# Dorian HIT training - if its so good why doesn't more BBers use it?!



## Chelsea (Sep 19, 2009)

As the title suggests. Been researching Dorians training as obviously he is a legend and all that but it was just making me think that if the HIT training is that good why is the volume training method preferred by so many more BBers/gym rats?

i know the intensity of the HIT is hard to achieve and thats prob why some people dont gain well from it but so many of the professionals all train pretty much the same way from what i can see (sets and reps wise) it begs the question... Why that and not HIT when dorian won 6 Olympia's


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## Quidlicker (Nov 18, 2010)

Chelsea said:


> As the title suggests. Been researching Dorians training as obviously he is a legend and all that but it was just making me think that if the HIT training is that good why is the volume training method preferred by so many more BBers/gym rats?
> 
> i know the intensity of the HIT is hard to achieve and thats prob why some people dont gain well from it but so many of the professionals all train pretty much the same way from what i can see (sets and reps wise) it begs the question... Why that and not HIT when dorian won 6 Olympia's


I don't think there is much of a difference between what dorian did and what the pros do now.

For example, here is how a chest day might have started for Dorian

Incline bench

60kgx12

100kgx10

140kgx8

180kgx7

Dorian then notes down that he has only done one work set i.e. HIT

Now what might Branch Warren do nowadays?

Incline bench

60kgx12

100kgx10

140kgx8

180kgx7

Branch then notes down that he has done 4 work sets i.e. volume training


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## Fatstuff (Mar 2, 2010)

well that dont make sense as dorian would be more like 2 x 100kg then 6 x 180 + 2 extra negatives


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## Fatstuff (Mar 2, 2010)

but to be honest - as long as people are training with some kind of intensity, they will grow and if u have the experience of the pro's u realise what works for you


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## JoePro (Aug 26, 2009)

Preference, some people do, some people don't.

In all fairness, Dorian's HIT is different to most... quite a lot of warm up sets before 1 all out really.


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## Fatstuff (Mar 2, 2010)

JoePro said:


> Preference, some people do, some people don't.
> 
> In all fairness, Dorian's HIT is different to most... quite a lot of warm up sets before 1 all out really.


what would non dorians HIT be (genuine question)


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## Wevans2303 (Feb 18, 2010)

Quidlicker I don't really think you understand what HIT is all about at all.

It's all about taking the absolute most amount of weight you can do for say (example) 10 reps and being absolutely sure you can get 10 and no more, that set would be the most brutal long and taxing set compared to a volume training set and there should be no way on earth you'd be able to do the same set in the same workout with the same intensity.

Same as doggcrapp, doing 1 set rest paused, absolutely beating the sh!t out of the muscle, making the set so brutal that it is all you need.

@fatmanstan the basic principle would still be the same, probably just be laid out differently in terms of whats trained when.


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## hsmann87 (Jun 22, 2010)

Chelsea said:


> As the title suggests. Been researching Dorians training as obviously he is a legend and all that but it was just making me think that if the HIT training is that good why is the volume training method preferred by so many more BBers/gym rats?
> 
> i know the intensity of the HIT is hard to achieve and thats prob why some people dont gain well from it but so many of the professionals all train pretty much the same way from what i can see (sets and reps wise) it begs the question... Why that and not HIT when dorian won 6 Olympia's


a) you need a training partner who is equally psycho as you and who will push you beyond belief...i am yet to have a training partner like Leyroy Davies

B) it is very hard to do in a busy gym in the evening when every man and his cat is training (especially these days as summer is fast approaching)...Dorian used to train at around 11am when the gym was moreorless empty

c) it requires an intensity level of what 95% of gym goers will probably never experience in their lifetime

thats what i reckon anyway


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## JoePro (Aug 26, 2009)

fatmanstan! said:


> what would non dorians HIT be (genuine question)


Well if you look at Mike Mentzer compared to Dorian you'll see the difference in training methods. Have a look around man, to me Dorians is just a basic split, 2-4 warm ups and 1 all out set.. I'm sure we hear that on most volume routines.

