# Assistance Work



## rsd147 (Nov 14, 2012)

What are people's assistance work once they have done their main compound lift?

Currently doing Wendlers 531 and enjoying it but struggling to find out what assistance work to do so wanting some ideas. Did the big but boring but wasn't enough and don't really enjoy it, trying to focus on weaknesses etc


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## Bataz (Jan 21, 2014)

I follow more of a push/pull/legs routine so that incorporates my assistance really. I used to do loads of exercises but have scaled it right back to the following:

*LEGS:*

Squat, Leg Press, Hamstring Curls, Calf Raises.

*PULL:*

Dead Lift, DB Row, Pull down, bicep curl.

*PUSH:*

Bench, DB incline press, DB/BB OHP, Tricep push down.


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## rsd147 (Nov 14, 2012)

Well I used to do PPL routine but now doing the 531 and want to do more powerlifting based routines. Just unsure as to what movements I should do. Not sure how beneficial it is doing 50-60% of my 1rm for 5x10 of the same movement? I think my weaknesses are:

Bench - Mid way point

Squat - Weaknesses is at the bottom so doing paused squats

Deadlift - is the initial lift of the ground

Military Press - Unsure as of yet so just doing more sets ( Big but Boring)

Not sure where to look etc


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## Bataz (Jan 21, 2014)

What I do is still geared for Powerlifting, just the assistance for a particular lift isn't always performed on the same day as the compound it's intended for. For example I do rows on deadlift day which are an assistance ex for my bench.


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## Bataz (Jan 21, 2014)

But if your struggling for mid way on chest then do pin press or floor press. For from the floor strength on dead lift include leg press.

also I'm probably the only person in the world that doesn't like 531 lol


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## big (Sep 14, 2004)

rsd147 said:


> Well I used to do PPL routine but now doing the 531 and want to do more powerlifting based routines. Just unsure as to what movements I should do. Not sure how beneficial it is doing 50-60% of my 1rm for 5x10 of the same movement? I think my weaknesses are:
> 
> Bench - Mid way point
> 
> ...


5x10 @ 50-60% was always designed to be a hypertrophy and volume based assistance rather than PL speciality so you're right to question it for what you want.

For your weaknesses, bench - paused board and pin presses from the sticking point (and/or just below). Squats, yes, lots of paused work. Deadlift - deficits and speed work (assuming "initial lift off the ground" isn't just too heavy in general). OHP generally responds well to lots of OHP volume (5-8 reps in a separate session after heavier work) and heavy tricep work (assuming you're pressing with a fairly close grip and elbows slightly in front, as you probably should be - CG board press etc). It depends how advanced you are and how much you're lifting though - you may well need to target specific weaknesses, or at this stage you may just need more time under the bar with core lifts. You can waste time "fixing" supposed weaknesses too early on.

IMO, for pure powerlifting, you may wish to consider more of an Eastern Bloc approach. The US formats (including 5/3/1), generally (not always... generally!) have a fairly low volume of the PL lifts and make up the volume with tons of bodybuilding style assistance work. Look at Eastern Bloc... Sheiko (alright lots of assistance but a s**t ton of core lift volume), Russian Squat Routine, Smolov (for a specialisation phase), etc. You may end up responding well to them, or you may not. But any PLer should at least consider them, even if you reject them after *trying*. They are tried and tested. I would advise on working up to the volume of these though. Going from 3 lifts in the 70-85% range to literally dozens in the week with multiple sessions isn't best done overnight 

Just IMO.


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## Bataz (Jan 21, 2014)

big said:


> 5x10 @ 50-60% was always designed to be a hypertrophy and volume based assistance rather than PL speciality so you're right to question it for what you want.
> 
> For your weaknesses, bench - paused board and pin presses from the sticking point (and/or just below). Squats, yes, lots of paused work. Deadlift - deficits and speed work (assuming "initial lift off the ground" isn't just too heavy in general). OHP generally responds well to lots of OHP volume (5-8 reps in a separate session after heavier work) and heavy tricep work (assuming you're pressing with a fairly close grip and elbows slightly in front, as you probably should be - CG board press etc). It depends how advanced you are and how much you're lifting though - you may well need to target specific weaknesses, or at this stage you may just need more time under the bar with core lifts. You can waste time "fixing" supposed weaknesses too early on.
> 
> ...


