# top of chest



## curtis1

any suggestions on the best things to really target the top of my chest???

many thanks


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## Dandy-uk

just stick with bench presses dumbell flyes etc


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## neildo

Incline dumbell press hits it best for me!


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## Dandy-uk

and that  that was my ETC lol


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## Rebus

Forget flat bench work and just work around incline presses and incline flyes.

I consider flat bench to mainly work the mid to lower chest which isnt a good luck if over developed without an upper chest. Hit the inclines and it will develop this area and make the chest more full looking, developing the upper to mid chest


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## Joshua

Check your scapular position.

J


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## d4ead

incline bench

incline fly

incline dumbells

take your pic.....


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## Prodiver

Decline presses and strict cable crosses.

Forget the rest...


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## Prodiver

18spike18 said:


> prodiver, i didnt know decline worked the upper chest.
> 
> i know from your other posts that you are very knowledgable so could you explain this please ?


I hesitate to repeat, but your pecs are designed to pull your hands/arms from outstretched overhead to your nuts. The upper pecs do the last pulling in of your upper arms tight into your chest.

The only exercises which really mimic this movement are decline presses and strict cable crosses.

The flatter and then more inclined presses become the less stress they put on the pecs, especially the upper pecs, and the more they place on the delts, so normal inclines are effectively only shoulder exercises.

I can't think where the idea that inclines work the upper pecs came from...


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## d4ead

Prodiver said:


> I hesitate to repeat, but your pecs are designed to pull your hands/arms from outstretched overhead to your nuts. The upper pecs do the last pulling in of your upper arms tight into your chest.
> 
> The only exercises which really mimic this movement are decline presses and strict cable crosses.
> 
> The flatter and then more inclined presses become the less stress they put on the pecs, especially the upper pecs, and the more they place on the delts, so normal inclines are effectively only shoulder exercises.
> 
> I can't think where the idea that inclines work the upper pecs came from...


just about every weightlifting article ever writen. in fact your is the only post/thing i have ever read that promoted the decline instead.

interesting.


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## d4ead

oh and the fact you can very much feel incline exercises on the top of the chest were decline allways feel more in the lower central parts.

easy to see where the idea comes from.


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## Prodiver

d4ead said:


> oh and the fact you can very much feel incline exercises on the top of the chest were decline allways feel more in the lower central parts.
> 
> easy to see where the idea comes from.


Yes the feeling comes from the heavy stress put on the upper pecs by the weights used to stress the lower - but in fact the pecs and especially the upper pecs are hardly moved by flat and incline presses!

You get much more movement, stress, intensity and growth from declines and cable crosses.


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## Prodiver

18spike18 said:


> thanks for your reply prodiver, i train at home and my bench is only flat and incline, so would you just recomend i keep doing what im doing ( flat bench, incline bench, flies) and hope my upper chest fills out ?


Good old flat benching will give you general power and thickness, but can you try to arrange something safe - like a big wedge of foam to put under your back and ar$e?


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## d4ead

how the hell are you the only person in the world that knows this, when everyone ele both pro and amature concentrate on incline all the time and most advise you leave out decline all together.

years of training waisted


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## Prodiver

d4ead said:


> how the hell are you the only person in the world that knows this, when everyone ele both pro and amature concentrate on incline all the time and most advise you leave out decline all together.
> 
> years of training waisted


Sorry, but I'm by no means the only or the first to say this - search Dorian's interviews - he says exactly the same thing - and I was told this by old champs in the 70s.

I guess some of us have given up pointing it out to youngsters - who love inclines for some reason - prob easier to see themselves in the mirror, or they're less vulnerable than lying down, or something...


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## Graystone

Provider is right about decline being more effective for chest and I wouldn't say he is the only person to know this, as Dorian Yates has said he used it as his staple chest building exercise for years.

He mentions it somewhere in this interview http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/dorian_yates_training_insight.htm


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## d4ead

i think its because of all the press we get our info from places like this and the current crop of mags out there likeflex or beef. while i realsise a lot is ghost writen for some reason they all really push the incline movements and neg the declines.

to be honest ive allways included decline in my workouts thank god, but i must admit i had been taken in and had recently tryed to concentrate much more on the incline work.

disapointed in the poor information out there, odd you have both mentioned dorian yates id be interested in who else promotes the decline.

i just want to make it clear im in no way disbelieveing, just agreeved at the modern publications directing us in the wrong way.

im not the only one look at the early responces to this thread. trust me its what were being told not just cos we wanna see in the mirror.

i must admit i really should read up on some of the old grates. rather then modern publications.

whats your take on the heavy weight low rep or lower weight and heigh rep to build muscle mass?


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## flapjack

I recently got into decline presses when I took the advice of one of the older fellas at our gym. He is in his fifties but has a much better body than most half his age. Probably got lucky with the genetics but must know a thing or two about training from the look of him.


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## d4ead

im just glad ive ignored what i read and kept decline in my routine, still ive waisted a lot of time on incline.

ive allways liked the feel of decline, but odly i feel it more in my shoulders, but seems were you feel an exercise is no indication of what its workinng.

thats why i love this place you learn somthing everyday.


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## stavmangr

curtis1 said:


> any suggestions on the best things to really target the top of my chest???
> 
> many thanks


Add to your chest workout STIFF STRAIGHT ARM BAR PULLOVERS your grip the widht of your shoulders, lie down on a flat bench, dont overload the bar, move the bar in a SLOW and controlled movement .

You can use one or two db to do the same exercise.

In the flat bench exercise when you lower the bar to the neck you train your upper chest.

:cool2:


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## Prodiver

Pullovers ought to be a good pec-building exercise, likewise flyes, but there's an inherent problem with them - the weights only exert maximum force when your arms are horizontal and this diminishes to zero as they reach vertical.

So even if you choose a heavy weight you can only just lift, for most of their range of movement your pecs hardly get worked.

However, if you stand in the right position and make the correct movement in a cable machine you can ensure your pecs experience a fairly consistent force throughout their ROM, which means greater growth.


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## Willie

Could you use a cable row machine and lie on it with your head nearest the pulley to get constant tension for these?


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## neildo

Prodiver.....fancy coming to glasgow and being my training partner?! :beer:


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## Need-valid-info

deffo incline smith press


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## fxleisure

Prodiver said:


> Decline presses and strict cable crosses.
> 
> Forget the rest...


Can you qualify your opinion with any proof?

Are we to disregard then, all the studys carried out over the years that say Incline chest work focuses on the clavicular fibres?


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## Incredible Bulk

IMO the shape of the chest (uppers,inners, outers yadda yadda) just comes through SIZE!

fill the balloon with more air and you'll see more shape, if you dont have much mass then you wont see much shape.

i only started seeing some of this inner/outer/upper lark until i went over 48" in chest size.

All the inclines in the world wont help you develop a good upper chest if you have a small chest overall


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## Prodiver

Willie said:


> Could you use a cable row machine and lie on it with your head nearest the pulley to get constant tension for these?


Yes - there's all sorts of creative ways of using cable machines! :thumb:

The important thing is always to determine the most direct contraction path of the muscle you're trying to work and mimic that movement with as constant a tension as possible throughout the range of movement.


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## IanStu

Prodiver said:


> I hesitate to repeat, but your pecs are designed to pull your hands/arms from outstretched overhead to your nuts. The upper pecs do the last pulling in of your upper arms tight into your chest.
> 
> The only exercises which really mimic this movement are decline presses and strict cable crosses.
> 
> The flatter and then more inclined presses become the less stress they put on the pecs, especially the upper pecs, and the more they place on the delts, so normal inclines are effectively only shoulder exercises.
> 
> I can't think where the idea that inclines work the upper pecs came from...


Wow this is realy interesting, I never realized declines worked upper chest in fact I hardly ever do em, I shall be changing my chest routine from now...thanks for the info.


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## Prodiver

neildo said:


> Prodiver.....fancy coming to glasgow and being my training partner?! :beer:


I've heard of a place called Glasgow... :wink:


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## Prodiver

fxleisure said:


> Can you qualify your opinion with any proof?
> 
> Are we to disregard then, all the studys carried out over the years that say Incline chest work focuses on the clavicular fibres?


According to Dorian - yes. And a simple examination of incline pressing shows pec involvement and ROM is minimal - whatever supposed "studies" say.

There are a lot of erroneous received wisdoms perpetuated in bodybuilding...

Always determine the muscle contraction path and mimic it with a full ROM and maximum stress throughout!


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## fxleisure

Prodiver said:


> According to Dorian - yes. And a simple examination of incline pressing shows pec involvement and ROM is minimal - whatever supposed "studies" say.
> 
> There are a lot of erroneous received wisdoms perpetuated in bodybuilding...
> 
> Always determine the muscle contraction path and mimic it with a full ROM and maximum stress throughout!


So are you saying there is no place for Incline chest press work in anyones routine period, or are we referring to 'building' alone? e.g. would there be a place for incline pressing during a 'cut' or dieting phase?


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## seppuku

Interesting, I've never tried decline *anything* but I will now!


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## Prodiver

fxleisure said:


> So are you saying there is no place for Incline chest press work in anyones routine period, or are we referring to 'building' alone? e.g. would there be a place for incline pressing during a 'cut' or dieting phase?


There's no reason for working - stressing - a muscle except to make it grow. You don't cut by growing a muscle - you cut by diet.

Since inclines barely work pecs they're a huge waste of time - declines and cable crosses are much more efficient.

Inclines aren't even efficient at growing the delts - military/overhead presses and lateral raises are.

Why do guys like inclines so much and think they're effective..?


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## curtis1

could you explain what cable cross overs are???


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## Ak_88

Here curtis

http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/PectoralSternal/CBStandingFly.html


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## curtis1

cool cheers i do those already standing upright then lunging forward the dropping the weight pushing forward and doing a circular motion slowly on the return totally kills your chest.

glad i started this thread got you all going to gym later and declining them benches lol


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## johnnyreid

i like cable flies on a ball, change position on the ball to target parts of ur chest


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## Prodiver

Ak_88 said:


> Here curtis
> 
> http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/PectoralSternal/CBStandingFly.html


Excellent Ak! :thumb:

Some of us stand more upright, start the hands higher and bring them more out front and down to our nuts.

Either way the continuous stress on the whole pec and the big ROM is very effective!


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## fxleisure

Prodiver said:


> There's no reason for working - stressing - a muscle except to make it grow. You don't cut by growing a muscle - you cut by diet.
> 
> Since inclines barely work pecs they're a huge waste of time - declines and cable crosses are much more efficient.
> 
> Inclines aren't even efficient at growing the delts - military/overhead presses and lateral raises are.
> 
> Why do guys like inclines so much and think they're effective..?


Prodriver

Id still like to see some evidence!

Haney, Levrone, Ray, Cutler and Coleman etc. etc..... To name but afew, all perform Inclines in their DVD's If they (Inclines) serve no purpose, why are they performed by IFBB pro's in their DVD's?

I am not disputing Crossovers and declines are not affective!

Come on wheres the research/ proof.....?


