# DOMS - a different perspective?



## martin brown (Dec 31, 2008)

DOMS - delayed onset muscle soreness. Is it a sign of a good workout?

People are always saying if they cant feel it then they didn't train hard enough. As a strength althlete I have begun to realise things do not need to be pushed to failure to create maximum progress, just like being so sore you cant train again for 6 days may not be a very good thing!

Now, I bet most people don't do lunges in their leg routine. So next time you train legs do 3 sets of 15-20 walking lunges with light dumbells. Then maybe a set of RDL's stood on a platform with excessive ROM - again light weights.

See how bad the DOMS are over the next few days  Even light weights with new movements will create severe DOMS. That's low intensity training.

Then tell me why DOMS are a good indictaion of muscle growth?


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## Suprakill4 (Jul 11, 2008)

Very interesting question and look forward to the responses. I must admit, if i dont have bad doms i dont feel (mentally) as though i have trained hard enough. this could be due to the fact that my chest and tri's are my weakest body barts, which never get bad doms despite different training. My legs are my best bodypart which always get sever doms.


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## SD (Sep 3, 2004)

martin brown said:


> DOMS - delayed onset muscle soreness. Is it a sign of a good workout?
> 
> People are always saying if they cant feel it then they didn't train hard enough. As a strength althlete I have begun to realise things do not need to be pushed to failure to create maximum progress, just like being so sore you cant train again for 6 days may not be a very good thing!
> 
> ...


I can see your point but its actually eccentric training, which loads the muscle very heavily using only a light weight.

SD


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## DS1 (Apr 19, 2010)

I do lundges and zercher squat as i have no room at home for a squat rack. But you aint half right lundges ruin me for 3-4 days after so effects my cardio and calf training.


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## martin brown (Dec 31, 2008)

SD said:


> I can see your point but its actually eccentric training, which loads the muscle very heavily using only a light weight.
> 
> SD


Lol, it's still low intensity  Low % of a 1RM.

What muscle is loaded heavily during a lunge? Where would you expect to feel it?


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## a.notherguy (Nov 17, 2008)

do you think theres a diference between strength and mass training (in terms of whether doms is a good thing or not)?

doing 3 sets of light lunges to failure may cause growth but no increase in strength.

does this imply that doms are good for mass building but counter productive for strength training?


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## martin brown (Dec 31, 2008)

a.notherguy said:


> do you think theres a diference between strength and mass training (in terms of whether doms is a good thing or not)?
> 
> doing 3 sets of light lunges to failure may cause growth but no increase in strength.
> 
> does this imply that doms are good for mass building but counter productive for strength training?


I didn't mention failure with the lunges.

You cant grow without getting stronger can you?


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## a.notherguy (Nov 17, 2008)

martin brown said:


> I didn't mention failure with the lunges.
> 
> You cant grow without getting stronger can you?


no but i thought that you can get stronger without growing


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## martin brown (Dec 31, 2008)

a.notherguy said:


> no but i thought that you can get stronger without growing


Yes I'd agree there. You can get more efficient/skilled at movements that will allow more weight to be lifted without necessarily getting stronger/bigger muscles.


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## SD (Sep 3, 2004)

martin brown said:


> Lol, it's still low intensity  Low % of a 1RM.
> 
> What muscle is loaded heavily during a lunge? Where would you expect to feel it?


\You can overload any muscle if you load it at a mechanical disadvantage. THis is exactly what you are doing with eccentric loading, loading the muscle when it is fully stretched.

YOu would feel that stretch across your quads during a lunge on the rear leg to be specific.

SD


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## Prodiver (Nov 14, 2008)

As far as I recall, DOMS is caused by Arachidonic Acid associated with the satellite cells that mediate hypertrophy.

Repeatedly overloading a muscle over a short time scale depletes the AA, which is why DOMS decreases with exercise, as does the proportional growth.

It appears that, even then, an increased range of movement over the usual or stimulation of the slower twitch muscle fibres by low intensity high rep exercise can still liberate AA, and DOMS can return.


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## martin brown (Dec 31, 2008)

SD said:


> \You can overload any muscle if you load it at a mechanical disadvantage. THis is exactly what you are doing with eccentric loading, loading the muscle when it is fully stretched.
> 
> YOu would feel that stretch across your quads during a lunge on the rear leg to be specific.
> 
> SD


Yet I'd hazard an educated guess that most people would get severe DOMS in the glutes and hamstrings.

