# progress



## Guest (Mar 8, 2006)

well i been sat here thinkin??? o deer i hear you all saying :lol:

now i know i've made some good gains so far,BUT i know what im putting into my training and what noledge i have,so how far would i of got if i was trained by an experianced bodybuilder??have any of you thought about this?and what about supp's?it costs so much to take all the stuff you really need?do you think you would be further on if you could afford all the supp's you need?well rant mode of i guuess before i start ramblin any more


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## tahir (Feb 15, 2008)

i think it would make a difference if u were trained by a experienced bodybuilder, becasue alot of them know wat they r talking about, from training to nutrition, u will get help, so i think it wud make a big difference,

about the supps if i had the money i wud buy more, at least in my head i have the satisfaction that im taking loads of supps lol :lol:


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## nick500 (Dec 12, 2005)

i think being trained by a bodybuilder would be a huge boost because theres no way they would let you slack in your workout, and make sure you push yourself really hard. Being men of experience they would know the 'real deal' without bogging themselves down with too much science which is great in theory but rarely applies in real-life situations.

I often think, if i'd just had a can of tuna instead of each scoop of whey i've ever had, would it be better/worse/as good. I think better, but it would've been unattainable given time and effort, much easier to drink a tiny bit of protein than eat a f**k load of sloppy cold wet fish...


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## Tom84 (Dec 12, 2005)

Whether being trained by a pro would make a difference depends on you.

Yes of course taking every supplement if you could afford it would make a difference as however minimal a positive effect is still a positive effect.

'Being men of experience they would know the 'real deal' without bogging themselves down with too much science which is great in theory but rarely applies in real-life situations. '

This statement is a complete falsehood IMO. How many competing bodybuilders of past generations are as good as the bodybuilders of today. Why is this. This is due to advances in technique and approach (obviously also PES development). This advance has been brought on by scientific knowledge. The more we learn about the human body the more that information can be applied to our sport. The science behind how to take anabolics is as much a development as a development of the compounds themselves and the developments of nutrient timing and macronutrient ratio's and well as the effectiveness of different ways to train and there effectiveness are manifest.

From a guy who has lost a lot of weight from Atkins a diet based on scientific advances in the manipulation of the uses of food as energy sources in the body thats a pretty bold statement.

Thats as pointless a statement in my eyes as the guys who research stuff that doesnt apply to them.

The biggest guys I know in the gym and on the boards have very good research background where it affects them. The guys that fail are guys that pay no attention to science or do research for the sake of research and pedantically quote it all as experience. Ask a question to a huge guy about a variety of issues. I gurantee the response will usually be either very detailed or I have no idea because that's never and never will affect me.

Bottom line train eat sleep LEARN grow. Learn from both practical experience as well as scientific evidence where it applies to you. Neglect neither and your on to a winner. Neglect science and you risk sub optimal performance and wasted efforts on poor advice from people who used methods that maybe worked for them but will not work for you. Neglect experience of you and your body and you risk the same result.

Nuff said  (We need the rant forum back)


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## nick500 (Dec 12, 2005)

wasn't talking about anabolics at all, or even diet... i answered my question in relation to 'training' only...

in fact if we totally forget juiced up bodybuilders, my argument about experience counting is extremely relevant, as if you were trained by a pro natural bber who would obviously be huge anyway, you would learn hugely about how to really hit your muscles hard and train with intensity. my view is that training is still easily the most important part of the whole thing, second place being diet, 3rd place being supplements and gear or whatever.



> From a guy who has lost a lot of weight from Atkins a diet based on scientific advances in the manipulation of the uses of food as energy sources in the body thats a pretty bold statement.


I didn't stick to a strict atkins diet. in fact, all i did was cut carbs from my diet. When i lost weight and cut most effectively, it was when i didn't know anything about diet - i think there is an article on AST-SS on the MAX-OT training section that argues that the more you learn about your diet, the more you actually dont listen to your body. I think this is true to some extent.

