# Why do people train so much?



## Mingster

Why do they?

I see a lot of trainers using 4/5/6 day a week routines and ask myself why? Now there will always be exceptions, but in all the years that I have trained the vast majority of the biggest, most muscular, trainers have followed 3 time a week routines. Pscarb trains this way, and has Milky following a similar routine. All of the biggest guys in the gyms I use do the same. In fact the biggest guys tend to follow a one on/two off protocol.

We all accept that we grow when we rest so why don't people rest more? I sometimes think that it's an addiction to exercise itself that makes people train so often, rather than a genuine attempt to develop bigger muscles. Maybe people equate more work with better results, rather than harder work with better results. I don't know.

There are a lot of 13/14 stone guys who never seem to get any bigger. Are they brainwashed by the magazines? What do you think?


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## Little_Jay

big bear trains alot more frequent than that, and he is one of the biggest men around

different bodys/diets mate


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## eezy1

im not one of the hulks in the gym but i only train 3 times a week. there are kiddys that train 5 or 6 and from what i can gather they just feel like they have to, or they arent doing enough

ive been there and still have the odd thought that i might not be doing enough but otherwise im doing ok


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## Ricky12345

I'm addicted if It wasent bad for ya if go twice a day


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## ParaManiac

Enjoyment,stress relief,obsession,fitness,results?

Exercise is very personal,it provides such an individual outlet,thats the best thing about it - there are no rules! enjoy it and do it for yourself and your own reasons,the problems arise when it becomes a burden.


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## Mingster

Little_Jay said:


> big bear trains alot more frequent than that, and he is one of the biggest men around
> 
> different bodys/diets mate


 :yawn:

I said there were exceptions. Does this approach work for you?


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## Guest

Ive never been a fan of Push Pull Legs, just doesnt suit me. Suppose its a matter of routine, always done 4 days. It is more than enough.

That and obviously having to train as and when I can, not having the luxury of set days is a nightmare.


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## Fatstuff

i train 4 times a week depending on what im working, due to the way my shifts fall some weeks its hard to get in there twice so i kinda feel i have to make up for it during times when im working less.


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## Mingster

Fatstuff said:


> i train 4 times a week depending on what im working, due to the way my shifts fall some weeks its hard to get in there twice so i kinda feel i have to make up for it during times when im working less.


But why? Why do you feel you have to make up for it. I'm sure you put in the required effort when you are there. You can't do more than that.


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## bigtommay

Maybe they read the articles in flex and follow whatthe pros are doing lol.

I only train 3 days, i find the diet side of things takes up enough time as well. I like having a life away from the gym and work.


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## Fatstuff

Mingster said:


> But why? Why do you feel you have to make up for it. I'm sure you put in the required effort when you are there. You can't do more than that.


Dunno lol, its in my head more than likely


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## Sambuca

I just like training!


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## Fatstuff

aus trains 12 times a week when hes dieting lol ask him


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## Ahal84

I always go by what my body is telling me. But my usual routine is 3 times a week.


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## Little_Jay

Little_Jay said:


> big bear trains alot more frequent than that, and he is one of the biggest men around
> 
> different bodys/diets mate


it seems to be so far, only 5 weeks in though


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## Mingster

Fatstuff said:


> Dunno lol, its in my head more than likely





Sambuca said:


> I just like training!


Good reasons but not really logical or based on science tbh. As I said, there are exceptions. Big Bear and Dave are naturally large people who would be massive even if they had never picked up a weight so, with respect, what they do does not apply to us average sized guys. I work with some big lads. 6 feet tall and 18 stone plus and none of them train more than 3 times a week. IMO if you train hard enough more sessions simply aren't possible...


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## Fatstuff

Mingster said:


> Good reasons but not really logical or based on science tbh. As I said, there are exceptions. Big Bear and Dave are naturally large people who would be massive even if they had never picked up a weight so, with respect, what they do does not apply to us average sized guys. I work with some big lads. 6 feet tall and 18 stone plus and none of them train more than 3 times a week. IMO if you train hard enough more sessions simply aren't possible...


LOL bless ya, so humble.... average sized guy my ass u big lump


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## hardgain

I used to feel if I missed a day I felt crap, used to hit everything twice a week. Now I train everything once a week over however many days it takes 3-4 days.. I was always happy with strength gains but I do wish I had more size and think maybe the lack of rest is probably the cause


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## engllishboy

Because I like training. I like the endorphin rush from it. But most importantly, I can't have carbs except post workout. I love carbs.


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## Mingster

Fatstuff said:


> LOL bless ya, so humble.... average sized guy my ass u big lump


HaHa. I'm small compared to most of the guys at work lol. Bodyfat might be a bit lower than most mind...


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## mjeh87

What does your routine look like mingster for your 3 days?


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## retro-mental

I like this thread, Ming has given me this advice before the less is more. I think what matters is doing the less training but putting your all in it . Say leg days , you do squats, leg press, sldl, leg extentions, front squats blah blah and so on. Hit the intended muscle once and hard !

I am reading brawn at the moment and it basically is a whole book on this advice. Why save 50% for leg extentions when you can put in 100% a more superior exercise in everyway.

Majority of people assisted or not will go back in the gym not fully recovered from there last workout. Your body cant grow when its recovering ! it can only recover. Recovery will come first then growth

I am hopefully going back to 3 day split if not less and 3-4 exercises a workout as i am natty and not the best genetics so my body needs recovery more than most

The 1 most important thing i have learnt in the last year is listen to your body !


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## Guest

Mingster said:


> Good reasons but not really logical or based on science tbh. As I said, there are exceptions. *Big Bear and Dave are naturally large people who would be massive even if they had never picked up a weight so*, with respect, what they do does not apply to us average sized guys. I work with some big lads. 6 feet tall and 18 stone plus and none of them train more than 3 times a week. IMO if you train hard enough more sessions simply aren't possible...


If only that were true m8, save me all this hassle haha.

I think people are easily led into the idea more is more with regard to training. More exercise = more gains, which we all know isnt true. Repair time is as important as time training. Which is where diet also falls into it.

If you went into depth with it all and the actual science behind it, it would be mind boggling. No doubt some of the guru's on here know more about the effect on the body and actual mechanics on how the body responds in regard to repair and recuperation time.

Id certainly like to know a bit more on it.


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## Mingster

mjeh87 said:


> What does your routine look like mingster for your 3 days?


I try to follow a one on/one off routine but usually have an extra rest day every couple of sessions.

Chest and Shoulders/Legs/Back.

I'm not saying that my system will work for everyone, just that, from my experience, the guys who have a lesser number of shorter, harder sessions are the biggest and usually the strongest too. People will cite Arnold as an example of the opposite point of view and, as I say, there are always exceptions. I just feel that for the majority of trainers less is more, provided the effort is put in to push beyond the comfort zone training that we all see in our gyms every day.


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## GreedyBen

Just because you train x5 days a week, doesn't mean they

all have to be lifting days. Cv helps too!


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## miguelmolez

I train 4 days. At the moment, chest/bi's, legs, back/tri's, shoulders/traps.

I did however swap to a 3 days all over split for 5 weeks a couple of months back. Found it was good to shock my body.


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## rchippex

I train four days a week but mainly because I dont feel like I can get enough done in the time I am there if I only do 3 days and my body doesnt react as well as it does on 4 days. I usually get an hour or so max as I have to get back to my family or I would hardly see them. I only ever do a maximum of two days on without a rest day though. I have tried doing 3 days and didnt get the same growth or strength gains as I do on four. Couldnt tell you why. Its just what my body responds best to. I have found this out over many years of trying different things.


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## guvnor82

Minster any chance you can post up your weeks workout.

Also have you Always trained 3 days a week? I'm guessing age comes into play with recovery to some extent.


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## Mingster

retro-mental said:


> I like this thread, Ming has given me this advice before the less is more. I think what matters is doing the less training but putting your all in it . Say leg days , you do squats, leg press, sldl, leg extentions, front squats blah blah and so on. Hit the intended muscle once and hard !
> 
> I am reading brawn at the moment and it basically is a whole book on this advice. Why save 50% for leg extentions when you can put in 100% a more superior exercise in everyway.
> 
> Majority of people assisted or not will go back in the gym not fully recovered from there last workout. Your body cant grow when its recovering ! it can only recover. Recovery will come first then growth
> 
> I am hopefully going back to 3 day split if not less and 3-4 exercises a workout as i am natty and not the best genetics so my body needs recovery more than most
> 
> The 1 most important thing i have learnt in the last year is listen to your body !


Retro talks a lot of sense here imo...

Taking things a step further than the initial premise I also am a firm believer in less sets and exercises in each individual workout.

For example my Chest workout consists of 5 sets of weighted dips, 1 set of DB Bench and 1 set of DB Flyes. I strive to up the weight of the Dips every session and do the Presses and Flyes to failure or beyond by utilising partials, negatives and drop set techniques. I feel that if I did 3/4 sets of Presses or Flyes I would be holding back effort wise to complete all the sets, but by doing one set only I can genuinely give them 100%. Less, is again, more...


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## vtec_yo

To stare at dem asses on the cross trainers.

I do 3 at the moment, but will do more soon in an effort to lose fat. I guess it all depends on your goals? Not everyone wants to be enormous.

Also, I assume that a lot of the Hollister wearing lot like the image. And some people would watch videos of Cutler / Coleman on youtube and assume they can do that every day and get that big.


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## musclekick

mingster has got a point, recovery requires plenty of rest, i recently changed from 5 days a week to 3 days and those were my best ever size and strength gains i **** you not!

as for the rest of the days i hit the crosstrainer for a good 45-60 mins a day every day, i just feel like it starts my day of really well gets the blood flowing etc. first thing in the morning i jump straight on it (which is in my room) well worth the money for the benefits

ill be sticking to a 3 day a week routine from now on, somedays if i push myself really hard and i feel it the next day i will take an extra day to ensure as much recovery as possible

maybe this is the hidden secret? who knows


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## Suprakill4

EOD for me which im getting much better gains than 4 - 5 days a week!


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## Mingster

guvnor82 said:


> Minster any chance you can post up your weeks workout.
> 
> Also have you Always trained 3 days a week? I'm guessing age comes into play with recovery to some extent.


Sadly age does play it's part lol. But I've trained P/P/L for the vast majority of my time in the gym. The workouts I've found the most productive are as follows:

Deads x5. Chins x3. Barbell Curls x2 sets.

Bench x5. Dips x3. Skulls x2 sets.

Squats x5. SLDL x3. Calf Raises x3 sets.

Yes, some people train for fitness or whatever but not me unless it assists my lifting. Cardio days are done but not counted as training days. If you counted cardio you could say I train 6/7 days a week but I don't count 20/30 minutes cardio or core work as training tbh...


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## Craig660

Repair and growth will also be influenced by the amount off AAS, Peps, and diet you have.

I would assume some one on the above would be able to train more as their repair and growth time would be quicker than a natty


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## 36-26

I'm as guilty as anyone of falling into the "hit the muscle from every angle" trap. I gained quite well on a 5x5 P/P/L 3 day split but I have since upped it to a 4 day split just to give shoulders their own day, no other reason. I just feel they need their own day as I feel I neglected my side and rear delts on the previous routine.


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## Mez

Does cardio count ? I normally do 3-4 days on weights then cardio on other days. But it all depends on what shifts I'm working and how hard I've worked.

If I'm knackered I'll have a rest day, if I feel ok I'll train.


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## Dirk McQuickly

I was geared up to start wendler's 5/3/1 over 4 days on Monday. Now you've planted the seeds of doubt. Stronglifts 5x5 maybe? Doh!


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## Mingster

Craig660 said:


> Repair and growth will also be influenced by the amount off AAS, Peps, and diet you have.
> 
> I would assume some one on the above would be able to train more as their repair and growth time would be quicker than a natty


May well be the case for most. I've always been the same natty or on aas though. 3 sessions has always been more than enough for me on gear or off.



36-26 said:


> I'm as guilty as anyone of falling into the "hit the muscle from every angle" trap. I gained quite well on a 5x5 P/P/L 3 day split but I have since upped it to a 4 day split just to give shoulders their own day, no other reason. I just feel they need their own day as I feel I neglected my side and rear delts on the previous routine.


I agree totally. What I find is, you only have so much energy/resources call it what you will. When I took the time to bring up my rear delts I made little progress at first as I simply added in extra exercises for that bodypart thus depleting my limited energy source. I eventually realised that to specialise on one particular area I had to reduce work on another. I dropped some chest work and replaced it with rear delt work and I started to grow.

The moral is that you can't add in extra training without reducing it elsewhere in your system...


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## mygym-mytemple

I decided or my body decided i needed a rest. Last trained on Monday and its killing me having a week off!

Trying not to train till Monday but i know my legs are ready, long weekend ahead.

Problem i have is i train at home so its to easy to just nip out there and train!


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## Mingster

Mez said:


> Does cardio count ? I normally do 3-4 days on weights then cardio on other days. But it all depends on what shifts I'm working and how hard I've worked.
> 
> If I'm knackered I'll have a rest day, if I feel ok I'll train.


See 3 posts above...

MyGym... I train at home mostly myself. I feel your pain lol...


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## Guest

You can cover all the body parts in three sessions a week I reckon. So 3 is technically enough, depends how hard you hit those body parts in the time you are in the gym.


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## BigTrev

Its took me into my 40s to see that more rest is the key to looking and feeling better,,,or maybe its just me slowing down in my old age,,,lol


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## Mez

Where does work come into it though ? If I was say it the office all night I'd feel like I have to go gym after work. But if I was in the warehouse I could be doing 2-300 squats a night and feel absolutely shattered and I'd count that as a workout.

I'm off next week for 7 nights so will probably go gym every day.


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## Mingster

Mez said:


> Where does work come into it though ? If I was say it the office all night I'd feel like I have to go gym after work. But if I was in the warehouse I could be doing 2-300 squats a night and feel absolutely shattered and I'd count that as a workout.
> 
> I'm off next week for 7 nights so will probably go gym every day.


You have to adjust your workouts to your circumstances. I work occasional 12 hour night shifts and I find the best solution is to train straight after work in the morning then go home to bed. I will drop the intensity of the workouts when I am on nights. For example I won't try for any pbs and maybe substitute squats with leg press for the duration of the night shifts...


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## eezy1

musclekick said:


> mingster has got a point, recovery requires plenty of rest, i recently changed from 5 days a week to 3 days and those were my best ever size and strength gains i **** you not!
> 
> as for the rest of the days i hit the crosstrainer for a good 45-60 mins a day every day, i just feel like it starts my day of really well gets the blood flowing etc. first thing in the morning i jump straight on it (which is in my room) well worth the money for the benefits
> 
> ill be sticking to a 3 day a week routine from now on, somedays if i push myself really hard and i feel it the next day i will take an extra day to ensure as much recovery as possible
> 
> maybe this is the hidden secret? who knows


this is what im thinking about doing. lifting 3 days a week as per but maybe adding a day or 2 for some cardio


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## Replicator

Mingster said:


> Why do they?
> 
> I see a lot of trainers using 4/5/6 day a week routines and ask myself why? Now there will always be exceptions, but in all the years that I have trained the vast majority of the biggest, most muscular, trainers have followed 3 time a week routines. Pscarb trains this way, and has Milky following a similar routine. All of the biggest guys in the gyms I use do the same. In fact the biggest guys tend to follow a one on/two off protocol.
> 
> We all accept that we grow when we rest so why don't people rest more? I sometimes think that it's an addiction to exercise itself that makes people train so often, rather than a genuine attempt to develop bigger muscles. Maybe people equate more work with better results, rather than harder work with better results. I don't know.
> 
> There are a lot of 13/14 stone guys who never seem to get any bigger. Are they brainwashed by the magazines? What do you think?


ive been saying the same thing for years ........nobody listens or does the proper research , they all think they have to train like the one in a million with the superior genetics that fill the muscle books and stages at Olympia and the like . also trying out the mental routines they see in these very books and the thing is the opposite is truth.for 99% of us. Train less with half the exercises is the way forward.

Some might say oh well i'll give training less a try for a month ...........................A month !!!!!!!!!!!you have to give something a try for at least 6 months in this game.

Too many looking for too much too fast ................DOESNT HAPPEN


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## Replicator

hardgain said:


> I used to feel if I missed a day I felt crap, used to hit everything twice a week. Now I train everything once a week over however many days it takes 3-4 days.. I was always happy with strength gains but I do wish I had more size and think maybe the lack of rest is probably the cause


If your diet is okay it could well be the cause


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## Replicator

retro-mental said:


> I like this thread,Ming has given me this advice before the less is more. I think what matters is doing the less training but putting your all in it . Say leg days , you do squats, leg press, sldl, leg extentions, front squats blah blah and so on. Hit the intended muscle once and hard !
> 
> I am reading brawn at the moment and it basically is a whole book on this advice. Why save 50% for leg extentions when you can put in 100% a more superior exercise in everyway.
> 
> Majority of people assisted or not will go back in the gym not fully recovered from there last workout. Your body cant grow when its recovering ! it can only recover. Recovery will come first then growth
> 
> I am hopefully going back to 3 day split if not less and 3-4 exercises a workout as i am natty and not the best genetics so my body needs recovery more than most
> 
> The 1 most important thing i have learnt in the last year is listen to your body !


Exactly


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## JANIKvonD

3days for me with atleast 1 days rest between each sesh. central nervous system takes a day to recover....then the body can finish recovering/building said muscle groups trained. keep battering the body without rest and your just throwing away potential gains imo (not saying you wont gain...just not optimal).

i think alot of the 4 day splits involves a p00fy arm day anyway....cant say that would have much of an impact on the nervious system?


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## aad123

I have recently changed to a 4 day split. Push/pull/rest/ push/pull/rest/rest. Each session lasts about 45 mins and I do 6 exercises per session. Seems to be working well, but if I feel I need an extra days rest I will take one. Just my view.


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## Mingster

JANIKvonD said:


> 3days for me with atleast 1 days rest between each sesh. central nervous system takes a day to recover....then the body can finish recovering/building said muscle groups trained. keep battering the body without rest and your just throwing away potential gains imo (not saying you wont gain...just not optimal).
> 
> i think alot of the 4 day splits involves a p00fy arm day anyway....cant say that would have much of an impact on the nervious system?


Very true. A lot of peoples routines seem to revolve around fitting in lots and lots of arm training for some reason. 2 sets of skulls or CGBP and 2 sets of heavy barbell curls is more than enough per week for arms when you factor in all the work they get from presses, chins and rows.


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## leeds_01

well i train more than 3 times a week at the moment, but then at certain times of year i train 3 times.

it will depend on you body chemistry/genetic makeup: cutler/kai/ronnie and all the top guys often do a double split and do 2 workouts in any 24 hour period - but then u got levrone who apparently took nearly half a year off regularly and then got back into shape due to his freak genetics

u gota find the sweet spot that you body responds to.

if Pscarb can do it in 3 days great - good for him -

if my body only reponds to a beating 5 times a week then there u go - everybodys diff


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## Papa Lazarou

I find I grow more the more I train... so I do 5-6 days a week. 39lb in 2 years is enough gains for me.. 15-20lb gain aimed for next year. Hopefully.

LOL!


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## achilles88

probably an addiction to the pumped up feel


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## IGotTekkers

I have to train 4x per week as I fatigue pretty quickly. There's no way I could hit shoulders on chest and tricep day.


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## Blinkey

I have done 3 times a for a long time, I have to as I also have a life.


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## essexboy

The first issue is that most dont understand the physiological reasons as to why Muscular growth occurs in the first place.Decades of misinformation, fuelled by commercial interest and Psuedo science, has resulted in frustration, poor results and the abundance of drug use we see today.

Recent research at Glasgow university, has confirmed that the amount of exercise required to see positive benefits in fitness and heath is very little.in fact its ridiculously little.

however, that amount must be at a very high effort.The word we generally use to describe this effort is intensity.This is nothing new. It was first popularised in the late 1960s by Arthur Jones, and fed to the masses by Mike Mentzer.

Mentzer himself, later admitted that his early recommendations were wrong,and that only the genetic elite, and drug users would likely benefit.His Later writings confirmed his results, with 2000 trainees over 10 or so years.Many of these were training once, twice a week, for 2-4 sets in total.

Unfortunately, logical rational thought seems to be a scarce commodity amonst bodybuilders.They would rather adopt a protocol which is based on traditionalism, myth and the psuedo science of the latest stream of genetic elite who occupy the magazines and now the internet.

In most human endevours more usually equates with better.In terms of exercise it doesnt.Quality and high effort are paramount, to trigger the evolutionary response which makes us, bigger, faster and stronger.

I weep at the hours of road work I used to do , in the misbelief that it would increase my endurance for 3/4 rounds of boxing.It toook years to discover, that replicating that effort was the most efficent way to be able to fight at maximum intensity for 3/4 rounds.

If you truly exert, you really cant tolerate much exercise.This is what causes the adaption response.Merely lifting weights is not enough.If you think you need more try this.Load a bar with approx 40% less than you would normally squat with.Shoulder the bar and lower to the count of ten.When you hit bottom begin slowly upward for a count of ten.Do not lock out. or pause at the top.The weight should allow for 15/20 reps.When you fail, it will be at the bottom, due to the biomechanical disadvantages of the movement.Then have a spotter, assist you in 2/3 more reps, barely enough to keep the bar moving, making sure to keep the reps at 10 seconds.This is how quality movements should be performed.When you fail you should be a heaving, quivering mess on the floor.Honestly, how much of this could you tolerate?

To quote Arthur Jones."Train Harder, Slower, Briefer"


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## goonerton

leeds_01 said:


> well i train more than 3 times a week at the moment, but then at certain times of year i train 3 times.
> 
> it will depend on you body chemistry/genetic makeup: cutler/kai/ronnie and all the top guys often do a double split and do 2 workouts in any 24 hour period - but then u got levrone who apparently took nearly half a year off regularly and then got back into shape due to his freak genetics
> 
> u gota find the sweet spot that you body responds to.
> 
> if Pscarb can do it in 3 days great - good for him -
> 
> if my body only responds to a beating 5 times a week then there u go - everybodys diff


^^^^this. i train 3-4 times a week as that all i really find convenient , but if i had nothing to worry about other than gaining muscle i would definitely train more often, and the more you train the less time your body takes to recover, your body adapts. its like when you don't train a body part for a while(for whatever reason) the doms are far far worse than when regularly trained.

and i bet even levrone trained a fair bit more than 3 times a week when he was actually training, and i would guess on ave most of the top pros probably train a bit more than 3 times a week.


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## tiny76

I train DC style it works wonders for me personally but it's not for everyone.I think as I've got older the rest days are more appreciated by my CNS.


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## goonerton

essexboy said:


> The first issue is that most dont understand the physiological reasons as to why Muscular growth occurs in the first place.Decades of misinformation, fuelled by commercial interest and Psuedo science, has resulted in frustration, poor results and the abundance of drug use we see today.
> 
> Recent research at Glasgow university, has confirmed that the amount of exercise required to see positive benefits in fitness and heath is very little.in fact its ridiculously little.
> 
> however, that amount must be at a very high effort.The word we generally use to describe this effort is intensity.This is nothing new. It was first popularised in the late 1960s by Arthur Jones, and fed to the masses by Mike Mentzer.
> 
> Mentzer himself, later admitted that his early recommendations were wrong,and that only the genetic elite, and drug users would likely benefit.His Later writings confirmed his results, with 2000 trainees over 10 or so years.Many of these were training once, twice a week, for 2-4 sets in total.
> 
> Unfortunately, logical rational thought seems to be a scarce commodity amonst bodybuilders.They would rather adopt a protocol which is based on traditionalism, myth and the psuedo science of the latest stream of genetic elite who occupy the magazines and now the internet.
> 
> In most human endevours more usually equates with better.In terms of exercise it doesnt.Quality and high effort are paramount, to trigger the evolutionary response which makes us, bigger, faster and stronger.
> 
> I weep at the hours of road work I used to do , in the misbelief that it would increase my endurance for 3/4 rounds of boxing.It toook years to discover, that replicating that effort was the most efficent way to be able to fight at maximum intensity for 3/4 rounds.
> 
> If you truly exert, you really cant tolerate much exercise.This is what causes the adaption response.Merely lifting weights is not enough.If you think you need more try this.Load a bar with approx 40% less than you would normally squat with.Shoulder the bar and lower to the count of ten.When you hit bottom begin slowly upward for a count of ten.Do not lock out. or pause at the top.The weight should allow for 15/20 reps.When you fail, it will be at the bottom, due to the biomechanical disadvantages of the movement.Then have a spotter, assist you in 2/3 more reps, barely enough to keep the bar moving, making sure to keep the reps at 10 seconds.This is how quality movements should be performed.When you fail you should be a heaving, quivering mess on the floor.Honestly, how much of this could you tolerate?
> 
> To quote Arthur Jones."Train Harder, Slower, Briefer"


lol don't care if mentzer or jesus said it , i do not believe training 1-2 times a week at 2-4 sets total per session will benefit anyone in gaining muscle, there's low volume and then there's just ridiculous! i've never seen anyone with a half decent physique training like that.

i'd like to see or hear of one person who has got huge using that regime...

and most top boxers do still do hrs of of road work and cardio per week when training for a fight...and i think its pretty much accepted in boxing that the more blood and guts put into cardio in the build up to a fight the more the fighter will reap the rewards in terms of endurance come the fight....so unless you an anomaly(or are more knowledgeable than most top boxers/trainers) i would guess your roadwork and cardio did aid your endurance.

and a study from a university may say only this or that amount of exercise is necessary for health and fitness, but we are talking about people wanting to put on inhuman amounts of muscle.


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## Ash1981

I think if your addicted to the gym enviroment/lifting etc then you will sacrifise gains for your addiction/pleasure

If your thinking about it from a logical purpose of being there point of view you should rest and grow

For someone like me who isnt carrying alot of mass, breaking the whold body down seems pointless, something which i have been gulity of


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## retro-mental

at the start of this year i had to drop squats and deads due to back , I focused on bench and ohp and got PB's in both. This is because deads and squats done with 100% effort is taxing on the system. So much so that just doing squats at the start of the week with 100% effort could easily take a week to recover unless you have amazing genetics.

most other sports it becomes planly obvious that more is not better, Football , MMA Boxing etc etc These guys need rest otherwise it hinders there performance but people think more training = more muscle

I am sure if i just squatted once a week and done nothing else my legs would grow and become stronger than ever before !


----------



## 36-26

If you think about it though, is 1-2 extra hours work over the course of a 168 hour week really gonna make or break your gains?? I don't think so, if you are still able to put in the effort on a 4 or 5 day split you will gain no problem assuming you are eating and sleeping enough.


----------



## goonerton

retro-mental said:


> at the start of this year i had to drop squats and deads due to back , I focused on bench and ohp and got PB's in both. This is because deads and squats done with 100% effort is taxing on the system. So much so that just doing squats at the start of the week with 100% effort could easily take a week to recover unless you have amazing genetics.
> 
> most other sports it becomes planly obvious that more is not better, Football , MMA Boxing etc etc These guys need rest otherwise it hinders there performance but people think more training = more muscle
> 
> I am sure if i just squatted once a week and done nothing else my legs would grow and become stronger than ever before !


where are people coming up with these ideas? professional boxers(in training for a fight) and professional footballers , basically train everyday, maybe one day off per week. i've trained in a gym run by a boxing trainer and the training he had the boxers doing was ridiculous, circuits, road running, insane amounts of cardio with weights on top of that. i'm pretty sure most MMA train the same, stamina/endurance is everything in these sports.

I've done pre season training with a professional football club as a junior, and again the amount of training/cardio is ridiculous.

where are people getting this idea that in these sports they don't train very frequently?

as for your squatting, no doubt given time your body would have adapted , i squat every week as do plenty of others and it doesn't affect any other training days...yeh my legs may be sore, but no probs training another body part. maybe you may want to keep back and leg days apart if squatting/deadlifting as these are likely to stress the CNS the most.

but unless you are very unfortunate genetically no reason why you can't squat and deadlift with maximum effort every week IMO.


----------



## MrM

I changed down to a whole body routine three times a week recently. It's killing me but I'm making progress. But on a day when I train squats bench mil press and rows I don't think I'm giving each exercise full effort. Plus my grip starts to fail first.

I'll stick with it a while but most likely will go back to push pull legs. I'll lift three days a week, any other gym visits are just for a swim or to ditch "used razors " in their sharps bin


----------



## WilsonR6

gonna stop giving my opinion till I change my avatar lol


----------



## goonerton

Top 4 in olympia 2012 training splits

Heath's Training Split

Sunday Quads, Hamstrings, and Calves

Monday Chest

Tuesday Back

Wednesday Quads (AM), Hamstrings, and Calves (PM)

Thursday Shoulders

Friday Back

Saturday Chest and Arms

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/training-with-the-gift.html

GREENE'S TRAINING SPLIT

DAY	BODYPART(S)

Monday	Chest and triceps

Tuesday	Legs

Wednesday Shoulders and back

Thursday	Cardio

Friday	Off

Saturday	Restart the cycle (chest and triceps)

Sunday	Legs

http://www.muscleandperformancemag.com/training/2010/8/it-aint-easy-being-greene

Rhoden apparently trains 2 days on one off, and Jackson trains 5 days a week...

http://fitness.vpxsports.com/blog/athletes/shawn-rhoden/?__hstc=43953530.2e6f6a9e38bf41b909676ae7397da8e0.1349529453025.1349529453025.1349529453025.1&__hssc=43953530.1.1349529453026

http://www.musclelegion.com/bodybuilding/bodybuilders-bodybuilding/dexter-jackson-bodybuilder-profile-and-workout-routine/

OK these are the elite and no matter how any of us train we are never going to like anything like them, but is food for thought when people talk about overtraining and less frequency is better...


----------



## Replicator

goonerton said:


> Top 4 in olympia 2012 training splits
> 
> Heath's Training Split
> 
> Sunday Quads, Hamstrings, and Calves
> 
> Monday Chest
> 
> Tuesday Back
> 
> Wednesday Quads (AM), Hamstrings, and Calves (PM)
> 
> Thursday Shoulders
> 
> Friday Back
> 
> Saturday Chest and Arms
> 
> http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/training-with-the-gift.html
> 
> GREENE'S TRAINING SPLIT
> 
> DAY	BODYPART(S)
> 
> Monday	Chest and triceps
> 
> Tuesday	Legs
> 
> Wednesday Shoulders and back
> 
> Thursday	Cardio
> 
> Friday	Off
> 
> Saturday	Restart the cycle (chest and triceps)
> 
> Sunday	Legs
> 
> http://www.muscleandperformancemag.com/training/2010/8/it-aint-easy-being-greene
> 
> Rhoden apparently trains 2 days on one off, and Jackson trains 5 days a week...
> 
> http://fitness.vpxsports.com/blog/athletes/shawn-rhoden/?__hstc=43953530.2e6f6a9e38bf41b909676ae7397da8e0.1349529453025.1349529453025.1349529453025.1&__hssc=43953530.1.1349529453026
> 
> http://www.musclelegion.com/bodybuilding/bodybuilders-bodybuilding/dexter-jackson-bodybuilder-profile-and-workout-routine/
> 
> OK these are the elite and no matter how any of us train we are never going to like anything like them, but is food for thought when people talk about overtraining and less frequency is better...


above is exactly why most fail , they try to do what these genetic freaks can do.

You are stating the workouts of the genetically gifted ...........they are 1 in a million .....

thats why less is better for 99% of us ungifted ......we cant gain or recover like these guys. Period.