Research suggest DOMS are mostly related to new movement patterns. Change your routine and you'll feel it for the first week without pushing it to the extreme.


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## SD (Sep 3, 2004)

martin brown said:


> Yet I'd hazard an educated guess that most people would get severe DOMS in the glutes and hamstrings.
> 
> Research suggest DOMS are mostly related to new movement patterns. Change your routine and you'll feel it for the first week without pushing it to the extreme.


Your right! On the leading leg the hams and glutes are eccentrically loaded also, quad on the back leg.

Research on Doms shows many things but mostly that its indicative of Z-disc damage in the sarcomere of the muscle fibre and that that microtrauma is indicative of muscular hypertrophy.

If following a programme of progressive overload resistance training a little DOMS would be expected throughout your programme unless adaptation overtook the overload.

SD


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## martin brown (Dec 31, 2008)

SD said:


> Your right! On the leading leg the hams and glutes are eccentrically loaded also, quad on the back leg.
> 
> *Research on Doms shows many things but mostly that its indicative of Z-disc damage in the sarcomere of the muscle fibre and that that microtrauma is indicative of muscular hypertrophy.*
> 
> ...


Research also shows the inital response to exercise stress is strengthening of the connective tissues rather than muscle fibres. The body attempts to lay down connective tissue in the pattern of new movement - hence DOMS from any new exercise program.

As your skill increases DOMS decreases. My clients do lunges with heavy weight regulary and do not experience DOMS 

It's good to get differing opinions on these kind of issues


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## SD (Sep 3, 2004)

martin brown said:


> Research also shows the inital response to exercise stress is strengthening of the connective tissues rather than muscle fibres. The body attempts to lay down connective tissue in the pattern of new movement - hence DOMS from any new exercise program.
> 
> As your skill increases DOMS decreases. *My clients do lunges with heavy weight regulary and do not experience DOMS*
> 
> It's good to get differing opinions on these kind of issues


DO they dip the trainling knee until it nearly touches the floor? That will provide the eccentric stress requires (IF) you want to reproduce a DOMS effect.

DOMS isnt pre-requisite to muscualr growth but it is indicative of microtrauma and microtrauma is growth.

There are different types of hypertrophy tho, Sarcoplasmic (sp) and Myofibrillated. Both are beneficial but your clients would be developing more Myo hypertrophy at a guess (assuming they too are PL's).

SD


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## Mikazagreat (Apr 10, 2009)

martin brown said:


> DOMS - delayed onset muscle soreness. Is it a sign of a good workout?
> 
> People are always saying if they cant feel it then they didn't train hard enough. As a strength althlete I have begun to realise things do not need to be pushed to failure to create maximum progress, just like being so sore you cant train again for 6 days may not be a very good thing!
> 
> ...


I never have DOMS untill i do big change in the routine, when routine is same for few weeks i never get them and i mean it NEVER not even in 1 muscle.

in the past 5 years i believe i replaced 15 KG of fats with 15 KG of muscles.


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## SD (Sep 3, 2004)

Mikazagreat said:


> I never have DOMS untill i do big change in the routine, when routine is same for few weeks i never get them and i mean it NEVER not even in 1 muscle.
> 
> in the past 5 years i believe i replaced 15 KG of fats with 15 KG of muscles.


As per my previous post, DOMS is not a Pre-requisite for muscular hypertophy, at least not sarcoplasmic hypertrophy.

If you dont get DOMS then you may either not be emphasising the eccentric (negative) aspect of your lifts or you may not be following a progressive resistance training programme.

Either way its working for you so dont change it, unless you want DOMS that is?

SD


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## martin brown (Dec 31, 2008)

SD said:


> DO they dip the trainling knee until it nearly touches the floor? That will provide the eccentric stress requires (IF) you want to reproduce a DOMS effect.
> 
> DOMS isnt pre-requisite to muscualr growth but it is indicative of microtrauma and microtrauma is growth.
> 
> ...


Yes knee to the floor.

Excessive DOMS is irrelevant to growth - that's why I started this thread. I wanted to hear from people who believe it's impossible to train parts more than once a week due to DOMS.

Another possibility that keeps becoming evident in research is the approach to BB'ing sets/temp (8-12 reps) has some negative effects upon blood flow through muscles - which could also contribute to longer clearance times of waste post training. Training only in the lactate zone does not contribute well to capillary developement - restricting oxygen and nutrient flow to muscle cells.

