clinical research. It does not consider the impact of other potential illnesses and psychosocial factors on how we feel. In doing so, attributing one or more of these symptoms to "Wilson's syndrome" may delay recognition of treatable medical illnesses and potentially addressable life stresses.

The ATA has the following specific concerns about "Wilson's syndrome" and its recommended treatment.

The diagnosis of "Wilson's syndrome" is based on an incorrect definition of normal body temperature: that it is 98.6ºF. (Mackowiak, et al. JAMA 1992;268:1578-1580) measured oral temperature in 148 healthy persons. Average temperature varied throughout the day. At 8 AM, the average temperature was 97.6ºF with more than 50% of all the measurements less than 98.6ºF, and many less than 98.0ºF. This study concluded that "thirty-seven degrees centigrade (98.6ºF) should be abandoned as a concept relevant to clinical thermometry."

The prescription of T3 for "Wilson's syndrome" is inconsistent with normal physiology and represents a potential hazard. There is no question that T3 is an active, effective thyroid hormone. However, in most vital organs, much of the T3 is produced by removal of an iodine atom from T4 delivered by the blood to sites of thyroid hormone action. The extent of T4-to-T3 conversion varies from one organ to the other, but in some organs, like the brain and pituitary, this process provides most of the T3. Treatment with T3 produces an unnaturally large amount of T3 in some organs. This may be inappropriate, especially in times of illness or nutritional deficiency. Long-term T3 treatment may cause harm. Excessive T3 treatment can affect the heart and skeleton. These effects can be serious and even life-threatening.

The sole clinical evidence supporting T3 therapy offered by the "Wilson's syndrome" website is in the form of testimonials from people who feel better after taking T3. Evidence of this kind, based on anecdotal reports of an unblinded intervention is potentially erroneous. Such reports fail to take into account two well established facts. First, many people who suffer these symptoms, even for months, get better without any treatment. Second, as many as one-third of people with nonspecific symptoms have a so-called placebo response, i.e., they get better when they are given any treatment, even an inactive capsule or sugar pill. The appropriate way to assess a new treatment is to perform a clinical trial in which patients are randomly assigned to receive either the test drug or placebo. Furthermore, the response to treatment should be assessed in a double blind manner, keeping track of what gets better, what does not change, and what gets worse, with neither the patient nor the doctor knowing which treatment the patient is taking. The ATA has been unable to find any such studies of any treatment, including T3, for "Wilson's syndrome." The Wilson syndrome website reports only success stories. Responsible medical research into a new treatment keeps track of, and reports, not only successes, but also success rates, and how often there are inconclusive responses, failures, and side effects.

The term Wilson's syndrome should not be confused with Wilson's Disease. Wilson's Disease is a well established and carefully studied rare metabolic disorder caused by excess accumulation of copper in the body.

Conclusion

The American Thyroid Association has found no scientific evidence supporting the existence of "Wilson's syndrome." The theory proposed to explain this condition is at odds with established facts about thyroid hormone. Diagnostic criteria for "Wilson's syndrome" are imprecise and could lead to misdiagnosis of many other conditions. The T3 therapy advocated for "Wilson's syndrome" has never been evaluated objectively in a properly designed scientific study. Furthermore, administration of T3 can produce abnormally high concentrations of T3 in the blood, subjecting patients to new symptoms and potentially harmful effects on the heart and bones.

The ATA supports efforts to learn more about the causes of somatic symptoms that affect many individuals, to test rigorously the idea that some as yet unidentified abnormality in thyroid hormone action might account for even a small subset of these symptoms, and to pursue properly designed clinical trials to assess the effectiveness of lifestyle, dietary, and pharmacological treatments for these common ailments. However, unsupported claims, such as those made for "Wilson's syndrome," do nothing to further these aims.

© 2006 American Thyroid Association. All rights reserved.


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## Tatyana (Jan 29, 2006)

And also get her to lay off the cardio for awhile and do some weight training.

I don't do cardio anymore, unless I am comp prepping and I try not to do loads unless I am far behind in my prep.

By Keith Albert, one of Poliquin's guys..

Six reasons why aerobic work is counterproductive

Getting Maximum Results

As a Strength Coach and a Personal Trainer for 15 years, I've had a chance to see many fitness enthusiasts workout at many gyms in my local area and throughout the country. At any given gym or fitness center, the one thing that I notice is how you see the same people doing the same workouts month after month, year after year. The amazing thing is that these people continue to look the same or they are actually looking worse aesthetically. This is especially true with the constant performance of continuous aerobic work.

What's sad about this is that they feel like they are doing everything necessary to get the result they are looking for. They are resigned to the fact that this is how it's going to be and there isn't anything that can be done to correct their deficiencies. If you were to ask them what results they would like to get out of their workout, the number 1 answer is "losing weight or getting thinner."

When I am asked what it takes to look "fitter," the first question I ask is: "How long have you been doing your current training program?"

The usual answer I receive is "somewhere between 6 and 12 months." The typical program they follow is "30 - 60 minutes of continuous aerobic work 3 to 5 times per week."

