# The Use of Dianabol as a Supplement



## Noodlenex (Nov 10, 2004)

*Article by Bransholme (MuscleTalk Member)*

This article was originally intended to be a history of the anabolic steroid dianabol and it's usage in bodybuilding, but there is little real evidence of how it was used in previous decades. However, in the course of research, I have come to the conclusion that current use of dianabol as a supplement is not as efficient as it could be. Most of the modern thoughts on dianabol use reflect around myths and irrelevant scientific studies; this article attempts to explain new ways of thinking on dianabol usage using scientific evidence and people's experiences.

Dianabol (or dbol as it's commonly called) is one of the most commonly used oral steroids. Its chemical name is methanedienone or methandrostenolone and there are many different pharmaceutical and generic varieties including Anabol and Naposim. In this article we look at lower dose usage of dianabol as a supplement, as opposed to using pro-hormones or pro-steroids.

*Liver Toxicity of Dianabol*

The 17 alpha-alkylated properties of methanedienone do make it liver toxic, but this, I believe, is overstated as most of the evidence of its toxicity comes from studies on individuals and not from studies on large groups of dianabol-using bodybuilders. One study on rats (1) showed that regardless of dose or time of administration, dianabol produces changes in enzymatic activity, which leads to hypertrophy of hepatocytes; which basically shows that dianabol is toxic to the liver. But in another study (2) Nerobol (Russian Dianabol) was found to favour a rapid normalisation of functional and metabolic disorders of the liver, which contradicts the earlier evidence. This shows that the whole idea of dianabol being dangerous is in no way as bad as some would make out.

*Benefits of Dianabol Use*

Dianabol has been shown to increase anaerobic glycolysis (3), which increases lactic acid build up in the body. This is beneficial because lactic acid is used by the muscles to form glycogen, which in turn provides energy in anaerobic metabolism. Lactic acid is also a key chemical in the disposal of dietary carbohydrates, which means you are less likely to get fat while using dianabol.

A study on osteoporosis (4) showed that at a dosage of just 2.5mg per day for 9 months dianabol was more effective than calcium supplementation in reducing osteoporotic activity, it was also shown to increase muscle mass more effectively. Another study on osteoporosis (5) which lasted 24 months, showed just how dianabol works on osteoporosis; dianabol increased total body calcium, and also total body potassium. This may not mean much to you as a bodybuilder, but the actions of calcium are very important to bodybuilders, as it transports large numbers of amino acids and also creatine and these two things are vital in muscle growth. Potassium is also very important, as it assists in muscle contractions, transmitting nerve signals, and insulin release; so it is also a very anabolic substance.

One very interesting study (6), although not significant in bodybuilding terms, showed that dianabol increases the sensitivity of laryngeal tumour cells to radiotherapy, and concluded 'recommending this hormone to be used during radiotherapy of patients with the laryngeal cancer'.

*How to Cycle Dianabol*

To create a cycle for dianabol that is based around using it more as a supplement than a steroid, we first need to look at the current trend for cycling dianabol and analyse what is wrong with it. An average cycle of Dianabol is usually structured as 25-40mg split throughout each day for 4-6 weeks, either alone or stacked with other steroids.

Firstly a dose of 25mg or more commonly causes water retention. It is well known that dianabol does aromatise quite easily, and most of the water retention is usually attributed to a build up of excess estrogen. However, it is my belief that initially water retention is caused by the body holding on to water due to the effects of dianabol on the body's mineral balance, in particular the potassium/sodium balance. This coupled with the fact that dianabol cause estrogenic side effects, leads to a lot of water build-up, and as there is little we can do about the change in the bodies mineral balance, the only other thing we can do is try to reduce aromatisation, usually with Nolvadex (tamoxifen) or other anti-estrogens. This is not the only method though, by reducing the dose, less of the drug will aromatise, which leads to less estrogen and more importantly less water retention. Reducing the drug during a cycle would lead to estrogen levels dropping slowly, so we should start the cycle with a lower dose of 10-20mg each day.

Splitting the dosage when you are using a low dose is virtually pointless, as you will get a much smaller peak of the drug. So in this case it is best to take it in a single dose in the morning (preferably with grapefruit juice). Although this will not prevent suppression of natural testosterone, it may lessen it to a certain degree, as your body will still have lengthy periods later in the day when there is little testosterone circulating, and so it may still produce some.

Now if we look at cycle duration, 4-6 weeks seems too short to have any real effect at a low dose, but how can we use dianabol for longer without placing more risk on our liver? The solution is actually quite simple; by taking weekends off from the drug we will give our livers a break from processing the drug. Due to the short half-life any active substances will be out of our system within 24 hours of your last dose, now this may seem like it will cost you gains, but in actual fact it will cost you little or no losses in the long run as even though there is no active drug in the body the effects are still present i.e. extra intramuscular water, and a more anabolic mineral balance. These effects usually taper off over several days. This method will not however, help your natural testosterone to return from its inhibited state, as this process can take considerably longer. If we take weekends off and use a lower dose, we should in theory be able to use dianabol for 10 weeks with no problems. A simple bit of mathematics can show this point best:


6 weeks @25mg each day = 1050mg of Dianabol in total

10 weeks with weekends off @15mg each day = 750mg of Dianabol in total


So as you can see, by using this system your liver will actually process less dianabol than in a conventional cycle, add this to the fact that you can make gains for 10 weeks instead of 6, and with fewer side effects, and you get a very solid cycle.