I'm waiting for Paycheck to get in here.


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## Barker (Oct 1, 2009)

Im just gonna get a quick question in about GVT here, is it really that brutal?

It's only 10 sets of 10? I mean for biceps and triceps i do 3 different exercises with 5 sets. So thats 15 sets of 8-12 reps?


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## hsmann87 (Jun 22, 2010)

its not that brutal mate

i think its good though for people who like to "switch their routine up from time to time jsut to keep it fresh" :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Chelsea (Sep 19, 2009)

hsmann87 said:


> a) you need a training partner who is equally psycho as you and who will push you beyond belief...i am yet to have a training partner like Leyroy Davies
> 
> finding one of them is like finding a needle in a stack of needles!!
> 
> ...


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## hsmann87 (Jun 22, 2010)

speaking of Leroy....

http://mdtv.musculardevelopment.com/pro-training/dorian-yates-dy-nutrition/3832-leroy-qdieselq-davis-trains-chest-still-hardcore.html

haha


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## Fatstuff (Mar 2, 2010)

i cant train HIT because my mate who i train with (infrequently, usually on my own) i have to keep telling him to stop taking the weight when he spots me, i feel like im nagging him every session - i always help him go past failure by helping on the positive half of the rep so he can control the negative, i dont feel i get the same help back he helps with the positive when ive still got 6 reps left grrrrrrr ......ranting


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## The Ultimate Warrior (Dec 20, 2010)

Hellllloo!!!

What the hells going on in here!!!

Ermmm Non Dorian HIT could be anything, High Intensity Training could mean basically anything, Intensity is basically a measurement, so it could be interpreted in many ways. Non Dorian HIT if you mean in terms of Mike Mentzer would be huge rest days, followed by super high intensity training for around 12 minutes, focusing on 2-4 exercises and only 1 actual working set.

What I would like to say is that alot of folks misinterprit the only one working set, if you spend some time researching you will see that the warm up sets can be as hard as SOME go for an actual working set. For example if your benching and your HIT set is going to be on 140k, theres no point in doing your warm up sets on 10k; 15; 20k, then 140k.

Depeding on how many warm up sets your doing the final warm up set is going to be a good set that you will struggle at the end. Then rest, then pound that high intesity!!!

In terms of why don't more bodybuilders use it, from my observations they do! Unfortunatly my knowledge only comes from videos, but I don't often see a bodybuilder doing really high reps, they train very hard!

Although some may not call it HIT, it will be in some ways a HIT routine, but adapted for them.


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## bigacb (Nov 13, 2007)

People use what works for them or more often how they have been shown. People only tend to use HIT when they know what it means and they they very rarely do it right. I do it because i can't be ar5d spending hours in the gym 30-45 minutes and i'm done. Happy days


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## The Ultimate Warrior (Dec 20, 2010)

On another note, people are impatient, they try HIT for a few weeks, get no results and say it doesn't work. High Intensity Training is so hard its unimaginable. You have to put everything aside, little headaches, little pains, thoughts, just throw it away, nothing matters but the weight that your about to lift. On the first rep your gonna feel like your going to throw up, but you get through it.

You will struggle immensly doing HIT on your own, although its not too hard to get someone to spot you for one set. Don't underestimate the intensity needed.

It could also be argued, something which I am yet to solidify my thoughts on that doing HIT doesn't allow enough gym time. What your aiming for in reality is ultimate muscular failure, and maximum muscular gains. Whether you do this in a few working sets, or hundreds and hundreds of lighter sets, eventually you will reach ultimate muscular failure. So if you enjoy lifting weights, you can be in the gym longer on high reps.

Again, that isn't all it comes down to, for example, nutrition, you have more time to eat and recover on HIT, rather than a 2 hour marathon, but theres loads of other issues like this that I can't be bothered to discuss.


