# Insulin use



## Hera (May 6, 2011)

I've only recently heard about people using insulin and wondered if anyone could explain it to me? So far all I know is that it's supposed to help push nutrients into the muscles to improve gains. Is this the only reason and is there a risk of developing type II diabetes?


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## Dig (Aug 28, 2007)

*Originally posted by ******, taken from a different forum. *

Who's Afraid of Insulin

by -W-

updated 3/4/08

Who's afraid of insulin? Nearly everybody, it seems. Why? Several reasons:

1. One phrase keeps popping up again and again: "Insulin could kill you." Never mind that a high enough dose of any compound could kill you. Never mind that Insulin is so easy to measure correctly that a trained ape could do it.

2. A misplaced phobia that taking insulin will make you insulin dependent. This bro-ism is akin to the idea that eating fat makes you fat. While there is certain ring of truth to it, this fear is just not logically sound.

3. "Insulin will make you fat." It sure might, but it depends on who "you" are, and how "you" use insulin. Read on.

4. Last, but certainly not least - the key factor to most faulty dogma is this unfortunate tendency steroid board users have to parrot stuff they hear over and over again, without any regard for its logic or truth. It's as if repetition were enough to make something true. Well it's not. So if you can't explain WHY something is true, consider not saying it at all.

Here's the truth about insulin:

Novices shouldn't use it. But not because it's "dangerous". It's dangerous if someone is so damn stupid they can't figure out the correct dose. Or can't figure out whether to use a 3cc syringe or an Insulin Syringe to measure their Insulin. Yes, there is a risk that some none-too-sharp will fill up a U-100 insulin pin to 100 units, thinking it's 10 - but is that enough proof that insulin is evil, to shout "Insulin is dangerous!! It can kill you!!" from the rooftops?

Novice athletes don't need slin because (1) it's not needed at that stage of their development; moreover, (2) if it's not run properly, by an extremely fit, healthy, top-level athlete, it is as likely to make you fat as yield muscular gains. Slin is only well-tolerated by bb'ers in top condition, training frequently and intensely. Why? Because these athletes generally have low bodyfat and good insulin sensitivity in lean muscle tissue. Insulin sensitivity determines whether nutrients will be stored as fat, or used to build muscle. This is what separates the 300lb monsters from the 800lb monsters - how the different tissues respond to this powerful hormone, insulin. Before you use insulin effectively, you must have mastered the two variables that determine your insulin sensitivity. You may have heard of them before: diet, and exercise.

As a side note, I have come to believe that slin alone is of relatively marginal value without GH and/or AAS. Both GH and AAS are powerful partitioning agents, which further swing the anabolic effects of insulin toward muscle tissue. As to the GH/slin combo, I now consider both compounds virtually inseparable, because they are THAT effective together.

The Dangers of Hypoglycemia

Hypoglycemia (low blood sugar) is easily avoided by ingesting a moderate amount of carbs. 10g carb (ANY carb) per iu insulin is more than enough. Still, post training, with the quick spike of a fast-acting insulin like humalog or novorapid, a user may feel some symptoms, such as light-headedness, dizziness, flushing, or sweating. Even so, with doses of 10iu and under, none of us have experienced hypo symptoms that would have been anything close to life-threatening. But we still ate extra carbs above and beyond the 6-10g/iu anyway. Why? Because sane people never take chances with their lives (and I consider myself very sane.) Moreover, the symptoms of hypoglycemia are unpleasant, and we like to avoid them.

It is fairly well-documented that 5-10 iu insulin alone is not enough to be life-threatening, even without ingestion of carbohydrates. FACT: Although it is difficult to pin down exactly what a lethal dose of insulin is, due to individual insulin sensitivity and other factors such as the type of insulin used, a lethal dose has been estimated as high as between 800 and 3,200 iu. 1

Now, despite the shockingly high number, doses of this kind are insane for any healthy individual. For example, many bb'ers experience mild hypo symptoms on very low doses of insulin, such as 10iu. Why is this?

1. Many bb'ers are in excellent condition, with very high insulin sensitivity - the better shape you are in, the more powerful insulin becomes.

