# Can a good routine be built without squats and deads !!!!



## retro-mental (Dec 2, 2010)

Have recntly re done my back in. Its no way near as bad as the first time but i am suffering at the moment. Only saving grace is no sciatica. I was getting back into squats and deads but feel i tried to run before i can walk. Only got to an 80kg deadlift and back is in bits after 6-7 months of no pain. This has lead me to believe i will never be able to "properly" deadlift or squat again. I may get back to them one day but in the meantime i am thinking of building a routine with no squats and no deadlifts.

Who works out like this and what are your thoughts

Forgot to edit in that i train at home so not machines like leg press etc etc. I also train more for strength than size so leg extentions are good but more for size than strength although i may need to rethink training for strength and do a part size part strength routine


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## S_Soldier (Jun 25, 2008)

Yeah of course it can. Squats, bench and deads are staple components of the majority of people's regimes but it doesn't mean they are the be all and end all.

I spent the first 3 years of my training without ever doing a deadlift and still put on a fair amount of size and strength (although they're my favourite exercise now!  )


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## mikemull (Oct 23, 2011)

Heavy leg press for legs and t bars, bent over barbell and db rows for back will still add lots of size! I see lots of ppl in the gym wh

O have good physiques without doing the big 2.


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## Milky (Nov 30, 2008)

NEVER do squats, never will, and never break any records on deads so IMO yes you can mate.


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## ianm2585 (Mar 14, 2010)

Have you tried doing partial deads and squats i done this for a while when injured and slowly lowered the blocks on the deads and dropped the bars for the squats took a while to get back to normal but only doing partials made the lift more stable ,


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## evad (Mar 17, 2008)

surely theres loads of alternatives, things like powercleans, rack pulls, rows, etc

obviously i do not know the extent of what you can and can not do so don't take the above as gospel

met loads of lads over the years with good upper bodies but no lower bodies so it must be possible


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## SneakyCarrot (Nov 20, 2011)

In my personal opinion, squats and deadlifts are over-rated. Alot of people do them becuase they are seen as many excercises. Its right that they are used in competition to measure srength becuase they are so bloody hard lol. I did my first ever squats lastnight, I didnt even do a particuarly heavy weight as I was learning, so only loaded on 100kg. Anyway, you can definately reach the physique your after without the two excercises. Still have major respect for those who can squat and dead high.


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## Moonbeam (Jul 20, 2011)

if your working on strength then in the long run no imo but gaining muscle shouldnt be a problem


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## MattGriff (Aug 21, 2012)

Rolla said:


> In my personal opinion, squats and deadlifts are over-rated. Alot of people do them becuase they are seen as many excercises. Its right that they are used in competition to measure srength becuase they are so bloody hard lol. I did my first ever squats lastnight, I didnt even do a particuarly heavy weight as I was learning, so only loaded on 100kg. Anyway, you can definately reach the physique your after without the two excercises. Still have major respect for those who can squat and dead high.


What about if he is after a powerlifters physique ;-)

Try variations, trap bar deadlifts, hack squats etc. - it is most certainly possible to train around them, more so if you are concerned with appearance over function and at the end of the day if you are injured you are injured and have to re-strengthen what you can and manage what you can't. Its not like you are pussying out of doing them when you are able bodied.


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## Danny_Arnold (Jan 2, 2012)

i rarely do squats or deadlifts.

deads are a fave exercise of mine as i can handle 200k so makes me feel a beast in the gym lol (im 67k)

but goin for a PB on deads lead to a muscle twanging in my bag and my pelvis came outta line. with the money ive spent on chiropractors just to be pain free when sat upright has put me off ever wanting to deadlift again

squats i just dont like tbh... if i do em i go quite light and dont push on em like i do leg presses etc. again - its an exercise where a lot of weight can be put on the lowerback n hips

but my physique is symmetrical if i do say so myself, so making 'adjustments' (in the accent of ronnie coleman) works well. think about what muscles are used and simply mimic an exercise that hits the same muscle/muscle group. i make half of my exercises up these days

ure only loss to not doin squats is you'll never do another exercise like it, with regards to how much HGH is stimulated to be released when doing heavy squats. it is the biggest compound u can do with such weight and the reaction from the body (from exerting a lot of effort on complex muscle groups like legs, lower back, core etc - which are all used in squats) is to pump a shed load of hgh and test into the blood to allow bursts of strength and growth to handle the weight. someone once told me that the body goes into 'panic mode' when you squat because its such a stressful exercise, the body senses danger hence all the hormones being released to help the body survive

but yeaaaaaaaa.... u can still build an allround physique without em!


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## retro-mental (Dec 2, 2010)

Milky said:


> NEVER do squats, never will, and never break any records on deads so IMO yes you can mate.


