# Working out while fasting (Ramadan)… Help?



## muscle123 (Jun 1, 2016)

Hello everybody

In a few days, I'm going to be fasting.

While fasting from dawn until sunset, Muslims refrain from consuming food and drinking liquids, which is why I'm afraid of loosing muscle and weight.

I'm 16 years old btw.

But, so I was thinking if I eat a lot at night, like as much as a grown ass man eat a day. (at 4 am, because my fasting starts at 4:45 am and ends at 10 pm)

So, it looks kinda like this:

4 am: Night meal, eating 2000 carlories - 50g protein - 400 g carbs (Don't worry, it's healthy food)

9 pm: Working out (All pro beginner routine) (around 1 hour long)

10 pm: I can finally eat (Happy face)&#8230; This is about the time I finished my workout, so i'm going to be drinking my protein shake and BCAA.

Does this sound good? Is working out without eating in a long time bad? Is it bad to not drinking water while working out? I'm thinking about drinking BCAA after my workout (Before I drink my protein shake), is it bad or good?

Thanks in advance


----------



## ILLBehaviour (Dec 20, 2014)

muscle123 said:


> Hello everybody
> 
> In a few days, I'm going to be fasting.
> 
> ...


 No.


----------



## Alvin (May 4, 2008)

I Mong out if I miss breakfast, you must have zero energy going without food all day.


----------



## Kazza61 (Jun 14, 2008)

I fast 2 days a week and regularly train the day after fasting with zero problems. Can easily train for 90 minutes upon rising. In fact my waistline is well down and poundages well up. And whilst Phil Heath doesn't need to worry about me, I look and feel the best I have for years.


----------



## Quackerz (Dec 19, 2015)

muscle123 said:


> Hello everybody
> 
> In a few days, I'm going to be fasting.
> 
> ...


 ''He who has in his heart the weight of of an atom in pride shall not be granted access to paradise.''

''Pride is to disdain the truth and contempt people.''


----------



## andyboro (Oct 1, 2006)

I train fasted all of the time and actually prefer it now. No fluids would be my issue while working up a sweat


----------



## Jakemaguire (Feb 17, 2016)

great im not gonna be able to get a taxi work in the week


----------



## DappaDonDave (Dec 2, 2013)

You won't die if you eat during daylight hours. Lighten up.


----------



## Heavyassweights (Jan 18, 2014)

muscle123 said:


> Hello everybody
> 
> In a few days, I'm going to be fasting.
> 
> ...


 what happens if you break the fast mate?


----------



## DappaDonDave (Dec 2, 2013)

Heavyassweights said:


> what happens if you break the fast mate?


 @GCMAX


----------



## DappaDonDave (Dec 2, 2013)

JoePears182 said:


> You are forsaking something that is fard (compulsory) in the deen and thus commiting major sin. If he was in ISIS or Saudi territory I am pretty sure they deem it shirk? Not sure on that.


 He's in the uk, and we deem it as silly.


----------



## DappaDonDave (Dec 2, 2013)

JoePears182 said:


> Not in the Muslim community they don't. The muslim community don't seem too keen on assimilating. Hence starving themselves on the word of a prophet who loved to behead women and jews and polytheists.


 Move then. I didn't like the community I grew up in, so when I got a job, I moved.


----------



## zak007 (Nov 12, 2011)

JoePears182 said:


> Not in the Muslim community they don't. The muslim community don't seem too keen on assimilating. Hence starving themselves on the word of a prophet who loved to behead women and jews and polytheists.


 here we go again. Just don't give it up do you? You can't provide a single shred of evidence to back up your points.

Do you even lift? All your posts have a theme to them & your the reason many people leave these forums.

@Pscarb can we ban this non-contributory member whose dragging this forum down?


----------



## zak007 (Nov 12, 2011)

JoePears182 said:


> Why do you care what people say about your religion? I don't care if you think atheism if stupid. I joined 2 days ago, who exactly has left since then?


 It's a bodybuilding forum, not a forum to entice hatred as is the effect of your continous muslim bashing.

No-one has left now but people have done before. You do not contribute and serve only to raise tensions. What religion do you follow?


----------



## UK2USA (Jan 30, 2016)

As soon as I read the thread title I knew it wouldn't be good. The kid is 16 years old, believes in his faith and is a bodybuilding enthusiast, but because his faith is Islam he will get little help, masses of insults and ridicule from all of the experts on here. It is truly sad when people can't focus on the fasting and exercise question and instead have to hijack the thread for their own bias and ignorance. Believe what you believe, allow others the same freedom, and feel free to ignore the thread completely and not contribute.

