# Udos choice



## Ken Hutchinson

Can someone put me right here please, because i am sure i have got this wrong, here is what it says on the label.

Per 100ml

Energy: 900kcal/3767.4kJ

Carbohydrates: 0g

Fat: 96.8g

of which:

Saturates: 12.4g

Monounsaturates (Oleic Acid): 19.7g

Polyunsaturates: 64.7g

of which:

Omega 3 fatty acids: 45g

alpha linoleic acid (LNA): 45g

Omega 6 fatty acids: 19.7g

linolenic acid (LA): 19.6g

gamma-linolenic acid (GLA): 83mg

Cholesterol: 0g

Fibre: 0g

Sodium: 0g

Per 30ml (2 tbsp)

Energy: 270 kcal /1130.22 kJ

Carbohydrates: 0g

Fat: 29g

of which:

Saturates: 3.7g

Monounsaturates (Oleic Acid): 5.9g

Polyunsaturates:19.4g

of which:

Omega 3 fatty acids: 13.5g

alpha linoleic acid (LNA): 13.5g

Omega 6 fatty acids: 5.9g

linolenic acid (LA): 5.8g

gamma-linolenic acid (GLA): 25mg

Cholesterol: 0g

Fibre: 0g

Sodium: 0g

so if i'm reading this right you get 29g of fat per 30ml, thats like taking nearly 30 1000mg fish oil caps or 60 500mg fish oil caps aday, if that is true it has to be cheaper than buying fish oil caps.


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## 71081

its what I use to get my fats in pal. Just add it to my early morning shake.

My skin is looking very healthy, my joints feel good!

Going to do low carb soon, so will be having it three times a day soon.

Good products.

Shop around and get it quite cheap.

Tastes like shit though :thumbup1:


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## sizar

yes it's true mate..


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## irishdude

how much is it in UK? Can't get it over here but considering buying on the net.


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## sizar

holland and barret does them but it's abit more money than website ..

www.discount-supplements.co.uk

cheapest there mate


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## irishdude

sizar said:


> holland and barret does them but it's abit more money than website ..
> 
> www.discount-supplements.co.uk
> 
> cheapest there mate


cheers mate:thumb:, how you getting on by the way?


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## sizar

Great mate .. everything is going how i want it to ..


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## Get2ZeChoppNOOW

Been using this for a while now, Seems to be a bit cheaper on ebay atm


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## PRL

Awesome product and as said earlier very good in low carb diets. Trust me can be a acquired taste after a while. Love it.


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## frowningbudda

Is it best to keep this stuff in the fridge?


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## BRmitch

PRL said:


> Awesome product and as said earlier very good in low carb diets. Trust me can be a acquired taste after a while. Love it.


yeah definatly, i used to hate it at the beginning, now after only about 4 week im loving it. i find that the bottle last alot longer than i worked out as well. im only having 2tbsp 2twice a day, buhh think il up it to 3.



frowningbudda said:


> Is it best to keep this stuff in the fridge?


yeah buddy, it says on the box to be kept in the fridge.

for me this product has been amazing, i was having trouble with my joints, specially my knees when squatting and my elbows when doing heavy dumbbell flys, however now i dont feel any strain at all its great.

can someone who takes the product please awnser a question for me though. since taking this i feel hungier, has anyone else experianced this?


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## Gym-pig

Udus is a true super supplement !

Works absolute wonders for my joints !

Id recommend it to anyone ......over a certain age


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## hackskii

Omega 3 profile in udo's is not as good as fish oils by a long margin.

Generally our diets are high in Omega 6's and low in 3's

No sense in supplementing Omega 6's when the ratio is already not right.

Just use fish oils for your Omega 3's.


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## Raptor

hackskii said:


> Omega 3 profile in udo's is not as good as fish oils by a long margin.
> 
> Generally our diets are high in Omega 6's and low in 3's
> 
> No sense in supplementing Omega 6's when the ratio is already not right.
> 
> Just use fish oils for your Omega 3's.


Omega 3 fatty acids: 45g per 100ml

Thats pretty high imo and beats drinking nasty oil or taking 30 caps made with gelatine


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## Galtonator

even tastes nice in porridge


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## hackskii

The Raptor said:


> Omega 3 fatty acids: 45g per 100ml
> 
> Thats pretty high imo and beats drinking nasty oil or taking 30 caps made with gelatine


But that is from flax.

Flax oil is not the right ratio and is missing all sorts of key elements, plus you would need almost 10 times the amount to exert the effect that fish oils provide.

Because udos comes from flax you wont get the Omega 3's as there is a loss in conversion from ALA to Omega 3, and that loss is huge, below will explain.

Snip:

Fish vs. Flax

The optimal intake of LA compared with ALA appears critical for the metabolism of omega-3 fatty acids. An increase in AA, EPA, and DHA leads to an increase in membrane fluidity, alters the structure of the membrane receptors, and can have other beneficial effects associated with the omega-3 fatty acids. They also play a role in the regulation of cell surface expression, cell-cell interactions, and cytokine release.10 A ratio of 1:4 (LA:ALA) or less is recommended for conversion of ALA to longer chain metabolites (EPA and DHA).9 This is an important concept for vegetarians, whose diets are often much richer in LA. The intake of 3 grams per day to 4 grams per day of ALA is equivalent to 0.3 grams per day of EPA with optimal elongation. (This means you need 10 times as much flax to get the same benefits as fish aka 120g of flax oil or an additional 1000 calories of flax in order to match the benefits of just 12g of fish oils aka 108 calories added... follow????)

ALA(from flax) does not appear to be comparable with its biological effects, compared with EPA and DHA found in fish oil. It appears that the EPA and DHA from marine oils are more rapidly incorporated into plasma and membrane lipids. Algae and some fungi are also capable of forming omega-3 fatty acids de novo, and the DHA from algae supplements needs to be explored further (as in teh whole food vitamins I reccomend follow???).


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## hackskii

http://www.omega3sealoil.com/Chapter4_3c.html

Since the human conversion of ALA to EPA and DHA is somewhat slow, only about 15% of ALA converts to EPA and 5% DHA

Several factors inhibit conversion of ALA to it's long-chain Metabolites (EPA and DHA)

A diet high in LA (common in US) can inhibit conversion by as much as 40%

Saturated and trans fatty acids inhibits ALA desaturation and elongation

A deficiency of any of the vitamins and mineral co-factors (vitamin B3, B6, C, Zinc and Magnesium) required by elongase and Delta-6-desaturase may inhibit conversion to EPA and DHA

Loss of Delta-6 desaturates activity that occurs during normal aging

Certain health conditions such as diabetes and drugs, inhibits Delta - 6-saturase activity and prevents conversion to EPA and DHA

Certain populations, such as North American natives, Inuit, Orientals, Norwegians, and Welsh-Irish may not effectively convert ALA to EPA in the body

The use of ALA labeled with radioisotopes suggested that, with a background diet high in saturated fat, conversion to long-chain metabolites is 6% for EPA and 3.8% for DHA. With a diet rich in Omega 6 PUFA, conversion is reduced by 40% to 50%. It is thus reasonable to observe an Omega 6/Omega3 PUFA ratio not exceeding 4-6:1.

