# BigLou's Journal - EXTREME LABS SD EXTREME w/ Milk Thistle



## BigLou (Dec 25, 2014)

Hi all,

just started on here and this is my first journal so go easy on me! (this post will be a bit long as I'm catching up with 3 days workouts)

Ok, bit of background first. I started training properly about 4 years ago (19 at the time) weighing 8 1/2 stone (yes the mirror is the judge in this industry but, that's important to get out there, you will see why), skinny as anything. 5' 11" with a 26 1/2" waist, you get the picture. 4 years later here I am weighing in at 11 1/2 stone. 5' 11" and 29" waist, so it has been mostly lean gains in that time. I was stuck at 10 stone 10lbs for 6 months until I finally sorted my diet out and have gained approx 10lbs in 8 months on a natty diet. It isn't all lean. I look much better than I used to in the mirror though.

On Saturday I bought Extreme Labs SD Extreme. I was a tad skeptical so I am going to keep a track of my mood, gains and sides on here, also because I couldn't find many reviews.

First things first, my daily diet;

M1: Lemon water, Optimum nutrition Amino blast, Oats, milk and Green/Fruit Tea & SD Dose 1

M2: Cous Cous, with olive oil forked through sometimes

M3: Rice pudding (for fats as I have quite a low fat diet)

M4 (post workout): Tuna, Spinach, Optimum nutrition Glycomaize w/ flavoured squash

M5: Chicken

M6: Mum usually makes a high protein high carb meal with Fish or Beef and a staple food. SD Dose 2

M7: Omelette followed by bowl of Oats to keep me going through the night. Milk Thistle.

2.5-4 L water throughout day

Not exactly Bodybuilding food but this has gained me 10lbs approx. in 8 months so I'm happy.

Started the SD on Sunday and did legs. As it was the first day I wasn't expecting anything special. My workout is below. (Sets are generally 4x 8-12)

10 mins cycle

Squats

Leg extensions

Walking Lunges

Dumbbell Romanian deadlifts

Seated Leg Curls

Calf Raises

Donkey Calf Raises

I had an insane pump in my Quads & Hammies that day - I took the SD 6 hours before my workout so I am unsure what effect it had on me as was the first dose but I am kind of inclined to think it had a minor effect. Nonetheless it was a good workout. Got home rested up etc. Generally was in a good mood that day anyway, went to bed with bit of pump in quads still, nothing else to say really. Took some Milk Thistle for overnight.

Woke up late (09:30) Monday morning, slept like a baby for 7 hours or so. Popped one with some water and followed my diet. Went for a shoulder work out at 14:00. Stupidly I took my Milk Thistle before working out today. I am inclined to think that it should be left until after the session as I felt a bit drained, since it helps with liver function and can take a bit out of you in my opinion. Today's work out was:

10 Mins cycle

Seated Barbell Press

Seated Dumbbell Press s/s with Front Raises

Lateral Raises s/s with Front Raises

Upright Barbell Rows

Rear Delt Flye (Machine)

Rear Delt Flye (Cable)

I wasn't in the mood today and got a bit frustrated (some people running around like looneys basically) but when I checked the mirror afterwards my shoulders looked pumped, the rear delts were lacking but I'd lost my rag by then and probably lacked concentration. The mirror cheered me up! Ate my tuna and went home to rest up.

Come Tuesday (today) I woke up late again (09:00) but got straight up this time and had another tab. Left the milk thistle alone. Had Meals 1 & 2 this time and went to the gym with my pal. We did back today and I was proper up for it even though I felt a bit weak (my shoulder day had been with lighter weights, I assume due to being off over xmas). Today was:

10 Mins Stepper

Lat Pulldowns (Individual handles)

Straight arm pulldowns (rope)

Rack pulls

Barbell Rows (Barbell rested against a corner, the one Arnie does in Pumping Iron)

I was pooped after today's session. Had a good pump up all my back. I was in a good mood even though a few things on my mind. Had my post workout carbs and got home to eat tuna and spinach. Now just resting up as today took a lot out of me. Will be having Milk Thistle this evening to keep my liver happy.

All in all, I think it is too early to mention SD Extreme having a major effect as dosing 12.5 mg a day. I will go up to 25mg New Year's Day - 5 days in. I will say I have been feeling a bit more anxious than usual but I am not sure if that is the SD or me so I will keep an eye on that. My eye whites are ok but I am checking daily for signs of Jaundice. There has been a feeling of restlessness 2-3 hours after the dose but that settles down very quickly.

I will put photos up tomorrow in relaxed pose, front and both sides and will update them once a week on my rest day(s). I haven't figured out how to photograph my back yet lol.

Buying some Lecithin and Fish Oils as extra support in case cholesterol goes mental.

Laters!


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## Dan94 (Dec 29, 2013)

Good luck with this mate 

I'd say you need more protein judging by your diet, do you track cals/macros at all?


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## BigLou (Dec 25, 2014)

Dan94 said:


> Good luck with this mate
> 
> I'd say you need more protein judging by your diet, do you track cals/macros at all?


thanks pal 

I am inclined to agree, I have been a bit geeky and worked out my needs against intake on a spreadsheet based on my weight (72kg). It has worked out at a 40/45/15 split (p/c/f) across 2700 kcal, I haven't put my food weights in which may make a bit of difference. I need at leat 300kcal a day more, but now we have bought some beef I may be able to step up a bit.


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## Dan94 (Dec 29, 2013)

BigLou said:


> thanks pal
> 
> I am inclined to agree, I have been a bit geeky and worked out my needs against intake on a spreadsheet based on my weight (72kg). It has worked out at a 40/45/15 split (p/c/f) across 2700 kcal, I haven't put my food weights in which may make a bit of difference. I need at leat 300kcal a day more, but now we have bought some beef I may be able to step up a bit.


My fitness pal is a good app for your phone which is handy for tracking food compared to spreadsheets and such


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## BigLou (Dec 25, 2014)

Dan94 said:


> My fitness pal is a good app for your phone which is handy for tracking food compared to spreadsheets and such


Thanks for the heads up!


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## Dan94 (Dec 29, 2013)

BigLou said:


> Thanks for the heads up!


No worries man, happy to help


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## BigLou (Dec 25, 2014)

Ok, so after feeling out of it last night,I went to bed and slept through to my alarm but woke up feeling rougher than a badgers **** wiped with sandpaper. No idea what caused it although I think my milk thistle is on its date as I felt sick last night after taking some (again) and nearly vommed into my breakfast. Got up eventually and perked up after breakfast and a walk outside. As no gym for 3 days (its closed) Im cutting the carbs back a bit. I feel a lot better this afternoon after taking my SD this morning and having plenty to eat and drink. Looking forward to the small rest. I did go out last night and noticed I felt a bit more confident than usual, is that placebo or the SD? Unsure as only 4 days in but I am starting to notice the effects, albeit mild at the moment. My back is still slightly pumped from yesterday which I'm pleased with and I'm generally in a good mood at the moment. Tomorrow will see me take the dose to 25 mg. I haven't gone to myfitnesspal yet but will make that a priority, meantime I'm just adding proteinous snacks as and when I can. Fortunately mum makes high protein soups from legumes and meat stocks so it makes a nice change with the flavours.


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## BigLou (Dec 25, 2014)

Just a quick update, I was looking in the mirror and stuff and decided to pull a rear lat spread pose. My lower back is now pumping like I've been beasting the gym all day. I think the SD extreme has kicked in properly now as that's been a reported side in other reviews. Nothing that's gonna stop me though. In a great mood and my libido is up as well. Probably both go hand in hand ???? laters!


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## BigLou (Dec 25, 2014)

Ive heard anedoctes of sleepless nights on this stuff....

This is stupid 4AM and I feel like I could work out lol


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## sledgehammer123 (Dec 14, 2013)

Dan94 said:


> Good luck with this mate
> 
> I'd say you need more protein judging by your diet, do you track cals/macros at all?


^^^^What Dan94 said. Your first 3 meals need some protein. An example Meal 1, since you already have oats(I assume you made oatmeal) add some eggs in there. Could do like 2whole eggs with 6 eggs with white only. That would add 30g protein. Just a suggestion.

