# Steroids are great for now, but what about later on?



## deeppurple (Mar 13, 2010)

I know this is steroid related but thought it would be good for general conversation.

As we all know, steroids aid people in many ways, in terms of ripping, growth, strength etc etc. But what about later on in life?

Do people think ''hell ill live it now i dont care about when im 65''? if you get what i mean? Do people think about heart attacks, heart murmers, organ failure, liver damage etc etc? But what about other stuff affecting your future welfare apart from the steroids. For example prepping for a BBing contest where you starve your body of what it needs for days before the show, no carbs, water etc etc? Do you believe later on in life this will catch up on you?

I personally think later on in life i'll be buggered....not just from the gear but mainly because strongman is brutal on the body. Me joints dont feel as dandy as they did when i was younger....

Just thought it would be nice to hear fellow forum users thoughts on this.


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## Gee-bol (Jul 2, 2009)

i think people are kidding themselves if they dont think that steroid use in there younger years is gonna effect them in later life,heart problems etc,you defo need to accept the risk before you get involved.


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## Graham Mc (Oct 15, 2009)

i think my body is going to die out befor i reach the 50's abit of a stupid childhood im only 19 and know im not going to last long with the amount of drugs/drink/steroids/pain i do for fun.


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## DNL (Sep 24, 2010)

Cross that bridge when I come to it, not going to live life like a saint. You could get hit by a bus tomorrow...


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## MarkFranco (Aug 26, 2010)

If you want to be good your going to have to make a sacrifice, and most of the time that is going to be at the expense of your health


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## SiPhil (Jun 16, 2010)

I didn't do my first cycle until 32 and don't expect to live as long as my family have done(Grandparents all great aunts/uncles all into 80's-90's). No history of cancer in my family so I fully expect steroids to be the cause of my death. Have HBP because of steroids and last week was into stroke range, although that was mainly due to clen, but I still class that along the same lines as roids.


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## MarkFranco (Aug 26, 2010)

Met a friend tonight who i ahvent seen in ages, we got talking about lifting and asked me about gear use, i told him and he laughed

I said what you on and he told me

800mg test400

300mg tri tren

700mg winny

600mg one rip

I was abit shocked to be fair, i didnt ask him if he knew about PCT, suprised me he was on so much and probably doesnt know what his BP levels are


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## deeppurple (Mar 13, 2010)

MarkFranco said:


> Met a friend tonight who i ahvent seen in ages, we got talking about lifting and asked me about gear use, i told him and he laughed
> 
> I said what you on and he told me
> 
> ...


that relevant to this thread,

you might as well discussed why you like pork sausages up your a*se....


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

deeppurple said:


> that relevant to this thread,
> 
> you might as well discussed why you like pork sausages up your a*se....


don't be a d1ck mate, his point is how much this guy was on and his health....

no one knows what will happen in the future but one thing is for certain your are safer using PEDs than binge drinking, being obese or smoking.....

i wont live forever but with sensible use and yearly health checks i intend to be as healthy as long as i can.....in my opinion it is stupid to use PEDs and not get checked up regular...


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## SiPhil (Jun 16, 2010)

Pscarb said:


> in my opinion it is stupid to use PEDs and not get checked up regular...


Kind of agree even though I'm one of the stupid ones..

What would you do if the doc gave you bad results and you had to stop steroids or even bodybuilding altogether? Would you stop?


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## Dazzaemm2k7 (Aug 10, 2010)

well things like heart attacks, liver damage, heart failure bla bla bla are all things that are inevitable and things that tbh you cant really avoid completely ! We are all human and can drop down dead tomorow so my view on it is that these things are inevitably going to happen to me one day in the future so i want to get a huge as possible, because skinny people and guys with no muscle have heart attacks all the time so not an issue that i concern myself with.


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## Milky (Nov 30, 2008)

I was told to go and get myself checked out due to family history of heart attacks, the doctor litterally said l cant tell you when your goona die, if l could l would be a rich man.

One issue l do have is l think l am suffering sexually now due to doing gear for the last ten yrs, however l think with other health issues how could you ever prove you wouldnt have had them if you hadnt taken gear ?


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## SiPhil (Jun 16, 2010)

Dazzaemm2k7 said:


> well things like heart attacks, liver damage, heart failure bla bla bla are all things that are inevitable and things that tbh you cant really avoid completely ! We are all human and can drop down dead tomorow so my view on it is that these things are inevitably going to happen to me one day in the future so i want to get a huge as possible, because skinny people and guys with no muscle have heart attacks all the time so not an issue that i concern myself with.


Let's just assume everyone has no heart defects etc and are not going to drop dead from heart failure until their 70's or beyond. Some kind of organ failure or illness is going to kill you eventually, but 10 years from now or another 40+?

Most of us are taking the risk knowing it could cause premature death and are fine with it, but when the time comes will you have regrets? What will people think when there's a sudden pain in the chest, you go light headed and just drop. I'm sh1t scared of death but still taking these risks with my health.

I'd say we're all idiots. But strong and muscular idiots!


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## SiPhil (Jun 16, 2010)

gemilky69 said:


> I was told to go and get myself checked out due to family history of heart attacks, the doctor litterally said l cant tell you when your goona die, if l could l would be a rich man.
> 
> One issue l do have is l think l am suffering sexually now due to doing gear for the last ten yrs, however l think with other health issues how could you ever prove you wouldnt have had them if you hadnt taken gear ?


Are you on gear now?


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## pecman (May 11, 2008)

I was on and off for some time, I used to get high blood pressure on winni that i would always get nosebleeds during workouts..

I did the comp bit 5 years ago and that put me in hospital twice so knocked that on the head..

I'm 35 now and really cannot see all the point in it just for a plastic trophy, Although i do take my hat off to the people who give it a crack and do well as it is insanely hard..

I ended up with a messed up liver and blood results so came right down and had a 2 year lay off of gear.

I was obssessed through my 20's but now i have more in my life but i still train hard etc but now i only do 1 mild course a year just to shape up for the summer, I can hold roughly 17st 10 all year round so am very happy and some times only train 2 times a week..

I now do cardio as often as possible..

I lost a close friend recently who never came off winni for years and was told the hi bp etc took his life.. I hear time and time again of big users dieng and deep down we know gear was a big trigger but people still play it down..

I want to see my kid grow up so take very sensible doses and when i hit 40 i will give up gear for good..

If taken sensibly and constant blood work done then it can be great, But sadly as we all know this is never the case in most people..

I have never regretted it yet and i hope it don't bite me in the ass!!

Sorry about the long post :rockon:


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## Guest (Oct 13, 2010)

I use, have low blood pressure, low cholesterol, do 2-3 hours of MMA related cardio each day, weights 5 times a week. eat no processed foods, little dairy, little sugar or chemicals.

I supplement with fish oil, vitamins, eat a varied healthy diet, bcaas etc.

DO i think steroids affect my health? possibly, but im still healthier than 95% of the population and so don't think my lifespan will be any shorter than theirs, i'd be surprised if i don't live longer than average...also I have never used over 600mg/wk total ...

if i dont live longer than my fat diabetic housemate who drinks and smokes i'll be very very fockin ****ed off


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## Uriel (Oct 14, 2008)

It's all about the risk and risk management.

I didn't really do gear until I was 40 - I just enjoyed my natty training and I'll probably only do trt doses and HGH from 50 so this is a 10 year play window.

When I can no longer train, fuk and ride a sports bike, I'll only have one thing to live for - my children, when they don't need me anymore I'll limp off and check out happlily


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## Guest (Oct 13, 2010)

Remember size is related ot life span anyway, big guys don't live as long whether they're natural or not.


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## skellan (Nov 15, 2009)

I would love to know who was doing the most damage to themselves out of myself and one of my best mates during my next blast.

ME: 750mg sust/ 200mg deca for 10 weeks. Drink small amount of alcohol for 2 weeks out of every month. Train regularly including lots of cardio at high output. Minimum 20 mins session every day

MATE: Alcoholic, consumes approx 5L of cheap cider every day, smokes, does zero exercise, eats absolute sh1te (when he DOES eat). And smokes dope occasionally.

Although he is older than me and looks a bit rough round the edges he gets his bloods done regularly and shows very minimal liver damage, I would love to know just how much more damage he is doing by comparison.

