# Overtraining On Steroids...?



## Ant Marks (Mar 10, 2010)

Hi all,

Touching on a much discussed subject...yet i still find it being in such a grey area.

CAN you overtrain on Steroids!? or do you take advantage and train every murscle group twice per week?

There's guys in the gym that beleive overtraining is a myth, Who have no rest days, and yet are HUGE without showing anysigns of overtraining.... whats the truth?


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## Dantreadz85 (Jun 4, 2009)

im not on gear so cant talk from that point , but overtraining in my opinion exists , but revolves around life too , i was working a hektic job training 5 days a week plus a couple of them sessions had cardio . plus attempting boxing . an within a two weeks of this i was extremely fatigued , was sleeping like 14 hours a night am couldnt kick myself into gear an started suffering anxiety (sp) an stress. this lasted a good week an was eventually 3 weeks before i was training and eating again properly , now this was not obviusly all down to training but i feel it played a big part.


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## zelobinksy (Oct 15, 2008)

Depends on lifestyle, diet and training.

Gear helps you train long by increasing testosterone generally so you repair much faster.

The people who are huge at my gym and seem to have no rest, work a few nights a week at night clubs and dont work during the day, so i'd imagine they have plenty of time to sleep and train.

also depends on body type and training performance, personally i find if i do strength/hypertrophy training i could do it again within 3 days rest of that group. If i do endurance or definition with lots of fatigue training i can't do it again in a few days lol


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## Kezz (Sep 3, 2007)

yes you can overtrain on gear, muscles will repair quicker but everything else wont recover as fast.. ie nervous system


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## Dantreadz85 (Jun 4, 2009)

how much rest does the nervous system require kezz ? always been in a grey area about this?


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

in my opinion you cannot overtrain just undereat.....


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## Guest (Mar 23, 2010)

Pscarb said:


> in my opinion you cannot overtrain just undereat.....


ah thank you, some sense

you would be suprised how the body can addapt to whjatever you throw at it!!


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## Dantreadz85 (Jun 4, 2009)

Pscarb said:


> in my opinion you cannot overtrain just undereat.....


so what your saying is aslong as you eat enough calories to what you expend you cant overtrain?

without trying to sound like a smartass ( trust me im not im well aware your a lot more knowledgable in this area than me)

are you saying you could then train chest everyday an aslong as eat enough it wont overtrain??


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## cheef (Dec 1, 2009)

of course you can overtrain i have on cycle

if you were doing 8hours of weights a days you wouldnt grow or recover youd defo burn out

its easier to undereat tho


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

LOL yes but you would not train for 8hrs a day nor would you train chest every day.....overtraining is about recovery and diet is one of the main factors to this........

so for you and the others that say "what if you never sleep or train all day and all night" if you follow a normal training method ie once a day training rotating bodyparts in my opinion under eating is the main problem ie you don't over train your under eat


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## sizar (Nov 13, 2008)

on gear muscle will recover and grow at fast rate as long as you provide the body with required nutrition to do so. and this could lead people to over train because of quick recovery. just have to remember that tendons and joints connective tissues get under pressure because they don't grow as fast as muscle tissue.


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## cheef (Dec 1, 2009)

ok but maybe your llifting/grafting heavy stuff for work not doing 10000sets of bench lol too much stress on the body you wont beable to eat enough food to compensate


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

why not? that is a pretty big statement tell me why you would not be able to eat enough and what is enough??


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## steeley (Sep 29, 2009)

Pscarb said:


> LOL yes but you would not train for 8hrs a day nor would you train chest every day.....overtraining is about recovery and diet is one of the main factors to this........
> 
> so for you and the others that say "what if you never sleep or train all day and all night" if you follow a normal training method ie once a day training rotating bodyparts in my opinion under eating is the main problem ie you don't over train your under eat


Of course if you follow a 'normal' training method ie once a day training rotating bodyparts, you are not overtraining and it is therefore not what the initial question is asking.

I think what needs to be determined is exactly what constitutes 'overtraining'.

Yes its completely unrealistic for anyone to train 8 hours per day etc etc but its quite possible to train at high intensity 2 hours per day, 7 days per week, no matter what your work schedule is. I do believe that no matter how much gear you take and how much food you consume that you will be severely overtrained. The CNS alone just could not cope.