Protein builds muscle, carbs give you energy, fat helps with essential bodily functions. So keep a steady stream of amino's in your diet from protein to feed/repair/grow muscle from training. Carbs replenish glycogen stores after fasted sleep, pre-workout for energy to train hard, PWO to replenish glycogen stores. I know this is basic stuff but it helps as a reminder. When your using AAS, food will dictate your results.


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## BigLou (Dec 25, 2014)

sledgehammer123 said:


> ^^^^What Dan94 said. Your first 3 meals need some protein. An example Meal 1, since you already have oats(I assume you made oatmeal) add some eggs in there. Could do like 2whole eggs with 6 eggs with white only. That would add 30g protein. Just a suggestion.
> 
> Protein builds muscle, carbs give you energy, fat helps with essential bodily functions. So keep a steady stream of amino's in your diet from protein to feed/repair/grow muscle from training. Carbs replenish glycogen stores after fasted sleep, pre-workout for energy to train hard, PWO to replenish glycogen stores. I know this is basic stuff but it helps as a reminder. When your using AAS, food will dictate your results.


I agree with both of you there about adding the protein to morning meals. Mmm yeah I had a recipe for egg whites and oats but i seemed to cook it wrong every time and it kind of fell off the diet.

I totally agree diet is what dictates results AAS or natty and don't worry I took the reminder the way it was meant ???? I will re-evaluate my morning meals and update them as soon as, cheers guys!


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## BigLou (Dec 25, 2014)

Ok so Im 5 days in, i will do photos every 5 days and sides/gains/mood as well so that we can get 6 updates in 30 days. These pics are the most recent, I have been at this level for a few months now with the ocassional fluctuation in body fat and overall weight and appearance. This may not look much to some but from where I started at 8 1/2 stone am well pleased thus far. If anyone has pros/cons with my physique please be constructive.

So, sides:

Sleeplessness, lower back pumps, headaches caused by slight elevation in blood pressure and slight morning dehydration. All remedial with water/valerian and Green Tea so far.

Gains:

VASTLY improved mood, libido enhanced, better pumps in gym, slight gains in mass on upper back, upper legs and shoulders.

Mood:

Happy, confident but lethargic first thing.

Weight:

Im not using scales while on this however I was 72kg at weigh in. From the mirror today I would guess maybe 72.4kg. Or 159lbs approx


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## PHMG (Jun 15, 2010)

Get more protein in mate for sure. Remember, you are using a chemical that increase muscle recovery. This means you need to up the fuel for that recover, as in protein.

Any questions mate, fire away. I'm an ambassador for Extreme Labs.


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## Dan94 (Dec 29, 2013)

BigLou said:


> I agree with both of you there about adding the protein to morning meals. Mmm yeah I had a recipe for egg whites and oats but i seemed to cook it wrong every time and it kind of fell off the diet.
> 
> I totally agree diet is what dictates results AAS or natty and don't worry I took the reminder the way it was meant ???? I will re-evaluate my morning meals and update them as soon as, cheers guys!


Some simple suggestions mate. Whey protein in your oats in the morning, protein sorted. Few boiled eggs chopped in with the cous cous for next meal?

Easy


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## BigLou (Dec 25, 2014)

Ignore this post


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## BigLou (Dec 25, 2014)

PHMG said:


> Get more protein in mate for sure. Remember, you are using a chemical that increase muscle recovery. This means you need to up the fuel for that recover, as in protein.
> 
> Any questions mate, fire away. I'm an ambassador for Extreme Labs.


Cheers mate, actually it was your journal on the extreme labs (sd/xl I can't remember) that helped me make my decision to take it. I have more questions around diet to be honest and the hepatoxicity around the SD.



Dan94 said:


> Some simple suggestions mate. Whey protein in your oats in the morning, protein sorted. Few boiled eggs chopped in with the cous cous for next meal?
> 
> Easy


That is something I will put into my first 2 meals actually, it's a good 20-40g protein with no real effort to br fair. Although I have a q for both you guys, how do you keep your appetite so high for eating all the food? Intensive training can do so much but sometimes I physically cannot eat due to lack of appetite. Maybe I should ask this as a thread in a different forum I'm not sure.

Thanks for the tips and advice though, I'll update my diet with it from tomorrow when I'm back in the gym ????


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## PHMG (Jun 15, 2010)

BigLou said:


> Cheers mate, actually it was your journal on the extreme labs (sd/xl I can't remember) that helped me make my decision to take it. I have more questions around diet to be honest and the hepatoxicity around the SD.
> 
> That is something I will put into my first 2 meals actually, it's a good 20-40g protein with no real effort to br fair. Although I have a q for both you guys, how do you keep your appetite so high for eating all the food? Intensive training can do so much but sometimes I physically cannot eat due to lack of appetite. Maybe I should ask this as a thread in a different forum I'm not sure.
> 
> Thanks for the tips and advice though, I'll update my diet with it from tomorrow when I'm back in the gym ????


With regards to toxicity, just stick to recommended dose. No need to go over. To be honest, 20mg should be more than enough for most.

Diet wise, this is something you are going to have to work on yourself. Go for a baseline of 200g protein. Fats and carbs is going to be the balancing act which is different for every person.

For example, some people bulk on the same calories I cut on. It depends on so many factors. One thing is for sure though. If you are doing an hours hard graft in the gym per day, you will lose fat. I'm talking a proper hours graft. No chatting between sets. Just 20 seconds rest, onto the next set.

Combine that style of training with SD and you will del like your muscles are going to explode!!


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## PHMG (Jun 15, 2010)

BigLou said:


> Yeah I saw your journal for the extreme labs (SD or XL I think) and that was what helped me make my decision to get on this cause I'd been looking high and low for a decent review. It's more around my diet I have question's as you can probably tell.
> 
> That sounds like a good shout, I'll definitely try that. I have a q for both @Dan94 and @PHMG though, how do you manage to keep your appetite up? I know intense training is a basic but beyond that sometimes I just have no desire to eat even though I know I need it and mentally I want to but my body just will not let me.
> 
> But yes,protein is high on my shopping list! Thanks all!


I tend to eat far less in the morning as i dont have much of an appetite then. But give it an hour after training and i could eat anything. This is when i get the majority of calories in which is ideal because its the time when your body needs it most.


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## BigLou (Dec 25, 2014)

So just braved the gym, not my normal one as it's closed today *sad face* and fought it out with the new years resolutionists for the weights. Did chest and biceps today:

Incline dumbbell press

Flat dumbbell press

Flyes

Dumbbell Pullovers

Bicep curls (21s)

Seated curl

Concentration curl

Both incline press warm up sets felt stupid light even though I had used a heavier warm up weight than before, normally 14s then 20s but did 14s and 24s for 16&12 respectively. Working weight normally at 24s but as had warmed up with that used the 28s for 8-10 reps on sets. Went to flat bench next and used the 28s and didn't feel as heavy today so did dropsets with 18s then a final set with the 30s (heaviest there) to failiure. Again it didn't feel as heavy and pushed out 11 reps, normally I eke out 8/9 at this weight. Pullovers and flyes weren't anything to write home about, again used slightly heavier weight (12s not 10s for flyes, 24 for pullover). Went with the straight bar for curls and got a pump there almost instantly which remained for the rest of the biceps portion. My chest was pumped up too and was visible through my t-shirt. Had my glycomaize and aminiblast afterwards with 150g chicken while everyone stared at me wondering why I was eating at a table in the gym! I went there in a good mood and came back in a good mood. I'm happy to say that it's down to the SD as last time I did chest was before my SD and I noticed a big difference in the workout and overall feeling. Stepped on the scales out of curiosity and weight is at 73kg now. Haven't checked the mirror yet will do that after my bath and some more foods.

Honestly, I was quite skeptical about the claims of the guy at my usual gym but I am starting to come round to agreement with him now.


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## BigLou (Dec 25, 2014)

PHMG said:


> With regards to toxicity, just stick to recommended dose. No need to go over. To be honest, 20mg should be more than enough for most.
> 
> Diet wise, this is something you are going to have to work on yourself. Go for a baseline of 200g protein. Fats and carbs is going to be the balancing act which is different for every person.
> 
> ...


My biceps felt like they would pop off my arm at one point today!

