# Iforce Tropinol Review



## Der

I bought some iForce Tropinol a few days back and decided to give it a go, starting a log here. Basically just needed a little boost in my workouts (not in terms of energy, but generally a little kick if you know what I mean).

I am training 4 times a week, my routine is the following:

Monday - Chest, Back

Incline Db press 2*6-10

Horiz. Db press 2*6-10

Incline Flies 2*12-20

Weighted wide grip chins 2*6-10

Hammer rows 2*6-10

Db rows 2*10-15 (there are no db's heavier than 50 kg in my gym, so I cant really go for lower reps)

Tuesday - Legs, Delts

Squat 2*6-8

Leg Press 2*15

Extensions 2*15-20

Seated db press 2*6-15

Standing db flies 2*15-20

Incline db flies 2*15

Wednesday - Cardio (30 min of running @ 11-12 km/h)

Thursday - Back

Deadlift 2*6-8

Db rows 2*10-15

Body weight wide chins 2*max

Friday - Arms

Weighted dips/Ez bar curls [superset] 2*6-15

V shaped triceps extensions/Seated db curls [superset] 2*12-20

Revers triceps extensions/Hammer curls [superset] 2*12-20

Cable curls V shaped 2*10-12

Saturday - Cardio (30 min of running at 11-12 km/h)

In addition to that I also do kick boxing sparring sessions twice a week, usually 6-7 hours after my workouts.

My weight is around 80-81 kg, my diet is in check, I eat around 350-400 grams of carbs a day, 200 grams of protein and 80-100 grams of fats. All my carbs are from clean sources and generally very low GI.

My supplements are:

Nutrisport 90+ protein

Myprotein Oats

Controlled Labs orange triad vitamins

Basically finished deloading two weeks ago and going to push myself really hard for the next 4-5 weeks. Will start Tropinol next Monday.


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## JayJo

Nice! I am looking forward to your results!

Bulbine Natalensis (main ingredient in tropinol) looks promising!


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## Kev1980

Following with interest


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## predatorN

Based on feedback I am sure you will get good results.


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## Kev1980

Any update yet?


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## Kev1980

predatorN said:


> Based on feedback I am sure you will get good results.


I am still waiting to read some feed back can you advise us on what you have heard?


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## VaughnTrue

steventon said:


> I am still waiting to read some feed back can you advise us on what you have heard?


have you done a google search yet? There are a ton of logs up at PHF, MFF, and other boards. The response has been absolutely phenomenal.


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## Der

Well no updates, since I am only going to start taking it on Monday  So far training is going as planned.


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## a.notherguy

may be a dumb question but as this claims to have a massive effect on test levels does it need any kind of pct?


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## Fatstuff

a.notherguy said:


> may be a dumb question but as this claims to have a massive effect on test levels does it need any kind of pct?


No, as ur not putting exogenous test into ur body. If this works as it says it does it would be useful in pct I think. But I doubt it does work that good!!


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## a.notherguy

fatmanstan! said:


> No, as ur not putting exogenous test into ur body. If this works as it says it does it would be useful in pct I think. But I doubt it does work that good!!


 :thumbup1:


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## VaughnTrue

I can totally understand why a lot of people are skeptical. A lot of products in the past have made huge claims and failed miserably. In my opinion, the reason for this is weak research prior to bringing the correct compounds to market. With Bulbine Natalensis/ProLensis, it took about 2 years of testing and retesting before it was known without a doubt this stuff will actually work. iForce Nutrition has blood work showing its increased, and ProLensis does as well.

All I can do for now is show you the studies from Dr. Yakuba, assure you that ProLensis is IDENTICAL to what was used in the study, and show you results from other members. So far the results have been outstanding. I have seen MAYBE 4-5 non-responders to it, but every other user has given it glowing remarks.

Here's one from the other day, his sn is ZB126 on modernfitnessforum.



> [starting and Ending Stats]
> 
> Starting / Ending / Change
> 
> Weight: 172 lbs / 177 lbs / +5 lbs
> 
> Waist: 32" / 32.5" / +0.5"
> 
> Arms: 13.5" / 14.25" / +0.75"
> 
> Thighs: 22" / 22.5" / +0.5
> 
> Calves: 15" / 15.25" / +0.25"
> 
> Shoulders: 45" / 47" / +2.0"
> 
> Chest: 41" / 42.25" / +1.25"


So in only 40 days a user, this guy put 1.25" on his chest, 2" on his shoulders, .75" on his arms, and gained 5lbs of muscle(claims he looks leaner as well).

I don't think I can chalk that up to placebo...


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## _Shaun_

"So in only 40 days a user, this guy put 1.25" on his chest, 2" on his shoulders, .75" on his arms, and gained 5lbs of muscle(claims he looks leaner as well)".

Try 36 raw fertile eggs daily, 40 Beverly Ultra 40 liver pills and the equivilant in quality BCAA's, supplement with a quality Egg & Milk non instantized protein powder while training with the focus on decreasing rest intervals between sets to one deep breath (5 seconds). Do that for 40 days then compare the results of that to those of any of your test subjects who took your Tropinol.

It's a no contest, the eggs/liver/intense training routine is second only to taking AAS's and Pro Hormone clones.

This is nothing personal, I understand that you have a living to make and selling supplements is what you do.

But some of us have been around a few years and have seen it all before - the glossy magazine adverts, the bold claims, but in the end they all add up to zilch!


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## VaughnTrue

_Shaun_ said:


> "So in only 40 days a user, this guy put 1.25" on his chest, 2" on his shoulders, .75" on his arms, and gained 5lbs of muscle(claims he looks leaner as well)".
> 
> Try 36 raw fertile eggs daily, 40 Beverly Ultra 40 liver pills and the equivilant in quality BCAA's, supplement with a quality Egg & Milk non instantized protein powder while training with the focus on decreasing rest intervals between sets to one deep breath (5 seconds). Do that for 40 days then compare the results of that to those of any of your test subjects who took your Tropinol.
> 
> It's a no contest, the eggs/liver/intense training routine is second only to taking AAS's and Pro Hormone clones.
> 
> This is nothing personal, I understand that you have a living to make and selling supplements is what you do.
> 
> But some of us have been around a few years and have seen it all before - the glossy magazine adverts, the bold claims, but in the end they all add up to zilch!


If you would prefer to eat 36 raw eggs a day, by all means please do so.

Supplements are not to replace food or hard work. Simply give help when help is needed. Many people would prefer to pop 2-3 pills a day than 36 eggs in a day. To each their own.


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## _Shaun_

Care to name one supplement that isn't a PH that actually delivered results that were on an equal footing with the pre-launch hype?


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## Fatstuff

VaughnTrue said:


> If you would prefer to eat 36 raw eggs a day, by all means please do so.
> 
> Supplements are not to replace food or hard work. Simply give help when help is needed. Many people would prefer to pop 2-3 pills a day than 36 eggs in a day. To each their own.


Lol u don't think they were serious do u


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## VaughnTrue

fatmanstan! said:


> Lol u don't think they were serious do u


I never know any more. I see the craziest things on these forums!


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## _Shaun_

The Health Benefits of Raw Eggs By John Claydon D.Hom

The process of cooking eggs destroy the very goodness that our bodies so desperately need as the nature of proteins and fats is altered when exposed to heat. When cooked, the egg protein changes its chemical shape; it is often this process that can be the cause of allergies. Generally when eating raw eggs, any incidence of egg allergy will disappear.

Surprisingly, in spite of 'bad press' raw eggs, organic or at least from a known source of healthy free-range chickens, are an excellent health tonic. The regular consumption of raw eggs will do wonders for your overall health. Exceptionally easy to digest, raw eggs provide a wonderful boost to the immune system, and a completely balanced nutritional package. A good immune system is one of several things the body needs to overcome cancer.

Many people's diets are deficient in high quality proteins and fats, and eggs are one the very best sources of these. Raw eggs have many benefits, they contain essential nutrients for the brain, nerves, glands and hormones, they are nutritionally balanced, and we highly recommend the addition of raw eggs to your nutritional programme. The sulphur amino acids help to keep you young, raw eggs also contain an abundance of other vital substances including protein, essential fatty acids along with niacin, riboflavin, biotin, choline, vitamins A, D and E, magnesium, potassium, phosphorous, manganese, iron, iodine, copper, zinc and sulphur. Egg yolks are one of the few foods that contain vitamin D.

Poisoning from salmonella has been exaggerated in the past. A study by the U.S. Department of Agriculture in 2002 indicated that only 2.3 million, of the 69 billion eggs produced annually, are contaminated with salmonella. In other words 0.003% or 1 in every 30,000 eggs. The bulk of these come from battery chicken eggs and chickens kept in unhealthy conditions - only sick chickens lay salmonella contaminated eggs. If only healthy chicken eggs (organic and free range ideally) are consumed, then far less than one in 30,000 eggs are contaminated. Salmonella is a common micro-organism found almost everywhere, and is just as likely, or more likely, to proliferate on cooked food kept in the fridge. Infection is normally mild gastric symptoms, but in rare cases where the immune system is very low such in the elderly who have had much anti-biotic use, and the source is greatly contaminated, death can result. But such a person is highly lightly to contract one of many common micro-organisms and die from that. To give some perspective, in the highly unusual situation of contracting Salmonella, in a healthy person, an infection is nothing to worry about and is easily treated with high quality pro-biotics every half an hour until you feel better.