2. The most popular time for insulin dosing is post-training, when blood sugar may already be fairly low, and quick energy stores depleted.

So, bottom line on the dangers of hypoglycemia:

1. Dose correctly - make sure you use a short-acting insulin, and know how to measure insulin with proper syringes, etc.

2. Dose moderately (6-10iu) for beginning to intermediate users - start low and work up

3. Consume 7-10g carbohydrates per unit insulin

4. If you've done 1-3 correctly, you have nothing to fear but fear itself

Remember, in the end, we are talking about non-lethal doses, taken in conjunction with more than adequate carbs. Can we finally let the "insulin kills" dogma die?

Insulin Dependence

Not only is dangerous hypoglycemia a non-issue for the slin user that took the time to do 5 minutes worth of learning (as posted above), but long term insulin dependence is a non-issue if a moderate protocol is used. If you're taking 20iu slin 3x ED, I wouldn't comment on what you may be doing in terms of your health.

The truth is, moderate use of insulin will not burn out pancreatic beta cells and cause insulin-dependent diabetes. In fact, just the opposite. Exogenous insulin use will actually protect the beta cells from burnout, because the pancreas no longer has to work in overdrive to crank out enough insulin to store away the massive levels of carbohydrates we force into our systems, especially around training sessions. There is at least one individual who uses insulin for life extension purposes in this manner, though he is not a bodybuilder, diabetic, or a scientist - he's just a regular guy, improving his life by injecting regular small amounts of insulin with his food. His use is well-documented online, and I highly recommend you take a look. 2

Insulin Resistance

The other long term risk attribute to insulin use is insulin resistance. This is the most accurate of the accusations against insulin use, and I do actually feel that caution is warranted.

However, the fear is blown out of proportion, and needs to be analyzed in context. When one ingests a large quantity of carbohydrates, the body must produce enough insulin to shuttle the resulting glucose, in order to keep blood sugar levels in a safe range. The only difference is where the insulin comes from, the pancreas, or a vial. The exposure is the same, except that exogenous insulin is delivered all at once, in a spike. This is highly unlikely, given the responses we know from the body's other systems and hormones to result in significantly more insulin resistance than the same amount of insulin spread over a longer period of time. In fact, the resistance might even be less with exogenous administration.

And again, as discussed in the last section, exogenous insulin actually protects the pancreas from burnout, as opposed to forcing the body to crank out insulin on short notice to clear the bloodstream of massive quantities of sugars.

Bottom line: diet and training plays a far bigger role in insulin sensitivity/resistance than moderate insulin use.

-------------------

The main fears about insulin - deadly hypoglycemia, insulin dependence, and insulin resistance - are misunderstood and greatly exaggerated. One good thing about these fears is perhaps they act as a gatekeeper to prevent the ignorant and uninformed from making stupid mistakes. Another good thing is perhaps keeping out those who have not yet attained the requisite level of development to obtain the benefits of insulin.

Once we've handled our fears, our diets, AND our training - only then can we begin to ask the important questions, like when and how should one use insulin. I'll pick up the discussion there at a later date.


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## Guest (May 8, 2011)

you sure you need insulin to meet your goals? ive not used insulin because i get alot out of aas and some people who use insulin to gain tend to gain alot of fat along with muscle. depends alot on metabolism and diet. insulin is probably the most anabolic hormone in your body but you can use diet to produce great results along with the right aas if needed.


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## Guest (May 8, 2011)

i think pscarb is the most experienced guy on this forum (not meaning to offend anybody else!) and i think i read somewhere that he prepped either a female bodybuilder or a figure competitor (not sure if what your goals are) so it would be worth asking him for advice because he has alot of experience and knowledge from what ive read.


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## Dig (Aug 28, 2007)

ricky23 said:


> you sure you need insulin to meet your goals? ive not used insulin because i get alot out of aas and some people who use insulin to gain tend to gain alot of fat along with muscle. depends alot on metabolism and diet. insulin is probably the most anabolic hormone in your body but you can use diet to produce great results along with the right aas if needed.


Asking for information about something doesnt neccessarily mean that person is going to actually use it, Katy didnt actually mention anything about using it....


