# Drinking alcohol while on cycle - how bad is it for you?



## strivingtobebig (Dec 12, 2013)

Obviously i know a lot of people will say you shouldnt drink at all while on cycle - but how bad is it for you?

Ill probably get slated and people will say i couldnt be serious about bodybuilding if i choose to drink however Im not yet a competing bodybuilder, so i feel like im quite entitled to go out on a saturday nite like any normal 26 year old. Saturday is usually the only day i drink - some times i drink every saturday and sometimes i leave it a few weeks.

I did have a 3 day stag do last week, and i mean i felt like utter crap for three days during it. My face was pretty red, eyes a bit bloodshocked, sore head - all the signs of high blood pressure.

Is drinking while on gear seriously dangerous? Or is it ok to go out once a week and drink (a binge) while on cycle?


----------



## stuey99 (Nov 30, 2012)

strivingtobebig said:


> Obviously i know a lot of people will say you shouldnt drink at all while on cycle - but how bad is it for you?
> 
> Ill probably get slated and people will say i couldnt be serious about bodybuilding if i choose to drink however Im not yet a competing bodybuilder, so i feel like im quite entitled to go out on a saturday nite like any normal 26 year old. Saturday is usually the only day i drink - some times i drink every saturday and sometimes i leave it a few weeks.
> 
> ...


I was all ready to say ignore people who say don't have a drink on cycle...until the words "binge", "3 day stag do" and "every Friday night" crept intro your post. No it won't kill you but drinking like that is just wasting your cycle IMO.


----------



## BettySwallocks (Aug 1, 2012)

I've done it many a time before and lived to tell the tale, however, and this is for me personally, 1 night on the booze seems to put me a week back on training and gains.


----------



## Guest (Mar 12, 2014)

On orals I get the most insane hangover known to man. Bed ridden for 24 hours!

Take into consideration the fact your body is working a lot harder than it would be natty, so feed it accordingly. Plenty of nutrition and plenty of hydration. It's not healthy but it won't kill you


----------



## Matthew5 (Mar 17, 2011)

I would say the odd drink here and there isn't an issue but going out every week is just pointless!


----------



## strivingtobebig (Dec 12, 2013)

stuey99 said:


> I was all ready to say ignore people who say don't have a drink on cycle...until the words "binge", "3 day stag do" and "every Friday night" crept intro your post. No it won't kill you but drinking like that is just wasting your cycle IMO.


the stag do was the only one i have this year so thats that over with. But yes i understand drinking every week will be detrimental to my gains so ill cut it back to every 2-3 weeks now.


----------



## DELxxxBOY (Oct 6, 2011)

MattTwoWheels said:


> On orals I get the most insane hangover known to man. Bed ridden for 24 hours!
> 
> Take into consideration the fact your body is working a lot harder than it would be natty, so feed it accordingly. Plenty of nutrition and plenty of hydration. It's not healthy but it won't kill you


Iv noticed this! On tbol at min 100mg per day abd test 650 pw, went out last friday with my gf for food and had maybe 5-6 vodkas n couple beers... I was fkin ill the next 2 days missed gym ate crap all weekend still wasnt 100% on the monday :-( stayin clear alltogether til end of cycle now..


----------



## Deadcalm (Aug 9, 2013)

It depends what you're taking. You shouldn't binge drink on orals because they're liver toxic. However, if it's something like a test only cycle, then you'll be fine.

Personally in my last cycle and went out and got ****ed almost every Saturday for the 12 weeks. I was training right and eating right for 6 of the 7 days per week, and I was usually fully fresh and fine again by Monday when I was back in training. Maybe it did hinder my gains a bit, but I was still getting bigger and stronger every week.

The ironic benefit of test cycles is that testosterone makes you a lot more confident with a higher sense of wellbeing, so it becomes a lot more tempting to go out, get ****ed and have an awesome time with test on your side.

You only live once and you're only young once, so do whatever you want to do but do it in moderation and enjoy yourself. I wouldn't want to be one of those people who never went out when I was younger because I was so focused on training, and then by the time I was 40 I regretted it because I didn't feel like I'd fully enjoyed my youth and made the most of it.


----------



## Tekken (Feb 8, 2014)

its not gonna kill you, but its not optimal especially on orals. i dont drink myself, but thats personal choice for me


----------



## SwAn1 (Jun 4, 2012)

It WILL kill you, no ifs no buts you will die.


----------



## Deadcalm (Aug 9, 2013)

FYI you SHOULD NOT drink heavily on orals.

Most injectables don't do anything to the liver or kidneys, but orals can put great stress on the liver even without alcohol.

Combine the two together long-term and you could end up in hospital.


----------



## gearchange (Mar 19, 2010)

If you think your ok to drink every week or even go out binging your a nut case..I thought as you once .I was traning hard and drinking heavily at weekends ,It never affected my gains or strength or so I thought ..I ended up in hospital for a week almost died..So do not think in any way it's "OK" to drink on a cycle.I do not give a flying that others say "yeah its cool wont kill you" because disrespect your body long enough and it will tell you to feck off big time.


----------



## Deadcalm (Aug 9, 2013)

gearchange said:


> If you think your ok to drink every week or even go out binging your a nut case..I thought as you once .I was traning hard and drinking heavily at weekends ,It never affected my gains or strength or so I thought ..I ended up in hospital for a week almost died..So do not think in any way it's "OK" to drink on a cycle.I do not give a flying that others say "yeah its cool wont kill you" because disrespect your body long enough and it will tell you to feck off big time.


What steroids where you taking where once a week binge drinking ended up almost killing you?


----------



## kuju (Sep 15, 2010)

gearchange said:


> If you think your ok to drink every week or even go out binging your a nut case..I thought as you once .I was traning hard and drinking heavily at weekends ,It never affected my gains or strength or so I thought ..I ended up in hospital for a week almost died..So do not think in any way it's "OK" to drink on a cycle.I do not give a flying that others say "yeah its cool wont kill you" because disrespect your body long enough and it will tell you to feck off big time.


This^^

Even if you're not using orals, binge drinking is dangerous and damaging. End of. You may get away with it for a while....it may be a very long while....but it's still damaging you and it will bite your ass at some point.


----------



## gearchange (Mar 19, 2010)

Deadcalm said:


> What steroids where you taking where once a week binge drinking ended up almost killing you?


Oxy's ,tren and test..Point is i had done it so many times before I thought it would be ok,but the last time was not..The doctor said if I had not come in I would not be here today,my liver was fooked,It could not process the alcohol and the drugs together. Binging is suicide in my book.


----------



## Deadcalm (Aug 9, 2013)

kuju said:


> This^^
> 
> Even if you're not using orals, binge drinking is dangerous and damaging. End of. You may get away with it for a while....it may be a very long while....but it's still damaging you and it will bite your ass at some point.


Show me a single example of where someone has lasting health implications from getting drunk once a week.

Once again, most of this stuff is just scaremongering based on hear-say.

If you get drunk every day then it's obviously going to damage your body eventually, but anyone who states that getting drunk once a week is going to have long-term health problems is purely speculating.

Young people shouldn't be scared away from enjoying themselves. It's obviously wise to taper down as you get older, but people in their 20's should enjoy themselves instead of being overly scared.


----------



## Deadcalm (Aug 9, 2013)

gearchange said:


> Oxy's ,tren and test..Point is i had done it so many times before I thought it would be ok,but the last time was not..The doctor said if I had not come in I would not be here today,my liver was fooked,It could not process the alcohol and the drugs together. Binging is suicide in my book.


Well sorry but that's just an extremely, extremely stupid thing to do.

Once again, DO NOT TAKE ORAL STEROIDS WITH ALCOHOL.

Normal long-ester steroids cause absolutely no stress on the liver or kidneys in respectable doses. They really have nothing to do with metabolising steroids in that format.

ANY form of oral steroid is alpha alkylated to survive a first-pass through the liver. However, this makes the steroid liver toxic due to a restriction of bile flow and a build-up of toxins in the liver.

Anadrol is particularly toxic to the liver, so if you pop those and binge drink long-term at the same time then you're on the path to death.

My point here is that you can't group all the steroids together. Injectable long-ester steroids like test are going to cause no stress on the liver and really don't interact with alcohol, but any type of oral steroids will.

You're right to suggest that people shouldn't take oral steroids and drink at the same time as they are the liver toxic ones. However, people on injectables like test don't really have anything to fear by getting drunk once a week. They are different.


----------



## gearchange (Mar 19, 2010)

Deadcalm said:


> Well sorry but that's just an extremely, extremely stupid thing to do.
> 
> Once again, DO NOT TAKE ORAL STEROIDS WITH ALCOHOL.
> 
> ...


I disagree..If you can damage your live without steroids and just alcohol how is your statement valid.

Moderate drinking still gives you a fatty liver,drinking at weekends is going to lead to excessive alcohol intake..Dont add to the liver stress,and yes long estered test does that as well..It may not kill you but it affects more than the liver when mixed with alcohol over time..Dont make others think otherwise.


----------



## gearchange (Mar 19, 2010)

Deadcalm said:


> Well sorry but that's just an extremely, extremely stupid thing to do.
> 
> Once again, DO NOT TAKE ORAL STEROIDS WITH ALCOHOL.
> 
> ...


Deadcalm.

I am at a loose end with what your saying mate,how the hell does test not affect the liver ?????why the **** do we have our bloods done,what the hell are elevated liver enzymes when on test ..I think you need to rethink what your on about.


----------



## Deadcalm (Aug 9, 2013)

gearchange said:


> Deadcalm.
> 
> I am at a loose end with what your saying mate,how the hell does test not affect the liver ?????why the **** do we have our bloods done,what the hell are elevated liver enzymes when on test ..I think you need to rethink what your on about.


Liver enzymes are not elevated on long-ester testosterone injections. I have no idea where you've got that from.

