# Splits vs Total bodies for Natty's



## Delboy GLA

I've obviously done both like everyone else has im sure.

Just wanted to discuss the merits of both training systems for nattys?

I mean guys like Reeves, Park etc all did the 3 day a week total body routine and in those days it was all supposed to be natural.

Today life after Arnold says the split is the daddy of them all in terms of training you only need to hit it hard once a week etc

But from experience I wondered how you guys feel you progress working with these training methods?

I personally think I make my best gains on total body routines, tho I do miss a bit of split training and every couple of weeks I love murdering certain muscle groups for a crazy session.

I think the benefits of total routines for natty's is your hitting all the big lifts 3x a week & recovery is built in. For gaining quality lean mass this seems like the simplest and most direct approach, your not dicking about with fancy movements. Just the hardcore muscle builders.

I'd like to hear your own take on your current training, wether it's a split or a total body style and why you think it's working for you.

cheers


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## musio

Whatever the best way is, it isn't the best way forever.

It's good to mix and match to stimulate the body. When I have time off, I might go for splits but in time bound weeks ill go for splits. Saying that, even in splits I'd always incorporate one of the three big lifts.


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## Robbie789

It goes without saying that everybody is different and what works for some doesn't work for others, if you don't enjoy your workout you're not going to stick to it for long.

If you're consistent and train hard then I don't think it makes that much difference to what kind of routine you follow, even the best training programme can't put on more than a couple pounds of muscle than an average programme over a year.

Currently, I'm doing stronglifts then going back to a 4 day split at the end


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## MrLong

I've always did a split really, but always still focused on the deadlift, squat and bench as the base of my routine. Although I have gained well, the main reason I have stuck with a 4/5 day split is because I enjoy it, rather than is it the most effective way of training for me.

I have recently decided to try out the 'Power Hypertrophy adaptive training' by Layne Norton, and will see how I get on with that.

Looks a good but demanding routine, training 5 days a week and hitting everything twice, also speed work is in there aswell. Will see how I get on.


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## Robbie789

MrLong said:


> I've always did a split really, but always still focused on the deadlift, squat and bench as the base of my routine. Although I have gained well, the main reason I have stuck with a 4/5 day split is because I enjoy it, rather than is it the most effective way of training for me.
> 
> I have recently decided to try out the 'Power Hypertrophy adaptive training' by Layne Norton, and will see how I get on with that.
> 
> Looks a good but demanding routine, training 5 days a week and hitting everything twice, also speed work is in there aswell. Will see how I get on.


PHAT training looks good and makes sense, heavy days, rest, lighter days, I'd like to try itm but I would never be able to get off my ar$e at the weekends to train lol


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## MrLong

robdobbie said:


> PHAT training looks good and makes sense, heavy days, rest, lighter days, I'd like to try itm but I would never be able to get off my ar$e at the weekends to train lol


Yeah, this is only my first week doing it, and from training a split routine for over a year, to then doing PHAT was harder than I thought, in a good way though. I am enjoying it.

I have put in an extra rest day though.

And also i havent incorporated deadlifts into the routine, only stiff leg deadlifts as the routine suggests, which is a shame as it one of my best lifts. I just dont know where I would put it as squatting and deadlifting on the same day would be brutal. Think I will do them on the lower body hypertrophy day next week.


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## L11

I do a 5 day split.. People on here would say it's over-kill, concentrate on bench press deadlift etc etc etc But just because I do a 5 day split it doesnt mean that i dont deadlift or bench press!

I dont personally believe mixing it up is entirely neccessary either, I've been doing the same routine for years and I haven't plateu'd yet.


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## simonthepieman

The thing that drives me mad is that people think its one or the other.

A full body routine is TYPICALLY better that a body part split for the natty.

But there is a while spectrum of things in between.

A 4 day upper lower is one of most effective hypertrophy routines for a natty. Something so few do


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## exvigourbeast

I do a 3 way split. I did a full body routine for the first 3 weeks of being back in training that basically contained only bench, squat and bent rows as the basis, but had to go with split after that. Its a better man than me who can put an appropriate amount of effort into his fifth compound exercise of the session. I'd be on my ar*e


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## harryalmighty

simonthepieman said:


> The thing that drives me mad is that people think its one or the other.
> 
> A full body routine is TYPICALLY better that a body part split for the natty.
> 
> But there is a while spectrum of things in between.
> 
> A 4 day upper lower is one of most effective hypertrophy routines for a natty. Something so few do


this, my gains over the last 2 months have been better - strength/hypertrophy- compared to when i was doing a 5 day split. with natty training more rest and frequency of body parts hit is important.