OP feel free to IM me and I will offer you my honest views on how to handle Ramadan and working out, Insha'Allah.


----------



## zak007 (Nov 12, 2011)

JoePears182 said:


> Do I lift? I lift to the same extent you follow the Deen. You do know Islam prohibits PED's right?


 You seriously going to start with these low petty digs?


----------



## zak007 (Nov 12, 2011)

JoePears182 said:


> So when I criticise Islam that is hatred? Based on what? other than the fact you simply won't have your beliefs questioned? Are yu implying muslims specifically don't have an issue with assimilation? Because the entire western world disagrees.


 Based on your previous thread that muslims had comitted X amount of atrocities based on no factual research.

I am open to discussion and freely do via PM as I have done with previous members

Feel free to PM me and i'll be happy to provide factual evidence rather than your mere petty opinions


----------



## zak007 (Nov 12, 2011)

JoePears182 said:


> You are the one who literally can't take any views critical to islam. That kind of extremist attitude is the problem.


 See my above post. Your very immature. Your probbably a 16 year old fat kid who has nothing better to do than troll a bodybuilding forum


----------



## zak007 (Nov 12, 2011)

JoePears182 said:


> None, I like anyone with any understanding of science can't follow any religion, especially the Abrahamic faiths. If you truly do beleive in Islam, how would you respond to people pointing out the false claims in a supposedly perfect and miraculous Qur'an


----------



## zak007 (Nov 12, 2011)

JoePears182 said:


> None, I like anyone with any understanding of science can't follow any religion, especially the Abrahamic faiths. If you truly do beleive in Islam, how would you respond to people pointing out the false claims in a supposedly perfect and miraculous Qur'an ?


 Explain all these atrocities of christians since you pointed out muslims ones previously.

Listed are only events that solely occurred on command of church authorities or were committed in the name of Christianity. (List incomplete)

*
Ancient Pagans
*




As soon as Christianity was legal (315), more and more pagan temples were destroyed by Christian mob. Pagan priests were killed.



Between 315 and 6th century thousands of pagan believers were slain.



Examples of destroyed Temples: the Sanctuary of Aesculap in Aegaea, the Temple of Aphrodite in Golgatha, Aphaka in Lebanon, the Heliopolis.



Christian priests such as Mark of Arethusa or Cyrill of Heliopolis were famous as "temple destroyer." [DA468]



Pagan services became punishable by death in 356. [DA468]



Christian Emperor Theodosius (408-450) even had children executed, because they had been playing with remains of pagan statues. [DA469]
According to Christian chroniclers he "followed meticulously all Christian teachings..."



In 6th century pagans were declared void of all rights.



In the early fourth century the philosopher Sopatros was executed on demand of Christian authorities. [DA466]



The world famous female philosopher Hypatia of Alexandria was torn to pieces with glass fragments by a hysterical Christian mob led by a Christian minister named Peter, in a church, in 415.
[DO19-25]


*
Mission
*




Emperor Karl (Charlemagne) in 782 had 4500 Saxons, unwilling to convert to Christianity, beheaded. [DO30]



Peasants of Steding (Germany) unwilling to pay suffocating church taxes: between 5,000 and 11,000 men, women and children slain 5/27/1234 near Altenesch/Germany. [WW223]



Battle of Belgrad 1456: 80,000 Turks slaughtered. [DO235]



15th century Poland: 1019 churches and 17987 villages plundered by Knights of the Order. Victims unknown. [DO30]



16th and 17th century Ireland. English troops "pacified and civilized" Ireland, where only Gaelic "wild Irish", "unreasonable beasts lived without any knowledge of God or good manners, in common of their goods, cattle, women, children and every other thing." One of the more successful soldiers, a certain Humphrey Gilbert, half-brother of Sir Walter Raleigh, ordered that "the heddes of all those (of what sort soever thei were) which were killed in the daie, should be cutte off from their bodies... and should bee laied on the ground by eche side of the waie", which effort to civilize the Irish indeed caused "greate terrour to the people when thei sawe the heddes of their dedde fathers, brothers, children, kinsfolke, and freinds on the grounde".
Tens of thousands of Gaelic Irish fell victim to the carnage. [SH99, 225]


*
Crusades (1095-1291)
*




First Crusade: 1095 on command of pope Urban II. [WW11-41]



Semlin/Hungary 6/24/96 thousands slain. Wieselburg/Hungary 6/12/96 thousands. [WW23]



9/9/96-9/26/96 Nikaia, Xerigordon (then turkish), thousands respectively. [WW25-27]



