# cocked up with cardio.. Help!..



## racky (Mar 7, 2010)

happily bulked up to 14.8 an in doing so body fat rose up to 22.1. I wanted to then drop body fat to as low as possible without loosing too much gains.. Completly ballsed this part up.

My routine in doing so was as follows mon chest/tri tues cardio weds bak/bi thurs cardio fri shoulders/delts sat cardio sun rest. My training methods bein 15,12,10,8,6,3 stackin light to heavy. My cardio was a steady road circuit lasting 25-30 min.. The problem now being ive ran my self into the ground. Im now 12.11 and still 19.2 body fat feeling skinny and totaly ****ed off!..

Im missing my weight n size so have decided im on the bulk agen.. Diet as follows..

On wakein..

1..

bowel oats

3 egg omlette

2 pieces cooked chiken sandwhich meat ripped up inc in omlette..

Hour later pro 6 protein..

Hour later..

2..

Tin tuna and salad cream

Potato

Hour later pro 6 protein..

Hour later..

3..

250 g either diced chik or pork or beef mince

Form of sauce

Half bag mix veg

Hour later pro 6 protein..

Hour later..

4..

Repeat meal 3 as i plate 2 up

Hour later..

5..

100g fish fillet butter sauce

Hour later..

6..

3 egg omlette

2 cooked chiken sandwhich meat riped up inc in omlette

Hour later..

7..

250g virtualy fat free cottage cheese

Hour later.. just b4 bed pro 6 protein

Training days i train in between meal 1 and 2 using protein with meal 1 and 2 instead of a hour after each feed on non training days.. Aim being to consume sum form of protein around every hour so body can consume..

Im now currently training mon chest/tri weds bak/bi fri shoulders/delts.. Chasein weight in 6s min 3 sets or continue to failure set..

Im in need of good cardio methods to help me drop my body fat count alongside gaining weight bulking.. Its not my strong point..

Any ideas would be greatly appreciated..


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## racky (Mar 7, 2010)

nice to see i wasted my time trying to find info through this site again..

Still least i havent recieved the **** take comments peeps usualy throw around here if u dont have pic up showing yourself as incredible hulk..

This sound ok..

1 30 min cardio run session keepin between 130-140.. Dun early morn on empty stomach b4 first feed?.. Will up sessions if i need on weight/body fat mots..

BUMP!!!..


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## a.notherguy (Nov 17, 2008)

fasted cario works. just run at a pace where you dont feel too tired and you will be ok.

i think your over thinking things.

have you lost any strength whilst doing your cardio routine? if not then you prob not doing too much wrong.

p.s. - you not going to get many replys starting posts with

nice to see i wasted my time trying to find info throug'h this site again..

Still least i havent recieved the **** take comments peeps usualy throw around here if u dont have pic up showing yourself as incredible hulk


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## Guest (Sep 16, 2010)

How are you measuring your bodyfat? unless its multipoint calliper testing your wasting your time.

How did you alter diet to cut?

PS, your post is confusing, writing your diet down like

7am - xyz

9am- xyz

12pm- xyz

etc

Makes it easy to follow, and actually calculating your macros will help people also.

AM cardio is great, do 30-45mins pre breakfast. Low intensity.

Your workout would also help out. I would advise against do the rep/set scheme your doing and stick to 3x8-10 with the same weight and progressive overload.


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## racky (Mar 7, 2010)

boots matey.. Weight n body fat scales..

Currently training 3 x 8 mon chest/tri.. weds back/bi.. Fri shoulders/delts.. sat am 35 min fasted treadmill 130-140 heart rate..

New diet is as follows..

Meal 1 in wakein..

3 egg ommlette

2 slices cooked chicken breast inc in ommlette

Hour after feed pro 6 protein..

Meal 2 hour after protein..

Tin of tuna an salad cream..

Hour after feed pro 6 protein..

Meal 3 hour after protein..

250g chicken or pork or beef mince

Half bag mixed veg

Hour after feed pro 6 protein..

Meal 4 hour after protein..

Repeat meal 3 as plate 2 up

Meal 5 hour after feed..

100g fish fillet in butter sauce

Meal 6 hour after feed..

