# Extreme Eating for Mass



## wogihao

Extreme Eating for Mass

By Jason Mueller

Bodybuilders are constantly in search of substances that will increase anabolism. We take our creatine, glutamine, pyruvate, and a host of other nutritional supplements in our quest for more muscle. Bodybuilders who choose to go the "enhanced" route are always searching for the anabolic drug that will take their physique to the next level. With all of the means at our disposal to increase muscular bodyweight, one simple fact often gets overlooked. Food is the most anabolic substance we can put in our bodies.

What separates pro-bodybuilders from the rest of us? I know that people like to engage in discussions about aesthetics, muscle maturity, and symmetry. However, it's painfully obvious that the primary difference is muscular size. It's amusing for me to hear competitors talk about how great their symmetry is despite the fact that they don't have enough muscle to win a local qualifier. Muscular size is the primary indicator of success in bodybuilding competition. With regular certainty, the largest man on stage wins the show.

Over the past several years, there has been a push inside the supplement industry towards low-calories mass building. We've seen "lean-mass" products appear on the market, with all of the major supplements companies like Met-RX and EAS advocating their MRP's as a way to add lean tissue without gaining additional fat. It is no longer en vogue to bulk-up in the off-season, the industry line that is touted in the magazines these days is that athletes rarely stray too far from their contest bodyweights. With the advent of these new nutritional technologies, it is now possible to be both massively muscled and lean at all times. Horse****!!!

The truth is that the pictures seen in the various bodybuilding publications are all taken immediately before or after contests. It is not uncommon to see a bodybuilder put on 20+ lbs the day after a contest! Most bodybuilding aficionados don't have the slightest idea of what these athletes look like 95% of the year. It's mistakenly assumed that these guys always look fairly lean and chiseled. Nothing could be further from the truth.

By attempting to stay lean year-round, you are sabotaging your goals to become as muscular as humanly possible. Athletes who constantly chase more muscle while worrying about body fat levels will never gain the muscle they need to achieve their goals. Let's consider this question: Which is harder to build, fat or muscle? Obviously, muscle. Next question. Which is easier to lose, fat or muscle? For those of you that said muscle, sorry, wrong answer, thanks for playing. Once muscle is built it's a fairly easy proposition to maintain it while dieting off body fat.

I honestly can't fault anyone for following these "lean mass" programs. Being bloated and fat in the off-season isn't any fun. If any of you have had the chance to see Lee Priest in the off-season, you'll know what I mean. The man is nearly unrecognizable from the contest and ad pictures we constantly see in the various publications. Lee doesn't get just a little heavy, he gets fat. It don't think he would be offended if I say he looks like a lop of ****. However, when the fat comes off, and it surely does every year, Lee's physique is amazing. If you talk to Lee, and ask him what his secret to success is, he'll tell you. It's food.

So, why all the secrecy and smoke and mirrors surrounding the nutritional profiles of these athletes? One simple reason. Money. Money from endorsements, contracts, and ad work. Say I'm an up and coming national level bodybuilder. I'm eating over 7,000 calories a day. In order to do this, I'm consuming a lot of fatty foods, hell, I'm eating McDonalds and ice cream as much as possible. Why? Because I cannot physically consume that level of caloric intake in clean, low-fat foods. It cannot be done. However, do the supplement companies want their customers to know this? Of course not. Look, it's an accepted premise that all national and professional level bodybuilders take steroids, right? However, it's something that's never discussed in the supplement industry, and bodybuilders get paid to endorse products. So, they lie. My success is based largely on the fact that I use XYZ Protein. I was able to compete 20 lb heavier at this year's Mr. O because I was taking Sportgear prohormones. Whatever. My point isn't that nutritional supplements don't have their place, they certainly do. My point is that professional bodybuilders are used because there is a large segment of the population that would like to emulate that look. If they can be made to believe that look is obtained through clean eating and sports supplements, who's hurt, right?

I've seen so many genetically gifted bodybuilders fail in the quest to achieve greatness. 9 times out of 10 the culprit is nutrition. Specifically, the problem is not consuming enough calories. I can't tell you how many times I've had an athlete come to me who has hit a plateau. I modify their nutrition slightly and they are growing again. People, you are not going to achieve brutal muscle size on 3,500 kcal a day!! I don't care what anyone else tells you, I've seen it fail and I know it doesn't work. All successful national and professional level bodybuilders eat all day long. In the off-season their only concern is getting those meals in and eating enough protein. Anyone can train intensely given the right circumstances and knowledge. Any fool can jab themselves with steroids. However, there are very few people in the sport of bodybuilding that are consistently able, day in and day out, to eat their 6-8 meals a day and consume enough calories to reach anabolic extreme.

What are your goals as a bodybuilder? Is it your goal to have an aesthetically pleasing physique, staying relatively lean year round? Or is it to carry as much muscle as your genetic potential will allow? One goal is not nobler than the other, but they certainly require different strategies. While it is possible to stay relatively lean year round once a desired level of muscle has been achieved, it is not possible to do this while trying to gain the muscle initially. Unless extraordinary circumstances are present, muscle cannot be added and fat lost at the same time!! The conditions necessary for this to happen are so rare and require so many drugs that it's not worthy of discussion in this article. Muscle is gained by eating over and above what is required for maintenance. Fat is lost by eating less than what is required for maintenance. It's virtually impossible to gain muscle without adding some concomitant fat, conversely, it's almost impossible to lose fat without losing concomitant muscle tissue. These are the irrefutable facts.

We see a lot of huge professional bodybuilders in the off-season that would not be characterized as "fat" in the normal sense of the word. They are fat only by bodybuilding standards. Last Saturday I was lucky enough to see Ronnie Coleman in Sacramento, CA. Ronnie competes close to 260 lbs at a height of about 5'10". When I saw him, he was weighing in at about 305 lb still appearing to be fairly lean, just weeks after his wins at some major European shows. The whole time I was at this event, Ronnie was eating. Burgers, fries, you name it, he ate it. In a few months, he should well over 320, eating everything in site in his attempt to add more muscle. This is 60+ lb over his competition bodyweight. It's also what is necessary to continue to grow.

Dorian is one of the people responsible for the new era of freakiness seen in bodybuilding today. I was fortunate enough to see Dorian a few times in the off-season during his competitive heyday. I was able to sit and have lunch with Dorian through a friend of mine immediately after he announced his retirement from competition. Among the myriad of subjects that were discussed, off-season nutrition certainly was one of the most interesting. Does anyone remember the 1995 Night of Champions when Dorian guest-posed at roughly 300 lbs? That was nearly unheard of at the time. Many said that he was too fat and out of shape and that would never come be able to come down for the O. Not only did Dorian lose the weight, he crushed his competition. Dorian's philosophy was that his off-season appearance was inconsequential. What mattered was what he looked like when he stepped on stage. During the off-season, his nutrition centered around two simple factors: total caloric intake and total protein intake. Nothing else mattered


----------



## gym rat

brilliant read wogi


----------



## wogihao

Yes I like this article alot.

I read it before but yesterday I was watching the nasser dvd and it showed his diet. Totaly mental. your talking 12,000 callories on a light day and 15,000 on a heavy one.

"I goto pancake house for lunch for extra meal, and in the afternoon McDonalds."


----------



## gym rat

what are your own opinions on this mate, i think it is abit extreme to bring your weight that high eating ****e? would it not be just as good eating a very clean but high calorie meal so many times a day?


----------



## wogihao

If im honest with you, It depends on your goals and how much your willing to go through.

I hope to gain as much mass as possible hopefully if i trained corectly and all other factors are in place some of that will be muscle.

My diet in my log is the honest one, I never felt the need to lie about what I ate I thought it was better to be honest about these things (as i dont have sponsorship - why bother lying about Meal replacement shakes ect).

Most days I eat some junk, my fav is choclate gataue that stuff tastes fantastic and is very high in calloires. The polish sausages & perogi are full of calllories and protien/fats. there is hardly any fiber because it is useless in a bulking diet (why waste the space in your digestion for fiber when you could have high callorie food stuff like protiens/fats/carbs.

In adition to this your often notice I eat lots of rice/pasta thats good because it makes you thirsty and that meens more callories in the gullet.

My biggest problem is i cant eat realy sickly sweet foods except in cake form (I hate candy bars ect). This would be a weapon of choice if i could stand them.

I also drink alot of stuff like fruit juces that are concentrate, this is also full of callorie and tastes very nice and has alot of nutrients.

