# Rep range for building size



## TYSON

*REP RANGE FOR BUILDING SIZE*​
REPS 6 - 837440.22%REPS 6 - 1039942.90%OTHER15716.88%


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## TYSON

For many years i was a beleiver that reps in the range of 6 - 8 heavy was the way to go to build size, after joining uk muscle my thoughts on this changed a little over time and i changed to 6 - 10 reps. Basically as soon as i hit 10 reps i would drop back to 6 reps and add weight and so on. I used this system for the 6 - 8 range as well.

I do not know which way is better but personally i still think that 6 - 8 reps is better for adding on the muscle, also as long as the weights are raised very slightly you should lift heavier quicker using this system.

Basically i thought i would put up a poll to see how opinions vary on this.


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## big

3-5 reps, definitely.


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## DB

8 reps is the sweet spot for me and 12 reps on legs... just a personal thing i think tho


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## Jock

4-6 reps for me, currently on 5x5 and gaining well.....


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## samurai691436114498

Between 4 and 10 reps, 15 for legs, 25+ for calfs


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## TYSON

That all confirms my thoughts, cheers lads, i think i will drop down to 8 max...ive heard of the 5 rep idea but i dont think you would get a good pump but if it works then why not


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## Lee1436114491

6-8 for me


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## ChefX

using a base of 1x2x I would say

1-3 strength

4-8 strength and size

8-12 size

13-20 size and endurance

21 and up pure endurance

but it varies per person slightly and goals, other factors are diet 9example someone who eats less carbs, take creatine and other items to create satelite cells will be able to lift more weight with strength and endurance than someone else)

ect ect

IMO


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## BSF James

I'm not sure if I believe its as cut and dry as one particular rep range is best for building size.

There are bodybuilders with tremendous physiques who've always trained with high reps. Just as there are great physiques that have come from doing many sets and also few sets (volume vs HIT).

Personally I think a variety works best. I believe in doing high rep and low rep workouts either in rotation or in training mesocycles. I think a variety of rep ranges is the only way to maximise gains in both fast and slow twitch fibres.

For strength, however, from experience I believe 5x5 works best.


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## Carnivore

ChefX said:


> using a base of 1x2x I would say
> 
> 1-3 strength
> 
> 4-8 strength and size
> 
> 8-12 size
> 
> 13-20 size and endurance
> 
> 21 and up pure endurance
> 
> but it varies per person slightly and goals, other factors are diet 9example someone who eats less carbs, take creatine and other items to create satelite cells will be able to lift more weight with strength and endurance than someone else)
> 
> ect ect
> 
> IMO


wot he said, what works best for me is 8-10


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## hackskii

silentbob said:


> I'm not sure if I believe its as cut and dry as one particular rep range is best for building size.
> 
> There are bodybuilders with tremendous physiques who've always trained with high reps. Just as there are great physiques that have come from doing many sets and also few sets (volume vs HIT).
> 
> Personally I think a variety works best. I believe in doing high rep and low rep workouts either in rotation or in training mesocycles. I think a variety of rep ranges is the only way to maximise gains in both fast and slow twitch fibres.
> 
> For strength, however, from experience I believe 5x5 works best.


Excellant post Silent.

I agree with this.


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## megatron

The nutters from the 70's used to do insane amounts of reps. they looked great.


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## robdog

silentbob said:


> I'm not sure if I believe its as cut and dry as one particular rep range is best for building size.
> 
> There are bodybuilders with tremendous physiques who've always trained with high reps. Just as there are great physiques that have come from doing many sets and also few sets (volume vs HIT).
> 
> Personally I think a variety works best. I believe in doing high rep and low rep workouts either in rotation or in training mesocycles. I think a variety of rep ranges is the only way to maximise gains in both fast and slow twitch fibres.
> 
> For strength, however, from experience I believe 5x5 works best.


Bang on the money there mate.

Some weeks i may do 5x5 then other week 4 x 20 reps for whatever im doing. Variety imo is key.

Same with your excersise choice imo. Peope sometimes ask me what my routine is and i answer i havet got one and its true. I do what i feel like.


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## BSF James

Aha - the weider instinctive training principle!? Just like the weider anykindoftrainingeverinvented principle.

Seriously though, I think its great to have that attitude to training and keep changing it up. I tend to keep the core exercises like bench, squat etc.. the same (more than anything so I can track progress and increases in lifting) and change the additional exercises around every week or two.

I also find that some days you feel stronger than others (a guy who used to train at our gym used to talk to me about bio-rythms which are apparently to blame for this). You can incorporate/make allowances for this, by being instinctive and on the strong days doing higher weight for lower reps and on the weaker days taking a slightly lower weight and banging more reps out.


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## hackskii

I totally agree silent.

Although it is easy to blame bio-rythms, could be very well glycogen depletion, not being focused, not enough sleep, stress.

Sometimes when I go to the gym, my mind is so not there that I just end up leaving after a couple of sets.

Other times I dont want to go so I end up going and pick my favorite exercise then I can get into it.

Attitude amounts for alot.


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## Jimmy1

silentbob said:


> I'm not sure if I believe its as cut and dry as one particular rep range is best for building size.
> 
> There are bodybuilders with tremendous physiques who've always trained with high reps. Just as there are great physiques that have come from doing many sets and also few sets (volume vs HIT).
> 
> Personally I think a variety works best. I believe in doing high rep and low rep workouts either in rotation or in training mesocycles. I think a variety of rep ranges is the only way to maximise gains in both fast and slow twitch fibres.
> 
> For strength, however, from experience I believe 5x5 works best.


rep points for you dude :beer1:


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## Jimmy1

i fight injury all the time so i opt for 10-15

i will go as low as 6-8 if the workout is going well but TBH i only feel like i have been training correctly if my reps are high and I squeeze each rep

i even like half reps for that constant contraction feeling


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## winger

I cycle reps and excercises every two workouts. But like Silentbob said I stick to basic compound movements.


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## Cookie

I think your all wrong.........:lift:   and there is a perfect rep range


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## samurai691436114498

ONE SMART COOKIE said:


> I think your all wrong.........:lift:   and there is a perfect rep range


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## winger

ONE SMART COOKIE said:


> I think your all wrong.........:lift:   and there is a perfect rep range


Oh do tell Zen Master. :spammer:


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## Carnivore

ONE SMART COOKIE said:


> I think your all wrong.........:lift:   and there is a perfect rep range


hints to us he has the answer to life and then pi$$es off!


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## winger

Yea cookie, you are just a big tease.


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## Cookie

winger said:


> Oh do tell Zen Master. :spammer:


Thats right winger baby zen master is happening..but we`ll chat about that later on msn



> hints to us he has the answer to life and then pi$es off!


Ckeeky young pup...little more respect to your elders and betters or I wont tell you naff all...I`ll just take my bat and ball home..:eek:



> Yea cookie, you are just a big tease.


More than you know..............

Here you all go..happy reading..theres a lot of it..lmao.....

http://t-nation.com/readTopic.do;jsessionid=40A65E45652C7BA3225883843500C1CB.hydra?id=651322&pageNo=0


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## winger

Bump for later read, but I skimmed it and I am not impressed. I did 20 reps and tried that for a while and all I did was loose strength and if anything I lost size. All of us are different and I still stand by hiit training. The more you lift the bigger you get. I have yet to see a small 500 lb bencher. Can anyone point one out for me please?


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## Cookie

winger said:


> Bump for later read, but I skimmed it and I am not impressed. I did 20 reps and tried that for a while and all I did was loose strength and if anything I lost size. All of us are different and I still stand by hiit training. The more you lift the bigger you get. I have yet to see a small 500 lb bencher. Can anyone point one out for me please?


I think you need to read it "PROPERLY" as you`ve just made assumtions about it and got it "TOTALLY" wrong...............


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## samurai691436114498

so hence 5x5 = 25, or 8 sets of 3 = 24, Right??, is that also totals per Body Part or Per exercise

It was only a skim through, in answer to wingers point, but is that along the right lines???


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## big

samurai69 said:


> so hence 5x5 = 25, or 8 sets of 3 = 24, Right??, is that also totals per Body Part or Per exercise
> 
> It was only a skim through, in answer to wingers point, but is that along the right lines???


Yes.

I've read that one before, along with most other articles Chad puts out. I like Chad's writings. He advocates that much volume but NOT to failure. In fact, if you're doing 8 sets of 3 with only 80% of your 1RM, you're a long, long way from failure. I tend to lean the other way for most beginner/intermediate trainees and encourage far less volume, but with more of an emphasis on how to work progressive resistance, as this is the key IMO. The only things really missing from the article is deloading phases (which ARE needed when doing that amount of volume) and progressive resistance.

The idea behind a volume routine like that, is that you'd load up and bring yourself to the point of overtraining (even overtrain slightly), and when you deload is when your strength would actually increase - with the rebound effect from overtraining (i.e. what bodybuilders traditionally see when they take a week off, and then typically mistake that week off for lesser frequency being the answer).

I wholeheartedly disagree with his statement that anything under this magical "24" number will fail to give hypertrophy though. Most of the guys doing WSB, are only doing 1-3 work sets with 1-3 reps. And they sure seem to get plenty of hypertrophy. Not to mention all the guys getting big off low volume routines. There are lots of ways to get big/strong.

But yeah, nice article.


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## Cookie

big said:


> Yes.
> 
> I've read that one before, along with most other articles Chad puts out. I like Chad's writings. He advocates that much volume but NOT to failure. In fact, if you're doing 8 sets of 3 with only 80% of your 1RM, you're a long, long way from failure. I tend to lean the other way for most beginner/intermediate trainees and encourage far less volume, but with more of an emphasis on how to work progressive resistance, as this is the key IMO. The only things really missing from the article is deloading phases (which ARE needed when doing that amount of volume) and progressive resistance.
> 
> The idea behind a volume routine like that, is that you'd load up and bring yourself to the point of overtraining (even overtrain slightly), and when you deload is when your strength would actually increase - with the rebound effect from overtraining (i.e. what bodybuilders traditionally see when they take a week off, and then typically mistake that week off for lesser frequency being the answer).
> 
> I wholeheartedly disagree with his statement that anything under this magical "24" number will fail to give hypertrophy though. Most of the guys doing WSB, are only doing 1-3 work sets with 1-3 reps. And they sure seem to get plenty of hypertrophy. Not to mention all the guys getting big off low volume routines. There are lots of ways to get big/strong.
> 
> But yeah, nice article.


You have to also take into account that he is probably marketing this at natural trainers and most if not all the guys that I have seen/read about on WSB are gear users...

As for the volume thing you can turn it around and drop the sets down to the region of 2 or even 3 but up the reps slightly to make the numbers up.

IMHO I think only training to the 80% mark on any given set is the most productive way to go for a vast majority of people..not only will this encourage continual growth but also keep enthusiasm high as i do feel so many people come to a point after pounding out the intensity for awhile hit plateaus too quickly then more than often see this as an indication that they need to increase drug use(the old adage).

As for the detraining this should be in everybodies training..personnely I dont like to train for more than 21-28 days without a 5-7 days rest then start again..

You can still have progressive resistance with his ideas as all you have to do is stick to the same reps/set scheme note all weights lifted and recovery etc from it and increase weights slightly each week..

I also dont think you should use his idea to load up on volume and overtrain I think it should be used to stop you from over training in that is you do keep the reps low but the sets high and dont reach your targets sets then the following workout all you do is jiggle the numbers drop the sets right down but up the reps to keep within the guidelines just as chef would say "resetting"when you fail to meet rtequired numbers that way you should never overtrain...


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## hackskii

Interesting last two posts.

I think all rep ranges are usefull.

The other day, I didnt feel like having alot of intensity for legs so I did 10 sets of 10 with fairly light weight on one exercise with low rest and called it a day.

I was sore the next day too.


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## Cookie

> The other day, I didnt feel like having alot of intensity for legs so I did 10 sets of 10 with fairly light weight on one exercise with low rest and called it a day.
> 
> I was sore the next day too.


Classic german volume training...cant beat that for bringing up week bodyparts...


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## winger

ONE SMART COOKIE said:


> Classic german volume training...cant beat that for bringing up week bodyparts...


What if your not German?............j/k.

Why does it seem like there are so many variations to this?

Can you post a generic workout for one week? Your siggy says to ask so dont let me down OSC!

I opened the door for you so please enlighten us!


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## Cookie

winger said:


> What if your not German?............j/k.
> 
> Why does it seem like there are so many variations to this?
> 
> Can you post a generic workout for one week? Your siggy says to ask so dont let me down OSC!
> 
> I opened the door for you so please enlighten us!


LOL....I love you bro.....

Actually I`m polish and it works for me....not being german... 

Ok if it were me doing it as a typical weeks workout I would use an upper/lower body part split and train 4 days out of the week(he says in the article each muscle group can be trained 2-4 times each week)

So it would go like this

Upper workout

Chest benches 3x6 dips 3x6 Total reps 36

Back Chins 5x5 total reps 25

Shoulders side laterals 2x12 total reps 24

Triceps Lying barbell extensions 3x8 total reps 24

Biceps Barbell curls 2x12 total reps 24

Day off

Lower body workout

Abs crunches 5x10 total reps 50

Forearms 3x15 total reps 45

Calves standing raises4x12 total reps 48

Hams stiff legs 3x15 total reps 45

Thighs front squats 5x10 total reps 50

Day off then repeat

Chest has higher reps for me because I needed to work on thickness,back reps are lower because it grows easily,shoulder/tricep/bicep reps are lower because they have been pre exhausted by the other muscle groups...

Abs are high because I feel they grow better for me at higher reps but dont get that chunky look with lower reps more weight...

Forearms/calves higher reps also due to these muscles being used a lot throughout the day so pretty tough muscles to breakdown..imo..

Hams...I dont like to train hams too heavy as I loose feel so the higher reps work perfect for me..

Thighs weak bodypart so more focus on the higher level of volume to push for new growth...

I think the reason for the variation winger is basically down to giving people more options to train with so lessening the chance of staleness and hitting a plateau....you could also work in a time factor if your busy you do less sets/less rest between sets but still meet the target range for the reps.......


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## winger

You dont call this volume do you?


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## samurai691436114498

Isnt german volume looking at 10x10 ++ workouts


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## Cookie

winger said:


> You dont call this volume do you?


So I assume you want a german volume training program...well make your flaming mind up....I thought you wanted one incorporating the article I posted...

If your doing german volume its best to only do it for your weak bodyparts only...so just picking one weak bodypart per workout and doing 10 sets 10 reps with no more than 60 secs rest between each set and making the weight the same for all sets..but picking a weight that you will satrt to fail to reach your target reps by about the 4th/5th set.but when you can doo all 10 sets for 10 reps then you either up the weight or depending on the time factor your spending on your weak area move onto another set scheme...

As for what I call volume would scare the pants of you and then you¬d just start posting that that was too much and impossible to gain from...I know what your game is winger baby:eek:


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## winger

ONE SMART COOKIE said:


> I know what your game is winger baby:eek:


I like the routine myself, which means you dont. You are volume and I am hiit. But I can take my hiit and swap excercises around and not do any more sets than normal and now train twice a week each bodypart, rather than once a week. But even my once a week has enough overlap to work. If I cant get stronger then I am doing something wrong.

Have you ever noticed the more you push the more you need time off? The stronger you get the less you have to do. 

You grow outside the gym, not inside. Back at ya............lol.


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## Cookie

> I like the routine myself, which means you dont.


Which routine do you like??????give me a clue?????



> You are volume and I am hiit


No I`m not...last routine I was doing was only 3 sets 8 reps per bodypart...



> But I can take my hiit and swap excercises around and not do any more sets than normal and now train twice a week each bodypart, rather than once a week.


I can swap exercises around even if I am doing volume...that aint difficult to do..and not even increase volume by one extra set...I also like to train ech bodypart twice a week as I dont think once a week is enough especially for the natural bber...



> Have you ever noticed the more you push the more you need time off?


That stands to reason..any numpty should know that one but "I ALWAYS HAVE A WEEK OFF EVERY 4 WEEKS ON"and I never train to failure on any set 80% max...



> The stronger you get the less you have to do.


Not really as you still have to stimulate the muscle fibres wether you can bench 100lbs or 500lbs..the stronger a muscle is the more punishment it can take as it "SHOULD" have the density to do so....



> You grow outside the gym, not inside


You dont say..... 

Example of 2 old routines of mine

Chest HIT method...smith machine benches to failure.....5 22lb plates each side...rep out till postive failure then negative failure then rack weight pull off a plate from each side and repeat sequence till all plates are off the smith machine and struggling with negatives with bar only....

