# Kiyoshi Moody, Natural or Not?



## Lockon

Wondering if he's natural or not? BTW he's the Natural Mr.Olympia.

Some Forums say he's on Insulin and HGH. So is he physique unattainable without the use of Insulin and HGH?

































His Stats


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## andymc88

Duno theres a coppa in my gym who looks far from natural but claims it bt the lads who compete say he must be using cos he looks good year round, ripped and at his age would be loosing muscle mass etc


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## phoenixlaw

That is definitely his poo face!


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## Readyandwaiting

It's hard to tell, I would put more money on him being on something illegal within a natural contest than not.

He has too much of that artificial pump going on.


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## infernal0988

If he is natural and thats a big IF well then it is a amazing feat coupled with amazing genetics.


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## greekgod

if u look at his rear lat spread photo uwill see the upper lumbar discs protruding.. common sign of constant HGH ... HEs abt as natural as freddy mecury was straight...good bod tho... good genetics...


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## slunkeh

If you look at the last photo it looks like he has a bit of gyno under his left nipple.....


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## Matt 1

no


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## baggsy1436114680

forearms 12"???? surely thats an error


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## Lockon

Yeah it must be but he uploads his own stats so maybe? But it is quite old


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## baggsy1436114680

guys on here say its hard to gain a physique like zyzz natural lol so to get like him would be impossible on this forum anyway. i personally think if you have been training for constant 15-20 years solid diet etc you can gain an awesome physique naturally most just take the short cut through gear like myself


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## Lockon

I'm going to try an obtain something similar to that Natural and see where I go from there.


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## C.Hill

Obliques look sick in the first picture.

But like fcuk that's all natty training. Can't see how you'd question it tbh.


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## Wevans2303

Not natural in a million years, lmao.

You can even see his gyno in the last posing pic.


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## huge monguss

Might just be good genetics :rolleye:


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## Gym-pig

Could be natural and just down to genetics

Imagine how Heath would look natural - still incredible . The Leverone report shows what a huge part genetics can take !


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## Fatstuff

Not natty lol, just gets round testing with smart and fast acting drug choices imo


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## Lockon

And he's the Natural MR.Olympia and even he's on gear :/ depressing man!


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## madmuscles

On T-nation he's interviewed and this is what he said

"Testosterone Nation: First things first. Are you a pothead, Focker? Wait, I mean, are you a steroid user, Moody?

Kiyoshi Moody: I can honestly answer that question with a "no." Now, if you were to ask me if I will ever use... Well, I can't say yes or no.

We all know you have to use steroids to compete with the elite of the IFBB. You can't be natural and expect to compete at that level. So if I get that pro card one day, then ask me again.

Of course, it'll be a hard decision. A lot of factors must come into play because this sport is about publicity, not trophies. So we'll see. But as for right now I'm 100% natural."

Is this the truth, or could this be a psychological double bluff?


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## Wevans2303

Gym-pig said:


> Could be natural and just down to genetics
> 
> Imagine how Heath would look natural - still incredible . The Leverone report shows what a huge part genetics can take !


What the hell are you on about? Genetics........lmao. No human was meant to look anywhere near this big/lean.

Heath would look like sh!t if he was 100% lifetime natural, just like every other IFBB pro and anyone else for that matter, if your physiques worth bragging about or is questionable natty, it aint natty.

Bodybuilding is full of lyers, scammers and frauds, if I had a great physique and could make a load of money selling BS supplements to some knucklehead I would claim natty all day every day!


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## Readyandwaiting

Wevans2303 said:


> What the hell are you on about? Genetics........lmao. No human was meant to look anywhere near this big/lean.
> 
> Heath would look like sh!t if he was 100% lifetime natural, just like every other IFBB pro and anyone else for that matter, if your physiques worth bragging about or is questionable natty, it aint natty.


I agree to an extent but in all my born days a personal trainer down my gym who doesn't compete anymore was always and has always been natural he runs marathons and 50 milers these days but his legs were mind blowin but his upper body was really ripped but not at all as good as his legs they were amazing


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## Wevans2303

Readyandwaiting said:


> I agree to an extent but in all my born days a personal trainer down my gym who doesn't compete anymore was always and has always been natural he runs marathons and 50 milers these days but his legs were mind blowin but his upper body was really ripped but not at all as good as his legs they were amazing


You don't know for sure if he's natural, you are not him, bb'ers lie through their teeth about natural status and those who juice grossly understate their doses i.e. Lee Priest. Imo if you're a lifter and find something to be astounding, it's done through drugs.

