# BIG without roids ??



## Canvas (Dec 2, 2008)

only been in the lifting world now for 9 months . i see some blokes in the gym and i think mg: what a animal .. then after talking to them they always end up being on roids my Q is can you get BIG without roids , if so lets see some examples as my hopes for the natty trainer are a little shattered today


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## robisco11 (Dec 8, 2007)

What do you classify as BIG? Your question is a bit too vague...your never going to be 250+lbs, lean and ripped naturally....if thats any good to you


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## 1bpk (Jun 22, 2009)

You can, but you can't get as big as possible without the use roids, of course.


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## TaintedSoul (May 16, 2007)

Bigger than the average guy... easily.

Freakishly big.. not a chance unless you a genetic freak or sort!!


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## Flexboy23 (Jan 11, 2009)

Check out Andrew Merrifield "MEZZA" perfect example of what sort of size the best natural bodybuilders can get too.


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## dudz (Oct 27, 2008)

IFBB Pro Jeff Willet


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## 1bpk (Jun 22, 2009)

What's the name of that kid who's been working out since he was like 10 or somethng like that?

He's big for a natural


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## TaintedSoul (May 16, 2007)

dudz said:


> IFBB Pro Jeff Willet


But he's not natural


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## MaKaVeLi (Aug 12, 2008)

dudz said:


> IFBB Pro Jeff Willet


I don't believe he's natural.


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## robisco11 (Dec 8, 2007)

not a chance he is!!


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## TaintedSoul (May 16, 2007)

Compare him to Andrew Merrifield.


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## dudz (Oct 27, 2008)

TaintedSoul said:


> But he's not natural


He's in that I wanna look like that guy documentary proclaiming to be a natty, lol...


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## TaintedSoul (May 16, 2007)

I'll say one thing if this is 100% natural from the day he started gym... much respect. Very impressive results.


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## THE-BEAST (Sep 11, 2009)

hi mate, yeah it depends on gene's mate but i have seen one man down the gym who says he's a natural competion bb but hhmmm.... wud you really believe them anyway?


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## Canvas (Dec 2, 2008)

sorry i suppose by big i mean big for your hight . like me i know i'll never be HUGE im 5ft 8 20yrs old and 11 stone last year i was just over 9st( i never used to eat much ) i dont know what a realistc goal is for me by the time im 25 im thinking 14st roid free ?. so yeah i suppose by big i mean just so standing next to joe bloges of the same hight you look big


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## robisco11 (Dec 8, 2007)

Canvas said:


> sorry i suppose by big i mean big for your hight .* like me i know i'll never be HUGE* im 5ft 8 20yrs old and 11 stone last year i was just over 9st( i never used to eat much ) i dont know what a realistc goal is for me by the time im 25 im thinking 14st roid free ?. so yeah i suppose by big i mean just so standing next to joe bloges of the same hight you look big


Saying that.....no...you wont get big, believe it and you can do!


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## BigDom86 (Jul 27, 2008)

you can get big yes. there are a few top level examples jeff willet (i believe he is if you watch some of his dvds and not just look at airbrushed pictures), jim cordova, rob hope, godfrey onyac is a new guy who just turned pro natural, michael lockett (apparently). the list goes on. HOWEVER you are never going to know if they are true natural or not


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## Andy Dee (Jun 1, 2008)

robisco11 said:


> Saying that.....no...you wont get big, believe it and you can do!


Having belief and whats physically possible doesn't really make any difference.

It doesnt matter how much i believe how big i will be without gear, what i believe wont make that desicion for me, only my genetics and what my body will allow me to naturally carry however will.

I think it depends on how big your bodies natural state was before you started training, which yet again comes down to genetics and build type.


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## TaintedSoul (May 16, 2007)

Canvas said:


> sorry i suppose by big i mean big for your hight . *like me i know i'll never be HUGE* im 5ft 8 20yrs old and 11 stone last year i was just over 9st( i never used to eat much ) i dont know what a realistc goal is for me by the time im 25 im thinking 14st roid free ?. so yeah i suppose by big i mean just so standing next to joe bloges of the same hight you look big


As pointed out your attitude already has you defeated!!!

But at 5"8 you not a tall guy so there is no reason you cant get big enough to look good for your height.


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## robisco11 (Dec 8, 2007)

andysutils said:


> Having belief and whats physically possible doesn't really make any difference.
> 
> It doesnt matter how much i believe how big i will be without gear, what i believe wont make that desicion for me, only my genetics and what my body will allow me to naturally carry however will.
> 
> I think it depends on how big your bodies natural state was before you started training, which yet again comes down to genetics and build type.


Of course it does. Having the belief and drive will get some people who arent gentically gifted alot further than someone blessed with genetics that has a **** work ethic.


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## Andy Dee (Jun 1, 2008)

robisco11 said:


> Of course it does. Having the belief and drive will get some people who arent gentically gifted alot further than someone blessed with genetics that has a **** work ethic.


Sorry i meant from a phyiscal point of view but yes belief plays a part in taking you as far as you can go i supose, as without belief, there will never be a motivation to try in the first place.


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## Greyphantom (Oct 23, 2003)

Who was that firefighting bber... cole porter?? who said believe it and achieve it...


