# Carbohydrates and blood sugars. Dieting and carbohydrates and misunderstandings.



## hackskii

First off this article is for people that want to lose weight and have a problem with carbohydrates and spiking blood sugars. This article is not complete but I will finish later as it is a long read.

What about grains? Well, 8000 years ago, there were no grains, bread or pasta.

Agriculture is a very recent (by evolutionary standards) invention.

We regularly eat large quantities of dense, highly processed carbohydrates such as grains and grain based products like pasta. Because we haven't evolved to a stage where we can eat excessive amounts of these high density carbohydrates without adverse biochemical consequences, our bodies aren't able to operate properly. We gain excess weight, suffer from diabetes, heard disease and a host of other ills, feel sluggish, and generally perform at a sub-par level.

Much of the information we received over the years about losing weight is simply wrong.

Over the past 20 years, this misinformation has been responsible for making us fat-phobic. We consume only foods low in fat in a attempt to remain or get thin.

What has been the payoff for our fat obsession? Has our dedication to low fat lifestyle turned us into a nation of lean healthy people?

NO! In fact the exact opposite has resulted. Over the past 20 years the US population (as well as most countries that eat a western diet) has experienced a consistent increase in excess body fat. Obesity over the last ten years has reached widespread levels in the U.S. despite the public actually consuming less fat than before.

In November of 1998, the U.S. Surgeon General declared an epidemic on obesity in America.

THE FOOD PYRAMID&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;..I don't think you guys in the UK have this but I am sure there are similar things judging by your diets.

The food pyramid was not designed by the medical establishment. It was designed by the US Agricultural Department. Now the Agricultural Department job is to sell agricultural products.

The current "Healthy" diet consists of about sixty-five percent carbohydrates, fifteen percent fat, and twenty percent protein. These numbers are shown in this pyramid. As you see, we have been told to eat almost eleven servings a day of breads, cereal, rice, and pasta. They are at the basis of the pyramid. These products are refined carbohydrates. They are manmade carbohydrates.

Was this diet ever tested in the human population prior to being recommended by the US government? Surprisingly, the answer is no. This diet came out in the late sixties in response to the rising epidemic of heart disease. For some reason people still think this is healthy eating habits.

The American Heart Association decided that since fat is a key component for one of the risk factors for heart disease, then Americans should start eating less saturated fat. The problem is that there are more types of fat than just saturated fat. The government assumed we were not smart enough to just cut out saturated fats, so it urged us to cut out all fat. Fat was labeled as the enemy.

Fat is a source of calories. When you cut out fat, you have to replace those calories with something else. The replacement was carbohydrates, because carbohydrates often don't have any fat. The vacuum formed by reducing all the fat in our diets was taken up by carbohydrates.

When this diet was created in the late sixties, twenty-five percent of the adult population was obese. We have now hit the fifty percent mark.

Dietary Fat Does Not Make You Fat!

The solution to this apparent riddle might surprise you, but the explanation is simple. Eating fat in the proper amounts does not make you fat. I will take this one step farther. Eating fat does not make you fat. This sounds like nutritional heresy, but there's scientific proof. In the 1950's, Kekwick and Pawan at the University of London in England published a landmark study. They put patients on a diet that was low in calories (1000) but high in fat. In fact, fat supplied 90 percent of the total calories. What happened? Those patients lost significant amounts of weight. When the same patients were put on a high-carbohydrate diet (90% of the calories form carbs) with the same number of calories, there was virtually no weight loss.

There is one industry that has devoted a lot of money to the understanding what fattens animals up. The cattle and hog industry. They know the fastest way to fatten animals up to get the most profit. How do they do this? By not allowing the cattle to roam and graze and feed them lots and lots of low fat, complex carbohydrates, in the form of grain.

What is the fastest way to fatten us up just like cows? Eat lots of low-fat processed carbohydrates.

I am not against carbohydrates just the processed man made ones. Fresh fruits and vegetables are better than breads and pasta's any day.

Eating carbohydrates stimulates insulin secretion. Since your body has a limited capacity to store carbohydrates, doesn't know when its next meal might be, and has an unlimited ability to store food as fat, insulin does just that. Insulin turns the excess carbohydrates into fat! Dietary fat, on the other hand, does not stimulate insulin secretion. By eating the proper ratio of low-density carbohydrates, dietary fat, and protein, you can control your insulin production.

INSULIN-STIMULATING CARBOHYDRATE CONTENT

Since a carbohydrate restricting Diet is about insulin control, you have to realize that not all carbohydrates affect insulin equally. Every complex carbohydrate must be broken down into simple sugars and will eventually enter the bloodstream as glucose, which in turn will have a stimulatory effect on insulin secretion. Fiber (both soluble and insoluble) cannot be broken down into simple sugars, and therefore it will have no impact on insulin. Taking this into account

If a carbohydrate source (such as pasta) has very little fiber content, then virtually all of its listed carbohydrate content will be insulin-stimulating carbohydrate. On the other hand, if a carbohydrate source is rich in fiber (such as broccoli), then its insulin-stimulating carbohydrate content will be significantly reduced. This means that more volume of fiber-rich carbohydrate source must be consumed to have the same impact on insulin secretion as a much smaller volume of low-fiber content carbohydrate.

