# critique this routine



## smallboy (Jun 13, 2013)

Lower: Squat, Deadlift, calf raise, plank

Upper: Bench, Rows, OHP, Chinup, Wide grip Pendley row at neck/upper chest level for rear delts

first set 4-6 reps for progressive overload then drop weight by 10-15% for volume using either rest pause multiple sets of 3 reps with shorter rest or standard 3 straight sets of 8-12 reps.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

To clarify terminology, progressive overload doesn't just mean lifting more weight at low reps. It means lifting more weight in any rep range, or doing more reps at the same weight (amongst other things).

I wouldn't personally just do a single set of 4-6. You'll be spending a lot of time warning up to get to this for just one set. To get the mix you want what I'd do instead is have one workout focused on multiple lower rep sets, and the next on higher rep sets.

In terms of exercises what you have is OK but bear in mind again that you could choose to vary things between workouts. For example flat bench and OHP one workout (maybe for low reps) and then decline and incline dumbbell presses (for higher reps) the next. Getting lateral raises in on one workout might be a good idea too.

Ultimately with any workout you need to try it and see how it works for you. Personally I find balancing back work across upper/lowers the tricky bit for example (deadlifts work your back).


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## Charlee Scene (Jul 6, 2010)

Why would you not do progressive overload on your volume work :s

i would do first few exercises 3-5 x 3-5 then the rest 3 x 8-12 and mabye some 12-15

or one heavy sesh and one lighter


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## smallboy (Jun 13, 2013)

Ultrasonic said:


> To clarify terminology, progressive overload doesn't just mean lifting more weight at low reps. It means lifting more weight in any rep range, or doing more reps at the same weight (amongst other things).
> 
> I wouldn't personally just do a single set of 4-6. You'll be spending a lot of time warning up to get to this for just one set. To get the mix you want what I'd do instead is have one workout focused on multiple lower rep sets, and the next on higher rep sets.
> 
> ...


 yes, i just progress the weight whenever i hit 6 reps in first set. like reverse pyramid training.

lower reps in session and high reps in next session, isnt it slower progress as only can track lifting weight once per week?


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## smallboy (Jun 13, 2013)

Charlee Scene said:


> Why would you not do progressive overload on your volume work :s
> 
> i would do first few exercises 3-5 x 3-5 then the rest 3 x 8-12 and mabye some 12-15
> 
> or one heavy sesh and one lighter


 quite hard to progress using straight sets. no energy after few sets. like 5 5 5 4 3. longer time to progress than 1 set progressive overload.


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## simonthepieman (Jun 11, 2012)

It's a perfectly fine routine and approach and should work well.

Maybe chuck some lunges in there to keep your lower body balanced and prevent injury


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

smallboy said:


> yes, i just progress the weight whenever i hit 6 reps in first set. like reverse pyramid training.
> 
> lower reps in session and high reps in next session, isnt it slower progress as only can track lifting weight once per week?


 You should be making progress on all lifts in each workout, or at least you should be aiming to. See my comment about what progressive overload is.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

smallboy said:


> quite hard to progress using straight sets. no energy after few sets. like 5 5 5 4 3. longer time to progress than 1 set progressive overload.


 Given where you posted I'm assuming size is your priority? If so multiple sets of 4-6 reps will produce more hypertrophy than a single set, and if you've done one set you should easily be able to do more. I realise you have a number of options of how to add more volume after your single set put personally I'd just stick with the same weight as I suggested.

Obviously if you know what you've suggested works well for you then crack on, but as you asked for opinions I've just shared my thoughts.


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## simonthepieman (Jun 11, 2012)

Ultrasonic said:


> You should be making progress on all lifts in each workout, or at least you should be aiming to. See my comment about what progressive overload is.


 I'd actually say OPs method is valid. Personally I find if you focus on hitting your top set then the rest will follow. Whilst beating all your lifts is the optimum goal it can be challenging to do weekly.

If you can hit your top set target and have a solid session of assistance at a high RPE you will make equally good progress in my experience.

