# Train at the right level for you! You don't want to be advanced, here's why



## simonthepieman

I've been meaning to write something like this for a while and I keep repeating myself so maybe it's a good idea to put this in its own article. After (badly) proof reading it has ended up longer than I expected so please bear with me.

You can loosely group people into 3 categories. Beginner, intermediate and advanced. Everyone wants to be better than they are, it's called ambition and it's what drives us forward, which is a great thing. However I see so many people running before they walk and they end up falling over, or worse, running in the wrong direction and no idea on how to get back on track.

Where am I going with this? We all see work outs by the top BBers and Powerlifters and see people we aspire to, so we look into what they do and try to imitate them. It makes sense, right? Well actually no. These guys are advanced, if not elite and have different problems to you and different need and therefore need a different solution. Let me explain why.

A beginner to bodybuilding can make incredible gains in their first year. Especially skinny underweight guys. We have all seen it before, at least one guy who trains hard, eats well and is most importantly, consistent goes from bones to beastly very quickly, especially when they are in their teens and their natural testosterone kicks into gear at the right time 1 stone/14lbs is easily achievable and it's not uncommon for people to triple that. Whilst there is debate, a common consensus is that the best way for beginner to make gains quickly is 3 x week full body routine that focuses on strength adaption and progressive overload with few bits of isolation to bring up the vanity muscles.

Some of the more popular routines here are 'starting strength' and 'strong lifts' (I'll add links later)

For an intermediate person (someone who has been training a year AND can't make weight progressions each session or week to week), anything above 7lbs/half a stone is considered a good yield and over 10lbs is some good going or you are still at the beginner level (in which case great, you might have some good genetic potential).

I'll touch on intermediate training a bit later.

For Advanced guys, in the base of drug free body builders, to put on 4lbs of pure lean muscle in 12 months is considered an epic feat. For a power lifter, moving your squat up 10KG in a year is a massive achievement. Yet that's what beginners can do in a month! Common training methods for people at this level are

body part splits for body builders and things like westside and 5/3/1 for the power guys.

Let's Summarize

Beginners can gain up to 3 stone of muscle and over 100KGs on big lifts

Intermediates can gain up to 5 KG and add 50KGs on some lifts

Advanced guys would consider 2 kgs of mass and 20KG weight increase a top effort.

So whose gains would you like the most? It's simple isn't it?

Yet time and time again we see people as soon as they start getting great gains they look to jump to something more advanced and lo and behold, their gains slow down. So what do they do next? They try every other advanced routine under the sun whilst making mediocre gains. Some people will do well and make great gains. But that is nothing to do with the structure and exercises of the routines they are doing. More so that they are following beginner principles. Consistent and steady progressive overload and a good surplus diet right in protein, but in many cases better gains could have been achieved by doing something more intermediate.

Ok. There's that rant off my chest. Now the next bit.

For body builders:

Beginners: high frequency mainly compounds, basic isolation

Advanced: body part splits, higher volume and greater amount of isolation and exercise specialization

Do you see a gapping void and obvious solution, yet?

How many people are beginners? 20%? Maybe 30%? How many people are genuinely advanced? 10%? 20% tops?

Whilst from reading logs and forums 80-90% train as one of the two categories stated before at a guess between 50-70% actually fall into the category 'intermediates'. So that means, a huge portion of lifters are actually doing a suboptimal routine for their needs.

What does an intermediate lifter need? I trust you are smart enough to work it out. A balance of frequency, strength adaptive training and volume for hypertrophy. I maintain that the optimum frequency for anyone is as much as possible whilst recovering for the next session and still make progression in weight or reps.

So once you have finished with a 3 times a week body part frequency? Where do you go to next? Two, obviously. As you frequency reduces and the CNS commitment required for the session reduces you can start adding in more volume. If you were doing 5 sets per body part before each session and your frequency has dropped by 50%. Increase the volume per body part by 50%. So about 8 sets as a starting point. Simple.

You also might have developed a few weak areas along the way, which you are now in position to judge. Why only now? Because as a beginner, you are weak as a whole. So maybe add a few extra isolations that address that. For me its triceps and calves, for you it could be something different. This now offers your body 2 growth cycles a week (and hypertrophy drops off massively after 36 hours in natties) and the 'potential' to grow 2x as fast (although that isn't that common) as you would on a 1 body part a week frequency.