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## Prodiver

fxleisure said:


> Prodriver
> 
> Id still like to see some evidence!
> 
> Haney, Levrone, Ray, Cutler and Coleman etc. etc..... To name but afew, all perform Inclines in their DVD's If they (Inclines) serve no purpose, why are they performed by IFBB pro's in their DVD's?
> 
> I am not disputing Crossovers and declines are not affective!
> 
> Come on wheres the research/ proof.....?


You can't disprove a negative!

I don't know why they all like inclines so much considering they do so little - that's why I posed the question. I expect they look good in the mirror and on the DVD - they'll certainly generally pump up the delts and show the pec insertions...

They can do what they like - I don't want to waste time in the gym so I concentrate on exercises which are effective for a clearly demonstrable reason.


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## fxleisure

My copy of One step closer is going on eBay tonight...!


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## curtis1

have you guys ever done flys but instead of holding then over your chest on the return hold them with a overhand grip and return them over your nuts about 3inches!! be warned if you try this dont use the weight you would fly normally:cursing:

probably has a name but i have no clue or desire to know lol


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## Andrikos

declines and/or dips


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## BrokenBack

curtis1 said:


> have you guys ever done flys but instead of holding then over your chest on the return hold them with a overhand grip and return them over your nuts about 3inches!! be warned if you try this dont use the weight you would fly normally:cursing:
> 
> probably has a name but i have no clue or desire to know lol


Yeah ive tryed them but not in years, shall give them ago again on thursday, i know you really feel it in the pecs but not sure if its the pump or growth stimulus .


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## Jsb

Just got back from gym and done chest now found this thread, interesting thread by the way, i dont normally do decline as feels more awkward than any other press due to old elbow/radial fracture that plays up, ive just been ticking over it is getting stronger though so gradually incresing weight, it happened last august any advice please


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## Goose

Need-valid-info said:


> deffo incline smith press


 :lol: have you just ignored everything that has just been said??

What you suggested is probably the worst one out the lot!


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## Goose

When I do cable flys I do them as if im hugging a massive barrell..


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## BrokenBack

Goose are you with me on that smith machines should be taken out of gyms, i know so many people that have fuct up there elbows and other stuff on them, there so un-natural


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## Goose

BrokenBack said:


> Goose are you with me on that smith machines should be taken out of gyms, i know so many people that have fuct up there elbows and other stuff on them, there so un-natural


I used to love them for isolating my shoulders on a military press but too be honest free barbell presses are better. Last time I used one about 2 months ago I was straining so hard on the push up the hole machine fell forward where it wasn't bolted down!! :lol: never again.


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## BrokenBack

Goose said:


> I used to love them for isolating my shoulders on a military press but too be honest free barbell presses are better. Last time I used one about 2 months ago I was straining so hard on the push up the hole machine fell forward where it wasn't bolted down!! :lol: never again.


Fcuk me!! how much weight you have on there then lol


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## fxleisure

BrokenBack said:


> Goose are you with me on that smith machines should be taken out of gyms, i know so many people that have fuct up there elbows and other stuff on them, there so un-natural


BB

What where they doing in order to f*ck their elbows up?


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## Need-valid-info

fxleisure said:


> BB
> 
> What where they doing in order to f*ck their elbows up?


exactly bull**** comments like people get injured using smith machines i mean those comments are so general its like saying squating is bad for your knees or if you bench press you are prone to injury, at the end of the day **** form is **** form.


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## curtis1

not sure if gooses comments were directed at me. but my question about the overhand flys were just a nice to know if anyone else does them not a suggested exercise to work the top of your chest. im grateful for all the suggestions gents


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## fxleisure

Need-valid-info said:


> exactly bull**** comments like people get injured using smith machines i mean those comments are so general its like saying squating is bad for your knees or if you bench press you are prone to injury, at the end of the day **** form is **** form.


My point exactly...


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## fxleisure

Goose said:


> :lol: have you just ignored everything that has just been said??
> 
> What you suggested is probably the worst one out the lot!


Goose, for what reason do you suggest this, because Prodiver says so?

If what he says is true, why is that method not swamping the internet?

If still waiting for the research or article to prove what he is saying!


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## Prodiver

fxleisure said:


> Goose, for what reason do you suggest this, because Prodiver says so?
> 
> If what he says is true, why is that method not swamping the internet?
> 
> If still waiting for the research or article to prove what he is saying!


Look, fx, no article or research is needed to demonstrate what I'm saying - you can prove it yourself.

Lean back on the sofa to about the same angle as an incline press, and mimic the vertical movement with one of your arms as if you were pressing a dumbell.

Feel the delt and pec with the other hand. Notice how the delt is doing all the work, and in fact the pec is stretching slightly, not contracting.

A muscle that is stretching cannot be contracting, and only contracting muscles can lift weights! So inclines do not stress the pecs and will NOT cause growth.

The fact that so many do them is no proof they are effective: there are loads of daft, unfounded ideas rife in bodybuilding - like wide grip pull-downs grow lats best, when close-grip are again demonstrably far more effective!

Always go back to first principles: consult muscle charts, feel your own muscles, determine the muscle's shortest contraction path, and achieve that movement in an exercise with the max weight you can handle and you'll stress the muscle optimally and cause it to grow the most efficiently.


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## Ak_88

So what you're saying PD is that incline isn't good for the upper chest? :lol:

Seriously though, it's quite refreshing to hear a different perspective on it.


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## Prodiver

Ak_88 said:


> So what you're saying PD is that incline isn't good for the upper chest? :lol:
> 
> Seriously though, it's quite refreshing to hear a different perspective on it.


Yes - but it's not just me that's saying it! Check out the interviews with Dorian where he talks about declines and inclines... :whistling:


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## pea head

To be honest with all this you could all go on all night whats right and what isnt,PD your points are interesting mate and i will give it a try.

But i always do incline bench on a smith machine,have done for years,and only recently the last couple of months thrown decline in to my workouts.

Im always one open to new ideas...some guys are not.

And what it all boils down to is horses for courses simple as that.


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## liamhutch

you best be fvckin right now im gettin rid of all incline moves :lol:


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## Graystone

I have already posted a link on an interview with Dorian Yates where he talks about using decline to build his chest.

He is some more information about Arthur Jones, he talks about the original Natulius chest machine being designed to work in a decline position for the same reason Provider has already explained.

http://www.nautilusnorth.com/nautart2.html

I don't think this information is completely unknown as other pro's like Sergio Olvia and Mike Mentzer both used Jones training methods.


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## Prodiver

pea head said:


> To be honest with all this you could all go on all night whats right and what isnt,PD your points are interesting mate and i will give it a try.
> 
> But i always do incline bench on a smith machine,have done for years,and only recently the last couple of months thrown decline in to my workouts.
> 
> Im always one open to new ideas...some guys are not.
> 
> And what it all boils down to is horses for courses simple as that.


Well, unless you're an alien with a different body morphology, the exercises that make my pecs grow will make yours grow, and the ones that won't make mine grow won't make yours grow! Period.


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## d4ead

i have found a couple of interviews that agree including 1with labrada.

good stuff, i still dont understand how or why so many professional have got this wrong, cant all just be doing it to look good in the mirror.

there still seems to be vastly more information, intervieews and dvds that promote incline over the decline. i spent several hours today looking for more information on this.

all good, be interested in the opinions of a few more of the bigs guns on this forum.

you made a point about stretching and contracting to me it feels like most exercises do both over there full range of movment. oddly i allways feel decline moves much more in my shoulders then chest.

still thanks to all for your valued opinions.


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## ba baracuss

Need-valid-info said:


> exactly bull**** comments like people get injured using smith machines i mean those comments are so general its like saying squating is bad for your knees or if you bench press you are prone to injury, *at the end of the day **** form is **** form*.


That's not really the case with the smith though.

The smith dictates your form because of the single plane in which the bar moves and thus puts undue stress on things like the rotator cuff.


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## flapjack

d4ead said:


> good stuff, i still dont understand how or why so many professional have got this wrong,


For how many years was the World known to flat?

A lot of people do something a certain way just because thats the way it has always been done.

Don't make it right!


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## d4ead

flapjack said:


> For how many years was the World known to flat?
> 
> A lot of people do something a certain way just because thats the way it has always been done.
> 
> Don't make it right!


indeed but once people know the world was round they know. its been tought that way since.

dorian was quoted in the 70's saying decline was the way to go, yet here we are best part of 40 years later with the vast majority of proffessionals still getting it wrong.

i cant belive these people have not read dorian opinion or at least not had thhis mentioned, so that can only mean they disagree and still value incline?

im not saying i agree or disagree but theres obviously a lot of exsperianced pros out there that dont agree, in the same way theres a lot they never liked or agreed with HIT.


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## Goose

curtis1 said:


> not sure if gooses comments were directed at me. but my question about the overhand flys were just a nice to know if anyone else does them not a suggested exercise to work the top of your chest. im grateful for all the suggestions gents


No sorry pal they wern't. Was just a generalisation of what I do.


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## LittleChris

I was under the impression Dorian used a low incline as his primary chest exercise (around 30degrees incline).

Any links to where he speaks about a decline bench?


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## Goose

fxleisure said:


> Goose, for what reason do you suggest this, because Prodiver says so?
> 
> If what he says is true, why is that method not swamping the internet?
> 
> If still waiting for the research or article to prove what he is saying!


 :lol: No not at all.. I know Patrick knows his stuff but I have also learnt this from experience.

Last night I trained chest.. I did incline to test this "theory" out and notice it was smashing my front deltoids and not hitting my chest enough.

Decline on the other hand gave me a huge pump in my upper chest and I could definately feel and notice the difference from even looking in the mirror.

You say your still waiting for an article to prove this?? Nothings better than proving it yourself, not everything works with everyone but I can guarantee if performed with the correct technique you will feel it pump your upper pectorals.

I try not to listen to all these articles and just take them with a pinch of salt. As I said earlier, nothings better than proving a theory yourself.


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## Goose

Suprised my post went through it came up with a huge Error message! had 2 now this morning on here...

Hmmm


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## Heineken

Personally inclines hit my chest well, you can shout at me until you're blue in the face, they work for me. Everyone that's switching their routines around just because PD says so.. perhaps you're just not doing them properly? (And no offence to you mate I really enjoy reading your posts and have picked up a lot from you.)

I can't say declines wouldn't work for me as I've never done them and don't have the facilities to do them at my current gym, but would like to try them out.


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## Prodiver

d4ead said:


> i have found a couple of interviews that agree including 1with labrada.
> 
> good stuff, i still dont understand how or why so many professional have got this wrong, cant all just be doing it to look good in the mirror.
> 
> there still seems to be vastly more information, intervieews and dvds that promote incline over the decline. i spent several hours today looking for more information on this.
> 
> all good, be interested in the opinions of a few more of the bigs guns on this forum.
> 
> you made a point about stretching and contracting to me it feels like most exercises do both over there full range of movment. oddly i allways feel decline moves much more in my shoulders then chest.
> 
> still thanks to all for your valued opinions.


Great - thanks! :thumb:

Not all exercises achieve the full ROM of a muscle. This is generally not so good, as a muscle exerts its maximum force and can be optimally stressed when fully contracted. Even so, some partial movements are sometimes beneficial to take a muscle to failure.