Obviously i'm contradicting myself a bit here and i don't believe this die-hardedly, but this is a good discussion i like it. From personal experience, when i listen to my body and eat/train when/what i 'feel', then my results are best. In 5 years of training you pick up what your body responds to, the science is just backup and the 'reason' why things happen.

on the flip side, i have learnt a huge amount of information from sites such as this and from research, and i believe it has helped hugely, but i think the reliance upon strict scientific principles is pointless and arbitrary, when a lot of the time those scientific principles do not relate to your specific body type or metabolism for example. If you were training with an experienced bodybuilder they would most likely be able to:

(a) draw from scientific principles

( B) apply them to your specific body type

© correctly monitor your progress and adjust the routines accordingly.

Also, the hugest guy i've ever seen the gym decline pressed 3 reps of 220kg bench. This guy didn't look healthy at all, nor did he look slim. BUT he was fu**ing strong.

In summary, all depends on your aims, goals and ambitions. If your main aim is to be hugely strong, then minute scientific principles like arguing over to take 40grams or 50grams of dextrose post workout would be pretty pointless, but if you are going for absolutely perfect 100% conditioning with perfect symmetry and are content-preparing, such details might be more important !!

PS tom you are my enemy number one lol


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## Tom84 (Dec 12, 2005)

Yeah I agree being trained by a pro would be beneficial that wasn't really what I was getting at. My comments on how much it would benefit you were based on motivation. Some people would be extremly motivated others would not. There knowledge would obviously be beneficial particularly someone as meticulous as Jay Cutler for example. So that discount's half of what you wrote I agree you missed my point as I equally might have missed yours intially. I was more referring to the fact that you said science 'rarely applies.'

'on the flip side, i have learnt a huge amount of information from sites such as this and from research, and i believe it has helped hugely, but i think the reliance upon strict scientific principles is pointless and arbitrary, when a lot of the time those scientific principles do not relate to your specific body type or metabolism for example.'

'Bottom line train eat sleep LEARN grow. Learn from both practical experience as well as scientific evidence where it applies to you. Neglect neither and your on to a winner. Neglect science and you risk sub optimal performance and wasted efforts on poor advice from people who used methods that maybe worked for them but will not work for you. Neglect experience of you and your body and you risk the same result.'

So we agree then.

When I talk of huge guys I mean huge bodybuilders with less than 15% bf I could care less what powerlfiters do there is obviously less nutritional science to powerlifting from our P.O.V. I mean huge bodybuilders of who most I firmly believe would have a very strong scientific basis for what they do when they do where it applies to them. I doubt Jay Cutler knows the difference between the metabolism's of black and white atheltes but I bet sure as hel he knows almost to the calorie his own nutritional intake and when he needs to eat what macronutrients.

PS I love you too buddy


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## Guest (Mar 8, 2006)

well u both missed my point u tits :lol:

as to all the research and science,that ant gonna help me one dam bit,,unlike u lot i did not bother with school and stuff as i was to busy workin my ass of full time,so if i start readin the sort of stuff u lot quoat all the time i just get a head ache and end up more confused than before,as to bein trained by a pro or just any guy whos got to a good size i know id be at least a couple of stone heaveyer than i am now !!!


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## Guest (Mar 8, 2006)

and while im on about gettin lost can u answer this(in a none science way so i can under stand :lol: )

im lookin at supps and want to know which i should have?a weight gain or a whey shake?i ask as they seem preety much the same?or should i use both?


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## nick500 (Dec 12, 2005)

weight gain contains a lot of carbs and fats, whereas whey protein is basically just protein, with a tiny bit of carbs and fats.

the weight gain is different from whey, so if you just want to put on mass and find that it is hard to eat enough, then weight gain powders is for you. Remember, you might put on quite a lot of fat using them though.

whey is generally seen as cleaner and wouldnt necessarily put on a lot of fat when used, because its basically just a protein source. You can combine it with things like oats and bananas to produce your own sort of weight gainer, so its flexible and can be turned into a weight gainer (so no real point in buying a weight gainer?).

So if you can be bothered to make your own mass/weight gainer shakes by adding good quality ingredients, like oats, bananas, natural peanut butter, for example, this will be much healthier than buying a weight gain shake, which will use other ingredients which aren't as good for you.

BUT making your own will take much longer and is more effort.

If you are thinking of going for a weight gained, try Extreme's performance mass.


