# No carbs late at night - Is this complete and utter bullsh*t?



## L11 (Jan 21, 2011)

I reckon so.. But to be honest meal and macro timing is the biggest thing about nutrition that I can't quite get..

This had to have come from some truth surely?


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## Milky (Nov 30, 2008)

It works for me mate but l know of some who thrive on them mate.

Each to there own, l have never looked back from dropping them TBH.


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## ClarkyBoy (Sep 24, 2012)

Just about to chow down on a pasta bake so can't really comment ha!


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## marknorthumbria (Oct 1, 2009)

Read articles on it being bollocks, I keep carbs around training so if training was early then it would be no carbs before bed just for that reason


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## fletcher1 (Jun 14, 2012)

Your body's insulin will store unused glucose as fat, so if u eat carbs before bed ( the most easily converted macro) then it's safe to say that when ur sleeping your not burning them, so they wil be stored as body fat, if u eat them in the morning your body uses 3 times the amount of energy just by being awake, so logically they will be used not stored


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## Fatstuff (Mar 2, 2010)

I think periods of low carbs in general are a good idea regardless of when it is(except pwo).

Have you read about the benefits of carb back loading?

This turns the no carbs at night theory on its head.

Even intermittent fasting, I believe it's more the periods of no or low carbs and (obviously the defecit )that make it work.


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## 2004mark (Oct 26, 2013)

I've never given nutrition timing the time of day other than to keep meal sizes acceptable (purely from a hunger point of view). I'm much in the iifym camp too, but then again I'm only you're average trainer so have never looked to really push the boundaries.


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## tiny76 (Apr 27, 2010)

I though the only reason to not eat carbs before bedtime was due to the insulin spike dulling the gh pulse and not so much to do with fat metabolism.


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## jon1 (Jul 19, 2012)

i've just started to eat carbs before bed as i don't feel i'm eat enough through the day. i'm bulking,

if i was cutting most likely not eat carbs


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## fletcher1 (Jun 14, 2012)

Fatstuff said:


> I think periods of low carbs in general are a good idea regardless of when it is(except pwo).
> 
> Have you read about the benefits of carb back loading?
> 
> ...


Yes I think periods of low carbs are good in this game, it's very good for improving insulin sensitivity, so when you are eating carbs your getting the best use out of them


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## PaulB (Jun 6, 2010)

I taper down my food intake after my evening meal but I don't cut out carbs.


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## L11 (Jan 21, 2011)

That's the other thing I was thinking, when you're cutting, is insulin spiking relevant? If you're in a deficit surely you're body wont store fat regardless?


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## 2004mark (Oct 26, 2013)

fletcher1 said:


> Your body's insulin will store unused glucose as fat, so if u eat carbs before bed ( the most easily converted macro) then it's safe to say that when ur sleeping your not burning them, so they wil be stored as body fat, if u eat them in the morning your body uses 3 times the amount of energy just by being awake, so logically they will be used not stored


Your logic is far to simple there. There are so many other factors to be taken into consideration... the biggest being whether you're in calorific deficit or surplus for the day.


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## Ackee&amp;Saltfish (Mar 18, 2011)

Milky said:


> It works for me mate but l know of some who thrive on them mate.
> 
> Each to there own, l have never looked back from dropping them TBH.


What time of day do you cut off your carbs? And is that 100% no carbs?


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## Milky (Nov 30, 2008)

Fatstuff said:


> I think periods of low carbs in general are a good idea regardless of when it is(except pwo).
> 
> Have you read about the benefits of carb back loading?
> 
> ...


I am about to start some kind of back loading diet ironically.


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## Mingster (Mar 25, 2011)

http://www.drsharma.ca/obesity-save-your-carbs-for-dinner.html


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## jon1 (Jul 19, 2012)

L11 said:


> That's the other thing I was thinking, when you're cutting, is insulin spiking relevant? If you're in a deficit surely you're body wont store fat regardless?


it would be harder for it to happen.


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## simonthepieman (Jun 11, 2012)

When you are cutting. Insulin spiking and carb timing is irrelevant.

Do long as you are in and extreme calorie surplus it's mostly irrelevant for bulking too


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## DazUKM (Nov 22, 2012)

2004mark said:


> I've never given nutrition timing the time of day other than to keep meal sizes acceptable (purely from a hunger point of view). I'm much in the iifym camp too, but then again I'm only you're average trainer so have never looked to really push the boundaries.


this^

unless ur a pro athlete it may have some small affect but there's a much larger picture than meal timing, hitting the correct macros + a solid training program is going to have a much great difference so thats what i concern myself with > if i eat carbs at night or not


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## Milky (Nov 30, 2008)

Ackee&Saltfish said:


> What time of day do you cut off your carbs? And is that 100% no carbs?


I used to have 50 gr of cocopop roks post workout mate then that was it.

My evening meal would consist of 200 gr protein and some kind of green veg, broccoli, green beens, blah blah blah.

Worked for me but l accept its not for everyone.


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## fletcher1 (Jun 14, 2012)

2004mark said:


> Your logic is far to simple there. There are so many other factors to be taken into consideration... the biggest being whether you're in calorific deficit or surplus for the day.


I think it's not the deficit for the day that is relevant here, if you ate 30-50 g of carbs I think it would be totally irrelevant but a large carb meal at night, regardless of being n deficit for the day will put excess carbs in the bloodstream and obviously store them as fat, you cold eat nothing all day and then eat 200g carbs before bed and some if it would be stored as fat


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## jon1 (Jul 19, 2012)

Milky said:


> I am about to start some kind of back loading diet ironically.


i did carb back loading and lost 25llb of body fat. at 6pm i was eating ice cream, sweets, pizza, cakes. it was a good diet

everybody could believe i was losing weight


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## Milky (Nov 30, 2008)

jon1 said:


> i did carb back loading and lost 25llb of body fat. at 6pm i was eating ice cream, sweets, pizza, cakes. it was a good diet
> 
> everybody could believe i was losing weight


Mine includes NONE of that, do you want to coach me :lol:


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## L11 (Jan 21, 2011)

Mingster said:


> http://www.drsharma.ca/obesity-save-your-carbs-for-dinner.html


Kinda related to why I brought this up.. Basically tomorrow morning I'm training at 6am, so I figure it would be best to have carbs now to fuel my "fasted" workout..?


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## PaulB (Jun 6, 2010)

@dtlv

@Pscarb

Your input would be good on this subject


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## Fatstuff (Mar 2, 2010)

simonthepieman said:


> When you are cutting. Insulin spiking and carb timing is irrelevant.
> 
> Do long as you are in and extreme calorie surplus it's mostly irrelevant for bulking too


I would say its more relevant for a long term surplus.


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## L11 (Jan 21, 2011)

fletcher1 said:


> I think it's not the deficit for the day that is relevant here, if you ate 30-50 g of carbs I think it would be totally irrelevant but a large carb meal at night, regardless of being n deficit for the day will put excess carbs in the bloodstream and obviously store them as fat, you cold eat nothing all day and then eat 200g carbs before bed and some if it would be stored as fat


I'm not a physics expert but surely that defies the laws of thermodynamics?


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## Fatstuff (Mar 2, 2010)

L11 said:


> Kinda related to why I brought this up.. Basically tomorrow morning I'm training at 6am, so I figure it would be best to have carbs now to fuel my "fasted" workout..?


If your muscle glycogen is full now from today's eating, it should be full still tomorrow. I regularly train fasted in the morning, it never affects my performance.


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## Dh2909 (Aug 9, 2011)

From my readings its bollox, and if carbs are part of ur diet its better to eat them at night as they aid sleep! and u wont have an energy crash, If there is room and ur insulin sensitive the glycogen will be stored in ur muscle not fat, If u workout out tht day super compensation will mean theres even more room for glycogen storage in muscle.

Personally I prefer low carb diets, feel far more energetic! Anabolic diet at the moment for me so carb load at weekends (makes me fart like **** lol)


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## 2004mark (Oct 26, 2013)

fletcher1 said:


> I think it's not the deficit for the day that is relevant here, if you ate 30-50 g of carbs I think it would be totally irrelevant but a large carb meal at night, regardless of being n deficit for the day will put excess carbs in the bloodstream and obviously store them as fat, you cold eat nothing all day and then eat 200g carbs before bed and some if it would be stored as fat


Yeah, but you're polarising your argument there and taking it way past the context of an average diet of a member on this board... I don't think anyone is talking about eating 200g of carbs pre bed. But to take your scenario, if you've not eaten anything all day... that 200g of carbs would mostly likely just replenish glycogen and glucose reserves of the muscles and liver and not be stored as fat.


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## engllishboy (Nov 1, 2007)

fletcher1 said:


> I think it's not the deficit for the day that is relevant here, if you ate 30-50 g of carbs I think it would be totally irrelevant but a large carb meal at night, regardless of being n deficit for the day will put excess carbs in the bloodstream and obviously store them as fat, you cold eat nothing all day and then eat 200g carbs before bed and some if it would be stored as fat


No, it would be stored as glycogen on the muscle first. Any overflow would then be stored as fat.


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## L11 (Jan 21, 2011)

Fatstuff said:


> If your muscle glycogen is full now from today's eating, it should be full still tomorrow. I regularly train fasted in the morning, it never affects my performance.


Yea but my point is would it be more effective to have eaten carbs and protein 9 hours before my training, or fat and protein..? Or no difference..?


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## Bear2012 (Jan 19, 2012)

I personally drop my carbs in the evenings I do less and therefore do not need cals from them. I stop around 7pm and won't eat carbs again until 8am the next day. Seems to work for me but I think it dpends greatly on your own metabolic rate


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

PaulB said:


> @dtlv
> 
> @Pscarb
> 
> Your input would be good on this subject


total b0lloxs


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## Milky (Nov 30, 2008)

Pscarb said:


> total b0lloxs


short and sweet but to the point :lol:


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## Ricky12345 (Jun 13, 2012)

Milky said:


> It works for me mate but l know of some who thrive on them mate.
> 
> Each to there own, l have never looked back from dropping them TBH.


In what way have u dropped them mate just lowered them or dropped them all together or just at night I'm intrested as I'm really carb sensative they bloat me and make me pile fat on like no tomoro


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

Ricky12345 said:


> In what way have u dropped them mate just lowered them or dropped them all together or just at night I'm intrested as I'm really carb sensative they bloat me and make me pile fat on like no tomoro


he will be eating all of his carbs at night


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## Milky (Nov 30, 2008)

Ricky12345 said:


> In what way have u dropped them mate just lowered them or dropped them all together or just at night I'm intrested as I'm really carb sensative they bloat me and make me pile fat on like no tomoro


I don't eat them after 4 pm ish mate except if Paul adds them to my diet.

Do you eat a lot of pasta /


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## Milky (Nov 30, 2008)

Pscarb said:


> he will be eating all of his carbs at night


Beat me too it...


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## Northern Lass (Aug 10, 2011)

L11 said:


> I reckon so.. But to be honest meal and macro timing is the biggest thing about nutrition that I can't quite get..
> 
> This had to have come from some truth surely?


I wouldnt say it was utter rubbish, I think it's a bit silly to have carbs that late... bit of a waste.

I like my muscles to soak all the carbs up after a heavy workout


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## DutchTony (Sep 25, 2011)

Milky said:


> I used to have 50 gr of cocopop roks post workout mate then that was it.
> 
> My evening meal would consist of 200 gr protein and some kind of green veg, broccoli, green beens, blah blah blah.
> 
> Worked for me but l accept its not for everyone.


200g protein - in 1 meal. How??? I would love 200g protein in 1 meal.....


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## davesays (Aug 9, 2012)

fletcher1 said:


> Your body's insulin will store unused glucose as fat, so if u eat carbs before bed ( the most easily converted macro) then it's safe to say that when ur sleeping your not burning them, so they wil be stored as body fat, if u eat them in the morning your body uses 3 times the amount of energy just by being awake, so logically they will be used not stored


Ok so what if you're in a calorie deficit? Will you still 'store unused glucose as fat' aye?


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## Milky (Nov 30, 2008)

DutchTony said:


> 200g protein - in 1 meal. How??? I would love 200g protein in 1 meal.....


Ok smart **** 200 gr of protein source, chicken / steaj etc....

Negged for being pedantic :whistling:


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## Ricky12345 (Jun 13, 2012)

Milky said:


> I don't eat them after 4 pm ish mate except if Paul adds them to my diet.
> 
> Do you eat a lot of pasta /


Pasta is one thing I never really touch its things like brown bread jacket potatoes brown rice and white rice I have I've noticed how quickly I can lose fat around my gut and stomach when using no carbs in 2 weeks I guess it's down to bloat and water retention


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## Milky (Nov 30, 2008)

Ricky12345 said:


> Pasta is one thing I never really touch its things like brown bread jacket potatoes brown rice and white rice I have I've noticed how quickly I can lose fat around my gut and stomach when using no carbs in 2 weeks I guess it's down to bloat and water retention


Pasta was a bad one for me. closely followed by bread. How big are your portions mate ?


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## Ricky12345 (Jun 13, 2012)

Milky said:


> Pasta was a bad one for me. closely followed by bread. How big are your portions mate ?


