# Anavar & Turinabol Stack - any point of both?



## Raptor (Feb 16, 2010)

Ok some may of seen my new year cycle plans and that i was umming and areing over which oral to use, i'm stuck between Tbol and Var. I'd use either of them at 100mg but how about 50mg or each? Or would that be counter productive?


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## MRSTRONG (Apr 18, 2009)

ive just used 100mg of var and 60mg of tbol nothing wrong with being bigger and stronger they both work well together imo .

i will runn 100mg of each next time though .


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## apple (Feb 16, 2011)

Var and tbol threads seem to be poping up everywhere lately lol

I have never used either but I have used Winny 100 mgs ed and results were some of the best I had , was so tight and pumped felt like my skin was going to tear


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

Raptor, since I know you I won't tear you a new a$$hole for this thread ;-)

Ok have posted about this quite a bit lately, as Apple has noted...

The Basic Points:

1. Oxandralone (var), stanozolol (winny) and mesterolone (proviron) are ALL DHT derivatives (in increasing closeness to DHT; Proviron is the closest thing we have to orally active Dihydrotestosterone (DHT). It's basically methylated (1-methyl) DHT)

2. ALL the above are 17-alpha alkylated to remain orally active, as are all orally active AAS (including t-bol, d-bol and oxys)

3.Liver Toxicity is based on having the 17-alpha alkylation.

So why is anavar considered mild? becuase original pharma anavar (when all these studies where done, they where all pharma) came in 2.5mg tabs...

No one took (in the studies) 50mg of anavar... they took 2.5-5mg (designed for women and children); even d-bol was given in studies at 10mg (came in 5mg tabs) since that was considered te FULL adult replacement testosterone dose for adult men..

So yes in the studies, anavar caused the least liver disruption... and anapolon/anadrol-50 the most (50mg tab)

Nowdays, most use UGL anavar, and dose at a hgher rate than oxys! every one shakes in their boots about doing 100mg of oxys for 4 weeks, but think nothing of 6-8 weeks on 100mg anavar... and mg for mg, they ahve the same liver toxicity- they have the SAME 17-alpha alkylation!

Next myth.. anabolic/androgen ratio:

The androgenic:anabolic ratio of an AAS is an important factor when determining the clinical application of these compounds. Compounds with a high ratio of androgenic to a anabolic effects are the drug of choice in androgen-replacement therapy (e.g., treating hypogonadism in males), whereas compounds with a reduced androgenic:anabolic ratio are preferred for anemia and osteoporosis, and to reverse protein loss following trauma, surgery, or prolonged immobilization. Determination of androgenic:anabolic ratio is typically performed in animal studies, which has led to the marketing of some compounds claimed to have anabolic activity with weak androgenic effects. *This disassociation is less marked in humans, where all anabolic steroids have significant androgenic effects*

from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anabolic_steroid

actually the point is... anavar is meant to be somewhere between 1:3 and 1: 13 on the androgenic to anabolic ration, and oxys are 1:3. What does this mean? well from an androgen perspective I'd be more comfortable with my girl taking 12.5mg (quarter) of oxy-50 than 50mg of anavar... even low androgen: anabolic ratio AAS like anavar, are high androgens at higher doses.. its dose dependent...the overall androgen levels build up! (not a big deal for guys, but just be aware that at 100mg/day, anavar is not a low androgen...)

Where anavar, winny, t-bol, d-bol, oxys etc differ? (well t-bol and d-bol are Testosterone derviatives, and Oxys are PROGESTERONE derivatives, and the others as I've said before are DHT derivatives) is that the differnces between them is the other effects- so anavar and winny have very little water retention, d-bol and oxys loads, and t-bol in between those.... so choose on effect..

what does all the above mean? well from a value for money perspective, I'd use winny over anavar if I'm dieting and want low water retention... if on an oral only cycle, i'd add an equal amount of proviron; if taking injectibles I'd add masteron to keep hard and dry...

there is nothing magic about anavar fat loss wise... its just low water retention.. and winny is just as good and half the price.. the rest is all diet and training for fat loss!


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## Fatstuff (Mar 2, 2010)

Ausbuilt - crusading against anavar since 1957  'one day old chum, I will dispel these myths surrounding you and crush you into oblivion, until that day-enjoy ur time at the top as that pedestal is short lived for you'


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## thecoms (Nov 1, 2010)

Are we saying mg for mg var is as affective as oxys ?


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

Fatstuff said:


> Ausbuilt - crusading against anavar since 1957  'one day old chum, I will dispel these myths surrounding you and crush you into oblivion, until that day-enjoy ur time at the top as that pedestal is short lived for you'


I'm Super Synthol Ausbuilt, I stand for TRUTH, HIGH DOSES and the ANABOLIC WAY! LOL



thecoms said:


> Are we saying mg for mg var is as affective as oxys ?