*Summary*

This Cycle Theory can be applied in many different situations, for instance a beginner could use the dianabol on it's own for 10 weeks and gain very well. A more experienced steroid user could use this alongside an injectable cycle for very good gains too, getting the benefit of the initial quick gains of the Dianabol, with the slower but stronger gains of an injectable.

This cycle may seem to go against many of the current trends of dianabol use, but I believe that by using dianabol as a supplement to good training and nutrition you can make very good gains.

*References*


Effects of methandrostenolone on liver morphology and enzymatic activity. Nesterin MF, Budik VM, Narodetskaia RV, Solov'eva GI, Stoianova VG.

An experimental study of the hepatoprotective properties of phytoecdysteroids and Nerobol in carbon tetrachloride induce liver lesions. Syrov VN, Khushbaktova ZA, Nabiev AN.

Effects of methanedienone (methandrostenolone) on energy processes and carbohydrate metabolism in rat liver cells. Serakovskii S, Mats'koviak Iu.

Calcium, vitamin D and anabolic steroid treatment of aged bones: double-blind placebo-controlled long-term clinical trial. Inkovaara J, Gothoni G, Halttula R, Heikinheimo R, Tokola O.

Changes in body composition following therapy of osteoporosis with methandrostenolone. Mann V, Benko AB, Kocsar LT.

Radiomodifying effect of methandrostenolone on laryngeal cancer cells. Bordiushkov IuN, Kucherova TI, Kisliakova ND, Vagner VP, Zubkova TV.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Good article, thanks.


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## Killerkeane (Nov 9, 2003)

would that be safe? to miss weekends and do a 10 week cycle?


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

I dont see why not at that small of a dose.

I think I read somewhere (maybe even here) that they use 10mg a day in the morning with no shutdown.

The morning levels are the highest and beings that the halflife is so short that the body does not shutdown as it thinks your natural morning levels are just elevated.


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## DB (Oct 31, 2003)

well 10mg will still cause a shut down but it will be limited....

i have known people to take dbol for only 5/6 days a week for 8-10 weeks and they found it excellent?? not sure if an experience steroid user would benefit from it but a newbie could


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## Cookie (Sep 14, 2009)

> not sure if an experience steroid user would benefit from it but a newbie could


Larry Scott won his 2 olympias on only 10mg aday as back in those days they had a gentlemans agreement not to go past the recomended daily allownce of the drug as it was sold as a weight gainer for undernutritioned people,if memeory serves me correct.


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## samurai691436114498 (Jan 6, 2005)

Read about this a while ago, this is going to be my next cycle, beginning end march now (was going to start earlier, but am about to start diatia and dont want to conflict results)


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## DB (Oct 31, 2003)

ONE SMART COOKIE said:


> Larry Scott won his 2 olympias on only 10mg aday as back in those days they had a gentlemans agreement not to go past the recomended daily allownce of the drug as it was sold as a weight gainer for undernutritioned people,if memeory serves me correct.


well there u go cheers cookie always learn somethin!!


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## sweet_FA (Feb 1, 2005)

Ive had absolutely zero signs of water retention since using Dbol, in fact i look as tho ive shed water as my abs are more prominent now and all my body seems generally more fuller and muscular, i have only put on 3lbs since i started the course 12 days ago, I dont know why i dont follow suit as most other people and gain water?!!!!


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## Killerkeane (Nov 9, 2003)

thats interesting cookie, i remember reading something similar. Wasnt Larry scott though, so what would be the most beneficial to a "newbie" wishing to take dianabol, take it more regurarly at lower dosages?


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## Cookie (Sep 14, 2009)

If I was a newbie again I would go back to what I did in the begining and it worked everytime.

10-15mg aday for 3-4 weeks with 4 weeks off then repeat.

I gain steadily and slowly of every cycle

In fact wished I`d never gone onto bigger stuff.

As for the larry scott dosage there was actually a big meeting of all the top stars of the day at vince girondas gym to disscuss the benefits/downfalls of actually going up to 15mg aday,make ya think dont it if they were actually onto something in those days with regards to training and diet and using gear as the final cherry on the top.

Boyer coe was also another that spent a lot of time only using 10mg aday in his cycles and he didnt do too bad out of it either.


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## Killerkeane (Nov 9, 2003)

at that dosage, that significantly cuts the risk out too right, for younger people?


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## Deano1 (Apr 5, 2004)

this sounds good to me


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## panther (Feb 18, 2005)

i totally agree. but i think your body weight should determine the dose. experiment and find out which has a better effect. makes sense. with dbol your gain will take place in the 1st 3-4 weeks


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## the fox (Feb 28, 2005)

XXXXXXXXXXXX

Sorry, posts of that nature are not permitted on this board.