Pretty big tbf mate i love penut butter so would go through 6 slices off penut butter on toast but I have dropped the carbs ATM as for carbs around training time how should I go with that carbs before then a meal after with carbs then cut them right down throughout the day


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## Milky (Nov 30, 2008)

Ricky12345 said:


> Pretty big tbf mate i love penut butter so would go through 6 slices off penut butter on toast but I have dropped the carbs ATM as for carbs around training time how should I go with that carbs before then a meal after with carbs then cut them right down throughout the day


Christ, think you have found the route of the problem then mate :thumbup1:


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## Ricky12345 (Jun 13, 2012)

Milky said:


> Christ, think you have found the route of the problem then mate :thumbup1:


Haha ye I no mate but I have stopped now and have found what's working better for me just need to crack the suger cravings I'm going to try the carbs around training time as next to no carbs can't be to good for me


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## DutchTony (Sep 25, 2011)

Milky said:


> Ok smart **** 200 gr of protein source, chicken / steaj etc....
> 
> Negged for being pedantic :whistling:


 :lol:

I genuinely thought you meant 200g protein in one meal. I've been trying to up my protein in every meal recently. Yesterday my post workout meal was

7 eggs (scrambled)

100g cheese

1 tin of tuna

That was the most protein I've had in a meal. It was 106g protein. I'm trying to find ways to up it to 150g protein per meal without getting absolutely stuffed


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## Fatstuff (Mar 2, 2010)

L11 said:


> Yea but my point is would it be more effective to have eaten carbs and protein 9 hours before my training, or fat and protein..? Or no difference..?


Depends on ur activity level on the evening I would think.


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

YummyMummy said:


> I wouldnt say it was utter rubbish, I think it's a bit silly to have carbs that late... bit of a waste.
> 
> I like my muscles to soak all the carbs up after a heavy workout


why on earth is it a waste? why do you think the body suddenly stops soaking up carbs after a certain time period after a workout?.......so please give details to why it is "Utter rubbish" and a "bit of a waste" i have many clients (3 of them females) that are eating carbs well into the evening and losing bodyfat?......

Macro timing is one of the most important if not the most important parts to anyones diet to encourage growth, fat loss, recovery etc.....


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## mal (Dec 31, 2009)

i have no carbs all day atm then do about 2-300 in the evening from pots oats branflakes

milk etc a bit less if ive not trained,also a fair few fats in the evening too(flax),i get good fat

loss like this,and maintain good size fullness strength,some days will do some fasting as

well,but always ram the carbo's in the evening,i sleep alot better this way and the mus

gets a good feed through the night.


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## L11 (Jan 21, 2011)

DutchTony said:


> That was the most protein I've had in a meal. It was 106g protein. I'm trying to find ways to up it to 150g protein per meal without getting absolutely stuffed


Ummmm whey?!


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## G-man99 (Jul 15, 2008)

fletcher1 said:


> I think it's not the deficit for the day that is relevant here, if you ate 30-50 g of carbs I think it would be totally irrelevant but a large carb meal at night, regardless of being n deficit for the day will put excess carbs in the bloodstream and obviously store them as fat, you cold eat nothing all day and then eat 200g carbs before bed and some if it would be stored as fat


Does your body all of a sudden totally change the way it works because its bed time??

The food you eat isn't instantly digested and used up.

Long distance cyclists etc start carbing up a few days in advance, not a few hours!


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

fletcher1 said:


> I think it's not the deficit for the day that is relevant here, if you ate 30-50 g of carbs I think it would be totally irrelevant but a large carb meal at night, regardless of being n deficit for the day will put excess carbs in the bloodstream and obviously store them as fat, you cold eat nothing all day and then eat 200g carbs before bed and some if it would be stored as fat


if you eat nothing all day (carb wise)and your daily macro's was 200g of carbs you could eat these in one meal and not store any as fat but i am up for learning new things so if you want to detail the carbs in the blood stream theory i am all ears.......

and you could eat 2-3 meal of this size if you timed them properly and still not gain fat


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## MrLulz (Mar 20, 2012)

Whenever I drop carbs after lunch I drop weight. One explanation could be that I may be inadvertently dropping calories by doing so though (I don't religiously calorie count irrespective).


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

simonthepieman said:


> When you are cutting. Insulin spiking and carb timing is irrelevant.
> 
> Do long as you are in and extreme calorie surplus it's mostly irrelevant for bulking too


why is it irrelevant for when you are cutting? you will drop more fat if you time your meals so insulin is not released as this stops fat burning, in the morning when we wake up we are at our highest at burning fat the body is primed if your goal is fat loss the best thing you can do is have a black coffee and wait 2-3hrs to eat anything then have P/F this will extend the fat burning effect the body has, opposed to getting up and slamming down some oats, fruit etc which releases insulin and stops all fat burning..........

Carb timing is extremely relevant no matter if you are cutting or bulking natural or assisted....


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## huarache (May 28, 2012)

Pscarb said:


> why on earth is it a waste? why do you think the body suddenly stops soaking up carbs after a certain time period after a workout?.......so please give details to why it is "Utter rubbish" and a "bit of a waste" i have many clients (3 of them females) that are eating carbs well into the evening and losing bodyfat?......
> 
> Macro timing is one of the most important if not the most important parts to anyones diet to encourage growth, fat loss, recovery etc.....


I NEED your knowledge


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

MrLulz said:


> Whenever I drop carbs after lunch I drop weight. One explanation could be that I may be inadvertently dropping calories by doing so though (I don't religiously calorie count irrespective).


you have answered your own question mate, if you drop carbs but do not count anything then there is a high chance you are dropping total calories hence the weight loss


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## Fatstuff (Mar 2, 2010)

Pscarb said:


> you have answered your own question mate, if you drop carbs but do not count anything then there is a high chance you are dropping total calories hence the weight loss


As well as a loss of water probably from lowering the carbs.


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## Talaria (Jun 30, 2011)

Pscarb said:


> why is it irrelevant for when you are cutting? you will drop more fat if you time your meals so insulin is not released as this stops fat burning, in the morning when we wake up we are at our highest at burning fat the body is primed if your goal is fat loss the best thing you can do is have a black coffee and wait 2-3hrs to eat anything then have P/F this will extend the fat burning effect the body has, opposed to getting up and slamming down some oats, fruit etc which releases insulin and stops all fat burning..........
> 
> Carb timing is extremely relevant no matter if you are cutting or bulking natural or assisted....


You won't win an argument with the pieman.


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## sh4n3 (May 26, 2013)

can I just ask would I be better eating my carbs after I get back from the gym even though I train at night and go to bed soon after (train about 8 til 9)


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## MANC12 (Aug 9, 2012)

Pscarb said:


> you have answered your own question mate, if you drop carbs but do not count anything then there is a high chance you are dropping total calories hence the weight loss


Thats exactly what I do (best timing). I think the "no carbs before bed" thing is just way of restricting carbs as you rather tale the carbs in the day for energy and training


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## PaulB (Jun 6, 2010)

Pscarb said:


> total b0lloxs


Well that's that all cleared up NEXT....


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## IGotTekkers (Jun 6, 2012)

fletcher1 said:


> Your body's insulin will store unused glucose as fat, so if u eat carbs before bed ( the most easily converted macro) then it's safe to say that when ur sleeping your not burning them, so they wil be stored as body fat, if u eat them in the morning your body uses 3 times the amount of energy just by being awake, so logically they will be used not stored


So your body's not using energy for growth while you sleep?

To answer op. Yeah I'd say all meal timing is bollox. Just think, when you eat your dinner, does it fly through your stomach and intestines or does it sit there for hours and hours and hours waiting for the **** that you ate for breakfast and lunch to digest? That's right, it sits there. If you sat and ate donuts and crisps right before bed I wouldn't imagine it even being digested and utilized till morning. All that's important is that between waking and sleeping you hit your macros. Your guts will digest and utilise the nutrients as and when it wants to.

Of course I could just be talking **** just to spite you all


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## Big_Al13 (May 2, 2013)

Pscarb said:


> why is it irrelevant for when you are cutting? you will drop more fat if you time your meals so insulin is not released as this stops fat burning, in the morning when we wake up we are at our highest at burning fat the body is primed if your goal is fat loss the best thing you can do is have a black coffee and wait 2-3hrs to eat anything then have P/F this will extend the fat burning effect the body has, opposed to getting up and slamming down some oats, fruit etc which releases insulin and stops all fat burning..........
> 
> Carb timing is extremely relevant no matter if you are cutting or bulking natural or assisted....


From my limited knowledge, this is why IF works so well for some people. I use it and won't eat until 14-16hours later. My carbs throughout the day are only obtained through veg (normally brocolli) at midday and 3pm, then I'll get some more later in the evening, Brown rice or sweet potato or a shed load of veggies. I'm dropping weight slowly and getting stronger so it can't all be being converted to fat can it.


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## fletcher1 (Jun 14, 2012)

Pscarb said:


> if you eat nothing all day (carb wise)and your daily macro's was 200g of carbs you could eat these in one meal and not store any as fat but i am up for learning new things so if you want to detail the carbs in the blood stream theory i am all ears.......
> 
> and you could eat 2-3 meal of this size if you timed them properly and still not gain fat


The 200g of carbs was just a figure from air, the point I'm trying to make is once your have filled up your stores, weather it's 200 needed or 500, fat gets stored as you have eaten too much and are not using it (sleeping) and what you have eaten previous to this becomes irrelevant, the fact is if u over do the carbs u will gain fat, and it is easier to do this at night time because this is the time when they are least utilised, this is where the theory comes from, it is not set in stone but there is some truth behind it


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

goldenballs23 said:


> You won't win an argument with the pieman.


i am not arguing this is how the body works....



Big_Al13 said:


> From my limited knowledge, this is why IF works so well for some people. I use it and won't eat until 14-16hours later. My carbs throughout the day are only obtained through veg (normally brocolli) at midday and 3pm, then I'll get some more later in the evening, Brown rice or sweet potato or a shed load of veggies. I'm dropping weight slowly and getting stronger so it can't all be being converted to fat can it.


yes it is a similar approach however IF is no good for muscle building restraining from eating carbs until later in the day 11am is a good time...

Guys if something is working for you then follow it but be aware that observing that something works does not make it Fact, when you look into how diet effects hormones and how the body reacts manipulation of hormones is key in my opinion to real growth (combined with a few other factors) hormones (insulin, cortisol, GH etc) can positively effect and negatively effect the body for both fat burning and muscle building....

For those that believe that if you eat carbs at night your body stores them as fat please explain how the body handles a food type differently depending on the time of the day and remember although still asleep you still have to generate heat, keep the body functioning even when you sleep..........this all needs energy and energy is not something that is dictated hourly but over a daily cycle (calories = heat)


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

fletcher1 said:


> The 200g of carbs was just a figure from air, the point I'm trying to make is once your have filled up your stores, weather it's 200 needed or 500, fat gets stored as you have eaten too much and are not using it (sleeping) and what you have eaten previous to this becomes irrelevant, the fact is if u over do the carbs u will gain fat, and it is easier to do this at night time because this is the time when they are least utilised, this is where the theory comes from, it is not set in stone but there is some truth behind it


You never said that you said if you eat nothing all day then eat that amount in one meal you would gain fat this is incorrect, it is not irrelevant what you have eaten before this, of course if you have met your calorie needs and you eat over that amount then yes fat will be stored but this will happen be it 9.00 am in the morning or at 9.00 PM at night

You are under the assumption that you need no or less calories when you sleep yet your body still needs to convert calories to heat to maintain body temp and growth and function of internal organs.......when you look at a 1/3-2/3s of the carbs you eat are converted to energy to heat your body, maintain body temp etc this all makes sense.

If you are eating a diet to maintain your weight it is irrelevant when you eat the carbs, carbs are no more easily stored as fat as protein is (same calorific value) the problem with most is that they have no idea what number of calories are needed to maintain there weight......


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## Breda (May 2, 2011)

fletcher1 said:


> The 200g of carbs was just a figure from air, the point I'm trying to make is once your have filled up your stores, weather it's 200 needed or 500, fat gets stored as you have eaten too much and are not using it (sleeping) and what you have eaten previous to this becomes irrelevant, the fact is if u over do the carbs u will gain fat, and it is easier to do this at night time because this is the time when they are least utilised, this is where the theory comes from, it is not set in stone but there is some truth behind it


If I was you I'd stop commenting and just read


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## Smitch (Dec 29, 2008)

I have carbs in a shake before bed and a load with my evening meal, growing well at the minute.


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## 2004mark (Oct 26, 2013)

@Pscarb

I understand when you get to the level where you're thinking about competing then details start to make all the difference, but I've never worried about nutrition timing at all, simply because I don't see myself at the level where I need to concern myself with such things... well other than maybe consuming a decent amount of calories pwo. I'm not silly with my approach, I just split my meals throughout the day mainly to suit hunger. I'm also not overly strict with that I eat (although very limited/no processed foods), I just try to get enough protein and my calories right.

Because of this it drives me mad when I see newbies concerning themselves with details like this, also worrying about whether foods are clean or not... when the week before they were your average fast food junkie.

On the whole, do you think these are the sort of things that average trainers really need to even think about? Genuinely interested in your opinion on this.


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## Fatstuff (Mar 2, 2010)

2004mark said:


> @Pscarb
> 
> I understand when you get to the level where you're thinking about competing then details start to make all the difference, but I've never worried about nutrition timing at all, simply because I don't see myself at the level where I need to concern myself with such details... well other than maybe consuming a decent amount of calories pwo. I'm not silly with my approach, I just split my meals throughout the day mainly to suit hunger. I'm also not overly strict with that I eat, I just try to get enough protein and my calories right.
> 
> ...


