# BUSTING OUT THE KETO!



## C.Hill (Nov 21, 2010)

Right, decided to run a keto diet to shred down to single bf%. Is my first day and am finding it alot easier than i thought it would be, going to keep a small log to keep track of progress with pics. Current weight is 192.5lb. My daily macro's are- 2227kcals/271g protein/119.2g fat/24.6g carbs. Diet is- 07:00 4 whole eggs, 3 whites, 2 rashers bacon. 09:45 100g chicken, (loads) brocolli, baby sweetcorn stirfried in olive oil. 12:00 100g mince, 150g spinach fried in olive oil and fat. 2:30 2 turkey breasts seasoned with paprika, loads green beans. Preworkout- 2 scoops jack3d, 15g bcaa, 10g glutamine, 5g creatine. Postworkout- 50g whey, 15g bcaa, 10g glutamine, 5g creatine, 3g DAA. 6:00 sirloin steak seasoned, 150g spinach fried in fat. Dessert(for sanity)- 100g blueberries n strawberrys, squirty cream. Prebed 9:15 30g whey, 15g bcaa, 5g glutamine, 25g almonds. So far havnt really been hungry what with all the veg. Energy levels were good in the gym, 175kg x5 deadlift which is new pb! Apparantly next 2 days are hardest so will see how it goes!


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## TommyFire (Jul 18, 2010)

Protein is too high, fat is too low.


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## C.Hill (Nov 21, 2010)

Really? What do you reckon they should be? Done my research and others members of thè forum reckon its fine. Grateful for any input as its my first time on keto.


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## Virtus (Apr 30, 2007)

Protein equal to LBM, the rest fat


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## C.Hill (Nov 21, 2010)

On dorian yates site he recommends 1.5g protein per lbw, and fat 0.5g fat per lbw, ive just given myself more fat to make up the kcals. Surely a higher protein intake will protect my hard earned muscle?


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## will-uk (Apr 12, 2010)

sounds good pal


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## Virtus (Apr 30, 2007)

Since i first read the book many years ago i've always, and will always, follow the plans laid out first by Dan Duchaine and the Lyle Macdonald. You may not hit ketosis due to the amount of protein, but you also may. Run the diet and monitor, you'll know if you hit ketosis


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## C.Hill (Nov 21, 2010)

Virtus said:


> Since i first read the book many years ago i've always, and will always, follow the plans laid out first by Dan Duchaine and the Lyle Macdonald. You may not hit ketosis due to the amount of protein, but you also may. Run the diet and monitor, you'll know if you hit ketosis


 Ok mate, cheers. Will monitor and adjust weekly. How will i know if i hit ketosis?


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## Virtus (Apr 30, 2007)

I find that i have a tin like taste in my mouth, bad breath, pee will stink. People use ketostix which i don't rate; i think you'll know when you are in, after about the 3rd day may feel like crap, but this is just the shift into ketosis.


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## C.Hill (Nov 21, 2010)

Right ok sounds lovely lol. Once you shift to ketosis do you still feel crap? And after the refeed will the body repeat the process?


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## Virtus (Apr 30, 2007)

After a day or 2 you'll feel fine. Its quite strange wiuth carb up because you will feel crap doing it and want to get back into ketosis. I become very tired while carbing; probably expected when eating 800+g carbs.

Before you carb up make sure you have entered ketosis, because like i said i think it will be hard eating 271g protein.


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## C.Hill (Nov 21, 2010)

Virtus said:


> After a day or 2 you'll feel fine. Its quite strange wiuth carb up because you will feel crap doing it and want to get back into ketosis. I become very tired while carbing; probably expected when eating 800+g carbs.
> 
> Before you carb up make sure you have entered ketosis, because like i said i think it will be hard eating 271g protein.


800g carb up? I was only gonna do 350g?? 271g protein is easy mate im pretty hungry after each meal still.


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## C.Hill (Nov 21, 2010)

Virtus said:


> After a day or 2 you'll feel fine. Its quite strange wiuth carb up because you will feel crap doing it and want to get back into ketosis. I become very tired while carbing; probably expected when eating 800+g carbs.
> 
> Before you carb up make sure you have entered ketosis, because like i said i think it will be hard eating 271g protein.


800g carb up? I was only gonna do 350g?? 271g protein is easy mate im pretty hungry after each meal still.


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## Pictor (Jan 10, 2011)

Virtus said:


> Protein equal to LBM, the rest fat


x2


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## blackbeard (May 3, 2009)

C.Hill said:


> On dorian yates site he recommends 1.5g protein per lbw, and fat 0.5g fat per lbw, ive just given myself more fat to make up the kcals. Surely a higher protein intake will protect my hard earned muscle?


I'm sure Dorian isn't referring to a keto diet with this info,too much protein and not enough fat and your body will be utilizing protein as it's primary energy source.


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## The Ultimate Warrior (Dec 20, 2010)

I personally don't bother with a carb up. I feel its a waste of time.


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## The Ultimate Warrior (Dec 20, 2010)

I should say that they are usefull if natural!


