# Can Clomid be used throughout cycle instead of HCG?



## 809099 (Jun 11, 2010)

Ok so ive read in a few threads on the forum and others that taking Clomid EOD at a dose of ~50mgs has the same effect as HCG taken throughout cycle...

Clomiphene ("Clomid") works by blocking estrogen at the pituitary. The pituitary sees less estrogen, and makes more LH. More LH means that the Leydig cells in the balls make more testosterone. Quoted from: http://www.maledoc.com/blog/2010/04/28/how-clomid-works-in-men/

Whats everyones thoughts? I have run HCG before during cycle and have taken Clomid as part of my PCT but I havent tried the above...


----------



## stone14 (Mar 24, 2005)

could do but imo i cant see how it will cause lh/fsh since your hormones will be high from aas, high estrogen will shut you down but so will high test, prog and dht thats why hcg is ok as it mimics lh so cant be shutdown.

plus clomid as its own bad side effects, not everyone gets tho, hcg seems a better choice to me, unless your cruiseing i can see how clomid may help but i cant see it helping you while on cycle at cycle doses


----------



## Dezw (May 13, 2009)

No.


----------



## Proteincarb (Oct 12, 2010)

I wondered this, I would be interested to know too as it might be good on

My SD cycle.


----------



## leeds_01 (Aug 6, 2008)

i dont know if it really could help = personally i wouldnt run it on cycle - let the gear do its job then run the clomid afterwards

try it on ur next cycle and find out!


----------



## Mars (Aug 25, 2007)

ant809099 said:


> Ok so ive read in a few threads on the forum and others that taking Clomid EOD at a dose of ~50mgs has the same effect as HCG taken throughout cycle...
> 
> *Clomiphene ("Clomid") works by blocking estrogen at the pituitary. The pituitary sees less estrogen, and makes more LH. More LH means that the Leydig cells in the balls make more testosterone*. Quoted from: http://www.maledoc.com/blog/2010/04/28/how-clomid-works-in-men/
> 
> Whats everyones thoughts? I have run HCG before during cycle and have taken Clomid as part of my PCT but I havent tried the above...


But it can only make more LH if it recieves signals from the hypothalmus to do so. It won't be recieving signals from the hypothalmus because the hypothalmus will be suppressed from exogenous testosterone. Thats why we use a synthetic LH.


----------



## cas (Jan 9, 2011)

odd, i see a few people banging on abou this....should be interesting to hear their theory


----------



## m118 (Feb 4, 2011)

cas said:


> odd, i see a few people banging on abou this....should be interesting to hear their theory


i started a thread on this very debate a few weeks/months ago. turned into a rather big ass thread!


----------



## dazc (Oct 4, 2009)

no. They are two entirely different things. Using hcg stimulates the testes, and prevents desensitisation, atrophy, and a possible reduction in the number of receptor cells. clomid will compete at certain receptor sites with estrogen. so it might reduce the estrogen feed back loop activation, but its not going to stimulate LH and FSH release at the pituitory. No way.

Waste of time, money, and risking the side effects from clomid.


----------



## 809099 (Jun 11, 2010)

Seems hcg it is then...

pretty interesting debate here though: http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/steroid-testosterone-information/158124-hcg-clomid-while-cycle-aas-better-why-8.html


----------



## R1cky (Oct 23, 2008)

HCG - Unraveled

PCT is a must upon cessation of steroid use. Many great PCT protocols have been outlined over the years, and many individuals have had success with following such protocols. Nevertheless, what works can always work better, and I intend to show you the most effective way to recover from AAS. This is especially the case for those that have had a lack of success following popular advice. In this article I will address the misunderstanding and misuse of Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) and show you the most efficient way to use HCG for the fastest and most complete recovery.

HCG unraveled -

Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) is a peptide hormone that mimics the action of luteinizing hormone (LH). LH is the hormone that stimulates the testes to produce testosterone . (1) More specifically LH is the primary signal sent from the pituitary to the testes, which stimulates the leydig cells within the testes to produce testosterone .

When Steroids are administered, LH levels rapidly decline. The absence of an LH signal from the pituitary causes the testes to stop producing testosterone , which causes rapid onset of testicular degeneration. The testicular degeneration begins with a reduction of leydig cell volume, and is then followed by rapid reductions in intra-testicular testosterone (ITT), peroxisomes, and Insulin-like factor 3 (INSL3) - All important bio-markers and factors for proper testicular function and testosterone production. (2-6,19) However, this degeneration can be prevented by a small maintenance dose of HCG ran throughout the cycle. Unfortunately, most steroid users have been engrained to believe that HCG should be used after a cycle, during PCT. Upon reviewing the science and basic endocrinology you will see that a faster and more complete recovery is possible if HCG is ran during a cycle.

Firstly, we must understand the clinical history of HCG to understand its purpose and its most efficient application. Many popular "steroid profiles" advocate using HCG at a dose of 2500-5000iu once or twice a week. These were the kind of dosages used in the historical (1960's) HCG studies for hypogonadal men who had reduced testicular sensitivity due to prolonged LH deficiency. (21,22) A prolonged LH deficiency causes the testes to desensitize, requiring a higher HCG dose for ample stimulation. In men with normal LH levels and normal testicular sensitivity, the maximum increase of testosterone is seen from a dose of only 250iu, with minimal increases obtained from 500iu or even 5000iu. (2,11) (It appears the testes maximum secretion of testosterone is about 140% above their normal capacity.) (12-18) If you have allowed your testes to desensitize over the length of a typical steroid cycle, (8-16 weeks) then you would require a higher dose to elicit a response in an attempt to restore normal testicular size and function - but there is cost to this, and a high probability that you won't regain full testicular function.

One term that is critical to understand is testosterone secretion capacity which is synonymous to testicular sensitivity. This is the amount of testosterone your testes can produce from any given LH or HCG stimulation. Therefore, if you have reduced testosterone secretion capacity (reduced testicular sensitivity), it will take more LH or HCG stimulation to produce the same result as if you had normal testosterone secretion capacity. If you reduce your testosterone secretion capacity too much, then no amount of LH or HCG stimulation will trigger normal testosterone production - and this leads to permanently reduced testosterone production.

