# Keto - how long



## M_at (May 2, 2009)

How long have most people here managed to keep a keto diet up for?

I'm starting to flag a little after about a month and 2 weeks.

I've been cycling it at the weekends but it's really starting to drag now - a bout of illness in the middle didn't help either.


----------



## marc5180 (May 31, 2007)

Im thinking of starting one very soon. How has your keto diet gone, how much did you lose?


----------



## M_at (May 2, 2009)

About 3kg if you take scales as the only measurement - but I'm hoping that when I next do some measurements in a couple of weeks the fat loss will be more than the weight loss.


----------



## Jimmy1 (Aug 14, 2003)

try upping the fats a little

the fat loss wont be as fast, but the diet easier to stick to

also a point to think on

L.MacDonalds books UD2 recomends a 1-2 week break every 8-12 weeks of the diet to let your metabolism normalise...eat maintenance kcals in this time, and gain some sanity!!


----------



## Round-2 (Jul 20, 2009)

5 days in, im still on virgin stage. Assuming i'm doing it right.

I could get used to living on this kind of food quite easily, lovin steak eggs cheese etc, my biggest temptation was watching the wife guzzle a cold pepsi today while I was sipping water. I miss my porridge n fruit too.

Guess it all comes down to how much you want it, I want it all back more than pepsi for sure. But then I had a lot of years not being able to train, that makes you unbelievably hungry.

Mind over matter  hang in there.


----------



## WRT (May 21, 2009)

3 days pmsl, it's not junk food that messes it up for me I just keep eating too many cashews so will be coming out of ketosis.


----------



## B-GJOE (May 7, 2009)

I've just come off Keto (CKD) after doing it since January this year. The diet got me in the condition seen in my avvy. Even now, I'm never going to a carb based diet. After a week of binging after my show, I am now on a controlled carb diet. 80g of oats with honey and cinnamon first thing in morning. And Malto 60g after training. Rest of calories fat and protein, and a little carbs in my salads. I am a big fan of Keto tbh.


----------



## Jimmy1 (Aug 14, 2003)

but is ketosis necesary???

im not making statements, just bringing up debate

again...read the ultimate diet 2 for more info


----------



## M_at (May 2, 2009)

Jimmy said:


> try upping the fats a little
> 
> the fat loss wont be as fast, but the diet easier to stick to
> 
> ...


It's not that I feel less full - I have a good amount of fats with most of it from eggs, cheese and good oils.

It's more that I'm starting to get a little bit bored of broccoli and would kill for something sweet.

I think I'll follow the advice and take a week off as there's still plenty to lose and It'll drive me mad otherwise :bounce:

Also - I'd love some booze - just a small glass of wine or a small bottle of beer once a week! :beer:


----------



## WRT (May 21, 2009)

Jimmy said:


> but is ketosis necesary???
> 
> again...read the ultimate diet 2 for more info


Ultimately I suppose it isn't i'm still trying to keep the carbs below 80g so I should still drop the fat, which seems to be the case. :thumbup1:


----------



## Jimmy1 (Aug 14, 2003)

cut n paste from UD2

What about ketosis?

If you're familiar with Bodyopus or any of the other cyclical diets of this sort, you're

probably wondering about the importance (or not) of ketosis, which I haven't mentioned at all.

Ketosis is a metabolic state that occurs when fatty acid oxidation is ramped up to a very high

degree, such that the liver is unable to use them all for energy. This occurs under conditions of

total starvation, low-carbohydrate diets, and even extensive endurance exercise. Under those

circumstances, fatty acids are only partially oxidized. This results in excess acetyl-CoA which is

then converted to ketones which are released into the bloodstream. When ketones accumulate

beyond a certain concentration, the body is said to be in ketosis. When ketosis occurs and blood

glucose is low (as in the case of a low-carbohydrate/ketogenic diet), ketones become the preferred

fuel in many tissues.

Now, ketones have a very important role in human physiology: to provide the brain with

fuel when glucose is available in only low amounts. Recall from previous chapters that the brain

can't use fatty acids for fuel; its primary fuel is glucose. When glucose becomes unavailable, the

body needs an alternate energy source; that source is ketones. In fact, after 3 weeks of ketosis,

the brain will derive nearly 75% of its total energy requirements from ketones; the remaining

comes from glucose which is made in the body from amino acids, pyruvate, lactate and glycerol

(from fat metabolism).

Depending on who you talk to, ketosis is either thought to be wonderfully beneficial or

deadly. As with most extremist stances, the truth is somewhere in the middle. It's true that

diabetic ketoacidosis, which only occurs in Type I (insulin dependent diabetics) can be lethal but

this level of ketosis will never develop in non-diabetics. There are various feedback loops that

prevent it. And, under certain conditions, ketosis has potential benefits.

