# before and after pics



## warren (Jun 16, 2008)

hey guys here is some before and after pics what do you think? is there any progress? my famly and gf says im getting bigger and iv had a few random comments of mates, but they are alot nicer than you lot hahaha:laugh:, id rather know.

the first pics are oct, a week before i started my test e cycle at 250mg pw, the second are 13 weeks later so i have finished the test e 250 and for the 3 weeks after i have run 500mg test e +250mg tren e pw. the tren is just about kicking in now.

first pic i am -183lbs (on left )

second pics iam -191lbs ( on right)

so i am up 8lbs not sure on bf% though, all comments welcome!!














































i know the poses are not EACTLY the same but close enough ll


----------



## warren (Jun 16, 2008)

tried fafing on cant remove thatb botton attatchment, i will post up some pics of me this time lst year if i can find them


----------



## 54und3r5 (Apr 11, 2008)

Hey fella, you can see that your body has changed, but if i'm going to be perfectly honest, only a slight change. Maybe i'm being a bit naive but i would have thought you would have had bigger gains after 13 weeks??? How was your diet etc?? On the plus side though, you weigh more, your legs seem a lot bigger and youlook a similar bodyfat, possibly leaner...


----------



## Críostóir (Dec 12, 2009)

most notible changes are around the hips and ab area; still its only early days as it was only 3 weeks... but you were gear assisted so I would have expected somethin more. How was your diet and training programme... and why did you choose roids over bein natty?


----------



## warren (Jun 16, 2008)

thanks for the input guys, was a few problems in first 10 weeks mainly xmass and snow, which shut the gym for a bit. i did weigh a bit more on the 10th week but last 3 weeks i have ran t3 and clen to drop bf bit before the tren and test kick in. i was around 9lbs up on week 10 obv droped 1lbs now, but was told that ammount of weight in 10 weeks test cycle was good considering my bf% hasnt gone up, but i cant tell a difference.

i chose the aas route as i hae searched it alot fro a few years and felt like i have a good run at the oment with noting in the way. in feb i moved back to england from greece and was 10.5st.


----------



## warren (Jun 16, 2008)

to add, i was on lowish carbs igh fats to add mass with out water, chnged that around abit now with the tren test cmbo, on around 300 p 200 f 200c = 3800kcals


----------



## Guest (Feb 7, 2010)

Not a massive difference mate, tbh.


----------



## Big Dawg (Feb 24, 2008)

You looked to have dropped a bit of fat and gained a small amount of muscle but it isn't anything dramatic mate. Keep plodding on though, you'll get there


----------



## warren (Jun 16, 2008)

thanks for the comments,

im more looking to see if its what should be expected or if i should be looking much better by now lol. i know steroids arnt miricle workers there for i figured i should be happy with the fact my bf is down and my weight is up 8 lbs. and ike you say keep plodding on. but ifi im way of what results i should be getting then id rather know, i have started doing as we had discussed and up carbs by how im feeling/gaining/erformance etc . and all my main lifts are going up every week.


----------



## solidcecil (Mar 8, 2012)

well if your gaining you cant be complaining.


----------



## warren (Jun 16, 2008)

solidcecil said:


> well if your gaining you cant be complaining.


yeah i suppose, but im ust wondering if there should have been more gain and more visual differece.

on one hand if some one says id go up 8 lbs and my bf% would come down i would say yea please.

on the other hand - i have 4 fingers and a thumb, nah just messing. i cant see much in body comp change


----------



## warren (Jun 16, 2008)

bump for anymore opinions before bed lol ??


----------



## SK-XO (Aug 6, 2009)

http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/member-journals-pictures/86479-sk-xo-journal-getting-massive.html

Pics of my changes, vast amount of change. Over the period of a few years...


----------



## warren (Jun 16, 2008)

SK-XO said:


> http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/member-journals-pictures/86479-sk-xo-journal-getting-massive.html
> 
> Pics of my changes, vast amount of change. Over the period of a few years...


im more looking to see if my cycle change is average or not. or opinions on it .

thanks


----------



## SK-XO (Aug 6, 2009)

warren_1987 said:


> im more looking to see if my cycle change is average or not. or opinions on it .
> 
> thanks


aw yeah half asleep lol

and i'd agree with what alistair said.

Body fat looks slightly less, maybe some muscle added.


----------



## warren (Jun 16, 2008)

i have been eating like 4000kcals that cycle but maybee would have done better if i hadnt went of the rails at xmass. snw closed my gym for 2 weeks and i ate **** at xmass, so maybee i wil be posting better results after this current cycle.


----------



## SK-XO (Aug 6, 2009)

warren_1987 said:


> i have been eating like 4000kcals that cycle but maybee would have done better if i hadnt went of the rails at xmass. snw closed my gym for 2 weeks and i ate **** at xmass, so maybee i wil be posting better results after this current cycle.


I don't get it, 13 weeks on cycle, shouldn't you have gained a lot more?

Im not an expert on aas by all means just asking as I've got quite a few mates who go on and gain like 2-3 stone.


----------



## warren (Jun 16, 2008)

2-3 stone will be water and fat aswell, there is no way someone will gain even a stone of muscle in that period, but weight yes. my aim wasnt to get as big as possible but to drop bf a bit and gain some lean weight, which i did do but im unsure if it i should class it as a succsesfull cycle.

if i up my carbs for a week i can gain 5-7lbs n bother just of water, but i keep them to the nessacery to limit water/fat gain.

i suppose i am happy with weight going up and bf down but wondered if otheres thought i should have done better. maybee bit leaner it more weight etc.

i would never want to gain stones on cycle as it will be water and fat mainly

did they look leaner at all when they gained? interested to see ow other eople react.

its not so muc a 13 week cycle , but i did 250mg for 10 weeks then decided to use that as a cruise, and use 500mg +tren to blast.

opefuly i will lower bf a bit more and gain another 5-10lbs in weight


----------



## SK-XO (Aug 6, 2009)

Like I said im not an expert. But example one of my mates gained 3 stone? he went from 10 to 13, but he's really small like maybe 5ft 4? and fk me, very very ripped and lean and just massive in general.

Another mate went from 13 to 15, and still very lean imo. He ran test and dianabol not sure of the quantities.

Maybe they are doing something different I never really ask full details.


----------



## Iron Viking26 (Feb 8, 2010)

Yah dude, I wouldnt say much gain in size, but definately a noticeable toning up, as the other guys said I notice more around the shoulders and abs area.

And yah, would have expected more if your supplementing with the gear, but it's only 3 weeks as the others say.

Impatience for progression is always my biggest trip-hole.