Method of Consuming Raw Eggs

From day one of starting raw eggs, your immune system becomes stronger and health will improve. We recommend Zell Oxygen as a key supplement for overall health enhancement. Three raw eggs a day (this will take the place of one meal), seems to be the preferred amount taken by people who regularly consume raw eggs. It is sensible to build up the amount of raw eggs consumed gradually. They are best taken by breaking them into a cup and swallowing whole. It can be helpful to cut through the yolk with a knife to make it easier to swallow, If you have a mental problem with swallowing raw eggs, (they are almost tasteless and easy to swallow) blend with a little goats or sheep's milk or even avocado, but ideally raw eggs should not be blended as the molecular structure is damaged. Inspect the egg, if it has been cracked do not use it, once broken into the cup or blender smell it, if it smells off do not use it.

It is best to keep eggs un-refrigerated, but in a cool place. Refrigeration can destroy the vital amino acids in raw eggs and can also disguise the distinctive smell of an egg that has gone off.

Raw Eggs and Cholesterol

There is no danger from the cholesterol build up since 2/3 of cholesterol in the body is produced by the liver. The amount of cholesterol consumed in the diet does not relate to the amount of cholesterol deposited. Many studies have shown that the cholesterol in eggs does not raise cholesterol level in the body. Furthermore, eggs contain Lecithin, a valuable nutrient that helps the body to process fats and cholesterol.

Eggs contain valuable fat needed to keep us healthy. On the other hand heated or processed fats are converted into Trans-fats - toxic chemicals that harden in the body, around every cell and clog the circulation. Margarine contains an abundance of Trans-fats and is not part of a healthy diet. Do not be afraid of that natural product that has been eaten with no adverse effects for thousands of years, butter. The initial report that cholesterol in foods leads to health problems was released to the press without scientific validation, and has since been proven by hundreds of scientists and studies around the world to be completely false. The only benefits from the initial press release were to the margarine and vegetable oil industries.

Raw Eggs and Biotin Deficiency

Nature created an egg to be a balanced live food - as long as you eat the biotin rich yolk along with the white, there is no risk of a biotin deficiency.

Quote from the book "The Recipe for Living Without Disease" By Aajonus Vonderplanitz

Free range (ideally from healthy chickens, including organically certified, even better are fertile eggs).

"Raw eggs are one of the best compact foods in nature. Eggs are the ultimate, complete fast food. However the protein in eggs is not utilised for cellular reproduction. They are utilised for regeneration and maintenance. The relationship between raw eggs and salmonella poisoning is a myth"

(Reference the great egg panic by Emily Green, LA R times Jan 2000)

Eggs are remarkable for everyone especially the infirm. Three years ago a medical doctor called me on a Thursday evening about her 70 yr old female patient with emphysema. She explained that her patient had been mainly bed-ridden for two years, was on 100% oxygen and respiratory machines. She prognosed that her patient would die that weekend unless I could help. I told her that the only thing I thought might help at that late stage was eggs. I recommended that she get her patient 10 dozen raw eggs, and put them on her bed table. I suggested that she ask her patient to eat one as often as she could and that there was no limit. Very early Monday morning, I received a call from the patient. She told me that she was off the machines, out of bed and feeling stronger that she had in years. She had eaten 66 eggs over the weekend.

If eggs are whipped, beaten or blended without raw milk, raw cream, or coconut cream, many of the enzymes are oxidised and lost." It is best to break open the egg into a cup or glass and swallow whole. Most people are repelled by this, but with a little courage it is found to be easy. There is almost no taste and the egg, even big ones are easily swallowed. Generally, I find, 3 to 4 eggs taken in the morning are an important part of my well-being programme. The cholesterol in raw eggs is not deposited in the arteries and is an essential nutrient for aiding health and well-being. The white of the egg has been said to interfere with biotin assimilation, but nature knows best by making the egg yolk very rich in biotin. The egg in its entirety is a very balanced food and only supports health and should be taken in its entirety, yolk and white together


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## aka

Interesting thread, thanks Der


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## VaughnTrue

36 eggs each day would cost considerably more $ than a bottle of Tropinol  lol just saying.

3 dozen eggs/day would run me about $6-$7, over the course of 30 days we're talking $180-$210. I'll take the Tropinol and leave the sulfur farts up to you!


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## aka

a £42 pounds a bottle of unknown chemicals verses eggs.......................

now we know you are a sales rep VaughTrue


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## _Shaun_

Do your homework on the eggs, liver, intensive training approach, then compare what you learn to your, ahem, "results" involving your test persons.

There is no comparison my friend.

In fact I'd wager good money that the consumption of 3 x 40 grain liver tablets per HOUR would lead, (without eggs being consumed) over a 40 day period, to a drastically higher level of new muscle growth - now that is a study you should conduct.

Take 12 guys and give them your Tropinol, take another 12 guys and give them the 40 grain liver tabs to take every hour and take a further 12 guys and give them a placebo. And for the sake of the experiment you could take a further 12 guys and give them both the Tropinol and the liver pills.

If I had to bet my life on the outcome I would bet like this:

1. The group given the liver pills would all significantly show more muscle growth over the duration than the group given the Tropinol.

2. The group given BOTH the Tropinol and the liver pills would show almost an identical growth in new muscle mass to the group who were given just the liver tabs - there "may" be some kind of synergy between the Tropinol and the liver but I hugely doubt it.


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## VaughnTrue

akalatengo said:


> a £42 pounds a bottle of unknown chemicals verses eggs.......................
> 
> now we know you are a sales rep VaughTrue


The product sells for quite a bit less in the states, nothing I can do on the price obviously.

But I never said eggs were not a great way to build muscle. In fact I suggested he continue on his regiment of 36 raw eggs a day if he prefers.

I'm not trying to SELL you guys on anything, only make sure the proper information is understood in regards to the product. I have used and truly believe in the product as have thousands of happy customers.

On top of that, we have clinical studies and ACTUAL human blood work to back it up.

If after all that, you still don't believe the product works...you can check user reviews(which are glowing).

And if still after all that you don't believe the product works...eat more eggs.


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## VaughnTrue

_Shaun_ said:


> Do your homework on the eggs, liver, intensive training approach, then compare what you learn to your, ahem, "results" involving your test persons.
> 
> There is no comparison my friend.
> 
> In fact I'd wager good money that the consumption of 3 x 40 grain liver tablets per HOUR would lead, (without eggs being consumed) over a 40 day period, to a drastically higher level of new muscle growth - now that is a study you should conduct.
> 
> Take 12 guys and give them your Tropinol, take another 12 guys and give them the 40 grain liver tabs to take every hour and take a further 12 guys and give them a placebo. And for the sake of the experiment you could take a further 12 guys and give them both the Tropinol and the liver pills.
> 
> If I had to bet my life on the outcome I would bet like this:
> 
> 1. The group given the liver pills would all significantly show more muscle growth over the duration than the group given the Tropinol.
> 
> 2. The group given BOTH the Tropinol and the liver pills would show almost an identical growth in new muscle mass to the group who were given just the liver tabs - there "may" be some kind of synergy between the Tropinol and the liver but I hugely doubt it.


you set up and fund the study. if the liver pills beat tropinol, i'll pay for all the expenses of the study + give you double for your own wallet.


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## _Shaun_

Reviews do tend to be glowing when you give away free samples of your product, that's an old marketing trick that's been around for decades.


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## VaughnTrue

_Shaun_ said:


> Reviews do tend to be glowing when you give away free samples of your product, that's an old marketing trick that's been around for decades.


Well then I suggest you follow the non-sponsored logs of the product of which there are many


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## 3752

VaughnTrue said:


> I can totally understand why a lot of people are skeptical. A lot of products in the past have made huge claims and failed miserably. In my opinion, the reason for this is weak research prior to bringing the correct compounds to market. With Bulbine Natalensis/ProLensis, it took about 2 years of testing and retesting before it was known without a doubt this stuff will actually work. iForce Nutrition has blood work showing its increased, and ProLensis does as well.
> 
> All I can do for now is show you the studies from Dr. Yakuba, assure you that ProLensis is IDENTICAL to what was used in the study, and show you results from other members. So far the results have been outstanding. I have seen MAYBE 4-5 non-responders to it, but every other user has given it glowing remarks.
> 
> Here's one from the other day, his sn is ZB126 on modernfitnessforum.
> 
> So in only 40 days a user, this guy put 1.25" on his chest, 2" on his shoulders, .75" on his arms, and gained 5lbs of muscle(claims he looks leaner as well).
> 
> I don't think I can chalk that up to placebo...


 Have you got any pictures please as this is a big gain in 4 weeks......


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## VaughnTrue

Pscarb said:


> Have you got any pictures please as this is a big gain in 4 weeks......


