# NEW section on TRT (HRT)



## ballie

*Would you like a new section for TRT (HRT)*​
YES 6695.65%NO34.35%


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## ballie

Calling all moderators

There seems to be a fair number of guys on here that are on TRT, I have found through my own experiences that GP's and some of the so called NHS specialist urologists aren't very helpful, yeh sure they pump you full of Test but as anyone on TRT knows theres a lot more to it than that.

I would like to propose a new section just for TRT (HRT) as I feel it would be very helpful for those of us that are willing to do so to share their experiences with others, this can only be of great help/interest to all of us on TRT.


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## don1

ballie said:


> Calling all moderators
> 
> There seems to be a fair number of guys on here that are on TRT, I have found that GP's and some of the so called NHS urologists aren't very helpful, yeh sure they pump you full of Test but theres a lot more to it than that.
> 
> I would like to propose a new section just for TRT and HRT as I feel it would be very helpful for people to share experiences etc.


X2


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## BIG BUCK

x3


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## Mingster

Sounds like a good idea to me :thumbup1:


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## m575

pretty sure the reply will be to make a poll and if it proves popular then lorian will look into it


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## don1

milner575 said:


> pretty sure the reply will be to make a poll and if it proves popular then lorian will look into it


Depends on the amount of over 40s on here!

So we might have to keeping bumping this one lol


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## ballie

don1 said:


> Depends on the amount of over 40s on here!
> 
> So we might have to keeping bumping this one lol


Over 40's yeh LOL

However, I was talking to a guy on here last week who was only 32 and on TRT, I think there is a lot of people I could name at least 10 that I found this week but it depends on whether they want to tell everyone by adding support to this idea, its ok people telling you there on TRT too in PM's but whats said on PM's isn't always said on the forum!


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## ausbuilt

another over 40  yes interested


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## Lorian

milner575 said:


> pretty sure the reply will be to make a poll and if it proves popular then lorian will look into it


Correct 

Please make a poll about it .. if the response is good then we'll do it.

Thanks

L


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## ballie

Lorian said:


> Correct
> 
> Please make a poll about it .. if the response is good then we'll do it.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> L


I never done a poll before, I think I have worked out how to do this LOL

Thanks Lorain


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## t hall gym

another 40yr old here great idea


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## SoulXedge

I vote yes let's make this happen


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## Zangief

I'm only 24 & not on TRT, but on the basis I have seen quiet allot of members posting about being on TRT i think its a good idea to be honest. Voted.


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## Replicator

50 + sound good to me

Rep


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## don1

Bump


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## Mingster

Don't think there will be many people voting no - guess it just depends how many vote yes.


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## ballie

Who would vote NO !!! obviously someone who hasn't experienced their body being unable to make is own Testosterone or someone who doesn't understand what TRT is !!! well just in case its the later its - Testosterone Replacement Therapy - (google it) its for life not just for body building.


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## Mingster

And all the younger lifters will get to the stage where this info will be of use to them.


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## ballie

Mingster said:


> And all the younger lifters will get to the stage where this info will be of use to them.


Yes too right, everyone gets older LOL


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## Replicator

Mingster said:


> And all the younger lifters will get to the stage where this info will be of use to them.


this ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Rep


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## Conscript

Who said no, the miserable fvcker....


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## Rick_86

voted mate


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## Ken Hutchinson

Great idea, i'm in


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## golfgttdi

Just voted yes, Im 29 an hope i wont need trt for donkeys yrs but the way i see it i could get in yrs of valuable knowledge for when the inevitable happens!!!!


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## Lorian

That looks pretty clear to me!

I'll get it added soon.

L


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## MRSTRONG

it is a good idea and things like this are a great addition to making a very diverse informative site .


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## mal

im on my own version of hrt at the moment,basicly test mast tren eq proviron

and a ai


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## ballie

Lorian said:


> That looks pretty clear to me!
> 
> I'll get it added soon.
> 
> L


Thank you for your support


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## Mingster

ballie said:


> Thank you for your support


X2


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## don1

Evening gents !


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## Mingster

Evening. How you doing?


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## don1

Come on gents need more votes


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## ballie

don1 said:


> Come on gents need more votes


I think we got it Lorian has posted up on page 2 it will be added shortly. Have a look, I assume thats what they mean


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## steven_SRi

voted yes. i think its a top idea, another reason why this is such a good forum


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## cain87

YESSSSSS can never know to much about what ones body may go through


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## spike

I'm 47 and on legit TRT. I'm a yes.

