# HGH Gyno



## Brutal1 (Jan 25, 2011)

Been reading up but a bit confused here, I had some gyno from years back off test and tren cycle, Not used gear for many years but its never bothered me.

Now I bought a load of Hygetropin 200iu boxes and am suffering pain in my old gyno, From what I read some say Letro wont touch it as its Progesterone thats causing it???

I wish I could just stop the hgh but I bought a load of the bloody stuff so need to get something to counter the gyno im experiencing.

Any advise on whats going on and what I need to get it sorted??

Thanks for reading


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

Caber will help with progesterone Gyno


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

Brutal1 said:


> Been reading up but a bit confused here, I had some gyno from years back off test and tren cycle, Not used gear for many years but its never bothered me.
> 
> Now I bought a load of Hygetropin 200iu boxes and am suffering pain in my old gyno, From what I read some say Letro wont touch it as its Progesterone thats causing it???
> 
> ...


gyno is growth of breast tissue- its responsive solely to oestrogen (same as a pubertal girl in regards to breast growth).

Progesterone increases have shown to raise GH levels, but not the other way around, as far as all the research I've seen. Where have you read that GH increases progesterone? Also, how does progesterone cause gyno without increased oestrogen?

The only thing I can think of that would flare your gyno, if off cycle, is that you have low test, as clinically low DHT (as 5% of all DHT converts to test) could allow your circulating oestrogen to affect your already present gyno (breast tissue).

Nolvadex or an AI would be my choice for any gyno symptoms.


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## Jas (Sep 23, 2010)

For HGH only, do you advise taking Nolvadex or an AI? Is gyno a common side affect from HGH?


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## gearchange (Mar 19, 2010)

Out of curiosity ,how many iu are you running a day?


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## Brutal1 (Jan 25, 2011)

gearchange said:


> Out of curiosity ,how many iu are you running a day?


Im running 4iu mate of Hygets, try to do around 3 weeks on and 2 off due to work commitments, Now the pain behind the nipple is really getting to me and is swollen up.

Ive been training MMA pretty heavy and not used gear for over 2 years now


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

Jas said:


> For HGH only, do you advise taking Nolvadex or an AI? Is gyno a common side affect from HGH?


if not taking any test, i'd rather take just nolvadex rather than an AI.



Brutal1 said:


> Im running 4iu mate of Hygets, try to do around 3 weeks on and 2 off due to work commitments, Now the pain behind the nipple is really getting to me and is swollen up.
> 
> Ive been training MMA pretty heavy and not used gear for over 2 years now


take nolvadex mate. You already had gyno from gear, GH won't cause it. Once you have it, even if you take Letro etc, its never gone, just suppressed- the only way to fix it is with surgery. Even having low natural test could cause it to flare.

On the other hand... maybe your GH is really HCG, in which case your test level is great, and your getting gyno from your own high test level (by the way thats how i got gyno during PCT when I was 20, as there was no tamoxifen cheaply available back then, and AIs wheren't invented).


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## Brutal1 (Jan 25, 2011)

Thanks for your reply mate, Ive just had some bloods taken to see whats up, managed to get, test, estrogen and prolactin levels done, Im pretty sure my hgh is bang on its the 200iu Hygets that a lot of guys are using, Im clueless here as to whats happening, maybe my over training has resulted in this????



ausbuilt said:


> if not taking any test, i'd rather take just nolvadex rather than an AI.
> 
> take nolvadex mate. You already had gyno from gear, GH won't cause it. Once you have it, even if you take Letro etc, its never gone, just suppressed- the only way to fix it is with surgery. Even having low natural test could cause it to flare.
> 
> On the other hand... maybe your GH is really HCG, in which case your test level is great, and your getting gyno from your own high test level (by the way thats how i got gyno during PCT when I was 20, as there was no tamoxifen cheaply available back then, and AIs wheren't invented).


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## gearchange (Mar 19, 2010)

Just a thought..Hgh is a hormone that stimulates new growth,warnings are made to those with possible prostate problems as this can exacerbate the issue.If you have underlying gyno it is a possibility that the hgh is aggravating it through that process.I could be wrong but seems logical to a point ?


