# BNP vs OHP?



## ishadow (Sep 13, 2017)

Hi gents,

Recently changed my push routine to do behind the neck press instead of the normal over head press. Enjoying it, managed 3 sets of 9 at 45kg the other day.

What are people's thought between the 2?

My thinking was my front delts get hit hard while doing chest before I love onto the shoulder movements, so behind the neck press would work more of the overall shoulder instead of the front.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

The downside of behind the neck pressing is the increased injury risk.

Front delts are indeed worked well by chest pressing so I actually don't do any sort of overhead press, relying on lateral raises for side delts instead. I could be wrong but I think I remember @dtlv saying his did something similar. Just a different option to consider.


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## Jordan08 (Feb 17, 2014)

Behind the neck press put a lot of stress on rotators for many. Do it and see if you are made for this exercise or not. It mainly targets the rear delts i believe and there are far better and safer option for hitting rear delts IMO.


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## ishadow (Sep 13, 2017)

Ultrasonic said:


> The downside of behind the neck pressing is the increased injury risk.
> 
> Front delts are indeed worked well by chest pressing so I actually don't do any sort of overhead press, relying on lateral raises for side delts instead. I could be wrong but I think I remember @dtlv saying his did something similar. Just a different option to consider.


 At the moment I'm doing

- Behind neck press

And then

- Side laterals

- front laterals

And then the following push session

- Behind neck press

And then

- up right rows

- cable side laterals



Jordan08 said:


> Behind the neck press put a lot of stress on rotators for many. Do it and see if you are made for this exercise or not. It mainly targets the rear delts i believe and there are far better and safer option for hitting rear delts IMO.


 Yeah doesn't feel too bad at the moment, I'm not that flexible but managing to get down where I'm about 2-3 inches from the bar touching my traps/neck


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Two quick thoughts on the above are what is a 'front lateral' and do you do a rear delt exercise with back/pull work?


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## ishadow (Sep 13, 2017)

Ultrasonic said:


> Two quick thoughts on the above are what is a 'front lateral' and do you do a rear delt exercise with back/pull work?


 Front lateral raises - Guess that itself is very front delt.

Yeah I do rear delt flies after my back and bicep exersies, before i do my deadlifts


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

ishadow said:


> Front lateral raises - Guess that itself is very front delt.


 I think you just mean a front raise. If it's what I'm picturing there is no lateral element to it. Not an exercise I'd be doing myself, and most tend to advise against on the basis that pretty much no one who does pressing exercises for chest has underdeveloped front delts.


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## ishadow (Sep 13, 2017)

Ultrasonic said:


> I think you just mean a front raise. If it's what I'm picturing there is no lateral element to it. Not an exercise I'd be doing myself, and most tend to advise against on the basis that pretty much no one who does pressing exercises for chest has underdeveloped front delts.


 Yeah that's true, no idea why I've got lateral stuck in my head as it's not a side way movement.

Yeah I see your point, was something I was trying out as I've never really done them before.


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## ishadow (Sep 13, 2017)

Don't think my front delts are too bad


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## arbffgadm100 (Jun 3, 2016)

I just BB OHP. Don't see the need for anything else, especially if you do some sort of horizontal pulling work (low pulley row, for example).


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Indeed, so maybe drop the front raises to put more work into the side and rear delts?

Edit: was referring to your front delts not lagging.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

arbffgadm100 said:


> I just BB OHP. Don't see the need for anything else, especially if you do some sort of horizontal pulling work (low pulley row, for example).


 The reason is that an OHP works the front delts more than the laterals and pulling exercises work the rears mostly. Something that prioritises the side delts therefore makes sense to me (and plenty of others).


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## ishadow (Sep 13, 2017)

Ultrasonic said:


> Indeed, so maybe drop the front raises to put more work into the side and rear delts?
> 
> Edit: was referring to your front delts not lagging.


 Is they anything you would advise pal?

My current routine is;

- Flat bench bench

- incline dumbbell press

- Either machine chest flies or cable flies

- Behind neck press

- Side laterals or upright rows

- Front raises or single arm cable lateral

- Dips or push downs

- close grip bench or overhead cable tri extensions

(I change my assistant movements each workout but keep the main Chest flat bench, incline dumbbells and BNP the same)


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## ishadow (Sep 13, 2017)

Bit of an old picture of my back, 2-3 months ago and I'm about 2 stone heavier now, but a rough idea how my rear delts are


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## arbffgadm100 (Jun 3, 2016)

Ultrasonic said:


> The reason is that an OHP works the front delts more than the laterals and pulling exercises work the rears mostly. Something that prioritises the side delts therefore makes sense to me (and plenty of others).


