# Liver tablets, are they anabolic?



## hackskii

There is no mystery that old timer bodybuilders used to take beef liver tablets.

Why did they do this?

They were a good source of protein.

Beef liver It is a very rich source of B vitamins, especially riboflavin, niacin, B-12, and the lipotropics choline and inositol it contains phosphorous, copper, zinc, chromium.

Also, liver has long been known to have a good source of iron in it.

In fact when I was growing up doctors used to tell anemic people to eat liver to help with iron poor blood, liver is a natural source of iron, also liver contains folic acid, which is good for lowering homocysteine which is a major factor in congestive heart failure.

Your muscles contain myoglobin, an oxygen carrying protein that works inside the cells. Like hemoglobin, myoglobin also requires iron to bind oxygen. Without the iron, the whole oxygen transport system simply won't work. It is well established that iron deficiency decreases work output and athletic performance.

In addition to these known nutrients, there are substances present in liver shown to have a beneficial effect on health, fitness, and endurance such as cytochrome P-450 and others yet to be identified.

According to Vince Gironda, the "Iron Guru", desiccated liver contains nucleic acids for proper amino acid utilization, a growth factor and an anti-estrogen factor, which keeps testosterone levels high, and it is also a great anti-toxin.

Desiccated liver helps to increase red blood cell count and stimulate appetite. Anabolic steroids also stimulate appetite and increase red blood cell count.

Highest protein source is in organ meats.

Some feel that liver has a anabolic effect if taken in large amounts.

I don't think there is any study supporting this but I can see how this could be possible.

The liver contains all kindof growth hormone factors, makes cholesterol is a vital component of most, if not all cells in the body, and is critical for immune function. Cholesterol is the *mother steroid* in the body, from which many of our hormones are synthesized, estrogen, testosterone, progesterone, etc), converts T4 to T3, etc.

Several years ago, in order to demonstrate the capabilities of liver in the arena of boosting strength and endurance, Dr. B. H. Ershoff conducted a rather interesting experiment. The following is what occurred:

Dr. Ershoff took three groups of rats, and fed them controlled diets for a twelve week period of time. Group one ate a basic diet fortified with vitamins and minerals. Group two ate as much as they wanted of the same diet plus extra B-vitamins and brewer's yeast. The B-vitamins and yeast were added to the group two diet because of livers high B-vitamin content and the close proximity of brewers yeast to liver's nutrient content. Group three at the same basic diet but were supplemented with desiccated beef liver.

At the end of the twelve weeks of controlled nutrition, the rats were systematically placed in a drum of water. They couldn't climb out, so it was either swim or drown. The group one rats swam an average of 13.2 minutes before they drowned. Group two, an average of 13.4 minutes. Group three however were still swimming at the end of two hours! The experiment was concluded at that time.

I feel that for the price and nutritional benefit, they are a good selection for supplementation.

Are they anabolic?

Try 100 a day and let me know


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## Deano1

interestin hacks

I will be givin then ago soon out of interest


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## the_gre8t_1ne

Hmmmm i may have to try some!


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## Stu

hackskii said:


> At the end of the twelve weeks of controlled nutrition, the rats were systematically placed in a drum of water. They couldn't climb out, so it was either swim or drown. The group one rats swam an average of 13.2 minutes before they drowned. Group two, an average of 13.4 minutes. Group three however were still swimming at the end of two hours! The experiment was concluded at that time.


In conclusion beef liver tablets help rats swim for longer

i cant understand why they didnt do the test with humans?


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## hackskii

Stu said:


> In conclusion beef liver tablets help rats swim for longer
> 
> i cant understand why they didnt do the test with humans?


Just thought I would post that for the hell of it.

Liver - largest glandular organ of the body, weighing about 3 lb (1.36 kg).

It does so much that I can see how some would think supplementing this glandular would be important, especially when on a cycle or just trying to maintain a positive nitrogen ballance.


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## Stu

it was a good read, im just always dubious when they use rats and mice as test subjects


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## winger

Stu said:


> it was a good read, im just always dubious when they use rats and mice as test subjects


Cause it would take years to do on humans.

I love old school stuff.


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## hackskii

winger said:


> I love old school stuff.


*Cuz U R!* :blowme:


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## Cookie

> Are they anabolic?
> 
> Try 100 a day and let me know


I wouldnt advice people to start with 100 you`ll make yourself rather ill if you do,better to go with 10.

I`ve had 6 today and my energy has gone up leaps and bounds.



> i cant understand why they didnt do the test with humans?


Medical ethics,you cant have humans swimming till they drown,but there was some test done on humans and livers use in endurance events,cycling,marathons etc and the results showed big improvements overall.



> especially when on a cycle


would be pointless using on a cycle due to the large amounts of p450 that are produced as p450`s main purpose is to help the liver breakdown and destroy foreign bodies in the body so there is a good chance that the gear would be made weaker and not work as effectively.


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## hackskii

So cookie, eating the liver tabs will help in production of Cytochrome p450 and give the liver support?


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## hackskii

Just found this

P450 Metabolism

Managing Drug Interactions

Today, there are several updated p450 pharmacology charts on the Internet to help health providers assess potential drug interactions. The following chart tells you what p450 liver pathway is used by a given drug. If two drugs use the same pathway, they could affect one another. In general, a P450 substrate is any drug that uses the cytochrome p450 enzyme pathway. P450 inhibitors (INH) generally increase concentrations of other drugs. P450 inducers (IND) generally decrease concentrations of other drugs. P450 enzymes are classified using Roman numerals and letters. Almost half of all human drugs use p450 3A4; another 30 percent use p450 2D6.

Explanation of Table:

P450 substrate (S) is any drug that uses the Cytochrome p450 enzyme pathway.

P450 inhibitors (INH) generally increase concentrations of other drugs.

P450 inducers (IND) generally decrease concentrations of other drugs.