Volume chest....8x8 benches to neck..8x8 dips...8x8 incline dumbbells...8x8 flyes....

Both gave me different results at different times but suited what I needed at that time......

Back at ya...........


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## winger

Oh here we go with the bench to the neck. Didn't shib hurt his shoulder doing that at the end? Let me answer that......yes. It might hit more upper chest maybe, but why not do the bench that follows the natural movement of the body. You can use more weight and overload the muscle better imo.


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## Cookie

winger said:


> Oh here we go with the bench to the neck. Didn't shib hurt his shoulder doing that at the end? Let me answer that......yes. It might hit more upper chest maybe, but why not do the bench that follows the natural movement of the body. You can use more weight and overload the muscle better imo.


That was my routine not for anybody else..........so whats your point????

Shib hurt his shoulder because he did what I told him

"NOT TO DO..WIDE GRIP BENCHING TO THE NECK".......

when he shifted his hand placement everything was fine.......

It hits the entire chest area when hand spacing is correct especially the outer areas for added flare......all about cosmetic bodybuilding.....

Regular benches are mostly frontal delt exercises period..and I`ve seen more people blow out shoulders and pecs with regular benches than neck presses.....

So now we`ve got your usual moan out of the way lets get back to the routines you asked about.....


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## winger

ONE SMART COOKIE said:


> So now we`ve got your usual moan out of the way lets get back to the routines you asked about.....


Wow, OSC with some attitude, I love that. Ok here we go. 

Upper workout

Chest benches 3x6 dips 3x6 Total reps 36 This is ok, hits the upper with your bench to the neck, hits the lower for dips. This does hit the whole chest. But dips arent really considered a big mass builder for chest.

Back Chins 5x5 total reps 25 Where is the thickening? No bent rows or low cable rows? Biggest sheet of muscle on the body, why neglect that?

Shoulders side laterals 2x12 total reps 24 No presses? If you bench to the neck then the shoulders almost get zero work. You need a basic compound movement in here mate.

Triceps Lying barbell extensions 3x8 total reps 24 This is ok but dont forget dips hit the triceps pretty good. So is this 42 sets for triceps? Lets over work the small muscles shall we?

Biceps Barbell curls 2x12 total reps 24

Day off

Lower body workout

Abs crunches 5x10 total reps 50

Forearms 3x15 total reps 45

Calves standing raises4x12 total reps 48

Hams stiff legs 3x15 total reps 45

Thighs front squats 5x10 total reps 50

Day off then repeat

Balls in your court mate.


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## Cookie

> But dips arent really considered a big mass builder for chest.


Are you joking me with this newbie statement?????????

Dips build pecs and big full pecs at that......especially the way I do them...



> Where is the thickening? No bent rows or low cable rows? Biggest sheet of muscle on the body, why neglect that?


The way I do chins(various hand spacings)I can hit any area of my back...plus is you read things properly the first time you would have noticed I said



> back reps are lower because it grows easily





> No presses? If you bench to the neck then the shoulders almost get zero work. You need a basic compound movement in here mate.


I work laterals because even neck presses stress front delts slightly,and chins work rear delts when you do chins correctly..and the laterals give me the wide that nature hadnt...



> This is ok but dont forget dips hit the triceps pretty good. So is this 42 sets for triceps? Lets over work the small muscles shall we?


How the hell do you get 42 sets for triceps??????

Are you really from this planet or reading what I have written correctly???????

I do 3 sets for triceps directly....plus you seem to have forgotten I stated in the original workout post..



> shoulder/tricep/bicep reps are lower because they have been pre exhausted by the other muscle groups...


so I have made adjustments for that already...and I only do 6 sets total in this routine for chest.....

Me thinks you really need to read things properly and learn to count before you post lame replies.....

As stated before all routines served a purpose when I "DID" them...what I do know is different......

I`ll make things easy for you.....

The only type of routines I`ve never done are pure powerlifting and pure olympic weightlifting anything inbetween these I have be it 1 set a body part or 100 sets a wokout I`ve tried em all with varying results........

I see it this way dont comment if you havent tried something yourself first...because it is only in the trying do we know if it will "ACTUALLY WORK FOR US"


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## winger

ONE SMART COOKIE said:


> Are you joking me with this newbie statement?????????
> 
> I see it this way dont comment if you havent tried something yourself first...because it is only in the trying do we know if it will "ACTUALLY WORK FOR US"


I love the intensity. Cookie strapping on a pair of balls......lol.

Mate, I have learned so much from your diets, training and attitude.

I have done it all. I have been training for 29 years. Just because I have made gains on hiit training doesn't mean you wont..........lol.

When I say basic compound movements, I dont mean benching to the neck.

I see your principles and agree. But size does matter. Once again for the visually impared, with strength comes size. You are shaping a body. But without basic compound excercises there is nothing to shape.


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## Cookie

> I love the intensity. Cookie strapping on a pair of balls......lol.


Took me a few years to find em after giving up gear



> I have done it all. I have been training for 29 years. Just because I have made gains on hiit training doesn't mean you wont..........lol.


HIT was all I used to do in my competing days.......you seem to forget that...but I have learned to "Think Outside Of The Box" and I never stick to just one training primciple unlike just about everybody else.....



> I see your principles and agree. But size does matter. Once again for the visually impared, with strength comes size.


Really...interesting....but wrong in a way......

Just look at the lightweight olympic lifters...all small on the weight side of things(body structure overall bodyweight etc)but lifting "HUGE" weights..and compared to the super heavies,the lightweights lift far more when you compare lbs of bodymass to lbs lifted...so that blows that theory outta the window.....strength doesnot always mean size....All you have to do is read some of the old russian training programs to figure that one out as they would have 1 program for putting weight on the bar(for those needing to keep below a weight limit)and a different program for those that need to increase bodymass(to go up a weightclass)



> You are shaping a body. But without basic compound excercises there is nothing to shape.


As long as your lifting a weight any weight and stimulating the muscle fibres they body has to grow to adapt to the stresses put upon it...be it an isolation exercise a bodyweight exercise or a compound exercise the body has to adapt..end of...


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## JohnO

ONE SMART COOKIE said:


> Here you all go..happy reading..theres a lot of it..lmao.....
> 
> http://t-nation.com/readTopic.do;jsessionid=40A65E45652C7BA3225883843500C1CB.hydra?id=651322&pageNo=0


That yellow type on ablack background is a be atch to read.

I copied it all out into word pics an all. Thanks for the link Cookie


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## hackskii

Bumping this for after work for the t-nation

http://t-nation.com/readTopic.do;js...651322&pageNo=0


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## winger

Well OSC, I agree with you on the olympic lifting, but then we are talking bb arent we. I know you used it as an analogy and I knew it was coming.  I lift heavy weather it is reps of 5-20. I also change up my routine more than anybody that I have ever met. But I dont do the volume training.

Got a guestion for you. Did you start off doing isolation excercises or did you start out doing basic compound excercises? In my opinion, isolation excercises are useless without a foundation.


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## Cookie

winger said:


> Well OSC, I agree with you on the olympic lifting, but then we are talking bb arent we.


It really doesnt make a difference wether its bbing or olympic lifting like I said in the earlier post..."They had 2 programs..1 for mass and one for pure strength"wether they were training "bbers or olympic athletes"all that changed was the frequency...pure and simple......

Anyway thats all I`m going to say on the matter....too many probing questions and just picking on tiny things and going off tangent to the original thread(I know what your after me doing and I aint letting all my secrets out )........


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## winger

ONE SMART COOKIE said:


> (I know what your after me doing and I aint letting all my secrets out )........


LOL 

Lets just say the sweet spot is between 24-36 reps depending on which bodypart being worked. Is that considered volume?


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## JohnO

Cookie, can I just confirm the set rep range stuff please.

This may be on this thread already, if so then soz I missed it.

If the rep range is 24-36 for one body part then you could either pick one exercise and do 3x8 reps =24 then a second exercise 2x6reps=12. 24+12=36.

Or

3x12reps=36 then that body part is done?


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## hackskii

Per bodypart not per exercise. At least that is what the article suggested.


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## Cookie

JohnO said:


> Cookie, can I just confirm the set rep range stuff please.
> 
> This may be on this thread already, if so then soz I missed it.
> 
> If the rep range is 24-36 for one body part then you could either pick one exercise and do 3x8 reps =24 then a second exercise 2x6reps=12. 24+12=36.
> 
> Or
> 
> 3x12reps=36 then that body part is done?


Yeah you missed it blindman

Its the reps for the whole body part so you could either do it for 1 exersice at 3x8(for the lower 24 reps)or 3 seperate exercises for 1 set of 8 each in a tri set...

Me I would make the workouts all set up for the 24 reps per bodypart then as strength comes the reps will increase..when you can do 36 reps per bodypart then up the weight and drop the reps......



> LOL
> 
> Lets just say the sweet spot is between 24-36 reps depending on which bodypart being worked. Is that considered volume?


Not talking to you anymore...as you`ve just said what I said on the first page and were only trying to get me to give up my info.........


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## JohnO

Thanks Cookie


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## winger

ONE SMART COOKIE said:


> Me I would make the workouts all set up for the 24 reps per bodypart then as strength comes the reps will increase..when you can do 36 reps per bodypart then up the weight and drop the reps......
> 
> Not talking to you anymore...as you`ve just said what I said on the first page and were only trying to get me to give up my info.........


This looks just like hiit to me. 

Are the sets to failure?

I do six sets for chest, 3 work sets, two excercises. So 3 sets at 8 reps is what? 24? Do I count the warm up sets? Why not take the body to failure and move on? Cookie you crack me up. Lets just say for the first excercise you do two warm up sets and one set to failure of lets say 8 reps. Thats 24 reps. Do you see where I am going with this?

This is me. I only count my work sets only. 

OSC, you can do better than this!


----------



## Cookie

> OSC, you can do better than this!


Yep I sure can:lift:


----------



## winger

ONE SMART COOKIE said:


> Yep I sure can:lift:


That reminds me of a clif hanger.


----------



## Cookie

winger said:


> That reminds me of a clif hanger.


Hope you`ve got a strong grip for all that "cliff hanging" cos you`ll be waiting awhile


----------



## winger

ONE SMART COOKIE said:


> Hope you`ve got a strong grip for all that "cliff hanging" cos you`ll be waiting awhile


I got a good grip, I attribute it to HIIT training.........lol.


----------



## Ironball

Well I have been reading a lot today and am getting confused with all these numbers. 

OSC,(or anyone who knows) according to that article then if I do bar curls for 3sets x 8 reps that is the way(according to that article) to increase strength and muscle mass. Then I must do this at least twice a week??

Lets say I curl 80lbs for 6 reps. Which is a set to failure. What weight would I use to complete the workout that article suggested. Also when I completed the 3 X 8 sets what would I do? Increase weight? change rep set scheme?

Forgive me I'm:crazy:


----------



## Cookie

I would use 60lbs then and when you can easily do the 3x8 you up the weight and go for it again....


----------



## Ironball

ONE SMART COOKIE said:


> I would use 60lbs then and when you can easily do the 3x8 you up the weight and go for it again....


So lets say I up the weight to 65lbs. What if I can do the first set of 8 reps but that means I have to go to failure to accomplish that? Isn't this still training to failure?

Before I would curl 80lbs for 8 reps, rest, then curl till failure again, usually 6 reps. I have mostly trained this way but like you say I have become frustrated and not motivated because of this style I feel. I am trying to get my head into training as you suggested but i find it hard to grasp because of always training all out. I want to try this type of training for a while to see what suits me better. Do you know of anymore articles that advocate this type of training?


----------



## Cookie

Ironball said:


> So lets say I up the weight to 65lbs. What if I can do the first set of 8 reps but that means I have to go to failure to accomplish that? Isn't this still training to failure?
> 
> Before I would curl 80lbs for 8 reps, rest, then curl till failure again, usually 6 reps. I have mostly trained this way but like you say I have become frustrated and not motivated because of this style I feel. I am trying to get my head into training as you suggested but i find it hard to grasp because of always training all out. I want to try this type of training for a while to see what suits me better. Do you know of anymore articles that advocate this type of training?


Too many questions....your over complicating it...."Paralysis by over analysis"...

Just do the 3 sets at 60lbs and if you "COMFORTABLY" complete all the sets then up the weight for 5lbs and start again...going for 8 reps on the 1st set and then seeing what happens with the rest.......


----------



## winger

ONE SMART COOKIE said:


> Too many questions....your over complicating it...."Paralysis by over analysis"...
> 
> Just do the 3 sets at 60lbs and if you "COMFORTABLY" complete all the sets then up the weight for 5lbs and start again...going for 8 reps on the 1st set and then seeing what happens with the rest.......


Can I do 60 sets with 3 pounds?........... :rolleye11


----------



## Cookie

winger said:


> Can I do 60 sets with 3 pounds?........... :rolleye11


If thats what rocks your boat then go ahead..

Just remember to report back here to everyone what your experiances are..

And thats a challenge for ya:spammer:


----------



## Ironball

ONE SMART COOKIE said:


> Too many questions....your over complicating it...."Paralysis by over analysis"...
> 
> Just do the 3 sets at 60lbs and if you "COMFORTABLY" complete all the sets then up the weight for 5lbs and start again...going for 8 reps on the 1st set and then seeing what happens with the rest.......


I like that saying. I always think about stuff too much. Problem of my life.:crazy:

I tried it last night. I thought I'd do it easy. Did the first set quite comfortably, second completed but more difficult and third set I only managed 6 reps. I try again next time. Should I do it twice in a week?


----------



## Cookie

> I tried it last night. I thought I'd do it easy. Did the first set quite comfortably, second completed but more difficult and third set I only managed 6 reps. I try again next time. Should I do it twice in a week?


See..all you had to do was try it as written in the article....now reread the article a couple of times and arrange your workouts to suit what it says about workout frequency...dont change a thing dont question a thing just try it and see..then after trying then and only then can you tweak it to suit yourself.......or to make it dead simple for you just do 3 sets of 8 reps for each bodypart on 1 exercise only per bodypart using the same principle as you did with the curl...give it a couple of weeks and report back what it has done for you.....


----------



## winger

ONE SMART COOKIE said:


> If thats what rocks your boat then go ahead..
> 
> Just remember to report back here to everyone what your experiances are..
> 
> And thats a challenge for ya:spammer:


I got your spam swinging big boy!


----------



## particleastro

waoh, heavy article. Explain this please, when I started in the new gym they gave me some really simple program to follow, basically working secondary muscle groups on the same day as primaries, eg

Decline bench 3x8

Incline bench 3x8

Fly 3x12

Tricep pushdowns 3x8

Skulls 3x8

Single handed pulldowns 3x12.

Now while chest strength has improved, size hasnt really increased. My arms however have increased nicley in size. Should I maybe just up the number of reps for a few weeks on the first muscle group? Or should I just stop worring about nothing and LIFT SOME WEIGHT.


----------



## hackskii

Id drop the flys and do bench.

Id also drop the pushdowns and do some dips instead too.

Both bench and dips are coupound movements, the flys and pushdowns are not.


----------



## winger

I wouldn't up the reps, just stay between 8-12.

How many times a week do you do this?


----------



## particleastro

Erm, chest/tris on Mon, back/bis on Wed, legs/Shoulders Fri. Legs and shoulders responding well, as well as arms. When I said up the reps I meant doing 3x10 as a staple instead of 3x8, changing up weight when i get to 12.

So Hacks, you'd have me doing three different benches on the chest day. Dips I agree with totally, will deff take them up again after this flu induced break in training.

If this goes off topic Ill write a new thread with my program, as it stands atm.

Cheers for all the help dudes, you have earnt yourselves both a free physics lesson.

John.


----------



## hackskii

Well, they actually arnt bench.

Inclines can be done either with strait bar or dumbells.

Same as bench can be done with bar or dumbells.

Declines, probably should stick with just the bar with this one.

Beings that dips tie in with the triceps and the chest, you dont have to kill the chest to failure during the other exercises.

i myslef just do bench (dumbells) and inclines (bar).

I had to resort to dumbells due to a shoulder injury doing strait bar trying to go too heavy.

You can alternate any combo you need, like bench with dumbells then go to inclines using a bar then maybe some dips.

Or you can do something like declines, inclines and close grip for triceps.

Close grip hits the inner chest and bombs the triceps.

Great compound exercise for triceps.

You dont have to do alot because dips you are using for triceps but they actually incorperate chest into that picture too.

Like bench, I know guys with monster triceps and they dont even work arms.

Get your bench up and you will automaticly have huge triceps.

Things tie in together.

But for chest, you can do bench, inclines, then do some dips.

Dips are similar kindof to declines, and very similar to pushdowns.