----------



## goonerton

Replicator said:


> above is exactly why most fail , they try to do what these genetic freaks can do.
> 
> You are stating the workouts of the genetically gifted ...........they are 1 in a million .....
> 
> thats why less is better for 99% of us ungifted ......we cant gain or recover like these guys. Period.


lo so what are you saying? we need to do the exact opposite of what the very best and thats how to succeed?

they are all human like us , as i said none of us are going to look like them no matter what frequency we train at, but i don't think there is any evidence for us to think that for most a similar frequency wouldn't work ? i am really talking for assisted trainers here, as obviously PEDs aid massively in recovery times.

where is the evidence that less is more for 99% of less gifted?


----------



## Raptor

WilsonR6 said:


> gonna stop giving my opinion till I change my avatar lol


Are you Rick Fleming by any chance?


----------



## 36-26

Replicator said:


> above is exactly why most fail , they try to do what these genetic freaks can do.
> 
> You are stating the workouts of the genetically gifted ...........they are 1 in a million .....
> 
> thats why less is better for 99% of us ungifted ......we cant gain or recover like these guys. Period.


IMO most fail because of nutrition and effort reasons and not because they follow a certain pro's program. They are the types of programs that I see most people on the forums who compete following, they are not all genetically gifted and yet they grow and recover so how do you explain that??


----------



## 36-26

goonerton said:


> lo so what are you saying? we need to do the exact opposite of what the very best and thats how to succeed?
> 
> they are all human like us , as i said none of us are going to look like them no matter what frequency we train at, but i don't think there is any evidence for us to think that for most a similar frequency wouldn't work ? i am really talking for assisted trainers here, as obviously PEDs aid massively in recovery times.
> 
> where is the evidence that less is more for 99% of less gifted?


Look up any natty pro's routine and they are very similar mate so its not just assisted trainers either.


----------



## NovemberDelta

goonerton said:


> lo so what are you saying? we need to do the exact opposite of what the very best and thats how to succeed?
> 
> they are all human like us , as i said none of us are going to look like them no matter what frequency we train at, but i don't think there is any evidence for us to think that for most a similar frequency wouldn't work ? i am really talking for assisted trainers here, as obviously PEDs aid massively in recovery times.
> 
> where is the evidence that less is more for 99% of less gifted?


No not exactly the opposite, but it is worth pausing and considering that pro BBers are training to the exclusion of everything else. it is alot easier to recover from a high volume protocol if the rest of the time you are resting and eating. If you are doing it along with a full time job it is alot more difficult to get the requisite rest in.

You are absolutely right in saying that PEDs play a major part. In my opinion these pro programmes are more or less an irrelevance to a natural trainer.

@36-26. Yes people do grow with these types of programmes. The point I would make, and I think Mingster is making, is is that the most EFFICIENT way to do it? But in general I think you are right about why people fail.


----------



## goonerton

36-26 said:


> Look up any natty pro's routine and they are very similar mate so its not just assisted trainers either.


yeh i bet you're probably right mate.

i think some people try to convince themselves that what they do is best, for instance if they only have time or can only be bothered to train a few times a week, they tell themselves this is the best way...

i only train a few times a week as all i can/am prepared to do, but i am pretty confident if i upped training to 5 times per week consistently for 6 months i could make faster progress, unfortunately other more trivia things(lol) get in the way of trying to build muscle.


----------



## NovemberDelta

36-26 said:


> Look up any natty pro's routine and they are very similar mate so its not just assisted trainers either.


Do you draw any distintion between pros and the man in the street?

You seem to be implying here that recovery in natural trainers and assisted trainers is equal?


----------



## NovemberDelta

goonerton said:


> yeh i bet you're probably right mate.
> 
> *i think some people try to convince themselves that what they is best,* for instance if they only have time or can only be bothered to train a few times a week, they tell themselves this is the best way...
> 
> i only train a few times a week as all i can/am prepared to do, but i am pretty confident if i upped training to 5 times per week consistently for 6 months i could make faster progress, unfortunately other more trivia things(lol) get in the way of trying to build muscle.


That may be true mate, but there are plently examples of really big people who train 3 times a week, do full bodys etc.


----------



## Raptor

I trained once this week, does that mean i'm on the right track? :lol:


----------



## goonerton

NovemberDelta said:


> No not exactly the opposite, but it is worth pausing and considering that pro BBers are training to the exclusion of everything else. it is alot easier to recover from a high volume protocol if the rest of the time you are resting and eating. If you are doing it along with a full time job it is alot more difficult to get the requisite rest in.
> 
> You are absolutely right in saying that PEDs play a major part. In my opinion these pro programmes are more or less an irrelevance to a natural trainer.
> 
> @36-26. Yes people do grow with these types of programmes. The point I would make, and I think Mingster is making, is is that the most EFFICIENT way to do it? But in general I think you are right about why people fail.


but where is the evidence that only training a few times a week for US is most EFFICIENT? because one person who is a decent size does this does not make it generally the best...would be interesting to see the training frequency of perhaps the biggest 10-15 on here ....that would perhaps provide a bit more insight


----------



## huge monguss

For me its some peace away from the missus :rolleye: but i do enjoy training 5 days a week seems to do the job


----------



## goonerton

Raptor said:


> I trained once this week, does that mean i'm on the right track? :lol:


lol yes! so long as you never did more than 2-4 sets!! you'll be pro standard in no time! :lol:


----------



## big steve

Raptor said:


> I trained once this week, does that mean i'm on the right track? :lol:


no that makes you a lazy fcuker:lol:


----------



## goonerton

NovemberDelta said:


> That may be true mate, but there are plently examples of really big people who train 3 times a week, do full bodys etc.


i'm not saying you can't get big only training 3 times week , but would they be bigger if they trained more? obviously we are all individuals , no doubt for some people 3 days per week will be optimal. but IMO from what i've seen the biggest in general train more frequently...


----------



## The Cheese

Tried working a 3 day week and got big.

Tried working a 5 day week and got bigger.

I do a 5 day split.

Probably sometime in the next few months, I will go back to a 3 day (or maybe even a 4 day) but I do what works for me. And if that means working out 5 days a week, then so be it. Anyone telling me that I'm better off working 3 right now doesn't have a clue what they're talking about.


----------



## NovemberDelta

goonerton said:


> i'm not saying you can't get big only training 3 times week , but would they be bigger if they trained more? obviously we are all individuals , no doubt for some people 3 days per week will be optimal. but IMO from what i've seen the biggest in general train more frequently...


You are right, maybe they would be (or maybe the wouldn't!). At the end of the day it just comes down to what suits and what works for the individual (as always!)


----------



## a.notherguy

because its difficult to beat the feeling that a good workout gives.


----------



## Mingster

It's no good comparing any of us with the top 4 in the Olympia or any other professional athlete. Why not? Because we are a million miles from ever becoming like them regardless of whatever routine we follow.

Yes, if we had nothing else to do - no job, no friends, no life - we could train more. But I doubt many of us fall into this category either.

My initial post stated that the biggest, most muscular guys that I know and have known over 30 years of training follow a 3 times a week training schedule. From the responses to this thread, with the exception of Papa Lazarou, I see little to change my opinion tbh...


----------



## barsnack

i train 5 times when i can, so i end up hitting everything twice except back, which funnily is doing fine. For me its an OCD thing, 5 is the magic number, but starting mma so will be doing 3 days and changing my routine around


----------



## retro-mental

goonerton said:


> where are people coming up with these ideas? professional boxers(in training for a fight) and professional footballers , basically train everyday, maybe one day off per week. i've trained in a gym run by a boxing trainer and the training he had the boxers doing was ridiculous, circuits, road running, insane amounts of cardio with weights on top of that. i'm pretty sure most MMA train the same, stamina/endurance is everything in these sports.
> 
> I've done pre season training with a professional football club as a junior, and again the amount of training/cardio is ridiculous.
> 
> where are people getting this idea that in these sports they don't train very frequently?
> 
> as for your squatting, no doubt given time your body would have adapted , i squat every week as do plenty of others and it doesn't affect any other training days...yeh my legs may be sore, but no probs training another body part. maybe you may want to keep back and leg days apart if squatting/deadlifting as these are likely to stress the CNS the most.
> 
> but unless you are very unfortunate genetically no reason why you can't squat and deadlift with maximum effort every week IMO.


I meant there Fight, Match etc etc thats the big draining event that they do, Cardio is differnt to the draining on the body a fight or building muscle etc etc



goonerton said:


> Top 4 in olympia 2012 training splits
> 
> Heath's Training Split
> 
> Sunday Quads, Hamstrings, and Calves
> 
> Monday Chest
> 
> Tuesday Back
> 
> Wednesday Quads (AM), Hamstrings, and Calves (PM)
> 
> Thursday Shoulders
> 
> Friday Back
> 
> Saturday Chest and Arms
> 
> http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/training-with-the-gift.html
> 
> Most people do not have time, genetics, money , gyms, etc etc etc the list goes on that these guys have so why would you copy them enless you can copy everything else
> 
> What might work for you probably dont work for the general masses. Its a listen to your body situation !
> 
> GREENE'S TRAINING SPLIT
> 
> DAY	BODYPART(S)
> 
> Monday	Chest and triceps
> 
> Tuesday	Legs
> 
> Wednesday Shoulders and back
> 
> Thursday	Cardio
> 
> Friday	Off
> 
> Saturday	Restart the cycle (chest and triceps)
> 
> Sunday	Legs
> 
> http://www.muscleandperformancemag.com/training/2010/8/it-aint-easy-being-greene
> 
> Rhoden apparently trains 2 days on one off, and Jackson trains 5 days a week...
> 
> http://fitness.vpxsports.com/blog/athletes/shawn-rhoden/?__hstc=43953530.2e6f6a9e38bf41b909676ae7397da8e0.1349529453025.1349529453025.1349529453025.1&__hssc=43953530.1.1349529453026
> 
> http://www.musclelegion.com/bodybuilding/bodybuilders-bodybuilding/dexter-jackson-bodybuilder-profile-and-workout-routine/
> 
> OK these are the elite and no matter how any of us train we are never going to like anything like them, but is food for thought when people talk about overtraining and less frequency is better...


----------



## 36-26

NovemberDelta said:


> Do you draw any distintion between pros and the man in the street?
> 
> You seem to be implying here that recovery in natural trainers and assisted trainers is equal?


I am certainly not implying that, I know as assisted trainer obviously will have better recovery. All I said was that any natty pro I've seen has followed similar routines to the ones posted. 4 and 5 day splits, but I am also well aware and agree with you that because they mostly do this for a living that maybe it is too much for a regular guy. But its like I said, do you really think 1 or 2 more hours in the gym in a 168 hour week is really gonna hinder you?? Eat and sleep enough and train hard in whatever way you like and you will grow as good as your genetics will allow IMO.

I have grown using both types 3 day PPL and 4 or 5 day splits. The routine that I followed for the first while training was FrankieNY 5x5 which is low volume, heavy weight 3 times a week and I loved it lol.


----------



## Mingster

Oh, and at no point did I claim to be one of the biggest or most muscular... I said the biggest and most muscular trainers I know or have known. At the end of the day I am in my 52nd year and, in many ways, am well beyond my peak. I train for pleasure these days, nothing more


----------



## 36-26

NovemberDelta said:


> No not exactly the opposite, but it is worth pausing and considering that pro BBers are training to the exclusion of everything else. it is alot easier to recover from a high volume protocol if the rest of the time you are resting and eating. If you are doing it along with a full time job it is alot more difficult to get the requisite rest in.
> 
> You are absolutely right in saying that PEDs play a major part. In my opinion these pro programmes are more or less an irrelevance to a natural trainer.
> 
> @36-26. Yes people do grow with these types of programmes. The point I would make, and I think Mingster is making, is is that the most EFFICIENT way to do it? But in general I think you are right about why people fail.


You make a good point about the pro's not having to do much else besides train and eat. At the moment I am doing a 4 day split with a fair bit more volume than I'm used to, I'll see how it goes and if I don't make good gains I'm gonna try the old reliable Frankie 5x5 again and compare. I should gain on either because I'm eating more than I ever have with big emphasis on protein.


----------



## goonerton

retro-mental said:


> I meant there Fight, Match etc etc thats the big draining event that they do, Cardio is differnt to the draining on the body a fight or building muscle etc etc


i have to disagree with you there, the training you do pre season at a decent level in football will be far harder than anything you encounter in a match. same with boxing the idea is that your training will be physically harder(in terms of endurance at least) than the actual event, so you don't come unstuck with whatever work rate is required during a match, obviously boxing is a bit different to football as being hit will affect your endurance on its own.

boxers even go and train at high altitude where there is less air and cardio is far harder than it will be when they come back to normal altitude, they'll box dozens of sparring rounds too.

your claim that in boxing/football they know that less is more in terms of training is completely wrong IMO. both train very hard and very frequently.


----------



## Replicator

the thing is there is no correct answer to this as all train for different reasons, and have thier own beliefs ....but the reason the ungifted should train less is simple ......

We take longer to recover.


----------



## Sharp161

I always thought there was no such thing as over training just under eating? I gym when I feel I can and rest when I feel I need it and don't look at it in terms of x per week


----------



## murphy2010

I only train 4x a week but ive always wondered if people can train more on aas due to recovery?

Ive heard people say that while on cycle they do like a 4 day training split with 1 day rest between.

Im probs talking crap, but i'd be interested to find out about this


----------



## Barbell mafia

How come gymnasts train the same bodyparts nearly everyday and their physiques dont look too shabby ?


----------



## Mingster

Barbell mafia said:


> How come gymnasts train the same bodyparts nearly everyday and their physiques dont look too shabby ?


I haven't seen too many 250lb + gymnasts to be honest. The thread is about size...


----------



## goonerton

Mingster said:


> It's no good comparing any of us with the top 4 in the Olympia or any other professional athlete. Why not? Because we are a million miles from ever becoming like them regardless of whatever routine we follow.
> 
> Yes, if we had nothing else to do - no job, no friends, no life - we could train more. But I doubt many of us fall into this category either.
> 
> My initial post stated that the biggest, most muscular guys that I know and have known over 30 years of training follow a 3 times a week training schedule. From the responses to this thread, with the exception of Papa Lazarou, I see little to change my opinion tbh...


its not comparing ourselves with them its using them as an example of those who have achieved the very best results do, maybe you won't look they do if you use their frequency, but maybe you would look closer to the best you could if you did...

and to be fair with no disrespect to anyone else on this thread papa is probably the only legitimately big dude that posted and he favours higher frequency...

so hardly an exception , just the only one that posted. i never read journals really but would be interesting to see how many times per week, IB , bigjim and others like that train...


----------



## goonerton

Mingster said:


> I haven't seen too many 250lb + gymnasts to be honest. The thread is about size...


i very much doubt you will see anyone at 250lb in the condition of a top gymnast, if you do they will probably be on a pro BB stage sometime soon!

some of those gymnasts have insane muscularity at very low BF.

p.s another thing i think people get confused with is "weight", you can have 2 guys training one a 16 stone perma bulker, the other 14 stone at 10% or less, IMO the 14 stone will look the bigger. and on most occasions be holding more lean mass.

weight means nothing without knowing the condition.


----------



## Barbell mafia

goonerton said:


> i very much doubt you will see anyone at 250lb in the condition of a top gymnast, if you do they will probably be on a pro BB stage sometime soon!
> 
> some of those gymnasts have insane muscularity at very low BF.


Give some of those gymansts some dbol for breakfast and a few jabs of prop I could see a lot of those guys on stage!


----------



## Mingster

goonerton said:


> its not comparing ourselves with them its using them as an example of those who have achieved the very best results do, maybe you won't look they do if you use their frequency, but maybe you would look closer to the best you could if you did...
> 
> and to be fair with no disrespect to anyone else on this thread papa is probably the only legitimately big dude that posted and he favours higher frequency...
> 
> so hardly an exception , just the only one that posted. i never read journals really but would be interesting to see how many times per week, IB , bigjim and others like that train...


Look to the best for inspiration maybe but not to emulate. As I've said before to attain their status you need to spend all your time bodybuilding and no-one on here does that. Even Papa isn't a pro as far as I know...My original question was 'Why are all the biggest, most muscular guys I have known over the years only training 3 times a week.' I said there would be exceptions and so far there has been...er...One.



goonerton said:


> i very much doubt you will see anyone at 250lb in the condition of a top gymnast, if you do they will probably be on a pro BB stage sometime soon!
> 
> some of those gymnasts have insane muscularity at very low BF.


Exactly. You should be addressing this to the person who though it relevant.


----------



## retro-mental

goonerton said:


> where are people coming up with these ideas? professional boxers(in training for a fight) and professional footballers , basically train everyday, maybe one day off per week. i've trained in a gym run by a boxing trainer and the training he had the boxers doing was ridiculous, circuits, road running, insane amounts of cardio with weights on top of that. i'm pretty sure most MMA train the same, stamina/endurance is everything in these sports.
> 
> I've done pre season training with a professional football club as a junior, and again the amount of training/cardio is ridiculous.
> 
> where are people getting this idea that in these sports they don't train very frequently?
> 
> as for your squatting, no doubt given time your body would have adapted , i squat every week as do plenty of others and it doesn't affect any other training days...yeh my legs may be sore, but no probs training another body part. maybe you may want to keep back and leg days apart if squatting/deadlifting as these are likely to stress the CNS the most.
> 
> but unless you are very unfortunate genetically no reason why you can't squat and deadlift with maximum effort every week IMO.





goonerton said:


> i have to disagree with you there, the training you do pre season at a decent level in football will be far harder than anything you encounter in a match. same with boxing the idea is that your training will be physically harder(in terms of endurance at least) than the actual event, so you don't come unstuck with whatever work rate is required during a match, obviously boxing is a bit different to football as being hit will affect your endurance on its own.
> 
> boxers even go and train at high altitude where there is less air and cardio is far harder than it will be when they come back to normal altitude, they'll box dozens of sparring rounds too.
> 
> your claim that in boxing/football they know that less is more in terms of training is completely wrong IMO. both train very hard and very frequently.


Maybe football was not the best example but fighters get drained more from being in a fight than training. The point i was trying to make is that a fighter would not have a fight the same month ( or most dont ) due to the massive stress on there body. It was just a point to put it in other terms . Obviously you strongly beleive that more is more for you where as i dont beleive that is right for me and i think its not right for most people but the whole point ot the thread was to bassically say listen to your body

Most bodys due to work, lifestyle, money , gentics etc etc will need more rest than training. Muscles dont grow in the gym. If for you training more frequently works than great , do that and its good you have found what works but there is alot of people on the site that train loads and never reach there goals and some of these people think they should do more as 5 days isnt making them grow or get stronger

I personally think the biggest mistake people make is looking at the pro's and copy what they do when most of them are in a finishing off area , most people have not got enough mass to think about doing a whole arm day to bring them up to scratch when there legs have never looked like they have been trained

But that is just my opinion !


----------



## goonerton

Mingster said:


> Look to the best for inspiration maybe but not to emulate. As I've said before to attain their status you need to spend all your time bodybuilding and no-one on here does that. Even Papa isn't a pro as far as I know...My original question was 'Why are all the biggest, most muscular guys I have known over the years only training 3 times a week.' I said there would be exceptions and so far there has been...er...One.
> 
> Exactly. You should be addressing this to the person who though it relevant.


thats fair enough mate, but no one here knows or has seen anyone you are talking about, so no one can really answer. as i said it would be more relevant if we could ascertain the average training frequency of the more advanced guys on here, as everyone here would have has what they look like.

and i think the gymnast comment was quite relevant, some of those guys have insane physiques, and look better in terms of muscualrity than a high % on here(me included) .


----------



## goonerton

retro-mental said:


> Maybe football was not the best example but fighters get drained more from being in a fight than training. The point i was trying to make is that a fighter would not have a fight the same month ( or most dont ) due to the massive stress on there body. It was just a point to put it in other terms . Obviously you strongly beleive that more is more for you where as i dont beleive that is right for me and i think its not right for most people but the whole point ot the thread was to bassically say listen to your body
> 
> Most bodys due to work, lifestyle, money , gentics etc etc will need more rest than training. Muscles dont grow in the gym. If for you training more frequently works than great , do that and its good you have found what works but there is alot of people on the site that train loads and never reach there goals and some of these people think they should do more as 5 days isnt making them grow or get stronger
> 
> I personally think the biggest mistake people make is looking at the pro's and copy what they do when most of them are in a finishing off area , most people have not got enough mass to think about doing a whole arm day to bring them up to scratch when there legs have never looked like they have been trained
> 
> But that is just my opinion !


my opinion is based on seeing what type of training boxers and footballers do and i know they train very frequently. and i believe the reason boxers are only sanctioned to fight at certain intervals is to do with allowing recovery from potential damage sustained from being hit on the head, than it has to with any 'draining' on the body.

but everyone's entitled to their opinion and if you believe that boxers and footballers don't train with great frequency , then we just agree to disagree, no probs.

P.S i'm not certain that more would be better for me, but from looking at what more advanced people seem to do(pros and otherwise) i think it probably would, and i know in terms of recovery i could definitely train more frequently.


----------



## essexboy

goonerton said:


> lol don't care if mentzer or jesus said it , i do not believe training 1-2 times a week at 2-4 sets total per session will benefit anyone in gaining muscle, there's low volume and then there's just ridiculous! i've never seen anyone with a half decent physique training like that.
> 
> i'd like to see or hear of one person who has got huge using that regime...
> 
> and most top boxers do still do hrs of of road work and cardio per week when training for a fight...and i think its pretty much accepted in boxing that the more blood and guts put into cardio in the build up to a fight the more the fighter will reap the rewards in terms of endurance come the fight....so unless you an anomaly(or are more knowledgeable than most top boxers/trainers) i would guess your roadwork and cardio did aid your endurance.
> 
> and a study from a university may say only this or that amount of exercise is necessary for health and fitness, but we are talking about people wanting to put on inhuman amounts of muscle.


You have proven my point totally with this predictable response.I present evidence from far greater minds than either of us posess,and you dismiss it because its not congruent with want you "want" to believe.

I even present evidence, that has been gained from my own experience, and it too is dismissed because you choose not to accept it.

Aubrey francis was one of Mentzers most sucessful clients.Your "show me the evidence" argument is not valid, unless you want to consider, the millions who have failed whilst training like "Arnold" does.

There was a time when the world was "accepted" as being flat too.

There was a point in time when it was accepted the world was flat.


----------



## Mingster

goonerton said:


> thats fair enough mate, but no one here knows or has seen anyone you are talking about, so no one can really answer. as i said it would be more relevant if we could ascertain the average training frequency of the more advanced guys on here, as everyone here would have has what they look like.
> 
> and i think the gymnast comment was quite relevant, some of those guys have insane physiques, and look better in terms of muscualrity than a high & here(me included) .


No worries. It was intended as a debate not an argument anyway. Advanced trainers train differently. When I was competing I trained in a completely different manner to that which built my initial base and to that which I use now. I think the average guy in the gym has a much better chance of getting to a muscular 250lbs training less frequently but with greater intensity. When they get there it's a different game entirely. We all know that the majority of gym goers never change their physique from one year to the next and I'm convinced that that is because they train too often, too long, and always within their comfort zone. It's very difficult to escape that comfort zone when training with volume...


----------



## rambofem

I think when you are new to the sport/lifestyle its good to train alot so you can try out and correct your techniques and training styles as well as to build your strength up, so long as your eating regular and have a decent diet, but as you get stronger and your muscles develop you should cut down to 3-5 days to give your body time to repair. Personally i think 3 or 4 days are perfect if you're really pushing yourself, but everyone is different and u have to find what works best for you


----------



## Mingster

stacey23 said:


> I think when you are new to the sport/lifestyle its good to train alot so you can try out and correct your techniques and training styles as well as to build your strength up, so long as your eating regular and have a decent diet, but as you get stronger and your muscles develop you should cut down to 3-5 days to give your body time to repair. Personally i think 3 or 4 days are perfect if you're really pushing yourself, but everyone is different and u have to find what works best for you


This is true. It is common sense that a muscle will take longer to recover from lifting 200kg than it will from lifting 100kg. I've always found that the stronger I've got the more rest I've needed to continue to improve.


----------



## essexboy

Mingster said:


> This is true. It is common sense that a muscle will take longer to recover from lifting 200kg than it will from lifting 100kg. I've always found that the stronger I've got the more rest I've needed to continue to improve.


Thats because as you become bigger/Stronger, you make more demands on your recovery ability.However, its the demands on the system as a whole, that has to recover, not specific muscle groups.


----------



## goonerton

Mingster said:


> No worries. It was intended as a debate not an argument anyway. Advanced trainers train differently. When I was competing I trained in a completely different manner to that which built my initial base and to that which I use now. I think the average guy in the gym has a much better chance of getting to a muscular 250lbs training less frequently but with greater intensity. When they get there it's a different game entirely. We all know that the majority of gym goers never change their physique from one year to the next and I'm convinced that that is because they train too often, too long, and always within their comfort zone. It's very difficult to escape that comfort zone when training with volume...


well a debate is really just orderly argument anyway, i thinks it been that.

another point, i really don't think many average guys in the gym will ever get to 250lb with any sort of conditioning(not at averageish height anyway). i think the majority would do best forgetting about chasing scale weight as what weight they are when in decent condition is what counts IMO.

IMO the main reason those that don't improve year on year is probably because they lack consistency in all areas and don't really give 100% whilst training regardless the frequency.

IMO everyone should improve yearly if the consistency is there whether they train 3 or 6 times a week. i just tend to believe that more frequency if you feel your body can cope is probably optimal.


----------



## rambofem

You GROW when you REST ...2 many people think you grow in the gym...U DON'T!!! ...for 2 years i trained everyday with a lowish calorie diet...yes i gained some muscle but I was new to the sport/lifestyle so you do get gains obviously coz your doing something your body hasn't done before but i was overtraining and undereating so you end up burned out and going weaker eventually

When your in the gym your BREAKING/TEARING down the muscle tissues/fibres... when you rest and eat it REPAIRS and grows back bigger and stronger............so in order to add muscle mass it needs to repair before you work on it again...u wouldnt try 2 walk on 2 legs if 1 was broke.... u can't add massive amounts of muscle in a short period of time you have to work at it over a long period of time and make sure your getting enough protein/carbs/fats n vitamins and rest to repair the damaged tissue


----------



## Mingster

Fair enough, Goonerton.

IMO if a person trains hard enough to stimulate significant muscle mass throughout the year, in most cases, this will preclude training more than 3 times a week.


----------



## goonerton

essexboy said:


> You have proven my point totally with this predictable response.I present evidence from far greater minds than either of us posess,and you dismiss it because its not congruent with want you "want" to believe.
> 
> I even present evidence, that has been gained from my own experience, and it too is dismissed because you choose not to accept it.
> 
> Aubrey francis was one of Mentzers most sucessful clients.Your "show me the evidence" argument is not valid, unless you want to consider, the millions who have failed whilst training like "Arnold" does.
> 
> There was a time when the world was "accepted" as being flat too.
> 
> There was a point in time when it was accepted the world was flat.


what are you wittering on about, show me one example of one BBer at anywhere near a decent level(on here or anywhere that can be verified) that trains once or twice a week no more than 2-4 sets per session?

in fact show me where mentzer even said that? i know he was a bit 'out there' but not buying that he said that without seeing it? and i would bet anything he never built his physique training once or twice a week....

yeh maybe the world's current leading boxing trainers have got it wrong and you are right in thinking all the roadwork and tons of cardio is a complete waste of time....maybe you are just a genius ahead of your time:rolleyes:

p.s not being a dick, but i don't think anyone who has trained half seriously for a year, would believe that you can cover all muscle groups adequately in a a maximum of 8 sets per week.

even when you look at Yates's HIT training where he says he's only doing one working set per exercise , the weights and effort put into his 'warm up' sets really makes them mostly working sets.


----------



## essexboy

goonerton said:


> what are you wittering on about, show me one example of one BBer at anywhere near a decent level(on here or anywhere that can be verified) that trains once or twice a week no more than 2-4 sets per session?
> 
> in fact show me where mentzer even said that? i know he was a bit 'out there' but not buying that he said that without seeing it? and i would bet anything he never built his physique training once or twice a week....
> 
> yeh maybe the world's current leading boxing trainers have got it wrong and you are right in thinking all the roadwork and tons of cardio is a complete waste of time....maybe you are just a genius ahead of your time:rolleyes:
> 
> p.s not being a dick, but i don't think anyone who has trained half seriously for a year, would believe that you can cover all muscle groups adequately in a a maximum of 8 sets per week.
> 
> even when you look at Yates's HIT training where he says he's only doing one working set per exercise , the weights and effort put into his 'warm up' sets really makes them mostly working sets.


There really is not point in discussing this further.Im not prepared to search for a specific quote, to strengthen my argument.As I previously stated I present a statement which has a firm foundation in science and logic, and the only proof youll accept is " a guy with big arms"

Do you consider 2nd place in Mr Olympia a "decent level?" then search The Colorado Experiment.

For the record, Yes I do believe most boxing trainers get it wrong.Ive seen most, and gloved up for nearly 25 years.I do have some experience.It matters not a jot what you or anynone does.However try and remove your engrained bias, and learn to actually accept logic and rational even though you may find it uncomfortable.You might find the experience quiet enlightening.Good luck.


----------



## retro-mental

goonerton said:


> well a debate is really just orderly argument anyway, i thinks it been that.
> 
> another point, i really don't think many average guys in the gym will ever get to 250lb with any sort of conditioning(not at averageish height anyway). i think the majority would do best forgetting about chasing scale weight as what weight they are when in decent condition is what counts IMO.
> 
> *IMO the main reason those that don't improve year on year is probably because they lack consistency in all areas and don't really give 100% whilst training regardless the frequency.*
> 
> IMO everyone should improve yearly if the consistency is there whether they train 3 or 6 times a week. i just tend to believe that more frequency if you feel your body can cope is probably optimal.


That is the best thing you have put because people dont train 100% all the time but then Could the average guy train 5 times a week at 100%, Probably not ! Some can and good luck to them, I am jealous of them ! I cant !

de·bate

? ?[dih-beyt] Show IPA noun, verb, de·bat·ed, de·bat·ing.

noun

1.

a discussion, as of a public question in an assembly, involving opposing viewpoints: a debate in the Senate on farm price supports.

2.

a formal contest in which the affirmative and negative sides of a proposition are advocated by opposing speakers.

3.

deliberation; consideration.

4.

Archaic . strife; contention.

ar·gu·ment

? ?[ahr-gyuh-muhnt] Show IPA

noun

1.

an oral disagreement; verbal opposition; contention; altercation: a violent argument.

2.

a discussion involving differing points of view; debate: They were deeply involved in an argument about inflation.

3.

a process of reasoning; series of reasons: I couldn't follow his argument.

4.

a statement, reason, or fact for or against a point: This is a strong argument in favor of her theory.

5.

an address or composition intended to convince or persuade; persuasive discourse.

Its a shame this thread has gotten into an arguemnet over a debate as it is advice i wish i had a year or 2 back and advice probably alot of new trainers could do with when they plow through the endless routines and opinions on the internet.

"As long as we maintain a mentality of thats how arnold did it or thats not how lee haney does it then we'll get nowhere but into a well of frustration and despair" Stuart MCrobert


----------



## Mingster

This is it in a nutshell Retro.

We are all agreed that you need to train at 100% to grow and progress.

We all know that you can only train at 100% for short periods.

It's not rocket science really


----------



## retro-mental

Mingster said:


> This is it in a nutshell Retro.
> 
> We are all agreed that you need to train at 100% to grow and progress.
> 
> We all know that you can only train at 100% for short periods.
> 
> It's not rocket science really


Thats what i was thinking a few posts back, Its just common sense ! You do something thats very taxing , you need more rest !