I tend to be reactive I've with my assistance work. Time often forces that upon me. But rather that stick to fixed schedule I just get the effort and volume in. So long as i make progress on the top set I know which direction I'm heading


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

simonthepieman said:


> I'd actually say OPs method is valid. Personally I find if you focus on hitting your top set then the rest will follow. Whilst beating all your lifts is the optimum goal it can be challenging to do weekly.
> 
> If you can hit your top set target and have a solid session of assistance at a high RPE you will make equally good progress in my experience.
> 
> I tend to be reactive I've with my assistance work. Time often forces that upon me. But rather that stick to fixed schedule I just get the effort and volume in. So long as i make progress on the top set I know which direction I'm heading


 To an extent that depends on how advanced the OP is. I'd taken it that he had whole body development in mind rather than prioritising one area?

If I were aiming to focus development in one area then I'd reduce volume/frequency in others purely to maintain.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

simonthepieman said:


> I'd actually say OPs method is valid. Personally I find if you focus on hitting your top set then the rest will follow. Whilst beating all your lifts is the optimum goal it can be challenging to do weekly.
> 
> If you can hit your top set target and have a solid session of assistance at a high RPE you will make equally good progress in my experience.
> 
> I tend to be reactive I've with my assistance work. Time often forces that upon me. But rather that stick to fixed schedule I just get the effort and volume in. So long as i make progress on the top set I know which direction I'm heading


 Actually realise I missed the point of what you were saying there! (Writing a post in stages between sets of a leg workout doesn't always lead to the best posts...)

I have to admit I've never tried only doing a single heavy set. Partly as conceptually I don't think it makes the most sense, and also as to be honest I like to minimise the amount of faffing about swapping weights. It's interesting you've found this works well for you though, noted.

Taking subsequent lower weight sets to failure would arguably achieve the same thing but I'm assuming that wasn't what you had in mind, right?


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## simonthepieman (Jun 11, 2012)

Ultrasonic said:


> Actually realise I missed the point of what you were saying there! (Writing a post in stages between sets of a leg workout doesn't always lead to the best posts...)
> 
> I have two admit I've never tried only doing a single heavy for set. Partly as conceptually I don't think it makes the most sense, and also as to be honest I like to minimise the amount of faffing about swapping weights. It's interesting you've found this works well for you though, noted.
> 
> Taking subsequent lower weight sets to failure would arguably achieve the same thing but I'm assuming that wasn't what you had in mind, right?


 Pretty much.

So long as the cat gets skinned


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

I think that way of training works well. There are various ways to build a routine that includes both a primarily load based progression and a primarily volume based progression and I think that doing so, however you do it, is superior to just sticking to a single mode of progression.

I would add an extra exercise or two to lower body though, and would contemplate doing a few extra heavy sets spread over the exercises chosen. Perhaps not when starting the routine, but gradually add them in over time.


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## Charlee Scene (Jul 6, 2010)

smallboy said:


> quite hard to progress using straight sets. no energy after few sets. like 5 5 5 4 3. longer time to progress than 1 set progressive overload.


 True dat, what I do is work up to an rpe9 on a certain number of reps between 2-5 on that day then drop 5% and to get volume in that same rep goal untill hit rpe9 again, just on compounds though, the rest is 3 x 8-12 or 2/3 x 12-15 up the reps or weight when I can


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## Kevin Levrone (Nov 13, 2016)

If your goal is hypertrophy, any routine would work.


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## Charlee Scene (Jul 6, 2010)

dtlv said:


> I think that way of training works well. There are various ways to build a routine that includes both a primarily load based progression and a primarily volume based progression and I think that doing so, however you do it, is superior to just sticking to a single mode of progression.
> 
> I would add an extra exercise or two to lower body though, and would contemplate doing a few extra heavy sets spread over the exercises chosen. Perhaps not when starting the routine, but gradually add them in over time.


 Would be doing for example push day, your first 2 exercises say 3 x 4-6 then the rest of the exercises say 3 x 8-12 or 12-5 be valid for what you were explaining?

thats what if been doing but might mix it up and do some reverse pyramids and get a top set 4-6 then 6-8 then 8-10


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## Quackerz (Dec 19, 2015)

Kevin Levrone said:


> If your goal is hypertrophy, any routine would work.


 That's a fairly bold statement.


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## Kevin Levrone (Nov 13, 2016)

Quackerz said:


> That's a fairly bold statement.


