# understanding how muscle actually grows



## swine321 (Jun 17, 2012)

so i wanted to write this thread to, if i could fully understand the science behind how muscles grow - i think we all know its weight training plus calorie surplus. but surely there has to be much more to it! im curious to know as it may open up new doors to understanding the process.

if i eat a surplus on the days i train (mon back chest, wed legs, fri arms shoulders) then have a deficit on days off, will that still build muscle - ive heard its what you eat after a workout that builds the muscles so the next day wont really matter right as its the previous day were you have been exhausting, and tearing those muscles that you have then ate your calories to prepare and then rebuild them bigger/stronger. so the following day -will it matter? being you still have high protein? (1.5g x bodyweight and same as carbs)


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## NorthernSoul (Nov 7, 2011)

I always think, if my chest is still hurting on wednesday from a monday session then what i eat keeps it growing. On the friday when my chest doesnt hurt i just think im eating to maintain the size of the muscle on my chest. but my chest is **** so it doesnt count for me  lol


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## swine321 (Jun 17, 2012)

but if we eat our surplus on the days we train hard - extra carbs and 1g per pound of bodyweight for protein that extra calories will go to rebuilding muscles bigger, then that night when you sleep the process is taking place, you then wake up the next day and stick with the protein intake to maintain the muscle (which as you know is the building block for muscle) and have a calorie deficit, high fat intake for growth hormone responses then repeat the process the next day.

i dont know if im being niave but i think i have a point here or not


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## Captain-splooge (May 29, 2011)

your body is still working to repair the damage the next day though, so diet has to be 100 percent every day. training the other 100 percent


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## swine321 (Jun 17, 2012)

what i am alluding to is carb cycling. so you think i should stay on a surplus everyday then?


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## Andy 67 (May 2, 2012)

You grow in the 24 - 36 hours immediately after a muscle is trained. It therefore makes sense to ensure that you are consuming a significant calorie surplus for at least the 24 hours straight after training.

I've recently switched back to 3 day a week, full body workouts. In the 24 hours after training, I try to get around 20% above maintenance to make use of this, then drop it a little under for the next 24 hrs.

It's too early to tell if this is working yet, but it certainly feels good.


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## Andy 67 (May 2, 2012)

swine321 said:


> i dont know if im being niave but i think i have a point here or not


It makes sense - theoretically at least. It's the rationale behind the way that I'm currently eating.

In practice, I think it can only be made to work of you are training 3 or 4 days a week & doing either full body workouts or a 2 way split. It would probably not work so well if you train frequently, hitting one or two bodyparts a day.


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## User Name (Aug 19, 2012)

Interesting. I was thinking about a similar thing recently - say if body parts need anything from 24-72 hours to recover and repair, then what is all this "you must take protein within 30 mins of your workout" business that is generally banded about by all and sundry (especially the 'supplements industry')? As if the repairing is done over 1-3 days then as long as you eat well during that time then it shouldn't matter so much if you get fed immediately after your workout, should it?


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## swine321 (Jun 17, 2012)

Well I train 3 times a week Mon back and chest, weds legs and Fri arms and shoulders as I've stated previously, so even though im not training the next day I should still have a surplus to aid recovery? Or like you say its the 24-36 hours post training that builds the muscle, so i could in theory time my deficit to happen 24-36 hours post training - i could train at 12 noon then start a deficit 12 noon the next day, this seems hard to do, so you eat say 2800 cals of a 3300 calorie surplus diet post workout, then eat the remaining cals the next day before you start ur deficit, as you obviously sleep 8 hours that night; is this what you do? My problem though is, I train my legs on a Wednesday, but because im on a surplus i really dont wanna add muscle to my legs i do want to tone them though, any ideas on what i could do?.


