# Cut or Bulk



## ajloney (Apr 4, 2017)

Have cut down 10kg from November and feel lost some muscle mass as well. Have been training now in a 300 surplus for 3 weeks with an increase of 2.5 lbs in weight. Unsure as to whether to carry on with the clean bulk as I know its going to be a long haul before any results.

Let me know what you guys think.


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## Charlee Scene (Jul 6, 2010)

IMO I would bulk but it's up to you if you want cut to lose that last few lbs, you will put some on bulking anyway mate so personally I would bulk for a few months then have a mini cut, well done on the weight loss aswell


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## noel (Dec 30, 2005)

get BF lower first... else will just lay on fat.... your body fat doesn't look that low.....I would then add food in slowly and grow.....else youll just get bigger and fatter.... you need to add muscle....not just weight IMO.... don't mean to be harsh just honest...


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## ajloney (Apr 4, 2017)

No No, thats fair. I wouldn't post pictures and not expect criticism but its the conflicting opinions that I never know where to go. I spent 6 months losing the weight to just feel skinnier. I didn't see the need to cut further when the idea of a cut was to reveal muscle which I don't necessarily have. Ive tried lean bulking for 3 weeks now to try build muscle but i understand its a long course with expected fat gain. Thanks for advice, just unsure which way to head.


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## ajloney (Apr 4, 2017)

Im currently doing a 4 day schedule

Monday Chest/Triceps

Tuesday Back / Biceps

Wed OFF

Thursday Legs

Friday Shoulders / Abdominals

Calculator was giving my maintenance calories around 2800 so have been trying to get in around 3050/3100. Have felt stronger and added a few kg to my compound movements. As I said tho, further cutting was just shrinking my arms and just holding fat in the usual areas, chest and tummy. I know my bf could be lower but I had plateaued on the weightloss at around 80 kg coming from 90kg in November. Goals are for a fuller looking body with some definition. Thanks for advice guys.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

There's no right or wrong here. The advantage of getting leaner is it would then be easier gauge fat gain and therefore to having a gaining phase that doesn't lead to excessive fat gain. But if you're fed up with cutting and are feeling smaller than you like then switching to trying to gain for a while isn't I'm any way wrong.


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## ajloney (Apr 4, 2017)

Thanks, I think my issue was always searching for the direct approach but as you say, theres no real right or wrong, just whichever works...... Well with the cut I did drop 10kg and from doing my calculations it was too much below my maintenance, around 800 less if the tdee calculators are close to accurate. I had started getting the usual skinny fat comments that I was getting too skinny and was fading away when in actual fact I still had a belly and droopy chest underneath. I had struggled with an eating disorder for 8 years so learning the right approach to nutrition and proper weight control has been a steep learning curve for me. I am not afraid of the fat gain with a short bulk as I know deep down I can cut it back when I need to. Just all new to me, thanks guys.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

There is somewhat of a trade-off between looking good with your shirt off and 'big' with it on. You're kind of in no man's land at the minute. If you cut far enough that you start to see some muscle definition then you'd look bigger with your shirt off than you do now.


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## ajloney (Apr 4, 2017)

Oh yea for sure man, its a dark place to be stuck as most know. Think the biggest hang up like a lot of people is the looseness of my abdomen and chest. I can feel abs beneath the fat and arms look ok flexed, but standing flat I hate the way I look. So I really am stuck as to how to move forward. Up my calories to continue a cut because I was way under eating from what I can gather, or keep my surplus and try build. Catch 22


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## ajloney (Apr 4, 2017)

Oh yea for sure man, its a dark place to be stuck as most know. Think the biggest hang up like a lot of people is the looseness of my abdomen and chest. I can feel abs beneath the fat and arms look ok flexed, but standing flat I hate the way I look. So I really am stuck as to how to move forward. Up my calories to continue a cut because I was way under eating from what I can gather, or keep my surplus and try build. Catch 22


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

ajloney said:


> Oh yea for sure man, its a dark place to be stuck as most know. Think the biggest hang up like a lot of people is the looseness of my abdomen and chest. I can feel abs beneath the fat and arms look ok flexed, but standing flat I hate the way I look. So I really am stuck as to how to move forward. Up my calories to continue a cut because I was way under eating from what I can gather, or keep my surplus and try build. Catch 22


 What rate have you been losing weight over the last month? This is your best guide to whether your calorie intake is sensible, not a website approximated TDEE.