I also drink alot of callorie all day, I like warm ribena as its another very high callorie drink - coke is also good for this but the downside is that gas bloats my stomach even with pro peptides & pro biotics to control my digestion/bloat.

When I got to over 100kg my flexability was totaly shot due to various factors but literaly i needed help putting my shoes on (i have short arms). I couldnt scratch my neck. Bathing was hell it was like being a child again. Luckly I had the help of my wife and when i was out and about my friends to help me with coats and things.

This time hopefully i can get past 115kg then cut down to 100kg with a acceptable bf%.


----------



## gym rat

cheers mate, good post


----------



## MXD

Lol I do love that post.

Lets just say its not a good idea for the 140lb n00b to start eating cakes and chocolate all day log...


----------



## brickhoused

Great read Wogi!


----------



## 13stonetarget

Nice post, but surely eating like that isn't good for your health... Regular insulin spikes etc... ?


----------



## wogihao

13stonetarget said:


> Nice post, but surely eating like that isn't good for your health... Regular insulin spikes etc... ?


When you think how the average person eats, its not so diffrent your just eating like a Texan thats all.

Yes long term there could be health issues if you did that for years and years but unless your very unlucky I dont see how doing it for a short time could hurt you.

I think this is where the confusion comes in the diet in itself is not healthy however health is sacrificed as its the only real way to pack on the mass without takeing alot of other risks in diffrent areas.

Its not ment to be a health & wellness diet, its for gaining as much mass as possible to meet a objective that you want to be bigger than when you started. If you want to have a mens health look then you need a diffrent aproach but infact if you were strict enough with your cut after, this aproach is sound for even this look (however I think its unessary for that level of mass).

I meen past a certain point all that extra mass isnt healthy anway the human body wasnt suposed to carry around 100lbs of extra muscle.


----------



## 13stonetarget

Sure, totally agree


----------



## brickhoused

wogihao said:


> When you think how the average person eats, its not so diffrent your just eating like a Texan thats all.
> 
> Yes long term there could be health issues if you did that for years and years but unless your very unlucky I dont see how doing it for a short time could hurt you.
> 
> I think this is where the confusion comes in the diet in itself is not healthy however health is sacrificed as its the only real way to pack on the mass without takeing alot of other risks in diffrent areas.
> 
> Its not ment to be a health & wellness diet, its for gaining as much mass as possible to meet a objective that you want to be bigger than when you started. If you want to have a mens health look then you need a diffrent aproach but infact if you were strict enough with your cut after, this aproach is sound for even this look (however I think its unessary for that level of mass).
> 
> I meen past a certain point all that extra mass isnt healthy anway the human body wasnt suposed to carry around 100lbs of extra muscle.


Exactly, building huge amounts of sheer muscle is by no means natural, but is what the sport is about.


----------



## tony1401

after reading that, i now fancy 2 quarter-pounders with cheese meals and a large vanilla shake..


----------



## cyberheater

Yes but surely it's a gradual process to build up to that over the years.

If your 80kg and look like a stick then you'll not be doing yourself a favour by consuming 14,000 Cals a day.

If your 120Kg then it makes more sense.


----------



## wogihao

True Im not saying do 15,000 cals straight off the bat, thats what a man that competed at 265-280lbs did.

For a average guy (say 5ft 8" @ 91kg) if you take around 7k-8k then its a similar result, I guess you would need to experement to find the good balance.

The smaller guy you just taper it down - like for a 56kg guy 3k of callories is masive lol.

I would still think its better to get a bit of fat to have to trim off in your prep then spend a year spinning your wheels. Also from a competitive point of view if your going to lean bulk and maby gain a few lbs in a year your more than likely going to come up against someone who has followed this aproach and alough they gained a significant amount off fat conversly will have more lean body mass come show time (assuming that the contest prep was ok).


----------



## cyberheater

But surely you should be able to reach a balance where you eat what you require so that you don't put on excessive fat.

It seems to me that putting on a 50lb of fat over a year just to trim it off is using a rather blunt instrument to achieve your goals.

Is there anyone that got fairly massive and managed to stay lean all year around?


----------



## robdog

I think the point here guys is the fact that say a 300+ lb bodybuilder off season would have a hard time getting enough clean cals down his necks to actually gain muscle as obvioulsy the bigger you get the more cals you need.


----------



## wogihao

cyberheater said:


> But surely you should be able to reach a balance where you eat what you require so that you don't put on excessive fat.
> 
> It seems to me that putting on a 50lb of fat over a year just to trim it off is using a rather blunt instrument to achieve your goals.
> 
> Is there anyone that got fairly massive and managed to stay lean all year around?


Everyone used to do it like this, It was just never talked about. Sure you might have one or two freaks that stay lean all year round but then why do pro's take 16-22 weeks to geat ready for a contest?

Small people buy the majority of suplements rember you have to create a need for these products, the big man is not going to sit there thinking "where is the next wonder product from BSN or Cell tech to get me huge?" they would just contiue doing what they were doing.

Your body likes to create a blance, its not designed to add mass not after a certain point and if you are lean thats a indication that theres not enough callories for your body to think "yes theres food a-plenty lets build some muscle." rather its probably thinking "damm i have been eating like karen carpenter, better stay lean and hope for a better harvest next time.."

I meen the guys that stay lean year round are on the whole either going nowhere, or having to use masive amounts of the suplements that dare not speak to maintain that mass in a callorie deficent state/base line state.

Like yea sure you can maintain like that but to buld new muscle I think it takes a excess of callories and alot of protien. I dont have any studies to back that up but it seems good common sence. (bro theory has my back.)

To go back to your orignal point how many truely masive guys have you or any of us seen? very few people get that far. And to be sure its not the guy takeing the MRD and clocking 3k of calloires (or 5k of internet calls). And its unfortunatly ususaly the guys you never expected and you know why because they were too stuborn/stupid to take in the BS from the magazines. So they just continued doing there own thing and got massive inspite of the current advertiseing.


----------



## Tall

Lol @ 5k of Internet kCals.

I never beleive peoples diets that they post. As they are always a best day scenario.

What might be done Monday to Friday will rarely be done over a weekend...

Lads I know who bulk are bulking at around 7kcals, but I'd guess don't get *that much* above 15% bodyfat in the off season.

Wogi a question for you - do you beleive the diet posted above is for PED users only...?


----------



## wogihao

TH&S said:


> Lol @ 5k of Internet kCals.
> 
> I never beleive peoples diets that they post. As they are always a best day scenario.
> 
> What might be done Monday to Friday will rarely be done over a weekend...
> 
> Lads I know who bulk are bulking at around 7kcals, but I'd guess don't get *that much* above 15% bodyfat in the off season.
> 
> Wogi a question for you - do you beleive the diet posted above is for PED users only...?


Honestly I dont know

The process is much more efective I would speculate with PEDs. The cut most certainly would be much better if you were assisted because you would maintain more lean body mass and probably push the balance even further in favour of fat burning.

Also consider that most people are at that stage either kidding themselves or useing.

I meen its also the mindset, a natural training is going to be more risk adverse I would speculate so probably this aproach would not be his ideal method. Also the odds natural loseing that much fat that quickly without quite a lot of lean body mass are against you. But no doubt its been done.

This is a true natural, not a pro-hormone/designer steriod poping/suspension useing/insulin hgh freak. 

obviously for the "neo-natural" its far less risky aproach.

but all this is speculation.

I would have thought that the diet assumed PED use as its the ones the pros use.


----------



## Tall

Natty dieting I think it going to be much slower. I'm sure Fivos said dieting takes him 20 weeks.

Then again I'd guess most nattys would be quite happy being strong and lean-ish all year round, knowing that they really need to take it up to the next step to gain proper mass.

Or just train solidly for 20years.


----------



## Guest

MXD said:


> Lol I do love that post.
> 
> Lets just say its not a good idea for the 140lb n00b to start eating cakes and chocolate all day log...


Its also not a good idea for 140lb noob to be injecting a couple of grams of gear and lots hgh 

One of my fav articles wogi deffo has its merits i know my own little "extreem eating" last year brought a new size to my body and i will probably do it again in the winter.

