# Lipo suction?



## solidcecil (Mar 8, 2012)

Has anyone had it?

What are your expectancies?


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## Kristina (Apr 12, 2014)

Nope... what would you want to have done?


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## solidcecil (Mar 8, 2012)

I was thinking of getting it on my lower abs.

I always hold fat there, it only goes in the last couple of weeks of prep.

It just means in the offseason I have abs then a little roll of fat.


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## 4NT5 (Jun 1, 2007)

solidcecil said:


> I was thinking of getting it on my lower abs.
> 
> I always hold fat there, it only goes in the last couple of weeks of prep.
> 
> It just means in the offseason I have abs then a little roll of fat.


Would getting lipo be temporary in this area and after time it would just return?


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## Kristina (Apr 12, 2014)

solidcecil said:


> I was thinking of getting it on my lower abs.
> 
> I always hold fat there, it only goes in the last couple of weeks of prep.
> 
> It just means in the offseason I have abs then a little roll of fat.


We have about 4 x the number of fat receptors in the abdominal region than anywhere else on the body, this is perfectly normal but the best way to work on this is to manipulate various factors that affect how our body mobilises fat and particularly our gene expression. Believe it or not, one of the most underrated issues that literally causes our body to retain abdominal fat comes from stresses on the body; whether physical or emotional. It would be an idea for you to explore these things, supplement and manage stress, increase your hydration, implement HIIT training for mobilisation of the fat cells more effectively (not sure what you've tried)... unless you're really keen on the lipo, by all means, that would be effective too!


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## Sambuca (Jul 25, 2012)

Thought using a good cosmetic surgeon for lipo is about 6k

Good post @kristina


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## A_L (Feb 17, 2012)

solidcecil said:


> I was thinking of getting it on my lower abs.
> 
> I always hold fat there, it only goes in the last couple of weeks of prep.
> 
> It just means in the offseason I have abs then a little roll of fat.


Could this be genetic? Reason I ask, is because both myself and sister have the same thing. My sister is quite slim, and back before I started lifting I had it to. I mean I still do now, I'm not as lean now though but when I had abs showing it was always there just a little podgy roll on lower abs.


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## Sambuca (Jul 25, 2012)

amurphy said:


> Would getting lipo be temporary in this area and after time it would just return?


It remove the cells that grow and shrink so U have to make an effort to get fat again to make new cells so for a bber who stays lean they probably wouldn't??


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## NoGutsNoGloryy (Jan 7, 2013)

I highly doubt it's down to genetics. OP not to be d1ck or anything but you just have to diet abit harder.


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## anabolik (Aug 19, 2010)

Genetics I guess...no matter how fat I've got on a bulk I never get a fat roll or 'belly', all that happens is my lower abs blur out slightly starting at the groin and moving up as bf increases.

I have veins on my abs right now and I'm no lower than 15% bf.

If it's that important to you go get it done mate. Though I would be wary of it coming back in a few months time and wasting my money.


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## xpower (Jul 28, 2009)

Maybe try laser lipo

How it works


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## Pinky (Sep 3, 2014)

I had it done 8 years ago. Was the worst thing i ever had. Cost £3500 had it done at Bupa in Birmingham. I was knocked out for the procedure. They took almost 2stone in fat from me.

When i came round there was no one in my room so i got out of bed, when i stood up loads of blood came from under the dressing the put on me. It was like a horror movie. Seeing all the blood, my legs went and has i went to fall a nurse caught me and put me back in bed.

The day after, the pain wasnt to bad but i couldn't sit up or anything. I had to roll on my side and sort of try and get on all 4s so i could get up.

The corset thing i had to wear for 6 weeks, i later found out was to small so i healed funny and now have loose skin on my tummy. Which i am now finding impossible to get rid of.

I had bruises everywhere, i now have little scares all over my ab and hip area from the cannula.

Would i have it again? No way!!


