# Performance enhancing drug discussion: Metformin



## swole troll

Use this thread to discuss, ask and answer questions regarding

Metformin (Glucophage)

Metformin, marketed under the trade name Glucophage among others, is the first-line medication for the treatment of type 2 diabetes, particularly in people who are overweight. It is also used in the treatment of polycystic ovary syndrome. It is not associated with weight gain. It is taken by mouth

Esters:



N/A oral medication


Route of administration:



Oral


*post your experiences with this compound in regards to:

cycle length, dosage and other compounds used if applicable.
side effects you physically noticed and blood work results.
how you rate the compound overall / comparisons to other compounds of similar nature, your overall gains vs the side effects.*

(keep discussion largely centered to the subject matter, excessive derailing will be deleted)


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## swole troll

My experience with metformin has always been as an insulting sensitizing 'pct' to insulin or as a supplement to try to stave off insulin resistance when using gh or mk677

I typically will use 500mg pre bed during use of gh or mk677 and or post use until fasted bg is back within range (or as maintenance of the healthy range)

Benefits

* reduction in blood glucose helping to maintain insulin sensitivity (whole host of benefits to this)

* slight recomp effect

* better pumps and slightly fuller look (think insulin lite)

Negatives

* digestive issues for the first week or two of use (slight stomach discomfort from excess gas)

Now I'm no expert on metformin however I have recently started to supplement in year round due to a whole host of benefits as listed above

The potential reduction in igf is not only overstated but largely irrelevant in regard to muscle gain

One thing I will say is supplementation of b12 whilst using met is paramount as it can deplete it quite severely to the point of notable considerable strength loss

I've found 1000mcg of b12 per 500mg metformin to be adequate.

I think almost everyone would benefit from metformin supplementation particularly those pushing carbohydrates in the 400g+ range for prolonged periods of time and or in a caloric surplus

And although fasted blood glucose elevations need addressing asap ideally by dropping the behaviour that is causing it or implementing a basal insulin, metformin can help prevent or at the least delay the need for either of these actions.

Some resources on metformin:

https://podtail.com/podcast/beast-fitness-radio-s-podcast/the-complete-metformin-guide/






https://anabolictv.com/2018/07/metformin-and-bodybuilding/#0


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## JohnnySack

Fair play dude you know your stuff - I've literally no idea what this is. Good to learn though !


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## kruz

Ahh beast fitness radio. I'm just binge listening my way through all their episodes at the minute. I haven't listened to this one but I've heard Alex, or maybe Mike Arnold mention quite a few times that her prefers Berberine over Metformin.


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## Whatwhat

Ah glad I saw this... as been looking into this

its also being used as an anti ageing drug and decent evidence for it

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5943638/ and https://fastlifehacks.com/david-sinclair-supplements/

thanks for the above links. Will look further into it and thinking of adding it. Been trying to find a source though so haven't yet


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## strawberry123

swole troll said:


> My experience with metformin has always been as an insulting sensitizing 'pct' to insulin or as a supplement to try to stave off insulin resistance when using gh or mk677
> 
> I typically will use 500mg pre bed during use of gh or mk677 and or post use until fasted bg is back within range (or as maintenance of the healthy range)
> 
> Benefits
> 
> * reduction in blood glucose helping to maintain insulin sensitivity (whole host of benefits to this)
> 
> * slight recomp effect
> 
> * better pumps and slightly fuller look (think insulin lite)
> 
> Negatives
> 
> * digestive issues for the first week or two of use (slight stomach discomfort from excess gas)
> 
> Now I'm no expert on metformin however I have recently started to supplement in year round due to a whole host of benefits as listed above
> 
> The potential reduction in igf is not only overstated but largely irrelevant in regard to muscle gain
> 
> One thing I will say is supplementation of b12 whilst using met is paramount as it can deplete it quite severely to the point of notable considerable strength loss
> 
> I've found 1000mcg of b12 per 500mg metformin to be adequate.
> 
> I think almost everyone would benefit from metformin supplementation particularly those pushing carbohydrates in the 400g+ range for prolonged periods of time and or in a caloric surplus
> 
> And although fasted blood glucose elevations need addressing asap ideally by dropping the behaviour that is causing it or implementing a basal insulin, metformin can help prevent or at the least delay the need for either of these actions.
> 
> Some resources on metformin:
> 
> https://podtail.com/podcast/beast-fitness-radio-s-podcast/the-complete-metformin-guide/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://anabolictv.com/2018/07/metformin-and-bodybuilding/#0