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## 1010AD (May 30, 2009)

In simple terms you put stress on the muscle fibre causing the fibre to break then give it the nutrients it needs to repair that fibre which will result in the muscle fibre getting bigger and stronger


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## Riggerz (May 28, 2011)

User Name said:


> Interesting. I was thinking about a similar thing recently - say if body parts need anything from 24-72 hours to recover and repair, then what is all this "you must take protein within 30 mins of your workout" business that is generally banded about by all and sundry (especially the 'supplements industry')? As if the repairing is done over 1-3 days then as long as you eat well during that time then it shouldn't matter so much if you get fed immediately after your workout, should it?


When you work out your muscles use up your carb/glycogen stores etc and are literally starved of nutrients. They become like sponges straight after a workout, thus creating a window of opportunity and an ideal anabolic environment to saturate them with proteins and carbs and kick start the recovery cycle. The muscles will utilise the PWO carbs and protein with very little if any being stored as excess. Having some simple carbohydrates (Glucose, dextrose etc.. Haribo are my favourite at the minute) straight after training will also give you an insulin spike, which will assist in your body being able to transport the protein to the starved muscles.

Obviously this only provides your muscles with the nutrients immediately after workout and the recovery cycle is much longer than the 30 - 60 minute window, which is why you would continue to have your high protein/carb diet to make sure your muscles get what they need in the hours and days to come. It's just that right after workout your muscles are desperate to be replenished, by delaying the PWO nutrients you are delaying the recovery.

I train 5-6 times a week, which means my body is in a permanent state of recovery so my diet is the same everyday of the week... plenty protein, plenty carbs and plenty unsaturated fats. Try not to overcomplicate things, if you're working out you need to put into your body enough of what it needs to recover. If you don't your muscles won't repair and/or grow. Unless you are on a severe cutting diet don't be afraid of carbs either, yes low-carb diets provide fat loss.. but don't forget, your muscles need carbs too to keep them going (and growing). Even when dieting I still try to maintain a relatively high carb intake.

Hope this helps


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## swine321 (Jun 17, 2012)

What about if you ideally dont want to put muscle on the legs but rather have them cut and toned how would a surplus come into play then? Would you just use higher rep ranges like 15-20 or what. As im currently doing a surplus but I dont wanna add muscle to the legs also can there be a days or days where you have a deficit like at the weekend or what?


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## Riggerz (May 28, 2011)

My personal view on this would be to adjust your training, i.e higher reps lighter weight as you suggested, not your diet. For instance if you have a 'deficit' of any kind you may be affecting the recovery of other muscles, not just your legs. As mentioned above your muscles recover over a period of days, so say for instance you train Biceps on Monday then Legs on Wednesday and on that Wednesday you have a 'deficit' you may be restricting the recovery of you're arms... not just your legs. Does that make sense?


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## Jacobs64 (Dec 10, 2011)

Riggerz said:


> My personal view on this would be to adjust your training, i.e higher reps lighter weight as you suggested, not your diet. For instance if you have a 'deficit' of any kind you may be affecting the recovery of other muscles, not just your legs. As mentioned above your muscles recover over a period of days, so say for instance you train Biceps on Monday then Legs on Wednesday and on that Wednesday you have a 'deficit' you may be restricting the recovery of you're arms... not just your legs. Does that make sense?


So what do you think these "higher reps" are going to do in terms of getting his legs ripped (fat loss), if he isn't eating a deficit? You sort of contradicted yourself there.


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## Riggerz (May 28, 2011)

I didn't say he will get ripped legs by doing higher reps.. he said he didn't want to put any more size on his legs... hence higher reps lighter weight would most likely 'prevent' him putting size on but still keep them in good order. I am well aware of how to lose fat and the key part to this being diet. If the OP's aim is to lose fat, get ripped and have minimal muscle growth then a calorific deficit is indeed what he needs (along with cardio etc), as a bodybuilder would do in prep for a contest .. I may have read the post wrong in thinking the OP still wants gains elsewhere other than his legs. Only giving my 2 pence worth


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## swine321 (Jun 17, 2012)

Jacobs64 said:


> So what do you think these "higher reps" are going to do in terms of getting his legs ripped (fat loss), if he isn't eating a deficit? You sort of contradicted yourself there.


so i could train monday back and chest, tuesday off but keep the calorie surplus on the tuesday to help chest and back recovery, then on wednesday i could turn to a deficit for legs as the monday and tuesday would have been sufficient time to recover and build my chest and back. then turn back to a surplus on the thurday and friday. ???


