# Islam and sharia law



## Delhi (Dec 8, 2005)

I see lots of threads and discussions about Islam and sharia law and tbh some very strong view points from people who I SUSPECT have not looked into the subject but instead base their opinions on what I think is fear driven by media.

I am not interested in religion in any worshipful way but I do like to educate myself a little on the subject.

To me as a free man I dont see what the problem is with Islam? Infact compared to christianity the story is much more believable, the morals are more in line with my own and the religion seems more about peace than hate. I seldom drink, dont do drugs, dont like prostitution, party animals, hate to see young girls looking like slags wearing next to nothing, I dont gamble, hate thiefs with a vengance, despise violence, hate when people play loud music till 5am and I really dont think our justice system is strong enough on offenders of crime. All of which Sharia law would address.

As for Muslim people I have found them in the main to be far more friendly and family orientated than "Western" people. Hmmmm

So please from an educational perspective, what is SOOOOOO wrong with Islam (And Sharia law)?


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## lukeee (Aug 17, 2009)

Nothing, its just as any other religion, people twist it and confuse it and make it all fecked up and use it in a way it was never meant to be.. And if the people of mainly islamic countries want to use it then all the best, but we are not so we shant.


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## mikep81 (Oct 8, 2010)

I agree with a lot of your points. I work for an Arab family and spend a lot of time in and amongst their culture and am generally very impressed with the way they conduct themselves. There are a few parts of Sharia Law that I don't agree with which I'm not going to get into, but what I will say is that there are a lot of things that our culture and judicial system could learn from within Islam. And that is the way forward, not to have two laws. I think all nations should stick to their own laws and just have one, I'm not a fan of having one rule for one and another for others but see nothing wrong with learning and improvement.


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## Delhi (Dec 8, 2005)

mikep81 said:


> I agree with a lot of your points. I work for an Arab family and spend a lot of time in and amongst their culture and am generally very impressed with the way they conduct themselves. There are a few parts of Sharia Law that I don't agree with which I'm not going to get into, but what I will say is that there are a lot of things that our culture and judicial system could learn from within Islam. And that is the way forward, not to have two laws. I think all nations should stick to their own laws and just have one, I'm not a fan of having one rule for one and another for others but see nothing wrong with learning and improvement.


I think we may be thinking similar tbh. I dont agree with the extreme views of Sharia (ie no education for women) but there are some elements that I STRONGLY support.

I am not promoting Sharia (Or Islam) just as I said trying to educate and be educated. Just think there are lots of people out there who hate it because the media told them to. We have Catholic schools (Funded by tax payer) so why not muslim schools?

My personal opinion is NO religious school should be state funded as for me education and religion should not be in same building.


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## BenderRodriguez (Nov 29, 2010)

derp derp,true love and peace man


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## mikep81 (Oct 8, 2010)

Delhi said:


> I think we may be thinking similar tbh. I dont agree with the extreme views of Sharia (ie no education for women) but there are some elements that I STRONGLY support.
> 
> I am not promoting Sharia (Or Islam) just as I said trying to educate and be educated. Just think there are lots of people out there who hate it because the media told them to. We have Catholic schools (Funded by tax payer) so why not muslim schools?
> 
> My personal opinion is NO religious school should be state funded as for me education and religion should not be in same building.


Sounds like it. I also don't like the idea of religious schools at all. I think, especially at an early age as it can be confusing for kids.


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## Conscript (Sep 5, 2010)

People are just people, good and bad from all backgrounds. I do admire the Islamic devotion that even many younger and more liberal Muslims keep to, you can't fault honour and loyalty to one's culture. But I do believe that laws should have no religious influence whatsoever, it is discriminating and arbitrary to others who don't share the same belief and culture and morals. Saudi Arabia has Sharia Law and you bet your a$$ you wouldn't want to drop in the sh1t over there!!


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## Readyandwaiting (Mar 20, 2011)

yes I agree.

Religion in general is ridiculous IMO.

To me a good person is a good person no matter what religion.

More people have been killed in the name of God than anything else so religion is a bit fcuked up and people's interpretation on aspects surrounding religion is even worse.

