# Sleep



## r1234 (Jun 16, 2012)

Any one got any advice on sleep aids?

Ive tried melatonin but doesn't seam to do much, I also can't take anything which would show on a recreational blood drug test due to being tested at work.

i am doing shifts and struggling to change over getting on average 5 hours broken sleep a day.


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## Abc987 (Sep 26, 2013)

r1234 said:


> Any one got any advice on sleep aids?
> 
> Ive tried melatonin but doesn't seam to do much, I also can't take anything which would show on a recreational blood drug test due to being tested at work.
> 
> i am doing shifts and struggling to change over getting on average 5 hours broken sleep a day.


 I tried Zopiclone the other day as im struggling also and that s**t knocked me out. No dreams, no getting up for a piss, nothing. Don't know if it's addictive though or something you become reliant on.

The otc sleep aids in boots aren't bad. I have to take 2 though as the suggested dose of one didn't help


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## r1234 (Jun 16, 2012)

I've heard they are good, if I could get a good sleep the first shift it would set me up for the week. As it is I'm not getting that and feeling like I'm grinding through the week going through the motions in work and the gym with no motivation.

Unfortunatly I think zopis would show in a urine test so unless the doc prescribed them too me I would be unable to use them. May be worth booking an appointment.


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## Jonk891 (Dec 17, 2016)

Have you tried blocking light and sound out. I know its difficult to sleep after nights I used to do shifts and 6 nights a week I used mitrazipine 45mg but wouldn't recommend them to anyone. There are a few things you can try such a nytol maybe give the herbal one a try first


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## TinTin10 (Nov 22, 2016)

Melatonin from the US sorted my sleep issues out


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

You can try Ashwaganda Root Extract - it's decent at reducing cortisol levels so, when taken before bed, it can help you fall to sleep quicker and more heavily. I'd take at least 2000mg. 1000-2000mg of Magnesium glcyinate can also help.

Shift work is pain for sleep though - it really screws the circadian rhythm. You might want to look at environmental stuff too like avoiding blue light in the hours before you want to sleep and switching devices like computers and your phone to red light settings (you can download apps to do it if your devices don't have the setting built in). Making sure your sleeping area is cooler than the day time temp is also helpful. You can even try listening to 'sleep frequency' music/sounds - those set at delta (<3.5Hz) or theta (4-8Hz) frequencies work best.


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## Lifesizepenguin (Jul 25, 2016)

Abc987 said:


> I tried Zopiclone the other day as im struggling also and that s**t knocked me out. No dreams, no getting up for a piss, nothing. Don't know if it's addictive though or something you become reliant on.
> 
> The otc sleep aids in boots aren't bad. I have to take 2 though as the suggested dose of one didn't help


 it is addictive.


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## NoGutsNoGloryy (Jan 7, 2013)

go to tesco and ask for the tesco brand sleep aids. It's the original anti histamine benadryl you can get 25 or 50mg strength ones. Like hour and a half after taking I am out like a switch and I stay asleep to.


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## The Last Time (Mar 22, 2012)

Ive worked continental shifts for 18 months now. Did 3 years of permanent nights before that.

I went through phases where I couldn't sleep and took tablets etc but they're not long term solutions as you don't want to become dependent on them.

Get a blackout blind or an eye mask. I use the latter and love mine. Sleep with ear plugs in. Take 3 ZMA half an hour before bed. I sleep like a baby now day or night.

I'm sure most of it's in your head. You start telling yourself you're not gonna sleep. So you can't sleep.

Once you break the "can't sleep" cycle you will be fine again. Good luck!


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## Alan-82 (Apr 9, 2018)

Instead of buying expensive zma products, buy a tub of zinc, and a tub of magnesium from Holland and barrret, about 6-8 pound each, that's about 2 months worth, it says one a day, but I take 2 of each before bed, seriously knocks me out, sleep like a baby, and wake up with a massive Bonner every morning! It seems hard to get out of bed, sleep so well , but when your up and about, you feel like skipping about


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## Bobgow (Mar 25, 2018)

I've never slept properly for years. Really wipes me out.

I've tried all OTC products and I'm yet to find one that works. I look forward to the weekend so I can have a few beers to knock me out and get a half decent sleep. Are zopiclone available to buy or script only?


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## bexwell (Dec 28, 2015)

r1234 said:


> Any one got any advice on sleep aids?
> 
> Ive tried melatonin but doesn't seam to do much, I also can't take anything which would show on a recreational blood drug test due to being tested at work.
> 
> i am doing shifts and struggling to change over getting on average 5 hours broken sleep a day.


