# How to Grow



## big

HOW TO GROW

Most people are frustrated with their lack of progress in bodybuilding. Here's a brief outline of my options/recommendations for how best to succeed.

TRAINING

------------

The best training method is dual-factor training. However, this is complicated, and in general for people with less than 2-3 years lifting experience who can't yet deadlift over twice their bodyweight, this is overkill. HUGE gains can be made on a simple single-factor low volume routine with progressive resistance for a long period of time for most people, without the need for dual-factor. Since the vast majority of people are in a chronically overtrained state, a brief deload period is required, followed by a two-day split intense training routine, such as this:

Mon

----

Flat Bench Press 2 x 8

Parallel Barbell Rows 2 x 8

Weighted Chins 2 x 8

Standing Military Press 2 x 8

Thurs

------

Back Squats ATF 2 x 8

Stiff-Legged Deadlifts 2 x 8

Calf raise 2 x 10

Weighted ab crunch (hold dumbell on your chest) 2 x 10

These don't include warm-ups, of which you should do a few progressive sets that don't tire you out, but instead warm you up and get your CNS stimulated. Remember to stretch also. The exercise order and reps can be tweaked of course, but do NOT add in a bunch of isolation exercises. Isolation work is great for a 250lbs+ bodybuilder looking to bring up a weak body part, but for the average circa 200lbs lifter who wants to get huge, you don't need to "tone" your biceps with endless curls. You need serious exercises that pack on serious mass... that is compound work like deads and squats - so do NOT swap out squats for leg press or similar. And do NOT add extra volume, or do any "burn-out" sets to feel a pump. Feeling like you've worked a muscle is a false sense of progress. ALL that matters is that you're keeping form strict with full ROM and are adding weight to the bar each week.

Which brings me to the key to the success of this routine - progressive resistance. That is, continually adding small amounts of weight each week. To get bigger, you need to get stronger. Adding small weights each week add up. Adding 1-2kg/week to your squat won't seem to make much difference on a week-to-week basis, but over the course of a year, that's an extra 50-100kg (along with the extra mass to match). That's immense.

Start off with weights that are easy to hit the rep ranges, and load up from there. Be extremely conservative. Your first few weeks on this routine should be relatively easy. The slower you load, the longer you'll be able to load for.

Yes, you will plateau eventually. That is a given. It may be after 4 weeks, or it may be after 4 months+. As SOON as you plateau, you need to change things up. If something doesn't work from one session to the next, it will NOT suddenly start working in another week/month/year's time (with the exception of it just being a one-off bad workout). You can get past a plateau in many ways. Diet is the first thing that should be looked at (see below). Assuming this is good, a brief deload period, followed by a simple change to the program (such as changing the rep range and starting off light again before loading back up) is the next step. If this doesn't work, then an overhaul of the exercises is the next step. The main thing is: do NOT stick with something that isn't working today.

DIET

------

Quite simply, it's all about protein. To grow, you need protein, and lots of it. If you're not growing, assuming your training is effective (i.e. you're still gaining strength), then you're not eating enough protein. If you're 200lbs and want to get to 250lbs+, you need to eat like a 250lbs+ bodybuilder.

You get a lot of 160-180lbs fitness enthusiasts telling you that you don't need large amounts of protein to grow, but look at any seriously huge bodybuilder - the vast majority of them (if not all of them) are pounding down the protein.

Try it. Assuming you're around 200lbs and want to grow, shoot for 400g of protein a day and see what happens.

How do you eat that much protein? From as much whole food as possible, but let's face it, you're unlikely to be able to eat well over a kg of meat amongst other food without hitting the protein shakes. The main thing is to get the protein down you. If that means downing a protein shake with every meal to bump up your protein intake, then so be it.

What about fats and carbs? There are certain amounts of essential fats you need in your diet. These can be obtained from fish oils. As for essential carbs, there are none (arguably aside from post-workout.. see below). Eat carbs depending on your body type. A raging ectomorph will need more carbs than a carb-sensitive endomorph at the same protein level. Green veggies are useful for vitamins and minerals, but let's face it, when you're pounding down the protein, it can be hard to chow down on a ton of veggies too, so just hit a multi-vitamin if you prefer.

Water. Drink as much of it as you can. Keep a bottle of water with you whenever possible, and sip it all day long. Keeping hydrated at all times is vital.

Post-workout nutrition is imperative. You need protein and carbs as soon as possible after workout. The protein for muscle growth, and the carbs to replenish the glycogen depleted from your workout. An ideal ratio for a 200lbs bodybuilder is 60g of protein and 80g of fast-acting carbs (usually dextrose or maltodextrin). Adjust these quantities in the same ratios depending on your size.

SUPPLEMENTS

-----------------

Very few actually work and as a rule, if in doubt, save your money. With the absense of enough vitamins and minerals in your diet, a multi-vitamin tablet is useful. Creatine is also a useful supplement, particularly if there aren't enough red meats in your diet. Other than that, use whatever money you were about to spend on the latest "get big quick" supplement fad and buy a nice juicy steak instead.

GEAR

-------

Keep it simple. If it's your first cycle, just run a single compound, preferably test enanthate, along with a faster acting drug to kickstart the cycle and to bring you into PCT. Nolva should also be run in low-dose during cycle to help prevent gyno. An example first cycle may look something like this:

1-10 Test Enan 500mg EW

1-4 Dianabol 40mg ED

9-12 Dianabol 40mg ED

1-12 Nolva 10-20mg ED

PCT should be run in the following manner after your cycle:

1-2 Clomid 100mg ED

3-4 Clomid 50mg ED

1-3 Nolva 40mg ED

4 Nolva 20mg ED

It is imperative that your diet and training are spot-on for the best results from your cycle. If these are not good enough, you will just be wasting your money and time, and risking your body unnecessarily.

After this kind of simple first cycle, you will learn how your body responds to moderate dose test, how easy you recover, and how you're affected by sides. This will leave you in a better position to add extra substances in future cycles. A second cycle would typically be the same as above, but adding in a second compound - such as EQ, Deca or Tren. These work nicely with test.

Subsequent cycles could see you increasing doses further if necessary, or adding in more exotic drugs, such as GH. But at the end of the day, a HUGE amount of mass has been built with simple moderate dose test/tren cycles for a fraction of the price of these more exotic cycles. My opinion is to stick to the basic cheap mass building drugs until you exhaust all of your gains from them.

Time off between cycles is up to you. I would recommend a minimum of 4 weeks clean after PCT. The shorter your time off, the greater the muscle gains, as you'll be on cycle more often, but also the greater the risks. It depends whether you want to be big or safe. Bottom line: if you really want to be 100% safe, don't do steroids at all.

It is a sensible idea to get blood levels checked regularly, particularly if you run high dose cycles and/or have any medical conditions. Failing this, get your baseline test levels before you do your first cycle.

Follow these recommendations, and I am convinced that you will no longer be disappointed with your bodybuilding progress.


----------



## Harry1436114491

Great well thought out post mate.


----------



## crazycacti

'Perfect' - need i say anymore


----------



## Tuna_boi

Very nice indeed, quality post..


----------



## SD

Great Post Big,

Just about sums it all up, is it a sticky?? Woulda given rep points but I gotta spread em!!! ....and the rep points 

SD


----------



## McRoNiX

wicked man :lift:

nice one


----------



## Killerkeane

Nice post Big, well written


----------



## winger

Nice siggy


----------



## andyparry123

big said:


> HOW TO GROW
> 
> Most people are frustrated with their lack of progress in bodybuilding. Here's a brief outline of my options/recommendations for how best to succeed.
> 
> TRAINING
> 
> ------------
> 
> The best training method is dual-factor training. However, this is complicated, and in general for people with less than 2-3 years lifting experience who can't yet deadlift over twice their bodyweight, this is overkill. HUGE gains can be made on a simple single-factor low volume routine with progressive resistance for a long period of time for most people, without the need for dual-factor. Since the vast majority of people are in a chronically overtrained state, a brief deload period is required, followed by a two-day split intense training routine, such as this:
> 
> Mon
> 
> ----
> 
> Flat Bench Press 2 x 8
> 
> Parallel Barbell Rows 2 x 8
> 
> Weighted Chins 2 x 8
> 
> Standing Military Press 2 x 8
> 
> Thurs
> 
> ------
> 
> Back Squats ATF 2 x 8
> 
> Stiff-Legged Deadlifts 2 x 8
> 
> Calf raise 2 x 10
> 
> Weighted ab crunch (hold dumbell on your chest) 2 x 10
> 
> These don't include warm-ups, of which you should do a few progressive sets that don't tire you out, but instead warm you up and get your CNS stimulated. Remember to stretch also. The exercise order and reps can be tweaked of course, but do NOT add in a bunch of isolation exercises. Isolation work is great for a 250lbs+ bodybuilder looking to bring up a weak body part, but for the average circa 200lbs lifter who wants to get huge, you don't need to "tone" your biceps with endless curls. You need serious exercises that pack on serious mass... that is compound work like deads and squats - so do NOT swap out squats for leg press or similar. And do NOT add extra volume, or do any "burn-out" sets to feel a pump. Feeling like you've worked a muscle is a false sense of progress. ALL that matters is that you're keeping form strict with full ROM and are adding weight to the bar each week.
> 
> Which brings me to the key to the success of this routine - progressive resistance. That is, continually adding small amounts of weight each week. To get bigger, you need to get stronger. Adding small weights each week add up. Adding 1-2kg/week to your squat won't seem to make much difference on a week-to-week basis, but over the course of a year, that's an extra 50-100kg (along with the extra mass to match). That's immense.
> 
> Start off with weights that are easy to hit the rep ranges, and load up from there. Be extremely conservative. Your first few weeks on this routine should be relatively easy. The slower you load, the longer you'll be able to load for.
> 
> Yes, you will plateau eventually. That is a given. It may be after 4 weeks, or it may be after 4 months+. As SOON as you plateau, you need to change things up. If something doesn't work from one session to the next, it will NOT suddenly start working in another week/month/year's time (with the exception of it just being a one-off bad workout). You can get past a plateau in many ways. Diet is the first thing that should be looked at (see below). Assuming this is good, a brief deload period, followed by a simple change to the program (such as changing the rep range and starting off light again before loading back up) is the next step. If this doesn't work, then an overhaul of the exercises is the next step. The main thing is: do NOT stick with something that isn't working today.
> 
> DIET
> 
> ------
> 
> Quite simply, it's all about protein. To grow, you need protein, and lots of it. If you're not growing, assuming your training is effective (i.e. you're still gaining strength), then you're not eating enough protein. If you're 200lbs and want to get to 250lbs+, you need to eat like a 250lbs+ bodybuilder.
> 
> You get a lot of 160-180lbs fitness enthusiasts telling you that you don't need large amounts of protein to grow, but look at any seriously huge bodybuilder - the vast majority of them (if not all of them) are pounding down the protein.
> 
> Try it. Assuming you're around 200lbs and want to grow, shoot for 400g of protein a day and see what happens.
> 
> How do you eat that much protein? From as much whole food as possible, but let's face it, you're unlikely to be able to eat well over a kg of meat amongst other food without hitting the protein shakes. The main thing is to get the protein down you. If that means downing a protein shake with every meal to bump up your protein intake, then so be it.
> 
> What about fats and carbs? There are certain amounts of essential fats you need in your diet. These can be obtained from fish oils. As for essential carbs, there are none (arguably aside from post-workout.. see below). Eat carbs depending on your body type. A raging ectomorph will need more carbs than a carb-sensitive endomorph at the same protein level. Green veggies are useful for vitamins and minerals, but let's face it, when you're pounding down the protein, it can be hard to chow down on a ton of veggies too, so just hit a multi-vitamin if you prefer.
> 
> Water. Drink as much of it as you can. Keep a bottle of water with you whenever possible, and sip it all day long. Keeping hydrated at all times is vital.
> 
> Post-workout nutrition is imperative. You need protein and carbs as soon as possible after workout. The protein for muscle growth, and the carbs to replenish the glycogen depleted from your workout. An ideal ratio for a 200lbs bodybuilder is 60g of protein and 80g of fast-acting carbs (usually dextrose or maltodextrin). Adjust these quantities in the same ratios depending on your size.
> 
> SUPPLEMENTS
> 
> -----------------
> 
> Very few actually work and as a rule, if in doubt, save your money. With the absense of enough vitamins and minerals in your diet, a multi-vitamin tablet is useful. Creatine is also a useful supplement, particularly if there aren't enough red meats in your diet. Other than that, use whatever money you were about to spend on the latest "get big quick" supplement fad and buy a nice juicy steak instead.
> 
> GEAR
> 
> -------
> 
> Keep it simple. If it's your first cycle, just run a single compound, preferably test enanthate, along with a faster acting drug to kickstart the cycle and to bring you into PCT. Nolva should also be run in low-dose during cycle to help prevent gyno. An example first cycle may look something like this:
> 
> 1-10 Test Enan 500mg EW
> 
> 1-4 Dianabol 40mg ED
> 
> 9-12 Dianabol 40mg ED
> 
> 1-12 Nolva 10-20mg ED
> 
> PCT should be run in the following manner after your cycle:
> 
> 1-2 Clomid 100mg ED
> 
> 3-4 Clomid 50mg ED
> 
> 1-3 Nolva 40mg ED
> 
> 4 Nolva 20mg ED
> 
> It is imperative that your diet and training are spot-on for the best results from your cycle. If these are not good enough, you will just be wasting your money and time, and risking your body unnecessarily.
> 
> After this kind of simple first cycle, you will learn how your body responds to moderate dose test, how easy you recover, and how you're affected by sides. This will leave you in a better position to add extra substances in future cycles. A second cycle would typically be the same as above, but adding in a second compound - such as EQ, Deca or Tren. These work nicely with test.
> 
> Subsequent cycles could see you increasing doses further if necessary, or adding in more exotic drugs, such as GH. But at the end of the day, a HUGE amount of mass has been built with simple moderate dose test/tren cycles for a fraction of the price of these more exotic cycles. My opinion is to stick to the basic cheap mass building drugs until you exhaust all of your gains from them.
> 
> Time off between cycles is up to you. I would recommend a minimum of 4 weeks clean after PCT. The shorter your time off, the greater the muscle gains, as you'll be on cycle more often, but also the greater the risks. It depends whether you want to be big or safe. Bottom line: if you really want to be 100% safe, don't do steroids at all.
> 
> It is a sensible idea to get blood levels checked regularly, particularly if you run high dose cycles and/or have any medical conditions. Failing this, get your baseline test levels before you do your first cycle.
> 
> Follow these recommendations, and I am convinced that you will no longer be disappointed with your bodybuilding progress.


 cheers mate some good advice. any idea on anything you can use (gear in your post) that will go under the testing radar as i am tested in work


----------



## Jimmy1

what job you do?

its uncommon for aas testing

its usually only opiates and other recreational drugs


----------



## Jimmy1

goona stick this one for a while big


----------



## winger

Jimmy said:


> what job you do?
> 
> its uncommon for aas testing
> 
> its usually only opiates and other recreational drugs


Yea I am curious too. The 6 panel test is normally for Marijuana, Cocaine, Amphetamines, Methamphetamines, Opiates, & PCP.