L


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## hollis (Apr 7, 2005)

XXXXXXXXXXXX

Sorry, posts of that nature are not permitted on this board.



L


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## samurai691436114498 (Jan 6, 2005)

RIGHT, i am just getting the bits together to do this cycle, i plan on 15mg a day 5 days a week for 10 weeks (150 x 5mg tabs), with weekends off. I plan on taking milk thistle (140mg per day)starting before and continuing after, along side and also want to take nolvadex at 10mg per day throught.

Should i also get clomid for pct or just continue with the nolvadex?

I will post up a log, before and after photos and weight gain total and kept weight for any one interested

Also, whats best apex (d-bol) or russian (d-bol)?

.


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## Cookie (Sep 14, 2009)

TBH I dont think you will need any nolvadex at that dosage,I never did,I would then use it at the end of the cycle when coming off,maybe even only doing 6-8 week cycle rather than 10 weeks,if all goes well then up the length to 10 weeks next time around(i used to do 4 weeks on 4 weeks of with the dbol).

Just my tuppence worth.


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## samurai691436114498 (Jan 6, 2005)

cheers cookie, its quite a low dosage anyway


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## crazycal1 (Sep 21, 2005)

i know this is an old thread ,but im now into week 6 of doing dbol at 15mg a day weekends off-adding some 1ad for the last 4 weeks at 400mg`s-on day 31 iwas 6lb`s up with no bloat and it went on slowly-so its all looking good-sorry ,but my journal is at the darkside or musclechat.


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## samurai691436114498 (Jan 6, 2005)

crazycal1 said:


> i know this is an old thread ,but im now into week 6 of doing dbol at 15mg a day weekends off-adding some 1ad for the last 4 weeks at 400mg`s-on day 31 iwas 6lb`s up with no bloat and it went on slowly-so its all looking good-sorry ,but my journal is at the darkside or musclechat.


good....................may look into this a bit next year..............after june as i plan on 3 more cycles from march 06 ....too

keep us informed on how its going


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## giacomo (Dec 15, 2005)

When using Dianabol in this format - how would this affect the PCT at the end of the 10 week cycle? -Any reccomendations?

Still researching at the mo - before final consideration.....


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## Johnny bravo (Nov 1, 2005)

Very good article mate

Very interesting makes me consider doing it myself


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## samurai691436114498 (Jan 6, 2005)

giacomo said:


> When using Dianabol in this format - how would this affect the PCT at the end of the 10 week cycle? -Any reccomendations?
> 
> Still researching at the mo - before final consideration.....


i would go with normal PCT, your still going to get some shutdown on this type of cycle i think (14 x 14 was different - no real need for pct)


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## kas1436114505 (Aug 6, 2005)

i am really intrested in this, samurai i have question for you, i want to do something like this but dnt no what would be the best:

14 days on and 14 days off. 20mg

4 weeks on and then 4 week off at 15 mg

or 10 weeks on with weekends off at 15mg.

ive read your journal, what were ur final gains on 14 days on and 14 days off. did ur strength go up?


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## samurai691436114498 (Jan 6, 2005)

kas said:


> i am really intrested in this, samurai i have question for you, i want to do something like this but dnt no what would be the best:
> 
> 14 days on and 14 days off. 20mg
> 
> ...


Bump for OSC to answer completely on this (final gains over 1 stone) I will post up pics soon


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## Cookie (Sep 14, 2009)

kas said:


> i am really intrested in this, samurai i have question for you, i want to do something like this but dnt no what would be the best:
> 
> 14 days on and 14 days off. 20mg
> 
> ...


QUESTIONS....

How old are

how long have you been training

Have you done any cycles before

Whats your training like

Whats your diet like...


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## kas1436114505 (Aug 6, 2005)

One Smart cookie, diets good, trainins good to, am 19 i no young for steds, but was just thinkin if i did something like 14 days on 14 days off, instead of doing 500mg test plus 4 weeks of dbol at the start.

what am trying to say is using small amount of steds.


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## Cookie (Sep 14, 2009)

Ok...pm me and we can work something out...I have some stuff/ideas that you might like..


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## Johnny bravo (Nov 1, 2005)

When doing this cycle when is the best time to take the tabs and how

for example

all three together or

one in the morning 1 lunchtime 1 dinner time.

or is there a specific time of day you should take them when your natural testosterone level is in need of a spike.

or do you take them all an hour before training


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## xcryption (Mar 25, 2006)

i took all mine as soon as i woke up in the morning (all 3 at once)

then when i was on 6 a day (i did a pyramid cycle of 3 a day for a week, then 6 a day for 1.5 week and then 3 a day for a week again and then rest) got good gains no bloat. i took 3 in morning and 3 just before i went bed.

reccomended to take it around 9am as ure natural testosterone is at its highest then.

its also recommended to use the gym as early as u can as like i sed - ure testosterone is at its highest.