Some ALA can be inverted into our bodies to teh longer chain Omega 3's EPA and DHA. ALthough the scientific literature is mixed on this issue, humans may be unable to convert enough ALA to EPA and DHA to achieve optimal levels of these long-chain Omega 3's.

So, again, much of the Omega 3's are not going to be able to be converted to EPA and DHA in Udo's oil.

Not to mention the fact that it already has Omega 6 fatty acids in it.

Now if the current rat of Omega 3 to Omega 6 is around 1/10 to 1/25 and the optimal range is 1/1 to 1/4, why add an Omega 6 to the oil when it already has too much in the diet anyway?

Udo's = no

Fish oils = yes

If you want to add Omaga 3's to your diet, just get fish oils, krill oil, or eat a diet high in fish that have alot of Omega 3's like salmon.


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## SD

Good post Scott :thumb:

What Hacks is trying to say is if your ratio of omega 3 to 6 is already imbalanced and the assumption is that your goal should be to add more omega 3 to even the score, then adding a supplement containing omega 6 wont be beneficial and could even be harmful BUT

It wont make the situation a whole lot worse at low dosage, so what I do is use 1 tablespoon a day, as it tastes much better than any other oil and is still very healthy, I also add 20g flax seed to my morning smoothie, I then ensure I eat one portion of oily fish per day and take 6 fish oil capsules.

So Udo's Yes! but with a but :tongue: . Btw this was a question and not an article so it got put in the wrong section until Scott answered with an article now I guess it qualifies!! lol :thumbup1:

SD


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## Tony Barnes

Hey Scott - been a while, just searching around for udos discussions in google, spotted this so thought I'd throw in my tuppence. For those on here who don't know me, I work for Savant, and we are the importers of Udos.



hackskii said:


> But that is from flax.
> 
> Snip:
> 
> Fish vs. Flax
> 
> The optimal intake of LA compared with ALA appears critical for the metabolism of omega-3 fatty acids. An increase in AA, EPA, and DHA leads to an increase in membrane fluidity, alters the structure of the membrane receptors, and can have other beneficial effects associated with the omega-3 fatty acids. They also play a role in the regulation of cell surface expression, cell-cell interactions, and cytokine release.10 A ratio of 1:4 (LA:ALA) or less is recommended for conversion of ALA to longer chain metabolites (EPA and DHA).
> 
> *The ratio here is correct, ideally 1:4 down to 1:2 or lower for when on a cut. This is also important for reduction in AA release for series 2 prostaglandins.*
> 
> 9 This is an important concept for vegetarians, whose diets are often much richer in LA. The intake of 3 grams per day to 4 grams per day of ALA is equivalent to 0.3 grams per day of EPA with optimal elongation. (This means you need 10 times as much flax to get the same benefits as fish aka 120g of flax oil or an additional 1000 calories of flax in order to match the benefits of just 12g of fish oils aka 108 calories added... follow????)
> 
> *The assumption that EPA/DHA is the "ideal" form of omega 3 is horrifically flawed:*
> 
> *
> *
> 
> *
> Firstly, if it was, then why is there a negative feedback loop that prevents the ALA conversion pathway if there is already EPA/DHA present in the diet?*
> 
> *
> *
> 
> *
> Secondly, how come ALA gets used in vastly more subcellular organelles than EPA/DHA?*
> 
> *
> *
> 
> *
> Thirdly, how come DHA can be converted back to EPA? - this goes against the grain of the logic that more unsaturated & more elongated = better*
> 
> *
> *
> 
> *
> Fourthly, how do you ensure that you can balance out the bottom end of the elongation/desaturation pathway to ensure that you get the benefits from the omega 6 pathway (which is responsible for the series 1 prostaglandins that exert an actual anti-inflammatory effect, rather than exerting a prevention of an inflammatory effect like the series 3 that come from fish oils) which has already been and gone by the time you look at EPA?*
> 
> ALA(from flax) does not appear to be comparable with its biological effects, compared with EPA and DHA found in fish oil. It appears that the EPA and DHA from marine oils are more rapidly incorporated into plasma and membrane lipids. Algae and some fungi are also capable of forming omega-3 fatty acids de novo, and the DHA from algae supplements needs to be explored further (as in teh whole food vitamins I reccomend follow???).
> 
> *How much fish oil are you taking? You float the idea of 10g above - is that concentrated 180/120 oil? That is well beyond advisory amounts, amounts over 5g a day have been linked with oxidative stress. Speaking to proffs at loughborough uni using high dose fish oils this was their main concern robbing peter to pay paul.*
> 
> *
> *
> 
> *
> Even given the "low" conversion rate (most research on this is done with an omega 3:6 ratio that isn't actually in line with first recommendation in this post) you sail through the amount required to generate decent amounts when having 30ml+ udos daily.*