NOT AT ALL.. mg for mg as toxic... as all AAS have the same REASON to be toxic- the 17-alpha alkylation (except of andriol, which is testosterone undecanoate, which is absorbed lymphatically and doesnt undergo first pass through the iiver, its unique in that).

Apart form the 17-alpha alkylation, all the oral AAS have slight structural differences (and different starting points, some are DHT based, others testosterone based, and others are progesterone based); these slight structural differences can have marked difference on effect... its PROVEN that oxys put the most WEIGHT/Body mass on- in AIDS studies, anavar the least, test and deca somwhere in the middle.. but these studies used generally 200-250mg of deca or test, and up to 150mg of orals like oxys.

My point is choose based on effect you want, as at the same dosage, not much diff in liver toxicity (if any!) between oxys and var...

My other points is, anavar is EXPENSIVE, and WINNY is cheap... and run at the same dosage, winny is cheaper, will give slightly more results (maybe) but be jsut as as "dry" as the var...


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## Raptor (Feb 16, 2010)

ausbuilt said:


> Raptor, since I know you I won't tear you a new a$$hole for this thread ;-)
> 
> Ok have posted about this quite a bit lately, as Apple has noted...
> 
> ...


Exceptional info from Ausbuilt as usual :thumbup1:


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## Raptor (Feb 16, 2010)

Aus after what you said about C17's all being the same by mechanism would i be ok with 100mg Var for 12 weeks?


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## bighead1985 (Dec 31, 2010)

I have some Var and Tbol left from previous cycles and was considering doing 40mg of both a day and completing the rest of the 8 weeks with just tbol


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## datz (Dec 21, 2011)

ausbuilt said:


> Raptor, since I know you I won't tear you a new a$$hole for this thread ;-)
> 
> Ok have posted about this quite a bit lately, as Apple has noted...
> 
> ...


Wow.....Makes sense that they are equally toxic mg for mg.......was thinking of anavar or winny or maybe a combination of both.....the other sides of winny scare me though..LOLZ...but thanks to your post, i guess im not going to be very generous with the dosages...


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## Hotdog147 (Oct 15, 2011)

Look at the raw prices between Winny and Var and then check ugl's prices(especially the 50mg tabs) I have just switched to winny from var as it was a head fcuk knowing if they were actually the real deal!! Not slating at all but with winny at least you know!!

To the Op i did Var and tbol for couple weeks before i switched but dropped the tbol cuz i was getting itchy nips!!!


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## Rav212 (May 18, 2011)

I'd say the extra cost of Anavar is worth not getting the joint pains from winny. U can't put a price on ure joints think of the long run.

I couldnt even push myself to the max when using winny at around week5 because of wrist pains/shoulder pains and started thinking what's was even the point doing this.

On Anavar 150mg ed now week3 strength up very nicely and can push to the max as no joint pain


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

Rav212 said:


> I'd say the extra cost of Anavar is worth not getting the joint pains from winny. U can't put a price on ure joints think of the long run.
> 
> I couldnt even push myself to the max when using winny at around week5 because of wrist pains/shoulder pains and started thinking what's was even the point doing this.
> 
> On Anavar 150mg ed now week3 strength up very nicely and can push to the max as no joint pain


interesting you mention the joint issues with stanzolol. Oddly the only people who mention it are various people on these kind of forums...

Medically speaking, stanozolol (what winstrol actually is) has been commonly used medically, DAILY for 20-40 YEARS with no adverse effects:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17765757

admittedly, the dose is 2mg/day, so low, but talk about long term use..

If you search the medical literature there is no mention of stanzolol causing joint issues- and why would it? its a DHT derivative same as proviron, anavar, masteron, and none of the others cause joint pain.

I believe its a placebo like effect- people expect to have joint pain from winny.... I also believe this developed from track and field athletes- they use explosvie techniques including plyometrics in their training- the strong muscle development allowed greater weight use, but the lagging tendon support and lack of water retention means there is less cushioning for the explosive movements, and tendonitis and joint issues became common. Olympic lifters ALSO do plyometrics, but they tended to favour dbol and test prop and never had these issues.. so people attributed the problem to winny "drying out the joints", but there is NO medical evidence for ANY anabolic steroid having an effect on the synovial fluid in the joints- cortico steroids do.... and these where often used to treat tendonitis etc..

Then people jump on the band wagon and everyone says they have sore joints on winny..... i suspect most 50mg/tab var tabs are really winny... anyway..