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## C.Hill (Nov 21, 2010)

blackbeard said:


> I'm sure Dorian isn't referring to a keto diet with this info,too much protein and not enough fat and your body will be utilizing protein as it's primary energy source.


 Im not making it up for the fun of it mate, its on there. It even says 0.4-0.5g fat per lbw which is 96g! Im reading too many contradicting theories and measurements, dont know what to believe. All i know is im 2.5lb down already, which is probs glycogen and water.


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## thomas123 (Feb 20, 2009)

As long as 40% of your calls come from fats you will end up in keto.

Your diet is fine mate possibly lower the protein a tad to 250g.

Its results that count not a multitude of differing opinions on boards


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## C.Hill (Nov 21, 2010)

Thanks for your input mate, yer im losing weight so will constantly adjust it. Im frying everything in olive oil so am getting alot more fat that. Appreciate it.


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## Stvjon41 (Jan 16, 2011)

Aren't the sweetcorn, blueberries and strawberries contradictory for the keto diet?


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## C.Hill (Nov 21, 2010)

Stvjon41 said:


> Aren't the sweetcorn, blueberries and strawberries contradictory for the keto diet?


 No. Its 7.8g carbs. Full of antioxidants and vit c. Sweetcorns only a small amount and is mainly fibre. Its all good.


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## Stvjon41 (Jan 16, 2011)

C.Hill said:


> No. Its 7.8g carbs. Full of antioxidants and vit c. Sweetcorns only a small amount and is mainly fibre. Its all good.


Cool


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## C.Hill (Nov 21, 2010)

Stvjon41 said:


> Cool


 Ive only finished 2nd day and really look forward to eating it haha


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## liam0810 (Jan 6, 2011)

Are you doing the refeed over 24 or 48 hours? Or a shorter period?

I was reading up and it says to get between 9g-16g per kilo of lean body mass. That means as I am about 90kg with 15% bodyfat I would be about 76.5kg of lean body mass. This means my refeed would be between 688g - 1224g! I would struggle getting this in over 24 hours let alone 48hours! Or am I misreading this?


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## The Ultimate Warrior (Dec 20, 2010)

I havn't actually heard Dorians thoughts on a Keto diet, can you link me? I have studied alot of his nutrition advice, as I have many, but with fat being that low, and protein being that high, is he assuming a steroid course is in place? Or is this for a natural athlete.

If it doesn't say, its got to be for non-natural.


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## SteamRod (Oct 1, 2007)

C.Hill said:


> Surely a higher protein intake will protect my hard earned muscle?


its actually more likely to kick you out of ketosis or have you hovering in and out not getting deep enough meaning your body will try to convert your muscle into energy.

the idea is to have just the right ammount of protein not too much and not to little. then use fat to make up the calories.


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## SteamRod (Oct 1, 2007)

JPaycheck said:


> I personally don't bother with a carb up. I feel its a waste of time.


if you are a 300lb beached whale not training then MAYBE you dont need a regular refeed.

for a weight training individual you definitely do for many reasons.


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## will-uk (Apr 12, 2010)

I too have read a lot of contradicting thoughts on keto, but the main aim seems to be:

Protein = to LBM

As much fat as you like within reason ie: extra virgin olive oil, fatty meats, salmon etc...

Max 30-35g carbs

*Here is an example posted by pscarb on another thread, hope this helps:*

i would again advocate a keto style diet i just put a freind on a diet just like this and he has lost 8lbs in the first week which the majority will be water but saying that yours will to.

it is pretty extreme and not for the faint hearted here it is..

Meal 1:

8 whole eggs

Meal 2:

Two scoops of Extreme Protein with 1 serving of natural peanut butter with water.

Meal 3:

8 oz. of lean meat with large bowl of green salad with 1 Tbsp flax/Olive oil and vinegar

Meal 4:

Two scoops of Extreme Protein with 1 serving of natural peanut butter with water.

Meal 5:

8 oz. lean meat with 1 serving of cashews/peanuts

Meal 6:

8 oz. lean meat with 1 serving of cashews/peanuts.

pick one day a week normally a sat for one Hour eat 300 g of carbs then back on the diet.

do 1 session of cardio in the morning before breakfast of 40min walking is best as any thing over 65% of max and you will burn carbs instead of fat.

take a fatburner 3x daily

take Clen at 80mcg per day 2 weeks on 2 weeks off...

this should drop a fair amount of weight this is extreme but you did say you wanted to do what it takes....fast..

This is what i intend to be starting soon anyway!!


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## will-uk (Apr 12, 2010)

However i will be changing the nuts to macadamia nuts as these are the best nuts for a keto diet as they have the most fat and fewest carbs of all the nuts.


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## Virtus (Apr 30, 2007)

C.Hill said:


> Im not making it up for the fun of it mate, its on there. It even says 0.4-0.5g fat per lbw which is 96g! Im reading too many contradicting theories and measurements, dont know what to believe. All i know is im 2.5lb down already, which is probs glycogen and water.


You will loose weight because you are in a calorie deficit; its that simple.