A good point, I find some people worry about the smaller and more complicated details while totally missing the bigger picture (ie eat more food lol)


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

2004mark said:


> @Pscarb
> 
> I understand when you get to the level where you're thinking about competing then details start to make all the difference, but I've never worried about nutrition timing at all, simply because I don't see myself at the level where I need to concern myself with such things... well other than maybe consuming a decent amount of calories pwo. I'm not silly with my approach, I just split my meals throughout the day mainly to suit hunger. I'm also not overly strict with that I eat (although very limited/no processed foods), I just try to get enough protein and my calories right.
> 
> ...


I understand where you are coming from but timing of macro's is not the finer details (although you have to go into finer details to dispel the myths that are inbred into some people) I was not born with this much muscle and if truth be known many on this board have better physiques than I had at the same stage, I did not look into hormones back then what I did do is detail what I put in my mouth I knew what I was eating and to be fair the first realisation was I was eating far to little for growth, then over the last 10yrs (2004 was the last time I lost a qualifier) I looked at carb cycling, timing, backloading etc and found that with manipulation you could grow better.....

So whilst I agree the finer points are just that and more focus needs to be placed on the basics but for me and those who I coach the basics are more than just chicken and rice and squats.......the problem is that many over complicate things.......

I see many opinions in this thread making many assumptions about what carbs can or cannot do yet I wonder how many speak from experience or something they have read? My new very apt phrase is "just because you observe something does not make it fact"

If you are making progress doing what you are doing then keep doing it but do not make the wrong assumption what you are doing cannot be improved in some way, we are all always learning I know I am, After much research i altered my own diet to focus my carbs more in the PM hours I got leaner and stronger? Whilst being off cycle? I will research more and apply changes so I can grow I won't be using advanced methods just basics and the manipulation of makro's..........these are the basics...

More and more I see people looking for the answer to questions like "how will this diet be different to this one" who can tell? What ever happened to trial and error? Do both diets for 2-3 months and record the results, if you cannot be bothered then you will not progress it is really that simple..........but then the question needs to be asked what do you count as progress? How different are you now than you was last year? Only this can tell you how good not looking at the details is for you and your physique....


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## Fatstuff (Mar 2, 2010)

Bump

I like this thread, interesting subject matter


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## 2004mark (Oct 26, 2013)

Pscarb said:


> I understand where you are coming from but timing of macro's is not the finer details (although you have to go into finer details to dispel the myths that are inbred into some people) I was not born with this much muscle and if truth be known many on this board have better physiques than I had at the same stage, I did not look into hormones back then what I did do is detail what I put in my mouth I knew what I was eating and to be fair the first realisation was I was eating far to little for growth, then over the last 10yrs (2004 was the last time I lost a qualifier) I looked at carb cycling, timing, backloading etc and found that with manipulation you could grow better.....
> 
> So whilst I agree the finer points are just that and more focus needs to be placed on the basics but for me and those who I coach the basics are more than just chicken and rice and squats.......the problem is that many over complicate things.......
> 
> ...


Precisely the reason I was interested in hearing your view on the subject.

I have to admit, even though I try to keep things simple, I am a sucker for a good scientific theory, but equally I've got the up most respect for anyone who's been there and done it and always interested in hearing their experiences.

One thing I have learnt though, is there always more than one way to skin a cat. Another thing that trying to manipulate your body composition feels like trying to turn the titanic sometimes, so I guess while the details might feel like they are not making a difference they add up in the end (providing your consistent).

It's this that is the most intriguing thing about this game... even with all theories and experience combined, people will still have different opinions and approaches.

You probably didn't intended it to be, but that's some pretty inspirational reading... a brief insight into the mentality it take to compete.


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## DutchTony (Sep 25, 2011)

DutchTony said:


> :lol:
> 
> I genuinely thought you meant 200g protein in one meal. I've been trying to up my protein in every meal recently. Yesterday my post workout meal was
> 
> ...





L11 said:


> Ummmm whey?!


As in - have a double protein drink with my meal to take it up to approx 150g protein?


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## simonthepieman (Jun 11, 2012)

Pscarb said:


> why is it irrelevant for when you are cutting? you will drop more fat if you time your meals so insulin is not released as this stops fat burning, in the morning when we wake up we are at our highest at burning fat the body is primed if your goal is fat loss the best thing you can do is have a black coffee and wait 2-3hrs to eat anything then have P/F this will extend the fat burning effect the body has, opposed to getting up and slamming down some oats, fruit etc which releases insulin and stops all fat burning..........
> 
> Carb timing is extremely relevant no matter if you are cutting or bulking natural or assisted....


Interesting. I have some questions

insulin is still raised by the p/f meal right? Albeit less amounts. How different to the body's signalling is it from carbs to effect fat burning?

So the the net energy difference I'd the same. But one stops 'fat burning' earlier in the day.' How does the body address the difference?


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

simonthepieman said:


> Interesting. I have some questions
> 
> insulin is still raised by the p/f meal right? Albeit less amounts. How different to the body's signalling is it from carbs to effect fat burning?


why are you reading this that you stop all carbs?? i clearly said that you make the most of that fat burning state your body is ion by not eating *anything* for 2-3hrs and just taking a black coffee, then have aP/F meal yes i am aware that there will be a small insulin spike but the aim is not to shut off all insulin for the entire day but to take advantage of the fat burning state your body is in.....



simonthepieman said:


> So the the net energy difference I'd the same. But one stops 'fat burning' earlier in the day.' How does the body address the difference?


address what difference? why is there a difference to address you abstain from eating for the first few hours to enhance the fat burning effect your body is in through high cortisol and low insulin, your calories for the day will be unchanged so i see no 'net energy difference'??? sorry i may have misread your question??


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

2004mark said:


> Precisely the reason I was interested in hearing your view on the subject.
> 
> I have to admit, even though I try to keep things simple, I am a sucker for a good scientific theory, but equally I've got the up most respect for anyone who's been there and done it and always interested in hearing their experiences.
> 
> ...


in bold is the most important message, i see it alot these days that guys and girls want the one way that's best but that does not exist, i could tell someone how to improve a method to get better results but there are many paths to get to that detailed point (for example the addition of leucine for insulin sensitivity or taurine for leptin sensitivity) but these are finer detailed points and would not give the required results if the basics are not covered and many do not cover the basics.

many will say that there is no need to count calories or macro's but then i would ask how do you know what to increase when you hit a wall? yes you could increase food in general but you may be lacking in essential fats, complex carbs, whole protein sources.....many believe that when you get to a point of development to push past that you need a special secret combo of drugs it is not that at all (please no one say that i said drugs don't help as they do but if they where the answer everyone would be huge and they are not) it is you understand nutrition and supplementation (to allow the body to grow and recover naturally) a lot better, i am at a stage where i notice the difference slight changes give be this manipulating my carb timing or by adding leucine post workout etc........

my point is i did not suddenly wake up and be at this point you achieve it by going through the stages, so if you are happy in what you are doing (comment in general not aimed at any one) what ever that maybe and really don't care about the finer details as many do say on this forum then why do guys join BB forums?? you do it to better your knowledge to be more efficient this is the finer details..........and this is what gets you from one stage of development to the next....


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## seany1 (Apr 27, 2013)

I personally doubt "carb timing" etc makes any difference.

IMO if you eat for example, a diet of (grams) 200pro, 200carb, 40 fat while cutting , this will give aprox 2160 total cals, I don't believe it will make an iota of difference whether you eat all your carbs in one go, only eat them at certain times or whatever else. If all else, training, rest, cardio, 'assistance' are all the same you will end up with the same results regardless of how you "time" your carbs.

IMO the reason people do not get the results they are after is because they either cheat on their macros or have simply not worked out the correct macros for their goals, rather than it having anything to do with them not "timing" their carbs right.


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## nick-h (Nov 17, 2011)

Pscarb your point about not eatting till 2-3hrs after waking to help optimize fat loss, does this still apply if you train AM? or is it better to then have a p/f meal after training or a p/c meal or still not eat for another 2-3hrs?

I currently train fasted in the AM and don't eat until 12:30 with just BCAA's after training.

Carb timing is a topic I am very interested in as currently I run a low carb diet under 50g a day it does help with my fat loss quite a lot weather it helps with my growth is a another matter.


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## simonthepieman (Jun 11, 2012)

Pscarb said:


> why are you reading this that you stop all carbs?? i clearly said that you make the most of that fat burning state your body is ion by not eating *anything* for 2-3hrs and just taking a black coffee, then have aP/F meal yes i am aware that there will be a small insulin spike but the aim is not to shut off all insulin for the entire day but to take advantage of the fat burning state your body is in.....
> 
> address what difference? why is there a difference to address you abstain from eating for the first few hours to enhance the fat burning effect your body is in through high cortisol and low insulin, your calories for the day will be unchanged so i see no 'net energy difference'??? sorry i may have misread your question??


for the last bit, if the deficit is the same, what benefit of this 'fat burning state' If the net deficit is the same and consistent, they energy will eventually have to come from reserved stores ie fat.


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

simonthepieman said:


> for the last bit, if the deficit is the same, what benefit of this 'fat burning state' If the net deficit is the same and consistent, they energy will eventually have to come from reserved stores ie fat.


what defecit?? you naturally wake in a fat burning state my point is that instead of hitting a breakfast at say 7.00 am of the normal carb infused food thus stopping all fat burning your body is naturally doing you prolong the fat burning state by not eating breakfast for 2-3hrs thus taking advantage of your natural hormones.......i fail to understand why you are over complicating what is a very simple thing??


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## simonthepieman (Jun 11, 2012)

Pscarb said:


> what defecit?? you naturally wake in a fat burning state my point is that instead of hitting a breakfast at say 7.00 am of the normal carb infused food thus stopping all fat burning your body is naturally doing you prolong the fat burning state by not eating breakfast for 2-3hrs thus taking advantage of your natural hormones.......i fail to understand why you are over complicating what is a very simple thing??


I couldn't be under-complicating things more. If you are trying to lose fat, you create a deficit. When the 'fat burning mode' is interrupted, it still has to get tap into it's resources sooner or later


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

seany1 said:


> I personally doubt "carb timing" etc makes any difference.
> 
> IMO if you eat for example, a diet of (grams) 200pro, 200carb, 40 fat while cutting , this will give aprox 2160 total cals, I don't believe it will make an iota of difference whether you eat all your carbs in one go, only eat them at certain times or whatever else. If all else, training, rest, cardio, 'assistance' are all the same you will end up with the same results regardless of how you "time" your carbs.
> 
> IMO the reason people do not get the results they are after is because they either cheat on their macros or have simply not worked out the correct macros for their goals, rather than it having anything to do with them not "timing" their carbs right.


you doubt it works because you have done it or because you THINK it won't?? you example would give different results if you eat 250g Pro, 150gcarbs, 40g fats but the calories are still the same 2160 as your example so if a diet of the exact same calories will give different results due to TEF (Theromogenic Effect of Food) so if this is the case and this is how the body works not just my opinion, why do you feel that manipulating timing of your macro intake will not matter?? now i have done this for both me and several clients and all progressed and got better results.......THINKING something will not work because you do not understand the process is very different from something not working.



nick-h said:


> Pscarb your point about not eatting till 2-3hrs after waking to help optimize fat loss, does this still apply if you train AM? or is it better to then have a p/f meal after training or a p/c meal or still not eat for another 2-3hrs?
> 
> I currently train fasted in the AM and don't eat until 12:30 with just BCAA's after training.
> 
> Carb timing is a topic I am very interested in as currently I run a low carb diet under 50g a day it does help with my fat loss quite a lot weather it helps with my growth is a another matter.


this is a totally different kettle of fish as recovery has to be key be this for cutting or bulking not eating carbs around training in my experience and opinion is not a very good way to go for progression due to lack of recovery (enter those who claim nutrition around training does not matter blah blah) i cannot answer with your specifics but if you have a solid nutritional base through the day there is no need to eat before a very early training session and strength will not be effected (if you eat a high simple carb meal straight before training you would not benefit from the energy it gives in that session) my advice to you would be split those carbs (although i feel these are to low) 25g intra workout in a drink that contains EAA's then the remaining 25g post workout in the form of white bread or cereal, i guarantee you will not put on any fat


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

simonthepieman said:


> I couldn't be under-complicating things more. If you are trying to lose fat, you create a deficit. When the 'fat burning mode' is interrupted, it still has to get tap into it's resources sooner or later


your body is in a fat burning mode when you wake FACT........

when you eat you release insulin FACT

the fact you have not eaten for many hours means the state your body is in you will use more fat by NOT eating for 2-3hrs after waking the fat burning process is interrupted by eating and insulin being released i fail to see your misunderstanding i do not know how simple i can make it........you are enhancing a mode that is all ready there...?????

although i get the feeling there was something in what @goldenballs23 said in his last post


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## nick-h (Nov 17, 2011)

Pscarb said:


> this is a totally different kettle of fish as recovery has to be key be this for cutting or bulking not eating carbs around training in my experience and opinion is not a very good way to go for progression due to lack of recovery (enter those who claim nutrition around training does not matter blah blah) i cannot answer with your specifics but if you have a solid nutritional base through the day there is no need to eat before a very early training session and strength will not be effected (if you eat a high simple carb meal straight before training you would not benefit from the energy it gives in that session) my advice to you would be split those carbs (although i feel these are to low) 25g intra workout in a drink that contains EAA's then the remaining 25g post workout in the form of white bread or cereal, i guarantee you will not put on any fat


would the pre workout carbs make a lot of difference as I never really feel a lack of energy during my 6am workout, would there be any great difference to 50g post workout only? i'm quite happy to eat simple carbs post workout I chuffing love toast haha

Another question which is quite often debated is the optimal "window" after training to get your carbs and protein in, many people say under an hour after training for post workout


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## simonthepieman (Jun 11, 2012)

Pscarb said:


> your body is in a fat burning mode when you wake FACT........
> 
> when you eat you release insulin FACT
> 
> ...


cool stuff, i agree with, possibly why when following the leangains approach you stop getting hungry in the morning (the supply of energy is there) but you are avoiding addressing the last point I mentioned. Which is if the deficit is the same whilst cutting. If you interrupt the 'fat burning mode' you wake up with, it has to enter it again to readdress the energy deficit. So does it really matter?