To get an idea of how quickly you can reduce your testosterone secretion capacity from your average steroid cycle, consider this: LH levels are rapidly decreased by the 2nd day of steroid administration. (2,9,10) By shutting down the LH signal and allowing the testis to be non-functional over a 12-16 week period, leydig cell volume decreases 90%, ITT decreases 94%, INSL3 decreases 95%, while the capacity to secrete testosterone decreases as much as 98%. (2-6) Note: visually analyzing testes size is a poor method of judging your actual testicular function, since testicular size is not directly related to the ability to secrete testosterone . (4) This is because the leydig cells, which are the primary sites of testosterone secretion, only make up about 10% of the total testicular volume. Therefore, when the testes may only appear 5-10% smaller, the testes ability to secrete testosterone upon LH or HCG stimulation can actually be significantly reduced to 98% of their normal production. (3-5) The point here is to not judge testosterone secretion capacity by testicular size.

The decreased testosterone secretion capacity caused by steroid use was well demonstrated in a study on power athletes who used Steroids for 16 weeks, and were then administered 4500iu HCG post cycle. It was found that the steroid users were about 20 times less responsive to HCG, when compared to normal men who did not use Steroids. (8) In other words, their testosterone secretion capacity was dramatically reduced because they did not receive an LH signal for 16 weeks. The testes essentially became desensitized and crippled. Case studies with steroid using patients show that aggressive long-term treatment with HCG at dosages as high as 10,000iu E3D for 12 weeks were unable to return full testicular size. (7) Another study with men using low dose Steroids for 6 weeks showed unsuccessful return of Insulin-like factor-3 (INSL3) concentration in the testes upon 5000iu/wk of HCG treatment for 12 weeks (6) (INSL3 is an important biomarker for testosterone production potential and sperm production. 20)

These studies show that postponing HCG usage until the end of a steroid cycle increases your need for a higher dose of HCG, and decreases your odds of a full recovery. As a consequence to using a higher dose of HCG at the end of a cycle, estrogen will be increased disproportionately to testosterone , which then causes further HPTA suppression (from high estrogen) while increasing the risk of gyno. (11) For example, high doses of HCG have been found to raise estradiol up to 165%, while only raising testosterone 140%. (11) Higher doses of HCG are also known to reduce LH receptor concentration and degrade the enzymes responsible for testosterone synthesis within the testes (12,13,19 ) -- the last thing someone wants during recovery. While these negative effects of HCG can be partly mitigated by the use of a SERM such as tamoxifen, it will create further problems associated with using a toxic SERM (covered in another article).

In light of the above evidence, it becomes obvious that we must take preventative measures to avoid this testicular degeneration. We must protect our testicular sensitivity. Besides, with HCG being so readily available, and such a painless shot, it makes you wonder why anyone wouldn't use it on cycle.

Based on studies with normal men using Steroids, 100iu HCG administered everyday was enough to preserve full testicular function and ITT levels, without causing desensitization typically associated with higher doses of HCG. (2) It is important that low-dose HCG is started before testicular sensitivity is reduced, which appears to rapidly manifest within the first 2-3 weeks of steroid use. Also, it's important to discontinue the HCG before you start PCT so your leydig cells are given a chance to re-sensitize to your body's own LH production. (To help further enhance testicular sensitivity, the dietary supplement Toco-8 may be used)

A more convenient alternative to the above recommendation would be a twice a week shot of 200iu HCG, or possibly a once a week shot of 500iu. However, it is most desirable to adhere to a lower more frequent dose of HCG to mimic the body's natural LH release and minimize estrogen conversion. If you are starting HCG late in the cycle, one could calculate a rough estimate for their required HCG 'kick starting' dosage by multiplying 40iu x days of LH absence, since the testes will be desensitized, thus requiring a higher dose. (ie. 40iu x 60 days = 2400iu HCG dose)

Note: If following the on cycle HCG protocol, HCG should NOT be used for PCT.

Recap -

For preservation of testicular sensitivity, use 100iu HCG ED starting 7 days after your first AAS dose. At the end of the cycle, drop the HCG two weeks before the AAS clear the system. For example, you would drop HCG about the same time as your last testosterone Enanthate shot. Or, if you are ending the cycle with orals, you would drop the HCG about 10 days before your last oral dose. This will allow for a sudden and even clearance in hormone levels, while initiating LH and FSH production from the pituitary, to begin stimulating your testes to produce testosterone . Remember, recovery doesn't begin until you are off HCG since your body will not release its own LH until the HCG has cleared the system.

In conclusion, we have learned that utilizing HCG during a steroid cycle will significantly prevent testicular degeneration. This helps create a seamless transition from "on cycle" to "off cycle" thus avoiding the post cycle crash.

Eric M. Potratz has developed his education in the field of endocrinology and performance enhancement through years of research, counseling, and real world experience. Over the past five years he has been a private consultant for hundreds of athletes and bodybuilders alike, and is the founder & president of Primordial Performance.

References -

1. Glycoprotein hormones: structure and function.

Pierce JG, Parsons TF 1981

Annu Rev Biochem 50:466-495

2. Low-Dose Human Chorionic Gonadotropin Maintains Intratesticular testosterone in Normal Men with testosterone -Induced Gonadotropin Suppression

Andrea D. Coviello, et al

J. Clin. Endocrinol. Metab., May 2005; 90: 2595 - 2602.

3. Luteinizing hormone on Leydig cell structure and function.

Mendis-Handagama SM

Histol Histopathol 12:869-882 (1997)

4. Leydig cell peroxisomes and sterol carrier protein-2 in luteinizing hormone-deprived rats

SM Mendis-Handagama, et al.

Endocrinology, Dec 1992; 131: 2839.

5. Effect of long term deprivation of luteinizing hormone on Leydig cell volume, Leydig cell number, and steroidogenic capacity of the rat testis.

Keeney DS, et al.

Endocrinology 1988; 123:2906-2915.

6.The Effects of Gonadotropin Suppression and Selective Replacement on Insulin-like factor 3 Secretion in Normal Adult Men

Katrine Bay, et al

J. Clin. Endocrinol. Metab., Mar 2006; 91: 1108 - 1111.

7. Successful treatment of anabolic steroid-induced azoospermia with human

chorionic Gonadotropin and human menopausal Gonadotropin

Dev Kumar Menon, et al.