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## ajloney (Apr 4, 2017)

Last month is sort of where the weight stopped for me. I was doing prob a kg per week like 2.2 lbs. I had went from 90kg in November to 79.5 kg 3 weeks ago. Then the comments started coming about looking skinny. I just didn't have the look of someone who worked out. I was doing 2 sessions of cardio a week with 3 days of weights. Calories never went above 2100.

Im 6'1, currently 80.5kg which is around 178lbs


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## Lifesizepenguin (Jul 25, 2016)

ajloney said:


> Have cut down 10kg from November and feel lost some muscle mass as well. Have been training now in a 300 surplus for 3 weeks with an increase of 2.5 lbs in weight. Unsure as to whether to carry on with the clean bulk as I know its going to be a long haul before any results.
> 
> Let me know what you guys think.
> 
> ...


 When I did my first "bulk" I was about your BF% and I found that I got unhappy with the amount of fat you end up with considering diet wasnt dialled in at that point and was still learning a lot. It takes a LONG time to cut from 25% + to 12% properly with minimal muscle loss.

If I were you I would cut aggressively for a month - 8 Weeks (not too much mass there so I wouldnt worry about muscle loss) then maintain for a couple of weeks, then start a slow 0.5lb pw bulk until ready to cut again.

That is what I would do in your position.


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## ajloney (Apr 4, 2017)

Lifesizepenguin said:


> When I did my first "bulk" I was about your BF% and I found that I got unhappy with the amount of fat you end up with considering diet wasnt dialled in at that point and was still learning a lot. It takes a LONG time to cut from 25% + to 12% properly with minimal muscle loss.
> 
> If I were you I would cut aggressively for a month - 8 Weeks (not too much mass there so I wouldnt worry about muscle loss) then maintain for a couple of weeks, then start a slow 0.5lb pw bulk until ready to cut again.
> 
> That is what I would do in your position.


 Awesome dude to hear of someone in the same position as myself once. I haven't a clue of my current bf% but just know its not great. When you say aggressive, what does this mean exactly? I think I was under eating to get where I am now so have to work out proper deficit. I am currently eating at a 300 surplus and noting crazy or "dirty".


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

ajloney said:


> Last month is sort of where the weight stopped for me. I was doing prob a kg per week like 2.2 lbs. I had went from 90kg in November to 79.5 kg 3 weeks ago. Then the comments started coming about looking skinny. I just didn't have the look of someone who worked out. I was doing 2 sessions of cardio a week with 3 days of weights. Calories never went above 2100.
> 
> Im 6'1, currently 80.5kg which is around 178lbs


 The rate you were losing weight at was reasonable for where you started out. I don't think you should feel you did something wrong and dropped calories too low. Well done on the weight loss BTW.

What I would suggest you do for right now is take a 2 week 'diet break':

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/the-full-diet-break.html/

The break in itself will do you good but also give you chance to think about what to do next without simply being fed up of trying to lose fat being a factor.

As for the comments from others, were they from people with relatively high body fat? Sometimes seeing someone else getting leaner leads to comments like you've had as a result of their own insecurities.


