# Diet to get shredded, help please.



## MXD (Jan 23, 2008)

Alright lads, I'm after the opinions of those who have dieted to sub 6% and how best to acheive it.

I'm currently dieting and cosuming 10*lbm calories, under 100g carbs per day.

Sitting at 10%ish body fat and I'm planning a reffed e7d consisting of more carbs.

I also plan to drop a day/s between reffeeds as I get continually leaner.

Now I was wondering what you all think I should take my calories to on my refeed as I'm eating 1650 pd / 10*lbm currently.

Or would you suggest a different approach as carb rotation, or a type of ckd?, cheers. :thumbup1:

My maintainance = 2475k


----------



## shorty (Mar 13, 2007)

1650 cals per day mg: ... i'm eating 1800 - 2000 cals a day and think thats hard!!


----------



## MXD (Jan 23, 2008)

lol, its ok.


----------



## Lost Soul (Apr 5, 2008)

1650 calories each day is too low


----------



## Robsta (Oct 2, 2005)

I thought it should be 500 cals down from normal to cut in....??


----------



## Lost Soul (Apr 5, 2008)

Robsta said:


> I thought it should be 500 cals down from normal to cut in....??


Not universally, so many ways to do it

1650 calories though is not one of them


----------



## MXD (Jan 23, 2008)

I'm loosing 0 muscle, though power output is down. That allways happens with me when I reduce my carb intake.

Any more opinions / help?? :beer:

btw im doing 0 cardio..


----------



## Lost Soul (Apr 5, 2008)

MXD said:


> I'm loosing 0 muscle, though power output is down. That allways happens with me when I reduce my carb intake.
> 
> Any more opinions / help?? :beer:
> 
> btw im doing 0 cardio..


You will not lose muscle initially, you will do though when you get into the depths of dieting.

1650 calories is a fraction of your TDEE and you can get away with it on a day off from training on the low part of carb cycling diets with a medium and higher day in the two following but trust me you will not get to 6% on a static intake of 1650 calories and keep muscle


----------



## MXD (Jan 23, 2008)

whatwould you suggest?


----------



## Lost Soul (Apr 5, 2008)

carb cycle, higher days on training days if you train PM, higher days the day before training if you train first thing

depending on the days you train, cycle high low and medium carb days, protein stays static, fat pretty much too, only thing that changes are carbs


----------



## pauly7582 (Jan 16, 2007)

Just give it time mate. Even with a re feed. Keeping to so little kcals will break, you I've tried it. First you'll loose a little power. Then a couple of reps. Then 20k off your bench.

Carb cycling is the only way for me and I stay quite sane on it. Keep me full too.


----------



## Tall (Aug 14, 2007)

MXD said:


> I'm loosing 0 muscle, though power output is down. That allways happens with me when I reduce my carb intake.
> 
> Any more opinions / help?? :beer:
> 
> btw im doing 0 cardio..


Max for someone who spent month formulating a PostWorkout Shake I'm worried that you've gone for 1600kcals amigo.

Unless you have finished your cycle you won't be aware of what muscle (if any you have lost) due to the amount of fluid your body will still be retaining.

All the BB'ers will say carb cycling.

If you can do it then it may be worth while having a look at some form of modified Keto (TKD+CKD) which is in essence a form of carb cycling.

Also the answer you don't want to hear is that you need to up your cardio.

AM Cardio (none fasted IMHO) every day - 45mins walk, lunchtime gentle walk and then Tabatas PWO.

If you are trying to get that low, are you competing?? If you you know you'll need to alter the format of your cycle?


----------



## Robsta (Oct 2, 2005)

Oh, decided to show your face have you.....

Me and you have to have a serious talk if this relationship is going to work.......


----------



## MXD (Jan 23, 2008)

Its the fact that chris thib and other t-nationers reccomend the 10*lmb deficit. And so far I've had good results on it. But I'm going to be doing;

high

low

no

carb days in that order from now on. Also I am mega dosing bcaa/eaa which are incredible..

Thanks for your help all.


----------



## shorty (Mar 13, 2007)

you look pretty ripped so far mate... just get a tan and you'll be rite :thumb:


----------



## adh100 (May 22, 2008)

just read article and found agood site that tells you what your intake should be displaying ratio percentages for Carb, Protien and Fat intake. Tells you what you need to intake to either maintain, cut or increase weight.

link: http://www.hpathy.com/healthtools/calories-need.asp


----------



## Lost Soul (Apr 5, 2008)

MXD said:


> Its the fact that chris thib and other t-nationers reccomend the 10*lmb deficit. And so far I've had good results on it. But I'm going to be doing;
> 
> high
> 
> ...


Is this usual for you?