Eating 271g protein will cause Gluconeogenesis; this process synthesizing glucose from non-carbohydrate sources; so in your case Protein.

If you are depleting properly then eating 350g carb is not sufficient for a carb up. The most important part of a CKD is glycogen supercompensation, overlooked by far to many people when undertaking a CKD, they just see the carb up as a free day and not count calories/macros etc. The carb up, IMO, is the most important part of the diet.

Eating sweetcorn, blueberries or strawberries is not a good idea for a Keto, regardless of the amount; it defeats the object of the diet, they contain fructose, a simple sugar, the complete opposite of what you need. Fibre rich veg is the only thing you should be eating to accompany protein and fats.


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## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

Virtus said:


> You will loose weight because you are in a calorie deficit; its that simple.
> 
> Eating 271g protein will cause Gluconeogenesis; this process synthesizing glucose from non-carbohydrate sources; so in your case Protein.
> 
> ...


Good post, but eating the blueberries and strawberries is only going to be a major issue if it put's his total macro's out of whack. And fructose is primarily dealt with by the liver, where it refills hepatic glycogen, so if he's depleted it'll have a negligable impact anyway.


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## C.Hill (Nov 21, 2010)

SteamRod said:


> its actually more likely to kick you out of ketosis or have you hovering in and out not getting deep enough meaning your body will try to convert your muscle into energy.
> 
> the idea is to have just the right ammount of protein not too much and not to little. then use fat to make up the calories.


Right i get ya! Ok cheers makes sense now, im eating way to much protein! Gonna drop it to 190g and make up the kcals with fat. Cheers for the help lads, appreciate it.


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## C.Hill (Nov 21, 2010)

Virtus said:


> You will loose weight because you are in a calorie deficit; its that simple.
> 
> Eating 271g protein will cause Gluconeogenesis; this process synthesizing glucose from non-carbohydrate sources; so in your case Protein.
> 
> ...


Agreed, good post. And again contradicting pscarbs diet quoted on page 2 about the carb up. Ive been told the carb up should consist of 300g, 500g and 900g! How much should it be?? And on other boards ive read blueberries and strawberrys are fine as long as they fit in with the carb macro's??


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## Virtus (Apr 30, 2007)

bayman said:


> Good post, but eating the blueberries and strawberries is only going to be a major issue if it put's his total macro's out of whack. And fructose is primarily dealt with by the liver, where it refills hepatic glycogen, so if he's depleted it'll have a negligable impact anyway.





C.Hill said:


> Agreed, good post. And again contradicting pscarbs diet quoted on page 2 about the carb up. Ive been told the carb up should consist of 300g, 500g and 900g! How much should it be?? And on other boards ive read blueberries and strawberrys are fine as long as they fit in with the carb macro's??


There are many ways to skin a cat with regards to ketogenic diets. I've ran a CKD where i haven't been that bothered about the carb up and the general diet, and i've also ran it according to many articles i've read (mainly Dan Duchaine and Lyle Macdonald); i've had greatest success and shredding using a pre-laid out, follow everything by the book plan.

The reason the fruit needs to be dropped will be due to the liver, what Bayman has stated is correct with fructose being handled by the liver. But to achieve full ketosis the liver also needs to be depleted. Depletion of muscle glycogen allows for the supercompensation during the carb up; prior to the last workout of the week and the carb up it is ideal to eat a small piece of fruit to shift the body out of ketosis, so the carbs consumed during the carb-up are utilised properly.

The carb-up, and the length of time required, is dependant on the amount of depletion that has occured during the week. Using an average of 45 seconds per set heavy lifting, the below gives an indication of the length:

Carb up time No of sets per bodypart

12hr 1

24hr 3

36hr 5

48hr 8

Following this, using slow heavy lifts, will deplete muscle glycogen, the length of the carb-up will ensure resynthesis of glycogen. Now by following a proper laid out carb-up you will be taking full adavantage of the work put in and shouldn't gain any fat (you will look bloated though). Carbs should be at 8-10grams per KG of LBM with no more than 50g of fat.


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## C.Hill (Nov 21, 2010)

Right ok mate il drop the fruit, google a carb up plan and consume roughly 550g carbs. I dont understand the carb up time chart. Do you mean number of bodyparts trained during the week? Or the amount of bodyparts trained before the carb up? I was gonna have carb up day on a rest day, but there wouldnt be much point in that would there? Thanks again.


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## Dave10 (Feb 24, 2010)

the only post ive read is this one below mine by c hill so if it doesnt apply to what you need them dont bitch at me

ive been doing keto recently and ive had a few carb ups where ive not done a depletion work out and ive not noticed a single difference

my 1st carb up was so bad i overloaded on carbs

my second one was alot better i had honey and oats, rice and chicken rice and tuna 2 apples 2 bananas a chinese takeaway as a treat, it worked out like 500 carbs which seemed to work the best

anyway heres a link to absolutely everything you need to know regarding your carb up and keto

http://www.mesomorphosis.com/articles/mcdonald/carb-up-and-ketogenic-diet.htm


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## C.Hill (Nov 21, 2010)

Right lads, think ive got it, how does this sound? Total kcals- 2268kcals. (Protein- 189g 756kcals.) (Fat- 154g 1392kcals.) (Carbs- 30g 120kcal.) Carb-up 696g. Better?