I was waiting for your reply as i know you are not a fan of squats and go on the dorian approach to leg training. I also know ming does not do squat or deads but thats due to injury rather than preferance



evad said:


> surely theres loads of alternatives, things like powercleans, rack pulls, rows, etc
> 
> obviously i do not know the extent of what you can and can not do so don't take the above as gospel
> 
> met loads of lads over the years with good upper bodies but no lower bodies so it must be possible


Rows are in already. I do pull ups aswell. Would like to give cleans a go but the upper back is getting hit. The lower isnt and really with deads its the powering through with the legs as most back work can be done. I could even do good mornings ( if the back holds out ) for lower



Moonbeam said:


> if your working on strength then in the long run no imo but gaining muscle shouldnt be a problem


 I Havent really a goal as in Bodybuilding , powerlifting or strongman but i tend to prefer a strongman type workout ( without the strength !!! )



MattGriff said:


> What about if he is after a powerlifters physique ;-)
> 
> Try variations, trap bar deadlifts, hack squats etc. - it is most certainly possible to train around them, more so if you are concerned with appearance over function and at the end of the day if you are injured you are injured and have to re-strengthen what you can and manage what you can't. Its not like you are pussying out of doing them when you are able bodied.


s funny you say that as most people have commented that to build muscle its ok but what about strength. Through power and strength training these are the 2 staples of the routines. I actually enjoy them too but feel the back is not strong enough for me to progress properly in the 2 exercises. I had 4 disc buldges 1 and a half years back and just recently have got some pain back. Trap bar would be great due to the spine being locked in a better position but i have home gym with standard plates and lack of money to buy trap bar and oly plates for it unless they do a standard trap but i dont think they do. Have never go on well with hacks but i may need to give them a go again


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## defdaz (Nov 11, 2007)

I'll probably get this put on my tombstone:

'Your muscles don't know what exercise you are performing, only how hard you're asking them to contract'

Some exercises are more 'effcient' than others in that they work a greater number of muscle groups. Squats and deads are great examples of these since they work glutes, hams, lower back, abs, quads (and traps etc. with deads) etc.

The flip side of these multi-muscle exercises is that they are non-specific. You can't choose how much your quads are affected during deads. You can't really reduce the load on your glutes during squats. This lack of targetability is what leads many bodybuilders to concentrate more on isolation exercises so that we can put specific muscles under specific loads each workout.

So whilst deads and squats are great if you're just after indiscriminate growth over a good portion of your body they are less good if you're trying to target quad growth, for instance. There are so many alternative and more specific exercises to deads and squats that it shouldn't be any great concern mate. Do the exercises that you can whilst working on improving your core strength, it's all good. :thumb:


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## Milky (Nov 30, 2008)

Mate at the end of the day nothing is worth your back.... if you can do them light go for it, if you feel a twinge you stop immediatly..


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## defdaz (Nov 11, 2007)

My legs and I rarely squat (though I did in the past - 240kg for 14 was my best)...


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## MRSTRONG (Apr 18, 2009)

focus on upper body in your home gym and go swimming to help strengthen your lower chain .


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## defdaz (Nov 11, 2007)

IronDan said:


> I woundnt be touching good mornings with lower back issues


Guess it depends on what kind of good morning we're on about lol!

I wouldn't touch them fullstop. Why on earth would you balance a heavy barbell across your spine when you can just hold a barbell or dumbells in your hands and do stiff leg deads? Bizarre.


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## retro-mental (Dec 2, 2010)

ewen said:


> focus on upper body in your home gym and go swimming to help strengthen your lower chain .


I swim like i have been knee capped and shot in the head !!!! but it seems that i will be doing this. Stick with the routine you wrote up minus deads and squats for the moment. Do extentions instead of squats and more core work instead of deads maybe


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## retro-mental (Dec 2, 2010)

defdaz said:


> Guess it depends on what kind of good morning we're on about lol!
> 
> I wouldn't touch them fullstop. Why on earth would you balance a heavy barbell across your spine when you can just hold a barbell or dumbells in your hands and do stiff leg deads? Bizarre.


You can do them light with a barbell in front like a front squat hold. I cant really do SLDL either, they were the original culprit of my back. I prob wont do good mornings though as they are just an injury waiting to happen


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## defdaz (Nov 11, 2007)

Once healed up you will need to do lower back work though retro to build your strength back up. How do you fare with hyper-extensions? With stiff legs you do have a bit of a bend at the knee, right? And you don't round your back? Don't go down too far either, just encourages rounding for no real benefit, especially if you have lower back injuries.