Why would they be? Testosterone is injected directly into the body and then de-esterified into usable testosterone. The liver plays no part in that process. It doesn't process the testosterone or do anything with it. It's a completely different mechanism which happens outside of the liver.

The only situation where you should get liver enzyme values checked is when you take oral steroids, as they are alpha alkylated to survive first-pass through the liver and therefore liver toxic. If you inject steroids IM then they bypass the liver. If you eat and digest them, then they need to go through the liver to get into the blood stream. That's why long-ester injectable steroids are not liver toxic whilst oral steroids are.


----------



## kuju (Sep 15, 2010)

Deadcalm said:


> Show me a single example of where someone has lasting health implications from getting drunk once a week.
> 
> Once again, most of this stuff is just scaremongering based on hear-say.
> 
> ...


Depends how you define "getting drunk". If we're tallking about serious binge drinking then no...it isn't scare mongering and it is naive at best to say it is. Alcohol is directly damaging to liver cells for starters and taking in massive amounts in a short space of time overwhelms the system compared to drinking a similar amount of a much longer period. You know when people drink so much they throw up[? That's alcoholic poisoning. Why do you think it's called inTOXICation? It means being poisoned by a drug or other substance. It is not pure speculation; the body of evidence is substantial and growing....but right now I don;t have time to go off googling or pubmeding articles to back up something that is so blatantly obvious.

THis is of course..ignoring the other possible effects of binge drinking. Over 70% of weekend A&E admissions are a direct result of alcohol consumption. I'm not in any way anti-alcohol and if people want to get off their faces...so be it...it's their body they are entitled to do that..as long as, of course, that action doesn't then impact negatively on others - ie: drink driving, bar fights, domestic violence or the huge cost to the NHS that we all pay for. But again - I have no issue if people want to drink themselves into the gutter...I can think of better ways to enjoy your time but hey...each to their own.

But binge drinking is a very unhelathy practice; it puts a huge strain on the body because the body simply cannot cope with that quantity of alcohol in that space of time. Given that the body when on cycle is already under some strain - it seems foolish to then add to it ....especially as the idea behind cycling is to improve the body....

Then you have all the rubbish calories that spike blood sugar and are likely to end up as body fat.

Seems to me that binge drinking on a cycle goes against the point of teh cycle, increases the risk of negative effects and ultimately has no benefit whatsoever.

And I say that as someone who used to binge drink.....


----------



## gearchange (Mar 19, 2010)

Deadcalm said:


> Liver enzymes are not elevated on long-ester testosterone injections. I have no idea where you've got that from.
> 
> Why would they be? Testosterone is injected directly into the body and then de-esterified into usable testosterone. The liver plays no part in that process. It doesn't process the testosterone or do anything with it. It's a completely different mechanism which happens outside of the liver.
> 
> T*he only situation where you should get liver enzyme values checked is when you take oral steroids, as they are alpha alkylated to survive first-pass through the liver and therefore liver toxic. If you inject steroids IM then they bypass the liver. If you eat and digest them, then they need to go through the liver to get into the blood stream. That's why long-ester injectable steroids are not liver toxic whilst oral steroids are.*


So your saying,long ester steroids are not toxic at all in any way to the liver ?


----------



## kuju (Sep 15, 2010)

Deadcalm said:


> Liver enzymes are not elevated on long-ester testosterone injections. I have no idea where you've got that from.
> 
> Why would they be? Testosterone is injected directly into the body and then de-esterified into usable testosterone. The liver plays no part in that process. It doesn't process the testosterone or do anything with it. It's a completely different mechanism which happens outside of the liver.
> 
> The only situation where you should get liver enzyme values checked is when you take oral steroids, as they are alpha alkylated to survive first-pass through the liver and therefore liver toxic. If you inject steroids IM then they bypass the liver. If you eat and digest them, then they need to go through the liver to get into the blood stream. That's why long-ester injectable steroids are not liver toxic whilst oral steroids are.


How does something in the blood stream bypass the liver?

Plus - de-seterified anabolic steroids are metabolised in teh liver. Yes there is a significantly reduced impact compared to orals...no question....but there is still some impact.


----------



## Deadcalm (Aug 9, 2013)

kuju said:


> Depends how you define "getting drunk". If we're tallking about serious binge drinking then no...it isn't scare mongering and it is naive at best to say it is. Alcohol is directly damaging to liver cells for starters and taking in massive amounts in a short space of time overwhelms the system compared to drinking a similar amount of a much longer period. You know when people drink so much they throw up[? That's alcoholic poisoning. Why do you think it's called inTOXICation? It means being poisoned by a drug or other substance. It is not pure speculation; the body of evidence is substantial and growing....but right now I don;t have time to go off googling or pubmeding articles to back up something that is so blatantly obvious.
> 
> THis is of course..ignoring the other possible effects of binge drinking. Over 70% of weekend A&E admissions are a direct result of alcohol consumption. I'm not in any way anti-alcohol and if people want to get off their faces...so be it...it's their body they are entitled to do that..as long as, of course, that action doesn't then impact negatively on others - ie: drink driving, bar fights, domestic violence or the huge cost to the NHS that we all pay for. But again - I have no issue if people want to drink themselves into the gutter...I can think of better ways to enjoy your time but hey...each to their own.
> 
> ...


You replied to gearchange's post where he said getting drunk once a week is binge drinking. I disagree with that.

If you mean binge drinking where someone gets so drunk that they throw up and are unconscious then that's obviously not good, but who the hell does that every week? Why would you?

However, what I'm talking about is getting drunk once a week, so you're actually pretty drunk, but still conscious and capable of functioning reasonably normal.

And your claim that "drinking so much that people throw up is alcohol poisoning" is wrong. If that was the case, then someone who eats so much food that they throw up must have food poisoning. Throwing up is simply an evolutionary response where the body doesn't like how something has made it feel and then attempts to get rid of anything in the stomach to remove any more of the offending substance, as the body knows the oral route as the only form of ingestion. That does not go hand in hand with acute alcohol poisoning, which has a very specific MOA in the body.


----------



## Deadcalm (Aug 9, 2013)

gearchange said:


> So your saying,long ester steroids are not toxic at all in any way to the liver ?


No they aren't, unless you take something stupid like 100g of test where the benzyl alcohol in the oil will reach toxic levels.


----------



## gearchange (Mar 19, 2010)

Deadcalm said:


> No they aren't, unless you take something stupid like 100g of test where the benzyl alcohol in the oil will reach toxic levels.


The severity of liver injury due to anabolic steroids ranges from minor, transient serum enzyme elevations to profound and prolonged cholestasis, as well as hepatic peliosis and benign and malignant liver tumors. The first priority in management should be stopping the androgenic steroid. Unfortunately, athletes and body builders may resist this recommendation. Merely decreasing the dose of androgenic steroid or switching to another formulation is not appropriate and should be specifically discouraged.

Representative androgenic steroids include the following: danazol, fluoxymesterone, methandienone, methenolone, methyltestosterone, nandrolone, norethandrolone, oxandrolone, oxymetholone, stanozolol, testosterone (cypionate, enanthate, propionate).

I have quoted this to shut you up from talking nonsense.


----------



## Deadcalm (Aug 9, 2013)

kuju said:


> How does something in the blood stream bypass the liver?
> 
> Plus - de-seterified anabolic steroids are metabolised in teh liver. Yes there is a significantly reduced impact compared to orals...no question....but there is still some impact.


No they aren't. You're making things up without zero scientific knowledge of how they work.

Estered steroids make a deposit in the muscle tissue with low water solubility, so they are very gradually picked up by the blood and enter the blood stream.

Once in the blood stream, the esterase enzymes naturally found inside the blood clave off the ester chain, therefore making the steroid biologically active again so it can bind to the androgen receptor.

The entire process happens inside the blood stream with enzymes already in the blood stream. The liver is not involved in this process. It's therefore impossible for long-ester test to be hepatoxic at safe dosages (i.e. not stupid amounts).

Once again, as with all substances in this world, it isn't the substance itself which makes it toxic, it's only the dosage.


----------



## stuey99 (Nov 30, 2012)

gearchange said:


> Deadcalm.
> 
> I am at a loose end with what your saying mate,how the hell does test not affect the liver ?????why the **** do we have our bloods done,what the hell are elevated liver enzymes when on test ..I think you need to rethink what your on about.


He's actually right on this one mate. I don't agree with drinking heavily on a regular basis while on cycle but health wise drinking while on test shouldn't cause any health problems.


----------



## Deadcalm (Aug 9, 2013)

gearchange said:


> The severity of liver injury due to anabolic steroids ranges from minor, transient serum enzyme elevations to profound and prolonged cholestasis, as well as hepatic peliosis and benign and malignant liver tumors. The first priority in management should be stopping the androgenic steroid. Unfortunately, athletes and body builders may resist this recommendation. Merely decreasing the dose of androgenic steroid or switching to another formulation is not appropriate and should be specifically discouraged.
> 
> Representative androgenic steroids include the following: danazol, fluoxymesterone, methandienone, methenolone, methyltestosterone, nandrolone, norethandrolone, oxandrolone, oxymetholone, stanozolol, testosterone (cypionate, enanthate, propionate).
> 
> I have quoted this to shut you up from talking nonsense.


Oh wow, you've quoted a random website written by a random person with absolutely no clinical facts or studies to back it up. You must be right.

It's clear you have absolutely no idea of the mechanism of action of these steroids, and if you knew how they biologically work, you could see quite clearly that they are not going to be hepatoxic or cause any issues at reasonable amounts. Steroids aren't black magic. There's clear cause and effect due to the MOA.

People on oral steroids should never drink alcohol as they are directly hepatoxic. However, people on injectable test only cycles really have absolutely nothing to worry about if they want to get drunk every Saturday.

I respect that you've probably been doing steroid cycles for a lot of years and know a lot about their effects, but that doesn't mean that you've got any knowledge of the biological processes.


