# Why bulk and cut ?



## Milky (Nov 30, 2008)

I read this a lot on here...

" l want to bulk for *** months then start a cut for my holiday " blah blah blah..

Can someone explain this to me ?

All l want is to gain decent muscle, not get fatter so l try to eat accordingly.

Surely if you give yourself say 9 months to acheive your goals..... you " bulk " for 5 months then you " cut " for 4 months... so why not just up your clean calories throughout the 9 months ?

I apologise if this seems retarded but l have never actually got the bulking thing... maybe because l am already fat.


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## chambers9k (May 2, 2011)

Milky said:


> I read this a lot on here...
> 
> " l want to bulk for *** months then start a cut for my holiday " blah blah blah..
> 
> ...


Was that aimed at me!? Milky that offer for me to beat you up still stands you know!


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## Milky (Nov 30, 2008)

chambers9k said:


> Was that aimed at me!? Milky that offer for me to beat you up still stands you know!


No mate not for a second....

There are a lot of bulking questions on here..

Bottom line for me is if l eat right and train hard l gain muscle, l dont want to get fatter under any circumstances.

Is there any benefit to gaining fat ?


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## MRSTRONG (Apr 18, 2009)

not aimed at chambers , people want to look good for summer now this year and are to impatient to acheive a god like body in the next summer 1 year of a clean bulk will see some great gains but folk cant be assed to do it for a year .


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## Milky (Nov 30, 2008)

ewen said:


> not aimed at chambers , people want to look good for summer now this year and are to impatient to acheive a god like body in the next summer 1 year of a clean bulk will see some great gains but folk cant be assed to do it for a year .


Good point, so basically its an excuse to be less strict diet wise..


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## chambers9k (May 2, 2011)

Yeah i think maybe it is a time and patience thing. Sometimes it's nice to mix it up too


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## Muscle (Oct 10, 2010)

I think its some sort of reward thing.. give people a excuse to pig out and say its okay i'm bulking.


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## Dux (Nov 29, 2011)

You're a wise man, Milkster.

All I'm trying to do too is get bigger, by working my balls off 5 days a week and eating cleanly, and very soon I'll be starting a cycle too.

I'm gonna try and find a sweet spot that allows me to grow, as leanly (is that even a word?) as possible, without putting on any fat. The way I see it is, if I find the correct balance of diet, work hard and introduce Test & Tren there's no reason why I should put on anything more than a minimal amount of fat. I worked too damn hard this year to lose 4-5 stone of fat to put it back on by unnecessarily overrating.


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## MRSTRONG (Apr 18, 2009)

Milky said:


> Good point, so basically its an excuse to be less strict diet wise..


yeah and all the bulk then cut info on all bb sites are to blame too .

guys are hell bent on killer cuts that they forget the basic thing first ... clean bulking over a long period .

however doing a bulk where you gain a little fat is good as the body will grow quicker in terms of overall mass and the joints and supporting muscles can cope better with a bigger frame .

plus building muscle add in cardio and the bit of fat gain is burnt off .


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## Muscle (Oct 10, 2010)

Don't strong man do this approach without the cut?


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## chambers9k (May 2, 2011)

Also it could be difficult finding the balance to grow lean. Wheres bulking and cutting and least you have room for error. I'm not talking about pigging out i'm jus on about finding how your body reacts to the situation


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## Milky (Nov 30, 2008)

Weeman made a really good point on a thread yesterday, He basically asked if you train to look like a bb'er then why wouldnt you want to look like a bb'er 12 months of the yr ?

To me this is bang on the money, l dont want to look like some one who " might " train or " did " train, l want to look like some one who DOES train, no matter what time of the yr it is.


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## MRSTRONG (Apr 18, 2009)

Muscle said:


> Don't strong man do this approach without the cut?


to a degree although fat is needed when truck pulling as more bodyweight is better in general .


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## Dux (Nov 29, 2011)

chambers9k said:


> Also it could be difficult finding the balance to grow lean. Wheres bulking and cutting and least you have room for error. I'm not talking about pigging out i'm jus on about finding how your body reacts to the situation


If you constantly access how your body is changing, and adjust your diet accordingly, that will be a damn sight easier than having to shift a stone of fat you put on because of eating too much for 3 months.


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## chambers9k (May 2, 2011)

Milky said:


> Weeman made a really good point on a thread yesterday, He basically asked if you train to look like a bb'er then why wouldnt you want to look like a bb'er 12 months of the yr ?
> 
> To me this is bang on the money, l dont want to look like some one who " might " train or " did " train, l want to look like some one who DOES train, no matter what time of the yr it is.


But milkmeister you already said you were fat? So you must have been a naughty boy yourself and not lived by the theory?


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## Milky (Nov 30, 2008)

chambers9k said:


> But milkmeister you already said you were fat? So you must have been a naughty boy yourself and not lived by the theory?


mate my diet is rubbish but trust me l never deliberatly put fat on.

I also have an under active thyroid which doesnt help.

Since l started training my body has changed massively, hell its changed massively in the last month on 4 shots of tren and sus, so l know what to do to make big changes and fast.


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## Bamse (Feb 5, 2011)

Milky said:


> Good point, so basically its an excuse to be less strict diet wise..


Yes. The bottom line is, I suppose, that a bulk should always be clean - otherwise it's not a bulk, it's just eating a lot of food.


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## chambers9k (May 2, 2011)

Milky said:


> mate my diet is rubbish but trust me l never deliberatly put fat on.
> 
> I also have an under active thyroid which doesnt help.
> 
> Since l started training my body has changed massively, hell its changed massively in the last month on 4 shots of tren and sus, so l know what to do to make big changes and fast.


Well that shut me up ;p


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## Muscle (Oct 10, 2010)

I think after a long boring strict cut people want to hear that you're allowed to eat excess calories lol.

Me personally I enjoy having a cheat meal once per week and thats enough!


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## Josh1436114527 (Apr 3, 2007)

There do seem to be a lot of threads that pop up and say i have 5 months so guna do a little bulk and then cut,which as you have said milky will be a complete waste of time. The bulking and cutting situation as i see it should be done over years , achieve as much mass as you can the longer the better imo then strip down to see what has been achieved. People need to see this game as long term.


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## sunn (Apr 11, 2011)

The word dirty bulk to me just means an excuse to eat crap and someone who has the willpower of a nat!

When lean bulking with a clean diet if you are eating to gain muslce chances are you will gain a little fat over time and I guess it is upto that person as to when they feel uncomfortable and want to cut.

I am going to cut soon as I feel I am now at this stage and want to see what I am working with and I have also read that higher bodyfat leads to high estrogen levels meaning you will gain more fat than muscle whilst bulking compared with if your leaner.

Having said all this I am no expert that is just my understanding from what I have read!


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## Bamse (Feb 5, 2011)

ewen said:


> however doing a bulk where you gain a little fat is good as the body will grow quicker in terms of overall mass and the joints and supporting muscles can cope better with a bigger frame .


That, and putting on muscle without gaining any fat at all would probably require you to live in a lab. I can't see how hitting the exact sweet spot would be possible other than in theory. You'll always either take in a bit too few calories (ie not building to full capacity or however you want to phrase it) or too many (putting on a bit of fat).


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## Muscle (Oct 10, 2010)

I also forgot to mention this but 'hard gainers' can eat ANYTHING in sight and not put on fat. People need to relise we are not all gifted with fast metabolism.


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## Milky (Nov 30, 2008)

Bamse said:


> That, and putting on muscle without gaining any fat at all would probably require you to live in a lab. I can't see how hitting the exact sweet spot would be possible other than in theory. You'll always either take in a bit too few calories (ie not building to full capacity or however you want to phrase it) or too many (putting on a bit of fat).


Its a balancing act mate, you have to go off the mirror.


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## Milky (Nov 30, 2008)

Muscle said:


> I also forgot to mention this but 'hard gainers' can eat ANYTHING in sight and not put on fat. People need to relise we are not all gifted with fast metabolism.


I prefer to call them " bastards "


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## onthebuild (Sep 3, 2011)

this may sound stupid but fatter people do tend to be alot stronger. Bear with me here, but if you look at olympic weightlifters and worlds strongest men their not at all ripped. Compared to ultra toned sprinters or bodybuilders who yeah can probably handle heavy weights but wouldnt be breaking records or anything. So maybe bulking works by increasing strength thus lifting heavier weights and in turn building more muscle? This is all assumption of course, I have no science to back this up! So commence the **** taking if you wish!


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## Milky (Nov 30, 2008)

onthebuild said:


> this may sound stupid but fatter people do tend to be alot stronger. Bear with me here, but if you look at olympic weightlifters and worlds strongest men their not at all ripped. Compared to ultra toned sprinters or bodybuilders who yeah can probably handle heavy weights but wouldnt be breaking records or anything. So maybe bulking works by increasing strength thus lifting heavier weights and in turn building more muscle? This is all assumption of course, I have no science to back this up! So commence the **** taking if you wish!


You may have some fair points there mate..

Pudz sort of throws a spanner in the works there tho to an extent.


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## jaycue2u (Jul 23, 2011)

Milky said:


> Pudz sort of throws a spanner in the works there tho to an extent.


There will always be exceptions


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## Bamse (Feb 5, 2011)

onthebuild said:


> this may sound stupid but fatter people do tend to be alot stronger.


I don't necessarily think fat makes you strong. The correlation is spurious: taking in excess calories makes you both strong and, eventually, fat.


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## John Wood (Apr 13, 2008)

I never see the point in putting 2-3 st on then having to work ya nuts off too get rid.....if you've got the condition then work for quailty size with a good clean diet...and if ya want to look big in clothes.....wear some extra jumpers


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## Dux (Nov 29, 2011)

But surely the massive fooking bellies some of them have contribute zero to their lifting ability?


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## xpower (Jul 28, 2009)

Cuz I'm a greedy cnut


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## Bamse (Feb 5, 2011)

Dux said:


> But surely the massive fooking bellies some of them have contribute zero to their lifting ability?


I wonder if it's not more a question of piling on as much muscle as possible and not worrying about excess fat. Neither powerlifters nor strongmen get points for symmetry. Though as with sumo wrestlers perhaps there is an advantage in having a low centre of gravity?


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## Milky (Nov 30, 2008)

John Wood said:


> I never see the point in putting 2-3 st on then having to work ya nuts off too get rid.....if you've got the condition then work for quailty size with a good clean diet...and if ya want to look big in clothes.....wear some extra jumpers


Good post John.


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## Fat (Jan 2, 2010)

How do you figure out your macros? You guys know what I want to achieve :lol:

Lets say i'm losing 2 pounds per week with 2300 calories how do I gain muscle without putting a lot of fat?

Do I increase the calories slowly and if i'm gaining to much fat reduce carbs?


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## Dirk McQuickly (Dec 29, 2010)

Even and milky - what do you reckon calories wise? The Accepted wisdom is about 500 pd above maintenance to gain. Do you both advocate sticking to this, just doing it as cleanly as poss, and keeping it up right across the year?


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## Dux (Nov 29, 2011)

Bamse said:


> I wonder if it's not more a question of piling on as much muscle as possible and not worrying about excess fat. Neither powerlifters nor strongmen get points for symmetry. Though as with sumo wrestlers perhaps there is an advantage in having a low centre of gravity?


It has to be something like this. You can't criticise them, because they're at the top of their game, so whatever they're doing, it's working.


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## Muscle (Oct 10, 2010)

Another alternative is supplement T3 to raise your metabolism and you can 'bulk'


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## Milky (Nov 30, 2008)

chilli said:


> Even and milky - what do you reckon calories wise? The Accepted wisdom is about 500 pd above maintenance to gain. Do you both advocate sticking to this, just doing it as cleanly as poss, and keeping it up right across the year?