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## MRSTRONG (Apr 18, 2009)

retro-mental said:


> I swim like i have been knee capped and shot in the head !!!! but it seems that i will be doing this. Stick with the routine you wrote up minus deads and squats for the moment. Do extentions instead of squats and more core work instead of deads maybe


dunno if you remember our first posts when you joined .

along the lines of ... getting your physio to help you build a routine or you may cause further damage .

so now your full circle 1 one year your literally back where you started .

my advice is gonna be a reapeat of my first post in here mate , focus on your upper in your gym and go swimming < this will strengthen every muscle in your body to better cope with loads in the future .

if you do not get the smaller muscles stronger to support yourself now 5-10 years time you may not be able to walk un-aided .

so please man the fuk up and seek specialist help .

thats is said with your best interests at heart mate .


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## stone14 (Mar 24, 2005)

retro iv just had a microdisectomy on 23nov 2011 got my 6week check up on 17th jan, i plan on just doing hindu squats for my legs and max out of back extrensions for my spine erectors, pull ups for my back and no more squats and dealifts.

i was reading about an indian wrestler retired undefeated in 1901 had over 5000 wrestling matches and retired undefeated, he put most of his wins down to the fact he had huge legs from doing 500 hindu squars per day religiously everyday, hi did yous the od weights balanced ontop of his head but his main leg workout was 500 hindu squats ed for decades he was 260lb no steroids in them days.

i would give them ago dude if you ever get to 500 ed then your garanteed to have oak tree legs lol, i ran testp/win back in sept 3-4weeks just to give me a lil boost and i did 120 x3 a week and my legs were growing fine, to start i could only manage 70 but soon went up to 120's in a few weeks, rep gains were slowing like, some days i managed less so think i was over doing them, defo a great squat tho without weight


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## stone14 (Mar 24, 2005)

http://www.animal-kingdom-workouts.com/hindu-squats.html

mate furey

http://www.mattfurey.com/hindu_squats.html

the royal court (these 3 percific bw exersises)






the hindu squat step by step,(balance is the main key but you get used to it like riding a bike lol)


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## Double J (Nov 1, 2009)

I have had lower back issues for many years mate and I have not therefore deadlifted at all since the 1990's, nor have I squatted since then. Are they good exercises for muscle growth - absolutely, are they essential for muscle growth - definitely not. As Milky said, no exercise is worth your back - if it goes properly you could be out of the gym for many months (or worse). Agree with the advice re swimming and upper body for now. There are plenty of people about with better physiques than many on here that don't squat or deadlift mate I can assure you.

Good luck with your back issues, I know what a b1tch they can be.


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## Mingster (Mar 25, 2011)

Hello mate. I've every sympathy with you and, as you know, I've had similar problems myself.

Yes, you can get away without these two exercises, but I have had the advantage of doing them for many years prior to my injury. The problem for you is the fact that you train in a home gym without the access to leg machines. I know you can do, for example, hacks without a machine but said machine makes it much easier to avoid tweaking the back imo.

I've recommended lunges before, but another alternative may be bench step-ups with a dumbbell in each hand couples with something explosive like standing jumps. The way you are at the moment, mate, I would be limiting myself to some steady core work for lower back and not worrying too much on numbers on a bar. Things may well improve with time as they have - hopefully lol - for me. All the best to you, mate:thumb:


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## banjodeano (Jan 9, 2011)

stone14 said:


> retro iv just had a microdisectomy on 23nov 2011 got my 6week check up on 17th jan, i plan on just doing hindu squats for my legs and max out of back extrensions for my spine erectors, pull ups for my back and no more squats and dealifts.
> 
> i was reading about an indian wrestler retired undefeated in 1901 had over 5000 wrestling matches and retired undefeated, he put most of his wins down to the fact he had huge legs from doing 500 hindu squars per day religiously everyday, hi did yous the od weights balanced ontop of his head but his main leg workout was 500 hindu squats ed for decades he was 260lb no steroids in them days.
> 
> i would give them ago dude if you ever get to 500 ed then your garanteed to have oak tree legs lol, i ran testp/win back in sept 3-4weeks just to give me a lil boost and i did 120 x3 a week and my legs were growing fine, to start i could only manage 70 but soon went up to 120's in a few weeks, rep gains were slowing like, some days i managed less so think i was over doing them, defo a great squat tho without weight


I am puzzled here....the Hindu Squats.? i thought you had to lift heavy with just a few reps to make mass gains, doing 500 Hindu squats will surely not build any mass. its like a cyclist turning the pedals thousands of times per ride, really toned legs, but not a lot of size..what am i missing here guys.?