On that basis i do not believe the statement ' there is no such thing as overtraining, just undereating' holds up and yes you can indeed overtrain when using AAS.


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## Dantreadz85 (Jun 4, 2009)

Pscarb said:


> LOL yes but you would not train for 8hrs a day nor would you train chest every day.....overtraining is about recovery and diet is one of the main factors to this........
> 
> so for you and the others that say "what if you never sleep or train all day and all night" if you follow a normal training method ie once a day training rotating bodyparts in my opinion under eating is the main problem ie you don't over train your under eat


lol interesting first time ive herd this , how about for a natty tho would you say the same principles apply ?


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

yes mate over training is overtraining natural or not you are still not eating enough.....


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## fishy007 (Dec 27, 2009)

ok for me overtraing is absolute rubbish unless your doing same body part everyday like stated earlier... i have proof in a sense

my bro works 6 days a week nightshift finish at 8 in the morning goes to gut breakie until 9 then trains until 11.30am gets the bus home then gets 2 hrs sleep max before he has to pick the kids up from school then hiss lass gets in from work at 8pm and drops him off at work again he does this 5-6 days a week... the amount of food he consumes is scary this is why i think what ps carb says about food is correct...

the size he has put on in last 6 months since we both got back in to the gym is amazing progress arms up 2 1/2" chest 4" almost and he has actually dropped bodyfat..

overtraining is an excuse for people with little motivation or incorrect diet in my opinion


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## Guest (Mar 23, 2010)

fishy007 said:


> ok for me overtraing is absolute rubbish unless your doing same body part everyday like stated earlier... i have proof in a sense
> 
> my bro works 6 days a week nightshift finish at 8 in the morning goes to gut breakie until 9 then trains until 11.30am gets the bus home then gets 2 hrs sleep max before he has to pick the kids up from school then hiss lass gets in from work at 8pm and drops him off at work again he does this 5-6 days a week... the amount of food he consumes is scary this is why i think what ps carb says about food is correct...
> 
> ...


i agree with this aswell. most people her will post workout and will say nothings happening and overtraining will be given as the excuse by most. the harsh reality is most DONT DO ENOUGH, thats why nothings happening!


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## steeley (Sep 29, 2009)

It seems like the point is being entirely missed by several people here.

I completely agree that the reason why the majority of people who do not progress with building size is due to a poor diet ie not consuming enough calories but that is not what the original post is asking.

Knowing the training style of Fishy's brother is absolutely essential before we can even begin to consider what it prooves but what seems clear is that his training protocol is suitable for his lifestyle and his diet, but what if he were to double or triple his training intensity or volume? The post is asking if the use of AAS would prevent him from overtraining and its my opinion is that they wouldnt and he would be overtrained.

What denotes overtraining? Is it simply that your calorific intake does not support your training protocol? I dont think so. There comes a point when no matter how much food you consume, certain training protocols will be rendered useless.

Russ, imagine if you introduced squats and deadlifts to your training regime. Try training six days per week of high intensity volume training with each workout lasting 2 hours. Eat 8 meals a day with around 500g of protein and 500g of carbs total per day. No matter how much gear you bang in i guarantee you will reach the point of being overtrained.


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## Guest (Mar 23, 2010)

in all fairness yes your right, untill we know what he does then i suppose we cant say but as a rule these threads turn up twice a week and the majority of what people post isnt enough to stimulate growth let alone overtrain!


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## micreed (Sep 9, 2008)

you cannot overtrain just undereat

tryin to think of the guy who 1st said this..cant and its makin my head hurt...lol

so many variables in this ..to sum up recon muscle wise easy to recover ...however cns diff matter as takes longer than muscle recovery ...that said it takes a lot to run cns down so unless you hit training 7 days week you should be fine with loads good grub and couple rest days a week


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## steeley (Sep 29, 2009)

We all know that without a spot-on diet AND training regime that bodybuilding success will not happen and youre also right in saying that the majority of people who post here have at least one of these two facets amiss.

If it were as simple as 'eat as much as you can and you wont overtrain' the whole training philosophies of Mentzer, Yates et al are rendered useless.

By the way, was that picture of you taken at G.A.Y at the weekend? I was the midget dancing on stage with nothing on but a cowboy hat.