 I strongly disagree that your lateral delts are not worked very hard in an OHP, especially if you make sure that you 'shrug' the bar up at the top of the ROM (at the point of maximal shoulder flexion).


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## Jordan08 (Feb 17, 2014)

arbffgadm100 said:


> I strongly disagree that your lateral delts are not worked very hard in an OHP, especially if you make sure that you 'shrug' the bar up at the top of the ROM (at the point of maximal shoulder flexion).


 EMG activation suggest that only 24 % of the lateral delts worked on OHP's


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## arbffgadm100 (Jun 3, 2016)

Jordan08 said:


> EMG activation suggest that only 24 % of the lateral delts worked on OHP's


 And?

EMG activation is higher in the glutes from BB glute raises than in BB squats (see; anything written by "Brett The Glute Guy", ever), and for quads/hams in leg extensions/curls/sprinting over squats, but I don't see anyone recommending you base your leg day around glute raises and leg extensions and a few sprints.

If the OP was OHPing 100kg, fair enough. However, my personal opinion is that (as respectfully and politely as possible...) he would get a lot more out of focusing on increasing his main pressing lift/s than worrying about which exercise selection of isolations he is going to use.

Anecdotally, I have decent delts and have never done any isolations for them. I also have massive traps and apart from deadlifting haven't ever "worked" them. I'm not against isolation work, I just think that there's a lot more value to be got out of maximising your adaptation to the main lifts before you worry about anything else.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

arbffgadm100 said:


> I strongly disagree that your lateral delts are not worked very hard in an OHP, especially if you make sure that you 'shrug' the bar up at the top of the ROM (at the point of maximal shoulder flexion).


 That isn't actually what I said. What I said is that the front delts are worked more than the side delts by overhead pressing.

Where I come from is that chest pressing means the front delts already get loads of work so what you want are additional exercises that work the side delts more than the front delts, or you're only going to make the likely imbalance worse.

Not telling you that you need to change what you're doing if you're happy.


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## arbffgadm100 (Jun 3, 2016)

Ultrasonic said:


> That isn't actually what I said. What I said is that the front delts are worked more than the side delts by overhead pressing.
> 
> Where I come from is that chest pressing means the front delts already get loads of work so what you want are additional exercises that work the side delts more than the front delts, or you'll only going to make the likely imbalance worse.
> 
> Not telling you that you need to change what you're doing if you're happy.


 I would suggest what he needs is more focus on horizontal (and possibly vertical) pulling, if he's doing two forms of pressing compound movement, rather than some lateral raises, but fair enough. Each to their own. Forums are to share opinions, so we have laid out our arguments and now it's on the OP to decide what he does.


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## Pancake' (Aug 30, 2012)

ishadow said:


> Hi gents,
> 
> Recently changed my push routine to do behind the neck press instead of the normal over head press. Enjoying it, managed 3 sets of 9 at 45kg the other day.
> 
> ...


 BNP is the best press for recruitment of all 3 deltoids and a good trap builder. but it will fcuk you up, you have to get the ROM just right, I tried to go against the grain, because I know how affective it is of an exercise. I then developed the worst shoulder impingement I have ever had, I'll never go near it again. Stick to the standard military and push press, you will still get a lot of activation, just not as much. trap+rear delt engagement.



Ultrasonic said:


> The downside of behind the neck pressing is the increased injury risk.
> 
> Front delts are indeed worked well by chest pressing so I actually don't do any sort of overhead press, relying on lateral raises for side delts instead. I could be wrong but I think I remember @dtlv saying his did something similar. Just a different option to consider.


 This is a bad outlook to have imo. benching compared to the press, just don't compare, the standing press is a important exercise for overall strength, development, athleticism. given you're natty too, this is certainly an exercise you will want to include. It does more than you might think, it is 1 of few exercises that will improve punching power. If I could choose 1 upper body barbell movement, it would be ohp.

Remember a strong press equals a strong bench, but a strong bench doesn't equal a strong press.


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## Jack of blades (Apr 2, 2017)

Ultrasonic said:


> The downside of behind the neck pressing is the increased injury risk.
> 
> Front delts are indeed worked well by chest pressing so I actually don't do any sort of overhead press, relying on lateral raises for side delts instead. I could be wrong but I think I remember @dtlv saying his did something similar. Just a different option to consider.


 2nd that iv had so many upper back injuries due to behind the neck press. I do do them regardless but it's the most careful exercise that I do


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Pancake' said:


> This is a bad outlook to have imo. benching compared to the press, just don't compare, the standing press is a important exercise for overall strength, development, athleticism. given you're natty too, this is certainly an exercise you will want to include. It does more than you might think, it is 1 of few exercises that will improve punching power. If I could choose 1 upper body barbell movement, it would be ohp.
> 
> Remember a strong press equals a strong bench, but a strong bench doesn't equal a strong press.