Mate l have never counted a calorie in my life, l dont have the brain power..

I go purely off the mirror, when on gear l up my protein intake and lower my carbs in the evenings. When not l eat slightly less and more balalced thro the day.

If l was pushed on an answer l would agree with the 500 over maintenance as a starting block but l would also add that in given time this would not be enough as your body would adjust accordingly to burn these extra calories.


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## Robbie (Dec 31, 2007)

http://www.thespartanwarrior.com/post/6114152789/iifym


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## John Wood (Apr 13, 2008)

onthebuild said:


> this may sound stupid but fatter people do tend to be alot stronger. Bear with me here, but if you look at olympic weightlifters and worlds strongest men their not at all ripped. Compared to ultra toned sprinters or bodybuilders who yeah can probably handle heavy weights but wouldnt be breaking records or anything. So maybe bulking works by increasing strength thus lifting heavier weights and in turn building more muscle? This is all assumption of course, I have no science to back this up! So commence the **** taking if you wish!


I at one time put on just over 2st above my comp weight and proved nothing.. only that I was out of breath whilst training and just walking around also feeling uncomfortable and no stronger at all if anything slightly less.... so the result was to stay within 10lbs of comp weight and too gain quality muscle


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## Bamse (Feb 5, 2011)

Fat said:


> How do you figure out your macros? You guys know what I want to achieve :lol:


Yes - but you don't need macros for that; you just need to accept who you are and proudly step out of the closet.


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## Milky (Nov 30, 2008)

Muscle said:


> Another alternative is supplement T3 to raise your metabolism and you can 'bulk'


Is T3 thyroxin ?

Let me check..


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## xpower (Jul 28, 2009)

Liothyronine sodium is the L-isomer of triiodothyronine (T3) (quick google lol)

T4 (Levothyroxine)


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## Muscle (Oct 10, 2010)

Milky said:


> Mate l have never counted a calorie in my life, l dont have the brain power..
> 
> I go purely off the mirror, when on gear l up my protein intake and lower my carbs in the evenings. When not l eat slightly less and more balalced thro the day.
> 
> If l was pushed on an answer l would agree with the 500 over maintenance as a starting block but l would also add that in given time this would not be enough as your body would adjust accordingly to burn these extra calories.


I've never used gear so I don't know but for people who are natural I don't see how you can monitor progress from a mirror on a small time frame. Most of the time you wil not see a difference unless you take measurements(bf, weight, size)


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## Milky (Nov 30, 2008)

Muscle said:


> I've never used gear so I don't know but for people who are natural I don't see how you can monitor progress from a mirror on a small time frame. Most of the time you wil not see a difference unless you take measurements(bf, weight, size)


True, l would imagine it would be difficult but then maybe go off clothes etc...


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## mrh (Jul 9, 2011)

Im a slow gainer cause i have a fast metabolism but can still bulk just eat lots of clean foods it will just be a slower bulk gaining muscle only, but who cares you dont want the fat anyway do you?

Ive never understood the theory of just eating everything either just to have to get rid of the fat and keep the muscle you could of gained on its own :/

1 cheat meal a week for me maybe 2 depending on my cardio that week

infact about to have my southern fried chicken in a minute


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## onthebuild (Sep 3, 2011)

Milky said:


> You may have some fair points there mate..
> 
> Pudz sort of throws a spanner in the works there tho to an extent.


haha this is true, guess hes a freak of nature... or clen


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## onthebuild (Sep 3, 2011)

Dux said:


> But surely the massive fooking bellies some of them have contribute zero to their lifting ability?


maybe they have extra strong backs/legs to carry that massive belly around all day


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## mikep81 (Oct 8, 2010)

I think the problem is that there are a lot of people who don't realise how different everybody is and how each and every person will need a different approach. A lot of people must look at pro bodybuilders in the off season and say, well Ronnie Coleman can get massively fat and then cuts it, so that's what I must do. Too many times people read something and take it exactly how it's written without considering other factors. A mate of mine has just got into lifting and never used to have any protein for breakfast. I managed to convince him to get some protein powder. He was really insistent on not changing his diet too much so wasn't interested in adding protein into his breakfast. I managed to convince him to have his oats and toast, but add a protein shake as well and all was fine until he read in a magazine that post workout is the best time to take a shake so he stopped having his shake with breakfast and moved it to post workout, but this then meant he was getting little to no protein in the morning. The problem was that this article assumed that the person reading it would have already been taking in the right macro's which my mate wasn't, hence the shake for breakfast. He read that article and took it exactly how it was written, he's now a little more educated but this is a common problem I think. It's the same as all these training articles written in magazines, what works for one, doesn't work for another.

I also agree that bulking to some just seems to be an excuse to eat what they want.


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## Muscle (Oct 10, 2010)

I have been reading up on carb cycling and I think it could be effective. Moderate amount of carbs on Weight Days and Low on Cardio/Rest days.


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## Kennyken (Jun 20, 2011)

bump to read later


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## Milky (Nov 30, 2008)

Muscle said:


> I have been reading up on carb cycling and I think it could be effective. Moderate amount of carbs on Weight Days and Low on Cardio/Rest days.


This l would be willing to try.

The only problem is l have no structure in my training because of work commitmnets.


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## Bamse (Feb 5, 2011)

Milky said:


> True, l would imagine it would be difficult but then maybe go off clothes etc...


And a combination of scales, calipers, tape measure, etc. But still, changes occur slowly so it is harder to tell what's causing what and to adjust. Which is another reason why recreational and natural trainers shouldn't blindly try and copy what the pros or that big guy down at the gym are doing.


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## mikep81 (Oct 8, 2010)

Muscle said:


> I have been reading up on carb cycling and I think it could be effective. Moderate amount of carbs on Weight Days and Low on Cardio/Rest days.


I have carb cycled and although it was at times a bit of a ball ache trying to sort it out if my training days changed, it was effective. The is a good article written on it in the diet section by Pscarb (I think).


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## Muscle (Oct 10, 2010)

mikep81 said:


> I have carb cycled and although it was at times a bit of a ball ache trying to sort it out if my training days changed, it was effective. The is a good article written on it in the diet section by Pscarb (I think).


Here it is for anyone wanting to read:

http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/losing-weight/13379-timed-carbs.html


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## r_richson (Dec 22, 2007)

doesnt take much to figure the pros all get fatter in there off season. its a better enviroment to sustain and gain new muscle. although somewhere down the line every average gym rat thinks they are lee priest and get fat as fcuk making life harder for yourself and in the long run have to diet for longer and possibly compromising muscle. if you cant keep it clean on a bulk how on earth are you gonna stick to a strickt diet for 20 weeks.


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## Milky (Nov 30, 2008)

r_richson said:


> doesnt take much to figure the pros all get fatter in there off season. its a better enviroment to sustain and gain new muscle. although somewhere down the line every average gym rat thinks they are lee priest and get fat as fcuk making life harder for yourself and in the long run have to diet for longer and possibly compromising muscle. if you cant keep it clean on a bulk how on earth are you gonna stick to a strickt diet for 20 weeks.


THIS

Is a very valid point actually.

This game is all about DISCIPLINE, in every way... Sooooooo if you cant control your food intake when you are " bulking " then your sure as hell gonna struggle when " cutting ".


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## MRSTRONG (Apr 18, 2009)

onthebuild said:


> this may sound stupid but fatter people do tend to be alot stronger. Bear with me here, but if you look at olympic weightlifters and worlds strongest men their not at all ripped. Compared to ultra toned sprinters or bodybuilders who yeah can probably handle heavy weights but wouldnt be breaking records or anything. So maybe bulking works by increasing strength thus lifting heavier weights and in turn building more muscle? This is all assumption of course, I have no science to back this up! So commence the **** taking if you wish!


its muscle fibers that lift weight not fat .

powerlifters/strongmen are just lazy bodybuilders not bothered about being 8%bf or less , they/we train for strength and theres nothing better than kfc chocolate cake and ice cream lol .

you really dont need to be fat to be strong .


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## Muscle (Oct 10, 2010)

You don't need to be fat to be strong but a fat guy will be stronger than most average guys if they both don't go gym.


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## MRSTRONG (Apr 18, 2009)

Dux said:


> But surely the massive fooking bellies some of them have contribute zero to their lifting ability?


correct kind of .

if a guy weighs 20 stone and moves (yoke) 40 stone its double his body is used to but if glenn ross 31stone moves a 40 stone yoke it 9 stone heavier than he so he would be more mobile even though hes 31 stone .


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## sbr (Sep 9, 2009)

IMO staying ripped year round while gaining muscle at a good rate will require perfect body building genetics (which unfortunately many of us dont have) or alot of help chemically.

For example, for me to have my abs on show i have to keep my carb intake quite low, not a problem for a few months at a time, but year round, not a chance. I couldnt deal with the lathargic feeling all the time, plus it would be almost impossible for me to gain any kind of muscle with that amount calories and carbs.

On the flip side, to gain a nice steady amount of muscle, i would need to eat excess calories, including excess carbs, which means i can practically say goodbye to my abs for a while, but it means i have decent energy levels, can manage to push heavier weights and recover quicker. I dont mean eating to the point where i could be classed as fat, but some fat gain would be inevitable.

Fortunately i find that after a bulk, when i have gained more muscle, i find it easier to lose the fat gained.


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## mikep81 (Oct 8, 2010)

ewen said:


> its muscle fibers that lift weight not fat .
> 
> powerlifters/strongmen are just lazy bodybuilders not bothered about being 8%bf or less , they/we train for strength and theres nothing better than kfc chocolate cake and ice cream lol .
> 
> you really dont need to be fat to be strong .


Wasn't Pudzianowski really lean for a strongman?


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## MRSTRONG (Apr 18, 2009)

Muscle said:


> You don't need to be fat to be strong but a fat guy will be stronger than most average guys if they both don't go gym.


no they wont the fat guy`s muscle will have adapted to his weight it wont transfer to gym lifts .


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## Milky (Nov 30, 2008)

sbr said:


> IMO staying ripped year round while gaining muscle at a good rate will require perfect body building genetics (which unfortunately many of us dont have) or alot of help chemically.
> 
> For example, for me to have my abs on show i have to keep my carb intake quite low, not a problem for a few months at a time, but year round, not a chance. I couldnt deal with the lathargic feeling all the time, plus it would be almost impossible for me to gain any kind of muscle with that amount calories and carbs.
> 
> ...


But how would YOU define a bulk mate ?

Is it a couple of stone or maybe a few pounds ?

Also given the fact you have abs already and know how to retain them / re gain them gives you the advantage of knowing how your body works etc..


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## Muscle (Oct 10, 2010)

ewen said:


> no they wont the fat guy`s muscle will have adapted to his weight it wont transfer to gym lifts .


Yeah I didn't mean gym lifts but just in general.


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## MRSTRONG (Apr 18, 2009)

mikep81 said:


> Wasn't Pudzianowski really lean for a strongman?


yeah he was a bodybuilder then the polish mafia paid for his drugs so he had the best of everything to make a machine .

genes play a big part in his look , bit like yates or coleman .

thing with mariuz he wasnt very strong in strongman terms IE axle pressing 215kg but he was great all round his massive veins carried nutrients to recover quicker than other strongmen meaning more sustained power overall .