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## micreed (Sep 9, 2008)

ps to ans the q yes you can overtrain on gear...more of cns thing than any thing else and no amount of grub will help if you run down your cns system


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## steeley (Sep 29, 2009)

Totally agree. I think its relatively difficult to overtrain a specific muscle but the CNS is a different story, which again backs my opinion that you can indeed overtrain on AAS.

I first remember Greg Valentino many years ago saying that 'theres no such thing as overtraining, just undereating'. The statement therefore held no credibility from the moment i read it.


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## willsey4 (Apr 21, 2008)

Pscarb said:


> in my opinion you cannot overtrain just undereat.....


Was just about to write this but you beat me to it.

Perfectly put.

I've upped the volume in my training lately to what most would consider over training but find it to be working very well.

All down to the diet!


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## steeley (Sep 29, 2009)

willsey4 said:


> Was just about to write this but you beat me to it.
> 
> Perfectly put.
> 
> ...


Mate, so how does that prove that you cant overtrain on AAS?


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## willsey4 (Apr 21, 2008)

steeley said:


> Mate, so how does that prove that you cant overtrain on AAS?


If you read again I am saying that your diet plays a big part in everything including overtraining. For example, on a crap diet your limit may be 12 odd sets where as with a good diet which I am on at present you can train mire and harder.

I have not tried to prove you can not overtrain on AAS.


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## Lois_Lane (Jul 21, 2009)

Depends on the person and how you train i suppose.

I certainly can very easily over train and progress will halt.


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## sizar (Nov 13, 2008)

when i hit legs on Monday night it will start hurting from Tuesday night or Wednesday morning right up to Saturday surely if i train lets say on Friday thats not going to be a good idea. plus I'm on cycle as well but recovery seems to take ages.


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## BigDom86 (Jul 27, 2008)

i used to not believe in overtraining. but i do now. since ive cut back my volume im starting to see improvements in size and strength again.


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## willsey4 (Apr 21, 2008)

BigDom86 said:


> i used to not believe in overtraining. but i do now. since ive cut back my volume im starting to see improvements in size and strength again.


It's weird as it was the opposite for me! When training short intense workouts I wasn't getting pains in my muscles a few days after. Now I've upped the volume to for example 16 plus sets fir a back or chest workout and the doms I get are brilliant

each to their own etc


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## BigDom86 (Jul 27, 2008)

haha wilsey mate ill still do a good 14-16 sets for legs, chest and back. i used to do more than this! i guess i still do high volume, but not superhigh volume. also for the last 2 weeks ive been training one day off one day on, so 3 times a week, instead of the usual 4-5.


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## Lois_Lane (Jul 21, 2009)

willsey4 said:


> It's weird as it was the opposite for me! When training short intense workouts I wasn't getting pains in my muscles a few days after. Now I've upped the volume to for example 16 plus sets fir a back or chest workout and the doms I get are brilliant
> 
> each to their own etc


Why would you want pains in your muscles?

Muscle soreness has nothing to do with muscle growth.


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## hilly (Jan 19, 2008)

Overtraining is possible if your body doesnt adapt/you dont adapt it to the stress it is being put under. wether this be sufficient rest/calories etc etc.

gear is irrelevant to this IMO.


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## fishy007 (Dec 27, 2009)

il post up me and my bros chest routine that we do on a sunday i did this months ago and lads said it was way to much but it works for us ive only been training 6 months never done weights before sept

dumbell chest press flat bench

20kg x 8 x 1

30kg x 8 x 1

45kg x failure x 3

dumbell chest press incline bench

20kg x 8 x 1

30kg x 8 x 1

40kg x failure x 3

dumbell flat bench flyes

25kg failure x 3

cable incline flyes

not sure of weight failure x 3

chest expansions flat bench with dumbell

40kg x failure x 3

chest press machine

not sure of weight again failure x 3

then sometimes we are pretty done in but if still got energy we will do pec deck 3 sets on whole stack

every 6 weeks we alternate between barbell bench pressing and dumbells when using barbells we do same routine with decline bench added


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## Lois_Lane (Jul 21, 2009)

fishy007 said:


> il post up me and my bros chest routine that we do on a sunday i did this months ago and lads said it was way to much but it works for us ive only been training 6 months never done weights before sept
> 
> dumbell chest press flat bench
> 
> ...