If you do declines correctly at the right angle, with the bar lowered over your upper pecs and raised vertically above your navel, you'll get the max ROM of the pecs any press can give. It's easier to get a full ROM and constant stress with cable crosses. Your shoulders have to move in pec exercises because they are the pivot point for the pecs' action.

All good exercises stretch and contract the muscle, but muscles can only exert a force when contracting.

Contraction does not necessarily mean actual movement - just that the muscle fibres are trying to shorten the muscle.

You can lift a weight - concentric contraction - with a certain maximum force; you can hold a greater weight - static contraction; and you can lower an even heavier weight - eccentric contraction.

It's the last slow lowering of the weight after just lifting it, or just failing to raise it completely, or after someone has spotted for you and helped you just raise it completely - negatives - that cause most of the growth. Yet most guys just let the weight drop fast after the last rep..!


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## IanStu

best way to settle this incline v decline debacle is to just try it, doesnt matter what anyone says if it works for you it works....i'm gonna drop the inclines for a few weeks and replace them with declines...then i'll decide who's right!!


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## Prodiver

Heinkeken said:


> Personally inclines hit my chest well, you can shout at me until you're blue in the face, they work for me. Everyone that's switching their routines around just because PD says so.. perhaps you're just not doing them properly? (And no offence to you mate I really enjoy reading your posts and have picked up a lot from you.)
> 
> I can't say declines wouldn't work for me as I've never done them and don't have the facilities to do them at my current gym, but would like to try them out.


If you think inclines hit your chest well you can have no idea how much better declines are! 

We all have the same muscles and, as I said, unless you're an alien with a different body morphology the same exercises work for all guys.

I think I probably know how to do most exercises correctly after 35 years of lifting, observing, questioning and experimenting...


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## pastanchicken

Interesting debate. Never a big fan of declines to be honest, will give them another go though :rockon:


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## Heineken

Yep I'm aware of how long you've been at it, as I've said too.. I've learnt a lot from you. I just disagreed when you said inclines don't work.. at all, whatsoever.. not even a little bit 

The adjustable benches were recently damaged beyond repair at my place, so it'll be a while before I can try out declines.


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## fxleisure

Im not disputing how effective cables and declines are as I use them both in my workouts!

I wont however, remove inclines from my workouts when (a) It works for me ( B) its a proven traditional method.

As already stated by other posters, there has always been and always will be, conflicting opinions on different techniques and movements.


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## Jsb

d4ead said:


> indeed but once people know the world was round they know. its been tought that way since.
> 
> dorian was quoted in the 70's saying decline was the way to go, yet here we are best part of 40 years later with the vast majority of proffessionals still getting it wrong.
> 
> i cant belive these people have not read dorian opinion or at least not had thhis mentioned, so that can only mean they disagree and still value incline?
> 
> im not saying i agree or disagree but theres obviously a lot of exsperianced pros out there that dont agree, in the same way theres a lot they never liked or agreed with HIT.


maybe they have read dorians advice but it might be so effective they keep it to them selves so they stand out in competitions better


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## LittleChris

Did some reading. Dorian was decline pressing up to 500pounds but due to niggles in his shoulder moved to incline (low only). Can't argue that it worked for him though.

Going to try declines next week for sure though.


----------



## fxleisure

Prodiver said:


> If you think inclines hit your chest well you can have no idea how much better declines are!
> 
> We all have the same muscles and, as I said, unless you're an alien with a different body morphology the same exercises work for all guys.
> 
> *I think I probably know how to do most exercises correctly after 35 years of lifting, observing, questioning and experimenting*...


Prodiver

Nobody is disputing your ability to perform exercises correctly.

Harold Marillier was quoted as saying the reason he hates internet forums so much is because inexperienced people come on seeking advice, post their diet or routine and then someone tells them to change it!

Id imagine there has been a few young guys reading this thread run off to the gym to train chest that have dropped inclines out of their workout, do you think this is fair?

Surely people can carry out a mix of declines and inclines into their workouts?

Everyone keeps reffering back to what Dorian has said. Lee Haney won 8 sandows and swore by incline chest movements. Are we to assume because of your 35 years of lifting, observing, questioning and experimenting - he is wrong?


----------



## Goose

LittleChris said:


> Did some reading. Dorian was decline pressing up to 500pounds but due to niggles in his shoulder moved to incline (low only). Can't argue that it worked for him though.
> 
> Going to try declines next week for sure though.


Although I personally feel declines benefit me more than inclines It does sound odd to hear Dorian say that. As surely.. well for me anyway inclines put more stress on my shoulders than a decline would so to change from decline to incline because of a niggle in the shoulder sounds bizarre, No?


----------



## Prodiver

fxleisure said:


> Prodiver
> 
> Nobody is disputing your ability to perform exercises correctly.
> 
> Harold Marillier was quoted as saying the reason he hates internet forums so much is because inexperienced people come on seeking advice, post their diet or routine and then someone tells them to change it!
> 
> Id imagine there has been a few young guys reading this thread run off to the gym to train chest that have dropped inclines out of their workout, do you think this is fair?
> 
> Surely people can carry out a mix of declines and inclines into their workouts?
> 
> Everyone keeps reffering back to what Dorian has said. Lee Haney won 8 sandows and swore by incline chest movements. Are we to assume because of your 35 years of lifting, observing, questioning and experimenting - he is wrong?


I have a problem with guys saying inclines work well for them and hit the upper chest: I can't actually see mechanically, physically, how they can, and I don't believe they do. Period.

If guys change their routines after hearing my considered explanation it's up to them and perfectly fair - they're big guys now and can make up their own minds like I did.

I think there's something else going on: the Pros might, as someone has said, be keeping the most effective exercises to themselves, and just going along with the magazine routines which are regurgitated time and again, much as they're all really natural, of course.

But I think actually that it's not inclines that have any real effect on the pecs, but bad form inclines which really become a kind of flyes. Even so they put far more stress on the delts than ever they do on the pecs.


----------



## Incredible Bulk

fxleisure said:


> Everyone keeps reffering back to what Dorian has said. Lee Haney won 8 sandows and swore by incline chest movements. Are we to assume because of your 35 years of lifting, observing, questioning and experimenting - he is wrong?


if you had all the Mr Olympias in one room they would all swear by different things.

Just because Haney won the sandow 8 times it doesnt mean he is king of all bodybuilding, he just had sh!t competition compared to the other guys lol.

The point is, ask 100 champions and you'll get 100 different answers.

All prodriver is saying is to try it and not dismiss it out of hand because 'Mr X said this.....'


----------



## LittleChris

Goose said:


> Although I personally feel declines benefit me more than inclines It does sound odd to hear Dorian say that. As surely.. well for me anyway inclines put more stress on my shoulders than a decline would so to change from decline to incline because of a niggle in the shoulder sounds bizarre, No?


Odd isn't it.... :confused1:

Dorian has no reason to lie to us mortals though :thumb:


----------



## jamessi88

Prodiver, just how much decline would you recommend with dumbells? There is no adjustable bench at my gym and the only decline has some serious decline. Theres abit blocks of wood nocking about but would this be enough? sorry if you have already mention it but I couldnt find it on a thread search, cheers.


----------



## fxleisure

Incredible Bulk said:


> if you had all the Mr Olympias in one room they would all swear by different things.
> 
> *Just because Haney won the sandow 8 times it doesnt mean he is king of all bodybuilding, he just had sh!t competition compared to the other guys lol.*
> 
> The point is, ask 100 champions and you'll get 100 different answers.
> 
> All prodriver is saying is to try it and not dismiss it out of hand because 'Mr X said this.....'


IB

That was the point I was trying to make.

Dorian says this, Haney says that, it goes on forever..........

Im sure you were joking when saying Haney just had sh*t competition, but even so, id love to see the expression on Frank Richard's face if you were to come down to my gym and say that - In his 60's now and back training a full split routine - LEGEND!

Funny, could of sworn I saw him doing Incline chest on the smith machine the other day, I'll have to remember to tell him they're a waste of time the next time I see him :whistling:


----------



## GunnaGetBig

I switched to declines a couple of months ago and I would say they hit the whole chest a LOT MORE than inclines. Inclines involve too much delt and not enough of the target muscle!

Declines are my favourite chest exersice atm together with strict cross-overs (I hate people that stand there doing cross-overs only to be pushing the weight forwards with their delt and back in a punching motion..wtf???) and weighted dips, my chest is hammered after this!


----------



## Prodiver

fxleisure said:


> IB
> 
> That was the point I was trying to make.
> 
> Dorian says this, Haney says that, it goes on forever..........
> 
> Im sure you were joking when saying Haney just had sh*t competition, but even so, id love to see the expression on Frank Richard's face if you were to come down to my gym and say that - In his 60's now and back training a full split routine - LEGEND!
> 
> Funny, could of sworn I saw him doing Incline chest on the smith machine the other day, I'll have to remember to tell him they're a waste of time the next time I see him :whistling:


Just because Richards does inclines you shouldn't assume he's doing them for his chest. Did you ask him what he's doing them for?

He probably just likes the exercise and the results on his front delts...


----------



## fxleisure

I didn't assume anything!

He was doing them for his chest!


----------



## Prodiver

fxleisure said:


> I didn't assume anything!
> 
> He was doing them for his chest!


Someone should have a word with him...


----------



## fxleisure

hahaha.

i know your on the wind up now mate, im not biting anymore lol...

Anyways, you got any pictures (past or present) detailing this awesome chest of yours that declines and crossovers have built for you?


----------



## Goose

This I would like to see 

A young Patrick!


----------



## LittleChris

Would be interested in some evidence. Although I am expecting this to be countered with lack of adherence to the diet, not interested in building muscle only learning how muscles work.

Perhaps I am a cynic though :lol:

Either way I will be trying them next week Pro so you have one potential convert here :thumbup1:


----------



## fxleisure

Prodiver said:


> Sorry, but I'm by no means the only or the first to say this - search Dorian's interviews - he says exactly the same thing - and I was told this by old champs in the 70s.
> 
> I guess some of us have given up pointing it out to youngsters - who love inclines for some reason - prob easier to see themselves in the mirror, or they're less vulnerable than lying down, or something...


Chest training - by Dorian Yates !

Q | I've been training for four years straight. I weigh 190 pounds and can bench 315 pounds, which people tell me is pretty good. But my chest isn't growing the way I think it should. How can I spark some life into my pecs?

A | More than anything, you may need to make a mental adjustment before you can get your chest to start growing. Right off the bat, you wrote how much you can bench press. That's fine if you're looking to be a powerlifter, but for bodybuilding purposes, the weight you can bench is pretty much irrelevant.

I've seen so many trainers get caught up in the hype of the big bench. It's almost like an addiction for some. They call themselves bodybuilders, yet the first thing they do on chest day is run to the flat bench and pile on as much weight as they can, regardless of their ability to use proper form. I can certainly understand the appeal of being strong and of besting your last workout, but never at the expense of the true goal of any bodybuilder, which is building muscle.