 I know. This statement can brought lot of criticism but this is what I have experienced. Now, I don't bother with any routine. I just enter the gym and decide what body part I would hit today. And yes, I am constantly improving.

Results of not following any routine.

https://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/topic/294630-hello-ukm/?do=embed


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## Quackerz (Dec 19, 2015)

Kevin Levrone said:


> I know. This statement can brought lot of criticism but this is what I have experienced. Now, I don't bother with any routine. I just enter the gym and decide what body part I would hit today. And yes, I am constantly improving.
> 
> Results of not following any routine.
> 
> https://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/topic/294630-hello-ukm/?do=embed


 But you follow basic principals for hypertrophy training yes? Not all programming is centred around this.


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## Kevin Levrone (Nov 13, 2016)

Quackerz said:


> But you follow basic principals for hypertrophy training yes? Not all programming is centred around this.


 I keep in mind two things, one I lift with good intention whatever the weight and second diet is on point. Apart from these two things, I don't care much about anything. I sometimes find progressive overload is a hype too after several years of training.


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## Kevin Levrone (Nov 13, 2016)

Quackerz said:


> But you follow basic principals for hypertrophy training yes? Not all programming is centred around this.


 I keep in mind two things, one I lift with good intention whatever the weight and second diet is on point. Apart from these two things, I don't care much about anything. I sometimes find progressive overload is a hype too after several years of training.


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## Quackerz (Dec 19, 2015)

Kevin Levrone said:


> I keep in mind two things, one I lift with good intention whatever the weight and second diet is on point. Apart from these two things, I don't care much about anything. I sometimes find progressive overload is a hype too after several years of training.


 Progressive overload isn't hype, are you saying you are still lifting the same weights you were lifting when you started? I doubt it.


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## Kevin Levrone (Nov 13, 2016)

Quackerz said:


> Progressive overload isn't hype, are you saying you are still lifting the same weights you were lifting when you started? I doubt it.


 I stated "after sometime" it's all hype. I used to bench 120 kgs for reps year ago. Now I don't go beyond 100 with more or less same amount of sets, I still got big than before.


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## Quackerz (Dec 19, 2015)

Kevin Levrone said:


> I stated "after sometime" it's all hype. I used to bench 120 kgs for reps year ago. Now I don't go beyond 100 with more or less same amount of sets, I still got big than before.


 It's simply the laws of adaptation, if there is not enough stress being applied to the muscle it's not going to grow, you can't tell me that you have not progressed in the gym with either reps, weight, volume, whatever and continued to progress physically. You may be benching less than before, yes, but you would have increased one form of stimulus at least to be able to see improvement.


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## Ares (Dec 3, 2015)

Quackerz said:


> It's simply the laws of adaptation, if there is not enough stress being applied to the muscle it's not going to grow, you can't tell me that you have not progressed in the gym with either reps, weight, volume, whatever and continued to progress physically. You may be benching less than before, yes, but you would have increased one form of stimulus at least to be able to see improvement.


 Think he's on here just for self promotion tbh mate, there was no reason to link to his picture post :lol:


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Kevin Levrone said:


> I stated "after sometime" it's all hype. I used to bench 120 kgs for reps year ago. Now I don't go beyond 100 with more or less same amount of sets, I still got big than before.


 I'll wager you're still pushing yourself in some way at the lower weight though? Doing slower, controlled reps focusing on contraction to failure is still a form of progressive overload.

Drugs help of course...


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## Quackerz (Dec 19, 2015)

Ares said:


> Think he's on here just for self promotion tbh mate, there was no reason to link to his picture post :lol:


 Attention......


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## Kevin Levrone (Nov 13, 2016)

Quackerz said:


> It's simply the laws of adaptation, if there is not enough stress being applied to the muscle it's not going to grow, you can't tell me that you have not progressed in the gym with either reps, weight, volume, whatever and continued to progress physically. You may be benching less than before, yes, but you would have increased one form of stimulus at least to be able to see improvement.


 Yes. Have incorporated rest pause reps while lowering the weight. Don't know if it can be included in progressive overload or not.


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## Kevin Levrone (Nov 13, 2016)

Quackerz said:


> Attention......


 Once you have got it, flaunt it.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Kevin Levrone said:


> Yes. Have incorporated rest pause reps while lowering the weight. Don't know if it can be included in progressive overload or not.