That doesn't look that much to me TBH any way considering the weights being lifted.

Things change once you start doing your sets with 70kg dumb bells and the like, good luck having the energy to kick those up for sets over and over....


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## hilly (Jan 19, 2008)

fishy007 said:


> il post up me and my bros chest routine that we do on a sunday i did this months ago and lads said it was way to much but it works for us ive only been training 6 months never done weights before sept
> 
> dumbell chest press flat bench
> 
> ...


you may not over train but i would say you are wasting time/calories in the gym that could be used for growing unless u are trying to burn cals this way instead of cardio i suppose.


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## willsey4 (Apr 21, 2008)

Lois_Lane said:


> Why would you want pains in your muscles?
> 
> Muscle soreness has nothing to do with muscle growth.


Maybe not but for me it's a good indicator that I have worked hard. I can't imagine doing a leg workout and feeling 100% fine after it!


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## fishy007 (Dec 27, 2009)

Lois_Lane said:


> That doesn't look that much to me TBH any way considering the weights being lifted.
> 
> Things change once you start doing your sets with 70kg dumb bells and the like, good luck having the energy to kick those up for sets over and over....


i understand what your saying when we can lift more, but the 45kg dumbells are the heaviest we can get up so we are lifting are maximum so regardless if our maximum is 45kg or 70kg its our limit i understand you will use more energy pushing heaveir weights so have to agree with ya we wont be able to do thos qty of sets if we get to thos weights my max was 25kg 4 months ago all i was saying was my routine is obviosly working well for us


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## BigDom86 (Jul 27, 2008)

i think the further you progress in your training, steroids or not. the weight is going to get heavier and your going to have to reduce volume to compensate for this.


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## fishy007 (Dec 27, 2009)

hilly said:


> you may not over train but i would say you are wasting time/calories in the gym that could be used for growing unless u are trying to burn cals this way instead of cardio i suppose.


what would you change hilly?? im always wanting to improve training any advice would be great


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## BigDom86 (Jul 27, 2008)

fishy if i was you id start closer to your maximum weight. if your pressing the 45s, theres no point starting on the 20s imo. start on the 30s or 35s


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## hilly (Jan 19, 2008)

if i was sticking to that volume i would ditch one of the type of flies and get rid of the chest press at the end and add in 3 sets of dips.

if u have energy left at the end to do a couple of sets of pec dec i would think i hadnt tried hard enough during the workout but thats just me


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## steeley (Sep 29, 2009)

willsey4 said:


> If you read again I am saying that your diet plays a big part in everything including overtraining. For example, on a crap diet your limit may be 12 odd sets where as with a good diet which I am on at present you can train mire and harder.
> 
> I have not tried to prove you can not overtrain on AAS.


I just read your post again and you clearly stated that 'diet is everything'.

Its not everything, diet AND training is everything. ie not overtraining.


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## willsey4 (Apr 21, 2008)

steeley said:


> I just read your post again and you clearly stated that 'diet is everything'.
> 
> Its not everything, diet AND training is everything. ie not overtraining.


Ok then, I will re phrase this just for you!

Diet is not 100% everything. It is a generic phrase associated with bodybuilding implying that diet is one of the key factors of bodybuilding that people overlook.

Are you happy now or is there anything else I need to correct for you dear sir!

If your going to pick up on every post that everyone leaves then your going to waste a hell of a lot of time!


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## fishy007 (Dec 27, 2009)

willsey4 said:


> Ok then, I will re phrase this just for you!
> 
> Diet is not 100% everything.
> 
> ...


it has been proved you can make muscle on a nil diet, you cant build muscle of just eating so i think training is more important but agree they both have to be bang on for optimum growth


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## steeley (Sep 29, 2009)

willsey4 said:


> Ok then, I will re phrase this just for you!
> 
> Diet is not 100% everything. It is a generic phrase associated with bodybuilding implying that diet is one of the key factors of bodybuilding that people overlook.
> 
> ...


Sorry, i thought there was a relatively decent discussion going on here.

Surely the idea of a forum is so that differing opiions can be discussed?