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## weeman (Sep 6, 2007)

Muscle said:


> I also forgot to mention this but 'hard gainers' can eat ANYTHING in sight and not put on fat. People need to relise we are not all gifted with fast metabolism.


the existence of ACTUAL hard gainers is very much the minority,most who claim to be hard gainers just dont have their sh1t together nutrionally,i know i spent the first few years of bbing convinced i was one till i stopped kidding myself on 

You dont need to have a gifted metabolism to keep a set of abs and build muscle,just a modicum of common sense and be diet savvy.



onthebuild said:


> this may sound stupid but fatter people do tend to be alot stronger. Bear with me here, but if you look at olympic weightlifters and worlds strongest men their not at all ripped. Compared to ultra toned sprinters or bodybuilders who yeah can probably handle heavy weights but wouldnt be breaking records or anything. So maybe bulking works by increasing strength thus lifting heavier weights and in turn building more muscle? This is all assumption of course, I have no science to back this up! So commence the **** taking if you wish!


cant flex fat,the only advantage fat brings to strong men is in events where being a heavier mass will be an advantage,ie truck pull etc,wont do fuk all to help you bench or deadlift more.



jaycue2u said:


> There will always be exceptions


people hide behind that because it makes them feel safe,whereas in relity its not the case,yes you will have your pure genetic upper echelon like pudz for strongman,coleman for bbing,but its no coincidence that in strongman world the guys are slowly but surely getting more muscular looking as the years progress instead of looking like circus strongmen


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## MRSTRONG (Apr 18, 2009)

Muscle said:


> Yeah but I didn't mean gym lifts but just in general.


my boss is 20 stone of fat due to his mass he would crush an average untrained guy but only on things his body has adapted to because of said mass ...


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## mikep81 (Oct 8, 2010)

ewen said:


> yeah he was a bodybuilder then the polish mafia paid for his drugs so he had the best of everything to make a machine .
> 
> genes play a big part in his look , bit like yates or coleman .
> 
> thing with mariuz he wasnt very strong in strongman terms IE axle pressing 215kg but he was great all round his massive veins carried nutrients to recover quicker than other strongmen meaning more sustained power overall .


I didn't know that. I just remember his name and remembered he had a bodybuilder physique, which seems logical after your explanation.


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## Muscle (Oct 10, 2010)

How do some people have abs all year round when they don't go gym, don't follow a diet and abuse drugs? (not AAS)


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## Milky (Nov 30, 2008)

Muscle said:


> How do some people have abs all year round when they don't go gym, don't follow a diet and abuse drugs? (not AAS)


Genetically lucky maybe or they actually follow a decent diet.


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## weeman (Sep 6, 2007)

mikep81 said:


> I think the problem is that there are a lot of people who don't realise how different everybody is and how each and every person will need a different approach. A lot of people must look at pro bodybuilders in the off season and say, well Ronnie Coleman can get massively fat and then cuts it, so that's what I must do. Too many times people read something and take it exactly how it's written without considering other factors. A mate of mine has just got into lifting and never used to have any protein for breakfast. I managed to convince him to get some protein powder. He was really insistent on not changing his diet too much so wasn't interested in adding protein into his breakfast. I managed to convince him to have his oats and toast, but add a protein shake as well and all was fine until he read in a magazine that post workout is the best time to take a shake so he stopped having his shake with breakfast and moved it to post workout, but this then meant he was getting little to no protein in the morning. The problem was that this article assumed that the person reading it would have already been taking in the right macro's which my mate wasn't, hence the shake for breakfast. He read that article and took it exactly how it was written, he's now a little more educated but this is a common problem I think. It's the same as all these training articles written in magazines, what works for one, doesn't work for another.
> 
> I also agree that bulking to some just seems to be an excuse to eat what they want.


ron coleman does not get fat in the offseason,your confusing distended belly with being fat,the guy got abs,seps from top to toe,veins streaking over every bodypart.

thats a cpl times its been mentioned here about pro's getting fat in offseason,yes their version of fat vs everyone elses is different tho,you'll be lucky to ever see a pic of them bulked up but not see their abs,its almost a thing of the past now.


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## MRSTRONG (Apr 18, 2009)

mikep81 said:


> I didn't know that. I just remember his name and remembered he had a bodybuilder physique, which seems logical after your explanation.


glenn ross also pictured earlier weighing 31stone was once a bodybuilder you just wouldnt think it lol .


----------



## Milky (Nov 30, 2008)

weeman said:


> ron coleman does not get fat in the offseason,your confusing distended belly with being fat,the guy got abs,seps from top to toe,veins streaking over every bodypart.
> 
> thats a cpl times its been mentioned here about pro's getting fat in offseason,yes their version of fat vs everyone elses is different tho,you'll be lucky to ever see a pic of them bulked up but not see their abs,its almost a thing of the past now.


Totally agree with this. The term " fat " is used the minute they are out of comp condition and merely smooth.

Lets be honest most of us would kill to be " fat " like them.


----------



## weeman (Sep 6, 2007)

Muscle said:


> You don't need to be fat to be strong but a fat guy will be stronger than most average guys if they both don't go gym.


thats nonsense.



ewen said:


> its muscle fibers that lift weight not fat .
> 
> powerlifters/strongmen are just lazy bodybuilders not bothered about being 8%bf or less , they/we train for strength and theres nothing better than kfc chocolate cake and ice cream lol .
> 
> you really dont need to be fat to be strong .


sorry mate i didnt realise you already posted that or i wouldnt have doubled your post lol


----------



## onthebuild (Sep 3, 2011)

ewen said:


> its muscle fibers that lift weight not fat .
> 
> powerlifters/strongmen are just lazy bodybuilders not bothered about being 8%bf or less , they/we train for strength and theres nothing better than kfc chocolate cake and ice cream lol .
> 
> you really dont need to be fat to be strong .


i was once told dbol gives massive strength gains due to the amount of water you retain on it. Apparantly the muscle is like a spring, contracting and expanding, and as you retain water in your muscles when they contract they have an almost 'bounce back' effect due to the water trapped between the fibres. is there any truth in this? i have alot of learning still to do and ive always wondered if this was true or a load of b0llocks? also could fat do the same? i know fat is a layer above muscle so wondered if there was any fat held within the muscle itself?


----------



## Milky (Nov 30, 2008)

ewen said:


> glenn ross also pictured earlier weighing 31stone was once a bodybuilder you just wouldnt think it lol .


he was yes and a decent one at that !


----------



## Muscle (Oct 10, 2010)

Milky said:


> Genetically lucky maybe or they actually follow a decent diet.


Has to be genetically lucky because all they do is eat fast food!!!!


----------



## MRSTRONG (Apr 18, 2009)

onthebuild said:


> i was once told dbol gives massive strength gains due to the amount of water you retain on it. Apparantly the muscle is like a spring, contracting and expanding, and as you retain water in your muscles when they contract they have an almost 'bounce back' effect due to the water trapped between the fibres. is there any truth in this? i have alot of learning still to do and ive always wondered if this was true or a load of b0llocks? also could fat do the same? i know fat is a layer above muscle so wondered if there was any fat held within the muscle itself?


dbol gives you strength through a rise in both test and estrogen but having the right balance is crucial to little estrogen is as bad as too much although the later carries more serious side effects .

the mechanism is pretty much you recover better due to higher protein synthesis .

so no there is no water `spring` effect .


----------



## Ts23 (Jan 14, 2011)

my off season (bulk) is the the exact same as my prepping diet near enough only alot more quantity of it, i never go above 8% bodyfat ever, i dont see the point in getting to say 15-20% bodyfat when it all has to come back off, keep it clean and have 1 cheat a week, which is on a saturday for me, usually a night out with the boys, love it.


----------



## onthebuild (Sep 3, 2011)

ewen said:


> dbol gives you strength through a rise in both test and estrogen but having the right balance is crucial to little estrogen is as bad as too much although the later carries more serious side effects .
> 
> the mechanism is pretty much you recover better due to higher protein synthesis .
> 
> so no there is no water `spring` effect .


right, cheers for clearing that up. so basically if your body could effectively use say 100g of protein a day and the rest was wasted/converted to fat then dbol would increase that limit, so you could use more? or does the limit stay the same and you can just use the 100g more efficiently? just be good to know whether to up protein intake loads when using dbol & other aas


----------



## weeman (Sep 6, 2007)

ewen said:


> glenn ross also pictured earlier weighing 31stone was once a bodybuilder you just wouldnt think it lol .


i remember seeing pic of him on stage and thinking holy fuk would never have thought he once looked like that lol he had fantastic condition if i remember right too 



Milky said:


> Totally agree with this. The term " fat " is used the minute they are out of comp condition and merely smooth.
> 
> Lets be honest most of us would kill to be " fat " like them.


exactly mate.

as its one of my fave things to do i shall whore pics of myself to show offseason vs contest for me,i typically stay about 20-30lbs above contest weight,mon-fri i try eat bbing oriented but its nothing plain and if i want some sh1t i will have it,if things start to slip then common sense tells me to clean things up slightly or adjust something,its not hard work,the only hard part for me is actually eating as i dont have a large appetite.

first pic is me on day one of a 16 week prep,pic 2 is obv finished article that year.

I dont have amazing genetics so those who want to think that need to loose that notion,it took years of me finding what works for me,in my case after i dieted for my first show i never lost my abs again,as i always say its easier to keep them than it is to get them,its easier to reign things in than it is to slog away to see whats under there


----------



## Milky (Nov 30, 2008)

onthebuild said:


> right, cheers for clearing that up. so basically if your body could effectively use say 100g of protein a day and the rest was wasted/converted to fat then dbol would increase that limit, so you could use more? or does the limit stay the same and you can just use the 100g more efficiently? just be good to know whether to up protein intake loads when using dbol & other aas


Yes, l always up my protein intake whilst on a cycle mate.


----------



## Muscle (Oct 10, 2010)

Ts23 said:


> my off season (bulk) is the the exact same as my prepping diet near enough only alot more quantity of it, i never go above 8% bodyfat ever, i dont see the point in getting to say 15-20% bodyfat when it all has to come back off, keep it clean and have 1 cheat a week, which is on a saturday for me, usually a night out with the boys, love it.


You and Weeman make it sound so easy :crying:


----------



## GShock (May 1, 2011)

Ive always been confused by the phrase "bulk" some guys are just fat from over eating they look no different to any other guy you see waddling around, you would never know they even trained. If im gaining weight then it has to be muscle not fat, im not ripped by a long way but im going in the right direction towards the look im after, no way im I putting on extra fat.

A friend of mine has lost 7 stone it's a huge achievement and it's changed his life, now if he picked up 7 stone and tried to walk around he wound not get it off the ground, so he must have lost a shti load of muscle, that fat was not carrying it's self. Fat people have to be strong just to get around.


----------



## MRSTRONG (Apr 18, 2009)

onthebuild said:


> right, cheers for clearing that up. so basically if your body could effectively use say 100g of protein a day and the rest was wasted/converted to fat then dbol would increase that limit, so you could use more? or does the limit stay the same and you can just use the 100g more efficiently? just be good to know whether to up protein intake loads when using dbol & other aas


there does come a point where taking large amounts is just pointless i think ausbuilt takes in 500g of protein and 70 g of carbs ed , 400g would do but hes carb sensitive and the extra 250grams of meat fills him up lol .

im not sure the exact amounts of protein our bodies use from say 50g it might only be 60% add in aas and it will bump it up more than likely to 80% .


----------



## weeman (Sep 6, 2007)

onthebuild said:


> right, cheers for clearing that up. so basically if your body could effectively use say 100g of protein a day and the rest was wasted/converted to fat then dbol would increase that limit, so you could use more? or does the limit stay the same and you can just use the 100g more efficiently? just be good to know whether to up protein intake loads when using dbol & other aas


right there another common mistake,your prot,or nutrients fll stop should be up where they need to be on or off cycle,yes when using gear you will metabolise the nutrients more efficiently and 'waste' less,but keeping diet on point is what will help largely towards minimising losses off cycle,the most common mistake most make.


