# keto diet



## andy51086 (Jun 25, 2008)

as there seems to be a lot of talk about keto diets i think i will try one. i am wanting to lose some bf before i go on holiday in august.

i have been trying to loose weight for a few weeks now and i keep coming off the wagon. what i need is something simple that is written to so i know what i need to eat and when, keto seems to be the best for this and also a good way to lose bf.

i have a few questions about keto diets.

what is best a ckd or tkd?

i do a fully body workout 3x a week, will this need to change?

is pre brekkie cardio needed? say 30 min 5 days a week

were can i get info on the dp keto diet? i hear people talking about the 250lb diet and the 200lb diet, where do you get the diet from

thanks :laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:


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## DRED (Apr 13, 2006)

http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/losing-weight/47495-dp-keto-diet.html


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## andy51086 (Jun 25, 2008)

DRED said:


> http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/losing-weight/47495-dp-keto-diet.html


i read most of you thread mate ealier its the first time i have seen it so well done on the amount of fat you lost.

at page 99 alasttair's diet looks a lot better for me, would it be okay to use his instead?

and yours is for a 250lb man i only weigh 180lb does this matter?


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## DRED (Apr 13, 2006)

there is one listed for a 200lb man in there somewhere.....i will see if i can find it for you


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## Big Dawg (Feb 24, 2008)

andy51086 said:


> as there seems to be a lot of talk about keto diets i think i will try one. i am wanting to lose some bf before i go on holiday in august.
> 
> i have been trying to loose weight for a few weeks now and i keep coming off the wagon. what i need is something simple that is written to so i know what i need to eat and when, keto seems to be the best for this and also a good way to lose bf.
> 
> ...


Hi mate. IMO CKD is far superior. Firstly due to the fact that insulin is controlled all week, and secondly because you get to have a controlled blow out all week end that is actually beneficial to progress if done right.

Stick with the same workout IMO mate, and your cardio suggestion is a fine starting point.

What are your stats? I can write you up a diet if you want. I've switched from palumbo's high protein, moderate fat to a more moderate protein (still high, but 180g instead of 260g), high fat. Around 65% fat is optimal IMO as the body knows what to use for fuel then. Since switching I've already noticed amazing progress.


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## andy51086 (Jun 25, 2008)

i wouldnt mind if you could do me a diet mate.

im fussy though lol

what stats do you need?


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## andy51086 (Jun 25, 2008)

ok i have found the diet for the 200lb man

MEAL #1

5 whole eggs (make sure to buy OMEGA-3 EGGS from the supermarket. They contain virtually NO saturated fat and tons of good OMEGA-3 fats); add another 4 egg whites to this (they don?t need to be the Omega-3 ones; you can use liquid egg whites)

MEAL #2

SHAKE: 50g Whey Protein with 1 ? tablespoon of All Natural Peanut butter (no sugar)

MEAL #3

"Lean Protein Meal": 8oz chicken with 1/2-cup cashew nuts (almonds, or walnuts)

MEAL #4

SHAKE: 50g Whey Protein with 1 ? tablespoons of All Natural Peanut butter (no sugar added)

MEAL #5

"Fatty Protein Meal": 8oz Salmon, Swordfish, or RED MEAT with a green salad (no tomatoes, carrots, or red peppers) with 1 tablespoon of Olive Oil or Macadamia nut oil and vinegar

MEAL #6

SHAKE: 50g Whey with 1 ? tablespoon all natural peanut butter or 4 whole (Omega-3) eggs and 4 extra whites

in meal 5 could i have green beans instead of the salad?

is this diet similar to what you were going to put up for me alasTTair?


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## Big Dawg (Feb 24, 2008)

No, that was similar to the one I was following previously. However, since embarking on it I've been doing all the reading I can into ketogenic diets and read the entire book by Lyle Mcdonald. While Palumbo's diet is nice and simple, there's a few things which IMO should be changed to optimise it. Namely these are reducing the protein, increasing the fat and increasing (and setting specific guidelines for) the carb up.