 A standing press is actually something I haven't been able to do for years due to training in rooms where the ceiling wasn't high enough. I guess it probably is an option in the garage I train in now though. I may try some at some point for a bit of variety but I remain unconvinced they really fit with my goals.

FWIW I have zero interest in improving punching power though - don't think I've deliberately hit anyone since I was about 13 :lol: .


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## Pancake' (Aug 30, 2012)

Ultrasonic said:


> A standing press is actually something I haven't been able to do for years due to training in rooms where the ceiling wasn't high enough. I guess it probably is an option in the garage I train in now though. I may try some at some point for a bit of variety *but I remain unconvinced they really fit with my goals.*
> 
> FWIW I have zero interest in improving punching power though - don't think I've deliberately hit anyone since I was about 13 :lol: .


 https://barbend.com/overhead-press-benefits/

But you'll fanny about with raises? :lol: getting strong on it, will transform a upper body. period.


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## ishadow (Sep 13, 2017)

Pancake' said:


> https://barbend.com/overhead-press-benefits/
> 
> But you'll fanny about with raises? :lol: getting strong on it, will transform a upper body. period.


 It's slowly getting there... can managed 3x9 at 50kg OHP.

Aiming for 47.5kg 3x9 on behind the neck press tomorrow (fingers crossed)


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Pancake' said:


> https://barbend.com/overhead-press-benefits/
> 
> But you'll fanny about with raises? :lol: getting strong on it, will transform a upper body. period.


 I do lateral raises laying on my side on an incline, which puts tension on the side delt through the whole ROM. Think it was DarkSim who I first saw suggest this. Either way I've definitely made size and strength gains from lateral raises, done 3 times per week. If that is fanning about then so be it  .


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## ishadow (Sep 13, 2017)

Ultrasonic said:


> I do lateral raises laying on my side on an incline, which puts tension on the side delt through the whole ROM. Think it was DarkSim who I first saw suggest this. Either way I've definitely made size and strength gains from lateral raises, done 3 times per week. If that is fanning about then so be it  .


 Something like these?


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

ishadow said:


> Something like these?
> 
> View attachment 160773


 No, laying on my side not my front. One arm at a time.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Cables are another way to get tension through more of the ROM than a traditional standing lateral raise. Jeff Nippard suggests doing them leaning slightly away from the machine IIRC.


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## ishadow (Sep 13, 2017)

Ultrasonic said:


> No, laying on my side not my front. One arm at a time.


 Ahhh like this?


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

ishadow said:


> Ahhh like this?
> 
> View attachment 160775


 Pretty much. I actually do them lying on my stairs so I'm more stable than he looks  . I also don't rotate the dumbbell at the top.


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## Jack of blades (Apr 2, 2017)

ishadow said:


> Something like these?
> 
> View attachment 160773


 This is probably the only exercise that Iv never done


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## Jack of blades (Apr 2, 2017)

ishadow said:


> Bit of an old picture of my back, 2-3 months ago and I'm about 2 stone heavier now, but a rough idea how my rear delts are
> 
> View attachment 160767


 Your 2 stone heavier than you were 2 or 3 months ago


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## Pancake' (Aug 30, 2012)

Ultrasonic said:


> I do lateral raises laying on my side on an incline, which puts tension on the side delt through the whole ROM. Think it was DarkSim who I first saw suggest this. Either way I've definitely made size and strength gains from lateral raises, done 3 times per week. If that is fanning about then so be it  .


 Darksim is a competitive bodybuilder who's on, he'll respond to any kind of raise as anyone would, who has increased androgen receptor regulation of the muscle. especially being shoulders.

If you haven't already, get a minimum 60kg strict military press, no leg drive, bar start from chest for 3 sets of 15 with full lockout. not only will your delts improve, but trapz, triceps and chest massively. OHP>Bench everytime imo.

Only way to get big natty is getting strong on the big lifts. you might think you've made gains doing raises, and you may of, but it's likely just some temporary muscle fullness/retention. more so likely, if you're not a strong presser. just food for thought.


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## swole troll (Apr 15, 2015)

Pancake' said:


> Darksim is a competitive bodybuilder who's on, he'll respond to any kind of raise as anyone would, who has increased androgen receptor regulation of the muscle. especially being shoulders.
> 
> If you haven't already, get a minimum 60kg strict military press, no leg drive, bar start from chest for 3 sets of 15 with full lockout. not only will your delts improve, but trapz, triceps and chest massively. OHP>Bench everytime imo.
> 
> Only way to get big natty is getting strong on the big lifts. you might think you've made gains doing raises, and you may of, but it's likely just some temporary muscle fullness/retention. more so likely, if you're not a strong presser. just food for thought.


 this

get a big ohp and your delts will be swole

all i do is OHP year round

and side laterals maybe 6 months of the year

front delts are done when benching and rear delts ill isolate when i can be assed to


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Pancake' said:


> Only way to get big natty is getting strong on the big lifts. you might think you've made gains doing raises, and you may of, but it's likely just some temporary muscle fullness/retention. more so likely, if you're not a strong presser. just food for thought.


