# D (bol) Day 6th June



## samurai691436114498

Well 6th of June it is then, start of my 14 on 14 off cycle.

Got my Apex d-bol today 500 tabs  (felt like a kid waiting to open his presents  )

I am going to take all measurments, weight etc and hopefully post up pics tomorrow, 5th June

I have decided that the first 2 weeks i will be taking all 15 mg in the morning, and will see how that goes. I also train earlyish so could get a boost in the gym also.

Then 2 weeks off

The following 2 week cycle i will space the dose 5mg three times per day.

Then which ever i feel is best will be continued for another month, then 3/4 weeks off and then a continuation until a week or so before Xmas

I have nolva on hand incase (but at this low dose probably not necessary).


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## chris31

jmo but thats too small a dose for you to see noticeable difference, I would look at starting with 30-35mg/day and see how you go with that mate.


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## samurai691436114498

chris31 said:


> jmo but thats too small a dose for you to see noticeable difference, I would look at starting with 30-35mg/day and see how you go with that mate.


If it was going to be a short 6 week cycle thats what would be the norm YES.

But this will be 14 days on, 14 days off, for three months then a slightly longer break then will continue, so almost 6 months in total.

I expect keepable gains of 1 to 2 lbs per 2 week cycle, so that will be 8 - 14 lbs keepable gains over the 6 months, and at such a low dose, should see little if any bloat etc

I may go to a max of 20mg if there are no gains, or when the gains this way stop.


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## chris31

Although I agree with the principle of your cycle I am still of the opinion that dianabol is reasonably ineffective in small doses although it would save me a fortune on high doses if you could prove me wrong, keep us posted on your progress.


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## DB

na bollocks mate..... i ran dbol at 15-20 mg on my first cycle and realy noticed it... go for it samurai!


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## ChefX

I found that 2 weeks was under the level a tad and as such I went with 25 on 17 off then 25 on 24 off cycles.

I say give it a go though and let us know the results.


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## Tuna_boi

Start munching thoose little tablets dude...Keep us posted of the results..


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## Cookie

Tuna_boi said:


> Start munching thoose little tablets dude...


Actually years ago I found that with some types of gear I could get same/better results and less side effects with putting the tabs under my tongue and letting them dissolve over a few hrs rather than just swallowing the tabsmg:

But thats another story

Hope it all goes well samuria.............


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## samurai691436114498

ONE SMART COOKIE said:


> Actually years ago I found that with some types of gear I could get same/better results and less side effects with putting the tabs under my tongue and letting them dissolve over a few hrs rather than just swallowing the tabsmg:
> 
> But thats another story
> 
> Hope it all goes well samuria.............


LOL, on the way home from getting them, I tried one, sort of sweet with a nasty after taste, so may try that LOL


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## ChefX

ONE SMART COOKIE said:


> Actually years ago I found that with some types of gear I could get same/better results and less side effects with putting the tabs under my tongue and letting them dissolve over a few hrs rather than just swallowing the tabsmg:
> 
> But thats another story
> 
> Hope it all goes well samuria.............


great thought

I know a guy who could not swallow tabs,

so he ground them fine and put them in yogurt

i know another who does the same but uses glycerol and does like you did osc and puts them under tongue

could be worth an examine??


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## samurai691436114498

ChefX said:


> great thought
> 
> I know a guy who could not swallow tabs,
> 
> so he ground them fine and put them in yogurt
> 
> i know another who does the same but uses glycerol and does like you did osc and puts them under tongue
> 
> could be worth an examine??


Well maybe my third 2 weeks i will crunch and suck


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## Timmy Smooth

Interested to see how you get on, Sam69. Keep us posted.


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## samurai691436114498

Timmy Smooth said:


> Interested to see how you get on, Sam69. Keep us posted.


Me too


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## samurai691436114498

camera sorted , pics and weigh in tomorrow.


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## Cookie

ChefX said:


> great thought
> 
> I know a guy who could not swallow tabs,
> 
> so he ground them fine and put them in yogurt
> 
> i know another who does the same but uses glycerol and does like you did osc and puts them under tongue
> 
> could be worth an examine??


No you cant its cookierighted,lol

If you do let me know what the results are as I`ve done tons crazy/different stuff like that over the years just out of sheer boredom and experimenting...


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## samurai691436114498

When i went to pick up tabs, thought i would try one (excited kid) sweet and nasty in a strange way. Better than wine gums LOL


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## Timmy Smooth

samurai69 said:


> sweet and nasty in a strange way.


Sounds like cu.....

......curried donuts.


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## samurai691436114498

Timmy Smooth said:


> Sounds like cu.....
> 
> ......curried donuts.


L

o

l

:crazy:


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## hackskii

Well, I did a 30 day at 20mg Dbol split one in the morning and one in the afternoon and gained 10 lbs.

I think they worked ok.

Make sure the diet is good and you should'nt have much of a problem from what I can see.

I put on weight with D-Bol but I think it was mostly water weight.


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## samurai691436114498

Stats as of 5th June 2005

Height 6' and a bit

Weight 88.5 kg

BF % worked out by http://www.battlezinc.com/bodyfatcalc.asp

Jackson Pollock 7 Site 9.9%

Jackson Pollock 3 Site 7.4%

Pollack et al 10.2%

Parillo 9 site 10.1%

Average body fat 9.4%

Measurements relaxed and un pumped

Right Bicep 16.25"

Chest 44"

Waist (belly button height) 36"

Hip 38.5"

Thigh 24"

Calf 16"

Nexk 18.5"

Pictures to follow later today


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## Captain Hero

good stuff S69! Whats your routine going to be for when you start?


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## samurai691436114498

Cap said:


> good stuff S69! Whats your routine going to be for when you start?


More of the same, I have been making some ok gains on the weight lifted, so will just up the intensity,

Unless anyone has some suggestions


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## Jock

I'll be interested to see your results mate, the very best of luck, Jock


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## samurai691436114498

Collage of starting pics. Posing is Sh1t


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## Captain Hero

Good build mate, decent arms and shoulders, your legs are a lot like mine mate in their shape. Keep me updated mate! I want to hear how your getting on!


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## hackskii

Yah, I agree with Cap, you look pretty good.

Good base to go from.

Your waist looks smaller than 36 TBH.

You could drop your bodyfat down and look really good.

You actually should do pretty well on the d-bol.


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## samurai691436114498

hackskii said:


> Yah, I agree with Cap, you look pretty good.
> 
> Good base to go from.
> 
> Your waist looks smaller than 36 TBH.
> 
> You could drop your bodyfat down and look really good.
> 
> You actually should do pretty well on the d-bol.


LOL, cheers, hope so


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## Tuna_boi

Good luck with the cycle man. Not bad looking already, keen to know ur results, as I might do a dbol cycle soon myself.


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## Jock

looking good similar stats to me, but leaner


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## samurai691436114498

Jock said:


> looking good similar stats to me, *but leaner*


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## Jock

Got a Prop/Tren/Var/T3 cycle lined up mate, so gonna rip it up!


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## samurai691436114498

Well started this morning all 3 tabs at once, will try this way for first 2 weeks.

Trained as normal, though tried to increase PB on all lifts, so that I have something to compare against.

I will Do similar this week on one main exercise per body part (Bent row - back, Bench or Incline bench - chest, difficult doing a leg exercise as squats suck because of knee, decline close grip Bench press - triceps, Bar Bell Curl - Biceps, Deadlifts - Because i want to get over a sticking point).

So for Shoulders

Smith Machine Press was 100kg for 8 reps (did 125kg for 3 half reps)

Hang Clean and Press was 50kg for 5 good reps (did 2 at 65 kg)

Shrugs behind back 200kg for 8 good reps (did 260kg for 1 and half reps).

It would be nice to see the weights creep over these points


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## samurai691436114498

Day 2 exercises for back

Cable row 8 reps at 130kg

v bar pulldown 6 reps at 125kg

Barbell rows 3 reps at 115kg

managed 3 reps of 50kg alternating dumbell rows (this should be improved on

Drinking loads of water, doesnt help that its 35 degrees out side.


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## samurai691436114498

Went back to the gym this evening to help with my wifes training, whilst i was ther finished my back workout (lower back this evening) and there was a definate feel of more aggression (probably psychological) but i managed heaviest weight on pull throughs and felt better on good mornings and incline crunchies


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## gazmatrix

Looking good mate, nice weights your putting up there... I'm also thinking about starting a D-bol only cycle for my first cycle in a few weeks so it will be interesting to see how you get on with the D-bol...


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## the_gre8t_1ne

DUDE! Your lifting up some serious weight! I wish I could say the same! Im only doing about 100kg freewight for shrugs and i thaught i was da man! :lift: LOL!


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## samurai691436114498

Day 3, Chest

bench 130kg for 5

incline dumbell press 50kg for 6

felt a pump in chest, no more than usual, there was a bit more determination (psychological i am sure)

Had tinitis yesterday for a short while and again last night (paranoia is setting in), but think its just hay fever really


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## Captain Hero

samurai69 said:


> Day 3, Chest
> 
> bench 130kg for 5
> 
> incline dumbell press 50kg for 6
> 
> felt a pump in chest, no more than usual, there was a bit more determination (psychological i am sure)
> 
> Had tinitis yesterday for a short while and again last night (paranoia is setting in), but think its just hay fever really


Good stuff man! Keep it up!


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## samurai691436114498

Day 4 had to do arms aswell as legs today as gym is shut tomorrow for bank holiday

Nothing spectacular with legs.

Tricep cable pressdown weight increased by 5 kg since last week now 55kg for 5 reps, T extensions 50kg. Bicep Dumbell Hammer curl seated 30 kg for 6 reps.

Felt a bit lethargic going to the gym as its hot out, but in the gym, once i got started there was a bit more aggression, still not sure if its psychological.

Next training session is saturday, deadlifts and i have had a sticking point so hope to push beyond that.

Then will see how things are going next week


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## Aftershock

I think it is probably a placebo effect this early in, but quite fankly who cares what it is 

keep it up!


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## hackskii

When I am on gear, I never ever skip a workout.

That is motivation too.


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## samurai691436114498

6 days on, I seem to get tinituis for a while after taking my 15mg all together in the mornings. It passes after a while, is this lickely to be a side effect, or something completely un attached.

Managed to beat my personal best on the deadlift yesterday by 2.5 kg, so just from a determination point of view in the gym, things are working.

Well 7 more days and hopefully some marked results to come.

I was reading about the testosterone boosting effects of nolvadex and was thinking maybe to take 1/2 or 1 tab a day during my 14 days off, any thoughts YES / NO ???



> Nolvadex also seems preferred from long-term use, for those who find anti-estrogens effective enough at raising testosterone levels to warrant using as anabolics. Here Nolvadex would seem to provide a better and more stable increase in testosterone levels, and likely will offer a similar or greater effect than Clomid for considerably less money.


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## hackskii

What Causes Tinnitus? Most tinnitus comes from damage to the inner ear, specfically the cochlea (the snail like thing on the right). Tinnitus can also arise from damage to the nerve between the ear and brain (8th nerve, labelled 6, auditory nerve), much more rarely from injury to the brainstem (Lanska et al, 1987), and extremely rarely, to the brain itself. There are specific causes. Ear wax can rarely cause tinnitus. Other causes include middle ear infection or fluid, Meniere's disease, microvascular compression syndrome, and tumors of the 8th nerve. Patients with Meniere's disease often describe a low pitched tinnitus resembling a hiss or a roar. Pulsatile tinnitus (tinnitus that beats with your pulse) can be caused by aneurysms, increased pressure in the head (hydrocephalus), and hardening of the arteries. Anything that increases blood flow or turbulence such as hyperthyroidism, low blood viscosity (e.g. anemia), or tortuous blood vessels may cause pulstitle tinnitus. Vitamin B12 deficiency is common in tinnitus patients.

Loud noise is the leading cause of damage to the inner ear. Most patients with noise trauma describe a whistling tinnitus (Nicholas-Puel et al,. 2002) Advancing age may also be accompanied by inner ear damage and tinnitus. Many medications also can cause tinnitus (see list below). Generally this is thought to arise from their effect on the cochlea (inner ear).

Drugs that commonly cause or increase tinnitus

NSAIDS (motrin, naproxen, relafen, etc)

aspirin and other salicylates

Lasix and other "loop" diuretics

"mycin" antibiotics

quinine and related drugs

Chemotherapy such as cis-platin

Rarely, some of the SSRI antidepressants

As far as the testosterone boosting effects of nolva on your two weeks off.

I have read that several times before and I actually believe it to some extent.

It might make your cholesterol profile look a bit better too.

Now, I have not tried it for the above so bump for someone who has.

I cant remember who but someone said they tried it but cant remember the members name.


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## samurai691436114498

hackskii said:


> Other causes include middle ear infection or fluid, Meniere's disease,
> 
> .


Had this a few weeks ago, so maybe a reccurance



hackskii said:


> As far as the testosterone boosting effects of nolva on your two weeks off.
> 
> I have read that several times before and I actually believe it to some extent.
> 
> It might make your cholesterol profile look a bit better too.
> 
> Now, I have not tried it for the above so bump for someone who has.
> 
> I cant remember who but someone said they tried it but cant remember the members name.


Anyone ??, what should i take 1 or 1/2 tab ED ????


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## hackskii

Clomid, Nolvadex and Testosterone Stimulation

by William Llewellyn

Taken from here: http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/showthread.php?t=4676&highlight=nolvadex



hackskii said:


> Nolvadex also seems preferred from long-term use, for those who find anti-estrogens effective enough at raising testosterone levels to warrant using as anabolics. Here Nolvadex would seem to provide a better and more stable increase in testosterone levels, and likely will offer a similar or greater effect than Clomid for considerably less money. The potential rise in SHBG levels with Clomid, supported by other research (3), is also cause for concern, as this might work to allow for comparably less free active testosterone compared to Nolvadex as well. Ultimately both drugs are effective anti-estrogens for the prevention of gyno and elevation of endogenous testosterone, however the above research provides enough evidence for me to choose Nolvadex every time.


Here is another read, long but very informative: http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/showthread.php?p=105048#post105048


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## samurai691436114498

hackskii said:


> Clomid, Nolvadex and Testosterone Stimulation
> 
> by William Llewellyn
> 
> Taken from here: http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/showthread.php?t=4676&highlight=nolvadex


Thats where i got the info from. hack

So how much do you reckon post 14 day cycle


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## samurai691436114498

Day 8,

Dbell shoulder presses 8/6/6 @ 40kg (88 lbs)

New PB on shrugs 250kg for 5 reps

Felt good in gym today.

Have to say no sign of water or any real bloat, drinking a shed load of water too.


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## hackskii

samurai69 said:


> So how much do you reckon post 14 day cycle


20mg a day nolvadex, that does the same as 150 clomid.

So 20 mg a day, should be fine.

Let me know how that goes, I have some extra nolva lying around.


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## samurai691436114498

Day 9, Back

Difficult to say how things are going on back days weights as i am already loading the cables with extra weights (machine goes to 100kg and a load of 30kg extra), managed a few extra reps on cable stuff and 3 complete sets of 3/4/5 reps of Bar bell bent rows with 120kg. Also managed one set of 3 reps of alternating dumbell row with 50 kg dumbells

Lower back is a bit sore from yesterdays shrugs (i guess) and a little tight today, but no real ache or water bloat from cycle. Still drinking shed loads of water.

Its my birthday saturday so will be drinking a bit, but as its close to the end of the 14 days I wont worry too much, and i will still be taking the milk thistle.

Will start 20mg of nolva from monday 20th for the following 14 days


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## samurai691436114498

Day 10 chest.

Pushed way past my previous (120 kg for reps) chest pressing , 140kg barbell Bench press for 4 reps

Dumbell incline presses 3 sets of 8 reps with 50 kg (previously pyramid 40/45/50 for 6 reps)

and a small rack press (top couple of inches) with 220 kg.

So strength is going up well, pump in chest felt good, still no noticable water retention.

Have notice the last 2 days while walking fairly quickly some anterior tibialis pain (like compartmental tightness) it stops soon after i stop walking.


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## Aftershock

samurai69 said:


> Day 10 chest.
> 
> Pushed way past my previous (120 kg for reps) chest pressing , 140kg barbell Bench press for 6 reps.


So your bench press has gone up 20k in 10 days?


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## wicko69uk

i'm on my 3rd week of dbol and have also noticed pains in my shins and a little in my calfs. Hopefully its just water retention and will soon go after discontinuing dbol!


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## samurai691436114498

Aftershock said:


> So your bench press has gone up 20k in 10 days?


for the amount of reps YES, wasnt expecting it.

PB for 1 rep was 140, managed 4 reps today


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## Aftershock

You sure your not taking 3*50mg drol tabs instead of 3*5mg dbol? 

Seriously tho, its very good gains especially for dbol only and such a modest dose.


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## hackskii

Its his first cycle tho too.

Not only that I can tell by his posts he is really motivated.

That alone can drive a guys weights up some.

What D-bol are you taking Samauri?


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## samurai691436114498

Aftershock said:


> You sure your not taking 3*50mg drol tabs instead of 3*5mg dbol?
> 
> Seriously tho, its very good gains especially for dbol only and such a modest dose.


LOL  thanks

I think a fair bit is psychological and I am probably pushing harder than usual, Intensity and determination are definately up.

but at the end of the day its the gains that count (strength and size)


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## the_gre8t_1ne

Man, what ever ur doin keep it up, i just finished a dbol only cycle @ 30mg a day, and in the end i only managed to gain about 7KG and increase my bench by about 10KG and my arms to curl 27.5KG dumbells, but i do that for 3 sets of 5/6


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## the_gre8t_1ne

you got any befor and after pic's?


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## samurai691436114498

befores are on here, when i finish sunday, i will take weight measurement, then 14 days off (possibly with nolva) then 14 more days on cycle, then i will take measurements and after pics, that will be around 17th July


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## samurai691436114498

Not going to gym till later, Its legs so i cant push too hard Shame as I am sure the weights would have shot up. (last week probably pushed too hard on hamstrings as it has been nigelly all week)

Will have a go at doing 100's on leg extensions and curls and calfs, then just feet together squats.

Yesterday my lower back was a bit achiey (sp), it was probably bought about by back training the day before, but felt different to normal back ache, also had a couple of hamstring cramps that i wouldnt normally have had, still no real sign of fluid buildup though.

Had a sneaky peak on the scale and weight has definately gone up


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## samurai691436114498

hackskii said:


> Its his first cycle tho too.
> 
> Not only that I can tell by his posts he is really motivated.
> 
> That alone can drive a guys weights up some.
> 
> What D-bol are you taking Samauri?


*Apex* (d-bol)

As a side note, the first time i took creatine 7 or so years ago i noticed a big jump on bench press. at the time went from about 50kg up to about 70kg

Hack, what time of day would you say would be best to take the nolva, from a purely testosterone boosting point of view



> Nolvadex also seems preferred from long-term use, for those who find anti-estrogens effective enough at raising testosterone levels to warrant using as anabolics.


I thought last thing at night to promote a boost in the am ????

.


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## Captain Hero

samurai69 said:


> *Apex* (d-bol)
> 
> As a side note, the first time i took creatine 7 or so years ago i noticed a big jump on bench press. at the time went from about 50kg up to about 70kg
> 
> Hack, what time of day would you say would be best to take the nolva, from a purely testosterone boosting point of view
> 
> I thought last thing at night to promote a boost in the am ????
> 
> .


BUMP for hack the mans reply  How much has your weight gone up samurai mate? a lb or 2? more? how are you feeling generally whilst on?


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## samurai691436114498

Cap said:


> BUMP for hack the mans reply  How much has your weight gone up samurai mate? a lb or 2? more? how are you feeling generally whilst on?


Will measure weight properly on monday, just had a sneaky peek,

Feel ok, maybe a bit grumpier, but not so you would notice, a bit more determined in the gym.

These back aches only happened yesterday and probably wouldnt have been noticable if i hadn pushed hard on back day

The 2 cramps were no worse than anything I have had before, the shin pain whilst walking is annoying


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## samurai691436114498

Just did 100's on leg ext, seated leg curl, leg press and seated calf, and my muscles are still shaking now, what a good workout in a short time.

Couldnt do squats as lower back is aching a lot now.


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## samurai691436114498

Last training day before finishing this part of cycle, two more days of d-bol, then will start nolvadex on monday, one tab a day for 14 days.

Will post up weight on monday, confident that there is a very acceptable gain.

Today was arm day.

managed 3 setsof 8 reps on d bell curls at 30kg (felt a lot easier) then had a go with 35kg (i know this is too heavy, but managed 4 rather sloppy reps). Tricep press downs were even better and went from 55kg (which i managed last week to 57kg and then managed 4 at 60 kg), so definately some good strength increases.

Still drinking shed loads of water (temperature is kreeping up 32 today and 38 forecast for tomorrow)

Lower back is still achey


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## the_gre8t_1ne

damn, ur making crazy gains in such a short time! I wish I was able to achieve that!


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## samurai691436114498

the_gre8t_1ne said:


> damn, ur making crazy gains in such a short time! I wish I was able to achieve that!


I still reckon half of its a mind thing, If its like this on the next I will be really happy.

Cant say i really notice much in the mirror, but scales say weight is on, will not post pics or stats until after the end of the second run, incase there is a big drop in weight from fluid etc


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## Cookie

Why are you using nolva for 14 days after such a short cycle??????

I would have thought some trib & zinc would have been a better option and maybe a little creatine to hold onto the fluid in the muscles fom the dbol before the next cycle.


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## samurai691436114498

ONE SMART COOKIE said:


> Why are you using nolva for 14 days after such a short cycle??????
> 
> I would have thought some trib & zinc would have been a better option and maybe a little creatine to hold onto the fluid in the muscles fom the dbol before the next cycle.


After reading this



> Nolvadex also seems preferred from long-term use, for those who find anti-estrogens effective enough at raising testosterone levels to warrant using as anabolics. Here Nolvadex would seem to provide a better and more stable increase in testosterone levels


and this quote



> A rarely observed but welcome characteristic of Nolvadex is that it has a direct influence on the hypothalamus and thus, by an in-creased release of gonadotropine, it stimulates the testosterone pro-duction in the testes. This does not result in a tremendous but still a measurable increase of the body's own testosterone


so will try it for the following 14 days, i will continue to monitor progress / gains and if it seems to be working will continue after the second 14 day run of d-bol, if not then i wont use it again unless there are any signs of gyno

The creatine maybe a good idea, what would you suggest 5g witout a loading dose would seem right???

.

.


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## hackskii

Absolutly use creatine during your 14 day off for sure.

Hey, you can do what you want, it is all trackable in this diary and this is permanent.

What better record can one have but a daily journal tracking results?

Its a good thing......


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## Cookie

samurai69 said:


> After reading this
> 
> and this quote
> 
> so will try it for the following 14 days, i will continue to monitor progress / gains and if it seems to be working will continue after the second 14 day run of d-bol, if not then i wont use it again unless there are any signs of gyno
> 
> The creatine maybe a good idea, what would you suggest 5g witout a loading dose would seem right???
> 
> .
> 
> .


The drawback to using the nolva on your time off is that your still on a drug and not giving the body to correct itself on its own..plus nolva can be hard on the liver.imo..so what with the dbol stressing the liver you then add the nolva and your stressing it a little more all be it small but its never going to get chance to right itself..imho...

Think homeostasis all the way and the gains will come all be it more slowly than somebody thats impatient/foolish enough to bang gear in no matter the cost......

I would use one of the cell volumising creating product...eg..san turbo et al....and just follow the guide lines on the tub for say 10 days then 4 days of totally clean before doing your cycle again......

cookie........


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## samurai691436114498

Ok, so maybe will drop the nolva, will def stick with a creatine, and 10 days sounds ok. will wait until monday to see exactly - any more suggestions ?? - I have an open mind to this whole thing


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## Cookie

samurai69 said:


> Ok, any more suggestions ?? - I have an open mind to this whole thing


I`ve heard drinking your own urine and standing in sheep sh!t makes you grow:eek: raflmao........

Seriously just stick with the trib & zinc like I said and add the creatine ok

cookie.......


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## samurai691436114498

ONE SMART COOKIE said:


> I`ve heard drinking your own urine and standing in sheep sh!t makes you grow:eek: raflmao........
> 
> Seriously just stick with the trib & zinc like I said and add the creatine ok
> 
> cookie.......


LOL, thanks, might give that one a miss


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## samurai691436114498

Ok, yesterday was my birthday, we went to a multi sports day, so did not train, had 3 or 4 ciders and then went for a curry, so not too good food wise and half way through the night was sick (not from alchol) so not so good there either

Played 15 mins of Lacrosse, sprints so no real pains from fluid or anything.

Today I feel ok, no back ache and this evening i am going out for a few more drinks at a friends birthday.

Then 2 weeks off, It will be interesting to see how the strength and weight are over this period.


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## hackskii

ONE SMART COOKIE said:


> I`ve heard drinking your own urine and standing in sheep sh!t makes you grow:eek: raflmao........
> 
> cookie.......


Does that work?

I am ok with the urine but I will have to get some sheep to make this work.

Where can I buy some sheep?


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## samurai691436114498

hackskii said:


> Does that work?
> 
> I am ok with the urine but I will have to get some sheep to make this work.
> 
> Where can I buy some sheep?


Goats will do, go to your man with the colostrum   :jerk: :jerk:


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## hackskii

samurai69 said:


> Goats will do, go to your man with the colostrum   :jerk: :jerk:


HaaaaHaaaaa

Not only do you have a sense of humor, you are funny too. 

Along with a good memory too :beer1:


----------



## samurai691436114498

Ok, Just weighed my self 15 days after starting my cycle. I was 88.5 kg (194 lbs) this morning I am 91 kg (200 lbs). I am sure there is a little fluid on, as i had some back pain (probably from water)

I will weigh myself again in 2 weeks time before starting my next 14 day cycle


----------



## samurai691436114498

samurai69 said:


> DAY 1
> 
> Smith Machine Press was 100kg for 8 reps (did 125kg for 3 half reps)
> 
> Hang Clean and Press was 50kg for 5 good reps (did 2 at 65 kg)
> 
> Shrugs behind back 200kg for 8 good reps (did 260kg for 1 and half reps).
> 
> .





samurai69 said:


> DAY 8,
> 
> Dbell shoulder presses 8/6/6 @ 40kg (88 lbs)
> 
> New PB on shrugs 250kg for 5 reps
> 
> .


DAY 15

Smith machine press 100kg for 2 sets 8 reps

D-bell shoulder press 6/6/6 un spotted so didn push for extra reps

Shrugs 10/160, 8/200, 3/240, 1/250

could have pushed harder but forgot to bring my journal so guessed at top weights. Still felt good in the gym though 

.


----------



## samurai691436114498

3rd day of training since the end of first cycle and the weights are staying the same or a slight increase in reps or weights, so thats good

Still drinking loads of water, but pi55ing slightly less

I decided to take nolvadex (at the end of cycle i had an itchy nip so thought i had better take one[probably not related-but better safe] so will continue to run the nolva for 10 days total) as well as creatine (this started late [today] as i had run out and this was first time to shop--- weider 100% pure is all they had----taking 5g per day).


----------



## MattyB1436114502

Hi Samurai69

Been following your post and im interested to c how u do on the d-bol. Im going on a course myself soon.

Im running 30mg for 6 weeks to try and put some good size on after being clean from steroids for over 11 months.

In the future though i think im going to adopt the shorter cycle strategy like yourself as i think its the way to go especially for those who have not already used big cycles.

The main reasons for me would be to prevent total shutdown and most side effects. After coming off Test it took over 6 months for my back to clear from spots. Dont want that to happen again. I also want to keep the gains ive made or at least 50% and this will b the way to do it.

Have u noticed any shutdown?

Have u noticed any sides apart from the slight water increase which is to b expected on d-bol anyway?

Your making very good progress mate, keep up the good work. Hope u achieve your goals.

MattyB


----------



## wicko69uk

Are you still getting pains in your shins now you've finished your first cycle samurai69??

making impressive gains btw


----------



## gary

I'm about 3 half weeks into my dbol cycle 30mg per day. No side effects not noticed any water retension. All my lifts are increasing nicely. Body weight increased by 9lb. Happy with the results at the moment but over the last 7 days i have noticed the biggest improvement


----------



## samurai691436114498

MattyB said:


> Have u noticed any shutdown?
> 
> Have u noticed any sides apart from the slight water increase which is to b expected on d-bol anyway?
> 
> Your making very good progress mate, keep up the good work. Hope u achieve your goals.
> 
> MattyB


Thanks

No sign of shutdown at all,

The water was minimal and poor technique/bravado probably started the back problem off



> Are you still getting pains in your shins now you've finished your first cycle


No, they pretty much stopped yesterday (3 days after)



> I'm about 3 half weeks into my dbol cycle 30mg per day. No side effects not noticed any water retension. All my lifts are increasing nicely. Body weight increased by 9lb. Happy with the results at the moment but over the last 7 days i have noticed the biggest improvement


I think for faster gains then, If its your first cycle you will see Bigger gains on a 6 - 8 week cycle of a higher dose (25 + mg), I think with the sides I was over critical and the slightest sign of change what so ever I noted down

My concern strength and size wise has been the reported losses afterwards (reduced by good pct)

Gary let me know how its going

I am going to continue on 14 on 14 off for two more cycles , to give it enough time, and the gains on the first have been good.

I do think a move to increase days on (rather than increasing mg) a bit longer may be advantageous (maybe cX's 25 x 17) or (21 on 21 off) possibly (21 on 14 off) as I was just really feeling the benefits when I stopped.

*^^^^^^(cookie, hackskii, biker etc what do you think of the three changes above, which do you think would be better) ^^^^^^*

But Its taken me 7+ years of training to get this far, I see no reason to

suddenly rush into short term strength/size gains, with more possible risks of shutdown / Acne / liver damage etc

I am sure the tinitis is nothing to do with AAs, I hade a problem before, which hasnt cleared properly, I am sure it will clear up with antibiotics, which i will take only after my third 14 day cycle is over


----------



## gary

Yes mate this is my first cycle. My recovery is better and i feel better within myself. My training partner commented that he as noticed that they are kicking in now. Now doing more reps on higher weight. Weight increase is steady. Generally put size on all over but my waist has dropped an inch which suits me.I will keep you informed mate.


----------



## hackskii

I think 14 days is a tad bit short.

I did a 30 day with D-bol, low dose @ 20 mg and noticed pretty good strenght gains.

Did notice a little shutdown tho.

Maybe the 17-25 day would avoid this.

14 days would be good for no shutdown but not that great for gains.

Longer cycles would be worse for shutdown but better for gains.

I guess finding that happy medium where you make some gains but minimising the shutdown would be best.

Cycling creatine here would be a good thing too.


----------



## samurai691436114498

hackskii said:


> I think 14 days is a tad bit short.
> 
> I did a 30 day with D-bol, low dose @ 20 mg and noticed pretty good strenght gains.
> 
> Did notice a little shutdown tho.
> 
> Maybe the 17-25 day would avoid this.
> 
> 14 days would be good for no shutdown but not that great for gains.
> 
> Longer cycles would be worse for shutdown but better for gains.
> 
> I guess finding that happy medium where you make some gains but minimising the shutdown would be best.
> 
> Cycling creatine here would be a good thing too.


well, the 14 days is working, but as i said it feels like its just kicking in then stops, if i go to long there is more shut down, so i will stick to the 14 on 14 off as i said earlier, for the next two cycles, then i am having a short break and will resume again so that i have a complete course again before xmas, this i think i will run longer

cX's is 25 on and 17 off, maybe i will move towards 21 on 14 off (more because its complete weeks and easier to work out in my head, but if i do that will 14 days between be enough? WHAT DO YOU THINK??

I am using creatine this one now all be it started a bit late

.


----------



## Biker

I'd rather take 3 weeks off between them mate, and I'll bet you'll need to up the dose each time you try it to get the same results.

I recently had someone take 40mg of dbol ED for 8 weeks and they gained 15lbs, they wanted to do the same again and on the seconds run only gained 4lbs.


----------



## Aftershock

Well Im doing a 25/17 right now and im on day 13, im pleased with the results so far. I think because you know the cycle is short you put EVERYTHING into it, whereas with longer cycles and longer ethers the tendency is to rest on your laurels a bit, and theses to much dead time waiting for drugs to kick in or ware off.

The real test is how well you hold the gains between cycles I suppose.


----------



## Biker

you should hold gains fairly well mate as most of what you gain should be real and not water etc and because you haven't fully shut down you should kick into recovery very quickly.

Personally on a 25/17 style cycle I wouldn't use test prop or tren ace after day 20 and would only run orals for the last 5 days.


----------



## Aftershock

I was going to stop the Jabs on day 21, which is 11 shots in total, otherwise ill be doing one shot on day 19 and one shot on day 20.

Actually I've been thinking about this, would it be a good idea to frontload the jabs doubling up the shots on day 1 so you reach peak concentration from day 1?

Or do a shot on days 1+2 and then go eod finishing on day 20.

Admittedly there's not a lot of dead time with short ethers, but it still takes about a week to reach peak concentrations if you assume the half life of prop or tren ace to be 2 days.

Frontloading and orals are usually an either or option, but with the cycle being so short, I feel it could be advantageous to do both together.

Good idea or am i spouting sh!t?


----------



## samurai691436114498

Biker said:


> I'd rather take 3 weeks off between them mate, and I'll bet you'll need to up the dose each time you try it to get the same results.
> 
> .


21 on 21 off ???

well i am hoping that for the first bit byt increasing the duration (upto 3 weeks) that will be enough then when that stops increase dosage gradually

but as Hack says there is a fine line between gains and shutdown:confused:


----------



## Biker

either 14 on 21 off or 21 on 21 off, or you could do the 25/17 method it isn't going to make any big difference IMHO.


----------



## Biker

Aftershock said:


> I was going to stop the Jabs on day 21, which is 11 shots in total, otherwise ill be doing one shot on day 19 and one shot on day 20.
> 
> Actually I've been thinking about this, would it be a good idea to frontload the jabs doubling up the shots on day 1 so you reach peak concentration from day 1?
> 
> Or do a shot on days 1+2 and then go eod finishing on day 20.
> 
> Admittedly there's not a lot of dead time with short ethers, but it still takes about a week to reach peak concentrations if you assume the half life of prop or tren ace to be 2 days.
> 
> Frontloading and orals are usually an either or option, but with the cycle being so short, I feel it could be advantageous to do both together.
> 
> Good idea or am i spouting sh!t?


 front loading would do no harm tbh you wouldn't want to it any more than a double shot on day 1.

If and this is where I think many go wrong, if you keep injecting with an ester based drug right up until day 25, and assuming it could take anything up to a week for you to clear you end up taking very little time off, and in truth you're not far off just being on all the time and I would suspect you would gradually become more shut down as you add cycles.

IMHO you want to be clean as a whistle on day 26 so the only way to be sure is to run in with orals only on the last 5 days.

actually reading that again I like "Or do a shot on days 1+2 and then go eod finishing on day 20."


----------



## JohnO

Aftershock, do you mind me asking how your cycle is planned out, is it ala Chefs exactly ie 25/17 then planned 25/25? With recomended gear?

What sort of gains you getting to date?


----------



## Aftershock

No its not exactly the same as Chefs, its based on Chefs and other short cycle info ive gleemed from all over the place. Im not following Chefs eating or training philosophies either. I am going 25/17 then 25/24 tho.

Currently Im doing

Dbol 50mg ed

NPP 100mg eod

Test Prop 50mg eod

Prov 50mg ed (For anti-aromatise and keeping the libedo going)

Clomid 10mg ed

Nova 5mg ed

Cabergoline 0.5mg every 4 days

CN pro-male 4 tabs a day (trib)

Everything under the prov im running for 32 days total.

Was initially concerned about potential libedo problems with the low test dose but with the prov and Cabergoline in there ive turned ito a sex maniac. Im considering droping the prov over the next day or so, and maybe reducing the dbol dosage to 35 mg because Its the first time I've done 50mg and im getting some wicked heaadaches.

Everything has kicked in very quickly and it all seems to be working in synergy with each other. Im close to my PB's in all my lifts and its only gona get better from here on in.

Gona run clen at 40mg ed post cycle as well as 4mil of Kyno ed.

Ill let you know how it goes... the next one will be

Tren 75mg eod

Test Prop 50mg eod

Var 100mg ed

plus clomid, nova, trib etc...

Thats the one im really looking forward to...


----------



## Cookie

> I think for faster gains then, If its your first cycle you will see Bigger gains on a 6 - 8 week cycle of a higher dose (25 + mg), I think with the sides I was over critical and the slightest sign of change what so ever I noted down


Bigger gains aint always better..imo..



> I do think a move to increase days on (rather than increasing mg) a bit longer may be advantageous (maybe cX's 25 x 17) or (21 on 21 off) possibly (21 on 14 off) as I was just really feeling the benefits when I stopped.


"If it aint broke dont fix it"

In fact I would also go as far as saying dont even think about fixing it as you will kid/fool yourself in to it not working and get less and less gains...



> 14 days would be good for no shutdown but not that great for gains.
> 
> Longer cycles would be worse for shutdown but better for gains.
> 
> I guess finding that happy medium where you make some gains but minimising the shutdown would be best.
> 
> Cycling creatine here would be a good thing too.


But thats always been my point/arguement about the 14 day courses you are never going to get any shutdown..unless of course you use ridiculous doses...and you still get gains...why use longer cycles and risk some shutdown..I say air on the side of caution and the gains will be consistent each and every cycle...



> well, the 14 days is working, but as i said it feels like its just kicking in then stops, if i go to long there is more shut down, so i will stick to the 14 on 14 off as i said earlier, for the next two cycles, then i am having a short break and will resume again so that i have a complete course again before xmas, this i think i will run longer
> 
> cX's is 25 on and 17 off, maybe i will move towards 21 on 14 off (more because its complete weeks and easier to work out in my head, but if i do that will 14 days between be enough? WHAT DO YOU THINK??


Dont run before you can walk...its woked and will keep working...your working with the body not against it..and your not on long enough to cause the body any cause for concern...homeostasis...



> I'd rather take 3 weeks off between them mate, and I'll bet you'll need to up the dose each time you try it to get the same results.
> 
> I recently had someone take 40mg of dbol ED for 8 weeks and they gained 15lbs, they wanted to do the same again and on the seconds run only gained 4lbs.


This has always been my biggest bugbear with regards to the way people cycle nowadays..they are always looking to get the same gains out of all cycles each and everytime instead of just cycling with the same dose etc and getting consitant gains all be it possibly smaller each time but gains all the same..thenwhen you dont gain anything then you change compounds or increase dosage slightly.....IMO..this is why people end up on too big a dose too soon..always chacing the bigger gains...slow,steady and consitant is the best way to go..imo... at 14 days on and 14 days off the cost of the gear is tiny even if at the end of each cycle you only keep 1-2lbs but added to the big picture over the year thats about 24 possible cycles at a gain of 24-48lbs in weight which in my book is impressive...


----------



## Biker

ONE SMART COOKIE said:


> This has always been my biggest bugbear with regards to the way people cycle nowadays..they are always looking to get the same gains out of all cycles each and everytime instead of just cycling with the same dose etc and getting consitant gains all be it possibly smaller each time but gains all the same..thenwhen you dont gain anything then you change compounds or increase dosage slightly.....IMO..this is why people end up on too big a dose too soon..always chacing the bigger gains...slow,steady and consitant is the best way to go..imo... at 14 days on and 14 days off the cost of the gear is tiny even if at the end of each cycle you only keep 1-2lbs but added to the big picture over the year thats about 24 possible cycles at a gain of 24-48lbs in weight which in my book is impressive...


and you're right that's how you start climbing the ladder although the example I gave was a fairly mild cycle in the first place. But generally it's best to stick with a dose until it yields no results, and even then you should look at diet etc to see if they may be at fault.

I gave the example more to let S69 know that it was unlikely his gains would continue with a dose as low as 15mg ED and I'm fairly confident it won't take long to exhaust that dose.


----------



## samurai691436114498

Biker said:


> I gave the example more to let S69 know that it was unlikely his gains would continue with a dose as low as 15mg ED and I'm fairly confident it won't take long to exhaust that dose.


I am not expecting miracles, and at some stage i realise gains will completely stop at this dose, when that happens i can either up the dose or the time on


----------



## Biker

Appreciated mate and you're being very sensible in your approach to it all IMHO.


----------



## DB

Biker said:


> Appreciated mate and you're being very sensible in your approach to it all IMHO.


bump that


----------



## Cookie

Biker said:


> and you're right that's how you start climbing the ladder although the example I gave was a fairly mild cycle in the first place. But generally it's best to stick with a dose until it yields no results, and even then you should look at diet etc to see if they may be at fault.
> 
> I gave the example more to let S69 know that it was unlikely his gains would continue with a dose as low as 15mg ED and I'm fairly confident it won't take long to exhaust that dose.


I agree too..looks like in a way were on the same wave lenght....

I think though that the 15mg dose will run for a lot longer than most people give it credit for and maybe even(just my own idea)that when it doesnt continue to yeild gains in the weight department(scales)it may still contribute to strength increases and best yet on a cellular level actual give a solidifying effect to the previous gains....



> I am not expecting miracles, and at some stage i realise gains will completely stop at this dose, when that happens i can either up the dose or the time on


Yopu just do what your told and no questions asked:gun: 

I would be more in favour of using a different compound atb the same dose just to see if its some sort of receptor shutdown to that particular compound and not dose related...


----------



## samurai691436114498

DB said:


> bump that


  what you after 

.


----------



## samurai691436114498

ONE SMART COOKIE said:


> Yopu just do what your told and no questions asked:gun:


:jerk:



ONE SMART COOKIE said:


> I would be more in favour of using a different compound at the same dose just to see if its some sort of receptor shutdown to that particular compound and not dose related...


No problems at the moment, so  , are you saying now or if/when there is a slow down/stop in gains.

.


----------



## Biker

ONE SMART COOKIE said:


> I agree too..looks like in a way were on the same wave lenght....


I think we are both often saying the same thing but from a different angle if that makes sense 

Yes I don't doubt that even after you stop seeing weight appear on the scales there will still be other benefits.

I do think 20 mg would be better as 2 doses of 10mg would probably be much more effective than 3 x 5mg...


----------



## samurai691436114498

Biker said:


> I think we are both often saying the same thing but from a different angle if that makes sense
> 
> Yes I don't doubt that even after you stop seeing weight appear on the scales there will still be other benefits.
> 
> I do think 20 mg would be better as 2 doses of 10mg would probably be much more effective than 3 x 5mg...


this cycle i have been taking 15 mg AM, next time i will try 3x5mg


----------



## Timmy Smooth

samurai69 said:


> this cycle i have been taking 15 mg AM, next time i will try 3x5mg


Yes, that would provide an interesting comparison. Good cycle diary, Paul, it's going to surpass mine!