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## stone14 (Mar 24, 2005)

pedeling is a smaler movement than doing a ful squat, plus if you do it under 15mins like matt furey said should be your aim 500reps in under 15min its very HIT even tho its only your bodyweight, you couldnt do 500reps in under 15min witand not have impressive legs imo lol to have the ability to do this ed, i believe it will defo force your legs to grow,

will also be a mental and cardio fitness chalenge

500reps in 15mins is 1 full ass to grass rep and back up in 1.8 seconds constant,

also its more to do with intensity put upon your muscle i think ...

a few guys who ive read who can squat loads cant manage many of these, the weight they can lift does not reflect on the amount of hindu squats they can do.... as if it was a totally diffrent movement and way of training your legs.....


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## Geonix (Apr 4, 2011)

I think it's more to do with actually training the major muscle groups, when people say I dont do squats, generally majority of people i know barely train their legs.. Hormone production hello?!


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## stone14 (Mar 24, 2005)

i agree, the legs ishlaf your body,, madness no to train them if you can


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## essexboy (Sep 7, 2008)

No you dont need either.However,what you do need is heavy leg work.A decent leg press will substute,unfortunately, they seem to be as rare as hens teeth in most gyms.

Deadlifts are really a magical movement that stress virtually the whole musculature very positively.Personally if i had back issues id buy a trap bar and use that for deadlifts.Ensure PERFECTLY slow form.That is 5 seconds up, 5 seconds down, and work up to 15/20 reps.worked hard this will stress everything very positively, and also give you CV system a thorough blitzing as well.Trust me.Dont buy a chrome plated type.The plain painted ones, offer more grip,which you will need!


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## retro-mental (Dec 2, 2010)

ewen said:


> dunno if you remember our first posts when you joined .
> 
> along the lines of ... getting your physio to help you build a routine or you may cause further damage .
> 
> ...


I am seriously **** at swiming but i will give this ago again as i need a bit of cardio chucked in. Like you said i will concentrate on upper but still train legs with actions that do not place stress on the spine. Extentions, curls , calf raises and lunges.

When my back went the first time i see loads of specialists and they all say differnt stuff. Dr says medication, surgeon says surgery, pain managment says pain management. It got better and settled of its own accord last time but i ran before i could walk without strengthening the core properly. They mainly say give up weights



stone14 said:


> retro iv just had a microdisectomy on 23nov 2011 got my 6week check up on 17th jan, i plan on just doing hindu squats for my legs and max out of back extrensions for my spine erectors, pull ups for my back and no more squats and dealifts.
> 
> i was reading about an indian wrestler retired undefeated in 1901 had over 5000 wrestling matches and retired undefeated, he put most of his wins down to the fact he had huge legs from doing 500 hindu squars per day religiously everyday, hi did yous the od weights balanced ontop of his head but his main leg workout was 500 hindu squats ed for decades he was 260lb no steroids in them days.
> 
> i would give them ago dude if you ever get to 500 ed then your garanteed to have oak tree legs lol, i ran testp/win back in sept 3-4weeks just to give me a lil boost and i did 120 x3 a week and my legs were growing fine, to start i could only manage 70 but soon went up to 120's in a few weeks, rep gains were slowing like, some days i managed less so think i was over doing them, defo a great squat tho without weight


I will give them a go but can imagina getting bored. I may be wrong though !!



SON OF FRANK said:


> I have had lower back issues for many years mate and I have not therefore deadlifted at all since the 1990's, nor have I squatted since then. Are they good exercises for muscle growth - absolutely, are they essential for muscle growth - definitely not. As Milky said, no exercise is worth your back - if it goes properly you could be out of the gym for many months (or worse). Agree with the advice re swimming and upper body for now. There are plenty of people about with better physiques than many on here that don't squat or deadlift mate I can assure you.
> 
> Good luck with your back issues, I know what a b1tch they can be.


I was out for 18 months before. Its not gonna happen this time as i am going to take steps to not let that happen HOPEFULLY !!!!



Mingster said:


> Hello mate. I've every sympathy with you and, as you know, I've had similar problems myself.
> 
> Yes, you can get away without these two exercises, but I have had the advantage of doing them for many years prior to my injury. The problem for you is the fact that you train in a home gym without the access to leg machines. I know you can do, for example, hacks without a machine but said machine makes it much easier to avoid tweaking the back imo.
> 
> I've recommended lunges before, but another alternative may be bench step-ups with a dumbbell in each hand couples with something explosive like standing jumps. The way you are at the moment, mate, I would be limiting myself to some steady core work for lower back and not worrying too much on numbers on a bar. Things may well improve with time as they have - hopefully lol - for me. All the best to you, mate:thumb:


Have always wanted to give standing jumps a go as its great for power but lunges will be making an appearance again


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## Brutal1 (Jan 25, 2011)

My back is fooked and im waiting to see the specialist, What i do for legs is, superset heavy slow leg extensions with squats, lots of sets and reps seem to work well for me, infact my quads are my best body part by far.