I don't even include flat benching in my pec routine, because I think it stresses the front deltoids far too much to be an effective exercise for building the chest. Also, the angle of the flat bench press puts the pec tendons in a vulnerable position. Many torn pecs in bodybuilding have been the result of heavy flat bench presses.

So what do I do for chest? My chest routine comprises four exercises, which together hit the pecs from every angle required to ensure total development.

*My first exercise is incline barbell presses. I feel that pressing on an incline as well as on a decline allows a better range of movement than flat bench presses.* The angle of the bench should be low--about 30 degrees. Some people don't have the range of motion in their shoulders to come all of the way down to the upper chest when performing these, whether it's due to a structural limitation or an injury. If this is your case, don't force the issue. Come down as far as you can without doing damage to your shoulder joints. Keep the bar under control at all times, making sure to forcefully squeeze your pecs at the top of the movement.

From inclines, I move on to Hammer Strength seated bench presses. I've gone into detail recently in this column as to why I like Hammer Strength machines so much. Suffice to say they will serve your chest-building needs far better than barbell flat bench presses. You can really feel the burn at the top of this movement and get a great stretch in the pecs at the bottom without having to worry about getting stuck under the weight.

Next up are incline dumbbell flyes, which work the middle and outer pecs. Again, keep about a 30-degree incline to the bench and make sure you concentrate on using strict form. It's not about the weight here. Imagine you are hugging a tree, and keep your arms locked in that position throughout the movement.

Finally, I do a single set of cable crossovers. This exercise isn't essential for beginners and intermediate bodybuilders, but it's a nice way to impart an extra burn to the pecs at the end of the workout.

Remember, bodybuilding is supposed to be about quality, not quantity. If you concentrate on quality in your training, the quantity will soon follow.

Just incase you think I modified the article

here it is http://www.dorianyates.net/dorian/site/showthread.php?t=593


----------



## Prodiver

Goose said:


> This I would like to see
> 
> A young Patrick!


I haven't been young for years - act about 23 though..! :laugh:

Not a very good pic but recent. Will 53" chest unpumped do?


----------



## Goose

The famous Hercules gym!


----------



## AR77

I always thought the general agreement was that there was no upper or lower chest. Only Pectoralis Major and Minor.

If there is disagreement on this however, I'd be wondering whether or not declines could lead to an overdeveloped 'lower' chest which isn't really great for aesthetic reasons?


----------



## Corby

After reading through this thread, I am now going to incorporate decline into my routine, and like previously said, I'm going to give it a try because thats all you can do. Hope it works though because my upper chest is underdeveloped compared to my lower.

An excellent discussion though!


----------



## Prodiver

All the pecs that you can see, including the separated section(s) at the top, are the pectoralis major; the pectoralis minor lies underneath it (and causes a different movement, the depression of the shoulder).

All the sections of the pec major are tied into the same insertion - the tendon that attaches to your upper arm, so when you move your arm all of the sections are working.

It may be that you can slightly skew the relative forces on the origins of the sections of the pecs - where they are tied into your ribs and clavicles - by emphasizing a flye rather than a pull-over - but only by very little.

And certainly the more inclined rather than flat your presses become, the more stress is placed on the delts rather than the pecs.

Just as some guys have shorter, peakier biceps and others have longer muscle bellies, some have smaller, rounder pecs and others flatter larger ones.

The only way to gain "upper" pec size is, I think, to grow your pecs overall...


----------



## willsey4

Good thread and good comments made patrick. Intresting read


----------



## Ak_88

Prodiver said:


> I haven't been young for years - act about 23 though..! :laugh:
> 
> Not a very good pic but recent. Will 53" chest unpumped do?


I've just noticed you're from Colchester, when i'm not at uni i live near Chelmsford, seems we were destined to meet :thumb:


----------



## PRL

neildo said:


> Incline dumbell press hits it best for me!


Same


----------



## d4ead

Goose said:


> Although I personally feel declines benefit me more than inclines It does sound odd to hear Dorian say that. As surely.. well for me anyway inclines put more stress on my shoulders than a decline would so to change from decline to incline because of a niggle in the shoulder sounds bizarre, No?


nope said several times now that declines hit your shoulders way more then incline. So makes perfect seance to swap them over.

Im not arguing decline always have included it always will, but then id say the same for incline sooo.

The thread surprised me because i always felt the incline hit the upper chest better then the decline also i always feel the decline a lot more in my shoulders then the incline.

If you have to leave a chest exersise out then leave out flat bench


----------



## Prodiver

We were..? :laugh: Why, are you gay too?

Weren't you sitting with IB at the Portsmouth show?


----------



## Ak_88

LOL, no it just seems we're fairly local!

I was but i'm a final year undergrad at Portsmouth, live about 10 minutes away from guildhall, highly convenient


----------



## Prodiver

d4ead said:


> nope said several times now that declines hit your shoulders way more then incline. ...


This just cannot possibly be true unless your muscles are connected differently..!

Alien?

DMCC found that he could save his shoulders by switching to declines - as I predicted and would be expected...


----------



## Prodiver

Ak_88 said:


> LOL, no it just seems we're fairly local!
> 
> I was but i'm a final year undergrad at Portsmouth, live about 10 minutes away from guildhall, highly convenient


Well come visit the Hercules when you're back home... :thumb:


----------



## jw007

Just read this thread...

Inclines\ declines ??? Mostly I just flat bench and works whole pec for me...

One thing I disagree with strongly earlier in thread...

CABLES????????? FCK OFF what a waste,

yeah sure youll get a good pump (just like you would doing press ups) but you will build FCK ALL MASS

For those who say "my pecs grew loads doing cables" bollox, they grew doing other things

Someone just do cables for pecs and see how far they get lol


----------



## jw007

Actually have a question, for anyone

In past I have gone super heavy on barbell shoulder press..

As such, my back has arched, I have slipped forward on chair due to weight etc etc..

SOOOO, My form has been critisized on occasion for not "isolating delts" and bringing upper pec into play...

Is this in fact Bollox and I was using all delt (according to pro diver theory) and they can all fck off:thumbup1:

Or would you say I was very slightly :whistling: utilising some pec muscles:thumbup1:


----------



## jamessi88

Optimum decline angle anyone?


----------



## Ak_88

jw007 said:


> Actually have a question, for anyone
> 
> In past I have gone super heavy on barbell shoulder press..
> 
> As such, my back has arched, I have slipped forward on chair due to weight etc etc..
> 
> SOOOO, My form has been critisized on occasion for not "isolating delts" and bringing upper pec into play...
> 
> Is this in fact Bollox and I was using all delt (according to pro diver theory) and they can all fck off:thumbup1:
> 
> Or would you say I was very slightly :whistling: utilising some pec muscles:thumbup1:


I don't think what PD is getting at is saying outright that incline doesn't work the chest, moreso that incline doesn't stress the pec to the maximumm potential because it becomes very delt-heavy.

You create an incline rather than an upright position, you bring the pec into play, do you bring it in as effectively as possible? No, because you're training delts.

P.s - You don't bring *some* pec muscles into play, you always activate the whole muscle, however the extent to which you activate it is depending upon numerous other factors. But then again, i'm just being pedantic :laugh:


----------



## d4ead

Prodiver said:


> This just cannot possibly be true unless your muscles are connected differently..!
> 
> Alien?
> 
> DMCC found that he could save his shoulders by switching to declines - as I predicted and would be expected...


hang on prodiver you spent the first half of the thread quoting Dorian Yates to me and pointing out how he was right.

Yet when he says he moves onto incline to relive his shoulders suddenly he knows fuk all as well??

Is there anyone out there you do agree with?


----------



## Prodiver

d4ead said:


> hang on prodiver you spent the first half of the thread quoting Dorian Yates to me and pointing out how he was right.
> 
> Yet when he says he moves onto incline to relive his shoulders suddenly he knows fuk all as well??
> 
> Is there anyone out there you do agree with?


I never said I agree with everything Dorian says: I simply pointed out that I was not the only one to say that declines of all the presses give the biggest ROM and work the pecs hardest.

I still believe that incline presses do less and less for the pecs as the angle increases and don't isolate the "upper" pecs.

Your delts don't come into play in a real decline press at all, so it's amazing that they "get hit" or you can "feel" them...

There - does that make my position any clearer?


----------



## Prodiver

jw007 said:


> Just read this thread...
> 
> Inclines\ declines ??? Mostly I just flat bench and works whole pec for me...
> 
> One thing I disagree with strongly earlier in thread...
> 
> CABLES????????? FCK OFF what a waste,
> 
> yeah sure youll get a good pump (just like you would doing press ups) but you will build FCK ALL MASS
> 
> For those who say "my pecs grew loads doing cables" bollox, they grew doing other things
> 
> Someone just do cables for pecs and see how far they get lol


I disagree Joe. The late Scott Klein favoured cable crosses for pec building and he had awesome pecs.

The reason why most don't derive much benefit from cables is that they don't work out the optimum movement and usually do a crab, most powerful pose, sort of movement starting their arms out at the side and bringing them to the front, which is a flat bench type movement, rather than starting them up and out, standing fairly upright and bringing them down to their nuts - which mimics the pecs' ideal motion.

Of course, then they can't show off with such heavy weights..! :laugh:


----------



## d4ead

so the basic answer is no there is no one you agree with.. hehe

i always feel my delts more on decline then incline. That said i would agree and expect the delts to be more and more involved the more upright your incline bench was set because its getting closer and closer to a shoulder press. That very thing could be the reason my delts don't feel as bad on incline because its a more natural movement for them.

Least i have Yates to back me up on this one. rofl

Overall i do feel the decline working the chest hard thats why i have always kept it in my routine regardless of teh general bad press.


----------



## Prodiver

d4ead said:


> so the basic answer is no there is no one you agree with.. hehe
> 
> i always feel my delts more on decline then incline. That said i would agree and expect the delts to be more and more involved the more upright your incline bench was set because its getting closer and closer to a shoulder press. That very thing could be the reason my delts don't feel as bad on incline because its a more natural movement for them.
> 
> Least i have Yates to back me up on this one. rofl
> 
> Overall i do feel the decline working the chest hard thats why i have always kept it in my routine regardless of teh general bad press.


As I said, always go back to first principles and analyse the muscle movement.

Your pecs can only pull your upper arms down and into your torso. So when you're incline pressing and your upper arms are moving away from your torso your pecs cannot be exerting any force!


----------



## Prodiver

d4ead said:


> so the basic answer is no there is no one you agree with.. hehe
> 
> i always feel my delts more on decline then incline. That said i would agree and expect the delts to be more and more involved the more upright your incline bench was set because its getting closer and closer to a shoulder press. That very thing could be the reason my delts don't feel as bad on incline because its a more natural movement for them.
> 
> Least i have Yates to back me up on this one. rofl
> 
> Overall i do feel the decline working the chest hard thats why i have always kept it in my routine regardless of teh general bad press.


As I said, always go back to first principles and analyse the muscle movement.

Your pecs can only pull your upper arms down and into your torso. So when you're incline pressing and your upper arms are moving away from your torso your pecs cannot be exerting any force!


