# Squats: Essential, or overrated?



## nWo (Mar 25, 2014)

*Squats*​
*Overrated or nah?*

You MUST do squats unless you want chicken legs forever!616.67%They're a great exercise, but I could live without them I suppose2261.11%I don't get the hype822.22%


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## nWo (Mar 25, 2014)

Thought I'd get a poll going here and see what people's opinions are.

My thoughts are, they're the most overrated exercise of all time, after I find myself ditching them from my routine once again. Sure, they do work, but people on the internet parrot the same spiel about squats over and over like they're trying to sell you something. I truly don't believe they're the holy grail to gains that some people seem to think they are.

If you list the benefits of squats, then list the benefits of deadlift variants such as the SLDL, Romanian DL, or just the classic deadlift itself or its known form variations, you'll notice how similar they are in terms of the benefits experienced. The main exception is the level of quad activation, which naturally is much greater in a squat than any deadlift variation - however, other compound quad exercises, such as the leg press or hack squat, or even lunges and step ups, are shown in EMG studies to exhibit similar quad activation to squats. Obviously, the latter two are much more limited in terms of progressive overload potential, so obviously not advisable as a main quad exercise - however, the potential for progressive overload on secondary exercises such as the leg press or hack squat, is just as great as the barbell squat. All in all, for me, the squat just seems like such a fu**ing high effort exercise for something that's practically non-essential to my goals. Call me a lazy c**t, I probably am, but I see it as saving my energy for something more beneficial.

I of course understand that many enjoy their powerlifting and squat because they genuinely enjoy it, but I'm not one of those people. I train to get big, and I fully understand that lifting some heavy s**t is a component to long term results, but again I can cover that base with deadlift variants and leg presses or hack squats. Before I wrap up, I should also insert the obligatory example of a guy who grew huge quads without squats, leg pressing a s**t-tonne of weight as a main exercise instead.

Anyway, /rant. Do chip in with your vote and/or thoughts.


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## AestheticManlet (Jun 12, 2012)

I rate squats. Always done at start of leg routine aiming for progressive overload.

Probably not necessary but I do like squatting once numbers started getting higher.

I'm sure I could add more leg pressing or something and achieve similar results but there's something about hitting the main compounds I feel necessary.

Same concept as deadlifts. They are not needed for aesthetics infact they can somewhat hinder aesthetics and there are alternatives to building a big back but I still feel need to do them.


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## Stephen9069 (Dec 11, 2013)

I personally rate squats even though im s**t at them im tall and have struggled for years with them.

I train at home and like to stick with the compound movements and throw in a few accessory lifts but then my main goal has always been strength.

From an aesthetics point of view I think there is better options.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Certainly not essential.

Squats are a poor hamstring exercise but good for quads and glutes. There are loads of other good exercises for these though.

(For me the barbell bench press is a more overrated exercise than squats but that's another thread  .)


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## Matt6210 (Feb 15, 2018)

Watched a video the other day with Yates talking about how f**ked Ronnie is saying it was down to his squating and deadlifting, says he didn't squat heavy and only did partial deadlifts at end of sessions.


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

Squats, preformed properly and intensely, are one of the best 'bang for your buck' exercises, but they are by no means essential to developing great legs and you can easily construct a complete leg routine without them.

Agreat example of someone who built great legs without squats is none other than @Pscarb who, after breaking his back in a horrible accident, replaced squats with leg presses as a main leg exercise and built some excellent pins.

One reason why squats can be limiting to some people is how systemically fatiguing they can be - they don't just exhaust your thighs but they can exhaust your CV and CNS too, and some people don't cope with that as well as others.

Personally I love the challenge of squats, and will most likely always include them, but I firmly believe that great legs can definitely be built without them.


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## swole troll (Apr 15, 2015)

i love the squat and think anyone capable should squat however you could get similar sized legs with a myriad of machines and lunges 
but why would you ?

squatting heavy is fun and a more efficient way of building functional muscle


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Matt6210 said:


> Watched a video the other day with Yates talking about how f**ked Ronnie is saying it was down to his squating and deadlifting, says he didn't squat heavy and only did partial deadlifts at end of sessions.


 Think I watched the same video:


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## Matt6210 (Feb 15, 2018)

Ultrasonic said:


> Think I watched the same video:


 Yes mate, I think when you get as strong as Ronnie or Dorian squating the stupid weight they could shift on a regular basis is just going to seriously f**k you up(Ronnie Coleman) knees, back...

to the average gym goer or even bodybuilder the weight there're squating isn't to the extreme so no reason not to squat.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Matt6210 said:


> Yes mate, I think when you get as strong as Ronnie or Dorian squating the stupid weight they could shift on a regular basis is just going to seriously f**k you up(Ronnie Coleman) knees, back...
> 
> to the average gym goer or even bodybuilder the weight there're squating isn't to the extreme so no reason not to squat.


 So why don't you squat?


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## Matt6210 (Feb 15, 2018)

Ultrasonic said:


> So why don't you squat?


 Have been mate!!!

looking a little bigger!! :thumb

getting back on in 3 weeks going to train legs properly for first time ever while being on!


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## Heavyassweights (Jan 18, 2014)

Love hate relationship with squats, pick them up and drop them all the time.

Not essential but fun nonetheless when form on point.


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## Heavyassweights (Jan 18, 2014)

Matt6210 said:


> Have been mate!!!
> 
> looking a little bigger!! :thumb
> 
> ...