Close grip bench is similar to skull crushers.

Id pick the compound exercises myself and choose the exercises that kindof overlap with what you are tying to do.


----------



## particleastro

coolcool, its good to know Im on more or less the right lines...

Its been a while since I did bench with dumbells.


----------



## Killerkeane

I definetly grow off lower rep ranges, and get a lot stronger.


----------



## winger

particleastro said:


> coolcool, its good to know Im on more or less the right lines...
> 
> Its been a while since I did bench with dumbells.


I mix all my workouts up. Db's one workout, bar the next. The key is to keep the body guessing. That goes for reps too!

Particleastro, I like your push pull workout.


----------



## hackskii

Man, did 10 sets of 10 for leg extensions (knees have been sore lately)

and man oh man were my legs sore.

ALmost could not walk.

That was it just 10 sets of 10 for quads....They were sore for 5 days

Did the same for rear delt too and those never get sore. They got sore doing 10 sets of 10. Last two sets I didnt get 10 and I didnt want to lower the weight so I took a bit more time between sets.

I was doing like 10 second rest.


----------



## winger

hackskii said:


> Man, did 10 sets of 10 for leg extensions (knees have been sore lately)
> 
> and man oh man were my legs sore.
> 
> ALmost could not walk.
> 
> That was it just 10 sets of 10 for quads....They were sore for 5 days
> 
> Did the same for rear delt too and those never get sore. They got sore doing 10 sets of 10. Last two sets I didnt get 10 and I didnt want to lower the weight so I took a bit more time between sets.
> 
> I was doing like 10 second rest.


Oh now your backing OSC............lol........oopsie, so am I.

If you keep the body guessing, the body will keep growing, unless you are over training. I really feel if you are hitting it hard you should never train with weights longer than 45 minutes.


----------



## Cookie

> Oh now your backing OSC............lol........oopsie, so am I.


See people always come round to my way of thinking...:rolleye11


----------



## winger

ONE SMART COOKIE said:


> See people always come round to my way of thinking...:rolleye11


Persistance does come to mind.


----------



## hackskii

I cant see doing 10 sets of 10 in dead lifts......That would do some damage.

Probably would not be able to get out of bed the next day.


----------



## Tinytom

I reckon you could do 10 of 10 with deadlifts if you did them on a smith machine. You wouldn't be using your stabilisers as much so you would get less stiffness in the lower back which can occur after doing a few sets of heavy deads.

Although I agree that a day in bed would probably follow.


----------



## winger

Tinytom said:


> Although I agree that a day in bed would probably follow.


Not at my house, my wife would kick me out to go to work.


----------



## fits

so was there an agreeed average on best rep range? or just lots of different opinions?


----------



## winger

fits said:


> so was there an agreeed average on best rep range? or just lots of different opinions?


8-10


----------



## fits

winger said:


> 8-10


 For one work set i take it, as you replied to my other post about my traiing! cheers


----------



## winger

fits said:


> For one work set i take it, as you replied to my other post about my traiing! cheers


No problem. I used to do one set to failure around the 8-10 rep range. If you dont train to failure and do more volume training, then dont go to all out failure and you can do more sets.

Cookie has me doing volume training at the moment.


----------



## Ironman

At the moment I do 2 working sets per exercise. On the second working set I drop the weight a little so that I can get the same reps to failure as my first set. Aiming for 6-8 reps on compound exercises and 8-10 on isolation exersises. Seems to be working a treat - but could also be something to do with the copius amounts of gear Im on the moment!


----------



## TypeR

cool ive just seen this thread i normally do 4 sets per exercises

10

6-8

0-6

10-12

Ben


----------



## pookie69

Do any of you guys alter your weight and reps from set to set in the same session? I've gotten into the habit of doing 4 sets, increasing weight from one set to the next, starting with 15 reps for the first, 10 for the second, 8 for the third, and finally 6-8 for the last.

I always think of the first 3 sets as 'warm ups' for my final heavy set, which is the only set i take to failure.

Is this a bad way to train? From reading some of your posts i get the impression that most people don't train this way.


----------



## winger

I train like that but I dont warm up on my second excercise though.

Lets say I started with flat bench and did a set of 8 reps holding back. Next set 8 reps holding back adding more weight and 3rd set all out failure of 8 reps.

Then if I do lets say bar incline I do my first set to failure of about 8 reps.


----------



## TOBE

pookie69 said:


> Do any of you guys alter your weight and reps from set to set in the same session? I've gotten into the habit of doing 4 sets, increasing weight from one set to the next, starting with 15 reps for the first, 10 for the second, 8 for the third, and finally 6-8 for the last.
> 
> I always think of the first 3 sets as 'warm ups' for my final heavy set, which is the only set i take to failure.
> 
> Is this a bad way to train? From reading some of your posts i get the impression that most people don't train this way.


Mines more or less the same.


----------



## winger

Me too.


----------



## donggle

on big compounds (squat, dead, bench) i aim for 4-8 reps. on everything else (including shoulders) i aim for 8-10 in the 3 sets and 6-8 on the last.

always 4 or 5 sets unless its biceps/triceps, which will usually already have been worked indirectly in the session (bi's/tri's are usually 3x8-10).

on the compounds.generally the 1st set is a light weight, about 50% of my 1rm, going for 10 slow reps, controlled movement.

2nd set is about 70% 1rm

3rd is usually alot higher, 80% 1rm. and last set will be 85-90% until failure which will usually come around the 4th rep, then i do 2 forced reps helped by a spotter.

imo you will not get stronger by lifting the same weight throughout the session, you need to be continually upping the weight. the first 2 sets should be to properly warm the muscle and get blood flowing to be able to lift the 2 heavy sets.


----------



## DAN85

say if i normally do 12 reps at 100kg would i up the weight to say 120kg if im only going to do 6-8 reps or keep it at 100kg? thanks


----------



## Big_Dan

If you want to add some serious mass to your arms, watch this video !






come on , with arms like that , you cant go wrong lol


----------



## Big_Dan

at the moment , i am bordering round 10-12 reps , trying to feel more of a pump lk !


----------



## winger

I rotate rep ranges to keep the body guessing.

See how many reps you can get with 100 kg's and try to beat it, then next workout see what you get with 120 kg's and try to beat that.

Keep the body guessing.

I don't really know what this means but weight pushed would look like this.

12 times 100 is 1200 kg.

6 times 120 is 720 kg.

8 times 120 is 960 kg.

Which looks better to you? Just mix it up and you will keep gaining.


----------



## JawD

What Im doing at the moment is cycling my training with my supp cycles. So its kinda been :

Week 1~8 - Creatine cycle, 4-6 rep range

Week 9 rest

Week 10-18 creatine cycle, 8-10 rep range

Week 19 rest

and so on.

At the moment, I tend to feel 6-8 rep range is my "optimum range" as it were. But I do like to change it around every 8 weeks.

During any routine, I start 10 reps @ 50% final load and I do that twice. Then 6 reps @ 75%, 2 reps @ 90% and then working sets that are usually 2 or 3 sets on compounds.

For Bi/Tri's they come second and will have been warmed up prior so I jump right in and do 2 working sets.


----------



## DAN85

winger said:


> I rotate rep ranges to keep the body guessing.
> 
> See how many reps you can get with 100 kg's and try to beat it, then next workout see what you get with 120 kg's and try to beat that.
> 
> Keep the body guessing.
> 
> I don't really know what this means but weight pushed would look like this.
> 
> 12 times 100 is 1200 kg.
> 
> 6 times 120 is 720 kg.
> 
> 8 times 120 is 960 kg.
> 
> Which looks better to you? Just mix it up and you will keep gaining.


think i will stick to doing mainly 12 reps at 100kg and every 2 weeks use 8 reps at say 140kg see how that goes


----------



## shauno

i think aslong as your training a muscle hard it will grow.

do different rep ranges to mix it up


----------



## winger

shauno said:


> i think aslong as your training a muscle hard it will grow.
> 
> do different rep ranges to mix it up


I agree. I would also use a journal to track your progress.


----------



## Robbyg

Hi guys been a really interesting read and have picked up some great tips just want to ask a couple of questions reguarding sets and reps . So the best rep range to build would be the 6-8 range and how many sets would be the max per body part so lets say chest bench 1st set 50 % 8-10 reps 2nd set 60 % 3rd 75 % 4 th 85 % i was doing 2 sets as a warm up and 4 sets at 85% at 6 reps would it be better off doing 4 sets altogether but always upping the weight ? and doing 1 set at 85 %.

This is my chest routine at the moment chest bench 2 warm up 4 sets at 85%

incline bench 1 warm up 3 set at 85 % and decline bench bumbbells 1 warm 3 sets 85 %

is that to much for chest ? cheers just a newbie whos in a rutt


----------



## winger

Robbyg said:


> Hi guys been a really interesting read and have picked up some great tips just want to ask a couple of questions reguarding sets and reps . So the best rep range to build would be the 6-8 range and how many sets would be the max per body part so lets say chest bench 1st set 50 % 8-10 reps 2nd set 60 % 3rd 75 % 4 th 85 % i was doing 2 sets as a warm up and 4 sets at 85% at 6 reps would it be better off doing 4 sets altogether but always upping the weight ? and doing 1 set at 85 %.
> 
> This is my chest routine at the moment chest bench 2 warm up 4 sets at 85%
> 
> incline bench 1 warm up 3 set at 85 % and decline bench bumbbells 1 warm 3 sets 85 %
> 
> is that to much for chest ? cheers just a newbie whos in a rutt


Are you getting stronger doing this? If so don't change.


----------



## Robbyg

It feels im stuck at the same weight i know but i can do 4 set sets of 6 reps at 85 % ok i think i just need to maybe up the weight on the last 2 sets and maybe go for a rep range of 2-4 which will be to faliure to to see if i can brake through this stale time. I had to change my programme a bit as i was over training do 5-6 exercise per body part now im doing 3 soild exercise and 1 cool down. I think i just plateaud at the programme i was doing .


----------



## winger

When you stall you can either deload (recommended) or do less sets.

Deloading is cutting back the weight. It's like one step back and two steps forward.

For me to deload is hard so I usually just swap exercises like do db's for a while and try to ramp it back up.

IMO, that is allot of work for chest. I train H.I.T. and only do 3-4 sets to failure on big body parts.

Why not start up a journal and let the board check it out.


----------



## Robbyg

Yes i see what you mean about deloading and doing more reps and building back up again maybe putting in same dbs on the bench or swopping between the the bar and dbs . As for the journal id think that would be a good idea as we are all in the same boat on this forum to build muscule well try lol Thanks for your advice


----------



## winger

You are welcome mate.

IMO, I feel 8-12 rep range will give you the biggest muscles.

But I will do 5 reps on maybe my first exercise and then do 8-12 on the next exercise so I cover all my bases. Hell many times I will do a set of 20 reps to finish off.


----------



## Guest

Big_Dan said:


> If you want to add some serious mass to your arms, watch this video !
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> come on , with arms like that , you cant go wrong lol


thought you was being serious then:rolleyes:

i do the same though

i find my weight of which the 10th rep is abit of a struggle then i up it 2.5kg for 8 reps then up it another 2.5 for 6 reps then another 2.5 until fail, which is normally about 4 or 5 reps


----------



## darkiwi

Big_Dan said:


> If you want to add some serious mass to your arms, watch this video !
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> come on , with arms like that , you cant go wrong lol


 mg: wtf lol love it hahahhahaha if he went rite down he would tear both his biceps hahhahaha


----------



## winger

darkiwi said:


> mg: wtf lol love it hahahhahaha if he went rite down he would tear both his biceps hahhahaha


Is that before or after he snapped his forearms?....lol


----------



## Aftershock

Big_Dan said:


> If you want to add some serious mass to your arms, watch this video !
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> come on , with arms like that , you cant go wrong lol


Sorry totally off topic but found this one on youtube its an absolute classic


----------



## NeilpWest

Aftershock said:


> Sorry totally off topic but found this one on youtube its an absolute classic


lmao cant believe some people


----------



## hackskii

Haaaaa haaaaa badasses.

It looked heavy for both of them.


----------



## winger

That is funny.


----------



## flapjack

Tried a set of 21's for bicep curl today

7 reps just using lower half of range leading into 7 reps top half of range leading into 7 full reps. Felt like a screwdriver had been driven through each bicep by the end of the set. Knowhere near as difficult as 20 rep squats but still a good painfull shock for the biceps.


----------



## paulo

hackskii said:


> Id drop the flys and do bench.
> 
> Id also drop the pushdowns and do some dips instead too.
> 
> Both bench and dips are coupound movements, the flys and pushdowns are not.


agreed we do pullovers for triceps followed by dips-never pushdowns etc-and arms are acheing next few days -sore to straighten arm


----------



## hackskii

Well, dips are a compound exercise and tricep pushdowns are an isolation exercise....

No guess to which one I prefere....


----------



## winger

I prefer porn, but that's just me. :jerk:


----------



## MXD

IMO there are no rules for reps building size.

As long as you give progressive resistance and workout capacity you will grow.


----------



## winger

MXD said:


> IMO there are no rules for reps building size.
> 
> As long as you give progressive resistance and workout capacity you will grow.


Impressive my man!


----------



## bkotey

MXD said:


> IMO there are no rules for reps building size.
> 
> As long as you give progressive resistance and workout capacity you will grow.


True, lets not complicate things. These are the things that matter!


----------



## boldster

so then there are no set numbers of reps to be done to grow, so long as it is intense enough to get a good pump and form is perfect is this right


----------



## hackskii

Well, yes and no.

Some guys use high volume and low intensity. This equates to many sets with low intensity.

Some guys use high intensity and lower volume. This equates to few sets with alot of intensity.

So, you have to look at 3 things like volume, intensity, frequency.

Some guys dont do alot of intensity but hit the muscle groups 2 or 3 times a week.

This could work providing the intensity and volume was tailored to that.

I like to spend the least amount of time in the gym possible, this is why I do HIT or high intensity training, where I do few sets but go to failure.


----------



## winger

boldster said:


> so then there are no set numbers of reps to be done to grow, so long as it is intense enough to get a good pump and form is perfect is this right


This is just my opinion. If you are getting stronger then you are doing the right thing, regardless of rep ranges.


----------



## crazycacti

I have grown on 3-5, i have also grown on 8-12 and my legs have grown on a stupid phase where I used to do 20 reps and chunder at the end of almost every workout...

what we need to do is not consistently have high volume and high intensity as this leads to overtraining for sure... choose one over the other imo and the weights, alongside proper deloading when the time is right, will go up for certain no matter what the rep range...

god this is an old post lol


----------



## itraininthedark

Different per individual i think, ive found as long as keep perfect form with good heavyweight 6-10 is great. but if im hittin ten reps, il up the weight til hit 8 reps, then up again so on until i feel like im on fire..but its a good pain. With legs i like to hit 12 reps and work down upping the weight, the same with traps..


----------



## winger

I like to keep the body guessing with different rep ranges.


----------



## hackskii

winger said:


> I like to keep the body guessing with different rep ranges.


Duh.......***.....lol.....

Who am I anway?.......lol

Been supersetting lately and am feeling it big time........

I got to take a break from the heavy stuff for a moment....

Not as heavy as most...........

Well, not as heavy as you anyway........One day......Perhaps..........


----------



## winger

Why train if you don't go heavy and push yourself?

Now that can be heavy for 5 reps or heavy for 20 reps, but heavy non the less.


----------



## hackskii

winger said:


> Why train if you don't go heavy and push yourself?
> 
> Now that can be heavy for 5 reps or heavy for 20 reps, but heavy non the less.


Well, this explains why you are a heavy dude..... :thumb:

Im still your younger identical twin brother, capable of massive power over you while you are injured.........

I hope you heal up soon............... :beer:


----------



## winger

hackskii said:


> Well, this explains why you are a heavy dude..... :thumb:
> 
> Im still your younger identical twin brother, capable of massive power over you while you are injured.........
> 
> I hope you heal up soon............... :beer:


Well thank-you kind Sr! :innocent:


----------



## Tatyana

http://www.t-nation.com/readArticle.do?id=620430&cr=



*Manipulating Reps for Gains in Size and Strength*

*
*by Charles Poliquin
​
Perhaps the most important loading parameter in designing exercise programs is not the number of sets, the tempo used, or even the specific exercises employed, but the number of repetitions selected.

It is clear that the most important variable to strength training is the amount of resistance used. The amount of weight determines the tension put on a muscle, and how long this tension is maintained determines the muscle's response. In fact, subtle manipulations can make the difference between increases in strength, increases in size and increases in endurance.

And the wrong manipulation can make the set, and indeed, the whole exercise session, worthless.

