# Gaining Weight on Salad!!!!



## river (Mar 26, 2005)

Hi all, I'm in a bit of a mix.

I've got 2 goals which conflict big time!

(1) To build up my chest, shoulders and arms eating lots, and training hard.

(2) To improve my healthy nutritious vegetarian diet, moving towards a raw food diet.

I have read and read, tried various things, different plans but really can't get these two goals to co-exist! I'm really am trying hard, but can't seem to eat enough -quality- foods. I don't want to compromise my diet for the muscle, and vice-versa.

Has anyone actually managed to do this? or has anyone got any advice that may help me out?

Cheers guys, I know it may sound mad, but It's something I need to make work.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Well, I honestly dont believe a vegetarian diet is healthy.

There are defficencies in a vegetarian diet that other diets dont have.

Like for example defficencies in creatine, B-12 and other vitamins.

The only sources for B-12 is in animal products.

I would speculate that creatine by itself would be one big bummer, but that you can supplement.

B-12 can be taken orally or with injection.

I think the biggest challenge would be to find protein sources that would be complete.

Can you eat eggs, or fish?


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## thestudbeast (Jul 20, 2007)

If I where you I'd go speak to Johnathon, he's a mod on the myprotein forum. He's a vegan and huge. I think I read he eat's over 6000 cals a day........ from a vegan diet.

Hacks has pointed out the difficulties, it can be done but will take much more planning on your part.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Stu, is Johathon natural?

As Stu said, the defficencies are well known with vegetarian diets, it can be done, me peronally feel they are less healthy, but they can be done and I do have a vegetarian friend that takes in very little protein and is totally shreaded and looks great.

He says he is natural but he is very impressive looking and very strong.


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## thestudbeast (Jul 20, 2007)

I beleive he's natural. He uses pea protein powder and blends it with other stuff. I didn't pay so much notice to his protein sources because mine are so much better  . I think he posts on a vegan bodybuilding forum so there is the info out there but us meat eaters are probably not the best resource.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Oh yah, I got ya.

I was a bit curious if he used soy.

then the questions were gonna fly, some like soy being a phytoestrogen


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## thestudbeast (Jul 20, 2007)

hackskii said:


> Oh yah, I got ya.
> 
> I was a bit curious if he used soy.
> 
> then the questions were gonna fly, some like soy being a phytoestrogen


Ye aload of unfermented soy in your diet would not be good. A little fermented soy on the other hand is a different issue.


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## thestudbeast (Jul 20, 2007)

Ok here's his diet......... does have alot of soy  , amazed he has any test production at all. Still the body will readjust given time in most cases.

I posted this on another forum about a month back for the benefit of a guy who had just gone vegan. It is still pretty accurate now, as my diet does not change much.

Now this is only an average as I have no daily routine due to doing shift work (not nights though). I'll post it for a standard, non-training day.

*0900:* 100g oats, banana, 15g flax oil, water blended to fine consistancy (you need a decent blender to tackle oats). *600kcal*

*1030:* 400g organic soya fruit yoghurt/500g org (organic) plain soya yoghurt. *300kcal*

*1200:* Solid meal 1. This is generally left over food from last night or freshly cooked pasta with tomato sauce and tofu/tofu sausages. *800kcal*

*1300:* Protein smoothie. Banana, 30g pea protein, 15g org cocoa powder, 15g flax/rapeseed oil, 300ml org unsweetened soya milk. This is actually seriously tasty! *500kcal*

*1430:* Snack, along the lines of 100g mixed fruit and nuts, or chocolate and fruit juice. *500kcal*

*1630:* Shake, either protein (as above) if I am training, or oat (as first meal) if I am at work. *500kcal*

*1730:* Solid meal 2. Curry, quinoa with sauce, bangers and mash, stir fry, burgers etc. Anything really. This comes much later on a training day and is substituted with a pre-workout drink of dextrose and fruit juice, and post workout Alpro soya shakes. *1000kcal*

*1930:* Another soya yoghurt. *300kcal*

*2100:* Solid meal 3. Sandwiche - seitan slices (tastes like smoked turkey I have been told) on org olive sourdough bread. *500kcal*

*2300:* Protein shake (if I have to get up early), oat shake (if I don't) *500kcal*

*Sub-total - 5500kcal*

On top of that I get a few glasses of fruit juice/alpro shakes, that bump it up to around 5800kcal. You can clearly see that I don't eat that much solid food, but I used to have a retching disorder until last year, and I'm gradually moving back to more solids. I know that they are the key to uber calories, so that is what I am focusing on


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Wow, id like to comment on this tomorrow.

