# Bodybuilding for Mass - Failure!!!



## stevenmcom (Jan 3, 2014)

To give you all some background I have been 'attending' a gym for 4 days a week for about 4 years to help with some overall fat loss. For the last 8 months however I have been attending for 5 days a week with the goal to one day look towards some form of bodybuilding. So in my head I am wanting to put on some serious mass gains.

I have tried many styles of routines over the last many years from low weights with high rep to low rep with high weights. The same goes with diet, low carb vs high fat and vice versa. Everything always logged!

I guess I am after some advice as everywhere just seems to be conflicting information. I see a lot of people ask for stats so here is mine as of now -

79kg (176lbs)

BMR of 1750 calories

5ft 11"

Bench (max 1 rep): 100kg

Deadlift (max 1 rep): 180kg

Squat (max 1 rep): 160kg

I always seem to be able to do well on increasing my weights but never gains in mass. When doing a calorie deficit my weight does plummet. When going over my calories I just gain fat around the mid section (any form of 4 or 6 pack is lost) - going over by 300-400 cals a day.

I am currently on a 5 day 5x5 routine. 1 x back, 1 x chest, 1 x legs, 1 x arms and 1 x shoulders. Again this just seems to be helping strength and not bulk.

Does anyone have any advice for me? I really want to get into some 'big' bodybuilding and yes I know it takes years.

Oh, if you are feeling really helpful. My chest sucks. No matter what it just won't do anything but stay flat.......


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## Ricky12345 (Jun 13, 2012)

Wish I could help mate in the same boat strenght increase no problem but gains in terms off mass don't exist just go through stages off getting fat and thin


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## Sway12 (Oct 29, 2013)

post routine. I am no expert but i think a 1RM of 100kg on the bench after 4 years training isnt ideal...


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## Wallace86 (Jan 20, 2013)

I was 68kgs and struggled to gain mass then bit the 8/8/8/6 routine heavy compounds and I'm now 86kgs I'm now at the stage where I'm doing chest mainly incline, and banana dips (weighted)12x4 heavyish weight,

back I do a 5x5 on Deadlifts or rack pulls,

squats are low reps heavy weight, but everything else again high reps heavy weight ie Extensions, hams, leg press,

Just figure out what works best really but give a 8/8/6 a try on chest incline bench, and do banana dips, or if acces to cables try cable flys, lower, middle, upper targets the chest really well!


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## stevenmcom (Jan 3, 2014)

Have to say that I haven't tried the 8/8/8/6 approach since starting all this seriously, just many moons ago when the gym was just there for me to lose weight.

They do say the best muscle gains come from between 6 and 12 reps so maybe I should drop the 5x5 and get back into this range...?


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## nWo (Mar 25, 2014)

I had the same effect from 5x5 training when I tried it for a couple of months at the end of last year, all strength and hardly any mass gains despite eating to get bigger. Some approaches just don't stimulate mass gains for some people like it would for others.

Been doing Dorian Yates style HIT but on an upper/lower split for a several months now (with deloads in there, obviously) and I'm making great progress in both size and strength.


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## sauceman (Jan 22, 2014)

If you want to put on some mass try slightly higher reps if lower reps are only helping your strength. Try 8 reps minimum on your exercises for a few weeks.


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## gearchange (Mar 19, 2010)

Looking at your lifts there is an imbalance.seems you have a strong back and a weak chest and arms ,you say you only gain in strength ? I would concentrate on the weak areas mate,you are very light for your height.I am sure there is a great deal to add to your upper body.


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## Moonbeam (Jul 20, 2011)

Try other things for the body parts mentioned?? Like cable flies instead of presses?? My chest grew after switching from barbell to cable and concentrate on the contraction and the stretch. Gains is all down to rest and food mate. If you keep changing it up then you may not get anywhere. Stick to what your muscles respond well to and eat clean but big!! The advice is simple science train-eat-sleep-grow

personally I think 5 times a week training is obviously too much for you. Concentrate on eating more and training less!!