3 egg ommlette

2 slices cooked chicken incin ommlette

Meal 7 hour after feed..

250g virt fat free cottage cheese

Hour after feed pro 6 protein..

Around 350g protein..

Around 100g fats..

Around 50g carbs..

Looking to put on alot of lean size whilst droping body fat..

Diet.. training etc tapered any better for my goal or am i way off mark?..


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## racky (Mar 7, 2010)

bump!..

Info/advice needed a.s.a.p want to know if im on right track or not..


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## squatthis (May 3, 2010)

Do u mean the scales that measure bodyfat percentage by impendance? If so I would question the accuracy of the readings as the result given when measuring bodyfat % as there are a fair few variables that affect the given %. The placement of electrodes and hydration at time of measurement affect the results greatly. Also, these machines are generally set to estimate bodyfat in both men an women, however because fat is stored in different places on men and women (also between individuals) the measurement is also inaccurate.

A more accurate measurement would be either callipers or hydrostatic testing.

I can't see how you would have lost that much weight with such minimal fat loss.


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## squatthis (May 3, 2010)

BTW I would suggest having a read up on high intensity interval training, if you have a read you will find a decent amount of research which suggests this way of training is beneficial in terms of fat loss and muscle retention, there are quite a few on here who advocate this training method too.


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## racky (Mar 7, 2010)

squatthis said:


> Do u mean the scales that measure bodyfat percentage by impendance? If so I would question the accuracy of the readings as the result given when measuring bodyfat % as there are a fair few variables that affect the given %. The placement of electrodes and hydration at time of measurement affect the results greatly. Also, these machines are generally set to estimate bodyfat in both men an women, however because fat is stored in different places on men and women (also between individuals) the measurement is also inaccurate.
> 
> A more accurate measurement would be either callipers or hydrostatic testing.
> 
> I can't see how you would have lost that much weight with such minimal fat loss.


I just posted what the print out told me.. To be fair my road run in 25-30 min was alot more heavier than the am fasted cardio having now done that at 130-140 heart rate so i can deffo see how i managed to balls it up mate.. Probs more in cardio trainin zone than actual fat burning if that makes sense..

Diet wise and goal wise does everything look intact in my post matey?.. Realy need to get this part down to a tea then just a matter off fillin myself up then rather than constant tamperin n taperin grrrrr..


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## squatthis (May 3, 2010)

I'm probably not the best to talk to about ur diet, just read what you put an thought I'd point out the drawbacks of the method u measured with, just to give u some perspective of the info you have.

As far as I know, steady state aerobic cardio will trigger more muscle loss than the interval training I mentioned. Intervals also burns more fat.

Have you looked into cyclic ketogenic diets? I have read that this method also helps to preserve muscle while losing bodyfat. Have a read though as I'm not knowledgeable enough to explain it all.


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## racky (Mar 7, 2010)

squatthis said:


> I'm probably not the best to talk to about ur diet, just read what you put an thought I'd point out the drawbacks of the method u measured with, just to give u some perspective of the info you have.
> 
> As far as I know, steady state aerobic cardio will trigger more muscle loss than the interval training I mentioned. Intervals also burns more fat.
> 
> Have you looked into cyclic ketogenic diets? I have read that this method also helps to preserve muscle while losing bodyfat. Have a read though as I'm not knowledgeable enough to explain it all.


To be honest mate my diet is very much on the basis of keto higher protein.. fats n very low carbs.. My round 50g carbs cum from.. 2/3g per servin protein powder.. 4g bag mix veg then other bits from sauces inclusions in other foods etc..

Reason i chose to diet my way was to burn up my body fat stores.. Hopefully 1ce body fats lowerd ill continue to be able to diet this way and gain good size???.. hence me asking earlier in post..

P.S my breath stinks n my mouth is rotten so rekon im along the lines of keto..


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## diggler1000 (Sep 29, 2009)

I dont agree with your very low carb diet mate, Keto is a sure fire way of losing muscle!!

carbs supply your body with energy so the protein can be used for muscle hypertrophy.

so i would suggest upping your carbs, and also do your cardio, fast paced for 15-20 mins max, 8-12 hours away from your weight training. this way it wont interfere with post workout nutrition.

