# Dead lift - noticeing my knees kind of bend for the second time on the way up



## The Sweeney (May 8, 2014)

Nailed my PB at 170kg tonight and I'm really pleased, but watching the video back I notice my knees almost bend slightly for a second time once the bar is above the knee level - it's particularly noticeable on the 3rd and final rep.

What's causing this?

My mental cues as I begin the pull are to drive through my heels, push with my legs, then thrust forwards with the hips - what my body actually does is use whatever muscles it can in whatever order it can to get the weight up, so dunno if what I'm instructing is actually happening, but that's what get's the bar up.

So, the additional knee bend?






That's me absolutely balls to the wall their ^ if I'd added collar or clips, I'd have not made it. :lol:


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## Northern Lass (Aug 10, 2011)

I would practice your form first with lighter weight. First off you need to get them hips down and back straight..Then push through to the floor with your legs and then squeeze your **** whilst locking out.

Are you doing much mobility work?


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## seandog69 (Mar 8, 2013)

looks like its hitching

once youve got the weight up with the legs your back is still bent and your almost trying to cheat shrug the weight into the lock out imo

but what do i know, i look like a klingon in my avi

Qapla'


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## The Sweeney (May 8, 2014)

Northern Lass said:


> I would practice your form first with lighter weight. First off you need to get them hips down and back straight..Then push through to the floor with your legs and then squeeze your **** whilst locking out.
> 
> Are you doing much mobility work?


Been doing mobility work and building up from only 60kg for 9 months.

A few videos I've seen, and one in particular from Candito suggest the weight will only come off the floor when the hips are high and to not waste effort trying to lift with low hips as they always end up rising to the most efficient lift point anyway, so might as well start from that position.... I'll have to dig it out.


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## The Sweeney (May 8, 2014)

seandog69 said:


> looks like its hitching
> 
> once youve got the weight up with the legs your back is still bent and your almost trying to cheat shrug the weight into the lock out imo
> 
> ...


Could be.

Any mental cues I can use during the lift to prevent this?


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## MrTwisted (Sep 14, 2014)

seandog69 said:


> looks like its hitching
> 
> once youve got the weight up with the legs your back is still bent and your almost trying to cheat shrug the weight into the lock out imo
> 
> ...


romuluSngan Hol yIjatlh. He'So' QIchlIj


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## The Sweeney (May 8, 2014)

TommyBananas said:


> @The Sweeney
> 
> This one :E


That's the one - cheers Mr Banana.

Do you have any thoughts on the double knee bend and how to cue myself away from repeating - where do you think the muscular strength is missing to have to do that compensation style movement?

You know me - just looking for ways to improve. Iffy form or otherwise, I'm stoked I got to 170kg.


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## seandog69 (Mar 8, 2013)

MrTwisted said:


> romuluSngan Hol yIjatlh. He'So' QIchlIj


my ears are not pointed and i did not stutter mother****er


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## MrTwisted (Sep 14, 2014)

seandog69 said:


> my ears are not pointed and i did not stutter mother****er


Lmfao

Who knew klingon and bodybuilding would work so well together


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## seandog69 (Mar 8, 2013)

The Sweeney said:


> Could be.
> 
> Any mental cues I can use during the lift to prevent this?


dunno about cues but id start with deloading

if form breaks its normally to do with overload, if you practice more with a lesser weight and can get the movement down to rights then it should transfer and come more natural when maxing


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## The Sweeney (May 8, 2014)

TommyBananas said:


> I've had the similar thing in the past. Not sure why I did it, or how I fixed it, just happened sometimes, it's to make up for something being a little weaker than it should be at that certain point of the lift so you're compensating I guess. If you get a tiny bit stronger I bet it'd go away lifting at 170kg again.


Cheers dude.

My plan is to get to 180kg - purely for the aesthetic appeal of 4 plates a side, then stick at that weight and gradually increase the reps over time. 180kg is heavy enough for anyone, so if in 12 months I can do 8-10 quality reps for instance, that should add a decent slab of beef to my modest frame.


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## The Sweeney (May 8, 2014)

> ouch I hurt my back just watching you!


Upper back rounding?


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## Prince Adam (Mar 17, 2012)

Your back isn't set in the right position to begin with. That's why the knee thing happens as you can't lock out when you should be.


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## C33G (Feb 23, 2014)

Try putting your feet closer together to maximise your power, straighten the feet a little and create tension in yor hamstrings before you start the pull. Plenty of room for improvement so that is a very good thing.

Also at your starting position get your scapula directly above the bar - metal queue would be to get more of your body aka shoulders infront of the bar, this should help the back rounding and knee troubles.