----------



## Fatstuff

cant i just get big from attending?


----------



## Mingster

Fatstuff said:


> cant i just get big from attending?


Only if you attend intensley:whistling:


----------



## Ukmeathead

Hey just look at lions! They are lazy fkers but huge none the less.. Look at gorillas they am big but don't move/exercise alot we are all mammals the fact is eat/exercise and rest=big growth.


----------



## DigIt

PPL seems to be working for me naturally, i think i would do each bodypart 2x a week assisted. high rep and low rep days


----------



## goonerton

essexboy said:


> There really is not point in discussing this further.Im not prepared to search for a specific quote, to strengthen my argument.As I previously stated I present a statement which has a firm foundation in science and logic, and the only proof youll accept is " a guy with big arms"
> 
> Do you consider 2nd place in Mr Olympia a "decent level?" then search The Colorado Experiment.
> 
> For the record, Yes I do believe most boxing trainers get it wrong.Ive seen most, and gloved up for nearly 25 years.I do have some experience.It matters not a jot what you or anynone does.However try and remove your engrained bias, and learn to actually accept logic and rational even though you may find it uncomfortable.You might find the experience quiet enlightening.Good luck.


lol because someone has a different viewpoint from you does not mean their argument lacks logic. my logic regards boxing is based on the fact that it is well documented how top boxers train and i have seen some amateur boxers training and it is very gruelling...and having sparred a few rounds and thinking i was generally quite fit and then realising how much my cardio was really not up to it...i tend to believe that all the intense training is required.

as i said maybe you are ahead of your time and are right and all the top guys are wrong, but i don't think it is anyway illogical to disagree with you here...

as for whether training once or twice a week for 2-4 sets max ....this is clearly very unusual , i very much doubt anyone can name a single person they know in person or that you can currently find a single person anywhere across the internet with a decent physique who trains like this.

i have never seen or heard of anyone training with such low frequency and volume that has a decent physique and from my own training i really don't see how its possible to cover all body parts anywhere near adequately with that sort of split, so why would my not agreeing with you here be illogical?

there seems to be a couple of you on here that are struggling as to the meaning of the word "logic" and anyone that doesn't agree with you is automatically being illogical


----------



## Replicator

http://www.trulyhuge.com/bodybuildingmyths.htm

1 -10


----------



## Growin247

I train 5 days.

Monday chest

Tuesday back

Wednesday shoulders

Thursday biceps triceps

Friday legs.

Each day I do 40 mins - 1 hour max I exhaust the positive. Last thing before walking out I exhaust the negative.

I eat a lot and I am growing fast. I feel if I went less I would gain more weight than I could control.

I feel this works for me. I changed to this from day on day off split and have seen massive improvement. You just need to find what works best for you. I think you can get too consumed in what others do and what others gain and try to emulate that routine. But as many people say on here everyone is different. If there was one rule that worked for all there would be no discussion in it.

Just my thoughts anyway.


----------



## goonerton

retro-mental said:


> That is the best thing you have put because people dont train 100% all the time but then Could the average guy train 5 times a week at 100%, Probably not ! Some can and good luck to them, I am jealous of them ! I cant !
> 
> de·bate
> 
> ? ?[dih-beyt] Show IPA noun, verb, de·bat·ed, de·bat·ing.
> 
> noun
> 
> 1.
> 
> a discussion, as of a public question in an assembly, involving opposing viewpoints: a debate in the Senate on farm price supports.
> 
> 2.
> 
> a formal contest in which the affirmative and negative sides of a proposition are advocated by opposing speakers.
> 
> 3.
> 
> deliberation; consideration.
> 
> 4.
> 
> Archaic . strife; contention.
> 
> ar·gu·ment
> 
> ? ?[ahr-gyuh-muhnt] Show IPA
> 
> noun
> 
> 1.
> 
> an oral disagreement; verbal opposition; contention; altercation: a violent argument.
> 
> 2.
> 
> a discussion involving differing points of view; debate: They were deeply involved in an argument about inflation.
> 
> 3.
> 
> a process of reasoning; series of reasons: I couldn't follow his argument.
> 
> 4.
> 
> a statement, reason, or fact for or against a point: This is a strong argument in favor of her theory.
> 
> 5.
> 
> an address or composition intended to convince or persuade; persuasive discourse.
> 
> Its a shame this thread has gotten into an arguemnet over a debate as it is advice i wish i had a year or 2 back and advice probably alot of new trainers could do with when they plow through the endless routines and opinions on the internet.
> 
> "As long as we maintain a mentality of thats how arnold did it or thats not how lee haney does it then we'll get nowhere but into a well of frustration and despair" Stuart MCrobert


i don't see how it turned into an argument? an argument usually involves people being abusive to each other. i haven't seen that on this thread?

just seen people with opposing opinions trying to put across their view. would be pretty boring if we just had thread after thread with everyone simply agreeing with each other , for the fear of causing an argument.


----------



## MF88

I do 4 days a week, but a split. Shoulders, bi/tri, chest/back, legs. Could probably throw my shoulder day in to one of the other days but I feel I need to work on my shoulders a bit so keep them separate.


----------



## Growin247

I don't like to do a push and pull on the same day. Feel I can't work my back effectively if I have exhausted my chest. Hey that's just me.


----------



## Bdub

What's the difference between training 5 times a week with 1 body part each session,

Or 3 times a week with 2 per session.

Each body part is only getting trained once a week and is getting same amount of rest.

I personally do 5x a week as I like to keep each session quick.


----------



## Growin247

I suppose there is no difference. But I personally could not work back and chest effectively in one session. I like to give each my all. And if I gave my all to chest I certainly would not move onto back.

When I did split that way. I did back/biceps. Chest/triceps. Shoulders/legs. As I said each to their own. I now prefere to give each muscle it's own session.

Works for me.


----------



## MRSTRONG

3 times is plenty for optimal growth .

As for big bear there is a science to his method and that's to only train 28% of a muscle group for cns efficiency I would put money on him training that way .

Newbies just do more because they think more is better .

Uneducated .


----------



## essexboy

goonerton said:


> lol because someone has a different viewpoint from you does not mean their argument lacks logic. my logic regards boxing is based on the fact that it is well documented how top boxers train and i have seen some amateur boxers training and it is very gruelling...and having sparred a few rounds and thinking i was generally quite fit and then realising how much my cardio was really not up to it...i tend to believe that all the intense training is required.
> 
> as i said maybe you are ahead of your time and are right and all the top guys are wrong, but i don't think it is anyway illogical to disagree with you here...
> 
> as for whether training once or twice a week for 2-4 sets max ....this is clearly very unusual , i very much doubt anyone can name a single person they know in person or that you can currently find a single person anywhere across the internet with a decent physique who trains like this.
> 
> i have never seen or heard of anyone training with such low frequency and volume that has a decent physique and from my own training i really don't see how its possible to cover all body parts anywhere near adequately with that sort of split, so why would my not agreeing with you here be illogical?
> 
> there seems to be a couple of you on here that are struggling as to the meaning of the word "logic" and anyone that doesn't agree with you is automatically being illogical


You dont read what is presented, you merely contradict.I posted an example of a no 2 Olympia contestant who trained a total of 36 sets a week, yet you ignore it.The evidence you required(which frankly isnt overwhealming proof, as we are in the realms of elite genes, which make most of this stuff irelavent anyway)I give my own personal experience re boxing.YES intense training is required,Intense training is not endurance, by its very nature both are mutually exclusive.

Ive presented rational data,You are just disagreeing without a valid response.Its not a debate, its just disagreement.Anyway, im off to the pub.


----------



## goonerton

essexboy said:


> You dont read what is presented, you merely contradict.I posted an example of a no 2 Olympia contestant who trained a total of 36 sets a week, yet you ignore it.The evidence you required(which frankly isnt overwhealming proof, as we are in the realms of elite genes, which make most of this stuff irelavent anyway)I give my own personal experience re boxing.YES intense training is required,Intense training is not endurance, by its very nature both are mutually exclusive.
> 
> Ive presented rational data,You are just disagreeing without a valid response.Its not a debate, its just disagreement.Anyway, im off to the pub.


well 36 sets is a dam sight different to training once a twice a week 2-4 sets max per session which you were talking about!! lol 36 sets could be 4 days 9 sets per workout ...quite low volume but within the realms of possibility(IMO) that someone could do very well with that)...

you seem to be moving the goalposts somewhat!

OK lets forget elite athletes for the minute, who on here with a half way decent physique only trains 8 sets max per week?

i simply don't agree with you on boxing training, i believe very hard endurance training is very necessary, what other training can you do to give the lung capacity and general level of fitness needed to stop you gassing, if not endurance?

any exercise endurance or otherwise can be intense, generally if it [email protected] hurts(which hard endurance training does) then its intense!

maybe in BBing the meaning of intense has been somewhat adapted, but in general any form of exercise can be intense.

you say some stuff that apparently mentzer said...about trainingg a max of 8 sets per week is optimal, you then back this up with an example of someone doing 36 sets per week!

you ramble on about boxers not needing to do roadwork or too much endurance training...because you have 25yrs experience...although you agree that the top boxers/trainers all advocate roadwork and tons of cardio...

and somehow you come to the conclusion that your responses here are "valid" and mine aren't. lol

yes you have clearly set out the far more logical argument! :confused1:

clearly so much "rational data" to support both of your arguments...i can't believe i even bothered trying to disagree with you in the face of such overwhelming "rational data"!!

edit: apologies kept putting cardio where meant to be endurance...as obviously not all endurance gtraining would strictly be classed as cardio. have amended


----------



## oldskoolcool

Twice is plenty a week for me very hardcore 90 mins a time i'm 6 ft 242 lbs at about 12% to be honest i dont often drop below 10-12% mostly bulk up to 16% and back to about 12% i've of course tried many other ways but find this the best for strength and size.


----------



## biglbs

Imo 3 or 4 times at most,high protien diet,sleep and low stress give the best results,more is less for me.4 days off thrown in when needed.

Train high intensity/heavy then cycle high rep medium weight,for me.


----------



## essexboy

goonerton said:


> well 36 sets is a dam sight different to training once a twice a week 2-4 sets max per session which you were talking about!! lol 36 sets could be 4 days 9 sets per workout ...quite low volume but within the realms of possibility(IMO) that someone could do very well with that)...
> 
> you seem to be moving the goalposts somewhat!
> 
> OK lets forget elite athletes for the minute, who on here with a half way decent physique only trains 8 sets max per week?
> 
> i simply don't agree with you on boxing training, i believe very hard endurance training is very necessary, what other training can you do to give the lung capacity and general level of fitness needed to stop you gassing, if not endurance?
> 
> any exercise endurance or otherwise can be intense, generally if it [email protected] hurts(which hard endurance training does) then its intense!
> 
> maybe in BBing the meaning of intense has been somewhat adapted, but in general any form of exercise can be intense.
> 
> you say some stuff that apparently mentzer said...about trainingg a max of 8 sets per week is optimal, you then back this up with an example of someone doing 36 sets per week!
> 
> you ramble on about boxers not needing to do roadwork or too much endurance training...because you have 25yrs experience...although you agree that the top boxers/trainers all advocate roadwork and tons of cardio...
> 
> and somehow you come to the conclusion that your responses here are "valid" and mine aren't. lol
> 
> yes you have clearly set out the far more logical argument! :confused1:
> 
> clearly so much "rational data" to support both of your arguments...i can't believe i even bothered trying to disagree with you in the face of such overwhelming "rational data"!!
> 
> edit: apologies kept putting cardio where meant to be endurance...as obviously not all endurance gtraining would strictly be classed as cardio. have amended


If you bother to read the Colorado Experiment, you will see what it actually is.You cant comment without actually knowing the parameters of what it was trying to prove (which it sucessfully did) was that intensity was the most important factor.Jones later qualified that this was still too much.Please do not criticise and form an opinion until you have read the facts.How do I know how many sets any individual uses weekly? Furthermore there are likely thousands training 4/5 days a week who are not progressing either.Do we convieniently forget about them? Please adress my responses, not simply cherry picking where you think you can gain leverage.Your responses are not just disagreement.

Re your point on endurance.Its fairly well documented that the human body adapts specifically.Crossover adaption is a falsehood , perpetrated by psuedo science and myth.That is why ill reinterate my original statement.The most efficent way to stimulate the adaption process, to become a better boxer is by boxing.NOT by peforming a task, that may or my not have similar actions.

My own experiences and science have born this out.I do not need validation.I could provide ample evidence to coroborate this,However, Im really not inclined to invest any more time or effort, when the outcome will remain unchanged and predictable.


----------



## TommyFire

For the past 3 months I have trained around 4-5 times a week. 3 of these days i train twice a day.

I work a 4 on 4 off shift but a typical example would be Mon: AM Legs PM Bi's. Tues AM Shoulders PM Tri's. Weds Rest. Thurs AM Back PM Hiit/calves. Fri Rest. Sat AM Chest PM Abs. Sun Rest.

All with a bit of mixed cardio thrown in here and there, somedays i might do a circuit or a turkish get up session.

I am 31 and have trained since i was 16.

In the past 15-16 years i have trained i have had a go at most routines,(strength, BB, conditioning) varied my rest time and days i workout and tried most diets there is. My diet now is a simple carb/kcal cycling diet and with the above routine i am currently in the best shape i have ever been in my life (natty but i have done aas). I really do train hard when i hit the gym but do not feel burnt our or overtrained. I record all my lifts and have been bettering them week upon week.

For me, more is definately more, but as all experienced lifters will know different things work for different people.

My twopence anyway. :thumb:


----------



## Mingster

This thread seems to have gone a little off track tbh.

As stated in the OP there is more than one way to skin a cat, and I'm the first to agree that everyone is different, some more different than others. But the OP stated that ime most big guys - 250lbs plus and not a giant - gain better from 3 times a week weight sessions. A lot of people are saying that 4/5 times a week works for them without stating that they are 250lbs plus. If you're not, then the thread doesn't really apply to you.

Up until now there have been quite a few people around this size agreeing that 3 x works for them - ewen, OldSkool, etc, and Papa Lazarou saying it doesn't, although I'd wager a few bob that if Papa went to training 3 times a week he wouldn't lose any size... :whistling:


----------



## simonthepieman

Mingster said:


> Why do they?
> 
> I see a lot of trainers using 4/5/6 day a week routines and ask myself why? Now there will always be exceptions, but in all the years that I have trained the vast majority of the biggest, most muscular, trainers have followed 3 time a week routines. Pscarb trains this way, and has Milky following a similar routine. All of the biggest guys in the gyms I use do the same. In fact the biggest guys tend to follow a one on/two off protocol.
> 
> We all accept that we grow when we rest so why don't people rest more? I sometimes think that it's an addiction to exercise itself that makes people train so often, rather than a genuine attempt to develop bigger muscles. Maybe people equate more work with better results, rather than harder work with better results. I don't know.
> 
> There are a lot of 13/14 stone guys who never seem to get any bigger. Are they brainwashed by the magazines? What do you think?


Mingster. You are one of my favourite posters.

People tend to tend pick and discard info on what they want to hear, rather than what is actually best for them.

At a guess. A minimum of 70% of people would get better results. By halving their sets cutting their volume and increasing their intensity and frequency (ie full body or U/L) however if they did that, they would have to spend less time in the gym.

So they find a silly rationale to train a pointless 5 day split to failure. Because it makes them feel like a body builder.

Unfortunately, they never end up lookin like one


----------



## Mingster

simonthepieman said:


> Mingster. You are one of my favourite posters.
> 
> People tend to tend pick and discard info on what they want to hear, rather than what is actually best for them.
> 
> At a guess. A minimum of 70% of people would get better results. By halving their sets cutting their volume and increasing their intensity and frequency (ie full body or U/L) however if they did that, they would have to spend less time in the gym.
> 
> So they find a silly rationale to train a pointless 5 day split to failure. Because it makes them feel like a body builder.
> 
> Unfortunately, they never end up lookin like one


Very true mate:thumbup1:

I can't understand it tbh. Who would go to work 5 days a week for 3 days pay:confused1:


----------



## constantbulk

i havnt read every thing in this thread but i train 5 days a week because i love training and it helps with my stress levels as i get pretty angry at times and the gym gets rid of built up aggresion


----------



## zack amin

most of its just media washed hype, because the pros train 6 days a week so should we, im heavy bulking, 3 days a week, you grow when you rest, im only in the gym long enough to stimulate growth then im out the gym eating and sleeping to nurture that growth


----------



## Mingster

constantbulk said:


> i havnt read every thing in this thread but i train 5 days a week because i love training and it helps with my stress levels as i get pretty angry at times and the gym gets rid of built up aggresion


That's spot on mate:thumbup1:

As I questioned in the OP, why do people do this? and you've given a good answer. There are lots of reasons people go to the gym other than to get bigger and stronger, some physical and some psychological, and are no less valid because of this. It's the people who want to get bigger and stronger exclusively and who aren't achieving those goals that need to question what approach will get them results.


----------



## GMAC

I train Mon-Thurs morn before work, take Fri off, train Sat morn and take Sun off BUT i've been cutting for 6 months due to being an almost 19st fatty, now down to 13st 13lb and i'm gonna keep cutting till Xmas which by then, i should hopefully be ripped or there abouts, then start bulking on Jan and maybe drop my schedule to 3 a week so it will be interesting to see peoples opinions on this thread ;-)

Cheers

Mac


----------



## goonerton

essexboy said:


> If you bother to read the Colorado Experiment, you will see what it actually is.You cant comment without actually knowing the parameters of what it was trying to prove (which it sucessfully did) was that intensity was the most important factor.Jones later qualified that this was still too much.Please do not criticise and form an opinion until you have read the facts.How do I know how many sets any individual uses weekly? Furthermore there are likely thousands training 4/5 days a week who are not progressing either.Do we convieniently forget about them? Please adress my responses, not simply cherry picking where you think you can gain leverage.Your responses are not just disagreement.
> 
> Re your point on endurance.Its fairly well documented that the human body adapts specifically.Crossover adaption is a falsehood , perpetrated by psuedo science and myth.That is why ill reinterate my original statement.The most efficent way to stimulate the adaption process, to become a better boxer is by boxing.NOT by peforming a task, that may or my not have similar actions.
> 
> My own experiences and science have born this out.I do not need validation.I could provide ample evidence to coroborate this,However, Im really not inclined to invest any more time or effort, when the outcome will remain unchanged and predictable.


Ok, have read the basic outline of the "colorada experiment"http://www.musclenet.com/coloradoexperiment.htm

tbh it looks like utter tosh, it also apparently 'proves' that steroids do not aid in muscle growth. 

Viator apparently gained 63.21 lb of lean mass in 28 days with no steroids or other form of PEDs!

even if for a minute we assume the results of this 'study' are legitimate, apparently the guy had lost a ton of weight due to a car accident and hadn't trained for some period before this 'experiment'. everybody knows that rebuilding muscle that you already held is far quicker and easier than building new muscle. so with the help of PEDs i believe in a month back with any sort of weight training, the guy he may have been able to gain what would look a remarkable amount of muscle(i still very much doubt 63lbs though).

but any test like this to have any credence at all ,he would have needed to be training in a conventional manner for a set period of time and then switch to this other way for the same period while keeping other variables as similar as possible....and then compare results....

its funny none of the top body builders in the world train anything like this , yet you chose to believe they have all got it wrong and some obscure month long 'study' that claims steroids don't help with building muscle has all the correct answers!

as far as boxing, yes actual boxing training, sparring, bag/pad work etc, is obviously beneficial to improve boxing skill/technique, but no matter how great your boxing skills if you don't have the stamina(gained from intensive endurance training) IMO it is very likely the longer a fight goes the more likely it is you will come unstuck.

to me it seems like you may just be looking for the easier(less time extensive) way to train, so will use any old tosh to convince yourself that only doing a few sets a week is best for weight training and that all the endurance training in boxing it pointless...i may be wrong?

anyways i think we will just have to agree to disagree. if this type of training really does you results, then fair play.


----------



## goonerton

Mingster said:


> This thread seems to have gone a little off track tbh.
> 
> As stated in the OP there is more than one way to skin a cat, and I'm the first to agree that everyone is different, some more different than others. But the OP stated that ime most big guys - 250lbs plus and not a giant - gain better from 3 times a week weight sessions. A lot of people are saying that 4/5 times a week works for them without stating that they are 250lbs plus. If you're not, then the thread doesn't really apply to you.
> 
> Up until now there have been quite a few people around this size agreeing that 3 x works for them - ewen, OldSkool, etc, and Papa Lazarou saying it doesn't, although I'd wager a few bob that if Papa went to training 3 times a week he wouldn't lose any size... :whistling:


weight doen't mean anything without knowing condition, IMO there are very few people around 250lb(at normal height) with any sort of conditioning, and if they are they are very much genetically gifted ....

so why would how they train have any relevance to us more average guys? if you want to dismiss the fact that the top pros seems to train very frequently, surely you would have to dismiss the training methods of 250lb conditioned guys too...as they are obviously also quite a way above the norm...


----------



## Ukmeathead

goonerton said:


> weight doen't mean anything without knowing condition, IMO there are very few people around 250lb(at normal height) with any sort of conditioning, and if they are they are very much genetically gifted ....
> 
> so why would how they train have any relevance to us more average guys? if you want to dismiss the fact that the top pros seems to train very frequently, surely you would have to dismiss the training methods of 250lb conditioned guys too...as they are obviously also quite a way above the norm...


All it's been in this thread/posts from you is the pro's do this the pro's do that! The average person will never be a pro how are you not getting it? :lol:


----------



## Dangerous20

I work in a gym and train on my lunch breaks, purely because I'm there I train 5 times per week. It's become the norm now I wouldn't know what to do with that hour now otherwise!? Lol

My program is basically a 4 day split (which funnily enough I stole the base from off one of mingsters posts) but on the other day which is supposed to be a rest day I always seem to end up just doing lighter squats again lol


----------



## goonerton

Ukmeathead said:


> All it's been in this thread/posts from you is the pro's do this the pro's do that! The average person will never be a pro how are you not getting it? :lol:


stop talking guff, i've mentioned training splits i've some from pros amongst plenty of other things.

its like saying look at david beckham's technique when he strikes the ball...right he's naturally gifted so just do the complete opposite and you'll be the best footballer you can be....

but the point in my last post which you so kindly quoted was, the average person is never going to be a conditioned 250lb (do you not get that?)

if you dismiss pro training splits, as they are genetically gifted, why is the OP bothered about what legit 250lb guys are doing? they are(maybe not to same extent) but still well and above the average trainer...

to put into context a conditioned 250lb, lets say conditioned = no more than a stone above competing weight, then that's someone who could on stage at 235lb , well above the super heavy threshold , this is not anywhere near your average trainer.

there's a big difference between a legit 250lb and the bloated, flabby, 250lb perma bulkers you see in loads of gyms. obviously all of this is based on people of normalish height.


----------



## essexboy

goonerton said:


> Ok, have read the basic outline of the "colorada experiment"http://www.musclenet.com/coloradoexperiment.htm
> 
> tbh it looks like utter tosh, it also apparently 'proves' that steroids do not aid in muscle growth.
> 
> Viator apparently gained 63.21 lb of lean mass in 28 days with no steroids or other form of PEDs!
> 
> even if for a minute we assume the results of this 'study' are legitimate, apparently the guy had lost a ton of weight due to a car accident and hadn't trained for some period before this 'experiment'. everybody knows that rebuilding muscle that you already held is far quicker and easier than building new muscle. so with the help of PEDs i believe in a month back with any sort of weight training, the guy he may have been able to gain what would look a remarkable amount of muscle(i still very much doubt 63lbs though).
> 
> but any test like this to have any credence at all ,he would have needed to be training in a conventional manner for a set period of time and then switch to this other way for the same period while keeping other variables as similar as possible....and then compare results....
> 
> its funny none of the top body builders in the world train anything like this , yet you chose to believe they have all got it wrong and some obscure month long 'study' that claims steroids don't help with building muscle has all the correct answers!
> 
> as far as boxing, yes actual boxing training, sparring, bag/pad work etc, is obviously beneficial to improve boxing skill/technique, but no matter how great your boxing skills if you don't have the stamina(gained from intensive endurance training) IMO it is very likely the longer a fight goes the more likely it is you will come unstuck.
> 
> to me it seems like you may just be looking for the easier(less time extensive) way to train, so will use any old tosh to convince yourself that only doing a few sets a week is best for weight training and that all the endurance training in boxing it pointless...i may be wrong?
> 
> anyways i think we will just have to agree to disagree. if this type of training really does you results, then fair play.


You see its as i predicted totally pointless.You disregard everything you choose to because it doesnt fit, in your perception of how you want to it to be.An experiment confirmed, by a resident scientist, using the latest techniques available at the time.Yet its "tosh" and you again revert to the same tired retort "none of the top guys train this way"

Well Casey did and he was a top guy.So was Mentzer,In fact they were both Olympia no2.How are you going to rationalise that ?

Also Todd Beard trains 5 sets a week.He weighs 245lb without drugs.You can see him on you tube.Eddie Robinson, trained this way, So did Sergio Olivia, when he worked at Nautilus, as Did ray Mentzer and Boyer Coe,and Markus (?) the big german trains this way, as does all his students.Its all tosh though , right?

Yes all that "endurance" training is not as benefical as ACTUALLY boxing.Yes, you are wrong.


----------



## Mingster

goonerton said:


> weight doen't mean anything without knowing condition, IMO there are very few people around 250lb(at normal height) with any sort of conditioning, and if they are they are very much genetically gifted ....
> 
> so why would how they train have any relevance to us more average guys? if you want to dismiss the fact that the top pros seems to train very frequently, surely you would have to dismiss the training methods of 250lb conditioned guys too...as they are obviously also quite a way above the norm...


Come on Gooner. You're just being awkward for the sake of it now. Or, at least, I hope you are.

I said, for the millionth time, in the OP, big and muscular, not big and fat.

I'm 248lbs and 5 foot 11 inches tall. I'm not overly genetically gifted and I'm a million miles from being a Pro. I don't even train to be a bodybuilder ffs, so it's not that unusual. I know a dozen guys bigger than me that don't compete so, yes, I would say pretty average. Pretty average for a big, 3 times a week trainer. I'm sure that a large percentage of the Pro's trained less frequently in developing their mass. Now that they are big they concentrate on sculpting their physiques not attaining more mass. Kai Greene dropped mass to improve his look in this years Olympia.

I've developed big shoulders from heavy powerlifting bench presses over the years. Recently I've dropped all form of presses and my shoulder workout consists of one drop set of side laterals and one drop set of rear laterals. I have lost no shoulder size doing this and have increased shoulder shape significantly. In this case I train like a Pro after a fashion.

The thread was aimed at normal, big guys. Or at people wanting to become big. Not ******* Pros Normal guys like you and me. Guys who want to be 250lbs and are finding it tough to get there. I used to be best part of 270lbs at one time and in good condition. It's perfectly possible if you reduce volume in proportion to increased intensity


----------



## L11

It's a shame I joined this 15 pages in and have no desire to read it all. I'm sure lots of people will have said this before but not all of us want to be bigger. I enjoy exercising. That's why I do it 5 times a week.


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## Mingster

L11 said:


> It's a shame I joined this 15 pages in and have no desire to read it all. I'm sure lots of people will have said this before but not all of us want to be bigger. I enjoy exercising. That's why I do it 5 times a week.


And if you'd read some more you would know that that is a sensible answer. Best of luck to you.


----------



## goonerton

essexboy said:


> You see its as i predicted totally pointless.You disregard everything you choose to because it doesnt fit, in your perception of how you want to it to be.An experiment confirmed, by a resident scientist, using the latest techniques available at the time.Yet its "tosh" and you again revert to the same tired retort "none of the top guys train this way"
> 
> Well Casey did and he was a top guy.So was Mentzer,In fact they were both Olympia no2.How are you going to rationalise that ?
> 
> Also Todd Beard trains 5 sets a week.He weighs 245lb without drugs.You can see him on you tube.Eddie Robinson, trained this way, So did Sergio Olivia, when he worked at Nautilus, as Did ray Mentzer and Boyer Coe,and Markus (?) the big german trains this way, as does all his students.Its all tosh though , right?
> 
> Yes all that "endurance" training is not as benefical as ACTUALLY boxing.Yes, you are wrong.


OK let me think here...so we have an obscure study that says this guy gained 63 lbs(lean mass) in 28 days without any drugs...and also claims that steroids do not aid with muscle growth!! some other mumbo about mentzer said 1 or 2 training sessions per week at 2-4 sets max is optimal, then an example put forward of someone apparently coming 2nd in olympia doing 36 sets per week, while why pretty low volume, is absolutely nothing like what is suggested in the 1st place...

and now you put forward a few more random names of people who apparently use this ultra low volume to great effect...oh well, if Todd Beard trained like that, it must be the best way...but we have to simply dismiss what the current top 4 BBers in the world do? really?

and sergio oliva trained like this? i think this is more tosh ,from an interview with olivia:

olivia talking about when he first came to US:

"I would drink a gallon of milk every day, and I would drink two gallons of water a day. But I'm sweating all day long: ten, 12, 14 hours sometimes. And the thing is, when I was finished working in the foundry *I would go to the Duncan YMCA and do my workout for another brutal three hours.* Then I would go and spend one or two hours in English classes at night"

Interviewer:

"When you began bodybuilding training, did you gradually modify your program as you began to make gains in muscle size or did you stick to the same program over the years"

Oliva

"*No my training never has changed. I still do the same training even today. I go to the gym Monday to Friday, exactly what I did 40 years ago, and the routine is the same. I just don't lift those heavy weights any more. I don't need it*."

hmmm....

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/drobson331.htm

no disrespect but IMO your argument is disjointed, confused,incoherent and in some places fictitious ..but as i said you stick to your way if you think you have seen the science to prove it and it works for you. I will stick to the more conventional methods as they are working well enough for my requirements...

and yes i guess you are right about boxing too, and i am obviously wrong again along with all the leading boxer trainers worldwide that have all their world champions doing loads of pointless endurance work...what are these idiots thinking of?

i think this has run its course as i do not believe either of us are likely to be swayed. So i wish you good luck with whatever training methods you adopt.


----------



## goonerton

Mingster said:


> Come on Gooner. You're just being awkward for the sake of it now. Or, at least, I hope you are.
> 
> I said, for the millionth time, in the OP, big and muscular, not big and fat.
> 
> I'm 248lbs and 5 foot 11 inches tall. I'm not overly genetically gifted and I'm a million miles from being a Pro. I don't even train to be a bodybuilder ffs, so it's not that unusual. I know a dozen guys bigger than me that don't compete so, yes, I would say pretty average. Pretty average for a big, 3 times a week trainer. I'm sure that a large percentage of the Pro's trained less frequently in developing their mass. Now that they are big they concentrate on sculpting their physiques not attaining more mass. Kai Greene dropped mass to improve his look in this years Olympia.
> 
> I've developed big shoulders from heavy powerlifting bench presses over the years. Recently I've dropped all form of presses and my shoulder workout consists of one drop set of side laterals and one drop set of rear laterals. I have lost no shoulder size doing this and have increased shoulder shape significantly. In this case I train like a Pro after a fashion.
> 
> The thread was aimed at normal, big guys. Or at people wanting to become big. Not ******* Pros Normal guys like you and me. Guys who want to be 250lbs and are finding it tough to get there. I used to be best part of 270lbs at one time and in good condition. It's perfectly possible if you reduce volume in proportion to increased intensity


this is my point 250lbs means nothing on its own, what is the BF% of these guys at 250lb? ...everyone keeps saying oh well you can't put froward what pros do as they are genetically gifted etc, but what has been put forward counter it?, some guys you know who are apparently 250lb+ train no more than 3 times a week...

yet we have no idea what they look like, you say you are 248lb and not fat, but your avi is pretty dark and not an easy shot to gauge condition...if you had a pic where its more clear to see what sort of condition you're in at 248lb at least we could see more clearly how its at least working for you...