Thanks for the heads up with the protein intake, I've usually been aiming for 120-140g (which I appreciate may not be shown on my original diet) but like you say, the SD improves muscle recovery so in this scenario more is better. My carbs and fats are something I will adjust in line with my protein because like you say, everyone is different!



PHMG said:


> I tend to eat far less in the morning as i dont have much of an appetite then. But give it an hour after training and i could eat anything. This is when i get the majority of calories in which is ideal because its the time when your body needs it most.


I've always preffered to eat more before a session because I used to have a major bout of low sugar if I hadn't eaten much before a session but again it's down to each person like you said. Although I do see why one might do it like that as the deficit in the morning would improve the appetite after a session. If I'm on the right lines that is. Yes refuelling after a session is a must as that's when our bodies need the protein and calories the most!

Thank you bud for the advices!


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## PHMG (Jun 15, 2010)

BigLou said:


> My biceps felt like they would pop off my arm at one point today!
> 
> Thanks for the heads up with the protein intake, I've usually been aiming for 120-140g (which I appreciate may not be shown on my original diet) but like you say, the SD improves muscle recovery so in this scenario more is better. My carbs and fats are something I will adjust in line with my protein because like you say, everyone is different!
> 
> ...


I'm the same re low sugar during training.

3 options to stop it.

Zero carbs in the meal before hand and more fats. This means no insulin spiking and using what sugars you do have in minutes. It just keeps a steady level flow of glucose.

A big pre workout meal with complex carbs, some good fats and protein. Again, slow release of energy rather than a peak and drop off the cliff.

Or take a carb drink with you and sip it throughout. obviously this will mean no need for spiking insulin and crap like that after (which is horse sh.it anyway).


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## BigLou (Dec 25, 2014)

PHMG said:


> I'm the same re low sugar during training.
> 
> 3 options to stop it.
> 
> ...


Given my current dietary situation with the need for more protein, the second option seems the best not only for that but I need a nice satisfied stomach. The middle option you put was the thinking behind my oats and cous cous early in the day. Today I had the oats first but then had chicken (normally I tapered my carbs after 1400 and increased my protein, not really having any before the gym) and then my cous cous and then some more chicken after the gym with my carb drink which I'm sure is partly why I felt so good in the gym and feel fine now.


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## PHMG (Jun 15, 2010)

BigLou said:


> Given my current dietary situation with the need for more protein, the second option seems the best not only for that but I need a nice satisfied stomach. The middle option you put was the thinking behind my oats and cous cous early in the day. Today I had the oats first but then had chicken (normally I tapered my carbs after 1400 and increased my protein, not really having any before the gym) and then my cous cous and then some more chicken after the gym with my carb drink which I'm sure is partly why I felt so good in the gym and feel fine now.


Yeah exactly. Cook you chicken with olive oil too. Stuff is awesome.


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## BigLou (Dec 25, 2014)

PHMG said:


> Yeah exactly. Cook you chicken with olive oil too. Stuff is awesome.


I'm drinking the stuff


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## BigLou (Dec 25, 2014)

So yesterday I had a day off as had a twinge in my left ankle and didn't want to risk squatting. Rested but today went to the gym for shoulders. Diet was good today, oats and cous cous and chicken in the morning then portion of homemade soup (legumes and chicken for protein and small amount of carbs in there). Felt good today. Had 1 SD in am on waking. So my workout was:

10 mins cycle

Lateral Raises

Dumbbell presses

Front raises

Rear delt raises (2×40)

V-bar pressdowns

Overhead tricep extensions (rope extension)

Delts pumped up well, could have had more intensity but had to fight for the weights today with every man and his dog doing shoulders. I cannot wait to get back into Majestic tomorrow! My mate took a video of my rear delt flyes and suffice to say I am very happy with the appearance of them.

I can hand on heart testify the effectiveness of the SD as being excellent. With a better diet this would be totally amazing so at least I know the downfall but diet can be fixed easily as dan and phmg have suggested.

Looking forward to legs tomorrow! Back at Majestic woohoo! Fyi I weighed in today at 74kg. Upper body looks better already, lats are thicker and chest has a bit more depth. Shoulders, we will see tomorrow once the pump has subsided.


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## BigLou (Dec 25, 2014)

Just had breakfast, changed it a bit as doing an earlier (for me) session today due to arrangements this week. Had my SD on waking with lemon water and large bowl of oats w/spinach and Rice pudding. Probably should have put protein in there but I don't like having protein before a session (generally I want to puke if I do). As I've been finding it hard to eat after a session due to lack of appetite I'm going to ditch the post workout carbs today to see if that makes a difference to my appetite when I get home. I'm planning on large omelette (3 whole eggs and 4 egg whites) w/ 100g tuna and then will eat protein throughout the day, stopping ny carbs at 6pm after dinner. The SD is definitely working on a side note. I feel bigger and look it in the mirror as well, will update pics in 2 days. Off to do legs now, wish me luck!


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## BigLou (Dec 25, 2014)

So today's leg session;

10 mins stepper

3x Box squats

3x leg press

1x25 leg press

1x leg extensions (50)

2x25 Dumbbell Romanian deadlift

1x30 leg curl

5x10 seated leg curl

Went very well, lifted more than usual on all lifts. Quads and Hams pumped up nicely and had a decent sweat on even though air con is on in Majestic today. Bit of shape coming through but as long as I don't have chicken legs I'm happy. I'm going for the physique division but that's not an excuse to slack on leg day so I still push away at it.


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## BigLou (Dec 25, 2014)

Wow!!

I'm in a rush so thought stuff it....

3 whole eggs

1 scoop glycomaize

3 scoops amino blast

4-500ml milk

Shake it up

Tastes beaut. I was looking at it preparing to vomit. About 37g carbs 30g protein (assuming eggs are 6g protein and 7g protein per 200milk) im unsure about the fat content.


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## PHMG (Jun 15, 2010)

BigLou said:


> Wow!!
> 
> I'm in a rush so thought stuff it....
> 
> ...


Yeah fat content will be fine with that shake. Good thinking.


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## BigLou (Dec 25, 2014)

Didn't update yesterday due to time. Had a good chest session and pumped up nicely. Have started to eat a good serving of chicken in the morning before lunch, before my sessions now and seem to be reaping benefits. Chest was simple yesterday;

10mins stepper

Incline dbbell press

Flat dbbell press

Cable crossover

Hammer Press

Bicep curls (21s)

Standing single arm curls (dropsets)

One arm Cable curls

Today I had a business meeting so had to skimp a bit on my diet but went with an organic margherita and green tea. Diet was otherwise BAU. Did back today with matey at the 24hr gym as he can't afford majestic single sessions (*sad angry face*);

Lat pulldowns (handle extensions)

Dbbell bent over rows

Dbbell single arm rows

Wide(ish) chins (total 25 reps)

Straight arm pulldowns (rope extension, 24hr gym is rubbish)

Again back pumped up nicely. Have been having my egg/carbs shake each day since I stumbled on it and once I've found a decent powder to stick in I will mess around with the eggs until I find the best concoction.

All in all I am feeling really good and can see noticeable gains on my chest (a big problem area for me) and good progress on my back, delts and legs.

I now know I should havr properly nailed my diet, so far this is working well but next time I will have every detail ironed out.


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## BigLou (Dec 25, 2014)

Did legs today as I like to train legs fairly close together. Personal preference etc. Anyway. Here it is:

10 mins stepper

Box squats*

Close stance leg press

Leg extensions (2×30)

Leg curls s/s donkey calf raise

Seated leg curls s/s standing calf raise

*box squats I did a PR today. When I started my legs pumped up almost immediately. This is definitely the SD. Worked up as normal. When it came to it, decided to go for it, with a spotter. Normally I will work with 90kgs for squats and feel accomplished. Anyway my PR is 100x3. I did 105x7 today, 5 without a spot, 2 with not a lot of spotting but enough to help. Next set went up to 107.5 and got a good 5 out. 3 without a spot, 2 with a fair amount of spotting. Suffice to say the SD is taking effect. Could have done more but had the rest of my workout to do.

If you haven't worked it out by now, 8lbs of decent weight later and good strength gains, this SD is excellent.