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## SteamRod (Oct 1, 2007)

macros look good on paper run it and see then adjust if if you need.

refeeds- right before the refeed itself have a depleation workout (full body is best). That is make sure there is no CHO in your system (there shouldn't be anyway) your body will then make the most of the dextrose you are about to give it. Start with simple sugars (dex PWO) then work down to the more complex and the starches in the second 24 hour the idea is super compensation here.

my advise is not to go nuts with the refeeds the first few times if you want better results. Once you know how things are going and can get into ketosis quicker then you can be abit more liberal

are you having a 24 or 48 hour refeed?

get some coconut oil for after the refeed saturated fats help you get into ketosis quicker.


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## C.Hill (Nov 21, 2010)

SteamRod said:


> macros look good on paper run it and see then adjust if if you need.
> 
> refeeds- right before the refeed itself have a depleation workout (full body is best). That is make sure there is no CHO in your system (there shouldn't be anyway) your body will then make the most of the dextrose you are about to give it. Start with simple sugars (dex PWO) then work down to the more complex and the starches in the second 24 hour the idea is super compensation here.
> 
> ...


Brilliant info mate, yer ive wrote down the diet and it looks solid, gonna be starving! Will only be consuming 4.8g carbs. I was just gonna wake up, eat high protein breakfast and a piece of fruit, have a depletion workout then carb up till i go to bed, so around 14 hours, is that okay? Thanks for tip on coconut oil, will do that!


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## SteamRod (Oct 1, 2007)

a decent ammount of fat in there it tends to keep the hunger down. Just the carb cravings for the first few weeks to deal with. The first few weeks getting into ketosis is abit grim aswell but it gets easier and faster each time.

refeed- run it for 14 hours to begin with if your performance in the gym is taking a skydive then you will know to bump it up in length and amount of carbs. I have my refeeds over a day and a half for example.

dont forget for each lb that you loose the diet needs to be 3500 cals lighter the next week for the same loss so it needs to be able to be jigged about easily.

when you do start post your first fews days of the diet in here and we can let you know what we think.

Either way above is just how I would do it what works for you works for you but there are some good guidelines here to get you started.


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## C.Hill (Nov 21, 2010)

SteamRod said:


> dont forget for each lb that you loose the diet needs to be 3500 cals lighter the next week for the same loss.


Brilliant, but what do you mean '3500kcals lighter the next week'?


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## C.Hill (Nov 21, 2010)

New diet- 7.30- 5 whole eggs, spinach. 9.45- 2 grilled bacon rashers, 25g almonds, brocolli, cauliflower. 12.00- 200g mince, spinach. 2.30- 200g mince, spinach. Postworkout- 1 scoop whey, bcaa's. 6.15- 100g steak, brocolli. 9.30- 25g almonds. Hits macros bang on.


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## SteamRod (Oct 1, 2007)

C.Hill said:


> Brilliant, but what do you mean '3500kcals lighter the next week'?


you need to have 3500 less calories in the diet the following week if you loose a lb or 7000 if you loose 2lb or 70/140 less cals per day if you can be that anal.

looks good so far some salmon or fish oils in there a couple of days a week as you know and you should be onto a winner.


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## C.Hill (Nov 21, 2010)

But if i did that every week id end up with 0kcals if you get my drift? Bit confused, when do you stop taking 3500kcals off? Thanks again mate, youve helped alot, and i take fish oils religously everyday anyway.


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## SteamRod (Oct 1, 2007)

.


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## SteamRod (Oct 1, 2007)

my maths is off, bollox

I sort it right for you and post it for you tomorrow


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## C.Hill (Nov 21, 2010)

Thanks mate appreciate it, that would be alot of kcals to drop lol


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## Virtus (Apr 30, 2007)

Dave10 said:


> the only post ive read is this one below mine by c hill so if it doesnt apply to what you need them dont bitch at me
> 
> ive been doing keto recently and ive had a few carb ups where ive not done a depletion work out and ive not noticed a single difference
> 
> ...


What do you nmean you have noticed anything different?? Do you mean you've still lost weight??


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## Virtus (Apr 30, 2007)

SteamRod said:


> you need to have 3500 less calories in the diet the following week if you loose a lb or 7000 if you loose 2lb or 70/140 less cals per day if you can be that anal.
> 
> looks good so far some salmon or fish oils in there a couple of days a week as you know and you should be onto a winner.


The diet with carb-up will be enough to sustain weight loss for a while. Once you hit the wall of weight loss stops or slows you either; shorten the carb load (say from 36 to 24hrs, or 24 to 12hrs) or if you want to mess around with daily macros you should deduct 500cals worth of fat (55g) per day from your diet and this should do the trick. You will need to keep protein at the same level constantly to maintain LBM.