----------



## warren (Jun 16, 2008)

SK-XO said:


> Like I said im not an expert. But example one of my mates gained 3 stone? he went from 10 to 13, but he's really small like maybe 5ft 4? and fk me, very very ripped and lean and just massive in general.
> 
> Another mate went from 13 to 15, and still very lean imo. He ran test and dianabol not sure of the quantities.
> 
> Maybe they are doing something different I never really ask full details.


could just be genetic freaks haha, i dont think i ave ever heard of anyone gaining that much weight and lean


----------



## SK-XO (Aug 6, 2009)

warren_1987 said:


> could just be genetic freaks haha, i dont think i ave ever heard of anyone gaining that much weight and lean


Well in saying that, the first one would live off red bulls, has the fastest metabolism, a don't give a fk attitude, fires in tons and tons of coke every weekend and takes constant t5's and ephedrine. Stayed absolutely ripped to shreds, but massive. Was ridiculous.


----------



## Brawlerboy (Jul 8, 2009)

To be frank, there's hardly any difference at all. Steroids only work on those who have been training for years, know exactly what they're doing exercise and diet wise (tons of people claim, but few people actually know), and who have reached the end of their natural ability to grow.

Looking at your pics, you don't look like you've been training for more than a couple of weeks to be fair.

If you seriously want to improve your physique and actually get somewhere, then you need to do the work and not rely on supposed quick-fixes to do it for you.

Finally, you probably won't like any of what I've said, but unless someone is prepared to be honest with you (you need to be honest with yourself), then you are just wasting your time.


----------



## Big Dawg (Feb 24, 2008)

I keep studying the pics and there's defo muscle added mate. My first cycle was more dramatic, but I gained lots of fat while you lost it, and I used more gear than you, so I wouldn't say mine was any more successful. Run this course and you should recomp some more, but after that I'd strip down to single digits mate and it should be a lot easier to pack on mass then, and you'll look a lot better


----------



## chrisj22 (Mar 22, 2006)

Out of interest, what is your training split, Warren?

Also, post an honest days typical eating.


----------



## sizar (Nov 13, 2008)

i would have thought you would see more changes .. on cycle of test e 500mg per week . my weight gone up from 10.12 to 12.8 and i'm on my 5th week .. i have added some body fat but nothing scary . stil in good condition.


----------



## warren (Jun 16, 2008)

thanks all for the input, ok

training split.

legs-

squats 4x10

leg ext 3x10

ham curl 3x10

caqlf raises 3x10

chest and tri-

decline db bench 4x10

dips -3x10

pull overs 3x10

cable cross overs 3x10

cgbp - 3x10

french press 3x10

back and bi -

wide grip pull ups 4x10

rev grip pull downs 3x10

lat pull vers 3x10

db rows 2x10

seated rows 2x10

curls 3x10

shoulders

bb soulder press 4x10

arnold press 3x10

upright rows 3x10

lateral raises 3x10

food has changed since first ten weeks but currently it is

meal 1 -4 weekabix 250ml milk, 25g mixed nuts, 50g sultanas,sake

meal 2 - pwo - shake

meal 3 - 300g taty, tin of tuna, 30g mayo

meal 4 - shake

meal 5- 300g meat, 50g cheese, 50g peanut butter

each shake is 1/3 of a arge shake mixture inc, 10 eggs, 500g milk, 90g protien powerd.

this comes to 300g protien 200g fat 200g carbs = 3800kcals

this was slightly different through the majority of the first 10 weeks, it was 270fats, 150carbs.

what d you guys think is reasonable then from a course, i thought lower bf and up 8 lbs would have been classed as good results, apparently not though.

sizar - the 10 week course was 250mg /pw not 500mg, i have upped it to 500mg now. but we will see what happens.


----------



## warren (Jun 16, 2008)

Brawlerboy said:


> To be frank, there's hardly any difference at all. Steroids only work on those who have been training for years, know exactly what they're doing exercise and diet wise (tons of people claim, but few people actually know), and who have reached the end of their natural ability to grow.
> 
> Looking at your pics, you don't look like you've been training for more than a couple of weeks to be fair.
> 
> ...


the first statemebt is exactly true mate is it? come on, t say they only work for people who have reached the atty ability is pants lol

but i do appreicate all comments. can i ust ask though what would you expect from a course?

i thought lower bf% and up 8 lbs would be good, if i didnt bother with keeping the fat and water down i could have hit 15 , wuld this have been a better course? if i had been 15lbs more but fatter and watery would that be better.

honestly not stroping lol i do appreiciate all opinions but think th eforst bit was niave.


----------



## warren (Jun 16, 2008)

AlasTTTair said:


> I keep studying the pics and there's defo muscle added mate. My first cycle was more dramatic, but I gained lots of fat while you lost it, and I used more gear than you, so I wouldn't say mine was any more successful. Run this course and you should recomp some more, but after that I'd strip down to single digits mate and it should be a lot easier to pack on mass then, and you'll look a lot better


would you cut straight after the cycle, ie while i was bridging? i am dropping the a cardio for this cycle and the clen and t3 have dropped. i am 13'10 this morning and slightly leaner than when i took latest pics ( 2 weeks agoish )

would fin this cycle off then add am cardio and a keto diet for my bridging part, lower the bf than back on a heavier cycle?

i suppose although not a vast change in pics i am getting there slowly, im now 13'10 and leaner than when i was 13'1 3 months ago, cant really complain i didnt expect them to be miricle workers but thought id look more diff


----------



## Big Dawg (Feb 24, 2008)

warren_1987 said:


> the first statemebt is exactly true mate is it? come on, t say they only work for people who have reached the atty ability is pants lol
> 
> but i do appreicate all comments. can i ust ask though what would you expect from a course?
> 
> ...


If it was only 10 weeks of 250mg PW mate then nothing too drastic can be expected anyway. On a cycle of 500mg PW you could probably expect to gain maybe 6lbs of MUSCLE if it's your first cycle, but quantifying it seems largely pointless as has been established. People talk about weight gained all the time but it means fcuk all - all that's important is the net muscle gained. So you could gain say 10lbs keeping your body fat the same; 6lbs could be muscle tissue and 4lbs could be water retention within the muscle. Similarly the same guy could gain 20lbs for that cycle with the same amount of muscle and water, but another 10lbs of fat added. So you see it's largely pointless quantifying it.

Your gains have been fine considering the low dosage. What are you running now, 600/300 test/tren? That should give you some very nice gains as long as the diet's on point. Yours looks reasonable but I'd like to see macro breakdowns. Like I say though, after this I'd cut down very lean and get a good rebound if you want to see some really good gains


----------



## warren (Jun 16, 2008)

thanks for the input mate, i have been on 500mg test and 250mg tren to see te sides but im on 4th jab today and uping it slightly. ill try find a macro break down somewhere.