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## Robbie789

simonthepieman said:


> The thing that drives me mad is that people think its one or the other.
> 
> A full body routine is TYPICALLY better that a body part split for the natty.
> 
> But there is a while spectrum of things in between.
> 
> A 4 day upper lower is one of most effective hypertrophy routines for a natty. Something so few do


What routine would you reccomend? I'm going to give a 4 day upper/lower a go in about 8 weeks time, after 6 weeks of a 4 day regular spilt, then compare the two


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## kev1

i do a 6 day split but i respond to it well, why not a 4/5 day split? see what works


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## Fatstuff

Im just worked out a routine for myself which involves 4 workouts

quad dominant/push (strength 3x5)

Ham dominant/pull (strength 3x5)

Quad dominant/push (hypertrophy 3x8-12)

Ham dominant/pull (hypertrophy 3x8-12)

Going to do this for 6 months and see how i gain from it. The strength workouts are the basic big lifts heavy, the other workouts are still compounds just with a bit more fluff.


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## simonthepieman

robdobbie said:


> What routine would you reccomend? I'm going to give a 4 day upper/lower a go in about 8 weeks time, after 6 weeks of a 4 day regular spilt, then compare the two


When I get to my PC I will dig out one I wrote on here previously. It's a great routine for long progress. Or PM me and I'll set you up personally and customise it.

The last person I started coaching gained 10lbs in 11 weeks and kept his BF levels the same and PRed in all his lifts. So that's offer not to be sniffed at


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## james2011

youve got enjoy the way you train to make the best progress as we all know consistency is key i generally switch every 4 weeks between doing the muscle twice/every 5 days then once a week in various splits my favourite is probably chest+back, Shoulder+arms, Legs


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## simonthepieman

For anyone who is interested, here is my Upper/Lower templete that will give great results to the natty trainer.

Upper1

Bench 3 x 5

Row 3 x 5

Dips 4 x 10

Pull ups BW 4 x F

optional bi's & Side raises

Lower

Squat 3 x 5

SLDLs 4 x 10

Lunges 2 x 8 el

optional calves

Upper 2

Decline bench 3 x 5

t-rows 3 x 5

OHP 4 x 10

Chins 4 x 10

optional - triceps & facepulls

lower 2

Deadlifts 3 x 5

front squats 4 x 10

GHR or pull throughs or hamstring curls 2 x 8

optional - calves


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## dtlv

simonthepieman said:


> For anyone who is interested, here is my Upper/Lower templete that will give great results to the natty trainer.
> 
> Upper1
> 
> Bench 3 x 5
> 
> Row 3 x 5
> 
> Dips 4 x 10
> 
> Pull ups BW 4 x F
> 
> optional bi's & Side raises
> 
> Lower
> 
> Squat 3 x 5
> 
> SLDLs 4 x 10
> 
> Lunges 2 x 8 el
> 
> optional calves
> 
> Upper 2
> 
> Decline bench 3 x 5
> 
> t-rows 3 x 5
> 
> OHP 4 x 10
> 
> Chins 4 x 10
> 
> optional - triceps & facepulls
> 
> lower 2
> 
> Deadlifts 3 x 5
> 
> front squats 4 x 10
> 
> GHR or pull throughs or hamstring curls 2 x 8
> 
> optional - calves


This is almost identical to one of my fav splits, is a very good routine for a natty (or anyone) IMO.


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## Guest

simonthepieman said:


> For anyone who is interested, here is my Upper/Lower templete that will give great results to the natty trainer.
> 
> Upper1
> 
> Bench 3 x 5
> 
> Row 3 x 5
> 
> Dips 4 x 10
> 
> Pull ups BW 4 x F
> 
> optional bi's & Side raises
> 
> Lower
> 
> Squat 3 x 5
> 
> SLDLs 4 x 10
> 
> Lunges 2 x 8 el
> 
> optional calves
> 
> Upper 2
> 
> Decline bench 3 x 5
> 
> t-rows 3 x 5
> 
> OHP 4 x 10
> 
> Chins 4 x 10
> 
> optional - triceps & facepulls
> 
> lower 2
> 
> Deadlifts 3 x 5
> 
> front squats 4 x 10
> 
> GHR or pull throughs or hamstring curls 2 x 8
> 
> optional - calves


Although I do like the look of this. I though the lower rep ranges (5) were mainly for strength. Whilst 8-12 being the optimal for hypertrophy? Could you do say bench 4x8-12 instead of the 3x5?