C.Hill i have a copy of the ketogenic ebook and BodyOpus if you would like me to email you a copy; it'll explain everything you need to know and the science behind it


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## Jim78 (Aug 20, 2010)

If you haven't already, you seriosuly need a BG monitor! they are worth their weight in gold.

I HAD to have more fat then protein in my meals to get/stay in ketosis, whilst I have heard some can have 50g protein per meal and only 30g fat and stay in, its very person dependant, but as a general rule, id keep meals at the 30g pro/30g fat.

Tbh Ive seen people's meal plans on paper and thought it wouldn't work, but it did, cutting out carbs for a start will make a massive difference within 2 weeks, you will drop lots of water and be tighter.

Best advice regarding Keto diets on here Ive seen are by Ausbuilt, top bloke and will always give advice to genuine people.


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## C.Hill (Nov 21, 2010)

Virtus said:


> The diet with carb-up will be enough to sustain weight loss for a while. Once you hit the wall of weight loss stops or slows you either; shorten the carb load (say from 36 to 24hrs, or 24 to 12hrs) or if you want to mess around with daily macros you should deduct 500cals worth of fat (55g) per day from your diet and this should do the trick. You will need to keep protein at the same level constantly to maintain LBM.
> 
> C.Hill i have a copy of the ketogenic ebook and BodyOpus if you would like me to email you a copy; it'll explain everything you need to know and the science behind it


 So say week 1 im 192lb protein intake will be 192g. In week 2 say, im 188lb, take protein intake down to 188g, so im adjusting protein intake daily/weekly. Is that right? And obviously adjusting fat. Also, big question- coke zero? No carbs or sugars, just 1kcal a can. Read on other boards its ok to drink this but not go overboard as there was someone who reckons they got thrown out of ketosis from it? Never drink anything but water anyway, but i reckon(and others) it will curb sugar/carb cravings??


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## Virtus (Apr 30, 2007)

No not quite, protein in take should be equal to lean body mass. So if you way 192 and you lbm is 180, then protein will stay at 180g and should not move because the diet is designed to preserved lbm whilst shredding fat; this is where the importance of the carb-up comes into play. The reduction in calories should always come from fats. But truthfully there should be no need to reduce cals for a while, always look at the carb up first (either length or food consumed) if weight loss slows, then adjust macros as the last resort. It should be a couple of months before you will need to reduce macros.

With regards to coke zero (and in my case coffee), i had to cut these out believe it or not. For weeks i was not enetering ketosis and it was down to this. I think it is personal and how the body reacts (there is substance in there which for the life of me i cannot remember that may affect entering ketosis), no need to cut it out straight away, see how you go. Make sugar free jelly and whipped cream your new fav friend, that hits the cravings perfectly 

PM me your email, i'll send you a copy of the ketogenic diet, it'll clear it up a whole lot for you


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## C.Hill (Nov 21, 2010)

Right, thats where im going wrong then, how do i work out lbw accuratly? I will see how i go with coke zero for a week or two, like i said i never drank it before so not too fussed. Sugar free jelly and whipped cream, yum yum! Thanks will pm asap.


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## Jim78 (Aug 20, 2010)

Virtus said:


> No not quite, protein in take should be equal to lean body mass. So if you way 192 and you lbm is 180, then protein will stay at 180g and should not move because the diet is designed to preserved lbm whilst shredding fat; this is where the importance of the carb-up comes into play. The reduction in calories should always come from fats. But truthfully there should be no need to reduce cals for a while, always look at the carb up first (either length or food consumed) if weight loss slows, then adjust macros as the last resort. It should be a couple of months before you will need to reduce macros.
> 
> With regards to coke zero (and in my case coffee), i had to cut these out believe it or not. For weeks i was not enetering ketosis and it was down to this. I think it is personal and how the body reacts (there is substance in there which for the life of me i cannot remember that may affect entering ketosis), no need to cut it out straight away, see how you go. Make sugar free jelly and whipped cream your new fav friend, that hits the cravings perfectly
> 
> PM me your email, i'll send you a copy of the ketogenic diet, it'll clear it up a whole lot for you


Agree, there are a few things that easily knock people out of Keto without realising, diet coke, GH, clen, all raised my BG over 5.6....damn stuff!


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## C.Hill (Nov 21, 2010)

Jim78 said:


> If you haven't already, you seriosuly need a BG monitor! they are worth their weight in gold.
> 
> I HAD to have more fat then protein in my meals to get/stay in ketosis, whilst I have heard some can have 50g protein per meal and only 30g fat and stay in, its very person dependant, but as a general rule, id keep meals at the 30g pro/30g fat.
> 
> ...


Where can i get a bg monitor mate? Sounds useful.


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## Jim78 (Aug 20, 2010)

C.Hill said:


> Where can i get a bg monitor mate? Sounds useful.