FERTILITY AND STERILITY VOL. 79, SUPPL. 3, JUNE 2003

8. Testicular responsiveness to human chorionic godadotrophin during transient hypogonadotrophic hypogonadism induced by androgenic/anabolic Steroids in power athletes

Hannu et al.

J. Steroid Biochem. Vol. 25, No. 1 pp. 109-112 (1986)

9. Comparison of testosterone , dihydrotestosterone , luteinizing hormone, and follicle-stimulating hormone in serum after injection of testosterone enanthate of testosterone cypionate.

Schulte-Beerbuhl M, et al 1980

Fertil Steril 33:201-203

10. Effects of chronic testosterone administration in normal men: safety and efficacy of high dosage testosterone and parallel dose-dependent suppression of luteinizing hormone, follicle-stimulating hormone, and sperm production.

Matsumoto AM, et al 1990

J Clin Endocrinol Metab 70:282-287

11. Effect of human chorionic Gonadotropin on plasma steroid levels in young and old men.

Longcope C et al

Steroids 21:583-590 (1973)

12. Regulation of peptide hormone receptors and gonadal steroidogenesis.

Catt KJ, et al

Rec Prog Horm Res 1980; 36:557-622

13. Effect of human chorionic Gonadotropin on the endocrine function of Papio testes

GV Katsiia, et al

Probl Endokrinol (Mosk), Sep 1984; 30(5): 68-71.

14. Reproductive function in young fathers and grandfathers.

Nieschlag E, et al.

J Clin Endocrinol Metab 55:676-681 (1982)

15. The aging Leydig cell III Gonadotropin stimulation in men.

Nankin HR, et al. 1981

J Androl 2:181-189

16. Reproductive hormones in aging men. I. Measurement of sex Steroids, basal luteinizing hormone, and Leydig cell response to human chorionic Gonadotropin.

Harman SM, et al. 1980

J Clin Endocrinol Metab 51:35-40

17. Prolonged biphasic response of plasma testosterone to single intramuscular injections of human chorionic Gonadotropin.

Padron RS, et al. 1980

J Clin Endocrinol Metab 50:1100-1104

18. Gonadotrophins and plasma testosterone in senescence. In: James VHT, Serio M, Martini L, eds. The endocrine function of the human testis.

Mazzi C, et al. 1974

New York: Academic Press, Inc.; 51-66

19. Androgen biosynthesis in Leydig cells after testicular desensitization by luteinizing hormone-releasing hormone and human chorionic Gonadotropin.

Dufau ML, et al.

Endocrinology 105 1314-1321 (1979)

20. Insulin-like factor 3 Serum Levels in 135 Normal Men and 85 Men with Testicular Disorders: Relationship to the Luteinizing Hormone-testosterone Axis

K. Bay, S. et al

J. Clin. Endocrinol. Metab., Jun 2005; 90: 3410 - 3418.

21. Stimulation of sperm production by human chorionic Gonadotropin after prolonged Gonadotropin suppression in normal men.

Matsumoto AM, et al 1985

J Androl 6:137-143

22. Human chorionic Gonadotropin and testicular function: stimulation of testosterone , testosterone precursors, and sperm production despite high estradiol levels.

Matsumoto AM, et al. 1983

J Clin Endocrinol Metab 56:720-728


----------



## R1cky (Oct 23, 2008)

can we have this debate going, i dont think i have reached to a conclusion yet for my cycle. whether to use 50mg clomid eod or 500iu 2x a week


----------



## Superhorse (May 29, 2011)

empire boy was doing an experiment

perhaps he could pop in and give us an update


----------



## Hotdog147 (Oct 15, 2011)

R1cky said:


> can we have this debate going, i dont think i have reached to a conclusion yet for my cycle. whether to use 50mg clomid eod or 500iu 2x a week


I was wondering this too..I just started my cycle a few weeks ago and decided to go with HCG because it works...ppl are on the fence with clomid so just play it safe and use HCG


----------



## BIG BUCK (Mar 26, 2010)

I blast a cruise and i've got to say hcg does NOT give me fuller balls, it's genuine pregnyl and i've been taking it for 5 weeks now at 1500iu ew. 7 weeks ago i tried clomid at 50 eod and my balls filled up, make of that what you will.

I'll stay with hcg for a few more weeks then switch to clomid and see what happens


----------



## BIG BUCK (Mar 26, 2010)

I'm with you on this one e-boy, i'm on test/deca/dbol/adex/hcg and my balls are tighter than ever, hcg isn't making my balls fuller, fact! (we will all react differently)

I did try clomid a while back and my balls were full, but stopped using because of all the info on here! that was pre deca though.

Clomid on cycle for me in a few weeks


----------



## C.Hill (Nov 21, 2010)

Hcg makes my balls swell like a good'un. Been on for a while now and they're bigger and fuller than when off. Regular hard ons, loads of spunk, 1000iu a week is sorting me right out


----------



## Vibora (Sep 30, 2007)

Empire Boy said:


> And week 6 on test/dec/oxys/dbol/var. with 50mg eod clomid, my testes are still full and plump, and my semen is thick although diminished in quantity. this of course is not evidence at all that the clomid is keeping the testes stimulated (not preventing shut down, you can't prevent shut down) via LH and FSH. But in a further 6 weeks time (12 weeks), when I am 100% supressed from the test and deca, I will get bloods done from medicheck, and we will see what the LH and FSH levels are.


In for those blood test results EmpireBoy. (although just looked at Medicheck prices, which are sky high).


----------



## Vibora (Sep 30, 2007)

Empire Boy said:


> And week 6 on test/dec/oxys/dbol/var. with 50mg eod clomid, my testes are still full and plump, and my semen is thick although diminished in quantity. this of course is not evidence at all that the clomid is keeping the testes stimulated (not preventing shut down, you can't prevent shut down) via LH and FSH. But in a further 6 weeks time (12 weeks), when I am 100% supressed from the test and deca, I will get bloods done from medicheck, and we will see what the LH and FSH levels are.


In for those blood test results EmpireBoy. (although just looked at Medicheck prices, which are sky high).


