# "Ditch the Fancy Diets, Just Cut Down on Fat"



## rectus (Jan 18, 2012)

Sorry for posting the Daily Mail, but it does lead me to a question.



> New research from the University of East Anglia (UEA) found that exchanging fatty foods for lower fat alternatives results in weight loss, slimmer waistlines and a drop in levels of bad cholesterol.The results prove for the first time that weight loss is possible simply by choosing foods lower in fat despite a plethora of recent publicity extolling the benefits of low-carbohydrate and no-carb diets.


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2244299/Ditch-fancy-diets-just-cut-fat-Eating-healthily-reliable-way-lose-weight.html










I believe is this the study they are referring to: http://www.bmj.com/content/345/bmj.e7666



> *Conclusions* There is high quality, consistent evidence that reduction of total fat intake has been achieved in large numbers of both healthy and at risk trial participants over many years. Lower total fat intake leads to small but statistically significant and clinically meaningful, sustained reductions in body weight in adults in studies with baseline fat intakes of 28-43% of energy intake and durations from six months to over eight years. Evidence supports a similar effect in children and young people.


I want to know if people here still restrict fat when cutting, or drop down macro's uniformly?


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## Huntingground (Jan 10, 2010)

I go keto so high fats/protein and no carbs.


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## Dux (Nov 29, 2011)

Whilst the "fat is bad" advice is as most of us know wrong, how does it explain the "American shape" that more and more people are transforming their bodies into nowadays, with ****s that have a ledge big enough to balance a pint on?

That's clearly due to the excessively high fat diets they have.

We know all fats aren't created equally, but the average dumb ass on the street doesn't know that.

Maybe it's better to just tell them fats are bad because its quite easy to understand, and simply hope they stay in calorie deficit.


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## Ballin (Aug 24, 2011)

As someone who dropped 7 stone in 9 months I just ate sensibly. That meant no cakes, crisps or sweets which are high in fats AND carbs. Meals consisted of protein with fruit and veg job done.

I read a book called why we get fat was a few quid off Amazon and a brilliant book to read. The whole thing about why they said fat was bad was because they invested so much money into the reserch they could not afford for it to be changed. They did a study on this Native American tribe who were ripped to shreds munching on meat and veg. The American settlers came and they were eating less calories but became super obese due to the carb rich diet they brought with them. Really interesting stuff.

Really don't get why people think there is a magical formula...just eat sensible and diet. If you avoid the crap you avoid the bad fats and the carbs.


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## Blinkey (May 14, 2012)

Ballin said:


> As someone who dropped 7 stone in 9 months I just ate sensibly. That meant no cakes, crisps or sweets which are high in fats AND carbs. Meals consisted of protein with fruit and veg job done.
> 
> I read a book called why we get fat was a few quid off Amazon and a brilliant book to read. The whole thing about why they said fat was bad was because they invested so much money into the reserch they could not afford for it to be changed. They did a study on this Native American tribe who were ripped to shreds munching on meat and veg. The American settlers came and they were eating less calories but became super obese due to the carb rich diet they brought with them. Really interesting stuff.
> 
> Really don't get why people think there is a magical formula...just eat sensible and diet. If you avoid the crap you avoid the bad fats and the carbs.


Sounds an interesting book, who wrote it?


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## mark_star (Jun 14, 2012)

Dux said:


> Whilst the "fat is bad" advice is as most of us know wrong, how does it explain the "American shape" that more and more people are transforming their bodies into nowadays, with ****s that have a ledge big enough to balance a pint on?
> 
> That's clearly due to the excessively high fat diets they have.
> 
> ...


is it just high fat diets or is it also highly processed carbs that are a part of the problem? I think saying that it is just fats is an over-simplification


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## rectus (Jan 18, 2012)

Ballin said:


> As someone who dropped 7 stone in 9 months I just ate sensibly. That meant no cakes, crisps or sweets which are high in fats AND carbs. Meals consisted of protein with fruit and veg job done.
> 
> I read a book called why we get fat was a few quid off Amazon and a brilliant book to read. The whole thing about why they said fat was bad was because they invested so much money into the reserch they could not afford for it to be changed. They did a study on this Native American tribe who were ripped to shreds munching on meat and veg. The American settlers came and they were eating less calories but became super obese due to the carb rich diet they brought with them. Really interesting stuff.
> 
> Really don't get why people think there is a magical formula...just eat sensible and diet. If you avoid the crap you avoid the bad fats and the carbs.