 Not surprisingly I disagree.

Lateral raises optimally target the side delts as far as I'm concerned, and allow them to be trained over the full ROM with the modification I mentioned, or by using cables. I don't really know how their usefulness can be debated to be honest. The only other exercise I can think of that might not preferentially work the front delts are upright rows but for me lateral raises are better as they don't have the same potential shoulder impingement issue.

As for only getting 'some temporary muscle fullness/retention' I'm sorry but that's just nonsense. Like any muscle, progressively overloading side delts with lateral raises will make them bigger and stronger. There is no plausible explanation for why this would not be the case.

I do loads of compound exercises but the inclusion of some isolation work for side delts, rear delts, biceps and triceps makes as much sense to me natty as assisted.

Not expecting to change your mind of course  .


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## Pancake' (Aug 30, 2012)

Ultrasonic said:


> Not surprisingly I disagree.
> 
> Lateral raises optimally target the side delts as far as I'm concerned, and allow them to be trained over the full ROM with the modification I mentioned, or by using cables. I don't really know how their usefulness can be debated to be honest. The only other exercise I can think of that might not preferentially work the front delts are upright rows but for me lateral raises are better as they don't have the same potential shoulder impingement issue.
> 
> ...


 Don't lift for a week or two, see how they appear.  I think they're a great exercise and a must for maximising shoulder development, but you can't progress pump. you can't overload a raise like a press. the difference is night&day in terms of muscle growth both will offer. you might as well compare a leg extension to a squat.

How much can you really progressively overload a lateral raise though? are you raising 25kgs with strict concentrated form? I doubt, I know monsterous folk in terms of muscle mass and they're only throwing 20kgs about... yet press 2 plates like it's one.

It's the equivalent of having an arm day and pumping your arms up, you maintain that fullness and retention within the muscle for a while, but muscle built with pump and volume doesn't stick compared to reaching a strength milestone. each to their own, I like raises, but cannot fathom the idea of performing them 3x a week, with no ohp involved. they're a capping like exercise. not particularly a mass builder.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Pancake' said:


> Don't lift for a week or two, see how they appear.  I think they're a great exercise and a must for maximising shoulder development, but you can't progress pump. you can't overload a raise like a press. the difference is night&day in terms of muscle growth both will offer. you might as well compare a leg extension to a squat.
> 
> How much can you really progressively overload a lateral raise though? are you raising 25kgs with strict concentrated form? I doubt, I know monsterous folk in terms of muscle mass and they're only throwing 20kgs about... yet press 2 plates like it's one.
> 
> It's the equivalent of having an arm day and pumping your arms up, you maintain that fullness and retention within the muscle for a while, but muscle built with pump and volume doesn't stick compared to reaching a strength milestone. each to their own, I like raises, but cannot fathom the idea of performing them 3x a week, with no ohp involved. they're a capping like exercise. not particularly a mass builder.


 I have been training long enough to understand the difference between a pump and muscle growth  . I shouldn't have to say this but feel I have to - my side delts have got stronger by using lateral raises. Oh, and I don't do pump style training with lateral raises - I do a mix of 8-10 rep sets one day per week and 12-15 rep sets on the other two days.

The force needed to be generated by the muscle is what matters, not the physical weight lifted. Yes I use lighter dumbbells for lateral raises than I would for say shoulder presses, but the weight is at the end of a much longer lever arm, and there are fewer muscles sharing the load. Shoulder presses just flat out aren't an alternative exercise for the point of view of developing the side delts though, so the comparison isn't really relevant.

Don't get me wrong, overhead presses are a great front delt exercise. They're just not good for trying to preferentially develop the side delts, which is what I do lateral raises for.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

A different view on the general topic here:


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## Pancake' (Aug 30, 2012)

Ultrasonic said:


> I have been training long enough to understand the difference between a pump and muscle growth  . I shouldn't have to say this but feel I have to - my side delts have got stronger by using lateral raises. Oh, and I don't do pump style training with lateral raises - I do a mix of 8-10 rep sets one day per week and 12-15 rep sets on the other two days.
> 
> The force needed to be generated by the muscle is what matters, not the physical weight lifted. Yes I use lighter dumbbells for lateral raises than I would for say shoulder presses, but the weight is at the end of a much longer lever arm, and there are fewer muscles sharing the load. Shoulder presses just flat out aren't an alternative exercise for the point of view of developing the side delts though, so the comparison isn't really relevant.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, overhead presses are a great front delt exercise. They're just not good for trying to preferentially develop the side delts, which is what I do lateral raises for.