 Thoughts on metformin vs insulin during a high carb bulk? My nutrient partitioning goes to s**t after a prolonged bulk so I'm looking into ways to counter that (insulin sensitivity) was thinking 500mg metformin 3x a day with high carb meals or 3-4iu novorapid 3x a day with high carb meals?


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## swole troll

strawberry123 said:


> Thoughts on metformin vs insulin during a high carb bulk? My nutrient partitioning goes to s**t after a prolonged bulk so I'm looking into ways to counter that (insulin sensitivity) was thinking 500mg metformin 3x a day with high carb meals or 3-4iu novorapid 3x a day with high carb meals?


 Both do the same job re blood glucose but one will improve insulin sensitivity

The other will increase insulin resistance

Metformin has a terminal effect before gut issues become intolerable

Insulin has an endless ceiling really, just ends up a point where all you're doing is eating carbs and pinning insulin and becoming more and more resistant.

Your question is very broad to give a blanket answer

Are you running gh, are you high body fat, how many carbs are you eating, are you already running high blood glucose?

Metformin would always be my first port of call for bg management (I run it year round but I'd increase dosage and frequency)

Then perhaps including berberine alongside as it has a different moa for glucose disposal.

Failing that I'd really consider my goals but if I was still running high fbg and wanted to continue what I was doing id drop the GDAs and run a basal insulin at 0.2iu per kg bodyweight and retest.


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## strawberry123

swole troll said:


> Both do the same job re blood glucose but one will improve insulin sensitivity
> 
> The other will increase insulin resistance
> 
> Metformin has a terminal effect before gut issues become intolerable
> 
> Insulin has an endless ceiling really, just ends up a point where all you're doing is eating carbs and pinning insulin and becoming more and more resistant.
> 
> Your question is very broad to give a blanket answer
> 
> Are you running gh, are you high body fat, how many carbs are you eating, are you already running high blood glucose?
> 
> Metformin would always be my first port of call for bg management (I run it year round but I'd increase dosage and frequency)
> 
> Then perhaps including berberine alongside as it has a different moa for glucose disposal.
> 
> Failing that I'd really consider my goals but if I was still running high fbg and wanted to continue what I was doing id drop the GDAs and run a basal insulin at 0.2iu per kg bodyweight and retest.


 Thanks for the detailed response, I'm not running GH but I am eating a massive amount of carbs (700+) I'm a postman so am literally walking with a weighted bag 8 hours a day and high carb is the only way I can continue to bulk. My dad and Nan are type 2 and 1 diabetics respectively.

My dad gave me a box of metformin and ive used 3x 500mg per day and responded well to it with literally 0 gut issues on a previous bulk but wondered if I'd be better off with Slin.


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## swole troll

strawberry123 said:


> Thanks for the detailed response, I'm not running GH but I am eating a massive amount of carbs (700+) I'm a postman so am literally walking with a weighted bag 8 hours a day and high carb is the only way I can continue to bulk. My dad and Nan are type 2 and 1 diabetics respectively.
> 
> My dad gave me a box of metformin and ive used 3x 500mg per day and responded well to it with literally 0 gut issues on a previous bulk but wondered if I'd be better off with Slin.