 Anything that makes workouts increasingly more difficult over time is a form of progressive overload. The point is forcing the body to adapt.


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## Kevin Levrone (Nov 13, 2016)

Ares said:


> Think he's on here just for self promotion tbh mate, there was no reason to link to his picture post :lol:


 Lol. Wasn't intended but now as you have pointed out I am feeling lyk an attention seeking hoe


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## Kevin Levrone (Nov 13, 2016)

Ultrasonic said:


> Anything that makes workouts increasingly more difficult over time is a form of progressive overload. The point is forcing the body to adapt.


 Fair enough.


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## Quackerz (Dec 19, 2015)

Kevin Levrone said:


> Yes. Have incorporated rest pause reps while lowering the weight. Don't know if it can be included in progressive overload or not.


 I consider anything that causes an adaptation response to be a form of overload to be honest, the term gets too generalised but I guess we can just agree to disagree, no use arguing over semantics.



Kevin Levrone said:


> Once you have got it, flaunt it.


 You go girl. X


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## Kevin Levrone (Nov 13, 2016)

Quackerz said:


> I consider anything that causes an adaptation response to be a form of overload to be honest, the term gets too generalised but I guess we can just agree to disagree, no use arguing over semantics.
> 
> You go girl. X


 I never thought tbh that various stimulation techniques can be covered under progressive overloads as stated by ultrasonic but it's convincing


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## Quackerz (Dec 19, 2015)

Kevin Levrone said:


> I never thought tbh that various stimulation techniques can be covered under progressive overloads as stated by ultrasonic but it's convincing


 I would agree it's convincing, a stimulus is a stimulus.

Just out of curiosity do you have no structure at all to your workouts and just take each exercise as it comes and leave when you feel done? Full body? Split? Frequency? Is it all just simply randomised based on how you feel on that particular day?

I've always been training mostly heavy for strength so programming is something I have gotten used to, I know that the same structure isn't needed to build muscle but am quite curious as to how you go about your own training now.


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## Kevin Levrone (Nov 13, 2016)

Quackerz said:


> I would agree it's convincing, a stimulus is a stimulus.
> 
> Just out of curiosity do you have no structure at all to your workouts and just take each exercise as it comes and leave when you feel done? Full body? Split? Frequency? Is it all just simply randomised based on how you feel on that particular day?
> 
> I've always been training mostly heavy for strength so programming is something I have gotten used to, I know that the same structure isn't needed to build muscle but am quite curious as to how you go about your own training now.


 There are no set rules that I follow. There are weeks when I squat four times a week and then there are times when I don't do them whole week. Likewise, it applies for all body parts. There are few people around me that are knowledgeable on the subject who criticize me for this approach but I don't want to change anything till the time I am seeing improvements. There is also another group of people who are into Proffesional bodybuilding and they are of the view that I will grow no matter how I train if all other variables are fine.

Recently I competed on high calories while most of them do gradual cuts during the prep, I did carb manipulations in the last week. This was my first completion and most of them were calling me idiot till the time I step on stage.

No set rules, I want to try which others arent. If not succeed, I will improvise for sure.


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## smallboy (Jun 13, 2013)

Kevin Levrone said:


> Yes. Have incorporated rest pause reps while lowering the weight. Don't know if it can be included in progressive overload or not.


 how yours look like?

100kg 6 reps. rest 20 sec, 90kg 3 reps. rest 20 sec 80kg 3 reps and repeat?

or 100kg 6 reps. rest pause 20 sec using same 90kg?


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## Kevin Levrone (Nov 13, 2016)

smallboy said:


> how yours look like?
> 
> 100kg 6 reps. rest 20 sec, 90kg 3 reps. rest 20 sec 80kg 3 reps and repeat?
> 
> or 100kg 6 reps. rest pause 20 sec using same 90kg?


 I choose a weight , perform 3-4 reps then rest for 15 seconds then again perform 3-4 reps until i hit 12-15 reps. This is one of the way. Every week i perform something else. No theory of confusing the muscle just making my workouts a bit enjoyable.