My view would be that although I "think" I`m putting my body through a lot, in reality I probably aren`t!!


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

SiPhil said:


> Kind of agree even though I'm one of the stupid ones..
> 
> What would you do if the doc gave you bad results and you had to stop steroids or even bodybuilding altogether? Would you stop?


then i would stop...last year i went and got a full health screen and it highlighted i had both protein and a little amount of blood in my urine, i was referred and they did a load of test once they saw my GFR levels(calculation to measure kidney function) the specialist was all doom and gloom her exact words where "your steroid use has severely messed up your kidneys" i immediately stopped all drugs i was using....over the next 9months they performed loads of tests to measure kidney function each time the results where normal so they carried out a biopsy as they where certain this would show that my kidneys would be scarred, shrivelled and damaged.....after a month of waiting for the results i went to see the specialist.

when i asked how bad the damage was she said "the protein and blood in your urine was caused by your blood vessels being artificially enlarged through a spike in BP" she admitted that i did not have high BP but this spike was the cause of the issue......she then went on to tell me that there was no scarring or damage to my kidneys what so ever in fact she was surprised how healthy they where.

i am not saying there are no risks to using PEDs because there is but not everyone drops dead or has life threatening problems because of steroids the risk is lowered if you get checked up properly.......

many who slate bodybuilding will think nothing of drinking 10-15 pints on a night out or will smoke 20 **** a day.....



ALR said:


> Remember size is related ot life span anyway, big guys don't live as long whether they're natural or not.


what do you count as Big?


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

skellan said:


> I would love to know who was doing the most damage to themselves out of myself and one of my best mates during my next blast.
> 
> ME: 750mg sust/ 200mg deca for 10 weeks. Drink small amount of alcohol for 2 weeks out of every month. Train regularly including lots of cardio at high output. Minimum 20 mins session every day
> 
> ...


why don you get your bloods done?


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## SiPhil (Jun 16, 2010)

skellan said:


> I would love to know who was doing the most damage to themselves out of myself and one of my best mates during my next blast.


Of course, your mate is killing himself. If he's lucky and has the genes for it he'll avoid some of the illnesses which could claim other people and may outlive you. Some people are lucky and can smoke their entire lives and never get cancer, while a 20 year old can die from throat cancer.

One of the above points is right too. Muscle mass might as well be fat when it comes to strain on the heart.

The only issue I have thought about with steroid use is the supposed accumulation of calcium in the heart. That's not good. The rest I'd say could be controlled, such as BP, liver values etc. Once the heart is damaged you're in trouble later in life.


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## Mars (Aug 25, 2007)

deeppurple said:


> I know this is steroid related but thought it would be good for general conversation.
> 
> As we all know, steroids aid people in many ways, in terms of ripping, growth, strength etc etc. But what about later on in life?
> 
> ...


You don't need to be a steroid user to suffer an early demise from any of these conditions.

Heart disease is the biggest killer in the western world but it's causes are related to smoking, drinking, a poor diet and a lack of excerise, do these ppl consider the long term effects of their crap lifestyle?


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## SD (Sep 3, 2004)

There are many aspects of a Bbing lifestyle that can be considered unhealthy, sure the arguement always is 'Well I don't smoke, drink or eat junk food' and its an ok one but there is a counter arguement to that 'Well if you didnt smoke, drink, eat junk food OR take AAS, you may live longer and healthier' lol.

AAS have their risks sure, there is a risk benefit ratio which every individual needs to weigh up for themselves. Added to that a high protein diet can take its toll on the skeleton and all the heavy lifting that can put tremendous strain on your joints, its not a healthy lifestyle for everyone.

I know threads like this are unpopular, god forbid anyone that tries to put down everyones favourite physique enhancing drug but it bears reminding folk that its not just like taking Aspirin.

For the future I worry about my fertility mainly, I dont have any kids and would be devastated now if I couldn't. I know from previous tests that my sperm count is very low and that was 12 months after taking any AAS. Children aren't something I was contemplating when I started but now it plays on my mind a lot, especially after reading Big Vin's thread. On a side note, my bloods always came back with some Liver damage, again 12 months post PCT too, so it takes a lot longer to recover than people think.

SD


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## Smitch (Dec 29, 2008)

Graham Mc said:


> i think my body is going to die out befor i reach the 50's abit of a stupid childhood im only 19 and know im not going to last long with the amount of drugs/drink/steroids/pain i do for fun.


You'd be surprised.

Can't really comment on the steroids as i've only dabbled but i've been caning rec's for over 20 years and i'm alright. :thumbup1:

And the recs are p1ss week nowadays anyway so i'm sure you'll be fine. :lol:


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## SD (Sep 3, 2004)

skellan said:


> I would love to know who was doing the most damage to themselves out of myself and one of my best mates during my next blast.
> 
> ME: 750mg sust/ 200mg deca for 10 weeks. Drink small amount of alcohol for 2 weeks out of every month. Train regularly including lots of cardio at high output. Minimum 20 mins session every day
> 
> ...


So your arguement for thinking your not putting your body through a lot is, well my mates doing worse to his? lol :lol:

Each to their own buddy. At least when he gives up drinking his liver may recover, will your HPTA or fertility?

Not bashing you mate, just playing devils advocate.

SD


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## Smitch (Dec 29, 2008)

SD, just out of interest.

I'm getting a fasted blood test done tomorrow, what should i ask them to check for? I've only done a couple of courses of orals.

They're checking mainly for cholesterol levels as my dads was a bit high recently but they'd said they'd do some other checks too....


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## SD (Sep 3, 2004)

ALR said:


> Remember size is related ot life span anyway, big guys don't live as long whether they're natural or not.


Aha, I know what your gettign at, that is related to calories as the more calories you eat and burn in the day the more oxidation your body undergoes and hence faster aging. There are soem people out there who deliberately eat sub optimal calories in a deliberate attempt to slow there metabolism and oxidisation in order to extend there lives. They do this based on studies that showed smaller women, who naturally ate less calories, lived longer.

SD


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## BB_999 (Feb 20, 2006)

I take the view that my lifestyle i.e. Only drinking about 5 times per year, never smoked, don't do reccy drugs, regular exercise and eating a healthy diet but I DO do 1-2 mild cycles per year, and I intend to stay on GH indefinitely for now. This must be healthier than binge drinking every weekend, smoking every day, eating fast/junk food and not exercising at all.

I have never had blood work done except for my cholesterol once which came back perfect 3 months post cycle. I know I should get it done regularly and if it was easier to get it done privately I would, I actually want to get it done but there is no where (that I know of) local to me that does it.


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

SD said:


> There are many aspects of a Bbing lifestyle that can be considered unhealthy, sure the arguement always is 'Well I don't smoke, drink or eat junk food' and its an ok one but there is a counter arguement to that 'Well if you didnt smoke, drink, eat junk food OR take AAS, you may live longer and healthier' lol.
> 
> AAS have their risks sure, there is a risk benefit ratio which every individual needs to weigh up for themselves. Added to that a high protein diet can take its toll on the skeleton and all the heavy lifting that can put tremendous strain on your joints, its not a healthy lifestyle for everyone.
> 
> ...


it is not about not liking the fact people put down bodybuilding and the lifestyle SD but you seem to dismiss the health risks with smoking, being obese and drinking.....the most dangerous attitude to have is that it would never happen to you.....

you say you are concerned about your fertility so why don't you stop all PEDs and get it sorted?

no one is saying that the Bodybuilding lifestyle is without risks but you place that health risk in the big picture and it certainly is not at the top....

you mention Aspirin:

(1996 - NSAIDS) "Each year, use of NSAIDs (Non-Steroidal Anti-Inflammatory Drugs) accounts for an estimated 7,600 deaths and 76,000 hospitalizations in the United States." (NSAIDs include aspirin, ibuprofen, naproxen, diclofenac, ketoprofen, and tiaprofenic acid.)

there are risks with everything but who would go get a check up for using aspirin?

as i have said the most stupid thing to do is realise that there are risks and do nothing to reduce the risks or catch them early so to prevent them......


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## SD (Sep 3, 2004)

Smitch said:


> SD, just out of interest.
> 
> I'm getting a fasted blood test done tomorrow, what should i ask them to check for? I've only done a couple of courses of orals.
> 
> They're checking mainly for cholesterol levels as my dads was a bit high recently but they'd said they'd do some other checks too....