TH+S i have to laugh at your diet comment as i know its very true even for my self VERY VERY VERY few people actually eat the same thing every day in the same amounts as they state on threads i know some do and more power to them but i dont i do stay within the macro nutrient range but i like a little variety.........and the odd mac d excursion:rolleyes: :blowme:

And about natty dieting for 20 weeks my diet will have been around 20 weeks also and i didnt start sloppy as such but perhaps it all goes back to the mac d comment pmsl


----------



## wogihao

Oh yea your get a guy on the monday he will stuff himself probably will get 5k callories but come tuesday hes still full so he will get at most 2k wednesday hes still got the ebby jibbis but trys hard and manages 3.5k. this then contiues untill friday when he goes out on the ****, drinks around 2.5k callories from stella then spends the rest of the weekend in a drink induced stupor so 0callories there...

and then sunday he resolves to do better next week...

Thus monday he hits his 5k call target and the cycle starts again.


----------



## Tall

Lol.

My diet is 95% of what I claim it is. But I only claim it to be correct Monday to Friday when I'm in the office.

Saturday and Sunday I shoot for whatever I need to - be it a refeed, or just making sure I get a decent feed.

With all the running about I have to do on a weekend eating every 3 hours as I do Monday to Friday *AND* having a life simply isn't possible...

I reckon Sat & Sunday I get 4 solid meals in. And the odd shake. One meal is normally a huge massive one.

Like ordering 2 or 3 portions in Frankie and Bennies on a Saturday afternoon after training legs


----------



## wogihao

my diet is fairly free form, i just have to keep eating thats the downside. your find yourself eating every couple of hours at least. Thats very limiting unless you like visiting resturants. I just take my food with me or raid the friends fridges. (not a **** refrence - food related lol).


----------



## Pompey Tim

Good article Wogi, reminds me of a quote I read on T-Nation which went something like " Thats why its called 'bulking', not 'delicately adding mass' ".

I have to say though, I have tried the mega calories approach, and although I did gain well on it, I was always a bit uneasy about what the sugar and fats were doing to my health generally.


----------



## DB

interesting.. funny enough i had been telling myself this offseason i really need to increase my calories...


----------



## wogihao

Its not as fun as it sounds, it gets old very quickly. even if its your fav foods.

Haha but yea point taken about the sugar/fats but then again its short term.

I would rather be doing that then doing some crazy cycle to acheve the same goal i guess.


----------



## cyberheater

Personally, I'm going to get to my six pack and then not worry about food again. That's not the same as eating crap, but i've spent far to much time checking labels etc...

I'll still eat 6 or 7 small meals/snacks a day and i'll ensure each one contains around 20gr of protein but apart from that, it's gonna be free flow for me.

If I start putting on fat again then i'll adjust or do more cardio. Because, to be honest, Its starting to get a bit obsessional for me at the mo and the stuff I posted in my food log was 100% accurate. (which i've stopped for now 'cause I'm sick of it.)

(Mini rant over)


----------



## DB

Cyber said:


> I'll still eat 6 or 7 small meals/snacks a day and i'll ensure each one contains around 20gr of protein but apart from that, it's gonna be free flow for me.


so u eat 120g protein a day??


----------



## cyberheater

DB said:


> so u eat 120g protein a day??


Actually. Probably around 150gr a day which isn't much compared to what you guys are eating but I'm sure I read that the human body has a hard time absorbing more then around 20gr at any one sitting and maybe double that post workout.


----------



## Magic Torch

I think its down to the person really....I mean if you eat all your kals in **** food in a day your body is gonna be full of salt, high colersterol, saturated fats etc etc. I think that the off season bodybuilder will still have a good base diet, eg a decent protein carb meal before they train and before bed and at brekkie, just to add the extra cals eat some **** in the day, like the reference to pankcakes for a second lunch (first one being a good meal)...

I dont stick to my diet at the weekend, i'll eat anything, but I make sure that I have a few good meals and whey/oat shakes....

Its a good article.


----------



## xplosivefibres

is there not a cut of point to where your body adds muscle and then adds muscle/fat??

i know for one if i was to do that 150000kcal diet id be a ballon and from dropping 7 stone for my last comp, i can tell ya its harsh as **** on muscle loss, well for me it was anyway since it was my first time

whats your opinions on staying lean year round??


----------



## wogihao

xplosivefibres said:


> is there not a cut of point to where your body adds muscle and then adds muscle/fat??
> 
> i know for one if i was to do that 150000kcal diet id be a ballon and from dropping 7 stone for my last comp, i can tell ya its harsh as **** on muscle loss, well for me it was anyway since it was my first time
> 
> whats your opinions on staying lean year round??


Depends if you have reached what you consider to be a good place for you body wise then I can see no reasion not to. I just dont see how you can get more mass that way without useing a ton of meds unless your very lucky or super anal about your diet - yea it could probably be done if you had a boffin planning your diet ect but how many of us have access to a good nutritionist (spelling).

For me I just cant take the risk that im wrong and spend a year "lean bulking" im long in the tooth already and hopefully will be out in 5-7 years so I need every month to be a productive one.

So my take would be go with what you know - Its asured that mass can be gained useing the bulk method so I would go with the bankable gains.

Like I said before unless your competeing at 240-280lbs theres not a need to go to 12k-15k callories, the aproach is scaleable relative to your compition weight. That said I dont know a clear cut chart for this thats somthing that needs further study.


----------



## warren

im upping my kcal intake at the moment to 4300 at 79kg, 5'11''. and i do actually eat the same ting day in day out. i was talking to thas about this. but i do it due to having a weak sensitive stomach, i fee sick and naucious very easy. so i eat the same tings so my stomac gets use to it. with the exeption if 1 meal on a sat where i take the gf out, which funny enough is usually the same thing each week aswell carbonara ( but thats the same as i love the stuff)

i wonder how you would have any time t do anything bar eat with that many kcals, like i said i have a weak stomach so it takes me ages to eat a meal.


----------



## wogihao

Im lucky in that my job gives me lots of time for eating, buy your assumtion is correct I spend most of my time sat down stuffing my face as like you I have a sensitive stomach and weak apetite so I need to take time to eat/drink stuff.

I found that when I tryed to eat large meal, my stomach became bloated. when I spaced the meals out even more I was able to consume everything have no bloat and also most importantly increase the uptake of nutrents to my body because if you eat to much at once theres only so much your stomach can process effectivly. Thus a masive meal alot of the nutrients will be shat out the other end without your body getting a look in.

The most important thing is to make your digestion as effecient as possible so that all the food your putting down your gullet is processed with the greatest possible effecency. This for me any is still largely a mystery but one way I found that help was pro-biotics/pro-peptide suplements this will also greatly enhance your appetite as well and reduceing the bloat from digestion.

I found the pro-biotics/pro-peptides to be the most important of all suplements.


----------



## xplosivefibres

wogihao said:


> Im lucky in that my job gives me lots of time for eating, buy your assumtion is correct I spend most of my time sat down stuffing my face as like you I have a sensitive stomach and weak apetite so I need to take time to eat/drink stuff.
> 
> I found that when I tryed to eat large meal, my stomach became bloated. when I spaced the meals out even more I was able to consume everything have no bloat and also most importantly increase the uptake of nutrents to my body because if you eat to much at once theres only so much your stomach can process effectivly. Thus a masive meal alot of the nutrients will be shat out the other end without your body getting a look in.
> 
> The most important thing is to make your digestion as effecient as possible so that all the food your putting down your gullet is processed with the greatest possible effecency. This for me any is still largely a mystery but one way I found that help was pro-biotics/pro-peptide suplements this will also greatly enhance your appetite as well and reduceing the bloat from digestion.
> 
> I found the pro-biotics/pro-peptides to be the most important of all suplements.


how many pounds do you feel comfortable gaining a week??

any pro-biotic/pro-peptide supps u reccomend. I eat on average 5-6 out of 7 whole meals and maybe 1 or 2 shake type meals a day. worried i might be eating a bit too much food. tbh i think i could get away with mroe shakes n stuff because the protein from all those foods ant goina be all used up, all i needs the calories which i could get from shakes n stuff (would be cheaper and more cost effective instead of wasiting food, what ya think??)


----------



## wogihao

I just went with the cheapest one that had the most bactera.

confortable weight gain i recon a between 3lbs-5lbs a week i guess.

I know you can do more but I dont think its so usefull beyond a certain point.

I take acidophilus with my meals.

Acidophilus Tablets http://www.simplysupplements.net/product_info.php?products_id=71&osCsid=d06bbbdae6d68616947e005520ccc378

I think its very good.