Strange thing is, When training every body part it almost cripples me, but when i train legs im not too bad????? I trained chest and delts yesterday and almost broke down in tears in front of my missus on the floor when i got home.

I just went for a walk with my 4 year old on my shoulders and it caused crazy sciatica, Im almost certain that my back would be almost fine if i didnt do weights 5 or 6 times a week, If your injury is anything like mine (disc degeneration) I think its something you have to decide, back pain or muscles?????


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## mikemull (Oct 23, 2011)

After having a few injuries you've just gotta find what doesn't hurt you and works for you.

And remember, dorian didn't squatt!


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## broch316 (Dec 24, 2011)

hi mate i fooked my back and had to get surgery probably down to squats and deads .. am now slowly getting back to a decent weight with them but its taken 2 years away from me ... but for some reason i love squats and deads .... but theres plenty to do apart from that and remember theres some big guys on here who never do them so its not key to bodybuilding to do them ...


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## MattGriff (Aug 21, 2012)

retro-mental said:


> Is funny you say that as most people have commented that to build muscle its ok but what about strength. Through power and strength training these are the 2 staples of the routines. I actually enjoy them too but feel the back is not strong enough for me to progress properly in the 2 exercises. I had 4 disc buldges 1 and a half years back and just recently have got some pain back. Trap bar would be great due to the spine being locked in a better position but i have home gym with standard plates and lack of money to buy trap bar and oly plates for it unless they do a standard trap but i dont think they do. Have never go on well with hacks but i may need to give them a go again


Strength shop do one for £100 which is decent

Sadly actual strength is about using the body as a unit as that is how it functions - and the squat and deadlift are the most relevant for this. Train around it and strengthen the supporting muscle groups as best you can under advice from your physio. Then come back super slow and focus on form and movement.



defdaz said:


> So whilst deads and squats are great if you're just after indiscriminate growth over a good portion of your body they are less good if you're trying to target quad growth, for instance. There are so many alternative and more specific exercises to deads and squats that it shouldn't be any great concern mate. Do the exercises that you can whilst working on improving your core strength, it's all good. :thumb:


You shouldn't discriminate against squats and their like so much - take your leg picture, the quads are not particularly well developed (no offence, just an observation), then you get lifters who focus only on squatting and power movements that have quad development such as this



And my own quads, I rarely leg press and predominantly train squats, front squats and olympic movements, granted not 'cut' but there is rather a lot of mass given I am 6'1 and have a 33inch inside leg



And my training partners legs, a 50+ year old who just squats



There are ways of squatting to focus on hams, quads etc with much more functional was than you think - squats are a science.

If you are focusing on quad growth for example the high bar Olympic squat, front squat and hack squat (proper one not machine one) all develop huge quads (ask Tom Platz and Ronnie Coleman) and a great outer sweep.

If targeting hammies the low bar power squat works the hamstrings, adductors and glutes horrendously while still allowing the quads to grow.

If focusing on all over growth then the medium squat is the weapon of choice (ask Dennis Wolf) as it gives a balanced workout to even legs allowing continued balanced growth.

Squats are known as the king of exercises for a good reason, one that so many try to run and hide from (hard work) as rather than sorting out things so they can squat, they make excuses about how so many other things are equal and acceptable - yet all the pros at some point have hammered squats for the base muscle and strength required to take them to the levels they require.



defdaz said:


> Guess it depends on what kind of good morning we're on about lol!
> 
> I wouldn't touch them fullstop. Why on earth would you balance a heavy barbell across your spine when you can just hold a barbell or dumbells in your hands and do stiff leg deads? Bizarre.


Good mornings are one of the greatest exercises there are for strength and development in the hamstrings, erectors and glutes - they have a massive carryover to squats and deadlifts too.

As stiff legs place the weight in a different position the angle, pivot and moment of the weight are totally different - simple physics really, I'm a little surprised you have made such a comparison??



mikemull said:


> After having a few injuries you've just gotta find what doesn't hurt you and works for you.
> 
> And remember, dorian didn't squatt!




To quote Dorian

"I perform a set with 100% energy to 100% failure--then beyond, to 100% fatigue--and I won't do another set until I feel that the muscles have recuperated 100%, however long that takes. For example, when I take squats or leg presses to total fatigue, I know from experience that it's likely to be at least five or six minutes before I'll be able to even think about what my address or name is, let alone do another set."

And I must also add I personally witnessed one of Dorians leg sessions as a youth, he repped out with 280kgs for 14 reps in a controlled fashion - Dorian most certainly squatted.

He switched to Smiths after he felt he had enough mass as an ankle problem prevented him from front squatting heavy to target the quads.

If you can, and are not in the super refinement stage of bodybuilding then you should most certainly squat.