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## Dan94 (Dec 29, 2013)

Good going mate :thumbup1:


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## BigLou (Dec 25, 2014)

No gym today, went to bed last night feeling ok but then my nose decided to show me exactly what Niagra Falls is like. Blood everywhere, felt super lightheaded and just wanted to sleep. I woke up feeling proper groggy this morning and crawled out of bed. Parents just looked at me "you look ill". Dizziness and general tiredness today. To be honest I want to go to sleep right now.

I'm unsure of the cause. Thing is this time last year I had nosebleeds for a month and the DR said it was an infection and gave me some stuff to sort it out with. I'm hoping that is the case this time although part of me is wondering if it is partly to do with the SD as that *can* increase blood pressure among other things.. Though would it increase BP to a point my nose explodes? Doubt it. I will look into it though for my own sanity. Tomorrow I will be having off as well due to arrangements. As it is an all dayer tomorrow I will be doing a lot of cooking today. When my nose isn't bleeding that is.


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## mlydon (Dec 4, 2014)

good luck pal :thumbup1:


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## little_johnson (Dec 7, 2014)

im prone to nosebleeds but when i did my sd cycle my nose was bleeding multiple times a day, its a sign of your blood pressure rising dude, did you preload hawtborne berry? and are you geting any now?


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## BigLou (Dec 25, 2014)

little_johnson said:


> im prone to nosebleeds but when i did my sd cycle my nose was bleeding multiple times a day, its a sign of your blood pressure rising dude, did you preload hawtborne berry? and are you geting any now?


hmmm no I didn't as generally BP in the fam is med-low end of spectrum. I will have a look into hawthorne berry like you sugget, sorting a dr's appt for monday anyway so they will give definitive answer. Am inclined to think it's mostly infection though as previously it's always been the case but safe rather than sorry.


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## little_johnson (Dec 7, 2014)

yeah my bp was fine like i say even if your prone to nose bleeds like me best to get it checked mate, better safe than sorry  good luck with sd mate, i only lasted about 3 weeks before sides were unbearable but the stuff is magic!


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## BigLou (Dec 25, 2014)

little_johnson said:


> yeah my bp was fine like i say even if your prone to nose bleeds like me best to get it checked mate, better safe than sorry  good luck with sd mate, i only lasted about 3 weeks before sides were unbearable but the stuff is magic!


Yes I totally agree the stuff is amazing, I'm interested to know the sides you had as I'm 2 weeks in on 2 tabs/day and have ocassional headaches and very thirsty. Otherwise I feel ok (sods law says otherwise now) with decent gains so far!


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## little_johnson (Dec 7, 2014)

i was thirsty 24/7 an my pee was always coming out yellow (shows the stress on your liver i think... correct me if im wrong) i was having headaches quite a bit but down a load of water an it should get rid of it. the lethargy was mental first thing in the morning i could no be bothered to do anything which is a killer when your on a shift pattern. the nose bleeds began in the 2nd week until i cut my cycle short (around a week before planned) so 3 weeks in. my appetite was the worst i reckon this was due to starting to be shutdown this also began in week 2 around half way through i couldnt get the cals i needed in an if i forced down my meals i was projectile vomiting

like i say the stuffs great the strength was immense an igrew like a weed, i put on just over a stone and lost maybe 3-4 lbs during pct. a lot of people say this stuff is like marmite either it agrees with you.or it doesnt for me its a love hate, i love the strength and size gains i had but the sides far outway the benefits for me


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## BigLou (Dec 25, 2014)

little_johnson said:


> i was thirsty 24/7 an my pee was always coming out yellow (shows the stress on your liver i think... correct me if im wrong) i was having headaches quite a bit but down a load of water an it should get rid of it. the lethargy was mental first thing in the morning i could no be bothered to do anything which is a killer when your on a shift pattern. the nose bleeds began in the 2nd week until i cut my cycle short (around a week before planned) so 3 weeks in. my appetite was the worst i reckon this was due to starting to be shutdown this also began in week 2 around half way through i couldnt get the cals i needed in an if i forced down my meals i was projectile vomiting
> 
> like i say the stuffs great the strength was immense an igrew like a weed, i put on just over a stone and lost maybe 3-4 lbs during pct. a lot of people say this stuff is like marmite either it agrees with you.or it doesnt for me its a love hate, i love the strength and size gains i had but the sides far outway the benefits for me


Mmm the thirst has been similar for me but I'm used to having 3l a day+ so it didn't really make a lot of difference. As far as aware, yellow pee is ok. It's the shade of yellow thats the concern. Dark urine after drinking lots of water is a sign of liver stress as it is getting rid of extra bilirubin (dead blood cells/bile) in urine instead of just stools. Pale stools are a sign of liver stress too.

It's the same for me on the headaches front, down a glass and I'm fine. The lethargy hasn't been so much of an issue thus far and the nosebleeds is a matter of see what the dr says. 1 stone? Wow that's good esp losing only 3/4lbs pct. 10lbs gain over all then. So far for me its a win win. Hope it carries on this way!


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## little_johnson (Dec 7, 2014)

same here mate but usually when you down like a pint of water you feel like youve quenched your thirst were as on sd it was like i could drink and drink and drink an id still be thirsty, yeah my pee started coming out dark mate it was worrying.

are you taking any pre workouts btw? its advised not to take any on sd because it raises your blood pressure a lot, so taking a pre workout with any vasodialating effects it will worsen it (cant remember if its vasodialating or caffeine that vasoconstricts which is the problem one of the two) i just avoided pre workouts all together.

an yeah surpisingly i didnt put a lot of fat on tbh, if anything i think i leaned out a bit but this was due to the struggling to eat i think, if its working for you keep smashing it mate 

my next one is going to be a mild halo, epi or something along those lines so low sides during my cut


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## BigLou (Dec 25, 2014)

little_johnson said:


> same here mate but usually when you down like a pint of water you feel like youve quenched your thirst were as on sd it was like i could drink and drink and drink an id still be thirsty, yeah my pee started coming out dark mate it was worrying.
> 
> are you taking any pre workouts btw? its advised not to take any on sd because it raises your blood pressure a lot, so taking a pre workout with any vasodialating effects it will worsen it (cant remember if its vasodialating or caffeine that vasoconstricts which is the problem one of the two) i just avoided pre workouts all together.
> 
> ...


Yeah dark pee isn't great, early indicator of cholestasis, did you eyes yellow as well? Though at least you saw the signs! I know too many people who power through 

I generally avoid pre workout anyway but that's because I have a caffeine intolerance. Yeah it's vasoconstriction, that's why Jack3D was banned in UK, as it constricted the veins.

It's lean gains for me as well but as my pic shows, I'm generally lean anyway! thanks though pal! From what I can tell, I imagine extremelabs EPI is very mild so might be worth looking at that?

One thing, I did have milk thistle for 4 days at beginning of cycle and will be again at the end (or as required) as it helps liver function. Otherwise I have no support other than my PCT. Have you considered that alongside lecithin? Lecithin is good in the morning shakes and helps with binding fats among other benefits.


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## little_johnson (Dec 7, 2014)

nah eyes were fine tbh mate 

ahh i knew it was one of them aha. yeah a lot of logs that i read before my cycle a lot of people were saying they were losing fat and gaining, its a strong substance so its highly possibe  the extreme labs epi/halo is the ones im gunna go for 

an ow arent you taking milk thistle throughout? nah never jeard of that letichin will read up on it


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## BigLou (Dec 25, 2014)

little_johnson said:


> nah eyes were fine tbh mate
> 
> ahh i knew it was one of them aha. yeah a lot of logs that i read before my cycle a lot of people were saying they were losing fat and gaining, its a strong substance so its highly possibe  the extreme labs epi/halo is the ones im gunna go for
> 
> an ow arent you taking milk thistle throughout? nah never jeard of that letichin will read up on it


Those must have been the same logs I read lol ? mmm tbh all the extremelabs ph look good. I wish I'd picked them up at bodypower when they were 50%!! You gonna stack them or just the one product?

Nah, the MT was making me feel rough and lethargic regardless if taken with SD or not. Worked out as once stopped taking felt fine. Had some liv52 once for a previous cycle but won't touch again as I developed mild heavy metal poisoning - must have been that batch. I checked it out and numerous places said that it can have trace heavy metal elements, checked out symptoms and itchy red eyes and lethargy were tell tale signs! No liv52 for me again! Again might have been just that batch.

