# Stopped gaining on test e cycle nearly 8 weeks in.



## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

I'm up 22lbs but some of that will be where I started eating properly again after stopping training/water/fat etc. I'm eating over 6000 cals and can't physically eat much more, feeling fat and bloated all the time. Strength is still going up nicely.

I'm on 500mg of Sphinx Test E.


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## BaronSamedii (Aug 29, 2014)

Swap compounds


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## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

BaronSamedii said:


> Swap compounds


To what?. This is my first proper cycle.


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## BaronSamedii (Aug 29, 2014)

Whatever u want

Your body is used to the test now so dropping it down to a low dose and adding in something new will keep you gaining

DECA or npp should blow you up


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## Jammy Dodger (Nov 2, 2014)

How is strength going mate? I wouldn't just judge it by the scales.

Also as a side note - I have found similar to you. Contrary to what pretty much everyone on here recommends I've upped my dosage to 1g a week. I got no real sides from 600mg, and didn't need to use an AI. So I thought I'd bump it and see what happens. Still less than 10% of what Bostin Lloyd was using. I'm also going to be throwing in some tren ace into the mix. 100mg eod.


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## peanutbob69 (Aug 26, 2010)

Are you sure your test is not very underdosed..? Not even 8 weeks in you should only be starting to make some quality gains now..

I wouldn't add another compound instead I would up the dose to 750mg..if that doesn't work then your test is bunk and the gains you made so far is from eating 6k calories and training properly.


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## peanutbob69 (Aug 26, 2010)

Another thing to note is that gains on a 500mg test cycle is not explosive and sometimes not visually that noticable to one self...but once you come of and drop the water then you will notice some lean gains..


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## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

peanutbob69 said:


> Are you sure your test is not very underdosed..? Not even 8 weeks in you should only be starting to make some quality gains now..
> 
> I wouldn't add another compound instead I would up the dose to 750mg..if that doesn't work then your test is bunk and the gains you made so far is from eating 6k calories and training properly.


I don't think it is under dosed really cos my squat which is one of my weak points has gone up 40kg last few weeks. Also I was eating 4500 cals at first,stalled so upped them to 5000,then to 5500 and now to 6000. I do have an extremely fast metabolism though which is a pain in the ass for me. My muscles feel rock hard and pumped all the time,skins greasy,feeling hot,libido's up and Sphinx is a good lab apparently. Maybe I just need to eat more but I'm struggling too atm.


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## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

peanutbob69 said:


> Another thing to note is that gains on a 500mg test cycle is not explosive and sometimes not visually that noticable to one self...but once you come of and drop the water then you will notice some lean gains..


I definitely look bigger and better,been getting compliments everywhere I go. I'm only bulking for another 2 and a half weeks and then switching to a cut. For 8-10 weeks. Maybe I've got a high tolerance.


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## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

sammym said:


> How is strength going mate? I wouldn't just judge it by the scales.
> 
> Also as a side note - I have found similar to you. Contrary to what pretty much everyone on here recommends I've upped my dosage to 1g a week. I got no real sides from 600mg, and didn't need to use an AI. So I thought I'd bump it and see what happens. Still less than 10% of what Bostin Lloyd was using. I'm also going to be throwing in some tren ace into the mix. 100mg eod.


Strength is amazing, setting pbs every session.Whereas I plataeud for ages before.


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## peanutbob69 (Aug 26, 2010)

FelonE said:


> I don't think it is under dosed really cos my squat which is one of my weak points has gone up 40kg last few weeks. Also I was eating 4500 cals at first,stalled so upped them to 5000,then to 5500 and now to 6000. I do have an extremely fast metabolism though which is a pain in the ass for me. My muscles feel rock hard and pumped all the time,skins greasy,feeling hot,libido's up and Sphinx is a good lab apparently. Maybe I just need to eat more but I'm struggling too atm.


I say just stick it out for another few weeks then...even if you don't see the scales go up much...it could be that your are burning fat while building muscle so your weight stays the same but you are still adding muscle.


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## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

peanutbob69 said:


> I say just stick it out for another few weeks then...even if you don't see the scales go up much...it could be that your are burning fat while building muscle so your weight stays the same but you are still adding muscle.


Cheers mate, will do.


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## nWo (Mar 25, 2014)

Add in an oral to finish off the cycle :thumbup1:


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## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

> Add in an oral to finish off the cycle :thumbup1:


Was gonna add Winny for the cut.


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## UkWardy (Mar 30, 2014)

FelonE said:


> Was gonna add Winny for the cut.


I'd love to use winstrol at the end of my cut but my joints are dry and shot without it :sad:


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## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

UkWardy said:


> I'd love to use winstrol at the end of my cut but my joints are dry and shot without it :sad:


Yeah my joints aren't great atm. Does winny make them worse?


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## Sebbek (Apr 25, 2013)

Up the dosage or ad proviron to it

I'm not a fan of bulking and cutting at the same cycle

Doesn't make sense to me


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## Sebbek (Apr 25, 2013)

FelonE said:


> Yeah my joints aren't great atm. Does winny make them worse?


Stay away from it unless u know how to play with it(ask my triceps ligament )


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## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

Sebbek said:


> Up the dosage or ad proviron to it
> 
> I'm not a fan of bulking and cutting at the same cycle
> 
> Doesn't make sense to me


Why not?


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## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

FelonE said:


> I'm up 22lbs but some of that will be where I started eating properly again after stopping training/water/fat etc. I'm eating over 6000 cals and can't physically eat much more, feeling fat and bloated all the time. Strength is still going up nicely.
> 
> I'm on 500mg of Sphinx Test E.


You have limits as to what you can gain, 22lbs in 8 weeks is likely about 2lb of mucle if you are lucky, the rest is fat and water.

8lb a year lean muscle gain is a massive achievement.


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## Jammy Dodger (Nov 2, 2014)

banzi said:


> You have limits as to what you can gain, 22lbs in 8 weeks is likely about 2lb of mucle if you are lucky, the rest is fat and water.
> 
> 8lb a year lean muscle gain is a massive achievement.


On his first cycle of gear??? I've personally seen people drop fat and put on well over a stone in muscle on a first cycle. That's confirmed with callipers and scales.


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## MrM (Feb 6, 2012)

Maybe look at how you are getting the calories, see if you can do it without the bloat.

I added 30ml olive oil to each shake - so twice a day and found it easy calories to add in.

I also find oats and sweet potatoes bloat me less than rice and bread.

Might be worth giving it a rest for a week - change to light weight / high reps or just go for a swim.


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## Sebbek (Apr 25, 2013)

How much u gonna gain before u start cutting?

Clean bulk


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## dann19900 (Dec 29, 2012)

i always get this, started doing short cycles instead. Think in fairness you'll probably keep more of what you've gained on a long cycle though. I'd add a oral in like suggested or npp will help with joints


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## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

MrM said:


> Maybe look at how you are getting the calories, see if you can do it without the bloat.
> 
> I added 30ml olive oil to each shake - so twice a day and found it easy calories to add in.
> 
> ...


Lol already adding 20ml evoo and 150g oats to each shake


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## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

sammym said:


> On his first cycle of gear??? I've personally seen people drop fat and put on well over a stone in muscle on a first cycle. That's confirmed with callipers and scales.


and what happens when they come off?

I put a stone and a half on from my first cycle, looked great, full and better condition, and that was from 16mgs of Winstrol tabs a day.

Dropped most of it when I came off.

Its what happens.


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## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

banzi said:


> You have limits as to what you can gain, 22lbs in 8 weeks is likely about 2lb of mucle if you are lucky, the rest is fat and water.
> 
> 8lb a year lean muscle gain is a massive achievement.


I'd be p1ssed off if I've only gained 2lbs of muscle in 8 weeks of test cycle lol.


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## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

Sebbek said:


> How much u gonna gain before u start cutting?
> 
> Clean bulk


Haven't set an amount of weight,more a certain amount of weeks.

It is a clean bulk.


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## Jammy Dodger (Nov 2, 2014)

banzi said:


> and what happens when they come off?
> 
> I put a stone and a half on from my first cycle, looked great, full and better condition, and that was from 16mgs of Winstrol tabs a day.
> 
> ...


That depends on more things than it's possible to go into. Some people will retain more. I know guys who have genuinely stopped using gear who are still big. I also know some who used gear and never got big.

Also - it wouldn't mean they had only gained 2lb would it... Unless Felon now has an extra 20lb of far he has gained more muscle than that. If he loses it eventually then it won't change the fact that he's got the muscle.


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## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

FelonE said:


> I'd be p1ssed off if I've only gained 2lbs of muscle in 8 weeks of test cycle lol.


Thats the reality of it mate.


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## dann19900 (Dec 29, 2012)

banzi said:


> You have limits as to what you can gain, 22lbs in 8 weeks is likely about 2lb of mucle if you are lucky, the rest is fat and water.
> 
> 8lb a year lean muscle gain is a massive achievement.


bollox lol seen people gain closer to 80lbs of muscle in a year than 8


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## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

banzi said:


> Thats the reality of it mate.


From all the other opinions I've read on it you're the only one who says that though.


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## Sebbek (Apr 25, 2013)

Sorry mate

Off to hospital expecting baby girl

See ya


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## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

dann19900 said:


> bollox lol seen people gain closer to 80lbs of muscle in a year than 8


Examples with pictures please


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## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

sammym said:


> That depends on more things than it's possible to go into. Some people will retain more. I know guys who have genuinely stopped using gear who are still big. I also know some who used gear and never got big.
> 
> Also - it wouldn't mean they had only gained 2lb would it... Unless Felon now has an extra 20lb of far he has gained more muscle than that. If he loses it eventually then it won't change the fact that he's got the muscle.


My bf looks the same,don't look watery at all. I was the same on M1T,started off around 10% bf and put on alot of weight while staying lean with no bloat.


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## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

Sebbek said:


> Sorry mate
> 
> Off to hospital expecting baby girl
> 
> See ya


Congrats mate.


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## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

FelonE said:


> From all the other opinions I've read on it you're the only one who says that though.


Its my experience.

8 week cycle isnt enough to guage anything, it can take 4 weeks to start gaining muscle after the initial water bloat, and after 6.000 cals a day for 8 weeks you are likely adding way too much fat.


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## dann19900 (Dec 29, 2012)

banzi said:


> Examples with pictures please


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## MrM (Feb 6, 2012)

FelonE said:


> Lol already adding 20ml evoo and 150g oats to each shake


Fair play, if I'm honest I keep sticking at 102 kg - when I eat more I just sweat like a furnace in bed. I'd be interested to hear how you push past your stall. It was suggested that I add 1/2 cup of sugar and a tin of coconut milk to each shake. But it was nasty and gave me the runs. Fcuk that.


