# training to failure, how many sets per exercise?



## Fortis (Oct 20, 2012)

Just a couple of questions.

How many sets per exercise ? At the moment I do 5x5 and do 4/5 different exercises for my biceps, so thats 5 sets on each exercise.

But I have heard some good things about training to failure but just wondering about sets?

I was going to ask about reps but found something that stated use a weight that you can lift 8 reps and try to make it up to 10 failing, but do you use the same weight failing up to lets say 8 then 7 then 6 or if you struggle on the second set drop the weight so that you can mange to get 8 reps again?

what do you do?

cheers.


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## DLTBB (Jan 26, 2015)

It's personal preference.

Mike Mentzer would tell you to do 1-3 sets until absolute failure per muscle per week.

Arnold would tell you to do 40-50 sets per muscle twice a week.

I avoid going to complete failure on any of my sets because I get fatigued quickly and it makes my sessions shorter than I would like.

I usually do 12-16 sets on larger muscles like chest, back, legs and shoulders, 9-12 sets on biceps and triceps and 4-6 sets on calves and traps.


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

as humans we only engage all of the muscle fibres in the targeted muscle by going to MMF (Momentary Muscular Failure) for the majority of exercises you need more than one set to get to MMF, what i mean by this is normally smaller muscles will engage and fail first before the targeted muscle, so getting to MMF for most muscles is impossible in one set......

now it doesn't matter if it takes you 1, 2 or 30 sets to reach MMF be that with a heavy or light weight the results will be the same if you achieve MMF......

now if you are doing 5 sets for 4-5 exercises on biceps and you are not failing then you are not training hard enough, thats 20-25 sets on one of the smallest muscles on the body (muscles that we train) that is a ridiculous amount.....does that mean your doing 60-75 sets on say Quads or Back?

5x5 is a method that should be used to promote strength or to push past a plateau its not something you should be doing for the whole session in my opinion.....

choose 3 exercises and do 3 working sets per exercise use a weight you can get 10-12 reps (not easily) then keep that weight static as logic would dictate that your next set you will fail (MMF) at 8-10 reps then on your 3rd set 6-8 reps.....if you cannot do more than 6 reps lower the weight, if you can do more than 12in that first set raise the weight.


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## Fortis (Oct 20, 2012)

Pscarb said:


> as humans we only engage all of the muscle fibres in the targeted muscle by going to MMF (Momentary Muscular Failure) for the majority of exercises you need more than one set to get to MMF, what i mean by this is normally smaller muscles will engage and fail first before the targeted muscle, so getting to MMF for most muscles is impossible in one set......
> 
> now it doesn't matter if it takes you 1, 2 or 30 sets to reach MMF be that with a heavy or light weight the results will be the same if you achieve MMF......
> 
> ...


 Thanks a lot buddy. Was hoping for a decent reply and you've answered everything for me

tah


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## Charlee Scene (Jul 6, 2010)

Pscarb said:


> as humans we only engage all of the muscle fibres in the targeted muscle by going to MMF (Momentary Muscular Failure) for the majority of exercises you need more than one set to get to MMF, what i mean by this is normally smaller muscles will engage and fail first before the targeted muscle, so getting to MMF for most muscles is impossible in one set......
> 
> now it doesn't matter if it takes you 1, 2 or 30 sets to reach MMF be that with a heavy or light weight the results will be the same if you achieve MMF......
> 
> ...


 When you say lower the weight of you can't get more than 6 on the last set, I take it that means when on the second set you make a decision on if you feel you can stay in the rep range depending on the second set and lower it for the last if you feel you can't get the reps with that weight?


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

Charlee Scene said:


> When you say lower the weight of you can't get more than 6 on the last set, I take it that means when on the second set you make a decision on if you feel you can stay in the rep range depending on the second set and lower it for the last if you feel you can't get the reps with that weight?


 of course, if you are failing at 6-7 on the 2nd from last set logic dictates you wont hit 6 on your last set wouldn't it?


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

great read for those who think they cannot train a body part more than once a week just in case they "overtrain"

http://www.elitefts.com/education/training/bodybuilding/integrative-bodybuilding-are-you-training-enough/


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## Charlee Scene (Jul 6, 2010)

Pscarb said:


> of course, if you are failing at 6-7 on the 2nd from last set logic dictates you wont hit 6 on your last set wouldn't it?


 How would you progress from this? Up the weight when you hit 12 12 11-12?


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## nWo (Mar 25, 2014)

I've always had my best results ramping up to one set to failure. Thing is, I know what training to failure really is; a lot of people say they train to failure, but you can guarantee they could squeek out another rep or two if you pointed a gun to their head and told them that you'd shoot them if they didn't get another couple of reps.


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

Charlee Scene said:


> Pscarb said:
> 
> 
> > of course, if you are failing at 6-7 on the 2nd from last set logic dictates you wont hit 6 on your last set wouldn't it?
> ...


In general (because sometimes I will do higher reps) I do this

Lower than 6 = lower the weight

More than 12 = increase the weight


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## UK2USA (Jan 30, 2016)

I'mNotAPervert! said:


> I've always had my best results ramping up to one set to failure. Thing is, I know what training to failure really is; a lot of people say they train to failure, but you can guarantee they could squeek out another rep or two if you pointed a gun to their head and told them that you'd shoot them if they didn't get another couple of reps.