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## Craig660 (Dec 8, 2005)

Didnt rate it when I used it, I used novo rapid post workout


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## Guest (May 8, 2011)

Dig said:


> Asking for information about something doesnt neccessarily mean that person is going to actually use it, Katy didnt actually mention anything about using it....


sorry was just trying to help, got the impression that op was interested in using it, not saying thats wrong but might be unnecessary


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## yannyboy (Jun 20, 2009)

I've used it on/off for 6 months and I have always got gains from it but it is very easy to put unwanted fat on aswell if diet is not in check. Meals after insulin jab need to be times quite well.


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## Hera (May 6, 2011)

Dig said:


> Asking for information about something doesnt neccessarily mean that person is going to actually use it, Katy didnt actually mention anything about using it....


Yeah, I'm not wanting to use it. I was hoping that someone could enlighten me on the biological theory behind it all. I'm just curious really 

I apprecaite the rather large first response but I feel that it focuses on addressing fears of insulin use and not on the biology behing why people use it....


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## MRSTRONG (Apr 18, 2009)

i too am very interested in the stuff so anybody with first hand knowledge please help the girl out


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## xeonedbody (Aug 28, 2009)

Katy said:


> I've only recently heard about people using insulin and wondered if anyone could explain it to me? So far all I know is that it's supposed to help push nutrients into the muscles to improve gains. Is this the only reason and is there a risk of developing type II diabetes?


Insulin is naturally produced by the body to push nutrients into muscles, organs etc. People use insulin for better absorption as u mentioned therefore the muscles are better fed and this would aid recovery and growth via more efficient utilization of nutrients available.

But the muscles will only uptake as much nutrients as they need. Once that limit has been reached the insulin will store any excess food as fat.

Type II diabetes is where the tissues in the body become resistant to insulin and fail to absorb the nutrients. To treat this, people use metformin.

Type I diabetes is where the pancreas in the body stop producing insulin and insulin is prescribed in this case to treat the condition.

Hope this helps


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## xeonedbody (Aug 28, 2009)

Also, an example of how insulin works...people take fast acting sugars e.g Dextrose post workout in order to spike insulin levels.

The insulin released is responsible for carrying the protein into the muscles.


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## SteamRod (Oct 1, 2007)

take some ALA with the slin to increase senesetivity.

I would not risk running slin in a calorie surpluss and defo not with more cho than is required.


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## Hera (May 6, 2011)

xeonedbody said:


> Insulin is naturally produced by the body to push nutrients into muscles, organs etc. People use insulin for better absorption as u mentioned therefore the muscles are better fed and this would aid recovery and growth via more efficient utilization of nutrients available.
> 
> But the muscles will only uptake as much nutrients as they need. Once that limit has been reached the insulin will store any excess food as fat.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the reply. So essentially it is used to push nutrients into the muscle...so helps with muscle gain...but carries the risk of increasing fat storage if the muscles are 'full'?


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## xeonedbody (Aug 28, 2009)

Katy said:


> Thanks for the reply. So essentially it is used to push nutrients into the muscle...so helps with muscle gain...but carries the risk of increasing fat storage if the muscles are 'full'?


yes. Insulin is a 'storage hormone' and can lead to gaining fat. I do hear a lot of people who use insulin ending up gaining fat.

To avoid this from happening the user needs to be careful with the diet. User would need to ensure that carbs, fats etc taken are in line with their requirements and the excess is as low as possible. However the user would also need to ensure that they are not too low with carbs etc as that will lead to hypoglycemia (very low blood glucose levels).

If the blood glucose level drops too low, it can result in very serious problems such as shakiness, nausea, vomiting and even coma therefore Insulin and its usage, dosage, timing etc needs to be understood in depth prior to usage.

If somebody is considering using insulin to achieve better absorption of nutrients by the muscles, i would suggest using ALA (Alpha Lipoic Acid) or Metformin before jumping to inuslin.


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## m118 (Feb 4, 2011)

Katy said:


> Thanks for the reply. So essentially it is used to push nutrients into the muscle...so helps with muscle gain...but carries the risk of increasing fat storage if the muscles are 'full'?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insulin

the 1st paragraph is useful.