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## Plate (May 14, 2015)

ajloney said:


> Last month is sort of where the weight stopped for me. I was doing prob a kg per week like 2.2 lbs. I had went from 90kg in November to 79.5 kg 3 weeks ago. Then the comments started coming about looking skinny. I just didn't have the look of someone who worked out. I was doing 2 sessions of cardio a week with 3 days of weights. Calories never went above 2100.
> 
> Im 6'1, currently 80.5kg which is around 178lbs


 Mate ignore whatever comments people are making! who gives a fvck, sounds like it's the reason you don't want to keep shedding fat when looking from the outside in that's what you should be doing

keep cutting! summers coming you can bulk up after :thumbup1:


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## ajloney (Apr 4, 2017)

Ultrasonic said:


> The rate you were losing weight at was reasonable for where you started out. I don't think you should feel you did something wrong and dropped calories too low. Well done on the weight loss BTW.
> 
> What I would suggest you do for right now is take a 2 week 'diet break':
> 
> ...


 Strangely enough, yea they were people who are always dieting and it did set me back hearing it because getting skinny isn't my plan but at the same time I don't want to look silly saying i'm building muscle when all I was doing was losing weight. Yea I had seemed to have plateaued at the 79.5 kg weight. My workout routine was carrying on the same and the food was staying the same. Just needed some advice and seems that different approaches work for different people. Cutting does seem to make the most sense as I was wanting to lose the belly and loose chest but then hearing conflicting info that bulking will just put that fat back on I was going to try the bulk....

I think a diet break is a good idea. Given my history with the eating disorder, I get obsessed with what im doing and constantly try to take on as much as possible.

Thanks for advice


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## ajloney (Apr 4, 2017)

Plate said:


> Mate ignore whatever comments people are making! who gives a fvck, sounds like it's the reason you don't want to keep shedding fat when looking from the outside in that's what you should be doing
> 
> keep cutting! summers coming you can bulk up after :thumbup1:


 Yea, my fiancée wants a buff dude, I was just fading away in her eyes, look good after a pump but shrunk back overnight.... I think cutting is whats for me like you said.....


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## ajloney (Apr 4, 2017)

Plate said:


> Mate ignore whatever comments people are making! who gives a fvck, sounds like it's the reason you don't want to keep shedding fat when looking from the outside in that's what you should be doing
> 
> keep cutting! summers coming you can bulk up after :thumbup1:


 Yea, my fiancée wants a buff dude, I was just fading away in her eyes, look good after a pump but shrunk back overnight.... I think cutting is whats for me like you said.....


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## Plate (May 14, 2015)

ajloney said:


> Yea, my fiancée wants a buff dude, I was just fading away in her eyes, look good after a pump but shrunk back overnight.... I think cutting is whats for me like you said.....


 This sh1t takes years bud she's gunna have to wait

if you diet down now so you can see definition you will look bigger than you do now with your top off, that's the illusion it gives

and plus fvck being bloated and full of water in the summer, it's uncomfortable

its up to you tho just do it for you and not what other people want/say or you will get nowhere


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## ajloney (Apr 4, 2017)

Plate said:


> This sh1t takes years bud she's gunna have to wait
> 
> if you diet down now so you can see definition you will look bigger than you do now with your top off, that's the illusion it gives
> 
> ...


 Yes man I know, I wasn't making light of what you or anyone else in here has achieved body wise, I understand it isn't happening this year, just want to get on the right track to move forward because I am interested in it and its something I want to achieve for myself. I was just going on other information of people saying, why would you cut when theres nothing really to reveal muscle wise.

I will finish the surplus today and start a fresh tomorrow. Thanks for the help


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## Lifesizepenguin (Jul 25, 2016)

ajloney said:


> Awesome dude to hear of someone in the same position as myself once. I haven't a clue of my current bf% but just know its not great. When you say aggressive, what does this mean exactly? I think I was under eating to get where I am now so have to work out proper deficit. I am currently eating at a 300 surplus and noting crazy or "dirty".


 Im sure we were all in the same position once 

I think your current perceived "muscle loss" is most likely going to be looking flat from long term caloric defecit/ lack of glycogen.

an aggressive cut for me would be 3-4lbs per week. Although @Ultrasonic's idea of a diet break is probably better in hindsight - less messy.