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## Natty.Solider

If I didnt train 5x a week im not sure what id do. I do go down to PPL routine if I have a very busy week or if im in exam period. The only thing ive noticed is that its easier to shed fat and keep muscle on a 5 day split when your natural, and its easy to put fat on on PPL if you dont cycle your carbs. I do love training and im sure I fit into the catagory youve described ming. Im not quite 18st but 16 1/2.


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## Mingster

I'll tell you what Gooner, I'll do you the courtesy of answering one last post from you, but I tire of a dialogue with someone with such a narrow view of things...

You go on and on about Pro bodybuilders yet no-one really cares. I certainly don't believe them when they tell the magazines how they train. They are pressured by their contracts to the Weider empire to say what they are told to say. They lie about their aas use. Why should we believe anything else they say? Also, vitually every last one of them have come up through the college system training for their chosen sports. Ronnie Coleman in American Football and Powerlifting, Heath in Basketball etc etc etc. They certainly didn't train as bodybuilders for those sports and probably followed 5x5 and other strength programmes. Only later, when their bodybuilding genetics became apparent, did they switch to other training routines.

I have a journal on these boards where anyone can read my every lift, weigh in, routine, thoughts on training and so on. I don't hide anything. The journal isn't full of banter or idle chat, it's pretty much all training. I have pictures in there and videos of lifts and anything else that anyone could really ask for. Now I may not be as flamboyant as Dutch Scott, or as meticulous as Paul Scarborough, but I've helped a lot of people become big and strong over the years. Not skinny and ripped. Big and strong. You are a guy with good knowledge, why don't you use it for the good of the board? Start your own journal. Let people share your ideas and philosophies and let them judge you by your actions. Sniping on other peoples threads, and your inability to give an inch, paints a negative picture of yourself which I am sure is not an accurate reflection of the real you. Go on. Give something back.


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## Hendrix

I agree most people in my opinion overtain, too many w/o days and crazy volume. I see a guy where I train doing lat pulldowns, and he's still doing them after I have finished training 50 mins later. He also looks like sh1t, like he never sleeps.


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## bailey-bose

you cant say that pro bodybuilders only train 3days a week?

pro boxers?

strongmen?

ronnie coleman training 3 times a week for 1hr a time??? very unlikely

but there are loads of articles saying 3times a week 1hr time, but everyone knows that top athletes train for hours 5/6 days a week


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## goonerton

.


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## Mingster

bailey-bose said:


> you cant say that pro bodybuilders only train 3days a week?
> 
> pro boxers?
> 
> strongmen?
> 
> ronnie coleman training 3 times a week for 1hr a time??? very unlikely
> 
> but there are loads of articles saying 3times a week 1hr time, but everyone knows that top athletes train for hours 5/6 days a week


Where do I say pro bodybuilders train 3 times a week:confused1:


----------



## goonerton

Mingster said:


> I'll tell you what Gooner, I'll do you the courtesy of answering one last post from you, but I tire of a dialogue with someone with such a narrow view of things...
> 
> You go on and on about Pro bodybuilders yet no-one really cares. I certainly don't believe them when they tell the magazines how they train. They are pressured by their contracts to the Weider empire to say what they are told to say. They lie about their aas use. Why should we believe anything else they say? Also, vitually every last one of them have come up through the college system training for their chosen sports. Ronnie Coleman in American Football and Powerlifting, Heath in Basketball etc etc etc. They certainly didn't train as bodybuilders for those sports and probably followed 5x5 and other strength programmes. Only later, when their bodybuilding genetics became apparent, did they switch to other training routines.
> 
> I have a journal on these boards where anyone can read my every lift, weigh in, routine, thoughts on training and so on. I don't hide anything. The journal isn't full of banter or idle chat, it's pretty much all training. I have pictures in there and videos of lifts and anything else that anyone could really ask for. Now I may not be as flamboyant as Dutch Scott, or as meticulous as Paul Scarborough, but I've helped a lot of people become big and strong over the years. Not skinny and ripped. Big and strong. You are a guy with good knowledge, why don't you use it for the good of the board? Start your own journal. Let people share your ideas and philosophies and let them judge you by your actions. Sniping on other peoples threads, and your inability to give an inch, paints a negative picture of yourself which I am sure is not an accurate reflection of the real you. Go on. Give something back.


i'm not sniping at you mate, i'm simply questioning your assertion here that training 3 or less times is generally the best way to gain muscle. if i was to start a thread making a similarly bold claim i would fully expect do defend my claim...why are you taking offence?

all i want to see is what you are basing these claims on, yes you say all the guys you know at 250lb+ train like this, but we haven't see what kind of shape any of them are in? the biggest poster on the thread so far has said he trains more frequently...and that has been the closest to someone 250lb in shape we have seen evidence from?

all i am saying is if you are so confident of this, as you definitely seem to be here, if we could see a pic of you at 248lb in good shape...it would go some in way in backing your assertion...

but hey if you would prefer to call foul because someone questions your claims, fair enough.(are there pics of you at 248lb in your journo and i will go take a look)


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## bailey-bose

Mingster said:


> Where do I say pro bodybuilders train 3 times a week:confused1:


you didnt mate

i havent read the whole thread just the 1st post

i was just stating that if you wanted be a pro then the 3times a week aint really goin do anything

i only train 4times a week with the in and out 1hr session


----------



## MRSTRONG

@goonerton you know what mate every thread you go in you try and derail it and turn it into an argumentative aggressive debate its pretty clear your just being a [email protected] so I'm going to start reporting every goading/baiting post you make as your not helping anyone .

Maybe this is your way of cyber masturbation .


----------



## Mingster

goonerton said:


> i'm not sniping at you mate, i'm simply questioning your assertion here that training 3 or less times is generally the best way to gain muscle. if i was to start a thread making a similarly bold claim i would fully expect do defend my claim...why are you taking offence?
> 
> all i want to see is what you are basing these claims on, yes you say all the guys you know at 250lb+ train like this, but we haven't see what kind of shape any of them are in? the biggest poster on the thread so far has said he trains more frequently...and that has been the closest to someone 250lb in shape we have seen evidence from?
> 
> all i am saying is if you are so confident of this, as you definitely seem to be here, if we could see a pic of you at 248lb in good shape...it would go some in way in backing your assertion...
> 
> but hey if you would prefer to call foul because someone questions your claims, fair enough.(are there pics of you at 248lb in your journo and i will go take a look)


I'm not taking offence mate. I've competed in Olympic Lifting, Powerlifting and Strongman and have no real interest in bodybuilding tbh. As I say there are lots and lots of pics of me on here and videos too, but I'll post a pic from a couple of weeks ago for you but I don't see what it will prove tbh.

The only evidence you give in favour of multiple training sessions is to quote the Pros in Flex which is no evidence at all, and to mention Papa Lazarou who is one guy in great bodybuilding shape. So basically no evidence really. I could cite Pscarb as an example of 3 times a week training being successful in that case. I have no problem with you discussing my theories, my problem is that you cherry pick points such as bodyfat% and ignore other points that you can't refute. Why should we believe the Pros? Why should everyone be in bodybuilding show condition to count? Why does more frequent training work? Where do you get the rest from once your lifts reach a certain level?


----------



## goonerton

ewen said:


> @goonerton you know what mate every thread you go in you try and derail it and turn it into an argumentative aggressive debate its pretty clear your just being a [email protected] so I'm going to start reporting every goading/baiting post you make as your not helping anyone .
> 
> Maybe this is your way of cyber masturbation .


save your bs for someone who cares, if i want to question something i will, and i don't give a fig what you think of it.

i am derailing the thread...show me where i have i posted off topic on this thread...?

then tell me what your post here has to with the topic?


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## retro-mental




----------



## retro-mental

The above is a good 2 pages to read,

I too have noticed a few threads where goonerton has consistantly argued his point to the degree where he seems arogant and ignorant. Maybe you dont mean to come across like this but you do and its a shame

if you agree or not you cant change the opinion of people by trying to argue them down. Maybe your approach needs some work as if you have good info a can back it up i would be the first to want to read it as i am not big !

The biggest shame about this thread is it would be one of the more helpful threads to alot ( not all ) of newbies on the site and in training. Ming is a man with years of knowledge and comes across as a clever person with no ego and nothing to prove. As a matter of fact he does not make a great deal of his own threads but drops nuggets of info about the site and judging by this he will probably think "why did i bother" and thats a shame as like i said. In the year back training i have learnt more off him and a few other members on her than i ever did reading through the pages and pages of missinformed information on the net

I am all for a debate but to keep going with no let up and having to have the last say on every post does not make you look good then in the future when you drop a nugget of great info down people will probably not even read your post like i probably will not anymore because they will expect it to be the same old crap !


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## Milky

It genuinely tickles me that people cant agree to disagree and leave it at that.

Seriously are some of you fella's penises that smal you HAVE to win an internet debate ?

Get a grip adnd grow the fu*k up or l close the thread and l win...

Comprende ??


----------



## goonerton

Mingster said:


> I'm not taking offence mate. I've competed in Olympic Lifting, Powerlifting and Strongman and have no real interest in bodybuilding tbh. As I say there are lots and lots of pics of me on here and videos too, but I'll post a pic from a couple of weeks ago for you but I don't see what it will prove tbh.
> 
> The only evidence you give in favour of multiple training sessions is to quote the Pros in Flex which is no evidence at all, and to mention Papa Lazarou who is one guy in great bodybuilding shape. So basically no evidence really. I could cite Pscarb as an example of 3 times a week training being successful in that case. I have no problem with you discussing my theories, my problem is that you cherry pick points such as bodyfat% and ignore other points that you can't refute. Why should we believe the Pros? Why should everyone be in bodybuilding show condition to count? Why does more frequent training work? Where do you get the rest from once your lifts reach a certain level?
> 
> View attachment 96664


well that is one for one really, papa says he trains more frequently and you say pscarb only 3 times a week. well you obviously discount everything the pros do, while i know i will ever get anywhere their level , i do take some of what they do on do board, such as training frequency, i'm certain training 7 days a week as heath does would be too much for me, but i think i definitely have the recovery ability to train to full capacity say 5 times a week.

I'm not claiming for certain this would be better, but i tend to think it would. also another point i'm not sure has been mentioned is age, i would imagine in general the older you are the more recovery time you may need...

and i really don't think wanting to know the % BF when scale figs are being quoted is cherry picking...it really is all important...as 250lb can be a bloated mess or a conditioned monster...as i'm sure aware...

tbh IMO nothing has really been put forward either way that could be said to clearly show that up to 3 times a week or more frequent is the best way to gain muscle. I tend to believe for most, more frequent would be beneficial(recovery ability and time allowing), you obviously think different.

but i don't think there is any need for anyone to get uptight or start taking things personally, just because others may have a different view. There's always going to be more than one way to skin a cat...anyways, hopefully no hard feelings.

p.s tbh you look in reasonable shape in your pic!


----------



## goonerton

retro-mental said:


> The above is a good 2 pages to read,
> 
> I too have noticed a few threads where goonerton has consistantly argued his point to the degree where he seems arogant and ignorant. Maybe you dont mean to come across like this but you do and its a shame
> 
> if you agree or not you cant change the opinion of people by trying to argue them down. Maybe your approach needs some work as if you have good info a can back it up i would be the first to want to read it as i am not big !
> 
> The biggest shame about this thread is it would be one of the more helpful threads to alot ( not all ) of newbies on the site and in training. Ming is a man with years of knowledge and comes across as a clever person with no ego and nothing to prove. As a matter of fact he does not make a great deal of his own threads but drops nuggets of info about the site and judging by this he will probably think "why did i bother" and thats a shame as like i said. In the year back training i have learnt more off him and a few other members on her than i ever did reading through the pages and pages of missinformed information on the net
> 
> I am all for a debate but to keep going with no let up and having to have the last say on every post does not make you look good then in the future when you drop a nugget of great info down people will probably not even read your post like i probably will not anymore because they will expect it to be the same old crap !


just stick me on ignore matey, and keep reading all the threads where everyone sings off the same song sheet, as it obviously upsets you when someone is prepared to go against the majority.

tbh this is actually pretty ridiculous that people are really getting all upset because someone should argue that they believe training more than 3 times a week is probably for the majority optimal...

this is hardly something radical i am suggesting here!! fk me anyone would think i was suggesting that people should do no more than 8 sets a week or something!!

lmao!


----------



## Milky

goonerton said:


> just stick me on ignore matey, and keep reading all the threads where everyone sings off the same song sheet, as it obviously upsets you when someone is prepared to go against the majority.
> 
> tbh this is actually pretty ridiculous that people are really getting all upset because someone should argue that they believe training more than 3 times a week is probably for the majority optimal...
> 
> this is hardly something radical i am suggesting here!! fk me anyone would think i was suggesting that people should do no more than 8 sets a week or something!!
> 
> lmao!


Wonder why people think your arrogant and argumentative eh mate ?

Your really not a people person are you from what l have read of your posts.

Perhaps everyone should put you on ignore.

You may have very valid points but the mindless desire to prove yourself right to the endth degree is quite sad for a man who comes across as quite intelligent.

I dont mind a debate, l do mind when someone cant just let it go..

Hae a good evening all the same.


----------



## goonerton

Milky said:


> Wonder why people think your arrogant and argumentative eh mate ?
> 
> Your really not a people person are you from what l have read of your posts.
> 
> Perhaps everyone should put you on ignore.
> 
> You may have very valid points but the mindless desire to prove yourself right to the endth degree is quite sad for a man who comes across as quite intelligent.
> 
> I dont mind a debate, l do mind when someone cant just let it go..
> 
> Hae a good evening all the same.


not sure why you're getting out of your pram bud, couldn't give a fig what you think either tbh mate or your character appraisals, i come on here to bounce a few ideas around, perhaps have the odd debate or two, and thats it(and you have actually liked a fair few of my posts in the past)...

i try not to be abusive to anyone and try not to make things peraonal, but if anyone(you included) doesn't like what i post or my style of posting, stick me on ignore simples.

or if you would rather i didn't post here just hit the ban button mate, couldn't give a flying fk tbh.

oh have a good evening too!


----------



## Milky

goonerton:3538827 said:


> not sure why you're getting out of your pram bud, couldn't give a fig what you think either tbh mate or your character appraisals, i come on here to bounce a few ideas around, perhaps have the odd debate or two, and thats it(and you have actually liked a fair few of my posts in the past)...
> 
> i try not to be abusive to anyone and try not to make things peraonal, but if anyone(you included) doesn't like what i post or my style of posting, stick me on ignore simples.
> 
> or if you would rather i didn't post here just hit the ban button mate, couldn't give a flying fk tbh.
> 
> oh have a good evening too!


Fair enough then, as requested.


----------



## zack amin

Milky said:


> Fair enough then, as requested.


damn where do i get me on of those them there ban sticks?


----------



## Fit4life

I train 7 days per week , why?

Because I like to be the fittest fastest and sexiest bitch in the gym lmfao

nah rather

I would get bored after doing a days work telling men what to do , and I just happen to love training, it takes me to a different world

kaza


----------



## Mingster

Fit4life said:


> I train 7 days per week , why?
> 
> Because I like to be the fittest fastest and sexiest bitch in the gym lmfao
> 
> nah rather
> 
> I would get bored after doing a days work telling men what to do , and I just happen to love training, it takes me to a different world
> 
> kaza


I actually train 7 days a week too. I just don't count cardio and core work as training...


----------



## Fit4life

Mingster said:


> I actually train 7 days a week too. I just don't count cardio and core work as training...


Well I train all body parts whether in the gym or at my home gym, the banter in the gym keeps me human and i love to wind the guys up when I am in the cardio room, with a treadmill on 12 and me dancing with my ickle ipod hehehhehe

seriously, I really like to keep fit, but it has its downfalls, no man can keep up with me and I am not joking !

Hence I am a single girl

kaza


----------



## NovemberDelta

Mingster said:


> I actually train 7 days a week too. I just don't count cardio and core work as training...


Most people I know who train 3 times a week tend to be more experienced. Do you think that they just know more about all aspects of training and necome more efficient in oppose to purely training less being better? Do you think it is better to start training at 3 times a week from the outset. My mind isn't made up but in general I am more of the train intensely 3 times a week school of thought.

Good thread mate, it's a pity about the tit for tat nonsense.


----------



## Mingster

Fit4life said:


> Well I train all body parts whether in the gym or at my home gym, the banter in the gym keeps me human and i love to wind the guys up when I am in the cardio room, with a treadmill on 12 and me dancing with my ickle ipod hehehhehe
> 
> seriously, I really like to keep fit, but it has its downfalls, no man can keep up with me and I am not joking !
> 
> Hence I am a single girl
> 
> kaza


As long as you're happy That's what's important.

That's what this thread was all about really. Helping people to get to where they want to be...


----------



## Ackee&amp;Saltfish

this thread has just about taken me back to the drawing board..some good points and what not..wont hurt going down to three days thank you peoples :thumb:


----------



## Fit4life

EXACTLY

happiness is what we all want

kaza


----------



## simonthepieman

The worst excuse people use is " that's how the pros train" eurghhhh

These are people who have maxed out their gains, running large drug cycle and top genetics with the aim of of putting on a few pounds of muscle a year. on a beginner or intermediate routine the aim is to gain 10-15lbs natty

The ironic thing is, that most experienced bodybuilders would train like a beginner if they could still get the gains, but they have maxed those gains out.


----------



## Dezw

People can have a very hard physical job and do 12-14 hour shifts 5 or 6 days a week, but when it comes to training then we can only train 3 days a week? Doesn't compute.

I would train 7 days a week if I could because I love it, and also the more frequently I train the better gains I make.

You rest when your sleeping.


----------



## Mingster

NovemberDelta said:


> Most people I know who train 3 times a week tend to be more experienced. Do you think that they just know more about all aspects of training and necome more efficient in oppose to purely training less being better? Do you think it is better to start training at 3 times a week from the outset. My mind isn't made up but in general I am more of the train intensely 3 times a week school of thought.
> 
> Good thread mate, it's a pity about the tit for tat nonsense.


In all the time I've been on UK-M I've probably only started 4 or 5 threads lol. Sometimes I just feel the need to encourage people to think about what they are doing a little bit, and to question the thinking behind what they do.

Everyone is different to an extent. But a lot of us are similar. For every one person who gains muscle on a 5 day split I'd bet there are another 3 who would gain better on 3 times a week training. I've seen it in every gym I've ever trained in over 30 years. It stands to reason the stronger you get the more recovery time you need. Newbies can make gains training more often. And they should do so to learn the exercises and how their bodies react to them.

We all have a limit to our energy reserves. I could train with weights 7 days a week starting next week but I would have to drop the weights lifted and reduce my intensity. As soon as a weight increases it eats into my energy levels and has to be compensated for elsewhere. The easiest way to do this is to reduce volume. Eventually you are left with 3 times a week training. Or even less in some cases. You can get around this by constantly cycling your training but it's very difficult to get this right. This is what strength athletes do throughout the year and it takes experience and careful planning and logging of weights to do it successfully.

It's easier for most people to train hard 3 times a week - or whatever - and have a deload week every so often. Or a week off. This is more for the intermediate or advanced trainer. For someone new to the game, I would advise something like a 4 times a week routine with each session revolving around the major lifts - deads, bench, squat, OHP - with a couple of support exercises each day. Once the weights go up on these major exercises your body will be the one which will tell you things need to be adjusted


----------



## Mingster

Fit4life said:


> EXACTLY
> 
> happiness is what we all want
> 
> kaza


Well, you've cheered me up no end


----------



## Mingster

Dezw said:


> People can have a very hard physical job and do 12-14 hour shifts 5 or 6 days a week, but when it comes to training then we can only train 3 days a week? Doesn't compute.
> 
> I would train 7 days a week if I could because I love it, and also the more frequently I train the better gains I make.
> 
> You rest when your sleeping.


Best of luck to you mate:thumbup1:

You're one of the lucky ones.


----------



## NovemberDelta

Mingster said:


> In all the time I've been on UK-M I've probably only started 4 or 5 threads lol. Sometimes I just feel the need to encourage people to think about what they are doing a little bit, and to question the thinking behind what they do.
> 
> Everyone is different to an extent. But a lot of us are similar. For every one person who gains muscle on a 5 day split I'd bet there are another 3 who would gain better on 3 times a week training. I've seen it in every gym I've ever trained in over 30 years. It stands to reason the stronger you get the more recovery time you need. Newbies can make gains training more often. And they should do so to learn the exercises and how their bodies react to them.
> 
> We all have a limit to our energy reserves. I could train with weights 7 days a week starting next week but I would have to drop the weights lifted and reduce my intensity. As soon as a weight increases it eats into my energy levels and has to be compensated for elsewhere. The easiest way to do this is to reduce volume. Eventually you are left with 3 times a week training. Or even less in some cases. You can get around this by constantly cycling your training but it's very difficult to get this right. This is what strength athletes do throughout the year and it takes experience and careful planning and logging of weights to do it successfully.
> 
> It's easier for most people to train hard 3 times a week - or whatever - and have a deload week every so often. Or a week off. This is more for the intermediate or advanced trainer. For someone new to the game, I would advise something like a 4 times a week routine with each session revolving around the major lifts - deads, bench, squat, OHP - with a couple of support exercises each day. Once the weights go up on these major exercises your body will be the one which will tell you things need to be adjusted


Nice post. I totally agree with this actually. No way can I do my full time job, train intensely 4 times a week and grow/gain strength. I have tried numerous ways myself. I do think at the outset a 4 way split is better. I think it's true that at the outset people do not really know how to train intensely. It takes time to learn to do this. You should start more threads, I have enjoyed this one. It's like FB vs splits, everyone knows best!


----------



## Mingster

NovemberDelta said:


> Nice post. I totally agree with this actually. No way can I do my full time job, train intensely 4 times a week and grow/gain strength. I have tried numerous ways myself. I do think at the outset a 4 way split is better. I think it's true that at the outset people do not really know how to train intensely. It takes time to learn to do this. You should start more threads, I have enjoyed this one. It's like FB vs splits, everyone knows best!


LOL. We'll see. I usually do my preaching in my journal. It's quieter in there


----------



## Wardy211436114751

The most I have trained is 4 days a week doing Wendlers 5/3/1 and I felt very drained constantly but each 4th week is a deload week with light weights so its 4 days a week for 3 weeks then a light week. Most strength and size building routines you will find created by coaches are based on training 3 or 4 times a week. The ones that are 4 times a week tend to have upper/lower body splits where you train low and heavy twice and higher reps/lighter twice a week. Or alternatively like Wendlers 5/3/1 you have a forced deload week every 4th week. These are routines that have been tried, tested and proven for years and you only have to have a read around forums to find big & strong people using these everywhere.

I think when you're routine is built around heavy squats and deadlifts (especially if you're squatting 2 or 3 x a week) then 3 days is optimal for recovery reasons.

I do think a lot of people train 5/6/7 times a week because they are addicted to the gym and the positive feeling they get from training and fair play to them nothing wrong with that but its definitely not optimal for building size and strength for 99% of people IMO.


----------



## aad123

This is just my view based on my own experiance in the past.

Before the birth on my children I was seriously into playing rugby and I had a very hectic training schedual. I was basically training in one way or another 6 days a week. Monday, Wednesday and Friday were gym days and each session lasted about 1.30 hours. Most of the training was based around compound movements to imporve strength to aid the rugby. Tuesday and Thursday were rugby training which was fairly intence and lasted about 2 hours each session. The training included lots of sprint and endurance work along with tackle bags and scrummage practice. Saturday was match day and sunday was my only day off.

During this period I would say my fitness was better than it has ever been but despite eating very well my muscular development never improved and my weight remained fairly constsnt.

When the children came along the rugby training was dropped as there simply wasn't time to fit it all in. Once I started training in the gym properly on a 3 day split my development improved no end, my fitness took a dip but I began to gain weight and look more muscluar. I then gave a 5 day a week split a try for a few months but I found that it had no benifit what so ever and I began to feel tired and my development went down hill. For me a 3 or 4 day split seems to work well as any more and I just begine to feel like Im over training.

Some people can train quite happily on a 5 dat spilt but for me at my age its just too much. I love training and if I could I would train every day but it would just not enhance my development in any way. Also I don't think the wife would look on it too kindly. :nono:


----------



## empzb

CNS recovery is the most important factor in this and I subscribe to Dutch's thought on growth (granted his thoughts are for assisted and he's a machine).

http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/advanced-bodybuilding/97428-overtraining-dutchs-easy-take-why-its-myth-but-not-heres-how-avoid.html

I've done 3 days for the past couple of years, time for a change now so switching it up to 4, getting decent food and sleep and feeling good so far!


----------



## simonthepieman

When I learnt not to train to failure it was a revelation. Whist at first you feel like you are short changing yourself. When you start getting linear strength gains again it's worth it.

As a natty, you only need to train enough to stimulate growth. Battering your CNS EVERY SESSION doesn't do yourself any favours.

Progressive overload hitting each body part 2x a week with well judged assistance volume based on compounds and the odd isolation will work wonders for almost anyone


----------



## aad123

simonthepieman said:


> When I learnt not to train to failure it was a revelation. Whist at first you feel like you are short changing yourself. When you start getting linear strength gains again it's worth it.
> 
> As a natty, you only need to train enough to stimulate growth. Battering your CNS EVERY SESSION doesn't do yourself any favours.
> 
> Progressive overload hitting each body part 2x a week with well judged assistance volume based on compounds and the odd isolation will work wonders for almost anyone


I agree with the above and I find that I seem to progress better on movements where I dont go to failure.

Has anyone brought the rep range question up yet ? or is this the wrong place and time ?


----------



## simonthepieman

aad123 said:


> I agree with the above and I find that I seem to progress better on movements where I dont go to failure.
> 
> Has anyone brought the rep range question up yet ? or is this the wrong place and time ?


Nooooo not that bombshell.

The rep range thing is a personal thing for most.

But if you have 1-3 compound exercises of 2-3 sets of 5 reps. 2-3 sets of 6-12 compounds and an iso of 5-50 reps. You'll not go wrong


----------



## BodyBuilding101

I train 6 days a week, both cardio and weights....but my aim is to predominantly cut/lose bf so i feel i need to do it etc...plus a bit of that is addiction i think...when i miss a day i feel a bit depressed? :cursing:

But from November im moving abroad, wont have access to a gym regularly so will change to training when i can...maybe 1 to 3 times per week max...so will see how things go.


----------



## aad123

simonthepieman said:


> Nooooo not that bombshell.
> 
> The rep range thing is a personal thing for most.
> 
> But if you have 1-3 compound exercises of 2-3 sets of 5 reps. 2-3 sets of 6-12 compounds and an iso of 5-50 reps. You'll not go wrong


I dissagree lol. Seems that everyone disagrees with anything anyone else posts so I way as well follow the trend.

2-3 sets, are you crazy. That will never work !!!!!!! 

Forgive me I had a amazing session in the gym tonight and Im feeling good. :thumb:


----------



## simonthepieman

aad123 said:


> I dissagree lol. Seems that everyone disagrees with anything anyone else posts so I way as well follow the trend.
> 
> 2-3 sets, are you crazy. That will never work !!!!!!!
> 
> Forgive me I had a amazing session in the gym tonight and Im feeling good. :thumb:


Off your tits on testosterone


----------



## aad123

Those heavy squats will do it ever time.

We better stop taking over Mingster's thread with our jollyness. He's a big fella and I don't want to upset him.


----------



## Mingster

aad123 said:


> Those heavy squats will do it ever time.
> 
> We better stop taking over Mingster's thread with our jollyness. He's a big fella and I don't want to upset him.


Yes, we'll have no frivolity in here dammit!!!  This getting huge business is one serious subject lol.

And speaking of seriousness it's good to remember that enjoying your training is one of the most important, if not the most important, factor involved in the whole training process. I love training and that is what has kept me at it all these years, through highs and lows and all the periods in between. An enjoyable labour is one not resented, and is much more likely to bring you the success you seek.


----------



## GeordieSteve

Very interesting post. I've always trained 5 days a week but I do struggle to gain any weight at all. I'll be giving the 3 days a week sessions a try from next week I reckon


----------



## RowRow

Lowest I will ever go is 4x a week. Ideally though I hit legs 2x a week, and chest, back, delts and arms all once a week.


----------



## retro-mental

Mingster said:


> Yes, we'll have no frivolity in here dammit!!!  This getting huge business is one serious subject lol.
> 
> And speaking of seriousness it's good to remember that enjoying your training is one of the most important, if not the most important, factor involved in the whole training process. I love training and that is what has kept me at it all these years, through highs and lows and all the periods in between. An enjoyable labour is one not resented, and is much more likely to bring you the success you seek.


UK-muslces own yoda !


----------



## retro-mental

I done dips, OHP and Rear delt rows yesterday . I could have done more and i could do some today but the intesity will not be there so i see it as wasted energy , time and recovery !

I have a home gym and could easily fit in training everyday !


----------



## Huntingground

I have been training for less than 3 years and apart from the first 6 months have done the following:-

Mon - Squats

Wed - BP/OHP

Fri - DL

3 warmup sets, 1*1RM and then a "widowmaker" set, essentially 75% of your 1RM for as many reps as possible. 5 sets on Monday, 10 on Wed and 5 on Fri.

I weigh 280lbs (not ripped and I will cut in 6 weeks time) and my lifts are above my avi. Training this way has certainly worked for me.

I read Brawn and Mentzers books and adapted their ideas to what my body was telling me.....................


----------



## MRSTRONG

Huntingground said:


> I have been training for less than 3 years and apart from the first 6 months have done the following:-
> 
> Mon - Squats
> 
> Wed - BP/OHP
> 
> Fri - DL
> 
> 3 warmup sets, 1*1RM and then a "widowmaker" set, essentially 75% of your 1RM for as many reps as possible. 5 sets on Monday, 10 on Wed and 5 on Fri.
> 
> I weigh 280lbs (not ripped and I will cut in 6 weeks time) and my lifts are above my avi. Training this way has certainly worked for me.
> 
> I read Brawn and Mentzers books and adapted their ideas to what my body was telling me.....................


and what was your body telling you :whistling:


----------



## dtlv

Always interesting the range of views and personal experiences on this topic... never a total consensus, and that just indicates that there isn't an absolute answer... just some points for thought as to why;

Recovery is a multi-factoral process and includes (but is probably not limited to):

muscle fiber hypertrophy and repair,

connective tissue recovery,

conversion of intermediate muscle fibers,

adaptations at the neuro-muscular junctions,

increases in bone density,

changes in capiliarization,

changes in mitochondrial density,

immune and inflammatory responses to muscle damage,

neurological adaptations (increasing motor skills),

psychological readiness,

replenishment of energy stores.

These factors/adaptations all recover/occur at different rates but are also situmulated differently relative to themselves and one another depending upon:

training frequency,

training volume within a session,

loading,

degree of intensity (concentric failure, eccentric failure, non-failure training),

relative amount of concentric TUT compared to eccentric TUT,

repetition range,

set volume,

rest between sets,

form of muscle fiber activation employed (isotonic or isometric) and relative amount of each,

inclusion or omission of periodization.

And lets not also forget are further influenced individual variables at a genetic and experience level that account for differing responses:

relative proportions of muscle fiber types due to genetics,

relative proportions of muscle fiber types due to previous training,

cardio fitness,

strength level due to previous training,

strength due to genetic influences (positions of muscle fiber insertions and origins, skeletal leverage, gene polymorphisms at enzymatic and protein encoding levels),

progressiveness and consistency over time,

psychological enjoyment.