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## Jammy Dodger (Nov 2, 2014)

FelonE said:


> My bf looks the same,don't look watery at all. I was the same on M1T,started off around 10% bf and put on alot of weight while staying lean with no bloat.


I wouldn't worry then mate - I'll respect anyone's opinion as I might learn. But I can honestly say I'd be amazed if you lost everything bar the 2lb which seems to have some from no where. For what it's worth - you could have gained more than that naturally in 2 months, so I'm not buying it.


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## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

FelonE said:


> My bf looks the same,don't look watery at all. I was the same on M1T,started off around 10% bf and put on alot of weight while staying lean with no bloat.


Its water retention in the muscle, its what steroids do.


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## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/steroid-and-testosterone-information/poll-1700-lean-mass-gain-test-cycle.html

This poll suggests 10-14 the most,so for arguments sake let's say out of the 22lbs I've put on 12lbs is water and fat......would leave 10lbs of lbm which I'd be happy with.


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## Jammy Dodger (Nov 2, 2014)

banzi said:


> Its water retention in the muscle, its what steroids do.


Using that logic - then where have the calories gone? It would mean you could get massive on average calories and lots of water.


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## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

sammym said:


> That depends on more things than it's possible to go into. Some people will retain more. *I know guys who have genuinely stopped using gear who are still big.* I also know some who used gear and never got big.
> 
> Also - it wouldn't mean they had only gained 2lb would it... Unless Felon now has an extra 20lb of far he has gained more muscle than that. If he loses it eventually then it won't change the fact that he's got the muscle.


Same level of condition and BF levels?


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## elliot1989 (May 3, 2013)

I stopped gaining around week ten. Added dbol and still didn't add any weight. ( dbol was by med tech so was probably dog poo)


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## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

sammym said:


> Using that logic - then where have the calories gone? It would mean you could get massive on average calories and lots of water.


No, thats not 'that logic' at all

You can gain 20lb on a good cycle without eating thousands of calories over maintainance.

Growing into a show ring a bell.

Get you BF levels down to 8% naturally then start a course, see what happens.


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## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

elliot1989 said:


> I stopped gaining around week ten. Added dbol and still didn't add any weight. ( dbol was by med tech so was probably dog poo)


Maybe I'm expecting too much. My squat is up 40kg,bench up 20kg so def not complaining about that. All my lifts are up infact.I find it hard to believe my lifts are shooting up if I haven't gained much lbm.


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## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

banzi said:


> Its my experience.
> 
> 8 week cycle isnt enough to guage anything, it can take 4 weeks to start gaining muscle after the initial water bloat, and after 6.000 cals a day for 8 weeks you are likely adding way too much fat.


I haven't added much fat at all. My metabolism is crazy.


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## naturalun (Mar 21, 2014)

I also stopped gaining about week 9 but I was stupid should of upped cals lol. Next bulk cycle wont be making same mistakes, but aftwr PCT was done I only lost 4lbs of the 19lbs I put on so not all bad.


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## jay101 (Aug 9, 2011)

Sebbek said:


> Sorry mate
> 
> Off to hospital expecting baby girl
> 
> See ya


Now that's a Xmas present lol,

OP try adding npp it'll take a few days to kick in but will be quicker then deca , I wouldn't bother running the winstrol maybe some dbol for last 6 weeks if your clean bulking the water bloat shouldn't be to bad , I personally think adding 40kg on to your squat in 8 weeks is brilliant .


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## mrwright (Oct 22, 2013)

What do you eat in a day to get 6000kcals? Maybe try dirtying it up make it easier get the kcals in

I'd also suggest rather than cutting just drop your kcals down to a normal amount I was on similar kcals to you then I could "cut" on 4000kcals

Plus a lot of what you see as fat will probably be water bloat etc so rather than risk losing what you've gained

Also I'd try changing training it might at least give a slight boost for a while

If I remember right you do like 48583995838759295772 sets and reps? Lol

Try less but give them more I did the same and there was a massive boost

Suddenly I was doing like 10 sets less but the pump doms etc were 10 times better


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## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

mrwright said:


> What do you eat in a day to get 6000kcals? Maybe try dirtying it up make it easier get the kcals in
> 
> I'd also suggest rather than cutting just drop your kcals down to a normal amount I was on similar kcals to you then I could "cut" on 4000kcals
> 
> ...


I have changed training,dropped the high volume for more intense heavy sets.


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## elliot1989 (May 3, 2013)

FelonE said:


> Maybe I'm expecting too much. My squat is up 40kg,bench up 20kg so def not complaining about that. All my lifts are up infact.I find it hard to believe my lifts are shooting up if I haven't gained much lbm.


Yea my sqaut went from 120 for to 140 for ten easily so I'd imagine my one rep would be 160-170 my bench went up 20kg for reps too. You have gained 22lb which is only four off what I did and I was happy just annoyed to come off. Maybe add npp for 6 weeks and add an extra 2 weeks of test


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## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

elliot1989 said:


> Yea my sqaut went from 120 for to 140 for ten easily so I'd imagine my one rep would be 160-170 my bench went up 20kg for reps too. You have gained 22lb which is only four off what I did and I was happy just annoyed to come off. Maybe add npp for 6 weeks and add an extra 2 weeks of test


Is it a bad idea to cut in the same cycle? I would of thought it'd be ok.


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## elliot1989 (May 3, 2013)

FelonE said:


> Is it a bad idea to cut in the same cycle? I would of thought it'd be ok.


Most posts I've read say either bulk or cut not bulk/cut in the same cycle. If you think you can make it work go for it. Do you mean extended the cycle?


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## naturalun (Mar 21, 2014)

FelonE said:


> Is it a bad idea to cut in the same cycle? I would of thought it'd be ok.


I reckon you'd be fine to be honest, just be careful in PCT I'm not sure how but that's a critical time ain't it. Maybe eat just above maintenance in PCT that's all I did and kept everything almost. I'll be cutting in January until I'm down to about 12% then lean bulk for remainder of the cycle, 15 weeks in total.


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## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

elliot1989 said:


> Most posts I've read say either bulk or cut not bulk/cut in the same cycle. If you think you can make it work go for it. Do you mean extended the cycle?


Yeah and lower cals.


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## Huntingground (Jan 10, 2010)

Expecting too much IMO. You have made great gains, gains are not linear, you will have growth spurts and strength spurts.

Keep eating 6k cals, that is plenty, keep gear same, your receptors do not downgrade and there is evidence they upregulate so don't listen to broscience.

One area I would look at is intensity in the gym. Up the intensity. What is your usual workout programme?


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## Jalex (Nov 16, 2014)

FelonE said:


> Is it a bad idea to cut in the same cycle? I would of thought it'd be ok.


I think it will be fine.

I'm planning on lean bulking for 8 weeks with test prop/E and adding anavar last 6 weeks to harden and lean up. Hoping I come out looking much bigger, leaner and stronger.


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## elliot1989 (May 3, 2013)

FelonE said:


> Yeah and lower cals.


Yea go for it extend to 16? That would be an extra four weeks? Chuck in your Winnie, should add more strength with that too. Maybe clen but your bf is alright anyway just go lower cals and add Winnie


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## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

elliot1989 said:


> Yea go for it extend to 16? That would be an extra four weeks? Chuck in your Winnie, should add more strength with that too. Maybe clen but your bf is alright anyway just go lower cals and add Winnie


Done lol. Cheers everyone who posted. :thumbup1:


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## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

Huntingground said:


> Expecting too much IMO. You have made great gains, gains are not linear, you will have growth spurts and strength spurts.
> 
> Keep eating 6k cals, that is plenty, keep gear same, your receptors do not downgrade and there is evidence they upregulate so don't listen to broscience.
> 
> One area I would look at is intensity in the gym. Up the intensity. What is your usual workout programme?


Atm I'm doing a couple of warm up sets then two all out heavy sets.


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## Huntingground (Jan 10, 2010)

FelonE said:


> Atm I'm doing a couple of warm up sets then two all out heavy sets.


To failure? Got a spotter? Need to do forced reps IMO. On at least one set.


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## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

Huntingground said:


> To failure? Got a spotter? Need to do forced reps IMO. On at least one set.


Yeah to failure,no no spotter. Was doing drop sets before but stopped,might do the 2 heavy sets and a couple of drop sets 'til there's nothing left.


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## Huntingground (Jan 10, 2010)

FelonE said:


> Yeah to failure,no no spotter. Was doing drop sets before but stopped,might do the 2 heavy sets and a couple of drop sets 'til there's nothing left.


You are not working hard enough in gym. I am not being a cnut. I wasn't either until I got a coach. Vid gym sesh/heavy set and put up.


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## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

On chest day I ended up rolling the bar off my chest/stomach cos I wanted one more lol.........got the negative ok lol.


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## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

Huntingground said:


> You are not working hard enough in gym. I am not being a cnut. I wasn't either until I got a coach. Vid gym sesh/heavy set and put up.


I used to train like a maniac,lots of sets/drop sets/paused sets etc. Couldn't hold my phone to my ear on the way home. I love that style but people on here were saying it's too much.


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## UkWardy (Mar 30, 2014)

FelonE said:


> Yeah my joints aren't great atm. Does winny make them worse?


Heard it makes a lot of peoples joints dry. Worth trying though as it's cheap.


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## Huntingground (Jan 10, 2010)

FelonE said:


> I used to train like a maniac,lots of sets/drop sets/paused sets etc. Couldn't hold my phone to my ear on the way home. I love that style but people on here were saying it's too much.


Yes, train intelligently but intensely.

One set all out with forced reps etc is good enough if you are shifting decent weight.


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## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

Huntingground said:


> Yes, train intelligently but intensely.
> 
> One set all out with forced reps etc is good enough if you are shifting decent weight.


Flat bench

Flat bench hammer grip

Incline Hammer grip

Incline flyes

Low cable crossover

High cable crossover

4 sets of 6-8 with 2 drop sets on all.

This was what I did for 2yrs and loved it.


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## Sambuca (Jul 25, 2012)

Eat more food

Then eat more

Eat all the food


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## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

Sambuca said:


> Eat more food
> 
> Then eat more
> 
> Eat all the food


Lol That's the first thing I tell other people too but I'm already force feeding myself to the point I'm not hungry at all next meal time and waking up feeling full still,feeling sick and hot when I go to bed.


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## SelflessSelfie (May 25, 2014)

FelonE said:


> I used to train like a maniac,lots of sets/drop sets/paused sets etc. Couldn't hold my phone to my ear on the way home. I love that style but people on here were saying it's too much.