----------



## Big Dawg (Feb 24, 2008)

warren_1987 said:


> would you cut straight after the cycle, ie while i was bridging? i am dropping the a cardio for this cycle and the clen and t3 have dropped. i am 13'10 this morning and slightly leaner than when i took latest pics ( 2 weeks agoish )
> 
> would fin this cycle off then add am cardio and a keto diet for my bridging part, lower the bf than back on a heavier cycle?
> 
> i suppose although not a vast change in pics i am getting there slowly, im now 13'10 and leaner than when i was 13'1 3 months ago, cant really complain i didnt expect them to be miricle workers but thought id look more diff


In answer to this, I would run the test and tren until the gains stop, then cruise for half the amount of time you've been on a high dose at least (so if you've been on a high dose for 12 weeks I'd cruise for at least 6). Keep cals at the same level and keep training hard and you'll still be able to build a bit of mass here and of course maintain what you have. Then I'd personally get back on the test and tren, diet down to single digit body fat, then maintain sub-12% bf while gaining lean mass if at all possible. This way you'll gain better off the rebound and you won't constantly be trying to do 2 things at once.


----------



## weeman (Sep 6, 2007)

Brawlerboy said:


> To be frank, there's hardly any difference at all. *Steroids only work on those who have been training for years, know exactly what they're doing exercise and diet wise (tons of people claim, but few people actually know), and who have reached the end of their natural ability to grow.*
> 
> *
> *
> ...


sorry mate but that boldened part is nonsense,my mrs has barely trained a day in her life,is on 150mg dec every 10 days and has put 11lbs on and gotten leaner,untrained,thats just one example.


----------



## Big Dawg (Feb 24, 2008)

weeman said:


> sorry mate but that boldened part is nonsense,my mrs has barely trained a day in her life,is on 150mg dec every 10 days and has put 11lbs on and gotten leaner,untrained,thats just one example.


I'll add to that that I was nowhere near my mystical "natural limit" before I started gear and I grew fine!


----------



## sizar (Nov 13, 2008)

weeman said:


> *sorry mate but that boldened part is nonsense,my mrs has barely trained a day in her life,is on 150mg dec every 10 days and has put 11lbs on and gotten leaner,untrained,thats just one example.*


you killed it lol .. steriod does work .. i don't no what's that dude on about.


----------



## TaintedSoul (May 16, 2007)

Brawlerboy said:


> To be frank, there's hardly any difference at all. *Steroids only work on those who have been training for years, know exactly what they're doing exercise and diet wise (tons of people claim, but few people actually know), and who have reached the end of their natural ability to grow.*


This couldnt be further from the truth. Like saying NOS only works in cars that have been completley tuned to the max!! Come on.

I never reached my natural ablity when I started and I grew like a fvcking weed on each course. All I knew I had to eat was protein, everything else was hit n miss.


----------



## sizar (Nov 13, 2008)

but the bit about diet and excerice bit is true you need to have a good diet and know how to stimulate muscle growth by battering the muscle hard.


----------



## TaintedSoul (May 16, 2007)

sizar said:


> but the bit about diet and excerice bit is true you need to have a good diet and know how to stimulate muscle growth by battering the muscle hard.


Correct. if you want to get the most out of it.


----------



## BillC (Jun 11, 2009)

Grew like a beast when younger on sus/deca. Scary as my diet was ****. I do think a lot of people do jump on too early though as training off cycle is where the skill comes in. I mean going on gear at 10 stone?? Surely get some meat on your bones to save money if nothing else. If we all waited for our natty limits though, we'd all have trained for at least 10 years before using.


----------



## warren (Jun 16, 2008)

BillC said:


> Grew like a beast when younger on sus/deca. Scary as my diet was ****. I do think a lot of people do jump on too early though as training off cycle is where the skill comes in. *I mean going on gear at 10 stone??* Surely get some meat on your bones to save money if nothing else. If we all waited for our natty limits though, we'd all have trained for at least 10 years before using.


i dont know if you were just saying if people do ...

or if you think i did?

i was 10 stish when i got back from living in greece due to malnurishment and stress at the time.i was 13'1 when i started.

any new posters on here like to give there opinion on the cycle pics? would be appreiciated


----------



## Draculas (Oct 5, 2006)

Well, it's hard to tell, but personally i think you could have gained a bit more with less bodyfat. There are few factors in my opinion, firstly it's your diet, i think that you rely too much on shakes and processed foods, secondly quality of gear you use and last is your training, i'd have to see your training, intensity, technique, rest periods etc.

Do you cook your own meals or do you buy them? It's a vast difference in quality of meat for example, don't buy cheap meat pumped with water and God knows what else from Tesco, Asda, Waitrose etc, go and find local butcher and make a deal with him that you want a decent meat, i get my fresh beef, chicken and fish for a reasonable/cheap price and can't complain. Taste is by miles much better, feel much stronger and EVERY meal i look forward to eat because i know i made it!!! I personally think, that if you are a good cook better bodybuilder you are. It's a process, but enjoyable, i've learned myself what meals are ok with me which are not, what ingredients to use, how much carbs, what carbs and right time to have them etc etc. There is SOOO MUCH to learn when it comes to cooking and diet, that you'd be surprised how much you could grow without AAS for now. I'm not against them, not at all, but i think once you build that solid base regarding diet, training, recuperation you'd be amazed what changes everyone is capable of. You see, i'm still natty, not for long probably, but i was just lucky to have excellent training partners in past that taught me so much and thanks to their advice i could find my own way to grow and learned to be patient, everyone's different, therefore you have to test you diet, training and recuperation regularly and observe yourself closely, whether you grow or just getting fat.

I went from 62kg to 95kg all naturally, i'm not saying that i'm ripped as i used to be, but definitely leaner than you, it took me several years though to get there and my genetics are average. Just to put it into perspective, been training friend of mine for 8 months who's genetics are just ridiculous, he just reached 93 kg(from 82) with 7%bf, i help him with cooking and training, but hell he's just something else, everyone thinks at the gym that i'm pumping him with gear on daily basis or what but that's just how mother nature created him   It took me ages to be slightly heavier than him with more BF, crazy....but still i think you should get off the gear and start it all over with proper dedication and love for the sport


----------



## warren (Jun 16, 2008)

Draculas said:


> Well, it's hard to tell, but personally i think you could have gained a bit more with less bodyfat. There are few factors in my opinion, firstly it's your diet, i think that you rely too much on shakes and processed foods, secondly quality of gear you use and last is your training, i'd have to see your training, intensity, technique, rest periods etc.
> 
> Do you cook your own meals or do you buy them? It's a vast difference in quality of meat for example, don't buy cheap meat pumped with water and God knows what else from Tesco, Asda, Waitrose etc, go and find local butcher and make a deal with him that you want a decent meat, i get my fresh beef, chicken and fish for a reasonable/cheap price and can't complain. Taste is by miles much better, feel much stronger and EVERY meal i look forward to eat because i know i made it!!! I personally think, that if you are a good cook better bodybuilder you are. It's a process, but enjoyable, i've learned myself what meals are ok with me which are not, what ingredients to use, how much carbs, what carbs and right time to have them etc etc. There is SOOO MUCH to learn when it comes to cooking and diet, that you'd be surprised how much you could grow without AAS for now. I'm not against them, not at all, but i think once you build that solid base regarding diet, training, recuperation you'd be amazed what changes everyone is capable of. You see, i'm still natty, not for long probably, but i was just lucky to have excellent training partners in past that taught me so much and thanks to their advice i could find my own way to grow and learned to be patient, everyone's different, therefore you have to test you diet, training and recuperation regularly and observe yourself closely, whether you grow or just getting fat.
> 
> I went from 62kg to 95kg all naturally, i'm not saying that i'm ripped as i used to be, but definitely leaner than you, it took me several years though to get there and my genetics are average. Just to put it into perspective, been training friend of mine for 8 months who's genetics are just ridiculous, he just reached 93 kg(from 82) with 7%bf, i help him with cooking and training, but hell he's just something else, everyone thinks at the gym that i'm pumping him with gear on daily basis or what but that's just how mother nature created him   It took me ages to be slightly heavier than him with more BF, crazy....but still i think you should get off the gear and start it all over with proper dedication and love for the sport


thaks for the input, few things - cooking wise, im no slouch lol. grew up with my bro in law as a chef so always been around food and kitchens. i appreiciate the input and yah could get better without steroids but my decision has been made with that at the end of te day i now very few people who started at there'' natty limit''. im not in any sport tbf i will not compete ever thats not my aim, as for dedication, i eat on time, smae thing every day, i train , without missing a session and i push myself to the point i cat move that body part the next day, i have went from 10st - 13st natturally since feb., will try t post pics, altough have trained for years but use to keep my weight to fight weight for kickboxing.

i thik i just expected too much of to little, small ammout of time, small ammout of test, small amount of patience from me too.

after reading various posts on here, i still like to here all veiws, but i am coming to the conclusion that i ust exp3ected too much. at the end of the day i gained 8lbs and lowered bf.


----------



## Guest (Feb 9, 2010)

duno about anyone else but i struggle to see 3800 cals in that diet?


----------



## warren (Jun 16, 2008)

2 moments ill post up the spread sheet.


----------



## warren (Jun 16, 2008)

bit small but readable


----------



## Guest (Feb 9, 2010)

oh i misread some of it, sorry.


----------



## warren (Jun 16, 2008)

no worries, well that is the diet im usuig at the moment but have been running t3 and clen last 3 weeks to sd in bf controol untill the tren n test kicks in. which i think should be ow took jab 4 today. think i could have got better true, but i did miss 2 weeks gym and have a bad diet over xmass/ new years week. so suppose i should be happy im up and leaner. and hope i gain more solidly this time round. at the end of the day im lean-ER, and up 8lbs, well 9lbs now. so with upped carbs gear and no closed gym at all lets see what i can do this time around.

just a quiry though if peopel say i could have done better than +8lbs and lower bf on 250mg test,

what would/should i expect on 500mg test + 250mg tren ? justs a thought ( not rhetorical lol


----------



## warren (Jun 16, 2008)

i will be starting a journal tonight keeping a record of all my lifts and diets , times etc hope you all get subscribed and maybee i can see where im gong wrong or right, it woul be appiciated.


----------



## sizar (Nov 13, 2008)

warren_1987 said:


> thanks all for the input, ok
> 
> training split.
> 
> ...


mate to be honest i would say you could do with some more food in your diet rather bangin on 1000 calorie shakes. i would say have 5 solid meals 2 shakes also you need abit more meat and bit more carb in your diet. .. another thing does make a huge difference is training intesity .. are you actualy stimulating muscle growth or just lifiting weights .. i'm not saying ur not all i'm saying alot of people in gym has no idea what intensity to train at and spend hours in the gym with no end result.


----------



## Smitch (Dec 29, 2008)

I'd agree with that Sizar.

I'm not eating enough proper food and am just not growing even though i have 3-4 protein shakes a day. I'm eating slightly more than the OP though.


----------



## sizar (Nov 13, 2008)

yeah honestly there is a big difference to solid food and just shake .. shakes doesn't stay in your digestive system long enough for your body make the best of those nutritent .. it's kinda rapid process. i usualy have solid breakfast , 10am 2 scoop of syntha 6 lunch solid after noon meal same as lunch then train around 5-6 .. post workout shake then as soon as i am in another solid meal then before bed another slow release shake . . sometimes another meal if i stay up late. i rather eat food any day than shake because when ever i drink a shake i'm stil hungry .. no matter how heavy i go on the shakes ..


----------



## warren (Jun 16, 2008)

the shakes have 10 eggs in though, that is like having 3.3 eggs each , i read a post not long ago and alot of knowlageble people were saying its fine to intake liquid kcals.

but ill give it ago anyway as im feeling more hungry, i have dropped the fats and upped the carbs abot more

the new diet will be posted up in my journal later, but got to go to hospital t visit the gf soon.

for intensity in the gym, well obv knw one will know who does what and when unless they were with them so me saying i do something means nothing unless you did it with me. but i have went from squating 80kg to 120kg, in 4-6 weeks and that shatters my legs, the rest is to finish them off, im f*cked when i come out of the gym and in in around 45min-1 hour.

but i will see ow this goes, im not unhappy with the first step as i have lower bf% than at begining and im weighing more.

on a side note, the vain down my bicep is starting to pop out, i have never had this out before even at low bf% so think it could be the aas.


----------



## Guest (Feb 9, 2010)

sizar said:


> yeah honestly there is a big difference to solid food and just shake .. shakes doesn't stay in your digestive system long enough for your body make the best of those nutritent .. it's kinda rapid process. i usualy have solid breakfast , 10am 2 scoop of syntha 6 lunch solid after noon meal same as lunch then train around 5-6 .. post workout shake then as soon as i am in another solid meal then before bed another slow release shake . . sometimes another meal if i stay up late. i rather eat food any day than shake because when ever i drink a shake i'm stil hungry .. no matter how heavy i go on the shakes ..


bollocks mate. whey/isolate etc is best absorbed by the body

*Biological Value of Protein*

*
*

*
*



*1) Whey Protein (BV 100+)*
​
*
*



*2) Eggs (BV 100)*
​
*
*



*3) Dairy, meat, fish, poultry (BV 70 - 100)*
​


----------



## warren (Jun 16, 2008)

ill post the link to my journal, tonight hope you all sub great honest help thanks


----------



## Big Dawg (Feb 24, 2008)

warren_1987 said:


> the shakes have 10 eggs in though, that is like having 3.3 eggs each , i read a post not long ago and alot of knowlageble people were saying its fine to intake liquid kcals.
> 
> but ill give it ago anyway as im feeling more hungry, i have dropped the fats and upped the carbs abot more
> 
> ...