Here is what I mean:










Mr. Levrone, one of the best bb'ers ever and this is what he has to show of himself when he is drug free, hell he's probably on test here, great genetics huh? What a load of baloney.

I have huge respect for guys who take all the risks to be the best and look the best they can be and to compete at the highest possible level, but I HATE people who claim natural status and compete against true naturals when they juice, it's why so many newbies have completely warped expectations on what's achievable, leads them to buy supplements that are supposed to provide these mind blowing muscle gains and when they don't work people either get depressed or get on the juice. Imo it's why so many people are OCD nut cases about bodybuilding and think everything has to be done a certain way or they wont gain anything, it's these frauders who pound this mentality into people so they can make a quick buck off them.


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## Wardy211436114751

I think people underestimate what can be done natty, whether this guy is natty who knows. I know for a fact my dad got up to 100kg natty at 6'2 and leanish. I've only been training 18 months and about 85kg at 5'9 about 15% bf and would like to think I could get to 95kg at 15% bf natty so I guess time will tell.


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## madmuscles

Wevans2303 said:


> You don't know for sure if he's natural, you are not him, bb'ers lie through their teeth about natural status and those who juice grossly understate their doses i.e. Lee Priest. Imo if you're a lifter and find something to be astounding, it's done through drugs.
> 
> Here is what I mean:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mr. Levrone, one of the best bb'ers ever and this is what this ****** has to show for himself when he is drug free, hell he's probably on test here, great genetics huh? What a load of baloney..


When was this image taken and what the hells happened to him and wtf is he doing? Some kind of aerobics pose off? Auditioning for lmfao's "I'm sexy and I know it"?


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## Wevans2303

madmuscles said:


> When was this image taken and what the hells happened to him and wtf is he doing? Some kind of aerobics pose off? Auditioning for lmfao's "I'm sexy and I know it"?


Not sure when exactly, it's between when he stopped pro bb'ing and came back for his comeback series of videos, primarily so he could promote his supplement company. I'm gunna guess at circa 2008



Wardy21 said:


> I think people underestimate what can be done natty, whether this guy is natty who knows. I know for a fact my dad got up to 100kg natty at 6'2 and leanish. I've only been training 18 months and about 85kg at 5'9 about 15% bf and would like to think I could get to 95kg at 15% bf natty so I guess time will tell.


Well I know this guy isn't natural, just look at him, the level of mass, the lack of body fat, he is bald/balding and has gyno, it's obvious. If you think there is any possibility of this guy being drug free you are in need of a serious reality check.


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## Lockon

Side Note: Kevin Lervone Natural. How true? He apparently got drug tested and proved he wasn't on anything


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## Wevans2303

Lockon said:


> Side Note: Kevin Lervone Natural. How true? He apparently got drug tested and proved he wasn't on anything


I feel sorry for you.


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## Lockon

Wevans2303 said:


> I feel sorry for you.


I know he's still on some gear dont worry!


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## Wevans2303

Lockon said:


> I know he's still on some *(alot)* gear dont worry!


Oh, sorry.


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## Little stu

That creative most work a treat for him


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## olliel

phil natural and as mister o took nine years


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## Jaymond0

one of my best mates has muscle mass that of a bodybuilder but does not train whatsoever. he doesn't even know what a carb is let alone knowing the correct way how to curl a dumbbell. If he started lifting, it would be scary what he could achieve naturally. The funny thing is he doesn't even know how buff he actually is. He simply doesn't care.

Prime example of *wasted talent!*


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## baggsy1436114680

olliel said:


> View attachment 81253
> 
> 
> phil natural and as mister o took nine years


weevans will say he was on a ton of gear in that 1st pic lol, you come across as no one can get to a decent size natural, not particularly on about this thread as that guys is huge but other previous threads when guys are not even that big you seem to play the hes on tren etc alot lol without even knowing anything about them


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## Wevans2303

baggsy said:


> weevans will say he was on a ton of gear in that 1st pic lol, you come across as no one can get to a decent size natural, not particularly on about this thread as that guys is huge but other previous threads when guys are not even that big you seem to play the hes on tren etc alot lol without even knowing anything about them


Prob was on gear in first pic, american university level sports, full of people taking drugs to be the best and get noticed.

You know nothing about me, yet judge me, why am I wrong to do the same? The bottom line is more people are on hormones than you would ever imagine.