 Your mrs has nice legs mate x


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## nWo (Mar 25, 2014)

swole troll said:


> i love the squat and think anyone capable should squat however you could get similar sized legs with a myriad of machines and lunges
> but why would you ?
> 
> squatting heavy is fun and a more efficient way of building functional muscle


 See, I hate squats. Always have done. I can't really be arsed to carry on training once I've done them where they're so heavy going, they've never "felt" good for me, and I just feel like they take so much effort when I get the same results subbing them out with leg presses, in terms of quad gains, and my glutes respond well to SLDL's and Romanian DLs. So yeah, I see them as totally disposable and given how much I dislike them, I'll take any excuse to get rid of them.


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## nWo (Mar 25, 2014)

dtlv said:


> One reason why squats can be limiting to some people is how systemically fatiguing they can be - they don't just exhaust your thighs but they can exhaust your CV and CNS too, and some people don't cope with that as well as others.


 Likely one of the reasons I can't stand them, I feel like my CNS system takes a bettering pretty quickly and exercises like squats leave me f**ked and just wanting to go home :lol: Whereas I can smash leg presses hard and still be up for continuing the workout. Experience tells me I get similar results from both as I said in the post above, so I've decided if I dislike them that much and I don't actually need to do them, then why do them?


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## swole troll (Apr 15, 2015)

nWo said:


> See, I hate squats. Always have done. I can't really be arsed to carry on training once I've done them where they're so heavy going, they've never "felt" good for me, and I just feel like they take so much effort when I get the same results subbing them out with leg presses, in terms of quad gains, and my glutes respond well to SLDL's and Romanian DLs. So yeah, I see them as totally disposable and given how much I dislike them, I'll take any excuse to get rid of them.


 if your legs are growing fine

you dont enjoy the movement

and youve no intention to compete in strongman or powerlifting

then it makes sense that you dont do them


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

I really don't get how anyone could find squats 'fun'!

For me they're bloody hard work, both physically and to some extent psychologically (as in making myself do the next set).


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## NoGutsNoGloryy (Jan 7, 2013)

only picture I could find showing my legs. This was like 2/3years ago and all I've ever done is squats and sometimes lunges. Only thing is I need my knee cartilage replacing which I think is mainly down to squatting ATG for so many years maybe getting kicked in thighs during thai practice contributed also but squats definitely played a major role imo. So if I was to say it to anybody I'd say not to do deep but just go parallel do what you want I'll still do deep squats tho lol


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

NoGutsNoGloryy said:


>


 Impressive sock pairing skills  .


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## monkeybiker (Jul 21, 2010)

I don't think they are over rated. You don't have to do them but if you are capable of doing them then they are very effective. Same with deadlifts, you don't have to do them but they are very effective.


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## nWo (Mar 25, 2014)

monkeybiker said:


> I don't think they are over rated. You don't have to do them but if you are capable of doing them then they are very effective. Same with deadlifts, you don't have to do them but they are very effective.


 They work, no question about it. However, I say they're overrated because the huge amount of zealots floating around the web that more or less say you must squat, otherwise just don't bother training, or words to that effect. The proportion of members on this site with this kind of backwards thinking is seemingly much smaller than many other forums, that said.


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## swole troll (Apr 15, 2015)

Ultrasonic said:


> I really don't get how anyone could find squats 'fun'!
> 
> For me they're bloody hard work, both physically and to some extent psychologically (as in making myself do the next set).


 but dont you feel that is rewarding to shift a lot of weight (relative to the individual)

my arms have always lagged behind the rest of me so recently i tried adding in an arm day just for the extra volume and as a final avenue to bring them up as ive tried every other approach

i managed about 3 sessions before i packed it in
going to the gym to do something that is so physically untaxing gives me almost 0 drive to go there, its like travelling to the gym to do steady state cardio

while squats, bench and deadlift are the complete opposite 
i enjoy shifting a lot of weight (again relative to me) and i enjoy the feeling i have after the session of physical exhaustion and knowing ive caused a large amount of muscle stimulus.


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## ILLBehaviour (Dec 20, 2014)

great exercise but agree with what dorian says about them not being suited to everyone.


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## nWo (Mar 25, 2014)

swole troll said:


> but dont you feel that is rewarding to shift a lot of weight (relative to the individual)
> 
> my arms have always lagged behind the rest of me so recently i tried adding in an arm day just for the extra volume and as a final avenue to bring them up as ive tried every other approach
> 
> ...


 Pretty much the opposite for me, suppose I'm more of a volume freak than I realised :lol: Knowing I've gotta go to the gym and load up a couple of hundred kilos on my shoulders is never my idea of fun, in fact I dread it. Doing really big movements like this as well drains me and I can only do a few more smaller exercises afterwards, and I personally find a more sustained attack a lot more satisfying. If I can get 6-7 exercises in within an hour and smash them all hard and make some progress, to me that's a satisfying session, and knowing that I'm not gonna feel like I've been hit by a train after trying to run from it for a minute or two first after the first exercise makes the whole thing less daunting. That, and no matter what the exercise, if I've got both my heavy work in, made a bit of progress and also finished off with a solid pump, that's sufficient to make me feel like I've stimulated growth :thumbup1:


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## arbffgadm100 (Jun 3, 2016)

What @swole troll said..

Personally, I can't think of a good reason not to squat (as in, barbell). But that is because I love it. Beating my log book in the squat is probably 80% the reason I lift weights and try to progress, these days.

But, if you don't love it, then just don't do it, mate. Plenty of compound leg work out there: hacks, leg press, bulgarians, etc.