However, when I say "legit" TRT, only the T bit is legit. The other stuff I add in isn't. Yet.


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## Magic Torch

It would be good for the board and get the traffic up


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## ballie

I realise it a free world and all that but who in their right mind would vote NO.

These two NO voters as sure as eggs are eggs will get old one day and if they start to suffer from Low Test I bet they will be clicking on the new TRT section to gain some info and ask other suffers for they advice!!!

Sorry but I just don't understand why anyone would vote NO, if you don't need it now you might do one day and if you lucky and you never do why not let others have access to infomation they need.


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## hackskii

ballie said:


> I realise it a free world and all that but who in their right mind would vote NO.
> 
> These two NO voters as sure as eggs are eggs will get old one day and if they start to suffer from Low Test I bet they will be clicking on the new TRT section to gain some info and ask other suffers for they advice!!!
> 
> Sorry but I just don't understand why anyone would vote NO, if you don't need it now you might do one day and if you lucky and you never do why not let others have access to infomation they need.


Only problem I have with this is two things.

First one really should have a doc doing this as a moderator, only because of my second reason.

Second, problem I have is the fact that many guys can have issues with testosterone being low even when tested due to many factors not even related to low levels.

Example, you take the test at 4:00 in the afternoon and you may test low.

Now if the doc does not know that at 4:00 your levels wont be where they are at 7:00 in the morning a false test result can occur.

Zinc deficiencies, low fat diets, low cholesterol diets, sleep apnea, vitamin D deficiencies, excess aromatase activity all can lead to low levels of testosterone.

With that said, treating the symptom and not the underlying cause is not the best approach nor avenue.

Something as simple as losing bodyfat, changing diet, all can lead to a benefit of treating the symptom that might not even be diagnosed as hypogonadism.

Not to mention TRT is not standardized procedures.

Creams might cause more conversion to DHT and thus cause more male pattern baldness than lets say compared to injections of testosterone.

Even the injections can cause more aromatase activity, which would then an AI would be added for estrogen management.

Not to mention even the ester used in TRT is not standardized.

See how this could open up a whole can of worms with self diagnosis?

I am all for discussion of TRT, but self administration should be done with a qualified person that has blood tests to suggest a proper diagnosis of hypogonadism.

Not to mention that some men function perfectly fine in the lower end, whereas others perform better at upper ends of normal.

Some want upper end of normal yet might compromise lipid profiles (long term) and potential for higher blood pressure.

So, there are perfectly legitimate reasons for voting no.


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## DiggyV

yes please.

us 40+ guys need all the help we can get.


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## ballie

hackskii said:


> Only problem I have with this is two things.
> 
> First one really should have a doc doing this as a moderator, only because of my second reason.
> 
> Second, problem I have is the fact that many guys can have issues with testosterone being low even when tested due to many factors not even related to low levels.
> 
> Example, you take the test at 4:00 in the afternoon and you may test low.
> 
> Now if the doc does not know that at 4:00 your levels wont be where they are at 7:00 in the morning a false test result can occur.
> 
> Zinc deficiencies, low fat diets, low cholesterol diets, sleep apnea, vitamin D deficiencies, excess aromatase activity all can lead to low levels of testosterone.
> 
> With that said, treating the symptom and not the underlying cause is not the best approach nor avenue.
> 
> Something as simple as losing bodyfat, changing diet, all can lead to a benefit of treating the symptom that might not even be diagnosed as hypogonadism.
> 
> Not to mention TRT is not standardized procedures.
> 
> Creams might cause more conversion to DHT and thus cause more male pattern baldness than lets say compared to injections of testosterone.
> 
> Even the injections can cause more aromatase activity, which would then an AI would be added for estrogen management.
> 
> Not to mention even the ester used in TRT is not standardized.
> 
> See how this could open up a whole can of worms with self diagnosis?
> 
> I am all for discussion of TRT, but self administration should be done with a qualified person that has blood tests to suggest a proper diagnosis of hypogonadism.
> 
> Not to mention that some men function perfectly fine in the lower end, whereas others perform better at upper ends of normal.
> 
> Some want upper end of normal yet might compromise lipid profiles (long term) and potential for higher blood pressure.
> 
> So, there are perfectly legitimate reasons for voting no.