----------



## Cookie

> I do think 20 mg would be better as 2 doses of 10mg would probably be much more effective than 3 x 5mg...


Now I would say diffo as like I have mentioned in the past...scott et al all grew like weeds on 10mg aday..

now I do have a theory why this happened but more of that at a later date....



> this cycle i have been taking 15 mg AM, next time i will try 3x5mg


I would stick with the 15mg AM till you stop gaining "THEN" change to 3x5mg and see if there are any differences...this then gives you another angle to get feedback from..


----------



## Biker

samurai69 said:


> this cycle i have been taking 15 mg AM, next time i will try 3x5mg


I think 3x 5mg would be poor mate, and I know people are going to knock me over even blood levels but I think 15mg at one go or 10mg in the morning and 5mg at night would be better than 3 x 5mg,

The thing about taking it all in the morning is that it will give a peak but then again recovery should be even less of a problem because you're really only having something active in your system for a max of about 8 hours, so all at once might actually be the best method for your wants.

My bad for not picking up on that.


----------



## Biker

ONE SMART COOKIE said:


> I would stick with the 15mg AM till you stop gaining "THEN" change to 3x5mg and see if there are any differences...this then gives you another angle to get feedback from..


you slipped that in just before my reply above, are you thinking the same reasons?


----------



## samurai691436114498

Timmy Smooth said:
 

> Yes, that would provide an interesting comparison. Good cycle diary, Paul, it's going to surpass mine!


I do honestly beleive the low dose thing, and wanted to make it as thurer (i really cant spell that word just tried 3 different spellings  ) as possible, so that people could see that gains are possible continuously on a relatively low dose cycle


----------



## samurai691436114498

Biker said:


> I think 3x 5mg would be poor mate, and I know people are going to knock me over even blood levels but I think 15mg at one go or 10mg in the morning and 5mg at night would be better than 3 x 5mg,
> 
> The thing about taking it all in the morning is that it will give a peak but then again recovery should be even less of a problem because you're really only having something active in your system for a max of about 8 hours, so all at once might actually be the best method for your wants.
> 
> My bad for not picking up on that.


That makes sense, will stick to 3 in the AM as its easier then also


----------



## Cookie

Biker said:


> you slipped that in just before my reply above, are you thinking the same reasons?


Possibly...I`ve always been curious about the right time medications(shall we say)should be taken to co inside with our natural bio rythms..now people have said that test leves are highest/lowest on a morning so going on that if they are say lowest on a morning and the dose is given will this stop the bodies natural production down quicker....if the test levels are at their peak in a morning then the body has already done its output for the day so they should in theory be no shutdown beacuse the dbol will be in and out before the body has had chance to know what hit it.....all theory mind you...


----------



## Timmy Smooth

Yes, I think it's very interesting using D-bol almost in a supplementary sense. One quick question - sorry if it's hijacking - it's my understanding the D-bol has androgenic properties. Does this mean that it has less of an effect on the HPTA system that an anabolic substance such as injectable test?

Sorry if it seems a naive question - my tangent is that if D-bol has a smaller impact on natural test production (at low doses), then I'd have thought there is a far greater potential for supplementary use.

Cheers.


----------



## Cookie

samurai69 said:


> I do honestly beleive the low dose thing, and wanted to make it as thurer (i really cant spell that word just tried 3 different spellings  ) as possible, so that people could see that gains are possible continuously on a relatively low dose cycle


I honestly beleive that anybody and I mean anybody can win shows/get big/huge on 1grm a week if all their cycles are done right from day one and they start off with this type of cycle(14 on 14 off etc)and gradually biuld from that over a number of years....


----------



## Biker

they are mate, I in the past used insane doses, then decided not to and dropped down to realtively low doses (still fairly high but total of all compounds about 700mg a week which was a lot less than before) still gained.

I tend to get people to start low but probably not as low as you have.

I hate seeing people using 3 products on their first cycle, another UK forum started a craze that a first cycle should be 500mg of Test, 400mg of deca and 50mg of dbol a week and you got laughed at for suggesting using any less! But then I also seen a mood on that forum suggest 750mg of sust a week to a first timer! madness!

In my eyes a first cycle should be dbol only or 250mg of test a week, just to see how it goes and in most cases if you don't gain you aren't eating well, or you may be one of the few with very high natural test levels.


----------



## Biker

ONE SMART COOKIE said:


> Possibly...I`ve always been curious about the right time medications(shall we say)should be taken to co inside with our natural bio rythms..now people have said that test leves are highest/lowest on a morning so going on that if they are say lowest on a morning and the dose is given will this stop the bodies natural production down quicker....if the test levels are at their peak in a morning then the body has already done its output for the day so they should in theory be no shutdown beacuse the dbol will be in and out before the body has had chance to know what hit it.....all theory mind you...


oh good man that's what I like to hear.

Well their will be production all day, but as you say it peaks in the morning, so in my eyes if doing a single dose the best time should be as it peaks, hence by the time the tabs are broken down it shouldn't effect your natural peak and should in fact cause an increase on your peak.

I still think in the long term it will cause some shutdown, but it is the method with the least effect on hpta.

your theory is much the same as my thoughts so we might just be right


----------



## Cookie

Timmy Smooth said:


> Yes, I think it's very interesting using D-bol almost in a supplementary sense. One quick question - sorry if it's hijacking - it's my understanding the D-bol has androgenic properties. Does this mean that it has less of an effect on the HPTA system that an anabolic substance such as injectable test?
> 
> Sorry if it seems a naive question - my tangent is that if D-bol has a smaller impact on natural test production (at low doses), then I'd have thought there is a far greater potential for supplementary use.
> 
> Cheers.


Dbol was actually released to the general public as a supplement for being underweight/malnutrition..it was just the bbing side of this sort of high jacked it..even though the weightlifting side used if first for supposably beating the russians at their own game...but I have a theory on that too:lift: for later


----------



## Biker

ONE SMART COOKIE said:


> I honestly beleive that anybody and I mean anybody can win shows/get big/huge on 1grm a week if all their cycles are done right from day one and they start off with this type of cycle(14 on 14 off etc)and gradually biuld from that over a number of years....


well small shows yes I would say you probably are right, I know a guy who regularly wins small shows and has never used more than 500mg of test a week, it my memory is correct with a little dbol, but he is of course and it won't surprise you to hear old school and now in the senior classes.

I also know a strongman who never uses more than 1g a week and he does well locally and gets into the BSM heats every year.


----------



## samurai691436114498

ONE SMART COOKIE said:


> even though the weightlifting side used if first for supposably beating the russians at their own game...but I have a theory on that too:lift: for later


LOOKING FORWARD TO THAT INSTALMENT


----------



## Biker

ONE SMART COOKIE said:


> Dbol was actually released to the general public as a supplement for being underweight/malnutrition..it was just the bbing side of this sort of high jacked it..even though the weightlifting side used if first for supposably beating the russians at their own game...but I have a theory on that too:lift: for later


was used for POW's as it's first main use I think.


----------



## Cookie

Biker said:


> oh good man that's what I like to hear.
> 
> Well their will be production all day, but as you say it peaks in the morning, so in my eyes if doing a single dose the best time should be as it peaks, hence by the time the tabs are broken down it shouldn't effect your natural peak and should in fact cause an increase on your peak.
> 
> I still think in the long term it will cause some shutdown, but it is the method with the least effect on hpta.
> 
> your theory is much the same as my thoughts so we might just be right


So then if the cycle "IS" kept short ie 14 days the shutdown should be soooo small that the body wont even notice it......

You could also get a little more technical with it all and actually add grapefruit juice to the mix for its liver blocking enzyme effect to see if more of the actual compound gets through so that the body will get the full dose not like say 10 or 12 mgs after the liver has tried to tear it apart....


----------



## Cookie

Biker said:


> was used for POW's as it's first main use I think.


I`ve heard that also but never read what compound or who actually made it..yet many a time I`ve read that it was zeigler(sp)that made the original dbol after the russians let slip that was what they were using to win all the golds at the olympic weighlifting meets so they used the old York Barbell team as guinea pigs to test it all out....This also leads to why Hoffman introduced one of his so called revolutionized programs to dicguice the fact that they were all on dbol....


----------



## hackskii

Well, i do agree with the fact that if you use the biggest dose in the morning you will have the least shutdown of the HPTA.

Now this is dose related.

Clearance time related.

Time on related.

Below is the bodys rise and fall of natural testosterone levels.

I feel that if you design your oral cycle around this you will be better off.

Lenth, dose, type of gear all play a factor for shutdown of the HPTA.


----------



## Biker

ONE SMART COOKIE said:


> So then if the cycle "IS" kept short ie 14 days the shutdown should be soooo small that the body wont even notice it......
> 
> You could also get a little more technical with it all and actually add grapefruit juice to the mix for its liver blocking enzyme effect to see if more of the actual compound gets through so that the body will get the full dose not like say 10 or 12 mgs after the liver has tried to tear it apart....


Agreed taking grapefruit would be an excellent idea.


----------



## Biker

interesting climbs from the middle of the night until early morning as I would have expected Scott, but I didn't expect that peak at 1 in the afternoon!


----------



## Cookie

Biker said:


> interesting climbs from the middle of the night until early morning as I would have expected Scott, but I didn't expect that peak at 1 in the afternoon!


Looks like S69 is gonna have to get up at 4 am to really take advantage of the climbs..lmao...

But then again this also ties in with some other stuff I have read in the past with regards to a lot of the opld timers in that 90% of them would always workout as early as possible before work etc sooooo maybe instinctively they actually knew this but scientifically diddnt know the reason why training at this early hr produced gains......

Now tying all that in with regards to they only seemed to use 10-20mg dbol a day(dbol being sold in 5,10,50mg tab ranges)nobody has ever said actually when they took their pills so they could have been taking them straight after a workout with their breakfast so doing what we are actually saying and tieing together scientifically.....

HAHAHAHAHA I think I`ve just discovered the lost secrets of the ancients....gonna have to copyright this....lmho


----------



## samurai691436114498

ONE SMART COOKIE said:


> Looks like S69 is gonna have to get up at 4 am to really take advantage of the climbs..lmao...


I am up at 5:30 most days so thats close enough 



ONE SMART COOKIE said:


> But then again this also ties in with some other stuff I have read in the past with regards to a lot of the opld timers in that 90% of them would always workout as early as possible before work etc sooooo maybe instinctively they actually knew this but scientifically diddnt know the reason why training at this early hr produced gains......


All the stuff you read about old timers ie Huge steaks -creatine, gallons of milk - protein etc, its all instinctive and is being proved scientifically now :smoke:

#


----------



## Biker

I'm not sure OSC I think about 7-8 would be the best time to take it just to make sure the natural ramp up takes place, taking at 4 may interfere with it... but as you know this is little more than guess work and I could be wrong 

So say get up at 6 workout then take your pills.


----------



## firemansam

Very interesting read gents.

S69 how much cardio are you doing at the moment mate?

I was just curious as i have a half marathon coming up (helping a mate out, he needs a training partner) and as a few of the guy's know, i was looking to do a small cycle to stop myself going catabolic with all the running training.I will still continue with the weights but the cardio will be quiet high.So I wouldn't expect great gains in weight but it would hopefully hold onto some weight.

Good work on the journal.


----------



## samurai691436114498

firemansam said:


> Very interesting read gents.
> 
> S69 how much cardio are you doing at the moment mate?
> 
> I was just curious as i have a half marathon coming up (helping a mate out, he needs a training partner) and as a few of the guy's know, i was looking to do a small cycle to stop myself going catabolic with all the running training.I will still continue with the weights but the cardio will be quiet high.So I wouldn't expect great gains in weight but it would hopefully hold onto some weight.
> 
> Good work on the journal.


I am doing a little bit of cycling and a few walking sessions, but whilst i was on cycle i got some shin pain (like the pump is too much in the tibialis anterior muscle sheath), It hasnt been so bad since. Sprinting through a game of lacrosse was ok last week, and no shortness of breath during the game apart from the normal  ),

I am sure it would help you hold on to the weight


----------



## firemansam

Need to sort a few little things out but I will start this very soon I am sure. Will maybe give people another view with me doing the increased cardio. Not trying to hijack this mate just giving people another set of results (could even post training and progress in another thread if that is easier)

Cheers mate


----------



## samurai691436114498

firemansam said:


> Need to sort a few little things out but I will start this very soon I am sure. Will maybe give people another view with me doing the increased cardio. Not trying to hijack this mate just giving people another set of results (could even post training and progress in another thread if that is easier)
> 
> Cheers mate


No problem with me either way mate, would be interested to see how yours is going with increased cardio


----------



## firemansam

Cheers. Will let you know when I am starting


----------



## Cookie

Biker said:


> I'm not sure OSC I think about 7-8 would be the best time to take it just to make sure the natural ramp up takes place, taking at 4 may interfere with it... but as you know this is little more than guess work and I could be wrong
> 
> So say get up at 6 workout then take your pills.


Well the reason being I was hoping that the very early dose could work in synergy with the natural peak at 7 or 8 plus trying to work in the amount of time it would take the dbol to be metabolised and get into the blood stream and do its stuff and then it could naturally taper backdown agin with the bodies natural taper and the body intheory should be none na wiser...all theory mind you..



> All the stuff you read about old timers ie Huge steaks -creatine, gallons of milk - protein etc, its all instinctive and is being proved scientifically now :smoke:


Thats alwys been another one of my points..why the hell do we need to have scientific back up these days before people will try it....if people would only listen to their inner selves they would get all the answers a heck of a lot quicker than they realise......


----------



## Biker

ONE SMART COOKIE said:


> Well the reason being I was hoping that the very early dose could work in synergy with the natural peak at 7 or 8 plus trying to work in the amount of time it would take the dbol to be metabolised and get into the blood stream and do its stuff and then it could naturally taper backdown agin with the bodies natural taper and the body intheory should be none na wiser...all theory mind you..
> 
> ...


but if using grapefruit etc I wonder how quickly they'll enter the system, it's a hard to know exactly what time and the reality probably is that anytime between 5-8 is probably close enough to not make much difference.


----------



## Cookie

Biker said:


> but if using grapefruit etc I wonder how quickly they'll enter the system, it's a hard to know exactly what time and the reality probably is that anytime between 5-8 is probably close enough to not make much difference.


Agree....I think the average time would be about 1-2hrs and the drug should be working its way through the system....the grapefruit wouldnt speed up entry of the drug just increase what actually gets through by reducing the livers production of p450 which breaksdown and destroys foreign bodies going into the system....

Anyway I think this should be a sticky too much good info here to let it disappear.................


----------



## hackskii

Maybe the levels are low when you first go to bed because HGH is high at that moment.

Maybe the Testosterone spikes at 7:00 or around morning time for a reason.

Maybe this high time was for hunting in the morning breaking the resting fast (sleep).

Bridging is built on the morning time dose to help eliminate the shutdown but still use to get some benefit.

just a thought.


----------



## JohnO

hackskii said:


> Well, i do agree with the fact that if you use the biggest dose in the morning you will have the least shutdown of the HPTA.
> 
> Now this is dose related.
> 
> Clearance time related.
> 
> Time on related.
> 
> Below is the bodys rise and fall of natural testosterone levels.
> 
> I feel that if you design your oral cycle around this you will be better off.
> 
> Lenth, dose, type of gear all play a factor for shutdown of the HPTA.


So most of us training after work circa 5-7 are training when our natural test is at its lowest for the day? Correct?


----------



## hackskii

Probably but remember lifting weights raise natural test levels too.

Especially the deadlifts and squats.


----------



## samurai691436114498

ONE SMART COOKIE said:


> *Anyway I think this should be a sticky too much good info here to let it disappear.................*


its all good info.

Just had a look for grapefruit juice and they dont sell it here, they also dont seem to be available at the moment (or are not cheap) so fresh squeezed is not a choice, will keep looking though


----------



## Cookie

samurai69 said:


> its all good info.
> 
> Just had a look for grapefruit juice and they dont sell it here, they also dont seem to be available at the moment (or are not cheap) so fresh squeezed is not a choice, will keep looking though


Not paramount that you use the grapefruit its just on of those little tweaking things that can be used to see if any more gains can be made without having to increase dosage..


----------



## samurai691436114498

ONE SMART COOKIE said:


> Not paramount that you use the grapefruit its just on of those little tweaking things that can be used to see if any more gains can be made without having to increase dosage..


I realised that, just would have been nice to give it a try, will keep looking for GF juice anyway


----------



## fits

SO what are S69 can you give a quick update so for? how long you been doing this course? what effects/differences have you noticed this far?


----------



## Cookie

samurai69 said:


> I realised that, just would have been nice to give it a try, will keep looking for GF juice anyway


I`m sure there is something else that`ll increase absorbtion but it escapes me for now....gonna have to do a bit of reading and see if I can find it....

I also used to dissolve halotestin tabs under my tongue to improve delivery through the muccus glands...never tried it with dbol so cant say for sure if it would work on them....also the idea of putting them under the tongue was to reduce sides from the dbol as it was supposed to go straight into the system buccally rather than through the liver(twice)orally.......


----------



## hackskii

Cayenne is used to strengthen the effects of other herbs.

It is commonly used along with other herbs to enhance them.

Cayenne increases circulation to every organ in the body.

Putting something under the tongue (Sublingual gland) is common for trying to get the best bang for your buck.

Nitrogen tablets for heart patents commonly use this Sublingual method.

Many herbal preperations use the Sublingual too, mostly extracts, DHEA is advised to use this method too but that stuff tasts really nasty.


----------



## samurai691436114498

fits said:


> SO what are S69 can you give a quick update so for? how long you been doing this course? what effects/differences have you noticed this far?


2 weeks on and weight gain of 2 -2.5 kg, 7 days into off period and weigth is still hovering at the +2 mark, strength has not dropped at all

Will re weigh properly before re-start and then after 14 day cycle

7 more days and then restart, I may try chewing as the apex are sweetened, never could suck the old rowntrees so sticking under tounge is going to be difficult 

I would like to increase shoulder press to the 45 kg dumbells (99 lbs) for a couple of reps for that cycle :lift:


----------



## samurai691436114498

Second week of recovery phase.

Supprisingly no drop in strength even managed a slight increase in BB shoulder press and Shrug, weight is fluctuating around 90 - 91 kg so no real drop in weight either (diet had been a bit poor towards the end of last week as well).

Looking forward to restarting (woo hoo! for the 4th of july)

Tuesday second week of recovery phase

Back

only started doing these last week, added another 10 kg (bodyweight plus 30 kg)

V bar pull downs went up 5kg aswell

   weight still hovering slightly above 90 kg still up 1.5 kg (3.3 lbs) feel a bit tighter round the middle.

:lift:

.


----------



## samurai691436114498

Wednesday (only 4 more days)

Chest today and managed a 2.5 kg increase on bench press and did about a 6 inch rck press at 220 kg for three.

got to incline dumbell presses at 50 kg and managed 3 sets of 8, but was a bit more of a struggle (maybe because of the previous 2 exercises)

so strength gains still up and climbing (am still amazed at the increases ??????????)

Thursday, legs.

First time doing fairly heavy squats for a while (used knee wraps), managed 160 kg for 5 going down to just parrallel, 120 felt easy for 8 reps, so leg strength is maintaine (probably slightly up really)


----------



## samurai691436114498

I feel very slightly down on strength today and yesterday (still managed the same weights or very slight improvement) but my thinking is to change the time on time off.

I am now on my 11th day off and feel like i want to start again, so i am leaning towards a possible off time of 12 days, I also feel that time on was just too short at 14 days and I think I would possible get more benefit running upto another 3 days (17 days on).

17 days on 12 days off --- would like to hear your thoughts on that, still at a 15mg per day dose.

I am going to stick with 14 on 14 off for the next two short cycles (july and august), but after a slightly longer rest may try the 17/12 cycle


----------



## hackskii

I did a 17 day winstrol cycle @ only 50mg and I didnt get any shutdown I can notice. Although I didnt like the gains either, 50 mg of winstrol seemed only to keep me a bit harder.

I think 17 on and 14 off sounds pretty good tho.

The only thing I did notice was a slight less desire to have sex. So maybe their was a slight shutdown.


----------



## Cookie

samurai69 said:


> I feel very slightly down on strength today and yesterday (still managed the same weights or very slight improvement) but my thinking is to change the time on time off.
> 
> I am now on my 11th day off and feel like i want to start again, so i am leaning towards a possible off time of 12 days, I also feel that time on was just too short at 14 days and I think I would possible get more benefit running upto another 3 days (17 days on).
> 
> 17 days on 12 days off --- would like to hear your thoughts on that, still at a 15mg per day dose.
> 
> I am going to stick with 14 on 14 off for the next two short cycles (july and august), but after a slightly longer rest may try the 17/12 cycle


Dont mess with a proven formula you`ve proved that already..your doing a typicalbber/roid head thing "IF ONE IS WORKING 2 WILL BE EVEN BETTER"

You`ve just said you felt a very slight improvement...so why fuc£ing change and after 11 off your still over 3lbs up..how many others do you know that can say that??????

The longer your on the longer you have to be off to allow the body to reset itself hormonally and the more chance you`ll have of some or more shutdown..with the 14 days I bet you havent shutdwon a single bit...

Stick with 14 on 14 off for the rest of the year and I bet your up 14+lbs by christmas and you`ll also prove to a lot of newbie drug users that they dont have to shovel sh!tloads of gear down them to get results.....that alone is worth a 1000 words of praise..........


----------



## samurai691436114498

ONE SMART COOKIE said:


> Dont mess with a proven formula you`ve proved that already..your doing a typicalbber/roid head thing "IF ONE IS WORKING 2 WILL BE EVEN BETTER"
> 
> You`ve just said you felt a very slight improvement...so why fuc£ing change and after 11 off your still over 3lbs up..how many others do you know that can say that??????
> 
> The longer your on the longer you have to be off to allow the body to reset itself hormonally and the more chance you`ll have of some or more shutdown..with the 14 days I bet you havent shutdwon a single bit...
> 
> Stick with 14 on 14 off for the rest of the year and I bet your up 14+lbs by christmas and you`ll also prove to a lot of newbie drug users that they dont have to shovel sh!tloads of gear down them to get results.....that alone is worth a 1000 words of praise..........


*I know what you are saying, I am just thinking about refining things a bit.*



ONE SMART COOKIE said:


> Stick with 14 on 14 off for the rest of the year and I bet your up 14+lbs by christmas and you`ll also prove to a lot of newbie drug users that they dont have to shovel sh!tloads of gear down them to get results.....that alone is worth a 1000 words of praise..........


*That last bit is very true, but will they pay attention*


----------



## Aftershock

Cant see any point in attempting to fix what isnt broken, besides theres only 3 days left and you'll be back on


----------



## Cookie

> I know what you are saying, I am just thinking about refining things a bit.


Dont think just do......

Take a look at my signature and that says it all............so many fall into that trap...

Just keep going with what your doing and try to squeeze every last drop of weight out of each cycle till you can get no more THEN WE`LL TWEAK IT to get the gains coming again.....

I think you`ll get atleast 6 cycles out of that system till it needs changing and by then you could be up at least 10lbs in bodyweight and 10lbs that your keeping aswell not loosing post cycle.....



> *
> **That last bit is very true, but will they pay attention*


If they dont pay attention then that`ll prove another theory I have that bbers are getting more and more stupid,thicker and reckless as time goes by.....


----------



## JohnO

I think you need to stay with it Samurai, remember what you set out to do - try a 14on14off oral cycle.

I would go for the second 14 days on and off and see how you feel at the end of this and how your gains have come in this period.

Good luck mate and keep at it


----------



## samurai691436114498

Ok Ok, no tweaks


----------



## samurai691436114498

Weighed in this morning (normal time after bodilyfunctions etc) and i weigh just over the 90kg (198 lbs) (not quite 90.5). up from 88.5kg (194.5 lbs) *3.5 lbs up* so I am happy with that.

Trained deadlifts today and its the only day this week i didnt manage a weight increase, I was out late last night, so maybe that had a bearing on it.


----------



## samurai691436114498

First day back on the d-bol, was going to try sucking them, but at that time of morning its easier just to swallow them.

Managed another very slight increase on shoulder presses and shrugs.


----------



## fits

nice to hear the increases are stil comming, keep up the good work, and side that you have noticed?


----------



## Stevo1436114499

I have been sorting out a first cycle of Test Enan & Dianabol.....But after reading through this little lot....seriously thinking of just trying a dianabol on and off cycle...Think it would also suit my lifestyle better at mo..........Especialy if i can keep getting gains without a big shutdown....like yourself S69.....

Excellent post....especially as you are proof at the mo its working without big dosages...

Do you think or any comments about you looking any bigger yourself yet ???


----------



## samurai691436114498

Stevo said:


> I have been sorting out a first cycle of Test Enan & Dianabol.....But after reading through this little lot....seriously thinking of just trying a dianabol on and off cycle...Think it would also suit my lifestyle better at mo..........Especialy if i can keep getting gains without a big shutdown....like yourself S69.....
> 
> Excellent post....especially as you are proof at the mo its working without big dosages...
> 
> Do you think or any comments about you looking any bigger yourself yet ???


Its the start of my second part, I look tighter and shape is better, no noticable size, but i never think i look that big.

Its definately worth giving this a try as a first cycle, there was no sign of shutdown at all last month.

As cookie and biker have been saying its not fast and furious, but slow and steady and I am more than happy at the moment.

So, go for it and hope it works as well for you as its doing for me


----------



## fits

no shut down eh? good to hear, how much muscle do you think you have added? i know its early days yet and probably hard to tell exactly.

I think a cycle like this is definately worth a go, you can always up it if things are not working, start small then add if needed ratherthan diving straight in with big doses!

good luck mate keep itup and keep us informed


----------



## samurai691436114498

fits said:


> how much muscle do you think you have added? i know its early days yet and probably hard to tell exactly.


Its difficult to say, I think i look leaner round the waist., so would be nice to think its all muscle



fits said:


> I think a cycle like this is definately worth a go, you can always up it if things are not working, start small then add if needed ratherthan diving straight in with big doses!


That was my thinking when i started, the thought once it was woking was to up it for a faster gain, but I am being pacient and i am sure it is the right way, Cookie said earlier in the thread that he reckoned i could run this upto christmas and possibly further and still make gains. Then when the gains stop then change it about a bit, so thats what i plan to do



fits said:


> good luck mate keep itup and keep us informed


Cheers mate will definately keep this going


----------



## samurai691436114498

Quick question, when would be the best time to take antibiotics on this cycle, during the D-bol phase or during the off time, I have an ear infection that will be cleared up with a short course antibiotic, so if its better in the off period, I can wait another week or so.  

Trained chest today, was a slight increase on bench press, but had to drop reps. Increased reps on dumbell incline presses. Felt a good chest pump, infact chest back and shoulders all feel a bit tight


----------



## hackskii

I would take some lactobacillus acidophilus with your d-bol.

This will strengthen the immune system and keep your bad bacteria in check.

I was under the impression that ear infections clear up on their own.

But if you have an ear infection that wont go away then you can PM me for the over the counter verson of boosting your own immune system using herbs to aid in fighting the infection.

It is in a book at home and I dont have it with me at the moment.


----------



## hackskii

*As promised&#8230;*

With middle ear infections, the recommendation is to wait a few days before taking an antibiotic, and in many cases to use no antibiotic at all. Scientists have recently established a link between an allergy to dairy products and recurrent ear infections. This possibility should be checked before using an antibiotic.

Others seem to think it is from high protein diet.....Go figure?

Using antibiotics in the treatment of earache can predispose the patient to recurrent ear infections. Especially with multiresistant bacteria. For example, children treated with amoxicillin have been shown to be tow to eight times more likely to develop a recurrent infection.

Supplemental therapy:

Echinacea

Nutribiotic grapefruit extract

Mix one OZ white vinegar with 1 oz isopropyl alcohol and rinse three times a day.

Chew xylitol gum to open swollen ear canals

Mullen oil or Mullen garlic ear drops, or turtle island warm ear oil drops or a St. Johns Wart oil drops.

Other drops can include Hydrogen Pyroxide.

Take garlic tabs 4 times a day.

To enhance immune system take liquid chlorophyll three times a day.

Vitamin C 500 mgs for each year of age.

Acidophilus powder or what ever you can get your hands on.

Homeopathic remedies

Chamomilla for irritability

Pulsatilla for mucous

Belladonna for throbbing

Aconite for sudden onset

For excessive ear wax 3 drops of warm olive oil to soften ear wax, flush with syringe of warm water.

Ear candles are good too

Nutritional allergies include

Ellimanate wheat, MSG, food additives, preservatives like sulfides.

Cut back on dairy foods and sugar.

For pain use ice instead of heat.

Onion poultice for pain relief.

Use the onion juice in a cotton swab and place in ear.

Vitamin E oil is good too in the ear.


----------



## samurai691436114498

Cheers for the info hacks.

Yesterday did squats again and managed a 10 kg increase on last week, felt like i could do more but still dont want to hurt knee or hamstring.

Today (friday 8th), felt like it all kicked in during tricep part od workout, managed some good weight and some intense increases in reps on d-bell extensions.

Feeling lower back pumping up quickly, but will really see how that is tomorrow when deadlifting.

Also getting the compartmental syndrome in the anterior tibialis like last time, it eases when i stop walking fast.

Water consumption is still about 3 litres plus other fluids and fizzy water, which would probably bring things up to 5 or 6 litres

Weight is fluctuating between 91.5 kg and 94kg, but definately look more shaped, which is good. 

:lift: :lift:


----------



## samurai691436114498

Deadlifts today, pumped out 20 reps with 80kg then moved up to a 1rm (pb) 225 kg, it came up easier than expected.

Lower back feels tight still, would nolva help with this (anti e and water loss) or should i wait another week and suffer a bit?


----------



## Cookie

> Lower back feels tight still, would nolva help with this (anti e and water loss) or should i wait another week and suffer a bit?


I`m suprised your suffering so much with water retention on such a low dose....Try having 5 teaspoons of glycerine in 1/2pint of warm water just before bed and see if this helps shift some water...if not up it a teaspoon a night till you get to 10 teaspoons max in 1 pint warm water...should do the trick...


----------



## winger

Here is a natural Diuretic.

Dandelion Root - Herbal Diuretic is helpful for edema - swollen ankles and feet - and high blood pressure.

Dandelion root and leaf are widely used in herbal medicines throughout Europe. The leaves are diuretic but also very high in potassium, so they help to compensate for potassium lost with increased urination. Another of nature's perfect plans.

The bitter compounds in dandelion root help stimulate digestion and are mildly laxative in activity. The roots have been shown to be moderately anti-inflammatory, which supports their traditional use in the treatment of rheumatism.

For centuries, dandelion root has been regarded as an effective, gentle laxative. The roots and leaves are most often used to treat liver conditions such as jaundice and hepatitis, and to encourage normal digestion. The yellow flower also contains beneficial compounds. In fact, all parts of the plant have high concentrations of vitamin A, as well as choline, a B vitamin that stimulates the liver. Dandelion is even being explored as a treatment for cancer and other conditions.


----------



## samurai691436114498

ONE SMART COOKIE said:


> I`m suprised your suffering so much with water retention on such a low dose....Try having 5 teaspoons of glycerine in 1/2pint of warm water just before bed and see if this helps shift some water...if not up it a teaspoon a night till you get to 10 teaspoons max in 1 pint warm water...should do the trick...


Not sure its really water retention, no visible sign, just a dull ache in the lower back that flares up quite quickly after walking or exercising for a short time


----------



## hackskii

Could be a little kidney infection too.

Is your urine normal or foamy, dark?

I dont think nolva helps water retention but a-dex does.


----------



## samurai691436114498

Clear as water


----------



## hackskii

Ok then stretch your lower back out.

Relax,

Listen to some music that is your favorite (soft).

Stretch and breathe, you will be good in a week,,,,,,I promice......

It will take s certain kindof TLC......most people wont do that.....


----------



## samurai691436114498

Back doesnt seem too bad today, off to quack about ear (hopefully) so will not take todays SUPP, depends what time i get back as to wether i will take it at all today


----------



## samurai691436114498

Took 15mg at 4 oc better late than not at all


----------



## samurai691436114498

Back to normal today, had a good shoulder workout still increasing reps or weights. looking fuller and weight is up 1 to 1.5 kg (even with bad diet over this weekend)


----------



## samurai691436114498

Weights still ok, no weigth or rep increases on back today, but have hade some good increases recently, felt a bit light headed in gym today, but temperatures are high in and out of the gym so put it down to heat.

No lreal ower back pain so far this week, may give lower back a miss tonight and just do some ab work

Just took some measurments and there are definately some increases.


----------



## winger

samurai69 said:


> felt a bit light headed in gym today


Could be low blood sugar or maybe not enough water.


----------



## samurai691436114498

Usually pretty good, plenty of liquid before and during, also had breakfast only 1 1/2 hours before then a pre workout drink.

Temp was hitting mid 80s when i walked to gym and AC wasnt working well in gym, so i still reckon it was heat this time


----------



## Old Man GABA

I had the same lower back pain as you samurai69 on 20mg ED

made mowing the lawn or even bending over the sink to wash my hair a real pain,

500mg of ibuprofen EOD sorted it for me.


----------



## samurai691436114498

Old Man GABA said:


> I had the same lower back pain as you samurai69 on 20mg ED
> 
> made mowing the lawn or even bending over the sink to wash my hair a real pain,
> 
> 500mg of ibuprofen EOD sorted it for me.


Cheers, I will try that, I am moving house soon and could do without any major back pump


----------



## hackskii

But ibuprofen is hard on the liver.

There are natural anti-inflamitories like fish oils, cayenne, Turmeric (Curcuma longa), Ginger, Boswellin.

These are safer too.

There are more if you give me a PM and let me get home to my books then I can help more.

My best book got borrowed and it will be some time before she gives it back


----------



## samurai691436114498

bump


----------



## hackskii

hackskii said:


> But ibuprofen is hard on the liver.
> 
> There are natural anti-inflamitories like fish oils, cayenne, Turmeric (Curcuma longa), Ginger, Boswellin.
> 
> These are safer too.
> 
> There are more if you give me a PM and let me get home to my books then I can help more.
> 
> My best book got borrowed and it will be some time before she gives it back


Adding to this

Barley green is a good anti-inflammatory agent.

Also eat a lot of pineapple as bromelain is a natural anti-inflammatory that also speeds healing.

Ice every 4 hours or a cold (wet) compress.

Black cherry juice is a popular folk remedy for arthritus (2) eight ounce glasses a day.

Massage or stroking the muscle near the affected joint. Dont massage the joint itself.

10-15 minutes.

EPA or eicosapentaenoic acid helps to reduce inflammation by stimulating the production of prostaglandins.

500-1000 mg of Vitamin C.

Suger makes arthritis worse or joint stiffness.

Iron supplements can cause pain and swelling.

Magnetic thearpy is good.

Cayenne can be made into a paste too and applied to the effected area.


----------



## samurai691436114498

Thanks for that Hacks

The cherry thing looks good, we have a drink here made from cherries, called ginjinha (18% vol) will that do   .

I weighed in today at 93kg (204.5lbs) which is up a bit, someone asked me if i had lost some weight yesterday which is a good thing as it means i have probably lost some BF, I definately look better rear delts show now, slightly more definition on the abs etc

Strength is still going up (all be it slightly) and where weight is not going up, reps are jumping considerably

Coming to the end of second 14 day cycle only 2 more days left and no sign of shutdown, infact balls feel fuller  ........

I have no sign of itchy nipples this time so will probably not take any nolva.

I have creatine, on time this time, so will only start taking it at the start of my 14 day off cycle (5 grams per day.... no loading dose).

off to do arms now, triceps have actually seen the best continual strength gains, biceps have increased, but the dumbells jump 10 lbs at this level and I have probably jumped too quickly and too much with the barbell stuff i have been doing.

Yesterdays workout was legs, managed a 10kg jump on squats......took everything else fairly light as i do not want to damage my now healing hamstring


----------



## fits

sounds like its going well mate!!!! can you sumerise the differences up to now from the start for us so we can use it as a reference??

keep it up mate sounds like yourdoing well!!!


----------



## samurai691436114498

fits said:


> sounds like its going well mate!!!! can you sumerise the differences up to now from the start for us so we can use it as a reference??
> 
> keep it up mate sounds like yourdoing well!!!


Will do, on sunday with weigh in etc


----------



## samurai691436114498

samurai69 said:


> Weighed in this morning (normal time after bodilyfunctions etc) and i weigh just over the 90kg (198 lbs) (not quite 90.5). up from 88.5kg (194.5 lbs) *3.5 lbs up* so I am happy with that.
> 
> Trained deadlifts today and its the only day this week i didnt manage a weight increase, I was out late last night, so maybe that had a bearing on it.


Last day of second cycle and just weighed in at 93kg (204.6 lbs), so in 6 weeks i have gained 4.5kg (10lbs). *I have to say I dont look or feel that much heavier*

Thats on a *total of only 140mg of d-bol*, people are taking that amount in 3 days.

I look more muscular, there is no puffines, i am pretty sure i have lost BF aswell.

There have been no sides apart from the lower back pumping up quickly (its not back pain as such just massive tightness). No signs of shutdown and no itchy nipple this time.

Weight on all lifts has increased except were the jump has been too much and in those cases the reps have gone up considerably.

So over the next 14 days i will continue training the same and eating well and will be supplementing with creatine.

I am moving house towards the end of this 14 day off cycle or the begining of the next 14 day d-bol cycle and this is sure to affect training somwhat,

The gym i train at also has funny hours during august and this may also affect training a bit.

I will not post up stats or pics until either the end of my next 14 day cycle or possibly 14 days after that (which would allow for water loss as well - and would be a truer indication of size gains).

Will keep you all posted 

:lift:


----------



## Cookie

samurai69 said:


> Last day of second cycle and just weighed in at 93kg (204.6 lbs), so in 6 weeks i have gained 4.5kg (10lbs). *I have to say I dont look or feel that much heavier*
> 
> Thats on a *total of only 140mg of d-bol*, people are taking that amount in 3 days.
> 
> I look more muscular, there is no puffines, i am pretty sure i have lost BF aswell.
> 
> There have been no sides apart from the lower back pumping up quickly (its not back pain as such just massive tightness). No signs of shutdown and no itchy nipple this time.
> 
> Weight on all lifts has increased except were the jump has been too much and in those cases the reps have gone up considerably.
> 
> So over the next 14 days i will continue training the same and eating well and will be supplementing with creatine.
> 
> I am moving house towards the end of this 14 day off cycle or the begining of the next 14 day d-bol cycle and this is sure to affect training somwhat,
> 
> The gym i train at also has funny hours during august and this may also affect training a bit.
> 
> I will not post up stats or pics until either the end of my next 14 day cycle or possibly 14 days after that (which would allow for water loss as well - and would be a truer indication of size gains).
> 
> Will keep you all posted
> 
> :lift:


Told ya it would work and keep working(insert massive smug grin & pat on the back) 

I would be interested though in seeing your diet and full training routine together..simply because with a couple tweaks here and there your gains could be doubled:eek: imho and more than likely continue to get leaner  :lift: :spammer:


----------



## fits

Nice one S69, thanks for keeping us posted, all going well.

It woudl be good to see your diet and training, any chance?

And cookie, are you going to share the tweaks with all of as?


----------



## samurai691436114498

ONE SMART COOKIE said:


> Told ya it would work and keep working(insert massive smug grin & pat on the back)
> 
> I would be interested though in seeing your diet and full training routine together..simply because with a couple tweaks here and there your gains could be doubled:eek: imho and more than likely continue to get leaner  :lift: :spammer:


I will post up a diet and workout proper once i have moved and sorted myself out..................maybe we could look at tweaking things for the cycle running up to christmas............that would get the move out the way and also we have people over so will be very loose on the diet through to the end of august

So maybe we can sort it for the september start 

Also, taking 5g creatine per day with no loading dose, is that right??

.


----------



## Cookie

fits said:


> And cookie, are you going to share the tweaks with all of as?


Maybe depends on what mood I`m in when I get outta bed:axe: lol



> Also, taking 5g creatine per day with no loading dose, is that right??


Yepper


----------



## samurai691436114498

If you go to www.bodygain.com i have all my training on there from about christmas time name there is PROMETHEUS, you can track weights reps everything  .

Diet is a bit more difficult when sorted in a few weeks will try to lay it out, moving towards an old time style diet , but need to get it sorted a bit


----------



## winger

Or click here.


----------



## samurai691436114498

cheers winger


----------



## hackskii

Hey you got a slim waist.

I would hit the quads a bit more tho..........

You look pretty good for being basically natural.

Nice samauri tatoo...do you do martial arts?


----------



## samurai691436114498

hackskii said:


> Hey you got a slim waist.
> 
> I would hit the quads a bit more tho..........
> 
> You look pretty good for being basically natural.
> 
> Nice samauri tatoo...do you do martial arts?


Waist doesnt feel that slim abs show but look chunky from the side

Quite strong in the legs but they struggle to grow, most of the muscle is high up with long tendons plus hamstring injury has held back a bit but you are right QUADS NEED TO GROW

Yep martial arts I teach Aikido (shin shin toitsu) Iado (sword drawing) Jo do, have also trained in wing chun and shantung black tiger (sounds better than it is) and Muay Thai and dabbled with other MAs over the years


----------



## hackskii

Oh cool on the martial arts. I hope I never meet up with you when you are upset

I thought the waist looked kindof trim myself.


----------



## samurai691436114498

hackskii said:


> I hope I never meet up with you when you are upset


Aikido is purely a defensive art  , most of the time



hackskii said:


> Oh cool on the martial arts. I hope I never meet up with you when you are upset


This coming from a guy that posts up pics of guns and stuff :crazy:



hackskii said:


> I thought the waist looked kindof trim myself.


Its still 35" or 36", but hey its  .

third day off cycle, worked chest and no drop in strength today (increased reps where weight was to big a jump) yesterday (back) must have just been a bad day as it was really hard going (weight was still ok)


----------



## Cookie

> third day off cycle, worked chest and no drop in strength today (increased reps where weight was to big a jump) yesterday (back) must have just been a bad day as it was really hard going (weight was still ok)


In all honesty I cant see you loosing any strength from any cycle you do as you wont be bloating up with water because the dose will be working with your body not "FORCING" your body to grow......

Time will tell if I am right on this one............

Keep up the good work..


----------



## samurai691436114498

ONE SMART COOKIE said:


> In all honesty I cant see you loosing any strength from any cycle you do as you wont be bloating up with water because the dose will be working with your body not "FORCING" your body to grow......
> 
> Time will tell if I am right on this one............
> 
> Keep up the good work..