I will link some of my favorite intermediate routines later but you can search or Google:

Upper/Lower 4 x a week

Push Pull Legs 4 x a week

Iron addicts SPBR 3 x week

Whilst considered advanced, Wenders 5/3/1 can be set up for more advanced intermediates in both 3 and 4 day versions

Once you milk this stage. I have some horrible news for you. Absolutely mortifying! You are advanced. Are you sad? You should be. You can now look forward to slow gains, grinding out brutal workout after work out for lower returns, but at this stage you should have built a hell of a physique.

***disclaimer. We are all precious and unique snowflakes and are individuals and I'm sure many of you will think there is a perfect way for you, that you have no doubt discovered and therefore this is BS. However it's impossible to write high level guidance without writing it for the average guy, which like it or not. Most people fall into that category or close to it***

*** I will post links to scientific data and articles when I get the chance I need to do some work now!***


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## Hooded

Nice little read there bro.

How do you tell who fits in what category, what are the standards for Beginner, Intermediate & Advanced? I have a rough idea but would be helpful to a lot of people if you include it.


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## simonthepieman

Hooded said:


> Nice little read there bro.
> 
> How do you tell who fits in what category, what are the standards for Beginner, Intermediate & Advanced? I have a rough idea but would be helpful to a lot of people if you include it.


The only true way to know is start at the bottom and only move up a level once that beginner routine gains stop and the same with the intermediate level.

If you can bench 200, squat 300, and deadlift 400 and still add weight to the bar every session (unrealistic I know) stick to beginner training. You will get better results


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## Hooded

simonthepieman said:


> The only true way to know is start at the bottom and only move up a level once that beginner routine gains stop and the same with the intermediate level.
> 
> If you can bench 200, squat 300, and deadlift 400 and still add weight to the bar every session (unrealistic I know) stick to beginner training. You will get better results


I get what your saying to a point but even beginners hit a brick wall from time to time sometimes they need to - Deload, Eat more, Change the rep range, change the volume Etc... and when they sus that out they can carry on making weekly progress... My point is there has to be a point where those tricks won't work because you have gone up a level.


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## simonthepieman

Hooded said:


> I get what your saying to a point but even beginners hit a brick wall from time to time sometimes they need to - Deload, Eat more, Change the rep range, change the volume Etc... and when they sus that out they can carry on making weekly progress... My point is there has to be a point where those tricks won't work because you have gone up a level.


There is no 100% answer for you. diffeernt people will suggest different things.

If i was coaching a beginniner this how I would do it. More than likely one exercise fails before the other. when then happens just change the exercise and work up from 80% or a 5RM. Keep going this until things grind to a halt. deload and reset and repeat. Once you have reset twice (dropped 20% off lifts) and are confident diet has been right. then move up.

For the record I have squatted double my body weight and deadlifted nearly triple my BW. but have had the past 2 months out of the gym (and missing the next one) and I am going to start at the beginner level and work my way up from there. albeit I will hopefully move through it quicker with muscle memory


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## Blinkey

That was a good read, but many people grind to a halt because of the fear of overtraining. Which is hard to do, the human body is designed to be pushed.


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## Blinkey

dutch_scott said:


> bodybuilders cant really overtrain, the best account of this is by @dtlv and i agree, the vikings would hike tab and fight all day for days, the slave trade was made via guys hauling manual labour for days on little food, i totally agree people forget we are designed to suffer loads its the primary reason we grow. our body was made to change due to stress.


And it is why we have survived as a race for the past umpteen hundred thousand years. It is in our genectic make up to push our bodies further than what the mind wants us to


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## Hooded

The Vegetarian said:


> And it is why we have survived as a race for the past umpteen hundred thousand years. It is in our genectic make up to push our bodies further than what the mind wants us to


It is amazing what we can do when we don't have a choice.


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## Blinkey

Hooded said:


> It is amazing what we can do when we don't have a choice.


Thats the best mindset when you enter the gym.


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## cris

overtraining,fatigue

so its not the body that gives up,but the mind is telling the body it cant be done?


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## Blinkey

cris said:


> overtraining,fatigue
> 
> so its not the body that gives up,but the mind is telling the body it cant be done?


That is why man ran a mile under 4 minutes.


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## simonthepieman

dutch_scott said:


> dont agree at all, with these limiting people posts. has shades of what @dtlv wrote in the other thread just re worded. working but will post a rebuttle later.





dutch_scott said:


> bodybuilders cant really overtrain, the best account of this is by @dtlv and i agree, the vikings would hike tab and fight all day for days, the slave trade was made via guys hauling manual labour for days on little food, i totally agree people forget we are designed to suffer loads its the primary reason we grow. our body was made to change due to stress.