This is interesting big time to me...............

I don't stick to anyone thing, nor allow myself to hold fast to what I believe.

I like new things.

This just intregues me big time.

Until tomorrow............


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## cyberheater (Sep 22, 2007)

Well it's not surprising considering some of the biggest and strongest animals on earth derive all there nutrients from vegetable material.

Just look at the great apes.


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## TaintedSoul (May 16, 2007)

WOW.... he eats every 1 1/2 but I would like to see that listed with the protein intake per meal??

Anyone got pictures of this guy?


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## TaintedSoul (May 16, 2007)

cyberheater said:


> Well it's not surprising considering some of the biggest and strongest animals on earth derive all there nutrients from vegetable material.
> 
> Just look at the great apes.


makes you wonder huh? I was arguing protein with my brother once and he said "so why does a horse have so much muscle on it?" ... and I dont know?

I still havent found a decent patch of grass to graze on so I can test that theory!!


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## Jonathan (Nov 20, 2007)

Hi,

I was refered to this thread by thestudbeast (allthegoodnamesaregone, on myprotein).

Pretty funny that I am being referenced now on forums I have never even been to! I would consider myself a novice strength athlete (competing in strongman) - nothing more!

However, I do know a lot of vegan strongmen competing in the Scottish and British comps - I have competed against 6 different guys. The strongest of these is a chap called Ian Plews who trains at our gym. He has been vegan since May, and has made big improvements since then. He is 5ft 5", 107kg, and has competed at Scottish and UK level. In his last training session on Sunday, he clean and pressed 8x120kg, 15inch deadlifted 6x280kg and squatted 15x180kg.

Anyway, I would argue that a vegan diet holds absolutely no disadvantage to strength and muscle gaining. I have seen a good number of vegan lifters progress from modest beginnings to competing within a few short years. This is my first year of competing, and I have done 6 comps this year, placing 3rd twice, and 2nd in my last comp. I plan to undertake the qualifiers for Scotlands Strongest Man in February.

For the record, my stats are:

6ft 8"

130kg

23yrs old

185kg squat

140kg close grip bench

260kg deadlift

115kg clean and press

And a whole pile of strongman related stuff on top of that.

I am natural too 

Here is a video from my last competition:






Jonathan


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Jonathan said:


> Hi,
> 
> I was refered to this thread by thestudbeast (allthegoodnamesaregone, on myprotein).
> 
> ...


I like that video.


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## ParaManiac (Mar 20, 2007)

Hello Jonathan and welcome,impressive video!


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## river (Mar 26, 2005)

Thanks for the help guys, I really appreciate you taking the time to post.

I too am in the process of going vegan, and too be honest my diet is looking pretty much like that posted by studbeast, minus the protein shakes and I'm eating every 2hrs 30mins, so generally less food. I can definitely learn from some of the food ideas on the menu though.

Hearing from vegan muscle guys, has really given me the confidence I've needed to throw myself into this big-time, so appreciated guys.

I did have some concerns about the amount of soy I'm intaking, like plain organic tofu, organic unsweetened soy milk. Do I need to be aware of anything regarding this?

Also, 'org olive sourdough bread' I haven't come across this, I'm after something to replace tortilla wraps (as the chemicals in them are rubbish).

My experience of moving onto a veggy/vegan diet has been good, my digestion is getting better, and I feel more less podged in general at the same weight.

Great vid btw Jonathan.

Thanks again guys, river.


