# The BodyBuilding World According To Cookie



## Cookie (Sep 14, 2009)

The Bodybuilding World According To Cookie
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Disclaimer

The following information is all my own views as I see it and how I see it should be done for maximum results with the minimum amount of effort. I am putting this forward as an alternative approach to all the twaddle and conflicting articles you are probably seeing on a monthly basis in the mainstream magazines which more than likely leave you scratching your head at the end of it. The following is for informational purposes and is not intended to heal or cure and before embarking on any type of physical training a visit to your physician for a medical check up is a good idea.



All the best Cookie
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In the beginning god created man in his own image a picture of health and beauty then man created Dianabol and all that went out of the window he became bloated and ugly a bit like those old gargoyles you see on old cathedrals but now there on stage and we pay to see them kill themselves but enough about the drug side of things I am not here to preach or tell you what to take just to pass on a few titbits that hopefully I`ll help you on your way to getting the physique of your choice with or without drugs.

I like you am just a regular guy that has a passion for this sport we call bodybuilding. I live it and breath it, no matter how many times I try to get away from it for what ever reason it always pulls me back so might has well just go with the flow and see were it takes me.

This little book/leaflet of words is also going to be a little like that no fancy chapters or headings just going with the flow as the thoughts enter my head and reach my fingers this will also make sure that you have to read it all the way through word for word just to find out it entire contents and stop you from just flicking through to the juicy bits like we have all done in the past including me.

So were do we start? Hmmm that's a tricky one, how about diet? Why not? That's always a good one. How many of you reading this are banging your head against a wall trying to find that ultimate combination of fats/carbs and protein? Well there isn't one, the body just doesnt work like that that would be just too easy. Nature's not that stupid to let us get away with it that easy. How do we really find what we really need to eat? You listen to your body that is it. It is so simple. No fancy equations no food charts and graphs no guru writing out complicated diet sheets and charging you the earth for doing so, chances are he writes the same one down for more than just you but tells you its your personalised diet just for your needs. We all know we need protein to build muscle that's the main ingredient but, how much? More than often than not a lot less than you actually think, we don't need to bombard our systems with tons of protein day after day it just cant take it. The body will start to rebel and your gains will start to slow down and we don't want that do we? No! Protein comes from the Greek word Proteus meaning first or most important so it should be just that not just the whole shabang. If we eat too much it has a good chance of turning to fat or urea and excreted out through the kidneys, which can then cause problems internally. We don't want either of those do we? So how do we get around that situation? Simple we cycle our protein intake like people do their drug usage, for the most part throughout the day we ingest 30 grams per meal and then at that magical time just after training when the window of opportunity opens up and the body is crying out for protein to help repair the damage we have just inflicted upon it we feed it all it can take and if that means banging down a 100 grams of the stuff we do it because that is what the body wants not what we are telling it to do, get my drift? But you say "30 grams is not enough at a meal, I`ll shrink, I can digest more than that". No you cant believe me all that was brought about by the supplement companies in the late 80s and early 90s to get you to buy more of their products and put more money in their pockets, if you don't believe me just check out the articles from the 60's, 70's and early 80's to see for yourself that they always said 30 grams per meal and no more and then just look to when it changed and you will see that I am right and it was when we had the big introduction of a lot of new products and the meal replacement fad, bet your feeling a bit ****ed off now right now thinking of all the money you have just wasted on food and protein powders. Well not anymore. Now you know different don't you. So where do you go from here? Well for a start your going to have a lot more money in your pocket so that's a good thing and a positive thing and positive is good for your hormones so two birds killed with one stone there.

So what now? You look at your present meal structure and remove the excess protein from all your meals prior to training and save some of it for after training when it is truly needed. The next question then is do I take my after training protein as a shake or as a solid food? Me personally I would say food as a when it is possible but if not then it has to be a shake there is no other way around this food is paramount at this critical time, but what type of protein shake do I use there are so many out there and they all say that they are the best? Why wouldn't they? They want your hard earned money! Do I go with a whey shake? A whey and carb shake? What? Well whey lets face it is just the left over liquid from the manufacture of cottage cheese which has been dried through many different process and has had who knows what done to it and stuck in a tub with artificial sweeteners and a fancy label stuck on it with lots of scientific writing to make it sound good. So as you can see me personally doesn't think that whey is a good idea and on top off all that it is digested way too quickly. The body just doesn't have to do anything with it so it goes in one end and 10-30 mins later its out again all done and dusted, has the body really got all it needs from it in such a small space of time? Me thinks not. So what do we use then? Well I prefer to use a milk or calcium caseinate with egg protein which is slowly digested and absorbed for proper assimilation by the body and the muscles needing it plus the body has been allowed to do its natural job of digesting and processing all the food it takes in not just having it dumped on it. Now by this point some of you will be moaning to yourself that "I cant drink milk it gives me gas stomach ache and even the ****s", well there are a couple of reasons behind this and, some ways around it. First, most people drink their shakes too fast. They just chug them down then rush off to the showers or home, wrong, wrong, wrong! Sip it slowly sat down and allow the body to get all the correct juices flowing as it slowly filters through to the stomach were it will be digested, secondly don't blend it in the blender this creates air pockets which get into you stomach and also it breaks down the fat molecules in the milk which make it difficult to digest, this is the process that happens in the manufacture of bottled milk and why so many people cannot drink milk nowadays, for those that have access to it use raw milk, green top to those in the UK, this has not been tampered with in anyway and is as nature intended it to be a healthy drink. What do we do if we don't have access to raw milk? Well first off sip, secondly try adding some of the good bacterial drinks that are out nowadays to the drink to help increase intestinal flora and thirdly my favourite mix the protein powder with organic natural yoghurt into a pudding mixture and eat it. This way it is slowly entering the digestive process.

What about adding some carbs to the drink to help replace the lost energy from the workout? Forget it. The body needs protein at this point! In time the carbs can come&#8230;&#8230;&#8230; 30-60 minutes later when the body has had ample time to get the protein broken down and the amino acids to where they are needed most. The repair of damaged tissue first and foremost. Next you're asking well do I mix the drink with full fat or skimmed milk? Simple answer. Full fat, the body needs fat to help digest protein. They go hand in hand. Why do you think that there's so much in an egg yolk? Because it is needed for full absorption of the protein and the stimulation of hormonal process that go hand in hand with growth, also the fat encapsulates the protein and slows digestion down so as to help the body get the maximum out of it as possible.

So protein foods what are we looking for? Simple meats eggs fish and fowl. Nothing could be simpler. Eat you eggs whole don't waste the yolks. That is just so stupid. As stated above they are needed and to top it all of the yolk is packed full of vitamins and minerals and lecithin which is used in the metabolism of fats! If at all possible save your protein drink for just after training and stick to solid foods the rest of the time. If not, just follow the above simple rules, don't blend, sip and add some fat to the drink. What about vegetarian foods? I can't really say much on that subject, as I've not had much experience myself in that field. All I do know is that vegetable proteins are an inferior source of protein and what with all the genetically modified things flying about in that field I would prefer to avoid like the plague, some do manage to do it but it is just not for me, and maybe a subject better written about after more personnel study, but by all means try if you feel the need to, that is how we learn.

We can also use milk and plenty of it, but milk gives me gut ache you whine, yes it may but that's because the enzyme lactase has been removed during its processing and lactase is natures way of helping us digest lactose the milk sugar, so how do we get round this, well you can by from the health food shops lactase but, this can be expensive so I just add a little whipping cream to the mix to help slow the whole digestive thing down to help the body get the most from all that has been taken in at that meal. Another thing about lactose is that even though it is a sugar, it is a slow burning sugar. Which is ideal for us bodybuilders so another reason why we shouldn't avoid it like the plague as a lot do.