Some HIV drugs are both inducers and inhibitors.

Marijuana/Marinol: Uses p450 3A4, 2C9, 2C6 liver pathways. Specific interactions unknown.

Cocaine: Uses p450 liver pathways: Minor 2D6 inhibitor, 3A4 inducer, 2B1, 1A2. Unlikely interaction with protease inhibitors. In one reported test-tube study, cocaine made HIV reproduce 20 times faster than normal.

Alcohol: Metabolized by alcohol dehydrogenase, aldehype hydrogenase; may induce p450 3A and 2E1 (minor). Avoid or use moderately. Causes dehydration; drink a lot of water.

I thought this interesting, http://www.aidsinfonyc.org/hivplus/issue1/ahead/p450.html

Look down to the steroids, I also thought that the grapefruit juice was interesting too.

I remember cookie talking about that once.


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## hackskii

Cool PDF here on liver and detox.

FLDP%20Guide.pdf


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## Cookie

> So cookie, eating the liver tabs will help in production of Cytochrome p450 and give the liver support?


Yep



> I also thought that the grapefruit juice was interesting too.
> 
> I remember cookie talking about that once.


That I did.


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## hackskii

Grapefruit Juice and Certain Medications: A Poor Match

Should I take my medications at breakfast with my grapefruit juice? Depending on the particular medications you are taking, the answer could be an emphatic "no"!

When taken with some medications, grapefruit juice increases the amount of drug in the blood. The medications affected by grapefruit juice are those that are metabolized, or broken down in the body, by the liver. Grapefruit juice has been found to inhibit the enzyme in the liver that breaks down the drugs. Therefore, more of the drug is available in the bloodstream and the patient may experience adverse effects. These interactions do not occur when either water or orange juice is substituted for grapefruit juice. It is believed that flaconoids, which are found in grapefruit juice but not in orange juice, are the cause of the problems.

The first clasification of medications reported as adversely affected by grapejuice are calcium channel antagonists. These medications are often prescribed to treat high blood pressure. Felodipine (brand name, Plendil), nifedipine (Adalat, Procardia), diltiazem (Cardizem, Dilacor), nitrendipine (Baypress) and nisoldipine (Sular) are some of the calcium channel antagonists that have been found to be affected. Some patients have reported headaches, flushed faces and lightheadedness when drinking the juice and taking these medications.

Benzodiazepines, used to treat anxiety, are broken down in the liver and are affected by grapefruit juice. Midazolam (versed) and triazolam (Halcion) taken with grapefruit juice may result in drowsiness and a decrease in reaction times. Blood levels of the antihistamine, terfenadine (Seldane), have been found to increase when taken together with grapefruit juice. Similar results have been found with quinidine, coumarin (Coumadin), and estrogens.

While grapefruit juice may have unwanted effects for patients who are unaware of the potential for problems, there may be some advantages to this drug - food interaction. Some authors have proposed that adding components of grapefruit juice to certain medications could result in the same medication potency in a individual at less cost or at a lower number of daily doses. The medical community will investigate those issues further. As for now, consult your physician or pharmacist if you think you may be experiencing a problem.


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## JSM

I am a big fan of the liver tabs. I think they work great to fill in the gaps in your diet to make sure you have that extra protein. I also think you can see a definite change in how hard you look just from taking these


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## samurai691436114498

Ok, now i am going to go with the liver tabs....might have to wait until xmas to start, man i am going to need an extra suitcase

how does the grapefruit juice affect d-bol

sorry for the HiJack


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## Cookie

> how does the grapefruit juice affect d-bol


It should be in one of your long long threads somewhere me and Biker were discussing it and various other methods to greatly improve absorbtion rates..


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## samurai691436114498

ONE SMART COOKIE said:


> It should be in one of your long long threads somewhere me and Biker were discussing it and various other methods to greatly improve absorbtion rates..


I remember, but it will improve absorbtion yes?


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## Cookie

*YES *  *  *


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## hackskii

If you read that article it does say that because it improves absorption that it can affect the way meds should be taken.

Also cayenne also increases the blood circulation to all organs in the body and is used in many herbal remedies to make the remedy more effective, or in a sence stronger.


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## Captain Hero

BUMP to read later


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## Captain Hero

Where is everyone getting there Desicated liver tabs from? Holland and Barrett variety any good?


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## winger

I just bought some. $21.00 for 500 tabs. But when I bought them about 20 years ago the tabs were over double the size they are now.


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## caiza

yes as said above where is the best place for liver tabs nowadays?


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## Cookie

H&B`s brand are good enough to do the job...


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## hackskii

I just bought 3 bottles yesteday and each tab is just over 1g of protein but very high in B-12, high in Iron.

Lets just see what these babies will do


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## caiza

holland&barrrett it is then guy's lets get some liver down us!


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## andyparry123

convinced me brother, just ordered from H&Barrett £6 for 240!:axe:


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## fits

so whats the recomended dose? surely not too many if they contain alot of iron?


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## hackskii

fits said:


> so whats the recomended dose? surely not too many if they contain alot of iron?


I hear you here.

But if I take Iron tabs then its lockup time.

But with liver, it is not like that.

Jack LaLanne used this alot and swore by them.

I started out on 6 a day but that is over 6 grams of protein and will work up during the week to aid in protein intake.


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## Cookie

> so whats the recomended dose? surely not too many if they contain alot of iron?


10-12 aday to begin with and build up slowly from there and dont have the last ones any later than about 5-6pm as you`ll not sleep at night....

As for the toxocity of iron thats easy really...lol...You should always cycle your supplements like you do gear to allow the body to clear itself of any waste byproducts and to allow the body to resensitce itself to the supplements or you`ll stop getting anything from then(the supp companies dont tell you that one eh)..

As for taking liver and growing like a weed on it I have a little trick but I`ll save that for later and see how you all go with the regular way....roflmfao...