> Since the human conversion of ALA to EPA and DHA is somewhat slow, only about 15% of ALA converts to EPA and 5% DHA
> 
> *True, see above for relevance*
> 
> Several factors inhibit conversion of ALA to it's long-chain Metabolites (EPA and DHA)
> 
> *True*
> 
> A diet high in LA (common in US) can inhibit conversion by as much as 40%
> 
> Saturated and trans fatty acids inhibits ALA desaturation and elongation
> 
> A deficiency of any of the vitamins and mineral co-factors (vitamin B3, B6, C, Zinc and Magnesium) required by elongase and Delta-6-desaturase may inhibit conversion to EPA and DHA
> 
> *All true, none of which are reasons to use a different oil though - avoiding deficiencies in minerals/co-factors is common sense diet anyway, and boosting o3 content of diet sorts out point 1*
> 
> Loss of Delta-6 desaturates activity that occurs during normal aging
> 
> *Yes, everything slows down as you get old - not using an enzyme pathway by not using it's substrates isn't a good thing though...*
> 
> Certain health conditions such as diabetes and drugs, inhibits Delta - 6-saturase activity and prevents conversion to EPA and DHA
> 
> *Yes, though again ALA has uses! For people who do have a specific metabolic block, then yes, I would agree that a fish/marine oil will likely be of benefit*
> 
> Certain populations, such as North American natives, Inuit, Orientals, Norwegians, and Welsh-Irish may not effectively convert ALA to EPA in the body
> 
> *Yes, this is from their historical diet - they had/have easy access to marine oils, so have no need to convert ALA into them*
> 
> The use of ALA labeled with radioisotopes suggested that, with a background diet high in saturated fat, conversion to long-chain metabolites is 6% for EPA and 3.8% for DHA. With a diet rich in Omega 6 PUFA, conversion is reduced by 40% to 50%. It is thus reasonable to observe an Omega 6/Omega3 PUFA ratio not exceeding 4-6:1.
> 
> *
> Agree - as Udos has a 2:1 of omega 3:6, it can only improve the omega 3:6 ratio*
> 
> Some ALA can be inverted into our bodies to teh longer chain Omega 3's EPA and DHA. ALthough the scientific literature is mixed on this issue, humans may be unable to convert enough ALA to EPA and DHA to achieve optimal levels of these long-chain Omega 3's.
> 
> *Again, other uses*
> 
> So, again, much of the Omega 3's are not going to be able to be converted to EPA and DHA in Udo's oil.
> 
> Not to mention the fact that it already has Omega 6 fatty acids in it.
> 
> Now if the current rat of Omega 3 to Omega 6 is around 1/10 to 1/25 and the optimal range is 1/1 to 1/4, why add an Omega 6 to the oil when it already has too much in the diet anyway?
> 
> *See my point a little earlier. You can only IMPROVE the ratio. You also have to consider the amount of damage done to the typical omega 6 found in the diet, and you also have to follow through on the thinking that you are supposed to REMOVE crappy damaged oils from your diet, not just add in good ones.*
> 
> *
> *
> 
> *
> On the assumption that you have 20g of LA to 1g of ALA in your current diet, adding in 3g of fish oil will change your ratio from 20:1 to 5:1. Adding in 30ml of udos would bring in 13.5g of ALA and 5.9g of LA - totals now 14.5g ALA, 25.9g LA - ratio now 1:1.8 - so adding in omega 6 to the diet has IMPROVED your omega 3:6 ratio, because you're adding in that much more omega 3.*
> 
> Udo's = *Yes* :whistling:
> 
> Fish oils = *As required*
> 
> If you want to add Omaga 3's to your diet, just get fish oils, krill oil, or eat a diet high in fish that have alot of Omega 3's like salmon.
> 
> *ALA has benefits beyond EPA/DHA. I agree fully on the use of Krill oil if you are going to use a marine oil - it has such good antioxidant protection from the astaxanthin in it that it is very hard to damage during processing, something that cannot be said about the cheap fish oils that people use*


One of the things that makes me laugh about the conversion "issue" is this - if EPA/DHA were so important for day to day health, how come women are that much better at converting then men? (roughly 100% more efficient) Easy - women need to be able to grow a foetus in them. A foetus needs a lot of EPA/DHA for developing nervous tissue (brain, eyes, nerves, etc), so the mother is equipped with a system such that if food sources are poor come kid time, she can make do with what is around.

Also if conversion was so poor, then vegetarian/vegans would be blind, retarded, and sterile. Put simply, you make what EPA/DHA you need from the building blocks you give it. Give your body enough blocks, and you're bound to make all you need.

SD, regarding adding in omega 6, flax is 4:1 omega 3:6, so you're adding in omega 6 there mate...


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## hackskii

You have to remember here that you have a financial gain in this to defend Udo's oil, so much of what you write is defending your position due to said above in a scripted manor.

Sorry, but that happens to be the truth, you have to show some doubt otherwise you take a hit right in your pocket.

With that said, this is similar to defending vegetarian diets vs. those that eat meat for protein.

Sure you can get your protein from vegetable sources, but that is not as good, nor efficient.

Just like one eats meat for protein, Omega 3 is easiest and most efficient to come by fish sources, sure you can get it from nuts and seeds but the most efficient way would be to eat fish. Remember we are talking supplementation here, so eating fish would be the best bet, and then supplementation of fish oil would be next to get your Omega 3's.

Personally Udo's is more expensive than fish oils, Udo's profile in Omega 3's is not as good as fish oils, Udo's is more difficult to take, and personally I dont like the flavor of Udo's.

Why spend more for less?

In the end, you should eat fish, if you dont, then supplement with fish oils, use olive oil in your diet and eat some nuts and seeds, everything is covered here.

If you are eating nuts and seeds then you dont even need to supplement Udo's, much like if you eat fish you wont need to supplement with Fish oils.

This isnt rocket science here, Nice try Tony.

Advisory amounts?

How about protein?

40 grams is about it for advisory amounts, eating too much of that?....lol

In the end Udo's is the more expensive and less effiecient way of getting in your Omega 3's, I cant see a defense against this unless you like the taste, which I certainly dont.

Popping a couple of caps of fish oil is far easier too.


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## SD

This is a great little debate guys, really enjoying reading this thankyou :thumb: .

Its been a premise here for some time that when your diet is already rich in Omega 6, why add in more Omega 6 from a source such as Udo's when its Omega 3's that are required to address the balance.

Is that not the case in your eyes Tony? (genuine question mate)

SD


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## Tony Barnes

hackskii said:


> You have to remember here that you have a financial gain in this to defend Udo's oil, so much of what you write is defending your position due to said above in a scripted manor.
> 
> Sorry, but that happens to be the truth, you have to show some doubt otherwise you take a hit right in your pocket.
> 
> *I understand what you're saying here, but my word means more to me than my income! Believe me, I could be earning a boat load more than I do right now if belief in what I do wasn't important to me...*
> 
> With that said, this is similar to defending vegetarian diets vs. those that eat meat for protein.
> 
> Sure you can get your protein from vegetable sources, but that is not as good, nor efficient.
> 
> Just like one eats meat for protein, Omega 3 is easiest and most efficient to come by fish sources, sure you can get it from nuts and seeds but the most efficient way would be to eat fish. Remember we are talking supplementation here, so eating fish would be the best bet, and then supplementation of fish oil would be next to get your Omega 3's.
> 
> *Did you read what I wrote? Honestly?!? The 2 arguments bear very little resemblance at all. When talking about protein meat contains essential amino acids just like vegetables do. When talking about oils, fish/meat is a lousy source of essential fatty acids. Yes fish contains long chain derivatives, but as per my pretty detailed explanation, there are other benefits to be had from the short chain, essential, fatty acids. Also it is not supplementation, Udos is a food - would you call butter or olive oil a supplement? No. *
> 
> *
> *
> 
> *
> With regards to someone eating nuts/seeds - I am totally behind that. If someone comes to me asking how much Udos to have, and shows me a diet that has a load of flax and pumpkin seeds in it, I'll do the maths and see what they are getting - if that then means no Udos, then that's what I'll tell them! Most people don't want to eat loads of nuts/seeds a day, so this typically doesn't come up much. *
> 
> *
> *
> 
> *
> Again, regarding efficacy, the results we see from people adding these large amounts of oil into their diet are fabulous - we got into sports because sports people came to us, not the other way round. Udos was designed to rectify a dietary anomally in the west, and sort out heart/brain/etc health, it just happens to be ace for athletes.*
> 
> Personally Udo's is more expensive than fish oils, Udo's profile in Omega 3's is not as good as fish oils, Udo's is more difficult to take, and personally I dont like the flavor of Udo's.
> 
> Why spend more for less?
> 
> *More expensive - yes. You are comparing a very carfeully made product to the waste by products of another industry - very few fish oils are made from fish caught for that purpose, the ones that are carry a hefty premium.*
> 
> *
> *
> 
> *
> It is not difficult to take, we have a website full of recipes. 95%+ of folk on here will use protein shakes, how hard is it to add oil to a shake before shaking? Flavour, that's personal, personally I don't like how fish oil tastes, or the fishy burps that they give you, but that's me.*
> 
> *
> *
> 
> *
> Again, the profile is different, works as a base for your fatty acid intake, rather than a little bit on the side to try and sort things out.*
> 
> In the end, you should eat fish, if you dont, then supplement with fish oils, use olive oil in your diet and eat some nuts and seeds, everything is covered here.
> 
> *Agree with the seeds & nuts bit, olive oil is fine for cooking, but doesn't provide ALA to an appreciable degree (hence it is fine for cooking, as if it was a good source, it wouldn't be any good to cook with!)*
> 
> If you are eating nuts and seeds then you dont even need to supplement Udo's, much like if you eat fish you wont need to supplement with Fish oils.
> 
> *As per a few bits above - if you are getting the right amounts of oils in a decent ratio into you diet from seeds/nuts, then alls gravy. However, who does?!?*
> 
> This isnt rocket science here, Nice try Tony.
> 
> *No, it's fat science* :laugh:
> 
> Advisory amounts?
> 
> How about protein?
> 
> 40 grams is about it for advisory amounts, eating too much of that?....lol
> 
> *I don't understand this, sorry*
> 
> In the end Udo's is the more expensive and less effiecient way of getting in your Omega 3's, I cant see a defense against this unless you like the taste, which I certainly dont.
> 
> Popping a couple of caps of fish oil is far easier too.
> 
> *
> As per above mate - "popping a couple of caps" is not an effective way to sort out your fatty acid intake. Where is the rest of your fat coming from? What degree of damage does it have? By sorting out your diet and removing as many damaged fat sources as possible, you suddenly find you've got a fairly low fat diet that you can then create a good undamaged fat base for using something like udos. Adding a coupe of grammes of oils isn't going to dent the 50-100g+ found elsewhere in the diet.*


Do you mind posting up your diet so I can run it through a calc and see what your fatty acid intake is like? Also on that front, have you ever used Udos, in the right amounts, for any period of time? We were literally rushed off our feet at the bodypower expo last weekend, I needed to do a 240 mile round trip to restock - consistently having folk coming up to the stand telling us how great the product was.

As per earlier, I am not just in this for the money (but thanks for the insinuation - I was being as transparent as possible in my first post for those who don't know me). I wouldn't exactly spend time at home on forums helping people out if I was, getting earache of the other half to put my computer away (lol, bad example as I'm currently at work, but I do!)


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## Tony Barnes

SD said:


> This is a great little debate guys, really enjoying reading this thankyou :thumb: .
> 
> Its been a premise here for some time that when your diet is already rich in Omega 6, why add in more Omega 6 from a source such as Udo's when its Omega 3's that are required to address the balance.
> 
> Is that not the case in your eyes Tony? (genuine question mate)
> 
> SD


Remove cheap cooking oils from your diet and you remove the majority of it. Also since Udos is 2:1 of 3:6, adding it into your diet can only improve the ratio. Omega 6 has plenty of health benefits of it's own - GLA comes from LA, and in turn converts to DGLA - the source of series 1 prostaglandins, the most anti-inflammatory out of the group.

From there it makes AA - if AA is release from the membranes, then it can be used for series 2 prostaglandins, which by and large are inflammatory - this needs regulating, which is is via enzyme competition with ETA from the omega 3 side of things, that relied on having ALA in the diet. EPA mainly works to prevent AA release from membranes - this is how fish oils exert an anti-inflammatory effect - prevent inflammation effects, rather than create anti-inflmmatory effects. As you will get EPA from ALA conversion, you will get both sides of the inflammation puzzle.


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## SD

Hey Tony,

This is a good debate and Scott (Hacks) has been a huge wealth of knowledge and information for us, giving a lot of his time for free so please keep the discussion friendly I hate taking sides ha ha :laugh:

So fellow food scientists can I put my EFA intake here, I would genuinely like your input on it Tony.

Morning

Smoothie with:

Blueberries

Banana

15g Psyllium

*15g Flax Seed*

2 tsp Wheatgrass Powder

Supplement of *2 fish oil caps*

Mid morning

*10g Almonds*

*10g Walnuts*

20g Dried fruit & 50g Jerky

Lunch

250g meat Beef/Tuna/Chicken or Salmon

200g veg

*1 tbsp Omega mix oil from My Protein or Udos (if can afford) or Organic Olive Oil or Walnut Oil*

Mid afternoon

*10g Almonds*

*10g Walnuts*

20g Dried fruit

Protein Shake (30g protein)

Dinner

Same as Lunch

+ *2 fish oil caps*

Late evening

Protein Pudding:

2 scoops protein

*1 tbsp Coconut Oil*

Psyllium to thicken

Thanks for your input on the EFA's :thumbup1:

SD


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## Ken Hutchinson

I would just like to say i did buy a bottle of udos choice, and add 100ml to my shakes cant even taste it, so it's a big thumbs up from me. :thumb: :thumb : :thumb:


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## SD

Ken Hutchinson said:


> I would just like to say i did buy a bottle of udos choice, and add 100ml to my shakes cant even taste it, so it's a big thumbs up from me. :thumb: :thumb : :thumb:


Can't taste 100ml???? Your taste buds are dead my friend, Udo's has a distinctively nutty and creamy taste in a shake, I pity you if you can't taste it, its lush! and 100ml??? Are you a millionaire?