FBC (full blood count)

U&E (Urea and Electrlytes/Kidney function)

LFT (liver function Test)

Fasting Cholesterol

Hormone Screen (FSH, LH, test, SHBG and estriadol. Must have all five at least!)

Thats your basics and covers most things imho.

SD


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## 6083 (Jun 21, 2007)

I think this question is too generic I think AAS can be used sensibly which i dont see very often and they can be ab/used which is all too common.

I think with moderate use AAS and the bodybuilding lifestyle - exercise (aerobic and anerobic), healthy eating will give you much more chance of living a full lifespan than others. Also this 'full' lifespan will be an active healthy lifespan rather than a lifespan afflicted by some form of dependancy on others.

As you age past your 30`s, your natural hormone production drops sharply, this has been targeted by medicine now (especially in the states) and people use HRT (hormone replacment therapy) (test/growth) and look far better into old age and live more productivly.

I learned my lesson years ago about abusing AAS, i have not used for almost 2 years now, but in future will always use moderatly. Can you say that of yourself?

People that you hear of dying from AAS use, did they abuse?


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

Smitch said:


> SD, just out of interest.
> 
> I'm getting a fasted blood test done tomorrow, what should i ask them to check for? I've only done a couple of courses of orals.
> 
> They're checking mainly for cholesterol levels as my dads was a bit high recently but they'd said they'd do some other checks too....


LFT

ALT

GFR

Creatinine

Urea

Chol

Test

TSH

would be my main ones


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## Smitch (Dec 29, 2008)

Cheers guys. :thumbup1:


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## SD (Sep 3, 2004)

Pscarb said:


> it is not about not liking the fact people put down bodybuilding and the lifestyle SD but you seem to dismiss the health risks with smoking, being obese and drinking.....the most dangerous attitude to have is that it would never happen to you.....
> 
> Not dismissing them at all, only as an excuse for other drug use. I think its silly to say 'My mate sokes 40 a day and drinks 10 pints, so its ok for me to take AAS as at least I am not being as stupid as him?'. I would never dismiss the dangers of smoking, I ised to smoke years ago and I see the negative effects of smoking every day in my patients.
> 
> ...


Agreed :thumb:

Regards

SD


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## SD (Sep 3, 2004)

Pscarb said:


> LFT
> 
> ALT
> 
> ...


Paul's right, these are contained within the tests I gave you mate, with the exception of TSH,(thyroid stimulating hormone) which is a good idea too for sure, havent tested for GFR (Glomeral/Kidney Filtration Rate)before but it looks like a good idea too :thumbup1:

SD


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

When I look at a bodybuilding lifestyle, the thing that makes me question the long term healthiness of it the most and for most people is diet... PEDs can contribute to and cause problems for sure, but the diets followed by bodybuilders involving regular overfeeding, extremely high levels of protein, and often macro and nutrient unbalanced eating I see as more likely to cause long term problems.


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

SD said:


> Agreed :thumb:
> 
> Regards
> 
> SD


i think we where talking about the same thing mate just putting it differently.... :thumbup1:



SD said:


> Paul's right, these are contained within the tests I gave you mate, with the exception of TSH,(thyroid stimulating hormone) which is a good idea too for sure, havent tested for GFR (Glomeral/Kidney Filtration Rate)before but it looks like a good idea too :thumbup1:
> 
> SD


GFR is what the Docs will use to gauge kidney function although it is based on normal people, it is worked out using the creatinine and urea levels age and race....the problem i see with this calculation is that training (natural or not) creates high creatinine levels as it is a waste product of muscle this in its self gives a false reading....for example i had mine done before my current prep and the first one my GFR was 165(norm high is 120) i tried to explain this to the Doc but he was not convinced a week later we redid the tests but this time they where done on a monday morning so i have not trained since the friday before this time my levels where 135....funny enough the Doc had little to say 



Dtlv74 said:


> When I look at a bodybuilding lifestyle, the thing that makes me question the long term healthiness of it the most and for most people is diet... PEDs can contribute to and cause problems for sure, but the diets followed by bodybuilders involving regular overfeeding, extremely high levels of protein, and often macro and nutrient unbalanced eating I see as more likely to cause long term problems.


the trouble i have with this statement is about overfeeding and high levels of protein? what is considered over eating? what is considered normal protein levels? you cannot compare either to an individual who does not train or do any sport......i eat 3500cals ish in the off season per day this is much less than many of my friends who don't train so how is this over eating?

we have to be careful here as many are paining everyone with the same brush....there are guys in my old gym that eat anything they see and use a shed loads of gear yet look like water balloons but in the same gym there are guys who are more detailed with there diet don't get fat but yet eat the same amount of cals??


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## SD (Sep 3, 2004)

Quality over quantity with calories any day, the calorie is not king or eating 3500cals of sugar would yeild the same effects as 3500cals of oats and we all know they wont! On an energy only perspective they are the same but the effects they will have on your hormones are very different. Bbers generally pay a lot of attention to their diet, at least here most do I think :confused1: , that at least has to be one saving grace of the lifestyle?

SD


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## bigsteve1974 (Jun 4, 2008)

Pscarb said:


> don't be a d1ck mate, his point is how much this guy was on and his health....
> 
> no one knows what will happen in the future but one thing is for certain your are safer using PEDs than binge drinking, being obese or smoking.....
> 
> i wont live forever but with sensible use and yearly health checks i intend to be as healthy as long as i can.....in my opinion it is stupid to use PEDs and not get checked up regular...


couldnt agree more as long as you get regular checks... and you DONT ABUSE.then you sould be fine....

Steve


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## bigsteve1974 (Jun 4, 2008)

bigsteve1974 said:


> couldnt agree more as long as you get regular checks... and you DONT ABUSE.then you sould be fine....
> 
> Steve


how many people are just damn Ignorant to this sort of stuff.... i personally get checked yearly also you also need to know what action to take if something is wrong... dont foget Normal Gp's hardly no SWEET F.A. when it coms to anabolics.... every gp i have seen is shocked when you say what you use....

I went into the needle exchange last week and was asked by the steroid councillor for ADVICE.?

steve


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## PHMG (Jun 15, 2010)

ALR said:


> I use, have low blood pressure, low cholesterol, do 2-3 hours of MMA related cardio each day, weights 5 times a week. eat no processed foods, little dairy, little sugar or chemicals.
> 
> I supplement with fish oil, vitamins, eat a varied healthy diet, bcaas etc.
> 
> ...


Well, no you wont if your dead lol.


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

Pscarb said:


> the trouble i have with this statement is about overfeeding and high levels of protein? what is considered over eating? what is considered normal protein levels? you cannot compare either to an individual who does not train or do any sport......i eat 3500cals ish in the off season per day this is much less than many of my friends who don't train so how is this over eating?


The overfeeding comment comes from the studies on healthy diets around the world looking which populations live longest and have lowest incidences of metabolic disease, CV disease and cancers. The two main things in common, particularly in relation to long life span, are low-moderate protein intake (particularly lower animal protein), and lower than average calorie intake/ceasing eating before you have a full stomach.

I think that us westerners as a whole eat an avergae diet that's not great anyway, but bodybuilding diets are often (not always but in the main) at the extreme end of the high protein/high calorie scale. Doesn't mean bodybuilders are guranteed to die young and get ill, just statistically when their diets are compared to the averages they are more likely to.

The high protein comment again comes from similar studies... that diets high in animal protein, and also low in carbs, are strongly linked with late life osteoporosis. Resistance trainnig and regular heavy load bearing may well offset this issue to a point, but its still a factor that exists.

On the flip side, as you say, a diet that's unhealthy for a non vigorously exercising person may not be so bad for someone who does workout a lot... I agree, but all food that you process causes oxidative stress (one of the main things that ages you), and someone who eats 4000kcals a day and burns it all will experience more oxidative stress than someone who eats 3000kcals a day and burns it all. That's just a fact.

Am not saying exercise and eating to compensate for it is bad, that would be a silly comment, but bodybuilders often eat beyond their caloric need for the exercise they do because they are also looking to gain a totally unnatural level of muscle mass... other athletes are less likely to do this.