Sound advice. I will also add that I've stopped using % systems and work up to 5,3, or 2 rep maxes. I find % don't work for me personally, too restrictive.


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## swole troll (Apr 15, 2015)

good advice there ^^^

assistance work is too personal for anyone to give advice on without seeing you performing the squat, bench and dead

as big suggested youd be better off looking into eastern euro programs

programs like 531 are essentially a bro split or an upper lower if you swap the assistance around

should consider running some sort of DUP or maybe Bulgarian light

jason blaha actually wrote a fairly decent undulating periodization routine lately, it'll kick your ass if you dont eat enough but overall a decent program with room for bringing up specific weak points of the individual

Bulgarian manual - http://www.strengtheory.com/the-bulgarian-method/

Off season linear periodization intermediate strength program - https://www.muscleandstrength.com/workouts/jason-blaha-intermediate-strength-program

could also consider looking into madcow or the texas method depending on your level of development both of these can yield significant increase to your big 3 lifts


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## rsd147 (Nov 14, 2012)

big said:


> 5x10 @ 50-60% was always designed to be a hypertrophy and volume based assistance rather than PL speciality so you're right to question it for what you want.
> 
> For your weaknesses, bench - paused board and pin presses from the sticking point (and/or just below). Squats, yes, lots of paused work. Deadlift - deficits and speed work (assuming "initial lift off the ground" isn't just too heavy in general). OHP generally responds well to lots of OHP volume (5-8 reps in a separate session after heavier work) and heavy tricep work (assuming you're pressing with a fairly close grip and elbows slightly in front, as you probably should be - CG board press etc). It depends how advanced you are and how much you're lifting though - you may well need to target specific weaknesses, or at this stage you may just need more time under the bar with core lifts. You can waste time "fixing" supposed weaknesses too early on.
> 
> ...


Thanks for this. So much information.

I'm not wanting to compete as such in powerlifting (may do once I am stronger) and also my gym does not have the facilities to be doing board presses etc but my main focus is strength and a bit of size. I enjoy the powerlifting aspect of training rather than bodybuilding so would you still recommend Eastern Bloc approach?

I have been training for quite a few years but concentrated on strength the last 6months-1 year. My lifts are:

150kg Squat

190kg Deadlift

105kg Bench

What would you recommend I do based on my numbers and goals?

Thanks



swole troll said:


> good advice there ^^^
> 
> assistance work is too personal for anyone to give advice on without seeing you performing the squat, bench and dead
> 
> ...


Please see my post above ^^^

Thanks


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## Bataz (Jan 21, 2014)

What's your bodyweight?


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## swole troll (Apr 15, 2015)

rsd147 said:


> Thanks for this. So much information.
> 
> I'm not wanting to compete as such in powerlifting (may do once I am stronger) and also my gym does not have the facilities to be doing board presses etc but my main focus is strength and a bit of size. I enjoy the powerlifting aspect of training rather than bodybuilding so would you still recommend Eastern Bloc approach?
> 
> ...


madcows or texas method for sure (id opt for madcows personally)

if you ever plan on becoming enhanced then revert back to a faster progression based program

if your natural then all the more reason to pursue strength over size as it will offer far more long term reward than chasing size exclusively

i was unsure as to whether or not id compete in powerlifting but as my numbers started going up the idea seemed more appealing and besides its not like a physique environment with people picking you apart like over on the misc, generally people will encourage you at a meet no matter what your numbers


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## rsd147 (Nov 14, 2012)

Bataz said:


> What's your bodyweight?


90kg


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## rsd147 (Nov 14, 2012)

swole troll said:


> madcows or texas method for sure (id opt for madcows personally)
> if you ever plan on becoming enhanced then revert back to a faster progression based program
> 
> if your natural then all the more reason to pursue strength over size as it will offer far more long term reward than chasing size exclusively
> ...


tbh I can see this happening also. I know a few places and see how people motivate others.


