# A question of effectiveness..



## alexus112 (May 1, 2008)

Hey all. Well, to begin, I have no experience of any form of martial arts or fighting, yet am going to take up Kickboxing very soon. I was wondering just how effective you found your skills against NON trained opponents (drunks, hardnuts etc.)

Thanks in advance, sorry if i seem rude


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## West Fight Company (Oct 10, 2007)

alexus112 said:


> Hey all. Well, to begin, I have no experience of any form of martial arts or fighting, yet am going to take up Kickboxing very soon. I was wondering just how effective you found your skills against NON trained opponents (drunks, hardnuts etc.)
> 
> Thanks in advance, sorry if i seem rude


Never had to use them in that type of situation, sorry mate


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## JayC (Jul 16, 2007)

Never used my thai boxing skills in a fight, but I've rear naked choked somebody because they were beating on my friend.


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## [email protected] Company (Oct 10, 2007)

I think you get a pretty good idea of how effective they are when a new guy comes to the gym who fancies himself as a bit of a fighter and then struggles with cardio and will get owned by the majority of people who train regularly.

If you've never trained yourself you'll find it a pretty humbling experience the first time you do as it is quite a weird situation to put yourself in, some people naturally have a fighting instinct while others it takes a while to feel at home.

A street fight is a different matter as we're not bound by any sort of respect for each other, but I'd be pretty confident to say that with any sort of effective training under your belt (muay thai, boxing, kick boxing, mma etc) you would have a significant advantage over someone 'untrained'.

A lunatic with a weapon and ten drunk mates is different though!

Unless you hit him really hard and they all bottle it...


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## JayC (Jul 16, 2007)

Or you hit him extremely hard, knocking his 10 friends out with the shockwave that follows


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## [email protected] Company (Oct 10, 2007)

Seen that one before, it's a good one! Like a sonic boom but with less flashing light and more sparked out drunks!


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## alexus112 (May 1, 2008)

haha 

Thanks alot for your responses guys, i appreciate it alot


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## West Fight Company (Oct 10, 2007)

Something i forgot to say in my original reply was i doubt the situation will come up when you are in a street fight with someone you know for sure hasnt trained martial arts.

"OI! what you lookin at?"

"Not alot"

"You're a c*nt, im gonna smash you up"

"Ok, but before you do have you ever trained in any of the following disciplines?........"

You also cant tell by looking at someone if they have the ability to own you. A good example of this is me and matts old thai instructor - he didnt look much, glasses, balding, portly type of chap. But sh*t the bed he could hurt you bad. (i think you'll agree Matthias)

My BJJ instructor steve is also a very mild mannered guy with a small frame, he's just got his brown belt. Bring the pain.


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## Cha$e (Dec 11, 2007)

I think the most beneficial thing you will find when it comes to using a martial art for " streetfighting " * i use that term very loosely * is that you will have a clear mind when it comes down to it. I know that when it's happend to me my judegement i've gained through the training, striking and hours of soreness has always been a deciding factor in ending the "fight" it before it starts.

Again it's a mindset that you will develop and a deep understading of your own abilities. Good luck and enjoy it and i wouldn't think of it as an art you need for fighting on the street more of a hobby that can get you out of some sticky situations.


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## [email protected] Company (Oct 10, 2007)

West Fight Company said:


> You also cant tell by looking at someone if they have the ability to own you. A good example of this is me and matts old thai instructor - he didnt look much, glasses, balding, portly type of chap. But sh*t the bed he could hurt you bad. (i think you'll agree Matthias)


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## spitfire (Apr 19, 2008)

muay thai will teach you in a space of six to twelve month to add something very positive to your stand up game . if your even just average at learning a decent teacher will help you progress rapidly. as most fights end up on the ground then obviously ju jitsu is the one or join an mma club. the most important thing is be fit , i hate to have to say it but there may be a time that you have to leg it. a live chicken is better than a dead hero. enjoy it all, its fun any way.

as far as taking on ten guys. my thai teacher had a ruck with two big guys . one was slightly behind the other . when he cracked the front guy his head went back and nutted the other guy , knocked the pair out . man, very funny.


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## alexus112 (May 1, 2008)

haha spitfire, would love to see that  sounds hilarious


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## JayC (Jul 16, 2007)

To be honest I'd rather see the shockwave move


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## ezee (Apr 11, 2008)

Krav Maga... Certainly in the different things ive tried its the quickest to pick up and its easy to use effectivley...

the idf are usually sent on a day or 2 cource... its easy to become profficient and pick up basic defence techniques in a few weeks...

for something a bit more advanced... muai thai as mentioned and jkd... if its simple, direct and effective its jkd...