----------



## kuju (Sep 15, 2010)

Deadcalm said:


> You replied to gearchange's post where he said getting drunk once a week is binge drinking. I disagree with that.
> 
> If you mean binge drinking where someone gets so drunk that they throw up and are unconscious then that's obviously not good, but who the hell does that every week? Why would you?
> 
> ...


I replied to a post where he says himself that he binges once a week.....his words..not mine. If he'd just said he got a bit merry once a week I would have replied differently. He says he binges.

And no - my claim about people throwing up after excessive alcohol being the result of alcohol poisoning is not wrong - and your example of excessive food intake = food poisoning is facile and ridiculous. Alcohol is treated as a posion by the body once it gets to certain levels. Take in too much, too quickly and you poison the body,. This isn't conjecture or speculation or scare mongering - it is a simple fact. Bearing in mind i've worked in substance use research for the best part of a decade I think i've got a pretty good handle on how the body handles drugs, including alcohol.

Eating to the point of throwing up is..exactly as you say pretty much...the body getting rid of excess. It is not teh same as alcohol. Not even close. And where did I state *acute* alcoholic poisoning? It is poisoning....it is not acute...but it is still poisoning. Acute poisoning is used to describe the point where people effectively put themselves in a coma. Your body can only handle one unit of alcohol per hour. More than that becomes problematic. Significantly more than that becomes dangerous and poisons the system.

Look.....this is a pointless debate. You said yourself...who binge drinks every week. The answer...... gearchanger apparently. Hence the answer to his question.


----------



## gearchange (Mar 19, 2010)

Deadcalm said:


> Oh wow, you've quoted a random website written by a random person with absolutely no clinical facts or studies to back it up. You must be right.
> 
> It's clear you have absolutely no idea of the mechanism of action of these steroids, and if you knew how they biologically work, you could see quite clearly that they are not going to be hepatoxic or cause any issues at reasonable amounts. Steroids aren't black magic. There's clear cause and effect due to the MOA.
> 
> ...


I am getting tired of this..bottom line is long ester or short they have a negative effect on the liver..You are completely and utterly wrong in what you say

I have had bloods done on cycle and off and there is a marked difference ..that includes 14 weeks of test undecanoate (long ester) so do not keep rattling on about long esters are not toxic..FFS we would all be on them without a break if that was true ..I just wish @ewen was here to stop this rubbish.


----------



## kuju (Sep 15, 2010)

Deadcalm said:


> No they aren't. You're making things up without zero scientific knowledge of how they work.
> 
> Estered steroids make a deposit in the muscle tissue with low water solubility, so they are very gradually picked up by the blood and enter the blood stream.
> 
> ...


I'm a researcher in human enhancement drugs.

I didn't say the liver de-esterifies them...I said it metabolises the free'd up anabolic steroid. WHich it does. Why do you think oral steroids are methylated? Because if you don't methylate them the liver metabolises them. Hence....the liver metabolises de=esterified anabolic steroids.

You are absolutely right abotu how esterified steroids are de-esterified. Absolutely bang on. My point was that they are then...in the blood stream. The liver has one of the richest blood supplies in the body. It is absolutely integral to the role of hormones in the body...many hormones are created there, soem are modified there and some are metabolised into other things. Or do you believe that steroids in your blood simply bypass teh liver completely? In which case...explain by what mechanism they do that.

Edit - you really have to stop making up things I've said. I didn't claim injectable steroids were hepatoxic...I am merely pointing out that they do, absolutely, interact with the liver. In a number of different ways.

As a change of tack...because I'm really not interested in online arguments..... explin why LFT values are frequently raised on injectable only cycles and then come down at the end of or after the cycle. (Which takes away the explanation that it is purely due to the training)


----------



## Deadcalm (Aug 9, 2013)

kuju said:


> Look.....this is a pointless debate. You said yourself...who binge drinks every week. The answer...... gearchanger apparently. Hence the answer to his question.


I agree. It basically boils down to individual definitions of when someone crosses the point of poisoning via non-poisoning, and that's fairly subjective.

Binge drinking is also highly subjective. I can get merrily drunk once a week and some people would consider that binge drinking, whereas I would consider it truly binge drinking when someone ends up unconscious and throwing up.

Either way, there are scenarios where you can take certain types of steroids, and get drunk once a week, and still cause no lasting damage. It all depends on the types of steroids used and the amount of alcohol.


----------



## Deadcalm (Aug 9, 2013)

gearchange said:


> I am getting tired of this..bottom line is long ester or short they have a negative effect on the liver..You are completely and utterly wrong in what you say
> 
> I have had bloods done on cycle and off and there is a marked difference ..that includes 14 weeks of test undecanoate (long ester) so do not keep rattling on about long esters are not toxic..FFS we would all be on them without a break if that was true ..I just wish @ewen was here to stop this rubbish.


I'm afraid you are wrong. I'm supporting what I say with a clear description of exactly how the body works. You are not. You're just plucking your ideas out of thin air with seemingly zero scientific knowledge.

People only take breaks because test can cause other issues relating to high blood pressure and other things. However, these side effects are not related to hepatoxicity at all. Anyone who is taking a break from long-ester test cycles because they want to give their liver a rest is completely wasting their time. Their liver has nothing to do with the process of it when dosages are kept at reasonable amounts.


----------



## MRSTRONG (Apr 18, 2009)

Deadcalm said:


> *Liver enzymes are not elevated on long-ester testosterone injections. I have no idea where you've got that from*.
> 
> Why would they be? Testosterone is injected directly into the body and then de-esterified into usable testosterone. The liver plays no part in that process. It doesn't process the testosterone or do anything with it. It's a completely different mechanism which happens outside of the liver.
> 
> The only situation where you should get liver enzyme values checked is when you take oral steroids, as they are alpha alkylated to survive first-pass through the liver and therefore liver toxic. If you inject steroids IM then they bypass the liver. If you eat and digest them, then they need to go through the liver to get into the blood stream. *That's why long-ester injectable steroids are not liver toxic* whilst oral steroids are.


two bits in bold ....

Liver problems

Benign and malignant hepatic tumors, intrahepatic cholestasis, hepatotoxicity, and liver failure have been reported with testosterone replacement therapy.297,298 These unfavorable hepatic effects do not appear to be associated with transdermal or intramuscular injections. For this reason the oral forms of testosterone, with the exception of testosterone undecanoate, are discouraged. Other liver abnormalities associated with TRT include Peliosis hepatis, hepatocellular adenoma, and carcinoma.299

taken from ....

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2701485/

even at TRT dose bad sh1t happens .


----------



## Boshlop (Apr 1, 2012)

its not gonna kill you, but why take sumint to make yourself look beter then think oh ill just drink anyways, just my opinion on it but if you start a cycle be man enough to say no to drink and actually be strict at sumint for a while. loads of ppl say its not like im trying to compete, but you are still taking gear so act like you are on sumint rather serious and dont drink, its not like 15 weeks of no drink ruins all social life and your suddenly alone, mini rant over. when you decide for gear you decide to take it over all of the **** you normally put in your body


----------



## gearchange (Mar 19, 2010)

ewen said:


> two bits in bold ....
> 
> Liver problems
> 
> ...


Thank christ ,I thought I was going mad.


----------



## Deadcalm (Aug 9, 2013)

kuju said:


> I'm a researcher in human enhancement drugs.
> 
> I didn't say the liver de-esterifies them...I said it metabolises the free'd up anabolic steroid. WHich it does. Why do you think oral steroids are methylated? Because if you don't methylate them the liver metabolises them. Hence....the liver metabolises de=esterified anabolic steroids.
> 
> ...


I'm not sure how you can be a researcher in human enhancement drugs when you don't seem to know how it works from what you've said.

Why would the liver metabolise testosterone? Once the ester is removed it's identical to natural testosterone already in the blood stream. It simply floats freely in the blood stream and attaches to androgen receptors. The liver never gets involved.

Oral steroids are a different story. They enter the body through the digestive system and must therefore survive a pass through the liver to get into the blood stream (a defensive mechanism of the body). Through this path, the liver tries to metabolise it, but the methylation prevents that, thereby causing a reduction in bile flow and an elevation in liver enzyme concentrations.

If you inject the steroid, like testosterone, it goes directly in the blood and never has to deal with the liver. If what you said is true, then estered testosterone, once de-esterified in the blood stream by the free-floating enzymes, would then be metabolised and destroyed by the liver before it has a chance to bind to androgen receptors in the muscles, so how would it ever work?


----------



## Deadcalm (Aug 9, 2013)

ewen said:


> two bits in bold ....
> 
> Liver problems
> 
> ...


Uhm, you've just proven me right?



> Benign and malignant hepatic tumors, intrahepatic cholestasis, hepatotoxicity, and liver failure have been reported with testosterone replacement therapy.297,298 *These unfavorable hepatic effects do not appear to be associated with transdermal or intramuscular injections*. For this reason the oral forms of testosterone, with the exception of testosterone undecanoate, are discouraged. Other liver abnormalities associated with TRT include Peliosis hepatis, hepatocellular adenoma, and carcinoma.299


I've always agreed that oral steroids are liver toxic. What I'm saying is that IM injections of long-ester testosterone are not, and therefore hepatoxicity is never an issue.


----------



## MRSTRONG (Apr 18, 2009)

Deadcalm said:


> Uhm, you've just proven me right?
> 
> I've always agreed that oral steroids are liver toxic. What I'm saying is that IM injections of long-ester testosterone are not, and therefore hepatoxicity is never an issue.


notice the `with the exception of testosterone undecanoate` which is what the TRT injection ester is and the study based on .

EDIT undec ester is one of the longest and is the exception which proves the point that long ester gear is bad for liver values .


----------



## sigarner (Mar 26, 2013)

My first cycle I drank all the time. I've just finished my Var cycle and I went out on 2 nights out during 8 weeks (1 for my birthday and 1 for a mates burthday). Other than that I didn't touch alcohol and I firmly believe it's made this cycle much better.