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## retro-mental (Dec 2, 2010)

ewen said:


> dunno if you remember our first posts when you joined .
> 
> along the lines of ... getting your physio to help you build a routine or you may cause further damage .
> 
> ...





stone14 said:


> retro iv just had a microdisectomy on 23nov 2011 got my 6week check up on 17th jan, i plan on just doing hindu squats for my legs and max out of back extrensions for my spine erectors, pull ups for my back and no more squats and dealifts.
> 
> i was reading about an indian wrestler retired undefeated in 1901 had over 5000 wrestling matches and retired undefeated, he put most of his wins down to the fact he had huge legs from doing 500 hindu squars per day religiously everyday, hi did yous the od weights balanced ontop of his head but his main leg workout was 500 hindu squats ed for decades he was 260lb no steroids in them days.
> 
> i would give them ago dude if you ever get to 500 ed then your garanteed to have oak tree legs lol, i ran testp/win back in sept 3-4weeks just to give me a lil boost and i did 120 x3 a week and my legs were growing fine, to start i could only manage 70 but soon went up to 120's in a few weeks, rep gains were slowing like, some days i managed less so think i was over doing them, defo a great squat tho without weight





SON OF FRANK said:


> I have had lower back issues for many years mate and I have not therefore deadlifted at all since the 1990's, nor have I squatted since then. Are they good exercises for muscle growth - absolutely, are they essential for muscle growth - definitely not. As Milky said, no exercise is worth your back - if it goes properly you could be out of the gym for many months (or worse). Agree with the advice re swimming and upper body for now. There are plenty of people about with better physiques than many on here that don't squat or deadlift mate I can assure you.
> 
> Good luck with your back issues, I know what a b1tch they can be.





MattGriff said:


> Strength shop do one for £100 which is decent
> 
> Sadly actual strength is about using the body as a unit as that is how it functions - and the squat and deadlift are the most relevant for this. Train around it and strengthen the supporting muscle groups as best you can under advice from your physio. Then come back super slow and focus on form and movement.
> 
> ...


Nice post matt. Made for an interesting read


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## stone14 (Mar 24, 2005)

yeh i can imagine hidu squats will ger boring also but not much choice for us with fookd backs lol, plyometrics is a good1 also if you can manage to jump


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## retro-mental (Dec 2, 2010)

stone14 said:


> yeh i can imagine hidu squats will ger boring also but not much choice for us with fookd backs lol, plyometrics is a good1 also if you can manage to jump


Dont think i will be jumping just yet but i will give it a go in the future


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## SuperRex (Sep 22, 2011)

Recently I have started getting Sciatic pains.... I have stopped deadlifting and squating and instead I now do Leg Press and leg extensions/Curls.... legs have actually grown and sciatic pain gone.

The personal trainer in my gym actually says I shouldn't go back to them..... I am doing Bar rows wide grip pulls etc


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## Papa Lazarou (Jul 4, 2007)

I don't squat and rarely deadlift - my profile picture is me. I'd like to think so.


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## defdaz (Nov 11, 2007)

MattGriff said:


> Good mornings are one of the greatest exercises there are for strength and development in the hamstrings, erectors and glutes - they have a massive carryover to squats and deadlifts too.
> 
> As stiff legs place the weight in a different position the angle, pivot and moment of the weight are totally different - simple physics really, I'm a little surprised you have made such a comparison??


I missed this lovely reply, sorry.

First off... you are so obviously not a bodybuilder.  Nothing wrong with that, of course.

Anway... good mornings... just plain wrong (and I am a physics teacher and have a degree in physiology, fun!). All your glutes, hammies, etc. know is the tension that's on them. They have no idea what they're resisting against or what exercise you're performing. Sure the weight is in a different place so to maintain your centre of gravity over your feet you'll need to stick your **** out backwards as you do the good morning. Other than that the bar position will not affect anything (assuming upper body posture remains correct). Will this make it a 'better', sorry 'one of the greatest' exercise for your lower chain, absolutely not. You'll get a nice stretch sure but improved hypertrophy? Of course not. You can get as much of a stretch as you like whilst doing stiff legs - done correctly you'll struggle to get the barbell much past your knees anyway, and you have to question why you would want to get an extreme stretch when it's well known that risk of injury increases near the limits of a muscles range.

If you want to place a heavy barbell across your neck and bend over, you go for it, don't let me stop you. So many people use their necks to keep the barbell in place. Scares the living daylight out of me.

After a few years training it will dawn on many bodybuilders that there is a definite risk / reward factor with every single exercise: Is the damage done to my ligaments / bones by this exercise justified by the results I get. Bodybuilding is a marathon, not a sprint. In order to progress you need to train uninterupted (i.e. injury-free) as much as possible. The only way to do this is to avoid or use sparingly the exercises that cause you issues. If squats hurt your knees or back, do them sparingly or not at all if there are other exercises that do not cause any issues. This is absolutely critical! Don't do exercise X just because someone like you raves about it. Do not be blinded by reality. No exercise is worth injuring yourself to do. Find alternatives, stay healthy, progress!