----------



## Timmy Smooth

Just got round to reading this thread properly. Outstanding work, Big. This is exactly what newcomers are after when they arrive on forums such as this.


----------



## Damian81

very informative


----------



## John

that was an excellent read.


----------



## DB

yeah it is a very good post princess xxx


----------



## Bazzamax

Good post mate...I should print it off and give to the newbies at my gym.

keep up the good work..

Bazza.


----------



## holdmeback

great post if i was thinking of this as a first cycle could i replace the dbol with oral winny, as my friend got bad blote from dbol,cheers.


----------



## big

holdmeback said:


> great post if i was thinking of this as a first cycle could i replace the dbol with oral winny, as my friend got bad blote from dbol,cheers.


Yes, that would work fine too. In fact, I did just that a while back, with test enan and winny.

A lot of the bloat from dbol is caused by diet choices. As long as you keep your diet relatively clean, you might be okay. Everyone is different. You could always run dbol at the start and winny at the end.

But winny instead is fine.


----------



## Vince Hotwig

Great article big.

Not going to do anything fancy untill i get the big compounds under my belt.

Two question big, could i use this as a four day split? and if i shoot my protain in take from 200g aday to 400g would i get fat because I would love to be a 250pound bodybuilder but not a fat one

I started training at 69kgs now 77kgs. Would it be better to build my protain in take slowly?


----------



## big

Vince Hotwig said:


> Great article big.
> 
> Not going to do anything fancy untill i get the big compounds under my belt.
> 
> Two question big, could i use this as a four day split? and if i shoot my protain in take from 200g aday to 400g would i get fat because I would love to be a 250pound bodybuilder but not a fat one
> 
> I started training at 69kgs now 77kgs. Would it be better to build my protain in take slowly?


Most people overtrain on a 4 day split. SOME people get away with it, but most are better off on a 2 day or 3 day. Those who do get away with it tend to have to deload every 4 weeks, or even more frequently. How were you intending to split it exactly?

Yes, build up your protein slowly. If you start to notice yourself putting on fat, cut back your carbs and/or fats a little. You can adjust things as you go along.


----------



## Vince Hotwig

I want to do your program monday tuesday rest wednesday back on thursday friday rest weekend. I know it would maybe be better on the two day split but I get bored when I am not in the gym.

Would love to be a personal training than, i can b in there allday, sad?

beats servicing gas boiler allday lol


----------



## big

So you would rather be in the gym more often and get worse progress?

Why not do the 2 day or 3 day split, and then go to the gym for cardio on the other days?


----------



## Vince Hotwig

Hell no. 3 day split it is than mate cheers. Could do with taking my body fat down with some cardio good for the heart too.


----------



## Deano1

I have only now just read this !!!!! very very good Matt seriously **** hot juts printed it out loads of good stufff on there that I should never forget!


----------



## winger

Yea nice read indeed. This is just my opinion but I think two weeks after the last enenthate shot is to soon. My buddy is on hrt and he takes a shot every 3 weeks of tes enenthate 200 to be exact.  At day 21 he gets tested and he is still on the high side of average males. Most of us dont get blood tests. If you dont then chances are it is all guess work.


----------



## big

winger said:


> Yea nice read indeed. This is just my opinion but I think two weeks after the last enenthate shot is to soon. My buddy is on hrt and he takes a shot every 3 weeks of tes enenthate 200 to be exact.  At day 21 he gets tested and he is still on the high side of average males. Most of us dont get blood tests. If you dont then chances are it is all guess work.


Well, according to HRT doctors like Swale, and PCT experts like Jenetic, you should be starting PCT 5-10 days after your last enan shot. According to them (and I think they're right), your levels do NOT need to drop to normal in order to start recovery. Sure your body MAY not start endogenous test production until exogenous, but you can get LH recovery long before your levels drop, which is extremely beneficial for recovery.

But IMO, switching to fast esters near the end of a cycle is the safest bet.


----------



## winger

Well Swale is the man.


----------



## DB

:withstupi



winger said:


> Well Swale is the man.


:withstupi


----------



## winger

DB said:


> :withstupi :withstupi


Its Mr. Stupid.


----------



## m1ckey

Really informative and motivating post. thanks. been working out for a couple of years but recently fell ill (unrelated to training). during that period suffered from fevers, eating problems, and other painful symptoms. Finally got back to it a couple months ago, albeit two stone lighter (already a slim guy genetically 80kg 6ft.) Started gaining weight again, but hit the plateu! This is just what i needed. sometimes you just ned someone to put it in words! cheerz mate.


----------



## Stompy

Excellent post mate.


----------



## andyparry123

sorry lads just got round to reading your replies( i have a 6 month old), I work in the petro-chemical industry for a us of a company they test for everything!


----------



## Deano!

ive just read that and ive been planning on doing this dual factor training when i get back from my holiday now this is the second topic i have read about it on, but the other topic said something along the lines of after two weeks do two days of upper body and two of lower then progress until your doing 3 days of each after 8 weeks change your routine, i might be wrong on exact details but it was along those lines, your dual factor, i might have missed something but i was under the impression that you mean just do upper body one n lower body once a week, and also can you stick to this routine for a while? atm im changing my routine every 6-8 weeks

Example routine ;:

monday - upper body

tuesday - lower body

thursday - upper body

friday - lower body

im on the bike alot that will do for cardio  .... but you you say them four days and the other 3 of the week resting is still over training?


----------



## winger

If you feel fatigued or you are not getting stronger, then do less. Less sets or less intensity or more sleep. It is all personal. I know guys that do 20 plus sets per bp with no gear and look great and are strong as hell. I cant do that.


----------



## big

Deano! said:


> ive just read that and ive been planning on doing this dual factor training when i get back from my holiday now this is the second topic i have read about it on, but the other topic said something along the lines of after two weeks do two days of upper body and two of lower then progress until your doing 3 days of each after 8 weeks change your routine, i might be wrong on exact details but it was along those lines, your dual factor, i might have missed something but i was under the impression that you mean just do upper body one n lower body once a week, and also can you stick to this routine for a while? atm im changing my routine every 6-8 weeks
> 
> Example routine ;:
> 
> monday - upper body
> 
> tuesday - lower body
> 
> thursday - upper body
> 
> friday - lower body
> 
> im on the bike alot that will do for cardio  .... but you you say them four days and the other 3 of the week resting is still over training?


The idea of dual factor training is to load via volume, then deload, and then load by intensity. The rebound effect from the over-reaching of the volume combined with the strength/size gains you get from a low-volume intense phase work in synergy to give you even better results.

Dual factor training doesn't mandate upper/lower splits, nor does it prescribe any set/rep scheme. It is about the loading and deloading.

I will make a more complete post about this in the future, along with an example of an implementation of a dual factor program.


----------



## Deano!

thanks big


----------



## paul1974

Hello

I have now been training for near on a year.I reckon I fell into most of the pitfulls that newbies do,i e Doing loads of Isolation and very little compond exercises.I was going to the gym thinking the more I do the bigger I will get etc etc and just feeling knackered all the time and my limb's were always heavy and Cardio suffered cause I could'nt be bothered.

2 weeks ago I started the routine at the begining of this thread and I feel so much better for it.I am adding small weights on every time and all my lifts have gone up where they had plateaued before.

I used to wimp out of squats and do leg presses now I am sooo glad I do them as it really feels like the whole body gets a workout instead of just the legs.

I'm going to keep doing this for a few months and then cut all the fat off(approx 17% bf at the mo) as there are visible gains but it's hard to see em.

I am taking this quite seriously and am so trying to be alot happier with the way I look come next summer holidays

Thnaks Big

Paul


----------



## big

Well done dude, I'm glad it's working for you. Keep us informed of your progress.


----------



## crazycacti

It most def works - i spoke to big a few months ago and my weights went up very quickly after dropping the volume even more and i thought i was doing low volume at the time, if only i didn't get injured :gun:

managed to get to do some light BB inclines yesterday woooooo!!


----------



## winger

crazycacti said:


> i spoke to big a few months ago and my weights went up very quickly


So all I have to do is talk to big? Big you have a pm from me.........lol


----------



## crazycacti

aye, just speaking, didn't have to do anything


----------



## tahir

very good read big


----------



## big

Thanks guys


----------



## winger

big said:


> Thanks guys


No, thank-you!


----------



## Deano!

just re-read the whole topic, and im more awake i understand it alot more now been researching my diet more etc

Big - just training the monday and thursday will be enough? i know people say less is more to a certain extent, but this is only two days training seems like its nothing if you get me? i know you know alot more about this than me im not questioning you but i would have thought 4 days training, 3 minimum??? i want to start this next week so sorry for all the questions mate and at the moment my arms i am not too ompressed with the gains and you made a good routine for them in my topic, but should i just stick to this exact routine give or take reps etc ?????

thanks alot for any help mate


----------



## Killerkeane

Deano! said:


> just re-read the whole topic, and im more awake i understand it alot more now been researching my diet more etc
> 
> Big - just training the monday and thursday will be enough? i know people say less is more to a certain extent, but this is only two days training seems like its nothing if you get me? i know you know alot more about this than me im not questioning you but i would have thought 4 days training, 3 minimum??? i want to start this next week so sorry for all the questions mate and at the moment my arms i am not too ompressed with the gains and you made a good routine for them in my topic, but should i just stick to this exact routine give or take reps etc ?????
> 
> thanks alot for any help mate


Believe me.....it makes sense......and see for yourself how much you hurt between workouts! I have been doing very low volume......and my muscles are feeling completly fatigued as if i was doing 15 sets+ and making solid gains. I am training 2 days a week....training as hard as i can each and every workout and my weights are going through the roof.

Remember.....As long as the weights are going up each and every workout then you know you are making eyecatching progress. If the weights dont go up...first thing you do is eat more.

Stick to it and see Deano.


----------



## big

Deano! said:


> just re-read the whole topic, and im more awake i understand it alot more now been researching my diet more etc
> 
> Big - just training the monday and thursday will be enough? i know people say less is more to a certain extent, but this is only two days training seems like its nothing if you get me? i know you know alot more about this than me im not questioning you but i would have thought 4 days training, 3 minimum??? i want to start this next week so sorry for all the questions mate and at the moment my arms i am not too ompressed with the gains and you made a good routine for them in my topic, but should i just stick to this exact routine give or take reps etc ?????
> 
> thanks alot for any help mate


Give it a try and see dude. Start at a weight where you know you will comfortably get the reps in the first week, then add a small amount of weight each week, and make sure you're eating enough, especially protein. If you've not been impressed with the 3-4 day routine that you've been on, you've not got a lot to lose trying something different. Give it a fair try (i.e. don't start it in PCT, and make sure your diet and sleep is solid), and see how you get on over a couple of months on it. Worst case scenario, it doesn't work for you, and you try something different instead.

The vast majority of people are very overtrained, and therefore don't get the gains they hope for. This is why, without knowing anything about your recovery ability, I would recommend a 2 day routine. If you can get away with training 4 days a week and can recover successfully - go for it. But it does sound like you've come a bit stuck trying that method.

A 2 day weights routine doesn't mean you should have 5 days of sitting on the sofa though. At least 3 of those days without weights could be spent doing cardio and/or GPP/conditioning work.

At the end of the day, progressive overload is the key here. As long as the weights and/or reps are going up each week, it doesn't really matter whether you're doing a 1 day or a 7 day routine... you will gain.


----------



## winger

That gave me a chubby big. 

Change does a body good.


----------



## Deano!

thanks alot big and killerkeane, i will start this new routine next week will do a 4 days split and will keep you posted on my progress i will have to take pics and measure biceps etc properly wanna see how good this is ive only been training 6 months really and this is my first time properly changing the routine  thanks again guys


----------



## fits

big said:


> At the end of the day, progressive overload is the key here. As long as the weights and/or reps are going up each week, it doesn't really matter whether you're doing a 1 day or a 7 day routine... you will gain.


 i do 2 day split but do it say mon/tue then 2 days off then repeat, if i get a chance, i do this because some times i may not get to the gym for a week or longer due to my job, i do one warm up set then one work set aiming for a set nember of reps, say 9. the weight is going up gradually, (just started again after being back in uk for hol) but is this enough reps to grow? as long as weight is going up?


