# Ketogenic diets



## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Another member was asking me questions in a PM about the diffrent keto type diets.

I put some PM's together so it will be a bit random but you will get a better idea of what and why.

Ok, the difference from a keto diet to a cyclical ketogenic diet (CKD), is simple.

A ketogenic diet is where you use only fats for fuels.

This works very well for a sedentary person but not really that practical for a guy that trains with lets say resistance training.

This is because ATP and other things that use energy are limited.

So, one rep max may be the same but volume or stamina would be compromised.

Not to mention that when you introduce carbohydrates in cycles to the keto type diet, two things happen, you curb Cortisol, and you also push the thyroid to function better, as with keto diets the thyroid output gets less.

One thing that needs mentioning is the fact that with a keto diet you need fats, now you have some fats that are essential, (omega 6, 3, and 9), these the body cant manufacture.

If someone was to avoid the good fats, the body will say that it has a fat deficit and will hold onto its fat.

So, fish oils and oily fish are good, also of course nuts and seeds, but there is one Omega 6 fat that contains gamma linolenic acid, and that would come from evening primrose oil and also black currant oil, and borage oil.

So, basically you would do a ketogenic diet, then have refeeds with carbohydrates and you could very well do this once every 4 or 5 days where you eat only proteins and fats during the 4 days, then the last 2 meals can be carbohydrates with low protein and fat.

This will spike insulin and cram glycogen into the liver and muscle. Generally your muscles will feel really full.

This will give you the strength to really push in the gym and have a good workout, but you have to fall out back into ketosis.

Some feel they can get away with a carb meal first thing in the morning, and post workout.

I guess that would work but what we want to target here is fat loss. Growth hormone spikes when insulin is low, but remember the thyroid and the catabolic hormone Cortisol, this is why the carbs are cycled in to maintain a fast metabolism.

Ketogenic diets are nothing more than getting the body into ketosis where ketones are used for fuel. This comes from the body's ability to switch from burning sugar, to burning fats, nothing more nothing less.

But to get the body into ketosis you have to deprive the body of carbs, and increase the fats to supplement the energy requirements.

To do this you have to take in less than 30 grams of carbs a day.

You also won't get into ketosis if your protein is too high and or your fats are too low.

So, no more than 30 grams of carbs a day, figure out your total protein requirement, then fill the entire extra with fats.

It will take about 3 days to get into ketosis, it is totally necessary to supplement some vitamins and minerals as much of these come from fruits and vegetables which you are not eating right now, but you can and I will explain that.

Once the switch is made between carbs to fats (approx 3 days), you will have a boat load of energy and many will have far more energy and feel fantastic. Lets not forget that when this happens you are tapping into your own fat stores.

Due to insulin being very low GH will be higher and actually you will move to more insulin sensitivity.

Good fats, as I mentioned before there are essential fats and if you don't take them in the body will feel that it is fat deficient and hold on to that. So, you will need to add essential fats, fish oils will be a must, and get yourself some Evening Primrose Oil (EPO), the GLA in that will help you with fat loss as well and also the DHA that is in the fish oils, plus higher dose really allows you to feel awesome as it has a very good effect on the brain, mood will be elevated.

Macadamia nut oil will be a good idea as it has a higher cooking temperature than olive oil. As you know olive oil is awesome and a great addition to your diet as well, but you cant cook with high temperature with that, but macadamia nut oil you can, not to mention it is a very good fat as well and its profile is awesome.

How much fat?

That will depend on your energy requirements but also the ratio we need to address.

Up to 60% of your calories will be from fats; this will keep you in ketosis.

Remember saturated fats are required to make all the sex hormones, it is the cholesterol that all sex hormones are made, so you have to eat saturated fats, which wont be a problem as much of that will come from your protein sources and even cheese.

So, out of the 60% of the fats you take in 20% will need to be saturated, this will fulfill the requirement for your cholesterol and the manufacture of your sex hormones (testosterone, estrogen, pregnenolone, progesterone, etc.)

