# Fasted Training



## Sionnach (Apr 19, 2010)

Hey all,

Was wondering have many people used fasted training?

Its based on the concept that thousands of years ago our ancestors would have gone hunting hungry, i dont know too much about it but a guy i know on bb.com told me about it.

Was wondering has any1 else tried it?


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## kernowgee (Jan 30, 2011)

Fasted Cardio for cutting perhaps, but fasted weights is just stupid; at the very least get some protein and creatine on board. I do not care what our ancestors did, its 2011 and training has evolved from Spartacus. Your on a way way road to catabolism if you follow this plan my friend.


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## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

A lot of guys who practice IF (intermittant fasting) train in the fasted state without any ill effects, many notice after they adapt a boost in gym performance or strength levels too. A lot of the paleo / crossfit community train like this too, bur their training tends to be short and intense and not massively stressful.

IMO if strength / aesthetics are your goal it's sensible to supp with BCAA if you want to go down this route to stop any chance of muscle catabolism whilst maintaining the benefits of a near fasted state - an often recommended approach is 10g BCAA pre and after training and a meal within 1-2hrs of the training itself. So long as your hitting your daily macro and calories on top of this you'll be fine.

In fact there may be some unique benefits to training in the fasted state...

Fasted training for superior insulin sensitivity and Nutrient partitioning.


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## kernowgee (Jan 30, 2011)

If you take BCCA then it is hardly fasting as you are clearly feeding your muscles, fasting is nil by mouth.


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## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

kernowgee said:


> If you take BCCA then it is hardly fasting as you are clearly feeding your muscles, fasting is nil by mouth.


I'm aware of this, but the BCAA is a compromise. And "nil by mouth" suggests no water, IF is NOT ramadan.

20g of BCAA is like 80kcal, which will spare any muscle loss but you'll still be training in the near fasted (unfed) state. Many do fine without the extra BCAA insurance policy though.


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## coflex (May 10, 2010)

what u speak of is called the warrior diet. i've read the book and to be fair there's a lot of trainers swear by it....but they tend to be mma, fitness and track type athletes.

the basic premise is to eat only a handful of nuts/berries (if you're hungry) during the day and then get all your required calories within a 4 hour period at night.

in my opinion, there is no way this will work for a bodybuilder looking to gain mass. try eating 400g of protein, 400-800g of carbs and 100g of fats over 4 hours. it just aint gonna be pretty.


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## kernowgee (Jan 30, 2011)

Agree because you are limiting your body's exposure to protein, reducing the building period to a few hours a day rather than 20 plus.


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## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

coflex said:


> what u speak of is called the warrior diet. i've read the book and to be fair there's a lot of trainers swear by it....but they tend to be mma, fitness and track type athletes.
> 
> the basic premise is to eat only a handful of nuts/berries (if you're hungry) during the day and then get all your required calories within a 4 hour period at night.
> 
> in my opinion, there is no way this will work for a bodybuilder looking to gain mass. try eating 400g of protein, 400-800g of carbs and 100g of fats over 4 hours. it just aint gonna be pretty.


IF (intermittant fasting) is not specifically the Warrior diet - that is one form of it. Look up www.leangains.com and see the results of the guy who runs the site and his clients only eating 8hrs per day, the look considerably netter than a lot of so called "bodybuilders", and drug free at that.



kernowgee said:


> Agree because you are limiting your body's exposure to protein, reducing the building period to a few hours a day rather than 20 plus.


This is assuming protein only takes a few hours to digest, which is an incorrect assumption. If you eat large portions of protein but less often (even all your protein in a 4hr window) it just digests over a longer period of time. The body would still be "exposed" to it.


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## kernowgee (Jan 30, 2011)

NO Bayman protein is mostly consumed within 90 minutes thus the reason BB's eat so often which is the point I was making, if you only eat once a day then you limit this further


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## Bish83 (Nov 18, 2009)

kernowgee said:


> NO Bayman protein is mostly consumed within 90 minutes thus the reason BB's eat so often which is the point I was making, if you only eat once a day then you limit this further


omg kerno, 90 minutes! eat all your daily food in one sitting and train 90 minutes after and tell me if its digested.

Casein can take upwards and beyond 7 hours to digest.

Any study showing protein with a high bio-availability and fast gastric emptying are on subjects that havent eaten in 16 hours (fasted) so yeh a serving of protein shake can be digested pretty fast but have a meal a few hours before hand will completely screw up those results.


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## Guest (Feb 27, 2011)

kernowgee said:


> NO Bayman protein is mostly consumed within 90 minutes thus the reason BB's eat so often which is the point I was making, if you only eat once a day then you limit this further


Do you have anything to back up this assertion?


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## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

ALR said:


> Do you have anything to back up this assertion?


Probably not.

Kernowgee, even Whey a supposed "fast" protein only digests at 10g per hour. Most wholefood protein sources (a chicken breast for example) digest at around 3-6g per hour.


