# Does Ketosis Even Matter?



## Raptor (Feb 16, 2010)

Ok so i've been following a keto diet recently and getting results but there are so many conflicting views, some people were saying things like "oh you need to have muuuch more fats or you'll not even be getting in to ketosis properly so i found myself pouring olive oil and adding cheese etc to meals thinking "it needs this to make it work" but then i thought "hang on, how the hell can adding 200 cals more fat make me lose fat? And someone who knows a lot about it was laughing over the same thing last night saying that it can't, and that the majority of weight loss on a 'Keto Diet' is simply because you are in a calorie deficit.

Whats your views on the above?

I've been recommended to add 50g carbs in around my workout, but just take the cals in to account - i'm starting this today.


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## Fat (Jan 2, 2010)

http://gymblog.co.uk/diet-and-nutrition/dave-palumbo-diet-bodybuilding-keto-diet/

This will probably answer all your questions.


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## barsnack (Mar 12, 2011)

yeah but it burns fat directly, doesnt burn carbs as energy first, so obviously your in calorie deficit, but burning fat as your primary energy source


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## Thunderstruck (Sep 20, 2010)

I beleive that the body will start using bodyfat more effectively if you are in keto but i think it is very overated, plus as you said you are basically cutting out a whole food type so the calorie deficit is there meaning you will lose weight.

Look at all the guys n girls who have got brilliant results without even hearing the word keto or ketosis. They just eat cleaner and cut out the **** and they create the deficit. Exactly what im aiming to do from now til xmas.


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## Raptor (Feb 16, 2010)

Thunderstruck said:


> I beleive that the body will start using bodyfat more effectively if you are in keto but i think it is very overated, plus as you said you are basically cutting out a whole food type so the calorie deficit is there meaning you will lose weight.
> 
> *
> Look at all the guys n girls who have got brilliant results without even hearing the word keto or ketosis. They just eat cleaner and cut out the **** and they create the deficit.* Exactly what im aiming to do from now til xmas.


Exactly it has me wondering if 'Ketosis' is all its cracked up to be tbh


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## Ironclad (Jun 23, 2009)

If it was a calorie deficit diet you may as well use any diet for your slimming war. Keto isn't designed as a calorie deficient diet, the high-fat element (i believe) came about from testing the dietry control of epilepsy - the higher the fat / the greater the control. Bodybuilders like it because you can eat in a calorie surplus if you like and still get the intended results because of the way the body metabolises fats when in ketosis.

You want higher fats to fuel your physical lifestyle, gain those extra cals to maintain your 3 or 4,000 cal min. You'd think you should be pouring in protein shakes not oil for those extra cals, but it don't work that way.

I suspect it IS all it's cracked up to be for these reasons; no bloat, faster fat-loss, no hunger, no calorie deficit, simpler dieting and.. bacon bacon bacon..

It's counter-intuitive but it's right.


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## Ash78 (Jul 11, 2011)

Think it's mostly calories in vs out at the end of the day. You add fat because you don't want to create an excessive caloric deficit, same as with a "regular" diet. Keto is supposedly more protein-sparing, but I'm not sure it makes much difference to the average trainer.

Personally, I like using Keto when I'm cutting, purely because I know what I'm like with carbs. The more I eat, the more I want. Keto curbs my appetite and takes away any temptation because I know I "can't" eat any. More psycological than anything else I guess.


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## Raptor (Feb 16, 2010)

Ash78 said:


> Think it's mostly calories in vs out at the end of the day. You add fat because you don't want to create an excessive caloric deficit, same as with a "regular" diet. Keto is supposedly more protein-sparing, but I'm not sure it makes much difference to the average trainer.
> 
> *
> Personally, I like using Keto when I'm cutting, purely because I know what I'm like with carbs.* The more I eat, the more I want. Keto curbs my appetite and takes away any temptation because I know I "can't" eat any. More psycological than anything else I guess.


