# Questions about Lantus, Novorapid, GH and fat intake



## Meadey (Oct 18, 2020)

Hey all,

Just came off stage at 101kg (can add pics when I get home if needed) and a 9 days later im 105kg. Increasing food intake and I'm now up tp ~550c, 370p ~30f. I have noticable water retention in my abd and quads.

My current protocol is as follows:

1g EQ (split into EOD, finished front loading)

1g Test (split into EOD, front loaded to peak at same time as EQ)

100 tren ace (EOD)

40iu Lantus upon waking

3iu GH upon waking.

5iu Novorapid Pre and Post workout.

I am not taking an AI on this (yet) as I find that EQ can control the higher test.

I'm trying to use this rebound period to make some great gains, hence the big cycle.

Today was the first day i did Novorapid pre/post and I used 65g Dextrose in an intraworkout shake, this put my blood sugar post training at 7.8 nmol, so I will use 50g carb power next time (switching to waxy maize).

My waking BP is 120-135/65-75 so no concerns there for me

My current diet is as follows (all raw weight).

M1: 100g ground rice, 2 crumpets, 30g whey, 6 egg whites. Total: ~140c 55p trace fat

Pre workout: 100g ground rice 30g whey ~75c 30p trace fat

Intra workout (start sipping after Novorapid inj) 50g Dextrose/Wazy Maize, 15g EAA, Creatine. 50c 15p 0f

Post Workout 1: (after Novorapid inj) 1 bagel 20g Jam 30g whey ~55c 30p trace fat

Post Workout 2: 100g Rice 300g Frozen weight fish. 75c 55p trace fat

M2/3/4 200g Rice 600g chicken split in 3 meals + veg. 150c 155p Trace fat.

M5 (pre bed): 120g steak 6 egg whites. 0c 50p <10f

Total: 545c 390p ~30f. 4000c but will likely need to add more carbs as I'm more active now I'm back at work.

I did a low carb (300) rest day and felt miserable and woke up with fasting blood sugars way too low, so likely I'll do rest days the same and just remove the carbs/eaa that I use during Novorapid inj.

My questions:

Am I right to avoid fats while Lantus is active in my system?

Should I do low carb rest days for insulin sentitivity?

If not, should I keep lantus in on off days?

Is waxy maize a better carb source than dextrose for Novorapid?

I have been reading first time GH can cause a lot of water retention. Is this why I'm holding water in the abs/legs? Any other reasons people may see?

Any other comments are welcomed

Thanks


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## Bensif (Aug 28, 2011)

Meadey said:


> Hey all,
> 
> Just came off stage at 101kg (can add pics when I get home if needed) and a 9 days later im 105kg. Increasing food intake and I'm now up tp ~550c, 370p ~30f. I have noticable water retention in my abd and quads.
> 
> ...


 I thought id respond to this one as your stack is fairly complex and I would assume your a fairly advanced competitor.

There are very few coaches that know how to use Lantus effectively in a growth phase. I would say probably 3 that I would trust. It is a very misunderstood form of insulin when it comes to bodybuilding and most guys end up getting very fat, very quickly with it.

I'm loathed to go into details at the risk of guys jumping on it hoping they get huge quickly.

Fats - don't avoid them. You want them in there, especially poly-unsaturated fats. I am not saying go HAM, but you need dietary fat to grow optimally.

Rest days - yes, but this is a matter of opinion. Personally I prefer overall caloric intake, as well as carb in take to be right down on these days. Fats up, especially if limiting them overall on training days (as above you want them, but less so around training window, especially if using novorapid)

Lantus frequency - depends on the person and metabolism, but personally I feel it works best when used 2-3 days of the week. Certainly not every day.

Carbs - not a fan of the carb drinks and the coaches I know that use lantus heavily aren't either. In some cases, things like gatorade but this is more person dependant.

The shakes thing originates from Milos. IMO.... this isn't leading to real tissue gains. You are just over saturating the cells with glycogen and getting a temporary, fuller look. Some may disagree (he would).