You can quickly see that you would have to eat a tremendous volume of broccoli (approximately 12 cups) to have the same impact on insulin as eating a relatively small amount of cooked pasta. This is why starches and grains are considered high-density carbohydrates, whereas fruits are medium-density carbohydrates, and vegetables are low-density carbohydrates. The Atkins and Zone Diets relies heavily on low-density carbohydrates, so large volumes of food must be consumed in order to have an appreciable impact on insulin. This is also why high-density carbohydrates are used in moderation on the Zone Diet because very small volumes can stimulate excess insulin production

The glycemic index is a measure of the entry rates of various carbohydrate sources into the bloodstream. The faster their rate of entry, the greater the effect on insulin secretion. There are three factors that affect the glycemic index of a particular carbohydrate. The first is the amount of fiber (and especially soluble fiber) a carbohydrate contains; the second is the amount of fat found in the carbohydrate source (the more fat consumed with the carbohydrate, the slower the rate of entry into the bloodstream); the third is the composition of the complex carbohydrate itself. The greater the amount of glucose it contains, the higher the glycemic index; whereas the more fructose a carbohydrate contains, the lower the glycemic index. This is because fructose cannot enter into the bloodstream without first being converted into glucose, a relatively slow process that takes place in the liver.

With time the glycemic index soon became the new fashionable guideline to determine which carbohydrates to eat. However, the glycemic index had significant experimental problems in dealing with low-density carbohydrates, such as vegetables.

The difficulties arose because determination of the glycemic index requires that a sufficient intake of carbohydrate (usually 50 grams) be consumed. But it is simply too difficult to consume this amount of carbohydrate from most vegetables at a sitting. For instance this would require consuming about 16 cups of steamed broccoli. As a result, nearly all the glycemic index work has been done with grains, starches, and some fruits, and virtually nothing is known about the glycemic index of low-density vegetables that are the backbone of the Zone and Atkins Diets.

Ultimately, a healthy diet is obtained through insulin moderation, which can best be achieved by primarily consuming low-density carbohydrates that also have a low-glycemic index. That means eating a lot of vegetables.

Even though the glycemic index of each of these carbohydrates (1 cup pasta and 1 cup broccoli) are about the same, 1 cup of pasta generates 20 times the insulin response as 1 cup of broccoli. And a single apple generates about 6 times the insulin response as the 1 cup of broccoli.

And you can also understand why many of the carbohydrates found in traditional grain-based vegetarian diets are likely to dramatically increase insulin levels. For example, white rice generates a tremendous amount of insulin response compared to the same volume of oatmeal or barley because rice has a greater glycemic load. Likewise, most breakfast cereals will have the same impact on insulin as a Snickers bar, since their glycemic loads are approximately the same. Meanwhile cooked vegetables represent a very low glycemic load, which is why they are a critical component of the Zone and Atkins Diets.

But remember that the more processed a food, the higher the glycemic load. This is why boiled beans have a much lower glycemic load than the same volume of canned beans. And when you make any bean (like black beans) into a soup, the glycemic load skyrockets because the prolonged cooking breaks down the cell walls of the bean making it easier for the body to digest it into simple sugars for absorption.

Carbs before bed?

If you eat a carbohydrate rich snack before bed, you've done everything in your power to inhibit growth hormone release. Why? Because you raised insulin levels, and insulin retards the secretion of growth hormone from the pituitary gland.

At this point this article is incomplete and am going to post anyway but I will add to it later when I get a chance. I wanted to go into carbohydrate addictions but will have to add that later.


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## Panthro

great stuff hackskii! More of those please! Lets make it a sticky...


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## Panthro

hackskii said:


> Over the past 20 years, this misinformation has been responsible for making us fat-phobic. We consume only foods low in fat in a attempt to remain or get thin............
> 
> Dietary Fat Does Not Make You Fat!


Man,i say that till i go blue in the face.

As for the second bit of the quote, i think ill get it tattooed to my forehead!


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## hackskii

Hey guys this is a copy and past but good information to back up over consumption of carbohydrates.

Insulin Resistance:

Other than the genes you inherited, there are two primary causes of insulin resistance:

1) a long-term diet that has been high in carbohydrates and

2) nutritional deficiencies.

Your body breaks down carbohydrates into sugar (glucose) which then enters your blood stream. The more carbohydrates consumed, the higher your blood sugar goes, the more insulin your body produces to keep those blood sugar levels in a normal range. Insulin's job is to push the sugar out of your bloodstream and into the cells.

On the surface of the cells in your body are insulin receptors, which act like little doors that open and close to regulate the inflow of blood sugar.

After many years of consuming a high-carbohydrate diet, your cells have been bombarded with so much insulin that these doors begin to malfunction and shut down.

With less doors open, your body needs to produce even more insulin to push the glucose into the cells. More insulin causes even more doors to close and as this vicious cycle continues, a condition called "insulin resistance" sets in.

The insulin resistance can get so bad that your body can no longer produce enough insulin to push the blood sugar into the cells. The blood sugar then rises out of control with the result of type 2 diabetes. Diabetes is simply an extreme case of insulin resistance.

The key point for you to understand is that your energy, wellness and longevity are primarily dependent on improving the sensitivity of your cells to insulin - how well your cells open and close the doors and clear sugar from the blood.

What's the Bottom line?

Since type 2 diabetes is really a severe case of insulin resistance, the solution to your condition and to help prevent diabetes is to find a way to increase the sensitivity of your cells to insulin and help your body get the sugar out of the blood and into the cells so it can be metabolized and turned into energy. (This inability to metabolize sugar is one of the reasons why most people who are insulin resistant often feel tired and fatigued.)

The Deadly Effects of Excess Insulin!

Your "metabolism" is the food processing and energy production system of your body. It is made up of extremely fine-tuned internal processes.

Insulin is the master hormone of your metabolism. When it is out of balance and your insulin levels are consistently elevated, a long list of deadly complications are created:

* Heart Disease

* Hardening of the Arteries

* Damage to Artery Walls

* Increased Cholesterol Levels

* Vitamin & Mineral Deficiencies

* Kidney Disease

* Fat Burning Mechanism Turned Off

* Accumulation & Storage of Fat

* Weight Gain


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## Nathan

Thanks for that mate, it was good reading that was somthing that i was trying to get info about.

cheers


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## Tatyana

Insulin deals with more than glucose, it is a hormone of nutrient storage,which includes ALL the nutrients including fat and amino acids.

