# Seated dumbell press or overhead press?



## BingoBongo (Jul 25, 2011)

Hi guys, looking for a wee bit of advice. I currently do seated shoulder press as my heavy shoulder exercise then flys, arnolds & raises etc. I was thinking about replacing it with the standing overhead press.

my question is should i do this? what is better seated shoulder press or standing overhead press (OHP)?

I have always done seated shoulder press so if i do change to OHP then the weight will probably drop dramatically until i get the technique so that is another reason why i am unsure about changing. With the seated shoulder press it feels like it isolates the shoulder more than the overhead press and after shoulders i'll move onto deadlifts which is a intense compound movement which hits all the secondry muscles, i understand it won't hit the stabilisers as it would if i did OHP, but it will improve strength. If i add in the overhead press before DL's will this potentailly take away from my DL?

Very confused about this any help would be appreicated.


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## guvnor82 (Oct 23, 2011)

what your split look like bud cuz your doing shoulder press then fly's witch are 4 chest then deads witch is 4 back.

i like doing shoulder sat down either db, smith machine, hammer strength or in power rack................seated less stress on the back


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## Ginger Ben (Oct 5, 2010)

Personally I start my shoulder workout with standing OHP, strict form i.e. not a push press using the legs to get you going. Then I do something like face pulls and then seated shoulder press on the machine for my heavy presses. You will find your OHP will take a while to build up but IMO the benefits outweigh the costs. You'll get a stronger core, better balance and be more powerful.

I don't see OHP negatively affecting your DL to be honest, I personally wouldn't do them back to back but that's just my view.


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## BingoBongo (Jul 25, 2011)

I know what both of you are saying about my split but its working for me just now. I throw DL in with shoulders cause if i do it same day as upper back i find i am going through the motion as opposed to making progress...it seems to work for me..

mon - shoulders (the fly's i refer to are side raises) & Only DL (lower back)

tues - judo

Wed - Back (chins, rows etc) & tri's

thurs - legs

fri - chest bi's

sat - judo

sun - rest.

if you can work a better split let me know...


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## guvnor82 (Oct 23, 2011)

mon chest tri

tue judo

we back,bi's

thu shoulders forarms abs

fri legs


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## bdcc (Aug 15, 2011)

Do you mean standing military press or overhead press with dumbbells?

EMG studies show higher levels of activation in the medial deltoid with dumbell shoulder presses and higher levels of anterior deltoid activation with the barbell overhead press.


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## BingoBongo (Jul 25, 2011)

Ginger Ben said:


> Personally I start my shoulder workout with standing OHP, strict form i.e. not a push press using the legs to get you going. Then I do something like face pulls and then seated shoulder press on the machine for my heavy presses. You will find your OHP will take a while to build up but IMO the benefits outweigh the costs. You'll get a stronger core, better balance and be more powerful.
> 
> I don't see OHP negatively affecting your DL to be honest, I personally wouldn't do them back to back but that's just my view.


So your "heavy" shoulders is on the seated machine? So whats your OHP weight/bodyweight ratio and reps like?


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## BingoBongo (Jul 25, 2011)

bdcc said:


> Do you mean standing military press or overhead press with dumbbells?
> 
> EMG studies show higher levels of activation in the medial deltoid with dumbell shoulder presses and higher levels of anterior deltoid activation with the barbell overhead press.


Military press is feet together is it not? OHP is feet shoulder with apart? both are with barbells. Its with the barbell though.


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## Ginger Ben (Oct 5, 2010)

BingoBongo said:


> I know what both of you are saying about my split but its working for me just now. I throw DL in with shoulders cause if i do it same day as upper back i find i am going through the motion as opposed to making progress...it seems to work for me..
> 
> mon - shoulders (the fly's i refer to are side raises) & Only DL (lower back)
> 
> ...


Do your dl earlier in your back session then, or move it to leg day, a lot of people do that. You can alternate each week with squats so you have one week where you have heavy deads and lighter squats with more volume, the following week you work on heavy squats followed by higher volume deads. Do the heavy one first then something else, then the lighter compound.

I do deads on back day personally and my session looks something like -

Chins/Pulls

Deads

Seated Row or DB rows

Straight arm pull downs or some sort of other pull down, close grip or wide or machine pulls (plate loaded) varying grip.

I do traps on shoulder day so I can focus on the above on back day.


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## Ginger Ben (Oct 5, 2010)

BingoBongo said:


> So your "heavy" shoulders is on the seated machine? So whats your OHP weight/bodyweight ratio and reps like?


Yes. My last shoulder session I did Mil Press first - [email protected] (warm up), [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected] (weight isn't great but its a focus at the moment)

My seated shoulder press (on a hammer strength plate loaded machine is) - [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected]

My body weight is 103kg.

I count my shoulders as quite a strong bodypart, certainly on the seated press but my mil press isn't that special. This is because it shows up weaknesses with core strength etc that I use it to work on. The reason for doing both is that while my mil press isnt that heavy (relative to seated) I want to improve this so I do this when I'm fresh but I know my shoulders can still take more so I do seated afterwards to really hit them hard.