Look forward to your response.

you'll see one of my core beliefs in the post (lost in rambling sorry)* "the optimum frequency for anyone is as much as possible whilst recovering for the next session and still make progression in weight or reps"*

obviously you can overtrain. Its scientific proven. However is very rare to actually see it and most body builders never even get closes

You come close to making a good point with your over simplifed example the vikings. That is adaption, which it turn helps prevent overtaining further. Many power lifters and olympic lifters are experts in this. There's no way you could chuck a strapping young lad from medievil norway into the fields and expect him like to do like the others. He would have to had built up to that incrementally


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## cris

sorry don't know how to do the quote thing @The Vegetarian

i understand the mindset principle,but most people still train so they could say how much weight they have lifted,and not how they lifted it,too many people want to fly before they have learnt to walk


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## cris

and as for the "overtraining" issue,maybe overtraining is the wrong word or phrase to use,as upto a certain extent it is because you are lacking elsewhere,be it sleep or nutrition or anything else that will hinder your progress


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## simonthepieman

Just to clarify, the original post is explain A path the becoming advanced. Not THE path. But a far more effective path than most take.

With regards to overtraining, or at least 'exhaustion' the key is to balance the formula.

Volume x frequency x intensity x genetics <= capacity x diet x rest

Well that's a vey basic simplification. But it makes sense.

Genetics is constant and capacity changes slowly. However the rest can be chanced pretty much day to day. Session to session.

Assuming bith sides are close to equal equal, If you raise something on the left hand side then you either lower another on the left or raise another on the right. The inverse holds true.

That where Dutchies example fits in. The Vikings and guys like the Romans raised their capacity so high they were capable of incredible feats us office monkeys would crumble at


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## simonthepieman

Hooded said:


> It is amazing what we can do when we don't have a choice.


We should be told to PR with a cub against our heads. That would guarantee progress :lol:


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## Hooded

simonthepieman said:


> We should be told to PR with a cub against our heads. That would guarantee progress :lol:


Haha why do you think slaves were used for big builds because they had no choice but to do what was required, why do you think they didn't use average people, because people with free will who can choose make bad decisions.


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## Hooded

Point being when you have to do something you get sh!t done especially when it's the difference between being fed or not.


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## simonthepieman

Hooded said:


> Haha why do you think slaves were used for big builds because they had no choice but to do what was required, why do you think they didn't use average people, because people with free will who can choose make bad decisions.


I'm sure it had something to do with budget control too.

Another thing that is rumoured to be done is selective breeding. The biggest strongest slaves were aloud to have babies with the broadest tallest women with sim of producing stronger and more capable slaves


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## Hooded

Lol fair point but at the end of the day the fact we can choose whether to push through that last set or add that extra 2.5 kg is our own downfall because if we had no choice it could make a huge difference to our results.


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## simonthepieman

Hooded said:


> Lol fair point but at the end of the day the fact we can choose whether to push through that last set or add that extra 2.5 kg is our own downfall because if we had no choice it could make a huge difference to our results.


Amen


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## jafc

Good read mate. Agree with a lot of what you have said, especially the bit about wanting to run before you can walk. I think i'm at that stage at the moment. It's ambition and human nature like you say, i'm forever reading articles on here about different training techniques, more advanced diets etc etc and i've only been training 3 weeks!!

It's the animal inside of us though isn't it i reckon. Theres nothing wrong with wanting to be bigger and better i don't think. However i think its important not too get too carried away or it could have a detrimental effect training etc etc.

Great read though, given me some things to think about tonight,

Nice one mate. :thumb:


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## HJL

dutch_scott said:


> bodybuilders cant really overtrain, the best account of this is by @dtlv and i agree, the vikings would hike tab and fight all day for days, the slave trade was made via guys hauling manual labour for days on little food, i totally agree people forget we are designed to suffer loads its the primary reason we grow. our body was made to change due to stress.


Would you then say that training one body part once ever 7 days is rubbish then?

I never know if it would be best to do each body part twice per week, but just less intensely, Rather than once ever 7 days with great intensity. Going balls to the wall training twice a week, i would find hard as my doms last for days sometimes.!