----------



## luther1 (Jul 31, 2011)

Should bloods get done before and after a cycle to determine specific results or is after ok,if so,i'm happy to get mine done too


----------



## BIG BUCK (Mar 26, 2010)

don't worry about blood tests, i'll post up a picture of my balls on hcg and then in 8 weeks on clomid, see what you think. I'll do that tonight after i've showered and shaved


----------



## SonOfZeus (Feb 15, 2009)

Emp do you get any depression from it? I'm 6 weeks in now, stopped using Clomid 4-5 weeks ago iirc as I felt like sh*t with it, depressed as fuark. But I think my balls might be starting to shrink and I have no HCG atm as I can't afford it, so considering giving Clomid one more go - maybe now test has kicked in it'll counteract any depression? Wishful thinking? Unless it was coincedental that depression kicked in with clomid - maybe situational as it was a stressful time.. However if it's not, I really don't want to feel that down again!!


----------



## C.Hill (Nov 21, 2010)

Empire Boy said:


> if you manage E, I reckon both clomid and hCG on cycle will become the standard, once we get more proof to put the naysayers to rest that clomid can't overcome androgen competition. If it can't, so be it, but at least its worth actually trying and knowing than just saying, "nope that won't work" even though the person has no fcuking clue if it will or won't in reality...if all of science was based on theory alone, the earth would still be flat, disease would be caused by miasma, and little animuncules (little preformed people) would be the composition of sperm, which then entered a women's uterus and developed. Thankfully, after people experimented, it was shown the earth was round, disease was predominantly cause by micro-organisms, and sperm carry a set of 23 chromosomes that then pair with the 23 chormosomes of a female egg, which cary xx, the male sperm xy, which determines the sex of the child (not a preformed microscopic person in sperm....)...all of these sh1t theories were proved wrong because people experimented and didnt follow blind dogma.


Will be good to see the results! Would save sticking another needle in lol especially on a short ester and peps cycle!


----------



## dazc (Oct 4, 2009)

Empire Boy said:


> Why, in normal males, with normal levels of androgens, was clomid able to overcome androgen competition, bind the anterior pituitary and cause the release of GnRH, which led to increases in LH and FSH, wich then led to a significant rise in their levels of testosterone? And you can run an AI with clomid and avoid its oestrogenic sides. But there is absolutely NO proof that clomid can't overcome androgen competition and cause the release of GnRH. In fact, all the scientific evidence thus far says that it does in fact overcome androgen competition. So until there is more solid data, I would be a little less certain about what drugs designed to help with female fertility will do in the male body with supraphysiological levels of hormones. The truth is, nobody knows, and its all assumptions based on zero scientific evidence, because nobody has bothered to A.) post blood work after running clomid 50mg eod on cycle to show levels of LH and FHS and B.) everybody assumes clomid is just for PCT after androgens have cleared....waiting for androgens to completely clear before you start PCT is dogma, and its actually doesn't make much sense for optimal recoverry. Plus, hCG can and does cause E sides as bad as comid. Finally, none of what I have written is assuming you can prevent shut down, so lets be clear on that. you will be shut down running clomid on cycle, but if clomid is able to overcome androgen competition at the anterior pituitary, even a little bit, then some natural LH and FSH is being made and this, and along with using hCG on cycle, tjis would be optimal...and again, you can't say clomid won't work based on any real evidence, its just your opinion, and that opinion might in fact be wrong. I don't know why people are being so bull headed about this when they have absolutely no scientific evidence to say it does not work.
> 
> Also, 6 weeks on clomid 50mg eod, and I have had ZERO ocular problems...


ok, so if you beleive that, then why choose clomid? why not use any of the AI's, serms, and sarms. i can pull studies of all of them increasing testosterone levels in healthy males.

there is a fundamental difference between someone with normal testosterone levels, and people running 10x or more that, but ignoring that for a second-

if its purely about estrogen feedback, then why not run letro throughout the whole cycle, and just remove the estrogen thats providing it in the first place?

if its purely about estrogen feedback, why do meds that are non aromatising, and have no estrogenic properties cause shutdown?

answer the above questions, then we will carry on the debate!

also, your blood tests are going to mean little if your using HCG during the cycle. AND im afraid you loose credibility by mentioning the fullness of your balls, and the quality of your ejaculate as means of guaging anything other than, the fullness of your balls, and the appearence of your ejaculate, so lets leave those out of the debate and stick to the science! haha


----------



## SonOfZeus (Feb 15, 2009)

I don't think Empire's arguing that it prevents shutdown (atleast from what I've percieved, yet people keep seeming to banging on as if him as Aus are saying this?), because even HCG doesn't prevent shutdown.. Just that it maintains testicular function whilst on cycle, by keeping them stimulated, in the same way a HCG does except Clomid uses LH rather than synthetic clone or whatever..


----------



## dazc (Oct 4, 2009)

SonOfZeus said:


> I don't think Empire's arguing that it prevents shutdown (atleast from what I've percieved, yet people keep seeming to banging on as if him as Aus are saying this?), because even HCG doesn't prevent shutdown.. Just that it maintains testicular function whilst on cycle, by keeping them stimulated, in the same way a HCG does except Clomid uses LH rather than synthetic clone or whatever..


i know mate. But shutdown IS the stopping of LH and FSH release at the anterior pituitory, because of feedback at the hypothalamus and the resulting shutdown of GnRH release. this in turn stops testosterone production in the testes. Desensitisation of the leydig cells can occur, and actuall there is also some thought, that extended periods without LH may lead to a reduction in leydig cell numbers, but im speculating there.

if clomid is going to stop tsticular shutdown, then it must be causing the release of GnRH, and the corresponding release of LH and FSH, thereby stimulating the testes. So in effect that would be preventing shutdown, wether you word it that way or not! Its the only possible action whereby clomid (or any other serm, or AI) could cause testicular stimulation.

Do you see what im sayin?


----------



## hilly (Jan 19, 2008)

No1 getting bored of this argument yet lol


----------



## dazc (Oct 4, 2009)

Empire Boy said:


> E from the picture isn't going to make a bit of difference in getting the pituitary to fire GnRH. Sorry, I just fail to see the logic to what you're trying to argueQUOTE]
> 
> LOL
> 
> ...