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## BigDom86 (Jul 27, 2008)

andysutils said:


> Having belief and whats physically possible doesn't really make any difference.
> 
> It doesnt matter how much i believe how big i will be without gear, what i believe wont make that desicion for me, only my genetics and what my body will allow me to naturally carry however will.
> 
> I think it depends on how big your bodies natural state was before you started training, which yet again comes down to genetics and build type.


bollocks. i hate this whole genetics crap. at an elite level then yes. but as your recreational gym goer its a load of crap and a cop out. ive known guys gone from 9stone to 19stone naturally (with visible abs). one of my training partners being one of those who ive trained with for over 5 years


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## robisco11 (Dec 8, 2007)

andysutils said:


> Sorry i meant from a phyiscal point of view but yes belief plays a part in taking you as far as you can go i supose, as without belief, there will never be a motivation to try in the first place.


ahhh our wires were crossed! Obviously belief isnt going to change your genetic make up, but setting out with the attitude..'im never going to be big' is self deafeatism right away!!


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## Canvas (Dec 2, 2008)

robisco11 said:


> Saying that.....no...you wont get big, believe it and you can do!


 sorry i think i worded that wrong . i belive i can get BIG for me just not huge in terms of weightlifters . i train hard and eat right so i know somthing will happen, just wasnt sure what you can aim at without roids


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## Andy Dee (Jun 1, 2008)

I will never be big without gear, depending on what you call big as my frame size is the size of a piece of string lol.

I started out weighing a near death 119lbs, no thats not a spelling mistake and the highest weight i got to naturally was 180lbs, well im never going to be 200lbs thats a guranteed fact without gear, I was amazed even with total dedication and years of consistancy I even got to that weight so I guess its mostly based on your genetic frame.


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## BigDom86 (Jul 27, 2008)

robisco11 said:


> ahhh our wires were crossed! Obviously belief isnt going to change your genetic make up, but setting out with the attitude..'im never going to be big' is self deafeatism right away!!


completely agree. if you have determination and will it can get you a long way.

if you cant push through pain barriers, or eat through non hunger, then no you dont have determination and wont make it


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## BigDom86 (Jul 27, 2008)

andysutils said:


> I will never be big without gear, depending on what you call big as my frame size is the size of a piece of string lol.
> 
> I started out weighing a near death 119lbs, no thats not a spelling mistake and the highest weight i got to naturally was 180lbs, well im never going to be 200lbs thats a guranteed fact without gear, I was amazed even with total dedication and years of consistancy I even got to that weight so I guess its mostly based on your genetic frame.


mate i started out at below 140lbs at 6ft1! this was for boxing purposes. i now weigh over 250lbs with visible abs...

same with one of my training partners, and he weighed even less than me and now weighs even more!

id be interested to hear about your diet and training principles, i bet i could get you over 200lbs easily


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## Pete1436114491 (Nov 3, 2003)

There's only 1 real way to find out...keep at it and see how big you get. And I don't just mean for 6 months or a year, I'm talking 10+ years, then keep going. It's a slow process for most not on gear. I've been training 17+ years and gone from 10 1/2 stone to 16 stone. But only recently added 2 of those stone. (the last 2 ha ha) Also when people say use big compound movements to build mass and only then should you use isolation stuff to 'shape' and 'define'... forget the latter, stick to the big movements cos you get shape as you get bigger. You'll end up wasting too many years doing curls and kickbacks and leg extensions when you could have been getting stronger therefore bigger doing Squats, deadlifts, bench etc. IMO

report back in 2020 dude! Oh, eat more too.


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## Andy Dee (Jun 1, 2008)

BigDom86 said:


> mate i started out at below 140lbs at 6ft1! this was for boxing purposes. i now weigh over 250lbs with visible abs...
> 
> same with one of my training partners, and he weighed even less than me and now weighs even more!
> 
> id be interested to hear about your diet and training principles, i bet i could get you over 200lbs easily


Dom i hate this genetics crap and i always try and tell myself its bollox aswell, problem is I havent seen any guys of my build gain over 100lbs without gear, if thats dam possible then ill be a happy camper so its the only thing ive got to go on.


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## BigDom86 (Jul 27, 2008)

one thing i find with people who say they cant get bigger etc. they cant push themselves mentally through the pain barrier to get those few extra reps


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## Judas (Jan 21, 2009)

I am roid free and I'm MASSIVE.


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## big silver back (Jan 17, 2009)

You can get big without steroids as long as your diet is good and you train heavy, i've got upto 20 plus stone are half tidy condition natty but i think if you want to be in really good condition you gotta have them


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## BigDom86 (Jul 27, 2008)

andysutils said:


> Dom i hate this genetics crap and i always try and tell myself its bollox aswell, problem is I havent seen any guys of my build gain over 100lbs without gear, if thats dam possible then ill be a happy camper so its the only thing ive got to go on.
> 
> was your 250lbs natural though?


yes im still natural. i have gear, but its sitting in my cupboard till im complety ready. im waking up over 18stone with visible abs, i started at 10 stone when i used to box about 5-6 years ago. my training partner went from 9stone to 19stone in the same time period, he has lower bodyfat than me though.

do you have a journal mate? id love to put some input in.


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## Andy Dee (Jun 1, 2008)

BigDom86 said:


> one thing i find with people who say they cant get bigger etc. they cant push themselves mentally through the pain barrier to get those few extra reps


oh i can tolerate the pain alright, i kind of actually like it in a weird way, its knowing how to get past the plateu as they get harder and harder.