I agree it is a big gain.

here's a link to his log:

http://www.modernfitnessforum.com/supplement-reviews-logs/11920-zb126-returns-40-days-tropinol.html


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## Der

Guys, I appreciate people opinions and inputs, but come on, please dont start wars in my log. I will try the supplement and tell you my honest opinion. For example I have tried Maximize v2 and did not like it - did not do anything for me. Thats an honest opinion. If I will see benefits of Tropinol - I will say so. If it will be junk - I will also say so. I have been in the game for a while and know the rules, therefore dont expect to gain 6 lbs in 1 month


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## criticalbench

Der said:


> Guys, I appreciate people opinions and inputs, but come on, please dont start wars in my log. I will try the supplement and tell you my honest opinion. For example I have tried Maximize v2 and did not like it - did not do anything for me. Thats an honest opinion. If I will see benefits of Tropinol - I will say so. If it will be junk - I will also say so. I have been in the game for a while and know the rules, therefore dont expect to gain 6 lbs in 1 month


good stuff bro, honesty is all that matters. I am glad to see your patient and understand 30lbs in one month from an otc product isn't possible!  . Best of luck, hope it works out for you. I am more shocked that your didn't like maxmize v2 though. Either you have a high tolerance, or god only knows as it usually gets great reviews! Just shows how different we all are.

Mike


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## Der

Mate, maybe Maximize v2 is good for 70-80% of people, but I do have a very high tolerance. Not even very high - extremely high. I take 2.5 scoops of Jack3d once of twice a week and the next week I dont feel it. The only thing that works for me all the time is APS Mesomorph and it beats iforce Maximize v2 in all aspects - pump, energy etc.

With Tropinol - time will tell. I will start on Monday and wait for results.


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## engineered

Good luck. Running it myself now. Got tempted and bought. Been on two days now. If it is as good as Triazole I will be very happy.


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## _Shaun_

Didn't Iforce at one time make their own line of PH's, or am I thinking of another company with a similar name?


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## _Shaun_

I've started a second P-Mag cycle as of Thursday.

I was so impressed with the first cycle I've decided to run it again instead of choosing H-Drol.

I think for my third cycle I'll run H-Drol and then compare the two.

Call me crazy but I shan't be using Tropinol for PCT.

Maybe in time we'll find that Tropinal is an effective OCT PCT Assist type product for the milder PH's like the two I've just mentioned.

Has anyone ever ran something like CEL's PCT Assist as a standalone supplement to see just what, if any, muscle building capabilities it has?

Maybe the results of that experiment might be an indicator as to the benefits, if any, that one might find when using the Tropinol product.


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## 3752

Der said:


> Mate, maybe Maximize v2 is good for 70-80% of people, but I do have a very high tolerance. Not even very high - extremely high. I take 2.5 scoops of Jack3d once of twice a week and the next week I dont feel it. The only thing that works for me all the time is APS Mesomorph and it beats iforce Maximize v2 in all aspects - pump, energy etc.
> 
> With Tropinol - time will tell. I will start on Monday and wait for results.


good luck with the cycle mate, are you getting bloods done or relying on the old fashion way of how it makes you look and feel..??


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## VaughnTrue

_Shaun_ said:


> Didn't Iforce at one time make their own line of PH's, or am I thinking of another company with a similar name?


We did indeed sell PH's. We no longer do due to recent FDA mandates.



_Shaun_ said:


> I've started a second P-Mag cycle as of Thursday.
> 
> I was so impressed with the first cycle I've decided to run it again instead of choosing H-Drol.
> 
> I think for my third cycle I'll run H-Drol and then compare the two.
> 
> Call me crazy but I shan't be using Tropinol for PCT.
> 
> Maybe in time we'll find that Tropinal is an effective OCT PCT Assist type product for the milder PH's like the two I've just mentioned.
> 
> Has anyone ever ran something like CEL's PCT Assist as a standalone supplement to see just what, if any, muscle building capabilities it has?
> 
> Maybe the results of that experiment might be an indicator as to the benefits, if any, that one might find when using the Tropinol product.


I think Tropinol would absolutely be a great way to assist in PCT. A member on anabolicminds.com used it in his PCT with some other normal PCT stuff, but ended up with >1200 testosterone(test limit...couldn't tell how high it was past that ha).


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## 3752

VaughnTrue said:


> We did indeed sell PH's. We no longer do due to recent FDA mandates.
> 
> I think Tropinol would absolutely be a great way to assist in PCT. A member on anabolicminds.com used it in his PCT with some other normal PCT stuff, but ended up with >1200 testosterone(test limit...couldn't tell how high it was past that ha).


how was his LH/FSH levels??


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## _Shaun_

It strikes me as ironic that a supplement company would hit the musclebuilding nail squarely on the head with PH's and then delete them from their inventory.

I know you gave recent FDA mandates as the reason for pulling them, but CEL still make a sizeable range of PH's (as do many other companies I could mention) - these entire PH ranges are all permanently available over here.


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## _Shaun_

Vaughn,

If you ran a cycle of S-Drol (or any S-Drol clone), would you feel confident using Tropinol as a PCT for a PH of that strength?

Do you feel that you'd keep just as many of your gains using Tropinol as you would if you had used Nolva instead?


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## 3752

_Shaun_ said:


> Vaughn,
> 
> If you ran a cycle of S-Drol (or any S-Drol clone), would you feel confident using Tropinol as a PCT for a PH of that strength?
> 
> Do you feel that you'd keep just as many of your gains using Tropinol as you would if you had used Nolva instead?


PCT is more than recovery of test levels, you can have raised test levels but still not be recovered as other parts of the HPTA have not recovered hence my question about LH and FSH levels?


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## VaughnTrue

_Shaun_ said:


> It strikes me as ironic that a supplement company would hit the musclebuilding nail squarely on the head with PH's and then delete them from their inventory.
> 
> I know you gave recent FDA mandates as the reason for pulling them, but CEL still make a sizeable range of PH's (as do many other companies I could mention) - these entire PH ranges are all permanently available over here.


If we could sell them...we would.

They are in fact 100% illegal to produce under USA GMP/DSHEA guidelines.

Anyone who continued to make PH's after bb.com and iForce got raided is going to be up a creek without a paddle against the FDA. there will be serious jail sentences coming soon.

iForce now and forever will only release 100% DSHEA compliant products.


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## VaughnTrue

_Shaun_ said:


> Vaughn,
> 
> If you ran a cycle of S-Drol (or any S-Drol clone), would you feel confident using Tropinol as a PCT for a PH of that strength?
> 
> Do you feel that you'd keep just as many of your gains using Tropinol as you would if you had used Nolva instead?


I think it's an awesome addition to any PCT, but do not believe it should/can replace Rx's.


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## Der

Nah, no bloodwork. I am relying on my workout diary - I think thats the only thing in this world that never lies. I input every set, every rep and weight that I do when I get back home from the gym.

Btw, wanted to ask one of the reps.. I wake up at 8.00 and my workout is at 11.00. Shall I take one cap after I wake up and one before the workout or one when I wake up and the other one some time around 4 pm?


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## Der

*Day 1*

So, first day. Went to the gym, hit a new PB on Hor. DB presses. Incline went **** though, because I hit failure previously. Weighted chins and back went as usual, generally happy. So far nothing to report, since its the first day. In the evening I am going sparring, so its quite a hard day for me today. Sorry, would have gone into details, but due to the nature of the supplement, there really is nothing to say at this point.


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## Kev1980

Still watching


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## VaughnTrue

Der said:


> *Day 1*
> 
> So, first day. Went to the gym, hit a new PB on Hor. DB presses. Incline went **** though, because I hit failure previously. Weighted chins and back went as usual, generally happy. So far nothing to report, since its the first day. In the evening I am going sparring, so its quite a hard day for me today. Sorry, would have gone into details, but due to the nature of the supplement, there really is nothing to say at this point.


i know i asked before but didn't see your response...

how much do you weigh?


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## Der

Sorry mate, have not seen your question! Around 82 kg. On the photo in my profile I am a bit heavier, around 90 kg, but that was a while ago. Now I am a bit bigger and leaner.


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## VaughnTrue

Der said:


> Sorry mate, have not seen your question! Around 82 kg. On the photo in my profile I am a bit heavier, around 90 kg, but that was a while ago. Now I am a bit bigger and leaner.


You're right on the line for how many pills to take per day. If you would be interested, I'd love to see you take this at 2/day for the next 2 weeks, and then to up it to 3/day. I will work with Predator to get you an extra bottle to see how you feel the difference if you'd like.


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## Der

Sure, I would like that. Especially since with some other test boosters (activate xtreme), higher dosages worked much better for me. So 2 pills for 2 weeks, then 3 pills.


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## Der

*Day 2*

So, second day on Tropinol. Today I did legs and delts. I have upped my squat by 2.5 kg and added two reps on seated db presses (same weight though). I am quite satisfied with todays workout. I have not noticed anything outstanding about the supplement yet, however this was expected since most of the loggers only notice it kicking in after 2 weeks of use. The results so far I attribute to my effort, hard work and FOOOOOOD  Never the less stay tuned, I will post detailed updates.

PS: Oh sorry all, I have forgotten to mention another supplement I am taking. I also take Gut Health by RPN and have been taking it for the last 6 month. Just wanted to add this little detail so the log is as objective as possible.


----------



## Der

*Day 3*

Cardio today. Did some running, felt really tired by the end of it, since I tend to push myself quite a lot every cardio session. Nothing new to report, will keep you all updated as soon as there will be something worth mentioning.


----------



## m118

Thanks for the updates, keen to see how bulbine works out.


----------



## Der

No worries, you are welcome.