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## JayC (Jul 16, 2007)

Yeah, if you only wanna learn self defense and want to learn quickly, something like JKD, Krav Maga would be brilliant.

However if you've been doing Muay Thai for over a year, (and actually been going to class) then you probably have the fighting skills needed to survive a brawl  (And the cardio)


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## kristian (Apr 9, 2008)

How you train makes a whole lot of difference in terms of combat effectivness. Look at pre-emptive techniques as opposed to sport and pre-assembled circumstances. Always train out of the comfort zone, its a matter of psychology rather than physical.


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## Cha$e (Dec 11, 2007)

JKD is a system based around the pre-emptive strike why else is it called " the way of the intercepting fist ". For effectiveness you need to be ready and confident in your abilities, a lot of sparring different fighters in training will help but you'll never be truely ready just more prepared to use your skills.


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## kristian (Apr 9, 2008)

Yes I would class JKD as a philosophy of mma really rather than a style. The psychology of fighting in the cage changes again as to fighting on the street. I have come across a style that teaches no open hand techniques at all, but anyone with bit of experience will know how useful and effective they are.


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## ezee (Apr 11, 2008)

yes jkd is close to mma... i believe dana white said it was the starting pint for all mma...

however after studdying jkd for a few years there are differences...

mainly jkd is in 2 branches... original jkd vs concepts...

concepts is probably closer to mma as they often have some bjj and kali in there...

original stick to what bruce lee taught only...

after studdying under both branches i prefer the original...

it still encourages you to learn new skills from other martial arts but i found the cncept guys just studdying multiple martial arts whilst the original guys stick to the simple direct and effective concept much more closely... and you actually thin out the martial atrs keeping a core unit of moves that work for you...

the other main difference is that most (not all) mma training ive seen focuses on a ring / cage environment...

in jkd we train to predominantly eye gouge, testicle shots and knww break kicks and pretty much all punches for the trachea (or one to bring the head up and then a big shot to the trachea)... they tend to be the opening to most attacks... grappling is a lot of finger breaking and things like jaw locks... ie small joint manipulation...

no rounds... just quick direct attacking moves... stpkicks etc... intercept and then do not stop untill you have ripped an eye out or pulled the balls off... its certainly not a tickling contest!

krav maga is the most orientated to street situations though id say as you are taught to never go to ground and fight multiple armed attackers...

but jkd is a philosophy... and although bruce lee may have studdied 50 martial arts jkd is mainly modified wing chung, modified fencing and modified boxing... with a few thai kicks thrown in...


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## West Fight Company (Oct 10, 2007)

ezee said:


> in jkd we train to predominantly eye gouge, testicle shots and knww break kicks and pretty much all punches for the trachea (or one to bring the head up and then a big shot to the trachea)... they tend to be the opening to most attacks... grappling is a lot of finger breaking and things like jaw locks... ie small joint manipulation...
> 
> no rounds... just quick direct attacking moves... stpkicks etc... intercept and then do not stop untill you have ripped an eye out or pulled the balls off... its certainly not a tickling contest!


How the hell do you spar for jkd? For thai, boxing, mma etc you go between 30-50% or more depending on who you're sparring with.

How do you pull someones nob off at 30% power?


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## Si-K (Jul 23, 2007)

good point Will.

As I found in karate - knowing the concept and then not being able to practice it so being able to do this in an effective manner is far removed - hence why the UFC was created to prove that apart from eye gouges and biting BJJ was effective against an unarmed single assailant...this the whole thing about cage fighting 1 on 1 fighting well rounded is the way.

I have tried JKD and found this no more useful than karate - again alot of concept re if you do this I will just suck your eyeballs out but in reality try doing that when someone is trying to break your arm or kicking your legs in - remember early JKD in UFC as like all mysterious standup's got its arse kicked...

Although if you pick up JKD it is as good as the person practising it - like any art / just because you practice Thai for example does not mean you can beat up everyone who does not (as Thai appears to be generally the most adaptible and realistic stand up form). I would always say go for a contact martial art (i.e one where you can practice full technique against 1 resisting opponents and 2 on bags -as works conditioning as well) this is why Thai and BJJ are the most popluar - sure if you know other locks and are aware of eye gouges and clenches to throats and Dim Mak use em - but beware you will go to jail.


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## West Fight Company (Oct 10, 2007)

I can understand that it might be quite useful to know how to pluck out the eye - kill bill style but like you say Si - you're looking at jail time for sure.

