# Shoulders - lateral raises



## KitchenGuy (Sep 25, 2012)

A couple of people have told me to go really light on this exercise, but i always feel like light weights aren't doing anything, then when i check out vids on youtube etc nobody actually ever gets shot doing lighter weights on the exercise??

What do you do for shoulders there definatly behind every other body part for me


----------



## xpower (Jul 28, 2009)

Do them seated so ya not swinging the weight up.


----------



## Dagman72 (Apr 2, 2009)

agree, control the movement up and down, i have added drop sets as well.


----------



## mccreesh (Jan 30, 2013)

I also like swapping between dumbell lateral raises and cables raises, nice and slow and controlled


----------



## KitchenGuy (Sep 25, 2012)

Ususally do 12 reps 12.5, so if i drop them to like 7/8kg's?.

Don't like doing cable raises feels really un natural to me


----------



## xpower (Jul 28, 2009)

KitchenGuy said:


> Ususally do 12 reps 12.5, so if i drop them to like 7/8kg's?.
> 
> Don't like doing cable raises feels really un natural to me


 So long as you control the weight then use whatever you can

Seated work well because they require more control from the target muscle


----------



## The Cheese (Sep 22, 2012)

Doing them lying on your side on a bench is also a good method.

I feel like I get the best connection doing them that way.


----------



## C.Hill (Nov 21, 2010)

Keep tension throughout, see so many trainers relaxing at bottom of movement, bring them down to your side, not in front of you, and pause before they touch your leg and straight back up again, nice and controlled.


----------



## johnnya (Mar 28, 2013)

Squeeze the whole way through or use a coumpond movement instead eg military press unless you have your shoulders at a size your happy with then go for isolation


----------



## johnnya (Mar 28, 2013)

Sorry compound...lol


----------



## MRSTRONG (Apr 18, 2009)

i dont do them i just wanted to add another back avi .


----------



## pdjs01 (Sep 3, 2011)

Yea more weight is not always the best idea with shoulders mate, once you do what I did and go too heavy anf F your rotator cuffs up you'll be in a world of pain and gutted cos you cant train shoulders no more, took me about 10 months to fix mine, bad times


----------



## onthebuild (Sep 3, 2011)

I do supersets, a heavy set with worse (but not dangerous) form, and slow negatives, followed by a light, slow set. I repeat this until I cant get more than 5 reps. Normally 2-3 supersets.


----------



## DiggyV (May 6, 2011)

A few points on this, dont bring the DBs back down in front of you. When they are in this position it means you can use other (non shoulder) muscles to accelerate the movement up and therefore are not actually hitting the muscle as hard as you could. Bring the DBs down to just off your thighs - this keeps constant tension in the shoulder, and the raise out using a very slight bend in your elbow, this reduces the strain on your elbow

But none of this bent arm bullshit either. The force exerted on the muscle (and therefore the power you use to lift it) is determined by the distance the weight is from the shoulder joint. If you want more on this I can explain further in terms of the Physics involved. You bend your elbows and the force required to lift the weight it is less, so while you think you may be lifting a bigger weight and therefore doing more good, you wont be doing as much good as the guy doing them with strict form and a lighter weight.

Raise them outwards from your side with a constant force. The other thing to include at the top of the motion is a slight rotation forward, like pouring a jug as this will ensure you hit the median head of the shoulder rather than the front (anterior) head.

The other reason for doing it with stricter form and lighter weights, is that the shoulder is a complex joint and is really easy to screw up badly. Incorrect form with heavy weights is going to cause trouble.

I used to do bent arm laterals with 20Kg in each arm, since restarting I train super strict, as above, and get up to 10Kg, and my shoulders are better than they have ever been.

And the reason no one posts up light weights is because you cant show off with light weights :lol:


----------



## onthebuild (Sep 3, 2011)

DiggyV said:


> A few points on this, dont bring the DBs back down in front of you. When they are in this position it means you can use other (non shoulder) muscles to accelerate the movement up and therefore are not actually hitting the muscle as hard as you could.


THIS does my head in, people bringing the weight down in front of them. To do this you have to slightly bend forward at the waist so as to allow the weight to come down in front of your stomach/groin.

This is obviously bringing in rear delts as well, as you are slightly bent over. I feel like saying just do them properly and use a lighter weight FFS :cursing:

But I don't, I just get angry about it and rant on the internet about it later :lol: :lol:


----------



## DiggyV (May 6, 2011)

onthebuild said:


> THIS does my head in, people bringing the weight down in front of them. To do this you have to slightly bend forward at the waist so as to allow the weight to come down in front of your stomach/groin.
> 
> This is obviously bringing in rear delts as well, as you are slightly bent over. I feel like saying just do them properly and use a lighter weight FFS :cursing:
> 
> But I don't, I just get angry about it and rant on the internet about it later :lol: :lol:


I know what you mean mate - it also allows a little 'shove' from straightening back out again :no: . Also there is so much bad form perpetrated by 'PTs' its unreal. I am actually having a discussion about it with the PT manager from my gym at the moment.