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## Bataz (Jan 21, 2014)

rsd147 said:


> 90kg


ok so you've got decent strength for your bw then so that's a good start. As we've all said above there's many, many programmes out there nowadays to pick from. Personally I've tried a lot of them but not stuck with them and only because settled into a plan when I kinda created my own by taking parts of different plans and adapting them together to suit me.

As I've said above I don't follow %'s as I find them too restrictive and don't allow me to listen toy body while training. However if you are to follow a % programme then go with something Russian/Bulgarian/German as said by others. If you google Joe Skopec that website has templates and calculators for most eastern bloc routines.

At the moment I'm not training for a comp as the rugby season is about to start, however when I next have a comp coming up, probably Xmas, I will train in the following way for the main lifts:

WEEK 1-4, 5RM

WEEK 5-8, 3RM

WEEK 8-12 2RM

Just to be clear every session I will write down what my RM was and then try to beat it next time I perform that lift by 2.5kg.


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## swole troll (Apr 15, 2015)

rsd147 said:


> tbh I can see this happening also. I know a few places and see how people motivate others.


texas method is good but it has a boring day in the middle of the week for recovery and it kind of feels like your wasting your time up the gym and only really getting two solid sessions in

that said the progression is good and will bring your numbers up for sure as an intermediate

i prefer madcow because each day of the week you set a PR in either reps or weight

i dont know your bodyweight but i stopped running daily linear progression programs (beginner routines) when my squat was around 140kg for 3x5 as i no matter how much i deloaded i couldnt go beyond that with daily progression but then im 6'3 with quite a naturally big frame

if your sure you cant milk anything more from stronglifts or ICF (more demanding than stronglifts really for absolute beginners) then id say make the switch

madcows took my squat from about 160kg for 5 to 170kg for 5 as a top set so plenty of volume done before hand and im still progressing

blahas periodization program is good but its more days in the gym and im not joking when i say it will KILL you if you dont eat enough and even then it will wipe you out when your on the 5x10 squats followed by 5x10 deadlifts


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## swole troll (Apr 15, 2015)

Madcow's - http://www.powerliftingtowin.com/madcows-5x5/ <<<<---------*my recommendation*

http://stronglifts.com/madcow-5x5-training-programs/

The Texas Method - http://www.powerliftingtowin.com/texas-method/

(do Pendlay rows in place of cleans if oly lifts are an issue)

Blaha's intermediate off season periodization program ive linked above somewhere

One last thing:

"Don't f**k with this. Every bodybuilder seems to have Attention Deficit Disorder and an overwhelming desire to customize everything. The bottom line is that these are all the most effective exercises and just about anything one does will result in less gains. As a rule those people who want to change it don't know enough to make proper alterations - those who do know enough, don't have much to change. The guy who is responsible for this program is of the best on the planet at bulking lifters and making people stronger."


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## Bataz (Jan 21, 2014)

What I forgot to add was when I'm training specifically for a meet I do the following:

MONDAY:

Squat and Bench

WEDNESDAY:

Dead Lift

FRIDAY:

Squat and Bench

All three days will also include assistance of some kind.


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## swole troll (Apr 15, 2015)

Bataz said:


> What I forgot to add was when I'm training specifically for a meet I do the following:
> 
> MONDAY:
> 
> ...


im giving this a blast in a local meet im attending soon






not tried to peak specifically for a meet before so looking forward to see what numbers i can put up


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## Info Junkie (Nov 22, 2013)

I just follow what dan green recommended ( of course this doesn't mean it will lift like him ) but his layout and approach is far better and simpler imo


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## swole troll (Apr 15, 2015)

Info Junkie said:


> I just follow what dan green recommended ( of course this doesn't mean it will lift like him ) but his layout and approach is far better and simpler imo


link?


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## Info Junkie (Nov 22, 2013)

swole troll said:


> link?


firstly my mate went to a seminar he had in Belfast so have no link to that

secondly If you join the animalpakforum he has a questions and answer section and he lays it out how he does linear periodisation etc (over a few pages)


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## rsd147 (Nov 14, 2012)

So should I stop doing Wendlers or carry until I stall?