Our training tells us that this is not a good approach to take for the client seeking improving results over time. World renowned strength guru Charles Poliquin has identified 6 reasons why aerobic training is counterproductive to fat loss:

(1) Continuous aerobic work plateaus after 8 weeks of training so anything more is counterproductive.

This is quite an "eye opener" for most people who immediately recognize that they may have been wasting their time for such an extended period. To quote Charles, "using this principle in preparation for the 92 Olympics, the Canadian Alpine Ski team actually surpassed the Cross-country team on aerobic scores as measured by third party University labs." Who wouldn't want to perform as well as the Canadian Alpine ski team?

(2) Aerobic training worsens power locally and systemically - in other words, it can make you slower.

If you are an athlete or a "weekend warrior" who likes to participate in athletic events or team sports that require speed and jumping ability, this is the last thing you want from a cardiovascular training program. Coach Poliquin adds that "the more lower body aerobic work you do, the more your vertical jump worsens. The more upper body aerobic work you do, the more your medicine ball throws worsen."

(3) Aerobic training increases oxidative stress which can accelerate aging.

According to Endocrinologist Dr. Diana Schwarzbein (author of The Schwarzbein Principle II ,) "oxidation" is a process that forms free radicals in the body. Normally the body can neutralize free radicals with substances known as antioxidants. It is only when there is an excessive build-up of free radicals that the body cannot neutralize all of the free radicals. This leads to changes to your metabolism which can accelerate aging.

(4) Aerobic training increases adrenal stress which can make you fatter and produce other undesirable health consequences

According to Dr. James Wilson (author of Adrenal Fatigue - The 21st. Century Stress Syndrome,) "normally functioning adrenal glands secrete minute, yet precise and balanced, amounts of steroid hormones". When one does too much continuous aerobic exercise, the adrenal glands are stressed in a way that can upset this delicate balance which could lead to adrenal fatigue. Adrenal fatigue is associated with such symptoms as: tiredness, fearfulness, allergies, frequent influenza, arthritis, anxiety, depression, reduced memory, and difficulties in concentrating, insomnia, feeling worn-out, and most importantly- with respect to this article - the inability to lose weight after extensive efforts."

(5) Aerobic training increases body fat in stressed individuals by contributing additional stress.

If you are already going through a lot of stress in your life then adding more "stress" by doing too much continuous aerobic work will actually add more body fat thus making it hard to reach a weight-loss/body fat goal.

(6) Aerobic training worsens testosterone/cortisol ratio which impedes your ability to add fat burning lean muscle.

When the testosterone/cortisol ratio is lowered your ability to add lean muscle tissue, which helps to increase caloric expenditure, is again hampered making weight loss much more difficult. Coach Poliquin notes that "continuous aerobic work is basically exercise induced castration!"


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## Tatyana (Jan 29, 2006)

Lost Soul said:


> indeed, man (or in this case manette) manifests his (or in this case her) own destiny
> 
> seen RMRs down at 600 before after chronic dieting and excessive cardio :confused1:


How does one 'see' a RMR of 600 kcal/day?

Enquiring geeky minds want to know.


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## pds999 (Jun 4, 2008)

thestudbeast said:


> Good luck mate, tried this one and despite a female friend being plain miserable about her weight will she weight train - hell no, follow a non starvation diet - hell no.
> 
> Now clen in my opinion is a horrible drug but really strong, I can eat like a pig on it and after only one application of 100mcg have lost 3lbs but my metabolism fires on all cylinders anyway.
> 
> ...


Definitely not fake. Her body temp is up, heart rate more forceful and resting heart rate up. Plus she gets shakes within an hour of taking which then wear off after a few hours. Worst thing is the sweating during exercise as she gets very hot. Still, even after 2 weeks on 80mcg per day she has lost virtually no weight.

Thanks for your advice though, and to all those above as well. Has given me much to think about.


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## Lost Soul (Apr 5, 2008)

thestudbeast said:


> Good luck mate, tried this one and despite a female friend being plain miserable about her weight will she weight train - hell no, follow a non starvation diet - hell no.
> 
> Now clen in my opinion is a horrible drug but really strong, I can eat like a pig on it and after only one application of 100mcg have lost 3lbs but my metabolism fires on all cylinders anyway.
> 
> ...


After using clen plenty of times and being naturally lean I hav, along with many others not seen that. Clen sides are fine for me too and i actually felt sleepy.

Now thats the sides I can see, not the one i cannot see.

tatyana

I have Pmed you


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## MrGum (May 2, 2008)

Tatyana - been reading your posts with interest.

The one about the drawbacks of aerobic training was particularly relevant to me. I'm greedy and I want the best of both worlds. I do quite a lot of running and have recently taken up kickboxing. But I am also training for strength. I realise that what I am doing is sort of counterproductive, but I love cardio and weights equally!!

Sorry to be a pest, but would you mind having a look at my journal and telling me if I am being really stupid??

mark


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## thestudbeast (Jul 20, 2007)

Lost Soul said:


> After using clen plenty of times and being naturally lean I hav, along with many others not seen that. Clen sides are fine for me too and i actually felt sleepy.
> 
> Now thats the sides I can see, not the one i cannot see.
> 
> ...


Ye I'm a genetic freak designed to be skinny :laugh:


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