# Hardgainer Advice



## amanaboutadog (Jan 26, 2005)

Has anyone got any advice for a good training routine for a Hard Gainer ? 28 years old

I've been traing on and off for about 8 years, regular for the last 2-3 years.

I was just under 10 stone for years, found it almost impossible to make any kind of gains at all. About a year or so ago I did some gear, just 200mg deca x2 a week and some d-bol - 6 week course. Anyway I gradually upped the dose on every course my last course was 400mg Deca and 500mg Sust a week + d-bol (blue hearts) everyday - 6 week course.

I'm now 11.5 stone.

After getting on this website and talking to a few people a lot of the guys said that was too much gear for someone my height and weight and that maybe my training routine was wrong.

My appetite does let me down although I'm getting about 3000 - 3500 cals a day.

So I'm gonna go back to the drawing board. Is there anyone who is like me and makes almost no gains while training unless their on the gear. And what routine would you recomend I try ????


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## megatron (Apr 21, 2004)

I was the original HARD gainer, skinny as hell, no bodyfat etc....

Teh trick is to eat like a pig...

Lift very heavy and sleep lots.

To elaborate:

you should eat at least every 2 hours, not massive meals of course but allways with a nice amount of protien + natural oils (fish oil, olive oil or omega-3).

Try to eat meals with decent meat in them, up the protien in all of the normal meals you eat.

eat lots of eggs, full fat milk, butter, chicken, turkey, beef, cheese (not too much of this though).

Eat cottage cheese or steak before bed time.

Drink a mental amount of protien + carbs straight after a workout.

Never let 3 hours pass without eating.

Sleep 8 hours a night.

Allways allways make sure you rest your muscles from one training session to another or you will overtrain them. It's best to have more days between session than less.


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## Truewarrior1 (Jan 27, 2005)

i have a friend who is a "hardgainer" and although i believe 50% of being a hardgainer is psychological there is obviously truth in that some people have faster metabolisms.

it depends on what you want to do, dirty bulk or clean bulk if you're dirty bulking i'd shoot for 4500 calories a day(bit extreme but hey) and if you're clean bulkin 3500 clean cals.

megatron mentioned the sorts of foods you should be consuming, you may want to buy a "mass gainer" which is basically a high calorie meal, depending on the brand they can be good for you. i prefer real food myself.

the key to training is to keep the body guessing, the human body is a amazing thing, it adapts exceptionally quickly, therefore i would plan your training in 4 week cycles.

lots of compounds and reps 4-6 for 4 weeks (deadlifts,squats,bench are KEY)

then mainly compounds and throw in some isolations and reps 6 to 10 for 4 weeks

keep changing exercises etc, switch it up!

good luck


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## big (Sep 14, 2004)

Try either one of Mike Mentzer's routines, or a two-day split each week (3-4 days rest between sessions).

For example:

Session 1:

Incline Bench Press 2x8

Barbell Rows 2x8

Military Press 2x8

Tricep pushdown 1x8

Bicep curl 1x8

Session 2:

Oly ATG Squats 2x10

SLDL 2x10

Calf Raise 2x20

Weighted Crunches 2x10

(all after 1-2 easy warm-ups)

If you don't gain on that, keep lowering the volume until you start gaining. You should be able to lift more weight each session. Once you hit a major plateau (after sorting out your volume), change up the exercises.

As a hardgainer, you need extremely low volume, extremely high calories and plenty of rest. Most hardgainers get excellent results from Mike Mentzer's routines, and from the 20-rep squat routine. Hardgainers often respond well to pre-exhaust also.

You mentioned you followed a Mentzer routine on one of your other threads - which one did you do?


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## Killerkeane (Nov 9, 2003)

im the same way mate. Dont kid yourself into thinking that you cannnot gain weight without gear. If you want it bad enough then you have to dedicate yourself to eating and lifting. Up the protein, up the cals and eat every 2 hours (like everone else said)


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## particleastro (Aug 18, 2004)

The Original Hard Gainer? I thought that wa Charles Atlas, or was he the Original 98lbs weakling. Somthing anyway...