I might try this after christmas though


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## simonthepieman

I personally think you get more out of it with a power orientated opening lift and the hyper trophy assistance after. Both size and strength


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## Robbie789

Jd123 said:


> Although I do like the look of this. I though the lower rep ranges (5) were mainly for strength. Whilst 8-12 being the optimal for hypertrophy? Could you do say bench 4x8-12 instead of the 3x5?
> 
> I might try this after christmas though


The stronger you are the more you can lift when doing hypertrophy work..


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## JoePro

I'm currently doing a full body that I made myself based off of influences from Reg Park, Anthony Ditillo (mass monster), Rippetoe and Bill Starr. I've wrote it in my log if you wanted to see it, it's pretty good in my opinion. Anyway on the subject, I personally think the 3x full body or 4x upper/lower program is much more superior than splits for natty's.

My reasons for why I think this is: Frequency. Frequency is a big battle against volume work in my opinion. If you bench, incline and dips one day is it better than heavy benching or benching heavy once and then benching lighter with slightly more volume the next? To me it would make more sense to take that approach as the muscle will be getting hit 2x a week, instead of the usual on a split once.

Don't know if you guys agree with that though.

And as a template, Simon's is very good. I like the Wendler outlook too when I plan an upper/lower routine. Bench with lat assistance and some shoulder/tricep work, Deadlift with lower back, core and some quad/hams work, Overhead press with some chest, lat and tricep assistance and squat day with some lower back, core and quad/hams assistance.


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## hometrainer

i have done both i started with a three day split but as i got bigger i moved to one body part a sesion which works for me.


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## simonthepieman

hometrainer said:


> i have done both i started with a three day split but as i got bigger i moved to one body part a sesion which works for me.


Maybe it's your grammar confusing me, but what you are saying is that you was doing something that worked and changed it because of that?


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## simonthepieman

robdobbie said:


> The stronger you are the more you can lift when doing hypertrophy work..


Exactly. Who do you think is the bigger guy. The guy who benches 100kg and squats 150 for sets of 5 or the guy who benches 60 and squats 100 for sets of 10?

If you concentrate on getting your 5rm up every week then your 10rm will move quicker as a result.


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## Fatstuff

simonthepieman said:


> Exactly. Who do you think is the bigger guy. The guy who benches 100kg and squats 150 for sets of 5 or the guy who benches 60 and squats 100 for sets of 10?
> 
> If you concentrate on getting your 5rm up every week then your 10rm will move quicker as a result.


The bigger guy will be the one with the better genetics lol


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## simonthepieman

You facetious tit 

You know what I meant


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## justin case

i have never ever made any progress in strength or muscular development training one body part one day a week...it's just maintaining what you have....the very best results i have ever made in week on week strength gains and muscle gains are with a full body pyramid routine...but that's just me.


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## simonthepieman

klach79 said:


> The guy who trains for Hypertrophy


What causes hypertrophy?


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## Natty.Solider

5 day split here


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## 36-26

I've gained well both ways. HST worked well for me which is a full body. 3, 4 and 5 day splits have also worked for me. I've never liked the look of upper lower splits even though I'm sure they work well, I just wouldn't enjoy it. IMO when doing full bodies the volume has to be accounted for so less of a stimulus is created but it is created 3 times a week and when doing a split you can hammer the muscle creating a big stimulus once a week. Therefore I feel and have seen with myself that the difference is actually very minimal and it comes down to which way you prefer training.