My clients are mostly fitness trainers, I do also train occasional fighters/MA's and train a group of strongmen/ powerlifters obviously.


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## aeon (Jul 21, 2009)

Good thread Martin, probable for the last 4/5 months i have been trying to use doms as a kind of indicator.

If i go heavy as, 3 sets then i get little doms. Then get stronger over the month. If i train with maybe bit more volume same weight more doms less strength gain, So for me No doms aint really a sign of a good workout.

I like the analogy of digging a hole, you dig to deep - takes longer to " fill in " ie repair = less gains.


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## SD (Sep 3, 2004)

martin brown said:


> Yes knee to the floor.
> 
> *Excessive DOMS is irrelevant to growth - that's why I started this thread. I wanted to hear from people who believe it's impossible to train parts more than once a week due to DOMS*.
> 
> ...


EXcessive DOMS, I thought we were talking about DOMS lol. Well DOMS certainly is not irrelevant to growth but if you had made your mind up on that then this was an odd thread to post?

DOMS is an indicator of microtrauma, microtrauma is indicated for Hypertrophy, ergo DOMS is good for growth! but as I said in previous posts NOT essential.

I hear you on the rep range, lower reps is much more indicated for Myofibrillar Hypertrophy but muscles grow in more than one way, hence why most BBers I know use multiple rep ranges and do incorporate PL work for that reason. I dont know many, if any that train only in 8-12 rep range without some form of variation incorporated into there programme.

SD


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## SD (Sep 3, 2004)

aeon said:


> Good thread Martin, probable for the last 4/5 months i have been trying to use doms as a kind of indicator.
> 
> *If i go heavy as, 3 sets then i get little doms*. Then get stronger over the month. If i train with maybe bit more volume same weight more doms less strength gain, So for me No doms aint really a sign of a good workout.
> 
> I like the analogy of digging a hole, you dig to deep - takes longer to " fill in " ie repair = less gains.


You are a powerlifter yes? this could be because as you go 'heavy as' you are solely focusing on the concentric part of the lift, i;e you power up then drop the weight perhaps?, you need eccentric stimulus only to get DOMS, its the ONLY way it can be achieved, so if you dont lower the weight under control then you get no eccentric therefore no DOMS.

SD


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## aeon (Jul 21, 2009)

SD said:


> You are a powerlifter yes? this could be because as you go 'heavy as' you are solely focusing on the concentric part of the lift, i;e you power up then drop the weight perhaps?, you need eccentric stimulus only to get DOMS, its the ONLY way it can be achieved, so if you dont lower the weight under control then you get no eccentric therefore no DOMS.
> 
> SD


No mate i am not PL'r, my focus when training is on a slow neg 4/5 sec and then explode up.

Just found that when incorporting more volume, resulted in more doms - less gain stregth/hypertrophy.

I usually mix it up either 3 x 10 or 3 x 8 + 1 x 6, on main compounds then keep ass work to 2 or 3 sets. :beer:


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## martin brown (Dec 31, 2008)

SD said:


> EXcessive DOMS, I thought we were talking about DOMS lol. Well DOMS certainly is not irrelevant to growth but if you had made your mind up on that then this was an odd thread to post?
> 
> DOMS is an indicator of microtrauma, microtrauma is indicated for Hypertrophy, ergo DOMS is good for growth! but as I said in previous posts NOT essential.
> 
> ...


My mind isn't made up - I was just looking for other ideas and possible reasons why people prefer to judge progress on not being able to move for a week lol

Like I said before - there is research out there that suggest the initial stage of fibre hypertrophy is a result of connective tissue increase not muscle fibre growth. DOMS is often a result of fascia trauma not muscular on a cellular level.

I suppose that's why the better bodybuilder's are goign for variety - like the 100 rep leg press sets etc. They are ahead of the old fasioned theory of rep ranges as being set in stone. High reps can benefit everyone at some point within their training.

M


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## SD (Sep 3, 2004)

aeon said:


> No mate i am not PL'r, my focus when training is on a slow neg 4/5 sec and then explode up.
> 
> Just found that when incorporting more volume, resulted in more doms - less gain stregth/hypertrophy.
> 
> I usually mix it up either 3 x 10 or 3 x 8 + 1 x 6, on main compounds then keep ass work to 2 or 3 sets. :beer:


Hmm few possible reasons for that, your total work was less or the overload was less or both. Doesn' t matter though lol as you have obviously found something that works for you! :thumbup1:

Mixing up the rep ranges, right down to your 1 rep max on occasion is great for muscle stimulus. I change rep range every two weeks :cool2:

SD


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## aeon (Jul 21, 2009)

SD said:


> Hmm few possible reasons for that, your total work was less or the overload was less or both. Doesn' t matter though lol as you have obviously found something that works for you! :thumbup1:
> 
> Mixing up the rep ranges, right down to your 1 rep max on occasion is great for muscle stimulus. I change rep range every two weeks :cool2:
> 
> SD


Yes i do think for myself, that its down to the total work load being less. But yes this year this is what i have noticed. Other factors such as diet are spot on so i know what is working for me.