Sure  , just letting anyone that reads this know whats what.......the intensity of training is still there............Its the lower back that is playing up, not when i train, but whilst i am packing and hauling boxes about that i feel it pump up (not water, just an imense pump) :crazy: .

Think you may be almost right on the not dropping of strength :rolleye11


----------



## fits

Sounds like its all goin gvery well, and apart from the back, no sides!! Have you tried this kind of cycle out yourself OSC?

Seems like your progressing nicely S69, Good to see your still doing it slowly and not just pumping more D-bol for faster results! if you keep going the way you are with no or very little sides i think allot of people wil try it! more effective and allot cheaper than most "super supps" you see advertised!

keep use informed mate.


----------



## samurai691436114498

fits said:


> Seems like your progressing nicely S69, Good to see your still doing it slowly and not just pumping more D-bol for faster results! if you keep going the way you are with no or very little sides i think allot of people wil try it! more effective and allot cheaper than most "super supps" you see advertised!
> 
> keep use informed mate.


The temptation is to either keep on or up the dose, but i expected that and as OSC says slow and steady and there should be no drop in strength either, so rool on the next 14 days 

cheers *fits*, its definately a cheap cycle, i got enough d-bol for about a year for less than 4 tubs of protein  .

trouble is people will see the gains and start with the more is better route blah blah blah :rolleye11

:beer1:


----------



## fits

Yeah I can imagine that it is tempting very tempting to up it but i like OSC view, why use more when some thing is working? risk more side etc when it works!

i think allot of people are keeping tabs on this thread, you may start a new tren, keep it up and good luck,


----------



## Old Man GABA

S69 did you try the ibuprofen, I know Hackski mentioned the liver thing but your on a low dbol dose.

Just curious


----------



## samurai691436114498

Old Man GABA said:


> S69 did you try the ibuprofen, I know Hackski mentioned the liver thing but your on a low dbol dose.
> 
> Just curious


if its gotten really bad i have taken 200mg tablet, my main concern is when i move and have to start hauling boxes around (not with proper form lol), but then if it looks like its going to be too much i will definately up that to 4 or 600 mg.........having said that if i move towards the end of the off cycle there shouldnt be any real pain


----------



## Cookie

> Sounds like its all goin gvery well, and apart from the back, no sides!! Have you tried this kind of cycle out yourself OSC?


Its what I always used when I first started gear(after a handfull month long cycles)and tbh I wished I`d stuck with it but like most if not all bbers I just got carried away with the results and started to use more gear and different gear...I did use it again a few yrs later but used it in a different way to drop bf with some other compounds...



> Think you may be almost right on the not dropping of strength


Almost...lmao...."ALWAYS RIGHT"....lol



> but i like OSC view, why use more when some thing is working? risk more side etc when it works!


Exactly..."Dont fix it if it aint broke"



> i think allot of people are keeping tabs on this thread, you may start a new tren,


They are...and it would be nice if more put their opinions forward.....not a new trend...just a reindroduction of an old theory and some commons sense with drug use...

As for the back sam69...ever thought about just getting it checked out just to make sure all is well and there is nothing slightly out of place...as it seems like it is to me..


----------



## hackskii

Wear your weight belt when you move those boxes Samauri.


----------



## samurai691436114498

ONE SMART COOKIE said:


> As for the back sam69...ever thought about just getting it checked out just to make sure all is well and there is nothing slightly out of place...as it seems like it is to me..


I probably will after the move (holding on to money at the moment), thing is there is no pain most of the time, just when i am lifting (Boxes mostly). The rest of the time it seems ok, its like a lower back pump (like when you do hypers/reverse hypers etc), it seems to ease during the off cycle part. So will see how it progresses, I may try the inversion stuff, OSC how is that going


----------



## Cookie

> I may try the inversion stuff, OSC how is that going


Pretty good.....I`m at about a good 90% better....I`ll know more when I have next week of work for hols and can give my back some much needed rest time from carryiong the mail....

Well worth getting the inversion boots though...


----------



## samurai691436114498

ONE SMART COOKIE said:


> Pretty good.....I`m at about a good 90% better....I`ll know more when I have next week of work for hols and can give my back some much needed rest time from carryiong the mail....
> 
> Well worth getting the inversion boots though...


Do you hook them on a door chinning bar or elswhere


----------



## Cookie

I have a door chining bar that hooks up onto the door frame rather than in the door frame...plus it works on a canterlever method and evenly distrobutes the weight(that one I showed you in the pm of ebay)


----------



## samurai691436114498

Ok, the new appt has a high hall area which isnt too wide, so will probably go for a door type chinning bar......

The gym I go to has a sort of upside down roman chair which is quite good as ther is no pressure on the ankle/leg, just from the hip, wouldnt mind that


----------



## Captain Hero

ONE SMART COOKIE said:


> I have a door chining bar that hooks up onto the door frame rather than in the door frame...plus it works on a canterlever method and evenly distrobutes the weight(that one I showed you in the pm of ebay)


OSC who is the manufacturer of those chinning bars you are talking about? and how much do they cost?


----------



## samurai691436114498

hackskii said:


> Oh cool on the martial arts. I hope I never meet up with you when you are upset
> 
> .


A picure of me with a student taken about 3 or 4 months ago


----------



## firemansam

Give me back my D/Bol you little ba***rd :rolleye11


----------



## hackskii

Nice is that Aikido you are doing?


----------



## samurai691436114498

firemansam said:


> Give me back my D/Bol you little ba***rd :rolleye11


LOL, he wouldnt have dared 



hackskii said:


> Nice is that Aikido you are doing?


Yep, its the end part of a take down into a PIN


----------



## DB

samurai u look in pain :rolleye11


----------



## Cookie

Cap said:


> OSC who is the manufacturer of those chinning bars you are talking about? and how much do they cost?


Here you go cap....

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1521&item=7170037495&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW

Great item...imo...I would alter it slightly but I`m just an awkward bugger really...


----------



## samurai691436114498

DB said:


> samurai u look in pain :rolleye11


LOL, its the poor student on the floor i was being Kind too and helping him stretch his forearm


----------



## winger

samurai69 said:


> LOL, its the poor student on the floor i was being Kind too and helping him stretch his forearm


LOL.


----------



## samurai691436114498

First week of 2nd off cycle and no real drop off in strength.

Weight is still about the same, no particular increase, but also no decrease either.

Going to lay off of deadlifts this weekend to see if there is any improvment in the back next week.


----------



## samurai691436114498

Half way throught he off cycle and the weekends been ok with food etc but I seem to have got a mild chest infection (or something - might be start of some sort of cough thing), so again I didnt sleep too well last night and I am not going to push training too hard over the next few days, I will still train, hopefully i will not drop any size or strength whilst I am letting this heal.

The week after could be a bit of a problem training wise as 1. we are definately moving that week and 2. The gym has funny opening hours for the whole of august.

August is going to be a bit difficult getting good training in as apart from the gyms hours and moving we also have guests over for nearly three weeks of august.............I will keep eating well and will try to keep up good training andhopefully will continue to see the same gains as I have done over the past month or so.

Looking forward to re starting cycle next monday (will weigh in on sunday prior to starting)


----------



## Cookie

Simple answer to the training problem is when you cant train is to hit the bodyweight exercises hard for a few days or even a week to throw the body slightly off balance...& still hit the muscles.


----------



## samurai691436114498

Yes ok, will see how it goes


----------



## winger

If it were me and I was post cycle, I would go heavy but do less sets. The key is to maintain your strength. That way the body gets used to pushing the heavier weight.


----------



## samurai691436114498

Just been to the docs and the chest thing is down to stress (this ferking move) and probably explains the raised BP last week, at least i know what it is.

So went off to the gym and had a pretty good workout (down on reps on some exercises probably due to lack of sleep).

*So hacks and OSC, what can i take to calm things down quickly (ie a natural Valium :rolleye11 ) so I can get back on track.*

Because its been a bit iffy with the chest I took it easier on the food and dropped the creatine so not sure how well i will hold these gains this week. Jumped on the scale and i am still on the 93kg which is good.

Well hopefully this move will be all sorted out by the end of next week


----------



## hackskii

Valarian Root

L-tryptophan and 5-hydroxy-L-tryptophan

Calcium

Hops

catnip

St. johns wart.

DL-Phenylalanine

Some B-Vitamins too are needed

Others too but this is just off the top of my head.


----------



## samurai691436114498

hackskii said:


> Valarian Root
> 
> L-tryptophan and 5-hydroxy-L-tryptophan
> 
> Calcium
> 
> Hops
> 
> catnip
> 
> St. johns wart.
> 
> Others too but this is just off the top of my head.


Cheers mate, Which bits work quickest, and can i take the hops in beer form


----------



## hackskii

Probably the valarian root and l-triptophan that is if you can find it.

catnip is supposed to be good for mood

st.johns wart takes time to get into the system so this is probably out

Large amounts of calcium have a calming effect


----------



## hackskii

Many companies make a compount herbal remady for stress


----------



## samurai691436114498

Ok, will pop down to the farmacia and se what they have that looks similar


----------



## winger

Meditation will help! If you get laid more often I heard that helps, I wouldn't know I am married........lol.


----------



## samurai691436114498

winger said:


> , I wouldn't know I am married........lol.


ME TOO


----------



## winger

The three rings of marriage. Engagement ring, wedding ring and suffering.


----------



## samurai691436114498

winger said:


> The three rings of marriage. Engagement ring, wedding ring and *suffering*.


LOL :withstupi

Well took some OTC herbal tranquiliser with valarian root and It seems to have helped had OK sleep and breathing is more or less back to normal.

Thanks OSC will give it a go.

Went to gym and worked back and there has been no drop off in strength and pump was still quite good, diet has been really bad last 2 days with little or no appitite and finding it a bit tough today getting back on. Weight still seems to be stable (maybe 1/2 kilo drop off).

Temperature in the gym was high today and I was having trouble trying to replenish fluids quick enough either that or the valarim tablets were making me sweat 

.


----------



## samurai691436114498

Well only 4 days till I am back on cycle (looking forward to more strength/weight gains).

Weighed my self today and i am still around 93 kg, which considering the poor diet this week is way better than expected.

I also havent re started the creatine since i stopped it on sunday

Stress thing seems under control and apartment move is set for next wednesday, so thats cool. 

Worked chest today and no drop off in strength (missing a bit of the aggression pushing out the last rep or two).

I avoided working lower back yesterday and did no deadlifting last saturday and the back has been fine. Doing squats tomorrow which shouldnt affect it too much. So it looks like it could be the pump or water retention particularly in the second week of the ON cycle.

So pleased with how things are going at the moment


----------



## samurai691436114498

Well, seem totally over the stress thing now and really looking forward to starting next 14 day cycle

It was leg day today and I had planned on taking it easy but started squating and bravado took hold, anyway not only did i manage the squats with last weeks max, but stuck another 5kg per side on for three reps to 45*, so thats like 15kg per side in the two weeks off (hope my legs grow a bit more now :rolleye11 ).

so full steam ahead for next week  

as a side note my mates not out till the 22nd so it will not get in the way of the on cycle, and also should have a good tan as I should have 3 weeks of beach bumming it


----------



## samurai691436114498

Just done my proper pre start weigh in and I am nearer 92kg than 93kg, so will list 92kg as my starting weight. Which is quite good considering the stress problem and the poor diet over the whole two weeks, especially the fact that there was no drop in strength and even a few increases.

Looking forward to resuming cycle and some more gains in both weight and strength, not sure if they will be as good as the last two, as we are moving this wednesday, we are then away for the weekend and as I have said a few times the gym is open funny hours during august.

I should still make continued good gains though


----------



## fits

Sounds good S69 keep the info comming.


----------



## winger

fits said:


> Sounds good S69 keep the info comming.


That does sound good. Could you imagine if you kept your gains on all your cycles?


----------



## samurai691436114498

winger said:


> That does sound good. Could you imagine if you kept your gains on all your cycles?


Cheers, yep it would be great. It would be great to go back to uk with a 10 - 14 lb gain from starting cycles........thats the aim


----------



## winger

samurai69 said:


> Cheers, yep it would be great. It would be great to go back to uk with a 10 - 14 lb gain from starting cycles........thats the aim


Aim high


----------



## samurai691436114498

First day back on and did shoulder workout and strength is still there, increased weight on shrugs by 2kg which was quite good.

However as i suspected water consumption has been down just because i have been busy running around, diet suffered a bit but could have been much worse.


----------



## samurai691436114498

Day 2 of 3rd cycle and as I suspected the move is hamperring things, Couldnt train today and diet has been bad and still not getting enough water. Actual Move tomorrow so again no gym and not sure about the diet.

Thursday should get to the gym planning on super setting back and chest and then on friday legs and arms.

Then away at the weekend.

So hopefully this week isnt going to effect the gains too badly. And should manage a fairly good week next week, so as the strength from this weeks d-bol kicks in i should be able to make some gains atleast in strength next week.

Also not sure how the internet access is going to be over the next couple of weeks so if i cant post will keep a written log and post up at the end.

This is going to be the last of the cycles before my slightly longer rest so when i get a chance (after the cycle is completed) I will post up new pictures and full stats..... I think i will still be pleasantly surprised at the gains, definately in strength, but more importantly in size and shape.

Then After a slightly longer rest will continue on the cycle upto December (as long as regular gains are being made)


----------



## samurai691436114498

Today again no gym bad diet and not enough water, hopefully back on track a little tomorrow and pretty much sorted from monday........... Maybe it would be an idea to stay on for the 3rd week as i will be having a slightly longer break before resuming on my lead up to december (THOUGHTS PLEASE)

I will be officially offline from tomorrow whilst the beurocrats in portugal get their acts together and sort out my internet and telephoine line.......maybe a few days maybe longer........

Speak/|Write soon


----------



## fits

BUMMP!!

Keep us informed and updated mate.


----------



## demon

Sounds like you're making good progress Samurai.

Have you found that the dbol has affected your sleep in any way? I found on one occasion in the past that it made me sleep all day, and on another occasion that it stopped me from sleeping at night.

Also, did you use any nolva between your 2nd and 3rd cycles? Or just the trib and zinc?


----------



## samurai691436114498

I am back online and will post up an update tomorrow..............

Only used nolva after first cycle and no problems sleeping


----------



## samurai691436114498

weighed in at 207 lbs.......still going up even with cr4p diet


----------



## samurai691436114498

Well over the last two weeks diet has been really bad, probably managed to keep protein high enough, but not consistent and as for water consumption, that has been even worse, fluid has been variable (water, cola, beer, tea etc).

Training has been ok, manged to get in to gym all of this past week and 3 days the week before, intensity has been up and down, but strength has not dropped off at all,  .

I have decided to carry on for an extra 3 days this cycle (17 days) as i have felt that just as stregth is increasing (on 14 days), I am stopping (I will post up more info after).

Then I am having a slightly longer break before resuming on the build up to 6th december (which will be exactly 6 months) I am aiming to have increased weight by 14 lbs from start to finish and will be happy if i come close to that.

I think with a little help from cookie et al, i can get the diet nailed and should have a much better chance of reaching (or pushing beyond) my goal.

I will post up stats and pics over next weekend as this would have allowed any water weight to have dropped off. I am not sure wether there will be much change in measurments, but I definately look bigger and the muscles are fuller (chest is fuller and more width across shoulders).

I weighed myself a couple of times over the last few days and I am still up slightly averaging between 94 (206.8 lbs) and 94.5 kg (207.9 lbs) which is excellent news considering poor diet etc.

When i started i was 88.5, thats an increase of nearly 6 kg since i started, I am sure some of that is water weight, but hopefully the photos will give a truer picture of the gains


----------



## samurai691436114498

Well i kept on cycle for an extra 3 days in the hope that the strength gain would climb a little, but TBH i think the extra 3 days made no difference to it, so next time will continue on 14 x 14.

weighed in at 94.5 kg (207.9 lbs) which is good, I am going to do a full stats tomorrow and hopefully will get pictures up monday or tuesday

I am very happy with the gains i have made (size, shape and strength) and it will be interesting to see if you notice the same from the pics.


----------



## fits

SOunds good S69 i have been thinking about doing something like this myself very hard recently. I know some people say, if your going to do it then make the most of your first cycle and use bigger doses, but i like the softly softly approach. If you have not really had any sides then that damn good.

I did read an article recently that said any less than 125mg of Test a week is not worth it because it will only stop your natural production, and that it ccould actually make you LOOSE muscle!! (this was in a mag) but it seems that you could be proving that wrong. It will be good to see if the muscle stays a month or two after your last cycle!!

looking forard to pics mate, keep it up


----------



## Mad Pikey

Excellent thread, are you still taking all three tabs in one hit? Is the 14/14 better than the 25/17 25/25?


----------



## samurai691436114498

Mad Pikey said:


> Excellent thread, are you still taking all three tabs in one hit? Is the 14/14 better than the 25/17 25/25?


Yep continued to take all 3 first thing in the morning.

TBH i have stuck to 14/14, it was only the last cycle that i continued up to 17 on to see how/if there was more of a strength gain (i didnt notice any) so i will stick to 14/14 until it stops working (got enough tabs for about a year  :rolleye11 lol)

I hope the weight stays on too  , i think the creatine will help with this and will post up weight and measurments again before going back on in about 4 weeks time...........stats and picks are on their way


----------



## samurai691436114498

fits said:


> I know some people say, if your going to do it then make the most of your first cycle and use bigger doses, but i like the softly softly approach. If you have not really had any sides then that damn good.


I have reead and heard this, but definately feel that the "softly softly" approach is a good way to go, then if it stops working i can increase the dose respectively

I also think if i had made massive gains too quickly i would have got greedy with it and aimed for more (a good thing for the dealers  ) pushing to ever higher doses.

No sides, no (noticable shut down), nothing noticable at all, after the stress thing was sorted no increased BP either.


----------



## fits

Good Stuff mate! are you using anything else to boost natural test or not? Trib? ZMA etc? Cookie put me onto a god Trib that im sure worked (was mega horny after using it about two week, not always a good thing though!)

If you are what you using and when ?


----------



## samurai691436114498

No, not usine anything except creatine between cycles


----------



## samurai691436114498

Stats as of 5th June 2005 *Stats in red as of 20th August*

Height 6' and a bit

Weight 88.5 kg *new weight 94.25 up 5.75 kg*

BF % worked out by http://www.battlezinc.com/bodyfatcalc.asp *I think the new BF measurments are a little out, it was a different person measuring, so probably nearer the old measurments*

Jackson Pollock 7 Site 9.9% *new 8.7*

Jackson Pollock 3 Site 7.4% *new 6.1*

Pollack et al 10.2% *new 7.4*

Parillo 9 site 10.1% * new 8.4*

Average body fat 9.4% *new 7.7*

Measurements relaxed and un pumped *These are more accurate*

Right Bicep 16.25" *new 16.75"*

Chest 44" *new 45.5"*

Waist (belly button height) 36" *new 35.5"*

Hip 38.5" *new 39.5"*

Thigh 24" *new 24.25"*

Calf 16" *new 16"*

Nexk 18.5" *new 19"*

Pictures to follow later

*Some good changes :rolleye11 *


----------



## Cookie

Looks like its all coming together nicely...keep it up more to come...


----------



## samurai691436114498

ONE SMART COOKIE said:


> Looks like its all coming together nicely...keep it up more to come...


definately, well pleased with how things are going and TBH diet for half has been really bad


----------



## samurai691436114498

Couple of pics, front and rear double biceps


----------



## samurai691436114498

Still having problems can someone reduce them down a little so they all fit in


----------



## hackskii

I think you look leaner.


----------



## DB

here u go sam  look good mate

*Edited by Hackskii*

DB re-sized them and I converted them to .JPG so the dial-up guys wont load for ages.

Thanks DB for the re-size, I removed them in your post so the thread didnt have double posts (cutting down the download for those dialup guys).

Thanks again DB, you are the greatest. :beer:


----------



## samurai691436114498

Leaner, more medial delt, thicker traps (pics dont show it too well) better tan LOL, other pics to follow


----------



## samurai691436114498

Have to say CX was right to a degree pics dont always show improvements either


----------



## fits

Nice going mate but try keeping the size of the pics done, im running at a mighty38.6kbps and this thead just took bloody ages to open lol

Keep us informed, anychance of posting before and after pics side by side?

cheers


----------



## winger

Yea lets see a side by side from the beginning mate.


----------



## samurai691436114498

DB said:


> here u go sam  look good mate
> 
> *Edited by Hackskii*
> 
> DB re-sized them and I converted them to .JPG so the dial-up guys wont load for ages.
> 
> Thanks DB for the re-size, I removed them in your post so the thread didnt have double posts (cutting down the download for those dialup guys).
> 
> Thanks again DB, you are the greatest. :beer:


cheers DB and Hacks


----------



## samurai691436114498

Here are two pics side by side from the start and now, the tan is better definately


----------



## Great White

Looking thicker to mate,

Nice one - Good tan too!


----------



## winger

samurai69 said:


> Here are two pics side by side from the start and now, the tan is better definately


Even the wood looks more tan.


----------



## samurai691436114498

winger said:


> Even the wood looks more tan.


LOL, the woods different (new apartment :smoke: )


----------



## samurai691436114498

So from the comparison photos, do you reckon I have made good or ok gains

personally i think delts look thicker as do arms and lats look a bit wider, there is definately a better thickness to traps and back in general, what are your thoughts??


----------



## hackskii

Yep, bigger, stronger, tanner

Way more handsome.

Why if I already didnt have a chick and was gay, I would be all over you

No seriously you look stronger and thicker.


----------



## samurai691436114498

hackskii said:


> you look thicker.


 what!!

:rage: :rage: :axe: :rage:


----------



## hackskii

From what I have checked out you look thicker

Hey big boy, that was a compliment Mr Johnson.


----------



## winger

samurai69 said:


> what!!:rage: :rage: :axe: :rage:


You look more muscular, but the adrogens might be affecting your posts..........lol


----------



## Damian81

must be doing somthing right fela keep up the good progress intresting read...

looking much bigger overall:lift: ...


----------



## fits

Looking bigger for definate mate! going well, keep it up and keep us updated!!

Any one else trying this yet?

Well done S69


----------



## samurai691436114498

fits said:


> Any one else trying this yet?


Heard firemansam was doing similar as a maintenance with cardio and i think a couple of others were doing similar...............If you have or are, post up how you are doing


----------



## firemansam

Yes mate i did it for 14 days on then 14 off but on the off days I also used creatine,gaba,glutamine,clen.

Unfortunately I have not trained for just over 3 weeks as I am off work with a nerve irritation (so the doc calls it) in my neck which is causing pain in my upper back,right pec and I have lost the feeling in my right tricep down to the elbow. This was was caused whilst playing in the sea with my kids and their friends and some were hanging onto my neck and then I would throw them, well you know the score they had fun  but unfortunately I have been in pain since but when recovered I am going to give this a good run. great results S69 hope it continues mate.


----------



## samurai691436114498

firemansam said:


> Yes mate i did it for 14 days on then 14 off but on the off days I also used creatine,gaba,glutamine,clen.
> 
> Unfortunately I have not trained for just over 3 weeks as I am off work with a nerve irritation (so the doc calls it) in my neck which is causing pain in my upper back,right pec and I have lost the feeling in my right tricep down to the elbow. This was was caused whilst playing in the sea with my kids and their friends and some were hanging onto my neck and then I would throw them, well you know the score they had fun  but unfortunately I have been in pain since but when recovered I am going to give this a good run. great results S69 hope it continues mate.


Cheers mate, Post up some info on it once you have resumed, I need to know its not just me

Hope it all gets better quickly


----------



## firemansam

will do as soon as I start :lift: again.


----------



## fits

sorry to hear that fireman, dont sound good! but as S69 says keep us informed. How long into it did you have the accident? just 4 weekss?

good luck lads. keep it up!


----------



## winger

firemansam said:


> This was was caused whilst playing in the sea with my kids and their friends and some were hanging onto my neck and then I would throw them, well you know the score they had fun


Been there done that. I have done this more than once. Hope you get better.


----------



## hackskii

firemansam said:


> Yes mate i did it for 14 days on then 14 off but on the off days I also used creatine,gaba,glutamine,clen.
> 
> Unfortunately I have not trained for just over 3 weeks as I am off work with a nerve irritation (so the doc calls it) in my neck which is causing pain in my upper back,right pec and I have lost the feeling in my right tricep down to the elbow. This was was caused whilst playing in the sea with my kids and their friends and some were hanging onto my neck and then I would throw them, well you know the score they had fun  but unfortunately I have been in pain since but when recovered I am going to give this a good run. great results S69 hope it continues mate.


Oh, did a similar thing to mine chichen fighting in the river with some teen age boys.

What a stupid thing to do, my neck hurt for along time.

Sorted it out fairly quickly with a chiropractor.

A good one will fix you right up.


----------



## samurai691436114498

Well, trained 16th, 17th and 18th as more or less normal and then a break of 5 days then did 3 x 8 DB shoulder press, 3 x 8 pulldowns, 3 x 8 Incline DB chest press and 3 sets of shrugs on the 24th and then 5 more days rest, then my mate goes back and i can get on with some proper training again.

Diet since the 16th has been awefull (like being on holiday....eating out all the time etc) and probably too much alcohol and definately not enough water.

Just weighed my self and I am still at 94 and a bit KG (207 lbs) which is good news.

Will start back on cycle either 12th sept or 19th sept, which will give me 3 complete 14/14 cycles leading up to december (and back in uk for holiday).


----------



## firemansam

Yes fits i have only done the 14 days d/bol and then 14 days off. thanks for the kind words guys but to be honest it is not getting any better now from seeing the chiro. Doctors and an x-ray now.


----------



## Captain Hero

fits said:


> Looking bigger for definate mate! going well, keep it up and keep us updated!!
> 
> Any one else trying this yet?
> 
> Well done S69


not yet but will be prob next year after my 21st. Might do the CX style cycles.


----------



## kevo

Any updated pics samurai?


----------



## samurai691436114498

kevo said:


> Any updated pics samurai?


*theres a before and after on the page before this one, taken last week* 

I am starting to get my diet back on track next week (had a couple of weeks with friends over, too much beer and bad food) and then I will be starting the *first* of my next three cycles on the 19th sept, which will lead up nicely to my uk holiday at Xmas  .

I will post up stats again just before resuming cycles


----------



## kevo

top stuff, cheers mate, good progress too, very tempted now. Nice tan bro!


----------



## samurai691436114498

Starting next cycle on monday, OSC has had a look at the diet and we have come up with a plan of attack, so even more gains this time


----------



## Cookie

> Starting next cycle on monday, OSC has had a look at the diet and we have come up with a plan of attack, so even more gains this time


Fingers croseed....

We`ll have to watch your weight daily to make adjustments so the gains keep coming.


----------



## winger

ONE SMART COOKIE said:


> Fingers croseed....
> 
> We`ll have to watch your weight daily to make adjustments so the gains keep coming.


Uncooked eggs here they come.......lol.


----------



## hackskii

Well, Cookie is smart and will devise a plan of attack that will be productive.

I am sure of that!

Shib comes to mind, firstly.

Watch out for chewing all of your supplements:eek:

I am laughing right now at the disgust of that.

If you can do what he says then you will be better off.

I am sure you will be happy with the results if you stay strict.

Please keep us posted........................ok?


----------



## winger

Man, OSC is the sh1t when it comes to diet. I honestly dont think to many can do what HE tells you too. Get ready to take in hand fulls of desicated defated liver tabs................lol.


----------



## hackskii

Dessicated liver is good stuff for sure.

Be aware of chewing them:eek:


----------



## JSM

Now that you guys are on the topic of D. Liver tabs can you Hackskii give some nutrional value on those things. You know why they are so good. I hear great things about them.


----------



## hackskii

Dessicated liver is a protein source.

Dessicated liver is a glandular substance which can have growth factor issues.

Glandulars is nothing new, they have been around for ages, Raw Male (testicles), Liver (one of the best things for anemia), every thing that effects the body is in food.

Whether we are talking about glandulars or just food.

Food is the most anabolic/catabolic substance known to man.

Many people feel that glandulars supplement the deifiencies that occur in ordanary life.

So with that thinking the guy with a bad heart will take an extract of heart.

Or the guy that is low testosterone will take the extract of testicles.

I do agree with this but I also think that there are vegetable extracts that can do the same thing.

Example, Liver.......Liv52, Milk Thistle, ALA, and others. Now dont get me wrong, I agree with the extracts in glandulars do work but maybe other things might work good and are cheaper to obtain and are more functional.

Liver tabs were very common 40 years ago.

Now whey and whey isolates are common.

Which work better?

For a specific function, there are specific meds or supplements, all have their place.

Eggs for example are a cheap source of protein and the best source of protein for a food group.

Free range are best but we dont have accesss to those.

Bulls balls are said to increase libido but I am not willing to eat a plate of those to increase my sex drive/libido, to test this out.............................. 

Are liver tabs good?

Yes

Is whey protein good?

Yes

Anyone who does not get enough protein in their diet will have problems, where you get it and from what source is up to the individule and is also individule too.

What works for one does not work for all.


----------



## JSM

So I would guess then taking liver tabs with your meals is just a good way to add extra protein. A good source of protein.


----------



## winger

OSC loves the old school approach, it did work for those guys like Arnold.   There is no doubt following OSC diet you will get nutrition.


----------



## hackskii

JSM said:


> So I would guess then taking liver tabs with your meals is just a good way to add extra protein. A good source of protein.


Yes, if you are not getting enough already.

Maybe a factor in being a good, maybe a factor in not.

I think between meals as a supp would be best but that is just me and nobody elses opinion.

Maybe I might have to pound down a bunch of these to see if it is good stuff:lift:


----------



## samurai691436114498

hackskii said:


> Dessicated liver is good stuff for sure.
> 
> Be aware of chewing them:eek:


Unfortunately  , they are not easy to get hold of here  , its easier to go in to a chemist and buy AAs :rolleye11 than it is to get desicated Liver Tabs.

So unfortunatelly I wont be taking them

In the old days I remember having a bottle of them tablets the size of rugby balls and you were supposed to take 6 or 9 of them 3 times a day


----------



## Cookie

JSM said:


> So I would guess then taking liver tabs with your meals is just a good way to add extra protein. A good source of protein.


Not just for adding extra protein but also p450 which helps clean your liver and blood,plus with the extra iron and b vits the liver tabs give greatly increases pumps and overall muscle fullness and overall energy levels for the day(I recomend not taking after 4pm because of this or you wont sleep right)

I found the best way to take them was 5 every 1-2hrs depending on your budget for 3 weeks then rest for 1 week as too much iron is bad for the immune system.

Winger?hackskii


----------



## winger

Gota bump for Cookie but I think Shib was taking 100 a day all chewed...eewww


----------



## kevo

Liver tabs eh?! sound top. Where from, how much guys?

ta, Kev


----------



## Cookie

> Liver tabs eh?! sound top. Where from, how much guys?


H&B sell some that aint too bad...start with 3 4x`s aday and build from there..



> Gota bump for Cookie but I think Shib was taking 100 a day all chewed...eewww


I think it was about 50 he was on...I lost all the info i sent him when computer crashed:boohoo: and there aint nothing wrong with chewing it increases absobtion of all the nutrients...



> Well, Cookie is smart and will devise a plan of attack that will be productive.





> Man, OSC is the sh1t when it comes to diet. I honestly dont think to many can do what HE tells you too.





> OSC loves the old school approach, it did work for those guys like Arnold.  There is no doubt following OSC diet you will get nutrition.


A copy & paste from Bio about yours trully(I`m so proud of it)



> *One Smart Cookie* - this man has probably forgotten more about training & nutrition than i have learned as of yet. Another great guy who i count myself lucky to be able to call friend. The first person to send a card when my son Cameron was born. That will NEVER be forgotten. Any & all of us should listen to this guy. If you have an interest in the golden age of BB'ing (which im 100% sure is why we are all here) & want to look like a Greek God i suggest you talk to him! It even worked for me with my thick waist and not-so-classic physique.


----------



## kevo

Cheers OSC,

how long till I increase the ammount, and what do i increase too? how much extra protien would this provide roughly? and after the week off, do I just jump back on at the full ammountx3 or build up?


----------



## Cookie

kevo said:


> Cheers OSC,
> 
> how long till I increase the ammount, and what do i increase too? how much extra protien would this provide roughly? and after the week off, do I just jump back on at the full ammountx3 or build up?


I would increase them 1 per meal each week and see what difference it adds,but not nowing much about you I would say 30-50 aday TOPS as we all react differently to them.

I never really count them as protein but as a natural tool to make extra gains..

If you wanted to add even more protein to your meals try having a cup of a bovril type product with each meal(I use sainbury`s own make less salt in there)this also adds more b vits for your metabolism and energy levels...


----------



## kevo

Brill, cheers mate, so Im still on 3 times a day, upto a max of 50 tabs.

whats the score after the week off? back on at the increased ammount?


----------



## Cookie

kevo said:


> Brill, cheers mate, so Im still on 3 times a day, upto a max of 50 tabs.
> 
> whats the score after the week off? back on at the increased ammount?


Try having them over your first 4 meals(I might have typoed) and yeah when you come back after the week of stay at the level you reached,but dont be in too much of a rush to hit "50" as it aint no magic number we are all different..I used to use 100 aday and it was like being on gear,sex drive through the roof and breaking out in spots


----------



## kevo

lol, cool. ok mate will give it a try. thanks for your help!


----------



## samurai691436114498

ONE SMART COOKIE said:


> H&B sell some that aint too bad...start with 3 4x`s aday and build from there..


£10 for 500 tabs  at H and B


----------



## winger

That is cheap IMO!


----------



## Captain Hero

isnt there a thread related to Shibs training and progress on this site?


----------



## samurai691436114498

Yes there was :rolleye11


----------



## winger

Cap said:


> isnt there a thread related to Shibs training and progress on this site?


Sure is click here.


----------



## Deano1

samurai69 said:


> £10 for 500 tabs  at H and B


sorry dont mean to hyjack ! but im interested the above ^ what are these liver tabs called from h&b ???

cheers

Deano


----------



## Captain Hero

winger said:


> Sure is click here.


cheers ringer


----------



## winger

Deano1 said:


> sorry dont mean to hyjack ! but im interested the above ^ what are these liver tabs called from h&b ???
> 
> cheers
> 
> Deano


Sorry about the hijack? The thread isn't even about Shib......lol.

No problem Capster!


----------



## samurai691436114498

Deano1 said:


> sorry dont mean to hyjack ! but im interested the above ^ what are these liver tabs called from h&b ???
> 
> cheers
> 
> Deano


Just went to the H and B web site and typed in liver tabs and there were 2 that came up


----------



## fits

SO, no one else actually tried this type of ccycle then??? Any thing clse to it?


----------



## samurai691436114498

fits said:


> SO, no one else actually tried this type of ccycle then??? Any thing clse to it?


Looking back through the posts there were 3 or 4 people going to try it, I know firemansam did it for a short time but for slightly different reasons, *but come on people I need to know from others how its going*

anyway I am due to restart on Monday and will post up current stats then


----------



## Deano1

winger said:


> Sorry about the hijack? The thread isn't even about Shib......lol.
> 
> No problem Capster!


I know its not about shib !! u horney bitch!


----------



## winger

Deano1 said:


> I know its not about shib !! u horney bitch!


He he.


----------



## hackskii

Look here

http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/showthread.php?p=127723#post127723


----------



## samurai691436114498

Started cycle Yesterday (monday 19th sept), weight is 93 kg (204.5 lbs) so down about 3 lbs from total gain.

Training has started well with intensity high.

Diet also is going ok (with some help from OSC).


----------



## fits

You think you have lost some solid fgains there? 3lbs could be water i guess?

Keep us updated!


----------



## Captain Hero

bump! Sweet thread, wouldnt want all the info in it to get buried


----------



## samurai691436114498

Cap said:


> bump! Sweet thread, wouldnt want all the info in it to get buried


Get a mod to make it a sticky :rolleye11 

As a side note, training has been going well over this, first of a, new cycle some weights going up, if not weight then reps and intensity has increased aswell.

Diet suffered over last weekend as we went grape picking and drunk a bit too much :beer1: . they had a barbecued pig so got my protein :rolleye11

excellent weekend...shame it was mid cycle:eek: .

weight looks as though it has gone up and i always seem to feel bigger whilst on cycle

leg training is suffering a bit, only working them once every 2 weeks at the moment and they still dont feel fully recovered


----------



## Cookie

> Sure, it's sensible to go to a 4 day split when you're unable to generate the intensity needed in a 2 day split.


Pm me your training schedule and we`ll sort that out....I have a few nice(secret) ideas you might like:rolleye11


----------



## samurai691436114498

First 2 weeks back on cycle and all is going ok again, just did a weigh in and I am at 95kg (209lbs)or just under

Dont think I will quite make the magic 100kg (220lbs) by christmas (11 lbs to go) but I am sure i will get pretty close

Sorry OSC for not posting up diet but with PC playing up big time and a sudden rush on work I havent had the time....diet may have suffered slightly this last week, but not soo bad that i havent made some gains

Looking forward to the next one in 2 weeks


----------



## winger

samurai69 said:


> PC playing up big time


Run this for your p.c. Click here.

If you dont have a good antivirus then run this. It is the sh1t, click here.

Dont take this too wrong but dont pay so much attention to your weight, it could be deceiving.


----------



## hackskii

Haaa haaa winger, I use both of those and rate them highly


----------



## winger

hackskii said:


> Haaa haaa winger, I use both of those and rate them highly


How do you rate the rabbit?........lol.


----------



## hackskii

winger said:


> How do you rate the rabbit?........lol.


Wow, the #1 females toy.

I cant rate to that you ***.............

No man can........:axe:


----------



## winger

Sorry samurai69, my brother like to hijack. So how is your cycle coming along?


----------



## samurai691436114498

winger said:


> Sorry samurai69, my brother like to hijack. So how is your cycle coming along?


I had noticed the recent hijacks :rage:

Yep, its goin ok, up a bit, weight wise and still two more before xmas so another couple of kg......would be nice to hit 97 or 98 kg by then


----------



## Cookie

samurai69 said:


> I had noticed the recent hijacks :rage:
> 
> Yep, its goin ok, up a bit, weight wise and still two more before xmas so another couple of kg......would be nice to hit 97 or 98 kg by then


Email me bud and we`ll get you upto that target weight for christmas...


----------



## samurai691436114498

ONE SMART COOKIE said:


> Email me bud and we`ll get you upto that target weight for christmas...


Will get some proper time by the weekend


----------



## winger

samurai69 said:


> Will get some proper time by the weekend


Look at all the gains that are lost from now till the weekend!


----------



## samurai691436114498

winger said:


> Look at all the gains that are lost from now till the weekend!


Or continued gains


----------



## winger

samurai69 said:


> Or continued gains


Half empty/half full


----------



## samurai691436114498

2nd day of second week off cycle.

Not trained too well over the last 2 weeks, had to miss a few sessions last week due to work commitments and this week to a niggley back, should be ok through chest and arms days (going to give legs and back a miss again........allow some time for some recovery)

Weight is still good and diet hasnt been too bad

Will continue on cycle again from monday 17th, hopefully back on track with training too.

A little worried about the back as i am running some courses over the next four weeks and could do without back trouble, may just avoid working back and legs until the courses are over


----------



## Cookie

Why not just do some bodyweight exercises when you cant train at the gym and do some inversion for the back...worked for me..


----------



## samurai691436114498

ONE SMART COOKIE said:


> Why not just do some bodyweight exercises when you cant train at the gym and do some inversion for the back...worked for me..


Good point on the BW exercises, used to do them when not in the gym, just forgot really

The inversion is good and i do, do a half body inversion, hanging from knees, not the best but it will do for the moment


----------



## winger

ONE SMART COOKIE said:


> Why not just do some bodyweight exercises when you cant train at the gym and do some inversion for the back...worked for me..


 Inversion will only work for the lower back problems, providing that the injury is alignment. Also if one leg is longer than another one then it won't work as well. If you use gravity boots, it is kind of aggressive. The bed is better only because it is more gradual.


----------



## Cookie

> Inversion will only work for the lower back problems


Not really you can use brachiation for the mid-to upper regions..



> providing that the injury is alignment.


No..it can be used for muscular injuries aswell if you know how to do it.



> Inversion will only work for the lower back problems, providing that the injury is alignment.


Now your just being argumentative as we both now everybody has some sore of imbalnce from left to right..



> If you use gravity boots, it is kind of aggressive.


Only if your hanging for longer than a minute or two..


----------



## samurai691436114498

Weighed in this morning and weight is still at 95kg, started middle cycle of three and feeling ok

Went easy on shoulders as back is still iffy (higher rep isolation stuff - shoulders still feel worked)

back tomorrow, but will stick with pull-ups only and plenty of stretching after


----------



## samurai691436114498

Back on cycle for 2 days and i was sick as a pig last night, so not taking todays 15mg, may take it later today or possible 30 mg tomorrow morning. (Stomach still feels a little churning)

This 14 day cycle's gotten off to a bad start really, back has been a bit of a problem, (though it feels like its getting better), and training is suffering a bit too and now stomach ache

Going to continue through this 14 days and see what the results are anyway as tthere is only going to be 1 more 14 day cycle before xmas hols and i would still like to get close (or at least closer) to the 100kg mark.


----------



## fits

Keep going mate, life always throws some thing up to upset things! will be good to see you get to or close to 100kg, hows the diet now? do the effects seem to have tapered off now?


----------



## samurai691436114498

fits said:


> Keep going mate, life always throws some thing up to upset things! will be good to see you get to or close to 100kg, hows the diet now? do the effects seem to have tapered off now?


Thanks fits

Diet was ok, but hurling and cr4ping all last night, down to 94kg and a bit dehydrated, going to take it easy food wise today and hopefull back on track tomorrow or friday.

Dont really think the effects have tapered off, the extended layoff a few weeks ago probably helped there. Some strength gains have slowed a bit, but thats a gym problem (not small enough incriments to keep adding weight) and slight lower back injury has ment going lighter on some pressing and lifting movements


----------



## fits

Just circumstances then eh? keep it up then S69, once your diets back on track you never know! hope you get to 100Kg! do you know what you will do after xmas? just keep going as you are until you hit 100kg?


----------



## Cookie

Drop the cycle and resume again when you are fully fit...

Pointless flogging a dead horse and getting frustrated etc with things that keep cropping up...

The dbol may also cause some stomach irratation which could make you feel much worse than you actually are..

Soo pull the gear out and get fit and well again..


----------



## samurai691436114498

ONE SMART COOKIE said:


> Drop the cycle and resume again when you are fully fit...
> 
> Pointless flogging a dead horse and getting frustrated etc with things that keep cropping up...
> 
> The dbol may also cause some stomach irratation which could make you feel much worse than you actually are..
> 
> Soo pull the gear out and get fit and well again..