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## Cookie (Sep 14, 2009)

PART 2
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So what now? You look at your present meal structure and remove the excess protein from all your meals prior to training and save some of it for after training when it is truly needed. The next question then is do I take my after training protein as a shake or as a solid food? Me personally I would say food as a when it is possible but if not then it has to be a shake there is no other way around this food is paramount at this critical time, but what type of protein shake do I use there are so many out there and they all say that they are the best? Why wouldn't they? They want your hard earned money! Do I go with a whey shake? A whey and carb shake? What? Well whey lets face it is just the left over liquid from the manufacture of cottage cheese which has been dried through many different process and has had who knows what done to it and stuck in a tub with artificial sweeteners and a fancy label stuck on it with lots of scientific writing to make it sound good. So as you can see me personally doesn't think that whey is a good idea and on top off all that it is digested way too quickly. The body just doesn't have to do anything with it so it goes in one end and 10-30 mins later its out again all done and dusted, has the body really got all it needs from it in such a small space of time? Me thinks not. So what do we use then? Well I prefer to use a milk or calcium caseinate with egg protein which is slowly digested and absorbed for proper assimilation by the body and the muscles needing it plus the body has been allowed to do its natural job of digesting and processing all the food it takes in not just having it dumped on it. Now by this point some of you will be moaning to yourself that "I cant drink milk it gives me gas stomach ache and even the ****s", well there are a couple of reasons behind this and, some ways around it. First, most people drink their shakes too fast. They just chug them down then rush off to the showers or home, wrong, wrong, wrong! Sip it slowly sat down and allow the body to get all the correct juices flowing as it slowly filters through to the stomach were it will be digested, secondly don't blend it in the blender this creates air pockets which get into you stomach and also it breaks down the fat molecules in the milk which make it difficult to digest, this is the process that happens in the manufacture of bottled milk and why so many people cannot drink milk nowadays, for those that have access to it use raw milk, green top to those in the UK, this has not been tampered with in anyway and is as nature intended it to be a healthy drink. What do we do if we don't have access to raw milk? Well first off sip, secondly try adding some of the good bacterial drinks that are out nowadays to the drink to help increase intestinal flora and thirdly my favourite mix the protein powder with organic natural yoghurt into a pudding mixture and eat it. This way it is slowly entering the digestive process.

What about adding some carbs to the drink to help replace the lost energy from the workout? Forget it. The body needs protein at this point! In time the carbs can come&#8230;&#8230;&#8230; 30-60 minutes later when the body has had ample time to get the protein broken down and the amino acids to where they are needed most. The repair of damaged tissue first and foremost. Next you're asking well do I mix the drink with full fat or skimmed milk? Simple answer. Full fat, the body needs fat to help digest protein. They go hand in hand. Why do you think that there's so much in an egg yolk? Because it is needed for full absorption of the protein and the stimulation of hormonal process that go hand in hand with growth, also the fat encapsulates the protein and slows digestion down so as to help the body get the maximum out of it as possible.

So protein foods what are we looking for? Simple meats eggs fish and fowl. Nothing could be simpler. Eat you eggs whole don't waste the yolks. That is just so stupid. As stated above they are needed and to top it all of the yolk is packed full of vitamins and minerals and lecithin which is used in the metabolism of fats! If at all possible save your protein drink for just after training and stick to solid foods the rest of the time. If not, just follow the above simple rules, don't blend, sip and add some fat to the drink. What about vegetarian foods? I can't really say much on that subject, as I've not had much experience myself in that field. All I do know is that vegetable proteins are an inferior source of protein and what with all the genetically modified things flying about in that field I would prefer to avoid like the plague, some do manage to do it but it is just not for me, and maybe a subject better written about after more personnel study, but by all means try if you feel the need to, that is how we learn.

We can also use milk and plenty of it, but milk gives me gut ache you whine, yes it may but that's because the enzyme lactase has been removed during its processing and lactase is natures way of helping us digest lactose the milk sugar, so how do we get round this, well you can by from the health food shops lactase but, this can be expensive so I just add a little whipping cream to the mix to help slow the whole digestive thing down to help the body get the most from all that has been taken in at that meal. Another thing about lactose is that even though it is a sugar, it is a slow burning sugar. Which is ideal for us bodybuilders so another reason why we shouldn't avoid it like the plague as a lot do.


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## Cookie (Sep 14, 2009)

PART 3
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Lets take a lot of the protein drinks out there they all remove the lactose to help with your digestive problems yet they then fill them with all sorts of different sugars, maltodextrin, fructose, sucrose etc and all these help to do is sweeten it for your taste buds and help to ferment the food in your gut which then gets you back to the gut ache thing and what do you then do you blame it on the milk or avoid them all together and hinder your bodybuilding potential which is not good. At this point you could always go back to the old standby of milk and raw eggs as a drink, yes I did say raw eggs but lets get it straight you don't need to bang back dozens at a time just one or two a couple of times a day is plenty, this way you are reducing the risk of food poisoning and egg binding, you can also nuke 'em in the microwave for 20 seconds to kill off any bad guys in there before you add them to the drink and as always sip the drink over a good 15 minutes. Don't just bang it back. Learn to relax and enjoy your food.

Another thing also is to not over cook your food, don't burn it or blacken it as this alters the protein structure and makes it very difficult for the body to digest and may help it go off in your stomach.

Carbohydrates. Personally I think it is better to only get them from natural sources of foods, vegetables and fruits being the main stay as there also full of fibre and essential vitamins and minerals. You can also get them from seeds and nuts; as for things like breads and pastas use in moderation and really only straight after your workout to help with the recovery process. I feel as bodybuilders we put too much faith into our carbohydrate consumption, and this is one of the reasons I think that we end up out of shape.

What you have to remember protein can and does get changed into energy. Carbohydrates cannot be changed into protein. As for an energy source, there is nothing wrong with them and the body does need them but, they are only a short lived energy source usually 2-4 hours. Next time you have a large carbohydrate meal just se how long it is before you are hungry again, you will be surprised how short a time it is. I would definitely try to avoid all forms of carbohydrate in liquid for, whether you take them in shakes or pre workout drinks, all the fibre has been removed so it will hit your system way too fast for the body to be able to deal with it properly; so creating a large insulin release and therefore increasing you chances of storing the sugars as fats.

For the average bodybuilder I would say that no more than 200 grams a day be consumed in the form of carbohydrates, and that is for the larger guys out there, those in the 250lb+ region. Anything less and I would reduce the intake accordingly.

When dieting for a show then that is a totally different ball game, you want to be looking at reducing your consumption to 50 grams a day or less if you can manage it. If you are ingesting carbohydrates at this stage your body is going to want to use them instead of stored fat, don't get me wrong there is probably going to be a need to use them the last day or so to help with filling out and water dispersion.

What we have to look at when looking at carbohydrates and our genetic make up is that for centuries and millennia man used fats and proteins as his major food sources. Carbohydrates were mostly used during the spring summer months in many parts of the world, and most of the human beings on the planet would have used the more root based carbohydrates, as opposed to the man made variety, pasta and flour based products. This is what our appendix where used for; to help digest the very rough vegetation and break it down just like a cow uses a second stomach. Ever wondered why so many people get appendicitis? Because their appendix is rotting due to lack of use, it's that simple (in my eyes anyway).

I'm not saying avoid all forms of carbohydrates, just be sensible with which ones you use; and which type you use, as its your bodybuilding future at stake here.

The body is very adaptive and will quite easily use fats as its energy source over carbohydrates but, only if the carbohydrates are not there, and for some that's the hardest part, years of using carbohydrates and being told to do so by everybody. They will suffer the most when they try to turn on their internal natural bodily instincts to use fats, the body will just rebel; but given enough time it will get there.