It's like saying "do you need to barbell bench press?"

The answer is, do you hell.

I haven't trained bench or in fact done any regular horizontal pushing in about two years, and my upper body development and strength hasn't suffered at all. In fact, each time I do test my bench 1-5RM, it has gone up.

I think provided you are not trying to succeed in SM/PL and are chasing strength increases *in some form of compound exercise*, you're fine almost regardless of what you do.


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## arbffgadm100 (Jun 3, 2016)

As an aside, in 2014 I did an experiment where from NYD I squatted "every day of the year" (until I went on holiday in May then chinned it off when I came back, haha) and during this time did nothing else apart from 1 work sets of back or OHP a couple of times a week. Every single bit of me grew during that 5 months.

I do think the squat and deadlift have something special about them. I think (rather unscientifically) that there's something about the systemic overload they provide that outstrips the overload you could otherwise get from anything else, not so much in terms of leg hypertrophy (as you can get this from machines or Bulgarians, etc), but in terms of maintenance (and in my anecdotal case; progression) in total body hypertrophy and strength. @swole troll, interested to hear your thoughts about whether there is anything about just massive poundages that is "special".


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## arbffgadm100 (Jun 3, 2016)

Or I could put it another way..

In my personal experience (of training myself, not others, to be clear), if I had to pick just one exercise to do for the rest of my life (...and I was not allowed to pick the Olympic lifts, lol), it would be a tough call between the DL or SQ.

Head says, "DL" (better upper body devleopment), but my heart for sure says, "SQUAT MOTHER****ER".


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## swole troll (Apr 15, 2015)

arbffgadm100 said:


> As an aside, in 2014 I did an experiment where from NYD I squatted "every day of the year" (until I went on holiday in May then chinned it off when I came back, haha) and during this time did nothing else apart from 1 work sets of back or OHP a couple of times a week. Every single bit of me grew during that 5 months.
> 
> I do think the squat and deadlift have something special about them. I think (rather unscientifically) that there's something about the systemic overload they provide that outstrips the overload you could otherwise get from anything else, not so much in terms of leg hypertrophy (as you can get this from machines or Bulgarians, etc), but in terms of maintenance (and in my anecdotal case; progression) in total body hypertrophy and strength. @swole troll, interested to hear your thoughts about whether there is anything about just massive poundages that is "special".


 with those 3 movements you are covering all muscles which is why you didnt lose any size

your chest may have lost a small amount of size as youre only really slightly engaging the upper pec with submaximal weight with OHP

but squatting every day obviously covers the lower body sufficiently and then your back exercises your back

there was talk in the past of transient hormone fluctuations like GH and test spiking when doing squats and deads but that was later debunked as being useless in terms of any notable gains

i think its just the fact you followed a Bulgarian light style method which to the vast majority of people is a novel stimulus so your body responded accordingly and grew 
this is why it is prudent to switch up your training approach throughout the years irrelevant of overall goal

strength train, high frequency, high volume, upper lower, full body, splits, bulgarian method, smolov ect

whether your goal is strongman, powerlifting or bodybuilding all would benefit from periodizing throughout the years to keep adapting and becoming bigger and stronger


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## swole troll (Apr 15, 2015)

arbffgadm100 said:


> Or I could put it another way..
> 
> In my personal experience (of training myself, not others, to be clear), if I had to pick just one exercise to do for the rest of my life (...and I was not allowed to pick the Olympic lifts, lol), it would be a tough call between the DL or SQ.
> 
> Head says, "DL" (better upper body devleopment), but my heart for sure says, "SQUAT MOTHER****ER".


 i think id go for squat

youd have big legs and still a developed back from squatting heavy whereas a deadlift your legs would not be so big but your back would be better however i feel the squat would put overall more muscle on you than a deadlift would long term if it was the only exercise you were doing


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## Jakemaguire (Feb 17, 2016)

The stronger my 8rm on the squat gets the more overall mass I gain, not just leg size


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## arbffgadm100 (Jun 3, 2016)

swole troll said:


> with those 3 movements you are covering all muscles which is why you didnt lose any size
> 
> your chest may have lost a small amount of size as youre only really slightly engaging the upper pec with submaximal weight with OHP
> 
> ...


 I know buddy. I purposefully stuck to 1-3 work sets of back/OHP per week to ensure that adequate recovery resources could be put into the squat. What I was saying was, I didn't just maintain my size. I gained it. Everywhere. And I gained strength in things like the bench press, simply by, in the vast majority, squatting.

There's clearly a lot to be said for a novel stimulus in terms of periodization, at a movement you're already good at. Personally, I am more of an Eric Helms in my view that novel stimulus in terms of exercise selection is not only unnecessary but probably over the very long term deleterious to performance (albeit, probably kinder on your joints). I did try Smolov once but never even managed to complete the prescribed workouts for the foundation phase. I think if I ever tried it again I would do it on a boat load of PEDs and even then probably use my true 1RM minus 10% or so for the calculations, lol.

Either way, I love squats. <3


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## arbffgadm100 (Jun 3, 2016)

Jakemaguire said:


> The stronger my 8rm on the squat gets the more overall mass I gain, not just leg size


 This.

It's what I was trying to say above. I just don't think the systemic growth and strength you get from squats would come from leg pressing. Regardless of the weight.