I'm hoping that having just 25g pre and 25g post workout won't fcuk me up, i'll not be having any fats in these times


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## Raptor (Feb 16, 2010)

Ironclad said:


> and.. bacon bacon bacon...


Lol gotta love bacon! I use the streaky spanish stuff


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## flinty90 (Jul 1, 2010)

No matter what diet you follow mate and i mean ANY, it always comes down to the same thing calorie defecit.... FACT


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## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

Ironclad said:


> If it was a calorie deficit diet you may as well use any diet for your slimming war. Keto isn't designed as a calorie deficient diet, the high-fat element (i believe) came about from testing the dietry control of epilepsy - the higher the fat / the greater the control. *Bodybuilders like it because you can eat in a calorie **surplus** if you like and still get the intended results because of the way the body metabolises fats when in ketosis.*
> 
> You want higher fats to fuel your physical lifestyle, gain those extra cals to maintain your 3 or 4,000 cal min.
> 
> ...


The highlighted sentence is rubbish, absolute rubbish.

You can't lose fat without an energy deficit, regardless of diet type, fact. Eat 5000cal of fat and protein and watch yourself get fat, difficult as it may be to eat this amount of both. Obviously AAS change things, but that's the basic premise of any successful diet.

You do not lose fat faster on keto, weight yes, but this is the initial rapid drop in glycogen and associated water weight. This contrast in rapid intial water weight loss will balance out verses a standard diet over the long run, but it also explains the popularity of keto to the uninformed - the rapid initial weight loss is motivating, see the success of Atkins, Southbeach, Dukan etc for reference.

Also, ketogenesis is quite a catabolic state to be in for the natural trainee, hence the popularity of TKD and carb cycling etc.


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## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

Ash78 said:


> Think it's mostly calories in vs out at the end of the day. You add fat because you don't want to create an excessive caloric deficit, same as with a "regular" diet. Keto is supposedly more protein-sparing, but I'm not sure it makes much difference to the average trainer.
> 
> *Personally, I like using Keto when I'm cutting, purely because I know what I'm like with carbs. The more I eat, the more I want. Keto curbs my appetite and takes away any temptation because I know I "can't" eat any. More psycological than anything else I guess. *


Therein lies the advantage of keto for most.


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## Fat (Jan 2, 2010)

Remember calorie defecit isn't all about what you put in your mouth but the amount of calories you burn too.


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## Raptor (Feb 16, 2010)

bayman said:


> The highlighted sentence is rubbish, absolute rubbish.
> 
> You can't lose fat without an energy deficit, regardless of diet type, fact. Eat 5000cal of fat and protein and watch yourself get fat, difficult as it may be to eat this amount of both. Obviously AAS change things, but that's the basic premise of any successful diet.
> 
> ...


Good post this is was what i was talking about to my mate last night, low carbs can have benefits and from today i'll be adding some and removing the fat out of these meals, it will just be with my pre workout / post workout meals, which today will be 50g Boditronics mass attack and 50g post, works out 25g carbs in 50g so will be ideal


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## xkrdan (Aug 1, 2011)

mate i have done moderate fats all summer and i would say iv dropped 10% bodyfat easy! i dont like the idea of having that much fat there is no set rule to how much fats you have in a keto the moderate version of the keto diet is dave palumbo's he swears by it look up one of the threads i made he explained in the video why moderate fats and high protein etc...


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## xkrdan (Aug 1, 2011)

i also add i cheat 2-3 times on a sunday to refill glycogen stores and i havent lost much strength or muscle my arms are the same size if not 1/4 inch bigger than when i started... i would scrap the 50g carbs the less carbs the better IMO


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## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

Ketogenic Diets have no metabolic advantage over non ketogenic



> With that said, this study adds to the data set suggesting that, if calories and protein intake are identical, there is little to no metabolic advantage (in terms of fat or weight loss) to full blown ketogenic diets. They work at least as well, mind you, but not better.