Here's my current diet, take from it what you will:

07:00

ECA stack

45 mins cardio

08:00

5 whole eggs

10:30

25g protein power

50ml dbl cream

13:00

100g cooked chicken breast

40g peanut butter

16:00

25g protein power

50ml dbl cream

17:30

Train - 45 mins

19:00

175g cooked mince (rinsed)

25g cheese

21:30

5 whole eggs

5 fish oil caps daily

10g fibre to be consumed ED

Works out at 2265/9.1/181.5/159.82 cals/carbs/protein/fat.

So it's pretty much still following Dave's basic plan, though I've just halved the portions of chicken and whey and upped the fat predominantly. Switched from PB to double cream as it's lower carbs.

Then 2 hours pre-wo on friday the 36 hour carb-up begins, which involves 700g of high GI carbs for the first 18 hours and 350g low GI carbs for the following 18 hours. The fat's dropping off atm, so I'm happy with it. I wouldn't recommend taking Dave's advice blindly mate, and I'd strongly recommend getting a book on the ketogenic diet.

Here's an article with the important bits from the book. Read it, it's very interesting: http://www.bodybuildingdungeon.com/forums/nutrition/2156-cdk-cyclical.html


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## andy51086 (Jun 25, 2008)

AlasTTTair said:


> No, that was similar to the one I was following previously. However, since embarking on it I've been doing all the reading I can into ketogenic diets and read the entire book by Lyle Mcdonald. While Palumbo's diet is nice and simple, there's a few things which IMO should be changed to optimise it. Namely these are reducing the protein, increasing the fat and increasing (and setting specific guidelines for) the carb up.
> 
> Here's my current diet, take from it what you will:
> 
> ...


i will give a read just now


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## Big Dawg (Feb 24, 2008)

An eca stack...look it up. You don't like cream? Peanut butter would be fine.

Read the link - all the info you'll ever need is there. This is just my diet. You can easily construct one using the info available to you.


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## andy51086 (Jun 25, 2008)

ok read the articale mate. so should i change my training to something lighter when on the diet?

if you are have your carb up day taking in 700g of carbs but no more than 73g of fat

even on cheat/carb up days you still have to count all the carbs and make sure you dont have too much protein?


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## Big Dawg (Feb 24, 2008)

andy51086 said:


> ok read the articale mate. so should i change my training to something lighter when on the diet?
> 
> if you are have your carb up day taking in 700g of carbs but no more than 73g of fat
> 
> even on cheat/carb up days you still have to count all the carbs and make sure you dont have too much protein?


It tells you exactly what to do in the article mate. All those questions are answered in there.

You deplete the entire body in two split workouts on monday and tuesday. Then on friday you do a single full body workout to further deplete the muscles before carbing up. It tells you exactly how many sets and reps etc are needed. If you buy the book it gives you the science behind it and tells you why you need x amount of sets and reps to deplete muscle glycogen to x mmol.

Also as it says in the article, some people can eat whatever they want on carb-up days and be fine. However if you're very precise with it then you can cause fat gain to be minimal to nil, and even potentially burn fat while carbing up.


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## andy51086 (Jun 25, 2008)

i wasnt sure about the training as some keto diets dont have a specific training programe, i will have to read the article again, then i will try and make a diet to suit myself.

i will post it up and you can check it for me, would that be ok?


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## M_at (May 2, 2009)

Alistair, how are you doing the cream in shakes? Made fresh or does the cream keep if it's in a shaker premixed at all?

I'm thinking about adding it to the shake i have at work and PWO but storage confuses me


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## Big Dawg (Feb 24, 2008)

andy51086 said:


> i wasnt sure about the training as some keto diets dont have a specific training programe, i will have to read the article again, then i will try and make a diet to suit myself.
> 
> i will post it up and you can check it for me, would that be ok?


Well it is specific in the sense that it is geared towards optimal depletion. The first two workouts of the week if done correctly will deplete glycogen to an optimal level to function in a ketogenic state. The workout on friday primes the body for the carb up. Try and follow it as closely as possible.



