# Permanent HPTA Damage to AAS Users - Thread from muscletalk. Read up please.



## Shreds (Feb 3, 2010)

Just was skimming the next on long cycles vs HPTA damage and came across this thread on muscle talk. Not sure if this has already been posted on here but i would like to introduce people to what 'woofly' has wrote. Takes you outside of the box of AAS use.

Makes me think is all of it worth it if you aren't a pro. Im not sure. But if anyone wants to carry on reading the thread its very interesting.

I know there is safe educated use of AAS as i hope every one is educated. But just after reading this it makes me think if its all worth it. I know ive cut corners before i.e not using HCG on cycle and all the tiny precautions that i can do to make it safer.

I plan to carry these out from now on. I hope others will realise the possible permanent damage that they can do to their bodies and take every precaution they can to be as safe as possible.

http://www.muscletalk.co.uk/Permanent-HPTA-Damage-to-AAS-Users-m861570.aspx

Posted from Woofly on 30th Dec 2005

"I have read many posts on damage to HPTA through using AAS on long cycles e.g. 12wks + but there seems to be little debate as to whether short cycles at high doses can result in HPTA damage. As we know the longer we suppress our bodies owns production of LHRH through the use of AAS the greater the risk of causing damage to our HPTA. However, I have found recently that through using 50mg Winstrol tabs and 40 mg Dbol per day over a five week period has resulted in the lowering of my bodies owns production of LHRH and test levels have been as low as 4.3 nmol/L. My body has shown few signs of recovery some 4.5 mths later and my Endocrinologist seems to think im destined for HRT.

I have used AAS on and off for 7 years with great effect using low does and giving myself plenty of rest between courses (12 wks+). I believe that over the years I have gradually damaged my HPTA and the last course which was abnormally high for me, finished the job. I seem to be at a point of no return and despite referring to published literature on the use of AAS I was never aware that I could cause permanent damage to my HPTA. There is plenty of literature relating to the obvious side affects such as acne through to liver disease but on the most important area, the brain, there is very little.

AAS use is definitely on the increase in the UK and speaking to up and coming BBS I have encountered numerous examples who are totally unaware that they can permanently damage their HPTA through the use of AAS and inhibit the bodies own production of LHRH, (which as we know is used to secrete LH which inevitably leads to the production of testosterone in the scrotum). I therefore note my findings as a warning to all AAS users in that every time we switch off our bodies production of testosterone we risk never being able to restore it back to normal levels after discontinued use of AAS and of course PCT.

I believe that more and more BBS using AAS over a reasonable period will end up on HRT for life and probably will never know the true side effects of using gear until its too late. Pouring hormones into our own body is a risky business and once we have damaged our own natural supply we cannot exactly slip a band aid over it and nurse it back to health like a sprained ankle.

Many young guys look up to professional bodybuilders as something to aim for and think if they can use AAS and get away with it then so can I. While I am not a doctor and have no evidence to support this theory it is my belief that many pros are where they are today, because their own bodies have superior genetics and can withstand the high androgenic abuse. Not all men are genetically the same hence why so many have fallen ill or even died because of steriods. I suggest that certain BBS should read up on HRT and its associated risks along with the affects of low testosterone and HPTA damage before considering their next cycle.

Low testosterone levels have had very damaging effects on both my personal and professional life and by producing this post I hope that some of you will learn and not have to go through the same problems as me.

Good Luck."


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## Justin Cider (Jul 18, 2010)

Intresting...


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## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

Surely like anything, it's use vs abuse? Stay on for extended periods of time, without ancilliaries, without PCT, sure, I can see a chance of you messing up your HPTA. Sensible cycles, with enough off time, I'm sure there's plenty of examples of those people recovering with the blood work to show it too.