Well thats pretty amazing youve gained all that and got to 250.

Check your visitor messages .

sorry just seen your status saying your natty.


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## Canvas (Dec 2, 2008)

the reason i was asking was ive been atr 11stone for the last 2 months now i get stronger just not putting on the weight :confused1: surely my genitics will let me get well obove 11stone


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## M_at (May 2, 2009)

I think it depends on your definition of what BIG is.

For me BIG is just BIG - I don't care that much about the bf% being stupid low to give me abs etc - I'd just like to be obviously big not ripped.

I can probably get there but right now I have other considerations which are limiting my weight a little so I'd training for strength only.


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## Greyphantom (Oct 23, 2003)

BigDom86 said:


> bollocks. i hate this whole genetics crap. at an elite level then yes. but as your recreational gym goer its a load of crap and a cop out. ive known guys gone from 9stone to 19stone naturally (with visible abs). one of my training partners being one of those who ive trained with for over 5 years


He gained 10 stone with visible abs naturally over how long?


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## BigDom86 (Jul 27, 2008)

about 6-7 years now as he started whilst i was boxing about 6 years ago.


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## F.M.J (Mar 23, 2009)

I'm 6'4" and have went this year from 73kg/160lbs/11.6 stone - 91kg/200lbs/14.4 stone (5kg in the last 6 weeks)  still completely natural.


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## Greyphantom (Oct 23, 2003)

Greyphantom said:


> Who was that firefighting bber... cole porter?? who said believe it and achieve it...


Cole Porter... ffs I meant Porter Cotrell... sheesh... took me a bit to remember his name... but he always said you should believe it cos then you can achieve it...


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## Greyphantom (Oct 23, 2003)

BigDom86 said:


> about 6-7 years now as he started whilst i was boxing about 6 years ago.


Cool... good on him for working hard to achieve that... as has been said not many could...


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## Greyphantom (Oct 23, 2003)

I think also we need to examine the natural limit of weight gain, ie what one can gain in a year naturally... muscle gain I mean cos pretty much anyone could gain a shed load of fat and more easily than muscle mores the pity... I did read or was told about some sort of natural limit for gaining muscle in a year but cannot remember the total or if there was one...


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## LeonJenkins (Sep 15, 2009)

Ive gotten this far without steroids... I wouldnt say im big tho. The only steroid i would take if i was to, would be Winstrol.


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## LittleChris (Jan 17, 2009)

Dom, would be interested to see some pictoral evidence of 250lbs with abs.

As for genetics being used as an excuse, this is true to an extent, but it is such a factor. At my Uni gym there was a black who ate a poor diet, by his own admission, and went to the gym but was in incredible shape. 200lbs and very lean.

People like to use genetics as an excuse, but at the same time, others like to ignore how important genetics really are.


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## BigDom86 (Jul 27, 2008)

lol i said visible abs. not abs  there is a difference.

i think genetics only come into play at elitist level tbh


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## LittleChris (Jan 17, 2009)

So only the elite people are blessed with great genetics?

When I cycled to a high level, I remember there was a boy who turned up for one ride and led the pack on our training ride on a mountain bike for 20miles at speed. We were on carbon fibre TT bikes. Thats an example of great genetics.

You can't ignore genetics, its madness.


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## BigDom86 (Jul 27, 2008)

of course genetics cant be ignored. but i think alot of people use it as a cop out.


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## robisco11 (Dec 8, 2007)

BigDom86 said:


> of course genetics cant be ignored. but i think alot of people use it as a cop out.


 :thumbup1: blaming genetics is an easy way to make up for shortcomings. As an example, how many people do you hear moaning about 'stubborn calfs'? If we were to believe what we hear, 99% of people have no ability to grow impressive calves. Its a load of sh!t, its because they dont train them hard enough!


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## LittleChris (Jan 17, 2009)

robisco11 said:


> :thumbup1: blaming genetics is an easy way to make up for shortcomings. As an example, how many people do you hear moaning about 'stubborn calfs'? If we were to believe what we hear, 99% of people have no ability to grow impressive calves. Its a load of sh!t, its because they dont train them hard enough!


 :lol:

Try telling Quincy that :confused1:

http://www.ifbbpro.com/wp-content/uploads/image/2008/results/2008europa_taylor.jpg


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## BigDom86 (Jul 27, 2008)

LittleChris said:


> :lol:
> 
> Try telling Quincy that :confused1:
> 
> http://www.ifbbpro.com/wp-content/uploads/image/2008/results/2008europa_taylor.jpg


 :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

easy answer, use synthol or get some implants?


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## LittleChris (Jan 17, 2009)

No, he just isn't training them hard enough apparently...


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## M_at (May 2, 2009)

What is it with people and calves. They should be the first thing that people try to grow :lol:


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## Greyphantom (Oct 23, 2003)

M_at said:


> What is it with people and calves. They should be the first thing that people try to grow :lol:


Yeah imagine all the steaks you can get from the adult... hmmm steaks...


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## vandangos (Feb 25, 2009)

my maths teacher was a beast (and still is) at one point was 19 stone with abs showing but not totally ripped prob around 8% bf at 6ft. always told me he was natty and i believe him, he has been training for at least 15 years tho.