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## Quackerz (Dec 19, 2015)

Kevin Levrone said:


> There are no set rules that I follow. There are weeks when I squat four times a week and then there are times when I don't do them whole week. Likewise, it applies for all body parts. There are few people around me that are knowledgeable on the subject who criticize me for this approach but I don't want to change anything till the time I am seeing improvements. There is also another group of people who are into Proffesional bodybuilding and they are of the view that I will grow no matter how I train if all other variables are fine.
> 
> Recently I competed on high calories while most of them do gradual cuts during the prep, I did carb manipulations in the last week. This was my first completion and most of them were calling me idiot till the time I step on stage.
> 
> No set rules, I want to try which others arent. If not succeed, I will improvise for sure.


 You are right, you should grow fine providing all other variables are met. You still have to train hard enough to cause a response though (fair play to you as you clearly do). Saying that it is only if you are training under the rules that govern hypertrophy and stimulating your muscular system that this could work. Bulgarian lite for instance, wouldn't make a shred of difference to your physique simply due to the stressors not being in place to elict the response necessary for muscular adaptation, it's neuromuscular-centric programming. I'm not trying to spout an argument, just playing devils advocate here.

Either way you clearly know how to push yourself, know how your body works and you are enjoying your own workouts at your own pace so keep doing it, your doing better that the 99% TBH.

Saying this I think programming does become crucial if increasing strength is the primary goal though, but that is a completely separate beast all together and a different subject really.


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

Charlee Scene said:


> Would be doing for example push day, your first 2 exercises say 3 x 4-6 then the rest of the exercises say 3 x 8-12 or 12-5 be valid for what you were explaining?


 Pretty much but wider rep ranges for the higher rep sets.

For the low rep/heavy load sets you pick a narrow rep range like 3-5 or 4-6. You look to increase the load as frequently as possible in very small increments. Sets don't have to be to failure but must be close.

For the higher rep/lighter load sets you increase the load far less frequently, but seek to increase reps from session to session within a much wider rep range, say 10-25 reps. You are also looking to hit failure on sets. When you do eventually increase the load you'd add enough weight to bring your reps back down to the lower end of the range.


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## Charlee Scene (Jul 6, 2010)

dtlv said:


> Pretty much but wider rep ranges for the higher rep sets.
> 
> For the low rep/heavy load sets you pick a narrow rep range like 3-5 or 4-6. You look to increase the load as frequently as possible in very small increments. Sets don't have to be to failure but must be close.
> 
> For the higher rep/lighter load sets you increase the load far less frequently, but seek to increase reps from session to session within a much wider rep range, say 10-25 reps. You are also looking to hit failure on sets. When you do eventually increase the load you'd add enough weight to bring your reps back down to the lower end of the range.


 Sounds good, I have been using an rpe approach for my squat bench n deads, then some exercises after are 6-10 and 8-15, if my last set or two of a particular exercise I feel I can't stay in the range I reduce weight slightly for the next set to stay in the range, I up when first set or two I hit the top end of the range and the last set or two is in the rep range same weight, your approach sounds good though


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## smallboy (Jun 13, 2013)

Kevin Levrone said:


> I choose a weight , perform 3-4 reps then rest for 15 seconds then again perform 3-4 reps until i hit 12-15 reps. This is one of the way. Every week i perform something else. No theory of confusing the muscle just making my workouts a bit enjoyable.


 lower reps with even shorter rest gives faster muscle gain? your body so good. what is your lifting stats for bench, squat, deadlift, rows and ohp?


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## Kevin Levrone (Nov 13, 2016)

smallboy said:


> lower reps with even shorter rest gives faster muscle gain? your body so good. what is your lifting stats for bench, squat, deadlift, rows and ohp?


 It's my way of doing the things because I enjoy it. It's not proven to build muscle faster. If one stick to 8-12 ranges with an aim of building muscle, it should work.

I don't chase numbers on load. I try heavy deadlift sometime, 220 kgs is my 1RM.


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

Kevin Levrone said:


> I choose a weight , perform 3-4 reps then rest for 15 seconds then again perform 3-4 reps until i hit 12-15 reps. This is one of the way. Every week i perform something else. No theory of confusing the muscle just making my workouts a bit enjoyable.


 I do like this way of training, especially for compound exercises most suited to low-ish rep sets like deadlifts, power cleans, push press, weighted chins and dips etc. Good to choose a load that would see failure a few reps higher than the mini set rep target you pick.


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