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## andymc88 (Aug 18, 2011)

Could the saw joints be down to pushing heavy weights in a short time not letting the ligaments catch up with stronger muscles, btw ausbuilt prob the best read on here for me


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

andymc88 said:


> Could the saw joints be down to pushing heavy weights in a short time not letting the ligaments catch up with stronger muscles, btw ausbuilt prob the best read on here for me


something like that.. depends on the training too..

as for the best read- thanks- just trying to bring some sanity into play rather than rumour.. Not saying ANY AAS is safe, or without sides; everyone reacts differently to drugs.. but AAS are not new, and there is no evidence to say stanozolol causes sore joints; its the wrong kind of drug for this to happen.


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

gymfreak786 said:


> ausbuilt- sorry to hijack the thread but im new to this forum and need some really important help.. can you have a look at my thread please mate as you look extremley knowledgeable... please please help mate.


what thread?


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## Rav212 (May 18, 2011)

Intresting i actually looked into this now and saw a study which actually says stanazolol increases collagen lol so winny is good for ure joints apparently.

However this doesn't take away the fact that so many people for so many years have reported joint pain from winny. I don't think we can attribute this down to a bandwagon effect here ausbuilt. I belive sometimes u have to look at personal evidence from users rather than look for studys all the time, as in the study's I don't believe the participants are using the AAS for bodybuilding purposes therefore "some" findings would be unreliable or us bodybuilders.


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## Slight of hand (Sep 30, 2008)

ausbuilt said:


> interesting you mention the joint issues with stanzolol. Oddly the only people who mention it are various people on these kind of forums...
> 
> Medically speaking, stanozolol (what winstrol actually is) has been commonly used medically, DAILY for 20-40 YEARS with no adverse effects:
> 
> ...


My own experience, whenever i use either Var or Winny my wrists start to kill me....i also get calcified lumps on my wrists. I believed exactly what you just posted, however, 3 months ago i had this discussion with a well known competitor, he didnt believe me so i though feck it i'll throw in the 40 Var i still had left into my cycle...2 weeks later and 2 lumps in my wrists again. Rather odd. This has now happened on 4 seperate occassions with the same meds. I can tolerate it but it happens nevertheless.


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

Slight of hand said:


> My own experience, whenever i use either Var or Winny my wrists start to kill me....i also get calcified lumps on my wrists. I believed exactly what you just posted, however, 3 months ago i had this discussion with a well known competitor, he didnt believe me so i though feck it i'll throw in the 40 Var i still had left into my cycle...2 weeks later and 2 lumps in my wrists again. Rather odd. This has now happened on 4 seperate occassions with the same meds. I can tolerate it but it happens nevertheless.


calcified lumps on the wrists, I'd actually believe.. since AAS do help deposit calcium (which is why the NHS STILL keeps Decaduraboln on the BNF- for WOMEN with oesteoperosis- as it does help build bone mass).


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## musio (Jan 25, 2008)

ausbuilt said:


> i suspect most 50mg/tab var tabs are really winny... anyway..


Aus, would you mind going into this a little further? What are your thoughts?

Are you thinking that the only var production comes from Pfizer which is rare to find and UGs are just selling winny as var as it's hard pressed to notice the difference?

I know real var is very very expensive and as there is only one company making it, the gates are tightly shut as the monopoly is won by the manufacture... so yes...it's cheaper to synth and substitute winny.

Would be interested to get some var tested as I'm starting to question how much var there is in these UG tabs...


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## infernal0988 (Jun 16, 2011)

Alot of people are jumping on Tbol now hmmmm wonder why? I mean im including Tbol in my cycle for the first time ever and was going to do 80mg ED but now im just gonna do 50mg and see , as im just doing Tbol for the strength to catch up again the first few weeks of my cycle not trying to add mass with it, the Test and Tren will do that.


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## flinty90 (Jul 1, 2010)

ausbuilt said:


> *calcified lumps on the wrists*, I'd actually believe.. since AAS do help deposit calcium (which is why the NHS STILL keeps Decaduraboln on the BNF- for WOMEN with oesteoperosis- as it does help build bone mass).


celery seed extract should help with this !!!!


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## JustConsulting (Jul 10, 2012)

ausbuilt said:


> interesting you mention the joint issues with stanzolol. Oddly the only people who mention it are various people on these kind of forums...
> 
> Medically speaking, stanozolol (what winstrol actually is) has been commonly used medically, DAILY for 20-40 YEARS with no adverse effects:
> 
> ...


Hey Ausbulit, i know it`s an old thread, but the fact is i never feel any pain anywhere, but 2 x on winny and my left shoulder strated to give up, after 5 weeks i couldn`t use any wheight cus i was screaming out of pain.who knows why ???/


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