Why oh why do people attribute mythical status to certain exercises when it's proven scientifically that it's all about load / duration for hypertrophy? Keep it simple. Is your muscle X under a heavy load? Yes? Bingo!

I will go to my death bed confused as to why people think (and I'm not on about you here (off on a tangent sorry), since you're not a bodybuilder so aren't primarily interested in hypertrophy) that compound movements will target a muscle better than an isolation exercise. If you are doing squats and your lower back gives out and causes failure before your quads then guess what... it's not a particularly effective exercise for your quads! Sure your back will get a hell of a workout but as a bodybuilder that's not what we're after. Same with bench press, rows, whatever. If your triceps cause failure first then your chest won't be fully taken to failure. This is why pre-exhaustion supersets (such as db flyes / db press or leg extentions / squats) are so effective.

Oh just noticed your 'observation' ... sorry you don't think they're very big, that's really upsetting.  Just think someone with legs like yours (no offense, just an observation) shouldn't really criticise others. 

My whole point is that you don't need to squat to have big legs. If you think you do you are sadly mistaken. Sure if you are suited to squats then do them, they work well (as long as you like the big **** look) - I know as I did them a lot in my younger years (and they worked well as part of my routine) before the above understanding dawned on me and the back and knee injuries made me realise that it's better to use them sparingly and train injury free. Drop set leg extentions followed by drop set squats resulted in more than a few ceramic-damaging vomiting sessions.

Anyway, unfortunately I do agree partially with you. If you are well suited to quads then they work great! You'll get a nice big **** but then you will with any compound quad exercise. Unfortunately they also expose any issues with your structure and can cause long term damage and injuries. Hence the discrimination. Sure they work well for you but there are a very great many people they do nothing for. The damage they can cause to your spine keeps ostepaths in work though.

PS You're wrong about Dorian. From his book:

Be objective in analyzing which exercises are best for you. Some conventional movements might not be suited for your physique. In my case, it was squats. After many years of being faithful to them, I realized that the relative lengths of my bodyparts restricted the range of motion for squats. When I switched to the leg press, I made much faster gains in quad size and sweep.

Anyway have a nice day and enjoy your squatting. :thumb:


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## eezy1 (Dec 14, 2010)

get urself on a good old skool legpress =] fcuk deads theyre optional


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## defdaz (Nov 11, 2007)

SuperRex said:


> Recently I have started getting Sciatic pains.... I have stopped deadlifting and squating and instead I now do Leg Press and leg extensions/Curls.... legs have actually grown and sciatic pain gone.
> 
> The personal trainer in my gym actually says I shouldn't go back to them..... I am doing Bar rows wide grip pulls etc





Papa Lazarou said:


> I don't squat and rarely deadlift - my profile picture is me. I'd like to think so.


What?! Can't be true. Only squats work the quads apparently.


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## dazc (Oct 4, 2009)

have deadlifted twice in all the time ive trained, and i havent squatted for probably 2 years now.

they are functional lifts, if your goal is big muscles they are no more important than anything else. if you goal is big numbers on squat and dead then they are the most important thing going. stating the obvious, but people get too caught up in the mentality that some things are irreplacable, when they arent.

the answer depends on what your training for, and people often forget that!


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## Patsy (Mar 14, 2008)

dazc said:


> have deadlifted twice in all the time ive trained, and i havent squatted for probably 2 years now.
> 
> they are functional lifts, if your goal is big muscles they are no more important than anything else. *if you goal is big numbers on squat and dead then they are the most important thing going*. stating the obvious, but people get too caught up in the mentality that some things are irreplacable, when they arent.
> 
> the answer depends on what your training for, and people often forget that!


Thats a good post and point made there mate, how do you train legs?

Ive moved away from squats now, to be honest i find them quite boring and rather machine assisted methods


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## switch (Jan 5, 2011)

I love squats and deads - I started off hating them, I think if your going to bother going to the gym as long as you have no physical reasons not to do them then you should include them.

Lots of good arguments in this thread and you need to decide what your goals are and go from there.


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## johnny_lee (Jun 15, 2011)

i never used to sqaut but since starting to sqaut on this 5x5 my legs have exploded


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## littlesimon (May 24, 2010)

Interesting thread.

One thing though, I've never heard for example a 250kg+ or 600lb+ squatter/deadlifter say they're underated movements.

In general, I've found most people on forums who don't rate squats/deadlifts are usually not very good at them.

Ask them to post a vid and it kind of becomes apparent why they weren't getting the best out of either movement.