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## Robbie789 (Sep 6, 2012)

simonthepieman said:


> cool stuff, i agree with, possibly why when following the leangains approach you stop getting hungry in the morning (the supply of energy is there) but you are avoiding addressing the last point I mentioned. Which is if the deficit is the same whilst cutting. If you interrupt the 'fat burning mode' you wake up with, it has to enter it again to readdress the energy deficit. So does it really matter?


I think all PScarb is saying is that if you don't eat for a few hours after waking, your body has 2-3 hours more to burn that extra 0.1lb (random figure) of fat, which you would be stopping if you ate as soon as you wake.


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## 2004mark (Oct 26, 2013)

simonthepieman said:


> I couldn't be under-complicating things more. If you are trying to lose fat, you create a deficit. When the 'fat burning mode' is interrupted, it still has to get tap into it's resources sooner or later


I'm on your wavelength regarding the energy conservation thing... what you end up with (body wise) is only the total of what you put in (food) minus what you take out (energy expenditure). This is about as complex as I've chosen to make things for myself too.

What it doesn't take into consideration though is how you can tweak the composition of the mass you gain or loose by using hormone levels to your advantage. For example, if you're in a deficit of 500cals for the day. you're right in thinking that your body has to find those 500cals from somewhere regardless of when the cals were consumed. The presumption your making though is that they will always come from fat, when in reality it will be a mixture of muscle and fat. It's the ratio of these two that timings can help to optimise... or that's what I'm understanding anyway.


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## simonthepieman (Jun 11, 2012)

@Pscarb - you mention that black coffee the later p/f meal to follow is the best (or at least a good) protocol to follow. Is it exaggerated by a stronger stimulant such as ECA or clen or does that deviate into a larger discussion?


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## simonthepieman (Jun 11, 2012)

Also i know i can be direct with questions, i can't see why some people get in such a hissy fit. If something doesn't make sense, i ask questions. If it doesn't make sense, ask more.

Too many people ask a question or read a headline and just go passing around the information without a 2nd thought. I am genuinely interested in this subject, before i pass advice on to anyone else I want to make sure I understand it.


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

robdobbie said:


> I think all PScarb is saying is that if you don't eat for a few hours after waking, your body has 2-3 hours more to burn that extra 0.1lb (random figure) of fat, which you would be stopping if you ate as soon as you wake.


BOOOOMMMMMM thank god.........


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

simonthepieman said:


> Also i know i can be direct with questions, i can't see why some people get in such a hissy fit. If something doesn't make sense, i ask questions. If it doesn't make sense, ask more.
> 
> Too many people ask a question or read a headline and just go passing around the information without a 2nd thought. I am genuinely interested in this subject, before i pass advice on to anyone else I want to make sure I understand it.


i am not getting in a hissy fit your question makes no sense to the subject i have posted about....


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## Talaria (Jun 30, 2011)

Pscarb said:


> i am not getting in a hissy fit your question makes no sense to the subject i have posted about....


You were warned. :laugh:


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## simonthepieman (Jun 11, 2012)

Pscarb said:


> i am not getting in a hissy fit your question makes no sense to the subject i have posted about....


I wasn't referring to you on that

I ask you questions, because you are a fountain of knowledge and I trust your knowledge to be deep


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## 2004mark (Oct 26, 2013)

Pscarb said:


> in bold is the most important message, i see it alot these days that guys and girls want the one way that's best but that does not exist, i could tell someone how to improve a method to get better results but there are many paths to get to that detailed point (for example the addition of leucine for insulin sensitivity or taurine for leptin sensitivity) but these are finer detailed points and would not give the required results if the basics are not covered and many do not cover the basics.
> 
> many will say that there is no need to count calories or macro's but then i would ask how do you know what to increase when you hit a wall? yes you could increase food in general but you may be lacking in essential fats, complex carbs, whole protein sources.....many believe that when you get to a point of development to push past that you need a special secret combo of drugs it is not that at all (please no one say that i said drugs don't help as they do but if they where the answer everyone would be huge and they are not) it is you understand nutrition and supplementation (to allow the body to grow and recover naturally) a lot better, i am at a stage where i notice the difference slight changes give be this manipulating my carb timing or by adding leucine post workout etc........
> 
> my point is i did not suddenly wake up and be at this point you achieve it by going through the stages, so if you are happy in what you are doing (comment in general not aimed at any one) what ever that maybe and really don't care about the finer details as many do say on this forum then why do guys join BB forums?? you do it to better your knowledge to be more efficient this is the finer details..........and this is what gets you from one stage of development to the next....


I couldn't agree more with all of that.

It all comes down to commitment I guess... and if I'm brutally honest, while I commit to a certain point I've only really ever tried to push my boundaries on two occasions and both times I've fulfilled my expectations. This time last year I had not long ago won a TM transformation contest (a small achievement in the grand scheme of things I know) but was in the best shape of my life, then I started my own business and thing have slipped a little... not loads, but it's gone backwards none the less.

I only started posting again the last few weeks, but this thread and your contribution in particular has just really sparked the fire again.

Maybe time to try a few new things, cheers :beer:


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## Robbie789 (Sep 6, 2012)

simonthepieman said:


> I wasn't referring to you on that
> 
> I ask you questions, because you are a fountain of knowledge and I trust your knowledge to be deep


The more I read that, the more I think there should be a 'nohomo' inserted somewhere


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## simonthepieman (Jun 11, 2012)

robdobbie said:


> The more I read that, the more I think there should be a 'nohomo' inserted somewhere


there is always something **** in all posts on a BB forum :lol:


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

simonthepieman said:


> I wasn't referring to you on that
> 
> I ask you questions, because you are a fountain of knowledge and I trust your knowledge to be deep


ah then you can see my confusion as when i first posted you said "a few questions" so obviously i assumed they where about what i had mentioned......

so to be clear and to end confusion the question?



2004mark said:


> I couldn't agree more with all of that.
> 
> It all comes down to commitment I guess... and if I'm brutally honest, while I commit to a certain point I've only really ever tried to push my boundaries on two occasions and both times I've fulfilled my expectations. This time last year I had not long ago won a TM transformation contest (a small achievement in the grand scheme of things I know) but was in the best shape of my life, then I started my own business and thing have slipped a little... not loads, but it's gone backwards none the less.
> 
> ...


and this again is a great point this for everyone on this board is a hobby and should come second to the bigger things like starting your own business, family etc......but now you know yourself that when applied the results do come and goals are achieved and this is again my point....many claim that they are not bothered by what they call the little things yet seek that knowledge everyday when they come on to a forum i just think some should stop trying to be all "yea i am not bothered doing it this way works for me" yet they are normally the ones who have no picture of themselves in there profile/Avi 

i do not know it all far from it but i do believe that before you judge a method you try it first, i have been guilty of doing this in the past i totally dismissed HIIT cardio and stuck with LSS for many years because my condition on stage was good until i tried it last year for the NABBA Universe and by many peoples opinions i was at my very best go figure  no one should ever be closed to new methods we all should be willing to learn.....


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## simonthepieman (Jun 11, 2012)

Pscarb said:


> ah then you can see my confusion as when i first posted you said "a few questions" so obviously i assumed they where about what i had mentioned......
> 
> so to be clear and to end confusion the question?


sorry, i need to be more articulate and verbose when on the phone sometimes.

Goldenballs23 seems to have an issue with me trying to break down advice and opinions when I deem it unclear or invalid. Which when you have a look at his journal you'll see what happens when don't know how to pick from good and not so good advice.

@Pscarb, is it possible you can go back and look at the question about stimulants (ECA and clen) on an empty stomach.


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

simonthepieman said:


> @Pscarb - you mention that black coffee the later p/f meal to follow is the best (or at least a good) protocol to follow. Is it exaggerated by a stronger stimulant such as ECA or clen or does that deviate into a larger discussion?


well it does deviate a little but still in the scope of the debate, it will of course add to the fat burning as that is what they do on there own plus certainly with ECA the appetite suppression will be a good thing, a better choice would be Yohimbine HCL as this works slightly better without carbs.......


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## bigtommay (Jun 26, 2012)

@Pscarb

Im confused as fvck here so i'll list two scenarios and hopefully dumb it down for me.

1.Wake at 8am. Dont eat til 12am then eat 3kcals up until bed time.

2. Wake at 8am. Have 700cal brekkie at 8.30 and then go on to eat 2300 cals up until bedtime.

Energy expenditure the same in both situations (ie greater than 3000)

Macros the same in both situations.

Are we saying that scenario a yields better fat loss results all being equal?

Thanks mate.


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## simonthepieman (Jun 11, 2012)

bigtommay said:


> @Pscarb
> 
> Im confused as fvck here so i'll list two scenarios and hopefully dumb it down for me.
> 
> ...


A far more articulate explanation of my confusion


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

bigtommay said:


> @Pscarb
> 
> Im confused as fvck here so i'll list two scenarios and hopefully dumb it down for me.
> 
> ...


well my point is not to withhold eating until 12am, but to not jump straight into a meal with carbs and to take advantage of the fat burning process you are in when you wake.......

try it buddy for example i woke at 7.00am this morning and eat my first meal (shake and nuts) at 9.30am thus taking advantage of the fat burning state my body is in when i wake (lack of insulin etc...)

it is not rocket science guys here is the dumb down version........

WAKE UP, DO NOT EAT ANYTHING FOR 2HRS (INCLUDING SHAKES) HAVE A BLACK COFFEE!!!!!!!! then resume normal diet...........sorry guys but i really do not know how to make it more simple.


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## andyfrance001 (Jan 11, 2011)

I've been stopping carbs around 1pm each day now for the past two months, never had so many compliments on how cut i look, best i've ever looked actually ready for the stage


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## Matt 1 (May 8, 2010)

L11 said:


> I reckon so.. But to be honest meal and macro timing is the biggest thing about nutrition that I can't quite get..
> 
> This had to have come from some truth surely?


What carbs at night could do is disturb your sleep, and as we know a decent nights rest is vital to aid recovery and growth.

I think the 'no carbs at night' thing also was a tip ment for your average Joe Bloggs.

Picture the scenario at night, joe bloggs is sitting on the sofa at 11pm... feels hungry.. hes hardly going to go grab some slow release oats... more likely to be some white bread, noodles, crisps, chocolate, sweets something rubbish like that.... all of which are high calorie.... Joe blogs wouldn't get to 11pm at night and fancy some protein... so I reckon this is where the idea of no carbs before bed started from. Because by saying no carbs before bed to the average person, that really means no food at all, apart from something low cal... which means they are less likely to consume more calories than there maintence level and thus will not put on weight

In short

-It might effect your sleep - which could hinder recovery/growth

-If you dont count calories, you may end up consuming excess calories, which will lead to fat gain


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

andyfrance001 said:


> I've been stopping carbs around 1pm each day now for the past two months, never had so many compliments on how cut i look, best i've ever looked actually ready for the stage


have you replaced the calories with Pro or Fat calories?


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## Matt 1 (May 8, 2010)

I've tired intermittent fasting where I start eating at midday and finish eating at 8pm, then fast till midday next day

Very good results, look shredded and maintained mass

Loads of health benefits too

however I have also eaten bread etc for a period of months before bed.. and equally seen good results

it all comes down to numbers really... workout your TDEE, eat more to gain muscle, eat less to lose fat


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

Matt 1 said:


> What carbs at night could do is disturb your sleep, and as we know a decent nights rest is vital to aid recovery and growth.
> 
> I think the 'no carbs at night' thing also was a tip ment for your average Joe Bloggs.
> 
> ...


carbs contain tryptophan which will enhance sleep not disturb ?? i will agree if you are not counting what you eat a meal before bed could give more calories than you need and thus add to fat stores but then if this is the case then this debate is way above your head (not yours) and you should move on to a debate on "How to Lift" or "How to eat"


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## Matt 1 (May 8, 2010)

Pscarb said:


> carbs contain tryptophan which will enhance sleep not disturb ?? i will agree if you are not counting what you eat a meal before bed could give more calories than you need and thus add to fat stores but then if this is the case then this debate is way above your head (not yours) and you should move on to a debate on "How to Lift" or "How to eat"


Of course, but I know theres a lot of keen gym goers who are not counting their cals... I used to be one!