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## fits

6 buld up/12 build up. not a prob, but build up to what? how many have you blokes been up to? and 7 days per week?


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## Cookie

fits said:


> 6 buld up/12 build up. not a prob, but build up to what? how many have you blokes been up to? and 7 days per week?


Cycle them at 4-6 weeks on 1-2 weeks off

Do you seriously want to know how many i have done in the past


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## fits

ONE SMART COOKIE said:


> Cycle them at 4-6 weeks on 1-2 weeks off
> 
> Do you seriously want to know how many i have done in the past


LOL YES.......................go on spill the beans.................................


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## hackskii

Mine say 6 a day but I am going to stick to 10 and do that for 300 tabs or one month to see what happens.


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## caiza

how long till you notice any effects from the liver tab's?


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## Cookie

> how long till you notice any effects from the liver tab's?


How long is a piece of string?????????

3-5 days for me and the energy levels rise..but we are all different ..learn to listen to your "own" body......



> LOL YES.......................go on spill the beans.................................


50+ with other things to boost their effects...lol...


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## fits

ONE SMART COOKIE said:


> How long is a piece of string?????????
> 
> 3-5 days for me and the energy levels rise..but we are all different ..learn to listen to your "own" body......
> 
> 50+ with other things to boost their effects...lol...


 LOL im surprised you have not done yourself some harm!!!!

thanks for the info, think ill get some when i go back in two weeks, hopefully H&B will have a sale on!


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## winger

fits said:


> LOL im surprised you have not done yourself some harm!!!!
> 
> thanks for the info, think ill get some when i go back in two weeks, hopefully H&B will have a sale on!


Organ meat is good.


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## hackskii

They are high in B12, this gives some massive energy (low levels) (not me), this is common, liver is a good source of B12 and iron and protein along with possible other factors that the old bodybuilders used.

*Pocket full of protein, all you add is water*


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## fits

A great traditional dish is Lever and Bacon with onion gravy! Mmmmmmm

Is eating liver just as good or does the cooking process destroy any of the goodness??


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## Cookie

fits said:


> LOL im surprised you have not done yourself some harm!!!!
> 
> thanks for the info


Not really...the only things to cause harm to my health IMHO were... T3, Epherdrine,Clenbuterol.....all of which are different but work along the same pathways..if you get my drift...


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## Cookie

fits said:


> A great traditional dish is Lever and Bacon with onion gravy! Mmmmmmm
> 
> Is eating liver just as good or does the cooking process destroy any of the goodness??


Better to put blue cheese on that bacon and liver imo...

Eating any meat or organ is good for you as long as it isnt overly cooked..


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## hackskii

ONE SMART COOKIE said:


> Eating any meat or organ is good for you as long as it isnt overly cooked..


Totally agree with this.

Used to treat scurvy with raw meat once a time ago.


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## gadgesxi

ONE SMART COOKIE said:


> 10-12 aday to begin with and build up slowly from there and dont have the last ones any later than about 5-6pm as you`ll not sleep at night....
> 
> As for the toxocity of iron thats easy really...lol...You should always cycle your supplements like you do gear to allow the body to clear itself of any waste byproducts and to allow the body to resensitce itself to the supplements or you`ll stop getting anything from then(the supp companies dont tell you that one eh)..
> 
> As for taking liver and growing like a weed on it I have a little trick but I`ll save that for later and see how you all go with the regular way....roflmfao...


its says 1- 3 tabs a day on the tub!


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## hackskii

Mine says 6 a day, I take 10 as they are kindof expensive.

I do notice a kindof weird smell in my urine whan I take these.

I cant put my finger on it other than it smells diffrent.


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## gadgesxi

i got mine from hollands and barret, 500 for £10.


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## winger

For some reason, the Desiccated liver tabs were much better 20 years ago. Or maybe I was 20 years younger.


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## Cookie

gadgesxi said:


> its says 1- 3 tabs a day on the tub!


And your point is???????

Its says to only take 1 shot of sust every 28 days on the medical insert but how many bbers do you see take an notice of that??????

As a side note.....

One other good reason to take liver tabs is simply due to it contains small amounts of creatine so no need to supplement with another source as not needed so saving yourselves a few quid in the process...

OOOOOhhh and maybe thats why the supp companys slammed liver so much in the past as it wasnt a major money earner for them as say over priced creatine supplements....


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## Ironman

OSC - So its a bad idea to take when 'on' but when off shovel em down? Have you ever taken them when on if so did you notice them inhibiting the gear at all?

I used to take them alot when I trained naturally and I thought they were great.


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## winger

On or off they have good nutritional value.


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## hackskii

They are high in vitamin B-12, Iron, and about 1 gram of protein per tab.

It is supposed to help build red blood cells, known to increase energy too (probably has something to do with the B-12).

Mick Hart was suggesting something about supporting the liver and having something to do with some growth factors too.

*Look below at the highlighted section, anti estrogen?..hmmm*

*Copy and paste:*

Is liver old school? You better believe it! Liver is among the first supplements ever used to increase muscle size and strength. Pre-steroids, the reverend Paul Anderson was one of the biggest and strongest men who ever lived. He squatted to parallel with reliable witnesses with over 1000-lbs. 35-years ago.

Liver has been a training secret used by thousands of bodybuilders. In factual truth, more Mr. America, Mr. Universe, and yes, Mr. Olympia winners have used liver to build their championship physiques than any other supplement in the world with perhaps the exception of a pure protein powder.

At the 2001 Arnold Expo we had two former IFBB Mr. World/Universe winners, Dave Draper and Bill Grant, seek us out for their "liver fix." Draper actually tore into the jar right there on the spot to give him extra energy to get through a long day of meeting fans and autographing his book, Brother Iron - Sister Steel!)

One of the ironies here is that liver extract is used in clinical settings to treat not only a number of physical ailments like anemia and diabetic neuropathy, but also for drug detoxification and to support liver function. So, liver is as important to the steroid user as it is to the non-steroid user.