One is protein sparing. Arguably the main reason the brain shifts to using ketones during

starvation is to reduce its reliance on glucose; this means less body protein needs to be broken

down to make glucose. In studies where protein intake is too low, ketosis may also be protein

sparing. For the most part, if protein intake is adequate to begin with, I haven't seen any

convincing data that ketosis has much of an additional benefit.

One problem may be that lean individuals can't make enough ketones to exert a protein

sparing effect; this is a consequence of the difficulties in mobilizing fatty acids in the first place.

Even during total starvation, when you'd expect ketosis to have the greatest impact, ketones

aren't protein sparing in lean individuals (<15% bodyfat or so). Perhaps this is the shining

moment for MCTs, by producing ketones in larger amounts, we can exert a protein sparing effect

beyond simply providing quick fat energy. Assuming protein intake is sufficient in the first place,

I still tend to doubt ketosis has any huge advantages in this regards. If it does, it simply hasn't

shown up in real world experience. Bodyopus did generate better fat loss and less muscle loss for

some people, but I suspect this had more to do with the carb-load.

Page 49

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com

A second argued advantage is that ketones are inefficient, that you'll lose more fat for a

given calorie deficit in ketosis than without. The mechanism given is that one pound of fat

converted to ketones doesn't provide the same energy as one pound of fat burned directly. This

may be somewhat true but the difference is minor, amounting to a few percentage points at

most. As well, except in very obese individuals, most tissue of the body aren't using ketones past

the first couple of weeks; they are using fatty acids. There is also a small loss of ketones in the

urine but this also tends to amount to very little. As with the protein sparing effect, increased fat

loss from being in ketosis just hasn't shown up in the real world with lean athletes and

bodybuilders.

For the most part, I simply see ketosis as a "side-effect" of fat loss (burning to be more

accurate), more than something to be explicitly sought out. That is, when you accelerate fat

oxidation with the methods above, you tend to enter ketosis. Ketosis in and of itself isn't any big

deal. For that reason, I won't talk about monitoring ketone levels with Ketostix or anything like

that. Frankly, using a low-carbohydrate/ketogenic diet for the fat loss phase of the UD2 has

more to do with lowering insulin, raising catecholamines, and ramping up fat oxidation; ketosis is

simply a tangential effect. A low-carbohydrate diet is also the only way to reduce calories as low

as I'm going to suggest; there simply isn't caloric room for many carbohydrates in the fat loss

phase of the diet.


----------



## M_at (May 2, 2009)

Jimmy said:


> but is ketosis necesary???
> 
> im not making statements, just bringing up debate
> 
> again...read the ultimate diet 2 for more info


No - Ketosis is not necessary. But I find it easier to steadily lose weight on keto style diets. I've always been a bit of a fat bastard as the pics in my journal show.

I want to get to a point where I'm no longer carry the extra tonnage and they shift to a decent lower carb than I used to eat but sensible diet to gain some lean muscle mass.


----------



## Jimmy1 (Aug 14, 2003)

WRT said:


> Ultimately I suppose it isn't i'm still trying to keep the carbs below 80g so I should still drop the fat, which seems to be the case. :thumbup1:


this is all imo and from personal experience

the last time i did a keto i stuck to 60g carbs a day all in the morning

i lost 2-3lb fat a week untill week 4 where it literally dropped off me (about 7lbs)

in fear of losing muscle i raised carbs to 100g...but still lost fat!!!

mind you, i didnt do any high days at all for my own reasons

my point is the magic number can differ for people imo

i have an active job, so i think i could afford more carbs...maybe if my life was sedential, then it would not be the case

having said this, there is a school of thought saying once we start burning ketones for energy, any carbs ingested get used for muscle glycogen...

this blows a hole in my theory, but all the same..100g and i stayed in ketosis?!


----------



## B-GJOE (May 7, 2009)

Agreed, Ketosis is not necessary. I found this out when I got a little anal about ketostix. So long as the BF is reducing who gives a damn if you reach ketosis or not.

I have read UD2, and it looks like a great diet and training regime, but somewhat intense to say the least. Would also be quite difficult to run UD2 and live a normal life around work and family etc.

I was actually going to switch to UD2 for my contest prep if things stopped going to plan, but fortunately things didn't get that drastic so was able to keep CKD right up to week before show.