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

m118 said:


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insulin
> 
> the 1st paragraph is useful.


Actually its PHSYIOLOGICAL EFFECTS section that is more useful:

In a Cyclic Ketogenic Diet, Insulin can HELP with wieght loss, because, insulin can-

-Decreased proteolysis - decreasing the breakdown of protein

-Decreased gluconeogenesis - decreases production of glucose from nonsugar substrates, primarily in the liver (the vast majority of endogenous insulin arriving at the liver never leaves the liver); lack of insulin causes glucose production from assorted substrates in the liver and elsewhere.

So when you try a CKD diet, when you start zero carbs, you reduce glycolysis (burning of carbs for energy), the body then starts forming glucose from amino acids (gluconeogenesis). You can stay at this level for a fair while (days) and not go into ketogenesis (burning ketones made from free fatty acids) which is when you actually lose weight; taking insulin stops this, and pushes you into ketogenesis faster (better for fat burning on the keto diet). While this is happening, insulin REDUCES the breakdown of protein (muscle)..so muscle is not burned for energy in gluconeogenesis..

So, if you're a person following a CKD diet, adminstering Insulin at low doses (with NO carbs) gets you into ketosis quicker, and preserves more muscle...

For Bulking up:

The actions of insulin on the global human metabolism level include:

-Control of cellular intake of certain substances, most prominently glucose in muscle and adipose (fat) tissue (about two-thirds of body cells)

-Increase of DNA replication and protein synthesis via control of amino acid uptake

-Modification of the activity of numerous enzymes

also:

-Increased amino acid uptake - forces cells to absorb circulating amino acids; lack of insulin inhibits absorption.

-Decreased proteolysis - decreasing the breakdown of protein

-Increased lipid synthesis - insulin forces fat cells to take in blood lipids, which are converted to triglycerides; lack of insulin causes the reverse

-Increased potassium uptake - forces cells to absorb serum potassium; lack of insulin inhibits absorption. Insulin's increase in cellular potassium uptake lowers potassium levels in blood.

MORE IMPORTANTLY FOR TESTOSTERONE:

-even natural testosterone is 97-99% bound (unable to impart its message) by Sex Hormone Binding Globulin (SHBG), and even more of a concern for AAS users, as the same happens to what is injected/swallowed.... BUT:

SHBG levels appear to be controlled by a delicate balance of enhancing and inhibiting factors. Its level is decreased by high levels of insulin and insulin-like growth factor 1 (IGF-1) (see:milk). Also, high androgen and transcortin levels decrease SHBG, whereas high growth hormone, estrogen, and thyroxine levels increase it.

(from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_hormone-binding_globulin)

also:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7962291

so when you're bulking, insulin stops muscle breakdown, pushes aminos and sugar into your cells, and reduces the levels of SHBG, meaning your AAS work better...

I've used novorapid for both dieting and bulking, and can say its amazing in both capacities...


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## MRSTRONG (Apr 18, 2009)

excellent post ausbuilt so how would insulin be taken for bulking ? is there a pre determined safe iu or is that worked out by bodyweight ?

also is it correct that meals consisting of carbs/fats/protein need to be taken at the same time or within time period to make insulin use safe .


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

uhan said:


> excellent post ausbuilt so how would insulin be taken for bulking ? is there a pre determined safe iu or is that worked out by bodyweight ? bit of both.. and more...
> 
> if you've never done insulin before, then 5iu is a reasonable starting point per dose. If you've done it once or twice before, then 6-8 iu per dose, and if you're experienced, 8-15iu is not uncommon.
> 
> ...


Insulin is safe as long as you're aware of your BG reading, AND ALWAYS carry some SIMPLE CARBS with you (stash some in your car, another stash in your work, another in your pocket (eg lucozade tabs). You can't get into a hypoglyceamic coma if you eat sugar.. or drink it (OJ, COKE- the regular version, NOT diet).


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## MRSTRONG (Apr 18, 2009)

thanks great post

im not looking at using insulin until i get it right but i am wanting to use it with aas as a bulking/strength gain cycle or as a bridge between aas.

so for example i have 6 meals a day but i train at 7pm-10pm

so if i took

6-8iu at meal 1

6-8iu at meal 3

6-8iu at meal 5----pre workout

but would need the carbs in meal 1-3-5 to be simple carbs not complex ? or to have my oats as in meal 1 but also have extra 60-80g of simple carbs too and apply that to all dosage times .

im i near the money with that ?


