# Cals in cals out I call ball ****



## Ricky12345 (Jun 13, 2012)

So many off u are convinced that no matter what genetics u have body type etc the only real way to lose weight is cals in cals out I worked out I needed 2700 to maintain I'm on 2200 with a few little slip ups over Xmas I'm not doing cardio and am on aas but can't really see what damage that would make all my diet consists off is wheetabix whey powder chicken brown rice oats natraul Penut butter and jelly and a banana after workout we'll 3 weeks in 12lbs up ???

I think it's a bit off a porkie pie and some people do need to cut carbs etc and carbs do make us fat not

really gonna moan to much as I'm making some good growth but aswell as that a belly is growing there for sure


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## Dazza (Aug 7, 2010)

Well there are many other factors at play, last friday i was 12lbs up yet diet wise was still the same bar one roast and a few chocs.

It'll be water weight, probably as you weren't as active so the old body had bit of a recharge to what it's true weight is.


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## Hudson (Nov 30, 2012)

Ricky12345 said:


> the only real way to lose weight is cals in cals out I worked out I needed 2700 to maintain I'm on 2200


If I'm on aas then dropping 500 cals and i'll probably maintain, keep my cals the same and weight piles on, I almost always drop cals to the end of a cycle and try to recomp a bit. I say drop the cals further if you're wanting to cut, another 300 should do it.

Also are you taking an AI? If not as already stated a lot will be water weight.


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## Ian_Montrose (Nov 13, 2007)

I think there is no getting around the simple logic that if you burn more energy than you consume you must lose weight, and vice versa. However, I personally believe that calorie counting is fraught with issues and for the vast majority of us likely to be highly inaccurate. Take for example calculating how much energy we burn. Most people use an online calculator for this. I've just had a look at the one on iiym.com which I beleive is quite popular. It worked out my BMR and TDEE from just my sex, age, weight, height and how often I train. How can that possibly be accurate? It takes no account of how much lean muscle I have, how active I really am during the day, how long I sleep for, whether I walk to work or drive, how many calories I burn to keep warm (do I spend most of my day in a heated room etc). I could go on but you should get what I'm driving at. I would hazard a guess that the calculation could easily be off by as much as 500 calories either way. Then we have to consider our body's remarkable capacity for adjusting energy expenditure to meet supply. Cut your calories and whether you like it or not your body will start down-regulating to match.

My advice would be to use such calculators as a guide but above all else monitor your body and adjust diet in response to how it changes.


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## Ricky12345 (Jun 13, 2012)

Hudson said:


> If I'm on aas then dropping 500 cals and i'll probably maintain, keep my cals the same and weight piles on, I almost always drop cals to the end of a cycle and try to recomp a bit. I say drop the cals further if you're wanting to cut, another 300 should do it.
> 
> Also are you taking an AI? If not as already stated a lot will be water weight.


Even though it is annoying and I did plan on cutting I think I'd rather just stick to what I'm doing than to drop to 1800 cals a day i couldn't do it

Ai masteron and nolva if a lot is water weight I guess I can stop bitching and the water will drop off when stopping aas ?


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## jonnym4 (May 8, 2011)

Your metabolism must be terrible, probably dieting on too little calories causing your body to down regulate and with Christmas it will be storing as much as possible


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## Hudson (Nov 30, 2012)

Ricky12345 said:


> Even though it is annoying and I did plan on cutting I think I'd rather just stick to what I'm doing than to drop to 1800 cals a day i couldn't do it
> 
> Ai masteron and nolva if a lot is water weight I guess I can stop bitching and the water will drop off when stopping aas ?