----------



## Jimmy1 (Aug 14, 2003)

M_at said:


> No - Ketosis is not necessary. But I find it easier to steadily lose weight on keto style diets. I've always been a bit of a fat bastard as the pics in my journal show.
> 
> I want to get to a point where I'm no longer carry the extra tonnage and they shift to a decent lower carb than I used to eat but sensible diet to gain some lean muscle mass.


you missed my point i think...read the above cut n paste...its taken from a keto style diet book


----------



## Jimmy1 (Aug 14, 2003)

B|GJOE said:


> Agreed, Ketosis is not necessary. I found this out when I got a little anal about ketostix. So long as the BF is reducing who gives a damn if you reach ketosis or not.
> 
> I have read UD2, and it looks like a great diet and training regime, but somewhat intense to say the least. Would also be quite difficult to run UD2 and live a normal life around work and family etc.
> 
> I was actually going to switch to UD2 for my contest prep if things stopped going to plan, but fortunately things didn't get that drastic so was able to keep CKD right up to week before show.


i agree...i dont follow it myself...i just find it a great book for reference

myself (these days), i just go atkins style 6 days a week...then eat anything i want on the seventh

6 weeks into my diet and i have lost 24lbs to date

the problem with ud2 is it is clean carbs during the load...i think its cos the load is followed by 2 more days of moderate carbs

in many ways it is in between a keto diet, and a carb cycling diet imo

i cant do this as i want to eat cake and biscuits on my high day...which is why i stick to just 1 day

i also find the training regime complicated

i have no doubt it would work perfectly, but as i no longer compete...the current diet i use works well enough to look good in spedos lol


----------



## B-GJOE (May 7, 2009)

Jimmy said:


> i agree...i dont follow it myself...i just find it a great book for reference
> 
> myself (these days), i just go atkins style 6 days a week...then eat anything i want on the seventh
> 
> ...


I also find the carb load difficult to stay clean on. All through my contest prep I ate lots of simple carbs on the load, for this reason I had to cut my loads to 12-18 hours, as it could've easily turned into a carb frenzy. My intention was always a 24-36 hour clean carb up, but just couldn't do it. Once the dextrose post depletion work out hit my lips, all I wanted was sweet stuff.


----------



## Jimmy1 (Aug 14, 2003)

lol

my load was on sat

sun i felt like [email protected]

today all i want is sweet food..its a killer, but i am strong

kfc is my savior

only...i tried to take cold kfc to work with me, and it just isnt the same...and seems far less greasy!!!

wish i worked near one


----------



## Jimmy1 (Aug 14, 2003)

B|GJOE said:


> My intention was always a 24-36 hour clean carb up,.


i havent read ud2 for a while but i am sure the 36hour carb up is designed to help hold muscle, and keep strength in the gym

i really do agree with this...but again...my head cant cope...a bit like you, i need a little junk food...once the sugar hits, it just gets addictive..almost impossable to curb!!


----------



## maccer (Jul 11, 2007)

Isn't kfc chicken battered?

I have been doing biosignature and my diet approach is similar 6 days protein, fats veg, 1 day I eat what I want!! THe more you do it thhe easier it gets IME.



Jimmy said:


> lol
> 
> my load was on sat
> 
> ...


----------



## Jimmy1 (Aug 14, 2003)

yes its battered

what of it?


----------



## hilly (Jan 19, 2008)

i did keto for 10 weeks. the first 7ish were fine then became really ill. i also got my bloods done and cholesterol was 9.5. average is between 5-5.5.

i changed to carb cycling and 6 weeks later cholesterol was 4.9.

I dont see me doing a keto for that long ever again. i see it being more beneficial as maybe a 4 week jump start or even a 4 week prime for a cycle etc


----------



## Jimmy1 (Aug 14, 2003)

i probably dont eat much more fat on a keto, than i do when eating normally

and my colesterol is always fine


----------



## Robbyg (Feb 25, 2008)

I did my keto diet for 17 weeks and lost 44lbs from 15st11 to 12st 9 and dropped 10%bf.

It was hell but worth it has my cholesterol checked around week 10 and it was fine i think total was 3.2 so low risk as the women said lol as long as your using good fats its a good diet


----------



## B-GJOE (May 7, 2009)

High cholesterol means nothing!! I am quite passionate about this.

It's the particle size of the lipoproteins that may be a problem (May be, not proven).

Cholesterol just happens to be present in areas where the artery has tried to repair itself. Cholesterol is NOT the cause. The internal artery becomes damaged from the phsyiologcal effects emotional stress on the body. This is the killer, not cholesterol.

Cholesterol is the pre-cursor for pregnanolone, which in turn is converted to testeosterone, progesterone, and estrogen.