M_at said:


> Alistair, how are you doing the cream in shakes? Made fresh or does the cream keep if it's in a shaker premixed at all?
> 
> I'm thinking about adding it to the shake i have at work and PWO but storage confuses me


I blend the protein powder, cream and some water up and put into two shakers (I make the mix twice). Then I put it in the fridge overnight. If I'm working then I keep my bag in the shade and the shakes will still be cold at around 15:30 when I drink the 2nd one. If I'm at home then I just keep them in the fridge until needed.


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## M_at (May 2, 2009)

Nice tips on the cream shakes AlisTTTair - Kept itself nice and cold and tastes so nice - just like drinking Cookies and Cream ice cream! Reps ahoy


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## bikka31 (Jun 23, 2009)

AlasTTTair said:


> No, that was similar to the one I was following previously. However, since embarking on it I've been doing all the reading I can into ketogenic diets and read the entire book by Lyle Mcdonald. While Palumbo's diet is nice and simple, there's a few things which IMO should be changed to optimise it. Namely these are reducing the protein, increasing the fat and increasing (and setting specific guidelines for) the carb up.
> 
> Here's my current diet, take from it what you will:
> 
> ...


hi mate

this diet looks great to me, im 180lbs.

will this be ok for me?

Is the peanut butter you eat natural and sugar free?

cheers

andy


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## Ash91 (Dec 29, 2008)

bikka31 the peanut butter is natural & sugar free mate yes.


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## bikka31 (Jun 23, 2009)

Ash91 said:


> bikka31 the peanut butter is natural & sugar free mate yes.


cheers ash


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## andy51086 (Jun 25, 2008)

ok according to the keto info that allasTTair posted i need

2155cal

181g fat

132g protein

less than 30g carbs

now i just need to figure out a diet that works


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## bikka31 (Jun 23, 2009)

andy51086 said:


> ok according to the keto info that allasTTair posted i need
> 
> 2155cal
> 
> ...


what is the best way to calculate your body fat, and your lean body mass??

ive tried 2 different calculators online and had 2 different results.

healthstatus.com

180lb male

5ft 9" height

body fat percentage 21%

lean body mass 136.70lb

brainmac.co.uk

180lb male

5ft 9" height

body fat percentage 17.7%

lean body mass percentage 148.14

can you tell me the most accurate way of calculating body fat %

and lean body mass??

I can then work out properly what i need to eat, starting my keto diet

on Monday.

cheers

andy


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## Big Dawg (Feb 24, 2008)

^ You're overcomplicating things dude. It's fairly easy for someone with a trained eye to tell a bf% within 1-2% accuracy. Either get some pics up or just assume you're around 20%. Easiest thing to do would be to just start with 2500cals and 30 mins cardio a day, run that for a week, then decide whether you need to adjust.

I'm going back to the peanut butter shakes next week. Getting really sick of the cream lol.


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## bikka31 (Jun 23, 2009)

nice one al,

I was getting a bit complicated there.

Ill go for 20% like you say and go from there.

Your sick of the dbl cream already??

I was looking forward to having that in my shakes,

youve put me off now. lol

Im gonna get the peanut butter and cream to see which

i prefer.

where is best place to get peanut butter from?

cheers

andy


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## Big Dawg (Feb 24, 2008)

bikka31 said:


> nice one al,
> 
> I was getting a bit complicated there.
> 
> ...


It's nice mate, but just got a bit sickly for me. PB is healthier, but has higher carbs. I'm still only at 15g ED so no worries.

Mate any supermarket will sell whole earth PB. Just make sure that the ingredients are just peanuts and salt or peanuts, oil and salt (no sugar).


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## Ash91 (Dec 29, 2008)

Do you guys just bang the protein powder +natural pb + water into a shaker then shake then drink or put it all in a blender then blend then pour into your shakers? as I assume it would be really thick and horrible if you didn't use a blender??


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## Big Dawg (Feb 24, 2008)

Personally I blend it, but it wouldn't be thick either way - you'll only be using 30-40g PB per shaker. Do you have any idea how small an amount that is? Add 250ml water to it and it's actually a very thin shake.