Obviously, the number of repetitions performed determines how much the athlete can lift, and given this fact, I have come up with 24 principles that can influence your decision, approximately half of which are presented in this article.

Whether you design programs for others or just yourself, many of these principles should help you in attaining your physique goals.

1. The number of reps done for a given time under tension dictates the training effect.

Training intensities can be altered in one of two ways: by having the athlete work at a higher percentage of his max (heavier weights), or moving the weight faster during the lifting, or concentric part of the lift.

While the number of reps an athlete performs also influences the training effect, it's mandatory that the speed used to execute the movement also be considered. It's too bad that very few researchers take into consideration the effects of different repetition speeds, and even worse that few coaches take tempo into consideration.

This is where the whole "super slow" theory of training falls flat. As far as sport is concerned, whoever produces the most amount of force in the shortest amount of time wins. By purposely training slow, you learn to become slow. Reducing the speed of movement just increases the time a muscle is under tension, not the intensity. As far as bodybuilding, however, it does not matter so much because functionality of the muscles is not crucial. In that regard, training slow for a brief period can lead to hypertrophy, especially if the trainee has been lifting explosively for a while.

Generally speaking, however, sets that subject the muscles to less than 20 seconds of time under tension build strength, while those that take from 40 to 60 seconds to complete cause hypertrophy.

2. MVC's (Maximal Voluntary Contractions) are essential to the strength building process.

To build size and strength, it is essential to incorporate maximal voluntary contractions. In short, this means recruiting as many motor units as possible to develop force.

Contrary to what you might assume, an MVC does not always equate to a 1RM load. Rather, an MVC could be the last rep of a 5 or 6RM load, where performing another rep is impossible.

Working with 1RM loads, though, enables an athlete to achieve maximal motor unit activation (MUA). Do this enough times, and neural adaptations and increased strength occur.

This is why the rest-pause training methodology is so valuable. For those of you unfamiliar with it, it involves using a 1RM load, which activates the maximal number of motor units. The athlete then racks the bar, removes 2-5% of the load, and then repeats the lift. The process is then repeated, for usually no more than 8 reps.

3. An athlete should use between 70 and 100% of maximum capacity to develop maximal strength.

While there is still some controversy as to the exact range of percentages, many leading experts in strength training believe that the best way to develop maximal strength is to use weights that allow the athlete to perform between 1 and 12 reps at 70 to 100% of the athlete's 1RM.

Some say, however, that anything below 75% is best suited for developing muscular endurance, while others put the number at 60%.

It is my experience, however, that the lower threshold is 70%, but beginners, and especially women, can often make progress using loads that are approximately 60% of 1RM.

4. The range in repetitions needed to develop strength and/or hypertrophy decreases with training ag*e.*

Training age, or the number of years the athlete has been training, influences the 1RM continuum.

While the average beginning weight trainee can often do 20 reps at 75% of maximum, that same trainee may do 10 reps at 75% of maximum after a year. If that same trainee is examined five years later, he may only do 4 reps at 75% of maximum.

Why is this important? Consider the athlete with a training age of one year who can bench press 12 reps at 140 pounds, which is 70% of his 1RM. Perhaps when this trainee has been training for four years, his new 1RM is 400 pounds. However, he may now only be able to complete 6 reps using 70% of his 1RM, which is 280 pounds.

Given that it is generally agreed upon by the strength training community that that 70% is the minimum threshold for strength development, it would not be a good idea to prescribe weights lower than 70%, or repetitions higher than 6, as the weight would be too light to promote gains in strength.

5. The 1RM continuum varies greatly among muscle groups.

If an athlete performs his 12RM (the amount of weight he can lift 12 times) in the bench press, he may only be working at 70% of maximum, but at 12RM in the leg curl, he may only be working at 57% of maximum.

The extreme is even more remarkable when you consider certain lower body movements that employ a high stretch-shortening cycle component, such as leg presses. Many athletes can do 65 reps on the leg press while using a weight that is 70% of their maximum!

6. The number of repetitions is the loading parameter that athletes adapt to the most quickly.

It's best to vary rep range prescriptions often because the body adapts very quickly to given rep ranges. In fact, the average athlete adapts to a given number of reps in six workouts. When this adaptation occurs, it's virtually pointless to continue the same program.

One method with which I have had great success it to prescribe a given rep bracket for 2 workouts, lower it by 1 rep for the next two workouts, and then lower it by 1 rep yet again for one or two workouts.

Here is an example of such a progression:

Workouts 1-2: 4 sets x 6-8

Workouts 3-4: 5 sets x 5-7

Workouts 5-6: 5 sets x 4-6

7. Elite athletes must pay attention to the specificity of contraction force.

Generally speaking, reps in the 1RM to 5RM range increase maximal strength with minimal gains in mass. Reps in the 8RM to 15RM range produce greater gains in hypertrophy, while reps between 6RM and 7RM produce equal changes in hypertrophy and strength.

However, when considering athletes who have several years of training experience, low repetitions (1-5) must be used with high loads (85% or higher) for both relative and absolute strength, while mid-repetitions (6-12) must be used with sub maximal loads (70-84%) for absolute strength gains. High repetitions should be combined with light loads for strength-endurance (less than 70%).

In other words, athletes with more years of experience can train with a broader range of repetitions.

Along the same lines, periodically "straying" into unfamiliar rep ranges can have positive training effects that are not consistent with the norm. For instance, in athletes seeking hypertrophy, periodically employing programs that use 1RM to 5RM ranges can lead to increases in muscle size in addition to strength.

8. Don't perform low reps too frequently.

Sport scientist Robert Roman has written extensively on the training of competitive lifters and he concluded that the most successful weightlifters tend to do most of their sets in the 3RM to 4RM range.

This observation was echoed by Canadian weightlifting coach Pierre Roy, who believes that the average rep range for athletes should be 3.

The take home point is that if an athlete does singles or doubles for too long, he will stagnate. This, of course, is especially true for athletes who seek hypertrophy.

9. Each muscle group or lift responds best to a specific average rep range.

Throughout my career, I have had the opportunity to analyze the training logs of the hundreds of athletes that I've coached. As such, it has become apparent that the optimal rep range should be specific to the muscle group or exercise chosen.

For instance, in the case of the elbow flexors, the best strength gains were obtained when no less than an average of 2.5 reps per set were performed, with a minimum total of 15 reps per workout.

Along the same lines, for hypertrophy purposes, triceps generally respond better to fewer reps than the biceps (because the triceps are generally more fast-twitch). Another example regards the hamstrings, which generally require fewer reps than quadriceps, or the gastrocs, which require fewer reps than the soleus.

10. The function of the muscle dictates the number of reps.

You have no doubt heard your physiology professor say, "Form dictates function." It is also my experience there are specific rep ranges that are more appropriate for certain muscle functions.

As an example, training the knee flexors (hamstrings) with sets of 12 results in little hypertrophy. However, when training the knee extensors, sets of up to 50 reps (leg press) can induce hypertrophy. This probably has to do with the fact that the knee flexors are used for explosive tasks, while the knee extensors are used primarily for maintaining posture and in the execution of certain stretch-shortening tasks.

11. Vary reps for the upper body more than the lower body.

Recent studies confirm that using programs that employ variation in rep ranges was more beneficial for the upper body than the lower body.

For example, if designing a program for the bench press, it's more important to vary the reps often than it is for movements like the squat and deadlift.

12. High-rep training can increase capillary density.

Studies have shown that sets of more than 20 reps can increase capillary density, and capillary dense muscle can eventually lead to hypertrophy when one resumes more traditional rep schemes.

One such study, performed in 1973, showed that as little as one high-rep workout was enough to double the amount of mitochondria in muscle cells.

I think this is one reason why cyclists and speed skaters have such large quadriceps - they expose the muscles to an extreme amount of time under tension, thus facilitating capillary growth and hypertrophy of lower threshold motor units.

However, from personal experience, it seems that the quads, deltoids and lats would benefit from this type of training more than other muscle groups.

13. Reps performed in one exercise may have a different effect than reps performed for another exercise, even though both movements are for the same body part.

When comparing squats against leg press, squats are far more effective in increasing leg strength and overall strength. However, there is some evidence to suggest that the leg press might result in more hypertrophy of the quadriceps. One study, at least, showed that for the same number of reps, the leg press resulted in a higher amount of Growth Hormone being produced than squats.












*Manipulating Reps for Gains in Size and Strength*

*
*by Charles Poliquin
​
Perhaps the most important loading parameter in designing exercise programs is not the number of sets, the tempo used, or even the specific exercises employed, but the number of repetitions selected.

It is clear that the most important variable to strength training is the amount of resistance used. The amount of weight determines the tension put on a muscle, and how long this tension is maintained determines the muscle's response. In fact, subtle manipulations can make the difference between increases in strength, increases in size and increases in endurance.

And the wrong manipulation can make the set, and indeed, the whole exercise session, worthless.

Obviously, the number of repetitions performed determines how much the athlete can lift, and given this fact, I have come up with 24 principles that can influence your decision, approximately half of which are presented in this article.

Whether you design programs for others or just yourself, many of these principles should help you in attaining your physique goals.

1. The number of reps done for a given time under tension dictates the training effect.

Training intensities can be altered in one of two ways: by having the athlete work at a higher percentage of his max (heavier weights), or moving the weight faster during the lifting, or concentric part of the lift.

While the number of reps an athlete performs also influences the training effect, it's mandatory that the speed used to execute the movement also be considered. It's too bad that very few researchers take into consideration the effects of different repetition speeds, and even worse that few coaches take tempo into consideration.

This is where the whole "super slow" theory of training falls flat. As far as sport is concerned, whoever produces the most amount of force in the shortest amount of time wins. By purposely training slow, you learn to become slow. Reducing the speed of movement just increases the time a muscle is under tension, not the intensity. As far as bodybuilding, however, it does not matter so much because functionality of the muscles is not crucial. In that regard, training slow for a brief period can lead to hypertrophy, especially if the trainee has been lifting explosively for a while.

Generally speaking, however, sets that subject the muscles to less than 20 seconds of time under tension build strength, while those that take from 40 to 60 seconds to complete cause hypertrophy.

2. MVC's (Maximal Voluntary Contractions) are essential to the strength building process.

To build size and strength, it is essential to incorporate maximal voluntary contractions. In short, this means recruiting as many motor units as possible to develop force.

Contrary to what you might assume, an MVC does not always equate to a 1RM load. Rather, an MVC could be the last rep of a 5 or 6RM load, where performing another rep is impossible.

Working with 1RM loads, though, enables an athlete to achieve maximal motor unit activation (MUA). Do this enough times, and neural adaptations and increased strength occur.

This is why the rest-pause training methodology is so valuable. For those of you unfamiliar with it, it involves using a 1RM load, which activates the maximal number of motor units. The athlete then racks the bar, removes 2-5% of the load, and then repeats the lift. The process is then repeated, for usually no more than 8 reps.

3. An athlete should use between 70 and 100% of maximum capacity to develop maximal strength.

While there is still some controversy as to the exact range of percentages, many leading experts in strength training believe that the best way to develop maximal strength is to use weights that allow the athlete to perform between 1 and 12 reps at 70 to 100% of the athlete's 1RM.

Some say, however, that anything below 75% is best suited for developing muscular endurance, while others put the number at 60%.

It is my experience, however, that the lower threshold is 70%, but beginners, and especially women, can often make progress using loads that are approximately 60% of 1RM.

4. The range in repetitions needed to develop strength and/or hypertrophy decreases with training ag*e.*

Training age, or the number of years the athlete has been training, influences the 1RM continuum.

While the average beginning weight trainee can often do 20 reps at 75% of maximum, that same trainee may do 10 reps at 75% of maximum after a year. If that same trainee is examined five years later, he may only do 4 reps at 75% of maximum.

Why is this important? Consider the athlete with a training age of one year who can bench press 12 reps at 140 pounds, which is 70% of his 1RM. Perhaps when this trainee has been training for four years, his new 1RM is 400 pounds. However, he may now only be able to complete 6 reps using 70% of his 1RM, which is 280 pounds.











Given that it is generally agreed upon by the strength training community that that 70% is the minimum threshold for strength development, it would not be a good idea to prescribe weights lower than 70%, or repetitions higher than 6, as the weight would be too light to promote gains in strength.

5. The 1RM continuum varies greatly among muscle groups.

If an athlete performs his 12RM (the amount of weight he can lift 12 times) in the bench press, he may only be working at 70% of maximum, but at 12RM in the leg curl, he may only be working at 57% of maximum.

The extreme is even more remarkable when you consider certain lower body movements that employ a high stretch-shortening cycle component, such as leg presses. Many athletes can do 65 reps on the leg press while using a weight that is 70% of their maximum!

6. The number of repetitions is the loading parameter that athletes adapt to the most quickly.

It's best to vary rep range prescriptions often because the body adapts very quickly to given rep ranges. In fact, the average athlete adapts to a given number of reps in six workouts. When this adaptation occurs, it's virtually pointless to continue the same program.

One method with which I have had great success it to prescribe a given rep bracket for 2 workouts, lower it by 1 rep for the next two workouts, and then lower it by 1 rep yet again for one or two workouts.

Here is an example of such a progression:

Workouts 1-2: 4 sets x 6-8

Workouts 3-4: 5 sets x 5-7

Workouts 5-6: 5 sets x 4-6

7. Elite athletes must pay attention to the specificity of contraction force.

Generally speaking, reps in the 1RM to 5RM range increase maximal strength with minimal gains in mass. Reps in the 8RM to 15RM range produce greater gains in hypertrophy, while reps between 6RM and 7RM produce equal changes in hypertrophy and strength.

However, when considering athletes who have several years of training experience, low repetitions (1-5) must be used with high loads (85% or higher) for both relative and absolute strength, while mid-repetitions (6-12) must be used with sub maximal loads (70-84%) for absolute strength gains. High repetitions should be combined with light loads for strength-endurance (less than 70%).

In other words, athletes with more years of experience can train with a broader range of repetitions.

Along the same lines, periodically "straying" into unfamiliar rep ranges can have positive training effects that are not consistent with the norm. For instance, in athletes seeking hypertrophy, periodically employing programs that use 1RM to 5RM ranges can lead to increases in muscle size in addition to strength.

8. Don't perform low reps too frequently.

Sport scientist Robert Roman has written extensively on the training of competitive lifters and he concluded that the most successful weightlifters tend to do most of their sets in the 3RM to 4RM range.

This observation was echoed by Canadian weightlifting coach Pierre Roy, who believes that the average rep range for athletes should be 3.

The take home point is that if an athlete does singles or doubles for too long, he will stagnate. This, of course, is especially true for athletes who seek hypertrophy.

9. Each muscle group or lift responds best to a specific average rep range.

Throughout my career, I have had the opportunity to analyze the training logs of the hundreds of athletes that I've coached. As such, it has become apparent that the optimal rep range should be specific to the muscle group or exercise chosen.

For instance, in the case of the elbow flexors, the best strength gains were obtained when no less than an average of 2.5 reps per set were performed, with a minimum total of 15 reps per workout.

Along the same lines, for hypertrophy purposes, triceps generally respond better to fewer reps than the biceps (because the triceps are generally more fast-twitch). Another example regards the hamstrings, which generally require fewer reps than quadriceps, or the gastrocs, which require fewer reps than the soleus.

10. The function of the muscle dictates the number of reps.

You have no doubt heard your physiology professor say, "Form dictates function." It is also my experience there are specific rep ranges that are more appropriate for certain muscle functions.

As an example, training the knee flexors (hamstrings) with sets of 12 results in little hypertrophy. However, when training the knee extensors, sets of up to 50 reps (leg press) can induce hypertrophy. This probably has to do with the fact that the knee flexors are used for explosive tasks, while the knee extensors are used primarily for maintaining posture and in the execution of certain stretch-shortening tasks.

11. Vary reps for the upper body more than the lower body.

Recent studies confirm that using programs that employ variation in rep ranges was more beneficial for the upper body than the lower body.

For example, if designing a program for the bench press, it's more important to vary the reps often than it is for movements like the squat and deadlift.

12. High-rep training can increase capillary density.

Studies have shown that sets of more than 20 reps can increase capillary density, and capillary dense muscle can eventually lead to hypertrophy when one resumes more traditional rep schemes.

One such study, performed in 1973, showed that as little as one high-rep workout was enough to double the amount of mitochondria in muscle cells.

I think this is one reason why cyclists and speed skaters have such large quadriceps - they expose the muscles to an extreme amount of time under tension, thus facilitating capillary growth and hypertrophy of lower threshold motor units.