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## swine321 (Jun 17, 2012)

Yes my op was meant for muscle gain everywhere else chest, back arms shoulders but not legs - id.rather them be toned and ripped then muscular, i am aware that a deficit diet is indeed the way to go in order to achieve this but as im bulking and i dont wanna neglect my legs im just thinking of a way to still train them but not put on any muscle just tone them up, then say 6 months down the line i can then cut and reveal my toned legs.


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## Robbie789 (Sep 6, 2012)

Millions of guys train legs hard every week and still don't see the gains they want, so imo, by squatting and doing a little calf work once a week, I don't think you're going to add so much muscle to your legs that you don't like the way you look, and if you do, then just stop training legs for a while!

Remember 'spot reduction' is a myth, the best way to tone up is by adding muscle and loosing weight, train legs each week until it comes to your cut, then do a lot of high incline walking on the treadmill/cross trainer, this should help gain/keep the muscle on your legs while getting in plenty of needed cardio.


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## Riggerz (May 28, 2011)

For most people legs are generally the last part of the body to appear 'ripped', especially the hamstrings. If you are on a bulk, you will struggle to hold visible condition in your legs until you diet down properly. If you are lucky enough to have well developed legs, then what I would suggest is training them lighter or maybe less frequently than the rest of your body. Training this way will limit the growth but keep them developed enough to look muscular when cut. That being said, training your legs (biggest muscles in your anatomy) will increase the release of growth hormone, which will in turn aid the development of the rest of your body. So it's a catch 22 situation really but give it time and see what works best for you.. everybody's different and everybody reacts differently to training and diet.

Use the calorie/carb deficit to lose fat when dieting, not when trying to gain mass... nobody can say for sure when your body will use the food that you ingest so rather than risk your other body parts being deprived get them fed! Eating a deficit on legs day for instance may not prevent the growth of *just* your legs.

Natural bodybuilding takes time, give your body enough time to develop then diet down to see the gains. Trying to get big and ripped at the same time can sometimes be disheartening as the progress seems slow, but keep plugging away and you'll be surprised with the progress. You don't need to get fat to gain muscle (been there and done it) but what you do need is the calories and good diet, which generally means a dip in conditioning for a while.

Good luck!


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## swine321 (Jun 17, 2012)

Yeah well im around 13% body fat and I've always been blessed with a nice shaped chest regardless of working out or not, id say its my best body feature, im just guunna bulk until after Christmas then see what I've achieved. I hear this alot 'eat alot but not enough for ur body to gain/hold fat. What does this mean? Like im consuming around 270 grams carbs a day and around 210 protein with 70g fat adds up to about 3200 caps for a 180 pounded (me), i guess the carbs are the thing you need to get right ain't they, which is why i should be consuming i think 300 carbs but I've gone for less carbs and a bit more fat, see how it goes.


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## Robbie789 (Sep 6, 2012)

swine321 said:


> Yeah well im around 13% body fat and I've always been blessed with a nice shaped chest regardless of working out or not, id say its my best body feature, im just guunna bulk until after Christmas then see what I've achieved. I hear this alot 'eat alot but not enough for ur body to gain/hold fat. What does this mean? Like im consuming around 270 grams carbs a day and around 210 protein with 70g fat adds up to about 3200 caps for a 180 pounded (me), i guess the carbs are the thing you need to get right ain't they, which is why i should be consuming i think 300 carbs but I've gone for less carbs and a bit more fat, see how it goes.