Hackskii - I agree with you ENTIRELY, I am NOT suggesting we use the new section for self diagnoses THAT WOULD BE MAD, My suggestion (if you read my original post) is that many GP's and specialists are not very well informed on TRT and too many just treat the symptom ie low test and do not find out why the persons got low test. My idea behind the forum would be to compare treatments, discuss experiences and learn from others so that when you go and see your GP or specialist you have some knowledge and may be the odd suggestion, maybe if someone finds a well informed specialist we could even ask our GP to be referred to him as under the new NHS patient charter you can ask to see who ever you want.


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## vetran

i am on sp trt/hrt in between cycles or maybe you could call it cruising thats open but whilst ime still heavy in the gear i dont see the point of getting it on prescription it wouldent get you no where.the more knowledge of it the better though.voted


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## hackskii

ballie said:


> Hackskii - I agree with you ENTIRELY, I am NOT suggesting we use the new section for self diagnoses THAT WOULD BE MAD, My suggestion (if you read my original post) is that many GP's and specialists are not very well informed on TRT and too many just treat the symptom ie low test and do not find out why the persons got low test. My idea behind the forum would be to compare treatments, discuss experiences and learn from others so that when you go and see your GP or specialist you have some knowledge and may be the odd suggestion, maybe if someone finds a well informed specialist we could even ask our GP to be referred to him as under the new NHS patient charter you can ask to see who ever you want.


I do understand and yes the information can be used to better the results of one that is diagnosed.

But, I just dont want someone to cut out the doc and do it himself.

Remember, there are two types of hypogonadism.

1. primary where the leydig cells do not produce testosterone.

2. secondary where the pituitary is not sending LH to the leydig cells.

Both will cause pretty much the same thing, but causes of secondary can be treated, example would be a prolactin secreting tumor in the pituitary, that would then get cabaser or a prolactin inhibitor to shrink the tumor and return the pituitary back to normal.

Putting someone on TRT at this point would not be the best bet.

For information purposes great, for self diagnosis it could be tragedy.

I would love for guys to know their options, but not do their own treatment.


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## Fullhouse

Sounds interesting


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## ballie

hackskii said:


> I do understand and yes the information can be used to better the results of one that is diagnosed.
> 
> But, I just dont want someone to cut out the doc and do it himself.
> 
> Remember, there are two types of hypogonadism.
> 
> 1. primary where the leydig cells do not produce testosterone.
> 
> 2. secondary where the pituitary is not sending LH to the leydig cells.
> 
> Both will cause pretty much the same thing, but causes of secondary can be treated, example would be a prolactin secreting tumor in the pituitary, that would then get cabaser or a prolactin inhibitor to shrink the tumor and return the pituitary back to normal.
> 
> Putting someone on TRT at this point would not be the best bet.
> 
> For information purposes great, for self diagnosis it could be tragedy.
> 
> I would love for guys to know their options, but not do their own treatment.


You have hit my situation on the nail, I sent you a message but I am now going to also post it on here too, so everyone can see how the NHS specialist can be totally useless as from what you have just said I might not even need TRT as your suggesting there might be other treatment for me, as at first I was told its my pituitary not dealing with the LH correctly then I get put on TRT. I post it up in a minute


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## ballie

Well this is my story, hope its not to boring.

I am on TRT I went to my doc about a year ago feeling crap my libido had dropped my body fat was increasing and very hard to shift, my moods were horrible, I couldn't give a fcuk about anyone or anything it put a lot of strain on my wife and our 25 years together.

My doc did blood tests and it came back that my test level was 5 my doc said he could just give me a test injection but it would be better to send me to a urologist to find out why my test was low.

The urologist did blood tests and I had ultra sound on my testicles, his verdict was that my testicles were fine but my pituitary gland was not functioning correctly and I should have a brain scan to see if there was a pituitary tumor. I went through hell and high water to get my medical insurers BUPA to agree to pay the £800 for the scan but then my urologist said not to bother with the scan and put me on TRT (testosterone pellet implants) 4 months later I go back to see him and I tell him its changed my life my fat is easier to lose, I have gained muscle, my libido is back my moods are good and my life is back to normal if not better. But I mention to him that I would like to find out why my pituitary gland isn't working in case it is a tumor, he then says well it could be your testicales not working!!!

As you can see he is bloody useless he changes his story all the time (there is more to this but this is the short version) and in the end all he did was check I had no cancer and that I was suitable for TRT and pump me full of Test, now one year on and I am no nearer to finding out WHY I need TRT.