And I am really refering to the OP's first question of 'where it might have spawned from'

And I believe it was probably something ment for the average person, not someone who gyms.. and for the average person, its going to work

I know of tryptophan, but im sure ive read about heavy eating (not neccasirly carbs) before bed disturbing sleep


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## CJ (Apr 24, 2006)

I consume all carbs post workout, so between the window of 6.30pm-10pm.

Im sleeping well, condition is holding (if not improving) and im growing very fast.


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## bigtommay (Jun 26, 2012)

Pscarb said:


> well my point is not to withhold eating until 12am, but to not jump straight into a meal with carbs and to take advantage of the fat burning process you are in when you wake.......
> 
> try it buddy for example i woke at 7.00am this morning and eat my first meal (shake and nuts) at 9.30am thus taking advantage of the fat burning state my body is in when i wake (lack of insulin etc...)
> 
> ...


Thats fair enough mate but it doesnt really answer my dumb dumb a or b question lol. Lets make scenario a's first meal at 10am then. Are you saying scenario a should give a better result for fat loss? If so then i'll do it


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## BennyC (Mar 18, 2010)

I used CBL at the start of my cut and backloaded for 4-5 weeks. With zero carb until post workout and then all high GI and I mean 3-4-500g of carbs in the evening (doughnuts, banana cake, custard, icecream, strudle, croissants & nutella, sweet potato, white rice etc). Still lost 6KG in the process.

It's totally changed my view on carbs, I'd recommend reading the CBL book though there is a newer less confusing version out shortly). I'm currently carb cycling and whilst nutrient timing is essential I don't really believe in the myth of carbs before bed. Of course if you've not had a heavy & hard session then your muscles aren't going to soak up and utilise them so they'll be a surplus and treated the same as any other calorie surplus.

High GI are recommended and CBL will only work with them due to the quick & high insulin spike, tapering off before you go to bed when GH/test etc will all rise when insulin has dropped back down. Avoiding any insluin spikes (carbs) for as long as possible leaves cortisol (fat burner) higher for as long as possible.

So having carbs for breakfast in Kiefers eyes and the view of CBL is the worst thing you can do.


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## Pictor (Jan 10, 2011)

BennyC said:


> I used CBL at the start of my cut and backloaded for 4-5 weeks. With zero carb until post workout and then all high GI and I mean 3-4-500g of carbs in the evening (doughnuts, banana cake, custard, icecream, strudle, croissants & nutella, sweet potato, white rice etc). Still lost 6KG in the process.
> 
> It's totally changed my view on carbs, I'd recommend reading the CBL book though there is a newer less confusing version out shortly). I'm currently carb cycling and whilst nutrient timing is essential I don't really believe in the myth of carbs before bed. Of course if you've not had a heavy & hard session then your muscles aren't going to soak up and utilise them so they'll be a surplus and treated the same as any other calorie surplus.
> 
> ...


You got any links to where I can read up CBL mate?


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## Big ape (May 5, 2011)

Decent Read

http://www.biolayne.com/nutrition/carbs-at-night-fat-loss-killer-or-imaginary-boogeyman/


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## simonthepieman (Jun 11, 2012)

I'm not trying to be a dick here @Pscarb But could you answer Tommy's question if you know the answer (cool if you don't), because that was the original point i was getting at and I'm still not clear.

For the record. I just finished a cut and did pretty much exactly what you said to a T. So i'm not naysaying, in fact it's exactly what i've advised other people to do. but i've there are aspects of it I am unlclear whether its hunger mangement or other forces at works and i'm trying to drill down further.

my routine was this.

7am Wake up + ECA

7.30-8.30 Gym

morning coffee

12 am Lunch - half a rotisserie chicken

afternoon - snack if required

Evening = Dinner made up of meat, carbs and veg about 1K calories

Desert or more food if hungry.

I was losing 1.5lb+s a week

saturdays was a 4K refeed with no rules on food.


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## Dux (Nov 29, 2011)

andyfrance001 said:


> I've been stopping carbs around 1pm each day now for the past two months, never had so many compliments on how cut i look, best i've ever looked actually ready for the stage


Ah, the man who replied to my advice telling someone to eat carbs when they want as it won't make the slightest bit of difference providing it fits their macros, replied "that's the worst piece of advice I've ever heard in my life"

It appears there's a lot of knowledgeable people giving out terrible advice....


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## Dh2909 (Aug 9, 2011)

CJ said:


> I consume all carbs post workout, so between the window of 6.30pm-10pm.
> 
> Im sleeping well, condition is holding (if not improving) and im growing very fast.


This will be my protocol in the next few months when I start a bulk


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## DazUKM (Nov 22, 2012)

Big ape said:


> Decent Read
> 
> http://www.biolayne.com/nutrition/carbs-at-night-fat-loss-killer-or-imaginary-boogeyman/


Reading the comments, is John Kiefer Pscarb?


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## G-man99 (Jul 15, 2008)

@Pscarb

I'm not asking for anything complex but could you write a basic days diet for a 200lb male to cut (I say 200lb as it's simple for people to then adjust values to suit)

Also how would this alter from am training to pm training?

Example

7am - coffee

9.30 - p/f 50/20 etc

12.30 - ??

15.30 -??

17.30 - train

19.00 - p/c

22.00- p/f

thanks in advance


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## bigtommay (Jun 26, 2012)

simonthepieman said:


> I'm not trying to be a dick here @Pscarb But could you answer Tommy's question if you know the answer (cool if you don't), because that was the original point i was getting at and I'm still not clear.
> 
> For the record. I just finished a cut and did pretty much exactly what you said to a T. So i'm not naysaying, in fact it's exactly what i've advised other people to do. but i've there are aspects of it I am unlclear whether its hunger mangement or other forces at works and i'm trying to drill down further.
> 
> ...


I think he was answering a) would give better results but just want to be 100% clear on that.

It confuses me slightly though because does this mean that in scenario a. I then have scope to increase my calories a bit more to achieve about the same result as scenario b as it stands? :laugh:


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

bigtommay said:


> Thats fair enough mate but it doesnt really answer my dumb dumb a or b question lol. Lets make scenario a's first meal at 10am then. Are you saying scenario a should give a better result for fat loss? If so then i'll do it


i did answer your question if you do not eat for the first 2 hours after waking you will enhance fat burning again how simple do you want this to be explained????


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## bigtommay (Jun 26, 2012)

Pscarb said:


> i did answer your question if you do not eat for the first 2 hours after waking you will enhance fat burning again how simple do you want this to be explained????


I just wanted you to say a or b mate


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

simonthepieman said:


> I'm not trying to be a dick here @Pscarb But could you answer Tommy's question if you know the answer (cool if you don't), because that was the original point i was getting at and I'm still not clear.
> 
> For the record. I just finished a cut and did pretty much exactly what you said to a T. So i'm not naysaying, in fact it's exactly what i've advised other people to do. but i've there are aspects of it I am unlclear whether its hunger mangement or other forces at works and i'm trying to drill down further.
> 
> ...


to be fair i think you are  i am not going to look at your specific diet and give advice.......as i have said before but will say it once again just for you......if you abstain (meaning do not do it) from eating for 2-3hrs after you wake this will enhance the fat burning state you are in when you wake so you will bun more fat than if you did not..........



D9S4 said:


> Reading the comments, is John Kiefer Pscarb?


nope he is a man i have read and learnt a lot from his book on Carb Backloading is very good



G-man99 said:


> @Pscarb
> 
> I'm not asking for anything complex but could you write a basic days diet for a 200lb male to cut (I say 200lb as it's simple for people to then adjust values to suit)
> 
> ...


i will use one of my clients as an example

typical training day diet

7am - wake coffee

9.30 - p/f

12.30 - P/F

15.30 -P/F

17.30 - train

19.00 - P/C

21.00- P/C

23.00- P/C

this is just one example of carb back loading/timing......others will have a small amount of carbs prior to training

guys if you are not understanding this theory think is it because you are battling with what many have repeated over the years and therefore is considered fact? or you have actually tried this way of eating and it has not worked??


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

bigtommay said:


> I just wanted you to say a or b mate


but what is the point if you do not understand the reason for doing it? understanding a theory allows you to learn and develop your knowledge and physique to a higher degree


----------



## G-man99 (Jul 15, 2008)

Pscarb said:


> i will use one of my clients as an example
> 
> typical training day diet
> 
> ...


One last question, regarding PWO would you still have a shake with malto and then a p/c meal or one or the other?


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## Greg89 (Apr 19, 2010)

I've always been carb sensitive and struggled with keeping the fat off when bulking when carbs are involved....Ive only ever been able to get decent results on a cut using keto and that has left me with low strength and looking flat..

Carb backloading is 100% for me the best diet approach i've ever used. Ive kept relatively lean bulking and lost a lot of fat whilst gaining strength on a cut.

My typical day when weightlifting if u want an idea (far from perfect, just convenient) is:

8am coffee with 15ml heavy cream

12pm chicken/brocolli/cheese

3pm tuna/brocolli/evoo

5pm chicken/brocolli/evoo/cheese

7pm pwo whey/dextrose

8pm chicken/rice or wraps or sweet potato

11pm greek yoghurt or rice cakes

On non weight training days its the same but I skip pwo shake and replace the 8pm meal with a steak or a gammon with veg.

I havent put weights etc on as i adjust them when bulking/cutting or when gains stall.

6 weeks into a recomp at the minute after some timeoff and im loving the results


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

simonthepieman said:


> I'm not trying to be a dick here @Pscarb But could you answer Tommy's question if you know the answer (cool if you don't), because that was the original point i was getting at and I'm still not clear.
> 
> For the record. I just finished a cut and did pretty much exactly what you said to a T. So i'm not naysaying, in fact it's exactly what i've advised other people to do. but i've there are aspects of it I am unlclear whether its hunger mangement or other forces at works and i'm trying to drill down further.
> 
> ...


just a small note i am not suprised you would lose weight as you have no idea what you are eating and it is not constant, you mention your dinner is approx 1k in calories but you weigh nothing so really it could be much less or more?? if this works for you then great but i see no point in looking into the finer details like the subject here about enhancing fat loss when you really do not have a clue what your eat on a daily basis nor do you on a refeed unless you weigh your food on a refeed but not in the week?.....

but like i said if this works then great i am not having a dig at what you do but am confused by some of your posts looking into the finer details when your own diet is so open for change on a daily basis......


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

G-man99 said:


> One last question, regarding PWO would you still have a shake with malto and then a p/c meal or one or the other?


sorry missed that in my haste....revised..

7am - wake coffee

9.30 - p/f

12.30 - P/F

15.30 -P/F

17.30 - train (carb drink intra training)

PWO - P/C (cereal or white bread or carb drink)

19.00- P/C approx 60-90 min after PWO meal)

21.00- P/C

23.00- P/C


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

Greg89 said:


> I've always been carb sensitive and struggled with keeping the fat off when bulking when carbs are involved....Ive only ever been able to get decent results on a cut using keto and that has left me with low strength and looking flat..
> 
> Carb backloading is 100% for me the best diet approach i've ever used. Ive kept relatively lean bulking and lost a lot of fat whilst gaining strength on a cut.
> 
> ...


like this, this is a typical backloading type diet


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## bigtommay (Jun 26, 2012)

Pscarb said:


> but what is the point if you do not understand the reason for doing it? understanding a theory allows you to learn and develop your knowledge and physique to a higher degree


I think i do understand mate but i want to be sure im not misunderstanding by laying it out in simple terms. I'm sure that your answer is a. Which does defy a lot of what is touted around but i trust you may be right on this.

I hinted at this above but as the fat burning process is increased using this method. Does this theoretically mean that you coukd eat a tad more using this method to achieve the same (or better still) results as you would eating less on the more conventional get up and eat some carbs method?


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## simonthepieman (Jun 11, 2012)

Pscarb said:


> just a small note i am not suprised you would lose weight as you have no idea what you are eating and it is not constant, you mention your dinner is approx 1k in calories but you weigh nothing so really it could be much less or more?? if this works for you then great but i see no point in looking into the finer details like the subject here about enhancing fat loss when you really do not have a clue what your eat on a daily basis nor do you on a refeed unless you weigh your food on a refeed but not in the week?.....
> 
> but like i said if this works then great i am not having a dig at what you do but am confused by some of your posts looking into the finer details when your own diet is so open for change on a daily basis......


You are jumping to conclusions here. I just outlined a rough template

I track every macro and calorie I eat when cutting and ensure I hit a macro goal for P and F everyday. However I eat different things every day and at different times if i am hungry. If the missus cooks me a smaller meal. I'll make it up elsewhere. Sometimes I will eat less on certain days, sometimes more. But looking to have a net 5K deficit by Friday PM


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## seany1 (Apr 27, 2013)

Pscarb said:


> you doubt it works because you have done it or because you THINK it won't?? you example would give different results if you eat 250g Pro, 150gcarbs, 40g fats but the calories are still the same 2160 as your example so if a diet of the exact same calories will give different results due to TEF (Theromogenic Effect of Food) so if this is the case and this is how the body works not just my opinion, why do you feel that manipulating timing of your macro intake will not matter?? now i have done this for both me and several clients and all progressed and got better results.......THINKING something will not work because you do not understand the process is very different from something not working.