----------



## xplosivefibres

wogihao said:


> I just went with the cheapest one that had the most bactera.
> 
> confortable weight gain i recon a between 3lbs-5lbs a week i guess.
> 
> I know you can do more but I dont think its so usefull beyond a certain point.
> 
> I take acidophilus with my meals.
> 
> Acidophilus Tablets http://www.simplysupplements.net/product_info.php?products_id=71&osCsid=d06bbbdae6d68616947e005520ccc378
> 
> I think its very good.


cheers mate will have a nosey, im obssed now with tryin to gain aroun 1-2lb a week, any more im either cuttin back slighlty or maybe addin in a bit of cardio (500kcals max per week). i use my strength as an indicator, if im weaker eat more but usually weight is creeping up, when it stalls i know to increase. i dont wanna gain a mass of fat again, after dietin down 7 stone for my show it really dawned on me how harsh it is on muscle. SERIOUS!

do you do cardio on top of your eating as well?


----------



## xplosivefibres

wogihao said:


> I just went with the cheapest one that had the most bactera.
> 
> confortable weight gain i recon a between 3lbs-5lbs a week i guess.
> 
> I know you can do more but I dont think its so usefull beyond a certain point.
> 
> I take acidophilus with my meals.
> 
> Acidophilus Tablets http://www.simplysupplements.net/product_info.php?products_id=71&osCsid=d06bbbdae6d68616947e005520ccc378
> 
> I think its very good.


cheers mate will have a nosey, im obssed now with tryin to gain aroun 1-2lb a week, any more im either cuttin back slighlty or maybe addin in a bit of cardio (500kcals max per week). i use my strength as an indicator, if im weaker eat more but usually weight is creeping up, when it stalls i know to increase. i dont wanna gain a mass of fat again, after dietin down 7 stone for my show it really dawned on me how harsh it is on muscle. SERIOUS!

do you do cardio on top of your eating as well?


----------



## wogihao

xplosivefibres said:


> cheers mate will have a nosey, im obssed now with tryin to gain aroun 1-2lb a week, any more im either cuttin back slighlty or maybe addin in a bit of cardio (500kcals max per week). i use my strength as an indicator, if im weaker eat more but usually weight is creeping up, when it stalls i know to increase. i dont wanna gain a mass of fat again, after dietin down 7 stone for my show it really dawned on me how harsh it is on muscle. SERIOUS!
> 
> do you do cardio on top of your eating as well?


Ah yea someone told me about your bulking before i think very impressive you certainly can bulk!

Yea i do cardio, I like keeping the old ticker as healthy as i possibly can plus I found that it helped with stuff like stairs, walking about ect. That said its not masive I do some swimming, I walk to and from my job every day (thats about 40 mins total).

I found it helps my apetite as well, if i do the first cardio on a empty stomach im hungry all day..


----------



## xplosivefibres

wogihao said:


> Ah yea someone told me about your bulking before i think very impressive you certainly can bulk!
> 
> Yea i do cardio, I like keeping the old ticker as healthy as i possibly can plus I found that it helped with stuff like stairs, walking about ect. That said its not masive I do some swimming, I walk to and from my job every day (thats about 40 mins total).
> 
> I found it helps my apetite as well, if i do the first cardio on a empty stomach im hungry all day..


well to be honest i dont know if id like to go back to that weight, was strong as a bull!!! was a heavy fella although u wouldnt a taekn me for near 20 stone, but again i did feel lathargic all the time and alot of lower back pains e.t.c

after the show now im tryin to pack it on lean, only startin to look god in these last 2 weeks after the show lol. nightmare!!

def think im goina incorpate cardio in at one AM session 25mins and two post workout session 15 mins just for health benigifts as you say. if my wiehgts affected by them ill just eat more. dont thnk 500kcal per week wil have much of an effect on my mass building


----------



## wogihao

xplosivefibres said:


> well to be honest i dont know if id like to go back to that weight, was strong as a bull!!! was a heavy fella although u wouldnt a taekn me for near 20 stone, but again i did feel lathargic all the time and alot of lower back pains e.t.c
> 
> after the show now im tryin to pack it on lean, only startin to look god in these last 2 weeks after the show lol. nightmare!!
> 
> def think im goina incorpate cardio in at one AM session 25mins and two post workout session 15 mins just for health benigifts as you say. if my wiehgts affected by them ill just eat more. dont thnk 500kcal per week wil have much of an effect on my mass building


Yea deffo, spitting the cardio should make it more effective I think, you got all them groovy metabolic responces to cardio going on 2x per day It has to be good.


----------



## xplosivefibres

wogihao said:


> Yea deffo, spitting the cardio should make it more effective I think, you got all them *groovy metabolic responces* to cardio going on 2x per day It has to be good.


 :lol:


----------



## wogihao

About the scaleing for diffrent weight, I found a good guide from a article that Gavin Kane wrote...



> The best way to achieve this is to take in a total daily calorie intake of 30 kcals per pound of bodyweight for ectomorphs, 25 kcals for mesomorphs, and 20 for endomorphs


Now he recons that you pick a weight and then calculate your callorie needs *as if you were that weight already...*

that said the problem comes when mr muscle at 120lbs wants to be 280lbs...

I would say pick a sensible weight gain (<40lbs above your current weight) and then do that. odds are if its more than this, initaly your weight gain is going to be alot of fat (theres just not the lean body mass at the begining to make use of all the nuturents, as you get more lean body mass your nutrition requirements will take more of the free nuturents and less will be used for fat..)


----------



## ba baracuss

Interesting, but confusing article.

Wogihao - can you, or anyone else, please explain how massive overeating a described here aids muscle growth?

I'm not disputing it, I'm just struggling to comprehend how/why the body puts on more muscle when drowned in fat and crap calories.

I purposely don't eat desserts and sweet stuff in general because it's crap food, but it seems from this article and thread that it's a good idea.

I try to eat protein in most meals and generally eat fairly clean. That doesn't add up to an enormous calorie intake but muscle needs protein to grow and carbs to fuel that growth, and some fats but not too many, and of the right sort.

I'm wondering if I'm missing a trick now.


----------



## cellaratt

How the fcuk do I eat 5000 cal a day without having to eat 10 full meals a day ?


----------



## wogihao

Hmm.. An intresting question that goes to the heart of why a lean bulk rarely will work without the addition of alot of meds or genetic ubermenchen hood.

The reasion it works is because you have to convince your body that food its plentyfull, once it realises this it kicks back and relaxes and does some groovy things that it wouldnt usualy do. It will add muscle tissue provided that there is the need created through exersise because it figures that it can afford to make extra muscle tissue because theres so much protien and callories around to cover the basics of survival and maintenence.

when you lean bulk its such a thin line between just maintaining your existing mass the body rarely kicks back and gives you the extra mass. i meen it happens sometimes but the slightest thing can tip the balance.

When you overeat like this your basicly creating a buffer that prevents your body going catabolic like you would in the lean bulk.

In addition all the extra callories give you enormous amounts of energy and that does equal better performance in the gym.

Also the extra mass gained from water and fat will enable your joints greater protection and enable your tendons to be more effectivly buffered. thus increaseing strenght and enabling you to work harder triggering a greater need for the body to react and get stronger and grow more tissue.


----------



## wogihao

cellaratt said:


> How the fcuk do I eat 5000 cal a day without having to eat 10 full meals a day ?


thats a easy one...

morning full english thats at least 1.5k callories there

mid morning a bulk shake you sip this through the morning thats 900-1.2k

lunch you have 3 double cheese burgers thats 1.5k

mid afternoon have another shake thats 900-1.2k

dinner have a big meal thats going to be 2k

we have then easly exceeded 5k of callories and thats not includeing the 2 pints of coke.


----------



## cellaratt

wogihao said:


> thats a easy one...
> 
> morning full english thats at least 1.5k callories there


Not sure what a full english is...I American remember


----------



## Guest

cellaratt said:


> How the fcuk do I eat 5000 cal a day without having to eat 10 full meals a day ?


5 meals 1000cals per meal

1/2lb steak=300cals

200grams pasta uncooked weight=700cals

tomatoe sauce

It really isnt that hard.....

Shake version

6 whole eggs=420 cals

30grams whey=120 cals

150grams oats uncooked= 450


----------



## wogihao

cellaratt said:


> Not sure what a full english is...I American remember


A full english would be probably

2 fryed eggs

chips (or you know them as french frys)

fryed tomato

fryed toast

baked beans

bacon

mushrooms

cup of tea


----------



## cellaratt

Thanks guy's it's slowly sinking in...Now next ?...When I read the nutrition facts on the food packages it give me calories and calories from fat, due I combine the 2 for total calories or is the calories section the total calories and the calories from fat are already includeed in that amount ?