Insulin is an ANABOLIC hormone that stimulates the biosynthetic pathways, with the key tissues being adipose (fat), the liver and MUSCLE.

It promotes glucose uptake into muscle to replenish the largest store of glycogen in the body (and muscle glycogen stays in the muscle, this includes heart muscle, and increases the uptake of amino acids into muscle, which are used to make protein, which is the basic building block of muscle.

Insulin is released in a pulsatile fashion, every 11-15 minutes with a half life of 2-6 minutes NO MATTER WHAT YOU EAT.

Fasting levels of insulin are about 20-100 pmol/l

Postprandial (feeding) ae 350-580 pmol/l

Insulin release is not only triggered by hyperglycaemia (high levels of glucose in the blood), but by certain amino acids and the gut hormones VIP, GIP and CCK.

Insulin also triggers other anabolic hormones to be released.

Insulin promotes CELL GROWTH.


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## Tatyana

Insulin resistance is usually a disorder of the elderly or obese. It basically means there is too much body for the amount of insulin produced. A drop in weight of 10-15% usually corrects this.

As for the cell surface receptor 'damage', I had thought that it was hydrogenated fats that 'block up' the glucose receptors.

There are 5 categories of glucose receptors, some are tissue specific, called GLUT 1 through 5.

GLUT 4 is stored in the cytoplasm of the cell and is transported to the cell surface under the influence of insulin and increases the uptake of glucose by 6-10 x.

GLUT 1 and 3 are always present on the cell surface, (GLUT 1 is on RBCs or red blood cells).

I do have loads more info on GLUT receptors, I love my cell and molecular biology.


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## dirtride

good post hacks


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## Tatyana

hackskii said:


> What about grains? Well, 8000 years ago, there were no grains, bread or pasta.
> 
> Agriculture is a very recent (by evolutionary standards) invention.
> 
> We regularly eat large quantities of dense, highly processed carbohydrates such as grains and grain based products like pasta.




Structure and evolution of cereal genomes
​


Andrew H Paterson, John E Bowers, Daniel G Petersony,

James C Estill and Brad A Chapman
​


The cereal species, of central importance to our diet, began to

diverge 50-70 million years ago. For the past few thousand

years, these species have undergone largely parallel

selection regimes associated with domestication and

improvement. The rice genome sequence provides a

platform for organizing information about diverse cereals,and together with genetic maps and sequence samples from other cereals is yielding new insights into both the sharedand the independent dimensions of cereal evolution. New dataand population-based approaches are identifying genes that

have been involved in cereal improvement. Reducedrepresentation sequencing promises to accelerate gene discovery in many large-genome cereals, and to better link the under-explored genomes of 'orphan' cereals with

state-of-the-art knowledge.
​

​
Current Opinion in Genetics & Development 2003, 13:644-650



BAC bacterial artificial chromosome
​


CBCS Cot-based cloning and sequencing
​


EST expressed sequence tag
​


SNP single-nucleotide polymorphism
​


STS sequence-tagged site
​


Introduction
​


The cereal crops, which provide about half of the caloriesin our diet, represent a relatively recent branch of the plant family tree. Although the angiosperm (floweringplant) lineage is thought to be 200 million years old,cereals such as maize (Zea), rice (Oryza), sorghum (Sorghum),and wheat (Triticum) diverged from a common

ancestor only 50-70 million years ago [1]. Approximately

10,000 years ago, humans began to select cereals

for traits including non-shattering, determinate growth,

increased seed number, size, and carbohydrate content,

and reduced dormancy [2]. Although these 'domestication'

efforts were ostensibly independent and occurred on

different continents - maize in America, sorghum in

Africa, wheat in the Near East, and rice in both Africa and

Asia-the possibility that mutations in some correspondinggenes may have been selected (e.g. see [3,4]) is ageneral reflection of the many structural and functional parallels that appear to have persisted since the divergence of these lineages.

Just part of the article as it would bore the tears out of anyone who didn't love evolutionary biology. Humans were eating cereal grains before 8000 years ago. They would have started to cultivate them as they figured out HOW to, and as they were eating them already.

There was something bugging me about that 8000 years thing, as I knew from studying evolutionary botany that the angiosperms evolved far before that, in fact one theory of the demise of the dinosaurs is the rise of the angiosperms. Well a contributing factor!

x

x

x

T
​


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## Tatyana

*TABLE 1* Food and food types found in Western diets generally unavailable to preagricultural hominins1



Food or food groupValue

 Dairy products% of energy2 Whole milk1.6 Low-fat milk2.1 Cheese3.2 Butter1.1 Other2.6 Total10.6Cereal grains Whole grains3.5 Refined grains20.4 Total23.9Refined sugars Sucrose8.0 High-fructose corn syrup7.8 Glucose2.6 Syrups0.1 Other0.1 Total18.6Refined vegetable oils Salad, cooking oils8.8 Shortening6.6 Margarine2.2 Total17.6Alcohol1.4Total energy72.1Added salt, as sodium chloride9.63


1 Data adapted from references 22-24.

2 In the US diet.

3 Salt from processed foods, table salt use, and cooking; in g/d.


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## Tatyana

American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, Vol. 81, No. 2, 341-354, February 2005

© 2005 American Society for Clinical Nutrition

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

COMMENTARY

Origins and evolution of the Western diet: health implications for the 21st century1,2

Loren Cordain, S Boyd Eaton, Anthony Sebastian, Neil Mann, Staffan Lindeberg, Bruce A Watkins, James H O'Keefe and Janette Brand-Miller