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## arbffgadm100 (Jun 3, 2016)

swole troll said:


> i think id go for squat
> 
> youd have big legs and still a developed back from squatting heavy whereas a deadlift your legs would not be so big but your back would be better however i feel the squat would put overall more muscle on you than a deadlift would long term if it was the only exercise you were doing


 Cool. I'd still pick C+J probbaly IRL (if real life involved a gun put to my head and being told I could only do one thing for what remained of it lol)


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## Fadi (Dec 14, 2010)

Ultrasonic said:


> I really don't get how anyone could find squats 'fun'!


 If you're a bodybuilder, and this section is about advance bodybuilding, then I would not expect you to find them fun, but then again the question itself is irrelevant. In other words, you're a bodybuilder, so why are you squatting when your sport does not call for it. If you're doing it, then you're doing it by choice, out of want and never out of need. Similarly, if you're a powerlifter, and you've chosen to include front squats in your program, then just like the bodybuilder who's doing back squats, you're doing it through choice and want and not out of need to do so. On the other hand, if you're an Olympic weightlifter, then there's a need to do both, as one resembles coming out of a clean (the front squat), and the other resembles driving out of a deep snatch (back squat).

I found both the front and back squats "fun" because they were some of the easiest exercises when compared with much more difficult ones I was performing at the time. For an OW to say he views squats as an isolation exercise is true, because when compared to his competition lifts, they are isolation movements done with a relaxed mind due to the technical factor being left out of the equation (no thought about lifting technique involved compared say to nailing a snatch lift ... squats become a natural movement done for relaxation and fun), and of course to get as strong as a beast in the leg and glutes departments.


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## swole troll (Apr 15, 2015)

Fadi said:


> . Similarly, if you're a powerlifter, and you've chosen to include front squats in your program, then just like the bodybuilder who's doing back squats, you're doing it through choice and want and not out of need to do so.


 this part in particular really puts it into perspective for me as to why some might not squat even though i personally love the exercise

i train predominantly for powerlifting so have no choice to but fortunately do enjoy the back squat however i cannot stand front squats, absolutely hate them and as such i never have them programmed in despite them having carry over to my long term goals


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Fadi said:


> If you're a bodybuilder, and this section is about advance bodybuilding, then I would not expect you to find them fun, but then again the question itself is irrelevant. In other words, you're a bodybuilder, so why are you squatting when your sport does not call for it.


 I squat primarily for the purpose of making my quads bigger and stronger, for a mix of aesthetics and health. The process of actually squating isn't pleasurable though.

To answer @swole troll's earlier question my feeling after completing each set is I guess a mix of satisfaction and relief. But is the satisfaction enough to motivate the effort? Sadly not for me.


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## arbffgadm100 (Jun 3, 2016)

Ultrasonic said:


> I squat primarily for the purpose of making my quads bigger and stronger, for a mix of aesthetics and health. The process of actually squating isn't pleasurable though.
> 
> To answer @swole troll's earlier question my feeling after completing each set is I guess a mix of satisfaction and relief. But is the satisfaction enough to motivate the effort? Sadly not for me.


 What is it you dislike about it?

I mean this respectfully, but most people dislike things that are difficult and require a mix of focus and effort (for this reason, only a small percentage of the population actually train in the first place), firstly to master the movement and secondly to meaningfully progress. It is exactly because of this that I like to squat. The sense of satisfaction I get from throwing 3 or 4 plates a side on the bar and smoothly and under control squat for a RM/PR could, for me, never even remotely be equaled by pushing 4x times that amount of weight on a leg press.


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## NoGutsNoGloryy (Jan 7, 2013)

arbffgadm100 said:


> What is it you dislike about it?
> 
> I mean this respectfully, but most people dislike things that are difficult and require a mix of focus and effort (for this reason, only a small percentage of the population actually train in the first place), firstly to master the movement and secondly to meaningfully progress. It is exactly because of this that I like to squat. The sense of satisfaction I get from throwing 3 or 4 plates a side on the bar and smoothly and under control squat for a RM/PR could, for me, never even remotely be equaled by pushing 4x times that amount of weight on a leg press.


 That word you're looking for that describes those people that dislike putting in some focus and effort are called "pussys" and sometimes "bitches".


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

arbffgadm100 said:


> What is it you dislike about it?


 As I wrote earlier in the thread, it's bloody hard work! Remember the context here was squats being considered fun.

I do squat though.


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## Jordan08 (Feb 17, 2014)

Can't see a workout routine for myself without them. Anyone who can do them, should them. Obviously, dont neccessary from quad growth point of view. But, no exercise gives the satisfaction when you beat the numbers as squats.


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## TITO (Nov 11, 2008)

I hate training legs! BUT love squatting! If I could just squat for leg days I'd be happy


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## nWo (Mar 25, 2014)

Jakemaguire said:


> The stronger my 8rm on the squat gets the more overall mass I gain, not just leg size


 Sure, but then I could say that the heavier my barbell curls get, the bigger all my muscles get - though, that's because I just happen to be training the rest of my body alongside the curls  if you were literally just squatting the that'd be quite something, though.


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## nWo (Mar 25, 2014)

TITO said:


> I hate training legs! BUT love squatting! If I could just squat for leg days I'd be happy


 You almost could. Squats, leg curls, calves, done. Repeat in 3-4 days.


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## nWo (Mar 25, 2014)

Jordan08 said:


> Can't see a workout routine for myself without them. Anyone who can do them, should them. Obviously, dont neccessary from quad growth point of view. But, no exercise gives the satisfaction when you beat the numbers as squats.