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## willsey4 (Apr 21, 2008)

fishy007 said:


> it has been proved you can make muscle on a nil diet, you cant build muscle of just eating so i think training is more important but agree they both have to be bang on for optimum growth


I know you can build muscle on a crap diet but unless your genetically blessed or something else this can't last forever.

In my last post i am just trying to stress how important diet is with bodybuilding. I know how important training is and I would guess that the majority on thus forum will to. However I don't believe the majority on this forum realises how important the diet side of things are


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## willsey4 (Apr 21, 2008)

steeley said:


> Sorry, i thought there was a relatively decent discussion going on here.
> 
> Surely the idea of a forum is so that differing opiions can be discussed?


Yes of course it is, this forum is all about opinions.

However I'm sure you understood the messege I was trying to portray as I've explained it a few times now regarding a diet.


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## sizar (Nov 13, 2008)

training will make you bigger but if you eat sh!T you will look like SH!T


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## steeley (Sep 29, 2009)

willsey4 said:


> Yes of course it is, this forum is all about opinions.
> 
> However I'm sure you understood the messege I was trying to portray as I've explained it a few times now regarding a diet.


Well no, i didnt understand it like that at all since the topic of conversation is about the direct relationship between diet, AAS and training.

In this context to say 'diet is everything' i think its quite reasonable to take it that you mean 'diet is everything'.


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## willsey4 (Apr 21, 2008)

sizar said:


> training will make you bigger but if you eat sh!T you will look like SH!T


I wish I knew as much about diet now when I started out training. I reckon I could of got to a good standard by now! Lol


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## dixie normus (May 11, 2008)

Pscarb said:


> in my opinion you cannot overtrain just undereat.....


I agree. Genuine over training is hard to achieve.

Below that you have under recovery which is the same as undereat.


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## Slindog (Oct 6, 2009)

if you are at the gym from 8 hours a day.. yes, its over training. It's no big deal if you dont get injured. But you eventually will, and you won't see great results.

You need time to cosume calories, time to sleep and time to restore depleted storage on various nutrients. even on AAS. It just restores quicker on AAS, so yes you need to rest.

its all about finding the balance for optimal results.

The only reason a person would overtrain is if they were a professional athelete. The motivation to beat the competion and being the best is what pays and gives you recognition.

Thus many apiring pros over reach to get there.


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## Lois_Lane (Jul 21, 2009)

fishy007 said:


> it has been proved you can make muscle on a nil diet, you cant build muscle of just eating so i think training is more important but agree they both have to be bang on for optimum growth


Of course you can it has been proven many times.


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## micreed (Sep 9, 2008)

"The only reason a person would overtrain is if they were a professional athelete"

ive found all the pro athletes i know never overtrain...they know what they need to do to optimize every thing they do...now beginners totaly diff thing..ie most always overtrain

see them all the time every routinre going for hrs on end...pros no what they are doing...

and im talking not just bodybuilders...ovetraining is all to do with rest and how intense you train ..ie look arnolds era they could spend hrs ..7 days week and not overtrain simply because they did not tax their cns with the type of training they did..prob only worked 80 to 90 % of their capacity most time..where as yates type thing he didnt really start his set till he reached that point then he would push beyound it...that is when you will hit your cns system do that type trainiing for several days without a break and you will feel like you been hit by bus your cns will not recover no matter how well you eat..you will be overtrained and only thing that will help is time off


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## Huntingground (Jan 10, 2010)

micreed said:


> "The only reason a person would overtrain is if they were a professional athelete"
> 
> ive found all the pro athletes i know never overtrain...they know what they need to do to optimize every thing they do...now beginners totaly diff thing..ie most always overtrain
> 
> ...


Good post. I agree with this.


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## Dantreadz85 (Jun 4, 2009)

i agree with not overtraining on a physical level , altho as i stated im not clued on cns recovery ect . but on a mental and emotional level overtraining is very possible , or at least can help lead to it in a big way imo .


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## micreed (Sep 9, 2008)

good point dan...mental aspect of overtraining is often over looked


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## Damo j (Mar 26, 2008)

IMO you can over train, muscles and gear and food all well and good. Tendons, well i think they take a little longer to get sorted. So tendon wise you can over train.


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## Slindog (Oct 6, 2009)

I beg to differ. I think more than 50% of the players in the PREM overtrain.