----------



## MRSTRONG (Apr 18, 2009)

weeman said:


> i remember seeing pic of him on stage and thinking holy fuk would never have thought he once looked like that lol he had fantastic condition if i remember right too
> 
> exactly mate.
> 
> ...


ah my eyes ...well now we know why your called weeman :whistling:


----------



## Dux (Nov 29, 2011)

weeman said:


> right there another common mistake,your prot,or nutrients fll stop should be up where they need to be on or off cycle,yes when using gear you will metabolise the nutrients more efficiently and 'waste' less,but keeping diet on point is what will help largely towards minimising losses off cycle,the most common mistake most make.


When I finished my last cycle I purposely increased my protein intake, only by 30-50g extra per day, to try and minimise losses. It seemed to work.

I now take in 400g per day every day, and will maintain this throughout my next cycle.


----------



## Milky (Nov 30, 2008)

weeman said:


> right there another common mistake,your prot,or nutrients fll stop should be up where they need to be on or off cycle,yes when using gear you will metabolise the nutrients more efficiently and 'waste' less,but keeping diet on point is what will help largely towards minimising losses off cycle,the most common mistake most make.


So basically the same throughout then Bri or not ?

I just tend to start throwing shakes in when in gear and not when not using ( in the interest of keeping my question simple )


----------



## mikep81 (Oct 8, 2010)

weeman said:


> ron coleman does not get fat in the offseason,your confusing distended belly with being fat,the guy got abs,seps from top to toe,veins streaking over every bodypart.
> 
> thats a cpl times its been mentioned here about pro's getting fat in offseason,yes their version of fat vs everyone elses is different tho,you'll be lucky to ever see a pic of them bulked up but not see their abs,its almost a thing of the past now.


Completely agree and is actually what I was trying to say. You explained it a lot better than me, but I meant that the average person will see Coleman as fat and not be able to distinguish the difference between fat and distended gut so will assume that they're OK to get fat while bulking.


----------



## Milky (Nov 30, 2008)

ewen said:


> ah my eyes ...well now we know why your called weeman :whistling:


Awww man dont..

The gun shots will come flying in now :lol:


----------



## weeman (Sep 6, 2007)

ewen said:


> ah my eyes ...well now we know why your called weeman :whistling:


 :lol: :lol:

mate you will break new pb's today just off the back of seeing those pics,its due to the awesome levels my pics give off.



Dux said:


> When I finished my last cycle I purposely increased my protein intake, only by 30-50g extra per day, to try and minimise losses. It seemed to work.
> 
> I now take in 400g per day every day, and will maintain this throughout my next cycle.


thats a good practise others may do well to follow 



Milky said:


> So basically the same throughout then Bri or not ?
> 
> I just tend to start throwing shakes in when in gear and not when not using ( in the interest of keeping my question simple )


i would keep it the same,dont get me wrong i know many lose the will or want to keep the eating the same when off cycle but it would be in their best interests if they did


----------



## weeman (Sep 6, 2007)

Milky said:


> Awww man dont..
> 
> The gun shots will come flying in now :lol:


if i wasnt about to go out this thread would now just be a flurry of gunshots taking it entirely off tangent,then nothing but cock shots to have it removed to the male animal or AL pmsl


----------



## MRSTRONG (Apr 18, 2009)

weeman said:


> :lol: :lol:
> 
> mate you will break new pb's today just off the back of seeing those pics,its due to the awesome levels my pics give off.


haha .

pheremones you believe in them affecting people ?

when im bang on the gear i smell like a hospital (apparently) and give off `good vibes` lol my work mates say when im on it they feel a sexual energy too weird i know but ive noticed this with women too its like their clits get turned on in my presence .

do you or anybody else notice this ?


----------



## Dux (Nov 29, 2011)

I know I definitely feel like Superman when I'm on, but I don't think I've reached the clit tingling stage... Yet


----------



## MRSTRONG (Apr 18, 2009)

Dux said:


> I know I definitely feel like Superman when I'm on, but I don't think I've reached the clit tingling stage... Yet


even dogs start licking their fannies


----------



## weeman (Sep 6, 2007)

ewen said:


> haha .
> 
> pheremones you believe in them affecting people ?
> 
> ...


defo mate,in the summer i make a point of taking the kids to the parents and toddler mornings at the swimming pool because its only ever mums that take their kids,when i enter the pool the water level increases by about 4 inches due to the flange release i cause in the milfs,gaggles of them have to swim to the steps to sit holding onto their vaj's such is the level of potency and sexual bodacity i eminate


----------



## Fatstuff (Mar 2, 2010)

ewen said:


> even dogs start licking their fannies


There it is ...... A derailment of an otherwise sensible thread


----------



## MRSTRONG (Apr 18, 2009)

weeman said:


> defo mate,in the summer i make a point of taking the kids to the parents and toddler mornings at the swimming pool because its only ever mums that take their kids,when i enter the pool the water level increases by about 4 inches due to the flange release i cause in the milfs,gaggles of them have to swim to the steps to sit holding onto their vaj's such is the level of potency and sexual bodacity i eminate


must admit milfs seem to be more responsive .

its like being tom jones their knickers just well up and out comes a pungent aroma only to be described as fanny lust .

next cycle is feb for me cant wait


----------



## Bamse (Feb 5, 2011)

ewen said:


> its like being tom jones their knickers just well up and out comes a pungent aroma only to be described as fanny lust .


Do you work in a nuclear power plant?


----------



## weeman (Sep 6, 2007)

ewen said:


> must admit milfs seem to be more responsive .
> 
> its like being tom jones their knickers just well up and out comes a pungent aroma only to be described as fanny lust .
> 
> next cycle is feb for me cant wait


this and many other insecure reasons are why i simply dont come off pmsl

i got the snip years ago but even still such is the phenom of my sexual prowess if i sneeze too hard in the street women have found themselves pregnant merely weeks later.


----------



## MRSTRONG (Apr 18, 2009)

Bamse said:


> Do you work in a nuclear power plant?


no but i have used lots of magic mushrooms in the 90`s .....


----------



## Dux (Nov 29, 2011)

Fatstuff said:


> There it is ...... A derailment of an otherwise sensible thread


I reckon this message board is good for at least 50 genuine laugh out loud moments a day.

I've never known anything like it.


----------



## Fatstuff (Mar 2, 2010)

weeman said:


> this and many other insecure reasons are why i simply dont come off pmsl
> 
> i got the snip years ago but even still such is the phenom of my sexual prowess if i sneeze too hard in the street women have found themselves pregnant merely weeks later.


Do u stay on high doses all the time and just swap and change or do u cycle high and low doses?


----------



## Milky (Nov 30, 2008)

Fatstuff said:


> Do u stay on high doses all the time and just swap and change or do u cycle high and low doses?


Mate Weeman doesnt understand the words " low doses "...

Its like questioning his masculinaty !


----------



## weeman (Sep 6, 2007)

Fatstuff said:


> Do u stay on high doses all the time and just swap and change or do u cycle high and low doses?


i can be erratic,for instance recently been sticking in 800mg test every 7-21 days lol i have been known in the past to cruise on maybe 1g test lol but i was compensating for sh1tty bbing lifestyle ie partying too much etc,worked a treat tho lol



Milky said:


> Mate Weeman doesnt understand the words " low doses "...
> 
> Its like questioning his masculinaty !


he did just call me a poof didnt he?


----------



## Fatstuff (Mar 2, 2010)

weeman said:


> i can be erratic,for instance recently been sticking in 800mg test every 7-21 days lol i have been known in the past to cruise on maybe 1g test lol but i was compensating for sh1tty bbing lifestyle ie partying too much etc,worked a treat tho lol
> 
> he did just call me a poof didnt he?


I didnt call u a poof - if I did it would have the words pi55 stench and ginger somewhere in front if it


----------



## weeman (Sep 6, 2007)

Fatstuff said:


> I didnt call u a poof - if I did it would have the words pi55 stench and ginger somewhere in front if it


no mate being a ginge is a baptism of fire,ginges are so manly that even the gay ones shag women,thats how fkn manly we are.


----------



## MRSTRONG (Apr 18, 2009)

weeman said:


> no mate being a ginge is a baptism of fire,ginges are so manly that even the gay ones shag women,thats how fkn manly we are.


but you do smell of wee .....


----------



## Ash1981 (Jun 16, 2009)

Milky said:


> Weeman made a really good point on a thread yesterday, He basically asked if you train to look like a bb'er then why wouldnt you want to look like a bb'er 12 months of the yr ?
> 
> To me this is bang on the money, l dont want to look like some one who " might " train or " did " train, l want to look like some one who DOES train, no matter what time of the yr it is.


But surely to look like a bodybuilder and someone who does train then you need to be fairly ripped along with being hench??? hence the cutting part??


----------



## Fatstuff (Mar 2, 2010)

weeman said:


> no mate being a ginge is a baptism of fire,ginges are so manly that even the gay ones shag women,thats how fkn manly we are.


They are just thankful for what they can get - any port in a storm :lol:


----------



## Milky (Nov 30, 2008)

PEOPLE.....

For those new to the board Weeman could tell you tales that will make you question your own masculinity... he is a complete sexual deviant and scary with it... He has done things only porn stars dream of !!

Question him at your own demise... he will destroy you !!


----------



## Milky (Nov 30, 2008)

ash1981 said:


> But surely to look like a bodybuilder and someone who does train then you need to be fairly ripped along with being hench??? hence the cutting part??


But why do you need to cut if you dont allow yourself to get that fat in the first place ?

3 competetive BB'ers on this thread have said its counter productive putting that much fat on..


----------



## MRSTRONG (Apr 18, 2009)

i have seen `weeman` in the AL ...


----------



## Milky (Nov 30, 2008)

ewen said:


> i have seen `weeman` in the AL ...


Even Chuck Norris wont join the AL coz of Weeman !!


----------



## MRSTRONG (Apr 18, 2009)

Milky said:


> Even Chuck Norris wont join the AL coz of Weeman !!


input weeman into google and the internet goes offline ....


----------



## Fatstuff (Mar 2, 2010)

Is it just me that wants weeman to nail my mrs in front of me?


----------



## onthebuild (Sep 3, 2011)

Milky said:


> But why do you need to cut if you dont allow yourself to get that fat in the first place ?
> 
> 3 competetive BB'ers on this thread have said its counter productive putting that much fat on..


least being fat would be warm, im living in a house with a broken boiler atm! Freezing!

this sounds like one of those 'chuck norris is so hard he...' discussions now


----------



## Tommy10 (Feb 17, 2009)

Milky said:


> PEOPLE.....
> 
> For those new to the board Weeman could tell you tales that will make you question your own masculinity... he is a complete sexual deviant and scary with it... He has done things only porn stars dream of !!
> 
> Question him at your own demise... he will destroy you !!


Uch he's no that bad....think of him like a friendly gynachologist


----------



## Tommy10 (Feb 17, 2009)

Fatstuff said:


> Is it just me that wants weeman to nail my mrs in front of me?


 I want to see him nailing both of you lolll


----------



## Ash1981 (Jun 16, 2009)

Milky said:


> But why do you need to cut if you dont allow yourself to get that fat in the first place ?
> 
> 3 competetive BB'ers on this thread have said its counter productive putting that much fat on..


Ok but what if your already 20% BF???..