 Again, though, I find it weird that phrases like "if you can do them, you should be doing them" and "you don't need them for quad growth" are both often thrown into the same post. Why should you be doing them if they're not necessary? It's the popular and incessant idea that you should be doing them when they're not actually a necessity that leads me to label them as the most overhyped exercise in existence - not because they don't work, but because it's quite a widespread view that you must do them when, in reality, for bodybuilding purposes they're totally replaceable.


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

dtlv said:


> Squats, preformed properly and intensely, are one of the best 'bang for your buck' exercises, but they are by no means essential to developing great legs and you can easily construct a complete leg routine without them.
> 
> Agreat example of someone who built great legs without squats is none other than @Pscarb who, after breaking his back in a horrible accident, replaced squats with leg presses as a main leg exercise and built some excellent pins.
> 
> ...


 @dtlv is correct I have not squatted (apart from some box squats one year) since 1996 when I was paralysed I can't say my legs didn't suffer as they could have been better but I challenge anyone who says you need squats to build good legs.

My legs before I was struck down with Sepsis.


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## Sasnak (Oct 11, 2016)

I'm getting a bit fed up with squats of late tbh.

What leg routine would you recommend? I'm looking basic here as I'm not wanting to break any records. I've always been wary of leg extensions and to a lesser extent leg curls as I don't think they are a natural movement but I'm now wondering if they might be the answer. I'd be interested opinions, especially from @Pscarb thanks.


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## simonboyle (Aug 5, 2013)

They're good, but most people can't do them properly and are an injury nightmare for them.

And once you do get an injury they are impossible to do

I stopped doing them regularly after a hernia op (probably due to jits).

Since then, back injuries, no chance I'm squatting.

Knee injuries, same.

Shoulder tears, f**k no!.

Even a couple of hand injuries and a broken arm made them impossible.

I do them once in a while for fun, but get the fear once the weight starts to increase, lol.


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## simonboyle (Aug 5, 2013)

Leg press has been a lot more productive for me to be fair.


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## vetran (Oct 17, 2009)

Sasnak said:


> I'm getting a bit fed up with squats of late tbh.
> 
> What leg routine would you recommend? I'm looking basic here as I'm not wanting to break any records. I've always been wary of leg extensions and to a lesser extent leg curls as I don't think they are a natural movement but I'm now wondering if they might be the answer. I'd be interested opinions, especially from @Pscarb thanks.


 Lunges are basic mate,it may have been me that invented them but truth be known I was just stealing wood of a building site to put on my coal fire


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## Sasnak (Oct 11, 2016)

simonboyle said:


> Leg press has been a lot more productive for me to be fair.


 What else do you do if you don't mind me asking?


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## swole troll (Apr 15, 2015)

if you want a true hate yourself exercise try Bulgarian split squats

if you 'like' those you're wrong in the head


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## arbffgadm100 (Jun 3, 2016)

TITO said:


> I hate training legs! BUT love squatting! If I could just squat for leg days I'd be happy


 That is literally all I do.

havent done anything but squats for lower body (regularly) for a coupe years.


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## Redser (Sep 7, 2016)

swole troll said:


> if you want a true hate yourself exercise try Bulgarian split squats
> 
> if you 'like' those you're wrong in the head


 I fokin love them.... And I live for leg day too :lol:

I'm clearly not well at all


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## simonboyle (Aug 5, 2013)

Sasnak said:


> What else do you do if you don't mind me asking?


 Usually start with leg press, suoer set that with calf raises as im sitting on it anyway.

Then it varies, but will always include leg extension with single leg squats/step backs.

Curls supersets with walking lunges.

Throw in another couple of exercises depending on what gym I'm in.


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## nWo (Mar 25, 2014)

Sasnak said:


> I'm getting a bit fed up with squats of late tbh.
> 
> What leg routine would you recommend? I'm looking basic here as I'm not wanting to break any records. I've always been wary of leg extensions and to a lesser extent leg curls as I don't think they are a natural movement but I'm now wondering if they might be the answer. I'd be interested opinions, especially from @Pscarb thanks.


 Absolutely nothing wrong with leg extensions if done correctly - you're at risk of ACL stress if you do it wrong, but if you set up the machine properly you're golden.






As for a squat-free leg day, this is what mine would typically look like:

Leg press 4x5-6 reps, 3 mins rest

Romanian deadlifts 4x6-8 reps, 3 mins rest

Hack squat machine 3x8-12 reps, 2-3 mins rest

Leg extension 2x15-20 reps, 30 secs rest

Leg curls 3x8-12 reps, 2-3 mins rest

(another hamstring exercise of your choice) 2x15-20 reps, 30 secs rest - glute-ham raises or gliding leg curls on a rowing machine are great choices for rep work

Seated calf raises 3x10-15 reps, 2 mins rest

Standing calf raises 2x15-20 reps, 30 secs rest

OR if you're on an upper/lower split or high-frequency PPL, split it up so it looks like this:

WORKOUT A

Leg press 4x5-6 reps, 3 mins rest

Leg extension 2x15-20 reps, 30 secs rest

Lying leg curls 3x8-12 reps, 2-3 mins rest

Seated calf raises 3x10-15 reps, 2 mins rest

WORKOUT B

Romanian deadlifts 4x6-8 reps, 3 mins rest

Seated leg curls 2x15-20 reps, 30 secs rest

Hack squat machine 3x8-12 reps, 2-3 mins rest

Standing calf raises 2x15-20 reps, 30 secs rest

For leg presses and Romanian deadlifts, you could also do Wendler's 531 or Ogus' 753


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## Heavyassweights (Jan 18, 2014)

swole troll said:


> if you want a true hate yourself exercise try Bulgarian split squats
> 
> if you 'like' those you're wrong in the head


 These are scheduled for tomorrow, always a sigh of relief once complete. I do them holding a pair of dumbbells not the single dumbbell whilst holding something to keep balance pish.

inb4coolstorypicsofmumandhduisyourbiologicaldad


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## Jakemaguire (Feb 17, 2016)

nWo said:


> Sure, but then I could say that the heavier my barbell curls get, the bigger all my muscles get - though, that's because I just happen to be training the rest of my body alongside the curls  if you were literally just squatting the that'd be quite something, though.


