# What's the best timing for a weight gain shake and carbs for a bulk?



## cudsyaj (Jul 5, 2011)

As per title... I've just cut from 96-86kg and looking lean, nice six pack on show but not super ripped like competition level or anything but probably about 10%



So this is my abs now.

I'd like to bulk properly, something I've never done!! Having cut using a "carb cycling" and "carb timing" method (only breakfast and PWO carbs on the carb days and cycling the rest low, med, high) question is can this "carb cycling" and "carb timing" method be applied to bulking??

Maybe some carbs for breakfast, a few for lunch but the majority PWO and within the 2 hour carb window PWO?

Got some Mutant Mass and its got a nice blend of proteins, sugars and carbs but I think it's breakdown is only best PWO... a nice 1000 cal hit with some fast n slow gi sugars n carbs?

Is my theory right or am I way off mark here.

I want to minimise fat gain, happy to lose the abs for a bit but DO NOT want to swap it for a belly which is what I've always had.


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## Greg89 (Apr 19, 2010)

Stick to carbtiming / carb backloading mate, just up the cals compared to your cut. Using that method has been the only time i've managed to properly gain weight with minimal fat gain - every other bulk has been a pretty bad ratio of fat/muscle gain even eating clean.

Minimal carbs for all your preworkout meals but still get a decent amount of cals, then a huge amount of carbs postworkout.

Snacking on peanut butter through the day ontop of your usual meals will help get the lowcarb cals in. I doubt u need any advice on the postworkout carbs

The only thing u will have to experiment with is how to eat on nonlifting days.. A lot of people still eat a decent amount of carbs at the postworkout sort of time if theyre bulking but personally that didnt work well for me so I stuck to low carbs all day on nonlifting days, but making sure the cals are still there


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## cudsyaj (Jul 5, 2011)

Greg89 said:


> Stick to carbtiming / carb backloading mate, just up the cals compared to your cut. Using that method has been the only time i've managed to properly gain weight with minimal fat gain - every other bulk has been a pretty bad ratio of fat/muscle gain even eating clean.
> 
> Minimal carbs for all your preworkout meals but still get a decent amount of cals, then a huge amount of carbs postworkout.
> 
> ...


Ok, funny you say that as I was kinda thinking the same but wanting some ides/experience and clarity on it from other people.

So maybe stick to low carbs on non-training days and all carbs PWO only. Maybe +250cals on non-training days and +500cals after weights - just a starting point. That makes logic right??

The body is most acceptable to carbs and nutrients PWO anyway right??


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## Greg89 (Apr 19, 2010)

cudsyaj said:


> Ok, funny you say that as I was kinda thinking the same but wanting some ides/experience and clarity on it from other people.
> 
> So maybe stick to low carbs on non-training days and all carbs PWO only. Maybe +250cals on non-training days and +500cals after weights - just a starting point. That makes logic right??
> 
> The body is most acceptable to carbs and nutrients PWO anyway right??


For me personally its the best way to gain weight whilst minimising fat gain.. 100% best results ive had in years of training.

Pretty much what you said yeh... A simple way of looking at it is to make sure nearly all carbs you eat follow a heavy weight lifting session. The rest of the time (all meals preworkout/ non lifting days) should have minimal carbs. Like i said, some people still eat carbs on nonlifting days if theyre bulking but it didnt work too well for me.

Just make sure you're still getting enough calories in though - thats where i love peanut butter to keep the lowcarb parts of the day still high enough in cals. If u want to use the gainer, immediately postworkout would be the best.


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## cudsyaj (Jul 5, 2011)

Greg89 said:


> For me personally its the best way to gain weight whilst minimising fat gain.. 100% best results ive had in years of training.
> 
> Pretty much what you said yeh... A simple way of looking at it is to make sure nearly all carbs you eat follow a heavy weight lifting session. The rest of the time (all meals preworkout/ non lifting days) should have minimal carbs. Like i said, some people still eat carbs on nonlifting days if theyre bulking but it didnt work too well for me.
> 
> Just make sure you're still getting enough calories in though - thats where i love peanut butter to keep the lowcarb parts of the day still high enough in cals. If u want to use the gainer, immediately postworkout would be the best.


Exactly my thoughts - read about a few gainers and the Mutant Mass looked decent enough for the price and it's macros seemed perfect for a BIG PWO shake... then I'll probs just do my usual skin on sweet potato chips and some lean meat an hour half later, then half tub of quark, half scoop whey and some grated almonds & dark chocolate for desert cos that's also almost zero carbs but MASSIVE on taste and protein 

Got a load of peanut butter on hand as well 

What's your thoughts of HIIT fasted with low carbs on rest days... that's what I've done to cut anyway? Would keeping fats and proteins over maintenance mean you have a calorie surplus for gaining but no carbs to be stored as fat?