----------



## Ash1981 (Jun 16, 2009)

Fatstuff said:


> Is it just me that wants weeman to nail my mrs in front of me?


Nope

And he would DEF have the brown hole when it comes to my mrs, she LOVES it up there:cowboy:


----------



## Muscle (Oct 10, 2010)

ash1981 said:


> Ok but what if your already 20% BF???..


Then you have no choice but to lose it!


----------



## Wings (May 1, 2011)

Sorry to jump right to the end of this thread but isnt this what the pros do? in season and off season?


----------



## Tommy10 (Feb 17, 2009)

Some of the guys in my gym are big but their still fat especially their mid sections , you can see their on gear, their lifts are heavy but their far from lean let alone ripped, I don't see the point, outside the gym no one knows what weights your lifting, no one on the street says their big and a bit chubby but at least their deads are 150kg... Unless your competing I don't really see the point of bulking then cutting... I much prefer lean and defined...


----------



## Muscle (Oct 10, 2010)

Wings said:


> Sorry to jump right to the end of this thread but isnt this what the pros do? in season and off season?


Yes the pros bulk and cut but their bulk doesn't get them fat. They have abs all year round.


----------



## Muscle (Oct 10, 2010)

anab0lic said:


> Well you have to gain some fat to put on muscle, as you need to be in a calorie surplus and its pretty much impossible to be so precise that theres zero overspill....but yeah, most guys tend to over the span of a few months, eat far more than they need and end up with like a 30% muscle 70% fat gain - or worse.
> 
> This usually happens for a few reasons....
> 
> ...


Great post, Repped.

So are you saying you should have 200-300 calories over maintenance to gain muscle whilst minimising fat gains but increase/decrease calories according to size of muscle groups which you are training?


----------



## Tombo (Feb 21, 2009)

I agree with this thread so much!


----------



## Dux (Nov 29, 2011)

Muscle said:


> Great post, Repped.
> 
> So are you saying you should have 200-300 calories over maintenance to gain muscle whilst minimising fat gains but increase/decrease calories according to size of muscle groups which you are training?


That's what I already do, on harder workout days I take in more carbs (50-75g) and on non- workout days I drop them by the same amount.

I know you're watching every carb mate, I was too when I was trying to burn through my body fat like there was no tomorrow, but you still need some for energy and to build muscle.


----------



## Muscle (Oct 10, 2010)

Dux said:


> That's what I already do, on harder workout days I take in more carbs (50-75g) and on non- workout days I drop them by the same amount.
> 
> I know you're watching every carb mate, I was too when I was trying to burn through my body fat like there was no tomorrow, but you still need some for energy and to build muscle.


I am currently consuming 130g of carbs per day and I lose 2lbs per week so if I reduce 50g of carbs on Cardio/Rest days = 80g per day.

Would it make a difference to my fat loss goals? shouldn't I replace the missing carbs calories with protein or something?


----------



## Dux (Nov 29, 2011)

Someone else will be able to give you a better technical answer than I can, but I used to throw in days where I ate very low carb to keep my body guessing.


----------



## Ash1981 (Jun 16, 2009)

Muscle said:


> Then you have no choice but to lose it!


Yea but when before you go on a 12 month clean bulk or after when your bigger but possibly carrying more than 20%


----------



## Moonbeam (Jul 20, 2011)

Some people manage to put on fat easier than muscle, so the thought of having more bf might be mistaken for looking big. But as we all know there aint no point in looking big if your muscles are hidden away under a high% of bf. Besides some people who bulk realise that they have gained too much fat and by the time they cut the carbs they are back to square 1. Personally I mix it up and have 1 day high carb next day low etc. Always keeping protein high so I know that I'm not gaining more fat than muscle. Dont get me wrong it takes tiiiiiiiiime naturally but I aint in a rush and will be better off in a few years time. Lean and bulk are 2 different things but I might try to lean bulk 1 day :001_tt2:


----------



## Milky (Nov 30, 2008)

ash1981 said:


> Ok but what if your already 20% BF???..


Do you consider 20 % BF to be excessive mate ?

By excessive l mean to the point you dont look like you train..


----------



## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

anab0lic said:


> It doesnt take a huge surplus of calories to build muscle...well it does, but over the space of several months...Id estimate you could probably grow just fine on +200-300kcal over mainteneance per day depending on which bodyparts you trained that day. .... You arnt packing slabs of muscle onto your frame each workout, the growth is slow and thus doesnt require that much excess energy to provide the building blocks for that growth....even on gear.


man speaks much sense.... in fact I'll put some easy to follow numbers around it to demonstrate:

1. 1kg of muscle= 250g protein (roughly 25% protein like steak, the rest is water).

2. to add 1kg of muscle per week, you would need 250g/7days, or 35.7g of protein EXTRA per day.

3.you already train, and 1hour weights is about 400cals- say all from carbs, and say you train an extra 20% harder.. so 80 cals more or 20g carbs/day.

4. so far, you need 35.7g protein, and 20g carbs extra/day- lets be generous and double the carbs to 40g, and round the protein up to 40g, thats 320cals extra per day from protein and carbs only, if you'r shooting for 1kg of muscle (2.2lb) per week...

this assumes you're on AAS and can use 100% of the protein for muscle gain...

now for an average BB, thats prob around 10-15% over maintenance....

easy to overshoot that when bulking...


----------



## Ash1981 (Jun 16, 2009)

Milky said:


> Do you consider 20 % BF to be excessive mate ?
> 
> By excessive l mean to the point you dont look like you train..


no but for so long now i have been at the junction of not worrying about the 20% approx BF and concentrate on adding a few good lbs of muscle or cutting the bodyfat to reveal abs but run the risk of looking skinny(er)

Like you said milkster whats the point in doing this if you dont look like you DO workout and being ripped is a better look than not


----------



## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

Muscle said:


> I am currently consuming 130g of carbs per day and I lose 2lbs per week so if I reduce 50g of carbs on Cardio/Rest days = 80g per day.
> 
> Would it make a difference to my fat loss goals? shouldn't I replace the missing carbs calories with protein or something?


yes, when i drop carbs, i replace the cals with protein. When on AAS your body will not use the protein for energy... but if you're natty, you're screwed.. so just drop the cals.. LOL (AAS stop gluconeogenesis from protein, still allow it from glycerol)



Milky said:


> Do you consider 20 % BF to be excessive mate ?
> 
> By excessive l mean to the point you dont look like you train..


absolutely... when I was 20% (well was 24.7% at one stage) no one even asked if i trained.. i actually weighed more than i do now...


----------



## Ash1981 (Jun 16, 2009)

ausbuilt said:


> man speaks much sense.... in fact I'll put some easy to follow numbers around it to demonstrate:
> 
> 1. 1kg of muscle= 250g protein (roughly 25% protein like steak, the rest is water).
> 
> ...


Hardly anything then really?


----------



## Milky (Nov 30, 2008)

ausbuilt said:


> yes, when i drop carbs, i replace the cals with protein. When on AAS your body will not use the protein for energy... but if you're natty, you're screwed.. so just drop the cals.. LOL (AAS stop gluconeogenesis from protein, still allow it from glycerol)
> 
> absolutely... when I was 20% (well was 24.7% at one stage) no one even asked if i trained.. i actually weighed more than i do now...


But is this not down to the individual mate ?

I brought up the 20 % as a figure, can some people carry it better than others ?

Surely it cant be a one size fits all scenario...


----------



## Wings (May 1, 2011)

Whilst on the subject of carbs etc I see a place offering a "carb blocker" would this help then or is it another pointless gap in the market? I dont consume a lot of carbs but would like to reduce it some what


----------



## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

Milky said:


> But is this not down to the individual mate ?
> 
> I brought up the 20 % as a figure, can some people carry it better than others ?
> 
> Surely it cant be a one size fits all scenario...


well, sure 20% untrained is fatter than 20% trained, as the trained look will carry it of better...

but, if you're heavier, through muscle density, that 20% fat represents a larger amount of fat overall....

The concencus from trainers like Paul Borreson, A.L. Rea etc was that over 12-15% is to fat for a BB... Dan Duchaine said over 8-10% was to fat..


----------



## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

Wings said:


> Whilst on the subject of carbs etc I see a place offering a "carb blocker" would this help then or is it another pointless gap in the market? I dont consume a lot of carbs but would like to reduce it some what


hey if you buy that OTC carb blocker, i'll sell you a penis extender...

metformin will reduce the insulin/fat storage impact of the carbs you do take in; if you limit carbs anyway, over an extended period (like a year) its metabolically similar to a 30% cal deficit..


----------



## Milky (Nov 30, 2008)

ausbuilt said:


> hey if you buy that OTC carb blocker, i'll sell you a penis extender...


Can l get an order in for one of those please mate...


----------



## retro-mental (Dec 2, 2010)

with me i find not using any gear i find it hard to gain easily unless i consume massive amounts of food. I keep my diet as clean as i can with the main staple being eggs, milk, chicken, rice, oats etc etc but obviously the more i eat the more fats and carbs go in. I couldnt gain eating lean protiens and little fats / carbs so i add fat. for me i am a long way away from achieving any goals in the body department so a small amount of fat is ok for me.

I think it is down to individuals in how they gain as not everyone has the same hgenetic make and metabolism therefore some people just gain lean some gain fat and muscle and some dont even gain. Once i have gained enough mass where i think i am in a good place i will cut a bit just to get the some of the fat off but am going to try to keep bulking as clean as i can for the time being


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## Ash1981 (Jun 16, 2009)

Another gread thread started by the Milkster once again. :thumb:


----------



## Milky (Nov 30, 2008)

ash1981 said:


> Another gread thread started by the Milkster once again. :thumb:


Ha ha, cheers mate, l do try now and again...


----------



## Wings (May 1, 2011)

ausbuilt said:


> hey if you buy that OTC carb blocker, i'll sell you a penis extender...
> 
> metformin will reduce the insulin/fat storage impact of the carbs you do take in; if you limit carbs anyway, over an extended period (like a year) its metabolically similar to a 30% cal deficit..


Hahaha gotta say mate, u know ur shizz lol. Thought it was a load of rubbish when i see it. Think its bad that company's can get away with it


----------



## Ash1981 (Jun 16, 2009)

Milky said:


> Ha ha, cheers mate, l do try now and again...


There always top mate.

This ones already onto its 10 page


----------



## need2bodybuild (May 11, 2011)

I am slowly finding out more about my body and as a result i'm clean bulking with around 500kcals less than i was a year ago but i've got a few more lbs of muscle now lol. I ate way too much back then and have recently shifted a stone of fat and now have abs. I plan to slowly bulk and if i gain a little bit more fat than i planned, before a holiday I will get rid of it quicker than i did recently shifting a stone of it lol.

No point in gaining loads of fat coz you'll only take valueble time away from building muscle trying to shift it!


----------



## need2bodybuild (May 11, 2011)

ash1981 said:


> Another gread thread started by the Milkster once again. :thumb:


Here here! lol


----------



## Ash1981 (Jun 16, 2009)

need2bodybuild said:


> I am slowly finding out more about my body and as a result i'm clean bulking with around 500kcals less than i was a year ago but i've got a few more lbs of muscle now lol. I ate way too much back then and have recently shifted a stone of fat and now have abs. I plan to slowly bulk and if i gain a little bit more fat than i planned, before a holiday I will get rid of it quicker than i did recently shifting a stone of it lol.
> 
> No point in gaining loads of fat coz you'll only take valueble time away from building muscle trying to shift it!


So did you Actively shift that stone?

Or did it come off over a time?


----------



## need2bodybuild (May 11, 2011)

ash1981 said:


> So did you Actively shift that stone?
> 
> Or did it come off over a time?