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## bkotey (Mar 29, 2007)

ONE SMART COOKIE said:


> If I was a newbie again I would go back to what I did in the begining and it worked everytime.
> 
> 10-15mg aday for 3-4 weeks with 4 weeks off then repeat.
> 
> ...


Did you take weekends off the d-bol or take it right thru the 3-4weeks?


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## BBBoy (Sep 16, 2008)

Just a question about D-bol.

I'm not able to work out in the mornings and need to go after work. I'm on 20mg a day. When will be the best time to take it, seeing that I work out any time from 6 in the afternoon?

Advice will be appreciated.


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## Susty250 (Oct 3, 2008)

B-b-b-bumping-up BBBoy's question there,- I also train in the evening and would like to know the answer to this one.....?


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## JJH (Sep 19, 2008)

Brilliant Article, very interesting reading!

Cheers!


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## fits (Feb 3, 2004)

Did any one else ever try this? How did things go Crazycal???


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## leeston (May 30, 2006)

i have/am doing the 14 on 21days off 10mg pd at the moment. I love it. I am a novice and wish to make good use of my noobness before proceeding.


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## fits (Feb 3, 2004)

ahh good stuff, do you have a log on here? if not can you tell us some stats? like how long you been doign it? what gains you had? what possitives/negatives you have noticed?


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## TH0R (Aug 15, 2007)

fits said:


> ahh good stuff, do you have a log on here? if not can you tell us some stats? like how long you been doign it? what gains you had? what possitives/negatives you have noticed?


 Bump


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## Ro_7 (Nov 4, 2008)

I have heard dianabol effects aerobic capacity and would not be suitable for an aerobic sport such as football. If i were to take a course of dianabol after finishing the course would I be able to regain aerobic fitness or would it have had permanent effects?


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

If you are going to take low dose d-bol then take it an hour to an hour and a half before training.

Aerobic capacity will be less as well as all steroids, I noticed tren was the worst of all.


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## ba baracuss (Apr 26, 2004)

hackskii said:


> If you are going to take low dose d-bol then take it an hour to an hour and a half before training.
> 
> Aerobic capacity will be less as well as all steroids, I noticed tren was the worst of all.


What are your thoughts now on this way of taking dbol as regards shutdown mate?

I noticed your post from some years ago earlier in the thread said you didn't think it would be an issue; do you still think this is the case?


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

ba baracuss said:


> What are your thoughts now on this way of taking dbol as regards shutdown mate?
> 
> I noticed your post from some years ago earlier in the thread said you didn't think it would be an issue; do you still think this is the case?


Well, I do think it can shut you down, I am contimplating taking it once in a while before training to see if I can get something from it.

I am not on cycle right now, I am kind of getting tired of doing cycles, then be on PCT, then wait, then back on.

I want to do this one of 3 ways, do it and run a PCT.

Do it and then cruise.

Or do very low amounts prior to training once a week or so on lets say dead lift days or something big like that.

Low dose can shut you down, it did a friend of mine, even on winstrol I got shut down as well.


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## fits (Feb 3, 2004)

hackskii said:


> Well, I do think it can shut you down, I am contimplating taking it once in a while before training to see if I can get something from it.
> 
> I am not on cycle right now, I am kind of getting tired of doing cycles, then be on PCT, then wait, then back on.
> 
> ...


 Interesting stuff.

Hack, just a question, has your opinion changed or were there allot of crossed wires when you OSC and S69 were discussing this because reading back when the whole Cwoody saga was going on, It came across as if you were dead set against this whole low dose Dbol thing??

I have been researching this for a while, and pulsing, and its very interesting, and there seems to be many people 'pulsing' and trying different things. Unfortunately, most seem to be in the US and unable to get AAS so they are using Pro hormones so the feed back isn't exactly accurate for Dbol.

I will try this one or a few protocols at some point and log it, so the details can be seen, good or bad.


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## leeston (May 30, 2006)

hackskii said:


> Well, I do think it can shut you down, I am contimplating taking it once in a while before training to see if I can get something from it.
> 
> I am not on cycle right now, I am kind of getting tired of doing cycles, then be on PCT, then wait, then back on.
> 
> ...


oooohhhh Hacks, are you taking gear and then driving around looking for men again, tut tut will you never learn.

(lol)


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

I think the degree of shutdown is entirely personal in nature.

One guy may shutdown, another may not.

the problem I have is something like 10mg of d-bol a day may work for a moment, but once endogenous production of testosterone stops, then you are swapping your own T for some d-bol.

Once you come off, endogenous production will be low, and gains will be lost.

In my mind pulsing would be the best approach, especially if done around training days, that way you can take advantage of endogenous production of testosterone while taking exogenous amounts of d-bol.

So, low dose maybe ok for a guy for a period of time, but yet again may not be a good idea if supression is a factor.

Many guys feel if you are going to do a cycle then do it.

So, pulsing does look inviting because you can get something out of it and not have conciquences of shutdown nor running a PCT.

I dont agree with low dose d-bol where you are swapping endo production for exo supplement.

Pulsing would work around this.