Correct me if I'm wrong fellas (I've not got loads of experience) But if you've got your AI dosage right you shouldn't be banging on a lot of water weight? You should also try to control estrogen as it is a *LOT* more suppressive than test and will make recovery harder


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## Ricky12345 (Jun 13, 2012)

Fck me checked scales again this morning like 17lbs up I don't recon I could lose weight on clen dnp and 1000 cals a day


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## Ginger Ben (Oct 5, 2010)

Ricky12345 said:


> Fck me checked scales again this morning like 17lbs up I don't recon I could lose weight on clen dnp and 1000 cals a day


5lbs up since you made this thread yesterday? Lol


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## Ricky12345 (Jun 13, 2012)

Ginger Ben said:


> 5lbs up since you made this thread yesterday? Lol


I hadn't checked in a few days mate but tbf I'm proberly gaining 1-2lbs a day


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## Ginger Ben (Oct 5, 2010)

Ricky12345 said:


> I hadn't checked in a few days mate but tbf I'm proberly gaining 1-2lbs a day


You packing the water on?


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## Ricky12345 (Jun 13, 2012)

Ginger Ben said:


> You packing the water on?


Ye must be mate planned on cutting on this cycle and dropping a stone but I'll be lucky to only gain 4 stone at this rate


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## TELBOR (Feb 20, 2012)

Weetabix gains


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## Ginger Ben (Oct 5, 2010)

Ricky12345 said:


> Ye must be mate planned on cutting on this cycle and dropping a stone but I'll be lucky to only gain 4 stone at this rate


Lol something's not right there then. Water intake not high enough, bit more junk over Xmas than you think, ai not right dose?


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## Ricky12345 (Jun 13, 2012)

Ginger Ben said:


> Lol something's not right there then. Water intake not high enough, bit more junk over Xmas than you think, ai not right dose?


I'm sure it's carb intake mate I'm majerly carb sensitive so think I'm gonna have to adjust them thing is though I was training 2 times a day so carbs for pre and post workout that's 4 meals there lol


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## kitinboots (Oct 20, 2013)

Ian_Montrose said:


> I think there is no getting around the simple logic that if you burn more energy than you consume you must lose weight, and vice versa. However, I personally believe that calorie counting is fraught with issues and for the vast majority of us likely to be highly inaccurate. Take for example calculating how much energy we burn. Most people use an online calculator for this. I've just had a look at the one on iiym.com which I beleive is quite popular. It worked out my BMR and TDEE from just my sex, age, weight, height and how often I train. How can that possibly be accurate? It takes no account of how much lean muscle I have, how active I really am during the day, how long I sleep for, whether I walk to work or drive, how many calories I burn to keep warm (do I spend most of my day in a heated room etc). I could go on but you should get what I'm driving at. I would hazard a guess that the calculation could easily be off by as much as 500 calories either way. Then we have to consider our body's remarkable capacity for adjusting energy expenditure to meet supply. Cut your calories and whether you like it or not your body will start down-regulating to match.
> 
> My advice would be to use such calculators as a guide but above all else monitor your body and adjust diet in response to how it changes.


I see these calculators as a good starting point, and then you adjust depending on how your body reacts. We have to learn what works for us through trial and error, as even if you work it out at one point, 6 months later it could be completely different. I can tell you right now that in the past 6 months I've gone from maintaining at 1800kcal to 2300+kcal


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## Dark sim (May 18, 2013)

Ricky12345 said:


> So many off u are convinced that no matter what genetics u have body type etc the only real way to lose weight is cals in cals out I worked out I needed 2700 to maintain I'm on 2200 with a few little slip ups over Xmas I'm not doing cardio and am on aas but can't really see what damage that would make all my diet consists off is wheetabix whey powder chicken brown rice oats natraul Penut butter and jelly and a banana after workout we'll 3 weeks in 12lbs up ???
> 
> I think it's a bit off a porkie pie and some people do need to cut carbs etc and carbs do make us fat not
> 
> really gonna moan to much as I'm making some good growth but aswell as that a belly is growing there for sure


Maybe you worked out your maintenance wrong?

Whats your BW & BF, with pics.

Post cycle too with doses and AI useage.