I shifted it in a period of 9 weeks mate.


----------



## Dux (Nov 29, 2011)

ausbuilt said:


> man speaks much sense.... in fact I'll put some easy to follow numbers around it to demonstrate:
> 
> 1. 1kg of muscle= 250g protein (roughly 25% protein like steak, the rest is water).
> 
> ...


So basically what you're saying is that what is traditionally understood to be "bulking" is totally unnecessary?

You posted something similar to this the other day, and from what I took from it I changed my plans on how I was going to eat when on cycle.


----------



## Muscle (Oct 10, 2010)

I love Ausbuilt's posts


----------



## Milky (Nov 30, 2008)

Dux said:


> So basically what you're saying is that what is traditionally understood to be "bulking" is totally unnecessary?
> 
> You posted something similar to this the other day, and from what I took from it I changed my plans on how I was going to eat when on cycle.


Me too TBH, l have been doing a lot of reading on here of late and having re thinks on a lot of things.

Been some cracking threads and some cracking answers / advice recently.


----------



## Dux (Nov 29, 2011)

Milky said:


> Been some cracking threads and some cracking answers / advice recently.


Damn right, it's like having 24 hour access to advice on pretty much any area of bodybuilding.

I don't know about everyone meeting somewhere for a p1ss up, if I come I'm bringing a notepad and pen


----------



## need2bodybuild (May 11, 2011)

Dux said:


> Damn right, it's like having 24 hour access to advice on pretty much any area of bodybuilding.
> 
> *I don't know about everyone meeting somewhere for a p1ss up, if I come I'm bringing a notepad and pen *


Hahaha! Awesome!


----------



## Muscle (Oct 10, 2010)

I would also like to ask if you have a cheat meal (a lot of carbs) once a week on a weights day would you reduce carbs in your previous meals to accommodate the carbs in your cheat meal?


----------



## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

Dux said:


> So basically what you're saying is that what is traditionally understood to be "bulking" is totally unnecessary?
> 
> You posted something similar to this the other day, and from what I took from it I changed my plans on how I was going to eat when on cycle.


well bulking up is eating excess calories to build muscle- you DO NEED excess cals, and extra protein should be a part of that; but reality is, bulking up is not eating everything in site (I WISH IT WAS!!!)

To many BBs use bulking up as an excuse to be fat- because they're building muscle. Fair enough if you compete once or twice a year- if you ACTUALLY diet down to single digit fat levels- believe me, you dont feel like getting to fat afterwards.. Problem is, loads bulk up, but few rip up afterwards... and just get paranoid about getting small..



Muscle said:


> I love Ausbuilt's posts


 :blush: thanks, i try and talk logic/sense...


----------



## Milky (Nov 30, 2008)

Muscle said:


> I would also like to ask if you have a cheat meal (a lot of carbs) once a week on a weights day would you reduce carbs in your previous meals to accommodate the carbs in your cheat meal?


I dont think so mate, its a case of keeping the body guessing as to what is coming..


----------



## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

Muscle said:


> I would also like to ask if you have a cheat meal (a lot of carbs) once a week on a weights day would you reduce carbs in your previous meals to accommodate the carbs in your cheat meal?


this depends on your diet...

If you follow a cyclic keto diet- you get a cheat 24hours..

I'm on a low carb (non keto diet) at the moment, but i still go for a cheat day.. when i say a cheat day, its still 5% fats or less, BUT well over 1.5kg of carbs.. and varies between 6,000-10,000cals for the day.... keeps me happy.. live for that sunday.. eating, no training....


----------



## Dux (Nov 29, 2011)

ausbuilt said:


> To many BBs use bulking up as an excuse to be fat- because they're building muscle. Fair enough if you compete once or twice a year- if you ACTUALLY diet down to single digit fat levels- believe me, you dont feel like getting to fat afterwards.. Problem is, loads bulk up, but few rip up afterwards... and just get paranoid about getting small..


I made that mistake a couple of years ago, I built a fair bit of muscle through ramping up my calories and protein, plus having a couple of cycles of PH's, but I looked like a sack of sh1t because I was still fat, with added muscle I looked even bigger.


----------



## Ash1981 (Jun 16, 2009)

What about if you have a active job?

do you need to find your maintanence cals then up from there?

Cos for me maintanence would be around 3600/3700 according to how ive worked out my macros


----------



## weeman (Sep 6, 2007)

Fatstuff said:


> They are just thankful for what they can get - any port in a storm :lol:


lol :lol:

oh my friend if only you knew :lol:



Milky said:


> But why do you need to cut if you dont allow yourself to get that fat in the first place ?
> 
> 3 competetive BB'ers on this thread have said its counter productive putting that much fat on..


exactly,but hey what do we know lol



ewen said:


> i have seen `weeman` in the AL ...


what has been seen cannot be unseen,its looking directly at a bright light,you keep seeing the image in front of you loooong after you shut your lappy :lol:



ewen said:


> input weeman into google and the internet goes offline ....


LMFAO

Google search engine has 4 settings strict,moderate,no filtering and then 'weeman'

:lol: :lol:


----------



## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

ash1981 said:


> What about if you have a active job?
> 
> do you need to find your maintanence cals then up from there?
> 
> Cos for me maintanence would be around 3600/3700 according to how ive worked out my macros


well like with any diet- individual differences- you need to work out your own mainteance cals- i sit at a desk when not working out, so def need less cals than a tradesman...


----------



## weeman (Sep 6, 2007)

Fatstuff said:


> Is it just me that wants weeman to nail my mrs in front of me?


send me your addy and her picture and we can make this beautiful moment happen,think of me as an xmas present for your girl 



ash1981 said:


> Ok but what if your already 20% BF???..


then train and eat consistently,you will gain muscle,burn fat and as you gain muscle you will as a side burn even more fat 



ash1981 said:


> Nope
> 
> And he would DEF have the brown hole when it comes to my mrs, she LOVES it up there:cowboy:


i DEFO want a pm lololol


----------



## weeman (Sep 6, 2007)

ausbuilt said:


> man speaks much sense.... in fact I'll put some easy to follow numbers around it to demonstrate:
> 
> 1. 1kg of muscle= 250g protein (roughly 25% protein like steak, the rest is water).
> 
> ...


prob one of the best ways i have seen it put in here so far,everyone keeps on shouting x amount of kcals above maintenance,but that means fuk all,could make up the defecit in mars bars,would still result in kcal surplus,people need to speak in macros more often instead of kcals


----------



## weeman (Sep 6, 2007)

ausbuilt said:


> yes, when i drop carbs, i replace the cals with protein. When on AAS your body will not use the protein for energy... but if you're natty, you're screwed.. so just drop the cals.. LOL (*AAS stop gluconeogenesis from protein, still allow it from glycerol*)
> 
> absolutely... when I was 20% (well was 24.7% at one stage) no one even asked if i trained.. i actually weighed more than i do now...


not strictly true,it will still happen if in defecit and you have little to no carbs or fats coming in regardless of how much aas is being used,i've learned that the hard way lol


----------



## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

weeman said:


> not strictly true,it will still happen if in defecit and you have little to no carbs or fats coming in regardless of how much aas is being used,i've learned that the hard way lol


agree when dieting for a comp or under 9% bf... its the reason i took 3.6g of injectables... as my diet was 500g protein, 50g carbs, 50g fats... obviously some gluconeogenesis would have to happen for the brain at least.. but, I would say the majority of the fuel is glycerol from breaking fats into glycerol and free fatty acids.. that being said, if the HIGH levels of AAS could stop gluconeogenesis 100%.. then I (or anyone) would gain muscle during the process.. and lose fat.. but it don't happen that way....

Still, broadly, very few non-comp BBs drops carbs that much to even tell...


----------



## weeman (Sep 6, 2007)

unsure of the truth behind it but have also heard that some speculate the amonia like smell that come off us when on a high prot diet etc results from the process of gluconeogenesis,as said tho i dont know how much truth is in that.


----------



## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

weeman said:


> unsure of the truth behind it but have also heard that some speculate the amonia like smell that come off us when on a high prot diet etc results from the process of gluconeogenesis,as said tho i dont know how much truth is in that.


well the NH3 molecule is an amine- that makes up an amino acid.. also responsible for the rotten fish smell..


----------



## Ash1981 (Jun 16, 2009)

weeman said:


> send me your addy and her picture and we can make this beautiful moment happen,think of me as an xmas present for your girl
> 
> then train and eat consistently,you will gain muscle,burn fat and as you gain muscle you will as a side burn even more fat
> 
> i DEFO want a pm lololol


So you CAN build muscle and burn fat at the same time...sweet:beer: :bounce:


----------



## lukeee (Aug 17, 2009)

I reckon i can count on one hand the amount of lads that have bulked AND then cut in my gym... Most just bulk....bulk....bulk.... and look shat for it!!


----------



## weeman (Sep 6, 2007)

ash1981 said:


> So you CAN build muscle and burn fat at the same time...sweet:beer: :bounce:


yes ok we have established that,now can we get to the bit you pm me more details of your bum love loving other half please.

note lack of smiley and intense seriousness of post.


----------



## Muscle (Oct 10, 2010)

weeman said:


> yes ok we have established that,now can we get to the bit you pm me more details of your bum love loving other half please.
> 
> note lack of smiley and intense seriousness of post.


I think you've been scammed mate.


----------



## weeman (Sep 6, 2007)

Muscle said:


> I think you've been scammed mate.


so do i mate,he's getting negged to death then reported to mods 

huff huff


----------



## Kennyken (Jun 20, 2011)

So to sum up are we saying its better to eat clean all year round then rather "bulking and cutting"

Eating high protein, moderate fats and low carbs and adjusting carbs if starting to get fat......

????


----------



## Milky (Nov 30, 2008)

Kennyken said:


> So to sum up are we saying its better to eat clean all year round then rather "bulking and cutting"
> 
> Eating high protein, moderate fats and low carbs and adjusting carbs if starting to get fat......
> 
> ????


Basically yes...


----------



## Kennyken (Jun 20, 2011)

Milky said:


> Basically yes...


Thank you milky mate....im trying to make my training and diet simple as possible so trying to sum everything up


----------



## Milky (Nov 30, 2008)

Kennyken said:


> Thank you milky mate....im trying to make my training and diet simple as possible so trying to sum everything up


The lads who have / do compete on here say they see " bulking " as wasted time and energy and TBH l have to agree, why pile on loads of weight to have to get rid of it again ?


----------



## Kennyken (Jun 20, 2011)

i agree keep it simple too. eat well all year round. Not just for purpose of building muscle but general health and wellbeing..

Ps i liked your comment milky which brings your likes count to 10000!!!!


----------



## cas (Jan 9, 2011)

Milky said:


> I read this a lot on here...
> 
> " l want to bulk for *** months then start a cut for my holiday " blah blah blah..
> 
> ...


i imagine it must be hard to eat clean for 9 months straight, i know i would not be able to do it


----------



## Hendrix (Sep 16, 2009)

I see more Pro BB's that don't add too much fat in the offseason, meaning shorter pre comp cutting cycles and better being able to gauge symetary etc.

Makes more sense to me.


----------



## Hendrix (Sep 16, 2009)




----------



## cas (Jan 9, 2011)

hendrix said:


> View attachment 70836


And they say 'coloured' is pc incorrect, he don't look black to me


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## maxie (Jan 31, 2011)

Fair enough if your already big it would make no sense to do a bulk unless you want to be even bigger,and the 3 month bulk and three month cut thing is ok if you want to look good on the beach.