*Day 4*

Slept really well last night. Not sure whether its the result of Tropinol, will have to see how it goes in the next few weeks. Went to the gym, did my normal workout, something went wrong, deadlift went all f*cked up (my grip gave up, I think my lifting straps are a bit too thick), so I just moved on to the next exercise. The rest of the workout went quite well. Have not noticed any strength gains yet. The only other thing I have noticed is a slight outbreak of acne on my face, which is really unusual for me, so when I see 2-3 spots I notice it. Lets see how it goes for the next few weeks.


----------



## m118

I know its early, but any change in libido or focus?


----------



## Der

Not yet.


----------



## 3752

nice to see the updates mate....

i have done some digging and there are 2 human studies underway at the moment on this Bulbine so interesting to see the results of those.....


----------



## Der

I know, there are lots of arguments going on etc, I am just trying to stay away from all the scientific stuff and purely focus on how I feel


----------



## m118

^ good call.


----------



## Der

*Day 5*

Ok now I can say that my sleep is improved as a result of Tropinol for sure. I woke up 1 hour earlier than I should have, and felt really refreshed. Tried to go back to sleep, but simply did not want to sleep any more. I think, actually I am pretty sure that my libido is increasing. Not by a huge margin (since its quite high all the time, even without supplements), but there is a slight increase. Went to the gym, noticed slight soreness in my joints (which wasnt really there before, may this be a result of lower estrogen? Not sure what Tropinol does to estrogen). Training was ok, squeezed out 1 more rep on weighted dips - thats enough to keep me happy. Acne is better than yesterday. Feeling good and hungry.


----------



## 3752

it does lower estrogen but it should not lower it that much your joints hurt...


----------



## Der

Well it was nothing extreme. Before when I tried Triazole my joints were much more sore even at minimal dosage.


----------



## Der

*Day 6*

Went to do muay thai today, everything going well so far. I love the sleep on Tropinol, deep and nice. I hope it continues throughout the cycle, because i wake up so nicely refreshed and it feels great. Otherwise nothing new to report.


----------



## m118

^ deeper sleep is excellent

early days still


----------



## criticalbench

Pscarb said:


> it does lower estrogen but it should not lower it that much your joints hurt...


Agreed 100%  .

OP, glad you are doing this, hoping for the best but please be honest, we appreciate that even if it is not what we want to hear.

Mike


----------



## 3752

criticalbench said:


> Agreed 100%  .
> 
> OP, glad you are doing this, hoping for the best but please be honest, we appreciate that even if it is not what we want to hear.
> 
> Mike


Props mate, probably the best post I have seen from any iForce rep


----------



## Der

*Day 7*

Well its a rest day (the only one I have a week  ), but I'll still post an update. Once again, as mentioned before, libido is slightly up and the acne situation is getting better (the 2-3 spots that Ive had before almost disappeared). Slept pretty well, feel nice and refreshed. I wonder how an improvement in sleep will improve my workouts, will find out next week. Otherwise everything as usual.


----------



## criticalbench

Pscarb said:


> Props mate, probably the best post I have seen from any iForce rep


I'm real, what can I say  . I'd be more concerned if everyone loved it since we are all very different. I personally judge my supplements by experience use, not clinical trials, research, etc. I don't care what that stuff says, I care what you and I have to say.

Mike


----------



## Der

*Day 8*

Sleep is great just as usual. Went to the gym, workout went well, not PB's except for DB rows (51 kg each hand by 10 reps), I will introduce some changes in my routine, so tomorrow will be rest day, wednesday will be legs + some delts and thursday will be chest and biceps. Sparring this evening as usual. All the spots are gone, joints dont bother that much any more. Feeling great. Everything else is pretty much the same, incuding vascularity and pump - no change. Its hard to explain the effects of tropinol so far... Its just... I feel better. Just general well being.


----------



## VaughnTrue

Der said:


> *Day 8*
> 
> Sleep is great just as usual. Went to the gym, workout went well, not PB's except for DB rows (51 kg each hand by 10 reps), I will introduce some changes in my routine, so tomorrow will be rest day, wednesday will be legs + some delts and thursday will be chest and biceps. Sparring this evening as usual. All the spots are gone, joints dont bother that much any more. Feeling great. Everything else is pretty much the same, incuding vascularity and pump - no change. Its hard to explain the effects of tropinol so far... Its just... I feel better. Just general well being.


Glad to see you're enjoying the product. Really awesome updates so far.

How is your diet right now? Pro/Cho/Fat macros?


----------



## Der

Diet... I am bulking, so eating pretty much everything I see. But only "clean" food, no junk etc. A lot of very clean food. I dont count nutrients, just make sure I get around 40 g of protein, 10 grams of fat and 80 carbs per meal or smt like that. Generally a day I get around 200-220 grams of protein, 300-400 grams of carbs and around 70-100 grams of fat.


----------



## Der

*Day 9*

As I have said before, today will be an unplanned rest day and tomorrow will be legs+delts. Thursday will be Chest+Triceps. Woke up on time today, felt quite nice, deep sleep feels great. Another strange thing that I am starting to notice is an increase in hair growth. So far thats it.


----------



## 3752

criticalbench said:


> I'm real, what can I say  . I'd be more concerned if everyone loved it since we are all very different. I personally judge my supplements by experience use, not clinical trials, research, etc. I don't care what that stuff says, I care what you and I have to say.
> 
> Mike


refreshing to hear Mike.....i much prefer real time experiances and use of a product to evaluate how good it is.....


----------



## criticalbench

Pscarb said:


> refreshing to hear Mike.....i much prefer real time experiances and use of a product to evaluate how good it is.....


good to hear! IMO it just makes a lot more sense.


----------



## Der

*Day 10 *

So far everything is good. Did legs and delts, no PB's, just and extra rep on seated db presses. Overall feeling very good, I think I am starting to notice a bit more pump during my workouts - I generally feel a bit "fuller". Nothing significant atm, but will see how it goes later on this week and next week.


----------



## JayJo

Sounds good thus far.


----------



## Der

*Day 11*

Had a great workout today. No PB's but instead of starting with weighted dips, I did incline db press first (not to failure), and then weighted dips. Managed to do exactly the same number of reps and the same weight as if I would have if weighted dips would have been the first exercise. I start to feel that my muscles became a bit fuller, the pump is slightly better. Its hard to explain, its not the same pump as you get from a preworkout, instead imagine doing keto for 2 weeks and the doing a carb load. Similar fullness. Really looking forward to dosing it @ 3 caps starting next week!


----------



## m118

sounds like its picking up nicely!

iforce might be on a cracker here!


----------



## Der

*Day 12*

Rest day. Nothing new to report. Tomorrow - muay thai.


----------



## skaman007

Der said:


> *Day 12*
> 
> Rest day. Nothing new to report. Tomorrow - muay thai.


how does it compare so far to triazole?


----------



## Der

*Day 13*

Cardio, rope, muay thai, technical work on pads, some conditioning today. Felt nice and energised throughout the day.

About Triazole... Tropinol feels better. Not by a huge amount, but I just really like the way I sleep. Also I never felt that good overall on Triazole. I mean, yeah I did see some effects, but Tropinol just seems to make a bigger impact. Its not a tonn of difference, but there is some. And strength gains... Well those are not steroids, so its not like strength goes through the roof anyway. So I would stick with Tropinol because I trust my senses.

I am still not sure about the dosage for next week. VaughnTrue asked to up the dosage to 3 caps and he will provide a free bottle, but since I have not heard from him since, I would probably stick to 2 caps.


----------



## Der

*Day 14*

Rest day, nothing new to report. Will post a detailed update tomorrow (chest + back).


----------



## flapjack

Sounds like interesting stuff. Subbed.


----------



## synthasize

Subbed

Sent from my Desire HD using Tapatalk


----------



## Der

*Day 15*

Chest + Back today. Felt really nice and fresh, despite the fact that I travelled for 90 miles from London to Colchester. No PR's just a solid workout with good strength and pumps.


----------



## Der

*Day 16 and 17*

Yesterday I had a rest day, while today I was doing legs and delts. Legs went fine, nothing new to report, but as soon as I started doing delts, I realised that todays workout is actually great. I managed to squeeze out 2 more reps in seated db press and fly's seemed easy too. Since I am not a beginner and the weight I am lifting is not always light - 2 reps is quite an improvement. Sleep is still great and libido is up. No joint pain.


----------



## predatorN

Great feedback so far.


----------



## Der

*Day 18*

Great workout today, hit a PB on weighted dips, by adding another 2.5 kg on my belt, which actually broke down (I guess its an indicator of hard training  ). Felt really strong on all the other exercises, nice vascularity and great fullness. Libido - still up, as well as sleep.


----------



## skaman007

Der said:


> *Day 18*
> 
> Great workout today, hit a PB on weighted dips, by adding another 2.5 kg on my belt, which actually broke down (I guess its an indicator of hard training  ). Felt really strong on all the other exercises, nice vascularity and great fullness. Libido - still up, as well as sleep.


marks outa ten so far?and do you think it would be better ran for 8 wks to get the most out of it?


----------



## RickMiller

Great log thus far, have you ever used Activate Extreme Der?