Is liver simply another source of protein? It certainly is one of the best. Liver is very high (80 percent by weight) in first class utilizable bodybuilding protein. A true sports nutritional expert, Eric Serrano M.D. refers to liver as the world's most perfect food. Many qualified bodybuilding nutritionists including Dr Serrano will recommend a prime source liver such as Beverly's Ultra 40 no matter what your goal.

*Are there more efficient sources of protein? No. From a supplemental standpoint, even the best food chemists in the world can't duplicate the powers of a true whole food such as liver. Unlike processed protein powders a plethora of nutritional factors occur naturally in liver. This includes amino acids, nucleic acids (RNA/DNA) for proper amino acid utilization and cell growth, B complex with B-12, Folic Acid, Co Q 10, selenium, phosphorous, copper, zinc, GTF chromium (insulin regulator), heme iron for your blood and cytochrome p-450. Liver also contains anti-fatigue, lipotropic (fat metabolizing) and growth factors, including an anti estrogen factor which helps potentiate testosterone. WOW! *

So, are you still not convinced?

I have been taking liver every day for about 3 weeks.

After reading that i am gonna either keep taking it or up the liver each day.

I take 10 a day right now.


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## Cookie

Ironman said:


> OSC - So its a bad idea to take when 'on' but when off shovel em down? Have you ever taken them when on if so did you notice them inhibiting the gear at all?
> 
> I used to take them alot when I trained naturally and I thought they were great.


A bit of a double edged answer really...

The p450 in the liver tabs is what the liver uses to breakdown and attack foreign bodies in the liver and bloodstream to keep it healthy,so this "MAY" reduce the effcts on an anabolic standpoint...but.. looking back over their history a lot of guys took bucket loads with their dbol and grew like weeds.

Now as for using them off cycle yeah a good idea as I feel thay would help to keep the gains made from the cycle and also help detox the body and blood ready for the next cycle...


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## Ironman

Thanks - I think I'll give them another go! You mentioned away of increasing their absortion rate?


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## Captain Hero

Ironman said:


> Thanks - I think I'll give them another go! You mentioned away of increasing their absortion rate?


mastication


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## hackskii

Ironman said:


> Thanks - I think I'll give them another go! You mentioned away of increasing their absortion rate?


Yah, chew them but I gotta warn you they smell nasty.


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## andyparry123

been takin 6 a day for 2 weeks, just got over bout of severe stomach pain marked at the end by an enormous black t^rd, dont know if it is linked but only time i get black is post a ferocious guiness stint!

:beer1:


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## Carlos901

cheers for that


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## winger

Carlos901 said:


> cheers for that


Can you give us a more visual than that?


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## Cookie

> mastication


Spot on that man....



> Yah, chew them but I gotta warn you they smell nasty.


Yeah for the most dedicated only...


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## Captain Hero

ONE SMART COOKIE said:


> Spot on that man....
> 
> Yeah for the most dedicated only...


youll get used to the taste after a while though wont you?


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## hackskii

Cap said:


> youll get used to the taste after a while though wont you?


Man, I cant even get used to the smell.:eek:

I do notice when I take them my urine smells wierd, noticed this again today.:eek:


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## winger

hackskii said:


> Man, I cant even get used to the smell.:eek:
> 
> I do notice when I take them my urine smells wierd, noticed this again today.:eek:


Thats funny.

That stuff doesn't work. I just ordered two more bottles.


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## Cookie

> youll get used to the taste after a while though wont you?


Yeah



> I do notice when I take them my urine smells wierd, noticed this again today.


That it does..I put it down to the body being in a positive nitrogen balance and the excess coming away in the urine...and any toxins aswell that the p450 has removed from the liver and blood(I may be wrong..but rarely are..lol)


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## hackskii

That is interesting cookie.

I was a tad bit hungry yesterday so I took 10 liver tabs and some fish oils and about an hour later I was very very hungry.

It was almost like the liver tabs made me more hungry.


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## Cookie

> I was a tad bit hungry yesterday so I took 10 liver tabs and some fish oils and about an hour later I was very very hungry.
> 
> It was almost like the liver tabs made me more hungry.


Some off the oldtimers used to use liver tabs on an hourly basis to keep nitrogen/protein levels up and constant to gain mass on or even keep energy levels up during dieting.


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## caiza

do you guy's take your tabs with meals or inbettween,does it really matter as stomach isnt really empty ever anyway...?


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## Cookie

caiza said:


> do you guy's take your tabs with meals or inbettween,does it really matter as stomach isnt really empty ever anyway...?


Both and your stomach should be empty at nightime or you wont allow your body time to rest and relax properly if it is having to digest food whilst your still asleep.....

Food too late at night is a common cause for causing heart attacks as the body is under stress when it should be resting...


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## hackskii

Not only that cookie in the presence of insulin the pituitary gland wont release GH.

GH gets released from the pituitary gland during R.E.M. sleep or during the first couple-few hours of sleep.


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## Captain Hero

ONE SMART COOKIE said:


> Both and your stomach should be empty at nightime or you wont allow your body time to rest and relax properly if it is having to digest food whilst your still asleep.....
> 
> Food too late at night is a common cause for causing heart attacks as the body is under stress when it should be resting...


isnt it that your not meant to eat anything after 8pm for that reason?


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## Cookie

> isnt it that your not meant to eat anything after 8pm for that reason?


They usually say 2 hrs befor sleeping to allow the food to move through the body...


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## hackskii

ONE SMART COOKIE said:


> They usually say 2 hrs befor sleeping to allow the food to move through the body...


Its longer than that cookie.


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## winger

I thought it was longer too. Some say dont eat after 6:00 p.m. I still think some protein before bed is a good thing.


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## hackskii

Well, if fat supresses insulin and insulin hinders HGH production then this is not a bad thing.