----------



## dazc (Oct 4, 2009)

Empire Boy said:


> But because of the free test, the LH and FSH won't actually lead to the production of test, it will, just like hCG, keep the leydig cells stimulated, and I would rather have my own LH than synthetic...or better, both.


again, you are wrong. if LH and FSH are present, then testosterone WILL absoloutely be released from the testes. This is fact. the testes have no feed back loops and no way of knowing what testosterone levels are they respond to gonadatropins, simpla as that.

stimulate the leydig cells, you release testosterone.


----------



## dazc (Oct 4, 2009)

Empire Boy said:


> You're wrong. If synthetic LH is present (hCG) why isn't test released? hCG is synthetic LH you realise? It stimulates the leydig cells, you understand that right? I'm wondering if you don't need to go and do a little more homework mate. But it doesn't deny the fact that you're looking swole and have a fantastic physique!


It is released! if you inject HCG, no matter what your testosterone levels, your testicles will release testosterone.

why do you think otherwise?


----------



## dazc (Oct 4, 2009)

Empire Boy said:


> I NEVER SAID clomid will prevent shut down, it will WORK LIKE HCG TO STIMULATE THE LEYDIG CELLS....and you know damn well that I know why DHT derivatives cause shut down, its a retarded question to pose. You're trying to make it out that I'm arguing something that I'm not...I AM NOT SAYING CLOMID ON CYCLE WILL PREVENT SHUTDOWN, I am saying it will work like hCG, but better, because ITS YOUR LH, not that derived from preggers p1ss...
> 
> and yes, as I am working on about 10 different things, I wrote that wrong, the hypo fires GnRH which stims the pituitary to release LH and FSH...but riddle me this again, *why doesn't synthetic LH, hCG, cause the leydig cells to produce test if they are stimulated by the synthetic LH...why?*


right. shutdown is spression of natural testosteone. you agree yes? this is because the leydig cells arent stimulated, because there are no gonadatropins being released. because the pituitory isnt releasing them, because there is no GnRH signal to do so coming from the hyopthalamus.

your saying that clomid, which is a serm, can stimulate the testes through your bodies own LH, which has to be released by the pituitory due to the GnRH signal from the hypothalamus. which is the exact opposite of what shutdown is. SO by saying that clomid is stimulating the testes through LH you are saying its counteracting shutdown.

as for the bit in bold, ill put it as simply as i can- IT ****ING DOES!


----------



## dazc (Oct 4, 2009)

Empire Boy said:


> hahahaha, you think your testes are producing testosterone when you inject hCG on cycle!!!! That is the best joke I have heard all day!!!


i dont think it, i know it.

but feel free to prove me wrong, and explain whats preventing them from doing so?


----------



## dazc (Oct 4, 2009)

Empire Boy said:


> Can somebody please tell him that your testicles are not producing a fcuking thing when you are injecting supraphysiological levels of testosterone....your balls are not making a drop of test when you inject hCG, not a drop...all the hCG is doing is preventing atrophy by stimulating the leydig cells, but it takes a whole other set of events to then get the production of test...SHUT DOWN MEANS YOUR BALLS ARE NOT PRODUCING TESTOSTERONE, and hCG will NOT MAKE YOUR SHUT DOWN BALLS PRODUCE TESTOSTERONE WHEN YOU HARE INJECTING OR SWALLOWING HUGE AMOUNTS OF TESTOSTERONE AND ITS DERIVATIVES. I am done with this, as you are clearly clueless if you think hCG, while on cycle, allows you testes to produce test...if this were the case then why in the fcuk would we need PCT? HAAHAHAHAHAHA, so funny!!!!


there is no negative feedback of testosterone levels to the testicles. the reason your not producing testosterone when injecting it, is because the hypothalamus is receiving feedback telling it that there is enough/too much.

you need PCT to restore all parts of testosterone regulation. Its a system, made up of three parts of the body, and 3 sets of homones, controlling the release of testosterone. the feedback is to the hypothalamus.

you keep going on about stimulating the leydig cells to prevent atrophy, but if you stimulate the leydig cells you release testosterone. There is no system in there that blocks that effect, it just doesnt exist. a large degree of atrophy is actually down to FSH and sperm production anyway, and means little in relation to testosterone puroduction.

your making yourself look like an uneducated fool now.


----------



## dazc (Oct 4, 2009)

Empire Boy said:


> So if your testicles are producing testosterone, while you are on cycle, that means you are not shut down, are you saying that you don't get shut down when you are on cycle? Being shut down means your testes don't produce test. So if hCG causes your testes to produce your own natural test on cycle, then you are not shut down, and you are therefore the only man in history that can make this claim...again, if hCG causes the production of natural test, and therefore prevents shut down, why do we need PCT?


NO. read whats being written, ignore what you think you know. Shutdown occurs through the whole system, not just at the testes. if you inject syntehtic gonadatropins you can stimulate the testes to do what they would normally which is produce sperm and testosterone. Your still shut down because the hypothalamus is receiving feedback through a number of loops telling it not to produce GnRH, which in turn is preventing release of your bodies own gonadatropins.

if you inject HCG you will stimulate your testes to do what they normally do, regardless of testosterone levels. You will also still be shut down.

All this relates back to the point i was making with the questions earlier about estrogen, non aromatising steroids, serms, AIs and how clomid could cause release og gonadatropins.


----------



## dazc (Oct 4, 2009)

Empire Boy said:


> so you believe that you can produce your own natural testosterone while on cycle, is that right? You are saying that by injecting hCG you can produce your own testosterone? You're the fool.


you clearly lack the understanding of the endocrine system to be able to grasp the concept. see my post above.


----------



## mal (Dec 31, 2009)




----------



## dazc (Oct 4, 2009)

Empire Boy said:


> Show me the studies in males on AAS who inject hCG and end up producing their own natural testosterone while still on AAS, show me any study that shows any male producing any natural testosterone while on AAS after injecting hCG...show me those....


the testes respond soley to gonadatropin levels. They have no feedback loops and no 'sense' of testosterone levels. feedback occurs to the hypothalamus. when you inject gonadatropins you bypass both the hypothalamus, and the pituirory, those parts of the system remain shutdown.

its a simple concept, how may times do i have to tell you.


----------



## hilly (Jan 19, 2008)

I must say I was under the impression that u could raise your test levels thru hcg while on.

They wnt keep producing by themselves afterwards so you are shut down but while the hcg is active it will make the testes do there job for a limited time.

Could be wrong tho.