Maybe i will give myself the rest of the week off and see how i am over the weekend then resume monday for a week then my normal 2 weeks off then the last roll into decenber

how does that sound OSC


----------



## Cookie

Take this week and next off then start again the week after..imo


----------



## hackskii

What are you sick from?

There is a bunch of stuff to bump start the immune system, even liver tabs


----------



## Stevo1436114499

S69...I am doin the same as urself 14x14 on 20mg ed, and had a few probs restarting after my first 14x14 but i am half way thru my 3rd 14x14 now and this time have let the tabs melt under my tongue each morning, dunno wether you've tried it or whether its coincidence but my strength gains and overall pump seem greater this time by doin this !!!

Any thoughts ???


----------



## samurai691436114498

Stevo said:


> S69...I am doin the same as urself 14x14 on 20mg ed, and had a few probs restarting after my first 14x14 but i am half way thru my 3rd 14x14 now and this time have let the tabs melt under my tongue each morning, dunno wether you've tried it or whether its coincidence but my strength gains and overall pump seem greater this time by doin this !!!
> 
> Any thoughts ???


I know OSC has tried and talked about this onthis thread, I tried the first couple that way, but it didnt suit me the times i was taking mine.....had a few probs this week or so any way

how are you doing what gains etc.... post up some info


----------



## fits

Stevo said:


> S69...I am doin the same as urself 14x14 on 20mg ed, and had a few probs restarting after my first 14x14 but i am half way thru my 3rd 14x14 now and this time have let the tabs melt under my tongue each morning, dunno wether you've tried it or whether its coincidence but my strength gains and overall pump seem greater this time by doin this !!!
> 
> Any thoughts ???


 Hows it going stevo? what gains you made? side effects? didn't think any one else was actually doing it as no one has given any updates.

It would be good for you both to keep us updated?


----------



## samurai691436114498

hackskii said:


> What are you sick from?
> 
> There is a bunch of stuff to bump start the immune system, even liver tabs


there has been a bug going rounfd the wifes school, think i have picked it up there TBH, and with the self defence thing I have had a lot more close contact with more people than usual


----------



## winger

Stevo said:


> now and this time have let the tabs melt under my tongue each morning, dunno wether you've tried it or whether its coincidence but my strength gains and overall pump seem greater this time by doin this !!!
> 
> Any thoughts ???


This is the best way IMO. Sublingual is the sh1t. Bump for Hackskii. Their are some fast acting orals that only work under the tongue. If swallowed they do nothing.


----------



## Captain Hero

winger said:


> This is the best way IMO. Sublingual is the sh1t. Bump for Hackskii. Their are some fast acting orals that only work under the tongue. If swallowed they do nothing.


do they have a nasty taste when done like this?


----------



## Stevo1436114499

Haven't been on the web much lately but did mean to put updates on here, had a bit of a hectic life lately...

But to be honest my weight hasn't changed alot i,m still aroung 80kg, but since on dianabol my bodyfat has seemed to of reduced alot, my trousers are a 32 inch waist and i now have to wear a belt but overall muscle seems more prominent, meaning as i havent lost weight but have lost body fat must mean my muscle mass has improoved.

Did take some stats at the very beginning and will update them soon.....But since i have been putting the tabs under my tongue i just feel like they are realy starting to work now..

In the last week my leg press went from 8 reps @ 180kg to 10 reps @ 200kg.

Other compounds have improoved on reps and around 2.5 kg to 5 kg per exercise.

And overall i have kept the strength increase while on and off .....

Sides well dunno what to expect, but feel dont think have suffered any apart from my sex drive seems more prominent after a couple of days on and the opposite a day after finishing...

But also nads seen rock hard on this 14 day cycle with an increased supply (if u know what i mean).. Trouble is hope it doesnt crash after the 14 day finish but hasnt been too bad on the last few !!!


----------



## samurai691436114498

Good info, cheers for that

know what you mean about the nads and sex drive etc


----------



## samurai691436114498

fits said:


> Hows it going stevo? what gains you made? side effects? didn't think any one else was actually doing it as no one has given any updates.
> 
> It would be good for you both to keep us updated?


Would like to hear from others,,,,, there was also someone starting the 10 week d-bol as a supplement cycle,,,,would also like to hear from anyone that has done or is doing that :beer1:


----------



## Cookie

> I am doin the same as urself 14x14 on 20mg ed, and had a few probs restarting after my first 14x14 but i am half way thru my 3rd 14x14 now


Why did you have problems restarting after the first one?



> I know OSC has tried and talked about this onthis thread


That I did and I still think for the very low dose user the best and safest option to use them..



> I tried the first couple that way, but it didnt suit me the times i was taking mine.


Your just fussy :tongue10:



> do they have a nasty taste when done like this?


Not really..but using them that way and checking the taste out(and smell) was one of the ways we used to test to see if the gear was legit or not in the old days all to do with the chemically taste/smell of different compounds...



> But to be honest my weight hasn't changed alot i,m still aroung 80kg, but since on dianabol my bodyfat has seemed to of reduced alot, my trousers are a 32 inch waist and i now have to wear a belt but overall muscle seems more prominent, meaning as i havent lost weight but have lost body fat must mean my muscle mass has improoved.


If the dose is low enough and the duration of use short enough you dont give the body chance or concern to bloat up with water but to just use the extra hormones for protein storage and muscle repair..



> But also nads seen rock hard on this 14 day cycle with an increased supply


The body will over compensate a little at the start a little bit like steroid rebounce when you come of a cycle correctly..



> Trouble is hope it doesnt crash after the 14 day finish but hasnt been too bad on the last few !!!


You may find it harder than s69 due to you using 20mg to his 15mg...

Why did you opt for 20mg?

I would be tempted to just use the 20mg for 10 days instead of 14 to not allow the body to get a panic on and start shutdown..


----------



## Jimmy1

its about time we stuck this thread


----------



## Cookie

Jimmy said:


> its about time we stuck this thread


AT LAST :lift:

Give that man some rep points.........:beer1:


----------



## Captain Hero

samurai69 said:


> Good info, cheers for that
> 
> know what you mean about the nads and sex drive etc


didnt know you got a sex drive boost and the like from being on Dbol, thought it was only the anabolics like Test that did that.

So is it all aas that can have that affect?


----------



## samurai691436114498

Jimmy said:


> its about time we stuck this thread


at least that will save me searching for it when i make an entry 

cheers


----------



## astro_warp

samurai69 said:


> there has been a bug going rounfd the wifes school, think i have picked it up there TBH, and with the self defence thing I have had a lot more close contact with more people than usual


Excellent gains sam69. I dont get bugs anymore - I take something called Reishi (a chinese mushroom) which you can get in a product called Triton-MRL. It has alot of uses, oxygenates the blood and boosts the immune system, the best antioxidant - research proven too.

Keep lifting


----------



## Stevo1436114499

OSC...Me and the missus was splitting up as i started my first 14x14 so TBH nearly stopped midway thru but still did my first 14 on, but knew realy it wasnt the right time so waited about 6 weeks i think before starting again and now have done 14 on 14 off and midway through next 14 on..so dunno whether its took time or its cus theyre under the tongue ??

But i think they taste ok to TBH a bit sweet and melt after about 5 mins ready for breakfast !!

Do you reckon 10 days on then with 20mg, I only used 20mg cus my tabs are 10mg each and thought right lets take two e.d.

My nads dont seem to shrink, but do feel like the sexdrive suffers a bit, so thats why im thinking will it worse this time cus the gear seems to be working stronger and my balls are aching sometimes...(maybe theyre gonna explode)

Sh1t knew i should of kept the missus a while longer ...lol


----------



## winger

astro_warp said:


> Excellent gains sam69. I dont get bugs anymore - I take something called Reishi (a chinese mushroom) which you can get in a product called Triton-MRL. It has alot of uses, oxygenates the blood and boosts the immune system, the best antioxidant - research proven too.
> 
> Keep lifting


I take this stuff. Click here.


----------



## Cookie

> Do you reckon 10 days on then with 20mg


I would try it on the next cycle and have half a grapefruit so 15-20 mins before you pop them under your tongue to aid absorbtion even more..



> But i think they taste ok to TBH a bit sweet


Thats how the old upjohn halotestin used to taste...mmmm..chemically and sweet...bring on the rage..lol..



> didnt know you got a sex drive boost and the like from being on Dbol, thought it was only the anabolics like Test that did that.
> 
> So is it all aas that can have that affect?


All gear made me very very horny and all gear is somewhat anabolic and androgenic just in different ratios...


----------



## fits

WHy did you decide to start at 15mg per day? has anyone tried 10 mg?

I also read recently online, some one suggesting 15 mg 5 days per week for 10 weeks, weekends off, any one tried this?

Keep the info comming lads top stuff!


----------



## samurai691436114498

fits said:


> WHy did you decide to start at 15mg per day? has anyone tried 10 mg?
> 
> I also read recently online, some one suggesting 15 mg 5 days per week for 10 weeks, weekends off, any one tried this?
> 
> Keep the info comming lads top stuff!


Thats the d-bol as a supplement cycle, someone on this thread a few pages back was talking about trying it.....would love to know the outcome too

only reason for 15 was because of the mention of 15mg ed for 10 weeks and cookie suggested 14 x 14 instead and stuck with15mg


----------



## fits

Cool, well if any one else has tried anyhting like this.................Let us know how its going:beer1: :beer1: :beer1:


----------



## Cookie

> WHy did you decide to start at 15mg per day? has anyone tried 10 mg?


10mg could/would work but I feel nearly everybody that read it was 10mg would just laugh and up the dosage to say 15 or 20 depending on what they could get tab size wise....even though boyer coe grew quite well on 10mg aday for some years in his early career...or so I have read/been told in the past....

10mg may also cause a little less shutdown than say 15 or 20 due to all the bodies feedback loops as some people do produce upwards of 15-20mg test aday so taking the dbol(10mg)early doors to co-inside with test levels and limit interference could actually work better in the long run and with the possiblity of no post cycle slump ....IN THEORY.....

Now another reason I mentioned 15mg was that I had done this 14x14 or as I originally did it 15x15 with some of the old stromba(stanazolol)tabs a number of years back and suffered no negative feedback what so ever just some small but steady gains in muscle quality and strength and no water retention,now when I tried doing it for 21 days I did notice the old boys start to hide away in their little home and not want to come out and play at the end of the cycle..so I just came to the conclusion that it is better in the long run both for health and continued small but steady gains to limit any form of internal hormonal shutdown/downgrade on any level and to try and keep the body in homeostatis(sp) at all times and to try and increase growth by finding a way to take gear in what I used to call "Stealth Mode" (without the body realising it was there)..

All this was consceived and used at a time when my health was dramatically failing and I should have and was told to never take gear again....so me being the pigheaded person I am I did my upmost to find a way that would/could allow me to continue competetive bodybuilding whilst trying to save my health and limit anything else going wrong...or failing that would allow me a tried an tested way back to competing again once the health issues were dealt with and I was firing on all cylinders again...

Right so there you have it, I`ve finally spilled my guts as to why I know the cycle works and how it came about, so stop belly aching and looking for ways to improve it etc just get your dbol and run the cycle as I originally intended it to be run for a full 12 months worth of cycles and you`ll be pleasantly suprised as to the results you`ll get from it if diet and training and mental focus and application are applied....

I`ll say this again " I never ever post/comment/recommend ANY diet or cycle or training system if I havent tried it myself first(unless it is Insulin which everybody knows I hate the use of with a passion) and seen some sort of result from it...

Right rant over...lol..



> well if any one else has tried anyhting like this.................Let us know how its going


I`ve answered this above maybe even invented the bloody thing,mmmm The One Smart Cookie Stealth Mode Cycle(OSCSMC) lmao...so stop hanging around the edges and get on with uit Fits and try the flipping thing yourself I know your wanting to...and come on some of you others pull your fingers out and give it a go dont just leave all the work down to S69 lets see a few more of you posting up that you are brave/daft/strong/crazy enough to go against all the latest crazy modes of drug use and cycling and give this cycle a go...


----------



## hackskii

I have read that if you take it first thing in the morning only you dont get shutdown due to your natural test production is highest in the morning.

Below is a graph to your natural high and low's of test production.

So in theory, you could do more but only if taken in the early morning to avoid shutdown.

This was kindof the theory in bridging.

The compound has to be fast enough acting so it is in and out before the body realises what you are doing.


----------



## Cookie

> So in theory, you could do more but only if taken in the early morning to avoid shutdown.


No you couldnt really take much more simply due to it messing up other hormonal levels and raising estrogen and prolactin levels and possibly starting to convert to DHT, which is another reason for staying on it for a short time as this would limit these side effects...

Now dbol above most if not all other compounds when used for short dose(10mg) and short duration(14 days max) has one nice little side effect in that it lowers cortisol levels so instantaniously puts you in an anabolic state and starts growth practically straight away,growth being laying down more protein and putting you in a positive nitrogen balance..


----------



## fits

ONE SMART COOKIE said:


> No you couldnt really take much more simply due to it messing up other hormonal levels and raising estrogen and prolactin levels and possibly starting to convert to DHT, which is another reason for staying on it for a short time as this would limit these side effects...


----------



## Cookie




----------



## firemansam

That was an interesting chat on warming up but i can tell you that when i am back to the training i will definately be using the 14/14 with gabba,trib, zinc,clen for first 7 days off then 7 days of nothing and repeat. i will also be warming up a little LOL

Am iright in the above OSC? as i lost my operating system on my pc and had to buy a new one so do not have any documents left, that is off the top of my head.


----------



## fits

My pleasure...

I didnt start shaving till after I started using gear(18yrs old) so I was probably like you and suffered from low test levels and the early gear cycles I did seemed to correct this problem for me which could mean that if a small dose is used and used correctly it may help to kickstart/correct any natural imbalances that people have....all theory mind you on personel experiance..

I know who your in india with and yeah I can understand you not wanting to get his goat up:rolleye11 we dont want another discussion like we had on the other board like we did about warming up properly


----------



## fits

firemansam said:


> That was an interesting chat on warming up but i can tell you that when i am back to the training i will definately be using the 14/14 with gabba,trib, zinc,clen for first 7 days off then 7 days of nothing and repeat. i will also be warming up a little LOL
> 
> Am iright in the above OSC? as i lost my operating system on my pc and had to buy a new one so do not have any documents left, that is off the top of my head.


 oh whats this then??? LOL gabba zink clen first 7?? was this a little extra tip OSC that the fireman has just shared? lol or was that posted on the forum?


----------



## Cookie

firemansam said:


> That was an interesting chat on warming up but i can tell you that when i am back to the training i will definately be using the 14/14 with gabba,trib, zinc,clen for first 7 days off then 7 days of nothing and repeat. i will also be warming up a little LOL
> 
> Am iright in the above OSC? as i lost my operating system on my pc and had to buy a new one so do not have any documents left, that is off the top of my head.


A little off but we can sort that out buddy once your fit and well again...



> YUP lol He comes from hard core gyms and its 'JUST DO IT' and it works for him, but i like your aproach, start small and dont do more than you have to, more thought behinde it.


Come from hardcore myself I just learnt to think outside of the box and question anything/everything and everyone... 

Who would have thought that after leaving school with naff all in qualifications I might end up actually half good at something...:rolleye11


----------



## firemansam

Always delivering cookie fair play to you LOL

yes the pun was intented


----------



## Cookie

> oh whats this then??? LOL gabba zink clen first 7?? was this a little extra tip OSC that the fireman has just shared? lol or was that posted on the forum?


It was something tailored to firemansam...so yeah an extra tip that was supposed to be a secret..lol...aaahhh well suppose its better to share something from time to time...good karma and all...lol.


----------



## hackskii

fits said:


> I am very impressed with the last response OSC thanks for that. the above answers my next question, which was how will it effect DHT as it is probably the moajour factor in why i have not tried AAS before. never mind th egyno, enlarged prostate etc i was worried about my hair..................which i think ill probably have to start shaving soon any how!


Testosterone converts to two different compounds in the body, both by enzyme activity.

First estradiol vie way of the aromatase enzyme or aromatization, Testosterone is metablized to 5a-Dihydrotestosterone (DHT) by the enzyme 5a-Reductase.

Both have a negative feedback on the HPTA, but both are needed by the body as well.

Estrogen keeps the pituitary gland sensitive to GnRH from the hypothalamus (upregulated).

You can block the aromatization into estrogen by several simple ways including diet, DIMM, Stinging nettle, zinc, all natural approaches but it can be done chemically with uses like arimidex, femera, among others.

DHT can be blocked naturally (so I read) by the herb Saw Palmetto, but I am not too sure about this.

It can be chemically blocked by the prescription drug proscar.

DHT is a androgen and very similar to testosterone, which is necessary for puberty and the development of the prostate and genitalia (penis, scrotum and urethra).


----------



## firemansam

ooppss sorry fella. Thought it had been mentioned before.


----------



## samurai691436114498

Took OSC's advice and didnt go back on, so am going to start again on monday 1st Nov, which will still allow for one last cycle before hitting uk

Have managed to stay the same weight, which is amazing considering how much was coming out - both ends (i know, too much info)......glad weight is ok

Back in gym this week and workouts have been going well, missed leg day again as i feel lower back has not recovered fully


----------



## Cookie

> Back in gym this week and workouts have been going well, missed leg day again as i feel lower back has not recovered fully


Glad to see you are on the mend bro...

Are you using any ice and heat therapy to quicken up any healing that may be muscular?


----------



## samurai691436114498

ONE SMART COOKIE said:


> Glad to see you are on the mend bro...
> 
> Are you using any ice and heat therapy to quicken up any healing that may be muscular?


No, pretty sure its compression thats causing the problem,,,,,,I am doing a massage on a woman next week, and she does shiatsu so will get her to have a look as a trade off

I am just being cautious as i have these self defence things and could do without injury


----------



## winger

hackskii said:


> You can block the aromatization into estrogen by several simple ways including diet, DIMM, Stinging nettle, zinc, all natural approaches but it can be done chemically with uses like arimidex, femera, among others.


Nice


----------



## Cookie

> No, pretty sure its compression thats causing the problem,,,,,,I am doing a massage on a woman next week, and she does shiatsu so will get her to have a look as a trade off


Maybe you should look into the alexander technique to help here then...

Dont know much myself about it(yet) but read only good stuff so far..


----------



## samurai691436114498

ONE SMART COOKIE said:


> Maybe you should look into the alexander technique to help here then...
> 
> Dont know much myself about it(yet) but read only good stuff so far..


Good point, i have a book on it somewhere


----------



## samurai691436114498

Back on cycle this week after stomach upset etc......

Takeing tabs at lunch time instead of morning, so i have had a couple of meals before taking tabs, just incase they were causing the problem

otherwise back on course

got two more thursdays of self defence stuff to go so will not train legs until after then.......having said that getting up of the floor 40 or so times in a session is probably working them a bit


----------



## samurai691436114498

had to miss a weeks worth of training due to injury and ilness, but decided to continue with the cycle and TBH i am glad i did, i have stayed at 95 kg but lost some BF so look better .......

I am back training this week and things are feeling good

I have one more cycle before going back to the uk and will be glad if i put on a 1lb or so before then that would mean 15 stone, and i will settle for that

Then next year i will take 3 months off cycle and then do april, may and june the same cycles as this year unless i dont see any gains

whilst i am in the uk i will pick up some supps trib and fish oils etc for between cycles (though i have a contact who can get me US supps sent through to their forces PO so maybe i will look at us Co.'s too)

*Since starting on 6th June i have gone from 88.5 kg (194.7 lbs) to 95.5 kg ( 210.1 lbs) thats 15.4 lbs gained in under 6 months and still one more cycle to go*

My diet has been good sometimes and i have had a few bad weeks and a few average weeks

I have had a couple of mild ilnesses and a couple of injuries.....other than these set backs my training has been pretty consistant and strength gains have continued too.

THIS SYSTEM MAY NOT BE FOR EVERYBODY, BUT IF YOU ARE PLANNING A FIRST CYCLE AND ARE NOT IN TOO MUCH OF A HURRY THIS IS DEFINATELY WORTH A LOOK


----------



## firemansam

Congratulations mate, it has taken a lot of dedication from yourself as well so don't forget that major factor.

Well done


----------



## Slaine

How long wil dbol stay in your system for any 1 know ?


----------



## hackskii

Slaine said:


> How long wil dbol stay in your system for any 1 know ?


About 24 hours.


----------



## fits

OI!!!!

stop highjacking the thread! can you give some updates S69? any one else have info that has tried the same or similar cycles?


----------



## winger

fits said:


> OI!!!!
> 
> stop highjacking the thread! can you give some updates S69? any one else have info that has tried the same or similar cycles?


Bump for samurai69! I feel ya fits.


----------



## fits

winger said:


> Bump for samurai69! I feel ya fits.


   I just tfind this thread very interesting and refer to it alot and i am running my net at a whoooping 29 kbps so it take ages to open pages so i can do with out the extra stuff LOL not offence intended ofcourse!

S69, i think your steady gains are very interesting, think ill give this a go when im back in UK, was going to try whilst back here in india but decided too late and did not leave enough time to get D-bol!

All seems like it workd out like OSC was suggesting it might. What were your gains like before you started? and how has your diet/training changed from before? or hasn't it?

If the extra weight was water, woudl you start to loose it in your two wees off? do you feel it is muscle you have gained?

cheers pal!


----------



## samurai691436114498

fits said:


> I just tfind this thread very interesting and refer to it alot and i am running my net at a whoooping 29 kbps so it take ages to open pages so i can do with out the extra stuff LOL not offence intended ofcourse!
> 
> S69, i think your steady gains are very interesting, think ill give this a go when im back in UK, was going to try whilst back here in india but decided too late and did not leave enough time to get D-bol!
> 
> All seems like it workd out like OSC was suggesting it might. What were your gains like before you started? and how has your diet/training changed from before? or hasn't it?
> 
> If the extra weight was water, woudl you start to loose it in your two wees off? do you feel it is muscle you have gained?
> 
> cheers pal!


some good questions there.....

This last 2 weeks off, i have cut food a bit (just to cut up a bit - i seem to have burned fat and it doesnt seem to have crept into the muscle at all) and increased reps on sets by quite a bit (due to back problems that i do not want to flare up - and also have been doing some more Martial arts stuff and wanted to speed up punches and stuff).

even after doint the above i have stayed at 95kg which is excellent, i have resigned my self a bit that i am not gounh to hit 100kg before xmas so have settled on hitting (and keeping) 210lbs.

my last 2 week cycle of this year i am bumping up protein and calories again and going back to heavy weights (as the d-bol seems to prefer it that way) around to 4 - 8 rep range

My diet changed in as far as i cleaned it up most of the time.....having said that 6 months is a long time and there have been a fair few times that i have been BAD :rolleye11 .................Training didnt change too much really, though looking back on records, as training intensity increased during workouts then there was a drop off of reps on some exercises and also an occasional drop in sets (ie 3 sets insted of 4 or 4 instead of 5-----never lower than 3 sets).

as far as water, i would say there isnt much chance of water bloat over 2 weeks on that low a dose, so i dont think much if any of the weight gain has been water........on cycle i get some back pain in the second week and for some reason the anterior tibialis (front shin) hurts like mad about halfway through the second week.....both are probably from water to some degree

as for gains made before and after, i was making slow steady gains before this with a fair amount of sticking points, but at 42 (41 when i started) things were definately slowing down...........so any boosts that supplementation could provide were probably necessary 

As i have said from just after the very first 2 week cycle everything OSC has said have been proved right. :beer1: *OSC*

As written above, i am going to take about 3 months off cycle, during this time i am going to split training between higher rep and heavy training and build on my cardio (which i have neglected - on cycle), then i am going to continue on the d-bol for the three months upto june - - - - So my complete year will be documented here, after which i am going to look at similar cycle with either t-bol or var for some good strength gains so *OSC if you are looking at this please give me your ideas or comments*


----------



## Cookie

> About 24 hours.


Dbol takes about 40hrs to clear the system...



> All seems like it workd out like OSC was suggesting it might.


Doesn`t it always...lmao..



> As i have said from just after the very first 2 week cycle everything OSC has said have been proved right. OSC


Been my pleasure to help and to finally see this idea I had sooo long ago finally get a "proper" run to see if it works and it does..thanks for having the confidence in me to try it.....



> after which i am going to look at similar cycle with either t-bol or var for some good strength gains so OSC if you are looking at this please give me your ideas or comments


I originally did the my trial runs with winstrol and liked it so it would be interesting to see what the out come would be long term with that compound,plus there would be less chance of any water retention with winny so the gains may be slower but I would think more noticable..

Stregnth wise I always liked anavar...might take a little juggling due to the quick strength gains anavar can give which could lead to big drops post cycle but with the cycle being short it may work in its favour in that the gains might not be as much compared to a longer cycle plus less chance of injury due to the anavar making people too strong too quickly that the muscles cannot keep pace with the tendons....

I`ll mull over it for the next few months and we`ll have something for you when the time is right.....


----------



## samurai691436114498

ONE SMART COOKIE said:


> Stregnth wise I always liked anavar...might take a little juggling due to the quick strength gains anavar can give which could lead to big drops post cycle but with the cycle being short it may work in its favour in that the gains might not be as much compared to a longer cycle plus less chance of injury due to the anavar making people too strong too quickly that the muscles cannot keep pace with the tendons....


tendons should be pretty strong as they have always had time to keep up with muscle gains ,being natural for so long

with the above, what would be the better for the joints (or the least damaging at least)

definately like this idea though, keep thinking about this one mate.....as i said, going to keep this up until i have done a full circle (6TH JUNE 2006)


----------



## fits

Top thread laes!!!

Loads of info here! and i will be giving this ago when i get back to UK (if i cant get dbol out here)

I dotn know what T Bol is so ill go look it up now!

So you gained over 15 lbs in 6 months (or a little less) i think thats brilliant, no sides (apart from back) not too hard on your body. In 6 months what would the usual bb get in? one or two cycles? maybe an 8 to 12 weeek cycle then 3 months of? and after the water etc comes offf, how many will have a 15lbs gain? these are genuine questions lol

great stuff S69, will u be putting before and after pics upover xmas? or at the end next june maybe?


----------



## Cookie

> with the above, what would be the better for the joints (or the least damaging at least)


I cannot see either affecting joints...but cost wise the winny would be the better option, then again the anavar could give some nice slow solid gains...so maybe might be worth doing 6 months worth of cycles of each to see what you get out of them....

My personel preference would be winstrol...but thats just me, I always liked winstrol.



> So you gained over 15 lbs in 6 months (or a little less) i think thats brilliant, no sides (apart from back) not too hard on your body. In 6 months what would the usual bb get in? one or two cycles? maybe an 8 to 12 weeek cycle then 3 months of? and after the water etc comes offf, how many will have a 15lbs gain? these are genuine questions lol


Most of these have been answered in previous posts...lol...but yeah some would get maybe 3 cycles done if they were a shic cycle(Short High Intensity Course) which is roughly 1 month on 1 month off.....usually lots of gear used and hit it hard then rest...gains come thick and fast but my worry is, would the side effects catch up at a later date due to the amounts some people use

and how much of the gains are initially water..

Thats why I feel and always have that yeah shorter cycles are the way to go but the dosage has also to be kept low as to avoid side effects and that if the body doesnt realise that the gear is in there in the first place then the likelyhood of sides happening to any great degree are vastly reduced, but your still going to get gains from the small amount of gear used and can continue to get gains for a far greater amount of time without burning out the body and oversaturating the receptor sites so ever needing to up the dosages every few cycles to keep gains coming...which could lead to health probs later on, and some post cycles crashes also..imo...

I`m just glad that S69 tried it and found it works(like I said it would..lol) but as for it being used by others regulary...mmmm possibly not as with all things bodybuilding it has to be extreme to work or its shunned and ridiculed...even if the newer idea kills dead all those old myths(which we have a lot off in bbing) and myths in this sport are hard to die.....

I`ve said this before if this cycle is used and used right with 100% correct diet and training the gains would be outstanding...I think year on year gains like S69 has had so far and maybe even more......


----------



## samurai691436114498

fits said:


> Top thread laes!!!
> 
> great stuff S69, will u be putting before and after pics upover xmas? or at the end next june maybe?


well, got to get a new camera (over in uk at christmas - cheaper there) so i will post up some picks when i get back.......

dont know how they will look as i am really planning a big junkfest while in the uk (make up for a 4 year break) so will definately be heavier, but probably fat and fluid.

doner kebabs, fried fresh cod, real sausages, pork pies, real BACON sarnies and xmas dinner, plus a fair bit of booze, english beer :beer1:

should get 2 or 3 training sessions per week in though :lift:

OSC, if i had less of a break (than the 3 months planned) what would be the best thing, as i am planning on hitting cardio quite hard and lifting lighter and for higher reps during that time (1 to cut up a bit, but mostly for fitness as i am doing a lot mor MA training - certainly over those first 3 months)

Would i be better to continue cycle and hope the d-bol helps me retain the muscle - i am not planning on any real dietry changes, as i reckon the increased cardio and change of workout will do the fat loss for me, may actually have to increase cals during this time

Cardio will be mostly cycling, but i will have to run a bit as in march i will be doing an 8k fun run and i would quite like to get my erg time back up (if it doesnt hurt my back too much).


----------



## samurai691436114498

ONE SMART COOKIE said:


> I`ve said this before if this cycle is used and used right with 100% correct diet and training the gains would be outstanding...I think year on year gains like S69 has had so far and maybe even more......


TBH, i think gains better than mine are more than possible, i am probably not as motivated as some could be, diet has only been 100% for about 50% of the time, I have no plans to compete or similar

When i started this, i was sure it would work, i am glad it did, probably more than i expected, its been cheap to run too, 1 pack of nolva only 1/2 used and still got plenty more d-bol (apex sell in 500's) certaily enough for the remainder of my year on.

Actually OSC, depending on the dosages you suggest on t-bol, var or winny, cycles shouldnt be too expensive.


----------



## Cookie

> OSC, if i had less of a break (than the 3 months planned) what would be the best thing, as i am planning on hitting cardio quite hard and lifting lighter and for higher reps during that time (1 to cut up a bit, but mostly for fitness as i am doing a lot mor MA training - certainly over those first 3 months)
> 
> Would i be better to continue cycle and hope the d-bol helps me retain the muscle - i am not planning on any real dietry changes, as i reckon the increased cardio and change of workout will do the fat loss for me, may actually have to increase cals during this time
> 
> Cardio will be mostly cycling, but i will have to run a bit as in march i will be doing an 8k fun run and i would quite like to get my erg time back up (if it doesnt hurt my back too much).


I would just continue to run the 14x14 even with the new program your going to be doing..it`ll be interesting to see how the system will work with a cutting type regime(I already know the answer but will be nice to see the results in print on the net...lol)and how it will effect things like cardio and runnibng etc.....



> Actually OSC, depending on the dosages you suggest on t-bol, var or winny, cycles shouldnt be too expensive.


Dosage wise I would stick with the 15mg one you are on...no need to go any higher imho....I would get freaky strong on 12-15mg anavar a day..we will just have to alter your supps and diet to suit the anavar compared to other compounds..

Why alter a winning dosage...plus there are some stuff that can be done to improve absorbtion which have been dicussed before to get the max out of every bit you take....


----------



## fits

ONE SMART COOKIE said:


> I would just continue to run the 14x14 even with the new program your going to be doing..it`ll be interesting to see how the system will work with a cutting type regime(I already know the answer but will be nice to see the results in print on the net...lol)and how it will effect things like cardio and runnibng etc.....
> 
> Dosage wise I would stick with the 15mg one you are on...no need to go any higher imho....I would get freaky strong on 12-15mg anavar a day..we will just have to alter your supps and diet to suit the anavar compared to other compounds..
> 
> Why alter a winning dosage...plus there are some stuff that can be done to improve absorbtion which have been dicussed before to get the max out of every bit you take....


What kind of results would you expect from winny?

I was going to try the D bol but didnt get it in time before i came back to india, i can buy winny over the counter though.........woudl it be worth a go......


----------



## winger

fits said:


> What kind of results would you expect from winny?
> 
> I was going to try the D bol but didnt get it in time before i came back to india, i can buy winny over the counter though.........woudl it be worth a go......


Ask Hackskii about winny. :rolleye11

After 17 days his tes levels were in the toilet.  But then again that is Hackskii............lol.


----------



## samurai691436114498

winger said:


> But then again that is Hackskii............lol.


 :rolleye11 :tongue10:


----------



## winger

samurai69 said:


> :rolleye11 :tongue10:


I want to hop on this one as well! :tongue10:


----------



## Cookie

> What kind of results would you expect from winny?
> 
> I was going to try the D bol but didnt get it in time before i came back to india, i can buy winny over the counter though.........woudl it be worth a go......


Results wise...good...a lot less likely to put any water on...and defo worth a try...winny was the first drug I tried with this system and it worked ok for me...



> Ask Hackskii about winny. :rolleye11
> 
> After 17 days his tes levels were in the toilet.  But then again that is Hackskii............lol.


Well he wont be on for 17days and hackskii was probably using more than 15mgs aday...


----------



## samurai691436114498

Fits, if you go with the winny, post up the info and progress mate, as its probably what i am going to do next (or var)......would be good to see how it goes with you ie weight stats etc


----------



## fits

ONE SMART COOKIE said:


> Results wise...good...a lot less likely to put any water on...and defo worth a try...winny was the first drug I tried with this system and it worked ok for me...
> 
> Well he wont be on for 17days and hackskii was probably using more than 15mgs aday...


 So the same deal? 10/15mg winny per day, taken in the morning, with grapefruit juice (maybe) 2 weeks on two off, and the results in size/strength to be as good as Dbol? any sides more likey?


----------



## winger

fits said:


> So the same deal? 10/15mg winny per day, taken in the morning, with grapefruit juice (maybe) 2 weeks on two off, and the results in size/strength to be as good as Dbol? any sides more likey?


You wont hold as much water, but water does give you strength. Leverage factor.

Hackskii did 50mg tabs.

I did 3, 10mg tabs for 17 days and made gains without any noticable shutdown. Each 10mg tab I took felt like my bp got elevated.


----------



## Cookie

fits said:


> So the same deal? 10/15mg winny per day, taken in the morning, with grapefruit juice (maybe) 2 weeks on two off, and the results in size/strength to be as good as Dbol? any sides more likey?


Yeah same deal as with dbol...but I wouldnt use the grapefruit just yet...just see how you go without it first couple cycles....

Results wise...less water but gains will look more solid and the physique should take on a harder appearence...


----------



## fits

ONE SMART COOKIE said:


> Yeah same deal as with dbol...but I wouldnt use the grapefruit just yet...just see how you go without it first couple cycles....
> 
> Results wise...less water but gains will look more solid and the physique should take on a harder appearence...


 Ok, so what would you suggest i start at? 10mg or 15? im sure you mentioned S69 could have started lower than he did? or shoudl i just go with 15mg as we know it works......with Dbol any way...?

By the way OSC if you have any of your secrets you want to pass on feel free to PM me lol

oh, and do i run it on its own?

Cheers


----------



## Cookie

> Ok, so what would you suggest i start at? 10mg or 15? im sure you mentioned S69 could have started lower than he did? or shoudl i just go with 15mg as we know it works......with Dbol any way...?


I would be tempted to try 10mg for the first 2 cycles...see how it goes and then decide if you need to up it to 15mg...



> oh, and do i run it on its own?


Yes..but I do have another idea for a stack to be used later....



> By the way OSC if you have any of your secrets you want to pass on feel free to PM me lol


LMAO....lots secrets just not sure if I can share them...

I am working with S69 real soon to try a "NEW" delivery method which should help tremendously with getting some more gains.....More on that next year...


----------



## samurai691436114498

ONE SMART COOKIE said:


> LMAO....lots secrets just not sure if I can share them...
> 
> I am working with S69 real soon to try a "NEW" delivery method which should help tremendously with getting some more gains.....More on that next year...


interesting stuff (ssshhhhh!!!  ) looking forward to it 



:rolleye11


----------



## fits

Ok so 10mg per day, i'll be happy with that as there will be less spare test to change into (or do whatever it does) DHT and speen up the hair loss lol

I have never used AAS before so forgive my ignorance.

So i should not experiance any shut down, but what are the most obvious signs for sides i should look for? I know the whole point is to reduce them but if i was to get them?? also shouls i have anything to hand incase i see signs of sides?

Cheers guys


----------



## fat matt

whats the benifit of grape fruit juice ? does it afect the break down of the drug or absorbtion ?

i love all these little tricks..

all the best matt


----------



## winger

fits said:


> but what are the most obvious signs for sides i should look for? I know the whole point is to reduce them but if i was to get them?? also shouls i have anything to hand incase i see signs of sides?
> 
> Cheers guys


 Obvious signs on cycle are itchy or tender nipples and water retention that will elevate blood pressure. Nolva for the itchy nipples and keep the salt way down to avoid water retention. I really dont think you will run into any problems at that low of a dose and that short of time. 



fat matt said:


> whats the benifit of grape fruit juice ? does it afect the break down of the drug or absorbtion ?
> 
> i love all these little tricks..
> 
> all the best matt


I will leave this up to the Cookie Monster....lol.

Grapefruit in general is really good for fat lose, that's whole grapefruits mate.

Welcome to the board fat matt!


----------



## fits

Just wondering, what about the possibility that the winny will just be enough to shut me down and nothing else (keep being told this by some one)


----------



## Cookie

> So i should not experiance any shut down, but what are the most obvious signs for sides i should look for? I know the whole point is to reduce them but if i was to get them?? also shouls i have anything to hand incase i see signs of sides?


At 10mg aday i cant see any form of hutdown happening really not if you are only on for 14 days...unless somebody has spiked your winny with anadrol then you`ll shutdown...lol



> whats the benifit of grape fruit juice ? does it afect the break down of the drug or absorbtion ?


grapefriut blocks an enzyme the liver releases to attack invaders(drugs/compounds) in the system to protect the body...problem is if you do it too often you end up blocking the one bodily enzyme that does all it can to stop the body from getting things like cancer...so not wise to use all the time and not really needed unless you have reached a plataeu with what you are taking....



> Just wondering, what about the possibility that the winny will just be enough to shut me down and nothing else (keep being told this by some one)


Your body is not going to completely shutdown in 14days on 10mg aday...your going to end up convincing yourself that you are going to shutdown so you will....mind over matter..


----------



## fits

ok nice one

its just that i share an aprtment with some one that takes "proper courses" and he was saying that a small amount like that woudl just shut you down possibaly


----------



## samurai691436114498

How does the winny affect the stomach, i know some people get stomach problems on d-bol

*OSC can you elaborate on this*

"grapefriut blocks an enzyme the liver releases to attack invaders(drugs/compounds) in the system to protect the body...problem is if you do it too often you end up blocking the one bodily enzyme that does all it can to stop the body from getting things like cancer...so not wise to use all the time and not really needed unless you have reached a plataeu with what you are taking...."

*The bit about too often*


----------



## fat matt

thanks guys for the responce. that grapfruit thing sounds nasty..

can we have some pics to see if there is any change yet samuri? or is it to soon to tell.


----------



## samurai691436114498

fat matt said:


> thanks guys for the responce. that grapfruit thing sounds nasty..
> 
> can we have some pics to see if there is any change yet samuri? or is it to soon to tell.


going to put stats up at the end of this last week

will post up pics after uk holiday (dont know what they will be like, i expect to put on some BF while over there)

then will post up stats and pics again when i resume in march then again at the end of my 1 year on in june


----------



## winger

*samurai69 *wont post a pic untill he has a really nice tan........lol.


----------



## samurai691436114498

winger said:


> *samurai69 *wont post a pic untill he has a really nice tan........lol.


You Know it mate  , been to the beach today, not quite hot enough to strip off completely, but face got some sun  (19 or 20 c )


----------



## winger

samurai69 said:


> You Know it mate  , been to the beach today, not quite hot enough to strip off completely, but face got some sun  (19 or 20 c )


How is that going to help us when you dont even show your face?........lol.

For me it is easier to just use the tanning booth.


----------



## samurai691436114498

Quick update, in second day of my last cycle (5 days to go) and weighed in at 97 to 97.5 kg so almost made the 100kg (may still get there with 5 days left)

Been taking tabs last thing at night and stomach feels better for it for some reason, also no anxiety attacks at night (not sure if that was anything to do with d-bol TBH)


----------



## fits

GOod stuff S69! hope you make your goal! you have made very respectable gains though! if kept on your two or so months off, then its very good indeed!

all i need now is for OSC to tell me 100% that winny dosen't have too long a halflife and ill be having a go lol


----------



## winger

Or you could ask the question about bridging gear. That's taking it first thing in the morning when levels are high and stopping around lunch time or sooner for almost no shutdown.  I say all gear can shut you down, but it does make sense.


----------



## fits

winger said:


> Or you could ask the question about bridging gear. That's taking it first thing in the morning when levels are high and stopping around lunch time or sooner for almost no shutdown.  I say all gear can shut you down, but it does make sense.


 Well yeah thats the whole point is't it, what OSC is talkign about, its just i need it confirmed LOL


----------



## winger

fits said:


> Well yeah thats the whole point is't it, what OSC is talkign about, its just i need it confirmed LOL


I like the way you think.


----------



## Cookie

> all i need now is for OSC to tell me 100% that winny dosen't have too long a halflife and ill be having a go


You`ll be fine just get it done.......


----------



## winger

ONE SMART COOKIE said:


> You`ll be fine just get it done.......


I think I love you


----------



## fits

ONE SMART COOKIE said:


> You`ll be fine just get it done.......


 ok ok ok LOL


----------



## winger

fits said:


> ok ok ok LOL


You better do what your told..........lol...........ha ha ha ha


----------



## peachy

really looking forward to an update on this thread!


----------



## romeo69

Wots the half life of winny?


----------



## zack

peachy said:


> really looking forward to an update on this thread!


Bump.

How about an update Sam?

Have you kept the gains?

Are you back on the cycle?


----------



## samurai691436114498

zack said:


> Bump.
> 
> How about an update Sam?
> 
> Have you kept the gains?
> 
> Are you back on the cycle?


Heres an update then

took last of cycle about 10th december......flew back to england 16th dec for a holiday (first time back for 2 years).....had a really good holiday, went to some great gyms (managed to train 4 times in total) probably over did it on the kebabs and christmas food, so was a little ill for a week of my holiday.

returned to portugal 5th january, (planned new workout to start immediately 3 days full body workouts....with 2 days cardio) went to gym first full body day and again for cardio on the following day....................Unfortunately since then i have been pretty ill with a chest infection (bad cough, flu like symproms, shallow breathing , blah blah blah)

so its now the 19th of jan and i am not expecting to get back in the gym until at least the 23 rd of this month. So will probably start a 5x5 plan when i start up as i have probably lost a little muscle along with any fat (diet has been poor, no appetite etc)

So on the scales as of 19th i am down to just on the 95 kg mark, maybe a fraction under, but i am sure once back trainingb that some of that will go back quite quickly

So in all reality if i had not been ill i probably wouldnt have dropped quite so much, probably would have stayed around 97kg, but TBH 95 kg is still way up on what i was at the start.