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## simonthepieman

jafc said:


> Good read mate. Agree with a lot of what you have said, especially the bit about wanting to run before you can walk. I think i'm at that stage at the moment. It's ambition and human nature like you say, i'm forever reading articles on here about different training techniques, more advanced diets etc etc and i've only been training 3 weeks!!
> 
> It's the animal inside of us though isn't it i reckon. Theres nothing wrong with wanting to be bigger and better i don't think. However i think its important not too get too carried away or it could have a detrimental effect training etc etc.
> 
> Great read though, given me some things to think about tonight,
> 
> Nice one mate. :thumb:


good luck buddy, give me a shout if i can i can help. i made every mistake possible so I will do my best make other avoid them and achieve bigger things quicker.

Just aim to be a little stronger each and everytime you step in the gym. make a plan and goals for a month. Stick to it and plan the next month.. If you hit your targets. Keep doing what you are doing.


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## 2H3ENCH4U

Interesting read, reminds me alot of the periodisation method.

I have been trying for 7 years and gottta admit that I have followed a similiar process, initially workouts were 4 pw with and upper lower split concetrating on compounds and aiming for high reps in order to concentrate on form, I then moved onto a muscle group split and now do a 5 day a week split (sort of inter/advanced).

I think there are alot of tricks to keep your body guessing and growing an ultimately what works for one person might not work for another.


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## tomo8

How do you work push/pull/legs x4 a week?

Do one of them twice one week? An alternate a different one week after etc.


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## RockyD

In the immortal words of Ronnie Coleman

"everybody wanna be a bodybuilder but nobody wanna lift heavy @ss weights"


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## jafc

simonthepieman said:


> good luck buddy, give me a shout if i can i can help. i made every mistake possible so I will do my best make other avoid them and achieve bigger things quicker.
> 
> Just aim to be a little stronger each and everytime you step in the gym. make a plan and goals for a month. Stick to it and plan the next month.. If you hit your targets. Keep doing what you are doing.


Thanks mate very much appreciated I'll be in touch no doubt at some stage! It is hard though cause I see people lifting more than me with better physiques and it makes me want it more and to work harder. I'm finding form the hardest bit at the moment, my forms not good. Just trying to get that right, gut my diet and sups nailed I think.

Thanks again for the offer of help mate.


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## simonthepieman

tomo8 said:


> How do you work push/pull/legs x4 a week?
> 
> Do one of them twice one week? An alternate a different one week after etc.


lol, how to make something easy difficult:

week1: push pull legs push

week2: pull legs push pull

week3: legs push pull legs

and so on.

With a good diet and if you moderate intensity and volume, you can get away with doing this at even greater fequency. This is what Matt Ogus does (6 days out of 8) and he's in not bad nick. I'd recommend starting off with 4 first though. I recommend having the days before and after leg day off


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## dann19900

I don't know why people discuss 'over training etc' so much, why not just try it for yourself? obviously everyones different. I've only been training properly for about 4 months, read a lot regarding over training etc so just tried both for myself.

Did 6 weeks doing a standard 4 day split: weight went up 2 lbs, waist went down 1/2 a inch, bench press +7.5.

Then tried 6 weeks keeping all other body parts the same but did chest/tri's 3 days a week, low,medium,high reps on different days: weight up 3 lbs, waist down just under a inch, bench press +15 kg

in my noob opinion there really isn't much point in reading too much into the science behind it, so much of it contradicts eachother and they're telling us different things every few years. Just try different things out for yourself and see what works for you, nothing to lose. Personally think over training is a bull **** statement, as long as the body part is getting a couple of days rest I don't see the problem


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## simonthepieman

This is another reason, why I tell natties to avoid training to failure. It often means you can train more often and a net greater intensity and overall load throughout the work out.


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## Bull Terrier

Simon, I've been following your posts for a while and I wanted to say my two cents..

First of all everybody is very different and there is no one-size-fits-all for training methods. For me personally I've found out the following works pretty well, at least at the moment:

-	low number of total sets, normally just 2-3 warm-up sets followed by 2 work sets;

-	1 exercise per bodypart, normally a compound exercise basing the routine on the big traditional exercises;

-	3 days per week alternating between Workout A (bench press, squat, bent-over rows) and Workout B (deadlift, military press, lying tricep extensions).

-	I further alternate Workout A and B by doing them to failure on work sets, or else deloading and doing slightly more reps without pushing too hard. In this way I get the stimulation of relatively frequent workouts for each bodypart (every 4-5 days) but without going to the limit each time and burning myself out.

Recently on this forum there's been a lot of discussion on overtraining, thus I'm hesitant to use this word. However I DO know that if I attempt to train to failure on every workout the following happens:

-	I'm unable to keep up with a good frequency, i.e. 4-5 days are absolutely not enough to recover (whether it's the muscles or the CNS, I don't really know);

-	I begin to lose ground, as in my lifts go down!