----------



## Deadcalm (Aug 9, 2013)

ewen said:


> notice the `with the exception of testosterone undecanoate` which is what the TRT injection ester is and the study based on .
> 
> EDIT undec ester is one of the longest and is the exception which proves the point that long ester gear is bad for liver values .


It isn't talking about injectable test undecanoate. It's talking about the oral version. Read what it said:



> For this reason the oral forms of testosterone, with the exception of testosterone undecanoate, are discouraged.


It means the oral forms of testosterone, with the exception of oral test undecanoate, are discouraged.

If it means the injectable version, then why would it say "oral forms of testosterone, with the exception of injectable test undecanoate, are discouraged"? That makes no sense.


----------



## MRSTRONG (Apr 18, 2009)

Deadcalm said:


> It isn't talking about injectable test undecanoate. It's talking about the oral version. Read what it said:
> 
> It means the oral forms of testosterone, with the exception of oral test undecanoate, are discouraged.
> 
> If it means the injectable version, then why would it say "oral forms of testosterone, with the exception of injectable test undecanoate, are discouraged"? That makes no sense.


could be right , i forgot about Andriol .

it is still a big claim to say any steroid of any ester/dose will not raise liver values or indeed any other values , and even dafter to argue over it for so long .

short esters cycles have a lesser impact in general , and even TRT dose for a long duration is not without risk , actually i bet any TRT users on here have raised liver values .


----------



## gearchange (Mar 19, 2010)

ewen said:


> could be right , i forgot about Andriol .
> 
> it is still a big claim to say any steroid of any ester/dose will not raise liver values or indeed any other values , and even dafter to argue over it for so long .
> 
> short esters cycles have a lesser impact in general , and even TRT dose for a long duration is not without risk , actually i bet any TRT users on here have raised liver values .


They do...The liver will always try to dispose of a compound whether it has missed first pass or not thus raising enzymes.The claim that NO LONG ESTERED STEROID HAS ANY EFFECT is just ridiculous..


----------



## MRSTRONG (Apr 18, 2009)

gearchange said:


> They do...The liver will always try to dispose of a compound whether it has missed first pass or not thus raising enzymes.The claim that NO LONG ESTERED STEROID HAS ANY EFFECT is just ridiculous..


it is a wild claim to make


----------



## Deadcalm (Aug 9, 2013)

ewen said:


> could be right , i forgot about Andriol .
> 
> it is still a big claim to say any steroid of any ester/dose will not raise liver values or indeed any other values , and even dafter to argue over it for so long .
> 
> short esters cycles have a lesser impact in general , and even TRT dose for a long duration is not without risk , actually i bet any TRT users on here have raised liver values .


The reason I claim it is because the mechanism of action doesn't support it. At reasonable doses, there's simply no scientific reason whatsoever why injectable long-ester steroids would cause stress on the liver.

Ironically enough, short ester cycles may actually be liver toxic because oils like test prop contain higher amounts of benzyl alcohol, and when you're injecting that every day or every other day, you're putting a lot of BA directly into your blood stream which can cause liver and kidney toxicity.


----------



## Deadcalm (Aug 9, 2013)

gearchange said:


> They do...The liver will always try to dispose of a compound whether it has missed first pass or not thus raising enzymes.The claim that NO LONG ESTERED STEROID HAS ANY EFFECT is just ridiculous..


There's no compound to dispose of. Once de-esterified testosterone is just testosterone, the same as the natural stuff already in the body. If the liver tries to dispose of testosterone in the blood then it's going to dispose of your natural testosterone as well, therefore tanking your testosterone levels completely, even when not on a cycle. It makes no sense. How or why would the liver attempt to detoxify a natural body hormone?

Testosterone levels in the blood are controlled through SHBG and LH production within the feedback loop of the HPTA, it has absolutely nothing to do with the liver, nevermind causing any stress on it whatsoever.

Unfortunately it seems like I'm debating a topic with someone who clearly has no idea about the science behind how these compounds work. You know fine well that you don't know what you're talking about unless you've read incorrect information, so I don't know why you keep arguing the point. Every biological process you've described is factually wrong and just based on hear-say or speculation.


----------



## MRSTRONG (Apr 18, 2009)

Deadcalm said:


> The reason I claim it is because the mechanism of action doesn't support it. At reasonable doses, there's simply no scientific reason whatsoever why injectable long-ester steroids would cause stress on the liver.
> 
> Ironically enough, short ester cycles may actually be liver toxic because oils like test prop contain higher amounts of benzyl alcohol, and when you're injecting that every day or every other day, you're putting a lot of BA directly into your blood stream which can cause liver and kidney toxicity.


if im honest i could care less , this is my final post in this thread .

bit from the article below ...

Hepatotoxicity

Androgenic and anabolic steroids have been implicated in four distinct forms of liver injury: transient serum enzyme elevations, an acute cholestatic syndrome, chronic vascular injury to the liver (peliosis hepatis) and hepatic tumors including adenomas and hepatocellular carcinoma. These adverse events have been most closely linked with the C-17 alkylated testosterones, although tumors have also been associated with unmodified and esterified testosterone preparations.

heres an article for you ...

http://livertox.nlm.nih.gov/AndrogenicSteroids.htm

TRT users use enough to replace natural and they have raised liver values .

the BA content of prop is the same as 250mg of enth iirc pharma is 5% BA regardless of ester however waterbased vet gear is higher , only difference is injection frequency which would change amount of BA in the body .


----------



## gearchange (Mar 19, 2010)

Deadcalm said:


> There's no compound to dispose of. Once de-esterified testosterone is just testosterone, the same as the natural stuff already in the body. If the liver tries to dispose of testosterone in the blood then it's going to dispose of your natural testosterone as well, therefore tanking your testosterone levels completely, even when not on a cycle. It makes no sense. How or why would the liver attempt to detoxify a natural body hormone?
> 
> Testosterone levels in the blood are controlled through SHBG and LH production within the feedback loop of the HPTA, it has absolutely nothing to do with the liver, nevermind causing any stress on it whatsoever.
> 
> Unfortunately it seems like I'm debating a topic with someone who clearly has no idea about the science behind how these compounds work. You know fine well that you don't know what you're talking about unless you've read incorrect information, so I don't know why you keep arguing the point. Every biological process you've described is factually wrong and just based on hear-say or speculation.


I do not claim to be a scientist,I am ****ing telling you this and no more...MY liver enzymes were raised when I was on undecanoate,whether einstein himself came down and told me thats impossible or not It's what happened..Lets end this here please I have run out of being bothered.


----------



## SK50 (Apr 7, 2013)

Deadcalm is clearly right here IMO

Clean injectable testosterone has no proven significant negative impact on liver function and the study ewen posted holds further testament to this...


----------



## SK50 (Apr 7, 2013)

gearchange said:


> I do not claim to be a scientist,I am ****ing telling you this and no more...MY liver enzymes were raised when I was on undecanoate,whether einstein himself came down and told me thats impossible or not It's what happened..Lets end this here please I have run out of being bothered.


Yeah but one set of results, even if it is your own, cannot prove anything. You need multiple people in controlled studies. There could have been a huge number of factors which influenced your results.

I'm starting to wish I didn't jump in now as it seems like it's getting angry, lol


----------



## Deadcalm (Aug 9, 2013)

SK50 said:


> Deadcalm is clearly right here IMO
> 
> Clean injectable testosterone has no proven significant negative impact on liver function and the study ewen posted holds further testament to this...


Correct.

To sum it up:

Never drink on oral steroids, they are directly hepatoxic and can cause serious damage quickly.

You can get drunk every now and again on IM testosterone cycles. It's not going to cause any additional liver stress compared to the consumption of the alcohol on its own.


----------



## Huntingground (Jan 10, 2010)

I have no studies to back up what I state, just what I have read and tested on myself.

I do not drink on orals. This is common sense. I have, not regularly, and always feel awful next day. I tend to abstain now.

On injectables I drink whenever I want.

I have been B&C for the past 4 years (this is 5th year) and have blood tests, including liver enzymes, kidneys etc and they have always come back in range.

Now, I am not suggesting you should binge drink on injectables. I am stating that you should be sensible but drinking on injectables won't kill you unless you have underlying medical issues.


----------



## Deadcalm (Aug 9, 2013)

gearchange said:


> I do not claim to be a scientist,I am ****ing telling you this and no more...MY liver enzymes were raised when I was on undecanoate,whether einstein himself came down and told me thats impossible or not It's what happened..Lets end this here please I have run out of being bothered.


Unfortunately there are too many variables here for your claim to hold any merit.

The primary issue here is that you claimed only a few pages ago that you nearly died in hospital due to severe liver damage caused by taking oral steroids and drinking alcohol, so you clearly can't be used as an example of a healthy person with no underlying liver issues.

If you had taken orals as a kick-start or at any time during or even around your undecanoate cycle, then they're also going to raise liver values, and when that's compounded with your existing liver damage, it could cause liver enzymes to be raised for months and months.


----------



## gearchange (Mar 19, 2010)

SK50 said:


> Deadcalm is clearly right here IMO
> 
> Clean injectable testosterone has no proven significant negative impact on liver function and the study ewen posted holds further testament to this...


I absolutely hate how this has been twisted around...The statement made was that NO LONG ESTERED INJECTABLE WAS TOXIC.now we are at testosterone

only.? I was going on my merry way until you piped up.


----------



## SK50 (Apr 7, 2013)

gearchange said:


> I absolutely hate how this has been twisted around...The statement made was that NO LONG ESTERED INJECTABLE WAS TOXIC.now we are at testosterone
> 
> only.? I was going on my merry way until you piped up.


Chill... this doesn't have to be anything except healthy debate.

Skimming back on the thread, the argument appears to be around testosterone.