----------



## DiggyV (May 6, 2011)

As with all things in this game: It's not what you lift, its how you lift it.

Here endeth the lesson.

:lol:


----------



## ProjectBAM (Apr 9, 2013)

DiggyV .. you obv know your onions .. whats your shoulder workout look like out of interest? i'm looking to add some real peaks to mine but also to try and improve my posture (i sit at a desk behind a PC all day) is this routine done consistently going to help me at all??

Seated Military DB Press (3/4 sets)

Arnie DB Press (3 sets)

DB Side Lat Raises (3 sets - strict form as already mentioned earlier)

Incline Bench DB rear delt raise (3 sets)

Standing Cable Rear Delt Fly (3 sets)


----------



## G-man99 (Jul 15, 2008)

ProjectBAM said:


> DiggyV .. you obv know your onions .. whats your shoulder workout look like out of interest? i'm looking to add some real peaks to mine but also to try and improve my posture (i sit at a desk behind a PC all day) is this routine done consistently going to help me at all??
> 
> Seated Military DB Press (3/4 sets)
> 
> ...


Seems like a lot of excerises for a small muscle group.


----------



## G-man99 (Jul 15, 2008)

onthebuild said:


> THIS does my head in, people bringing the weight down in front of them. To do this you have to slightly bend forward at the waist so as to allow the weight to come down in front of your stomach/groin.
> 
> This is obviously bringing in rear delts as well, as you are slightly bent over. I feel like saying just do them properly and use a lighter weight FFS :cursing:
> 
> But I don't, I just get angry about it and rant on the internet about it later :lol: :lol:


I feel exactly the same.

They look like flying chickens with their arms bent and rocking back and forward gggggrrrrr!!

The thing is though, you can see them looking at me and smiling as they are shifting a bigger weight.

I think my shoulders tell the real story though


----------



## Kimball (Feb 26, 2012)

I don't agree on not bending at the elbows, unnecessary strain on the elbows.


----------



## xpower (Jul 28, 2009)

Kimball said:


> I don't agree on not bending at the elbows, unnecessary strain on the elbows.


I have a slight bend @ the elbow too or it's painful/uncomfortable TBH


----------



## dt36 (Jun 3, 2005)

Gave James Llewellyn's style a try and they definately hit harder than coming from the side. I definately feel this much more:


----------



## G-man99 (Jul 15, 2008)

A slight bend yes, but see plenty doing it with 90' deg bend almost


----------



## DiggyV (May 6, 2011)

Kimball said:


> I don't agree on not bending at the elbows, unnecessary strain on the elbows.





xpower said:


> I have a slight bend @ the elbow too or it's painful/uncomfortable TBH





G-man99 said:


> A slight bend yes, but see plenty doing it with 90' deg bend almost


This was my point, you should have a slight bend to reduce strain, but not the massive bend that a lot of people do it with. Yes you might lift more weight with a big bend in there, but you increase the chance of injury, and actually are not actually putting any more resistive force on at the shoulder than stricter form with a lighter weight.


----------



## KitchenGuy (Sep 25, 2012)

onthebuild said:


> THIS does my head in, people bringing the weight down in front of them. To do this you have to slightly bend forward at the waist so as to allow the weight to come down in front of your stomach/groin.
> 
> This is obviously bringing in rear delts as well, as you are slightly bent over. I feel like saying just do them properly and use a lighter weight FFS :cursing:
> 
> But I don't, I just get angry about it and rant on the internet about it later :lol: :lol:


I do swing a little with the 12.5's, i think its from watching guys like flex lewis training shoulders he always has a bend and swings

Tonight i'm gonna slow it down use a light medium weight and stay seated, i will let you know!


----------



## simonthepieman (Jun 11, 2012)

with DBs I can't get them feeling right for me. With cables I am fine


----------



## Kimball (Feb 26, 2012)

DiggyV said:


> This was my point, you should have a slight bend to reduce strain, but not the massive bend that a lot of people do it with. Yes you might lift more weight with a big bend in there, but you increase the chance of injury, and actually are not actually putting any more resistive force on at the shoulder than stricter form with a lighter weight.


Not convinced I agree, your shoulders are still lifting the same weight, but with little elbow strain when bent 45 degrees or so. But shoulders tonight so ill try, my delts have improved dramatically with heavier weights though so ill be interested to see/feel.


