# Martin Berkhan VS Lyle McDonald



## rectus (Jan 18, 2012)

These are grown, educated and apparently intelligent men...

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache%3A9ZSL3_6wgfAJ%3Awww.leangains.com%2F+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca









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## Little_one (Jul 12, 2011)

I have/had a lot of respect for both these guys, Martin seemed to go off the rails a while back and lyle has just joined him.

The ego is a powerful thing!


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## simonthepieman (Jun 11, 2012)

I'm friends with Lyle on Facebook. He has always been that much of douche bag. At least he is honest about it all. And I'd trust his nutrition information over martin who has been pushing an agenda with an impartia view for far too long. Shame as i used to like him.

It seems everyone in the nutritional industry goes mental in the end no matter how well they start


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## Heath (Mar 3, 2011)

Handbags at dawn!


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## rectus (Jan 18, 2012)

simonthepieman said:


> I'm friends with Lyle on Facebook. He has always been that much of douche bag. At least he is honest about it all. And I'd trust his nutrition information over martin who has been pushing an agenda with an impartia view for far too long. Shame as i used to like him.
> 
> It seems everyone in the nutritional industry goes mental in the end no matter how well they start


Yeah they are two people who I have respect for but it baffles me that it has come to this. This community should be about sharing ideas and experiences but it isn't unfortunately. It's popular to "call someone out" as they say. Well that works as it gets you lots of attention which is what they want of course, it's just a shame it's so negative when bodybuilding is a positive sport - it's about determination, taking control, and changing your life for the better.


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## alchemystical (Jan 16, 2013)

simonthepieman said:


> It seems everyone in the nutritional industry goes mental in the end no matter how well they start


I think it could have something to do with the wacky diets they push, makes the brain go funny.


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## Bull Terrier (May 14, 2012)

That really is pathetic. I always knew that Lyle had a hot temper, but jeez...


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## Heath (Mar 3, 2011)

Martin was even slating Alan Aragon for no reason lol


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## Hmob (Mar 12, 2013)

Shame. Lyle Mcdonald is a jedi knight in this field. Martin Berkhan is smart as fcuk. They both lie on the side of the fence that casts off bullsh1t and nutritional superstition. Its a crying shame they are not seeing eye to eye on things anymore.


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

Give them a break, just human nature - they are just ordinary people prone to the same moments of ego, bitchiness, closed-mindedness and error as anyone else.


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## Bull Terrier (May 14, 2012)

simonthepieman said:


> I'm friends with Lyle on Facebook. He has always been that much of douche bag. At least he is honest about it all. And I'd trust his nutrition information *over martin who has been pushing an agenda with an impartia view for far too long*. Shame as i used to like him.
> 
> It seems everyone in the nutritional industry goes mental in the end no matter how well they start


Simon - could you please clarify what you mean in the part I put in bold?


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## Heath (Mar 3, 2011)

Don't know if its part of what Simon ment but with Martin he preaches how he's the only one in this to not make money a bit too often IMO


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## simonthepieman (Jun 11, 2012)

Bull Terrier said:


> Simon - could you please clarify what you mean in the part I put in bold?





MutantX said:


> Don't know if its part of what Simon ment but with Martin he preaches how he's the only one in this to not make money a bit too often IMO


not really Mutant, but i guess its a valid point.

For the record I do IF when cutting. It's a great tool to have the box.

What I referring to is Martin has built a career out of publishing every little bit of information that can pin to his methodologies. Regardless if they are terrible studies with bad methods or just broscience. Don't get me wrong, he has a lot of good stuff busting other bro-science which I respect. But some of his supporting documents are flimsey and he knows it. I haven't been on his site for a bout a year, but before then I had read every single article on that site, probably several times. Rather than be impartial and objective, he ignores rationale and constructive objections and sticks to his guns.

Which in all fairness I can appreciate, he is selling a product/services and it makes commercial sense to push an agenda. But I am not in this for the money and i'm the quest for truth and honesty category.