Is a big subject when you start looking at all the factors, and would easily go off topic... and as you say not everyone does things the same way... so I'll shut up now as this is a good thread, and don't want to turn it into another diet discussion


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

your input is as valid as anyone elses....and diet, training has an impact on health as much as drugs shame many dont see this.....

the study you mention about overfeeding was it carried out on trained individuals or normal sedetry people as this has an impact on the results....as like i say what is counted as over eating.....

for example....i eat 6-8 meals a day be this off season or pre-comp yet my calories per meal would be less than half of a typical evening meal for most "Normal" people.

i do agree force feeding to gain size no matter the type of size is stupid and counter productive to both muscle gain and health but again who dictates what is force feeding or over eating?


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## BillC (Jun 11, 2009)

Have read that a lot of people with heart disease have raised homocystiene levels and one of the side effects of steroids is a sharp rise in homocycteine levels. Although there as yet haven't been conclusive studies to prove lowering homocysteine levels will lower risk of heart disease, I like Tesco's line ~"every little helps" I take homocysteine modualtors - basically a pre-mix of mainly B vitamins looking at the label, under recommendation from a veteran. I also take serapeptase enzyme which helps to keep arteries from plaquing up and lots of other voodoo. It also helps repair inflamation from damaged tissue in injurys albeit midly.

I think all you can do is acknowlege there are risks and do your best to minimise them. Don't be an Ostitch and bury head in the sand behind "my mates drinks 5 nights a week" and "there's no proof".


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## SD (Sep 3, 2004)

Pscarb said:


> your input is as valid as anyone elses....and diet, training has an impact on health as much as drugs shame many dont see this.....
> 
> the study you mention about overfeeding was it carried out on trained individuals or normal sedetry people as this has an impact on the results....as like i say what is counted as over eating.....
> 
> ...


I think this short article may help explain what DTLV and I were talking about:

Proponents of Calorie Restriction (or CR) typically eat 30-40% fewer calories than it would take to maintain what is generally considered to be a "healthy" weight. They generally lose quite a bit of weight before stabilizing at a much lower body weight. The motivation for such extreme deprivation? Animal studies in everything from fruit flies to primates indicate that CR can extend the maximum lifespan of the animal in question as much as 20 or 25%. There are no human studies verifying that CR will have the same effect on humans, but short-term studies show that CR does reduce biomarkers for aging along with lowering the risk of chronic diseases like heart disease and diabetes. For many, that's evidence enough.

CR is a difficult lifestyle. Many who practice it admit to dealing with constant hunger and obsession with food. In a society where every social situation and celebration seems to focus on food, the CR lifestyle can be isolating. It's also time-consuming. When you are eating very few calories, it becomes difficult to ensure adequate intake of protein, essential fatty acids, and vitamins and minerals. There is literally no room for empty calories and meticulous meal planning and tracking becomes a necessity. (Nutrition Data has a big following in the CR community because our dietary analysis tools make it easier to practice Calorie Restriction with Optimal Nutrition, or CRON.)

Whatever its potential benefits, CR is obviously too austere for the vast majority of the (mostly overweight) population. And, predictably, the biotech companies are racing to develop drugs that will mimic the beneficial effects of CR without the deprivation. But in the meantime, CR is attracting more and more baby-boomers determined to forestall the march of time.



BillC said:


> Have read that a lot of people with heart disease have raised homocystiene levels and one of the side effects of steroids is a sharp rise in homocycteine levels. Although there as yet haven't been conclusive studies to prove lowering homocysteine levels will lower risk of heart disease, I like Tesco's line ~"every little helps" I take homocysteine modualtors - basically a pre-mix of mainly B vitamins looking at the label, under recommendation from a veteran. I also take serapeptase enzyme which helps to keep arteries from plaquing up and lots of other voodoo. It also helps repair inflamation from damaged tissue in injurys albeit midly.
> 
> I think all you can do is acknowlege there are risks and do your best to minimise them. Don't be an Ostitch and bury head in the sand behind "my mates drinks 5 nights a week" and "there's no proof".


Good post mate :thumb: , homocystiene is said to be a far more accurate indicator of your likelihood to develop most of the top diseases of the heart and arteries. Everyone here should be taking a high dose B-Complex, preferably with TMG and Zinc.

SD


----------



## SD (Sep 3, 2004)

Not advocating calories restriction btw, just putting it forward as its the complete opposite to what most of us do.

SD


----------



## Raptor (Feb 16, 2010)

This worries me tbh, any check ups have shown me to be fine but you never know!


----------



## Greyphantom (Oct 23, 2003)

SD said:


> Aha, I know what your gettign at, that is related to calories as the more calories you eat and burn in the day the more oxidation your body undergoes and hence faster aging. There are soem people out there who deliberately eat sub optimal calories in a deliberate attempt to slow there metabolism and oxidisation in order to extend there lives. They do this based on studies that showed smaller women, who naturally ate less calories, lived longer.
> 
> SD


but wouldnt it all be relative... ie a smaller person only needs x amount of calories but a bigger persone would need more thus the oxidation etc would also be relative... ie even though there is more oxidation in a bigger person would it be exponentially more than a smaller person... I have trouble when we use one blanket to cover all the types of people... I had a good discussion with a cardio nurse re dosage of meds how it should be based on a persons actual size/weight not some blanket dose that might work very well on a smaller person but not well at all on a larger person... does this make sense?

Paul already covered the aspirin thing... nothing is "safe" really... even too much water will kill you...


----------



## Greyphantom (Oct 23, 2003)

PS... at this stage of my life not worried at all... have kids, done a bunch of stuff but want to be big and strong now... plus last few checks have shown liver and kidney functions ok, bp is good and heart is strong *cough cough hack*... yep picture of health me...


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## BillC (Jun 11, 2009)

the best repairer of your body is your body, so come off regularly and give it a long rest every now and again is the best way.

I'm lucky in that from what I've seen so far, I have few sides to AAs use. I do get a touch of gyno and bad spots but BP stays low, cholesterol barely changes and recover quite readily. Whether this will translate into not affecting my long term health I do not know. It flaming should seeing as my gains are pants so far :lol: so surely the damage will be minor too.


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## Prodiver (Nov 14, 2008)

High BP - hypertension - is certainly a potential hazard of AAS use.

According to various medical texts, persistent hypertension is one of the risk factors for stroke, myocardial infarction, heart failure and arterial aneurysm, and is a leading cause of chronic kidney failure. Moderate elevation of arterial blood pressure leads to shortened life expectancy.

But, of course, nowadays you can easily monitor your own BP and take steps to keep it under control.

More serious, I believe, is a prolonged high hematocrit - red blood cell count.

Sooner or later all AAS tend to increase hematocrit, some like Oxys and especially Boldenone are noted for it.

A high hematocrit increases the risk of blood clots resulting in strokes or heart attacks. I believe these are more common in bodybuilders than is admitted.

A single aspirin a day while on cycle and for some weeks after may guard against clotting, but hematocrit should be one of bodybuilders' regular blood tests.

Signs of a critically high hematocrit are shortness of breath and dizzyness.

Research is beginning to show that a low cholesterol level is more dangerous than a high one, that cardiovascular disease is overwhelmingly related to earlier chronically high cortisol levels caused by real stress rather than diet, and that higher ratios of refined carbohydrates increase mortality far more than higher ratios of fat and protein.


----------



## LittleChris (Jan 17, 2009)

Would you ever advocate bleeding yourself to reduce RBC Prodriver? Like the Mongols bleed their horses...


----------



## Musashi (Oct 21, 2009)

LittleChris said:


> Would you ever advocate bleeding yourself to reduce RBC Prodriver? Like the Mongols bleed their horses...


I've read of guys on trt who have this done when RBC gets into the higher levels.

It's important to remember that good old Test can lead to 'sticky blood' as well.


----------



## SD (Sep 3, 2004)

Greyphantom said:


> but wouldnt it all be relative... ie a smaller person only needs x amount of calories but a bigger persone would need more thus the oxidation etc would also be relative... ie even though there is more oxidation in a bigger person would it be exponentially more than a smaller person... I have trouble when we use one blanket to cover all the types of people... I had a good discussion with a cardio nurse re dosage of meds how it should be based on a persons actual size/weight not some blanket dose that might work very well on a smaller person but not well at all on a larger person... does this make sense?
> 
> Paul already covered the aspirin thing... nothing is "safe" really... even too much water will kill you...