 If it's purely blood glucose control I'd just stick with the metformin until BG becomes an issue and then reassess where you want to go with your goals, calories and pharmaceuticals

Also as a postie remember you could skip breakfast couple days a week and do some fasted LISS (aka your job) and that works wonders for improving BG


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## strawberry123

swole troll said:


> If it's purely blood glucose control I'd just stick with the metformin until BG becomes an issue and then reassess where you want to go with your goals, calories and pharmaceuticals
> 
> Also as a postie remember you could skip breakfast couple days a week and do some fasted LISS (aka your job) and that works wonders for improving BG


 Thanks bud I'll stick with the metformin. And yeah I often do a fast when cutting, I'll incorporate this a couple of times a week on this bulk to help with BG. The job makes cutting an absolute piece of piss (I can eat more than what most people bulk on), bulking not so much lol.


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## Djibril

Glad i found this , was just talking about metformin in another thread.

Im gonna read on it and may give it a shot on a bulking phase when my carbs get over 400g like you stated @swole troll.

One question, when you drop it, you have to slowly tapper down or you just stop taking it and everything returns to normal?


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## swole troll

Djibril said:


> Glad i found this , was just talking about metformin in another thread.
> 
> Im gonna read on it and may give it a shot on a bulking phase when my carbs get over 400g like you stated @swole troll.
> 
> One question, when you drop it, you have to slowly tapper down or you just stop taking it and everything returns to normal?


 just stop taking it, it doesn't shut down pancreatic function

metformin works on hepatic glucose by slowing down the gluconeogenesis in the liver.

it also upregulates glut4 making the muscle cells more receptive to glucose.

honestly outside of the potential gut issues some initially get there is no negatives to metformin and I personally take it year round alongside b12 (500mg/1000ug)

in some lights it is very slightly negative to muscle growth whilst in other lights it is very beneficial to muscle growth

you know how everyone says your best time to grow is post show / cut where all the weight you seem to put on is muscle, intracellular glycogen and water? well that's because of heightened insulin sensitivity and what does metformin do?...

that and the myriad of other health benefits one might suffer from a hypercaloric diet and massively excessive carbohydrate consumption for years on end / whats required to build large amounts of muscle

that and anticarcengenic properties 
the list goes on

moral of the story; metformin is good s**t.


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## Djibril

Great post right there mate. Pretty much covered it all.

Do you still take it pre bed?


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## swole troll

Djibril said:


> Great post right there mate. Pretty much covered it all.
> 
> Do you still take it pre bed?


 Yep no risk of going hypo because of its moa on glucose regulation and you wake up with lower blood glucose further sensitizing the cells.

I've gone up to 1.5 grams daily split am, noon and pm but now settle on 500mg pre bed.

There is formulas out there for grams of carb per mg but generally for 500g or less I'd just stick to 500mg

If you start going up to 650-750g+ you could probably benefit from a second 500mg dosing of metformin and of course keeping an eye on blood glucose just from having such a high carbohydrate intake with increasing bodyweight.


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## Simon90

Tried to get metformin through the pharmacy online but they don't give it out to under 30s ffs


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## Simon90

swole troll said:


> Yep no risk of going hypo because of its moa on glucose regulation and you wake up with lower blood glucose further sensitizing the cells.
> 
> I've gone up to 1.5 grams daily split am, noon and pm but now settle on 500mg pre bed.
> 
> There is formulas out there for grams of carb per mg but generally for 500g or less I'd just stick to 500mg
> 
> If you start going up to 650-750g+ you could probably benefit from a second 500mg dosing of metformin and of course keeping an eye on blood glucose just from having such a high carbohydrate intake with increasing bodyweight.


 Hello mate. 
carbs are up to 500g a day now, most carb meals around 70-100g carbs a meal. 
how would you go about dosing the metformin? 
250mg with the higher carb meals? Or full 500mg with the highest carb meal. 
Cheers


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## swole troll

Simon90 said:


> Hello mate.
> carbs are up to 500g a day now, most carb meals around 70-100g carbs a meal.
> how would you go about dosing the metformin?
> 250mg with the higher carb meals? Or full 500mg with the highest carb meal.
> Cheers


 I'd favor 500mg pre bed with 1000mcg b12.