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

ausbuilt said:


> gyno is growth of breast tissue- its responsive solely to oestrogen (same as a pubertal girl in regards to breast growth).
> 
> Progesterone increases have shown to raise GH levels, but not the other way around, as far as all the research I've seen. Where have you read that GH increases progesterone? Also, how does progesterone cause gyno without increased oestrogen?
> 
> ...


i have a study somewhere that posted up once that clearly says that GH and Tren does give gyno type symptoms buddy.....


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

Pscarb said:


> i have a study somewhere that posted up once that clearly says that GH and Tren does give gyno type symptoms buddy.....


Am not actually disputing that they may cause gyno symptoms- Its more the mechanism; I doubt its prolactin/progesterone related.

As an example with tren, everyone mentions the "prolactin" gyno. I cannot see evidence of how prolactin, or even progesterone (via raised prolactin) can cause breast development.

http://www.biomedcentral.com/content/pdf/bcr452.pdf

as it says in on the bottom of page 198, while oestrogen is essential for breast development, there is "far less evidence" for progesterone's role in breast development (and impossible without oestrogen).

That's the jist of most research i've seen (wikipeadia weakly says that oestrogen dominates teenage girl breast development; and its entry on progesterone omits any involvement in breast development).

However, I have seen (and have to try and find) an argument that tren actually does increase oestrogen (not via aromatisation though); and I also think there's more evidence in relation to the GH/IGF-1 axis with oestrogen rather than progesterone.

Now even if progesterone HAS a role in breast development (and in this case, men with this issue are going through the same process as girls in puberty), the development would not proceed without a high level of oestrogen.

Cabergoline has indirectly been shown to reduce bio-synthesis of progesterone; however i'd say that progesterone is at best a secondary hormone in breast development, and that simply blocking or reducing oestrogen (tamoxifen or an AI) would be more effective in reducing the symptoms sooner, than cabergoline, regardless of what caused the gyno symptoms.

Of course, nothing bad in taking cabergoline, its a nootropic, and life extensionists take it as well, and it may improve your sex life by reducing the time taken to recover and erection between orgasms as a male, and it is proven to reduce progesterone. My thoughts are that when it comes to gyno, owing to the significant role of oestrogen, that the traditional tamoxifen or AI would be the better choice, regardless of what caused the symptoms.


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

you see my take on this is that there is no breast tissue growth as there is with typical Gyno, hence why i say gyno type symptoms....

i researched it a few years ago mainly because i do not suffer from gyno at any level of Test (been up to 3g per week) yet if i go high with Tren, if i IV GH or i use to high dose of clinical grade GHRP-2 then i get gyno symptoms, i have tried both Serms and an AI to resolve the issue with no luck, if in fact it was oestrogen related this would not be the case plus i would suffer in some way from high doses of Test......


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

Pscarb said:


> you see my take on this is that there is no breast tissue growth as there is with typical Gyno, hence why i say gyno type symptoms....
> 
> i researched it a few years ago mainly because i do not suffer from gyno at any level of Test (been up to 3g per week) yet if i go high with Tren, if i IV GH or i use to high dose of clinical grade GHRP-2 then i get gyno symptoms, i have tried both Serms and an AI to resolve the issue with no luck, if in fact it was oestrogen related this would not be the case plus i would suffer in some way from high doses of Test......


Oh I see- symptoms (itching/pain) but necessarily swelling/growth of traditional gyno....

That leaves me clueless, as I've always looked at gyno from the swelling/tissue growth/hardening (pubertal girl like progression). Since they also talk of itching and pain during that phase I do wonder what causes the itching... I also assumed the pain was due to tissue growth, but this appears to only happen at the early bud/disc stage, not when breasts actually enlarge once growth starts from what I can find, so there may be some other cause for it..


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

i got it really bad (pain) when i tried IV pharma GH it was explained to me by Dat that it was down to the sharp spike of the GH that comes with IV injection....


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

Pscarb said:


> i got it really bad (pain) when i tried IV pharma GH it was explained to me by Dat that it was down to the sharp spike of the GH that comes with IV injection....