I unfriended Lyle yesterday too. I've got bored of his abusive and paranoid ramblings. He has become the male equivalent of an old cat lady. He spends more time abusing people on facebook than a 13 year old with ADHD. He also never writes much about nutrition on there. The reason i added him


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## gummyp (Aug 16, 2011)

simonthepieman said:


> I unfriended Lyle yesterday too. I've got bored of his abusive and paranoid ramblings. He has become the male equivalent of an old cat lady. He spends more time abusing people on facebook than a 13 year old with ADHD. He also never writes much about nutrition on there. The reason i added him


I think @IGotTekkers here had a fight with him facebook before and Lyle went really childish


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## Bull Terrier (May 14, 2012)

simonthepieman said:


> not really Mutant, but i guess its a valid point.
> 
> For the record I do IF when cutting. It's a great tool to have the box.
> 
> ...


That was an interesting read.

But reading between the lines, are you essentially saying that there is flawed science in the IF approach which Berkhan chooses to ignore?

Regarding Lyle McDonald, I agree that he comes across as a bit of a d1ck quite frequently. However in his defence I'm pretty sure that he has mental health issues. I don't mean that as a personal attack on him but rather as a statement of fact. He suffers/has suffered from really bad depression. He is a big animal rights supporter and in my book that means that he can't be an entirely negative person.


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## simonthepieman (Jun 11, 2012)

Bull Terrier said:


> That was an interesting read.
> 
> But reading between the lines, are you essentially saying that there is flawed science in the IF approach which Berkhan chooses to ignore?
> 
> Regarding Lyle McDonald, I agree that he comes across as a bit of a d1ck quite frequently. However in his defence I'm pretty sure that he has mental health issues. I don't mean that as a personal attack on him but rather as a statement of fact. He suffers/has suffered from really bad depression. He is a big animal rights supporter and in my book that means that he can't be an entirely negative person.


There are tons of flaws in the studies that he posts. There are also loads of really good ones.

The only scientifically PROVEN fact about why IF works is calorie deficit. It helps control calories. Nothing more, nothing less.

I find it helps with energy levels too, but that is merely a widely reported anecdotal experience with scientific theory to back it up. In the same respect, i've seen quite a few similar studies that say the same thing about eating a big breakfast. Which has just as much validity. So you need to be objective.

But being objective doesn't include ignoring the articles that don't fit your argument and waving around the ones that do.


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## IGotTekkers (Jun 6, 2012)

gummyp said:


> I think @IGotTekkers here had a fight with him facebook before and Lyle went really childish


Yep, the kid is an absolute biatch. I beat him intellectually so many times in public he had to remove me as a friend. He is one of those that walks in like a big man, gets owned, and walks away calling for mum. I have no respect for the tosspot whatsoever even if I do agree with a lot of his nutritional smarts.


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## TommyFire (Jul 18, 2010)

I've been IF'ing for about 2 years now. Done it for so long because i just got used to eating that way. Used it for both cutting and bulking. In the past week i have gone back to eating 'normally'. To be honest IF made fvck all difference whatever my goals were.

I have come to my own conclusion that you can eat whenever and whatever you want as long as it matches what your daily kcals and macros are, fvcking around with timings and sh1t really doesnt matter.

Eat healthy, lift weights, live healthy, have fun and treat yourself now and again is the best 'lifestyle' and 'diet' you can do.


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## Bull Terrier (May 14, 2012)

Lyle McDonald really has quite a background though, being a former collaborator of the great Dan Duchaine. Years ago, before he started writing books, he trialled Duchaine's BodyOpus program and wrote a very detailed journal of his experiences. He proved himself very scientifically adept and apparently even Duchaine conceded that Lyle understood his BodyOpus better than he did himself.

It really is a shame that he has become so bitter and twisted.


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## simonthepieman (Jun 11, 2012)

TommyFire said:


> I've been IF'ing for about 2 years now. Done it for so long because i just got used to eating that way. Used it for both cutting and bulking. In the past week i have gone back to eating 'normally'. To be honest IF made fvck all difference whatever my goals were.
> 
> I have come to my own conclusion that you can eat whenever and whatever you want as long as it matches what your daily kcals and macros are, fvcking around with timings and sh1t really doesnt matter.
> 
> Eat healthy, lift weights, live healthy, have fun and treat yourself now and again is the best 'lifestyle' and 'diet' you can do.