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## jammie2013 (Nov 14, 2013)

TDEE calculators are horrible and self assessment of energy intake is horrible. Compare self-recorded energy intake to doubly labelled water (gold standard of energy intake assessment) and you'll be shocked. Most massively underestimate energy intake, especially those gaining weight. I'll post the studies if you want them but you're looking up to 50% underestimation


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## Major Eyeswater (Nov 2, 2013)

I think this is more to do with your water balance than anything else Mate.

All the controlled studies done in proper scientific conditions show that caloric balance is the primary driver in fat gain or loss.


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## Ricky12345 (Jun 13, 2012)

Major Eyeswater said:


> I think this is more to do with your water balance than anything else Mate.
> 
> All the controlled studies done in proper scientific conditions show that caloric balance is the primary driver in fat gain or loss.


How could I control water mate if I drunk anymore water a day id drown and carbs are good source off carbs but maybe I'm

Doing to many off them ps if all the water will fall off when I stop cycle I won't be to bothered for now just don't wanna get really fat plus side strength and gains are coming on we'll


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## 2004mark (Oct 26, 2013)

You can't get around the basic laws of energy conservation. If you use more energy than you're eating the surplus has to be made up somewhere i.e. the breakdown of tissue.

Of course as others have mentioned, water can come into the equation, and also weight loss/gain doesn't take into consideration the ratio of fat v muscle. But getting your calories right has to be foundation of any diet.


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## Major Eyeswater (Nov 2, 2013)

Ricky12345 said:


> How could I control water mate if I drunk anymore water a day id drown and carbs are good source off carbs but maybe I'm Doing to many off them ps if all the water will fall off when I stop cycle I won't be to bothered for now just don't wanna get really fat plus side strength and gains are coming on we'll


Wish I could help mate, but I have zero experience of this. I thrive on a fairly high carb diet, and I'm on my first cycle of 300mg pw, so water retention isn't a problem. Not using an AI either.


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## SkinnyJ (Apr 21, 2012)

It's not bull**** it's how it works. Do not confuse water gain and loss with muscle or fat.

Op post up some pics of your current physique. You've been on here a while I've seen you do various cycles so would be interesting to see where you are at.


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## Ricky12345 (Jun 13, 2012)

SkinnyJ said:


> It's not bull**** it's how it works. Do not confuse water gain and loss with muscle or fat.
> 
> Op post up some pics of your current physique. You've been on here a while I've seen you do various cycles so would be interesting to see where you are at.


I'm a fat **** that's we're I'm at and it's winding me up


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## TELBOR (Feb 20, 2012)

Ricky12345 said:


> I'm a fat **** that's we're I'm at and it's winding me up


Pop the pics up then fatty 

I doubt you're fat mate, most of us on here either think we're fat or skinny - the joys of this hobby :lol:


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## Ricky12345 (Jun 13, 2012)

Am gonna go keto from tomoro I don't care how hard work it is something has to give


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## simonthepieman (Jun 11, 2012)

Mate, you spin your wheels more that bike repair man at Halford.


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## Mark2021 (Apr 13, 2012)

Fck going by weight, go by look in mirror


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## Ricky12345 (Jun 13, 2012)

simonthepieman said:


> Mate, you spin your wheels more that bike repair man at Halford.


Na was smashing it 2 months ago before I got on cycle then diet haven't even changed and just blown up like a water melon I don't want a big power lifting belly wanna be shredded


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## Ricky12345 (Jun 13, 2012)

Mark2021 said:


> Fck going by weight, go by look in mirror


Mirrors a horrible sight mate I've grown and put some size on but a fck off mass belly with that


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## murphy2010 (Dec 17, 2010)

I ate 2000 calories, made sure I got 200-250g protein a day, and then ate whatever else I wanted. I did this and lost 3 stone in 3 months doing this


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## Ricky12345 (Jun 13, 2012)

murphy2010 said:


> I ate 2000 calories, made sure I got 200-250g protein a day, and then ate whatever else I wanted. I did this and lost 3 stone in 3 months doing this


Was u on many carbs mate


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## murphy2010 (Dec 17, 2010)

Ricky12345 said:


> Was u on many carbs mate


yes, I have too much of a sweet tooth to not do


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## sneeky_dave (Apr 2, 2013)

Op. That is 100% bro-science you speak


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## Marshan (Aug 27, 2010)

Your cycle is making you hugely nitrogen positive is my guess. What are you running?