Good Luck


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## hsmann87 (Jun 22, 2010)

diggler1000 said:


> I dont agree with your very low carb diet mate, *Keto is a sure fire way of losing muscle!!*
> 
> carbs supply your body with energy so the protein can be used for muscle hypertrophy.
> 
> ...


 B*LLSH1T


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## bassmonster (Aug 29, 2009)

hsmann87 said:


> B*LLSH1T


Very contructive indeed. 

#

Why don't you argue your point properly?


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## m575 (Apr 4, 2010)

hsmann87 said:


> B*LLSH1T


X2


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## hsmann87 (Jun 22, 2010)

bassmonster said:


> Very contructive indeed.
> 
> #
> 
> Why don't you argue your point properly?


 fair point.

i can name a number of bodybuilders who have prepared for a show using keto and have succeeded. this isnt just enhanced bb'ers, but naturals aswell.

for someone who looks like they havent been training long (no offence) and hasnt experimented with such a diet, seems a bit silly to post such a comment liek "keto is a sure fire way to waste away muscle"

this post could be 5000 words long, but i will spare everyone the anger of reading my bullshizzle and say that there is an array of info out there about keto. so instead of bashing it when one clearly hasnt tried it, either do some more research on it, try it for yourself or dont make such silly comments

everyone is different. some people respond well to keto, some dont.


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## racky (Mar 7, 2010)

if protein intake is kept high like my 350 plus g is it possible to gain good lean size still dietin along the lines of under 50g carbs?..

Im not just wanting a few week at this strategy to cut.. So far finding it very easy doing minimal carbs so dont rekon id strugle to do it continuous but only if gaining lean size is posible in the proces???..


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## diggler1000 (Sep 29, 2009)

And what is it you find B.S exactly ?? hsmann 87

I thought the use of this forum was to help guys with genuine problems...

Not to write stupid comments....****!


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## Smitch (Dec 29, 2008)

If you want to know about keto PM BIGJOE, he's the king of keto.

It works for him, and it doesn't look like he's short of a bit of muscle.....


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## racky (Mar 7, 2010)

Smitch said:


> If you want to know about keto PM BIGJOE, he's the king of keto.
> 
> It works for him, and it doesn't look like he's short of a bit of muscle.....


Ive messaged him and asked him to check post but no luck as of yet..

Can see im losein body fat and tightening to the eye.. Weighd at 12.10 today but do luk aload better already after say a week at this method..

Hopefully the bodyfat will eventualy shed to a point where my high protein intake then causes lean mass n weight gain whilst sticking with this dieting method to keep bodyfat down..

I hope anyways haha or its retirement and back ont the seabrook n yorkshire mixtures haha..


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## racky (Mar 7, 2010)

bump..

Still no answer to the question i keep asking..

Anybody whose done a form of keto type diet???..


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## squatthis (May 3, 2010)

Tbh mate, I dnt think ur getting the answers because all this has been extensively discussed on this forum already. If you search and read u will find the information you require.


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## racky (Mar 7, 2010)

squatthis said:


> Tbh mate, I dnt think ur getting the answers because all this has been extensively discussed on this forum already. If you search and read u will find the information you require.


Ive read the answer from plenty of dif places and thought if i get to a stage where im then on to burning protein stores il gladly up protein agen.. Not a whole lot of food for 350g protein there in my current diet.. Could easily scale more.. Plus extra inclusions of shakes inbetween later meals.. Wot im not getting is from actual saying yes mate dun the diet and you gain size provided proteins up..

I could happily just bulk at 300 300 100 but at 19 body fat i dont think its wise but to then do this diet and loose everything is why im worried hence wanting to gain info from tried and tested people..

From what i read id say yes im going to eventualy get to a point of stripping of the body fat and then ill start to put on lean size and weight but im no seasoned pro nor have dieted this way before so wanted to be honest a simple yes mate your on right lines from somebody or a no mate your going to fook yourself up agen.. Surely you get what i mean..


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## B-GJOE (May 7, 2009)

I've been called.