There's so many stupid morons out there I cannot begin to imagine.


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## Milky (Nov 30, 2008)

I can't support anything that condones stoning people to death for any reason TBH.

I realise this is the extreme side of Sharia law but it is wrong on so many levels.


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## eezy1 (Dec 14, 2010)

i got nothin against islam or sharia law. this is england and we have our our system we gotta deal with


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## Milky (Nov 30, 2008)

For the record l agree with the op's first statement regarding his likes and dislikes how ever if were honest what he talks about is basic common decency which is seriously lacking in this country.


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## barsnack (Mar 12, 2011)

im just scared ofr the Sharia Law and their Ray guns


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## Conscript (Sep 5, 2010)

Milky said:


> For the record l agree with the op's first statement regarding his likes and dislikes how ever if were honest what he talks about is basic common decency which is seriously lacking in this country.


I agree there mate but I think this sort of problem is more evident in the larger cities, if you go out into rural England there is still a lovely warm and close community spirit still alive and kicking!


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## Readyandwaiting (Mar 20, 2011)

Milky said:


> For the record l agree with the op's first statement regarding his likes and dislikes how ever if were honest what he talks about is basic common decency which is seriously lacking in this country.


well ****ing said.

People seem to be getting worse, so much disrespectful, ignorant cnuts everywhere.

So many people have this herd like mentality and are too scared for change to say or do anything out of the 'norm' so to speak.

I am not tooting my own horn but I am so much more respectful than 99.9 percent of people out there within the UK that is.

Trouble is most never show the same back but I still do it without expectation.


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## johnny_lee (Jun 15, 2011)

Its a cult not a religion.


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## Milky (Nov 30, 2008)

Conscript said:


> I agree there mate but I think this sort of problem is more evident in the larger cities, if you go out into rural England there is still a lovely warm and close community spirit still alive and kicking!


Absolutely there is yes


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## Ironclad (Jun 23, 2009)

eezy1 said:


> i got nothin against islam or sharia law. this is england and we have our our system we gotta deal with


THIS.

I don't think there is a place for either Islam or Sharia Law in 'The West'.

Why? Because this is a secular part of the world, because we value *freedom of speech*, because we have *sexual equality*, because we *educate our children* fairly & because we trial our criminals within an *established legal system* headed by Judges - not 'wise men'.

Most, if not all of the above is not in keeping with less-moderate Islam and certainly not Sharia Law (which is practised here anyhow).

We do not want to be dragged back 1,500 years, we have done the Middle Ages and it is time for the Saudi exported Sharia (and Iran etc etc) to be put to bed.

Thanks but no thanks.


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## Matt 1 (May 8, 2010)

Delhi said:


> I see lots of threads and discussions about Islam and sharia law and tbh some very strong view points from people who I SUSPECT have not looked into the subject but instead *base their opinions on what I think is fear driven by media*.
> 
> I am not interested in religion in any worshipful way but I do like to educate myself a little on the subject.
> 
> ...


Those things you said in a list, surely some of that is what you've heard about from the news? Bit hypocritical, no?


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## Matt 1 (May 8, 2010)

I take back the hypocrite bit as long as you realize theres always a bad minority in every religion, pretty sure christianity doesn't say party till 5am with loud music or go gambling, just as real islam doesn't say blow people up and you'll go to paradise, its small sections of people who's primary religion is ultered and twisted into something knew, a lot of muslims I know are well manured very friendly people, like you said, for some people they look for any weakness/threat and label everyone under the same name


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## Zara-Leoni (Mar 12, 2007)

Religion has no place in modern law.


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## essexboy (Sep 7, 2008)

If you want your grandchildren to be brought up in a country, that is a total distortion of the country of your forefathers, then there is nothing wrong with Islam.However, if you study the basic tenants of Islam, it seeks to dominate the world.The demographics of population growth, clearly display this.Its simply a numbers game.The muslim population is growing throughout Europe at a pace that is supassing "europeans" When, (not if) when those demographics are significantly altered, an Islamic goverment, will be elected.Then you will have all the Shaira law you want.