I drink Green Tea instead and cook in Extra Virgin Olive Oil a lot. Both are good for the liver, HDL/LDL cholesterol and BP support. Yeah Arnie talks about lecithin in his encyclopedia of BB and it's mentioned in other places as well. You can buy granules to stick in oats/shakes and you don't notice until you pour half a tub in by accident ???????? hahaha

Lecithin Uses, Benefits & Side Effects - Drugs.com Herbal Database - scroll down for liver/cholesterol support


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## BigLou (Dec 25, 2014)

Note to self (and by extension others too):

Do not take within 2 hours of bedtime on non-training days. I am wide awake and really could do with sleep but my body will not shut down.


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## little_johnson (Dec 7, 2014)

yeah there the ones aha

ahh never new that about milk thistle tbh.

im thinking about doing it as a standalone during my cut just so i dont go catabolic an help keep my strength up.

cheers i will read up on that


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## BigLou (Dec 25, 2014)

little_johnson said:


> yeah there the ones aha
> 
> ahh never new that about milk thistle tbh.
> 
> ...


Yeah the MT did that too me, again it's all about indiviual effects though.

Well the EPI is level 2 according to their scale so it should make a nice little boost in baseline 

I'm going to get the XL or TB next i think after this if I don't do this again methinks


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## BigLou (Dec 25, 2014)

Today ended up being bad on the diet front.

My food went off lol so I had to improv a cheat day of sorts. Had breakfast fine but then had large maccy d *slaps around face* and more processed food for dinner as it's all gone wrong today. Not looking forward to waking up tomorrow. Might as well enjoy it though and get some pizza and ice cream in too lol!! I'll be able to get something clean in though with tuna and potatoes at least.


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## PHMG (Jun 15, 2010)

BigLou said:


> Today ended up being bad on the diet front.
> 
> My food went off lol so I had to improv a cheat day of sorts. Had breakfast fine but then had large maccy d *slaps around face* and more processed food for dinner as it's all gone wrong today. Not looking forward to waking up tomorrow. Might as well enjoy it though and get some pizza and ice cream in too lol!! I'll be able to get something clean in though with tuna and potatoes at least.


Draw a line under it, forget it and sort it out for tomorrow.


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## BigLou (Dec 25, 2014)

PHMG said:


> Draw a line under it, forget it and sort it out for tomorrow.


Agreed ????

Extra minutes on the stepper for me!


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## little_johnson (Dec 7, 2014)

yeah it was actully phmg that advised me to use tb, but still debating  an dw about it mate tomorrows a new day, how longs left on the cycle?


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## BigLou (Dec 25, 2014)

little_johnson said:


> yeah it was actully phmg that advised me to use tb, but still debating  an dw about it mate tomorrows a new day, how longs left on the cycle?


any qs about it he's the man! It's a nice dilemma ey 

Yeah tomorrow is a start of a new week workout wise so looking forward to it! Umm I've got about 2 weeks left now  I expect about another 4-6lbs gains and 2lbs loss during pct


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## little_johnson (Dec 7, 2014)

yeah hes a helpfull dude and not long then mate keep it up


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## BigLou (Dec 25, 2014)

Felt I needed to do something about the diet so mashed up another shake

2 whole eggs

4tsp peanut butter

400ml milk

8tsp oats

1 scoop Optimum nutrition glycomaize

Due to time in night I didn't want amino blast but wanted some flavour to it so stuck in the peanut butter. Tasted alright but a bit salty. Got an early session at 9ish tomorrow so decided to have a carb heavy drink. Approx 20g protein, 50g carbs, 25g fats. Salt content tasted high but as naturally low salt diet am not complaining. Diet wise today is a write off and will move forwards.


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## BigLou (Dec 25, 2014)

Brilliant session today. The additional carbs/protein at bedtime seemed to help. Still taking SD and still feeling positive effects. Did chest this morning after munching on large breakfast.

10 mins stepper - fast tempo

Incline dbbell press

Flat dbbell press

Cable crossover

Standing curls

Incline curls s/s concentration curls

Managed to get out 3x8 on 30s on incline today then went down to 26s as form went on flat press. Strength has definitely improved as this shows. At beginning of cycle my press was 3x8 on 26s. I know I said I wouldn't weigh in but I have been and today I was in at 75kg. 3 kg so far but that equates to approx 6/7lbs.


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## BigLou (Dec 25, 2014)

Took SD on waking again. Improved my diet today slightly. Had omellette w/ bfast and then tuna with cous cous and rice pud before gym.

15mins stepper

Squats

Leg press

Leg extension (2×20)

Romanian Deadlift

Lying leg curl (2×30, dropsets)

Got a good sweat on and good pump in legs but had an insane l/back pump. Am sure technique was fine so putting down to sd. Stretching alleviated only for 1 set at a time. It did lower my intensity but I still managed to used improved weights. Again, legs pumped well and I'm feeling great. Apart from l/back that is. Hungry as anything so chowing down on chicken now and beefs at dinner *tongue sticking out yummy face*


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## BigLou (Dec 25, 2014)

Feeling good today. Muscles feel a lot fuller and Im looking more full. I'd shown parents my body (haha, cut me slack, I live with them and they're interested in bodybuilding etc) and deliberately didn't show them again until today. They said they'd noticed I looked fuller and I was coming back from the gym fully pumped. They did say I seemed to have some water retention. I put that down to sodium intake and an increase in water intake in combination with the SD. Bear in mind though as my pics from before show, I'm naturally quite lean so a bit of water retention is acceptable IMO.

If I can keep losses post cycle to a minimum and continue growth, I may be able to consider a physique comp this year but that is seriously pushing it... who knows


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## BigLou (Dec 25, 2014)

So it was a shoulders day today. Fed up with my current routine so decided to try Mentzer's principles. I don't fully agree with his workouts so just took the intensity principle and lessened the volume but used tempo to increase intensity.

1 warm up set side dbbell raise 3-1-3

2x8 side dbbell raise (failure) 3-1-3

1 warm up set overhead machine press 2-1-2

2x10 overhead press (failure) 2-1-3

2x35 rear delt flyes 2-1-2

1 warm up set triceps pressdown (rope) 3-1-3

2x12 triceps pressdown (failure) 3-1-3

2x12 machine dips (full stack, failure) 3-2-3

Delts were aching like mad, triceps were popping too. I won't always use this kind of training but it makes a nice change. Good session today. SD is working well on 2 tabs/day


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## BigLou (Dec 25, 2014)

Didnt update yesterday. Nothing of note to say. Did chest and biceps.

Incline dbbell presses

Flat dbbell presses

Cable crossover (2× failure)

Straight bar curls s/s alternating arm curls

Even though less volume, had very little rest in between sets. The SD seems to make me work harder and faster.

Today was abs & legs. Again kept volume low but intensity increased again.

Swiss ball crunch

Layouts (I have no idea what they are called, sit on edge of bench and bring knees to chest)

Side Crunch

Leg press (all failure except first set) 1x20 80kg

1x18 120kg

1x14 200kg

1x8 220kg

3x Leg extension s/s Lying curls

(40kgx16 /25kgx14)

Standing calf raise 1x20 70(unsure if machine kg or lbs)

1x15 140 weight

Lower back pumps were intense today. Seems to be on leg day I get these. Stretching alleviates it mostly.

Quads pumped up nicely and felt more fatigued today. Session was 45 mins tops but felt I got more out of it today.


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## BigLou (Dec 25, 2014)

Ok, this is me 2 weeks in. Yes, these are different poses to my original images so hard to differentiate. Chest and biceps are lagging and posing is still quite off. and my posing is poor haha :surrender:

BUT.

Chest has gained size compared to a fortnight ago. Biceps may not look much but they've gained approx 1/2 inch which tbf am pleased with. My shoulders are my favourite body part and I like to think my strength too. I do like my upper back a lot but I need my lats to insert lower down my body. Being 23, it is a matter of training, diet and time. Legs , notably my hamstrings and outer sweep, have come on a lot but haven't got any pics to show. Will update an edit with legs later. They were 21" but now 22". Calves were 13 1/2 but now 14". Biceps now 14". Chest not measured. Waist is at 30 again but once I tighten my diet up a bit it will go back to 28 in no time.