Man, if you cant gain youve gotta eat, eat, eat. After 5 years of training, admitidley only seriously for about 2, Ive only just started gaining now. My best advice to you, buy Arnies 'The New Encyclopeida of Modern Bodybuilding', then get Chef X's 'Diatia:Eating'. Youll then have all you need to know, and the rest is up to you...

John


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## rosie_theman (Feb 19, 2005)

I'm not saying im the utmost expert on making gains, but I do know the main idea behind gains is going balls to the wall in the gym, getting good sleep, and eating like a horse. Sleep and workouts compliment each other, so those are very important. I find that stripping your sets in the gym are good for strength/mass gains, im sure you have already done this quite a lot, but whenever i feel something is lacking i always strip that at least two sets per workout


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

Get less sleep and you will gain weight. Analysis of the sleep-deprived subjects' blood showed lower levels of the hormone leptin, which tells us we're full, and higher levels of the hormone ghrelin, which tells us we're hungry. 20/20


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Lower the volume and up the food.

Sorry, but overtraining or not enough food will be your demise.

You can get more benefit with good food and less gear for sure.

Post your diet and routine and lets critique it for you.

Im sure we can tweak the numbers for you and this will be a step in the right direction.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

big said:


> As a hardgainer, you need extremely low volume, extremely high calories and plenty of rest. Most hardgainers get excellent results from Mike Mentzer's routines, and from the 20-rep squat routine. Hardgainers often respond well to pre-exhaust also.
> 
> You mentioned you followed a Mentzer routine on one of your other threads - which one did you do?


Bump this for sure.....Great advice here for sure :bounce:

Solid info!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Deano1 (Apr 5, 2004)

big said:


> Try either one of Mike Mentzer's routines, or a two-day split each week (3-4 days rest between sessions).
> 
> For example:
> 
> ...


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## ChefX (Jan 10, 2005)

The hardgainer thing is usually a myth, in 99% of the cases I have seen its because the people perceive what they are doing is correct when its not.

Pick a system, follow it 100%. Parrillo & RgeimenX comes to mind (yeah had to give someone elses as well LOL)


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## big (Sep 14, 2004)

ChefX said:


> The hardgainer thing is usually a myth, in 99% of the cases I have seen its because the people perceive what they are doing is correct when its not.


When people say "hardgainer", they probably really actually mean "normal gainer" (well that's what I mean anyway) - someone who is genetically "average" (whatever that means). This is someone who isn't capable of recovering from a flex magazine style 16-20 set routine 4 times a week, and actually gets infinitely better gains from a 2-3 day 8-10 set split.

In reality, 90%+ of people are "hardgainers" in my opinion. If they weren't, then it would be "easy" to gain 0.5lbs a week consistently - which means after 4 years of lifting, your average 170lb guy becomes a ripped 270lbs... and we all know that ain't true!


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## ChefX (Jan 10, 2005)

big said:


> ...it would be "easy" to gain 0.5lbs a week consistently - which means after 4 years of lifting, your average 170lb guy becomes a ripped 270lbs... and we all know that ain't true!


270 no I agree not for most but the 1/2 lb or more gain a week "naturally" is quite doable if you do things right (not 1/2 way or guessing).

26 lbs in a year to your gentic potential is a very doable reality even without drugs. For most of you that would be 230 to 240 ripped.


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

ChefX said:


> 26 lbs in a year to your gentic potential is a very doable reality even without drugs. For most of you that would be 230 to 240 ripped.


No way. Impossible without drugs. Nobody can put on 26 lbs in a year.


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## ChefX (Jan 10, 2005)

winger said:


> No way. Impossible without drugs. Nobody can put on 26 lbs in a year.


Why not?


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## Killerkeane (Nov 9, 2003)

if we are talking about lean muscle mass then no, i dont think its possible.