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## stone14 (Mar 24, 2005)

i disagree that aas use damages the hpta, im not all that clued up on the hpta but i no the basics and i no that aas shuts the system down, i dont see how that causes damage to it, its shut down for many years before puberty for example. yes it may take years to fully start up again from long cycles but this in my eyes is normal, from being shut off before puberty it takes years to fully start up ,this is what puberty basicly is, the hormones increasing and the body adjusting to it. if u see what i mean????

i believe that any damage to the hpta is more towards hcg use and other meds used to increase recovery, more than useing aas and being shut down. the is no time scale on your hpta that says if its shut down for 4 weeks it will recover fine, but if shutdown for years then automaticly it is damaged. shut down is shutdown no matter how long in my eyes.

its what you take to start the hpta again that i believe will damage it (if at all)

its as the guy above says use vs abuse... if you take meds to speed up your hpta (ie hcg for 1 example) and abuse it them damage could be a possibility (but no1 realy nos so they?)

i just cant see a shutdown hpta becoming damaged just cos its shutdown too long, i think its what you do 'force it' to start it up as quick as possible that will be the cause of its damage if anything


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## stone14 (Mar 24, 2005)

also to the posted thread, ppl who use aas and get problems cant say they wouldnt have that problem if thay had never took aas, plenty ppl have hpta and hormone problems at all stages of like and end up on trt, hrt etc, but have never touched aas


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## Doink (Sep 21, 2010)

he contradicted himself continually throughout that thread and in others.

I hate to just tar the guy immediately but i'm pretty sure he was concocting the whole tale.

He's been back since and updated since that thread...


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## hilly (Jan 19, 2008)

so you mean when i get old i will get free gear. errrmmm ill live with that


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

hilly said:


> so you mean when i get old i will get free gear. errrmmm ill live with that


lol, is one of the reasons I like you hilly - always a 'the glass is half full rather than half empty' kind of person


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## stone14 (Mar 24, 2005)

double post.


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## stone14 (Mar 24, 2005)

hilly said:


> so you mean when i get old i will get free gear. errrmmm ill live with that


lol just pray the doc lets u have the jabs n not the gel **** haha


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## Shreds (Feb 3, 2010)

bump - any more views.


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## HVYDUTY100 (Sep 4, 2010)

interesting thread dont know if i believe that though hes only taking examples from what only he has personally experienced not good to hear though


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## arnold84 (Apr 14, 2008)

I think given enough time (not 4.5 months as woofy has stated) HTPA will recover from years of use/abuse but its if your willing to wait that long with low T etc which most wont


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## Little_Jay (Feb 6, 2006)

good read, but not to sure, i think its like anything some people will react worse than others same with rec drugs/alchol, not to sure what to make of it


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## HVYDUTY100 (Sep 4, 2010)

HCG during cycle is going to make pct alot easier isnt it?


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## Andy Dee (Jun 1, 2008)

HVYDUTY100 said:


> HCG during cycle is going to make pct alot easier isnt it?


Yes more than you'll ever know, hcg is the only med i use through.. so called PCT


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## Dezw (May 13, 2009)

andysutils said:


> Yes more than you'll ever know, hcg is the only med i use through.. so called PCT


HCG is the stuff!

I will never use gear again without it, when used during a cycle one you come off it feels like you have nothing to recover as you haven't lost anything, well for me anyway.


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## pariah (May 8, 2008)

sure were all destined for HRT at some point!


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## MXD (Jan 23, 2008)

Totally agree with the article.


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## HVYDUTY100 (Sep 4, 2010)

What Dosage of HCG do you use during the course and for how long?



Dezw said:


> HCG is the stuff!
> 
> I will never use gear again without it, when used during a cycle one you come off it feels like you have nothing to recover as you haven't lost anything, well for me anyway.


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## hilly (Jan 19, 2008)

Dtlv74 said:


> lol, is one of the reasons I like you hilly - always a 'the glass is half full rather than half empty' kind of person


you have to be these days mate.

In all seriousness. we all know/understand the potential risks of ending up on hormone replacement therapy. From my point of view my dads 50 and has just been put on the andro gel patches as he asked to get t levels checked and they came back very low. Ive been telling him for years he was showing sides of low T.

My dads never done a course in his life as far as i no and im sure their are hundreds if not thousands like this so why would i worry about causing it myself instead of waiting for it to happen naturally is my point.