1 From the Department of Health and Exercise Science, Colorado State University, Fort Collins (LC); the Departments of Radiology and Anthropology, Emory University, Atlanta (SBE); the Department of Medicine and UCSF/Moffitt General Clinical Research Center, University of California, San Francisco (AS); the Department of Food Science, RMIT University, Melbourne, Australia (NM); the Department of Medicine, Lund University, Sweden (SL); the Department of Food Science, Lipid Chemistry and Molecular Biology Laboratory, Purdue University, West Lafayette, IN (BAW); the Mid America Heart Institute, Cardiovascular Consultants, Kansas City, MO (JHO); and the Human Nutrition Unit, Department of Biochemistry, University of Sydney, Australia (JB-M)

2 Address reprint requests to L Cordain, Department of Health and Exercise Science, Colorado State University, Fort Collins, CO 80523. E-mail: [email protected]

*Cereals*

Because wild cereal grains are usually small, difficult to harvest, and minimally digestible without processing (grinding) and cooking, the appearance of stone processing tools in the fossil record represents a reliable indication of when and where cultures systematically began to include cereal grains in their diet (7). Ground stone mortars, bowls, and cup holes first appeared in the Upper Paleolithic (from 40000 y ago to 12000 y ago) (29), whereas the regular exploitation of cereal grains by any worldwide hunter-gatherer group arose with the emergence of the Natufian culture in the Levant







13000 BP (30). Domestication of emmer and einkorn wheat by the descendants of the Natufians heralded the beginnings of early agriculture and occurred by 10-11000 BP from strains of wild wheat localized to southeastern Turkey (31). During the ensuing Holocene (10000 y ago until the present), cereal grains were rarely consumed as year round staples by most worldwide hunter-gatherers (32, 33), except by certain groups living in arid and marginal environments (32, 34).

In Table 1, it is shown that 85.3% of the cereals consumed in the current US diet are highly processed refined grains. Preceding the Industrial Revolution, all cereals were ground with the use of stone milling tools, and unless the flour was sieved, it contained the entire contents of the cereal grain, including the germ, bran, and endosperm (35). With the invention of mechanized steel roller mills and automated sifting devices in the latter part of the 19th century (35), the nutritional characteristics of milled grain changed significantly because the germ and bran were removed in the milling process, leaving flour comprised mainly of endosperm of uniformly small particulate size (35, 36). Accordingly, the widespread consumption of highly refined grain flours of uniformly small particulate size represents a recent secular phenomenon dating to the past 150-200 y (35).


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## Carter

Am loving the advice from both Scott & Tatyana! Trying to take this all in and getting most of it, but turning it into diet?

Starting just over a year ago, trying to get the perfect diet and workouts it seems the more i read the more my brain struggles!

Trying to gain muscle mass I currently eat 50%Carbs, 30%Protein, 15%Fats. Obviously everyone has there own opinion on diet but this is the percentages ive decided on from my research!

A diet of 50% Carbs equats to 1800-2000calories! I just dont see how I can get this many good carb cals?

To get the protien I need I use carbs as a base, such as bread, pasta, rice, pitta & protein shakes to supplement extra protien! (A palm size of carbs, fist size of protein!)!

But these carbs still spike my insulin levels, so how can i get good protein & carbs without these foods!

6 Meals a day is my usual! sometimes 8 sometimes 4! I guesse im asking for someone to tell me the perfect diet, make it easy for me so i have no options! This is the way! But i know its never that simple!

I appreciate any advice/comments, i beleive learning/education is the key to sucess more than anything else!


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## Tatyana

Ok one thing that both Scott and I DO agree on (we are getting better at the tag team thing), refined carbs are not really eating CLEAN.

SO if you are used to eating loads of white bread and pasta, switch to brown first (proper brown, NOT fake colored brown).

I am going to have to go to Tescos and get some names of decent breads, I only have it a week after a comp as cheats now. AND an occasional peshwari naan with a cheat meal.

RICE, brown basmati has the lowest GI.

I am also big on the underutilised whole grains, AND I am going to have to check this out as it was a bit I saw in wikipedia, it says NOT really grains like:

Buckwheat

Quinoa

Spelt

Amaranth

Millet

AND other grains like barley and whole wheat berries are better than having them all smunched.

SO buckwheat noodles maybe? Like SOBA, YUM!

x

x

x

T


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## hackskii

There is nothing wrong with adding fruits and vegetables to your diet.

If you want more calorie dense carbs with a higher GI load carbs in your diet then add fruits like banana's, If you want them lower then select apples, strawberries or all berries for that matter.

Its just a matter of tweaking little things for your taste.

I like 40/30/30 carbs/protein/fats idea better myself.

But at the moment it is closer to 10/50/40 carbs/proteins/fats while I am dieting.

I notice that pasta, bread, rice (especially white) make me tired after eating them.

This tells me that there is a rise in blood sugar and insulin and this makes me crash.

Lowering the carbs in my situation and upping the fats avoids the crash all together.

I find dieting easier on the lower carb scheme of things, I eat them but I dont eat the ones that make me feel like crap afterwards.

Refined carbs should be avoided, so should trans fats and hydrogenated oils, add both of those together in high amounts and you are looking for trouble.

I like my fruits in the morning (they are refreshing, especially my apples cold), and vegetables in the afternoon.

If you select foods like celery, broccoli, etc, you can get pretty damn full with little impact on total calories.

Adding in calorie dense foods is quite easy to overfeed, processed foods will fit in this catagory easy.

Bad thing is most processed foods are very high in the GI, trans fats/hydrogenated oils, it is the nature of the beast and the unlimited shelf life the manufacturers love.

Nutritionally it is poison.