 No the rest of my training can remain the same and the increased squat strength at that rep range always makes me larger in general. The squat places huge amounts of stress on the entire body. The barbell curl could never give that kind of stimulus


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

simonboyle said:


> They're good, but most people can't do them properly and are an injury nightmare for them.
> 
> And once you do get an injury they are impossible to do
> 
> ...


 You remind me, shoulder injuries, although you might not think it, can make squats impossible.

When I tore my rotator cuff for about five months after just getting my arm into the position to hold the bar was a nightmare - for so long I just didn't have the range of motion to do it at all, and then when I did it was seriously painful. For the majority of that time I would only squat on the Smith machine and with only my good arm gripping the bar.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

arbffgadm100 said:


> That is literally all I do.
> 
> havent done anything but squats for lower body (regularly) for a coupe years.


 Nothing for hamstrings?


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## Jordan08 (Feb 17, 2014)

nWo said:


> Again, though, I find it weird that phrases like "if you can do them, you should be doing them" and "you don't need them for quad growth" are both often thrown into the same post. Why should you be doing them if they're not necessary? It's the popular and incessant idea that you should be doing them when they're not actually a necessity that leads me to label them as the most overhyped exercise in existence - not because they don't work, but because it's quite a widespread view that you must do them when, in reality, for bodybuilding purposes they're totally replaceable.


 I gave the answer why i do them when i know they are not necessary in last line of my post bud.


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## Heavyassweights (Jan 18, 2014)

Jakemaguire said:


> No the rest of my training can remain the same and the increased squat strength at that rep range always makes me larger in general. The squat places huge amounts of stress on the entire body. *The barbell curl could never give that kind of stimulus *


 you've obviously never been to a pure gym, full body swing as standard whilst curling


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## simonboyle (Aug 5, 2013)

dtlv said:


> You remind me, shoulder injuries, although you might not think it, can make squats impossible.
> 
> When I tore my rotator cuff for about five months after just getting my arm into the position to hold the bar was a nightmare - for so long I just didn't have the range of motion to do it at all, and then when I did it was seriously painful. For the majority of that time I would only squat on the Smith machine and with only my good arm gripping the bar.


 Exactly.

Same here. Even the pressure of the weight of the bar in your shoulders was too much. But yeah, trying.to get my arms in position was hard.


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## swole troll (Apr 15, 2015)

Redser said:


> I fokin love them.... And I live for leg day too :lol:
> 
> I'm clearly not well at all


 I love leg training in general: squats, leg press, deadlifts, block pulls, leg extensions and curls ect

But cannot stand front squats and Bulgarian split squats

You must be a real masochist lol


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## arbffgadm100 (Jun 3, 2016)

Ultrasonic said:


> Nothing for hamstrings?


 I know that you know you're stuff mate, so I'm surprised you asked this... anyway my answer follows:

This idea that squats don't build hamstrings (or calves, or glutes, or back) is literally the fu**ing stupidest notion in fitness/strength sports. I don't give a s**t what ECG studies the evidence based crowd crap on about, my hammies are, if anything, over developed compared to my quads, and I high bar squat. This is also evidenced by the fact that when I do bother to deadlift occasionally, I usually hit a PR.

Next time you pull your hamstring, go squat a 3RM and tell me it's OK because your hammies aren't used, lol.

Again with respect, this thing about hamstrings and squats is usually spat around by two types of people:

1. Highly developed bodybuilders that really need the extra volume to grow as much as possisble, at the expense of outright strength development; and

2. People who are weak as piss.


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## arbffgadm100 (Jun 3, 2016)

simonboyle said:


> Exactly.
> 
> Same here. Even the pressure of the weight of the bar in your shoulders was too much. But yeah, trying.to get my arms in position was hard.


 Safety squat bars are great for this but hard to come by in most gyms.


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## arbffgadm100 (Jun 3, 2016)

nWo said:


> Absolutely nothing wrong with leg extensions if done correctly - you're at risk of ACL stress if you do it wrong, but if you set up the machine properly you're golden.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 Yesterday my legs day was:

Squat - 60x10, 100x10, 120x6, 140x6x6, 170x3x3

Ab wheel rollout - BWx3x7

Done.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

arbffgadm100 said:


> I know that you know you're stuff mate, so I'm surprised you asked this... anyway my answer follows:
> 
> This idea that squats don't build hamstrings (or calves, or glutes, or back) is literally the fu**ing stupidest notion in fitness/strength sports. I don't give a s**t what ECG studies the evidence based crowd crap on about, my hammies are, if anything, over developed compared to my quads, and I high bar squat. This is also evidenced by the fact that when I do bother to deadlift occasionally, I usually hit a PR.
> 
> ...


 I may be wrong but I thought you were more bodybuilding focused? Don't think I've come across someone who is that relies on squats for hamstring development but if you're happy then obviously what you're doing is fine for you.