It is not required as you will get them in food. The trick is to get enough fat not to drop too low on calories



adh100 said:


> just read article and found agood site that tells you what your intake should be displaying ratio percentages for Carb, Protien and Fat intake. Tells you what you need to intake to either maintain, cut or increase weight.
> 
> link: http://www.hpathy.com/healthtools/calories-need.asp


With all dues respect that is not applicable or accurate


----------



## MXD (Jan 23, 2008)

Mega dosing bcaa/eaa is incredible lost soul, you constantly feel fresh never fatigue and hold onto more muscle.

I go when dieting 5g 5* pd inbetween meals

When bulking 7g 5*pd eaa inbetween meals

Training 25g eaa pre with equal amount of carb (this spikes protein synthesis for 3h and causes a large secondary insulin output post training with no other nutrients required!!)

During 35g bcaa

post 10g eaa

If you have the cash try it and you won't regret it.


----------



## Lost Soul (Apr 5, 2008)

MXD said:


> Mega dosing bcaa/eaa is incredible lost soul, you constantly feel fresh never fatigue and hold onto more muscle.
> 
> I go when dieting 5g 5* pd inbetween meals
> 
> ...


Both are so easily sourced in food though. I can understand some saying during a work out or with IGF PWo but realistically ingesting them between meals? not worth it. once you realise how many BCAAs and EAAs are in food you realise its not worth it


----------



## MXD (Jan 23, 2008)

So spiking protein synthesis within 20 mins inbetween meals isn't worth it?

Think about what you are saying.... They stimulate metabolism helping you get leaner and stop muscle being catabolised while on a deficit..

I'd say do not knock it till you've tried it.


----------



## Lost Soul (Apr 5, 2008)

MXD said:


> So spiking protein synthesis within 20 mins inbetween meals isn't worth it?
> 
> *Think about what you are saying*.... They stimulate metabolism helping you get leaner and stop muscle being catabolised while on a deficit..
> 
> I'd say do not knock it till you've tried it.


I have


----------



## Tall (Aug 14, 2007)

MXD said:


> Its the fact that chris thib and other t-nationers reccomend the 10*lmb deficit. And so far I've had good results on it. But I'm going to be doing;
> 
> high
> 
> ...


What did Chris Thib do on his diet where he went from being a huge fatty to not being a fatty...? I dont think it was 10 * lbm, btu I could be wrong.


----------



## MXD (Jan 23, 2008)

Yeah chris thib went lower than 10* lbm and heavily dosed bcaa...


----------



## Tall (Aug 14, 2007)

MXD said:


> Yeah chris thib went lower than 10* lbm and heavily dosed bcaa...


Got a link?


----------



## Five-O (May 21, 2006)

MXD said:


> Alright lads, I'm after the opinions of those who have dieted to sub 6% and how best to acheive it.
> 
> I'm currently dieting and cosuming 10*lbm calories, under 100g carbs per day.
> 
> ...


No need for long term dieting, try reading up on the HCG approach mate, around 3-4 weeks on extremly low cals but with no muscle loss and around a drop of 15-20lbs....I know a handful who've been a success with it, inc a few members on here.


----------



## MXD (Jan 23, 2008)

Cheers Jimmy I'll look into it.


----------



## Lost Soul (Apr 5, 2008)

MXD said:


> Yeah chris thib went lower than 10* lbm and heavily dosed bcaa...


Did he write anything about post prandial hyperaminoacidemia if he was taking these between meals?


----------



## MXD (Jan 23, 2008)

I can' t actually find the op which is annoying but I will keep looking.

As for post prandial hyperaminoacidemia, it would only lead to an increase in nitrogen retention.. I know protein break down increases via more protein oxidation but nitrogen retnetion goes up..


----------



## Lost Soul (Apr 5, 2008)

MXD said:


> I can' t actually find the op which is annoying but I will keep looking.
> 
> As for post prandial hyperaminoacidemia, it would only lead to an increase in nitrogen retention.. I know protein break down increases via more protein oxidation but nitrogen retnetion goes up..


But thats the point, meals allow for the hyperaminoacidemia for hours after ingestion, they dont drop unless you are simply drinking whey shake, even they they stay eleveated for 1 hour. AAs are also insulinogenic, why would you want that spike when dieting all the time?


----------



## Five-O (May 21, 2006)

MXD said:


> Cheers Jimmy I'll look into it.


Mate, you've made some great progress, the avatar looks excellent, I don'ty think it will be hard to achieve what you want to do, your always methodical and research the subject thoroughly, in all fairness more ppl or newbies to gear should follow your example.

Hope it goes well :thumbup1:


----------



## MXD (Jan 23, 2008)

Lost Soul said:


> But thats the point, meals allow for the hyperaminoacidemia for hours after ingestion, they dont drop unless you are simply drinking whey shake, even they they stay eleveated for 1 hour. AAs are also insulinogenic, why would you want that spike when dieting all the time?


Thats also my point.