----------



## winger

Yes!


----------



## fits

winger said:


> Yes!


 COOOOOOOOOOOOOLLLLLLLLLL


----------



## big

For those of you who have followed the single factor low volume routine I listed in this thread, have milked all the gains from it that you can, and are ready for a change, I've written something up on dual factor training here:

http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/showthread.php?p=150486#post150486


----------



## winger

big said:


> For those of you who have followed the single factor low volume routine I listed in this thread, have milked all the gains from it that you can, and are ready for a change, I've written something up on dual factor training here:
> 
> http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/showthread.php?p=150486#post150486


What an awsome read again!


----------



## big

big said:


> For those of you who have followed the single factor low volume routine I listed in this thread, have milked all the gains from it that you can, and are ready for a change, I've written something up on dual factor training here:
> 
> http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/showthread.php?p=150486#post150486


I have decided to make a more detailed Dual Factor training post here:

http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/showthread.php?t=11964

This includes the example dual factor workout, and also explains the concepts of the program a bit more too.


----------



## mrmasive

Very interesting post!


----------



## hovis

do u know a good site that explains how to do the lifts in how to grow

:lift: :withstupi :lift: :withstupi :lift: :withstupi :lift: :withstupi


----------



## rob1436114510

whats the best muscle supplements to us to get mass..........:lift: :lift:


----------



## big

rob said:


> whats the best muscle supplements to us to get mass..........:lift: :lift:


Food


----------



## winger

big said:


> Food


Short and sweet! DB comes to mind but that is a whole different thread.............lol.


----------



## BIG-UNC

big said:


> HOW TO GROW
> 
> Most people are frustrated with their lack of progress in bodybuilding. Here's a brief outline of my options/recommendations for how best to succeed.
> 
> TRAINING
> 
> ------------
> 
> The best training method is dual-factor training. However, this is complicated, and in general for people with less than 2-3 years lifting experience who can't yet deadlift over twice their bodyweight, this is overkill. HUGE gains can be made on a simple single-factor low volume routine with progressive resistance for a long period of time for most people, without the need for dual-factor. Since the vast majority of people are in a chronically overtrained state, a brief deload period is required, followed by a two-day split intense training routine, such as this:
> 
> Mon
> 
> ----
> 
> Flat Bench Press 2 x 8
> 
> Parallel Barbell Rows 2 x 8
> 
> Weighted Chins 2 x 8
> 
> Standing Military Press 2 x 8
> 
> Thurs
> 
> ------
> 
> Back Squats ATF 2 x 8
> 
> Stiff-Legged Deadlifts 2 x 8
> 
> Calf raise 2 x 10
> 
> Weighted ab crunch (hold dumbell on your chest) 2 x 10
> 
> These don't include warm-ups, of which you should do a few progressive sets that don't tire you out, but instead warm you up and get your CNS stimulated. Remember to stretch also. The exercise order and reps can be tweaked of course, but do NOT add in a bunch of isolation exercises. Isolation work is great for a 250lbs+ bodybuilder looking to bring up a weak body part, but for the average circa 200lbs lifter who wants to get huge, you don't need to "tone" your biceps with endless curls. You need serious exercises that pack on serious mass... that is compound work like deads and squats - so do NOT swap out squats for leg press or similar. And do NOT add extra volume, or do any "burn-out" sets to feel a pump. Feeling like you've worked a muscle is a false sense of progress. ALL that matters is that you're keeping form strict with full ROM and are adding weight to the bar each week.
> 
> Which brings me to the key to the success of this routine - progressive resistance. That is, continually adding small amounts of weight each week. To get bigger, you need to get stronger. Adding small weights each week add up. Adding 1-2kg/week to your squat won't seem to make much difference on a week-to-week basis, but over the course of a year, that's an extra 50-100kg (along with the extra mass to match). That's immense.
> 
> Start off with weights that are easy to hit the rep ranges, and load up from there. Be extremely conservative. Your first few weeks on this routine should be relatively easy. The slower you load, the longer you'll be able to load for.
> 
> Yes, you will plateau eventually. That is a given. It may be after 4 weeks, or it may be after 4 months+. As SOON as you plateau, you need to change things up. If something doesn't work from one session to the next, it will NOT suddenly start working in another week/month/year's time (with the exception of it just being a one-off bad workout). You can get past a plateau in many ways. Diet is the first thing that should be looked at (see below). Assuming this is good, a brief deload period, followed by a simple change to the program (such as changing the rep range and starting off light again before loading back up) is the next step. If this doesn't work, then an overhaul of the exercises is the next step. The main thing is: do NOT stick with something that isn't working today.
> 
> DIET
> 
> ------
> 
> Quite simply, it's all about protein. To grow, you need protein, and lots of it. If you're not growing, assuming your training is effective (i.e. you're still gaining strength), then you're not eating enough protein. If you're 200lbs and want to get to 250lbs+, you need to eat like a 250lbs+ bodybuilder.
> 
> You get a lot of 160-180lbs fitness enthusiasts telling you that you don't need large amounts of protein to grow, but look at any seriously huge bodybuilder - the vast majority of them (if not all of them) are pounding down the protein.
> 
> Try it. Assuming you're around 200lbs and want to grow, shoot for 400g of protein a day and see what happens.
> 
> How do you eat that much protein? From as much whole food as possible, but let's face it, you're unlikely to be able to eat well over a kg of meat amongst other food without hitting the protein shakes. The main thing is to get the protein down you. If that means downing a protein shake with every meal to bump up your protein intake, then so be it.
> 
> What about fats and carbs? There are certain amounts of essential fats you need in your diet. These can be obtained from fish oils. As for essential carbs, there are none (arguably aside from post-workout.. see below). Eat carbs depending on your body type. A raging ectomorph will need more carbs than a carb-sensitive endomorph at the same protein level. Green veggies are useful for vitamins and minerals, but let's face it, when you're pounding down the protein, it can be hard to chow down on a ton of veggies too, so just hit a multi-vitamin if you prefer.
> 
> Water. Drink as much of it as you can. Keep a bottle of water with you whenever possible, and sip it all day long. Keeping hydrated at all times is vital.
> 
> Post-workout nutrition is imperative. You need protein and carbs as soon as possible after workout. The protein for muscle growth, and the carbs to replenish the glycogen depleted from your workout. An ideal ratio for a 200lbs bodybuilder is 60g of protein and 80g of fast-acting carbs (usually dextrose or maltodextrin). Adjust these quantities in the same ratios depending on your size.
> 
> SUPPLEMENTS
> 
> -----------------
> 
> Very few actually work and as a rule, if in doubt, save your money. With the absense of enough vitamins and minerals in your diet, a multi-vitamin tablet is useful. Creatine is also a useful supplement, particularly if there aren't enough red meats in your diet. Other than that, use whatever money you were about to spend on the latest "get big quick" supplement fad and buy a nice juicy steak instead.
> 
> GEAR
> 
> -------
> 
> Keep it simple. If it's your first cycle, just run a single compound, preferably test enanthate, along with a faster acting drug to kickstart the cycle and to bring you into PCT. Nolva should also be run in low-dose during cycle to help prevent gyno. An example first cycle may look something like this:
> 
> 1-10 Test Enan 500mg EW
> 
> 1-4 Dianabol 40mg ED
> 
> 9-12 Dianabol 40mg ED
> 
> 1-12 Nolva 10-20mg ED
> 
> PCT should be run in the following manner after your cycle:
> 
> 1-2 Clomid 100mg ED
> 
> 3-4 Clomid 50mg ED
> 
> 1-3 Nolva 40mg ED
> 
> 4 Nolva 20mg ED
> 
> It is imperative that your diet and training are spot-on for the best results from your cycle. If these are not good enough, you will just be wasting your money and time, and risking your body unnecessarily.
> 
> After this kind of simple first cycle, you will learn how your body responds to moderate dose test, how easy you recover, and how you're affected by sides. This will leave you in a better position to add extra substances in future cycles. A second cycle would typically be the same as above, but adding in a second compound - such as EQ, Deca or Tren. These work nicely with test.
> 
> Subsequent cycles could see you increasing doses further if necessary, or adding in more exotic drugs, such as GH. But at the end of the day, a HUGE amount of mass has been built with simple moderate dose test/tren cycles for a fraction of the price of these more exotic cycles. My opinion is to stick to the basic cheap mass building drugs until you exhaust all of your gains from them.
> 
> Time off between cycles is up to you. I would recommend a minimum of 4 weeks clean after PCT. The shorter your time off, the greater the muscle gains, as you'll be on cycle more often, but also the greater the risks. It depends whether you want to be big or safe. Bottom line: if you really want to be 100% safe, don't do steroids at all.
> 
> It is a sensible idea to get blood levels checked regularly, particularly if you run high dose cycles and/or have any medical conditions. Failing this, get your baseline test levels before you do your first cycle.
> 
> Follow these recommendations, and I am convinced that you will no longer be disappointed with your bodybuilding progress.this not my thread so ive obviously pressed the wrong key somewhere and i would like to appolise to who ever posted it thsnks unckel


----------



## Toregar

Heya Big, I'm new to this particular bodybuilding forum. I'm a member of several others, but came across thread, and found it quite interesting. I have always used 2 on, 1 off, 2 on, 2 off training split. I've made fairly decent gains while utilizing it. Not sure if you still keep up on this thread or not, but figured I'd give it a shot.

My question is, have I fallen into that more is better ideal ? I've always, always been afraid of not doing enough in the gym. The volume in this proposed workout is extremely low, in reference to what I've been used to in the past.

I've always focused on the compound lifts, I've done a lot of 5 X 5 compounds, followed by 2 X 8-10 of more of an iso to pump the blood in there.

If I were to try this out, how would I do the sets ? Would I take the last set of each exercise to complete and total failure ? Achieving such failure by utilizing forced reps/negative/partials/X reps/Drop sets etc. Since the volume is indeed that low, I would think you would want to completely obliterate your body in these training sessions.

Like you said it can't hurt to try, I've never used a low volume workout in all my years of bodybuilding, perhaps that is what is keeping me from realizing my true potential ...

Thanks Big


----------



## big

Toregar said:


> Heya Big, I'm new to this particular bodybuilding forum. I'm a member of several others, but came across thread, and found it quite interesting. I have always used 2 on, 1 off, 2 on, 2 off training split. I've made fairly decent gains while utilizing it. Not sure if you still keep up on this thread or not, but figured I'd give it a shot.
> 
> My question is, have I fallen into that more is better ideal ? I've always, always been afraid of not doing enough in the gym. The volume in this proposed workout is extremely low, in reference to what I've been used to in the past.
> 
> I've always focused on the compound lifts, I've done a lot of 5 X 5 compounds, followed by 2 X 8-10 of more of an iso to pump the blood in there.
> 
> If I were to try this out, how would I do the sets ? Would I take the last set of each exercise to complete and total failure ? Achieving such failure by utilizing forced reps/negative/partials/X reps/Drop sets etc. Since the volume is indeed that low, I would think you would want to completely obliterate your body in these training sessions.
> 
> Like you said it can't hurt to try, I've never used a low volume workout in all my years of bodybuilding, perhaps that is what is keeping me from realizing my true potential ...
> 
> Thanks Big


Hey dude, welcome to the board 

At the end of the day, you should do what works for you. If your 5x5 followed by 2x8-10 on a 4-day split is working well for you, and you're gaining strength and size, keep doing it. Don't try to fix what isn't broken  It sounds like you're following Needsize's routine, which is effective for many people, especially if you follow a sensible pattern on loading (for example, add weight each week, and drop back to 3x3 when you miss the 5x5).

If however you aren't happy with progress on that much volume, it is worth cutting right back and using a 2x/week or 3x/week low volume routine similar to the one listed in the first post of this thread.

The idea of this routine (and IMO pretty much any routine that actually works) is that you start off quite comfortably and add weight each week. There is no need to obliterate your body, or come out of the gym feeling like you've killed yourself EVERY session. Sure, on low volume, you need to get pretty damn intense as you start to push up to and past your record weights, and you'd better be getting to failure now and again, but you still need a good periodisation pattern to succeed. IMO there is no need to (regularly) do forced reps or any kind of higher intensity techniques as for most people, this is a recipe for overtraining.


----------



## Toregar

> Hey dude, welcome to the board
> 
> At the end of the day, you should do what works for you. If your 5x5 followed by 2x8-10 on a 4-day split is working well for you, and you're gaining strength and size, keep doing it. Don't try to fix what isn't broken  It sounds like you're following Needsize's routine, which is effective for many people, especially if you follow a sensible pattern on loading (for example, add weight each week, and drop back to 3x3 when you miss the 5x5).
> 
> If however you aren't happy with progress on that much volume, it is worth cutting right back and using a 2x/week or 3x/week low volume routine similar to the one listed in the first post of this thread.
> 
> The idea of this routine (and IMO pretty much any routine that actually works) is that you start off quite comfortably and add weight each week. There is no need to obliterate your body, or come out of the gym feeling like you've killed yourself EVERY session. Sure, on low volume, you need to get pretty damn intense as you start to push up to and past your record weights, and you'd better be getting to failure now and again, but you still need a good periodisation pattern to succeed. IMO there is no need to (regularly) do forced reps or any kind of higher intensity techniques as for most people, this is a recipe for overtraining.


Thanks for the welcome mate  , and thanks a ton for the quick reply :thumb:

I'm gonna go ahead and give the lower volume one a shot, I've never tried a routine like it before, but it is always exciting getting on a new routine :nod:

On a side note, this board has far surpassed the other ones I frequent, seems like a great bunch of people. Glad to be aboard !