SD


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## Tony Barnes

Right, this is going to be roughly what's going on for you mate:










I've used 15ml udos in both the meals where you gave options, and salmon oil for your fish oils - this is going to be ballpark for normal fish oils (never spotted the DB doesn't have them in, I'll have to add in some values)

That's pretty much spot on mate, nothing I'd change about it. On the days where you use walnut oil instead of udos/other blend, you will get a 1:2.9 for 3:6, when you use olive oil it will be 1:2.2 - though your total 3 & 6 intake would be lower than I'd aim for to get best results, the balance is pretty good, good choices of food in there.


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## Tony Barnes

SD said:


> Can't taste 100ml???? Your taste buds are dead my friend, Udo's has a distinctively nutty and creamy taste in a shake, I pity you if you can't taste it, its lush! and 100ml??? Are you a millionaire?
> 
> SD


I use 50ml in my morning one - wouldn't say I taste the nutty aspect, but it makes it creamy as bejesus :laugh:


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## SD

Tony Barnes said:


> Right, this is going to be roughly what's going on for you mate:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I've used 15ml udos in both the meals where you gave options, and salmon oil for your fish oils - this is going to be ballpark for normal fish oils (never spotted the DB doesn't have them in, I'll have to add in some values)
> 
> That's pretty much spot on mate, nothing I'd change about it. On the days where you use walnut oil instead of udos/other blend, you will get a 1:2.9 for 3:6, when you use olive oil it will be 1:2.2 - though your total 3 & 6 intake would be lower than I'd aim for to get best results, the balance is pretty good, good choices of food in there.


Thanks for working those out for me mate, its reassuring to know I am on the right track.

This is a maintenance level diet for me, I will increase quantities of all of the above for bulking so will more than likely hit your quantity target you mentioned.



Tony Barnes said:


> I use 50ml in my morning one - wouldn't say I taste the nutty aspect, but it makes it creamy as bejesus :laugh:


It doesn't taste nutty to you? I love it!

SD


----------



## Tony Barnes

No worries - I keep meaning to launch that calculator properly (lol, took me long enough to put it together!) - but the database is american, and so very americanised, needs some work for the UK.

No, it really doesn't! I reckon it may in chocolate flavour things? Dunno. I have banana protein at the minute, works well, previously vanilla which I eventually got bored with.


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## SD

COuld you tell me how much more PUFA 3&6 would be optimal Tony? I guess, maintaining the ratios I have now, would you say adding another tbsp of Udos would do it?

What do you think of My proteins Oil Blend? Fats quality wise.

MegaOmega is an organic blend of cold pressed Essential Fatty Acids (EFAs) sourced from Flax, Hemp, Pumpkin, Olive and Evening Primrose Oils. These high quality sources provide high levels of the essential fatty acids Omega 3, 6 & 9. Omega 3, 6 & 9 are important for overall health and wellbeing whilst specifically supporting the maintenance of normal heart, brain and joint function.

*Ingredients*

Organic Flax Oil, Organic Hemp Oil, Organic Pumpkin Oil, Organic Olive Oil, Organic Evening Primrose Oil

*Nutritional Information*

Amount Per Serving:

Alpha Linolenic Acid (Omega 3): 2.5g (2,500mg)

Linoleic Acid (Omega 6): 1g (1,000mg)

Oleic Acid (Omega 9): 950mg

Ooop Serving size is 5ml btw

SD


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## Tony Barnes

Given you're getting a decent amount of oils from undamaged nuts, 2 tbsp a day will likely suit you fine. If you drop back on the nuts, then yes, would add in another spoon to replace.

The MP blend - oil choices are good, and it comes out with a nice ratio. From a comparison point of view, it doesn't have soya lecithin (membrane health), coconut oil (MCTs/immune health), or the oat/rice oils (antioxidants and phytosterols) that are in Udos.

The serving size is a fallacy though - 5ml a day simply is not optimum unless you've already got a diet chock full of nuts/seeds! I've seen this on a lot of oils, and people think "oh, I only need 5ml of this oil, but 30ml of that one" - ignoring the fact that as an oil there isn't going to be a way of making it more concentrated and coming out with the same FA ratios..!

I've never tasted it - how is it? There is no mention of pressing technique, nor storage, etc, so I can't comment on that.


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## Ken Hutchinson

SD said:


> Can't taste 100ml???? Your taste buds are dead my friend, Udo's has a distinctively nutty and creamy taste in a shake, I pity you if you can't taste it, its lush! and 100ml??? Are you a millionaire?
> 
> SD


Oops should of read 10ml lol.


----------



## SD

Tony Barnes said:


> Given you're getting a decent amount of oils from undamaged nuts, 2 tbsp a day will likely suit you fine. If you drop back on the nuts, then yes, would add in another spoon to replace.
> 
> Thanks for that :thumbup1: will up it when mass building in the future, but in proportion calorie and omega ratio wise then.
> 
> The MP blend - oil choices are good, and it comes out with a nice ratio. From a comparison point of view, it doesn't have *soya lecithin (membrane health), coconut oil (MCTs/immune health), or the oat/rice oils (antioxidants and phytosterols)* that are in Udos.
> 
> Ah didn't realise it had these hidden benefits, interesting! Supplement Coconut oil anyway so not a huge loss if I stick with MP.
> 
> The serving size is a fallacy though - 5ml a day simply is not optimum unless you've already got a diet chock full of nuts/seeds! I've seen this on a lot of oils, and people think "oh, I only need 5ml of this oil, but 30ml of that one" - ignoring the fact that as an oil there isn't going to be a way of making it more concentrated and coming out with the same FA ratios..!
> 
> Yes agree, MP is a fitness oriented manufacturer, they recommend 5ml 3xper day so as not to scar fat phobes I think lol.
> 
> I've never tasted it - how is it? There is no mention of pressing technique, nor storage, etc, so I can't comment on that.


It says 'Cold Pressed' and they have been an honest manufacturer so far. The bottle is dark and recommends being kept in the fridge, its plastic tho not glass like Udo's.

The taste is dominated by the flax unfortunately so isn't a patch on Udo's straight off the spoon but in a shake its no different.

For salad dressings or straight from the spoon, I have used Udo's, for shakes or just adding to cooked meals (after cooking) to add EFA's, I have used MP oil as taste was hidden. I keep both in the fridge.

MP's omega oil is only £12.95 per 500ml too :thumbup1: , if anyone can match that with UDO's I would be a regular customer!!



Ken Hutchinson said:


> Oops should of read 10ml lol.


Thought so fella lol

SD


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## Tony Barnes

Nicely, the oils should be in an ok way then. Plastic isn't ideal (as even water will leach crap from plastic, oils do a heck of a better job of it), but dark is better than clear at least.

Well £12.95 isn't a million miles of what you can find Udos for, discount supps have it on for £14.95 at the minute

Glad ours tastes better


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## true

myprotein told me they keep it in a warehouse. Is your oil refridgerated before selling tony? would this make a big difference as im sure alot of your distributors wouldnt bother.