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## braxbro (Aug 6, 2013)

Is OP on cycle? Of course the weight will go on.


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## IronMaiden (Mar 31, 2010)

I'm very sceptical about this cals topic. Yes it may be the basics etc but it's not everything. I believe genetics are a massive part.

Iv tried counting cals and macros a few times to cut fat and shred up. Every time I become very weak and lost a lot of muscle. The fat hardly budged. Training hard and diet all in check. I think it's hard as a natty to find exactly what works and what dosnt. Green tea for example has always made me sluggish and drowsy. Cuttin carbs makes me lose strength where I know many people that are fine. This all has to be genetic.


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## funkdocta (May 29, 2013)

Ricky12345 said:


> So many off u are convinced that no matter what genetics u have body type etc the only real way to lose weight is cals in cals out I worked out I needed 2700 to maintain I'm on 2200 with a few little slip ups over Xmas I'm not doing cardio and am on aas but can't really see what damage that would make all my diet consists off is wheetabix whey powder chicken brown rice oats natraul Penut butter and jelly and a banana after workout we'll 3 weeks in 12lbs up ???
> 
> I think it's a bit off a porkie pie and some people do need to cut carbs etc and carbs do make us fat not
> 
> really gonna moan to much as I'm making some good growth but aswell as that a belly is growing there for sure


Its not just cals in cals out. People have difference insulin responses and thus carbs effect them differently. Also two people of two different weights and body composition can do the exact same exercise and burn different cals. The basic logic holds true but there are many variables to take into consideration.


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## braxbro (Aug 6, 2013)

There are two guys at work skinny as beanpoles,they binge on absolute CRAP all day and they don't lift. I mean doughnuts, cake, sweets, packets of nuts, cheese,etc There is not a chance in hell their exercise level is anywhere CLOSE to being able to burn off the food they eat and yet how are they so skinny? This is after watching them eat like this for two years. How can one eat way above one's maintenance level to such an extent and not visibly put any fat or muscle on. Reason? Genetics.

Very frustrating when I'm eating so impeccably and its taking a long ass time to cut. Granted you don't put fat on overnight and its lengthy, just annoying as hell when other people were eating like I was and they put on next to no fat in the process.


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## 2H3ENCH4U (May 23, 2012)

IMO I would say you are carb sensitive which is causing you to produce insulin and therefore store fat.

I would look at you carbs in general including eating low GI carbs and considering the times you eat them.

Try to only have carbs first thing in the morning and pre / post workout and limiting them in the evening, replace the lost cals with increased protein intake.

Realistically to get the shredded look you need to do cardio, dieting alone will work eventually but cardio will help no end.

Either that or you are really not being honest with yourself when counting your cals and maybe missing or underestimating how many little "treats" your having in a day.


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## Ricky12345 (Jun 13, 2012)

2H3ENCH4U said:


> IMO I would say you are carb sensitive which is causing you to produce insulin and therefore store fat.
> 
> I would look at you carbs in general including eating low GI carbs and considering the times you eat them.
> 
> ...


Im gonna be honest I binge on carbs a lot I was going to do a keto diet at the start off the cycle I'm on but didn't want to not gain any muscle but 6 weeks in I've gained some good size and awsome strength along with a fair bit off body fat so for the last 6 weeks I'm going to do keto


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## Ricky12345 (Jun 13, 2012)

mixerD1 said:


> Your cycle is making you hugely nitrogen positive is my guess. What are you running?


I'm running test tren mast mate


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## Boshlop (Apr 1, 2012)

i think a lot of ti has to do with food and sensitivity, you see a lot of "skinny fat" that train a lot, but just end up with a pot belly from not eating enough to gain muscle but bad enough to gain fat and bloat..

not saying this is you ricky but it does sound like your body might be taking on a hell of a lot of water and fat from this cycle. you considering trying a proper low carb diet to see how your body adjusts?


