# Understanding PCT



## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

*This is not a copy and paste.* 

PCT, what does it mean?

Post Cycle Therapy.

What does it do?

It returns your Hypothalamus, Pituitary, Testicular, Axis (HPTA) back to producing its own endogenous testosterone production.

How long does it last?

Good question but in my opinion the normal 21 to 30 days protocol is too short unless suppression of the HPTA is minor.

Ok, you produce about 7 mg of testosterone a day or around 49 mg a week on average, some more, some less (usually older guys).

So, you go on a cycle of lets say 500mg of testosterone a week or about 10 times your natural production. The body sees this as too much testosterone and will lower production of testosterone to try to maintain homeostasis (balance). The body loves homeostasis.

Testosterone in a man gets converted into two other hormones; one of those hormones is DHT (dihydrotestosterone) this is done by an enzyme called 5-alpha-reductace. DHT is actually about 3-5 times more androgenic than testosterone.

The other hormone it gets converted to is estradiol (E2), this is a strong estrogen but from now on we will just refer to it as estrogen, even though there are 3 different kinds of estrogen. Testosterone gets converted into estrogen by another enzyme called aromatase. The conversion is called aromatization.

Ok, the body will convert more testosterone into estrogen probably to try and maintain homeostasis, so the more test, the more estrogen. For most this estrogen is not a problem. But for some it will be a problem and this extra estrogen can give side effects like gynecomastia (gyno) or water retention, but one big problem is estrogens suppressive effects on Luteinizing Hormone or (LH) LH is what the pituitary gland sends as a chemical hormone to the Leydig cells in the testicles where the testicles will product testosterone. Estrogen is probably 100-200 times as suppressive as testosterone.

So when LH production stops (exogenous testosterone will do this too) the testicles will stop producing and like anything not being used will atrophy.

What does this mean?

You will get some small balls, no kidding mine have been the size of almonds without the shell.

OK, so you come off a cycle, the exogenous testosterone is tapering down and after about a couple of weeks (this is the clearance time for testosterone cypionate and enanthate) you end up with low levels of testosterone as your endogenous production has long been stopped. Now here where the problem starts. You potentially have the testosterone of a woman, and high estrogen from all that aromatization.

This can be a recipe for disaster, why? Because men need test to feel normal and not only that hard earned muscle will be eaten up by being in a catabolic environment, not to mention there is still going to be some suppression because of elevated estrogen.

I have seen big strong men carry on like crying women in this state; it is very bad, sex drive is zero, no energy, emotional, insecure, the list is long.

So, what can you do?

First of all in my opinion bringing the nuts back online is very important, the most important. This is done with the use of Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG)

It basically is pregnant woman's urine. HCG mimics LH and as we learned above that LH is the chemical hormone that stimulates the Leydig cells to produce testosterone. HCG is very strong and many times stronger than the amount of LH that the pituitary puts out.

The typical dose is anywhere around 350iu to as much as 2500iu and even in some cases more but I don't recommend this. Best advice is to use as little as possible to achieve success at bringing the nuts back to life from their nice little vacation.

The half life of HCG is around 3 days or so, so Subcutaneous (Sub-Q) shots or Intramuscular Shots (IM) are done about Every Other Day (EOD or Every 3 Days (E3D).

If you use too much for too long desentization of the Leydig cells can happen and this is not good.

One other thing is HCG aromatizes pretty heavily. So an anti estrogen is always recommended if you shoot more than 500iu and even that if you are gyno prone would be a good idea to add an anti E.

HCG comes in tow bottles or vials and one is powder and the other is a solvent or bacteriostatic water, the water gets added to the powder and this is called reconstitution. Once HCG is mixed it must be refrigerated. In bacteriostatic water it will last around a month.

Now next we want to block the hypothalamus and pituitary gland from that excess estrogen as that in itself is suppressive.

How is this done? With a drug called Clomiphene citrate (clomid). This is really a drug to help women ovulate but it acts as a Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulator (SERM).

It occupy's the estrogen receptors in the hypothalamus and pituitary and blocks estrogens exertion on those glands. It's like putting a key in a lock but not turning the key. It is just occupying that space without really doing anything.

Clomid in my opinion works better than another SERM that many people use called Nolvadex. Both pretty much do the same thing but together I have found to be far superior than using any of them by themselves.

Clomid is used to test the pituitary for secondary hypogonadism, clomid @ 100mg a day after 5 to 7 days will double LH responce and increase FSH by 20% to 50%, that is huge.

Both clomid and nolva are in pill form as well as liquid form.

What these do is block estrogen. The body sees this as it is low in testosterone and estrogens suppressive effects are not there as the receptors are blocked. So it see's this as low testosterone and low estrogen so the body turns on the hypothalamus to produce Gonadotropin Releasing Hormone (GnRH) which in turn tells the pituitary gland to produce LH and FSH (follicle stimulating hormone). FSH is another hormone that stimulates the Sertoli cells in the testicles to produce sperm.

Ok, so lets put this all together.

There are a couple of ways you can do this.

First you can take HCG in small amounts during the cycle to maintain testicular function or you can take it after the cycle is finished to start your PCT.

Either way is fine but if the cycle is very long then long use of HCG can be a problem due to the possibility of desentization of the Leydig cells.

That's pretty much the last thing you want to do as you want your own LH production to keep the testicles producing test.

So, what you can do is wait about 2 weeks for the testosterone to clear your system or be around base levels of normal producing test and start your HCG, clomid and nolvadex all at the same time.

You don't have to worry about the aromatization issue because both clomid and nolvadex are anti-estrogens or act as anti-estrogens in the body.

By the way nolvadex is used in estrogen sensitive cancer tissues like in treating breast cancer.

I take clomid at 50mg twice a day (12hrs apart) for 30 days.

I take nolvadex at 20 mg a day for 45 days.

I take anywhere from 1000iu EOD to 2500 EOD for 8 shots (16 days).

So the HCG is taking care of the nuts and taking them off vacation and putting them back to work and the nolvadex and clomid will help the hypothalamus produce GnRH which will tell the pituitary to produce LH and FSH.

Once the testicles are producing test on their own you stop the administration of HCG and let the body take over, kind of like handing a baton when doing a relay race.

Depending on the type of gear, length of time on, amount of gear, all play in this factor of recovery, not to mention the genetic factors involved in shutdown.

I shutdown very hard and I notice atrophy in as little as 3 weeks.

If anyone has any questions or wants to fill in some spaces just let me know.

Cheers.


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## Vec's (Nov 24, 2005)

Nice Post Hackskii, just wondering what mark is 500iu on a Insulin syringe, its a 1ml syringe, ive got 6 vials of HCG at 1500iu each and 6 bac water 1ml


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Vec said:


> Nice Post Hackskii' date=' just wondering what mark is 500iu on a Insulin syringe, its a 1ml syringe, ive got 6 vials of HCG at 1500iu each and 6 bac water 1ml[/quote']
> 
> Are you on a cycle or doing a PCT?
> 
> ...


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## Baggio (Jun 16, 2006)

great post hacks, my PCT looks like this: HCG 1500ius e3d (6 shots)

nolva 40mg ed week 1 & 2

nolva 20mg ed week 3,4 & 5

vitamin E 1000ius ed while on HCG

i know i havnt included clomid but do u think this would be sufficient after a 10 week cycle of test E, NPP (last 6 weeks) & TBol (last 3 weeks)?


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Depends on if full testicular function is achieved and the nolva by itself is enough to jumpstart the hypothalamus and pituitary.

Id be willing to bet NPP is pretty supressive.

Did you use HCG during?

Did you use any AI during?

Do you have any atrophy right now?


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## Baggio (Jun 16, 2006)

hackskii said:


> Depends on if full testicular function is achieved and the nolva by itself is enough to jumpstart the hypothalamus and pituitary.
> 
> Id be willing to bet NPP is pretty supressive (100mg eod).
> 
> ...


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

I would still add the clomid IMO.

That should be enough HCG but to be honest that isnt even 10,000 in total.

See if you can get a couple more amps to be on the safe side.

At least purchase them wheter or not you will use them.

I found my very first time on HCG worked probably the best.

Better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it.


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## Broady (Aug 10, 2007)

Oh my F***ing God, I am hoping to start on a course of D-Bol in the near future once I have found a reliable source, but I never realised the counter measures and counter, counter measures for the oestrogen build up were so involved!!!!

Great post Scott, a bit of an eye opener!!!


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Broady said:


> Oh my F***ing God, I am hoping to start on a course of D-Bol in the near future once I have found a reliable source, but I never realised the counter measures and counter, counter measures for the oestrogen build up were so involved!!!!
> 
> Great post Scott, a bit of an eye opener!!!


Better to find out the easy way than the hard way like I had to....:eek:


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## Gray (Feb 13, 2006)

Dear all, sorry for crashing in on this link but its kinda related. I've done about 5 different cycles using different gear over the last few years and the one thing really affects me is the crash at the end of the cycle, for me its like a kind of depression and insecurity, almost a paranoid feling. It lasts about 3 - 4 weeks but is a killer, after the last cycle I used Clomid and HCG and this really helped. I'm planning a cycle for later in the year and I wondered if you guys could help me design it ?. Diets good at the mo and Im in decent shape just below 13 stone - I want to stick another 1/2 stone on if poss.

For the cycle i want to use Anavar ( helps me get through the lactic build up ) and a mass builder which I'm looking for advice on plse? Also I want to combine HCG in the cycle as I'm hearing good reports from others and I think it may help stave off my CRASH. I also would like some help with the PCT as obviously I must be very suseptable to the affects of introducing test. So, In a nust shell , can any help me design a cycle using the gear mentioned above and design a PCT cycle for someone who is very prone to the crash afterwards

Kind Regards

The Gray Man.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Gray said:


> Dear all, sorry for crashing in on this link but its kinda related. I've done about 5 different cycles using different gear over the last few years and the one thing really affects me is the crash at the end of the cycle, for me its like a kind of depression and insecurity, almost a paranoid feling. It lasts about 3 - 4 weeks but is a killer, after the last cycle I used Clomid and HCG and this really helped. I'm planning a cycle for later in the year and I wondered if you guys could help me design it ?. Diets good at the mo and Im in decent shape just below 13 stone - I want to stick another 1/2 stone on if poss.
> 
> For the cycle i want to use Anavar ( helps me get through the lactic build up ) and a mass builder which I'm looking for advice on plse? Also I want to combine HCG in the cycle as I'm hearing good reports from others and I think it may help stave off my CRASH. I also would like some help with the PCT as obviously I must be very suseptable to the affects of introducing test. So, In a nust shell , can any help me design a cycle using the gear mentioned above and design a PCT cycle for someone who is very prone to the crash afterwards
> 
> ...


That would be pretty easy to design a cycle for you considering you crash.

Totally HCG will help you avoid a crash but also the type of gears you select.

Can you give me an example of the compounds that you used last cycle and the amounts and timmings?

Lenght of cycle too and your PCT.

Wont be hard to see the red flags if you post that up for us.


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## Gray (Feb 13, 2006)

Cheers, well in reverse order.

The last cycle was a 3 week week one and tbh i wanted some gains for the beach and was using up some gear in the cupboard. wk1 10mg dbol + 10mg avar, wk 2 20mg dbol + 20mg avar, wk3 10mg dbol 10mg avar PCT was 1tab/day clomid for 1 week and 2 shots od HCG 2000iu each shot ( 1 week apart ). The cycle before that was boldenone and Primo ( I think about 2ml per week of each, started high and then tapered off ) I wrote it all down and hid the paperwork from prying eyes and now I cant find it !! Hey ho the PCT for this was just nolvadex. the one before this was avar and deca, went up to about 2 tabs of avar/day and 2ml of deca per week for about 6 weeks - again just did nolvadex at the end of this - sorry its vague but I'm lost without mi training log.

Hope this helps ??

The Gray Man


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Wow, kind of surprised you crashed with such modest gear use.

Your PCT was not long enough either.

I bet you could avoid most of the problem with running a maintenance dose of HCG during the cycle.

This will help your testicles to keep and maintain testicular function.

This will make transitition to PCT a snap.


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## Gray (Feb 13, 2006)

well, me too !

could it be possible that I'm very prone to this? I mean my nads shrunk to the size of ...errrr..give in , lets just say they went a lot smaller. And like you say I don't exactly go daft with the gear. Any advice on dosage and frequency of HCG during a 6 week cycle ? (or do you need to know the details?)

Thanks

Grayman.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Gray said:


> well, me too !
> 
> could it be possible that I'm very prone to this? I mean my nads shrunk to the size of ...errrr..give in , lets just say they went a lot smaller. And like you say I don't exactly go daft with the gear. Any advice on dosage and frequency of HCG during a 6 week cycle ? (or do you need to know the details?)
> 
> ...


Well, from personal experiance I have found that if one were to try to bring the nuts back to life (from the dead) it takes more agressive usage of HCG.

But to keep and maintain full testicular function and size, 500iu every 3 days would more than enough to do the job, even twice a week would be fine.

I notice that when I use an AI like arimidex, it talkes longer for atrophy.

But when they are small like smashed grapes like I get, it takes some aggressive use.

Not only that but timing to start your PCT should be about when the levels hit base normal values.

Sadly I suffer probably the worst with this, some gear is worse than othes, I have found tren and deca in my experiance to be the worse supressors.

So, as of late, I dont use those compounds anymore purely for recovery reasons.

And if I did it would be in the very beginning in the cycle as to let what ever they do get out of my system.


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## Gray (Feb 13, 2006)

Brill thanks for the advice, sorry I haven't responded sooner but I've been away. I've now got a better understanding of PCT's in general and what might be better for me being sensitive and all. Right, now here's the thing I want to put together a cycle and I want to combine the following elements :-

1.Anavar ( for strength )

2.Sustanon ( or a n other mass builder ?? )

3.HGH. ( enhancing the growth from 2 above )

I'll come back to the finer details of the PCT in later posts. I want your opinion on the choice of gear and some suggestions on dosages - I was thinking of a 6 week cycle ( 10 max )

I've used var and sus before with no probs but have never tried HGH, what do you know about it and combining it with gear ?? ( dosages, brands etc? )

Cheers

The Grey man.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Nice cycle actually.

500 sust, 75 var or 50 if you so desire, then 2iu HGH a day and be on the lookout for stiff joints.

Start PCT 3-4 weeks from last sust jab.


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## Gray (Feb 13, 2006)

Great stuff cheers,

I was thinking of doing 250mg of sus per week and combine it with 200mg of deca per week, would this be of benefit or just over complicated ?

The Gray Man


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Gray said:


> Great stuff cheers,
> 
> I was thinking of doing 250mg of sus per week and combine it with 200mg of deca per week, would this be of benefit or just over complicated ?
> 
> The Gray Man


That is fine but first cycle in my opinion should be simple with one compound so you can see how it all goes.

Test based cycles you cant go wrong with.


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## Gray (Feb 13, 2006)

Cheers again

Its not my first cycle though, I've done about 5 previous and had decent results with a sus and dec stack.

I've nearly finished designing the cycle, just got a bit more reading up to do and then I'd like to post it up for your opinion if possible. no ned to reply, I'll post the cycle up when done

Mega cheers for all your help.

The Gray man


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## Gray (Feb 13, 2006)

Hi Hackskii

well, here's my draft cycle - can you please have a look at for me and let me know any changes or concerns.

wk1: 50mg Var, 200mg deca/wk, 250mg sust/wk, 1 nolv ed.

Wk2: 75mg var, 200mg deca/wk, 250mg sust/wk, 1 nolv ed.

wk3: 75mg var, 200mg deca/wk, 250mg sust/wk, 1 nolv ed, hcg 5000iu/wk, HGH 2iu ed, clem 3-4 tabs ed 0.2mg.

wk4:75mg var, 200mg deca/wk, 250mg sust/wk, 1 nolv ed, hcg 5000iu/wk, HGH 2iu ed, clem 3-4 tabs ed 0.2mg.

wk5:75mg var, 200mg deca/wk,250mg sust/wk, 1nolv ed, HGH 2iu ed, clem 3-4 tabs ed 0.2mg.

wk6:50mg var, 200mg deca/wk, 250mg sust/wk, 1 nolv ed.

PCT:

wk7: hcg 5000iu /wk, Arimidex 0.5 -1mg eod.

wk8: hcg 5000iu/wk, Arimidex 0.5 - 1mg eod.

wk9:Clomid 50-100mg ed

wk10:Clomid 50-100mg ed

I'm unsure whether i should taper the gear down in wks 5 & 6 ??

Also unsure if the PCT looks ok ???

Cheers

The Gray Man. mg:


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

A few things, you can keep the anavar at the same amount all the way through and even up to PCT, or while you wait for clearance times of the deca and sust, it wont make you any more shut down and what little it would wont really matter.

You need to start PCT 3 weeks from last jab and if you feel there are androgens present still you can wait another week.