This is a good listen for those considering metformin

https://podtail.com/en/podcast/beast-fitness-radio-s-podcast/the-complete-metformin-guide/


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## Simon90

swole troll said:


> I'd favor 500mg pre bed with 1000mcg b12.
> 
> This is a good listen for those considering metformin
> 
> https://podtail.com/en/podcast/beast-fitness-radio-s-podcast/the-complete-metformin-guide/


 Cheers mate will listen on way home from work. 
do you pin your b12 or have it orally. I have only got the tabs


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## swole troll

Simon90 said:


> Cheers mate will listen on way home from work.
> do you pin your b12 or have it orally. I have only got the tabs


 Oral fine mate


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## Harry N

@swole troll

if i took the amount of b12 you recommend i would be 80,000 times the RDA

I know it is water soluble but are you sure this is okay?


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## js77

swole troll said:


> My experience with metformin has always been as an insulting sensitizing 'pct' to insulin or as a supplement to try to stave off insulin resistance when using gh or mk677
> 
> I typically will use 500mg pre bed during use of gh or mk677 and or post use until fasted bg is back within range (or as maintenance of the healthy range)
> 
> Benefits
> 
> * reduction in blood glucose helping to maintain insulin sensitivity (whole host of benefits to this)
> 
> * slight recomp effect
> 
> * better pumps and slightly fuller look (think insulin lite)
> 
> Negatives
> 
> * digestive issues for the first week or two of use (slight stomach discomfort from excess gas)
> 
> Now I'm no expert on metformin however I have recently started to supplement in year round due to a whole host of benefits as listed above
> 
> The potential reduction in igf is not only overstated but largely irrelevant in regard to muscle gain
> 
> One thing I will say is supplementation of b12 whilst using met is paramount as it can deplete it quite severely to the point of notable considerable strength loss
> 
> I've found 1000mcg of b12 per 500mg metformin to be adequate.
> 
> I think almost everyone would benefit from metformin supplementation particularly those pushing carbohydrates in the 400g+ range for prolonged periods of time and or in a caloric surplus
> 
> And although fasted blood glucose elevations need addressing asap ideally by dropping the behaviour that is causing it or implementing a basal insulin, metformin can help prevent or at the least delay the need for either of these actions.
> 
> Some resources on metformin:
> 
> https://podtail.com/podcast/beast-fitness-radio-s-podcast/the-complete-metformin-guide/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://anabolictv.com/2018/07/metformin-and-bodybuilding/#0


 Im going back a few years.....as usual.... but one protocol was to use it during the 'off' period from insulin...... so would be used 4wks on/off. Is this of any benefit or is it better used when running slin/GH?


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## swole troll

js77 said:


> Im going back a few years.....as usual.... but one protocol was to use it during the 'off' period from insulin...... so would be used 4wks on/off. Is this of any benefit or is it better used when running slin/GH?


 You can use if year round no problem but yes an effective time would certainly be whilst on gh to lower blood glucose or after insulin usage to resensitize.

Personally I wouldn't use it in conjunction with insulin as it will make it a lot more complicated to control blood glucose and not go hypo, plus it's unnecessary since the insulin is already controlling your bg and lowering sensitivity regardless.

So better to do what you want with the gh and insulin and then look to rectify after with blood glucose control techniques (fasting, cardio, low carb, metformin and GDAs ect)


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## Ironman TS

Thoughts on Berberine vs Metformin @swole troll?

I've been using 1500mg Berberine p/d since I started GH as a GDA because I had a supply of it already. I intend running GH for a while and had planned to move to Metformin once I run out of Berberine. Would taking 500mg pre bed p/d be sufficient to help keep BG under control?


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## swole troll

Ironman TS said:


> Thoughts on Berberine vs Metformin @swole troll?
> 
> I've been using 1500mg Berberine p/d since I started GH as a GDA because I had a supply of it already. I intend running GH for a while and had planned to move to Metformin once I run out of Berberine. Would taking 500mg pre bed p/d be sufficient to help keep BG under control?


