# Calories in Vs Caloiries Out question



## NorthernSoul (Nov 7, 2011)

I was thinking last night while falling asleep.

I've always thought DIETING was a lot more complex than just CALS IN vs. CALS OUT, more to the point of precisely calculating your Protein, Carbs and Fat.

So yeah, when listening to people give advice how to bulk it is always "Eat more than you burn" or loosing fat, then its "Make sure you are burning more calories than you consume" - Sounds simple...

But the thought was, lets say someone was bulking on 4,000 calories, 700 calories above maintenance for example.

Imagine the guy wasn't eating any protein at all, all of those calories come from carbs and fat with whatever minor protein content was in those low protein types of foods..

Would that guy still gain muscle bulking even though he wasn't consuming any protein?


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## Guest (Apr 9, 2015)

Nope. He'd get fat.


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## smity220385 (Mar 15, 2012)

As most foods have some protein and eating large quantities your gonna no doubt get some growth over a long period but based on no scientific fact and Bro science you would gain something until your at your genetic limit but it would take a lot longer than having enough protein for what your body is requesting.


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## Big ape (May 5, 2011)

protein is your building blocks ... with out the building blocks u have no house


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## NorthernSoul (Nov 7, 2011)

Big ape said:


> protein is your building blocks ... with out the building blocks u have no house


Thats what I always thought as well.

But if thats the case, then calories in vs. calories out doesn't stand to be correct then.


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## NorthernSoul (Nov 7, 2011)

As far as im aware, calories in vs. calories out means...

100 calories is 100 calories no matter what form it is.

So if 4,000 calories is still 4,000 no matter what form of calorie it is, then you can bulk with minimum protein as long as you hit your targetted calorie number


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## j16088501 (Mar 11, 2015)

You would gain weight, not much muscle .calories in vs calories out argument would still stand, you're just looking It from a bb'ing perspective and wanting to gain muscle

Weight is a bit of a loose term if not clarified. .


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## Big ape (May 5, 2011)

Juic3Up said:


> Thats what I always thought as well.
> 
> But if thats the case, then calories in vs. calories out doesn't stand to be correct then.


yeah it is calories in v calories out if its just weight loss and don't care about body composition and muscle gain/loss ... if u wanna preserve muscle / gain muscle ur gonna need protein ...


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## NorthernSoul (Nov 7, 2011)

Ahhh I see

So Cals in V Cals out is only effective using the term "Weight loss or weight gain" opposed to saying the terms... fat loss or muscle mass gain - Hence j16088501's comment above


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## John. (Jun 24, 2013)

Yes.

Cals in > Cals out = Weight gain

Cals in < Cals out = Weight loss

Simples. If you're worried about body composition then that's where macros come into play.


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## Jalex (Nov 16, 2014)

Set macros, which will in turn give you calorie goal, hit that for progress ?(surplus for gain and deficit for loss)


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## NorthernSoul (Nov 7, 2011)

Lovely, exact answers I was looking for! thanks


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## Pitbull999 (Jun 3, 2012)

Juic3Up said:


> As far as im aware, calories in vs. calories out means...
> 
> 100 calories is 100 calories no matter what form it is.
> 
> So if 4,000 calories is still 4,000 no matter what form of calorie it is,* then you can bulk with minimum protein* as long as you hit your targetted calorie number


So why are we taking 250g+ of protein a day if minimum amaount is required?


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## TommyBananas (Nov 23, 2014)

Pitbull999 said:


> So why are we taking 250g+ of protein a day if minimum amaount is required?


We aren't, well, people with brains aren't (unless theyre very very heavy people)


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## teenphysique (Jul 1, 2014)

Juic3Up said:


> I was thinking last night while falling asleep.
> 
> I've always thought DIETING was a lot more complex than just CALS IN vs. CALS OUT, more to the point of precisely calculating your Protein, Carbs and Fat.
> 
> ...


We all go silly on protein and the study for the ammount we need is 0.75g per lean lb mass and lets be serious most people on 1g per lb of general body weight so he would probably get that in any way most of the time where fats are present protein is ... but i see what your saying

but i think it is in my opinion a little more compicated


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## NorthernSoul (Nov 7, 2011)

Pitbull999 said:


> So why are we taking 250g+ of protein a day if minimum amaount is required?


I wasn't stating a fact, I was trying to get my head around it myself and it's been sorted now.


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## Goranchero (Mar 26, 2015)

Calories in, calories out, but both values are highly speculative.

Calories in is not just what you eat, but what you digest and absorb and in what part of your digestion you absorb it. Calories out is not your theoretic TDEE where you calculate your BMR based on weight, body composition and age and multiply with daily activity coefficient. The human body and metabolism is very flexible and dependent on many more variables. You can only make wild guesses of your TDEE, maybe they are correct, maybe not, maybe one today, another tomorrow. Hormones, physiological states, genetic affinities towards use of certain macronutrients, intolerance of other macronutrients, and a bunch of other factors, many of which are yet to be discovered.

You might eat less than your BMR and still gain body fat, you might eat above your TDEE and still not gain body fat. Compared to weight loss, nuclear fission is childs play.


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## 2004mark (Oct 26, 2013)

While calories in v calories out isn't a stand alone rule, it's gotta be the first rule of any diet plan. If calories are wrong then it doesn't really matter what other hocus pocus you follow... you'll have poor results.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

AlQaholic said:


> There are studies that show upto 3.1 grams per kg of LBM to still show extra benefit.
> 
> 1g per lbs is a load of bollox waded around by lazy coaches.


Could you provide a link to that study please? While recommendations based on LBM make logical sense, the complications of accurately measuring this limit its true usefulness.

The 1g/lb figure is actually in line with the upper levels of the studies I've seen, and is therefore not a junk figure IMHO.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

One significant limitation of study data for many here is that they relate to natural trainees.