----------



## big

Toregar said:


> Thanks for the welcome mate  , and thanks a ton for the quick reply :thumb:
> 
> I'm gonna go ahead and give the lower volume one a shot, I've never tried a routine like it before, but it is always exciting getting on a new routine :nod:
> 
> On a side note, this board has far surpassed the other ones I frequent, seems like a great bunch of people. Glad to be aboard !


Ok dude, make sure you get your diet sorted and eat PLENTY of protein and I'm sure you'll be happy with the results 

Let us know how you get on.

It's good to have you aboard... post often and enjoy the board


----------



## winger

Toregar said:


> Thanks for the welcome mate  , and thanks a ton for the quick reply :thumb:
> 
> I'm gonna go ahead and give the lower volume one a shot, I've never tried a routine like it before, but it is always exciting getting on a new routine :nod:
> 
> On a side note, this board has far surpassed the other ones I frequent, seems like a great bunch of people. Glad to be aboard !


Welcome to the board Toregar. It is very friendly as you might have noticed!

Best gauge for moving in the right direction is strength gains in my opinion.


----------



## big

winger said:


> Welcome to the board Toregar. It is very friendly as you might have noticed!
> 
> Best gauge for moving in the right direction is strength gains in my opinion.


I like your style


----------



## winger

Well what other gauge is their!


----------



## big

winger said:


> Well what other gauge is their!


How frequently you get hit on


----------



## winger

big said:


> How frequently you get hit on


The chicks dont hit on me, so I have to use H.I.I.T. training.


----------



## big

winger said:


> The chicks dont hit on me, so I have to use H.I.I.T. training.


They are just intimidated by your beauty, princess


----------



## winger

big said:


> They are just intimidated by your beauty, princess


Oh thank-you. You really know how smooze the guys! I am blushing now.:hug:


----------



## mrmasive

big said:


> HOW TO GROW
> 
> Mon
> 
> ----
> 
> Flat Bench Press 2 x 8
> 
> Parallel Barbell Rows 2 x 8
> 
> Weighted Chins 2 x 8
> 
> Standing Military Press 2 x 8
> 
> Thurs
> 
> ------
> 
> *Back Squats ATF 2 x 8*
> 
> Stiff-Legged Deadlifts 2 x 8
> 
> Calf raise 2 x 10
> 
> Weighted ab crunch (hold dumbell on your chest) 2 x 10


What are Back Squats ATF??? :crazy: :rage:


----------



## big

mrmasive said:


> What are Back Squats ATF??? :crazy: :rage:


Regular squats - squats with the bar on your back (well, traps/shoulders). As opposed to front squats - where you rest the bar in front of you - either on your front delts or held olympic style with your hands in front of you).

And "ATF" means ass to the floor. i.e. you go as deep as you can - preferably until your hamstrings touch your calves. You may need to work up to this flexibility and/or use very light weights, but you'll build up fast.


----------



## mrmasive

lol Cheers bud, I will have to take the ATF method slowly as I injured my knee and I know this aggravates it as that is how I always used to squat, I normally go down untill quads are just below parallel nowdays  ......


----------



## winger

mrmasive said:


> lol Cheers bud, I will have to take the ATF method slowly as I injured my knee and I know this aggravates it as that is how I always used to squat, I normally go down untill quads are just below parallel nowdays  ......


Most of us cant do this because our egos get in the way.


----------



## jonboy0312

great read big,im just starting out, experience and knowledge like this can only be a great help. cheers


----------



## keller

What would be a suitable replacement for weighted chins? I work out at home and im pretty sure my walls would collapse if i tried putting a bar up! lol


----------



## winger

Chin up bar that goes in your door.


----------



## SDR

big said:


> HOW TO GROW
> 
> Most people are frustrated with their lack of progress in bodybuilding. Here's a brief outline of my options/recommendations for how best to succeed.
> 
> TRAINING
> 
> ------------
> 
> The best training method is dual-factor training. However, this is complicated, and in general for people with less than 2-3 years lifting experience who can't yet deadlift over twice their bodyweight, this is overkill. HUGE gains can be made on a simple single-factor low volume routine with progressive resistance for a long period of time for most people, without the need for dual-factor. Since the vast majority of people are in a chronically overtrained state, a brief deload period is required, followed by a two-day split intense training routine, such as this:
> 
> Mon
> 
> ----
> 
> Flat Bench Press 2 x 8
> 
> Parallel Barbell Rows 2 x 8
> 
> Weighted Chins 2 x 8
> 
> Standing Military Press 2 x 8
> 
> Thurs
> 
> ------
> 
> Back Squats ATF 2 x 8
> 
> Stiff-Legged Deadlifts 2 x 8
> 
> Calf raise 2 x 10
> 
> Weighted ab crunch (hold dumbell on your chest) 2 x 10
> 
> These don't include warm-ups, of which you should do a few progressive sets that don't tire you out, but instead warm you up and get your CNS stimulated. Remember to stretch also. The exercise order and reps can be tweaked of course, but do NOT add in a bunch of isolation exercises. Isolation work is great for a 250lbs+ bodybuilder looking to bring up a weak body part, but for the average circa 200lbs lifter who wants to get huge, you don't need to "tone" your biceps with endless curls. You need serious exercises that pack on serious mass... that is compound work like deads and squats - so do NOT swap out squats for leg press or similar. And do NOT add extra volume, or do any "burn-out" sets to feel a pump. Feeling like you've worked a muscle is a false sense of progress. ALL that matters is that you're keeping form strict with full ROM and are adding weight to the bar each week.
> 
> Which brings me to the key to the success of this routine - progressive resistance. That is, continually adding small amounts of weight each week. To get bigger, you need to get stronger. Adding small weights each week add up. Adding 1-2kg/week to your squat won't seem to make much difference on a week-to-week basis, but over the course of a year, that's an extra 50-100kg (along with the extra mass to match). That's immense.
> 
> Start off with weights that are easy to hit the rep ranges, and load up from there. Be extremely conservative. Your first few weeks on this routine should be relatively easy. The slower you load, the longer you'll be able to load for.
> 
> Yes, you will plateau eventually. That is a given. It may be after 4 weeks, or it may be after 4 months+. As SOON as you plateau, you need to change things up. If something doesn't work from one session to the next, it will NOT suddenly start working in another week/month/year's time (with the exception of it just being a one-off bad workout). You can get past a plateau in many ways. Diet is the first thing that should be looked at (see below). Assuming this is good, a brief deload period, followed by a simple change to the program (such as changing the rep range and starting off light again before loading back up) is the next step. If this doesn't work, then an overhaul of the exercises is the next step. The main thing is: do NOT stick with something that isn't working today.
> 
> DIET
> 
> ------
> 
> Quite simply, it's all about protein. To grow, you need protein, and lots of it. If you're not growing, assuming your training is effective (i.e. you're still gaining strength), then you're not eating enough protein. If you're 200lbs and want to get to 250lbs+, you need to eat like a 250lbs+ bodybuilder.
> 
> You get a lot of 160-180lbs fitness enthusiasts telling you that you don't need large amounts of protein to grow, but look at any seriously huge bodybuilder - the vast majority of them (if not all of them) are pounding down the protein.
> 
> Try it. Assuming you're around 200lbs and want to grow, shoot for 400g of protein a day and see what happens.
> 
> How do you eat that much protein? From as much whole food as possible, but let's face it, you're unlikely to be able to eat well over a kg of meat amongst other food without hitting the protein shakes. The main thing is to get the protein down you. If that means downing a protein shake with every meal to bump up your protein intake, then so be it.
> 
> What about fats and carbs? There are certain amounts of essential fats you need in your diet. These can be obtained from fish oils. As for essential carbs, there are none (arguably aside from post-workout.. see below). Eat carbs depending on your body type. A raging ectomorph will need more carbs than a carb-sensitive endomorph at the same protein level. Green veggies are useful for vitamins and minerals, but let's face it, when you're pounding down the protein, it can be hard to chow down on a ton of veggies too, so just hit a multi-vitamin if you prefer.
> 
> Water. Drink as much of it as you can. Keep a bottle of water with you whenever possible, and sip it all day long. Keeping hydrated at all times is vital.
> 
> Post-workout nutrition is imperative. You need protein and carbs as soon as possible after workout. The protein for muscle growth, and the carbs to replenish the glycogen depleted from your workout. An ideal ratio for a 200lbs bodybuilder is 60g of protein and 80g of fast-acting carbs (usually dextrose or maltodextrin). Adjust these quantities in the same ratios depending on your size.
> 
> SUPPLEMENTS
> 
> -----------------
> 
> Very few actually work and as a rule, if in doubt, save your money. With the absense of enough vitamins and minerals in your diet, a multi-vitamin tablet is useful. Creatine is also a useful supplement, particularly if there aren't enough red meats in your diet. Other than that, use whatever money you were about to spend on the latest "get big quick" supplement fad and buy a nice juicy steak instead.
> 
> GEAR
> 
> -------
> 
> Keep it simple. If it's your first cycle, just run a single compound, preferably test enanthate, along with a faster acting drug to kickstart the cycle and to bring you into PCT. Nolva should also be run in low-dose during cycle to help prevent gyno. An example first cycle may look something like this:
> 
> 1-10 Test Enan 500mg EW
> 
> 1-4 Dianabol 40mg ED
> 
> 9-12 Dianabol 40mg ED
> 
> 1-12 Nolva 10-20mg ED
> 
> PCT should be run in the following manner after your cycle:
> 
> 1-2 Clomid 100mg ED
> 
> 3-4 Clomid 50mg ED
> 
> 1-3 Nolva 40mg ED
> 
> 4 Nolva 20mg ED
> 
> It is imperative that your diet and training are spot-on for the best results from your cycle. If these are not good enough, you will just be wasting your money and time, and risking your body unnecessarily.
> 
> After this kind of simple first cycle, you will learn how your body responds to moderate dose test, how easy you recover, and how you're affected by sides. This will leave you in a better position to add extra substances in future cycles. A second cycle would typically be the same as above, but adding in a second compound - such as EQ, Deca or Tren. These work nicely with test.
> 
> Subsequent cycles could see you increasing doses further if necessary, or adding in more exotic drugs, such as GH. But at the end of the day, a HUGE amount of mass has been built with simple moderate dose test/tren cycles for a fraction of the price of these more exotic cycles. My opinion is to stick to the basic cheap mass building drugs until you exhaust all of your gains from them.
> 
> Time off between cycles is up to you. I would recommend a minimum of 4 weeks clean after PCT. The shorter your time off, the greater the muscle gains, as you'll be on cycle more often, but also the greater the risks. It depends whether you want to be big or safe. Bottom line: if you really want to be 100% safe, don't do steroids at all.
> 
> It is a sensible idea to get blood levels checked regularly, particularly if you run high dose cycles and/or have any medical conditions. Failing this, get your baseline test levels before you do your first cycle.
> 
> Follow these recommendations, and I am convinced that you will no longer be disappointed with your bodybuilding progress.


Great read, I might look into changing to this only have 3 months lifting experience and being just over 12 stone.

Question:

Is it possible to factor in 2 extra days? I know it sounds odd, but I really like getting into the gym every night after work, I'm doing a 4 day split at the moment and generally feel the need to be in there atleast 4 days. So is there anyway you could do this? I'd assume you could dedicate one day to cardio?

Thanks for any help offered.:smoke:


----------



## big

SDR said:


> Great read, I might look into changing to this only have 3 months lifting experience and being just over 12 stone.
> 
> Question:
> 
> Is it possible to factor in 2 extra days? I know it sounds odd, but I really like getting into the gym every night after work, I'm doing a 4 day split at the moment and generally feel the need to be in there atleast 4 days. So is there anyway you could do this? I'd assume you could dedicate one day to cardio?
> 
> Thanks for any help offered.:smoke:


2-3 lifting sessions and 2-3 cardio sessions IMO

If you can recover from 4 lifting sessions a week and can gain each session, by all means keep doing it. But if like most people, 4 days gets you nowhere fast, you will need more recovery time and should drop to 2-3 lifting sessions a week until you get a proper gauge of your recovery ability.


----------



## SDR

big said:


> 2-3 lifting sessions and 2-3 cardio sessions IMO
> 
> If you can recover from 4 lifting sessions a week and can gain each session, by all means keep doing it. But if like most people, 4 days gets you nowhere fast, you will need more recovery time and should drop to 2-3 lifting sessions a week until you get a proper gauge of your recovery ability.


So do you think it would be feesable to do the original workout you posted with 2 days dedicated solely to cardio?

Thanks for the help by the way, it's quality you give up so much free time to help new people


----------



## big

SDR said:


> So do you think it would be feesable to do the original workout you posted with 2 days dedicated solely to cardio?


Yes I do... but give it a try and see


----------



## SDR

I'm about to start this tonight, some quests to avoid looking like a dick (quite self concious as my Gym is full of serious lifters)

1. Can I do Military Press and Parallel Rows with the Smaller, Pre-Weighted Bars?

2. Is there anything I could do instead of Chins? I struggle with Chins on the assisted machine at 15kg... so doing it with no help at all I'm gunna look soft 

Thanks!


----------



## big

SDR said:


> I'm about to start this tonight, some quests to avoid looking like a dick (quite self concious as my Gym is full of serious lifters)
> 
> 1. Can I do Military Press and Parallel Rows with the Smaller, Pre-Weighted Bars?
> 
> 2. Is there anything I could do instead of Chins? I struggle with Chins on the assisted machine at 15kg... so doing it with no help at all I'm gunna look soft
> 
> Thanks!


