# What stops you losing fat and gaining muscle at the same time



## zak007 (Nov 12, 2011)

Here is a example of what I do

Weight Training: Monday-Tuesday Thursday-Friday

Cardio: Wednesday 1 hour moderate intesity able to hold a conversation throughout cardio if required

Cardio: saturday

Sunday off

Now If say im bulking whats to stop me losing fat and putting on weight at the same time?

Surely the cardio burns fat and speeds up metabolism.....

This is Au Naturellllllle btw no AAS

^^ For any smart asses a purposely spelled it like that.


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## Suprakill4 (Jul 11, 2008)

Calories in versus calories out, got to be in a deficit to lose fat but have an excess to grow. And you wont be growing the day you train, it will be after in the recovery process where, by your method above, you will be doing cardio and may be eating less than maintainance on that day.


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## Wheyman (Sep 6, 2011)

Suprakill4 said:


> Calories in versus calories out, got to be in a deficit to lose fat but have an excess to grow. And you wont be growing the day you train, it will be after in the recovery process where, by your method above, you will be doing cardio and may be eating less than maintainance on that day.


Remember in the gym you dont make muscle you break muscle


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## crofty89 (Nov 4, 2011)

You need to start doing some high intensity cardio for max 30 mins to strip the fat. It's called HIIT. Get on a treadmill and do 30 second sprint 30 second rest for 10 mins. Then do it on rower and x-trainer. Search on google for HIIT there's loads of good workouts.


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## zak007 (Nov 12, 2011)

Suprakill4 said:


> Calories in versus calories out, got to be in a deficit to lose fat but have an excess to grow. And you wont be growing the day you train, it will be after in the recovery process where, by your method above, you will be doing cardio and may be eating less than maintainance on that day.


yeah but say for example doing fasted cardio mornins then evening sessions weekends

surely during the cardio process youll burn fat it wont be significant amounts but surely something and surely in a long term process it can be done?

Im above maintenace just now and was going to go on a bulk and add in cardio and see how it goes but wanting peoples views on doing this so maybe I could bulk but do cardio at the same time and hopefully be a lean bulk while maintaing/losing bf


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## zak007 (Nov 12, 2011)

crofty89 said:


> You need to start doing some high intensity cardio for max 30 mins to strip the fat. It's called HIIT. Get on a treadmill and do 30 second sprint 30 second rest for 10 mins. Then do it on rower and x-trainer. Search on google for HIIT there's loads of good workouts.


I use to do HIIT before but atm am just easing maself into cardio again as a lost a lot of fitness and find that doing it at a moderate intensity a dont lose the motivation to do cardio as well

May change to HIIT 4 weeks in depending on results


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## crofty89 (Nov 4, 2011)

That's fair enough, it's a killer to begin with especially when fitness is at a low! Can't recommend it enough though results are fantastic.


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## Threepwood (Nov 12, 2009)

Your body stores 200g-400g of carbs in your muscles .. That is potentially 1600 calories you will have to burn before your body uses primarily fat stores for energy, if you are bulking and fully 'stored' .


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## zak007 (Nov 12, 2011)

crofty89 said:


> That's fair enough, it's a killer to begin with especially when fitness is at a low! Can't recommend it enough though results are fantastic.


Will do it in 4 weeks fitness should be ok by then it doesnt help that I smoke and have asmtha lol



Threepwood said:


> Your body stores 200g-400g of carbs in your muscles .. That is potentially 1600 calories you will have to burn before your body uses primarily fat stores for energy, if you are bulking and fully 'stored' .


where did you get that info from buddy never heard of that before


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## 36-26 (Jun 30, 2009)

Threepwood said:


> Your body stores 200g-400g of carbs in your muscles .. That is potentially 1600 calories you will have to burn before your body uses primarily fat stores for energy, if you are bulking and fully 'stored' .


Thats not true, you don't need to burn every bit of stored glycogen before you burn fat.