Also, I didn't say there is no hamstring involvement or development from squats but I don't think there is any way you can argue you'll get optimal hamstring development from squats.You may not like EMG related data but it, coupled with an understanding of the anatomy, makes this point pretty obvious as far as I'm concerned (see link below).

I'll also say that I used to do far more squating than deadlifting but since making RDLs more of a focus my hamstrings have definitely improved. Also, although this isn't definitive, I will say I don't ever remember getting DOMS in my hamstrings from squating.

Link as promised:

https://journals.lww.com/nsca-jscr/fulltext/2010/12000/Squatting_Kinematics_and_Kinetics_and_Their.40.aspx


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

I should perhaps also have said above that I'd suggest it's fairly obvious when I do RDLs that I'm working my hamstrings far more maximally than when squating, and that what causes me to reach failure on RDLs is the limit of my hanstring's ability. This is not the case with squats.


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## arbffgadm100 (Jun 3, 2016)

Ultrasonic said:


> I may be wrong but I thought you were more bodybuilding focused? Don't think I've come across someone who is that relies on squats for hamstring development but if you're happy then obviously what you're doing is fine for you.
> 
> Also, I didn't say there is no hamstring involvement or development from squats but I don't think there is any way you can argue you'll get optimal hamstring development from squats.You may not like EMG related data but it, coupled with an understanding of the anatomy, makes this point pretty obvious as far as I'm concerned (see link below).
> 
> ...


 I do a high ish frequency full body workout that by most standards is very low volume. I am trying to build muscle but my primary goals long term are strength. And that being the case, the two are anything but mutually exclusive. Get stronger while in a cyclic surplus (mass, minicut, repeat) will achieve them simultaneously.

EMG data is useful but flawed. You can produce much more force in your hammies by sprinting distances of 20-60m according the EMG but nobody builds a leg day around it. Likewise technically you can generate more force using a hip thrust than a squat or GM, but I know damn well which is going to build more muscle over the long term, and it isn't the person air-fu**ing the ceeling with a towel wrapped around a barbell... when was the last time you look at Brett Contreras or one of his trainees and thought, man, his glute development is so much better than (insert anyone ever that squats 500+lbs for reps). Answer: never.

i agree and understanding of anatomy is useful. For that reason, it should be fairly obvious that as you squat, your hamstrings are loaded.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

arbffgadm100 said:


> I do a high ish frequency full body workout that by most standards is very low volume. I am trying to build muscle but my primary goals long term are strength. And that being the case, the two are anything but mutually exclusive. Get stronger while in a cyclic surplus (mass, minicut, repeat) will achieve them simultaneously.
> 
> EMG data is useful but flawed. You can produce much more force in your hammies by sprinting distances of 20-60m according the EMG but nobody builds a leg day around it. Likewise technically you can generate more force using a hip thrust than a squat or GM, but I know damn well which is going to build more muscle over the long term, and it isn't the person air-fu**ing the ceeling with a towel wrapped around a barbell... when was the last time you look at Brett Contreras or one of his trainees and thought, man, his glute development is so much better than (insert anyone ever that squats 500+lbs for reps). Answer: never.
> 
> i agree and understanding of anatomy is useful. For that reason, it should be fairly obvious that as you squat, your hamstrings are loaded.


 Sounds like we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one  .


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## arbffgadm100 (Jun 3, 2016)

Ultrasonic said:


> I should perhaps also have said above that I'd suggest it's fairly obvious when I do RDLs that I'm working my hamstrings far more maximally than when squating, and that what causes me to reach failure on RDLs is the limit of my hanstring's ability. This is not the case with squats.


 This is point I'm making.

I did not say you can maximally stimulate your hamstrings squatting.

I did say you can develop them just fine if you squat.

Most people's ideas of squatting is get in and get it over with ASAP so they can do all the easy stuff. They never really push themselves to progress that lift as best they can. That might be why the feel squats are inferior. If you take a guy who squats no where near his limits, rarely progresses the weight on the bar and volume, and can't wait to get out of the rack and go do 4x15 lying ham curls... he is exactly the sort of person that will claim squats do nothing for his hammies.

Whereas if you take Dan Green for example, who regularly squats for sets of 10 to 12 with over 500lbs, I'd say he is likely to agree that squats build hamstrings just fine.


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## arbffgadm100 (Jun 3, 2016)

Ultrasonic said:


> Sounds like we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one  .


 Fair enough mate.


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## simonboyle (Aug 5, 2013)

arbffgadm100 said:


> Safety squat bars are great for this but hard to come by in most gyms.


 Didn't help. Still puts your shoulders in a s**t position and puts a lot of strain on them


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## nWo (Mar 25, 2014)

arbffgadm100 said:


> I know that you know you're stuff mate, so I'm surprised you asked this... anyway my answer follows:
> 
> This idea that squats don't build hamstrings (or calves, or glutes, or back) is literally the fu**ing stupidest notion in fitness/strength sports. I don't give a s**t what ECG studies the evidence based crowd crap on about, my hammies are, if anything, over developed compared to my quads, and I high bar squat. This is also evidenced by the fact that when I do bother to deadlift occasionally, I usually hit a PR.
> 
> ...