Until Jan 1098 a total of 40 capital cities and 200 castles conquered (number of slain unknown) [WW30]



after 6/3/98 Antiochia (then turkish) conquered, between 10,000 and 60,000 slain. 6/28/98 100,000 Turks (incl. women & children) killed. [WW32-35]
Here the Christians "did no other harm to the women found in [the enemy's] tents-save that they ran their lances through their bellies," according to Christian chronicler Fulcher of Chartres. [EC60]



Marra (Maraat an-numan) 12/11/98 thousands killed. Because of the subsequent famine "the already stinking corpses of the enemies were eaten by the Christians" said chronicler Albert Aquensis. [WW36]



Jerusalem conquered 7/15/1099 more than 60,000 victims (jewish, muslim, men, women, children). [WW37-40]
(In the words of one witness: "there [in front of Solomon's temple] was such a carnage that our people were wading ankle-deep in the blood of our foes", and after that "happily and crying for joy our people marched to our Saviour's tomb, to honour it and to pay off our debt of gratitude")



The Archbishop of Tyre, eye-witness, wrote: "It was impossible to look upon the vast numbers of the slain without horror; everywhere lay fragments of human bodies, and the very ground was covered with the blood of the slain. It was not alone the spectacle of headless bodies and mutilated limbs strewn in all directions that roused the horror of all who looked upon them. Still more dreadful was it to gaze upon the victors themselves, dripping with blood from head to foot, an ominous sight which brought terror to all who met them. It is reported that within the Temple enclosure alone about ten thousand infidels perished." [TG79]



Christian chronicler Eckehard of Aura noted that "even the following summer in all of palestine the air was polluted by the stench of decomposition". One million victims of the first crusade alone. [WW41]



Battle of Askalon, 8/12/1099. 200,000 heathens slaughtered "in the name of Our Lord Jesus Christ". [WW45]



Fourth crusade: 4/12/1204 Constantinople sacked, number of victims unknown, numerous thousands, many of them Christian. [WW141-148]



Rest of Crusades in less detail: until the fall of Akkon 1291 probably 20 million victims (in the Holy land and Arab/Turkish areas alone). [WW224]

*Note:* All figures according to contemporary (Christian) chroniclers.


*
Heretics
*




Already in 385 C.E. the first Christians, the Spanish Priscillianus and six followers, were beheaded for heresy in Trier/Germany [DO26]



Manichaean heresy: a crypto-Christian sect decent enough to practice birth control (and thus not as irresponsible as faithful Catholics) was exterminated in huge campaigns all over the Roman empire between 372 C.E. and 444 C.E. Numerous thousands of victims. [NC]



Albigensians: the first Crusade intended to slay other Christians. [DO29]
The Albigensians...viewed themselves as good Christians, but would not accept roman Catholic rule, and taxes, and prohibition of birth control. [NC]
Begin of violence: on command of pope Innocent III (greatest single pre-nazi mass murderer) in 1209. Bezirs (today France) 7/22/1209 destroyed, _all_ the inhabitants were slaughtered. Victims (including Catholics refusing to turn over their heretic neighbours and friends) 20,000-70,000. [WW179-181]



Carcassonne 8/15/1209, thousands slain. Other cities followed. [WW181]



subsequent 20 years of war until nearly all Cathars (probably half the population of the Languedoc, today southern France) were exterminated. [WW183]



After the war ended (1229) the Inquisition was founded 1232 to search and destroy surviving/hiding heretics. Last Cathars burned at the stake 1324. [WW183]



Estimated one million victims (cathar heresy alone), [WW183]



Other heresies: Waldensians, Paulikians, Runcarians, Josephites, and many others. Most of these sects exterminated, (I believe some Waldensians live today, yet they had to endure 600 years of persecution) I estimate at least hundred thousand victims (including the Spanish inquisition but excluding victims in the New World).



Spanish Inquisitor Torquemada alone allegedly responsible for 10,220 burnings. [DO28]



John Huss, a critic of papal infallibility and indulgences, was burned at the stake in 1415. [LI475-522]



University professor B.Hubmaier burned at the stake 1538 in Vienna. [DO59]



Giordano Bruno, Dominican monk, after having been incarcerated for seven years, was burned at the stake for heresy on the Campo dei Fiori (Rome) on 2/17/1600.