My opinion is based on my own experience, reading and discussion with people whose opinion I respect. I use the word think because I am not arrogant enough to claim what I'm saying is definitive fact, I prefer to let others make those claims 

Please don't misconstrue what I'm saying, I am not saying that I don't think macro breakdown has any relevance because I believe there are quite a few studies that show higher protein diets are superior for preserving lean mass whilst in a calorie deficit etc etc. But I just don't believe carb timing etc makes any difference whatsoever.

I'm not saying "it doesn't "work" and you won't get results timing your carbs however you want, but IMO your results will be down to your overall intake being correct rather than due to any sort of timing. Just my opinion.


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## 2004mark (Oct 26, 2013)

simonthepieman said:


> You are jumping to conclusions here. I just outlined a rough template
> 
> I track every macro and calorie I eat when cutting and ensure I hit a macro goal for P and F everyday. However I eat different things every day and at different times if i am hungry. If the *missus cooks me a smaller meal*. I'll make it up elsewhere. Sometimes I will eat less on certain days, sometimes more. But looking to have a net 5K deficit by Friday PM


My gf cooked me quiche, salad and a jacket pot last week... I hit the roof, chargrilled 300g of chicken and decided I'd eat it on a sandwich and leave the dinner to prove a point. Then realised I was being an idiot, said sorry and ate the lot. Just sayin :lol:


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## Fatstuff (Mar 2, 2010)

2004mark said:


> My gf cooked me quiche, salad and a jacket pot last week... I hit the roof, chargrilled 300g of chicken and decided I'd eat it on a sandwich and leave the dinner to prove a point. Then realised I was being an idiot, said sorry and ate the lot. Just sayin :lol:


should of stuck by your guns lol. When i first got with my bird she used to a spag bol that used to slide around the plate it was that greasy lol, she used to put butter in the spaghetti and everything. Soon sorted that sh1t out


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## simonthepieman (Jun 11, 2012)

2004mark said:


> My gf cooked me quiche, salad and a jacket pot last week... I hit the roof, chargrilled 300g of chicken and decided I'd eat it on a sandwich and leave the dinner to prove a point. Then realised I was being an idiot, said sorry and ate the lot. Just sayin :lol:


My bird is a bro. lol

she was completely brainwashed about 6 small meals a day. lean clean foods. to fire the metabolism lol always looking for superfoods and all that stuff

However she squats and deadlifts though


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

simonthepieman said:


> You are jumping to conclusions here. I just outlined a rough template
> 
> I track every macro and calorie I eat when cutting and ensure I hit a macro goal for P and F everyday. However I eat different things every day and at different times if i am hungry. If the missus cooks me a smaller meal. I'll make it up elsewhere. Sometimes I will eat less on certain days, sometimes more. But looking to have a net 5K deficit by Friday PM


i am making no assumptions i am reading what you have written......



seany1 said:


> My opinion is based on my own experience, reading and discussion with people whose opinion I respect. I use the word think because I am not arrogant enough to claim what I'm saying is definitive fact, I prefer to let others make those claims
> 
> Please don't misconstrue what I'm saying, I am not saying that I don't think macro breakdown has any relevance because I believe there are quite a few studies that show higher protein diets are superior for preserving lean mass whilst in a calorie deficit etc etc. But I just don't believe carb timing etc makes any difference whatsoever.
> 
> I'm not saying "it doesn't "work" and you won't get results timing your carbs however you want, but IMO your results will be down to your overall intake being correct rather than due to any sort of timing. Just my opinion.


i do never claim my theories are Fact i merly pointed out the way the body does work and that is fact it is not based on my opinion this is how it works.......

so by the above posts you have tried carb timing of any type? i merly point this out to highlight why you feel you can dismiss a theory when you have not used it yourself?? but this is your opinion and that is cool but an opinion has to be based on something other than other peoples opinions.....case in point that for many years it was seen as FACT that multiple meals create a magical fat burning state over say 3-4 meals through the day and this is not the case and many many studies have proven this when we are talking about fat loss in general although multiple meals do have a more positive effect on placing the body in a more anabolic state plus digestion etc but for weight loss 6-7 meals i no more a benefit than 3-4....

if you have used carb timing be this carb cycling, back loading, or CKD and found it of no benefit then i apologies but from your posts i get that you are dismissing a method without actually trying it yourself....if this is true then your opinion is not valid as it is based on other peoples opinions which in turn for you will be flawed...


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

2004mark said:


> My gf cooked me quiche, salad and a jacket pot last week... I hit the roof, chargrilled 300g of chicken and decided I'd eat it on a sandwich and leave the dinner to prove a point. Then realised I was being an idiot, said sorry and ate the lot. Just sayin :lol:


when i am not at the gym on an evening i eat with the family and for those two meals i eat what the wife cooks (she cooks from scratch) i do this because family time is far more important to me that eating alone....(this is different when i am prepping)


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## simonthepieman (Jun 11, 2012)

Pscarb said:


> i am making no assumptions i am reading what you have written......
> 
> .


yeah, you did! You said i didn't have knowledge of what I was actually eating.

Not just with my posts, but you seem to have a 'that doesn't fit my argument filter'


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## 2004mark (Oct 26, 2013)

Pscarb said:


> when i am not at the gym on an evening i eat with the family and for those two meals i eat what the wife cooks (she cooks from scratch) i do this because family time is far more important to me that eating alone....(this is different when i am prepping)


I'm totally the same, generally she's great and makes sure I get 250g of meet in my meal... just let herself down on this one occasion... she even said before I put my gym bag down "you're not going to like this" lol

tbh I'd have been fine if there was at least some ham with the salad


----------



## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

simonthepieman said:


> yeah, you did! You said i didn't have knowledge of what I was actually eating.
> 
> Not just with my posts, but you seem to have a 'that doesn't fit my argument filter'


what??your post clearly said that you had a snack if you wanted and that your wife cooked your meals etc hence my post.....

its not about it does not fit my argument because i am not arguing with you or anyone else if you do not buy what i am saying then that is cool but the discussion is inline with what the thread is about......


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## biglbs (Jan 26, 2012)

For two/three days per week I like to eat nothing but the least amount of protein,with the odd bit of fat,the rest of the week keep fats high and carbs low with higher protein,this is extreme but is the only thing to have shed my fat,,,,,60lbs of it so far


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## andyfrance001 (Jan 11, 2011)

Pscarb said:


> have you replaced the calories with Pro or Fat calories?


Yes, meal 6 is fish/chicken with small veg around 6pm, meal 7 is around 830 and thats scrambeld egg with two yolks, around 10pm is protein shake no carbs, good teaspoon of peanut butter.


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## seany1 (Apr 27, 2013)

Pscarb said:


> i am making no assumptions i am reading what you have written......
> 
> i do never claim my theories are Fact i merly pointed out the way the body does work and that is fact it is not based on my opinion this is how it works.......
> 
> ...


I said FROM MY EXPERIENCE, so quite how you assume the bolded part I'm not sure?. I have tried several methods, only eating carbs around workouts, fasting for a couple hours upon waking to extend the so called "fat burning state" along with carb cycling and a few others. I personally notice no benefit from any different method of timing, when macro consumption is the same I find no difference in results however I split/time intake, and most of those whose opinions I trust believe the same, and I have yet to read anything scientific that alters my thoughts.

I am not dismissing your or any theory, if you believe it "works" then that's all that matters TBH, whether the results come partly due to your "timing" methods or just because overall macros are correct is not really important IMO. People have all sorts of superstitions and rituals it's not for me to "dismiss" them.


----------



## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

seany1 said:


> I said FROM MY EXPERIENCE, so quite how you assume the bolded part I'm not sure?. I have tried several methods, only eating carbs around workouts, fasting for a couple hours upon waking to extend the so called "fat burning state" along with carb cycling and a few others. I personally notice no benefit from any different method of timing, when macro consumption is the same I find no difference in results however I split/time intake, and most of those whose opinions I trust believe the same, and I have yet to read anything scientific that alters my thoughts.
> 
> I am not dismissing your or any theory, if you believe it "works" then that's all that matters TBH, whether the results come partly due to your "timing" methods or just because overall macros are correct is not really important IMO. People have all sorts of superstitions and rituals it's not for me to "dismiss" them.


the problem with text is that the true sentiments do not come through, but the text before the part you made bold stands and that is if you have used it and found no difference then i apologies for my assumptions....

i have been in this game a long time and developed a world class physique but i am not beyond being wrong and i do not assume what i do or prescribe to is the only way things should be done, i have tried all methods when it comes to Carbs and found a difference so i stand by my methods you have found no difference so as long as you have progressed you are not wrong in your approach


----------



## seany1 (Apr 27, 2013)

Pscarb said:


> the problem with text is that the true sentiments do not come through, but the text before the part you made bold stands and that is if you have used it and found no difference then i apologies for my assumptions....
> 
> i have been in this game a long time and developed a world class physique but i am not beyond being wrong and i do not assume what i do or prescribe to is the only way things should be done, i have tried all methods when it comes to Carbs and found a difference so i stand by my methods you have found no difference so as long as you have progressed you are not wrong in your approach


I agree with all of the above, only thing I would say , and this is meant as no slight against you as I'm sure you have done an excellent job with your physique. But " world class" is a very high accolade to bestow upon one's self. Most professional boxers or footballers would not even qualify as being "world class" only a handful of the very elite would qualify for such a status , so I don't think it's any different in BBing. I think only the top pros could be described as world class, let alone those that didn't make it to professional. But again just my opinion.


----------



## Mingster (Mar 25, 2011)

seany1 said:


> I agree with all of the above, only thing I would say , and this is meant as no slight against you as I'm sure you have done an excellent job with your physique. But " world class" is a very high accolade to bestow upon one's self. Most professional boxers or footballers would not even qualify as being "world class" only a handful of the very elite would qualify for such a status , so I don't think it's any different in BBing. I think only the top pros could be described as world class, let alone those that didn't make it to professional. But again just my opinion.


Stick an avi up Seany mate. Pscarb got a 6th place in the last universe. It would be good to see where you are at in comparison...


----------



## saxondale (Nov 11, 2012)

Mingster said:


> last universe.


whats that then?


----------



## Jason88 (Mar 24, 2013)

Pscarb said:


> the problem with text is that the true sentiments do not come through, but the text before the part you made bold stands and that is if you have used it and found no difference then i apologies for my assumptions....
> 
> *i have been in this game a long time and developed a world class physique *but i am not beyond being wrong and i do not assume what i do or prescribe to is the only way things should be done, i have tried all methods when it comes to Carbs and found a difference so i stand by my methods you have found no difference so as long as you have progressed you are not wrong in your approach


Cant really argue with the truth, really intresting posts in this thread, for years ive stayed away from carbs at night, after reading this I think ill consider a new approach, seeing as I usally crave carbs at night anyways


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## seany1 (Apr 27, 2013)

Mingster said:


> Stick an avi up Seany mate. Pscarb got a 6th place in the last universe. It would be good to see where you are at in comparison...


Why do I need to stick a picture up to give an opinion?

I am a BB enthusiast and fan, I am also a football fan, I also don't think Vinny Jones was a world class footballer, do I need to stick up a video of me playing football to pass this opinion?


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## Mingster (Mar 25, 2011)

saxondale said:


> whats that then?


Mr Universe.



seany1 said:


> Why do I need to stick a picture up to give an opinion?
> 
> I am a BB enthusiast and fan, I am also a football fan, I also don't think Vinny Jones was a world class footballer, do I need to stick up a video of me playing football to pass this opinion?


Because it's a results game mate. No provenance = no credibility really. You say that this method works for you. Show us the results. Simple really...


----------



## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

seany1 said:


> I agree with all of the above, only thing I would say , and this is meant as no slight against you as I'm sure you have done an excellent job with your physique. But " world class" is a very high accolade to bestow upon one's self. Most professional boxers or footballers would not even qualify as being "world class" only a handful of the very elite would qualify for such a status , so I don't think it's any different in BBing. I think only the top pros could be described as world class, let alone those that didn't make it to professional. But again just my opinion.


when you place 6th in the world then i would count you as world class, if i thought i was Pro level i would be an idiot as i am not a Pro but i have competed at the very top of my federation and placed well........now i do not brag about myself but i do put my picture up as proof not only do i have some knowledge but i know how to apply it, i tend not to listen to those that cannot even bring themselves to put a picture of themselves in there Avi to show what they do works for at least themselves but hey thats just my opinion.


----------



## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

seany1 said:


> Why do I need to stick a picture up to give an opinion?
> 
> I am a BB enthusiast and fan, I am also a football fan, I also don't think Vinny Jones was a world class footballer, do I need to stick up a video of me playing football to pass this opinion?


no you dont but your tone to my post where i appreciate your comments to them try to dismiss me and my achievements has me interested in who i am debating with......


----------



## seany1 (Apr 27, 2013)

Mingster said:


> Mr Universe.
> 
> Because it's a results game mate. No providence = no credibility really. You say that this method works for you. Show us the results. Simple really...


Can't say I'm really bothered about internet "credibility" really , just passing my opinion and the time of day TBH. If you believe/have found that carb timing is of benefit then keep doing it. I'm not interested in a who can p i ss higher contest.


----------



## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

seany1 said:


> Can't say I'm really bothered about internet "credibility" really , just passing my opinion and the time of day TBH. If you believe/have found that carb timing is of benefit then keep doing it. I'm not interested in a who can p i ss higher contest.


so that will be a no on the picture then??