With all of these factors involved in both the construct of a workout program and the degree to which a person will respond, no wonder different people respond differently to reach other in regard to frequency and volume, and settle on differing ideas of what is optimal... people train themselves into conditions where different programs become more or less suitable, and are naturally better suited to adapt positively to some forms of training greater than others.

IMO, in respect of the argument over what is optimal, the only conclusion I think is correct to make is that each persons optimal training condition will be slightly different to everyone elses, and at the very least that allows for the view that different people may respond better or worse to greater or lesser volume and or training frequency.

The bottom line though is simply to worry about the details less and enjoy what you do... the mind is perhaps the most important factor in all of it, and I think you can 'placebo' a suboptimal routine into good results if you like it, and can 'nocebo' a good routine into not delivering as well as it could if you approach it apathetically and visualize it poorly.

Enjoy, have fun, and train to be happy... even if your goals are lofty as in wanting to take the sport seriously and compete at a high level this is so important


----------



## Huntingground

ewen said:


> and what was your body telling you :whistling:


What it always tells me - I am fackin' HUNGRY :thumb:


----------



## Bull Terrier

So glad you chimed in @Dtlv74 - I seem to recall you being enthusiastic about Bryan Haycock's HST training, which is 3 full-body workouts per week, which is conceptually quite different to what Mingster is saying.

The gist of HST training, according to Haycock, is that the increased protein synthesis from a training session lasts 36-48 hours before going back to normal - thus frequent sessions training the same bodypart is beneficial.

But @Mingster (please correct me if I've misunderstood) and others recommend 3 times per week, but not full body. Thus muscle groups are trained essentially once per week.

Very different to HST training.

5x5 training, which seems to be growing in popularity, seems to be something in the middle. Squats are done 3 times per week, there are 3 training sessions per week, but other exercises (i.e. apart from squats) are trained every 4/5 days.

So - what's best?? :confused1:


----------



## &lt;JAY_JAY&gt;

Intresting thread, av trained 5 days for years, 37 and natty, diets spot on, in good shape, but being honest with my self i never grow, i would love to gain a little more size, thinking about trying 3 days weights for a few months and see how i go..


----------



## scouse2010

they feel like they need to do that much work

and it gives them something to do


----------



## Chelsea

In the famous words of Lee Priest - "there is no such thing as overtraining, just under eating."


----------



## RACK

I just enjoy it, plus it gets me outta the house.


----------



## scouse2010

Chelsea said:


> In the famous words of Lee Priest - "there is no such thing as overtraining, just under eating."


and under sleeping

dont olympic lifters workout like twice a day


----------



## stone14

Mingster said:


> Why do they?
> 
> I see a lot of trainers using 4/5/6 day a week routines and ask myself why? Now there will always be exceptions, but in all the years that I have trained the vast majority of the biggest, most muscular, trainers have followed 3 time a week routines. Pscarb trains this way, and has Milky following a similar routine. All of the biggest guys in the gyms I use do the same. In fact the biggest guys tend to follow a one on/two off protocol.
> 
> We all accept that we grow when we rest so why don't people rest more? I sometimes think that it's an addiction to exercise itself that makes people train so often, rather than a genuine attempt to develop bigger muscles. Maybe people equate more work with better results, rather than harder work with better results. I don't know.
> 
> There are a lot of 13/14 stone guys who never seem to get any bigger. Are they brainwashed by the magazines? What do you think?


i think its just genetics


----------



## Rykard

Huntingground said:


> I have been training for less than 3 years and apart from the first 6 months have done the following:-
> 
> Mon - Squats
> 
> Wed - BP/OHP
> 
> Fri - DL
> 
> 3 warmup sets, 1*1RM and then a "widowmaker" set, essentially 75% of your 1RM for as many reps as possible. 5 sets on Monday, 10 on Wed and 5 on Fri.
> 
> I weigh 280lbs (not ripped and I will cut in 6 weeks time) and my lifts are above my avi. Training this way has certainly worked for me.
> 
> I read Brawn and Mentzers books and adapted their ideas to what my body was telling me.....................


do you any assistance work with these or is that it?


----------



## Mingster

Bull Terrier said:


> So glad you chimed in @Dtlv74 - I seem to recall you being enthusiastic about Bryan Haycock's HST training, which is 3 full-body workouts per week, which is conceptually quite different to what Mingster is saying.
> 
> The gist of HST training, according to Haycock, is that the increased protein synthesis from a training session lasts 36-48 hours before going back to normal - thus frequent sessions training the same bodypart is beneficial.
> 
> But @Mingster (please correct me if I've misunderstood) and others recommend 3 times per week, but not full body. Thus muscle groups are trained essentially once per week.
> 
> Very different to HST training.
> 
> 5x5 training, which seems to be growing in popularity, seems to be something in the middle. Squats are done 3 times per week, there are 3 training sessions per week, but other exercises (i.e. apart from squats) are trained every 4/5 days.
> 
> So - what's best?? :confused1:


Yes, once a week mate. Although, essentially, quads get a double blast with squats and deads if you do them right.

You can always increase volume slightly by using this system in a one on/ one off manner. but I would still suggest this is too much for the majority of trainers once a certain level of weight and intensity is reached.


----------



## Mingster

Chelsea said:


> In the famous words of Lee Priest - "there is no such thing as overtraining, just under eating."


A nice quote but not one I believe for a second tbh...

Maybe for Lee Priest and I mean maybe, but not for the vast majority...If this were the case there would be no need to cycle training.


----------



## Chelsea

Mingster said:


> A nice quote but not one I believe for a second tbh...
> 
> Maybe for Lee Priest and I mean maybe, but not for the vast majority...If this were the case there would be no need to cycle training.


I know mate it was meant in a joking way  dont get me wrong i could never imagine training every day twice a day, i think the best thing to do is try the different methods and see what works for you.

Look at Dorian he trained 3 times per week for about 45mins whereas his competition were training twice - three times that amount. Its all about training smart.


----------



## Mingster

Chelsea said:


> I know mate it was meant in a joking way  dont get me wrong i could never imagine training every day twice a day, i think the best thing to do is try the different methods and see what works for you.
> 
> Look at Dorian he trained 3 times per week for about 45mins whereas his competition were training twice - three times that amount. Its all about training smart.


It would be fantastic if it were so as I could eat even more than I do now. If that is possible lol...


----------



## Mez

Well, I've just had 2 days with no training at all and it killed me. But did manage to do a lot more in the gym today, so might throw in a couple more rest days a week for a couple of months and see what difference it makes.


----------



## Mingster

Mez said:


> Well, I've just had 2 days with no training at all and it killed me. But did manage to do a lot more in the gym today, so might throw in a couple more rest days a week for a couple of months and see what difference it makes.


This is the conundrum.

Ours heads tell us to get into the gym and train. Our body's tell us to rest up and recover.

Do we train for mental satisfaction or for physical results?

It's something to think about imo.


----------



## Big Kris

Personally i do this split

Chest

Back

legs

Arms

Shoulders

Works great for me as i only have an hour spare at night to get to the gym


----------



## martin brown

scouse2010 said:


> and under sleeping
> 
> dont olympic lifters workout like twice a day


Olympic lifters that train twice a day do it for a living and also spend countless hours on active recovery each week because they are paid to do so.

This is not something the average joe can jump into!

In addition the olympic lifts have very little taxation on the muscles. They have little or no eccentric phase and last for a split second of concentric contraction. This is a world apart from most people's training!

Following my knee accident/surgery I probably got the heaviest I had been by only training twice a week, both just upper body sessions. My legs shrank but my top half grew like mad. And I have been trying to NOT gain weight.


----------



## Huntingground

Rykard said:


> do you any assistance work with these or is that it?


That's all I do mate.

Whereabouts in Leic? I used to live in Aylestone and drink in the Rutland (knocked flat last time I was there  )


----------



## Rykard

Huntingground said:


> That's all I do mate.
> 
> Whereabouts in Leic? I used to live in Aylestone and drink in the Rutland (knocked flat last time I was there  )


Glenfield

there's been a lot of 'redevelopment' lately. Went down braunstone gate last week, new tescos and new leisure centre where MFI and the pump and tap used to be...


----------



## simonthepieman

My lifting improved when I took a powerlifting approach to body building.

Setting long term targets with a realistic and incremental strategy of getting there and chose the exercises that get you there best and not the training that satisfy mental urges.

Setting PRs becomes addictive


----------



## aad123

I get a nice balance training a simple push/pull routine. I train 3 or 4 days a week depending on time and how I feel. I just alternate between the two workouts so each muscle group is trained every 4 to 5 days. I also switch between low rep heavy days and high rep light days. As a natural trainer I delive that you need to increase the training frequency above once a week but a 3 day full body split is a little too much so my current split seem to fit the bill for me. I also use periodisation over a 6 week cycle with increasing sets per week. The final week is a little brutal but the deload week is always a pleasure.


----------



## scouse2010

I belive you can train every day as long as you have a sensible workout routine

mix heavy,medium and light trainign and go some gpp which has been shown to actually help improve recovery

At the moment I am cutting down weight and I am actually lifting weight lifting 6x a week with one hard cardio day with one day rest.

I train each muscle twice a week.

but I am using a light weight but I use very short rest time,start at 20 second rest between each set then the next workout aim for 10second rest,then up the weight a bit and start at 20 seconds.set rep 6x6

I am only on my second week of this program (classing this as my first proper week)

I think this program is going to work well but I'm only sticking at it for 6-8weeks, I think If I stay on it longer than that I may lose strengh.


----------



## Mingster

Of course you can train every day. Is training every day optimum for getting huge? Experience tells me not.


----------



## scouse2010

Mingster said:


> Of course you can train every day. Is training every day optimum for getting huge? Experience tells me not.


well I am training every day to lose weight so I guess its different.

the last year ive just done 3 day full body workouts and they worked ok.

What do you think of 5 day splits for muscle growth,are they only really good for advanced bb who are sculpting there body ?


----------



## Mingster

scouse2010 said:


> well I am training every day to lose weight so I guess its different.
> 
> the last year ive just done 3 day full body workouts and they worked ok.
> 
> What do you think of 5 day splits for muscle growth,are they only really good for advanced bb who are sculpting there body ?


Was only pointing out that the thread was about training for size and the dilemma many find balancing this with their need to train more often.

I'm not really a bodybuilder tbh and have never used a 5 day split. To me 4 days are plenty as I couldn't imagine doing an arms day or adding more than a couple of sets of bi's and tri's to the end of another workout. I've used isolation exercises to bring up smaller muscles such as the rear delts but, even then I find 2 or 3 sets optimum for doing this. As I've pointed out elsewhere I'm a believer in the premise that you can have intensity or you can have volume but you can't have both


----------



## Bull Terrier

@Mingster - what do you think of the 5x5 routine?

Basically it could look like this:

Workout A: squat, bench press, bent-over rows

Workout B: squat, military press, deadlift

Training days: Monday, Wednesday, Friday

Each day you alternate between Workout A and Workout B

Each exercise is done with 5 sets of 5 (after warm-up). Aim is to increase weight each workout. When you stall for 3 workouts in a row, you deload on that exercise and then work back up.

Is this a valid system in your opinion? It meets your idea of 3 workouts per week, but the training frequency is more than once per week per muscle group.


----------



## Mingster

Bull Terrier said:


> @Mingster - what do you think of the 5x5 routine?
> 
> Basically it could look like this:
> 
> Workout A: squat, bench press, bent-over rows
> 
> Workout B: squat, military press, deadlift
> 
> Training days: Monday, Wednesday, Friday
> 
> Each day you alternate between Workout A and Workout B
> 
> Each exercise is done with 5 sets of 5 (after warm-up). Aim is to increase weight each workout. When you stall for 3 workouts in a row, you deload on that exercise and then work back up.
> 
> Is this a valid system in your opinion? It meets your idea of 3 workouts per week, but the training frequency is more than once per week per muscle group.


Yes, it is a good routine imo. I've used very similar routines in the past to good effect.

At the minute I probably train slightly more than 3 times a week tbh. Pretty much a one on/one off routine. 3 times a week is really just a convenient number of workouts to base this thread around. The body doesn't actually recognise a week as a set length of time after all. Having said that, I often take an extra day between workouts if I feel my body needs it, or if I'm building up to a particularly heavy lift or session. I may well only train 3 times in 8 or 9 days on occasion. It all depends on how tired I am, my work schedule, my goals at a particular time and so on.

It's the general principals that counts for me. Am I training hard enough? Am I getting enough food and rest to enable me to train hard enough? Are my lifts going up? Is my intensity enough to stimulate strength and size gains? I love the actual training but I don't want to waste my workouts. I still want the best results possible for the effort expended. If I need an extra workout fix I'll do some core work or grip work or light cardio which won't effect my recovery significantly if you see what I mean.

Any progressive system will get results. Sadly, a lot of peoples workouts only progress for a few weeks at most for a variety of reasons. Too much volume is the most common of these reasons imo...


----------



## dtlv

Bull Terrier said:


> So glad you chimed in @Dtlv74 - I seem to recall you being enthusiastic about Bryan Haycock's HST training, which is 3 full-body workouts per week, which is conceptually quite different to what Mingster is saying.
> 
> The gist of HST training, according to Haycock, is that the increased protein synthesis from a training session lasts 36-48 hours before going back to normal - thus frequent sessions training the same bodypart is beneficial.
> 
> But @Mingster (please correct me if I've misunderstood) and others recommend 3 times per week, but not full body. Thus muscle groups are trained essentially once per week.
> 
> Very different to HST training.
> 
> 5x5 training, which seems to be growing in popularity, seems to be something in the middle. Squats are done 3 times per week, there are 3 training sessions per week, but other exercises (i.e. apart from squats) are trained every 4/5 days.
> 
> So - what's best?? :confused1:


Well the caution with HST is that the volume per session is extremely low - one or two working sets per compound exercise maximum. There is also a periodization aspect to the routine which is equally vital to the whole thing, and as part of that the routine is not one that runs indefinitely... it has a 6-8 week cycle and then you either deload and repeat or move on to a different routine... it doesn't compare well to an ongoing long term routine.

I do rate HST very highly, but I also rate the kind of routine that Ming is suggesting... the best routines for me that I've tried over the years are all actually pretty different, and range from full body routines, upper/lower, PPL to split routines. Each works though only when you tailor the volume and intensity to the frequency and keep it relative to your fitness and strength level... have got things wrong with each of those kinds of split too at different times when not balancing things properly.


----------



## simonthepieman

HST is like DC training. Almost pointless unless you can move some serious tin. But if you can. The benefits of there.

People are too dumb to realise that gains are bigger on a beginner routine than advanced. But people would prefer to train their ego than their lifts


----------



## scouse2010

Bull Terrier said:


> @Mingster - what do you think of the 5x5 routine?
> 
> Basically it could look like this:
> 
> Workout A: squat, bench press, bent-over rows
> 
> Workout B: squat, military press, deadlift
> 
> Training days: Monday, Wednesday, Friday
> 
> Each day you alternate between Workout A and Workout B
> 
> Each exercise is done with 5 sets of 5 (after warm-up). Aim is to increase weight each workout. When you stall for 3 workouts in a row, you deload on that exercise and then work back up.
> 
> Is this a valid system in your opinion? It meets your idea of 3 workouts per week, but the training frequency is more than once per week per muscle group.


there good

starting strengh,texas method,strong lifts,madcows,reg park 5x5 all similar methods


----------



## aad123

I did a 12 week run of dc training and thought it was exelent. It was a challenge but worth the effort. I think that as long as the intensity is sufficient then any training programme will produce results with proper nutrition and rest. A lot of new trainers myself included more than a few years ago, just follow what we see others in the gym doing. As most in the gym don't follow any specific training or diet protocol we fall into the same trap and simply repeat their mistakes. It's only with a little research that we realise that what the majority of gym users are doing just doesn't work.

Over the last few years I have learnt a lot on here about training and diet and my gains have started to increase. Iv seen guys train arms for over an hour and thought to myself what a waste of time, I just add a few sets of barbell curls onto the end of my back day and a few sets of skull crushers after chest and shoulders and my arms are slowly growing.


----------



## martin brown

simonthepieman said:


> HST is like DC training. Almost pointless unless you can move some serious tin. But if you can. The benefits of there.
> 
> People are too dumb to realise that gains are bigger on a beginner routine than advanced. But people would prefer to train their ego than their lifts


This is a good point too often people miss.

What an advanced trainer can "get away with" is much different to a beginner.

Before any skill or motor / fibre recruitment is development in movements there is little point doing advanced techniques such as DC training. Alot of advanced BB'ers change the way they train due to injury etc, simply following their progrmas will not turn you into them, you need to do what they did originally


----------



## dtlv

simonthepieman said:


> HST is like DC training. Almost pointless unless you can move some serious tin. But if you can. The benefits of there.
> 
> People are too dumb to realise that gains are bigger on a beginner routine than advanced. But people would prefer to train their ego than their lifts


I don't think that you need to be particularly strong to benefit from HST... it helps if you can lift reasonably so that you have enough room to select weights decently spaced to periodize the loads, but you don't have to be that advanced... the benefit comes from the periodization relative to your 15, 10 and 5 rep max's, but it doesn't actually matter what those max's are to start with.... you can easily periodize an exercise for HST with a 5 rep max of only about 50kg for example.


----------



## simonthepieman

Dtlv74 said:


> I don't think that you need to be particularly strong to benefit from HST... it helps if you can lift reasonably so that you have enough room to select weights decently spaced to periodize the loads, but you don't have to be that advanced... the benefit comes from the periodization relative to your 15, 10 and 5 rep max's, but it doesn't actually matter what those max's are to start with.... you can easily periodize an exercise for HST with a 5 rep max of only about 50kg for example.


You could, but you could just do linear progression and double your progress.


----------



## dtlv

simonthepieman said:


> You could, but you could just do linear progression and double your progress.


Have you tried HST or periodized hypertrophy routines at all?


----------



## Fatstuff

Dtlv74 said:


> Have you tried HST or periodized hypertrophy routines at all?


I would like to give HST a go but for the life of me, I have no idea how to set the fcuker up lol. Think I'm being a bit dense!!


----------



## simonthepieman

Dtlv74 said:


> Have you tried HST or periodized hypertrophy routines at all?


It's not suited to my goals.

I may give it a go if I decided play rugby again and need bulk up. But then again I've seen far more success with guys doing DC on gear. But bear in mind, I have a near 3 x BW deadlift and a 2x BW squat as a natty and nothing but average genetics.

I still think I'm nothing more than intermediate level trainee so conventional logic says I'd probably be better off with an upper/lower still


----------



## bottleneck25

I used to only train 3 times a week .. But now i do 5 days and i have seen better results ..


----------



## simonthepieman

bens1991 said:


> I used to only train 3 times a week .. But now i do 5 days and i have seen better results ..


Aren't you also running your first course if gear too?


----------



## dtlv

simonthepieman said:


> It's not suited to my goals.
> 
> I may give it a go if I decided play rugby again and need bulk up. But then again I've seen far more success with guys doing DC on gear. But bear in mind, I have a near 3 x BW deadlift and a 2x BW squat as a natty and nothing but average genetics.
> 
> I still think I'm nothing more than intermediate level trainee so conventional logic says I'd probably be better off with an upper/lower still


Well those are good lifts for a natty (have to say so because they are similar to mine :lol: ).

HST is not just a bulking routine though... bear in mind that at the conclusion of an eight week HST run you should have new 15, 10 and 5 rep max's for every exercise performed in the routine... it increases performance over several rep ranges and is good for strength as well as hypertrophy. HST is just way of training though and by no means the only one or necessarily better than other options, is just that it does work well when organised properly.

I agree though if you are training for goals that are different, and what you are doing is working for those goals at a pace you are happy with, then no reason at all to change what you are doing - first rule has to be to stick to what delivers the results.

Upper/lower is my preferred split most of the time (usually with A/B workouts and performed one on/one off and some periodization to the long term structure) for most goals.


----------



## dtlv

Fatstuff said:


> I would like to give HST a go but for the life of me, I have no idea how to set the fcuker up lol. Think I'm being a bit dense!!


It does take a lot of planning, and then usually also some tweaking first time around to get the loading increments right... you also do need to know, or have a good estimate, of your 5, 10 and 15 rep max's for the exercises you are going to use, and testing them out is too much hassle for many people (which I appreciate).

Don't get me wrong, am not an HST fanboy who says everyone should do it... just think that using it and other periodized routines are more advantageous for hypertrophy than many people realise, and the general idea that periodizing training is only for olympic lifters or power lifters often leads bodybuilders to missing out on some very effective forms of training.


----------



## simonthepieman

I'm not saying HST is ****. It's just too many people do stuff like because it sounds cool and advance and that's what the big boys do. When in fact 80% of what got those guys big in the first place was a solid 5x5 full body or tried and tested intermediate routine


----------



## 2H3ENCH4U

3 times a week for ten years will make you big.

6 times a week for a year wont.

I often tell people to turn their enthausiasm into consistancy, thats what will get results.


----------



## dtlv

I think the details of training frequency and volume etc are perhaps less important than nutrition beyond a certain point of training, and this shouldn't be forgotten... a newb with a fairly minimal amount of muscle mass can still support that lean mass and even gain on an average diet, but as muscle mass increases the need for greater attention to nutrition, esp. protein intake which becomes more vital to elevate.

Also a higher frequency routine by nature incurs a greater rate of protein turnover and energy demand compared to lesser frequency training, but many fail on higher frequency routines because they neglect to adjust dietary factors to match their routines, especially when supporting higher muscle masses... sometimes a good routine can apprear not to work simply because the dietary support is inadequate.


----------



## RockyD

Dtlv74 said:


> I think the details of training frequency and volume etc are perhaps less important than nutrition beyond a certain point of training, and this shouldn't be forgotten... a newb with a fairly minimal amount of muscle mass can still support that lean mass and even gain on an average diet, but as muscle mass increases the need for greater attention to nutrition, esp. protein intake which becomes more vital to elevate.
> 
> Also a higher frequency routine by nature incurs a greater rate of protein turnover and energy demand compared to lesser frequency training, but many fail on higher frequency routines because they neglect to adjust dietary factors to match their routines, especially when supporting higher muscle masses... sometimes a good routine can apprear not to work simply because the dietary support is inadequate.


So in other words under eating as opposed to over training.

So much rhubarb in this thread, one going on about pros do this and that another going on about 250 pound, 250 pound, as if this is the holy grail. Think a lot of peeps would rather be a hard 210/220 than a soft and bloofy 250.

As touched on a few posts ago consistency is key if you train, eat consistently year after year with a little chemical assistance unless severely genetically limited you are going to get to a decent size regardless of whether you train 3 or 6 times a week.


----------



## Mingster

RockyD said:


> So in other words under eating as opposed to over training.
> 
> So much rhubarb in this thread, one going on about pros do this and that another going on about 250 pound, 250 pound, as if this is the holy grail. Think a lot of peeps would rather be a hard 210/220 than a soft and bloofy 250.
> 
> As touched on a few posts ago consistency is key if you train, eat consistently year after year with a little chemical assistance unless severely genetically limited you are going to get to a decent size regardless of whether you train 3 or 6 times a week.


250lbs is hardly a holy grail and at no point is it suggested that it is. To make the thread make sense on it's most basic level a yardstick was needed to differentiate between a large muscular person and one who isn't. Phrases like 'decent size' are ambiguous and could mean many things to many people, and are therefore useless in relation to the various points being raised in the thread...


----------



## RockyD

A decent size or quoting 250 pound when we are all different heights and structures and in different nick, not a great deal of difference in ambiguity. Optimal training frequency has been debated for years by world renowned gurus and trainers and the fact is many people have gained amazing results with all sorts of different training and frequency.

An opinion can be given as what one believes works best but i personally would pay little attention to anyone thinking they have sussed out the universal optimal training frequency. Like with most training related things trial and error and finding out what works best for you is usually the best way.


----------



## Mingster

RockyD said:


> A decent size or quoting 250 pound when we are all different heights and structures and in different nick, not a great deal of difference in ambiguity. Optimal training frequency has been debated for years by world renowned gurus and trainers and the fact is many people have gained amazing results with all sorts of different training and frequency.
> 
> An opinion can be given as what one believes works best but i personally would pay little attention to anyone thinking they have sussed out the universal optimal training frequency. Like with most training related things trial and error and finding out what works best for you is usually the best way.


But that is not what is being discussed is it. You might as well talk about carbs in a thread concerning keto diets.

The thread isn't about short, muscular people, or tall, heavy people, or anyone who is overweight or fat. It is about the average man in the street who wants to get big. If you are short, tall or don't want to be a muscular 250lbs look elsewhere. The point is, that over 30 years of training, the vast majority of average height, 250lb, muscular guys I have known train 3 times a week. You state it makes no difference whether you train 3 or 6 times a week as long as you are consistent. I agree with you about the consistency. But why would anyone train 6 times a week to get similar results to training 3 times a week?

That would be stupid. Or would it? Here we get onto one of the deeper points raised in the thread. People who train because they need to. Not to achieve goals but because of a basic, primal need to train. The amount of people who do not follow the optimal method of training to achieve their goals is immense, the majority of trainers in fact. Most people believe that more is better because that is a tenet of the society we live in, and it is a belief that most find difficult to question.

You may get good physique results from training 4/5/6 times a week but that is not the purpose of this thread. If you trained 3 times a week you would undoubtedly get bigger regardless of your structure. Less training means more recovery allowing heavier weights to be lifted meaning more size and growth to enable those lifts. Thus, if you want to be bigger train less. Of course this may not satisfy the real motivation for training for the majority of gym goers...


----------



## Mingster

Here's an extract from Big A's training principles.

Why does a muscle grow? Because it has to adapt. When does it have to adapt? When you expose it to something that it has not done before. When is something that it has not done before? When the muscle is taxed 100%. That's 100% effort. What's 100% effort? When you train to 100% PHYSICAL, not mental failure. So, to make the muscle grow, you have to train with 100% effort otherwise, the muscle will not adapt/grow.

Now, using the above logic, for a set to be beneficial to your growth, it needs to be 100% effort. So, a 100% effort set of an exercise, will make you grow. Then, what is the point to do a second set of that exercise? You cannot go more than 100%. The muscle already has been taxed by 100% from the first set, so why should you do a second one? You will just eat into your recovery ability. So, you should only do one set to failure per exercise. Later on, I will describe the training program and how exercises and warm-ups are involved.

A muscle will not grow until it's recovered. The muscle will not begin to recover until the nervous system is Recovered. It takes roughly 24 hours for the nervous system to recover from a workout. Only then will the muscle begin to recover and grow. So, you should never train 2 days in a row. Even if you train different bodyparts, you still use the same nervous system. You train 2 days in a row, your nervous system recovers, but by the time the muscles begin to, you train again, so the body has to concentrate again on recovering the nervous system.

A training frequency of 3 days per week (Mon, Wed, Fri) is more than enough. Numerous pros, including myself, train like this off season for maximum growth. Even if you use streroids, you still have to train like this. Steroids increase your recovery ability, but they also make you stronger at a quicker rate. The extra strength will give you the ability to train harder/tear more muscle tissue, so you will need the extra recovery that the steroids will give you.


----------



## aad123

Correct me if I'm wrong(I normally am) but didn't Dorian Yates follow a one working, all out, balls to the wall set approach similar to what is described above? If it's good enough for him it can't be too bad a system.


----------



## Mingster

Yes, Dorians' Blood and Guts training is very similar.


----------



## aad123

I have tried the one set aproch but like many it felt like I wasn't doing enough. Also training alone means no forced reps, negatives, strip sets etc so going past failure, which I think is required for this type of training is just not possible. I will go to posative failure on the final set of some exercises but this in not possible on every exercise.

For the last 2 weeks I have been doing 1 on 1 off and my strength has increased and my workouts are more intence. It's too soon to see any increase in size but I'm sure it will come.

I was previously doing 2 on 1 off but found this a little too much.


----------



## Smitch

I much prefer one day on two days off.


----------



## aad123

I'm not sure if I could go that low on frequency but if it worked for you do it. To be honest the 1 on 1 off split came about partly due to family issues but it's working and everyone's happy.


----------



## Mingster

Smitch said:


> I much prefer one day on two days off.


I work with a 20 stone guy who trains this way. He's a natural trainer and has great strength.

I need two days off myself on a regular basis, and if I'm planning on a big lift I'll take three days off beforehand.


----------



## loganator

I train 6 days a week and have no problem gaining weight but having said that i eat like a horse and tbh when im off cycle i slow down a little simply because im sore a little bit longer than when im on cycle so i think it depends on diet , supps etc ....it all depends what siuts you really as everyone is different and you will only find out whats best for you through experimenting in different methods , training protocols etc


----------



## aad123

Mingster said:


> I work with a 20 stone guy who trains this way. He's a natural trainer and has great strength.
> 
> I need two days off myself on a regular basis, and if I'm planning on a big lift I'll take three days off beforehand.


With my measly lifts I would never require 3 days prep.


----------



## Mingster

aad123 said:


> With my measly lifts I would never require 3 days prep.


Maybe at the moment. But as your lifts get heavier you will need longer to recover. If this were not the case lifters would always be lifting around their personal bests and there would be no need to cycle training. Even Usain Bolt can't run world record times year round.


----------



## DazG

Five days a week, works for me the more consistent I am with training the better results I get and I'm putting weight on fine.


----------



## Mingster

DazG said:


> Five days a week, works for me the more consistent I am with training the better results I get and I'm putting weight on fine.


Excellent. Consistency is key to any training programme:thumbup1: As said, there are exceptions. It would be helpful to the thread, however, if you explained why it works for you rather than a more abbreviated routine.


----------



## DazG

Mingster said:


> Excellent. Consistency is key to any training programme:thumbup1: As said, there are exceptions. It would be helpful to the thread, however, if you explained why it works for you rather than a more abbreviated routine.


One muscle group a night, eg/ m-chest, /t-biceps abs cardio,/w- legs, triceps,/ t- shoulders, abs,/ f-back, cardio but very 4 weeks I mix it up throw super sets in, change days round change routines. Keeps it interesting i feel good and I get peace away from the misses.


----------



## Mingster

DazG said:


> One muscle group a night, eg/ m-chest, /t-biceps abs cardio,/w- legs, triceps,/ t- shoulders, abs,/ f-back, cardio but very 4 weeks I mix it up throw super sets in, change days round change routines. Keeps it interesting i feel good and I get peace away from the misses.


Sounds good, especially the bit about the missus This suggests to me, however, that you train for a variety of reasons not simply to get as big as possible. There's nothing wrong with that at all, and it is one of the points of the thread. Feeling good about your training is a very important factor.


----------



## RockyD

Mingster said:


> Here's an extract from Big A's training principles.
> 
> Why does a muscle grow? Because it has to adapt. When does it have to adapt? When you expose it to something that it has not done before. When is something that it has not done before? When the muscle is taxed 100%. That's 100% effort. What's 100% effort? When you train to 100% PHYSICAL, not mental failure. So, to make the muscle grow, you have to train with 100% effort otherwise, the muscle will not adapt/grow.
> 
> Now, using the above logic, for a set to be beneficial to your growth, it needs to be 100% effort. So, a 100% effort set of an exercise, will make you grow. Then, what is the point to do a second set of that exercise? You cannot go more than 100%. The muscle already has been taxed by 100% from the first set, so why should you do a second one? You will just eat into your recovery ability. So, you should only do one set to failure per exercise. Later on, I will describe the training program and how exercises and warm-ups are involved.
> 
> *A muscle will not grow until it's recovered. The muscle will not begin to recover until the nervous system is Recovered. It takes roughly 24 hours for the nervous system to recover from a workout. Only then will the muscle begin to recover and grow*. So, you should never train 2 days in a row. Even if you train different bodyparts, you still use the same nervous system. You train 2 days in a row, your nervous system recovers, but by the time the muscles begin to, you train again, so the body has to concentrate again on recovering the nervous system.
> 
> A training frequency of 3 days per week (Mon, Wed, Fri) is more than enough. Numerous pros, including myself, train like this off season for maximum growth. Even if you use streroids, you still have to train like this. Steroids increase your recovery ability, but they also make you stronger at a quicker rate. The extra strength will give you the ability to train harder/tear more muscle tissue, so you will need the extra recovery that the steroids will give you.