Its not a blanket philosophy, the guide is to take 30-40% less calories than you need for maintenance to reduce oxidative stress, what is defined as maintenance can be calculated individually. Considering we all mostly eat 30-40% MORE than maintenance, the inverse could be true also and eventually take its toll? Added to the AAS use it has the potential for a lifestyle which could be considered 'unhealthy' with potentially life threatening consequences.

Nothing is 100% safe but I would not use that as an excuse to do something I considered too great a 'risk'. Said it before here its a case of weighing Risk vs Benefit, that choice in entirely individual but everyone here is adviceed regularly to reduce risk by eating balanced diets, supplementing with vitmains/minerals, tkaing time off, doing a PCT etc

SD


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

Pscarb said:


> your input is as valid as anyone elses....and diet, training has an impact on health as much as drugs shame many dont see this.....
> 
> the study you mention about overfeeding was it carried out on trained individuals or normal sedetry people as this has an impact on the results....as like i say what is counted as over eating.....
> 
> ...


You are right, the study was not on exercisers it was comparing populations of people, so yeah, within the total result there will definitely be individuals that buck the trend, and no doubt at all exercise, activity levels, and even exercise type plays a part in individual risk factors... totally agree.

In relation to the CR lifestlye SD mentions, there's this summary here (http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/abstract/137/4/1078?maxtoshow=&hits=10&RESULTFORMAT=&fulltext=mortality+caloric+intake&searchid=1&FIRSTINDEX=0&resourcetype=HWCIT) that suggests that achieving caloric deficit through eating a lot but also exercising a lot does not have the same degree of life prolonging effect as less activity and lower caloric intake:



> Caloric restriction (CR) is the only experimental nongenetic paradigm known to increase lifespan. It has broad applicability and extends the life of most species through a retardation of aging.....Exercise and cold exposure induce similar energy deficits, but animals respond to these energy deficits in different ways that have a minor impact on lifespan.


In respect of that though, am not at all saying people should stop exercising and eat feck all, or making any conclusions about how each individual should behave... too many individual genetic and lifestlye factors as well as limitations on scientific knowledge on the subject (plus my own much more limited understanding)...was just simply pointing out a trend when looking at the relationship between earlier mortality and caloric intake, and that bodybuilders tend to eat high total calories, often enough to put them in the obesity category if they didn't exercise at the same time.

As you rightly point out though there are no direct studies of bodybuilders, so there may well be something untested typical to bodybuilders that doesn't make this kind of concern an especially valid one. I think its always important to be aware of trends, but equally important not to generalise them too much to very 'untypical' behaving populations like most of us freaks on here :lol:

In terms of what constitutes overfeeding, again agree that there's no magic number... the biggest issue with calories is obviously whether you induce too much fat gain, but it does seem that a secondary issue in relation to mortality is total calorie intake independent of calories burned and bodyfat percentage.

Something you mention though - eating smaller meals but more frequently, is to my understaning associated with lowering several health risk factors. There are arguments both for and against bodybuilders splitting their intake into smaller feeds under different conditions, and which might be more anabolic or more anticatabolic, but certainly in non exercising populations not overloading the system with huge boluses of food and splitting it up seems generally the more healthy option, provided total food intake isn't excessive of course.


----------



## Prodiver (Nov 14, 2008)

LittleChris said:


> Would you ever advocate bleeding yourself to reduce RBC Prodriver? Like the Mongols bleed their horses...





OldMan said:


> I've read of guys on trt who have this done when RBC gets into the higher levels.


I certainly wouldn't advocate self-bleeding - to reduce hematocrit by bleeding perhaps as much as a litre has to be removed, which can become critical. Best get medical advice...


----------



## Greyphantom (Oct 23, 2003)

SD said:


> Its not a blanket philosophy, the guide is to take 30-40% less calories than you need for maintenance to reduce oxidative stress, what is defined as maintenance can be calculated individually. Considering we all mostly eat 30-40% MORE than maintenance, the inverse could be true also and eventually take its toll? Added to the AAS use it has the potential for a lifestyle which could be considered 'unhealthy' with potentially life threatening consequences.
> 
> Nothing is 100% safe but I would not use that as an excuse to do something I considered too great a 'risk'. Said it before here its a case of weighing Risk vs Benefit, that choice in entirely individual but everyone here is adviceed regularly to reduce risk by eating balanced diets, supplementing with vitmains/minerals, tkaing time off, doing a PCT etc
> 
> SD


Thanks for the clarification SD... much appreciated...


----------



## stow (Jun 5, 2007)

pecman said:


> I was on and off for some time, I used to get high blood pressure on winni that i would always get nosebleeds during workouts..
> 
> I did the comp bit 5 years ago and that put me in hospital twice so knocked that on the head..
> 
> ...


V V GOOD POST


----------



## stow (Jun 5, 2007)

Dtlv74 said:


> You are right, the study was not on exercisers it was comparing populations of people, so yeah, within the total result there will definitely be individuals that buck the trend, and no doubt at all exercise, activity levels, and even exercise type plays a part in individual risk factors... totally agree.
> 
> In relation to the CR lifestlye SD mentions, there's this summary here (http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/abstract/137/4/1078?maxtoshow=&hits=10&RESULTFORMAT=&fulltext=mortality+caloric+intake&searchid=1&FIRSTINDEX=0&resourcetype=HWCIT) that suggests that achieving caloric deficit through eating a lot but also exercising a lot does not have the same degree of life prolonging effect as less activity and lower caloric intake:
> 
> ...


On this subject, I firmly believe that keeping your total cals low through careful control of carbs more than proteins and fats, is beneficial.

But clearly your sat fats have to be regulated to reduce the cardiovascular risk.

Stow


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## Prodiver (Nov 14, 2008)

stow said:


> On this subject, I firmly believe that keeping your total cals low through careful control of carbs more than proteins and fats, is beneficial.
> 
> But clearly your sat fats have to be regulated to reduce the cardiovascular risk.
> 
> Stow


There's no evidence that saturated fats increase CV risk...


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## Uriel (Oct 14, 2008)

anyway who gives a **** about "Later on" what are you? a big bad dude who roids or a ****ing girl guide who frets and worries and has "Blöood work" done.

Live fast and die young xx


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## Prodiver (Nov 14, 2008)

Uriel said:


> anyway who gives a **** about "Later on" what are you? a big bad dude who roids or a ****ing girl guide who frets and worries and has "Blöood work" done.
> 
> Live fast and die young xx


What if AAS use caused you a bad stroke and you became a huge burden for years to your partner and kids?


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## mal (Dec 31, 2009)

Giving up gear is harder than you think,dont assume you will

because you hit a certain age.


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## MyVision (Apr 15, 2009)

Prodiver said:


> What if AAS use caused you a bad stroke and you became a huge burden for years to your partner and kids?


 That's what freaks me out, I'm not really scared of death, but being seriously ill or disabled scares the sh1t out of me...


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## deeppurple (Mar 13, 2010)

quite a few good posts here, can i ask then....does anybody here think they wont hit 65?


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## Musashi (Oct 21, 2009)

Prodiver said:


> I certainly wouldn't advocate self-bleeding - to reduce hematocrit by bleeding perhaps as much as a litre has to be removed, which can become critical. Best get medical advice...


Absolutely the trt guys use a Phlebotomist.


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## cecil_sensation (Jan 26, 2009)

Pscarb said:


> don't be a d1ck mate, his point is how much this guy was on and his health....
> 
> no one knows what will happen in the future but one thing is for certain your are *safer using PEDs than binge drinking, being obese or smoking..*...
> 
> i wont live forever but with sensible use and yearly health checks i intend to be as healthy as long as i can.....in my opinion it is stupid to use PEDs and not get checked up regular...


well thats it what will happen in life?

if we smoke, drink ect ect what is going to happen.

if we do steroids or drugs what will happen?

who knows, were all totally different as people.

if i dont ever drink or do any think i shouldnt i could walk out in front on a bus and be killed!

imo i stay away from juice purely because i dont know what will happen later in my life. iv in good health now for the first time in 5 years and want to keep it that way

but to bring another question to the board why do people run steds who dont have a clue what they are doing, what dieting is ect ect. i know a few lads that jab when they want and dont even diet. so why do it whats the point in risking your health as well as not getting the gains you should.