You really need to tailor you insulin intake, as well as type of insulin used to your diet. E.g. if you diet has an intra drink in it (unrelated to insulin) with 50g carbs, then 3-5iu novorapid pre-workout would make sense. IF you are adding novorapid pre-workout, then carbs to compensate, then you have this backwards.

IMO the water retention from insulin, especially lantus is worse than GH (in my experience anyway). You need to be conscious of spilling over here too. But to answer your question, yes, GH will cause you to retain more fluid subq. Both substances cause increased sodium retention. This is hard to combat, especially when it comes to GH due to aldosterone.

Personally, if you want to make the most of your rebound and are competing at a good national level, Id get with an experienced competitive coach. Happy to give my recommendations who I think are good, trustworthy and actually care about their clients.

Lastly, you will get softer with this approach. Its inevitable. It's just something to accept when it comes to insulin use over a sustained period of time in combination with high caloric intake.


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## Meadey (Oct 18, 2020)

Bensif said:


> I thought id respond to this one as your stack is fairly complex and I would assume your a fairly advanced competitor.
> 
> There are very few coaches that know how to use Lantus effectively in a growth phase. I would say probably 3 that I would trust. It is a very misunderstood form of insulin when it comes to bodybuilding and most guys end up getting very fat, very quickly with it.
> 
> ...


 Thank you for the reply mate.

Is it not true that fats will get shuttled around the body by the lantus and tend towards fat storage then?

How much Polyunsaturated fats should I be aiming for?

About the shake, I always have 25-50g intra workout shake as part of my carb intake and this covers the insulin fine as I found out today, so it was not an addition because of the insulin.

As for rest days, I did a low carb higher fat approach and felt miserable all day (no lantus). I did drop a kilo overnight though but looked a lot less full. My calories will be down regardless and I was thinking of just removing peri workout extra carbs.


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## strawberry123 (Sep 29, 2019)

Bensif said:


> I thought id respond to this one as your stack is fairly complex and I would assume your a fairly advanced competitor.
> 
> There are very few coaches that know how to use Lantus effectively in a growth phase. I would say probably 3 that I would trust. It is a very misunderstood form of insulin when it comes to bodybuilding and most guys end up getting very fat, very quickly with it.
> 
> ...


 Out of interest bud what is the water retention like from say 5iu post workout novorapid in your opinion. I never really notice any when I've used this amount. By what mechanism does fast insulin retain water?


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## Bensif (Aug 28, 2011)

Meadey said:


> Thank you for the reply mate.
> 
> Is it not true that fats will get shuttled around the body by the lantus and tend towards fat storage then?
> 
> ...


 Any fat in take, irrespective of exogenous insulin will always be more favourable to fat cells when in a caloric surplus. Yes, you will burn some etc, but it's the simplest macronutrient for the body to store.

Beyond Milos, the whole 'super low fat' thing seems to stem from some dark corner of the Internet.

I couldn't give you an exact number for PUFA intake as I don't know your body. But at least 30%, preferably 50%. Again, irrespective of insulin.

You have two options with the carbs;

- run them high every day and be prepared for a 're-sensitise' phase in 6-10 weeks depending on your body (this happens to most people irrespective of insulin use but it will speed this up to a certain degree)

- titrate carbs across your week and have the lower carb days. Total depends on your activity. Some guys can do 200-300g, some need to be sub 100g

I should probably caveat everything I am posting with the fact I am not a fan of insulin and I don't personally believe it builds muscle. But as I said previously, I do know of a minority of coaches using specifically lantus and building very large bodybuilders



strawberry123 said:


> Out of interest bud what is the water retention like from say 5iu post workout novorapid in your opinion. I never really notice any when I've used this amount. By what mechanism does fast insulin retain water?


 It isn't specific to novorapid. I'm honestly not entirely sure from a biological point of view, but I believe it is due to both increase uptake of potassium into the cells and renal sodium absorption. I think this has a knock on effect on aldosterone.

In terms of what a person my experience, everyone is different. 5iu post workout only is unlikely to have much of an effect. It's also debatable whether post workout insulin is even beneficial


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## Meadey (Oct 18, 2020)

Bensif said:


> Any fat in take, irrespective of exogenous insulin will always be more favourable to fat cells when in a caloric surplus. Yes, you will burn some etc, but it's the simplest macronutrient for the body to store.
> 
> Beyond Milos, the whole 'super low fat' thing seems to stem from some dark corner of the Internet.
> 
> ...


