# 5x5 or 3x10



## smallboy (Jun 13, 2013)

1) 5x5. 3-5 mins rest between sets

2) 3x10. 1 min rest between sets

Which one you prefer for mass muscle?


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

I'm guessing you're a beginner? In which case give something like Stronglifts a go for a couple of months to help you learn and get stronger at the most fundamental lifts. This is based around 5 rep sets.

To grow the main thing to worry about is to get stronger over time - so each workout you should be aiming to lift heavier weights or to do more reps as the same weight as last time. If you do this you will grow.

If you want to get a little more understanding of one way that rep ranges can make some difference, have a read of the following:

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-gain/reps-per-set-for-optimal-growth.html/


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## Quackerz (Dec 19, 2015)

As good as each other. Depends how you like to train.



Ultrasonic said:


> I'm guessing you're a beginner? In which case give something like Stronglifts a go for a couple of months to help you learn and get stronger at the most fundamental lifts. This is based around 5 rep sets.
> 
> To grow the main thing to worry about is to get stronger over time - so each workout you should be aiming to lift heavier weights or to do more reps as the same weight as last time. If you do this you will grow.
> 
> ...


 Rep ranges make little difference IMO. Lift heavy, lift light, it all builds muscle.........


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Quackerz said:


> Rep ranges make little difference IMO. Lift heavy, lift light, it all builds muscle.........


 That was the point of my second paragraph. Volume is the biggest factor, although I would generally suggest the 5-12 rep range for most things.

I think lower rep sets are helpful for learning complicated lifts though, which is why I made the suggestion above. This is one reason that Starting Strength is structured the way it is.


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## swole troll (Apr 15, 2015)

confused about rep ranges and sets?

have a watch of this brief video and it might help clear a few things up


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## Quackerz (Dec 19, 2015)

Ultrasonic said:


> That was the point of my second paragraph. Volume is the biggest factor, although I would generally suggest the 5-12 rep range for most things.
> 
> I think lower rep sets are helpful for learning complicated lifts though, which is why I made the suggestion above. This is one reason that Starting Strength is structured the way it is.


 I would say the opposite. I think All Pro's is the best beginner routine out there, then people should progress into heavy lifting.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Quackerz said:


> I would say the opposite. I think All Pro's is the best beginner routine out there, then people should progress into heavy lifting.


 There are obviously going to be different opinions on this and I'm not expecting to change your mind, but for me there are three advantages to 5 rep sets right at the start:

1) It is easier to concentrate on form for fewer reps, which coupled with doing more sets when you can start afresh can help with learning. (Mark Rippetoe is of this view and if has a fair amount of experience teaching beginners...)

2) Right at the start strength gains are primarily neurological. A high frequency 5x5 style programme gets this phase out of the way faster, so that people can then start to make the size gains they probably really want. (Note I only suggested Stronglifts for a couple of months, not long term.)

3) This won't apply to everyone but it's quite common for beginners to not be very good at pushing themselves, so what they think is a 10 rep limit often isn't close. The programmed weight increases of Stronglifts can work better in this regard for some.

Just my tuppence worth. The single most important thing for beginners to do is to just start lifting!


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## JohhnyC (Mar 16, 2015)

Ultrasonic said:


> That was the point of my second paragraph.* Volume is the biggest factor, *although I would generally suggest the 5-12 rep range for most things.
> 
> I think lower rep sets are helpful for learning complicated lifts though, which is why I made the suggestion above. This is one reason that Starting Strength is structured the way it is.


 I am a fan of volume, over the years just seems to be more suited to me. Never really took to a 5 x 5, tried many times and end up reverting back.

But for a beginner I think overall volume needs to be a lower as sessions can drag due to extending rest times and the effect on the CNS can be too much.

Saw a young lad the other day sitting outside the gym with his head in this knees, trembling in silence, got over enthusiastic in the gym, but who hasn't been in that situation!


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

JohhnyC said:


> I am a fan of volume, over the years just seems to be more suited to me. Never really took to a 5 x 5, tried many times and end up reverting back.
> 
> But for a beginner I think overall volume needs to be a lower as sessions can drag due to extending rest times and the effect on the CNS can be too much.
> 
> Saw a young lad the other day sitting outside the gym with his head in this knees, trembling in silence, got over enthusiastic in the gym, but who hasn't been in that situation!


 You've misunderstood what I said there a little but this is getting too technical and I'm worried this really isn't helping the OP.

(Edit: I was referring to equivalent volumes in different rep schemes having similar effect, as discussed in the video swoll troll posed above.)


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## andyboro (Oct 1, 2006)

First one for 6 months or so, then the other.

there is no one 'best' for any of this stuff.