You can actually supplement pregnenolone in your diet if you like and this helps mood but I have not tried it but it looks totally promising, it can also convert to other sex hormones like testosterone, estrogen DHEA, progesterone, as needed.

That leaves your essential fats and that will be another 20% so you won't tell the body that you are fat deficient. Oily fish, fish oils, are all fine and necessary actually.

The other 20% will come monounsaturated fats, stuff like nuts and seeds, avocado, olive oil, macadamia nut oil, etc.

What carb sources?

Simple, think green here. Those that are green (broccoli, asparagus, green beans, spinach) all will be helpful to get your necessary minerals so you won't have too much acid ashing, and also it will be helpful as those on ketogenic diets because they tend to constipate people and this is the most common side effect. Another side effect is smelling, you may find that you have a certain stink about you and your mouth will taste like band aids&#8230;lol

Chlorophyll will be helpful here and so would be parsley.

But, you can get creative here, like eating strawberries, or even the outside of the apple where you will get nice fiber from that but few calories.

Remember that fiber burns calories too, 35 grams of fiber burns 250 calories to try to break down that fiber.

You would be so surprised at the volume of broccoli it would take to make up just 100 calories. Things like radishes have a big taste but not a lot of carbs and are filling.

Any low GI fruit or vegetable will be ok here.

Nuts and seeds do have carbs in them so this must be counted too.

Cheat meals would be carb sources and you can do 5 days on keto, and then on the 6th day last two meals can be carb sources only, small amount of protein but no fats.

They really are easy and I did kind of make it complicated but if you only ate protein and fat, even if it came from rashers or any source would actually work, but adding essential oils will be better, but no lie, some nights I had just bacon and cheese and I lost massive weight doing that.

Another thing here is the body can store fat, and it can store carbohydrates in the liver (about 70 grams), and several hundred in the muscle as glycogen.

The body has no way of storing protein, the only access to protein in the body is muscle and that would result in catabolism. You must keep a steady stream of amino's so that the body won't grab some from the muscle. So every few hours munch down a couple of eggs.

Speaking of eggs, get the omega 3 ones; they have 19 times the Omega 3's as store bought eggs. If you got a friend that has chickens then this would be ideal.

If you want to use protein powder use whey isolate that will have the least amount of lactose and also you can add some macadamia nut oil to that for fuel for fats.

Or toss down some fish oils and some EPO.


----------



## pastanchicken (Sep 29, 2008)

Nice post Hacks


----------



## Guest (Jun 22, 2009)

Nice post.

The problem with having a carb refeed every 4-5 days over a single carb meal every week is coming out of and going into ketosis affects every one to a different extent. For some people it would just be too painful while for others it would not be a problem.

Personally i think the keto diet is very out dated and the easy way out compared to a balanced calorie controlled diet.


----------



## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

My favorite diet is the zone 40/30/30, worked fantastic.

But to be fair in the zone I lost 1" for every 5 pounds of bodyweight, on a keto diet it was 4 pounds for every 1" of bodyweight.

So, looking at the numbers the keto diet appears to be better, but the smalls, and diet stalling week 6 can be of conciquence.

I personally feel that what ever diet you stick to and lose weight, then that is a good diet.

I have success with keto diets because they satisfy me better and allow me to have nice energy levels.


----------



## Jimmy1 (Aug 14, 2003)

calorie controled diets dont stop mad cravings...keto diets (once in full swing) leave me feeling satisfied all the time

once you hit keto...you feel awesome...but other diets i just feel moody, and lethergic


----------



## BigBiff (Sep 30, 2008)

Excellent post hacksii, your posts are so informative and helpful! ive been on my ketosis diet now for 3 months, just followed a simple one Pscarb did, i dont know if you've read my journal, but i thought the results were great! 

