# Shoulder training. Light or heavy?



## Donny dog (May 1, 2013)

Where do you guys stand on what's most beneficial for shoulder training?

At the minute I've got a slight injury in what feels like my left side delt so I'm thinking for the time being best to avoid any heavy pressing moves like OhP and Arnold's etc.

But I also enjoy (and feel like I get the most burn/pump) doing things like plate raises and lateral raises with high reps low weight.

Am I best off probably backing off any kind of side/front delt work for a month or so and concentrating on rear delt work.

I know the obvious answer is just to do what's comfortable but if I keep the weight extremely low and just hit failure after 4 sets of 15 reps and a proper warm up I don't see any need to stop front/side work all together.

Im reluctant to cease all shoulder work entirely as (along with flat bench) it seems to be the movement that starts to flag in terms of what weight I use the quickest.

Cheers chaps.


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## Fadi (Dec 14, 2010)

Donny dog said:


> Where do you guys stand on what's most beneficial for shoulder training?
> 
> At the minute I've got a slight injury in what feels like my left side delt so I'm thinking for the time being best to avoid any heavy pressing moves like OhP and Arnold's etc.
> 
> ...


 I'm thinking of writing an article about bodybuilding done backwards for a much better and safer results. You can underline the word *safer*. However I'll share a point with you here that may solve your dilemma.

Pick an exercise that places the least amount of stress onto your shoulder joints. I'm thinking barbell military press here. But in your case, you mentioned something about chest as well. So I'll see if I can hit two birds (or three) with the one stone OK.

Get yourself onto an 80 degree inclined bench. Grab either a barbell or a set of d/bells, whichever works better for you and places less stress onto your shoulder joints. Now that we've established the movement, one that not only is going to target your shoulder muscles, but also the upper part of your pectoral/shoulder tie in muscles, we now focus on the most crucial part, the methodology behind the way I'm going to ask you to execute this exercise.

100 reps (yes, it's my favourite number)!

Relax, I'm not here to kill you I'm here to offer some help...,promise 

1. 2x30....that's two sets of 30 reps each thank you very much. I want as much blood injected into the muscles we're targeting as humanly possible please.

Now it'll become clearer to you why I said bodybuilding done backwards.

2. So we've got 60 reps under our belt (trust me, I didn't need to write that as your shoulders would've already alerted you of this very obvious and amazingly glorious (pumped) fact. We need to continue to 100 reps remember? Ah but, not with the same weight thank you. You need to increase it. That's where bit of experimenting over few workouts would serve you well. Increase it by (say) 5 or 10kg. Now do as many reps as you can. Rest for couple of minutes, then increase the weight again...., yes you got it. We need the 100 reps completed as nothing less will do!

Why all the above and how is it different from the norm, and more importantly in your delicate case, how is it safer?

It doesn't take an Einstein to tell you that not only have you truly and very deeply warmed up your shoulders after the 60 reps were done, but when you increased the weight on your 3rd set, or even your last set completing rep 100, each time the weight was increased, it was a weight that was increased based *not* on your ego or even your thought process, but rather, its determinant factor was your shoulders and all those muscles that were engorged with a huge amount of blood earlier on in the movement.

Mmm, big deal mate, so what?! So the boss is your body and not you, that's what. I've yet to meet a Champion who has out-smarted his body's needs and wants. We think we clever but we (most of us) have PhDs in screwing things up when we think too much instead of allowing our body to have its say in the matter. With the above method (that backward method), your body get its chance to speak.

I wrote the above at 100 miles per hour forgive me...,please ask if you have a question as I might have missed something here or there.

Thank you for your time mate.

Edit: the above also has something to do with metabolic stress and muscle tension, and the order in which you apply them.

Thanks.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

I think higher reps are generally a better idea for lateral and rear delt exercises, as this allows you to concentrate on working the target muscle rather than allowing others to take over. I've never done any front delt isolation as I think they're worked enough by chest exercises.


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## Donny dog (May 1, 2013)

Ultrasonic said:


> I think higher reps are generally a better idea for lateral and rear delt exercises, as this allows you to concentrate on working the target muscle rather than allowing others to take over. I've never done any front delt isolation as I think they're worked enough by chest exercises.


 What does your shoulder routine usually consist of bud?

I have a serious love/hate relationship with shoulder training. Love it as they seem to be one of the best to respond. Hate it as it's absolute agony and feel a weakling due to the relatively light weight involved when doing side raises etc.