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## Tom84 (Dec 12, 2005)

No worries me and Nick were just having abit of a laugh really mate. Between the three of us (Me, Raz,Nick) we regularly disagree as to the value of resrearch. Me and Nick have been training the longest by far and are in better shape but Raz does more research than us both. NIck point blank refuses to accept anything Dorian Yates did can be wrong Raz reads study after study which are completely irrelevant to him. I'm somewhere in the middle. Was just a bit of banter really.

Anyways to get on with your question.

Supplements guranteed to have a positive effect on your training backed by both scientific and actual evidence are

Whey protein Isolate/Concentrate

BCAA's

EAA's

Creatine monohydrate

Flax Seed

EPA oils

Omega 3,6,9

Multi vitamins

Vitamin B

Vitamin B5,6,12, and complex

Taurine

Various other amino's

Co enzyme q 10

Then there are around 30 other supps I have used specific to problems which may have a beneficial effect. God knows how many there actually are

I have high BP on cycle for example

so I use hawthorne Berry

Potassium

Co q 10

Red Yeast Rice

(on the legal side of things)

There are then sups which have limited credibility

tribulus

ZMA

Glutamin

NO

anything by muscletech

what needs to be done is sieving out the s**t so to speak, and deciding whats necessary.

Top Competitors take everything and I mean everything (Ronnies pill box is hilarious). Others may not take as much due to economic restriction.

OK to answer your last question. There are about 10 different types of protein available to buy as supplements that I can think of off the top of my head. On top of that there are countless amounts of blends of different percentages and varying carb sources among the endless amount of companies we have.

There are also goal specific protein types which usually primarily based on the rate of absorption as your needs here differ depending on the time of day you take it.

I'll try to outline the most popular forms for you

Whey protein Concentrate/Isolate - Very fast absorbing protein best used for PWO. Isolate is more expensive as it has a higher protein per 100g content and absorbs quicker.

MRP - Meal Replacement powder - Usually blends whey protein and other sources with varying carb sources. Whey Casein Soy etc with carb sources. The object is a sustained protein and nutrient release.

Casein - Usually used before bed - The body will not obtain any nutrients during sleep - Your gona go around 8 hours without protein. Casein is digested more slowly than other forms of protein and thus the body is deprived of protein for less time.

Weight Gainers - The object is to put on as much weight as possible. Usually this is just whaty is achieved but the weight is not muscle. Most weight gainers are a blend of proteins but usually whey and use sugars as part of a very high carb content. The high amounts of sugar lead to storage of excess apidose tissue (fat)

Hope that answers all your questions.


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## Guest (Mar 8, 2006)

lol soooooooooooooooooooo if you were gonna go for a bulk which would u use outta these

weight gain

meal replacement

whey


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## Tom84 (Dec 12, 2005)

They are not the same comparing is pointless, like I just said they do different jobs.

Whey protein is a must for post workout the others are optional, but as we have both already said weight gain we don't rate.

I'm using Extreme's Meal Replacement right now as I kinda felt seen as I give his stuff a hard time I should actually try some. Tastes pretty good, the one thing I definately have noticed from using it is how unsynthetic it tastes compared to any I've tried before. Tastes a lot less like fake sweetened crap, a bit like comparing what your favourite fruit tastes like to no sugar sweets.


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## Guest (Mar 8, 2006)

lol i know but if u were on a budget and could only afford 1 in which order would u place them?for a bulk of couse


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## Tom84 (Dec 12, 2005)

Whey (for bulking or cutting)

MRP (only when Bulking)

Weight Gain (Only if hell freezes over)


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## Guest (Mar 8, 2006)

see a simply answer with out all the sicence works well  :lol:


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## Tom84 (Dec 12, 2005)

Yeah but thats my personal choice its ridiculous not to give everyone the info so they can choose for themselves.

I wouldn't take anyone's word for anything without looking into it. Plus I haven't really posted any science, I posted whats in them and what they do so you could decide for yourself. I'll make all your decisions if you want?