The first to suffer will be Seihks & Hindis.Whether or not any supression will be then directed against "christians" is anyones guess.

The prime minister Of Germany stated."Germany will be a Muslim state in 50 years" They will be preying for the National Socialists to be reformed, and Hitler will be regarded as an Icon.Trust me.


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## kernowgee (Jan 30, 2011)

johnny_lee said:


> Its a cult not a religion.


No it is a religion and like all religions is used to control the masses with retarded rules which it is almost impossible to justify in the modern day, all religions are for the weak much the same as cults though cults tend to brainwash where as islam is imposed from birth. Making it very hard to counter but just as hard to embrace, creating the massive rip we have in English society today. It does not bother me pur se but I accept it will tear the UK apart until the liberals accept we can not please all of the world all of the time from our overcrowded island, outside of football England has almost been removed and along with it national pride and a sense of community, it all went wrong when integration failed.


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## slunkeh (Apr 21, 2011)

Islam is the biggest joke of a religion (apart from scientology) and has no place in britains law system. People who condone what islam stands for should really need their head seen to.


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## Ironclad (Jun 23, 2009)

I'm no fan of religion, but that 1st line's a touch harsh. You mean Sharia, not Islam.


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## cub (Jul 14, 2011)

Sharia is very unequal when it comes to to treating men and women. Plus as a gay man you won't get me saying anything in favour of Sharia, which says I should be dead. This is still practised in many Islamic countries.


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## essexboy (Sep 7, 2008)

cub said:


> Sharia is very unequal when it comes to to treating men and women. Plus as a gay man you won't get me saying anything in favour of Sharia, which says I should be dead. This is still practised in many Islamic countries.


Even though the Christian bible frowns on homosexuality,Its now generally accepted by the christian church.However, The quoran(?) is interpreted so literally, without compromise,you as a gay man will have less rights than you would had you lived in Victorian England.


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## bossdog (Aug 25, 2011)

essexboy said:


> If you want your grandchildren to be brought up in a country, that is a total distortion of the country of your forefathers, then there is nothing wrong with Islam.However, if you study the basic tenants of Islam, it seeks to dominate the world.The demographics of population growth, clearly display this.Its simply a numbers game.The muslim population is growing throughout Europe at a pace that is supassing "europeans" When, (not if) when those demographics are significantly altered, an Islamic goverment, will be elected.Then you will have all the Shaira law you want.
> 
> The first to suffer will be Seihks & Hindis.Whether or not any supression will be then directed against "christians" is anyones guess.
> 
> The prime minister Of Germany stated."Germany will be a Muslim state in 50 years" They will be preying for the National Socialists to be reformed, and Hitler will be regarded as an Icon.Trust me.


so we fcked it then


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## essexboy (Sep 7, 2008)

bossdog said:


> so we fcked it then


 Yup.


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## Delhi (Dec 8, 2005)

Matt 1 said:


> Those things you said in a list, surely some of that is what you've heard about from the news? Bit hypocritical, no?


Errmm NO.

I have junkies living next door, loud music below me EVERY weekend, I see gambling everyday destrying lives, on teh street at almost anytime of the day I see young girls dreesed like slags and anyone can clearly see alchohol and its greatness all around....so no, I dont think I am hypocritical mate.

I would like to know where you stay as it sounds like a really nice place, you are lucky and should protect it.

TBH it sounds to me like you are a hater that dont want to even DISCUSS the topic. Despite not contributing any evidence or input into the subject. I have read and agree with a few comments on here (Freedom, secular society etc) and all these are valid points and should IMO be protected. You are adding nothing mate.


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## Jack92 (Aug 23, 2010)

absolutely nothing wrong with it, unless people try and inforce it on others.


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## Delhi (Dec 8, 2005)

Matt 1 said:


> I take back the hypocrite bit as long as you realize theres always a bad minority in every religion, pretty sure christianity doesn't say party till 5am with loud music or go gambling, just as real islam doesn't say blow people up and you'll go to paradise, its small sections of people who's primary religion is ultered and twisted into something knew, a lot of muslims I know are well manured very friendly people, like you said, for some people they look for any weakness/threat and label everyone under the same name


Now taht makes more sence. Yes I believe there are idiots in EVERY walk of life and I know MANY christians who are simply wonderful peace loving people. I am not having a go at chritianity here all I am asking about is peoples OPINIONS on why Islam and Sharia law gets such a bad rep (ANd lets face it, it does get a bad rep).