In the past I've tried linear periodisation systems, which did work well for a while but I found that once I got to a certain point I didn't manage to get past plateaus.

I really don't like the idea of not training to failure on all workouts (as you appear to recommend for natural trainers), because I don't feel that it works for me, but as I said above, I'm finding that right now my system of going to failure one workout and then below failure the following works pretty well for me.

I don't think that any one system of training works indefinitely and once my gains dry up on my current system I think I will try either the Westside Barbell Conjugation System (which I started a thread on recently) or else a non-linear periodisation method like the Sheiko system. On the thread which I started on the former, several of the more strength-minded guys on this forum didn't seem to like it much at all. However I don't think that it can harm me to at least give it a try for a couple of months and see what happens.


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## Bull Terrier

Now that you've got me started I'll just climb onto my soap box and have a little rant.

When I started weight training back in the late 80s training philosophies were very much influenced by the Weider magazines like Flex, Muscle and Fitness. Thus huge training volumes, with loads of exercises for each bodypart, 4-day splits, training to failure and beyond with rest-pause, supersets, drop sets, etc.

Joe Weider had all of his bodybuilders (or else ghost writers) write their training routines which gave them their fantastic results, of course without mentioning AAS but promoting their product line with stuff like gamma oryzinal, inosine, chromium picolinate etc. Well at the time most people in gyms followed these types of routines normally without getting good results because in my opinion it is WAY too much for people with less than stellar genetics.

At the start of the 90s there was a lone voice of reason, Stuart McRobert with his Hardgainer type routines. He was a big advocate of abbreviated routines, intensity cycling methods and big basic exercises. I started to progress again when I started to follow his advice. But at the time his methods were very much underrated by many trainees and he was regarded as something of a heretic.

Fast forward now to the present time and it appears that good sense has at last prevailed what with the popularity of good routines like Starting Strength which is very much in line with the old Hardgainer routines by Stuart McRobert, albeit with perhaps more of a structure.

Unfortunately beginner trainees tend to listen to the biggest and most muscular guys for advice on training methods, diet etc. The biggest guys are almost always the guys with the best genetics who can get away with training high-intensity and high-volume and get undoubtedly great results like this. These type of guys just do not and cannot understand the plight of the hardgainer and thus normally continue to give out bad advice.

Beginner trainees would do far better to ask successful hard gainers for training advice rather than listening to training advice from the Ronnie Colemans etc. of this world.


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## simonthepieman

Bull Terrier said:


> Now that you've got me started I'll just climb onto my soap box and have a little rant.
> 
> When I started weight training back in the late 80s training philosophies were very much influenced by the Weider magazines like Flex, Muscle and Fitness. Thus huge training volumes, with loads of exercises for each bodypart, 4-day splits, training to failure and beyond with rest-pause, supersets, drop sets, etc.
> 
> Joe Weider had all of his bodybuilders (or else ghost writers) write their training routines which gave them their fantastic results, of course without mentioning AAS but promoting their product line with stuff like gamma oryzinal, inosine, chromium picolinate etc. Well at the time most people in gyms followed these types of routines normally without getting good results because in my opinion it is WAY too much for people with less than stellar genetics.
> 
> At the start of the 90s there was a lone voice of reason, Stuart McRobert with his Hardgainer type routines. He was a big advocate of abbreviated routines, intensity cycling methods and big basic exercises. I started to progress again when I started to follow his advice. But at the time his methods were very much underrated by many trainees and he was regarded as something of a heretic.
> 
> Fast forward now to the present time and it appears that good sense has at last prevailed what with the popularity of good routines like Starting Strength which is very much in line with the old Hardgainer routines by Stuart McRobert, albeit with perhaps more of a structure.
> 
> Unfortunately beginner trainees tend to listen to the biggest and most muscular guys for advice on training methods, diet etc. The biggest guys are almost always the guys with the best genetics who can get away with training high-intensity and high-volume and get undoubtedly great results like this. These type of guys just do not and cannot understand the plight of the hardgainer and thus normally continue to give out bad advice.
> 
> Beginner trainees would do far better to ask successful hard gainers for training advice rather than listening to training advice from the Ronnie Colemans etc. of this world.


Very nice reading mate :thumbsup:


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## simonthepieman

Just for the record. I say avoid rather than never go to failure. As you say. There is no perfect answer, but most lifters tend to be one or the other. And if you go one side, the not going to failure will be better for MOST.