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## robisco11 (Dec 8, 2007)

LittleChris said:


> No, he just isn't training them hard enough apparently...


I said the majority you cok


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## LittleChris (Jan 17, 2009)

Not 99% then?


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## Littleluke (Nov 21, 2005)

Agree with Chris regarding genetics. They play a MASSIVE role. Genetics determin your shape, insertions etc therefore if you are naturally small waisted, your limbs will look bigger in comparison when you've got your shirt off.. Some people have naturally thicker physiques and look big in T-shirts but rubbish out of. If you're 5ft 8 you could propbably get to a decent size.. Just focus on eating the right foods and training hard. You can't change you genetics (yet) BUT you can optimize what you have by doing everything in your power (food, trainnig and rest)..

EVERYONE is different so just get on with it.. If you stop growing, increase your food. Chnage the order of your exercises, number of sets and so on.. Oh and use boditronics


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## Jake1436114563 (May 9, 2008)

For your average Joe getting "big" will be a long and hard slog if staying natural.


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## Growing Lad (Feb 14, 2009)

if you look at the best natural bbers in the world, unless their freakishly tall, a lbm over 200lbs is very rare.

of course their are exceptions, but to compete over 200lbs natural (shredded & average height) would mean you are elite genetically.

genetics play a huge roll, not being a cop out. but anything from metabolism, nutrient partitioning, muscle insertions, recovery.....all play a big role.

but anyone can look better than 99% of the population if they train/eat hard n smart


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## westsider (Feb 12, 2007)

vandangos said:


> my maths teacher was a beast (and still is) at one point was 19 stone with abs showing but not totally ripped prob around 8% bf at 6ft. always told me he was natty and i believe him, he has been training for at least 15 years tho.


Holy $hit!!! 19st natty with 8%bf at 6ft!!! I am doing something seriously wrong if thats the case!!!!


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## Littleluke (Nov 21, 2005)

BigDom - Post up some recent pics. Lets see these visible abs at 250lbs.


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## Greyphantom (Oct 23, 2003)

westsider said:


> Holy $hit!!! 19st natty with 8%bf at 6ft!!! I am doing something seriously wrong if thats the case!!!!


I suspect the fat % is seriously under estimated... as per Weemans thread on bbing and lies... not that I am saying anyone is lying... :thumbup1:


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## ManOnAMission (May 1, 2009)

vandangos said:


> my maths teacher was a beast (and still is) at one point was 19 stone with abs showing but not totally ripped prob around 8% bf at 6ft. always told me he was natty and i believe him, he has been training for at least 15 years tho.


:laugh::laugh: good joke mate!


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## ManOnAMission (May 1, 2009)

LittleChris said:


> So only the elite people are blessed with great genetics?
> 
> When I cycled to a high level, I remember there was a boy who turned up for one ride and led the pack on our training ride on a mountain bike for 20miles at speed. We were on carbon fibre TT bikes. Thats an example of great genetics.
> 
> You can't ignore genetics, its madness.


Is that you on your profile and avatar?


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## Andy Dee (Jun 1, 2008)

Canvas said:


> the reason i was asking was ive been atr 11stone for the last 2 months now i get stronger just not putting on the weight :confused1: surely my genitics will let me get well obove 11stone


Theres only 2 things to look at then, your diet and training.

No point in comparing yourself to those people though, they didnt become 19 stones animals in 9 months and neither will you or anyone else.

Just because there way bigger than you mate it doesnt mean they got any bigger any quicker than you can.


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## OrganicSteel (Feb 4, 2008)

vandangos said:


> my maths teacher was a beast (and still is) at one point was 19 stone with abs showing but not totally ripped prob around 8% bf at 6ft. always told me he was natty and i believe him, he has been training for at least 15 years tho.


Just because someone told you they are natural, doesn't make it true. It's human nature to lie :whistling:


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## Andy Dee (Jun 1, 2008)

John XTC-SE said:


> Is that you on your profile and avatar?


if thats a serious question im ***** offended.


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## warren (Jun 16, 2008)

dom impressive figures mate, post up some pics as i dont even now what that would look like, my mate is 6'2 210lbs with vis abs and i think he looks a v big lad.


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## BigDom86 (Jul 27, 2008)

theres a big difference between visible abs. and a proper cut out 8pack. my abs are visible, as in i can see them. i admit i am carrying alot of bodyfat right now though. for competition weight so far i dont know what id have to cut down too from 250, maybe 220? bit lower? dont know.

my main goal is to get to 20stone+ with similar bodyfat, whether i get to this natural or not who knows, i got the tools just waiting to use them


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## BigDom86 (Jul 27, 2008)

i agree with luke on the loooking big in tshirt thing. i look good in a tshirt but think i look crap out of one


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## hilly (Jan 19, 2008)

BigDom86 said:


> theres a big difference between visible abs. and a proper cut out 8pack. my abs are visible, as in i can see them. i admit i am carrying alot of bodyfat right now though. for competition weight so far i dont know what id have to cut down too from 250, maybe 220? bit lower? dont know.
> 
> my main goal is to get to 20stone+ with similar bodyfat, whether i get to this natural or not who knows, i got the tools just waiting to use them


well this year con cut from 250lb to 200lbs. do you think your bodyfat is around were cons was when he started dieting. his pics are in his thread for comp prep??

that would give you a good judge as i doubt you only have 30lb of fat to drop pal.