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## Ironclad (Jun 23, 2009)

Well, I think you got your answer Delhi.


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## pieman (Jul 9, 2011)

Like was said earlier religion has no place in law . The only way it could is if we ALL believed in one god one religion and one set of hoops we have to jump through to get to heaven paradise whatever . That's not gonna happen any time soon !

Any religion that thinks you be " cured " from being gay is laughable in my opinion .I think that's most of them .

Nothing against Islam in particular but I don't want to be judged by any religion thanks .

When I do kick the bucket if I find myself standing before a god to be judged I hope it will be on how I have lived in general weather I treated others with respect etc , not weather I prayed at a certain time or went to a certain building on a certain day or didn't eat certain things .


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## cub (Jul 14, 2011)

essexboy said:


> Even though the Christian bible frowns on homosexuality,Its now generally accepted by the christian church.However, The quoran(?) is interpreted so literally, without compromise,you as a gay man will have less rights than you would had you lived in Victorian England.


I agree. Christian countries as a whole have moved away from capital punishment for gay people. A lot of Muslim countries have not. I don't think it's a coincidence that the country in the Middle East with the most progressive laws on homosexuality is the only non-Muslim country (Israel).


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## bossdog (Aug 25, 2011)

not religious but fack shaira law {stoneing women suppressors etc} as been said good and bad in all


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## hans87 (Sep 4, 2011)

I am a Muslim and I lived all my life in Islamic country and Sharia law is based on eye on eye justice system. If you get caught stealing with your right hand your right hand will be cut off.


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## cas (Jan 9, 2011)

Delhi said:


> I think we may be thinking similar tbh. I dont agree with the extreme views of Sharia (ie no education for women) but there are some elements that I STRONGLY support.
> 
> I am not promoting Sharia (Or Islam) just as I said trying to educate and be educated. Just think there are lots of people out there who hate it because the media told them to. We have Catholic schools (Funded by tax payer) so why not muslim schools?
> 
> My personal opinion is NO religious school should be state funded as for me education and religion should not be in same building.


i am game for that, although mixing different religions is a better idea, you want people to be intergrated into society not feel pushed out.

i wonder how other countries would feel about having a catholic school placed in their towns, hmmm...something to think about?


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## cas (Jan 9, 2011)

hans87 said:


> I am a Muslim and I lived all my life in Islamic country and Sharia law is based on eye on eye justice system. If you get caught stealing with your right hand your right hand will be cut off.


doesnt stop people from stealing though does it?


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## Conscript (Sep 5, 2010)

hans87 said:


> I am a Muslim and I lived all my life in Islamic country and Sharia law is based on eye on eye justice system. If you get caught stealing with your right hand your right hand will be cut off.


So if a boy who parents have been killed in a bomb blast can't fend for himself and resorts to stealing a meal he should lose his hand?


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## cas (Jan 9, 2011)

Conscript said:


> So if a boy who parents have been killed in a bomb blast can't fend for himself and resorts to stealing a meal he should lose his hand?


they could be stoned, if you prefer?

lol, i have no insight on this topic what so ever, ignore me lol


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## manaja (Feb 10, 2008)

I live round a load of Muslims, a lot smoke weed, take steds (at my gym ), go with English white tramps(slags), get pssied at a weekend, yet want Sharia law !!? Like most religions Islam followers are hypocritical,religion is very misplaced in todays society , its nothing more than an inert nostrum , be it Islam , Christianity, Sikh etc.

Instead of Sharia law(which has no place in this country or any ) why not bring back National service, after all the subject post is about discipline ?