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## Shreds (Feb 3, 2010)

hilly said:


> you have to be these days mate.
> 
> In all seriousness. we all know/understand the potential risks of ending up on hormone replacement therapy. From my point of view my dads 50 and has just been put on the andro gel patches as he asked to get t levels checked and they came back very low. Ive been telling him for years he was showing sides of low T.
> 
> My dads never done a course in his life as far as i no and im sure their are hundreds if not thousands like this so why would i worry about causing it myself instead of waiting for it to happen naturally is my point.


I agree with what you have said some what, not all men as they get older loose their T count to a severe degree, i.e some people agreebly are genetically and for physical reasons i.e health, nutrition and lifestyle bear weather they are going to be on hrt or not later in life. My dad whos over 50 has a very high test count for his age. Never been to the gym, eats healthly, lives healthy etc in fairness he did work as a labourer when in his teens. Not sure if this makes a difference.

In short i think yes, some people who have lived a less luxurious and healthy lifestyle are more likely to loose their T count later in life, but some will keep their count higher.


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## Shreds (Feb 3, 2010)

I also think relating to the thread from woofly that he possibly abused AAS to a degree where it affected his HPTA, maybe co-insiding with bad luck for loosing his natural test count in his elder years.

But im sure if many of us do all as we can do protect our little sack and carry out nessessary precauations to keep the HPTA alive and not permenantly shut down i.e not running certain compounds like winny, deca, tren for instance who all have a high hpta shutdown effect. testosterone is probably the safest to run as its most similar to the bodies natural hormone and not altered like other compounds etc.

Im not sure entirely if legnth of a cycle makes a difference, in some ways the hpta is shutdown or not shutdown, but if you are shutdown for a legnthy period of time then maybe the body gets used to it and 'gives up' trying to refire it up as its got a plentyfull supply of sythentic hormones.


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## stonemuscle (Jan 8, 2011)

Because AAS are in use basically only few decades, we still don't know long term consequences of their abuse. Dosages that bodybuilders use are far more than therapeutic doses, and no one really knows what % of people will react with some long term problems. It often happens in medicine. No matter how much money you spend on testing some new drug for side effect before the drugs see the light of the day, you can never buy the time of 40-50 years that will show you how many people will have long term sides. Aspirin was considered very safe, until it's recently discovered that it's dangerous for kids under 18, because it can affect their development. The guy who invented DDT was eating it with a spoon to show people how safe it is. And then, decades later it's discovered that it's highly carcinogen because it accumulates in the body fat. People would watch an explosion of a nuclear bomb, because no one knew it irradiates some invisible rays that can kill you even after 50 years.

No one of us would eat DDT with a spoon, or watch an explosion of a nuclear bomb. Maybe some future generations will say the same for AAS. Maybe abuse of AAS destroys some receptors in pituitary gland, and it just depends on how many receptors some of us have. Since pituitary gland is part of the nervous tissue, it probably doesn't regenerate so easily..

But maybe, this guy is one of many who would have low testosterone level anyway. We don't know that... Maybe we will all find out... later.


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## HJL (Apr 26, 2009)

stone14 said:


> i disagree that aas use damages the hpta, im not all that clued up on the hpta but i no the basics and i no that aas shuts the system down, i dont see how that causes damage to it, its shut down for many years before puberty for example.


puberty is natural, and has been since we were monkeys!!

I wouldnt have thought it was common knowlege that AAS would cause HPTA problems in the long term. humans are not mechanical like cars, cant just be switched on and off! Injecting hormones, shutting down natural production, re-starting etc are all gonna take its toll and cause confusion, desensitised receptors etc surely?

I think people are too used to seeing huge bbers with "no AAS related problems" so think its fine. so many under 25's must have jabbed hundreds of grames of test in to there bodys and couples with powerfull anti cancer PCT meds, its not gonna help!

im not a user, and have a pretty basic knowlege but im always suprised about how many people seem to dive in!


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## Hendrix (Sep 16, 2009)

It can take the body up to 6 years to recover from the effects of alcohol abuse/alcoholism and other party drugs. I know AAS are a bit different, but why would it not take as long to fully recover after years of abuse. Not talking sensible use.


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## Joshua (Aug 21, 2008)

I believe some stacks could cause permanent disruption FWIW. The mechanism for why is quite a tricky one to explain.



> i disagree that aas use damages the hpta, im not all that clued up on the hpta but i no the basics and i no that aas shuts the system down, I don't see how that causes damage to it, its shut down for many years before puberty for example.