1. Yes you can. However, an olympic bar is superior for two reasons. Firstly you can increment the weight smaller (you can add 2x1.25kg plates to an oly bar, whereas pre-weighted bars tend to go up in 5kg intervals). Secondly, the oly bar is usually thicker. It's always a good idea to train with a thick bar for your grip.

2. You could do lat pulldowns instead, but chins (even assisted chins or negatives) are a superior exercise.

Don't worry about how you look to others while lifting dude.


----------



## SDR

Didn't get chance to go the Gym tonight due to having a Car Accident (nothing too serious to stop me training, but serious enough to warrant compensation claims  ) so I decided to put my time to good use and start reading Beyond Brawn, a member here sent me it. It's funny reading through the first 100 pages and seeing how much of the advice is channeled into this routine you've laid out. I don't mean to say, "you've copied it" I mean that to say, I can tell this is going to be a winner and not something I'll be changin soon


----------



## winger

Well I hope you are ok mate!

Beyond Brawn in a nut shell. 5 excercises all basic compound movements and no arm work. Love that! 

Bench, military, squats, deadlifts, pullups. All lift measured by weight progression. Pretty simple actually.


----------



## big

There are a few books I highly recommend. Beyond Brawn is definitely one of them.


----------



## SDR

I finally got around to putting this into practise this week. I thought it might be an idea to see what I could manage at maximum, then work out (with this forums help  ) the best way to drop down and load up.

Here's what I managed this week:

*
Sat*

*
----*

*
Flat Bench Press 2 x 8 = Maxed at 2x20kg Plates*

*
Parallel Barbell Rows 2 x 8 = Maxed at 2x12.5kg Plates*

*
Weighted Chins 2 x 8 = Maxed at Unweighted (****e at chins)*

*
Standing Military Press 2 x 8 = Maxed at 2x15kg Plates*

*
*

*
Tues*

*
------*

*
Back Squats ATF 2 x 8 = Maxed at 2x20kg Plates*

*
Stiff-Legged Deadlifts 2 x 8 = Maxed at 2x17.5kg Plates*

*
Calf raise 2 x 10 = Used Machine at 57.5kg, felt like I could do more*

*
Weighted ab crunch (hold dumbell on your chest) 2 x 10 = Did this with a 5kg plate*

Any comments or suggestions guys? I've never properly done leg workouts before, I just got back from doing it today and it's probably the most intense workout I've done. Managed to squat with nothing under my heels either, which I was quite proud of lol. Going to do a cardio workout on Thursday now also. Diets getting better, also taking CEE Creatine Capsules pre and post workout.


----------



## winger

Nice job SDR!


----------



## BOK

Top post,

I've seen mention of blood tests through out UK-M, which one's would you recommend?

Bok


----------



## bkotey

Thank-you. I am someone who has dabbled for bout 9 years on-off. always stopping/starting and frustrating myself with complex varied routines that have bored hurt and/or overtrained me. this makes more sense than the mass of shat ive been led to believe. Im gonna run wit this and post the pics n progress. cheers

:beer1:


----------



## SCJP

Big & Co.,

Why don't you stick this 'article' somewhere more obvious, such as a sticky in the 'Getting Started' forum?

Umpteen newbies have posted on this site lately asking questions that are answered in this thread, however they seem incapable of finding it (not that they're necessarily looking).


----------



## SDR

Just an update on how I'm doing:

I detected a little "sarcasm" in Big telling me I could do Cardio workouts... now I know why. After doing legs/back last week on Tuesday I spent a good deal of the rest of the week paralyzed  Calves and Hamstrings were stiffer than they've ever been! Not capable of walking down stairs, never mind cardio workouts!

So I got back in on Saturday and went at it again. I talked through the routine with one of the guys in there and he suggested that aswell as the progressive resistance, to try altering the exercises marginally. So he suggested inclined bench press, Lat pull downs with a wide Grip and also with a close Grip.

I benched on the incline 40kg, so he suggested to me that my flat bench might be a little heavier because the incline is harder.

I missed out the lat pull downs and stuck with the chins.

Parrallel rows at 20kg.

Military Press at 10kg - I find this the exercise I struggle with the most. When going behind my neck I find it easier, when I come to the front I find I cheat and "swing" my back into the rep if that makes sense?

I'm wearing a belt on everything but chins, I assume this is ok?

Any thoughts?


----------



## winger

SDR said:
 

> I'm wearing a belt on everything but chins, I assume this is ok?
> 
> Any thoughts?


This is just me but I dont use a belt, wraps or straps.


----------



## SDR

winger said:


> This is just me but I dont use a belt, wraps or straps.


I have a pretty weak lower back, I've had problems with it for most of my life.


----------



## winger

SDR said:


> I have a pretty weak lower back, I've had problems with it for most of my life.


I think the belt is more for the stomach.


----------



## big

SDR said:


> Military Press at 10kg - I find this the exercise I struggle with the most. When going behind my neck I find it easier, when I come to the front I find I cheat and "swing" my back into the rep if that makes sense?
> 
> I'm wearing a belt on everything but chins, I assume this is ok?
> 
> Any thoughts?


I prefer to military press to the front, as pressing behind the neck often causes problems, particularly to the rotator cuff.

Wearing a belt is fine for your heavier sets (after all, you only have one core - not worth risking it if particularly if you're going heavy and close to failure on exercises), but try to do your warm-ups without it.

Remember to eat plenty of support your workouts


----------



## chrisj22

big said:


> I prefer to military press to the front, as pressing behind the neck often causes problems, particularly to the rotator cuff.


Amen to that.


----------



## SDR

big said:


> I prefer to military press to the front, as pressing behind the neck often causes problems, particularly to the rotator cuff.
> 
> Wearing a belt is fine for your heavier sets (after all, you only have one core - not worth risking it if particularly if you're going heavy and close to failure on exercises), but try to do your warm-ups without it.
> 
> Remember to eat plenty of support your workouts


I'm finding the dieting part hardest really. Just trying to get the protein into my meals is difficult. So I'm just pounding down the whey shakes  Squats tonight... I'll be back on here when I can walk


----------



## SDR

So whats the reply to the token know all I met in the Gym with the:

"2 work outs a week isnt enough to grow at your size"


----------



## pecdecmike

Big..... excellent, simple and seemingly effective post... makes sense... will give it a try:lift:


----------



## momagic

Thanks, this was a good read!


----------



## steve.t

fantastic read, big. wish i had found it weeks ago!!!


----------



## Stanco

Hey Big, i think your post was brilliant. As being one of those "160-180 pound fitness enthusiasts" who don't believe in consuming a large amount of protein, im gonna bite the farkin bullet and down 200+ g's a day.

Hey, just look at my pic in the members section, i need muscle!


----------



## TCB

Hello,

First post on this forum, though I have been lurking for some time.

It's been about fifteen years since I last lifted any weights, I must have been about 25/26. I think I lasted about six months, and after not making any real noticeable gains I gave up.

I am pretty sure I know why, wrong exercises, over trained, crap nutrition and not enough rest, looking back (and knowing what I know now, from reading on this forum) i don't know how I didn't lose wait never mind gain a bit.

Anyway I think I will give "Bigs" routine a try and see how I get on,

Cheers,

TCB.


----------



## TCB

Any idea how many warm-up sets should be done and at whaa weight, i.e.

2 x 10 at 50% max weight for exercise?

cheers,

TCB.


----------



## winger

TCB=Taken Care of Business.

I don't think any set amount of weight, just as long as you are warm for your work sets. I progressively warm up. My first set is almost the bar.


----------



## big

TCB said:


> Any idea how many warm-up sets should be done and at whaa weight, i.e.
> 
> 2 x 10 at 50% max weight for exercise?
> 
> cheers,
> 
> TCB.


Like Mr. Winger said, do it progressively.

You should be warming up - not tiring yourself out. The amount of warm-up sets you do depends on the weight you're lifting. A 300kg squatter will need a whole load more warm-ups than a 50kg squatter for example.

If you're about to lift 100kg for 2x8, I would recommend something like this:

Bar x lots

50kg x 8

70kg x 5

90kg x 3

100kg x 8 x 2 sets

Everyone warms up slightly differently, so experiment and find what's best for you; but the above is a pretty good starting point.


----------



## TCB

winger said:


> TCB=Taken Care of Business.
> 
> I don't think any set amount of weight, just as long as you are warm for your work sets. I progressively warm up. My first set is almost the bar.


Cheers winger.


----------



## TCB

big said:


> Like Mr. Winger said, do it progressively.
> 
> You should be warming up - not tiring yourself out. The amount of warm-up sets you do depends on the weight you're lifting. A 300kg squatter will need a whole load more warm-ups than a 50kg squatter for example.
> 
> If you're about to lift 100kg for 2x8, I would recommend something like this:
> 
> Bar x lots
> 
> 50kg x 8
> 
> 70kg x 5
> 
> 90kg x 3
> 
> 100kg x 8 x 2 sets
> 
> Everyone warms up slightly differently, so experiment and find what's best for you; but the above is a pretty good starting point.


Cheers big, much appreciated.


----------



## thestudbeast

but let's face it, when you're pounding down the protein, it can be hard to chow down on a ton of veggies too, so just hit a multi-vitamin if you prefer.

can I put this quote in my sig?


----------



## winger

I think whole foods are much better than pills. What about the fiber?

I have yet to see what man can make, that God hasn't already perfected.


----------



## Bulldozer

Yep agree with winger.

No supplements are needed to grow, none at all !!

They are just conveniant, but IMO not better than whole food.

If you look at the real big boys diets they dont seem to use whey etc as a rule, they just eat 300 chickens, 2 cows and 400 eggs a day


----------



## winger

Bulldozer said:


> Yep agree with winger.
> 
> No supplements are needed to grow, none at all !!
> 
> They are just conveniant, but IMO not better than whole food.
> 
> If you look at the real big boys diets they dont seem to use whey etc as a rule, they just eat 300 chickens, 2 cows and 400 eggs a day


LOL.


----------



## big

Yep - I am with you Winger. Whole foods rule. My point (as Bulldozer re-iterated), its bloody hard to eat a big bowl of filling veggies when you've just eaten a small farmyard of food 

Sometimes its easier to take the vitamins rather than attempting to cram down a bucket of green beans. And sometimes its easier to drink a whey shake than have a 5th chicken that day if that's what you need to grow. Sure, if you can do the food, do the food 

thestudbeast - by all means use whatever quotes you like.


----------



## winger

I still think if your body is used to pounding down large amounts of protein, then your body will need large amounts of protein just to maintain.


----------



## big

Well that's sort of the nature of the beast.

To get big, MOST people (genetic freaks aside) need considerable quantities of protein. Protein is what's used for muscle building after all.

Once you've got to that size, even to maintain it you will need ****-loads of protein.

By all means, if you can get big on smaller quantities of protein so can fit a healthier more balanced diet into your lifestyle, go for it! But the majority of people have to make some form of sacrifice if they want serious size and aren't getting anywhere near the gains they want from lower amounts of protein.


----------



## winger

Agreed, but not everybody has to eat tons of protein.

There are two guys in my gym that are vegetarians and they are ripped and big. No they didn't get big eating protein first either. I am not disagreeing, I am saying their are exceptions to the rule.

I still think 30-50 grams of protein a meal is fine. Just eat more meals. 

Let's just say a guy wants to eat 2 grams per pound of bodyweight, he might have to limits some fats or carbs so he doesn't take in to many calories. Get my point sunshine?


----------



## big

winger said:


> Agreed, but not everybody has to eat tons of protein.
> 
> There are two guys in my gym that are vegetarians and they are ripped and big. No they didn't get big eating protein first either. I am not disagreeing, I am saying their are exceptions to the rule.
> 
> I still think 30-50 grams of protein a meal is fine. Just eat more meals.
> 
> Let's just say a guy wants to eat 2 grams per pound of bodyweight, he might have to limits some fats or carbs so he doesn't take in to many calories. Get my point sunshine?


I always get your point princess. Often when I post opinion, I put a disclaimer (e.g. except for genetically advanced individuals... etc).

I completely agree that not everyone has to eat tons of protein. Some people will get big and strong no matter what they eat. They are genetically very fortunate - but they are NOT who this article is aimed at. For every person who has got big/ripped using low/medium protein diets, there is a bus-load of people on the same diet who can't grow.

I am aiming this at people who are either beginners or intermediates who have stalled quite badly for the past few months. I envisage these to (generally) be guys in the 160-180lb range who are probably eating somewhere between 150-200g of protein a day yet are still struggling to grow. These are the guys I speak to in gyms all the time. If I said to them "eat plenty of veg, pulses and cous cous cos there's a couple of guys who have got big from doing this", I wouldn't be doing them much justice. If I said "you may not need lots of protein - it depends on your body", it also wouldn't give them much help. I have tried to remain fairly generic in the article yet still provide people with the basic tools for success. To do this, I have taken a look at what MANY genetically typical people have done in order to gain some decent size/strength and tried to relay that information as simply as I could.

If you know of a better way that works for many people (especially those who are already struggling), by all means post it up, as there are boat-loads of people on here who would be interested


----------



## Bulldozer

winger's ..... How to grow thread ...... nah! 

Winger's ...... How to find free porn on the net....... Hell yeah !


----------



## thestudbeast

This is funny cause most people I meet in the 160-180lbs range and not growing have got the protein thing down to a tee. They just don't realize they need tons of other food as well. I'd say this high protein theory is much better advice for endo's than ecto's. For Ecto's I'd say overall calorie consumption is much more important than overall protein consumption. This hold's especialy true if your training natural. Still every meal should be based around some type of protein. A protein powder can replace a protein meal but a vitamin pill can't replace fruit and veg (unfortuantly).


----------



## winger

Well you can take all the vitamins you want, it still cant replace porn....


