# Stubborn belly fat!



## MFM (Jul 25, 2013)

I posted this on another forum, but the traffic seems very slow so I'm posting it here as well for some advice.

Age old problem of losing belly fat whilst building muscle.

I'm 6'2", 210lbs, around 20% BF. I was always really skinny when I was younger - typical ectomorph. Been training for years now and have built up a lot of muscle, but the belly just won't go.

About my training - I've recently started following a program where I mostly do compound exercises and do 3 sets of 5 reps for the most demanding exercises. I mostly keep the reps low and heavy, and it seems to be working really well for me. I'm also doing progressive overloading and have been going up in weight every week for the last 6 weeks, so strength is definitely going up. I can't say I've put on any noticeable amount of extra muscle, but maybe it's too soon to tell.

My diet is clean and I eat mostly lean meats, veggies, good fats and low GI carbs, so there isn't much room for improvement there. I take in around 4000 calories a day, give or take.

I do weight training 3 times a week to give myself enough time to recover(training naturally) and I am reluctant to do any cardio as I am afraid it will eat up the little bit of muscle I have.

Any ideas on what I can do to get rid off this belly? The only thing I can think of is to do carb cycling and to take more good fats in as I've limited the fats in an attempt to reduce my own bodyfat.

On a typical day my diet will look something like this.

5:30 - 1 scoop whey, 1 scoop maltodextrin and amino acid

6:30 - Train

7:30 - 1 scoop whey, 1 scoop maltodextrin and amino acid

8:30 - Two slices wholemeal toast with margarine, chicken breast and a bit of salad cream. Coffee.

11:00 - One scoop casein, banana, 2 cups skimmed milk.

13:30 - Beef burger with 250g lean beef mince, 2 teaspoons spicy pesto, 1 whole egg, steamed mixed vegetables, 4 fish oil capsules.

16:00 - 1 scoop casein, two tablespoons peanut butter, 2 cups skimmed milk.

19:00 - Chicken breast, omelette with 2 whole eggs and 3 egg whites, large spinach and carrot salad with chopped apple, 30g of cashew nuts, cider vinegar, 5 fish oil capsules.

22:00 - 1 scoop casein, 1 cup natural yogurt, 2 cups skimmed milk.

Training.

Monday - upper body.

- Military press with barbell, 3x5

- Upright row with barbell, 3x5

- Chin ups, 3x8

- Swissball shoulder press with dumbbells, 2x6

- Bicep curls, 2x6

- Tricep pullovers on flat bench, 2x8

- Hammer curl and press, 2x10

- Dips, 2x10

- Cable tricep extension with bicep curl superset.

Wednesday - legs and core.

- Squats, 5x5

- Good mornings, 3x10

- Reverse crunch, 2x10

- Cable woodchopper, 2x10

- Saxon side bends

Friday - upper body.

- Similar to Monday but instead of shoulders I do chest.


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## The Cheese (Sep 22, 2012)

Dieting and eating at a calorie deficit is the only way to lose fat.

So basically, you need to sort out your priorities - Deficit and lose fat or Surplus, add muscle but also add fat.


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## MFM (Jul 25, 2013)

So there is no way to build lean muscle??


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## bobbydrake (Nov 19, 2012)

Get rid of the margerine and replace with butter (marg is very bad for you) and change the skimmed milk to full fat milk. Your body won't store healthy fats you are eating as fat. I managed to lose all the weight round my middle and put on some muscle at the same time so it is possible. I just ate low carb and weight trained - didn't do any cardio except a bit of hiit training. Maybe cut out the whey and malto before you train and train fasted in the morning like I do? Cut out the wheat as well as wheat and gluten have been linked to fat round your stomach.


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## mrssalvatore (Apr 13, 2013)

Nothing really related but what margarine are you using as its not been in sale in the uk for a good few years ! They're are plenty of alternatives maybe its one of those you're using ??


