# nolva as test booster



## bowen86 (Mar 17, 2008)

Hi Guys,

I either read here or heared it in the gym, that the best sort of testbooster is nolva itself? Is that right, if so why dont people run nolva as a stand alone test booster?

Sorry if that doesnt make sense.


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## jw390898 (Apr 15, 2010)

It's main function is controlling estrogen but it does also stimulate your luteinizing hormone levels too. However, for a test booster only you should not have levels low enough that Nolva would influence this, where i a PCT situation it will help stimulate and trigger restore of natural levels.

This is another reason I like to use Nolva but also combined with a dedicated test booster in PCT.


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## m118 (Feb 4, 2011)

Plus Nolva increases SHBG so you'd have less free test, and for me and many others cripples your libido.


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## bowen86 (Mar 17, 2008)

so in short, no.

Thanks both for clearing that up, i think someone mentioned it in the gym. I also have some knocking about so was going to run a week of nolva. ha/


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## Mr White (Feb 8, 2009)

Also inhibits release of IGF-1 from the liver - Bad Idea


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## henryv (Jul 30, 2009)

jw390898 said:


> It's main function is controlling estrogen but it does also stimulate your luteinizing hormone levels too. However, for a test booster only you should not have levels low enough that Nolva would influence this.


It would raise testosterone levels in eugonadal men as well as hypogonadal men.


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## NovemberDelta (Apr 17, 2011)

bowen86 said:


> so in short, no.
> 
> Thanks both for clearing that up, i think someone mentioned it in the gym. I also have some knocking about so was going to run a week of nolva. ha/


Just on a side note mate, how did your epi cycle end up?


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

jw390898 said:


> It's main function is controlling estrogen but it does also stimulate your luteinizing hormone levels too. However, for a test booster only you should not have levels low enough that Nolva would influence this, where i a PCT situation it will help stimulate and trigger restore of natural levels.
> 
> This is another reason I like to use Nolva but also combined with a dedicated test booster in PCT.


no it doesn't "control serum oestrogen" far from it; oestrogen levels are not prevented from rising, what happens is nolva is both an agonist and antagonist- so it allows a high level of serum oestrogen (good when bulking for IGF-1 production), and antagonises the oestrogen receptor in the breast tissue- hence preventing gyno:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamoxifen

It DOES NOT stimulate LH- that's clomid:

http://www.maledoc.com/blog/2010/04/28/how-clomid-works-in-men/



m118 said:


> Plus Nolva increases SHBG so you'd have less free test, and for me and many others cripples your libido.


well it allows high levels of oestrogen- which actually increases/encourages the shutdown of the HPTA... as the body detects high oestrogen levels as a reason to DECREASE endogenous test production...


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## bowen86 (Mar 17, 2008)

niall01 said:


> Just on a side note mate, how did your epi cycle end up?


gained 12lbs. Loved it.


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## henryv (Jul 30, 2009)

ausbuilt said:


> no it doesn't "control serum oestrogen" far from it


He didn't say it reduced serum levels of estrogen. He said it controlled estrogen. It does "control" estrogen, by regulating the effects of estrogen.



ausbuilt said:


> It DOES NOT stimulate LH


Yes, it does. Quite effectively.



ausbuilt said:


> well it allows high levels of oestrogen- which actually increases/encourages the shutdown of the HPTA... as the body detects high oestrogen levels as a reason to DECREASE endogenous test production...


The body does not "detect" high levels of estrogen when nolva is administered, nolva administration does not cause shutdown of the HPTA.

Nolva raises LH and testosterone production.


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## jw390898 (Apr 15, 2010)

ausbuilt said:


> no it doesn't "control serum oestrogen" far from it; oestrogen levels are not prevented from rising, what happens is nolva is both an agonist and antagonist- so it allows a high level of serum oestrogen (good when bulking for IGF-1 production), and antagonises the oestrogen receptor in the breast tissue- hence preventing gyno:
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamoxifen
> 
> ...


Would appear HenryV has done my work for me


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## rs007 (May 28, 2007)

Arguing over moot points here guys.

Show me as many studies as you like, it doesnt work in reality for the purposes we want - or everyone would just do cycles of Tamoxifen.

Another case of theory just not patching in with reality.

Ausbuilt was closest to reality tho, and here is why (next level application of logic and common sense coming up)

Anything that increases the output of LH and FSH by blocking the effects of estrogen at the hypothalamus, is destined to kinda fall flat. Yes, serum test may go up, ignoring SHBG issues for now, what happens is that testosterone starts to get converted to estrogens via aromatisation. Serum estrogen level goes up, in the back ground.