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## gearchange (Mar 19, 2010)

Moonbeam said:


> Try other things for the body parts mentioned?? Like cable flies instead of presses?? My chest grew after switching from barbell to cable and concentrate on the contraction and the stretch. Gains is all down to rest and food mate. If you keep changing it up then you may not get anywhere. Stick to what your muscles respond well to and eat clean but big!! The advice is simple science train-eat-sleep-grow
> 
> *personally I think 5 times a week training is obviously too much for you. Concentrate on eating more and training less*!!


This is a very good point.


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## stevenmcom (Jan 3, 2014)

Thanks for the advice guys. My main fear is not training enough. Do you think this is a mind game or is it safe to drop to 4 days a week? It just doesn't seem enough to me to take on bodybuilding, anything less just seems like general gym maintenance that any other person would do..

Here is my current routine -

MONDAY (BACK)

Barbell Deadlift

T Bar Row

Close Grip Front Lat Pulldown

Chin Ups

Cable Seated Row

Weighted Pull Ups

TUESDAY (CHEST)

Barbell Incline Bench Press

Barbell Bench Press

Dumbbell Fly

Weighted Tricep Dips

Dumbbell Pullover on Exercise Ball

Cable Crunch

WEDNESDAY (LEGS)

Barbell Squat

Leg Press

Leg Extensions

Lying Leg Curls

Standing Calf Raises

Hanging Knee Raise

THURSDAY (SHOULDERS)

Barbell Military Press Behind Neck

Dumbbell Bent Over Delt Raise

Dumbbell Shoulder Shrug

Barbell Up Right Row

Dumbbell Lateral Raise

Dumbbell Arnold Press

Cabe Wood Chops

FRIDAY (ARMS)

Barbell Curl

Barbell Close Grip Bench Press

Barbell Concentration Curl

Cable Standing Triceps Extension

Cable Cross Over

Dumbbell Hammer Curl on Exercise Ball

Barbell Reverse Grip Skullcrusher

Exercise Ball Leg Lifts

Air Bike

I normally superset an exercise in each workout and take a minimum of 45 seconds rest....


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## gearchange (Mar 19, 2010)

If you taking your workouts to failure then I would say its to much,a few things need to be swapped around to take advantage of muscle groups..If your in doubt as to whether bbing works with less days go and have a look at @Pscarb's 3 day split and see what kind of physique he has achieved .


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## Sway12 (Oct 29, 2013)

That is way too much for shoulders man. Where do you train in Bath btw out of interest?


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## andyhuggins (Nov 21, 2008)

Too much volume imo.


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## IGotTekkers (Jun 6, 2012)

stevenmcom said:


> Thanks for the advice guys. My main fear is not training enough. Do you think this is a mind game or is it safe to drop to 4 days a week? It just doesn't seem enough to me to take on bodybuilding, anything less just seems like general gym maintenance that any other person would do..
> 
> Here is my current routine -
> 
> ...


**** me that's why lol. Too much volume I'd say. Go heavy, 3 excersizes with 3 sets per muscle. Push pull legs. So 3x per week. And eat alot more food. You will grow.


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## IGotTekkers (Jun 6, 2012)

Push-

Bench/dumbell press

Incline smith

cable fly

Dumbell shoulder press

Barbel/smith shoulder press

Then smash your triceps with a mix of weight/volume/attachments on the cable.

Pull-

T bar/seated row

Pullups/Pulldown

Bent over rows

Dumbell curl

E bar curl

Preacher curls.

Legs

Squats

Leg Press

Extentions.

Could do a 4th day for Deadlifts with shrugs and lateral raises.

That with plenty of food and you will grow. If you still don't grow then eat more


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## Sway12 (Oct 29, 2013)

IGotTekkers said:


> Push-
> 
> Bench/dumbell press
> 
> ...


1x a week frequency though.... maybe not enough?