I do mix things up through the year and incorp 8 - 12 weeks of stregth work and always get good results from that, but again my diet changes slightly going through that phase.

Just one other thing to add on this topic, a friend started training with us 2/3 months ago. His had been training 3 day split. We train over a 9 day period so every week its diff day for said bodyparts.

He even now gets pretty major doms folloming the same structure as myself, my take on this is that the body is not getting a chance to adapt to a said routine, and is always shocked when trained. Btw though he also is making great gains.

So diff guy, same training, same diet ect yet diff "effect" on body yet end result same.

Do you not think that diet also plays its part in this equation ??


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## SD (Sep 3, 2004)

On DOMS equation or muscle hypertrophy?

Diet is essential for muscle hypertrophy but not sure its really been proven to have an effect on DOMS, though I have experienced less DOMS after eating certain foods but nothing scientific enough to say there was a connection lol.

In theory it shouldn't make a difference what you ate, DOMS is DOMS but I am not so sure....

SD


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## SD (Sep 3, 2004)

It has been proven however that repeated exercise reduces duration and severity of DOMS, so that probably answers th OP's initial question about whether its possible to continue training through it, not only is it possible, its beneficial :thumb:

SD


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## Wee G1436114539 (Oct 6, 2007)

It's irrelevant...a symptom, not an aim.

At one point in my training I squatted and did OL movements several times a day. I also weighed over 125kg. I NEVER got DOMS. I'd suggest this is fairly typical for well conditioned strength athletes, many of whom have as high / higher levels of fat free mass than similarly elite level bodybuilders.

Increasing training load will increase the size of the trainee, whether he / she gets doms or not. Randomly changing movements and emphasizing loaded stretch will increase doms, whether he / she gets bigger or not. I know what I'd rather focus on.


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## aeon (Jul 21, 2009)

SD said:


> On DOMS equation or muscle hypertrophy?
> 
> Diet is essential for muscle hypertrophy but not sure its really been proven to have an effect on DOMS, though *I have experienced less DOMS after eating certain foods* but nothing scientific enough to say there was a connection lol.
> 
> ...


Yes thats what i have also have noticed, that with more red meat in my diet; my recovery / doms is less than times of the year when i taper off my intake. Hmm interesting, but again nothing scientific just what i note.

But also this kind of takes things of topic a bit and into the whole " is a calorie just calorie " thing. Sure diet is essential for hypertrophy, but some foods clearly do indeed provide the trainer with more bang for buck so to say when it comes down to growing/ getting stronger, so my thinking is that yes there are aspect of your diet that play some part in this.

Just mo


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## SD (Sep 3, 2004)

Wee G said:


> It's irrelevant...a symptom, not an aim.


No-one said it was an aim WeeG, it is not however irrelevant as it IS an indicator of microtrauma ergo hypertrophy.

SD


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

AS far as I'm aware there are five theories on DOMS -

Inflammation

Muscle Fibre Damage

Connective Tissue Damage

Lactic Acid Crystal Build up

Protein Remodelling

The lactic acid crystal theory is largely considered outdated but some people still hold it, of the other theories from the studies I've looked at the Protein Remodelling and Inflammation seem the most widely accepted and backed up with evidence... although there's pretty much certainly cross over effects and more than one process that contributes to the DOMS sensation as a whole.

As for it's role in growth, I think a simple observation can demonstrate that the relationship between DOMS and growth isn't strong - DOMS is definitely worse when following a novel exercise or movement pattern, and diminishes with subsequent sessions of the same exercise, yet you don't grow any more spectacularly on the first few sessions than the later ones... if anything growth comes best later when you've nailed the exercise form better and are recruiting your muscle fibre groups more efficiently.


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## hsmann87 (Jun 22, 2010)

V interesting thread.

The way i see it, which is probably a bit cliche, is that if i am sore the next couple of days after i train, i will grow.