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## nWo (Mar 25, 2014)

Donny dog said:


> What does your shoulder routine usually consist of bud?
> 
> I have a serious love/hate relationship with shoulder training. Love it as they seem to be one of the best to respond. Hate it as it's absolute agony and feel a weakling due to the relatively light weight involved when doing side raises etc.


 Arnold presses and cable laterals are the only two side delt exercises I do, both added a nice amount of width to my shoulders! I go heavy on the Arnolds and then burn them out with the cable laterals using very strict form.

For rear delts and upper back I do some sort of elbows-out row. My favourite is using a pair of handles (the type you'd use on the cable crossover) on the cable row. Overhand grip, row the handles to nipple level, elbows flared out to the side. Go heavy for 6-8 reps and finish with a couple dropsets to pump.

Should add that I train on an upper/lower split with the above.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Donny dog said:


> What does your shoulder routine usually consist of bud?
> 
> I have a serious love/hate relationship with shoulder training. Love it as they seem to be one of the best to respond. Hate it as it's absolute agony and feel a weakling due to the relatively light weight involved when doing side raises etc.


 I do three sets of side lateral after chest training and bent over rear delts rows after barbell rows on my back day. Rear delts also get worked doing RDLs on my leg/back day. Others will do much more advanced/fancier things though, and bear in mind I'm natty.


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## Charlee Scene (Jul 6, 2010)

I do push twice a week and do Db overhead 3 x 6-8 then lateral raise 3 x 8-12

then second day smith machine overhead 3 x 8-12 and cable lateral raise 3 x 12-15

rear delts get hit on pull with face pulls or rear delt cable pull


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## Donny dog (May 1, 2013)

Ultrasonic said:


> I do three sets of side lateral after chest training and bent over rear delts rows after barbell rows on my back day. Rear delts also get worked doing RDLs on my leg/back day. Others will do much more advanced/fancier things though, and bear in mind I'm natty.


 Yeah I asked you specifically because I know you're natty (and know your s**t)

interesting methods used there though.

Ive always dedicated a specific day to shoulders usually doing one week side and front and next week focussing on rear delts.

Im considering moving to a upper/lower split soon though as I want to be able to incorporate more boxing type training along with more cardio per week.

Is that what you do?


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## Donny dog (May 1, 2013)

I'mNotAPervert! said:


> Arnold presses and cable laterals are the only two side delt exercises I do, both added a nice amount of width to my shoulders! I go heavy on the Arnolds and then burn them out with the cable laterals using very strict form.
> 
> For rear delts and upper back I do some sort of elbows-out row. My favourite is using a pair of handles (the type you'd use on the cable crossover) on the cable row. Overhand grip, row the handles to nipple level, elbows flared out to the side. Go heavy for 6-8 reps and finish with a couple dropsets to pump.
> 
> Should add that I train on an upper/lower split with the above.


 What sort of reps/sets are you doing on your heavy and what sort of thing when you're working light bud?

Seems most people are mixing it up between heavy and light dependent on what the exercise is when it comes to shoulders.

Also interesting most of you lot seem to train shoulders more than once a week. I've never thought that would be necessary given it's such a relatively small muscle group.


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## Donny dog (May 1, 2013)

Charlee Scene said:


> I do push twice a week and do Db overhead 3 x 6-8 then lateral raise 3 x 8-12
> 
> then second day smith machine overhead 3 x 8-12 and cable lateral raise 3 x 12-15
> 
> rear delts get hit on pull with face pulls or rear delt cable pull


 You train front/side delts two days consecutively mate??

I appreciate you're not going mad with the overall volume but why don't you choose to do what you mentioned into one shoulder session front and sides?


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## Charlee Scene (Jul 6, 2010)

Donny dog said:


> You train front/side delts two days consecutively mate??
> 
> I appreciate you're not going mad with the overall volume but why don't you choose to do what you mentioned into one shoulder session front and sides?


 Nah I mean the first push session I do that then 4 days later do the second, I don't do any specific front work as it gets hit with pushing excersises


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## Donny dog (May 1, 2013)

Charlee Scene said:


> Nah I mean the first push session I do that then 4 days later do the second, I don't do any specific front work as it gets hit with pushing excersises


 I'm with you mate.

But just on the point you make about not doing any front delt specific work as they get some hammer on push movements.

I thought the idea of say flat bench for instance is to take the shoulders out of the equation so as to isolate the chest more?

You seem to be saying you incorporate the front delts into a bench press?

Does this not increase risk of shoulder impingement?


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Donny dog said:


> Yeah I asked you specifically because I know you're natty (and know your s**t)
> 
> interesting methods used there though.
> 
> ...