 Thank you mate, I think then I'll keep the steak in the last meal and add a few eggs. It should increase fats and add some PUFA and it'll be when the insulin is least active.

That said I think I need a calorie increase in general, I feel very drained and if I'm holding a lot of water then I've not really gained much post show at all. I think I may as well use this rebound time to push food hard and grow, especially now the EQ and Test are kicked in fully. Thoughts?


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## Bensif (Aug 28, 2011)

Meadey said:


> Thank you mate, I think then I'll keep the steak in the last meal and add a few eggs. It should increase fats and add some PUFA and it'll be when the insulin is least active.
> 
> That said I think I need a calorie increase in general, I feel very drained and if I'm holding a lot of water then I've not really gained much post show at all. I think I may as well use this rebound time to push food hard and grow, especially now the EQ and Test are kicked in fully. Thoughts?


 The drained feeling could be related to both the insulin and GH.

I don't like rapid gain immediately post show, it can put the kidneys in a risky position if you blow up with 10-15lbs of water. Everyone has a different approach but I feel taking your time to slowly climb 10-15lbs over 16-20 weeks or so puts the body in a much better position.

I would push the food, but beyond being fully replenished / full, I wouldn't aim for more than 1lb a week in the first month post show.

That is a nice steady rate, let's the body accrue some needed fat again (you need to get body fat up to function optimally) but doesn't let body fat get quickly out of control.

Its horses for courses though.

Did you not work with a coach pre contest?


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## Meadey (Oct 18, 2020)

Bensif said:


> The drained feeling could be related to both the insulin and GH.
> 
> I don't like rapid gain immediately post show, it can put the kidneys in a risky position if you blow up with 10-15lbs of water. Everyone has a different approach but I feel taking your time to slowly climb 10-15lbs over 16-20 weeks or so puts the body in a much better position.
> 
> ...


 Yes I worked with a coach mate, but I was in a mentally poor position during prep and we've decided to take a step back and get out of each others hair for a bit. I run things past him of course but there are many ways to gain weight. Since I've never done a true 'Bodybuilding' off season (ex powerlifter) we are just kinda trying what works. However I'm perfectionist and want to get this right.

4k calories on training days I believe are just not cutting it - almost want to take the gh15 approach and just blow up as an experiment, lol. In fact, late shift at work I may go get a meal off. He says youre fine to eat like crap every now and again with tren and gh in the system but i'm sure youre aware of that and how much people disagree with him. I'm in a weird state mentally that I avoid free meals and am scared to push calories.

I just worry a little about the water retention - I don't like it. I can see its just water gain by pinching my skin but it's hard mentally you know.


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## mal (Dec 31, 2009)

Fvckin hell lantus and novo in same cycle ..never heard of that


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## Bensif (Aug 28, 2011)

Meadey said:


> Yes I worked with a coach mate, but I was in a mentally poor position during prep and we've decided to take a step back and get out of each others hair for a bit. I run things past him of course but there are many ways to gain weight. Since I've never done a true 'Bodybuilding' off season (ex powerlifter) we are just kinda trying what works. However I'm perfectionist and want to get this right.
> 
> 4k calories on training days I believe are just not cutting it - almost want to take the gh15 approach and just blow up as an experiment, lol. In fact, late shift at work I may go get a meal off. He says youre fine to eat like crap every now and again with tren and gh in the system but i'm sure youre aware of that and how much people disagree with him. I'm in a weird state mentally that I avoid free meals and am scared to push calories.
> 
> I just worry a little about the water retention - I don't like it. I can see its just water gain by pinching my skin but it's hard mentally you know.


 Honestly I got wrapped up in the whole gh15 thing years ago. Don't be fooled by it and stay away from it. Who ever was running that account from 2014 onwards was full of s**t.

I still talk to some of the guys I got to know on there, couple are pro now. At one point we all shared the same coach.