----------



## Adzi

PD, Is there still a place for flat bench presses if you advise that inclines are no use? It makes sense as i've been doing flat bench and incline DB press for a fair while and gaining too slowly for my liking. Delts and shoulders look good though. I also do cable cross overs, incline flys and dips on chest day? What stays and what should change?? Dont have an decline bench at my gym so can i just jack it up with a step or is would that be too unsafe??


----------



## Jsb

jw i like how you dont pull any punches.

And prodiver you dont mind me saying your an example to us all achieving your physique especially your leg,(i assume you still train as its got good size to it, and you hear all these people whinging "i cant train my legs due to an ingrowing hair" lazy f**kers, your an excellent role model


----------



## Jsb

jw i like how you dont pull any punches.

And prodiver you dont mind me saying your an example to us all achieving your physique especially your leg,(i assume you still train as its got good size to it, and you hear all these people whinging "i cant train my legs due to an ingrowing hair" lazy f**kers, your an excellent role model


----------



## Prodiver

Jsb said:


> jw i like how you dont pull any punches.
> 
> And prodiver you dont mind me saying your an example to us all achieving your physique especially your leg,(i assume you still train as its got good size to it, and you hear all these people whinging "i cant train my legs due to an ingrowing hair" lazy f**kers, your an excellent role model


Thanks Jsb!  Actually I have to nurse my remaining knee very carefully otherwise I literally wouldn't have a leg to stand on, so I only do my leg occasionally. Love the burn though...

Fortunately I had huge legs from all the finning as a diver, but I've already torn the meniscus once doing silly weight machine presses with one leg and had to have it trimmed and washed out...


----------



## Harry Sacks

Prodiver said:


> Sorry, but I'm by no means the only or the first to say this - search Dorian's interviews - he says exactly the same thing - and I was told this by old champs in the 70s.
> 
> I guess some of us have given up pointing it out to youngsters - who love inclines for some reason - prob easier to see themselves in the mirror, or they're less vulnerable than lying down, or something...


Yet Dorian still does inclines


----------



## Prodiver

Adzi said:


> PD, Is there still a place for flat bench presses if you advise that inclines are no use? It makes sense as i've been doing flat bench and incline DB press for a fair while and gaining too slowly for my liking. Delts and shoulders look good though. I also do cable cross overs, incline flys and dips on chest day? What stays and what should change?? Dont have an decline bench at my gym so can i just jack it up with a step or is would that be too unsafe??


Classic flat benching is always great for torso thickness and strength!

Declines can be very unstable without a proper bench...

But there's nothing like strict cable crosses for growing the pecs - providing you get the stance and angles correct as I said.

Strict flat flyes and pull-overs are OK too - they really put stress on the tendon though and you have to keep the weight on all the time - no point in coming anywhere near the vertical as the weight becomes zero, so the ROM is compromised.

I stick to 5 sets each of declines and cable crosses. If you can't feel them the next day you're not doing them intensely enough - or your gear's fake... :laugh:


----------



## Prodiver

Harry Sacks said:


> Yet Dorian still does inclines


See posts 118 and 121...


----------



## d4ead

im sorry bit i think hes just wrong,

i agree that decline does effect the whole chest

i agree that decline will effect the upper chest

i can even agree to the cable crossovers.

but to say that pec's do not exert *any* force when doing incline is just wrong.

I dont mind arguing over what's the most effective way but to make a statement like that is daft.

the simple fact that people have built impressive body's leaving out decline and concentrating on incline kinda washes that statement away.

While i applaud the thinking and the discipline, of going against the flow. The fact remains that prodiver although without doubt a big fella especially for his age does not exactly have a good body or a well built chest. Unless the picture he posted is very deceiving. (yes i saw the size he obviously has mass)

In short i have no doubt that decline builds impressive bulk, but i still think its odd that i have never seen any professional bb indicate in any way that incline movements do nothing for chest. In fact the vast majority including the over quoted Yates promoted incline usage (and no not for delts). i refuse to believe that every other bb is wrong except you.

I know this has been quoted elsewhere and a few other names have been mentioned but most of these quotes merely indicated that they valued the decline for working the upper chest not that all other movements were pointless.

there's far more information and opinion going the other way.

you asked how and why people get confused and like incline i did 1 search on google and every single result except 1 on the first page indicated all incline work should be used for upper chest

http://ezinearticles.com/?Upper-Chest-Exercises---The-3-Best-Exercises-For-the-Upper-Chest!&id=2031963

So please understand its not peoples unwillingness to learn its a supply of bad information.

With this in mind i congratulate anyone who questions you, rather then just going along with it for no other reason but if you don't question, you will never sort the good from the bad advice.

in the interest of being fare and even he's a very good article from labrada that agrees totally with prodiver (although he does not diss incline, and he even says in a perfect world incline should work best)

http://labrada.com/blog/muscle_gain_tips/using-leverage-for-upper-pecs/


----------



## Prodiver

As I've said on UK-M before, you're all big boys now and can do what you like.

From first principles of physiology and observing guys in the gym not growing I believe that incline presses for the pecs are a waste of time - and I don't waste time in the gym.

Oh and declines and cable crosses don't seem to have done me too badly... :laugh:


----------



## Rebus

Prodiver said:


> I hesitate to repeat, but your pecs are designed to pull your hands/arms from outstretched overhead to your nuts. The upper pecs do the last pulling in of your upper arms tight into your chest.
> 
> The only exercises which really mimic this movement are decline presses and strict cable crosses.
> 
> The flatter and then more inclined presses become the less stress they put on the pecs, especially the upper pecs, and the more they place on the delts, so normal inclines are effectively only shoulder exercises.
> 
> I can't think where the idea that inclines work the upper pecs came from...


Hmmm, well ive never done decline press and havnt done flat press for years. Always done incline press and inline flyes with the odd occasional pec deck or cable cross over and my chest is my strongest body part...


----------



## Prodiver

BRABUS said:


> Hmmm, well ive never done decline press and havnt done flat press for years. Always done incline press and inline flyes with the odd occasional pec deck or cable cross over and my chest is my strongest body part...


Phew! Thank God for the pec deck and cable crosses then! :whistling:


----------



## Rebus

Prodiver said:


> Look, fx, no article or research is needed to demonstrate what I'm saying - you can prove it yourself.
> 
> *Lean back on the sofa to about the same angle as an incline press, and mimic the vertical movement with one of your arms as if you were pressing a dumbell.*
> 
> *Feel the delt and pec with the other hand. Notice how the delt is doing all the work, and in fact the pec is stretching slightly, not contracting.*
> 
> A muscle that is stretching cannot be contracting, and only contracting muscles can lift weights! So inclines do not stress the pecs and will NOT cause growth.
> 
> The fact that so many do them is no proof they are effective: there are loads of daft, unfounded ideas rife in bodybuilding - like wide grip pull-downs grow lats best, when close-grip are again demonstrably far more effective!
> 
> Always go back to first principles: consult muscle charts, feel your own muscles, determine the muscle's shortest contraction path, and achieve that movement in an exercise with the max weight you can handle and you'll stress the muscle optimally and cause it to grow the most efficiently.


Another Hmmm as ive just done as suggested above and by jolly your right, my pec contracted a heck of a lot more pushing in a declined motion. Confused now.... I may have to alternate tehm with the inclines week by week and see if any difference to me. :bounce:


----------



## pea head

Prodiver said:


> Well, unless you're an alien with a different body morphology, the exercises that make my pecs grow will make yours grow, and *the ones that won't make mine grow won't make yours grow! Period.*


So,like i said mate im open to new ideas and will give some new angles a

new try.

So i somehow get the feeling my 19yrs of doing chest have just been p1ssed up the wall ????

But to say my pecs wont grow is a bold statement to make if i am not correct.


----------



## Prodiver

pea head said:


> So,like i said mate im open to new ideas and will give some new angles a
> 
> new try.
> 
> So i somehow get the feeling my 19yrs of doing chest have just been p1ssed up the wall ????
> 
> But to say my pecs wont grow is a bold statement to make if i am not correct.


Try even just a week of just honest declines (the best pec-decks give a decline action) and strict cable crosses (stand fairly upright and bring the arms down not forward) and I think you'll notice the sudden difference...


----------



## fxleisure

Prodiver said:


> As I've said on UK-M before, you're all big boys now and can do what you like.
> 
> *From first principles of physiology and observing guys in the gym not growing I believe that incline presses for the pecs are a waste of time - and I don't waste time in the gym.*
> 
> Oh and declines and cable crosses don't seem to have done me too badly... :laugh:


This is an absolute bollox statement!

How can you base someone not growing on them performing incline presses!

Their lack of growth could be down to a whole multitude of reasons. However you are entitled to your opinion, as am I - Inclines should be a compulsary part of anyone's workout. :beer:


----------



## Rebus

Prodiver said:


> Phew! Thank God for the pec deck and cable crosses then! :whistling:


HAHAHA :lol:


----------



## Prodiver

fxleisure said:


> This is an absolute bollox statement!
> 
> How can you base someone not growing on them performing incline presses!
> 
> Their lack of growth could be down to a whole multitude of reasons. However you are entitled to your opinion, as am I - Inclines should be a compulsary part of anyone's workout. :beer:


We're into compulsion now, eh, just because you rate incline presses?

Carry on doing what you like - you don't need us all to do what you do...


----------



## hackskii

Well, I feel inclines would be the most effective for hitting upper chest.

Inclines do stretch the upper chest and you can even feel this stretch.

But try to flex your chest above your head, you will notice it is super hard and the lats will flex.

Just because the muscle is stretched does not mean that the eccentric part of the lift isnt working the muscle, it is and some suggest even more than the concentric part of the lift, if not equally important.

The arms at your side is easy to flex the chest. So this may be something that feels like it is working the chest but there is no stretch on the upper chest doing inclines.

Try this, next chest workout, only do a bunch of sets of either declines or inclines, wait a day or two and feel where the DOMS is most hit.

If it is upper chest on inclines you have your answer, if it is lower chest, you have your answer.

Friday I will do this as it is chest day.

I know alot of guys that do declines, I dont do them myself because I feel that the range of motion is too short, and it incourperates alot of triceps.

I will do this next workout then see.

I personally have never heard that declines target upper chest, it just doesnt seem logical to me, although I dont get much of a pump in chest with inclines and it buggs my shoulder.

Beer hits my brain, and beings I am done with work, I am going to work that...


----------



## pea head

Most people dont do decline because the blood pressure is to much when in that position....head explodes


----------



## Prodiver

hackskii said:


> Well, I feel inclines would be the most effective for hitting upper chest.
> 
> *So do lots of guys, but it's illogical. There's no such thing as the upper chest - only the same pectoralis major and inclines put virtually no stress on the pecs.*
> 
> Inclines do stretch the upper chest and you can even feel this stretch.
> 
> *They may **stretch** the pecs but they don't **stress** them!*
> 
> ...
> 
> The arms at your side is easy to flex the chest. So this may be something that feels like it is working the chest but there is no stretch on the upper chest doing inclines.
> 
> *Eh? See above!*
> 
> ...
> 
> I know alot of guys that do declines, I dont do them myself because I feel that the range of motion is too short, and it incourperates alot of triceps.
> 
> *Of all the presses, declines give the biggest ROM to the pecs - this is easy to demonstrate! All presses use a lot of triceps...*
> 
> ...
> 
> I personally have never heard that declines target upper chest, it just doesnt seem logical to me, although I dont get much of a pump in chest with inclines and it buggs my shoulder.
> 
> *No-one ever said that declines do target the upper chest - they work the whole pec.*
> 
> *
> *
> 
> *
> Of course inclines bug your shoulder - they're primarily a shoulder exercise!*
> 
> Beer hits my brain, and beings I am done with work, I am going to work that...