IV... big balls.... still can't bring myself to try that! (who knows why, not like i haven poked myself with enough enormous needles over the past few years)

it seems well established that oestrogen increases IGF-1 levels, and GH also increases IGF-1 levels, so I wonder if there is some sort of rise in oestrogen if there is a systemic spike in GH? haven't really seen much on this... but has got me curious...


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

@ausbuilt this is not what i had study wise as i cannot seem to find it although i did post it on here at one point...

this came from Steroid.com written by deep fried who has a better understanding of HGH and the Prolactin receptor relationship.....it may shed some light on the subject



> If you are interested please look into information regarding 22Kda Growth Hormone Isoform and PRL-R dimerization.
> 
> 22Kda HGH is the monomer of HGH that is synthesized as the single isoform for use in pharmaceutical HGH preparations. (the EXO HGH you all use from pharma to generics is ONLY composed of 22Kda HGH)
> 
> ...


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## Jas (Sep 23, 2010)

ausbuilt said:


> if not taking any test, i'd rather take just nolvadex rather than an AI.
> 
> I have gyno caused from puberty. I saw a Endocrinologist, and she confirmed it, and advised surgery as the only mechanism to remove it if I wanted it removed through a operation. Now I have some blood tests done and what they show high prolactin level at 461 mu/L, and I should be aiming for below 401.00mu/L. Progesterone is normal at 1.5 nmol/L.
> 
> ...


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Prolactin can cause gyno, GH can lower thyroid output, and hypothyroidism is one of the reasons why prolactin can spike.


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## Jas (Sep 23, 2010)

hackskii said:


> Prolactin can cause gyno, GH can lower thyroid output, and hypothyroidism is one of the reasons why prolactin can spike.


 @Pscarb has mentioned cabergoline, so I think that is the direction i may head in to lowering prolactin.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Jas said:


> @Pscarb has mentioned cabergoline, so I think that is the direction i may head in to lowering prolactin.


Yah, but with the doses some guys use there will be other sides like headaches, water retention, higher blood pressure, stiff joints, etc.

Still wont fix the hypothyroid issue, and hyperglycemia.


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

hackskii said:


> Prolactin can cause gyno, GH can lower thyroid output, and hypothyroidism is one of the reasons why prolactin can spike.


Hacks mate, I'm at a loss as to how prolactin can cause gynocomastia.

http://www.nhs.uk/chq/Pages/885.aspx?CategoryID=61

Even in pubertal girls, the overwhelming role is for oestrogen to cause the growth of breast tissue; progesterone a proven, very secondary role (and only in the presence of raised oestrogen).

High levels of oestrogen and/or progesterone can inhibit prolactin; and in fact prolactin's effects are only pronounced when oestrogen and progesterone levels drop (this happens in women at birth, following the high levels during pregnancy).

From a hormonal perspective, men growing breast tissue are going through the same physiological hormonal responses as pubertal girls

mammary gland development:

http://ansci.illinois.edu/static/ansc438/Mamdevelop/modulators.html

I'm not saying you're wrong, but I just can't find any science that says prolactin causes mammary gland growth..


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

ausbuilt said:


> Hacks mate, I'm at a loss as to how prolactin can cause gynocomastia.
> 
> http://www.nhs.uk/chq/Pages/885.aspx?CategoryID=61
> 
> ...


Well, prolactin is a hormone that initiates lactation in women, so hell yah it will give a guy gyno and will produce some milk type substance.

I have known (2) guys that have been on this forum that had prolactinoma's which is a tumor on the pituitary that promotes prolactin.

Bad side is prolactin promotes this tumor growth, and prolactin can become well out of control in this condition.

Guys not only get gyno, but also love handles as prolactin also can lower testosterone levels big time.

I know one of the guy's got gyno surgery, and also liposuction for his love handles.

The fix is dostinex to regain control by inhibiting prolactin, and thus the tumor will shrink, once the prolactin is in range, and the tumor shrinks, the guys then initiate a HPTA recovery protocol.

He then went on to do a couple of cycles to get back some of the muscle he lost.

Poor guy had no muscle, with a nice set of tits, and love handles.

Poor guy.