So, when the product is discontinued, blocking is removed, and the elevated estrogen hiding in the background hits the hypothalamus, causing shutdown again, resultant profile, Estro Hi, Test Lo.

Using a moderate amount of AI while LH/FSH is active may be a solution, but to be honest we are all trying to be armchair experts here with inflated egos - fac is we can't know how much of each to use for a given respons etc, without constant monitoring. None of the studies have been done in our context (muscle gain, and/or on long term cycling bodybuilders, would be unethical) so actually, we know fvck all.

But all this posturing and chest beating on the net is awesome, eh?


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## henryv (Jul 30, 2009)

rs007 said:


> Arguing over moot points here guys.
> 
> Show me as many studies as you like, it doesnt work in reality for the purposes we want - or everyone would just do cycles of Tamoxifen.
> 
> ...


I don't think anyone said the effects would be anabolic. And I don't think ausbuilt was remotely close to reality. Nice attempt at posturing while calling others out for posturing though.


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## bowen86 (Mar 17, 2008)

What have i done....


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## henryv (Jul 30, 2009)

rs007 said:


> Arguing over moot points here guys.


They may be moot points in the context of this thread, but they're not moot points in the context of understanding the effects of tamoxifen, which has wider consequences.


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## Mr_Morocco (May 28, 2011)

my penis is bigger than both of yours


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## rs007 (May 28, 2007)

Woudlnt be hard, my penis is tiny

I mean seriously, excruciatingly tiny

But then, its not the size of the nail, its the size of the fvcking hammer - which brings us right back round to the premise of this thread, in a twisted kinda way :lol:


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## rs007 (May 28, 2007)

henryv said:


> They may be moot points in the context of this thread, but they're not moot points in the context of understanding the effects of tamoxifen, which has wider consequences.


Hey I can do that italics thing too

:lol:

Moot points in the context of BODYBUILDING gents, which is what this board is about?


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## rs007 (May 28, 2007)

henryv said:


> I don't think anyone said the effects would be anabolic. And I don't think ausbuilt was remotely close to reality. Nice attempt at posturing while calling others out for posturing though.


So, claiming a rise in LH/FSH and therefore Test, but not claiming anabolic

Ok

And I'm allowed to posture - I'm fkn awesome


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## Mars (Aug 25, 2007)

ausbuilt said:


> no it doesn't "control serum oestrogen" far from it; oestrogen levels are not prevented from rising, what happens is nolva is both an agonist and antagonist- so it allows a high level of serum oestrogen (good when bulking for IGF-1 production), and antagonises the oestrogen receptor in the breast tissue- hence preventing gyno:
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamoxifen
> 
> ...


YES IT DOES  just because clomid does how can you say tamoxifen doesn't?

PS: it does a lot more than just what you mentioned, IE: what about it;s effects at the hypothalamus, hence why we use it in PCT.


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## henryv (Jul 30, 2009)

rs007 said:


> Moot points in the context of BODYBUILDING gents, which is what this board is about?


And I can do the CAPS THING TOO. Are you saying that nolva has no purpose in bodybuilding? That would seem an odd assertion given that it's one of the most popular meds used by bodybuilders.


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## rs007 (May 28, 2007)

henryv said:


> And I can do the CAPS THING TOO. Are you saying that nolva has no purpose in bodybuilding? That would seem an odd assertion given that it's one of the most popular meds used by bodybuilders.


Jesus man, you can put words into folks mouths too?

You are awesome as well 

Did I say no purpose? No. I said that the clinical evidence of it increasing LH/FSH bears no real world fruit for bodybuilders. I think after decades of the drug being used, this is a no brainer.

As a first line medication for gyno (compound dependant of course) I think it is great, and used it to great effect myself a few times.

A lot of people using it doesn't mean those people aren't misguided btw, just sayin, and the understanding of what these drugs are and how they work is not well understood by the internet masses.


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## aka (Jun 25, 2010)

watch out rs007, henryv can copy and paste mind blowing diagrams too, lol


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## rs007 (May 28, 2007)

aka said:


> watch out rs007, henryv can copy and paste mind blowing diagrams too, lol


Its alright bro, I've probably seen em all already, and aint seen one yet that has less holes than a tetley teabag


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## henryv (Jul 30, 2009)

rs007 said:


> Did I say no purpose? No. I said that the clinical evidence of it increasing LH/FSH bears no real world fruit for bodybuilders. I think after decades of the drug being used, this is a no brainer.


Then your opinion is in stark contrast to that held by the many thousands of men who use it in PCT for precisely that purpose.