If it was me I would run the HCG @ 500iu twice a week and keep an eye on the nuts, you can run the HCG while you are waiting for your gear to clear as well, it wont do anything in regards to shutdown but only bring the testicles to have full testicular function, which is what you want otherwise recovery will be seriously compromised.

Prior to starting your PCT you should have no issues with libido.

You can run the clen during PCT to help avoid catabolism but I was never sold on the idea the clen in humans is anti-catabolic, animals yes, humans no.

You can run Adex while waiting to start PCT and if it was me I would run it throughout.

Estrogen is very suppressive but necessary for gains among other things.

I would add nolva to the clomid and 2 weeks of clomid wont do it for recovery, I would run the clomid for no less than 3 weeks and 4 if you can.

Nova is simple @ 20mg a day for 30 or even more days.

Clomid should be run at 100mg a day.


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## Gray (Feb 13, 2006)

Phew ! back to the drawing board as they say ! - watch this space for revised

cheers

The Gray man


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## Gray (Feb 13, 2006)

Hi Hackskii

couple of questions:-

would you say take nothing for 3 weeks after the last jab and then start the PCT ?

I incorporated the Clen with the HGH mid cycle as I've read the anti cat helps - the article suggested T3 as another compound that can be used, would that be better ?

I thought you had to use the HCG in short bursts so as not to permanently affect the permanent production of gonatropins? that's why i put 2 weeks in the middle and 2 weeks at the end.

cheers

The Gray man


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## Gray (Feb 13, 2006)

Also , i'm thinking of dropping the deca as well .


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Gray said:


> Hi Hackskii
> 
> couple of questions:-
> 
> ...


Well, small doses to nuts that are already functioning would keep them functioning.

T3 can be taken with gear.

I myself would run low dose HCG throughout.

Sust and deca would be 3 weeks before start time of PCT last jab.


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## rightyho (Jun 29, 2007)

Hackskii, I'll be looking at serious PCT after my remaining competitions.

Can you suggest some protocol in respect of what I've been using:

Mainly 225mg tren acetate / week taken as 75mg Mon, Wed, Fri.

Also proviron run at 100mg/day for the two weeks leading up to each show.

And 1 Aromasin tab EOD for the two weeks leading up to each show.

GH was stopped 3 weeks ago and won't be restarted because the shows are too close together back-to-back to escape water retention.

T3 at 25mcg/day and T4 at 200mcg/day has been pretty constant for 5 weeks now.

Post-shows, I'll be cycling down the thyroid meds over 2 weeks.

I have the option to either go into PCT immediately after this, or try to caputalise on a rebound effect from months of dieting by swopping over to a testosterone ester - probably enanthate or propionate.

Intended dose of that is 500mg / week.

So, do I go into PCT from tren, or after say 4 to 6 weeks of test?

What about the aromasin? Dropping it out after the shows will probably cause a heavy estrogen rebound which, coupled with the HCG, won't be a pretty sight. I strongly suspect I'll need to keep it in through PCT and a few weeks out the other side. What do you think?

Post show meds available:

Test enanthate

Test prop

T3

T4

Aromasin

GH

HCG

Clomid

Nolvadex

Clenbuterol

IGF-LR3

I also have some tribulus from Sopharma - the proper tribulus company but everyone is telling me it's useless for PCT. It must have a use in the clean period following PCT though, surely?

Ta mate....

PS - I could say I'd be looking at a 4 month clean period post-PCT but I'd be lying. I'll probably be off 8 weeks or so once PCT is completed. Got 10kg to slap on for next year.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Estrogen rebound is no joke, problem is blocking estrogen makes the receptors very sensitive and once you quit the AI it will get flooded with estrogen and those sensitive estrogen receptors will be fresh to make some nice tits&#8230;.lol

One way around that is to taper the AI.

Or if you are going into PCT then you can take nolva and clomid with pretty much no worries about rebounding, but even those you should taper.

I take Aromasin with HCG myself and I also include nolva and clomid for PCT, I take bigger doses than most with regards to HCG, so I want to keep overall estrogen down some. Sadly you cant get away using Arimidex nor femara with nolva as it seriously lowers blood plasma levels of most AI's with the exception of Aromasin where it doesn't.

If you are considering an aggressive approach with HCG I would run the Aromasin with it and 2 days after you stop HCG, then you can drop the Aromasin and continue with the nolva and clomid.

But honestly if you want a painless transition into recovery I would run a taper of testosterone. Tren seems to be pretty suppressive I have found and usually needs some time from last jab for a PCT to be effective.

Last PCT didn't go all that good and felt either the tren totally wasn't out o my system of the liquid stuff I bought for PCT was garbage.

So, I went back on test to wait out the tren.

Deca is notorious for shutdown for months afterward and recovery is seriously compromised.

As far as the GH and IGF are concerned I do feel they aid in recovery, especially when doing HCG.

So, yes, I would do some test, I would also taper the test and you have the option of low dose HCG while on test to get testicular function back, or do the aggressive approach, it is your choice.

But while on test, I would run an AI with that, not for any other reason other than estrogen being very suppressive.

We are not looking to recover here, just keep gains, wait out the suppressive effects of tren to clear, and allowing the body to taper off gear.

Ideally I would taper the test down to TRT doses just before coming off.

If you get the nuts rolling, recovery is a breeze.

Sorry for being so vague here, I want you to decide how you want to do it and I can give you some guidance. After all it is your body and you should decide just which way you need to go. Once you figure it all out you will love how easy it is to recover.

Forget the trib, it is pretty much worthless.

Let me know what you decide then we can go in the direction you want.


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## rightyho (Jun 29, 2007)

Cheers mate - it clearly makes sense to me to run a short test course, then as it clears, get onto HCG, continuing aromasin all the way through until HCG is cleared and nolva and clomid can be used at the tail end.

Don't fancy a cold turkey stop to tren at all.

Thanks Hackskii.

Was thinking of something like......

1500iu hcg EOD, shot at 500iu morning, afternoon and night and running it for 3 boxes of 3 ie 18 days, using aromasin at 1 EOD or ETD during this time frame, and 50mcg IGF-LR3 every day (post training on training days) - running the IGF up to 28 days.

Was then going to swop out to 100mg clomid / day taken as 50mg am and pm doses, with 20mg nolvadex pre-bed and 3.3iu gh per day before breakfast, running the clomid and nolvadex for 3 weeks, continuing with the GH during the off period.

Days 1-18:

1500iu HCG EOD

50mcg IGF/day

1 aromasin EOD

Days 19-28

100mg clomid/day

20mg nolvadex/day

3.3iu gh/day

50mcg IGF/day

Days 29-40

50mg clomid/day

20mg nolvadex/day

3.3iu gh/day

Days 40-96

3.3iu gh/day, creatine, glutamine, Pro-GF


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

You could run some test for a month or so to wait for that all to clear, switching to the shorter esters while you taper that down.

One problem with being on androgens at above physiological levels makes you used to the androgens, once you come off you end up with a kind of androgen withdrawal.

Tapering at the end of a long cycle is very prudent advice. But most people will disagree.

But I have seen dudes crash so freaking bad it is one of the ugliest things I ever saw and I truly feel sorry for them.

So, you have some options here.

First of all I was getting morning wood on 100mg of clomid, when I dropped it after a couple of weeks to 50, I stopped getting morning wood.

Run the clomid @ 100mg for 30 days.

Run the nolva @ 20mg for 45 days.

The whole crux of recovery hinges around testicular function.

So, you could try and do something like what you are thinking, or any variation.

The biggest problem with HCG is its heavy aromatization and much of that is in the testicles. It will raise test levels big time but even more so estrogen. This boost of estrogen in the nuts is a bad thing; this is where we get in to trouble with desentization issues with the Leydig cells.

HCG and aromatization is dose dependant.

One thing that kind of protects the nuts from desentization is nolva.

So, you can do something like 500iu a day for a few weeks, that might just do it as that would just over 10,000iu.

For me it takes over 10,000iu for me to recover, closer to around 20,000 actually, but that is at the end of the cycle.

If you use it during you would need far less.

Take 1,000iu of Vitamin E a day too, do not use aspirin during the use of HCG, take your IGF-1 and HGH with no problems and this will help things along too.

The most important thing is to get the nuts recovered.

One way to test this is once you come off gear and do the HCG you can have blood drawn to see where your test levels are.

If they are anywhere near your normal base levels you can stop the HCG and continue with the clomid and nolva.

If you are considering taking 1500iu then maybe you might want to consider taking nolva with the Aromasin to help protect those Leydig cells. You wont recover while on testosterone but you can bring the nuts back to life while you are waiting out the clearance of the other stuff you were taking.

Also it would not be a bad idea to switch to shorter acting esters like propionate at the end, this way you only wait 3 days before starting PCT.

Or you can wait till you are done then do a more aggressive approach with the HCG.

What was the total length of time on cycle?


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## rightyho (Jun 29, 2007)

Nice one Hackskii. I did a 12 weeker with an 8 week break followed by another 12 weeker that's just turned into a 13 weeker and will be about a 20 weeker by the time the shows are over and a month of test is run.

If I were to jump onto test post-shows, would I be looking at 500iu hcg eod for example to stimulate the gonads WHILE on the test?

Thanks mate.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

rightyho said:


> Nice one Hackskii. I did a 12 weeker with an 8 week break followed by another 12 weeker that's just turned into a 13 weeker and will be about a 20 weeker by the time the shows are over and a month of test is run.
> 
> If I were to jump onto test post-shows, would I be looking at 500iu hcg eod for example to stimulate the gonads WHILE on the test?
> 
> Thanks mate.


Yah, if the nuts are responsive.

When mine go south and I have to bring them back to life, 500iu ED doesnt really seem to work.

I do feel EOD shots work better for some reason.

If they respond then that is fine, if they dont then you will have to be more aggressive with the HCG.

That comes with some plus's and minus's, the plus is the extra stimulation to fire the nuts up, the minus is the extra aromitization.

But, if the nova and some aromasin is in the mix, chances are the minus is not quite as bad.

Bringing the nuts online while you taper the gear should work, or get you really close to start the other part of the equation of PCT and that is bringing the hypothalamus and pituitary back online.

Nuts first, then the others.

Do you have testicular atrophy right now?

See, the nice thing about HCG is it will force the nuts to produce testosterone, even with the presence of exo test.

This is a good thing, but the only way to tell for sure is to take blood tests and see if you are producing endo test that is within base values.

With HCG you can produce above base values as LH is telling the nuts to do so, that is how the body stays in homeostasis, the hypothalamus stops sending the pituitary GnRH and this results in the pituitary not sending LH.

With the use of HCG one can overstimulate and produce higher than normal test but all we are looking at here is testicular function.


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## rightyho (Jun 29, 2007)

Yes mate, there's atrophy - not profound but hey the walnuts have been shelled.

Not much wood going on either - has the odd glimmer of hope then turns back into a slumbering trouser worm. :gun:

So, maybe a 500mg test pick-up from the tren with 1000iu EOD of HCG during the final two weeks of the test duration, leading into a HCG-driven proper PCT. I don't want to be on HCG for more than 4 weeks for the obvious reasons of the risk of desensitisation.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Well, that is kind of a tough one as you are kind of trying to do two things at once.

You can do the aggressive PCT after the test taper.

Normally when aggressive HCG is used it is higher in the begenning then taper's down twards the end.

I think the added stimulation is more to jump start things.

again I need more than most and you might need as much.

Without prior experiance with the use of HCG I am not sure how you would respond.

That and you are younger than me by far too which I feel is better for recovery than this old dude.

There was a diet and still is that uses HCG @ only 200iu a day, they are put on 500 calories for up to 40 days, or is that 45 days?.....anywy, they suggested that on average people lost up to about a pound a day.

HCG protected the lean muscle and also the HCG helped to rid the body of abnormal fat.'

Others put on a 500 cal diet lost the exact same but the HCG subjects lost mostly fat whereas the other group lost alot of muscle.

The diet was not so effective at around the 40 day mark.

So, they come off the HCG for 6 weeks, then they can come back on and start losing again.

I bring this up because it is over a month for the HCG to stop working for the diet.

I suspect it is about the same give or take for desentization.

But, that is avoidable with the use of nolva.

So, it is possible to probably do longer course than 4 weeks if you maintain base levels of estrogen and probably use nolva for the nuts to act as an anti-E there.

So, you can be the test guinny pig here and run the 500iu throughout the test course, while you run the aromasin and nolva.

At the end of the month tho, I would taper that some, and even when you stop you can still hang with the HCG after the test clears starting your PCT with nolva and clomid.


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## surfer808 (Dec 1, 2007)

Here's my cycle...will the clomid be fine? Or should I add PCT somewhere?

1 - 10 wks Testaviron Depot 500mg

1 - 10 wks Decca 300mg

1 - 4 wks D-Bol 30mg ED

1 - 10 wks Milk Thistle 500 mg(sp?)

12 - 14 wks Clomid 100mg ED for a week, then drop to 50mg ED


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

That wont work mate, first of all the deca wont clear for around three weeks.

If it was me I would drop the deca week 9, continue with the test, 2 weeks after last jab do 100mg clomid a day for 21 to 30 days

20mg nolva for 30 to 45 days.

Run the nolva longer than the clomid.

You can taper the dose in the end too (I do this) just in case of estrogen rebounding issues.


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## MDB (Nov 14, 2007)

Great post hacks ! ... good info is what im after ...

I ve done many mild cycles when i was younger , i was always very thin and after working out for years couldn´t just gain anymore weight.

so i became curious about using gear

i have never done more than 8 , 10 week cycles , never stacked in my life and have never gone over 250mg of test a week.

only used Clomid for pct, and sometimes nothing at all since i took plenty of time off get back on ( sometimes a full year ) and truth is i never did any research on pct back then.

i `m back to training now and im doing research on pct since im planning a to run a cycle of 500mg of sustanon a week (jab mon 250mg and a jab on tursd 250mg)

what would you run then for pct?

and also ...

could i stick to the 250mg a week ? since its always worked out fine for me, or is that very low ? meaning what is the difference between each besides gains, strenght, etc of course.

excuse my questions but i want to do things right this time

and thats what my research is all about?

anything help on this will be great ppl.

oh, btw i'm 33 , weight 74 kilos would like to be stuck on 85/90 kilos.

again thanks mate . excellent post !


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

250 is pretty low but you can supplement low dose d-bol with that and be just fine.

You don't have to split sust shots, not necessary as the long ester in that will last much longer than a week.

If you want to do that then this is ok, I would totally run HCG with that cycle to keep and maintain full testicular function.

Better to keep the nuts alive than try to bring them back to life at the end of the cycle.

Not only that but low dose of HCG will keep your nuts producing testosterone and if you are doing 250 test a week then the added amounts from HCG will be helpful.

You could use clomid only but at just a small amount of cash adding in nolva with clomid is a great idea and could very well make recovery easier.

I always run my clomid @ 100mg a day and the nolva @ 20mg.

Clomid for 30 days and nolva for 45 days.

Im lot going to lie to you but 500 you would see better results than 250 but with more sides. I would take an Aromatase Inhibitor (AI) with that cycle, something like Arimidex @ .5mg twice a week or E3D, half life is pretty long so no worries about taking ED.


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## surfer808 (Dec 1, 2007)

hackskii said:


> That wont work mate, first of all the deca wont clear for around three weeks.
> 
> If it was me I would drop the deca week 9, continue with the test, 2 weeks after last jab do 100mg clomid a day for 21 to 30 days
> 
> ...


Should I run the HCG during my cycle? If so, how much and starting when? I want to keep the boys running smoothly (no issues yet) but then again I'm only 2 weeks into the cycle.

Any help would be appreciated...thanks


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## MDB (Nov 14, 2007)

Thank you again hacks for the info... and such a fast reply.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

surfer808 said:


> Should I run the HCG during my cycle? If so, how much and starting when? I want to keep the boys running smoothly (no issues yet) but then again I'm only 2 weeks into the cycle.
> 
> Any help would be appreciated...thanks


Totally run the HCG during the cycle.

Do 500iu E3D or twice a week, which ever one keeps them plump.

Start the first week and run it right up to when the steroids are going to clear.

Has about a 3 day or so half life so you can drop it 3 days before you start PCT


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## punkfloyd (Dec 26, 2007)

Great Post Hacks - like the man said, very informative.

Thanks


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## joepeeps (Nov 13, 2007)

Ok from what i have read nolva seems better suited to pct after a d bol only cycle than clomid..theres a long article i found on google

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/catnolv.htm

Thats a pretty good read on the subject


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

I have read that.

I love to read Big Cats stuff but his thinking is a bit flawed.

They use clomid to test men for hypogonadism in the medical field, they dont use nolva.

I have used nolva and aromasin for a PCT and failed, i had to re-run my PCT using nolva and clomid.

nolva only does not work for me, I dont care how many studies people come up with.