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## ajloney (Apr 4, 2017)

Lifesizepenguin said:


> Im sure we were all in the same position once
> 
> I think your current perceived "muscle loss" is most likely going to be looking flat from long term caloric defecit/ lack of glycogen.
> 
> an aggressive cut for me would be 3-4lbs per week. Although @Ultrasonic's idea of a diet break is probably better in hindsight - less messy.


 Yea there has been some great advice on here. Yea I think it was seeing a pic of how skinny my arms looked that did it for me lol..... Can I ask a silly question of how to know when I have cut enough? Should I see full abs or is there a certain weight for my height? I will post progress pics over the next few months if this is the approach im going to take.

Thanks dude


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## Plate (May 14, 2015)

ajloney said:


> Yes man I know, I wasn't making light of what you or anyone else in here has achieved body wise, I understand it isn't happening this year, just want to get on the right track to move forward because I am interested in it and its something I want to achieve for myself. I was just going on other information of people saying, why would you cut when theres nothing really to reveal muscle wise.
> 
> I will finish the surplus today and start a fresh tomorrow. Thanks for the help


 I know mate, I just think it can take longer by making it more complicated than it has to be, I was excactly the same jumping from cut to bulk and getting nowhere

I'm just saying this is what I would do knowing what I know now, cut till summer then bulk after, completely up to you just giving my advice pal, but you can't go wrong with the help from ultrasonic very knowledgeable and helpful


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## ajloney (Apr 4, 2017)

Plate said:


> I know mate, I just think it can take longer by making it more complicated than it has to be, I was excactly the same jumping from cut to bulk and getting nowhere
> 
> I'm just saying this is what I would do knowing what I know now, cut till summer then bulk after, completely up to you just giving my advice pal, but you can't go wrong with the help from ultrasonic very knowledgeable and helpful


 Oh for sure. Well I only left the cut 3 weeks ago and only increased 1.5 lbs so its good time to get back to cutting without yo-yoing back and forth. I will get back on to the cutting as I was enjoying seeing progress and will just ignore the comments.

Thanks dude


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

ajloney said:


> Can ask a silly question of how to know when I have cut enough? Should I see full abs or is there a certain weight for my height?


 To be helpful for gauging fat gain if trying to do a fairly lean bulk, it's best to cut until you at least start to seeing some abdominal delinition. That way you can see fat gain as you lose this.

Other posters in this thread have more personal experience of your situation than me BTW. I'm a naturally skinny guy and the only time I've got to anywhere approaching what others would call fat was when I first started training and bulked like a muppet on far too many calories. This isn't all positive for me though as my body's natural state was to have very little muscle indeed!


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## ajloney (Apr 4, 2017)

Ultrasonic said:


> To be helpful for gauging fat gain if trying to do a fairly lean bulk, it's best to cut until you at least start to seeing some abdominal delinition. That way you can see fat gain as you lose this.
> 
> Other posters in this thread have more personal experience of your situation than me BTW. I'm a naturally skinny guy and the only time I've got to anywhere approaching what others would call fat was when I first started training and bulked like a muppet on far too many calories. This isn't all positive for me though as my body's natural state was to have very little muscle indeed!


 Yea I will give this a go. I definitely felt I still had fat to lose. I will get back on it.

Thanks man


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## Mayzini (May 18, 2016)

first OP well done on where you are at right now. Weight loss is not easy regardless of what many say. Ignore others, I ballooned up to 25 stone during my injury a few years ago and it took a good 18 months to 2 years to get any where near where I was before. As @Ultrasonic says I would have a week break, go back up to maintenance levels but no worry to much dont go crazy just dont stress about it too much. I see myself as luck and unlucky I gain muscle easily but also fat the same, So after you week off hit a 6- 8 week cut, keep your calories sensible but 500 under maintenance ( make sure you calculate on where you are at now not where you started) do you weights programme, personally I would drop ab work for now, and look to a push pull lower rotation, with plenty of compound lift, depending on your activity level at the outset introduce two - three LISS sessions a week of 30 mins or so. After the first week if depending on weight loss you can either add/subtract cals or add extra cardio sessions. I see many spout about cutting aggressively thats fine if you seasoned, but ultimately for the average gym goer that just drives you nuts and isnt sustainable.