The normally functioning HPTA is quite an intricate system, that goes beyond a simple test levels being restored. The cells in your balls which produce the test have all sorts of signals that they take in to work out what is going on. If these signals get too far out of whack, long term shut down, or even damage can occur.

Before puberty, the body is going through development. It is not as if we are conceived with full grown bollocks, and at the start of puberty a switch is thrown and it all lights up. Different organs go through many stages of development, with changing cell types, hormones that are produced and sensed, etc. If you go back far enough, there is little difference between a male and female (on an organism scale anyhow).

Apart from that the nature of the low levels of home-grown (endogenous) testosterone from AAS use is very different from the low levels from pre-puberty, There are also some very fundamental differences in prepubescents in how testosterone is handled, what it turns into (downstream metabolism) and the bang per buck that each bit of testosterone does (androgen receptor dimer stability).

J


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## Shreds (Feb 3, 2010)

HJL said:


> puberty is natural, and has been since we were monkeys!!
> 
> I wouldnt have thought it was common knowlege that AAS would cause HPTA problems in the long term. humans are not mechanical like cars, cant just be switched on and off! Injecting hormones, shutting down natural production, re-starting etc are all gonna take its toll and cause confusion, desensitised receptors etc surely?
> 
> ...


Just in responce to what you said, yes we are all used to seeing big bb's like dennis james, cutler, coleman, markus ruhl naming a few of the big ones. They walk around and are huge yes, but they are still human, and they still will uptake a lot of the problems that some of us come across from AAS.

Quite a few of them dont have children for obvious perm shut down reasons. Pro's dont forget, as they are on all year around for probably years across the board means that they have a higher chance of developing irreversable damage to their bodies, so in hindsight they get regular check ups, scans, take HDL and LDL correction supplements, lipid checks and everything really... ( probably free of charge ) to make sure that they are running smooth.

At least we are aware of a lot of the problems that occur due to over use of AAS more so than they did back in arnies day anyway. And they developed manier problems worse than ours such as arnies severe heart problems.

Not entirely sure weather their dosages where sensible back then or weather they ran too much primo and dbol and test for too long without a PCT and other supportive drugs.

I think that if you can afford to take AAS and build a better body, you can pay every penny that you can to make sure the adverse effects of AAS usage and make sure you are as safe as you can be with using sensible dosages, good PCT, HCG, etc the list goes on.

Not long ago, weather its true or not the thread about Lee Priest and his dosages of gear... which where very low. I think many people think that its nessessary to use far more than you need just because of the easy availbility and ease to stick another ml into your body.


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## hilly (Jan 19, 2008)

Interesting post as always J.

I think its impossible to tell as we all know people who abuse them yet have kids fin and no toehr health problems. I cant also see lifestyle having an effect on later T levels unless its an extreme lifestyle and even then. I mean my father has grafted all his life and ownes several companies before retiring at around 50. His body is generall run down and has several issues but its impossible to say what effects what.

I know a guy who has ran silly cycles more or less consistantly for the last 3 years and when he comes off its for 6 weeks with no pct meds at all. shrinks then worries and jumps back on cycle. he has just had his first child before xmas in his late twenties. his cycles include deca/tren 2gtether among other ones people would say do alot of damage to hpta


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## Mars (Aug 25, 2007)

The only precaution is not to do AAS, simple. And yes. of course short cycles at high doses also result in HPTA dysfunction.

I don't know how long iv'e been posting on the importance of ancilliaries on cycle (far more important than PCT itself) but most ppl have read at least one post where i mention something along the lines of "are you going to use a low dose AI and hCG on cycle". And how many fukin times do i see ppl post no, or, only use them if needed!!!!!


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## Robbyg (Feb 25, 2008)

Mars do you think HCG is important during a 6 week var cycle at 75mg or is that over the top ?


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## Shreds (Feb 3, 2010)

I take it mars that running a low dose AI on cycle is a good thing, i know for the obvious reasons for gyno, water, etc but estrogen regulates inflammitories in the body and clears up rashes, and things of that nature, i got a infected spot on my first cycle, during PCT i ran AI and SERM and obviously estrogen was blocked, body couldnt fight it and it lead to severe folliculitis.