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## andy51086 (Jun 25, 2008)

ok a few more qusetrions

when taking epo tabs and fish oil tabs and psyllium husks do you add the fat of the tablets into the diet?

no bedtime shake right?

only protein shake after the gym on training days?

cheers

im working on a diet just now


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## Big Dawg (Feb 24, 2008)

andy51086 said:


> ok a few more qusetrions
> 
> when taking epo tabs and fish oil tabs and psyllium husks do you add the fat of the tablets into the diet?
> 
> ...


Yes count the calories and fat from the fish oils into your diet. You don't have to count the carbs in psyllium husks as they are pretty much pure fibre.

No PWO shake, you just have 6 meals a day and throw in your workout between the meals. You can work it so that you have one of your shakes after your workout, but it's one of your meal replacement protein and fat shakes. If you don't have any shakes usually then just have a meal after training.

You can have a shake before bedtime, but again it would be one of your 6 meals/ shakes, not an extra shake.


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## andy51086 (Jun 25, 2008)

im having trouble making a diet the protein intake is too much and not enough fat intake and cals are low

as im needing more fat and cals can i use lean or normal mince instead of extra lean?


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## Big Dawg (Feb 24, 2008)

Post up what you've got.


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## andy51086 (Jun 25, 2008)

meal 1

5 whole eggs

meal 2

25g protein shake

25g cheese or 30g natty pb

meal 3

100g chicken

25g cheeese or 30g natty pb

meal 4

25g protein shake

25g cheese or 30g natty pb

meal 5 ???

meal 6

5 whole eggs

about 1400 cal fat varies from 80g to 100g whether its cheese or pb as does protein about 145g all of this is without meal 5 being added

sorry its a bit vague mate i dont know how you guys can come up with diets, you make it look easy


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## bikka31 (Jun 23, 2009)

you say you have 10g fibre everyday Al.

Is this included in your menu or is it a supplement?

Also i take 1500mg cod liver oil caps. I never thought

to count the fat from these. Do you know the nutritional values

of them?

Are these sufficient enough for my fish oils compared to the 5

you take?

cheers

andy


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## Big Dawg (Feb 24, 2008)

andy51086 said:


> meal 1
> 
> 5 whole eggs
> 
> ...


LOL well it's not like you have a lot of options mate, so it's not the most complicated thing in the world making meals with only 2 ingredients lol.

Looks fine. Just about the same as my diet actually. Get some red meal or oily fish in for meal 5. As long as you know the cals and macros fairly accurately, it will just be a case of increasing the cardio and decreasing the fat when necessary.



bikka31 said:


> you say you have 10g fibre everyday Al.
> 
> Is this included in your menu or is it a supplement?
> 
> ...


As a supplement mate. Fibresure or psyllium husks.

A 1000mg fish oil cap has 1 gram of fat and 9 calories.


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## bikka31 (Jun 23, 2009)

cheers for the advice on the fibre tabs Al.

Im getting em tomorrow.

Can you give me a list of what you eat on the carb up?

eg low gi carbs and high gi carbs.

Im looking forward to a take away pizza but im not sure

of the content. can you give me a rough count on a takeaway pizza?

Do you think the pizza place will have nutritional values of their pizza's?

cheers

andy


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## Big Dawg (Feb 24, 2008)

Mate I'm all for giving help and advice, but you seem to just want to get all your answers from questions and aren't willing to do any of your own research.

Can I give you the count of a pizza? Are you fcuking kidding me? Who do you think I am, the takeaway research guy?

If you care so much about eating pizza, call the takeaway mate.

And do some research on high and low GI carbs. I'm not spoon feeding you.


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## andy51086 (Jun 25, 2008)

ok after doing some reading i have gone for a 65% fat 30% protein and 5% carb diet. my diet looks like this

meal 1

5 whole eggs

meal 2

25g protein shake

30g pb

meal 3

100g chicken breast

1/2 cup nuts (macadamia,peanut)

1 tbsp oilve oil

meal 4

25g potein shake

30g pb

meal 5

150g lean beef mince

mixed green salad or green beans

1tbsp olive oil

meal 6

5 whole eggs

works out to be

2424 cal

181g fat

186g protein

27g carbs

5 litres of water each day

10g fibre each day

6 omega 3 tabs each day

i used this calculator form bodybuilding.com its quite good.