Where's mars when u need him haha.


----------



## hilly (Jan 19, 2008)

Empire Boy said:


> I'm pretty sure Mars is the one who told me you can't and won't produce your own testosterone from injecting hCG while on a heavy cycle.


I'd def go with mars opinion on this. It is his area 4 sure.

I'm sure he has studies etc.


----------



## dazc (Oct 4, 2009)

Empire Boy said:


> I think you got confused somewhere along the way in thinking that your testes are making testosterone when you inject hCG. Show me the studies that show men on AAS produce testosterone when using hCG. All it does is it primes your testes to be able to produce testosterone once the androgens have cleared your system...because when your natural LH is back up, and there is no test perceived by the HPTA, then the leydig cells will finally start making test again...if hCG allowed us to make our own test on cycle then how are you shut down? Shut down is not simply the inability of the pituitary to relsease LH and FHS< its also the inability of your testes to produce testosterone...but again, show me the studies where males with supraphysiological levels of exogenous test in their system are able to also produce their own test via hCG.


Your the one thats confused.

for about the fith time. your shutdown at the hypothalamus.

i dont need to provide studies. there is no feedback mechanism to the testes. They stop producting test because there are no gonadatropins present. If you inject gonadatropins they will produce test and sperm. you will still be shut down.

stop asking how you can be shutdown if your making your own test. your making natural test because you are injecting gonadatropins. your shut down because the hypothalamus is recieving feedback.

the whole thing is a system. if you bypass one part of it, you can stimulate others. if you injected GnRH your pituitory would produce gonadatropins and your testes would produce test and sperm, but you would still be shut down because of feedback to the hypothaamus.

i dont know how many more ways i can say it?


----------



## dazc (Oct 4, 2009)

Empire Boy said:


> Shut down is not simply the inability of the pituitary to relsease LH and FHS< its also the inability of your testes to produce testosterone..


that makes no sense. Your testes are limited only by the presence of gonadatropins LH and FSH.



Empire Boy said:


> because when your natural LH is back up, and there is no test perceived by the HPTA, then the leydig cells will finally start making test .


LH and FSh is the only link between the pituitory and the testes. the leydig cells need one thing, and thats stimulation from LH, there isnt some secondary means of communication that would stop test production even though LH was present.


----------



## R1cky (Oct 23, 2008)

Testicular atrophy is a medical condition in which the male reproductive organs (the testes, which in humans are located in the scrotum) diminish in size and may be accompanied by loss of function. This does not refer to temporary changes, such as those brought on by cold.

Some medications can cause testicular atrophy. Anabolic-Androgenic Steroids (AAS) can cause testicular atrophy by reducing the amount of luteinizing hormone (LH) produced by the pituitary gland. LH stimulates the testicles to produce testosterone. Testicular atrophy caused by steroid use can be prevented by taking hCG, a drug which mimics the effect of LH. However, hCG will simply address the symptoms. Endogenious levels of anabolic-androgenic steroids will remain the cause, and testicular atrophy will continue until the male body regains homeostasis. It is unclear how long hCG can be administered to a male on anabolic-androgenic steroids before desensitization occurs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Testicular_atrophy


----------



## R1cky (Oct 23, 2008)

what about taking both during the cycle i.e 50mg clomid eod and 1,000iu hcg a week ( 500 iu didvied in 2 shots? ). im trying to wrap my head around this but just now clueless


----------



## dazc (Oct 4, 2009)

using hcg throughout the cycle will prevent atrophy and desensitisation of the leydig cells. its your best insurance against heavy shutdown if your worried about it, and will result in a slightly quicker and easier recovery.

testicular sensitivity seems to be where the problems occur in people who fail to recover, or it certainly has appeared that way in a majority of the bloodworks ive seen anway.


----------



## gymjim (Feb 1, 2009)

Right so the millon dollar question is.....

is it worth running 50mg of clomid EOD and upto 1000iu's of hcg a week whilst on cycle?


----------



## R1cky (Oct 23, 2008)

gymjim said:


> Right so the millon dollar question is.....
> 
> is it worth running 50mg of clomid EOD and upto 1000iu's of hcg a week whilst on cycle?


x2


----------



## dazc (Oct 4, 2009)

IMO, there is no data, and nothing that can be extrapolated from what is available that even provides a tenuous link to clomid (or any other serm) being able to prevent hypothalamus supression, causing continued GnRH release and stimulation of gonadatropin release on cycle.


----------



## R1cky (Oct 23, 2008)

In men, estrogen (produced by aromatization of testosterone) has a negative feedback effect on hypothalamic secretion of GnRH and thus inhibits pituitary gonadotropin secretion. It has been hypothesized that some cases of IHH result from an acquired defect of enhanced hypothalamic sensitivity to estrogen-mediated negative feedback since maintenance clomiphene citrate therapy can result in complete normalization of pulsatile gonadotropin secretion, serum testosterone level, and sexual function in men with IHH.

http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/255046-overview#a0104

its confusing man some articles favour Hcg while other clomind :|


----------



## dazc (Oct 4, 2009)

with respect R1icky, your looking at studies on people with probelms, and i guess not fully understanding what your looking at, they are using different drugs for different conditions.

the one you just quoted has no relation to people using testosterone!


----------



## R1cky (Oct 23, 2008)

dazc said:


> with respect R1icky, your looking at studies on people with probelms, and i guess not fully understanding what your looking at, they are using different drugs for different conditions.
> 
> the one you just quoted has no relation to people using testosterone!


yeah i just wana learn bout this tbh, as im going to do my first cycle really soon, soo given if you use e.g 500mg test a week how much hcg is suffient ?


----------



## dazc (Oct 4, 2009)

depends how long the cycle is and how old you are. But really, dont worry about it too much! Gains come from consistency in diet and training, not understanding the science behind every little bit of gear use! I wasted ALOT of time over many years learning stuff i really didnt need to learn, but it was only once i had learnt it and tried everything, that i realised!