----------



## seany1 (Apr 27, 2013)

Pscarb said:


> no you dont but your tone to my post where i appreciate your comments to them try to dismiss me and my achievements has me interested in who i am debating with......


What tone? and I have not in any way "dismissed" your achievements .Just stating that I don't think "world class" describes those but the very elite, I think these sort of accolades are thrown about far too willy nilly these days, but again just my opinion.

Not meant as any slight against your achievements.


----------



## seany1 (Apr 27, 2013)

Pscarb said:


> so that will be a no on the picture then??


I may put one up at some stage if I feel like it, but I have made no claims of how 'great' I am so have nothing to prove.


----------



## L11 (Jan 21, 2011)

Tbh i look pretty good, but i wouldn't dismiss someone's opinion on the basis that i look better than them..


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## seany1 (Apr 27, 2013)

Pscarb said:


> *when you place 6th in the world then i would count you as world class*, if i thought i was Pro level i would be an idiot as i am not a Pro but i have competed at the very top of my federation and placed well........now i do not brag about myself but i do put my picture up as proof not only do i have some knowledge but i know how to apply it, i tend not to listen to those that cannot even bring themselves to put a picture of themselves in there Avi to show what they do works for at least themselves but hey thats just my opinion.


You placed 6th in an amateur federation , there is more than one amateur federation and then there is the professional ranks. So unless you placed 6th in the olympia(I'm sure I've had this discussion here already?) then you really did not place "6th in the world", there is a big difference between placing 6th in the NABBA worlds to being in the top 6 BBers in the world.

I would really like to stress again* I am not knocking your considerable achievements*, but you admit yourself you are not pro standard. So this simply comes to down to what you classify as being world class. As I said I think only the very top professionals of a sport are truly world class. You obviously have a different classification of what world class means. it's just a difference of opinion. Nothing to fall out about really.


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## Breda (May 2, 2011)

seany1 said:


> You placed 6th in an amateur federation , there is more than one amateur federation and then there is the professional ranks. So unless you placed 6th in the olympia(I'm sure I've had this discussion here already?) then you really did not place "6th in the world", there is a big difference between placing 6th in the NABBA worlds to being in the top 6 BBers in the world.
> 
> I would really like to stress again* I am not knocking your considerable achievements*, but you admit yourself you are not pro standard. So this simply comes to down to what you classify as being world class. As I said I think only the very top professionals of a sport are truly world class. You obviously have a different classification of what world class means. it's just a difference of opinion. Nothing to fall out about really.


And what qualifies you to determine what is and what isn't a world class physique? Apart from your opinion of course!


----------



## Mingster (Mar 25, 2011)

L11 said:


> Tbh i look pretty good, but i wouldn't dismiss someone's opinion on the basis that i look better than them..


Of course not. But faced with a choice between someone's unsupported opinion and the views of another who has had worldwide success, posted several detailed journals outlining his methods, and numerous training and instructional video's, I know who I would be putting my faith in...


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## Fatstuff (Mar 2, 2010)

Breda said:


> And what qualifies you to determine what is and what isn't a world class physique? Apart from your opinion of course!


...and what qualifies you to question seanys qualifications in the determination of world class physiques??? Hey??


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## Northern Lass (Aug 10, 2011)

I would just like to say a big thank you to @Pscarb for answering questions and sharing your valuable knowledge of the bodybuilding world.


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## L11 (Jan 21, 2011)

Mingster said:


> Of course not. But faced with a choice between someone's unsupported opinion and the views of another who has had worldwide success, posted several detailed journals outlining his methods, and numerous training and instructional video's, I know who I would be putting my faith in...


There's always the possibility that they're both right..


----------



## Breda (May 2, 2011)

Fatstuff said:


> ...and what qualifies you to question seanys qualifications in the determination of world class physiques??? Hey??


Shut up Stan


----------



## Milky (Nov 30, 2008)

Not used this for a while..........


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

firstly i do not dismiss anyone or there opinions based on how they look i do however look at how someone has formed there opinion and what they have based it on to be fair everyone has an opinion but would you listen to a 25stone obese fat block giving advice on dieting or an established athlete who has been there and walked the walk?

ok back to topic keep getting side tracked by internet trolls........  but of course this is only my opinion so i can give it........


----------



## saxondale (Nov 11, 2012)

Mikey81 said:


> How anyone can argue with a guy who's come 6th on a world stage is beyond me!! It's clear Paul knows what works and what doesn't for himself and has applied those methods with other people and helped them achieve their goals. Yes granted not everyone responds the same to differing strategies and an element of trial and error is involved. Failing to see how you can argue with a guy who's achieved what Paul has. You either accept his methods and opinions or you don't but I think this argument is fruitless. Why ask someone's opinion if your gonna dismiss it!?!


works both ways, it`s the way you make your point that carries the weight.

me? I`ll take my advice from the guy who came 1st.


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## nick-h (Nov 17, 2011)

To try and get back on topic, you advocate carb timing and if I'm understanding correctly it's the choice of carbs as well such as white bread pwo fast release carbs. When is then best to have the slow release carbs I'm guessing you wouldn't want the high gi carbs before bed


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## saxondale (Nov 11, 2012)

Mikey81 said:


> Got a feeling his methods might not suit you either


think you`ve got the wrong person mate.


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

nick-h said:


> To try and get back on topic, you advocate carb timing and if I'm understanding correctly it's the choice of carbs as well such as white bread pwo fast release carbs. When is then best to have the slow release carbs I'm guessing *you wouldn't want the high gi carbs before bed*


why do you think this?


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## Fatstuff (Mar 2, 2010)

Pscarb said:


> why do you think this?


Probably because of typical bodybuilding myths and misinformation perpetuated in gyms and forums everywhere for years lol


----------



## Northern Lass (Aug 10, 2011)

Fatstuff said:


> Probably because of typical bodybuilding myths and misinformation perpetuated in gyms and forums everywhere for years lol


Just like meal frequency x


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## Talaria (Jun 30, 2011)

How is this still going on, I thought @Pscarb cleared this up yesterday?


----------



## PaulB (Jun 6, 2010)

YummyMummy said:


> I would just like to say a big thank you to @Pscarb for answering questions and sharing your valuable knowledge of the bodybuilding world.


X2. Turned out to be a good thread this. I always enjoy them when pscarb, tinytom, DTLV and other knowledgable people get involved. Nobrownnosing lol


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## luther1 (Jul 31, 2011)

goldenballs23 said:


> How is this still going on, I thought @Pscarb cleared this up yesterday?


You can lead a horse to water my friend..........


----------



## Talaria (Jun 30, 2011)

luther1 said:


> You can lead a horse to water my friend..........


But you can't make it dance.


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

Fatstuff said:


> Probably because of typical bodybuilding myths and misinformation perpetuated in gyms and forums everywhere for years lol


so true and so many repeat and do the same thing yet fail to progress....


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## nick-h (Nov 17, 2011)

Simply assumed it would not be needed before sleep, why would it be? Or does it not a make difference what the carb is


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## simonthepieman (Jun 11, 2012)

nick-h said:


> Simply assumed it would not be needed before sleep, why would it be? Or does it not a make difference what the carb is


If something is needed at the given point due to factors and variables that occurred that occurred before. It's needed. Time is irrelevant.

If you were bleeding. You wouldn't go to bed and expect it to stop. Would you


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## tikkajohn (Dec 6, 2012)

One thing I find is if I have carbs before bed I sleep great


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## simonthepieman (Jun 11, 2012)

tikkajohn said:


> One thing I find is if I have carbs before bed I sleep great


Me too.

I also think its better than food pre workout when training AM


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## tikkajohn (Dec 6, 2012)

simonthepieman said:


> Me too.
> 
> I also think its better than food pre workout when training AM


I have never trained in the early AM but IM also finding that a carb heavy meal 2hrs before training is not suiting me well.

I respect and understand what Pscarb is saying about the increased fat burning in the morning, however if calories are consistent I.e 2500 in both cases eating when awoke and not for 2hrs I fail to understand when intake is equal how one would loose more fat than the other.


----------



## simonthepieman (Jun 11, 2012)

tikkajohn said:


> I have never trained in the early AM but IM also finding that a carb heavy meal 2hrs before training is not suiting me well.
> 
> I respect and understand what Pscarb is saying about the increased fat burning in the morning, however if calories are consistent I.e 2500 in both cases eating when awoke and not for 2hrs I fail to understand when intake is equal how one would loose more fat than the other.


I'm in the same boat.

I ironically do what he prescribes, but i've learn't it works best for me on AM training and hunger management. The part of my diet I think has biggest effect on 'fat burning' is lots low cal, low carb days and a massive high carb day.


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

tikkajohn said:


> I have never trained in the early AM but IM also finding that a carb heavy meal 2hrs before training is not suiting me well.
> 
> I respect and understand what Pscarb is saying about the increased fat burning in the morning, however if calories are consistent I.e 2500 in both cases eating when awoke and not for 2hrs I fail to understand when intake is equal how one would loose more fat than the other.


If everything is equal for person A and B same meal timings, same calorie amounts, same macro splits yet both person A and B wake up in a fat burning state at 7.00 am....

yet person A decides to eat carbs at 7.05 am thus releases insulin and when insulin is released the fat burning state person A has woken up in is stopped at 7.05 am so not taken advantage of anymore than 5 min of that natural fat burning state....

Yet person B wakes at 7.00 am and decides to have a black coffee (caffiene is a fat burner) instead of a meal and waits 2hrs to eat, the fat burning state he has woken up in is extended for 2 hours longer than person A so in doing so extends the fat burning processor an extra 2hrs.........

Person B will burn more fat than person A due to this even when all else is equal as he has given himself an extra 2hrs more of the fat burning state both person A and person B wake up in...........it is a natural effect your body does all you are doing by not eating (releasing insulin) is extending it......

Hopefully that is understandable?


----------



## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

seany1 said:


> Why do I need to stick a picture up to give an opinion?
> 
> I am a BB enthusiast and fan, I am also a football fan, I also don't think Vinny Jones was a world class footballer, do I need to stick up a video of me playing football to pass this opinion?


I have now found out why this member was so argumentative and would not post a picture because he is a banned member I have banned before, he does this from time to time as he has no life and you can imagine why he does not put a picture up, he is now banned but I am sure he will be back once again for further entertainment...

Anyway back to the thread


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## saxondale (Nov 11, 2012)

Pscarb said:


> If everything is equal for person A and B same meal timings, same calorie amounts, same macro splits yet both person A and B wake up in a fat burning state at 7.00 am....
> 
> yet person A decides to eat carbs at 7.05 am thus releases insulin and when insulin is released the fat burning state person A has woken up in is stopped at 7.05 am so not taken advantage of anymore than 5 min of that natural fat burning state....
> 
> ...


what real world effect does the 2hr window actually have? genuine question mate - is it equal to say 10 press ups or a mile run?


----------



## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

saxondale said:


> what real world effect does the 2hr window actually have? genuine question mate - is it equal to say 10 press ups or a mile run?


I have no idea is the honest answer but if fat loss is your goal then everything helps, I did this through all of last years prep and I could tell it helped I now do it as habit, everyone wants a number to put to everything but there is an advantage over not doing it.......

Guys this is like everything it is a tool to assist a person in there goal I am sure if the same effect would be in a capsule or injection it would be taken without question


----------



## saxondale (Nov 11, 2012)

Pscarb said:


> I have no idea is the honest answer but if fat loss is your goal then everything helps, I did this through all of last years prep and I could tell it helped I now do it as habit, everyone wants a number to put to everything but there is an advantage over not doing it.......
> 
> Guys this is like everything it is a tool to assist a person in there goal I am sure if the same effect would be in a capsule or injection it would be taken without question


bear with me mate, I`m full of stupid questions, would milk in a cup of tea kill the effect?


----------



## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

saxondale said:


> bear with me mate, I`m full of stupid questions, would milk in a cup of tea kill the effect?


Yes mate as milk contains lactose and this will release insulin, I use either a black coffee or herbal tea


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## Heath (Mar 3, 2011)

Pscarb said:


> Yes mate as milk contains lactose and this will release insulin, I use either a black coffee or herbal tea


I train in the morning on just BCAA's and creatine drink would this release enough insulin to stop the effect?


----------



## L11 (Jan 21, 2011)

Pscarb said:


> Yes mate as milk contains lactose and this will release insulin, I use either a black coffee or herbal tea


How about fibrous carbs? I like a fat and protein meal for breakfast but it looks so small on my plate without some spinach or broccoli!


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

MutantX said:


> I train in the morning on just BCAA's and creatine drink would this release enough insulin to stop the effect?


BCAA's can release insulin even to a small degree



L11 said:


> How about fibrous carbs? I like a fat and protein meal for breakfast but it looks so small on my plate without some spinach or broccoli!


even some protein releases some insulin...

guys there are many different ways to do things this will not fit in with what everyone does it all depends on how you want to take advantage of the fat burning state you are naturally in when you wake, i did not see the point when i first started doing this but after a while and reading up on how the body works hormonally i could understand the concept and i saw the results for me it was worth it, now it is habit and again it fits my schedule.

i wake at 7.00-7.30 am each morning but due to school run when at home or prepping for work when in hotels it is a good 2hrs (9.00-9.30) before i am ready to have my first meal, i do feel better for it as it seems to make me more alert for the day, it can be adapted for someone who trains in the morning as you do not need carbs before you train as these will not be processed to give you energy to train anyway....there is an old saying that the energy we have today was the food we eat yesterday.......so for early morning trainers a good carb meal the night before (yes i know voodoo big no no) will give you the energy for the session the day after, studies have been done where strength has not been effected when doing this as long as a good 24hr nutrition plan is followed......

again guys this is all ways to enhance what you are doing if you feel it is to much detail to bother with don't do it but it does work, i do not write about things i have not tried myself......