Our old thai instructor used to show us alot of mean moves such as blocking with the elbow to the nose, pressure point techniques etc. He would show it once then say - "but dont try that on a night out" then not mention it again. He wouldnt train it out as such.

Its like anything though, if it interests you then you learn about it. I dont know enough about JKD and other such martial arts to pass comment.

All depends on what reasons you take up the martial art.


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## ezee (Apr 11, 2008)

you get hurt... a lot!

but sometimes we put a headgaurd on and attach a ping pong ball just above the eye...

or velcro on a little sack to represent the testicles attached to a groin gaurd...

we tend to pad up and train at 100% power... except for trachea shots which we pull as there isnt any real padding you can get to protect that... so somethimes we just hit in the face (headgards with facegaurds)...

if you get the right padding ive seen people do full contact escrima training...


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## kristian (Apr 9, 2008)

I think the average general population wouldnt want to disfigure someone in this way and I should think would be difficult to justify legally. Striking and gauging small points can also be difficult in a realistic situation. Surely an experienced marital artist with a normal mentality would want to use minimum force quickly and effectivly as possible hopefully saving you and the aggressor lots of hassle. Such as pre-emptive strikes such as the slap. Elbows to the head can be just as dangerous as eye gauging.


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## ezee (Apr 11, 2008)

kristian said:


> I think the average general population wouldnt want to disfigure someone in this way and I should think would be difficult to justify legally. Striking and gauging small points can also be difficult in a realistic situation. Surely an experienced marital artist with a normal mentality would want to use minimum force quickly and effectivly as possible hopefully saving you and the aggressor lots of hassle. Such as pre-emptive strikes such as the slap. Elbows to the head can be just as dangerous as eye gauging.


true... and infact the krav maga i do focus very much on this...

I train JKD mainly because I enjoy it and we are all very aware in the class exactly how much trouble we would be in if we utalised some of the techniques ...


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## kristian (Apr 9, 2008)

ezee said:


> true... and infact the krav maga i do focus very much on this...
> 
> I train JKD mainly because I enjoy it and we are all very aware in the class exactly how much trouble we would be in if we utalised some of the techniques ...


yes I know its difficult while under pressure, and every situation is different. Enjoying your training is probably one of the most important aspects of training. to me thats what its all about.:002:


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## Si-K (Jul 23, 2007)

If you enjoy the training then yeah go for it - just to make clear the point I am trying to make it is easier to break someone's knee with a kick than have a pin point accurate eye poke -and lets face it if you could flick the eye - law of averages you could just opt for a punch to the nose, temple, jaw or chin to end the fight if you are that confident (that you could take their eye out in a street fight) although I have never met a wise person who has opted for that to date and that includes some very capable people!.

Agree with WFC - I have been taught some very naughty moves that could break a persons back just by grabbing them etc - but again you will go to jail and trying to execute this under pressure is not easy - although an easy move - if that makes any sense.....Chase also makes an excellent point prepared, maybe? ready..depends on your opponent - you may think you are then you wake up in A & E - over confidence can be worst than lack of confidence.


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## kristian (Apr 9, 2008)

Yes its a good point about confidence. Got to bring things into real perspective and accept that no amount of training or preparation is an absolute gaurantee that you will walk or run away unharmed. I see it more that if i ca put the 100 percent into preparation then im going to get a small percentage out on the street.


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## Si-K (Jul 23, 2007)

I agree...I also liked the quote about being a live chicken as well - most fights are ego fights which is bullshit - you know, disagreement then name calling then no one backs down and ends up in a brawl....just walk away and save it for when you have no choice - one punch could land you in jail (even if you are defending yourself) or worst still you could end up in a box, so not worth it.


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## kristian (Apr 9, 2008)

Absolutley! I see this all the time. Especially people in cars who start shouting and signing at other motorists. ~Its just not worth it. One of my favourite quotes is the one about the 'defeating a thousand men in battle but the greatest victory is to defeat oneself. People fighting and glassing over a spilt drink or a bit of bar space its insane. Alcohol makes the worst come out people. Another example of being in the wrong place at the wrong time.


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## Si-K (Jul 23, 2007)

yeah, I'm trying to sort my road rage - not easy tho'.:beerchug:


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## kristian (Apr 9, 2008)

lol no we are all human and all have an ego to some extent or the other. Im quite a layed back person but when my kids are criticised or threatened or disadvantaged in some way i get this burning rage boiling inside me:fight:


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## Si-K (Jul 23, 2007)

I hear ya - my cure is smoothe FM - sorry not practicle advice for you, lol.


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