----------



## big

What if it's vitamin-v


----------



## hackskii

The problem with maintaining a large protein diet the body gets used to this and will end up requiring more protein.

So, to go up to 400 grams of protein a day might be helpfull in the beginning but in the end that is where your set point is at.

Not only that but very high protein diets where guys eat this constantly will have problems of going catabolic if a meal is skipped.

The Sweedish writer named: Torbjorn Akerfeldt has a killer article on protein turnover.

I do think in my opinion that the very high protein diets offer little if any advantage over a long period of time.

Short term protein cycling would be ok, but long term is counter productive.

If you like I can post his stuff here for you to check out.

Very impressive.


----------



## winger

big said:


> What if it's vitamin-v


Funny man you are. 

Just link it Hackie.


----------



## SCJP

I've read several times on here that the average person can't digest more than 20g protein per hour, so if one sleeps for 8 hrs per day, that leaves 16 hrs for protein ingestion. Therefore, the max you could ingest would be 16hrs x 20g = 320g, so how on earth does one ingest 400g unless they are only sleeping for 4hrs?


----------



## winger

SCJP said:


> I've read several times on here that the average person can't digest more than 20g protein per hour, so if one sleeps for 8 hrs per day, that leaves 16 hrs for protein ingestion. Therefore, the max you could ingest would be 16hrs x 20g = 320g, so how on earth does one ingest 400g unless they are only sleeping for 4hrs?


I found this here, kinda cool.

1 gram of protein for my lean muscle mass came out to their 1.8 calculation. Just thought I would throw that out there. 

*How to Calculate Your Protein Needs:*

1. Weight in pounds divided by 2.2 = weight in kg

2. Weight in kg x 0.8-1.8 gm/kg = protein gm.

Use a lower number if you are in good health and are sedentary. Use a higher number (between 1 and 1.8) if you are under stress, are pregnant, are recovering from an illness, or if you are involved in consistent and intense weight or endurance training.

Example: 154 lb male who is a regular exerciser and lifts weights

154 lbs/2.2 = 70kg

70kg x 1.5 = 105 gm protein/day

*Calculating Protein as a Percentage of Total Calories*

Another way to calculate how much protein you need is by using daily calorie intake and the percentage of calories that will come from protein. To do this, you'll need to know how many calories your body needs each day. First, find out what your Basal Metabolic Rate is by using this BMR calculator. Using the activity calculator located on the same page, you can then calculate the number of calories you need each day to maintain where you are.

After you've figured out your maintenance calories, next figure out what percentage of your diet will come from protein. The percentage you choose will be based on your goals, fitness level, age, body type and metabolic rate. Most experts recommend that your protein intake be somewhere between 15 and 30%. When you've determined your desired percentage of protein, multiply that percentage by the total number of calories for the day.

*Example*:

For a 140lb female, calorie intake=1800 calories, protein=20%:

1800 x .20 = 360 calories from protein. Since 1 gram of protein = 4 calories, divide protein calories by four:

360/4 = 90 grams of protein per day.

No matter what your calculations are, remember that there are no magic foods or supplements that can replace the right training and the right diet. The foundation of any program, whether your goal is to lose weight or gain muscle, is a combination of strength training and a healthy diet that includes plenty of carbs, with a balance of protein and fat. To gain weight, you need to consistently eat more calories than your body uses.


----------



## big

SCJP said:


> I've read several times on here that the average person can't digest more than 20g protein per hour, so if one sleeps for 8 hrs per day, that leaves 16 hrs for protein ingestion. Therefore, the max you could ingest would be 16hrs x 20g = 320g, so how on earth does one ingest 400g unless they are only sleeping for 4hrs?


Absolute myth IMO.

Even if that true, you mention it's the "average person", a bodybuilder will have far more muscle mass, and therefore be able to digest more protein.

I have never known anyone, even those taking more than 400g a day, sh1t out an undigested chicken breast.


----------



## thestudbeast

> I have never known anyone, even those taking more than 400g a day, sh1t out an undigested chicken breast.


Have you been asking or checking poo's?

So I thought if you ate too much protein in one go (more than your body needs and can store) it gets converted into carbs by your body and used as energy or stored as body fat. So in essence eating large amounts of protein is like eating a very expensive carb is it not?


----------



## big

thestudbeast said:


> Have you been asking or checking poo's?
> 
> So I thought if you ate too much protein in one go (more than your body needs and can store) it gets converted into carbs by your body and used as energy or stored as body fat. So in essence eating large amounts of protein is like eating a very expensive carb is it not?


Only if you aren't actually utilising the protein.

The body's conversion of protein to glucose is incredibly expensive. It won't do it unless it absolutely has to.

To be honest, I would rather eat too much protein, have as much muscle building as possible, and waste a little, than not to have enough.

If you are happy with your gains from the protein you are taking in, stick with it. But like I've said several times now, if that's the case, you're not who this article is aimed at


----------



## Bulldozer

big said:


> To be honest, I would rather eat too much protein, have as much muscle building as possible, and waste a little, than not to have enough.


Agreed!!

I always shoot for 2g per lb of bodyweight. That way i know im covered.


----------



## SARGE

exellent read, top notch


----------



## Broady

Great post, very informative especially for an EX massive over trainer!


----------



## magicune

GOOD post... nice cycle for a beginner...

But why would u get back to d-bol again in weeks 9-12? whats that gona gain ? just toxic ur liver a bit more


----------



## big

magicune said:


> GOOD post... nice cycle for a beginner...
> 
> But why would u get back to d-bol again in weeks 9-12? whats that gona gain ? just toxic ur liver a bit more


It takes the guess work out of when to start PCT.

Switching to fast acting gear while allowing the slow acting gear to get out of your system is sensible.

Ideally switching to prop would be good - but a beginner doing EOD shots for 4 weeks right after spending 8 weeks of doing shots won't be too pleasant... which is why I recommended dbol.

TBH, IMO in sensible doses, dbol is no more liver toxic than a couple of beers.


----------



## winger

big said:


> TBH, IMO in sensible doses, dbol is no more liver toxic than a couple of beers.


Did someone say beer? I will drink to that! :beer1:


----------



## kevmac

question is how much protien can the body handle at once ist 50g or 60g ive heard different storys, as at the moment im probably getting 200g a day from shakes and 40 to 60g a day from tuna and cottage cheese


----------



## big

kevmac said:


> question is how much protien can the body handle at once ist 50g or 60g ive heard different storys, as at the moment im probably getting 200g a day from shakes and 40 to 60g a day from tuna and cottage cheese


It's different for everybody, but probably a LOT more than literature suggests - especially if you're lifting heavy.

I would suggest that getting 200g of protein from shakes and only 40-60g from whole foods PROBABLY isn't the best method though. IMO you should be getting as much as possible from food and make up the difference with shakes.


----------



## hackskii

big said:


> IMO you should be getting as much as possible from food and make up the difference with shakes.


Totally true.........


----------



## winger

big said:


> It's different for everybody, but probably a LOT more than literature suggests - especially if you're lifting heavy.
> 
> I would suggest that getting 200g of protein from shakes and only 40-60g from whole foods PROBABLY isn't the best method though. IMO you should be getting as much as possible from food and make up the difference with shakes.


Very nice Princess.


----------



## butcher907

Thanks bigeace:


----------



## boldster

can i ask a silly question or 2

What are parralel barbell rows and also back squats ATF

howcome there are no arms in there

and will doing this just twice per week work, would appreciate some feedback from this 1, thank you


----------



## big

boldster said:


> can i ask a silly question or 2
> 
> What are parralel barbell rows and also back squats ATF
> 
> howcome there are no arms in there
> 
> and will doing this just twice per week work, would appreciate some feedback from this 1, thank you


Parallel barbell rows are like normal barbell rows, but you're trying to keep your back as parallel as possible with the floor. This means sticking your ass out to stop your back from rounding.

Back squats ATF are "normal" squats nice and deep (ATF = ass to floor.... not literally, but you get the idea).

The bench, overhead, row and chins will pile mass on your arms. There is no need to waste recovery time with direct arm work at this level.


----------



## boldster

damn seriously, i mean i do this method when i do bent over rows and squats i do deep, so that routine as followed will do fantasticly, thank you big its nice to have well educated people such as yourself about.

Coming to read again i was always told to do 1 big muscle group and 1 small because you want more blood to that particular muscle, also i don't do the juice will i still gain from this progy, i'm not slating anyone i just want plain and simple and train damn hard like i do and grow humongess, well BIG.


----------



## crazycacti

well educated emmmmm..... emmmmm......

yeah suppose he does ok on this post  lmao!


----------



## big

boldster said:


> damn seriously, i mean i do this method when i do bent over rows and squats i do deep, so that routine as followed will do fantasticly, thank you big its nice to have well educated people such as yourself about.
> 
> Coming to read again i was always told to do 1 big muscle group and 1 small because you want more blood to that particular muscle, also i don't do the juice will i still gain from this progy, i'm not slating anyone i just want plain and simple and train damn hard like i do and grow humongess, well BIG.


Yes the routine will work fine whether you are on gear or not.

If 1 big muscle group and 1 small works for you, keep doing it. If however it isn't giving you your desired results, give this routine a try instead  It's not about more blood to a muscle... it's all about lifting more each session


----------



## boldster

me again, i took last week off a nice rest until Saturday when the mother-in-law passed away, So i hit the gym this morning with this routine tbh i didn't feel i did a good workout but i suppose give it time and determined to gain some size, thanks again big :thumbup1:


----------



## big

Just keep adding a small amount of weight to the bar each session dude. It's not about how it "feels", its about the results


----------



## iwannagetbig

bump


----------



## Hyuukai

I know there is alot of people already saying it but nice post specially for someone new like me


----------



## winger

Welcome to the board iwannagetbig!


----------



## chezzer

very helpful thank you indeed


----------



## boldster

well big, have been doing this routine now for 7 weeks now and have gained half a stone and benching 45kg a side for 7 reps but have now hit a plateau so probably take a break after next week for a week and go for a 3 day week with higher reps in the 10-12 range what do you think, thanks also for your advice big


----------



## big

If you've stalled, change things up. Either back off a bit and ramp up again, or swap out a couple of exercises for other compounds. Just focus on adding weight to the bar and keeping good form.


----------



## SCJP

jaypea74 said:


> i am worried about this bitch tits thing though, it seems that you spend almost as much on preventing bitch tits as you would on the roids. is that right? or am i looking in the wrong places.


Just buy a good bra & you'll be fine.


----------



## LordDecider

Hi Guys

I'm just coming to the end of the 12 week "Rock Hard" training plan from M&F (Newbie if you didn't already know) and am wondering where to go next. I've been bodybuilding for only a few months and wondered whether the "How to Grow" program was the best choice for me. Compared to what I've been doing there are less exercises, less sets, less reps and less training days in the program, which troubles me slightly: how can I improve by doing less? I am willing to take the advice of those more experienced and knowledgeable than me and if the consensus is to follow this plan, then that is what I shall do. However, I have read the Dual-Factor Training plan and that seems very do-able also. Could I combine the 2 routines in anyway, for example by using the exercises outlined in HTG plan and the loading, de-loading and intensity of the DFT plan.

Cheers

LD


----------



## big

Hey dude

If you've only been lifting a few months, follow a 2-3 day a week plan and learn the compounds. Give the routine outlined in "how to grow" a try and see how you get on. Newbies tend to go "all out" every session, and volume will hinder gains when doing this. The idea of the lower volume is that you can push yourself and really find out your limits.

That said, if you're really happy with the routine you've just been running, why not run it again?


----------



## SD

Trouble with these whole body compound workouts is that I dont 'feel' the muscle has trained enough.

By feel I mean the muscle doesn't give me the feedback to say 'hey I am toast, nice job!' perhaps because of the reduced volume?

I usually suffer more from CVS failure than muscular on the compounds, which is why I usually start a body part with one or two compounds, then move onto isolation, I would puke otherwise lol. Too many compound in a row like this make me very acidic, feeling sick, which doesnt go for a couple of hours unlike my 'normal' workouts where I leave pumped, worked and motivated.

I also train alone, these compound exercises done true to form, require a spotter really.

Would love to follow a simple programme like this but due to the workout being very uncomfortable and the fact that the volume doesnt make me 'feel' worked, I dont maintain them for long, all in my head I know :tongue:

Any way around these points Bigman?

thx

SD


----------



## winger

SportDr said:


> I usually start a body part with one or two compounds, then move onto isolation,


That is exactly what I do.

Nice to see you again SD.


----------



## big

I guess ultimately it depends whether you want to FEEL like you've had a productive workout, or whether you actually want to have a productive workout 

More often than not, IMO, if someone feels like they've toasted themselves in a workout, then they've probably done too much most of the time. That's not to say you shouldn't push yourself - just that there's a limit, and a time and a place 

If you train alone, and don't have a power rack to allow you to safely push yourself on compounds, I would tend to reduce intensity and up the volume a little. Let the volume do the stimulus in that case.

Ultimately, if you are getting satisfactory progress from 1-2 compounds followed by isolation to failure on a typical bodybuilding split, by all means keep doing it. But the fact that you're asking the question implies that you're possibly not happy with your progress.

If your previous experience of multiple compounds all to failure, then you will likely have found it prohibitively challenging. I would recommend dropping the isolation stuff (or using it sparingly), and do all compounds with lighter weights, at least until you get used to the concept of 3-4 full (or half) compound lifts per session before ramping up the weight. That's not to say that isolation exercises are useless - they are great for hitting weaknesses... but if (like most) your weakness is that you just generally want to get bigger and stronger, it's the compounds that you need to hit until you really stall.