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## Tony Barnes

Yes we keep it chilled (it's actually stored frozen until we bring it into out refrigerator in the warehouse), and we require that shops/etc that we deal with refrigerate also.

It's not refrigerated during shipping (in the UK that is, it comes over in a refrigerated container) - but the key is being kept chilled for the bulk of it's life. The odd day here and there is fine.


----------



## hackskii

I found this by accident trying to look up supplement testing for protein.

Didnt want to stir the pot here, but felt compelled to put what a doctor suggests between flax vs fish:

*A physician comments on the fish oil-flax seed oil debate *

Epidemiologic evidence has pointed to the cardiovascular benefits of fish and fish oil for a very long time [1], gaining momentum in the 1970s with the observation that Greenland Inuits, with a very high omega-3 intake and very high fat diets had a very low risk of cardiovascular disease, but it was not until the large and well-conducted Italian GISSI Prevenzione [2] trial in 1999 which showed that a very modest 1gm supplementation of EPA & DHA significantly reduced mortality in post-heart attack patients that the medical establishment took widespread notice of fish oil.

As far as I know, there is no similar evidence base in favor of flax seed oil. Therefore, I would have a hard time saying that flax seed has nearly as much to offer as fish oil. We can extrapolate and theorize that flax seed oil should confer a similar benefit, based on its (much lower) omega-3 content, enough to recommend it as an alternative to fish oil for strict vegans, but I would call it clearly second best.

The reference to fish oil lowering von Willebrand factor [vWF] is probably correct, based on the 1987 study at Brown [3] which showed that vWF was significantly lowered by fish oil in type-1 diabetics, who as a group are at increased risk for stroke and heart attack, possibly because of increased vWF, which is known to be increased in first-time ischemic stroke victims, regardless of diabetes, and is a marker of endothelial stress. Perhaps more significantly, triglycerides, which are associated with cardiovascular disease, and which are notoriously elevated in type-2 diabetics, are lowered by fish oil. (This is the only FDA-approved indication for fish-oil, in the form of the eight to ten times more expensive prescription extract Omacor, for treating severe hypertriglyceridemia.)

While bleeding times are slightly increased and platelet activity is decreased by fish oil, there are no demonstrated adverse health outcomes linked to this bleeding. A much more potent anti-platelet drug, low-dose aspirin, increases bleeding much more, but is taken by millions of people with an elevated risk of cardiovascular disease because it is proven to significantly lower overall risk, including that associated with bleeding.

Dr. Peter Everett is a founder of the Dietary Supplement Quality Initiative, sponsor of supplementquality.com

References:

1. Kromhout D, Bosschieter EB, de Lezenne Coulander C. The inverse relation between fish consumption and 20-year mortality from coronary heart disease. N Engl J Med, 1985 May 9;312(19):1205-9.

2. Gruppo Italiano per lo Studio della Sopravvivenza nell'Infarto miocardico. Dietary supplementation with n-3 polyunsaturated fatty acids and vitamin E after myocardial infarction: results of the GISSI-Prevenzione trial. Lancet, 1999 Aug 7;354(9177):447-55.

3. Miller ME, Anagnostou AA, Ley B, Marshall P, Steiner M. Effect of fish oil concentrates on hemorheological and hemostatic aspects of diabetes mellitus: a preliminary study. Thromb Res, 1987 Jul 15;47(2):201-14.


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## Tony Barnes

hackskii said:


> Didnt want to stir the pot here, but felt compelled to put what a doctor suggests between flax vs fish:


Don't worry I know you're not stirring mate, whole point of forum is to debate this stuff.



> As far as I know, there is no similar evidence base in favor of flax seed oil. Therefore, I would have a hard time saying that flax seed has nearly as much to offer as fish oil. We can extrapolate and theorize that flax seed oil should confer a similar benefit, *based on its (much lower) omega-3 content*, enough to recommend it as an alternative to fish oil for strict vegans, but I would call it clearly second best.


Right off the bat this is daft - flax oil has lower omega 3 content than fish oil? (I've put in a few fish oil sources)



Code:


OIL<link rel="File-List" href="file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5CTony%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmsohtml1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml"><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>  <w:WordDocument>   <w:View>Normal</w:View>   <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom>   <w:Compatibility>    <w:BreakWrappedTables/>    <w:SnapToGridInCell/>    <w:WrapTextWithPunct/>    <w:UseAsianBreakRules/>   </w:Compatibility>   <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel>  </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><style> <!--  /* Style Definitions */  p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal     {mso-style-parent:"";     [URL=margin:0cm]margin:0cm[/URL];     [URL=margin-bottom:.0001pt]margin-bottom:.0001pt[/URL];     [URL=mso-pagination:widow-orphan]mso-pagination:widow-orphan[/URL];     [URL=font-size:12.0pt]font-size:12.0pt[/URL];     font-family:"Times New Roman";     mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";} @page Section1     {size:612.0pt 792.0pt;     [URL=margin:72.0pt]margin:72.0pt[/URL] 90.0pt 72.0pt 90.0pt;     [URL=mso-header-margin:35.4pt]mso-header-margin:35.4pt[/URL];     [URL=mso-footer-margin:35.4pt]mso-footer-margin:35.4pt[/URL];     [URL=mso-paper-source:0]mso-paper-source:0[/URL];} div.Section1     {page:Section1;} --> </style><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style>  /* Style Definitions */  table.MsoNormalTable     {mso-style-name:"Table Normal";     [URL=mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0]mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0[/URL];     [URL=mso-tstyle-colband-size:0]mso-tstyle-colband-size:0[/URL];     [URL=mso-style-noshow:yes]mso-style-noshow:yes[/URL];     mso-style-parent:"";     [URL=mso-padding-alt:0cm]mso-padding-alt:0cm[/URL] 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt;     [URL=mso-para-margin:0cm]mso-para-margin:0cm[/URL];     [URL=mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt]mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt[/URL];     [URL=mso-pagination:widow-orphan]mso-pagination:widow-orphan[/URL];     [URL=font-size:10.0pt]font-size:10.0pt[/URL];     font-family:"Times New Roman";} </style> <![endif]-->          ALA           EPA           DHA          LA         Monos       Sats

Flax         53.3          0             0            12.7       20.2        9.4

Herring      0.8           6.3           4.2          1.1        56.6        21.3

Cod Liver    0.9           6.9           11           0.9        46.7        26.2

Salmon       1.1           13            18.2         1.5        29          19.9

Sardine      1.3           10.1          10.7         2          33.8        29.9

So flax actually has more than double the omega 3 content of any of these fish. It's notable that fish oils are actually better for monos and sats than they are for omega 3.