In my opinion it is mate.

Everyone is different and respond to training differently. I have tried training heavy with low rep ranges, training like a maniac for 2 hours at a time, destroying the body part.

I have found I actually grow best from controlling the movement, concentrating on the muscle contraction. Using drop sets to go beyond failure and maintain intensity. Normally only spend 30-45 minutes a session in the gym apart from when training legs as I personally need a larger volume of training to get my legs to grow.

I'm sure you know how to train for your own body by now, so not going to question that. If I were you I would have a stab at upping the dose, for an experiment if anything. See if you carry on gaining then.

But to be honest you have made some very impressive gains so would consider recomping in the latter half of your cycle. Just my thoughts.


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## Jalex (Nov 16, 2014)

You do not need failure.

Train intense, with sufficient volume and add weight to the bar as often as you can.

That and a calorie surplus is how you grow. Lol at people wasting 3 hours on an arm session.

Go in, heavy compounds, few isloations, go home and eat.


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## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

FelonE said:


> I haven't added much fat at all. My metabolism is crazy.


Thats how it may look at the moment, when you come off and lose the fullness I gurantee you will look fatter.


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## oldskoolcool (Oct 4, 2009)

Its not always train more sometimes you need to train less, heavy weights cause alot of trauma the the cns and until that's back to normal it don't matter how much training food or gear you take you will gain **** all been there seen it even on 1gram of gear and 8000 cals per day not 1 oz increase what did the trick was dropping down to training 3 times per week for around 45mins max some weeks only two days.


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## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

banzi said:


> Thats how it may look at the moment, when you come off and lose the fullness I gurantee you will look fatter.


You guarantee? How can you possibly guarantee that? lol. Silly thing to say. You obviously know my body better than I do.


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## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

FelonE said:


> You guarantee? How can you possibly guarantee that? lol. Silly thing to say. You obviously know my body better than I do.


wait and see then


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## Jammy Dodger (Nov 2, 2014)

banzi said:


> Thats how it may look at the moment, when you come off and lose the fullness I gurantee you will look fatter.


You are a bundle of joy - full of the holiday spirit arn't you... lol.

Leave the man alone - fat doesn't just come from no where once you come off cycle. Test can do a lot of things - but hiding bulging fat isn't one of them.


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## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

banzi said:


> wait and see then


So you're prepared to say you were wrong if I'm not?


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## Nuts (Aug 19, 2013)

FelonE said:


> I'm up 22lbs but some of that will be where I started eating properly again after stopping training/water/fat etc. I'm eating over 6000 cals and can't physically eat much more, feeling fat and bloated all the time. Strength is still going up nicely.
> 
> I'm on 500mg of Sphinx Test E.


Not read complete thread but do what I do. I don't reckon it's your test at all, more is not always better, look at your diet, you may be need to get your body back into a state of growth, I do this by manipulating my insulin, so from mon to sat eat clean as poss with moderate clean carbs, rice, sweet potato oats etc just match your macros with those carbs, then on Sunday you want to create a huge insulin spike, kick start your metabolism and put your body an anabolic state, you will feel bloated for a few days, may get a headache and will be tired on Sunday so no training this day. Eat the following between 1000g and 1200g of carbs, less than 20g fat and 200g of protein. Foods to use, crumpets, kids cereals such as frosties or Rice Krispies, 300g of white pasta with low fat tomatoes tinned. Bags of haribos. Egg whites, protein powder zero carb. Do not eat any wheat, dairy, or anything with any significant fat in it. I have it down to 1100g carbs and under 10g fat, by Wednesday ish as everyone is different the bloat should have gone and your metabolism will be raging. Let me know if you try it but a word of warning this day is the hardest day of the week and no training srs! :thumb:


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## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

Nuts60 said:


> Not read complete thread but do what I do. I don't reckon it's your test at all, more is not always better, look at your diet, you may be need to get your body back into a state of growth, I do this by manipulating my insulin, so from mon to sat eat clean as poss with moderate clean carbs, rice, sweet potato oats etc just match your macros with those carbs, then on Sunday you want to create a huge insulin spike, kick start your metabolism and put your body an anabolic state, you will feel bloated for a few days, may get a headache and will be tired on Sunday so no training this day. Eat the following between 1000g and 1200g of carbs, less than 20g fat and 200g of protein. Foods to use, crumpets, kids cereals such as frosties or Rice Krispies, 300g of white pasta with low fat tomatoes tinned. Bags of haribos. Egg whites, protein powder zero carb. Do not eat any wheat, dairy, or anything with any significant fat in it. I have it down to 1100g carbs and under 10g fat, by Wednesday ish as everyone is different the bloat should have gone and your metabolism will be raging. Let me know if you try it but a word of warning this day is the hardest day of the week and no training srs! :thumb:


I don't want my metabolism raging lol it already is,that's why I find it hard to put weight on.


----------



## SelflessSelfie (May 25, 2014)

oldskoolcool said:


> Its not always train more sometimes you need to train less, heavy weights cause alot of trauma the the cns and until that's back to normal it don't matter how much training food or gear you take you will gain **** all been there seen it even on 1gram of gear and 8000 cals per day not 1 oz increase what did the trick was dropping down to training 3 times per week for around 45mins max some weeks only two days.


This is a very good point and one I missed.

Could try a deload week/fortnight.

Been doing this myself once every 3 months and found it very beneficial.


----------



## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

FelonE said:


> So you're prepared to say you were wrong if I'm not?


Tell you what, take a pic now and post it, then take a pic in the same light 8 weeks after you have stopped your course.


----------



## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

banzi said:


> Tell you what, take a pic now and post it, then take a pic in the same light 8 weeks after you have stopped your course.


Just about to take the dog out but I will when I get back. If you're right then I'll admit you knew my body better than me lol.


----------



## Jammy Dodger (Nov 2, 2014)

FelonE said:


> Just about to take the dog out but I will when I get back. If you're right then I'll admit you knew my body better than me lol.


None of this funny business though mate. If we are truly to judge your new god like physique we need either naked pics, or at the very least you to be posing in your ladies thong.


----------



## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

sammym said:


> None of this funny business though mate. If we are truly to judge your new god like physique we need either naked pics, or at the very least you to be posing in your ladies thong.


Lol you asked for it........


----------



## Nuts (Aug 19, 2013)

FelonE said:


> I don't want my metabolism raging lol it already is,that's why I find it hard to put weight on.


Ah but then you can eat more!


----------



## Newperson (Dec 12, 2014)

What are your current lifts at?


----------



## Sambuca (Jul 25, 2012)

FelonE said:


> Lol That's the first thing I tell other people too but I'm already force feeding myself to the point I'm not hungry at all next meal time and waking up feeling full still,feeling sick and hot when I go to bed.


Add eq or ghrp 6, use ravenous tablets and digestive enzymes. Smash anything U can down to eat. Seriously u just go to do it if u want to keep gaining.

Not sure if my old log is about still but my daily food was hilarious!!


----------



## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

Newperson said:


> What are your current lifts at?


140kg squat 110kg bench


----------



## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

Sambuca said:


> Add eq or ghrp 6, use ravenous tablets and digestive enzymes. Smash anything U can down to eat. Seriously u just go to do it if u want to keep gaining.
> 
> Not sure if my old log is about still but my daily food was hilarious!!


I have started to nail anything for the extra cals lol. I'm eating 6000 clean and whatever else I can ram in,fvcking hard work though haha. I much prefer cutting to bulking, not a big eater naturally.


----------



## Sambuca (Jul 25, 2012)

FelonE said:


> I have started to nail anything for the extra cals lol. I'm eating 6000 clean and whatever else I can ram in,fvcking hard work though haha. I much prefer cutting to bulking, not a big eater naturally.


Same but if u can break that food level consumption then you'll never be the same again. :lol:


----------



## PHMG (Jun 15, 2010)

I switch training style for a month or so as well.

Switch to a volume program (in terms of total sets, not high reps). Complete change in muscle stimulus and then switch back to your previous training style.


----------



## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

FelonE said:


> Just about to take the dog out but I will when I get back. If you're right then I'll admit you knew my body better than me lol.


If it is your first course then you are as much in the dark as me as to how you are going to respond.


----------



## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

View attachment 163384
Nearly 8 weeks ago(pre cycle) My first day back after 3 months off.

View attachment 163385
Me now.22lbs up.

Not tensed in 2nd pic.


----------



## Jammy Dodger (Nov 2, 2014)

Chest and shoulders have exploded a bit mate. If i were you I'd keep bulking for a bit though. Still got loads of room before you are too fat to keep going.

And IF you have no bad sides acne hair loss etc... Bump up the test to see what happens. I am just for a laugh. You have shut yourself down anyway - so you may as well.


----------



## Newperson (Dec 12, 2014)

FelonE said:


> View attachment 163384
> Nearly 8 weeks ago(pre cycle) My first day back after 3 months off.
> 
> View attachment 163385
> ...


You look better in the first pic.

Judging by your pics and by your strength (squat 140kg Bench 110kg), you shouldn't be using steroids.

You need to train much harder.


----------



## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

Newperson said:


> You look better in the first pic.
> 
> Judging by your pics and by your strength (squat 140kg Bench 110kg), you shouldn't be using steroids.
> 
> You need to train much harder.



View attachment 163386


This was me natty before I had 3 months off. I disagree. I don't look as good now because I've been back training 7 and a bit weeks and I'm bulking.


----------



## Abc987 (Sep 26, 2013)

FelonE said:


> I'm up 22lbs but some of that will be where I started eating properly again after stopping training/water/fat etc. I'm eating over 6000 cals and can't physically eat much more, feeling fat and bloated all the time. Strength is still going up nicely.
> 
> I'm on 500mg of Sphinx Test E.


I had the exact same thing happen to me mate. Added anavar add the gains started coming again so I extended the cycle ;-)


----------



## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

Abc987 said:


> I had the exact same thing happen to me mate. Added anavar add the gains started coming again so I extended the cycle ;-)


That's why I'm thinking winny. I'm not too bothered about being much bigger atm cos I'm gonna cut down to about 14 stone anyway. Just don't wanna get to the end of cycle and realise Banzai was right lol and I gained 2lbs lbm.


----------



## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

PHMG said:


> I switch training style for a month or so as well.
> 
> Switch to a volume program (in terms of total sets, not high reps). Complete change in muscle stimulus and then switch back to your previous training style.


I've just switched from volume to low volume heavier weight.


----------



## Newperson (Dec 12, 2014)

FelonE said:


> View attachment 163386
> 
> 
> This was me natty before I had 3 months off. I disagree. I don't look as good now because I've been back training 7 and a bit weeks and I'm bulking.