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## pham (Dec 9, 2011)

This might be a stupid question, but if u are carrying a bit of bodyfat why can the body not use this as an energy source to build muscle?


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## zak007 (Nov 12, 2011)

36-26 said:


> Thats not true, you don't need to burn every bit of stored glycogen before you burn fat.


not sure on this so NO comment 



pham said:


> This might be a stupid question, but if u are carrying a bit of bodyfat why can the body not use this as an energy source to build muscle?


for your body to use fat as a energy source you need to be in a ketosis state as far as im aware....

I will stand corrected


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

Threepwood said:


> Your body stores 200g-400g of carbs in your muscles .. That is potentially 1600 calories you will have to burn before your body uses primarily fat stores for energy, if you are bulking and fully 'stored' .


quote your reference please.......as in my opinion this is not true but i am willing to read your reference........


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

your body uses available energy first as a energy source once this is tapped it will use fat stores......muscle glycogen is not an available source of energy and does not need to be used first before fat is used for energy........this is why the 2 main times to tap into fat stores whilst doing cardio is AM after a fast (sleep) thus no readily available energy from carbs, and after training where you have used the enrgy you have gained from carbs to lift weights thus cardio will at some point tap into fat stores.......but cardio no matter the type will not immediatly use fat for energy when doing cardio......

as for the original question, fat loss is acheived through lowering the calories you take in and raising the calories you burn........building muscle is acheived through eating more calories than you burn thus creating an enviroment to build muscle.....(well you dont build new tissue you make bigger existing muscle) so to acheive both is a true challenge and in my experiance only a few can achieve this and then not in the true sense of the word.....

you can bulk and maintain a lean physique but that does not mean you strip fat......


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

pham said:


> This might be a stupid question, but if u are carrying a bit of bodyfat why can the body not use this as an energy source to build muscle?


This does happen with newbies who start weight training from a position of having a lot of bodyfat... they can continue to gain muscle and lose fat at the same time for a long time.

In truth you can gain muscle in a calorie deficit, but only if the calorie deficit is very small (just a couple of percent lower than maintenance calories) and does not drop anywhere close to your BMR, and you also have decent energy reserves from stored fat and stored glycogen.

In simple terms I would say assuming a very tiny kcal deficit as mentioned above you can continue to gain muscle whilst your b/fat levels are above average, are likely to only gain very slightly or maintain only when you are in the average b/fat range, and when shooting for extreme leanness and of below average b/fat you are almost certain to be catabolic to muscle.

If calorie deficit is high however even if you are carrying a lot of fat you are unlikely to build any appreciable amount of muscle... is all about cutting very very gradually to stand a chance of achieving it.


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## Threepwood (Nov 12, 2009)

"Your body stores 200g-400g of carbs in your muscles .. That is potentially 1600 calories you will have to burn before your body uses primarily fat stores for energy, if you are bulking and fully 'stored' ."



36-26 said:


> Thats not true, you don't need to burn every bit of stored glycogen before you burn fat.


Now please re-read what i wrote

... POTENTIALLY ... PRIMARILY

Of course the body uses partly fats as an energy source but to burn PRIMARILY fat you will have to deplete your muscle glycogen stores and will go into ketosis. Keto diet anyone?

Anyway that's the theory behind it. It's known that certain training can increase a persons ability to burn fat instead of muscle glycogen.

By the way i'm not some internet wannabe guru, this is just what i've been taught on a recent Nutrition course


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

Threepwood said:


> "Your body stores 200g-400g of carbs in your muscles .. That is potentially 1600 calories you will have to burn before your body uses primarily fat stores for energy, if you are bulking and fully 'stored' ."
> 
> Now please re-read what i wrote
> 
> ...


as i requested please show the source for the *"Your body stores 200g-400g of carbs in your muscles"* as i mentioned i am interested to read the source, i have never been on a nutrition course so this might be the reason i have never come across this number.......