They both are agonists and antagonists for estrogen, they are similar but not the same, each one can effect diffrent tissues diffrently.

i totally believe nolva acts as an estrogen on the prostate, to my knowledge clomid does not.

nice read but a bit flawed


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## uknumbr14 (Sep 24, 2007)

hey hackskii.i seem to be getting load of different answers so would like your help if poss mate. Im goin to run a cycle of test enanthate and deca for 8 weeks.thinking of doing 250mg enanthate and 100mg in one jab on a monday,then the 250mg enanthate on thursday and 100mg deca. running this for 8 weeks.Then week 11 bringing in the hcg,clomid and nolvadex.normally see some shrinkage towards the end of a cycle,then a crash.never used pct before after courses so really need some help if poss.cheers.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Did you say that you normally get a crash at the end of your cycle?

You can run the HCG during the cycle to avoid testicular atrophy.


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## uknumbr14 (Sep 24, 2007)

i have run a few courses over many years.didnt understand much of pct but done loads of research and read all ur posts regarding it.much happier now with it all,what i noticed with previous cycles is shrinkage towards the end of the cycle,then a few weeks after finishing a horrible feeling.no go in me at all,no labido and emotions of a woman,ha.

cheerz for the reply.much appreciated.what kind of doses would you think of hcg,clomid and nolva with that course?thanks


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Well, I dont use deca anymore due to the level of supression it tends to give me, tren either.

If you used 500iu of HCG throughout then by the end of your cycle would wont have nut shrinkage.

I suffer from that very bad.

I like the idea of keeping them working rather than bringing them back to life.

Due to the lower amounts of HCG an AI might be or might not be needed.

Something like just .5mg arimidex twice a week will keep some estrogen at bay but not compromise gains due to the effects of estrogen.

I actually find recovery easier if I use an AI during but it probably would hinder some of the gains.

Your crash at the end of the cycle is pretty much avoidable with the use of HCG.

Basicly what is happening is you have too much estrogen and not enough or very low testosterone levels.

Even if estrogen is normal, low levels of test will make you feel like crap and give you no libido.

My bro had no libido from a cycle once and not even viagra helped him.

HCG did though, within just 2 days he was getting erections and feeling normal.

I think the idea is to use just enough HCG to keep the nuts working, that would be a safe bet.

Not enough and you will still get some atrophy, too much and you will have some heavy aromitization and potentially desentisize the leydig cells.

Desentization issues can happen with too much HCG or using HCG for too long.

Nolva also protects the nuts from desintization too, which I think is caused from estrogen.


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## uknumbr14 (Sep 24, 2007)

thanks for the reply.so with that dose of gear and cycle length would you recomend using hcg during.i like finishing a course and then jabbing hcg as it still gives me that feeling of being on a course,if it helps to avoid the crash though id take it during course.so id start clomid and nolva 2getha approx 3-4 weeks after course.sorry ti keep on but i want to get this bang on before starting course.thanks.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Well, the time to start is pretty important.

Depending on the dose and the ester, this will change the start time of your PCT.

I do feel that some of the crash is associate with some kind of androgen withdrawl.

You could start PCT week 11 and run the clomid, nolva and HCG together.

But I do think that HCG during might be the way to go, this would leave more room for a less aggressive PCT.


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## paulo (Feb 17, 2007)

mate just started a wwinny only oral cycle-for a month, he going to try lean up as he puts it-he has been advised no ancils reqd? is that right-also, should he do nolva or similar as pct


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## uknumbr14 (Sep 24, 2007)

top man cheers.Think i will run low dose of hcg during cycle,and then the clomid and nolva at week 11.does this mean i do not take hcg at week 11,is a little amount during the cycle enough or carry on with it with the clomid and nolva.cheers.


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## ZAMBON (Apr 7, 2007)

So this is your "home" Hack...id say so with 20,000 post


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

ZAMBON said:


> So this is your "home" Hack...id say so with 20,000 post


If I had not known better id swear by your avatar you are kidd?

Yah, home bro, has been for almost 5 years.


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## sttheod (Feb 24, 2008)

i have a question..whats the difference beetwen clomid and nolva???arent they do almost the same job??


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

sttheod said:


> i have a question..whats the difference beetwen clomid and nolva???arent they do almost the same job??


For gyno yes, for jumpstarting the pituitary no.

I find nolva is not very good for me for recovery, clomid is better for me, but both work best.


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## sttheod (Feb 24, 2008)

i have an other question..if during a cycle you feel estro effects shall you use nolva??and after this when on pct nolva again??isnt it too much of nolva??


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Too much meaning you are taking nolva for too long?

I am not a big fan of nolva as an anti-estrogen, it is an agonist and antagonist to estrogen.

So, with some tissues it blocks estrogen and in others acts like an estrogen.

I do believe the prostate is one tissue that nolva acts as an estrogen on.

If I am even remotly right then id suggest this is not the way to go during.

An AI used during a cycle will keep estrogen at a management level.

Estrogen is necessary for gains or helpfull anyway, but too much is very supressive and sides can manafest.

I like Adex as it has a long half life so twice a week doses were cool with me.


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## sttheod (Feb 24, 2008)

can u tell me what is AI?? hackskii i cant find here hcg and if i use nolva DOD instead would be ok or novla will minimize the testo effects??


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

AI = Aromatase Inhibitor


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## sttheod (Feb 24, 2008)

thanks mate!! in 2 weeks i am gonna start my 1st cycle!!rpreparing for jabbing!!


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## mattymerri (Mar 5, 2008)

can you use thibulis to tryan dboost natural testosterone levels during clomid cycle?or would this just be useless? can you just use nolvadex instead of clomid?


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Trib is worthless, save your money.

Although clomid and nolva are both classed as a SERM, they both are agonists and antagonists to estrogen.

So, some might target diffrent receptors than others.

Clomid is superior in my opinion to jumpstart the pituitary.

Both seem to work better together.


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## drb (Mar 11, 2008)

Excellent post mate it's really helped on the info side.Previously i've done two courses before. first was 8 weeks of 250mg sust every 5 days and 200mg deca every 4 with nolva everyday direct from the mick hart bible. The next course was 10 weeks of sust and deca, again sust every 5 days and deca every 4 but no nolva or pct.This time though i'm thinking of running two shorter courses of 6 weeks because on the previous courses around week 7 i had an outbreak of acne on my shoulders and back and to be honest my gains started to taper,i've read from previous threads adjust your cycle to suit you.In the way of shrinkage i did have pretty severe symptoms towards the end of my courses but never had any pct.I didn't notice a crash at all just the small plums.I recoverd with no problems within a couple of weeks after the first course and after the second i started using a supp fom anabolic extreme and my balls were bigger than ever and the production of the little fellas was ample.After giving you my life story what my actual question is, if i'm doing a 6 week course of test enth and deca in relatively low dosages how do you think i should conduct pct.I have a good supply of tamoxifen but i from reading your previous posts i know you're not too keen.Any help would be greatly appreciated.


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## Jc456 (Mar 12, 2008)

hi guys..one question: After PCT does your natural testosterone production go back up to its full natural levels? say are you said we make 7mg a day. do we get back to 7 or 5 a day?

Thanks


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

The timing of the start time of the PCT would reflect the clearance time of the drugs used, so nobody can answer the question if they didnt know the drugs being used.

Testosterone levels will return to your normal base values prior to the cycle.

In a few men, sometimes the levels might not bounce back to base levels, or if they do it can take up to a year.

There is no one PCT cookie cutter prodocol.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

I wanted to drop this graph here:


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## Big_Dan (Jan 26, 2008)

What makes me laugh is, when i asked couple of mates that are taking steroids , what are they using for PCT ,

and the reply i got .......................................................................................

What is PCT ? mg: mg: mg:


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## NeilpWest (Aug 19, 2007)

Big_Dan said:


> What makes me laugh is, when i asked couple of mates that are taking steroids , what are they using for PCT ,
> 
> and the reply i got .......................................................................................
> 
> What is PCT ? mg: mg: mg:


I have the same mate. I have a mate that im helping and he has a few mates i dont know that use steroids quite abit and when i told him to ask them what pct was they didnt have a clue.


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## Dinky_Dan (Mar 21, 2008)

Hi all, i am new to all this ... after all this is my 1st post!

Like WOW!!! I never realised their was so much involved with PCT! Think i'd better revise my plan of action! Don't want to mess myself up!

Dan


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## Tall (Aug 14, 2007)

hackskii said:


> I wanted to drop this graph here:


Have you got the pre/on cycle graphs?


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

TH&S said:


> Have you got the pre/on cycle graphs?


They are in here but not from the one you are requesting.

That one with LH is with guys on 250mg of test enanthate for 6 months or something.

This is one Scally did and it has pre, mid, and post cycle numbers. Quite impressive with the bodyfat and strength tests too.

ScallyVergelAstractHPGA.pdf


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## arian40 (Jun 17, 2007)

hey hackskii, nice thread,first of all, and im very new to this pct and hcg stuff, well had a few questions, i am on my second cycle right now doing 250mg enanthate ( 8 weeks ) 250mg sus ( 8weeks ) dianabol 30/40mg (6 weeks)

and 2 weeks after my cycle i will be taking

Day 1 300mg Clomid

Days 2 - 11 100mg Clomid + 20mg Nolvadex

Days 12 - 21 50mg Clomid + 20mg Nolvadex

Days 22 - 28 20mg Nolvadex

my question is, Do i need HCG ?

and i have read alot about hcg on google and posts here but all it talks about is

whats it is, and the lengh of time it should be taken, etc. etc.

i also wanted to know how you take it ? im guessing its injectables and if it is , is it intermuscular? and where is it normaly injected?

and if i dont take it, how long would it take for the nutts to come back online as its sort of small right now.

many thanks

arian


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

HCG is taken during the cycle sub-Q.

Did you mean you are doing a 16 week cycle, or 500mg for 8 weeks?


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## arian40 (Jun 17, 2007)

500mg for 8 weeks.

so i dont need to take HCG ?

didnt get what sub-Q is, but going to do a quick research on it now, hopefully ill find some info about it.


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## Tall (Aug 14, 2007)

SubQ = Sub-Cutaneous (under the fat)


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## arian40 (Jun 17, 2007)

yee, i read a few posts and website about it  cool. nice one anywayz, thank you.


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## tree frog (Apr 3, 2008)

Have to say a most interesting read and have picked up some interesting info, food for thought........thanks.......


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## Batmanuel (Apr 16, 2008)

I'm an inexperienced gear user and my gyno shows it.

Now that I'm doing the necessary research before I start any program I was wondering if I need to run a PCT after Andractim? I know it's a steroid and a PCT should be ran after any steroid use. So what would I use? Nolva?


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

I take it that they gave you Andractim to treat your gyno?

That stuff is basicly DHT that is in a transdermal preperation.

I am sure there would be some shutdown issues associated with that one.

Did you notice any sex drive increase while on Andractim?


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## kingomar (Apr 20, 2008)

hey

if i did a 10 week cycle of

Sustanon -500mg/week

1-6 weeks dbol -30mg/day

What pct should i use??

I have clomid and nolvadex but no hcg

could get some if needed. Nolvadex throughout ?? Or will that impair my gains ??

thanks


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

kingomar said:


> hey
> 
> if i did a 10 week cycle of
> 
> ...


I would get some HCG.

How many days from last jab?


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## lens844 (Apr 24, 2008)

hi, this website is sound but im still quite confused. Im wanting to start my first cycle and am going to use sustanon for 8 weeks (250mg every week).

The PCT really confuses me but think ill do

hcg 500iu/day for 3weeks [starting beginning of week 9essentially]

novaldex 20mgs/day for 6 weeks [starting beginning of week 9]

aromasin 20mgs/day for 4 weeks [starting beginning of week 9]

vit e as well

obviously I realise different combos work best for different people and I need to find what works best for me but in terms of a starting point do you recommend this.

Im only 75kilos so dont want to go overboard on the sust as prob wont be beneficial so i'm starting low but im worried the doses of pct ive reading about are for beasts and maybe I should take lower doses?

Also any benefit in taking nova or hcg throughout the cycle??or can i just leave it all to the end.

thanks


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## gotogym (May 4, 2008)

how long would I be in PCT? and how long do i have to wait after my cycle to go on PCT?

if i wanna start a new cycle, do i need a gap after PCT?

can you take a look at my thread regrading on PCT and 3rd Cycle.

http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/steroid-testosterone-information/32644-3rd-cycle-need-help.html

Im not sure what i need to do!

Thanks you

Steve,


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Guys, you need to figure out how long the esters need to clear your body before you start PCT.

You are asking very generic questions and this thread was started to help others to understand what is needed to do to start a PCT, and not only that but when to start.

You are welcome to start a new thread and ask your questions.......

All PCT questions are welcome but many if not all are individual to each person and even that for the most part is dependant on gear, time on, age, genetic disposition, personal recovery, and so on..........

I understand your concerns guys, but PCT has a big individuality concern to be able to deal with........

It has nothing to do with how big you get on cycle but what you keep after a cycle........That is all that matters.............


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## mac08 (May 5, 2008)

hi i am i newbie ,not sure if its ok to ask here or not, ive just started 4ml of sus a week , might start deca as well but just going with the sus at the min,dont have a glue when to start or what ant-estrogen to take someone had said SAN Estrodex ,alot of my mates take nothing ,im just not sure when to start it or which one there that many diff one out there,any info would be great thanks


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Why not start your own thread bro?

4ml is alot of sust for a newbie, you could easily get away with half that no problems.


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## dudeson (May 8, 2007)

hey, thanks for being so thorough with this thread. I have meaning to get up and cook dinner for almost an hour now, but I couldn't stop reading, it's so informative. TBH, I ran a short cycle of winny and tbol, 50mg and 70mg, and didn't have a clue about pct. I didn't see any shrinkage or lebido probs, but it scares me that I was so uninformed. I will definately be running the hcg throughout, and then some nova and clomid, it's not that cheap to add the nova but getting your body back online is very important, I don't understand from what you were saying why anyone wouldn't. But I learned so much just from this one thread. It's finally time to eat


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## Bison (May 11, 2008)

I'm considering and researching a 10-12 week test only cycle for my first cycle - I haven't decided which test yet, or how much - I still intend to research that further.

So far I've been focusing on ensuring I get the correct PCT plan put together.

I'm slightly confused as I've seen different advice/ideas on combinations etc. I would plan on using both Nolvadex and Clomid.

*Nolvadex;*

option 1. 4 weeks at 40/20/20/20 mg/day

option 2. 4 weeks at 40/40/20/20 mg/day

option 3. 3 weeks at 40/20/20 mg/day

*Clomid;*

option 1. 3 weeks at 50 mg/day

option 2. 30 days at 150/100/50 mg/day

From your experiences what advice can you give me in terms of what's the best combination of options or is it a matter of personal preference with all options being equally suitable?

bison


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

The advice I suggested in the article actually.

I dont think it is more the mentality that more is better.

I think the mentality is what works does not need more.

More meds, more sides.

use what works nothing less, nothing more.


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## itraininthedark (Oct 3, 2007)

what should the correct PCT protocol be fro coming off a cycle of Prop 500mg/w Equi 500mg/w Dbol 40mg a day.. people keep saying differnt things and my head might as well be up my **** now.. any ideas anyone.. read on another thread eating a womans placenta helps?? he he he


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

How long was the cycle for?

Did you do any HCG during?


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## itraininthedark (Oct 3, 2007)

its 8 week cycle mate, not run HCG throughout.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Well, the start time will be 3 weeks from last EQ jab.

You probably could use some HCG in there.

Some clomid and nolva would be good.

The amounts depend on the person, the amount of time on, and the amount of gear used.

some guys recover very well, some dont.


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## tms1978 (Jun 8, 2008)

Hey hackskii, wanted to say thanks for all the info on here, you're the oracle of pct info! lol


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

tms1978 said:


> Hey hackskii, wanted to say thanks for all the info on here, you're the oracle of pct info! lol


thanks, too many times before I ever got it just right, and even then you have to tweak things.


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## Kazza61 (Jun 14, 2008)

Hi - just joined!

This thread seems to be wrestling with what is currently causing my biggest headache (and potentially my smallest balls by the sound of it!).

Having trained for over 30 years (and being nearly 47 years old), I have acheived rather limited results in the BB game (I'm starting to wish I'd gone for darts now!). I've now decided to see what the chemists can do for a life long hard-gainer like myself.

My research starting point was Mick Hart's 'Layman's' Guides and at this point in time, I now have a cabinet full of pronabol, Sustanon and Deca Durabolin. To go with these, I have some Nolvadex and Clomid. I also have a few pots of Clenbuterol too. (Oh, and some Milk Thistle?!)

I had planned the following: A Pronabol course, break, Pronabol + Deca course, break, and finally (for this part of the master plan anyway), a Pronabol + Sust course.