Why didn't you get back to this before jumping on the gear?

If you got back to this first and got your main lifts up more, if you then jumped on the gear you would have got more "bang for your buck"

But you haven't so I guess it don't matter lol

6000 calories is a lot! You're gonna have to train like a mad man in order to those calories to good use


----------



## MRSTRONG (Apr 18, 2009)

putting 22lbs on in 8 weeks is good , if i did that every cycle/blast i`d be 30+ stone , i`d like to gain 10 lbs a cycle tbh


----------



## Jammy Dodger (Nov 2, 2014)

MRSTRONG said:


> putting 22lbs on in 8 weeks is good , if i did that every cycle/blast i`d be 30+ stone , i`d like to gain 10 lbs a cycle tbh


Yes but that 10lb is only water mate. Once you are off cycle you will be lucky to keep 0.5lb of it.


----------



## MRSTRONG (Apr 18, 2009)

sammym said:


> Yes but that 10lb is only water mate. Once you are off cycle you will be lucky to keep 0.5lb of it.


i meant for gear legitimacy , actual muscle gained would be in the region of 1-2lb per month iirc


----------



## Sebbek (Apr 25, 2013)

Newperson said:


> You look better in the first pic.
> 
> Judging by your pics and by your strength (squat 140kg Bench 110kg), you shouldn't be using steroids.
> 
> You need to train much harder.


Sorry mate but I was right

There is not enough mass going on mate

Leave cutting for later just bulk

(By the way fake alarm back home now)


----------



## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

Newperson said:


> Why didn't you get back to this before jumping on the gear?
> 
> If you got back to this first and got your main lifts up more, if you then jumped on the gear you would have got more "bang for your buck"
> 
> ...


Impatience mate lol. After I cut I should be back there. I looked horrible on my bulk before that cut too haha.


----------



## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

MRSTRONG said:


> putting 22lbs on in 8 weeks is good , if i did that every cycle/blast i`d be 30+ stone , i`d like to gain 10 lbs a cycle tbh


I can't really account the whole 22lbs for this cycle though as when I stopped training I hardly ate, when I started eating properly I filled out again.


----------



## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

Sebbek said:


> Sorry mate but I was right
> 
> There is not enough mass going on mate
> 
> ...


I have mass but it never shows in pics. I'm 15 stone 8lbs but you wouldn't think so by my pics. I always look a lot smaller.


----------



## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

OK felon, heres my advice

Come off everything now and clean out your system

Then you need to get down to 10% bf as a maximum and train natty and try and get your original natty muscle back

Its going to be hard because you really jumped on the gear way too early after your layoff.

Everything you have gained up to now you will lose guaranteed.

If you continue on your current path you will end up being a permabulker for the rest of your life.


----------



## Jammy Dodger (Nov 2, 2014)

FelonE said:


> I have mass but it never shows in pics. I'm 15 stone 8lbs but you wouldn't think so by my pics. I always look a lot smaller.


Already said mate - naked picture. You'd look massive in the context of your tiny little pecker.


----------



## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

banzi said:


> OK felon, heres my advice
> 
> Come off everything now and clean out your system
> 
> ...


Thanks for the advice........I'll gratefully decline. Be ready for the after cut pics big man lol.


----------



## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

sammym said:


> Already said mate - naked picture. You'd look massive in the context of your tiny little pecker.


Hold on let me turn the heating off lol.


----------



## Jammy Dodger (Nov 2, 2014)

Keep up the good work Felon. You are a funny guy. Show them they are wrong when you post after pics up ripped to shreds. Have any of them seem the before Bostin Lloyd photos... Not a great example but he wasn't an ideal and did pretty well in a year. Or even (going to hate myself for saying this) Zyzz - he wasn't exactly massive with epic numbers in his lifts when he jumped on the gear.


----------



## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

sammym said:


> Keep up the good work Felon. You are a funny guy. Show them they are wrong when you post after pics up ripped to shreds. Have any of them seem the before Bostin Lloyd photos... Not a great example but he wasn't an ideal and did pretty well in a year. Or even (going to hate myself for saying this) Zyzz - he wasn't exactly massive with epic numbers in his lifts when he jumped on the gear.


Thank you mate I appreciate it. I love it so will give it everything I have all the time.


----------



## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

sammym said:


> Keep up the good work Felon. You are a funny guy. Show them they are wrong when you post after pics up ripped to shreds. *Have any of them seem the before Bostin Lloyd photos... Not a great example but he wasn't an ideal and did pretty well in a year.* Or even (going to hate myself for saying this) Zyzz - he wasn't exactly massive with epic numbers in his lifts when he jumped on the gear.


Yes, he did, it was all steroid bloat and he ended up back where he started when he came off.

13gms a week FFS and to lose it all in 3 months.


----------



## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

FelonE said:


> Thanks for the advice........I'll gratefully decline. Be ready for the after cut pics big man lol.


When are you thinking of cutting?


----------



## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

banzi said:


> When are you thinking of cutting?


In 2 and a half weeks. Cutting to 10 percent, then I'll see where I'm at mate


----------



## NoGutsNoGloryy (Jan 7, 2013)

Test alone is pretty weak imo and should only be used as a base and to prevent certain side effects.


----------



## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

NoGutsNoGloryy said:


> Test alone is pretty weak imo and should only be used as a base and to prevent certain side effects.


It hasn't been weak for me.


----------



## zak007 (Nov 12, 2011)

NoGutsNoGloryy said:


> Test alone is pretty weak imo and should only be used as a base and to prevent certain side effects.


lmao bullsh1t.


----------



## zak007 (Nov 12, 2011)

at op

your gear is not the problem here if you have gained 22lb so far and 40kg on your squat

it is your diet. the bigger you get the more you need to eat simple concept......

Some of the advice given in the first few pages didn't read the rest is laughable.

You should gain up until week 10/11 which is where I find the peak slightly drops and then come off at week 12 or even do a 4 week oral which youll run up until the test clears out your system


----------



## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

zak007 said:


> at op
> 
> your gear is not the problem here if you have gained 22lb so far and 40kg on your squat
> 
> ...


I believe it's the food too. I've progressively upped my calories as I've gained weight but I physically can't eat anymore atm. I'm staying on until the 10th week and then ramping down cals in to a cut.


----------



## zak007 (Nov 12, 2011)

FelonE said:


> I believe it's the food too. I've progressively upped my calories as I've gained weight but I physically can't eat anymore atm. I'm staying on until the 10th week and then ramping down cals in to a cut.


yeh I get the same where I can't eat anymore I do a 4-6 week cut and then start again

finishing with an oral would be good suggestion as well as doing a cut, don't cut through pct though you'll regret it.


----------



## Abc987 (Sep 26, 2013)

FelonE said:


> That's why I'm thinking winny. I'm not too bothered about being much bigger atm cos I'm gonna cut down to about 14 stone anyway. Just don't wanna get to the end of cycle and realise Banzai was right lol and I gained 2lbs lbm.


You'll be sweet mate. I've only just got home and haven't/can't be bothered to read the rest of the thread but from my experience the gains on just test e slowed stopped at about week 8-9. I added another compound and they started again.

From your pics you don't look like you've added fat so don't worry to much.


----------



## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

TommyBananas said:


> this forum does have a habit of its posters making the dumbest posts ever, but this, has to be the single dumbest thing i have heard in a long time


And it hasn't come from me from once lol phew.


----------



## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

zak007 said:


> yeh I get the same where I can't eat anymore I do a 4-6 week cut and then start again
> 
> finishing with an oral would be good suggestion as well as doing a cut, don't cut through pct though you'll regret it.


Yeah def won't be cutting through pct,prob up the calories a bit and train my ass off.


----------



## NoGutsNoGloryy (Jan 7, 2013)

FelonE said:


> I believe it's the food too. I've progressively upped my calories as I've gained weight but I physically can't eat anymore atm. I'm staying on until the 10th week and then ramping down cals in to a cut.


Dude you're on 6k calories you should be gaining on a daily basis, mainly fat, probably, at that range of calories.



TommyBananas said:


> this forum does have a habit of its posters making the dumbest posts ever, but this, has to be the single dumbest thing i have heard in a long time


As I said my OPINION and i'm sure others will agree, so quit being so fvcking arrogant. What I meant is that going into the high dose range is useless and the higher you go only a small percentage of gains will increase, for example jumping from 500mg to 1,000mg will not double your gains, so it's best to use multiple compounds.


----------



## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

NoGutsNoGloryy said:


> Dude you're on 6k calories you should be gaining on a daily basis, mainly fat, probably, at that range of calories.
> 
> As I said my OPINION and i'm sure others will agree, so quit being so fvcking arrogant. What I meant is that going into the high dose range is useless and the higher you go only a small percentage of gains will increase, for example jumping from 500mg to 1,000mg will not double your gains, so it's best to use multiple compounds.


Because one person gets fat on X amount of calories doesn't mean someone else is. The fact I'm not gaining weight would suggest I'm not gaining fat. I probably cut ona lot if people's bulk cals.


----------



## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

FelonE said:


> In 2 and a half weeks. Cutting to 10 percent, then I'll see where I'm at mate


You staying on or coming off?


----------



## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

banzi said:


> You staying on or coming off?


Staying on.


----------



## Newperson (Dec 12, 2014)

I really can't see how you would need 6,000 calories

Ronnie Coleman ate about that much and he was 300 hundred pounds of muscle


----------



## Mingster (Mar 25, 2011)

22lbs is a huge cycle gain. You should be happy with that mate. I've never added that much mass on any cycle, even my first.

IMO 100% of people over-estimate their lean gains during a cycle.


----------



## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

Newperson said:


> I really can't see how you would need 6,000 calories
> 
> Ronnie Coleman ate about that much and he was 300 hundred pounds of muscle


That may be the case but as the title of the thread says I'm not gaining on 6000 so I obviously need more than that and also I think he's on more than 500mg test a week lol


----------



## Newperson (Dec 12, 2014)

FelonE said:


> That may be the case but as the title of the thread says I'm not gaining on 6000 so I obviously need more than that.


Maybe you got worms lol

How tall are you?


----------



## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

Mingster said:


> 22lbs is a huge cycle gain. You should be happy with that mate. I've never added that much mass on any cycle, even my first.
> 
> IMO 100% of people over-estimate their lean gains during a cycle.


I'm very happy with it a I just didn't know if it was the norm to stop gaining this far in.


----------



## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

Mingster said:


> 22lbs is a huge cycle gain. You should be happy with that mate. I've never added that much mass on any cycle, even my first.
> 
> *IMO 100% of people over-estimate their lean gains during a cycle*.