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

uhan said:


> thanks great post
> 
> im not looking at using insulin until i get it right but i am wanting to use it with aas as a bulking/strength gain cycle or as a bridge between aas.
> 
> ...


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## MRSTRONG (Apr 18, 2009)

thanks makes sense


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## Stallion23 (Apr 18, 2011)

I have always looked fascineted to those using slin for BBing purposes or for anti-aging. The reason why I would definitelly avoid it..and it is a reason that rarely people mention, is that the endogenous wave of insulin which make that great impact on the muscle, it is likely to induce on a long term insulin resistance. What I mean it is that you give to the insul muscles receptors the same effect of eating 5 Kg of chocolate each time...these big shots of insulin will tend to make those receptors less responsive to insulin....which is the way many people in the western world are obese and get type 2 diabetes.


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## xpower (Jul 28, 2009)

PWO is the only time I use slin


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## MRSTRONG (Apr 18, 2009)

xpower said:


> PWO is the only time I use slin


i train for strength not for bodybuilding do you think that would make any difference ?

also how would you suggest i used it PWO only ? IU`S and carb`s and the like ?

thanks


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## xpower (Jul 28, 2009)

@ the moment I'm using 2iu carbless PWO with 75g isolate.

Shoves the aminos in without the need for carbs.

No carbs then till the next day.(be carefull a 1iu may be enough)

If using carbs PWO I don't go over 6-8iu with 10g of carbs per iu.

Will it make a difference?????????

get a Blood glucose monitor,find your dose then asses for 4-8 weeks

Certainly fills the old fibres even withoit carbs.


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## MRSTRONG (Apr 18, 2009)

xpower said:


> @ the moment I'm using 2iu carbless PWO with 75g isolate.
> 
> Shoves the aminos in without the need for carbs.
> 
> ...


thanks for reply certainly food for thought


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## energize17 (Jul 25, 2009)

Man I want to use slin

May use it in the near future as I've be contemplating using it for over a year now but always found an excuse not to


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## xpower (Jul 28, 2009)

Just remember to keep an eye on BC levels.

Used well strength should improve with the fullness you'll get

Check out Dats forum for a full description of the protocol


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## xpower (Jul 28, 2009)

http://www.datbtrue.co.uk/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=57 so much to read so little time


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## MRSTRONG (Apr 18, 2009)

xpower said:


> http://www.datbtrue.co.uk/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=57 so much to read so little time


good post thanks

would you use it with gear or bridge between aas cycles or just run it year round ?


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## xpower (Jul 28, 2009)

I B&C so couldn't honestly comment mate

but...

IMO gear/gh(or peps)with slin work wonders


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## MRSTRONG (Apr 18, 2009)

ive been thinking of b&c for a while now so it is something i will try also looked in to hgh blasts with peps in the bit between blasts but slin would be by far the cheaper option and hardest to get right . good info thanks


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## xpower (Jul 28, 2009)

uhan said:


> ive been thinking of b&c for a while now so it is something i will try also looked in to hgh blasts with peps in the bit between blasts but slin would be by far the cheaper option and hardest to get right . good info thanks


 No probs mate.

As always read,re-read research then you are armed with the needed info should it go tits up


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## Joshua (Aug 21, 2008)

Stallion23 said:


> I have always looked fascineted to those using slin for BBing purposes or for anti-aging. The reason why I would definitelly avoid it..and it is a reason that rarely people mention, is that the endogenous wave of insulin which make that great impact on the muscle, it is likely to induce on a long term insulin resistance. What I mean it is that you give to the insul muscles receptors the same effect of eating 5 Kg of chocolate each time...these big shots of insulin will tend to make those receptors less responsive to insulin....which is the way many people in the western world are obese and get type 2 diabetes.


Incorrect.

Insulin resistance is down to a lot of things, although acute insulin signalling is not one of them per se. Glucose load is however.