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## swole troll (Apr 15, 2015)

rsd147 said:


> So should I stop doing Wendlers or carry until I stall?


drop 5/3/1

progression is so slow that you're leaving gains on the table for the level you are at


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## rsd147 (Nov 14, 2012)

swole troll said:


> drop 5/3/1
> progression is so slow that you're leaving gains on the table for the level you are at


Would you swap Incline for Military Press?


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## swole troll (Apr 15, 2015)

rsd147 said:


> Would you swap Incline for Military Press?


yes that is the only thing id change with madcows as military press will help balance the shoulders out

the program was originally written for college level american football players so the incline had far more specificity to their sport

for strength training purposes and overall shoulder health definitely switch out incline for military


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## Bataz (Jan 21, 2014)

swole troll said:


> yes that is the only thing id change with madcows as military press will help balance the shoulders out
> the program was originally written for college level american football players so the incline had far more specificity to their sport
> 
> for strength training purposes and overall shoulder health definitely switch out incline for military


I've never quite grasped or been sold on the benefit of incline barbell press, any thoughts?


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## swole troll (Apr 15, 2015)

Bataz said:


> I've never quite grasped or been sold on the benefit of incline barbell press, any thoughts?


it was implemented in Bill Starr's program for american football athletes

they are generally pushing at an incline angle and never really pushing directly overhead so therefore the bench press and incline covers all angles at which they need to develop upper body pushing strength

even as a powerlifter i dont see great benefit to incline press as when you bench in competition you should be arching and driving your traps into the bench which creates more of a decline press as this is the most powerful position to press from

as an aesthetic stand point inclines have their place but generally i think military press is sufficient and as rip says the military press is essential for shoulder balance when doing a lot of benching

of course plenty of pulling and upper back work should also be performed to allow for healthy, strong shoulders


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## Bataz (Jan 21, 2014)

Hmmmm was just wondering at present with me prodominantly training for rugby at the moment if I should include it then. Due to a recent change in shifts at work and home circumstances my current training looks like this:

Monday: Gym

Tuesday: Rugby Training

Wednesday: Gym

Thursday: Gym (Cardio)

Friday: Rest

Saturday: Rugby Match

Sunday: Rest.

Im looking at Monday and Wednesday as my weight training days and Thursday as an extra cardio day as I can't make rugby training that night due to finishing work late. All I'm going to do on weight training days is 3 compounds per day, 1 lower body, 1 press and 1 pull.


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## swole troll (Apr 15, 2015)

Probably advisable mate

think how much youd use an incline type push during a game and how much youd use an overhead press

maybe throw in some incline dumbbell press after your main lifts

you're more or less the exact kind of person Bill Starr had in mind when he put the incline press in his program

given rugby isnt american football but in terms of strength you want it in all the same places in both sports


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## Bataz (Jan 21, 2014)

Yeah very valid points there mate.


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## rsd147 (Nov 14, 2012)

Will I still gain size doing Madcows?


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## swole troll (Apr 15, 2015)

rsd147 said:


> Will I still gain size doing Madcows?


provided you are eating in a surplus yes you will gain size and more


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## swole troll (Apr 15, 2015)




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## Bataz (Jan 21, 2014)

Any of you guys have a template or calculator in KG for madcow?


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## swole troll (Apr 15, 2015)

Bataz said:


> Any of you guys have a template or calculator in KG for madcow?


there is an app for android - https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.ionicframework.madcow920502&hl=en_GB

its in lbs so youll have to do the conversion at the start of the week and write it all down, bit of a ball ache but thats what i personally used

stronglifts website madcows 5x5 spread sheet - http://stronglifts.com/madcow-5x5-training-programs/

its about half way down the page (assuming the download link still works)


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## rsd147 (Nov 14, 2012)

Bataz said:


> Any of you guys have a template or calculator in KG for madcow?


This should work by entering your kg 1rm

http://www.diystrengthtraining.com/workout-spreadsheets-links/5x5-workout-routine-madcow-5x5-spreadsheet-intermediate/


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## Bataz (Jan 21, 2014)

Cheers. Not dissimilar from what I'm doing to tie in with rugby so I'll continue as planned.


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