But he is doing much better now and is normal.

Ever notice why women's boobs get bigger when they are pregnant?

That is a direct result of prolactin, making women lactate which makes mothers milk.


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

hackskii said:


> Well, prolactin is a hormone that initiates lactation in women, so hell yah it will give a guy gyno and will produce some milk type substance.
> 
> I have known (2) guys that have been on this forum that had prolactinoma's which is a tumor on the pituitary that promotes prolactin.
> 
> ...


well sure, agree on the tumour/prolactinoma; and yes agree on it making mature breasts grow in preparation for lactation; however in that instance not only is prolactin high, so is oestrogen and progesterone, and its their fall (with prolactin remaining high) that enables lactation post birth.

With prolactinoma, and the suppression of testosterone- 100% agree on all that; the lower testosterone levels mean fat levels rise and muscle drops (especially in non-training males), but the growth in breast tissue is due to the dropped test, and the relatively high oestrogen as a result of that- not the prolactin. If you took an AI or tamoxifen, even with high prolactin levels, you'd have no gyno.

Of course if prolactin is high for some reason it should be reduced- but gyno and growth of breast tissue is dependent on oestrogen- its just that in men the suppression of test by prolactin can make the relative amount of oestrogen high....


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

ausbuilt said:


> well sure, agree on the tumour/prolactinoma; and yes agree on it making mature breasts grow in preparation for lactation; however in that instance not only is prolactin high, so is oestrogen and progesterone, and its their fall (with prolactin remaining high) that enables lactation post birth.
> 
> With prolactinoma, and the suppression of testosterone- 100% agree on all that; the lower testosterone levels mean fat levels rise and muscle drops (especially in non-training males), but the growth in breast tissue is due to the dropped test, and the relatively high oestrogen as a result of that- not the prolactin. If you took an AI or tamoxifen, even with high prolactin levels, you'd have no gyno.
> 
> Of course if prolactin is high for some reason it should be reduced- but gyno and growth of breast tissue is dependent on oestrogen- its just that in men the suppression of test by prolactin can make the relative amount of oestrogen high....


High levels of prolactin in men even in absence of high estrogen can promote breast tissue growth, you can get gyno from estrogen not being too high.

Some drugs like opiods, tranquilizers, antipsychotic, cancer drugs, and many others, all can spike prolactin.

I think you need to get your head around estrogen only, sure it will make things worse but even nipple stimulation can cause localized spikes in prolactin and cause gyno symptoms.

Read that again, you can get gyno from playing with your nipples too much.

Post ejaculation causes a high spike in prolactin as well, and can cause issues with mood, etc.

By saying estrogen only is not correct, prolactin can cause gyno.


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## Brutal1 (Jan 25, 2011)

Right fellas some real good discussions going on here, I now have some blood results back, If you guys can have a look and see whats wrong then that would be greatly appreciated.

Tests taken at 11.30 in morning I had been training hard mma the week prior, prob over trained and on the drink on Saturday.

Testosterone 14.2

Estradiol 10.10 This seems really low??????

Prolact 122

Please someone tell me this makes sense to someone, My nipple is itchy and puffy  (


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## Brutal1 (Jan 25, 2011)

Someone help me please 

Do I need Caber? should I just stop Hygets???

These are my Hegts I use, Must be legit?????

https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn2/v/t35.0-12/1552270_10151841817541724_706539405_o.jpg?oh=3d442596457b012e3021c6bb0894de3f&oe=53952A5E&__gda__=1402290651_a05cd5bd9ff395286a848d65558dd46a


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## skipper1987 (May 1, 2013)

Maybe its hcg and not hgh that would explain the gyno??


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## Brutal1 (Jan 25, 2011)

Can you see the pics at all?? Bought off a reliable source????


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## skipper1987 (May 1, 2013)

Brutal1 said:


> Can you see the pics at all?? Bought off a reliable source????


Yes i can see the pics and these days reliable source means nothing even they may have been done over.

If i was u i would start nolva 10mg ed and if ur worried its prolactin use caber 0.5 mg eod? that way ur tackling both sides??

Are you getting any hcg sides? Carpen tunnell etc?


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