Vary your protein sources, vary your fruits and vegetables, vary your fats, some examples of good fats are olives, nuts, seeds, avacado, or olive oils, fish oils.

But eating salmon can take the place of adding fish oils to your diet.

So making the diet more rounded you cant go wrong.

Just makes good sense to me.

If you are hungry and want a snack, grab some nuts, bingo your appetite is satisfied pretty fast.


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## attitude746

Ok im confused, as the first post said that eating carbs before bed inhibits growth as it releases insulin which stops growth hormone.

And then a post by TAT said insulin helps growth!.

Im well confused now


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## hackskii

Insulin is a storage hormone, so yah It does help in growth of muscles, but it also slows or even stops growth hormone from releasing.

hightest amount of growth hormone is secreted during intense exercise and also during REM sleep.


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## Fabion Drivenne

i read somewhere that insulin is anabolic also cause it also causes cells to uptake more protein aswell as glycogen

also ADH makes for a low volume of concentrated urine:thumb:

or perhaps its the other way round..higher biology, good times had by all


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## Fabion Drivenne

sh*t that had basically been said whoops only read the first coupla posts


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## Tatyana

hackskii said:


> Insulin is a storage hormone, so yah It does help in growth of muscles, but it also slows or even stops growth hormone from releasing.
> 
> hightest amount of growth hormone is secreted during intense exercise and also during REM sleep.


Our hormones exist in a state of flux in the body, they are often secreted in a pulsatile manner.

It is a general rule of thumb that when insulin is high, GH is low and vice versa, but this situation exists naturally in the body, it can be manipulated with diet to maximise both.

The body clears glucose from the bloodstream quite rapidly, and maintains it at a level of around 3-6 mmol/L, and GH would be released when these glucose levels are present.

GH also has a different secretion pattern in women than in men.

If you are really overweight, or you have eaten a diet of really simple carbs like glucose and modified fat, then a low carb healthy fat diet is probably a very good idea for awhile.

One other misconception, *ANYTHING can make you fat if you eat in excess of what your body needs, carbs, fats or protein*, so the statement dietary fat does not make you fat is not 100 % true.

Eat healthy, eat rubbish but keep the calories under control, you will not get fat. The composition of your body may not be what you would like it to be with a rubbish diet though.

People do need to get away from the brainwashing that low fat foods are good as diet foods, as they are not, a low fat yogurt can contain 13 g of pure sugar.

If your body fat percentage is HIGH, then the majority of the nutrients you eat will be preferentially stored as fat by insulin.

If you bodyfat percentage is LOW, then the majority of nutrients you eat will be stored in muscle under the influence of insulin.


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## hackskii

Tatyana said:


> If your body fat percentage is HIGH, then the majority of the nutrients you eat will be preferentially stored as fat by insulin.


Providing this is not post workout where your body is actually insulin sensitive.


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## Xtrainer

What is the glycaemic index of oats then? So many people on this forum swear by them and I am starting dieting as of today after about 12 months of bulking. I am really loath to cut out my oats as I love them in my shakes!!!


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## hackskii

Its in the 40's mate.

The faster it cooks, or the more processed it is, the higher the GI, so instant will probably be in the 60's in comparison to the other longer cooking ones.


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## fits

Lots of interesting reading. but like most things, the majority of people don't need to worry about most of it. Everything in moderation (as my nan always says)

I liked Diatia as a way of eating as I felt very good on it, and nothing was evil on it. Just moderation in reality. like the zone diet. Just keep it simple.

On another note, I read recently that wholemeal bread, rice, past ect was not much different with regards to GI than white


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## hackskii

fits said:


> On another note, I read recently that wholemeal bread, rice, past ect was not much different with regards to GI than white


This is true, but rice cakes are higher than sugar for GI.......lol

See how a little processing jackes up the GI?

Diata is a solid diet, just like The Zone, all have a place for things.

Add some peanut butter to that bread, and bang, you almost halfed the glycemic load of that bread, take it with some cellery, and bang, it now drops lower for the glycemic load.

See how you can manipulate the food?

Apple is low, cook it and bang, it gets higher.


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## Xtrainer

To be honest I've just stopped the carbs completely after much reading on the board. I only take about 25g of oats post workout. Nothing else at all. I'm 36 hours in and to be honest I am really struggling energy wise. I've tried to keep the fats high to compensate for the lack of carbs but boy, I can't wait for Ketosis to kick in!!!

Any ideas how much it will affect ketosis if I keep post workout carbs present in the diet? Does it send it backwards or will it just slow it down?

I've read a load of stuff on this site after having my body fat measured (24%) and being really unhappy with it. I weigh about 96 kg, and will be looking to cut around 9-10 kg at least. It will be a real shock to the system following the 12 months of hard bulking. It's true what you all say on here though, I just ate and ate. Mostly, it was good food, but i threw in some crap aswell. My lifts went up almost every week - and this was after another 12 months hard training (but without the increase in diet). I feel great now, very strong and nice and full, but have decided I want to be around 13% ish.

The whey shakes feel like welcome relief from the goddamn veg and lean meat. I'm introducing nuts and lots of oily fish.

How fast does this Keto stuff work..?


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## Cap'n Beefy

hackskii said:


> Its in the 40's mate.
> 
> The faster it cooks, or the more processed it is, the higher the GI, so instant will probably be in the 60's in comparison to the other longer cooking ones.


How about eaing them raw (yes I know they come part cooked)? Do they not cook in the stomach, thus lowering the GI rating?

What do you guys (and gals) think about making the odd sauce with a little bit of milk when dieting? God knows, plain chicken gets difficult to swallow after a while!! :drool:


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## hackskii

More processing, lowers the GI of that food...............Period.............

Apple juice for example had a much higher GI rating than apples...This is due to the removal of the fiber from the apple.