I was going to post pics, but i will wait a few weeks now (see if i can get back to about 97 first)

I am not starting a new cycle until about march time.......this will allow time for the body to get used to training again then wheen i resume cycle the reaction should be quicker (sort of like it was when i first started)....

as far as this journal goes, i plan on keeping it updated until june/july this year (06), which will give me one full year on cycle .....the plan after that is a similar cycle on either winny, t-bol or var, not 100% decided yet, but that will be a new journal 

:lift:


----------



## samurai691436114498

quick update, now 12 of feb and i have been back in the gym for two weeks....weights going back up quite quickly and with the BF that i lost through the ilness i am starting to gain back some quality muscle too......back on cycle at the end of next month


----------



## winger

Glad your feeling better and your finding your groove.


----------



## RipCord

Great Thread. Currently running 14x14 q/ 10 mg dbol. On my second 14 days off. It is truly a good cycle. I have nothing to compare it to b/c it is my first. But i am very pleased with what is happening so far, and the fact that it is more 'healthy' or 'health conscoius(sp)' then running another style of cycle!.... Cheers S69 and OSC!!!!


----------



## samurai691436114498

RipCord said:


> Great Thread. Currently running 14x14 q/ 10 mg dbol. On my second 14 days off. It is truly a good cycle. I have nothing to compare it to b/c it is my first. But i am very pleased with what is happening so far, and the fact that it is more 'healthy' or 'health conscoius(sp)' then running another style of cycle!.... Cheers S69 and OSC!!!!


Its our pleasure, well mine anyway  , keep us posted.......it was my first cycle too, how is the 10mg fairing up...i did 15mg, but am thinking 10 would be good too


----------



## RipCord

From my experience my body reacts very well to anything I take. It could be mental. But for an example my training partners says to me "you say what I think"&#8230;lol he is big and slow. Anyways&#8230; 10 mg fairs up very nicely, started at 165.5 lbs at the beginning of my first 14 on, I was 174.3 lbs at the beginning of my second 14 on (only weigh at the beginning of each 14 day on). It could be water but at 10 mg I think not. I am training 100% VERY direct at the moment, training for my up coming lacrosse season. My diet is spot on as far as "eat as much as you're a$$ can when your hungry (only very healthy but could need some suggestions on how far healthy goes)&#8230;"

For my experience the 10mg is amazing. But I'm the kind of guy to take creatine and notice size/strength gains by each day. I carry a book I call my bible to the gym with me, it is basically everything/anything I do there. From my experience, 10mg is an excellent start. You (S69) got me on this idea and OSC corrected our wrongs. I pride myself in working with my body and never trying to hurt it. I hear some guys I know say "I would never do steroids" and I think: **** man you don't work hard enough to do them. Me I have done me research since April of 2005. And I am very confident in my decision with the 14 on 14 off. So far it is working great for me. I honestly think that all my cycles will be devised around the "idea" 14x14. But that is for a later tail.

I do have a question, S69 you ran this program for basically 7 months. Is this the proper length for this type of cycle? What would be the maximum for a cycle like this? I know you may not have these answers but I hope OSC looks on this. I finally got around to reading the FULL S69 journal and I learned very much (kind of makes you want to pick OSC brain)!

Cheers


----------



## samurai691436114498

RipCord said:


> I do have a question, S69 you ran this program for basically 7 months. Is this the proper length for this type of cycle? What would be the maximum for a cycle like this? I know you may not have these answers but I hope OSC looks on this. I finally got around to reading the FULL S69 journal and I learned very much (kind of makes you want to pick OSC brain)!
> 
> Cheers


Actually still running it...i decided to take only a 3 month break and then will resume and continue on for the remainder of the year

reason for break . . . . trip to england, then 6 weeks of illnes and a layoff from the gym, so need to get fully back into training, and get strength back up before continuing

I think a full year is possible, as long as you have the slightly longer than 14 day (maybe 3 weeks+) breaks every 3 or 4 months...........thats also on 15mg, probably on 10 you would need the breaks less frequently

Glad to hear its working well....if only more people started to understand this is SO possible to get results this way

Good luck with the Lacrosse season, i played it for the first time last year....excellent and fun game...tough too


----------



## Cookie

> Cheers S69 and OSC!!!!


Glad I could have helped....



> I do have a question, S69 you ran this program for basically 7 months. Is this the proper length for this type of cycle? What would be the maximum for a cycle like this? I know you may not have these answers but I hope OSC looks on this.


Ideally I thought that when I started all this that it could be run continually for the full 12 months but now I am of the thinking that an extra break would be needed midway through, plus I`m also playing with the idea of tweaking it a bit more to get a better health responce and to allow it to be used for a number of reasons and lengths...more later chaps...



> how is the 10mg fairing up...i did 15mg, but am thinking 10 would be good too


I`m off the feeling that 10mg aday is the way to go for the first 6 cycles atleast.....



> (kind of makes you want to pick OSC brain)!


LOL...anytime always here to help.......just dont pick too hard or it might hurt....


----------



## RipCord

ONE SMART COOKIE said:


> LOL...anytime always here to help.......just dont pick too hard or it might hurt....


Dont you worry about that lol.

I plan on running my 14 on 14 off till around september or just after september. Being as i started on Jan 19 it should be around 7 months till i take my first long term break. But we will see how it goes.


----------



## zack

ONE SMART COOKIE said:


> Glad I could have helped....
> 
> Ideally I thought that when I started all this that it could be run continually for the full 12 months but now I am of the thinking that an extra break would be needed midway through, plus I`m also playing with the idea of tweaking it a bit more to get a better health responce and to allow it to be used for a number of reasons and lengths...more later chaps...


What sort of break are you talking about OSC?


----------



## samurai691436114498

RipCord said:


> Dont you worry about that lol.
> 
> I plan on running my 14 on 14 off till around september or just after september. Being as i started on Jan 19 it should be around 7 months till i take my first long term break. But we will see how it goes.


Personally i would look at a slightly extended break at the end of the third month, maybe a week or 2 extra. Thats what i did and i think it defiantely helped

.


----------



## samurai691436114498

Oh well i am starting my next run on the 27th of march (2 weeks on two weeks off) and right up until the 4th of june...........That would have been a complete year running the 14x14

This time though I am only going to be running 10mg per day (talking to OSC we reckon the gains can still be made on this dosage).

For the first 2 weeks on and 2 weeks off, i also wont be changing my diet at all........interesting to see what happens

The following 2 week cycle and there after will be on a more balanced, high protein diet.

Training at the moment (and continuing) is 5x5 full body workouts done 3 times per week, with the exercises (compound) changing every 2 weeks.

.


----------



## samurai691436114498

Just checked my weight as of 20th march and i am hovering around 93 kg

I have decided that i am going to start cycle early by 1 week, but on 5mg for the first week and 10mg for the second week. If i have gained any weight at the end of the second week i will take my 14 days off, if there has been no significant gain in either weight or strength, then i will continue for a further 7 days at 10mg, this is just to see what if anything 5mg per day will do......I am interested to see lowest dose gains

Training will continue 3 days at 5x5

diet for first cycle will also be un changed

there is a fitness exhibition on 1st april and i will purchase a new load of my favorite protein (2 for 1 offer) and some creatine for the next 3 month cycle.

only cycling creatine in the off weeks

.


----------



## RipCord

Keep us posted S69.


----------



## Lux

Hey Samurai, i finally decided to register on here as i got my dbols today. So many forums but so little time, but now i'm going to have a dabble i need to be on an appropriate forum!

I'm impressed by your attitude to go against the grain and stick with the 14 on 14 off plan. And like quite a few others (i presume), i am now about to give it a whirl. Got my Ramopharmin 5mg dbols today and will start the first 14 on Monday, i've just got to decide between one of two routines to use. Not after any advice really as theres plenty of info in this journal and in the steroid forum. I just wanted to let you know that there is somebody else out there willing to give it a go, and i'll update over the next couple of months


----------



## samurai691436114498

Lux said:


> Hey Samurai, i finally decided to register on here as i got my dbols today. So many forums but so little time, but now i'm going to have a dabble i need to be on an appropriate forum!
> 
> I'm impressed by your attitude to go against the grain and stick with the 14 on 14 off plan. And like quite a few others (i presume), i am now about to give it a whirl. Got my Ramopharmin 5mg dbols today and will start the first 14 on Monday, i've just got to decide between one of two routines to use. Not after any advice really as theres plenty of info in this journal and in the steroid forum. I just wanted to let you know that there is somebody else out there willing to give it a go, and i'll update over the next couple of months


Thats really great, keep us posted on how it goes  

:lift:


----------



## winger

Welcome to the board Lux and keep us posted.


----------



## xcryption

i start mine tomorrow too - same as lux (sorry if ure names spelled wrong i cant find ure post now and dunno if its lex or lux! lol)

i got 100 tabs at 5mg each.

samurai - have u got any before and after pics?

is it best to space the tabs out throughout the day or take them all in the morning etc?

i was told that taking 15mg a day for the first 3 weeks and then 30mg a day for the rest and then back to 15mg a day when i have only 15 tabs left is a good cycle. so im going to try that and record my gains... then i'll try ure 14/14 thing!

the person i got the tabs from uses them himself and thinks they're great. he's huge so they must work on this cycle!


----------



## samurai691436114498

xcryption said:


> i start mine tomorrow too - same as lux (sorry if ure names spelled wrong i cant find ure post now and dunno if its lex or lux! lol)
> 
> i got 100 tabs at 5mg each.
> 
> samurai - have u got any before and after pics?
> 
> is it best to space the tabs out throughout the day or take them all in the morning etc?
> 
> i was told that taking 15mg a day for the first 3 weeks and then 30mg a day for the rest and then back to 15mg a day when i have only 15 tabs left is a good cycle. so im going to try that and record my gains... then i'll try ure 14/14 thing!
> 
> the person i got the tabs from uses them himself and thinks they're great. he's huge so they must work on this cycle!


IMO You would be better with the 14 x 14 before you try a normal sort of cycle as the dose remains low through out, then if you want to try you 15 to 30 to 15 pyramided cycle after

There are full before and during pictures on this thread, i didnt manage to take any pics directly after the 6 months and decided not to whilst i was ill......I am due to start proper again on monday and will try to get some pics up for my next 3 month cycle

I would take all 3 tabs at one time, best in the morning, but i started to take mine later, about lunch time , only because i had some stomach complaint and did not want to aggrevate it


----------



## xcryption

cheers bud. i'll start them monday. think i will do your 14x14 cycle then for the first time... then the pyramid one next time and see which is more beneficial for my own body and shall post up some results!


----------



## fits

Glad to see that if people are going to use AAS they are trying this kind of cycle first! keep us posted lads. Glad you come forward


----------



## xcryption

im gona stick some before pics up now and some after ones when the tabs finish (first 100)

doing the pyramid cycle first then gonna compare it to the 14x14

shud i post pics in this sticky or in a new post somewhere?


----------



## winger

xcryption said:


> im gona stick some before pics up now and some after ones when the tabs finish (first 100)
> 
> doing the pyramid cycle first then gonna compare it to the 14x14
> 
> shud i post pics in this sticky or in a new post somewhere?


I would put your pics up in the members pics area and just link them from here. Here is the members pics area, click here.


----------



## samurai691436114498

xcryption said:


> im gona stick some before pics up now and some after ones when the tabs finish (first 100)
> 
> doing the pyramid cycle first then gonna compare it to the 14x14
> 
> shud i post pics in this sticky or in a new post somewhere?


Ok, where ever you stick pics and measurements up, post in between the cycles too as yo will see increases on the first one that will probably include fluids...where as with 14x14 they will be less obvious...........Its cool that you are doing both cycles Keep us posted


----------



## seagull

samurai69 said:


> Ok, where ever you stick pics and measurements up, post in between the cycles too as yo will see increases on the first one that will probably include fluids...where as with 14x14 they will be less obvious...........Its cool that you are doing both cycles Keep us posted


Great diary. Im thinking of starting a D-Bol cycle. Have you been able to keep some of the muscle gains ? It says on some websites that the gains are only temporary while your on it.


----------



## samurai691436114498

seagull said:


> Great diary. Im thinking of starting a D-Bol cycle. Have you been able to keep some of the muscle gains ? It says on some websites that the gains are only temporary while your on it.


I reckon i would have been able to* keep 85% or more* if i hadnt been ill and unable to train or eat properly for over a month. as it is *i am still up by 10lbs* on my starting weight


----------



## winger

samurai69 said:


> *i am still up by 10lbs* on my starting weight


Not having a go (my brother), but are you saying 10 lbs of lean muscle mass?


----------



## samurai691436114498

winger said:


> Not having a go (my brother), but are you saying 10 lbs of lean muscle mass?


no extra bf, infact down slightly as abs are better defined no water either


----------



## seagull

samurai69 said:


> no extra bf, infact down slightly as abs are better defined no water either


Ive read quite a few things about D-Bol, but get a bit confused with info overload, does it help give you extra power for the gym thus helping to lift higher weights or does it help you increase muscle mass by merely taking it and doing the same type of weights ?

I hope thats clear. Cheers.

Ps. did you get any roid rage, i could do without that !


----------



## samurai691436114498

seagull said:


> does it help give you extra power for the gym thus helping to lift higher weights *YES* or does it help you increase muscle mass by merely taking it and doing the same type of weights *YES*?
> 
> I hope thats clear. Cheers.
> 
> Ps. did you get any roid rage, i could do without that ! *NO*


Thats the basic answer, dont over complicate things, get diet sorted, get training sorted and then if necessary try AAs


----------



## winger

samurai69 said:


> Thats the basic answer, dont over complicate things, get diet sorted, get training sorted and then if necessary try AAs


Dont forget to throw in many platous and then AAS.


----------



## Lux

Hey Samurai, did you run any liver protectant alongside this 14x14? I think you mentioned it at the beginning but not sure if you actually used any throughout? I know i should have asked sooner but i was keen to get going. I'm still taking 10mg in the morning and would like your opinion on the milk thistle etc?

I set my alarm for 6am then whack 2x5mg tabs under my tongue and go back to sleep for another 45 minutes while they dissolve. I think things are going ok at the moment, week 2 should give me a better indication of things, some good workouts this week coming up so looking forward to it. I'm following ironmans bulking routine from ironmagazine forums (sorry to mention other boards, feel free do edit this post) so this week i've got squats and back work on low volume, monday and friday.

Just before i started this cycle i had a couple of weeks where i was starting to cut before i thought sod it and get back to adding more beef. I had a whole weeks rest before starting so my calorie increase from a weeks rest to back to bulking, was 1000 cals. I have got back to the weight i was at before the idea of cutting so maybe muscle memory, or the volume of food back in my body has got me up 4lbs in a week?

Muscles feel harder and think i'm getting a better pump? Not too sure as only doing 3 proper work sets after warm up. Towards the end of the week i was getting a little stronger but nothing massive. Like i say, this next week is where i'll see any progress as i look to be breaking my previous best weight and strengths!!:lift:


----------



## sc0tt_ch

i haven't taken dbol or any other steroid before and im startin a 9 week cycle from the 17th of April. am startin on

2x5mg pd for 1st week

3x5mg pd - 2nd week

4x5mg pd - 3rd week

6x5mg pd - 4th week

8x5mg pd - 5th week

6x5mg pd - 6th week

4x5mg pd - 7th week

3x5mg pd - 8th week

2x5mg pd - 9th week

throughout the full cycle i wont b doin my usual nites out at wkends, il b in the full 9 weeks. on a healthly eating schedule aiming for loads of protein and carbs per day and stick to my training program 3 days a week full body workout. if anyone wishes to add any comments on anything i will be doin then please do the more info/suggestions i receive the better! thanks

p.s i am also keepin nolvadex by my side incase of side effects!

will keep uz all updated after every workout.

scott


----------



## winger

Welcome to the board Scott!

Sorry for the hijack, it's his first post.


----------



## samurai691436114498

Lux said:


> Hey Samurai, did you run any liver protectant alongside this 14x14? I think you mentioned it at the beginning but not sure if you actually used any throughout? I know i should have asked sooner but i was keen to get going. I'm still taking 10mg in the morning and would like your opinion on the milk thistle etc?
> 
> I set my alarm for 6am then whack 2x5mg tabs under my tongue and go back to sleep for another 45 minutes while they dissolve. I think things are going ok at the moment, week 2 should give me a better indication of things, some good workouts this week coming up so looking forward to it. I'm following ironmans bulking routine from ironmagazine forums (sorry to mention other boards, feel free do edit this post) so this week i've got squats and back work on low volume, monday and friday.
> 
> Just before i started this cycle i had a couple of weeks where i was starting to cut before i thought sod it and get back to adding more beef. I had a whole weeks rest before starting so my calorie increase from a weeks rest to back to bulking, was 1000 cals. I have got back to the weight i was at before the idea of cutting so maybe muscle memory, or the volume of food back in my body has got me up 4lbs in a week?
> 
> Muscles feel harder and think i'm getting a better pump? Not too sure as only doing 3 proper work sets after warm up. Towards the end of the week i was getting a little stronger but nothing massive. Like i say, this next week is where i'll see any progress as i look to be breaking my previous best weight and strengths!!:lift:


To answer the Q about the milk thistle ........... YES i did take it for the first 3 cycles and TBH it was only lazines (and lack of maney) on my part that i stopped taking it after that....If you have it then it may help, but i think that on such a low dose its not going to do my liver any more harm than a couple of glasses of wine or beer....and i dont take liver protectors when i drink :beer: .

Nice to see you are doing the early start and under the tounge bit (dont choke on them when you sleep) :rolleye11

The first cycle i did i noticed a quick increase in weight and lifts, it was slightly less on subsequant cycles but definately there (especially weight increase). I actually made gains without altering my diet and then made better gains with increased cals/prot 

good luck with it and keep us posted


----------



## samurai691436114498

samurai69 said:


> Just checked my weight as of 20th march and i am hovering around 93 kg
> 
> I have decided that i am going to start cycle early by 1 week, but on 5mg for the first week and 10mg for the second week. If i have gained any weight at the end of the second week i will take my 14 days off, if there has been no significant gain in either weight or strength, then i will continue for a further 7 days at 10mg, this is just to see what if anything 5mg per day will do......I am interested to see lowest dose gains
> 
> Training will continue 3 days at 5x5
> 
> diet for first cycle will also be un changed
> 
> there is a fitness exhibition on 1st april and i will purchase a new load of my favorite protein (2 for 1 offer) and some creatine for the next 3 month cycle.
> 
> only cycling creatine in the off weeks
> 
> .


Ok, here is an update at the end of this 2 week cycle

training has been good and remained at my 3 day per week full body workout as usual weights on this programm have gone up each gym visit

Heres a cut and paste of how/why from OSCs forum



> At the moment its *5x5 compounds *run over a *2 week cycle*........at the start of week 1 the weight is something that i can finish on my own cleanly and then over the 2 weeks i make sure i *increase* the weight every visit (if necessary using a spotter or employing other forced rep methods ie. cheats, rest pause etc).........then at the end of 2 weeks i *re set the weight *(i do this by changeing the exercises - stillcompounds). This stops me getting bored, it also stops the muscles getting stale
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .


The diet for this first 2 weeks has remained un-changed ie no additional protein, same junk food as normal.

I just weighed my self and i am a comfortable 94kg, it will be interesting to see if that changes over this next 2 week off period

update to follow


----------



## sc0tt_ch

winger said:


> Welcome to the board Scott!
> 
> Sorry for the hijack, it's his first post.


lol thanks mate. il get pics uploaded jst before a start the roids then pics straight after so uz can see the results!


----------



## Lux

> I actually made gains without altering my diet and then made better gains with increased cals/prot


What sort of ratio did you find best then Samurai? 2g protein per lb of bodyweight? 3g? 4g?

I'm currently getting 2g pro per lb of bw and 2.3g carbs per lb of bw, i was planning on getting more carbs into my body as my calorie needs increase but unsure now. Would i be better off increasing the protein when needed, or a balance of carbs and pro?

Thanks for your input


----------



## zack

Sam iam also doing 14 x14.

Currently on 4th cycle.

looking to increase muscle mass & decrease bf.

Is it possible to this do you think this with this cycle?

i am finding during d/bol stage i can gain 4-5 pounds but loose all this during the off stage:confused:

At the start of this cycle i am not up weight wise at all.I have however lost a couple of inches of waist ( plenty to go still!). This week i have uppped calories further to try to max gains on d/bol stage.

Do you think i need to change anything.


----------



## samurai691436114498

zack said:


> Sam iam also doing 14 x14.
> 
> Currently on 4th cycle.
> 
> looking to increase muscle mass & decrease bf.
> 
> Is it possible to this do you think this with this cycle?
> 
> i am finding during d/bol stage i can gain 4-5 pounds but loose all this during the off stage:confused:
> 
> At the start of this cycle i am not up weight wise at all.I have however lost a couple of inches of waist ( plenty to go still!). This week i have uppped calories further to try to max gains on d/bol stage.
> 
> Do you think i need to change anything.


I am surprised that you are losing after the d-bol cycle.......How much are you taking, are you taking anything during the off cycle, how much protein (you say you are upping cals - could be that).

On this cycle i think its not impossible to cut, whilst on it, i noticed some leaning up all through my first 4 or 5 cycles.......the pics should have high lighted the drop on here.

Hows your training, I know you are doing reg x and training for rugby



> Full body workouts 2-3 per week.
> 
> Session 1 is compound exercises.
> 
> Session 2 is your flys etc.
> 
> 1 warm up set at 75% & 1 workset to total failure. ( this is what i find difficult, going through the pain barrier, squeezing every rep out!)
> 
> 5 sec lifts, Weeks 1-4 =10-12 reps, 4-8 =8-10, 8-12 =6-8
> 
> Tabats to finish


...are you going to train/play 7s through the off season........There could well be some overtraining eg

Morning conditioning

Gym Training weights+Cardio

Rugby training

Rugby game

If that is the case more rest, more food, tone down the training

TBH i have recently lowered the dose of d-bol (ask OSC) and on my first 2 week cycle back put on a kg, I dont expect to lose this (maybe a slight bit), no water retention or no signs of it at all this time (before i had back pain and shin pain from pumps).........I have one more week off and then will weigh in again before starting my next cycle (no change in diet - apart from natural changes - due to summer arriving). Then the cycle after that one i will change and tune the diet for 2 cycles .....


----------



## zack

Trainning has been ok averaging 2-3 sessions a week injury permiting.

Recently i have changed to full body workouts.

Rugby finishes this week then emphasise will be purely on weights.

I am doing 15mg of d/bol for 14 then run Clen & trib for 10, nothing for 4 & start again after 28.

Diet started as diatia level 4 which is maintenace, raised this to 4.5 for last cycle. This cycle i have added furter calories again drinking skimmed milk for 2 meals and going to level 5 on breakfasts.

TBH i have done 2 cycles in past, gained well on but lost gains off.

Thats why i chose this cycle slowly, slowly catch the monkey.


----------



## samurai691436114498

zack said:


> Thats why i chose this cycle slowly, slowly catch the monkey.


That should work



zack said:


> Recently i have changed to full body workouts.
> 
> .


Ok so that change might have affected things....now on new workout should be less, so should gain Now



zack said:


> Rugby finishes this week then emphasise will be purely on weights.
> 
> .


Sure that will help too



zack said:


> Clen & trib for 10, nothing for 4 & start again after 28.
> 
> .


Not 100% sure about the clen :boohoo: , maybe cookie can step in here



zack said:


> Diet started as diatia level 4 which is maintenace, raised this to 4.5 for last cycle. This cycle i have added furter calories again drinking skimmed milk for 2 meals and going to level 5 on breakfasts.
> 
> .


That should help

I like creatine through the off 2 weeks and water consumption is up 3 or 4 to 5 litres per day

.


----------



## Cookie

> TBH i have recently lowered the dose of d-bol (ask OSC)


Yep Got him to lower dose again and its worked so far, will be nice to see full results once diet and training are 100% all the time...



> I am doing 15mg of d/bol for 14 then run Clen & trib for 10, nothing for 4 & start again after 28.


Drop the clen...I got people to add this if they were cutting not bulking...add in 30-50mgs of zinc last thing at night 2hrs away from food



> Diet started as diatia level 4 which is maintenace, raised this to 4.5 for last cycle. This cycle i have added furter calories again drinking skimmed milk for 2 meals and going to level 5 on breakfasts.


Stick to the diet as written...so go with L4.5 and keep it that way for 4-6 weeks before making any changes...



> Thats why i chose this cycle slowly, slowly catch the monkey.


Very well said.......


----------



## zack

ONE SMART COOKIE said:


> Drop the clen...I got people to add this if they were cutting not bulking...add in 30-50mgs of zinc last thing at night 2hrs away from food


i think this has been my problem trying to bulk & cut fat at the same time. I think i will concentrate on bulking for a period & then cut.

Zinc- usually go to bed 45 mins after last meal shouldi take it then or between meal 5 & 6? Ditto trib?

sorry about the hijack Sam!


----------



## samurai691436114498

zack said:


> sorry about the hijack Sam!


No problem, its more about this type of cycle now, than just my cycle journal


----------



## Cookie

Your last meal is way too close to bedtime, your shutting of the bodies ability to secrete natural GH in your sleep...last meal should be atleast 2-3hrs before bed and thats when you take your trib and zinc with good old plain water.......


----------



## zack

Mwal plan comes from diatia 6 meals every 3hrs last 1 at 9pm bed 10pm.

Back to the drawing board i think:boohoo:


----------



## Cookie

gGo with the combined variation of diatia which is 4 meals instead of 6


----------



## zack

been thinking about that, trouuble is comining 2 meals at 4.5 is alot of grub in 1 sitting! mg:


----------



## Lux

Just about to enter my last week of the 14 days off, just got a little question for ya. Earlier in this thread it says to stop the creatine 4 days before you restart the next 14 on? I'm currently taking trib, zinc and cee. Should i stop just the creatine, or all of this, 4 days before the next 14 on?


----------



## samurai691436114498

i would stop all, let natuar get a hold again


----------



## samurai691436114498

Ok, well i am back on for another 2 weeks

weighed in yesterday and am between 94 and 95 kg so have maintained the gain from last time

training will reman the same 5x5 full body 3 times per week

strength is going up on all lifts over every 2 week unit of training see here for training journal http://onesmartcookie.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=41


----------



## zack

How much Creatine where you using Sam?


----------



## samurai691436114498

5 grams per day, because the measure is for that, personally i think 3 would be ok


----------



## samurai691436114498

Going to put this link to another thread in as its talking about 14 x 14

http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/steroid-testosterone-information/13942-dbol-no-pct.html


----------



## samurai691436114498

end of my 2 weeks on and i am now clearly at 95kg, maybe a bit over so i have mad a slight gain over this 2 week cycle

when i resume in 2 weeks time i am going to clean up the diet again and see what additional gains can be made with a clean diet added


----------



## Lux

Had to stop my 14x14 experiment. There has been all sorts of bad reviews on the tabs i had and they made me feel so crap i had to stop taking them. The tabs were the 5mg ramopharmin dbols, i read that they are actually methyltestosterone and not what it says on the box:rage:

The first week i was taking them i suffered nosebleeds and nasty horrible lethargy and deep depression. Not sure if its because of these or being sat in the van instead of working, but i seem to have got more spots on my back. I perservered for the first 14 days and would review during the next 14 on. I got 10 days into this and decided to stop. The lethargy and depression was horrible, so for my sake and others around me i binned 'em and started the trib and zinc. So in 5 and a bit weeks i gained 11-12lbs, not all muscle so we'll see how i look in about 6 weeks. Thought i was getting too big a belly and started to slighty reduce the bulking macros this past week as i do Girondas 8x8. But just saw that a side of the methyltestosterone is bloating, so maybe thats why i thought my gut was bigger? Will have to see over the next few weeks.

Once summer has gone, i'll source myself some proper dbols and go for the 14x14 again.


----------



## Beginner

Dianabol

I have started taking dianabol for the first time. It is the first time I am taking steroids.

I am taking 20mg a day and I started 4 days ago. I have started noticing a burning sensation around my nipples and I am concerned that gyno symptons might star.

Do you know what are the first symptons of gyno and it is possible that symptons start after just 4 days?

Thanks a lot for your valuable opinion.


----------



## samurai691436114498

an update for here, incase it gets lost from another post

after they layoff period that i had after christmas i posted that i was going to try the dose at 10mg.

I mentioned to OSC that what i planned to do was try a dose with no changes to diet or training at all and then on the following 14 day cycle try it with a proper diet and then on the 3rd 14 day cycle possibly change the training a bit too

well i actually started at 5mg per day for my 14 days on...........I gained about 2lbs.......no (noticeable) sides at all. This weight i kept. I have to say my diet isnt that bad at its very worst.

Because i increased my weight on only 5mg, i decided to stay on 5mg for the next 14 days...........over this time i didnt really gain any weight (i didnt lose any either) but the muscle looked better, more shape, better look and a slight drop in BF (i didnt check - but abs were more defined)......the only change to diet was an increase in protein (more chicken and tuna - not supplement) and a decrease in sugars.

and for testing purposes (to see what would happen i stayed on for a third 14 day cycle, which i have just finished - muscle looks better and weight is up by about 1lb (just over on second day of weighing)........I cant comment further on this 14 day cycle as its just finished.

But i do think you could definately start at a much lower amount and increase when the gains have stopped .

It also shows that after a break (mine was 3 months) it is possibkle to resuma at the lower dose and still gain

I also havent looked for massive gains, ultra quickly - but over the near year i have been cycling like this i have gained consistently up from 88.5kg to above 95kg...........i also think this would have been higher if i hadnt had a near 2 month ilness with a month of that out of the gym completely.


----------



## Littleluke

> Dianabol
> 
> I have started taking dianabol for the first time. It is the first time I am taking steroids.
> 
> I am taking 20mg a day and I started 4 days ago. I have started noticing a burning sensation around my nipples and I am concerned that gyno symptons might star.
> 
> Do you know what are the first symptons of gyno and it is possible that symptons start after just 4 days?
> 
> Thanks a lot for your valuable opinion.


Do you have some Nolva or clomid?


----------



## fits

great info S69!!!!

good to see how other people are getting on too. My life sees to change e.g going out, diet, training (at the moment) so i think it will be hard for me to give accurate results but i will try.

Are you staying on 5mg for your next cycle? have weights gone up or are u not trying to increase the weights u lift right now? :beer:


----------



## samurai691436114498

fits said:


> great info S69!!!!


*Cheers mate*



fits said:


> good to see how other people are getting on too.


*Yep, its interesting to see*



fits said:


> . My life sees to change e.g going out, diet, training (at the moment) so i think it will be hard for me to give accurate results but i will try.


*It shouldnt be too bad*



fits said:


> Are you staying on 5mg for your next cycle?


*I am probably going to do 10mg - its coming up to my summer hols and it would be nice to add a bit more weight slightly quicker - having said that i am up by another 1lb or so this cycle so may stay at 5mg*



fits said:


> have weights gone up or are u not trying to increase the weights u lift right now?


*On the workout i am doin at the moment i increase weight every workout for 2 weeks the basically de-load as i change exercises, but when i have gone back to a particular exercise the weight has gone up - So basically YES weights are going up* :smoke:


----------



## fits

good to hear mate! ill be ordering mine friday hopefully  still worried that it will speed up the balding process though so i might not take them LOL


----------



## LondonGeezer

Beginner said:


> Dianabol
> 
> I have started taking dianabol for the first time. It is the first time I am taking steroids.
> 
> I am taking 20mg a day and I started 4 days ago. I have started noticing a burning sensation around my nipples and I am concerned that gyno symptons might star.
> 
> Do you know what are the first symptons of gyno and it is possible that symptons start after just 4 days?
> 
> Thanks a lot for your valuable opinion.


You should have posted this in a new thread and you would have got some answers.. what have you got for PCT? any nolva or clomid? if you haven't got anything already i suggest go out and get yourself some nolvadex.

60mg nolva day 1

30mg untill you nipples feel normal again

20mg for 2-3days more to be safe.

read some threads about gyno and dbol get some information about it but follow that and you should be ok, start yourself a new thread see what others have to say.


----------



## samurai691436114498

Its been exactly 1 year since i started this cycling, i have just weighed my self and i am 96kg thats a gain over the year of 7.5 kg or 16.5 lbs (over a stone).........

It would have been more i am sure as the weight was close to this at christmas, but through ilness i dropped a fair bit

But i am happy with the results........I think it has proved the doubters wrong

You can gain consistantly on a low dose cycle of d-bol

I am at the moment cycling 5mg per day for my 14 on 14 of cycles, the gains are slightly slower, but there is definately an improvement of the quality of the muscle gaines (ie NO or LITTLE water gained). again no NOTICEABLE sides (i am NOT saying NONE.....but the sides if any are *NOT* NOTICEABLE).

I am going to continue on this cycle again for a couple more......finishing around the middle of July

I still have a load of d-bol left, so after a couple of months break i will probably resume this cycle until i run out

then will start a new journal on my next PLANNED CYCLE

if anyone has questions about this i am only too pleased to answer them here

but i will not be writing it as a journal after this except for a final update when i have completd the tabs i still have

thanks for the interest so far

incidentaly i am 43 in 10 days time


----------



## Cookie

Mate that is awesome to see what you`ve done this past year and I hope others will gain something too from what you`ve done and shown....

Thanks ever so much for being a willing guinee pig in this experiment and having faith in what I said would work all along:lift: and will continue to say works....



> I think it has proved the doubters wrong


Its proved em wrong but wether they`ll actually listen and adjust their own cycles, thats an all together different scenario, bit like :deadhorse


----------



## fits

congratulations my friend, and thank you for keeping a detailed journal! the information has been outstanding and i, and i think i talk on behalf of alot of people, when i say i apreciate the time and effort you put in writing this journal.

i hope others (including myself if i can convince myself that 5 to 15 mg of dbol per day wont speed up the enevitable, forthcomming slap head i'm going to get) will try this kind of cycle too. (make sense? its very early for me)

all the best pal.


----------



## tanktop

excellent read this journal, very well documented


----------



## Androjector

20mg of Dianabol daily is sufficient in instigating reasonable gains. Depending on the validity & quality of your source, 30mg should be a maximum dose.

Dianabol only has a half life once in the system, so periodic ingestion throughout the day is vital in achieving optimum results. 5mg every 2-3 hours should suffice. Naturally that would rise to 10mg every 2-3 hours if 30mg was your desired daily intake.


----------



## samurai691436114498

Androjector said:


> 20mg of Dianabol daily is sufficient in instigating reasonable gains. Depending on the validity & quality of your source, 30mg should be a maximum dose.
> 
> Dianabol only has a half life once in the system, so periodic ingestion throughout the day is vital in achieving optimum results. 5mg every 2-3 hours should suffice. Naturally that would rise to 10mg every 2-3 hours if 30mg was your desired daily intake.


On a normal 6 week cycle.......yes

but on the 14 x 14 5 or 10 mg per day(only) has proved enough to instigating reasonable gains.


----------



## Androjector

Hi, I appreciate your perspective on single tablet dosing. My comments were in relation to another contributor to this thread. Dianabol is extremely effective, even in small amounts. I've personally had outstanding gains in strength and recovery using 10mg daily. I also prefer to ingest the full dosage in one hit. Due to the half life of Dianabol, this obviously allows less impact on natural testosterone production.


----------



## supercharged999

interesting read ...i have been out of the body-building scene for around 8 years, and am gonna get back in again.

i last used d-bol (5 mg ) on a 6 week cycle of 15 mg/day week 1-2

20 mg/day week 3-4

15 mg/day week 5-6

and made fair sized gains.:lift:

2 years ago i tried some decca (200 mg) every 7 days for 4 weeks and started getting 'itchy tits'.

so now alittle worried with a new course.(want to try the 14 on/14 off).but when to take the nolvadex ?

even now my left nipple still feels sensitive and slightly lumpy under the skin.

i'm 5 ft 2 and weigh in at 70 kg.(still retained a lot of shape )


----------



## winger

supercharged999 said:


> interesting read ...i have been out of the body-building scene for around 8 years, and am gonna get back in again.
> 
> i last used d-bol (5 mg ) on a 6 week cycle of 15 mg/day week 1-2
> 
> 20 mg/day week 3-4
> 
> 15 mg/day week 5-6
> 
> and made fair sized gains.:lift:
> 
> 2 years ago i tried some decca (200 mg) every 7 days for 4 weeks and started getting 'itchy tits'.
> 
> so now alittle worried with a new course.(want to try the 14 on/14 off).but when to take the nolvadex ?
> 
> even now my left nipple still feels sensitive and slightly lumpy under the skin.
> 
> i'm 5 ft 2 and weigh in at 70 kg.(still retained a lot of shape )


Those are tame doses and that's good. If the dbol didn't give you itchy nipples then maybe I would stick with that.

200mg of deca seems light. If that small dose gave you itchy tits then maybe you should avoid deca.

I really doubt that 14 days on dbol you would need nolva.

If you do decide to try it please keep us posted.


----------



## samurai691436114498

The only times i used nolva was after the very first 14 day cycle (maybe paranoid) took 20mg per day for 4 days and then for 4 days after the last cycle (before 3 month break)

over the last year i have made good consistant gains on the 14x14

:lift:


----------



## supercharged999

thanks , i'm gonna do exaclty what you did SAMURAI69.

just take nolvadex (20mg for four days after first cycle )

any recomemdations for keeping 'liver in check' ?

just good food and 3 protein shakes /day (REFLEX )


----------



## winger

supercharged999 said:


> any recomemdations for keeping 'liver in check' ?


Milk thistle and NAC.


----------



## samurai691436114498

supercharged999 said:


> thanks , i'm gonna do exaclty what you did SAMURAI69.
> 
> just take nolvadex (20mg for four days after first cycle ):rolleye11 if i can find some.
> 
> maybe also looking for ANAVAR.(this will be for the next cycle after 10 weeks off this course ).
> 
> gonna do 20 mg / day...(14/14 x 3) of d-bol.
> 
> any recomemdations for keeping 'liver in check' ?
> 
> just good food and 3 protein shakes /day (REFLEX )


Why dont you start with 10mg for the first one or two cycles and then add 5mg for a couple more then if you need to go to 20 do that later , i am still gaining and now only using 10mg per day on my 14 day cycles...........and i find keeping the gains is easier too

as for liver protectants

liv 52 or milk thistle are both good

either way good luck with it


----------



## fits

did any one else try this? if so how did you get on?


----------



## samurai691436114498

fits said:


> did any one else try this? if so how did you get on?


there were a few people that did try it over different time scales and i beleive a couple did experiance fair gains

.


----------



## Jimmy1

a guy i advised did this for a 3-4 month period

he was very happy and went 80kg up on his leg press with it!!!


----------



## fits

Jimmy said:


> a guy i advised did this for a 3-4 month period
> 
> he was very happy and went 80kg up on his leg press with it!!!


 no bad sides? how was he for bloat? prostate etc?


----------



## Jimmy1

he was fine


----------



## fits

cool ,what pct did he use?

every had experiance with Tbol jimmy?


----------



## toon

Hi Samurai,

This is a fantastic thread mate. Very well done. I like your thinking and I like the sane doses over time. You have done well mate.

I have read the whole thing this morning and maybe I missed this but Im interested in pct/ are you carrying any out in the 14 days off? Do you find you are not shut down fully and bouce back quickly enough due to not been fully shut down. Or are you carrying out no pct then hitting the next lot.

Cheers ...........


----------



## fits

I think sam only used something one his first few days as he had soem paranoia about gyno but nothing came of it and he didnt use it again at all.


----------



## Jimmy1

fits said:


> cool ,what pct did he use?
> 
> every had experiance with Tbol jimmy?


sorry...thats about the only steroid i have never used


----------



## fits

Jimmy said:


> sorry...thats about the only steroid i have never used


 lol ok mate now worries


----------



## velovo

Looking back at this thread, I was interested to hear about the tintinitis problem and Hackski post regarding a lack of B12. I would like to remind some of you guys about the effect of Dina on the bodys levels of B12 as this may have been a likely cause looking at the post from Hackski. Dina has an effect on the natural B12 levels. I do not know if any of you guys remember the old Trinergic form from P&B laboratories in Bombay (they also did Pronabol 5 which was one of the only Dina tabs at the time)? These were red capsules which contained B12 to combat the effects that the dina had on the bodies natural levels. Anyone thinking of taking Dina may wish to think about some kind of B12 supplementation as well.


----------



## toon

toon said:


> Hi Samurai,
> 
> This is a fantastic thread mate. Very well done. I like your thinking and I like the sane doses over time. You have done well mate.
> 
> I have read the whole thing this morning and maybe I missed this but Im interested in pct/ are you carrying any out in the 14 days off? Do you find you are not shut down fully and bouce back quickly enough due to not been fully shut down. Or are you carrying out no pct then hitting the next lot.
> 
> Cheers ...........


bump for samurai...........


----------



## Cookie

The whole idea behind the 14x14 is to try and avoid shutdown, some people I`ve had use it have used trib and zinc on the 14 day off period , some for 14 days others for just 10 days.....


----------



## toon

and do you think that he will not be shut down like? 14 days or not its still enough to shut you down imo


----------



## Cookie

toon said:


> and do you think that he will not be shut down like? 14 days or not its still enough to shut you down imo


Shutdown will always happen to some degree in everybody...It has to as thats the bodies way of *balancing* everything out..

But we kept Sam69`s dose as low as possible to keep this to a minimum..He has even gone a slow as 5-10mg aday and still seen results.

Add to that we had him take his tablets early morning to coinside with natural high test levels so that body wouldn`t notice as much that their was an outside addition to natural production..


----------



## winger

ONE SMART COOKIE said:


> Shutdown will always happen to some degree in everybody...It has to as thats the bodies way of *balancing* everything out..
> 
> But we kept Sam69`s dose as low as possible to keep this to a minimum..He has even gone a slow as 5-10mg aday and still seen results.
> 
> Add to that we had him take his tablets early morning to coinside with natural high test levels so that body wouldn`t notice as much that their was an outside addition to natural production..


Guys take gear in the morning when levels are highest. I think it is called bridging. Some swear by it.


----------



## toon

bridging is diff kettle of fish. Im saying, do you find you recover sufficient in 14 days to hit another cycle? Imo your never truelly recovering and hitting cycles straight away. I know dbol has short half life but do you think yr recovered enough after being shut down?