 Berberine is an acute acting GDA which can actually make you go hypo

Metformin works on lowering hepatic glucose, more in the background so to speak (I've taken a 500mg before fasted morning cardio to no ill effect)

They both have a common goal but different MOAs

So they do have a nice synergy of lowering bg without causing a hypo of a higher dose of just berberine for instance.

're dosing it's person and circumstance dependant but as a very rough guide you can almost mg for mg metformin to berberine

Whether you specifically require 1500mg of metformin (titrate up to this if you do) only a glucose reading can tell.

You can grab a monitor and glucose strips from boots fairly cheap

Best to monitor rather than dose blindly as both met and berb can cause digestive issues.

And if you are at a point where a gram+ of metformin is required you'd be better served to do a mini cut or some fasting to correct bg before pushing the dosage of gda higher.

Also periods of low or no gh will also be favourable over the need of aggressive intervention for the long term.


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## Ironman TS

swole troll said:


> Berberine is an acute acting GDA which can actually make you go hypo
> 
> Metformin works on lowering hepatic glucose, more in the background so to speak (I've taken a 500mg before fasted morning cardio to no ill effect)
> 
> They both have a common goal but different MOAs
> 
> So they do have a nice synergy of lowering bg without causing a hypo of a higher dose of just berberine for instance.
> 
> 're dosing it's person and circumstance dependant but as a very rough guide you can almost mg for mg metformin to berberine
> 
> Whether you specifically require 1500mg of metformin (titrate up to this if you do) only a glucose reading can tell.
> 
> You can grab a monitor and glucose strips from boots fairly cheap
> 
> Best to monitor rather than dose blindly as both met and berb can cause digestive issues.
> 
> And if you are at a point where a gram+ of metformin is required you'd be better served to do a mini cut or some fasting to correct bg before pushing the dosage of gda higher.
> 
> Also periods of low or no gh will also be favourable over the need of aggressive intervention for the long term.


 Thanks mate, appreciated. I'm preemptively using the Berberine as a safety net rather than trying to fix an issue, just following the dosage guidelines so glad I asked the question.

I'll pick up a monitor as you suggest as it's a side effect that plays on my mind when pushing carbs so better safe than sorry. Think I'll definitely move to Metformin in the future and hopefully be able to run at a lower dose.


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## swole troll

Ironman TS said:


> Thanks mate, appreciated. I'm preemptively using the Berberine as a safety net rather than trying to fix an issue, just following the dosage guidelines so glad I asked the question.
> 
> I'll pick up a monitor as you suggest as it's a side effect that plays on my mind when pushing carbs so better safe than sorry. Think I'll definitely move to Metformin in the future and hopefully be able to run at a lower dose.


 It's cheaper and has less potential for sides.

Berberine is almost an alternative medication after all

Which rarely trumps pharmaceutical medication.

Once your gut flora settles most people experience no sides whatsoever with metformin (provided you include b12, this is vital!)

No digestive issues, no hypos, no acid reflux ect.

Fwiw I've been using 500-1000mg of metformin year round since about 2018.


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## Simon90

swole troll said:


> It's cheaper and has less potential for sides.
> 
> Berberine is almost an alternative medication after all
> 
> Which rarely trumps pharmaceutical medication.
> 
> Once your gut flora settles most people experience no sides whatsoever with metformin (provided you include b12, this is vital!)
> 
> No digestive issues, no hypos, no acid reflux ect.
> 
> Fwiw I've been using 500-1000mg of metformin year round since about 2018.


 You've just reminded me I need more b12. I just carried on metformin after running out of b12 because it wasn't In stock and completely forgot about it til now ffs.