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## ChefX (Jan 10, 2005)

Rather than create a thread of he said you said I'll switch my points

What do you know (as in what have you seen in person, NO guessing here) is the largest amount a natural gainer can gain in 1 year (no drugs)?


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

1984 Lee Haney. 5'11" at 247.

1991 Dorian Yates. 5'11" at 245.

1993 Dorian Yates. 5'11" at 257.

If the pros cant do it then what makes you think we can clean?</O

<OWe are talking lean muscle mass here. Not just pounds.</O

<OI have never seen anybody ever put on the kind of muscle clean.</O

<ONow if the guy just came out of a concentration camp and started eating and training maybe. But we are not talking about those kind of guys now are we.</O


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## ChefX (Jan 10, 2005)

I'll repeat the question

What do you know (as in what have you seen in person, NO guessing here) is the largest amount a natural gainer can gain in 1 year (no drugs)?


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

Maybe 10, but closer to 5 lbs. I would imagine 10 pounds of pure muscle would be over an inch on your arms.


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## Killerkeane (Nov 9, 2003)

a stone gained is an inch on your arms i have read


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

Killerkeane said:


> a stone gained is an inch on your arms i have read


Yea but is that a stone of pure muscle?


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## ChefX (Jan 10, 2005)

I would say that 5 to 10 lbs of muscle gain per year for a natural trainee is the norm for most gyms. Yeah, that is most likely. But it is not the potential. i have been training proffesionally for 22 years now and if a client came to me and wanted to bulk up with lean mass and I was only able to put 10 lbs on him in a year... I would quit.

At my now 276 my arms are 21 inches so I wouldn't quite set the math at that.

I'd say maybe for every 15 lbs you gain an inch. But that would be gentics there, I never have carried the arm size compared to things such as my legs and back.

As far as thos epros the weights your listeing are omp weights and that is a good 7 to 10% below the norm for a person, so thats another 25 to 30 lbs hence they would be almost 40lbs heavier than genetic potential (back then) which is correct.


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

The only reason I posted the pro's is because they carry very simular bf. Having a 20" arm and being 25% bf is one thing. Having a 20" arm and being 6% bf is another.

If a trainer said he could put 10 pounds of pure muscle on me in one year he would be a God.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

winger said:


> No way. Impossible without drugs. Nobody can put on 26 lbs in a year.


I agree no way.

Maybe something other than muscle.

I think 10 lbs would be about the max one could put on in a year. Even that seems a bit high to me.


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## ChefX (Jan 10, 2005)

I say you can.

This is a hard post for me to let go of, but I will.

cheers


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Ive never seen anyone natural put on 10 lbs of muscle a year without using gear, yet alone 26 lbs.


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

ChefX said:


> I say you can.
> 
> This is a hard post for me to let go of, but I will.
> 
> cheers


Are you letting go because you cant come up with facts?


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## SD (Sep 3, 2004)

ChefX said:


> I would say that 5 to 10 lbs of muscle gain per year for a natural trainee is the norm for most gyms. Yeah, that is most likely. But it is not the potential. i have been training proffesionally for 22 years now and if a client came to me and wanted to bulk up with lean mass and I was only able to put 10 lbs on him in a year... I would quit.


Could I ask, is this achievable using the Diatia/alchemy/opportunitas or does it require something else?

SD


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Look at 26 lbs of meat and tell me that this is obtainable.

The body does not even like being in an anabolic environment.

Goes against HOMEOSTASIS.


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## ChefX (Jan 10, 2005)

SD yes

other two - try it


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## Deano1 (Apr 5, 2004)

Originally Posted by James.Titor

Life ****s on you from time to time, suck it up and ****ing deal with it. I am an ecto, a 'hardgainer'. Yet I still manage to put on 60lbs this last 12 months. Infact, I am in the top 10, if not the top 5 strongest people on this board, and all that, after 12 months. Why? 'Cos I don't make excuses

he put on 60lbs in 12mths remember ????