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## BingoBongo (Jul 25, 2011)

Ginger Ben said:


> Do your dl earlier in your back session then, or move it to leg day, a lot of people do that. You can alternate each week with squats so you have one week where you have heavy deads and lighter squats with more volume, the following week you work on heavy squats followed by higher volume deads. Do the heavy one first then something else, then the lighter compound.
> 
> I do deads on back day personally and my session looks something like -
> 
> ...


When i did DL on back day I started with DL's first always heavy. body weight upto 180kg 3 sets for 3 then down 10kg 1 set for 3 to 100kg. after that back and grip is pretty useless...am i over doing DL's? or should I do upper back first then finish with heavy DL's?


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## guvnor82 (Oct 23, 2011)

always start my back workout with deads as i very rarely go light on them


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## Ginger Ben (Oct 5, 2010)

BingoBongo said:


> When i did DL on back day I started with DL's first always heavy. body weight upto 180kg 3 sets for 3 then down 10kg 1 set for 3 to 100kg. after that back and grip is pretty useless...am i over doing DL's? or should I do upper back first then finish with heavy DL's?


No mate, sounds good to me. Grip and endurance will improve with time. Do you use straps on your DL's? If you are trainuing purely for strength then I'd say don't but if you are going more down the bodybuilding route then use them and save your grip for the rest of the session. Or use them on other exercises after dl's if your grip is shot. I've strapped myself on to the lat pull down many a time as I know theres more in the tank with my back but my forearms and grip are fvcked.


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## Ginger Ben (Oct 5, 2010)

Ultimately (and we've gone off on a bit of a tangent here) it is up to you to work out what works best. Other people will tell you what works well for them, but they are not you. My advice for your original question is do your shoulder presses standing, the benefits are better than seated. Then do some seated ones too if you feel you need to.


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## BingoBongo (Jul 25, 2011)

Ginger Ben said:


> Yes. My last shoulder session I did Mil Press first - [email protected] (warm up), [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected] (weight isn't great but its a focus at the moment)
> 
> My seated shoulder press (on a hammer strength plate loaded machine is) - [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected]
> 
> ...


I think i'll work along your lines. start with OHP but i won't burst my **** then move onto seated and go heavy then. Until i improve enough. It will be a good gauge so see improvements as well and see if i enjoy the movement.

cheers for that...still not sure about my DL routine though.


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## leeds_01 (Aug 6, 2008)

over head press for me every time - but yeah what ever works for you


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## BingoBongo (Jul 25, 2011)

Ginger Ben said:


> No mate, sounds good to me. Grip and endurance will improve with time. Do you use straps on your DL's? If you are trainuing purely for strength then I'd say don't but if you are going more down the bodybuilding route then use them and save your grip for the rest of the session. Or use them on other exercises after dl's if your grip is shot. I've strapped myself on to the lat pull down many a time as I know theres more in the tank with my back but my forearms and grip are fvcked.


I don't use straps cause i need strong grip and wrists for judo. I think i'll move DL's this week to back and cut out the drops and see if that helps.

As for my shoulder routine i'll start with the OHP. cheers again feel alot more confident about changing the shoulder routine. when you've spent years with a trusted exercise its hard to let it go...lol


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## Ginger Ben (Oct 5, 2010)

BingoBongo said:


> I think i'll work along your lines. start with OHP but i won't burst my **** then move onto seated and go heavy then. Until i improve enough. It will be a good gauge so see improvements as well and see if i enjoy the movement.
> 
> cheers for that...still not sure about my DL routine though.


Give it a spin, see how you get on. I found my seated press strength improved when I started doing OHP as well. There will probably come a point where both aren't required but then again for a bit of variety I like to do both anyway. Mix it up some days, do seated first when fresh and blast the heavy stuff then do lighter more volume OHP to really exhaust the muscles.

What's your concern with the deads then? Doing it on shoulder day or the sets/reps you are doing? Personally I think the set/rep range is good, good lifting to do [email protected] but you could change it up and try 2x5 or 1x5 at a higher weight and pyramid up and down differently to allow you do make the reps at the higher weight. Loads of ways to skin a cat basically, as long as it works that's what matters. If you finish your deads and feel like you might feint or puke, I'd say you've done a good job! :laugh:


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## Ginger Ben (Oct 5, 2010)

BingoBongo said:


> I don't use straps cause i need strong grip and wrists for judo. I think i'll move DL's this week to back and cut out the drops and see if that helps.
> 
> As for my shoulder routine i'll start with the OHP. cheers again feel alot more confident about changing the shoulder routine. when you've spent years with a trusted exercise its hard to let it go...lol


Fair enough, no worries mate, let us know how it goes. :thumbup1:


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## Matt 1 (May 8, 2010)

ones not better than the other mate, theres no secret best exercise, the secret it mixing up between them all.