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## nWo (Mar 25, 2014)

Pitbull999 said:


> So why are we taking 250g+ of protein a day if minimum amaount is required?


If you're natural, you shouldn't be, no need. If you're on gear and following a 1.5x BW in lbs formula to calculate your protein intake whilst bulking then you'll end up consuming that much, though certain drugs are needed to even make it worth your while.


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## TommyBananas (Nov 23, 2014)

Ultrasonic said:


> Could you provide a link to that study please? While recommendations based on LBM make logical sense, the complications of accurately measuring this limit its true usefulness.
> 
> The 1g/lb figure is actually in line with the upper levels of the studies I've seen, and is therefore not a junk figure IMHO.


In a surplus, even lower than 1g is fine as shown in studies.

People think they need so much protein in a surplus and it blows my mind.


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## nWo (Mar 25, 2014)

Ultrasonic said:


> Could you provide a link to that study please? While recommendations based on LBM make logical sense, the complications of accurately measuring this limit its true usefulness.
> 
> The 1g/lb figure is actually in line with the upper levels of the studies I've seen, and is therefore not a junk figure IMHO.


Study here to suggest that the more of your calories that are made up by protein, the less fat you'll gain compared to a diet in which those calories were made up with less protein and more carbs and fats, and for a change the study was done on those that were experienced lifters. I still don't think it's conclusive and I never take a study as gospel, but it's interesting nevertheless.

The effects of consuming a high protein diet (4.4 g/kg/d) on body composition in resistance-trained individuals. - PubMed - NCBI


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

TommyBananas said:


> In a surplus, even lower than 1g is fine as shown in studies.
> 
> People think they need so much protein in a surplus and it blows my mind.


As I said, 1I/lb is at the upper end of the values produced by various studies, not surprisingly they don't all agree.


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## jayDP (Jan 31, 2012)

I don't think it is "as simple as that"

What if someone is on tons of drugs, hgh, dnp, t3, t5, tren, I think this changes things

Am dieting on around 3k kcals (started on 4k) I lose 2lb a week but on a Sunday I binge for 2hours on easy 5-7k of kcals so in theory on Monday I should be back were I started?? Nope still leaner then ever an still have my 2lb weightloss for that week


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

I dont agree with much of the protein guys take.

I am 226 pounds, so lets day 226 grams of protein a day, that would be 6.5 chicken breasts a day, or 62 eggs a day.

As you can see, that is a ton of food.

No way a guy needs that much protein, just looking at the volume would suggest otherwise.


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## Big ape (May 5, 2011)

some people are just stupid and take things to extreme ... protein builds muscle "lets eat 400g a day then" ... leucine is the main amino for protein synthesis " lets take 60g a day" .... just throwing money


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## BennyC (Mar 18, 2010)

Pitbull999 said:


> So why are we taking 250g+ of protein a day if minimum amaount is required?


Several reasons, mostly because the fitness industry has perpetuated the 'cash cow' of protein protein protein. And now with all these 'novelty' suddenly healthy and okay to eat 'protein products' (brownies, popcorn, wafers etc) protein is being over consumed to an even greater extent. If people tracked their intake I'm sure they would be horrified at just how high it is.

I've seen people on this forum negate protein consumed from food sources that aren't lean meat/fish/eggs etc considering, for example, 100g of oats contains 11g of protein, with many here consuming oats every day that's almost another 80g of protein a week being consumed but not accounted for. Brocolli has 5g of protein per 200g, etc etc. Yes the amino make up of proteins vary so some are more valuable and should take preference over others (particularly low in leucine sources) but I personally don't agree with the approach of excluding things that aren't 'proper' protein, whatever that is.

Also irrational unfounded belief that there is a linear link to the level of mass built and maintained to the amount of protein consumed.

And also an aversion to carbs due to misinformation and insulin sensitivity and other responses (water retention, bloating etc).

Personal preference too, so people just prefer to eat a diet weighted more heavily in protein due to the food sources they enjoy.

When I stopped over-consuming protein and transitioned to replacing these calories with carbohydrates my composition and performance improved.

Currently consuming 0.8g/lb with no adverse effects. Not to mention my food bill has become much more reasonable. Nothing wrong with having a day where protein is particularly high if you're enjoying a food you wouldn't normally and consuming it for the purpose of enjoyment, rather than belief it's going to 'give you gains'.


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## Goranchero (Mar 26, 2015)

Somewhat related... has anyone here been following the DIAAS scoring development? Its a new method of comparing protein quality based not just on amino acid content, but ileal digestability as well. Unless the protein is digested and absorbed in the small intestine before it passes through the ileum, the body makes no beneficial use of it. If it ends up in the large intestine, it is likely to undergo proteolytic fermentation feeding undesirable gut bacteria (Clostridia) and ending up as a variety of harmful toxic compounds. It is also quite interesting to see what differences denaturation by cooking or acidification makes for certain protein types.

Bottom line, maybe it is better to watch the quality of protein consumed rather than focusing on quantity. If it causes more harm than gain, then a more neutral calorie source, like carbohydrate or fats is preferable.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Nice post, lets not forget that carbs are the fuel you use in the gym, not protein unless you take so much it converts to fuel.



BennyC said:


> Several reasons, mostly because the fitness industry has perpetuated the 'cash cow' of protein protein protein. And now with all these 'novelty' suddenly healthy and okay to eat 'protein products' (brownies, popcorn, wafers etc) protein is being over consumed to an even greater extent. If people tracked their intake I'm sure they would be horrified at just how high it is.
> 
> I've seen people on this forum negate protein consumed from food sources that aren't lean meat/fish/eggs etc considering, for example, 100g of oats contains 11g of protein, with many here consuming oats every day that's almost another 80g of protein a week being consumed but not accounted for. Brocolli has 5g of protein per 200g, etc etc. Yes the amino make up of proteins vary so some are more valuable and should take preference over others (particularly low in leucine sources) but I personally don't agree with the approach of excluding things that aren't 'proper' protein, whatever that is.
> 
> ...