> For many individuals, the biggest 'metabolic advantage' of very-low carbohdyrate diets may be one of food/calorie control. Many people seem to show what might be popularly called 'carbohydrate addiction' (a term that is massively debated among obesity researchers) where eating even small amounts of carbs makes them want to eat more. In that case, a full blown removal of carbohydrates from the diet may be the only realistic way to limit caloric intake.


End of thread.


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## xkrdan (Aug 1, 2011)

this explained it all to me and why i prefer to have a gram of protein per lb of weight...


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## Raptor (Feb 16, 2010)

xkrdan said:


> this explained it all to me and why *i prefer to have a gram of protein per lb of weight*...


You need that anyway buddy!


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## xkrdan (Aug 1, 2011)

not on a normal keto you dont mate thats my point! i meant to add this in earlier bud im trying to find the link i had ill come back when i find it


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## Raptor (Feb 16, 2010)

xkrdan said:
 

> not on a normal keto you dont mate thats my point! i meant to add this in earlier bud im trying to find the link i had ill come back when i find it


I thought you prefer to have 1g protein per lb instead of doing a keto diet, 1g per lb isn't much


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

bayman said:


> Ketogenic Diets have no metabolic advantage over non ketogenic
> 
> End of thread.


That's the study I was gonna link.

The idea that ketosis increases fat loss over a calorie matched non ketogenic diet is a total and utter broscience myth - and there's not a single well conducted scientific study with tight controls on energy intake and expenditure that has ever demonstrated ketosis to be superior.


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## Fat (Jan 2, 2010)

So keto diet doesn't reduce bf?


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

Fat said:


> So keto diet doesn't reduce bf?


It will if it provides a calorie deficit, but in a calorie excess it will cause you to gain bodyfat.

I did a bulking keto experiment about three years ago - stayed on a standard keto diet (no targetted carbs or refeeds) for eleven weeks with a an approximate 400kcal excess per day... over eleven weeks I gained around 5.5lbs of fat mass and about 2lb lean mass. Wasn't particularly impressed with the results to be honest.


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## xkrdan (Aug 1, 2011)

Raptor said:


> I thought you prefer to have 1g protein per lb instead of doing a keto diet, 1g per lb isn't much


yer i do thats why i do dave palumbos version high protein, moderate fat and low carbs where a normal keto is moderate protein, high fat and low carb...


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## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

Where did anybody say that? We just said that keto is no better than a standard diet with carbs included.


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## Fat (Jan 2, 2010)

I see, so dave palumbos science behind it is all bs?


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## xkrdan (Aug 1, 2011)

Fat said:


> I see, so dave palumbos science behind it is all bs?


is that at me?


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## Fat (Jan 2, 2010)

xkrdan said:


> is that at me?


No.


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

Fat said:


> I see, so dave palumbos science behind it is all bs?


I don't know what science he uses, but most people who promote ketogenic diets as being advantageous quote scientific theory rather than established scientific fact replicated and proven by solid data - they make a good argument, but not one with any real proof supporting it coming from unbaised clinical studies or real life examples.

Am not arguing ketogenic diets don't work, simply that ketosis is not what makes them work - it's the calorie restriction.


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## Dananaman (Jan 2, 2013)

Go on the disco diet mate. Bag of e's and loads of electro music.


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## xkrdan (Aug 1, 2011)

yer but there calories from protein so your going to use them and burn them a lot quicker plus your still in a calorie defecit with that diet which weight is it for?


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## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

xkrdan said:


> yer but there calories from protein so your going to use them and burn them a lot quicker plus your still in a calorie defecit with that diet which weight is it for?


I don't quite get your point?


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## Fat (Jan 2, 2010)

Dave recommends this to lose bf:

Meal #1: 6 whole (Omega-3) eggs.

Meal #2: 8oz chicken with ½ cup raw almonds.

Meal #3: 50g whey protein with 2 tablespoons all natural peanut butter.

Meal #4: 8oz salmon with 1 cup asparagus with 1 tablespoon macadamia nut oil.

Meal #5: same as meal #3.

Meal #6: 6 whole (Omega-3) eggs.