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## Chelsea (Sep 19, 2009)

JPaycheck said:


> Hellllloo!!!
> 
> In terms of why don't more bodybuilders use it, from my observations they do! Unfortunatly my knowledge only comes from videos, but I don't often see a bodybuilder doing really high reps, they train very hard!
> 
> Although some may not call it HIT, it will be in some ways a HIT routine, but adapted for them.


you see from what i have seen of workout videos i.e coleman the unbelieveable, you always see ronnie repping sets of 12 out for 3-4 sets and the same with jay and all the top guys. i will agree that their intesity if far greater than the average bber down the gym obviously but what im trying to say is that maybe HIT training (2 warm up sets then 1 max working set with rest pause sets, negatives and forced reps) is dying out, especially on the pro scene.


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## The Ultimate Warrior (Dec 20, 2010)

Chelsea said:


> you see from what i have seen of workout videos i.e coleman the unbelieveable, you always see ronnie repping sets of 12 out for 3-4 sets and the same with jay and all the top guys. i will agree that their intesity if far greater than the average bber down the gym obviously but what im trying to say is that maybe HIT training (2 warm up sets then 1 max working set with rest pause sets, negatives and forced reps) is dying out, especially on the pro scene.


I'm not entirely sure that a HIT routine was ever greatly popular. Its always had doubts and negatives, but I can see what you mean.

I completly agree that the 2 warm ups and 1 working set with rest pause sets, negatives and forced reps is pretty much gone. I have seen rest pause, its been a long time since I've seen or heard of forced and negatives being used, so yes your right there.

In terms of why that training isn't used by the pros, I can only guess. And they would probably be pretty bad guesses. I assume that maybe some like to train more often and for longer. I assume that due to thier size they just continue to use what got them there. I assume that some probably don't like to train like that.

My greatest assumption would be that no-one really knows what the hell they do. The muscle magazines are just full of complete bull****. So when they give someones diet or training routine it won't be what they actually do. The videos and photos of them training are generally when they are in good shape, before a competition or something, its rare you will see a pro when he is fat and bloated in the offseason.

So they won't be able to train very efficiently when they are close to competition in a HIT manner anyway, so the videos you see are of them are when they can't lift thier heaviest.

Thats all just a massive assumption and ultimatly we will never know, but we can guess.


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## lukempt (Mar 11, 2011)

JPaycheck said:


> I'm not entirely sure that a HIT routine was ever greatly popular. Its always had doubts and negatives, but I can see what you mean.
> 
> I completly agree that the 2 warm ups and 1 working set with rest pause sets, negatives and forced reps is pretty much gone. I have seen rest pause, its been a long time since I've seen or heard of forced and negatives being used, so yes your right there.
> 
> ...


I think the key is the intensity and the form, if you can then get a really good weight on top of that then you're bound to be onto a winner. The next key thing is nutrition and that is where Dorian was also a master, he knew exactly when and how much to eat.


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## Guest (Apr 25, 2011)

a recent interview on md with john hodgson and branch warren (people who went to BGP will enjoy this, branch explains what happened with ronny rockel on stage!)

http://www.musculardevelopment.com/contests/11-brit-grand-prix/3069-branch-warren-talks-uk-yates-a-rockels-posedown-antics.html

branch said that hes tried dorians heavy duty approach but he just loves training in the gym for longer, hit training normally lasts about 45 mins-1 hr. and i think the same, i like training for as long as i can but still with intensity, i love the lifting as much as getting the physique.

and i definetely agree with hsmann87 that unless you have a good spotter in a decent gym then it would be hard to get that intensity. but for those who think heavy duty is intense try trevor smiths beyond failure training! fckin brutal lol


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## Guest (Apr 25, 2011)

JPaycheck said:


> I'm not entirely sure that a HIT routine was ever greatly popular. Its always had doubts and negatives, but I can see what you mean.
> 
> I completly agree that the 2 warm ups and 1 working set with rest pause sets, negatives and forced reps is pretty much gone. I have seen rest pause, its been a long time since I've seen or heard of forced and negatives being used, so yes your right there.
> 
> ...


def agree, alot of mags showed jay cutler doing 5 or 6 sets per exercise but in his dvd most of those sets were progressively heavier warm up sets NOT taken to absolute failure, only 1 or 2 were to failure and most of the time it was just 1 set and he even said that you cant do all your sets to absolute failure. i think dorians reasoning is sound and makes perfect sense and even studies have shown that 1 set to all out failure yields the same result as 3 sets to failure (although i think studies can be conducted to pretty much prove or disprove anything tbh) but reaching all out failure is difficult to do without a good spotter.