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## baggsy1436114680

Wevans2303 said:


> Prob was on gear in first pic, university level sports, full of people taking drugs to be the best.
> 
> You know nothing about me, yet judge me, why am I wrong to do the same? The bottom line is more people are on hormones than you would ever imagine.


just saying you come across as its impossible to gain a decent physique natural


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## Wevans2303

baggsy said:


> just saying you come across as its impossible to gain a decent physique natural


Depends what you define as decent. 100% natural 5'10'' 165-170lbs 6-7% that's it, MAYBE 175lb if you have good genetics. You'll look good topless but wouldn't even look like you bodybuild in a t-shirt.










The reality of being natural, ^^^ remember.....one of the best physiques to ever have existed in his prime.


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## Jaymond0

Wevans2303 said:


> Prob was on gear in first pic, american university level sports, full of people taking drugs to be the best and get noticed.
> 
> You know nothing about me, yet judge me, why am I wrong to do the same? The bottom line is more people are on hormones than you would ever imagine.


I agree. I have recently found out that 99.9% of people in my gym are on gear. Over time they have opened up and told me or I have simply worked it out.

It's a dirty little secret..


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## visionp

How can there be a Natural Mr O. All the competitors claim to be drug free as they would mess up their sponsorship and it is Illegal 

C'mon there all on it look at the size of his arms FFS.


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## dtlv

Well the IFBB defintiion of natural in respect of their natty contests only means no PED's in a set period of time, NOT lifetime natural -think it's two years no PED's, might be wrong though.

Kiyoshi has great genetics, and with those excellent genes of his, had he used PED's aggressively he would certainly be a lot bigger, so I don't doubt that anything he does/did/might take is not excessive in use at all.

There are some points to his physique that do possibly suggest use but those are not at all certain giveaways of anything. Impressive physique though whatever the degree of assistance.


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## baggsy1436114680

Wevans2303 said:


> Depends what you define as decent. 100% natural 5'10'' 165-170lbs 6-7% that's it, MAYBE 175lb if you have good genetics. You'll look good topless but *wouldn't even look like you bodybuild in a t-shirt.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The reality of being natural, ^^^ remember.....one of the best physiques to ever have existed in his prime.


At those stats course you will look like you train in a t-shirt, you will have clear separation of chest, delts etc and veins bulging down your arms, my idea of a decent natural would be at 5 10 around 190 - 200lbs with a bodyfat of around 10-12% if your competing dont really see the need to go lower as at 10% you will have a good visible set of abs


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## Wevans2303

Dtlv74 said:


> Well the IFBB defintiion of natural in respect of their natty contests only means no PED's in a set period of time, NOT lifetime natural -think it's two years no PED's, might be wrong though.
> 
> Kiyoshi has great genetics, and with those excellent genes of his, had he used PED's aggressively he would certainly be a lot bigger, so I don't doubt that anything he does/did/might take is not excessive in use at all.
> 
> There are some points to his physique that do possibly suggest use but those are not at all certain giveaways of anything. Impressive physique though whatever the degree of assistance.


November 2006:










July 2007:










8 months apart.....yup, definitely 2 years natural before competing here.....fantastic genetics....rofl.

This guy is a fraud of the highest level and is injecting hormones by the bucketload.


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## Wevans2303

baggsy said:


> At those stats course you will look like you train in a t-shirt, you will have clear separation of chest, delts etc and veins bulging down your arms, my idea of a decent natural would be at 5 10 around 190 - 200lbs with a bodyfat of around 10-12% if your competing dont really see the need to go lower as at 10% you will have a good visible set of abs


Girls will think you workout and you'll get load of pussy, but you wont look like a BODYBUILDER.

Not a natty on this planet 5'10'' 200lbs true 10%. MAYBE 190lb if great genetics, seriously the greatest genetics there is, very few in the entire world, even then I would question/call out for the use of designer steroids and illegal fat burners/stimulants.


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## dtlv

^^ Are those dates really correct? Most guys who are genetically blessed and dosed to the eyeballs couldn't achieve a transformation like that in eight months.


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## Mighty Sparrow

baggsy said:


> forearms 12"???? surely thats an error


They gota be bigger than that surely!!??


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## Wevans2303

Dtlv74 said:


> ^^ Are those dates really correct? Most guys who are genetically blessed and dosed to the eyeballs couldn't achieve a transformation like that in eight months.


Yes they are correct and are verified by Kiyoshi himself, check his bb.com profile, here take a look:

http://bodyspace.bodybuilding.com/thenaturalone/

Testing is completely useless and corrupt, this is proof.

What a joke, a complete insult to all natural body builders who dedicate their lives to achieve their dream physiques the natural way.

Here is another set:

Nov 2006:










Feb 2008 (15 months [!!!] later):










Seriously if you think this guy is natural you need to stop lifting and go and play golf or go horse riding.