Adipose tissue is an endocrine organ in many respects, secreting chemical messengers (the adipokines). Dysregulation of many of those can contribute to insulin resistance, as can excessive glucose loads which cannot be disposed of. Do a search on "metabolic syndrome" for a background on the mechanisms involved.

BTW, I think you are getting mixed up with endogenous & exogenous.

Endogenous = internally generated eg pancreatic derived insulin

Exogenous = externally generated eg insulin from a slin pen.

J


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## MRSTRONG (Apr 18, 2009)

xpower said:


> No probs mate.
> 
> As always read,re-read research then you are armed with the needed info should it go tits up


yeah its a mine field m8 speaking to guys like you and ausbuilt simplify things thanks


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## Joshua (Aug 21, 2008)

Katy said:


> Thanks for the reply. So essentially it is used to push nutrients into the muscle...so helps with muscle gain...but carries the risk of increasing fat storage if the muscles are 'full'?


Insulin activates one of the main pathways in signalling protein synthesis (ToR), as well as some others more minor ones, and as such it is pretty critical to muscle growth. Its anabolic / storage effects are not restricted to skeletal muscle though, and the effects will be mainly dependant on what nutrients are sloshing around at the same time as the insulin, hence the tendency for so many people to get fat when using it.

J


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

xpower said:


> http://www.datbtrue.co.uk/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=57 so much to read so little time


best forum on the web- its where I got a lot of my insulin & pep knowledge from


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## Stallion23 (Apr 18, 2011)

Joshua said:


> Incorrect.
> 
> Insulin resistance is down to a lot of things, although acute insulin signalling is not one of them per se. Glucose load is however.
> 
> ...


Yeah, sorry for the endogenous exongenous just a typing mistake.

I agree with part of it, I mean it is true what you say. Not sure that an overload of slin on the receptors would do benifit!

Thanks anyway for the explanation!


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## Joshua (Aug 21, 2008)

Stallion23 said:


> Yeah, sorry for the endogenous exongenous just a typing mistake.
> 
> I agree with part of it, I mean it is true what you say. Not sure that an overload of slin on the receptors would do benifit!
> 
> Thanks anyway for the explanation!


I was not advocating overloading slin. I believe that users should use the amount necessary to stimulate the amount of signalling required. Any extra can cause effects counter to ones goals. All I was getting at was that exogenous slin use in itself does not lead to insulin resistance.

J


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## MRSTRONG (Apr 18, 2009)

Joshua said:


> I was not advocating overloading slin. I believe that users should use the amount necessary to stimulate the amount of signalling required. Any extra can cause effects counter to ones goals. All I was getting at was that exogenous slin use in itself does not lead to insulin resistance.
> 
> J


am i right in thinking that a tablet can be taken to increase insulin sensitivity and its safer/easier to use ?


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## Gee-bol (Jul 2, 2009)

was gonna start my own thread with regards to slkin but i guess ill just post here..

i have used slin post work out and it didnt do much for me...was thinking of running a small amount with each meal so 4/5 iu 6 x daily..any body have any experience with this type of protocol?


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## MRSTRONG (Apr 18, 2009)

Gee-bol said:


> was gonna start my own thread with regards to slkin but i guess ill just post here..
> 
> i have used slin post work out and it didnt do much for me...was thinking of running a small amount with each meal so 4/5 iu 6 x daily..any body have any experience with this type of protocol?


read ausbuilt`s earlier post m8 he stated something similar .

out of interest how exactly did you run it ?

if you wouldnt mind going into detail for me/us thanks


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

uhan said:


> am i right in thinking that a tablet can be taken to increase insulin sensitivity and its safer/easier to use ?


metformin increases sensitivity to your endogenous insulin.

If you want to have increased sensitivty for use of exogenous insulin, i think avandia is a better choice.



Gee-bol said:


> was gonna start my own thread with regards to slkin but i guess ill just post here..
> 
> i have used slin post work out and it didnt do much for me...was thinking of running a small amount with each meal so 4/5 iu 6 x daily..any body have any experience with this type of protocol?


i think 6xday is to much work.. as you have your initial peak 20-30min, where you need 10g carbs/iu, then usually at 60-90mins later you have another peak where you need 5g carbs/iu (poss less, its individual).