When you consume a meal/protein source you get an aa spike peaking around 90mins (wpc).

If you consume free form aa they stimulate protein synthesis within 20mins (leucine), leading to increased protein synthesis and nitrogen retention over a 24h period as you'd be triggering more protein synthesis spikes.

The thing with taking free form aa (bcaa in particular) is that you can never acheive such a dramatic spike in protein synthesis from a peptide bound protein. The peptide bound protein would be slowly hydrolysed in your stomach before being released into you blood stream and peaking slowly.

I'll dig out some studies on eaa supplementation leading to increasd nitrogen retention and less mean protein degredation, also the one that shows 20gms eaa pre workout spikes ps for 3h and causing a secondary high insulin spike if taken periwo with no other nutrients needing to be injested.

As for the insulin point, insulin isn't a bad thing. Its anti catabolic and anabolic if there are aa in the blood. Peptide bound protein intake spikes insulin quite higly aswell you know (from the leucine), fats are the only macro that dont cause a specific rise in insulin output.

I mean without the release of insulin translation and transcribtion wouldn't occour as aa themselves wouldn't be able to be uptaken by tissues..


----------



## Lost Soul (Apr 5, 2008)

> I'll dig out some studies


please do



> As for the insulin point, insulin isn't a bad thing.


When dieting?



> fats are the only macro that dont cause a specific rise in insulin output.


Depending on the level of saturation


----------



## Five-O (May 21, 2006)

Lost Soul said:


> please do
> 
> When dieting?
> 
> Depending on the level of saturation


I think your just being a bit pedantic on some of MXD's threads Ive seen tbh mate, cut it out, and while your at it, put some of your pics up.... :cool2:


----------



## Lost Soul (Apr 5, 2008)

Five-O said:


> I think your just being a bit pedantic on some of MXD's threads Ive seen tbh mate, cut it out, and while your at it, put some of your pics up.... :cool2:


Excuse me?


----------



## Five-O (May 21, 2006)

Lost Soul said:


> Excuse me?


fvck me, you've done it again, you answer a post with a question, its beginning to really grind me tbh.

Ok, ill repeat it again just for you...



> think your just being a bit pedantic on some of MXD's threads Ive seen tbh mate, cut it out, and while your at it, put some of your pics up.... :cool2:


----------



## Lost Soul (Apr 5, 2008)

Five-O said:


> fvck me, you've done it again, you answer a post with a question,
> 
> Ok, ill repeat it again just for you...


Sorry my friend

(1) This is a debate, I am asking questions in bullet point form

(2) Are you going to join in or just bait people?

(3) How are my pictures going to aid a debate on AAs?



> its beginning to really grind me tbh.


If its a big issue, block the posts out I type or debate the thread and question the points. Im sorry my personality isnt to your liking


----------



## MXD (Jan 23, 2008)

I can totally agree with Jimmy and see where he's coming from. Your particular style of "debate" is quite arrogant and blunt..

This isn't a war and you sound like you have something to prove. As you say this should be a healthy debate please keep it nice.


----------



## Lost Soul (Apr 5, 2008)

MXD said:


> I can totally agree with Jimmy and see where he's coming from. Your particular style of "debate" is quite arrogant and blunt..
> 
> This isn't a war and you sound like you have something to prove. As you say this should be a healthy debate please keep it nice.


I will move aside then, sorry for trying to help and offer some thoughts


----------



## MXD (Jan 23, 2008)

Insulin is never bad, its essential.

Alot of high insuin spikes over lapping is bad thing, but its hardly going to make you insulin resistant or impare you insulin sensitivety consuming 5gms bcaa inbetween meals.

Also fats don't cause a spike in insulin at all. Levels do rise but very slowly.


----------



## MXD (Jan 23, 2008)

Lost Soul said:


> I will move aside then, sorry for trying to help and offer some thoughts


Don't be like that buddy, I'm just asking for a little common curtesy and a little tackt.


----------



## Five-O (May 21, 2006)

Lost Soul said:


> Sorry my friend
> 
> (1) This is a debate, I am asking questions in bullet point form
> 
> ...


You were not encouraging debate at all, maybe Im a little forthright, I apologise for that, m-tren can get a lot of ppl edgy, you do tend to post a lot of one word replies which end with a "?" though mate, even you must realise tat?

My post was ****y though, and I apologise for that. I am nice and calm now Ive been and trained :thumbup1:


----------



## Tall (Aug 14, 2007)

How long do the AA induced Insulin Spikes last?

If Insulin is continually high then I don't think you will oxidise as many lipids from adipose as you would if catecholamines weren't inhibited, and PKA release could be triggered.

I understand they are anti-catabolic, but you are still on cycle so your protein synthesis will be high anyway.

I know the t-nation guys recommend it, but that doesn't mean you should follow everything they say dude.

Trial it for a week and see what happens


----------