----------



## Guest

cellaratt said:


> Thanks guy's it's slowly sinking in...Now next ?...When I read the nutrition facts on the food packages it give me calories and calories from fat, due I combine the 2 for total calories or is the calories section the total calories and the calories from fat are already includeed in that amount ?


No just total calories


----------



## leveret

wogihao said:


> A full english would be probably
> 
> 2 fryed eggs
> 
> chips (or you know them as french frys)
> 
> fryed tomato
> 
> fryed toast
> 
> baked beans
> 
> bacon
> 
> mushrooms
> 
> cup of tea


Are you mad?

sausages

bacon

eggs

beans

tomatos

mushrooms

blackpudding

toast with marmalade

hash browns

fried bread

coffee

i've probably forgotten something... but that is my idea of heaven!


----------



## wogihao

Liam said:


> Are you mad?
> 
> sausages
> 
> bacon
> 
> eggs
> 
> beans
> 
> tomatos
> 
> mushrooms
> 
> blackpudding
> 
> toast with marmalade
> 
> hash browns
> 
> fried bread
> 
> coffee
> 
> i've probably forgotten something... but that is my idea of heaven!


lol yea theres probably loads more but your be lucky to get all that in the one meal from most places.


----------



## ah24

Havent read it all but I'd just be a little worried of a couple things

1) general health...no brainer with blood pressure, cholesterol levels (which are already affected by gear right?)

2) I know for me personally, my skin would look REALLY sh1tty and greasy if i ate sh1tty food like that

3) Clothes.....I cant afford 2 wardrobes!

Those 3 points aside, I can see it working but just really dont feel its optimum if you're dedicated?


----------



## leveret

wogihao said:


> lol yea theres probably loads more but your be lucky to get all that in the one meal from most places.


aye, drives me mad that most places don't give you black pudding... best bit imo


----------



## wogihao

ah24 said:


> Havent read it all but I'd just be a little worried of a couple things
> 
> 1) general health...no brainer with blood pressure, cholesterol levels (which are already affected by gear right?)
> 
> 2) I know for me personally, my skin would look REALLY sh1tty and greasy if i ate sh1tty food like that
> 
> 3) Clothes.....I cant afford 2 wardrobes!
> 
> Those 3 points aside, I can see it working but just really dont feel its optimum if you're dedicated?


hmm cholesterol levels are not affected to much by diet short term weird (unless your on a proper mac attack). (i think the idea that diet influences cholesterol levels alot is bro-science - but yea i beleve that one for ages).

2. yea probably but then if its a choice between being clean and small and greasy/spotty and huge i know what i would choose.

3. come on, second hand shops - army surplus its all cheap as chips.


----------



## cellaratt

Con said:


> No just total calories


So I don't combine the 2 ?


----------



## wogihao

cellaratt said:


> So I don't combine the 2 ?


nah you could take all the protien, fats, and carbs and then you could work out the total.

1g of carbs = 4 callories

1g of protien = 4 callories

1g of fat = 9 callories

1g of alchol = 7 calloires

So for example my snack today was 1/2 a double chocolate gateau.

thats 2.5 portions of cake

sooo....

on the packet its given it per portion so it recons that the 350g of cake is 5 portions...

1 portion is

183 cal per portion total x 2.5 = 457.5 cals total

Protein = 3.8g per portion

Carbohydrates = 22.7g per portion

Fat = 8.5g per portion

Fiber = 2.2g per portion

Salt = 0.1g per portion

soo I ate 2.5 portions of cake

thats...

9.5g of protein

56.75g of carbs

21.25g of fat

5.5g fiber

and 0.25g of salt

so now i know all the diffrent components i can work out my total calloritic intake

9.5g of protien gives me 4 cals per gram of protein that gives me 38 cals

56.75g of carbs gives me 4 cals per gram of carbs that gives me 227 cals

21.25g of fat gives me 9 cals per gram of fat that gives me 191.25 cals

if i could digest the fiber it would give me 4 cals per gram giving me 22 cals

So 456.25 cals total nearly what it said on the packet at the fron for 457 cals we wernt far off..


----------



## cellaratt

wogihao said:


> nah you could take all the protien, fats, and carbs and then you could work out the total.
> 
> 1g of carbs = 4 callories
> 
> 1g of protien = 4 callories
> 
> 1g of fat = 9 callories
> 
> 1g of alchol = 7 calloires
> 
> So for example my snack today was 1/2 a double chocolate gateau.
> 
> thats 2.5 portions of cake
> 
> sooo....
> 
> on the packet its given it per portion so it recons that the 350g of cake is 5 portions...
> 
> 1 portion is
> 
> 183 cal per portion total x 2.5 = 457.5 cals total


Fcuk me I'm even more confused now then when I started. Wogi can you take a look at my meals on my journal and guestimate my total cal intake for the day when you get a free sec...Thanks...


----------



## Tall

wogihao said:


> hmm cholesterol levels are not affected to much by diet short term weird (unless your on a proper mac attack). (*i think the idea that diet influences cholesterol levels alot is bro-science - but yea i beleve that one for ages).*
> 
> 2. yea probably but then if its a choice between being clean and small and greasy/spotty and huge i know what i would choose.
> 
> 3. come on, second hand shops - army surplus its all cheap as chips.


Dodgy 80s research still being pimped out by common or garden fitness mags.

Dodgy food can affect Cholesterol levels by about 4% - can dig out a study if you want it, but thats basicaly all it says

Gear can, obviously, massively change your HDL (make it almost non-existant...) and LDL (send it through the roof) which could be why Ronnie takes Cholesterol meds perhaps....? :rolleye11


----------



## ba baracuss

wogihao said:


> Hmm.. An intresting question that goes to the heart of why a lean bulk rarely will work without the addition of alot of meds or genetic ubermenchen hood.
> 
> The reasion it works is because you have to convince your body that food its plentyfull, once it realises this it kicks back and relaxes and does some groovy things that it wouldnt usualy do. It will add muscle tissue provided that there is the need created through exersise because it figures that it can afford to make extra muscle tissue because theres so much protien and callories around to cover the basics of survival and maintenence.
> 
> when you lean bulk its such a thin line between just maintaining your existing mass the body rarely kicks back and gives you the extra mass. i meen it happens sometimes but the slightest thing can tip the balance.
> 
> When you overeat like this your basicly creating a buffer that prevents your body going catabolic like you would in the lean bulk.
> 
> In addition all the extra callories give you enormous amounts of energy and that does equal better performance in the gym.
> 
> Also the extra mass gained from water and fat will enable your joints greater protection and enable your tendons to be more effectivly buffered. thus increaseing strenght and enabling you to work harder triggering a greater need for the body to react and get stronger and grow more tissue.


Thanks for that. That's helped me get a better grasp of things somewhat.

I had always understood it that while lots of calories are necessary, they're best being 'clean' calories, ie not from sugar and fat.

I may well try eating my fry ups again for a while then and also takeaways, cake etc. I'm naturally slim anyway so it can't hurt.


----------



## wogihao

ba baracuss said:


> Thanks for that. That's helped me get a better grasp of things somewhat.
> 
> I had always understood it that while lots of calories are necessary, they're best being 'clean' calories, ie not from sugar and fat.
> 
> I may well try eating my fry ups again for a while then and also takeaways, cake etc. I'm naturally slim anyway so it can't hurt.


To a certain point you can eat clean but you have to rember your body can only digest so many carbs ect at one time, if your stomach is full of say rice, theres no way you would get all the nutrents in there processed you would end up ****ting most of the good stuff out the other end.

so you need callorie dence foods to first take care of your basic callorie matence levels then you add in quality protiens and carbs but again you want the most bang for you buck, they need to be high protien/high carb sources so when it hits your intestines you can process the nutrents as effectivly as possible because were trying to maximise the intestinal absorption of callories/nuturents into the blood stream.

Thus if you use a food source that has a low callorie or low protien/ or low carb per gram its not a efficent use of your intestines and it will just prevent the nutrents of other better food sources getting absorbed into the body.

The other reasion for eating dirty is after a point your body rejects anything thats in to higher quanity (consider why most people rotate there protein sources and carbs - over time bro - science says that you become intolerant to a particular food source.)