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## thestudbeast (Jul 20, 2007)

I'm sure Johnathon posts on a vegan bodybuilding board, so you could either ask him on the myprotein board, wait see if he replies here or I could PM him............. upto you mate.

The info is out there to make it work, it's just we really are not the people to ask  .


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## Gridlock1436114498 (Nov 11, 2004)

Good on you river,

Get yourself a copy of Raw Power By Stephen Arlin, he is a raw food vegan.

Also if you are looking into raw foodism you need a copy of the bible - David Wolfe's Sunfood success system.

I have been a raw vegan on and off for about the last 3 months. I am still in terrible shape from my previous lifestyle though so not a great example.

I tell you what though - I have never felt so alive as I do when I am 100% raw.

What I personally get from it

A huge boost in mental clarity and in my ability to focus/concentrate.

I need Less sleep- currently fine on about 5 hours a night

Lots of positive energy.

never get sick.

feel generally much happier and a calmer temperament

improved skin complexion

-weight loss

my eyesight improved, my night vision returned

My Sweat no longer smells, I don't need deodorant at all.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

One problem with soy products is this.

Soy is a pytoestrogen, yes it is a mild plant estrogen.

A doctor Shippen which is a TRT doctor in the States (one of the most famous), suggested that in men that have alot of bellyfat to use soy products.

His reason for this was quite insightful.

Due to the fact that the aromatase enzyme resides primarily in belly fat, there would be more arimitization for men that have more belly fat.

If that wasnt bad enough, estrogen is approx 200 times as supressive as testosterone.

The only way the body has to lower overall estrogen is to lower testosterone production.

That is not a good thing as lower testosterone can increase bodyfat which in turn can increase bellyfat, which in turn increases aromatase activity and you end up fatter with more estrogen.

Ok, now this is why Shippen suggests to use soy products for men that have belly fat.

When men take in soy, beings it is a mild plant estrogen it occupy's the estrogen receptor, something similar to nolva but on a diffrent scale.

Beings that soy is a very weak estrogen once in the receptor due to how weak it is there is little if any activity from the receptor, in essence it will block the effects of too much estrogen.

But in men that are very lean, soy is not recommended due to the lean guys having less aromitization activity.

You are in essence adding estrogen.

So, long story short, if you have alot of bellyfat then go for it, if you are lean then leave it alone.

Flax is another phytoestrogen as well.

Good news tho, Cruciferous Vegetables, have something in them called DIMM and this acts like an anti-estrogen binding to it.


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## Jonathan (Nov 20, 2007)

Whilst I accept your sitations of studies done by researchers etc are important to consider, the thing to remember is that there are studies done that represent both sides of the argument. Honestly, I am not that read up on these things, as veganism isn't something I actively think about, just something I do. All I can do is give you an example of a friend of mine called Alexander Dargatz, who won the NABBA fitness class world title in 2005, who eats a normal amount of soy for a vegan, and is obviously very lean:




























Sorry for the crappy little pictures - veganbodybuilding.com is down at the moment, which is where most of the images are.

Jonathan


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Oh, I do understand that many things in diet and lifestyle are at play here.

If you told me that those dudes ate soy for all their protein sources then I would be impressed.

Again with the use of Cruciferous Vegetables, there is a possibility that they have low estrogen to testosteron ratio or within normal base ranges.

Remember, Dr. Shippen deals with TRT men and most are middle age.

Yes I can see how my position might seem slanted.

Remember though, resistance training increases blood levels of testosterone and HGH depending on intensity, and even that could skew things.

One thing to remember here is these guys are at the top of their game, most people that go vegan will have some diffiencies, and to this I say supplement.

Defficencies are well known in the vegetarian culture.

My post was not to knock vegetarianism but to illuminate the possibility of deffeciancies and or the risk factors.

Id love to read all your stuff on this subject, I am a reader by nature and love to learn new things.

Those guys look awesome, and you have great strength.......

I am not bashing your guys lifestyle.......

Hell I need to bash my own lifestyle actually:eek:

Welcome to the board Jonathan.


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## Stanco (Jan 7, 2007)

Wow, thats awesome to see you can gain an impressive physique on a vegan diet.


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