 You're too easy man, haha :lol:


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## Jordan08 (Feb 17, 2014)

arbffgadm100 said:


> And?
> 
> EMG activation is higher in the glutes from BB glute raises than in BB squats (see; anything written by "Brett The Glute Guy", ever), and for quads/hams in leg extensions/curls/sprinting over squats, but I don't see anyone recommending you base your leg day around glute raises and leg extensions and a few sprints.
> 
> ...


 OHP = Strong Shoulders

OHP + Lateral raises = Strong + Big Shoulders

OHP + Lateral raises + Face pulls = Strong + Big shoulders + Healthy shoulders

All above in my experience. If you haven't done any isolation movement for shoulders then may be add and see how much of a difference they can bring on table, provided hypertrophy is your goal.

Adding lateral raises has done great changes for me personally.


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## ishadow (Sep 13, 2017)

Jack of blades said:


> Your 2 stone heavier than you were 2 or 3 months ago


 Yeah that photo was when I was cutting, got to about 11st at 13% BF.

I'm now just under 13st at about 17% bf


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## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

I recently fvxked my shoulder doing behind the neck presses and pull-downs and had to have three months off the gym.... I definitely don't do them anymore.

Presses I do shouldet width apart front press and reverse grip pull-downs


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## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

Pancake' said:


> https://barbend.com/overhead-press-benefits/
> 
> But you'll fanny about with raises? :lol: getting strong on it, will transform a upper body. period.


 Raises are my primary delt exercises. I do one press movement and 3 for lateral raises... I've got good shoulders


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## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)




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## Pancake' (Aug 30, 2012)

FelonE said:


> Raises are my primary delt exercises. I do one press movement and 3 for lateral raises... I've got good shoulders


 http://nattyornot.com/the-shoulders-of-natural-vs-the-shoulders-of-steroid-users/

Not taking away the training or diet aspect completely. But as you posted above, you've got the nasty 3D delt appearance. great nick btw.


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## superpube (Feb 18, 2015)

FelonE said:


> View attachment 160825


 How did you fart blue?


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## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

superpube said:


> How did you fart blue?


 Was just before I took off.... Hidden jet pack


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Pancake' said:


> http://nattyornot.com/the-shoulders-of-natural-vs-the-shoulders-of-steroid-users/
> 
> Not taking away the training or diet aspect completely. But as you posted above, you've got the nasty 3D delt appearance. great nick btw.


 Is the androgen receptor density significant different between the front and side delts? If not I don't really see why we need to make a natty vs assisted distinction here. Plus the OP is probably assisted anyway.


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## Pancake' (Aug 30, 2012)

Ultrasonic said:


> Is the androgen receptor density significant different between the front and side delts? If not I don't really see why we need to make a natty vs assisted distinction here. Plus the OP is probably assisted anyway.


 I don't specifically know, I doubt significantly, but I would think the side delt is higher in receptors, after all, it's what tends to look the freakiest, striated etc. well yes, when you have "I've good shoulders bro" claims, unaware, that it's peds playing the biggest role in them looking as capped and grainy as they do and not so much the choice of exercise selection.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Pancake' said:


> I don't specifically know, I doubt significantly, but I would think the side delt is higher in receptors, after all, it's what tends to look the freakiest, striated etc. well yes, when you have "I've good shoulders bro" claims, unaware, that it's peds playing the biggest role in them looking as capped and grainy as they do and not so much the choice of exercise selection.


 I've always thought it was just that the delts were bigger in all directions but what is most noticeable is the extra width from side delt development. Or at least what is most noticeable when just standing normally rather than say in a back double bicep pose.

A reason I do put particular effort into side delts is precisely because I do think this is more noticeable, but maybe it's just something I look at!


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## Pancake' (Aug 30, 2012)

Ultrasonic said:


> I've always thought it was just that the delts were bigger in all directions but what is most noticeable is the extra width from side delt development. Or at least what is most noticeable when just standing normally rather than say in a back double bicep pose.
> 
> A reason I do put particular effort into side delts is precisely because I do think this is more noticeable, but maybe it's just something I look at!


 If you're running something like tren, likely all 3 will be greatly pronounced, link I posted explains things quiet well. Is what it is, shoulders prominent in AR, but I know what you mean, side specifically gets way too pronounced, even when relaxed.