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

Prodiver said:


> High BP - hypertension - is certainly a potential hazard of AAS use.
> 
> According to various medical texts, persistent hypertension is one of the risk factors for stroke, myocardial infarction, heart failure and arterial aneurysm, and is a leading cause of chronic kidney failure. Moderate elevation of arterial blood pressure leads to shortened life expectancy.
> 
> ...


excellant post mate



oliver Roberts said:


> well thats it what will happen in life?
> 
> if we smoke, drink ect ect what is going to happen.
> 
> ...


in the vain mate many binge drink over a weekend yet dont know what that will bring.....

there are risks with everything steroids and associated drugs can cause health issues but lets not be naive to think not using steroids etc but drinking smoking and eating crap will make you more healthy.....


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## MarkFranco (Aug 26, 2010)

LittleChris said:


> Would you ever advocate bleeding yourself to reduce RBC Prodriver? Like the Mongols bleed their horses...


I think I remember con mentioned giving blood when his RBC gets to high, apologies in advance to con if im wrong.


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## Prodiver (Nov 14, 2008)

MarkFranco said:


> I think I remember con mentioned giving blood when his RBC gets to high, apologies in advance to con if im wrong.


Yes - but in the UK you will not - if you're honest - be allowed to donate blood if you're on gear or TRT.


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## Raptor (Feb 16, 2010)

MarkFranco said:


> I think I remember con mentioned giving blood when his RBC gets to high, apologies in advance to con if im wrong.


LOL the ill patient waked up with 20" guns


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## Joshua (Aug 21, 2008)

I think that many people, especially when younger have little thought for their old age. More importantly, perception of risk is inaccurate [iMO].

CVP health is one of my greater concerns, and I suspect that if I die from natural causes, that would be at the root.

I disagree with the blanket idea that PEDs are better for one than the rec drugs and sedentary lifestyles. It is a matter of dose coupled with existing risk factors. A few moderate cycles done in life with clean diets, cardio, etc would have little effect compared to a pack a day smoking alchoholic who consumes cocaine with a whiskey chaser. A person who lives for years on 100mg of sdrol, dnp and 2Kg of beef a day would not fair so well.

The thing that concerns me most is the interactions from all these things we do (PEDs in particular). Generally ramping up every anabolic pathway known to man is likely to have many unintended consequences.

On the topic of CR, I lived on this regime for several years when I was younger. It was quite brutal, and when I came off it, I found that my thinking was far better than when on. As a long term strategy, it may well make one live longer, but the quality of life is important too.

In some ways, one has to balance the risks in life and attempt to do so objectively - its all too easy to look for and focus on the evidence that supports what we want to hear (confirmation bias).

J


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## Uriel (Oct 14, 2008)

Prodiver said:


> What if AAS use caused you a bad stroke and you became a huge burden for years to your partner and kids?


oooohh get Mr fuking downer:laugh:


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## Lois_Lane (Jul 21, 2009)

Who cares the way the world is going you may aswell not even think about your life in 30 years as you probably wont have it.

The human body can recover from a lot and i mean A LOT the question is are YOU smart enough to realize when enough is enough and can then do the right thing and stop.

You can go in the other direction like i have and drive your self crazy checking your body.

For instance like i do lol. I over the past two weeks went nuts and did urinalysis 100 times (all the strips in the box) as i found trace protein urine. Turns out its totally normal after heavy training and it goes away after about 36 hours of not training in my body. I still drove my self mad with it though. Same goes from creatinine at 20 years old i had 1.5 and in my last check it was 1.3 (this was after stopping training for a while and losing some size). Creatinine goes directly with heavy training and muscle mass.....not all docs realize this and can worry you to no end.

Worry is one of the biggest dangers to illustrate this point i took my BP while typing this and it was elevated to 142/78 when first thing this morning it was 120/68 lol....


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## Andy Dee (Jun 1, 2008)

Lois_Lane said:


> Who cares the way the world is going you may aswell not even think about your life in 30 years as you probably wont have it.


Exactly, thats why you gotta live for today.

I dont expect the world to even be here on 30 years time, nevermind me.


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## Uriel (Oct 14, 2008)

fuk look at the guys like Keith Richards....

have a litre of jack before brekky.take every hard drug known to man, stick your willy in every animal vegetable or mineral you can for err about 50 years.........

And you tghink I'm going to **** it on a G and a half of gear??


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## vetran (Oct 17, 2009)

i was told by a gypsy at blackpool 30 years ago that i am going to live well into my 80s,so for that i intend to carry on squirting it in me for sure ,pork pies the lot lol


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## stow (Jun 5, 2007)

Prodiver said:


> There's no evidence that saturated fats increase CV risk...


Alright  , but there is evidence that replacing sat fats with healthy fats can reduce the incidence of HD.


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## Prodiver (Nov 14, 2008)

stow said:


> Alright  , but there is evidence that replacing sat fats with healthy fats can reduce the incidence of HD.


Apparently there isn't actually...

It's carbs, especially refined carbs, that are linked to obesity, diabetes and heart disease.

But increasingly the evidence is that CV and HD are caused by earlier chronic systemic stress.


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## PRD (Sep 4, 2010)

Live for today mate,

The old saying of 'One life, live it'


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## Unit_69 (Jul 9, 2009)

Prodiver said:


> Apparently there isn't actually...
> 
> It's carbs, especially refined carbs, that are linked to obesity, diabetes and heart disease.
> 
> But increasingly the evidence is that CV and HD are caused by earlier chronic systemic stress.


PD - do you have any links to research studies/reviews that have examined this?


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## Simon m (Apr 3, 2008)

I'm in my 40's and doing a DIY TRT of between 200mg - 300mg of test per week and 150mg of deca at the moment and very healthy.

If I was doing 2-3 grams per week, I think I'd be much more worried.

Cruise and blast seems to make sense as well


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

Simon m said:


> I'm in my 40's and doing a DIY TRT of between 200mg - 300mg of test per week and 150mg of deca at the moment and very healthy.
> 
> If I was doing 2-3 grams per week, I think I'd be much more worried.
> 
> Cruise and blast seems to make sense as well


450mg of gear a week is not TRT doses mate, that is a cycle half that dose every 10 days would be more like ti in my opinion but each to their own


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## vetran (Oct 17, 2009)

yep ive cleaned it up a bit ,trying 250 mg every 5 weeks at the mo since march and i still in to porn lol


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## H22civic (Oct 6, 2009)

Must admit, i do wonder how gear use might be affecting my body. Must get myself checked out once ive finished my current course.

Slightly off topic, just wondering how long gear might affect blood pressure after a course is finished? Last year i had my BP taken about 2 weeks after i finished a course of sustanon and deca. Came out pretty good at 119/79. Would 2 weeks be long enough for blood pressure to drop back down to normal levels if it had been high during the course? Must get it checked again, in the middle of my current course this time, and compare.


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## enka (May 19, 2010)

dont think it makes any diffrence, i mean look at arnold people say his heart problem was dwn to steroids but his mother had the same problem a few years younger than he was, so was she on the roids


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## stow (Jun 5, 2007)

Prodiver said:


> Apparently there isn't actually...
> 
> It's carbs, especially refined carbs, that are linked to obesity, diabetes and heart disease.
> 
> But increasingly the evidence is that CV and HD are caused by earlier chronic systemic stress.


Sort of backs up both points.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20711693

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20089734

You are of course right that the science is actually quite different from general public belief and my OP was too generic.

As usual PD, you are v well informed :thumb:


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## Uriel (Oct 14, 2008)

vetran said:


> yep ive cleaned it up a bit ,trying 250 mg every 5 weeks at the mo since march and i still in to porn lol


test e, cyp and even sust half life out every 5 or 6 days at best....

your 250mg becomes 125 after 5 days so at 25 days you have about 7 mg of gear available to your system.becoming 3mg at 30 days and pretty much completely gone at 30 days....

really you have no test available from that shot after 28 days mate, give or take

IMO a good trt regime is a shot of around 100mg a week to 10 days for best of everything


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

Uriel said:


> IMO a good trt regime is a shot of around 100mg a week to 10 days for best of everything


Yes totally agree:thumb:


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## Simon m (Apr 3, 2008)

Pscarb said:


> 450mg of gear a week is not TRT doses mate, that is a cycle half that dose every 10 days would be more like ti in my opinion but each to their own


 That's my blast phase Paul. Normally less than half that mate


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## goonerton (Sep 7, 2009)

Prodiver said:


> Research is beginning to show that a low cholesterol level is more dangerous than a high one, that cardiovascular disease is overwhelmingly related to earlier chronically high cortisol levels caused by real stress rather than diet, and that higher ratios of refined carbohydrates increase mortality far more than higher ratios of fat and protein.