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## Tom84 (Dec 12, 2005)

Actually though isn't that your wife's job


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## Guest (Mar 8, 2006)

lol cheeky t**t,m8 like i say you write most your posts in such a way as to say "hay look im smart" well im sorry to say m8 readyin crap like that ant what most us normal oldies want to read,i myself may come across as dumb as s**t lol but the truth is i have a very high IQ but i chose long ago that sittin on my ass learnin crap was not for me so i went and got a job while most the kids my age were still playin with their action man,i learned to read and write before school,i evern learned latin before junoirs and i still dont care how dumb i come across cos thats me,i ant havein a go but thought id let u know i ant as dumb as i come across,besides im a god dam god !!! so like bb'ing just keep it simply and real :lol:


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## nick500 (Dec 12, 2005)

devilsquest said:


> lol cheeky t**t,m8 like i say you write most your posts in such a way as to say "hay look im smart" well im sorry to say m8 readyin crap like that ant what most us normal oldies want to read,i myself may come across as dumb as nogood lol but the truth is i have a very high IQ but i chose long ago that sittin on my ass learnin crap was not for me so i went and got a job while most the kids my age were still playin with their action man,i learned to read and write before school,i evern learned latin before junoirs and i still dont care how dumb i come across cos thats me,i ant havein a go but thought id let u know i ant as dumb as i come across,besides im a god dam god !!! so like bb'ing just keep it simply and real :lol:


Have you had your IQ measured out of interest?


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## Guest (Mar 8, 2006)

yes i did when i was arrested once,lol very long story and lets just say it was way above what any one would of thought for such an off as me lmao


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## Tom84 (Dec 12, 2005)

No probs DQ I'm not writing to come across smart at all if thats how you feel cool and as far as having a go at me feel free to if you want mate, I'm gonna have a go at people when they piss me off and I expect people to have a go at me when I do the same I'm not about to get like a spoilt little kid and get pissed off.

I respect a hell of a lot of your achievements mate from being in the forces to your martial arts. I don't think you come across academically intelligent but thats just me being honest, I'm not criticizing you for that, I don't care whether people are or not.If you think I'm a spoilt little snob or something then feel free to say it. As far as that goes I've had to work fu**ing hard to get where I am I'm from Salford in Manchester not exactly the thriving centre of oppurtunity I went to all state schools and had some of the worst teaching you can imagine. But I worked my ass off and I got 5 straight A Alevels. I never bring this up because this is a bodybuilding board and its not important. I'm not bragging just trying to say I'm not exactly a spoonfed snob or anything and I disagree with you when you say I write things to try to come across as more intelligent than I am because thats not me or my personality.

And i was just trying to lighten the mood about your missus no offence


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## Guest (Mar 8, 2006)

lol kool yg and plaese take the missus lmao,,on second thoughts no would not be kind to u to set her on u lmfao


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## Guest (Mar 8, 2006)

Young Gun said:


> Whey (for bulking or cutting)
> 
> MRP (only when Bulking)
> 
> Weight Gain (Only if hell freezes over)


I disagree completely, it depends on diet, timing and the product itself.


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## Tom84 (Dec 12, 2005)

Which I outlined in a post before I wrote that, thatw as my basic opinion which DQ asked for.

How many products have you tried Tom. What were your gains off them. What did your weight go from and then too. Measurements, lifts.

I would always use a whey protein.

I would use Extreme's MRP or reflex's when bulking if I had to use one. I would not when cutting.

I would never use a weight gainer.

Do you actually do any bodybuilding or just talk about Reflex/my protien products. Based on your gains and experience what would you suggest.


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## Guest (Mar 8, 2006)

pmsl oops tom hes onto u :lol:


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## nick500 (Dec 12, 2005)

lets keep things friendly yeah

DQ basically i'd stick away from weight gainers

Use MRPs

Use whey


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## Guest (Mar 8, 2006)

devilsquest said:


> pmsl oops tom hes onto u :lol:


No he just dosent like a different opinion.


Young Gun said:


> How many products have you tried Tom. What were your gains off them. What did your weight go from and then too. Measurements, lifts.


Ive used a fair few. ZMA, creatine, many forms of whey, protein bars, carb drinks, multi vit, egg albumin, milk protein and others. My overal gain while I was hitting the gym properly was about 1.5 stone, and then it shut on me. I dont bother being over @[email protected] like SOME people and measure my bicpeps everyday, its so self centered. I do know my deadlift started at about 40kg and went upto 100kg. When I first ever went to the gym, I didnt even use free weights, I can admit I was weak, unlike most people care to talk about, I just used cables till I built up some strength then progressed.