*
Witches
*




from the beginning of Christianity to 1484 probably more than several thousand.



in the era of witch hunting (1484-1750) according to modern scholars several hundred thousand (about 80% female) burned at the stake or hanged. [WV]



incomplete list of documented cases:
The Burning of Witches - A Chronicle of the Burning Times


*
Religious Wars
*




15th century: Crusades against Hussites, thousands slain. [DO30]



1538 pope Paul III declared Crusade against apostate England and all English as slaves of Church (fortunately had not power to go into action). [DO31]



1568 Spanish Inquisition Tribunal ordered extermination of 3 million rebels in (then Spanish) Netherlands. Thousands were actually slain. [DO31]



1572 In France about 20,000 Huguenots were killed on command of pope Pius V. Until 17th century 200,000 flee. [DO31]



17th century: Catholics slay Gaspard de Coligny, a Protestant leader. After murdering him, the Catholic mob mutilated his body, "cutting off his head, his hands, and his genitals... and then dumped him into the river [...but] then, deciding that it was not worthy of being food for the fish, they hauled it out again [... and] dragged what was left ... to the gallows of Montfaulcon, 'to be meat and carrion for maggots and crows'." [SH191]



17th century: Catholics sack the city of Magdeburg/Germany: roughly 30,000 Protestants were slain. "In a single church fifty women were found beheaded," reported poet Friedrich Schiller, "and infants still sucking the breasts of their lifeless mothers." [SH191]



17th century 30 years' war (Catholic vs. Protestant): at least 40% of population decimated, mostly in Germany. [DO31-32]


*
Jews
*




Already in the 4th and 5th centuries synagogues were burned by Christians. Number of Jews slain unknown.



In the middle of the fourth century the first synagogue was destroyed on command of bishop Innocentius of Dertona in Northern Italy. The first synagogue known to have been burned down was near the river Euphrat, on command of the bishop of Kallinikon in the year 388. [DA450]



17. Council of Toledo 694: Jews were enslaved, their property confiscated, and their children forcibly baptized. [DA454]



The Bishop of Limoges (France) in 1010 had the cities' Jews, who would not convert to Christianity, expelled or killed. [DA453]



First Crusade: Thousands of Jews slaughtered 1096, maybe 12.000 total. Places: Worms 5/18/1096, Mainz 5/27/1096 (1100 persons), Cologne, Neuss, Altenahr, Wevelinghoven, Xanten, Moers, Dortmund, Kerpen, Trier, Metz, Regensburg, Prag and others (All locations Germany except Metz/France, Prag/Czech) [EJ]



Second Crusade: 1147. Several hundred Jews were slain in Ham, Sully, Carentan, and Rameru (all locations in France). [WW57]



Third Crusade: English Jewish communities sacked 1189/90. [DO40]



Fulda/Germany 1235: 34 Jewish men and women slain. [DO41]



1257, 1267: Jewish communities of London, Canterbury, Northampton, Lincoln, Cambridge, and others exterminated. [DO41]



1290 in Bohemian (Poland) allegedly 10,000 Jews killed. [DO41]



1337 Starting in Deggendorf/Germany a Jew-killing craze reaches 51 towns in Bavaria, Austria, Poland. [DO41]



1348 All Jews of Basel/Switzerland and Strasbourg/France (two thousand) burned. [DO41]



1349 In more than 350 towns in Germany all Jews murdered, mostly burned alive (in this one year more Jews were killed than Christians in 200 years of ancient Roman persecution of Christians). [DO42]



1389 In Prag 3,000 Jews were slaughtered. [DO42]



1391 Seville's Jews killed (Archbishop Martinez leading). 4,000 were slain, 25,000 sold as slaves. [DA454] Their identification was made easy by the brightly colored "badges of shame" that all jews above the age of ten had been forced to wear.



1492: In the year Columbus set sail to conquer a New World, more than 150,000 Jews were expelled from Spain, many died on their way: 6/30/1492. [MM470-476]



1648 Chmielnitzki massacres: In Poland about 200,000 Jews were slain. [DO43]




> (I feel sick ...) this goes on and on, century after century, right into the kilns of Auschwitz.


*
Native Peoples
*




Beginning with Columbus (a former slave trader and would-be Holy Crusader) the conquest of the New World began, as usual understood as a means to propagate Christianity.