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## dtlv

Wevans2303 said:


> Yes they are correct and are verified by Kiyoshi himself, check his bb.com profile, here take a look:
> 
> http://bodyspace.bodybuilding.com/thenaturalone/
> 
> Testing is completely useless and corrupt, this is proof.
> 
> What a joke, a complete insult to all natural body builders who dedicate their lives to achieve their dream physiques the natural way.


Well in twenty years of begin around bb'ing I've known many guys lie about dates on their own pics... doing things like taking pics from three years or so apart and claiming the transformation only happened in six months or so... is a kind of ego trip to try and convince others they are 'better at training/prepping' than the actually are.

Not that I believe he is a natural at all, but I won't believe him on those dates until multiple independent people verify it.

But yes, IFBB natty testing is a joke.... nowhere close to the standards of IAAF testing for example.


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## Wevans2303

Dtlv74 said:


> Well in twenty years of begin around bb'ing I've known many guys lie about dates on their own pics... doing things like taking pics from three years or so apart and claiming the transformation only happened in six months or so... is a kind of ego trip to try and convince others they are 'better at training/prepping' than the actually are.
> 
> Not that I believe he is a natural at all, but I won't believe him on those dates until multiple independent people verify it.
> 
> But yes, IFBB natty testing is a joke.... nowhere close to the standards of IAAF testing for example.


I don't think the dates have been brought forward because it's incredibly obvious that large amounts of drugs would have been used to achieve this transformation given the time frame, I doubt he would fake the start date knowing hundreds of guys like me would call him out. If I were him I would move the date of those first pictures back, to make it appear to be a more realistic transformation provided no steroid use ( :confused1: ).

I just find it sad that this will forever remain mere speculation, there will never be proof. This guy is just like us, average genetics and built a fair amount of muscle using exactly the same cycles as the guys here on UK-M but he obviously realised how much top quality gear you actually need to use to go and compete at the top level 'natty' events lol, grams upon grams, iu's upon iu's, 24/7/365.


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## dtlv

Wevans2303 said:


> I don't think the dates have been brought forward because it's incredibly obvious that large amounts of drugs would have been used to achieve this transformation given the time frame, I doubt he would fake the start date knowing hundreds of guys like me would call him out. If I were him I would move the date of those first pictures back, to make it appear to be a more realistic transformation given no steroid use ( :confused1: ).
> 
> I just find it sad that this will forever remain mere speculation, there will never be proof.


My point with the dates though is I don't think that transformation is possible in that time frame even with PED's, not in eight months.

From the start pic to the end pic he has both added mass and cut bodyfat.

Even with PEDs he must have done at least a 12 week cut for the second pic, so that leaves five months bulk prior to that as a gaining phase... even if he said he did that with a full course of AAS, GH & peptides, slin and DNP etc I'd still be sceptical of it only being in eight months.

Am sure he has used something at soem point, most probably a little gh and slin and a mild anabolic imo.... and while I could be very wrong, to my view the most likely timing between those pics is more like eighteen months-two years whatever he says.


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## Wevans2303

Why does that matter? The fact of the matter is he is saying this is a natural transformation and not an 8 month drug assisted transformation, so surely he would want the date to be as far back as possible to make it look realistic? I can't think that anyone on this planet would think this is natural given a, 18 month time frame let alone an 8 month one.

I appreciate your experience but I think this is a lot more than just 'a little gh and slin and a mild anabolic'.


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## Readyandwaiting

lol i never understood guys who jab gear and compete in natural contests. Isn't it blatant cheating but in a ridiculous manner because in bodybuilding as we all know there are shows specially for drug induced athletes so doesn't this guy think he would do well in the real IFBB if in fact he could gain his pro card


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## Wevans2303

Readyandwaiting said:


> lol i never understood guys who jab gear and compete in natural contests. Isn't it blatant cheating but in a ridiculous manner because in bodybuilding as we all know there are shows specially for drug induced athletes so doesn't this guy think he would do well in the real IFBB if in fact he could gain his pro card


Not everyone wants to be seen by the general public as someone who abuses performance enhancing drugs their entire life just to get a pay cheque. I can see the appeal, if you have no morals and access to the highest quality gear/slin/gh and everything else in a constant supply then go for it, you'll have a roller coaster ride of a life and make a load of money whilst doing it. People are becoming more weary by the day though, it wont last forever.


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## dtlv

Wevans2303 said:


> Why does that matter? The fact of the matter is he is saying this is a natural transformation and not an 8 month drug assisted transformation, so surely he would want the date to be as far back as possible to make it look realistic? I can't think that anyone on this planet would think this is natural given a, 18 month time frame let alone an 8 month one.
> 
> I appreciate your experience but I think this is a lot more than just 'a little gh and slin and a mild anabolic'.