Tren will do that to you mate, my vascularity was insane while on it! It's coming back now as I'm dieting.

RE liquid cals, there's nothing wrong with consuming 50% of your intake from shakes if you have to. It's been debated countless times and it should be fine. The only reason I have only one shake a day is purely for hunger reasons - I love to eat and I'd be starving and bored all day drinking shakes! But from a nutrient absorption/ muscle development etc point of view it should be fine.


----------



## RyanClarke (May 7, 2009)

Dan said:


> bollocks mate. whey/isolate etc is best absorbed by the body
> 
> *Biological Value of Protein*
> 
> ...


x2. Prefer shakes to meals personally


----------



## 54und3r5 (Apr 11, 2008)

Surely as long as you get the calories in (from a clean protein/carb/fat source) the manner in which you consume your food is irrelevant.. Your body will burn 1000 cals of liquidised food as efficient as a solid meal.


----------



## Jimmy1 (Aug 14, 2003)

whole food is far superior for muscle growth than shakes

shakes are only there to SUPPLEMENT a balanced whole food diet

sometimes what looks good on paper isnt natrualy so in real life


----------



## avril (Mar 5, 2005)

a wee skinny..10 stone










to a wee bit bigger ha ha


----------



## weeman (Sep 6, 2007)

sizar said:


> *yeah honestly there is a big difference to solid food and just shake .. shakes doesn't stay in your digestive system long enough for your body make the best of those nutriten*t .. it's kinda rapid process. i usualy have solid breakfast , 10am 2 scoop of syntha 6 lunch solid after noon meal same as lunch then train around 5-6 .. post workout shake then as soon as i am in another solid meal then before bed another slow release shake . . sometimes another meal if i stay up late. i rather eat food any day than shake because when ever i drink a shake i'm stil hungry .. no matter how heavy i go on the shakes ..


It depends on the make up of your shake,if you have a whey isolate or concntrate shake and some malto then no its not gnr be as good as a meal if it was making up the vast majority of your diet,but if you were having soething like Extreme's Pro-6 for instance:tongue: it has a protein release rate of 6 hours,combine that with some bananas and rice cakes or a multi sourced carb powder then its perfectly acceptable.

Its no secret my own diet is mostly made from shakes,right at this moment in time its about 50/50 shakes food but usually it will be closer to 70/30 in the offseason,when prepping for the vast majority of the diet i am usually 50/50 shakes/food and only start removing shakes when hunger and appetite become overbearing 

The guy i am prepping right now for the 1st timers i have him on basically a 50/50 diet for the past 5 weeks now,heres a cpl of pics of how he stands at basically 11 weeks out now.


----------



## sizar (Nov 13, 2008)

easy guys don't bite my head off .. saying shakes are not the best.. but it's not ..if it was bodybuilders would stick with 3 meals and 5 shakes .. yeah job done .. but i don't know mate.. not the once i know.. i hardly see them drink shake it's always whole food. mainly chicken rice and steak and sweet potato mate. plus veg sometimes pasta n chicken and breakfast is the usual oatmeal and eggs . if you think shakes doing the job go for it. but i personaly no matter what i put in my shake .. i'm stil hungry after 10 mins .. it doesn't cure my hunger ..


----------



## rs007 (May 28, 2007)

Jimmy said:


> whole food is far superior for muscle growth than shakes
> 
> shakes are only there to SUPPLEMENT a balanced whole food diet
> 
> sometimes what looks good on paper isnt natrualy so in real life


Disagree.

Even if one was superior to the other, there would be no margin in it broad enough as to be described as far.

All decent shakes are, is concentrated nutritious food.

Plus, there is some argument, that solid foods might not be able to introduce amino acids into the bloodstream QUICK enough to get the bestestest spike in anabolism.

IMO, it needs to be mapped to your lifestyle anyway.

There seem to be way more "normal" guys getting into bodybuilding and doing alright at it, even in competition now. Im one of em.

I don't think this is just down to a rise in popularity of BB, its just as underground as it ever was. And I don't think its availablilty of gear, because we all know the majority of "new users" who have made gear more widespread in its use, don't eat and barely train.

I genuinely think its because of decent quality shakes.

Think about it, the average hard working guy, with a family, stress to the hilt... how is he supposed to live any sort of productive bodybuilding lifestyle on solid food? He just doesnt have the time, nor the money probably, to reach optimum growth intake.

Shakes solve that.

So in that regard, given the sheer number of guys that seem to make it someway decent, I'd argue shakes are superior to food...

:whistling:


----------



## warren (Jun 16, 2008)

http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/member-journals-pictures/88638-time-get-big-journal.html#post1471318

lik to my new journal hope for some input and followers thanks in advance, it has my diet totally broke down too


----------



## sizar (Nov 13, 2008)

chilsi .. you talking about his new diet ? i haven't looked at it yet .. i'll have a look . . i'm up to 12.10 this morning thats on empty stomach after been to the ... u knowlol so rubbish included.


----------



## Wee G1436114539 (Oct 6, 2007)

rs007 said:


> Plus, there is some argument, that solid foods might not be able to introduce amino acids into the bloodstream QUICK enough to get the bestestest spike in anabolism.
> 
> :whistling:


Ding ding ding we have a winner.


----------



## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

1st pic was when I 1st met pete (PRL)

2nd pic, 6 months later, Pete lost interest as I outgunned him and I ran a cybergenics course


----------



## Big Dawg (Feb 24, 2008)

^ I think some people are misunderstanding the point of the thread lol. I thought it was just warren's progress pics


----------



## Wee G1436114539 (Oct 6, 2007)

hahahahaha...joe that's the worst photo shopping I've ever seen  Awesomely, proudly, god awful. Excellent.


----------



## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

Wee G said:


> hahahahaha...joe that's the worst photo shopping I've ever seen  Awesomely, proudly, god awful. Excellent.