However, from personal experience, it seems that the quads, deltoids and lats would benefit from this type of training more than other muscle groups.

13. Reps performed in one exercise may have a different effect than reps performed for another exercise, even though both movements are for the same body part.

When comparing squats against leg press, squats are far more effective in increasing leg strength and overall strength. However, there is some evidence to suggest that the leg press might result in more hypertrophy of the quadriceps. One study, at least, showed that for the same number of reps, the leg press resulted in a higher amount of Growth Hormone being produced than squats.



As possible evidence, the leg press is the exercise of choice when it comes to speed skating, and I have personally worked with speed skaters whose legs made Tom Platz's look like Woody Allen's.

While I am loathe to recommend leg presses instead of squats, I merely present it as an interesting discussion point.

There are many more principles regarding the manipulation of reps that I use in designing programs, but the ones I have presented here should put you light years ahead of the average weight training pack.


----------



## winger

I skimmed it and really loved it.

Did anyone notice the suggested workout in reps?

Workouts 1-2: 4 sets x 6-8. Reps = 24-32.

Workouts 3-4: 5 sets x 5-7. Reps = 24-35.

Workouts 5-6: 5 sets x 4-6. Reps = 20-30.

Very similar on the rep range.


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## ragahav

for me I think variety works currently on 5*5 and will move to high rep schedule( for 4 weeks ) next month..........


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## nathanlowe

I have seen people stating that 4 to 8 reps is good for size and strength and that 8 to 12 is good for size.

But how many sets should be performed ?

I currently do 4 sets of 6 reps at the same weight.

So today im going to be doing 97.5kg deadlift 4 x 6. Does this mean that im training for size also ?


----------



## Iceman™

6-10 reps


----------



## shauno

lol at the poll options.

anything below 6 no good then?


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## Pritch30099

3-5 is the builder, 8-12 is the warm up 

Either way whatever reps you do your gaining


----------



## GSleigh

ChefX said:


> using a base of 1x2x I would say
> 
> 1-3 strength
> 
> 4-8 strength and size
> 
> 8-12 size
> 
> 13-20 size and endurance
> 
> 21 and up pure endurance
> 
> but it varies per person slightly and goals, other factors are diet 9example someone who eats less carbs, take creatine and other items to create satelite cells will be able to lift more weight with strength and endurance than someone else)
> 
> ect ect
> 
> IMO


I like this theory. I try to try and mix it up reguarly so that i work between different rep ranges and keep muscles guessing


----------



## JawD

As well as rep range, what about sets and frequency? Do many here do a standard 3 or 4 day split? Reading up, many suggest that for Hypertrophy the workload should be more frequent on a muscle group than say once per week. For example, rather than doing say 4 work sets for three exercises for your chest, you would do 2 but maybe twice per week. So you still get the same number of sets per week but and increased frequency of load?

Just wondering what peoples opinions on this were as well?


----------



## hackskii

JawD said:


> As well as rep range, what about sets and frequency? Do many here do a standard 3 or 4 day split? Reading up, many suggest that for Hypertrophy the workload should be more frequent on a muscle group than say once per week. For example, rather than doing say 4 work sets for three exercises for your chest, you would do 2 but maybe twice per week. So you still get the same number of sets per week but and increased frequency of load?
> 
> Just wondering what peoples opinions on this were as well?


Remember though, many exercises overlap.

Chest (presses), hit a combination of chest, front delt and triceps.

Military press also hits some tricep, as well as front delts, as well as dips.

So, if you lets say do chest and shoulders twice a week, then hit tricpes, the volume for triceps is probably overtraining.

Or, deadlifts as another example, they incourperate massive hamstrings, some quad, glute. If you were to isolate them twice a week, again you might do the same thing for them, and hamstrings predominantly have fast twitch muscle fibers, so doing more volume on them may hinder hypretrophy.

Just playing devils advocate here...lol


----------



## nathanlowe

hackskii said:


> Remember though, many exercises overlap.
> 
> Chest (presses), hit a combination of chest, front delt and triceps.
> 
> Military press also hits some tricep, as well as front delts, as well as dips.
> 
> So, if you lets say do chest and shoulders twice a week, then hit tricpes, the volume for triceps is probably overtraining.
> 
> Or, deadlifts as another example, they incourperate massive hamstrings, some quad, glute. If you were to isolate them twice a week, again you might do the same thing for them, and hamstrings predominantly have fast twitch muscle fibers, so doing more volume on them may hinder hypretrophy.
> 
> Just playing devils advocate here...lol


Thats a very good post.

Thats why i have a split of chest and biceps, back and triceps.

My chest gets hit on chest day, and it also gets hit with close grip bench and dips on back and tris day.


----------



## JawD

hackskii said:


> Remember though, many exercises overlap.
> 
> Chest (presses), hit a combination of chest, front delt and triceps.
> 
> Military press also hits some tricep, as well as front delts, as well as dips.
> 
> So, if you lets say do chest and shoulders twice a week, then hit tricpes, the volume for triceps is probably overtraining.
> 
> Or, deadlifts as another example, they incourperate massive hamstrings, some quad, glute. If you were to isolate them twice a week, again you might do the same thing for them, and hamstrings predominantly have fast twitch muscle fibers, so doing more volume on them may hinder hypretrophy.
> 
> Just playing devils advocate here...lol


Great point well made there 

Was thinking out loud when I typed that and yes you're right. I do a leg day, but also deads on my back day. I do Chest Presses but also shoulders on my leg day and so on.


----------



## hackskii

*I split my legs up.*

Back and hamstrings

Shoulders and tricep

Quads and calves

Chest and bicep

See how they dont interfere with next workout and have enough rest time in between?

I always take the next day off from lifting and will do cardio or nothing.


----------



## stsh

i go for the 8-10 reps, but im thinking of switching it up a bit and lifting more weight but doing 6-8 reps


----------



## Kezz

there is no best range, just mix and match eat well and you will grow


----------



## Nozza

It's a pointless poll because it is partially personal and very much about your own training history. If you have spent the last year only doing sets of 3 reps, you'll likely grow like a weed doing sets of 10.


----------



## Inggasson

10 for me. I don't beat myself up if I only make 8, but I pretty much always get 10, except for abs where I do 2 sets of 25 reps on two different exercises.


----------



## chillicrab

i try to work in between 6-15, i do not think there is any one perfect number or range to aim for. Ronnie Coleman seemed fine trainig in the 12-15 range lol. Different strokes for different folks me thinks lol


----------



## josnoddy

Mines 3x8, so far i've been gaining just over 5KG a week, bench pressing. 

I've only been taking it seriously for about 5 weeks now though, could still be classed as 'beginner gains'


----------



## Smitch

I've been told if you can't push out 6 reps the weight is too heavy for you.

Thoughts on that???


----------



## Smitch

I've been told if you can't push out 6 reps the weight is too heavy for you.

Thoughts on that???


----------



## pitbull1436114521

Guess i'm both 6-8 and 6-10 !

I like to hit failure on my final set between 6-8 reps but then i'll rest/pause a few more reps out so final count is around 8-10 reps.

PB


----------



## defdaz

I'm a high rep / advanced techniques man.

10 - 15 reps generally for upper body, 20+ on lower body.

Add to that various intensity uppers like forced reps, drop sets, super sets, negatives and partials and you've got a very safe method for triggering an adaptive hypertrophic response!


----------



## defdaz

ChefX said:


> using a base of 1x2x I would say
> 
> 1-3 strength
> 
> 4-8 strength and size
> 
> 8-12 size
> 
> 13-20 size and endurance
> 
> 21 and up pure endurance
> 
> but it varies per person slightly and goals, other factors are diet 9example someone who eats less carbs, take creatine and other items to create satelite cells will be able to lift more weight with strength and endurance than someone else)
> 
> ect ect
> 
> IMO


I really can't agree with this post :innocent: :whistling:


----------



## winger

defdaz said:


> I really can't agree with this post :innocent: :whistling:


Why?


----------



## carly

I do up to ten reps then start heavier on 8 and once increased strength to 10 move up a weight a repeat:thumb:


----------



## hackskii

winger said:


> Why?


Yah, why?


----------



## defdaz

Why? Well I'm only really disagreeing with the higher rep only good for endurance statement. For legs I hardly ever went below 15 reps, sometimes did 100 rep sets (not often, mind!) and other times did super sets, triple sets or even giant sets (four exercises, one after the other with as close to zero rest in between). I had big legs and not really very much endurance. 

Same for upper body - higher reps are safer, easier to improve your lifts with (i.e. to go from 6 reps to 7 reps is a 15%ish improvement but 19 reps to 20 reps is less than 5% - so your lifts improve more noticeably week by week), better pump, less joint and ligament stress and for me at least I grow very well indeed from higher reps.

I must note that I generally do the reps without any significant pauses at the top or bottom of each rep and generally try to keep tension on the muscles by not locking out - this means that the sets are pretty quick and very intense, not too dissimilar to lower rep sets in that respect. If you're taking a rest in between reps on a high rep set then no wonder it becomes a bit of an endurance event - each rep takes less out of you than on a low rep set so if you then go and rest a bit before the next rep you might have almost recovered from the previous rep so can then go on and on and on till you are bored. 

Also I did and still do use advanced high intensity techniques like forced reps, partials, drop sets and negatives - so this will cloud the issue a little!

HTH,

Daz


----------



## hackskii

Daz, would you say that lower reps with higher weight has a diffrent effect on the central nervous system?

Would this effect your one rep max or a stronger single rep?

If 10 reps on squats winds you some, would 20 rep squats wind you more?

If this is the case would you feel this would have anything positive on cardio conditioning?

If 70% of your one rep max works 90% of both the slow and fast twicth muscle groups, would hypertrophy in muscle be increased effectively firing both muscle fibers?


----------



## defdaz

CNS changes - important for powerlifters, less so for bodybuilder. In fact highly undesirable beyond a certain point if you ask me - for every increase in CNS derived weight lifted you're placing more demand on your support structures and not gaining in muscle - bit crazy wouldn't you agree? I.e. you're lifting more but at the same size. As a bodybuilder you want to lift the minimum weights that get you the size you want - not great for the ego maybe but the large muscles help deal with it 

Compare the cardio conditioning benefits of a 10 rep set of squats against a 20 rep set? That's possible but what about comparing both to a 30 minute jog? Plot them against a chart and you'd find that the 10 and 20 rep sets are grouped very closely together and a very long way away from the jog. 

Need to remember that the needs immediately after a 10 or 20 rep set of squats is immensely different to the needs during or after a proper endurance type activity. With squats or any major anaerobic load the body's prime aim is to deal with the sudden lactic acid build up, drop in blood sugar, ensuring enough oxygen gets to the brain and so on. In an endurance activity it's getting the oxygen to the muscles that are exercising aerobically. Completely different.

70% might work 90% on the first rep. By the time you reach failure you'll be at 100%. Same as the one rep set but reached after a few reps. Personally I'd like to reach that point with my muscles, joints and tendons intact! One torn pec is enough... yeah I'm a slow learner. 

Sometimes I wish I hadn't done nutrition, physiology and biochemistry at uni!

Cheers,

Daz

PS I'm not really arguing about the endurance benefits, more that you won't grow on higher reps.


----------



## hackskii

defdaz said:


> Why? Well I'm only really disagreeing with the higher rep only good for endurance statement.


OMG, just re-read your post and I got the impression you were disagreeing with the whole post by Chefx......oopsie.....

I was asking questions because I thought you disagreed with the entire post.

I was kind of playing devils advocate....lol

I was drawing you out........ 

I appreciate you taking the time to type up something on depth.

I agree with the CNS changes, I have found myself run down by trying a max with a heavy weight, and yah, I got a shoulder injury on that one, which actually tore my outter head of my bicep to shoulder attachment.

You would have thought a guy in his 40's would have learned (I was on a cycle at the time and pushed past my genetic disposition).

I will be 49 this year and have trained over 30 years, now I get in, stimulate the muscle, then get out and recover, I have found this takes the least amount of time for me, and the best bang for the buck.

I spend very little time in the gym, but I dont play around either.

Thanks for your other responces.

Can I ask you a question?

I know lactic acid is a byproduct of anaerobic exerise.

I also know it is removed from the body by respiration.

I would like to know if any of this is recycled back into the body and by what mechanism.

Sorry, one more.

Lactic acid buildup post workout, is it a good idea to use Bi-carb with your refeed to buffer lactic acid?

I think it was Poliquin that suggested this but I cant remember.

Your thoughts please would be greatly appreciated.


----------



## winger

hackskii said:


> I will be 49 this year and have trained over 30 years,


You are 49 and you will be 50 this year. They say the memory is the first thing to go. :whistling:


----------



## defdaz

Hey Scott, no worries mate - I enjoy these sorts of discussions!

Sorry to hear you tore your outer biceps, did you manage to get it reattached ok?

Lactic acid is actually recycled pretty efficiently into glucose - fab webpage here:

http://courses.coe.asu.edu/dbclark/teams/marathon/paul%20and%20grant/Lesson%206%20Anaerobic%20Lactic%20Acid%20System.htm

I don't think you can alter your pH buffering capabilities by supplementing with bicarbonate of soda - the body has a pH buffering system in place that acts to keep the blood at pH 7.4 (homeostasis is the golden rule for bodies - they just want to stay how they are). Just as it will counter the acidic changes caused by lactic acid it will counter the alkaline effect of ingesting bicarb of soda, rendering it a pointless task (unless you take so much you overwhelm your body's ability to deal with the pH change - but do you really want to radically alter your pH level? Not unless you like your biochemical reactions to stop working, your cells to start dying and you following on shortly after!).

I think the best way to deal with lactic acid is to ensure you're fit cardiovascular-wise and that your liver is in good shape. Some active cool down exercise seems to help too (like a slow walk after training legs for instance).

Daz


----------



## hackskii

defdaz said:


> Hey Scott, no worries mate - I enjoy these sorts of discussions!
> 
> Sorry to hear you tore your outer biceps, did you manage to get it reattached ok?
> 
> Lactic acid is actually recycled pretty efficiently into glucose - fab webpage here:
> 
> http://courses.coe.asu.edu/dbclark/teams/marathon/paul%20and%20grant/Lesson%206%20Anaerobic%20Lactic%20Acid%20System.htm
> 
> I don't think you can alter your pH buffering capabilities by supplementing with bicarbonate of soda - the body has a pH buffering system in place that acts to keep the blood at pH 7.4 (homeostasis is the golden rule for bodies - they just want to stay how they are). Just as it will counter the acidic changes caused by lactic acid it will counter the alkaline effect of ingesting bicarb of soda, rendering it a pointless task (unless you take so much you overwhelm your body's ability to deal with the pH change - but do you really want to radically alter your pH level? Not unless you like your biochemical reactions to stop working, your cells to start dying and you following on shortly after!).
> 
> I think the best way to deal with lactic acid is to ensure you're fit cardiovascular-wise and that your liver is in good shape. Some active cool down exercise seems to help too (like a slow walk after training legs for instance).
> 
> Daz


WOW, that was interesting even though It took a minute and some I had to read more than once.

Hey, do you have a link to the start of those studies?

I would not mind starting from the beginning.

Here is a bit of irony, I posted an article buy some PHD dude on acid ashing and alkaline ashing, then a scientist from Cambridge I think posted on it, he talked about blood pH and other things.

He basicly said it was bad science.

I had bought a water ionizer for making alkaline water.

Yesterday a guy from work bought an alkaline water purifier for $1600.00 and it was the same one I bought.

So a guy prints up a 19 page article on the alkaline water snake oil on tap, and I started reading that. This dude is a chemist of some sort.

I read 4 pages and it is pertty deep stuff.

Tha author called it psudoscience.

Then I came back to this thread and you touched on this some too.

The more I read on this the more I have to change my position some in regards to the water anyway, and potentially being moved in my position on alkaline vs acidic conditions.

I do check my urine pH and saliva pH, and I do feel a diet that is naturally high in minerals would be a good idea anyway.

Do you have a link to the first study page for that?

Id like to read bits each day to learn.


----------



## defdaz

Hey bud,

No I don't have the link for the start of that course but google is your friend  A quick search on the citric acid cycle (Krebs cycle) for instance produces a lot of good results. Maybe some human physiology / biochemistry books from amazon would be useful too (I know from my degree how great those books are!)?

Those water ionisers... omg. I just had a quick search about them and read "Our bodies become acidic over time." ... what a load of crap, sorry. If they did you'd die. Simple really.

It got worse... 'Every time we drink a cup of coffee, or consume processed foods, our acidic level rises.' I can't even begin to tell you how annoyed this makes me. These people need to read a dictionary and figure out what 'buffer' means. D'oh! 