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## lukempt (Mar 11, 2011)

ricky23 said:


> def agree, alot of mags showed jay cutler doing 5 or 6 sets per exercise but in his dvd most of those sets were progressively heavier warm up sets NOT taken to absolute failure, only 1 or 2 were to failure and most of the time it was just 1 set and he even said that you cant do all your sets to absolute failure. i think dorians reasoning is sound and makes perfect sense and even studies have shown that 1 set to all out failure yields the same result as 3 sets to failure (although i think studies can be conducted to pretty much prove or disprove anything tbh) but reaching all out failure is difficult to do without a good spotter.


I think the key is that to go absolute failure takes so much effort surely another set would not be possible to the same intensity. I do know what Branch means though too by saying if you're enjoying a session it's hard to leave after just 45 mins. I try to take Dorian's principle of all out effort in one key set but also have lots of variety to hit the muscle from different angles etc


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## Guest (Apr 25, 2011)

lukempt said:


> I think the key is that to go absolute failure takes so much effort surely another set would not be possible to the same intensity. I do know what Branch means though too by saying if you're enjoying a session it's hard to leave after just 45 mins. I try to take Dorian's principle of all out effort in one key set but also have lots of variety to hit the muscle from different angles etc


exactly, going to absolute failure should mean that the following set cant be done with the same intensity meaning its a redundant set, most pros dont go to dorians lengths of failure thats why volume would be better if that intensity cant be achieved. without a good spotter the only way to achieve that intensity would be rest pause and drop sets and for most thats a recipe for injury.


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## W415HY (Apr 25, 2011)

Hi all, I've been following the forum for a couple of days now after recommendation from a mate after talking about Dorian Yates the other day. (Lukempt was that you?  )

I am a long admirer of Dorian's training programmes (probably as my dad trained with Dorian a couple of times). I have recently started his 2 warm up sets (1 easy and 1 moderate strain) with 1 set of working to complete failure. The key for me as Lukempt says is the form and technique, this is facilitated by having a mentally tough and knowledgeable training partner).

I have often been slack when it comes to weight training through various reasons e.g football commitments, university commitments, however thats me cluthing at straws for excuses. With a month of solid training then slacking off and the cycle continues.

However, with no other commitments I've been committed to Dorians 2 warm up and 1 failure sets with 2 days on and 1 day off.

Day 1 Chest and Biceps,

Day 2 Back and Traps, Day 3 rest

Day 4 Delts and Triceps

Day 5 Legs

Day 6 rest and repeat cycle. If I need a rest I will have an extra day off.

I am going into my second week of the cycle and my muscle memory is returning which is good news, and I'm feeling the gains already in mass, with a good nutritional diet, which is absolutely key if your looking to gain mass in my eyes.

I feel the 1 working set is perfectly fine, as I have a highly encouraging and motivated gym partner (when he decides to turn up) and I do rep to failure at a high intensity, I know for a fact I wouldn't be able to replicate the the same intensity required if I was to do another working set to failure.

I look forward to seeing hints, tips and welcome advice along the way as I will mostly likely use this forum more frequently.

No pain no gain! Go hard or go home!

Walshy


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## The Ultimate Warrior (Dec 20, 2010)

W415HY said:


> Hi all, I've been following the forum for a couple of days now after recommendation from a mate after talking about Dorian Yates the other day. (Lukempt was that you?  )
> 
> I am a long admirer of Dorian's training programmes (probably as my dad trained with Dorian a couple of times). I have recently started his 2 warm up sets (1 easy and 1 moderate strain) with 1 set of working to complete failure. The key for me as Lukempt says is the form and technique, this is facilitated by having a mentally tough and knowledgeable training partner).
> 
> ...