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## Andypandy999

this post is seriously interesting,, some great ideas and some great help on what to eat and what not too eat......

my diet today has been......

Oats(half a bowl), Vits, mins, fish oils, protein shake

meal 2 - 2 x home made burgers(250g of lean minced beef) with 100g of rice

snack - i can of tuna

my evening meal is gonna be chicken breast(200g), Sweetcorn 100g, Peas 100g,

By the looks fo this maybe i am eating too much veg,

andy


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## marticus

According to alot of these theories, i am doing it all wrong. Strange thing is i have regained all my muscle from 30 years ago, eating 300gms of carbs a day. Can compete at a good level and regularly. 12 times a year. Yes i am gluten free, and take in moderate fats, medium protein. My photos at almost 62yrs, tell a different story. myb.


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## marticus

Carter said:


> Am loving the advice from both Scott & Tatyana! Trying to take this all in and getting most of it, but turning it into diet?
> 
> Starting just over a year ago, trying to get the perfect diet and workouts it seems the more i read the more my brain struggles!
> 
> Trying to gain muscle mass I currently eat 50%Carbs, 30%Protein, 15%Fats. Obviously everyone has there own opinion on diet but this is the percentages ive decided on from my research!
> 
> A diet of 50% Carbs equats to 1800-2000calories! I just dont see how I can get this many good carb cals?
> 
> To get the protien I need I use carbs as a base, such as bread, pasta, rice, pitta & protein shakes to supplement extra protien! (A palm size of carbs, fist size of protein!)!
> 
> But these carbs still spike my insulin levels, so how can i get good protein & carbs without these foods!
> 
> 6 Meals a day is my usual! sometimes 8 sometimes 4! I guesse im asking for someone to tell me the perfect diet, make it easy for me so i have no options! This is the way! But i know its never that simple!
> 
> I appreciate any advice/comments, i beleive learning/education is the key to sucess more than anything else!


Hi i think you are on the right trak with your percentages, but go gluten free, Have alook on my journal, members pics. myb. :thumbup1:


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## marticus

Xtrainer said:


> To be honest I've just stopped the carbs completely after much reading on the board. I only take about 25g of oats post workout. Nothing else at all. I'm 36 hours in and to be honest I am really struggling energy wise. I've tried to keep the fats high to compensate for the lack of carbs but boy, I can't wait for Ketosis to kick in!!!
> 
> Any ideas how much it will affect ketosis if I keep post workout carbs present in the diet? Does it send it backwards or will it just slow it down?
> 
> I've read a load of stuff on this site after having my body fat measured (24%) and being really unhappy with it. I weigh about 96 kg, and will be looking to cut around 9-10 kg at least. It will be a real shock to the system following the 12 months of hard bulking. It's true what you all say on here though, I just ate and ate. Mostly, it was good food, but i threw in some crap aswell. My lifts went up almost every week - and this was after another 12 months hard training (but without the increase in diet). I feel great now, very strong and nice and full, but have decided I want to be around 13% ish.
> 
> The whey shakes feel like welcome relief from the goddamn veg and lean meat. I'm introducing nuts and lots of oily fish.
> 
> How fast does this Keto stuff work..?


Im sure you will, get the results you want from keto, But is this a diet you can stick with, long term? Or indeed not cheat regularly. I would like you to look on my jour.nal,members pics.Food for thought! myb.


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## BigOak

really helpful thanks very much ! :thumb:


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## Dipster

Interesting reading, nice one Hacksii


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## IrishRaver

Panthro said:


> Man,i say that till i go blue in the face.
> 
> As for the second bit of the quote, i think ill get it tattooed to my forehead!


Hahaha! You do that, and I'll name my first born after you!


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## EmporioMani

What a brilliant post i swear !!

God !! the more i get into the physical fitness journals the more i want to read !! 

I LOVE SCOTT !! and thanks TYT !!

i gonna read the whole thread again so my brain gets it all clear !!


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## hackskii

EmporioMani said:


> What a brilliant post i swear !!
> 
> God !! the more i get into the physical fitness journals the more i want to read !!
> 
> I LOVE SCOTT !! and thanks TYT !!
> 
> i gonna read the whole thread again so my brain gets it all clear !!


This thread is almost 6 years old............lol

Tatyana is pretty sharp, I miss her posting.


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## natch97

This kind of info should be given to more dieters. My wife is on a atkins style diet but it tells you to cut down carbs and fat which just leads to cheating because the only

satisfaction comes from protein which is hard to sustain long term.


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## hackskii

natch97 said:


> This kind of info should be given to more dieters. My wife is on a atkins style diet but it tells you to cut down carbs and fat which just leads to cheating because the only
> 
> satisfaction comes from protein which is hard to sustain long term.


It does not tell you to cut fats, it tells you to cut carbs, cutting fats can cause you to fall out of ketosis, and your primary fuel source is protein, which is the worst fuel source you can take in.

If that werent bad enough, skip a meal when you eat only protein your body can go catabolic fast as the body has tons of protein stored.........


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## deep85

very interesting read.. but its late and my head is pickled as to what carbs i should be eating?? are oats bad? rice? pasta.... no carbs b4 bed? il need to re- read this in the morning lol


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## totalwar

nice read guys


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## cikko

Old thread - BUT worth every second of reading....

As a low carb person with issues of needing to be gluten free (actually the reason I came across low carb diets in the first place!), I thought I'd got a good handle on most intricacies of eating what and when causes xyz.... but now I'm having to question my first principles (or at least my recollection of first principles) when i first looked at the diet as a life style.

Just a quick word of warning to anyone thinking of low carb....

I went on low carb to see if wheat was causing me so much upset. It appeared to be wheat (could be gluten) but felt AMAZING so carried it on. heres the warning:

I now CANNOT go back to wheat without SERIOUS upset. Where previously I must have had a slight intollerance - I now have zero tolerence.