Have a read of the journals of DMCC and TH&S... these are great examples of guys who are lifting more each session and getting good progress. Both are focussing on compounds, although do add some isolation work for weak points.

In fact, if you are after ongoing advice on what you're doing, post up a journal yourself so that others can comment. It's also a good record for you.


----------



## paulo

agree with above -overtraining in volume and frequency-or both is usualy problem for most people-me included for years,after stagnated gains,injurys etc and plenty reading i basically do compounds hard for 6-8s -bench,chins,dips,press,leg press(due to squat injuries)only isolation is preacher calf raise and hyperextensions.

fell better now,fresh evrytime and gaining again after 22years


----------



## hackskii

Well, one good indicator is if you are not progressing in strenght, you are probably overtraining, I mean if you are putting any effert out.

I remember for probably 20 years I overtrained, hell it kept me leaner, but once I dropped the volume and frequency, I started to grow.


----------



## paulo

hackskii said:


> Well, one good indicator is if you are not progressing in strenght, you are probably overtraining, I mean if you are putting any effert out.
> 
> I remember for probably 20 years I overtrained, hell it kept me leaner, but once I dropped the volume and frequency, I started to grow.


same for me---wisdom with age and all that:thumbup1:


----------



## SD

THanks for that answer Bigman, I am happy with my progress but I have done a fair bit of research that all suggests a compound programme followed as you put into your initial post is much more optimal for growth.

I know it should work, but for the reasons I gave earlier, I cant make myself stick to it and go back to my normal routine, which can get old sometimes.

I am re-starting trianing after a year layoff from motorbike injuries, so I thought I would have a fresh approach, Geos diet (which goes against my protein philosophy  ) and your Compound programme (which goes against my no puking philosophy  ) should be a great place to start and I will try my best to stick to that programme rigidly :cool2:

Only slight flaw to my plan is that I moved house a month ago, single handed and strained my back in the process, it doesnt hurt under normal circumstances but doesnt take much to start hurting again, will work around the injury and then hit the compounds as soon as its better.

Thanks for the thread Big, good to see you and you also Wingman :thumb:


----------



## alanp

from what I have picked up on my short time on here, basically there is only so far you need to work a muscle to stimulate it to grow, any more being a pointless excercise needlessly burning calories? and that the most important part of training isnt how you spend your time in the gym its how you spend your time out of the gym ie rest, sleep and diet. am i right in thinking that?

also if trying to get bigger would doing cardio hinder progress? i know we need to do cardio to keep lean and keep the cv system fit but would it help size and weight gains if cardio was cut back and restarted once muscle has been built?


----------



## big

Sensible cardio will not hinder progress. In fact, it may even help protein synthesis and assist your growth. Not to mention the benefit on your heart.

Obviously though, if you're going to do 2 hours of cardio and then do a weights session right after, it will impact your ability to put in a decent weights session... but then that's not sensible 

Sensible cardio would be 40 mins or so of low-moderate intensity, preferably on days you aren't weight training, and/or 20 mins of slightly higher intensity cardio done after a weights session.

Everybody is different though - you need to figure out what you can handle. But the whole "drop cardio completely so I can grow better" is most definitely flawed.


----------



## alanp

smashin Big thanks for that.

am i right with the first part of my post tho?


----------



## big

Yes - to an extent. There is an importance to volume, but it depends on the individual and what you are doing with regards to intensity and frequency.

What you are saying about the importance of diet and rest is pretty much spot on. Although what you do in the gym is important, it is diet and recovery that separates the men from the boys


----------



## alanp

ta much, I have been out of ideas for what to try in the gym over the last few weeks so i think i will give it a try and see how i get on.

thanks again big


----------



## SD

Ok Big, can you help me with some possible tweaks to your programme to suit my lifestyle please? Its not that its flawed, I just think I can do three workouts a week instead of two without overtraining, plus I love going to the gym so I actually want to spend the time there.

Currently the single factor programme is:

Mon

----

Flat Bench Press 2 x 8

Parallel Barbell Rows 2 x 8

Weighted Chins 2 x 8

Standing Military Press 2 x 8

Thurs

------

Back Squats ATF 2 x 8

Stiff-Legged Deadlifts 2 x 8

Calf raise 2 x 10

Weighted ab crunch (hold dumbell on your chest) 2 x 10

What I would like to do is something like:

*Mon*

Flat Dumbell Bench Press 2 x 8

Parallel Barbell Rows 2 x 8

Lat Pulldowns 2 x 8 ( I am 100kg and a little heavy to start chinning until I have strengthened up)

Seated Military Press 2 x 8 (bad lower back atm, will move to standing next week.)

Leg Raises 2 x 10 (this is extra)

Did this yesterday, went really well and felt like I had a good workout, I have minimal DOMS too, though I did use Pro-Recover for the first time here also.

*Thurs*

Back Squats ATF 2 x 8

Stiff-Legged Deadlifts 2 x 8

Calf raise 2 x 10

Weighted ab crunch (hold dumbell on your chest) 2 x 10

*Sat*

Deadlifts 2 x 8

Upright Rows 2 x 8

Maybe some arm exercises ,EZ Bar etc.

Finish with side bends or another ab exercise.

What do you think BIG? it retains some of your initial principles but I have a habit of doing more than I should  enthusiastic as I am ha ha.

The two arm exercises o n Sat may be an error from an overtraining pov and are technically isolation, whats your thoughts there mate?

Do you have an alternative suggestion for a 3 day a week plan? perhaps just going back to workout one would be easier on the third session? so doing a workout every 2 days, over the course of the year, the workouts would even themselves out, or is the key to the programmes success the two day split?

Whats your thoughts on mixing the upper and lower body exercises into each day so that you could potentially double your growth? Having tried these before I know that they are exhausting as they include about 8 exercises per session to cover all body parts and I dont stick to them well.

Alternatively, I could just take the plunge to dual factor, but your recommendation was that I wait until I can Dead 2.5 times my bw, which I can't....yet! Is that lean BW or Total BW btw?

Sorry for all the questions, on the plus side, should give an old thread new life.

THanks

SD


----------



## big

You are thinking along the right lines dude.

I would say that if you want to do a 3 day split, single factor, you can't go far wrong with a legs/push/pull split. This will allow you the scope to add the extra stuff without hitting back 3x/week with high intensity (which you are doing now with rows, SLDL and then regular deads).

Alternatively, like you say, use the two workouts and alternate them split over 3 days... although you might find that once you're ramping things up a lot, you will struggle with recovery as you're only allowing 4-5 days instead of 7 before using the same lifts again. But you're an experienced guy and know your strengths/weaknesses, so will know your own recovery ability best 

Having said all that, I can't see anything much wrong with what you've listed for the routine per se (other than doing deads two days after squats/SLDL may be rough)... so you could just try it and see what happens. In fact, that's probably what I'd recommend for now.

With regards to the isolation, by all means throw some in if you feel it will help... but don't let it hamper recovery. Look to add weight to the 2x8 core lifts each session... if you struggle, drop all other stuff. If you just want to put "extra" stuff in there cos you like going to the gym... rather than hard arm work, look into pre-hab and re-hab type work (rotator cuff exercises, stretching - you will know that stuff better than me) and/or some dynamic lifts to build explosive power. Some light oly type lifts (assuming you are confident with form) done explosively (i.e. snatch, clean, clean and jerk, power cleans, oly squats, front squats etc) are also useful... so long as you are going REALLY light (we are talking 60% 1RM for lots of sets of 2-3, done explosively with very little rest). But again, drop all that stuff if you struggle. The last thing you want is to not be able to add weight to your squat/bench/ohp because you've been p1ssing about with less important stuff 

At the end of the day, for an intermediate, think of any routine as a 4-6 week "sprint". Usually pretty much anything sensible will work for about that length of time, after which you will probably need to change something up. That's the time to experiment and find out what really works for you.

At 100kg, there's no reason why you shouldn't pull a mid-200's deadlift using conventional single factor training before having to switch for something more dual-factor and/or conjugated oriented. Everyone is built differently of course, but it's a reasonable rule of thumb.


----------



## SD

Yes thats brilliant Big thanks for that :thumbup1:

I will stick to the programme as wrote and use the third session for core exercises, RC work, light oly lifts, cardio/swimming and perhaps some arm work if it doesnt hold me back, the purpose of the third session after all wasn't more growth but just to have another session in the gym really and keep the metabolism high :thumb:

Like the idea of prioritising the first two sessions, with the third being used to strengthen weaknesses but never at the cost of the first two.

I know what I am doing now so session two for me tomorrow and in 4-6 weeks will be back in touch for some change up suggestions 

Thanks again

SD


----------



## big

Good luck dude... let us know how you get on


----------



## alanp

not trying to contradict either of you and obviously you know your own body sportdr but if it was me on the modified routine you posted then i think if i did arm work on saturday then my benching and rows would suffer on the monday. thats just me personally tho you might be able to recover in time to be ok.


----------



## SD

alanp said:


> not trying to contradict either of you and obviously you know your own body sportdr but if it was me on the modified routine you posted then i think if i did arm work on saturday then my benching and rows would suffer on the monday. thats just me personally tho you might be able to recover in time to be ok.


Yeh I could recover in two days  Good point, will keep the intensity low so I dont do too much damage, I need my guns for the back routine you are correct ,thanks for spotting that :thumb:

SD


----------



## alanp

need to keep the guns fresh for working the bigger body parts.


----------



## duracell99

good tips


----------



## Winstonsausage

so i tried this routine this week, and it basically feels like ive wasted my time. I dunno, what i was doing before (isolation exercises) seemed to be doing the trick, people were noticing i was getting bigger, i'm still on the lean/slim side but i am really stuggling to see how this workout will help me and when i dont even break a sweat.


----------



## big

Ok, firstly if what you were doing was working, why on earth would you change anything?

And secondly, you cannot judge a routine by what happens in a single week. And if you aren't breaking a sweat, you aren't lifting enough weight.


----------



## Bulldozer

I am also doing this routine and im very disappointed with the results.....

my Johnson still hasnt grown


----------



## hackskii

Winstonsausage said:


> so i tried this routine this week, and it basically feels like ive wasted my time. I dunno, what i was doing before (isolation exercises) seemed to be doing the trick, people were noticing i was getting bigger, i'm still on the lean/slim side but i am really stuggling to see how this workout will help me and when i dont even break a sweat.


When you build a building, you start with the foundation.

Once the foundation is built, then the building can be built.

If the foundation is strong, the building is strong.

If the foundation is weak, so is the building.

You my friend, need to start with the foundation, just because you dont see the building, does not mean the foundation is not being built.


----------



## Winstonsausage

hackskii said:


> When you build a building, you start with the foundation.
> 
> Once the foundation is built, then the building can be built.
> 
> If the foundation is strong, the building is strong.
> 
> If the foundation is weak, so is the building.
> 
> You my friend, need to start with the foundation, just because you dont see the building, does not mean the foundation is not being built.


I never said not seeing any "buildings" being "built". I'm saying the workout intensity just felt like i was wasting my time. Did it again today, same result. I leave the gym feeling like i had just gone in. I dunno, does this work for everybody? or does it depend on build?


----------



## big

Winstonsausage said:


> I never said not seeing any "buildings" being "built". I'm saying the workout intensity just felt like i was wasting my time. Did it again today, same result. I leave the gym feeling like i had just gone in. I dunno, does this work for everybody? or does it depend on build?


Please stop doing it.

However you're doing it, you're not doing it right. The idea is NOT to leave the gym feeling like you've just gone in, so you're doing something wrong.

The workout intensity is down to YOU. The volume is what is being held back here. Clearly you're going in with a "this can't possibly work" attitude, and you're not lifting with enough intensity.

My biggest confusion is that you were doing something that you claim was working well (why not stick to it?!?), yet you've decided to switch things up anyway, and are expecting some new results in your first session or two.


----------



## Tall

Winstonsausage said:


> so i tried this routine this week, and it basically feels like ive wasted my time. I dunno, what i was doing before (isolation exercises) seemed to be doing the trick, people were noticing i was getting bigger, i'm still on the lean/slim side but i am really stuggling to see how this workout will help me and when i dont even break a sweat.


Work harder then...!!! :cursing:


----------



## SD

Hey Guys,

Havent updated since October so here goes!

Followed the upper/lower body routines almost to the letter, I have a lower back injury from moving house so have substituted a couple of exercises while I recover e.g Bent over row for one are bench row. Not Ideal but I need to be able to tie my laces lol!

Outside the two training days, I do cardio, core and abdomen.

In addition to the training I have been eating 4000 cals, pretty much as per Geo's diet, with extra fruit :thumb:

Each week I recorded my weights so that I could add more as I went along which so far I havent yet stalled and its been nearly 8 weeks!! I just keep getting stronger but I think I am peaking now and damn its hard work lol!

Well I am pleased to say that my shoulder press started at 22kg, I am now lifting 32kg! Which is nearly as heavy as what I was lifting before my bike crash and my one year lay off, my bench is still going strong 36kg a side ( I use Dumbells) and will go up next session, so not stalling yet!

On a body perspective, I have noticed my weight hasn't changed at all (105kg) but my bodyfat has dropped an estiimated 4% by caliper reading! So effectively I could have dropped as much as 4kg of fat and replaced it with muscle. Not bad for 2 months graft lol.

I am very happy to have done this programme, I always did five part splits before, but injury often plagued me. This routine has given me fast and measurable results without giving me any injury or leaving me drained and unable to keep up with all the other responsibilities in my life, I love it! I even have my friend at the gym doing it, she looks forward to every session.

Its a novice programme and I am not a novice exactly, but I can't see me changing this out for some time as it works so well (for me), perhaps one day go to dual factor but if it aint broke why fix it lol....