Most of that stuff is calorie dense so how can that be a calorie defecit


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## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

Fat said:


> Dave recommends this to lose bf:
> 
> Meal #1: 6 whole (Omega-3) eggs.
> 
> ...


What's your point? Dave recommends it? If I took the recommendations of every wannabe online bodybuilding / diet guru in theory I should be 30st and 5%, but we all know the reality of the situation.


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## Fat (Jan 2, 2010)

bayman said:


> What's your point? Dave recommends it? If I took the recommendations of every wannabe online bodybuilding / diet guru in theory I should be 30st and 5%, but we all know the reality of the situation.


Obviously not but for someone who is obese and wanting to cut down to bulk...


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## Raptor (Feb 16, 2010)

Fat said:


> Dave recommends this to lose bf:
> 
> Meal #1: 6 whole (Omega-3) eggs.
> 
> ...


It may seem like thats calorie dense but the above is about 2400 cals and remember this is designed with 'bodybuilding'

In mind and not just the average 14 stone dude, if your goal is solely to lose weight then you could strip the above further mate


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

Fat said:


> Dave recommends this to lose bf:
> 
> Meal #1: 6 whole (Omega-3) eggs.
> 
> ...


True is calorie dense, but the only way eating that would cause you to lose weight is if the total amount of energy it provides is less than the combined amount of energy you expend and need to maintain the same levels of stored energy.

In respect of ketosis, people often don't recognise what ketosis actually is - a reduction in the efficiency of the body to burn fat by the normal route, not an increase in efficiency.

The main set of reactions whereby energy is liberated from food is the kerbs cycle or citric acid cycle. This is a multistep physiological process invloving many enzymes and many stages of conversion between what start out as molecules of fat or glucose and eventually end up as energy producing ATP. Throughout this process many metabolites are created that are important to keep the cycle going, and some of these metabolites get used up, and some are created and recycled, but if ever these metabolites are missing then the efficiency of the krebs cycle at burning fat is reduced and the fat burning process slowed.

In normal non ketogenic states the krebs cycle works very efficiently because the cycle needs two metabolites, oxaloacetate and pyruvate, which come primarily from breaking down carbohydrates in order to fully breakdown bodyfat. These cannot be recycled so are needed in constant supply. When carbs are restricted to the point of not providing enough oxaloacetate and pyruvate, the krebs cycle can find a little pyruvate from breakign down muscle proteins, but is lacking overall, and the cycle cannot fully burn up the whole of a fatty acid molecule so it leaves behind a ketone - and this is what ketosis is, a physiological state whereby the body is no longer able to fully burn the entirety of fatty acid molecules for energy.

The theory which suggests this ketogenic state is beneficial to fat burning overall works around two ideas: firstly the idea that by being unable to get as many calories from fat as normal, that the body will therefore have to use more fatty acid molecules to get the same energy supply so more bodyfat will be burned overall.

What this argument fails to recognise is that while some ketone bodys are excreted and not used for energy (acetone), the vast majority actually are still used for energy anyway because the body has enzymes to convert them to metabolites usable by the krebs cycle... the 'unusable energy' aspect of the ketogenic diet theory is flawwed. It also fails to consider that the small amount of calories lost from acetone excretion tend to come from dietary fat rather than broken down bodyfat (so don't contribute to fat loss) and the energy shortfall is made up by catabolising extra muscle protein for energy (so again doesn't contribute to extra fat loss).

The second idea is that the reduced levels of insulin and increased levels of glucagon on very low carb and ketogenic diets create a hormonal environment that doesn't allow for much fat storage. This is a classic (and massive) error in identification of how fat is stored because it assumes insulin is the main fat storage horomone - it isn't at all. Insulin is the main hormone which transports glucose into cells, but not fats - fats are primarily caused to enter fat cells by a hormone called ASP (Acylation Stimulating Protein), and ketogenesis does nothing at all to limt this hormone, nor to limit the ability of the body to store excess dietary fat as bodyfat.