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## Guest (Sep 15, 2009)

One of my tutors at college is natty, about 16.7st @ 6ft2, not massive i know, but striations here, there and everywhere. Strong with a good physique, eats no more than an average rabbit :lol:


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## F.M.J (Mar 23, 2009)

God said:


> Now a lot of people may think this is a load of b0llux but this for the benefit of the OP to set an attainable target, NOT A LIMIT.
> 
> This calculator takes into account your build and I personally think that while it may not be completely accurate as everyone is too unique for a simple calculator, it can help set a realistic long term goal. For instance with my height of 5'9 and my bone structure it estimates I could get up to around 195lb with low body fat %. That to me seems like a reasonable target.
> 
> ...


This is what I got...


*The WeighTrainer*

Maximum Muscular Bodyweight and Measurements Calculator

 Height:76 inWrist:8 inAnkle:9 in  

Your estimated maximum muscular bodyweight at ~12% bodyfat is: *238.9 lbs* 

Your estimated maximum muscular measurements (@ ~8%-10% bodyfat) are:

 Chest:51 inBiceps:19 inForearms:15.2 in Neck:18.5 inThighs:26.2 inCalves:17.6 in

I guessed my wrist size and ankle size as I couldn't be ar$ed to get the tape measure.

I'm 38.9lbs off


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## F.M.J (Mar 23, 2009)

*The WeighTrainer*

Maximum Muscular Bodyweight and Measurements Calculator

 Height:76 inWrist:7.2 inAnkle:9 in  

Your estimated maximum muscular bodyweight at ~12% bodyfat is: *233.8 lbs* 

Your estimated maximum muscular measurements (@ ~8%-10% bodyfat) are:

 Chest:49.7 inBiceps:18.1 inForearms:14.4 in Neck:17.6 inThighs:26.2 inCalves:17.6 in

My wrist is 7.2" and ankle size dot on 9"... Quite allot of change still! Instantly lose almost 1" off my biceps mg: :laugh:


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## Jake1436114563 (May 9, 2008)

volatileacid said:


> I'm 6'1.5" ! and i've got to 102kg/16stone with about 17%bf.
> 
> *My bench incline is 100kg. Flat 110-115. Squats - had to start from scratch as of back injury - deep is 110 - deads, 140....*
> 
> ...


Hate to sound like a pr**k.... but this may help you.

Your lifts are poor to be honest. Training for 7-8 years and you only deadlift 140kg? Bench 115kg? I could deadlift 140Kg before any training.

You need to focus on increasing scale weight and your strength.

Scale weight increases + Strength increases = Muscle mass increase


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## Jake1436114563 (May 9, 2008)

F.M.J said:


> *The WeighTrainer*
> 
> Maximum Muscular Bodyweight and Measurements Calculator
> 
> ...


But are you at true 12% bodyfat?


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## Greyphantom (Oct 23, 2003)

Jake said:


> *Hate to sound like a *pr**k*...*. but this may help you.
> 
> Your lifts are poor to be honest. Training for 7-8 years and you only deadlift 140kg? Bench 115kg? I could deadlift 140Kg before any training.
> 
> ...


yeah you do... this is where genetics would come in I would say... just because you can lift such awesome weights without any training whatsoever does not mean that others can... after all this is why we are lifting... to gain strength, increase our lifts and get bigger... belittling a persons lifts is not exactly stellar conduct... if only we could all be as awesome as you on our first visit to the gym and we pick up that 300kg and bench it...


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## essexboy (Sep 7, 2008)

"A true mesomorph will look like he has spent all his life in a gym, even though hes never been through the doors".A True Ectomorph even though he may live in the gym, will look like hes never walked through the gym doors" -Arthur Jones.


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## essexboy (Sep 7, 2008)

Jake said:


> But are you at true 12% bodyfat?


These "calculators" ignore the most important factor, in determining muscle size.That being length of insertion.Any individual who exibits significantly larger than average muscle size, will have been blessed with long muscle insertions, and short tendon attachments.A muscle can never be thicker than its length, otherwise it wouldnt be able to contract.


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## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

BigDom86 said:


> bollocks. i hate this whole genetics crap. at an elite level then yes. but as your recreational gym goer its a load of crap and a cop out. ive known guys gone from 9stone to 19stone naturally (with visible abs). one of my training partners being one of those who ive trained with for over 5 years


Dom, Starting weight\size is irrelevant for your genetic predisposition to be able to build muscle or not...

Most of the top bodybuilders started super skinny as thats why they intially started lifting......

Being natural mesomorph, is by no means an indicator that you will be able to build muscle faster than a naturual ectomorph... It just means your starting point is a lot higher...

I would have thought you would have known this...

Genetic limitations come in a vast array of shapes and sizes


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## Squeeeze (Oct 2, 2007)

I think another issue is how many people who say they aren't growing are actually training properly, i.e. not overtraining and taking a proven systematic approach to progression such as abbreviated training? How many of them are reaching a plateau and then banging thier head against a wall for months on end complaining that they aint growing in size/strength?