Well if you are trying to make a living as a bodybuilder and sell yourself as a brand/gain sponsors/clients etc then the more spectacular you make your own self transformation appear the more likely you are to attract a following and make money from your career.

Believe me, the kind of blag where people try to make transformations look faster than they actually are is VERY common both in before and after pics designed to sell products, and with bb'ers who are also trainers claiming they achieved such-and-such really quickly themselves or that their clients did due to their expert instruction.

Am not going to name any names but I know one well respected UK bodybuilder who has lies his ass off about how long it took him to build the foundation size of his physique, claiming a time almost a five years less than it actually was, and can think of dozens of people who have made similar claims on a much smaller level.

I'll confess to even doing it myself once years ago - wanted to impress someone so told them the results of two years work were actually achieved in nine months.

Anyway, I do agree with you that there's little chance at all he is a legit natty, but if he were to say he'd achieved that physical change over a few years not months then it's not implausable at all that he did it with only minimal PED use.


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## Wevans2303

Oh I am aware plenty of people BS about how long they've trained for to boost their ego's and step on toes to get ahead, but fair enough, I just cannot see how it's smart to say he did that in 8 months regardless of whether he used drugs or not, I guess most people are too blind to see the truth in a sea of BS.

If I was in his position I would say that took me years of hard work and dedication, I would have thought that would net me much more respect.


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## Lockon

Too many liars in this sport. As it's sooo easy to fool people. If I wasn't a member here and saw these guys it'd give me and probably many others the thought that these bodies can b obtained naturally.

Cheers guys!


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## Wevans2303

Lockon said:


> Too many liars in this sport. As it's sooo easy to fool people. *If I wasn't a member here and saw these guys it'd give me and probably many others the thought that these bodies can b obtained naturally.*
> 
> Cheers guys!


See I simply cannot fathom this, show a regular joe a bodybuilder and they will say steroids all day long, but show them a 'natural' bodybuilder and all of a sudden 'WOW I want to look like him what an inspiration'.


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## dtlv

Wevans2303 said:


> Oh I am aware plenty of people BS about how long they've trained for to boost their ego's and step on toes to get ahead, but fair enough, I just cannot see how it's smart to say he did that in 8 months regardless of whether he used drugs or not, I guess most people are too blind to see the truth in a sea of BS.
> 
> If I was in his position I would say that took me years of hard work and dedication, I would have thought that would net me much more respect.


I totally agree with you buddy... the more I've been involved in physical training the more I've started to feel that what impresses me most is years and years of dedication, consistency and hard work. Much more impressive to me now than what someone can lift or how big their arms are etc.

Just from general observations on life not just bodybuilding, those things are great qualities.

Anyway am not saying that I think Kiyoshi would be smart to lie about time frames, not at all, but that is my instinct based upon my own experience and what little I know about the guy... and you have to admit that if he's going to lie about PEDs (something which if caught out could wreck his career) he'd definitely be prepared to lie about the time frame of his training (something which other than embarrassing wouldn't significantly affect anything).

I could be completely wrong of course and it might well be an eight month cycle that he's lied about and not the time duration of the change, could be both things he's lied about... and I guess possibly he might be telling the truth and a true superfreak of nature!


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## Wevans2303

Dtlv74 said:


> I totally agree with you buddy... the more I've been involved in physical training the more I've started to feel that what impresses me most is years and years of dedication, consistency and hard work. Much more impressive to me now than what someone can lift or how big their arms are etc.
> 
> Just from general observations on life not just bodybuilding, those things are great qualities.
> 
> Anyway am not saying that I think Kiyoshi would be smart to lie about time frames, not at all, but that is my instinct based upon my own experience and what little I know about the guy... *and you have to admit that if he's going to lie about PEDs* (something which if caught out could wreck his career) he'd definitely be prepared to lie about the time frame of his training (something which other than embarrassing wouldn't significantly affect anything).
> 
> I could be completely wrong of course and it might well be an eight month cycle that he's lied about and not the time duration of the change, could be both things he's lied about... *and I guess possibly he might be telling the truth and a true superfreak of nature!*


Agreed.

Perhaps pigs can fly after all hey. 

Thanks for the discussion.


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## kev1

c'mon guys hes juiced to fcuk its obvious, look at his age when he looked average to muscle mass hes got now! ive been training since i was 16 now 28 got a drug free bench world record awesome gentics and i dont look like that!

look at the rules in natural olympia natural for 2 years! joke!!!! more like natural for 6-8 months


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