----------



## Der

Yeah Ive used ActivateXtreme before, but it was only effective at 6 caps per day, so Tropinol is a bit less costly. Effects are very similar, though on ActivateXtreme I felt like my muscles are more full, but the sleep was not as good, as with Tropinol.

Skaman007 - probably. I mean lets look at this from a realistic point of view. You are paying 40 quid per bottle and only start to notice the difference by the end of second week or so. Therefore in the next two weeks that are left I doubt you will see many strength gains. 8 weeks is probably a good idea. If someone will ask me to rank it at the moment, I would probably give Tropinol 7/10. Why? Well, lets look at the benefits:

1) Better Sleep

2) Better Recovery - not intra set recovery and lack of DOMS, but instead just general well being

3) Libido - but come on if you are a healthy male, I am sure its not much of a problem

4) Muscle fullness and potential strength gains.

On the cons side we have price. I my opinion the product is also overpriced. £40-42 for 4 weeks is quite a lot. Including the fact that some people would need to bump up the dosage to 3 caps, the product is pretty damn expensive.


----------



## Der

*Day 19 and 20*

Have been doing lots of muay thai those two days. Lots of pad work, kicks, punches, light sparring and a hell of a lot of cardio and conditioning. Feeling good so far. Tomorrow is a rest day, so I am really looking forward to that...


----------



## Fatstuff

wouldnt it be cheaper to get warrior bulbine from bbw


----------



## Der

No clue what that is tbh.

*Days 21 and 22*

Yesterday was a rest day and today was chest and back. Omg after all that cardio and sparring, weight training seems like a walk in the park!  Managed to do 1 more rep than usual on Horizontal Db Presses and Weighted Pull Ups. Feeling great and strong. I really enjoy the deep refreshing sleep. I know Ive said it before, but its just such a nice change  Otherwise things are as usual.


----------



## predatorN

Der - Why do you do so much cardio when weight training?


----------



## Der

Well... I feel better when I do cardio. Being fit is not just about looking fit. Plus in my opinion, training just for the sake of getting big muscles is kind of pointless. Whats the point if you cant apply it in a real sport? I really like MMA, Muay thai etc, so I need good cardio for that. Just dont want to be one of those big guys, who are big and strong, but gas out after going up the stairs to the 5th floor. I also dont think that cardio hinders my gains (I eat a lot to compensate).


----------



## criticalbench

Der said:


> Well... I feel better when I do cardio. Being fit is not just about looking fit. Plus in my opinion, training just for the sake of getting big muscles is kind of pointless. Whats the point if you cant apply it in a real sport? I really like MMA, Muay thai etc, so I need good cardio for that. Just dont want to be one of those big guys, who are big and strong, but gas out after going up the stairs to the 5th floor. I also dont think that cardio hinders my gains (I eat a lot to compensate).


Good to hear bro! We are all so different, for me being a bodybuilder, size in everything and personally I could care less about my stamina. For someone like yourself though, what is nothing to me is everything to you.

mike


----------



## hackskii

Subscribed.

Der, you have put on some weight right?

I think you suggested you are eating more or something?

Better sleep will aid in recovery.


----------



## Der

Yeah, in the last 6-7 month I have put on some muscle, as well as a bit of fat (still leaner than in my profile pics, I have posted a more recent picture of myself somewhere on this forum, but cant find it now). I am eating more, I am trying to eat about 4000 calories a day.

If you are asking, whether I have put on some weight since I have started using Tropinol - not really, it has only been 22 days (and the bottle is almost over), obviously its just a supplement and your body cant really sunthesize much muscle in 22 days  As I have outlined before, I have hit some PB's (but obviously its not like I have increased all my major lifts by 25 kg  ), deeper sleep, good recovery (in fact very good), libido etc.


----------



## Der

*Day 23 and 24*

Rested yesterday. Today did legs and delts, hit a PB on seated db presses. Fly's seemed really easy as usual. Feeling good!


----------



## Der

*Day 25*

I am getting slightly ill, which sucks donkey balls, still went to the gym though. Nothing new to say, strength is the same, just felt **** because of all the cold sweat and a blocked nose.


----------



## m118

^ seems like the majority of my friends are getting colds at the mo.


----------



## Der

*Days 26 and 27*

Just back from muay thai... Too exhausted to type. 2 caps of Tropinol left. Will write a full review today.


----------



## Der

Ok guys. Tomorrow will be my last day and it will be a rest day, so obviously I am no going to turn into Incredible Hulk  Here comes the final review.

I will give Tropinol 7/10. Let me clarify. During the course I did have some PB's, I did sleep great, recovery seemed very good, I felt fuller etc. The only other test booster I have tried was Activate Xtreme, which I ran with Triazole. Tbh these seem like different products, because they benefited different aspects of my training. Basically no other supplement ever gave me such a great sleep throughout the whole course. On other supplements there were bad nights and good nights. In case of Tropinol EVERY SINGLE night I had great sleep. Some PB's, nothing super special, but I also have to say that there was a good feeling of the generall well being. Even when I got a cold I did not feel as bad as it generally feels when someone gets a cold.

If Tropinol would have been cheaper (around £30) I would have definitely given it 8.5/10. Obviously its just a supplement so I never expected to gain 25 kg on my squat after 4 weeks  Also want to point out that I am an 84 kg guys, who was running it at 2 caps per day. May be at a higher dosage (3 caps) it would have been even more effective. However given the price, running it at a higher dosage is stupidly expensive. Generally I am quite pleased with Tropinol.


----------



## hackskii

How much weight did you gain?

I noticed your personal bests were in military press?

Did you focus more on military press once you started noticing gains?

Was your training modified at all during you taking this product?


----------



## Der

Well just went on the scale - 84.6 kg (0.6 kg) - but thats in the middle of the day. I mean, its unrealistic to assume that even a 200% increase in test production will put 5 kg on me in 4 weeks (plus, physiologically a 100-200% increase in test production is not going to make a massive difference in the course of 4 weeks). I did modify my workout routine in the middle of the cycle - yes. But its nothing new, I only changed the order of days. Ive done it before, I know what to expect. No new exercises, nothing.

I did not do military press, I was doing seated db presses. And no, I did not focus on it. In fact I was more inclined to increase the number of reps instead of the weight. I am actually using very light db's - 36 kg each atm, because I find it easier to fight and keep my hands up when I focus on more reps rather than weight.


----------



## hackskii

So, you were at 81kg now you are at 84.6 at the end of the day on the scale?

So, net gain of so that is 7 pounds?

Remember though, you can easily gain 5 pounds from the morning to afternoon.

You didnt add weight but added a few reps after a month?

Surely this could be a natural progression after a month?

Not trying to sound like a skeptic but these gains can be done fairly easily and even more within nothing but training and a slight increase in food.


----------



## Der

hackskii said:


> So, you were at 81kg now you are at 84.6 at the end of the day on the scale?
> 
> So, net gain of so that is 7 pounds?
> 
> Remember though, you can easily gain 5 pounds from the morning to afternoon.
> 
> You didnt add weight but added a few reps after a month?
> 
> Surely this could be a natural progression after a month?
> 
> Not trying to sound like a skeptic but these gains can be done fairly easily and even more within nothing but training and a slight increase in food.


Mate its 81-84 ish. My weight fluctuates like crazy. To be fair I prefer to say that I am 84, because most mornings I am 84, but I can be 81, 82, whatever. Its was 81 at the time I measured it. The next morning it could have easily been 83. So in my opinion its a 0.6 kg gain. Because of this fluctuation I judge by the weights I am lifting and not by the weight.

About strenght you are absolutely right - I saw expected gains, not bad at all, but obviously nothing out of the ordinary. And I did add weight in some exercises (weighted dips for example).

About the skepticism - yeah, definitely mate. You are right, as I have said I obviously did not turn into a monster or anything. Thats why I didnt give the supplement 10/10 and didnt say it was a magic pill. The good thing was the sleep and recovery. My training is tough, as I said I train with weights and at the same time do muay thai. So there is quite a bit of cardio. Its important to wake up an be mentally ready.


----------



## hackskii

Trust me, I do hear you totally.

I will give you an example of what low dose gear does for me just for numbers sake.

I always get between 7 and 10 reps with 225 lbs on bench press and have for the last 30 years. Pretty much that is my genetic limit during training.

If just 10mg of dbol pretty much replaces natty levels and just 20mg of dbol a day sends my bench to 16 reps with same weight in just one month, that is kind of impressive.

Drop the dbol and do a PCT it goes back to natty levels.

Doubling my reps after a month of just 20mg dbol is pretty impressive.

I never use creatine and last time I used it (V12), I noticed strength gains...........

Same with my brother, about same reps and 30 days after "The One" low dose he got 16 reps.

So, aside of the added placebo effects and the added mental focus you think you are getting, you no doubt will add something to the table with a supplement.

But if things work, you will know and will notice.

When I am on even low dose cycles I have to diet to keep the same weight, that is how much my weight is influenced.

When I use 500mg testosterone a week I gain weight even with less calories and bang much more weight, and that is a moderate cycle for me.

I look fwd to a test booster that leaves me saying hell yah.

All I have used leaves me saying hell no.

I have trained for over 35 years, nothing surprises me but I am still looking for that magic bullet that alludes me.

DAA looks the best, but hell every single time I use that stuff just one hour later and I get massive gastric distress, then to the bathroom with foamy orange poop.