I`d be interested to see this research. I have heard that HDL /LDL ratio is more important than the overall score.

But I would be very interested to see any research that suggests low cholesterol is more dangerous than high...


----------



## Prodiver (Nov 14, 2008)

goonerton said:


> I`d be interested to see this research. I have heard that HDL /LDL ratio is more important than the overall score.
> 
> But I would be very interested to see any research that suggests low cholesterol is more dangerous than high...


Read Dr Malcolm Kendrick's book The Great Cholesterol Con (cheap from Amazon).

He quotes various studies accepted by the statin manufacturers including WHO figures which show that risk of illness and death increases rapidly as cholesterol level falls below 4, but only increases slowly above 6.

More than that, he similarly shows that cholesterol cannot be a cause of CV disease, and that LDL/HDL ratio cannot be significant.

He also strongly questions the evidence that shows the benefits of replacing saturated fats with unsaturated.

And that CV disease is related to earlier chronic systemic stress.

There are vids of his talk to medics at Leeds Royal Infirmary on YouTube and summaries of his book and research papers online.


----------



## Dudeofdoom (Sep 3, 2010)

Thinking out the box here but would steroids actually be of some health benefit when your in the later on stage?

(nope i'm not thinking about it just thinkin out loud


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## Musashi (Oct 21, 2009)

Uriel said:


> IMO a good trt regime is a shot of around 100mg a week to 10 days for best of everything


Fair play and it's a 'start'.

However TRT isn't the same as a blast, cruise or cycle in terms of injection frequency/protocol. Serum stability is of paramount importance for guys on TRT as some of the reasons for going on can be mood swings or 'brain fog'.

These symptoms can be helped with the stabilising of serum test and shorter injections or an every day gel can assist in the process.

TRT should not be about treating the numbers, it's really about treating the presenting condition which is about taking care of the person so that they are happier both mentally and physically.

ATB.


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## vetran (Oct 17, 2009)

Uriel said:


> test e, cyp and even sust half life out every 5 or 6 days at best....
> 
> your 250mg becomes 125 after 5 days so at 25 days you have about 7 mg of gear available to your system.becoming 3mg at 30 days and pretty much completely gone at 30 days....
> 
> ...


yep im,e just experimenting ,it could all end in tears we shall see lol


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## shauno (Aug 26, 2007)

One day your gonna be sitting in your rocking chair with nothing but your memories, are you gonna look back and think i shouldve done this or that?

Lifes too short, im gonna take a couple risks and be big enough to stand up to the consequences. because living a boring average life is bollocks... no ****ing point in it


----------



## Grim Reaper (Feb 21, 2010)

Yeah sure some of us may suffer later on in life for the gear we have taken during our lives, but when i see some poor old boy doddering round tesco's hunched over doesn't tell me 20 yrs ago he was hench and pumping in dbol like they were going out of fashion just to squat 220kg for reps, im 39 now and in better shape than many people in their 20s that spend most of their time downing stella and sniffing powder. I find that having checks down the doc's dont help as most just think wow the stuff your chucking in your body is really dangourous and gonna kill you if you dont stop now !! really most doc's are massively overweight and obese yet on there wall chart so am i !!! fcuksake these men need to lay down just to see their todger, my motto is

"live for today your a long time dead" .....

regards grim


----------



## SD (Sep 3, 2004)

Juice Junky said:


> Live for today mate,
> 
> The old saying of 'One life, live it'


Spoken like a true 'younger person'. Wait till you are in your 30's or 40's and you want to see your kids grow up, your attitude will change dramatically.



Simon m said:


> I'm in my 40's and doing a DIY *TRT of between 200mg - 300mg of test per week* *and 150mg of deca* at the moment and very healthy.
> 
> If I was doing 2-3 grams per week, I think I'd be much more worried.
> 
> Cruise and blast seems to make sense as well


As said before, thats a cycle not TRT or a blast on TRT, its a cycle period. Of course you feel healthy, you are stacked with AAS lol.



Simon m said:


> That's my blast phase Paul. Normally less than half that mate


Theres a blast phase on TRT? :confused1:

:lol: SD


----------



## Simon m (Apr 3, 2008)

SD said:


> As said before, thats a cycle not TRT or a blast on TRT, its a cycle period. Of course you feel healthy, you are stacked with AAS lol.
> 
> Theres a blast phase on TRT? :confused1:
> 
> :lol: SD


Sorry, I haven't made myself clear.

I'm on a low dose for a DIY TRT, then went on a little blast for sh!ts and giggles, now coming back down again.

In terms of fitness etc., BP and everything else is checked every 6 months and all is good.

My aim with what I'm doing is to feel as good as I did in my 20's without risking health and this works.

However, I started roids at 41 and played rugby for over 25 years so have a good general fitness base as well which helps.


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## shauno (Aug 26, 2007)

SD said:


> *Spoken like a true 'younger person'. Wait till you are in your 30's or 40's and you want to see your kids grow up, your attitude will change dramatically.*
> 
> :lol: SD


Fair point mate and noted but, what if you end up having kids with any old burd because you spent your life down the pub and thought ****, cos at 30yo you dont want to be left on the shelf and settled for anyone... are you really any better off?

vs

taking some gear and looking after yourself a bit better and increasing your odds of being attractive to someone you'd want to be with.

admittedly you compromise fertility and that is if im honest my biggest worry.

sometimes youve got to look around and think am i living or existing, cos i know its cliche to say you could be hit by a bus tomorrow but you never really take it in till you do actually lose a close friend at a young age and it makes you realise time waits for no-one.


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## essexboy (Sep 7, 2008)

Fair point mate and noted but, what if you end up having kids with any old burd because you spent your life down the pub and thought ****, cos at 30yo you dont want to be left on the shelf and settled for anyone... are you really any better off?

vs

taking some gear and looking after yourself a bit better and increasing your odds of being attractive to someone you'd want to be with.

admittedly you compromise fertility and that is if im honest my biggest worry.

sometimes youve got to look around and think am i living or existing, cos i know its cliche to say you could be hit by a bus tomorrow but you never really take it in till you do actually lose a close friend at a young age and it makes you realise time waits for no-one.

You seem to adopted the thought that using peds in the panacea for all lifes issues, from contentment, to being "attractive" to women.Let me assure you, any woman that is searching for a partner to sire her children, would find "fertility" a far more desirable attribute than big muscles.


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

The problem here is that many seem to think if you take steroids you will die young? Why yes some bodybuilders have died young and more will do but then many thousand die from other things everyday...

The key to the use of PEDs is no matter what you take be responsible for your own health, go to a clinic like the the one in south wales where the tests and consult is carried out by medical people who understand how to interpret results for bodybuilders.....

Get a BP device to track your BP....also use a dose that gives you results with the least amount of sides.....

Above all else use common sense if you look like a fat water balloon waiting for a heart attack to happen no matter what the guys in the gym say ease up.....


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## shauno (Aug 26, 2007)

essexboy said:


> Fair point mate and noted but, what if you end up having kids with any old burd because you spent your life down the pub and thought ****, cos at 30yo you dont want to be left on the shelf and settled for anyone... are you really any better off?
> 
> vs
> 
> ...


Ofcourse but what im saying is if it makes you happy then do it :thumbup1:

weigh up the options and make a thought out decision.


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## SD (Sep 3, 2004)

shauno said:


> Fair point mate and noted but, what if you end up having kids with any old burd because you spent your life down the pub and thought ****, cos at 30yo you dont want to be left on the shelf and settled for anyone... are you really any better off?
> 
> vs
> 
> ...