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## MFM (Jul 25, 2013)

bobbydrake said:


> Get rid of the margerine and replace with butter (marg is very bad for you) and change the skimmed milk to full fat milk. Your body won't store healthy fats you are eating as fat. I managed to lose all the weight round my middle and put on some muscle at the same time so it is possible. I just ate low carb and weight trained - didn't do any cardio except a bit of hiit training. Maybe cut out the whey and malto before you train and train fasted in the morning like I do? Cut out the wheat as well as wheat and gluten have been linked to fat round your stomach.


Cheers for the info. I probably forgot to mention, I'm trying to get big. I know doing so and staying lean is nigh on impossible when training naturally. I don't just want to tone up, but put on as much extra muscle as I possibly can.

Saying that, looking at some of the avatars here, there's a lot of big guys really lean, so how do they do it??


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## dalboy (Sep 16, 2009)

By lean bulking .

Cut to a weight and look you are happy with while keeping training intensity high, then lean bulk.

If you are on a calorie deficit to lose body fat, then you will find it very difficult to build muscle.

Workouts to me seem a bit all over the place. Search on here for a simpler 3 day split - 5x5, PPL etc...


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## bobbydrake (Nov 19, 2012)

MFM said:


> Cheers for the info. I probably forgot to mention, I'm trying to get big. I know doing so and staying lean is nigh on impossible when training naturally. I don't just want to tone up, but put on as much extra muscle as I possibly can.
> 
> Saying that, looking at some of the avatars here, there's a lot of big guys really lean, so how do they do it??


If you are trying to get big then eating more healthy fats is a must. Its not impossible to lose fat and put on muscle - its just really hard. Stick to a low carb diet - plenty of protein. Probably stick to maltodextrin straight after your workout.


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## Ricky12345 (Jun 13, 2012)

bobbydrake said:


> Get rid of the margerine and replace with butter (marg is very bad for you) and change the skimmed milk to full fat milk. Your body won't store healthy fats you are eating as fat. I managed to lose all the weight round my middle and put on some muscle at the same time so it is possible. I just ate low carb and weight trained - didn't do any cardio except a bit of hiit training. Maybe cut out the whey and malto before you train and train fasted in the morning like I do? Cut out the wheat as well as wheat and gluten have been linked to fat round your stomach.


Hi mate do u weight train fasted ? I'm thinking on doing this but am worried off losing muscle


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## bobbydrake (Nov 19, 2012)

Ricky12345 said:


> Hi mate do u weight train fasted ? I'm thinking on doing this but am worried off losing muscle


Yes I never eat anything pre training at 6am - I will take some BCAA's/Amino Acids before and some Greens powder (which is supposed to help with lowering cortisol). Then within 15 minutes of weight lifting I will have the whey and malto then breakfast when I get to work. I have definately put some muscle on and lost weight doing this - especially considering I didn't have any muscle to start with


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## MFM (Jul 25, 2013)

bobbydrake said:


> Yes I never eat anything pre training at 6am - I will take some BCAA's/Amino Acids before and some Greens powder (which is supposed to help with lowering cortisol). Then within 15 minutes of weight lifting I will have the whey and malto then breakfast when I get to work. I have definately put some muscle on and lost weight doing this - especially considering I didn't have any muscle to start with


That is very interesting!

I was told to never do weight training on an empty stomach as you've got nothing to fuel the workout, and you will actually break down any potential muscle.

At this stage I'm willing to try anything so what are other people's view on this?


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## 2004mark (Oct 26, 2013)

The Cheese said:


> Dieting and eating at a calorie deficit is the only way to lose fat.
> 
> So basically, you need to sort out your priorities - Deficit and lose fat or Surplus, add muscle but also add fat.


This.

OP, You got the advice you needed right here.



MFM said:


> So there is no way to build lean muscle??


What do you mean by lean muscle... all muscle is lean. But it's not just building muscle you seem to be interested in... you want to shift your gut right?



bobbydrake said:


> Get rid of the margerine and replace with butter (marg is very bad for you) and change the skimmed milk to full fat milk. Your body won't store healthy fats you are eating as fat. I managed to lose all the weight round my middle and put on some muscle at the same time so it is possible. I just ate low carb and weight trained - didn't do any cardio except a bit of hiit training. Maybe cut out the whey and malto before you train and train fasted in the morning like I do? Cut out the wheat as well as wheat and gluten have been linked to fat round your stomach.