Your blood pH HAS to stay within a very narrow - this is why your pH buffering capabilities are so prodigious.

Daz


----------



## anabolic ant

i'd say about 4-8reps...the lower reps should be more explosive,for strength and mass!!!

as the reps go up,you will get more of a pump too!!!!


----------



## ZAXXXXX

I use rep ranges anything from 4-20, after hitting failure on the last set I like to rest for a couple of minutes and then do a set of 20 with about a third of my last working sets weight. Massive pump and that lovely burning sensation is the end result and good rate of growth too.


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## OnePack

low reps for compound and med to high for rest


----------



## ragahav

I am on 5*5 currently and would say it works for me...


----------



## Incredible Bulk

i use different rep ranges all the time, most likely only make my mind up what i'm going to do as soon as i hit the gym floor

"what do i feel like today"

keeps things fresh...


----------



## winger

Incredible Bulk said:


> keeps things fresh...


Minty fresh :whistling:


----------



## fozyspilgrims

At the moment i am doing 5x5 but i am planing on adding some volume work and mixing it up in the future.


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## stavmangr

6-12 but you must take the set to failure,during the set the 2a fibers are recruited first if the set is comleted before approaching failure then primary the 2a fibers are worked.

If the same set is taken to failure then the 2b fibers come into play.Stimulating the the

2b fibers is the fastest and most effective way to make muscles grow.


----------



## Dezw

I was always taught that 8-12 was the optimal rep range for size.

But from my experiences and watching other people I think it is entirely individual.

Different things work for different people.


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## dingosteve

i do upto 10 max after that its very much staying power ...


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## winger

What works for one guy might not work as well for the other. The body adapts so fast to stimulus that if you don't change up rep ranges and exercises then you wont grow as fast, IMO.

I always very rep ranges. One week heavy, maybe next week more reps, just change it up.


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## Dsahna

4 to 6 to failure every set works for me.


----------



## powell

the 8-12 rep rage definately works best for me.


----------



## wes

BSF James said:


> I'm not sure if I believe its as cut and dry as one particular rep range is best for building size.
> 
> Personally I think a variety works best. I believe in doing high rep and low rep workouts either in rotation or in training mesocycles. I think a variety of rep ranges is the only way to maximise gains in both fast and slow twitch fibres.
> 
> For strength, however, from experience I believe 5x5 works best.


Spot on. Doing two workouts at the moment. One week is low rep. The next week is high rep and I'm growing again.

When I wanted to up the weights 5 x 5 was fantastic.

But whatever you do. If you want size, eat like an animal and train like a beast.


----------



## Howe

BSF James said:


> I'm not sure if I believe its as cut and dry as one particular rep range is best for building size.
> 
> There are bodybuilders with tremendous physiques who've always trained with high reps. Just as there are great physiques that have come from doing many sets and also few sets (volume vs HIT).
> 
> Personally I think a variety works best. I believe in doing high rep and low rep workouts either in rotation or in training mesocycles. I think a variety of rep ranges is the only way to maximise gains in both fast and slow twitch fibres.
> 
> For strength, however, from experience I believe 5x5 works best.


Great Post! I agree!


----------



## hamsternuts

i've recently started doing more reps for legs, as recommended by dorian yates in his video, and thinking about it, they are big enough to handle more reps, so it's 12 reps minimum for most leg exercises for me now


----------



## big_jim_87

i usualy go for 6-8 but i go 3,4,5, reps maby as high as 11,12 but never working sets of 13 or more. i think the key is to mix things up


----------



## willsey4

For bodybuilding 10-12 reps


----------



## stickman

6 - 12 reps, upper body mass

12 - 15 reps, lower body mass


----------



## dtlv

I think that it depends upon the individual muscle and proportion of fiber types as to which rep range works best... a fast twitch dominant muscle will grow better with failure at low reps while a slow twitch dominant will respond better to higher reps.

It makes sense to mix it up though as all muscles have a combination of fiber types and, if training for hypertrophy as opposed to just raw strength, then you want to be hitting all of them over time.

Personally am becoming a big fan of heavy and light training... one session where I take train at 4-6 reps and another where I train at 15-20 reps.

After a few months on this will switch to a more normal 6-12 range to shake it up a bit.


----------



## rodrigo

Jock said:


> 4-6 reps for me, currently on 5x5 and gaining well.....


 i got some great strength gains on the 5x5 trainin so some size came along with it, am going back to it next week actually best plateau buster for me :thumb:


----------



## mph

I found 5x5 was good for strength but Hypertrophy-Specific Training (HST) for size.


----------



## defdaz

There really seems to be a fear of higher reps amongst a majority of us bodybuilders. Very strange. I wonder how many of you low reppers have tried high reps for any considerable period of time to see what results you get?

I grow fine from high reps (15 - 20 upper body, 20 - 25 lower body) and avoid ligament and joint damage at the same time (and get pumped to fvck! LMAO!).


----------



## Andy Dee

I never had any problem doin high reps.

I did 8-12 thing for years and built tons of mass, I just never really got the strenght to match my size and I find that lower reps and heavier weight has helped me overcome this.


----------



## JasonLDN

Depends realy, for legs 10-12 reps for me.

Chest-weakest bodypart, i mostly trained in the 6-8 rep range.

im gonna bump it up to 8-12

Arms for me 5-6 reps on comounds such as rows, chins and bench presses.


----------



## mph

defdaz said:


> There really seems to be a fear of higher reps amongst a majority of us bodybuilders. Very strange. I wonder how many of you low reppers have tried high reps for any considerable period of time to see what results you get?
> 
> I grow fine from high reps (15 - 20 upper body, 20 - 25 lower body) and avoid ligament and joint damage at the same time (and get pumped to fvck! LMAO!).


Giving something similar a go a the moment and can def agree with the pumps!


----------



## UnitedFan

When I first started training I did 8-10 rep range and got a slower growth rate compared to what I have the last 3-4 months.

Now I'm doing 10,8,6 while increasing the weight aswell. Feels good 

I'm thinking about mixing it up with my leg exercises though


----------



## anabolic ant

Manipulating Reps for Gains in Size and Strength

by Charles Poliquin

Perhaps the most important loading parameter in designing exercise programs is not the number of sets, the tempo used, or even the specific exercises employed, but the number of repetitions selected.

It is clear that the most important variable to strength training is the amount of resistance used. The amount of weight determines the tension put on a muscle, and how long this tension is maintained determines the muscle's response. In fact, subtle manipulations can make the difference between increases in strength, increases in size and increases in endurance.

And the wrong manipulation can make the set, and indeed, the whole exercise session, worthless.

Obviously, the number of repetitions performed determines how much the athlete can lift, and given this fact, I have come up with 24 principles that can influence your decision, approximately half of which are presented in this article.

Whether you design programs for others or just yourself, many of these principles should help you in attaining your physique goals.

1. The number of reps done for a given time under tension dictates the training effect.

Training intensities can be altered in one of two ways: by having the athlete work at a higher percentage of his max (heavier weights), or moving the weight faster during the lifting, or concentric part of the lift.

While the number of reps an athlete performs also influences the training effect, it's mandatory that the speed used to execute the movement also be considered. It's too bad that very few researchers take into consideration the effects of different repetition speeds, and even worse that few coaches take tempo into consideration.

This is where the whole "super slow" theory of training falls flat. As far as sport is concerned, whoever produces the most amount of force in the shortest amount of time wins. By purposely training slow, you learn to become slow. Reducing the speed of movement just increases the time a muscle is under tension, not the intensity. As far as bodybuilding, however, it does not matter so much because functionality of the muscles is not crucial. In that regard, training slow for a brief period can lead to hypertrophy, especially if the trainee has been lifting explosively for a while.

Generally speaking, however, sets that subject the muscles to less than 20 seconds of time under tension build strength, while those that take from 40 to 60 seconds to complete cause hypertrophy.

2. MVC's (Maximal Voluntary Contractions) are essential to the strength building process.

To build size and strength, it is essential to incorporate maximal voluntary contractions. In short, this means recruiting as many motor units as possible to develop force.

Contrary to what you might assume, an MVC does not always equate to a 1RM load. Rather, an MVC could be the last rep of a 5 or 6RM load, where performing another rep is impossible.

Working with 1RM loads, though, enables an athlete to achieve maximal motor unit activation (MUA). Do this enough times, and neural adaptations and increased strength occur.

This is why the rest-pause training methodology is so valuable. For those of you unfamiliar with it, it involves using a 1RM load, which activates the maximal number of motor units. The athlete then racks the bar, removes 2-5% of the load, and then repeats the lift. The process is then repeated, for usually no more than 8 reps.

3. An athlete should use between 70 and 100% of maximum capacity to develop maximal strength.

While there is still some controversy as to the exact range of percentages, many leading experts in strength training believe that the best way to develop maximal strength is to use weights that allow the athlete to perform between 1 and 12 reps at 70 to 100% of the athlete's 1RM.

Some say, however, that anything below 75% is best suited for developing muscular endurance, while others put the number at 60%.

It is my experience, however, that the lower threshold is 70%, but beginners, and especially women, can often make progress using loads that are approximately 60% of 1RM.

4. The range in repetitions needed to develop strength and/or hypertrophy decreases with training age.

Training age, or the number of years the athlete has been training, influences the 1RM continuum.

While the average beginning weight trainee can often do 20 reps at 75% of maximum, that same trainee may do 10 reps at 75% of maximum after a year. If that same trainee is examined five years later, he may only do 4 reps at 75% of maximum.

Why is this important? Consider the athlete with a training age of one year who can bench press 12 reps at 140 pounds, which is 70% of his 1RM. Perhaps when this trainee has been training for four years, his new 1RM is 400 pounds. However, he may now only be able to complete 6 reps using 70% of his 1RM, which is 280 pounds.

Given that it is generally agreed upon by the strength training community that that 70% is the minimum threshold for strength development, it would not be a good idea to prescribe weights lower than 70%, or repetitions higher than 6, as the weight would be too light to promote gains in strength.

5. The 1RM continuum varies greatly among muscle groups.

If an athlete performs his 12RM (the amount of weight he can lift 12 times) in the bench press, he may only be working at 70% of maximum, but at 12RM in the leg curl, he may only be working at 57% of maximum.

The extreme is even more remarkable when you consider certain lower body movements that employ a high stretch-shortening cycle component, such as leg presses. Many athletes can do 65 reps on the leg press while using a weight that is 70% of their maximum!

6. The number of repetitions is the loading parameter that athletes adapt to the most quickly.

It's best to vary rep range prescriptions often because the body adapts very quickly to given rep ranges. In fact, the average athlete adapts to a given number of reps in six workouts. When this adaptation occurs, it's virtually pointless to continue the same program.

One method with which I have had great success it to prescribe a given rep bracket for 2 workouts, lower it by 1 rep for the next two workouts, and then lower it by 1 rep yet again for one or two workouts.

Here is an example of such a progression:

Workouts 1-2: 4 sets x 6-8

Workouts 3-4: 5 sets x 5-7

Workouts 5-6: 5 sets x 4-6

7. Elite athletes must pay attention to the specificity of contraction force.

Generally speaking, reps in the 1RM to 5RM range increase maximal strength with minimal gains in mass. Reps in the 8RM to 15RM range produce greater gains in hypertrophy, while reps between 6RM and 7RM produce equal changes in hypertrophy and strength.

However, when considering athletes who have several years of training experience, low repetitions (1-5) must be used with high loads (85% or higher) for both relative and absolute strength, while mid-repetitions (6-12) must be used with sub maximal loads (70-84%) for absolute strength gains. High repetitions should be combined with light loads for strength-endurance (less than 70%).

In other words, athletes with more years of experience can train with a broader range of repetitions.

Along the same lines, periodically "straying" into unfamiliar rep ranges can have positive training effects that are not consistent with the norm. For instance, in athletes seeking hypertrophy, periodically employing programs that use 1RM to 5RM ranges can lead to increases in muscle size in addition to strength.

8. Don't perform low reps too frequently.

Sport scientist Robert Roman has written extensively on the training of competitive lifters and he concluded that the most successful weightlifters tend to do most of their sets in the 3RM to 4RM range.

This observation was echoed by Canadian weightlifting coach Pierre Roy, who believes that the average rep range for athletes should be 3.

The take home point is that if an athlete does singles or doubles for too long, he will stagnate. This, of course, is especially true for athletes who seek hypertrophy.

9. Each muscle group or lift responds best to a specific average rep range.

Throughout my career, I have had the opportunity to analyze the training logs of the hundreds of athletes that I've coached. As such, it has become apparent that the optimal rep range should be specific to the muscle group or exercise chosen.

For instance, in the case of the elbow flexors, the best strength gains were obtained when no less than an average of 2.5 reps per set were performed, with a minimum total of 15 reps per workout.

Along the same lines, for hypertrophy purposes, triceps generally respond better to fewer reps than the biceps (because the triceps are generally more fast-twitch). Another example regards the hamstrings, which generally require fewer reps than quadriceps, or the gastrocs, which require fewer reps than the soleus.

10. The function of the muscle dictates the number of reps.

You have no doubt heard your physiology professor say, "Form dictates function." It is also my experience there are specific rep ranges that are more appropriate for certain muscle functions.

As an example, training the knee flexors (hamstrings) with sets of 12 results in little hypertrophy. However, when training the knee extensors, sets of up to 50 reps (leg press) can induce hypertrophy. This probably has to do with the fact that the knee flexors are used for explosive tasks, while the knee extensors are used primarily for maintaining posture and in the execution of certain stretch-shortening tasks.

11. Vary reps for the upper body more than the lower body.

Recent studies confirm that using programs that employ variation in rep ranges was more beneficial for the upper body than the lower body.

For example, if designing a program for the bench press, it's more important to vary the reps often than it is for movements like the squat and deadlift.

12. High-rep training can increase capillary density.

Studies have shown that sets of more than 20 reps can increase capillary density, and capillary dense muscle can eventually lead to hypertrophy when one resumes more traditional rep schemes.

One such study, performed in 1973, showed that as little as one high-rep workout was enough to double the amount of mitochondria in muscle cells.

I think this is one reason why cyclists and speed skaters have such large quadriceps - they expose the muscles to an extreme amount of time under tension, thus facilitating capillary growth and hypertrophy of lower threshold motor units.

However, from personal experience, it seems that the quads, deltoids and lats would benefit from this type of training more than other muscle groups.

13. Reps performed in one exercise may have a different effect than reps performed for another exercise, even though both movements are for the same body part.

When comparing squats against leg press, squats are far more effective in increasing leg strength and overall strength. However, there is some evidence to suggest that the leg press might result in more hypertrophy of the quadriceps. One study, at least, showed that for the same number of reps, the leg press resulted in a higher amount of Growth Hormone being produced than squats.

As possible evidence, the leg press is the exercise of choice when it comes to speed skating, and I have personally worked with speed skaters whose legs made Tom Platz's look like Woody Allen's.

While I am loathe to recommend leg presses instead of squats, I merely present it as an interesting discussion point.

There are many more principles regarding the manipulation of reps that I use in designing programs, but the ones I have presented here should put you light years ahead of the average weight training pack.

Editor's note: This article is a brief extract of some the material presented in the Poliquin International Certification Program Level Theory 1 Manual that can be purchased at www.CharlesPoliquin.net.


----------



## mph

interesting, nice post.


----------



## cecil_sensation

Jock said:


> 4-6 reps for me, currently on 5x5 and gaining well.....


whats 5x5 mate?


----------



## winger

oliver Roberts said:


> whats 5x5 mate?


5 sets of 5 reps.


----------



## mph

oliver Roberts said:


> whats 5x5 mate?


I used this for my reference to 5x5 (hope posting an other forums info is ok?):

http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/weight-training-weight-lifting/training-information-vault-programs-exercises-articles-more-start-here-655389.html


----------



## synthasize

ive onyl really gone on a proper 'bulk' for the first time over the last 4 weeks and hopefully until easter, but im doing 5x5 and loving the quick strength gains and for size i think it builds well. just make sure you keep track of the weights and as soon as your 5th set becomes easy up the kg's. mixing it up is definitely the best idea, but for me im mixing it up over a longer period, as ill train 3/4x8-12 for a couple months then go to 5x5/6 for a while


----------



## tylerx

I have programs through out the last ten years of training, for me 8-12 works great. However having said that I have also used 4-6 rep range have been super super strong and still put on great size.

In saying all of this, I must be honest, my arms need volume to move on forward, I can go heavy but that does not result in any growth in that area. So what I do is hit them with reps of 10-12 with 4-5 sets.