 Are you a heavy drinker? Alcohol gives me terrible insomnia, it makes me fall asleep but wake up a couple of hours later unable to get back to sleep.


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## 66983 (May 30, 2016)

As someone who's actually not only used melatonin to aid sleep, but also recommended it,

it now seems studies are showing that the use of melatonin and sleep aids prevent the body from reaching stage 4 REM sleep.

An excerpt from Stan Efferding's vertical diet book 2.0.

SLEEP AIDS:
Melatonin has not been shown to be beneficial for regular sleep and may actually
cause drowsiness upon waking. It has been shown to be helpful for resetting
circadian rhythms when traveling to minimize jet lag.
Prescription sleep aids often prevent you from entering REM and Stage 4 sleep. I
don't recommend sleep aids or prescriptions.
*Dr Stasha Gominak MD, Neurologist and sleep specialist has some fascinating
articles on her website: DrGominak.com
This interview with Dr Gominak on High Intensity Health is packed with great
information including sleeps effects on Gut Health, Repairing chronic diseases,
child development, behavioral disorders and much more:
Dr Gominak - High Intensity Health YouTube.


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## monkeybiker (Jul 21, 2010)

bexwell said:


> Are you a heavy drinker? Alcohol gives me terrible insomnia, it makes me fall asleep but wake up a couple of hours later unable to get back to sleep.


 I get that. If I have been drinking a few days in a row my sleep us terrible. It helps if you drink plenty of water as I find I wake up thirsty.


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## Abc987 (Sep 26, 2013)

I've been back off my hols for a week today and sleep is bolloxed again

4 days into holiday, drinking ed all day and night, eating all day and night and no worries I was sleeping like a baby again and going right through!

Back home and sleep is shot to bits once again! I've tried switching beds with no joy also. f**k knows why as Work is very slow and quiet atm.

@dtlv does sleep have anything to do with less cals?

I'm putting it down to having nothing on my mind whilst away and the drinking loads but just wondering if the fact that I was constantly full and now home im cutting back the extra weight gained it might have something to do with lack of cals also?

Fyi before bed I have a 2 scoops of protein and a heaped tablespoon of peanut butter so the fat should see me ok?


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

I'm only taking a guess but I'd say you slept well on holiday because you were relaxed, unstressed, and also enjoying a nice bit of drinking. Now you are back home you have the stressors that didn't help you sleep before.

As for the sleep issues back home it could possibly be related to increased stress hormones from cutting - calorie deficit means more cortisol, more cortisol equals greater wakefulness.

The pre-bed feed is fine and shouldn't be a problem, although maybe you are giving yourself a little too much energy just at the time your body doesn't want to be ramped up but wants to relax. Perhaps try a little experiment and move the protein and peanut butter an hour or two earlier and see if that makes a difference.

You could also maybe try a little experiment with one or more of the many OTC supplements that can sometimes help a little with sleep. I can give you a little list of possibilities if you are interested?


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## Abc987 (Sep 26, 2013)

dtlv said:


> I'm only taking a guess but I'd say you slept well on holiday because you were relaxed, unstressed, and also enjoying a nice bit of drinking. Now you are back home you have the stressors that didn't help you sleep before.
> 
> As for the sleep issues back home it could possibly be related to increased stress hormones from cutting - calorie deficit means more cortisol, more cortisol equals greater wakefulness.
> 
> ...


 Morning mate, thanks for the quick and early reply and tbh I think the same. The fact I literally did nothing for 10 days apart from eat and drinks loads, sitting round a pool listening to music or reading and occasionally getting in it with nothing on my mind at all is probably what sorted it

thing is before my hols I was very stressed with work, it was mental. But the hard work is done now and I've came back to it being very relaxed so no stress at all. I thought it may of been our bed or pillows as they're getting on now so switched to the spare room but that didn't help.

The protein and peanut butter I've had for years and it's never caused a problem before.

Just FYI it's not getting to sleep that's the problem it's staying a sleep. I'm out virtually straight away but I wake loads through the night and am up much earlier atm than I should be and knackered

i think I've tried most otc stuff but any suggestions will help as there may be something I haven't tried

I used zopiclone a few times before my hols which worked a treat but don't really want to go that route unless I really have too!

Cheers

whats your opinion on zma? Haven't tried that in a while and it's dirt cheap!