Its also way easyer to eat **** that you like than plain food thats "good" for you. thus its far more likely that your fullfull the calloritic need for growth doing somthing you like rather than somthing you hate.


----------



## Guest

Wogi how about you STFU about this until you actually get to a mans weight and then you can keep saying stuff like this:blowme:


----------



## wogihao

Con said:


> Wogi how about you STFU about this until you actually get to a mans weight and then you can keep saying stuff like this:blowme:


:target:

Very funny, unlike the yourself i dont get most of my junk callories from stella though so i cant comment.

You must teach me this new diet the AA prep. 

lol you watch this space 3 weeks 100kg+ again then maby maby 110kg... in another 2


----------



## Guest

wogihao said:


> :target:
> 
> Very funny, unlike the yourself i dont get most of my junk callories from stella though so i cant comment.
> 
> You must teach me this new diet the AA prep.


Actually its vodka and chocolate martinis:blowme:


----------



## cellaratt

Con said:


> 5 meals 1000cals per meal
> 
> 1/2lb steak=300cals
> 
> 200grams pasta uncooked weight=700cals
> 
> tomatoe sauce
> 
> *It really isnt that hard.....*
> 
> Shake version
> 
> 6 whole eggs=420 cals
> 
> 30grams whey=120 cals
> 
> 150grams oats uncooked= 450


Please be patient Con, when you go from eating one meal a day to some kind of bulking diet, it is that hard, or your expertise on this board woudln't really be needed...


----------



## Guest

cellaratt said:


> Please be patient Con, when you go from eating one meal a day to some kind of bulking diet, it is that hard, or your expertise on this board woudln't really be needed...


Nah i have no expertise mate i just go on here to post stupid **** 

I fully agree thats very hard to do i struggle to eat all my food on a cutting diet let alone eat that kind of quantity.

Extreem bulking is cool and all but when i do it i look like this...








and that doesnt do me any favors women wise when compared to this







so i prefer to stick to a clean diet with the occasional litre of vodka and big mac attack thrown in for good measure:lift:


----------



## cellaratt

:lift: :beer1:


----------



## wogihao

It looks someone killed your dog in the first pic, were you upset?

vodka, I somtimes indulge the simple pleasures of subroka but thats only now and again lol.


----------



## Guest

As usual wogi left info out and i have to come and pick up the pieces:rolleyes:

Here is the most important part of the article.....

The Role of Drugs in Diet

Before we continue on, I'd like to make it clear that the nutritional strategies that are discussed in this article are not designed with the health of the athlete in mind. Additionally, the plan we will outline will be of benefit only to bodybuilders using significant amounts of growth promoting drugs, specifically heavy androgens. In a future issue of Anabolic Extreme, we will examine the various high-fat, low-carb diets, which I feel are particularly effective for natural athletes. Please bear in mind that any numbers or figures discussed in this article would apply only to bodybuilders that are fairly advanced and using a significant amount of steroid. Nutritional strategies would vary for beginners or natural athletes. I can always be contacted via the site and try and answer as many emails as possible. I'm also available for consultations and on-line training.

Obviously, something is going on here that is allowing these guys to consume an enormous amount of calories and not have it go straight to their butt and gut. If a natural athlete were to eat in this fashion, he'd soon be getting a visit from a sobbing Richard Simmons. The drugs these athletes take not only have an anabolic effect, but have some effect on adipose tissue as well. So, out of the myriad of drugs these athletes use, which are responsible for keeping for them both large and lean (relatively!) at the same time?

Hopefully everyone is aware of the amazing effect HGH has on reducing body fat. This is one of the few real world effects of growth that has been proven through scientific research. Its effects on lean body mass, at least according to all of the studies I've read, are less than impressive. This isn't what I've witnessed with my own eyes, but I don't even want to open up that can of worms here! However, all of the studies on growth show that it burns fat, with some subjects losing as much as 15% of their fat tissue.

Testosterone has a proven effect on lipolysis (fat release) in adipose tissue. To my knowledge, there has never been a study done using young, healthy males and large doses of testosterone to determine its effects on body composition. For the most part, studies done on growth hormone and testosterone are performed on aging populations and geriatrics, or severely ill individuals suffering from wasting conditions. However, there have been a few studies on younger males using very low doses of testosterone that have clearly demonstrated its effectiveness at reducing body fat.

Meal Planning, Frequency, and Consistency

We've all heard we should eat 4-6 meals a day. I try and have most of my clients shoot for 6-8 meals a day. Why? Well, let's say your caloric intake on any given day needs to be 7500 kcals per day. If you consume this over three meals, each meal will contain approximately 2500 kcal. Realistically, your body is not going to be able to digest this many calories and much of the nutrient value of the food is lost. By spreading these meals over 7 sittings, you're able to effectively digest the food and maximize the benefits of eating at this level. Additionally, your metabolism is going to speed up since every time you consume food, your body has to expend energy to digest it.

Eating more frequent smaller meals has been proven to have positive effects on cholesterol and body fat levels. Now, I'm not telling you that eating 7,500 kcals is unhealthy when consumed in three meals but healthy when spread out over seven. Eating calories at that level is unhealthy, PERIOD!! However, bodybuilding is about achieving a certain cosmetic effect, and the extremes of bodybuilding are only reached through extreme measures. If this frightens you, you need to reevaluate your goals. Again, we are discussing what it takes to succeed in the upper echelons of the sport.

When it becomes necessary to consume calories at this level, life becomes a constant stream of eating, cooking, cleaning, and eating again. Most pro bodybuilders don't have a job outside the sport, the daily regimen that's required to be successful precludes outside work. Meals should be consumed every 2-3 hours with clockwork precision. This ensures a constant supply of nutrients and protein in the bloodstream. Obviously it's nearly impossible to consume 6-8 solid food meals a day, most athletes will take 3-4 or their meals in liquid form. Since these liquid meals are more easily digested than whole foods, it allows the bodybuilder a respite if 7-8 meals are required to get the necessary caloric intake.

So, how many calories are necessary for growth? Every athlete has a different caloric need, based on a variety of factors. At the elite level, athletes have been known to consume 25-30 kcal per lb of bodyweight per day. What's important to understand is that the level of caloric consumption should be based on the weight you are striving for, not your current weight. Let's take Joe Bodybuilder. Joe weighs 260 lbs at 6' and has been lifting seriously for several years now. His friends keep telling him to compete at the State level so he's decided to get up to 300 lbs and diet back. However, no matter how hard he tries, he can't add any more muscle. The problem probably lies with Joe's nutrition program. Since he wants to weigh 300 lbs, he might have to eat somewhere in the range of 8,000-9,000 kcal per day to achieve that weight. Most bodybuilders are unable to do this.

If Joe does have the willpower to do this, what should he eat? I've known many elite bodybuilders that eat whatever they want in the off season. Certainly they focus on protein consumption, but after that, everything is fair game. It is possible to eat in a fashion that is conducive to both fat loss and muscular gain but that requires constant monitoring of the athlete and is beyond the scope of this article.

The bodybuilding media has perpetrated the myth that we should be in shape all year long. Realistically, this is ultimately a recipe for disaster in your quest to add muscular size. Staying lean year round is the domain of male models and endurance athletes. If you're serious about packing on as much muscle as possible, go buy that baggy T-shirt and start loading up on the groceries. When you diet off that extra flab, you'll find that you've taken your physique to a whole new level.

If you want to maximize your bodybuilding success, contact Jason Meuller at [email protected] Jason is available for online consultations to help you achieve your bodybuilding goals.

Copyright 1999 Jason Meuller and Anabolic Extreme

IF YOU ENJOYED THIS FEEL FREE TO REP ME:lift:


----------



## nathanlowe

So the extreme body builders, in the offseason, eat large amounts of fatty foods ?

So you can put on alot of muscle from eating a high fat junk food diet ?


----------



## Wee G1436114539

Lemme simplify this for ya Nathaniel..

Muscle gain requires...

*A stimulus from training*

*
*

*
A calorie surplus ie more kcals than you need to just survive on. *

*
*

*
A certain amount of protein.*

ANY diet that provides the calorie excess and adequate protein will enable muscle gains, assuming training is providing a stimulus.

Now, for example, lets say your body requires 2500 calories a day to maintain your current weight. And let us also presume you require 200g of protein per day to grow muscle at all.