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## 4NT5 (Jun 1, 2007)

kristina said:


> We have about 4 x the number of fat receptors in the abdominal region than anywhere else on the body, this is perfectly normal but the best way to work on this is to manipulate various factors that affect how our body mobilises fat and particularly our gene expression. Believe it or not, one of the most underrated issues that literally causes our body to retain abdominal fat comes from stresses on the body; whether physical or emotional. It would be an idea for you to explore these things, supplement and manage stress, increase your hydration, implement HIIT training for mobilisation of the fat cells more effectively (not sure what you've tried)... unless you're really keen on the lipo, by all means, that would be effective too!


Great post!

Never thought of stress as a factor, what can you suggest for supplementing stress levels? That being said the last few weeks I have slowed down significantly my lifestyle to help.

Do you think HIIT training to be better for stubborn fat cells?


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## Kristina (Apr 12, 2014)

amurphy said:


> Great post!
> 
> Never thought of stress as a factor, what can you suggest for supplementing stress levels? That being said the last few weeks I have slowed down significantly my lifestyle to help.


Personally I'd highly recommend looking into these in particular:

Vitamin C

PhosphatidylserineALA

L-Tyrosine

Rhodiola Rosea

I've recently been to a couple of nutritional seminars, specifically on supplementation and exercise/sports/strength training and nutrition, there were some very interesting studies and phsyiological 'lessons' taught, and there was a lot of emphasis on cortisol and stress levels (and the direct effects on fat loss and body composition), it was really quite enlightening.

I'm going to select some specific information and copy and paste some things that I have learned from my books for you, because it will be a lot more elaborate than what I could explain off the top of my head, I hope this helps!

*Vitamin C*

Vitamin C (ascorbic acid) is an essential water-soluble vitamin for any intensely training athlete or dieter. It has several functions in the body, including antioxidant properties, collagen synthesis, immuno-enhancing effects, and decreasing cortisol levels. Vitamin C helps fight free radicals, which are responsible for oxidative damage in the body. Vitamin C has been shown to considerably decrease the duration of cold episodes and the severity of symptoms. If you're sick, you cannot train properly and you may lose hard-earned muscle.

Vitamin C may help reduce unwanted cortisol levels. Cortisol is a cata- bolic hormone that is secreted in times of stress, such as strenuous weight training. Vitamin C also aids in collagen synthesis. Collagen is a very impor- tant substance in the human body: it strengthens the skin, muscles, and bones, and is a primary component of ligaments and tendons. There are many studies that document vitamin C's importance for healthy ligaments and tendons, which can be critical for preventing injury and speeding recovery.

Vitamin C also plays a role in fat loss - it is important in the synthesis of the amino acid carnitine. Sufficient carnitine is important in fat metabolism, because carnitine helps transport long-chain fatty acids into the mitochon- dria for their breakdown to occur. Vitamin C also plays a key role in neuro- transmitter synthesis and cholesterol catabolism.

Vitamin C not only acts as a direct antioxidant, but it also supports vitamin E's antioxidant activity by helping regenerate the oxidized form of vitamin E. It is a water-soluble antioxidant that has been shown to lower oxidative stress caused by exer- cise and to blunt cortisol levels as well. It also seems to decrease post-work- out inflammation when taken before a workout.

One study showed that taking 2 grams (g) of vitamin C reduced oxidative stress and significantly enhanced recovery. This means you may be able to decrease rest time and get back in the game quicker. Of course, there are numerous studies on its immune boosting effects.

Dosage: Taking 1-3 g daily in divided doses, especially 500 milligrams (mg) to 1 g of vitamin C one hour before training can be helpful.

*Alpha-lipoic Acid (ALA)*

Also known as lipoic and thioctic acid, alpha-lipoic acid (ALA) is a sulfur-containing antioxidant produced naturally by the body. It can be found in foods such as liver, brewer's yeast, and potatoes. Alpha-lipoic acid is both fat- and water-soluble, a powerful antioxidant known as a "universal" antioxidant.

Several studies mention that ALA supplementation can reduce oxidative stress and may help maintain struc- tural integrity of cell organelles. So, basically it can help protect cells from damage. One Polish study from 2005 discussed lipoic acid as "a drug of the future" and described its powerful antioxidant effects. What's interesting is that it is actually a prescription medicine in Europe, where it is used to treat diabetic neuropathy.

Dosage: Taking 100 mg of ALA 2-3 times daily can be effective in fighting free radicals. MRM and PrimaForce make some good ALA products.