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## BigDom86 (Jul 27, 2008)

jw007 said:


> Dom, Starting weight\size is irrelevant for your genetic predisposition to be able to build muscle or not...
> 
> Most of the top bodybuilders started super skinny as thats why they intially started lifting......
> 
> ...


big joe i dont know alot  i know you started at a very light weight. what you weigh now? as your very lean too.

me personally im an ectomorph, if you see the pics of me when i first started at 10stone. i suppose i could of entered the classic class though:thumb:


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## essexboy (Sep 7, 2008)

jw007 said:


> Dom, Starting weight\size is irrelevant for your genetic predisposition to be able to build muscle or not...
> 
> Most of the top bodybuilders started super skinny as thats why they intially started lifting......
> 
> ...


Agreed, however a natural Meso, will have an easier time adding muscle.As you correctly state though, Genetic advantages/limitations are infinite.


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## LittleChris (Jan 17, 2009)

essexboy said:


> These "calculators" ignore the most important factor, in determining muscle size.That being length of insertion.Any individual who exibits significantly larger than average muscle size, will have been blessed with long muscle insertions, and short tendon attachments.A muscle can never be thicker than its length, otherwise it wouldnt be able to contract.


How can you tell this by looking at your own body? Any tips? :beer:


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## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

BigDom86 said:


> big joe i dont know alot  i know you started at a very light weight. what you weigh now? as your very lean too.
> 
> me personally im an ectomorph, if you see the pics of me when i first started at 10stone. i suppose i could of entered the classic class though:thumb:


started at 7.5st

Now 17st


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## dudz (Oct 27, 2008)

essexboy said:


> Agreed, however a natural Meso, will have an easier time adding muscle.As you correctly state though, Genetic advantages/limitations are infinite.


Is there a sure fire method for determining what body type you have? Meso/Endo/Ecto?


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## Andy Dee (Jun 1, 2008)

jw007 said:


> started at 7.5st
> 
> Now 17st


How old was you when you started at that weight?


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## Cheese (Jul 7, 2009)

jw007 said:


> started at 7.5st
> 
> Now 17st


Did you make big gains within your fist few years or were they steady gains over a long period? I know you said the other day you have been that sive since you were 21 but I not sure if you were taking the pi55.

Did you make big natural gains before going on gear?

I can't imagine seeing you at 7.5st, its impressive thats why so many questions.


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## essexboy (Sep 7, 2008)

Squeeeze said:


> I think another issue is how many people who say they aren't growing are actually training properly, i.e. not overtraining and taking a proven systematic approach to progression such as abbreviated training? How many of them are reaching a plateau and then banging thier head against a wall for months on end complaining that they aint growing in size/strength?


nearly everyone.


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## essexboy (Sep 7, 2008)

dudz said:


> Is there a sure fire method for determining what body type you have? Meso/Endo/Ecto?[/quote
> 
> If youve been trainning for 6 months. youll know.


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## Guest (Sep 16, 2009)

Big is such a relative term. I could go up to 300lb by the end of this year totally drug free, in fact i would not even need to train it would be easier if i did not train! All i would do is play playstation and eat junk all day long.

With out drugs any one can with the right decication achieve a body where most people will go "wow he is a big guy". Now if your talking pro sized well then even if you take all the drugs in the world unless you have special genetics that will not be happening.

I give this example. How many people try and be a top footballer? All through school they practice and play hard hoping to one day make the big time. They do this for a couple of decades and one day realize that they do not have the right genetics to achieve this. At the top level every one tries hard the ones that succeed are the ones that are genetically capable of being better than all the others that try hard.


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## Jake1436114563 (May 9, 2008)

Greyphantom said:


> yeah you do... this is where genetics would come in I would say... *just because you can lift such awesome weights without any training whatsoever does not mean that others can*... after all this is why we are lifting... to gain strength, increase our lifts and get bigger... belittling a persons lifts is not exactly stellar conduct... if only we could all be as awesome as you on our first visit to the gym and we pick up that 300kg and bench it...


Right, first of all the highligted is pure crap fella. WHERE DID I SAY he should be lifting more than that without any training.

I was making a point, he reckons his lifts are decent, and implying he should be bigger than he is because of his lifts. His lifts ARE poor, especially after all this time training.

As for the blue bit, now who looks like a pr**k? Lose your attitude. A 140 Kg deadlift without training is not THAT unusual. Although you may be a ****ing weakling. (Attitude back at you).

I was offering sound advice. You got on a high horse.

If he is only lifting these numbers, after all this time (8 years) then his training needs to be looked at.

Even the hardest of hardgainer, on a linear progression programme, would be lifting more than this after 6 months odd.


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## essexboy (Sep 7, 2008)

LittleChris said:


> How can you tell this by looking at your own body? Any tips? :beer:


wrote this a while back Chis.

Ok.The first requirement is skeletal proportion.That would mean shoulders wider than hips.a huge skeletal structure is not vital, but a woody allen frame would not be able to support larger than normal amounts of muscle.

Without doubt the most important factor is muscle length.That means, do your muscles extend far into the joint with minimal tendon attachments?flex your arm. how much gap is there between the bicep and the elbow joint? under an inch? well done you probably have big biceps. two inches or more, your probably like me, smaller biceps(damn,)Triceps too, look at the arm of mike mentzer, whose had some of the biggest triceps.Both his tricep muscles ended right into the elbow joint.The longer the muscle, the greater is its potential to increase in cross section.A muscle can never be wider than its length, otherwise it wouldnt be able to contract.Look at the arms of sergio oliva, his biceps are so long, he cannot bend his arm more than 45 degrees to contact his arms! legs are different,the most important factor(as most have longish legs), do you have an roundness in the vatus medius, the muscle thats shaped like a teardrop above your knee?do your lats continue to your waist?(like yates) are your delts naturally round. these traits usually demonstrate above average potential.also important is the amount of fibres in each muscle group.The more fibres, the more growth(thickening) can occur.