----------



## fullyloaded (May 23, 2011)

Controlled and heavy sets of 8 with a little drop set on 3rd set. Love shoulder days it's my favourite


----------



## onthebuild (Sep 3, 2011)

KitchenGuy said:


> I do swing a little with the 12.5's, i think its from watching guys like flex lewis training shoulders he always has a bend and swings
> 
> Tonight i'm gonna slow it down use a light medium weight and stay seated, i will let you know!


Maybe that's down to viewer expectation?

I mean if, with proper form, flex lewis could build and maintain his delts with 20kg DB lateral raises for example, but people with bad form, and far smaller are chucking up the 20kg DB's, then Flex must think to himself 'people will never believe I use 20kgs, as they use that themselves and they aren't competing BB'ers'.

So in his videos he might up the weight and slacken off on form to 1- please an audience, who think 'wow he's using 30's for lat raises!' 2- show how hes going full out, really pushing himself, working with intensity etc.

Pure speculation of course, but if you watch this video and listen to the bit where Kai talks about not being a weight lifter, and the actual weight not being important, he makes a lot of sense.


----------



## DiggyV (May 6, 2011)

Kimball said:


> Not convinced I agree, your shoulders are still lifting the same weight, but with little elbow strain when bent 45 degrees or so. But shoulders tonight so ill try, my delts have improved dramatically with heavier weights though so ill be interested to see/feel.


Mine have grown better on lighter weights, however this could be because I am old(er) and heavy shoulders means I injure more. :lol: I max out at 100Kg shoulder press and 6kg to 10kg DB laterals super-setted with bent overs, plus some cable laterals to 10Kg (cable behind) and front raises with a 16kg pre-loaded BB, not monster weights by any stretch, but I like my delt shape now and enjoy training them again!  Also no shoulder injuries for 18 months :thumb:

However genuinely the Physics shows that a lighter weight with a slight elbow bend, will put the same resistance on your shoulder as a heavier weight on a bent arm. Its to do with effective lever length.


----------



## Kimball (Feb 26, 2012)

DiggyV said:


> Mine have grown better on lighter weights, however this could be because I am old(er) and heavy shoulders means I injure more. :lol: I max out at 100Kg shoulder press and 6kg to 10kg DB laterals super-setted with bent overs, plus some cable laterals to 10Kg (cable behind) and front raises with a 16kg pre-loaded BB, not monster weights by any stretch, but I like my delt shape now and enjoy training them again!  Also no shoulder injuries for 18 months :thumb:
> 
> However genuinely the Physics shows that a lighter weight with a slight elbow bend, will put the same resistance on your shoulder as a heavier weight on a bent arm. Its to do with effective lever length.


Oh I get the physics ref levers, etc. still not sure though, my outer delts have grown massively since I went to fairly (not very) heavy side raises. And I feel the bend protects me for injury. I'm not saying they wouldn't have grown using your method, just I'm sure I would have more elbow issues. Ill definitely give it a try tonight and see what it feels like.


----------



## Super_G (Feb 20, 2012)

Swing them mate, make sure you go higher than your head and relax at the bottom of the movement being the DB infront of you and not to your side. If you can do both sides at the same time as fast as you can.

Nothing better than seeing someone trying to fly and failing when resting between sets :lol:


----------



## DiggyV (May 6, 2011)

Kimball said:


> Oh I get the physics ref levers, etc. still not sure though, my outer delts have grown massively since I went to fairly (not very) heavy side raises. And I feel the bend protects me for injury. I'm not saying they wouldn't have grown using your method, just I'm sure I would have more elbow issues. Ill definitely give it a try tonight and see what it feels like.


Cool.

I guess there could be a trade between less bend, lower weight and potentially more elbow issues (not something I have ever had), or more bend, heavier weight and potential shoulder injuries.

I Loked the James Llewellin, would really put the emphasis on the median head, angle is a bit more extreme version of where mine end up with after the rotation at the top of the movement.


----------



## resten (Apr 4, 2012)

I do pretty light weight, 2 seconds up, second pause at the top, 2 seconds down. I don't bring them back all the way to my side so the tension is constant. Seeing much better size increases now that I'm using 8 or 10kg dumbbells than when I was throwing the 24s up and down.


----------



## jonesboy (Apr 7, 2013)

Just do them nice and slow and controlled with a weight that you are comfortable with, I also like to shock them once a month. Line up 4 sets of dumbbells starting with the heaviest and work your way down to finish on the lightest with no rest. Just have a few kgs difference between each one and do around 4-5 sets, do each set to failure and wait for a great burn.


----------