Agreed.


----------



## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

Newperson said:


> Maybe you got worms lol
> 
> How tall are you?


They're fvcking hungry ones if I have lol

5ft 11mate.


----------



## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

View attachment 163393


If you have gained 22lbs then I am really struggling to see where its gone apart from your waist and no doubt your low back.

You could really lose 30lbs there to be in shape in the before pic


----------



## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

Mingster said:


> 22lbs is a huge cycle gain. You should be happy with that mate. I've never added that much mass on any cycle, even my first.
> 
> IMO 100% of people over-estimate their lean gains during a cycle.


In your opinion how much lbm could you gain in a 10week cycle at 500mg?


----------



## Huntingground (Jan 10, 2010)

Mingster said:


> 22lbs is a huge cycle gain. You should be happy with that mate. I've never added that much mass on any cycle, even my first.
> 
> IMO 100% of people over-estimate their lean gains during a cycle.


as usual, Ming is spot on, 22lbs, FFS, that is great. Crack on.


----------



## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

People can gain 30lb in two days post contest

Just saying.


----------



## Huntingground (Jan 10, 2010)

banzi said:


> View attachment 163393
> 
> 
> If you have gained 22lbs then I am really struggling to see where its gone apart from your waist and no doubt your low back.
> ...


Banzi throwing his ideas about again. Listen, I don't respect your opinion, I lift heavy, you don't.


----------



## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

banzi said:


> View attachment 163393
> 
> 
> If you have gained 22lbs then I am really struggling to see where its gone apart from your waist and no doubt your low back.
> ...


I have gained 22lbs. There's no if about it. Like I said it's hard to see in the pics but in real life I'm quite noticeably bigger. My tops are a lot tighter round the shoulders and chest area and legs sre bigget too. A lot of people have said how big I've got compared to how I was. Can't scratch my back properly lol

Pics can be deceiving. In that pic where I was quite lean as a natty I was 13 stone 3. I'm 15stone 8 now so when I cut again I want to be more than 13.3 at same bf. Also first pic is tensed 2nd is not, abs are more there in 2nd pic on 6000 cals.


----------



## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

Huntingground said:


> Banzi throwing his ideas about again. Listen, I don't respect your opinion, I lift heavy, you don't.


I dont lift heavy and look better than you, and take a tenth of what you take.

Maybe you should respect my opinion.


----------



## Huntingground (Jan 10, 2010)

banzi said:


> I dont lift heavy and look better than you, and take a tenth of what you take.
> 
> Maybe you should respect my opinion.


You lift like a girl. What does gear have to do with anything?

Why would I respect a maggot?


----------



## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

FelonE said:


> I have gained 22lbs. There's no if about it. Like I said it's hard to see in the pics but in real life I'm quite noticeably bigger. My tops are a lot tighter round the shoulders and chest area and legs sre bigget too. A lot of people have said how big I've got compared to how I was. Can't scratch my back properly lol
> 
> Pics can be deceiving. In that pic where I was quite lean as a natty I was 13 stone 3. I'm 15stone 8 now so when I cut again I want to be more than 13.3 at same bf. Also first pic is tensed 2nd is not, abs are more there in 2nd pic on 6000 cals.


You look better natty than you do on gear, you should have got your physique back natty after the layoff rather than jumping straight on a course.


----------



## Huntingground (Jan 10, 2010)

banzi said:


> I dont lift heavy and look better than you, and take a tenth of what you take.
> 
> Maybe you should respect my opinion.


Saturday.


----------



## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

banzi said:


> You look better natty than you do on gear, you should have got your physique back natty after the layoff rather than jumping straight on a course.


I hear what you're saying

It took me 2yrs to get where I natty and was only off 3 months so don't think I've lost it all. They weren't steroid gains. I'm using this cycle to help get me back where I was.


----------



## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

Huntingground said:


> You lift like a girl. What does gear have to do with anything?
> 
> Why would I respect a maggot?


A maggot 

So what if I lift light and use rubber bands, I can make gains training smart rather than heaving huge poundages about, you are on a one way ticket to a serious injury at your age.

You should be winding down a bit and thinking about longevity.

Why would you respect me, oh I dont know, I can maintain a great looking physique year round on trt doses.

Anyway, we will see how things pan out on the 5th Jan :thumbup1:


----------



## Huntingground (Jan 10, 2010)

banzi said:


> A maggot
> 
> So what if I lift light and use rubber bands, I can make gains training smart rather than heaving huge poundages about, you are on a one way ticket to a serious injury at your age.
> 
> ...


Good response and apologies about being short.


----------



## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

Huntingground said:


> Good response and apologies about being short.


Its all good, I enjoy the banter.


----------



## Mingster (Mar 25, 2011)

FelonE said:


> In your opinion how much lbm could you gain in a 10week cycle at 500mg?


It will obviously vary from individual to individual but, speaking for myself, in the past I would be overjoyed to gain 8lb of lbm on the cycle you describe.

Lets say a guy starts cycling at a reasonably lean 180lbs. He runs 3 cycles a year. That's 24lbs of lean body mass a year. At that rate he could be world rated in 3 years. I don't see this happening very often tbh...


----------



## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

Mingster said:


> It will obviously vary from individual to individual but, speaking for myself, in the past I would be overjoyed to gain 8lb of lbm on the cycle you describe.
> 
> Lets say a guy starts cycling at a reasonably lean 180lbs. He runs 3 cycles a year. That's 24lbs of lean body mass a year. At that rate he could be world rated in 3 years. I don't see this happening very often tbh...


If I've gained 8lbs of muscle I'll be very happy. I'm under no illusion I'm carrying a lot of water and fat. Really looking forward to the cut to see where I am.


----------



## mrwright (Oct 22, 2013)

banzi said:


> View attachment 163393
> 
> 
> If you have gained 22lbs then I am really struggling to see where its gone apart from your waist and no doubt your low back.
> ...


You do know the left pic is the after right?

He has better abs without tensing than he did tensing so highly unlikely he's added much if any fat


----------



## NoGutsNoGloryy (Jan 7, 2013)

FelonE said:


> Because one person gets fat on X amount of calories doesn't mean someone else is. The fact I'm not gaining weight would suggest I'm not gaining fat. I probably cut ona lot if people's bulk cals.


6k calories is a lot to maintain weight even for the genetically gifted, are you tracking calories?


----------



## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

NoGutsNoGloryy said:


> 6k calories is a lot to maintain weight even for the genetically gifted, are you tracking calories?


Every single bloody one mate.


----------



## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

mrwright said:



> You do know the left pic is the after right?
> 
> He has better abs without tensing than he did tensing so highly unlikely he's added much if any fat


Living up to your name Mr lol


----------



## NoGutsNoGloryy (Jan 7, 2013)

FelonE said:


> Every single bloody one mate.


Well I guess you're one of those select few lol.


----------



## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

NoGutsNoGloryy said:


> Well I guess you're one of those select few lol.


Always have from day one.


----------



## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

mrwright said:


> You do know the left pic is the after right?
> 
> He has better abs without tensing than he did tensing so highly unlikely he's added much if any fat


Of course, hes way fatter in the after pic.

In the before pic he needs to lose 25-30lbs to be ripped guy should have cut, not bulked.


----------



## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

NoGutsNoGloryy said:


> 6k calories is a lot to maintain weight even for the genetically gifted, are you tracking calories?


Hes getting fatter but doesnt want to admit it.


----------



## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

Mingster said:


> It will obviously vary from individual to individual but, speaking for myself, in the past I would be overjoyed to gain 8lb of lbm on the cycle you describe.
> 
> Lets say a guy starts cycling at a reasonably lean 180lbs. He runs 3 cycles a year. That's 24lbs of lean body mass a year. At that rate he could be world rated in 3 years. I don't see this happening very often tbh...


I started training at 140lb, I was shredded, always had abs

I competed at 200lb in 96, thats a 60lb gain.

It took me 10 years, and 18 years later Im the same weight when I get in similar condition.


----------



## Mingster (Mar 25, 2011)

banzi said:


> I started training at 140lb, I was shredded, always had abs
> 
> I competed at 200lb in 96, thats a 60lb gain.
> 
> It took me 10 years, and 18 years later Im the same weight when I get in similar condition.


The people who make large weight gains during a cycle are, more often than not, the people who shrink down dramatically post cycle. The guys who put 4, 5, or 6lbs on cycle after cycle are the ones who make progressive improvements to their physique. Just ime...


----------



## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

banzi said:


> Hes getting fatter but doesnt want to admit it.


I'd have no problem admitting it if it was true. The fact my abs are starting to show tells me that it's not the case.


----------



## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

Mingster said:


> The people who make large weight gains during a cycle are, more often than not, the people who shrink down dramatically post cycle. The guys who put 4, 5, or 6lbs on cycle after cycle are the ones who make progressive improvements to their physique. Just ime...


Agreed, it tends to be water bloat, fat and glycogen retention, once the drugs are out the system they deflate.

I think everyone knows the 3 month summer cycle guys who come in the gym and blow up like balloons, TBH some of them have a fantastic response to gear, in six weeks they look better than guys who have been training for years.

All goes south when they come off though.


----------



## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

FelonE said:


> I'd have no problem admitting it if it was true. The fact my abs are starting to show tells me that it's not the case.


Its the fact that you are retaining glycogen in the muscle so they inflate and show more.

I dont know why I have to keep telling you this.

Just wait until you cut or come off.


----------



## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

banzi said:


> Agreed, it tends to be water bloat, fat and glycogen retention, once the drugs are out the system they deflate.
> 
> I think everyone knows the 3 month summer cycle guys who come in the gym and blow up like balloons, TBH some of them have a fantastic response to gear, in six weeks they look better than guys who have been training for years.
> 
> All goes south when they come off though.


Obviously some conflicting opinions. Only way I'll know is after pct so I'll wait til then.


----------



## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

banzi said:


> Its the fact that you are retaining glycogen in the muscle so they inflate and show more.
> 
> I dont know why I have to keep telling you this.
> 
> Just wait until you cut or come off.


You've never had to tell me this. That's why I said that all this 22lbs hasn't come from this cycle. I filled out quick starting to eat properly again. Please don't patronise me I'm not stupid.


----------



## SelflessSelfie (May 25, 2014)

Not everyone loses tons of weight post cycle. I was up 26lbs on my first cycle due to dbol water bloat. Switched to a cut for the latter half and did a reverse diet. I was 14lbs up when it came to pct. Two weeks after pct I had only dropped 1lb and looked a bit leaner. Sure I lost the muscle hardness etc but weight remained stable.

@FelonE I feel for you man, I feel like I'm a right lucky bastard being able to bulk on 2500 calories, dunno how you manage to eat so much mate.