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## fits (Feb 3, 2004)

hackskii said:


> I think the degree of shutdown is entirely personal in nature.
> 
> One guy may shutdown, another may not.
> 
> ...


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

My article is on that site?..............cool...........lol

Well, considering I have a 3 day split routine, and if the pulsing was done in or around some of the training days, it may offer some benefits without the risk of added sides, and shutdown.

I remember taking 15mg of d-bol an hour before I went to the gym, I did feel it and I kind of liked it, the pump was rather nice actually....lol

I think I just may try it on the lagging exercises.

I am trying to get my dead lifts back after a little back injury, I have to go slow, so I dont see any problem taking them on dead lifting days at all, even if it was just once a week.

There maybe even be something to taking a SERM while on the d-bol to avoid some supression, not sure, but tore looks like something worth considering due to the fact that estrogen is about 200 times more supressive than testosterone.

I would be willing to guess this is probably the reason for the supression.


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## brasco (Mar 3, 2007)

ONE SMART COOKIE said:


> If I was a newbie again I would go back to what I did in the begining and it worked everytime.
> 
> 10-15mg aday for 3-4 weeks with 4 weeks off then repeat.
> 
> ...


would you need pct with that??


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

brasco said:


> would you need pct with that??


Probably not, but then again I would....


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## fits (Feb 3, 2004)

I dont think cookie posts here any more. I would have thought past 14 days, you would start becomming more and more suppressed until you end up relying on the small amount of Dbol your taking.....saying that i have never tried this........

i have read that (although we will all reacted differently to it) 10mg will start suppressing around day 10. Any one tried the 5 on 2 off? or other variations?


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## fits (Feb 3, 2004)

any ideas Hack howw you would use the SERM on the pulse?


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

I would think the shutdown would happen almost immediatly.

Once the body sees too much estrogen or androgens, then LH would stop sending signals to the testicles, the testicles would stop the production of testosterone.

I believe that the longer the shutdown the more atrophy in the nuts, the more atrophy in the nuts, the more stubbern they will be to responce to LH, once the signal is being sent to the nuts.

Like an arm in a cast, it atrophies, once the cast is off, it still does not have the strength it did in as little as 6 weeks or the time the arm was in the cast.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

fits said:


> any ideas Hack howw you would use the SERM on the pulse?


Sure, something like tore to be run ED while on would curb estrogen enough to hinder shutdown some.

I am taking low dose aromasin right now and I am getting more morning wood and also some sex dreams. chances are I am having problems with excess aromitization.

Due to the fact that d-bol aromitizes quite heavily and estrogen is approx 200 times more supressive than testosterone, it makes sense for short cycles or even longer ones to use an AI during the cycle.

There is some study going around that uses 100mg test a week and some tore and the subjects are not getting negative feedback on the HPTA.

So, the low dose d-bol maybe ok with the use of tore or you may be able to get away with a bit higher dose of d-bol and still not having problems.


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## brasco (Mar 3, 2007)

hacks what do you think of the 21 on 14 off method?


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

brasco said:


> hacks what do you think of the 21 on 14 off method?


What dose?


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## fits (Feb 3, 2004)

brasco said:


> hacks what do you think of the 21 on 14 off method?


* Do you mean 14 on 21 off? *



hackskii said:


> What dose?


 If I may i'll jump in here and say at a dose of 10mg per day?? (as that is what Leeston is currently doing and what S69 done mostly before, and what i may try)


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## brasco (Mar 3, 2007)

yeh was thinking 10-15mg mate?!

cheers.


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## leeston (May 30, 2006)

i am doing 10mg. Impressed with the modest gains will see how much is retainable after the break. Will only be doing trib and creatine although i expect to get flammed now!!


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Trib is worthless.

I think you would be better off using an over the counter estrogen blocker than the trib, or even MACA, hell or low dose DHEA, or ZMA, lol.........


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## fits (Feb 3, 2004)

hackskii said:


> Trib is worthless.
> 
> I think you would be better off using an over the counter estrogen blocker than the trib, or even MACA, hell or low dose DHEA, or ZMA, lol.........


 Yeah, the likes of 6 Oxo gets good reveiws,

so going back to ... brasco's question Hack, what do you think about the 14x21 at a 10-15mg dose? and if you were to use it, would you used 6 oxo etc?

my mind is't made up abotu trib. I used a cheap brand years ago ad liked it, but only because it made me horny and i assumed at the time that ment higher test levels. I think it also depends on the quality so would not say its complete crap...jury is still out for me. I woul drather go with an OTC anti E right now as i have seen a few get good feed back.....


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

I dont see 14 days on 21 days off as being very supressive, but I would suggest over time this would change.

I think it may take a while before things come back so there will be a bit of a lul in there.

I think pulse cycleing looks better on paper to me than 14 on 21 off, especially when used around training.

I need to bring some d-bol into work for my big dead lift days, I forgot yesterday.

TBH, shutdown can go either way really, nobody can say with a diffinitive yes or no that you will or will not get shut down.

I think to some degree there will be some shutdown after the first day.