Here are some studies that show plant omega 3 to be of benefit:



> WHO 2003. Diet, nutrition and the prevention of chronic diseases. Report of a Joint WHO/FAO expert consultation Geneva, World Health Organization, 28 January - 1 February 2002[Public Health Nutrition, Volume 7(1A), February 2004. Special issue - Diet, nutrition and the prevention of chronic diseases:scientific background papers of the joint WHO/FAO expert consultation ]
> 
> Institute of Medicine Dietary Reference Intakes Energy, Carbohydrate, Fiber, Fat, Fatty Acids, Cholesterol, Protein, and Amino Acids (Macronutrients) Washington D.C. National Academy 2005.
> 
> http://books.nap.edu/openbook.php?isbn=030908537
> 
> Authoritative/Scientific Bodies
> 
> - EFSA 2005. Opinion of the Scientific Panel on Dietetic Products, Nutrition and Allergies on a request from the Commission related to
> 
> nutrition claims concerning omega-3 fatty acids, monounsaturated fat, polyunsaturated fat and unsaturated fat Request N° EFSA-Q-
> 
> 2004-107)(adopted on 6 July 2005)
> 
> - FDA. FDA USA Authoritative Statement on MUFA from olive oil and CHD.
> 
> Meta-Analysis
> 
> - Mensink RP et al., Effects of dietary fatty acids and carbohydrates on the ratio of serum total to HDL cholesterol and on serum lipids and apolipoproteins: a meta-analysis of 60 controlled trials. Am J Clin Nutr. 2003;77:1146-55.
> 
> - Brouwer IA, Katan MB, Zock PL. Dietary alpha-linolenic acid is associated with reduced risk of fatal coronary heart disease, but increased prostate cancer risk: a meta-analysis. J Nutr. 004;134:919-22.
> 
> Reviews
> 
> - De Lorgeril M, Salen P. Dietary prevention of coronary heart disease: the Lyon diet heart study and after.World Rev Nutr Diet. 005;95:103-14. Review.
> 
> - British Nutrition Foundation 2005. Stanner S (ed) Cardiovascular Diease: Diet, Nutrition and Emerging Risk Factors Individual Studies
> 
> - Finnegan YE, Minihane AM, Leigh-Firbank EC et al. Plant- and marine-derived polyunsaturated fatty acids have differential effects on fasting and postprandial blood lipid concentrations and on the susceptibility of LDL to oxidative modification in moderately hyperlipidemic subjects. Am J Clin Nutr 2003;77:783-95.
> 
> - Petra L. L. Goyens and Ronald P.Mensink The Dietary alpha-Linolenic Acid to Linoleic Acid Ratio Does Not Affect the Serum Lipoprotein Profile in Humans.J. Nutr. 135:2799-2804, 2005
> 
> WHO 2003. Diet, nutrition and the prevention of chronic diseases. Report of a Joint WHO/FAO expert consultation Geneva, World Health
> 
> Organization, 28 January - 1 February 2002 [Public Health Nutrition, Volume 7(1A), February 2004. Special issue - Diet, nutrition
> 
> and the prevention of chronic diseases: scientific background papers of the joint WHO/FAO expert consultation ]
> 
> Institute of Medicine Dietary Reference Intakes Energy, Carbohydrate, Fiber, Fat, Fatty Acids, Cholesterol, Protein, and Amino Acids
> 
> (Macronutrients) Washington D.C. National Academy 2005.
> 
> http://books.nap.edu/openbook.php?isbn=030908537


Etc, etc.

This is a list from EFSA (european food safety authority) which has been processing claims that can be attributed to various foods. They have employed "gold standards" (i.e. same sort of standards proof that pharma companies are expected to drum up) and are rejecting claims left right and centre for lots and lots of food supplements.

For ALA they have cleared: Blood cholesterol, Artery/heart health, brain development, cell regulation through prostaglandins/leucotrines, growth and development and maintenance.

For LA, also from seed oil: Artery/heary health, growth and development and maintenance, brain development, blood cholesterol, cell regulation through prostaglandins/leucotrines.

For EFAs as a group: digestive tract function

For omega 3 as a group: anti-anginogenic, brain development, eye health, immune function, CV function

For omega 6 as a group: tear production, normal skin, CNS function

So even though he has not heard of anything, there is plenty out there (I'm currently reading through 39 shorlisted abstracts on sports related research for a study we are planning)

With regard to "a physician comment" - that's akin to Dr Hilary Jones saying something. He simply isn't qualified....


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## hackskii

I just copied and pasted the article.

I know pretty much the last people I want information on diets is physicians, my doctor told me to lower the fats in my diet, eat more breads and cerials, and less protein.

That fired up a huge debate with him and in the end, I realized he was totally clueless and totally over weight, obese actually:lol:

I didnt want to go into the wheat glutin thing with him.

Question though Tony, if we need ALA in our diets and some of the ALA gets converted to DHA and EPA, if the body is prioritizing ALA would not the DHA and EPA get compromised?

One last question, you recommend taking Vitamin E with fish oils, is this due to increased LDL oxidative susceptibility when taking fish oils alone?

Do you have any information on this as well?


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## Tony Barnes

lol, yes, it's hard to take dietary advice from people who clearly don't use it themselves!

With regards to prioritisation, the feedback loop is at the top end - so you convert to EPA/DHA as required, and use the shorter/less unsaturated metabolites elsewhere. On the assumption that you get a decent ALA intake, you will never be left "wanting" for any of the omega 3s, and your body can do as it chooses with them.

The vitamin E is actually in there to protect the oils from degrading, rather than for the benefit to the user. Yes - the idea is to reduce free radical damage from occuring within the oils (the carbon double bonds basically leave things open to attack), as this in turn will impose oxidative stress in the end user. This can impart towards damaged cholesterol, but that's just part of the problem - blood vessel /DNA damage being others.

This seems to be a reasonably well written link - http://www.news-medical.net/news/2004/08/09/3922.aspx

The issue with fish oils are you get what you pay for. Pay top dollar for molecular distilled, caught for purpose oils, and you will get nice, undamaged oils.

Pay a pittence for some pile it high crap, that is merely the by product of another industry, and you will get crappy, damaged oils. Adding a damaged oil into the diet is IMO not a great way to go when it is supposed to be healthy...!

Krill oil is my top recc from the fish oil brigade for those who need it for this reason, the astaxanthin content is sufficient to kep it stable when boiling! Very impressive stuff.


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## hackskii

Thanks for the info Tony and thanks for the link.

Not sure what you are saying but lets double check.

Are you saying the cheap lesser EPA and DHA fish oils are better or worse than the higher concintration stuff?