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## Cookie (Sep 14, 2009)

PART 4
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Plus another good thing to come out of all this is that if you are using only natural wholesome vegetables and fruits as your carbohydrate source, then your also getting the best internal cleanse money can buy. Because without this internal cleansing you are never going to reach your full genetic potential.

We as bodybuilders what with the huge amounts of food we have consumed over the years, are going to, internally, carry a lot of waste products which will be doing us no end of harm. All that matter just rotting away day after day after day, just doesn't bear thinking about does it?

But if you eat your veggies like mother always said you ain't going to have that problem are you? Ever noticed when you eat a large pasta meal a couple hrs later your thirsty? Well that's another drawback to over consumption of carbohydrates, the dehydrating effect they have through needing 4 times their weight in water to get through the system effectively. This is one of the reasons why people on the Atkins diet loose so much weight at the beginning its just excess water they are carrying. This is happening more than likely through over use of carbohydrates in some form or another.

Lets just go off on a tangent for a little while, The idea that as bodybuilders that we can only digest 30 grams of protein at any one time has been around for quite some time and in the 90`s was turned on its head really by a Mr Paul Borresson and his findings that there were lots and lots of woolly mammoth bones at the bottom of cliffs. These beasts had been driven there by cavemen, to their deaths, so that they could be eaten, and eaten in huge quantities. So there you have it we can digest more than 30 grams per meal. Wrong, yes you read that right, wrong. We can eat more than 30 grams of protein but at only certain times. What Paul seemed to not mention was that the cavemen had been running around in a heightened state pumped full of hormones, which I may add had been released naturally in the fight or flight scenario. What also needs to be taken into account is he was more than likely refering to the steroid taking bodybuilder and they more than likely can. What I am trying to do with putting the 30 grams idea forward is to keep digestion to the maximum and limit the amount that could be converted to fat when larger amounts are ingetsted.

You will now probably asking what the bloody hell does this have to do with digesting protein, and thinking that I am barking mad. The state the cavemen were in is much the same state we as athletes are in after a serious training session, a total catabolic state from the stresses we have just inflicted upon our selves. The cavemen on the other hand came to this state through fear and sheer hard graft, they may also have been hunting for quite a few hours and were starving.

Now lets take a look at the old time bodybuilders, the one thing most had in common with each other was they trained a lot, sometimes multiple times a day. Why did they do this and how does that tie in with cavemen?

They reached, like cavemen, a catabolic state, they like cavemen gorged on protein after the workout/kill. But you said they couldn't digest that amount of food. True but, they like the cavemen were only doing so after strenuous activities, and the rest of the time eating as required. So your old timer would for the most part eat 30 grams per meal during the day but, after a workout would probably shoot for upwards of 100 grams. His body like nature had intended, was primed for it at this time, as it needed it, then he would go about his day; returning later to train again and then gorge once more.

You see what you have to look at is protein is numero uno in the food chain, but as a species really we were not meant to sit down at a table and eat a meal. We were meant to go out and kill and gorge, then sleep and try again next day, some days we ate some we didn't. Now in today's world we have to create that ultimate anabolic environment by training. That way you can then get the most out of what you eat the rest of the time it is not really needed but to only hold onto what you already have, just to help you tick over until the next ultimate anabolic environment is created through training and hormonal manipulation.

The sad fact is that through the eons of time this instinct has been lost mostly due to the dark days that followed the introduction of steroids. All these chemicals did was mask your natural built in innate animal wisdom, and just did the work for you by passing all that was natural and normal.


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## Cookie (Sep 14, 2009)

PART 5
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Now I know your going to be thinking here we go another steroid basher that's it finished reading this ****e, well hang on for a minute let me fill in a couple of details. I have used and used many times, if people want to use then that is their given right to do so, all I am trying to point out is that it can still be done naturally if you learn how to read the signs,. If you are a gear user then it can still help you and maybe even push you further than you thought possible.

The bodybuilders of the 70`s, the golden era as it is sometimes called; really were really at the good and bad ends of the sport in that they started to push the drug side of things, but also they still had that instinct thing still hanging around from the really old timers. Which gave then a greater understanding of a lot more than we today realise. For a start a lot trained twice a day, they would after each workout go out to a steak house and eat for man and beast, then later in the day repeat this, some even training three times a day to get even more out of it. They instinctively knew this through the way they were trained by the older generation, but they had the added advantage of their newfound chemical friends. This then boosted the whole thing even further, hence you can now understand why there was such and explosion in the standard of the competitors, it was not just down to the drugs but the protein cycling that they also employed in creating not only a natural but chemical ultimate anabolic environment.

As time went on we know the rest of the story the drugs became the main priority and food and instinct sadly followed further and further respectfully behind.

I must at this stage point out that I do not condone the use of performance enhancing drugs and will not in this book be discussing cycles etc, that is a subject best left alone and for others more informed to do. What I hope to do in this book is give both the drug user and natural athletes a way of using food and training to help them reach their potentials.

You see looking back the old time bodybuilders were probably at times eating more protein than todays monsters, yet they had smaller waists, stomachs and were probably a hell of a lot healthier for they also took a smaller amount of drugs overall.

Another thing that they did was protein cycling in that they also had times when they went with very low protein intakes or even going with out it for a day or two, just as our caveman did went he couldn`t find food, to help rest the body and create a second ultimate anabolic environment through a fast/starvation call it what you want mode. It has been said time and time again that we have to stay in a positive nitrogen balance, yes? But, by who? More often than not the blokes that are pushing the products. Your hard earned muscle isn`t going to disappear over night if you miss a meal or reduce your protein intake, as the manufacturers would have you believe. All your really doing is creating extra work for your kidneys sorting out all the excess urea that is being produced and for them to find ways of getting it out of the body before it does any harm. If your using gear then maybe you can get away with a little extra but not the amounts that you are thinking.

The Bulgarians used to use and probably still do , use a lot of protein cycling in their Olympic weightlifting teams. What they do is when shooting for some maximum lifts and during a bulking stage before a big lifting meet is every week have a complete day without protein; eating only fruit. Crazy you may be thinking, but no there is method in this madness. They observed years ago that their farmers through the centuries every so often did not feed their livestock, but the livestock was still extremely healthy and well muscled (lots of meat one them). Intreged by this the coaches looked more into it and found that after the day without the protein their athletes bodies were ravenous for it and turned over more protein when it was reintroduced. They recovered quicker and grew faster from it, leading to stronger lifters in competition.

So how do you put all this together? Well as your going all out for added mass you are deliberately pushing yourself into a catabolic state through excess training. You are consuming a lot of calories during this stage to help hold onto your already gained mass. You are looking to be training twice per day at least, more if possible. After each workout you are consuming a lot of calories from protein and throughout the rest of the day reducing this slightly. Then at about 7 days in you turn it all on its head, you go an entire day without any protein what so ever, shock horror. On this day the only thing you are allowed to eat is fruit and nothing else, this will help keep your energy levels up but also cleanse your insides out, this you will obviously notice yourself. The following day you drop everything else carbohydrates etc, you have a hard strenuous workout first thing and then the gorging begins and a gorge it must be, we are not looking at a couple of chicken breasts and a couple of steaks here; no, we


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## Cookie (Sep 14, 2009)

PART 6
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are shooting for a few pounds of each and more if you can manage it. The next day you will notice that you are not only bigger but fuller, and all this over a period of only 10 days ( that's how long the cycle lasts if I did not mention it before ). You want to wait a couple of weeks at least before doing the cycle again as to let the body get used to its new found mass and to not over stimulate it.

Thats it for now but you never know there maybe more,just depends on how nice you all are to me with those reputation points

Ta for now.