I am cutting at the moment, I run a PPL rotation with only 1 30 LISS session a week at present and dropping 2lb a week steady by managing my calories. Of I feel I am getting too low I will then introduce another cardio session as the cut goes on. you want room to maneuver as the cut goes on, by the end of this 8 weeks I will probably doing some form of cardio daily.

Once you feel you are where you want to be cut wise, go for a lean bulk, the most demoralizing thing after cutting for ages is going too heavy on calories and putting fat back on as it comes back on fast. remember the fat cell is like an empty wardrobe when we lose weight, its still there and waiting to be filled up again. so be wary and keep and eye on things, I let myself run riot over my recent bulk and have put far too much fat on i was trying a different approach it didnt work, I put on mass but thats great for my shoulders and arms but my gut is the first place it goes.

keep it up mate good work


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## ajloney (Apr 4, 2017)

Mayzini said:


> first OP well done on where you are at right now. Weight loss is not easy regardless of what many say. Ignore others, I ballooned up to 25 stone during my injury a few years ago and it took a good 18 months to 2 years to get any where near where I was before. As @Ultrasonic says I would have a week break, go back up to maintenance levels but no worry to much dont go crazy just dont stress about it too much. I see myself as luck and unlucky I gain muscle easily but also fat the same, So after you week off hit a 6- 8 week cut, keep your calories sensible but 500 under maintenance ( make sure you calculate on where you are at now not where you started) do you weights programme, personally I would drop ab work for now, and look to a push pull lower rotation, with plenty of compound lift, depending on your activity level at the outset introduce two - three LISS sessions a week of 30 mins or so. After the first week if depending on weight loss you can either add/subtract cals or add extra cardio sessions. I see many spout about cutting aggressively thats fine if you seasoned, but ultimately for the average gym goer that just drives you nuts and isnt sustainable.
> 
> I am cutting at the moment, I run a PPL rotation with only 1 30 LISS session a week at present and dropping 2lb a week steady by managing my calories. Of I feel I am getting too low I will then introduce another cardio session as the cut goes on. you want room to maneuver as the cut goes on, by the end of this 8 weeks I will probably doing some form of cardio daily.
> 
> ...


 Thanks so much for the reply dude. All of this is helpful and definitely motivation to improve from where I came from. I am getting married in November 2018 and want to be a good shape for the missus. Its been a long few years of hopping back and forth and giving up and trying again but finally gaining the knowledge and understanding from the internet and places like this. Its great to see how you have experienced similar situations and you now know how to approach things better. Appreciate the reply man, thank you. Will def make use of this forum to keep up to date with progress.


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## Mayzini (May 18, 2016)

ajloney said:


> Thanks so much for the reply dude. All of this is helpful and definitely motivation to improve from where I came from. I am getting married in November 2018 and want to be a good shape for the missus. Its been a long few years of hopping back and forth and giving up and trying again but finally gaining the knowledge and understanding from the internet and places like this. Its great to see how you have experienced similar situations and you now know how to approach things better. Appreciate the reply man, thank you. Will def make use of this forum to keep up to date with progress.


 just remember mate, weight loss etc isnt linear, the most important thing I learned is that consistency beats, being god like with your food etc for a few weeks. Train consistently, eat and monitor what you eat consistently, and over time you become accustomed to it. I personally found flexible dieting worked for me, although the majority of my food is what you would call, Clean, but If I am going out or need to eat out with business, I factor that in my being sensible with calories leading to it, implementing intermittent fasting and or carb back loading where needed.

keep consistent and from where you are now you will be in fantastic shape by next November, and be flexing on the honeymoon !! all the best buddy.