----------



## samurai691436114498

toon said:


> bridging is diff kettle of fish. Im saying, do you find you recover sufficient in 14 days to hit another cycle? Imo your never truelly recovering and hitting cycles straight away. I know dbol has short half life but do you think yr recovered enough after being shut down?


YEP


----------



## toon

samurai69 said:


> YEP


What you basing that on then? What signs?

Also still interested in what pct you run if any between. My apologies if I missed it in the thread.


----------



## samurai691436114498

fits said:


> I think sam only used something one his first few days as he had soem paranoia about gyno but nothing came of it and he didnt use it again at all.


yep.........

first 2 week cycle felt a little bit like nip was itchy, probably paranoia, took nolvadex through the first 10 days of the 14 day off cycle

adter that took nothing between ccyles

i have done at least 15 of these2 on 2 off cycles with a few larger breaks of 2+ months as outlined through the thread

.


----------



## toon

I still think your underestimating the shutdown of your body. I bet your not fully recovered by the time 14 days has expired. However, its a great thread.


----------



## fits

It seems S69 had no bad sides and made good gains so shut down or not, it doesn't really matter.

What do people think about a low dose Tbol 14x14 then? shall we have a poll? i was goign to start one but most people on here wouldn't even open the thread i dont think lol


----------



## winger

I wonder how many people have actually tried the 14 on 14 off?


----------



## Bulldozer

I know a few dudes that have done similar things with good results.

Think they did 20mg a day with weekends off, for 8 weeks. Slighty different approach, but still shows you can grow with minimal gear


----------



## samurai691436114498

winger said:


> I wonder how many people have actually tried the 14 on 14 off?


i know of 5 or 6 that posted on here and had at the time of their writing experianced good results

.


----------



## winger

samurai69 said:


> i know of 5 or 6 that posted on here and had at the time of their writing experianced good results
> 
> .


Cool.

Are you still doing it? Any sides at all?


----------



## Jimmy1

my old training ptner took 30mg dbol ed week on/week off for 6 weeks

he went up 5 kg (of which 3kg he kept) and his leg press went up 80kg...dbell press went from 30kg dbells to 42kg


----------



## fits

Interesting stuff. Did the other guys you people know have to use PCT?

didnt you go as low as 5mg sam?

Do you think that once you have started using the mass doses that you will then need to use more if you ever do more cycles? Is it only newbies that can grow on small amounts of test?


----------



## winger

I have heard guys say that they made the most gains on their first cycle.

Heard that line more than once.


----------



## Jimmy1

fits said:


> Do you think that once you have started using the mass doses that you will then need to use more if you ever do more cycles? Is it only newbies that can grow on small amounts of test?


if you clean out long enough, you can grow on very low doses

dont forget, one can actually grow without steroids!!!!!

imagine that? 

just pulling your chain...but if we can grow w/out gear...we can deffo grow on low doses


----------



## ymir

6 wk of 25mgED on dbol i put on 9kg, i kept 7, no strenght loss after PCT either but well im not over my genetic max.


----------



## fits

lol yeah fair play. one thing i mean is, could you see a 'noticeable' difference from low dose to training natural? as you say you can grow naturally.


----------



## samurai691436114498

fits said:


> lol yeah fair play. one thing i mean is, could you see a 'noticeable' difference from low dose to training natural? as you say you can grow naturally.


yeah, i think, if your clean long enough


----------



## paulo

do you need any pct if doing this? or are you running blockers at same time


----------



## Bulldozer

samurai69 said:


> yeah, i think, if your clean long enough


Was what your cycle history (if any) before you started the 14 x 14 samurai ?

(sorry to ask but its a long thread to search  )

Cheers bud


----------



## fits

Bulldozer said:


> Was what your cycle history (if any) before you started the 14 x 14 samurai ?
> 
> (sorry to ask but its a long thread to search  )
> 
> Cheers bud


 Also, i know some people get a bit hot while on gear, did you notice this at all on your small dose?


----------



## Cookie

paulo said:


> do you need any pct if doing this? or are you running blockers at same time


The whole thing was set up so that you didn`t need to use pct, blockers etc...

We did have some people use trib for 10 days during the 14 off period but not everyone..

Those using 5mgs per day didn`t need anything nor did sam69 on 10mgs per day..


----------



## arian40

sorry i havnt read all the replies but samurai go for it, im on d-bol cycle myself and taking 30mg one day next day 40mg going for 6 weeks iv got 2 weeks togo, i loved the cycle make sure u drink ALOT of water whilst on cycle to see VERY good results as its water-toxic, and started enanthate cycle today,

by the way, im taking my tabs 1/2every 2/3 hours ( i personaly think its much better and long lasting through the day.)

have fun.


----------



## winger

arian40 said:


> sorry i havnt read all the replies but samurai go for it, im on d-bol cycle myself and taking 30mg one day next day 40mg going for 6 weeks iv got 2 weeks togo, i loved the cycle make sure u drink ALOT of water whilst on cycle to see VERY good results as its water-toxic, and started enanthate cycle today,
> 
> by the way, im taking my tabs 1/2every 2/3 hours ( i personaly think its much better and long lasting through the day.)
> 
> have fun.


So you are going to run a 8 week cycle of D-bol and run tes enenthate at week 6 for how long?


----------



## arian40

winger said:


> So you are going to run a 8 week cycle of D-bol and run tes enenthate at week 6 for how long?


for 6 week.,, any good? any comments will be appericiated


----------



## winger

arian40 said:


> for 6 week.,, any good? any comments will be appericiated


I don't do gear mate. This thread was actually for the really short cycles.

14 days on, 14 days off, 14 days on and 24 off I think. It actually stemmed from a guy name ChefX, but it really was before him.

ChefX, was one of the guys that had major blood work regularly, but he had an aggressive cancer that he used gear to fix.

Can I ask, how old you are and how many cycles have you done in that past?

Also, how much do you weigh and at what bf%?


----------



## arian40

well 22, first proper cycle was the dbol and gone on to the second cycle,,, ( but i THINK my second gear is not legit/fake as never seen it iv posted the pictures on the testostrone enanthate (real?) thread,,.. which im not realy happy about ..

and im 70kilos not much.


----------



## fits

I think cookie came up with this cycle.......maybe from materials he has read over the years............

I dont want to be a spoil sport but can we stick to the topic here lads.

S69. Any chance of a summery on here from your 14 x 14? and If/when you start again will you be keeping a journal again?


----------



## Cookie

fits said:


> I think cookie came up with this cycle.......maybe from materials he has read over the years............
> 
> *Yep true, and something I was working on 10 years ago when I was going to do gear again... Sam69 just volunteered to be the guinea pig...lol*
> 
> I dont want to be a spoil sport but can we stick to the topic here lads.
> 
> S69. Any chance of a summery on here from your 14 x 14? and If/when you start again will you be keeping a journal again?
> 
> *I`m not 100% sure if he is going that route again fits, I think he wants to push the natural barriers a bit more..*


----------



## fits

Sam, can you enlighten us?


----------



## samurai691436114498

Yes i am going to do 3 or 4 more 14 x 14s it will be the last of the d-bol i have and will act as a boost over the last 3 months of this year as TBH i have been a little lasy as far as diet and training have gone

september is back to training- natural then for oct/nov and dec i will run 3 14x14 cycles of 10mg

there after i will go back to all natural training.............UNLESS something else comes along that i would like to try TBH i am interested in trying an extremely low dose of T BOL on a similar cycle, but that will not be until next year, maybe another June thread (T BOL DAY - 6th of june  )



will i run a journal - with the T Bol ------YES, with the next 3 14x14s just post an update on here, maybe routine, pics and weight etc


----------



## fits

Good stuff Sam. Keep us informed. the original was a great thread

:beer1:


----------



## samurai691436114498

fits said:


> Good stuff Sam. Keep us informed. the original was a great thread
> 
> :beer1:


yes mate will do

see you in a coouple of weeks:lift::beer1:


----------



## Rono26

*Sam69 & OSC* -Ive been researching DBol for the past month very intensively and this thread got me hooked! Thanks to you guys ive been reading for over 7 hours (only stopping for food and protein shakes). Its been extreemly informative and im pretty sure im gonna give it a go as my 1st cycle.

Thats 14 on 10mg DBol (with milk thistle), 10 taking 5g creatine, zinc and trib, with 4 days completely free. (With some Nova to hand tho hopefully wont be neccessary). Want to run it up til Holiday for new years to Mexico... then have longer break before running again.

Am i missing anything in there?

Im happy with my diet and training, have personal trainer who i sort that out with and tweak. Already got me on the Desiccated Liver!! One querry i have tho is, *OSC* has mentioned several times about not eating any later than 3 hours before going to sleep. Does this include a slow release protein shake? I currently take one before going to sleep.

*SAM69* - I am doing the Great North Run at the end of September, in your opinion (due to your experiance of shin problems) do you think i would be better holding off until after that?

Tho there was that chap who was going to use the same dosage to keep his size whilst doing extra cardio.... Thoughts anyone?

Cheers Fella's.

Also. Apex / British Dragon? Know Sam69 did Apex but BD is easier for me to get hold off, only comes in 10mg tabs tho and I like the idea of being able to adjust by 5mg if I choose?!?


----------



## Cookie

Rono26 said:


> *Sam69 & OSC* -Ive been researching DBol for the past month very intensively and this thread got me hooked! Thanks to you guys ive been reading for over 7 hours (only stopping for food and protein shakes). Its been extreemly informative and im pretty sure im gonna give it a go as my 1st cycle.
> 
> *LOL....7hrs of reading....*
> 
> Thats 14 on 10mg DBol (with milk thistle), 10 taking 5g creatine, zinc and trib, with 4 days completely free. (With some Nova to hand tho hopefully wont be neccessary). Want to run it up til Holiday for new years to Mexico... then have longer break before running again.
> 
> Am i missing anything in there?
> 
> *try taking 21 days off, so 10 days with the trib etc then 11 days completely clean..So 14x21*
> 
> Im happy with my diet and training, have personal trainer who i sort that out with and tweak. Already got me on the Desiccated Liver!! One querry i have tho is, *OSC* has mentioned several times about not eating any later than 3 hours before going to sleep. Does this include a slow release protein shake? I currently take one before going to sleep.
> 
> *Its an individual thing, but if you feel ok with food in your stomach then stick with that...*
> 
> *SAM69* - I am doing the Great North Run at the end of September, in your opinion (due to your experiance of shin problems) do you think i would be better holding off until after that?
> 
> Tho there was that chap who was going to use the same dosage to keep his size whilst doing extra cardio.... Thoughts anyone?
> 
> Cheers Fella's.
> 
> Also. Apex / British Dragon? Know Sam69 did Apex but BD is easier for me to get hold off, only comes in 10mg tabs tho and I like the idea of being able to adjust by 5mg if I choose?!?


----------



## samurai691436114498

i think its a personal thing with the shin splints

if you run regularly anyway at those distances there should be no problems

my problem was running shorter runs with clients and having to adjust pace, so i was actually making that problem worse.........

and my anterior tib muscle sheath is tight anyway so as the pump happens i get more pain than others........even know when walking fast


----------



## Rono26

Cheers Fella's.

Sam69 - Just wanted to ask roughly how many Cals you were on to achieve your gains at the start. My stats are similar to yours (arm size and strength down slighly due to doing a marathon earlier this year).

Im currently on 2750-3000cals per day, but am concerned that this is not enough. My theroy has been, much like the dosage of DBol, I can up it if im not getting results. Knowing what you were on should give me a good idea as a start tho.

Protein should be fine, 220g (ish) per day... May need to up carbs 300ish... Fat 70ish...

Thanks.


----------



## samurai691436114498

Rono26 said:


> Cheers Fella's.
> 
> Sam69 - Just wanted to ask roughly how many Cals you were on to achieve your gains at the start. My stats are similar to yours (arm size and strength down slighly due to doing a marathon earlier this year).
> 
> Im currently on 2750-3000cals per day, but am concerned that this is not enough. My theroy has been, much like the dosage of DBol, I can up it if im not getting results. Knowing what you were on should give me a good idea as a start tho.
> 
> Protein should be fine, 220g (ish) per day... May need to up carbs 300ish... Fat 70ish...
> 
> Thanks.


TBH i didnt watch my calorie intake too much, all i did from my normal 2500 to 3000 cal was add in a couple of extra protein shakes then later in the cycles i added more fats to up the cals........TBH i only just managed the 3000 cals..........my diet isnt overly high in added carbs, most of the sugars i get from additional fruit and veg.........and i do like basmati rice (probably only real carb)

cookie can probably remember more of the facts and figures, but my diet was pretty clean before hand with just some added proteins and fats whilst on and that alsoe fluctuated, i still made gains on this cycle even during the times when my diet went pretty sh1tty


----------



## samurai691436114498

also noted when you are training for your run i would increase carbs more too

but cookie will definately help point you in the right direction as far as diet goes


----------



## Cookie

Busy now but will answer laters...

But while I`m at it

Why has this thread been removed from being a sticky?

Given especially its high viewings and post counts, not to mention the information it contains.................

And I would like an answer please...........


----------



## Great White

Because there was a point it hadnt been posted on for over 4 months.

I just unstuck it when I was cleaning up all the forums.


----------



## Cookie

UK Muscle said:


> Because there was a point it hadnt been posted on for over 4 months.
> 
> I just unstuck it when I was cleaning up all the forums.


Strange decision..imo.. given as its the highest viewed thread with the second highest posted replies....

Never realised there was a time limit on valuable sensible information.......


----------



## Bulldozer

I once read this whole thread, it took me all day! I think its possible the most interesting thread on this entire board.

Cookie, I have no intention of using gear, but im curious as to your opinion of using a very small dose of fast acting injectable test , such as prop instead of dbol.

5 very small dose injections spaced out E3D. So the times the prop is out of your system it would be 15 days on, you could then have 15 days clean.

Could this kinda very small dose prop injections substitute for the dbol and still not shut you down ? (i dont have a dose in mind as i dont know enough about gear, but im talking what would be the approx equivilant of 10mg d bol)

As i say mate, im just curious. If im talking sh*t then just say, i wont take offence


----------



## Cookie

Bulldozer said:


> I once read this whole thread, it took me all day! I think its possible the most interesting thread on this entire board.
> 
> Cookie, I have no intention of using gear, but im curious as to your opinion of using a very small dose of fast acting injectable test , such as prop instead of dbol.
> 
> *5 very small dose injections spaced out E3D. So the times the prop is out of your system it would be 15 days on, you could then have 15 days clean.*
> 
> Could this kinda very small dose prop injections substitute for the dbol and still not shut you down ? (i dont have a dose in mind as i dont know enough about gear, but im talking what would be the approx equivilant of 10mg d bol)
> 
> As i say mate, im just curious. If im talking sh*t then just say, i wont take offence


*Funny you should bring that up as I was only explaining to somebody last week over MSN that that cycle above *was my original plan* when I concieved this idea back in 1996 when I was going to have a couple of years off gear (forced off actually) and use it as my way back into gaining mass & competing again when some other stuff was sorted out....*

*I never really brought the shots idea up on the boards as I knew most beginers wouldn`t be too up on the idea of banging in needles, so I`ve only mentioned it to maybe a couple of other people who asked over the years....*

*It is a good plan...IMHO...to use very very short low low dose cycles of propionate and maybe at some point somebody use it like I originally intended it to be used......*


----------



## Bulldozer

ONE SMART COOKIE said:


> *Funny you should bring that up as I was only explaining to somebody last week over MSN that that cycle above *was my original plan* when I concieved this idea back in 1996 when I was going to have a couple of years off gear (forced off actually) and use it as my way back into gaining mass & competing again when some other stuff was sorted out....*
> 
> *I never really brought the shots idea up on the boards as I knew most beginers wouldn`t be too up on the idea of banging in needles, so I`ve only mentioned it to maybe a couple of other people who asked over the years....*
> 
> *It is a good plan...IMHO...to use very very short low low dose cycles of propionate and maybe at some point somebody use it like I originally intended it to be used......*


Aww cool, thanks cookie monster 

It wasn't a daft question after all then ! Guess that way you bypass any liver toxicity.

Cheers dude


----------



## fits

I think if any one is going to try AAS or for people who have used before, this is a sensible way to go about it. i like to see more people trying it this way rather than jumping straight into larger doses. And with more people trying it we will hopefully see more positive results and outcomes. :bounce:


----------



## samurai691436114498

right, well i am coming over to uk in a few weeks then after that i will run 3 more 14x14 cycles starting with a 5mg dose per day in the first 14 day cycle then up to 10 mg for the second and third cycles

i will keep a starting and finishing log again to chart gains

training will be based around a 3 times per week full body routine with one day of 5x5's second day of bodyweight based exercises (10 to 15 rep - with weight added if necessary - also rings training here) and the third will be a plyometrics/odd lifts training day (k bells, sand bags etc - will incorperate boxing/ma training too - rep range will vary according to exercises)

Diet will be quite fixed during the week but with weekends off as we have a lot of functions to go to upto and including xmas

if the cycles run into xmas i will take a break then as i am again going to be in UK over the festive period

then after xmas i will probably try a similar cycle using t bol (for fit's es info) then later possibly a Var cycle along the same lines

:beer1:

:lift:


----------



## fits

Good stuff sam. I'm back on next week, Im justtesting it at the moment ill make a log when i get back from hols. I'd like to know how you get on with Var and Tbol as you have had alot of 14x14 experiance, and you know your body well so will notice the subtle changes/differences.


----------



## samurai691436114498

fits said:


> Good stuff sam. I'm back on next week, Im justtesting it at the moment ill make a log when i get back from hols. I'd like to know how you get on with Var and Tbol as you have had alot of 14x14 experiance, and you know your body well so will notice the subtle changes/differences.


are you around when i come over?? for a meet up??


----------



## Cookie

TBH S69 I would much prefer to see you push the boat out a little and do 14x21.


----------



## samurai691436114498

ONE SMART COOKIE said:


> TBH S69 I would much prefer to see you push the boat out a little and do 14x21.


That may be an option, i was toying with a couple of varying levels maybe a 16 x 21, as i felt the benefits at about day 13 or 14 and would be nice to get the added advantages in training, and then a fuller recovery with the 21 days

, but atleast with 14x14 i know what to expect...............maybe 14 or 16 x 21....lets see

cookie what would you say the true advantages of 14x21 would be


----------



## fits

samurai69 said:


> are you around when i come over?? for a meet up??


 Maybe, if your here end of sep....of on a holiday early oct, not sure when exactly, not booked yet.


----------



## winger

You don't need to sticky the thread anymore, we can bump it up daily............lol.

It was nice that Paul did post though. Paul, we love you. 

I am amazed he posted so fast. Paul, you are my hero!


----------



## samurai691436114498

fits said:


> Maybe, if your here end of sep....of on a holiday early oct, not sure when exactly, not booked yet.


well i am over 24 sept to 9 oct ............. j is over 4 oct to 9 oct, so maybe w end before J comes over


----------



## fits

samurai69 said:


> well i am over 24 sept to 9 oct ............. j is over 4 oct to 9 oct, so maybe w end before J comes over


 Sure mate, although i have branded this month "Healthy September" so might not be able to have a beer with you LOL


----------



## samurai691436114498

fits said:


> Sure mate, although i have branded this month "Healthy September" so might not be able to have a beer with you LOL


I will drink the beer, you can have a soda water

back on topic

So i will pick up my T bol in the uk so can start that after the three 14x14 d bol cycles

and then i think with the new T bol cycle i will try something like 14x21 or maybe 16x21

cookie, i asked earlier, but why do you suggest going down the 14x21 route ?? .........i like the simplicity of 14x14


----------



## Cookie

samurai69 said:


> cookie, i asked earlier, but why do you suggest going down the 14x21 route ?? .........i like the simplicity of 14x14


I think the added 7 days off will desensitize(sp) the body to the gear even more so that when you go back on an even bigger bang for your buck. Was starting to think that the routineness of the 14x14 may not have been 100% right for everybody and the body *could* get used to what was happening especially if somebody was using trib etc during the off periods..


----------



## samurai691436114498

ONE SMART COOKIE said:


> I think the added 7 days off will desensitize(sp) the body to the gear even more so that when you go back on an even bigger bang for your buck. Was starting to think that the routineness of the 14x14 may not have been 100% right for everybody and the body *could* get used to what was happening especially if somebody was using trib etc during the off periods..


Oh, ok i see what you mean

i guess


----------



## Cookie

samurai69 said:


> Oh, ok i see what you mean
> 
> i guess


We`ll chat more about it when your over:beer1:


----------



## Cookie

winger said:


> You don't need to sticky the thread anymore, we can bump it up daily............lol.


Bad Winger we can`t do that, tyhere are *RULES* saying we can`t or its the ban bin for you:love:


----------



## winger

Bump


----------



## Bulldozer

winger said:


> Bump


LOL, i knew you was gonna do that mate haha


----------



## winger

Bulldozer said:


> LOL, i knew you was gonna do that mate haha


Yea, I couldn't resist.


----------



## samurai691436114498

just posting this link http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/steroid-testosterone-information/23605-1st-cycle-dbol-14-14-a.html to another 14/14 thread as i think the two are relevant and it will point to others that have done this cycle and (at the moment) seem to be gaining from it too


----------



## dandare2007

if you put tablets under your tongue they get into blood stream quicker threw the big veins under ur tongue, usually subutec, heroin sustitute is taken like that, or snorted for a buzz.


----------



## winger

Welcome to the board dandare2007.


----------



## samurai691436114498

dandare2007 said:


> if you put tablets under your tongue they get into blood stream quicker threw the big veins under ur tongue, usually subutec, heroin sustitute is taken like that, or snorted for a buzz.


we discussed this earlier in the thread, but i didnt really notice a difference when i tried this way


----------



## Cookie

muscomax said:


> Heyy Come Visit http://www.muscomax.co.nr/ For The Latest Best Working A Revolutionary Muscle Building Supplement for Optimum Performance
> 
> $$$ Be a MuscoMax Partner $$$


lol...................................

Go spam somewhere else.......


----------



## winger

Hey give the guy some credit, he just spammed the highest viewed thread on the site with 26106 views. 

Ok, now die spammer.


----------



## robbyreflex

#¤% spammers!


----------



## jock_071279

Just a quick question about liv52/Milk thistle. Do you take them on the 14 days off? As I've heard that they can hinder gains if you take them while on dbol.

Cheers,

Jock


----------



## samurai691436114498

jock_071279 said:


> Just a quick question about liv52/Milk thistle. Do you take them on the 14 days off? As I've heard that they can hinder gains if you take them while on dbol.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Jock


i took them in the earlier cycles and only for the off cycles as far as i can remember, i may have tried them during the on cycles, but i cant remember.............TBH i stopped taking them after about the 3rd cycle


----------



## jock_071279

samurai69 said:


> i took them in the earlier cycles and only for the off cycles as far as i can remember, i may have tried them during the on cycles, but i cant remember.............TBH i stopped taking them after about the 3rd cycle


Cool, Thanks for the info.

Jock


----------



## spreadercraig

Sam69,

Which dosage gave best overall bang for buck? 5, 10 or 15mg?

Meaning...If you were to start over, which dosage would you go for to get the best gains overall?

Cheers

Craig


----------



## samurai691436114498

10mg, but i would start at 5mg until gains had stooped, maybe 2 or 3 cycles then up to 10.................dont think i would ever go as high as 15 again


----------



## on-the-up

hey. ive never heard of 14 on 14 off on dbol. im on them 4 weeks now 1week 2 5mg 3 times a day. from 2nd week 3 5mg 3 times a day thats 45mg. i asked a couple of guys i no who have used it and they all say the same. ive heard from 2 r 3 mad bastards who say they took 15 to 20 a day!! i have put on weight but havent got grate gains. ive started sust and deca today also im gona run 1 mg of each twice per week for 4 weeks. ive talked to a few guys about what im doing and they say its cool. im going to still take the dbol for 2 more week till there gone. id like to know what yous think. cheers


----------



## winger

What are your stats mate?


----------



## Scottswald

which page was your after pictures on???


----------



## Chris4Pez1436114538

:bump: this is what i was thinking about taking for my first cycle sometime after Christmas (6months after maybe don't know yet) so this will make for an interesting read!


----------



## irwit

Its taken a few weeks but Ive finally read this entire thread, (having a spare 10 mins here and there at work) also read alot on the 13stone target thread aswell.

I have to give a big thanks to sam69, cookie and everyone else for their input. Its a fantastic read.

Im just ordering myself some now, Im going to start on 5mg for first 3 months and see how it effects me.

Sorry for Hijacking thread but doesnt anyone anything about

Brit Dragon Methanabol (Dianabol) 10mg

as this is what I will be ordering.

Thanks again


----------



## 13stonetarget

If you want to do 5mg ED, you're better off buying 5mg tabs mate, not 10's


----------



## irwit

Yeah I know but these are the only ones I can get hold of, I was hoping I could snap them in half or something similar. Are you still on same cycle 13 stone ? Your thread got very quiet for a while ?

Also picked up some B12 and Milk Thistle other day and Clomid ( just in case !!! )


----------



## samurai691436114498

irwit said:


> Yeah I know but these are the only ones I can get hold of, I was hoping I could snap them in half or something similar. Are you still on same cycle 13 stone ? Your thread got very quiet for a while ?
> 
> Also picked up some B12 and Milk Thistle other day and Clomid ( just in case !!! )


theres no real reason why you cant split a 10mg tab, it might be a little more vague on quantity .....you can do it with asprin etc and they have a handy split down the middle of most


----------



## winger

These work great. Here is the website.


----------



## kalispimenta

Sorry to bring this back but i have some Naps do try the 14day cycle. My question is, should i take 10 or 15mg and should i take some proviron since i have in hand? Also did you ended up by using the nolva?

Thank You


----------



## fits

kalispimenta said:


> Sorry to bring this back but i have some Naps do try the 14day cycle. My question is, should i take 10 or 15mg and should i take some proviron since i have in hand? Also did you ended up by using the nolva?
> 
> Thank You


 Start with 10mg and see what happens, sam69 actualy went down to 5mg so you might want to try that. Kepp nolva incase you feel symptoms of gyno. But you PROBABLY wont need it.


----------



## Cookie

Start with 5mgs...imho...

Some people can`t handle 10mgs due to being sensitive to eastrogen


----------



## kalispimenta

Thank you for the replies.What about the proviron?Thank You


----------



## justdiscovering

@5mg do you need liver protector?appart from the 10 pints of water a day.i was told that a weekend on the lash would do more damage,also [email protected] days with 21 off.surely as long as the water and anti oxidents were kept high would this be ok???or is it a case of better safe than sorry?


----------



## fits

kalispimenta said:


> Thank you for the replies.What about the proviron?Thank You


 I would not bother with it


----------



## kalispimenta

justdiscovering said:


> @5mg do you need liver protector?appart from the 10 pints of water a day.i was told that a weekend on the lash would do more damage,also [email protected] days with 21 off.surely as long as the water and anti oxidents were kept high would this be ok???or is it a case of better safe than sorry?


I started with 15mg and my system went berserk, i got hot,ready to kill the world and nauseous, i stepped down to 5 mg after reading some posts and i have been having better workouts,seems like that rage with 15mg gave me more strength, but the side effects i was having were to worth it.Also what does lash mean?


----------



## fits

are you doing 14x14 kalispimenta?


----------



## kalispimenta

fits said:


> are you doing 14x14 kalispimenta?


Yes i just started it.


----------



## dmcc

kalispimenta said:


> Also what does lash mean?


"Going out on the lash" means getting very, very drunk.


----------



## kalispimenta

Thank you here in Yankee land we don't use that expression,lol


----------



## winger

dmcc said:


> "Going out on the lash" means getting very, very drunk.


Isn't that what pis sed means too?


----------



## dmcc

Yes, yes it does. But then I'm Irish and we have about 300 words for getting drunk.


----------



## NeilpWest

kalispimenta said:


> I started with 15mg and my system went berserk, i got hot,ready to kill the world and nauseous, i stepped down to 5 mg after reading some posts and i have been having better workouts,seems like that rage with 15mg gave me more strength, but the side effects i was having were to worth it.Also what does lash mean?


strange how diff people react so differently i am trying dbol out for 6-8weeks just to see what its like so i can use to kick start my next cycle and ive had to up it to 60mg aday to notice any gains started at 20mg and i might as well not have been taking any thing, still have had no blood pressure issues etc like i did with test either.


----------



## Cookie

NeilpWest said:


> *strange how diff people react so differently* i am trying dbol out for 6-8weeks just to see what its like so i can use to kick start my next cycle and ive had to up it to 60mg aday to notice any gains started at 20mg and i might as well not have been taking any thing, still have had no blood pressure issues etc like i did with test either.


Hence the reason why I always recommend very low dose first cycle advice, we never know how somebody will react to any particular drug and once its in its in.

So do you take a chance and use a longer acting test at the usually forum recommended doses of 250-500mgs or play it safe and simple and use an oral at 5-10mgs?

I know which I would prefer...


----------



## NeilpWest

ONE SMART COOKIE said:


> Hence the reason why I always recommend very low dose first cycle advice, we never know how somebody will react to any particular drug and once its in its in.
> 
> So do you take a chance and use a longer acting test at the usually forum recommended doses of 250-500mgs or play it safe and simple and use an oral at 5-10mgs?
> 
> I know which I would prefer...


Yea agree mate my 1st cycle i did 250 ew test to gauge how i would take it. Im currently trying dbol i started it at 20mg and didnt get any thing so i have gradually upped the dose.


----------



## 13stonetarget

ONE SMART COOKIE said:


> Hence the reason why I always recommend very low dose first cycle advice, we never know how somebody will react to any particular drug and once its in its in.
> 
> So do you take a chance and use a longer acting test at the usually forum recommended doses of 250-500mgs or play it safe and simple and use an oral at 5-10mgs?
> 
> I know which I would prefer...


It makes a whole lot of sense. I'm glad I decided to take that route rather than anything else.


----------



## winger

ONE SMART COOKIE said:


> Hence the reason why I always recommend very low dose first cycle advice, we never know how somebody will react to any particular drug and once its in its in.
> 
> So do you take a chance and use a longer acting test at the usually forum recommended doses of 250-500mgs or play it safe and simple and use an oral at 5-10mgs?
> 
> I know which I would prefer...


Why not take a shorter acting tes like prop? That's what the body produces anyways.


----------



## Captain Hero

winger said:


> Why not take a shorter acting tes like prop? That's what the body produces anyways.


Short low dosage test prop   sounds good


----------



## winger

Well tes is the grandaddy of steroids. If they put a guy on trt/hrt they don't give them dbol and orals are harder on the body are they not?


----------



## justdiscovering

im on trt on test undeaconate 30mg tabs.


----------



## Cookie

winger said:


> Why not take a shorter acting tes like prop? That's what the body produces anyways.


Did prop with Shovelman (check his journal) but the days on off needs altering to work with half lifes etc..


----------



## winger

justdiscovering said:


> im on trt on test undeaconate 30mg tabs.


That is the first time I have heard that.


----------



## kalispimenta

The funny thing is i remember back in the day when i had to pop 5-6 ecstasy's for my brain to start kicking, i guess different drugs, different bodies, different effects.Anyway i upped to 10mg and still good no s.e..We'll see


----------



## Tall

BigMatt1985 said:


> Hey all,
> 
> I am looking for advice. I live in the UK - it is legal to posess dianabol and legal to take it.
> 
> What I need to know is where I can get it - I am also looking for clomid or nolvadex or both as I'm planning on starting my first cycle.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Matt


No sourcing.


----------



## winger

Calling yourself big matt, you probably don't need any gear, just a proper diet.


----------



## Lux

Hi samurai, thought i'd post this here as your reply may also be of benefit to others using the 14x14.

Just rereading other posts on this method and was wondering how you gauged if somebody needed to take the trib and zinc or not to bother?

My plan is to be taking for 10 days:

creatine

1000mg trib morning and evening

zma before bed

I also read that 14x21 *might* be better as the body will possibly desensitise to the dbol and then cause you to get better bang for your buck once you start back on?


----------



## samurai691436114498

Lux said:


> Hi samurai, thought i'd post this here as your reply may also be of benefit to others using the 14x14.
> 
> Just rereading other posts on this method and was wondering how you gauged if somebody needed to take the trib and zinc or not to bother?
> 
> My plan is to be taking for 10 days:
> 
> creatine
> 
> 1000mg trib morning and evening
> 
> zma before bed
> 
> I also read that 14x21 *might* be better as the body will possibly desensitise to the dbol and then cause you to get better bang for your buck once you start back on?


let me try to answer the second bit first, when i was doing the 14 x14, during the last day or two of the 14 days on i felt the d-bol kicking in and a boost in my training intensity, so by adding an extra 2 days here would feel the effects/benefits in my training a little more, without risking any additional shutdown, then by adding extra days to the off cycle, i would recover a little more from the longer layoff, also with 21 days off and taking trib and creatine, the extra few days would allow a few extra days of total rest.

as for the first part of the question, i can only really go from my experiances and in the first 2 or 3 cycles i took the trib and creatine, in the next 2 cycles i had run out of trib and by the 6th or so cycle i didnt have any creatine left...............so on my part it was lazyness really...........but, when i was taking the creatine i noticed it did help, i think the trib is a way of speeding up the recovery process.

so maybe try it as the 16 x 21 and then during the off part go with your 10 days with all the supplements, then after the 10 days stick with the creatine for another few days and then stop everything for the last 7 days of the off time................just a suggestion


----------



## Lux

Thanks for that mate.

On day 2 of time off now so might see about possibly extending to 16 days on next time.

Still considering going back on after 14 days rather than 21 as was just taking 5mg naposims. Got plenty of time to decide what i'll do so my thoughts might change yet


----------



## samurai691436114498

Lux said:


> Thanks for that mate.
> 
> On day 2 of time off now so might see about possibly extending to 16 days on next time.
> 
> Still considering going back on after 14 days rather than 21 as was just taking 5mg naposims. Got plenty of time to decide what i'll do so my thoughts might change yet


didnt realise you were actually on a cycle, is it the first one of 14x14, if so try that for a couple of cycles and then try 16x21 for a couple and see the difference................i certainly noticed the diference between 14 and 16 days on


----------



## Lux

samurai69 said:


> didnt realise you were actually on a cycle, is it the first one of 14x14, if so try that for a couple of cycles and then try 16x21 for a couple and see the difference................i certainly noticed the diference between 14 and 16 days on


Yeah mate. Just finished the 1st cycle of 14 on. Weight was fluctuating but strength continued to increase.

Towards the end of my 2 weeks on i was starting to feel kind of beat up as my workload had got a bit more busy compared to previous weeks. That along with the fact i was pushing hard in the gym and struggling to get quality sleep has led me to having a deload week at the moment.


----------



## bristol-trance

When should I be looking to take creatine

half am and half pm??? or just before training?

Going to get some mono 2moro as it will be my first day off cycle


----------



## Lux

bristol-trance said:


> When should I be looking to take creatine
> 
> half am and half pm??? or just before training?
> 
> Going to get some mono 2moro as it will be my first day off cycle


I personally just have mine in my post workout shake mate. Or if not training i just take one lot in the afternoon

How much dbol have you been taking?


----------



## MXD

This is a great journal samurai69, its thought me so much.

I'm now leaning heavily towards a low d-bol dosage 5mg for a 14on 14 off.

Many thanks for sharing your experiences.


----------



## samurai691436114498

MXD said:


> This is a great journal samurai69, its thought me so much.
> 
> I'm now leaning heavily towards a low d-bol dosage 5mg for a 14on 14 off.
> 
> Many thanks for sharing your experiences.


thats cool...............maybe think about the 16 on 21 off, which i was discussing earlier in the thread...........i did feel the extra days on gave me a training boost and the 21 days off (should) give you better recovery

but either way, i hope it works ok for you


----------



## Lux

Tomorrow is last day of the 10 days of trib and zma. Havn't really bothered with much creatine as didn't feel i was holding water, so no need to try and retain it.

I'm a bit unsure about what to do with the zma tho?

Part of me is saying to stop taking it and clear my body of any test boosting supps before i go back on cycle on sunday.

But on the other hand, zma is a very good supp to aid in recovery so maybe still take it?

I'm leaning more towards clean my system in prep for back on the dbol?

Whats your thoughts mate?

And for anybody checking progress. Weight fluctuated a bit and strength gained very well. If work wasn't as demanding on the 2nd week "on" then i would have broke PB's at every workout. I still broke some so its all good.

I've lost fat and generally look better in the mirror. Back in the gym today after taking a weeks break so the numbers should be rising again vey soon


----------



## winger

Lux said:


> I'm a bit unsure about what to do with the zma tho?


I would take it on an empty stomach before bed and get a really good night sleep.

Sleep is so important. Lack of good quality sleep can give you low tes levels, low hgh levels and can make you carry more body fat, not to mention recovery from a good workout.

So take your zma!


----------



## samurai691436114498

> *Part of me is saying to stop taking it and clear my body* of any test boosting supps before i go back on cycle on sunday.


*i would agree with that*

*.*



> I would suggest that you quit the zma after this bit of off period as the body needs to rest, stabilise, plus the gear will boost his recovery so zma isn`t needed...


----------



## fits

any plans sam to try any other 14x14 style cycles.. :rolleye11


----------



## MXD

So what in your opinion is the best way to run this protocol?

I've been reading cheefx's posts about; taken 25 days on 17 off then 25 days on 24 days off.

What are your opinions on this?

The whole idea of me doing this is just to boost growth abit without dosing large amounts of aas.


----------



## samurai691436114498

fits said:


> any plans sam to try any other 14x14 style cycles.. :rolleye11


yes

16 x 21 t bol on same starting dose of 5mg, but not until i am able to train with back at the gym........only some d bells (and the beach) at the moment


----------



## samurai691436114498

MXD said:


> So what in your opinion is the best way to run this protocol?
> 
> I've been reading cheefx's posts about; taken 25 days on 17 off then 25 days on 24 days off.
> 
> What are your opinions on this?
> 
> The whole idea of me doing this is just to boost growth abit without dosing large amounts of aas.


well i was moving towards the 16 on 21 off route at the end of my cycles as i explained earlier, but i think the 14x14 is definately simpler and it worked well for me over a good few cycles

.


----------



## irwit

just a note for the questions on zma. Do not take within a couple of hours of calcium. Calcium stops the absorbsion of zma into the body and so no point taking it.

I leave my zma by the bed with a bottle of water and just as im noddin off get it down me.


----------



## Lux

irwit said:


> just a note for the questions on zma. Do not take within a couple of hours of calcium. Calcium stops the absorbsion of zma into the body and so no point taking it.
> 
> I leave my zma by the bed with a bottle of water and just as im noddin off get it down me.


Good points there mate.

I think Winger got it a bit mixed up when he read my post. I was questioning whether to clear the body of any testosterone boosting supplements before going back on cycle after 4 days of having a clean system.

I've used zma over the years so i'm aware of its benefits and when to take etc, but its always extra info for those that aren't clued up


----------



## irwit

Well to my knowledge of zma all it does is promote more natural test so I would think it would enhance the theory of the 14x14 that you try your best to keep your natural test levels as high as possible on and off the d bol.


----------



## gym_smash

Hey Samurai please can you e-mail me I have read your thread and have an urgent question but the site won't allow my question and I haven't made 50 posts so I cannot e-mail you to ask.

My e-mail is [email protected]

Thanks

Matt


----------



## samurai691436114498

BigMatt1985 said:


> Hey Samurai please can you e-mail me I have read your thread and have an urgent question but the site won't allow my question and I haven't made 50 posts so I cannot e-mail you to ask.
> 
> My e-mail is [email protected]
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Matt


ok


----------



## mattymerri

anyone know abot apnpharmacy if there legit or not?

also does anyone know if using thibulis is a good way to boost testosterone after a cycle of d-bol and winstrol when doin clomid therapy?

cheers


----------



## Tall

BigMatt1985 said:


> Hey Samurai please can you e-mail me I have read your thread and have an urgent question but the site won't allow my question and I haven't made 50 posts so I cannot e-mail you to ask.
> 
> My e-mail is [email protected]
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Matt


We now have your name, and know where you work...


----------



## winger

TH&S said:


> We now have your name, and know where you work...


And your age. 23 

I would delete that after a few days Matt. 

I did that on a msn thread and when you did a google search UK-M was at the top and I got hundreds of requests.


----------



## kalispimenta

Hey guys so i did the naps for 1 month 15mg a day,with creatine,protein,milk thistle,omega,amino and a multi with a reasonable diet.I gained 18 pounds a bunch of water!! Guys i gained weight!!! My workouts were ok,i got some awesome pumps in some workouts but others i got some back pain (reported before) which made my workout feel like crap,sex good,strength was up but some days the naps made me really tired,those days i pooped an ECA stack and it really got me going.Hair loss is there and also acne,very thirsty,under the thong naps made really feel the "rush".

One thing i noticed is after working out next day my muscles really hurt, i guess that's good.Good luck everyone.


----------



## winger

kalispimenta said:


> i pooped an ECA stack and it really got me going.


Proof reading is always in order...lol

Not having a go mate, I just love typos.


----------



## Fatboy80

LOL very funny, gotta love that sort of typo!


----------



## fits

winger said:


> Proof reading is always in order...lol
> 
> Not having a go mate, I just love typos.


 Hair loss on that does? you must be very prone!

so the 6th of June thread continues 

so how long are we looking at before we get your Tbol thread Sam?


----------



## samurai691436114498

fits said:


> Hair loss on that does? you must be very prone!
> 
> so the 6th of June thread continues
> 
> so how long are we looking at before we get your Tbol thread Sam?


not for a month or so....................still training at home and the beach and with the weights i have at home i dont think it would be totally worthwhile

i may just try them for a week to see if theres any sides, but wont include that in any new thread.........may stick it in here if i do feel anything of any kind

.


----------



## kalispimenta

winger said:


> Proof reading is always in order...lol
> 
> Not having a go mate, I just love typos.


LOL,sorry I was writing on a ECA/PORTUGUESE language/AMERICAN language STACK:crazy: got me all messed up,it did spell check it, but i selected the wrong one.all

Keep :lift:


----------



## winger

kalispimenta said:


> LOL,sorry I was writing on a ECA/PORTUGUESE language/AMERICAN language STACK:crazy: got me all messed up,it did spell check it, but i selected the wrong one.all
> 
> Keep :lift:


No need to explain mate. You have a great sense of humor


----------



## GingerNinja

hey fellas,

i'm new to all this. But i am on D-bol DS its a blue tab an 10mg...i have been taking 10 tabs a day for last 2 weeks, also Nitortech four times a day one scoop each time, stacked with True Mass one scoop to, also on ephedrine as well.. alot i know(well i think it is??lol) I am also eating food like its goin out of fashion, Veg, meat, fish an carbs. I train one body part each day an have a days rest after chest or a back workout. I am training for about 60 - 80 mins aday. Can u please tell me if i'm doing things right an if there are any ways of improving it.