I tend to stay away from the carb up on weekends? I really should carb up mind as energy levels do worsen ive found if i dont carb up for the monday!

will save this information!

reps

james


----------



## Guest (Jun 22, 2009)

Jimmy said:


> calorie controled diets dont stop mad cravings...keto diets (once in full swing) leave me feeling satisfied all the time
> 
> once you hit keto...you feel awesome...but other diets i just feel moody, and lethergic


See this is where personal differences come in

On the ketogenic and i mean all out tested and i was in ketosis ext and i felt horrific but i did get very very lean along with some muscle loss.

Now lets say on my current diet which is some thing like 300p 110c less than 50f i feel overall fine sure i have periods of hunger but i feel so much better to have a few carbs in there.


----------



## B-GJOE (May 7, 2009)

Oh! look, a Keto diet thread that I'm not involved in.


----------



## liamhutch (Mar 25, 2008)

What are some of these low GI fruits?

And how much of it would be acceptable?


----------



## B-GJOE (May 7, 2009)

I personally wouldn't have fruit at all, just veggies.

The amount you can have is an individual thing, you'll have experiment.

It's hard to know when you are in ketosis or not, as ketostix are very unreliable.

Tweak a bit here and there, and see what results you get.

I was strictly no fruit or veg for ages, and was purple on my stix after about 48 hours from carb up. I've added lettuce, cucumber, peppers and onion to my diet, total carbs around 30g and now I never even get trace on the stix, not even on day 6. But my bodyfat is still dropping so I don't care what the stix say.


----------



## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

B|GJOE said:


> Oh! look, a Keto diet thread that I'm not involved in.


Thanks for your input mate.



liamhutch said:


> What are some of these low GI fruits?
> 
> And how much of it would be acceptable?


Well, all berries, peaches, small amounts of lemon, papaya, melons, apples, apricots, grapefruit.

The nice thing about fructose is it takes longer than other sugars to release into the blood, but then again they fill liver glycogen stores, which I think is like 70 grams if my memory serves me correctly.

But you have to be carefull with any carbs, but over time it makes sense to add them slowly.

Another thing I noticed it I can slip into ketosis faster than the first time I did it. 3 days of massive hunger first time, then each time after I can slip in and feel pretty damn good next day, by 2 days, I am not hungry.

But then again, I have low carb days anyway, and I dont have much trouble with that now days.

I think the body gets more used to it and can slip in and out of ketosis faster, but I cant prove that and this is just speculation on my part.


----------



## _Shaun_ (Mar 2, 2011)

I follow the diet guidelines of Vince Gironda, carbs are to be gradually cut out and then avoided entirely 'except' for every 4th or 5th day when you have to eat one carb meal.

Energy comes from healthy fats (egg yolk, cod liver oil etc).

To begin with I found this to be extremely difficult, having eaten carbs at least 3 times per day for years and years is not something that's easy to quit all at once.

I gradually reduced the amount and have now, finally, reached the point where I can last till day 4, then I have that one carb meal, I choose oats.

Gironda's methods are an extreme where you have to adopt them 100% or not bother - personally, I believe people who claim to have tried Vince's methods and claim they don't work are lying, I believe they have tried, found the entire process far too difficult, and quit, claiming the guy was full of bs.

Well, he's trained more champions than anyone else in the history of bodybuilding, in other words he knew a thing or two.

Personally, I'll never veer from his methods because although they're damn hard work, brutal even, they work - and until I adopted his approach I really wasn't getting anywhere.

I think another reason, diet aside, that Vince's methods are laughed at/ridiculed is because of the ego problem.

If you're in your local gym and you're decreasing rest intervals to 5 seconds between sets, the amount of weight you are lifting is going to be very small indeed - so other gym members are going to find that funny, in their ignorance.

That, I believe, is one of the main reasons why his routines aren't practiced as much as they otherwise might be.

Which is a shame, because people are missing out on some amazing gains in a very short space of time.


----------



## Andrew Jacks (Sep 29, 2010)

I always feel it best to skip the first cheat and keep the keto running for two weeks before having a Carb up.