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## The Sweeney (May 8, 2014)

Prince Adam said:


> Your back isn't set in the right position to begin with. That's why the knee thing happens as you can't lock out when you should be.


What adjustments should I make?


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## The Sweeney (May 8, 2014)

C33G said:


> Try putting your feet closer together to maximise your power, straighten the feet a little and create tension in yor hamstrings before you start the pull. Plenty of room for improvement so that is a very good thing.
> 
> Also at your starting position get your scapula directly above the bar - metal queue would be to get more of your body aka shoulders infront of the bar, this should help the back rounding and knee troubles.


What I found on previous sets was that the bar was hardly touching my chins on the way up and I could feel stess in my back more, so I adjusted and kind of pulled backwards a little as I pulled, making sure the bar dragged up my chins - this made the lift feel a little easier.


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## The Sweeney (May 8, 2014)

> Forms just poor fella. Your putting your back in a vulnerable position. Drop the weight and concentrate on good form (back kept straight not rounded). Once you have cracked the form slowly increase the weight. Form goes out the window when the weight takes over. Slowly slowly catchy monkey.


I'm led to believe upper back rounding is ok, but I'll try and engage my hams and keep the lower back straighter as I pull.


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## Prince Adam (Mar 17, 2012)

The Sweeney said:


> What adjustments should I make?


Back straighter

Lock your blades into the pocket

Squeeze chest up before take off


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## The Sweeney (May 8, 2014)

Prince Adam said:


> Back straighter
> 
> Lock your blades into the pocket
> 
> Squeeze chest up before take off


Thanks, noted.

I'm noticing that as I initially pull, for some reason, the weight wonlt come off the floor with 'leg effort'. In my mind, I want to lock my back at the set up position, and keep it like that as my legs drive the bar off the floor, but for some reason, the bar won't rise until my legs are almost straight.

I wonder why that is?

What gives my back the strength to lift the weight when the legs are almost straight, but not when the legs are bent and 'driving'?

Fascinating stuff.


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## Verno (Apr 18, 2008)

Op how often are you trying for pb's?


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## seandog69 (Mar 8, 2013)

The Sweeney said:


> What adjustments should I make?


what i would suggest is dropping your ass and lean back a bit, keep the head high and your chest proud

this should cause the weight to travel in a fairly straight path up the centre of your feet and closer to the legs, dont forget, the deathlift is as much a push as a pull lift

and again, reduce weight til form is bang on and repeat


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## Verno (Apr 18, 2008)

The Sweeney said:


> Thanks, noted.
> 
> I'm noticing that as I initially pull, for some reason, *the weight wonlt come off the floor with 'leg effort'.* In my mind, I want to lock my back at the set up position, and keep it like that as my legs drive the bar off the floor, but for some reason, the bar won't rise until my legs are almost straight.
> 
> ...


Any ideas what weight you can leg press?


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## The Sweeney (May 8, 2014)

Verno said:


> Op how often are you trying for pb's?


I've been doing starting strength, so started with 60kg as per the program and have added 2.5kg to the bar each session since for 9 months so every session from day one has been a PB - but that's what SS is, right? 2.5kg added each session, for each exercise, each time you go to the gym.

So I suppose the answer is - every time - 170kg just happens to be where I'm at right now.


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## seandog69 (Mar 8, 2013)

TommyBananas said:


> Telling Sweeney to drop his hips further is not the answer people


screw you hippy, it might be

let me digress, dropping his ass, althought not the cause of his issue, may reduce the use of h is back and therefore cause him to utilise his legs more in the lift and on lighter weights will make the feeling more natural and translate the method better into higher weights


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## The Sweeney (May 8, 2014)

Verno said:


> Any ideas what weight you can leg press?


My squat is dog-sh1t due to form issues I've been struggling with since digital watches were cool and have been at a plateau of 100kg for a while now - as I approach parallel, the weight of the bar just wants to fold me in half and have my knees touch my shoulders.

Leg press - haven;t done this in anger for ages. Did some light weight 45 degree machine press work tonight but it was only 140kg for 3 sets of 12 just to see how I was doing - there was plenty left in the tank. I could probably press 250kg for 3 at the moment at a guess?


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## seandog69 (Mar 8, 2013)

TommyBananas said:


> I see your point; i just don't think itss the answer. I mean look at Pete Rubish Deadlift..
> 
> 
> 
> ...


and while i see your point i hereby refute it thusly, he aint pete rubish

you can not tell a novice lifter to copy a world class pro, gotta stand before ya can run sir


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## seandog69 (Mar 8, 2013)

TommyBananas said:


> Absolutely he is not Pete Rubish - but it's hard for a guy with Sweeneys leverages to sit back with his hips so much, he'll fvckin fall over, lol.


lol i never said summersault, i said sit back *more*, c'mon thomas dont be like this


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## The Sweeney (May 8, 2014)

Guys - I really appreciate all the answers and opinions.