Some good advice in there somewhere... but surrounded with a lot of poor advice too.

OP. You need to set a goal. Build muscle or lose fat (especially being an experienced natural trainer).

Recomping (loosing fat and adding muscle) is possible, but only really to a drastic extent when you make big changes to your training. The biggest one is when you start training (as it sounds like bobbydrake was doing), or the next biggest one is when you start taking steroids (not advocating it btw... but a fact)


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## bobbydrake (Nov 19, 2012)

2004mark said:


> This.
> 
> OP, You got the advice you needed right here.
> 
> ...


What do you consider was poor advice (not being funny - genuinely interested)? You are right by the way - I only started weight training last year so was completely new to it. So any info I've given is what I've found to work (and I realise it won't necessarily work for someone else).


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## Robbie (Dec 31, 2007)

bobbydrake said:


> Your body won't store healthy fats you are eating as fat. Cut out the wheat as well as wheat and gluten have been linked to fat round your stomach.


Excuse me?


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## MFM (Jul 25, 2013)

You guys are not filling me with confidence. Lol

So I have two choices, eat less and lose the belly, but stay small

OR

Eat more, get an even bigger belly, but get big?

I hate having fat around my midsection!! I wouldn't mind it so much if the rest of my body got quite a lot bigger, but the way I see it is, if I eat more to get bigger, I will add so much extra fat that it will drive me insane.

There must be a way to shift this belly AND get bigger naturally! I'm willing to do whatever it takes.


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## bobbydrake (Nov 19, 2012)

Robbie said:


> Excuse me?


You are excused! 

What do you have a problem with - As far as I'm aware (and I'm far from an expert) you do need to eat healthy fats (almonds/rapeseed oil etc) and when you eat carbs (especially simple carbs) your body is likely to store them as fat. As for wheat/gluten there are plenty of studies showing their harmful effect on the body (celiacs for instance).


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## 25081 (Nov 24, 2011)

If you're eating a cal surplus, you will build muscle and probably add some fat. A cal defecit will burn fat and in all likelihood, some muscle. As someone has mentioned, if you want the best of both, cut down to a size you're happy with and then play with your diet. If you eat more and see you're gaining fat, lower the cals. If the fat is still coming off and no muscle is being built, up the cals. You new to find your balance, although it will take some time!


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## MFM (Jul 25, 2013)

ShaneB said:


> If you're eating a cal surplus, you will build muscle and probably add some fat. A cal defecit will burn fat and in all likelihood, some muscle. As someone has mentioned, if you want the best of both, cut down to a size you're happy with and then play with your diet. If you eat more and see you're gaining fat, lower the cals. If the fat is still coming off and no muscle is being built, up the cals. You new to find your balance, although it will take some time!


I've been doing just this for the last year and a half. End of last year I reduced my calories to the point where I almost completely lost my gut, but no amount of training put on anymore muscle. Then I increased my calorie intake slowly to where I started getting too fat. I'm now at a point in between. If I eat more, I will defo put on more fat and if I eat less, I can train until I'm f*cked, but I won't put on any muscle.

Now you understand why I want to kill myself.


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## 2004mark (Oct 26, 2013)

bobbydrake said:


> What do you consider was poor advice (not being funny - genuinely interested)? You are right by the way - I only started weight training last year so was completely new to it. So any info I've given is what I've found to work (and I realise it won't necessarily work for someone else).


Well if you want to get into the whole good fat v bad fat then butter and milk aren't considered good. They are natural yes, but not high in omega 3s (whereas some margarines can be higher). Personally I don't have an issue with eating natural fats at all... but they won't help you lose body fat, tbh no fats will. Good fats are more a consideration for overall health rather than from a pure weight gain/loss. All fats contain 9 cals per gram.

Also, presuming you don't have any intolerances, there's nothing particularly wrong with wheat.


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## 25081 (Nov 24, 2011)

MFM said:


> I've been doing just this for the last year and a half. End of last year I reduced my calories to the point where I almost completely lost my gut, but no amount of training put on anymore muscle. Then I increased my calorie intake slowly to where I started getting too fat. I'm now at a point in between. If I eat more, I will defo put on more fat and if I eat less, I can train until I'm f*cked, but I won't put on any muscle.
> 
> Now you understand why I want to kill myself.