I dont care if it gave me steroid like gains, that just does not work for me:lol:

Bicarb of soda minimises this some but dang, not acceptable.

Sleep is a great thing, recovery is compromised without this.

Feeling of well being is awesome.

Both of those would be worth taking a supp for.

Melatonin makes me sleep like a rock.

5-HTP works for mood.

muay thai is serious training.


----------



## BBWarehouse

fatmanstan! said:


> wouldnt it be cheaper to get warrior bulbine from bbw





Der said:


> No clue what that is tbh.


Warrior Bulbine is a pure bulbine natalensis supplement containing 500mg of bulbine per tab (the highest dosage available at present in any supplement), and 120 Tabs per tub.


----------



## JayJo

BBWarehouse said:


> Warrior Bulbine is a pure bulbine natalensis supplement containing 500mg of bulbine per tab (the highest dosage available at present in any supplement), and 120 Tabs per tub.


Not bad, but it's not standardized and therefore you actually don't know how much of the active ingredients you are getting from your 500mg per tab... 

And bulbine natalensis is something you don't want to overdose, because it's getting counterproductive in higher doses.

That's why products like Tropinol and/or Phytoserms are superior to pure bulbine natalensis. Just my two cents


----------



## VaughnTrue

^^^ Agreed.

To be quite frank, 500mg/day of pure bulbine is too much for many people.


----------



## 3752

what is the corect standerdised dose of bulbine?

what dose was used in all the studies that are being quoted?

What dose is in Tropinal?


----------



## JayJo

Pscarb said:


> what is the corect standerdised dose of bulbine?
> 
> *what dose was used in all the studies that are being quoted?*
> 
> What dose is in Tropinal?


25 and 50 mg/kg bodyweight of a bulbine natalensis extract (Prolensis?!).


----------



## VaughnTrue

JayJo said:


> 25 and 50 mg/kg bodyweight of a bulbine natalensis extract (Prolensis?!).


correct, the same exact thing that is called ProLensis.

before someone asks, 25-50mg/kg in a rat does not equate to 25-50mg/kg in a human. To translate the numbers from rats to humans, you need to account for BSA(body surface area).

rat HED: 6

human HED: 37

6/37 = .162

.162 x 25(mg) = 4.05mg/kg of weight in a human.

to

.162 x 50(mg)= 8.10mg/kg of weight in a human.

So for the average 180lbs guy, this would equate to 81.81kg which would mean he would need between 331mg-662mg per day.

I believe this is on the high side to be honest. I've seen some much better results when people back down the dose than when they increase it.


----------



## JayJo

VaughnTrue said:


> correct, the same exact thing that is called ProLensis.
> 
> before someone asks, 25-50mg/kg in a rat does not equate to 25-50mg/kg in a human. To translate the numbers from rats to humans, you need to account for BSA(body surface area).
> 
> rat HED: 6
> 
> human HED: 37
> 
> 6/37 = .162
> 
> .162 x 25(mg) = 4.05mg/kg of weight in a human.
> 
> to
> 
> .162 x 50(mg)= 8.10mg/kg of weight in a human.
> 
> So for the average 180lbs guy, this would equate to 81.81kg which would mean he would need between 331mg-662mg per day.
> 
> I believe this is on the high side to be honest. I've seen some much better results when people back down the dose than when they increase it.


His calculations are based on ProLensis (a standardized bulbine natalensis extract which is used in the studies) and not pure bulbine natalensis!

BTW. Thanks for doing the math Vaughn.


----------



## 3752

VaughnTrue said:


> correct, the same exact thing that is called ProLensis.
> 
> before someone asks, 25-50mg/kg in a rat does not equate to 25-50mg/kg in a human. To translate the numbers from rats to humans, you need to account for BSA(body surface area).
> 
> rat HED: 6
> 
> human HED: 37
> 
> 6/37 = .162
> 
> .162 x 25(mg) = 4.05mg/kg of weight in a human.
> 
> to
> 
> .162 x 50(mg)= 8.10mg/kg of weight in a human.
> 
> So for the average 180lbs guy, this would equate to 81.81kg which would mean he would need between 331mg-662mg per day.
> 
> I believe this is on the high side to be honest. I've seen some much better results when people back down the dose than when they increase it.


so what is the dose per capsule of Tropinol? and how many capsule per serving, how many servings per bottle?


----------



## VaughnTrue

Pscarb said:


> so what is the dose per capsule of Tropinol? and how many capsule per serving, how many servings per bottle?


The dose is part of a proprietary blend. One of the perks of working with ProLensis is that we get to see the blood/info the company did on its own to find exact dosing. All I can say is that it its dose properly so that someone <200lbs should take 2/day, and someone >200lbs should take 3/day.

1 pill per serving.

56 servings per bottle.


----------



## 3752

Vaughn it really is a simple question mate how much mg of this extract is in each capsule? you advertise a testosterone increase of 347% from a study carried out on rats, you have given the calculations above to make clear that to get the same results the average 180lb guy would need a minimum of 331mg per day (which equates to 25mg in the study for rats) so am i correct to assume from this and your advertising each capsule contains at least 165.5mg?(this is from you advising 2 capsules for someone below 200lbs) can you confirm this please?

what dose was used on the rats to acheive the advertised 347% increase in Test? was it 25 or 50mg?


----------



## VaughnTrue

Pscarb said:


> Vaughn it really is a simple question mate how much mg of this extract is in each capsule? you advertise a testosterone increase of 347% from a study carried out on rats, you have given the calculations above to make clear that to get the same results the average 180lb guy would need a minimum of 331mg per day (which equates to 25mg in the study for rats) so am i correct to assume from this and your advertising each capsule contains at least 165.5mg?(this is from you advising 2 capsules for someone below 200lbs) can you confirm this please?
> 
> what dose was used on the rats to acheive the advertised 347% increase in Test? was it 25 or 50mg?


No this is not correct, and no I cannot divulge the proprietary blend. End of story. Even if I wanted to, I'm not allowed to say it. You should know this by now.

We noted that the 8mg/kg group for people was way too high. While it worked the best for the rats, we didn't see the same(which is evident with the people using only 1-2 caps/day and seeing great results). I'll sit here and talk Tropinol/BN/ProLensis/anything else you want all day long, but I am not allowed to divulge dosing information that is owned by ProLensis. End of story.


----------



## 3752

now that made me smile....so you place in your advertising that tropinal will raise test by 347% but don't divulge that this study was carried out on rats, then when you have gone to the effort to do the calculations to give what the dose would be in a human to illicit the same gains your product does not even give this amount?? so how can you advertise an increase of 347%?

by the way it is not end of story as you quote studies using a certain dose but then do not let buyers know what percentage of that dose used in studies is in your product.....and you cannot see anything wrong with that??......


----------



## VaughnTrue

Lol at this point I'm pretty sure you're just mentally challenged. How many times do you and I need to dance around the SAME subject? Is your memory bad, or just your learning capacity?

Studies show a potential increase of 347% increase. Our own HUMAN testing showed us a 323% increase with only testing 6 people. As I've said directly to you at least 3 times now, a 347% increase is very possible in humans this is obvious.

I don't think again you understand what in the heck you're talking about here. We showed our end users the exact studies/doses/everything found in the study. We are using the EXACT same ingredients as the study, and have done the time/work to make sure the work to the best of their potential.

The fact that you're a mod here is just laughable. I've seen 1-5 post noobz posting the same question over and over, but a mod? Lol what a joke.


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## 3752

personnel insults now now vaughn play nice  it seems your missing the point......you have not answered one of my questions, we are not dancing around because in this game you cannot dance......

you see you have posted no human studies, you have posted up some data that has been confirmed has come from people you have given the stuff to plus if you remember i asked how it effected LH/FSH levels and you could not answer that question....can you now?

you say you are using the exact doses found in the study but then you will not confirm the dosing in your product....so we take your word for it???

as for the potential increase shown in studies please just for me show me the independent study that showed an increase of 347% in humans not rats.......

the fact you are a rep for a supplement company that cannot seem to answer the very basic questions is laughable at best.......please tell me what good are studies stating doses used when you the rep for the company cannot or will not divulge the dose used in your product? are we to just take your word on it?

so either answer without the insults or do not answer....because i can guarantee you i am a damn site more knowledgeable about this game than you  but you do look nice in your vest


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## JayJo

Sorry for hijacking the discussion but Vaughn has never said something about an independent study that showed an increase of 347% in humans. He only mentioned their in-house testing. (Vaughn correct me if i'm wrong)


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## VaughnTrue

JayJo said:


> Sorry for hijacking the discussion but Vaughn has never said something about an independent study that showed an increase of 347% in humans. He only mentioned their in-house testing. (Vaughn correct me if i'm wrong)


You are correct.

Pscarb, what do you do for a living? Do you have any idea what a contract is/means? I am not allowed to divulge dosing of ProLensis as it is not MY compound to do so with. This is the same reason EVERY company using a ProLensis raw material will not be able to give out the dosing.

You don't think we dosed it properly? Don't take the product.

It's a proprietary blend. Do you know what that word means?