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## ajloney (Apr 4, 2017)

Mayzini said:


> just remember mate, weight loss etc isnt linear, the most important thing I learned is that consistency beats, being god like with your food etc for a few weeks. Train consistently, eat and monitor what you eat consistently, and over time you become accustomed to it. I personally found flexible dieting worked for me, although the majority of my food is what you would call, Clean, but If I am going out or need to eat out with business, I factor that in my being sensible with calories leading to it, implementing intermittent fasting and or carb back loading where needed.
> 
> keep consistent and from where you are now you will be in fantastic shape by next November, and be flexing on the honeymoon !! all the best buddy.


 Thanks man. Excellent advice


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## Mayzini (May 18, 2016)

ajloney said:


> Thanks man. Excellent advice


 trust me it have taken my to the age of 43 and nearly 15 years in and out of the gym to realise that !! lol if I could have a word with my younger self now !


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## 72670 (Sep 17, 2016)

Mayzini said:


> first OP well done on where you are at right now. Weight loss is not easy regardless of what many say. Ignore others, I ballooned up to 25 stone during my injury a few years ago and it took a good 18 months to 2 years to get any where near where I was before. As @Ultrasonic says I would have a week break, go back up to maintenance levels but no worry to much dont go crazy just dont stress about it too much. I see myself as luck and unlucky I gain muscle easily but also fat the same, So after you week off hit a 6- 8 week cut, keep your calories sensible but 500 under maintenance ( make sure you calculate on where you are at now not where you started) do you weights programme, personally I would drop ab work for now, and look to a push pull lower rotation, with plenty of compound lift, depending on your activity level at the outset introduce two - three LISS sessions a week of 30 mins or so. After the first week if depending on weight loss you can either add/subtract cals or add extra cardio sessions. I see many spout about cutting aggressively thats fine if you seasoned, but ultimately for the average gym goer that just drives you nuts and isnt sustainable.
> 
> I am cutting at the moment, I run a PPL rotation with only 1 30 LISS session a week at present and dropping 2lb a week steady by managing my calories. Of I feel I am getting too low I will then introduce another cardio session as the cut goes on. you want room to maneuver as the cut goes on, by the end of this 8 weeks I will probably doing some form of cardio daily.
> 
> ...


 This is exactly what I'm doing at the moment, I bulked from skinny got inconsistent and chased the scale.

Now cutting on the above routine x3 workouts a week followed by cardio then once I've lost enough I'm going to bulk slowly and sensible.

Do as stated OP


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## ajloney (Apr 4, 2017)

B3NCH1 said:


> This is exactly what I'm doing at the moment, I bulked from skinny got inconsistent and chased the scale.
> 
> Now cutting on the above routine x3 workouts a week followed by cardio then once I've lost enough I'm going to bulk slowly and sensible.
> 
> Do as stated OP


 How are you finding the cutting. How did you determine your calories. I originally was cutting my weight at around 2100 but I seemed to stall after the 10kg mark but from doing calculations the calories were a bit low for my weight. I'm thinking about 2300 as my maintainence is around 2800.


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## superdrol (Aug 9, 2012)

If you stall around 10kg off then either have a break and start again or take 150 off and battle on, your maintenence drops as you lose weight so you have to drop your intake aswell, a calculator will only tell you so much, if your not losing at 2100, swapping to 2300 won't help, drop to 1950 and crack on

good job so far


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

ajloney said:


> How are you finding the cutting. How did you determine your calories. I originally was cutting my weight at around 2100 but I seemed to stall after the 10kg mark but from doing calculations the calories were a bit low for my weight. I'm thinking about 2300 as my maintainence is around 2800.


 Ignore VERY approximate numbers from websites. Your rate of fat loss is what tells you whether you've got things right or not.