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## ChefX (Jan 10, 2005)

we were talking natural


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

The closer you are to your ceiling of adaptation, the slower your gains will be. In other words, someone who's been training for 10 years will gain muscle more slowly than someone who is just starting out.

Here is a study that kinda sides with ChefX. Snipped here.

The Colgan Institute of Nutritional Sciences (located in San Diego, CA) run by Dr Michael Colgan PHD, a leading sport nutritionist explains that in his extensive experience, the most muscle gain he or any of his colleagues have recorded over a year was 18 1/4 lbs. Dr Colgan goes on to state that "because of the limiting rate of turnover in the muscle cells it is impossible to grow more than an ounce of new muscle each day." In non-complicated, mathematical terms, this would equate to roughly 23 pounds in a year! Keep in mind that high-level athletes are the subjects of these studies.

Doesn't say if they were clean or not eather.


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

Deano1 said:


> Originally Posted by James.Titor
> 
> Life ****s on you from time to time, suck it up and ****ing deal with it. I am an ecto, a 'hardgainer'. Yet I still manage to put on 60lbs this last 12 months. Infact, I am in the top 10, if not the top 5 strongest people on this board, and all that, after 12 months. Why? 'Cos I don't make excuses
> 
> he put on 60lbs in 12mths remember ????


Oh you mean the guy that got banned..............lol


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Yah, the remark of being one of the strongest on the board was bull**** too.


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

ChefX said:


> At my now 276 my arms are 21 inches so I wouldn't quite set the math at that.


Hey ChefX, post a pic holding your Diatia and Alchemy books............please. 

I want to see what Dr. RobX looks like!


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## SD (Sep 3, 2004)

Winger,

Stop baiting Chef ya bum!

The article you posted was a good read but at the end it does say:

Keep in mind that it's physiologically impossible to gain more than one pound of lean muscle per week. For most weight-gainers, .5 pounds per week would be an even more realistic goal as they reach their genetic limit

One pound a week is still 52 pounds a year, .5 pounds a week is still 26lb a year! this is exactly what Chef quoted in his original post , half a pound a week to your genetic potential and your reference agrees with him from what I can see even though the single study it cited found 18 1/4 pounds to be the upper limit, it was only one study! and it doesn't say with whom except athletes, maybe they were distance runners??

From what I can see, 26lb may seem far fetched, but it is physiologically possible and it would seem even do-able if your article is correct.

This has been a really interesting thread, the stuff you guys post really fans my enthusiasm for knowledge.

SD


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

winger said:


> in his extensive experience, the most muscle gain he or any of his colleagues have recorded over a year was 18 1/4 lbs.


Sorry, but I got to go by facts. I have never seen it. There for untill I see it, it dosn't exist. Even 18 1/4 is hard for me to fathom. It also dosn't say if the subject was clean or not.


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## Cookie (Sep 14, 2009)

Ok going from personel experiance

When I first started training I put 28lbs on in the first year of training with no added signs of body fat,take in mind that I was 16 at the time.

The following year i added another 14lbs.

Now my body imo was primed for this because I was new to the sport and if I do say myself very underweight and on the rather short side back then

4 foot 10 @ 91lbs in weight

So idea l for a big push ingaining.

Now the article didnt say wether they were using seasoned athletes or relative newbies or wether the people in mind were just training or doing a full days hard graft 8-10hrs aday like most normal people.

As to wether someone can gain 26lbs of just solid tissue does take some taking in especially as hacks points out what 26lbs of meat looks like in front of you.

Also the workload and physical effort alone would be tremendous.

Perfect eating sleeping training and overall lifestyle 365 days of the year never having any injury or ailment,plus also taking int acount that the body reproduces all its cells over a set amount of time to keep itself healthy(if memory serves me correct).

Now taking all that into account you also have to look at what a gain in weight of that nature would but upon the heart and cardio system,as we all know that when we gain weight we get the huffs and puffs till we get used to carrying it.

could it happen?????

Maybe to a newbie but to me at this moment in time I just cant see it happening to a seasoned bodybuilder with a regualar lifestyle like the rest of us with kids work & a mortgage.