Yeah I've read it myself, mostly good info but he makes some big errors by leaving out vital evidence too so not to be taken as gospel. @The Vegetarian: Gary Taubes


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## rectus (Jan 18, 2012)

mark_star said:


> is it just high fat diets or is it also highly processed carbs that are a part of the problem? I think saying that it is just fats is an over-simplification


I agree, it's a mix of high calories and the types of foods those calories consist of. It'll be a high sugar, high fat diet, waaaay above maintenance calories.


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## Dux (Nov 29, 2011)

mark_star said:


> is it just high fat diets or is it also highly processed carbs that are a part of the problem? I think saying that it is just fats is an over-simplification


It's definitely carbs as well, but they're not gonna understand differences in carbs too!


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## cas (Jan 9, 2011)

Ballin said:


> As someone who dropped 7 stone in 9 months I just ate sensibly. That meant no cakes, crisps or sweets which are high in fats AND carbs. Meals consisted of protein with fruit and veg job done.
> 
> I read a book called why we get fat was a few quid off Amazon and a brilliant book to read. The whole thing about why they said fat was bad was because they invested so much money into the reserch they could not afford for it to be changed. They did a study on this Native American tribe who were ripped to shreds munching on meat and veg. The American settlers came and they were eating less calories but became super obese due to the carb rich diet they brought with them. Really interesting stuff.
> 
> Really don't get why people think there is a magical formula...just eat sensible and diet. If you avoid the crap you avoid the bad fats and the carbs.


I read about the tribe thing, it was a good read.


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## Blinkey (May 14, 2012)

I do wonder now we are in the 21st century that carbs will get the reputation that fat had in the late 20th century.


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## Beklet (May 13, 2005)

The Diet Delusion, by Gary Taubes - it's the longer version of 'Why We Get Fat' and is a hefty read but very enlightening - it's not gospel though - Ancel Keys was made out to be the cause of the low fat crap but apparently he wasn't - this is a good explanation (though very long) http://rawfoodsos.com/2011/12/22/the-truth-about-ancel-keys-weve-all-got-it-wrong/

Meanwhile...3 and a half pounds weight loss? That's just a really good dump...FFS 

Eating less and less fat means your weight keeps dropping? Riiiight.


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## Beklet (May 13, 2005)

The Vegetarian said:


> I do wonder now we are in the 21st century that carbs will get the reputation that fat had in the late 20th century.


They always used to. I remember when I was little that when my grandma was 'slimming', it would be the bread, potatoes and pastry that would go...


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## HodgesoN (Sep 9, 2012)

high protien, med/high carbs, low fats


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## Ballin (Aug 24, 2011)

The Vegetarian said:


> Sounds an interesting book, who wrote it?


http://www.amazon.co.uk/Why-We-Get-Fat-about/dp/0307949435/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1355166799&sr=8-1

Gary Taubes only a fiver very technical book mate enjoyed reading it.


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## Ballin (Aug 24, 2011)

The Vegetarian said:


> I do wonder now we are in the 21st century that carbs will get the reputation that fat had in the late 20th century.


I believe it will.

They did an experiment of pre WW2 diets with high fats such as lard and bacon etc. and people lost weight on this.

It's the hidden filth like modified corn starch and the lacing of sugar in low fat products that does it man. The other day I was flagging studying so got a can a Relentless....59 GRAMS OF SUGAR in a can...how do they even disolve it- must literally be at saturation point!!


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## Marshan (Aug 27, 2010)

GF did a Keto diet and came to the gym with me for a 26 day period up until Saturday night....she lost 17 lbs.


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## leeds_01 (Aug 6, 2008)

during the week im fuelled by fats, not carbs

when i cut i keep macros in line however only reduce fats + carbs -


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## Blinkey (May 14, 2012)

When I was in America I bought some milk. it was in a bottle like that we buy over here. But it has added sugar!

I had to go to a "health shop" to buy a pint of milk that was sugar free.


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## mark_star (Jun 14, 2012)

The Vegetarian said:


> When I was in America I bought some milk. it was in a bottle like that we buy over here. But it has added sugar!
> 
> I had to go to a "health shop" to buy a pint of milk that was sugar free.


wow that's scary, no doubt will be available over here soon


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## PHMG (Jun 15, 2010)

for once i agree with the daily mail!


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## bambi1550 (Dec 10, 2012)

Ballin said:


> As someone who dropped 7 stone in 9 months I just ate sensibly. That meant no cakes, crisps or sweets which are high in fats AND carbs. Meals consisted of protein with fruit and veg job done.


JESUS! That's alot of weight to be dropped, to say it took me 12 months to drop 2 stone makes me a little jealous!