Following Mick Hart's advice, I had planned to use Nolvadex throughout all the courses (and maybe use Clen after all of them too). The other part of my program would be to use Clomid after all the courses in pretty much the way that has been described on this thread as a PCT.

My concern is, that despite hours and hours of online research, I have seen no-one recommending the use of Nolvadex throughout a cycle. The principle seems reasonably sound (protection from being invited to join in wet T-Shirt contests and having bigger boobs that my wife all sounds good to me), but why isn't anyone else promoting this?

Now I know there'll be about 100 potential responses telling me the steroid courses I plan are crap, rubbish, too soon, too late, not enough etc (and everyone is of course welcome to their opinion - if we all had the same views life would be pretty boring!), but if I could just get some views on this Nolvadex issue, I'd be incredibly grateful.

My thanks to anyone kind enough to respond.


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## MXD (Jan 23, 2008)

Nothing wrong with a low dose of nolva 10mg say on cycle as it helps keep your cholesterol profiles sweet.

Nolva does decrease IGF-1 by 22%-27%. So weigh it up.

Id much rather feel the need for a aromatise inhibitor to keep water off and incase of gyno.

If you are estro prone you can then just up the AI and nolva.

Clomid and nolva taken together will also be better than taking only one.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

I would suggest an aromatase inhibitor over nolva during a cycle.

If you made this post in the steroid section under a new thread you will probably get more repsonces.


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## Kazza61 (Jun 14, 2008)

Thanks MXD.

Thanks also hackskii -- I'll take your advice and start a new thread!


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## GetNbig (Jun 30, 2008)

this explains more in this one thread than any research i have done on internet....well done :thumb:


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## tommy y (Apr 7, 2008)

so is it possible to over use hcg? i have recently come off my contest diet an ran test enanthanate for three weeks with prop, as a kind of rebound course. shoudl i wait two weeks before introducing hcg? i have been using tamoxifen at 20-40mg/day for the majority of the course both pre an post contest, is tamoxifen a viable replacement for nolvadex? i mainly used the tamoxifen to stop bitch tit, i'm not exactly an expert on pct so any advice would be much appreciated


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

tamoxifen is nolvadex.

When are you going to start PCT?


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## darkstar (Jan 6, 2007)

Im week three of PCT 50mg clomid ED and 20 mgNolva ED.

The first week i did two shots of HCG at 1000iu.

During week two my sex drive was up.

Now its flat. I got it up yesterday but i just am not that interested.

Id like to boost back up.

Also playing a factor here is ive been enduring a bad back injury, still i can tell sex drive is pretty much gone .One more thing i should add my nuts have deffinatly returned to full size. I actually thought they had not atropied but i now know that they did.

I was thinking i should try some more HCG ?and keep runnning the clomid and nolva.

What do yall think?


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## tommy y (Apr 7, 2008)

not sure when to start pct, should i start it now?its been two weeks since i finished on prop and enanthanate.


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## darkstar (Jan 6, 2007)

My understanding tommy is start PCT three weeks from last jab of the enan.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

darkstar said:


> Im week three of PCT 50mg clomid ED and 20 mgNolva ED.
> 
> The first week i did two shots of HCG at 1000iu.
> 
> ...


Yes, more HCG and probably more clomid too.



tommy y said:


> not sure when to start pct, should i start it now?its been two weeks since i finished on prop and enanthanate.


How many mg's of the enanthate did you shoot 2 weeks ago?

If you did anything around 500mg then fine, you can start now.

If you did like a G of enanthate then you will have to wait another week.


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## damoo8 (Jun 22, 2008)

what are the risks of not carrying out PCT?

thanks.


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## darkstar (Jan 6, 2007)

damoo8 said:


> what are the risks of not carrying out PCT?
> 
> thanks.


Dude trust me done even think about that.

Its bad ,way bad.


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## darkstar (Jan 6, 2007)

Originally Posted by darkstar

Im week three of PCT 50mg clomid ED and 20 mgNolva ED.

The first week i did two shots of HCG at 1000iu.

During week two my sex drive was up.

Now its flat. I got it up yesterday but i just am not that interested.

Id like to boost back up.

Also playing a factor here is ive been enduring a bad back injury, still i can tell sex drive is pretty much gone .One more thing i should add my nuts have deffinatly returned to full size. I actually thought they had not atropied but i now know that they did.

I was thinking i should try some more HCG ?and keep runnning the clomid and nolva.

What do yall think?

"Yes, more HCG and probably more clomid too."BY HACKSKII

Well Scott how much more i got plenty.

Maybe 2000 iu HCG EOD for a week and keep up the clomid up to 100 mg ED and why not keep the nolva at 20 mg ED > since ill be on the HCG for a week.

My nuts are back to full size but im deffinatly not back.

I was looking into MACA the root.

I posted up ,under supplements.


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## damoo8 (Jun 22, 2008)

darkstar said:


> Dude trust me done even think about that.
> 
> Its bad ,way bad.


i still need my question answering i dont feel that iv been enlightened yet :confused1: :confused1: :confused1: :confused1: :confused1:


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## Kazza61 (Jun 14, 2008)

I know I'll be considered nieive, but I think damoo8's query is one that deserves some real discussion. Looking back to the 60's and 70's (and 80's to a lesser extent), PCT wasn't even considered or available. In the main those guys would be knocking back Dbol like smarties and pumping their butts full of Deca/Test - but I don't recall any nipple based horror stories from those days? Nor do I recall anyone retiring from regular competition due to gyno - or even seeing early symtoms of gyno on stage or in the mags (and my mag collection is made up of several thousands going right back to 1898 right up to present day!).

Did anyone compete back then and has some real examples of guys getting into estrogen hell? Or did those guys use less than we use today, or did they use something else to address estrogen problems that I'm not aware of?

(Please don't think I'm knocking all the great PCT advice going on here - just fascinated by what whould have been the case in the days of my heroes!)


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

They probably just used less back then.

They used to taper too back then.

Maybe that is the secret?


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## Kazza61 (Jun 14, 2008)

Maybe.......But I believe some of those guys were really whacking it away and then some! From a very early age some of them too!

You know, when I first started training (over 30 years ago), I wanted to be just like the stars of then; Arnold, Ferrigno, Nubret etc. Older guys used to say "Nah, Grimek, Park and Reeves are the REAL bodybuilders -- your guys are just pumped up on steroids!" I looked at these guys like there were just out of touch tossers!

These days, I still dream of being like Arnold, Ferrigno or Nubret and now it is me who thinks the stars of today are the ones who are just 'pumped up on steroids'! Hmmm.....so I guess I just firmly put myself in the old fart bracket!

But I can't help thinking that my heroes achieved their incredible physiques in a far less complicated way than the way we go at it today. And if I could achieve that style of physique rather than the beer belly look of today's stars, I'd be one very happy man!

Pass me those dessicated liver tabs will ya........


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## The Chauffeur (Dec 3, 2007)

*Post Cycle Therapy (PCT)*

*
By: Anthony Roberts*

After a cycle, we have one goal: to hold onto the gains we made during the cycle. Unfortunately, this is easier said than done, because the levels of various hormones and other substances that were circulating around your body during the cycle (huge amounts of testosterone, insulin-like growth factor, growth hormone, and lower amounts of muscle-wasting glucocorticoids) are now changing. Sadly, they are making way for lower amounts of the hormones we want for building muscle, and higher amounts of the catabolic ones. What needs to be done, as quickly as possible, is to get your body to begin production of your own natural anabolic hormones, and produce less of the catabolic ones. Unfortunately, your body has other plans.

But then, so do I&#8230;

&#8230;and I'm very confident that this protocol will allow you to recover your own natural hormonal levels quickly and lose far less of the gains you worked so hard for on the cycle. This protocol, which is typically implemented after a cycle is called "Post Cycle Therapy" or "PCT" for short.

First, I'm going to tell you what anabolic hormones are typically low when a cycle ends, and which catabolic ones are high, then I'll tell you what drugs can change that condition as fast as possible. Is all of this necessary? No, not at all. You can skip to the end of the article and look for a little chart I made - the extent of my computer skill - which has all of the dosage recommendations and compounds involved to properly recover from your cycle. I think, however, that you'll see some very odd recommendations if you simply skip to the end, and will find yourself reading through the whole article to find out where they came from - or maybe you'll just try to find out what's gotten into me?

I'm not re-inventing the wheel here, and you may have seen a piece of this information elsewhere (possibly in something I've written, possibly somewhere else on the internet or in a magazine), but I'm sure of two things:

* You've never seen this PCT protocol anywhere

* This is the most effective PCT you'll ever see

First, I'll give you a brief explanation on the body and how it works, and why there's a lag-time after the cessation of Anabolic Steroids before the body returns to normal. Remember, during this lag-time you lose gains, so we really need to make it as short as possible. First, we need to understand a bit of what is going on in your body, what causes it to happen naturally, and what hormones are performing what function. Don't worry, I'll try to make it painless.

At the age of puberty, Gonadatropin Releasing Hormone (GnRH) is increasingly released from the Hypothalamus, in turn causing the secretion of Follicle Stimulating Hormone (FSH) and Luetenizing Hormone (LH) from the pituitary, and finally the male gonads (testes) are then stimulated by those pituitary hormones (LH and FSH). (1). FSH, although generally thought to only have a role in production of sperm, actually aids the in regulation of Leydig Cell function (2), while LH directly causes the Leydig Cells in the testes to secrete androgenic hormones such as testosterone (which is causes a surge in other anabolic hormones: Insulin Like Growth Factor, Growth Hormone, etc&#8230. Androgens do this by then targeting other tissues inside the body, either by attaching to the Androgen Receptors (AR), which are found primarily in the cytoplasm of specific cells, or by what's known as non-receptor mediated effects. When an androgen (your own natural testosterone or an anabolic steroid you've injected or ingested) binds to a receptor inside the cell, it activates the transcription of specific genes. What does this mean? Don't worry, it just means that the steroid molecule gives the cell a message to do something. In the case of testosterone, for example, one of the messages it sends to the cell is to increase nitrogen retention in your body, thus allowing you to use more of the protein you take in, and build more muscle. In the case of testosterone (or anabolic steroids in general), this transcription causes a lot of different anabolic effects to take place: an increase in IGF, a decrease in cortisol, an increase in Red Blood Cell count, and the increased protein synthesis I already told you about. This is not to say that AR binding is the only thing that causes anabolic or androgenic effects, however. Oxymetholone and Methandrostenolone (Anadrol and Dianabol) both bind very weakly to the AR yet are both highly anabolic and androgenic. The diagram below is an example of an androgen's entry into a target cell, where it (in this case) stimulates protein synthesis, which is a major anabolic effect:










Under the control of this heightened state of androgens, you also go through androgenic development as well as anabolic development. This can be seen in puberty when males grow body hair experience voice changes, as experience genital development and growth.

Another characteristic of androgens in the body is that they are subject to what's known as a "negative feedback loop". Lets review one of the first things I mentioned, ok? Your Hypothalamus secretes GnRH, thus making the pituitary secrete LH & FSH, finally in turn causing the testes to stimulate the Leydig cells to produce testosterone (by conversion of cholesterol), remember? Ok, now, once testosterone is created however, it has the ability to in turn to undergo various metabolic processes that will inhibit GnRH, which in turn inhibits the secretion of LH and FSH, and that brings a halt to natural testosterone production. Once testosterone has stopped being produced, it no longer sends this negative signal, and GnRH eventually begins to do its job again. In this way, your body prevents excess hormones from being secreted and thus maintaining homeostasis (the status quo&#8230; in this case a state where you are neither gaining nor losing muscle) (1). This negative feedback loop is partially why we use anabolic steroids&#8230;we want more testosterone for anabolic purposes (or more Anavar or whatever) than our body will let us produce (not that our bodies produce Anavar, but you get the idea). When we use that injectable testosterone, it sends the message to our body to begin the negative feedback loop and discontinue producing/secreting the hormones that cause our natural testosterone production. The chart below clearly shows this process, displaying both the negative and positive feedback system(s):










So what I'm saying is that anabolic steroids increase androgen levels in the blood, bringing a halt to GnRH, making the pituitary gland (eventually) responds by reducing the release of LH; this loss of LH has the effect of shutting down testosterone, of course, which you know is produced by the Leydig cells in the testes after they are stimulated by LH. Am I being repetitive? Yes. Do you need to understand all of this in order to understand the PCT protocol I'm about to outline? Yes. Remember, the negative feedback loop is, of course, no problem while we are on a cycle. Want more testosterone (or androgens) in your body? Fill up a few more syringes!

But all good things come to an end, and most of us choose to end our cycles at some point. At this point, while there is still some androgens floating around in us, our natural production won't begin, and even once they are out, there may be some lag time before your body figures out that it needs to start producing its own androgens again. As I said before, this lag time is severely catabolic and it's where you lose a lot of your gains. SO what we need to do is coax the body into quickly producing its own androgens.

One of the first drugs we'll consider for this purpose is what is typically called a SERM. Nolvadex (Tamoxifen) is a SERM (Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulator, which means that it has the ability to act as an anti-estrogen with regard to certain genes, yet also acting as an estrogen with respect to others. That's the "selective" part I guess. It does this by blocking gene transcription in some cases, and initiating gene transcription in others (3). Luckily for us, it has estrogenic effects on bones (meaning it increases their density), and blood lipids -meaning it lowers cholesterol-, (4)(5)as well as preventing gynocomastia by preventing estrogen gene transcription in breast tissue. However, it acts as an anti-estrogen in the pituitary, thus increasing LH and FSH, which results in an increase in testosterone. 20mgs of Nolvadex will raise your testosterone levels about 150% (6)...Nolvadex actually has quite a few applications for the steroid using athlete. First and foremost, it's most common use is for the prevention of gynocomastia. Nolvadex does this by actually competing for the receptor site in breast tissue, and binding to it. Thus, we can safely say that the effect of tamoxifen is through estrogen receptor blockade of breast tissue (7).

Estrogen is also important for a properly functioning immune system, and not only that, but your lipid profile (both HDL and LDL) should also show marked improvement with administration of tamoxifen (34).

Nolvadex also has some important features for the steroid using athlete. In hypogonadic and infertile men given nolvadex, increases in the serum levels of LH, FSH, and most importantly, testosterone were all observed (35)It can also block a bit of estrogen in the pituitary, which is a great benefit when used with HCG (more on that later) (36)(37). The increase in testosterone Nolvadex can give someone with a dysfunctional is basically that 20mgs of Nolvadex will raise your testosterone levels about 150% (6)...Why don't we use Clomid, another SERM? Well, basically because it takes much more to do the same thing. In comparison, it would require 150mgs of Clomid to accomplish that type of elevation in testosterone, but Nolvadex also has the added benefit of significantly increasing the LH (Leutenizing Hormone) response to LHRH (LH-releasing hormone) (6). This most likely indicates some kind of upregulation of the LH-receptors due to the anti-estrogenic effect Nolvadex has at the pituitary. Although both Nolvadex and Clomid are both SERMs, they are actually quite different. As you already know, Nolvadex is highly anti-estrogenic at the hypothalamus and pituitary, while Clomid exhibits weak estrogenic activity at the pituitary (7), which as you can guess, is less than ideal. It should be avoided for the PCT I'm suggesting&#8230;and in fact, avoided in general&#8230;it's simply not as good as Nolvadex.

Need I even add that the 150mgs of Clomid you need to get the hormonal increase experienced with 20mgs of Nolvadex is much more expensive? So lets dump the Clomid&#8230;and no, using it along with Nolvadex will provide no "synergy" that I've ever seen in any relevant study.

SO how much Nolvadex should you use during PCT? I favor using 20mgs.day, although to be totally honest, you can probably even get away with far less than that. Doses as low as 5mgs/day have proven to be as effective as 20mgs/day for certain areas of gonadal stimulation. (8) 20mgs/day, however, is a dose that myself and others have used with great success, and the research I've done in this area typically uses this milligram amount. SO lets stick with 20mgs/day for now.

So that effectively suggests Nolvadex can not be used at Mega-doses to get a mega-increase in your natural hormones. We can't use huge doses of any Anti-Estrogen, actually, and expect huge increases in our natural hormones, actually. Arimidex (an Aromatase Inhibitor -which means it stops the conversion of testosterone into estrogen-another drug used to fight breast cancer like Nolvadex) exhibits basically the same effects when .5mgs or a full 1mg is used (9) and I have even read studies where up to 10mgs/day of Arimidex is studied with no clear benefit over 1mg/day. Letrozole (another Aromatase Inhibitor) is capable of inhibiting Aromatase maximally at a mere 100mcg/day (10.). So clearly we need to add in other compounds to our PCT, because Mega-Doses of one compound will not I think it's absurdly funny to see people recommending upwards 40-80mgs/day of Nolvadex, or a full milligram (or two!) of Arimidex, in their post-cycle or on-cycle suggestions. I'd steer very clear of listening to anyone who makes those types of recommendations&#8230;

All of this tells me that you can't simply use mega-doses of Anti-Estrogens or SERMS to do anything more than reasonable doses. It must be, therefore, that your body can only respond with so much vigor to any one drug in those families. So lets add in another drug or two, ok? This way we can use reasonable doses of a few drugs and produce some synergy&#8230;hopefully decreasing our recovery time.