This is the idea behind the new TRT forum to discuss our own experiences and find some GOOD doctors that we can all use, I am not suggesting for one minute that we self diagnose. See we do need doctors to treat us and monitor us but there are good and bad doctors and this forum could help people either get the treatment they need or stop them getting treatment they don't.


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## hackskii

Nice post, and for that I agree.

To get the big picture on what is up you just can't get serum testosterone and determine anything.

Do you have bloods?

LH, FSH, free test, and serum test, E2, prolactin and the like?

This would enable one to get a snapshot of what is going on, heck even excessive cortisol levels can hammer down testosterone levels.

So, with the more information the better.

I am all in for a TRT part of the board, but it would work best with an expert that knows how to interpret bloods.

Hopefully we can get an expert here to aid in this.

I have been on TRT myself and didnt like it, but I was not diagnosed with hypogonadism outside of being post cycle.


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## Guest

x


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## ballie

hackskii said:


> Nice post, and for that I agree.
> 
> To get the big picture on what is up you just can't get serum testosterone and determine anything.
> 
> Do you have bloods?
> 
> LH, FSH, free test, and serum test, E2, prolactin and the like?
> 
> This would enable one to get a snapshot of what is going on, heck even excessive cortisol levels can hammer down testosterone levels.
> 
> So, with the more information the better.
> 
> I am all in for a TRT part of the board, but it would work best with an expert that knows how to interpret bloods.
> 
> Hopefully we can get an expert here to aid in this.
> 
> I have been on TRT myself and didnt like it, but I was not diagnosed with hypogonadism outside of being post cycle.


I will have a look in my files tonight I think I have kept all the results of the blood test he did however they will be in UK form not USA, I will post them up soon


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## haza

I think this is great, I'm 33 and was put on testosterone gels with not much explanation, then I had to wait 5 month to see doc to ask what the he'lls going on, but eventually I did get told it was my lifestyle I.e I have degenerated back desiese and am on high amounts of opiods morphine, then subutex, Valium, antidepressants, don't sleep very good, he says to stay on 1 gel a day until I reduce my Meds, he says I'm hypogonadism through medication I.e opiods, and he will stop my gel when I reduce all pain Meds, and he reckons I,ll be ok again my test will rise


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## hackskii

haza said:


> I think this is great, I'm 33 and was put on testosterone gels with not much explanation, then I had to wait 5 month to see doc to ask what the he'lls going on, but eventually I did get told it was my lifestyle I.e I have degenerated back desiese and am on high amounts of opiods morphine, then subutex, Valium, antidepressants, don't sleep very good, he says to stay on 1 gel a day until I reduce my Meds, he says I'm hypogonadism through medication I.e opiods, and he will stop my gel when I reduce all pain Meds, and he reckons I,ll be ok again my test will rise


That actually makes sense.


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## Smitch

Subutex is a pretty hardcore drug, they give that to smack heads to help wean them off.

On topic, I had my test levels checked about 8 weeks ago and they came back fine. At 35 I thought they might be getting low but glad to see that they were ok.


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## ballie

hackskii said:


> Nice post, and for that I agree.
> 
> To get the big picture on what is up you just can't get serum testosterone and determine anything.
> 
> Do you have bloods?
> 
> LH, FSH, free test, and serum test, E2, prolactin and the like?
> 
> This would enable one to get a snapshot of what is going on, heck even excessive cortisol levels can hammer down testosterone levels.
> 
> So, with the more information the better.


This is what i got.

FSH 3.6

LH 3.7

Prolactin 179

Testosterone 6.8

The date for these tests was 21/09/10 my testostrone 2 months before this was 3.5 but I had been taking some MHP T-Bombs which I assume is why my testostrone was up to 6.8 ? Anyway from these results my NHS consultant Urogolist told me that I had a Piturity plobem and put me on TRT, he also had my ultra sound results which simple says my testes look normal although there is a small amount of fluid around the left teste but this is most likely within normal limits.


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## hackskii

ballie said:


> This is what i got.
> 
> FSH 3.6
> 
> LH 3.7
> 
> Prolactin 179
> 
> Testosterone 6.8
> 
> The date for these tests was 21/09/10 my testostrone 2 months before this was 3.5 but I had been taking some MHP T-Bombs which I assume is why my testostrone was up to 6.8 ? Anyway from these results my NHS consultant Urogolist told me that I had a Piturity plobem and put me on TRT, he also had my ultra sound results which simple says my testes look normal although there is a small amount of fluid around the left teste but this is most likely within normal limits.