But in the zone book by Barry Sears, a small amount of fats to carb to protein ratio is a good thing, somewhere like 100 cals before bed.

Not enough to take you out but just enough to keep you in.

Eicosanoid production is key.

Not to mention everything else.


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## Cookie

I look at it this way....

If you finish eating your last meal 2 full hours before bed then you will be fine,nearly all of the digestion would have taken place and the food will be in the blood stream,as for carbs yeah limit them to a bare minimum after the 6pm mark but some easy digesting protein and good fats are ok.


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## gadgesxi

anyone notice any side effects on these liver tabs?

I seem to have a lot of 'wind' since taking them!


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## hackskii

gadgesxi said:


> anyone notice any side effects on these liver tabs?
> 
> I seem to have a lot of 'wind' since taking them!


Wind is carbs bro.

If you have a problem with digestion then digestive enzymes are the key.

Or dont eat the foods that give you gas, if you eat those foods then eat digestive enzymes and this will fix it.


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## Cookie

> anyone notice any side effects on these liver tabs?
> 
> I seem to have a lot of 'wind' since taking them!


Cant say I have experianced that..

I would suggest you cut right back to one tab per meal for a few days and then graually reintroduce them slowly a tab a day over a period of about 2 weeks and see how the "wind" problem is then.


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## gadgesxi

thanks lads i'll give it ago! I've cut down to 2 a day, see how that goes. Where can i get the digestive enzymes from?


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## Cookie

H&B sells a few


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## Captain Hero

bumping this, another good old school thread


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## SCJP

Good lad, interesting thread.


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## Big EG

OSM,

How many grams is 6 tablets?...I've found a cheap powder source.


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## drago78

my holland and barrett ones are 680mg of desicatted liver per tablet.


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## winger

What does the liver do? It's a filter to remove toxins. Should I really be taking it?


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## fits

There is allot about liver tablets online. I know Gironda used to have people use them, as well as other Glandulars. Not heard of any one using glandulars though.


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## winger

Decades ago I used to take a glandular protein. I am not sure if it did anything though.


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## hackskii

Hell yah they make sense.


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## fits

hackskii said:


> Hell yah they make sense.


 Do you use them yourself?


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## hackskii

fits said:


> Do you use them yourself?


I actually have (2) 5 pound tubs of them at home. It does not taste very good, but I bought 5 pounds for 70 bucks.

I do like the idea of liver myself, the color is rust red.


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## fits

hackskii said:


> I actually have (2) 5 pound tubs of them at home. It does not taste very good, but I bought 5 pounds for 70 bucks.
> 
> I do like the idea of liver myself, the color is rust red.


 So have you ever noticed? recorded and changes while using them?


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## hackskii

fits said:


> So have you ever noticed? recorded and changes while using them?


Well, they taste like hell and I dont use them with any consistancy.

But I do suspect they have some anabolic properties, some great nutritional properties, and some anti-estrogen properties too.

Would I use them in pill form?...................Totally

Do I have pills?.........................No

I need to use it, before it gets bad and I only have 10 pounds worth.........lol

I am on a small cycle now growing very well and I actually need to add this to my diet.........


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## fits

hackskii said:


> Well, they taste like hell and I dont use them with any consistancy.
> 
> But I do suspect they have some anabolic properties, some great nutritional properties, and some anti-estrogen properties too.
> 
> Would I use them in pill form?...................Totally
> 
> Do I have pills?.........................No
> 
> I need to use it, before it gets bad and I only have 10 pounds worth.........lol
> 
> I am on a small cycle now growing very well and I actually need to add this to my diet.........


 powder form eeeeeeeeeewwwwwwwwww lol

well, maybe try giving them a consistant chance ad let us know how you get on?

what Glandular is it? is it a mix?


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## hackskii

It resembles powdered tree bark....lol..............Smells much worse tho:eek:


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## _Shaun_

In America you lucky lucky people have Beverly International Ultra 40 Desicatted Liver tabs.

You also have Tried N True Desicatted Liver tabs.

And you also have NSP Nutrition liver tabs.

All of those liver tablets are big, real value for money.

If memory serves I believe the Tried N True tabs are around 3,000mg of pure argentinean beef liver per pill with the Ultra 40 being around 2,600mg and the NSP version around 2,000mg.

Over here in England I have found a source for the Ultra 40 tabs but the price is very very high.

I have also found a source for the NOW Foods liver powder, but try taking that to work and mixing it in water on the production line!

So I buy the cheap 10 grain (650mg) pills from Holland & Barrett.

Do they work?

Yes.

But you have to chomp a lot of the 10 grain pills, and Holland & Barrett do not always have them in stock, I tend to stock up on a months supply first.

Unfortunately whey protein is big business right now, if people knew just what garbage whey protein was they'd never buy it, but everyone (or most people) seem to believe the adverts in the magazines so while liver tabs are vastly superior in every way, shape and form to whey, it's whey that people buy.

Why?

Profit.

In a perfect world we'd have a never ending supply of argentinean beef liver pills, real milk & egg protein powder, easy access to fertile hens eggs, masses of glandulars, with of course our chemical assistance....

Heaven on earth.

Many many years ago Vince Gironda said, "I will put my reputation on the line to prove that steroids are not any better or as good as four dozen fertile eggs, 100 liver tabs, and 100 amino acid tablets per day".

Vince made that claim back in the late 60's/early 70's when the amounts of steroids the Pro's were taking was an absolute joke compared to the amounts currently being taken by todays Pro's.

He also meant that as well as consuming all of the above, the athlete would also be following, to the letter, Vince's intense bodybuilding workouts.

I have absolutely no doubt at all that he was correct.

As he was correct about, quite literally, everything!


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## _Shaun_

After some digging I've found that Uni Liver desicatted liver pills are available in the UK.

