# T3 cycling while on aas



## need2bodybuild

Hi people, I was wondering if anyone has done this as i know t3 gives you a faster metabolism and utilizes nutrients quicker/more efficiently.

I'd like to here from people who have done this and want to know how much better in terms of gains it is as opposed to cycling aas alone.

Cheers!


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## QuadFather94

I would also like to know this so bummmmp


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## Little_Jay

effects protein turn over for the better i think, so yes its better, and helps keep lean

thats my understading of it anyway


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## ausbuilt

first look at thyroid:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thyroid

where it says: "...The thyroid gland controls how quickly the body uses energy, makes proteins, and controls how sensitive the body should be to other hormones..."

Then look at PTOR:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protein_turnover

where it says "...Protein turnover (also known as protein accretion) is the balance between protein synthesis and protein degradation. More synthesis than breakdown indicates an anabolic state that builds lean tissues, more breakdown than synthesis indicates a catabolic state that burns lean tissues..."

now taking additional T3 will INCREASE the Protein turnover RATE... ie more will be synthesised (i.e muscle built) AND degraded (i.e muscle stripped down).

Keeping in mind this is happening faster.... how do you TIP THE BALANCE to anabolism? If you did this, then protein would be SYNTHESISED faster.. i.e muscle built faster..

Well there are two methods:

1. Insulin:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insulin

where it says, under "physilogical effects":

-Control of cellular intake of certain substances, most prominently glucose in muscle and adipose tissue (about two-thirds of body cells)

-*Increase* of DNA replication and *protein synthesis via control of amino acid uptake*

2. AAS:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anabolic_steroid

where it says under "mechanism of action":

"...The effect of anabolic steroids on muscle mass is caused in at least two ways:[22] first, they increase the production of proteins; second, they reduce recovery time by blocking the effects of stress hormone cortisol on muscle tissue, so that catabolism of muscle is greatly reduced. It has been hypothesized that this reduction in muscle breakdown may occur through anabolic steroids inhibiting the action of other steroid hormones called glucocorticoids that promote the breakdown of muscles.[23] Anabolic steroids also affect the number of cells that develop into fat-storage cells, by favouring cellular differentiation into muscle cells instead.[24] Anabolic steroids can also decrease fat by increasing basal metabolic rate (BMR), since an increase in muscle mass increases BMR..."

Now you see if you take either AAS or Insulin, you make the body ANABOLIC, as they both INCREASE protein production FROM available amino acids; supplemental T3 will increase the rate amino acids are available, as well as increasing the rate damaged muscle are torn down (to be replaced with new muscle).

However, there is synergy between all of these, so if you take T3, AAS+ 'slin you will see more benefit than 2 out of 3.. or 1 out of 3...

some say they have tried t3 with AAS and not noticed much difference- I would say, not enough used... 100mcg day 2on/2off is probably about right (and no thats NOT for cutting..)

Think about this.. 10mg of d-bol is considered the FULL replacement dose of androgens for men... 100mg/day proviron is given by some doctors as TRT for men in their 50s instead of test..

Who takes 10mg of d-bol/day? most I know use 50-80mg... or 5-8x the full replacement androgen dose..

Now for trt, test is usually prescribed at about 250mg/3weeks.... most use 500mg/week for BB, thats.. 6x the TRT dose...

So lets average this and say most AAS users are at about 6x the trt dose of AAS for BB purposes..

now lets look at T3- 26mcg is produced normally; you're taking 6x the normal amount of AAS (so from a protein synthesis perspective, at LEAST 6x better thanormal)... so roughly 6x the T3 level would be 150mcg.. thats what I'm doing 2on/2off at the moment (but I'm dieting), if I was bulking, i may consider dropping this to 100mcg, but not less...

from an insulin perspective, if doing 10iu/3x day, i'd def keep at 150mcg T3.. and add in 200mcg T4 as well- its not the optimal ratio, but with the high carb intake, if extra T3 is required, T4 will convert if available (doesnt' happen on low carb diets, so no point adding in when on low carbs)

Theres my thoughts/usage based on my research so far... not saying this is engraved in stone, simply up for discussion!