Right firstly! Keto is not a sure fire way to burn muscle. In fact it is protein sparing if you do it right. All this bull crap about keto burning muscle usually comes from individuals who got it wrong, because I agree, get it wrong and you can kiss goodbye to some muscle.

So what is the biggest mistake in keto dieting?

Protein! Too much of it!

The aim of keto is to train the body to switch to a preference of carbs for energy to a preference to fats. The way to do this is to eat fats and not carbs. Carbs = glucose. Unfortunately protein can also = glucose through a process of gluconeogenesis. When the body is short of glucose it will seek out alternative energy sources. If protein in the diet is higher than what is required for repair and growth the body will go into gluconeogenesis mode and convert spare protein to glucose, this may also include a few valuable muscle cells. However, if protein in the diet is low, and fat is high, the body will spare the protein and begin converting fats into ketones to supply the body's glucose only functions, and FFA's will supply the rest of the energy requirements of the body.

So......

How much protein???

About 1g per lb of LEAN body mass. So 200lbs at 10% bf would be 160g of protein per day.

Remainder of calories should come from fat, and carbs kept to below 30g. Best rule is to not eat carb sources at all, and then keeping <30g is easy, because it will only be incidental carbs.

Cardio whilst on keto should be done fasted first thing in morning. About 35 to 40 minutes. First 5 minutes low intensity warm up, second 5 minutes all out balls to the wall high intensity, then 30 minutes low intensity. This will release lots of adrenaline at the start and then the low intensity will utilise this to free up fatty acids from fat stores.

Total calories for fat loss on keto should be around 10 to 12 x bodyweight.

Those scales that supposedly measure lean body mass in Boots in complete bull crap, don't use them, the more muscle you have the more silly the result. I had some electric current body fat jobbies, and they told me around 28% when I was in competition shape.

Get your bodyfat measured correctly to get your macro calculations right

Also, your last comment about gaining lots of lean mass whilst loosing fat ain't going to happen on a fat loss keto diet. You see the body likes to be in 1 state or another, anabolic or catabolic. It doesn't do both at the same time. Fat loss is catabolic. You need to be a little smarter than a calorie defecit keto diet to do both at the same time. A calorie excess keto may be OK to gain some muscle with minimal fat gain. Look for a thread by Tiny Tom a simple guide to gaining muscle and loosing fat.

P.S. To the Op, I suggest you learn to be a little more patient, the world doesn't revolve around you, people have their own lives. You have been rude on the open forum, and PM'd and left messages on my page displaying massive impatience. Continue this way, and you will not be a welcome member on here for long.


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## Magic Torch (May 30, 2005)

Keto is bullsh1t for this guy IMO.....read the first post, he wants to clean bulk, i.e. drop fat and gain muscle.

Even Joe said it, keto will not help you to gain muscle.

Just stick with a balanced diet and add some cardio in. Or eat less carbs and/or time them better.


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## B-GJOE (May 7, 2009)

racky said:


> *My routine in doing so was as follows mon chest/tri tues cardio weds bak/bi thurs cardio fri shoulders/delts sat cardio sun rest.*


Can you give me 3 good reasons why I don't see a leg day in your training routine??

Bear in mind I will only accept that you are crippled or severely injured!


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## Virtus (Apr 30, 2007)

B|GJOE said:


> Can you give me 3 good reasons why I don't see a leg day in your training routine??
> 
> Bear in mind I will only accept that you are crippled or severely injured!


Because he goes on the bike or does large amounts of running - thats my guess :laugh:


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## B-GJOE (May 7, 2009)

Virtus said:


> Because he goes on the bike or does large amounts of running - thats my guess :laugh:


Because he's like most other gym goes, not man enough to get under a heavy squat bar :whistling:

I just wish people would realise how stupid women and the general public think skinny legs on broad shoulders look.

I mean, why do most women watch the rugby and football?

LEGS!

Yes, believe it or not, the opposite sex like muscular legs, and the sooner the bicep boys realised this the better!