Within hours of landfall on the first inhabited island he encountered in the Caribbean, Columbus seized and carried off six native people who, he said, "ought to be good servants ... [and] would easily be made Christians, because it seemed to me that they belonged to no religion." [SH200]
While Columbus described the Indians as "idolators" and "slaves, as many as [the Crown] shall order," his pal Michele de Cuneo, Italian nobleman, referred to the natives as "beasts" because "they eat when they are hungry," and made love "openly whenever they feel like it." [SH204-205]



On every island he set foot on, Columbus planted a cross, "making the declarations that are required" - the _requerimiento_ - to claim the ownership for his Catholic patrons in Spain. And "nobody objected." If the Indians refused or delayed their acceptance (or understanding), the _requerimiento_ continued:




> > I certify to you that, with the help of God, we shall powerfully enter in your country and shall make war against you ... and shall subject you to the yoke and obedience of the Church ... and shall do you all mischief that we can, as to vassals who do not obey and refuse to receive their lord and resist and contradict him." [SH66]





Likewise in the words of John Winthrop, first governor of Massachusetts Bay Colony: "justifieinge the undertakeres of the intended Plantation in New England ... to carry the Gospell into those parts of the world, ... and to raise a Bulworke against the kingdome of the Ante-Christ." [SH235]



In average two thirds of the native population were killed by colonist-imported smallpox before violence began. This was a great sign of "the marvelous goodness and providence of God" to the Christians of course, e.g. the Governor of the Massachusetts Bay Colony wrote in 1634, as "for the natives, they are near all dead of the smallpox, so as the Lord hath cleared our title to what we possess." [SH109,238]



On Hispaniola alone, on Columbus visits, the native population (Arawak), a rather harmless and happy people living on an island of abundant natural resources, a literal paradise, soon mourned 50,000 dead. [SH204]



The surviving Indians fell victim to rape, murder, enslavement and spanish raids.



As one of the culprits wrote: "So many Indians died that they could not be counted, all through the land the Indians lay dead everywhere. The stench was very great and pestiferous." [SH69]



The indian chief Hatuey fled with his people but was captured and burned alive. As "they were tying him to the stake a Franciscan friar urged him to take Jesus to his heart so that his soul might go to heaven, rather than descend into hell. Hatuey replied that if heaven was where the Christians went, he would rather go to hell." [SH70]



What happened to his people was described by an eyewitness:
"The Spaniards found pleasure in inventing all kinds of odd cruelties ... They built a long gibbet, long enough for the toes to touch the ground to prevent strangling, and hanged thirteen [natives] at a time in honor of Christ Our Saviour and the twelve Apostles... then, straw was wrapped around their torn bodies and they were burned alive." [SH72]
Or, on another occasion:
"The Spaniards cut off the arm of one, the leg or hip of another, and from some their heads at one stroke, like butchers cutting up beef and mutton for market. Six hundred, including the cacique, were thus slain like brute beasts...Vasco [de Balboa] ordered forty of them to be torn to pieces by dogs." [SH83]



The "island's population of about eight million people at the time of Columbus's arrival in 1492 already had declined by a third to a half before the year 1496 was out." Eventually all the island's natives were exterminated, so the Spaniards were "forced" to import slaves from other caribbean islands, who soon suffered the same fate. Thus "the Caribbean's millions of native people [were] thereby effectively liquidated in barely a quarter of a century". [SH72-73] "In less than the normal lifetime of a single human being, an entire culture of millions of people, thousands of years resident in their homeland, had been exterminated." [SH75]



"And then the Spanish turned their attention to the mainland of Mexico and Central America. The slaughter had barely begun. The exquisite city of Tenochtitln [Mexico city] was next." [SH75]



Cortez, Pizarro, De Soto and hundreds of other spanish conquistadors likewise sacked southern and mesoamerican civilizations in the name of Christ (De Soto also sacked Florida).



"When the 16th century ended, some 200,000 Spaniards had moved to the Americas. By that time probably more than 60,000,000 natives were dead." [SH95]


Of course no different were the founders of what today is the US of Amerikkka.




Although none of the settlers would have survived winter without native help, they soon set out to expel and exterminate the Indians. Warfare among (north American) Indians was rather harmless, in comparison to European standards, and was meant to avenge insults rather than conquer land. In the words of some of the pilgrim fathers: "Their Warres are farre less bloudy...", so that there usually was "no great slawter of nether side". Indeed, "they might fight seven yeares and not kill seven men." What is more, the Indians usually spared women and children. [SH111]



In the spring of 1612 some English colonists found life among the (generally friendly and generous) natives attractive enough to leave Jamestown - "being idell ... did runne away unto the Indyans," - to live among them (that probably solved a sex problem).
"Governor Thomas Dale had them hunted down and executed: 'Some he apointed (sic) to be hanged Some burned Some to be broken upon wheles, others to be staked and some shott to deathe'." [SH105] Of course these elegant measures were restricted for fellow englishmen: "This was the treatment for those who wished to act like Indians. For those who had no choice in the matter, because they were the native people of Virginia" methods were different: "when an Indian was accused by an Englishman of stealing a cup and failing to return it, the English response was to attack the natives in force, burning the entire community" down. [SH105]



On the territory that is now Massachusetts the founding fathers of the colonies were committing genocide, in what has become known as the "Peqout War". The killers were New England Puritan Christians, refugees from persecution in their own home country England.