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## BennyC (Mar 18, 2010)

hackskii said:


> Nice post, lets not forget that carbs are the fuel you use in the gym, not protein unless you take so much it converts to fuel.


Yep, I was going to mention gluconeogenesis but don't really know enough detail about it. Consuming huge amounts of protein is just a very expensive way to obtain glycogen, lighten your wallet and imbalance your diet :whistling:


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

BennyC said:


> Yep, I was going to mention gluconeogenesis but don't really know enough detail about it. Consuming huge amounts of protein is just a very expensive way to obtain glycogen, lighten your wallet and imbalance your diet :whistling:


And probably push your uric acid up as well.


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## DORIAN (Feb 8, 2011)

TommyBananas said:


> We aren't, well, people with brains aren't (unless theyre very very heavy people)


Tommy just out of interest how much protein

do you take in on a day. Though a man with a chest

as big as yours would of been 300+? Cheers


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## TommyBananas (Nov 23, 2014)

DORIAN said:


> Tommy just out of interest how much protein
> 
> do you take in on a day. Though a man with a chest
> 
> as big as yours would of been 300+? Cheers


A massive 150-181g.


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## BennyC (Mar 18, 2010)

TommyBananas said:


> A massive 150-181g.


That feel when a 4oz steak with dinner is sufficient to meet your protein needs :stupid:


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## DORIAN (Feb 8, 2011)

TommyBananas said:


> A massive 150-181g.


Thats impressive mate. Im taking in far to much


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## TommyBananas (Nov 23, 2014)

DORIAN said:


> Thats impressive mate. Im taking in far to much


But, Dorian, you won the Olympia, its ok!


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## SK50 (Apr 7, 2013)

It is difficult for anyone to know for sure, but I feel that I have done my best while on high protein intake (250g+).

If you're loading yourself up with protein synthesising steroids, it is better to take in more than you need to capitalise on the opportunity, even if you have some overspill into energy burn.

Protein is an efficient macronutrient if overeaten, so eat lots of it.


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## TommyBananas (Nov 23, 2014)

SK50 said:


> It is difficult for anyone to know for sure, but I feel that I have done my best while on high protein intake (250g+).
> 
> If you're loading yourself up with protein synthesising steroids, it is better to take in more than you need to capitalise on the opportunity, even if you have some overspill into energy burn.
> 
> Protein is an efficient macronutrient if overeaten, so eat lots of it.


As are carbs. It will be down to personal preference, I just don't like it when people say you *must* eat so much, when its bs.


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## SK50 (Apr 7, 2013)

TommyBananas said:


> As are carbs. It will be down to personal preference, I just don't like it when people say you *must* eat so much, when its bs.


You're right - if we knew the ideal protein amount to intake we would balance the rest with carbs (after a moderate fat intake). But we don't, so IMO overeating on protein is a sensible protocol.


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## dannythinx (Oct 4, 2014)

Truth is NO ONE knows definitively. Protein ime is overhyped probably by the companies that sell it. I'm also doubting all your calls need to be clean etc.. I think that's all bs. I eat pretty much whatever and I have def frown muscle over the years I've been training and rarely gone above 120g in protein a day. I'm now cutting and am loosing weight almost a stone now in six weeks and still eat whatever just less of it. If you go in the gym and damage your muscle fibres it's not like your body's going to say. F that I'm not repairing you because this carb is not from brown rice or this protein didn't come from skinless chicken breast. It's a sophisticated machine and it will repair you as long as it has ENOUGH materials to do the job.. The Canadian Olympic nutritionists concluded that the appropriate amount of tein for a strength athlete is 1g per kilo of body weight not pound. If your eating 200g of tein a day that's 1400g in a week that's 1.4kg in protein!! Do you think your body can use that?? Can it f. IMO of course


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## Big Man 123 (Aug 1, 2013)

Juic3Up said:


> I was thinking last night while falling asleep.
> 
> I've always thought DIETING was a lot more complex than just CALS IN vs. CALS OUT, more to the point of precisely calculating your Protein, Carbs and Fat.
> 
> ...


You have a pool of aminoacids in your body, once you have gathered the amount needed for your body, you use them whatever you may need, included building structures, that pool has a limited amount of time to collect those aminoacids, usually days, if you have not gathered the amount needed in that period of time, the structures you were building are disolved.

So the guy will get fat and if he doesn't eat protein in several days, he won't build muscle.


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## FlunkyTurtle (Aug 5, 2013)

TommyBananas said:


> In a surplus, even lower than 1g is fine as shown in studies.
> 
> People think they need so much protein in a surplus and it blows my mind.


I eat 360 grams of protein a day.

Come at me bro! :lol:


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## TommyBananas (Nov 23, 2014)

FlunkyTurtle said:


> I eat 360 grams of protein a day.
> 
> Come at me bro! :lol:


Your loss, I'd rather enjoy some carbs and tastier food


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## FlunkyTurtle (Aug 5, 2013)

SK50 said:


> It is difficult for anyone to know for sure, *but I feel that I have done my best while on high protein intake (250g+). *If you're loading yourself up with protein synthesising steroids, it is better to take in more than you need to capitalise on the opportunity, even if you have some overspill into energy burn.
> 
> Protein is an efficient macronutrient if overeaten, so eat lots of it.


This - I don't know the science behind it but i'm seeing a lot more progress with more protein, and a bit more carbs (not a lot).

I'm now the heaviest i've ever been and i'm still under 15% i would say.