Young Gun said:


> Do you actually do any bodybuilding or just talk about Reflex/my protien products. Based on your gains and experience what would you suggest.


If your only way to get your point accross is cheap personal shots, you shouldnt be a mod. No one here is trying to be personal, just give opinions, if you dont like it, leave. Im not currently body building, but dosent mean nothing, I still have a knowleage and read up about subject matters quite allot in my spare time. My suggestions would be to look at your diet and asses where your weak points are, if you dont think you have enough protein, get protein, if you think a certain meal if lacking buy a MRP, if you think you need extra cals a good weight gainer post workout are full of callories.


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## Andy1981iron (Dec 16, 2004)

I'd recommend oats and whey combo shakes, with added milk and banana if you can be bothered.

Extremely effective weight gain formula, been a huge part of my cycle.

By the way....IQ tests are a poor measure of intelligence.


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## nick500 (Dec 12, 2005)

andy1981iron said:


> I'd recommend oats and whey combo shakes, with added milk and banana if you can be bothered.
> 
> Extremely effective weight gain formula, been a huge part of my cycle.
> 
> By the way....IQ tests are a poor measure of intelligence.


ala me eh andy !!

hehe

I ****in hope IQ is a good measure of intelligence coz my IQ is high  lol


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## Guest (Mar 8, 2006)

whats yours then? mines 131


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## Tom84 (Dec 12, 2005)

andy1981iron said:


> I'd recommend oats and whey combo shakes, with added milk and banana if you can be bothered.
> 
> Extremely effective weight gain formula, been a huge part of my cycle.
> 
> By the way....IQ tests are a poor measure of intelligence.


Very true


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## nick500 (Dec 12, 2005)

142 average with 160 in 2 parts of the 7 IQ test apparently, although 2 parts also in the 100 range (and technically dyslexic because of it...)


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## Tom84 (Dec 12, 2005)

Comando Tom said:


> devilsquest said:
> 
> 
> > pmsl oops tom hes onto u :lol:
> ...


Cheap personal shot asking you for experience to back up your opinions? Not a personal shot in my book

I have no vested interest in any product. You posted about reflex a few weeks ago. Look what I'm reccomending. I hardly think I can't tolerate disgreement with me. I just wouldn't take the advice form someone who doesn't train and has <14 inch biceps as they have obviously not put any of their knowledge into practice and therefore won't have any idea how it applies. In fact in another thread I just put anyone has anything to say about me feel free everyone's entitled to their opinion.

Self centred. Ok mate anyone that knows me or looks at any of my posts about my girlfriend or mates knows thats about the stupidest accusation you can make at me.

In all honesty you just try my patience with ridiculous posts trying to get a rise out of people. Your knowledge and experience is poor and I haven't seen you promote a healthy debate once. You make utterly ridiculous posts.

Bottom Line Bodybuilding forum and you don't bodybuild


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## Guest (Mar 8, 2006)

My personal reasons for not body building has nothing to do with my knowleage, nor is it none of you god damn business about me so shove your head where the sun dont shine.

If you dont like my posts, dont read them.

We all got opinions, just because you dont agree dosent make me wrong.

:lol: Laughable.


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## Andy1981iron (Dec 16, 2004)

I've never taken a proper IQ test, if there is such a thing. People who are good at Rubick's cube type puzzles will probably do well on IQ tests.

The term intelligence has never been defined adequately and therefore nobody knows what an IQ test is supposed to measure.

The person who discovered DNA had an IQ of 115 for example.

I scored 117 in a dodgy online IQ test.


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## Tom84 (Dec 12, 2005)

PMT?

Its not because you don't bodybuild that your knowledge is poor its because your knowledge is poor.

And no I don't care why you don't bodybuild, in fact I could care less I didn't ask. Just pointing out bodybuilding forum bit strange to be a member if you don't bodybuild.

For the millionth time your entitled to your opinion, I agree, I think your wrong I'm gonna say so. Feel free to say if you think I'm wrong getting worked up is unnecessary and makes you look like an idiot.


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## Tom84 (Dec 12, 2005)

andy1981iron said:


> I've never taken a proper IQ test, if there is such a thing. People who are good at Rubick's cube type puzzles will probably do well on IQ tests.
> 
> The term intelligence has never been defined adequately and therefore nobody knows what an IQ test is supposed to measure.
> 
> ...