All in all, I can see a difference from 2 weeks a go as can family, friends and gym buddies.


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## BigLou (Dec 25, 2014)

Last night session was good. Did back and shoulders. Decided to stick with something similar to Mentzer's principles.

1x pulldown warm up

2x Superset:

Nautilus pullover

Pulldown

4x Deadlifts (60×8, 100×6, 130×2,130×2)

Shoulders

1x side raise machine

2x Superset:

Side raise machine

Dumbbell side raises

3x hammer strength overhead presses

all exercises to total failure. I used a 2-1-2 tempo on all exercises. Time under tension seems to be the magic ingredient for me. Back felt so pumped and driving home my shoulders were so tired it was hard to change gear lol. SD is a good product. Changed routine but diet and everything else have remained same. The SD is a top product


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## BigLou (Dec 25, 2014)

Rest day yesterday, re-evaluated meals and workouts.

Today, so far:

M1: 3 egg whites 2 whole eggs omelette, 100g oats w/milk, optimum nutrition whey w/gaspari nutrition creatine

M2: 130g cous cous, 100g tuna, 400g rice pudding (just a little extra carbs before gym)

Trained chest/abs today

3x warm up sets incline dbbell press

1x superset:

Pec deck (total failure) 2-4-4

Incline dbbell press (rest pause, drop set x3, total failure) 2-2-2

Abs

4x10 weighted swiss ball crunches

3x10 layouts

Superset

Side planks

Standing side crunch

M3: 200g chicken, banana

You wouldn't believe it but my chest was pumping and fully fatigued, session was barely 40 mins but was very enjoyable. 20 secs max rest today. Abs seem to be responding to the additional work too. Weighed in at 76.5kg today. The creatine will have been a nice boost and the extra protein will deffo help. Still on 2 tabs/day. Am in a good mood almost constantly!

Meals 4 and 5 are coming up later, i'm going to start making my own protein bars after I found a decent recipe online to help out too.


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## BigLou (Dec 25, 2014)

Had to bite the bullet and buy new clothes today...

New jacket size - 42R up from 40R in a few weeks, trousers still a 30 (I measured at 29") waist, neck is 16 now instead of 15 1/2. Goes to show it's having a marked effect on my training and physique. The addition of the creatine will add a bit extra as well. Not sure whether to stay with SD for next cycle, have EPI with the SD or just go for the XL. Either way, there's no messing around with this stuff it's legit and good quality. Just need to make sure I don't grow out of my new clothes too soon!


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## BigLou (Dec 25, 2014)

Shoulders and arms today. Creatine is starting to take effect as well now after introducing it to the diet. Again, all sets to failure apart from warmups.

Abs

4x 10 Weighted Swiss ball crunch

4x 10 layouts(?)

3x12 Side Crunch

Shoulders

1 warmup machine side raise

1xSuperset

Machine side raise

Bent over raise

Side raise

Overhead Hammer Press Drop set - 3 drops

Arms

1x Superset

Straight bar curl

Standing dbbell curl w/ twist

Triceps

1x Superset

Pressdown (straightbar)

Weighted Tricep dips

All reps were 2-1-2 tempo. Could not move arms very freely after, shoulders and arms were pumped and fatigued. The SD is helping me push through that "wall". Last week of ph now. Top marks.


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## BigLou (Dec 25, 2014)

Havent updated for a while as been extremely busy. Basically, BAU with training and diet. Started PCT today, final weigh in was 78kg. Total of 6kgs gain, no noticeable water retention either but i did cut my carbs down slightly for a few days. Strength is definitely up as well. Gone up a shirt, jacket and trouser size lol which is pretty decent for 4 weeks. Will see what happens on PCT and how much, if anything is lost.


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## BigLou (Dec 25, 2014)

Pictures at the end of the SD.

Final weigh in: 78.4kg

Increase of 6kg in 4 weeks. Very little water retention on top of my baseline off cycle amounts. If anything I think I've leaned out a bit. Anyway. Damn good cycle and I'm on PCT now. Friends have mentioned how much bigger I appear than usual and the proof is in the numbers. Waist is actually 29.5, biceps 14" (they were a shaky 13.2), quads 22" up from 21", haven't measured chest yet. Cba to get the tape measure yet again. Mood is also improved. I'd say due to strength and size gains but also due to higher test levels. 9/10 due to occasional lethargy issues.


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## Dan94 (Dec 29, 2013)

Nice mate

Overall would you say it's worth it? Price vs sides vs gains etc


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## BigLou (Dec 25, 2014)

Dan94 said:


> Nice mate
> 
> Overall would you say it's worth it? Price vs sides vs gains etc


Sorry mate the notification didn't come up!

Price, as I'd got it from my gym it was slightly more expensive than the site but still a good price.

Sides weren't overly noticeable. Did get some testicular atrophy but very easily sorted out. Otherwise mood was good. Very little water retention as well.

EDIT: I didn't mention lower back pumps. I had to stop squatting and deadlifting for a week they were so intense. Could not move when had them. Played a game of football and spent a lot of time on the deck due to back pumps so went in goal for a while. Actually it was a good game, strength gains definitely showed as I was able to hold defenders off easily and block attackers on corners when I was on pitch, including the larger lads. Shot power had increased, hit a shot just outside the box and was blocked, rebound went to halfway line. Normally I'm out of breath and panting in a game but I was mildly tired instead this time. This may due to being in goal for a while lol. Although I do feel fitter as well.

Gains came up at 6kg or so in 4 weeks. They did slow in the 4th week so that was when I stuck some creatine monohydrate in and upped food intake. I did notice a bit more water in the 3rd week so cut the carbs back a bit and continued to grow.

Overall, a top dollar product. Friends mentioned how much bigger I looked and I was mildly accused (in a passing comment)of being on gear lol (technically they are right lol) which in my book is a good sign that it is working. Strength went up and intensity did as well. Once PCT is over, month off and then April I'll either stick with SD or go to XL as in May I'm going to the expo in birmingham, will start to prep in May for a physique comp coming up in late August. I'll decide in June/July if I feel I'm a good enough standard.

Ah yeah, I haven't lost much in the way of Gains so far. 1kg is all I've dropped but my strength is still where it was.

IMO -

10/10 GAINS

9/10 PRICE (from my gym remember)

9/10 SIDES - did get slightly stronger anxiety than usual, wouldn't recommend to someone on anti-anxiety meds.


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## superdrol (Aug 9, 2012)

Nice journal bud, I'm a lot higher fat % than you, but reading this and taking it in even as a new guy doing my first cycle makes me realise why my journal that is a few weeks old and will feature epi as of tomorrow morning is hopefully benefit someone else like yours has me, I'm considering sd for a second cycle in several months...

Next time try 3g taurine and bananas to keep pumps at bay, ive got it dosed at 3g plus two bananas a day to help prevent em in my epi cycle


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## BigLou (Dec 25, 2014)

dumdum said:


> Nice journal bud, I'm a lot higher fat % than you, but reading this and taking it in even as a new guy doing my first cycle makes me realise why my journal that is a few weeks old and will feature epi as of tomorrow morning is hopefully benefit someone else like yours has me, I'm considering sd for a second cycle in several months...
> 
> Next time try 3g taurine and bananas to keep pumps at bay, ive got it dosed at 3g plus two bananas a day to help prevent em in my epi cycle


Thanks  I'm glad it's of use. If the SD is anything to go by, the EPI although 'weaker' should still have good benefits as it's a first cycle providing diet is on point. Definitely would recommend SD once EPI&PCT is finished!

Yeah I'd read about the taurine but once I'd changed squats and deadlifts for leg press supersets and machine bent over rows respectively the pumps disappeared. I found a banana a day really helped me out so you're deffo onto something with that.

One thing about bodyfat, are you sure it's fat and not water? Once I decreased sodium/carb intake in line with other variables I found water retention decreased through higher water/potassium/creatine intake (potassium from the bananas) and the water was drawn into the muscles or flushed out. Might be worth a consideration?

I digress. It's good stuff mate!