So. Much. This. ^^^^^^

unfortunately too many people want a magic pill, 'super foods' or secret formula to convince them that they are being 100% committed or hardcore.

People spend more effort on convincing themselves that meal timing, keto or chicken n sweet potatoes or IF is the 'final missing piece of the puzzle" rather than reading up from an objective point of view and realizing it matters very little


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## Bull Terrier (May 14, 2012)

In my humble opinion one of the most common errors (at least to my mind) which many on here make is that they follow diets which are so damn bland that it's unbelievable. Apart from the sheer monotony, I'm sure that the lack of variety also leads to a lack of complete nutrition from micronutrients.

I realise that time is a constraint for most of us which may limit choices for the first few meals of the day until we're home from work. But at least once a day it's worth spending slightly longer in the kitchen to actually make something worth eating. So many nice great things to eat which are fully compatible with our bodybuilder diets.


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## simonthepieman (Jun 11, 2012)

Bull Terrier said:


> In my humble opinion one of the most common errors (at least to my mind) which many on here make is that they follow diets which are so damn bland that it's unbelievable. Apart from the sheer monotony, I'm sure that the lack of variety also leads to a lack of complete nutrition from micronutrients.
> 
> I realise that time is a constraint for most of us which may limit choices for the first few meals of the day until we're home from work. But at least once a day it's worth spending slightly longer in the kitchen to actually make something worth eating. So many nice great things to eat which are fully compatible with our bodybuilder diets.


There's that phrase again "bodybuilder diet" :lol:

i love cooking, i find it stress reliving and rewarding


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## Bull Terrier (May 14, 2012)

simonthepieman said:


> There's that phrase again "bodybuilder diet" :lol:
> 
> i love cooking, i find it stress reliving and rewarding


I agree - the terminology kind of sucks lol.


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## rectus (Jan 18, 2012)

Bull Terrier said:


> That was an interesting read.
> 
> But reading between the lines, are you essentially saying that there is flawed science in the IF approach which Berkhan chooses to ignore?


I think @Learney was subtly referring to that in this article: http://www.phillearney.com/nutrition/intermittent-fasting-a-discussion/



> Fasting and Intermittent fasting as a dietary method has been something we've seen an awful lot about as of late and if I'm honest some great data and studies to support it. Shame that the one site I've seen heavily promoting it as a method uses a LOT of VERY indirect studies that have a loose association with the subject. Infact I read a few of the references and they where downright bad for what was trying to be validated tbh. But anyways


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## rectus (Jan 18, 2012)

simonthepieman said:


> So. Much. This. ^^^^^^
> 
> unfortunately too many people want a magic pill, 'super foods' or secret formula to convince them that they are being 100% committed or hardcore.
> 
> People spend more effort on convincing themselves that meal timing, keto or chicken n sweet potatoes or IF is the 'final missing piece of the puzzle" rather than reading up from an objective point of view and realizing it matters very little


I do IF but I really see it a 'lifestyle diet' rather than something that's going to give you that edge in terms of body fat. It just is an easier way to live as you don't have to think about food all of the time (though I do haha) and having that 8hr window means I eat less and I feel much more in control. I don't imagine I'll do this forever but for the moment it works for me.


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## TommyFire (Jul 18, 2010)

rectus said:


> I do IF but I really see it a 'lifestyle diet' rather than something that's going to give you that edge in terms of body fat. It just is an easier way to live as you don't have to think about food all of the time (though I do haha) and having that 8hr window means I eat less and I feel much more in control. I don't imagine I'll do this forever but for the moment it works for me.


Mate I actually think about food alot less now i'm not IF'ing!!


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## Heath (Mar 3, 2011)

Think Alan Aragons articles are very good though, doesn't take things to extremes..


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## Jaff0 (Oct 3, 2008)

IGotTekkers said:


> Yep, the kid is an absolute biatch. I beat him intellectually so many times in public he had to remove me as a friend. He is one of those that walks in like a big man, gets owned, and walks away calling for mum. I have no respect for the tosspot whatsoever even if I do agree with a lot of his nutritional smarts.


Kid?

I used to read and post to misc.fitness.weights in the 90s, when I first heard about Lyle. Now true enough, he doesn't suffer fools, and maybe batters home his point, but I've not known him pursue an argument with fervour and be wrong.