When however, a dead colonist was found, apparently killed by Narragansett Indians, the Puritan colonists wanted revenge. Despite the Indian chief's pledge they attacked.
Somehow they seem to have lost the idea of what they were after, because when they were greeted by Pequot Indians (long-time foes of the Narragansetts) the troops nevertheless made war on the Pequots and burned their villages.
The puritan commander-in-charge John Mason after one massacre wrote: "And indeed such a dreadful Terror did the Almighty let fall upon their Spirits, that they would fly from us and run into the very Flames, where many of them perished ... God was above them, who laughed his Enemies and the Enemies of his People to Scorn, making them as a fiery Oven ... Thus did the Lord judge among the Heathen, filling the Place with dead Bodies": men, women, children. [SH113-114]



So "the Lord was pleased to smite our Enemies in the hinder Parts, and to give us their land for an inheritance". [SH111].



Because of his readers' assumed knowledge of Deuteronomy, there was no need for Mason to quote the words that immediately follow:
"Thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth. But thou shalt utterly destroy them..." (Deut 20)



Mason's comrade Underhill recalled how "great and doleful was the bloody sight to the view of the young soldiers" yet reassured his readers that "sometimes the Scripture declareth women and children must perish with their parents". [SH114]



Other Indians were killed in successful plots of poisoning. The colonists even had dogs especially trained to kill Indians and to devour children from their mothers breasts, in the colonists' own words: "blood Hounds to draw after them, and Mastives to seaze them." (This was inspired by spanish methods of the time)
In this way they continued until the extermination of the Pequots was near. [SH107-119]



The surviving handful of Indians "were parceled out to live in servitude. John Endicott and his pastor wrote to the governor asking for 'a share' of the captives, specifically 'a young woman or girle and a boy if you thinke good'." [SH115]



Other tribes were to follow the same path.



Comment the Christian exterminators: "God's Will, which will at last give us cause to say: How Great is His Goodness! and How Great is his Beauty!"
"Thus doth the Lord Jesus make them to bow before him, and to lick the Dust!" [TA]



Like today, lying was OK to Christians then. "Peace treaties were signed with every intention to violate them: when the Indians 'grow secure uppon (sic) the treatie', advised the Council of State in Virginia, 'we shall have the better Advantage both to surprise them, & cutt downe theire Corne'." [SH106]



In 1624 sixty heavily armed Englishmen cut down 800 defenseless Indian men, women and children. [SH107]



In a single massacre in "King Philip's War" of 1675 and 1676 some "600 Indians were destroyed. A delighted Cotton Mather, revered pastor of the Second Church in Boston, later referred to the slaughter as a 'barbeque'." [SH115]



To summarize: Before the arrival of the English, the western Abenaki people in New Hampshire and Vermont had numbered 12,000. Less than half a century later about 250 remained alive - a destruction rate of 98%. The Pocumtuck people had numbered more than 18,000, fifty years later they were down to 920 - 95% destroyed. The Quiripi-Unquachog people had numbered about 30,000, fifty years later they were down to 1500 - 95% destroyed. The Massachusetts people had numbered at least 44,000, fifty years later barely 6000 were alive - 81% destroyed. [SH118] These are only a few examples of the multitude of tribes living before Christian colonists set their foot on the New World. All this was before the smallpox epidemics of 1677 and 1678 had occurred. And the carnage was not over then.



All the above was only the beginning of the European colonization, it was before the frontier age actually had begun.



A total of maybe more than 150 million Indians (of both Americas) were destroyed in the period of 1500 to 1900, as an average two thirds by smallpox and other epidemics, that leaves some 50 million killed directly by violence, bad treatment and slavery.



In many countries, such as Brazil, and Guatemala, this continues even today.