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## Andy Dee (Jun 1, 2008)

mars1960 said:


> The only precaution is not to do AAS, simple. And yes. of course short cycles at high doses also result in HPTA dysfunction.
> 
> I don't know how long iv'e been posting on the importance of ancilliaries on cycle (far more important than PCT itself) but most ppl have read at least one post where i mention something along the lines of "are you going to use a low dose AI and hCG on cycle". *And how many fukin times do i see ppl post no, or, only use them if needed!!!!!*


Lol thats funny but its true It still makes me laugh in a sick sort of way thinking how sh1t its gonna be when people come off.

Good lord if only people could have been me for the past 3 months and felt how p1ss easy my recovery was thanks to an AI and HCG........Without PCT  after 8 months of being on btw

But i wont go into any details as everyone knows im just the 10 stone guy who knows fckall about anything anyway.



Dezw said:


> HCG is the stuff!
> 
> I will never use gear again without it, when used during a cycle one you come off it feels like you have nothing to recover as you haven't lost anything, well for me anyway.


Yes I am exactly the same as you.

This is what happens and what the result is when you administer AI's and HCG correctly.


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

HCG and aromataze inhibitors are vital for any cycle recovery surely, and constitute a form of PCT in themselves anyway?


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

Dtlv74 said:


> HCG and aromataze inhibitors are vital for any cycle recovery surely, and constitute a form of PCT in themselves anyway?


i've been cruise/blasting since 38.. am 40 now, and i've just had my "boys" checked and my prostate (*whimper*) and I have no enlarged prostate (phew!) and best of all, still fertile! while taking 1000mg test/week... i take 300iu HCG a day when on this level; I also alternate nolva/arimidex (nolva one day, arimi the next)... seems to be working out really well...

i call this TCT -through cycle therapy


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

Yeah for sure, any good 'P'CT should start during the cycle anyway.


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## Andy Dee (Jun 1, 2008)

ausbuilt said:


> i've been cruise/blasting since 38.. am 40 now, and i've just had my "boys" checked and my prostate (*whimper*) and I have no enlarged prostate (phew!) and best of all, still fertile! while taking 1000mg test/week... i take 300iu HCG a day when on this level; I also alternate nolva/arimidex (nolva one day, arimi the next)... seems to be working out really well...
> 
> i call this TCT -through cycle therapy


How come you take hcg on a daily basis mate rather than weekly??

I cant do cruising it just makes me full of sickness.


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## Mars (Aug 25, 2007)

cutoshreds said:


> *I take it mars that running a low dose AI on cycle is a good thing*, i know for the obvious reasons for gyno, water, etc but estrogen regulates inflammitories in the body and clears up rashes, and things of that nature, i got a infected spot on my first cycle, during PCT i ran AI and SERM and obviously estrogen was blocked, body couldnt fight it and it lead to severe folliculitis.


Yes it's good thing.

I'm not going to post the many benefits of keeping a good T > E ratio on cycle yet again lol as i don't understand what you mean when it comes to the *but* part of your post as we have already established many times that it's low dose that doesn't eliminate estrogen, we are just using an AI to control the excess estrogen .


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## Robbyg (Feb 25, 2008)

Is hcg just needed for an injectable cycle rather than a oral ?


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## Mars (Aug 25, 2007)

Robbyg said:


> Mars do you think HCG is important during a 6 week var cycle at 75mg or is that over the top ?





Robbyg said:


> Is hcg just needed for an injectable cycle rather than a oral ?


It isn't essential but personally i would still use it, CYP450 enzyme and all that as explained in the sticky.


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## Robbyg (Feb 25, 2008)

Thanks mate  would 500iu per week be good mate


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## Mars (Aug 25, 2007)

Yes that would be good mate.


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## Robbyg (Feb 25, 2008)

Cheers mars


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## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

Robbyg said:


> Thanks mate  would 500iu per week be good mate


Would proviron do a similar job?


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## Mars (Aug 25, 2007)

bayman said:


> Would proviron do a similar job?


Proviron is an AAS with mild anti-estrogenic properties, it's MOA is totally different to hCG.


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