You juust simply cant keep weight and train that much, one would have to go beyond the limits


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## micreed (Sep 9, 2008)

slin what is your definitoin of overtraining...to me its not going beyound the limits ...its not recovering...overtraining affects proformance if you are overtrained you will not proform so well...basicly what your saying with that sweeping statement is 50% of prem players are under preforming because they despite all the top trainers ..diet gurus body conditioners . and the like are overtraining them so they will not recover ..hence will not preform...you should let them no this nuggett of info ...you could make millions...overtraining is not the same as pushing beyound the limits ...its not recovering...


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## steeley (Sep 29, 2009)

Slin- you 'think more than 50% of PREM players are overtrained' ?

On what basis are you making that claim?

We see players week in week out playing 90 intense minutes where their athletic performance is not compromised, so what indicators are you seeing, that their coaches arent, that clearly show them to be overtrained?

As Micreed said, overtraining is not about pushing your body past its limitations. Its about training to the point where the body is unable to recover and therefore compromising performance.


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## Funkyfresh (Oct 8, 2008)

I believe you can certainly over train on steroids. People often say that there is no such thing as over training, only under-eating. This may be true in relation to muscular recovery, but too many people overlook the effect heavy lifting has on the CNS. Over-training occurs mainly as a result of CNS burnout rather than muscular burnout. There is way too much emphasis on muscular recovery that people seem to completely overlook other aspects. Only a couple of people have actually acknowledged this.

The CNS is like your control center. It sends a nerve impulse to your muscles. This impulse tells the muscle to contract. Your ability to generate force depends on the electrical activation sent by the CNS. As fatigue mounts through constant over exertion, your ability to recruit muscular force will decrease and thus your muscles will not be working optimally for the task at hand which will eventually lead to a plateau in your training or even regression.

So although the muscle tissue itself might be perfectly capable and recovered, if the CNS (e.g: your power supply) is over fatigued, it's not going to send those nerve signals optimally to your muscles which means that you're muscle won't be firing properly and you won't be giving your muscles the stimulus it needs to signify the process of hypertrophy.

Another crappy analogy is to think of a light bulb. The light bulb (muscles) may be working fine, but if the power supply or circuit is broken or isn't working optimally (CNS), the light bulb isn't gonna work or is gonna be very dim 

Steroids don't have such a profound effect on the CNS as they do with skeletal muscle. So I do think you can train harder and longer with AAS, but they don't make you invincible like some people seem to think.

Given the right nutrients, muscle recovers relatively quickly, but you also have to take into account other aspects of recovery such as not only the nervous system (which won't simply recover through optimal nutrition alone, you need to rest and re-set the power switch as it were) but also ligaments, tendons...etc. which again do not recover at the same rate as muscle tissue.

So I don't buy into the notion that it comes down to under-eating, although obviously nutrition is critical and if you're not giving your body what it needs, this will put an increasing strain on the muscles as well as the CNS. If the muscles aren't recovered, then basically the opposite can happen - The power supply (CNS) may be working, but you have a problem with the light bulb. :thumb:


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## Pharaoh meathead (Nov 10, 2016)

your muscles will be fine 
but your nerves system and joints need time to recover 
i have a rest day every 10 days ( 2x 5 days split ) 
while on Tren


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## GameofThrones (Feb 4, 2016)

Pharaoh meathead said:


> your muscles will be fine
> but your nerves system and joints need time to recover
> i have a rest day every 10 days ( 2x 5 days split )
> while on Tren


 Wow it took you six years to make an account and comment and thats the best ya could come up with


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## MFM (Jul 25, 2013)

Is 45 minutes to an hour enough for a training session on gear? Some people say if you train with enough intensity, 45mins is enough.


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## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

I do two 90min sessions a day....big sessions. Have always done lots......fvck over training.....Most people under train


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## DLTBB (Jan 26, 2015)

I'm scaling back volume recently as I think it's better for growth.

I would like to try Yates style HIT or Mentzer style heavy duty training but I'm training alone at the moment and would need somebody with me for forced reps/negatives etc.