Regardless, to prove the point you would need to post studies which show any such injectables are hepatoxic.

Remember, AAS has been prescribed to millions of people over the years. If hepatoxicity was an issue there would be studies to demonstrate this.

Maybe there are. I have never seen them. Have you?


----------



## Deadcalm (Aug 9, 2013)

gearchange said:


> I absolutely hate how this has been twisted around...The statement made was that NO LONG ESTERED INJECTABLE WAS TOXIC.now we are at testosterone
> 
> only.? I was going on my merry way until you piped up.


There's no evidence that injectable tren is liver toxic either, just for the record.


----------



## gearchange (Mar 19, 2010)

Deadcalm said:


> There's no evidence that injectable tren is liver toxic either, just for the record.


Ok guys ,you are the leading experts on steroids and I cannot argue any more..The fact I am a test dummy and have used for years and I know what I know through experience not some nancyfied book reading..Now that you say tren is not toxic I know your scatty..Goodbye and look forward to debating with you again soon


----------



## Subxessor (Mar 3, 2014)

Abstract

"The effect of the testosterone derivative oxymetholone alone or in combination with the H1receptor antagonist ketotifen, which has recently been shown to block tumour necrosis factor ? (TNF?), on weight gain and performance status in human immunodeficiency virus (HIV) patients with chronic cachexia was evaluated in a 30 week prospective pilot study. Thirty patients were randomly assigned to either oxymetholone monotherapy (n 14) or oxymetholone plus ketotifen (n 16). Patients receiving treatment were compared with a group of thirty untreated matched controls, who met the same inclusion criteria. Body weight and the Karnofsky index, which assessesthe ability to perform activities of daily life, and several quality-of-life variables were measured to evaluate response to therapy. The average weight gain at peak was 8. 2 (SD 6. 2) kg ( + 14. 5 % of body weight at study entry) in the oxymetholone group (P<0·0.001), and 6.1 (SD 4.6) kg (+ 10.9 %) in the combination group (P<0·005), compared with an average weight loss of 1.8 (SD 0.7) kg in the untreated controls. The mean time to peak weight was 196 weeks in the monotherapy group and 20.8 weeks in the combination group. The Karnofsky index improved equally in both groups from 56% before to 67% after 20 weeks of treatment (P< 0·05). The quality of life variables (activities of daily life, and appetite/nutrition) improved in 68 % (P<0·05)and 91%(P< 0·01) of the treated patients respectively. *Oxymetholone was safe and promoted weight gain in cachectic patients with advanced HIV-1 infection*. The addition of ketotifendid not further support weight gain. These results suggest the need for a randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled multicentre trial." .......that was anadrol.....now consider this for a moment.....these are frail Individuals with advanced stage of HIV infection=frail organs..... Imagin that was replaced with alcohol? .......how toxic is alcohol to liver? In comparasion to orals.

Don't drink period with any other drugs in your system..... Regardless of consumption method


----------



## Deadcalm (Aug 9, 2013)

Subxessor said:


> Abstract
> 
> "The effect of the testosterone derivative oxymetholone alone or in combination with the H1receptor antagonist ketotifen, which has recently been shown to block tumour necrosis factor ? (TNF?), on weight gain and performance status in human immunodeficiency virus (HIV) patients with chronic cachexia was evaluated in a 30 week prospective pilot study. Thirty patients were randomly assigned to either oxymetholone monotherapy (n 14) or oxymetholone plus ketotifen (n 16). Patients receiving treatment were compared with a group of thirty untreated matched controls, who met the same inclusion criteria. Body weight and the Karnofsky index, which assessesthe ability to perform activities of daily life, and several quality-of-life variables were measured to evaluate response to therapy. The average weight gain at peak was 8. 2 (SD 6. 2) kg ( + 14. 5 % of body weight at study entry) in the oxymetholone group (P<0·0.001), and 6.1 (SD 4.6) kg (+ 10.9 %) in the combination group (P<0·005), compared with an average weight loss of 1.8 (SD 0.7) kg in the untreated controls. The mean time to peak weight was 196 weeks in the monotherapy group and 20.8 weeks in the combination group. The Karnofsky index improved equally in both groups from 56% before to 67% after 20 weeks of treatment (P< 0·05). The quality of life variables (activities of daily life, and appetite/nutrition) improved in 68 % (P<0·05)and 91%(P< 0·01) of the treated patients respectively. *Oxymetholone was safe and promoted weight gain in cachectic patients with advanced HIV-1 infection*. The addition of ketotifendid not further support weight gain. These results suggest the need for a randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled multicentre trial." .......that was anadrol.....now consider this for a moment.....these are frail Individuals with advanced stage of HIV infection=frail organs..... Imagin that was replaced with alcohol? .......how toxic is alcohol to liver? In comparasion to orals.
> 
> Don't drink period with any other drugs in your system..... Regardless of consumption method


Why are you posting a study about how oxymetholone is safe and promoted weight gain? What's that got to do with anything?


----------



## gearchange (Mar 19, 2010)

Deadcalm said:


> Why are you posting a study about how oxymetholone is safe and promoted weight gain? What's that got to do with anything?


We agree on something YAY !!! :thumb:


----------



## Deadcalm (Aug 9, 2013)

gearchange said:


> Ok guys ,you are the leading experts on steroids and I cannot argue any more..The fact I am a test dummy and have used for years and I know what I know through experience not some nancyfied book reading..Now that you say tren is not toxic I know your scatty..Goodbye and look forward to debating with you again soon


You're a test dummy who has almost died of liver failure from combining oral steroids and drinking and now probably has chronic liver damage as a result. That doesn't really make you a very good test dummy for a broader audience, does it?

And injectable tren is not known to be liver toxic. Again, the MOA doesn't support hepatoxicity. There are plenty of people on the internet who have done 6 month cycles of tren and have liver values well within normal range after having bloods done.

I don't advise debating a point when you're basically pulling all of your theories and beliefs out of thin air. Perhaps you should be more open minded to learning new knowledge even if it goes against what you previously thought. There's no shame in that.


----------



## Subxessor (Mar 3, 2014)

Numerous study suggest alcohol is far more toxic than majority of AAS to the liver. Why combine both?

My point was if one did a similar study with alcohol in place. Which group so likely to suffer liver failure?


----------



## Endur0 (Feb 1, 2014)

strivingtobebig said:


> Obviously i know a lot of people will say you shouldnt drink at all while on cycle - but how bad is it for you?
> 
> Ill probably get slated and people will say i couldnt be serious about bodybuilding if i choose to drink however Im not yet a competing bodybuilder, so i feel like im quite entitled to go out on a saturday nite like any normal 26 year old. Saturday is usually the only day i drink - some times i drink every saturday and sometimes i leave it a few weeks.
> 
> ...


I would say that if you've gone on Cycle regardless of whether it's orals, injectables or fookin skin patches, then you're completely fcking retarded. And by even asking this question, clearly you have no idea what you're doing. My advice would be to stop abusing steroids, stop drinking alcohol and get ya fcking head straight


----------



## gearchange (Mar 19, 2010)

Deadcalm said:


> You're a test dummy who has almost died of liver failure from combining oral steroids and drinking and now probably has chronic liver damage as a result. That doesn't really make you a very good test dummy for a broader audience, does it?
> 
> And injectable tren is not known to be liver toxic. Again, the MOA doesn't support hepatoxicity. There are plenty of people on the internet who have done 6 month cycles of tren and have liver values well within normal range after having bloods done.
> 
> I don't advise debating a point when you're basically pulling all of your theories and beliefs out of thin air. Perhaps you should be more open minded to learning new knowledge even if it goes against what you previously thought. There's no shame in that.


so practical knowledge is irrelevant to you,unless it is a case study your not willing to even say its a possibility ,you say tren is not toxic because you have read it some where..I suggest you go pin some and see for yourself..I hate nerds I really do.disrespecting me like that saying its all out of thin air is childish..Its from practical real life events..I may have got burnt this christmas because I drank to much but up till then all was fine.chances are I was lifting when you were in nappies ,so stop with the slander.


----------



## Deadcalm (Aug 9, 2013)

Subxessor said:


> Numerous study suggest alcohol is far more toxic than majority of AAS to the liver. Why combine both?
> 
> My point was if one did a similar study with alcohol in place. Which group so likely to suffer liver failure?


I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

Alcohol is liver toxic. Injectable steroids in reasonable doses are not. For that reason, you can combine both if you want to drink whilst on an injectable-only cycle. Doing that is no more damaging or toxic than simply drinking the same quantity of alcohol whilst not taking steroids.


----------



## Deadcalm (Aug 9, 2013)

gearchange said:


> so practical knowledge is irrelevant to you,unless it is a case study your not willing to even say its a possibility ,you say tren is not toxic because you have read it some where..I suggest you go pin some and see for yourself..I hate nerds I really do.disrespecting me like that saying its all out of thin air is childish..Its from practical real life events..I may have got burnt this christmas because I drank to much but up till then all was fine.chances are I was lifting when you were in nappies ,so stop with the slander.


What practical knowledge do you have? You told me about an hour ago that you nearly died from liver damage due to combining orals and alcohol. How can we take any anecdotal knowledge from you when you are likely to have chronic liver damage from that which will skew any results you've found?

Tren is not toxic because the way it works is not toxic. The actual biological mechanism does not make it toxic.

As I mentioned before, you could have been taking steroids for decades and know how to use them. Sadly, this may make you believe that you have unwavering scientific knowledge of the biological activities of steroids when you don't.

Just because a Formula 1 driver is good at racing cars, it doesn't mean that he knows how to fix an engine.


----------



## gearchange (Mar 19, 2010)

Deadcalm said:


> What practical knowledge do you have? You told me about an hour ago that you nearly died from liver damage due to combining orals and alcohol. How can we take any anecdotal knowledge from you when you are likely to have chronic liver damage from that which will skew any results you've found?
> 
> Tren is not toxic because the way it works is not toxic. The actual biological mechanism does not make it toxic.
> 
> ...