Plus the cardio, heart and fat burning benefits of the HIIT?


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## Greg89 (Apr 19, 2010)

I think you will find that you need a *lot* more carbs post workout mate.. One sweet potato and a shake is probably not going to be enough for a bulk. The desert isn't ideal either - you want high amounts of carbs postworkout and to keep fats minimal with the carb backloading diet.

Ideally, say you're aiming for 3500 calories, i'd be eating 1500 preworkout of protein and fat, and then 2000 postworkout of protein and carbs - which is going to be a lot more carbs than you're looking at with a sweet potato.

Lifting days:

Meal 1: Protein/Fat

Meal 2: Protein/Fat

Meal 3: Protein/Fat

Workout

Meal 4 PWO: Shake

Meal 5: Protein/Carbs

Meal 6: Protein/Carbs

Non-lifting days

Meal 1: Protein/Fat

Meal 2: Protein/Fat

Meal 3: Protein/Fat

Meal 4: Protein/Fat

Meal 5: Protein/Fat

If you follow that structure and make sure you are always in a decent calorie surplus you will gain weight, and for me, the weight gain is always at a much better ratio of muscle:fat than your stereotypical mens health diet.

A bit of AM cardio will definately help keep the fat off you but make sure you eat enough to still be in a decent calorie surplus or you're not going to gain much


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## Big ape (May 5, 2011)

if your worried about the shake consuming to many calories in one sitting ... split it into 2 shakes 500 cal each ...


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## Big ape (May 5, 2011)

also would just slowly add cals in each week.. and i always do HIIT with food in the stomach = more energy = more effort = more optimal


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## cudsyaj (Jul 5, 2011)

Greg89 said:


> I think you will find that you need a *lot* more carbs post workout mate.. One sweet potato and a shake is probably not going to be enough for a bulk. The desert isn't ideal either - you want high amounts of carbs postworkout and to keep fats minimal with the carb backloading diet.
> 
> Ideally, say you're aiming for 3500 calories, i'd be eating 1500 preworkout of protein and fat, and then 2000 postworkout of protein and carbs - which is going to be a lot more carbs than you're looking at with a sweet potato.
> 
> ...


Sorry buddy, typing at work... likely meal PWO would be with rice, sweet potatoe, veg and meat  not just a solitary sweet tatty, haha, typing this at work.

This also looks like a solid protocol to follow, I'll have the whole of this month to plan it out as well... wanna hit 85-84kg before bulking ideally, as lean as I think I'll get and a little tighter than I am now 



Big ape said:


> if your worried about the shake consuming to many calories in one sitting ... split it into 2 shakes 500 cal each ...


Actually the opposite, my theory is about smashing as many calories PWO as possible and the rest of the days meals keeping them low carb!


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## Big ape (May 5, 2011)

Whats the reason behind smashing them all PWO? .... chances are u will have bad gut problems if u just come from a cut then your gonna go smash 1000+ cal PWO


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## cudsyaj (Jul 5, 2011)

Big ape said:


> Whats the reason behind smashing them all PWO? .... chances are u will have bad gut problems if u just come from a cut then your gonna go smash 1000+ cal PWO


Ah, actually I was going to adjust carbs slightly and bring cals upto maintenance, then go up +600 on top of what I have already PWO... currently I have oats and whey PWO which is about 350-400cals anyway.

I'll only be including sweet tatty n rice to my meat and veg.

I meant an extra 1000cals over my PWO shake and meal... so kinda a big jump in a two hour PWO window.


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## cudsyaj (Jul 5, 2011)

Greg89 said:


> I think you will find that you need a *lot* more carbs post workout mate.. One sweet potato and a shake is probably not going to be enough for a bulk. The desert isn't ideal either - you want high amounts of carbs postworkout and to keep fats minimal with the carb backloading diet.
> 
> Ideally, say you're aiming for 3500 calories, i'd be eating 1500 preworkout of protein and fat, and then 2000 postworkout of protein and carbs - which is going to be a lot more carbs than you're looking at with a sweet potato.
> 
> ...


Ok, reading a lot more into this now, kinda playing around with more calories and timing carbs but what do you think of this article - it talks of carb timing, carb spreading and backloading which is what you described above - http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/most_recent/controlledcarb_bulking_strategy&cr=


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