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## HJL

simonthepieman said:


> For anyone who is interested, here is my Upper/Lower templete that will give great results to the natty trainer.
> 
> Upper1
> 
> Bench 3 x 5
> 
> Row 3 x 5
> 
> Dips 4 x 10
> 
> Pull ups BW 4 x F
> 
> optional bi's & Side raises
> 
> Lower
> 
> Squat 3 x 5
> 
> SLDLs 4 x 10
> 
> Lunges 2 x 8 el
> 
> optional calves
> 
> Upper 2
> 
> Decline bench 3 x 5
> 
> t-rows 3 x 5
> 
> OHP 4 x 10
> 
> Chins 4 x 10
> 
> optional - triceps & facepulls
> 
> lower 2
> 
> Deadlifts 3 x 5
> 
> front squats 4 x 10
> 
> GHR or pull throughs or hamstring curls 2 x 8
> 
> optional - calves


looks interesting, ive always done chest bi, back tri, shoulders legs. which of the exersizes do you ramp up each week or each workout in a 5x5 style? thanks


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## Monkey skeleton

simonthepieman said:


> What causes hypertrophy?


Reading Men's Fitness!


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## simonthepieman

HJL said:


> looks interesting, ive always done chest bi, back tri, shoulders legs. which of the exersizes do you ramp up each week or each workout in a 5x5 style? thanks


Focus on moving the primary/first exercise up in weight and then do what feels right with the assistance.

I would heavily recommend not training to failure where possible


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## Monkey skeleton

simonthepieman said:


> I would heavily recommend not training to failure where possible


How close to failure do you recommend? Should it be your last rep is a body convulsing 15 second grind, but you complete it, or would you stop a rep short of that?


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## simonthepieman

1 or 2 reps before that. It's alright to have occasional war with weight. But better to just keep adding weight to the bar each week and keep your CNS fresh


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## Monkey skeleton

simonthepieman said:


> 1 or 2 reps before that. It's alright to have occasional war with weight. But better to just keep adding weight to the bar each week and keep your CNS fresh


I'll try and give that a go, but I just feel lazy if I'm not pushing it. Could explain my appalling lack of gains over the last 4-5 years though!


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## Wardy211436114751

I really like the look of the 4 day upper/lower and think if I was to start training for hypertrophy I would probably do something along those lines. A good balanced routine for the natty IMO.


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## simonthepieman

Monkey skeleton said:


> I'll try and give that a go, but I just feel lazy if I'm not pushing it. Could explain my appalling lack of gains over the last 4-5 years though!


Trust me. You won't feel lazy when you are putting up PB weights in a few months a lifting weight you previously feared.

The last guy I took under my wing gained 10lb in 12 weeks and smashed all his previous lifting bests and is still going up every week.


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## empzb

simonthepieman said:


> Trust me. You won't feel lazy when you are putting up PB weights in a few months a lifting weight you previously feared.
> 
> The last guy I took under my wing gained 10lb in 12 weeks and smashed all his previous lifting bests and is still going up every week.


Can also vouch for this routine or variations of it. With the right diet I've put on a couple kgs in 4 weeks.


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## simonthepieman

I'm going to start charging for advice soon


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## nlr

@simonthepieman @dtlv do you ever need to change your routine or will the same thing work for years?


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## simonthepieman

You can get on a long time with subtle changes. ie when you stall an exercise drop the weight and swap the exercise and build up again. When that stalls drop the weight, go back to the original exercise with a different rep scheme etc

Ie 3x5 bench press untill stall then swap for 3x8 db press untill stall then swap for 4x8 bench until stall then swap for 3x 5 db press until stall and back to the start etc


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## faultline

simonthepieman said:


> The last guy I took under my wing gained 10lb in 12 weeks and smashed all his previous lifting bests and is still going up every week.


Was this just from the training or did u do him a diet plan as well?

How would you change that routine if you only had 3 days to train? Upper, lower, full body?


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## Muscle Supermkt

Another vote here for Upper/Lower/Upper/Lower!


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## Wardy33

robdobbie said:


> What routine would you reccomend? I'm going to give a 4 day upper/lower a go in about 8 weeks time, after 6 weeks of a 4 day regular spilt, then compare the two


Started a 4 day split..

Westside Barbell template!

Day 1-

Heavy Bench 4 Sets

Flyes 3 sets 35%

Dips (banana) 3 sets x 10 (strict)

Triceps (Pull downs, French Ext)3 sets each

Mili Press (sitting up and 75%) 2 sets each

Shrugs Barbell 3 sets

Uprights 3 sets

Pull Ups 4 Sets

Free Weight Lat Pull Down Heavy (up to 80kg Each arm) 4 sets

Free Weight Seated Rows Heavy (up to 75kg Each arm) 4 sets

Day 2 -

Deads/Squats

Lower Back

Legs

Abs

Day 3 -

Repeat day 1 but go Lighter on Chest

Day 4 -

Repeat but do Dead or Squat, which ever you didnt do on Day 2..