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## JANIKvonD

ausbuilt said:


> first look at thyroid:
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thyroid
> 
> where it says: "...The thyroid gland controls how quickly the body uses energy, makes proteins, and controls how sensitive the body should be to other hormones..."
> 
> Then look at PTOR:
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protein_turnover
> 
> where it says "...Protein turnover (also known as protein accretion) is the balance between protein synthesis and protein degradation. More synthesis than breakdown indicates an anabolic state that builds lean tissues, more breakdown than synthesis indicates a catabolic state that burns lean tissues..."
> 
> now taking additional T3 will INCREASE the Protein turnover RATE... ie more will be synthesised (i.e muscle built) AND degraded (i.e muscle stripped down).
> 
> Keeping in mind this is happening faster.... how do you TIP THE BALANCE to anabolism? If you did this, then protein would be SYNTHESISED faster.. i.e muscle built faster..
> 
> Well there are two methods:
> 
> 1. Insulin:
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insulin
> 
> where it says, under "physilogical effects":
> 
> -Control of cellular intake of certain substances, most prominently glucose in muscle and adipose tissue (about two-thirds of body cells)
> 
> -*Increase* of DNA replication and *protein synthesis via control of amino acid uptake*
> 
> 2. AAS:
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anabolic_steroid
> 
> where it says under "mechanism of action":
> 
> "...The effect of anabolic steroids on muscle mass is caused in at least two ways:[22] first, they increase the production of proteins; second, they reduce recovery time by blocking the effects of stress hormone cortisol on muscle tissue, so that catabolism of muscle is greatly reduced. It has been hypothesized that this reduction in muscle breakdown may occur through anabolic steroids inhibiting the action of other steroid hormones called glucocorticoids that promote the breakdown of muscles.[23] Anabolic steroids also affect the number of cells that develop into fat-storage cells, by favouring cellular differentiation into muscle cells instead.[24] Anabolic steroids can also decrease fat by increasing basal metabolic rate (BMR), since an increase in muscle mass increases BMR..."
> 
> Now you see if you take either AAS or Insulin, you make the body catabolic, as they both INCREASE protein production FROM available amino acids; supplemental T3 will increase the rate amino acids are available, as well as increasing the rate damaged muscle are torn down (to be replaced with new muscle).
> 
> However, there is synergy between all of these, so if you take T3, AAS+ 'slin you will see more benefit than 2 out of 3.. or 1 out of 3...
> 
> some say they have tried t3 with AAS and not noticed much difference- I would say, not enough used... 100mcg day 2on/2off is probably about right (and no thats NOT for cutting..)
> 
> Think about this.. 10mg of d-bol is considered the FULL replacement dose of androgens for men... 100mg/day proviron is given by some doctors as TRT for men in their 50s instead of test..
> 
> Who takes 10mg of d-bol/day? most I know use 50-80mg... or 5-8x the full replacement androgen dose..
> 
> Now for trt, test is usually prescribed at about 250mg/3weeks.... most use 500mg/week for BB, thats.. 6x the TRT dose...
> 
> So lets average this and say most AAS users are at about 6x the trt dose of AAS for BB purposes..
> 
> now lets look at T3- 26mcg is produced normally; you're taking 6x the normal amount of AAS (so from a protein synthesis perspective, at LEAST 6x better thanormal)... so roughly 6x the T3 level would be 150mcg.. thats what I'm doing 2on/2off at the moment (but I'm dieting), if I was bulking, i may consider dropping this to 100mcg, but not less...
> 
> from an insulin perspective, if doing 10iu/3x day, i'd def keep at 150mcg T3.. and add in 200mcg T4 as well- its not the optimal ratio, but with the high carb intake, if extra T3 is required, T4 will convert if available (doesnt' happen on low carb diets, so no point adding in when on low carbs)
> 
> Theres my thoughts/usage based on my research so far... not saying this is engraved in stone, simply up for discussion!


Damn man lol. How's that sticky comin on?


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## QuadFather94

ausbuilt said:


> first look at thyroid:
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thyroid
> 
> where it says: "...The thyroid gland controls how quickly the body uses energy, makes proteins, and controls how sensitive the body should be to other hormones..."
> 
> Then look at PTOR:
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protein_turnover
> 
> where it says "...Protein turnover (also known as protein accretion) is the balance between protein synthesis and protein degradation. More synthesis than breakdown indicates an anabolic state that builds lean tissues, more breakdown than synthesis indicates a catabolic state that burns lean tissues..."
> 
> now taking additional T3 will INCREASE the Protein turnover RATE... ie more will be synthesised (i.e muscle built) AND degraded (i.e muscle stripped down).
> 
> Keeping in mind this is happening faster.... how do you TIP THE BALANCE to anabolism? If you did this, then protein would be SYNTHESISED faster.. i.e muscle built faster..
> 
> Well there are two methods:
> 
> 1. Insulin:
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insulin
> 
> where it says, under "physilogical effects":
> 
> -Control of cellular intake of certain substances, most prominently glucose in muscle and adipose tissue (about two-thirds of body cells)
> 
> -*Increase* of DNA replication and *protein synthesis via control of amino acid uptake*
> 
> 2. AAS:
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anabolic_steroid
> 
> where it says under "mechanism of action":
> 
> "...The effect of anabolic steroids on muscle mass is caused in at least two ways:[22] first, they increase the production of proteins; second, they reduce recovery time by blocking the effects of stress hormone cortisol on muscle tissue, so that catabolism of muscle is greatly reduced. It has been hypothesized that this reduction in muscle breakdown may occur through anabolic steroids inhibiting the action of other steroid hormones called glucocorticoids that promote the breakdown of muscles.[23] Anabolic steroids also affect the number of cells that develop into fat-storage cells, by favouring cellular differentiation into muscle cells instead.[24] Anabolic steroids can also decrease fat by increasing basal metabolic rate (BMR), since an increase in muscle mass increases BMR..."
> 
> Now you see if you take either AAS or Insulin, you make the body catabolic, as they both INCREASE protein production FROM available amino acids; supplemental T3 will increase the rate amino acids are available, as well as increasing the rate damaged muscle are torn down (to be replaced with new muscle).
> 
> However, there is synergy between all of these, so if you take T3, AAS+ 'slin you will see more benefit than 2 out of 3.. or 1 out of 3...
> 
> some say they have tried t3 with AAS and not noticed much difference- I would say, not enough used... 100mcg day 2on/2off is probably about right (and no thats NOT for cutting..)
> 
> Think about this.. 10mg of d-bol is considered the FULL replacement dose of androgens for men... 100mg/day proviron is given by some doctors as TRT for men in their 50s instead of test..
> 
> Who takes 10mg of d-bol/day? most I know use 50-80mg... or 5-8x the full replacement androgen dose..
> 
> Now for trt, test is usually prescribed at about 250mg/3weeks.... most use 500mg/week for BB, thats.. 6x the TRT dose...
> 
> So lets average this and say most AAS users are at about 6x the trt dose of AAS for BB purposes..
> 
> now lets look at T3- 26mcg is produced normally; you're taking 6x the normal amount of AAS (so from a protein synthesis perspective, at LEAST 6x better thanormal)... so roughly 6x the T3 level would be 150mcg.. thats what I'm doing 2on/2off at the moment (but I'm dieting), if I was bulking, i may consider dropping this to 100mcg, but not less...
> 
> from an insulin perspective, if doing 10iu/3x day, i'd def keep at 150mcg T3.. and add in 200mcg T4 as well- its not the optimal ratio, but with the high carb intake, if extra T3 is required, T4 will convert if available (doesnt' happen on low carb diets, so no point adding in when on low carbs)
> 
> Theres my thoughts/usage based on my research so far... not saying this is engraved in stone, simply up for discussion!


Awesome read thanks for that mate, great info


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## need2bodybuild

ausbuilt said:


> first look at thyroid:
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thyroid
> 
> where it says: "...The thyroid gland controls how quickly the body uses energy, makes proteins, and controls how sensitive the body should be to other hormones..."
> 
> Then look at PTOR:
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protein_turnover
> 
> where it says "...Protein turnover (also known as protein accretion) is the balance between protein synthesis and protein degradation. More synthesis than breakdown indicates an anabolic state that builds lean tissues, more breakdown than synthesis indicates a catabolic state that burns lean tissues..."
> 
> now taking additional T3 will INCREASE the Protein turnover RATE... ie more will be synthesised (i.e muscle built) AND degraded (i.e muscle stripped down).
> 
> Keeping in mind this is happening faster.... how do you TIP THE BALANCE to anabolism? If you did this, then protein would be SYNTHESISED faster.. i.e muscle built faster..
> 
> Well there are two methods:
> 
> 1. Insulin:
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insulin
> 
> where it says, under "physilogical effects":
> 
> -Control of cellular intake of certain substances, most prominently glucose in muscle and adipose tissue (about two-thirds of body cells)
> 
> -*Increase* of DNA replication and *protein synthesis via control of amino acid uptake*
> 
> 2. AAS:
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anabolic_steroid
> 
> where it says under "mechanism of action":
> 
> "...The effect of anabolic steroids on muscle mass is caused in at least two ways:[22] first, they increase the production of proteins; second, they reduce recovery time by blocking the effects of stress hormone cortisol on muscle tissue, so that catabolism of muscle is greatly reduced. It has been hypothesized that this reduction in muscle breakdown may occur through anabolic steroids inhibiting the action of other steroid hormones called glucocorticoids that promote the breakdown of muscles.[23] Anabolic steroids also affect the number of cells that develop into fat-storage cells, by favouring cellular differentiation into muscle cells instead.[24] Anabolic steroids can also decrease fat by increasing basal metabolic rate (BMR), since an increase in muscle mass increases BMR..."
> 
> Now you see if you take either AAS or Insulin, you make the body ANABOLIC, as they both INCREASE protein production FROM available amino acids; supplemental T3 will increase the rate amino acids are available, as well as increasing the rate damaged muscle are torn down (to be replaced with new muscle).
> 
> However, there is synergy between all of these, so if you take T3, AAS+ 'slin you will see more benefit than 2 out of 3.. or 1 out of 3...
> 
> some say they have tried t3 with AAS and not noticed much difference- I would say, not enough used... 100mcg day 2on/2off is probably about right (and no thats NOT for cutting..)
> 
> Think about this.. 10mg of d-bol is considered the FULL replacement dose of androgens for men... 100mg/day proviron is given by some doctors as TRT for men in their 50s instead of test..
> 
> Who takes 10mg of d-bol/day? most I know use 50-80mg... or 5-8x the full replacement androgen dose..
> 
> Now for trt, test is usually prescribed at about 250mg/3weeks.... most use 500mg/week for BB, thats.. 6x the TRT dose...
> 
> So lets average this and say most AAS users are at about 6x the trt dose of AAS for BB purposes..
> 
> now lets look at T3- 26mcg is produced normally; you're taking 6x the normal amount of AAS (so from a protein synthesis perspective, at LEAST 6x better thanormal)... so roughly 6x the T3 level would be 150mcg.. thats what I'm doing 2on/2off at the moment (but I'm dieting), if I was bulking, i may consider dropping this to 100mcg, but not less...
> 
> from an insulin perspective, if doing 10iu/3x day, i'd def keep at 150mcg T3.. and add in 200mcg T4 as well- its not the optimal ratio, but with the high carb intake, if extra T3 is required, T4 will convert if available (doesnt' happen on low carb diets, so no point adding in when on low carbs)
> 
> Theres my thoughts/usage based on my research so far... not saying this is engraved in stone, simply up for discussion!


Fantastic info, thanks alot! I take it there aren't a hell of alot of poeple who use t3 on aas if bulking atm? I only here of people using it to cut.

Perhaps soon there will be alot more people using it regardless of wheather they are cutting or bulking.

Thanks again.


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## ausbuilt

need2bodybuild said:


> Fantastic info, thanks alot! I take it there aren't a hell of alot of poeple who use t3 on aas if bulking atm? I only here of people using it to cut.
> 
> Perhaps soon there will be alot more people using it regardless of wheather they are cutting or bulking.
> 
> Thanks again.


its more common than you think with the pros in the USA...not a recent thing... well known since about 2001... but seems to not really hit the boards much.. somehow on the net every talks about "knowing someone" whos thyroid "shut down" but its an urban myth.. no one has ever posted up their blood tests to show this...


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## ah24

ausbuilt said:


> its more common than you think with the pros in the USA...not a recent thing... well known since about 2001... but seems to not really hit the boards much.. somehow on the net every talks about "knowing someone" whos thyroid "shut down" but its an urban myth.. no one has ever posted up their blood tests to show this...


How long typically would you run T3 like this for? Every case is different obviously, but for example, would you run it during your bulking cycle - then once the cycle has finished, cease T3 use immediately?

This is the first time I've actually seen the reasoning behind why adding T3 to a cycle can be beneficial. Interesting stuff, thanks! 

Also, to save you explaining (as I'm guessing you've done it before on here), do you have a link where I can do some reading on the theory of T3 2on/2off as only read this on clen?!


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## ausbuilt

ah24 said:


> How long typically would you run T3 like this for? Every case is different obviously, but for example, would you run it during your bulking cycle - then once the cycle has finished, cease T3 use immediately?
> 
> This is the first time I've actually seen the reasoning behind why adding T3 to a cycle can be beneficial. Interesting stuff, thanks!
> 
> Also, to save you explaining (as I'm guessing you've done it before on here), do you have a link where I can do some reading on the theory of T3 2on/2off as only read this on clen?!