Stu


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## TommyFire

cikko said:


> Old thread - BUT worth every second of reading....
> 
> As a low carb person with issues of needing to be gluten free (actually the reason I came across low carb diets in the first place!), I thought I'd got a good handle on most intricacies of eating what and when causes xyz.... but now I'm having to question my first principles (or at least my recollection of first principles) when i first looked at the diet as a life style.
> 
> Just a quick word of warning to anyone thinking of low carb....
> 
> I went on low carb to see if wheat was causing me so much upset. It appeared to be wheat (could be gluten) but felt AMAZING so carried it on. heres the warning:
> 
> I now CANNOT go back to wheat without SERIOUS upset. Where previously I must have had a slight intollerance - I now have zero tolerence.
> 
> Stu


Mate, if you go for a prolonged period of ketosis any carb will give you upset when you introduce it again. Last time i did Keto i spent around 2 weeks on the toilet when i came off it! Needless to say I will never be doing prolonged keto again. CKD is the best option IMO. Carbs are not bad, eating too much of them is.


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## hackskii

cikko said:


> Old thread - BUT worth every second of reading....
> 
> As a low carb person with issues of needing to be gluten free (actually the reason I came across low carb diets in the first place!), I thought I'd got a good handle on most intricacies of eating what and when causes xyz.... but now I'm having to question my first principles (or at least my recollection of first principles) when i first looked at the diet as a life style.
> 
> Just a quick word of warning to anyone thinking of low carb....
> 
> I went on low carb to see if wheat was causing me so much upset. It appeared to be wheat (could be gluten) but felt AMAZING so carried it on. heres the warning:
> 
> I now CANNOT go back to wheat without SERIOUS upset. Where previously I must have had a slight intollerance - I now have zero tolerence.
> 
> Stu


It could be the case.

But as said above when you come off a keto diet you have to introduce carbohydrates slowly.

Start off with like an apple, then you can add like half a potato, or something else.

I myself think that with all the processing that goes with wheat, you can find better carb sources anyway.


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## Finchy

I notice in a lot of the Keto diet threads people talk about getting sugar cravings when restricting carbs. Is this an individual thing? Because whenever I followed a low-carb plan I have noticed that my energy levels stabilize and my cravings for carbohydrate foods - wel.....they are non existent just like it says in books like Atkins and Protein power.


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## Finchy

Another question - do you guys subscribe to the idea that you can subtract grams of fibre from the carbohydrate to get the "effective" carb count (reference; Eades Protein Power) ?

This is not something that is mentioned in Atkins or that I have seen in Bodyopus, but it is mentioned in the Eades writings and it makes sense since we can't digest fibre (fibre actually being a carbodydrate and included in the total carbohydrate value on food labels).


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## hackskii

Finchy said:


> Another question - do you guys subscribe to the idea that you can subtract grams of fibre from the carbohydrate to get the "effective" carb count (reference; Eades Protein Power) ?
> 
> This is not something that is mentioned in Atkins or that I have seen in Bodyopus, but it is mentioned in the Eades writings and it makes sense since we can't digest fibre (fibre actually being a carbodydrate and included in the total carbohydrate value on food labels).


I know what you are talking about, those would be net carbs.

I do believe you can subtract as it takes 250 calories to burn 35 grams of fiber, or about 7.14 cals per gram.

So, in theory you cant count fiber as it takes more cals to burn than the energy it gives you, not to mention slowing down digestion causing a smaller spike in insulin.


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## Finchy

Just to further this discussion then - this is kind of a BodyOpus or CKD diet approach(?) Are there any rules of thumb for calorie consumption on a CKD diet? i.e. do you need to be in calorie defecit for losing fat and a calorie surplus if you are trying to gain muscle?


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## TheBlondMyth

Hey Guys I'd like to add a very good article i came across on cutting. it is devised by Layne Norton natural pro bodybuilding with a PhD in nutritional sciences! here is the link:

http://onestopmuscle.co.uk/index.php/2011/06/1485/


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## hazard_mkd

@hackskii

I know it's an old thread, but still a great read. I have one question for you.

I'm on a cut right now, and im trying to limit my glycemic load.

Up until now i was eating instant oats mixed with low fat plain yogurt for breakfast. Which after some research turned out to be not so good.

is

100gr oats, 1 scoop whey, 1 tbsp ground flax seeds and water

a better alternative?

i'd be getting good complex carbs from the oats, some protein and will be adding some good fats from the ground flax seeds (they are high in fiber too.. 27%)

thanks


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## hackskii

Thats fine, lots of fiber there.

I was using oats, whey, then butter on it for the ratio I was looking for.


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## cjbo

What do you reckon of the following post cardio and first meal of the day? Goal is obviously fat loss and cardio is empty stomach. I dont like any complex carbs and rely solely on fibrous ones throughout the day.

What do u reckon of this as a smoothie?????

no fat natural youghurt x 100g

whey x 25g

blueberries x 100g

Flax x 20g

Multivit+glucosamine

P30 F9 C13 46% 21% 33% CALS 256


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## hackskii

cjbo said:


> What do you reckon of the following post cardio and first meal of the day? Goal is obviously fat loss and cardio is empty stomach. I dont like any complex carbs and rely solely on fibrous ones throughout the day.
> 
> What do u reckon of this as a smoothie?????
> 
> no fat natural youghurt x 100g
> 
> whey x 25g
> 
> blueberries x 100g
> 
> Flax x 20g
> 
> Multivit+glucosamine
> 
> P30 F9 C13 46% 21% 33% CALS 256


That looks good to me.