If you were clean, and also wanted to stay lean, you could eat 2800kcal and 200g of protein per day. You would then gain muscle mass slowly. Your rate of bodyweight gain would be "slow" because your calorie surplus is very small. Your rate of muscle gain would be slow also.

Now, eat 3000 kcal a day and 250g of protein. Now you will have a faster rate of BODYWEIGHT gain and a faster rate of muscle gain...but because you only needed 2800kcal to grow on, you might have some calories "left over" every day. They are stored as bodyfat. The question is how much of a "trade" are you willing to make?

Wogi is saying it is better to be a few hundred calories over your needs and maybe get a little chunky, then it is to try and keep everything "perfect" and stay lean year round...why?.

Take the same guy and jab him with a magic wand that looks a lot like a 23g pin full of test....because the drugs speed up protein synthesis, he now uses up more calories a day...and grows muscle at a much faster rate to. So, feed him 3000 kcal and 250g protein and he grows just fine, (much faster than he did before his fairy godmother wogi showed up) and doesnt get fat at all.

BUT, as he adds muscle mass, he needs ever more calories to grow on. He is, after all, a bigger animal now!

So, bump up the calories to 4,000 and the protein to 300g and keep waving the pin shaped magic wand close to your bottom and hey presto...more growth...more muscle...more bodyweight. If calories had been kept at 2500 in the interests of "staying lean" our intrepid bodybuilder would still weigh the same as he did when he started, magic wand or not!

So, we have the concept of ramping calories whilst gaining weight - the heavier you are, the more calories will be required to get heavier still. So, when bulking, kclas should be ramped ever upwards to avoid stalling out.

How much to ramp calories by will depend on your rate of gain...if you can only gain musle slowly, due to being drug free, naturally retarded of largeness potential, or afflicted by some disease whereby you have no appetite, then it IS pointless to eat wildly in excess of your bodies maintainance calories....you will just get fat.

If however your magic wand is bulging with goodies, your ass resembles a topographical map of Stalingrad circa 1943, and you have the inbred ability to be a mutant, then your rate of muscle gain will be huge, and hence you will eat much more than maintainance calories and still stay reasonably lean....the only side effect is huge muscles.

If you are in this 2nd group it really wont matter much where the extra calories come from, so why eat a bucket of rice when you could have some tasty burgers???

Lastly, in the short term, everyone adds fat when they "bulk" up. what Wogi, Jason Mueller and Con are pointing out is that if you take a year out, indulge heavily in puncturing yourself and eat a **** load of food whilst training sensibly...you will ge FATTER....but only a bit...and you will also grow every single frickin day of the year.

PS- Doesnt work for natties, trust me. I've been up to 135kg clean after 4 years of pounding the food and although i was strong as **** i was also disgustingly fat. This next few years I am gonna repeat the whole process but with help of the golden oily ampoule and predict annoyingly fast gains in muscle mass.

PSS - this post has deteriorated in to a ranting mess, but it has hidden nuggets of info if you look hard.

PSSS - Not the kind of hidden nuggets wogis sister has....different ones.


----------



## nathanlowe

Thanks for the post WEE G. that was a very good read.


----------



## wogihao

Wee G said:


> Lemme simplify this for ya Nathaniel..
> 
> Muscle gain requires...
> 
> *A stimulus from training*
> 
> *
> *
> 
> *
> A calorie surplus ie more kcals than you need to just survive on. *
> 
> *
> *
> 
> *
> A certain amount of protein.*
> 
> ANY diet that provides the calorie excess and adequate protein will enable muscle gains, assuming training is providing a stimulus.
> 
> Now, for example, lets say your body requires 2500 calories a day to maintain your current weight. And let us also presume you require 200g of protein per day to grow muscle at all.
> 
> If you were clean, and also wanted to stay lean, you could eat 2800kcal and 200g of protein per day. You would then gain muscle mass slowly. Your rate of bodyweight gain would be "slow" because your calorie surplus is very small. Your rate of muscle gain would be slow also.
> 
> Now, eat 3000 kcal a day and 250g of protein. Now you will have a faster rate of BODYWEIGHT gain and a faster rate of muscle gain...but because you only needed 2800kcal to grow on, you might have some calories "left over" every day. They are stored as bodyfat. The question is how much of a "trade" are you willing to make?
> 
> Wogi is saying it is better to be a few hundred calories over your needs and maybe get a little chunky, then it is to try and keep everything "perfect" and stay lean year round...why?.
> 
> Take the same guy and jab him with a magic wand that looks a lot like a 23g pin full of test....because the drugs speed up protein synthesis, he now uses up more calories a day...and grows muscle at a much faster rate to. So, feed him 3000 kcal and 250g protein and he grows just fine, (much faster than he did before his fairy godmother wogi showed up) and doesnt get fat at all.
> 
> BUT, as he adds muscle mass, he needs ever more calories to grow on. He is, after all, a bigger animal now!
> 
> So, bump up the calories to 4,000 and the protein to 300g and keep waving the pin shaped magic wand close to your bottom and hey presto...more growth...more muscle...more bodyweight. If calories had been kept at 2500 in the interests of "staying lean" our intrepid bodybuilder would still weigh the same as he did when he started, magic wand or not!
> 
> So, we have the concept of ramping calories whilst gaining weight - the heavier you are, the more calories will be required to get heavier still. So, when bulking, kclas should be ramped ever upwards to avoid stalling out.
> 
> How much to ramp calories by will depend on your rate of gain...if you can only gain musle slowly, due to being drug free, naturally retarded of largeness potential, or afflicted by some disease whereby you have no appetite, then it IS pointless to eat wildly in excess of your bodies maintainance calories....you will just get fat.
> 
> If however your magic wand is bulging with goodies, your ass resembles a topographical map of Stalingrad circa 1943, and you have the inbred ability to be a mutant, then your rate of muscle gain will be huge, and hence you will eat much more than maintainance calories and still stay reasonably lean....the only side effect is huge muscles.
> 
> If you are in this 2nd group it really wont matter much where the extra calories come from, so why eat a bucket of rice when you could have some tasty burgers???
> 
> Lastly, in the short term, everyone adds fat when they "bulk" up. what Wogi, Jason Mueller and Con are pointing out is that if you take a year out, indulge heavily in puncturing yourself and eat a **** load of food whilst training sensibly...you will ge FATTER....but only a bit...and you will also grow every single frickin day of the year.
> 
> PS- Doesnt work for natties, trust me. I've been up to 135kg clean after 4 years of pounding the food and although i was strong as **** i was also disgustingly fat. This next few years I am gonna repeat the whole process but with help of the golden oily ampoule and predict annoyingly fast gains in muscle mass.
> 
> PSS - this post has deteriorated in to a ranting mess, but it has hidden nuggets of info if you look hard.
> 
> PSSS - Not the kind of hidden nuggets wogis sister has....different ones.


Thats a exelent analysis. :beer:

(lol I have a brother not a sister :lol: )


----------



## ymir

Y' I do agree with this one, packed on a heavy bulk period about 67 lb's according to me and my sisters calculations I've got about 30 of those lb's as pure muscle.

Started at 170 in bad shape and topped at 236lb's now im at 196 with abs, separation in quads, separations at delts/pec tie in, I would guess around 10-14% BF

I slowly had to increase my cals to keep gaining, i started at about 2800-3000kcal aday and when i was the heaviest i was consuming about 4000-5000kcal aday, I had a clock with me that larmed every 60min when it larmed i started to look for something to eat, anything, burgers, chips, chicken, small stray cats etc.

ofc at 236 lb's my shape was bad, but I still had good condition and feelt really good.

atm im dieting and trying to decide wich way to go after the diet "slow leanmass" or just another "maximal massbuilding bulk" if I can repeat last bulk I would be at about ... 220-230 in current shape at 5"8 ofc it will take about a year, and yes I plan to compete some time in the future.

well comes rebound first  great read!


----------



## Guest

Ymir what drugs if any did you use during this period, as in a natural trainer eating chips will never result in good gains even in the non natural trainer i do believe junk food should at least have some nutritional value for example i like beef burgers which have a ton of calories but a lot of protein also.


----------



## ymir

Con said:


> Ymir what drugs if any did you use during this period, as in a natural trainer eating chips will never result in good gains even in the non natural trainer i do believe junk food should at least have some nutritional value for example i like beef burgers which have a ton of calories but a lot of protein also.