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## henryv (Jul 30, 2009)

aka said:


> watch out rs007, henryv can copy and paste mind blowing diagrams too, lol


Haters are more than likely to continue to do the hating thing.


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## aka (Jun 25, 2010)

henryv said:


> Haters are more than likely to continue to do the hating thing.


peace and PH bro


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## rs007 (May 28, 2007)

henryv said:


> Then your opinion is in stark contrast to that held by the many thousands of men who use it in PCT for precisely that purpose.


Yup :thumbup1:


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## bowen86 (Mar 17, 2008)

*gets coat*

me "TAXI!..."

Driver "where to mate?"

me "Anywhere but here. This is the last time i start a thread"

Driver "Sounds bad mate. Can i ask you a question?"

me "Yeah go ahead."

Driver "Can you use Nolva as a testbooster?"

*Bowen, jumps from the cab and walks.*


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

Mars said:


> YES IT DOES  just because clomid does how can you say tamoxifen doesn't?
> 
> PS: it does a lot more than just what you mentioned, IE: what about it;s effects at the hypothalamus, hence why we use it in PCT.


hmm well, seems that LH is lower using tamoxifen:

http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=1412057

and it doesn't seem to do much for the hypothalmus axis:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2885287


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## Mars (Aug 25, 2007)

ausbuilt said:


> hmm well, seems that LH is lower using tamoxifen:
> 
> http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=1412057
> 
> ...


Really,

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6193975

And doesnt it block estrogen receptors in the hypothalamus?


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

Mars said:


> Really,
> 
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6193975
> 
> And doesnt it block estrogen receptors in the hypothalamus?


I was about to criticise that study for having n<30 for the sample population (and thats still valid); however the same could be said of the study I posted up...

I'm unconvinced that tamoxifen has the effect on LH that clomid does... and owing to that, I think a better PCT approach is using an AI- so you don't antagonise the oestrogen receptors in the hypothalmus, but rather lower actual oestrogen levels..

But i admit that PCT is still akin to voodoo..


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## Mr_Morocco (May 28, 2011)

This is blatently one of those subjects where the answer is simple, 'whatever works for you'. Every human being is different and we all react to chemicals different.


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## Mars (Aug 25, 2007)

ausbuilt said:


> I was about to criticise that study for having n<30 for the sample population (and thats still valid); however the same could be said of the study I posted up...
> 
> *I'm unconvinced that tamoxifen has the effect on LH that clomid does... *and owing to that, I think a better PCT approach is using an AI- so you don't antagonise the oestrogen receptors in the hypothalmus, but rather lower actual oestrogen levels..
> 
> But i admit that PCT is still akin to voodoo..


It doesn't, we know clomid is better. I was just responding to your (incorrect) statement that "tamoxifen doesnt raise LH clomid does" .


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## henryv (Jul 30, 2009)

ausbuilt said:


> hmm well, seems that LH is lower using tamoxifen:
> 
> http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=1412057
> 
> ...


Only studies involving males are relevant here. Are you deliberately cherry-picking studies that support your position? There's loads that prove that nolva raises LH and testosterone in males.



ausbuilt said:


> I'm unconvinced that tamoxifen has the effect on LH that clomid does.


Here's one recent study.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20843951



> RESULTS:
> 
> Both drugs (tamoxifen and raloxifene) significantly increased LH, FSH, and testosterone concentrations. The mean increase in testosterone (40 vs. 25%; P<0.05) and LH (70 vs. 30%; P<0.01) was significantly greater with tamoxifen than with raloxifene treatment.
> 
> ...


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## SonOfZeus (Feb 15, 2009)

So is anyone arguing that there would be some benefit in terms of using Nolva to boost test levels for bb'ing purposes? Getting confused by all the different comments! I've got some lying about which I may just use up if there's some benefit, trying to cut atm so I guess it'd help with water retention too? If so, what dose should it be run at? The usual 20mg?


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## henryv (Jul 30, 2009)

rs007 said:


> Yup :thumbup1:


Oh yeah, I forgot. Extreme Nutrition is the company that sells a very strong stack of oral steroids and then advises people not to do PCT, claiming it was "formulated not to need PCT". Maybe that's why at least one of your customers is reporting low test levels six months later and considering self-administering TRT.


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## aka (Jun 25, 2010)

henryv said:


> Oh yeah, I forgot. Extreme Nutrition is the company that sells a very strong stack of oral steroids and then advises people not to do PCT, claiming it was "formulated not to need PCT". Maybe that's why at least one of your customers is reporting low test levels six months later and considering self-administering TRT.





henryv said:


> Haters are more than likely to continue to do the hating thing.


 mg: have a camomile mate


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## m118 (Feb 4, 2011)

A lot of misinformation being put forward here on tamoxifen.