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## 3752

JayJo said:


> Sorry for hijacking the discussion but Vaughn has never said something about an independent study that showed an increase of 347% in humans. He only mentioned their in-house testing. (Vaughn correct me if i'm wrong)


he did not say in humans but he did not say in rats did he? he then went on to boast about there in house study on humans showing nearly the same so his wording was clever to give the impression human studies have shown 347% increase.......but all this being said it is still true that he and his company advertise an increase of 347% for testosterone but do not disclose that figure was in vermin..... 

Vaughn i have also just noticed in your insulting post above where you state that i am mentally challenged......that your own in house study (which was not a study as there was no control) if my memory serves me right one person showed an increase of 323% not all of them so less than 20% before you start throwing your impressive knowledge around please re-read what you have written because non of your studies show impressive results across the board and any person will tell you 6 people taking a supplement in a non controlled environment is not a study it is an opinion


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## 3752

VaughnTrue said:


> You are correct.
> 
> Pscarb, what do you do for a living? Do you have any idea what a contract is/means? I am not allowed to divulge dosing of ProLensis as it is not MY compound to do so with. This is the same reason EVERY company using a ProLensis raw material will not be able to give out the dosing.
> 
> You don't think we dosed it properly? Don't take the product.
> 
> It's a proprietary blend. Do you know what that word means?


i know what a contract is i write them every day but then when i write contracts and sign NDA's i then do not boast something about the contract i cannot disclose, this is the part you are not getting which obviously surprises me as i thought i was the one who was mentally challenged.....you are quoting a study of the effects of the standardized dose of this product so we look at that and believe that in fact that dose(25-50mg) raised test to that degree in rats.......but then you do not disclose how much per cap your supplement gives......can you really not see the problem with this...really??

thats like buying a car because you saw an advert on TV and was impressed with everything about that model but when you go to buy it the car dealer cannot tell you the one you are going to buy is the one in the advert??


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## hackskii

I have a rat, but it is a female one, maybe I should supplement her with this? :lol:

Ok, anyone got FSH and LH levels on this stuff?

Some blood tests were in fact done and the sweeping claim tossed around here was that of rats, so my question is a simple one.

What are the FSH, LH, serum, and free testosterone numbers before and after?


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## VaughnTrue

One end user noted a 100% increase in free testosterone(check out modernfitnessforum, user name TheSolution).

We didn't test for fsh/lh/free test. Tropinol makes no claims whatsoever about any of those.


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## 3752

VaughnTrue said:


> One end user noted a 100% increase in free testosterone(check out modernfitnessforum, user name TheSolution).
> 
> We didn't test for fsh/lh/free test. Tropinol makes no claims whatsoever about any of those.


one user? in how many who used it? what was his originl number of free test?

i am suprised you have not tested for LH/FSH?Free test as these are the important levels to check.......in your study(well not a study but....  ) out of those 6 guys you mentioned one had an increase of 323% did you not check how much of that percentage was made up of free test? if all that 323% was bound what use would that be?

i should thank you really as i was being lazy earlier but after you choose to take a personel dig at me i started to think a little more about the importantance of LH/FSH/FT in the big picture can you not agree these levels are important to the individual taking the supplement?


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## VaughnTrue

I gave you the forums name + the users name who had the results. If you're now super interested, I'm sure you can take the time to go check it out. He went up a full 100%.

Lol you're a joke. I'm done arguing about stuff iForce has never claimed. First we can't reach the 347% mark, then we get within like 15% of that, and then its another thing, and then another. LOL no matter what I do, say, or show you, it won't change your mind and we both know that. I have far better ways to spend my days than falling into your bull**** circuitous arguments.


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## 3752

listen mate you are the joke i have not once insulted you or the product, in fact i think the product has potential i have challenged your claims.....you have insulted my knowledge which is fine i have plenty of Bodybuilding champions to back up that i know what i am doing and how to apply my knowledge.....

you say it yourself in the above post



> First we can't reach the 347% mark


 yet you promote that in your sig but you cannot get that?

and if you actually took your head out of your ass you would see i asked the same questions months ago about LH/FSH and Free test back then you side stepped the questions like you are doing now but that's cool......

so you jog on and go annoy another forum with your bullsh1t claims


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## JayJo

Sorry for hijacking your 'discussion' again, but i think you are beating a dead horse.

He can't answer your FSH/LH question because there have not been any tests done for FSH/LH and this is also nothing iForce claims in their ads. (Vaughn please correct me if i'm wrong) Free test has been tested by TheSolution. http://www.modernfitnessforum.com/supplement-reviews-logs/11158-solution-tests-tropinol-3.html

But i would be happy if every company would do at least one test like iForce did with their tropinol... just my two cents


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## VaughnTrue

Pscarb said:


> listen mate you are the joke i have not once insulted you or the product, in fact i think the product has potential i have challenged your claims.....you have insulted my knowledge which is fine i have plenty of Bodybuilding champions to back up that i know what i am doing and how to apply my knowledge.....
> 
> you say it yourself in the above post yet you promote that in your sig but you cannot get that?
> 
> and if you actually took your head out of your ass you would see i asked the same questions months ago about LH/FSH and Free test back then you side stepped the questions like you are doing now but that's cool......
> 
> so you jog on and go annoy another forum with your bullsh1t claims


"first we can't reach the 347% mark"

you really do have issues. I was referring to the issues YOU had with the product. Please learn how to properly interpret writing.


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## 3752

JayJo said:


> Sorry for hijacking your 'discussion' again, but i think you are beating a dead horse.
> 
> He can't answer your FSH/LH question because there have not been any tests done for FSH/LH and this is also nothing iForce claims in their ads. (Vaughn please correct me if i'm wrong) Free test has been tested by TheSolution. http://www.modernfitnessforum.com/supplement-reviews-logs/11158-solution-tests-tropinol-3.html
> 
> But i would be happy if every company would do at least one test like iForce did with their tropinol... just my two cents


JayJo i respect your replies.....i will say it again as i have doen many times i have not once slated the product but challenged the claims as any one would and should unfortunatly it would seem Vaughn does not like to be challenged for what ever reason........

i have just checked the log made by The Solution and it is an in depth log..........now what ever i say now will be dismissed but here goes.....

he did make good strength gains but had no increase in libido which is strange considering the increase of total and free test??

he mentions an increase of only 1.5lbs in 4 weeks with no change to bodycomp this does suprise me alot as 1.5lbs is not a great increase especially when you consider no change in bodycomp i did expect more.......


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## 3752

VaughnTrue said:


> "first we can't reach the 347% mark"
> 
> you really do have issues. I was referring to the issues YOU had with the product. Please learn how to properly interpret writing.


again with the personel digs and side stepping the questions, maybe you should take a note out of JayJo book 

as for the issues i have it is not with the product are you really that slow.....? i have said it a million times my issue is with you claims that do not add up in the real world.....


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## VaughnTrue

Pscarb, as someone who OBVIOUSLY uses steroids, you're gifted in quick gains over a 4 week time period.

What do you think someone can physically gain within 4 week when not juiced to the gills? Considering his strength increases, and the fact that he is insanely ectomorphic, it was an awesome progress for ONLY 4 WEEKS.

yet again FOUR WEEKS.


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## JayJo

Pscarb said:


> JayJo i respect your replies.....i will say it again as i have doen many times i have not once slated the product but challenged the claims as any one would and should unfortunatly it would seem Vaughn does not like to be challenged for what ever reason........
> 
> i have just checked the log made by The Solution and it is an in depth log..........now what ever i say now will be dismissed but here goes.....
> 
> *he did make good strength gains but had no increase in libido which is strange considering the increase of total and free test??*
> 
> *
> he mentions an increase of only 1.5lbs in 4 weeks with no change to bodycomp this does suprise me alot as 1.5lbs is not a great increase especially when you consider no change in bodycomp i did expect more.......*


Thanks mate. 

His results may be strainge but, results vary from person to person.


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## 3752

VaughnTrue said:


> Pscarb, as someone who OBVIOUSLY uses steroids, you're gifted in quick gains over a 4 week time period.
> 
> What do you think someone can physically gain within 4 week when not juiced to the gills? Considering his strength increases, and the fact that he is insanely ectomorphic, it was an awesome progress for ONLY 4 WEEKS.
> 
> yet again FOUR WEEKS.


Oh NO not the steroid card....please at least come back with something better than that...........ok.....upto two weeks ago, for the last 5 months i have not used any steroids yet went from 196lbs to 220lbs so an increase of just over 4lbs in 4 weeks with no steroids....mmmmmm

now you can start with the excuses like he is ect etc etc......but i never slated the guy i said i expected more when you consider the increase in both total and free test....do you actually read my replies or just go off on a tangent? when you consider the strength gains and the test increase the lack of libido change and an increase of only 1.5lbs is confusing i am sure that everyone will agree with me...well apart from you that is......



JayJo said:


> Thanks mate.
> 
> His results may be strainge but, results vary from person to person.


exactly mate and this is one of my points it is different from person to person DER from this site gained less than 1lb but had better sleep and recovery so for him he said it was worth the trial but expected more....i am sure there will be an occasion where someone gains more which holds up my comment about it being useful but not as good as the claims make out......

boards like UKM have a huge membership and guys like coming on here and other forums like these because we create debate, you cannot expect to come onto this or any other forum worth its salt and not have the claims challenged....it is how the company react to those challenges that sticks in the minds of the buying public........i am sure JayJo your replies will be remembered more positively than the personal attacks made by Vaughn


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## VaughnTrue

So you're saying its physically possible for someone to gain 24lbs of LBM in 4 weeks?