What do you want us to say then? Lol. Either do what I said or bulk then cut then bulk then cut. You can look into intermittent fasting or carb cycling or keto I suppose. Lots of different styles out there. Or if you are actually willing to do 'anything', get on the gear.


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## 2004mark (Oct 26, 2013)

MFM said:


> I've been doing just this for the last year and a half. End of last year I reduced my calories to the point where I almost completely lost my gut, but no amount of training put on anymore muscle. Then I increased my calorie intake slowly to where I started getting too fat. I'm now at a point in between. If I eat more, I will defo put on more fat and if I eat less, I can train until I'm f*cked, but I won't put on any muscle.
> 
> Now you understand why I want to kill myself.


It's the way it is mate.

You just have to make sure when you're in a bulking phase try to keep bodyfat to a manageable level, so then when you cut you can do so relatively quickly so you don't lose too much muscle.

Personally I would also look at your training. You really need to be pushing the boundaries week on week and your programme doesn't look indicative to that for me. I might be wrong though. I would base it around four main exercises - pull (deadlift), push (bench), legs (squat) and shoulder (oh press) - and try to improve on them most weeks.

It might be worth you reading about carb backloading, a few people on here who really know their shit talk highly of it from a lean bulk perspective... but I've not tried myself yet.


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## MFM (Jul 25, 2013)

ShaneB said:


> Or if you are actually willing to do 'anything', get on the gear.


I've thought about this for years now, but I decided to do it the hard way. I don't like being dependent on anything, and besides, you can't stay on the gear forever. What happens when you finally come off it? I know too many people who got so demotivated after they've come off the gear, that they completely stopped training.


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## bobbydrake (Nov 19, 2012)

TBH I would stay well clear of margerine - it contains trans fat which has been linked to visceral belly fat (the kind the OP is trying to get rid of) which can also cause diabetes/cancer etc etc. I do agree the eating lots of butter wouldn't help you lose weight but I would replace any unhealthy fats with poly & monosaturated fats. Also if you are trying to eat low fat you are more likely to eat highly processed food (for instance low fat yogurt just had added sugar whereas you are better eating plain greek yogurt). Same for wheat - its been tinkered with a fair bit over the years - the wheat that is around now is totally different from wheat that was eaten 50 years ago. There is a really good book called Wheat Belly - but its each to their own - what works for one person doesn't work for another so its just a case of reading as much as possible and getting lots of advice and choosing/trying what you want to do.


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## Sambuca (Jul 25, 2012)

if your ecto and blood type o you will struggle. if your like me you will be insulin resistant as well which only makes this game even harder!

low/0 carbs is the answer, plenty of water, hiit training 4 x per week. i got my abs out in a about 8 weeks in my avi but i used a lot of peds on top.

check your polquin body type (just google it)

also as said as ecto u really need to obliterate your self in the gym. till failure then some


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## Robbie (Dec 31, 2007)

bobbydrake said:


> You are excused!
> 
> What do you have a problem with - As far as I'm aware (and I'm far from an expert) you do need to eat healthy fats (almonds/rapeseed oil etc) and when you eat carbs (especially simple carbs) your body is likely to store them as fat. As for wheat/gluten there are plenty of studies showing their harmful effect on the body (celiacs for instance).


Your body won't store healthy fats as fat you said... Does that mean I can eat as much as I like and not gain any weight?


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## MFM (Jul 25, 2013)

Sambuca said:


> if your ecto and blood type o you will struggle. if your like me you will be insulin resistant as well which only makes this game even harder!
> 
> low/0 carbs is the answer, plenty of water, hiit training 4 x per week. i got my abs out in a about 8 weeks in my avi but i used a lot of peds on top.
> 
> ...


Finally, someone who understands my predicament! :laugh: It's got all to do with body composition, and so far no one has really touched on that apart from you.

I can certainly drop most of the carbs, but what do you replace it with to make up the calories? Just more protein and fats?