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## hsmann87 (Jun 22, 2010)

B|GJOE said:


> Because he's like most other gym goes, not man enough to get under a heavy squat bar :whistling:
> 
> I just wish people would realise how stupid women and the general public think skinny legs on broad shoulders look.
> 
> ...


 yeah but the bicep boys tend to get lucky in clubs when they wear tight t shirts and jeans so i doubt they will change their ways lol


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## racky (Mar 7, 2010)

B|GJOE said:


> Because he's like most other gym goes, not man enough to get under a heavy squat bar :whistling:
> 
> I just wish people would realise how stupid women and the general public think skinny legs on broad shoulders look.
> 
> ...


Bit of a clever vunt you arnt you really mate to be fair.. I wanted advice and yes sharpish im sorry as i didnt want to cause my self any further fook up.. Means nowt to you hercules but for me i didnt want to continue going down a wrong path..

Sunday was my leg day with 1 saturday road cardio whilst bulking.. I surrenderd leg day wen i wanted to shift the body fat as i dint want to be spendin 7 days doing training.. As i upped cardio to tues.. thurs.. sat..

I havent included legs back in to my routine purely because i was more worried about my balls up with my top half.. Simple really mate once back on track my plan being weights mon.. wed.. Fri.. Sun.. Cardio tues n thurs..

Going to include oats with meal 1.. Potato with meal 2 and rice with meals 3 n 4..

Training im goin to my original mon.. weds.. fri.. sun..

Cardio tues n thurs am fasted 130-140 heart rate..

Cheers majic torch for the reply i had bulked from 11.10 to 14.8 with body fat rising to 22.1 which i then tried to drop.. My fook up was from there.. Cheers though youve made me realise a diet along the lines of the 1 i planned could possibly poison me in to a big joe mould and i wouldnt fancy that as no doubt every vunt would be after flattening me for being a gob****e..


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## B-GJOE (May 7, 2009)

racky said:


> Bit of a clever vunt you arnt you really mate to be fair.. I wanted advice and yes sharpish im sorry as i didnt want to cause my self any further fook up.. Means nowt to you hercules but for me i didnt want to continue going down a wrong path..
> 
> Sunday was my leg day with 1 saturday road cardio whilst bulking.. I surrenderd leg day wen i wanted to shift the body fat as i dint want to be spendin 7 days doing training.. As i upped cardio to tues.. thurs.. sat..
> 
> ...


I might be a cvnt and a gobshyte, but I'm a pretty well repped cvnt, and although my delivery is harsh, the content is valuable. :tongue:


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## God (Sep 3, 2009)

B|GJOE said:


> I might be a cvnt and a gobshyte, but I'm a pretty well repped cvnt, and although my delivery is harsh, the content is valuable. :tongue:


And modest with it


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## B-GJOE (May 7, 2009)

God said:


> And modest with it


 :thumb:


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## racky (Mar 7, 2010)

B|GJOE said:


> I might be a cvnt and a gobshyte, but I'm a pretty well repped cvnt, and although my delivery is harsh, the content is valuable. :tongue:


Ill b honest mate i did get the answer to the question i was asking in the end so its cool haha..

Would the extra carb content as posted above included in my minimal carb diet look good enough for a clean bulk to you?.. Diet is post 5 matey..

Going to continue to work of around 350 protein.. around 200 carbs.. Around 100 fats..

With the training and cardio as stated above..

No doubt will upset you further now haha but its got till crimbo to sort its self out body fat wise or im turnin to the growth :lol: ..


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## B-GJOE (May 7, 2009)

racky said:


> Ill b honest mate i did get the answer to the question i was asking in the end so its cool haha..
> 
> Would the extra carb content as posted above included in my minimal carb diet look good enough for a clean bulk to you?..
> 
> ...


To be honest I'm not sure you know, or us, what you want to achieve. You either want to strip the fat, or bulk? If its stripping fat you want then keto may be an option. Keto is muscle sparing as I stated and explained in my post. But you said you wanted to continue to gain clean mass, which why carbs were offered as a good option.

It will be difficult to do both, so decide what you want first.

IMO I'd just clean up the diet, and continue to put on muscle, which would mean the last diet posted would be OK, but I can't see you loosing much fat on that diet.


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## racky (Mar 7, 2010)

my original bulk aim was to try hit 15.5 stone before hitting 22.5 percent body fat.. I only got to 14.8 before getting close to it..