Good luck. Which sheiko are you look ing at? Ever consider smolov? That is hardcore!


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## Bull Terrier

simonthepieman said:


> Just for the record. I say avoid rather than never go to failure. As you say. There is no perfect answer, but most lifters tend to be one or the other. And if you go one side, the not going to failure will be better for MOST.
> 
> Good luck. Which sheiko are you look ing at? Ever consider smolov? That is hardcore!


I don't really know too much about Sheiko/Smolov - basically it is what was recommended to me by some of the hardcore strength guys on the thread which I started on the Westside Barbell Conjugate system.

I need to do a bit of reading first before deciding, however I want to further milk my current system before jumping ship. From my long experience training methods work for a finite period after which you need to change up and find something else which works.

I have quite alot of experience of linear periodisation systems, but like I said they stopped working for me and I doubt I'll go back to that model of periodisation. I quite fancy both non-linear systems like Sheiko as well as the Westside Barbell Conjugate method, despite the overall thumbs-down from uk-m posters. I wouldn't want to appear as somebody who doesn't listen to experienced board members, because I value and appreciate comments from clever guys, however I still think that this is a method which deserves to be tried first before passing final judgement on efficacy.


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## andyhuggins

Wow have missed this thread for some reason. I will be doing some serious catching up boys.


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## simonthepieman

Bull Terrier said:


> I don't really know too much about Sheiko/Smolov - basically it is what was recommended to me by some of the hardcore strength guys on the thread which I started on the Westside Barbell Conjugate system.
> 
> I need to do a bit of reading first before deciding, however I want to further milk my current system before jumping ship. From my long experience training methods work for a finite period after which you need to change up and find something else which works.
> 
> I have quite alot of experience of linear periodisation systems, but like I said they stopped working for me and I doubt I'll go back to that model of periodisation. I quite fancy both non-linear systems like Sheiko as well as the Westside Barbell Conjugate method, despite the overall thumbs-down from uk-m posters. I wouldn't want to appear as somebody who doesn't listen to experienced board members, because I value and appreciate comments from clever guys, however I still think that this is a method which deserves to be tried first before passing final judgement on efficacy.


Just going to the original post. A lot of people try Shieko far too early. Its pretty advanced and you will make (solid, but) slow progression on it.

THe guy has trained many beasts from the easy, but are you sure you can't progress faster than strength increases in every 4-6 weeks?


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## k3z

I got stronger and bigger since going from training each muscle group 2x per week over 4 days to a push pull legs routine over 3 days


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## Bull Terrier

simonthepieman said:


> Just going to the original post. A lot of people try Shieko far too early. Its pretty advanced and you will make (solid, but) slow progression on it.
> 
> THe guy has trained many beasts from the easy, but are you sure you can't progress faster than strength increases in every 4-6 weeks?


I'm not entirely sure what you meant with the final sentence, but here is my current training system:

Workout A

Bench Press (3 warm-up sets + 2 work sets)

Squat (3 warm-up sets + 2 work sets)

Bent-over rows (3 warm-up sets + 2 work sets)

Workout B

Deadlift (3 warm-up sets + 1 work set)

Seated shoulder press (2 warm-up sets + 2 work sets)

Lying tricep extensions (2 warm-up sets + 2 work sets)

I train Monday, Wednesday, Friday and alternate Workout A and Workout B.

Furthermore I alternate both workouts between doing work sets to positive failure and going pretty easy on work sets. Thus although I do each type of workout every 4/5 days, the really hard workouts are 9 days apart. Thus I feel that I am giving my muscles frequent stimulation, whilst avoiding overtraining. Before somebody gives me a lecture on how overtraining doesn't exist, all in my head, etc. etc. - my definition of overtraining (whether right or wrong) is training too hard/too often/too intense in such a way that strength decreases.

I agree with you Simon that in my opinion it is a good idea for natural trainees to train muscle groups frequently, not just once per week. You seem to have a different approach to avoiding overtraining, i.e. not going to failure (or at least not too often) on work sets.

For the moment this system is giving me tangible results, thus I have no intention of changing.

Regarding what I said earlier about periodisation, I'll try to elaborate a bit more. I used to do roughly 6-week periodisation blocks in which I'd cut weight right back on early part of cycle. I'd have a very easy period at first with much lighter weights and then each workout I'd increase the weight until getting to plateaus. Now - theoretically - if you're eating well and resting sufficiently between workouts you should then progress past your plateau. Well, this was true for a while, but then I found that I just wasn't able to make new progress.