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## superdrol (Aug 9, 2012)

Oh it's definately fat bud, I can pinch an inch on my love handles lol, Id need to dehydrate like the Sahara to lose that much water! I carry a thin layer of fat all over but a lot round my **** and lower back in a band round to my belly button, getting leaner without epi mind so I'm looking forward to assistance (gonna run ECA stack aswell with 3k cals training day and 2700 rest days and it should fall off I reckon) reckon I'm 25% fat at the minute...


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## BigLou (Dec 25, 2014)

dumdum said:


> Oh it's definately fat bud, I can pinch an inch on my love handles lol, Id need to dehydrate like the Sahara to lose that much water! I carry a thin layer of fat all over but a lot round my **** and lower back in a band round to my belly button, getting leaner without epi mind so I'm looking forward to assistance (gonna run ECA stack aswell with 3k cals training day and 2700 rest days and it should fall off I reckon) reckon I'm 25% fat at the minute...


Ahhaa oh I see! Tbf, If you are leaning out as it is then you're obviously doing something right and going onto PH should help with lean gain at the very least.

I dunno how you train but for me, the SD pushed my intensity up to the extent I was taking barely 45 seconds rests, which obviously helped with leaning out. The EPI should be able to help out in that area especially with an ECA stack. I have caffeine intolerance so don't use that anymore lol.


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## superdrol (Aug 9, 2012)

BigLou said:


> Ahhaa oh I see! Tbf, If you are leaning out as it is then you're obviously doing something right and going onto PH should help with lean gain at the very least.
> 
> I dunno how you train but for me, the SD pushed my intensity up to the extent I was taking barely 45 seconds rests, which obviously helped with leaning out. The EPI should be able to help out in that area especially with an ECA stack. I have caffeine intolerance so don't use that anymore lol.


I'm doing stronglifts 5x5 with extra volume in the third, fourth and fifth sets while on cycle, I tried extra bench on Friday at 57.5kg and did 5,5,10,8,7... The epi should kick in properly in the third week which Ive timed to coincide with circa 100kg squats which is where I got too last time I did sl5x5 before I met a lass oop North from newcastle and then split up... Then got psiatica last yr and started back hard this new year, diet is cock on and ive been gently losing fat on 2750 cals and now I'm gonna up it slightly to 3k on training days (so 800 extra cals a week) and 2750 on rest days purely because as the weights get heavier, I can't wait, ive always been over 20% body fat since age 10 lol, I blame my gran bless her for being such a good cook lol, would love to have abs and am determined to get em this yr!


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## BigLou (Dec 25, 2014)

dumdum said:


> I'm doing stronglifts 5x5 with extra volume in the third, fourth and fifth sets while on cycle, I tried extra bench on Friday at 57.5kg and did 5,5,10,8,7... The epi should kick in properly in the third week which Ive timed to coincide with circa 100kg squats which is where I got too last time I did sl5x5 before I met a lass oop North from newcastle and then split up... Then got psiatica last yr and started back hard this new year, diet is cock on and ive been gently losing fat on 2750 cals and now I'm gonna up it slightly to 3k on training days (so 800 extra cals a week) and 2750 on rest days purely because as the weights get heavier, I can't wait, ive always been over 20% body fat since age 10 lol, I blame my gran bless her for being such a good cook lol, would love to have abs and am determined to get em this yr!


EPI should kick in quicker than that, the write up talks about it being at an optimal dose on the 2nd week. If SD is anything to go by, I could feel the effects within 4 days. Personally I'd expect to feel the effects on the second week providing diet and training is spot on, especially if it's only a 4/5 week cycle. Looking at the profile of the active ingredient, it is very favourable on the anabolic/androgenic scale towards the anabolic side of things, very anti-estrogenic IF I am correct. Strength will depend more on sticking exactly to the routine, as this product is more geared for so called 'dry gains'. Due to the 17a methylated carbon, I would definitely recommend a milk thistle minimum as this is your first cycle (If memory serves) and then their PCT product.

I can't speak for calorific intake as we both have completely different goals and bodies but if that is what working at the moment then continue with it but during the cycle you may need to alter that along with the macros. I only say that as that is what I ended up doing. I had to tell my mum off for making nice food lol so I feel your pain!


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## superdrol (Aug 9, 2012)

Yes it is very anti estrogen apparantly, I'm doing 40 days so six full training weeks and have bananas, Hawthorne berry and taurine included already into the supplements I'm taking in the run up, three weeks is when most people talk of epi kicking in fully hence the slightly longer than usual cycle than say SD or m1t, I'm sure I'll start feeling it way sooner but it gets to its best in the third week, I can't wait, ive been waiting for tomorrow since first starting to contemplate a cycle 

As for liver support I'm using liv52 (I have extreme labs ocs aswell, but was saving that for second cycle aswell as more liv52) and for pct I have Nolva 20/20/20/20 (20mg tabs so can't really go lower) if I go with an epi stack or a solid m1t/sd cycle I'll prob run tudca for cycle support as it seems like it's probably one of the best of the liver supports, and got enough Nolva and clomid for a harder cycle too...


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## stone14 (Mar 24, 2005)

What's the verdict this stuff good then? And there.m1t?


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## BigLou (Dec 25, 2014)

stone14 said:


> What's the verdict this stuff good then? And there.m1t?


Haven't tried the M1T yet, the SD is Top dollar :thumb:

Pros - Muscle Mass increased, Mood Improved, Stayed relatively lean (partly diet I think), a low(ish) dose will give results

Cons - Agitated mood at times, first few days provided restless sleep, testicular atrophy (simple AI obviously needed), some water retention (if diet went downhill)

I'm weighing up whether to go with XL next or stay with the SD... that's another journal though!


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## BigLou (Dec 25, 2014)

dumdum said:


> Yes it is very anti estrogen apparantly, I'm doing 40 days so six full training weeks and have bananas, Hawthorne berry and taurine included already into the supplements I'm taking in the run up, three weeks is when most people talk of epi kicking in fully hence the slightly longer than usual cycle than say SD or m1t, I'm sure I'll start feeling it way sooner but it gets to its best in the third week, I can't wait, ive been waiting for tomorrow since first starting to contemplate a cycle
> 
> As for liver support I'm using liv52 (I have extreme labs ocs aswell, but was saving that for second cycle aswell as more liv52) and for pct I have Nolva 20/20/20/20 (20mg tabs so can't really go lower) if I go with an epi stack or a solid m1t/sd cycle I'll prob run tudca for cycle support as it seems like it's probably one of the best of the liver supports, and got enough Nolva and clomid for a harder cycle too...


Ah good to see you have prepared properly, too many people go in to PH/AAS without proper attention. Only one body given to us, respect it! Tomorrow is only a few hours away bud!

Ew I hate Liv52 lol. The tub I had gave me mega itchy eyes amongst other stuff, was probably a dodgy tub. Turned out to be mild heavy metal poisoning! Something to do with Indian Manufacturers after looking at anecdotal and journaled evidence. I don't mean to scare lol. Otherwise what you have there is spot on. I contemplated Nolva on cycle but as I've been ok before I decided against it but there is anecdotal evidence to suggest it could be prudent. That's another conversation for another thread though. Stick with PH's for a while before anything stronger IMO. But then, I'm 24 and got more test than a Musting Bull Elephant!


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## stone14 (Mar 24, 2005)

Did you.buy from ebay?


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## BigLou (Dec 25, 2014)

stone14 said:


> Did you.buy from ebay?


Nah, from my gym. Slightly more expensive than the site but saved time in the post.


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## GDawg500 (Feb 2, 2015)

dumdum said:


> Yes it is very anti estrogen apparantly, I'm doing 40 days so six full training weeks and have bananas, Hawthorne berry and taurine included already into the supplements I'm taking in the run up, three weeks is when most people talk of epi kicking in fully hence the slightly longer than usual cycle than say SD or m1t, I'm sure I'll start feeling it way sooner but it gets to its best in the third week, I can't wait, ive been waiting for tomorrow since first starting to contemplate a cycle
> 
> As for liver support I'm using liv52 (I have extreme labs ocs aswell, but was saving that for second cycle aswell as more liv52) and for pct I have Nolva 20/20/20/20 (20mg tabs so can't really go lower) if I go with an epi stack or a solid m1t/sd cycle I'll prob run tudca for cycle support as it seems like it's probably one of the best of the liver supports, and got enough Nolva and clomid for a harder cycle too...