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## FlunkyTurtle (Aug 5, 2013)

TommyBananas said:


> Your loss, I'd rather enjoy some carbs and tastier food


See i don't mind because i can't stand carb rich food, in fact i hate food in general.

If i could just take a pill and never eat again i totally would.


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## TommyBananas (Nov 23, 2014)

FlunkyTurtle said:


> See i don't mind because i can't stand carb rich food, in fact i hate food in general.
> 
> If i could just take a pill and never eat again i totally would.


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## Peace frog (Jul 2, 2014)

FlunkyTurtle said:


> See i don't mind because i can't stand carb rich food, in fact i hate food in general.
> 
> If i could just take a pill and never eat again i totally would.


Same here I'm not that fussed about food so have no problem sticking to whatever diet I decide on


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## FlunkyTurtle (Aug 5, 2013)

TommyBananas said:


>


I get no enjoyment at all from food mate, never have really, never comfort eat or anything.

It's like how you feel about clean eating and @banzi


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## TommyBananas (Nov 23, 2014)

FlunkyTurtle said:


> I get no enjoyment at all from food mate, never have really, never comfort eat or anything.
> 
> It's like how you feel about clean eating and @banzi


You're missin' out bruh.


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## FlunkyTurtle (Aug 5, 2013)

Peace frog said:


> Same here I'm not that fussed about food so have no problem sticking to whatever diet I decide on


I struggle with dry food, i have to put SOMETHING on it otherwise it just takes me an hour to chomp through it.


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## FlunkyTurtle (Aug 5, 2013)

TommyBananas said:


> You're missin' out bruh.


I just get my endorphins from other sources, like smashing the missus and occasionally smoking a cigarette out of the bathroom window in secret.


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## Peace frog (Jul 2, 2014)

FlunkyTurtle said:



> I struggle with dry food, i have to put SOMETHING on it otherwise it just takes me an hour to chomp through it.


I tend to just drink loads of water with any dry meals I'm lucky I only bulk on 3500 calories,I see people bulking on 5000+ and just think fvck that,not sure I could force all that down everyday


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## FlunkyTurtle (Aug 5, 2013)

Peace frog said:


> I tend to just drink loads of water with any dry meals I'm lucky I only bulk on 3500 calories,I see people bulking on 5000+ and just think fvck that,not sure I could force all that down everyday


4100 is a challenge mate, it takes me an hour to eat my dinner, there's not enough hours in the day to eat!

I don't know how i'm going to add more food in when i go up to 5000


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## C.Hill (Nov 21, 2010)

FlunkyTurtle said:


> 4100 is a challenge mate, it takes me an hour to eat my dinner, there's not enough hours in the day to eat!
> 
> I don't know how i'm going to add more food in when i go up to 5000


Fcuking easy mate. 2x 1000kcal shakes and 4 500kcal meals, cushty.


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## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

Calories from different food sources are used at different rates.


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## Major Eyeswater (Nov 2, 2013)

> Study here to suggest that the more of your calories that are made up by protein, the less fat you'll gain compared to a diet in which those calories were made up with less protein and more carbs and fats, and for a change the study was done on those that were experienced lifters. I still don't think it's conclusive and I never take a study as gospel, but it's interesting nevertheless.
> 
> The effects of consuming a high protein diet (4.4 g/kg/d) on body composition in resistance-trained individuals. - PubMed - NCBI


It is an interesting read, but the main conclusion of that study seems to be that an extra 160g of protein a day doesn't make a gnats willy of difference. The high protein group didn't gain significantly more muscle over 8 weeks than the low protein group.

The striking thing is that the high protein group were running a surplus of around 800 calories a day. Even allowing for 25-30% of the calories in protein to be wasted as heat, there should still be a fair difference after 8 weeks.


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## nWo (Mar 25, 2014)

Major Eyeswater said:


> It is an interesting read, but the main conclusion of that study seems to be that an extra 160g of protein a day doesn't make a gnats willy of difference. The high protein group didn't gain significantly more muscle over 8 weeks than the low protein group.
> 
> The striking thing is that the high protein group were running a surplus of around 800 calories a day. Even allowing for 25-30% of the calories in protein to be wasted as heat, there should still be a fair difference after 8 weeks.


Exactly mate. The point of the study was, long story short, excess amounts of protein won't equal fat gain, meaning they'll either be used or wasted. What I take from that, is that certain drugs increase protein synthesis and the aforementioned knowledge could possibly be used to utilise these drugs to increase gains whilst minimising fat gain by altering the ratios of your macros to allow high amounts of protein that will actually be used.

Reading this study gave me that extra bit of confidence to really push my protein levels up when using T3 whilst running bulk cycles - what with the increase in PTOR from the T3 I did well on 300+ grams of protein each day on previous cycles and felt like the extra protein was actually being used as the gains were better, because I was on the T3. T3 also improves the metabolisation of carbs and fats, but I believe that it was because I lowered both of them a bit to make way for the extra protein that I gained pretty much no fat on a large surplus.

Once I've finished cutting to get rid of the fat I've accumulated over the last couple of years, with the idea that I can probably add more protein on top of what I'm eating without an increased risk of fat gain, I'm curious as to the extent of the increased protein synthesis of T3 and how much protein can be utilised whilst using it on a bulk cycle, in terms of whether I notice a significant difference in gains and fat gain between, say, 300g and 400g and maybe 500g. There is no certainty by any stretch and this may end up a failed experiment, but I'm hoping I can make good of it as I currently believe T3 to be a highly underrated drug to add to a bulking stack.


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## Robbie (Dec 31, 2007)

What if the nutrient partitioning benefits of steroids meant you needed less protein while on...

/mindblown


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## Mingster (Mar 25, 2011)

TommyBananas said:


> Your loss, I'd rather enjoy some carbs and tastier food


Protein is way tastier than carbs.