Unfortunately I had a long period in which I had other things going on in my life and thus I was far less concentrated on weight training and thus consequently made no progress whatsoever. Then a bit over a year ago I got back into it all with renewed vigour. I did a year on a cyclical ketogenic diet to lose the flab and now I'm doing the above outlined system. In the meantime I'm finding out about new systems, and the systems which I think may benefit me could be some of the powerlifting systems which I talked about before.

Well, @simonthepieman - you're obviously a bright guy. How does my current system look to you?


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## simonthepieman

Bull Terrier said:


> I'm not entirely sure what you meant with the final sentence, but here is my current training system:
> 
> Workout A
> 
> Bench Press (3 warm-up sets + 2 work sets)
> 
> Squat (3 warm-up sets + 2 work sets)
> 
> Bent-over rows (3 warm-up sets + 2 work sets)
> 
> Workout B
> 
> Deadlift (3 warm-up sets + 1 work set)
> 
> Seated shoulder press (2 warm-up sets + 2 work sets)
> 
> Lying tricep extensions (2 warm-up sets + 2 work sets)
> 
> I train Monday, Wednesday, Friday and alternate Workout A and Workout B.
> 
> Furthermore I alternate both workouts between doing work sets to positive failure and going pretty easy on work sets. Thus although I do each type of workout every 4/5 days, the really hard workouts are 9 days apart. Thus I feel that I am giving my muscles frequent stimulation, whilst avoiding overtraining. Before somebody gives me a lecture on how overtraining doesn't exist, all in my head, etc. etc. - my definition of overtraining (whether right or wrong) is training too hard/too often/too intense in such a way that strength decreases.
> 
> I agree with you Simon that in my opinion it is a good idea for natural trainees to train muscle groups frequently, not just once per week. You seem to have a different approach to avoiding overtraining, i.e. not going to failure (or at least not too often) on work sets.
> 
> For the moment this system is giving me tangible results, thus I have no intention of changing.
> 
> Regarding what I said earlier about periodisation, I'll try to elaborate a bit more. I used to do roughly 6-week periodisation blocks in which I'd cut weight right back on early part of cycle. I'd have a very easy period at first with much lighter weights and then each workout I'd increase the weight until getting to plateaus. Now - theoretically - if you're eating well and resting sufficiently between workouts you should then progress past your plateau. Well, this was true for a while, but then I found that I just wasn't able to make new progress.
> 
> Unfortunately I had a long period in which I had other things going on in my life and thus I was far less concentrated on weight training and thus consequently made no progress whatsoever. Then a bit over a year ago I got back into it all with renewed vigour. I did a year on a cyclical ketogenic diet to lose the flab and now I'm doing the above outlined system. In the meantime I'm finding out about new systems, and the systems which I think may benefit me could be some of the powerlifting systems which I talked about before.
> 
> Well, @simonthepieman - you're obviously a bright guy. How does my current system look to you?


what are your goals?


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## Bull Terrier

simonthepieman said:


> what are your goals?


I guess that I'm more strength-orientated (not that I am actually very strong unfortunately) rather than size. Particularly my strength on the basic lifts.

Whilst I'm not particularly size-orientated, as stated, I do nevertheless want to have low bodyfat. I got my bodyfat down briefly probably to 10% mark but it's headed north again inevitably since I'm trying to gain muscle at the moment rather than diet down.

I know exactly what I need to do to diet down when I do decide that it is the right time for it.


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## simonthepieman

Bull Terrier said:


> I guess that I'm more strength-orientated (not that I am actually very strong unfortunately) rather than size. Particularly my strength on the basic lifts.
> 
> Whilst I'm not particularly size-orientated, as stated, I do nevertheless want to have low bodyfat. I got my bodyfat down briefly probably to 10% mark but it's headed north again inevitably since I'm trying to gain muscle at the moment rather than diet down.
> 
> I know exactly what I need to do to diet down when I do decide that it is the right time for it.


what are your lifting stats?


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## Bull Terrier

simonthepieman said:


> what are your lifting stats?


Here are my current stats:

Bench press: 92kg for 6 reps

Deadlift: 112kg for 15 reps

Squat: too s.hite to mention..