We'll need something to go with Nolvadex, which acts in a different manner, and Human Chorionic Gonadatropin (HCG) is the clear choice here. Here's where things get a bit controversial (no, really&#8230;I know you , because I'm pretty much the only person around (currently) who recommends HCG for Post-Cycle Therapy. Although I'm seen as Old School in this respect, really, this is a totally new paradigm for HCG use, made possible only by the inclusion of the other compounds I am introducing to you for PCT. HCG is the natural choice, as it has been used successfully to cure AAS induced (11), and this alone warrants its inclusion to our cycle.

HCG is a peptide hormone manufactured by the embryo in the early stages of pregnancy and later by the placenta to help control a pregnant woman's hormones (can anything really be said to control a pregnant woman's hormones except ice-cream and chocolate?). Obviously, as you can guess from the name, it is a substance that stimulates the gonads (hence: gonadotropin). It does this by initiating gene transcription that is identical to that of Luetenizing Hormone, thereby causing the Leydig Cells to produce testosterone. Sounds great right? We can stimulate LH and FSH production with our Nolvadex, and then directly stimulate the Leydig Cells as well, to produce tons of testosterone by different routes! Well...it's not all that simple.

Unfortunately, while HCG increases Testosterone, it increases estrogen as well(12). As you probably know, estrogen acts directly on the Leydig cells to effect changes in the activities of enzymes important for testosterone synthesis (13) and may actually be considered an important part of that negative feedback loop I mentioned earlier. In addition, an increase in circulating levels of LH have been shown to induce down-regulation of LH-receptors in both rodent studies (14), as well as in human studies (15); since HCG mimics LH, you can expect it to do the same. This LH downregulation can cause an increase in steroidogenic cholesterol (the cholesterol earmarked by your body for conversion into testosterone). (16). Thus, after the initial HCG induced surge in testosterone is over, if you have used enough to downregulate your LH-receptors and increase estrogen too much, then more steroidogenic cholesterol is available. This is telling me that less is being converted to testosterone. In fact, rodent models suggest that if you take a dose large enough to cause a sharp increase of plasma testosterone, you will actually desensitize your Leydig cells to your next shot, and will possibly not experience any rise in testosterone from the second dose at all, or may only experience a very slight one at best (17.). Since this is due to LH-Receptor downregulation, and that occurs in human models too, it is pretty fair to assume that if your first dose of HCG is too large, your second won't be very effective. Unfortunately, this lack of an increase in testosterone doesn't necessarily mean that the HCG may be unable to increase circulating levels of Estrogen (18) And remember that increase in Estrogen will (most likely) cause your body ultimately to produce less testosterone. Low LH post-cycle is not the primary cause of slow recovery, because LH generally rises to levels above baseline after a cycle much sooner than testosterone production does. This is probably because the pituitary is working very hard to get your atrophied Leydig cells to start producing testosterone again. HCG should also bring back testicular volume; I feel the need to mention this because it's important to me and I suspect most men as well. It would also appear that HCG works very well when it's used on men who have low levels of LH to begin with (as you would be after a cycle), as many studies on pre-pubertal boys and Hypogonadotropic Hypogonadal men would suggest (19)

This suggests that a pre-exposure to normal LH levels or gonadatropins in general is necessary for HCG-induced Leydig Cell desensitization. This, of course is not a problem for us, as we'll be using it when LH/Gonadatropin levels are very low anyway &#8230;we just need to stop using it before we regain normal function, or it will work against us eventually. (19) (20). Luckily, the temporary Anabolic steroid induced hypogonadism that is experienced after a cycle basically allows us to respond to HCG like anyone with low LH levels (21), and thus, as I told you, a lot of the possible inhibitory effect of HCG is not going to be relevant because there was no prior "priming" by circulating gonadotrophins. This is great news for us, because we are going to be using HCG during PCT, when we need to get back some HPTA function, and not when we have levels of gonadatropins high enough to cause HCG-induced desensitization.

But are we still risking some inhibition and possibly delaying our recovery by using HCG? Probably not&#8230;you see, some studies in humans have shown that HCG does not actually have a direct effect on inhibiting LH release in men (22)(23), but rather (probably) works to inhibit LH secretion indirectly, simply by stimulating the production of testosterone (thus activating the negative feedback loop). Another factor involved is the induction of testicular aromatase, which raises estrogen levels, again causing inhibition. Unfortunately, yet another process, the downregulation of the Leydig Cell LH receptor itself, seems to also play a role in high dose HCG testicular desensitization. This is also done by HCG actually blocking the conversion of 17 alpha-hydroxyprogesterone (17 OHP) to testosterone (24). Nolvadex actually stops this blocking-action of HCG from taking place (25). Most likely, because of Nolvadex's direct antiestrogenic effect and LH-upregulating effect on the Pituitary, suppression of gonadotropins via HCG is (25) almost totally stopped with concurrent administration of Nolvadex! So if we Use Nolvadex and we are only using HCG when we are low in gonadatropins, we won't be inhibited by it at all! Right?

Well&#8230;maybe&#8230;but there's still the issue of estrogen caused by that HCG-stimulated surge in testosterone. Well&#8230;we can use low doses (300iu or so) to avoid some of that major spike in estrogen, and thus cause far less inhibition from the HCG (26). Of course, I'd want to use a bit more HCG per injection (500iu), if I could, to get my body functioning fully more quickly, and lose less of my gains. Maybe we can get away with taking some Vitamin E with our HCG, since it increases the responsiveness of plasma testosterone levels to HCG, making them significantly higher during vitamin E administration than without it (27). So we can get a better response with our HCG by taking Vitamin E (I recommend 1,000iu/day), but that doesn't get rid of the problem that we have, which is the estrogen increase the HCG will cause.

Lets solve that pesky estrogen problem now&#8230;. Lets add in an Aromatase Inhibitor! Which one, though? Well, since we are already using Nolvadex, we can't use Letrozole or Arimidex, as the Nolvadex will actually greatly decrease the blood plasma levels of them (28)!

So we have to use Aromasin (exemestane) as our AI, because it's an aromatase inactivator, meaning it makes estrogen receptors useless, and instead of just inhibiting production (as an anti-aromatase would do) it cuts off production totally. Aromasin can also cause androgenic sides (29)(30)(31), which may help to elevate your mood while you are on PCT. This final drug in my recommended PCT can effectively remove up to about 85%+ of estrogen from your body (32). Most importantly, using Aromasin together with Nolvadex doesn't reduce exemestane's effectiveness (33). So now, I think the problem of ANY inhibition possible with HCG is solved, and we can use that 500iu/day dose that I wanted to use previously.

With this PCT, there will be a rapid increase in LH, FSH, and testosterone, as well as almost a complete block on all the factors that could be causing your natural hormones to be delayed in returning to baseline. For this reason, I feel that the second your cycle is over is when you should start this PCT (a week after your last shot, or the day after your last pill is fine). Remember, waiting for some of the extra androgens you've been taking to leave your body is nonsensical, as we want to start recovery as soon as possible to retain maximum gains. There is no evidence to suggest waiting any length of time after your cycle is over will increase PCT effectiveness&#8230;it simply prolongs the time you aren't doing anything positive to regain your natural hormones. And how long do we run this for? Well&#8230;we need to stop the HCG relatively soon for reasons discussed earlier. But the Nolvadex, and Aromasin can be used for awhile longer. Ideally, we'd be getting weekly blood work, but we could also get it done monthly, and just running this PCT until we see our natural hormones restored&#8230;but weekly bloodwork isn't really an option for most of us. Failing the option of monitoring recovery with blood-work, I'm going to give you my best thoughts on the time you should be running your PCT. It's important to note I haven't discussed nutrition or other compounds that may be beneficial&#8230;this is because in this article, I am primarily concerned with the restoration of hormonal function, nothing else. And with no further delays, here are my recommendations for PCT:

Week Nolvadex HCG Aromasin Vitamin E

1 20mgs/day 500iu/day 20mgs/day 1,000iu/day

2 20mgs/day 500iu/day 20mgs/day 1,000iu/day

3 20mgs/day 500iu/day 20mgs/day 1,000iu/day

4 20mgs/day 20mgs/day

5 20mgs/day

6 20mgs/day


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

I have used that one and I didnt recover.

Seems the HCG was too low, and the non use of clomid didnt allow me to recover.

It is a nice article but in the end success is what we are after and I didnt have success with that one.


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## tommy y (Apr 7, 2008)

hacksii im strugglin to get hold of any hcg, ive got clomid an tamoxifen. any advice as to wat is hould whilst trying to get hold of hcg???


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

HMG if you can get it.


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## tommy y (Apr 7, 2008)

can't get that either, can get hcg next week. wat dose of clomid/ tamoxifen should i take in mean time?


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

tommy y said:


> can't get that either, can get hcg next week. wat dose of clomid/ tamoxifen should i take in mean time?


I would need more details about your last cycle, lenght, gear, amounts, how long since last jab, etc.


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## tommy y (Apr 7, 2008)

my last cousre lasted the duration of my contest diet so roughly twenty weeks, finishin with three weeks of test enanthate antestex. i was takin 1000mg of testex/week and 750mg test enanthanate/week for last three weeks. my last shot was two weeks ago today. tamoxifen has been used throughout 20-40mg/day.


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## itraininthedark (Oct 3, 2007)

tommy y said:


> hacksii im strugglin to get hold of any hcg, ive got clomid an tamoxifen. any advice as to wat is hould whilst trying to get hold of hcg???


hmg... i ran out of hcg a while back and was told clomid at 100 - 150mgs a day would work but would take a longer period of time.. but now i have plenty of hcg so is not a problem. :tongue:


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Is that testex prop, or cyp?

If it is cyp, 1750mg of enanthate/cypionate would probably take a month or even more to clear your system.

20 week cycles will take some time to recover.

I would suggest an aggressive PCT protocol myself, something similar to what I posted on the original post.

You might even crash and you might consider tapering down to avoid some kind of androgen withdrawl.


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## itraininthedark (Oct 3, 2007)

hackskii said:


> Is that testex prop, or cyp?
> 
> If it is cyp, 1750mg of enanthate/cypionate would probably take a month or even more to clear your system.
> 
> ...


where is the original post mate, is it begining of this thread? cheers :laugh:


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

itraininthedark said:


> where is the original post mate, is it begining of this thread? cheers :laugh:


First post.....


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## itraininthedark (Oct 3, 2007)

....jsut as i thought :whistling:


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## darkstar (Jan 6, 2007)

Ill be so happy to get my blood work test results . Sheww should have just gone to a lab.


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## itraininthedark (Oct 3, 2007)

hackskii said:


> Is that testex prop, or cyp?
> 
> If it is cyp, 1750mg of enanthate/cypionate would probably take a month or even more to clear your system.
> 
> ...


what would be agood way of tapering down froim cycle such a cycle ie. 1000mg test enanth per week over a period of 20weeks..for the last few weeks would it be best to cut down to 500mg per week.. then 250mg etc.. and then to do an agrresive PCT


----------



## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

itraininthedark said:


> what would be agood way of tapering down froim cycle such a cycle ie. 1000mg test enanth per week over a period of 20weeks..for the last few weeks would it be best to cut down to 500mg per week.. then 250mg etc.. and then to do an agrresive PCT


It will take longer than that, I would try and drop it 100mg a week, and see, if you are feeling any crashing sympstoms going under 400mg you will need to taper that longer.

If you havent used an AI, I probably would.


----------



## AJW (Jul 14, 2008)

hi hacksi,

a question for you,

i will shortley be running my 1st cycle of test e 250pw with nolva and clomid for pct.

will this affect my balls badly, to put it another way will i need to take something to stop them shrinking etc or at this low, and simple of a course will it not be needed?

Thanks in adavance!


----------



## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

AJW said:


> hi hacksi,
> 
> a question for you,
> 
> ...


What is the length of the cycle?


----------



## AJW (Jul 14, 2008)

im thinking 8 - 10 weeks, what would u reccomend??


----------



## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

HCG would stop them from shrinking.

You can try to get away with just the clomid and nolva, 250mg isnt all that supressive, and 8 to 10 weeks is not all that long.

It would not hurt at all to use low dose HCG with that cycle. It would make recovery easier in the end.


----------



## borisisok (Mar 10, 2008)

Just coming off my 10week course. Family planning on the agenda so i wondered if you have any input on the sperm count issue. Not been checked yet, but just looking in to the options and experiences of the others.

By the way, does Proviron have any place in your PCT, if not where would you place it? And you mentioned not to stay on HCG for too long, does that include during the lenghty course, if you are running it EOD?

Your suggestions on PCT will be defo part of my next post contest treatement. HCG during the course,def.

Thank you


----------



## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Well, proviron might be helpfull for sperm, but not really to bring back your T levels.

Many things are needed to be able to have kids.

There is a product that would be perfect for you, that would be HMG.

HCG is an LH analog and mimics LH.

HMG has 75iu/150iu (depending on which one) of LH and FSH.

If you can get that, then recovery for having kids would be cut down by months.

It can take up to a year for recovery so you can have kids, that is a long time.

HMG can be taken by men for fertility.

If you could do a PCT with HMG in it, man, recovery would be way faster.

Only hitch is it is very expensive.

Sourcing it might be a problem too.

I found a place but I cant seem how to order it, or cant find the price.......

I have seen the prices before and I can only say it is very expensive.


----------



## borisisok (Mar 10, 2008)

F... me! That was quick and prompt reply! Thank you my man.

So would you do proviron in PCT? And HMG, do you know how and when is taken in regards of course end, and subject of this thread?

I wil look up the HMG price and source, never heard of it.

Thanks bro


----------



## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

OK, but so we are clear.

I do not know jack sh!t what makes guys fertile.

I can only go on what I have heard, what I understand (limited), and what I know.......

This what I say is what I would do for myself............


----------



## neverrest (Feb 20, 2008)

What would happen if someone kept using gear and didn't do any PCT's. Just curious, can the marbles fix themself?

Ps. newbie


----------



## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

neverrest said:


> What would happen if someone kept using gear and didn't do any PCT's. Just curious, can the marbles fix themself?
> 
> Ps. newbie


Yes but there are two schools of thought here.

First some feel that once LH shuts off from the nuts, over time leydig cells desensitize, and once they come back there might not be a great responce, actually lowering test levels.

Another side says everything will come back but it can take years.

I have seen guys do steroids and years later still have problems.


----------



## neverrest (Feb 20, 2008)

My testies getting damaged is the only reason that I haven't considered taking steriods. Over a period of time it must have a detrimental effect which scares me immensely.

Thx you for your reply.


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## GSleigh (Jan 22, 2008)

Wow that was a fantastic read! Now thats a lot of solid good information  Great post.

Some really high dosage figures on the PCT cycles though?! Didnt realize so much would be required


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Well, outside of the HCG issue the doses are not all that high.

The clomid stimulation test they do for guys to determine if they are secondary hypogonadism is 100mg a day for 5 to 7 days, this Doubles LH and 20% to 50% FSH.

I do hear many dudes suggesting to use 250iu but to be honest, this does nothing for me, I still get some atrophy at 500iu twice a week, so I still run some in my PCT, not the full PCT but the start of it.

This last time worked super well using HCG during and the first 2 weeks of my PCT which will last 45 days.

Best recovery ever.

Recovery all hinges on the nuts, if you dont get full testicular function, you wont recover as well. So, guys that dont use enough HCG will take longer to recover.

I have never had a problem with that.

Below is the HCG stimulation test taken from AMERICAN ASSOCIATION OF CLINICAL ENDOCRINOLOGISTS.

hCG Stimulation Test.-Various protocols are used

for hCG stimulation testing. In general for postpubertal

male patients, a single dose of hCG (5,000 IU intramuscularly)

is administered, and pretherapy and 72-hour posttherapy

testosterone measurements are done (some protocols

use 1,000 to 4,000 IU of hCG or multiday dosing)

So, judging by those doses, I am sure the protocol above is safe, plus they come in amps which is a single use application.


----------



## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

hackskii said:


> *This is not a copy and paste.*
> 
> PCT, what does it mean?
> 
> ...


----------



## beanz1 (Jul 5, 2008)

Hey

excellent read.

could you just confirm i read it correctly? administarion of hcg begins at same time as clomid and nolva (i.e 2 weeks after last shot of TEST E.)

the information i was given was start hcg for 2 weeks immediatley after last shot then start nolva and clomid but reading your post it makes sense at 2 weeks after last shot as test levels will have reduced to base levels.

oh 1 more thing if i may. do you prefer sub-q or IM for hcg and is there any difference?

cheers


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Either way on sub-Q or IM, I do sub-q purely for less scar tissue in the IM areas.