I suggest you read 'The Great Cholesterol Con'


----------



## maccer (Jul 11, 2007)

Jimmy said:


> yes its battered
> 
> what of it?


I thought battered was full of carbs? IF its not I will be down my local ASAP :thumb:


----------



## Jimmy1 (Aug 14, 2003)

well...firstly im losing fat

secondly carbs are fine as long as not too many are consumed

thirdly, i dont eat all the skin as i dont like it that much

there are always corners to cut

i also use salad cream and ketchup every day

as well as some fruit....

and sunpat...yes sunpat peanut butter

but as said..the weights coming off....no matter what the diet looks like on paper


----------



## maccer (Jul 11, 2007)

Well mate the proof is in the pudding - I actually read many of your posts mate because you seem so in tune with your body - I am still just getting there. Lots of the issues you have dealt with I have had the same issues with sugar. I also have fruit in the diet, lots of berries the odd apple generally PWO for me.

I find the craving subsided for me after 4 weeks, booze is the hardest I still jhave one or two glases a few nights a week and one all out blow out - I have been doing it for 9.10 weeks ish - ent on holiday for a week in the middle, gone from 20% bodyfat to 13% bodyfat (which for me is good) My strength has just started to come back strong and I m only down 3 KGs in actual weight. I am not as advanced lifter as you by any means.


----------



## Jimmy1 (Aug 14, 2003)

as said before 1000 times

bodybuilding is a lifetime

keep it up


----------



## BigBiff (Sep 30, 2008)

been on it 5 months


----------



## ste247 (Mar 18, 2008)

i done the palumbo cut diet for 3 months for my last show and was in the shape of my life, i also will be doing it again for my show in oct


----------



## BigBiff (Sep 30, 2008)

ste247 said:


> i done the palumbo cut diet for 3 months for my last show and was in the shape of my life, i also will be doing it again for my show in oct


im going back to my old ways and not doing the cheat meal on a weekend, will do straight keto for 5 weeks see how i get on again, my body usually drops fat so rapidly after 2 weeks strict.


----------



## Jimmy1 (Aug 14, 2003)

biff

if your condition is like your avvy still, there is no need to be doing a keto diet

it will only string you out

as for no re feeds, you will lose strength and size if you continue to do straight keto

i find it hard to believe your lifts and fullness as it is, when you say you have only had 2-3 carbs ups in the recent past few months

your lucky you look the way you do tbh

bottom line is if you continue to do keto without re feeds you will pay for it somewhere

either muscle loss, strength drop...or massive fatigue....and you wiil deffo flatten out, leaving you looking small and out of shape


----------



## hilly (Jan 19, 2008)

im with jimmy biff any leaner and you will waste some of that muscle


----------



## BigBiff (Sep 30, 2008)

my strength is still high from my gear usage and clenbuterol intake, i believe without clen i would be useless in the gym, and thats my honest opinion on this, i do refeed started doing it every sunday, and my glycogen stores go crazy, last refeed i tried the 36 hour carb up friday till sunday, i went from 13.4 stone to 14.12. Now im back down to 13.7 after a few days of cardio, still trying to fight this water off but early days yet. The refeeds to me dont need to be done every week, i prefer every 2 weeks to see how condition can be pushed.


----------



## Jimmy1 (Aug 14, 2003)

i can honestly say i have never known anyone increasing lifts on strict keto

in most cases, once the diet starts to bite, strength often goes down

this doesnt go for keto diets alone...any serious contest style diet will take its toll on the weights pushed no matter how much drugs are pushed in

ive been training for 15 years, and have competed

ive taken every drug going in this sport, tried every diet, and trained every style/programme going

for you to be lifting 240kg deads after 9 months training at 19 years old is admirable...as i only ever pushed that sort of weight on 4g test a week and 6000kcals a day...i was 18 stone with visable abs...5ft 11"

but for you to go from zero, to lifting that sort of weight in 9 months on a keto with no re feeds is almost inhuman

all i can say, as said before, is keep it up and compete...cos you will go far

but if you keep messing about with keto...you will only suffer


----------



## BigBiff (Sep 30, 2008)

ive taken in what your saying mate, my lifts arnt improving dramatically as they was when i was bulking, i remember my bench going up 10kg every 2 week, right now im only benching 120 and ive been maintaining this throughout doing a keto, as for everything else strength wise, things are just being maintained. i notice after a refeed my glycogen stores are so full i can push a good few more reps out on the bigger weights, deadlifts have been left for 2 weeks as platoud, so going back to face my fears tommorow!

refeed today as its my birthday lol any excuse


----------