These are made by Universal Nutrition and on this website http://centurysupplements.com/universal-uni-liver-500-tabs

they are priced at £21.99 for a tub of 500 pills with big reductions if you order two tubs or more.

Not bad at all.

Here's the Beverly Int. Ultra 40 link http://www.powerbody.co.uk/product-beverly_international_ultra_40_500_tablets_,1622.html

Truly a great liver pill but look at the price - £39.27 for a 500 tub and that's before shipping.

A bit cheaper on this site but still pricey http://www.biovita.co.uk/beverly-international-ultra-40-500-tablets.html

In the grand scheme of muscle building this is how I have my top 5 products.

1. AAS's

2. The stronger PH's, S-Drol/M-drol etc....and possibly HGH

3. Fertile hens eggs - at least 36 per day

4. 40 grain desicatted liver tablets - at least 40 per day

5. Quality BCAA's at least 40 per day

What would be interesting to see would be the results achieved by a steroid user who adopted the eggs 'n liver approach and also trained using the maximum intensity routines that Gironda advocated.

I believe the results would be nothing short of spectacular.

Using around 30 eggs per day and an inferior DL tablet (Holland & Barrett's own brand) and supplementing with P-Mag (while training using Gironda's short rest intervals between sets) I managed to gain 14lbs of scale weight with a pretty substantial reduction in bodyfat, so in reality the amount of muscle I gained was probably north of 20lbs.

Replace the P-Mag with an AAS, replace the crappy DL pill with a 40grain pill, add a few more eggs and a quality BCAA (and reduce the rest intervals to one deep breath between sets, I was taking three) and my results would have been substantially more dramatic, nothing short of amazing even.

In answer to your original question: Are liver tablets anabolic?

Yes they are.

But you'll need the 40grain pills and you have to eat them every few hours, making sure you chomp your way through a minimum of 30 per day.

Chomp?

Yes, chew them, it tastes foul to begin with but you soon get used to it. If you chew them your body doesn't have to break down the pill as much as it would do if you didn't chew them, also add a couple of Betaine HCI tablets to each meal to further aid your stomach in the digestion process.

In Gironda's day his liver pills were pretty small, he had to make do with either 7.5grain or 10grain at best.

That's why he advocated eating 100 or more per day.

Jack LaLanne said that he would eat anything up to 200 liver pills per day when he was preparing for a contest!

A 650mg liver pill is a 10grain pill, the Ultra 40 pills are 2,600mg of beef liver per pill, that's a 40grain pill.

So 30 x 40grain pills per day is the same as eating 120 x 10grain pills, except it's even better because you're cutting out a lot of the filler crap that goes into most pills these days.


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## _Shaun_

Here's another UK based desicatted liver stockist http://www.ultimate-nutrition.co.uk/desiccated-liver-haeomoglobin-iron-600-includes-100-tablets-free/550/N/337

But these guys don't say where they get their liver pills from.

The only liver tablet anyone should ever eat are the tablets which use nothing but Argentinean beef liver.

Why?

Because the Argentinean gov'ment do not allow their cattle to graze on grass that's been sprayed with fertilizers and chemicals, nor do they allow their cattle to be injected with steroids and hormones. These cows wander freely over the fields grazing on naturally growing grass.

The result of that is a clean healthy liver.

Also, the above company don't tell you how many grains each pill is, these pills commonly start at 7.5grains with a maximum of over 40grains.

More questions than answers - avoid!


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## bayman

_Shaun_ Some good points, some bordering on BB'ing folklore however. I've never tried dessicated liver tabs myself, so I can't comment on their efficiacy, but to address some of your other points:

- I personally don't believe Whey protein is rubbish. I've been to a large industrial processor of whey in the UK and seen first hand how it's made, this aside the protein fractions within whey have been shown to have numerous health benefits. I'd agree it's certainly not the nutritional powerhourse liver is, but at the end of the day it's a protein fraction seperated from milk.

- BCAA's: Wholefood sources of protein contain plenty. Do the math and you'll find on average a bodybuilders diet will contain 40-50g of BCAA anyway from foods, maybe more depending on the amount of dairy and total protein they get in. Freeform BCAA may well trigger protein synthesis very well, but muscle building is not just a net result of this alone. I think they're a waste of money that could be better spent on real food.

- Beef in the UK: I work very closely to the agricultural industry here, most of our beef is in the main grass fed, maybe "finished" with some grain. We have tight controls over hormone and anti-biotic use, UK beef is worlds apart from the US "feedlot" stuff. To sum up, our beef (nutritionally speaking) will be almost identical in content to the Argy stuff.


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## _Shaun_

Our beef is on a par with the Argies?

Superb - I didn't know that.

Whey protein. Well I've used it myself and found it to be nothing short of worthless. Whey is the skim of cottage cheese. Now, I'm no nutritionist but when you seperate a food source, like the egg white from the yolk or in this case the whey from the milk, surely you are left with an incomplete food?

The stomach is going to have a pretty tough time digesting the protein if you have removed the fat source.

The claims made from the supplement industry that whey is a superior form of protein than an egg is just complete and utter rubbish.

Like I said, I'm no nutritionist and don't pretend to be.

I go on real time results, I try something myself to see if it works, or not.

What I can tell you is this: whey protein did nothing for me at all, I've used Maximuscles (someone shoot me), MuscleTech's and Nutrisports.

None of it did anything except make me feel good after the workout - whey protein is just carbohydrated sugar, of course I felt good, I'd just gotten a sugar fix!

I'm not saying all protein powders are to be avoided - show me where I can buy an organic non-instantized Milk & Egg protein powder and I'll be first in the queue.

Bodybuilding magazines and supplement companies have conned the public into believing whey is numero uno in the world of protein. Eggs have been recognized for thousands of years as the finest form of protein and a nutritional wonderfood - in the early 90's supplement companies decided that they could make far more money if the "best" protein source could only be bought from them!

So they lied and said eggs were not as good as whey protein and guess what folks, we have millions and millions of tubs of whey right here.