 Jeff Nippard best explains why the squat is such a shitty hamstring exercise, both biomechanically and in terms of EMG results (ECG is a heart test btw  )






EMG studies of course aren't the be-all-and-end-all, but they're very valid as they literally demonstrate to what degree a muscle is stimulated in any given exercise. People's main argument against them is that they always demonstrate that isolation exercises typically score the highest and EMG studies suggest they're superior - in terms of stimulation, they are, but overall compounds are more effective in the long term because progressive overload is important, and the potential for overload on isolation exercises is poor in comparison. The notion that sprints demonstrate high hamstring force output and therefore by EMG logic they should be an effective muscle builder, is flawed - we need tensile extension and shortening of the muscle from an exercise for it to be an effective muscle builder, after all, and it's the latter type of exercise that is typically studied under EMG.

So what we can take from this is, if you just squat, your hamstrings will be activated minimally, but they will still indeed be activated, and over time if you've progressed massively on the squat then you will experience a degree of hamstring development off the back of it, particularly if you're biomechanically inclined to do so - but that last part is the issue. Going off what you're saying, you're clearly biomechanically inclined to use your hamstrings in the squat a lot more than the average person. Many people need direct hamstring training to make their hamstrings grow. It's like how some people with huge traps have never done a shrug or upright row in their lives, whilst others work hard on their traps and still aren't as good as the first guy - genetics and biomechanics again come into play. Using myself as an example, I literally cannot train my shoulders without also training my traps - if I get a pump in my side delts, I get a pump in my traps also, regardless of the exercise and how strict the form has been. So my traps are always stimulated with shoulder exercises and they grow well without any direct work, that's just the way I'm built; whereas the next guy might feel absolutely nothing in their traps from training their shoulders with good form. An EMG for most people would exhibit low trap activation on the lateral raise for example, but I personally would likely show quite high trap activation. It's this sort of discrepancy between people that makes it necessary to use a large group of subjects within EMG studies and collate the results as part of a bigger picture. Also worth noting that guys like Dan Green, and indeed most people, use some sort of other exercise that stimulates their hamstrings to a much greater degree than squats, such as deadlifts or variations, so asking them if they think the squat is a good hamstring builder based purely on their results would be completely redundant


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## simonboyle (Aug 5, 2013)

Essentially, for me, anyone saying "you must do X" etc is just silly

There is no one exercise you must do for any body part.

And

1. If you can't fo it properly it's pointless.

2. If you're injured or it hurts you, it is pointless and means you won't be training at all.

It's a long game.


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## nWo (Mar 25, 2014)

Jordan08 said:


> I gave the answer why i do them when i know they are not necessary in last line of my post bud.


 Granted mate, but then this is why I'm challenging the idea that everyone should be doing squats if they can, when the same people who put forth this notion will also admit that for bodybuilding purposes, they're not necessary. If personal preference comes into it because the exercise isn't necessary, then there's no "should" about it really, just do them if you want to or find a replacement if you don't


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## Dubs85 (Aug 29, 2018)

Sasnak said:


> What else do you do if you don't mind me asking?


 You ever tried a belt squat mate?

If you find a gym with one they are an ego killer...

Take the load off the spine and absolutely murder the quads..


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

My take on squats and hamstrings - squats alone are not optimal for hamstrings. You need a hip hinge movement like a deadlift, plus a movement that contracts the hams like a leg curl for optimal hamstring growth. Squats do a little of both, but neither fully. However, it does depend how you squat.

If you squat like an Olympic lifter with a medium narrow stance, a high bar, upright back and go well below parallel, then you'll mostly load the quads and glutes with only a little proximal hamstring involvement.

Squat more like a powerlifter however with a wider than shoulder width stance, lower bar position, slight fixed forward lean and go only to or slightly below parallel and you'll bring in the hams, both distal and proximal a little more, plus your adductors more than the Oly squat but with slightly less quad - even though the quad still remains the main mover.

People tend to squat either one way or the other, or use a hybrid style somewhere in between, and IMO that partly explains the difference in hamstring development people claim to get from squats. The other factor is anatomical, like angle of the hip socket and relative length of femur to tibia. For me I like doing both of the 'pure' versions, and consider them so different, due to how they affect my legs differently, that I see them as two totally different exercises.


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## Redser (Sep 7, 2016)

swole troll said:


> I love leg training in general: squats, leg press, deadlifts, block pulls, leg extensions and curls ect
> 
> But cannot stand front squats and Bulgarian split squats
> 
> You must be a real masochist lol


 Front squat with very narrow foot position (toes pointed slightly outward) is a personal fave lol, arse to the floor.

Even at low weight high rep they work well.

Sissy squat with dumbell is my favorite


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## monkeybiker (Jul 21, 2010)

simonboyle said:


> Didn't help. Still puts your shoulders in a s**t position and puts a lot of strain on them


 I've got safety squat bar at home and can do squats without holding the handles.


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## simonboyle (Aug 5, 2013)

monkeybiker said:


> I've got safety squat bar at home and can do squats without holding the handles.


 Show off


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## monkeybiker (Jul 21, 2010)

simonboyle said:


> Show off


 I know your taking the piss like but just saying with a safety bar you don't need to hold the handles if that's what's hurting your shoulders.


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## simonboyle (Aug 5, 2013)

monkeybiker said:


> I know your taking the piss like but just saying with a safety bar you don't need to hold the handles if that's what's hurting your shoulders.


 Shoulders are fine now buddy.

But when injured it was also the pressure on the shoulders directly.

Plus for me i couldn't nit hold the handles and wouldn't want to.

I just don't feel squatting is for me anymore, apart from split squats etc. BB squat? Nah, just as a warm.up or for a pump.


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## Jack of blades (Apr 2, 2017)

I go through phases of not doing squats when this happens I notice my legs get smaller


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