And I struggle HUGELY with the concept that you beat him intellectually.


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## IGotTekkers (Jun 6, 2012)

Jaff0 said:


> Kid?
> 
> I used to read and post to misc.fitness.weights in the 90s, when I first heard about Lyle. Now true enough, he doesn't suffer fools, and maybe batters home his point, but I've not known him pursue an argument with fervour and be wrong.
> 
> And I struggle HUGELY with the concept that you beat him intellectually.


You can struggle with you like mate I couldn't really care lol.


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## TommyFire (Jul 18, 2010)

Jaff0 said:


> Kid?
> 
> I used to read and post to misc.fitness.weights in the 90s, when I first heard about Lyle. Now true enough, he doesn't suffer fools, and maybe batters home his point, but I've not known him pursue an argument with fervour and be wrong.
> 
> And I struggle HUGELY with the concept that you beat him intellectually.


Are you Lyle in disguise?


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## IGotTekkers (Jun 6, 2012)

TommyFire said:


> Are you Lyle in disguise?


Definitely not, lyles response would have been extremely childish, bringing in off topic low blows to try and make himself feel better about losing every argument he has ever had with me.


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## Jaff0 (Oct 3, 2008)

TommyFire said:


> Are you Lyle in disguise?


Would that it were...

No, no sirree bob. I can just tell the difference between shit and shinola.


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## Jaff0 (Oct 3, 2008)

IGotTekkers said:


> Definitely not, lyles response would have been extremely childish, bringing in off topic low blows to try and make himself feel better about losing every argument he has ever had with me.


Thing is, Lyle has been arguing with people for DECADES on the internet. Now true enough - I don't think anybody would suggest he doesn't some times take things further than many others would.

All the same, on an intellectual and knowledge basis, he goes toe-to-toe with some of the most clever in this field - so you'll forgive me, for a moment, if I'm skeptical that you sent him running.


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## TommyFire (Jul 18, 2010)

Jaff0 said:


> Would that it were...
> 
> No, no sirree bob. I can just tell the difference between shit and shinola.


Whatever, you got skinny arms and your a sh1t skater... :thumb:


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## Jaff0 (Oct 3, 2008)

TommyFire said:


> Whatever, you got skinny arms and your a sh1t skater... :thumb:


Acksherly I do skate - but not speed like Lyle does.

Plus, he, um lives in America - that's a good few thousand miles away. All the same, I'd rather be confused with, or assumed to be somebody - flawed or otherwise - that is something of a mercurial talent, than somebody who simply inhabits forums.

So thanks, and all.


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## IGotTekkers (Jun 6, 2012)

Jaff0 said:


> Thing is, Lyle has been arguing with people for DECADES on the internet. Now true enough - I don't think anybody would suggest he doesn't some times take things further than many others would.
> 
> All the same, on an intellectual and knowledge basis, he goes toe-to-toe with some of the most clever in this field - so you'll forgive me, for a moment, if I'm skeptical that you sent him running.


Who said we argued about nutritional science? Or is he widely versed and experienced in all aspects of life?


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## Jaff0 (Oct 3, 2008)

IGotTekkers said:


> Who said we argued about nutritional science? Or is he widely versed and experienced in all aspects of life?


OK, enthrall me with your acumen, on what, and exactly how did you intellectually better him?


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## IGotTekkers (Jun 6, 2012)

Jaff0 said:


> OK, enthrall me with your acumen, on what, and exactly how did you intellectually better him?


Who are you the lyle police? Haha. Why are you so concerned? .. hang on.. is that really you in there lyle? You know how I owned you like a little bitch dog infront of the whole of my Facebook.. do you really need to be reminded? :lol:


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## Jaff0 (Oct 3, 2008)

IGotTekkers said:


> Who are you the lyle police? Haha. Why are you so concerned? .. hang on.. is that really you in there lyle? You know how I owned you like a little bitch dog infront of the whole of my Facebook.. do you really need to be reminded? :lol:


<shrug> seems I'm no more concerned than you...

And as with all your claimed intellectual smarts I would have thought you get I'm not Lyle, but the only reason it wouldn't be no bandwagon too slow is because I'd blindly defend him?