Well you could make a lot of comparisons to taking AAS and say well I am better of doing AAS than..... (heroin/crack/cocaine/alcohol abuse/smoking etc etc etc) but purely saying at least your not doing something worse won't protect you from the potential of permanent damage from AAS usage.

Yes AAS are probably not going to kill you, as you said though, time waits for no-one and if you want to get cracking having kids before your old enought o be there grandad, it might be worth factoring that into your risk vs benefit.

SD


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## Little Ron (Aug 10, 2010)

SD said:


> For the future I worry about my fertility mainly, I dont have any kids and would be devastated now if I couldn't. I know from previous tests that my sperm count is very low and that was 12 months after taking any AAS. Children aren't something I was contemplating when I started but now it plays on my mind a lot, especially after reading Big Vin's thread. On a side note, my bloods always came back with some Liver damage, again 12 months post PCT too, so it takes a lot longer to recover than people think.
> 
> SD


Took me a good 18 months of hell before my swimmers returned.. In that time I was definately depressed but just got on with it. I had a minus test score and that added to the fact I was facing not being able to have children and completing my family made me so low. It was all worth it though and I now have a 2.5yo son. All done naturally after all the talk of insemination etc etc. My doc actually told me that gear wasn't the reason for my zero sperm count, good job I didn't listen. 

Has that experience stopped me? No and like most on here I live in ignorance believing "it wont happen to me". The trouble is, when your proved wrong and that it does happen to you its usually too late. That said, if somethign makes you happy then you have to do it. No point in living a long life if its a miserable one.


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## glanzav (Sep 11, 2008)

would gh and peptide use be safer do you beileve you can gain quality muscle on thesesay 10iu gh daily using tribulus testosterone boosters so on


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

glanzav said:


> would gh and peptide use be safer do you beileve you can gain quality muscle on thesesay 10iu gh daily using tribulus testosterone boosters so on


no the muscle gain on these types of things would be small in my opinion, yes peptides will change the look of the muscle and add to it but it is gear that makes that new muscle larger....i can tell you that by being consistent with a decent brand of GH and lowering your dose you can gain quality....

and don't make me laugh with tribulus :0


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## Kezz (Sep 3, 2007)

i took my first course in 86, carried on ever since, but i only take smallish amounts and my diet is clean and consistent,, well 6 days a week!!

I do tons of cardio, martial arts and weight training.. keep myself fit and healthy, so fingers crossed i wont pop my clogs from taking dianabol 25 years ago any time soon!!


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## rs007 (May 28, 2007)

Prodiver said:


> *Read Dr Malcolm Kendrick's book **The Great Cholesterol Con** (cheap from Amazon).*
> 
> *
> *
> ...


Seriously, anyone who thinks they are remotely interested in health, and IMO all bodybuilders should read this book.

I ordered a copy on Pats recommendation - under a 5er delivered from Amazon.

People, we KNOW that the wider public have been fed a lot of BS - and believe it - about anabolic steroids. We see it, because we are on the inside, and we know the truth. Yet the public believe the BS they have been told with absolute certainty.

Well, we have ALL been fed a similar - but far greater in magnitude - line of bullsh1t re cholesterol, the connection to saturated fat intake (there isnt one) and its connection to CV disease (there isn't one).

It is all assumption, supposition, and a big part misdirection and outright lies used to fuel a MASSIVE global profit machine for everything from "healthy" cereals, butter substitutes, lifestyle choices, and of course health service spin off and pharmaceuticals companies...

Honestly folks, read it, might be the best 5er you'll spend.


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## chrisj22 (Mar 22, 2006)

Just ordered it


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## rs007 (May 28, 2007)

chrisj22 said:


> Just ordered it


He will have no doubt made some mistakes, errors, but I am wagering a good few less than the medical community in the last 150 years :lol:

But the true value of the book is to get you to open your eyes, question stuff we just assume is right because we are told it is...


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

will order it today mate


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## NickC (Apr 6, 2010)

Looks like an interesting read... might have to treat myself lol.


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## Little Ron (Aug 10, 2010)

I think I will order it too..


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## chrisj22 (Mar 22, 2006)

Just want to bump this as I received the book the other day, and I agree with Rammers, it's quite possibly the best £4.50 I've ever spent.

A true eye-opener to what the public perceives as 'danger', when in reality, it's a load of BS


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## rs007 (May 28, 2007)

chrisj22 said:


> Just want to bump this as I received the book the other day, and I agree with Rammers, it's quite possibly the best £4.50 I've ever spent.
> 
> A true eye-opener to what the public perceives as 'danger', when in reality, it's a load of BS


Nice one, and thanks again to Pat for bringing it to my attention.

When you get deeper into it he actually quotes experts from MASSIVE studies (in terms of samples AND timescales) which explicitly state they could not prove a connection between fat intake and cholesterol levels, nor cholesterol and incidence of CV disease.

I think this is especially valuable to us as BBers, as one of the scare stories of steroid use (and justification for PCT and recovery) is messed up lipid profiles, LDL/HDL ratio etc - when in fact it might simply not matter. Of special not is when he goes into how ridiculous the notion of "good" and "bad" cholesterol is...

Even more worrying he shows a clear trend between LOW total cholesterol and increased death rates, from any cause...


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## Andy Dee (Jun 1, 2008)

rs007 said:


> Seriously, anyone who thinks they are remotely interested in health, and IMO all bodybuilders should read this book.
> 
> I ordered a copy on Pats recommendation - under a 5er delivered from Amazon.
> 
> ...


I was reading a few things in 2 books and studies about this cholesterol crap only a few months ago (one of them being brawn) and they all did very long term studies and 2 conslusions stick in my mind what they said.

First of all they could never prove cholesterol was linked to CV disease and everyone they studied it on died of something else although I dont know how accurate it is, its one reason ive never bought into this cholestrol scare hype.


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## chrisj22 (Mar 22, 2006)

Everyone should be made to read the book, seriously.

99% of the population believe the cholesterol crap, but it's not their fault, it's the drivel the media put in the papers/news everyday.

I mean, if we weren't into this sport, we may think exactly the same...

Who knows??


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## Andy Dee (Jun 1, 2008)

chrisj22 said:


> Everyone should be made to read the book, seriously.
> 
> *99% of the population believe the cholesterol crap*, but it's not their fault, it's the drivel the media put in the papers/news everyday.
> 
> ...


They sure do, yet another brainwashed NHS money maker and more money in GP's pockets.


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## chrisj22 (Mar 22, 2006)

andysutils said:


> They sure do, yet another brainwashed NHS money maker and more money in GP's pockets.


Totally right mate :thumbup1:

I'm actually forcing my dad to read it. He's not brainwashed per se', but I think the book will make him understand where I'm coming from


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## Joshua (Aug 21, 2008)

I think this is especially valuable to us as BBers, as one of the scare stories of steroid use (and justification for PCT and recovery) is messed up lipid profiles, LDL/HDL ratio etc - when in fact it might simply not matter. Of special not is when he goes into how ridiculous the notion of "good" and "bad" cholesterol is...

Dietary cholesterol is one thing, but before you totally disregard the LDL/HDL ratio, the ratio itself may not be the cause of atherosclerosis, but it may well be associated with it. Oxidised LDL is not a good thing in the vasculature IMHO.

J


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## rs007 (May 28, 2007)

Joshua said:


> I think this is especially valuable to us as BBers, as one of the scare stories of steroid use (and justification for PCT and recovery) is messed up lipid profiles, LDL/HDL ratio etc - when in fact it might simply not matter. Of special not is when he goes into how ridiculous the notion of "good" and "bad" cholesterol is...
> 
> Dietary cholesterol is one thing, but before you totally disregard the LDL/HDL ratio, the ratio itself may not be the cause of atherosclerosis, but it may well be associated with it. Oxidised LDL is not a good thing in the vasculature IMHO.
> 
> J


He mentions this himself in the perspective that it may be a marker for something going on as opposed to the problem itself - which is what mainstream medical/media wisdom would have you believe...

I'm not sure I much buy any of it now to be completely honest - the medical community has over the course of decades constantly changed its story every time no evidence for their thinking on the issue has been found in proper trials - rather than just admit they are wrong.

A consistent modus operandi by the medical community on many topics tbh


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## d4ead (Nov 3, 2008)

To be honest I started gear cos I stopped caring if I lived or died.

Now I care more but don't wanna stop.


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