In recent weeks I have solved the puzzle for my calves, they are damn strong but were lacking in size. I tried everything and finally found something which is working for me. I now hit them with multiple sets. Medium reps 12-20 Normally working my way down trying not to go lower than 12. Sometimes 4 sets at other times 5 sets. I then move move to another exercise and may then pump out sets of 20 solid presses with minimal. When it comes to calves I have begun to train with relentless intensity, I do work them out I violate them.

In saying all of this and perhaps venturing off the topic I would say some of the most important things are intensity,variety, diet and rest.


----------



## Replicator

BSF James said:


> I'm not sure if I believe its as cut and dry as one particular rep range is best for building size.
> 
> There are bodybuilders with tremendous physiques who've always trained with high reps. Just as there are great physiques that have come from doing many sets and also few sets (volume vs HIT).
> 
> Personally I think a variety works best. I believe in doing high rep and low rep workouts either in rotation or in training mesocycles. I think a variety of rep ranges is the only way to maximise gains in both fast and slow twitch fibres.
> 
> For strength, however, from experience I believe 5x5 works best.


Totally agree with this.

Personally tho I cant/wont go under 8 reps now because Im sick of injuires under 8 reps . .............Replicator has now been injury free for at least 3 years.


----------



## big_jim_87

iv prob posted up in this allready but mix it up best bet


----------



## BigStew

I agree with all those that say mixing it up is best. There are so many variables to training, that one hard & fast, set rule would or could never work for everybody, all the time.

Your muscles do not know what something weighs & nor can they count reps, only the brain tells you this & that is obviously the weakest link, (most people will tell themselves to do x number of reps with whatever weight & stop there but if they told/forced themselves to do 1, 2, 5 etc extra reps, they would, somehow/eventually! I also believe, same as many others, that the muscles can get used to a given set/rep range if performed consistently for too long & to never do exactly the same workout more than 2 weeks running.

My training partner & I generally change rep ranges every 2 weeks on every bodypart, but never below 8 (injury zone!) from....20-12, 15-10, 12-8, supersets & dropsets. We find this keeps the body guessing & for us, prevents stagnation &/or burn out, keeps the workouts more challenging, interesting & to get stronger & grow steadily.

For legs however, we find that doing far higher reps stimulates growth better, seeing as they are an incredibly strong set of muscles & used all the time all day, so their endurance is far higher. We regularly perform anything between 500-1000 reps each workout to completely fcuk & fry the legs into oblivion. (Today's was....Ext = 5 sets: 50/40/30/20/10, Leg press = 10 sets: 100/90/80/70/60/50/40/30/20/10, Ext = 4 sets: 25/25/25/25 [it took 80 mins]).


----------



## Dantreadz85

why is below 8 injury zone ??? i dont think i have ever gone above


----------



## gumballdom

Dantreadz85 said:


> why is below 8 injury zone ??? i dont think i have ever gone above


i think its simply because the increased loads that you can move in the 1 - 6 rep range puts increased stress on the body, making you more prone to muscle tears etc


----------



## -Jack-

8 rep x 4


----------



## mal

2-21


----------



## Críostóir

Here I found this link of rep ranges:

http://www.kandiymca.org/images/Wayne/Repitition%20Ranges%20-%20%20Adult%2012.pdf

Interesting read 

"It has long been assumed that training with heavier resistance and

fewer repetitions is more productive for building muscle strength,

whereas training with lighter resistance and more repetitions is more

appropriate for enhancing muscle endurance."


----------



## mal

i did some hi rep training today for my arms


----------



## Earl-Hickey

i do 10's, but im going for a combo of tone and size


----------



## Earl-Hickey

ruaidhri said:


> :lol:


What? it makes sense.

Low reps (about 5) is to "get big"

high reps 15-20 is to "tone up"

i want to be half-way in between, athletic and big, but not like an overinflated baloon with veins popping out everywhere


----------



## Big Will 08

Earl-Hickey said:


> What? it makes sense.
> 
> Low reps (about 5) is to "get big"
> 
> high reps 15-20 is to "tone up"
> 
> i want to be half-way in between, athletic and big, but not like an overinflated baloon with veins popping out everywhere


Lmao! have you not learnt anything from this forum?

Doing 15-20 reps doesnt "tone you up" All it does is burn fat. You cant "tone" a muscle, you can only build a muscle.

To make a muscle look more defined you have to shred the fat by doing cardio and altering your diet.


----------



## Normangorman

tylerx said:


> I have programs through out the last ten years of training, for me 8-12 works great. However having said that I have also used 4-6 rep range have been super super strong and still put on great size.
> 
> In saying all of this, I must be honest, my arms need volume to move on forward, I can go heavy but that does not result in any growth in that area. So what I do is hit them with reps of 10-12 with 4-5 sets.
> 
> In recent weeks I have solved the puzzle for my calves, they are damn strong but were lacking in size. I tried everything and finally found something which is working for me. I now hit them with multiple sets. Medium reps 12-20 Normally working my way down trying not to go lower than 12. Sometimes 4 sets at other times 5 sets. I then move move to another exercise and may then pump out sets of 20 solid presses with minimal. When it comes to calves I have begun to train with relentless intensity, I do work them out I violate them.
> 
> In saying all of this and perhaps *venturing off the topic* I would say some of the most important things are *intensity,variety, diet and rest*.


X2. Definitely not off topic. Excellent advice. :thumbup1:


----------



## flapjack

Big Will 08 said:


> Lmao! have you not learnt anything from this forum?
> 
> Doing 15-20 reps doesnt "tone you up" *All it does is burn fat.* You cant "tone" a muscle, you can only build a muscle.
> 
> To make a muscle look more defined *you have to shred the fat* by doing cardio and altering your diet.


Or to put it another way, Don't do high reps it will just burn fat. If you want to look more toned find a way to burn fat.

What the fook is the guy trying to say????????????

Your logic is sound Earl. What big willy is trying to say is anyone's guess.


----------



## Big Gunz

^ :lol:

@big will 08: all high reps does is work on your muscular endurance, i.e. helps to be able to sustain a given load for a number of reps. You wont lose fat from doing that.


----------



## Fragjuice

What about when using a neck harness?

I do 65 reps with 20 kilos - Are you lot saying that if I add more weight and do what 10 reps/set my neck will grow quicker?

I've always found the neck to be odd :stuart:


----------



## Kezz

food builds size not reps... high reps low reps medium reps all work, if anyone tell you any different they are talking bollox


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## Andy Dee

Kezz said:


> food builds size not reps... high reps low reps medium reps all work, if anyone tell you any different they are talking bollox


I agree, low reps builds strength top middle bottom does the other is b0llax, end of the day it all works.

Ive trained with low volume and heavy plates focusing on nothing but strength the past 4 months since being back and Ive never gained so much size in another other time as I have following this principle for the very first time.

If you eat enough food to build size, you will grow anyway regardless of what rep ranges you do, even if your trainings sh1t.

I know plenty of guys on here train with low volume and go heavy as fck and they are beasts of a size and dont look like crap either.


----------



## coleman10

Ive always stuck to doing 8-12 reps to build. i range it from 8-12 to build. Ill do roughly 4 -5 sets starting as heavy as possible doing 8 going to 12 doing lighter. I think this works best for me


----------



## Huntingground

I do 6,4,2,6 reps. 4 sets per bodypart.


----------



## Nutz01

andysutils said:


> I agree, low reps builds strength top middle bottom does the other is b0llax, end of the day it all works.
> 
> Ive trained with low volume and heavy plates focusing on nothing but strength the past 4 months since being back and Ive never gained so much size in another other time as I have following this principle for the very first time.
> 
> If you eat enough food to build size, you will grow anyway regardless of what rep ranges you do, even if your trainings sh1t.
> 
> I know plenty of guys on here train with low volume and go heavy as fck and they are beasts of a size and dont look like crap either.


Firstly, i'm no expert but I would have to agree.

My reason is this.

Apart from perfecting the form with a lower weight, I go as heavy as I can for 4 sets of 6 - 8 reps, I gained quite nicely.

I tryied the low weight high volume method and gained fvck all, same diet!

For the last month, I've gone back to lifting as heavy as i can and started to make respectable gains.

I'm not sure if its a body shock thing, but ill continue going heavy untill a point when I stop gaining, then ill have a look at my diet. If that does not start producing results, then I can only asume that I stop gaining because my body is adapting, and ill look at my training again.

I'm hoping to get time to start a journal, which i've been meaning to do for months now but never got time.

If i'm right or wrong on any of the above, as I said i'm no expert, and would gladly be corrected by the experts on here.

:beer:


----------



## piper

For me 8 reps are the best. Just gone from 4 exersises per muscle to 5 so 5x5 and I notice massive results within 2 weeks.


----------



## Andy Dee

Nutz01 said:


> Firstly, i'm no expert but I would have to agree.
> 
> My reason is this.
> 
> Apart from perfecting the form with a lower weight, I go as heavy as I can for 4 sets of 6 - 8 reps, I gained quite nicely.
> 
> *I tryied the low weight high volume method and gained fvck all, same diet!*
> 
> *
> *
> 
> *
> For the last month, I've gone back to lifting as heavy as i can and started to make respectable gains.*
> 
> I'm not sure if its a body shock thing, but ill continue going heavy untill a point when I stop gaining, then ill have a look at my diet. If that does not start producing results, then I can only asume that I stop gaining because my body is adapting, and ill look at my training again.
> 
> I'm hoping to get time to start a journal, which i've been meaning to do for months now but never got time.
> 
> If i'm right or wrong on any of the above, as I said i'm no expert, and would gladly be corrected by the experts on here.
> 
> :beer:


Ditto, ive just switched to going from 5 reps to 8-10 and its not really doing a lot for me tbh, but like some others have said, maybe i just need to give the new routine time.

I think for ectos/skinny frames, low volume heavy weight is the way to go.


----------



## Nutz01

I'm starting to think that this rep range for size and strength is a load of bull.

surely size and strength is directly related.

how can you have big muscles but be weak as a kitten.

work hard, eat well, and surely size will come hand in hand with strength


----------



## Suitelf11

Jay cutler does 10~ reps

All powerlifters are lower in reps.

Do the maths.


----------



## martin brown

Suitelf11 said:


> Jay cutler does 10~ reps
> 
> All powerlifters are lower in reps.
> 
> Do the maths.


Do most people have Jay Cutler's muscle?


----------



## Andy Dee

Suitelf11 said:


> Jay cutler does 10~ reps
> 
> All powerlifters are lower in reps.
> 
> Do the maths.


your right, no wonder ive made no progress training 3 days a week.

I'll start training 6 days per week starting from tommorow following Mr olympia routines So i can compete against them.


----------



## Squirrel

For years I've worked quads in the 8-12 rep range with fair results, but after reading several threads on here relating to high reps for legs I've started to do leg press in the 20-50 rep range & squats in the 12-20 rep range, feels like hell but quads have exploded....Exception to the rule?


----------



## M.V.P

Its funny to me that so many people have different ideal workout rep ranges. Not funny haha but funny in a strange way. For me my legs respond extremely well to 5 reps and gain mass like no tomorrow. My arms respond fantastically to 8 reps, same with my chest (6-8). I guess there is no global ideal range, everyone has a unique ideal range for gaining mass. Best way to find out is through experience.


----------



## chelios

I saw most games with 5 reps on 5 x 5.


----------



## Kezz

no special way, vary your training and most important keep consistant with it and your gains will come... i prefer higher reps and intense sessions but that just me,, you just have to give everything a go and see what you prefer


----------



## Clubber Lang

ive always thought that reps between 6-8 were best for massive, but to be honest im thinking maybe 12-15 reps are best now.

ive been watching the Dorian Yates video on Youtube training Mark Dugdale at Temple Gym, and from what ive seen and heard Dorian prefers high reps of 12-15 for maximum muscle stimulation, especially for legs.

worth sitting down and watching, its under 'A Week In the Dungeon'


----------



## hsmann87

BSF James said:


> I'm not sure if I believe its as cut and dry as one particular rep range is best for building size.
> 
> There are bodybuilders with tremendous physiques who've always trained with high reps. Just as there are great physiques that have come from doing many sets and also few sets (volume vs HIT).
> 
> Personally I think a variety works best. I believe in doing high rep and low rep workouts either in rotation or in training mesocycles. I think a variety of rep ranges is the only way to maximise gains in both fast and slow twitch fibres.
> 
> For strength, however, from experience I believe 5x5 works best.


 yeah bwoooy!

i am in no position to be able to say X reps is the way to build size as i am still very much a work in progress, however the mass that i have put on over the past 3 years of training has come from single rep sets to 100 rep sets.

A workout needs to comprise a range of angles and rep ranges i feel to hit the muscle group well enough to spur good growth.


----------



## hsmann87

Clubber Lang said:


> ive always thought that reps between 6-8 were best for massive, but to be honest im thinking maybe 12-15 reps are best now.
> 
> *ive been watching the Dorian Yates video on Youtube training Mark Dugdale at Temple Gym, and from what ive seen and heard Dorian prefers high reps of 12-15 for maximum muscle stimulation, especially for legs.*
> 
> *worth sitting down and watching, its under 'A Week In the Dungeon'*


i have learnt SO much from that video its unreal.

it is in 8 parts on youtube.


----------



## hsmann87

Suitelf11 said:


> Jay cutler does 10~ reps
> 
> All powerlifters are lower in reps.
> 
> Do the maths.


 i dont think its as clear cut as that.

ronnie coleman deadlifted 800lbs for 2 reps only 5.5 weeks out from the mr olympia....what you gotta about that HUH?? lol


----------



## rick84

I was told by quite an educated guy in PT tha it all depend on which muscle fibers u predominantley have as to which rep range u should follow (fast twitch - slow twitch)

Pretty sure their is a test u can do to find out wha kind of routine best suits each individual, although never tried it so can't say if it's accurate.


----------



## Zzz102

rick84 said:


> I was told by quite an educated guy in PT tha it all depend on which muscle fibers u predominantley have as to which rep range u should follow (fast twitch - slow twitch)
> 
> Pretty sure their is a test u can do to find out wha kind of routine best suits each individual, although never tried it so can't say if it's accurate.


 how do you work out wether your predominantley fast or slow twitch?


----------



## rick84

I'll try find the test and post a link, like i said though i can't vouch for it!

If not though u could always go the docs and have them cut u open and take a sample of ur muscle tissue, lol.


----------



## Zzz102

rick84 said:


> I'll try find the test and post a link, like i said though i can't vouch for it!
> 
> *If not though u could always go the docs and have them cut u open and take a sample of ur muscle tissue, lol*.


 sounds like a plan:cool:


----------



## rick84

The test was very similar to this.......

•Determine your one repetition maximum (1RM) on an exercise

•Rest for 15 minutes

•Perform as many repetitions as possible with 80% of your 1RM

Then......

•Less than 7 repetitions - fast twitch (FT) dominant

•7 or 8 repetitions - mixed fibre type

•more than 8 repetitions - slow twitch (ST) dominant


----------



## -Jack-

votes in this ages ago, recently found that 10-12 is the best.


----------



## Suitelf11

hsmann87 said:


> i dont think its as clear cut as that.
> 
> ronnie coleman deadlifted 800lbs for 2 reps only 5.5 weeks out from the mr olympia....what you gotta about that HUH?? lol


Ronnie Coleman wanted to look cool by deadlifting HEAVY WEIGHT. Either way, I outmass Ronnie by far.


----------



## ProteinPitstop

TYSON said:


> For many years i was a beleiver that reps in the range of 6 - 8 heavy was the way to go to build size, after joining uk muscle my thoughts on this changed a little over time and i changed to 6 - 10 reps. Basically as soon as i hit 10 reps i would drop back to 6 reps and add weight and so on. I used this system for the 6 - 8 range as well.
> 
> I do not know which way is better but personally i still think that 6 - 8 reps is better for adding on the muscle, also as long as the weights are raised very slightly you should lift heavier quicker using this system.
> 
> Basically i thought i would put up a poll to see how opinions vary on this.


Definately a personal choice, there's no right and no wrong. If there is PLEASEEEE let me know 

People work in many different ways and you definately have to find your sweet spot or optimal muscle growth. As far as ACSM goes your looking at a range of 6-12, which is a wide range so doesn't narrow anything down.

I've enjoyed 8's a lot, they work well for me. You have to bare in mind diet, mental attidute, rest and choice of excercises too, if i'm trying to stack on some size I will train compounds for the majority. Isolated take up too much time and without the gains of compounds, you recruit way more fibres during compound movements leading to more growth.