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## Tony Barnes

As a general rule, the cheaper the product, the more inferior it will be. There are going to be some exceptions - i.e. route to market has less "steps" involved, or vendor chooses to have lower margins than competitors - but as a rule the stack 'em high, sell 'em cheap ones are going to have been subjected to the worst treatment.

If you compare Udo's to cooking oil - ignoring costs of organic vs none for ingredients - even though Udos is just pressed and bottled (cheap you'd think!), vegetable oils go through about half a dozen processes before they end up as the end product. This is because the emphasis is getting the oil out of the seed quickly - this is the main cost saving. In doing so they kick the crap out of it, then have to refine it so that it doesn't taste as rank as it is.

With fish oils you're looking at the difference between high temperature steam distillation, and fancier techniques like molecular distillation that are much kinder to the oils.

Basically in the extracted PUFA market, you get what you pay for


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## thedonker

go read and re read fats that heal fats that kill, and you might change your mind, frankly I don;t want to even get into this, but reading that book will enlighten you



hackskii said:


> I found this by accident trying to look up supplement testing for protein.
> 
> Didnt want to stir the pot here, but felt compelled to put what a doctor suggests between flax vs fish:
> 
> *A physician comments on the fish oil-flax seed oil debate *
> 
> Epidemiologic evidence has pointed to the cardiovascular benefits of fish and fish oil for a very long time [1], gaining momentum in the 1970s with the observation that Greenland Inuits, with a very high omega-3 intake and very high fat diets had a very low risk of cardiovascular disease, but it was not until the large and well-conducted Italian GISSI Prevenzione [2] trial in 1999 which showed that a very modest 1gm supplementation of EPA & DHA significantly reduced mortality in post-heart attack patients that the medical establishment took widespread notice of fish oil.
> 
> As far as I know, there is no similar evidence base in favor of flax seed oil. Therefore, I would have a hard time saying that flax seed has nearly as much to offer as fish oil. We can extrapolate and theorize that flax seed oil should confer a similar benefit, based on its (much lower) omega-3 content, enough to recommend it as an alternative to fish oil for strict vegans, but I would call it clearly second best.
> 
> The reference to fish oil lowering von Willebrand factor [vWF] is probably correct, based on the 1987 study at Brown [3] which showed that vWF was significantly lowered by fish oil in type-1 diabetics, who as a group are at increased risk for stroke and heart attack, possibly because of increased vWF, which is known to be increased in first-time ischemic stroke victims, regardless of diabetes, and is a marker of endothelial stress. Perhaps more significantly, triglycerides, which are associated with cardiovascular disease, and which are notoriously elevated in type-2 diabetics, are lowered by fish oil. (This is the only FDA-approved indication for fish-oil, in the form of the eight to ten times more expensive prescription extract Omacor, for treating severe hypertriglyceridemia.)
> 
> While bleeding times are slightly increased and platelet activity is decreased by fish oil, there are no demonstrated adverse health outcomes linked to this bleeding. A much more potent anti-platelet drug, low-dose aspirin, increases bleeding much more, but is taken by millions of people with an elevated risk of cardiovascular disease because it is proven to significantly lower overall risk, including that associated with bleeding.
> 
> Dr. Peter Everett is a founder of the Dietary Supplement Quality Initiative, sponsor of supplementquality.com
> 
> References:
> 
> 1. Kromhout D, Bosschieter EB, de Lezenne Coulander C. The inverse relation between fish consumption and 20-year mortality from coronary heart disease. N Engl J Med, 1985 May 9;312(19):1205-9.
> 
> 2. Gruppo Italiano per lo Studio della Sopravvivenza nell'Infarto miocardico. Dietary supplementation with n-3 polyunsaturated fatty acids and vitamin E after myocardial infarction: results of the GISSI-Prevenzione trial. Lancet, 1999 Aug 7;354(9177):447-55.
> 
> 3. Miller ME, Anagnostou AA, Ley B, Marshall P, Steiner M. Effect of fish oil concentrates on hemorheological and hemostatic aspects of diabetes mellitus: a preliminary study. Thromb Res, 1987 Jul 15;47(2):201-14.


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## thedonker

in fact if you didn;t live in the us i would send you my copy, it is the best text on fats ever written and it is very easy to understand. Yes I do know it is written by UDO himself, but his UDO's choice company was set up as a result of his research, for like minded individuals. I used to have a dvd with udo discussing this topic exactly and in detail, if it turns up I'll post it on here.


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## Tony Barnes

I'll check with the manufacturers, but I should be able to dump that DVD up to Youtube - something I'd been meaning to do for a while anyway!


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## hackskii

Or rapidshare?


----------



## stl

> I'll check with the manufacturers, but I should be able to dump that DVD up to Youtube - something I'd been meaning to do for a while anyway!


That would be great if you could - interesting topic (for me anyway)


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## Tony Barnes

Uurgh, hate rapidshare, so isn't ever rapid for me!!

I'll get on with uploading it, and just post the URL once I get the ok. Like I said should be fine as I just burn off DVD copies here, but there may be some international copyright situation, not sure.


----------



## Noswal

Tony Barnes said:


> Uurgh, hate rapidshare, so isn't ever rapid for me!!
> 
> I'll get on with uploading it, and just post the URL once I get the ok. Like I said should be fine as I just burn off DVD copies here, but there may be some international copyright situation, not sure.


Tony, did you ever get the vid posted on YouTube?. I have just started taking Udo's-before I joined UK-Muscle!, on reccomendation from Elf Foods in Loughborough.


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## mootonandy

I know it's good for you but I find it really disgusting when it's sliding down your throat and I don't like the taste either.


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## &lt;JAY_JAY&gt;

Nice read


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## standardflexer

How many ml are people having of udo's oil per day?


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## rick2quick

Awesome product. You need that amount for it to take effect. Capsules are pants. It cleared up my dry skin. Udos all the way, just wish it was cheaper.


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## BabyYoYo

Bumping this thread...

Am debating on whether to get Udo's or go with MP's omega mix Oil and supplement with coconut oil also?! Would probably work out more expensive this way... Decision made I think :thumb:

I read somewhere that a 5ml dose per 25kg's of bodyweight is sensible? So for me approximately 2-2.5 tbsp per day at 60kgs... Seems easy enough.


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## Thunderstruck

BabyYoYo said:


> Bumping this thread...
> 
> Am debating on whether to get Udo's or go with MP's omega mix Oil and supplement with coconut oil also?! Would probably work out more expensive this way... Decision made I think :thumb:
> 
> I read somewhere that a 5ml dose per 25kg's of bodyweight is sensible? So for me approximately 2-2.5 tbsp per day at 60kgs... Seems easy enough.


Good god almighty havent seen you on here for aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaages.


----------