I use 150mcg of T3 (plus 300mcg T4) when dieting (and taking HGH, but no T4 if not on HGH) and the same when bulking with 'slin; if no 'slin then only 50-100mcg T3.

I basically have started to see the T3/T4 supplementation as an all year thing to optimise metabolism...

the idea of running short on/off periods generally is that the body doesn't react that fast; i've talked about this before, both for clen & T3; you may be able to run 3-4days on, 2 off, or even 5 on, 3off, but its hard to predict the point your body does adjust- so 2on/2of is simple and effective.


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## need2bodybuild

Aus, would you say that in terms of downregulation and rebound, running t3 2on/2off for say 5 months would be safe??


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## ausbuilt

need2bodybuild said:


> Aus, would you say that in terms of downregulation and rebound, running t3 2on/2off for say 5 months would be safe??


yes I would.. thats kind of the whole point...


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## need2bodybuild

ausbuilt said:


> yes I would.. thats kind of the whole point...


Good to hear, cheers!


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## ungeheuer

do you recommand any timing ? or do you just spread out the dose trough the day ? i also read not to take it 2 hours before or after Kalium (?) consumption / milk/dairy.

i currently do some leangains style if, so i get my first meal at 12:30. for best fat loss would it be best to take the whole dose t3 in the morning with my eca caps ? or split the dose for a better recomp (morning/afternoon pre workout).

thanks in advance !


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## gauntlet

aus. im under the impression t3+t4 will increase my bmr 10-15%, and in my case im really struggling to exceed 5500kcal/day.

wouldnt this increase of bmr effectively shift my balance of kcal in vs kcal out toward weight loss unless i went apesh1t with the calories?


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## need2bodybuild

^^^^^Whole dose in the morning 30 mins before food.

@ungeheuer


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## need2bodybuild

gauntlet said:


> aus. im under the impression t3+t4 will increase my bmr 10-15%, and in my case im really struggling to exceed 5500kcal/day.
> 
> wouldnt this increase of bmr effectively shift my balance of kcal in vs kcal out toward weight loss unless i went apesh1t with the calories?


I'd like to know this also!


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## ausbuilt

ungeheuer said:


> do you recommand any timing ? or do you just spread out the dose trough the day ? i also read not to take it 2 hours before or after Kalium (?) consumption / milk/dairy.
> 
> i currently do some leangains style if, so i get my first meal at 12:30. for best fat loss would it be best to take the whole dose t3 in the morning with my eca caps ? or split the dose for a better recomp (morning/afternoon pre workout).
> 
> thanks in advance !


you take thyroid meds on an empty stomach, at least 30mins before food.



gauntlet said:


> aus. im under the impression t3+t4 will increase my bmr 10-15%, and in my case im really struggling to exceed 5500kcal/day.
> 
> wouldnt this increase of bmr effectively shift my balance of kcal in vs kcal out toward weight loss unless i went apesh1t with the calories?


no where near this amount of metabolic increase- prob 3-5% with clen.

I fail to believe anyone struggles to exceed 5,500cals- use Muscle Milk as your protein powder, or add MCT to your current protein powder, as well as adding maltodextrin if required... each shake can be 750+cals.. for a start.. have a macdonalds meal (burger+fries+shake) and exceed 1500cals in one meal..


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## gauntlet

> no where near this amount of metabolic increase- prob 3-5% with clen.
> 
> I fail to believe anyone struggles to exceed 5,500cals- use Muscle Milk as your protein powder, or add MCT to your current protein powder, as well as adding maltodextrin if required... each shake can be 750+cals.. for a start.. have a macdonalds meal (burger+fries+shake) and exceed 1500cals in one meal..


ok thanks thats good to know.

lateley ive been mixing my shakes into milk + 100g of olive oil + oats, it gives me an easy 1200kcal+, the problem seems to be motility based diarreah, from the volume of food i eat.

at the risk of derailing, ive been meaning to ask you, if i were to begin using insulin, would i have to substitute such large amounts of dietary fat for carbs? im aware that the lipid hypothesis is incorrect, but im not entireley sure how insulins role as a storage hormone pertains to fat..... is the reason for so many users taking on low fat meals pureley due to the effects of lipid on carb absorbtion?

cheers.


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## Naneek

Very usefull info guys, thanks for your time and effort on this post. :thumb:


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