After all, LH will stop being sent to the nuts after the tabs are taken, to what degree this influence is on the nuts is only a far fetched guess.


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## leeston (May 30, 2006)

exuse my niaivity but what is there available with regards to an OTC est blocker? Can you name some decent products please.

cheers


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## fits (Feb 3, 2004)

i find it very interesting. I spoke with cookie about it via email and he emailed me over his thoughts on the whole low dose dbol thing and it was quite interesting, .

He outlined how he would do it if he would have done it agian and it was very 'training' orientated. which makes sense. Taking it 14 days on 21 off, or 5 on 2 off or pre&post workout etc is nice and simple, but he was talking about mixing it up in relation to training. Some of it crossed thoughts that i have had recently.

lets us know whata ahappens if you try it :thumbup1: good and bad results, it would be good to hear.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

leeston said:


> exuse my niaivity but what is there available with regards to an OTC est blocker? Can you name some decent products please.
> 
> cheers


There are many actually, I had looked in the past for information about reservatrol, that seemed pretty good for a natty guy, not to mention anti-cancer, better cholesterol (much needed after a cycle), and anti-oxidant properties.

But honestly there are many types of natural AI's like zinc which is a mild AI in itself, also supports testosterone production, as well as immune function.

Chyrsin but now I hear it may not be all that good, I need to dig more on that one.

AIFM than Macro suggests maybe something worth looking at.

There are many, and in between the days off with the d-bol, it would probably be a good idea to use these.

But in all fairness, although there are tons of them out there, and even some just for PCT, like one from protein factory called Post Cycle Therapy, they kind of do look promising but that is the only over the counter one I have tried. I have also tried TBomb II, I was not too impressed and it was expensive.

Perhaps someone with some experiance with over the counter stuff may chime in.



fits said:


> He outlined how he would do it if he would have done it agian and it was very 'training' orientated. which makes sense. Taking it 14 days on 21 off, or 5 on 2 off or pre&post workout etc is nice and simple, but he was talking about mixing it up in relation to training.


I can think of a few reasons why it should be used around training, lowering catabolic hormones like cortisol, binding to SHBG to offer more free testosterone, positive nitrogen ballance, placebo....lol, not to mention the pumps are pretty crazy.


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## fits (Feb 3, 2004)

Yeah it does makes sense. Im not sure what i'll experiment with first. I have Tbol too, it doesn't seem to be a good ASS to pulse, its mild with sides so might go for a short 'traditional' cycle when I try it.

Hack have you used any pro hormones or 'designer' steroids as they now seem to be called? Epi and super drol seem to be used allot in the states.

Are pro hormones still s een as being crap? or have they become better these days?


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

To be honest they kind of scare the crap out of me.

These new drugs do work for some, but some of the side effects are pretty bad, and some of them guys have no idea how to get rid of.

I see them as having less benefits than steroids, and more sides, remember they all are orals and some of them are very expensive.

Know a guy that got gyno after the Epi (I think it was estrogen rebounding), then another guy could not get rid of gyno from M1T, and lets face it, some just dont work.

As cheap as gear is, it just makes more sense to go with stuff that is proven, and the side effects are very well known prior to taking them.

Makes no sense to me not knowing what something is going to do and taking that, I dont want any surprises on my cycles, at the very least I can combat what is going on.

I think it was Bill Roberts that suggested the bigger doses taken once a day had less supression of the HPTA than trying to keep levels stable throughout the day, and he also suggested that the single doses tended to yield better gains, than those trying to keep the levels stable.

Remember peak concintrations are about 1.5 hours to 3 hours after administration, so taking them an hour and a half before training would seem to me would be effective.


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## fits (Feb 3, 2004)

Thats how I have always seen pro hormones, AAS have been about and tested by....................MANY people now so unless you buy from a bad source, you know pretty much what to eexpect. I wondered if pro hormones had got any better, but as you say, they are new so there hasn't been many testers!! and soo expensive!

People talk allot about keeping blood levels stable, but out bodies spike at different times so pulsing makes sense to me in that way. Saying that i don't know a hell of allot about this.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

But you are asking questions, so yes you will know a hell alot about it if you keep asking.


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## fits (Feb 3, 2004)

So are you going to try a pulse of sorts? just dead lift days? could that not be potentially harmful if your comming back from injury? maybe you will be pumped and try lifting, or even lift more than your revovery body part actually wants to?


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Well, I am clean now and pretty much want to stay that way, I am kind of tired of jabs, higher than normal blood pressure, and doing the whole PCT thing. Not to mention wanting to shag all women of age regardless of age (Robsta, don't start!) Only to have sub-par libido after the cycle was done months down the road.

Everything will comeback online, over time.

So, to answer your question, pulsing sounds good to me.....lol

Dead lift days offer the best bang for my buck, as it is the most compound lift I can think of, squats second, but my knees hurt and are a bit stiff.

Back injury is much better, even at the modest weight I was pulling on tuesday I am sore today on Thursday, but the back is holding up fine, it is the stupid stuff I did that injures me and not the dead lifts.