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## barsnack (Mar 12, 2011)

cas said:


> they could be stoned, if you prefer?
> 
> lol, i have no insight on this topic what so ever, ignore me lol


how could they afford marjuana


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## bossdog (Aug 25, 2011)

they mentality is stone age,pity our once great country who our granparents fought and give they lives for has come to where we are today,**** reading that back makes me sound extreme which i am not but there is only so much room in this small country for so much and obviously over the last few years we have seen there isnt room for everyone and they views


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## Ironclad (Jun 23, 2009)

*Secular* post-christian countries have moved on in the world. The priests do not rule the people by their laws anymore, and i'll be damned if anyone is going to make us go backwards in time by demanding Sharia law ffs.

I'll tell you what Delhi, I bet most Muslims in the UK (especially if asked privately) would not wish to see Sharia either. Why would they?

What we seem to have here these days is a bunch of slightly nervous Muslims (because of 9/11, London bombings, generally being in the news unfairly) who moved here to find a new life; to escape Sharia; to escape persecution.. etc - now add into this non-moderate clerics and other firebrand Muslims picking up on topics like Sharia. They tell the 'moderate' Muslims they will never be accepted, they tell the normal Muslims they are being denied their culture (Sharia law).. they are trying very hard to change the minds of the typical Muslim on the street by peddling BS & poison.

We Brits may tell them, "if you don't like it go home, go where this Law is practised", but they don't want to go. They want trouble, they want to divide.

You see; we don't care about your noisy neighbours, the rock music, the mini-skirts, the horse racing and many of the other things you mention. Some of this is a bit much, granted, but much of it is OUR culture. We do big concerts, the gee-gees is 100s of years old, girls are not ashamed of themselves and they are allowed to work and date and find their own life or husband.

We don't think too highly on the new brand of Saudi culture 'invading' Muslim life: the less than human female, the blanket ban on music, the illegality of public affection between lovers (husband&wife), no dancing, no beer. NO BEER!?

We don't like it & it'll never happen. Those pedallers of Sharia can fvck right off.


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## AK-26 (May 29, 2011)

Delhi said:


> I see lots of threads and discussions about Islam and sharia law and tbh some very strong view points from people who I SUSPECT have not looked into the subject but instead base their opinions on what I think is fear driven by media.
> 
> I am not interested in religion in any worshipful way but I do like to educate myself a little on the subject.
> 
> ...


Well said mate and i agree a hundred percent, i was born into a Muslim family, i am not practicing....if anything i am an agnostic but i agree there are many things we could learn from Islam. but in my own opinion we all worship the same god, we just have different names/ways to worship and the story gets changed from religion to religion. shariah law has its positive and negatives, the good i agree with negatives i think may be a little too harsh or extreme, but all in all like another member said, what we are lacking in the UK is common decency. :thumb:


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## Ironclad (Jun 23, 2009)

What common decency is the UK lacking?


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## AK-26 (May 29, 2011)

hans87 said:


> I am a Muslim and I lived all my life in Islamic country and Sharia law is based on eye on eye justice system. If you get caught stealing with your right hand your right hand will be cut off.


This is a perfect example of one of the shariah laws that in my opinion is too harsh/extreme/barbaric. i mean seriously, if a man had to steal to feed his child as he has no job for whatever reason, and you cut his hand off......surely you have just f**ked him over for life as it will be harder for him to find work to stop stealing as he is now not only without an income to feed his child but he is also now disabled........ :thumbdown:


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## Sub-Zero (May 2, 2011)

There's lots of things i agree with regarding sharia law, but some aspects I don't. People have said that UK has a good legal system in place already, yet there's many threads always popping up in the General section on "The law is a joke". I mean we've all seen the news how paedos, killers and rapists are out of prison after a few pathetic years....

And then when there's some story in the news of some horrendous crime commited by an individual, you aways find the majority if not all people shouting how they would like to "kill him" or "the ba5stard should be hung" etc, but isn't that exactly what sharia law is..? An eye for an eye.......

Most of the laws are a deterrent, would a thief not think twice if he knew the punishment for stealing would have his left hand cut off..?

People always think of sharia law as a bad thing, due to the media potraying Islam as a "terrorist" religion as delhi said earlier.

But the next time anyones family member gets murdered, I'm pretty sure they would happily have the perpetrator executed for his crime, i know i would.