Photoshopping?????? :cursing: :cursing: :cursing: :cursing: :cursing:

LMFAO, I think it was RS actually, or pos winger cant remember, both had ago so i remember


----------



## Jimmy1 (Aug 14, 2003)

the thing is RS, is that there is also some argument that all the pro shakes info comes from supps companies, who stand to earn from it

i wont post up bs studies as i never have faith in studies either way of the argument that they may fall, as usually there is an ulterior motive...which is why i like real life experience

ask any nutritionist or doctor what is healthier, and/or more superior

its just a dissagreement...no bigee...but you might say you know tons of sucess from bb'ers who consume mainly shakes...where as i can say otherwise

i can comment myself in my day from doing it both ways (when paul borreson told me only to eat 1 food meal a day) i was hungry, small and very unhealthy...not to mention dodgy bowel movements

we need decent fibre in our diets and shakes cant cut it

we need good vitamins/minerals also....which we get in shakes...but again as any nutritionist will tell you, although vits/mins are absorbed in supplement form, food gets it in better

i do agree however with the point that there comes a stage in which we cant eat any more...which is where shakes come to supplement our diets

im not arguing, or preaching...and you get success your way...others do it different

we just agree to dissagree


----------



## rs007 (May 28, 2007)

Jimmy said:


> the thing is RS, is that there is also some argument that all the pro shakes info comes from supps companies, who stand to earn from it
> 
> i wont post up bs studies as i never have faith in studies either way of the argument that they may fall, as usually there is an ulterior motive...which is why i like real life experience
> 
> ...


I know mate, not arguing - we are cool!

Ultimately what I am saying, is I don't see a hell of a lot of difference, hence why the main bit of your post i am repsonding to is your statement that solid food is far superior.

The lifestyle and what the subject does with their particular intake has far more bearing IMO.

Nutritionalists.... honestly, I could care less, thats like asking a GP how to go about constructing a course of gear for mass gain, they just don't have the experience or the context of the margins we are trying to push.

Basically, like you say, for every big guy someone can show up, that they say "he is so and so, and only eats solid food" I could dig up another, equally as big, who relies heavily on shakes.

One things shakes do tend to lack is fibre though, which I feel is important, think we can agree on that one 

Edit: Oh and I know what you mean about supp company bias, some of the claims made are laughable - but there are plenty of independant studies available showing the anabolic/anticatabolic modes of action and numerous health benefits of the various isolated proteins we use... no conspiracy.


----------



## StephenC (Sep 2, 2007)

rs007 said:


> One things shakes do tend to lack is fibre though, which I feel is important, thing we can agree on that one


I like adding psyllium husk for fibre when using more shakes than food, could carve a kayak out of the logs I conjur up when using that stuff:lol:


----------



## rs007 (May 28, 2007)

StephenC said:


> I like adding psyllium husk for fibre when using more shakes than food, could carve a kayak out of the logs I conjur up when using that stuff:lol:


I like my fibrous veg, similarly, I could save up my turds and build a hefty log cabin when I am on the veg :lol:

I do enjoy my sh1ts though, almost as much as my special alone time :lol:

Sorry for taking thread OT, as you were people


----------



## Jimmy1 (Aug 14, 2003)

like i say, agree to dissagree 

to the OP

wether you take shakes or solid food....you are not taking enough

sorry if this is posted but i havent read the entire thread

your gains in the picture seem very minimal tbh

it doesnt matter what weight the scales say you have gained...nor how much fat the callipers say you have lost...you are entering neither a weight gain contest, nor a fat loss contest....i am guessing at the moment you are training for looks...maybe even one day a bb'ing show

one thing i know is this

when your on stage, you dont win or lose because of how much gear you take, how much fat you burn, how much your weight is, or how many plates you push.....no, you are judged on how you look

i am not putting down your physique at all as looks are subjective....but as to your progress i feel its below par for a first cycle of that duration

something is lacking imo

get the carbs in for a start

train hard, eat well and sleep

add this to consistency over years and you will grow


----------



## rs007 (May 28, 2007)

Jimmy said:


> like i say, agree to dissagree
> 
> to the OP
> 
> ...


I disagree

:lol:

Only joking, 100% agree with all of that.


----------



## Jimmy1 (Aug 14, 2003)

:tt2:


----------



## warren (Jun 16, 2008)

thaks guys, do you think i should have more than 3800kcals? yeah you are right, on the looks, that is the ONLY thing i train for lol. i know people might think im not a proper trainer if its only for vanity but that is my reasons, im not a shy person but tanding on a stage is a bit too far for me, more respect to the folk who can do it.

i have put up a preliminary diet up, i my journal which i will be changing now lol. thanks agin guys, hope you get a chace to look at my journal


----------



## weeman (Sep 6, 2007)

warren_1987 said:


> thaks guys, do you think i should have more than 3800kcals? yeah you are right, on the looks, that is the ONLY thing i train for lol. i know people might think im not a proper trainer if its only for vanity but that is my reasons, im not a shy person but tanding on a stage is a bit too far for me, more respect to the folk who can do it.
> 
> i have put up a preliminary diet up, i my journal which i will be changing now lol. thanks agin guys, hope you get a chace to look at my journal


mate stop focusing on the number of kcals and focus on the macros (prot/carb/fat) intake,the kcals are subjective


----------



## warren (Jun 16, 2008)

weeman said:


> mate stop focusing on the number of kcals and focus on the macros (prot/carb/fat) intake,the kcals are subjective


ok mate ill try, im so stuck in this midset of working it out from kcals. im just trying to sort my diet out now on excell, what sort of macros to sim for though, i have found in the past i have reacted badly to high carbs but this maybee due to over eating, my plan is to gain weigt now and then maintain /keep gains for a while then strip down to lower digits.

300 p 150 f 300 seem ok or am i way off.


----------



## sizar (Nov 13, 2008)

i would aim for 300 atleast protein ... 300carb 100 fat if your not gaining up it


----------



## weeman (Sep 6, 2007)

warren_1987 said:


> ok mate ill try, im so stuck in this midset of working it out from kcals. im just trying to sort my diet out now on excell, what sort of macros to sim for though, i have found in the past i have reacted badly to high carbs but this maybee due to over eating, my plan is to gain weigt now and then maintain /keep gains for a while then strip down to lower digits.
> 
> *300 p 150 f 300 seem ok or am i way off*.


looks a good base to work from to me matey:thumbup1: thats the neighbourhood i would have picked for you


----------



## Jimmy1 (Aug 14, 2003)

i feel myself (personally) that 2-250g protein is adequate for you right now, but carbs and fats are desperately needed

200g p

500g c

100g f

if your ultra carb sensative lower them to 400g and up fats to compensate but 300g is diet level imo

adding fibre (veg seeds nuts fruit) is essential and helps keep insulin low, in conjunction with fats and protein

but macr ratio's are individual...start with a template....stick to it (i mean really stick to it) and over weeks/months you will see differences to your physique as you change things bit by bit

once you find balance you may have a completely different set of ratio's...but you will have learned


----------



## sizar (Nov 13, 2008)

Jimmy said:


> i feel myself (personally) that 2-250g protein is adequate for you right now, but carbs and fats are desperately needed
> 
> 200g p
> 
> ...


jimmy don't you think 500 carb is way too much .. ?


----------



## Rambo55 (Jun 14, 2009)

Carbs are NOT bad ... If you need to hit a certain level of cals then i don't see a problem with it.