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## Breda (May 2, 2011)

Do both!!


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## WannaGetHench (Aug 22, 2010)

i find that seated dumbells arnt a natural movement for me, I do prefer MP but cant move a lot of weight?


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## BingoBongo (Jul 25, 2011)

Ginger Ben said:


> Give it a spin, see how you get on. I found my seated press strength improved when I started doing OHP as well. There will probably come a point where both aren't required but then again for a bit of variety I like to do both anyway. Mix it up some days, do seated first when fresh and blast the heavy stuff then do lighter more volume OHP to really exhaust the muscles.
> 
> What's your concern with the deads then? Doing it on shoulder day or the sets/reps you are doing? Personally I think the set/rep range is good, good lifting to do [email protected] but you could change it up and try 2x5 or 1x5 at a higher weight and pyramid up and down differently to allow you do make the reps at the higher weight. Loads of ways to skin a cat basically, as long as it works that's what matters. If you finish your deads and feel like you might feint or puke, I'd say you've done a good job! :laugh:


I'll stop annoying you in a bit but its like a kid in a sweet shop.

My concern with deads is I go after deads as hard as i can to the point of feint and pucking! or at least not far from it, lol. after them i could leave the gym and have done more work than most of the guys in there doing full body workouts however, i feel like am being lazy and then move onto upper back and its very poor. all strength is pretty much drained so, i split back over two days lower back one day upper the next. when i hit upper i can fire out chins rows etc all heavy and all pretty high reps but if i do it after deads....nothing.. Its frustrating as hell so do i try what you mentioned for shoulders, alternate weeks? heavy dl's and poor upper back one week the light dl's and good upper back the next?


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## BingoBongo (Jul 25, 2011)

Matt 1 said:


> ones not better than the other mate, theres no secret best exercise, the secret it mixing up between them all.


That's not what i'm asking. I'm asking if instead of heavy seated should i start on the road to heavy OHP to start with. whats the benefits compared the just sticking with heavy seated and light OHP. Sorry for the confusion.


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## Matt 1 (May 8, 2010)

WannaGetHench said:


> i find that seated dumbells arnt a natural movement for me, I do prefer MP but cant move a lot of weight?


because youre shoulders arent as strong as you'd like, simple as that, keep training and they'll get stronger.

dont count an exercise like seated dumbbell press out because you feel its unatural, because I can assure you, it is


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## Matt 1 (May 8, 2010)

BingoBongo said:


> That's not what i'm asking. I'm asking if instead of heavy seated should i start on the road to heavy OHP to start with. whats the benefits compared the just sticking with heavy seated and light OHP. Sorry for the confusion.


So you're asking:

Heavy OHP then light seated

or

Heavy seated then light OHP

?


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## BingoBongo (Jul 25, 2011)

Matt 1 said:


> So you're asking:
> 
> Heavy OHP then light seated
> 
> ...


in essence, yes. seated your taking stabilisers out standing your not. Is there dramatic core strength increase by doing OHP. or am i best to do seated shoulder press and continue heavy squats and dealift to increase core strength. all valid questions that i would like some direction on.

you seem a fun guy!


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## Ginger Ben (Oct 5, 2010)

BingoBongo said:


> I'll stop annoying you in a bit but its like a kid in a sweet shop.
> 
> My concern with deads is I go after deads as hard as i can to the point of feint and pucking! or at least not far from it, lol. after them i could leave the gym and have done more work than most of the guys in there doing full body workouts however, i feel like am being lazy and then move onto upper back and its very poor. all strength is pretty much drained so, i split back over two days lower back one day upper the next. when i hit upper i can fire out chins rows etc all heavy and all pretty high reps but if i do it after deads....nothing.. Its frustrating as hell so do i try what you mentioned for shoulders, alternate weeks? heavy dl's and poor upper back one week the light dl's and good upper back the next?


No problem mate.

Don't see less than max weight lifted as a poor workout, that would be my first thought. There's nothing wrong with doing a deads session at less than full blast weight wise but you need to adjust what you do to make up for it i.e. increase the volume and intensity (less rest between sets). [email protected] is great but will be very taxing. Nothing wrong with the following week doing something like [email protected] as your working sets and pyramid up and down as you have been.

It's all about variety, you don't need to go balls out all the time if you keep the intensity high enough.


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## BingoBongo (Jul 25, 2011)

Ginger Ben said:


> No problem mate.
> 
> Don't see less than max weight lifted as a poor workout, that would be my first thought. There's nothing wrong with doing a deads session at less than full blast weight wise but you need to adjust what you do to make up for it i.e. increase the volume and intensity (less rest between sets). [email protected] is great but will be very taxing. Nothing wrong with the following week doing something like [email protected] as your working sets and pyramid up and down as you have been.
> 
> It's all about variety, you don't need to go balls out all the time if you keep the intensity high enough.


I'll try switching it up. Cheers for the advice. I'll let you know how I get on.


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