I dont want any more scar tissue than needed, every needle will or can offer some scarring.

Not only that but there is unlimited places for areas sub-Q

Yes, start them all at the same time.

HCG aromitizes quite heavily and is dose dependant.

But, recovery is even easier if using low dose HCG during the cycle, and up to PCT.

I did it this way this time and I swear, this recovery was the very easiest ever.


----------



## miles2345 (Mar 26, 2008)

I went to see my gp who is very supportive and gives me a lot of advice, he said that the in his ompinion you should always use arimidex as opposed to nolvadex, as nolvadex partially inhibits aromatization whereas arimidex totally stops it?!

So could you follow the same procedure you mentioned in your original post but just replace nolva with a-dex


----------



## beanz1 (Jul 5, 2008)

hackskii said:


> Either way on sub-Q or IM, I do sub-q purely for less scar tissue in the IM areas.
> 
> I dont want any more scar tissue than needed, every needle will or can offer some scarring.
> 
> ...


cheers for that hacksii. much appreciated:thumb:


----------



## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

miles2345 said:


> I went to see my gp who is very supportive and gives me a lot of advice, he said that the in his ompinion you should always use arimidex as opposed to nolvadex, as nolvadex partially inhibits aromatization whereas arimidex totally stops it?!
> 
> So could you follow the same procedure you mentioned in your original post but just replace nolva with a-dex


WEll, he is right and kind of not right.

Nolvadex is a selective estrogen receptor modulator (SERM), it is a mixed agonist and antagonist for estrogen, It acts like a estrogen to some tissues like the liver, and the prostate (assuming), yet acts like an anti-estrogen for breast tissue and the HPTA.

An AI is an aromatase inhibitor meaning it will slow the conversion from testosterone to estrogen via way of the aromatase enzyme.

Doing so, lowers SHBG and circulating estrogens.

I have always said to use an AI during a cycle and adex is my favorite one due to the long half life and it not being so hard on lipids.


----------



## miles2345 (Mar 26, 2008)

so is it another one to use 'as well as' rather than instead of


----------



## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

miles2345 said:


> so is it another one to use 'as well as' rather than instead of


I am not sure what you are asking.

As well as an AI being as good as a SERM for recovery?

As well as a SERM reversing gyno as well as an AI?

Not sure the question bro, sorry.


----------



## geezuz (Oct 29, 2007)

Hackskii, great post mate, thanks. Only it struck me, what if you are already using say Nolva or clomid ON cycle for gyno reasons, how do you then initiate PCT with the same medicines?? :confused1:


----------



## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

If you are asking if there is benefit running nolva and clomid during a cycle then my answer would be this: It would not do anything to aid in recovery.

You wont need both of those to do the job of keeping gyno in check.


----------



## swifttorres (Sep 2, 2008)

bro just a question, i'm running a cycle of 8-10 weeks of test P and Eq, with 1-4 weeks of D-bol for kickstart with proviron through the cycle. will my PCT of clomid @ 50mg ED and 20mg ED nolvadex, 25mg proviron ED for 3 weeks help me recover. i'm not able to get any HCG.

Thanks


----------



## swifttorres (Sep 2, 2008)

and can i throw in some clen for PCT too


----------



## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

swifttorres said:


> bro just a question, i'm running a cycle of 8-10 weeks of test P and Eq, with 1-4 weeks of D-bol for kickstart with proviron through the cycle. will my PCT of clomid @ 50mg ED and 20mg ED nolvadex, 25mg proviron ED for 3 weeks help me recover. i'm not able to get any HCG.
> 
> Thanks


How much are you using of each compound in mg per week?



swifttorres said:


> and can i throw in some clen for PCT too


Yes you can.......


----------



## geezuz (Oct 29, 2007)

hackskii said:


> If you are asking if there is benefit running nolva and clomid during a cycle then my answer would be this: It would not do anything to aid in recovery.
> 
> You wont need both of those to do the job of keeping gyno in check.


Well i meant that some use these medicines throughout the cycle as to keep oestrogen in check so when they arrive to PCT what do they do then if already taking either of them? Double the dose? Come off for a week? Cheers


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Well, I am a firm believer that if you want to control estrogen, you use an AI, this will lower overall estrogen and thus lower the chance of side effects.

Nolva and clomid only block the receptor sites, an AI will lower overall estrogen, then when PCT comes time to start clomid and nolva would work just fine.

No need to double anything really, it will block the receptors (nolva, clomid), and more wont work any better.


----------



## paulo (Feb 17, 2007)

what about 6 weeks turanabol only -pct wise?


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

paulo said:


> what about 6 weeks turanabol only -pct wise?


Im sure you can get away with clomid and nolva, or even clomid alone.

Shoot for 21 days clomid, doubtfull you will be really supressed with a non aromitizable steroid.


----------



## geezuz (Oct 29, 2007)

hackskii said:


> Well, I am a firm believer that if you want to control estrogen, you use an AI, this will lower overall estrogen and thus lower the chance of side effects.
> 
> Nolva and clomid only block the receptor sites, an AI will lower overall estrogen, then when PCT comes time to start clomid and nolva would work just fine.
> 
> No need to double anything really, it will block the receptors (nolva, clomid), and more wont work any better.


Got it, so Proviron or a-dex during cycle and the rest for PCT then, cheers. :thumb:


----------



## geezuz (Oct 29, 2007)

paulo said:


> what about 6 weeks turanabol only -pct wise?


Mate i did that 6 weeker and finished like HACKSKII suggested, not too surpressive but hey we are all individual.

Thanks.


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## BBBoy (Sep 16, 2008)

Hi Scott,

Great post man! A question from my side:

The cycle I'm on is not that aggressive (I think).


20mg D-bol per day for 10 weeks

300 mg Nomatest Combo 300 for per week for 10 weeks


(I'm in my 4th week of the cycle)

Do you think I will need to do any PCT? And it so, what would you suggest?

Help will be appreciated

BBB


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Yah you will need to do PCT, but the real question here is if it is SERMs alone or with the use of HCG, due to some dudes recovery is far better than others (probably influenced by age too), it is hard to say.

How many mg of the norma are you taking and what is it, I dont know the names of all the gears.

Combo meaning deca and test, or a test blend?


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

How much test E?

How old are you?

The idea that you lost your bodyfat is a good idea when considering a cycle, for a few reasons.

I can not suggest anything till you tell me how much, or at the very least how young.

Young guys bounce back way faster than us old farts....lol

Sorry, had a few beers for my Friday weekend posting.....lol.....no really, ...........lol...


----------



## Guest (Oct 18, 2008)

Hey Scott. It is finally time for my PCT question. I have 30 c prop (100mg/ml) and am planning to staying fairly low... I think 300 maybe 400 mg/wk. I have not decided if I am going to throw in some EQ as I have been reading you have to take 600ml/wk or more. My friend has a bottle and a half of 10ml 200mg/ml EQ so i am not even sure its enough. If I eat extremely clean and do cardio can I build lean, burn fat and stay hard with just the prop in your opinion?? Like I said I have some of the gear and can get the rest(except hcg) but I am in NO hurry to start until I get myself more educated on whats going into my body, and the best way to run things.

I do not have hcg available to me. I do have arimi, clomid and nolva avaivable. I really value your advice here as I want to take this pct serious. 10 years back I had never even heard of pct. Could you please lay out how I should properly take the arimi, clomid and/or nolva and when I should take them, based on my gear.

I am 30 years old 5'11 213 lbs 14% bf

Thanks, B


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

So that is 375mg a week for 8 weeks propionate?

Or 428.5mg for 7 weeks?

Or 500mg a week for 6 weeks?

I would do the 6 week option.

You can run the AI during the cycle light dose, then clomid and nolva for PCT.

I would start the PCT 3 days from last jab, EOD shots on the prop.

As far as the amounts, that really would depend on if clomid gives you sides, I use 100mg myself a day, and 20mg nolva a day.

6 week cycles are not that supressive so HCG probably wont even be needed here.


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## Guest (Oct 18, 2008)

I am thinking the 8 week cycle. I think my body will respond well as it always has to any dosage in the past. I have been clean for 10 years and want to stay with a moderate dosage that will still produce some gains.

Regarding the AI. You say to run that during the cycle at a moderate dose. What would a moderate does be for myself given the gear i am using?? So I start the clomid and and nolva 3 days from last jab. Then how long should I keep up on that??? Any recommendations on the the dose I should use on those 2?? I have no clue. I know you said 100mg/clomid and 20mg/nolva for you but I am not sure if that means it would be appropriate for myself..

Thanks


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Adex can be run (due to its long half life) twice a week, but if estrogen sides increase then you can take more frequently.

I just use .5 twice a week for starters, then if I notice any bloating or any sides at all, I will do EOD same dose.

My idea is I only want to supress estrogen to just around base levels, I find myself recovery is easier if I manage estrogen.

After all, estrogen is necessary to some extent for muscle gains, lipid profile, bone density, and libido, so the idea is not to block it all, just some.

I probably have more bellyfat than you do, this in itself can cause more aromitization during a cycle.

You can try 21 days clomid and 30 days nolva, that should get you about there.


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## Guest (Oct 19, 2008)

So in taking the AI twice a week, would you say something like mondays and thursdays?? and then I will take the clomid and nolva for 21 days at 100mg nad 20mg.

Thanks again Scott, I am just trying to have this down exact before i even think about starting.

B


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Run the nolva longer than the clomid at that dose.

Dropping both SERMS same day might cause some estrogen rebounding.


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## BBBoy (Sep 16, 2008)

hackskii said:


> Yah you will need to do PCT, but the real question here is if it is SERMs alone or with the use of HCG, due to some dudes recovery is far better than others (probably influenced by age too), it is hard to say.
> 
> How many mg of the norma are you taking and what is it, I dont know the names of all the gears.
> 
> Combo meaning deca and test, or a test blend?


__________________

Thanks for the response -

It is Nomatest Combo, a 7 ester test blend from Nomad labs (much like Sus). I use 300mg / 1ml per week in conjunction with 20mg D-bol.

What would you suggest in terms of PCT?

Thanks

BBB


----------



## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Clomid and nolva for PCT, but without knowing the esters in that blend I cant even guess when to start it.

Some HCG would be a good idea to keep and maintain testicular function.

I would do no less than 4 weeks on the PCT.

If you get testicular atrophy I would seriously consider HCG.


----------



## slype (Oct 22, 2008)

Hi Hackskii, I am running 500mg Test E e/w for 10 weeks with Nolva to counteract Gyno.

Is 100mg Clomid for 21 days and 40mgs Nolva for for 28 days good PCT or would you recommend adding HGC? If so, what dose for how long in your opinion?

Cheers?


----------



## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

You wont need that much nolva first of all.

If you recover easy then clomid and nolva maybe alright, but tossing in some HCG during the cycle will keep the nuts alive, this will take away down time for them to come online for recovery.

I dont know why you would not use HCG during a cycle.

I use it 500iu twice a week, but you can use as little as 350iu every 3 days or 250 EOD, and if you see atrophy going on then you can bump that up some.

the idea is to keep the nuts stimulated so they dont become lazy, once they are lazy it is like waking up a child that is tired, they just dont want to get up.


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## 3.lions (Nov 1, 2008)

Great thread, I did my 1st cycle of test prop earlier this year, and I based my pct from the info on this thread, I seemed to recover quite well as a result.

I just have a few of questions about my 2nd cycle I'm planning for the new year..

I'm planning a 6wk dianabol only cycle (30mg a day), I was going to run HCG throughout the cycle as I did on my 1st cycle, but I've been told that this isn't a good idea with dbol, is this true?

Also, should pct commence straight after the final day of your course when using dbol?

I was planning on pct lasting for 4 weeks, does that sound about right?


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

It was suggested no HCG during d-bol because both aromitize quite heavily.

But I would suggest that they would work in synergy together, as the d-bol would supress natty test production but HCG would keep endo production alive, so this makes sense to me providing you are using an AI during.

PCT would start next day from last tab, clomid and nolva.


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## Fatboy80 (Feb 27, 2008)

A great read, thanks very much Hacksii.


----------



## ba baracuss (Apr 26, 2004)

zeus87529 said:


> Hey Scott. It is finally time for my PCT question. I have 30 c prop (100mg/ml) and am planning to staying fairly low... I think 300 maybe 400 mg/wk. I have not decided if I am going to throw in some EQ as I have been reading you have to take 600ml/wk or more. My friend has a bottle and a half of 10ml 200mg/ml EQ so i am not even sure its enough. If I eat extremely clean and do cardio can I build lean, burn fat and stay hard with just the prop in your opinion?? Like I said I have some of the gear and can get the rest(except hcg) but I am in NO hurry to start until I get myself more educated on whats going into my body, and the best way to run things.
> 
> I do not have hcg available to me. I do have arimi, clomid and nolva avaivable. I really value your advice here as I want to take this pct serious. 10 years back I had never even heard of pct. Could you please lay out how I should properly take the arimi, clomid and/or nolva and when I should take them, based on my gear.
> 
> ...


Hello mate.

It looks like Hacks has just answered your PCT q's - may I ask why you want to run eq and prop?

Why not just test e, c, or cyp? This means a lot less jabs.


----------



## soze (Nov 3, 2008)

fantastic post, helped me understand pct!!!


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## r6richie (Dec 11, 2008)

hi i am about to start a 4 week cycle on m1t 20 mg a day.. i did a cycle about a year ago of 4 weeks at 10mg a day and had no side effects... but i wanted to find out if my normal testosterone levels will come back without help (chemicals) i normally do one cycle in a 6 month period


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

I have no knowledge of Methyl 1 testosterone.

I can not give advice on this one, sorry.


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## DanP (Dec 11, 2008)

Great thread this one,

Has really helped me gain a better understanding of PCT and the use of juice. I too have a few friends who hadn't even heard of PCT and the effects!

A quick noob question though... I am currently 5, 9' 11st 9lbs and holding 19% fat and wondered why it's so essential to lose the gut before using juice? I have never done any kind of cycle and was about to start reading up on napalon 50's.

Any info would be great or re-direct me to continue my reading!

Regards

Dan


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Well, it is simple, fat guys generally will gain some muscle and fat, lean guys will gain mostly muscle.

When dieting, fat guys tend to lose less muscle in relation to bodyfat than the thin dudes.


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## DanP (Dec 11, 2008)

Thanks for the reply,

Don't wanna change the discussion much so will create a thread in the correct section!

Dan


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## skaman007 (Oct 10, 2008)

hi hacksi,,,i am gonna run my 3rd cycle which will be test e for 8weeks,,at 500mg a week,,now the guys from primordial performance site,,,say that serms are no longer needed and are dangerous,,,and that all you need is their natural product called the testosterone recovery stack,,alongside hcg,,,what are you thoughts on this????many reports on elitefitness .com about it.its confusing me about my pct,.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

skaman007 said:


> hi hacksi,,,i am gonna run my 3rd cycle which will be test e for 8weeks,,at 500mg a week,,now the guys from primordial performance site,,,say that serms are no longer needed and are dangerous,,,and that all you need is their natural product called the testosterone recovery stack,,alongside hcg,,,what are you thoughts on this????many reports on elitefitness .com about it.its confusing me about my pct,.


Thoughts are very simple and I will share with you this little bit of wisdom.

They are poo poo

Anyone that suggests SERMS are inferior to a OTC product is only trying to push their bull crap on the general public.

Yes, I have read all the marketing hype of that crap, and I came to the conclusion it is junk.

If the endo doctors use Clomid @ 100mg a day and after 5 to 7 days this doubles LG responce from the pituitary and increases FSH up to 50% how in the hell can they say it is no longer needed and dangerous?

No, dangerous is using their bullSh!t product waiting for your T levels to return.

Bring them to the board for a debate, that will sort them out fast, and easy.

Profiteers are all they are, they dont care about you, just your money.


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## Reverb (Dec 24, 2008)

I must admit I have never heard of PCT and this thread has really opened my eyes! I have just bought 100 Dianabol 10mg from a good source and I was planning a 4 week course of 20mg per day as it will be my first cycle, will PCT be required for such a low dosage cycle? I refuse to inject any thing so I will have to stick with Clomid & Novaldrex for my PCT but I have no idea how much to take, when to take it and how long I should take it for!?


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## SD (Sep 3, 2004)

Reverb said:


> I must admit I have never heard of PCT and this thread has really opened my eyes! I have just bought 100 Dianabol 10mg from a good source and I was planning a 4 week course of 20mg per day as it will be my first cycle, will PCT be required for such a low dosage cycle? I refuse to inject any thing so I will have to stick with Clomid & Novaldrex for my PCT but I have no idea how much to take, when to take it and how long I should take it for!?