That probably explains the complete lack of energy, ulcers and state of mind


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## swole troll

Simon90 said:


> You've just reminded me I need more b12. I just carried on metformin after running out of b12 because it wasn't In stock and completely forgot about it til now ffs.
> 
> That probably explains the complete lack of energy, ulcers and state of mind


 Yes keep on top of that mate

Can actually be pretty serious as it heavily depletes b12

Not to mention it really badly effects your training, I learned that the hard way

My strength was going down session after session until I introduced b12 supplementation.


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## Simon90

swole troll said:


> Yes keep on top of that mate
> 
> Can actually be pretty serious as it heavily depletes b12
> 
> Not to mention it really badly effects your training, I learned that the hard way
> 
> My strength was going down session after session until I introduced b12 supplementation.


 I was considering getting bloods to see what's going on. I'm not on any gear atm so it makes sense that it's that as I'm still using the metformin with carbs being so high. Strength starting to drop aswell last week.

How fast did strength come back for you after starting the b 12.


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## swole troll

Simon90 said:


> I was considering getting bloods to see what's going on. I'm not on any gear atm so it makes sense that it's that as I'm still using the metformin with carbs being so high. Strength starting to drop aswell last week.
> 
> How fast did strength come back for you after starting the b 12.


 Relatively sharpish iirc but regardless if you feel you are suffering unexplainable strength loss and fatigue and you are using metformin without b12

Then I would bet my bottom dollar on that being your issue.


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## hondastu

swole troll said:


> Yes keep on top of that mate
> 
> Can actually be pretty serious as it heavily depletes b12
> 
> Not to mention it really badly effects your training, I learned that the hard way
> 
> My strength was going down session after session until I introduced b12 supplementation.


 What dose of B12 do you take daily swoletroll?


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## swole troll

hondastu said:


> What dose of B12 do you take daily swoletroll?


 1000mcg b12 per 500mg metformin


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## Ironman TS

@swole troll have you tried Metformin pre workout? Wondering what the effect would be.


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## swole troll

Ironman TS said:


> @swole troll have you tried Metformin pre workout? Wondering what the effect would be.


 I've used metformin at 1500mg per day at times (for specific reason)

This was spread at half a gram 3x per day which included 1 in the AM that is pre workout for me.

I notice nothing because it doesn't shuttle glucose in the same way insulin does, it's effects are primarily concerning hepatic glycogen which is why you can take it fasted and not go hypo.


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## Davemp

@swole troll is there any other benefit to taking more than 500mg other than to aid a high carb diet? 
I have been taking 500mg metformin with 1000 b12 Pre bed and feel I have more energy (maybe placebo)

currently running

175mg test

300mg tren

300mg mast

one thing I will say is I am up a few times through the night and piss1ng like a horse


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## swole troll

Davemp said:


> @swole troll is there any other benefit to taking more than 500mg other than to aid a high carb diet?
> I have been taking 500mg metformin with 1000 b12 Pre bed and feel I have more energy (maybe placebo)
> 
> currently running
> 
> 175mg test
> 
> 300mg tren
> 
> 300mg mast
> 
> one thing I will say is I am up a few times through the night and piss1ng like a horse


 Testing your blood glucose is the only way you're going to answer whether or not this is inline with your goals for using metformin.

1000mg will have more of a profound effect than 500mg irrelevant of timing.

The reason people split it is to prevent or limit digestive issues.


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## Davemp

Thanks for that pal


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## Bachmanityinsanity

Very interested in Metformim.

I have been using R Alpha Lipoic Acid, 200mg x 4 times a day.

That keeps my blood sugar at 5.0 regardless of how many carbs I have.

Would I be better off with Metformim instead? Cheers guys


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## 125921

Simon90 said:


> Tried to get metformin through the pharmacy online but they don't give it out to under 30s ffs


 make friends with an OAP

my grandma has some - i think its for her diabetes

a lot of old people use it / need it


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## Simon90

Chicken_Boy said:


> make friends with an OAP
> 
> my grandma has some - i think its for her diabetes
> 
> a lot of old people use it / need it


 Have it now mate about 700 tabs actually lol


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