*L-Tyrosine*

The amino acid tyrosine is found in dietary proteins, particularly casein. Many athletes and military personnel have benefited greatly from the use of this underrated supplement.

L-tyrosine may be useful as a pre-workout energy booster, for mental fatigue or stress, and to increase cog- nitive function and focus. Tyrosine acts as a direct precursor to the neurotransmitters dopamine, norepinephrine, and epinephrine. It works mainly by stimulating depleted norepinephrine levels in stressed or mental- ly fatigued individuals. The Naval Aerospace Medical Research Laboratory, in Pensacola, Florida, found that tyrosine played a key role in improving mood and performance in military personnel who are stressed continuous- ly over time. Tyrosine has been called the "focus" supplement because it seems to enhance mental focus and mental clarity. This is especially useful before a workout as mental concentration is essential to sports and exer- cise performance. Tyrosine has clearly been shown to enhance cognitive performance in stressful situations.

Tyrosine has been used and extensively researched by the military for years. Research on troops indicates that supplementation with tyrosine significantly lowers stress and fatigue in extremely stressful situations. It is also thought to eliminate any decrease in performance during sustained military operations. It seems to delay mental fatigue and it boosts exercise performance. Since hard weight training is considered a stress to the body, l-tyrosine supplementation may be very useful in improving performance and reducing mental stress. Some recent research confirms the performance-enhancing effects of tyrosine in exercise.

Dosage: The recommended dose is 1-3 grams (g) of L-tyrosine, on an empty stomach, one hour before training.

*Rhodiola rosea*

Rhodiola rosea, a Russian herb also known as golden root or arctic root, was one of the best kept secrets in the dietary supplement world. This herb is what's known as an adaptogen, a compound that allows your body to adapt to stress and normalize function. This herb has been shown to significantly allow for improvements in athletic performance.

The majority of research performed on Rhodiola rosea has been geared toward improving physical and mental performance. It has been shown to delay fatigue and improve energy utilization during exercise. Muscle proteins and glutamic acid levels are enhanced when taking this supplement. It has even been linked to increased creatine phosphate and ATP (energy) levels. All of this leads scientists to believe that this supplement may increase strength and lean body mass. Researchers speculate that Rhodiola rosea helps reduce the stress that occurs secondary to exercise by stimulating the parasympathetic nervous system, which causes relaxation (as opposed to the sympathetic nervous system, which causes stimulation).

The results of thirty-five years of intensive clinical studies on Rhodiola rosea performed at leading Russian and Scandinavian clinics show that this nutrient can help increase protein synthesis, remove ammonia from the blood and have a detoxifying effect, increase blood supply to the muscles and the brain, and improve athletic performance.

Dosage: A typical dose is 100 mg, taken three times daily, especially after a hard workout.

*Phosphatidylserine*

Phosphatidylserine has been shown to have several positive effects in the body, including neurological enhancement, protection of cell membranes and boosting optimum cellular function, and cortisol suppression.

Research has shown that phosphatidylserine may be a powerful cortisol- suppressing agent. PS can lower ACTH (adrenocorticotrophin hormone) after exercise, which can help lower muscle breakdown secondary to exer- cise. According to several studies, PS supplementation can blunt cortisol release significantly secondary to stress. In fact, in one study, supplementa- tion of PS at 800 mg daily reduced cortisol levels by 30 percent compared to a placebo following heavy resistance training.

For athletic performance and bodybuilding purposes, a dose of 400 mg to 800 mg daily during periods of intense training can be effective. Remem- ber, during times of intense training is when you can see and feel the effects of PS supplementation. The best times to take PS for cortisol suppression are right after training and/or thirty minutes before bedtime.


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## ashmo (Jul 1, 2011)

Sambuca said:


> Thought using a good cosmetic surgeon for lipo is about 6k
> 
> Good post @kristina


Plastic surgery

I had my gyno surgery done there excellent clinic.


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## Kristina (Apr 12, 2014)

amurphy said:


> Great post!
> 
> Do you think HIIT training to be better for stubborn fat cells?