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## George-Bean (Sep 8, 2010)

I am in my third year, got rid of the lard and am doing what you would probably call "My fist bulk". This is what I am doing as my primary, I highly recommend reading the article and giving it some thought.

http://www.t-nation.com/training/185-rep-squat-workout

I do my other body parts each time I can walk again lol.


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## stevenmcom (Jan 3, 2014)

Sway12 said:


> That is way too much for shoulders man. Where do you train in Bath btw out of interest?


I actually live just outside of Bath in a place called Frome. Local gym there...


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## stevenmcom (Jan 3, 2014)

So if I were to bring this down to 3 days a week for the 'big' routines (back, legs, chest), would it be worthwhile to do two short cardio based sessions on the in between days (Tuesday & Thursday) to ensure no fat build up with the extra cals...?


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## DaveW3000 (Mar 25, 2013)

stevenmcom said:


> So if I were to bring this down to 3 days a week for the 'big' routines (back, legs, chest), would it be worthwhile to do two short cardio based sessions on the in between days (Tuesday & Thursday) to ensure no fat build up with the extra cals...?


Nothing wrong with cardio but if it brings you out of a calorie surplus then even with a routine change you'll be back to square one.


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## IGotTekkers (Jun 6, 2012)

Sway12 said:


> 1x a week frequency though.... maybe not enough?


1x per week is plenty mate


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## IGotTekkers (Jun 6, 2012)

stevenmcom said:


> So if I were to bring this down to 3 days a week for the 'big' routines (back, legs, chest), would it be worthwhile to do two short cardio based sessions on the in between days (Tuesday & Thursday) to ensure no fat build up with the extra cals...?


The more cardio you do the more food you will need to grow.


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## stevenmcom (Jan 3, 2014)

OK guys I spent the early hours of this morning re-doing a 4 day routine, which gives me Wednesday/Saturday/Sunday off. I hit the gym this morning for my first new session. Here is what I have cut my chest (with tricep) day down to...

Barbell Incline Bench Press (1 warm up, 4x8)

Barbell Bench Press (1 warm up, 4x8)

Cable Cross Over (1 warm up, 4x8)

Cable Rope Triceps Pushdown (4x8)

Barbell Close Grip Bench Press (4x8)

Cable Crunch (4x20)

So as it now stands I no longer have a 'just arms' day, this is the day I cut out completely. So as above, two tricep only sets on a chest day and on back day I have 2 bicep only sets. Each day of the 4 day routine I do one abs only set at the end. Hopefully you can see that the above has been cut down a lot when compared to my previous chest day that had easily 6 chest exercises.

Now here is my new BIG question... On my previous routine I would sweat, I would feel exhausted. Today when I did the above new chest routine I did not sweat. However, my chest felt like concrete afterwards and still does now 3 hours later. Before anyone jumps in and says I didn't do it to my max intensity or whatever I can only say I did. I pushed that last 8th rep out on each set where I could feel muscles burning, on some form was lost to get other muscles into the mix just to push weights back up where the main muscle had hit failure. So here is the question, with the less volume do you guys find it less exhausting (sweating, panting) and more muscle failure tension???


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## Sway12 (Oct 29, 2013)

IGotTekkers said:


> 1x per week is plenty mate


if your on tech maybe... muscles stop growing after 72 hours ish yet your leaving it ages before it gets hit again.


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## IGotTekkers (Jun 6, 2012)

Sway12 said:


> if your on tech maybe... muscles stop growing after 72 hours ish yet your leaving it ages before it gets hit again.


Lol what?? Please link to valid research. I'm interested to see that.

Btw I'm not on gear, and I train 1 x per week. As do many many many naturals that I know.


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## Sway12 (Oct 29, 2013)

IGotTekkers said:


> Lol what?? Please link to valid research. I'm interested to see that.
> 
> Btw I'm not on gear, and I train 1 x per week. As do many many many naturals that I know.