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## Nano (Jun 10, 2013)

I just ate a gladiator meal from KFC at 1340 cal, does this count ?


----------



## simonthepieman (Jun 11, 2012)

Pscarb said:


> Guys this is like everything it is a tool to assist a person in there goal I am sure if the same effect would be in a capsule or injection it would be taken without question


That paragraph is golden


----------



## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

Nano said:


> I just ate a gladiator meal from KFC at 1340 cal, does this count ?


count towards what you being a gladiator?????


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## Englishman (Oct 4, 2012)

Very good thread, if anyone is interested Pscarb wrote a fantastic article on Timed carbs which would compliment this discussion.

http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/losing-weight/13379-timed-carbs.html


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## Nano (Jun 10, 2013)

Pscarb said:


> count towards what you being a gladiator?????


That is the long term aim, but I was more referring to eating carbs before bed being bad


----------



## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

Nano said:


> That is the long term aim, but I was more referring to eating carbs before bed being bad


well the carbs in the meal would not have been bad the amount of trans fats would of been


----------



## Greg89 (Apr 19, 2010)

Pscarb said:


> well the carbs in the meal would not have been bad the amount of trans fats would of been


Do you try and keep fats close to 0 postworkout?

My take from the book was as close to 0 carbs as possible preworkout, as close to 0 fats as possible post?

Thats what i do but a few i train with take the approach of 0 carbs preworkout, then anything goes postworkout as long as its within their calorie allowance?


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## Fatstuff (Mar 2, 2010)

Pscarb said:


> well the carbs in the meal would not have been bad the amount of trans fats would of been


Woah woah woah!!! I rarely try and correct you mr scarb but I'm stepping in now, not letting u slate the colonel!!! :lol:

KFC have minimised considerably the amount of trans fat In Their food!! In fact they use rapeseed oil which is a very decent oil and stable at high temperatures!!!

I got your back sanders...


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## Englishman (Oct 4, 2012)

I try for 0 fats after training but in reality it comes to about 6.

Doing nearly 400g carbs after training from 9pm to 1am, most being fast carbs like Frosted Flakes!

Timed carbs and Tren A have totally changed my body in the last 4 months.


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

Greg89 said:


> Do you try and keep fats close to 0 postworkout?
> 
> My take from the book was as close to 0 carbs as possible preworkout, as close to 0 fats as possible post?
> 
> Thats what i do but a few i train with take the approach of 0 carbs preworkout, then anything goes postworkout as long as its within their calorie allowance?


i don't add fats to my meals but i dont go for zero fats as that would be virtually impossible



Fatstuff said:


> Woah woah woah!!! I rarely try and correct you mr scarb but I'm stepping in now, not letting u slate the colonel!!! :lol:
> 
> KFC have minimised considerably the amount of trans fat In Their food!! In fact they use rapeseed oil which is a very decent oil and stable at high temperatures!!!
> 
> I got your back sanders...


yea and what you get when you buy his stuff looks just like the pictures on the menu


----------



## Guest (Jul 5, 2013)

@Pscarb - just wonder what the thought process is when you workout the carbs you or a client would require? is activity level a major factor? eg office job vs manual job. Current body composition?

Or is it just as simple as working out the fat/protein requirements and then filling the calorie gap with carbs?


----------



## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

SlimFat said:


> @Pscarb - just wonder what the thought process is when you workout the carbs you or a client would require? is activity level a major factor? eg office job vs manual job. Current body composition?
> 
> Or is it just as simple as working out the fat/protein requirements and then filling the calorie gap with carbs?


  it is taking into consideration the following things....

Body mass

Muscle mass

BF level

Activity

Training schedule

Cardio

Assisted or Natural

and even then the initial plan is a like a flag in the ground this is manipulated over the following 1-4 weeks as we see how they respond to the plan


----------



## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

Pscarb said:


> it is taking into consideration the following things....
> 
> Body mass
> 
> ...


Some fellow mod butt-kissing coming here, but this is exactly why you make a good PT - all the PT's, prep guys, dieticians and nutritionists I rate have this kind of approach, they start with a basic template but adjust it over time based upon individual factors and responses as things go on.

A lot of people seem to forget that the body will change as a diet takes effect so therefore the diet often needs to constantly change too - instead many pick a particular diet template, and that might work really well initially, but after a month or two it seems to be less effective and they either don't understand why and panic or go into denial about it and keep going regardless... truth is though a diet that is causing change (for greater mass/loss of fat/better health markers or whatever) in the body will always need to evolve as those changes happen.

When it comes to carbs and sensitivity to them, it's definitely my belief that you do a lot to improve your non genetic sensitivity to them and insulin by gradual dietary measures and changes in activity, and that's a part of what good bodybuilding diet plans do whether people realise it or not.


----------



## Heath (Mar 3, 2011)

dtlv said:


> When it comes to carbs and sensitivity to them, it's definitely my belief that you do a lot to improve your non genetic sensitivity to them and insulin by gradual dietary measures and changes in activity, and that's a part of what good bodybuilding diet plans do whether people realise it or not.


I'm really interested in this part, would you say that weights + cardio + low gi carb diet help with insulin sensitivity?

Also does supplementing omega 3 and ALA help?


----------



## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

MutantX said:


> I'm really interested in this part, would you say that weights + cardio + low gi carb diet help with insulin sensitivity?
> 
> *Also does supplementing omega 3 and ALA help?*


yes they do as does Leucine


----------



## Heath (Mar 3, 2011)

Pscarb said:


> yes they do as does Leucine


To a degree that's actually noticeable/beneficial?

I only ask because so many supps are now marketed but the benefits are marginal


----------



## Pictor (Jan 10, 2011)

MutantX said:


> I'm really interested in this part, would you say that weights + cardio + low gi carb diet help with insulin sensitivity?
> 
> Also does supplementing omega 3 and ALA help?





Pscarb said:


> yes they do as does Leucine


What sort of daily dose we taking to help insulin sensitivity


----------



## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

MutantX said:


> I'm really interested in this part, would you say that weights + cardio + low gi carb diet help with insulin sensitivity?
> 
> Also does supplementing omega 3 and ALA help?


Yes, activity helps a lot, as does having a focused approach to when carbs are consumed. IF, CLB, TKD, CKD, carbs around activity and carb cycling diets (the latter two being the best two for most people IMO) all 'window' carbs between low carb phases in various ways, and this can help with nutrient partitioning - shuttling carbs to glycogen stores rather than to fat synthesis and fat stores. Low GI is definitely the way to go on a med-high carb diet where carbs are consumed during fairly sedentary phases.

For specific nutrients, many people don't realise the differential effects of fructose and glucose. Fructose does not in any significant degree get stored as subcutaneous fat - rather it fills liver glycogen stores and then any excess fills visceral fat stores, and these visceral fat stores when excessive begin to impair insulin sensitivity. Fructose does not elevate insulin itself though so doesn't actually block fat burning that much.

Glucose on the other hand does not significantly fill visceral fat stores at all but primarily fills muscle glycogen stores, and the excess fills subcutaneous fat cells. It also pumps out insulin and limits fat burning, but doesn't actually affect insulin sensitivity much. Galactose (the simple sugar in dairy/lactose) behaves pretty similarly to glucose in this respect.

When you put fructose and glucose together though and consume a large enough dose repeatedly, you can see that you create an environment where you fill all your glycogen stores, impair your insulin sensitivity, block fat burning AND promote fat storage. A little bit of sugar is fine, and not a problem at all so long as glycogen stores are low, but once those stores fill up the glucose/fructose combo is a big pain for trying to stay lean - so low GI, other than around or after times of activity when glycogen is being burned up, makes a lot of sense because it doesn't promote these issues.

For ALA, especially the R type, is awesome stuff for promoting insulin sensitivity - one of the best supp's out there and I thoroughly recommend it on a low body fat cut. Omega 3's too do also indeed help a lot as omega 3/6 ratio controls inflammation which regulates how well insulin receptors work, especially in the beta cells of the pancreas that secrete insulin. The third super nutrient is magnesium, which a lack of always creates insulin insensitivity. Things that crush insulin sensitivity appear to be chronic lack of sleep, and smoking tobacco. A high regular alcohol intake is pretty nasty here too, as is a high intake of saturated and trans fats (although by its nature a high saturated fat diet is usually at the same time low carb, so people don't often see this - except if they suddenly start eating carbs again and the fat piles on. Then in error they usually blame the carbs, not realising that the previous high sat fat diet has primed them to be resistant to insulin).

Basically good omega 3/6 ratios, hi GI only around activity or in very controlled windows between low carb phases, low GI for carbs at other times, decent magnesium intake (active people will almost certainly need a decent supp due to much mag is lost through sweat - smokers will need even more), and then get good sleep, sensible intake of other fats, and some ALA to top things off - and give it a little time. These things when put together can go so far as to help even to reverse type 2 diabetes when combined with sensible calorie intake, and also help a lot with cutting to a sub average body fat condition.


----------



## Heath (Mar 3, 2011)

dtlv said:


> Goldmine of info


I heard about omega 3 and ALA plus limiting starchy carbs to 3 meals a day in an article by Dr Berardi but I think your post topped that.

Can insulin sensitivity be improved even when bulking?


----------



## Milky (Nov 30, 2008)

Pscarb said:


> yes they do as does Leucine


But it tastes like sh*t !!


----------



## 36-26 (Jun 30, 2009)

L11 said:


> That's the other thing I was thinking, when you're cutting, is insulin spiking relevant? If you're in a deficit surely you're body wont store fat regardless?


Your dead right it won't store fat and if it did it would burn it off again over the course of the day


----------



## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

MutantX said:


> I heard about omega 3 and ALA plus limiting starchy carbs to 3 meals a day in an article by Dr Berardi but I think your post topped that.
> 
> *Can insulin sensitivity be improved even when bulking?*


it can if you structure your diet to include a lower amount of carbs on a non training day this helps with Insulin Sensitivity a lot


----------



## BM1991 (Jul 2, 2013)

I tend to just eat mine throughout the day when I need energy. Nice tub of cottage cheese before bed suits me fine.

Not sure whether I do it purposefully though, just seems more convenient!


----------



## Bull Terrier (May 14, 2012)

MutantX said:


> I heard about omega 3 and ALA plus limiting starchy carbs to 3 meals a day in an article by Dr Berardi but I think your post topped that.
> 
> Can insulin sensitivity be improved even when bulking?


I started a thread a while back on insulin sensitivity testing if anybody is interested:

http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/food-diet-nutrition-info/229228-insulin-sensitivity-testing.html

I used to think that I was insulin resistant, but as you'll read above this isn't the case, or perhaps is no longer the case. For the record I carefully implemented just about everything which @dtlv recommends for improving insulin sensitivity so it is entirely possible that mine improved. It is indeed a shame that I didn't have the test done whilst on old diet/training regime so as to compare the difference..


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## Guest (Jul 11, 2013)

How much mag should you supp to help insulin sensitivity?

And if you did a 16:8 fast would you still need to time or cycle carbs?


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

SlimFat said:


> How much mag should you supp to help insulin sensitivity?
> 
> And if you did a 16:8 fast would you still need to time or cycle carbs?


For magnesium you want to aim for a daily intake of 400-500mg elemental magnesium most days from a combo of diet and supp's - higher if you smoke or if are very active all the time and do other sports/training as well as weight training.

Good magnesium supp's are magnesium gluconate, magnesium citrate, magnesium biglycinate, magnesium orotate, and magnesium taurate. Don't bother with magnesium oxide or oxalate.

Foods high in magnesium are nuts and seeds (esp, brazil nuts, cashews, almonds, sesame seeds, pumpkin seeds), most green leafy salad type veg (esp, kale and chard), fish (esp, mackerel, pollock, tuna), most grains (esp, brown rice, quinoa, buckwheat), avocados, and cocoa nibs/dark chocolate are super high in magnesium. Get a variety of these foods in regularly.

Other foods that help insulin sensitivity generally are chilli's and hot peppers, cinnamon, turmeric and black pepper - these all have phytonutrients which appear to reduce insulin sensitivity to some degree.

As for the 16:8 and carb cycling question, no need to do anything to cycle carbs if eating to a kind of IF window - the purpose of the fast is to low glycogen stores and to keep insulin low for a while to aid lipolysis, and the purpose of the feed is partly to replenish those glycogen stores as part of general fuelling up... no value to cycling carbs with IF because you should need the same amount each day, and no purpose to go low carb on IF either because that just defeats the point of the fast.


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## weightgainer (Mar 12, 2009)

Greg89 said:


> I've always been carb sensitive and struggled with keeping the fat off when bulking when carbs are involved....Ive only ever been able to get decent results on a cut using keto and that has left me with low strength and looking flat..
> 
> Carb backloading is 100% for me the best diet approach i've ever used. Ive kept relatively lean bulking and lost a lot of fat whilst gaining strength on a cut.
> 
> ...


How come you have cream with your AM coffee - thought you weren't meant to eat anything for 2-3 hours?


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