Oh yes absolutely! This is what it's very effective for in particular. HIIT is very effective in mobilising fat for energy (yes, those stubborn fat cells that can be resistant). Basically, it puts the body under a lot of stress (similar to weight training, for example) and ellicits adaptation to this stress, so produces large amounts of hormones (growth hormone, adrenaline and noradrenaline). These are essential for mobilising fat stores (note, this is where the magic happens). Adrenaline and noradrenaline are the main hormones for mobilising fat from your fat cells in order for you to be able to use the fat for energy.

HIIT also results in an increased metabolic rate, which stays elevated for hours (and in some studies up to 48 hours post training) - as oppose to low intensity, which in actual fact lowers your metabolic rate as your body adapts to the 'extra' energy expenditure.

HIIT also increases the number of mitochondria in your cells (mitochondia is in your skeletal and muscle cells, and this is what provides energy: they are your powerhouses). How this works is because the 'sprints' that you perform during HIIT are bringing your heart rate up to such an incredibly high degree, this really pushes your system to very taxing levels and high thresholds, which means your body needs to work super hard to effectively use oxygen during the exercise. This in turn starts to push your body to improve the VO2max (the VO2 max is the rate at which the heart, lungs, and muscles can effectively use oxygen during exercise, basically your 'aerobic capacity').

Over time, your HIIT training results in greater adaptation as your body improves its VO2 max, and this in turn rusults in MUCH greater mitochondrial enzyme production. The more mitochondria you have, the more energy you burn - hence the raise in metabolism, because your body will be burning more energy with the greater increase in mitochondria.

Some people just implement a couple of hit sessions into their training per week and this is a great starting point (depending on goals). If you have a huge goal to reach and want to push it even further, a really good protocol is to do your HIIT (for example, 7 sprints (15 seconds AS HARD AS YOU CAN GO followed by 90 seconds rest, which will take no more than 10-15 mins including warm up etc..) and then continue with a low-intensity phase straight after the HIIT, for a further 20-30 minutes or so (taking advantage of the mobilisation of fat cells for energy).


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## SK50 (Apr 7, 2013)

kristina said:


> We have about 4 x the number of fat receptors in the abdominal region than anywhere else on the body, this is perfectly normal but the best way to work on this is to manipulate various factors that affect how our body mobilises fat and particularly our gene expression. Believe it or not, one of the most underrated issues that literally causes our body to retain abdominal fat comes from stresses on the body; whether physical or emotional. It would be an idea for you to explore these things, supplement and manage stress, increase your hydration, implement HIIT training for mobilisation of the fat cells more effectively (not sure what you've tried)... unless you're really keen on the lipo, by all means, that would be effective too!


I agree with this. I have been finding it hard as hell to get ripped recently, while in the past I have always found it easy.

I had a 4 point cortisol saliva test done - cortisol was through the roof.

My conclusion for my personal situation: overtraining, stress and stimulant abuse.

Edit - I forgot to add I also have symptoms of pseudocushings - facial fat, minor buffalo hump and disproportionate abdominal fat


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## Kristina (Apr 12, 2014)

SK50 said:


> I agree with this. I have been finding it hard as hell to get ripped recently, while in the past I have always found it easy.
> 
> I had a 4 point cortisol saliva test done - cortisol was through the roof.
> 
> ...


Interesting stuff; out of curiosity, have you ever tried implementing anything specific to minimise your stress levels?


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## SK50 (Apr 7, 2013)

kristina said:


> Interesting stuff; out of curiosity, have you ever tried implementing anything specific to minimise your stress levels?


I have suspected a cortisol issue for a while. I have tried cortisol reducing supps, e.g. high dosage vit C, ashwagandha, rhodiola, phosphatidyl serine, aspirin pre bed, (and the rest) for quite some time.

I have a high stress job and life and I probably overtrain. I've just cut down from 1-2g caffeine ED to 0g and am proud of that. I'm taking 1 - 2 weeks off training right now. I have been prescribed benzos/z-drugs for a year to cope with the insomnia, but I really think cortisol is the issue after all.

Should be interesting. I think I just abused the DMAA/dendrobium etc and trained too hard. After a deadlift day I have anhedonia and a "hangover" for 2 days and yet I still can't sleep.