As above, your body adapts to lower calories over time so fat loss slowing/stalling is pretty inevitable. Some of this is reversed when you start eating more but some of it is simply down to using fewer calories to move about because you weigh less.

How fast to try to lose weight will get debated. For natural bodybuilders rates of 0.5 to 1% of body weight per week are typically suggested to limit muscle loss. I'd stick to this range personally to keep things sustainable but they are arguably more applicable to people trying to get very lean to compete.


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## 72670 (Sep 17, 2016)

ajloney said:


> How are you finding the cutting. How did you determine your calories. I originally was cutting my weight at around 2100 but I seemed to stall after the 10kg mark but from doing calculations the calories were a bit low for my weight. I'm thinking about 2300 as my maintainence is around 2800.


 Cutting feels better, less bloated etc. Finding calories you have to monitor for at least 10 days then go from there, @Sparkey gave me some good advice, like @Ultrasonic


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## ajloney (Apr 4, 2017)

Ultrasonic said:


> Ignore VERY approximate numbers from websites. Your rate of fat loss is what tells you whether you've got things right or not.
> 
> As above, your body adapts to lower calories over time so fat loss slowing/stalling is pretty inevitable. Some of this is reversed when you start eating more but some of it is simply down to using fewer calories to move about because you weigh less.
> 
> How fast to try to lose weight will get debated. For natural bodybuilders rates of 0.5 to 1% of body weight per week are typically suggested to limit muscle loss. I'd stick to this range personally to keep things sustainable but they are arguably more applicable to people trying to get very lean to compete.


 This is true. After 3 months at around 2100 I was stuck at 80kg, decided to try the bulk and upped to 2700 and dropped to 79 but figured must have not been eating enough so moved to 3000 and put on 1.5lbs in 3 weeks. Will drop to 2300 for a week or so and see how I feel. Thanks for help. This is all motivating


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## ajloney (Apr 4, 2017)

B3NCH1 said:


> Cutting feels better, less bloated etc. Finding calories you have to monitor for at least 10 days then go from there, @Sparkey gave me some good advice, like @Ultrasonic


 Thanks man. This forum has been awesome today with help and tips.


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## dmsknk (Apr 23, 2015)

I'm currently cutting and if I was you I would carry on your cut but at a very small deficit whilst implementing some kind of carb cycling that will allow you to go heavy at the gym and produce something of a 'recomp' the only problem with that is I imagine that would be the longest option for yourself. Ideally you would see some fat loss over time and some more muscle definition. I guess it would also depend a lot on genetics and current lifter status of noob or intermediate etc. Worth considering tho?


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## Fadi (Dec 14, 2010)

ajloney said:


> Have cut down 10kg from November and feel lost some muscle mass as well. Have been training now in a 300 surplus for 3 weeks with an increase of 2.5 lbs in weight. Unsure as to whether to carry on with the clean bulk as I know its going to be a long haul before any results.
> 
> Let me know what you guys think.


 I don't say this with any disrespect whatsoever. Why are we even discussing cut and bulk, when we ought to be saying hey mate, stick to some serious compound movements *for at least two years* before even considering the subject of cutting and bulling.

1. Squats

2. Deadlifts

3. Bench press

4. Military press

You do the above 3x/week and focus on increasing the weight, or increasing the rep, or decreasing the time for 4 weeks straight, then you back off for about 1 week before resuming the cycles with a stronger you than you were on week one. Repeat that for two years, than consider adding some isolation exercises as well as tweaking your nutritional macros to suit.

Giving you a different advice than the one above would make me feel somewhat less than honest with you regarding your *needs* instead of *wants. *

I wish you all the very best mate.


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## ajloney (Apr 4, 2017)

Fadi65 said:


> I don't say this with any disrespect whatsoever. Why are we even discussing cut and bulk, when we ought to be saying hey mate, stick to some serious compound movements *for at least two years* before even considering the subject of cutting and bulling.
> 
> 1. Squats
> 
> ...