I got one off amazon mate for £15 with 10 test strips, the only ballache is the strips cost £23 for 50 :-(

But will deffo give you a good idea what works and what doesn't, and more importantly if your in keto.

lancets;

http://www.healthcare4all.co.uk/Diabetic+Equipment/Glucoject+No-Dol+Lancets+%28100%29.html

Monitor;

http://www.healthcare4all.co.uk/Diabetic+Equipment/Glucomen+LX+Blood+Glucose+Monitor.html

Test strips;

http://www.healthcare4all.co.uk/Diabetic+Equipment/Glucomen+LX+Blood+Glucose+Test+Strips+%2850%29.html


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## C.Hill (Nov 21, 2010)

Cheers, and your right that aint cheap!


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## SteamRod (Oct 1, 2007)

Hi mate,

I got mixed with loosing and the ammount of cals per week you need.

if you just recalculate your maintaince cals each week according to your weight and have a calorie defecit each day(I like 500 less per day) you should be good to go.

Lyle McDonald's book is very comprehensive. I would recommend you at least skim through it.


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## C.Hill (Nov 21, 2010)

Right its been 5 days now and ive lost 5.5lbs. Mainly water and glycogen id imagine. I feel alot tighter already and look better. Was weird because up till wednesday/thursday i was tired, starving and pretty snappy, since yesterday ive felt alot more energetic, happier and awake. Strength workouts have been suffering a bit but not too much, morning fasted cardio has been going well. Now im not 100% sure if ive hit ketosis so im asking is it worth another week of keto dieting to get my body used to it or should i still carb up tomorrow as planned? Knowing i can eat peanut butter on toast and chicken pasta tomorrow is the only thing thats kept me going lol


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## The Ultimate Warrior (Dec 20, 2010)

C.Hill said:


> Right its been 5 days now and ive lost 5.5lbs. Mainly water and glycogen id imagine. I feel alot tighter already and look better. Was weird because up till wednesday/thursday i was tired, starving and pretty snappy, since yesterday ive felt alot more energetic, happier and awake. Strength workouts have been suffering a bit but not too much, morning fasted cardio has been going well. Now im not 100% sure if ive hit ketosis so im asking is it worth another week of keto dieting to get my body used to it or should i still carb up tomorrow as planned? Knowing i can eat peanut butter on toast and chicken pasta tomorrow is the only thing thats kept me going lol


I have my fair share of Keto experience and I just wanted to say, don't worry so much. Its so much easier than people make out. Just try it out. If you want to carb up then do it, or wait another week.

I know some people don't like to be given choices haha, so i'll say that, if you were my client, I would say do another week. Make it 14 days in total before carb up.


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## SteamRod (Oct 1, 2007)

carb up mate it will be good for your head as well just do go over board like we said. If you go to the chemist and ask for ketosix you will be able to tell 100% if you are in ketosis or not.

rancid breath is also also an indicator.

The reason why you feel more energetic on Thursday is because your body made the shift to using ketones as energy as opposed to the little carbohydrate you had in your blood.

Each week that point should get closer.


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## The Ultimate Warrior (Dec 20, 2010)

SteamRod said:


> If you go to the chemist and ask for ketosix you will be able to tell 100% if you are in ketosis or not.


Not true, do not rely on Ketostix, they are essentially useless for non diabetics.


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## C.Hill (Nov 21, 2010)

Right ok cheers lads, ive decided im gonna have a small amount of carbs over 3 meals tomorrow, then back on the diet sunday. Recalculated my kcals, they are- 174.8g protein/ 156.4g fat/ 3.6g carbs/ 2192kcals. And am gonna get some ketostix from tesco chemist tomorrow. Thanks for all the help getting my diet in check and tips and experience, really has helped clear things up and gave me a good start with the basic knowledge i need. Im sure theres still ALOT i need to learn and most of that will come with experience. Its looking positive!


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## The Ultimate Warrior (Dec 20, 2010)

Again, save money and don't buy ketostix, use the money for a glucometer or more food!!!


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## C.Hill (Nov 21, 2010)

JPaycheck said:


> Not true, do not rely on Ketostix, they are essentially useless for non diabetics.


 Really? Ive read they work quite effectively?


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## SteamRod (Oct 1, 2007)

C.Hill said:


> Really? Ive read they work quite effectively?


So did I...


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## The Ultimate Warrior (Dec 20, 2010)

Which brings me to your second set of questions. For background, low-carb dieters have often used a product called Ketostix which change color to indicate the concentration of ketones in the urine. Yes, you pee on them and they change color to indicate the presence or absence of ketones in the urine.

There are a number of problems with Ketostix not the least of which is that urinary ketone concentration is at best a very indirect indicator of what's going on in the body. True ketosis is defined in terms of blood concentrations (terms ketonemia), not urine (terms ketonuria). But since you can't easily measure ketones in the blood (no, you can't put blood on the Ketostix, I tried it years ago and it doesn't work), the next best thing is urinary ketones.

Now, obviously, if you have ketones in your urine, you certainly have them in your bloodstream. However, the absence of ketones in the urine doesn't mean that you're not still in ketosis (as defined by blood concentrations). You might be in ketosis as measured by blood levels but simply not be excreting any in the urine. Or not excreting enough to change the Ketostix.