----------



## EricTheViking (Nov 23, 2010)

I have had good results on a ketogenic diet without a re-feed and just cheating now and again like when going out. However, I found that my body suddenly became really intolerant to some foods after being on keto diet for a while. Like if I went for a curry my stomach would be churning i'd feel gassy and bloated and irritaed and be constantly on the bog. This never happened before i started keto. Still, it's a great diet if you can stick to it.

they were also saying Bodybuiling forum that you can bulk on it too if you have the calories from fat high enough.


----------



## C.Hill (Nov 21, 2010)

Very informative thread.


----------



## _Shaun_ (Mar 2, 2011)

Cutting out carbs is like quitting smoking, at first your body complains but after a while it settles down.

I didn't (couldn't) quit all carbs straight away, I cut down to one carb meal a day, then one every 2 days, one every 3 days, and now I'm pretty much into the routine of one every 4th day.

Gironda said the one carb meal every 4th or 5th day was important to stop you 'smoothing out' as well as stopping you feeling jittery.

These extreme methods always get slagged off - mostly by people who don't have the grit to see them through, but if you stick with it you'll see great results.

Also the guy who said you can build while on a Keto diet is right, providing your healthy fat intake is high and you train with intensity (short rest intervals between sets) you'll grow muscle while dropping fat.


----------



## Hendrix (Sep 16, 2009)

Great thread, my synapse are firing like an Uzi 9mm


----------



## kernowgee (Jan 30, 2011)

Crispy seaweed (bok choy) is my fav on the keto

Oh BTW check that soy sauce does not contain sugar


----------



## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

EricTheViking said:


> I have had good results on a ketogenic diet without a re-feed and just cheating now and again like when going out. However, I found that my body suddenly became really intolerant to some foods after being on keto diet for a while. Like if I went for a curry my stomach would be churning i'd feel gassy and bloated and irritaed and be constantly on the bog. This never happened before i started keto. Still, it's a great diet if you can stick to it.
> 
> they were also saying Bodybuiling forum that you can bulk on it too if you have the calories from fat high enough.


That is because your body was not used to using carbs, if you ate an apple or something simple you would have not had this problem.


----------



## EricTheViking (Nov 23, 2010)

hackskii said:


> That is because your body was not used to using carbs, if you ate an apple or something simple you would have not had this problem.


Yes but on a night out to a curry house i'm not going to eat an apple instead of a curry.


----------



## C.Hill (Nov 21, 2010)

hackskii said:


> That is because your body was not used to using carbs, if you ate an apple or something simple you would have not had this problem.


 Do you mean daily for example or just once a week during carb-up?


----------



## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Problem is you are used to burning fats, and once you switch to a cheat meal of carbs stuff like breads and processed foods might cause some digestion issues.

If you were though to take some digestive enzymes that meal would digest easier and give you more bang for your buck.

Another problem with keto diets is constipation, I always add good fats, pro-biotics and digestive enzymes, some vegetable fibers are a good idea as well.

I think Dave Polumbo uses psyllium seed in his diets.

That is good, but you need lots of water too.


----------



## EssexMalRider (Apr 23, 2010)

kernowgee said:


> Crispy seaweed (bok choy) is my fav on the keto
> 
> Oh BTW check that soy sauce does not contain sugar


Crispy seaweed and bok choy are 2 different things.


----------



## Hendrix (Sep 16, 2009)

What happens to cholesterol on a Keto diet. Never tried, so never really needed to research, but now i'm rapidly aproaching 40, this year may give it a go.

With all the saturated fat what happens to LDL cholesterol, i assume it will not be affected to danger levels?

I always wondered how people can get away with eating tons of cream, red meat, fat, etc. Could google it i guess, but i'm here now and trust you peoples opinions more.


----------



## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

It actually lowers cholesterol.

Saturated fats are necessary in diets, I would worry more about triglycerides from carbs than lipids from fats.

The connection is just not there.