The facial fat and buffalo hump is not my imagination.

I don't think I have cushings.

Also I have low white blood count (below range - neutropenia) as I mentioned in another thread -- I am hoping this is all related!


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## SK50 (Apr 7, 2013)

One other thing to add which may be more relevant to the OP:

I am lean as hell everywhere, stritations on delts, pecs etc, but my face is fatter than normal. At this level of body fat I usually have facial dimples - they aren't there. And my abs are blurry. Even on a hard cut on juice + GHRP the face/abdominal fat doesn't die.

So, at least for me, this seems to point to the cortisol issue and disproportionate fat distribution.


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## Kristina (Apr 12, 2014)

SK50 said:


> I have suspected a cortisol issue for a while. I have tried cortisol reducing supps, e.g. high dosage vit C, ashwagandha, rhodiola, phosphatidyl serine, aspirin pre bed, (and the rest) for quite some time.
> 
> I have a high stress job and life and I probably overtrain. I've just cut down from 1-2g caffeine ED to 0g and am proud of that. I'm taking 1 - 2 weeks off training right now. I have been prescribed benzos/z-drugs for a year to cope with the insomnia, but I really think cortisol is the issue after all.
> 
> ...


Hmmm yeah I see what you mean, that's pretty tough. I'd be curious to see how it's affected your face and hump, any chance you could PM or post a photo? This is the first time I've heard of cushings, but from what I've read it causes 'obesity from the waist up', which certainly isn't your issue.

Have you considered that the facial 'fat' is water retention? This could be related to so many things, and particularly aas.

Good to hear you've taken some time out.

I think it's highly likely that the insomnia is very much related. What about nootropics and just basic supps like 5-HTP and getting all your b-vits and minerals in check, is that something you could try?

I used to abuse things like dmaa as well, but not long-term and at some stage just dropped all stims altogether, including caffeine (except once in the morning)... I found it had the most profound effect on life and sleep in general.

What do you do for work?


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## 4NT5 (Jun 1, 2007)

kristina said:


> Personally I'd highly recommend looking into these in particular:
> 
> Vitamin C
> 
> ...


I have been supplementing with vit C and will look into the other suggestions

Thanks


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## SK50 (Apr 7, 2013)

kristina said:


> Hmmm yeah I see what you mean, that's pretty tough. I'd be curious to see how it's affected your face and hump, any chance you could PM or post a photo? This is the first time I've heard of cushings, but from what I've read it causes 'obesity from the waist up', which certainly isn't your issue.
> 
> Have you considered that the facial 'fat' is water retention? This could be related to so many things, and particularly aas.
> 
> ...


I'm on a 250mg test cruise using letrozole and my E2 is dialed in using blood tests. It isn't AAS water. I have tried HCTZ and lasix to double check. I have also come off AAS completely to see what happens. It's fat. Recent photos of me make my face look really full, and the buffalo hump around where the squat bar goes can be pinched about 1/2" thick which is a classic sign of hypercortisolism. Lower ab area is disproportionately thick.

I have used phenibut, but that gives me a similar effect to benzos. 5htp does nothing for me. SSRIs help, but seem to only mask the problem. I still have horrific night time waking. I think the only solution is to rest.

EDIT - will pm you with job role and pics - paranoid.

I have been for years, but I think the recent year of stim/caffeine/overtraining has pushed my cortisol over the edge

I am going to repeat my cortisol tests in a month after resting and easing back into training. I plan to deload every 4th week from thereon and avoid stims. I need to take this seriously as it is impacting QOL


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## Kristina (Apr 12, 2014)

SK50 said:


> I'm on a 250mg test cruise using letrozole and my E2 is dialed in using blood tests. It isn't AAS water. I have tried HCTZ and lasix to double check. I have also come off AAS completely to see what happens. It's fat. Recent photos of me make my face look really full, and the buffalo hump around where the squat bar goes can be pinched about 1/2" thick which is a classic sign of hypercortisolism. Lower ab area is disproportionately thick.
> 
> I have used phenibut, but that gives me a similar effect to benzos. 5htp does nothing for me. SSRIs help, but seem to only mask the problem. I still have horrific night time waking. I think the only solution is to rest.
> 
> ...