:laugh::laugh:


----------



## Prodiver

pea head said:


> Most people dont do decline because the blood pressure is to much when in that position....head explodes


Fvck me! Get your BP checked man! :laugh:


----------



## d4ead

This is getting good now


----------



## hackskii

For the record here, I know my man prodiver offers some good analagy of what is going on but how bout this.

My Identical twin brother with the same genetic disposition as myself does inclines and always have.

I dont do them as they hurt my shoulder with the exception of machines where I can use more volume and slower reps to get something from them.

For years I never did them as they felt wrong to me.

My brothers upper chest is noticably bigger than mine.

I am stronger in bench than him, yet he is stronger in DB inclines, DB bench, and bar inclines.

Yet, although our chest is the same size, his upper chest is bigger.

Why would I suggest anything other than the type of exerceses we both do would warrant diffrent hypertrophy?

His upper chest is bigger than mine and I am 3 pounds heavier than him and one inch shorter.

Again, I may even blast the fcuk out of upper chest and I will suggest what and where it is sore.

I would like to mention both of us have great mind to muscle coordination and both of us have lifted for about 35 years.

I like to think I train smart, but I am always open to new things.................

My last post I totally rushed to finish during work, I wrote that all wrong..........lol


----------



## Tall

Prodiver,

I'm still really confused as to why you claim theres no such thing as the upper pecs or why indeed it's "illogical".

Motor units in any portion of a muscle can be activated more so than another via exercise modification.

Incline Bench clearly activates more motor units in the clavicular portion of the pecs than it does on the sternal portion. This is well documented in considerable amounts of scientific literature.

Conversely declines activate more motor units in the sternal portion than they do in the clavicular portion, and due to the decreased ROM and increased tricep recruitment declines allow a greater weight to be moved.

Declines also place the least amount of stretch on the pec. Pec stretch is increased the more the arm is rotated laterally - as in the case of Incline bench, pec stretch decreases as the arm is rotated medially - as is in the case of decline bench.


----------



## Need-valid-info

dorian says incline dont hit upper chest also but then again dorian didnt do squats in his leg workouts mainly he did hack squats and leg presses hes says its to do with the biomechanics of each individual and due to the way his body was made up squatting for him hes says didnt work like it did for others, whose to say tht inclines are the same principle as this they work for sum but not for others, surely this statement going around about inclines not working the upper chest isnt just a general rule like ' dont round your back whilst deadlifting or bounce the weight on your chest whilst benching' etc....


----------



## phys sam

Quick search on google came up with this re: motor units Tall. Here's the abstract. Remember it's only one study but....

Electromyographical Activity of the Pectoralis Muscle During Incline and Decline Bench Presses

Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research, 1997,11(3), 163-167

Stephen C. Glass and Ty Armstrong

The purpose of this study was to determine the relationship between motor unit recruitment within two areas of the pec-toralis major and two forms of bench press exercise. Fifteenyoung men experienced in weight lifting completed 6 repeti-tions of the bench press at incline and decline angles of +30 and-15° from horizontal, respectively. Electrodes were placed overthe pectoralis major at the 2nd and 5th intercostal spaces,midclavicular line. Surface electromyography was recorded andintegrated during the concentric (Con) and eccentric (Ecc) phasesof each repetition. Reliability of IEMG across repetitions was r= 0.87. Dependent means f-tests were used to examine motorunit activation for the lower (incline vs. decline) and upper pec-toral muscles. Results showed significantly greater lower pec-toral Con activation during decline bench press. The same re-sult was seen during the Ecc phase. No significant differenceswere seen in upper pectoral activation between incline and de-cline bench press. It is concluded there are variations in theactivation of the lower pectoralis major with regard to the angleof bench press, while the upper pectoral portion is unchanged.

I have not read this article and cannot vouch for methodological quality


----------



## d4ead

*DORIAN YATES' CHEST-BLASTING ROUTINE*

My first exercise is incline barbell presses. I feel that pressing on an incline as well as on a decline allows a better range of movement than flat bench presses.

From inclines, I move on to Hammer Strength seated bench presses.

Next up are incline dumbbell flyes, which work the middle and outer pecs.

Finally, I do a single set of cable crossovers. This exercise isn't essential for beginners and intermediate bodybuilders, but it's a nice way to impart an extra burn to the pecs at the end of the workout.

Remember, bodybuilding is supposed to be about quality, not quantity. If you concentrate on quality in your training, the quantity will soon follow.

*this is from dorians own chest workout. no mention at all of the incline not helping chest and being pointless, and no mention at all of decline being best.*


----------



## d4ead

[quote name='Results showed significantly greater lower pec-toral Con activation during decline bench press.

No significant differences were seen in upper pectoral activation between incline and de-cline bench press.  [/quote']

so your study says that decline works the lower chest more and the upper chest the same when comparing to incline.


----------



## GunnaGetBig

hackskii said:


> For the record here, I know my man prodiver offers some good analagy of what is going on but how bout this.
> 
> My Identical twin brother with the same genetic disposition as myself does inclines and always have.
> 
> I dont do them as they hurt my shoulder with the exception of machines where I can use more volume and slower reps to get something from them.
> 
> For years I never did them as they felt wrong to me.
> 
> My brothers upper chest is noticably bigger than mine.
> 
> I am stronger in bench than him, yet he is stronger in DB inclines, DB bench, and bar inclines.
> 
> Yet, although our chest is the same size, his upper chest is bigger.
> 
> Why would I suggest anything other than the type of exerceses we both do would warrant diffrent hypertrophy?
> 
> His upper chest is bigger than mine and I am 3 pounds heavier than him and *one inch shorter*.
> 
> Again, I may even blast the fcuk out of upper chest and I will suggest what and where it is sore.
> 
> I would like to mention both of us have great mind to muscle coordination and both of us have lifted for about 35 years.
> 
> I like to think I train smart, but I am always open to new things.................
> 
> My last post I totally rushed to finish during work, I wrote that all wrong..........lol


Would this not suggest that under the skin you are not as identical to your brother as you may believe? Visually you may be the same but biomechanically different


----------



## fxleisure

d4ead said:


> *DORIAN YATES' CHEST-BLASTING ROUTINE*
> 
> My first exercise is incline barbell presses. I feel that pressing on an incline as well as on a decline allows a better range of movement than flat bench presses.
> 
> From inclines, I move on to Hammer Strength seated bench presses.
> 
> Next up are incline dumbbell flyes, which work the middle and outer pecs.
> 
> Finally, I do a single set of cable crossovers. This exercise isn't essential for beginners and intermediate bodybuilders, but it's a nice way to impart an extra burn to the pecs at the end of the workout.
> 
> Remember, bodybuilding is supposed to be about quality, not quantity. If you concentrate on quality in your training, the quantity will soon follow.
> 
> *this is from dorians own chest workout. no mention at all of the incline not helping chest and being pointless, and no mention at all of decline being best.*


D4ead

I posted that several pages ago, shame on you haha :tongue:


----------



## phys sam

The study seems to suggest that under their test conditions motor units in the top fibres of the pec major were aactivated equally with incline and decline.

On the other hand the lower portion was stimulated more with decline.

That's kind of what I think we'd all been led to believe.

What is interesting though (if you are a total geek  ) is that decline recruited more of the pec than incline or flat.

That adds up with the rest of their findings, because incline and decline equally stimulated the upper fibres and decline stimulated the bottom more.

They also found that all lifters were stronger on decline bench >10%. They didn't investigate why and suggested that it could be

1. because decline recruits more pec

2. Accessory muscles work more (as TAll suggested with triceps)

The authors do note that their study was carried out at 70% 1RM and don't know what happens at other levels.

I guess a lot of lifters work around this level though so it made sense to look at this level of effort.

Finally in the discussion section they mention another similar study which concluded that flat and incline stimulated upper fibres more than decline.

They also found that more motor units were recruited with a wider grip than a narrower grip - go figure?!

It's good to learn 

As a disclaimer this is only one/two studies. There may be others that say something completely different - I haven't checked.

To be fair to prodriver, I tried his lean back and feel test and I agree with him when he says logic would dictate incline stiimulates delts more than pecs. Then again the study doesn't look at delts.

MAke of it what you will. I am in no way as expereinced as any of you guys but my suggestion would be it can't be a bad thing to mix and match. Sure use what you find more successful, but you won't know if you don't try it yourself.

From a physio/ injury perspective, I would alsways advise variation where possible. Recruitment of different poprtions of the rotator cuff is almost certainly a good thing and that will only happen with variation of exercise.

Just a thought....


----------



## Goose

Good finding there Sam.


----------



## jw007

Prodiver said:


> I disagree Joe. The late Scott Klein favoured cable crosses for pec building and he had awesome pecs.
> 
> The reason why most don't derive much benefit from cables is that they don't work out the optimum movement and usually do a crab, most powerful pose, sort of movement starting their arms out at the side and bringing them to the front, which is a flat bench type movement, rather than starting them up and out, standing fairly upright and bringing them down to their nuts - which mimics the pecs' ideal motion.
> 
> Of course, then they can't show off with such heavy weights..! :laugh:


Im going to try not to rant lol

Inclines\declines\flat press etc etc are all IMO total body exercises if done correctly, each bringing into play different areas of body to differing degrees depending on how movement is performed...

But all great IMO at stimulating pectoral development amongst other things...

What I do take issue with are CABLES as a mass builder..

Bag of sh1te.....

Patrick you have quoted late scott klein as favouring cables over other chest exercises...

Your argument is flawed...

Firstly, It annoys me the way people are quoting top guys routines and stating thay have good chests blah blah blah.

FACT is all decent pros, high level bodybuilders built the foundation of their physiques using the basic pressing routines.....

Only when super advnced have they then modified their routines to take into account their genetic differences and injurys and preferences..

If you said to me "scott klein built his chest on cables alone from a 1ost weakling" and could back this up, then sure your argument would hold weight

But no he built his pecs up using the basics and modified (if really did) late on in training.

I myself had nerve damage in my arms for 6 months, I built big arms using heavy basics, but for 6 months I could only do high rep partial cables for biceps...

They didnt grow but they didnt shrink either... So its easy to maintain mass once have, but building up with numpty sh1t does not work..

Back to your examples..

You have used yourself on numerous occasions and indeed used scott klein..

Well basically (no offence meant) have seen your pics and having seen you in person Patrick, you do not seem to me to have superior pec development in any way shape or form..

Sure your a big guy, no doubt, but your shoulders and arms far over power your pecs, The exact same way IMO scott kleins chest was a weak point..