Some snips

Framingham Heart Study

"In Framingham, Mass, the more saturated fat one ate, the more cholesterol one ate, the more calories one ate, the lower the person's serum cholesterol. . . we found that the people who ate the most cholesterol, ate the most saturated fat, ate the most calories, weighed the least and were the most physically active."3 The study did show that those who weighed more and had abnormally high blood cholesterol levels were slightly more at risk for future heart disease; but weight gain and cholesterol levels had an inverse correlation with fat and cholesterol intake in the diet.4

In a multi-year British study involving several thousand men, half were asked to reduce saturated fat and cholesterol in their diets, to stop smoking and to increase the amounts of unsaturated oils such as margarine and vegetable oils. After one year, those on the "good" diet had 100% more deaths than those on the "bad" diet, in spite of the fact that those men on the "bad" diet continued to smoke! But in describing the study, the author ignored these results in favor of the politically correct conclusion: "The implication for public health policy in the U.K. is that a preventive programme such as we evaluated in this trial is probably effective. . .


----------



## _Shaun_ (Mar 2, 2011)

The problem is that most people believe eating any kind of fat is a bad idea.

They think eating eggs will send their cholesterol levels through the roof and give them heart attacks.

If they took a few hours and did their research they'd learn that eating eggs actually reduces cholesterol levels.

They avoid nutrient dense foods and stuff their faces with carbs in the belief they're eating healthily.

I shouldn't laugh but.......lol


----------



## Hendrix (Sep 16, 2009)

Fascinating stuff, thanks


----------



## xeonedbody (Aug 28, 2009)

hackskii, whats you're view on supplements that can help in reaching ketosis sooner after carb ups?

I've been reading up on Alpha Lipoic Acid (ALA) and it seems that its a glucose disposal agent, anti oxidant etc and helps people get back into ketosis much sooner than they would without any supplements...was hopin to hear your views on this please?


----------



## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Probably the best thing to get you back into ketosis is limit the carbs and up the fats.

Atkins recommended a multivitamin and fish oils.


----------



## Nikon1149 (Mar 5, 2011)

I'm wondering about what kind of training programs you should follow on a keto diet. I am relatively new to weights training, only 3-4 months of proper consistency. Despite being an ectomorph i've managed to get myself a beergut from too much partying which i'd really like to lean out considerably before continuing to pursue bulking with conviction. I currently train full body 3 days per week. You mentioned two cheat meals at the end of the 5th day, but that makes me worry about glycogen depletion in the muscles during any workout that isn't right after your cheat meals, is this still ok and lean weight should be retained ok?

Should I alter my workouts to less days/volume? Cheating every 5 days is a weird time scale to work with, cheating every 7 days would fit far easier with work with when training mon/wed/fri like I do. Could you offer some advice on how/when to train in relation to carb up to retain as much lean mass as possible?

Much appreciated


----------



## kernowgee (Jan 30, 2011)

Needs to be made a sticky


----------



## SisterPsychosis (Dec 27, 2010)

kernowgee said:


> Needs to be made a sticky


I would agree, if the info it contained was correct; unfortunately it isn't. We *DO NOT* require supplementary O6 and O9 as we get more than enough from dietary sources (especially if we consume a great deal of dairy, grains, legumes and pulses). The only *ESSENTIAL* omega is O3.


----------



## marty0 (Jan 21, 2018)

Hi,

I am new to this forum. I am hoping someone well versed in the Keto diet can assist me. I need to work out to grams what I need of Fats, Protein, and Carbs. I have chosen the Keto diet purely for health reasons. I'd be very grateful for any help.


----------



## superdrol (Aug 9, 2012)

marty0 said:


> Hi,
> 
> I am new to this forum. I am hoping someone well versed in the Keto diet can assist me. I need to work out to grams what I need of Fats, Protein, and Carbs. I have chosen the Keto diet purely for health reasons. I'd be very grateful for any help.


 I'd start a thread in the diet section rather than bumping a 7yr old thread bud


----------



## marty0 (Jan 21, 2018)

superdrol said:


> I'd start a thread in the diet section rather than bumping a 7yr old thread bud


 Thanks superdrol - thicko me


----------