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## Quackerz (Dec 19, 2015)

Ultrasonic said:


> There are obviously going to be different opinions on this and I'm not expecting to change your mind, but for me there are three advantages to 5 rep sets right at the start:
> 
> 1) It is easier to concentrate on form for fewer reps, which coupled with doing more sets when you can start afresh can help with learning. (Mark Rippetoe is of this view and if has a fair amount of experience teaching beginners...)
> 
> ...


 Would be pretty much the same with All Pro's, you start off light. You can still develop a neurological response doing higher reps. There is also less chance of injury due to people smashing weight onto the bar too quickly. (something I see all too often).

5X5 is not the be all and end all of programming for beginners, especially beginners without trained S+C coaches (something that is often overlooked).

IMO 5x5 and 3X8 are both volume training anyway. Neither of these is going to be placing you in a position where you are going to really see that much of a difference from a (solely) neurological perspective. Rate coding is best achieved at around the 85% + mark. With either 3X8 or 5X5 your looking at between 70% and 80% tops anyway....... it is not that much of a difference IMO and a higher rep range would be the safer option. But each to their own I guess.


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## 31205 (Jan 16, 2013)

I prefer 12-15 reps, personally. I feel if I try to go heavier with lower reps, I lose the feeling of the muscle working. I'd get a better feel doing 15 x 34kg db press than 8 x 44kg, for example.


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## smallboy (Jun 13, 2013)

sen said:


> I prefer 12-15 reps, personally. I feel if I try to go heavier with lower reps, I lose the feeling of the muscle working. I'd get a better feel doing 15 x 34kg db press than 8 x 44kg, for example.


 And how long is your rest between sets?


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## 31205 (Jan 16, 2013)

smallboy said:


> And how long is your rest between sets?


 Hardly anything mate. I don't see the point in hanging about. If I can't manage a decent amount of reps I'll drop the weight and carry on. Some times instead of resting I'll just do super sets. Set of chest set of shoulders set of chest set of shoulders and just rest when I'm absolutely f**ked or rest when changing super sets. Eg flat db press, front db raise. Repeat 4 times without resting then rest after 4 of each. Then flyes, side laterals. 4 sets of each no rest then rest after all 4 super sets.

These boys know what's best for beginners though, I just do whatever. I suppose getting the most out of the basics would be a good idea before moving onto something else when you stop growing.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Quackerz said:


> 5X5 is not the be all and end all of programming for beginners, especially beginners without trained S+C coaches (something that is often overlooked).


 I didn't say it was  . I have just explained why I personally would suggest it for a beginner, and that there is actaully some decent basis for this view. That doesn't mean I'm saying that this is necessarily the best thing for every new trainee to do. Very overweight/unfit people would for example be pretty ill-suited to it. Different approaches will suit other people better for loads of other reasons too. And again, I'm not expecting to change your mind here, just explaining where I'm coming from.


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## The-Real-Deal (Dec 5, 2014)

I have tried the 5x5 thing mainly just out of curiosity. I found it to be absolute [email protected] Lifting heavier as a beginner is one sure way to injure yourself before you develop your stabilizers and core strength. This is what the 5x5 program allows you to do which in my mind increases the risk. By increasing your rep range say between 8 - 10 reps you will find the maximum weight you can move is reduced, you now work the muscle more giving a higher intensity with less rest. Then to put the icing on the cake you increase the volume in a shorter space of time which gives more stimulation which results in growth. I fkn hate the 5x5 bullshit, but hey that's just me! When it comes down to the basics I know what has worked and still works for me. 

Different people may find they respond to different stimuli. However IMHO I would say we are pretty much programmed through our genetic makeup as human beings to respond in very similar ways to the given stimulation.

3x10 = 30 reps with 2 rest periods. More reps less rest!

5x5 = 25 reps with 4 rest periods. Less reps more rest!

The name of the game is to stimulate the muscles into growth.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Natty Steve'o said:


> 3x10 = 30 reps with 2 rest periods. More reps less rest!
> 
> 5x5 = 25 reps with 4 rest periods. Less reps more rest!
> 
> The name of the game is to stimulate the muscles into growth.


 FWIW the single metric that correlates best with hypertrophy is volume, which is sets x reps *x weight*. 3x10 and 5x5 would probably be fairly closely matched in this regard. 4 x 10 would generally be totally doable though and would be higher volume.

As you suggest though, doing higher rep sets is definitely more time efficient, and like you'd I wouldn't do 5x5 on this basis. (Other than as a beginner for the reasons I posted above.)


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## Mogadishu (Aug 29, 2014)

5-15 depending on the ex. Low reps during isolation tend to look like s**t.