I find coping with the food for the two peaks, (and keep working) on 3x day is enough to cope with... but if you don't work, I guess taking half the usual amount 6 times per day (instead of 8-10iu 3x day) is something you may want to try, but i don't see any advantage.

Certainly 1 dose/day post workout is not enough.


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## MRSTRONG (Apr 18, 2009)

ausbuilt said:


> metformin increases sensitivity to your endogenous insulin.
> 
> If you want to have increased sensitivty for use of exogenous insulin, i think avandia is a better choice.


thanks 

would you say avandia is a route towards using insulin as a kind of introduction ?


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## Gee-bol (Jul 2, 2009)

ausbuilt,when would your second shot be taken? with your last meal before you train?


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## Gee-bol (Jul 2, 2009)

uhan said:


> read ausbuilt`s earlier post m8 he stated something similar .
> 
> out of interest how exactly did you run it ?
> 
> if you wouldnt mind going into detail for me/us thanks


i ran 10iu a couple of ways post workout..first was with pwo shake second was with pwo meal about an hour after i would have my shake..didnt notice much from either apart from a bit water gain


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

Gee-bol said:


> ausbuilt,when would your second shot be taken? with your last meal before you train?


I weight train evenings, so I take 1 shot with breakfast, one with lunch the next post workout. If you workout mornings, take post workout, then lunch, then dinner. you get the idea.



Gee-bol said:


> i ran 10iu a couple of ways post workout..first was with pwo shake second was with pwo meal about an hour after i would have my shake..didnt notice much from either apart from a bit water gain


10iu/day post workout is just not enough benefit. If you take 3xday with 50g WPI with the carbs each time (yes EACH time,as after the shot, and an hour later with the lower gi carb meal of 5g carbs/iu) you wil DEF see results in 2 weeks.. and its not water.. As I've said before, I also take creatine with each shot.. because thats the BEST way to take creatine....the supplement companies don't promote that.. but its better than just taking creatine with sugar... insulin DRIVES the creatine into the cells..


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## MRSTRONG (Apr 18, 2009)

ausbuilt said:


> I weight train evenings, so I take 1 shot with breakfast, one with lunch the next post workout. If you workout mornings, take post workout, then lunch, then dinner. you get the idea.
> 
> 10iu/day post workout is just not enough benefit. If you take 3xday with 50g WPI with the carbs each time (yes EACH time,as after the shot, and an hour later with the lower gi carb meal of 5g carbs/iu) you wil DEF see results in 2 weeks.. and its not water.. As I've said before, I also take creatine with each shot.. because thats the BEST way to take creatine....the supplement companies don't promote that.. but its better than just taking creatine with sugar... insulin DRIVES the creatine into the cells..


funny how i understand things that are worded like that easier than the techie mumbo lol


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## Gee-bol (Jul 2, 2009)

ausbuilt said:


> I weight train evenings, so I take 1 shot with breakfast, one with lunch the next post workout. If you workout mornings, take post workout, then lunch, then dinner. you get the idea.
> 
> 10iu/day post workout is just not enough benefit. If you take 3xday with 50g WPI with the carbs each time (yes EACH time,as after the shot, and an hour later with the lower gi carb meal of 5g carbs/iu) you wil DEF see results in 2 weeks.. and its not water.. As I've said before, I also take creatine with each shot.. because thats the BEST way to take creatine....the supplement companies don't promote that.. but its better than just taking creatine with sugar... insulin DRIVES the creatine into the cells..


thanks for the info mate.one more question..for breakfast i would normally have 100gs oats couple scoops of whey and whole milk then wouldnt normally eat again for 2 hours...what lower gi carb meal would you recommend an hour later?


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

Gee-bol said:


> thanks for the info mate.one more question..for breakfast i would normally have 100gs oats couple scoops of whey and whole milk then wouldnt normally eat again for 2 hours...what lower gi carb meal would you recommend an hour later?


well you could just mix your whey with OJ (usually 16g carbs/100mL) to get your simple carbs, or have some white toast and jam in addition to your regular breakfast. usually the 2nd peak is an hour later rather than 2 hours later. A banana usually works with a whey shake; or you could split your breakfast oats into two portions and have the 2nd one an hour later..