I didnt start cycling at 170 lb's i fixed my nutrition first and started cycling at 196lbs in quite bad shape imo.

this was over a 18 month period, using medium long cycles

first was 6 weeks dbol 25mg ED

Second cycle was Tprop 300mg EW for 6wk's with 10mg dbol 25mg proviron ED I messed up PCT after this cycle due to alot of things happening in my private life was good wisdom tho.

Third cycle (the best) was NPP 800mg front first week, then 400mg EW with 25mg Dbol ED NPP 7 weeks Dbol 8 weeks, when coming off this cycle i felt great no cycle crash as after the test cycle.

Now on my diet I have been "on" the whole way since I see no reason in loosing excess mass from my bulking period, I have been doing cruise/blast

and tested for me new compounds, as dbol/drol stack, tren Ace, Tren E, EQ and Test E, Sus etc.

Im still on and figuring out what to do this autumn, my sis pushes me to compete and my fiance too but I dont know if the timing is right yet.

I would like to do a fast Rebound, and then go on the competition diet refreshed mentally if I dont mess up the rebound I should not store up too much fat, but regain some muscle memory, well I still have 5 months to decide if to compete this year or not, but i still need to do more research on doing the rebound etc etc.


----------



## Guest

ymir said:


> Now on my diet I have been "on" the whole way since I see no reason in loosing excess mass from my bulking period, I have been doing cruise/blast
> 
> and tested for me new compounds, as dbol/drol stack, tren Ace, Tren E, EQ and Test E, Sus etc.


Nice one mate, how old are you just out of curiosity and how do you line out the cruise part?


----------



## ymir

Con said:


> Nice one mate, how old are you just out of curiosity and how do you line out the cruise part?


Im 29, I'll just PM you my whole "diet" cycle.


----------



## greg fear

intresting thread wogi,

not sure if anyone has seen jay cutler's one step closer

but after the mr O about two weeks later he is just under 300pounds

and still looking cut really cut

so im thinking a better approach maybe

it could be better to get yourself shreaded first then go all out with the cals, i know these guys are pros

but i think for most people with a half decent shape, it would be better to

get yourself cut first, and then bulk up this way one may not look like a

lump of lard when trying to bulk to the extreme

just my two pence worth


----------



## Guest

greg fear said:


> intresting thread wogi,
> 
> not sure if anyone has seen jay cutler's one step closer
> 
> but after the mr O about two weeks later he is just under 300pounds
> 
> and still looking cut really cut
> 
> so im thinking a better approach maybe
> 
> it could be better to get yourself shreaded first then go all out with the cals, i know these guys are pros
> 
> but i think for most people with a half decent shape, it would be better to
> 
> get yourself cut first, and then bulk up this way one may not look like a
> 
> lump of lard when trying to bulk to the extreme
> 
> just my two pence worth


Of course, there is no point in doing such a program if your 15% bf in fact i would say dont do it unless your starting under 8% as the body is much more likely to add fat the fatter you are.

As for Jay Culter he is on huge amounts of drugs you couldnt even fathom so why compare to him also when he was building this size he did not stay lean.


----------



## The_Kernal

Hey up Wogi, another Good post bud.

You should run for president!!


----------



## greg fear

Con said:


> Of course, there is no point in doing such a program if your 15% bf in fact i would say dont do it unless your starting under 8% as the body is much more likely to add fat the fatter you are.
> 
> As for Jay Culter he is on huge amounts of drugs you couldnt even fathom so why compare to him also when he was building this size he did not stay lean.


con u take alot more drugs than jay cuter  lol


----------



## Guest

greg fear said:


> con u take alot more drugs than jay cuter  lol


If take is code for get and drugs is code for ass then yes:lol:


----------



## Littleluke

pmsl


----------



## Aftershock

Wee G said:


> Take the same guy and jab him with a magic wand that looks a lot like a 23g pin full of test....because the drugs speed up protein synthesis, he now uses up more calories a day...and grows muscle at a much faster rate to. So, feed him 3000 kcal and 250g protein and he grows just fine, (much faster than he did before his fairy godmother wogi showed up) and doesnt get fat at all.


I've got this mental image of Wog dressed in a fairy godmother outfit with his magic test wand now.

Its put me right off lunch I can tell you :tongue:


----------



## Magic Torch

Aftershock said:


> I've got this mental image of Wog dressed in a fairy godmother outfit with his magic test wand now.
> 
> Its put me right off lunch I can tell you :tongue:


Hey watch your mouth Mr Aftershock sir, yogi beaar has never touched my test wand! :cursing:


----------



## wogihao

Aftershock said:


> I've got this mental image of Wog dressed in a fairy godmother outfit with his magic test wand now.
> 
> Its put me right off lunch I can tell you :tongue:


hahahaa now that would be a funny photo:lol: :lol:


----------



## Aftershock

Magic Torch said:


> Hey watch your mouth Mr Aftershock sir, yogi beaar has never touched my test wand! :cursing:


Glad to here it mate :laugh::laugh:


----------



## alabbadi

I can't undrstand how eating this excesive will give you a great body. true eating lots of calories will increase your overall mass physique , however a lot of fat will form around the waist, and we all know how stubbon it is to get rid of.

i would like to know how you can acheive a six pack eating that much, won't all your efforts in the gym just be waisted. your abs will be just hidden behind that flab.

regards

alabbadi


----------



## Guest

alabbadi said:


> I can't undrstand how eating this excesive will give you a great body. true eating lots of calories will increase your overall mass physique , however a lot of fat will form around the waist, and we all know how stubbon it is to get rid of.
> 
> i would like to know how you can acheive a six pack eating that much, won't all your efforts in the gym just be waisted. your abs will be just hidden behind that flab.
> 
> regards
> 
> alabbadi


 Some people dont care about having a 6 pack year round and rather be as massive as possible.

There is a time to diet and a time to gain, some people stay lean year round but some dont neither way is better than the other.

No offense but it doesnt look like you have a chiseled physique from your current diet so who are you to say what is good and what is not.......


----------



## Aftershock

alabbadi said:


> i would like to know how you can acheive a six pack eating that much, won't all your efforts in the gym just be waisted. your abs will be just hidden behind that flab.
> 
> regards
> 
> alabbadi


I guess one way to look at is that increased muscle tissue will require calories to support it, so your BMR will increase. You will still have to shift the fat but you can consume more calories while doing it.


----------



## LittleChris

BUMP


----------



## Lois_Lane

God said:


> x2 - Would be interested to hear from the likes of Con and Dutch Scott on this one as it certainly goes against a few recent threads.


Stupid thread that shouldn't have been bumped IMO made by a total tool who ripped me off nuff said really.


----------



## LittleChris

So this method doesn't work then?


----------



## Heineken

Yeah it'll give you mass.

Around your f*cking gut.


----------



## hilly

chris no1 can tell you that. it may work for u. you need to start trying things and stop choping and changing.

i no im bad for this but you take the biscuit


----------



## Lois_Lane

LittleChris said:


> So this method doesn't work then?


With enough drugs and enough disregard for health a lot of things will work.

Does this apply to 99.9% of people on here? No.


----------



## ba baracuss

Lois_Lane said:


> Stupid thread that shouldn't have been bumped IMO made by a total tool who ripped me off nuff said really.


Really? The cheeky fvcker. I was interested in this theory and think I posted on this thread earlier or if not then another similar, but in hindsight I don't like the approach as it just piles on lard in places it's hard to get rid of. The 'bulk then cut' method is crap IMO.


----------



## rs007

Lois_Lane said:


> With enough drugs and enough disregard for health a lot of things will work.
> 
> *Does this apply to 99.9% of people on here? No*.


Thats the exact nub of the matter right there.

The article references Dorian and Nasser to name but two, and the crazy eating amounts, sky high calories.

Dorian and Nasser were freaks. That type of eating did not make them freaks, it was the other way around - the fact they were freaks (and various chems etc) made them able to eat and process these amounts, amounts which even if your typical mortal on here COULD eat, would just make them obese in short order.

If there is one thing I have learned - for the genetically average trainer I mean - is that you just can't force feed growth, irrespective of the pharmacology involved.

But the average Joe always believes the more is better principal, even when it is subtle and they don't realise it.... if you are gaining well on 500mg test, 1000mg must be fantastic.... if 1000mg is fantastic, then 2000mg must be off the planet... ad infinitum.

This is just that same situation, but with food, IMO.

Of course worth a try at least once, you never know if you have the genetics lying dormant to make this work, I know I don't tho!


----------