Cookie


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## Lorian (Apr 9, 2003)

Excellent and extremely informative - thank you!

Reputation given where it's deserved! .. your total just notched up another 10 



L


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## Killerkeane (Nov 9, 2003)

yep, couldnt have said it better myself lol, good post ill give you some feedback on that one, must have taken a while to write that, nice one!


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## Cookie (Sep 14, 2009)

Thanks guys.

It took about 8 weeks to put together killerkeane and it still isn`t finished got more of the diet side of things to do not counting contest dieting,supps,training/exercises/rep/set sytems and hopefully a full 12months program from start to finish.


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

Very impressive. 

I think you could have made it a bit longer though............lol. Loved it.

I would comment but it would just be a repeat


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## Cookie (Sep 14, 2009)

winger said:


> Very impressive.
> 
> I think you could have made it a bit longer though............lol. Loved it.
> 
> I would comment but it would just be a repeat


Aaaaaaaaawwwwwwwwwhhhhhhhhhhhhhh go on winger comment I`ve just done round one over on Muscle Talk after posting it there:mad: so i`m ready for round two


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Interesting reading about some older training thoughts for a newbie like myself; thanks for taking the time to post.

If you want a discussion one question did spring to mind when I read it, but it's probably dumb... If I read it right, on non-training days you're advocating 30g of protein a meal, which for say 6 meals is 180g. Then you reccommend 200g of carbs a day, which with the protein gives ~1500kcal per day. Isn't that going to mean consuming rather a lot of fat to take this figure up to the sort of daily totals I'm used to seeing, or am I missing something (very likely)? Or is it simply a question of training everyday and so getting much more energy from the large protein meal PWO?

Martin


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## Cookie (Sep 14, 2009)

Ultrasonic said:


> Interesting reading about some older training thoughts for a newbie like myself; thanks for taking the time to post.
> 
> If you want a discussion one question did spring to mind when I read it, but it's probably dumb... If I read it right, on non-training days you're advocating 30g of protein a meal, which for say 6 meals is 180g. Then you reccommend 200g of carbs a day, which with the protein gives ~1500kcal per day. Isn't that going to mean consuming rather a lot of fat to take this figure up to the sort of daily totals I'm used to seeing, or am I missing something (very likely)? Or is it simply a question of training everyday and so getting much more energy from the large protein meal PWO?
> 
> Martin


Very good question but as your aware most experts bang on about 3000-5000 cals aday to either grow or maintain but to me thats way too many cals as how many times do you see a ripped bber eating lets say 4000 cals aday and not doing drugs?most guys nowadays just have too much blubber on them,so what I am suggesting is to get an eating plan that still allows you to grow but not grow fat,remember "it`s not what you eat it`s what you absorb"

As for me I try to train atleast 5 days a week if I can 6 days so the cals are up there with the extra p/w protein.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Thanks for that OSC. I'm assuming you're saving your thoughts on total calorie requirements for a future installment of your treatise right?


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

Hey OSC, here is a ratio that I did a few years back and got ripped. I too agree that more is not always better. I read about these guys eating two chicken breasts, rice and a 50g protein shake to get to that 1 1/2 grams to every pound of bodyweight. I think too much food makes you tired (insulin spike) and why would I want that.

Here is the ratio for breakfast, lunch and dinner

45 grams of carbs

35 grams of protein

7 or 8 grams of fat

Then I have the two snacks in between

18 grams of carbs

14 grams of protein

3 grams of fat.

Felt great and kept my strength. At that time I think my lean muscle mass was around 165 about.


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## megatron (Apr 21, 2004)

great post - i learned alot. thanks


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## Cookie (Sep 14, 2009)

Ultrasonic said:


> Thanks for that OSC. I'm assuming you're saving your thoughts on total calorie requirements for a future installment of your treatise right?


I dont really count calories even for myself as some days I might only eat say 1800 one day then maybe 3-4000 on a binge day it all depends on how much walking I have done at work.Me personnelly I have always found that I get more hubngry round about teatime so if that happens I just have a biggish meal.

i came across the different calorie ratios whilst once using a iet which had you carb cycling and i found it quite benficial as I feel there is no point in throwing the same amount of cals back each day when some days you just dont do enough to make the amounts used viable.

Megatrton thanks for the kinds words.

Not bad that winger,have you ever used the isocalorie diet of a ratio of each portions of all the groups 33/33/33% of fat prtoein carbs.


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

ONE SMART COOKI said:


> Not bad that winger,have you ever used the isocalorie diet of a ratio of each portions of all the groups 33/33/33% of fat prtoein carbs.


Actually yes I have. This is the Zone diet. I loved it. If you want to step it up to the next level then the carbs you choose need to be low glycimic spiking carbs and you will really get ripped.


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## Killerkeane (Nov 9, 2003)

so you are saying cookie, that the metabolism changes that quickly if the body goes a day without protein, which is why you grow faster when you reinttoduce it? This is not a critism, just a question.

Reading it again, it is a really excellent article, very informative, brilliant read 

i always thought the 30g protein rule per meal was bulls1te. In bulking stages, an excessive amount of protein ingested is a good thing because it will turn to fat, which is weight and bulk, what many people strive for. I am going to eat PWO shake, 3 raw eggs with orange juice and tin of tuna all 30-45 mins after exercise. This should convert nicely


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

Killer you should always cook eggs. Even a little bit. Although it's uncommon, you could suffer bacterial contamination. You need to be careful with raw foods because they could contain food-borne pathogens. In fact, cooked eggs are better digested and utilized than raw. There is some enzime that you cant digest unless you cook it. Our little Jack Russel Terrior.....lol 

You will be a Pit Bull in no time


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## Cookie (Sep 14, 2009)

Right guys I`ll answer the other q`s later just off out to meet mr taxman:eek:

Heres a more indepth article

Raw Eggs for Your Health -- Major Update

By J. Mercola, D.O.

As many of you know, I am a fond proponent of using raw eggs as a major food in your diet.

Raw whole eggs are a phenomenally inexpensive and incredible source of high-quality nutrients that many of us are deficient in, especially high-quality protein and fat.

Eggs generally are one of the most allergic foods that are eaten, but I believe this is because they are cooked. If one consumes the eggs in their raw state the incidence of egg allergy virtually disappears. Heating the egg protein actually changes its chemical shape, and the distortion can easily lead to allergies.

So, if you have not been able to tolerate eggs before you will want to consider eating them uncooked.

But when one discusses raw eggs, the typical reaction is a fear of salmonella. So let me begin this update, my first that comprehensively addresses the immediate concern of nearly everyone who hears this recommendation.

"Well What About Salmonella? Won't I Get Sick If I Eat Raw Eggs?"

Salmonella is a serious infection, and it is believed that in the US over two-thirds of a million cases of human illnesses a year result from eating contaminated eggs. If you want more information on salmonella the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention has an excellent page on this disease.

So why on earth would any competent health care professional ever recommend eating uncooked eggs?

When you carefully analyze the risk of contracting salmonella from raw eggs, you will find that it is actually quite low. A study by the U.S. Department of Agriculture earlier this year (Risk Analysis April 2002 22(2):203-18) showed that of the 69 billion eggs produced annually, only 2.3 million of them are contaminated with salmonella.

So simple math suggests that only 0.00003 percent of eggs are infected. The translation is that only one in every 30,000 eggs is contaminated with salmonella. This gives you an idea of how uncommon this problem actually is.

While it is likely that I will consume more than 30,000 eggs in my lifetime, most of you will not. However, inevitably someone out there will find a salmonella-contaminated egg, so it is important to understand how to seriously decrease your risk of infection.