----------



## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

SelflessSelfie said:


> Not everyone loses tons of weight post cycle. I was up 26lbs on my first cycle due to dbol water bloat. Switched to a cut for the latter half and did a reverse diet. I was 14lbs up when it came to pct. Two weeks after pct I had only dropped 1lb and looked a bit leaner. Sure I lost the muscle hardness etc but weight remained stable.
> 
> @FelonE I feel for you man, I feel like I'm a right lucky bastard being able to bulk on 2500 calories, dunno how you manage to eat so much mate.


It's horrible mate. Makes me laugh when people say I can't be really be eating that much or I must getting fat. I wish I didn't have to eat this and I'm not getting fat, that's the problem. My metabolism is through the roof natty but this is taking the p1ss lol.


----------



## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

dann19900 said:


>


Guy is currently 240lbs, looks about 140lbs in that before pic in 2006, so its taken him 8 years to gain 100lbs

Now, got any links to a 80lb gain in one year

Oh, and if he gets clean he will likely drop down to 200lbs.


----------



## Huntingground (Jan 10, 2010)

banzi said:


> Guy is currently 240lbs, looks about 140lbs in that before pic in 2006, so its taken him 8 years to gain 100lbs
> 
> Now, got any links to a 80lb gain in one year
> 
> Oh, and if he gets clean he will likely drop down to 200lbs.


Depends what he is training for. Not everybody wants to be a pencil neck like you.


----------



## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

Huntingground said:


> Depends what he is training for. Not everybody wants to be a pencil neck like you.


I think he wants to compete in bodybuilding.

So if hes 240 now its likely he will have to drop at least 30lb from his current shape to be stage ready.

View attachment 163403


So now we are now down to 210lb after eight years, now get clean, wow, maybe a 30lb gain in total.


----------



## latblaster (Oct 26, 2013)

And @banzi continues to fight the whole world.

Try being personable for a change...ok?

Enjoy your day tomorrow.


----------



## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

latblaster said:


> And @banzi continues to fight the whole world.
> 
> Try being personable for a change...ok?
> 
> Enjoy your day tomorrow.


Im full of a cold and my chest is killing me, coughing up cack.

Forgive the curtness


----------



## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

banzi said:


> Im full of a cold and my chest is killing me, coughing up cack.
> 
> Forgive the curtness


I suppose we can all sit and speculate. Just see what happens.


----------



## EpicSquats (Mar 29, 2014)

Be like @banzi guys. According to him, he doesn't lift weights, he uses weights to stimulate the muscle, lol.


----------



## Huntingground (Jan 10, 2010)

30 years of training and being a maggot.


----------



## josephbloggs (Sep 29, 2013)

i think what people need to realise is that everyone has different goals and there is always more than one method to achieve said goals. some people probably are just interested in going to the gym and lifting as much weight for a single or double as they can and get a buzz out of that, and don't give a sht whether to the outside world they just look like a fat geezer with a beer belly or whatever. they're not bothered about the aesthetic.

other people may want to stay lean all year round , may not be too bothered about about how much they can lift and may even be able to maintain a good physique without lifting massive weights. each to their own i say. would be boring if everyone was aiming for and doing the same thing.


----------



## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

josephbloggs said:


> i think what people need to realise is that everyone has different goals and there is always more than one method to achieve said goals. some people probably are just interested in going to the gym and lifting as much weight for a single or double as they can and get a buzz out of that, and don't give a sht whether to the outside world they just look like a fat geezer with a beer belly or whatever. they're not bothered about the aesthetic.
> 
> other people may want to stay lean all year round , may not be too bothered about about how much they can lift and may even be able to maintain a good physique without lifting massive weights. each to their own i say. would be boring if everyone was aiming for and doing the same thing.


Well said. People can really only talk about what works for them too. Not the same for everyone


----------



## UkWardy (Mar 30, 2014)

Your shoulders definitely looking bigger @FelonE looking good mate considering you dropped training for a while. Still look better than me you cnut


----------



## NoGutsNoGloryy (Jan 7, 2013)

EpicSquats said:


> Be like @banzi guys. According to him, he doesn't lift weights, he uses weights to stimulate the muscle, lol.


He doesn't lift because he's checking out the women, hoping to stimulate that very small muscle he has in the hope it will get bigger. Sorry Banzi, it doesn't work that way.


----------



## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

UkWardy said:


> Your shoulders definitely looking bigger @FelonE looking good mate considering you dropped training for a while. Still look better than me you cnut


I don't look better than you mate lol.


----------



## UkWardy (Mar 30, 2014)

FelonE said:


> I don't look better than you mate lol.


You do lol, my avi is a filtered lie :lol:


----------



## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

UkWardy said:


> You do lol, my avi is a filtered lie :lol:


So's my pic lol


----------



## PHMG (Jun 15, 2010)

FelonE said:


> I used to train like a maniac,lots of sets/drop sets/paused sets etc. Couldn't hold my phone to my ear on the way home. I love that style but people on here were saying it's too much.


Not all people......


----------



## PHMG (Jun 15, 2010)

People knocking banzi on here. shame you all fail to spot someone who actually knows what he's talking about.

People spouting about 80lb first cycle gain. What the actual f.uck.

I mean even 20lb lbm gain would be insane. I'd be over the moon for anything in the range of 5-10lb.


----------



## Galaxy (Aug 1, 2011)

PHMG said:


> People knocking banzi on here. shame you all fail to spot someone who actually knows what he's talking about.
> 
> People spouting about 80lb first cycle gain. What the actual f.uck.
> 
> I mean even 20lb lbm gain would be insane. I'd be over the moon for anything in the range of 5-10lb.


Agreed, banzi does talk some sh1t at times but for the most part he makes very good points.


----------



## PHMG (Jun 15, 2010)

Galaxy said:


> Agreed, banzi does talk some sh1t at times but for the most part he makes very good points.


Hes a very good wind up, and is very blunt but doesn't talk crap thats for sure.


----------



## Galaxy (Aug 1, 2011)

PHMG said:


> Hes a very good wind up, and is very blunt but doesn't talk crap thats for sure.


Yep. Few good threads on tm when he wasn't shot down straight off!!


----------



## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

NoGutsNoGloryy said:


> He doesn't lift because he's checking out the women, hoping to stimulate that very small muscle he has in the hope it will get bigger. Sorry Banzi, it doesn't work that way.


Women?

How do you know its women?


----------



## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

Im filling up guys.

Must be Christmas. :innocent:


----------



## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

banzi said:


> Im filling up guys.
> 
> Must be Christmas. :innocent:


Lol. Merry Xmas


----------



## b0t13 (Jan 3, 2013)

I also agree with some of banzi's posts, I tried making a similar point on another thread but people went retard mode,

For example ur abs are showing now untensed giving the illusion of being leaner, but when u come off they go soft and u look fatter again, this is why I've questioned people who said they've lost BF when they haven't it's just the muscle hardness giving a leaner look


----------



## Cronus (Jun 5, 2012)

b0t13 said:


> I also agree with some of banzi's posts, I tried making a similar point on another thread but people went retard mode,
> 
> For example ur abs are showing now untensed giving the illusion of being leaner, but when u come off they go soft and u look fatter again, this is why I've questioned people who said they've lost BF when they haven't it's just the muscle hardness giving a leaner look


Unless you're on something like Tren or Winny, you lose "fullness" not hardness, at least in my exp and even then with it's only subtle


----------



## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

b0t13 said:


> I also agree with some of banzi's posts, I tried making a similar point on another thread but people went retard mode,
> 
> For example ur abs are showing now untensed giving the illusion of being leaner, but when u come off they go soft and u look fatter again, this is why I've questioned people who said they've lost BF when they haven't it's just the muscle hardness giving a leaner look


But how do you know I'm not leaner? Different people react to things in different ways. Some people saying I must of got really fat on 6000 calories just because they would of. Different people/different metabolisms.


----------



## Sebbek (Apr 25, 2013)

Cronus said:


> Unless you're on something like Tren or Winny, you lose "fullness" not hardness, at least in my exp and even then with it's only subtle


Fullness is down to carbs mate


----------



## Dazza (Aug 7, 2010)

MrM said:


> Fair play, if I'm honest I keep sticking at 102 kg - when I eat more I just sweat like a furnace in bed. I'd be interested to hear how you push past your stall. It was suggested that I add 1/2 cup of sugar and a tin of coconut milk to each shake. But it was nasty and gave me the runs. Fcuk that.


Course it will, it's why people recommend no more than 10g of mct's otherwise your arse will flow like niagra falls.

Lots of nuts, avocado, evoo just any decent fat, hell i have bulletproof coffee every morning and im cutting.

It's very easy to pack in the calories, you just need to find what works best.

As for muscle gains post cycle, ime you'd be lucky to keep 14lb at best.


----------



## Cronus (Jun 5, 2012)

Sebbek said:


> Fullness is down to carbs mate


You ever used an AAS like Superdrol? Eat 400-600g of carbs on cycle, then carry on off cycle - let me know afterwards if you are still looking as full?

Mostly everything I look to post is from personal exp or sometimes studies. I'm no parrot e.g. "all var on market is 90% winny" when wedinos showed that even the poorest reputable labs such as BSI had legit var.


----------



## BaronSamedii (Aug 29, 2014)

I co sign everything banzi has said in here


----------



## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

I haven't even eaten 600 calories in the last 2 days, I look way fatter than I did before I got sick.

Lack of glycogen in the muscle.

I should be back up to par in about a week, feel a bit better today but my ****ing backs in spasm now(disc issues), I can hardly walk, 2 myolgin (muscle relaxant)and 1 tramadol up to now, still struggling.


----------



## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

b0t13 said:


> I also agree with some of banzi's posts, I tried making a similar point on another thread but people went retard mode,
> 
> For example ur abs are showing now untensed giving the illusion of being leaner, but when u come off they go soft and u look fatter again, this is why I've questioned people who said they've lost BF when they haven't it's just the muscle hardness giving a leaner look


Some people dont like reality checks.

I have been around long enough and seen the results of dieting and drugs to know what Im looking at.

Heres how steroids work, no matter how many you take and how much you gain, after a year off you revert back to what you would have gained training natural.


----------



## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

banzi said:


> Some people dont like reality checks.
> 
> I have been around long enough and seen the results of dieting and drugs to know what Im looking at.
> 
> Heres how steroids work, no matter how many you take and how much you gain, after a year off you revert back to what you would have gained training natural.


Are you referring to me?