I can eat 500g of protein and still have room for plenty of carbs and fats on a cut


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## TommyBananas (Nov 23, 2014)

Mingster said:


> Protein is way tastier than carbs.
> 
> I can eat 500g of protein and still have room for plenty of carbs and fats on a cut


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## mal (Dec 31, 2009)

> ]Protein is way tastier than carbs.
> 
> I can eat 500g of protein and still have room for plenty of carbs and fats on a cut


and cheaper if you compare the price of a chicken brest to a burger or pizza or other infant food.


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## Mingster (Mar 25, 2011)

TommyBananas said:


>


Cheese. Steak. Eggs. Cheese. Nuts, Salmon. Bacon. Did I mention Cheese? Prawns. Most of the good stuff on pizza. Fish fingers. Peanut butter. These proteins all taste great.

Sweet Potato ffs. Tastes like rancid hyena sh1te


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## Nuts (Aug 19, 2013)

Mingster said:


> Cheese. Steak. Eggs. Cheese. Nuts, Salmon. Bacon. Did I mention Cheese? Prawns. Most of the good stuff on pizza. Fish fingers. Peanut butter. These proteins all taste great.
> 
> Sweet Potato ffs. Tastes like *rancid hyena sh1te*


 :lol: :lol: :lol:

Can't say I have tried this to compare but will take your word for it


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## TommyBananas (Nov 23, 2014)

Mingster said:


> Cheese. Steak. Eggs. Cheese. Nuts, Salmon. Bacon. Did I mention Cheese? Prawns. Most of the good stuff on pizza. Fish fingers. Peanut butter. These proteins all taste great.
> 
> Sweet Potato ffs. Tastes like rancid hyena sh1te


To be fair, it isn't that I dislike those foods, I love them, but things like Oats, Rice, and the 'treat' things you'd fit in a diet are what really get me. I love bread too. 

I eat a lot of Chicken, but I don't really like it, Steak is alright, but I don't like chewy Steak so more the hache steak type of thing. Bacon is amazing but I keep sodium low (hypertension), Cheese is alright - but anyway, you're a big bloke, I'm a tiny little twerp, so I have a much smaller calorie allowance to hit certain things etc.


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## Mingster (Mar 25, 2011)

TommyBananas said:


> To be fair, it isn't that I dislike those foods, I love them, but things like Oats, Rice, and the 'treat' things you'd fit in a diet are what really get me. I love bread too.
> 
> I eat a lot of Chicken, but I don't really like it, Steak is alright, but I don't like chewy Steak so more the hache steak type of thing. Bacon is amazing but I keep sodium low (hypertension), Cheese is alright - but anyway, you're a big bloke, I'm a tiny little twerp, so I have a much smaller calorie allowance to hit certain things etc.


So grow Being able to eat more stuff should be everyones motivation for training:thumbup1:


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## Mingster (Mar 25, 2011)

Nuts60 said:


> :lol: :lol: :lol:
> 
> Can't say I have tried this to compare but will take your word for it


I'm using my imagination But sweet potato is easily the worst thing I've ever tasted. Can't understand how people like the stuff.


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## TommyBananas (Nov 23, 2014)

Mingster said:


> So grow Being able to eat more stuff should be everyones motivation for training:thumbup1:


I am trying to lean down so banzi can take a picture and put it by his bedside table. I maintain at like maybe.. hmm, 3000-3500 (depending on cardio) so it's not bad when I'm maintaining. But at 2,200 right now and it sucks mane.

Sweet Potato is amazing, though. Hater!


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## Mingster (Mar 25, 2011)

TommyBananas said:


> I am trying to lean down so banzi can take a picture and put it by his bedside table. I maintain at like maybe.. hmm, 3000-3500 (depending on cardio) so it's not bad when I'm maintaining. But at 2,200 right now and it sucks mane.
> 
> Sweet Potato is amazing, though. Hater!


Forget leaning down. Add muscle and your bodyfat will come down automatically

Sweet Pots and marzipan are the only two foods I can't stand.


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## Nuts (Aug 19, 2013)

Mingster said:


> I'm using my imagination But sweet potato is easily the worst thing I've ever tasted. Can't understand how people like the stuff.


Sweet potato is great if cooked in the mike with lemon and then mashed with piri piri sauce, on its own it's pants mg:


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## Nuts (Aug 19, 2013)

Mingster said:


> I'm using my imagination But sweet potato is easily the worst thing I've ever tasted. Can't understand how people like the stuff.


Sweet potato is great if cooked in the mike with lemon and then mashed with piri piri sauce, on its own it's pants mg:


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

My triceps are sore.

OOPS, wrong thread:lol:

Sweet potato is ok, you have to dress it up with a lot of butter:

Sweet Potato Balls Recipe : Paula Deen : Food Network!


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## Mingster (Mar 25, 2011)

Nuts60 said:


> Sweet potato is great if cooked in the mike with lemon and then mashed with piri piri sauce, on its own it's pants mg:


This is like quark. It tastes of nothing by itself so you have to add flavour. I'd rather eat something which has flavour to start with.


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## BennyC (Mar 18, 2010)

Mingster said:


> Protein is way tastier than carbs.
> 
> I can eat 500g of protein and still have room for plenty of carbs and fats on a cut


Subjective, but I (no ****) love me some meat. :lol: Ironically You could eat 500g of carbs and have just as much room for protein and fats on a cut, because you know, same calories per gram. :tongue:



mal said:


> and cheaper if you compare the price of a chicken brest to a burger or pizza or other infant food.