I have never known a supplement company to tell the truth about any supplement.

They are liars and con artists, their advice is to be thrown in the bin.

Eggs, liver, raw milk.

Those are the three best sources of protein.

BCAA's - not experimented with them myself to a large degree at present. But I will say this, Vince Gironda advocated their use, so I'm inclined to lean towards his recommendations.

Why?

Because so far in my bodybuilding journey, everything (without exception) that he has preached, works!


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## bayman

I do like to see if stuff makes a difference myself, so I can relate to that, and that's why I rule out BCAA as being useful. I've used it over various dietary and training strategies at the recommended doses and above and not noticed a difference either way. That said, I get plenty of protein from my diet, and like a fair bit of dairy (which is BCAA rich anyway).

I'd be interested to see if dessicated liver did make a difference, how many of those Uni Nutrition ones per day would you need? 20 would equal 32g of protein, maybe 10 pre and 10 post workout? Wouldn't workout too bad cost wise at that given I've found the 500tab tubs for £17.49.


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## _Shaun_

Maybe BCAA on it's own doesn't contribute much toward building muscle, maybe it works best when used in conjunction with desicatted liver and eggs?

Gironda never suggested using them as a stand alone supplement in any of the material I've read - and I've read a lot.

Then again maybe it depends on the source that's used for the BCAA's - according to one report I read milk is a poor source from which to obtain BCAA's.

With regards to to the Uni Nutrition Uni Liver DL pills - have a look at this:

Manufacturer Universal Nutrition

Serving Size: 2 Tablets

Per Container: 500 Tablets

Ingredients (Amount Per Serving) 14 Calories

3 g Protein 6%

110 mcg Riboflavin 6%

500 mcg Niacin 3%

1 mg Vitamin B6 50%

5 mcg Vitamin B12 85%

120 mg Calcium 12%

100 mg Phosphorus 10%

22 mg Choline

Other Ingredients Dessicated Bovine Liver, Whey (Milk), Dicalcium Phosphate, Microcrystalline Cellulose, Stearic Acid, Magnesium Stearate, Lecithin (Soy)

Made in a GMP facility that uses milk, soy, egg, and peanuts

Directions As a dietary supplement, take 2 tablets with each meal. Daily intake can be increased to4 or 6 tablets per each meal.

Warning Please consult your physician before starting any exercise or nutritional program. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat or cure or prevent any disease.

Two things stand out:

1. Why are they using whey in a beef liver pill?

2. Why is there 120mg of Calcium in every serving (2 tablets)?

If you were to take 30 pills per day, that would be 1,800mg of Calcium just from these pills, not including the Calcium you were getting from other sources in your diet.

Aren't Gall Stones a build up of Calcium deposits?

I'm now wondering if this particular brand are a good idea or not - I'll have to look into Calcium and how much a person can absorb in one day.

Again, more questions than answers!


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## _Shaun_

Assuming this label is correct, each pill contains 1.5 grams of protein - 3 grams per serving with a serving being 2 pills.

On the label the first ingredient has to be the ingredient with the highest quantity in each pill, so first on the list is Dessicated Bovine Liver, but in second place we see Whey, so I'm wondering just how much of each 1.5gram pill is liver and how much is whey?

By law there has to be more Bovine Liver in the pill than Whey and since those are the only two protein sources on the label it could be that 60% of the pill is Bovine Liver with the remaining 40% being Whey.

If that was the case these pills would not be worth buying.

Whey is garbage.

Only thing to do I think is to trawl the bodybuilding blogs everywhere and read peoples comments to see if this stuff actually works, or not.

Using whey as a filler in a liver pill, that has to be a first!


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## _Shaun_

On the Preditor Nutrition website they also sell Uni Liver, here is the label:

Universal Uni Liver 500 Tabs

Uni-Liver is an exceptionally pure, natural product derived exclusively from prized grass-fed Argentinian cattle which have been raised without steroids, hormones, or pesticides. Freed of fat, water and connective tissue, Uni-Liver is quickly flash frozen to -18ºC. One of the most nutritious supplements available to all bodybuilders, Uni-Liver is very high in important amino acids and rich in key vitamins and minerals, including heme iron, riboflavin, folic acid and B12. t. Uni-Liver has been a classic staple of hardcore bodybuilders for over 15 years. Certified BSE-free.

250 Tablets

Supplement Facts

Serving Size2Tablets(60grain)

Servings Per Container125

Amount Per Serving % DV*

Calories 14

Protein 3.2g 6%*

Riboflavin 200mcg 12%

Niacin 1mg 5%

Vitamin B6 1.9mg 95%

Vitamin B12 11mcg 180%

Calcium 58mg 6%

Phosphorus 45mg 4.5%

Choline 48mg **

* Percent Daily Values are based on a 2,000 calorie diet.

** Daily Value (DV) not established.

Typical Amino Acid Profile

Grams Of Amino Acids In 100g Of Liver.

Essential Amino Acids

L-Leucine (Branched Chain Amino Acid) 5911mg **

L-Isoleucine (Branched Chain Amino Acid) 3121mg **

L-Valine (Branched Chain Amino Acid) 4196mg **

L-Threonine 2530mg **

L-Lysine 4634mg **

L-Phenylalanine 3657mg **

L-Tryptophan† 1011mg **

L-Methionine 2622mg **

L-Histidine 1061mg **

Non-Essential Amino Acids

L-Arginine†† 6671mg **

L-Aspartic Acid 5796mg **

L-Alanine 5459mg **

L-Glutamic Acid 11137mg **

L-Glycine 6134mg **

L-Tyrosine 2900mg **

L-Serine 4141mg **

L-Asparagine 277mg **

L-Taurine 1310mg **

* Percent Daily Values are based on a 2,000 calorie diet

** Daily Value (DV) not established

Other Ingredients:

Desiccated Bovine Liver, Dicalcium Phosphate, Microcrystalline Cellulose, Stearic Acid, Magnesium Stearate. Made In A GMP Facility That Processes Milk, Soy, Egg, And Peanut.