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## bobbydrake (Nov 19, 2012)

Robbie said:


> Your body won't store healthy fats as fat you said... Does that mean I can eat as much as I like and not gain any weight?


No I wouldn't eat as much fat as you wanted - everything in moderation 

Eating more (healthy) fat is useful both from a health position and getting your calories up if you are restricting carbs. There are so many people in my work who avoid fat like the plague and eat tons of weight watcher type food. They may lose some weight temporarily but it doesn't stay off - I went low carb about 16 months ago and the fat around my middle hasn't come back. I eat plenty of almond butter most days/use rapeseed oil/full fat milk etc. Fat also helps to keep you feeling full for longer than carbs.


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## bobbydrake (Nov 19, 2012)

MFM said:


> Finally, someone who understands my predicament! :laugh: It's got all to do with body composition, and so far no one has really touched on that apart from you.
> 
> I can certainly drop most of the carbs, but what do you replace it with to make up the calories? Just more protein and fats?


I get my biosig done occasionally as I have a personal trainer who does this - I do really rate the poliquin biosig which is calipers on various sites in the body. Yes more protein and fats - look up some ideal percentages for protein/fat/carbs and try to keep your carbs the complex kind (vegetables/berries/quinoa etc).


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## Marshan (Aug 27, 2010)

MFM said:


> You guys are not filling me with confidence. Lol
> 
> So I have two choices, eat less and lose the belly, but stay small
> 
> ...


Lose the fat first...then when youre lean enough, eat to grow with minimal carbs. I eat almost no carbs...no spuds no rice certainly no white bread, sugary tea is a problem for me though..but Im eating so little carbs from other sources it's not an issue. On a no carb diet fat (and sadly some muscle too) will fall off you, but getting back into carbs is tricky to get right so you dont just dump it all back on again. Seriously, Id go through the pain of losing fat before trying to fill out/recomp lean. It seems to be the easiest way for most people from what I've seen.


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## Sambuca (Jul 25, 2012)

MFM said:


> Finally, someone who understands my predicament! :laugh: It's got all to do with body composition, and so far no one has really touched on that apart from you.
> 
> I can certainly drop most of the carbs, but what do you replace it with to make up the calories? Just more protein and fats?


lots of proteins and fats e.g

breakfast

6-9 whole eggs + spinach

snack - bag of chashew nuts + 2 scoops of protein

lean steak - 250g green veg

bag of cashews/almonds 2 scoops of whey

intra workout BCAA

Post workout

whey + 2 slice of pineapple

steak + green veg

casein whey

cook everything in 1cal olive oil spray but feel free to add extra virgin olive oil to meals or shakes. use salt and pepper but no sauces lol

supplement with a good omega 3 approx 6000mg ED

this is just an example but you have to be strict. it is easy to get to 3000cals a day from just fats and protein.

i did that but had a cheat meal on a saturday night and a low GI carb up on sunday morning. So pancakes and crumpets with jam no butter. this will help u to stay looking full. but tbh the lower weight u get the flatter u will get. salt on ur meals will help also.

plenty of water 6litres + ED

its a tough game and tbh without drugs you cannot lean bulk ime/o


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## MFM (Jul 25, 2013)

Sambuca said:


> lots of proteins and fats e.g
> 
> breakfast
> 
> ...


Great info!! Cheers bud.

I got what I came for and feel a lot happier now. I accept the fact that I might not be able to look like Arnie if I don't juice, but at least I can shake off this flabby belly.


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## Sambuca (Jul 25, 2012)

get a journal up!


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## 2004mark (Oct 26, 2013)

bobbydrake said:


> TBH I would stay well clear of margerine - it contains trans fat which has been linked to visceral belly fat (the kind the OP is trying to get rid of) which can also cause diabetes/cancer etc etc. I do agree the eating lots of butter wouldn't help you lose weight but I would replace any unhealthy fats with poly & monosaturated fats. Also if you are trying to eat low fat you are more likely to eat highly processed food (for instance low fat yogurt just had added sugar whereas you are better eating plain greek yogurt). Same for wheat - its been tinkered with a fair bit over the years - the wheat that is around now is totally different from wheat that was eaten 50 years ago. There is a really good book called Wheat Belly - but its each to their own - what works for one person doesn't work for another so its just a case of reading as much as possible and getting lots of advice and choosing/trying what you want to do.