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## gregstm (Dec 2, 2012)

It happened to me couple times, I used to eat properly, taking lots of gear but I was physically working 7 days a week and training 6 times a week and sometimes after few week it built up to the level I had to do week off


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## MFM (Jul 25, 2013)

FelonE said:


> I do two 90min sessions a day....big sessions. Have always done lots......fvck over training.....Most people under train


 Unless you do bodybuilding for a living, you wouldn't be able to dedicate this much time to training. I have an hour tops every day between commuting and working so I guess I'll just have to make that work.


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## Bish83 (Nov 18, 2009)

BigDom86 said:


> i think the further you progress in your training, steroids or not. the weight is going to get heavier and your going to have to reduce volume to compensate for this.


 you say that but when you hit the high numbers you have to increase volume. The weight increase on the bar takes longer and longer though.

edit: volume increase over a period of weeks not changing from a set of 3-5 to reps of 20-30.


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## BoomTime (Feb 19, 2009)

Pscarb said:


> in my opinion you cannot overtrain just undereat.....


 This, the same opinion of Ronnie Coleman. I have train with hillarious amounts of volume and intensity for weeks at a time and have grown well.

That is not to say that I could of done better with more rest though.

Rest is needed, but over training is over hyped.


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## JuiceyjayV2 (May 31, 2016)

Agree as long as your getting enough calories and sleep then go hard!!!


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## Bensif (Aug 28, 2011)

DLTBB said:


> I'm scaling back volume recently as I think it's better for growth.
> 
> I would like to try Yates style HIT or Mentzer style heavy duty training but I'm training alone at the moment and would need somebody with me for forced reps/negatives etc.


 You don't need a spot mate, I do Upper / Lower and have done PPL (I work with JP) training alone for the last 7 months now. Just choose exercises that allow you to fail safely, e.g. DB press over BB press unless you do the BB in a rack (which I do on occasion).

Instead of forced reps you can do rest pause which I find works really well. If you train with good tempo; 3010 eccentric, bottom, concentric, top then no need for purposeful negatives in the set.

Definitely give it a go though, its working really well for me both in terms of growth and condition.


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## bonacris (May 20, 2015)

DLTBB said:


> I'm scaling back volume recently as I think it's better for growth.
> 
> I would like to try Yates style HIT or Mentzer style heavy duty training but I'm training alone at the moment and would need somebody with me for forced reps/negatives etc.


 I like doggcrapp rest pause. smith machine is great for that. nobody in my gym knows how to spot. hands off the fu**ing bar


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## bonacris (May 20, 2015)

MFM said:


> Is 45 minutes to an hour enough for a training session on gear? Some people say if you train with enough intensity, 45mins is enough.


 Dorian said on London real that he trained for 45mins. stimulate the muscle, get out, rest and grow


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## larus (Sep 23, 2015)

Ant Marks said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Touching on a much discussed subject...yet i still find it being in such a grey area.
> 
> ...


 I haven't read the whole thread so this may already have come up. Im two months in a Test E and Primobolan E cycle and have been training like a mad man and got really very good results training every single day sometimes two sessions (I also have an home gym...so that is a dangerous temptation ..) ....up to a couple of weeks ago. I started to feel like s**t , personal best in terms of lifts were over, getting a few light injuries here and there, feeling lethargic so I decided to get my blood work done.

All values from the blood work were very good but a couple of liver enzyme, CK Creatine Kinase and AST.In particular CK was over 1500!!! (range is 0 to 200). CK is EXCLUSIVELY related to muscle damage/waste... too much waste in my blood from overtraining (or a severe injury including heart, but that is clearly not my case as Im pretty sure I didnt have any stroke lately  ) that the liver cant not clear fast enough. It's an early (very early) indication of rhabdomyolysis which tends to be caused primarily by severe exertion such as marathon running, intense weightlifting or calisthenics. etc etc So yeahh..I think you can overtrain on AAS

I have been training for 24 years since I was a teen, but overtraining is very tricky.....and most of the times is under-rst/lack of proper recovery more than overtraining. In fact in hindsight this started for me right after a 10 days business trip, when I continued to train every day very hard even if I was in 6 meetings a day, lacking proper meals as I was in meetings all day etc etc So clearly lots of variables but answer is that AAs alone wont make you indestructible!


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## Digger78 (Nov 30, 2014)

Pscarb said:


> why not? that is a pretty big statement tell me why you would not be able to eat enough and what is enough??