Ingredient Notes:

Uni-Liver Is Extracted From Pure Grass Fed, Argentinean Beef Liver That Is Certified BSE-Free. Each Tablet Contains 30 Grains Of Liver Which Equals Approximately 1.94g Of Liver.

Directions For Universal Uni-Liver:

As a dietary supplement, take 2 tablets with each meal. Daily intake can be increased to 4 or 6 tablets per each meal.

Warnings:

Keep out of reach of children. Before begiing any program, consult your health care practitioner.

* These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease.

Which label is correct?

This label doesn't say anything about Whey being in the pill!

Nope, I smell something familiar....more lies.

Think I'll avoid.


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## hackskii

I didnt know that about you guys beef, I have heard horror stories about ours and some suggest they eat some of their own flesh gound up with the feed.

Grass fed contains CLA and omega 3's instead of the corn fet, soy fed cows that pretty much make the meat more Omega 6's fats and loss of CLA.

That is sad as they do this only to fatten the meat up to sell for more money using crap food.

I have a study somewhere on rats in a bucket that had to swim till they died.

Here is a link to raw liver @ 5 lbs for about 80 bucks: http://www.leviticus11.com/dl.htm

Study here:

The Anti-Fatigue Value of Liver

The test conducted by Dr. B. H. Ershoff in 1951 on the value of liver in combating fatigue is now a classic study in the necessity of liver for the athlete. Dr. Ershoff was testing for an anti-fatigue diet in his laboratory. He used three groups of rats on three different diets which he fed for 12 weeks. The first group ate a laboratory diet to which he added nine synthetic and two natural vitamins. The second group of rats had this same diet plus all the B-Complex Vitamins. The third group ate the original diet with 10% desiccated liver added instead of the B-Vitamins. Each rat was placed in a drum of water from which he could not climb out. He had to keep swimming or drown so it was a genuine test of endurance as the motivation was of the highest order.

The first group swam for an average of 13.3 minutes before they gave up and indicated positively that they had no energy left. The second group swam for an average of 13.4 minutes before drowning. In the third group, the desiccated liver group, three were able to swim for 63, 83, and 87 minutes before retiring while the remainder of the group were still swimming vigorously at the end of two hours. The message is clear enough for the most "Doubting Thomas."

From page 133 of:

"The Strongest Shall Survive . . . Strength Training for Football"

by Bill Starr, B.S., M.S.

(Fifth Printing, Revised First edition, 1999)

I feel most of the benefits of the liver come from unspecified growth factors, remember IGF-1 is manufactured from the liver.

I bought 2 tubs of the liver, and I sold them after I totally gagged trying to take that. I could not put it in anything it was that bad.

My buddy takes a tablespoon full and puts it in his mouth and then drinks water, he does it in front of me and it makes me feel like I want to barf.

It is a nice consistant grown color.


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## _Shaun_

I chew up the liver pills, at first the taste was....indescribable but you soon make the adjustment - I think if the body cottons on to the fact that you're feeding it quality nutrient dense foods it makes the food somehow taste less awful.

The Beverly Ultra 40 are the ones to buy - nothing but 2600mg of pure argy beef liver in every pill, but over here one 500 tub costs almost as much as two bottles of P-Mag!

Thanks for the link, be interesting to see if they have a UK outlet.


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## _Shaun_

They don't.

Typical.

lol


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## Davey1978

Nice read - I have experimented with liver tabs too - they sure are anabolic! Much more than any whey!

_Shaun_ gave some good points here - when considering liver thabs there is nothing like Beverly's Ultra 40, these gave me always good results, their ingredinet list is clean, price high...

When I tried Uni liver from Universal I was dissapointed, big pills and a lot of other ingredients (fillers) in them - I got the nastiest farts of my life from them (yes, you will lose some best friends when on them)... Again swiched back to Beverly's and all is well! Strange? Not at all, read first post here:

http://www.davedraper.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/4594/

I am buying Ultra 40's direclty from USA, with shipping and taxes is still cheaper than anywhere in EU - from here: http://www.betterlife.com/prod_home_page.asp?prod_id=5834

They are still expensive, but worth every penny! (especially compared to Universals crap)...

Going a little offtopic with Shaun - egg proteins are far superior compared to whey, I have much better results with them. But advertisers made whey "superior"... And liver could be called superfood.


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## Bish83

Iv tried H&B tabs and i didnt get quite the hunger pangs just wanted to grind my teeth. I think i was taking 10-15 a day and they added additional vitamin B12 to it that is the synthetic version. Up side is they did digest pretty fast without mastication.

What id like to know is when do the farmers in the uk start feeding the animals corn/soy feed, eventually the grass disapears in the summer months, just a heads up so i could switch to a liver tab supp to help cover me.

Just checked the link Davey1978, how safe are the pituitary gland tabs?


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## bayman

Bish83 said:


> What id like to know is when do the farmers in the uk start feeding the animals corn/soy feed, eventually the grass disapears in the summer months, just a heads up so i could switch to a liver tab supp to help cover me.


They don't in the main. The UK gets plenty of rain, thus grass availability isn't normally an issue in the summer; over-winter animals tend to be fed fermented grass (silage) and some supplementary feed. This is waaay more of an issue in the US than over here.


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## Davey1978

Bish83 said:


> Just checked the link Davey1978, how safe are the pituitary gland tabs?


Can't comment the safety of that (don't know for any research or experiences), but I don't really see any benefit of these (I doubt that they raise natural GH production so much that you could benefit from that).


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## freestylechaz

Reading on westonaprice.org another option is to buy, grass fed, organic liver, freeze, and cut up into your own tablets...although not sure how to cut it once frozen lol :S


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