Thanks Big, sweet programme bud.

SD


----------



## SD

Winstonsausage said:


> I never said not seeing any "buildings" being "built". I'm saying the workout intensity just felt like i was wasting my time. Did it again today, same result. I leave the gym feeling like i had just gone in. I dunno, does this work for everybody? or does it depend on build?


Your in control of the intensity thats the point, so if you feel you havent worked its not the programme that is to blame.

Did you record your weights? next week increase them and keep increasing them until you stall as per the programme, you will soon enough find it working for you.

Dont forget the set listed are work sets, you still need to be doing warm up sets before each exercise.

What are you using as a reference for not feeling worked? pumped? exhausted? You dont need to be on your last legs to have actually stimulated muscle, in fact if you are starting out, its much better if you dont hit your muscles that hard.

SD


----------



## paulo

hackskii said:


> When you build a building, you start with the foundation.
> 
> *Once the foundation is built, then the building can be built.*
> 
> *If the foundation is strong, the building is strong.*
> 
> *If the foundation is weak, so is the building.*
> 
> *You my friend, need to start with the foundation, just because you dont see the building, does not mean the foundation is not being built.*


*classic advice:thumbup1:*


----------



## bkoz

,BIG no affence is,nt twice a week training for mantanence.I,d love to train 2 times a week and grow.


----------



## Bulldozer

bkoz said:


> ,BIG no affence is,nt twice a week training for mantanence.I,d love to train 2 times a week and grow.


I train twice a week and i grow


----------



## SD

bkoz said:


> ,BIG no affence is,nt twice a week training for mantanence.I,d love to train 2 times a week and grow.


 I train twice a week and grow very well, currently I am training three, but the third day is mostly cardio and weakness training, I guess its down to how you perform the exercises..

SD


----------



## big

bkoz said:


> ,BIG no affence is,nt twice a week training for mantanence.I,d love to train 2 times a week and grow.


Twice a week training is for people who struggle to recover (i.e. most normal people!), and/or for those who can get the job done in just two sessions 

If your diet is spot on all the time, you have great genetics, you get plenty of rest, and you don't have stress in your life, then you'll probably get much better results lifting 3-4 times (or more) per week. But most of us don't have that luxury.

If you're succeeding by lifting more than twice a week, then by all means keep doing it. But if you're not getting any progress, it must be worth a shot


----------



## SD

Hiya Big,

I have reached my first stalling point on the push/pull day, took me nearly two months lol but its mainly due to the big increases in weight on the dumbells at my gym, they go 28,32,36 for example, times that by two and its a big jump each week lol! Also the alternative to chins and rows I am using because of my back and (I am too heavy for chins :tongue: ) uses plates that jump up too fast also.

As a result I deloaded as per the dual factor, for example I went from 36kg dumbells, back two dumbells to 28kg. I find these pretty ok and can do more than 8 reps, should I just bang them out? Also did I deload far back enough/too much?

When I do another cycle, I will be veeeeery tempted to go back in the gym more than my current three days. Do you think assisted trainees could do more than the prescribed two workouts a week? You know I would live in the gym if I could :tongue:

Thanks mate, great programme, stupidly simple yet so effective!!

SD


----------



## hackskii

SportDr said:


> Hiya Big,
> 
> I have reached my first stalling point on the push/pull day, took me nearly two months lol but its mainly due to the big increases in weight on the dumbells at my gym, they go 28,32,36 for example, times that by two and its a big jump each week lol! Also the alternative to chins and rows I am using because of my back and (I am too heavy for chins :tongue: ) uses plates that jump up too fast also.
> 
> As a result I deloaded as per the dual factor, for example I went from 36kg dumbells, back two dumbells to 28kg. I find these pretty ok and can do more than 8 reps, should I just bang them out? Also did I deload far back enough/too much?
> 
> When I do another cycle, I will be veeeeery tempted to go back in the gym more than my current three days. Do you think assisted trainees could do more than the prescribed two workouts a week? You know I would live in the gym if I could :tongue:
> 
> Thanks mate, great programme, stupidly simple yet so effective!!
> 
> SD


Good question bro.

Bump for Mr. Big... :beer:


----------



## winger

Oh it's Mr. Big now....lol


----------



## big

SportDr said:


> Hiya Big,
> 
> I have reached my first stalling point on the push/pull day, took me nearly two months lol but its mainly due to the big increases in weight on the dumbells at my gym, they go 28,32,36 for example, times that by two and its a big jump each week lol! Also the alternative to chins and rows I am using because of my back and (I am too heavy for chins :tongue: ) uses plates that jump up too fast also.
> 
> As a result I deloaded as per the dual factor, for example I went from 36kg dumbells, back two dumbells to 28kg. I find these pretty ok and can do more than 8 reps, should I just bang them out? Also did I deload far back enough/too much?
> 
> When I do another cycle, I will be veeeeery tempted to go back in the gym more than my current three days. Do you think assisted trainees could do more than the prescribed two workouts a week? You know I would live in the gym if I could :tongue:
> 
> Thanks mate, great programme, stupidly simple yet so effective!!
> 
> SD


Hey dude. Glad it's working for you 

Those jumps are pretty darn massive. In an ideal world you'll be jumping by around 5% each week for the first few weeks, then 2%, and then down to 1% (or less) if necessary to keep on pushing. Your DB jumps represent nearly 15% each week, which is harsh! It indicates that the starting point would have to be really light, and the loading would be harsh. That said, if it works for you, it works for you  In an ideal world though, I would recommend barbell activity with small plates (you can even get 0.5kg micro-plates if necessary after several weeks of 5kg, then 2.5kg increments).

With regards to scaling back and ramping up, it's an individual thing. But I would be looking to hit PBs around week 4-5 as a starting point. If you find that's too early or late, you can adjust as required next time round.

With regards to more than three days in the gym, you have to realise that you will be increasing both the volume (over the week) AND the frequency. The only other parameter you have is intensity. So you either blow off the intensity (which could be fine - lots of people, including myself, gain well on volume without intensity), OR you risk taking a ride on the over-train  Unless of course you split a session into two, but then you'll only be in the gym for circa 20 mins per session! The other thing you could try is a day of speed work.

By all means give 3-4+ sessions a try, but remember that if you aren't able to keep putting the weights up, and give those PBs a smashing at least in most cases every lifting cycle, something is wrong, and you should default back to what works for you (i.e. what you've just done). Your enthusiasm is admired, but sadly over-enthusiasm can be a lot of people's downfall.


----------



## big

winger said:


> Oh it's Mr. Big now....lol


"Mr. Big" to them. "Princess" to you, darling


----------



## SD

Thanks Big, yes I thought those jumps were too large, probably why I stalled! I just dont get the same effect from Barbell Press that I do from dumbell, but will switch and give it a try, that will make scaling back easier too.

Cycle is a way off anywho, but will try to restrain my enthusiasm  :whistling: and see how it goes!

Cheers Big...I mean Mr Big!

SD


----------



## soze

quality mate


----------



## winger

big said:


> "Mr. Big" to them. "Princess" to you, darling


Thanks Princess. xxxooo


----------



## POPPA BEAR

HMMMM tempted to give this a bash in the new year, been training hit a la mentzer every 4 days.

I'm thinking back to basics on my Dave P diet maybe this will work nicely ?


----------



## Howe

Great Read!


----------



## wmullen

Fantastic thread!

Familiar with the 4 week loading concept before hitting PB's, but what if you are coming back after a long layoff?

Do you load for 4 weeks to previous PB's or load to what you estimate your current de-trained PB's are? Muscle memory is a wonderful thing but I don't think it would allow you to get back to where you were with just 4 weeks of loading after a lengthy lay-off? (Unless you're Kevin Levrone lol)


----------



## big

wmullen said:


> Fantastic thread!
> 
> Familiar with the 4 week loading concept before hitting PB's, but what if you are coming back after a long layoff?
> 
> Do you load for 4 weeks to previous PB's or load to what you estimate your current de-trained PB's are? Muscle memory is a wonderful thing but I don't think it would allow you to get back to where you were with just 4 weeks of loading after a lengthy lay-off? (Unless you're Kevin Levrone lol)


You would typically need a lot longer than 4 weeks.

I would use a current PB as the weights you would be looking to beat in week 4. It depends on so many factors, but assuming a lay off of several months plus, you will be setting yourself up for failure by attempting to hit lifetime PBs in 4 weeks.


----------



## scotty_new

excellet post:thumb:


----------



## wmullen

big said:


> You would typically need a lot longer than 4 weeks.
> 
> I would use a current PB as the weights you would be looking to beat in week 4. It depends on so many factors, but assuming a lay off of several months plus, you will be setting yourself up for failure by attempting to hit lifetime PBs in 4 weeks.


Ok understand, the tricky bit is estimating current PB's after a long lay-off!

I'm currently deciding whether to go with single factor training or dual factor. I've been on a low volume HIT (Yates-esque) type routine for a number of years now and have made no progress in strength or mass (weight 88-90kg).

I tried DC for a while as it seems to be the whole rage and it fitted with my ingrained HIT anti-volume principles, but I burned out very fast training natural and incurred a lower back injury with intense, frequent DL'ing, hence the layoff question.

Would it be ok to substitute trap bar deads for squats as i seem to injure myself on squats every time I get within spitting distance of a PB. Ok, I know that's due to deteriorating form, but it happens every time. With trap bar deads i never seem to lose form and i can use more weight on them, repping 180kg.


----------



## big

wmullen said:


> Ok understand, the tricky bit is estimating current PB's after a long lay-off!
> 
> I'm currently deciding whether to go with single factor training or dual factor. I've been on a low volume HIT (Yates-esque) type routine for a number of years now and have made no progress in strength or mass (weight 88-90kg).
> 
> I tried DC for a while as it seems to be the whole rage and it fitted with my ingrained HIT anti-volume principles, but I burned out very fast training natural and incurred a lower back injury with intense, frequent DL'ing, hence the layoff question.
> 
> Would it be ok to substitute trap bar deads for squats as i seem to injure myself on squats every time I get within spitting distance of a PB. Ok, I know that's due to deteriorating form, but it happens every time. With trap bar deads i never seem to lose form and i can use more weight on them, repping 180kg.


Don't estimate it then; actually do a current PB. It doesn't have to be a 1RM (for safety's sake after a lay-off that would be insanity!). But work up to an 8RM for instance, and use the online calculators to figure out the 1RM from that. Always better to go on evidence rather than estimates. You don't even have to literally go to failure.... you sound experienced enough to know when you could only do another 1 rep on a set, and back off then.

Trap bar deads are awesome, but I would seriously consider keeping squats in. Even if you do tb deads as your main exercise, and then do a couple of lighter 20 rep sets of squats, staying well away from PBs. I personally don't think any routine is complete without squats. Have you tried box squats... these are great too and help your form.

If I were you, I would go single factor until you "use up" the muscle memory. Once you're back in to it and stall, switch to dual factor.


----------



## wmullen

big said:


> Don't estimate it then; actually do a current PB. It doesn't have to be a 1RM (for safety's sake after a lay-off that would be insanity!). But work up to an 8RM for instance, and use the online calculators to figure out the 1RM from that. Always better to go on evidence rather than estimates. You don't even have to literally go to failure.... you sound experienced enough to know when you could only do another 1 rep on a set, and back off then.
> 
> Trap bar deads are awesome, but I would seriously consider keeping squats in. Even if you do tb deads as your main exercise, and then do a couple of lighter 20 rep sets of squats, staying well away from PBs. I personally don't think any routine is complete without squats. Have you tried box squats... these are great too and help your form.
> 
> If I were you, I would go single factor until you "use up" the muscle memory. Once you're back in to it and stall, switch to dual factor.


Ok big, thanks for the advice, the online calculator suggestion is good, will figure it all out and construct a plan!

Another question....I've done a few cycles in the past but have been clean now about 6 months and well through PCT with test levels high end of normal, cholesterol, BP everything good to go. I really want to train natural for a while but only if it's possible to make gains (albeit small), I don't want to end up spinning my wheels otherwise i'll just hit the juice again. Is it really possible for someone following such a training program to make progress naturally having done a number of cycles in the past and at a decent intermediate level?


----------



## big

Yes, definitely. Given that you are below your previous bests, there is no reason why you shouldn't be able to get damn close to them, if not better them, before needing to turn back to gear. I would make sure you at least beat your previous natural bests before turning back to steroids. Clearly it would be a hell of a lot harder work to beat your all time bests while natural. But you should strive to get as close as possible.


----------



## wmullen

big said:


> Yes, definitely. Given that you are below your previous bests, there is no reason why you shouldn't be able to get damn close to them, if not better them, before needing to turn back to gear. I would make sure you at least beat your previous natural bests before turning back to steroids. Clearly it would be a hell of a lot harder work to beat your all time bests while natural. But you should strive to get as close as possible.


Ok mate, you've inspired me, cheers!


----------



## Andy Dee

Ill tell you one thing guys, this training method is no joke.

I started 2 days a week for the first year or so and I made most of my gains within that year only working out on a 2 day split - No bullsh1t.


----------



## andraxtotal

more than interesting


----------



## The Sweeney

Excellent thread and a routine I think I'll try as a beginner back after a 10 year 'rest'.

May I ask if it would work to replace the day two stiff leg dead lift with a conventional dead lift (either keeping or discarding the squat)?

I have a long and slightly weak/vulnerable lower back at 6'4" and can't see me SLDL too much nd would prefer to regular DL as a major compound that would also engage the quads.

Any thoughts?


----------



## youngmuscle13

Great post very helpful, thanks


----------



## medmongrel

Can one switch the barbell for dumbbells for most of the moves ?


----------