I then planned to try drop off as much of the body fat wiout losing much gains to go again with trying to get to 15.5.. I neva droped the fat though at this point i just droped weight instead..

Idealy i want to be a good 15 stone or a little either way with as little body fat as possible but at still around 19 body fat im wery about bulking.. Hence wanting to know if it was possible to cut the fat yet stil gain size etc weight via dietin similar to keto..

How would you improve the diet mate in order for me to drop fat but still gain weight and size in the process if you dont mind mate???.. Cos at the moment id say im pritty much in no mans land with it all haha..

I thought the diet was sound.. But possibly there where im going wrong then..


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## Lois_Lane (Jul 21, 2009)

Your mistake was to try and hit a body weight in terms of a number.

You should only go by the mirror if you train for vanity.

I have not read through this thread besides the last posts but i am sure what bigjoe said is what i would say but he says it in a much kinder way


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## racky (Mar 7, 2010)

im going to put my faith in big joe having a look and altering my diet for the better and im also going to run his push pull legs bulking ive just spotted in advanced section..

How many 35 min am fasted cardio 130-140 heart rate a week alongside the new training would you recomend?.. 2?.. 3?..

Hit a brick wall with my own methods so may aswell give sumot else a go..

It all goes wrong joe its on your head mate me being your new apprentice and all that! :thumb: .. Haha..


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## B-GJOE (May 7, 2009)

At this point I'll pull out of the advice, as I personally wouldn't go for fat loss and muscle gain at the same time, it's just not that simple. However, as previously mentioned Tiny Tom did a nice thread dedicated solely to achieving this goal, so I am going chicken out, and send you Tiny Tom's way.

Read Here http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/nutrition-diet-articles/71389-losing-weight-gaining-muscle-simple-guide.html


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## racky (Mar 7, 2010)

mate cheers for the link..

I actualy considered a diet and eating structure pritty similar before the balls up.. I kinda tryd base it on the old saying todays food is 2mos energy but neva actualy went with it in the end.. Scared off droping too many cals but obv in experience cost me there..

Id happily follow the training structure as i do prefer the burn i get after gym from working with higher reps..

The problem i have though..

I understand all the 6 days training and where tom uses kickboxing i could change that for low intensity cardio so id b doing that 3 days a week.. Tues, weds, sat and keep sun as full rest and medium cal day jus uppin carbs 15 instead o the 30 on a high day..

My problem though being i wouldnt know which exercises to do for all of the 6 training days and sets or rep range for each???.. Suppose i could work off 3 sets 20 reps and go off my own exercises..

Ive messaged tom asking if hed take a look at this post and if he has the time quickly knock up a pm with the exercises rep n set rage for each of the 6 days.. So hopefuly hel get back to me and i can start having a go at this from monday..


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## racky (Mar 7, 2010)

wana say cheers to yourself bigjoe for posting me i direction of that post..

read it fully now and its exactly the sort of idea i tryd do myself after bulking but not being knowledgeable enough has seen me in this position..

By the looks of it my diet.. change of training n road cardio let me down.. Burning up cals.. over training parts and continuing to create fat through the diet i used not being as clean as i thought it was..

Jus going to continue with am fasted cardio the next 2 days.. Have the weekend off then monday on with this..

Cheers tinytim 2 for original info..


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## B-GJOE (May 7, 2009)

racky said:


> wana say cheers to yourself bigjoe for posting me i direction of that post..
> 
> read it fully now and its exactly the sort of idea i tryd do myself after bulking but not being knowledgeable enough has seen me in this position..
> 
> ...


And thanks to you for a much better post, without the underlying impatience and attitude. But I'm still a cvnt official now, UKM's voted me......LOL


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## Tinytom (Sep 16, 2005)

Racky

I havent got the time to write out a full training and diet plan which I think is what you are aiming for.

My training and diet is what I wrote in the thread I can't really expand much on that TBH.


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## racky (Mar 7, 2010)

id not had time to fully read the post tom when pmd asking for details..

I went with your diet yest and im going to just work around that mate cheers..

Also think the training part is pritty self explanitory in the post.. Simply smash yourself to bits so im sound with the training front mate haha..

Roll on monday mate looking forward to starting..


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