I'm a new lifter (15 year break) and not too proud to admit I'm struggling with form on my squat and dead lift. I'm reading every book, watching as many videos on youtube and seeking as much advice on this wonderful forum as possible.

As a noob, it is tricky sometimes as there is a lot of often conflicting advice from three different experts which can lead an inexperienced lifter like myself spinning my wheels on what direction to take.

My instinct, is that for some reason, when I pull, the bar ain't leaving the floor when my legs are doing the initial pull - the reason for this is not clear to me yet.

Once my hips are (too?) high, then my back seems to have the strength to get the bar in the air, yet when my hips are low and the legs are doing the work, my back doesn't appear to have the strength to keep straight and have my shoulders lift at the same rate as my hips.

What puzzles me though is that my back does have the strength to lift it, otherwise I'd not get the rep done, but what I'm trying to work out is why it doesn't have the strength earlier in the pull?

Could it be a different factor that is just presenting itself this particular way?


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## seandog69 (Mar 8, 2013)

The Sweeney said:


> Guys - I really appreciate all the answers and opinions.
> 
> I'm a new lifter (15 year break) and not too proud to admit I'm struggling with form on my squat and dead lift. I'm reading every book, watching as many videos on youtube and seeking as much advice on this wonderful forum as possible.
> 
> ...


in my mind i dont pull the bar from the floor, i push it with my legs

i try to engage my lats to keep my arms and back in the same position as i start until the bar is past my knees then i begin the pull phase


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## The Sweeney (May 8, 2014)

Dose this have any relevance to me?


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## The Sweeney (May 8, 2014)

seandog69 said:


> in my mind i dont pull the bar from the floor, i push it with my legs
> 
> i try to engage my lats to keep my arms and back in the same position as i start until the bar is past my knees then i begin the pull phase


To be honest, I've never thought about my lats before.

One for the bank.


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## The Sweeney (May 8, 2014)

> Start position
> 
> View attachment 167359
> 
> ...


Am I correct in saying that the mid lift shots are very similar, but the start of the pull is a turd?


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## seandog69 (Mar 8, 2013)

The Sweeney said:


> To be honest, I've never thought about my lats before.
> 
> One for the bank.


yeah it helped me some, also found doing this takes some strain of the arms that you didnt realise was there til doing so

tbh just try each of the tips pppl have gave you because unlike rippeltoad, none of us are on his leve, we are just using personal, anecdotal experiences to try and solve your issue

what may have helped and worked for us may hinder you more, just see which works and smash them PB's


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## The Sweeney (May 8, 2014)

C33G said:


> metal queue would be to get more of your body aka shoulders in front of the bar, this should help the back rounding and knee troubles.





seandog69 said:


> i said sit back *more*


Sorry if I'm being dozy here.... am I too far back or forwards?


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## The Sweeney (May 8, 2014)

seandog69 said:


> yeah it helped me some, also found doing this takes some strain of the arms that you didnt realise was there til doing so
> 
> tbh just try each of the tips pppl have gave you because unlike rippeltoad, none of us are on his leve, we are just using personal, anecdotal experiences to try and solve your issue
> 
> what may have helped and worked for us may hinder you more, just see which works and smash them PB's


Gotcha, thanks.


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## C33G (Feb 23, 2014)

IMO - raise your hips at your start position, they should rise as the bar leaves the floor. If your hips rise before the bar has left the floor your wasting energy. As well as this get infront of the bar - this will insure your centre of gravity is directly above the bar increasing power output...

speaking from my own experience & knowledge, im 88kg 1rm was 280kg december 2014...


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## seandog69 (Mar 8, 2013)

The Sweeney said:


> Sorry if I'm being dozy here.... am I too far back or forwards?


too far forward for me, should never be over the bar


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## The Sweeney (May 8, 2014)

TommyBananas said:


> You are correct, the problem with your rounding as mentioned before its because your hips fly up, and then you're pulling just at the wrong time (which you've established).
> 
> I'm gonna go out on a longsshot here and next time you're at the gym (it helped me) try standing further away from the bar, eg; if your shins touch the bar now, stand so they're about half aninch away) and record it and let me see it.


My set up is normally to make the bar directly mid foot which puts about an inch of space between the bar and my shin. I then bend forwards until I can grip the bar - legs still straight, and then bend the knees until the shins touch the bar, then pull, trying to keep the bar touching the chins all the way up.