Cardio on everyday, 35 mins fasted..

Working like a dream.. Normally do day 2 before Day 1 so i dont pull any muscles

Feel stronger, longer pumps throughout the week and on upper day you look nice a BIG in the gym because everything is buldging like CRAZYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY and it pushes me more..


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## IGotTekkers

4 day split is the only way for me. tried doing chest and shoulders on the same split and it was too much. I couldn't imagine doing a full weeks workout in 1 workout. it would kill me.


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## simonthepieman

faultline said:


> Was this just from the training or did u do him a diet plan as well?
> 
> How would you change that routine if you only had 3 days to train? Upper, lower, full body?


yeah. Upper (press) lower (squat) full body (deadlift) + assistance. There are a ton of ways you can set it up.

the alternative is full body Push + pull + legs. i'll write up some templates when i get the chance


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## faultline

So would something like this be ok:

Upper:

Bench 5x5

Straightbar row 4x6

Dips 3x8

Arnold press 3x8

Cgbp 3x8

Ez curl 3x8

Lower:

Squats 5x5

Sldl 3x10

Calf raises 3x20

Full:

Dips 5x5

Bb row 4x6

Squats 3x10

Deads 3x8

shrugs 3x8

skulls 3x8

So always starting with heavy lower reps finishing with lighter higher reps

I'm thinking of cutting in the new year and might give something like this a go


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## simonthepieman

faultline said:


> So would something like this be ok:
> 
> Upper:
> 
> Bench 5x5
> 
> Straightbar row 4x6
> 
> Dips 3x8
> 
> Arnold press 3x8
> 
> Cgbp 3x8
> 
> Ez curl 3x8
> 
> Lower:
> 
> Squats 5x5
> 
> Sldl 3x10
> 
> Calf raises 3x20
> 
> Full:
> 
> Dips 5x5
> 
> Bb row 4x6
> 
> Squats 3x10
> 
> Deads 3x8
> 
> shrugs 3x8
> 
> skulls 3x8
> 
> So always starting with heavy lower reps finishing with lighter higher reps
> 
> I'm thinking of cutting in the new year and might give something like this a go


Looks solid. The only hong I would do differently is do the order L U FBso you have more rest between squats.

Also don't train to failure, especially cutting


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## simonthepieman

personally i would do 3 x 5 if cutting. you would have more chance on a slight increase in strength that way.

However depending on your work capacity and experience 5 x 5 should be fine


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## faultline

So training this way is frequency over volume? So maybe 3x5 is better, what about the other stuff, volume ok on them?

What's your thoughts on using IIFYM when cutting?


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## simonthepieman

IIFYM is more relevant cutting than bulking as your insulin response is pretty irrelevant when in a deficit (hunger control aside). I dropped from 16 to 11% BF in 2 months using a nice IIFYM Set up that allowed me to drink every weekend and have a cheat day on Saturday eating 4k calories. I'll share it when I get the chance.

For a natty trainer. And especially cutting. Frequency will trump or equal volume in most cases unless you are genetically very lucky.

Until you are advanced, your goal should be to stimulate growth and adaption rather than trying to "destroy" or "hammer" the muscles.

Obviously on gear certain rules change


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## faultline

I've never touched AAS and have been training 8 months so it looks like that applies to me.

I'll be interested to read your IIFYM diet, cheers


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## Matt 1

i do split training

and currently doing DC

its going rather well


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## Matt 1

im favouring HIT training over volume currently.. esp for size and strength.. hard to get used to when you only train 3 times a week or less but results are GOOD


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## simonthepieman

Matt 1 said:


> i do split training
> 
> and currently doing DC
> 
> its going rather well


What are your lift stats?

I always got the impression DC was for quite advance trainers and people on AAS


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## Vastus Med'

simonthepieman said:


> What are your lift stats?
> 
> I always got the impression DC was for quite advance trainers and people on AAS


alright Si....long time no see....keeping busy i see


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## Slimjim83

I believe that for natty's it's best to aim for frequency and consistent increases in strength as hypertrophy is a long winded process for anyone, especially naturals.... If you are consistently getting stronger in your main bread and butter exercises and not eating like an metrosexual you should get bigger. The iron game has not changed for years and it never will. The principles will never change. You must be striving for more reps and or more weight every workout. However you do it is up to you and how your body responds to frequency. I'm still astounded at the people who don't keep logbooks I've got some dated to 2004 squatting 60kg lol.