Just want to make sure we're on the same page here.


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## 3752

VaughnTrue said:


> So you're saying its physically possible for someone to gain 24lbs of LBM in 4 weeks?
> 
> Just want to make sure we're on the same page here.


no it would seem that you dont actually read the replies before posting........if you step back take a deep breath then read my post you will see that i said that i went from 196lbs to 220lbs in 5months making that a gain without steroids of just over 4lbs in 4 weeks......  you have just confirmed everything i have said in this whole thread


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## VaughnTrue

LOL wow...it never ends. I'm the one sitting here saying you don't read my posts...now apparently you're the one who said it?

do you take meds? if not, start.


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## JayJo

Pscarb said:


> exactly mate and this is one of my points it is different from person to person DER from this site gained less than 1lb but had better sleep and recovery so for him he said it was worth the trial but expected more....i am sure there will be an occasion where someone gains more which holds up my comment about it being useful but not as good as the claims make out......
> 
> boards like UKM have a huge membership and guys like coming on here and other forums like these because we create debate, you cannot expect to come onto this or any other forum worth its salt and not have the claims challenged....it is how the company react to those challenges that sticks in the minds of the buying public........i am sure JayJo your replies will be remembered more positively than the personal attacks made by Vaughn


Thanks again. 

Next month i'll buy a bottle of Tropinol (on my own!!!) to see how it works for me. I'm very interested in Tropinols/Bulbine Natalensis test boosting potential.


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## 3752

VaughnTrue said:


> LOL wow...it never ends. I'm the one sitting here saying you don't read my posts...now apparently you're the one who said it?
> 
> do you take meds? if not, start.


serouisly stop just typing crap......i think you should leave the rep stuff to someone who knows what they are doing like JayJo.....


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## 3752

JayJo said:


> Thanks again.
> 
> Next month i'll buy a bottle of Tropinol (on my own!!!) to see how it works for me. I'm very interested in Tropinols/Bulbine Natalensis test boosting potential.


that would be good to see, i ma prepping 2 naturals at the moment one is in the off season i may suggest he uses this as he has both his training and diet detailed so any results would be all down to tropinol if any at all.....


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## VaughnTrue

You're right. I have no idea how to be a rep.

LOL I've been a rep for 5 years now, and am widely known on every single US board as one of the more helpful/knowledgeable people on the board. You're just angry that you're bringing up strawman arguments that no matter how I answer them, I can't win.

Awww poor mod


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## 3752

VaughnTrue said:


> You're right. I have no idea how to be a rep.
> 
> LOL I've been a rep for 5 years now, and am widely known on every single US board as one of the more helpful/knowledgeable people on the board. You're just angry that you're bringing up strawman arguments that no matter how I answer them, I can't win.
> 
> Awww poor mod


dont see where your getting the angry bit  just for the record your not answering anything.......i suggest you go back to the US boards then as on here you have zero respect if the messages i am getting about this thread are anything to go by.......

Awwww poor rep man


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## VaughnTrue

Actually, I think I'll stay a while, thanks  . This board moves really slow, and most of the questions are extremely basic, but every board has to start somewhere, right?

The reason I am not bending over backwards to answer your questions, is because in EVERY single tropinol thread, you've asked the same questions over and over, and I've answered them over and over.

Yet then BAM! You ask them again.

Ginko Baloba. Check it out. May help this situation out for you...


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## JayJo

Pscarb said:


> that would be good to see, i ma prepping 2 naturals at the moment one is in the off season i may suggest he uses this as he has both his training and diet detailed so any results would be all down to tropinol if any at all.....


Sounds good. I will keep you posted and/or write a review.


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## 3752

VaughnTrue said:


> *Actually, I think I'll stay a while, thanks *  *. *This board moves really slow, and most of the questions are extremely basic, but every board has to start somewhere, right?
> 
> The reason I am not bending over backwards to answer your questions, is because in EVERY single tropinol thread, you've asked the same questions over and over, and I've answered them over and over.
> 
> Yet then BAM! You ask them again.
> 
> Ginko Baloba. Check it out. May help this situation out for you...


No you won't


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## 3752

JayJo i think you should do any promoting stuff for Tropinol from now on mate......the way you have replied and reacted to my posts has gained my respect mate....i constantly said to Vaughn i was not slating the product but on 4 occasions in this thread he felt the need to get personnel and insult me this is why he is banned.


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## hackskii

You know what is funny?

You post up numbers that are in rats that are not achieved by men and yet still insist on posting up number that are not achievable.

That by all standards is deception.

Then some dude has bumped testosterone or free test (not sure which one as that isnt measured in percent as it is only like 1 to 2% free test anyway so we wont go there.

Now here is the deal.

AI's bump testosterone levels equal to what you guys are posting.

Yep an AI will elivate free test as it will have less binding to SHBG.

Same numbers as yours.

Now, this is where the rubber hits the road, like a SERM or an AI you will get numbers like yours yet higher values in LH and FSH from up to double LH output and up to 50% FSH levels.

Yet, nobody thought to run these numbers why?

Million dollar answer here is, because nobody is going to pay that much money for a SERM or AI to do the job your product does and wont get but the smallest gains as estrogen is needed for gains.

I know guys on creatine that have more gains in strength and weight than this stuff.

Placebo alone will do what this product does.

Great marketing hype, yet its just hype, and just another herb marked to young men for steroid like gains.

Proprietary blend can be anything in there as it does not have to be disclosed, it could be a herbal AI.


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## JayJo

Pscarb said:


> JayJo i think you should do any promoting stuff for Tropinol from now on mate......*the way you have replied and reacted to my posts has gained my respect mate*....i constantly said to Vaughn i was not slating the product but on 4 occasions in this thread he felt the need to get personnel and insult me this is why he is banned.


Thank you Pscarb. This means a lot to me!


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## JayJo

hackskii said:


> Now here is the deal.
> 
> AI's bump testosterone levels equal to what you guys are posting.
> 
> I know guys on creatine that have more gains in strength and weight than this stuff.
> 
> Placebo alone will do what this product does.
> 
> Proprietary blend can be anything in there as it does not have to be disclosed, it could be a herbal AI.


I think you are talking about ATD, right?  (I don't know about other AI's with similar results)

The problem is that ATD cross-reacts with enzyme mediated test like EIA/ELISA and with radioimmunoassay (RIA) for testosterone. This means that the results on ATD, like the onces in the Novedex XT study by Gaspari, are wrong.

Like i said before results vary from person to person. Some get great results, other do not. I think you have to agree with me on this?!

A proprietary blend does only hide the amount of each ingredient. You still have to add every ingreadient that is on the label.


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## 3752

JayJo said:


> I think you are talking about ATD, right?  (I don't know about other AI's with similar results)
> 
> The problem is that ATD cross-reacts with enzyme mediated test like EIA/ELISA and with radioimmunoassay (RIA) for testosterone. This means that the results on ATD, like the onces in the Novedex XT study by Gaspari, are wrong.
> 
> Like i said before results vary from person to person. Some get great results, other do not. I think you have to agree with me on this?!
> 
> *A proprietary blend does only hide the amount of each ingredient. You still have to add every ingreadient that is on the label*.


exactly mate


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## hackskii

JayJo said:


> I think you are talking about ATD, right?  (I don't know about other AI's with similar results)
> 
> The problem is that ATD cross-reacts with enzyme mediated test like EIA/ELISA and with radioimmunoassay (RIA) for testosterone. This means that the results on ATD, like the onces in the Novedex XT study by Gaspari, are wrong.
> 
> Like i said before results vary from person to person. Some get great results, other do not. I think you have to agree with me on this?!
> 
> A proprietary blend does only hide the amount of each ingredient. You still have to add every ingreadient that is on the label.


ATD?

I dont know what that is.

I was making refrence to lets say clomid as it doubles LH output and can elivate FSH by up to 50%

So, for instance if I took clomid and did a serum testosterone test, then I would in fact be much higher than normal due from its direct responce to LH and FSH.

Now if that was some propritary blend and I only took the supplement with clomid in the mix, I would in fact have higher T levels.

But, would I see any gains in the gym?

No, of course not, yet I could make the claim of higher T levels.

Without knowing LH and FSH levels and only total test, it is like trying to read a two page article with one of the pages missing.


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## JayJo

hackskii said:


> ATD?
> 
> I dont know what that is.
> 
> I was making refrence to lets say clomid as it doubles LH output and can elivate FSH by up to 50%
> 
> So, for instance if I took clomid and did a serum testosterone test, then I would in fact be much higher than normal due from its direct responce to LH and FSH.
> 
> Now if that was some propritary blend and I only took the supplement with clomid in the mix, I would in fact have higher T levels.
> 
> But, would I see any gains in the gym?
> 
> No, of course not, yet I could make the claim of higher T levels.
> 
> Without knowing LH and FSH levels and only total test, it is like trying to read a two page article with one of the pages missing.


Ah, ok. But clomid is a SERM and not an AI.


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## hackskii

JayJo said:


> Ah, ok. But clomid is a SERM and not an AI.


Both bump testosterone levels via diffrent ways.


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