 Thanks for the compliment, but don't think my opinion in this area is any more valid that the others posted in this thread!

What I should have pointed out above is that I train at home and don't have access to cables for example, so this has some impact on my exercise choice.

My thinking on exercise selection is that my front delts get worked enough from chest work, and since with any overhead press there is still more work done by front delt that the lateral or rear heads I decided a while ago to stop doing these.

Side laterals I do lying at about a 45° angle BTW. This was something I saw DarkSim suggest ages ago and I like it. What it does is that it means your lateral delt is working through the whole range of motion, whereas with standard standing lateral raises there is no tension at the bottom of the movement, and a tendency to use this to build up momentum, particularly towards the end of a set. A different option is to do them standing but not lower the weights all the way to the floor. I've found I like being able to focus on one side at a time though.

I don't do them exactly like this, but here's Arnie doing something similar:






My current training split isn't particularly one I'd generally suggest to others as I only train legs once per week whilst training all of my upper body twice per week. I have no interest in ever competing and being honest legs are just a lower priority to me. What I currently is do an upper body push workout on Monday and Friday (chest, triceps, front and side delts); an upper body pull work out on Wednesday (including rear delts and biceps); and a legs/upper body pull workout on Saturday.


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## Donny dog (May 1, 2013)

@Ultrasonic

The video you posted seems a good idea in principle but that looks like shocking execution form wise?

He's rocking about like crazy and using a ridiculous amount of momentum at the bottom of the movement.

Im pretty much in the same boat really in terms of leg training. I do it about once a week or every ten days or so. I don't want it interfering with my cardio work all the time. But also appreciate power is built from the ground up so don't want to neglect them entirely either.


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## nWo (Mar 25, 2014)

Donny dog said:


> What sort of reps/sets are you doing on your heavy and what sort of thing when you're working light bud?
> 
> Seems most people are mixing it up between heavy and light dependent on what the exercise is when it comes to shoulders.
> 
> Also interesting most of you lot seem to train shoulders more than once a week. I've never thought that would be necessary given it's such a relatively small muscle group.


 Really up to you mate. With the presses for example, you could ramp up to a couple of sets to failure at 6-8 reps. Then with the cable laterals I tend to do a warmup set on each side all as one set; rest a couple minutes, then 12ish reps to failure on the right side - move the pin down the stack by one (making it lighter) for a dropset, then move it down one more for another dropset. Rest for another couple minutes, then do the left side.

I think mixing it up between light and heavy is best for all muscle groups really. All the main rep ranges have their own benefits and different pathways to hypertrophy, makes sense to use them all! So if you're on a bro-split, for every muscle, start with big heavy compounds for sets of 5 or 6-8 reps; then mid-range compounds for 8-12; then finish up on an isolation exercise with high reps and short rests or dropsets to get a pump. If you're on an upper/lower, have heavy and light days.

Yeah, if you're on an upper/lower or similar then you train everything twice a week, pretty much. This type of split has always done my shoulders well, in particular.


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## nWo (Mar 25, 2014)

Donny dog said:


> @Ultrasonic
> 
> The video you posted seems a good idea in principle but that looks like shocking execution form wise?
> 
> ...


 That's just Arnold doing Arnold :lol: Several aspects of his training were questionable at best, but he excelled in spite of that because of his incredible genetics.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Donny dog said:


> @Ultrasonic
> 
> The video you posted seems a good idea in principle but that looks like shocking execution form wise?
> 
> ...


 As I said, I don't do them exactly like that  . I keep my upper arm (humerus) in line with my body rather than lowering it down in front of my body, and I also do them in a slightly more controlled way. However, Arnie's shoulders were much bigger than mine...


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Donny dog said:


> I thought the idea of say flat bench for instance is to take the shoulders out of the equation so as to isolate the chest more?


 Decline presses will do this to a much greater degree. Try them if you never have.



Donny dog said:


> Also interesting most of you lot seem to train shoulders more than once a week. I've never thought that would be necessary given it's such a relatively small muscle group.


 The basic logic behind higher frequency training is that the process of building new muscle after training lasts about a couple of days. This isn't different because a muscle is smaller.


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## Donny dog (May 1, 2013)

I'mNotAPervert! said:


> That's just Arnold doing Arnold :lol: Several aspects of his training were questionable at best, but he excelled in spite of that because of his incredible genetics.


 Haha fair enough.

Imagine if he was an unknown and posted these videos of himself on ukm?? :lol:

He'd be laughed out of town by the uk muscle mafia!


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