Hundreds of articles and threads online as well as scientific research backing it elsewhere but this is the first one that came up.

http://www.muscleandstrength.com/articles/protein-synthesis-muscle-growth-training-frequency

Personally im still too much of a newbie to know what really works and what doesn't. I see better transformations from guys doing splits as opposed to full body workouts, but from a scientific perspective it's hard to argue the research.


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## DaveW3000 (Mar 25, 2013)

@IGotTekkers You follow Jason Blaha on youtube don't you? Hes gone into training frequency in quite some depth.


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## IGotTekkers (Jun 6, 2012)

DaveW3000 said:


> @IGotTekkers You follow Jason Blaha on youtube don't you? Hes gone into training frequency in quite some depth.


Yeah we are pals mate, but we disagree on a fair few topics lol. He is more power lifting than bb. I know he has written quite a few training programs which are very effective. Don't get me wrong there's nothing wrong with training high volume or the same muscle group more than once a week, but that's not to say it's more effective. Most can and will grow just fine training each muscle once per week.


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## DaveW3000 (Mar 25, 2013)

IGotTekkers said:


> Yeah we are pals mate, but we disagree on a fair few topics lol. He is more power lifting than bb. I know he has written quite a few training programs which are very effective. Don't get me wrong there's nothing wrong with training high volume or the same muscle group more than once a week, but that's not to say it's more effective. Most can and will grow just fine training each muscle once per week.


Yeah its definitely an individual thing! Gotta find what works best for you.

I will say though that from an unassisted point of view I 'found' that training body parts multiple times per week gave me the best progress. I do believe that being assisted blurs that line and means the frequency is less important.

Again tho it does take time to find out what style suits you.


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

Sway12 said:


> Hundreds of articles and threads online as well as scientific research backing it elsewhere but this is the first one that came up.
> 
> http://www.muscleandstrength.com/articles/protein-synthesis-muscle-growth-training-frequency
> 
> Personally im still too much of a newbie to know what really works and what doesn't. I see better transformations from guys doing splits as opposed to full body workouts, but from a scientific perspective it's hard to argue the research.


a lot of things can affect Protein Synthesis it certainly is not a simple black and white subject......for those who think they cannot grow on a 3 day week training system come train with me


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## Sway12 (Oct 29, 2013)

Pscarb said:


> a lot of things can affect Protein Synthesis it certainly is not a simple black and white subject......for those who think they cannot grow on a 3 day week training system come train with me


haha well It's not about how many days per week spent training, it's about how many times you hit each muscle per week.

So the theory is that for a non-assisted person looking to build mass, higher frequency is preferable.. thats what I've been told / read. (Especially for someone with less than half a years lifting experience like me, not the OP though maybe...)

So on a body part split you might be in the gym 5 days a week but you only hit back once / triceps once directly etc. Whereas on a fullbody you Row 3x a week, bench twice a week, Squat 3x a week, hit Triceps 3x a week.

Personally I would love to do a routine with 1x a week frequency, but if its' going to slow my gains then I simply wont do it.


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## Mingster (Mar 25, 2011)

Training body parts once a week has worked for me and most people I've trained with over the years. That's not to say some people can't gain on multiple times a week training. The bottom line is that it's effort put into the sessions that produces results, and the more sessions there are the more difficult achieving that level of effort becomes.


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## Sway12 (Oct 29, 2013)

haha thought you might pop up @Mingster . Yeah i just realized ive hijacked the thread talking about this again, so forget it, sorry OP. Whats pscarbs routine out of interest?


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

Sway12 said:


> haha well It's not about how many days per week spent training, it's about how many times you hit each muscle per week.
> 
> So the theory is that for a non-assisted person looking to build mass, higher frequency is preferable.. thats what I've been told / read. (Especially for someone with less than half a years lifting experience like me, not the OP though maybe...)
> 
> ...


i coach natural guys and girls and they certainly grow and even prep on 3 day or 4 day routines.....in my 25yrs in this game one thing is true....Nothing fits and can be applied to everyone.