Do you have reference ranges for those numbers?


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## daniron

60 for, 3 against ... lets make this happen.


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## dtlv

I think it's a great idea - maybe someone with a lot of knowledge/experience on this could also do a sticky type post or two explaining what TRT is all about... would be a good to start the section off with some informative type threads to clarify the difference between taking test for pure bodybuilding and for general hormonal support.


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## ballie

hackskii said:


> Do you have reference ranges for those numbers?


On the piece of paper with the results after the levels it says the following

FSH 3.6 - IU/L (1.5 - 12.4)

LH 3.7 - IU/L (1.7 - 8.6)

Prolactin 179 - mIU/l (98 - 456)

Testosterone 6.8 - nmol/l (8.7 - 29.0)

Sorry this dosen't mean anything to me I don't understand any of it, the consultant said that my body is sending a signal to my piturity that it needs testosterone but my piturity isn't sending the signal down to my testes to make it, thats what he told me from looking at these bloods, but then some months later when I said I would like to find out whats wrong with my piturity gland he said "maybe nothing it could be your testes" !!! it was at this piont I lost all confidence in him.


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## hackskii

ballie said:


> On the piece of paper with the results after the levels it says the following
> 
> FSH 3.6 - IU/L (1.5 - 12.4)
> 
> LH 3.7 - IU/L (1.7 - 8.6)
> 
> Prolactin 179 - mIU/l (98 - 456)
> 
> Testosterone 6.8 - nmol/l (8.7 - 29.0)
> 
> Sorry this dosen't mean anything to me I don't understand any of it, the consultant said that my body is sending a signal to my piturity that it needs testosterone but my piturity isn't sending the signal down to my testes to make it, thats what he told me from looking at these bloods, but then some months later when I said I would like to find out whats wrong with my piturity gland he said "maybe nothing it could be your testes" !!! it was at this piont I lost all confidence in him.


Well, from what I see is your LH is low middle yet your T levels are under low end of normal.

If the test was taken in the afternoon then you might be at low end of normal for T levels.

If it was taken in the morning then I am afraid it looks more like primary hypogonadism to me.

LH is being sent to the testicles and the testicles are not responding too well.

Not sure but leydig cell sensitivity might be an issue but I am by no means an endocrine doctor so my information is worthless.

Some things do help with leydig cell sensitivity and might be something you could look into, but then again it could be anything from stress, to sleep apnea, to zinc deficiency, to a low fat, low cholesterol diet, heavy endurance athlete stuff, to anything really.


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## ballie

The tests were taken at around 7pm, I see what you are saying but its the oppersite opinion to my Doctor, I am going to go back and see my GP in couple of months and ask to see an endocrinologist. I dont mind being on TRT as I feel better now than I have felt for years, but as you say I don't want to be on it if I don't need to be. Thanks for your time anyway.


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## hackskii

ballie said:


> The tests were taken at around 7pm, I see what you are saying but its the oppersite opinion to my Doctor, I am going to go back and see my GP in couple of months and ask to see an endocrinologist. I dont mind being on TRT as I feel better now than I have felt for years, but as you say I don't want to be on it if I don't need to be. Thanks for your time anyway.


Timing of the test is important, see the chart below, testosterone rises and falls throughout the day, this is called the circadian rhythm.

Also, there is a test called the clomid stimulation test, this is where they give you clomid at 100mg ED for 5 to 7 days and then test your LH and FSH. Your levels can double LH output and increase FSH by 20% to 50%.

This tests the pituitary's response.

Also below is a guide that endo doctors use for determining hypogonadism, check that out, it will give you some insight to what it is they do.



hypogonadism.pdf


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## dtlv

I reckon my friend Hackskii has enough free time to do a sticky on TRT... certainly the man for the job with his knowledge and experience :tongue:


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## hackskii

Dtlv74 said:


> I reckon my friend Hackskii has enough free time to do a sticky on TRT... certainly the man for the job with his knowledge and experience :tongue:


But I have no credentials what so ever, no degrees, and only a modest high school diploma.

Hell, even the best of the docs do not agree with each other..... :lol:

I do agree though, there is not enough information one gets do diagnose nor offer the option of what is best for the person.

Creams, jells, patches, injections (sub-Q, IM), pellets, pills, all have different sides, and administration times, not to mention bio-identical, or otherwise. :lol:


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