I'm really not trying to take one or the other on fats (or wheat for that matter)... as far as I'm concerned, from a bb'ing point of view they all contain 9 cals per gram.

I just don't think a poster with a relatively simple goal such as MFM needs to worry about this stuff... I certainly don't.

The single two most important things he should be doing is 1) making sure he's eating the right amount of calories to suit his goal, and 2) make sure he's getting enough of those calories from protein.

As far as I'm concerned good fats, bad fats... it's all unnecessary noise. There are people in gyms up and down the country who don't have a clue about this stuff... it doesn't stop them being big and ripped.


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## MFM (Jul 25, 2013)

Do you need a certain amount of posts before you can send a PM?

Btw, can anyone point me towards some low/no carb diets please? I need ideas so I can go and do some shopping!


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## bobbydrake (Nov 19, 2012)

MFM said:


> Do you need a certain amount of posts before you can send a PM?
> 
> Btw, can anyone point me towards some low/no carb diets please? I need ideas so I can go and do some shopping!


Yes you do need a certain number (and possibly a member for a month or so?). There are plenty of low/no carb diets online - pretty easy to work out yourself anyway. Low carb would be all meats/fish/eggs/veg/some fruit such as berries - no carb would cut out veg and fruit so not suitable for more than a week or two (look up ketones). Look up Atkins type diets for examples. Swap white potatoes for sweet potatoes/quinoa instead of rice - no wheat/cereals etc.


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## MFM (Jul 25, 2013)

I'm going to cut all carbs apart from my post workout carb intake, and then just vegetables for the rest of the day and lots of protein and moderate fats.

Will see how it goes!


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## MFM (Jul 25, 2013)

Just went shopping and realized I've just bought a load of stuff that might be on the 'do not eat' list if I want to cut out the carbs.

Should I ditch all dairy products apart from maybe cheese? I never realized but milk has lots of sugars, and I drink lots of milk!! Same with natural yogurt. And how about sweetener for coffee instead of cane sugar? And powdered milk instead of regular milk?

I might be wrong and can eat all of this stuff, so a bit of help would be appreciated!


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## Peacock7 (Mar 10, 2013)

MFM said:


> You guys are not filling me with confidence. Lol
> 
> So I have two choices, eat less and lose the belly, but stay small
> 
> ...


whats the rush man sheesh, things like this take time you know. Either bulk now cut later or cut now bulk later, either way to get bigger you are going to have to eat the extra calories past maintenance to repair muscles hence make them bigger


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## WrightStar (Nov 20, 2012)

You may not be an expert just yet but in the future you will be! Strong is the potential in you, young padiwan! Haha oj fella, I'm same as you, all about low carbs (around keytone mark so 60 grams tops) and then just compensate by upping those good fats (get the cod liver oil on board) and then just smash the granny out of the protein (my main source being mackerel and chicken). Consequently we watch the fat slide off spartan esque physiques and carry on advocating the benefits of the low-carb lifestyle  It is the only way for nattys!



bobbydrake said:


> You are excused!
> 
> What do you have a problem with - As far as I'm aware (and I'm far from an expert) you do need to eat healthy fats (almonds/rapeseed oil etc) and when you eat carbs (especially simple carbs) your body is likely to store them as fat. As for wheat/gluten there are plenty of studies showing their harmful effect on the body (celiacs for instance).


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## WrightStar (Nov 20, 2012)

Finding the balance is definitely no easy feet - but just get loads of good fats on board and carry on with really low carbs until your body makes the transition to converting the fats to carbs! Win win!



MFM said:


> I've been doing just this for the last year and a half. End of last year I reduced my calories to the point where I almost completely lost my gut, but no amount of training put on anymore muscle. Then I increased my calorie intake slowly to where I started getting too fat. I'm now at a point in between. If I eat more, I will defo put on more fat and if I eat less, I can train until I'm f*cked, but I won't put on any muscle.
> 
> Now you understand why I want to kill myself.


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