Basically, there are a variety of things that influence whether or not there are enough ketones present to be excreted in the urine in sufficient quantities to make the Ketostix change colors. For example, you might not be making ketones in sufficient quantities (this happens in lean people, especially if they are very active), lots of water can dilute your urine and the ketone concentration, some other variables can impact on whether or not you show ketones on the Ketostix.

As you might imagine, at the end of the day, I don't think focusing on ketosis per se (or the lack thereof) or the Ketostix is very valuable. You can develop deep ketosis by gorging on dietary fat (especially Medium Chain Triglycerides) but your calories will be so high that you won't be losing much, if any fat, that way. And you can lose fat without ever showing a single ketone in the urine. Basically, there's just no real correlation between ketosis, what the Ketostix are showing and fat loss.

Basically, I have seen too many dieters focusing on the Ketostix instead of what's important: relative amounts of fat and lean body mass lost. Focus on the latter, if you're losing fat and maintaining lean body mass, your diet (low-carbohydrate or otherwise) is working, whether you are in ketosis or not.


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## The Ultimate Warrior (Dec 20, 2010)

The biggest problem with keto strips in my opinion is that dieters get hung up on them as the absolute reference point for how well they are doing.

There is so much variance in the results keto strips show, if you test yourself after a workout you will probably show little to no ketones. This will be because your body used the ketones to fuel your workout.

At the other end of the scale if you eat a high fat meal and test yourself once its digested, you will show a high level of ketones. This is because they will be present in your body and the overspill will be in your urine.

The point I am making is ketones are made from fat, fat eaten and your body fat and the sticks only reflect the amount of ketones in your urine. The amount of ketones in your urine has no bearing on the amount of body fat being used for fuel.


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## The Ultimate Warrior (Dec 20, 2010)

Some low carbers NEVER show above trace or negative even ... yet they burn fat and lose weight just fine. If you're losing weight, and your clothes are getting looser, you're feeling well and not hungry all the time .. then you are successfully in ketosis. Don't get hung up on the strips; they're just a guide, nothing more.


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## The Ultimate Warrior (Dec 20, 2010)

Sorry for so many posts, but just did a quick search for some of the books I have read and they arn't online, so I've taken some information from websites.

Trust me, Ketostix are pointless, even a glucometer is 20% +/- so theyre not perfect.

What its important to remember as Lyle Mcdonald says, Ketosis is a by product of a ketogenic diet. Don't be hung up so much on whether your inn ketosis or not.


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## Jim78 (Aug 20, 2010)

nothing will give a better reading of being or not being in ketosis than a BG mtr, IMO though.


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## Jim78 (Aug 20, 2010)

JPaycheck said:


> Sorry for so many posts, but just did a quick search for some of the books I have read and they arn't online, so I've taken some information from websites.
> 
> Trust me, Ketostix are pointless, even a glucometer is 20% +/- so theyre not perfect.
> 
> What its important to remember as Lyle Mcdonald says, Ketosis is a by product of a ketogenic diet.* Don't be hung up so much on whether your inn ketosis or not.*


Really good point actually, as long as carbs are zero or extremly low, you will lose weight (fat) weekly and look a lot tighter and better.


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## The Ultimate Warrior (Dec 20, 2010)

Jim78 said:


> nothing will give a better reading of being or not being in ketosis than a BG mtr, IMO though.


Yep, absolutly correct. As I said they can be 20% +/-, the best one taken from lab results testing the accurancy of Glucometers shows the "Accu-check Aviva

" brand to be on average 8% out, so by far the most accurate.


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## C.Hill (Nov 21, 2010)

Jpaycheck you star. Very useful information regarding ketostix. Cheers for finding all that! Makes sense especially about water diluting the ketone concentration, i drink ALOT of water. Im just gonna follow fatloss by the mirror and the scales.


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## The Ultimate Warrior (Dec 20, 2010)

C.Hill said:


> Jpaycheck you star. Very useful information regarding ketostix. Cheers for finding all that! Makes sense especially about water diluting the ketone concentration, i drink ALOT of water. Im just gonna follow fatloss by the mirror and the scales.


No probs mate. I only diet using Ketogenic diets as they work fantastically well. Once you have done them 3 or 4 times you really get used to them, and can tell things about your body without glucometers or anything like that.

Now sit back and prepare for the greatest ab show on earth.


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## C.Hill (Nov 21, 2010)

JPaycheck said:


> No probs mate. I only diet using Ketogenic diets as they work fantastically well. Once you have done them 3 or 4 times you really get used to them, and can tell things about your body without glucometers or anything like that.
> 
> Now sit back and prepare for the greatest ab show on earth.


 Haha. How long do you reckon its ok to stay on it for? And for carb-ups, say im going out for a meal with missus or a take away with the lads or something on that day, say i do a full body depletion workout, would it be wise to grab a burger and chips or chinese? Itl very rarely happen just wondered if it would be ok in moderation?


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## The Ultimate Warrior (Dec 20, 2010)

C.Hill said:


> Haha. How long do you reckon its ok to stay on it for? And for carb-ups, say im going out for a meal with missus or a take away with the lads or something on that day, say i do a full body depletion workout, would it be wise to grab a burger and chips or chinese? Itl very rarely happen just wondered if it would be ok in moderation?


