# BCAA before fasted cardio in KETO.....?



## Tomwlsn99 (May 30, 2009)

I need something cleared up. My understanding is that the best times to use BCAA is firstly when your on a diet, secondly before morning cardio sessions to stop or reduce muscle being broken down. Some people have said this is best practice to take 5g BCAA 15min before my fasted cardio. Others have said not to because the insulin response from taking this will almost be like eating sugar therefore reducing the fat burning effects. I'm following a CKD. What do I do as I'm a bit confused on this. Thanks.


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## B-GJOE (May 7, 2009)

I don't know the answer, but I think those that take it are probably just panicking. I've got some and I used it mon, tue this week before cardio, didn't use it thu, fri and felt much better without it, but there may have been many other factors as to why my thu/fri cardio was better. IMO, low intensity cardio is lypolytic so there is not really much reason for the body to want to cut into muscle proteins. IMO forget the BCAA, I don't think the benefits outweigh the costs, but avoid over doing cardio especially if you are using stims, as this will surely cut into muscle protein for gluconeogeneisis, especially on fasted cardio keto.


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## martin brown (Dec 31, 2008)

B|GJOE said:


> I don't know the answer, but I think those that take it are probably just panicking. I've got some and I used it mon, tue this week before cardio, didn't use it thu, fri and felt much better without it, but there may have been many other factors as to why my thu/fri cardio was better. IMO, low intensity cardio is lypolytic so there is not really much reason for the body to want to cut into muscle proteins. IMO forget the BCAA, I don't think the benefits outweigh the costs, but avoid over doing cardio especially if you are using stims, as this will surely cut into muscle protein for gluconeogeneisis, especially on fasted cardio keto.


Good advice above.

In real life it won't make much difference either way - and your not going to loe pounds of muscle if you don't have them.

Most of the big believers of using BCAA's use BIG amounts - like 20-40g a time


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## Tomwlsn99 (May 30, 2009)

Im doing 45mins in the mornings mon-fri. I have a chest-eze and a couple of pro plus with a green tea. In your opinion is this too much cardio?


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## Tomwlsn99 (May 30, 2009)

Also I've bought 500g of the stuff so should I use it as it's there or avoid due to the insulin respose?


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## martin brown (Dec 31, 2008)

Tomwlsn99 said:


> Also I've bought 500g of the stuff so should I use it as it's there or avoid due to the insulin respose?


I would have 10g pre and post workout, OR if you already have a shake before and after mix 10g in your water and drink it during training.

If your heart rate is low there cant be too much cardio IMO. It's like askin if I work stood up all day will I get too lean!


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## Tomwlsn99 (May 30, 2009)

Ok mate I'll do that. My heart rate is around the 130 mark. Is that about right in your opinion?


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## martin brown (Dec 31, 2008)

Yeah I suppose so. If your under 30 that's failry low though IMO.

I'm more of a fan of higer HR stuff as it burns more in less time - but see how you go.


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## Tomwlsn99 (May 30, 2009)

I worry about higher HR stuff burning the small amount of muscle I have. If I knew it wouldn't I would more than happily do this. Also I'm following a ketogenic diet so I would assume doing higher HR stuff would tempt the body even more to use protein as fuel?


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## martin brown (Dec 31, 2008)

Tomwlsn99 said:


> I worry about higher HR stuff burning the small amount of muscle I have. If I knew it wouldn't I would more than happily do this. Also I'm following a ketogenic diet so I would assume doing higher HR stuff would tempt the body even more to use protein as fuel?


Maybe someone else should help you then. I don't really follow the way of thinking that you are doing 

To me if your not the size of a decent amateur bodybuilder then you have no fear of losing muscle and certainly no need for Keto diets. It's just taking a sledge hammer to a walnut.

Take a look at the average 100m sprinter - no cardio, no training for size on the whole, and a decent set of legs and upper body. All from a little weight training and alot of high HR high intensity cardio. Oh, and no pain in the ass keto diet


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## Tomwlsn99 (May 30, 2009)

I take on board what you say Martin. So what would you recommend for someone who is just looking to get into shape for the summer. Don't get me wrong, I do have muscle but not as much as a lot on here. My main goal is to lose the fat around my abs.


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## Tomwlsn99 (May 30, 2009)

Also I must say that in a funny way I'm quite enjoying this keto diet. The weekly carb up sessions are great.


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## martin brown (Dec 31, 2008)

For my clients getting in shape alot of their time is spent lifting weights fast. The rest of the time is doing cardio fast. They don't do anything slow 

Normally 30-60 seconds flat out, 90%+ HR, followed by 30-90 seconds rest intervals. This is done anything upto 20 times. It's hard though and it make you sick. It does more for your fitness than anything else though - and the fitter you get it doesn't get easier if you know how to adapt it.

I'm by no means against doign morning fasted cardio - quite the opposite actaully I have used it many times in the past. I just don't think it's the best tool for the job in many cases.