I feel the same when it comes to water retention. I hate the fat feeling so personally I set myself up so that water is minimal.

You won't 'blow up' post show. When you see examples of that, it's often with guys that have lost a tonne of tissue during prep and were flat as f**k on stage. Poor nutritional strategy and overuse of t3 during prep usually.

You have to think, if you are due to compete again in say 12 months, you have 9 months of growing. If by the start of prep you can be 30lbs over stage, you will likely have another 7-10lbs of muscle if everything else was in place. So call it 20lbs of fat gain.

3lb gain total per month on average.

So in short don't rush to add scale weight.

Again, horses for courses and depends on your frame.


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## Meadey (Oct 18, 2020)

Bensif said:


> Honestly I got wrapped up in the whole gh15 thing years ago. Don't be fooled by it and stay away from it. Who ever was running that account from 2014 onwards was full of s**t.
> 
> I still talk to some of the guys I got to know on there, couple are pro now. At one point we all shared the same coach.
> 
> ...


 You're right, of course you are and I know that. Kind of messed the water retention thing up already adding gh and slin haven't I? Haha

I guess that'll drop off though.

Thinking about it (I dont have my log to hand) I'm pretty sure I was up to 105kg in a couple of days, so really my weight hasn't moved in almost a week (5 days?) Perfect time to increase? I just want to completely do this off season right and I am always scared to add an off meal or an increase in calories, even when I am almost certain I need it


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## jj1996 (Oct 20, 2019)

Bensif said:


> I thought id respond to this one as your stack is fairly complex and I would assume your a fairly advanced competitor.
> 
> There are very few coaches that know how to use Lantus effectively in a growth phase. I would say probably 3 that I would trust. It is a very misunderstood form of insulin when it comes to bodybuilding and most guys end up getting very fat, very quickly with it.
> 
> ...


 Hi Ben,

If you dont mind can share the names of coaches that are quite good in this field?


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## Bensif (Aug 28, 2011)

jj1996 said:


> Hi Ben,
> 
> If you dont mind can share the names of coaches that are quite good in this field?


 If it's lantus someone is interested in, Bleu Taylor is by far the best. He's pricey but Bleu's only business and focus is his clients. So it's a high level of coaching.

People often cite Milos, but unless you're a good pro, he will take your money and you won't hear much in return sadly (seen this too many times).


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## Meadey (Oct 18, 2020)

Hey Ben,

Sorry to just keep asking you questions, like above I get relaly hesitant to increase food or plan a meal off. If my weight's been stagnant for a few days shall I just go for it and get growing?


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## Bensif (Aug 28, 2011)

Meadey said:


> Hey Ben,
> 
> Sorry to just keep asking you questions, like above I get relaly hesitant to increase food or plan a meal off. If my weight's been stagnant for a few days shall I just go for it and get growing?


 I wouldn't increase Someone's food after only 5 days. Post show, so much is going on with the body; you need to let it settle. Water subsides, fluid balance restores, glycogen replenishes, inflammation increases as you start training so you get some more water build again etc.

Give yourself two weeks to balance out and assess weight. It's a marathon, not a sprint


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## Meadey (Oct 18, 2020)

Bensif said:


> I wouldn't increase Someone's food after only 5 days. Post show, so much is going on with the body; you need to let it settle. Water subsides, fluid balance restores, glycogen replenishes, inflammation increases as you start training so you get some more water build again etc.
> 
> Give yourself two weeks to balance out and assess weight. It's a marathon, not a sprint


 God dahm this hunger will kill me, haha


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## Bensif (Aug 28, 2011)

Meadey said:


> God dahm this hunger will kill me, haha


 Exogenous Insulin will raise appetite, so removing it will probably help.


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

I was ready to write a big answer but then I read what had been written by @Bensif and I would say the exact same especially about insulin use.

I will add insulin is not anabolic (please no one bore me with secondary actions blah blah blah) it is not needed especially post-show, your body will only build muscle tissue at a certain rate nothing you can take will noticeably change that.

Pretty much everyone over diets so post-show the size that is gained is just glycogen and water recompensation it has very little to do with drugs.


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