WELCOME! We certainly need more high intensity advocates on this board, so glad to have you here.


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## james12345 (Jan 13, 2010)

hsmann87 said:


> a) you need a training partner who is equally psycho as you and who will push you beyond belief...i am yet to have a training partner like Leyroy Davies
> 
> *Leroy is certainly one of a kind lol.*
> 
> ...


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## kash77 (Mar 20, 2011)

i personally have incorporated diffrent training styles in to my regime i use dorians method of bursting through a rep like say the bench press you would push it hard and as fast as you can to the top then hold and bring down slowly . but at the end of my workout i do it jay cutler style FTS 7 try and do seven sets of 10 reps with just enough weight for a 10 sec rest between each set now thats a killer and i find it definetley works and makes you stronger with rounder muscle bellies .


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## big_jim_87 (Jul 9, 2009)

Out of all of the bbers and gym rats that use volume training, who looks like Yates?


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## 36-26 (Jun 30, 2009)

big_jim_87 said:


> Out of all of the bbers and gym rats that use volume training, who looks like Yates?


Out of all the Gym rats that use HIT training, how many look like Serge Nubret, Branch Warren, Flex Wheeler etc, it works both ways


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## Big Dawg (Feb 24, 2008)

Probably the most simple answer is that the majority of pros and other gym goers use volume training, and as we all know most people just copy other people instead of analysing the logic behind anything they do. It's probably a poor decision as most pros and gym goers are all pretty much winging it (Dorian and maybe a couple of others excluded), with the pros simply having better genetics a lot of the time. Most people don't go to the gym with any sense of purpose - they do 4 exercises of 4 sets of 10 reps because that's what they see everyone else do. Simple really. It's going to work to an extent, but they could probably gain more muscle in a shorter space of time by training more efficiently.


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## MRENIGMA (Apr 29, 2011)

Well said. When i spoke to Dorian he said this is why after 2years people stop gaining and just stay the same as they don't train with intensity, whether it be Weight or Reps.

Dorian is without a doubt the most intense trainer ever, with his sh!t or bust training philosophy, Just remember this lead to him sustaining alot of injuries which if you speak to him now he will say unless your going to be MR Olympia it simple isn't worth the risk or sacrifice, his philosophy worked but at a cost.

Also to note, even though he ended up training HIT 1 set to failure, their was still 10years of normal "non Dorian" HIT training using high volume which no one seems to be aware of, before he ended up with his HIT method late in his career. Dorian started out using 3set per exercise, going up to 4sets and then to 5sets and realised the bigger and stronger he and the weight got the less was required, instead of more, people have this idea he walked in the gym started HIT from day 1 and done that for 16/17 years, which simply is not the case.


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## The Ultimate Warrior (Dec 20, 2010)

MRENIGMA said:


> Well said. When i spoke to Dorian he said this is why after 2years people stop gaining and just stay the same as they don't train with intensity, whether it be Weight or Reps.
> 
> Dorian is without a doubt the most intense trainer ever, with his sh!t or bust training philosophy, Just remember this lead to him sustaining alot of injuries which if you speak to him now he will say unless your going to be MR Olympia it simple isn't worth the risk or sacrifice, his philosophy worked but at a cost.
> 
> Also to note, even though he ended up training HIT 1 set to failure, their was still 10years of normal "non Dorian" HIT training using high volume which no one seems to be aware of, before he ended up with his HIT method late in his career. Dorian started out using 3set per exercise, going up to 4sets and then to 5sets and realised the bigger and stronger he and the weight got the less was required, instead of more, people have this idea he walked in the gym started HIT from day 1 and done that for 16/17 years, which simply is not the case.


Actually thats not true.