On one of my warm ups at about 140kg I believe, the bar didn't touch my legs until it was level with my knees and it felt awkward and inefficient - like my lower back was taking too much shear. Is that what you mean or have I misunderstood?


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## The Sweeney (May 8, 2014)

C33G said:


> As well as this get in front of the bar - this will insure your centre of gravity is directly above the bar increasing power output...





seandog69 said:


> too far forward for me, should never be over the bar


My head hurts.

Thanks for your input fellas, I'm off to bed now and will revisit this thread in the morning.

Really grateful.


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## Verno (Apr 18, 2008)

> One word tommy......Advanced
> 
> The Op needs to build strength in his mid section. Drop the weight, keep the back straight and bang the reps out. Then increase the weight. The back rounds as the mid section is no longer strong/big enough to cope with the BIG weights the guys in the vids you posted are lifting. They might say otherwise but hey it is what it is.


I think the op's issue is with core and leg strength, fcuk the SS stuff! If I'm going for a PB its once every 4-6 weeks not every session!

Your gonna hurt your back.

Drop the weight back to 80% or less then rep the hell out of it for 5-8 sets until your form starts to improve more. As it stands your lower back is doing all of the work as your legs aren't strong enough to cope with the weights your lifting.

More leg and core work too! @The Sweeney


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## The Sweeney (May 8, 2014)

TommyBananas said:


> My head hurt when I was trying to fix mine too. Goodluck buddy have a good sleep too! haha.


What was hurting my head was one forum member saying get back and the other saying get forward. <crying like a little girl>



Verno said:


> I think the op's issue is with core and leg strength, fcuk the SS stuff! If I'm going for a PB its once every 4-6 weeks not every session!
> 
> Your gonna hurt your back.
> 
> ...


I make you right... but, I need to understand a few things better.

Trying to get my head round the initial pull, my legs are straightening which is raising my hips - all good so far..... except the bar isn't lifting off the floor.

The reason the bar isn't lifting off the floor is because my back can't keep the straight back and angle it is at the start, which suggests that my mid and upper back / core is too weak.

Yet..... eventually, (too late in the lift?) my back suddenly is strong enough to pull the weight up, albeit with less than ideal form.

What I'm trying to get my head around is why is my back stong enough once I've got my hips raised, yet not strong enough at the start of the pull?

Is it because I'm not tight enough in my core and am focusing too much on the leg press element without resisting the load on my back and when the hips and legs have straightened a fair bit, by brain then transfers effort to the back which was missing initially, the then get the weight up, which then once almost there, transfers back to the legs creating that double bend semi-cheat thing going on?

Or.... does all that contradict Canditos advice where I should start the pull with the hips already high and in the position that they are when the bar lifts and concentrate on keeping may back straight from that position rather than starting with low hips in what my brain 'thinks' is the most advantageous position to pull from?

Am I making any sense or logic here?

ADDITIONAL Re Starting Strength - I must say doing PBs on every lift every session for 9 months has left me very fatigued. I don't know how some of you guys do it for so long.


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## The Sweeney (May 8, 2014)

TommyBananas said:


> @The Sweeney
> 
> This one :E


I've just watched this again and I think it's a pretty good example of what I'm doing wrong and how I might correct it - with lower weight of course.


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## GCMAX (Dec 31, 2013)

Well done on the new PB, I can tell your grip is strong, form looked okay but your rounding your back when picking up, try to keep it flat to avoid injury.


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## The Sweeney (May 8, 2014)

GCMAX said:


> Well done on the new PB, I can tell your grip is strong, form looked okay but your rounding your back when picking up, try to keep it flat to avoid injury.


Thanks pal.

Thanks to all the good advice and wonderful people on this forum, I've got a plan to get things better.

I'm going to make sure my hips are at their optimum height BEFORE I pull to make sure they're in the most efficient position, as per Candito. I'll also make sure my scapula is over the bar which will mean my shoulders are slightly in front for the most efficient lat involvement. I'll also try and make sure I keep my back as flat as possible and not try and squat the weight up as much.

I'll work at it and post a progress video up at a lighter weight once I've got it better.

I'll admit though, my ego wants me to nail my long term target of 4 plates 180kg..... <whistles>


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## CodyMac (Jan 13, 2014)

I found recently that my foot position has a massive affect on my body position throughout the deadlift.

I now set up with my feet fairly/very close together at the heels, with my toes pointed out at a slight angle. This should open your hips up significantly and make the starting position easier to hit and make it easier to stay compact and powerful through the lift.

This tweak has recently have seen my deadlift shoot up from 235kg to 250kg @ 82kg bodyweight.


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