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## The-Real-Deal (Dec 5, 2014)

Ultrasonic said:


> *FWIW the single metric that correlates best with hypertrophy is volume, which is sets x reps x weight. 3x10 and 5x5 would probably be fairly closely matched in this regard*. 4 x 10 would generally be totally doable though and would be higher volume.
> 
> As you suggest though, doing higher rep sets is definitely more time efficient, and like you'd I wouldn't do 5x5 on this basis. (Other than as a beginner for the reasons I posted above.)


 I disagree. Doing both they will feel a world apart in terms of hitting the muscle and creating that desired stress/stimuli. Doing more repetitions with half the rest period is significant in terms of stress created. Obviously it would be a given that a heavy enough weight is used.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Natty Steve'o said:


> I disagree. Doing both they will feel a world apart in terms of hitting the muscle and creating that desired stress/stimuli. Doing more repetitions with half the rest period is significant in terms of stress created. Obviously it would be a given that a heavy enough weight is used.


 When comparing rep ranges I obviously mean using the maximum weight possible in each regime such that correct form can still be maintained. And yes, higher reps with shorter rest periods will feel different (more pump), but whilst I respect your opinion the scientific evidence is pretty firmly behind overall volume being the dominant factor. That's not saying it's the only thing to worry about by any means, and as always there is some scope for individual variability.

(I know Steve won't care, but for anyone this idea is new to the following study is probably the single best piece of evidence to support what I'm saying:

https://bretcontreras.com/wp-content/uploads/Effects-of-different-volume-equated-resistance-training-loading-strategies-on-muscular-adaptations-in-well-trained-men.pdf )

Edit: I'd forgotten what had been posted above - the Eric Helms video that swole troll posted above makes the same volume point.


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## The-Real-Deal (Dec 5, 2014)

I do care soooo much..... :lol:


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## Sphinkter (Apr 10, 2015)

swole troll said:


> confused about rep ranges and sets?
> 
> have a watch of this brief video and it might help clear a few things up


 Woah that acid blot I dropped earlier really started kicking in when I watched that video.


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## smallboy (Jun 13, 2013)

Ultrasonic said:


> When comparing rep ranges I obviously mean using the maximum weight possible in each regime such that correct form can still be maintained. And yes, higher reps with shorter rest periods will feel different (more pump), but whilst I respect your opinion the scientific evidence is pretty firmly behind overall volume being the dominant factor. That's not saying it's the only thing to worry about by any means, and as always there is some scope for individual variability.
> 
> (I know Steve won't care, but for anyone this idea is new to the following study is probably the single best piece of evidence to support what I'm saying:
> 
> ...


 Thanks for this pdf.

HT 17mins and ST 70 mins yet they almost same muscle gain. So HT is more effective. If HT 34 mins for more volume, then double muscle gain of ST.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

smallboy said:


> Thanks for this pdf.
> 
> HT 17mins and ST 70 mins yet they almost same muscle gain. So HT is more effective. *If HT 34 mins for more volume, then double muscle gain of ST.*


 The last part isn't necessarily true, but yes, you should be able to do higher volume per workout using higher rep sets and therefore likely get more growth. This is one reason why I don't do 5x5 training myself. Whatever volume you do end up doing needs to be balanced with training frequency to ensure appropriate recovery and growth, which is largely a question of personal experimentation. Any successful training programme needs to be progressive - simply doing loads of volume but never increasing the weight (or total volume) won't get you anywhere. Long term, mixing up work in different rep ranges can help continue long term progress, making some lower rep work more beneficial in terms of overall size.

If strength is of interest then the comparison changes of course. (And I believe there are other considerations for beginners as I outlined above.)


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## ausmaz (Jul 14, 2014)

Bottom line.....everything works.... but nothing works forever...

I love simplicity


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## The-Real-Deal (Dec 5, 2014)

Too many people trying to reinvent the wheel.


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## armor king (Sep 29, 2013)

One thing is for sure 5X5 will increase your overall strength more espiecally 1 rep maxes


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## smallboy (Jun 13, 2013)

I guess I will use RPT 4x10 with 1.5 mins rest.

100kg x 10 (progressive overload)

90kg x 10 (just volume)

80kg x 10 (volume)

80kg x 10 (volume)

Lower/Upper (L - U - Rest - Repeat)

Lower: Squat, RDL, lunges, calf raise

Upper: bench, rows, ohp, chinup

Or

PPL (Pull - Push - Leg - Rest - Repeat)

Pull: Deadlift, rows, chinup

Push: Bench, Ohp, Dips/CGBP

Leg: Squat, Lunges, Calf raise


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

smallboy said:


> I guess I will use RPT 4x10 with 1.5 mins rest.
> 
> 100kg x 10 (progressive overload)
> 
> ...


 Personally I would do sets across not decreasing weight like that i.e. 4x10 with the same weight. I'm not saying what you've suggested won't gain you muscle, but all of my comments above re. volume assumed sets across.


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