Chicken breast is not cheaper than oats, pasta, bananas, potatoes etc. Comparing a processed food to a wholefood isn't really a true comparison for value :innocent:


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## mal (Dec 31, 2009)

BennyC said:


> Subjective, but I (no ****) love me some meat. :lol: Ironically You could eat 500g of carbs and have just as much room for protein and fats on a cut, because you know, same calories per gram. :tongue:
> 
> Chicken breast is not cheaper than oats, pasta, bananas, potatoes etc. Comparing a processed food to a wholefood isn't really a true comparison for value :innocent:


your right there,still rather protein though,potatos just a ball of suger lol.


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## TommyBananas (Nov 23, 2014)

mal said:


> your right there,still rather protein though,potatos just a ball of suger lol.


u wot m8


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## bail (Mar 19, 2010)

Mingster said:


> Forget leaning down. Add muscle and your bodyfat will come down automatically
> 
> Sweet Pots and marzipan are the only two foods I can't stand.


The skin of sweet pot when it's been on Tupperware all day is enough to send me into macdees


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## I Punched A Cow (Nov 21, 2010)

I tell all the fatties its calories in vs calories out as all this SYN free meal stuff I see on Facebook really annoys me. Not that I know how these systems work... assuming they do work. They hand out certificates for losing the amount of weight in a week that I move in one visit to the bathroom.


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## Gotista (Sep 25, 2012)

TommyBananas said:


> To be fair, it isn't that I dislike those foods, I love them, but things like Oats, Rice, and the 'treat' things you'd fit in a diet are what really get me. I love bread too.
> 
> I eat a lot of Chicken, but I don't really like it, Steak is alright, but I don't like chewy Steak so more the hache steak type of thing. Bacon is amazing but I keep sodium low (hypertension), Cheese is alright - but anyway, you're a big bloke, I'm a tiny little twerp, so I have a much smaller calorie allowance to hit certain things etc.


Didn't you say you hate food? :S


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## TommyBananas (Nov 23, 2014)

Gotista said:


> Didn't you say you hate food? :S


what?


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## bail (Mar 19, 2010)

Juic3Up said:


> I was thinking last night while falling asleep.
> 
> I've always thought DIETING was a lot more complex than just CALS IN vs. CALS OUT, more to the point of precisely calculating your Protein, Carbs and Fat.
> 
> ...


Could pull a tekkers

Eat 4k of carbs and then wonder why your a fat cvnt

If anyone says you can get big eating 4k of just carbs

All I can say is prove it

I don't think massive amounts of protein are needed

I used to hit 400g protein all the time cut it down to 300g no diff at all

However you need everything in their

How much of each is down to your body Type also level of physical activity

Eg myself I graft all day and have f all carbs until around 2


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## bail (Mar 19, 2010)

Big ape said:


> yeah it is calories in v calories out if its just weight loss and don't care about body composition and muscle gain/loss ... if u wanna preserve muscle / gain muscle ur gonna need protein ...


Nail on the head imo


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

Calories in vs calories out is absolute, but people often erroneously think of it as an equation for fat loss rather than for what it is which is a change in the total energy the body has stored, and that is an important difference because although fat loss/gain very closely follows energy balance it doesn't completely.

Basically, kcals in vs kcals out works like this over a day:

Total caloric value of chemical energy in the body at the start at the day + value of absorbed chemical energy through nutrition - value of chemical energy utilized and excreted = new total caloric value of the body at the end of the day.

If there is a net gain then the body will gain mass, if a net loss then it will lose mass. Calories in vs calories out always totally accurately represents the change.

Where is gets complex is trying to figure out exactly where (which bodily tissues and energy stores) chemical energy will be lost from in a net deficit and where it will be added in a net surplus, and a lot of that depends upon an interaction between the state of the body at the time (state of glycogen levels, whether stimulated to add muscle such as after resistance exercise or not, health and genetic differences etc) and the macro composition and type of food eaten both over the whole day and per meal.

In general though, if consuming a net surplus of energy but not monitoring calories to control potential fat gain (eating ad-libitum rather than to a macro or calorie controlled diet), the best macro to consume a lot of is protein because a) more protein means more energy out due to increased TEF (thermic effect of food), and B) because amino acids do not convert directly to fat. Protein also is more satiating than carbs and fats and reduces hunger and potential to crazily overeat more.

Carbs are hard to convert to body fat (it only happens to any meaningful degree with a very high continual carb excess) but an excess of carbs does mean less calories out via TEF than for protein (the TEF of carbs is roughly one third that of for protein) and a switch away from fat burning to glycogen burning. This then means that almost all dietary fat eaten along with a lot of carbs will be stored as body fat and very little burned for energy - not a good mix for when eating excess calories in an uncontrolled way.

A high dietary fat intake on the other hand actually stimulates fat burning better than the other two macros but also comes with the flip side that the kcals burned to TEF are much lower, almost non-existent, and that dietary fat is by far the most easily stored macro as body fat. This means that when an excess of fat is eaten in an uncontrolled fashion although a lot of body fat is burned, a lot of dietary fat is also stored, and so there will still be a significant net gain of fat storage.

All of that together suggests a high protein moderate carb and moderate fat intake, when eating ad-libitum, is the way to go to potentially avoid excess fat gain when bulking... but when not eating ad-libitum and actually putting a limit on overall macros (and therefore also setting a limit on the degree of energy excess), the macro balance matters less in one way because the cap on energy intake will itself limit the rate of fat gain. Where macro balance does still matter though is that different people feel more or less hungry, have better or worse sleep, perceived energy levels and mood on different balances of macros, and so finding a macro balance that makes you feel most comfortable and able to eat appropriately and consistently is still very important and IMO the main reason why you should still count macros and not just calories.