----------



## R1cky (Oct 23, 2008)

im 26, been training ( on and off ) since 19 although last 2-3 years very solid, i think i have worked really hard naturally. from last few months i have started stacking up gear and btw i have ALOT of gear onme its becoming a hobby of mine lol anyway mate here my planned cycle after going through hundereds of threads on diffrent forums..

week1-4 dbol 40mg ed

week 1-12 Test e 750mg

Week 1-12 decca 400mg

Week 1-12 anastrazole 0.5 mg EOD

weeks 1-11 clomid 50mg EOD can change this to hcg 1000 iu per week in 500iu two dosage

PCT:

week12: 100mg Clomid ED, arimidex 1mg ED

week 13: same as week 12

Week 14: 50mg clomid ED, arimidex 0.5mg ED

weeks 15: arimidex 0.5mg EOD

week 16: nolvadex 20mg ED

http://www.synthetek.com/growth-principles-for-beginners-by-big-a/

http://www.timinvermont.com/fitness/test1.htm

there were another good few forums where well experienced users suggested of doing this amount of gear as results are dose dependant.. and given its ur first cycle u should gain maimum out of it.

copy and paste from an article

You need a testosterone base. 750mg/week is plenty. You need an anabolic - deca or Eq at 400mg/week is plenty. You need for optimum growth, a good oral like d-bol at 30mg/d or A-50 50mg/d. You use the test and the anabolic non stop. The oral is 4 weeks on 4 weeks off. Every 6th week (the half way point between the off oral period - so 2 weeks after you finish the oral) you have a blood test. If the blood test is OK, then you can begin your next 4 weeks on oral. There is no reason for you to come off. The only 2 reasons are health or your receptors are saturated. If the regular blood test is OK, your health is OK. If you are still making progress, your receptors are OK. Coming off, will just sabotage your gains. That's why I do not believe in set time frames for cycles. Listen to your body. When you use the oral, you need to use all the liver aids available - Synthergine, Milk Thistle, L-methionine, Liv-52, etc. Of course you cannot drink or do rec drugs during that time. Using these precautions, your blood tests will be OK.

You also need to use an anti estrogen like Nolvadex at 10mg/d throughout the whole time. Also, you have a choice between HCG every 4 weeks at 5000IU or Clomid at 50mg EOD. These will make sure that your balls will stay at a decent size and they will not forget how to function. The blood tests that you need are: full blood count, liver and kidney function tests, FSH, LH, TSH, cholesterol. If the Total protein test in the liver tests is high, that is because of your diet. You need to keep an eye on the Billirubin and Urea test results. Your FSH and LH will be suppressed - that's normal because of the gear. If the TSH is low, add 20mcg/d T3. If the kidney function is off, then drink more. Protein stresses the kidneys, so you need more fluids. When you eventually come off the gear, you make sure that you are off the orals. Then cut out the anabolic over 2 weeks. Then the testosterone over 3 weeks. One week after that, you need to add primo tabs or anavar (oxandrin) for 3 weeks. That will ensure that you will keep your gains.

Ideally do a gainkeeper's formula that is outlined in another article.


----------



## Mr_Morocco (May 28, 2011)

anyone in contact with empire boy? he was using the clomid 50mg EOD protocol instead of HCG and was going to get bloods done after his cycle, would love to know the results


----------



## deano (Feb 22, 2009)

Would be interesting to see blood results


----------



## Mitch. (Jul 26, 2011)

I'm currently using the 50mg clomid EOD method. Unfortunately I didn't have the money to get bloods done to check whether or not it will work. I am just going by nut size.

I got minimal shrinkage when I ran 500mg test last summer (no hCG or clomid used) but running 800mg this cycle.

If I do get really badly shutdown and my nuts shrink a lot then I will blast some hCG but happy to see how well popping a pill EOD works over extra jabbing.


----------



## Zorrin (Sep 24, 2010)

I'm a chemist, not a biologist, but the way I understand it is like this:-

Your pituitary gland is THOUSANDS of times more sensitive to estrogens (shutdown-wise) than to testosterone. In other words, your HPTA is there to keep estrogen levels steady, rather than testosterone.

After your cycle, you have to do two things to start making your own testosterone again.

1.Your HPTA has to start up again, so your thyroid can send lutenising hormone into your bloodstream.

2. You have to regrow the leydig cells in your balls, if they have atrophied. Only then can they respond to the LH floating around in your blood serum.

If you are on a simple test-only cycle, I recon that using clomid will be enough to hide the extra estrogen you make from your thyroid gland, and shutdown may not occur. However, if you're using something like dianabol, the ultra-potent, long-lasting methylated estrogen it aromatises to will probably be too much for clomid to hide.

Think of your balls as a brewery that makes testosterone. The head brewer has been soaked in testosterone and drunk since you were 13, but fortunately, he doesn't decide when to make "beer" or to stop. That's all decided at head office in London (your thyroid gland), which makes a phone call every daY to your balls in Burton-on-Trent and says "brew more beer". Your balls don't care how much test or estrogen is in your blood, they're just waiting for that phonecall (lutenising hormone).

I think of HCG as being a man round the corner from the brewery with a mobile phone, pretending to be head office. He phones the brewery (which can't tell the difference between LH and HCG), and it's tricked into brewing a batch of Bodington's.

If the brewery is idle for a few weeks, the boilers are turned off, the staff all leave, and your balls shrink. You have to literally grow a new pair during PCT.

If you use HCG to trick your balls into working, they are ready to go as soon as head office gets on the phone again - no need to hire new staff.

I think


----------



## Reaper 2X3 (Nov 21, 2011)

I struggle to get hCG where I am so tried the Clomid route this cycle. Currently wk7 at 1g a Test a week, my nuts should be like maltesers by now. Running 50mg clomid EOD. They have kept decent size, i havent had the ache i got from running neither before. While my 'load' is defo down the Clomid has certainly kept off full on athropy! Also had no sides from the Clomid either.

Just my findings.


----------



## Rick_86 (May 12, 2011)

As much as i can gather the info on this subject just by reading alot of wiki links and forum banter, HCG works directly and clomid works indirectly so if som1 aint using HCG then atleast they should use clomid to stop testicular astrophy. there arent any clinical studies on this esp to compare the effectvness of clomid vs HCG while running high doses of Anabolic steriods.