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## SD (Sep 3, 2004)

Ok Winger,

This is the first Journal I checked on rate of gain of skeletal muscle in response to resistance training. I got it here http://bjsm.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/37/6/543#T1

Basically during in a 16 week study of healthy young men (not athletes note), who exercised *three* times a week, using *five* exercises, with 8-12 reps to failure and *three* sets, the experimenter observed an increase of 4.2kg of skeletal muscle. This equates to just over .5lb per week or just over 30 lb a year if the growth were to continue at that rate.

Notice that the programme has similarities to Chefs proposed opportunitas, which will include a total body workout twice a week.

So like it or not science isn't on your side Winger and I too thought it was 'far fetched' and this as I said was only the first one I looked at.

Maybe we are all doing something wrong? the exercises for example were, Three lower body (squat, knee extension, and knee flexion) and two upper body (bench press and latissimus dorsi pull down) exercises were performed. How many of us would hand that programme to a noob and say do that three times a week mate and you will put on 30lb in a year!! not me, time to re-think?


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## big (Sep 14, 2004)

REALLY nice link SD.

But wait - just because some newbies who NEVER weight trained before managed to gain 4kg of muscle in 16 weeks, it doesn't mean that they would be able to keep up that rate of growth, or even a fraction of it, for a full year. I know myself, like many others, in the first 3 months or so of lifting you get some awesome gains, and then you tend to plateau.

I would love to see a study where you get intermediate strength training people (say lifters with 2 years experience) and see how much they gain in a full year. Personally I would be shocked if you could get 26lbs of LEAN mass, or even half of that, onto them.

I do agree that there's a lot to be said for full body training several times a week though - although it would have to be not to failure most of the time. Kind of like Bill Starr's suggestions of a full body 3 times/week - heavy, light then medium. SOME (not all) people respond REALLY nicely to this type of training.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Mick Hart suggests 3 full bodyworkouts a week.


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## big (Sep 14, 2004)

hackskii said:


> Mick Hart suggests 3 full bodyworkouts a week.


I thought he had his kid on a pretty standard bodypart split?

I am sure planning on trying 3 full bodyworkouts each week next:

http://www.deepsquatter.com/strength/archives/manrodt4.htm

Scroll down to the "Bill Starr Power Routine". I think there's a lot to be said for that type of training for some people. Low volume (given that only 1 set of the 5 is a true workset), not to failure, high frequency, big compound lifts. Works like a charm for some.


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

Ok then. I stand corrected. You can gain 0.5 lbs of muscle a week for a limited amount of time. Only if the individual is new to training and is doing the perfect routine with the perfect diet and sleep.

Dont forget the Dr did say 18 1/4 was the most he has seen in a year. So I doubt that 16 week study could keep the same results for a year straight.

If gains could remain like that for years on end you would pass up every Mr. Olympia out there. All done clean. Bollocks I say!


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## Captain Hero (Jun 13, 2004)

Good read


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## SA12 (Jun 2, 2004)

big said:


> REALLY nice link SD.
> 
> But wait - just because some newbies who NEVER weight trained before managed to gain 4kg of muscle in 16 weeks, it doesn't mean that they would be able to keep up that rate of growth, or even a fraction of it, for a full year. I know myself, like many others, in the first 3 months or so of lifting you get some awesome gains, and then you tend to plateau.


Exactly what happened to me anyway... I thought this was pretty much the same for everyone.


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## ChefX (Jan 10, 2005)

Gains are always faster in the bggining if trained/dieted right... problem is most guys have trained wrong for years and as such when they do train right they get results like a bigginer should for the first few months.

As far as constant gains... at most I have ever seen constant is 18 months, the guy did everything perfect and went from a normal joe to ripped huge then walled it... aka his natural wall. Even though Mentzer was a quack I do beleive he was right in that you can hit your potential in 18 months and should at the very longest in 36. Over 36 months to hit your best and you know darn well your falling off the wagon or doing things wrong.


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