That's just my "general" observation from posts I've seen on various training forums.

I personally rate both movements highly, but each to their own, as long as you're reaching your goals it doesnt really matter.


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## Mighty.Panda (Oct 5, 2011)

stone14 said:


> pedeling is a smaler movement than doing a ful squat, plus if you do it under 15mins like matt furey said should be your aim 500reps in under 15min its very HIT even tho its only your bodyweight, you couldnt do 500reps in under 15min witand not have impressive legs imo lol to have the ability to do this ed, i believe it will defo force your legs to grow,
> 
> will also be a mental and cardio fitness chalenge
> 
> ...


Have to say this stuff does hold a lot of truth I've read about the guy as well its very interesting. You can go from beanpole to extremely strong and built just with bodyweight excercises "but the weight never changes you're only using your bodyweight its only endurance blah blah" - yes sure, I know that and most people with half a brain knows that. But despite this it *does* work and some people do get huge from just doing bodyweight and no one is really sure how, no one really understands it but it does happen. I'm another person who has never squatted in his life its all bodyweight and as stone has said I dare anyone to call 500 hindu squats in 10-15mins a piece of cake its an absolute fvcking beasting on your system....


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

i was paralysed from the waist down in 1996 through an accident i had in the RN, since then (until the last 3months where i have started box squats) i have not been able to do squats or deads at all....i have been able to build up a decent weight for me on rack pulls but cannot do deads or squats.........i have been told that my Quads and Back are 2 of my strongest bodyparts......just look at my Avi picture to show just how big you can build quads without Squats....


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## stone14 (Mar 24, 2005)

Pscarb said:


> i was paralysed from the waist down in 1996 through an accident i had in the RN, since then (until the last 3months where i have started box squats) i have not been able to do squats or deads at all....i have been able to build up a decent weight for me on rack pulls but cannot do deads or squats.........i have been told that my Quads and Back are 2 of my strongest bodyparts......just look at my Avi picture to show just how big you can build quads without Squats....


so there from rack pulls mate, are rack pulls that partial dedlifts? the top half of the lift? i dont want to deadlift or squat no after my back op so this could be a possiblity in time for me if they worked on you.


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## littlesimon (May 24, 2010)

stone14 said:


> so there from rack pulls mate, are rack pulls that partial dedlifts? the top half of the lift? i dont want to deadlift or squat no after my back op so this could be a possiblity in time for me if they worked on you.


Yes they're partials mate, usually from knee level or just under.


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## stone14 (Mar 24, 2005)

Mighty.Panda said:


> Have to say this stuff does hold a lot of truth I've read about the guy as well its very interesting. You can go from beanpole to extremely strong and built just with bodyweight excercises "but the weight never changes you're only using your bodyweight its only endurance blah blah" - yes sure, I know that and most people with half a brain knows that. But despite this it *does* work and some people do get huge from just doing bodyweight and no one is really sure how, no one really understands it but it does happen. I'm another person who has never squatted in his life its all bodyweight and as stone has said I dare anyone to call 500 hindu squats in 10-15mins a piece of cake its an absolute fvcking beasting on your system....


i agree its more to do with time under tension than the actual weight, heavyweight makes youfire up all your muscle fibres so you can do less reps, but less weight more reps more intensity you can still fire up all your fibres as im suire 500hindu squats in 15min will do lol, you cant have that much force in your legs and have beanpoles its impossible lol


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## stone14 (Mar 24, 2005)

littlesimon said:


> Yes they're partials mate, usually from knee level or just under.


cool i thought so, i was doing them a before my injury, just below the knee but fely awuard roling it over my kness everytime lol, can they still work starting just above your knee cap?? wouldnt that be more hams n glutes than quads tho....


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

stone14 said:


> so there from rack pulls mate, are rack pulls that partial dedlifts? the top half of the lift? i dont want to deadlift or squat no after my back op so this could be a possiblity in time for me if they worked on you.


my legs are mainly from Leg press as when i had to swap over after i recovered over a few years i built up to 660kg on the leg press until that started messing with my back (it started messing before that but i was stubborn  ) i do swear by partials though mate (rack pulls) as i cannot do any of the normal bent over exercises to give depth to the back....


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## Big_Idiot (Feb 14, 2012)

Everything works, just some things work better than others.

Are squats & deads better for strength/hypertrophy gains than alternative exercises? IMO it probably depends on the individual.

I believe as long as your stressing the CNS and forcing adaption then it doesnt matter. However i do rate both lifts, and after nearly 6 years of training i have only just managed to do both pain free. It's a good feeling 

So if i suddenly pile on the kg's on all my lifts, and kg's in LBM (combined with diet and some chemicals of course  ) .... then i will say YES they are superior!


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