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## Andrew Jacks (Sep 29, 2010)

Bish83 said:


> omg kerno, 90 minutes! eat all your daily food in one sitting and train 90 minutes after and tell me if its digested.
> 
> Casein can take upwards and beyond 7 hours to digest.
> 
> Any study showing protein with a high bio-availability and fast gastric emptying are on subjects that havent eaten in 16 hours (fasted) so yeh a serving of protein shake can be digested pretty fast but have a meal a few hours before hand will completely screw up those results.


Why not make your point on topic, the simple fact is bayman is wrong, long periods of starvation is not a desirable diet for bodybuilders and only a plank would advocate such silliness.

You three attempts to cover up this stupid comment simply does not wash. Even on a keto diet fasted Cardio needs to be done carefully, I am with Kernow and coflex the warrior diet is for rugger-buggers not bodybuilders. Reps to them for giving it straight.

God only knows what Bish is on about, I suggest he reads the thread before spouting because his comment backs-up Kernows comment in the context of the debate and very unhelpful


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## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

Andrew Jacks said:


> Why not make your point on topic, the simple fact is bayman is wrong, long periods of starvation is not a desirable diet for bodybuilders and only a plank would advocate such silliness.
> 
> You three attempts to cover up this stupid comment simply does not wash. Even on a keto diet fasted Cardio needs to be done carefully, I am with Kernow and coflex the warrior diet is for rugger-buggers not bodybuilders. Reps to them for giving it straight.
> 
> God only knows what Bish is on about, I suggest he reads the thread before spouting because his comment backs-up Kernows comment in the context of the debate and very unhelpful


I suggest you go do some reading, as in this instance you're the one in the wrong.

You're body does not go into "starvation mode" until at least 60hrs of COMPLETE fasting - this has been studied. In fact in short term fasting 24-48hrs your metabolic rate actually goes up - this makes sense from an evolutionary perspective as this increase in metabolic would give you energy in the search for food. So not eating overnight and then training as I suspect the OP was asking about will be fine with the extra insurance of some BCAA to stave off any catabolism as I suggested.

Bish's "attempts" to cover things up are also correct. Protein is not absorbed within 90mins of eating it as Kenow is suggesting, therefore there is no need to eat every 3hrs as bodybuilder folklore often says. Why is this relevant? Well if you consume more protein it just takes longer to digest, therefore even if you ate all of your protein in a short window it'd still be digesting for hours and hours afterwards - you wouldn't be truly fasted. In fact, eating protein too often can reduce the body's response to it - look up Layne Norton's work on ingesting more protein LESS often, his studies show positive results in natural BB'ers.

Andrew, you really need to educate yourself with some proper facts before you come barging into a thread spouting this bull****.


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## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

Top Ten Fasting Myths.


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## Stvjon41 (Jan 16, 2011)

bayman said:


> Top Ten Fasting Myths.


Interesting read! Will have to have a deeper read into it when I get a bit more time.


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## Andrew Jacks (Sep 29, 2010)

bayman said:


> Top Ten Fasting Myths.


That must be the karen carpenter school of body building, what utter tosh, I think it best to ignore you because you are going to drag me down with you, keep googling your PDFs and warped theories with your ittle gang.


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## Wevans2303 (Feb 18, 2010)

I've given fasting a try multiple times tweaking stuff each time and I can definitely say it isn't for everybody, especially me, cant seem to get around feeling tired, flat and weak, along with it taking me 4 times as long to wake up properly and massive headaches despite me staying hydrated.

I'll stick to the old 6-8 meals a day and 50/30/20 or 40/40/20 ratios please.


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## SeBb0 (Jan 8, 2011)

there's no right or wrong but i would suggest to those doubting fasting to really read up on the links that bayman showed...

if u look at it from a paleolithic stand point it makes a whole lot of sense & is a extremely smart way to train.. getting the most out of both worlds


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## Wevans2303 (Feb 18, 2010)

May I also add personally I think it's utter bullsh!t when guys say that a fasting diet isn't catabolic........the whole premise of fasting is that the under eating catabolic stage stimulates anabolic processes in the over eating phase.

Anyway from my experience, I really don't think you can negate the catabolic processes that fasting brings, when I fasted the last time I made sure I was cramming (expensive) BCAA's in every couple of hours per Iron Addicts recommendations along with the shake+berry meals and I still ended up losing a boat load of muscle and ended up p!ssed off.

Hey, on 6 meals a day 40/40/20 split in macro's I was doing body weight circuits at a very high volume and kept nearly all my mass + dropping fat faster than I did whilst I was fasting, no feeling sh!t either.


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## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

Andrew Jacks said:


> That must be the karen carpenter school of body building, what utter tosh, I think it best to ignore you because you are going to drag me down with you, keep googling your PDFs and warped theories with your ittle gang.