Salmonella infections are usually present only in traditionally raised commercial hens. If you are purchasing your eggs from healthy chickens this infection risk reduces dramatically. Remember, only sick chickens lay salmonella-contaminated eggs. If you are obtaining high quality, cage-free, organically fed, omega-3 enhanced chicken eggs as recommended above, the risk virtually disappears.

But let's say that for some reason, even after following that advice, you still obtain an egg that is infected. What do you do? Well, before you eat eggs - raw or not -- you should thoroughly examine them for signs of infection. I have provided some guidelines at the bottom of this section for you to use in this process.

You might still be a bit nervous and say, "What if I follow these guidelines and still get an infection?"

Salmonella Is Generally a Benign Self-Limiting Illness In Healthy People

The major principle to recognize here is that if you are healthy a salmonella infection is not a big deal. You may feel sick and have loose stools, but this infection is easily treated by using high-quality probiotics that have plenty of good bacteria. You can take a dose every 30 minutes until you start to feel better, and most people improve within a few hours.

Revised Recommendations For Raw Egg Whites

Earlier this summer, I posted an article that suggested that one should not eat raw egg whites. This is the traditional nutritional dogma as raw egg whites contain a glycoprotein called avidin that is very effective at binding biotin, one of the B vitamins. The concern is that this can lead to a biotin deficiency. The simple solution is to cook the egg whites as this completely deactivates the avidin.

The problem is that it also completely deactivates nearly every other protein in the egg white. While you will still obtain nutritional benefits from consuming cooked egg whites, from a nutritional perspective it would seem far better to consume them uncooked.

Since making the recommendation in July, I have more carefully studied this issue. Two groups brought me to back this: pet owners who feed their pets raw foods and Aajonus Vonderplanitz, who wrote the raw food book We Want to Live. Both feel quite strongly that raw eggs are just fine to eat.

After my recent studies it became clear that the egg's design carefully compensated for this issue.

It put tons of biotin in the egg yolk. Egg yolks have one of the highest concentrations of biotin found in nature. So it is likely that you will not have a biotin deficiency if you consume the whole raw egg, yolk and white. It is also clear, however, that if you only consume raw egg whites, you are nearly guaranteed to develop a biotin deficiency unless you take a biotin supplement.

The following tables list the amounts of biotin in some common foods, as well as recommended daily amounts:

Food Serving Biotin (mcg)

Liver, cooked 3 ounces* 27

Egg, cooked 1 large 25

Yeast, bakers active 1 packet (7 grams) 14

Wheat bran, crude 1 ounce 14

Bread, whole wheat 1 slice 6

Cheese, camembert 1 ounce 6

Avocado 1 whole 6

Salmon, cooked 3 ounces* 4

Cauliflower, raw 1 cup 4

Chicken, cooked 3 ounces* 3

Cheese, cheddar 1 ounce 2

Pork, cooked 3 ounces* 2

Raspberries 1 cup 2

Artichoke, cooked 1 medium 2

Adequate Intake (AI) for Biotin

Life Stage Age Males (mcg/day) Females (mcg/day)

Infants 0-6 months 5 5

Infants 7-12 months 6 6

Children 1-3 years 8 8

Children 4-8 years 12 12

Children 9-13 years 20 20

Adolescents 14-18 years 25 25

Adults 19 years and older 30 30

Pregnancy all ages - 30

Breastfeeding all ages - 35

There is a potential problem with using the entire raw egg if you are pregnant. Biotin deficiency is a common concern in pregnancy and it is possible that consuming whole raw eggs would make it worse.

If you are pregnant you have two options. The first is to actually measure for a biotin deficiency. This is best done through urinary excretion of 3-hydroxyisovaleric acid (3-HIA), which increases as a result of the decreased activity of the biotin-dependent enzyme methylcrotonyl-CoA carboxylase.

It might take you some time to get used to using raw eggs. I personally have shifted to consuming them "Rocky style" one egg with the yolk intact and swallowing them whole. Usually two eggs at one sitting.

Alternatively, you could have your raw eggs in a protein shake or Living Fuel Rx or take a biotin supplement.

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Guidelines To Ensure That You Are Consuming Fresh High- Quality Eggs

1 Always check the freshness of the egg right before you consume the yolk.

2 If you are uncertain about the freshness of an egg, don't eat it. This is one of the best safeguards against salmonella infection.

3 If there is a crack in the shell, don't eat it. You can easily check for this by immersing the egg in a pan of cool, salted water. If the egg emits a tiny stream of bubbles, don't consume it as the shell is porous/contains a hole.

4 If you are getting your eggs fresh from a farmer it is best to not refrigerate them. This is the way most of the world stores their eggs; they do not refrigerate them. To properly judge the freshness of an egg, its contents need to be at room temperature. Eggs that are stored in the fridge and opened immediately after taking them out will seem fresher than they actually are. Eggs that you want to check the freshness of should be kept outside the fridge for at least an hour prior to opening them.

5 First, check all the eggs by rolling them across a flat surface. Only consume them if they roll wobbly.

6 Open the egg. If the egg white is watery instead of gel-like, don't consume the egg. If the egg yolk is not convex and firm, don't consume the egg. If the egg yolk easily bursts, don't consume the egg.

7 After opening the egg you can put it up to your nose and smell it. If it smells foul you will certainly not want to consume it.

How to Start Using Raw Eggs

If you are not used to eating fresh raw egg yolks or fresh raw fish, you should start by eating just a tiny bit of it on a daily basis, and then gradually increase the portions.

For example, start by consuming only a few drops of raw egg yolk a day for the first three days. Gradually increase the amount that you consume in three-day increments. Try half a teaspoon for three days, then one teaspoon, then two teaspoons. When you are accustomed to that amount, increase it to one raw egg yolk per day and subsequently to two raw egg yolks per day. Eventually, you can easily eat five raw egg yolks daily.

Fresh raw egg yolk tastes like vanilla and is best combined with your vegetable pulp. You can also combine it with avocado. Only stir it gently with a fork, because egg protein easily gets damaged on a molecular level, even by mixing/blending.


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## Killerkeane (Nov 9, 2003)

Fresh raw egg yolk tastes like vanilla and is best combined with your vegetable pulp. You can also combine it with avocado. Only stir it gently with a fork, because egg protein easily gets damaged on a molecular level, even by mixing/blending.


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## Cookie (Sep 14, 2009)

> so you are saying cookie, that the metabolism changes that quickly if the body goes a day without protein, which is why you grow faster when you reinttoduce it? This is not a critism, just a question.


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

Most of the info is in a book but I will do some looking to see if I can get some more info.


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## Killerkeane (Nov 9, 2003)

And with the pwo drink drop the juice and use milk or natural yoghurt with the eggs and then have the tuna with some olive oil and lemon juice with some black pepper.

that sounds quite nice actually, cookie you God!


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## Cookie (Sep 14, 2009)

Killerkeane said:


> And with the pwo drink drop the juice and use milk or natural yoghurt with the eggs and then have the tuna with some olive oil and lemon juice with some black pepper.
> 
> that sounds quite nice actually, cookie you God!


Well thank you,more like a guru at the moment though:cool:

Winger cheers bud.


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

Thanks and sorry for not getting back about the zone. I will look for it in about 7 or 8 hours and get back.


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

ONE SMART COOKI said:


> Not bad that winger,have you ever used the isocalorie diet of a ratio of each portions of all the groups 33/33/33% of fat prtoein carbs.


That is in calories and not grams..........lol

Key #1 Follow The Zone Diet

The centerpiece of the ZonePerfect Nutrition Program is the Zone Diet itself.

The principle premise of the Zone Diet is a simple one: Your genes have changed very little during the past 100,000 years.

Your body is a biochemical machine. Like any machine, it needs the right fuel to operate properly. Over hundreds of thousands of years, Mother Nature has designed your digestive system to operate correctly when eating just two food groups: (1) lean protein and (2) natural carbohydrates like fruits and fiber-rich vegetables.