Much Appreciated.


----------



## Captain Hero

GingerNinja said:


> hey fellas,
> 
> i'm new to all this. But i am on D-bol DS its a blue tab an 10mg...i have been taking 10 tabs a day for last 2 weeks, also Nitortech four times a day one scoop each time, stacked with True Mass one scoop to, also on ephedrine as well.. alot i know(well i think it is??lol) I am also eating food like its goin out of fashion, Veg, meat, fish an carbs. I train one body part each day an have a days rest after chest or a back workout. I am training for about 60 - 80 mins aday. Can u please tell me if i'm doing things right an if there are any ways of improving it.
> 
> Much Appreciated.


Welcome to the board Ginger Ninja  You would more than likely get a better response if you made your own thread mate


----------



## GingerNinja

hey mate,

Thanks for advice, how do i do that?? LOL


----------



## Captain Hero

GingerNinja said:


> hey mate,
> 
> Thanks for advice, how do i do that?? LOL


On the main menu mate you will see a number of sub forums, choose the relevant one in your case it would be the Steroid section, once in there is a button "create new thread" 

Welcome again mate


----------



## winger

Good call Capster and welcome to the board GN.


----------



## jock_071279

Hi,

Just looking for advice really. Do you think someone who has done 2 previous 6 week dbol cycles (dosages of 40mg a day) can benefit from changing to this cycle (ie 16x21). I was looking at the 10 week 15/20md a day with weekends off but maybe this would be better for longer term gains.

Thanks for any help

Jock


----------



## Lost Soul

As Nike say

"Just do it"

Test that is, not 10 weeks of dbol

The idea of weekends off is too a poor one


----------



## samurai691436114498

jock_071279 said:


> Hi,
> 
> Just looking for advice really. Do you think someone who has done 2 previous 6 week dbol cycles (dosages of 40mg a day) can benefit from changing to this cycle (ie 16x21). I was looking at the 10 week 15/20md a day with weekends off but maybe this would be better for longer term gains.
> 
> Thanks for any help
> 
> Jock


16 x 21 or 14 x 14 are bothe very different to the low dose d-bol with weekends off

.


----------



## dogs32

hello everyone....Im new to this site and would like to say a massive big thankyou to Sam and the others for this journal/.I have gainned so much info from start to finish...Its took me 4 days to read on and off.

Im very shortly going to start my first cycle of Dbol but have a delay on Thistle milk and Clomid.......Is it Ok to use Clomid instead of Nova...though saying that I have Nova xt....Just a bit uncertain about Nova after reading the cancer reads on Google...any ideas anyone..Or am I toooooo paranoid

cheers

EDIT...just to add I found out Novadex xt isnt the same..lol.....now I ve ordered tamoxifen which is Nolvadex


----------



## samurai691436114498

dogs32 said:


> hello everyone....Im new to this site and would like to say a massive big thankyou to Sam and the others for this journal/.I have gainned so much info from start to finish...Its took me 4 days to read on and off.
> 
> Im very shortly going to start my first cycle of Dbol but have a delay on Thistle milk and Clomid.......Is it Ok to use Clomid instead of Nova...though saying that I have Nova xt....Just a bit uncertain about Nova after reading the cancer reads on Google...any ideas anyone..Or am I toooooo paranoid
> 
> cheers
> 
> EDIT...just to add I found out Novadex xt isnt the same..lol.....now I ve ordered tamoxifen which is Nolvadex


.


----------



## cwoody123

Watch out when considering this protocol...there is no evidence to say you will not get shutdown which in turn could lead to long term endocrine problems.


----------



## samurai691436114498

cwoody123 said:


> Watch out when considering this protocol...there is no evidence to say you will not get shutdown which in turn could lead to long term endocrine problems.


C woody .......you are a total CUN T

Fu6k ooff


----------



## cwoody123

Why? because i am teeling people the truth!...why don't you post up your bloodwork before and after to show there is some evidence to suggest this works how you detail it too?


----------



## samurai691436114498

cwoody123 said:


> Why? because i am teeling people the truth!...why don't you post up your bloodwork before and after to show there is some evidence to suggest this works how you detail it too?


truth..............you are wearing thos blinkers again...............you wouldnt know the truth if it bit you on the As5

Now heres an offer for you

come to portugal for two weeks, you can stay at my villa and i will train you at my gym here.......for free!!..........all you pay for is flights over and food

anytime between november 2008 and feb 2009

train with me.......NO DRUGS and i promise you, that you will go back fitter and stronger

There you go!!...............now Put up or shut UP !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

.


----------



## Guest

> truth..............you are wearing thos blinkers again...............you wouldnt know the truth if it bit you on the As5
> 
> Now heres an offer for you
> 
> come to portugal for two weeks, you can stay at my villa and i will train you at my gym here.......for free!!..........all you pay for is flights over and food
> 
> anytime between november 2008 and feb 2009
> 
> train with me.......NO DRUGS and i promise you, that you will go back fitter and stronger
> 
> There you go!!...............now Put up or shut UP !!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Well if he is not interested i'll take you up on the offer ???? or should i post some **** first to get the invite ?? ;o)


----------



## Guest

as this is a very very long thread what Pct is going on ??


----------



## cwoody123

Mate you really don't have to get so hot headed! All i am saying is i would like to see blood work on this as i have my doubts...surely there is someone one willing to to get before and after bloods done just to confirm your theories, i don't think it sensible to recommend this until you know for sure that people are not being shutdown.

You know your nuts can remain normal looking having low testosterone and you really don't need much testosterone to maintain sexual function...my worry is people could end up partially shutdown without even knowing it.

Mate i am not going to give you my address as i don't think your intent on a freindly chat and a pint are you!

Thanks for the offer to come over also...In case i come over i should let you know i am a 9 in shoe size...just gives you a heads up so you can get the concrete boots made up! lol

Seriously you are taking all this far to personally!


----------



## hackskii

For what it is worth, I do have a friend (Tim) who did 2 weeks on 2 weeks off low dose and he went to the doctor to do blood work and he had the testosterone of a girl.

He is a member of this board and he can attest to this if you wish.

He is a bit older so this could compromise recovery to some degree.

Right now his doctor put him on Androgel.

Anyone tells you that 2 weeks on 2 off will not suppress is totally mistaken, my friend has the blood work to prove it.


----------



## dogs32

I cant believe what I just read!!!..I thought everything was fine with all that I read through his experiments

I have the real thing now NOVALDEX.....Also after cycle i will useTrib..and creative....I have started the cycle....

All seems to be going well...apart from the odd pains around my knees...

I really thought what Sam did was good....I will use a strong dose of trib after cycle and Nova xt version....

I am very new to this as I have only been training for 4 months...


----------



## 007

your an idiot ,you have been lifting for 4 months and you have started a cycle.......your the kind of person who gives aas a bad name.



dogs32 said:


> I cant believe what I just read!!!..I thought everything was fine with all that I read through his experiments
> 
> I have the real thing now NOVALDEX.....Also after cycle i will useTrib..and creative....I have started the cycle....
> 
> All seems to be going well...apart from the odd pains around my knees...
> 
> I really thought what Sam did was good....I will use a strong dose of trib after cycle and Nova xt version....
> 
> I am very new to this as I have only been training for 4 months...


----------



## dogs32

I cant see why Im an idiot..thats your opion...I am already a very fit person

And have done weights before throughout my life....And another thing I have spent months of researching all....I haven't just jumped in the deep end....

I dont intend to take large doses at all....Infact my experiment is to see if a very..VERY small dose can keep me longer at the gym before failure...

Encouragement and advice mate go along way.....reason why I should Stop



007 said:


> your an idiot ,you have been lifting for 4 months and you have started a cycle.......your the kind of person who gives aas a bad name.


----------



## 007

what is your planned cycle and pct?also what are your stats.

starting your own thread would be good.


----------



## Lost Soul

dogs32 said:


> I cant see why Im an idiot..thats your opion...I am already a very fit person
> 
> And have done weights before throughout my life....And another thing I have spent months of researching all....I haven't just jumped in the deep end....
> 
> I dont intend to take large doses at all....Infact my experiment is to see if a very..VERY small dose can keep me longer at the gym before failure...
> 
> Encouragement and advice mate go along way.....reason why I should Stop


Many will agree with 007

4 months of training

some help below if you click the link about new steroid users


----------



## dogs32

007 said:


> what is your planned cycle and pct?also what are your stats.
> 
> starting your own thread would be good.


I realy didnt wont all the attention to be honest to start my own thread..because I know some of you lot out there are massive compared to me...Im 42yrs

5'8

165 pounds

15 inch biceps

chest 40

If that helps....

Im on Milk Thistle everyday/flaxseed/vitaminc/ect....

PCT...

Trib/creatine...Nolvadex.and nolvadex Xt......

a very small dose of Dbol. every 14 daysVERY.its an experiment to see if I can stay longer on weights..........I Do Not Intend to go higher on Roids

Now your probably going to laugh at my set up.....but I can tell I certainly have got stronger....but its probably all in the mind of being on them.

Just wont to see if I can comfortably do this without any major probs

thx.Lost Soul.I just dont wont alot of fuss like Sam got.....I use this forum for all advice...

any funny stuff of these dbol.Im off it...

let me just add why I started....because I have been working really hard 3 days a week in the gym with my brother..who is 22..

He is exploding.no steroids!!!...me well VERY slowy growing..thats the reason....doesnt matter how hard I push...I thought at this rate i will be 60 before I have a decent shape...Maybe thats a bad reason..but a honest one


----------



## 007

dogs32 said:


> I realy didnt wont all the attention to be honest to start my own thread..because I know some of you lot out there are massive compared to me...Im 42yrs
> 
> 5'8
> 
> 165 pounds
> 
> 15 inch biceps
> 
> chest 40
> 
> If that helps....
> 
> Im on Milk Thistle everyday/flaxseed/vitaminc/ect....
> 
> PCT...
> 
> Trib/creatine...Nolvadex.and nolvadex Xt......
> 
> and a very small dose of Dbol.VERY.its an experiment to see if I can stay longer on weights..........I Do Not Intend to go higher
> 
> Now your probably going to laugh at my set up.....but I can tell I certainly have got stronger....but its probably all in the mind of being on them.
> 
> Just wont to see if I can comfortably do this without any major probs
> 
> thx.Lost Soul.I just dont wont alot of fuss like Sam got.....I use this forum for all advice...
> 
> any funny stuff of these dbol.Im off it...


put your cycle down like this.

weeks 1-? ?mgs dbol every day

pct weeks 1-4 ? mgs nolva ed.

and why the hell you running nolvadex xt (dont even know what this is )and nolva


----------



## dogs32

thx....Novedex xt....suppose to be an anti estrogene..and test booster

After reading many threads on here I decided to get the nolva ed...

I was just going to do 14 days Dbol..14 off.....and only use nova ed if I needed..but with such a small dose Im hoping I wont need.......so use NOVEDEX XT instead..is this a bad idea...should I run Nolva any way...

Appreciate advice on that....

I am eating 4,000 cals a day..good food....ect...tons of protein as well....gaining a few pounds a week at present..no bloating...

Getting big on the shoulders.....


----------



## Lost Soul

14 days? waste of time

novadex is not suitable as PCT either


----------



## dogs32

Lost Soul said:


> 14 days? waste of time
> 
> novadex is not suitable as PCT either


thx....just nova ed then....can I just ask is it best if I do 21 days on 14 days off then


----------



## dogs32

getting confused with...novedex and nova.....so your saying dont use nova..the advice is really valuable...


----------



## Lost Soul

no the whole cycle is sh1te

14 days of dbol is not worth it

14 days of nova is not suitable

do a real cycle or dont bother

a real cycle is 6-8 weeks of dbol, nolvadex and clomid PCT


----------



## dogs32

Lost Soul said:


> no the whole cycle is sh1te
> 
> 14 days of dbol is not worth it
> 
> 14 days of nova is not suitable
> 
> do a real cycle or dont bother
> 
> a real cycle is 6-8 weeks of dbol, nolvadex and clomid PCT


Excellent...I take your advice..Im glad I posted on here..was just an observer

will do....a 6 weeks of Dbol......and I take it follow the course of nolvadex and clomid...Ive seen on here that cycle somewhere.....how you gradually change bring it down on the cycle....thanks guys for your help...

Like I say I dont intend to increase high dosage of dbol


----------



## 007

weeks 1-6 30-35 mgs dbol every day

couple off days after last dbol start pct.

nolva 20mgs ed for 30 days

clomid 50mgs ed for 30 days.

even better would be

weeks 1-12 500mgs test e every week.

same pct .

but as i said you are not ready for anabolics but you are going to do it any way so i will give you the best advise i can


----------



## dogs32

007 said:


> weeks 1-6 30-35 mgs dbol every day
> 
> couple off days after last dbol start pct.
> 
> nolva 20mgs ed for 30 days
> 
> clomid 50mgs ed for 30 days.
> 
> even better would be
> 
> weeks 1-12 500mgs test e every week.
> 
> same pct .
> 
> but as i said you are not ready for anabolics but you are going to do it any way so i will give you the best advise i can


cheers mate..I will print that out..I take all advice seriously


----------



## cwoody123

Finally! people starting to talk sense on this post


----------



## Captain Hero

cwoody123 said:


> Finally! people starting to talk sense on this post


its a good post, it worked for Samurai and has worked for others too.

There is no need to trash a post just because it didnt work for you.


----------



## cwoody123

No mate it didn't work for me as i was probably the only one apart from Hacks mate to get there blood work done...guess what?...he was shut down hard too!

We really need to see some evidence that it does not shut you down...as stated before you can maintain sexual function even on relatively low T so you would not necessarily see that your shut down.

All i want to see is blood work and if it turns out that it does not shut people down then i will hold my hands up!

But i think it is a little irresponsible let people follow this protocol without knowing its effects...the evidence is already leaning towards the fact that it does not work.


----------



## ba baracuss

dogs32 said:


> I cant see why Im an idiot..thats your opion...I am already a very fit person
> 
> And have done weights before throughout my life....And another thing I have spent months of researching all....I haven't just jumped in the deep end....
> 
> I dont intend to take large doses at all....Infact my experiment is to see if a very..VERY small dose can *keep me longer at the gym before failure*...
> 
> Encouragement and advice mate go along way.....reason why I should Stop


Have you looked into creatine, caffeine, ephedrine mate?

They should all help you get some more reps.


----------



## darkiwi

i recently done two 14/14 cycles at 10mg ED , i got water and a lil shut down nothing major though. plus my missis is f*cking hot so i had no truble geting it going 

i think the 14/14 ect cycles are great to start on for a first timer i think most people starting off with d-bol ect should start on a small cycle get a feel for what it does to them. just my thoughts though


----------



## Jimmy1

cwoody123 said:


> No mate it didn't work for me as i was probably the only one apart from Hacks mate to get there blood work done...guess what?...he was shut down hard too!
> 
> We really need to see some evidence that it does not shut you down...as stated before you can maintain sexual function even on relatively low T so you would not necessarily see that your shut down.
> 
> All i want to see is blood work and if it turns out that it does not shut people down then i will hold my hands up!
> 
> But i think it is a little irresponsible let people follow this protocol without knowing its effects...the evidence is already leaning towards the fact that it does not work.


i wont comment on shutdown but i have a mate who has only ever followed this cycle

he loves it....gives him just enough to get where he wants to

horses for courses


----------



## fits

cwoody123 said:


> No mate it didn't work for me as i was probably the only one apart from Hacks mate to get there blood work done...guess what?...he was shut down hard too!
> 
> We really need to see some evidence that it does not shut you down...as stated before you can maintain sexual function even on relatively low T so you would not necessarily see that your shut down.
> 
> All i want to see is blood work and if it turns out that it does not shut people down then i will hold my hands up!
> 
> But i think it is a little irresponsible let people follow this protocol without knowing its effects...the evidence is already leaning towards the fact that it does not work.


 I think the point of this journal was to see what would happen, an experment, sam took the educated risk to test this theory and if you read it, it shows he he made about a stone of lean gains with no ill effects. Now you have a point about blood works etc and it would be good to see ,BUT, you cannot go about rubbishing this method just because it didnt work for you. From what i have readyou have had many problems!

People that train for a few months then start injecting 500mg test with Dbol etc thats dangerous and stupid. all the studies I have read suggest that gains and sides are dose dependent. I know a fair few old boys that took gear for YEARS and all have had problems in later life (mid 50's to mid 60's) and all have thier own reason to believe it was due to AAS use....to some degree, so trying to find a low dose alternative to todays super cycles seems sensible doesn't it???

woody, i think you and sam have had personal disagreements so maybe your views are not altogether unblinkered, so maybe you should not be on here slagging this method off???


----------



## cwoody123

Mate i am not here slagging the method off...i would love to find it works! But in reality i have my doubts. the reason these old boys had problems is that they didn't run PCT as it was not even heard of.

The longer your body is in a hypo gonadal state the more chance there is of permanent damage!...So lets say hypothetically that this low dose Dbol cycle does shut you down to lets say 9 nmol ...you would most likely have sexual function and your balls will look ok but your old test level used to be 22nmol. Your body then determines that this is its new set point so you are left partially hypogondal!

This is why blood work is vital and will once and for all put this to rest!

As far as i am concerned i have no gripes towards Samurai...i think he was a little out of order at times and should not have slagged off a senior moderator in such a way. I belive that Cookie & Samurai both had plenty to offer they just would not allow people to question there methods.

At the end of the day Samurai made gains there is no doubting that, but ultimately that was because he was taking AAS (regardless of the dose!) the long term damage could already be done...without blood work we can't know for sure!


----------



## winger

cwoody123 said:


> Mate i am not here slagging the method off...i would love to find it works! But in reality i have my doubts. the reason these old boys had problems is that they didn't run PCT as it was not even heard of.
> 
> The longer your body is in a hypo gonadal state the more chance there is of permanent damage!...So lets say hypothetically that this low dose Dbol cycle does shut you down to lets say 9 nmol ...you would most likely have sexual function and your balls will look ok but your old test level used to be 22nmol. Your body then determines that this is its new set point so you are left partially hypogondal!
> 
> This is why blood work is vital and will once and for all put this to rest!
> 
> As far as i am concerned i have no gripes towards Samurai...i think he was a little out of order at times and should not have slagged off a senior moderator in such a way. I belive that Cookie & Samurai both had plenty to offer they just would not allow people to question there methods.
> 
> At the end of the day Samurai made gains there is no doubting that, but ultimately that was because he was taking AAS (regardless of the dose!) the long term damage could already be done...without blood work we can't know for sure!


I could not agree more. How can you debate the fact that blood work wasn't done? Hell, even cholesterol is affected in as short as 21 days doing gear. How do I know this? Because I have the blood work to confirm this.

I never comment on any gear thread but I feel I need to at this point.

If I ever did gear for my first time I would do testosterone for my first go.

Why? Because why get shut down from dbol when it isn't even testosterone that my body produces naturally.

Also, if your tes levels are low do they prescribe dbol for hormone replacement therapy? No, they prescribe testosterone, so why take anything else?

How about this, 14 day cycle of tes prop and be done with it. Oh by the way, I have tried this with all the blood work.


----------



## 3752

totally agree with Winger to believe that this method does never shut you down or severly suppress the HPTA without having any blood work done is stupid and those preaching that it does not negatively effect the HPTA prove it simple as that really do the cycle and get bloods done before middle and after......

Any steroid taken at a dose that will result in muscle gains will eventually shut you down this is fact, if your dose is not enough to produce muscle gains....whats the point??


----------



## Cookie

Well well well, whilst the cat is a way, all the self proclaimed experts come out to play!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Tut tut tut



cwoody123 said:


> Finally! people starting to talk sense on this post


Meaning????????

Or is that one of your usual veiled attacks?????

Or are you NOW a self appointed expert, with no medical background qualifications or even enough steroid using experiance to be dishing out information on public forums with no liability insurance, no training qualifications.. NOTHING...

*Hence the reason why I avoid these types of discussions, given the lay the blame culture we now recide in*

And before you ask I`m a qualified trainer, had numerous years of steroid use *(good & bad)* with some bodybuilding competitions under my belt and have trained others to do competitions.

So experiance & qualification wise I think I trump you in those departments.

Your *sarky vieled comments* are very tiring and the reason why numerous people have left this forum, been prompted to stand up to your *sarkyness* and resulted in being banned for having the gaul to do to you as you do to others, *but you do it in a veiled manner, then cry foul when you are *attacked**



Captain Hero said:


> its a good post, it worked for Samurai and has worked for others too.
> 
> There is no need to trash a post just because it didnt work for you.


Thanks buddy and spot on, there are also other issues as to why he KEEPS pulling down what Sam69 did..



cwoody123 said:


> No mate it didn't work for me as i was probably the only one apart from Hacks mate to get there blood work done...guess what?...he was shut down hard too!
> 
> We really need to see some evidence that it does not shut you down...as stated before you can maintain sexual function even on relatively low T so you would not necessarily see that your shut down.
> 
> All i want to see is blood work and if it turns out that it does not shut people down then i will hold my hands up!
> 
> But i think it is a little irresponsible let people follow this protocol without knowing its effects...the evidence is already leaning towards the fact that it does not work.


Load of bollox,

Lets point out the truth which can easily be verified in your other posts on other threads, if they haven`t been deleted or tampered with.

You screwed up the cycle in the first place, by not having enough time off your previous cycle(s) (Tbol I think) and then proceeded to be a numpty, play the EXPERT and increase the dosage to way beyond what it needed to be.

YOU SCREWED UP NOT THE CYCLE.

As for the other individual, there was no blood work done before the cycle was used so that is again *bending the truth*

To quote your own *irresponsible to let people follow this* it is irresponsible for any unqualified person to be giving ANY form of information out on any public forum.

The only fact it didn`t work for you were you screwed it up and no doubt can`t even training properly given your posted training records go to show in past threads.



darkiwi123 said:


> i recently done two 14/14 cycles at 10mg ED , i got water and a lil shut down nothing major though. plus my missis is f*cking hot so i had no truble geting it going
> 
> i think the 14/14 ect cycles are great to start on for a first timer i think most people starting off with d-bol ect should start on a small cycle get a feel for what it does to them. just my thoughts though


Thank you, and you have highlighted EXACTLY why this protocol works so well and why it is mainly *suggested* to first timers as a *safer* alternative to the irresponsible suggestions of taking in hundreds of miligrams per week which is now the *normal* suggested dosages for 1st timers..

£ucking madness..... to suggest such un needed dosages...

We also moved on from the 14x14 quite sometime ago (about 12 months ago to be exact) to 14x21 or 16x21 to allow better recovery on a number of levels.

*But I will have to add I don`t encourage the use of drugs these days, as answers can quiet easily be found else where.*



Jimmy123 said:


> i wont comment on shutdown but i have a mate who has only ever followed this cycle
> 
> he loves it....gives him just enough to get where he wants to
> 
> horses for courses


First off appologies old buddy for my usual lack of keeping in touch & feel fre to pop over anytime as you know where I now recide.

If memory serves me correct you mate has been using that course for near on 2 years now and I have yet to see you post up any problems he has had.

Which some would have shown by now as any small problem would have got progressively worse as time went on and manifested itself into a big problem.



fits123 said:


> I think the point of this journal was to see what would happen, an experment, sam took the educated risk to test this theory and if you read it, it shows he he made about a stone of lean gains with no ill effects. Now you have a point about blood works etc and it would be good to see ,BUT, you cannot go about rubbishing this method just because it didnt work for you. From what i have readyou have had many problems!
> 
> People that train for a few months then start injecting 500mg test with Dbol etc thats dangerous and stupid. all the studies I have read suggest that gains and sides are dose dependent. I know a fair few old boys that took gear for YEARS and all have had problems in later life (mid 50's to mid 60's) and all have thier own reason to believe it was due to AAS use....to some degree, so trying to find a low dose alternative to todays super cycles seems sensible doesn't it???
> 
> woody, i think you and sam have had personal disagreements so maybe your views are not altogether unblinkered, so maybe you should not be on here slagging this method off???


Spot on matey:thumbup1:

If the protocol was so bad then myself, sam69 & biker (plus others) would not have spent the amount of time we did discussing all these problems in other threads all that time ago. We have been through all this stuff before and it gets very tiring having o do it again and again and again because people don`t LOOK or read properly.

Sam69 must have done close to 30+ cycles of this format and as of yet we have not seen any negative side effects even after 18-24 months of him being clean.

If there were any small problems homeostasis would have highlighted those by making them BIGGER problems as time went on. He is fit & well & training hard.



cwoody123123 said:


> Mate i am not here slagging the method off...i would love to find it works! But in reality i have my doubts. the reason these old boys had problems is that they didn't run PCT as it was not even heard of.
> 
> The longer your body is in a hypo gonadal state the more chance there is of permanent damage!...So lets say hypothetically that this low dose Dbol cycle does shut you down to lets say 9 nmol ...you would most likely have sexual function and your balls will look ok but your old test level used to be 22nmol. Your body then determines that this is its new set point so you are left partially hypogondal!
> 
> This is why blood work is vital and will once and for all put this to rest!
> 
> As far as i am concerned i have no gripes towards Samurai...i think he was a little out of order at times and should not have slagged off a senior moderator in such a way. I belive that Cookie & Samurai both had plenty to offer they just would not allow people to question there methods.
> 
> At the end of the day Samurai made gains there is no doubting that, but ultimately that was because he was taking AAS (regardless of the dose!) the long term damage could already be done...without blood work we can't know for sure!


Now make your mind up...

Either play the good cop or the bad cop...

As per usual you switch your attitude per person or per post, depending on how much of a veiled attack you think you can get away with..

You have plenty of gripes toward sam69 and that is plain for all to see in deleted torecent events...OOHHH no its not posts were manipulated and deleted to leave a very onesided arguement & view point..

As for myself if I never allowed anyone to question me I wouldn`t still be learning like I continue to do.

You made your own bed you just couldn`t lie in it.

As previously pointed out if there were any underlining conditions they would have grown to such an extent over the 12 months that he did this cycle.

As it is nothing has even come to light in any format, small or large.

And his gains were not purely down to gear use (15, 10, 5mgs cycles) but also down to the fact he knows how to train properly and everything else was a little boost.

So if you have no problem with sam69 then take him up on his very generous offer of training & living with him for 2 weeks in Portugal and seeing what can be achieved without the need for chemical aids.

In fact I`ll even extend the offer to training with me, & I`ll show you what can be done.

Just ask TH&S who has been up a couple of times, I don`t bite.....

If your going to accuse people of being closed minded and not allowing to be questioned then meet them and see what they do and question them civily in person(s)....

Choice is yours.

I`ll put my money were my mouth is...

Are you prepared to????????????????????

Other wise take some of your own advice that you post on your own journal(s)

*IF YOU DON`T HAVE ANYTHING POSITIVE TO SAY THEN DON`T SAY IT THIS IS SAM69`S THREAD NOT YOURS.*



winger123 said:


> How about this, 14 day cycle of tes prop and be done with it. Oh by the way, I have tried this with all the blood work.


Already been done last year and a few years back..

I just don`t publicise everything I do...

newbies don`t want to stick needles i themselves given as needles conjure up the notion of *junkie* tablets are much easier for them to cross that line to drug use.



Pscarb123 said:


> totally agree with Winger to believe that this method does never shut you down or severly suppress the HPTA without having any blood work done is stupid and those preaching that it does not negatively effect the HPTA prove it simple as that really do the cycle and get bloods done before middle and after......
> 
> Any steroid taken at a dose that will result in muscle gains will eventually shut you down this is fact, if your dose is not enough to produce muscle gains....whats the point??


Please show me anywhere were it has been posted that this protocol will not result in any form of shutdown????????

It has never been posted ever....

As for doseage and muscle gains,

Well I`ve Sam69 gained on 5mgs per day and I`ve had people gain on 4mgs per day, so who decides what is the right dose for muscle gain especially in a fuirst timer..

The guys suggesting 250-500mgs sust a week for 8 weeks?

or

Somebody suggesting 5mgs per day for 14 days?

I know which I would choose as the safer more cautious route.....

Ok gentlemen it has been an intereesting return form retirement/exile & I`ll leave you with these few parting word..

If you can`t grow or make improvements then I`ll bet a pount to a penny its your training, diet, recovery work, lifestyle or all of the above..

Easily fixable withoiut chemical assistance..

Just look backwards in history to see guys who could lift monstrous weights relative of their lightish bodyweights (sandow, hackensmidtz) yet had ripped muscular physiques, didn`t use drugs, supplements, lifting aids (belts suits) had the gym equipment or science of today to help them out like we all do today.

They out lift and look better than a whole host of us and we are suppose to be more advanced..

Food for thought.......

Feel free to pop over and ask any questions you have, you all know where I am these days..

Adios.............


----------



## 3752

ONE SMART COOKIE said:


> *IF YOU DON`T HAVE ANYTHING POSITIVE TO SAY THEN DON`T SAY IT THIS IS SAM69`S THREAD NOT YOURS.*
> 
> .........


no mate this is a forum for debate so everyone has the right to comment on any thread....

I never said it was being stated that no one said it did not cause shutdown i merly commented on the fact it did, just in case any newbie read the thread and thought it did not...calm down please mate i know sam is your buddy and you back this type of cycle but every one is entitled to comment....


----------



## Lost Soul

ONE SMART COOKIE said:


> Feel free to pop over and ask any questions you have, you all know where I am these days..
> 
> Adios.............


No my friend, do you have an address. I enjoyed reading your thoughts


----------



## fits

Pscarb said:


> *no mate this is a forum for debate so everyone has the right to comment on any thread....*
> 
> I never said it was being stated that no one said it did not cause shutdown i merly commented on the fact it did, just in case any newbie read the thread and thought it did not...calm down please mate i know sam is your buddy and you back this type of cycle* but every one is entitled to comment....[/*QUOTE]
> 
> I think Cookie was refering to woody who regularly, in HIS journal tells people to "not say anything if you don't have anything possitive to say" but then comes on to S69's Journal and starts being very negative about something sam put ALLOT of time and effort into for us all to learn from.
> 
> I agree it would be good if some one would get bloods done, but not all doctors will do it and it can be expensive to do privately.
> 
> until more people come forward and try i guess it will stay a minority way of doing things in this world where more is best! but who knows eh, maybe more people will try it, and maybe they will share their results, good OR bad! :beer:


----------



## cwoody123

Mate hackski used that term loosely! and you know it...he meant don't post ****e or attacks on my post but instead to post constructive critiscm like i have on this thread.

Look back at my posts...they all detail the need for blood test results...not..."O where do you live so i can beat your head in" type of messages!

Lets round this up by saying i do not advocate this type of cycle until i see more evidence that it is not optimal in the long term...people are free to choose what they want to do, if they want to follow this type of cycle then that's fine i just feel i have every right to question it, the debate is there for them all to see so they can make there OWN minds up based on the anecdotal & Physical evidence!

No i am not medically trained i just know a hell of a lot about the endocrine system from personal experience and learning. My doctor admitted to me that he knew **** all about it and my some of things my endo comes out with would make you wonder how the hell she managed to get the job...what i am saying is just because some one has medical training does not mean they instantly know what they are talking about!

Cookie i don't shroud anything...i am far to dumb to be that manipulative lol


----------



## Lost Soul

Woody - question with no malice  - How do you think peoples responses would change to your posts if you had a picture of a huge/cut/shreaded guy in your avatar?


----------



## cwoody123

Give me a year or 2 LOL!

Good point thou!...Most people Judge a book by it's cover. If i was to liken myself to a book i would have the cover of "Little red riding hood" but the content of "Bravo 2 zero"!

God i talk some [email protected]!

The point with my pictures is i am honest...i dont pretend to be some muscle bound freak of nature...i just am a normal bloke trying to get back to full health after a long illness...people can take that how they please...but only a real idiot will think "God he is big, he must know his ****!"


----------



## Lost Soul

cwoody123 said:


> Good point...Most people Judge a book by it's cover. If i was to liken myself to a book i would have the cover of "Little red riding hood" but the content of "Bravo 2 zero"!
> 
> God i talk some [email protected]!
> 
> The point with my pictures is i am honest...i dont pretend to be some muscle bound freak of nature...i just am a normal bloke trying to get back to full health after a long illness.


Unfortunately its doesnt do you any favours, rightly or wrongly its the first thing people look at.

prime example here

http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/general-conversation/33957-milk-pros-cons.html

I mean WTF? what is your plan? The guy has been given many plans before and not listened


----------



## cwoody123

To be honest if people decide to judge me by my Avater then they aren't worth the effort in the first place!...I have worked fooking hard and i am proud of that there little picture so go forth my wimsical friends and judge...i could not give a flying fook!

At least i am not 18st anymore with man breasts and a big old hanging gut and a brain tumour! and that is all that matters to me...everything else is a bonus

Now lets not talk any more about this and get the post back on topic


----------



## wogihao

Dammit going to have to read this from the begining..

:lol:


----------



## Guest

> If i was to liken myself to a book i would have the cover of "Little red riding hood"


bill and ben the flowerpot men



> but the content of "Bravo 2 zero"!


Little red riding hood"



> judge me by my Avater then they aren't worth the effort in the first place!...


Well this is a bodybuilding site and if you post pics they are going to be judged, you do seem to give alot of advice, and in my book the proof is in the pudding and in your case the pudding is still uncooked !!! and in the mixing bowl.

No offence meant but i would not take advice about steroids from a guy with a pic like yours.



> Dammit going to have to read this from the begining..


and its now on page 50 , have a good read.


----------



## cwoody123

romper stomper said:


> bill and ben the flowerpot men
> 
> Little red riding hood"
> 
> Well this is a bodybuilding site and if you post pics they are going to be judged, you do seem to give alot of advice, and in my book the proof is in the pudding and in your case the pudding is still uncooked !!! and in the mixing bowl.
> 
> No offence meant but i would not take advice about steroids from a guy with a pic like yours.
> 
> and its now on page 50 , have a good read.


Well in my case mate...the proof is not in the pudding because i have not had a cooker for the last 10 years to make the ****ing thing...2 years with an oven and i am rising!

If you don't like the simple fact that i know what i am talking about then that's your own issue...I don't pretend to know everything like some so called experts on this but i try and test things with regular blood test results which i feel is more appealing to a newbie than the " Look at the size of my guns' Character.

As i said people who judge a book by its cover make presumptions...and as Andy McNab once said "Presumptions are the mother of all **** ups"


----------



## Guest

you ar really into McNab, he gats a good slating from his ex army buddies, but thats another topic.

I fully agree with blood tests, but if you know what you are talkintg about why are the results of your endevours not that evident ?? thats my own personal opinion ??


----------



## winger

romper stomper said:


> No offence meant but i would not take advice about steroids from a guy with a pic like yours.


Romper stomper, I totally agree with you 100%, had I not known cwoody123's background. He had a prolactin secreting tumor for over 10 years.

Do I agree with the short, low dose cycles, yes. Can a low dose cycle shut you down? It depends on the person. I know two guys personally that have done 14 days on, 14 days off and both of them got shut down and are on testosterone gel, prescribed by a doctor.

Can this protocol work? Yes it could, but it needs tweaking after the first 14 day cycle.

ChefX did this style with blood work and Cookie actually touched on it.

If memory serves (and it doesn't  ) 14 days on 14 days off, 14 days on 21 days off.

Once again I don't do gear, but that is just me and in no way do I fault anyone for doing it!


----------



## Guest

> He had a prolactin secreting tumor for over 10 years.


I suppose i am going to get the Mcnab quoate again

Presumptions are the mother of all **** ups"

well so was the brave two zero mission .


----------



## Captain Hero

winger said:


> Romper stomper, I totally agree with you 100%, had I not known cwoody123's background. He had a prolactin secreting tumor for over 10 years.
> 
> Do I agree with the short, low dose cycles, yes. Can a low dose cycle shut you down? It depends on the person. I know two guys personally that have done 14 days on, 14 days off and both of them got shut down and are on testosterone gel, prescribed by a doctor.
> 
> Can this protocol work? Yes it could, but it needs tweaking after the first 14 day cycle.
> 
> ChefX did this style with blood work and Cookie actually touched on it.
> 
> If memory serves (and it doesn't  ) 14 days on 14 days off, 14 days on 21 days off.
> 
> Once again I don't do gear, but that is just me and in no way do I fault anyone for doing it!


the chef X short cycle is a little different winger :tongue:

25 days on 17 off and then 25 days on 24 days off

I know Chef will have had the bloods done and has infact done the cycles himself.


----------



## cwoody123

lol lads...as i said lets not keep talking about my progress...but hey thanks for giving me more ammo to push me to succeed in my pursuit of personal perfection!

I will leave you with another quote "Why are dads willies brown?" (Russel Brand 2007)

Hare Krishna!


----------



## 3752

fits said:


> I think Cookie was refering to woody who regularly, in HIS journal tells people to "not say anything if you don't have anything possitive to say" but then comes on to S69's Journal and starts being very negative about something sam put ALLOT of time and effort into for us all to learn from.


this i did not know so Cookie i do apologise as i did not know cwoody had done this on his thread....



fits said:


> I agree it would be good if some one would get bloods done, but not all doctors will do it and it can be expensive to do privately.


i am lucky that my Dr does my bloods but if she did not i would pay to get them done, why wouldn,t you after all you have paid for the steroids you are pumping into your body why not pay for the bloods?? to me that is reckless.


----------



## fits

Ok ,so, any one else trying this 14x14 cycle? or a variation?

I read about 'pulsing' before, Any one tried that ? I hard Sam MIGHT try another part to this on going experiment, maybe with Tbol, but obviously he is banned from here so im not sure where he will document it..............


----------



## 3752

any one mate, i dont see how guys can complain about the cost of getting bloods done to keep a track of their health but have no issue buying steroids....


----------



## Cookie

Pscarb said:


> this i did not know so Cookie i do apologise as i did not know cwoody had done this on his thread....


No problems Paul.

As to answer one of your other posts.

Fits pointed out not everyone has access to a doctor that will watch over them. So everything has to be done in such a way to *minimise* shutdown, suppression will happen to a degree but not complete shutdown as with *normal* suggested cycles.

As of yet I am unable to find any form of eveidence which pinpoints *exactly* at what dosage or time frame that the body will start to suppress hormonal releases when taking in steroids any form of steroid or steroid cycle.

People ridicule the low dose 14x14, 14x21, 16x21 but then go ahead and front load with loads of dbol and other drugs.. To me thats just double standards..

So it gets a little tiring when continually confronted with *blood tests blood tests* as nobody else who gives out cycle advice on this or any other forum is expected to. No matter what the dosage as it is just seen as falling into the *normal* way of doing things.

I`ve done this cycle in the past (late 1995, early 1996) and I have had 2 kids since then. I know the cycle(s) work. I`m still alive, I have kids, all my recent test results show that I now have the liver & kidney functions of a 16 year old (contrary to what some poeple post above my liver functions) and eveyrhting else is hunky dorey.

Sam69 has done this cycle and so have countless others in a number of formats.

So yeah I/we get defencive when the same old same old crap keeps reappearing by a select few with what now comes across as bitterness & sour grapes with ulterior motives.

Boring...

You try to help and give different viewpoints to only be shotdown for being willing to rock the conventional thinking boat..



cwoody123 said:


> Mate hackski used that term loosely! and you know it...he meant don't post ****e or attacks on my post but instead to post constructive critiscm like i have on this thread.
> 
> *Yes you have and not just to me but also to others in your journal(s)*
> 
> Look back at my posts...they all detail the need for blood test results...not..."O where do you live so i can beat your head in" type of messages!
> 
> *Where do we say we are going to beat you up?*
> 
> *Those are VERY GENUINE OFFERS of 1 on 1 FREE help, all I ask is that I been allowed to video the training for my site & youtube.*
> 
> *Choice is yours, but you`ll soon see we are a lot different to what we are percieved to be.*
> 
> Lets round this up by saying i do not advocate this type of cycle until i see more evidence that it is not optimal in the long term...people are free to choose what they want to do, if they want to follow this type of cycle then that's fine i just feel i have every right to question it, the debate is there for them all to see so they can make there OWN minds up based on the anecdotal & Physical evidence!
> 
> *And I have every right to say what I feel regarding your way of doing things!!!!!!!!!!!!*
> 
> *But when I do in whatever style good or bad I am beaten down and portrayed as *picking* on you..*
> 
> *Pot calling the kettle black there woody..*
> 
> No i am not medically trained i just know a hell of a lot about the endocrine system from personal experience and learning. My doctor admitted to me that he knew **** all about it and my some of things my endo comes out with would make you wonder how the hell she managed to get the job...what i am saying is just because some one has medical training does not mean they instantly know what they are talking about!
> 
> *If you have the right doctor you may find that they do know what they are talking about. *
> 
> *I have a very good doctor on some levels bad on others.*
> 
> *Too many people on bbing forums seems to have a *thing* about qualifications, very narrow minded.*
> 
> Cookie i don't shroud anything...i am far to dumb to be that manipulative lol





romper stomper said:


> Well this is a bodybuilding site and if you post pics they are going to be judged, you do seem to give alot of advice, and in my book the proof is in the pudding and in your case the pudding is still uncooked !!! and in the mixing bowl.
> 
> No offence meant but i would not take advice about steroids from a guy with a pic like yours.


Interesting.... And I can see where you are coming from..

Well I`m nothing like I *used* to look like, yet people still take advice of me, have my own forum, over 200 subscribers to my youtube stuff and heading towards half a million veiwings.

I must be doing something wrong....lol:beer:



cwoody123 said:


> Well in my case mate...the proof is not in the pudding because i have not had a cooker for the last 10 years to make the ****ing thing...2 years with an oven and i am rising!
> 
> If you don't like the simple fact that i know what i am talking about then that's your own issue...I don't pretend to know everything like some so called experts on this but i try and test things with regular blood test results which i feel is more appealing to a newbie than the " Look at the size of my guns' Character.
> 
> As i said people who judge a book by its cover make presumptions...and as Andy McNab once said "Presumptions are the mother of all **** ups"


Now your getting defensive, and you pull others down for that... Tut Tut..



winger said:


> Do I agree with the short, low dose cycles, yes. Can a low dose cycle shut you down? It depends on the person. I know two guys personally that have done 14 days on, 14 days off and both of them got shut down and are on testosterone gel, prescribed by a doctor.
> 
> Can this protocol work? Yes it could, but it needs tweaking after the first 14 day cycle.
> 
> ChefX did this style with blood work and Cookie actually touched on it.
> 
> If memory serves (and it doesn't  ) 14 days on 14 days off, 14 days on 21 days off.
> 
> Once again I don't do gear, but that is just me and in no way do I fault anyone for doing it!


So now we`ve switched from it causing shutdown to *depends from person to person*

And I bet those individuals have problems before they undertook steroid use?