Fat distribution. Do your store most of your fat around your internal organs,(good) on under the skin? (bad) not everyone will be able to display a low enough fat % to show abdominals.this can also be compounded by ethnicity.Black guys originate in hotter climates. therefore body fat was not as essential for warmth.Same for mediteranean types.(think Gaspari) Got blonde hair? you may be from Nordic genes. Fat is more essential for survival, so you may have been born with more fat cells, and will have a harder time getting lean.Same goes for baltic/russian types. how many russians in the olympia? should be dozens, (per population)but theres not.then theres other stuff like drug sensitivity(think levrone)

Just remember. An above level of development,is not an indicator of expertise.The mere fact that a given individual has achieved an impressive build does not qualify them as expert.Nor does attempting to mimic a training routine from said individual.Logic would then tell you to ask michael johnson how he is able to run so fast, or to to bounce a basket ball the same as magic johnson, to grow to 7ft tall, and excell at basket ball.

Gentic limits (for bb) exist on a bell curve with elite on one extreme and minimal on the other, with every variety in between. Some can achieve thier potential in a very short time span.Not all of us will ever be able to increase muscular size, and lose enough fat to be competitive bbs.However we shouldnt stop trying, just pursue the goal with a realistic perspective.


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## BigDom86 (Jul 27, 2008)

my penis is 16" around


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## BLUE(UK) (Jan 9, 2008)

BigDom86 said:


> my penis is 16" around


That's your neck!! :whistling:


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## F.M.J (Mar 23, 2009)

jw007 said:


> started at 7.5st
> 
> Now 17st


Amazing! To go from such a light weight to being HUGE and lean must have been some size mountain to climb! Purely just to keep your eye on the goal must have been a mountain in itself!

Never really think of people of your stature to have ever been what you were before you started lifting!


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## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

andysutils said:


> How old was you when you started at that weight?


I was about 15 mate



Cheese said:


> Did you make big gains within your fist few years or were they steady gains over a long period? I know you said the other day you have been that sive since you were 21 but I not sure if you were taking the pi55.
> 
> Did you make big natural gains before going on gear?
> 
> I can't imagine seeing you at 7.5st, its impressive thats why so many questions.


I have posted a pic on here before when I was aged 15 I will try find it...

No I wasnt as big at 21 but prob not far off TBH

comp I did at 21 is added on link below

I competed Natty at PL and BB at 17 and (11.5 st on stage)

from 17yrs old to 19 years old I force fed myself, it was disgusting what I ate PMSL

No way could I do it now

Breakfast

6 eggs

4bacon

6 toast

tin beans

liter milk

8 tuna sarnies in day and 3 liters milk

dinner

2 440g tins of beef stew

1 tine of tuna

1 liter milk

4 cans lager

I went to 15st fat

The at 19 I started my 1st course of dbol 30mg a day

grew like a fkcin weed

decided to lose my fat and competed again at 19 weighing 12.5 st

Below I was 21 and prob a tad under 14st


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## BLUE(UK) (Jan 9, 2008)

I started at 9lb 9oz and am now roughly 17 3/4st.


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## BigDom86 (Jul 27, 2008)

BLUE(UK) said:


> That's your neck!! :whistling:


no its my penis :cursing: :cursing: :cursing: honest! :whistling:


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## F.M.J (Mar 23, 2009)

essexboy said:


> wrote this a while back Chis.
> 
> Ok.The first requirement is skeletal proportion.That would mean shoulders wider than hips.a huge skeletal structure is not vital, but a woody allen frame would not be able to support larger than normal amounts of muscle.
> 
> ...


Now I feel like sh1t! :ban: According to this I'm just not designed to be a bodybuilder! :crying: my biceps end 2 inches from elbow same with triceps, shoulders aren't naturally rounded, lats go to about mid belly so I think that's alright legs are fine.

You know ignorance is bliss sometimes! :ban: :lol:


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## Greyphantom (Oct 23, 2003)

Jake said:


> Right, first of all the highligted is pure crap fella. WHERE DID I SAY he should be lifting more than that without any training.


I didnt say you did say that I was commenting on you stroking your pen!s by belittling his weights with a quick comment on how awesome you were the first time you went into the gym...



Jake said:


> I was making a point, he reckons his lifts are decent, and implying he should be bigger than he is because of his lifts. His lifts ARE poor, especially after all this time training.


exactly... I know this and the point was given with pure attitude and a demeaning nature... I think his lifts are ok... not sure what his goals are (eg strongman, powerlifter, bber, just wants to get big and strong for a regular bloke) so instead of coming off like a grade a [email protected] by making a comment that without training you can destroy his lifts instead of asking genuine questions about his training, goals etc... thus implying he is a big jessie... you know nothing about his history or build or anything... nice esp...