However from experimenting with rep ranges, different styles of workouts etc i have found that v low (1-4) rep ranges cause more of a joint soreness. For example when i decline bench with a low rep range, i feel it more in my delt/pec tie in the next few days.

When i train with a more hypertrophy style of training with slightly higher reps (8-12ish) i feel it more in the whole muscle itself. For example when i decline bench with higher reps i feel it in the centre of the pec more i.e. around the nipple area.

I think doms are a good indication of growth and where the growth occurs as where i feel the doms more is generally where i notice growth - this is over a long period of time of course i.e. 4-8 months.

Does DOMS indicate muscle repair is going on? Yes, i think so.

Does DOMS indicate muscle growth? To an extent, yes, but there are a range of variables that lend a hand in muscle growth and/or strength increase (sleep, nutrition, mental state/focus, AAS, training styles, one's own genetics and response to various types of resistance training etc).


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## 2004mark (Oct 26, 2013)

DOMS are a sign of some sort of muscle trauma, so if not to sever should result in muscle growth. However I also believe causing trauma is not the only way to grow muscles. So to Martins original question: yes DOMS are a sign of a good workout, probably a sign that you have pushed your muscles to do something they are not used to doing, but can you have a good workout withough experianceing DOMS, yes.

If I train body parts twice a week I don't get DOMS (well after the first week or two), however since I have been doing a push, pull, legs, shoulder split once a week (for the last 10weeks) I generally do wake up with DOMS, but interestingly I'm steadily feeling them to a lesser and lesser extent every week to a point when I can only feel them when I really tense or stretch the muscle, and they have stopped on certain body parts completely (back and tri's).

I have put this down to my muscles' increasing ability to resist trauma for longer periods of time for a given set of movements.

Using this theory an experienced lifter/bb'er would not experience DOMS from their bread-and-butter lifts as there muscles have become so accustomed to these contractions (as SD has said - specifically the eccentric contraction), unless they were to experience a longer than usual rest period, smash a PB by a significant margin (which just doesn't happen) or attempt different lifts.

Separately I am experience DOMS in my glutes and hams this morning due to doing weighted pullups for the first time last night (I've normally done heavy cable pull downs followed by bodyweight pullups) by grasping a db between my calves and holding them parallel to the floor, which is interestingly a isometric contraction. Will this increase my SLDL, probably not, will it increase my ability to hold a db between my calves, I would imagine so.


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## David Lloyd (Mar 22, 2006)

hsmann87 said:


> V interesting thread.
> 
> *The way i see it, which is probably a bit cliche, is that if i am sore the next couple of days after i train, i will grow.*
> 
> ...


i disagree with this

early on in my training life i decided to work each body part twice a week and was overtraining really badly

i was getting really bad DOMS all the time and for a whole year i did not grow or get any stronger

it was only when i did more research into it that i realised i was over training and was able to cut my routine in half (with less doms) and start growing again


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## MarkFranco (Aug 26, 2010)

Ive never believed doms show a good workout and allways say it doesnt mean anything when people post threads asking why they arnt having doms.

When I squatted 225kg x 3 a pb for me, i wasnt sore in the slightest the next day, i didnt do anything to failure (and hardly ever do) but was that not a good workout? Will I not have grown at all because I wasnt sore the next day? I doubt it made any difference.

DOMS is overrated

BUT yesterday for chest I did, board press, rack lockouts and flyes 3 movements i havent done before or for a very long time and today my chest is feeling slightly sore, I account this to not been used to those movements


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

Seems to me that DOMS is the result of training, just like adaptation and growth is the result of training, but that DOMS and adaptation/growth are themselves seperate things not directly connected to each other... so it's unwise to base effectiveness of training on DOMS.

There's also good science showing that DOMS do not equate to growth. Post training massage, ice washes, stretching all have shown ability to ease DOMS in some people (not everyone) but these things don't ever reduce adaptation to the workout in those where they reduce DOMS.

As supp's go, various things claim to help DOMS and BCAAs and EAAs both have studies showing that they seem to do this noticably in most people who take them around training and at a high enough dose. They don't seem to work significantly enough for everyone though but in the main they do help.

On the otherhad if you like DOMS and think it's vital then just make sure you train dehydrated in a hot environment... you'll get plenty of extra aching to be happy with


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## bigbear21 (Oct 11, 2009)

though it may not be an indication of growth but for a bber its a good physcoligical boost can see it being restrictive for a pwer


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