Seated military press: 52kg for 14 reps

Lying tricep extensions: 42kg for 14 reps

Although it could perhaps appear to be the contrary, I actually normally prefer lower reps, in the 6-10 range. At the moment, for no particular reason, I've been doing somewhat higher reps on some of the exercises, although very likely I'll start going lower because I feel that it works better for me. The only exercise where perhaps I prefer to stay on higher reps is deadlift.

If not already clear, I don't use gear.


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## simonthepieman

Bull Terrier said:


> Here are my current stats:
> 
> Bench press: 92kg for 6 reps
> 
> Deadlift: 112kg for 15 reps
> 
> Squat: too s.hite to mention..
> 
> Seated military press: 52kg for 14 reps
> 
> Lying tricep extensions: 42kg for 14 reps
> 
> Although it could perhaps appear to be the contrary, I actually normally prefer lower reps, in the 6-10 range. At the moment, for no particular reason, I've been doing somewhat higher reps on some of the exercises, although very likely I'll start going lower because I feel that it works better for me. The only exercise where perhaps I prefer to stay on higher reps is deadlift.
> 
> If not already clear, I don't use gear.


If those are your stats and strength is your goal then I think sheiko would be too unnecessary and overkill.

You woul make better gains on madcow intermediate and a solid diet. Or maybe Texas method.

If you are getting bored. Play around with accessory stuff on Monday's and Friday's but keep weds light


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## Bull Terrier

Doing 5 sets of 5 reps would be way too much for my body's recuperative abilities.

Furthermore I kind of need frequent deloads otherwise - again - I burn out.

Hence why I've designed my current training model to accomodate my particular requirements, at least as I see them.


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## simonthepieman

Bull Terrier said:


> Doing 5 sets of 5 reps would be way too much for my body's recuperative abilities.
> 
> Furthermore I kind of need frequent deloads otherwise - again - I burn out.
> 
> Hence why I've designed my current training model to accomodate my particular requirements, at least as I see them.


I suggest you read about the routine before dismissing it.

It's not 5x5 of a flat weight


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## Bull Terrier

dutch_scott said:


> 5 x 5 would be too much? How?!
> 
> I agree with Simon totally
> 
> I think your routine has no actual thought into fibre types , real linear progression or exercise selection
> 
> IMO


I'm sorry Scott, but I'm really not following you here..

Is linear progression not about increasing the weight used for the same amount of reps or else increasing reps for the same amount of reps? If you agree on this definition, then yes - I am slowly progressing.

I had a year in which I had to diet down hard and it was kind of difficult to put on any size/strength in this period. Now that I'm decently lean I'm attempting to increase size/strength.

Regarding exercise selection - I have a hard time understanding how doing basic compound movements as I do like bench press, squats, deadlifts, etc. (refer to previous post) can possibly be construed by yourself as lacking "actual thought in exercise selection" as you stated..

I'm hesitant to add in too many accessory movements because I know from long experience that it hurts my progress in the big lifts which I consider more important. I wouldn't wish to speak for others, but for me this is the way it is.

Like I said in previous posts, as long as my routine gives me tangible results, i.e. the lifts are going up, I see no reason to change anything. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

But - of course - when gains dry up, then I'll rethink my strategy and try something else.


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## simonthepieman

a little bump, a few people have asked about stuff like this recently


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## simonthepieman

Bump


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## nWo

Long story short, after your newb gains have slowed down, do upper/lower


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## ancient_loyal

Quick question for you guys, when doing an upper/lower as below (copied from a routine by @simonthepieman). I wonder if I could ask a few, potentially stupid questions?


How do you choose what weight to use? I know training to failure isn't recommended so for Bench 3x5 would you choose something you can comfortably get 5 reps out of? 6 at a push?

Do you keep the weight the same? e.g. Bench 3x5 would be 3 sets of 90kg x 5 reps or would you increase the weight per set?

I assume you do warm up exercises? If so how many?

Is it possible to train more than 4 times a week if you feel up to it?

Can you substitute pull ups for another exercise, I'm only just able to do chin ups.


Upper 1

Bench 3 x 5

Row 3 x 5

Dips 4 x 10

Pull ups BW 4 x F

optional bi's & Side raises

Lower 1

Squat 3 x 5

SLDLs 4 x 10

Lunges 2 x 8 el

optional calves

Upper 2

Decline bench 3 x 5

t-rows 3 x 5

OHP 4 x 10

Chins 4 x 10

optional - triceps & facepulls

Lower 2

Deadlifts 3 x 5

front squats 4 x 10

Glute ham raise or pull throughs or hamstring curls 2 x 8

optional - calves

Thanks!


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