I must admit I do like Big A and his honesty about the doses of PEDs he used to take as a pro is pretty rare and refreshing but everything I have read says that following intense resistance training generally the CNS takes longer to recover than the muscles, so not sure how much of the above is accurate.


----------



## RockyD

loganator said:


> I train 6 days a week and have no problem gaining weight but having said that i eat like a horse and tbh when im off cycle i slow down a little simply because im sore a little bit longer than when im on cycle so i think it depends on diet , supps etc ....it all depends what siuts you really as everyone is different and you will only find out whats best for you through experimenting in different methods , training protocols etc


Well it certainly looks like high frequency is working for you!


----------



## Mingster

RockyD said:


> I must admit I do like Big A and his honesty about the doses of PEDs he used to take as a pro is pretty rare and refreshing but everything I have read says that following intense resistance training generally the CNS takes longer to recover than the muscles, so not sure how much of the above is accurate.


Me neither

However, I do know that if I do heavy squats on, say, Monday, my body isn't ready to train Chest on Tuesday, despite it being a different muscle group. This isn't down to muscle fatigue but, rather, the fact that my CNS hasn't recovered from the massive investment of effort on Monday.


----------



## RockyD

Mingster said:


> Me neither
> 
> However, I do know that if I do heavy squats on, say, Monday, my body isn't ready to train Chest on Tuesday, despite it being a different muscle group. This isn't down to muscle fatigue but, rather, the fact that my CNS hasn't recovered from the massive investment of effort on Monday.


Yeh I agree was just pointing that Big A's piece seems to be based on the false premise that your muscles don't begin to recover until *after* your CNS has recovered.


----------



## Smitch

DazG said:


> One muscle group a night, eg/ m-chest, /t-biceps abs cardio,/w- legs, triceps,/ t- shoulders, abs,/ f-back, cardio but very 4 weeks I mix it up throw super sets in, change days round change routines. Keeps it interesting i feel good and I get peace away from the misses.


I couldn't do this, effectively hitting triceps twice in a week before shoulders day would massively effect my over head pressing in a bad way on shoulders day.


----------



## DazG

Smitch said:


> I couldn't do this, effectively hitting triceps twice in a week before shoulders day would massively effect my over head pressing in a bad way on shoulders day.


Its What works best for you, this is working for me, no point fixing something if it ain't broke. Along with aas I'm getting good gains and feel go in my training


----------



## Mingster

You can put on size using lighter weights and forcing the muscles to grow with supersets and drops sets and the like. For the majority of trainers, however, heavier weights lifted leads to muscle growth and to lift heavy weights you need more recovery time. You can't press heavy after already destroying triceps, just as you can't do truly heavy rows the day after working biceps.


----------



## Ash1981

This is something that has taken me so long to realise.

Now, doing ppl I can actually see and feel muscles getting bigger and harder

And recovery is good enough to progress each week which it's all about

To think I used to train 5 days a week, chest,arms,legs,shoulders,back and play football twice a week makes me laugh

No wonder I stalled for so long

That should be called the catabolism workout right there


----------



## essexboy

Mingster said:


> Here's an extract from Big A's training principles.
> 
> Why does a muscle grow? Because it has to adapt. When does it have to adapt? When you expose it to something that it has not done before. When is something that it has not done before? When the muscle is taxed 100%. That's 100% effort. What's 100% effort? When you train to 100% PHYSICAL, not mental failure. So, to make the muscle grow, you have to train with 100% effort otherwise, the muscle will not adapt/grow.
> 
> Now, using the above logic, for a set to be beneficial to your growth, it needs to be 100% effort. So, a 100% effort set of an exercise, will make you grow. Then, what is the point to do a second set of that exercise? You cannot go more than 100%. The muscle already has been taxed by 100% from the first set, so why should you do a second one? You will just eat into your recovery ability. So, you should only do one set to failure per exercise. Later on, I will describe the training program and how exercises and warm-ups are involved.
> 
> A muscle will not grow until it's recovered. The muscle will not begin to recover until the nervous system is Recovered. It takes roughly 24 hours for the nervous system to recover from a workout. Only then will the muscle begin to recover and grow. So, you should never train 2 days in a row. Even if you train different bodyparts, you still use the same nervous system. You train 2 days in a row, your nervous system recovers, but by the time the muscles begin to, you train again, so the body has to concentrate again on recovering the nervous system.
> 
> A training frequency of 3 days per week (Mon, Wed, Fri) is more than enough. Numerous pros, including myself, train like this off season for maximum growth. Even if you use streroids, you still have to train like this. Steroids increase your recovery ability, but they also make you stronger at a quicker rate. The extra strength will give you the ability to train harder/tear more muscle tissue, so you will need the extra recovery that the steroids will give you.


I dont know who Big A is.However, he has quoted Passages almost word for word from The Nautilus bodybuilding Book!


----------



## Mingster

essexboy said:


> I dont know who Big A is.However, he has quoted Passages almost word for word from The Nautilus bodybuilding Book!


No idea who he is tbh. He raised some interesting points which I mostly agree with.

Here's the full article...http://www.synthetek.com/growth-principles-for-beginners-by-big-a/


----------



## RockyD

Mingster said:


> No idea who he is tbh. He raised some interesting points which I mostly agree with.
> 
> Here's the full article...http://www.synthetek.com/growth-principles-for-beginners-by-big-a/


Big A is the owner of the Professional Muscle forum and an ex competing pro, the problem with his piece here is the fact that he thinks that after intense training the CNS recovers before the muscles and the muscles can only start recovering when the CNS has recovered.

From my reading this is very much incorrect, so how much relevance you pay to someone talking about training splits and recovery times when it doesn't seem they have a basic grasp of how recovery occurs is anybody's guess.

If you believe his statement that the CNS takes 24 hrs to recover after a workout, there should be little reason that you couldn't train very frequently providing you leave sufficient space between training the same muscle group, as by his reckoning your CNS should always be fresh the following day after a workout.


----------



## Mingster

RockyD said:


> Big A is the owner of the Professional Muscle forum and an ex competing pro, the problem with his piece here is the fact that he thinks that after intense training the CNS recovers before the muscles and the muscles can only start recovering when the CNS has recovered.
> 
> From my reading this is very much incorrect, so how much relevance you pay to someone talking about training splits and recovery times when it doesn't seem they have a basic grasp of how recovery occurs is anybody's guess.
> 
> If you believe his statement that the CNS takes 24 hrs to recover after a workout, there should be little reason that you couldn't train very frequently providing you leave sufficient space between training the same muscle group, as by his reckoning your CNS should always be fresh the following day after a workout.


Yes, But who is he?

I say I mostly agree with what he says if you read correctly. I agree insofar as I believe it is counter productive to train on two consecutive days - although I have to do this myself sometimes - as it is, imo, impossible to train with the intensity/effort required on the second day regardless of it being down to CNS recovery, muscle recovery, mental recovery or whatever.

Yes, some people train more than this and develop their physiques, but I'll wager the majority of them built their mass on abbreviated programmes before honing their muscle for bodybuilding shows.

Also there are plenty of top level bodybuilders who, although supporting impressive muscle development, aren't exactly big, which is the point of this thread. My good mate has been a top level competitive bodybuilder for many years and has finished in the places at the NABBA Universe on several occasions but I could still pick him up and press him overhead for sets of 20


----------



## Mingster

Even 3 day a week training may be too much for many gym goers.

I work with a lad in his 40's, completely natural, who follows this routine http://oldschooltrainer.com/minimalist-power-and-bulk/ religiously. He can squat 260kg and deadlift 280kg and he is still gaining size and strength from a one on/two off protocol.


----------



## C.Hill

I trained 3 days a week for about 6 months. Switched to 5/6 days and am progressing a lot more in size and strength. It's in my log somewhere so i know it's working for me


----------



## BodyBuilding101

Mingster, would you still follow a 3 times a week split or 1dayon/2off if you were cutting?

Im trying to drop bf% and right now im doing 6 days a week in the gym, somedays cv in the evening as well...but in 4 weeks time i wont have access to a gym regularly...maybe 1 or 2 time max...so will see how the less is more principle works for me. I take it you could still maintain a level of leanness as long as you watched you diet/calorie intake?

- - - Updated - - -

Mingster, would you still follow a 3 times a week split or 1dayon/2off if you were cutting?

Im trying to drop bf% and right now im doing 6 days a week in the gym, somedays cv in the evening as well...but in 4 weeks time i wont have access to a gym regularly...maybe 1 or 2 time max...so will see how the less is more principle works for me. I take it you could still maintain a level of leanness as long as you watched you diet/calorie intake?


----------



## Mingster

C.Hill said:


> I trained 3 days a week for about 6 months. Switched to 5/6 days and am progressing a lot more in size and strength. It's in my log somewhere so i know it's working for me


You're doing very well mate:thumbup1:


----------



## Mingster

BodyBuilding101 said:


> Mingster, would you still follow a 3 times a week split or 1dayon/2off if you were cutting?
> 
> Im trying to drop bf% and right now im doing 6 days a week in the gym, somedays cv in the evening as well...but in 4 weeks time i wont have access to a gym regularly...maybe 1 or 2 time max...so will see how the less is more principle works for me. I take it you could still maintain a level of leanness as long as you watched you diet/calorie intake?
> 
> I follow a 6 week bulk/6 week cut protocol, and my training days and exercises don't change. I use forced reps, negatives and drop sets on the bulks and substitute with straight sets on the cuts but, otherwise, the training remains unchanged. The only changes when cutting are the fact that I eat 500cals less a day, and do 25 minute cardio sessions on a rowing machine on my non weights days. I've dropped a lot of bodyfat without losing any actual weight over the last 8 months using this method.


----------



## martin brown

Just to play Devil's Advocate - most athletes in most sports train alot more frequently than 3 times a week


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## Mingster

martin brown said:


> Just to play Devil's Advocate - most athletes in most sports train alot more frequently than 3 times a week


LOL. You trying to get me to alienate the whole forum here?


----------



## martin brown

Mingster said:


> LOL. You trying to get me to alienate the whole forum here?


  Well most sprinters, NFL players, Olympic weightlifters, MMA fighters, etc etc have good physiques?!


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## simonthepieman

I still think an 4 day upper/lower is better mass gaining routine thana 3 day split. Although a 3 day split split hit the full body (or at least 2x week frequency) ****s on a 5 day split for the natty.

even athletes who train more than 3 times a week don't go 100% ever session, they moderate intensity. something the average gym monkey seems incapable of


----------



## Mingster

martin brown said:


> Well most sprinters, NFL players, Olympic weightlifters, MMA fighters, etc etc have good physiques?!


Yes they do

Some of us...er, athletes need an early night lol. If no one else takes up the baton - see what I did there? - I'll be back tomorrow:thumbup1:


----------



## boxinmetx

Mingster said:


> Why do they?
> 
> I see a lot of trainers using 4/5/6 day a week routines and ask myself why? Now there will always be exceptions, but in all the years that I have trained the vast majority of the biggest, most muscular, trainers have followed 3 time a week routines. Pscarb trains this way, and has Milky following a similar routine. All of the biggest guys in the gyms I use do the same. In fact the biggest guys tend to follow a one on/two off protocol.
> 
> We all accept that we grow when we rest so why don't people rest more? I sometimes think that it's an addiction to exercise itself that makes people train so often, rather than a genuine attempt to develop bigger muscles. Maybe people equate more work with better results, rather than harder work with better results. I don't know.
> 
> There are a lot of 13/14 stone guys who never seem to get any bigger. Are they brainwashed by the magazines? What do you think?


great points but the bigger and stronger/more advanced you get the more stress you are putting on your body and the bigger the weights you are lifting, at the moment i find each muscle every 6th day to be great, i do struggle to find the right routine so i put in max effort into each body part, for example after chest sometimes i feel my delts aren't getting the same level of intensity, constantly evolving and learning lol


----------



## Big Kris

I train 6 days a week my self as im currently doing chest twice a week

Ive never liked doing two muscle grups in one session, ive found doing one works well for me

My week looks like this

Monday - Chest

Tuesday - Legs

Wednesday - Back

Thursday - Chest

Friday - Shoulders - Traps

Saturday - Arms

Currently also doing cardio in a morning fasted Monday - Tuesday - Thursday- Friday


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## Tag

i lift weights 3x a week

i do sprinting 2x a week when i can be bothered, the rest of the time i get enough cardio training other people

sometimes i feel like crap the moment i lift the empty bar, so mentally i just erase whatever i had planned for that workout, and feel my way into it, choosing exercises basd on what muscles feel tight/strong/tired/unused etc

other times i totally smash a muscle because i got a new personal best on a big compound lift, for example

and other times i take a week off because i am sick of the sight of weights, and find that i come back stronger

the point i am making is that you must listen to your body

it has days where it likes going 200%, and it has days where it can barely go 20%

learn to recognise and train accordingly

edit: comparisons with athletes are ridiculous, the above assumes a natural training, healthy, unremarkable male who does not lift weights as part of training for a professional sport


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## engllishboy

I like training. If i didn't train, then i'd have not much to do for that day lol. Happy with the results, and how things are going so i won't be changing it anytime soon.


----------



## Mingster

martin brown said:


> Well most sprinters, NFL players, Olympic weightlifters, MMA fighters, etc etc have good physiques?!


Yes, but these guys are training for more than just size. They are also training in areas relevant to their particular sports. We're talking weight training days here, for the particular purpose of attaining size, which none of the above prioritize...

Just a brief summary as this is an old thread not often visited.

The 3x a week thing was specifically aimed aimed at bigger guys, 250 pounders, or people aiming to achieve that sort of size...


----------



## icamero1

how many times you train a week is surely irrelevant as evryone trains at different rep ranges, has longer/shorter rests, does more sets etc.. so wouldnt it be better to compare how many sets on each muscle group people do a week? I rekon everyone actually trains quite similar to each other, but speads it out differently.. for example, I train 5 days a week, but only for 40 mins a sesh, so 3hrs 20 mins, which is probably a similar time to the 3 times a week trainers. and I do about 12-15 sets per bodypart, which i rekon is similar to most of the people on UK-M


----------



## Mingster

icamero1 said:


> how many times you train a week is surely irrelevant as evryone trains at different rep ranges, has longer/shorter rests, does more sets etc.. so wouldnt it be better to compare how many sets on each muscle group people do a week? I rekon everyone actually trains quite similar to each other, but speads it out differently.. for example, I train 5 days a week, but only for 40 mins a sesh, so 3hrs 20 mins, which is probably a similar time to the 3 times a week trainers. and I do about 12-15 sets per bodypart, which i rekon is similar to most of the people on UK-M


Not for the majority of people wishing to be 250lbs plus....

The only guy of that size to have argued for more sessions a week on the original thread was Papa Lazarou who later started another thread to say that his gains had exploded after adopting a reduced training regimen


----------



## lickatsplit

I train 5 days a week, Why? Becuase I go at lunchtimes and I hate sitting at my desk when I don't have to. Sometimes I feel I've over trainied come thursday friday, but I battle through it.


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## Mingster

In reality the majority of people train in a way that is not geared up to size.

Most people say things like 'It doesn't feel like I'm doing enough,' when beginning size/strength programmes without realizing that 6 weeks down the line such a programme will cripple them with the effort then required.

A lot of people train more often because they get a 'buzz' from the act of training, or because they are 'bored' with nothing better to do as an excise for this.

To get big, and by big I mean 250lbs plus at a normal height - not 6 foot 4 and a beanpole - the most effective way to achieve this is to train with less volume and frequency but with greater effort. Everyone has a limited amount of effort/energy they can put into their weekly training. Whether they choose to put all of this effort into 2 or 3 exercises, 2 or 3 times a week, or dilute it between 4 or 5 exercises a body part 5 or 6 days a week will determine the type of physique they will normally attain.


----------



## mozzwigan

Little_Jay said:


> big bear trains alot more frequent than that, and he is one of the biggest men around
> 
> different bodys/diets mate


mon-wed-fri is more than enough in my book


----------



## Was_Eric

i am a fitness freak at the minute

(well say at the minute, i box and as its summer its off season so im resting a lot)

when im in full flow im in the gym at least 5 times a week

i love it


----------



## Armz

Mingster said:


> Why do they?
> 
> I see a lot of trainers using 4/5/6 day a week routines and ask myself why? Now there will always be exceptions, but in all the years that I have trained the vast majority of the biggest, most muscular, trainers have followed 3 time a week routines. Pscarb trains this way, and has Milky following a similar routine. All of the biggest guys in the gyms I use do the same. In fact the biggest guys tend to follow a one on/two off protocol.
> 
> We all accept that we grow when we rest so why don't people rest more? I sometimes think that it's an addiction to exercise itself that makes people train so often, rather than a genuine attempt to develop bigger muscles. Maybe people equate more work with better results, rather than harder work with better results. I don't know.
> 
> There are a lot of 13/14 stone guys who never seem to get any bigger. Are they brainwashed by the magazines? What do you think?


I need to train less. I think I'm addicted plus I'm running away from my demons.


----------



## Brook877

Mingster said:


> The 3x a week thing was specifically aimed aimed at bigger guys, 250 pounders, or people aiming to achieve that sort of size...


I weighed in at 253lb on Tuesday so I guess I'm now officially a "bigger guy" and if Mingster says I am I'm not going to argue.. 

I personally do three sessions through the week, (about an hour each) plus a half session on a Saturday mornings that is pretty much just deadlifts and anything I feel I've slacked on through the week, over the last few years I've tried 4/5/6 day splits and I've always felt more than two consecutive days in the gym and I just don't have the strength and energy to really justify even being there.

If I was trying to drop bf and wasn't concerned about building/preserving muscle I might do things differently, but that's not my aim so in terms of adding size I'm perfectly happy with my 3/3 and bit day split.


----------



## Mingster

And for whoever said that bigbear trains more...There's an exception or two to everything and/or...

Has he always trained more often or does he do it now to refine the size he already has? SolidCecil trains more often nowadays but he recently posted the routine he used for many years as a p/p/l with 3 exercises a session based around the three powerlifts...


----------



## Fatstuff

I'm still a 4xa weeker!! It suits me because once I've done my main lift, I haven't got much left to do so I can fcuk off. I go more often because I'm lazy, that make sense?  lol


----------



## TwoCanVanDamn

Im a 5-6 time a weeker. On cycle I was always up around 265 - 270 and now ive been off 8 months im 245 but leaner and still train the same. If it didn't work I wouldn't do it but I do intend on dropping down to 4 times a week after my holiday just to see how I fare. Never 3 times a week though, I enjoy training too much


----------



## Mingster

TwoCanVanDamn said:


> Im a 5-6 time a weeker. On cycle I was always up around 265 - 270 and now ive been off 8 months im 245 but leaner and still train the same. If it didn't work I wouldn't do it but I do intend on dropping down to 4 times a week after my holiday just to see how I fare. Never 3 times a week though, I enjoy training too much


Yes, but you're 8 feet tall so doesn't count


----------



## littlesimon

I only train twice a week in the gym, 2 fullbody routines.

Supplement those two days with a day of bodyweight stuff at an outdoor park gym, penitentiary style :lol: , a bunch of pull ups and dips.

Training twice a week allows me to get my training in when life happens to throw up some ****.

Think if I relied on a 5 day split I'd be missing a whole bunch of session week in week out.


----------



## Smitch

3 days a week from me.

Push/pull/legs


----------



## Mingster

And another thing while I'm at it lol...

I can never understand the trainers who have to do a certain bodypart on a specific day. Chest is Mondays, Legs on Fridays type thing. Surely you rotate your sessions so that, if something crops up that causes you to miss one, you catch up on that bodypart the following session. I've lost count of the guys that mysteriously always find something crops up on Legs day and so miss it entirely that week.

Never happens on Chest day:whistling:


----------



## BigTrev

Mingster said:


> Why do they?
> 
> I see a lot of trainers using 4/5/6 day a week routines and ask myself why? Now there will always be exceptions, but in all the years that I have trained the vast majority of the biggest, most muscular, trainers have followed 3 time a week routines. Pscarb trains this way, and has Milky following a similar routine. All of the biggest guys in the gyms I use do the same. In fact the biggest guys tend to follow a one on/two off protocol.
> 
> We all accept that we grow when we rest so why don't people rest more? I sometimes think that it's an addiction to exercise itself that makes people train so often, rather than a genuine attempt to develop bigger muscles. Maybe people equate more work with better results, rather than harder work with better results. I don't know.
> 
> There are a lot of 13/14 stone guys who never seem to get any bigger. Are they brainwashed by the magazines? What do you think?


Put perfectly right mate..

Only thing is at the end you should have put..

So if you want to be like BigTrev then rest more:laugh:


----------



## engllishboy

Mingster said:


> And another thing while I'm at it lol...
> 
> I can never understand the trainers who have to do a certain bodypart on a specific day. Chest is Mondays, Legs on Fridays type thing. Surely you rotate your sessions so that, if something crops up that causes you to miss one, you catch up on that bodypart the following session. I've lost count of the guys that mysteriously always find something crops up on Legs day and so miss it entirely that week.
> 
> Never happens on Chest day:whistling:


I go out of my way not to have my push day on a Monday, just to avoid all the people training chest.


----------



## mikemull

I hover at around 17 stone most of the time and I find that as a natty if I'm trying to gain size and strength then as you say less is more so 3 or at a max 4 sessions a week based around the big compounds with low rep work but if I'm trying to cut then that's when I need more volume so maybe 5 or so sessions with higher reps. From what I've seen with friends and on here I think people on gear can gain well with higher volume but nattys need to stick the less is more attitude.


----------



## simonthepieman

i'm normally 4 times a week. Upper/lower hitting everything twice moderately and not training to faliure (which is probably the key factor to training at a greater frequency)


----------



## Bull Terrier

I'm also a training addict and there's nothing I like more than being in gym. Having said that I train with weights 3 times per week. I still go other days though but just limit myself to doing cardio.

Personally I believe Mingster on this - most people do better by not training with weights more than 3 times per week. I actually would go much further and say that most people train far too much by doing too many sets, exercises on top of training too many days per week. But that's just my 2 cents.


----------



## TommyFire

I train so much cos I got fvck all else to do lol!


----------



## Mingster

TommyFire said:


> I train so much cos I got fvck all else to do lol!


Well, this is partly the point of the thread, hence the thread title.

Many people train more, like yourself, for something to do with their time. Others train more often because they enjoy it so much, or need the buzz they get from training. Still others train because they feel more is better, the guilt syndrome if you like...None of which are conducive to adding size but are, nevertheless, perfectly valid for there own reasons.

The reasoning behind the thread is that there would be many more 'big' trainers if people trained only for results, but people are complicated creatures and there are many, many factors to be taken into account for every action they undertake. Training, like life, is rarely simple.


----------



## PHMG

Ive been guilty of this. Even when i know i needed a break, i'd go train. Its definitely an addiction. I want that pump feeling all over. Probably more than i want to grow hence why i dont rest when i needed it.


----------



## mikemull

Also I believe to many people read flex or whatever and think they should follow the latest PHIL Heath or flex wheeler routine to the letter forgetting that they do it full time, have the best food, supplements and gear in the world and have all the time in the world to rest and recover while we do it as a hobby after work!


----------



## str4nger

I train 5 days usually and 6 days when dieting with morning cardio.

I do not wish to get any bigger, I train more regularly so that I can split my routine into smaller groups of body parts and focus on them more and address my weak parts


----------



## Mingster

mikemull said:


> Also I believe to many people read flex or whatever and think they should follow the latest PHIL Heath or flex wheeler routine to the letter forgetting that they do it full time, have the best food, supplements and gear in the world and have all the time in the world to rest and recover while we do it as a hobby after work!


I know a couple of PI's - military guys rather than spotty faced gym coaches - who work in a gym environment every day. They train a little every day but have told me that, even though they have no other work pressures, unlimited gym, and rest, access that they would have days off from training if they could. I must admit if I worked in a gym I'd find it very difficult not to do something every day, the temptation would be too great. The point being, that even with unlimited gym access you need to structure what you do with care otherwise it all mounts up and becomes counter productive to you goals.


----------



## mikemull

Mingster said:


> I know a couple of PI's - military guys rather than spotty faced gym coaches - who work in a gym environment every day. They train a little every day but have told me that, even though they have no other work pressures, unlimited gym, and rest, access that they would have days off from training if they could. I must admit if I worked in a gym I'd find it very difficult not to do something every day, the temptation would be too great. The point being, that even with unlimited gym access you need to structure what you do with care otherwise it all mounts up and becomes counter productive to you goals.


This is true ice always said if I worked in a gym I'd train twice a day at least!


----------



## MattGriff

Because I am ugly and I can't sing, dance or play football.


----------



## Mingster

str4nger said:


> I train 5 days usually and 6 days when dieting with morning cardio.
> 
> I do not wish to get any bigger, I train more regularly so that I can split my routine into smaller groups of body parts and focus on them more and address my weak parts


Yes, the premise of the thread is goal dependant. Getting bigger is the point of the thread. Ironically, I don't want to get any bigger either, in fact I'm planning on downsizing a little tbh. Having said that, I still intend to get stronger so the limited training protocol still applies to me. Obviously once you get to where you want to be different principals will apply.


----------



## Mingster

MattGriff said:


> Because I am ugly and I can't sing, dance or play football.


I can't sing, dance or whistle...And I always used to get sent off playing football


----------



## Smitch

Mingster said:


> Well, this is partly the point of the thread, hence the thread title.
> 
> Many people train more, like yourself, for something to do with their time. Others train more often because they enjoy it so much, or need the buzz they get from training. Still others train because they feel more is better, the guilt syndrome if you like...None of which are conducive to adding size but are, nevertheless, perfectly valid for there own reasons.
> 
> The reasoning behind the thread is that there would be many more 'big' trainers if people trained only for results, but people are complicated creatures and there are many, many factors to be taken into account for every action they undertake. Training, like life, is rarely simple.


Training is just a means to an end for me, i like to be big and strong so i need to do it.

It's not that i don't enjoy it, because i do, but sometimes i struggle to get 3 sessions in a week let alone 5 and really try and do the bare minimum to get the results i want.


----------



## Ben_Dover

If i'm not in the gym i'm usually eating crap or drinking too much cider.

I basically have 0 will power and the gym keeps me on track 4/5 nights a week!


----------



## tamara

If you read my cousins Facebook you'd think he was in the biggest best shape ever cos he is always at the gym. But I've seen him there at peak times, he walks in eating a mcflurry and just walks from person to person chatting, handing out sweets and updating his Facebook.


----------



## huarache

Mingster said:


> Why do they?
> 
> I see a lot of trainers using 4/5/6 day a week routines and ask myself why? Now there will always be exceptions, but in all the years that I have trained the vast majority of the biggest, most muscular, trainers have followed 3 time a week routines. Pscarb trains this way, and has Milky following a similar routine. All of the biggest guys in the gyms I use do the same. In fact the biggest guys tend to follow a one on/two off protocol.
> 
> We all accept that we grow when we rest so why don't people rest more? I sometimes think that it's an addiction to exercise itself that makes people train so often, rather than a genuine attempt to develop bigger muscles. Maybe people equate more work with better results, rather than harder work with better results. I don't know.
> 
> There are a lot of 13/14 stone guys who never seem to get any bigger. Are they brainwashed by the magazines? What do you think?


i dont look at magazines or compare myself to anyone but the ideal shape/place i wanna be in my head

reason i go so much, is probably cause im psychologically thinking that if i dont i will not get bigger.... its a crazy thought cause i know i wont get bigger or stronger in the gym, it will be when ive eaten and rested a while.. but im still drawn to go


----------



## a.notherguy

the gym has better showers, and they are free


----------



## Mingster

a.notherguy said:


> the gym has better showers, and they are free


There was a time when I was down on my luck that I used to take advantage of this lol. There was no need to train first of course...


----------



## a.notherguy

Mingster said:


> There was a time when I was down on my luck that I used to take advantage of this lol. There was no need to train first of course...


ha ha!

ive been known to do similar, in the winter i have popped in for 5 mins on the rowing machine during a quiet time, followed by a steaming hot half hour shower with mulitple showers pointing at me


----------



## a.notherguy

RS4 said:


> I assume your joking? well i hope so anyway
> 
> I hate people who train in groups of 3 chatting all the time or people who use their phone in between sets, just leave it in the locker and train for 45minutes. The world dosent need to know your about to bench 100kg and now you think your the boy.
> 
> Handing out sweets and eating a mcflurry well thats bound to be a wind up


id fooking love it if there was someone wandering round my gym handing out sweets! a great reason to train everynight! lmao


----------



## TwoCanVanDamn

Mingster said:


> Yes, but you're 8 feet tall so doesn't count


LOL you cvnt im only 6'3!

I like to think I have a physique like Alistair Overeem


----------



## theBEAST2002

i used to train 6 times a week over 4 days. i've dropped it down to 4 days a week as i'm getting on a bit.


----------



## TwoCanVanDamn

TwoCanVanDamn said:


> LOL you cvnt im only 6'3!
> 
> I like to think I have a physique like Alistair Overeem


I had a medical the other day and it turns out I'm 6'2. The nurse commented on how fvcking jacked I am though so that was nice


----------



## Contest

theBEAST2002 said:


> i used to train 6 times a week over 4 days. i've dropped it down to 4 days a week as i'm getting on a bit.


How old are u pal?

I'm currently training 6x per week (PPPL) but can feel the fatigue setting in so will be switching to PPPL once a week for 2 weeks just to recharge my batteries.


----------



## theBEAST2002

Contest said:


> How old are u pal?
> 
> I'm currently training 6x per week (PPPL) but can feel the fatigue setting in so will be switching to PPPL once a week for 2 weeks just to recharge my batteries.


Early 40's, I used to do:

Chest & Bi's x2 (becuase my chest was my weakest body part)

Legs & Abs x2 (a strong set of legs wins competitions)

Back & Abs once a week

Delts & Tri's once a week

Now i'm just going to take away the extra chest and legs session


----------



## stone14

I wouldn't have guessed your over 40 by your avi.


----------



## marknorthumbria

Mingster said:


> Why do they?
> 
> I see a lot of trainers using 4/5/6 day a week routines and ask myself why? Now there will always be exceptions, but in all the years that I have trained the vast majority of the biggest, most muscular, trainers have followed 3 time a week routines. Pscarb trains this way, and has Milky following a similar routine. All of the biggest guys in the gyms I use do the same. In fact the biggest guys tend to follow a one on/two off protocol.
> 
> We all accept that we grow when we rest so why don't people rest more? I sometimes think that it's an addiction to exercise itself that makes people train so often, rather than a genuine attempt to develop bigger muscles. Maybe people equate more work with better results, rather than harder work with better results. I don't know.
> 
> There are a lot of 13/14 stone guys who never seem to get any bigger. Are they brainwashed by the magazines? What do you think?


I train every other day push pull legs..I like this split

One full day is ample rest


----------



## Mingster

marknorthumbria said:


> I train every other day push pull legs..I like this split
> 
> One full day is ample rest


How tall are you?