The main points of potential advantage for some people with ketogenic diets are these:

1) some people experience reduced appetite and greater fullness on ketogenic diets so feel inclined to eat less

2) the high level of organisation the diet requires usually forces people to adhere to overall calorie control far more rigidly than in diets which allow a wider range of foods to be eaten

3) anyone with diabetic symptoms and poor blood sugar and insulin control will usually benefit their ability to lose fat from a decrease in simple carbohydrate intake, and (fairly obviously) nothing does this better than a diet which heavily restricts overall carb intake such as a very low carb or keto diet.

To sum up, the fat loss on a ketogenic diet is driven by exactly the same factor as non ketogenic diets - total calorie intake relative to calorie expenditure... the only difference is that certain stages of the metabolism of fat and energy liberation are performed by a different set of physiological processes to non ketogenic diets.


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## Breda (May 2, 2011)

Someone knows what he's talkin about.... Kin el that makes no sense to me what so ever but I wish it did lol


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## Raptor (Feb 16, 2010)

Fantastic post Dltv74! Just exactly what i was looking for, the one question that i have is that is it still best to be careful with carbs and fats in the same meal? For example, pre workout i'll be having 25g carbs and same post workout, at these times would it be best to avoid fats?


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## Malibu (May 13, 2010)

since people are say aslong as its a deficient I'll lose weight?

so new diet would be 200g pro/250g choc/crisps/cakes, I should lose body fat eh?


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## Raptor (Feb 16, 2010)

Malibu said:


> since people are say aslong as its a deficient I'll lose weight?
> 
> so new diet would be 200g pro/250g choc/crisps/cakes, I should lose body fat eh?


Yeah if you ate 1500 cals of donuts each day, you'd lose fat fast, but it wouldn't be optimal to hold muscle due to lack of protein


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## Malibu (May 13, 2010)

Raptor said:


> Yeah if you ate 1500 cals of donuts each day, you'd lose fat fast, but it wouldn't be optimal to hold muscle due to lack of protein


notice the 200g pro


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## Raptor (Feb 16, 2010)

Malibu said:


> notice the 200g pro


Oh lol i'm 1/2 asleep, personally i'd gain massively on 250g carbs as i'm way too insulin sensitive

In fact i gained 5kg on my last cut :3


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

Malibu said:


> since people are say aslong as its a deficient I'll lose weight?
> 
> so new diet would be 200g pro/250g choc/crisps/cakes, I should lose body fat eh?


Absolutely would lose body fat ... check this link out: http://health.usnews.com/health-news/diet-fitness/diet/articles/2010/09/29/junk-food-the-new-weight-loss-diet

Of course junk food isn't optimally healthy, so a junk food cutting diet isn't ideal, but people forget even with junk food and its health issues that problems come from the repeated quantity consumed combined with the total caloric load, and not so much an inherent issue with the foods themselves... even a food which is 'healthy' will contribute to ill health if continually overeaten, just as an 'unhealthy' food can be part of a very healthy diet if quantity is controlled.


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## Fatstuff (Mar 2, 2010)

Dtlv74 said:


> Absolutely would lose body fat ... check this link out: http://health.usnews.com/health-news/diet-fitness/diet/articles/2010/09/29/junk-food-the-new-weight-loss-diet
> 
> Of course junk food isn't optimally healthy, so a junk food cutting diet isn't ideal, but people forget even with junk food and its health issues that problems come from the repeated quantity consumed combined with the total caloric load, and not so much an inherent issue with the foods themselves... even a food which is 'healthy' will contribute to ill health if continually overeaten, just as an 'unhealthy' food can be part of a very healthy diet if quantity is controlled.


This ^^^

you can have poor diet and lose weight it's just not very healthy for a start. Not very sating so your more likely to derail your diet And usually high in calories so you can't eat as much food, quantity wise


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## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

fatstuff said:


> This ^^^
> 
> you can have poor diet and lose weight it's just not very healthy for a start. Not very sating so your more likely to derail your diet And usually high in calories so you can't eat as much food, quantity wise


Summed up nicely.


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