You are one patronising cvnt now f off and go drink that non toxic tren of yours.


----------



## Subxessor (Mar 3, 2014)

Deadcalm said:


> I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.
> 
> Alcohol is liver toxic. Injectable steroids in reasonable doses are not. For that reason, you can combine both if you want to drink whilst on an injectable-only cycle. Doing that is no more damaging or toxic than simply drinking the same quantity of alcohol whilst not taking steroids.


let's note that the liver is basically a "factory" that manufactures things like proteins and processes or destroys things like medications....Another thing to remember is that these enzymes will rise when almost any drug .....Processing two foreign chemicals is always a burden on the liver...to state otherwise is fiction.......one thing I do know from my research is majority of consultants will explain that actual toxicity of oral steroids is somewhat exaggerated.....but we simply cannot be certain the chemical reaction that occurs when these compounds are mixed and processed by the liver...


----------



## Deadcalm (Aug 9, 2013)

Subxessor said:


> let's note that the liver is basically a "factory" that manufactures things like proteins and processes or destroys things like medications....Another thing to remember is that these enzymes will rise when almost any drug .....Processing two foreign chemicals is always a burden on the liver...to state otherwise is fiction.......


1). Testosterone is not a foreign chemical. It's a natural hormone. The body can't distinguish between the two so there's no reason for the liver to even touch it.

2). The liver only metabolises chemicals taken orally through the digestive tract. Injecting them IM bypasses the liver so it enters directly into the blood stream.

3). EVEN if the liver was involved in directly processing injectable steroids, there's no reason why it would cause any stress. Methylated oral steroids only cause a restriction of bile flow which causes liver damage. Injectable steroids aren't methylated, so where would the stress and toxicity come from?


----------



## Subxessor (Mar 3, 2014)

Deadcalm said:


> 1). Testosterone is not a foreign chemical. It's a natural hormone. The body can't distinguish between the two so there's no reason for the liver to even touch it.
> 
> 2). The liver only metabolises chemicals taken orally through the digestive tract. Injecting them IM bypasses the liver so it enters directly into the blood stream.
> 
> 3). EVEN if the liver was involved in directly processing injectable steroids, there's no reason why it would cause any stress. Methylated oral steroids only cause a restriction of bile flow which causes liver damage. Injectable steroids aren't methylated, so where would the stress and toxicity come from?


 Those points are valid In a Specific context.....subsequently in reality

that contradicts patients, who's liver enzymes rise after testosterone replacement therapy injections and liver enzymes SGOT and SGPT sometimes are double....


----------



## johnnymctrance (Nov 21, 2012)

Deadcalm said:


> 1). Testosterone is not a foreign chemical. It's a natural hormone. The body can't distinguish between the two so there's no reason for the liver to even touch it.
> 
> 2). The liver only metabolises chemicals taken orally through the digestive tract. Injecting them IM bypasses the liver so it enters directly into the blood stream.
> 
> 3). EVEN if the liver was involved in directly processing injectable steroids, there's no reason why it would cause any stress. Methylated oral steroids only cause a restriction of bile flow which causes liver damage. Injectable steroids aren't methylated, so where would the stress and toxicity come from?


Point number 2 is not true, just because it is injectable does not mean it is not processed by the liver... for example if u get an i/v infusion of paracetamol your liver still needs to metabolize it through phase 1 and 2 metablolism... do not think that the liver only acts on GI contents only as that is very much un-true


----------



## kingblog (Oct 19, 2013)

Nobody is saying testosterone is TOXIC. Merely that it has an effect on liver values. Clearly not to the same level as oral compounds (liver damage scare stories are also a little exaggerated).


----------



## kingblog (Oct 19, 2013)

The liver isn't just there to process foreign bodies. Deadcalm needs to go back to school.


----------



## SwAn1 (Jun 4, 2012)

I'm just planning my tren, test, mast booze cocaine and valium cycle right this minute. Yeah its bad to abuse your body on a cycle, but it counteracts looking like an untrained fat piece of sh!t


----------



## johnnymctrance (Nov 21, 2012)

Is there anything specifically bad about drinking on tren??? like compared to other aas such as test only, deca etc??


----------



## abducted51 (Sep 27, 2012)

johnnymctrance said:


> Is there anything specifically bad about drinking on tren??? like compared to other aas such as test only, deca etc??


I'd like to know this too if anyone has any insight.


----------



## Andy Dee (Jun 1, 2008)

I use to drink when I did gear the odd time here and there but If i was ever do run gear again I wouldnt do.

People very seriously underestimate how catastrophic even a few drinks on the weekend can have on your strength more than anything.


----------



## kuju (Sep 15, 2010)

Deadcalm said:


> I'm not sure how you can be a researcher in human enhancement drugs when you don't seem to know how it works from what you've said.
> 
> Why would the liver metabolise testosterone? Once the ester is removed it's identical to natural testosterone already in the blood stream. It simply floats freely in the blood stream and attaches to androgen receptors. The liver never gets involved.
> 
> ...


I think I'm out of this very shortly...it's like beating my head against a wall and I have way better things to do with my day. However...

1. I can be a researcher in human enhancement drugs because i've spent the past 9 years doing so. You have shown through some of your posts that you haven't actually read what I said - either that or you didn't understand it. You don't seem to lack mental capacity so i'm assuming you just didn't read it properly. Whilst you have made some very valid points..you have also demonstrated a lack of understanding about the function of the liver and metabolism generally. The liver metabolises most of what passes through us...REGARDLESS of the route of administration.

2. Why would the liver metabolise testosterone.....seriously? Take a look at any medical textbook... But here's an excellent article that lays it all out for you nice and clearly:

http://www.ergogenics.org/anabolenboek/index11en.html

I draw your attention to this part in particular:

"In schemes 1 and 2 we have seen that testosterone can be metabolized in two ways. In Scheme 1 the reductive metabolism leading to dihydrotestosterone and in Scheme 2 the oxidative metabolism to estradiol is shown. The reduction of testosterone takes place in target tissues like the prostate and the skin *and of course metabolism takes place in the liver*. In male a very small part (0.2%) of the testosterone is converted into estradiol. This process mainly takes place in adipose tissue and for about 20% in the testes.

*The metabolisme of testosterone and dihydrotestosterone takes place for 90% in the liver*. There reductases and dehydrogenases catalyse the reactions of the D4-double bond, the C3-carbonyl group and the C17-hydroxyl group. Finally the hydroxyl groups are connected to glucuronic acid or sulphate, followed by excretion with the urine [3] [4]. "

If you want actual journal articles then there are plenty of references there for you.

The idea that something can be in the blood stream and NOT interact with the liver is facile and ludicrous. Here's a simple explanation...feel free to consult any medical textbook for more detail. http://www.webmd.com/digestive-disorders/picture-of-the-liver

Again - here's a quote from that link :

"The liver also detoxifies chemicals and metabolizes drugs. "

Here's another steroid hormone metabolisation 101:

http://www.gfmer.ch/Books/Reproductive_health/Steroid_hormone_metabolism.html

And another quote:

"Despite their relatively simple chemical structure, steroids occur in a wide variety of biologically active forms. This variety is not only due to the large range of compounds secreted by steroid-synthesizing tissues, but also to the *fact that circulating steroids are extensively metabolised peripherally, notably in the liver*, and in their target tissues, where conversion to an active form is sometimes required before they can elicit their biological responses. *Steroid metabolism is therefore important not only for the production of these hormones, but also for the regulation of their cellular and physiological actions*."

Again - there are plenty of references there to go back to.

Bottom line - the liver metabolises testosterone. That doesn't mean that every single molecule that passes through on any one pass gets metabolised, but it does, unequivocally, happen to at least some of it. It is also important to note that the metabolisation can involve conversion to other steroids and perhaps more importantly that the majority of testosterone is in fact protein-bound by either albumin or SHBG - both of which are produced in the liver. Bound testosterone is inert and therefore less likely to be metabolised. It is freed outside of the liver in order to interact with the receptor.

So please...just accept the clear medical fact that the liver metabolises testosterone. To say it doesn't and to then denigrate others for their lack of scientific knowledge is frankly, a bit farcical.

3. Again - and I know you don't mention this in the quote above but you have in other posts so I'll address it here...... I am not saying that injectable testosterones cause significant heptaic stress anywhere near the order of orals. But it is unequivocally clear that being on cycle, even if it's injectable only, can show a significant increase in hepatic markers as indicated by LFT's. The liver is under increased stress whilst on cycle. End of. How much of an issue that is in individual cases, is a very personal thing.

Binge drinking is characterised by a rapid ingestion of alcohol at a rate that exceeds that at which the body can deal with it. There is obviously a great deal of variation in physiological response to this, based upon a wide range of variables - but the fact remains that taking in large amounts of alcohol quickly is toxic. Just because someone can drink 10 pints and feel a little bit drunk and another person drinking ten pints is virtually comatose doesn't mean that person A is suffering any less damage or doing something that's any less toxic - it just means they have a greater ability to withstand the obvious effects of that much alcohol...or perhaps that they have greater tolerance as a result of greater alcohol consumption over time...which I would argue could also suggest that they may actually have caused more damage as a result of their drinking career. But I admit that's speculation on my part...however it's not without a reasonable basis.

The OP stated quite clearly that he binge drinks and asks if this was a bad idea whilst on cycle. I am responding by saying that binge drinking is inherently harmful (which it is) and that the liver is already under a lot of stress whilst on cycle, regardless of whether it's orals or injactables. Yes orals are a potentially bigger issue, but that doesn't mean we can dismiss injectables completely as being "safe" whilst binge drinking. A much bigger issue for me is that ...if you're going on cycle in order to make your body "better" in some way - why would you spoil that by doing something so inherently unhealthy and which also potentially contributes significantly to an increase in adipose tissue? It seems pointless, counter intuitive and ultimately a bit of a waste of a good cycle. But that's just my opinion....the OP is free to do with his body as he chooses.