You already have a thread with this question in mate you dont need to duplicate.

You say you refuse to inject anything so will have to stay with Clomid and Nolva, thats fine but the other options, Arimidex etc arent injectable, they are liquid/oral form.

SD


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## Reverb (Dec 24, 2008)

SportDr said:


> You already have a thread with this question in mate you dont need to duplicate.
> 
> You say you refuse to inject anything so will have to stay with Clomid and Nolva, thats fine but the other options, Arimidex etc arent injectable, they are liquid/oral form.
> 
> SD


Ok mate, no worries! I'm still new to this forum so bear with me

I wasen't aware that Arimidex was available In oral format but thanks for the info. All the best mate!


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## Guest (Dec 29, 2008)

hackskii thanks a lot for info!!very good post!!


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

4 week d-bol doses you can get away with clomid and nolva


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## laurie g (Nov 28, 2008)

goood post have a rep to add to your rep savings (fancy making a charitable donation)


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## crazypaver1 (Nov 23, 2008)

i am on sust and primo, is just clomid ok for pct or is clomid and nolva a defo


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

crazypaver1 said:


> i am on sust and primo, is just clomid ok for pct or is clomid and nolva a defo


How much sust and how much promo, and for how long?

Why sust and primo if I may ask?


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## SD (Sep 3, 2004)

hackskii said:


> 4 week d-bol doses you can get away with clomid and nolva


Why do you need both Hacks? Clomid will happily do the same thing as Nolva plus it will increase FSH,LH levels, couldn't you just increase the Clomid dose or just run it as/is.

SD


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

SportDr said:


> Why do you need both Hacks? Clomid will happily do the same thing as Nolva plus it will increase FSH,LH levels, couldn't you just increase the Clomid dose or just run it as/is.
> 
> SD


I guess you could but there is some speculation that clomid actually will make the GnRH receptors in the pituitary less sensitive, the nolva helps here, other than that yah, clomid over nolva any day of the week.

I just find running both works very well for me.


----------



## SD (Sep 3, 2004)

hackskii said:


> I guess you could but there is some speculation that clomid actually will make the GnRH receptors* in the pituitary less sensitive, the nolva helps here*, other than that yah, clomid over nolva any day of the week.
> 
> I just find running both works very well for me.


You sure Scott? I can't find anything on Tamoxifen other than its a great anti-e?

SD


----------



## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Big cat had an article on SERMS.

Clip............

So which one should you use? Well personally, I'd have to say Nolvadex. Both as an on-cycle anti-estrogen and a post-cycle therapy. As an anti-estrogen its simply much stronger, demonstrated by the fact that better results are obtained with 20-40 mg than with 100-150 mg of clomid. For post-cycle, this plays a key role as well. It deactivates rebound estrogen much faster and more effective. But most importantly, Nolvadex has a direct influence on bringing back natural testosterone, where as clomid may actually have a slight negative influence. The reason being that Tamoxifen (as in Nolvadex) seems to increase the responsiveness of LH (luteinizing hormone) to GnRH (gonadtropin releasing hormone), whereas clomid seems to decrease the responsiveness a bit1.

*
Hackskii's words here:*

But for the record I feel clomid is far superior, regardless of what others say.

From my experiance clomid is far superior.

I would take clomid over nolva any day of the week for PCT, but nolva over clomid for an anti-E...


----------



## SD (Sep 3, 2004)

hackskii said:


> Big cat had an article on SERMS.
> 
> Clip............
> 
> ...


I feel the same way mate. That article totally contradicts what I have read elsewhere, I mean its the complete opposite in regards to increasing LH.

What I have found, mainly on wikipedia & mesomorph.com, is that Clomid is said to stimulate the pituatory to release FSH & LH, whilst also altering the estrogen receptor so that estrogen cannot bind to it and is ultimately excreted.

Looking at the profile of Nolva, its just an anti-e, would like to find more evidence of its ability to increase responsiveness.

SD


----------



## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

SportDr said:


> I feel the same way mate. That article totally contradicts what I have read elsewhere, I mean its the complete opposite in regards to increasing LH.
> 
> What I have found, mainly on wikipedia & mesomorph.com, is that Clomid is said to stimulate the pituatory to release FSH & LH, whilst also altering the estrogen receptor so that estrogen cannot bind to it and is ultimately excreted.
> 
> ...


Here is a direct quote from a book from :

AMERICAN ASSOCIATION OF CLINICAL ENDOCRINOLOGISTS

MEDICAL GUIDELINES FOR CLINICAL PRACTICE

FOR THE EVALUATION AND TREATMENT OF HYPOGONADISM

IN ADULT MALE PATIENTS-2002 UPDATE

Clomiphene Stimulation Test.-In the clomiphene

stimulation test, 100 mg of clomiphene citrate is given for

5 to 7 days as an evocative test of the hypothalamic-pituitary

axis. Clomiphene acts by interrupting the negative

feedback loop and thereby stimulating release of

gonadotropin from the pituitary. A doubling of LH and a

20 to 50% increase in FSH are normal results indicative of

an intact hypothalamic-pituitary response (13).

*Hackskii's words:*

If nolva was all that, then why do endocrinologists use clomid to determine if one is secondary hypogonadism?

What supporting evedience does anyone have that suggests nolva is superior?

Doubling of LH and up to 50% increase of FSH?.................That is huge.

Certainly I have not found this to be so, the endo docs dont use nolva to stimulate the pituitary, they use clomid.

But, honestly I use both and found this to work the best.

Now would it work best on someone else?

I dont know and by the looks of it maybe not, but I know what works for me, and that is all I have to go off of.


----------



## crazypaver1 (Nov 23, 2008)

hackskii said:


> How much sust and how much promo, and for how long?
> 
> Why sust and primo if I may ask?


250mg sust and 500mg primo per week, i chose sust and primo for less bloat, and it is a 10week course, Any more help?


----------



## taslajrisi (Jan 3, 2009)

Hacks

I usually post on Promuscle board but they sometimes delete threads. the one on hcg is gone.

I take 500iu m/w/f during cycle to keep the boys up. I, like you, get supressed/atrophied easily and i will never take deca, tren, or drol ever again. Expecially deca just kills me and for a LONG time after cycle i can stay surpressed. Anyway, i assume that much hcg will not cause desensitization woud you agree? Clomid is definately supreior to nolva at increasing LH and FSH just based on my experience...you can just "feel" it. Also, what causes HH as we age? Does the HP get burned out or do the testes get worn out or both? I just wonder if i make enough LH/FSH from the HP because HCG just will blow up the boys but when i stop they go down a bit. Doesn't nolva or aromasin prevent or minimize desensetization anyway? Thanks


----------



## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

taslajrisi said:


> Hacks
> 
> I usually post on Promuscle board but they sometimes delete threads. the one on hcg is gone.
> 
> I take 500iu m/w/f during cycle to keep the boys up. I, like you, get supressed/atrophied easily and i will never take deca, tren, or drol ever again. Expecially deca just kills me and for a LONG time after cycle i can stay surpressed. Anyway, i assume that much hcg will not cause desensitization woud you agree? Clomid is definately supreior to nolva at increasing LH and FSH just based on my experience...you can just "feel" it. Also, what causes HH as we age? Does the HP get burned out or do the testes get worn out or both? I just wonder if i make enough LH/FSH from the HP because HCG just will blow up the boys but when i stop they go down a bit. Doesn't nolva or aromasin prevent or minimize desensetization anyway? Thanks


Why do they delete threads?

I tried to go there today and it was gone.

Du you think it is because you linked to this board?

My take on why guys go on TRT is pretty simple.

Besides the hormonal decline with age, andropause will or should happen to just about all men. TRT therapies are not as common with men due to the stigma of steroids attached with the term testosterone injection.

But, as we age, LH actually can increase because the leydig cells tend to become less sensitive when we age. So, in the bodies attempt to elivate testosterone by ramping up LH, it falls short in the nuts. 

Other things are mineral diffencies, low fat low cholesterol diets, sleep apnea, disrupted sleep, stress, diet, insulin resistance, and excess aromitization due to more belly fat.

Now the last one is quite common, and a catch 22 actually.

Did you know that by the age of 55 on avarage the man tends to have higher levels of estrogen than their female counterpart?

Aromataze enzyme primarily resides in bellyfat among other places, as we age, testosterone declines, bodyfat increases, aromatase activity increases.

To counter the excess estrogen, the body produces less testosterone because testosterone gets converted to estrogen via the aromatase enzyme.

So, with less testosterone, you will have potentially more bodyfat, and the more bodyfat the more aromatase activity, hence the more estrogne and the vicious cycle goes round and round.

Another little snip.

Did you know that a man has a 20 year life expectancy if his erectile disfunction is caused from low testosterone levels?

And that the heart has the most androgen receptors?

Anyway, good to see you here.


----------



## mwummwum (Oct 25, 2010)

hi, sorry if this is the wrong place to post, its todo with pct, if there a better place to post could some one possibly link me to it?

would just like to know, is my pct for the cycle i will do ok?

thanks.

Test enanthate @ 250mg per week for 10 weeks (1ml jab twice per week)

30mg Dbol ED for 4 weeks

HCG @ 500iu's once per week until PCT

3 weeks after last jab commence PCT for 4 weeks:

Clomid 100/100/50/50 mg's ED

Nolva 20/20/20/20 mg's ED

again, sorry if in wrong post


----------



## Mars (Aug 25, 2007)

Looks good to me.


----------



## Conscript (Sep 5, 2010)

mwummwum said:


> hi, sorry if this is the wrong place to post, its todo with pct, if there a better place to post could some one possibly link me to it?
> 
> would just like to know, is my pct for the cycle i will do ok?
> 
> ...


Looks spot on mate... :thumbup1: ...however i would double the test dose and keep extra nolva and an AI on standy if you're not planning on running one....just in case


----------



## Mars (Aug 25, 2007)

I'd leave the test as it is, 500mg p/w is fine mate.


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## mwummwum (Oct 25, 2010)

thanks guys

great community here


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## Ahal84 (Jun 2, 2010)

I need some help guys. I will be running my first cycle in October, it will be 12 weeks long of Test E by kick starting with Dbol. Test E 500mg a week divided so it's 250mg, Dbol 30mg for 4 weeks. I have Nolva and Clomid, but I'm slightly confused with HCG. This is what I was thinking: start HCG on the fourth week of the cycle and do 250ui with every shot of Test, until the end of the cycle and then jump on PCT without HCG.

1) Is that too long to run HCG for 8 weeks?

2) Should I start PCT straight away when finish my shot of Test or?

Sorry guys I know it's stupid, but I would rather be prepared. Thank you


----------



## Mac10 (Aug 17, 2011)

Alright Gents,

I know this is an old discussion but was just hoping to get some info as I have just signed up to the site. I have been training hard for 5 years and with various supplements but my curiosity has finally killed me and I am starting a cycle of Dbol. My gains go up and down but am currently about 84kgs, benching about 110kgs, and am dieting well and keeping healthy (currently no alcohol!).

Does the PCT need to be as agressive with Dbol as some of those suggested above for courses of Jabs? My cycle is going to look simple as this:

Wks 1-2 - 20mg Dbol

Wks 3-6 - 30mg Dbol

Can anyone suggest a PCT for a relatively small course such as the above?

Cheers

Mac


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

No it does not need to be that aggressive with that short cycle of dbol.

A simple SERM would probably be ok.


----------



## Nilly (May 18, 2010)

Very informative thread. I think I will give my clomid another bash for my PCT.


----------



## dawun (Jan 19, 2012)

Please review my cycle and pct, it is very important because I'm starting on monday. Sorry if i posted in the wrong section. Thanks in advance

I'll use Liv.52 and all the standard supplements with additional vitamin c,omega3,cla..

1-10 Sust 2x250mg

1-4 Dbol 30/40mg

7-10 Winny tabs 30/40 mg

11-12 Propi 3x100mg

11-12 Winny inj. 3x50mg

13 Just winny 100mg

On the cycle i use Nolva and Proviron from week 3 and later from week 7-8 Letro.

PCT: Clomid and Nolva

Clomid: 1-4 day 1: 300mg, day 2:100..

Nolva : 1-4 20/20/20/10

Thanks again


----------



## Dave21 (Jan 22, 2012)

Hi Hacksii,

Im going on my ever first cycle of DBOL cycle only, 8-10 weeks at 40mg per day so I'm new to steroids etc

My diet is good and I've been training for years now and said id give it a go. This thread has been great, unbelievable knowledge ye have.

What do you recommend for a PCT after this cycle when i finish as it is pretty mild. Will Clomid and Nolvedex suffice? What dosages do you recommend? Many have said deca should have been stacked with this cycle but its a first cycle so just keeping it straight with DBOL. Oh also any websites you have purchased from and recommend would be great to save to a list.

Cheers :thumb:


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

No deca first cycle.

I would get some protection against gyno with that.

40mg can give you gyno pretty quick, and keep tabs on your blood pressure.

Clomid @ 100mg for 21 days would probably be ok, could also toss in some nolva at 20mg for a month.


----------



## frenchy02uk (Feb 6, 2012)

Hello sorry to ask but better safe then not

I am starting my first cycle dianabol only 6 weeks ( i will then do dbol +test on second cycle )

I plan to take 20 mg once a day for 21 day then 30 mg for the next 21 day

I will then start novaldex 20 mg for 30 day

how does that sound anything i should add ?? liv 52 or milk thistle

Thank you for any help


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

frenchy02uk said:


> Hello sorry to ask but better safe then not
> 
> I am starting my first cycle dianabol only 6 weeks ( i will then do dbol +test on second cycle )
> 
> ...


I would run clomid over nolva, or both myself.


----------



## frenchy02uk (Feb 6, 2012)

thank s for that would you run 100 mg clomid for 30 day alongside ?? ( i already got my hand on novaldex )

sorry to be of bother


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## greenmachine (Feb 9, 2012)

Hackski

im currently runnin a 15 week course that consist of

1-10 500mg sus and 300mg deca per week

10-15 prop 300mg and winstrol 50mg per day

Any chance of a bit of advice for pct ive got one planned out bit you seem to be the main man on pct, advice would be much appriceated.


----------



## greenmachine (Feb 9, 2012)

greenmachine said:


> Hackski
> 
> im currently runnin a 15 week course that consist of
> 
> ...


 Sorry ment write prop 300mg per week, and ive just realised after a more thougher read though this thread that im one of about 150 guys askin for advice on a pct so sorry to be a pain in the ass.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

frenchy02uk said:


> thank s for that would you run 100 mg clomid for 30 day alongside ?? ( i already got my hand on novaldex )
> 
> sorry to be of bother


Clomid would make a great addition.



greenmachine said:


> Hackski
> 
> im currently runnin a 15 week course that consist of
> 
> ...


HCG throughout would be the best approach.

You can start your SERMS day after last jab of the prop.

You could run some HCG a week or so into PCT, but will need the SERMS in there for about 3 weeks from last jab of HCG.

You could actually run the clomid first 3 weeks of your cycle, then swap to the HCG and drop the clomid during.

I know it sounds crazy but you would still get some stimulation while the gear is ramping up.


----------



## greenmachine (Feb 9, 2012)

hackskii said:


> Clomid would make a great addition.
> 
> HCG throughout would be the best approach.
> 
> ...


Cheer mate your a ledg


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## Beastography (May 8, 2012)

It's threads like this that made me finally join this great website. Much appreciated. Thanks for your time to type that up bro!


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## BrunoQc (Aug 22, 2013)

Hello hackskii!

I just started this cycle: (pinned 1 time and started Dbol today)

Week 1-10: Sustanon 2 times a week 300mg (for 600mg/week)

Week 1-4: Oral Dianabol 10MG 3x a day (30mg total/day)

I did a TEST and EQ cycle in the past and had a HARD crash. I never took any PCT (was too dumb and not informed) and since then, always had problem with my test (not fully hard when about to do sex, some downs, no energy sometimes, feeling strange...). I decided to do another cycle and try to restart my testosterone for real after this one, hope it will undo my errors and get my nuts to produce normal testosterone again. I'm 25 years old btw.

What I have in hand for PCT: Clomid and a bottle of APL (HCG) of 5000iu. Was wondering if, since my cycle is short, I could use HCG 5 times 1000iu E3D when my PCT starts along with clomid. Will that be enough to avoid crash? And maybe kick my nuts back to normal production? I should buy letrozole for gyno too, but how do you notice the start of the gyno? And if it starts, is it too late? or Letro will make it disapear? I'm really not sure about PCT and if I should take anything during my cycle, opinions varies a lot in all forums and informations on the net. Thanks for your advice


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

BrunoQc said:


> Hello hackskii!
> 
> I just started this cycle: (pinned 1 time and started Dbol today)
> 
> ...


I always advise to use HCG during to keep your nuts alive.

5000iu probably wont be enough to restore you after your cycle.

500iu twice a week.