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=784518

the calculator is a zip file at the bottom of the first post

the only thing about the calculator is it doesnt tell you if its lbm you enter or full weight. i entered my full weight which is 177lb

any opinions befor i go and buy all ths stuff today

cheers


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## andy51086 (Jun 25, 2008)

bump


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## bikka31 (Jun 23, 2009)

sorry about the questions al, supposed i deserved that grilling.

Ill do some research then post my diet up.

Andy, your diet is looking good mate.


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## bikka31 (Jun 23, 2009)

am i allowed to cook in olive oil or does it have to be added after?

Ive heard it takes nutrition out of it.


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## B-GJOE (May 7, 2009)

bikka31 said:


> am i allowed to cook in olive oil or does it have to be added after?
> 
> Ive heard it takes nutrition out of it.


No! don't heat it!


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## Big Dawg (Feb 24, 2008)

B|GJOE said:


> No! don't heat it!


Don't generalise. Cooking with olive oil is fine. Cooking with extra virgin olive oil is not fine as it has a low smoke point and heating damages the nutritional profile.


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## bikka31 (Jun 23, 2009)

cheers for tip on the olive oil Al.

Im just working out my cardio based on the CKD article.

It says to do cardio on wednesdays, thursdays and maybe on your days off if you need to.

I was thinking about running evry morning till i read that.

Do you think cardio every day would be a problem? with maybe

1 or 2 days off if i feel i need to.

whey gourmet cookies and cream shake, peanut butter and olive oil blended, went down a treat.


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## invisiblekid (Jun 18, 2006)

AlasTTTair - very quick question regarding the CKD, did you do a 10/14 day depletion to initially get in to Ketosis as recommended by DP & others? I've not see it mentioned in any other the ckd articles I've read.


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## Big Dawg (Feb 24, 2008)

bikka31 said:


> cheers for tip on the olive oil Al.
> 
> Im just working out my cardio based on the CKD article.
> 
> ...


I do 45 mins 7 days a week now. I started with 30 mins 7 days a week. May be best to start off on less, but I enjoy AM cardio.



invisiblekid said:


> AlasTTTair - very quick question regarding the CKD, did you do a 10/14 day depletion to initially get in to Ketosis as recommended by DP & others? I've not see it mentioned in any other the ckd articles I've read.


I ended up depleting for around 10 days before deciding I needed to carb up. In future I'll just deplete for 5 days, carb up for 2 etc from the get go. Lyle Mcdonald says that you'll establish ketosis quicker if you do it for 2 weeks, but if maintaining workout intensity will be a problem then don't bother. Just means it can take an extra week or two to get into ketosis properly. It won't make the slightest difference to fat loss -will just mean you may have the groggy feeling for a bit longer initially.


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## invisiblekid (Jun 18, 2006)

Thanks for the input.

One other question - I'm just looking for a point of view - I've done the DP diet and basically burned myself out by only taking on around 200g-300g carbs per week on a Saturday re-feed meal (rather than the day).

I reckon I'm still depleted, but to be honest I feel like crap and my workouts are shockingly poor. I accept there will be some drop in workouts, but not to the extent I'm seeing.

So - would you come off the diet for say the remainder of the week and start again properly on Monday or just kick on until Friday night and go for a proper re-feed? I guess it doesn't matter a great deal - just wanna know if I should either take advantage of my depleted state or refeed, essentially.

Thanks! And apologies to the OP for the slight hijack.


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## Big Dawg (Feb 24, 2008)

invisiblekid said:


> Thanks for the input.
> 
> One other question - I'm just looking for a point of view - I've done the DP diet and basically burned myself out by only taking on around 200g-300g carbs per week on a Saturday re-feed meal (rather than the day).
> 
> ...


Hmmm tricky one. I had the same problem the other week. I had started the Dave Palumbo diet, had my cheat meal, then done some reading and decided that his way was inferior. I had to make it until next friday night with about 250-300g carbs in me. By Wednesday it was a fcuking nightmare and I honestly wanted to die. I decided that I had to last until friday or I'd never get into the routine of things, so I just stuck it out and it was fcuking hard.