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## 2H3ENCH4U (May 23, 2012)

Ricky12345 said:


> Im gonna be honest I binge on carbs a lot I was going to do a keto diet at the start off the cycle I'm on but didn't want to not gain any muscle but 6 weeks in I've gained some good size and awsome strength along with a fair bit off body fat so for the last 6 weeks I'm going to do keto


There in lies your problem, the PED's only do so much and you need to get your diet in check.

You have a goal in mind and need to focus your efforts and curb your carbing.

I'm running the same compounds as you along with a 500-700 cal deficit (mainly through cardio) and I am the most shredded I have ever been.

Save your carb binges for a weekly cheat meal and introduce some post weight steady state cardio and you should see a massive improvement beacuse the carbs alone will cause you to store water and make you look bloated.


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## Ricky12345 (Jun 13, 2012)

Josh Heslop said:


> i think a lot of ti has to do with food and sensitivity, you see a lot of "skinny fat" that train a lot, but just end up with a pot belly from not eating enough to gain muscle but bad enough to gain fat and bloat..
> 
> not saying this is you ricky but it does sound like your body might be taking on a hell of a lot of water and fat from this cycle. you considering trying a proper low carb diet to see how your body adjusts?


Ye mate was looking into it last night and I'm going to give keto a shot I've said I'm gonna try a few times before and failed but I'm going to get my **** in gear today so far so good I just hope I can still be beating pb I see a lot off guys on forums saying on keto there still over there cals on and gaining size and strength and dropping body fat so gotta be worth a go


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## Boshlop (Apr 1, 2012)

Ricky12345 said:


> Ye mate was looking into it last night and I'm going to give keto a shot I've said I'm gonna try a few times before and failed but I'm going to get my **** in gear today so far so good I just hope I can still be beating pb I see a lot off guys on forums saying on keto there still over there cals on and gaining size and strength and dropping body fat so gotta be worth a go


i swear by keto for cutting down, if you stick to it 100% then at the end when your leaner and have a full reefed day or two your body looks amazing.

if your on gear and keto i do find that strength goes up, you are only losing body far so end up with a higher lean mass %, so less body to have to fuel ect, more energy straight into the muscles, better fitness in my exp too.

give keto a shot for a while, if you find it hard to stick to swap to timed carbs, exactly the same diet, add in carbs after training, simple really


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## 2H3ENCH4U (May 23, 2012)

Ricky12345 said:


> Ye mate was looking into it last night and I'm going to give keto a shot I've said I'm gonna try a few times before and failed but I'm going to get my **** in gear today so far so good I just hope I can still be beating pb I see a lot off guys on forums saying on keto there still over there cals on and gaining size and strength and dropping body fat so gotta be worth a go


Even eating as low as I am below maitenance I am still as strong as ever, best thing about Tren IMO.

Dont worry too much about the weight your moving unless you want a be a powerlifter, bodybuilding is about aesthetics not weight, if I could make gains / progress using just one 5kg dumbell then I would.


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## Ricky12345 (Jun 13, 2012)

Josh Heslop said:


> i swear by keto for cutting down, if you stick to it 100% then at the end when your leaner and have a full reefed day or two your body looks amazing.
> 
> if your on gear and keto i do find that strength goes up, you are only losing body far so end up with a higher lean mass %, so less body to have to fuel ect, more energy straight into the muscles, better fitness in my exp too.
> 
> give keto a shot for a while, if you find it hard to stick to swap to timed carbs, exactly the same diet, add in carbs after training, simple really


Nice one mate sounds good and I like the fact u have had success with it sounds more promising I'll let you know how it goes


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## Boshlop (Apr 1, 2012)

Ricky12345 said:


> Nice one mate sounds good and I like the fact u have had success with it sounds more promising I'll let you know how it goes


once i eventually get the progress pics sorted im making a log, you can see the effect it has, going for comp personally though so i might be a tad stricter than the average person


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