But surely if you want to get from 100kg to 120kg your gonna have to eat a serious amount of food,and keeping it too clean is just going to make it take twice as long.

Its frigin treble hard if your not on gear,your only chance is to lift hard and heavy and eat plenty of food.


----------



## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

maxie said:


> Fair enough if your already big it would make no sense to do a bulk unless you want to be even bigger,and the 3 month bulk and three month cut thing is ok if you want to look good on the beach.
> 
> But surely if you want to get from 100kg to 120kg your gonna have to eat a serious amount of food,and keeping it too clean is just going to make it take twice as long.
> 
> Its frigin treble hard if your not on gear,your only chance is to lift hard and heavy and eat plenty of food.


well if you're not on AAS you will just get fat...

Even on AAS.. and eating clean, if you consume more cals than you need, even providing for training and the extra growth you want, you'll store the excess as fat.. a goal of 1kg/muscle week on AAS is ambitious, but it still only requires an extra 320cals...


----------



## Dirk McQuickly (Dec 29, 2010)

I have to say, this is one of the most informative threads I've read in a long time.


----------



## Tasty (Aug 28, 2007)

chilli said:


> I have to say, this is one of the most informative threads I've read in a long time.


You should have a look in the training sections mate


----------



## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

Milky said:


> The lads who have / do compete on here say they see " bulking " as wasted time and energy and TBH l have to agree, why pile on loads of weight to have to get rid of it again ?


there's another issue with "bulking":

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2011/05/20/your-waist-size-predicts-heart-disease-death-better-than-your-weight.aspx

Forget about BF%; its fine to add weight (muscle and fat) in a quest for muscle mass, but, if during your "bulk up" your waist hits 37" then according to the medical facts, you're FAT... no further measurement required... if your waist is over 40" you're obese...

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000216/bio

arnie.. 57" chest, 34" waist...

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/drobson207.htm

also check out that tool for proportions...


----------



## Muscle (Oct 10, 2010)

I think the smartest and easiest thing to do is increase your calories slowly, monitor your progress and adjust accordingly.

Add more cardio if needed.


----------



## Milky (Nov 30, 2008)

Muscle said:


> I think the smartest and easiest thing to do is increase your calories slowly, monitor your progress and adjust accordingly.
> 
> Add more cardio if needed.


NO NO NO NO NO !!!

Eat what the fu*k you want, tell people your " bulking " then spend months trying to get rid of your " bulking " to try and see some definition...

Are you retarded ?


----------



## maxie (Jan 31, 2011)

Why do a lot of lads put no size on after years of bodbuilding?years of undereating!

If youve got a lot of juice going in you can maybe get away with it,if not youve got to eat your way up.

Not getting to be a fatcnut but not being afraid to get a little bit extra.

I wish to fcuk i had someone explain this to me when i was in m y20s instead i kept it clean and didnt get over 95kg!I am 105 at the minute and i want to get to 110 i have to get stronger and eat my way up.NOTbeing a fat cnut but not being too clean.

How many 250plus bodybulders are on here at five foot ten?

Not fcuking me anyways cos i wasted my best years fcukng about at the dinner table keeping it too clean!


----------



## Milky (Nov 30, 2008)

maxie said:


> Why do a lot of lads put no size on after years of bodbuilding?years of undereating!
> 
> If youve got a lot of juice going in you can maybe get away with it,if not youve got to eat your way up.
> 
> ...


No one is saying you cant put a bit of weight on mate, what l am getting at is putting MASSES of weight on when its completely unnessacary and spoils what you are actually aiming for.


----------



## Tommy10 (Feb 17, 2009)

Milky said:


> No one is saying you cant put a bit of weight on mate, what l am getting at is putting MASSES of weight on when its completely unnessacary and spoils what you are actually aiming for.


Weight on !! Are you crazy milky !! Swear word where I come from


----------



## cas (Jan 9, 2011)

some one better tell lee to slow down a little


----------



## Milky (Nov 30, 2008)

cas said:


> some one better tell lee to slow down a little


I knew someone would bring this one into it..

Firstly, he has the foundations for it so he can pretty much do what he likes.

Secondly, he has the knowledge and where with all to be able to turn it around in 12 weeks, hell of a difference between him and the average trainer..


----------



## lukeee (Aug 17, 2009)

Milky said:


> No one is saying you cant put a bit of weight on mate, what l am getting at is putting MASSES of weight on when its completely unnessacary and spoils what you are actually aiming for.


This ^

Some of the youngsters at my gym are so concerned about putting on weight!

They can be coming along nicely, lifting weights and getting bigger, you know the type, you see them progress over the months and start showing definition etc and you think fair play, and then its like they lose all patience and decide a good ol bulk bulk bulk is whats needed, not a good clean bulk either by the look of it, and they rarely ever shift it after either, they just look like young honey monsters!

I think because they hear all the time about bulking and cutting they think its a piece of pishh and it will all fall off leaving them ripped and with huge defined muscles which the ladies will love...

Oh how i snigger :whistling:


----------



## TH0R (Aug 15, 2007)

ausbuilt said:


> hey if you buy that OTC carb blocker, i'll sell you a penis extender...


Can you get your hands on a penis reducer, I could really do with one of those


----------



## lukeee (Aug 17, 2009)

tel3563 said:


> Can you get your hands on a penis reducer, I could really do with one of those


Stretch you a tad does it? :tongue:


----------



## TH0R (Aug 15, 2007)

lukeee said:


> Stretch you a tad does it? :tongue:


 :lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## cas (Jan 9, 2011)

Milky said:


> I knew someone would bring this one into it..
> 
> Firstly, he has the foundations for it so he can pretty much do what he likes.
> 
> Secondly, he has the knowledge and where with all to be able to turn it around in 12 weeks, hell of a difference between him and the average trainer..


You have got to love Mr lee though


----------



## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

maxie said:


> Why do a lot of lads put no size on after years of bodbuilding?years of undereating!
> 
> If youve got a lot of juice going in you can maybe get away with it,if not youve got to eat your way up.
> 
> ...


excess cals are fat cals... AAS or not.. clean or not..

you can't flex fat... so I don't see the point of "eating your way up"..


----------



## baggsy1436114680 (Jan 23, 2010)

This thread brings the questions i know it will vary but lets say how much pounds of muscle can be gained in a month?? Just a rough idea of what to aim for


----------



## TH0R (Aug 15, 2007)

Hmm


----------



## kingdale (Nov 2, 2010)

not read all the comments but i think most people dont start off toned so just to get to the point of starting a lean bulk would take a while. and i think overall you will gain more muscle bulking rather than lean bulk. as you maybe eating less and not gaining as much muscle as possible. this is more aimed at begginners as most of them wont know how much calories is best for lean bulk and would be better off over eating and losing the fat later


----------



## kingdale (Nov 2, 2010)

i havent read any comments so if this has already been covered sorry


----------



## musio (Jan 25, 2008)

Brilliant article here. This really made me think about 'how you look all year round' whilst still gaining muscle. After reading this, I went and dug up everything i could find on Christian Thibaudeau. The only other thing i read that gave me the wow factor of information was Aus's post a couple of pages back *http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/general-conversation/160642-why-bulk-cut-10.html#post2723930*... Awesome stuff!

This puts things into perspective and confirms the cut and bulk is old thinking..

http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/sports_body_training_performance/the_truth_about_bulking


----------



## geeby112 (Mar 15, 2008)

I never got this theory for normal gym goers. Some people look like they on constant bulk. I prefer to gain while staying lean, takes longer but A 10lb gain on a lean body looks huge.


----------



## jake87 (May 7, 2010)

i reckon the bulk and cut is old school. absolutely no need to do it with advances in drugs and diet knowledge, ESPECIALLY if you arent going on stage.


----------



## sunn (Apr 11, 2011)

Well I have just finished reading this whole thread bit by bit....great info and common sense really. When. I posted up my diet before the advice was eat more just eat more how bad that advice was!! Lol

My maintanance is about 2500kcals and I eat about 200 over this a day on a good day my pt a natty bodybuilder is 12 stone something and look massive with low bodyfat so I now understand that putting just weight in is pointless! He also works on macros as in grams of protein carbs etc much better than counting kcals I find otherwise it just becomes very confusing!


----------



## musio (Jan 25, 2008)

Just wanted to add, following Aus's post, the extra calories aren't really that much of an excess to build muscle. I assume this could easily be supplemented by a shake a day with the right macros... It reminds me of pregnant women who say they need to eat so much extra for the new baby but in reality they need around 100-300 calories a day extra to make a whole new life.


----------



## TH0R (Aug 15, 2007)

Hmm, all respect to Aus but its one opinion amongst many, works for him but won't work for everybody.

The single biggest mistake a newby or novice makes in this game is not eating enough good food

Granted, there will be the odd exception but on the whole I'd say 90% rely too much on protein

shakes, which ateotd is processed and packaged to simply make a huge profit for the companies.

Its uncomfortable eating lots of good wholesome food, but how do you expect your body to grow to

its optimum if you don't force it adapt to more nutrients??

You don't complain that you have to force your muscles to grow by lifting heavy a55 weights but

when it comes down to the other part of a very basic formula you complain, IMO, if you want to

be big, eat big. Thats eat big, not drink big.

Its not rocket science, put body under huge stress, body must adapt but needs extra nutrients or

will break down solid tissue. Easy

I've tried over the last year to be conservative with my food intake, have kept abs all year (till Xmas) but

have grown the least of any year, granted, there will be other factors but this is the main one.

Hence I'm increasing macros to a higher level and am positive I'll see more muscle growth this year than last,

plus I'm an old fvcker so hard to gain as is.


----------



## maxie (Jan 31, 2011)

ausbuilt said:


> excess cals are fat cals... AAS or not.. clean or not..
> 
> you can't flex fat... so I don't see the point of "eating your way up"..


So how do i increase muscular body weight? if i done eat more?surely i need to eat more to hold 110kg than 105kg.

When i ate my way up on doggcrapp training,following his plan to boost the metabolism it was not very nice facing all the food and sweating like a pig,but it worked for me.

http://www.professionalmuscle.com/forums/professional-muscle-forum/62679-i-absolutely-love-stuff-like-absolutely-love.html


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## Milky (Nov 30, 2008)

Just wanted to thank everyone for the great input into this thread, cheers people..


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

tel3563 said:


> Hmm, all respect to Aus but its one opinion amongst many, works for him but won't work for everybody.
> 
> The single biggest mistake a newby or novice makes in this game is not eating enough good food
> 
> ...


yep I agree.. all my posts are just my opinion based on what i read and what i've experienced, and of course this will continue to change- after all there was a time that tomatoes where considered aphrodisiacs and caffeine/coffee was a considered a poison..

I also agree about protein shakes- in fact i've posted quite a few times that whey protein is nothing special- it used to be thrown away as the remnants of cheese making!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whey_protein

look under production...

I do shoot for 500g protein, but i do eat 1.5-1.6kg of meat a day... that approx 375g-390g protein.. I physically can't fit more meat in a day.. so i do top up with a few shakes...

Old school BBs ate a lot of meat.. but still had a couple of shakes..

I do think that chicken and fish alone don't do what red meat does....

I also agree that solid nutrition is important, as i said, but at the end of day, doesn't matter the quality of the calorie- excess cals are stored as fat.. just basic metabolic process...


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

maxie said:


> So how do i increase muscular body weight? if i done eat more?surely i need to eat more to hold 110kg than 105kg.
> 
> When i ate my way up on doggcrapp training,following his plan to boost the metabolism it was not very nice facing all the food and sweating like a pig,but it worked for me.
> 
> http://www.professionalmuscle.com/forums/professional-muscle-forum/62679-i-absolutely-love-stuff-like-absolutely-love.html


well you referenced professional muscle forum- the mods usually delete my references to that forum- but its where i got my diet/training from that gave my best results

_ look at two articles/threads there- growth principles for beginners is the basic one...