What about grains? Well, 8,000 years ago, there were no grains, bread or pasta. Agriculture is a very recent (by evolutionary standards) invention.

Evolution works very slowly. As far as our genes are concerned, we're still a bunch of hunter/gatherers foraging for food. The problem, of course, is that our genes may be programmed that way, but that's not the way we actually live. We regularly eat large quantities of dense, highly processed carbohydrates such as grains and grain based products such as pasta. Because we haven't evolved to a stage where we can eat excessive amounts of these high density carbohydrates without adverse biochemical consequences, our bodies aren't able to operate properly. We gain excess weight, suffer from diabetes, heart disease and a host of other ills, feel sluggish, and generally perform at a sub-par level. The Zone Diet is designed to feed our actual genetic makeup - to give us the fuel we need, when we need it.

The Fattening of America

It's not surprising that many people are caught in perpetual cycles of weight gain and weight loss. Why? Because much of the information we have received from friends, relatives, magazines, newspapers, commercial weight-loss companies and government health agencies about reducing excess weight is simply wrong. Over the past 20 years, this misinformation has been responsible for making us fat-phobic. We fanatically consume only low fat foods in an attempt to remain or get thin. We eat fat free chips, muffins, and cookies; we drink skimmed milk; we even buy fat free ice cream and yogurt. And what has been the pay-off for our fat obsession? Has our dedication to a low fat lifestyle turned us into a nation of lean, healthy people? No! In fact the exact opposite has resulted. Over the past 20 years the US population (as well as most countries that eat a western diet) has experienced a consistent increase in excess body fat. Obesity over the last ten years has reached widespread levels in the U.S. despite the public actually consuming less fat than before. In November of 1998, the U.S. Surgeon General declared an epidemic of obesity in America.

The Food Pyramid

Let's look at how food is currently being prescribed. I'm sure you have seen this food pyramid. It's on little refrigerator magnets, and you can't open a health magazine without seeing it. It's been the poster child of the high carbohydrate, low fat diet. What most people don't realize, is that this pyramid wasn't designed by the medical establishment. It was designed by the US Agricultural Department. Now the Agricultural Department is a fine agency, but its job is not to give medical advice. Its job is to sell agricultural products.

The current "healthy" diet consists of about sixty-five percent carbohydrates, fifteen percent fat, and twenty percent protein. These numbers are shown in this pyramid. As you see, we have been told to eat almost eleven servings a day of breads, cereal, rice, and pasta. They are at the basis of the pyramid. These products are refined carbohydrates. They are manmade carbohydrates. The food industry has made them palatable for us and they make a good profit doing it. On the next levels are the fruits and vegetables, meat and fish. Fats, oils and sweets get regulated to the top, because they're the enemy.

Was this diet ever tested in the human population prior to being recommended by the US government? Surprisingly, the answer is no. This diet came out in the late sixties in response to the rising epidemic of heart disease. The American Heart Association decided that since fat is a key component for one of the risk factors for heart disease, then Americans should start eating less saturated fat. The problem is that there are more types of fat than just saturated fat. The government assumed we were not smart enough to just cut out saturated fats, so it urged us to cut out all fat. Fat was labeled as the enemy.

Fat is a source of calories. When you cut out fat, you have to replace those calories with something else. The replacement was carbohydrates, because carbohydrates often don't have any fat. The vacuum formed by reducing all the fat in our diets was taken up by carbohydrates. By the early seventies, we were being inundated with information. Eat high complex carbohydrates, eat all the pasta you want, there's no fat in it. Your diet is healthy as long as you don't add any fat to your meal. Well, we listened, and now, twenty-five years after this diet came out, we are suffering the consequences. When this diet was created in the late sixties, twenty-five percent of the adult population was obese. We have now hit the fifty percent mark.

Dietary Fat Does Not Make You Fat!

The solution to this apparent riddle might surprise you, but the explanation is simple. Eating fat in the proper amounts does not make you fat.

Carbohydrates: The Real Culprit

If you wanted to find out the best way to make people fat, who would you consult? One industry has spent millions and millions of dollars studying this question, and that's the cattle and hog industry. Why? Because for them, learning the quickest way to fatten an animal leads to the highest profits.

So how do they do it? Do they feed their livestock diets high in fat? Do they put out tubs of butter and ice cream to get their animals nice and plump? No! The cattle industry knows that the quickest way to fatten cows and hogs is to restrict their activity, not let them roam on the range (sort of like our couch potatoes), and feed them lots and lots of low fat, complex carbohydrates, in the form of grain.

Our own systems are not that much different from the ones for cows and hogs. Just as the best way to fatten cattle is to feed them excessive amounts of low-fat grain, so too the best way to fatten yourself up is to eat lots of low-fat processed carbohydrates. Your genetic biochemical response to these carbohydrates is what makes you fat.

Eating carbohydrates stimulates insulin secretion. Since your body has a limited capacity to store carbohydrates, doesn't know when its next meal might be, and has an unlimited ability to store food as fat, insulin does just that. Insulin turns the excess carbohydrates into fat! Dietary fat, on the other hand, does not stimulate insulin secretion.

By eating the proper ratio of low-density carbohydrates, dietary fat, and protein, you can control your insulin production. Maintaining your insulin level within a therapeutic zone, makes it possible for you to burn excess body fat (and keep it off permanently) and enjoy increased energy, improved mental focus, and increased vitality.

Whether what you just ate will be used for immediate energy or stored as body fat depends on whether you are in the Zone. The more closely you follow the Zone diet, the less excess body fat you will have. Permanent fat loss is possible once you know the facts. You can lose weight and keep it off simply...safely...easily... and permanently.


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## damagedgoods (Oct 17, 2003)

Guys - this is one of the most informative threads I've read on here. good work.

One question - you state that mixing eggs in the blender destroys the protein structure - I am a little confused here - I know mechanical action can denature protein - but if you break down the proetien you are left with amino Acids, in fact the whole purpose of digestion is to break the protien down to AA's so that they can be used by our body, or at least that is what I thought. this isn't a criticism I am just curious - and if you are right I'll throw away my blender!


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## Cookie (Sep 14, 2009)

Some extra info regarding the protein cycling stuff I put forward in the original article.



The Protein Paradox Revisited: Is Protein Cycling the Solution?
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*by Greg E. Bradley-Popovich, DPT, MS, MS, CSCS*

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© 1999
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*Originally published in Exercise Protocol 1999;Winter:18-19*