Did they stick to the suggested dose of 5mgs per day?

Which is what we suggested to people starting out on this protocol..

I love the way people (anyone) fires into this protocol over taking 35mgs per week yet think noting of telling people to take that and more daily for a first cycle..

HYPOCRITES.................

I`m going to have to stop replying to all this as it is getting boring going round and round in circles..

Unless of course I see more input from other sources or requests to continue with my ramblings:cool2:

The basic thing is guys,

Too many use drugs as a crutch, they poison their systems with too many supplements, too high an intake of protein and protein shakes, train with poor programs, train too often usually in an overly stimulated way. Are more often than not dehydrated, lacking in vital vitamins & minerals, yet massively over dosing on some forms of vits/mins. Have poor recovery habits, drink too much alcohol, take too many non steroidal drugs. Have never seen an active recovery program, wouldn`t touch a stretching program of any form, the list goes on & on.

Yet said same individuals, moan that they aint growing, knock me for *unconventional thinking, belittle a program as outlined in this MASSIVE thread.

And are quite willing to spends thousands each year on supplemnts,drugs, pumping Steroids, GH, IGF-1, Insulin DNP, epherdrine, T3, T4 and numerous other compounds that are around these days into their bodies all in a single cycle which people on here do and have done.With no scientific back up as to how these compounds are going to interact long term.

??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Outspoken:ban:

Choice is yours....................................................................

And make sure to inform me why!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## fits

LOL

No ban!!!!!

Well, That was a good post OSC And although I don't think all the arguing is good for such an informative thread, the debating is good and that last post Cookie, was a very good one. :thumbup1: :thumb: To reinstate WHY this thread began, the whole purpose of the experiment that the now BANNED Sam69 very kindly recorded for us in his detailed journal.

It's a shame Biker is not about these days, but He had enough of the same old same old too.......So did Chef x. These people were very knowledgeable and willing to look at things like this as an alternative. I know Biker was very much into the 'usual' AAS cycles, he was THE man to talk to on this forum many moons ago, as well as two others I used to use. but He was willing to discuss and advise and help experiment with different protocols like this.

And I don't want to get in on the name calling or arguing, but these people woody are people that KNOW what they are talking about after years of using AAS. You have made some good changes to yourself woody but You may still run into some BIG problems health wise....I hope you don't.

14x14 and the like should be looked into more, as a safer way to help people reach their goals, goals that are be based on SOLID training, SOLID diet and SOLID rest, and just 'tweaked' with small dossed AAS if desired or needed. I think it is a totally different pursuit to professional Bodybuilding and should be treated with respect. I know many people on here like to use high doses of drugs, some need to as they get up on stage, no one will win the universe on a 5mg 14x14 cycle lol and that's all good for them IMO, but, totally different to what this journal is about. as some one already said, Horses for courses.

Sh*t I'm waffling now and not had my starbucks bucket of coffee yet! LoL

any way, Cookie, don't stop your rambling, the last one was good, a reminder as to what this journal is about, infact, personally I'd like to see this brought back to life with a new 6th of june................... that time is Nearly here again........PART 2?????????? :lol: :beer:


----------



## 3752

ONE SMART COOKIE said:


> So it gets a little tiring when continually confronted with *blood tests blood tests* as nobody else who gives out cycle advice on this or any other forum is expected to. No matter what the dosage as it is just seen as falling into the *normal* way of doing things.


yes i agree mate, as you know i have in the past used stupid amounts and never got tested that was a mistake on my part and now i check my health in many ways before and after every cycle what i fail to understand though is if you are going to use steroids then save the money and get the tests done as well.....



ONE SMART COOKIE said:


> And are quite willing to spends thousands each year on supplemnts,drugs, pumping Steroids, GH, IGF-1, Insulin DNP, epherdrine, T3, T4 and numerous other compounds that are around these days into their bodies all in a single cycle which people on here do and have done.With no scientific back up as to how these compounds are going to interact long term.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Could not agree more mate far to many newbies/novice gear users start these drugs far to early...



ONE SMART COOKIE said:


> Outspoken:ban:
> 
> Choice is yours....................................................................
> 
> And make sure to inform me why!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


having an opinion will not get you banned mate


----------



## wogihao

One thing cookie, if your so convinced that everyones going the wrong way with standard cycles at high dosages didnt you yourself use this aproach when you competed i seem to rember a post where you outlined your use of what 15 tabs of halo a day along with a bunch of other substances - how does this fit with your support of low dosages cycles?

I dont see how cycleing low dosages of dbol is any diffrent to how the york lifters used dbol in the 50s-early 60s? isnt this just a big step backwards?

I would think the danger is, this is the ultimate newbie cycle - no injections to worry about, a low dose with a easly avalible steriod. Not on this site but on some others this type of aproach is treated by the users in the same way as standard suplements. I think thats where people get uneasy. what would be the reaction if the drug of choice was not dbol but say anadrol/halo?? I think the reaction to the cycle would be very diffrent.


----------



## hackskii

I see it as if you are going to do a cycle then do one.

The 14 x 14 method does in fact shut you down and I know two people with blood work to prove their levels were that of a girl.

Oh, and what about compromised lipid profiles?

Yah, that too is verified along with very low testosterone levels.

You can defend all you want cookie, using the mantra of non conventional thinking but the proof is in the blood tests. It does shut you down, as verified with blood work.

If you understand what is going on you might just pick up on this.

First within days the hypothalamus will stop sending GnRH to the pituitary.

The pituitary will stop sending LH to the Leydig cells, and within days the nuts won't produce testosterone.

So, you come OFF for your 2 weeks, and it takes about 2 weeks for the pituitary to start sending the hormone LH to the Leydig cells, but then you go back on, once back on the suppression becomes deeper and deeper.

You could literally be shutdown half the whole time you are on gear.

Estrogen is about 200 times more suppressive than testosterone and beings that d-bol is a heavily aromitizable steroid, the risk of suppression is large.

Within days shutdown starts to happen.

Using this for a prolonged period of time is not safer, and actually could become more problematic than just doing a 8 week cycle along with a PCT.


----------



## thestudbeast

hackskii said:


> I see it as if you are going to do a cycle then do one.
> 
> The 14 x 14 method does in fact shut you down and I know two people with blood work to prove their levels were that of a girl.
> 
> Oh, and what about compromised lipid profiles?
> 
> Yah, that too is verified along with very low testosterone levels.
> 
> You can defend all you want cookie, using the mantra of non conventional thinking but the proof is in the blood tests. It does shut you down, as verified with blood work.
> 
> If you understand what is going on you might just pick up on this.
> 
> First within days the hypothalamus will stop sending GnRH to the pituitary.
> 
> The pituitary will stop sending LH to the Leydig cells, and within days the nuts won't produce testosterone.
> 
> So, you come OFF for your 2 weeks, and it takes about 2 weeks for the pituitary to start sending the hormone LH to the Leydig cells, but then you go back on, once back on the suppression becomes deeper and deeper.
> 
> You could literally be shutdown half the whole time you are on gear.
> 
> Estrogen is about 200 times more suppressive than testosterone and beings that d-bol is a heavily aromitizable steroid, the risk of suppression is large.
> 
> Within days shutdown starts to happen.
> 
> Using this for a prolonged period of time is not safer, and actually could become more problematic than just doing a 8 week cycle along with a PCT.


Did they run 5mg?

What was their previous cycle if any?


----------



## hackskii

thestudbeast said:


> Did they run 5mg?
> 
> What was their previous cycle if any?


One never ran a cycle before, I do think it was 5mg but it could have been 10mg.

He did get stronger, but he drew blood 3 days after last tab.

I work with him so let me just e-mail him then I can copy and paste here.


----------



## thestudbeast

hackskii said:


> One never ran a cycle before, I do think it was 5mg but it could have been 10mg.
> 
> He did get stronger, but he drew blood 3 days after last tab.
> 
> I work with him so let me just e-mail him then I can copy and paste here.


Ye go on, if it is the case this cycle should definatly be done with blood tests only, presuming he was all A OK before hand. Infact pulsing epistane is a better idea any how for avoiding total shutdown, as you've seen a 6 week pulse does compromise total testosterone slightly but the body compensates with higher free test.


----------



## fits

hackskii said:


> I see it as if you are going to do a cycle then do one.
> 
> *The 14 x 14 method does in fact shut you down *and I know two people with blood work to prove their levels were that of a girl.
> 
> Oh, and what about compromised lipid profiles?
> 
> Yah, that too is verified along with very low testosterone levels.
> 
> You can defend all you want cookie, using the mantra of non conventional thinking but the proof is in the blood tests.It does shut you down, as verified with blood work.
> 
> If you understand what is going on you might just pick up on this.
> 
> First within days the hypothalamus will stop sending GnRH to the pituitary.
> 
> The pituitary will stop sending LH to the Leydig cells, and within days the nuts won't produce testosterone.So, you come OFF for your 2 weeks, and it takes about 2 weeks for the pituitary to start sending the hormone LH to the Leydig cells, but then you go back on, once back on the suppression becomes deeper and deeper.
> 
> You could literally be shutdown half the whole time you are on gear.
> 
> Estrogen is about 200 times more suppressive than testosterone and beings that d-bol is a heavily aromitizable steroid, the risk of suppression is large.
> 
> Within days shutdown starts to happen.
> 
> Using this for a prolonged period of time is not safer, and actually could become more problematic than just doing a 8 week cycle along with a PCT.


 So Sam69 was lying? just lucky? and Jimmy and his mate? other people that have done this type of cycle??? YOU HAVE A WHOLE THREAD WITH EVIDANCE THAT YOU CAN DO THIS WITH GOOD RESULTS AND NO BAD SIDE EFFECTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Sam69 was not trying to SELL anything, it was an EXPERIMENT and these are his findings.....................

So why do you continue to talk like you KNOW what WILL happen????? State things as FACT??? what you are saying is theory, not FACT!!! or, your telling us that sam69 MUST have had more problems that he said he did???

The point of this whole thing is to try to find a SAFER way to use AAS. PCT is advised to be at hand. SMALL doses to be used. Specific AAS used..... that cannot be as dangerous as shoving **** loads of Test + GH + Dbol etc... SURELY????

Keep harping on about these "two people" you know that had bloods hack, and how 14x14 WILL f*ck you over.......because OBVIOUSLY what you say is 100% fact and 100% TRUE...... you are the all knowing GURU of AAS use....


----------



## wogihao

I have a question though, no-one is saying that 14x14 dosent supress or shut you down it seems.

However how effective is it long term? why would someone use this aproach over the standard one when you can get far better results from say a shic/burst cruse aproach? if the objective is to get as much mass/strenght as possible then why would you consider a sub-optimal aproach to mass gain?

I meen who realy considers this a viable long term aproach from what i can see it would take years and years to get to a compition standard if you were lucky.

So what are we saying that long term use of a low amount of steriods is better than short term high dosage use?


----------



## 3752

Fits you seem o be getting irrate for no reason wha hackskii has said is correc just as i mentioned before no one knows if they are shutdown unless they get bloods compleed, no one is saying sam is lying bu i was under he impression he never got bloods completed now i might be wrong and if he did and they proved he was not shu down i apologise but if he did not ge them completed then how can you tell he was not shut down??


----------



## paulo

handbags ladies!!!, i quite like reading different ideas /opinions, as i didnt and wont compete ive dcided to stay on creatine and protein only as supplements along with hard training and plenty rest between sessions-ive recently made good gains strength wwise using this and am close to what i was doing 20yrs ago!,anyway i like o.s.c articles,re the minimum dose stuff thats like waht they did in the old days and they looked great.if was going to do nowadays i would get advice on pct first then do test only-with ancils recommended,but as my goals are different from others i try stick with present as seems to be working


----------



## Cookie

Pscarb said:


> yes i agree mate, as you know i have in the past used stupid amounts and never got tested that was a mistake on my part and now i check my health in many ways before and after every cycle what i fail to understand though is if you are going to use steroids then save the money and get the tests done as well.....
> 
> *Unfortunatly as said before not everyone has a sympathetic doctor. My doc would never have given me blood tests back when I did gear. When I had problems he was a real pain in the @rse, but after the ticking off of my life he soon changed and now I get tests as and when I need to make sure eveything is in check. *
> 
> *Also maybe some people can`t afford to go private for the results.*
> 
> Could not agree more mate far to many newbies/novice gear users start these drugs far to early...
> 
> *But a lot are encouraged on the forums to use bigger doses when they post up a cycle they want to do and all people say is *oh you need more than that, its your first cycle make the most of it, use 500mgs test a week etc etc etc.*
> 
> *That then breeds irresponsibility in my thinking, and leads to every increasing cycle dosages each and evey cycle thereafter.*
> 
> having an opinion will not get you banned mate
> 
> *It did Sam69, *
> 
> *Yes he was outspoken, but if I were to say what somebody said in a pm to me about what they were going to do to Sam69, then would they be banned?*
> 
> *Probably not...*





wogihao said:


> One thing cookie, if your so convinced that everyones going the wrong way with standard cycles at high dosages didnt you yourself use this aproach when you competed i seem to rember a post where you outlined your use of what 15 tabs of halo a day along with a bunch of other substances - how does this fit with your support of low dosages cycles?
> 
> *Yes you are correct, I did use bigger cycles than what I put forward in threads with Biker, Sam69 & others.*
> 
> *What your quoting in fact was my peak usage and from that point onwards all my cycles went backwards in dosages. After the cycle you mention I never took more than 600mgs per week ever again.*
> 
> *When I started experimenting with the very low dose stuff I dropped right down to the region of 100-200mgs per week and still grew. I did hit my heaviest bodyweight (196lbs) on only 200mgs per week.*
> 
> *So as you see my eyes were opened to the fact that you can get caught up in the trap of always thinking that lack of growth is a lack of drugs.*
> 
> I dont see how cycleing low dosages of dbol is any diffrent to how the york lifters used dbol in the 50s-early 60s? isnt this just a big step backwards?
> 
> *And the York lifters carried decent amounts of muscle and were strong.*
> 
> *People use old so called out dated training principles so why not safer drug protocols but tweak them slightly?*
> 
> I would think the danger is, this is the ultimate newbie cycle - no injections to worry about, a low dose with a easly avalible steriod. Not on this site but on some others this type of aproach is treated by the users in the same way as standard suplements. I think thats where people get uneasy. what would be the reaction if the drug of choice was not dbol but say anadrol/halo?? I think the reaction to the cycle would be very diffrent.
> 
> *I think people these days treat steroids and such like growth drugs as supplements as evident by the dosages and varieties used. We see guys using and being told to use the same dosages in cycle 3-4-5 that I used at the back end of my steroid usage, and a lot of these guys weren`t/aren`t as big as me and I was never a huge bodybuilder.*
> 
> *That is were the madness lies...imho...*





fits said:


> So Sam69 was lying? just lucky? and Jimmy and his mate? other people that have done this type of cycle??? YOU HAVE A WHOLE THREAD WITH EVIDANCE THAT YOU CAN DO THIS WITH GOOD RESULTS AND NO BAD SIDE EFFECTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Sam69 was not trying to SELL anything, it was an EXPERIMENT and these are his findings.....................
> 
> So why do you continue to talk like you KNOW what WILL happen????? State things as FACT??? what you are saying is theory, not FACT!!! or, your telling us that sam69 MUST have had more problems that he said he did???
> 
> The point of this whole thing is to try to find a SAFER way to use AAS. PCT is advised to be at hand. SMALL doses to be used. Specific AAS used..... that cannot be as dangerous as shoving **** loads of Test + GH + Dbol etc... SURELY????
> 
> Keep harping on about these "two people" you know that had bloods hack, and how 14x14 WILL f*ck you over.......because OBVIOUSLY what you say is 100% fact and 100% TRUE...... you are the all knowing GURU of AAS use....


*Too much caffiene buddy, back into your kennel,*

*Thanks for the input:thumb:*



wogihao said:


> I have a question though, no-one is saying that 14x14 dosent supress or shut you down it seems.
> 
> *People are saying it will shut you down*
> 
> However how effective is it long term? why would someone use this aproach over the standard one when you can get far better results from say a shic/burst cruse aproach? if the objective is to get as much mass/strenght as possible then why would you consider a sub-optimal aproach to mass gain?
> 
> *How long is a piece of string?*
> 
> *If you had an individual approach their training, diet, recovery, stretching and all the other things correctly FIRST you would see a new breed of bodybuilder on the stage..IMHO....*
> 
> *As I have posted before, the likes of Sandow, Hackensmitd would easily outlift and look more muscular & ripped than a lot of gear using guys these days, and they had substandard equipment (if you listen to some people) no supplements or so called scientific knowledge to even get half as strong as they did.*
> 
> *I am not saying they were perfect but it does show you to what level(s) people can get to if they are willing to work hard & consistant.*
> 
> *Don`t you agree?*
> 
> I meen who realy considers this a viable long term aproach from what i can see it would take years and years to get to a compition standard if you were lucky.
> 
> *Nothing in life is down to luck, it is down to hard graft and a lot of people seem to be being brought up in the * I want it now* mentality.*
> 
> So what are we saying that long term use of a low amount of steriods is better than short term high dosage use?


----------



## hackskii

fits said:


> So Sam69 was lying? just lucky? and Jimmy and his mate? other people that have done this type of cycle??? YOU HAVE A WHOLE THREAD WITH EVIDANCE THAT YOU CAN DO THIS WITH GOOD RESULTS AND NO BAD SIDE EFFECTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Sam69 was not trying to SELL anything, it was an EXPERIMENT and these are his findings.....................
> 
> So why do you continue to talk like you KNOW what WILL happen????? State things as FACT??? what you are saying is theory, not FACT!!! or, your telling us that sam69 MUST have had more problems that he said he did???
> 
> The point of this whole thing is to try to find a SAFER way to use AAS. PCT is advised to be at hand. SMALL doses to be used. Specific AAS used..... that cannot be as dangerous as shoving **** loads of Test + GH + Dbol etc... SURELY????
> 
> Keep harping on about these "two people" you know that had bloods hack, and how 14x14 WILL f*ck you over.......because OBVIOUSLY what you say is 100% fact and 100% TRUE...... you are the all knowing GURU of AAS use....


Calm down bro, I am not calling anyone a liar.

He never got his blood work done, so nobody can say they were not shut down without this little piece of information.

A safer approach to steoids is less doses, that is a given, nobody says they are completly safe anyway.

Someone mentioned that no PCT would be needed, this is not true.

Below is an e-mail from my buddy, pay close attention to the numbers of the testosterone, it is shocking quite frankly.

In February of 2008 I started a cycle of vit D for 1 week on / 1 week off&#8230;5-10 mg / day.

I stayed this course for approximately 2 mos leading up to a weighlifting competition.

During off weeks I noticed a reduced sex drive - drop in energy and strength.

At the end of the cycle - around 2 mos later I felt my overall sex drive was pretty much gone. I felt 'down', low strength and energy.

A friend suggested my test was probably shut down - and that I get a blood test.

I immediately went to the Doctor who scheduled lab work. The Test results were amazing - 30 on a normal scale of 280-800 ng/dL !!

Doc put me on a course of HRT 5mg androgel. After a month on this program - I'm feeling much better, sex life improved, slight weight reduction, body feeling harder, stronger, more endurance, etc.

God bless my friend who gave me the good advice!


----------



## 3752

ONE SMART COOKIE said:


> *Also maybe some people can`t afford to go private for the results*.


in my opinion mate if they can afford the drugs they can afford the tests...... i agree wih you that to many guys use to higher dose to soon and this can effec health but so can not doing your bloods....

if your going to use steroids.....be sensible and use low doses

if your going to use steroids.....be sensible and get bloods done

you cannot preach one and not the other mate...



ONE SMART COOKIE said:


> *It did Sam69, *
> 
> *
> *
> 
> *
> **Yes he was outspoken, but if I were to say what somebody said in a pm to me about what they were going to do to Sam69, then would they be banned?*
> 
> *Probably not...*


Cookie Sam openly flamed anoher member and a MOD that is why he was banned not for his opinion on his method....as for he pm mate if you are offended send me the pm and i will deal with it do not assume nothing will be done when you have not mentioned anything...


----------



## wogihao

I have a question though, no-one is saying that 14x14 dosent supress or shut you down it seems.

*People are saying it will shut you down*

*
*

*
**I cant realy comment on this - without suporting evidence I think its hard to say either way. I would think that it would be less supressive than say tren but I just dont know. Perhaps its a trigger/cascade responce thats not related to dosage but in the way the chemical binds to the receptor???? If that were the case it would explain why things like tren/deca seem more supressive than say test.*

*
*

*
But its all bro science untill theres hard evidence to suport either assertion.*

*
*

However how effective is it long term? why would someone use this aproach over the standard one when you can get far better results from say a shic/burst cruse aproach? if the objective is to get as much mass/strenght as possible then why would you consider a sub-optimal aproach to mass gain?

*How long is a piece of string?*

*If you had an individual approach their training, diet, recovery, stretching and all the other things correctly FIRST you would see a new breed of bodybuilder on the stage..IMHO....*

*In this point I agree with you. But now adays its more the genetic responce to the drugs thats the key factor not the others i think, ofcourse the things you listed are important (diet i would say was number 1) but if were honest many of us are nothing without these substances.*

*
*

*
* *As I have posted before, the likes of Sandow, Hackensmitd would easily outlift and look more muscular & ripped than a lot of gear using guys these days, and they had substandard equipment (if you listen to some people) no supplements or so called scientific knowledge to even get half as strong as they did.*

*
*

*
**Yes but they were unique, they understood the concept of progressive resistance when weight training realy was a secret. There represented a tiny percentage of the population - they were the Dorian Yates/Ronnie Colemans of there age. Also they spent years and years training with extreemly heavy weights focusing on exersises that are no longer in fashion. I have to contest that many of the oldtimers strenght feats are pure fantasy, many of there lifts are greatly over-exagerated. The possible exception to this was Louis Cur.*

*
*

*
Probably the last of this type was Paul Anderson but everyone knows that he faked alot of his lifts (especialy his back lift).*

*
*

*
* *I am not saying they were perfect but it does show you to what level(s) people can get to if they are willing to work hard & consistant.*

*Don`t you agree?*

*
*

*
The training of these individuals was inconsistant/unscientific and dangerious. Whilst nobody will deny that they were strong - stronger than many of todays strenght atheletes there is some question of the training programs that they used. For every sandow/Apollon there were countless others who were injured/failed. the programs had a very low sucess rate. One could say that it was these individuals freak nature that enabled them to succed despite there training not because of it.*

*
*

*
*

I meen who realy considers this a viable long term aproach from what i can see it would take years and years to get to a compition standard if you were lucky.

*Nothing in life is down to luck, it is down to hard graft and a lot of people seem to be being brought up in the * I want it now* mentality.*

*
*

*
**True but why climb the mountain when you can take the cable car? If the outcome is the same then whats the issue?*

*
*

So what are we saying that long term use of a low amount of steriods is better than short term high dosage use?


----------



## cwoody123

hackskii said:


> I see it as if you are going to do a cycle then do one.
> 
> The 14 x 14 method does in fact shut you down and I know two people with blood work to prove their levels were that of a girl.
> 
> Oh, and what about compromised lipid profiles?
> 
> Yah, that too is verified along with very low testosterone levels.
> 
> You can defend all you want cookie, using the mantra of non conventional thinking but the proof is in the blood tests. It does shut you down, as verified with blood work.
> 
> If you understand what is going on you might just pick up on this.
> 
> First within days the hypothalamus will stop sending GnRH to the pituitary.
> 
> The pituitary will stop sending LH to the Leydig cells, and within days the nuts won't produce testosterone.
> 
> So, you come OFF for your 2 weeks, and it takes about 2 weeks for the pituitary to start sending the hormone LH to the Leydig cells, but then you go back on, once back on the suppression becomes deeper and deeper.
> 
> You could literally be shutdown half the whole time you are on gear.
> 
> Estrogen is about 200 times more suppressive than testosterone and beings that d-bol is a heavily aromitizable steroid, the risk of suppression is large.
> 
> Within days shutdown starts to happen.
> 
> Using this for a prolonged period of time is not safer, and actually could become more problematic than just doing a 8 week cycle along with a PCT.


That is all right in my opinion...i don't know why more people don't have this common sense approach. the science is there.

As said Sam made good gains not from the fact that he was doing a 14x14 cyle but because her was sticking ANABOLIC STEROIDS in to his body and training hard and eating right!

i hear your concern about doses going up!...but what really causes the long term damage to your endocrine system??...It is clear that the longer you are shut down the more chance there is of irreversible damage to the endocrine system... as far as i know there is no evidence to support the fact that more androgens in your body damage the steroid receptors permanently...they just down regulate for the short term.

So what your system does is shut people down for a longer period of time which in my opinion is the catalyst for much more of a chance of permanent damage...Where as a short higher androgen cycle shuts you down for a considerably less amount of time...plus PCT is followed to get your endocrine system back up to full speed (That's a debate of it's own!)

Can you understand my logic?

Fits you should calm down...getting irate is not productive to any of us...discussing and working towards better solutions is the way forward for us all.

I mean if i can change...then you can change...we all can change! (Rocky4) lol


----------



## winger

Did Sam69 make gains? Yes

Did Sam69 have shutdown? Who knows cause no blood work was done.

In my opinion, the less drugs you put in your body the better. 

Now, IMO, I wouldn't use dbol, I would use testosterone, cause that is what the body produces, but that is just me.


----------



## Jimmy1

personally i feel that the higher the dose....the harder your endo suffers

look at t3/4

the higher the dose used.....the more your thyroid can mess up

look at rec drugs.....the more used...the higher chance of complications

one thing i agree is that long term use of any drugs will also cause endo problems

i do have one question though

if your so concerned about your endo system....and you claim to know so much....then why use steroids at all? especially considering you past history?


----------



## Jimmy1

that question sounds like im having a go...which im not

just typing with one finger as trying to keep my baby boy asleep

so no time to be articulate


----------



## cwoody123

Jimmy said:


> personally i feel that the higher the dose....the harder your endo suffers
> 
> look at t3/4
> 
> the higher the dose used.....the more your thyroid can mess up
> 
> look at rec drugs.....the more used...the higher chance of complications
> 
> one thing i agree is that long term use of any drugs will also cause endo problems
> 
> i do have one question though
> 
> if your so concerned about your endo system....and you claim to know so much....then why use steroids at all? especially considering you past history?


Does sound a bit like an attack...but you got kids and i know how stressful that can be! lol

But i would say that the thyroid is system is a little less forgiving. So where do you think the permanent damages occurs...at the hypthalomus?(TRH)...or at the the pituitary?(TSH)... or at the thyroid gland itself?

Again there is PCT that people should follow if they take Thyroxine meds...you will have to forgive me as my knowledge is very limited on this subject 

For me i have not had testosterone for 10 years and my body and mind was in a **** state...and i decided i would rather take the risk to enhance my body back up to full speed at the the potential cost to being on HRT all my life...i was very careful and have had blood tests done before and after on every cycle and so far my HTPA has bounced right back every time!!

And why did you decide to take the risk if you don't mind me asking...especially since you have kids and it is not just you you need to think about?


----------



## Jimmy1

i believe its the thyroid gland itself, which can cause an over or underactive thyroid

i started usinf steroids back in the 90's

i stopped using them back when my first child was born in 05

its your body

your having the bloods done which is good

but if your knowledge on the endo is as good as i suspect it is, you will know that using steroids will alter homeostasis...our endocrine systems are very complicated and all our glands, nerves, organs...brain functions...(the list is endless) are perectly balanced/linked

ie mess with something as simple as insulin response through bad diet...it will/can eventually cause insulin tollerance...leading to type 2 diabetes...this in turn can have a knock on efffect altering homeostasis and effecting other areas of our bodies

we can ruin one part of our endocrine system from something totally unrelated

imagine a car engine...remove the water in the radiator and it will run for a while until the rad overheats...then we can seize the engine and warp the head...knock on effect

the reason i say this is thois.....

i dont claim to know enough about your condition...but messing with your endo can have a knock on effect and cause problems elswhere...as said above...the body works in harmony...everything is happening in a fit human being for a reason

so why upset the balance?

doesnt this worry you???


----------



## bristol-trance

I tried this 14x14 for 3 cycles.. gained a few lbs and got a more harder look.. wouldnt say i ever shut down but then again had no tests to prove it..

Im now using enanthate and obviously loving it but like i said deep down i know its probably doing me more harm!


----------



## cwoody123

So why would the gland shutdown itself...Ok so they inject Thyroxin (T3,T4) this will then go to every cell in the body and tell them to crank that bitch up!...Some of this Thyroxin goes back up to the Hypothalamus which then say's "O right we have been secreting to much TRH&#8230;Bloody night shift again I bet!....we best output down until we get back some good readings back from the body department"&#8230;

So Mr. pituitary is ordered to produce less or no TSH&#8230;.The Thyroid gland department gets told the great news "Good news lads we have been far to efficient&#8230;The top bosses I have said we can all have a well deserved break!"

So off they go in which time the Hypothalamus department is monitoring the T3/T4 coming back&#8230;they notice that less and less is coming back&#8230;so they call people back up to start work again (PCT)

The longer this machinery and the staff are left away&#8230;the more chance there will be of A. The machinery not working properly and B. The staff will forget procedures and not be as efficient at there job as what they was before they left.

This will be Primary malfunction&#8230;where as there can be Secondary malfunction where the Hypothalmus department can't get the staff or has a **** Controller but this I suspect is not due to the Thyroid department being to good at there job&#8230;but other factors in the overall brain running.

I don't like the simple analogy of the body is alike a car as as you said there are a lot of other variables to take into consideration. There is one Automotive sytem found in modern cars which in my view exactly reflects the endocrine system&#8230;This is called the ECU (Electronic Control Unit) This is the system found in modern cars which control almost every aspect of combustion and other systems. It works on the basis of a "Negative feed back system" Just like the endocrine system.

One of the systems it has is the constant monitoring of the Lambar sensor which is located in the exhaust&#8230;If it detects that it is not burning fuel correctly it will send a signal back to the ECU (Hypothamus) which will then go ahead and adjust fuelling, timing etc&#8230; to rectify the problem.

If these feedback systems are not in place then it will effect the vehicles overall performance&#8230;

I'm am waffling now&#8230;so I will shut up lol

So do you use steroids anymore or have you been clean since 2005?

I choose to upset this balance like any boy racer who puts a air filter, turbo, spoiler on there car&#8230;More power and better performance and better sytyling and other people go "Wow look at that sweet looking car"

As I have said I have weighed out the risks&#8230;for "imbalance" try having no test for 10 years of the most important years of your life where you should be enjoying your body.

I have made what I feel is not a sensible decision but one based on calculated risk which I fully accept.

Good post thou mate&#8230;I hope mine makes some sense as I do tend to get lost in my own imagination when typing


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## Clydefrog

cwoody123 said:


> I choose to upset this balance like any boy racer who puts a air filter, turbo, spoiler on there car&#8230;More power and better performance and better sytyling and other people go "Wow look at that sweet looking car"


Great analogy. But take the turbo as an example: power output, efficiency and reliability are all derived from the engine you stick it on. Put a turbo on a 3.0 Toyota 2JZ-GE and you've got an accomplished sports behemoth. Stick a turbo on a 1.0 Nova and......meh.

...and the last thing I'd want to do is stick a blower on a car with dodgy history.


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## cwoody123

Why? because the Nova is more likely to break down or because it does not deserve the right to have a turbo? As long as the other variables like fuelling, Air intake and Ecu mapping are in place then i don't see any reason you can't increase it's performance.

Anyway a Nova would be a very old vehicle and would not be a good example i would liken myself to a Corsa lol


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## Lux

This thread needs a bit of deleting and tidying up. If this was somebody elses cycle journal, they would have asked for it to be cleared up by now :whistling:

But as samurai is banned he can't do that.

This was a record of samurais experiment and cycle, reference for himself and others wanting to try a different route to using AAS. Now there just seems to be far too much hijacking


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## Jimmy1

like i say woody

its your body

look after it buddy...i hope what your doing doesnt backfire


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## Captain Hero

Lux said:


> This thread needs a bit of deleting and tidying up. If this was somebody elses cycle journal, they would have asked for it to be cleared up by now :whistling:
> 
> But as samurai is banned he can't do that.
> 
> This was a record of samurais experiment and cycle, reference for himself and others wanting to try a different route to using AAS. Now there just seems to be far too much hijacking


I agree mate


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## Jimmy1

i dissagree

i think that all hijack posts are still all relevant to the thread, and anyone reading this trying to find out about the cycle...may want to read constructive posts regarding the dangers or safeties to make up their own minds


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## winger

Lux said:


> This thread needs a bit of deleting and tidying up. If this was somebody elses cycle journal, they would have asked for it to be cleared up by now :whistling:
> 
> But as samurai is banned he can't do that.
> 
> This was a record of samurais experiment and cycle, reference for himself and others wanting to try a different route to using AAS. Now there just seems to be far too much hijacking


But Sam69 can't post to it so it might die.

This way we keep posting and it stays at the top. 

Lux just complained about hijacking?......lol. I love you Lux!


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## Lux

winger said:


> But Sam69 can't post to it so it might die.
> 
> This way we keep posting and it stays at the top.
> 
> Lux just complained about hijacking?......lol. I love you Lux!


Mwah! Back at ya stud x

:tongue:


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## fits

cwoody123 said:


> Fits you should calm down...getting irate is not productive to any of us...discussing and working towards better solutions is the way forward for us all.
> 
> /QUOTE]
> 
> I dont need a shmuck like you telling me to calm down, I am always calm.
> 
> you are not discussing solutions, what you have done is come on to a mans journal, read it then been very negative about it, when you ask people not to do exactly that on your own journal!!
> 
> Once again I will tell you, you state things as FACT when they are not! your a dangerous person doing that, and I blieve your not trying to be constructive, just trying to dissmantal a mans year long work!!!
> 
> Pathetic.
> 
> I myself have tried a couple of short 14x14 cycles and I may again. And if i do I will document it - Good Or Bad.


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## cwoody123

Please do...i am not even going to comment on your new outburst...I will be happy to leave my posts as people have a right! to hear all sides of the argument.


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## Lux

cwoody123 said:


> Please do...i am not even going to comment on your new outburst...I will be happy to leave my posts as people have a right! to hear all sides of the argument.


So next time you do a journal, don't cry like a baby asking for posts to be deleted so your thread is just how you want it


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## fits

Lux said:


> So next time you do a journal, don't cry like a baby asking for posts to be deleted so your thread is just how you want it


 And so say all of us!!!!!! :thumbup1: :thumbup1: :thumb: :beer:


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## cwoody123

LOL as i said i do not mind constructive criticism...the post that were deleted were useless [email protected] or insults. By all means moderators can delete my posts that have nothing to do with the subject in hand...but is suspect they are very few and far between.

Fits mate you aint everyone...people can make up there own minds based on what they read..the clever one's will weigh out there options based on what has been presented to them...Only the dumb run into something blindly...which one are you i wonder!

I notice that i am the only one out of us 3 who has his body up in the avatar...your not arm chair warriors by any chance are you?...be interesting to see!

Cry like a baby...lol...It is not me acting like a juvenile delinquent!

In a few years time i will demonstrate what hard work and productive thinking can achieve...When i put my theory into practice...

God i must really grate on some people lol ...most likely the closed minded follower types me suspects!


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## Tall

cwoody123 said:


> ...
> 
> I notice that i am the only one out of us 3 who has his body up in the avatar...your not arm chair warriors by any chance are you?...be interesting to see!
> 
> ...


LOL. Thats so wrong I don't know where to start.


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## ayasbo

Whats up all? Great read took me a week! Good info Cookie and Sam.Thanks for all the info looking forward to reading more of your posts:thumb:


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## winger

ayasbo said:


> Whats up all? Great read took me a week! Good info Cookie and Sam.Thanks for all the info looking forward to reading more of your posts:thumb:


You read it but didn't notice that Sam was banned? :whistling:


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## fits

cwoody123 said:


> Fits mate you aint everyone...people can make up there own minds based on what they read..the clever one's will weigh out there options based on what has been presented to them...Only the dumb run into something blindly...which one are you i wonder!


 You state things as fact when they are NOT. simple. You have an opinion fine, thats good, infact thats great, but when you start typing things as fact when they are just your opinion, and on a thread purely to try to dismantle FACTUAL recording, just because you don't get on with the man whos journal it is.......as i said, you are pathetic. worthless little boy. :ban:

any way, I am very bored of you. This does not do this great thread justice, if you want to talk, argue or what ever with me, start a new thread


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## 3752

i agree in a way with Fits...stop the bickering on the thread


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## megatron

I find it sad that such a useful thread for an alternative method to the standard method of taking AAS has degenerated because of personal issues. Even more sad that Sam has been banned, he helped me a great deal when I was green, a valuable member gone...


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## fits

megatron said:


> I find it sad that such a useful thread for an alternative method to the standard method of taking AAS has degenerated because of personal issues. Even more sad that Sam has been banned, he helped me a great deal when I was green, a valuable member gone...


 Yeah, the thing is I would like this thread to continue, but its hard without Sam here to ask questions to. Is there any one else about that has had a GOOD few cycles of 14x14 under their belts?

Can we unban Sam just on this thread??? is he promisses not to call any one a C*nt???? lol :innocent:


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## 3752

fits said:


> Can we unban Sam just on this thread??? is he promisses not to call any one a C*nt???? lol :innocent:


Sam is banned for a period of time which will be decided by the MOD team insulting MOD's and other members is not tolerated...


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## Cookie

fits said:


> I dont need a shmuck like you telling me to calm down, I am always calm.
> 
> you are not discussing solutions, what you have done is come on to a mans journal, read it then been very negative about it, when you ask people not to do exactly that on your own journal!!
> 
> Once again I will tell you, you state things as FACT when they are not! your a dangerous person doing that, and I blieve your not trying to be constructive, just trying to dissmantal a mans year long work!!!
> 
> Pathetic.
> 
> I myself have tried a couple of short 14x14 cycles and I may again. And if i do I will document it - Good Or Bad.


*LOL, you been at the caffiene again buddy:thumbup1:*



Lux said:


> So next time you do a journal, don't cry like a baby asking for posts to be deleted so your thread is just how you want it


*LOL, your funny buddy*



cwoody123 said:


> LOL as i said i do not mind constructive criticism...the post that were deleted were useless [email protected] or insults. By all means moderators can delete my posts that have nothing to do with the subject in hand...but is suspect they are very few and far between.
> 
> Now we know that to be utter bull, don`t we?
> 
> *You have had your fair share of taking pots at people on the forums, especially when they started disagreeing with what you posted. And I am not just refairing to myself or Sam69 as the main culprits of disagreeing.*
> 
> Fits mate you aint everyone...people can make up there own minds based on what they read..the clever one's will weigh out there options based on what has been presented to them...Only the dumb run into something blindly...which one are you i wonder!
> 
> *Slightly veiled is that, some of us have had our hands slapped for less.*
> 
> I notice that i am the only one out of us 3 who has his body up in the avatar...your not arm chair warriors by any chance are you?...be interesting to see!
> 
> *I`ll answer this bit a bit further down..................Please read on..*
> 
> Cry like a baby...lol...It is not me acting like a juvenile delinquent!
> 
> *A little insulting would you not agee?*
> 
> In a few years time i will demonstrate what hard work and productive thinking can achieve...When i put my theory into practice...
> 
> *We hope you do, and I`m sure others will put forward their own practices.*
> 
> God i must really grate on some people lol ...most likely the closed minded follower types me suspects!
> 
> *Try looking at the way you respond to people who in their own way put up *opinions or critisism* good or bad and then you fly off the handle like some woman who`s hitting the menopause (yes I`ve witnessed this in women first hand) with hormones all over the place.*





megatron said:


> I find it sad that such a useful thread for an alternative method to the standard method of taking AAS has degenerated because of personal issues. Even more sad that Sam has been banned, he helped me a great deal when I was green, a valuable member gone...


*Gone but not forgotten, sly old grumpy bollox:lol:*



> I notice that i am the only one out of us 3 who has his body up in the avatar...your not arm chair warriors by any chance are you?...be interesting to see!


A very bold & brave statement,

Not taking anything away from you with regards to the weight you have lost. I would say I would have suggested a much different way of doing things, either au natural or running PCT only cycles to stimulate your bodies own hormonal production a wee bit more, (and yes I have done this myself in the past and it does work) then clear out for sometime. Rather than messing with your own system through the use of steroids and their *supressing/shutdown* side effects, which I think is not what your body needs given it hasn`t had any test for 10 years like you say, sort of going backwards in effect..

OK.....

So none of us have pictures in our avatars..

How about over 40 videos on youtube? having fun, putting my face up there to show I practise what I preach and all that type of lingo....

Or

Some old competition pictures?

13 years ago to be exact....

Bit dated and many have seen the same ones before so should be bored sh!tless by now of looking at my ugly mug:cursing:

And I am sure there are many on here much bigger and in far better condition than I ever achieved or could achieve.

Then again I did make many a screw up back then so I would say didn`t reach my true potential..IMHO...

But I didn`t REALLY know what I was doing back then compared to these days..

I appologise guys for putting these up again...

Not Mr Olympia standard I know.

[images removed]

Or maybe one from recently in a more contemplating mood?

(please note the training equipement in the background, a small sign of I practise what I preach)

[images removed]

As you can see I have nothing to hide, have never claimed myself to be anything that I am not and I sure as hell not a keyboard or an armchair warrior.

All we wanted was for you not to make the same mistakes we made and believe me I made some humdingers:innocent: and your approach is littered with mistakes that we can see having in a sense been there ourselves, felt the frustrations and the impatientness but in different ways to you.

So for you to come onto somebody elses thread given the lack of experiance you have in all this and go on like you do, sort of smacks of *knowitall* syndrome, when it fact it may just be *over enthusiasm*

Either way I think you need to step back a little, carefully read what this entire thread is all about, the little snippetts of wisdom in here, but most importantly see that we already made changes to the 14x14 by altering the amount of days on & days off yada yada yada to counter any problems we foresaw a long time back. So we get a little tired of page after page of continually having to back up what is already in here.

We did all the experiment(s) and made the adjustments as required, not our fault others cannot see or read things to its fullest extent.

And mine & Sam69`s offers still stand of showing you in person alternative ways to approach what you want to achieve..

Sorry guys been rambling again aint I?

I think I should get a new job as a novelist:lol:


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## fits

Been at the coffee again??? :bounce:

Cookie, to continue the theme here, have you or any one you know tried the 'pulsing' method?


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## 3752

good pics Cookie...


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## cwoody123

yea good pics!...but i was not referring to you mate...i was referring to Fits and Lux. Any ways i am going to take Pscarbs advice and bow out...as i really can't be bothered running round in circles with this to be honest.


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