 If you pointed a gun at my head, reps wouldn't be the only thing I would be squeeking out


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## UK2USA (Jan 30, 2016)

I have just switched up my routine from lots of exercises per muscle group (read: probably too many), and am giving the "optimal rep range" with weights as heavy as I can handle with good form a try for a while. I have found so far that with fewer exercises per muscle group, using higher weights, I can still get to (close) failure and in less time. The article below addresses this.

http://www.aworkoutroutine.com/optimal-workout-volume/


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## 31205 (Jan 16, 2013)

I'mNotAPervert! said:


> I've always had my best results ramping up to one set to failure. Thing is, I know what training to failure really is; a lot of people say they train to failure, but you can guarantee they could squeek out another rep or two if you pointed a gun to their head and told them that you'd shoot them if they didn't get another couple of reps.


 Someone said pretty much the exact thing to me about ten years ago and it's probably the best bit of advice I've ever had.


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## Sustanation (Jan 7, 2014)

Fortis said:


> Just a couple of questions.
> 
> How many sets per exercise ? At the moment I do 5x5 and do 4/5 different exercises for my biceps, so thats 5 sets on each exercise.
> 
> ...


 If your looking to train HIT style then ignore the mike mentzer stuff as his later stuff was just too light on frequency and duration and purchase a book by Ellenton Darden http://www.amazon.co.uk/New-High-Intensity-Training-Ellington-Darden/dp/1594860009/ref=sr_1_sc_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1455273938&sr=8-1-spell&keywords=ellingotn+darden it promotes HIT as it was in the 1970s when people got craxy results off it the author was Arthur jones number 2 guy.

Remember you can train long or you can train hard but you physically cant do both, you will realise this once you have truly taken a set to TRUE failure you will want to puke up and do anything but another set, a true HIT workout will have you done in 30mins max and anyone that disagrees is disagreeing with science and I pray Arthur jones was still alive to prove to you what a melen you are.


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## Sustanation (Jan 7, 2014)

UK2USA said:


> If you pointed a gun at my head, reps wouldn't be the only thing I would be squeeking out


 That analogy is in the Ellington darden book I posted above and its a good one.


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## Charlee Scene (Jul 6, 2010)

Pscarb said:


> as humans we only engage all of the muscle fibres in the targeted muscle by going to MMF (Momentary Muscular Failure) for the majority of exercises you need more than one set to get to MMF, what i mean by this is normally smaller muscles will engage and fail first before the targeted muscle, so getting to MMF for most muscles is impossible in one set......
> 
> now it doesn't matter if it takes you 1, 2 or 30 sets to reach MMF be that with a heavy or light weight the results will be the same if you achieve MMF......
> 
> ...


 i would usually say for example on push session 1 and push session 2 do the last set or 2 of the last few exercises to failure not most sets in one workout to failure so I would be doing the same amount over a week to failure instead all in the one session, is that not a good way of doing it? I couldn't imagine 6 or 7 sets to failure on the same muscle in one workout


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## Jordan08 (Feb 17, 2014)

I personally do one rep less than how many i can do in a single set(Find it a good way of avoiding an unnecessary injury). IMO, different people have different definitions to failure. Some people looks for a failure in every set(Over doing in my opinion, not required) and some people believe in achieving failure through a workout.

I personally find 3 exercises for a single body part with around 3-4 sets enough. Though, it's quite difficult to quantify failure. On some days, i am done with just 2 sets on back and on some days, it takes 4.


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

Charlee Scene said:


> i would usually say for example on push session 1 and push session 2 do the last set or 2 of the last few exercises to failure not most sets in one workout to failure so I would be doing the same amount over a week to failure instead all in the one session, is that not a good way of doing it? I couldn't imagine 6 or 7 sets to failure on the same muscle in one workout


 no one can take every set to failure and keep to a pre-determined rep range, essentially the last set should be taken to failure with the ones before stopping with 1-2 (no more) reps in the tank....so lets say your doing chest and you do 3-4 exercises the compound exercises are going to be to failure, so out of the 3-4 exercises 2-3 are compound and you do 4 working sets then the 4th set is taken to failure, so your doing 2-3 failure sets per workout........but as @Jatin Bhatia says below people's interpretation of failure is different.



Jatin Bhatia said:


> I personally do one rep less than how many i can do in a single set(Find it a good way of avoiding an unnecessary injury). IMO, different people have different definitions to failure. Some people looks for a failure in every set(Over doing in my opinion, not required) and some people believe in achieving failure through a workout.
> 
> I personally find 3 exercises for a single body part with around 3-4 sets enough. Though, it's quite difficult to quantify failure. On some days, i am done with just 2 sets on back and on some days, it takes 4.


 i agree with this, you will have guys who just reach 10 then say they can't go any further without trying, for me failure is what it sounds like i fail to complete a rep, after that rep i will either do a few rest pause reps or partials....