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Certainly one of the most widely utilized dietary tactics among strength-trained athletes is the consumption of a high-protein diet. For instance, it is not uncommon for elite bodybuilders to consume 400-500 g of protein per day. They do so claiming they have found this results in optimal gains in muscle hypertrophy. What these individuals do not realize is that their strategy may be less than optimal. In fact, it may actually prove self-defeating.
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Several studies of resistance-trained individuals have demonstrated a significant increase in nitrogen retention when supraphysiological amounts of protein were administered. A positive nitrogen balance is generally thought to reflect an increase in lean body mass, particularly skeletal muscle when a strength-training stimulus is present. Thus, the evidence supports consumption of extra protein in these athletes, at least superficially. However, in many instances, what the researchers measured was not the effect of a high-protein diet per se, but rather the investigators measured the effect of an acute increase in protein ingestion. In other words, most studies collected data during a change in the diet. Many of such studies would have likely found that if the observation period would have been of greater duration, the positive effects of the high protein diets would have been diminished as the body adapted to the diet. The decrease in the efficiency of protein utilization with chronic ingestion of a high-protein diet partly explains why nitrogen balance studies of resistance trainees have shown a broad range of ceilings for "optimal" protein intake since some subjects entered the studies having habitually consumed a normal protein diet while others had been consuming a high-protein diet.
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This dietary dilemma is further complicated by the widely advocated practice of frequent protein consumption every three hours or so. It is conceivable that this strategy may also decrease the body's adeptness at handling periods of less protein consumption. For example, this practice could cause one to enter into a catabolic state during sleep when one goes for many hours without food. Perhaps not surprisingly, some athletes do go so far as to wake in the night so that they may fulfill their need to feed.
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The body's adaptability to varying quantities of dietary protein is not an unusual physiological capability. The concept of conservation versus elimination with respect to nutrients is relatively ubiquitous throughout the body. When we consume too much of a particular nutrient, the body becomes more efficient at ridding the body of that substance. This is usually accomplished through a decrease in absorption from the gastrointestinal tract and/or an increase in metabolism and elimination of the nutrient. Conversely, when a nutrient's demand surpasses a nutrient's supply, the body makes attempts to conserve that nutrient.
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In a correlational study, my colleagues and I reviewed the findings of nine nitrogen balance studies of resistance-trained individuals in which protein intake was manipulated (manuscript submitted for publication). Among our calculations, we found that net protein utilization (NPU), a measure of the efficiency of dietary protein utilization, decreased by almost 70% when compared to that of the average American. There are a number of factors that could contribute to this observed decrease in efficiency of utilization, but nevertheless the subjects were generally very inefficient with regard to nitrogen consumed as protein versus nitrogen retained. NPU would have likely decreased even further over a longer period of exposure to increased dietary protein.
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Our recent findings lend support to the notion that chronic consumption of a high-protein diet leads to a dependency on such a diet. In our previous example of elite bodybuilders' notable protein consumption, it is possible that the athletes themselves create a protein dependency. Their bodies, accustomed to copious dietary protein, squander their protein resources so that progressively more protein is needed to result in optimal protein accretion in the form of muscle hypertrophy. It is obvious that one cannot increase one's protein intake indefinitely. So what can be done to resolve this issue?
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A possible solution to this protein paradox may rest within a concept known as protein cycling. Protein cycling has been written about previously but, as of this writing, has never been experimentally tested. The underlying premise of protein cycling is consuming supraphysiological amounts of protein when the body has been primed to utilize the protein with maximum efficiency. This is hypothetically accomplished by very gradually tapering off protein ingestion to modest levels over several weeks followed by abruptly increasing protein intake. After several additional weeks when the body has adapted to the high-protein diet by increasing amino acid degradation, the process is repeated. Additionally, the variable of meal frequency could be manipulated to further increase the body's efficiency. For example, the frequency of protein feedings could be reduced to increase the body's efficiency of protein usage in preparation for the high-protein phase of the cycle.
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It could be years before data on protein cycling are collected and the research is replicated. But, it only makes sense to attempt to harness the adaptive mechanisms that have ensured our survival for millions of years. It is always prudent to work with the body, not against it.
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## Cookie (Sep 14, 2009)

The Protein Paradox Revisited: Is Protein Cycling the Solution? The Final Installment

by Greg Bradley-Popovich, DPT, MSEP, MS, CSCS and David Staplin

© 2000

*Originally published in Exercise Protocol 2000;Summer:42-44*

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Prior to this final installment, we have presented the rationale for experimenting with protein cycling given that one cannot increase one's protein intake indefinitely to offset parallel decreases in nitrogen-retention efficiency. So, it is with pleasure that we review some proposed protocols for protein cycling. We'll also present some personal observations with regard to dietary adaptation.

*Protein Cycling Protocols*

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*None of the protocols for cycling protein intake have been put forth in scientific journals, although there is scientific literature to buttress some of the proponent's arguments. To date, body building literature has served as the main vehicle for conveying thoughts on protein cycling. In fact, we are not aware of any discussions of this subject in scientific circles.

Torbjorn Ackerfeldt (1) eloquently proposed a well-supported system of protein cycling and may have been the first author to resurrect the concept in many years. According to Ackerfeldt, because the "primed condition" following the low-protein phase lasts only 2-3 days, he proposes an acutely undulating model whereby a high-protein diet is consumed for 3 days followed by a low-protein diet for 3 days. The cycle then repeats itself. He recommends consuming 3.3 g protein/kg body wt/day on the high-protein days and 1.1 g protein/kg body wt/day on the low-protein days. He recommends consuming very high-quality protein on the low-protein days to maintain levels of glutathione, an important antioxidant. Furthermore, his training recommendations include no weighttraining on the first low-protein day and no aerobic exercise on the second morning. Total caloric consumption is to remain constant, increasing carbohydrate and fat intake on low-protein days to maintain adequate energy intake. Finally, he recommends consuming plenty of water (about 120 oz/day), particularly on the high-protein days. Ackerfeldt does not address the effect of meal frequency and neglects to consider that body builders typically consume very high-quality protein which would allow body builders to consume even less protein during the low-protein days. For example, the RDA for protein (.8 g/kg body wt/day) could be cut by more than half if only egg protein were consumed (2).

Marcus Jones (3) presents a more extreme form of protein cycling. Jones recommends reducing current protein intake by 50% per week until a goal of 20-40 g of protein per day is attained. Deleted calories from reduced protein are replaced only 1/2 to 2/3 with calories from carbohydrates, unless weight loss is noted for more than 4 days. According to Jones, the low-protein phase should last 4 weeks. The protein repletion phase is characterized by consuming 1 g protein/lb body wt/day. For comparison to Ackerfeldt's recommendation expressed in kilograms, this corresponds to 2.2 g protein/kg body wt/day. Jones suggests the high-protein phase to have a duration of 4-8 weeks until a plateau in progress is reached. He does address the issue of protein feeding frequency, suggesting 4-6 meals during the high protein phase, but offers no suggestions as to how to adjust this variable for the low protein phase. He recommends ingesting protein immediately following training. In the interest of long-term health, one goal of Jones's protocol by enhancing efficiency of protein utilization is to permanently reduce the maximum quantity of protein ingested compared to protein consumption prior to embarking on protein cycling. Jones doesn't make specific protein recommendations for the low-protein phase relative to body weight. How does one determine whether to eat 20 or 40 g protein/day? Neither does he address how to alter training volume, intensity, etc. during the various phases. Jones's article has more hyperbole than the other publications, and he places much emphasis on the effects of protein cycling on growth hormone. Contrary to the widespread belief in the body building community, growth hormone--even at pharmacological doses--has little, if anything, to do with muscle growth in adult humans with or without the presence of resistance exercise, and this viewpoint is supported by several scientific reviews (4-8). (Growth hormone's mediator, circulating insulin-like growth factor 1 (IGF-1), is equally unimportant in exercise-induced muscle hypertrophy. It's all about autocrine and paracrine IGF-1 secretion within the muscle, folks!)

One of the authors most critical of the concept of protein cycling is Lyle McDonald, who voiced several criticisms of Jones's published protocol (9). In his own review of protein metabolism, McDonald (10) discusses protein adaptation studies in animal and human models within the context of protein cycling. He states, "the above data supports [sic] the idea of short (3-12 day cycles of alternating protein intake) far more than it does the idea of a full month of low-protein." McDonald goes on to conclude, "...not only does the body appear to first replete those proteins which were first lost (liver and other organ proteins), but by the time those proteins are repleted, the body has readapted to the current level of protein intake." In the end, McDonald recommends 1 g protein/lb body wt/day or "slightly less." In contrast, we would propose that if copious protein is abruptly consumed during repletion, then there would be enough protein for both restoration of organ stores as well as muscle growth, although this is hypothetical. McDonald's final recommendation does not address the possibility that by slowly decreasing protein intake over time, a lower-protein diet would work equally well as maintaining a high-protein intake. We recommend McDonald's series as a well-referenced, thorough review of protein metabolism.