I have looked at how I eat and I've hardly been helping myself.... carbs were my staple diet


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## Ballin (Aug 24, 2011)

bambi1550 said:


> JESUS! That's alot of weight to be dropped, to say it took me 12 months to drop 2 stone makes me a little jealous!
> 
> I have looked at how I eat and I've hardly been helping myself.... carbs were my staple diet


Well I was A FAT CNUT haha plenty to spare was like 23 stone! I am not saying all carbs are bad as they are really important it's the processed ****e carbs that mess up your insulin levels that does it.

In fact I am gonna dig out that book and give it another read- should help my new year cut.

That and watching The Rocky movies will get me going haha!


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## rectus (Jan 18, 2012)

Ballin said:


> http://www.amazon.co.uk/Why-We-Get-Fat-about/dp/0307949435/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1355166799&sr=8-1
> 
> Gary Taubes only a fiver very technical book mate enjoyed reading it.


That book is a detailed summary of his previous book Good Calories, Bad Calories. That is a lot more technical. He has some haters on here, and understandably so. They showed me that Gary isn't the god I thought he was.

@Beklet could you expand on Ancel not being the evil behind the lipid hypothesis? I've been hating on him for some time now and it wouldn't be fare if he wasn't to blame.


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## Beklet (May 13, 2005)

rectus said:


> That book is a detailed summary of his previous book Good Calories, Bad Calories. That is a lot more technical. He has some haters on here, and understandably so. They showed me that Gary isn't the god I thought he was.
> 
> @Beklet could you expand on Ancel not being the evil behind the lipid hypothesis? I've been hating on him for some time now and it wouldn't be fare if he wasn't to blame.


He isn't entirely to blame, no. Thought I posted the link in my last post?

This from the article, but it goes into much more depth.

The Truth:

Ancel Keys did not drop any countries from the Seven Countries Study. His most famous graph-the first one up above-is from a different paper he presented at a World Health Organization (WHO) conference in 1955. The Seven Countries Study didn't even launch until 1958, and entailed much more than just plopping numbers into a pretty curve. (That said, the Seven Countries Study had plenty of problems too; some are mentioned on this site.)

Contrary to popular belief, the cherry-picked graph didn't convince everyone that fat was evil. In fact, Keys was pretty much ridiculed for the weakness of his fat/heart disease theory by other scientists at the WHO meeting, and whenever his graph was cited in medical journals later on, it was usually paired with some criticism. Although Keys' work definitely shaped our current beliefs about fat, this graph didn't exactly take the world by storm. (More on this later.)

When all 22 countries were analyzed, the association between fat and heart disease did not go away. It actually remained statistically significant (meaning it probably wasn't due to chance). And to make matters worse, the paper frequently cited as a "rebuttal" to Keys shows pretty clearly that animal protein had an even stronger association with heart disease than total fat did. The China Study was right all along! Time to go vegan, you guys. (Just kidding. But this part is the most interesting of all, and we'll examine it in excruciating depth in a moment.)

Although some of his saga has been misconstrued, Keys was still far from perfect-and his eventual role in demonizing saturated fats (while glorifying polyunsaturated fats) has led us down an unfortunate road. My goal is neither to nudge Mr. Keys into sainthood nor to perpetuate his villain status-only to lay out the history and data as objectively as possible.

http://rawfoodsos.com/2011/12/22/the-truth-about-ancel-keys-weve-all-got-it-wrong/


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## rectus (Jan 18, 2012)

How have I never stumbled upon this before?!


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## Beklet (May 13, 2005)

Because I am a sad geek and like to read stuff - I also like to have people try to disprove it - been burned too often by bad nutrition advice, so I have to hunt down everything relating to it...

So what has Mr Taubes done that is so bad?


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## rectus (Jan 18, 2012)

Beklet said:


> Because I am a sad geek and like to read stuff - I also like to have people try to disprove it - been burned too often by bad nutrition advice, so I have to hunt down everything relating to it...
> 
> So what has Mr Taubes done that is so bad?


I'll have a read (may take me some time so see you back here in a month), but what makes this writer a reliable source? It's popular to 'disprove' science these days, it gets hits and sells books so I am always aware of potential ulterior motives. As for Taubes, he is apparently a cherry picker, named so by those more educated in this field than I. So information that disproves his theories have been left out of his books. Plus it's all a bit culty don't you think? I was sucked into the Paleo world at first, and that's the still the route I want to go down but I'm not a carb hater anymore as I train on 0 carbs and I am now weaker than a new born.