One final thing about a higher protein intake though - while it may well help limit the degree of fat gain in a prolonged calorie deficit, one thing that doesn't happen is that (beyond a fairly modest amount of protein) ever increasing protein intake will also cause ever increasing gains in muscle mass. While it's true that athletes and active individuals looking to continually increase muscle mass do need higher protein intakes relative to body-weight than non-exercising individuals, the amount above for most individuals doesn't appear huge. The one exception is those taking steroids where the normal anabolic-catabolic balance of muscle tissue is profoundly altered allowing a muscle that has been stimulated to grow via exercise to be both less likely to lose amino acids for conversion to energy during normal metabolism and also able to synthesize amino acids into muscle at a faster and higher rate.


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## Pitbull999 (Jun 3, 2012)

hackskii said:


> I dont agree with much of the protein guys take.
> 
> I am 226 pounds, so lets day 226 grams of protein a day, that would be 6.5 chicken breasts a day, or 62 eggs a day.
> 
> ...


So why do the pro's advocate 350+ gramms a day? Of course I realise there physiques are on a different planet to the rest of us


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Pitbull999 said:


> So why do the pro's advocate 350+ gramms a day? Of course I realise there physiques are on a different planet to the rest of us


You want to eat 10 plus chicken breasts a day to supply your body with enough protein?

Look at that logically, if you saw 10 or more chicken breasts on a plate and said eat that, you would laugh.

Doubtful a guy needs 4/5ths of a pound of protein a day when a guy won't gain half a pound of muscle a week.


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## mal (Dec 31, 2009)

if you stop growing,you needs more protein,, end of.......carbs build no muscle.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

mal said:


> if you stop growing,you needs more protein,, end of.......carbs build no muscle.


That is not true.

If you under train, or overtrain, you can stop growing, if you don't eat enough food, you may stop growing, if you don't get enough sleep, you stop growing.

Carbohydrates spare protein.

Carbohydrates are the most ready source of glucose out of all food types and glucose is required for formation of ATP.

ATP is that energy the muscles use to fire during the lift, once ATP is low, you stop lifting.

Then between rest, ADP (spent muscles lets say), converts back to ATP via way of borrowing a phosphate from creatine, and thus you can lift over time.

So, eating more protein than you need, eating less carbs that you need, all will equate to loss of strength, and probably performance in the gym.


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## jammie2013 (Nov 14, 2013)

hackskii said:


> That is not true.
> 
> If you under train, or overtrain, you can stop growing, if you don't eat enough food, you may stop growing, if you don't get enough sleep, you stop growing.
> 
> ...


Unfortunately people get fixated on reductionist thinking, i.e. the biochemical process of hypertrophy instead of the mechanisms that trigger such biochemical adaptations (the training, the diet). Is a positive change in muscle cross sectional area due to positive protein balance? yes. But there's far more to it than "eat lots of protein"


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

jammie2013 said:


> Unfortunately people get fixated on reductionist thinking, i.e. the biochemical process of hypertrophy instead of the mechanisms that trigger such biochemical adaptations (the training, the diet). Is a positive change in muscle cross sectional area due to positive protein balance? yes. But there's far more to it than "eat lots of protein"


If one eats too much protein, and has to modify the other macros down this is no benefit.

Many power lifters eat tons of carbs, as ATP is needed for maximal lifts.

I do feel many eat too much protein, and carbs do help with fullness in the muscle, after all they are carbo(HYDRATES).

Mike Menser had some pretty interesting ideas on carbs, and protein, and for the record, much lower than most on this board.


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## jammie2013 (Nov 14, 2013)

hackskii said:


> If one eats too much protein, and has to modify the other macros down this is no benefit.
> 
> Many power lifters eat tons of carbs, as ATP is needed for maximal lifts.
> 
> ...


Amino acids are what? 58% glucogenic? that's some really expensive glucose


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

mal said:


> if you stop growing,you needs more protein,, end of.......carbs build no muscle.


Nonsense. It takes energy to build muscle, not just protein. If I ate the same amount of protein tomorrow as today, but dropped all my carbs so that i was in a large calorie deficit, I would stop growing. Eating more protein would not by any stretch of the imagination be a sensible way to correct this.


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## TommyBananas (Nov 23, 2014)

mal said:


> if you stop growing,you needs more protein,, end of.......carbs build no muscle.


I don't know where you "learnt" this stuff, but lolol, you need to educate yourself meng.


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## mal (Dec 31, 2009)

TommyBananas said:


> I don't know where you "learnt" this stuff, but lolol, you need to educate yourself meng.


youl up your doses before anything else ide imagine,you've already stopped growing and your strength gainz will

stall soon........come and see me in a year and I will give you lessons in nutrition and other areas.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

jammie2013 said:


> Amino acids are what? 58% glucogenic? that's some really expensive glucose


Not sure the %, but protein of all foods give the least efficint fuel source, a balanced diet would be far better than hammering more protein.


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## TommyBananas (Nov 23, 2014)

mal said:


> youl up your doses before anything else ide imagine,you've already stopped growing and your strength gainz will
> 
> stall soon........come and see me in a year and I will give you lessons in nutrition and other areas.


I've never used anything over 500mg of testosterone for 12 weeks and 50mg of anavar for 5 weeks and 50mg of anadrol for 4 weeks, in the 2 years I've used drugs. Yes, I'm a massive drug abuser and I don't know anything.

You are really dumb and a troll.


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## Smitch (Dec 29, 2008)

TommyBananas said:


> I've never used anything over 500mg of testosterone for 12 weeks and 50mg of anavar for 5 weeks and 50mg of anadrol for 4 weeks, in the 2 years I've used drugs. Yes, I'm a massive drug abuser and I don't know anything.
> 
> *
> **You are really dumb and a troll*.


If you saw pics of Mal you'd probably not think that.


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## TommyBananas (Nov 23, 2014)

Smitch said:


> If you saw pics of Mal you'd probably not think that.


He could look like Phil Heath, he still would be absolutely incorrect about *everything* he has said in this thread.