 Of course, that makes great sense. I have been training off on and on over the course of 3 years but it hit a wall when my twin boys came at the end of 2014 and everything to a back seat. They are easier to handle now and have been able to stick to something for the past 6 months now so only really looking advice as I have come only as far as strength and fat loss. My goal is obviously to fill my clothes properly and loose the skinny fat look. I appreciate the advice, I make sure to incorporate the compounds into my 4 day workout week and am slowly increasing the weight.

Thanks for the reply, I appreciate the help and honesty.


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## ajloney (Apr 4, 2017)

dmsknk said:


> I'm currently cutting and if I was you I would carry on your cut but at a very small deficit whilst implementing some kind of carb cycling that will allow you to go heavy at the gym and produce something of a 'recomp' the only problem with that is I imagine that would be the longest option for yourself. Ideally you would see some fat loss over time and some more muscle definition. I guess it would also depend a lot on genetics and current lifter status of noob or intermediate etc. Worth considering tho?


 Yea I look into and consider every avenue. I am trying out a more reasonable deficit than last as using calculators I was maintaining weight around 2800 and was consuming 2000 before the weight stopped. So I am working with around 2300 to try shift some more fat before thinking of trying to build.

Thanks man


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## ILLBehaviour (Dec 20, 2014)

apart from tren, the advise i would give is hit the compound movements hard to build some muscle, at your stage you could do a full body or upper lower beginner routine, stronglifts or lyle mcdonalds bulking routine would both suit or any other similar routine, maybe stick at maintainence cals to begin with so you dont add any more unwanted fat, do this until your lifts start to stall then reaccess where your at and add extra cals as required.


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## ajloney (Apr 4, 2017)

ILLBehaviour said:


> apart from tren, the advise i would give is hit the compound movements hard to build some muscle, at your stage you could do a full body or upper lower beginner routine, stronglifts or lyle mcdonalds bulking routine would both suit or any other similar routine, maybe stick at maintainence cals to begin with so you dont add any more unwanted fat, do this until your lifts start to stall then reaccess where your at and add extra cals as required.


 Tren. I am assuming this is gear? I do hit the compounds and am trying for 12 rep / failure on as heavy as I can. Im sitting at a deficit for the time being to try get the fat off first before adding more calories. Hopefully this will get the bf down and the confidence up.

Thanks for advice man


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## ILLBehaviour (Dec 20, 2014)

ajloney said:


> Tren. I am assuming this is gear? I do hit the compounds and am trying for 12 rep / failure on as heavy as I can. Im sitting at a deficit for the time being to try get the fat off first before adding more calories. Hopefully this will get the bf down and the confidence up.
> 
> Thanks for advice man


 i was kidding about the tren,lol. just lift hard and heavy, keep progressing in weight and/or reps, rest , eat , be consistent and you'll start to notice the changes in the mirror.


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## ajloney (Apr 4, 2017)

ILLBehaviour said:


> i was kidding about the tren,lol. just lift hard and heavy, keep progressing in weight and/or reps, rest , eat , be consistent and you'll start to notice the changes in the mirror.


 lol ok. Yea that's the goal.

Thanks man.


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## ajloney (Apr 4, 2017)

2 Week Update. Been upping my cardio and reducing calories along with adding weight to my compound lifts. Nothing Crazy but the weight is slowly starting to drop after the week off. Am feeling tighter in certain areas and am happy to continue on for another 4-6 weeks on a deficit. Appreciate all the words from you guys. Few pictures just to monitor the progress.


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## ajloney (Apr 4, 2017)

Still grinding


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## Tricky (Jan 21, 2017)

Keep at it bro. Like you I've little mass I tried to go on a slow bulk but couldn't see any mass added just felt fatter

so I started cutting 5 weeks ago I'm down 17lbs and as much as I would like to eat again and try grow I know I need to get lean first so I plan to continue to cut for another 8-12 weeks or 20-25lbs whatever it takes


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