The problem is, if you try and go all the way until friday with no carbs now, when friday comes you'll end up gorging on ridiculous amounts of carbs and will probably gain back some of the fat you've lost. So it's up to you really, but bear in mind that your refeed doesn't have to be on a friday; it just fits in with most people's lives.

IMO the two options you have are 1) push on through until friday, but don't train until then, and when you do just do a very light depletion workout. Also you've got to know if you're going to be able to control yourself on friday or not, cos if you go into it thinking "This is gonna be great, I'm going to eat loads of carbs" then you'll fcuk it up. The attitude has to be, "This is just another diet day and I have to eat exactly x number of carbs and stick to the plan. If you don't think you can control yourself then I would go with option 2), which is start introducing small amounts of low GI carbs into your diet now and eat a moderate carb diet (still in a deficit) until saturday night, then start keto dieting from sunday-friday and get into the ckd routine that way.

I want reps for this fcuking answer lol :lol:


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## andy51086 (Jun 25, 2008)

am i right in thinking that there is no carb up meals for the first 2 weeks?


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## Ironclad (Jun 23, 2009)

(not wanting to hijack thread but) I can't eat CHEESE. What could be a good alternative for where I see meals like, omlette and grated, steak and a slice etc?

I'm thinking fried mushroom or garlic mushrooms..


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## invisiblekid (Jun 18, 2006)

andy51086 said:


> am i right in thinking that there is no carb up meals for the first 2 weeks?


Just been discussed briefly above. Personally, I'd wait at least 10 days. During the 2nd week Keto kicks in fully and energy rises which will get you through until your re-feed. Training shouldn't be impaired.



Witch-King said:


> (not wanting to hijack thread but) I can't eat CHEESE. What could be a good alternative for where I see meals like, omlette and grated, steak and a slice etc?
> 
> I'm thinking fried mushroom or garlic mushrooms..


Not eating cheese is fine. Cheese will produce mucus anyway if eaten in large quantities and arguably a layer of fat under the skin. Avoid mushrooms due to the carb content. Frying a food doesn't automatically make it keto compatible!

Creams, oils, nut butters (i can't stand peanut so I use almond butter), fatty meats (think Lamb, Beef, Salmon), fish oil supplements, eggs are all good choices. Even bacon and sausage (keep an eye on carb contnet) are ok as a treat.

Just remember, Keto isn't an excuse to eat utter sh!te :whistling:


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## invisiblekid (Jun 18, 2006)

AlasTTTair said:


> Hmmm tricky one. I had the same problem the other week. I had started the Dave Palumbo diet, had my cheat meal, then done some reading and decided that his way was inferior. I had to make it until next friday night with about 250-300g carbs in me. By Wednesday it was a fcuking nightmare and I honestly wanted to die. I decided that I had to last until friday or I'd never get into the routine of things, so I just stuck it out and it was fcuking hard.
> 
> The problem is, if you try and go all the way until friday with no carbs now, when friday comes you'll end up gorging on ridiculous amounts of carbs and will probably gain back some of the fat you've lost. So it's up to you really, but bear in mind that your refeed doesn't have to be on a friday; it just fits in with most people's lives.
> 
> ...


Reps are in the post mate! Thanks for the reply.

I've taken the 2nd option and gone for introducing carbs for the remainder of the week. Then I'll jump back in to a Keto diet, waiting 14 days before re-feeding. This is probably the easier option if I'm honest, but I'm just too tired. Very annoyed with myself!

I can stick to a diet very easily. I'm pretty disciplined, so the 14 day period isn't a problem. I'll be training again on Friday. Hopefully, get some decent poundage's in. :thumb:


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## Big Dawg (Feb 24, 2008)

Mate why don't you just start doing 5 days keto, 2 days refeed from the get go? You'll still get into ketosis, but the process will be slightly more spread out, perhaps taking an extra few days. You'll be depleted as fcuk after 5 days of no carbs and 3 heavy training sessions, so just start straight away IMO.