You need to work out your daily calorie maintenance, an easy way, is to times your body weight (lbs) by between 14-18 depending on how active and old you are. I work behind a desk all day, but am only 20, so for me it's 174lbs x15 = 2610, so that means if I eat that many kcals a day, I will maintain my weight.

If I wanted to slowly lose weight while keeping muscle, I would eat 250 calories less then maintenance a day and do about 200 calories worth of cardio.

If I wanted to gain muscle without gaining to much fat, I would eat between 250-500 calories over maintenance. It's said that anything over 500 calories of maintenance will turn straight to fat.

Remember, as your weight goes up, so will your maintenance level, so making sure your diet is spot on is very important if you wanna keep gaining muscle, but don't want to much fat.


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## Riggerz (May 28, 2011)

swine321 said:


> I hear this alot 'eat alot but not enough for ur body to gain/hold fat'. What does this mean?


Without going into too much detail... during a normal day when resting and doing your normal daily routines your body has certain rates at which it burns calories, this rate will increase during exercise (i.e. you will burn more calories, which makes sense). So for instance on a training day your body may burn a total of 2600 cals. If on that day you consume 2600 cals then your body has used exactly what's been put in. When training to gain mass your body needs extra calories to help build and repair the muscle, so by consuming 2800 - 2900 you will be giving your body those extra cals to help you grow. *BUT* if you consumed 3500 cals when your body only needed 2900 to build muscle then you an excess of 600 cals, which your body is unable to burn and will kindly store as fat. You've got to get the balance right.. i.e. eat enough to enable your muscles to grow... but not too much that you will have too much excess.

This is just a simple overview and the numbers are just to give you a representation, everybody has different rates which are variable in themselves depending on various factors such as bodyfat etc.

(The above example can also be applied to losing body fat. If your body needs 2800 cals in a particular day and you eat less (2600) your body will turn to the next available source of energy, which you would hope to be your body fat!)


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## swine321 (Jun 17, 2012)

Ok so I've done my calculations and I need around 2800 to gain, I was previously taking in 3,200 so now I should gain mainly muscle and no fat.

I think I will train my legs with rep ranges of 15-20; although this may be downhearting in a way as I will not see any changes in soze or shape but it will be worth it when I do cut up next year to reveal ripped up body and legs.

Most guys I see have the light bulb effect - they have huge upper body (not necessarily muscular looking either just bulky and abit fat) and then have the chicken legs. Looks so odd, I think each part should be proportionate to the rest. I wanna avoid this


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## DigIt (Jun 20, 2012)

Riggerz are you able to explain how people can adapt to gain more muscle without the 'right' diet?

As in people who have a love for a sport or activity and do not pay attention to their nutrition, yet have amazing strength features


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## Riggerz (May 28, 2011)

DigBick said:


> Riggerz are you able to explain how people can adapt to gain more muscle without the 'right' diet?
> 
> As in people who have a love for a sport or activity and do not pay attention to their nutrition, yet have amazing strength features


It's a tough one.. genetics plays a huge part I guess, which unfortunately you can't change. What you can do though is make the best of what you've got.. experiment with training and diet and stick to what works for you.

Some people can do very little training and eat what they feel like, yet get big and strong and stay shredded all year round.. naturally blessed cnuts! There are people out there though that may give this impression but will be 'assisted', which is choice for them.

One way to give yourself a bit more freedom in the kitchen is to intensify your training, add cardio if it's absent from your routine.. HIIT works great to retain strength/size gains but will also shred the fat, burn calories and allow you to eat a little more of the wrong foods if that's what you want.

The unfortunate bottom line is that for most of us, having the 'right' diet is a necessity to get the desired gains and natural bodybuilding can be an absolute pain in the **** in that respect. I often find myself questioning my 'hobby' choice when I'm stood in the kitchen at 5:30 am cooking my day's worth of chicken, rice and veg before I put in a 10 hour shift at work.. but I'd be absolutely kidding myself if I said I could give it up!!


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