You have to accept, that if it was simply an issue of training more/heavier and eating bigger/more (whether clean or not), no one would stuff around with AAS. At the end of thee day, natural progress cannot give signifivcant muscle size- AAS are required for a whole heap of reasons....

If eating for muscle works for you- how much muscle do you have? can you see it under the fat?? Don't mean it in a bad way... but rarely see natty BBs at comp level have anywhere near the muscle mass that AAS users carry..

I guess it depends on goals- whether mass at all costs is your goal, or quality muscle is your goal:

1 If natty- you can have quality muscle- just less of it

2. if on AAS- to much food will still make you fat..

either way, I don't think eating for mass gives much quality... mass yes...

some people are mass at all costs... some arent- I'm def the latter- its a personal choice (not related to AAS- thats just an issue of how much quality muscle you carry)


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## weeman (Sep 6, 2007)

maxie said:


> Why do a lot of lads put no size on after years of bodbuilding?years of undereating!
> 
> If youve got a lot of juice going in you can maybe get away with it,if not youve got to eat your way up.
> 
> ...


oh dear god.....

you can only build muscle so fast,so wether you take 500kcal or 1000kcal extra a day,its not gnr help you get your goal any faster,unless you suddenly equate a scale weight to the amount of muscle gained,which is silly.

last year i hit 245lbs at 5'9" with abs showing,i am not super clean in my diet but common sense tells you when to reel things in,yes you need to eat but its still all relevant.



cas said:


> some one better tell lee to slow down a little


Lee himself has said many times since that pic was taken it was purposefully made to look that ay,he hadnt shaved,binged for fortnight,bloated his stomachout to look worse than what it was,it was all part of the marketing,there are shots of him 2 weeks after that pic was taken and the difference was already dramatic,abs coming out etc due to him not composing himself like a fat fuk and cleaning the diet for just two weeks at that point.

yet still people keep on using this pic etc lol



kingdale said:


> not read all the comments but i think most people dont start off toned so just to get to the point of starting a lean bulk would take a while. and i think overall you will gain more muscle bulking rather than lean bulk. as you maybe eating less and not gaining as much muscle as possible. this is more aimed at begginners as most of them wont know how much calories is best for lean bulk and would be better off over eating and losing the fat later


omg,in what way does it take a long time to get to a lean 'bulk'??is there a certain point you must reach before you are allowed to? :lol:

and wtf do people have to still keep on calling it a lean bulk?!?!?!? its called eating like a bodybuilder you plumbs!



geeby112 said:


> I never got this theory for normal gym goers. Some people look like they on constant bulk. I prefer to gain while staying lean, takes longer but A 10lb gain on a lean body looks huge.


IT DOESNT TAKE LONGER!!!!

jesus,it will still take the same amount of time to build ten lean lbs of tissue wether you put 10lbs of fat on with it or not,yes it takes longer to see a SCALE WEIGHT change of 10lbs,but it doesnt take any longer to build the muscle.


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## banjodeano (Jan 9, 2011)

I was once to told you cant build muscle and lose fat at the same time,,,i have always found it hard to believe...was i told wrong.?


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## Milky (Nov 30, 2008)

banjodeano said:


> I was once to told you cant build muscle and lose fat at the same time,,,i have always found it hard to believe...was i told wrong.?


Yes you were told wrong, the mere fact you are exercising means you will do both..


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## weeman (Sep 6, 2007)

tel3563 said:


> Hmm, all respect to Aus but its one opinion amongst many, works for him but won't work for everybody.
> 
> The single biggest mistake a newby or novice makes in this game is not eating enough good food
> 
> ...


with all due respect tel you cant actually 100% say wether you gained more or less than the year before unless you came down to the same bodyfat levels at a set point at the end of both years,its the only really true way to be able to tell if you gained more or less muscle,also factor in as you said you are older so therefor every year that passes your ability to gain is depreciating and factor in again that the bigger we all get the slower we tend to gain.

Also the old shakes thing can be disproven till the cows come home,the only additional benefit i have ever seen to consuming more solid food is it gives a slightly harder look to the physique,at the end of the day if your taking the macros in be it in liquid form or solid,your still taking them in,if you were to blend and drink every meal that you ate would it then suddnely not count the same because you have liquidised it and sped up the process of digestion by that action alone for your body?

I've used myself and rams before as perfect examples of shakes taking up most of your diet can work perfectly well,dont think anyone can really argue that point considering how we look,have also posted the pic up of my mate who is a nabba pro stands at 5'10" competes at about 240lbs and his diet he admits is about 70% shakes.

The shake debate could run forever,bottom line is it works,common sense tells you this,take the macros in be it via shake or solild,you will grow.



IronDan said:


> Would you do this on above or below maint cals to get the body recomp?


neither,i dont ever work in calories,i adjust macros,train hard,rest well,assess as i go,kcals largely mean nowt.


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## weeman (Sep 6, 2007)

IronDan said:


> Just checking if I'm am understanding right, you target to hit so many grams of prot/carbs/fats instead of an actual number cals?
> 
> Do you have a way to workout what your macs should be?


trial and error mate,i work my protein out based on lean lbs bodyweight as i know pretty much what it is year on year due to dieting down to single figures for stage,so i do basically 1.8g per lb of lean bodyweight and thats my prot,istick an extra 20-30g on top of that at the beginning of diets or during the offseason as that would equate to roughly another ten to 14lbs of muscle in the long run,it will remain there year long until i have started a prep and gotten to a point of said prep where i can get a better idea of what my next lean bodyweight number will be as i come down in bodyfat.

Carbs i have learned that if i go circa 400+ i tend to start getting a little softer so stay around the 400 mark or slightly under,fats are prob circa 150g a day but its not something i start counting until prepping for a show.

Doing this i am able to gain consistently year in year out,keep abs and not look like a bloater 

When i was 23 years old i hit 245 and had 20" arms,i also had a 40" waist and looked a fat mess as i was caught up in the bulk cut trend (yeah i never cut either pmsl) then in 2006 i started competing in bbing comps,i went from 245 down to 185,thats how much fkn sh1t i was carrying,now when i hit 245 last year i had 20" arms and a 34" waist,abs and split peak bi's,seperation all over body,i looked twice the size of my old 245


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## Dux (Nov 29, 2011)

It always seems to me that when I'm hitting my macros 400:150:100 (generally) my calorie count tends to be within the same range, give or take 200-300.


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## maxie (Jan 31, 2011)

Fcuk it im outta this thread seems im talking total ****e! and just digging myself deeper into it

All the best whichever way you go about it and a happy new year.

Ps if i make any stupid posts later please ignore them as ill be pished :beer:


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## Nemises (Jun 29, 2008)

Haven't most big guys done a the dirty bulk and cut at sum stage.?


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## Dux (Nov 29, 2011)

Nemises said:


> Haven't most big guys done a the dirty bulk and cut at sum stage.?


Yeah, because that was, and still is I suppose, the accepted way to put size on.

Up until joining up here, it's what I was planning on doing, to a degree.

Instead I'm just upping my diet slightly.


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## Milky (Nov 30, 2008)

weeman said:


> trial and error mate,i work my protein out based on lean lbs bodyweight as i know pretty much what it is year on year due to dieting down to single figures for stage,so i do basically 1.8g per lb of lean bodyweight and thats my prot,istick an extra 20-30g on top of that at the beginning of diets or during the offseason as that would equate to roughly another ten to 14lbs of muscle in the long run,it will remain there year long until i have started a prep and gotten to a point of said prep where i can get a better idea of what my next lean bodyweight number will be as i come down in bodyfat.
> 
> Carbs i have learned that if i go circa 400+ i tend to start getting a little softer so stay around the 400 mark or slightly under,fats are prob circa 150g a day but its not something i start counting until prepping for a show.
> 
> ...


Fu*king good post again Bri, cant rep you tho mate l'm all outta love...


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## Dux (Nov 29, 2011)

I'm sat here eating nuts to try and get my fats in, and I'm not even remotely hungry, I've just polished off 3 chicken breasts.

Christ knows what I'd do if I was "bulking"


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## Milky (Nov 30, 2008)

Dux said:


> I'm sat here eating nuts to try and get my fats in, and I'm not even remotely hungry, I've just polished off 3 chicken breasts.
> 
> Christ knows what I'd do if I was "bulking"


Tel me about it, l struggle on a daily basis to eat enough mate.


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## mikep81 (Oct 8, 2010)

There some great info in this thread.


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## musio (Jan 25, 2008)

weeman said:


> Also the old shakes thing can be disproven till the cows come home,the only additional benefit i have ever seen to consuming more solid food is it gives a slightly harder look to the physique,at the end of the day if your taking the macros in be it in liquid form or solid,your still taking them in,if you were to blend and drink every meal that you ate would it then suddnely not count the same because you have liquidised it and sped up the process of digestion by that action alone for your body?
> 
> I've used myself and rams before as perfect examples of shakes taking up most of your diet can work perfectly well,dont think anyone can really argue that point considering how we look,have also posted the pic up of my mate who is a nabba pro stands at 5'10" competes at about 240lbs and his diet he admits is about 70% shakes.
> 
> ...


Just wanted to say I agree. I know this digressed, but this is a really good thread http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/general-conversation/137329-why-eat-real-food-3.html

I agree in that the body doesn't understand food - it understands nutrients. Blend your roast dinner, blend a shake. Saying that, i like a lot of food and think it best to eat much as you can!

Back to bulking and cutting.. let's talk about cutting without AAS - how effective is this or do you guys believe that AAS is fundamental to not loosing muscle? As i understand when dieting without AAS (naturally) the body likes to burn muscle BEFORE fat? This is sad stuff


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## weeman (Sep 6, 2007)

aas will make a huge difference to how much muscle is held onto when dieting for shows,as for the 'bodyrecomping' effect whilst building tissue and losing fat yes its still very possible whilst natty,just as has been said a few times already with anything natty it will take a longer time to achieve the same effect.


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## TH0R (Aug 15, 2007)

weeman said:


> *with all due respect tel you cant actually 100% say wether you gained more or less than the year before unless you came down to the same bodyfat levels at a set point at the end of both years*,its the only really true way to be able to tell if you gained more or less muscle,also factor in as you said you are older so therefor every year that passes your ability to gain is depreciating and factor in again that the bigger we all get the slower we tend to gain.
> 
> *Which tbf I did Bri*
> 
> ...


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## weeman (Sep 6, 2007)

good post matey 

defo think there is something in your comment about mature muscle being more receptive etc,certainly the case as years go by when i go thru a lull i dont need to eat anything like the amount i did previously to get back to where i was/looked like before.


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## 36-26 (Jun 30, 2009)

ausbuilt said:


> man speaks much sense.... in fact I'll put some easy to follow numbers around it to demonstrate:
> 
> 1. 1kg of muscle= 250g protein (roughly 25% protein like steak, the rest is water).
> 
> ...


I'm not saying you are wrong but I always thought to gain 1kg you needed 7700 extra cals approx, and you are theoretically saying that an extra 2200 cals a week could gain 1kg of muscle. I just don't get it, surely 1 gram of protein can't be converted to 1 gram of lean tissue so easily. If it takes 7700 cals to gain 1kg thats 1925 grams of protein or 1.9g of protein to 1 gram of muscle, or am I completely wrong?

I'm confused... Or is it just 7700cals to 1kg of fat???


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