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## Mingster (Mar 25, 2011)

Metal music and beards are best for mass


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## Sway12 (Oct 29, 2013)

@Pscarb can you post an example routine by any chance? interested to see your take, presumably pretty high volume cos its only once a week per muscle?


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## stevenmcom (Jan 3, 2014)

Pscarb said:


> i coach natural guys and girls and they certainly grow and even prep on 3 day or 4 day routines.....in my 25yrs in this game one thing is true....Nothing fits and can be applied to everyone.


I would be interested to know if your 3 day a week is full body or split.

Have been necking oats like no tomorrow today to get the cals up above 3200. If I put on too much fat then I blame you all LOL

Thanks for the help and advice again guys!


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## Sway12 (Oct 29, 2013)

stevenmcom said:


> I would be interested to know if your 3 day a week is full body or split.
> 
> Have been necking oats like no tomorrow today to get the cals up above 3200. If I put on too much fat then I blame you all LOL
> 
> Thanks for the help and advice again guys!


Just make a shake to get an easy 1200 cals in

2 scoops oats

2 scoops whey

2 tablespoons peanut butter

1 tablespoon honey

500ml milk

1 tablespoon cocoa powder for taste

1 tablespoon olive oil


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

i have 3 different 3 days routines that i have used and i use with my clients...

all of them are M/W/F

Push - Chest/Shoulders/Triceps

Legs - Quads/Hams/Calf's

Pull - Back/Biceps/Traps

the next one is a strange one where you train legs every wednesday but you train shoulders and arms together once every 9 days and you train chest/back twice in between the shoulder workouts, on some weeks training chest/back was trained twice in 4 days (Friday then Monday)

my current routine i train the whole body 3 times a week using both Load and Pump techniques......


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## stevenmcom (Jan 3, 2014)

Well unlike last week where I woke up feeling sore in the chest from the previous days workout, today I am not sore. Is this a sign that for MY body, volume (lots of exercises in one workout) works best???


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

Muscle soreness as no real indication of anything really, they do not signify you worked harder or you are growing....


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## Sway12 (Oct 29, 2013)

Pscarb said:


> i have 3 different 3 days routines that i have used and i use with my clients...
> 
> all of them are M/W/F
> 
> ...


PScarb, what kinds of sets/reps do you get them to use? The devil is in the details. Not asking you to give away your training secrets or anything but just an indication.

Here is an example routine from bodybuilding.com that has proved very popular, but the OP recommends it be done *6 times a week. P/P/L/REST/P/P/L*

*Push (Chest/Triceps/Shoulders):*

Flat Barbell Bench Press: 3x5

Seated (or Standing) Barbell Shoulder/Overhead Press: 3x5

Incline Barbell Bench Press: 3x5

Dumbbell Side Lateral Raise: 3x10-12

Rope Pushdowns (circuit machine): 3x10-12

Overhead Dumbbell Extension or similar triceps exercise: 3x10-12

Shrugs(circuit machine or dumbbells): 3x10-12

*Pull (Back/Biceps):*

Barbell Rows: 3x5

Lat Pulldowns with (Long Bar or V-bar) (circuit machine): 3x8-10

Seated Rows (circuit machine) - optional if already doing barbell rows: 3x8-10

Face-pulls: 3x-10-12

Barbell Bicep Curls (Alternate between close and normal grip): 4x-10-12

Choice of one other bicep exercise (typically Hammer Curls): 3x10-12

*Legs (Quad/Ham/Calves):*

*
*

Barbell Squats: 4x5-6

Leg Press (optional if already doing above squats): 3x8-10

Leg Extensions (circuit machine): 3x10-12

Hamstring Curls (circuit machine): 3x10-12

Standing Calf Raises (circuit machine): 5x10-12


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## 36-26 (Jun 30, 2009)

Why are people so hung up on the hitting muscles more than once a week lately? The difference is so negligible it's not worth worrying about. You only have to look at all the people who built fantastic physiques both unassisted and assisted on once a week routines to see it makes little difference.