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## Matt 1

simonthepieman said:


> What are your lift stats?
> 
> I always got the impression DC was for quite advance trainers and people on AAS


I think the only routines for AAS users are very high volume workouts.. twice a day type stuff, as a natty I think youd wouldnt see many postives from it!

Im quite advanced Id like to think, started gyming in year 9.. so what I would have been 14/15? Im now 21 

Lifts are

bench press 110kg barbell.. 50kg dumbells 3sets of 4

squats: did 3sets of 4 on 180 however 1. smith machine and 2. form was almost paralell so not really impressive lol

dead lift: most ive done is 140 for 2 last winter

Body weight for all those was 68kg.. always been very slight for my size (probably missing my brain or something haha) but I look bigger beause I have a tiny torso so its miss leading!

DC is great I have to say! Im really enjoying it and ive increased weight by 10-12kg in 7weeks on most lifts

I highly recommend it.

Another programme I loved (and used for lean bulking last year) was Layne Nortons PHAT training... again.. saw excellent results from that!

You can find the programme on simplyshredded 

Does that help?


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## Matt 1

Slimjim83 said:


> I believe that for natty's it's best to aim for frequency and consistent increases in strength as hypertrophy is a long winded process for anyone, especially naturals.... If you are consistently getting stronger in your main bread and butter exercises and not eating like an metrosexual you should get bigger. The iron game has not changed for years and it never will. The principles will never change. *You must be striving for more reps and or more weight every workout.* However you do it is up to you and how your body responds to frequency.* I'm still astounded at the people who don't keep logbooks I've got some dated to 2004 squatting 60kg lol*.


both great statements.

You MUST beat last times workout in some way or another, be it reps or weight. And I agree a log book is essential. Bodybuilding is really a mathmatical equation. Very simple actually.

You train to damage the fibres. The body over compensates and builds the fibres back bigger/stronger.. if you want this process to happen again, you must respond by increasing the damage from last time.. ie.. more weight or reps.. its that simple. Then for diet, all you need is to make sure you have enough fuel a) to perform at your best B) enough fuel for repair

done!


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## ed220

Matt 1 said:


> both great statements.
> 
> You MUST beat last times workout in some way or another, be it reps or weight. And I agree a log book is essential. Bodybuilding is really a mathmatical equation. Very simple actually.
> 
> You train to damage the fibres. The body over compensates and builds the fibres back bigger/stronger.. if you want this process to happen again, you must respond by increasing the damage from last time.. ie.. more weight or reps.. its that simple. Then for diet, all you need is to make sure you have enough fuel a) to perform at your best B) enough fuel for repair
> 
> done!


Totally agree. I've always kept a log book as well, and I try and beat everything I did the last time, even while cutting which I am doing now.

I think thats one of the reasons why people are not making any progress. They just switch routines and exercises far too often and dont alow themselves to gradually get stronger on their main lifts.


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## Matt 1

ed220 said:


> Totally agree. I've always kept a log book as well, and I try and beat everything I did the last time, even while cutting which I am doing now.
> 
> I think thats one of the reasons why people are not making any progress. *They just switch routines and exercises far too often* and dont alow themselves to gradually get stronger on their main lifts.


another great point man

although i believe changing routine is essential in order to shock the body up, changing after 2 weeks isn't long enough in order to see real progress and gains

I think a minimum of 6-8 weeks.. max of 12, before changing routine is ideal

dont have any research to back that up, just whats worked for me!


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## DazUKM

for me its split, so i can go to the gym more, which i enjoy. (recovery days are boring..)

but if im going to be busy i still like full body, its nice to see entire body pumped at same time rather than just parts ;p


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## aad123

Following a recent recomp where I did a 4 day split. Heavy push - heavy pull - rest - light push - light pull - rest - rest. This worked great for me but as I start to bulk I am now switching to a 3 day full body workout.

Workout A - squat, bent row, clean & press.

Workout B - deadlift, dips & chins.

I will simply alternate between the 2 workouts. Im not sure how it will go but Im going to give it my all. I think as said that you need to change thing around and try new things as even the perfect routine will become stale after a while.