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## OJay (Mar 7, 2008)

That's the old level 2 fitness instructor course giving that myth Paul  was it 300g in muscles and 100g in liver for brain function?  nice generalisation lol


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## 36-26 (Jun 30, 2009)

Threepwood said:


> "Your body stores 200g-400g of carbs in your muscles .. That is potentially 1600 calories you will have to burn before your body uses primarily fat stores for energy, if you are bulking and fully 'stored' ."
> 
> Now please re-read what i wrote
> 
> ...


Haha don't be getting ratty, you are obviously a real life guru so, climb back down off your high horse. The OP asked about burning fat not primarily fat so why the need for your original comment? Which is still wrong btw your body will not need to burn all stored muscle glycogen before burning fat, it will burn fat reserves first PRIMARILY when energy intake is reduced unless you are doing high intensity exercise.


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## 36-26 (Jun 30, 2009)

TheBob said:


> Please correct me as I'm not sure , does the liver hold glycogen , which in the am is depleted ?


Yes it holds it, I'm not sure if it is completely depleted it the morning though.


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## zak007 (Nov 12, 2011)

so what if your above maintenance say for instance my maintenace cals are 2000 I choose to bulk and hit 2500-3000 per day

Now in that ill do cardio 4x20 after workout and 1 60minute session on a day off

I should be putting on muscle due to the excess calories as well as losing weight from the cardio sessions after workouts most likely the tank will be empty so not much glycogen or carbs to use as energy and 20 minutes of medium-high intensity will burn some fat but it will be a slow process.......


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## 36-26 (Jun 30, 2009)

Rq355 said:


> so what if your above maintenance say for instance my maintenace cals are 2000 I choose to bulk and hit 2500-3000 per day
> 
> Now in that ill do cardio 4x20 after workout and 1 60minute session on a day off
> 
> I should be putting on muscle due to the excess calories as well as losing weight from the cardio sessions after workouts most likely the tank will be empty so not much glycogen or carbs to use as energy and 20 minutes of medium-high intensity will burn some fat but it will be a slow process.......


Theoretically yes but it is so hard to get the precise number of calories to build muscle that any other excess will be stored as fat again so its a vicious circle lol. The cardio would help in keeping fat gain limited while trying to gain.


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

Rq355 said:


> Here is a example of what I do
> 
> Weight Training: Monday-Tuesday Thursday-Friday
> 
> ...


you're not even close to being serious.. its impossible with AAS, T3 and 'slin & GH..

lets talk metabolism... to lose fat increase metabolism.. take extra T3.... this also increases protein turnonver..so eat more protein to not be catabolic... problem being.. cortisol from weights and cardio stops the protein being used....

in a nutshell.

Taking AAS counteracts cortisol (for awhile, not forever, but you could take cytadren to extend that a long time...)

T3 increases fat loss... and protein synthesis (ie muscle building) because the AAS ALSO retain Nitrogen (ie the N in the NH3 that makes an amino group in an amino acid) and stop protein being used for energy or being excreted..

however, however the increased protein cals required, and carbs from the T3.. mean that you dont get fatter when putting on muscle.. but you're not getting leaner..

to that, you need to be in cal deficit.. which normally means protein (muscle) is burned, and T3 is reduced when carb cals reduced.. so your metabolism eventually slows, but only after you've lost muscle.. thats the natural version...

if taking T3 and AAS, you retrict cals and carbs, the AAS prevent pro use as fuel, so carbs in short supply, fat burned... thats why pro BBs are muscular and ripped..

even with drugs you dont get bigger and leaner at the same time, you just do one or the other better, and alternate cutting/bulkng to reach your goal

Au natural? LOL hard enough to have muscle and stay lean.. yuo'll never be big and ripped, and least of all lose fat and build msucle at the same time... metabolically impossible..


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

Threepwood said:


> "Your body stores 200g-400g of carbs in your muscles .. That is potentially 1600 calories you will have to burn before your body uses primarily fat stores for energy, if you are bulking and fully 'stored' ."
> 
> Now please re-read what i wrote
> 
> ...


not sure of the numbers, but otherwise correct and a good post..