Jake said:


> As for the blue bit, now who looks like a pr**k? Lose your attitude. A 140 Kg deadlift without training is not THAT unusual. Although you may be a ****ing weakling. (Attitude back at you).


Sorry mate didnt mean to make you whine... well actually I did... a 140kg dead without any training is pretty damn good and I dont know many who walking into the gym with no experience or training can do a good deadlift with 140... sure you get those who are freakishly strong and could lift a cow who would do it with one hand... but not all of us are like that... oooh attitude back at me, now I am gonna cry... waaahhh....



Jake said:


> I was offering sound advice. You got on a high horse.


no you werent... you told him he lifted like sh!t then stroked your ego by going all "I can lift more than you without any training... ooooooh"...



Jake said:


> If he is only lifting these numbers, after all this time (8 years) then his training needs to be looked at.


perhaps... but you could have been more classy about offering that sort of advice... perhaps I am just being touchy... it might be that time of the month... :wink:



Jake said:


> Even the hardest of hardgainer, on a linear progression programme, would be lifting more than this after 6 months odd.


I am not so sure about this... bad insertions, strongly ecto and all the other genetic markers that make some hard gainers might make some predisposed to have a harder time of it when it comes to increasing their weights than others... of course we would all like increasing weights to come as easy as it does for Dorian, Pudz and Ronnie (and quite a few blokes on here too) but wishing aint fishing and wont catch your dinner...


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## Greyphantom (Oct 23, 2003)

F.M.J said:


> Now I feel like sh1t! :ban: According to this I'm just not designed to be a bodybuilder! :crying: my biceps end 2 inches from elbow same with triceps, shoulders aren't naturally rounded, lats go to about mid belly so I think that's alright legs are fine.
> 
> You know ignorance is bliss sometimes! :ban: :lol:


Yeah know what you mean... off to eat a big choccy cake now... sigh... no wait... chicken and potatoes it is...


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## Round-2 (Jul 20, 2009)

essexboy said:


> wrote this a while back Chis.
> 
> Ok.The first requirement is skeletal proportion.That would mean shoulders wider than hips.a huge skeletal structure is not vital, but a woody allen frame would not be able to support larger than normal amounts of muscle.
> 
> ...


Biceps inch from joint - check

lats end 2 inches from waist - check

Shoulders wider than waist - check much wider.

fair hair blue eyes - ow bollox yep. Oh well back to running

Very informative post boss, if it's accurate I coulda given arnie a run for his money.. uh 20 yrs ago.


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## Jake1436114563 (May 9, 2008)

Grey:

I can't be ****d to argue with you.

I wasn't being as bolshy as you seem to think. You're being a hypocrite.

And some of the points etc you've made make me think you know little about real training.


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## scotty_new (Jun 5, 2008)

simple yes you can, but youl always be bigger with roids


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## Mr Incredible (Aug 3, 2009)

see jeff rodrigues and others, I've seen some big natural guys and ones with awsome physiques;

I used to train at a place in Hampton Court and use to see this guy daily;

http://www.247bodybuilding.com/rob_hope.htm

he competes bodybuilding and powerlifting, always trains heavy watched him DL 7 1/2 plates a side.

Seen another guy one day walk into Pinks in surrey squatting 6 plates a side with vigour for reps, he was 6ft 3 minimum, I was shocked.

I haven't touched anything since October last and I still really enjoy training and feel good and look reasonable.


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## Greyphantom (Oct 23, 2003)

Jake said:


> Grey:
> 
> I can't be ****d to argue with you.
> 
> ...


Then perhaps I misconstrued your post... not hypocritical I think... be each to his own opinion... works both ways mate... have a nice evening...


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## Need-valid-info (Mar 29, 2009)

I started off at 12 stone, got up to 18 with visible abs at 6'4 over a 3 year period, im now 20, got most of my growth within the first 2 years


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## BigDom86 (Jul 27, 2008)

Mr Incredible said:


> see jeff rodrigues and others, I've seen some big natural guys and ones with awsome physiques;
> 
> I used to train at a place in Hampton Court and use to see this guy daily;
> 
> ...


pinks is a great gym i hear. bit far for me though, if i had a car i would go.


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## dudz (Oct 27, 2008)

essexboy said:


> If youve been trainning for 6 months. youll know.


I've been training for a year and i don't know for sure, lol...

I have very broad shoulders and long arms for my height (5ft10" with ape arms lol), i've never been skinny and i've never been fat, always had an athletic build, i started out BB at 11 stone and went up to 14 stone within a year, just finished my first ever diet and im down to 13 stone @ 9-10% bf measured with those electronic scales so give or take a % point.

Just measured the distance between my bicep and elbow joint and its around 1cm, not sure what you mean by tricep ending in the elbow joint? lol...


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## dudz (Oct 27, 2008)

God said:


> I've come to the conclusion that all electronic scales are completely useless for measuring body fat so don't rely on them. Calipers are better but I still think that the mirror is the best way to judge bodyfat.


How do they even work lol? Like how does the science behind them work? Do they simply go off HR or something?


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## Mr Incredible (Aug 3, 2009)

BigDom86 said:


> pinks is a great gym i hear. bit far for me though, if i had a car i would go.


Nah, full of ****ers, what area do you live


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## F.M.J (Mar 23, 2009)

volatileacid said:


> You hardly think that 5kg is all muscle do you?


No.


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