Dorian was heavily influenced by Mike Mentzer in his younger days. If you read "One more rep" by John Little, who was friends with Mike Mentzer and has written a few books with and on him, you will see that Dorian trained breifly in a 4 day split method, but after a week wasn't able to recover so reverted back to the HIT methods.


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## MRENIGMA (Apr 29, 2011)

Please....Dont take my opinion, ask the man himself, that is what he told me, from the horses mouth! I'm aware Mike mentzers method made sense to him so he adopted but that doesn't change the fact he trained using volume prior, thats what he told me anyway so i'll take his word over yours.

On a side note, your on MT aren't you paycheck?


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## The Ultimate Warrior (Dec 20, 2010)

MRENIGMA said:


> Please....Dont take my opinion, ask the man himself, that is what he told me, from the horses mouth! I'm aware Mike mentzers method made sense to him so he adopted but that doesn't change the fact he trained using volume prior, thats what he told me anyway so i'll take his word over yours.
> 
> On a side note, your on MT aren't you paycheck?


Yep I am, well I was, I don't post there really anymore, it's too boring for my liking.

It comes down to the old bodybuilders just talk complete bullsh1t, but I much prefer to believe the in-depth interview done by John Little. I have actually read a number of interviews and accounts of the same information that I have posted. Unfortunatly due to your encounter being in person with no hard evidence I can't believe it personally, but hey, if thats what he said to you, then thats all that matters.


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## Wells (Oct 25, 2010)




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## MRENIGMA (Apr 29, 2011)

Jpaycheck - his gym is only in Birmingham, if your a fan it's worth the trip no matter where in the UK your from, like i say, i wouldn't expect you to believe nor would i want you to, ask for yourself. In the manner i asked i said did you always train with the HIT approach from when you started and he replied "No, i started with the usual 3 sets etc and went up to 5sets per exercise and realised i was not recovering as the weights i lifted got heavier so he went on to mike mentzers approach which made sense to him" what i'm saying is we just see the end result and think it was all down to that which built his physique, and it was all his years off training in the melting pot, not just the time frame in which he stuck to mentzers approach.


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## The Ultimate Warrior (Dec 20, 2010)

MRENIGMA said:



> Jpaycheck - his gym is only in Birmingham, if your a fan it's worth the trip no matter where in the UK your from, like i say, i wouldn't expect you to believe nor would i want you to, ask for yourself. In the manner i asked i said did you always train with the HIT approach from when you started and he replied "No, i started with the usual 3 sets etc and went up to 5sets per exercise and realised i was not recovering as the weights i lifted got heavier so he went on to mike mentzers approach which made sense to him" what i'm saying is we just see the end result and think it was all down to that which built his physique, and it was all his years off training in the melting pot, not just the time frame in which he stuck to mentzers approach.


In this case we are agreeing, you said he trained high volume for 10 years.

We are agreeing mate, don't worry.


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## MRENIGMA (Apr 29, 2011)

Maybe a slight exaggeration in my part LOL, but i was just highlighting in the grand scheme of things it all has to take credit.


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## Doug9x (Dec 27, 2010)

I've read up about and would love to use a HIT approach. I have ran two sessions of it and loved it (with an intense training partner). However, for most of the year, I have no training partner - so it becomes very hard to reach the level of muscle failure required in order to make full use of HIT. Which is personally what puts me off.

Interesting thread too - Am planning to train at temple gym come July 2011 (for the year), so will be interesting to see if any aid is available there to have a good spotter/Dorians son and so on to aid with a few working sets per workout.


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## powerhousepeter (Dec 4, 2010)

i love h.i.t used many of dorians routines and done the mentzer ones, but i also enjoy powerlifting so i try to mix it ever so many weeks.

its all about the intensity, took me a while to find the right weight reps etc, but now if i do a set of squats or even deads the intensity is that high there is no way i could do another set, took me a while to get to that though


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## Jack92 (Aug 23, 2010)

i think ive been massivley over-training, cuz i train every set until failure, and i ususally include a drop set or partials etc in the lst set of 2 exercises per workout. :S


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