Thats a very good point mate. A lot of the time the ability to do well academically goes hand in hand with Fack all common sense. *cough* not me *cough* honest *cough* *cough*


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## Guest (Mar 8, 2006)

PMT? Are you that childish?

I would love to know what is so poor about my knowleage. This knowleage of mine that went against your freind and it shown that favour of people agreed with me. It cant be that bad.

I'm not getting worked up, I have no reason to get worked up over a few words on my screen that are about such a topic.

Me looking like an idiot is your opinion, and its not a very good opinion in my opinion, but only the reader of this can have there own opinion of it and make their mind up.

This whole thread goes back to DQ, its his choice what he uses. Weather he listens to you or me or none of us is up to him.

IMO, he should buy what fits into his diet, somthing we can both agree on I think.


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## Guest (Mar 8, 2006)

pmsl dam "boys" its like hearin my lads gobbin of in the front room!!! now would u lot like the same i gave them,,,,,,,a slap round the head :lol:


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## crazycal1 (Sep 21, 2005)

i stay off threads that dont like.

i can do a rubiks cube(well used to be able)in 57secs(on the school bus-hee hee)

and ive got 14 " arms :shock:

lets change the subject boys 8)


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## Guest (Mar 8, 2006)

well cal its just these guys are soooo young they gotta see who can piss up the wall the highest lol

god if they ever live long anothe to be our age :lol:


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## crazycal1 (Sep 21, 2005)

amen brother-

we truly are gods among men PMSL* :roll: *


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## Guest (Mar 8, 2006)

eye u are so right


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## nick500 (Dec 12, 2005)

crazycal1 said:


> i stay off threads that dont like.
> 
> i can do a rubiks cube(well used to be able)in 57secs(on the school bus-hee hee)
> 
> ...


video video !!! thats awesome!


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## Guest (Mar 8, 2006)

nick why do u want cals video???some thing u not tellin us lol,,,but i do here theres an ass shakein video avable int that right cal :lol:


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## nick500 (Dec 12, 2005)

lol

coz i wanna be like cal and finish in 57 secs !!!


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## Guest (Mar 8, 2006)

well each to his own,,but u know ladys like a tad longer than that :lol:


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## crazycal1 (Sep 21, 2005)

i honestly did do it that quick,but i got lucky-

my previous best was around your time nick-

normal peeps didnt have video cameras when i was at school-:roll:

strangely i cant remember how to do the cube any more :?


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## Guest (Mar 8, 2006)

Nick is your method posted on the net anywhere?


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## Tom84 (Dec 12, 2005)

I seriously have roid rage today but will let the last comment go because its pointless. I hope in a round about way you got your questions answered DQ please let us know which product you decide if any to buy and where from. I speak to a lot of the supps companies and get 10% discounts with quite a lot of suppliers so I'll try and help you out depending where you buy from.


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## Guest (Mar 8, 2006)

nice one yg,well seems you cycles kicked in lol,me im a nasty bugger normaly yet sooooo chilled when on the gear,,,don't figure lol


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## Tom84 (Dec 12, 2005)

Yep I reckon so was up 4 pounds today mate. I'm an asshole all year round just a bit more techy on gear I guess.

Someone tells me to shove my head up my ass, normally I wouldn't be calling them childish though stupid fu**ing mod responsibilities can'tthreaten anyone anymore fu**ing stupid word restrcitor gonna make this all fairy love bubbles fu**ing s**t f**k s**t

ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

I feel better


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## Guest (Mar 8, 2006)

lmao  its all love on here now yg :lol:


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## Tom84 (Dec 12, 2005)

Yep plus at least this thread has a purpose hey mate. maybe we should carry on get bigger discounts.


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## Guest (Mar 8, 2006)

yer any addvance on yg's 10 % lol just pm me lmfao :lol:


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## tahir (Feb 15, 2008)

this turned into sum serious thread lol :lol:


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## Guest (Mar 8, 2006)

was nowt to do with me this time lmfao


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## Tom84 (Dec 12, 2005)

tahir said:


> this turned into sum serious thread lol :lol:


With a good 6 different topics :lol:


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## Guest (Mar 8, 2006)

yer and all helped my post count lmfao


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