----------



## marknorthumbria

Mingster said:


> How tall are you?


6ft....with shoes on


----------



## Mingster

Well you fit the criteria As long as you are also 250lbs or more.

You are also the first person on this thread to achieve this. Apart from Papa Lazarou who admits his gains improved massively when he reduced his sessions.


----------



## marknorthumbria

Mingster said:


> Well you fit the criteria As long as you are also 250lbs or more.
> 
> You are also the first person on this thread to achieve this. Apart from Papa Lazarou who admits his gains improved massively when he reduced his sessions.


I am 24, 220lbs around 10%

PB on incline 70kg DBS of 15 reps

My gains improved best with diet more importantly than worrying about volume of training.

I have been training EOD for only half a year but this i will stick to now..


----------



## Mingster

I rarely start a thread. When I do it's usually for more than one reason. Although I do say that there will always be exceptions, the vast majority of 'big' trainers I have met over 30 years of training have achieved their size through what many would describe as low volume routines - one on/one off or one on/two off routines. I defined 'big' as 6 foot or under and 250 or so lbs. This was a random definition for convenience.

Most people train more than this, and most people never reach the 'bigness' they crave. The routine is one reason but there are many more reasons. Many people train often because they get a buzz from training. Others feel guilty if they are not in the gym every day. Still more enjoy the social side of their gym life. And so on and so on.

The bottom line is, imo, that most people do not train in an optimum fashion to become 'big' - 250lbs plus and powerful looking, not shredded bodybuilder looks. This is why the majority of gym goers look the same year in year out. Lots of people have agreed with this during this thread, some have reassessed their motives for going to the gym. Ironically those that argued most vehemently against this theory turned out be be much smaller that the thread criteria.

Yes, you can get a great physique by training more often. Can you get a 250lb physique at 6 foot or less by training more often? It's possible, but extremely rare.

Yes, lots of bodybuilders are 250lbs plus and train most every day. Did they originally build their mass from such a routine. No they did not. Everyone in Flex magazine is honing their physiques not laying the foundations. It's an opinion based on observation over many, many gym years and has provided much debate in this thread. That's what it's all about


----------



## BigTrev

I train 4 times a week and cover each muscle group once..

I have plenty of rest and decent sleep and keep all sets to 3 with 1 to failure at times.

I have been natty for quite sometime now and the amount of mass and quality muscle I have put on lately is great.

Rest is the key and a half decent diet plus a good routine and finally in my latter years I think I have found a good balance and cracked it which im happy and comfortable with.Think I will be happy at the 19st mark and im not far away.


----------



## marknorthumbria

BigTrev said:


> I train 4 times a week and cover each muscle group once..
> 
> I have plenty of rest and decent sleep and keep all sets to 3 with 1 to failure at times.
> 
> I have been natty for quite sometime now and the amount of mass and quality muscle I have put on lately is great.
> 
> Rest is the key and a half decent diet plus a good routine and finally in my latter years I think I have found a good balance and cracked it which im happy and comfortable with.


You forgot to mention your p1ssed 5 nights a week mate lol


----------



## BigTrev

marknorthumbria said:


> You forgot to mention your p1ssed 5 nights a week mate lol


LOL actually im not,,the most im drunk is twice weekly tho mostly once,, either on a Saturday or a sunday depending on the sports I follow.

If I chose to hit the aas I wouldn't drink again at all tho I enjoy socialising at weekends more than aas at this moment

Its all about a good balance which you enjoy without fuking up routines:thumb:


----------



## shaunmac

I've recently adjusted my plan from training most days (thinking it would get me big), to training 3 days a week (I work around a shift pattern so average it around a 5 week rota)

I feel much better and more recovered going into workouts, I'll hopefully end up gaining more over time aswel. That's the theory anyway.

My main issue is eating, so I figure if I train less often, I'll exert less calories through training, so hopefully more food will go into repairing my muscles and growth instead of energy for going to the gym


----------



## Southern Karate Guy

i train 6 days a week at home but im just getting back into shape and i dont have a life.....


----------



## flinty90

I have definitely put more size on training less than i did at 4/5times per week

I train 4 times over 14 days at minute. Strength going up every session

And size following tbh.. So less is definitely more for me


----------



## massmuscle

Mingster said:


> I rarely start a thread. When I do it's usually for more than one reason. Although I do say that there will always be exceptions, the vast majority of 'big' trainers I have met over 30 years of training have achieved their size through what many would describe as low volume routines - one on/one off or one on/two off routines. I defined 'big' as 6 foot or under and 250 or so lbs. This was a random definition for convenience.
> 
> Most people train more than this, and most people never reach the 'bigness' they crave. The routine is one reason but there are many more reasons. Many people train often because they get a buzz from training. Others feel guilty if they are not in the gym every day. Still more enjoy the social side of their gym life. And so on and so on.
> 
> The bottom line is, imo, that most people do not train in an optimum fashion to become 'big' - 250lbs plus and powerful looking, not shredded bodybuilder looks. This is why the majority of gym goers look the same year in year out. Lots of people have agreed with this during this thread, some have reassessed their motives for going to the gym. Ironically those that argued most vehemently against this theory turned out be be much smaller that the thread criteria.
> 
> Yes, you can get a great physique by training more often. Can you get a 250lb physique at 6 foot or less by training more often? It's possible, but extremely rare.
> 
> Yes, lots of bodybuilders are 250lbs plus and train most every day. Did they originally build their mass from such a routine. No they did not. Everyone in Flex magazine is honing their physiques not laying the foundations. It's an opinion based on observation over many, many gym years and has provided much debate in this thread. That's what it's all about


Dorian Yates trained 3-4 times a week for 40mins a session, and he took the sport to a new level in term of mass and conditioning.


----------



## geologywill

addicted


----------



## Mark W H

I've been training twice a week for years now and as long as i don't lose focus i can make progress. Recently started doing just squat, bench & DL only, hard and heavy and for reps in both sessions. Weights are ramping up at 2.5 kg every session and as i hit failure i will knock the weight back by 7.5 kg and start again from there. Its slow progress but 8 weeks in and i'm seeing some definite size gains (6ft and 205lb)


----------



## K1NGCA1N

I train 4-5 times a week if I can for 1 - 1.30 hours, usually just the 4 though. I just love smashing the weights!

I try and do the push pull legs routine but sometime just mix things up if I feel like it. I am assisted though and been eating like a beast, though starting to get sick of eating so damn much! I recently hit 22 stone at 6'6",I was 19.5 before my course and Im prob carrying about 20% BF, I'm not too ****d about the super ripped look just yet as I just like being huge!, I have just started cutting and on Winny until I start my PCT (Despite some @rsehole nicking my stash from my bag)

I'm sure it would be a different story If I was a Natty but I eat a **** load and Sleep like a baby and have grown more during this cycle than I though possible


----------



## El Toro Mr UK98

Mingster said:


> Why do they?
> 
> I see a lot of trainers using 4/5/6 day a week routines and ask myself why? Now there will always be exceptions, but in all the years that I have trained the vast majority of the biggest, most muscular, trainers have followed 3 time a week routines. Pscarb trains this way, and has Milky following a similar routine. All of the biggest guys in the gyms I use do the same. In fact the biggest guys tend to follow a one on/two off protocol.
> 
> We all accept that we grow when we rest so why don't people rest more? I sometimes think that it's an addiction to exercise itself that makes people train so often, rather than a genuine attempt to develop bigger muscles. Maybe people equate more work with better results, rather than harder work with better results. I don't know.
> 
> There are a lot of 13/14 stone guys who never seem to get any bigger. Are they brainwashed by the magazines? What do you think?


What seems to work for me depends on weather im on or off gear, if im on a cycle I train 4 times a week One body part once a week but ill do more sets, drop sets and volume and then when im off gear i tend to train the same days and body parts but go from 3 working sets and drop sets to HIT training with one main set on each exercise

Im only 15 stone so no mass monster but i am only 5'5" and 11% body fat so i think I hold good quality muscle, If I do less i tend to look soft and fatter.

Totaly agree with the OP but this way works for me


----------



## ClarkyBoy

El Toro Mr UK98 said:


> What seems to work for me depends on weather im on or off gear, if im on a cycle I train 4 times a week One body part once a week but ill do more sets, drop sets and volume and then when im off gear i tend to train the same days and body parts but go from 3 working sets and drop sets to HIT training with one main set on each exercise
> 
> Im only 15 stone so no mass monster but i am only 5'5" and 11% body fat so i think I hold good quality muscle, If I do less i tend to look soft and fatter.
> 
> Totaly agree with the OP but this way works for me


Agree on the whole on / off cycle as above. When I am cycling it is 4 times per week, more volume, more sets etc. than when off cycle and I tend to migrate to more of a push / pull / legs routine.

I tend to do 8-10 weeks of hard gym work when on cycle then however long I am off I lessen the stress on my body and this seems to work well for me. Now just a cpl of lbs over 16st and at 6ft tall and happy with that. Plus by cycling the training I find any injuries & niggles I get heal a lot better & quicker by doing this.


----------



## Bull Terrier

My gym owner is a moderately successful ex-competition bodybuilder. At his best (back in 1998) he used to compete at a shredded weight of around 81kg at a height of probably around 168cm. He definitely had an impressive physique.

His training ethos is based on a very high volume and high intensity approach, over perhaps 5 days per week. He constantly chides me over my training approach (which is much more akin to what @Mingster recommends) and recommends his approach to anybody who asks him. His rationale is that all other athletes train harder than most bodybuilders and he is convinced that a trainee has to gradually build up to high volume (he doesn't recommend high volume from the outset of training) and intensity.

He normally does around 20-25 total sets per bodypart, even on smaller bodyparts like biceps etc. This, whether on or off-cycle.

For the record, I don't like this approach and I know that it wouldn't work for me. But in the interests of discussion I thought I'd post it.


----------



## TwoCanVanDamn

K1NGCA1N said:


> I train 4-5 times a week if I can for 1 - 1.30 hours, usually just the 4 though. I just love smashing the weights!
> 
> I try and do the push pull legs routine but sometime just mix things up if I feel like it. I am assisted though and been eating like a beast, though starting to get sick of eating so damn much! I recently hit 22 stone at 6'6",I was 19.5 before my course and Im prob carrying about 20% BF, I'm not too ****d about the super ripped look just yet as I just like being huge!, I have just started cutting and on Winny until I start my PCT (Despite some @rsehole nicking my stash from my bag)
> 
> I'm sure it would be a different story If I was a Natty but I eat a **** load and Sleep like a baby and have grown more during this cycle than I though possible


Any photo's of 6'6 and 22 stone? Pretty fvcking big


----------



## Mogy

Mingster said:


> Why do they?
> 
> I see a lot of trainers using 4/5/6 day a week routines and ask myself why? Now there will always be exceptions, but in all the years that I have trained the vast majority of the biggest, most muscular, trainers have followed 3 time a week routines. Pscarb trains this way, and has Milky following a similar routine. All of the biggest guys in the gyms I use do the same. In fact the biggest guys tend to follow a one on/two off protocol.
> 
> We all accept that we grow when we rest so why don't people rest more? I sometimes think that it's an addiction to exercise itself that makes people train so often, rather than a genuine attempt to develop bigger muscles. Maybe people equate more work with better results, rather than harder work with better results. I don't know.
> 
> There are a lot of 13/14 stone guys who never seem to get any bigger. Are they brainwashed by the magazines? What do you think?


I train because I'm fcuking addicted to it & can't get enough!


----------



## K1NGCA1N

TwoCanVanDamn said:


> Any photo's of 6'6 and 22 stone? Pretty fvcking big


 Im a bit camera shy but I'll get some up in the next couple of weeks when I hopefully shed a bit of my bulking belly Im due a new avi anyway


----------



## Ricky12345

Wow a years gone by allready I remember when this thread was made only feels like 4 months back


----------



## Willapp

For me it's about how long you train for each week in total - I'd probably just do 3 sessions a week if I could get in the gym for 1.5-2hrs at a time, but I'm limited to about 45 minutes each lunch break so I train 5 times which is equivalent to 3hrs 45mins a week, not that different to someone who trains 3 times a week for 90 minutes.

I have to make my sessions high intensity and do a lot of super-sets, and i suppose I'm at higher risk of injury as I sometimes have to rush through a quick warmup and cool down, but it works for me. I tend to split the 5 sessions into body parts and just arrange them so I don't do things like chest and shoulders on consecutive days. Currently my routine is like:

Monday: Shoulders

Tuesday: Legs

Wednesday: Chest

Thursday: Back

Friday: Arms/legs

It's not perfect but I manage to make it work and it fits in with my work schedule and means I get all my training done during the day so it doesn't take up any evenings or weekends (though I swim regularly and also do a bit of cycling and running at the weekends if I'm trying to tone up).


----------



## Nicgianni1

Training for me is a great outlet to let off the steam from the day. I work out 5-6 days a week. It is better than being drinking for sure.

I also have a lot of good friends that I hang out with afterwards. It is something I look forward to doing.


----------



## ConP

Both approaches work for me.

IME the biggest guys train close to every day.

Talking about big boys/pros not forum rats.

I do know in the UK lower volume is more popular and I am talking about American guys/gyms with my statement.


----------



## 36-26

ConP said:


> Both approaches work for me.
> 
> IME the biggest guys train close to every day.
> 
> Talking about big boys/pros not forum rats.
> 
> I do know in the UK lower volume is more popular and I am talking about American guys/gyms with my statement.


Dorian Yates reckoned American bodybuilders trained a lot but they didn't train very hard at all, would you agree with this or not?


----------



## ConP

36-26 said:


> Dorian Yates reckoned American bodybuilders trained a lot but they didn't train very hard at all, would you agree with this or not?


I would not agree no.


----------



## Kaskadian

To be honest mate, I go about 5-6x a week. I'll blame this on cutting right now, but in reality I know if I didn't have the gym I'd be on anti-depressants. Going to the gym makes me happy. This is coming from an ex-fat kid though.


----------



## BLUE(UK)

TwoCanVanDamn said:


> Any photo's of 6'6 and 22 stone? Pretty fvcking big


A guy I worked on the doors with was about the same weight and damned lean, I remember giving him an arm wrestle once but couldn't shift his arm which made my arm look like a 12yr olds. :death:

....I am 6' 2 and was about 17st at the time.(natty scum).


----------



## 36-26

U


----------



## Kennyken

3 days push pull legs is enough for me.

I look forward to my off days. I actually want to go to bed after my training because im so fcuked ? is this Normal ?


----------



## Spangle1187

I train 5 or 6 times per week and personally I like this but I have roughly the mass I want for my lifestyle and sports. I still want improvements in certain areas but I don't want any more big jumps on the scales anymore its about about lifestyle and enjoyment. If I have had a really busy week and trained hard then I take an extra days rest and I sit on a laptop all day so no strenuous job. I do think its a very personal thing in terms of growth and recovery but I do think that for the majority of people grow best (bulk) when training 3/4 times a week no more. This is only based on what I have seen so no numbers or stats.


----------



## Spangle1187

Kennyken said:


> 3 days push pull legs is enough for me.
> 
> I look forward to my off days. I actually want to go to bed after my training because im so fcuked ? is this Normal ?


If your following a push, pull, legs and trying to add size then IMO this is what should happen (as long as it does not come from not eating and resting enough)


----------



## Kickboxer.Stu

I'm trying to go as much as possible at the min, aiming for 4/5 times a week and normally hit 3/4. Just gives me a bit of flex if I can't make it for some reason .


----------



## mrwright

I go 5 days a week gives me a day do each muscle group with 2 days off for other ****e

I have the luxary of not doing a whole lot in the rest of the day even when im at work i work 5-am - 11am home food an straight gym finished by say 1pm then i have all day and night to rest

Anything more and id feel like shiit

Im always better when im done in like playing football first half ill be terrible an knackered come 2nd half when im fuucked an blowin out my ass im twice as good and just go none stop

Its the same with the gym too much rest.


----------



## NoGutsNoGloryy

Cause we're gonna get fooking massive


----------



## Boshlop

cant do a push session in one go due to a injury kicking in after a few effective compounds, and with other sporting commitments when i have tried to do push in one go i end up been exhausted and risking myself more, so instead of 30-45 min of push its spread into two 25 min sessions for safety, it works for me and my shoulder is getting better so i wouldn't change it


----------



## Old n fat

Interesting thread this !

I was in the 6 days a week 2 hours a session weights only group!

I, it seems wrongly believed to hit all the muscle groups in as many ways as possible , and to do that take a huge amount of time !

An example would be fore arms . 4 types of exercise all 3x10 then one to failure to finish. A lot of reps per exercise !!

Down side is I end up living at the gym hogging equipment and getting injury.

Using the above example how would suggest I tone that down ?

3x8 heavy as **** hit the muscle once , hit it really hard ??

Really would welcome this sort of advice !!

Put up a post but no replies yet one in "getting started" on everything I know I did wrong , now looking for advice


----------



## DanishM

I don't have this problem. I don't even train. :wink:


----------



## IronJohnDoe

OP Everyone has different targets, not all of us wanna be mr olympia size..

I like to train often and by eating a lot I grow as well.

But if my body ask me for a extra day of rest I don't deny it.


----------



## Mingster

IronJohnDoe said:


> OP Everyone has different targets, not all of us wanna be mr olympia size..
> 
> I like to train often and by eating a lot I grow as well.
> 
> But if my body ask me for a extra day of rest I don't deny it.


That is why there are different threads for different goals. This thread was clearly intended for those who wish to achieve size

And also to get people to think about and question their training methods, motivations, and philosophies.


----------



## IronJohnDoe

Mingster said:


> That is why there are different threads for different goals. This thread was clearly intended for those who wish to achieve size
> 
> And also to get people to think about and question their training methods, motivations, and philosophies.


I am trying to achieve size (just not that much as a competitor) I already achieved an extra 2kg of lean muscle in the last period (yes even by training 5-6 a week)

What I am trying to say its everyone is different and our body respond to training in different ways, mine it's fine with training very often


----------



## Mingster

IronJohnDoe said:


> I am trying to achieve size (just not that much as a competitor) I already achieved an extra 2kg of lean muscle in the last period (yes even by training 5-6 a week)
> 
> What I am trying to say its everyone is different and our body respond to training in different ways, mine it's fine with training very often


Yes they do. No doubt about it. But isn't it interesting that the only big guy to post in this thread who advocated 5/6 days a week training retracted this view after he switched to 3 times a week and his gains exploded?


----------



## IronJohnDoe

Mingster said:


> Yes they do. No doubt about it. But isn't it interesting that the only big guy to post in this thread who advocated 5/6 days a week training retracted this view after he switched to 3 times a week and his gains exploded?


It is, I have to say I have a massive friends who does just 3 a week

Guess when you lift certain weights you need more rest, also I believe in what you say, more rest more gains, more intense when you train, it's just that I like to train a lot, but I will surely give a try to the 1 in 2 off at some point


----------



## essexboy

Mingster said:


> Yes they do. No doubt about it. But isn't it interesting that the only big guy to post in this thread who advocated 5/6 days a week training retracted this view after he switched to 3 times a week and his gains exploded?


Because the human mind equates "more is better".There are a million metaphors that we can use as examples.However, it seems to make no difference.Despite real evidence citing that intensity, not duration and infrequency, will optimise progress.Most are unwilling to change.

"I went to the Doctor.He told me to take one pill a day.Im taking 10 so Ill get better 10 times quicker right?"


----------



## 36-26

IronJohnDoe said:


> I am trying to achieve size (just not that much as a competitor) I already achieved an extra 2kg of lean muscle in the last period (yes even by training 5-6 a week)
> 
> What I am trying to say its everyone is different and our body respond to training in different ways, mine it's fine with training very often


Do you not think though that to get to the size you want, the quickest way is to train less but harder? Then when you get there to maintain that size, train as often as you want. I don't know anyone who doesn't want to achieve their goal physique as quickly as possible.


----------



## B.I.G

I think a lot comes down to rest/repair time.

If you do a hard manual job, chances are you are not getting enough rest to train 5 times a week.

I've always trained 5 times a week but I work from home on my ar$e where I probably use the minimum energy and do some hours on the door at the weekend.


----------



## polishmate

because i have the time now and i know it won't stay like that for long. also i hate cardio and need to burn as much calories as possible while in the gym so might as well lift weights lol


----------



## ki3rz

Just read pretty much the whole thread. Interesting.

I'm using and upper/lower x2 a week. Have been tempted to switch to a PPL mind.


----------



## Southern Karate Guy

I train all week and rest on a wednesday, but i dont do real long sessions as my health isnt too great and i tire quickly. its working for me as my lifts are increasing but it wouldnt suit most people i guess.


----------



## IronJohnDoe

36-26 said:


> Do you not think though that to get to the size you want, the quickest way is to train less but harder? Then when you get there to maintain that size, train as often as you want. I don't know anyone who doesn't want to achieve their goal physique as quickly as possible.


Then I may be the first one, I am almost there mate so I am not really in rush, I am progressing this is the important to me.


----------



## Sway12

How can 3x a week be optimal? If I were to squat again on the same week my legs still wouldnt have recovered since I smashed them a few days previously.

Also I've heard from too many people that routines like SS / SL do NOT stimulate growth effectively. There is far more anecdotal evidence out there to suggest that body part splits are more effective for hypertrophy.

If 3 days a week is all thats needed please tell me why fitness models (using them as an example because they have amazing physiques) DON'T use full body training?

Go on simplyshredded, read any of the interviews with the dudes or girls on there and not a single one will be using full body. Why would this be the case? If full body training or 3x a week was sufficient they would use it of course, drugs or no drugs....


----------



## Mingster

Sway12 said:


> How can 3x a week be optimal? If I were to squat again on the same week my legs still wouldnt have recovered since I smashed them a few days previously.
> 
> Also I've heard from too many people that routines like SS / SL do NOT stimulate growth effectively. There is far more anecdotal evidence out there to suggest that body part splits are more effective for hypertrophy.
> 
> If 3 days a week is all thats needed please tell me why fitness models (using them as an example because they have amazing physiques) DON'T use full body training?
> 
> Go on simplyshredded, read any of the interviews with the dudes or girls on there and not a single one will be using full body. Why would this be the case? If full body training or 3x a week was sufficient they would use it of course, drugs or no drugs....


Not many fitness models 250lbs + at 6 feet tall or less:confused1:

Have you read the thread?


----------



## lm73

3 times a week for me ppl

I was training to heavy the first 2 weeks and a guy in the gym pointed this out

and said its all down to technique

He showed me what I was doing wrong really helped me out alot

Ive stuck to 3 days a week and gone from 73kg in weight to 76.4kg in 9 weeks

so yeah I believe 3days is enough


----------



## Sway12

Mingster said:


> Not many fitness models 250lbs + at 6 feet tall or less:confused1:
> 
> Have you read the thread?


Sorry mate im not following.

My point was that if training 3x a week is sufficient then why don't most competitive body builders and others with shredded physiques use them?


----------



## Mingster

Sway12 said:


> Sorry mate im not following.
> 
> My point was that if training 3x a week is sufficient then why don't most competitive body builders and others with shredded physiques use them?


They do, generally, until they achieve the size they seek, then change their training to complete their physiques.

Most of the routines they endorse are designed to sell their sponsors supplements too:whistling:


----------



## Sway12

Mingster said:


> They do, generally, until they achieve the size they seek, then change their training to complete their physiques.
> 
> Most of the routines they endorse are designed to sell their sponsors supplements too:whistling:


il bow to your greater wisdom, if that is you in your avi then you clearly know what your doing, but i just find it odd that bodybuilding style routines with assistance work seem to be seen as the devil these days.. I've only just started a split and I keep hearing conflicting views. Mehdi from stronglifts advocates 5x5 but then he doesnt even look like he lifts tbh.


----------



## Sway12

I do it for the same reasons as others and always want to get back in, except my other motivation is getting a nice body and escaping skinny fat forever.. I'm not sure whether full body training is best for aesthetic related goals. Would you agree? if you're motivation had been size would you have trained the same way


----------



## 36-26

Sway12 said:


> I do it for the same reasons as others and always want to get back in, except my other motivation is getting a nice body and escaping skinny fat forever.. I'm not sure whether full body training is best for aesthetic related goals. Would you agree? if you're motivation had been size would you have trained the same way


Mate where are you getting the idea that people are talking about full body routines, for the most part they are not. Mingster recommends a Push Pull Legs system 3 days a week.


----------



## Sway12

36-26 said:


> Mate where are you getting the idea that people are talking about full body routines, for the most part they are not. Mingster recommends a Push Pull Legs system 3 days a week.


I thought that full body was what he recommended, my mistake. I want to do 3 days a week but I just find that I need more volume.. I'm on a split right now and I find that I actually stimulate the muscle much more and I am very sore post-workout, as opposed to my last 3x a week routine where there was only 1 exercise for shoulders for example. It just doesn't feel like I have effectively targeted them..

I guess I'm just still so confused as to what routine to run since everybody has wildly different opinions on what is effective. Can anyone say out-right that p/p/l 3x a week is a good routine which will create size + strength in a reasonable time frame if diet is in check? I just want to stick to something fully but keep jumping between routines...


----------



## DiggyV

@Mingster I am with you on this one mate, I normally run 3 days a week, very occasionally I will run 4, but this is very much the exception, and last week was the first time in months I have done this. I don't run P/P/L though, I run a 4 day split, rotated over 3 days a week, so basically train everybody part three times every 4 weeks.

It looks like this:

Week1 Monday: Chest

Week 1 Wednesday: Back

Week 1 Friday: Shoulders (and occasionally arms or core)

Week 2 Monday: Legs

Week 2 Wednesday: Chest

Week 2 Friday: Back

Week 3 Monday: Shoulders as above

Week 3 Wednesday: Legs

Week 3 Friday: Chest

Week 4 Monday: Back

Week 4 Wednesday: Shoulders as above

Week 4 Friday: Legs

I like this approach as each week you start and end with a different muscle group in the 4 week cycle.

I have also run a 5 way split run over 4 days a week in the past, so every body part 4 times in 5 weeks. Still gives plenty of rest, and strength and size gains on a par with the above.

Have read an article by @dtlv which was talking about maximising gains, and that lower training day counts benefits assisted muscle growth, whereas a natty lifter will need to train more. Think I got that the right way around - hopefully he may well chime in


----------



## harryalmighty

DiggyV said:


> @Mingster I am with you on this one mate, I normally run 3 days a week, very occasionally I will run 4, but this is very much the exception, and last week was the first time in months I have done this. I don't run P/P/L though, I run a 4 day split, rotated over 3 days a week, so basically train everybody part three times every 4 weeks.
> 
> It looks like this:
> 
> Week1 Monday: Chest
> 
> Week 1 Wednesday: Back
> 
> Week 1 Friday: Shoulders (and occasionally arms or core)
> 
> Week 2 Monday: Legs
> 
> Week 2 Wednesday: Chest
> 
> Week 2 Friday: Back
> 
> Week 3 Monday: Shoulders as above
> 
> Week 3 Wednesday: Legs
> 
> Week 3 Friday: Chest
> 
> Week 4 Monday: Back
> 
> Week 4 Wednesday: Shoulders as above
> 
> Week 4 Friday: Legs
> 
> I like this approach as each week you start and end with a different muscle group in the 4 week cycle.
> 
> I have also run a 5 way split run over 4 days a week in the past, so every body part 4 times in 5 weeks. Still gives plenty of rest, and strength and size gains on a par with the above.
> 
> Have read an article by @dtlv which was talking about maximising gains, *and that lower training day counts benefits assisted muscle growth, whereas a natty lifter will need to train more*. Think I got that the right way around - hopefully he may well chime in


think this is where alot of people are getting confused.

ive been natty my whole time lifting and have experienced my best gains over the last year following a U/L program:

monday: upper body power workout

tuesday: squat w/ squat assistance exercises

wednesday: OFF

thursday: upper body hypertrophy

friday: deadlift w/ grip and posterior chain work.

saturday:OFF

sunday: OFF


----------



## GGLynch89

5 days a week beacuse when I am not training I am sitting around thinking about traning.

I also get very stressed and annoyed if something unexpected gets in the way of me training. I guess its an addiction.


----------



## danefox

Mingster said:


> Good reasons but not really logical or based on science tbh. As I said, there are exceptions. Big Bear and Dave are naturally large people who would be massive even if they had never picked up a weight so, with respect, what they do does not apply to us average sized guys. I work with some big lads. 6 feet tall and 18 stone plus and none of them train more than 3 times a week. IMO if you train hard enough more sessions simply aren't possible...


From your AVI, I would say you are far from the average size guy. As far as weight, I might be average at 15st, but my size is below average imo.


----------



## DiggyV

danefox said:


> From your AVI, I would say you are far from the average size guy. As far as weight, I might be average at 15st, but my size is below average imo.


I'd agree mate - Ming is a bit of a monster :tongue:

I'd say I was average sized or a little above average for someone that lifts based on most of the gyms I train at, and def above average on some body parts (legs - 28", calves - 19", arms - 18.5", all of which historically I trained least TBH) - however very much below average when I train at Muscleworks in London :lol: so average I think depends on the company you keep and where you train.

However weight wise am a full stone lighter than you at a height of 5' 10", and feel positively malnourished if 15st is average :lol:


----------



## Mingster

danefox said:


> From your AVI, I would say you are far from the average size guy. As far as weight, I might be average at 15st, but my size is below average imo.


I was talking about being average size before starting lifting. I was 5' 11 and 170lbs before I set foot in a gym. Pretty much average I would say Dave is 6' 5 tall and Big Bear was probably about 6' 5 wide before he started working on his width


----------



## Smitch

Sway12 said:


> I thought that full body was what he recommended, my mistake. I want to do 3 days a week but I just find that I need more volume.. I'm on a split right now and I find that I actually stimulate the muscle much more and I am very sore post-workout, as opposed to my last 3x a week routine where there was only 1 exercise for shoulders for example. It just doesn't feel like I have effectively targeted them..
> 
> I guess I'm just still so confused as to what routine to run since everybody has wildly different opinions on what is effective. Can anyone say out-right that p/p/l 3x a week is a good routine which will create size + strength in a reasonable time frame if diet is in check? I just want to stick to something fully but keep jumping between routines...


I like 3 days a week as i can do everything i need in those 3 workouts so why would i go more?

I used to go 5 days a week and was not as big or strong as i am now, but they only way for you to know what suits you PERSONALLY is to try a few different routines and see what you prefer, you might have a nagging wife and like to get out of the house 7 days a week.


----------



## TAFFY

havent read all posts i aim for 4 sessions a week but i listen to my body how i feel if busy wk like last wk only trained 3 times your body, but i think lot how much you do in gym see some doing 4-6 diff exercises on each body part way to much 3 on bigger muscle groups 2 on smaller enough for me!!


----------



## johnnymctrance

Mingster said:


> Why do they?
> 
> I see a lot of trainers using 4/5/6 day a week routines and ask myself why? Now there will always be exceptions, but in all the years that I have trained the vast majority of the biggest, most muscular, trainers have followed 3 time a week routines. Pscarb trains this way, and has Milky following a similar routine. All of the biggest guys in the gyms I use do the same. In fact the biggest guys tend to follow a one on/two off protocol.
> 
> We all accept that we grow when we rest so why don't people rest more? I sometimes think that it's an addiction to exercise itself that makes people train so often, rather than a genuine attempt to develop bigger muscles. Maybe people equate more work with better results, rather than harder work with better results. I don't know.
> 
> There are a lot of 13/14 stone guys who never seem to get any bigger. Are they brainwashed by the magazines? What do you think?


I completley agree, i only train 3 times a week and im making better progress than when i stupidly used to train 5 days per week!