I have never had any back problems with the dead lift, even though I should work abs more frequently and at diffrent angles.

I have fractured 3 vertabra in my back with a car accident and to be honest it is the restricted movements that give me the most heartache.

That last injury was trying to pull like a freaking idiot on the concept II rower in compitition with a buddy of mine......Yah I beat him but hell, two days later I was jacked.

I have learned over the years to not force things, I have many injuries and they do set me back some but I have learned to work around them in a way that offers direct stimulation, and can keep my strength and size.

I am almost 50 years old and am still pretty strong.

I know my limitations, yet I do like a challenge once in a while.

Ego is a bitch sometimes................lol

Honestly I am lazy, I like to spend the least amount of my time in the gym, so I do try to capitalize on the best bang for the buck...........

Like today, I did pullups (assisted due to being overweight), till I felt my lats being hammered, then I did dips, till I felt them hammered, then bombed calves, then hammered abs, then went out of the gym in about 25 minutes.

I just felt like hitting diffrent groups, as I have not done dips in years, nor pullups....lol

Abs also suck..................Core needs help.............

This isnt science, at my age I am not looking to prove anything, just do some smart training that wont injure me.

Out of all my exercises I kindof feel the dead lift I can do the most of with the injuries I have, and even that, the dead lift is one of the most safest exercises I can pick, due to the fact that I am a pusher and not a puller.

Any time you get to be a bigger pusher than puller you are asking for trouble......

Everyone wants to be a pusher, and some love pulling, but I was stupid growing up and concintrated in only pushing................Stupid..................

Id love to roll back 30 years, but I cant..............

But you can......................lol.................Life is a journey, experiance counts for something!

Cheers


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## fits (Feb 3, 2004)

Life is indeed a journey, i am 29, not achieved massive amounts, or even any amounts in my book lol with regards to lifting weights! I have, before now, dropped 5 stone in weight whilst getting stronger, and weight lifting has stopped me going out and drinking quite so much, taught me MASSIVELY about nutrion, kept me busy (at work) and there is still allot to come.

I have been lifting on and off since i was 14. mostly training on my own. i am 30 neext may and i will be going to thailand, i want to be in the best shape of my life, but I do lack drive these days (to loose weight) I guess we get complacent whilst in relationshiops. I am sitting fialry happy at 15.7 stone. I want to get down to 15stone then i will start adding strength/muscle. I will then try either a pulse or a low dosed dbol cycle....

what dose will you use for yoru pulse? and will you use it only for dead lift days?


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## bren123 (Dec 2, 2008)

i hav just bought methatab 10 mg can any one tell me if their any gd plz thanks


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## jamboo (May 1, 2009)

bren just finished a course on methatab, did 50mg per day and it worked very well, looking forward to hitting it again, ive heard only good things about them which is why i did it. looking to get some more asap!


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## houseoffreak (Apr 18, 2010)

Hi!

What is the side effect?

thanks.

rose


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## Slindog (Oct 6, 2009)

Why, dont you just you low dose oxandrolone 20mg??? Much better drug from something like this


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## criticalbench (Apr 3, 2010)

Slindog said:


> Why, dont you just you low dose oxandrolone 20mg??? Much better drug from something like this


Smart idea, abombs are much stronger but I dont no if I'd be down for running so much dball.. orals make me feel like crap!


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## Swannstarrr (May 30, 2010)

Just read through this and i'm massively confused regarding pct....

I plan to run 15mg a day, 5 days a week for ten weeks.

so I've got 200 5mg d-bol on order (I know i only need 150 but could only get them by the hundred)

but heres the bit i'm worried about when i asked about pct i was told to get two "boxes" of tamoxifen...... as a first time user i have no idea what dosage the tamoxifen will be (5mg,10mg,20mg?) and also how many tabs will be in each box. so i suppose until i actually get hold of the SERMs i wont be able to try and work out a PCT....also would it be worth getting hold of some clomid at this low dose or will the tamox be enough?

any advice would be greatly appreciated

Many thanks, Swannstarrr


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Save those for gyno issues and get some clomid for PCT.


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## Swannstarrr (May 30, 2010)

cheers mate. got the clomid ordered for pct and will be keeping a log for you guys when i start


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## Ash1981 (Jun 16, 2009)

ONE SMART COOKIE said:


> If I was a newbie again I would go back to what I did in the begining and it worked everytime.
> 
> 10-15mg aday for 3-4 weeks with 4 weeks off then repeat.
> 
> ...


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## stri8ted2210 (May 23, 2009)

Hackskii - what would you recommend best taking during cycle to stop shutdown if cycle was 10mg Dbol 5 days on weekends off for 8-10 weeks.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

I dont think you would be too happy with the results.

Clomid for PCT


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## Ash1981 (Jun 16, 2009)

hackskii said:


> I dont think you would be too happy with the results.
> 
> Clomid for PCT


hackskii would you have to workout earlier in the day if taking 15mg dbol in the morning, given the half life of the steroid?