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## ed220

Matt 1 said:


> another great point man
> 
> although i believe changing routine is essential in order to shock the body up, changing after 2 weeks isn't long enough in order to see real progress and gains
> 
> I think a minimum of 6-8 weeks.. max of 12, before changing routine is ideal
> 
> dont have any research to back that up, just whats worked for me!


Thats roughly what I do. Its just I keep going with a routine untill I stop gaining which has been as long as 6 months. Now I just stick with the main lifts (squats, deads, bench and ohp) and roughly the same assistence exercises and just change the rep ranges and sets (done wendlers 531, now doing straight sets, 8-10 reps)


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## aad123

As you guys have said I totally agree with keeping a log book and trying to beat it every session. As I train alone its a great motivation tool and makes me push myself on every workout. I will stick with an exercise untill I stop making any gains then I will change to another exercise and max out on that so the programme may stay the same but the exercises performed will change as required.


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## faultline

simonthepieman said:


> IIFYM is more relevant cutting than bulking as your insulin response is pretty irrelevant when in a deficit (hunger control aside). I dropped from 16 to 11% BF in 2 months using a nice IIFYM Set up that allowed me to drink every weekend and have a cheat day on Saturday eating 4k calories. I'll share it when I get the chance.


Hi mate, I'll have a read of that IIFYM setup when you get the chance, cheers


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## Alex_Tait

Full body gives great strength gains and protein synthesis elevation. The workouts tend to drag on though and there isn't much room for specialization.


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## 4NT5

simonthepieman said:


> For anyone who is interested, here is my Upper/Lower templete that will give great results to the natty trainer.
> 
> Upper1
> 
> Bench 3 x 5
> 
> Row 3 x 5
> 
> Dips 4 x 10
> 
> Pull ups BW 4 x F
> 
> optional bi's & Side raises
> 
> Lower
> 
> Squat 3 x 5
> 
> SLDLs 4 x 10
> 
> Lunges 2 x 8 el
> 
> optional calves
> 
> Upper 2
> 
> Decline bench 3 x 5
> 
> t-rows 3 x 5
> 
> OHP 4 x 10
> 
> Chins 4 x 10
> 
> optional - triceps & facepulls
> 
> lower 2
> 
> Deadlifts 3 x 5
> 
> front squats 4 x 10
> 
> GHR or pull throughs or hamstring curls 2 x 8
> 
> optional - calves


On the exercise that are 3x5 do you keep the weight the same or ramp it up? What would u suggest for a 3 day routine?


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## aad123

amurphy said:


> On the exercise that are 3x5 do you keep the weight the same or ramp it up? What would u suggest for a 3 day routine?


For 3 day I would go push, pull, leg or alternatively upper, lower rotation.


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## 4NT5

aad123 said:


> For 3 day I would go push, pull, leg or alternatively upper, lower rotation.


Currently doing PPL


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## aad123

Give upper lower a try. Slightly more frequency than PPL.


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## Monkey skeleton

aad123 said:


> Give upper lower a try. Slightly more frequency than PPL.


X2 You'd be hitting each area 6 times every 4 weeks.


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## Delboy GLA

Havent been around in a while glad to see this thread got sum interest.

My routine has pretty much settled on my own push-pull days 2 heavy and 2 light and I feel it's best for natty's or probably anyone to make gains on a structured compound movement routine with heavy weight and varying rep ranges starting the week heavy then general hypertrophy later in the week.


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## simonthepieman

aad123 said:


> Following a recent recomp where I did a 4 day split. Heavy push - heavy pull - rest - light push - light pull - rest - rest. This worked great for me but as I start to bulk I am now switching to a 3 day full body workout.
> 
> Workout A - squat, bent row, clean & press.
> 
> Workout B - deadlift, dips & chins.
> 
> I will simply alternate between the 2 workouts. Im not sure how it will go but Im going to give it my all. I think as said that you need to change thing around and try new things as even the perfect routine will become stale after a while.


Solid thinking there,


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## simonthepieman

Monkey skeleton said:


> X2 You'd be hitting each area 6 times every 4 weeks.


it's also worth noting that PPL can be done 4 times a week and personally I think that's the optimum way to do it. Each body part hit 2 a week


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## aad123

Iv just started a 8x8 push/pull split on a 4 day a week training split so each body part is hit twice a week. It very demanding but should yield so good gains. I think for a natural trainer more frequency and volume is the way to go, just my view.


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