Google "Jake de Bruyn" great example of this. honestly, a side of raises 3x week (good addition), consider just remaining loyal to ohp, because nattywise, you're only real hope of maximising shoulder development is a strong ohp. even then, you still won't ever come close to that comic book look, but they'll be big and round for sure.

you won't lose that slight slight temporary fullness you would get from high frequency raises.  I guarantee shoulders be one first thing you notice to shrink, if you take a 2week vacation, providing you mainly rely on raises. this wouldn't happen as much with a strong press behind you. focus on the bigger picture here, cart before horse, so to speak.

I like raises to compliment presses, I don't so much view isolating shoulders per say, I concentrate on just getting them stronger to grow bigger. I know ohp is king and a raise will make them look more sexier. rear delt wise, lots of rowing and dead hang pull ups balanced all 3, I have rarely ever performed rear delt raises.


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## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

Pancake' said:


> I don't specifically know, I doubt significantly, but I would think the side delt is higher in receptors, after all, it's what tends to look the freakiest, striated etc. well yes, when you have "I've good shoulders bro" claims, unaware, that it's peds playing the biggest role in them looking as capped and grainy as they do and not so much the choice of exercise selection.


 So if i didn't hammer lateral raises in many different ways they'd still look like that? I've trained them to look like that specifically


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## Pancake' (Aug 30, 2012)

FelonE said:


> So if i didn't hammer lateral raises in many different ways they'd still look like that? I've trained them to look like that specifically


 No. They probably wouldn't, but they would be more pronounced and capped looking regardless if you didn't.


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## Jack of blades (Apr 2, 2017)

At the end of the day all you need to do is shoulder press that's it you'll get all the area of shoulder trained that way. Infact you can get a portion of your shoulders trained in benching


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## Jack of blades (Apr 2, 2017)

Ultrasonic said:


> Not surprisingly I disagree.
> 
> Lateral raises optimally target the side delts as far as I'm concerned, and allow them to be trained over the full ROM with the modification I mentioned, or by using cables. I don't really know how their usefulness can be debated to be honest. The only other exercise I can think of that might not preferentially work the front delts are upright rows but for me lateral raises are better as they don't have the same potential shoulder impingement issue.
> 
> ...


 What he said had some truth in it. As a natural your aim is to be strong in big lifts. It's hard to grow just doing isolated moves. I to like you do compounds and isolation moves. There was a time where for about 6 years I didn't do any biceps curls the only thing I did that trained my biceps were deadlifting and pull-ups and yet they had no problem in getting big


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Jack of blades said:


> At the end of the day all you need to do is shoulder press that's it you'll get all the area of shoulder trained that way. *Infact you can get a portion of your shoulders trained in benching*


 The latter is why I discouraged the OP from doing front raises. Chest press exercises work the front delts significantly, and to a lesser extent the side delts, similar to how overhead pressing works the front delts more. This is precisely why I strongly believe that everyone would benefit from additional work focused on the side delts, you included. I say this for shoulder health as well as pure aesthetics.



Jack of blades said:


> What he said had some truth in it. As a natural your aim is to be strong in big lifts. It's hard to grow just doing isolated moves. I to like you do compounds and isolation moves. There was a time where for about 6 years I didn't do any biceps curls the only thing I did that trained my biceps were deadlifting and pull-ups and yet they had no problem in getting big


 Sure - I do far more compound lifts than isolation moves. I have though made better progress since adding in more isolation work rather than pretty much exclusively relying on compounds as I used to.

I have done seated barbell and dumbbell shoulder presses in the past but not for a long time now. Something like 15 years ago I caused some sort of back spasm doing a seated barbell press actually, and ended up seeing a physio because of it. I also went through years of sporadic training with a niggling shoulder injury, which I'm not sure if I originally caused by overhead pressing or chest dips (or a combination), although it was exacerbated by a fall. As a result though overhead pressing was a problematic exercise for a long time and so not one I was fond of for this reason. My shoulder seems fine now but I wouldn't rule out causing an issue again if I went back to overhead pressing. But as I really don't feel I'm missing out by not doing so I don't see any reason to risk it.

Just expanding slightly on my situation. I'm in no way saying that nobody should do overhead pressing!


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## Pancake' (Aug 30, 2012)

Ultrasonic said:


> The latter is why I discouraged the OP from doing front raises. Chest press exercises work the front delts significantly, and to a lesser extent the side delts, similar to how overhead pressing works the front delts more. This is precisely why I strongly believe that everyone would benefit from additional work focused on the side delts, you included. I say this for shoulder health as well as pure aesthetics.
> 
> Sure - I do far more compound lifts than isolation moves. I have though made better progress since adding in more isolation work rather than pretty much exclusively relying on compounds as I used to.
> 
> ...


 Hey yo Ultrasonic,

suck on this






Say what you will, but his training knowledge is accurate imo.