----------



## dtlv

DiggyV said:


> Have read an article by @dtlv which was talking about maximising gains, and that lower training day counts benefits assisted muscle growth, whereas a natty lifter will need to train more. Think I got that the right way around - hopefully he may well chime in


hey bud, have not caught up with the last twenty pages of the thread, but yeah... I think personally if assisted you can gain well absolutely annihilating a muscle directly once only every 7-10 days as the hormonal difference and all it leads to quite likely allows for a longer period of elevated muscle protein FSR as well as a higher one - not only does the amount of protein that can be added to a muscle after a workout increase but the period for which it can grow might also be longer, thus justifying a more intense session that blasts the fcuk out of ligaments and tendons and allows for enough time for them to recover before slaughtering the muscle again.

For a natty though the time period where a muscle can grow post workout is about 48 hours in a novice and only about 30 hours in someone who has been lifting more than just a few months... so spacing same body part workouts a lot further apart than this may well be missing on some opportunity. I do think though that once lifting a while and the loads used get higher, a little more rest than this is of benefit - the muscles themselves may be ready to go again 30 hours pwo, but connective tissues may not, and the CNS itself may not like such a high frequency. In respect of the CNS and recovery, I read a paper suggesting that for the CNS to to adapt to maximal (failure) loading takes at least 72 hours... submaximal training probably still less even with relatively heavy loads, but if maximal then maybe prudent to spread out a little bit.

Personally I consider my own best frequency every 4 or 5 days as an average (different for different muscles, but 4-5 days the best compromise for everything to keep things simple) - for me I either do upper/lower one on/one off with A/B workouts alternated for each, or a bro-split of two on/one off/one on/one off if I fancy a little more volume. I probably enjoy the bro-split more (more room to add the odd fun exercise here and there and to experiment with them), but find the upper/lower the most efficiently effective.


----------



## Trevor McDonald




----------



## Sway12

I actually went back and looked through the whole thread and its really interesting, good points being put forward by all sides.

However..

I don't understand why the majority of people say that splits are harder to recover from for a natural trainee. I am currently on a 5 day split. This morning I did Back and biceps, yesterday I did Chest and triceps. I feel absolutely fine and will be good to go on legs tommorow since I havent trained them since last week.

When I was doing full body I struggled to recover once my lifts started going up to a moderate weight. Perhaps I was doing it all wrong.

It makes perfect sense to me that the body needs adequate time to recover, but I am not 100% convinced I should abandon my split - let me put it this way:

*1. I never felt a pump on a compound lift, ever. *

*
2. I never felt that a particular body part, whether it was chest or legs, was hit enough with either a barbell bench press or squats, it was only on a split with high volume that I REALLY felt my quads get hammered to the extent that I could barely walk. I know some will say that doesnt mean growth will take place, but come on, if my quads arent even sore after squats then something must be wrong with that picture. Bearing in mind my form is certaintly better than most regular gym goers who don't even squat. *

*
3. On heavy compound lifts my nervous system gives up before my muscles do. I'm feeling tired OVERALL but NOT specifically in the muscles im training.. WHEREAS during a split I can really feel that muscle working specifically to failure and I know 100% that it has reached it's capacity, theres nothing else I can do..*

*
WHEREAS on heavy compound lifts I am left feeling that I need to do more! *

Can someone address these questions please? I just want to do whatever is effective


----------



## Sionnach

after taking a full year off training for study, i have now put more muscle on then i had just before i stopped. It was actually the best decision i ever made.


----------



## Mingster

Sway12 said:


> I actually went back and looked through the whole thread and its really interesting, good points being put forward by all sides.
> 
> However..
> 
> I don't understand why the majority of people say that splits are harder to recover from for a natural trainee. I am currently on a 5 day split. This morning I did Back and biceps, yesterday I did Chest and triceps. I feel absolutely fine and will be good to go on legs tommorow since I havent trained them since last week.
> 
> When I was doing full body I struggled to recover once my lifts started going up to a moderate weight. Perhaps I was doing it all wrong.
> 
> It makes perfect sense to me that the body needs adequate time to recover, but I am not 100% convinced I should abandon my split - let me put it this way:
> 
> *1. I never felt a pump on a compound lift, ever. *
> 
> *
> 2. I never felt that a particular body part, whether it was chest or legs, was hit enough with either a barbell bench press or squats, it was only on a split with high volume that I REALLY felt my quads get hammered to the extent that I could barely walk. I know some will say that doesnt mean growth will take place, but come on, if my quads arent even sore after squats then something must be wrong with that picture. Bearing in mind my form is certaintly better than most regular gym goers who don't even squat. *
> 
> *
> 3. On heavy compound lifts my nervous system gives up before my muscles do. I'm feeling tired OVERALL but NOT specifically in the muscles im training.. WHEREAS during a split I can really feel that muscle working specifically to failure and I know 100% that it has reached it's capacity, theres nothing else I can do..*
> 
> *
> WHEREAS on heavy compound lifts I am left feeling that I need to do more! *
> 
> Can someone address these questions please? I just want to do whatever is effective


Bear in mind this thread is about aiming for around the 250lbs mark at an average height...This doesn't necessarily mean ripped to the bone muscular. I am not, nor have ever been, a bodybuilder

1) I don't think the pump means anything tbh. I never get a pump from compounds, but I've added 100lbs to my physique over the years, although a little lighter now.

2) I don't believe you need to 'hammer' your muscles to force growth. You may well build muscle tissue from time under tension and so forth, but you will also build it from progressive overload and this is much easier to plan for, achieve, and recover from.

3) I rarely train to failure. 4 or 5 times a year most likely. Most of my training is in the 80% to 90% range. There is no need to train to 100% capacity to grow. If you feel that you need to do more on the compounds you are probably - maybe subconsciously - training within yourself. 3 sets of 5 reps in the range mentioned should leave you pretty knackered. And then you'll have to beat it the next time out. And the next. Before dropping to you new 80% and beginning the process again.

Just my opinion. Others may disagree


----------



## 3752

i have just read a few of the many pages.....

i have trained 3 days a week since 2010 and have never trained and progressed better....

one point though when i read some say about there training i have seen many people train and very few train with such intensity to be able to say they train hard.....

i put this on my FB page the other week and it is a question i ask everyone i coach when i first start working with them....

"can you honestly say that you have progressed as you wished to in the last 12 months" natural or not u should be able to answer this with a Yes but many cannot or they answer with a long list of excuses......

there is one thing i have learnt over the years and that is if you do not lay it against the wall for every minute you are in the gym then you will not progress as you should........


----------



## Kazza61

Mingster said:


> Bear in mind this thread is about aiming for around the 250lbs mark at an average height...This doesn't necessarily mean ripped to the bone muscular. I am not, nor have ever been, a bodybuilder
> 
> 1) I don't think the pump means anything tbh. I never get a pump from compounds, but I've added 100lbs to my physique over the years, although a little lighter now.
> 
> 2) I don't believe you need to 'hammer' your muscles to force growth. You may well build muscle tissue from time under tension and so forth, but you will also build it from progressive overload and this is much easier to plan for, achieve, and recover from.
> 
> 3) I rarely train to failure. 4 or 5 times a year most likely. Most of my training is in the 80% to 90% range. There is no need to train to 100% capacity to grow. If you feel that you need to do more on the compounds you are probably - maybe subconsciously - training within yourself. 3 sets of 5 reps in the range mentioned should leave you pretty knackered. And then you'll have to beat it the next time out. And the next. Before dropping to you new 80% and beginning the process again.
> 
> Just my opinion. Others may disagree


And some may totally agree 100% and then some! Excellent post there. At 52 I started training my compounds on a 3 x 5 (after warm ups) 6 months ago and unbelievably I'm still adding weight nearly every single week until now! Just about the most productive thing I have ever done!


----------



## Sway12

Lol Mingster I just saw your routine. 5 sets of heavy deadlifts? Think I'd die. Good points though.


----------



## Slater8486

I train 4 times a week and it has worked for me, I used to be daft and train like 6 days a week and only have one rest day. Now I just spilt it chest/back/shoulders/legs I do go gym 9 times a week but the other 5 days is morning cardio cutting ready for summer.


----------



## Sway12

Mingster said:


> Bear in mind this thread is about aiming for around the 250lbs mark at an average height...This doesn't necessarily mean ripped to the bone muscular. I am not, nor have ever been, a bodybuilder


Are you 250 lbs? If you cut you would surely look amazing and like a bodybuilder with that amount of mass.



Mingster said:


> 1) I don't think the pump means anything tbh. I never get a pump from compounds, but I've added 100lbs to my physique over the years, although a little lighter now.


Over how many years did you add 100 lbs? I dunno if there is any science to the pump, but I get a strong mind muscle connection with what I'm trying to work on a high volume routine. If I'm going to hit something only once a week, then surely I want to smash it properly in order to make the most out of that particular training session. Makes sense no? On the other hand I feel a big hormonal response after hitting squats and deads, thats for sure... I don't get that with a split, just the pump, its a very different feeling.

Your p/p/l is super low volume on the other hand but I would like to get stronger on the compound lifts.



Mingster said:


> 2) I don't believe you need to 'hammer' your muscles to force growth. You may well build muscle tissue from time under tension and so forth, but you will also build it from progressive overload and this is much easier to plan for, achieve, and recover from.


I mean, this is why I made a thread recently about guys who can lift heavy but dont look decent, they dont have decent physiques by an objective standard, you wouldnt even know they lift weights, so what stopped you falling into that trap? The worse feeling I can imagine would be getting to the stage where I can squat 3 plates but still don't look like I work out, remember I'm training mainly to look good, since im a vein ****er. Would you recommend the same routine to a young guy trying to get bigger?



Mingster said:


> 3) I rarely train to failure. 4 or 5 times a year most likely. Most of my training is in the 80% to 90% range. There is no need to train to 100% capacity to grow. If you feel that you need to do more on the compounds you are probably - maybe subconsciously - training within yourself. 3 sets of 5 reps in the range mentioned should leave you pretty knackered. And then you'll have to beat it the next time out. And the next. Before dropping to you new 80% and beginning the process again.


3 sets of 5? That's not hypertrophy range, and still 10 reps less than 5x5, so how can that be effective? I'm not trying to bait you or anything, I just constantly hear people saying completely opposite things and as a newbie i dont know who to listen to, I certainly dont reference IFBB pro's as anyone worth learning from however like many out there. I just want the opinion from the man on the street who has got the most out of the gym and built a strong big physique.


----------



## Mclovin147

In full swing I train 4, sometimes 5 times a week.

Each muscle group once a week, 2 muscle groups per day I.e. Chest & Tri on a Monday, Shoulders & Bi Tuesday, Legs on Wednesday, Thursday off, Friday back.

I usually repeat one of choice (Alternate) on the weekend.

I often feel I could/should do more, like try and hit every muscle group twice a week, but that's some serious gym time then. I do 4 sets of 7, usually to failure in the last set.


----------



## Mingster

Sway12 said:


> Are you 250 lbs? If you cut you would surely look amazing and like a bodybuilder with that amount of mass.
> 
> *I was 247lbs at last weigh in but I'm on a cut*
> 
> Over how many years did you add 100 lbs? I dunno if there is any science to the pump, but I get a strong mind muscle connection with what I'm trying to work on a high volume routine. If I'm going to hit something only once a week, then surely I want to smash it properly in order to make the most out of that particular training session. Makes sense no? On the other hand I feel a big hormonal response after hitting squats and deads, thats for sure... I don't get that with a split, just the pump, its a very different feeling.
> 
> Your p/p/l is super low volume on the other hand but I would like to get stronger on the compound lifts.
> 
> *I've been training 30 years. I started at 170lbs and hit 270lbs in my thirties. I was 260lbs last year but have deliberately dropped a bit of weight this year.*
> 
> I mean, this is why I made a thread recently about guys who can lift heavy but dont look decent, they dont have decent physiques by an objective standard, you wouldnt even know they lift weights, so what stopped you falling into that trap? The worse feeling I can imagine would be getting to the stage where I can squat 3 plates but still don't look like I work out, remember I'm training mainly to look good, since im a vein ****er. Would you recommend the same routine to a young guy trying to get bigger?
> 
> *I use a range of rep ranges in my workouts.*
> 
> 3 sets of 5? That's not hypertrophy range, and still 10 reps less than 5x5, so how can that be effective? I'm not trying to bait you or anything, I just constantly hear people saying completely opposite things and as a newbie i dont know who to listen to, I certainly dont reference IFBB pro's as anyone worth learning from however like many out there. I just want the opinion from the man on the street who has got the most out of the gym and built a strong big physique.
> 
> *3 sets of 5 was an example. I do multiple sets for bench/squat/deadlift depending on the workout, increasing the weight each set but never exceeding 5 reps. With squats I sometimes add in a lighter 10 rep set after the heaviest set of the day. For my first accessory exercise I may do 3 sets of 8-12 reps. For my second accessory I'd probably do 2/3 sets of 12-20 reps, or maybe a drop set or similar. Thus I will train the main lift for strength, and the support work is probably responsible for muscular development. Although I firmly believe that you can gain muscle size from lower reps. At the very least the strength you gain from the low reps enables you to lift heavier weights for the higher reps. This is very hard work and is taxing on the body hence, imo, the need for low volume, 3 times a week training, to facilitate recovery *


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## ConP

Here is a hypothetical question....

Lets say I offered you 1 million pounds if you could gain 10lb of muscle in 6 weeks.

No drugs only food allowed.

You didn't have to do any thing else besides rest and train for that amount of time.

How many times per week would you train and how many times per week would you train each body part?

Can you honestly say the answer would be 3 times per week and once?


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## Mingster

ConP said:


> Here is a hypothetical question....
> 
> Lets say I offered you 1 million pounds if you could gain 10lb of muscle in 6 weeks.
> 
> No drugs only food allowed.
> 
> You didn't have to do any thing else besides rest and train for that amount of time.
> 
> How many times per week would you train and how many times per week would you train each body part?
> 
> Can you honestly say the answer would be 3 times per week and once?


I wouldn't take the bet for a number of reasons

I wouldn't want to add 10lbs of muscle.

I can't train the way I train more often than 3 times a week without my progress stalling. I've been training a long, long time and have tried many different training protocols and 3 times a week training is massively the most productive for me.

I don't think 10lbs of muscle is a realistic target tbh. Yes, you could possibly do it if the right set of circumstances presented itself, but it wouldn't be a training approach you could keep up for any great length of time. That being the case, you may as well train like that twice a year and gain 20lbs and just potter on for the other 40 weeks.

It's a question you would ask of a bodybuilder, rather than someone who wishes to be big and strong without the need to be overly ripped and proportional, which wasn't the target audience the thread was intended for...

But I understand what you are saying...  Short term, and for specific goals, the suggestion has merit. I just don't think that, for most, trying to add so much muscle so quickly is a sustainable way of getting to 250lbs.


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## 36-26

One thing this thread did was make me think, for the last few years I have been training using 4 and 5 even 6 day splits, I have not made anywhere near the progress I made in my previous few years training which was a 3 day week ppl system.

I do work a manual job though so clearly recovery is not going to be as good as someone working in an office or similar.

I am going back to 3 days a week for the foreseeable future as when I think about it, it clearly worked better for me


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## Mingster

The thread was never intended to push my own training philosophies onto anyone else, nor to state that one way is right or another wrong. The intention was to get people to think about what they are doing and why they do it, to spark discussion, and to maybe introduce people to other ways of training that exist but are rarely mentioned in the magazines.

If a person goes to the gym for the crack with his mates, who is to say that reason is any less valid than that of someone who trains to be a champion?

Unless he's hogging my squat rack of course


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## Sway12

Well what would your answer be? Lol



ConP said:


> Here is a hypothetical question....
> 
> Lets say I offered you 1 million pounds if you could gain 10lb of muscle in 6 weeks.
> 
> No drugs only food allowed.
> 
> You didn't have to do any thing else besides rest and train for that amount of time.
> 
> How many times per week would you train and how many times per week would you train each body part?
> 
> Can you honestly say the answer would be 3 times per week and once?


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## SickCurrent

I've used to do 3 or 4 days splits but my time is currently more flexible in terms of never missing a meal or quality sleep and I right now I train 6 days a week, one bodypart per day, intense as fcuk. I find it easier to stay lean with this split tbh....

sickc


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## bail

ConP said:


> Here is a hypothetical question....
> 
> Lets say I offered you 1 million pounds if you could gain 10lb of muscle in 6 weeks.
> 
> No drugs only food allowed.
> 
> You didn't have to do any thing else besides rest and train for that amount of time.
> 
> How many times per week would you train and how many times per week would you train each body part?
> 
> Can you honestly say the answer would be 3 times per week and once?


Very good point,

Also i do appreciate that their are people out their that are huge that train 3 x a week

But pretty sure to say all the current best ifbb pros (I'm aware dexter Jackson used a 3 day split in 2006) , intact prob all strength/contact sport athletes

Train more than 3 x a week


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## ConP

bail said:


> Very good point,
> 
> Also i do appreciate that their are people out their that are huge that train 3 x a week
> 
> But pretty sure to say all the current best ifbb pros (I'm aware dexter Jackson used a 3 day split in 2006) , intact prob all strength/contact sport athletes
> 
> Train more than 3 x a week


How many huge naturals (don't say that's an oxymoron haha) only train 3 days per week...

Biggest natural dudes I know train balls to the wall 5-6 days a week.

Which means how much does steroid use mask the need to train more?


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## Mingster

bail said:


> Very good point,
> 
> Also i do appreciate that their are people out their that are huge that train 3 x a week
> 
> But pretty sure to say all the current best ifbb pros (I'm aware dexter Jackson used a 3 day split in 2006) , intact prob all strength/contact sport athletes
> 
> Train more than 3 x a week


Doubtless that this is so. But the vast majority of people can't compare themselves to IFBB pro's surely? A tiny percentage of people can achieve this look and size regardless of training. And, even so, I bet a lot of them built their initial size with abbreviated programmes.

The athletes you mention do train with greater frequency but this incoporates a lot of skill and fitness work. Not weight lifting.


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## Mingster

ConP said:


> How many huge naturals (don't say that's an oxymoron haha) only train 3 days per week...
> 
> Biggest natural dudes I know train balls to the wall 5-6 days a week.
> 
> Which means how much does steroid use mask the need to train more?


Good point. Not many I'll warrant.

Although I got to 230lbs natty, I doubt I could have made 250.


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## bail

Mingster said:


> Doubtless that this is so. But the vast majority of people can't compare themselves to IFBB pro's surely? A tiny percentage of people can achieve this look and size regardless of training. And, even so, I bet a lot of them built their initial size with abbreviated programmes.
> 
> The athletes you mention do train with greater frequency but this incoporates a lot of skill and fitness work. Not weight lifting.


Also meant powerlifters etc (aware a degree of fitness is required)

Very true a ifbb do have a level of genetics that a lot of us don't

I am a believer in low vol training but tbh since being up the vol personally i can see a difference

And that's with a very physical job and low carbs

Mainly just around training

However a down period of low vol low freq

Would be very nice soon lol


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## Mingster

bail said:


> Also meant powerlifters etc (aware a degree of fitness is required)
> 
> Very true a ifbb do have a level of genetics that a lot of us don't
> 
> I am a believer in low vol training but tbh since being up the vol personally i can see a difference
> 
> And that's with a very physical job and low carbs
> 
> Mainly just around training
> 
> However a down period of low vol low freq
> 
> Would be very nice soon lol


Yes, many powerlifters train with a greater frequency. Some don't, however, myself included. I'll be slaughtered by my mates for saying this lol but most of the 250lb plus powerlifting guys I know are carrying a fair bit of timber:whistling: I work with a guy who has a national record in his class and no-one realises that he lifts until it crops up in conversation...


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## GCMAX

Have to say I'm a 3 times a week guy also but my brother is talking about going from 5 to 6 days a week. It may be to do with motivation. If you do something regularly it becomes second nature and it's much harder to shy away from it.


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## alexyZZZ

For me personally, i go 6 times a week, doing my own version of Push Pull Legs. My reasoning for this is for two reasons. I have a lot of weight to shift and 6 days (even if some arent as big as others) feels like the right amount! The second reason is purely psychological, i feel SOOO much better after a good gym session, im sure others have other reasons, but these are mine.


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## Trevor McDonald

ConP said:


> How many huge naturals (don't say that's an oxymoron haha) only train 3 days per week...
> 
> Biggest natural dudes I know train balls to the wall 5-6 days a week.
> 
> Which means how much does steroid use mask the need to train more?


For natural clients looking to gain size, would uou have them train 5-6 days per week?


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## ConP

Mey said:


> For natural clients looking to gain size, would uou have them train 5-6 days per week?


Usually but not always.


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## big_jim_87

bail said:


> Very good point,
> 
> Also i do appreciate that their are people out their that are huge that train 3 x a week
> 
> But pretty sure to say all the current best ifbb pros (I'm aware dexter Jackson used a 3 day split in 2006) , intact prob all strength/contact sport athletes
> 
> Train more than 3 x a week


I thought it was 3on 1off 3on...

Not sure tho


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## simonboyle

I like going to the gym.


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## bail

big_jim_87 said:


> I thought it was 3on 1off 3on...
> 
> Not sure tho


Who's that dexter??

In 2006 he did the chest/back,shoulders/bis/tris,

Legs split

Now trains more like the rest I think

(Or atleast seems on youtube vids etc)


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## big_jim_87

bail said:


> Who's that dexter??
> 
> In 2006 he did the chest/back,shoulders/bis/tris,
> 
> Legs split
> 
> Now trains more like the rest I think
> 
> (Or atleast seems on youtube vids etc)


Yea i thought he was ppl 3on 1off repeat?


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## bail

big_jim_87 said:


> Yea i thought he was ppl 3on 1off repeat?


Theirs interview where he basically boasts about his genetics

Saying he only trains 3 x a week eats out up to a few weeks out etc,

I know he trains 5-6 times a week now

Either way pretty sure every other pro trains more than 3x a week ??


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## big_jim_87

bail said:


> Theirs interview where he basically boasts about his genetics
> 
> Saying he only trains 3 x a week eats out up to a few weeks out etc,
> 
> I know he trains 5-6 times a week now
> 
> Either way pretty sure every other pro trains more than 3x a week ??


Ok probably then


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## bail

big_jim_87 said:


> Ok probably then


Don't go into too much depth their Jim lol


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## nWo

I mostly train 1 on/1 off, but if I ever feel like I need an extra day off I wouldn't give a second thought or feel guilty for taking it.


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## Sway12

Dorian talks about it here - says 3x 45 mins a week. wish he would elaborate on what to do routine wise if your only in the gym 3x a week, i'm still worried that low volume ASWELL as low frequency will hinder my gains..


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## simonboyle

It's highly variable. To each their own.


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## Mingster

simonboyle said:


> It's highly variable. To each their own.


Everything is variable, and as I state in the OP there will always be exceptions. Fact is there have only been 2/3 people post in the entire thread who have achieved 250lbs at 6 feet tall or under training multiple times a week. And one of them found that his gains exploded still further when he dropped to 3 times a week training. That tells me something.

No good comparing with pro bodybuilders and the like. 99.9% of people will never get halfway near to what they can achieve.


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## simonboyle

Yeah. I fund u get sloppy and weaker at just 3x a week. I'm 6'2'' 220ish lbs. But as stated, I like training. It's my hobby as well as my relaxation.


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## RowRow

Mingster said:


> Everything is variable, and as I state in the OP there will always be exceptions. Fact is there have only been 2/3 people post in the entire thread who have achieved 250lbs at 6 feet tall or under training multiple times a week. And one of them found that his gains exploded still further when he dropped to 3 times a week training. That tells me something.
> 
> No good comparing with pro bodybuilders and the like. 99.9% of people will never get halfway near to what they can achieve.


Yayy I'm part of the 250lb club. Or was.

I could never hit above 17 stone and when I dropped down to 4x a week I shot past it and hit 18 stone.

I always used to think more is more but smarter training is better than just more training


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## Mingster

The main factor in training frequency with most people isn't optimising results imo.

This is the pattern I see from most gym goers. Not knocking this at all or in any way, but it is my observation.


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## Sway12

Mingster said:


> The main factor in training frequency with most people isn't optimising results imo.
> 
> This is the pattern I see from most gym goers. Not knocking this at all or in any way, but it is my observation.


you mean people hit the same muscles too many times per week?


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## Mingster

Sway12 said:


> you mean people hit the same muscles too many times per week?


No. I mean that the majority of gym goers base their training frequency on factors other than optimum results training wise.

People like training. They get a buzz from exercise. They enjoy the social aspects of gym going. They like watching fit girls or athletic men. They feel that they need to train because more is always better than less. They feel guilt from missing a day's training. They need to burn calories that they shouldn't have eaten in the first place. This list is endless.

There is nothing wrong with any of these reasons. As long as people are happy then that's all that really matters tbh. But they don't lend themselves to optimum muscle building and size hence the thread title...


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## Sway12

Mingster said:


> No. I mean that the majority of gym goers base their training frequency on factors other than optimum results training wise.
> 
> People like training. They get a buzz from exercise. They enjoy the social aspects of gym going. They like watching fit girls or athletic men. They feel that they need to train because more is always better than less. They feel guilt from missing a day's training. They need to burn calories that they shouldn't have eaten in the first place. This list is endless.
> 
> There is nothing wrong with any of these reasons. As long as people are happy then that's all that really matters tbh. But they don't lend themselves to optimum muscle building and size hence the thread title...


I agree, except there are some like me who have been told that in order to get the best gains, each muscle group should be hit 2x a week (as a natty), otherwise protein synthesis isnt taken advantage of. Apparently hitting a muscle once a week is a poor training frequency... I'm still a bit of a newbie so don't really know who to believe, but that's what science says apparently.


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## Trevor McDonald

Sway12 said:


> I agree, except there are some like me who have been told that in order to get the best gains, each muscle group should be hit 2x a week (as a natty), otherwise protein synthesis isnt taken advantage of. Apparently hitting a muscle once a week is a poor training frequency... I'm still a bit of a newbie so don't really know who to believe, but that's what science says apparently.


I've read this many times also.


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## Robhall2805

I train 4-6 times a week now depending on how my shift falls however and this may sound stupid i get really angry if i dont go, the gym relaxes me totally after a session its like i have no anger in me but if i dont go for a couple of days thats it, Raging majorly!!

Another reason i do this is I've gone from being an extremely skinny guy like 12st to now where im 6ft 2 and 16stone I know 2lb dont get us wrong i still believe im skinny and have a long way to go but ive put on alot of mass with some bf but il lose that it makes my mind feel great, it makes me feel great and eventually one day I want to look great and i will keep on at it.

Everyone has their different reasons whether that be aesthetics or just to feel frikin amazing!!!


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## Mingster

Sway12 said:


> I agree, except there are some like me who have been told that in order to get the best gains, each muscle group should be hit 2x a week (as a natty), otherwise protein synthesis isnt taken advantage of. Apparently hitting a muscle once a week is a poor training frequency... I'm still a bit of a newbie so don't really know who to believe, but that's what science says apparently.





Mey said:


> I've read this many times also.


Well I can only go on my own experiences. I trained natty for 7/8 years before using aas. I trained 3 times a week and reached 230lbs this way. I have a mate at work who trains the same way and is easily 270lbs, although he is 6' 1" and he's never been near a ped in his life. There will always be others who respond to different approaches but it's certainly not unusual ime for people to pack on the size training like this either on or off aas.


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## Lil Robo

So Mingster what would you say would be the ideal training routine for a week would be to get huge. your a big fella so how do you train


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## aad123

Mingster said:


> No. I mean that the majority of gym goers base their training frequency on factors other than optimum results training wise.
> 
> People like training. They get a buzz from exercise. They enjoy the social aspects of gym going. They like watching fit girls or athletic men. They feel that they need to train because more is always better than less. They feel guilt from missing a day's training. They need to burn calories that they shouldn't have eaten in the first place. This list is endless.
> 
> There is nothing wrong with any of these reasons. As long as people are happy then that's all that really matters tbh. But they don't lend themselves to optimum muscle building and size hence the thread title...


Don't forget that some people train a lot to get away from the wife. I do.


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## lachu543

I think people can't grow on more than 4/5 days training becouse they usually don't eat adequately to their schedule workout. Diet is more important thing which is determine that you will be grow or not than amount of your training days.


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## Mingster

Lil Robo said:


> So Mingster what would you say would be the ideal training routine for a week would be to get huge. your a big fella so how do you train


Well, how I train nowadays is logged in my journal. Basically I use a P/P/L focusing on Bench/Deads/ Squat with assistance.

Push day would be several sets of Bench, 3 sets Rack Lockouts, 2 sets Flat Flyes, Side and Rear Laterals 2 sets each.

Pull...Lots of Deads. 3x Chins, 3x Snatch Grip High Pulls, 3x Face Pulls, 2/3 Seated DB Curls.

Legs...Lots of Squats, 3x RDL's, 3x Box Jumps, 3x Barbell Calf Raises.

My basic P/P/L workout which I have logged many times would be...

Bench, Dips, Tricep Exercise.

Deads, Chins, Bicep Exercise.

Squats, SLDL, Calf Exercise.


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## Sway12

Mingster said:


> Well, how I train nowadays is logged in my journal. Basically I use a P/P/L focusing on Bench/Deads/ Squat with assistance.
> 
> Push day would be several sets of Bench, 3 sets Rack Lockouts, 2 sets Flat Flyes, Side and Rear Laterals 2 sets each.
> 
> Pull...Lots of Deads. 3x Chins, 3x Snatch Grip High Pulls, 3x Face Pulls, 2/3 Seated DB Curls.
> 
> Legs...Lots of Squats, 3x RDL's, 3x Box Jumps, 3x Barbell Calf Raises.
> 
> My basic P/P/L workout which I have logged many times would be...
> 
> Bench, Dips, Tricep Exercise.
> 
> Deads, Chins, Bicep Exercise.
> 
> Squats, SLDL, Calf Exercise.


Mingster, any decent replacement for dips? For some reason my shoulder burns whenever I do them...


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## Mingster

Sway12 said:


> Mingster, any decent replacement for dips? For some reason my shoulder burns whenever I do them...


Some would disagree but I like Flat Flyes...


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## Sway12

Mingster said:


> Some would disagree but I like Flat Flyes...


Wait so you do those dips for chest?


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## Mingster

Sway12 said:


> Wait so you do those dips for chest?


Dips work chest, shoulders and triceps. Known as the upper body squat. Do them like this...


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## Sway12

Mingster, how long did it take you to see results with this routine? Also how did you find out about it? Self made?


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## Mingster

Sway12 said:


> Mingster, how long did it take you to see results with this routine? Also how did you find out about it? Self made?


I started using this routine in the early 80's so I couldn't say in all certainty the exact time scale of my progress. However, I was 170lbs when I started training and I was 230lbs when I decided to give up the natty approach some 7 years later.

The routine was taken from advice given by Olympic lifters and powerlifters in the gym I used at the time.


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## GetSuperBig

Mingster - You tried the Vince Gironda dips?


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## Mingster

GetSuperBig said:


> Mingster - You tried the Vince Gironda dips?


I do after a fashion. I always dip with my feet out in front of me but I don't tend to flare my elbows out so much as they give me a lot of pain in the elbow tendons when I go heavy.


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## GetSuperBig

Mingster said:


> I do after a fashion. I always dip with my feet out in front of me but I don't tend to flare my elbows out so much as they give me a lot of pain in the elbow tendons when I go heavy.


Fair enough...i've never done dips tbh but im gonna put them in as my main exercise for a while and see how it goes


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## Mingster

I do them like this...


----------