Anyways, I didn't see this intellectual thrashing you claim to have given him, so let's move past your distractions and hand-waving, and let's see the details of how you cerebrally bested him, then.


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## IGotTekkers (Jun 6, 2012)

Jaff0 said:


> <shrug> seems I'm no more concerned than you...
> 
> And as with all your claimed intellectual smarts I would have thought you get I'm not Lyle, but the only reason it wouldn't be no bandwagon too slow is because I'd blindly defend him?
> 
> Anyways, I didn't see this intellectual thrashing you claim to have given him, so let's move past your distractions and hand-waving, and let's see the details of how you cerebrally bested him, then.


Mate it was months ago, I was heavy drug user for most of my childhood, I can't remember my own name half the time let alone what that cvnt said. And yes, despite that, I still owned him.


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## Jaff0 (Oct 3, 2008)

IGotTekkers said:


> Mate it was months ago, I was heavy drug user for most of my childhood, I can't remember my own name half the time let alone what that cvnt said. And yes, despite that, I still owned him.


Sure, whatever you say.

Pics or quotes or #thinkiflamedlylebuti'mreallyhisbitch


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## IGotTekkers (Jun 6, 2012)

Jaff0 said:


> Sure, whatever you say.
> 
> Pics or quotes or #thinkiflamedlylebuti'mreallyhisbitch


What is it with people on this forum this week? Simon skinny bollox's and they 500 posts strutting round calling everyone out. Someone get this lad a tuna, he looks hungry.


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## Jaff0 (Oct 3, 2008)

IGotTekkers said:


> What is it with people on this forum this week? Simon skinny bollox's and they 500 posts strutting round calling everyone out. Someone get this lad a tuna, he looks hungry.


'cos it's all about post counts and forum props?

Are you mad?

That's precisely why I'm not buying this whole keyboard-warrior-bested-famous-nutritional-author crap.

I was lifting weights in 85 - were you even born then?

Spare me the "lad" bit son, I bet I was lifting weights and hitting heavy bags probably before you were an itch in your daddy's pants.


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## IGotTekkers (Jun 6, 2012)

Jaff0 said:


> 'cos it's all about post counts and forum props?
> 
> Are you mad?
> 
> ...


That's a very compelling piece of literature there mate. So you'r just an old timer, that explains it. If you are that depressed and burnt out mate just get on the trt, you'll be HAPPY and worrying about your OWN life in no time.

I was called into this thread as my name was mentioned regarding the topic of lyle.. I merely reiterated what was previous public knowledge, you butted in calling me out.. see that wall over there mate ---> you seem like bright 'lad' fill in the rest.

Regards

Tekkers.


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

Nice hangbags guys, but don't you think it's time to put them down? Getting a bit tedious to read and my mouse pointer is twitching towards the 'close thread' option...


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## Jaff0 (Oct 3, 2008)

dtlv said:


> Nice hangbags guys, but don't you think it's time to put them down? Getting a bit tedious to read and my mouse pointer is twitching towards the 'close thread' option...


Maybe best but I just find it a bit tedious that no-marks can be so self-congratulatory that they think they've rousted somebody who has most definitely changed a lot in the sport of bodybuilding / nutrition / lifting in general, and all they've got to show for it is a supposedly impressive post count in an unfeasibly short time.

Sure, Lyle probably has as many haters as those that get the stuff he writes and robustly argues, but all the same - at least he's actually done something, produced something, improved something, and given something.


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## ki3rz (Sep 12, 2011)

I love leangains, but martin berkhan is so arrogant it's unreal. He has tantrums like a child 24.7 cos people are using his 'protocol' and claiming it as their own, but that's his fault cos he couldnt be assed to put the effort in and complete his book.


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## Heath (Mar 3, 2011)

Jaff0 said:


> 'cos it's all about post counts and forum props?
> 
> Are you mad?
> 
> ...


I bet your daddy is bigger than tekkers daddy?


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## Jaff0 (Oct 3, 2008)

MutantX said:


> I bet your daddy is bigger than tekkers daddy?


I guess we should all be thankful it's not one of those awkward coincidences, you know the "I am your father, Luke..." moments.


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