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## 19072 (Aug 11, 2010)

I hit shoulders once a week and believe all you need is 1heavy compound (strict/push press) and 1isolation (side laterals)

I tend to throw rear face pulls in for healthy shoulders mobility on back day

for someone who trains in strength I'd say my pressing strength has given me good thick shoulders.


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## swole troll (Apr 15, 2015)

herc said:


> I hit shoulders once a week and believe all you need is 1heavy compound (strict/push press) and 1isolation (side laterals)
> 
> I tend to throw rear face pulls in for healthy shoulders mobility on back day
> 
> for someone who trains in strength I'd say my pressing strength has given me good thick shoulders.


 this

ohp, side laterals, done

benching will do more than enough for anterior delts

EDIT - i already posted ITT and was basically the exact same as i just have now

im going nuts, spending too much time on here


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## Smitch (Dec 29, 2008)

herc said:


> I hit shoulders once a week and believe all you need is 1heavy compound (strict/push press) and 1isolation (side laterals)
> 
> I tend to throw rear face pulls in for healthy shoulders mobility on back day
> 
> for someone who trains in strength I'd say my pressing strength has given me good thick shoulders.


 Heavy OHP along with light high rep side laterals and light high rep face pulls is all I've ever done too. I find that strict light side laterals are better than throwing up heavy ones with awful form as when i go heavy i tend to bring my traps into the movement and not the delt.

I've always has fairly decent shoulders, not sure if it's genetic, but I do a lot less shoulder work than a lot of people I see and my delts have always responded well to what I do. I've always done heavy flat Benching too which seems to be a common theme for guys with decent delts.


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## 19072 (Aug 11, 2010)

Smitch said:


> Heavy OHP along with light high rep side laterals and light high rep face pulls is all I've ever done too. I find that strict light side laterals are better than throwing up heavy ones with awful form as when i go heavy i tend to bring my traps into the movement and not the delt.
> 
> I've always has fairly decent shoulders, not sure if it's genetic, but I do a lot less shoulder work than a lot of people I see and my delts have always responded well to what I do. I've always done heavy flat Benching too which seems to be a common theme for guys with decent delts.


 Yep like wise I do push Day once a week which is heavy bench followed by heavy push press then cgbp. Then each muscle gets one isolation/high rep exercise (inc db, side laterals and skull crushers)

my shoulders are probably one good body part in regards with size and strength (push press 115kg at 84kg weight)


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## nWo (Mar 25, 2014)

arbffgadm100 said:


> And?
> 
> EMG activation is higher in the glutes from BB glute raises than in BB squats (see; anything written by "Brett The Glute Guy", ever), and for quads/hams in leg extensions/curls/sprinting over squats, but I don't see anyone recommending you base your leg day around glute raises and leg extensions and a few sprints.
> 
> ...


 You could theoretically build a great physique on isolations alone. Muscle activation has a lot to do with hypertrophy. The reason we don't use these as our sole exercises and why routines are commonly based around compounds, though, is that it's hard to maintain progressive overload with most isolations, whilst compound movements lend themselves to it, and progressive overload is of course a major factor in the hypertrophy signalling process. So a combination of heavy compounds and moderate-high rep isolations is always advisable.


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## Smitch (Dec 29, 2008)

herc said:


> Yep like wise I do push Day once a week which is heavy bench followed by heavy push press then cgbp. Then each muscle gets one isolation/high rep exercise (inc db, side laterals and skull crushers)
> 
> my shoulders are probably one good body part in regards with size and strength (push press 115kg at 84kg weight)


 115kg is a hell of a weight at 84kg, do you need to wear a belt for that?

I've never worn a belt for squats or deads but find it really helps with OHP at the heavier end as it's generally my lower back that starts to give out before my shoulders do, I find that my pelvis pushes forward and makes my back arch backwards. I've probably not got very good core strength.


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## 19072 (Aug 11, 2010)

Smitch said:


> 115kg is a hell of a weight at 84kg, do you need to wear a belt for that?
> 
> I've never worn a belt for squats or deads but find it really helps with OHP at the heavier end as it's generally my lower back that starts to give out before my shoulders do, I find that my pelvis pushes forward and makes my back arch backwards. I've probably not got very good core strength.


 Yes I wear a belt when do push presses! Was upto 115kg barbell and 110kg for log press off tyres. Damaged my forearm jerking the log from floor so only back at pressing this week

https://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/index.php?app=core&module=system&controller=embed&url=https://instagram.com/p/BgrQ_XzH7zr/


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

If you have a highly abbreviated routine which you want to keep short and you already do a fair bit of chest pressing you can get away with just adding laterals and rear delts work. This is not optimal, but will help you build proportionate shoulders.

If you have a more typical split that allows more time and volume then do some variation of an OP, laterals, and rear delts.