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## Charlee Scene (Jul 6, 2010)

Pscarb said:


> no one can take every set to failure and keep to a pre-determined rep range, essentially the last set should be taken to failure with the ones before stopping with 1-2 (no more) reps in the tank....so lets say your doing chest and you do 3-4 exercises the compound exercises are going to be to failure, so out of the 3-4 exercises 2-3 are compound and you do 4 working sets then the 4th set is taken to failure, so your doing 2-3 failure sets per workout........but as @Jatin Bhatia says below people's interpretation of failure is different.
> 
> i agree with this, you will have guys who just reach 10 then say they can't go any further without trying, for me failure is what it sounds like i fail to complete a rep, after that rep i will either do a few rest pause reps or partials....


 So would you not take isolation for example flyes or crossovers to failure? Just the ones like bench and db incline ect?


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

Charlee Scene said:


> So would you not take isolation for example flyes or crossovers to failure? Just the ones like bench and db incline ect?


 no


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## nWo (Mar 25, 2014)

Charlee Scene said:


> So would you not take isolation for example flyes or crossovers to failure? Just the ones like bench and db incline ect?


 If you're on a bodypart split like that, best to mix up techniques. The first couple of exercises are very much Dorian Yates inspired, whereas the last two are lighter weights and volume. For example, this is what I've done on a chest day:

*DB bench press*: Couple warm up sets. Then 3-4 reps to total failure. Drop the weight to 75% of what you just used for a dropset for a few more reps. Then to 50% for a few more reps. So your sets might look like this:

20kg dumbbells for 8 reps - rest 2 mins

30kg dumbbells for 5 reps - rest 3 mins

40kg for about 3 reps to failure - no rest

30kg to failure - no rest

20kg to failure

*Incline chest press (plate loaded machine)*: Warmup set at 60-70% of workset weight. Rest 3 mins. Then train to total failure for 6-8 reps. Once failure is hit, partials. Rep to 3/4 range, then 1/2, then 1/4, just keep repping to the sticking point until you can hardly move the weight. Done.

*Incline DB flyes*: Use some sort of non-failure "cluster rep" scheme with these. I like Vince Gironda 6x6, where you take your 12RM and do 6 sets of 6 with that weight with 30 seconds rests. With 6x6, you'd aim to decrease the rest periods over time.

*Cable crossovers:* Pure pump with these. Train to failure, but train light. No need for a warmup set. Just jump straight in, set of 12-15 to failure. Rest 30 seconds, then failure again with the same weight. One more time. Chest workout done


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## Charlee Scene (Jul 6, 2010)

I'mNotAPervert! said:


> If you're on a bodypart split like that, best to mix up techniques. The first couple of exercises are very much Dorian Yates inspired, whereas the last two are lighter weights and volume. For example, this is what I've done on a chest day:
> 
> *DB bench press*: Couple warm up sets. Then 3-4 reps to total failure. Drop the weight to 75% of what you just used for a dropset for a few more reps. Then to 50% for a few more reps. So your sets might look like this:
> 
> ...


 Aww makes sence bro, I'm gonna try and incorporate into my ppl twice a week currently this is my first push for

bb bench (for strength) work up to a rpe9 and a few back of sets untill hit rpe9

db shoulder - 4 x 5-8 last set to failure

decline bench - 4 x 8-12 last set to failure

side delt raise - 3/4 x 8-12 last set to failure

inc flye - 2/3 x 10-15 last set to failure

skulls 3 x 6-8

french press 2 x 7-10

kick back 1/2 x 12-15


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## nWo (Mar 25, 2014)

Charlee Scene said:


> Aww makes sence bro, I'm gonna try and incorporate into my ppl twice a week currently this is my first push for
> 
> bb bench (for strength) work up to a rpe9 and a few back of sets untill hit rpe9
> 
> ...


 If you're on a 2x routine, might even be worth having heavy and light days, that's what I tend to do when I'm doing upper-lower type splits for example. So on the A workout I'd train under Dorian Yates principles for every exercise, hit it heavy, focus on compound exercises only getting in the big basics. Then the B workout I'd go for secondary exercises and train on higher volume, lighter weight principles like Vince Gironda's. So for 2x a week push day I'd do something like the following:

A workout - DY principles, warmup sets and then one set to total failure on everything, finish up with an intensity technique (obviously I'd advise safety pins or dumbbells for the bench press variants)

Bench press variant - 3-4 reps to failure, then drop to 75% and then 50% for dropsets (or you can rest-pause)

Incline bench variant - 6-8 reps to failure, then partials

Military press - 4-5 reps to failure, then push-press to failure

DB shoulder press - 6-8 reps to failure, then dropset

Skullcrusher - 6-8 reps to failure, then dropset

B workout - volume

Hammer strength incline chest press - Vince Gironda 6x6

DB flyes - Vince Gironda 6x12

Crossovers - 3 sets of 12-15 to near-failure, 30 seconds rest between sets

Arnold presses - Vince Gironda 6x6

Cable lateral raises - 3 sets of 12-15 to near-failure, 30 seconds rest between sets

Tricep pressdowns - Vince G 6x6

Cable overhead extensions - 3 sets of 12-15 to near-failure, 30 seconds rest between sets


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