Heya!

The dropbox links don't work for some reason (possibly has a privacy lock on it or something?).

How long have you had the issue for? (I can see you say at least the last year has got progressively worse, but how long would you say you've had symptoms on face/neck?).

Also, with regards to the supplementation, you mention you've tried it for a 'long time', what sort of time frame are you talking? I'm fascinated because a lot of my current interest and research is related to the endocrine system and in general I take an interest in supplementation/nutrition etc... but not in the 'typical' bodybuilding sense, if you know what I mean.

It's definitely a good idea to do as much as possible within your control to reduce the environmental stress on your body, because there are a lot of things that we will never be able to control, so taking some time out and of course staying away from stims is a smart move and should reap its benefits soon enough. How long have you stopped all stims for now?

Thanks for taking the time to share all your info, especially on the main forums - stuff like this creates a richer source for information and potentially benefit others.


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## Theseus (Feb 27, 2014)

solidcecil said:


> Has anyone had it?
> 
> What are your expectancies?


if there were simply local fat around the waistline and you are rather lean overall. you can try Aqualyx injections instead. it is a form of lipolysis, licensed in the UK. cost around £350-500 per injection, may need 3-5 injections with 3-4 weeks interval.

something else to research before you are set for liposuction which will give you an entry point scar regardless.


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## Shaftie (Apr 5, 2014)

There's also cryolipolysis and ultrasound lipolysis in addition to laser lipolysis and injections. I'm looking into these noninvasive methods myself as they're a lot cheaper than surgery.


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## Kristina (Apr 12, 2014)

Shaftie said:


> There's also cryolipolysis and ultrasound lipolysis in addition to laser lipolysis and injections. I'm looking into these noninvasive methods myself as they're a lot cheaper than surgery.


Hmmm I don't know, I've always been very skeptical about all those laser or 'non-invasive' treatments. I don't think they work whatsoever. There's so much rubbish out there being marketed to highly impressionable people who just waste money on that crap.


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## Shaftie (Apr 5, 2014)

Kristina said:


> Hmmm I don't know, I've always been very skeptical about all those laser or 'non-invasive' treatments. I don't think they work whatsoever. There's so much rubbish out there being marketed to highly impressionable people who just waste money on that crap.


I can tell you I was just as skeptical - so much so that it took me a long time to get round to actually reading about them because I just assumed they were scams and snake oil.

The least invasive/effective is laser - you need quite a few sessions before you'll notice the difference. It permeablises the adipose cell membranes, causing some of their fat to leak out, which is then cleared away by the body (in much the same way as oil-based depot injections I imagine).The cells get smaller but they don't die so the excess fat can come back.

The next one up in terms of 'harshness' is cryolipolysis - the cold causes the fat cells to undergo apoptosis (programmed cell death) so they're got rid of in a controlled fashion. Like with liposuction, the cells are gone.

Ultrasound and the injections are the harshest - they smash up the cells (causing necrosis rather than apoptosis). But even those carry far fewer risk than getting sliced open under general anaesthetic. Again the cells are completely removed.

Ultrasound and laser have also been used in conjuction with surgical liposuction as they liquefy the fat, making it easier to suck out. But this is a different thing from the noninvasive methods. The main limitation of all of the noninvasive methods is that they only work well on small patches of excess fat. So if you've got a belly or your thighs are too big they're not going to work. If on the other hand your BMI is low and you just want rid of e.g. stubborn love handles, they are ideal.

Here are a number of articles that I can recommend to anyone interested in finding out more about these methods:

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B3IbJv_UNHlWTllDeTR6XzU4T2c/edit?usp=docslist_api

It's important to make sure that the method you're reading about on, say, a website is the same as the method described in these articles - there are indeed lots of other offerings that on the surface look like the real thing but are truly a scam. IR therapy is one example, or anything that talks about 'tightening collagen' or 'stimulating fat'. Anything that uses vibration is another.

For laser lipolysis check the wattage of the machine they use and the wavelength - it needs to be at least 10mW (class IIIB) and around 635nM (red). For any of the methods it's worth asking the make and model of the device when booking a session so you can google that it's the right thing.


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