----------



## Roy Batty

rick84 said:


> The test was very similar to this.......
> 
> •Determine your one repetition maximum (1RM) on an exercise
> 
> •Rest for 15 minutes
> 
> •Perform as many repetitions as possible with 80% of your 1RM
> 
> Then......
> 
> •Less than 7 repetitions - fast twitch (FT) dominant
> 
> •7 or 8 repetitions - mixed fibre type
> 
> •more than 8 repetitions - slow twitch (ST) dominant


So does this determine your type for the entire body or just the muscle group tested? so your body could have different types dominant from muscle group to muscle group?


----------



## murphy2010

Like alot of people say i think different people respond better to different amounts of reps. I personally aim for about 5 reps


----------



## C.Hill

I 100% guarantee you it's between 1-25.

Trust me.


----------



## big steve

i agree with c.hill, has to be somewhere about there!


----------



## QuadFather94

I do 12-10-8 reps on all exersizes.... Except on german volume training days


----------



## Jack92

:lol:8 to 12 because thats what ronnie coleman says


----------



## Guy G

Ive only ever done 6-8 reps as I am as such a 'novice' and only gone by what other people have said. This rep range seems to have worked for

Me but every magazine I read they seem to recommend 10-12.

But 6-8 is winning


----------



## barsnack

i recnetly changed mine to include heavy and light days, os heavy is 3-6 and light 8-13, although for back and legs which i work out once aweek, i do the compounds heavy and isolation exercises light


----------



## HVYDUTY100

I aim to failure between 6-10 reps for upper body, 8-12 for legs the thing that works for me is just going to failure regardless how many reps you have done really.


----------



## will-uk

Until it hurts....


----------



## biglbs

BSF James said:


> I'm not sure if I believe its as cut and dry as one particular rep range is best for building size.
> 
> There are bodybuilders with tremendous physiques who've always trained with high reps. Just as there are great physiques that have come from doing many sets and also few sets (volume vs HIT).
> 
> Personally I think a variety works best. I believe in doing high rep and low rep workouts either in rotation or in training mesocycles. I think a variety of rep ranges is the only way to maximise gains in both fast and slow twitch fibres.
> 
> For strength, however, from experience I believe 5x5 works best.


Repped buddy,i too do and believe this is true,hit the muscle every way you can.I also find high reps build tendon/insert strength,i rarely get pulls even on 190k benches/120k seated presses,i feel high reps have their place for growth as much as low.


----------



## Rick89

true answer would be a mix of both therefor hitting all the fibres IMO

I love the dense look you achieve from heavy low rep compounds and a few accessory sets of 6-10 resp


----------



## dtlv

I agree with most people, you need to hit a range of reps... whether it's a range in each workout, or if you periodise and do different phases of different reps it doesn't matter so much so long as you get the full range in there somewhere.

I also think though that not all muscles respond the same, with some body parts benefiting most (for hypertrophy) from slightly more or less higher rep work than others.


----------



## musio

I think TUT is equally as important whatever rep range you do.


----------



## El Toro Mr UK98

BSF James said:


> I'm not sure if I believe its as cut and dry as one particular rep range is best for building size.
> 
> There are bodybuilders with tremendous physiques who've always trained with high reps. Just as there are great physiques that have come from doing many sets and also few sets (volume vs HIT).
> 
> Personally I think a variety works best. I believe in doing high rep and low rep workouts either in rotation or in training mesocycles. I think a variety of rep ranges is the only way to maximise gains in both fast and slow twitch fibres.
> 
> For strength, however, from experience I believe 5x5 works best.


I agree with this also, been said my preference for gaining muscle seems to be arround 12-18 reps, supersets, volume training


----------



## Guest

I don't think it's the amount of reps that build size so to speak but rather the quality of the reps, rom, speed etc.

I could bang out 10 reps for example nice and heavy or I can drop some weight off do 10 reps nice and controlled, good negative and feel more benefit. Same number of reps but better quality and I respond better. Number of reps means nothing if they are sh!t quality.

Don't count the reps make the reps count then as your body adapts and gets used to it change again.


----------



## Hmob

5-8 reps are what most people can lift with decent form and a heavy enough weight (80% roughly). So you get a good balance of muscular tension (heavy weight) and fatigue (medium reps).


----------



## Hmob

dtlv said:


> I also think though that not all muscles respond the same, with some body parts benefiting most (for hypertrophy) from slightly more or less higher rep work than others.


I think this is the smartest thing iv ever read on an exercise forum. Your bang on, although the training effects of weight lifting can exert similar physiological results, no two muscles respond to a stimulus in quite the same way.

What really bends my noodle is then factoring in that not all muscles recover the same o_0


----------



## rsd147

6-8 upper body and 10-12 Reps for legs

4-5 Sets


----------



## Guest

I think it depends on the person.

Say if I work my way up to a 120kg bench for 10, ill bang 140kg out for only 3 afterwards and that makes my chest scream more than another set of 7/8 would at 120 again.


----------



## Rick89

a mix is by far the best


----------



## 223ackley

Well for the last few months i have been training heavy (at least it is for me) for a month rep range 6-8 then a month of lighter 12-20 rep range i like training both meathods but i see people using heavy weights and throwing them up i personaly prefere to do them strict weather training light or heavy even if this means reducing my rep range now i am sure if i traind faster i could do more reps so do you think slow and strict or faster where i think my form would reduce


----------



## Thunderstruck

For me personally i find 12-15 reps focussing on TUT makes much better gains than heavier weight and lower reps, legs especially like highers reps for me, usually 15 - 20 reps, still as heavy as possible but ensuring its all controlled with full contraction at top of each rep..


----------



## Kirky79

What is TUT? Sorry if it's a dumb question.


----------



## simonthepieman

never train 5.5 reps. you gain no strength or muscle and your chicken, brown rice and broccoli will turn to fat


----------



## Tassotti

3 reps 90% 1RM


----------



## DazUKM

Kirky79 said:


> What is TUT? Sorry if it's a dumb question.


time under tension


----------



## huarache

Just do f loads till you can't do anymore


----------



## AJS

Aprox:

10 Reps

8 Reps

8 Reps

6 Reps


----------



## Iluv2b_Free

wow a dead tie for 6-8 / 6-10


----------



## arthuroarti

Muscle does not know reps. It knows stress, fatigue and tension applied to it.


----------



## chelios

I find that if I go in, 10 reps, 10 reps, 6-8 reps, 10 reps back to start weight works best for me.


----------



## Poke

5 sets of 3-5 reps for big muscle groups like back, legs, chest on the big compount movements.

Followed by 3 sets of 8-10 on other isolation exercises.

3 sets of 8 on shoulders via overhead pressing movements

4 sets of 10-12 on smaller shoulder muscles like rear and outer delts

3 sets of 8-10 on biceps and 4 sets of 10-12 on triceps.

All muscles are different and all people are different.. IMO you cant just pick a number and do all your workouts on all your different muscles with them same reps as they are different muscles and need different stimulation.

works for me fer gaining compact size and strength (not hollow blown up muscles, but smaller, tighter muscles with the same actual muscle mass that are stronger, but lack weight training endurance)


----------



## Laurieloz

Poke said:


> 5 sets of 3-5 reps for big muscle groups like back, legs, chest on the big compount movements.
> 
> Followed by 3 sets of 8-10 on other isolation exercises.
> 
> 3 sets of 8 on shoulders via overhead pressing movements
> 
> 4 sets of 10-12 on smaller shoulder muscles like rear and outer delts
> 
> 3 sets of 8-10 on biceps and 4 sets of 10-12 on triceps.
> 
> All muscles are different and all people are different.. IMO you cant just pick a number and do all your workouts on all your different muscles with them same reps as they are different muscles and need different stimulation.
> 
> works for me fer gaining compact size and strength (not hollow blown up muscles, but smaller, tighter muscles with the same actual muscle mass that are stronger, but lack weight training endurance)


I have always started a session doing a one-off set of about 25-40 reps with a light weight to get my energy flowing and muscle blood circulating! Depending on the exercise, I will then do 2-3 sets of about 12 reps on a moderate weight. My next 1-2 sets will be decreased to about 10 reps, but I will add weight. I have always trained like this - from my bodybuilding years a long time ago, right to today. It works very well for me. Please see my new Journal for good examples of this training method if you wish. I'm just getting used to Tapatalk and experimenting posting photos, so this new pic is just to test my posting expertees...not! Cheers guys


----------



## Heath

Bumping an old thread but a method I like is to turn my 5rm into 12rm for work set over however long it takes, add weight, rinse and repeat.

Not sure how this fits into the different ideas in here


----------



## simonthepieman

MutantX said:


> Bumping an old thread but a method I like is to turn my 5rm into 12rm for work set over however long it takes, add weight, rinse and repeat.
> 
> Not sure how this fits into the different ideas in here


I can't see that being anything else other than productive


----------



## Heath

simonthepieman said:


> I can't see that being anything else other than productive


In that case I will need to think of a way to over complicate it


----------



## Therealbigbear

Reps mean nothing it's the time the muscle is under tension so 4 reps done in 2/2 will equal 8 in 1/1 so rep speed must be considered


----------



## essexboy

When I had my home gym we didnt count reps at all on leg workouts.It was one set (bi laterally) on my Nautilus Duo Squat.Each rep was super smooth and super slow,approx 10 seconds.We aimed for 120 seconds per leg working till failure.When we managed to increase by 10 seconds, we added weight.Having a partner, who can time the set,is crucial.They also can add encouragement when it gets tough, and make sure you dont cheat.

Over a 6 month period,My partner increased his strength by 90% Me was 75% (Whilst on 1800 cals a day)

Not my idea.Stolen from Nautilus.Time under tension is the key.

We also tried this with upper body movements with far less sucess.Perhaps varying the time may have garnered better results.


----------



## ironman1985bcn

6 to 30... Individual dependant. NO ONE KNOWS.

Usually it's from 8 to 10 they say...


----------



## Carbon-12

ironman1985bcn said:


> 6 to 30... Individual dependant. NO ONE KNOWS.
> 
> Usually it's from 8 to 10 they say...


----------



## Dazarms

BSF James said:


> I'm not sure if I believe its as cut and dry as one particular rep range is best for building size.
> 
> There are bodybuilders with tremendous physiques who've always trained with high reps. Just as there are great physiques that have come from doing many sets and also few sets (volume vs HIT).
> 
> Personally I think a variety works best. I believe in doing high rep and low rep workouts either in rotation or in training mesocycles. *I think a variety of rep ranges is the only way to maximise gains in both fast and slow twitch fibres.*
> 
> For strength, however, from experience I believe 5x5 works best.


Totaly agree with this statement

I follow Y3T training style and have always gained from it

week 1 is heavy compounds 5-8 rep range no fancy isolation movements here. just solid heavy lifting on the basics like Bench, Deadlift, Bent over row/Tbar row, Squat

Week 2 is still heavy but up the reps to 8-10 with one isolation throwing in the mix and start to use drop sets at end

Week 3 is now 8-12 resp with all out Drops sets, Rest pause, Negatives, pre exhaust

Week 4 is mix weeks 3 and 2 really focusing on the contraction and squeeze

Then its back to week 1

This way Im hitting all different angles during month and Also not over training my body by just lifting heavy heavy compounds all time or by just doing high reps all time

getting the best everything

And when needed training past failure always as down really break down the muscle which is what's needed for growth

a pump alone is not breaking down ur muscle so u can go away and feed it and build it more

u need break that area down by training past failure - negatives are probs my favourite exercise for this method


----------



## infernal0988

for size & volume it all depends on the muscle your working my legs respond better to 5x5s & heavier squats just like my back with deadlifts , chest responds more to more reps & lowering the reps the heavier i go. Smaller muscle groups is good to have moderate to light weight with 10-20 reps like arms biceps& triceps, Shoulders are a place in the middle i can go hight there my shoulders can take alot of weight, so i go heavy with as many reps i can.


----------



## Big Man 123

Carbon-12 said:


>


*LMFAO !!!*


----------



## Carbon-12

Big Man 123 said:


> *LMFAO !!!*


7 months bump loool


----------



## nWo

I personally get best results from 8-12 or 10-14 for legs, but everyone responds differently.


----------



## Captain lats

On the upper body i think 8 will do but when i train legs i try to get 10+


----------



## big vin

to get bigger i do more reps in the kitchen with my food more reps spoon to mouth , eat more to get bigger


----------



## jamiew691

8-10 for me, I think its down to what your body most agrees with!


----------



## funkdocta

you need high rep low weight exercises and low rep heavy weight exercises to maximise growth. Its all about the pump!


----------



## Fortunatus

6 reps x 4 sets works best for me but i believe everyone is different


----------



## night06

you ppl care way too much about numbers, i think the form is way more important.I can say iam a big fan of perfect form high volume that works best for me. Well really it depends on the Muscle Group and exercise, i switch it up all the time. Doenst mean im weak, still benching 150kg, i do here and there some low rep sets aswell


----------



## jayDP

10-12 for me


----------



## synthasize

Atm I'm doing 5x5 heavy on one big exercise per session followed by assistance exercises.

So bench press on chest day, squats for legs, deadlifts for back and OHP for shoulders/traps. So back/tris looks like:

Deads 5x5

BB rows 12,10,fail

Machine lat row 12,10,fail

Low cable row 12,10,fail

Dips fail,fail,fail

Tri press down 12,10,fail


----------



## AlexB18

Personally my rep range varies with each session on each bodypart, one lift il do a mixture of high reps and low reps, the other 3 lifts on any of my training days will go 8 reps, 12 reps and 15 reps, this has been working nicely for me so far and I like the fact that im mixing it up and not just sticking with the 1 set rep range


----------



## FelonE1

However many I want to do.


----------



## Sim0x

Found this, hope it helps:

View attachment 164199


----------



## Fletch68

8-10 for me but switch things up.


----------



## Mogadishu

6-8 bulk/cycle 10-15 cut/natty. Always good form.


----------



## Jordan08

Am i the only one who thinks size has nothing to do with rep ranges?. :confused1:


----------



## simonthepieman

Jatin Bhatia said:


> Am i the only one who thinks size has nothing to do with rep ranges?. :confused1:


Whilst not quite nothing. The rep number is not significant compared to how its applied


----------



## Big ape

Muscle Stimulation > Progressive Overload = size


----------



## JohhnyC

for me I never really found any difference (well, .... within reason!)

Biggest difference is splitting routines. Concentrate on one body part, blast it with drop sets./or super sets. When you feel it almost numb you know you have a good work out.

Not a great believer in sitting round the gym all day like some i see there. In, blast it, and rest just so you get your breath back (30-60s) recover a little and next set


----------



## simonthepieman

Changing things makes the biggest impact. All routines and schemas have diminish returns.

If you always trained low reps you'd benefit on higher reps. If you always train high reps you'll benefit from lower.

Same with rest times


----------



## Abc987

simonthepieman said:


> Changing things makes the biggest impact. All routines and schemas have diminish returns.
> 
> If you always trained low reps you'd benefit on higher reps. If you always train high reps you'll benefit from lower.
> 
> Same with rest times


Before I joined ukm I always believe low reps for building muscles and high reps for toning. What a load of bvllocks lol.

I chamge mine up quite often now and results are coming

never go below 5 reps anymore


----------



## simonthepieman

Abc987 said:


> Before I joined ukm I always believe low reps for building muscles and high reps for toning. What a load of bvllocks lol.
> 
> I chamge mine up quite often now and results are coming
> 
> never go below 5 reps anymore


Sub 5 reps can be good for plataux busting.

One thing I've learnt since going to the dqrkside. Quality of reps are more important than reps or volume.

As a natty. Progressive overload will get you there.

On gear. Contraction, tension and progression combined are magic


----------



## barksie

hi

found this,


----------



## EpicSquats

Lift heavier, get bigger, it's that simple.


----------



## barksie

BSF James said:


> I'm not sure if I believe its as cut and dry as one particular rep range is best for building size.
> 
> There are bodybuilders with tremendous physiques who've always trained with high reps. Just as there are great physiques that have come from doing many sets and also few sets (volume vs HIT).
> 
> Personally I think a variety works best. I believe in doing high rep and low rep workouts either in rotation or in training mesocycles. I think a variety of rep ranges is the only way to maximise gains in both fast and slow twitch fibres.
> 
> For strength, however, from experience I believe 5x5 works best.


im newbie and just getting started ( 7 months ) but this works for me at moment


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## FuqOutDaWhey

All of them


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## dannythinx

barksie said:


> im newbie and just getting started ( 7 months ) but this works for me at moment


Everything will work for you seven months in


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## dannythinx

Changing exercises regularly works better at forcing your body to adapt then rep ranges IMO


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## Fletch68

Big ape said:


> Muscle Stimulation > Progressive Overload = size


 That's so simple it's well......simple really!!!!!


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