----------



## Superhorse (May 29, 2011)

Is there a downside to using clomid alongside HCG? Aside from the fact it is an additional drug for which there is argument on whether it has a purpose or not


----------



## Rick_86 (May 12, 2011)

Superhorse said:


> Is there a downside to using clomid alongside HCG? Aside from the fact it is an additional drug for which there is argument on whether it has a purpose or not


nobody wants to explain lol


----------



## m118 (Feb 4, 2011)

Zorrin said:


> I'm a chemist, not a biologist, but the way I understand it is like this:-
> 
> Your pituitary gland is *THOUSANDS *of times more sensitive to estrogens (shutdown-wise) than to testosterone. In other words, your HPTA is there to keep estrogen levels steady, rather than testosterone.
> 
> ...


I remember Mars saying that oestrogen is 200x more suppressive than test.

and rearding the HPTA, the thyroid gland makes thyroid hormones, and it responds to tsh. the anterior pituitary releases LH and this acts on the balls. Effectively, seperate systems.

The issues of dbol and clomid is something ive been wondering. since clomid blocks oestrogens effectively, does that mean that if runnig it at the same time as dbol, shutdown should be less since the aromatised oestrogens of dbol will have fewer available receptors to act on?


----------



## big steve (May 8, 2011)

Zorrin said:


> I'm a chemist, not a biologist, but the way I understand it is like this:-
> 
> Your pituitary gland is THOUSANDS of times more sensitive to estrogens (shutdown-wise) than to testosterone. In other words, your HPTA is there to keep estrogen levels steady, rather than testosterone.
> 
> ...


i understand now:thumb:


----------



## Mars (Aug 25, 2007)

Zorrin said:


> I'm a chemist, not a biologist, but the way I understand it is like this:-
> 
> Your pituitary gland is THOUSANDS of times more sensitive to estrogens (shutdown-wise) than to testosterone. *In other words, your HPTA is there to keep estrogen levels steady, rather than testosterone.*
> 
> ...


NO, NO AND NO :lol:


----------



## Rick_86 (May 12, 2011)

Thank fk mars arrived lol cmon bro enlightned us


----------



## dr gonzo (Oct 8, 2011)

Personally i would listen to what mars and hackskii says they no there stuff


----------



## Mars (Aug 25, 2007)

hilly said:


> I must say I was under the impression that u could raise your test levels thru hcg while on.
> 
> They wnt keep producing by themselves afterwards so you are shut down but while the hcg is active it will make the testes do there job for a limited time.
> 
> ...


Iv'e pretty much kept out of it, i'd had enough trying to explain all his errors in the other thread :lol: .

At least dazc is putting him straight, saves me the aggro and whats the point anyway, he won't listen, his only response is show me the studies :lol: .


----------



## big steve (May 8, 2011)

Mars said:


> NO, NO AND NO :lol:


just when i was starting to understand too!


----------



## Rick_86 (May 12, 2011)

giving there are so many protocols on HCG during the cycle, whats ur recommedation for som1 doing 1+g a week .. thanks mate


----------



## Mars (Aug 25, 2007)

Rick_86 said:


> giving there are so many protocols on HCG during the cycle, whats ur recommedation for som1 doing 1+g a week .. thanks mate


I recommend the one in my sticky (1000iu once weekly) it's based on the very latest studies carried out by the Endocrinology Society. It's also been tried and tested by myself and many others on this forum with great success.


----------



## Rick_86 (May 12, 2011)

Mars said:


> I recommend the one in my sticky (1000iu once weekly) it's based on the very latest studies carried out by the Endocrinology Society. It's also been tried and tested by myself and many others on this forum with great success.


thanks buddy .. just few questions more if you dont mind answering

1) what week you start hcg dosage of 1000 ius during the cycle?

2) worth splitting into 2 dosages?

3) when you stop using hcg e.g on a 12 week cycle ?

4) if your planning to do long cycles like 16-20 weeks , should the use of hcg be continous throught the cycle or split into small cycles of 4 weeks then stop for few and start again.. I have read somwhere if you uyse it for too long yur body stop producing your natural process of making sperm hence relying solely on hcg to stimulate necessary processes to make sperm.

5) use of clomid alongside hcg any benifecial? e.g 50mg EOD

6) length of time after the last hcg shot to starting of Pct?

Thanks mate... the only reason im asking u all this because there isnt the lack of information out there but excessive IMO, just want to know your personal thought on this


----------



## Rick_86 (May 12, 2011)

and lastly where to inject hcg? intra muscular or subcutaneous i have read two sperate studies where one concluded it dsnt really matter but the other one says intramuscular is much better? any thoughts


----------



## mark22 (Jul 13, 2011)

Rick_86 said:


> and lastly where to inject hcg? intra muscular or subcutaneous i have read two sperate studies where one concluded it dsnt really matter but the other one says intramuscular is much better? any thoughts


Subq is working fine for me. Im is not needed and way ott.


----------



## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

Mars said:


> NO, NO AND NO :lol:





Mars said:


> his only response is show me the studies :lol: .


well its a better response than yours above (NO and NO and No, rather than explaining why, with some links to journal articles so that someone could follow your logic).


----------



## Mars (Aug 25, 2007)

ausbuilt said:


> well its a better response than yours above (NO and NO and No, rather than explaining why, with some links to journal articles so that someone could follow your logic).


Sorry sir. i hadn't the time but FYI part 2 was coming today, though TBH i don't see that it needs much explanation, *and as it was incorrect information i certainly don't see it as a better response than mine and you would know all about posting incorrect information * :lol: *. * But here's a quick one for you before i head off.

1, The pituitary gland is not *thousands* of times more sensitive to estrogen.

2, The HPTA does a hell of a lot more than keep estrogen levels steady, in fact it controls just about everything.

3, Your thyroid is not the gland that sends LH into your bloodstream.

PS: @ Rick_86, i will answer your questions later.


----------



## Robbie (Dec 31, 2007)

Subbed for the answers to Ricks questions!


----------



## Rick_86 (May 12, 2011)

Mars said:


> Sorry sir. i hadn't the time but FYI part 2 was coming today, though TBH i don't see that it needs much explanation, *and as it was incorrect information i certainly don't see it as a better response than mine and you would know all about posting incorrect information * :lol: *. * But here's a quick one for you before i head off.
> 
> 1, The pituitary gland is not *thousands* of times more sensitive to estrogen.
> 
> ...


ok mate


----------



## Jay Walker (Jun 24, 2003)

Mars, do you have any medical credentials? Just out of interest.


----------