Didn't the mother of the girl who was murdered by her ex recnetly in the news , say bring back capital punishment.

This is just the criminal aspect of Sharia law, but in Islamic tradtions Sharia laws is seen as something that nurtures humanity. And not the barbaric and primitive rule that the media portrays it as.


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## essexboy (Sep 7, 2008)

The really frightening thing is that a barbaric system is even being discussed as a possible law in THIS country.


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## Conscript (Sep 5, 2010)

Sub-Zero said:


> Most of the laws are a deterrent, would a thief not think twice if he knew the punishment for stealing would have his left hand cut off..?


People who are desperate and in the depth of despair obviously don't or it wouldn't still happen in said countries...


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## cub (Jul 14, 2011)

Sub-Zero said:


> There's lots of things i agree with regarding sharia law, but some aspects I don't. People have said that UK has a good legal system in place already, yet there's many threads always popping up in the General section on "The law is a joke". I mean we've all seen the news how paedos, killers and rapists are out of prison after a few pathetic years....
> 
> And then when there's some story in the news of some horrendous crime commited by an individual, you aways find the majority if not all people shouting how they would like to "kill him" or "the ba5stard should be hung" etc, but isn't that exactly what sharia law is..? An eye for an eye.......
> 
> ...


I guess when people "the law is a joke" they believe the law has become a joke because it has been weakened over the last fifty years, not that they want to get rid of our centuries-old legal system for a foreign system of laws instead. Sharia nurtures humanity? Are you having a laugh?


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## Malibu (May 13, 2010)

It (Sharia Law) has it good points and its bad points, as does everything. But Sharia law is an extreme law, where freedoms taken away. This coming from a Muslim myself.


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## Ironclad (Jun 23, 2009)

Sharia Law is being touted, knowing it'll be rejected, as another example of how Muslims are persecuted by The West. The cocks promoting it are simply troublemakers.

Sharia Law erodes life.


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## Conscript (Sep 5, 2010)

I don't know much about Sharia Law but any law that is centred around any religion - surely is non-progressive? Set in stone so to speak.


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## Slight of hand (Sep 30, 2008)

Op - you positioned Sharia Law as lever to rid you of the examples that **** you off, the junkies, anti socials and your perception of Uk women as prostitues (oh and btw the biggest clients of London Street Saunas in Edinburgh are all Asians) sharia is not even a remote possibility or remotely credible alternative to our law. Our current secular system needs to amend certain areas of our law - not changed with religious doctrine. Fuking dangerous place to be.

We have got social issues in the UK like never before and yes we need some fundamental changes and respect but the perpetual and insidous attempts the sneak this carcinogenic poison into our society will be met head on.

I would fuking die fighting for our constitution to remain the status quo and happily kill anyone who tries to change it, especially with that pish you are trying to promote.

IN fact this thread is pish - shouldnt even be entertaining this at all...


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## Sub-Zero (May 2, 2011)

Conscript said:


> People who are desperate and in the depth of despair obviously don't or it wouldn't still happen in said countries...


I know what you mean and yes of course it still happens, but my point was it would happen much more. This is an exterme limit of the punishment, or you would see loads of people in the middle east with one handmg:



cub said:


> I guess when people "the law is a joke" they believe the law has become a joke because it has been weakened over the last fifty years, not that they want to get rid of our centuries-old legal system for a foreign system of laws instead. *Sharia nurtures humanity? Are you having a laugh*?


That was from an Islamic viewpoint, not mine mate.


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## AK-26 (May 29, 2011)

slunkeh said:


> Islam is the biggest joke of a religion (apart from scientology) and has no place in britains law system. People who condone what islam stands for should really need their head seen to.


Everyone on this forum is entitled to a opinion, But come on!!! If you disagree there are better ways to word that opinion, Not by branding the whole religion a big joke......sort it out!!! :nono:


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## PHHead (Aug 20, 2008)

The problem with religion is the fact that people pick and choose the parts that suit their individual needs........it can be twisted and used to brain wash people and control people, its is also now responsible for countless acts of terrorism and has started many a War over the centuries........IMO religion is a bad thing and in the long run no good can come from it and I really find it bazaar in this day an age with all the advancements in science and technology that people still cling to these outdated beliefs!