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## sizar (Nov 13, 2008)

i think if you are on injectable as well this could be a good method to keep things ticking


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## pupp (Oct 7, 2010)

Im very interested in this type of cycling. All this talk about pusling, low dosing orals, 2won/off etc. Is very appealing.. But whenever a sceptic chimes in ppl seem to defend the theory by refering to it as the way the former olympians cycled steroids.

I never actually seen any proof. And by proof I mean blood work and a good detailed cycle log. I want to belive that stuff like this work, but yea.


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## MMAGUY (Oct 30, 2010)

I am trying this atm and getting some good results. Just finished week 5. Definately fuller and stronger. Have leaned out quite a bit which is great. No bloat at all.

I am just wondering about something regarding PCT. Ive got some Nolvadex. But no signs of gyno. Should I use this at all? I am also wondering if I should use Clomid once the 10 weeks is up to help get test back up. Its very expensive. Would HCG be better if I can get my hands on it?


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## lukie123 (Nov 20, 2010)

a friend of mine has almost finished a 6 week cycle of 10mg dianabol tabets.

he started off with 3 a day for the first week, and 4 a day the next week, and 5 the next and now he takes 6 a day without fail.. but he is coming off them soon ( after the 6th week) and he thinks he is just going to stop like that. does he need to take something to come of dianabol, to balance his test and estrogen levels, or will it be alright if he just stops, as it is his first cycle?? thankyou.

(he has gained about 10 pounds in 5 weeks, and he thinks he'l only loose maximum off half that when he stops the course) i wana try it myself but am worried about mucking up my hormones or fertility.


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## lukie123 (Nov 20, 2010)

a friend of mine has almost finished a 6 week cycle of 10mg dianabol tabets.

he started off with 3 a day for the first week, and 4 a day the next week, and 5 the next and now he takes 6 a day without fail.. but he is coming off them soon ( after the 6th week) and he thinks he is just going to stop like that. does he need to take something to come of dianabol, to balance his test and estrogen levels, or will it be alright if he just stops, as it is his first cycle?? thankyou

(he has gained about 10 pounds in 5 weeks, and he thinks he'l only loose maximum off half that when he stops the course) i wana try it myself but am worried about mucking up my hormones or fertility.


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## tyson700 (Nov 10, 2010)

I am 22 i wanted to know what would be a good P.C.T after a 10 weeks Danabol cycle at 15mg a day with weekends off ?


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

10 weeks on orals?

That is a bit long IMO

Clomid for 21 days probably would be enough but perhaps not 10 weeks of dbol, but then again 15mg isnt all that much anyway.


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## Ashishparashar (Jan 27, 2011)

If 15 mg dbol taken in the Morning, is it necessary to work out in the AM too, considering the short half life?


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## GolfDelta (Jan 5, 2010)

waynej said:


> alright lad i was just wondering if ya can help me out here i live in liverpool and i am after dainaboll 10 mg ana boll tabs to start my cycle do you know were can i get it from as i dont trust the websides la .. ta and hope to hear soon from ya


Calm down,calm down arrrre laaaaa.Can't ask for sources on here,delete your post or get banned.Find it hard to believe anyone struggles to find any kind of drug in Liverpool tbh.


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## 2H3ENCH4U (May 23, 2012)

waynej said:


> alright lad i was just wondering if ya can help me out here i live in liverpool and i am after dainaboll 10 mg ana boll tabs to start my cycle do you know were can i get it from as i dont trust the websides la .. ta and hope to hear soon from ya


 :nono:

Cant discuss sources or prices on here - forum rules m8 ....


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## chickenlegs (Nov 2, 2011)

2005 thread revival?


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## IGotTekkers (Jun 6, 2012)

Killerkeane said:


> at that dosage, that significantly cuts the risk out too right, for younger people?


Younger people should not even think about it. Why risk all that natty test for 10 or 20mg of dbol? Doesn't make sense.


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## IGotTekkers (Jun 6, 2012)

Ashishparashar said:


> If 15 mg dbol taken in the Morning, is it necessary to work out in the AM too, considering the short half life?


It would certainly be better to train in the morning for the boost dbol gives you, but even so the extra protein synthasis during those hours would still make for a good cycle.


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## musclekick (Aug 6, 2012)

taking db in low dosages as a supplement will still shut you down? right?

i see the sense in the original article and often thought about taking a very low dosage of db on workout days to ensure best growth, say 15mg a day or even constantly braking it up 3x5mg a day

but that would still shut you down i presume


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

musclekick said:


> taking db in low dosages as a supplement will still shut you down? right?
> 
> i see the sense in the original article and often thought about taking a very low dosage of db on workout days to ensure best growth, say 15mg a day or even constantly braking it up 3x5mg a day
> 
> but that would still shut you down i presume


Hard to say, perhaps some, but with some off time probably not even worth mentioning.


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## Lawrence 82 (Jun 1, 2012)

i know this is an old thread guys just wondering if u thought 20mg dbol would be a good add to an already injectable cycle, hour b4 training

dont want the bloat higher doses give u on dbol,

or waste of time ?

current cycle

250mg test

600mg tren

400mg mast


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