I eat 250g a day in prep


----------



## sizar (Nov 13, 2008)

Rambo55 said:


> Carbs are NOT bad ... If you need to hit a certain level of cals then i don't see a problem with it.
> 
> I eat 250g a day in prep


but from what i understand carb is just for energy and if your not very active .. then you wouldn't need that much .. .. 250 carb in prep ... umm wouldn't that just stop you from getting to the condition your after .. but if your 20 muscle guy then thats different.


----------



## Jimmy1 (Aug 14, 2003)

sizar said:


> jimmy don't you think 500 carb is way too much .. ?


nope...not if its good quality and full of fibre

and if you read the post again....it can be adjusted as time goes on...up or down with any of the macro's

you see it seems alot, but if people actually recorded everything they ate even before they ever thought about ratio's....they would be supprised just how much was in the foods they ate


----------



## Jimmy1 (Aug 14, 2003)

sizar said:


> but from what i understand carb is just for energy and if your not very active .. then you wouldn't need that much .. .. 250 carb in prep ... umm wouldn't that just stop you from getting to the condition your after .. but if your 20 muscle guy then thats different.


my carbs never went below 200g in prep....and it killed me just how low my energy was


----------



## Rambo55 (Jun 14, 2009)

Sizar i'm not sure where your getting your info from but to lose fat you need a calorie deficit NOT a carb decifit

My carbs get kept in right till the day..

Scott Abel preps me and i think he knows his stuff


----------



## sizar (Nov 13, 2008)

Yeah long way round to lose fat .. iwasn't talking about losing fat anyway you said carb is good 500g carb is just too much for regular person unless your 20 stone pure muscle you need that much energy to function just can't think of anyone having 500 carb and not carrying ton of body fat.


----------



## Rambo55 (Jun 14, 2009)

Whilst i haven't read the whole thread here so i'm not how or why the 500g figure came about....

But if the guy wishes to "bulk up" I see no issues with that figure.


----------



## warren (Jun 16, 2008)

thanks guys, i really do apreiciate all the help, just shows how valuable this site is also

will pass the reps out after i fon this ecell lol


----------



## Rambo55 (Jun 14, 2009)

Also explain how it's a " long way round" to lose fat?

If in a calorie decifit the rate of "fat loss" will be the same. On lower carbs you will lose "weight" quicker but alot is water


----------



## sizar (Nov 13, 2008)

he might want to add some mass but that don't mean become fat just for the sake of bulking up .. everything within reason .


----------



## Jimmy1 (Aug 14, 2003)

you would be suprised sizar

the worste thing about 500g carbs is getting it in

and we are talking about bulking...not maintaining, or dieting

and if you work out the over all kcals of the above ratio's you will see that they are fine for bulking at the op's goal


----------



## Rambo55 (Jun 14, 2009)

So how would the calories coming from fats make him "less fat" than the cals coming from carbs mate??

Your mis understanding some basic stuff here


----------



## goonerton (Sep 7, 2009)

Sometimes pictures can be deceiving. Your body fat % has definitely gone down, a lot less blub around the hip area. Your shoulders look a bit heavier and your back a bit wider. And you don`t look to be holding any more water in the after pics than the before. Your body fat is down and you have put on 8lb, so if water is the same, logically you have gained more than 8lb of lean tissue in 3 months.

Maybe the results don`t look so dramatic because you haven`t got the water retention many get, which gives an artificially fuller look.

I would say your results are pretty good for 13 weeks on 250mgs of test. Keep cracking on.


----------



## rs007 (May 28, 2007)

Rambo55 said:


> Sizar i'm not sure where your getting your info from but to lose fat you need a calorie deficit NOT a carb decifit
> 
> My carbs get kept in right till the day..
> 
> *Scott Abel preps me and i think he knows his stuff*


Name dropping generally makes one look like a tit mate.

Yes, calorie deficit.

But one you have minimised your fat to what you need for health, protein to maintenance, where the hell you going to next?

:lol:


----------



## warren (Jun 16, 2008)

ok i have macro at 290 p 160 f 250 c , struggling though with carbs, im just off our to get some brocholi, to get some of that in but dont know how many carbs in it


----------



## Dig (Aug 28, 2007)

warren_1987 said:


> ok i have macro at 290 p 160 f 250 c , struggling though with carbs, im just off our to get some brocholi, to get some of that in but dont know how many carbs in it


If your struggling with getting carbs in i find oats blended in water are a fast and easy way of getting them in, especially if you arent a big eater, perhaps some of the more experienced guys posting on the thread have a better way though.

I also wouldnt bother counting fibrous carbs from veg, but that's just me


----------



## Jimmy1 (Aug 14, 2003)

warren_1987 said:


> ok i have macro at 290 p 160 f 250 c , struggling though with carbs, im just off our to get some brocholi, to get some of that in but dont know how many carbs in it


it may be more than you need, but it wont be too much

if thats what you want to start with then try carbs at 400g and fats at 120g

maltodextrine is a good way to supplement carbs when you cant possably eat any more

as is blended fruit with water


----------



## warren (Jun 16, 2008)

i wrote the diet out first based on what i can eat in my head then worked out the macros to see how far i was off.

oats would be one way but, lst time i had them i just bloated big style within weeks i was fat and watery.

hopefully this is visable as i cat resize


----------



## Jimmy1 (Aug 14, 2003)

sometimes when bulking, one needs to overlook water and a little extra fat

btw

i cant read that


----------



## BigDom86 (Jul 27, 2008)

sizar i eat over 600g carbs a day. and im not that fat lol. you seen pics of me.


----------



## warren (Jun 16, 2008)

Jimmy said:


> sometimes when bulking, one needs to overlook water and a little extra fat
> 
> btw
> 
> i cant read that


yeah i was trying to resize lol, ill just write it out for you lol, im trying to bulk but very leanly, that is why i was happyish with the first cycle , lower bf% and up 8lbs, ok i could have gained a bit more muscle but would i have looked fatter? i have a round face to start with lol.

also a question, some oe before metioned, what difference does it make if getting kcals from carbs and fats if in a deficency when dieting.

does this thinkig not translate to gaining lean mass, ie same question,... does it make a difference if kcals are from carbs or fat if you are in a surpus? always cofused me.


----------



## weeman (Sep 6, 2007)

sizar said:


> Yeah long way round to lose fat .. iwasn't talking about losing fat anyway you said carb is good 500g carb is just too much for regular person unless your 20 stone pure muscle you need that much energy to function just can't think of anyone having 500 carb and not carrying ton of body fat.


Mate i could show you pics of guys taking in 1000g of carbs a day and holding no where near 20st of lean tissue,and prob circa 4% bodyfat,believe me you need to open your mind a bit mate 



Jimmy said:


> you would be suprised sizar
> 
> *the worste thing about 500g carbs is getting it in*
> 
> ...


totally true,for me getting the carbs in is a huge chore,and mine arent even overly high,prob between 3-400g a day.