Given your theory surely you should have a superior chest or at least on par with the rest of your body???

Now I will of course stand corrected if you can post some recent pics with your shirt off, pectoral muscles not covered by a vest to show your superior chest development obtained by cable isolation exercises???

Conversly, Myself I find has overpowering pectoral muscles (check out pic in my profile) yet I do no cables or decline whatsover......

I suggest to you, that CABLEs as a mass builder are as ineffective at builkding pecs as tricep kickbacks are for building triceps..

I will put myself online and offer up a competition or challenge to you...

You get some newbie trainer at your gym, and you do whatever you need to get him big, BUT you do not let him do any pressing movements for chest or delts as by your analogy (better ways isolating delts than shoulder pressing, so he can do lat raises) they are not isolating and not as effective..

I will do same inmy gym, give me 3 months, lets see who has the biggest progression of all round development in both pecs and delts:thumbup1:


----------



## Goose

Bring out the pictures guys..

:lol:


----------



## Ak_88

phys sam said:


> Quick search on google came up with this re: motor units Tall. Here's the abstract. Remember it's only one study but....
> 
> Electromyographical Activity of the Pectoralis Muscle During Incline and Decline Bench Presses
> 
> Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research, 1997,11(3), 163-167
> 
> Stephen C. Glass and Ty Armstrong
> 
> The purpose of this study was to determine the relationship between motor unit recruitment within two areas of the pec-toralis major and two forms of bench press exercise. Fifteenyoung men experienced in weight lifting completed 6 repeti-tions of the bench press at incline and decline angles of +30 and-15° from horizontal, respectively. Electrodes were placed overthe pectoralis major at the 2nd and 5th intercostal spaces,midclavicular line. Surface electromyography was recorded andintegrated during the concentric (Con) and eccentric (Ecc) phasesof each repetition. Reliability of IEMG across repetitions was r= 0.87. Dependent means f-tests were used to examine motorunit activation for the lower (incline vs. decline) and upper pec-toral muscles. Results showed significantly greater lower pec-toral Con activation during decline bench press. The same re-sult was seen during the Ecc phase. No significant differenceswere seen in upper pectoral activation between incline and de-cline bench press. It is concluded there are variations in theactivation of the lower pectoralis major with regard to the angleof bench press, while the upper pectoral portion is unchanged.
> 
> I have not read this article and cannot vouch for methodological quality


I used this paper a lot in my dissertation that i've just completed, if anyone wants a hard copy of it send me a PM and i'll forward it on.


----------



## colrob1

ive gotta say that i really struggle getting any sort burn or doms after training chest, in the upper chest area . i trained chest yesterday and did 30 degree bench ,incline dumbell press and dips and the next day all i feel is soreness in the lower to outer pec ,i never feel it in the upper pec and feel i am lacking in this area.im deffo gonna give decline a try and see if i can bring this area on !


----------



## Prodiver

jw007 said:


> Im going to try not to rant lol
> 
> Inclines\declines\flat press etc etc are all IMO total body exercises if done correctly, each bringing into play different areas of body to differing degrees depending on how movement is performed...
> 
> But all great IMO at stimulating pectoral development amongst other things...
> 
> What I do take issue with are CABLES as a mass builder..
> 
> Bag of sh1te.....
> 
> Patrick you have quoted late scott klein as favouring cables over other chest exercises...
> 
> Your argument is flawed...
> 
> Firstly, It annoys me the way people are quoting top guys routines and stating thay have good chests blah blah blah.
> 
> FACT is all decent pros, high level bodybuilders built the foundation of their physiques using the basic pressing routines.....
> 
> Only when super advnced have they then modified their routines to take into account their genetic differences and injurys and preferences..
> 
> If you said to me "scott klein built his chest on cables alone from a 1ost weakling" and could back this up, then sure your argument would hold weight
> 
> But no he built his pecs up using the basics and modified (if really did) late on in training.
> 
> I myself had nerve damage in my arms for 6 months, I built big arms using heavy basics, but for 6 months I could only do high rep partial cables for biceps...
> 
> They didnt grow but they didnt shrink either... So its easy to maintain mass once have, but building up with numpty sh1t does not work..
> 
> Back to your examples..
> 
> You have used yourself on numerous occasions and indeed used scott klein..
> 
> Well basically (no offence meant) have seen your pics and having seen you in person Patrick, you do not seem to me to have superior pec development in any way shape or form..
> 
> Sure your a big guy, no doubt, but your shoulders and arms far over power your pecs, The exact same way IMO scott kleins chest was a weak point..
> 
> Given your theory surely you should have a superior chest or at least on par with the rest of your body???
> 
> Now I will of course stand corrected if you can post some recent pics with your shirt off, pectoral muscles not covered by a vest to show your superior chest development obtained by cable isolation exercises???
> 
> Conversly, Myself I find has overpowering pectoral muscles (check out pic in my profile) yet I do no cables or decline whatsover......
> 
> I suggest to you, that CABLEs as a mass builder are as ineffective at builkding pecs as tricep kickbacks are for building triceps..
> 
> I will put myself online and offer up a competition or challenge to you...
> 
> You get some newbie trainer at your gym, and you do whatever you need to get him big, BUT you do not let him do any pressing movements for chest or delts as by your analogy (better ways isolating delts than shoulder pressing, so he can do lat raises) they are not isolating and not as effective..
> 
> I will do same inmy gym, give me 3 months, lets see who has the biggest progression of all round development in both pecs and delts:thumbup1:


Sigh! I do wish guys'd read exactly what I write...

I never said that Scott Klein favoured cables over other exercises - I'm sure that he didn't. I do know that he said he was very keen on them, always including them really heavy in his pec routine, and fvck me like most others I know I thought his pecs were pretty damn good!

There's a received wisdom that free weights and especially the classic presses are the great mass foundation builders - and with much justification, because of all the contributory muscles that are brought into play and the balance and control required.

This has also given rise to the belief that all weight machines are not great mass foundation builders - again with some justification because of the lack of control needed, though they can be good for isolation work.

However, there's one great limitation with free weights which caused Arthur Jones to develop the Nautilus machines: because of gravity, the forces free weights exert vary with the angle of the lift - for instance in flat flyes and pullovers they exert zero force on the pec when vertically above the torso.

Interestingly, this does not apply to cable machines. If you get your stance and the angle of the cable right, you can apply an increasing force, to the pecs for instance in cable crosses, which accords nicely with the fact that a muscle can exert its maximum force and be maximally stressed when fully contracted.

A force on a muscle is a force however it's produced, by free weights, springs, chocolate eclairs or via cables. If I impose a force of 120 kg on a muscle via a cable, it's no less valid than if I were directly lifting a free weight.

And of course cables have the advantage that apart from exerting continuous force they require balance and control and the use of contributory muscles too.

It's just that, unlike free weights, a cable's force doesn't always have to be vertically downward because of gravity.

As far as I'm concerned I have certainly not "used" myself as an example at all! I merely joked earlier if my 53" unpumped chest would "do". :laugh:

I have never claimed to have superior pec development and actually never feel my pecs are big enough - and btw you're the first to suggest my arms and shoulders "far" overpower my pecs. I feel now I should have concentrated less on flat benching and declines and done more cable crosses!

And I'll refrain from passing a personal comment on the relative overpowerment of your pecs, which hadn't occurred to me, or otherwise...

As for cultivating a newby trainer - fat chance - unless you know of someone and can take on the project?


----------



## hackskii

What if?

Next chest workout, I will focus only on inclines and see where in the chest the DOMS will be.

I will over train them to see just what muscles were targeted.

This would certainly amount to something.

But to be fair, next time I can focus on declines only and see where the DOMS will be.


----------



## liamhutch

phys sam said:


> Quick search on google came up with this re: motor units Tall. Here's the abstract. Remember it's only one study but....
> 
> Electromyographical Activity of the Pectoralis Muscle During Incline and Decline Bench Presses
> 
> Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research, 1997,11(3), 163-167
> 
> Stephen C. Glass and Ty Armstrong
> 
> The purpose of this study was to determine the relationship between motor unit recruitment within two areas of the pec-toralis major and two forms of bench press exercise. Fifteenyoung men experienced in weight lifting completed 6 repeti-tions of the bench press at incline and decline angles of +30 and-15° from horizontal, respectively. Electrodes were placed overthe pectoralis major at the 2nd and 5th intercostal spaces,midclavicular line. Surface electromyography was recorded andintegrated during the concentric (Con) and eccentric (Ecc) phasesof each repetition. Reliability of IEMG across repetitions was r= 0.87. Dependent means f-tests were used to examine motorunit activation for the lower (incline vs. decline) and upper pec-toral muscles. Results showed significantly greater lower pec-toral Con activation during decline bench press. The same re-sult was seen during the Ecc phase. No significant differenceswere seen in upper pectoral activation between incline and de-cline bench press. It is concluded there are variations in theactivation of the lower pectoralis major with regard to the angleof bench press, while the upper pectoral portion is unchanged.
> 
> I have not read this article and cannot vouch for methodological quality


best post so far... so the only problem i can see with decline is it may overdevelop the pectoralis major, giving the illusion of a small upper chest.

I feel inclines pump my upper chest more than declines, but from this thread i believe that must be due to the stretch, so it is not really for muscle building... HOWEVER, the pump CAN be a good thing, so maybe it would be of benefit to use an FST-7 style on inclines to get some upper chest fashia stretching, allowing greater growth in this area when using the declines for the mass building?


----------



## curtis1

Seems i have started quite a debate but i guess they only real way is to try it for yourself doesn't matter who wrote this or who said that, seems a lot of people have been training the same way (incline) for a long time surely a change to decline for a while is only going to be a good thing to keep the workouts different and shock maybe some different muscles..


----------



## 360evo

hackskii said:


> What if?
> 
> Next chest workout, I will focus only on inclines and see where in the chest the DOMS will be.
> 
> I will over train them to see just what muscles were targeted.
> 
> This would certainly amount to something.
> 
> But to be fair, next time I can focus on declines only and see where the DOMS will be.


I have experimented with this in the past, doing just Incline DB press (4 sets), and incline DB flyes (3 sets) for chest. DOMS the nexy day, to touch, was literally on the upper portion of my chest, and none on the lower.. Admittadely, during incline work, my anterior delts defiantly plays a big part in the movement, but i have no trouble at all getting a pump (again delts aswell as chest) Just my personal experience. :thumb:


----------



## Goose

Hackskii - I did this the other day due to lack of time in the gym.. Next day yes my chest was aching quite a bit but it was in the top left of my left pec and top right corner of my right pec (towards to delt) and my front deltoids were aching quite some bit aswell.. Feels like I've hit the delts to much and to be honest I only had a low incline of say 30 degrees..

Next time im going to try flat, decline and flys and just see if I get any doms in my upper chest.


----------



## Tinytom

I havent got time to read all this thread just now but heres my take on it.

All exercises have merit and the best bodybuilders will recruit a number of different angles to get the most out of their workouts and ultimately their bodies will respond.

My view on decline press is a dim one unfortunately because of the pressure it puts on the rear delts and rotator cuffs. Think of the way that the centre of gravity goes though the body and if you are a big guy then 100kg bench press putting pressure on the rotator is not good.