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## essexboy (Sep 7, 2008)

AK-26 said:


> Everyone on this forum is entitled to a opinion, But come on!!! If you disagree there are better ways to word that opinion, Not by branding the whole religion a big joke......sort it out!!! :nono:


All religion, and those that believe, are a joke, not just Islam.Thats my opinion,and im entitled to voice it.How would you like it worded?


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## Ironclad (Jun 23, 2009)

Nah, he's right Essex. The poster he quoted was just trying to aggravate by baiting our Muslim members.

I think the ideas of all religions are daft, but it's a bit unfair to blanket everything about one religion without stating why. AK 26 is right to be p!ssed, he can't defend anything.


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## Must_Be_HBFS (Jun 21, 2011)

OP you're talking alot of nonsense tbh

you've cherry picked the nice things and decided that it's the way forward.

you've just suggested you'd rather live in a world where woman are treated like sub-humans

sex before being married? 100 lashes... cheating on your husband? death.

where stealing ANYTHING(downloading music?) would see you minus a few fingers.

you've a screw loose if you think that's a better alternative to what we have here.

that's my opinion.


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## Must_Be_HBFS (Jun 21, 2011)

> I see lots of threads and discussions about Islam and sharia law and tbh some very strong view points from people who I SUSPECT have not looked into the subject but instead base their opinions on what I think is fear driven by media.
> 
> I am not interested in religion in any worshipful way but I do like to educate myself a little on the subject.
> 
> ...


 don't take drugs? looking good for a natural bodybuilder, keep up the good work

lol...

having a drink - you think that deserves 80 lashes?

sticking 20quid on a sporting event - you think that deserves 80 lashes?

being allowed to hit your wife - yeah that's a good 'un.

stealing ANYTHING. cut off a hand or fingers - you think that's a good idea? downloading a song.. BANG there goes yer right hand

gay? no luck pal, you're going to be killed.

female has sex without being married? whip her. 80 times.

female cheats on her husband? kill her

be critical of the law or muhamad? your fault for having an opinion. death.

behave.


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## Delhi (Dec 8, 2005)

Slight of hand said:


> Op - *you positioned Sharia Law as lever *to rid you of the examples that **** you off, the junkies, anti socials and your perception of Uk women as prostitues (oh and btw the biggest clients of London Street Saunas in Edinburgh are all Asians) sharia is not even a remote possibility or remotely credible alternative to our law. Our current secular system needs to amend certain areas of our law - not changed with religious doctrine. Fuking dangerous place to be.
> 
> We have got social issues in the UK like never before and yes we need some fundamental changes and respect but the perpetual and insidous attempts the sneak this carcinogenic poison into our society will be met head on.
> 
> ...


Oh dear.....GO BACK RE-READ THE POST. Where did I EVER promote Sharia? Get a fecking grip of yersel. People like you talk about not wanting Sharia cause its "carcinogenic poison" then post abuse like you would "happily kill anyone who tried to change the status quo"....LOL

Can you see the irony in your post?

Now AGAIN for the hard of hearing, those at the back of the room and anyone else who wants to know. I AM TRYING TO EDUCATE AND BE EDUCATED. Or is that not allowed in your world LOL? How funny is that, you hate Sharia cause of its draconian, suppresive nature but you all REFUSE to even discuss the topic for educational purposes...


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## Delhi (Dec 8, 2005)

Must_Be_HBFS said:


> OP you're talking alot of nonsense tbh *( I usually do, but often find others do also*)you've cherry picked the nice things and decided that it's the way forward. *(Have I ? where did I cherry pick anything, re-read my post)*you've just suggested you'd rather live in a world where woman are treated like sub-humans *(I think if you re-read you will see I said I did NOT like the treatment of females)*sex before being married? 100 lashes... cheating on your husband? death.
> 
> where stealing ANYTHING(downloading music?) would see you minus a few fingers.
> 
> ...