If you are doing crazy volume and split where you only train a small number body parts per workout (the kind of training only really applicable to someone assisted and/or at top amateur or pro level looking to refine a physique rather than add as much mass as possible) then add in a couple of extra variations of presses, db raises, cable exercises and upright rows.

In regards to front raises, I mostly wouldn't use them except for either the last category, or perhaps if shoulder (especially rotator cuff) issues make both benching and OH pressing difficult. In that situation they can be a really useful substitute.

As to which variation of OH pressing to do, personally for bodybuilding, I would say DB presses. The ability to move the hands closer together as the load is raised significantly improves the peak contraction of the delts compared to the fixed hand position using a barbell. Also you can push the load from over the sides of your shoulders rather than either in front of or behind the neck, as with barbell pressing. This is also I think the best position for hitting the front and side delts in a balanced way.

I like military presses, and bnp, and also hang clean push presses, but would use the DB press as the main shoulder press for a strictly bodybuilding focus.


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## feelinfine (Sep 26, 2017)

dtlv said:


> If you have a highly abbreviated routine which you want to keep short and you already do a fair bit of chest pressing you can get away with just adding laterals and rear delts work. This is not optimal, but will help you build proportionate shoulders.


 I like doing seated db presses but on a bench with no back support. People tend to lean back and turn it into an incline press when doing seated presses. With no back support you have to slightly lean forward for balance and this really puts the emphasis on the shoulders from my experience.

But I have to say I got the best results when I started doing lots and lots of raises. Both with cables and dbs. To get that cannonball look you need to have good medial and posterior heads. Pressing emphasizes the anterior too much. People already bench a lot as it is so shoulder pressing shouldn't a priority. I still do it because I like the exercise, not necessarily because it provides the best results.


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

I would never not include a lateral raise of some description if bodybuilding was the main focus - agree they probably make the most difference. Cable raises are great for variety and hitting the delt slightly differently but of course there are a few variations of the DB lateral too like the L Lateral or supinated grip laterals.

Another press variation I forgot to mention in my last post was the Scott Press. That's a pretty awesome side delt exercise.


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## feelinfine (Sep 26, 2017)

dtlv said:


> I would never not include a lateral raise of some description if bodybuilding was the main focus - agree they probably make the most difference. Cable raises are great for variety and hitting the delt slightly differently but of course there are a few variations of the DB lateral too like the L Lateral or supinated grip laterals.
> 
> Another press variation I forgot to mention in my last post was the Scott Press. That's a pretty awesome side delt exercise.


 I do a lot of neck, trap and shoulder training. Especially during a cycle. I think these muscle groups gives the best "bang for the buck" as far as appearances go, even when wearing layers of clothing.

When I do laterals I do the leaning version with both dbs and cables. It increases the range of motion and really targets the delts rather than have the upperback and traps take over.










I've tried the scott press in the past but haven't done them in a while. Should get back to it. I also like doing wide grip behind the neck press with a pause at the bottom. I think shoulders really benefit from controlled and paused movements. I know that the mind muscle connection theory sounds like bro science but for smaller muscle groups like shoulders and calves it really seems to make a difference.


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## RexEverthing (Apr 4, 2014)

ishadow said:


> Don't think my front delts are too bad
> 
> View attachment 160765


 @Vinny new account...?


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## Vinny (Nov 18, 2012)

RexEverthing said:


> @Vinny new account...?


 Vinny is my old account bud, I created ishadow after I got locked out of my Vinny account for some reason :S.

Edit: But much prefer my account to be Vinny lol. Specially after getting admin to Delete the person how had the account "Vinny" as it was created and not used since 2003.


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## 72670 (Sep 17, 2016)

swole troll said:


> this
> 
> ohp, side laterals, done
> 
> ...


 How do you feel about OHP one week and replacing it with dumbbell press the next week and so on?


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## swole troll (Apr 15, 2015)

B3NCH1 said:


> How do you feel about OHP one week and replacing it with dumbbell press the next week and so on?


 As long as both lifts progress in either weight or reps it's fine


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## Vinny (Nov 18, 2012)

B3NCH1 said:


> How do you feel about OHP one week and replacing it with dumbbell press the next week and so on?


 I'm planning to do the same, but overhead press one push day, and then behind neck press the following push day.

I've also switched the to behind the neck lat pulldowns, instead of standard front pulldowns, go way to switch things up, keep it interesting.


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## stargazer (Sep 14, 2017)

BNP and front raise are the two worst shoulder exercise you can do IMO.

I used to do both till i realised what i was doing, i stopped both and honestly in a few weeks i couldn't even do BNP.

Stick to OHP and isolation movements to bring up side and rear delts if needed.


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