In unassisted guys especially the far more important thing is progressive overload over time and whatever way you prefer training will usually mean you'll train harder and so will progress.


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## Sway12 (Oct 29, 2013)

36-26 said:


> Why are people so hung up on the hitting muscles more than once a week lately? The difference is so negligible it's not worth worrying about. You only have to look at all the people who built fantastic physiques both unassisted and assisted on once a week routines to see it makes little difference.
> 
> In unassisted guys especially the far more important thing is progressive overload over time and whatever way you prefer training will usually mean you'll train harder and so will progress.


http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-gain/training-frequency-for-mass-gains.html


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## KRSOne (Jul 31, 2011)

stevenmcom said:


> To give you all some background I have been 'attending' a gym for 4 days a week for about 4 years to help with some overall fat loss. For the last 8 months however I have been attending for 5 days a week with the goal to one day look towards some form of bodybuilding. So in my head I am wanting to put on some serious mass gains.
> 
> I have tried many styles of routines over the last many years from low weights with high rep to low rep with high weights. The same goes with diet, low carb vs high fat and vice versa. Everything always logged!
> 
> ...


look at mingsters routine. Cut your training back to push pull legs. mon wed fri and take weekend off.

eat more and train less really works in my favour and there is plenty of literature to support it!

stick to like 15 sets per workout. all based around compound exercises, should do you some good!


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## stevenmcom (Jan 3, 2014)

Well as an update, today was BACK day with the less volume approach but reps up to 8 rather than 5. Definitely feeling the workout as opposed to yesterday's chest day. So will see how this goes with the increased cals....


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## 36-26 (Jun 30, 2009)

Sway12 said:


> http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-gain/training-frequency-for-mass-gains.html


As I said I care little about one article. You'll find studies to prove anything you want in this game. My point was both work, do which you prefer.

If you train twice a week volume has to be lowered so less protein synthesis stimulated, but you stimulate it twice, if you train once you will have higher volume so more protein synthesis but stimulated once in the week so IMO net result is the same or at least very close hence why people grow in both scenarios.


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## Sway12 (Oct 29, 2013)

36-26 said:


> As I said I care little about one article. You'll find studies to prove anything you want in this game. My point was both work, do which you prefer.
> 
> If you train twice a week volume has to be lowered so less protein synthesis stimulated, but you stimulate it twice, if you train once you will have higher volume so more protein synthesis but stimulated once in the week so IMO net result is the same or at least very close hence why people grow in both scenarios.


It's not one website man, it's many, MANY articles online. Layne Norton wrote about it while talking about WHY he wrote PHAT, because the advice of training body parts once a week never served him and his legs were small compared to his competition until he started squatting more frequently with heavy weight.

http://www.simplyshredded.com/mega-feature-layne-norton-training-series-full-powerhypertrophy-routine-updated-2011.html


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## Charlee Scene (Jul 6, 2010)

Mate pscarb and mingster know what there talking about, stop dismissing what there saying about frequency because you have read a few articles, like they say its not black and white, not having a go btw lol just my 2 cents, personally I grow on each group once a week but that's not to say two doesnt work, but it's not as simple as saying one is definitely better


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## mamrdek44 (Apr 19, 2014)

Bump really looking forward to see your results with 3 days routine. I have exactly same problem as you have + I am lifting 3 years and my bench and squat is same as yours. Doing 5 days a week routine atm


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## stevenmcom (Jan 3, 2014)

Well I have taken it down to 4 days and using a Push/Pull routine rather than one muscle group per session as it were.

So the Monday and Tuesday are the lower rep (8) go heavy days and Thursday and Friday as the higher rep (18) lighter days - to try and kick start some true hypertrophy.

Will report back soon....


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