If you like the keto diet, and it's working then stick with it  That's going to be the most influential factor.


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## Tomwlsn99 (May 30, 2009)

Ok cheers pal


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## b4kun09 (May 20, 2009)

joe is cardio fine? im using 1 t5 and 1 clen a day. doing 2 cardio sessions a day. 6am and 8pm. burning off roughly 14 to 1500 calories a day doing cardio. as u know im doing CKD. ive dropped 18lb in 7 weeks so far. and it dont look or feel like ive dropped a 1lb from the bottom of the chest up. only my neck and face lol


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## Tomwlsn99 (May 30, 2009)

Can I ask how your burning off 750 calories per session? I must be doing something wrong as my 1 hour fast walk morning session is probably only burning about 350 calories!!!


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## Tomwlsn99 (May 30, 2009)

18lb off your neck....? You must look like a lolli pop lol


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## b4kun09 (May 20, 2009)

hahaha no mate that the only place so far where i can see mass changes. but i dont know how but i am burning off that amount per 1 hour session according to the readin on the bike.


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## B-GJOE (May 7, 2009)

if you have been carrying a lot of bf, you will not see the big changes until the bf gets lower. When body fat gets low, you will be more motivated as you will start to see new cuts, separation, etc each week.

Martin's advice about HIIT cardio is sound if the diet matches this output. HIIT is great if you are fueling the body for it, as it will burn calories more efficiently when not training. However, as we the keto boys, you should stick with light cardio. As martin also said, if your cardio is light you will not burn muscle. Just be patient with your diets, the body doesn't get ripped very quickly it takes time, unfortunately. Ask any competitive bodybuilder, and they will tell you that you have to be patient, stick with it and keep track of everything so you can make adjustments as necessary.

If you simply take your BF% each week and your scale weight you can very easily work out if you are loosing lbm or fat. If the result is not what you want, then assess what you have done over the past 7 days, make adjustments, monitor and adjust, it isn't that difficult.


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## b4kun09 (May 20, 2009)

well the bf calipers aint bang on accurate as people know. but last week i did a bf measurement and it was 15.4% after a loss of 3lb this week. i did a bf measurement again yesterday and it was 14.2 % so does that work out as 3lb of fatloss?


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## Tomwlsn99 (May 30, 2009)

I'll stick to my fasted am workouts. And I'll also take some BCAA before hand as well as I've bought loads of the stuff.


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## b4kun09 (May 20, 2009)

i personally thought at 14% bf id look pretty decent by now so its obviously off a bit i can feel the muscle under the fat. infact you can just about pinch anything on my thighs triceps and calves and under my shoulder blade to even get a fat reading its just i aint showing that much yet. although i can feel my abs coming through. but theres been no change in sharpness from them in the last 3 to 4 weeks. but ive adjusted things a little in the last week as joe advised so maybe i got to give that another week or 2 to see any changes in that.


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## Tomwlsn99 (May 30, 2009)

Sounds like it's working mate. I'm only 3 weeks in so early days I suppose. I love Saturdays. Can't get enough carbs. Just had loads of spaghetti with butter and Magi (a vegetable seasoning) which if you haven't tried, you need to, and chix breast in nandos peri peri sauce.....amazing.


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## B-GJOE (May 7, 2009)

b4kun09 said:


> well the bf calipers aint bang on accurate as people know. but last week i did a bf measurement and it was 15.4% after a loss of 3lb this week. i did a bf measurement again yesterday and it was 14.2 % so does that work out as 3lb of fatloss?


I can't answer that without knowing what you total bw was at 15.4% and what it is at 14.2%.

But here is an example of how it may work:

EG

200lbs @ 15.4% bf would be 30.8lbs of fat and 169.2lbs of LBM

Loose 3lbs

197 @ 14.2% bf would be 27.94lbs of fat and 169.06lbs of LBM

So net loss would be

30.8 - 27.94 = 2.86lbs of Fat

169.2 - 169.06 = 0.14lbs of LBM

Which is a fooking good week IMO!!!!!!

Also remember do your BF measurements 3 times and take the average, because like you said they are not always accurate.


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## b4kun09 (May 20, 2009)

ok i was weighing 14 stone 13lb with 15.4 % bf

now im 14 stone 10 at 14.4% bf


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## B-GJOE (May 7, 2009)

b4kun09 said:


> ok i was weighing 14 stone 13lb with 15.4 % bf
> 
> now im 14 stone 10 at 14.4% bf


What am I? Your pocket calculator?

14st13lbs = 209lbs

14st10lbs = 206lbs

209lbs @ 15.4%

32.186lbs of FAT

176.814lbs of LBM

206lbs @ 14.4%

29.664lbs of FAT

176.336lbs of LBM

Net losses

2.522lbs of FAT

0.478lbs of LBM

Again, that's a pretty good week on a cut. So stop worrying, worry = stress = cortisone = LBM loss.


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## b4kun09 (May 20, 2009)

lol joe you seem to be a bit better than a calculator haha


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