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

PS... sorry for the typos?lnaguage... sleep-eze and bottle of vodka.. tyring to sleep!


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## 36-26 (Jun 30, 2009)

Threepwood said:


> "Your body stores 200g-400g of carbs in your muscles .. That is potentially 1600 calories you will have to burn before your body uses primarily fat stores for energy, if you are bulking and fully 'stored' ."
> 
> Now please re-read what i wrote
> 
> ...


OK technically you are right, but the OP is talking about burning fat, not ketosis or primarily fat. You are talking about cutting more or less, I think he is mostly concerned with building muscle and a bit of fat loss which is at best nigh on impossible unless a beginner. I think we had our wires a bit crossed. Can we still be mates lol?


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## zak007 (Nov 12, 2011)

ausbuilt said:


> you're not even close to being serious.. its impossible with AAS, T3 and 'slin & GH..
> 
> lets talk metabolism... to lose fat increase metabolism.. take extra T3.... this also increases protein turnonver..so eat more protein to not be catabolic... problem being.. cortisol from weights and cardio stops the protein being used....
> 
> ...


Always informative posts!!!

I was looking into doing t3 but not done too much research

how would it go to burning fat without AAS, but as you say the AAS prevents protein to be used as a fuel so no AAS will mean protein will be used

the question ive got now is



Rq355 said:


> so what if your above maintenance say for example my maintenance cals are 2000 I choose to bulk and hit 2500-3000 per day
> 
> Now in that ill do cardio 4x20 after workout and 1 60minute session on a day off
> 
> I should be putting on muscle due to the excess calories as well as losing weight from the cardio sessions after workouts most likely the tank will be empty so not much glycogen or carbs to use as energy and 20 minutes of medium-high intensity will burn some fat but it will be a slow process.......


Edit: am just under 11.5 stone just now and 12% bf would be looking at 12-14 with 10% and ad be a happy chappy :thumb:


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

Rq355 said:


> Always informative posts!!!
> 
> I was looking into doing t3 but not done too much research
> 
> ...


if thats you in the Avi... amazing condition for a natty... you"ll prob get to your goal- its realistic.. but you"ll achieve it by alternating between cut/bulk (i recommend 4 weeks of each at a time) not doing both at the same time.


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## zak007 (Nov 12, 2011)

ausbuilt said:


> if thats you in the Avi... amazing condition for a natty... you"ll prob get to your goal- its realistic.. but you"ll achieve it by alternating between cut/bulk (i recommend 4 weeks of each at a time) not doing both at the same time.


Thanks ave been hard at it a year but had 3 years of messing around before and only 20 atm and read so much about AAS everyday I might take the plunge in a few years

Ive heard of the 4 weeks cut/bulk way think all follow that am just under maintenance cals just now and will be cutting till the end of the month then bulking


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## OJay (Mar 7, 2008)

ausbuilt said:


> PS... sorry for the typos?lnaguage... sleep-eze and bottle of vodka.. tyring to sleep!


I love all the scientific facts then the mention of vodka and sleepeze  you the man 

Makes complete sense don't see why people still try and suggest possible to actually do


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## Ash1981 (Jun 16, 2009)

My take on it is you can have less fat as a percentage whilst bulking as more muscle means more fat burnt, if you 200lbs with 15% bf then go to 220lbs with 15% bf your gonna be carrying less bf percentage wise...

But you cant build muscle in a cal deficit


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## Loveleelady (Jan 3, 2012)

good thread, great info - read the responses and have question, would that mean if a person wanted to lose fat just initially they would restrict calories just do cardio and theyd lose fat? wouldnt need to do weight training


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## mark22 (Jul 13, 2011)

You really need to do weight training so your body knows it needs to hang on to the muscle it already has. Plus it helps burn more calories and is obviously fun.