Can I ask why you're not using extreme labs PCT? I know that Epi is the mildest of all the PH's so is it recommended to take Nolva rather than a 'lab' produced PCT?


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## superdrol (Aug 9, 2012)

Faster recovery bud and I also wish to see how I react to Nolva for future reference... Not saying extreme pct wouldn't do it or owt, I'll also be utilising DAA natty test booster aswell as I have some kicking about, every little helps and all that...

also nolva worked out cheaper, win win


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## BigLou (Dec 25, 2014)

GDawg500 said:


> Can I ask why you're not using extreme labs PCT? I know that Epi is the mildest of all the PH's so is it recommended to take Nolva rather than a 'lab' produced PCT?


I get where you're coming from re: dumdum PCT.

I'm using the PCT from Extremelabs after an SD cycle and it is fine. Would like nolva on this PCT to be 100% sure, but everything is fine without. Personally I'd use the labs own PCT until on their more potent PH, where I would stack with nolva/clomid in a standard fashion.

End of the day, it depends on how susceptible one is to androgenic sides and that can only be found out by trial and error.


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## Dan94 (Dec 29, 2013)

Great log here mate with in depth reviews

If staying with Extreme Labs. @PHMG could probably help advise next cycle mate


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## BigLou (Dec 25, 2014)

Dan94 said:


> Great log here mate with in depth reviews
> 
> If staying with Extreme Labs. @PHMG could probably help advise next cycle mate


thanks pal! Must be the analyst in me coming out lol

Yeah am planning on staying with them for a long while tbf and like you say, asking PHMG about next cycle is on my to do list!

In other news, PCT is helping me retain gains. I've levelled at 77.4kg, loss of about 7/800grams lol. Almost not worth mentioning!! Glad I did it before starting my new job though. I do NOT want enhanced agression whilst working with slow computers!


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## Dan94 (Dec 29, 2013)

BigLou said:


> thanks pal! Must be the analyst in me coming out lol
> 
> Yeah am planning on staying with them for a long while tbf and like you say, asking PHMG about next cycle is on my to do list!
> 
> In other news, PCT is helping me retain gains. I've levelled at 77.4kg, loss of about 7/800grams lol. Almost not worth mentioning!! Glad I did it before starting my new job though. I do NOT want enhanced agression whilst working with slow computers!


Haha were quite lucky at work with decent computers, IT support sits just over from me too which is handy, although I'm pretty PC savvy

Im looking to run something in winter hopefully for bulk, probably Epi


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## BigLou (Dec 25, 2014)

Dan94 said:


> Haha were quite lucky at work with decent computers, IT support sits just over from me too which is handy, although I'm pretty PC savvy
> 
> Im looking to run something in winter hopefully for bulk, probably Epi


I'm lucky too that IT is a 30 second walk but when the servers crash, one is somewhat stuffed! Fortunately it's ma first day and so far citrix is behaving! I've had to rearrange training to the evenings now so will see how that goes!

Well @dumdum is doing an EPI journal atm but in conjunction with a fat loss from what I can tell and with 5x5 training. Either way I've recommended the EPI to a few because it will give dry gains and leave less work getting rid of water


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## Dan94 (Dec 29, 2013)

BigLou said:


> I'm lucky too that IT is a 30 second walk but when the servers crash, one is somewhat stuffed! Fortunately it's ma first day and so far citrix is behaving! I've had to rearrange training to the evenings now so will see how that goes!
> 
> Well @dumdum is doing an EPI journal atm but in conjunction with a fat loss from what I can tell and with 5x5 training. Either way I've recommended the EPI to a few because it will give dry gains and leave less work getting rid of water


I found I lost abit of strength training in the evening compared to mornings, more tired towards end of day etc

Yeah that's what I'm hoping. Mild on sides too


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## BigLou (Dec 25, 2014)

Dan94 said:


> I found I lost abit of strength training in the evening compared to mornings, more tired towards end of day etc
> 
> Yeah that's what I'm hoping. Mild on sides too


As its the first day in the evenings, I can't say for that yet but it does make sense, depends (for me anyway) on timing my nutrients properly.

Very mild on sides. The profile of the active ingredient is very good in favour of anabolic vs androgenic! Still would do a MT at least for a while though because of the 17a methylation, but thats me personally


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## Dan94 (Dec 29, 2013)

MT?


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## BigLou (Dec 25, 2014)

Dan94 said:


> MT?


Milk thistle sorry lol


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## Dan94 (Dec 29, 2013)

BigLou said:


> Milk thistle sorry lol


Got ya haha

U ran Epi before?


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## BigLou (Dec 25, 2014)

Dan94 said:


> Got ya haha
> 
> U ran Epi before?


 :thumb:

Not used Epi, I think one of the PH I used previously had an Epistane (epitiostanol) clone, I will check before saying yes or no lol


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## superdrol (Aug 9, 2012)

Well I absolutely hammered the weights today, it's not that the epi had kicked in or owt, but I have to work to build... See the log for more details, jeeze my back is pumped after squats (you'll see why if ta have a read!)


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## BigLou (Dec 25, 2014)

Dan94 said:


> Got ya haha
> 
> U ran Epi before?


I've checked and no I haven't.

If it is of use, I have used something with an androstanalone clone. Androstanalone and Epitiostanol are fairly similar in their formulae.(17b-Hydroxy-5a-androstan-3-one / 2a,3a-Epithio-5a-androstan-17b-ol). The main difference being the 2a and 3a-epithio aspects of the hormone. They both have the 5th androstan molecule alpha alkyalted, the 17th molecule is beta alkyalted and both are preported to deliver mild gains.

Make of that what you will, but when I used the aforementioned product, I wasn't doing it properly so didn't get much joy, although I did get some!


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## BigLou (Dec 25, 2014)

dumdum said:


> Well I absolutely hammered the weights today, it's not that the epi had kicked in or owt, but I have to work to build... See the log for more details, jeeze my back is pumped after squats (you'll see why if ta have a read!)


I shall check it out!


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## BigLou (Dec 25, 2014)

Weight has levelled now at 76.5kg. It fluctauates depending on water etc but thats kinda standard. Strength has stayed at on cycle levels. Pct is going well. Diet has improved as well. Got 2 weeks left then will be clear of ph til april/may time then a new journal will happen methinks


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## GDawg500 (Feb 2, 2015)

Other than PCT, are you taking any other supplements (i.e. test boosters, ZMA, vitamins, protein, etc)


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## BigLou (Dec 25, 2014)

GDawg500 said:


> Other than PCT, are you taking any other supplements (i.e. test boosters, ZMA, vitamins, protein, etc)


Apart from Optimum nutrition gold whey none. I had done a 4 week course of Gaspari creatine monohydrate in the last 2 weeks of my cycle to carry strength over into my pct, which I stopped last week. Did consider a test booster but money ran short!


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## Dan94 (Dec 29, 2013)

BigLou said:


> Apart from Optimum nutrition gold whey none. I had done a 4 week course of Gaspari creatine monohydrate in the last 2 weeks of my cycle to carry strength over into my pct, which I stopped last week. Did consider a test booster but money ran short!


Ever thought about using the sponsors on here instead? ON whey is extremely expensive in comparison mate


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## BigLou (Dec 25, 2014)

Dan94 said:


> Ever thought about using the sponsors on here instead? ON whey is extremely expensive in comparison mate


Rookie mistake from me

I didn't realise there was that side of the forums! Thanks for the heads up!


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## Dan94 (Dec 29, 2013)

BigLou said:


> Rookie mistake from me
> 
> I didn't realise there was that side of the forums! Thanks for the heads up!


No worries mate!

Personally I use @TheProteinWorks or @MyProtein Whey concentrate, just as good. I also used to use ON years ago until I realised the price!


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## BigLou (Dec 25, 2014)

Dan94 said:


> No worries mate!
> 
> Personally I use @TheProteinWorks or @MyProtein Whey concentrate, just as good. I also used to use ON years ago until I realised the price!


How do I use the sponsors thingy?

(Me and tech don't get on)


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## Dan94 (Dec 29, 2013)

BigLou said:


> How do I use the sponsors thingy?
> 
> (Me and tech don't get on)


Just visit one of their sites mate

Google the names


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