*
More Glorious events in US history
*




Reverend Solomon Stoddard, one of New England's most esteemed religious leaders, in "1703 formally proposed to the Massachusetts Governor that the colonists be given the financial wherewithal to purchase and train large packs of dogs 'to hunt Indians as they do bears'." [SH241]



Massacre of Sand Creek, Colorado 11/29/1864. Colonel John Chivington, a former Methodist minister and still elder in the church ("I long to be wading in gore") had a Cheyenne village of about 600, mostly women and children, gunned down despite the chiefs' waving with a white flag: 400-500 killed.
From an eye-witness account: "There were some thirty or forty squaws collected in a hole for protection; they sent out a little girl about six years old with a white flag on a stick; she had not proceeded but a few steps when she was shot and killed. All the squaws in that hole were afterwards killed ..." [SH131]
More gory details.



By the 1860s, "in Hawai'i the Reverend Rufus Anderson surveyed the carnage that by then had reduced those islands' native population by 90 percent or more, and he declined to see it as tragedy; the expected total die-off of the Hawaiian population was only natural, this missionary said, somewhat equivalent to 'the amputation of diseased members of the body'." [SH244]


*
20th Century Church Atrocities
*




*Catholic extermination camps*
Surpisingly few know that Nazi extermination camps in World War II were by no means the only ones in Europe at the time. In the years 1942-1943 also in Croatia existed numerous extermination camps, run by Catholic Ustasha under their dictator Ante Paveli, a practising Catholic and regular visitor to the then pope. There were even concentration camps exclusively for children!

In these camps - the most notorious was Jasenovac, headed by a Franciscan friar - orthodox-Christian serbians (and a substantial number of Jews) were murdered. Like the Nazis the Catholic Ustasha burned their victims in kilns, alive (the Nazis were decent enough to have their victims gassed first). But most of the victims were simply stabbed, slain or shot to death, the number of them being estimated between 300,000 and 600,000, in a rather tiny country. Many of the killers were Franciscan friars. The atrocities were appalling enough to induce bystanders of the Nazi "Sicherheitsdient der SS", watching, to complain about them to Hitler (who did not listen). The pope knew about these events and did nothing to prevent them. [MV]



*Catholic terror in Vietnam*
In 1954 Vietnamese freedom fighters - the Viet Minh - had finally defeated the French colonial government in North Vietnam, which by then had been supported by U.S. funds amounting to more than $2 billion. Although the victorious assured religious freedom to all (most non-buddhist Vietnamese were Catholics), due to huge anticommunist propaganda campaigns many Catholics fled to the South. With the help of Catholic lobbies in Washington and Cardinal Spellman, the Vatican's spokesman in U.S. politics, who later on would call the U.S. forces in Vietnam "Soldiers of Christ", a scheme was concocted to prevent democratic elections which could have brought the communist Viet Minh to power in the South as well, and the fanatic Catholic Ngo Dinh Diem was made president of South Vietnam. [MW16ff]

Diem saw to it that U.S. aid, food, technical and general assistance was given to Catholics alone, Buddhist individuals and villages were ignored or had to pay for the food aids which were given to Catholics for free. The only religious denomination to be supported was Roman Catholicism.

The Vietnamese McCarthyism turned even more vicious than its American counterpart. By 1956 Diem promulgated a presidential order which read:




"Individuals considered dangerous to the national defense and common security may be confined by executive order, to a *concentration camp.*"





> Supposedly to fight communism, thousands of buddhist protesters and monks were imprisoned in "detention camps." Out of protest dozens of buddhist teachers - male and female - and monks poured gasoline over themselves and burned themselves. (_Note that Buddhists burned themselves: in comparison Christians tend to burn others_). Meanwhile some of the prison camps, which in the meantime were filled with Protestant and even Catholic protesters as well, had turned into no-nonsense death camps. It is estimated that during this period of terror (1955-1960) at least 24,000 were wounded - mostly in street riots - 80,000 people were executed, 275,000 had been detained or tortured, and about 500,000 were sent to concentration or detention camps. [MW76-89].
> 
> To support this kind of government in the next decade thousands of American GI's lost their life....





*Rwanda Massacres*
In 1994 in the small african country of Rwanda in just a few months several hundred thousand civilians were butchered, apparently a conflict of the Hutu and Tutsi ethnic groups.




> For quite some time I heard only rumours about Catholic clergy actively involved in the 1994 Rwanda massacres. Odd denials of involvement were printed in Catholic church journals, before even anybody had openly accused members of the church.
> 
> Then, 10/10/96, in the newscast of S2 Aktuell, Germany - a station not at all critical to Christianity - the following was stated:
> 
> ...


 As can be seen from these events, to Christianity the Dark Ages never come to an end....

*
References:
*

[DA]

K.Deschner, _Abermals krhte der Hahn_, Stuttgart 1962.

[DO]

K.Deschner, _Opus Diaboli_, Reinbek 1987.