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## martin brown (Dec 31, 2008)

Loveleelady said:


> good thread, great info - read the responses and have question, would that mean* if a person wanted to lose fat just initially they would restrict calories just do cardio and theyd lose fat? *wouldnt need to do weight training


Well they'd get lighter - but that's not quite always the same thing.

What you have to understand is that it isn't the cardio that makes people lose fat - walking for 45mins or whatever burns so little calories it makes almost no difference from the exercise itself. The combination of diet and increased "fat burning/ muscle developing" environment that exercise creates is what leads to results. This environment is better gained from lifting weights than traditional cardio, but both is normally a very good thing 

Many people burn fat and build muscle. The whole concept of being either catabolic or anbabolic is overly simplified and is not how the body works, but the actual gain of muscle or loss of fat is usually hindered by the attempt at achieveing the other.


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## musio (Jan 25, 2008)

This thread is brilliant. I've saved it to refer to in the future with a lot of respected posters corroborating with the same info.

Although the information is informative, it's depressing in reading that it's nearly impossible to 'look good' whilst getting to the physique you want without being assisted.

You cut - you loose muscle like anything as your body likes to burn muscle

You bulk - to get any noticeable muscle, you'll put on enough BF and have to go through really long periods of having a bit of tub on you.

It's more than an uphill struggle for a natty. It's like running into a wall


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## 36-26 (Jun 30, 2009)

musio said:


> This thread is brilliant. I've saved it to refer to in the future with a lot of respected posters corroborating with the same info.
> 
> Although the information is informative, it's depressing in reading that it's nearly impossible to 'look good' whilst getting to the physique you want without being assisted.
> 
> ...


Mate its not that hard unassisted, when bulking you obviously can't have a surplus as much as the assisted guy or you will get too fat. When cutting if you lift weights and eat enough protein you will not lose much muscle. It prob takes a little more self control unassisted but its not that hard


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

OJay said:


> That's the old level 2 fitness instructor course giving that myth Paul  was it 300g in muscles and 100g in liver for brain function?  nice generalisation lol


thanks Ojay at least someone answred my question i am confused to why the person i asked didnt though??



Loveleelady said:


> good thread, great info - read the responses and have question, would that mean if a person wanted to lose fat just initially they would restrict calories just do cardio and theyd lose fat? wouldnt need to do weight training


if you restrict calories and do cardio you will drop fat but if you restrict calories to much and do to much cardio although you will be lighter on the scales the look you have will be the same....plus studies have shown that you burn more calories if you weight train then do cardio.......


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## Loveleelady (Jan 3, 2012)

Pscarb said:


> thanks Ojay at least someone answred my question i am confused to why the person i asked didnt though??
> 
> if you restrict calories and do cardio you will drop fat but if you restrict calories to much and do to much cardio although you will be lighter on the scales the look you have will be the same....plus studies have shown that you burn more calories if you weight train then do cardio.......


thanks! thinks i get it, so to lose fat you have to do cardio and weights otherwise you will lose the fat and appear slimmer but still not have any muscle definition so you will still look wobbly


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

Loveleelady said:


> thanks! thinks i get it, so to lose fat you have to do cardio and weights otherwise you will lose the fat and appear slimmer but still not have any muscle definition so you will still look wobbly


sort of the key is to use cardio and weights to lose weight initially whilst still eating a protein rich diet (dont cut all carbs or fats) then as the weight drop stops and it will then start to chip away at the diet, drop to much to soon and you will burn muscle thus weighing less but looking the same.....something you want to avoid


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## Loveleelady (Jan 3, 2012)

Pscarb said:


> sort of the key is to use cardio and weights to lose weight initially whilst still eating a protein rich diet (dont cut all carbs or fats) then as the weight drop stops and it will then start to chip away at the diet, drop to much to soon and you will burn muscle thus weighing less but looking the same.....something you want to avoid


thanks pscarb - brillianty explained in nice easy understand language - i got it now


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