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## bikka31 (Jun 23, 2009)

I found the hardcopy of this book hard to get hold of so

heres the link to THE KETOGENIC DIET ebook, by lyle mcdonald.

Its all there free.

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=J...esult&resnum=4

the only ones i found were from america or second hand that were extortionate in price.


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## andy51086 (Jun 25, 2008)

ok about to start my carb up phase of my diet i have alreday had 100g malto and 50g protein for my pwo.

i now have about 500g of carbs to use in 30 hours anyone got any ideas what i should be eating?

let me know asap as im starving :laugh::laugh: :thumb:


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## Big Dawg (Feb 24, 2008)

andy51086 said:


> ok about to start my carb up phase of my diet i have alreday had 100g malto and 50g protein for my pwo.
> 
> i now have about 500g of carbs to use in 30 hours anyone got any ideas what i should be eating?
> 
> let me know asap as im starving :laugh::laugh: :thumb:


Well planned mate


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## infrared (Jun 30, 2009)

andy51086 said:


> ok about to start my carb up phase of my diet i have alreday had 100g malto and 50g protein for my pwo.
> 
> i now have about 500g of carbs to use in 30 hours anyone got any ideas what i should be eating?
> 
> let me know asap as im starving :laugh::laugh: :thumb:


potatoes, rice, cous cous, bread, oats, cereal, parsnips, sweetcorn, barley, quiona, pittas, tortillas and legumes all work well.


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## goal-chaser (May 27, 2009)

hey Al, is it ok to supp creatine on this plan??????


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## invisiblekid (Jun 18, 2006)

goal-chaser said:


> hey Al, is it ok to supp creatine on this plan??????


Personally, I can't see why not. Remember Keto diets are diuretic and you are advised to increase water intake with both keto diets and with creatine supplementation. So you're going to have to make sure you are consuming LOTS of water.

I imagine creatine may help fight the flat look you often get on low carb diets? I can't comment too much on this as I don't use creatine as I don't react well to it :thumbdown:


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## barrowvian (Sep 6, 2008)

Sorry to just jump in the thread but AlasTTTair's info here is great advice and was wondering if you could shed a little more light on a few things for me please? I know if reopening an old post but just seems safer to work on from where things left off.

1 - The depletion of 10-14 days initially is sorted before the refeed, however, after the first refeed do you recommend working till each friday and refeeding or going another 10-14 days before refeeding again?

2 - Is there any specific guidelines you would recommend sticking to (weight to carbs ratio etc)? For example, Im 180lbs so I'd need approx 'x' amount of carbs.

3 - Lastly, refeed periods. Do you do it all day friday and all day saturday or is there any guideline time to start? Also, for your last meal on saturday (approx 8-9pm) do you keep with the carbs or do you try and reduce them again to kick things off nice and early for the sunday?

Cheers, your help would be massively appreciated here :thumbup1:


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## BigBiff (Sep 30, 2008)

An all day refeed on sh1t can cause some serious damage to your hard earned work  , as ive found, dont get me wrong! some people can get away with it, ive done entire days of ULTIMATE sh1t and i did manage to lose and get back into good shape several days later due to taking t3/clen and other anabolics + 2 hours and more cardio daily haha

However since coming off all this now and being completely natural you cant get away with it as well (well i cant lol), id stick to a 2 hour refeed, or just 1 meal before bed, i was gaining over 36 pounds in a weekend on my refeeds, the body does not want this lol. Each to there own but i wouldnt recomend a full day refeed on [email protected] Good source of carbs yes, and the occasional cheat.


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## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

when I have run high protein zero carbs, I found my body smell changed for the worse

Anyone else get this??


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## BigBiff (Sep 30, 2008)

yep i get it quite bad haha, its caused by mineral deficiency supposidly in certain foods.

Also choline is raised when you eat too many of the following foods eggs, beans, chicken, fish etc which gives off a "fishy" body odour lol


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## barrowvian (Sep 6, 2008)

my body odour has been fine over the last 2 weeks, however Ive had a bad case of dog **** breath and sugar puff **** :tongue: I know when its getting bad cause the gf goes and gets the mouthwash haha


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