So because it doesn't fit with your pre-conceived thoughts on bodybuilding, it's rubbish? Do you actually accept everything at face value? It's a pretty closed minded way of thinking - I don't like what you're saying so I'll put my fingers in my ears la la la.

If it's crap, explain why.

This guy looks positively horrendous fasting 16hrs per day.

As does this guy:










As does this guy:










This chap look positively skeletal fasting for 16hrs every day...


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## Stvjon41 (Jan 16, 2011)

Andrew Jacks said:


> That must be the karen carpenter school of body building, what utter tosh, I think it best to ignore you because you are going to drag me down with you, keep googling your PDFs and warped theories with your ittle gang.


Why are you just purely debunking it? At the end of the day, if you train hard and fuel your body, the way IT needs fuelling, changes will happen. Each person is different. I know guys that are fat as hell but eat hardly anything, I know guys skinny as rakes that eat like the world is coming to an end. The same can be said in reverse too.

Just because you don't follow it, and you may not believe in it, does not make it "utter tosh". Open your mind to new theories and experiences!

I'm not saying I believe in that web page, but I won't ridicule it because it goes against what I believe.


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## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

Wevans2303 said:


> I've given fasting a try multiple times tweaking stuff each time and I can definitely say it isn't for everybody, especially me, cant seem to get around feeling tired, flat and weak, along with it taking me 4 times as long to wake up properly and massive headaches despite me staying hydrated.
> 
> I'll stick to the old 6-8 meals a day and 50/30/20 or 40/40/20 ratios please.


No it's not for everyone. But some, as per examples above have great results with it. All depends how you set the diet up.


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## Andrew Jacks (Sep 29, 2010)

SeBb0 said:


> there's no right or wrong but i would suggest to those doubting fasting to really read up on the links that bayman showed...
> 
> if u look at it from a paleolithic stand point it makes a whole lot of sense & is a extremely smart way to train.. getting the most out of both worlds


Nobody is doubting fasting outright, bayman is looking for trouble twisting threads to feed his ego, he has to be center stage with his gang, most people try and stay on topic, then the ego stomps on threads. The OP made a comment and others add there thoughts, with bayman it is always attack people because he knows more yet as shown above he stated fasting was best done with BCCA's LOL

You follow his google searches


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## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

Andrew Jacks said:


> Nobody is doubting fasting outright, bayman is looking for trouble twisting threads to feed his ego, he has to be center stage with his gang, most people try and stay on topic, then the ego stomps on threads. The OP made a comment and others add there thoughts, with bayman it is always attack people because he knows more yet as shown above he stated fasting was best done with BCCA's LOL
> 
> You follow his google searches


My ego? My gang? WTF are you on about man?

The op asked about fasted training, I gave my opinion - in that if you're going to do it I would recommend the intake of some BCAA in and around the training to offset any potential catabolism (not that I think there will be much anyway) with minimal calories. There is nothing inherently wrong with fasted training so long as you hit your cals and macros for the day.

You amongst others then jumped in with uninformed comments surrounding fasting and protein digestion, which are wrong - go look at the studies if you don't believe what I'm saying. I've attempted to put you right and your responses have basically come back as "Your points don't fit with my pre-conceived notions, so I'll ignore them"

Keep your head in the sand, suits me just fine.


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## SeBb0 (Jan 8, 2011)

lol.. sounds like its been bubbling between u too for awhile haha.. i follow the intermittent fasting training method if thats what u mean.


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## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

SeBb0 said:


> lol.. sounds like its been bubbling between u too for awhile haha.. i follow the intermittent fasting training method if thats what u mean.


And are you muscles falling off? :whistling:

Nothing has been bubbling on my side, this guy is just and ignorant idiot. :death:


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## Fatstuff (Mar 2, 2010)

Oh my god I've been fasted training for 2 months nearly, I've been hittin pb's no probs. No bcaa nothin . Love it


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## SeBb0 (Jan 8, 2011)

bayman said:


> And are you muscles falling off? :whistling:


haha .. nope, quite the opposite & steadily progressing


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## Wevans2303 (Feb 18, 2010)

bayman said:


> No it's not for everyone. But some, as per examples above have great results with it. *All depends how you set the diet up.*


Would you agree with me it's more important how YOU are set up? (Genetics?????) Would have thought absolutely critical factor in whether fasting will work for you or not is your level of insulin sensitivity/resistance?

Of which there is a 6 fold variation (on average) of insulin sensitivity if you took a group of 100 random people....


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## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

Not really. Does it make any sense to you that the body would catabolise muscle if you went a few hours without food? That study I posted earlier showed metabolism to increase during fasting (up until about 60hrs) with no net change in leucine oxidation in the body, so protein being sufficient over 24hrs I don't see how you'd lose any muscle given the realative slow digestion rates of wholefood proteins.

What does insulin sensitivity have to do with this?


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## Fatstuff (Mar 2, 2010)

Fasted training is fandabbydozy


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