My mate had the living nightmare of having to consume 1000g of carbs a day for his last few weeks going into last years uni just to keep his fullness up as his metabolism was running away with him,also consider the guy started off his prep on 600g carbs a day and that throws the conventional route of what most believe to be the done as regards prep upside down!

Just goes to show how much things can vary from one person to the next sometimes,and this kind of thing Sizar is exactly what i am meaning by open your mind to what is possible


----------



## warren (Jun 16, 2008)

i dont know if it has been the source of my carbs making me fat but i when i was 12st i was eating around 2500kcals with 400c and i got massivly fat, that was oats, pasta, bread , hece why i changd to weetabix, rice, potato. but yeah massive struggle to up my carbs


----------



## Jimmy1 (Aug 14, 2003)

warren_1987 said:


> yeah i was trying to resize lol, ill just write it out for you lol, im trying to bulk but very leanly, that is why i was happyish with the first cycle , lower bf% and up 8lbs, ok i could have gained a bit more muscle but would i have looked fatter? i have a round face to start with lol.
> 
> also a question, some oe before metioned, what difference does it make if getting kcals from carbs and fats if in a deficency when dieting.
> 
> does this thinkig not translate to gaining lean mass, ie same question,... does it make a difference if kcals are from carbs or fat if you are in a surpus? always cofused me.


carbs fill you out

fats dont

lack of carbs flattens you

but one thing is for sure, if you try to stay lean when bulking....you will stay small

its not to say you cant keep the fine line

a balance is needed mentioned by either weeman .... and weeman is a great example of this.....my guess is you dont share weemans genetics though

but those who stay ultra lean USUALY are the lucky type that stay lean even on 3000kcals from snickers a day (like tinytom)


----------



## Jimmy1 (Aug 14, 2003)

warren_1987 said:


> i dont know if it has been the source of my carbs making me fat but i when i was 12st i was eating around 2500kcals with 400c and i got massivly fat, that was oats, pasta, bread , hece why i changd to weetabix, rice, potato. but yeah massive struggle to up my carbs


your protein and fat was too low in this case

balance 

or you were cheating enough not to benefit from the diet?

be honest with yourself...no need to post here


----------



## warren (Jun 16, 2008)

Jimmy said:


> carbs fill you out
> 
> fats dont
> 
> ...


can i not buy these genes anywhere ? lol.

doest this mean i wont be able to gain muscle without getting a higher bf%?

i will be going shopping tomorow i will have to look and ee what i ca add, im up to 270g c without inc my veg and fruit with the help of maltdexterin training days / sultanas non training days.


----------



## Jimmy1 (Aug 14, 2003)

always include fruit in your equation

as for gaining without fat...you can get there

but it will be super slow

if you dont take the midset 'im bulking, so i will get fat anyway....f'it ill eat macD's every day' then you will steadilly grow...with only a little fat

but...you guessed it...you need to find the balance


----------



## weeman (Sep 6, 2007)

Jimmy said:


> carbs fill you out
> 
> fats dont
> 
> ...





Jimmy said:


> always include fruit in your equation
> 
> as for gaining without fat...you can get there
> 
> ...


two great posts,the first one more so because Jimmy makes me sound awesome:thumbup1: :lol:

It is a very fine line to try and walk,and truth be told i probably hinder myself trying to keep what i would regard as acceptably lean in the offseason (ie full abs,quad sep,pec striations etc) versus if i were to relax it a little more,i do seem to gain at a reasonable rate tho,i tend to find i let the condition run away a bit for a month or so then pull it back a bit and so on and so on,but as mentioned i am also experienced in what works for myself and as Jimmy mentioned relatively lucky genetics,whilst most guys trying to achieve this stasis for the first time arent


----------



## warren (Jun 16, 2008)

well im not sure on my weight at the moment, ill weigh in n monday morning. 260g carbs is more than i have ever ate, but yet i do have a large carb day on a sat when i have a cheat meal.

if i can gain and stay relativly what i am now in terms of bf% then i could be happy, i guessed iam about 15% and wouldnt want to get much fatter, but like said i will look better with bigger muscles even if the bf% is the same.


----------



## Jimmy1 (Aug 14, 2003)

weeman said:


> It is a very fine line to try and walk,and truth be told i probably hinder myself trying to keep what i would regard as acceptably lean in the offseason (ie full abs,quad sep,pec striations etc) versus if i were to relax it a little more,i do seem to gain at a reasonable rate tho,i tend to find i let the condition run away a bit for a month or so then pull it back a bit and so on and so on,but as mentioned i am also experienced in what works for myself and as Jimmy mentioned relatively lucky genetics,whilst most guys trying to achieve this stasis for the first time arent


which refers back to an earlier post

get a template

try it out (strictly)

ajdust ratios and/or kcals slightly gives you the general idea of what your bodies raction is

but one has to stay strict to do this, or you will never learn


----------



## Jimmy1 (Aug 14, 2003)

warren_1987 said:


> well im not sure on my weight at the moment, ill weigh in n monday morning. 260g carbs is more than i have ever ate, but yet i do have a large carb day on a sat when i have a cheat meal.
> 
> if i can gain and stay relativly what i am now in terms of bf% then i could be happy, i guessed iam about 15% and wouldnt want to get much fatter, but like said i will look better with bigger muscles even if the bf% is the same.


seriously below 300g is super low....just live a little


----------



## JUICERWALES (Oct 20, 2009)

Brawlerboy said:


> To be frank, there's hardly any difference at all. Steroids only work on those who have been training for years, know exactly what they're doing exercise and diet wise.
> 
> .


This is B.S IMO. alot of people I know are on juice and shoot about 750mg a week and have no idea about gear, they are gaining copious amounts of weight and are looking A LOT better than they did, they have no diet but train hard and even get lashed up on the weekend.

what you have just said above, is what you have just interpreted from other people, when in fact, you don't even know what you're talking about.

Yes, diet and experience will 100% make a difference, but saying steroids only work on those who have trained for years with a good diet, is crap.

My 2 cents.


----------



## warren (Jun 16, 2008)

i will have a play and try to get a template to stick to so i can learn and adjust i the future, its crazy that it is considered super low as my main carbs today have came from 400g potato - 4 weetabix - 50g rice, then rest from milk and otheres ect and i feel so full and bloaty.


----------



## Jimmy1 (Aug 14, 2003)

that could be the fact that your body doesnt tollerate lactose and/or wheat


----------



## rs007 (May 28, 2007)

Jimmy said:


> which refers back to an earlier post
> 
> get a template
> 
> ...


This IMO is the only real way to build any picture of what is happening, get on a plan - any plan - as long as it gives a known base point - and work from there to your own reaction, tweak as required.


----------