You would be surprised what you can do with yogurt, it actually is kind of sour like sour cream, you can make salad dressing from it, put it on potato, make smoothies from it, etc.


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## cjbo

Cool thanks for the reply. Ye I use it for lots of stuff like you mentioned. Id really apreciate your feedback on my normal week ...1st meal post cardio smoothie as above. 2nd meal whey shake. 3rd meal tuna x 130g with balsamic vinegar and greens. 4th meal whey shake with 25g nuts. 5th meal turkey x 150g or fish like hake, coley etc with greens like broccoli, green beans etc, 5litres of water. Cardio low-med intenstity for 30mins x 7, 1.5hr of basketball training x 2 and high intensity cardio sessions for 30mins x 1 per week. Weight training is 5 times per week usually but now Ive upped it to 6 times per week and maybe 7. I cheat once a week at the weekend but now im trying to go 8 weeks with no cheating. Alcohol is once or twice a week and is low calorie like vodka with diet mixer. Sups are glucosamine, fish oil (depending on weekly fish intake), multi vit and im starting a cycle of clen and t3. I find eating this way helps me feel better (leaner, balanced sugar levels etc) but now i wanna up it a bit to burn some christmas overindulgence........What do u think???


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## hackskii

cjbo said:


> Cool thanks for the reply. Ye I use it for lots of stuff like you mentioned. Id really apreciate your feedback on my normal week ...1st meal post cardio smoothie as above. 2nd meal whey shake. 3rd meal tuna x 130g with balsamic vinegar and greens. 4th meal whey shake with 25g nuts. 5th meal turkey x 150g or fish like hake, coley etc with greens like broccoli, green beans etc, 5litres of water. Cardio low-med intenstity for 30mins x 7, 1.5hr of basketball training x 2 and high intensity cardio sessions for 30mins x 1 per week. Weight training is 5 times per week usually but now Ive upped it to 6 times per week and maybe 7. I cheat once a week at the weekend but now im trying to go 8 weeks with no cheating. Alcohol is once or twice a week and is low calorie like vodka with diet mixer. Sups are glucosamine, fish oil (depending on weekly fish intake), multi vit and im starting a cycle of clen and t3. I find eating this way helps me feel better (leaner, balanced sugar levels etc) but now i wanna up it a bit to burn some christmas overindulgence........What do u think???


I would like to see more whole foods and less shakes.

I also think it is not a good idea to use T3 as a dieting agent, too much muscle will be sacrificed with that, and any muscle loss should be kept to a minimum.

Reason being 1 pound of muscle needs about 35 to 50 calories a day to support that, losing muscle lowers your requirement for food, making dieting counterproductive.

If you wanted to take gear with that then fine.


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## cjbo

You dont think clen would be enough to prevent catabolism??? I wont do down the AAS route so I was gonna go with just clen. Im female by the way


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## hackskii

cjbo said:


> You dont think clen would be enough to prevent catabolism??? I wont do down the AAS route so I was gonna go with just clen. Im female by the way


Well, clen would be a tool to use for your cardio as it is a bronchio dilator which will help you breathe better when doing cardio so you could hammer it a bit harder in the gym.

Other than that, I do not believe in its anabolism in humans, in cows yes, not humans.


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## tns

@hackskii

how much carbs according to GI and Gl would you need to eat to keep insulin spike in control. that is the practical appliance of your thread and i need to find out in order to actually have some results.

i mean how much white rise wont raise blood sugar too much??

another question. doesnt protein and fats raise insulin too? and when you eat protein with carbs doesnt that make the absorption of carbs slower leading to a smaller increase in insulin?

how would you raise fat intake when lowering carbs?


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## hackskii

tns said:


> @hackskii
> 
> how much carbs according to GI and Gl would you need to eat to keep insulin spike in control. that is the practical appliance of your thread and i need to find out in order to actually have some results.
> 
> i mean how much white rise wont raise blood sugar too much??
> 
> another question. doesnt protein and fats raise insulin too? and when you eat protein with carbs doesnt that make the absorption of carbs slower leading to a smaller increase in insulin?
> 
> how would you raise fat intake when lowering carbs?


Well, fiber really curbs the spikes due to slowing digestion.

So, lets say you ate some eggs, and celery you probably would not have very big of a spike at all.

Peanuts for example are very low on the GI, even adding in something like apple pectin would work well to slow digestion.

Adding in a fat is pretty easy, you would just add in some olive oil for example.

Remember portion control is important too.


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## CharlieE

So after reading the main post you say that I shouldn't be eating carbs with my post workout meal as I have been over the last 6 months while I try to get leaner cos it will mess it all up ? I don't eat carbs during the day, only with my post workout meal and only 60g of rice, my diet is currently based on fats & protein.... Sorry I haven't read the whole thread... Will have a look later, thanks


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## Loveleelady

hackskii said:


> Its in the 40's mate.
> 
> The faster it cooks, or the more processed it is, the higher the GI, so instant will probably be in the 60's in comparison to the other longer cooking ones.


I use the traditional ones that come in bag and you make up - I use water and a dash of 1% milk - what's the gi like on that? Would I be better to change to eggs instead of porridge?


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## Dan94

Trying to plan a low carb diet and saw this somewhere, is this true? Take the fibre amount away from the carb amount to get the "proper" net carbs?

"For example: Rye crispbread Serving size: 1 slice Total carbohydrate: 6.6g Dietary fibre: 1.8g

6.6 (total carbs) minus 1.8 (fibre) = 4.8 (net carbs)"


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## simonf888

This is great stuff. Finish the article please.


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## biglbs

Just updating my brain,came across this,i know we have much confusion on here about carbs and fats,this thread answers pretty much all of the questions,enjoy this BUMP...it works for me,this is how i try to eat,doing real good on it too,when i can be strict enough on myself lol


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