----------



## Abc987 (Sep 26, 2013)

banzi said:


> Some people dont like reality checks.
> 
> I have been around long enough and seen the results of dieting and drugs to know what Im looking at.
> 
> Heres how steroids work, no matter how many you take and how much you gain, after a year off you revert back to what you would have gained training natural.


But 9 times out of 10 people start gear before they're at there natural limit so will end up bigger and stronger. No?


----------



## Carllo (Feb 14, 2012)

Tis true

I reckon you'l either jump back on because your depressed when you come off or you'l go on trt

Imho


----------



## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

FelonE said:


> Are you referring to me?


No, it applies to everyone.


----------



## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

Abc987 said:


> But 9 times out of 10 people start gear before they're at there natural limit so will end up bigger and stronger. No?


While they are 'on' yes, you shrink back to natty levels when you come off

Steroids are a temporary drug.

If you took drugs for 10 years, a year after you stop using them you would be roughly at the same point you would have been training 10 years natty.


----------



## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

banzi said:


> No, it applies to everyone.


Do you cycle on stay on?


----------



## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

FelonE said:


> Do you cycle on stay on?


Stay on, sometimes as little as 250mgs every 2 weeks.

I add in other things depending on my goals at the time, normally holidays and such like.

May compete at the end of 2015, so will plan my blast around that.


----------



## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

banzi said:


> Stay on, sometimes as little as 250mgs every 2 weeks.
> 
> I add in other things depending on my goals at the time, normally holidays and such like.
> 
> May compete at the end of 2015, so will plan my blast around that.


Cool. Have you had any problems directly due to staying on?


----------



## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

FelonE said:


> Cool. Have you had any problems directly due to staying on?


I have high bp at the moment but its coming down

I used three compounds that are notorious for increasing red blood cell count.

My cholesterol is a high at the moment but thats in hand

Apart from that I have not had any health issues.

I could have had the same issues regardless of steroids though to be fair.


----------



## Jammy Dodger (Nov 2, 2014)

FelonE said:


> Cool. Have you had any problems directly due to staying on?


Have a look at another thread from earlier today about blasting cruising mate. Banzi gave me some really sound advice on there. Has made my mind up that I'll be doing that at the end of the blast. Might be something you are interested in.


----------



## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

banzi said:


> I have high bp at the moment but its coming down
> 
> I used three compounds that are notorious for increasing red blood cell count.
> 
> ...


True. I'm just curious. I'm pretty good with diet and training natty. Put on 3 stone in 2yrs and got leaner but this steroid business is all pretty new to me. That's why I said I understand about glycogen filling you out etc cos when I cut and dropped carbs I shrunk quite a bit and when I switched to a bulk I obviously filled out due to glycogen. Always trying to learn when it comes to the juice.


----------



## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

sammym said:


> Have a look at another thread from earlier today about blasting cruising mate. Banzi gave me some really sound advice on there. Has made my mind up that I'll be doing that at the end of the blast. Might be something you are interested in.


I will.


----------



## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

Problem with steroids is its a one way trip.

Once you have used your body and your mind are never really the same.

I have known guys who have trained natty for years and used a couple of cycles and ended up worse off than they were natty.


----------



## Smitch (Dec 29, 2008)

EpicSquats said:


> Be like @banzi guys. According to him, he doesn't lift weights, he uses weights to stimulate the muscle, lol.


But to be fair to Banzi he is a bodybuilder and if that's all it takes to build the muscle then that's what he does.

Have you seen pics of him? He's got himself bigger and in better shape than 99% of this board will ever achieve with a lot less drugs and lifting lighter weights.

I don't use his approach, but I'm not a body builder and I've never looked like him and probably never will.


----------



## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

banzi said:


> Problem with steroids is its a one way trip.
> 
> Once you have used your body and your mind are never really the same.
> 
> I have known guys who have trained natty for years and used a couple of cycles and ended up worse off than they were natty.


Yeah I think once you start that's it for you. I want to compete too so being natty isn't gonna cut it for me now. I'm 36 and don't want kids so from reading that b&c thread I think I know the direction I'm probably gonna go in.


----------



## EpicSquats (Mar 29, 2014)

Smitch said:


> But to be fair to Banzi he is a bodybuilder and if that's all it takes to build the muscle then that's what he does.
> 
> Have you seen pics of him? He's got himself bigger and in better shape than 99% of this board will ever achieve with a lot less drugs and lifting lighter weights.
> 
> I don't use his approach, but I'm not a body builder and I've never looked like him and probably never will.


Where are his photos? I also don't believe he never lifts weights. It sounds like he's saying that to sound like he's different and knows better than other people. So he never uses cable machines, free weights? Nah, he must do. If you make a weight go up and down, that's lifting it. I'm sure he does that.


----------



## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

EpicSquats said:


> Where are his photos? I also don't believe he never lifts weights. It sounds like he's saying that to sound like he's different and knows better than other people. So he never uses cable machines, free weights? Nah, he must do. If you make a weight go up and down, that's lifting it. I'm sure he does that.


I've seen pics of him. He's a lump mate.


----------



## EpicSquats (Mar 29, 2014)

FelonE said:


> I've seen pics of him. He's a lump mate.


Still not believing the whole 'I don't lift weights' thing though.


----------



## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

EpicSquats said:


> Still not believing the whole 'I don't lift weights' thing though.


I don't know mate.


----------



## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

EpicSquats said:


> Where are his photos? *I also don't believe he never lifts weights*. It sounds like he's saying that to sound like he's different and knows better than other people. So he never uses cable machines, free weights? Nah, he must do. If you make a weight go up and down, that's lifting it. I'm sure he does that.


That wasn't a literal quote.

Powerlifters lift weights, as a bodybuilder you should be using the weight to build the muscle, in fact you should be trying to put as much stress on the muscle as you can with as small a weight as you can.

It makes for longevity.

View attachment 163453


----------



## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

banzi said:


> That wasn't a literal quote.
> 
> Powerlifters lift weights, as a bodybuilder you should be using the weight to build the muscle, in fact you should be trying to put as much stress on the muscle as you can with as small a weight as you can.
> 
> ...


You're fatter than me lol

Obviously not srs


----------



## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

banzi said:


> That wasn't a literal quote.
> 
> Powerlifters lift weights, as a bodybuilder you should be using the weight to build the muscle, in fact you should be trying to put as much stress on the muscle as you can with as small a weight as you can.
> 
> ...


How would you do that then?


----------



## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

FelonE said:


> How would you do that then?


Slow down your reps mid set, fully contract the muscle and keep it under constant tension.

Get some power bands and do some 1 arm curls, the tension is on the muscle from start to finish

mind muscle connection is sometimes labelled a myth, it definitely isnt for me.


----------



## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

banzi said:


> Slow down your reps mid set, fully contract the muscle and keep it under constant tension.
> 
> Get some power bands and do some 1 arm curls, the tension is on the muscle from start to finish
> 
> mind muscle connection is sometimes labelled a myth, it definitely isnt for me.


I agree. I can go all out and try and lift as much as I can but I never feel it as much as when I do slow,lighter reps and really focus on the muscle I'm training. Mind and muscle connection is definitely not a myth for me either.


----------



## TommyBananas (Nov 23, 2014)

FelonE said:


> I agree. I can go all out and try and lift as much as I can but I never feel it as much as when I do slow,lighter reps and really focus on the muscle I'm training. Mind and muscle connection is definitely not a myth for me either.


About what you said earlier.

If you don't want kids, I'd strongly advisee at your age blasting and cruising tbh.

If you need any help with it, just drop me a pm. Can direct you to a lot of information from credible sources also.


----------



## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

TommyBananas said:


> About what you said earlier.
> 
> If you don't want kids, I'd strongly advisee at your age blasting and cruising tbh.
> 
> If you need any help with it, just drop me a pm. Can direct you to a lot of information from credible sources also.


Cheers mate. It was reading yours and others post that made me think it might suit me better.


----------



## Mingster (Mar 25, 2011)

I've always been a weightlifter. A few months back I consciously made the decision to...bodybuild, for want of a better term. Previously, I would lift the greatest weight possible, using strength and no little technique, from A to B. Now I move much lower weights, using a variety of training techniques, but always feeling the muscle I'm targeting working. They are two totally different things.

It's taken a while to get the hang of it but I'm getting there.


----------



## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

Mingster said:


> I've always been a weightlifter. A few months back I consciously made the decision to...bodybuild, for want of a better term. Previously, I would lift the greatest weight possible, using strength and no little technique, from A to B. Now I move much lower weights, using a variety of training techniques, but always feeling the muscle I'm targeting working. They are two totally different things.
> 
> It's taken a while to get the hang of it but I'm getting there.


I think it's easy to get caught up in trying to lift heavy but personally I'd like to compete so not to bothered if I lift the biggest number, just want to look good.


----------



## SelflessSelfie (May 25, 2014)

banzi said:


> Slow down your reps mid set, fully contract the muscle and keep it under constant tension.
> 
> Get some power bands and do some 1 arm curls, the tension is on the muscle from start to finish
> 
> mind muscle connection is sometimes labelled a myth, it definitely isnt for me.


This is an approach I have adopted recently to great effect. I am more interested in not injuring myself and building a respectable physique than I am how much weight I can push. Moving less weight now and getting better results for it so +reps.


----------



## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

SelflessSelfie said:


> This is an approach I have adopted recently to great effect. I am more interested in not injuring myself and building a respectable physique than I am how much weight I can push. Moving less weight now and getting better results for it so +reps.


Even if heavy weights give you an advantage in gaining muscle at some point that heavy weight may end up injuring you.

Its better to train a full year injury free than end up spending 3 months of the year recuperating.


----------



## Mingster (Mar 25, 2011)

FelonE said:


> I think it's easy to get caught up in trying to lift heavy but personally I'd like to compete so not to bothered if I lift the biggest number, just want to look good.


I've never cared about looking good. I had to lift heavy to compete, and I've always prefered competing where the judging is objective rather than subjective. However, longevity in lifting is my goal, so I've changed tack. I have no intention of competing in bodybuilding but I'm enjoying the training nonetheless.


----------



## SelflessSelfie (May 25, 2014)

banzi said:


> Even if heavy weights give you an advantage in gaining muscle at some point that heavy weight may end up injuring you.
> 
> Its better to train a full year injury free than end up spending 3 months of the year recuperating.


I agree completely, I have a two year old shoulder injury that still causes me pain and I have problems with my achilles tendons from leg pressing silly amounts. So it's just stupid for people to criticise others for lifting lighter when if you body build weight means nothing really.


----------



## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

Mingster said:


> I've never cared about looking good. I had to lift heavy to compete, and I've always prefered competing where the judging is objective rather than subjective. However, longevity in lifting is my goal, so I've changed tack. I have no intention of competing in bodybuilding but I'm enjoying the training nonetheless.