[EC]

P.W.Edbury, _Crusade and Settlement_, Cardiff Univ. Press 1985.

[EJ]

S.Eidelberg, _The Jews and the Crusaders_, Madison 1977.

[LI]

H.C.Lea, _The Inquisition of the Middle Ages_, New York 1961.

[MM]

M.Margolis, A.Marx, _A History of the Jewish People_.

[MV]

A.Manhattan, _The Vatican's Holocaust_, Springfield 1986.
See also V.Dedijer, _The Yugoslav Auschwitz and the Vatican_, Buffalo NY, 1992.

[NC]

J.T.Noonan, _Contraception: A History of its Treatment by the Catholic Theologians and Canonists_, Cambridge/Mass., 1992.

[S2]

Newscast of S2 Aktuell, Germany, 10/10/96, 12:00.

[SH]

D.Stannard, _American Holocaust_, Oxford University Press 1992.

[SP]

German news magazine _Der Spiegel_, no.49, 12/2/1996.

[TA] _A True Account of the Most Considerable Occurrences that have Hapned in the Warre Between the English and the Indians in New England_, London 1676.

[TG]

F.Turner, _Beyond Geography_, New York 1980.

[WW]

H.Wollschlger: _Die bewaffneten Wallfahrten gen Jerusalem_, Zrich 1973.
(This is in german and what is worse, it is out of print. But it is the best I ever read about crusades and includes a full list of original medieval Christian chroniclers' writings).

[WV]

Estimates on the number of executed witches:




N.Cohn, _Europe's Inner Demons: An Enquiry Inspired by the Great Witch Hunt_, Frogmore 1976, 253.



R.H.Robbins, _The Encyclopedia of Witchcraft and Demonology_, New York 1959, 180.



J.B.Russell, _Witchcraft in the Middle Ages_, Ithaca/NY 1972, 39.



H.Zwetsloot, _Friedrich Spee und die Hexenprozesse_, Trier 1954, 56.


----------



## zak007 (Nov 12, 2011)

JoePears182 said:


> Wait are you really claiming every single History book ever written made up the history that brought about the crusades?
> 
> 400 years of attacks of the Caliphate on Christian nations of Syria, Spain, Portugal, Byzantine, France etc? You are denying things that are in every single history book on the subject. You are basically denying facts then shouting islamophobe when people point them out to you. You are a non muslim like me, you take PED's, I don't believe in god. We should be brothers in atheism.


 You have not provided a shred of evidence. and you posted one side of the story. What do you think this implies?

I'm off now enjoy your sunday early morning rant


----------



## aseeby19 (May 3, 2010)

@JoePears182 what is time , what was there before it ? is everyone experiencing time at the same rate ? can it be slowed down ? can we go back in time ? can we obsersve what happened in the universe years ago ? its only science dude , try not to google the answers 

@zak007 bringing up someone elses f**k ups doesn't excuse you from your own  and if you know the other person is talking out of their ass then why bother ?


----------



## UK2USA (Jan 30, 2016)

@JoePears182

What have any of your ramblings done to answer the questions of the OP?

Why are you on this thread? Feel free to start your own thread based on any subject matter you like.


----------



## Tomahawk (Dec 24, 2014)

muscle123 said:


> Hello everybody
> 
> In a few days, I'm going to be fasting.
> 
> ...


 It works but I think it's not ideal. If you can possibly train after 10pm or before 4 am, it's better, primarily because of water. When your body is low on water, it breaks down muscle to release water.

I would recommend at 10pm, get some water, BCAA, and a bit of fruit down, train 10:15-11:15, and then eat.


----------



## JohhnyC (Mar 16, 2015)

zak007 said:


> It's a bodybuilding forum, not a forum to entice hatred as is the effect of your continous muslim bashing.
> 
> No-one has left now but people have done before. You do not contribute and serve only to raise tensions. What religion do you follow?


 yeah I fully agree! The poster is just asking for bodybuilding advice while fasting. This is his first post and many start having a dig at his religion. Its dumb!

Debate this stuff in another section and only when its asked asnd thats the topic otherwise, keep on topic

I do think there should be a lot more warnings and bans handed out as this is getting boring


----------



## Gary29 (Aug 21, 2011)

Absolutely tedious.


----------



## killamanjaro (Dec 30, 2013)

This is embarassing to watch, are there any moderators on this forum?


----------



## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

killamanjaro said:


> This is embarassing to watch, are there any moderators on this forum?


 yes there are who surprisingly have lives and can only look at a thread if it is reported.......

Thread closed as it is fukcing stupid


----------