You seem to be desperately trying to prove a case for the idea that it's perfectly fine to get drunk every week..even whilst on cycle. From a purely physiological perspective&#8230;your body would probably disagree. It may well handle it, it may not - but given that getting drunk is an inherently unhealthy thing to do it seems strange to try and build a case for it being perfectly fine from a physiological perspective. Again - I personally have no issue with people who want to do that; it's their body. But as ever - these threads are read by many people for years to come and it's important to get the facts right so people can read them and make an informed decision about their own body and what they do with it. That's kind of the point.


----------



## staffs_lad (Mar 10, 2013)

Not run as cycle as of yet, so take what you will from that, though that key will be turned some time in the future. I personally wont be touching a drop when that time does come.

If i've spent all that money on performance enhancement, all the planning and research, i'm going to want to get the most out of it.

Since i was a teen i've always taken extended period of not drinking due to sport (boxing etc) and even though i wont be training for a fight when i comes to a cycle what is 8-16 weeks without beer? The abstaining , self-control and focusing on your goals is far more rewarding in my opinion.

Take into account the added health risks, i think i'll find other ways to enjoy myself.


----------



## Subxessor (Mar 3, 2014)

Whoever believes the livers primary and only function is to metabolise oral administration, doesn't have a fundamental understanding of human biology or they simply have selective opinions based on there desires.


----------



## Sams (Nov 3, 2013)

Drinking on cycle is actually good for you, especially towards the end of the cycle when you are bigger and can pull more


----------



## Old n fat (Feb 1, 2014)

This is one of those topics where you will get passionate people , answering with very strong opinions !

Drinking generally is bad !

If you drink to the point you feel drunk , It will take the liver 2 weeks to compleatly heal and repair from That, and that would be one period of consumption then 14 days to be right again !

Steroids are also seen as risky to your health, especially as we don't really know exact dose and what compounds we take!

No health promoter , GP, nurse or drug worker would suggest there safe , maybe they would say it's a calculated risk with things like HRT , TRT .

But all medicines pharma or other have risks attached to them.

So the answer logically has to be yes this is pretty bad for you're health , short term and long term.

However , I strongly believe life is for living and all things in moderation is the key to a happy life !

Maybe it's about choices , you could manage risk by stopping one or the other (gear or beer) or just take less of both lower your risk and try not to get to ****ed up when you do drink . Have no other alcohol for 2 weeks and really think about what's important to you right now !

26 is a great age if I could go back in time to that age I wouldn't miss a thing !!


----------



## SK50 (Apr 7, 2013)

So we're all in agreement that IM steroids are metabolised by the liver. I believe Deadcalm made an error on this point - let's not discredit his entire argument because of this. But still, do we have evidence that IM AAS increases liver enzymes, or creates an environment where the liver is more susceptible to damage from alcohol?

From my understanding there are no *significant* liver issues with IM AAS. All I have seen in this thread is anecdotal evidence so far (which there is nothing wrong with, if that's all we have). I would have assumed, though, that with the millions of people being prescribed AAS we would have studies on hepatoxicity if it indeed exists.


----------



## jonyhunter (Oct 25, 2013)

I think it'll slow you down in your training, cycle and your diet.


----------



## SK50 (Apr 7, 2013)

jonyhunter said:


> I think it'll slow you down in your training, cycle and your diet.


I don't think anyone disputes this point.


----------



## Old n fat (Feb 1, 2014)

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/740364

That's all I could find !

If that's a good study (and I believe it is) then drinking and AAS are equity bad for your liver !

Combine the two and your in a world of **** !!

Reading that has just opened my eyes a lot more on this topic !

I change my plea to N0 DONT ever ****ing drink on cycle , off cycle evaluate how long you have been off and do you think your liver can take a kicking for a night on the lash !


----------



## kuju (Sep 15, 2010)

SK50 said:


> So we're all in agreement that IM steroids are metabolised by the liver. I believe Deadcalm made an error on this point - let's not discredit his entire argument because of this. But still, do we have evidence that IM AAS increases liver enzymes, or creates an environment where the liver is more susceptible to damage from alcohol?
> 
> From my understanding there are no *significant* liver issues with IM AAS. All I have seen in this thread is anecdotal evidence so far (which there is nothing wrong with, if that's all we have). I would have assumed, though, that with the millions of people being prescribed AAS we would have studies on hepatoxicity if it indeed exists.


To be fair - my point was more that binge drinking is inherently a bad idea and that there are clear signs the liver is under greater stress whilst on cycle. Whather that equates to hepatoxicity is debatable, they're not the same thing..although obviously something that is hepatoxic places teh liver under stress.

I don't think there are significant liver issues with IM aas either - I do think that they raise hepatic markers in most people but whether that's significant is open to debate.

I do, absolutely, think that that the use of anabolic steroids at BB doses places sufficient stress on the body to suggest that it is at best risky and at worst quite dangerous to indulge a practice that is demonstrably damaging to the body.

From what I've understood - his argument was that it's perdfectly fine to go out and get p1ssed every week whilst on cycle. My argument is that, from the body's perspective..actually it's not ok to do that, cycle or not. That doesn't mean people will all keel over doing it - it just means it's unhealthy and damaging. That, in turn, does not mean people shouldn't do it - but theuy shouldn't bury their head in the sand either.

Injecting yourself with a drug that may or may not be what it says it is, at the dose it says, and may or may not be contaminated with other things...is an inherently risky practice. Drinking more than your body can handle (as in both quantity and speed of delivery) is a demonstrably risky and damaging practice. THose two things together is therefore a highly risky process. His argument seems to be that it is not. My argument is that he's ignoring the obvious truths.

There's nothing wrong whatsoever with doing risky unhealthy things and I am certainly not in a position to preach to anyone about oding them. I just think people should at least face up to teh realities of what they're doing.

Edit - typo central...........in a rush 

This isn't abotu the hepatoxicity of IM aas. It's abotu the practice of binge drinking whist on cycle.


----------



## JonnyBoy81 (Jun 26, 2013)

If you are at a point where you think you have peaked naturally and need to introduce AAS, then why on earth would you not be fully commited to getting the best out of your cycle and look after your health??..

Alcohol lowers Test and lowers the release of GH.


----------



## Leetflex (Jan 9, 2014)

kuju said:


> To be fair - my point was more that binge drinking is inherently a bad idea and that there are clear signs the liver is under greater stress whilst on cycle. Whather that equates to hepatoxicity is debatable, they're not the same thing..although obviously something that is hepatoxic places teh liver under stress.
> 
> I don't think there are significant liver issues with IM aas either - *I do think that they raise hepatic markers in most people* but whether that's significant is open to debate.
> 
> ...


Post a study that proves the mechanism of how injectable testosterone causes elevated liver enzymes which come from the liver, because of liver damage/strain and not from muscles. We should also remember that testosterone has been used for around 80 years, which for a medicine is a rather long time, especially if you consider what synthetic steroids women take in the new generation contraceptive pills which they stay on for years and years and get no blood work.


----------



## kuju (Sep 15, 2010)

Leetflex said:


> Post a study that proves the mechanism of how injectable testosterone causes elevated liver enzymes which come from the liver, because of liver damage/strain and not from muscles. We should also remember that testosterone has been used for around 80 years, which for a medicine is a rather long time, especially if you consider what synthetic steroids women take in the new generation contraceptive pills which they stay on for years and years and get no blood work.


The last sentence in my post that you quoted...the one right above your reply...is this:

*This isn't abotu the hepatoxicity of IM aas*. It's abotu the practice of binge drinking whist on cycle.

The liver is essentially a processing factory that produces a variety of chemicals, manipulates others into different forms and destroys others completely. It is an essential part of the balancing mechanism that keeps us functioning. When we talk about the toxicity of anabolic steroids we're talking relatively. Oral steroids and other drugs with alpha alkylation resist metabolisation by the liver which then places stress upon the liver. Relatively speaking they are hepatotoxic...to varying degress for reasons that nobody i've ever spoken to really understands (including several endo's). However - ALL DRUGS will cause a rise in liver enzymes as the liver works on them. If you have higher doses of drugs you will get a greater response because the liver is working harder. I have been at pains to state thatI am not suggesting IM steroids are hepatotoxic but they DO cause an increase in hepatic markers. That does not necessarily equate to hepatotoxicity but it does mean the liver is working harder and is therefore under more strain. Higher doses for prolonged periods means that process is exacerbated to some degree....which will vary wildly depending on individual physiological responses.

This thread is not about whether IM steroids are hepatotoxic, it's about the fact that whilst on cycle your body is under increased strain generally. This much is well documented. The liver is working harder because it has to deal with a lot more than usual. It is perfectly capable of doing this...so it doesn't mean that it is being poisoned....it just means it's working harder than normal.

Then throw a load of alcohol in, at a greater quantity and rate (you need both) than the body can handle in normal circumstances and you run a genuine risk of pushing your liver over the edge. Will it absolutely happen in all cases? Who knows.... Is it a genuine possibility? Yes, unequivocally it is a possibility.

Am I saying that binge drinking absolutely WILL cause significant health issues in everyone who does it? No...but it is a proven unhealthy practice. The range of variables that can affect what health outcomes someone has on cycle, regardless of other drug use, is huge; that makes it very difficult to state things with absolute certainty....including any statement that says it's all perfectly safe.

Binge drinking is unhealthy and places considerable stress on the liver as well as the other potential probelms. Being on cycle places a systemic stress upon the body, part of which is characterised by raised LFTs, signifying that the liver is working harder. The liver is the primary organ affected by significant alcohol use. Putting the two together increases the systemic stress of both and is therefore not an advisable idea.

That is the point I was making.