When I say look good I don't mean in an abs for the beach way. I would love to look like @banzai. He's got a good physique.


----------



## Mingster (Mar 25, 2011)

FelonE said:


> When I say look good I don't mean in an abs for the beach way. I would love to look like @banzai. He's got a good physique.


Yes he has, very good. A little low in body fat for my taste but we all have different tastes A lot of people forget that when arguing physiques on here - especially the Zyzz threads:whistling:


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## Smitch (Dec 29, 2008)

Mingster said:


> Yes he has, very good. A little low in body fat for my taste but we all have different tastes A lot of people forget that when arguing physiques on here - especially the Zyzz threads:whistling:


I think in the real world a good broad back with nice round delts and a bit of a chest is what makes you look like you lift weights.

I'd rather that than a set of abs that no one but the missus sees.


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## Mingster (Mar 25, 2011)

Smitch said:


> I think in the real world a good broad back with nice round delts and a bit of a chest is what makes you look like you lift weights.
> 
> I'd rather that than a set of abs that no one but the missus sees.


Both is best I can have decent abs at 15% but I intend to be around the 12% mark in the new year. Sub 10% is a big no-no to me.


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## bail (Mar 19, 2010)

banzi said:


> Even if heavy weights give you an advantage in gaining muscle at some point that heavy weight may end up injuring you.
> 
> Its better to train a full year injury free than end up spending 3 months of the year recuperating.


I agree with this heavy lifting has its place but injury free training that is consistant has more of a place in bbing

I've never seen Jay Cutler go very very heavy (in terms of his mass)

And Ronnie non stop heavy now Ronnie has had a double hip replacement along with other injuries

I'd rather be in jays shoes


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## bail (Mar 19, 2010)

FelonE said:


> I'm up 22lbs but some of that will be where I started eating properly again after stopping training/water/fat etc. I'm eating over 6000 cals and can't physically eat much more, feeling fat and bloated all the time. Strength is still going up nicely.
> 
> I'm on 500mg of Sphinx Test E.


Up gear

Shift macros around change food sources

Up training (vol and intensity)

When you think your body has had enough take it all back down


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## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

bail said:


> Up gear
> 
> Shift macros around change food sources
> 
> ...


I've decided to ramp my cals down over the next 2 weeks before I start cutting. I'm not eating more than 6000cals now, it's doing me in lol. Had 5800 today. Tomorrow will be 5600 etc.


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## bail (Mar 19, 2010)

FelonE said:


> I've decided to ramp my cals down over the next 2 weeks before I start cutting. I'm not eating more than 6000cals now, it's doing me in lol. Had 5800 today. Tomorrow will be 5600 etc.


Makes sense if you feel you gained enough might aswell start cutting

Test alone for that is great


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## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

bail said:


> Makes sense if you feel you gained enough might aswell start cutting
> 
> Test alone for that is great


Tbh I don't think I'm gonna get any more bulking now. Was thinking about adding an oral to help cut but I cut ok natty so just gonna stick with the test. Def lean bulking next time lol.


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## bail (Mar 19, 2010)

FelonE said:


> Tbh I don't think I'm gonna get any more bulking now. Was thinking about adding an oral to help cut but I cut ok natty so just gonna stick with the test. Def lean bulking next time lol.


Natty but with test??


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## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

bail said:


> Natty but with test??


Lol No I mean when I was natty and I cut I cut well so when I cut now I'll just cut on Test rather than add an oral.


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## jackedjackass (Nov 16, 2014)

FelonE said:


> I'm up 22lbs but some of that will be where I started eating properly again after stopping training/water/fat etc. I'm eating over 6000 cals and can't physically eat much more, feeling fat and bloated all the time. Strength is still going up nicely.
> 
> I'm on 500mg of Sphinx Test E.


6000 calories, holy fuuuuck, what makes you think you need these calories?

how much of your 22lbs "gains" do you think are muscle, how much is fat and how much is water?

What did you expect from a single test cycle?


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## jackedjackass (Nov 16, 2014)

Mingster said:


> 22lbs is a huge cycle gain. You should be happy with that mate. I've never added that much mass on any cycle, even my first.
> 
> IMO 100% of people over-estimate their lean gains during a cycle.


20lbs of those gains are not muscle.

Lets be very generous and say the guy burns 4000 calories per day(unlikely, very unlikely).

Eats 6000.

2000 calories or 250-300 grams of bodyfat(7calories per gram, unlike the 9calorie figure in foods) gain every single day.

It is ironic he says he feels fat and bloated.

Maybe it is because he is bloated.

It is very simple math.

The rest of the "gains" he will **** out when he comes off.


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## jackedjackass (Nov 16, 2014)

FelonE said:


> I have gained 22lbs. There's no if about it. Like I said it's hard to see in the pics but in real life I'm quite noticeably bigger. My tops are a lot tighter round the shoulders and chest area and legs sre bigget too. .


So?

How does the waist feel?

Bigger too?


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## jackedjackass (Nov 16, 2014)

Huntingground said:


> Saturday.


LMFA @ the chains on the bar.

Dear lord.

Your tummy sticks out twice as far as your chest does.

Legs no muscularity, despite lifting more weight than you can handle.

Not to mention the **** erotic movement by your spotter.

:lol:


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## jackedjackass (Nov 16, 2014)

banzi said:


> Agreed, it tends to be water bloat, fat and glycogen retention, once the drugs are out the system they deflate.


And this is when the fat gain becomes obvious.


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## jackedjackass (Nov 16, 2014)

SelflessSelfie said:


> Not everyone loses tons of weight post cycle. I was up 26lbs on my first cycle due to dbol water bloat. Switched to a cut for the latter half and did a reverse diet. I was 14lbs up when it came to pct. Two weeks after pct I had only dropped 1lb and looked a bit leaner. Sure I lost the muscle hardness etc but weight remained stable.
> 
> @FelonE I feel for you man, I feel like I'm a right lucky bastard being able to bulk on 2500 calories, dunno how you manage to eat so much mate.


You are the joker who thinks hes holding water by a miracle while dieting in some other thread.


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## Archaic (Mar 8, 2010)

I've only just seen this thread, 22lbs is a massive gain Felone, be happy with that

6000kcal, how tall are you and how much do/did you weigh? I'm 5'10 and 208 1lbs atm and my maintenance kcals are approx 3,700 per day. There is only so much actual lean muscle mass tissue you can build over the course of a month(s) - AAS, or not. Once you're over your maintenance kcals, overfeeding won't build lean muscle tissue faster than you could be at 1.5k less kcals.

You have done a good job by sounds of it though, it does feel good to see the scales move up after being out of action for a good spell.


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## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

jackedjackass said:


> So?
> 
> How does the waist feel?
> 
> Bigger too?


Yeah but because I'm constantly eating as much as I can so my belly is bloated.


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## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

Archaic said:


> I've only just seen this thread, 22lbs is a massive gain Felone, be happy with that
> 
> 6000kcal, how tall are you and how much do/did you weigh? I'm 5'10 and 208 1lbs atm and my maintenance kcals are approx 3,700 per day. There is only so much actual lean muscle mass tissue you can build over the course of a month(s) - AAS, or not. Once you're over your maintenance kcals, overfeeding won't build lean muscle tissue faster than you could be at 1.5k less kcals.
> 
> You have done a good job by sounds of it though, it does feel good to see the scales move up after being out of action for a good spell.


5"11 mate


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## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

jackedjackass said:


> 6000 calories, holy fuuuuck, what makes you think you need these calories?
> 
> how much of your 22lbs "gains" do you think are muscle, how much is fat and how much is water?
> 
> What did you expect from a single test cycle?


Like I've already said in my first post,not all of the 22lbs is from the cycle alot of it is from filling out(glycogen/water) from eating properly again after being off for 3 months.


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## Jammy Dodger (Nov 2, 2014)

Mate if you are considering cruising for a bit, why not cut when you have finished the blast? It seems like a waste of gear to be eating well below maintenance with all that gear in your system. I'm sure you can cut down on 250mg a week and still look good. That's actually my plan - at the moment I'm smashing out tren and test for the next 8 or so weeks - then cut on just test.


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## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

sammym said:


> Mate if you are considering cruising for a bit, why not cut when you have finished the blast? It seems like a waste of gear to be eating well below maintenance with all that gear in your system. I'm sure you can cut down on 250mg a week and still look good. That's actually my plan - at the moment I'm smashing out tren and test for the next 8 or so weeks - then cut on just test.


I'm gonna cruise after I've cut mate,just wanna see how it pans out.


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## Mingster (Mar 25, 2011)

jackedjackass said:


> LMFA @ the chains on the bar.
> 
> Dear lord.
> 
> ...


You need to remember that many, many people find the lean look unsightly too. Be objective in your posting as any more personal remarks will result in infractions.


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## infernal0988 (Jun 16, 2011)

As a guy whom has been on both sides of the specter i can say that much prefer the big bulky holding abit fat look , to be lean is pretty nice but so much more enjoyable doing an all out duck it all bulk.


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## flapjack (Mar 1, 2008)

jackedjackass said:


> LMFA @ the chains on the bar.
> 
> Dear lord.
> 
> ...


Looked like good powerful lifting to me.

Perhaps you can post a more impressive video of your lifts?


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## SelflessSelfie (May 25, 2014)

jackedjackass said:


> 20lbs of those gains are not muscle.
> 
> Lets be very generous and say the guy burns 4000 calories per day(unlikely, very unlikely).
> 
> ...





jackedjackass said:


> So?
> 
> How does the waist feel?
> 
> Bigger too?





jackedjackass said:


> LMFA @ the chains on the bar.
> 
> Dear lord.
> 
> ...





jackedjackass said:


> And this is when the fat gain becomes obvious.





jackedjackass said:


> You are the joker who thinks hes holding water by a miracle while dieting in some other thread.


Somebody woke up on the wrong side of the bed!


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## infernal0988 (Jun 16, 2011)

SelflessSelfie said:


> Somebody woke up on the wrong side of the bed!


I get like this myself when i dont take my pills lol


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## dann19900 (Dec 29, 2012)

banzi said:


> Guy is currently 240lbs, looks about 140lbs in that before pic in 2006, so its taken him 8 years to gain 100lbs
> 
> Now, got any links to a 80lb gain in one year
> 
> Oh, and if he gets clean he will likely drop down to 200lbs.


yes and i assume u agree he'll of put a lot of that on in his first year. I didn't say 80 llbs anyway, i said closer to 80 than 8 lol

Edit: and no its a 6 year transformation, 145 lbs in 6 years


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