Speculations

It should be emphasized that any evidence that results from documentation of the effects of any of these protocols is going to be very indirect evidence. For example, increased muscle size and strength is going to be a result of enhanced nitrogen retention which in turn is dependent on the enzymes responsible for protein anabolism or catabolism. Since the increase or decrease in efficiency of protein metabolism is enzyme mediated--both the protein oxidation and protein storage--maybe a better understanding of the time course for enzyme production is what is required for the concept of protein cycling to advance beyond its speculative infancy. Because the half-lives of the catabolic and anabolic enzymes are different, it seems that understanding the enzymes is the key to understanding the proper time course for protein cycling. Perhaps some skinny enzyme biochemist in a hidden laboratory holds key information in this regard.

*The Pitfalls of Research*

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*Clinical investigation of protein cycling, if ever taken seriously by nutrition researchers, could prove very difficult to generate conclusive findings. The difficulty lies in the multitude of possible combinations of daily protein intake (i.e., how low and high should you go?), protein quality, frequency of protein feedings, concurrent caloric consumption, and cycle duration (i.e., how long should each phase last?). Thus, whatever data are generated will have to be viewed cautiously because a lack of benefit to protein cycling could actually be attributed to the exact implementation of the protein cycling protocol rather than the ineffectiveness of protein cycling per se. Just one mismanipulated variable could sabotage the outcomes of the cycling. Much tinkering may be involved in fine-tuning the manipulated variables so that a fruitful combination is achieved. In the meantime, it appears that self-experimentation based on the broad guidelines presented above is the only avenue for individual self-discovery as to the possible benefits of protein cycling.

*Reflections and Observations*

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*One of us (D.S.) has engaged in such self-experimentation. We want to make it very clear that these are merely reflections and NOT the result of research and do NOT represent conclusive statements. For "fun," he has tinkered with the protocol of Jones. After the first three weeks of cycling, he reports, "I was VERY hungry the first 2 weeks of decreasing protein cycles (240 g protein/day to 120 g protein/day during week 1, then from 120 g protein/day to 60 g protein/day during week 2). To counteract this hunger, I had to increase carbohydrate levels by at least the same number of grams by which protein was reduced. During the third week, this feeling of hunger subsided, and I was able to reduce my carbohydrate levels some, but did crave a steak or hamburger. My strength remained unaffected..."

Dave, in his 25 years of experience in bodybuilding, has also observed that periods of rapid progress in growth or training seem to occur in three week cycles. For example, his training partner, a powerlifter, recently increased his calorie and protein intake by roughly 30% which yielded strength and weight gains for about three weeks until plateauing. He has observed that after anabolic steroids "kick-in" (usually 2 weeks following pharmacological intervention), the best gains occur for the next three weeks. He notes that after dieting for a bodybuilding contest for 8-12 weeks, upon resuming a normal diet he experiences a surge in growth and strength that lasts 2-3 weeks. Given these observations he reports, "My unresearched, untested 'gut feel' is that we are going to see a 10-20 day time frame for complete adaptation, whether it's to high or low levels of protein consumption."

*Recommendations*

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*

*
*As you can see, the opinions regarding protein cycling in bodybuilding are many and varied. Regardless of what protein cycling protocol you may choose, document all of your practices carefully so that others and yourself may learn from your self-experimentation. Good luck!

Damagedgoods,sorry for the late reply,the idea of the blending being bad is that it breaks up the fat molicules to a state that the body finds them hard to digest thus leading to gas and improper digestion.


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

I wish it would of had some double blind studies. This article does seem to be three guys opinions. Oh well. The article that I read some guy got his protein to about 30 grams a day I forget how long though. When he incorported about 1.5 grams per bodyweight he exploded like gear. The only problem is when he got down to 30 grams of protein a day he was loosing muscle. So take it off to put it back on is not my idea of fun. I believe in cycling protein but not to that extreme.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Yah, i think it was Bill Phillips that did a study too on protein cycleing.

He said 2 weeks of overfeeding spiked natural hormone levels alot but after 2 weeks they declined.

So he dieted for 2 weeks and overfed for two weeks.

The guy got great gains.

He lifted heavy during the anabolic overfeeding phase then on the dieting phase where catabolism is hovering he went light.

The guy got great results.


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## Cookie (Sep 14, 2009)

been awhile sinse this last saw the light of day,then again some may feel it should be left dead and buried

Anyway your a lucky lot I tried to post this up in my corner on bio to tie up my High fat thread on there but its too big so instead of letting it go to waste I thought you lot might like it:bounce:

Basically its one of the things that got me really into the ketogenic way of dieting and opened up a bit of a can of worms shall we say with regards to how I viewed all things dieting..

Anyway I think its a good read so hope you enjoy it..


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## samurai691436114498 (Jan 6, 2005)

Cheers OSC, sure i would have found it over at Bio too


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## Captain Hero (Jun 13, 2004)

nice one OSC ill have a read of that later


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## bulking (Oct 1, 2007)

old article i know lol - nothing here re training...

???


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## Cookie (Sep 14, 2009)

bulking said:


> old article i know lol - nothing here re training...
> 
> ???


LOL..

back from the dead....


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## paulo (Feb 17, 2007)

send it as attachment if poss so i can print off?


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## Cookie (Sep 14, 2009)

paulo said:


> send it as attachment if poss so i can print off?


???????????????


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## gym rat (Jul 10, 2007)

what a great read, very informative, nice one


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## paulo (Feb 17, 2007)

i meant is it possible to save this somehow then print off(no very i.t switched on !)


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## Cookie (Sep 14, 2009)

paulo said:


> i meant is it possible to save this somehow then print off(no very i.t switched on !)


I usually copy and paste stuff into a word document...


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## Cookie (Sep 14, 2009)

gym rat said:


> what a great read, very informative, nice one


Glad you liked it...


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## paulo (Feb 17, 2007)

ok will do that thanks


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## Tall (Aug 14, 2007)

Cracking read


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## Cookie (Sep 14, 2009)

TH&S said:


> Cracking read


Are you stalking me???????????????????


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## Tall (Aug 14, 2007)

ONE SMART COOKIE said:


> Are you stalking me???????????????????


No... (Yes...)

-1


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## SCJP (Sep 8, 2005)

ONE SMART COOKIE said:


> Raw Eggs for Your Health


I tried raw eggs (almost raw anyway - miked for 30s) a while ago but thought they were horrid, had another attempt at eating them on Sunday (4, whisked by hand - will just use a fork i future) & they went down fine.

The beauty of them is the lack of prep required & the fact that they can be drunk very quickly. A couple of slices of good quality bown bread & butter & you have a very quick & tasty meal/snack.

I might try & build up to consuming a dozen a day, straight from the shell!

I'd probably get a few funny looks on the train.


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## Cookie (Sep 14, 2009)

SCJP said:


> I tried raw eggs (almost raw anyway - miked for 30s) a while ago but thought they were horrid, had another attempt at eating them on Sunday (4, whisked by hand - will just use a fork i future) & they went down fine.
> 
> The beauty of them is the lack of prep required & the fact that they can be drunk very quickly. A couple of slices of good quality bown bread & butter & you have a very quick & tasty meal/snack.
> 
> ...


*Quite possibly*


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## iwannagetbig (May 24, 2008)

nice


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## iwannagetbig (May 24, 2008)

bulkaholic said:


> Very interesting read. Glad somebody pulled this one out from the depths.


np


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## bogman (Jun 25, 2007)

I see the start of this article was posted in 2004 by Cookie. The protein cycling theory sounds interesting, however, I haven't seen it mentioned in recent'ish posts? Has anyone tried it? did it work?


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