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## Smitch (Dec 29, 2008)

TommyBananas said:


> He could look like Phil Heath, he still would be absolutely incorrect about *everything* he has said in this thread.


You seem to have a habit of disagreeing with competitive BB'ers. :lol:


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## TommyBananas (Nov 23, 2014)

Smitch said:


> You seem to have a habit of disagreeing with competitive BB'ers. :lol:


The level of retardation that emits from their keyboard/brain, is offensive, that is why :thumb:


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## mal (Dec 31, 2009)

TommyBananas said:


> I've never used anything over 500mg of testosterone for 12 weeks and 50mg of anavar for 5 weeks and 50mg of anadrol for 4 weeks, in the 2 years I've used drugs. Yes, I'm a massive drug abuser and I don't know anything.
> 
> You are really dumb and a troll.


go and eat a pie bro,youl get that 200 bench.


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## TommyBananas (Nov 23, 2014)

mal said:


> go and eat a pie bro,youl get that 200 bench.


I'll make sure not to eat potato, just a ball of "suger" as you put it. You are definitely the height of intelligence.


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## mal (Dec 31, 2009)

TommyBananas said:


> I'll make sure not to eat potato, just a ball of "suger" as you put it. You are definitely the height of intelligence.


sugar.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

The problem with a lot of protein and even too much is the body will adapt to that, and be its new set point over time.

Once the enzymes are in action to break down the protein, the body gets better at that.

And guys that eat huge amounts of protein are more efficient at breaking that down to energy.

Only way to get things back to normal is to cycle protein, to get back to the amount the body normally uses.

So, it may be said that guys that always eat 500grams of protein a day may have benefits of upping that, but saying stalls in the gym are due to protein, many more variables running around to discount all of them and blame it on protein.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Gram for gram I would eat a potato over sugar.

They both do have a different GI score, they are not the same.

But, then one could say that about anything that is a carbohydrate I guess.


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## TommyBananas (Nov 23, 2014)

mal said:


> sugar.


Was quoting the way you wrote it mate


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## mal (Dec 31, 2009)

TommyBananas said:


> Was quoting the way you wrote it mate


there is an ignore function if you disagree with my very few posts on here lol.


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## TommyBananas (Nov 23, 2014)

mal said:


> there is an ignore function if you disagree with my very few posts on here lol.


I don't want to ignore you, I just want to tell you the information you're putting across is incorrect. You may very well still be a lovely person


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## mal (Dec 31, 2009)

TommyBananas said:


> I don't want to ignore you, I just want to tell you the information you're putting across is incorrect. You may very well still be a lovely person


lets just agree to disagree on the matter........theres no one way after all..


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

The more protein you eat above physiological need for tissue repair, neurotransmitter and enzyme production etc the more you burn for energy via deamination.

Deamination occurs basically when amino acid supply exceeds the amount needed for the above processes and the excess amino acids get stripped down in the liver and kidneys partly into ammonia from the amine part of the molecule, which then becomes urea and to be excreted via your pee, and the remaining carbon skeleton which is converted either to glucose or ketones depending on the specific amino acid and other physiologically useful molecules. Glucogenic amino acids, the ones that produce glucose rather than ketones, are often used to replenish liver glycogen and to supply energy during high intensity exercise - especially on low carb diets where available glucose is lower. Deamination is higher when eating low carb because of this ability to extract glucose from amino acids.

One sign that excess amino acids are being deaminated is dark urine and smelly sweat or urine or slightly frothy urine - something quite common on high protein diets, and I'd bet most people here who have gone above 2g protein per 1kg bodyweight would notice a slight increase in these things if they paid attention. That's a sign your body has an abundance of protein to work with.

Am not saying that when the body starts upregulating deamination it's a bad thing or a waste of protein, the byproducts beyond the ammonia are physiologically useful, just that it's an indicator that protein intake is way exceeding basic need.


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## Pitbull999 (Jun 3, 2012)

hackskii said:


> You want to eat 10 plus chicken breasts a day to supply your body with enough protein?
> 
> Look at that logically, if you saw 10 or more chicken breasts on a plate and said eat that, you would laugh.
> 
> Doubtful a guy needs 4/5ths of a pound of protein a day when a guy won't gain half a pound of muscle a week.


So wy do the pro's do it?


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## richardrahl (Nov 19, 2007)

dtlv said:


> The more protein you eat above physiological need for tissue repair, neurotransmitter and enzyme production etc the more you burn for energy via deamination.
> 
> Deamination occurs basically when amino acid supply exceeds the amount needed for the above processes and the excess amino acids get stripped down in the liver and kidneys partly into ammonia from the amine part of the molecule, which then becomes urea and to be excreted via your pee, and the remaining carbon skeleton which is converted either to glucose or ketones depending on the specific amino acid and other physiologically useful molecules. Glucogenic amino acids, the ones that produce glucose rather than ketones, are often used to replenish liver glycogen and to supply energy during high intensity exercise - especially on low carb diets where available glucose is lower. Deamination is higher when eating low carb because of this ability to extract glucose from amino acids.
> 
> ...


Took the words right out of my mouth... :whistling:

Thanks for the dose of intellectual inferiority.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Pitbull999 said:


> So wy do the pro's do it?


Look, pretty sure none of us are privy to their diets, or cycles, so lets not say something to validate a bad point?

I doubt pros eat as much protein as some guys on the forum suggest.


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## Robbie (Dec 31, 2007)

hackskii said:



> Look, pretty sure none of us are privy to their diets, or cycles, so lets not say something to validate a bad point?
> 
> I doubt pros eat as much protein as some guys on the forum suggest.


If I was a pro or a would be pro and looking for attention to help push my profile on social media etc. I would most definitely lie about a lot of things.

One would be to make out I eat a SH1T TONNE of protein - especially as that is what a lot of my sponsors will sell....


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