 I think eating enough good foods Is very very hard.

I was eating clean on 5000 + cals a day and it was murder getting it in on clean foods.

Sure, it's easy if you eat crap fast food etc but doing it clean is hard work force feeding yourself.


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

many in fact most dont need as much as 5000+ calories, when your talking those numbers then you need to be logical about your food choices adding low volume but high calorie dense foods help

for example dont choose basmati rice use jasmine rice which is higher in carbs per 100g

add oils to your meals/shakes

add nut butter to shakes

making your own pizzas will allow you to eat a high calorie meal whilst not eating processed foods (junk food)

i am not saying eating above 5000 calories is easy but it is certainly possible


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## bonacris (May 20, 2015)

Digger78 said:


> I think eating enough good foods Is very very hard.
> 
> I was eating clean on 5000 + cals a day and it was murder getting it in on clean foods.
> 
> Sure, it's easy if you eat crap fast food etc but doing it clean is hard work force feeding yourself.


 150gm oats

70gram whey isolate

100gram frozen berries

30ml extra virgin olive oil

Blend them with ice cold water and neck it

Is over 1000cals on my fitness pal and they are pretty wholesome foods. 2 of those a day and your laughing


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## bonacris (May 20, 2015)

Digger78 said:


> I think eating enough good foods Is very very hard.
> 
> I was eating clean on 5000 + cals a day and it was murder getting it in on clean foods.
> 
> Sure, it's easy if you eat crap fast food etc but doing it clean is hard work force feeding yourself.


 150gm oats

70gram whey isolate

100gram frozen berries

30ml extra virgin olive oil

Is over 1000cals on my fitness pal and they are pretty wholesome foods. 2 of those a day and your laughing


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## Digger78 (Nov 30, 2014)

bonacris said:


> 150gm oats
> 
> 70gram whey isolate
> 
> ...


 I have one pretty similar

150g oats

Tablespoons nut butter

2 scoops my protein whey

1 banana

30ml olive oil


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## stewedw (Jun 15, 2015)

BigDom86 said:


> i used to not believe in overtraining. but i do now. since ive cut back my volume im starting to see improvements in size and strength again.


 I'd say that's cns related. I read years ago that frequency was better than volume. Can't recall the specifics but essentially says that if you train chest and back Monday, you get doms, you've cause "x" amount of damage and started the process of muscle growth. Come Wednesday as you are already primed from the Monday for those parts you hit again, not necessarily same sets reps and excercise. But the stimulating effect of that second workout causes more growth then history hammering the first. I don't know if that makes sense etc, but many athletes train daily, sprinters, strongmen, football players. High volume stuff taxes the cns more than lower volume so perhaps combining the both in the same week on seperate days would be the best bet? @pscarb


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## Slindog (Oct 6, 2009)

by not eating enough,

if you are at surplus when you sleep with macros and calories you are good.

but doesn't mean you'll gain more by training more 

if you are at 500 plus calories a day, there is only so much energy and micro nutrients you have sorted for repair.

train a little more, eat alot more, take less doage of gear for a longer period of time.

WHY? accumalation of much more calories over the course of the cycle. You can only eat so much


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## Quackerz (Dec 19, 2015)

Pscarb said:


> in my opinion you cannot overtrain just undereat.....


 Old post I know but that's only really true when factoring in the recovery of the muscular system, your neuromuscular system is a completely different beast.

Depends what you are training for and how much stress you are actually placing your CNS under.


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## Quackerz (Dec 19, 2015)

MFM said:


> Is 45 minutes to an hour enough for a training session on gear? Some people say if you train with enough intensity, 45mins is enough.


 Perfectly optimal but high volume training can yield just as good results (in terms of size at least), just depends how you prefer to train I guess.


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

Quackerz said:


> Old post I know but that's only really true when factoring in the recovery of the muscular system, your neuromuscular system is a completely different beast.
> 
> Depends what you are training for and how much stress you are actually placing your CNS under.


 agree it is but the recovery of a battered CNS has many more variables than just lowering workout volume, stress from outside influences along with using stimulants play a huge roll but to be fair for this conversation the mention of "Overtraining"i took purely from a muscular point of view.


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