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## Blinkey (May 14, 2012)

Rectus do not have a zero carb diet just have carbs that nature intended, like fruit and veg. Pasta, rice and spuds are not what we are designed to eat.

Pasta is artificial, rice and spuds cannot be eaten raw. So our bodies cannot cope with them.


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## rectus (Jan 18, 2012)

The Vegetarian said:


> Rectus do not have a zero carb diet just have carbs that nature intended, like fruit and veg. Pasta, rice and spuds are not what we are designed to eat.
> 
> Pasta is artificial, rice and spuds cannot be eaten raw. So our bodies cannot cope with them.


I'm only doing 0 carb for dieting reasons, once that's successful I will move onto Paleo which opens up what I can eat a lot more in terms of fruit and veg. My immune system is down because I don't eat fruit so I have been drinking smoothies for this week, then I will return back to keto. I completely understand the caveman diet mentality and that there are healthier carb choices.


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## RockyD (Oct 8, 2012)

How about , ditch the fancy diets and just cut the calories

I know, it will never catch on!


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## rectus (Jan 18, 2012)

Beklet said:


> He isn't entirely to blame, no. Thought I posted the link in my last post?
> 
> This from the article, but it goes into much more depth.
> 
> ...


What an excellent article! I wouldn't be surprised if there was a rebuttal to it though  Are we any closer to the truth? Well whenever I feel like I have truth within grasp, it is raped and taken from me.


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

rectus said:


> Sorry for posting the Daily Mail, but it does lead me to a question.
> 
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2244299/Ditch-fancy-diets-just-cut-fat-Eating-healthily-reliable-way-lose-weight.html
> 
> ...


Thanks for the link to the original study, will review it later.

For me I don't change macros when I cut, I simply eat slightly less and exercise a little more. With my genetics and the existing make up of my diet this works well for me, but for those with a different genetic profile, different current diet and different current state of physiology than myself, my diet and approach would certainly not be equally effective - it would be for some, but certainly not everyone. Where I've helped people cut and lose fat, it's not at all the case that each person responds best to the same diet... people vary a lot.

In truth though the debates that focus on 'carbs vs fats' in obesity and body fat management are now just so outdated in the context of modern nutritional research that it's almost embarrassing when they come up again and again - modern nutritional research now recognises genetic, environmental, physiological and micro nutrient dietary factors to be the main players, with the macronutrient approach being simply too crude, inaccurate, and absent of important caveats and conditions to be of much value in the debate. Unfortunately however the popular media, and even many bloggers and authors on the subject who made their names debating about macros and metabolic advantages ten-fifteen years ago are still stuck in the argument and seem to be rehashing the same old points and missing the newer revelations about other things.

Remember, anyone who claims they definitively know the answer doesn't know the answer - science has a long way to go, and the best evidence so far suggests there simply isn't a single best diet to control body composition for everyone.


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## rectus (Jan 18, 2012)

dtlv said:


> but for those with a different genetic profile, different current diet and different current state of physiology than myself.


How far are we with being able to measure these things for the average person? I know you can have have your genetic make-up analysed to see what kind of diet and lifestyle will benefit you most, but it's not a system that's available at our local Doctors as of yet  Imagine how great it would be, you would get your results back with all the information to lead a healthy, lean and sexy life.


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

rectus said:


> How far are we with being able to measure these things for the average person? I know you can have have your genetic make-up analysed to see what kind of diet and lifestyle will benefit you most, but it's not a system that's available at our local Doctors as of yet  Imagine how great it would be, you would get your results back with all the information to lead a healthy, lean and sexy life.


Well for a start not all the genes are identified, but you can take a cheek swab test (cost around £100 total, which tbh is ok but more expensive than it could be and should go down over time) for several of the important ones which, when analysed together, accurately predict whether fat loss is made more easy by a lower carb or lower fat diet.

A secondary, and cheaper and easier method, is to do a fasting glucose and glucose clearance test - if you come out as insulin sensitive then you'll not be hindered in losing fat with a higher carb content of diet, whereas if insulin sensitivity is impaired (either through genes or other physiological mechanisms) then reducing carbs, especially sugar, will be very beneficial.

Finally, for many people who have spent a long while simply trying different diets, the one which works for them will likely be a good indicator of which SNP's/genetic class you fall into to.

Basically, if you have methodically explored several different diets giving each an equal chance and found that one seems to work best of all for you, then stick with it - trust your observations of your own body. If starting out on the fat loss road however, and especially when seeking to lose fat urgently for health reasons, then perhaps there is a valid case for going straight to one form of testing to avoid wasting time.


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