Thats a very good and very debated question. I personally find such incredible results from Keto that 10 weeks is the longest I have stayed on for. Although I do know people who have done up to six months, the problem doing Keto for that long is that they found it very difficult to introduce carbs again, and suffered 'Keto belly', this is where you get terrible bloat from carbs and stomach pains and diraheo.

So I personally think its best to do no more than 3 months, although that is personal preference.

Absolutly, certainly keep you sane! I feel no problem in having a burger or a chinease or something outside of the planned carb up, aslong as its only 1 meal a week, and it isn't dreadfull, AND you continue to drop fat.

You would be surprised what you can get away with.

The best advice possible, TRACK EVERYTHING, the more you track, the better you can experiment and push the boundaries, and you can really find out how your body works and reacts to food, and most importantly if your aiming for Ketosis, then what ratio of macronutrients push/keep you into ketosis and what keeps/pushes you out.


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## C.Hill (Nov 21, 2010)

Superb mate! Got some heavy squats tomorrow then a big mac!


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## C.Hill (Nov 21, 2010)

6 days total and am 7.5lbs lighter. Good results am lookin alot leaner. Just Had a mental leg session and got new pb on squats! Have started carb up with a dirty big mac and chips lol was heaven! Feel guilty now but gotta be done!


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## The Ultimate Warrior (Dec 20, 2010)

Hate the guily after a carb up, had a cheat meal last night; 2 bowls of crunchy nut cornflakes; 5 biscuits; half a bag of liquorice and a yogurt, for some reason the guilt never goes for me!

Roll on Pankcake day for a massive cheat!


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## C.Hill (Nov 21, 2010)

Haha im gonna have to give pancakes a miss on tuesday!  Have also discovered walnut oil! Tastes loads better than olive oil! Have recalculated my macro's again and improved my diet so wont be so hungry. They are- 2194kcals, [174.7 protein] [157.2 fat] [3.6 carbs] . What do people think? Is fat too high?


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## Pictor (Jan 10, 2011)

Im no expert but fats look good to me mate... I always keep my fats high as possible on a CKD/Keto


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## C.Hill (Nov 21, 2010)

Ok mate, yer ive never had a diet that high in fats before lol not sure if its too much.


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## Pictor (Jan 10, 2011)

At the moment my Kcals are around 1800/2200 the ratios are- 5% carbs, 40% protein and 55% fat

Im dropping weight steady and im never hungry!

It's all good


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## Jim78 (Aug 20, 2010)

C.Hill said:


> Ok mate, yer ive never had a diet that high in fats before lol not sure if its too much.


Thats the 1st thing people doing a keto think, and its nothing to worry about, remember, when in ketosis your burning fat, you'll for the the most part, hold muscle too.

Just stick with it for 4 weeks and you'll be over the moon with the results.


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## The Ultimate Warrior (Dec 20, 2010)

1413 calories coming from fat, so that should be pretty sufficient , and provides a good calorie drop.


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## C.Hill (Nov 21, 2010)

Cheers lads, put my mind at ease. Still hitting pb's, got bent over bb row 95kgx5! Also, thank heavens for sugar free jelly and squirty cream! Made loads of the stuff!


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## C.Hill (Nov 21, 2010)

Weigh in- 184lbs. 8.5lbs lost and still retaining strength. Got used to a hungry stomach now. After first carb up on saturday put 2lb on putting me upto 187.3. Since sunday lost 3.3lb. Going well! Seem to have more energy and get up a in morning than when bulking. Weird?


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## SteamRod (Oct 1, 2007)

less carbs do this too you. Possibly lack of dairy

one of the things I dislike about bulking is how lethargic I feel with all the carbs and dairy.


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## C.Hill (Nov 21, 2010)

Same here man, il finish my lunch at work and struggle to walk let alone work! Other advantage is every meal is like a treat lol so nice to just chew and swallow lol


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## Tom90 (Jan 29, 2010)

Havent updated for a few days, how's it going?

This thread has been a good read, my first attempt at keto in January, lost 3.9lbs in the first week, 7.8lbs in the second week

Think my carb up was dominos, fish and chips and probably a Chinese!

I had no idea you were meant to have cleaner carbs during the carb up lol!!!

Think this time around I'll keep it cleaner with some low GI carbs..


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## Don-karam (Mar 19, 2011)

This is great, keep up the good work mate!

I just started my Keto diet today and its interesting  so gotta fix my diets up now for the rest of the week.


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## C.Hill (Nov 21, 2010)

Alrite lads, appreciate comments on the thread. I actually stopped my keto diet on friday! Only done 3 weeks and managed to whittle down to 181.5lb! All in all lost 11lb! Look loads better for it. The reason i stopped was i think i was overtraining a bit, cardio in the morning and training heavy in the evening on low kcals really drained me. 11lb in 3 weeks is pretty good imo so i left it at that, would definatly go keto again though!


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