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

Abc987 said:


> Morning mate, thanks for the quick and early reply and tbh I think the same. The fact I literally did nothing for 10 days apart from eat and drinks loads, sitting round a pool listening to music or reading and occasionally getting in it with nothing on my mind at all is probably what sorted it
> 
> thing is before my hols I was very stressed with work, it was mental. But the hard work is done now and I've came back to it being very relaxed so no stress at all. I thought it may of been our bed or pillows as they're getting on now so switched to the spare room but that didn't help.
> 
> ...


 ZMA is a decent supp but not really for the purpose it was intended as a test booster. I've written a lot on that before and won't repeat, but for the purposes of helping sleep there may be some merit to it because each ingredient can play a role in helping but depending on which aspect of your sleep is insufficient (REM sleep or deep sleep) iZMA as a whole might actually hinder you.

Here's a rundown of how each individual ingredient can affect the sleep/relaxation process:

Firstly the magnesium. Mg is a mineral that functions as a calcium channel blocker, which means that it plays an important role in maintaining efficient nerve function preventing nerves from over-firing. This means that a magnesium deficiency, or even just sub-optimal magnesium intake, can leave muscles a little bit twitchy, fidgety, and harder to relax. A calcium channel blocker insufficiency therefore can certainly mean that people can find it hard to relax and sleep or stay asleep. The Mg in ZMA is of sufficient dose to help in that regard.

Secondly, the Zinc. Zn can help relaxation as it functions to limit cortisol secretion. Zinc insufficiency means higher cortisol and lower testosterone, so keeping zinc levels at optimal can prevent cortisol from rising a little too high and promoting excess wakefulness.

Finally in ZMA both the Mg and the Zn are chelated (chemically bound to) aspartate. Aspartate is the salt of aspartic acid which is a non-essential amino acid involved in protein synthesis, but also in neurotransmission where it works in antagonism with glycine (which basically does the opposite) as an excitory neurotransmitter stimulating activity in the spinal column and also in the pineal gland in the brain. It's this pineal gland stimulation caused by the aspartic acid in ZMA that gives the deep sleep and funky dreams that people often experience with ZMA. The catch though is that although sleep with ZMA is deeper because of this and often longer, the extra stimualtion of the pineal gland changes the brainwave cycle during sleep increasing delta wave sleep, but at the expense of some REM sleep. This imbalance can lead to more sleeping, but can also make it harder to wake up afterwards and make the sleep not so refreshing because to be refreshed you need a good balance of REM and deep sleep (delta sleep).

So if you need more deep sleep, and are suboptimal in zinc and magnesium then ZMA might be just the ticket. If your mineral intake is good however and it's REM sleep that you are missing then it'll just make you more groggy and more tired in the morning.

If lack of REM sleep is an issue (which it might well be for you as a symptom of poor REM sleep is frequent waking up) then definitely avoid the ZMA (although taking zinc and magnesium as individual supplements just not bound to aspartic acid salts may still be an excellent idea). B vitamin supplements (for the B6) and 5-HTP are also good for helping the brain get into REM sleep.

Also important for both REM sleep and staying asleep in general is temperature - neither too hot nor too cold. Ideally temperature should be a little on the cool side without being chilly, as the sleep cycle depends upon a drop in body temp for optimal sleep and sleep cycling of brainwaves. There's been a lot of research on that and the optimal range for most people is between 64 and 68 degrees F (18 and 20 degrees C).

Lastly make sure your mattress, pillows and bed covers are comfortable. It sounds obvious, but an uncomfortable bed can have you waking briefly multiple times during the night and, even if each time you fall back to sleep quickly, it can be enough to make your sleep not restful enough.


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## geeby112 (Mar 15, 2008)

Abc987 said:


> I tried Zopiclone the other day as im struggling also and that s**t knocked me out. No dreams, no getting up for a piss, nothing. Don't know if it's addictive though or something you become reliant on.
> 
> The otc sleep aids in boots aren't bad. I have to take 2 though as the suggested dose of one didn't help


 Was it a full 7.5mg dose or did you half it?


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## Abc987 (Sep 26, 2013)

geeby112 said:


> Was it a full 7.5mg dose or did you half it?


 7.5mg mate. I've just ordered some more to use sparingly and next time will try half a tab


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## geeby112 (Mar 15, 2008)

Abc987 said:


> 7.5mg mate. I've just ordered some more to use sparingly and next time will try half a tab


 I have a half tab and knocks me out. Just don't like that strange taste it leaves in your mouth.


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## Abc987 (Sep 26, 2013)

geeby112 said:


> I have a half tab and knocks me out. Just don't like that strange taste it leaves in your mouth.


 Someone said wrap in a rizla and bomb it like you would mdma. Not had one since to try


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