I don't see why how long testosterone has been used is relevant - paracetamol has been around since the late 19th century and in general use since the 50's but you can theoretically buy enough to kill you for less than £1 nowadays. Just because a drug has been around a long time doesn't make it objectively "safe" in any context. There are risks for any drug...ignoring for the moment the fact that some individuals have specific reactions to drugs that most people tolerate perfectly well. And women using some contraceptives do get regular helath checks as part of the prescribing process.


----------



## Leetflex (Jan 9, 2014)

kuju said:


> The last sentence in my post that you quoted...the one right above your reply...is this:
> 
> *This isn't abotu the hepatoxicity of IM aas*. It's abotu the practice of binge drinking whist on cycle.
> 
> ...


Actually it is about the toxicity of injectable AAS because the thread is about using gear and alcohol at the same time. Obviously discussing the toxicity of injectable steroids is very relevant to the OP, one would obviously like to know if injectable AAS will cause additional liver strain whilst also consuming alcohol.

You have made numerous statements about injectable steroids (testosterone included) causing some strain to the liver, and that people whom take injectable steroids have raised liver enzymes. Now as you are just some random human off the internet I ask you to post at least one well conducted study that shows elevated liver enzymes from people on injectable steroids vs off steroids. And lets not forget that correlation isn't causation, I argue that it is possible that steroids can increase training intensity via increased strength and aggression, not to mention increases in muscle mass itself, this can cause more ALT/AST to be released from muscle tissue. Therefore I want direct confirmation in any study you post that the elevated liver enzymes are a result from liver strain and not from the muscles.

People who read this cannot just accept what you type as gospel. Show the evidence and if there isn't any real evidence then it is only your opinion on this.


----------



## kuju (Sep 15, 2010)

Leetflex said:


> Actually it is about the toxicity of injectable AAS because the thread is about using gear and alcohol at the same time. Obviously discussing the toxicity of injectable steroids is very relevant to the OP, one would obviously like to know if injectable AAS will cause additional liver strain whilst also consuming alcohol.
> 
> You have made numerous statements about injectable steroids (testosterone included) causing some strain to the liver, and that people whom take injectable steroids have raised liver enzymes. Now as you are just some random human off the internet I ask you to post at least one well conducted study that shows elevated liver enzymes from people on injectable steroids vs off steroids. And lets not forget that correlation isn't causation, I argue that it is possible that steroids can increase training intensity via increased strength and aggression, not to mention increases in muscle mass itself, this can cause more ALT/AST to be released from muscle tissue. Therefore I want direct confirmation in any study you post that the elevated liver enzymes are a result from liver strain and not from the muscles.
> 
> People who read this cannot just accept what you type as gospel. Show the evidence and if there isn't any real evidence then it is only your opinion on this.


Very fair post and wehen I get the opportunity to find such studies I will see what I can dig out, fortunately I'm in the middle of writing something that requires me to do that - however.......i'm guessing you know as well as I do it'll eb difficult to find a study that looks at healthy people that are not also doing serious weight training (so we can discount the effects of the training itself).

I'm basing my opinion on bloodwork from a large cohort of patients...however this isn't publicly available information so I can't exactly post it up here. In a lot of cases...almost all I would say....the raised values go down again off cycle. So it is specifically on cycle that they seem to be raised. And it doesn't affect everyone the same way.

However - I would still maintain that..since this is teh original question "Or is it ok to go out once a week and drink (a binge) while on cycle? " - the answer should still be that it is ill advised. Which is what I was saying. Because binge drinking is an unecessary and unhealthy practice that places inordinnate stress on teh liver. Being on cycle also places systemic stress upon the body. That's not a good combination. We can argue the toss about the hepatotoxicity of IM aas til we're b,lue in eth face but it doesn't make binge drinking any safer regardless of the outcome of that discussion.


----------



## latblaster (Oct 26, 2013)

@kuju

Yet another great post mate, I found it very interesting & y'know I actually believe what you write...even though some may call you 'random'. :lol:

What sort of mild symptoms might indicate that the Liver is being overstressed?

I take a trt dose, never done a cycle, but when I have a couple of glasses of wine I feel a little unwell in the morning.


----------



## kuju (Sep 15, 2010)

latblaster said:


> @kuju
> 
> Yet another great post mate, I found it very interesting & y'know I actually believe what you write...even though some may call you 'random'. :lol:
> 
> ...


Cheers mate 

The problem with assessing liver damage...or hepatotoxicity in particular.....is that you need several tests over time. Liver function tests look at a range of different markers - two of the primary ones being AST and ALT. However....these (especially AST) can be elevated as a result of heavy weight training. Usually it requires several tests to determine that they are raised over time before you can take these as any sort of marker that something is genuinely wrong. The problem then is....liver problems can be asymptomatic so there might be something wrong but the person feels fine. Or not. The liver values tested for can almost all be as a result of liver damage AND/OR damage elsewhere. Generally speaking you would want to other markers (such as CK and GGT) raised before you actually start worrying that there is something wrong with the liver.

Even then you need to discount a range of possible causes and that investigation can become very complex, very quickly. For instance - if GGT is raised then that could suggest cholestasis...which is a condition cause either by obstruction or as a metabolic pathology - which prevents bile flowing to the duodenum. Essentially you get a build up of bile containers which can then rupture and start damaging local tissue. But........there are other possible causes for raised GGT which aren't anywhere near as serious.

And that's before we get into all the other markers. It's a very complex organ and I'll happily admit my understanding of this is not perfect. But I have seen many many blood tests over the past 9 years or so and I would say roughly 2/3 of them have shown raised liver values. Whether that translates into heptotoxicity is debatable and I would argue that in many cases it doesn't. But it does show the liver is working harder...which makes sense because it is trying to metabolise a shed load of drugs...it is part of its role after all. Binge drinking has clear evidence showing the impact on the liver - it just gets overwhelmed because of the rate of ingestion.

In your case....you say you have a couple of glasses of wine and feel a little unwell the next day. That *could* be down to your liver - or it could simply be due to a personal physiological reaction to wine. I have friends who are fine on red but go mental on one glass of white. I have other friends who feel fine after a night on white wine but the day after a night on red feel like death warmed up. The other chemicals, besides alcohol, also have an effect and some people are hyper sensitive to them.

In terms of visible symptoms of liver damage - jaundice is the key one afaik. The problem with liver damage is the fact that is it often asymptomatic for quite a long time.

Just to be absolutely clear....... I personally believe the hepatotoxicity of aas has been overblown generally. Including orals. Because I have seen little evidence of genuine long term impairment (although interestingly there are several case studies of superdrol eliciting jaundice in a reklatively short space of time). BUT - i do believe that whilst on cycle the liver is placed under greater stress as it attempts to process the quantity of extra chemicals it has to metabolise. So whilst i'm unconvinced that aas are quite the liver wrecker they have been made out to be....I personally wouldn't stress the liver further by adding a shedload of alcohol whilst on cycle. After all....you only have one liver and if it goes....well, I am reliably informed by nursing and doctor friends that liver damage is a pretty nasty way to go. Personally - I whink if you're going to spend so much time and effort to feel and look good - why risk screwing it up with pointless calories and liver stress?


----------



## Leetflex (Jan 9, 2014)

kuju said:


> Cheers mate
> 
> The problem with assessing liver damage...or hepatotoxicity in particular.....is that you need several tests over time. Liver function tests look at a range of different markers - two of the primary ones being AST and ALT. However....these (especially AST) can be elevated as a result of heavy weight training. Usually it requires several tests to determine that they are raised over time before you can take these as any sort of marker that something is genuinely wrong. The problem then is....liver problems can be asymptomatic so there might be something wrong but the person feels fine. Or not. The liver values tested for can almost all be as a result of liver damage AND/OR damage elsewhere. Generally speaking you would want to other markers (such as CK and GGT) raised before you actually start worrying that there is something wrong with the liver.
> 
> ...


Excellent post and I have enjoyed reading your comments here. After reading back it was not very good etiquette for me to call you just some random guy, I apologize for that. I hope you get the point I was trying to make!


----------



## kuju (Sep 15, 2010)

Leetflex said:


> Excellent post and I have enjoyed reading your comments here. After reading back it was not very good etiquette for me to call you just some random guy, I apologize for that. I hope you get the point I was trying to make!


I absolutely get the point you were making mate and it was unequivocally fair. The more I look at aas and liver function the less convinced I am by the absolute hepatotoxicity of orals. Which is not to say I think they're "safe" as such..... paracetomol is one of (if not THE) leading causes of liver failure worldwide. But thousands of people take it daily without apparent issue. It is not hepatotoxic in an absolute sense (in fact it's actually a metabolite produced in the liver that is the toxin) but take too much too quickly and you overwhelm the liver...and at that point it's hepatotoxic.

But you can have subclinical stress without heaptotoxicity. All drugs we take place some strain on the liver; in most cases..used at therapeutic doses and assuming the person is healthy...the liver can handle it. But there will always be a point at which it becomes overwhelmed. We can process a unit of alcohol an hour with ease. Ten units an hour is a different matter (and that's about 5 pints of regular beer...3-4 of premium beers ...2-3 super strength lagers or just over a bottle of wine).

All of that said...assessing it - especially in a clinical study to determine heaptotoxicity of say aas...is inordinately difficult. One of the major cvauses for drugs to be pulled from the pharma market is hepatic problems that did not crop up in trials. Take 3 different steroids, peptides, tamoxifen, thyroid drugs, clen and god knows what else..all simultaneously...and we literally have no idea what it does. And there is no reasonable way of conducting trials to determine that.

But we do know it stresses the system....and anythign that can minimise that is a good thing.

But as you rightly point out...i'm just a randomn voice on the internet. It is absolutely right to challenge that....because frankly medical science could easily find at some poitn that everythig I just posted is complete nonsense and actually..we were looking at it all teh wrong way in the first place!

In't science brilliant


----------