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## Gee-bol (Jul 2, 2009)

ausbuilt said:


> well you could just mix your whey with OJ (usually 16g carbs/100mL) to get your simple carbs, or have some white toast and jam in addition to your regular breakfast. usually the 2nd peak is an hour later rather than 2 hours later. A banana usually works with a whey shake; or you could split your breakfast oats into two portions and have the 2nd one an hour later..


thanks alot mate,gonna give this a try from next week..still have my novo in the fridge.


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## Joshua (Aug 21, 2008)

uhan said:


> am i right in thinking that a tablet can be taken to increase insulin sensitivity and its safer/easier to use ?


You should not have problems with Insulin Sensitivity if you are exercising hard and have a clean diet.

Metformin will have a small effect compared to having a big daily glucose sink eg( tabatas ) and simply avoiding high GI carbs [iMO].

J


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## SteamRod (Oct 1, 2007)

I like ALA with my slin.


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## MRSTRONG (Apr 18, 2009)

Joshua said:


> You should not have problems with Insulin Sensitivity if you are exercising hard and have a clean diet.
> 
> Metformin will have a small effect compared to having a big daily glucose sink eg( tabatas ) and simply avoiding high GI carbs [iMO].
> 
> J


thanks for reply as it shows im complete newbie to slin so im trying to make sense of it in a way i understand lol

like when you said insulin will shuttle whatever nutrients are sloshing round at the time - made perfect sense then to eat clean rather than me trying to decode a technical phrase and the like .


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## yannyboy (Jun 20, 2009)

I use HumulinR which is not quite as fast as Humulog, it has about a 5-6 hour span. I train in the morning about an hour after breakfast and only take one shot post work out of 16iu's. Follow this with my PWO shake, another meal about an hour later then another meal 2 hours after that. I've made loads of gains from using it this way.


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## The Ultimate Warrior (Dec 20, 2010)

Recently found this out myself, creatine with insulin is awesome, and definatly the best way to run creatine, normally don't take it. Also taking L-Glutamine aswell.

I have never taken it before, but went straight in with 20IU's a day, and am now using it 30IU's a day, and will stay there. Well I should say on training days.

I train Monday; wednesday; friday.

Take 10IU's pre-workout with 100g carbs and 50g protein

Take 10IU's post-workout with 100g carbs and 50g protein

Take 10IU's in my next meal with 100g carbs and 50g protein

Then I eat keto for the rest of the day, well I say keto, I just eat protein for the rest of the day.

Working a TREAT!

JP


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## energize17 (Jul 25, 2009)

JPaycheck said:


> Recently found this out myself, creatine with insulin is awesome, and definatly the best way to run creatine, normally don't take it. Also taking L-Glutamine aswell.
> 
> I have never taken it before, but went straight in with 20IU's a day, and am now using it 30IU's a day, and will stay there. Well I should say on training days.
> 
> ...


how many mins pre workout do you take your pre workout shot?

this looks like an intresting protocol may use this in the future


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## The Ultimate Warrior (Dec 20, 2010)

energize17 said:


> how many mins pre workout do you take your pre workout shot?
> 
> this looks like an intresting protocol may use this in the future


It varies between 45 mins and 30 mins, but never noticed any difference to be honest with you.

It certainly entertains me


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## MRSTRONG (Apr 18, 2009)

JPaycheck said:


> Recently found this out myself, creatine with insulin is awesome, and definatly the best way to run creatine, normally don't take it. Also taking L-Glutamine aswell.
> 
> I have never taken it before, but went straight in with 20IU's a day, and am now using it 30IU's a day, and will stay there. Well I should say on training days.
> 
> ...


are these all simple carbs then or a mix of simple/complex ?


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## The Ultimate Warrior (Dec 20, 2010)

uhan said:


> are these all simple carbs then or a mix of simple/complex ?


Again they vary, I have a list of foods that I eat and just select what I want from the list to get to my macronutrient values for each meal.

They generally consist of a good mixture, but sometimes are all complex. Again I really havn't noticed the difference either way.


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