Yes get an AI just in case, and also take low dose during.


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## BrunoQc (Aug 22, 2013)

hackskii said:


> I always advise to use HCG during to keep your nuts alive.
> 
> 5000iu probably wont be enough to restore you after your cycle.
> 
> ...


So my PCT should be around 5 weeks? With 2 injections of 500iu of HCG a week and clomid ? Since it's a 10 weeks cycle, only clomid and HCG should be enough right?


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

BrunoQc said:


> So my PCT should be around 5 weeks? With 2 injections of 500iu of HCG a week and clomid ? Since it's a 10 weeks cycle, only clomid and HCG should be enough right?


What I am saying is 5000iu wont be enough for you to recover, you will need more HCG.


----------



## BrunoQc (Aug 22, 2013)

hackskii said:


> What I am saying is 5000iu wont be enough for you to recover, you will need more HCG.


Even though I dropped Dbol? I did 2 days and decided to stop. I got same disease as Arnold Schwartz (2 valves instead of 3) and been told that i need to check my bloods and not equipped for that. So i'll go with sust only.


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## sanhotras (Nov 11, 2013)

very informative. i'm 5'4", weighing 165 lbs, exercising for 3 years now. just started 6 weeks dianabol cycle and was searching for pct and stumbled upon ur thread. please suggest me proper pct cycle as i got little confused as to what to add. as i have not taken any gear before. my doses (d-bol) are 10,20,30,30,20,10. just to test myself how my body react to it.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

sanhotras said:


> very informative. i'm 5'4", weighing 165 lbs, exercising for 3 years now. just started 6 weeks dianabol cycle and was searching for pct and stumbled upon ur thread. please suggest me proper pct cycle as i got little confused as to what to add. as i have not taken any gear before. my doses (d-bol) are 10,20,30,30,20,10. just to test myself how my body react to it.


Well, 3 weeks of clomid at 100mg should sort you out just fine.


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## sanhotras (Nov 11, 2013)

Thanks hacskii. Will shire follow or advice. well I'll update when my cycle finishes


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

sanhotras said:


> Thanks hacskii. Will shire follow or advice. well I'll update when my cycle finishes


Sounds good.


----------



## HMan (May 23, 2014)

hey there, hackskii. Great post! i was a little unsure of all the terminology before but i think im coming around haha. I was looking for PCT advise and came scross this. I figure ill ask here since everyone has their own method. I am on a 9 week Tren E cycle right now with Winstrol. 1cc tren/.5cc Winni. i have also been taking Proviron twice a day. Im not running Test this time. I know because of this, the sides can be rough (or so i hear) my question is what should i do for PCT for this? I heard just about everything so i wanted a certain dosage/timing schedule from you. I have HCG on hand but only got 1 vial so i didnt run it with my courses. I may need more.. So how much nd how often do i take the HCG? what else should i plan to take?


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

500iu twice a week will keep testicular function.

That also will give you some testosterone in the mix allowing for probably a better feel.


----------



## HMan (May 23, 2014)

hackskii said:


> 500iu twice a week will keep testicular function.
> 
> That also will give you some testosterone in the mix allowing for probably a better feel.


So 500ius of hcg twice a week for pct or did you mean during? i know there is s difference between tren E and Tren A so im not 100% sure when to start my PCT on Tren E. No nolva or clomid for me?


----------



## thefitnessgrail (May 25, 2014)

Thanks Hanksii for the post. Great Info!! right to the point without all the other bull**** and fillers that tend to confuse many who are inexperienced.

I used your info to set up Nolva for my PCT with Halodrol.

I posted my own thread to hear back from more experienced memebers but didnt get any replies. Im starting my cycle in a week and worried i may have one or two mistakes in the set up. Hope you dont mind me posting it here if you can help out. Or any other member who has experience in prohormones.

Been reading up and researching on starting a Haladrol + HGH cycle (for recovery from a 2 yr shoulder injury). I am looking to get back to my previous weight, size and strength with a little help from muscle memory (I have been out of hard training for 2.5 years due to a nagging injury and being a medical anomaly to over 10 doctors - orthos, physios, chiropractors, osteopaths

Please let me know what you guys think. Im running HGH purely to assist in recovery of my injury and not necessarily for body recomposition. Im looking to gain decent size while (hopefully) leaning out a little.

I have been training for over 6 years, however the past 3 years have been hard due to a shoulder injury, surgery and due to the fact that i havent recovered fully till today.

This will be my first cycle ever - so i put this together based on what i was able to learn from reading.

Week 1 - Eating at maintenance

Week 2 - increase by 250 cals

week 3 - increase by another 250 cals

week 4 - gauge progress and decide to up, continue or reduce cals

CYCLE: H-DROL 25 (anabolic addictions) + HGH

AGE: 28 yrs old

HEIGHT:	177 cm

WEIGHT: 80 KG

BF: 13%

Pre cycle supps

milk-thistle and hawthorn berry

On cycle supps

hdrol / HGH / TUDCA / ERASE / FORMA / Fish Oil / Multi vit / JOINT SUPPORT/ TAURINE

PCT

NOLVA / ERASE / HGH / DAA / FORMA / Fish Oil / Multi vit / joint support / CREATINE / PRE WORKOUT

PLANNED CYCLE + PCT

2 weeks - milk-thistle and hawthorn berry

Week 1 - H-DROL 50mg + HGH 2ui + TUDCA(liver support) + ERASE PRO

Week 2 - H-DROL 75mg + HGH 2ui + TUDCA(liver support) + ERASE PRO

Week 3 - H-DROL 100mg + HGH 2ui + TUDCA(liver support) + ERASE PRO + FORMA (6 pumps) + Taurine

Week 4 - H-DROL 100mg + HGH 2ui + TUDCA(liver support) + ERASE PRO + FORMA (6 pumps) + Taurine

Week 6 - Nolva 20mg + TUDCA(liver support) + HGH 4ui + ERASE PRO + DAA + FORMA (6 pumps) + Taurine

Week 7 - Nolva 20mg + TUDCA(liver support) + HGH 4ui + ERASE PRO + DAA + FORMA (3 pumps) + Taurine

Week 8 - Nolva 10mg + TUDCA(liver support) + HGH 4ui + ERASE PRO + DAA + FORMA (3 pumps) + Taurine

Week 9 - Nolva 10mg + TUDCA(liver support) + HGH 4ui + ERASE PRO + DAA + FORMA (3 pumps) + Taurine

Week 10 - TUDCA(liver support) + HGH 4ui + ERASE PRO + DAA + FORMA (3 pumps) + Taurine

So thats it, let me know what you guys think. Have I missed anything ? I'm not sure on the dosing of ERASE PRO and whether i should take it throughout or is it better to run another product while on or as pct over ERASE pro. The reason i chose it is because it has an active AI (i know hdrol doesn't aromatize but just as a precaution). Ive also heard great things.


----------



## thefitnessgrail (May 25, 2014)

thefitnessgrail said:


> Thanks Hanksii for the post. Great Info!! right to the point without all the other bull**** and fillers that tend to confuse many who are inexperienced.
> 
> I used your info to set up Nolva for my PCT with Halodrol.
> 
> ...


Anyone???


----------



## troponin (Apr 2, 2014)

Is there any difference between taking HCG in 2x 500IU shots every week in a 12 week cycle as opposed to 1x 1000IU shot a week?

I.E. What are the benefits of spreading the dosage?


----------



## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

HMan said:


> So 500ius of hcg twice a week for pct or did you mean during? i know there is s difference between tren E and Tren A so im not 100% sure when to start my PCT on Tren E. No nolva or clomid for me?


Boss, you need to do a bit more reading.

Tren enanthate, compared to tren acetate is probably around 7 days difference, ace being quicker.

HCG should be used during at 500iu twice a week.

Tren E you would start depending on how much you shoot, more longer, less shorter, ace would be days like 2 of them.



thefitnessgrail said:


> Thanks Hanksii for the post. Great Info!! right to the point without all the other bull**** and fillers that tend to confuse many who are inexperienced.
> 
> I used your info to set up Nolva for my PCT with Halodrol.
> 
> ...


Why the erase in this mix?

There wont be any aromitization going on so no need for that one.

Not sure what forma is.

I would add clomid for the PCT, along with the nolva, leave that other garbage alone, probably wont do much of anything anyway.

Sad that many companies pimp their stuff and make outlandish claims, most will do little if anything.

Drop the DAA as well for after, or during for that matter.



troponin said:


> Is there any difference between taking HCG in 2x 500IU shots every week in a 12 week cycle as opposed to 1x 1000IU shot a week?
> 
> I.E. What are the benefits of spreading the dosage?


Yes, less chance of gyno, and will help to keep estrogen down some.

No need for the one shot, I know there is some that suggest the spiking will work each week like that, but that is just one's opinion.

Twice a week is better IMO.


----------



## thefitnessgrail (May 25, 2014)

hackskii said:


> Boss, you need to do a bit more reading.
> 
> Tren enanthate, compared to tren acetate is probably around 7 days difference, ace being quicker.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the reply.

I read that hdrol won't Aromatize but some have had gyno flare up.from it. So I thought erase being favorited by many as a cycle assist, being careful.wouldn't hurt.

U really think I don't need any support supps while.I'm on? Note that this is all new to me but I've come up with those through extensive research.on boards with those who ran them.

I'll take.ur word.for.it..though if u think I should.drop.them.

Forma.is forma stanazol. It's a gel.u apply to.gyno. Just keeping it on hand and will.use at need. Ive always thought to have had high estrogen levels so.thought.I'd try and c by adding these.

How would u suggest I set it up. And do I add clomid on top.of nolva for PCT or drop.the nolva?

Edit: sorry about the periods. Typing through my phone and damn that space key is TINY


----------



## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Clomid with the nolva will be best.

I am not hip on all the OTC stuff guy buy, not even so sure I would buy them myself, not really sure what is in those proprietary blends TBH.

I would be more inclined to believe that the nonaromitizable steroids will be more estrogen rebounding as during test levels drop, estrogen will drop, once that is low receptors then would be sensitive and once you start producing natural testosterone one may get a form of estrogen rebounding gyno.

Tudca is a good product and certainly geared for steroids, but with short cycles no need really.

I doubt formadrol is like stanazol, winstrol is a steroid.


----------



## thefitnessgrail (May 25, 2014)

hackskii said:


> Clomid with the nolva will be best.
> 
> I am not hip on all the OTC stuff guy buy, not even so sure I would buy them myself, not really sure what is in those proprietary blends TBH.
> 
> ...


Heres the info i got on Forma, basically it mimics a SERM. However, i will still be using nolva.

What would you suggest for my cycle to look like? i posted the 6 week cycle instead of 4 as per your recommendation. What would you take out and what would you keep if you don't mind helping me out?

FORMA-STANZOL is a designer supplement that's extremely effective at helping you keep hard-earned muscle gains and avoid disastrous side effects after a steroid cycle. This compound works as a "suicide aromatase inhibitor," natural selective estrogen receptor modulator (SERM), progesterone/prolactin reducer and an SHBG inhibitor - all rolled into one. The end result is that FORMA-STANZOL not only lowers estrogen in your body following a cycle, but also significantly lowers the amount of estrogen that your body makes.

What's more is that this designer product turns into an anabolic agent at higher doses and creates anabolic/androgenic effects that are quite similar to the steroid Primobolan Depot. As if this isn't enough, FORMA increases IGF-1 levels by 26% or more and boosts HPTA and testicular activity, much like the powerful combination of Clomid and HCG.

Contents:

25mgs DIM

7,8 Benzoflavone (99%) 25mg

Chrysin 4mg

Horse Chestnut seed extract 8ml

Potency over clomid / Nolva

As alluded to before, many people use Clomid and Nolvadex because they inhibit estrogen production at the ER. For this reason, few people who already use these SERMs are willing to give them up and try something new.

However, the major problem with Clomid and Nolva is that they stop estrogen that's already in the body, but do nothing to prevent testosterone from converting to estrogen. The reason why is because there's no aromatase inhibition property in these drugs. Due to this, estrogen levels increase (rather than decline) in Clomid/Nolva users and a whole new set of problems such as "rebound gynecomastia" can develop.

FORMA-STANZOL differs greatly from Clomid and Nolva because it features both SERMs and suicide aromatase inhibition properties. So you can not only replace these drugs with FORMA, but also any prescription aromatase inhibitors you may be using during PCT. And this is great because you only need one product for Post Cycle Therapy - instead of 2-4 different drugs.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

thefitnessgrail said:


> Heres the info i got on Forma, basically it mimics a SERM. However, i will still be using nolva.
> 
> What would you suggest for my cycle to look like? i posted the 6 week cycle instead of 4 as per your recommendation. What would you take out and what would you keep if you don't mind helping me out?
> 
> ...


This statement: *However, the major problem with Clomid and Nolva is that they stop estrogen that's already in the body, but do nothing to prevent testosterone from converting to estrogen. *

Technically is not true, they do not stop anything, they occupy the ER with low affinity so estrogenic sides do not manifest.

The reason why clomid, and nolva work so well is because they make GnRH more sensitive at the pituitary.

Forma just sounds like a marketing hype, hell they use clomid for mens fertility, even porn stars use it to increase the load of ejaculation.

I think manipulating estrogen with an AI while androgens are low probably wont do much, only about 1 men in 5 need an AI while on clomid, so this product probably is not the best to use.


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## Joe zee (Jul 1, 2014)

*Hey Scot*

I am about to start a cycle of tren enanthate... pyramid up start 1cc2xweek 1.5cc2xweek peak 2cc2xweek etc and down

test enanthate... same jab with tren start with 1/2cc end with 1.5cc

and dbol [email protected], up to 40mgperday for 4 weeks and then last four weeks

I am looking for a 12 week cycle. This is only my second cycle. Last one was over 13 years ago! I had massive pump and great gains, but like any newbie didn't do research and lost most of my size. I have still without steriods, maintained about 20pds of that gain. However, I did receive a lot of negative side effects. Worst being acne, and gyno. Acne went away after 6 months, but I am still left with slight hard lumps, and a little swelling around my nips. Chest looks normal other than the nips. When it's cold I can't even notice it, they disappear. I noticed a long time ago in your post people were asking you about getting rid of old gyno. Do you think now with the years of experience you have, it is still possible to remove old gyno? Arimidx, and Femara seam to have the stronger effect, would this be better for me to use instead of nova for my new cycle? Try to kill two birds with one stone or is the old gyno not worth trying to get rid of? What would you suggest? With my cycle what can you suggest for Pct? Sorry so long, thanks a million.

Great thread


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## amah1 (Mar 20, 2015)

Hi I have currently been on dianabol for 5 weeks at 20-30mg a day. I am coming to the end of my cycle and will be taking clomid ass a PCT, many people have told me to take 300mg first day then 100 from day 2-11 then 50 onwards. Would 300 for a firt day not be too much?

Thanks


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Way too much, don't go over 100mg per day period.


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## jamzee500 (Mar 27, 2014)

I'm due to start pct from a 6 month cyle of 500mg test e p/w (i know too long, been stupid)

29 years old, ran an AI throughout and 1000iU hcg weekly.

@hackskii just wanted to see if you had seen this protocol before and your opinion of it (sorry long read)

Post Cycle Threapy (PCT) - iSteroids.com

I'm particularly interested in the fact he mentions running Clomid and Nolva together to be pointless and his suggestion of using Aromasin throughout the first 4 weeks of PCT to counter any increase in estrogen from HCG.

Cheers

JM


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

jamzee500 said:


> I'm due to start pct from a 6 month cyle of 500mg test e p/w (i know too long, been stupid)
> 
> 29 years old, ran an AI throughout and 1000iU hcg weekly.
> 
> ...


Anyone that suggests running them together is pointless has little concept on application.

Don't listen to everyone.

They work better together, and nolva, aromasin PCT's in my opinion are junk.

Once the gear has left your system, you start the SERM's, and you can run the hCG till the start of the SERM's.


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## jamzee500 (Mar 27, 2014)

hackskii said:


> Anyone that suggests running them together is pointless has little concept on application.
> 
> Don't listen to everyone.
> 
> ...


ok no worries, so does this look ok considering my cycle lenght?:

1 week after last jab 1000IU hcg EOD 8 jabs

then

nolva 40mg for 3 weeks, 20mg for 3 weeks

clomid 100mg for 3 weeks 50 mg for 3 weeks

Cheers

JM


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

jamzee500 said:


> ok no worries, so does this look ok considering my cycle lenght?:
> 
> 1 week after last jab 1000IU hcg EOD 8 jabs
> 
> ...


hCG should be run during the cycle.

Post cycle if not ran during should be something like 2000iu every 3 days x 10 shots.

Nolva is 20mg per day.

Clomid starts at 100mg per day for a week, or two, then reduced to 50mg for a couple of weeks, then dropped again to 25mg.

5000iu vitamin D throughout.


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