Common sense, and the studies too, would indicate it boosts LH and hence testosterone, and this is why it is so popular as a PCT med.

On a side note, I had pre and post tamoxifen bloods done a year ago, and 1 week into Tamoxifen, my LH was over double what it was prior to starting.


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## m118 (Feb 4, 2011)

''Tamoxifen administration to normal men resulted in a significant rise in the mean serum LH level from 5.7 +/- 1.3 (+/- SD) to 10.1 +/- 2.4 U/L, which was associated with significant increases in LH pulse frequency (from 4.2 +/- 1.5 to 5.8 +/- 1.7/7 h) and LH pulse amplitude (from 3.8 +/- 0.9 to 4.6 +/- 0.7 U/L). ''

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3339109

it is only 13 men, and over 6 weeks, but once again, at least, it is highly suggestive that tamoxifen increases LH.


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## m118 (Feb 4, 2011)

Interesting post by Anthony Roberts, who I know sometimes writes contentious stuff, this is at least worth a read:

One of the first drugs we'll consider for this purpose is what is typically called a SERM. Nolvadex (Tamoxifen) is a SERM (Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulator, which means that it has the ability to act as an anti-estrogen with regard to certain genes, yet also acting as an estrogen with respect to others. That's the "selective" part I guess. It does this by blocking gene transcription in some cases, and initiating gene transcription in others (3). Luckily for us, it has estrogenic effects on bones (meaning it increases their density), and blood lipids -meaning it lowers cholesterol-, (4)(5)as well as preventing gynocomastia by preventing estrogen gene transcription in breast tissue. However, it acts as an anti-estrogen in the pituitary, thus increasing LH and FSH, which results in an increase in testosterone. 20mgs of Nolvadex will raise your testosterone levels about 150% (6)...Nolvadex actually has quite a few applications for the steroid using athlete. First and foremost, it's most common use is for the prevention of gynocomastia. Nolvadex does this by actually competing for the receptor site in breast tissue, and binding to it. Thus, we can safely say that the effect of tamoxifen is through estrogen receptor blockade of breast tissue (7).

Estrogen is also important for a properly functioning immune system, and not only that, but your lipid profile (both HDL and LDL) should also show marked improvement with administration of tamoxifen (34).

Nolvadex also has some important features for the steroid using athlete. In hypogonadic and infertile men given nolvadex, increases in the serum levels of LH, FSH, and most importantly, testosterone were all observed (35)It can also block a bit of estrogen in the pituitary, which is a great benefit when used with HCG (more on that later) (36)(37). The increase in testosterone Nolvadex can give someone with a dysfunctional is basically that 20mgs of Nolvadex will raise your testosterone levels about 150% (6)...Why don't we use Clomid, another SERM? Well, basically because it takes much more to do the same thing. In comparison, it would require 150mgs of Clomid to accomplish that type of elevation in testosterone, but Nolvadex also has the added benefit of significantly increasing the LH (Leutenizing Hormone) response to LHRH (LH-releasing hormone) (6). This most likely indicates some kind of upregulation of the LH-receptors due to the anti-estrogenic effect Nolvadex has at the pituitary. Although both Nolvadex and Clomid are both SERMs, they are actually quite different. As you already know, Nolvadex is highly anti-estrogenic at the hypothalamus and pituitary, while Clomid exhibits weak estrogenic activity at the pituitary (7), which as you can guess, is less than ideal. It should be avoided for the PCT I'm suggesting&#8230;and in fact, avoided in general&#8230;it's simply not as good as Nolvadex.

Read more from this MESO-Rx article at: http://www.mesomorphosis.com/articles/anthony-roberts/post-cycle-therapy.htm#ixzz1VNFVvcbU

http://www.mesomorphosis.com/articles/anthony-roberts/post-cycle-therapy.htm

NB: the statement of avoiding clomid in PCT is worthy of an entirely different thread. the point of this post is to demonstrate that someone with as much knowledge as AR advocates tamoxifen in PCT. And the article has references if anyone wants to expand on it.


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## Hampy71 (Jan 18, 2011)

So, is that a "yes", or a "no" then?


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## m118 (Feb 4, 2011)

Hampy71 said:


> So, is that a "yes", or a "no" then?


Personally, I would go with no.


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## henryv (Jul 30, 2009)

Hampy71 said:


> So, is that a "yes", or a "no" then?


I wouldn't suggest using it as a test booster for ergogenic purposes. It will increase test levels though.


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