EVERY time I have done Decline Bench I ALWAYS get shoulder problems. Similar to Flat Bench press as the pressure on the shoulder is the same.

The only Bench exercise I can do without pain is Incline press but I do also incorporate crossovers and some work on Swiss ball with Dumbells to give more of a stretch.

Not blowing my own trumpet but I have one of the best chests in UK amateur bodybuilding so anyone that says that incline doesnt build chest is not doing it right.

Yes you get some recruitment from the shoulders but you'll also get recruitment from rear delts on decline as an antagonist.

No exercise is total isolation.

If I can also put something into perspective

Squats - Lower back, Glutes, Traps

Deads - Legs, Back, Arms, Traps

BB Row - Biceps, Hamstrings (stabiliser), Traps, Rear delts

Tricep Dip - Shoulders, Chest

Close grip Tricep Press - Chest

Standing Military Shoulder Press - Triceps, Traps, Legs, Back

All the above are arguably the best mass buidling exercises. They all recruit extra muscles.

Of course Decline Press recruits Triceps as well but if we are only to do exercises that target specific muscle groups (in theory) then theres going to be some very odd shaped bodybuilders out there.

Bodybuilding is about a complete physique and muscle tie ins between groups is an important factor on stage.

If you dont train your body to work the muscle groups together then it wont grow together and you're essentially cheating yourself out of gains.

All the theory in the world doesnt escape the fact that pretty much ALL pro bbers will use every exercise at some point in their development.

I've yet to meet a high level athlete that doesnt attribute some merit to Incline Press.

On a side note, its important to know exactly which muscle groups an exercise works. So yes the front delts do come into play on Incline press so you probably dont need to do loads of other exercises on front delts.


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## pastanchicken

Nice post Tom :thumbup1:


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## hackskii

That was a nice post.

I cant wait, I got one hour before I am going to destroy my upper chest. 

I will be doing bar, machine, and fly inclines.

On a side note, lets say you are doing dumbells, if you pronate your grip some, you focus more on the chest and less on the front delts.

I have used a non-burstable swiss ball for DB inclines and flat bench and to be honest I got pretty sore for what little weight I could use..

I do a set to failure on inclines then roll my body back and do a set to failure of flat DB bench, it works well.


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## liamhutch

pronate grip? is that palms facing hacks?


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## hackskii

liamhutch said:


> pronate grip? is that palms facing hacks?


No, about half way, this takes the front delts out of the equation alot.

Palms facing would be more for inner chest and more triceps, we dont want that either unless you want to do it that way....

My buddy does close grip BD presses with palms facing, he loves the isolation on the triceps this gives.


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## hackskii

6 sets DB inclines with a slightly pronated grip.

6 sets on incline machine.

I will tell you, the triceps seemed more fetigued......lol

I did way too much, and if I am not sore tomorrow I would be seriously surprised.


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## Ak_88

hackskii said:


> No, about half way, this takes the front delts out of the equation alot.
> 
> *Palms facing would be more for inner chest* and more triceps, we dont want that either unless you want to do it that way....


Personally don't agree with that bit - you can't target certain portions of the chest. But then again is it really worth me starting to flog this very dead horse again? :lol:


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## hackskii

Ak_88 said:


> Personally don't agree with that bit - you can't target certain portions of the chest. But then again is it really worth me starting to flog this very dead horse again? :lol:


Its ok, it isnt the grip that actually is doing it, this forces you with that grip to keep the elbo's closer to the body which switches from using more front delt, to more chest and more triceps.

Any time the arms have a 90 degree to the torso, this incourperates alot of shoulder work when pushing.

This is very similar to the wider the grip on bench, the more load on the front delts, and thus the narrower the grip the more incourperation of triceps and inner chest.

Check it out, do some really wide grip benches and tell me your front delts dont get bombed.

I have to lift this way because of my left shoulder, if I put it 90 degrees I cant push without pain in my shoulder, once I turn the DB's in some, pain and stress on the shoulder goes away.


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## Ak_88

Yeah that makes sense - less shoulder rotation during the lift means less stress on the joint i'd guess!


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## hackskii

Another example is reverse grip bench, that will hammer the hell out of your triceps, and you wont even feel it in the chest....lol


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## d4ead

Bah I missed a few pages there.


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## hackskii

Ok, reporting on the DOMS.

Actually the triceps are more sore than the chest which I didnt expect.

But there is only DOMS in the upper chest and some front delt, but most of the soreness is in the outer upper chest twards the front delt, there is pain just below the clavicle as well.

No lower chest is sore.

But the triceps are pretty much hammered.


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## Nine Pack

Jeez, and I thought I needed to get out more.....

Bottom line, your pecs serve one main (plus a couple of secondary ones) function, to draw the arms accross the torso, whichever position the shoulder is in (i.e: arms hanging the side or outstretched, it matters not). Most of the pec attaches on the sternum and inserts on the humerus. There is however a small portion of tissue that attaches on the* clavicle* & inserts on the humerus & this will give a degree of the bulk to the upper pec.

Stop over thinking it & just keep it varied. I have never been a fan of flat chest work due to the RC injury risk, but I don't think it's worth pontificating about which is most effective. Everyone is different & will respond to different things to different degrees. Play around & see what works for you but what works for one, may not work for you.


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## Keza2008

im sure doing decline press works upper chest.


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## Nine Pack

Keza2008 said:


> im sure doing decline press works upper chest.


It will to a degree, just as inclines will work some lower chest too. This is basically one muscle and you cannot possibly shift the emphasis totally onto one section. The body is a kinetic chain & simply will not allow such a specific portion of a muscle to work on it's own.

Like I say, I think you are all over thinking this thing way too much, and let's be honest here, to what end? In truth, when you actually watch someone do a decline press, and especially on an incline press, look at the angle of thier torso in relation to the floor. It's not that big a shift either way to make such a radical difference anyway.


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## Haimer

d4ead said:


> just about every weightlifting article ever writen. in fact your is the only post/thing i have ever read that promoted the decline instead.
> 
> interesting.


To be fair Prodiver is right. I haven't had a look at the rest of thread but will do in a minute - decline works the upper chest. I think it's Jay Cutler - Jay To Z that also promotes decline for upper chest. I do flat bench, flat flyes and incline most weeks but on the occasions I do decline bench this is when my upper pec looks the best.


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## Nine Pack

Haimer said:


> To be fair Prodiver is right. I haven't had a look at the rest of thread but will do in a minute - decline works the upper chest. I think it's Jay Cutler - Jay To Z that also promotes decline for upper chest. I do flat bench, flat flyes and incline most weeks but on the occasions I do decline bench this is when my upper pec looks the best.


And yet you still continue doing something you admit to being inferior (flat chest work)?.... :confused1: Think about it.


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## dingosteve

gona get a wooden box made at work for bench at home so i can do declines, any idea of optimum angle to hit the top of chest ?


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## Goose

Well last night I did chest and all I did was flat barbell and incline dumbells.. I get a huge pump from the flat barbell..

The incline dumbells though just ruined my shoulders!! More than anything! Yet my training partner doesn't seem to be affect in the shoulder area.. And its not like my technique is poor

I think its just different for everyone


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## LunaticSamurai

fxleisure said:


> Chest training - by Dorian Yates !
> 
> Q | I've been training for four years straight. I weigh 190 pounds and can bench 315 pounds, which people tell me is pretty good. But my chest isn't growing the way I think it should. How can I spark some life into my pecs?
> 
> A | More than anything, you may need to make a mental adjustment before you can get your chest to start growing. Right off the bat, you wrote how much you can bench press. That's fine if you're looking to be a powerlifter, but for bodybuilding purposes, the weight you can bench is pretty much irrelevant.
> 
> I've seen so many trainers get caught up in the hype of the big bench. It's almost like an addiction for some. They call themselves bodybuilders, yet the first thing they do on chest day is run to the flat bench and pile on as much weight as they can, regardless of their ability to use proper form. I can certainly understand the appeal of being strong and of besting your last workout, but never at the expense of the true goal of any bodybuilder, which is building muscle.
> 
> I don't even include flat benching in my pec routine, because I think it stresses the front deltoids far too much to be an effective exercise for building the chest. Also, the angle of the flat bench press puts the pec tendons in a vulnerable position. Many torn pecs in bodybuilding have been the result of heavy flat bench presses.
> 
> So what do I do for chest? My chest routine comprises four exercises, which together hit the pecs from every angle required to ensure total development.
> 
> *My first exercise is incline barbell presses. I feel that pressing on an incline as well as on a decline allows a better range of movement than flat bench presses.* The angle of the bench should be low--about 30 degrees. Some people don't have the range of motion in their shoulders to come all of the way down to the upper chest when performing these, whether it's due to a structural limitation or an injury. If this is your case, don't force the issue. Come down as far as you can without doing damage to your shoulder joints. Keep the bar under control at all times, making sure to forcefully squeeze your pecs at the top of the movement.
> 
> From inclines, I move on to Hammer Strength seated bench presses. I've gone into detail recently in this column as to why I like Hammer Strength machines so much. Suffice to say they will serve your chest-building needs far better than barbell flat bench presses. You can really feel the burn at the top of this movement and get a great stretch in the pecs at the bottom without having to worry about getting stuck under the weight.
> 
> Next up are incline dumbbell flyes, which work the middle and outer pecs. Again, keep about a 30-degree incline to the bench and make sure you concentrate on using strict form. It's not about the weight here. Imagine you are hugging a tree, and keep your arms locked in that position throughout the movement.
> 
> Finally, I do a single set of cable crossovers. This exercise isn't essential for beginners and intermediate bodybuilders, but it's a nice way to impart an extra burn to the pecs at the end of the workout.
> 
> Remember, bodybuilding is supposed to be about quality, not quantity. If you concentrate on quality in your training, the quantity will soon follow.
> 
> Just incase you think I modified the article
> 
> here it is http://www.dorianyates.net/dorian/site/showthread.php?t=593


This is a good thread, with some good info, however, i have got to disagree with losing inclines.

The above quote is one reason, another is what i feel in the gym

also the reason that incline are done, for seperation not mass, and this;

Whenever i need to look something up about lifting my steps are to wiki it, (crap resource i know) research forums and look through my Encyclopedia of Modern Bodybuilding By Arnie.

First published in 1985, at a time when alot of hype and rubbish was not around (not saying it didn't exsist) but i do rely alot on this book.

This is what Arnie says about Inclines;

"Changing the angle of the bench press- by doing it on an incline, for example-youtransfer more of the effort rom the middle pectorals to the upper pectorals and front deltoids. I believe in including inlcine presses in your program right from the beggining so that you dont find that your upper pecs are underdeveloped, relative to the middle and lower portions of your chest;

Also, doing a lot of incline presses will help you to create that split between upper and lower chest that is so impressive in most muscular poses" Insert images are of Arnie doing inlcine presses with bar.

Research can give you greater knowledge than just agreing with someone and not finding out for your self. I have researched, theory and practical and can say that i will be sticking with inclines as well as flat and decline.


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