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## Delhi (Dec 8, 2005)

Must_Be_HBFS said:


> don't take drugs? looking good for a natural bodybuilder, keep up the good work
> 
> lol...*Cheers mate, 100% natural is the way forward  *
> 
> ...


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## saj1985 (Aug 20, 2011)

hans87 said:


> I am a Muslim and I lived all my life in Islamic country and Sharia law is based on eye on eye justice system. If you get caught stealing with your right hand your right hand will be cut off.


hans forgot to mention theres rules and regulations like if you steal food, punishment can not be applied.

its funny cause i swear about a month ago when the riots were kickin off,

everyone was banging on about more severe punishments!

jus my 2pence worth!


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## Delhi (Dec 8, 2005)

LOL not being funny here guys but this post has confirmed my belief that most people preach about how bad Islam / Sharia is.

But looking through the posts I can see that the so called western "Freedoms and liberty" some preach and would defend till death are actually just as oppressive as ANYTHING Islam has.

I feel sorry for any Muslim having to be in a position to listen to the complete hypocrisy that some people spout out.

The real question that needs adressed is probably "Does freedom of speech exist in the UK?" or "Is education and freethinking in the UK without boundaries"


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## mal (Dec 31, 2009)

This threads grinding my gears tbh.


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## saj1985 (Aug 20, 2011)

slunkeh said:


> Islam is the biggest joke of a religion (apart from scientology) and has no place in britains law system. People who condone what islam stands for should really need their head seen to.


so approximately 1.6 billion peeps need their heads seen to?

so thats like roughly one-fifth of mankind! good luck mate  lol


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## Ironclad (Jun 23, 2009)

Delhi said:


> The real question that needs adressed is probably "Does freedom of speech exist in the UK?" or "Is education and freethinking in the UK without boundaries"


What do you mean, Delhi? What are you saying mate?


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## Delhi (Dec 8, 2005)

mal said:


> This threads grinding my gears tbh.


Why? post your thoughts.

It is educational, I am keen to get to the core of peoples emotions surrounding the subject?

If you have nothing to add, dont. If you dont like it dont read it. No one is forcing you to read it ... YET.


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## Delhi (Dec 8, 2005)

Ironclad said:


> What do you mean, Delhi? What are you saying mate?


Look at SOME of the posts I have recieved...they are explanation enough. This is a topic for discussion nothing more, some people would have me killed for even talking about it. LOL


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## Ironclad (Jun 23, 2009)

saj1985 said:


> so approximately 1.6 billion peeps need their heads seen to?
> 
> so thats like roughly one-fifth of mankind! good luck mate  lol


Read this link with an open mind.

ps i'm not condoning the post you quoted btw.


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## Delhi (Dec 8, 2005)

Ironclad said:


> Read this link with an open mind.
> 
> ps i'm not condoning the post you quoted btw.


Interesting and I support that thinking. But surley the meme gene is more to do with behaviour then genetic (Ie culture is based on previous behaviours)


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## essexboy (Sep 7, 2008)

saj1985 said:


> so approximately 1.6 billion peeps need their heads seen to?
> 
> so thats like roughly one-fifth of mankind! good luck mate  lol


Who said that stupidity was rare?


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## Ironclad (Jun 23, 2009)

Delhi said:


> Look at SOME of the posts I have recieved...they are explanation enough. This is a topic for discussion nothing more, some people would have me killed for even talking about it. LOL


Fair enuff. But you are getting what you asked for, mostly maybe haha. I mean, Sharia Law in the UK... it's like, "some of us demand you accept and adopt foreign laws".

Well, we don't need to have these laws. Our system works, on the whole.

The *real* question is; why do a few want these laws transposed onto a host country? Do Muslims find it hard to stay good citizens without a scimitar raised above them? Really?!


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## Delhi (Dec 8, 2005)

essexboy said:


> Who said that stupidity was rare?


lol I think thats funny. So are you saying ANYONE who is religious is stupid?

Serious question.

If you answer yes, can you tell me who the "Intelligent" people are (Individuals). The way I see it most of our greatest minds had a religious background of some sort.


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## Delhi (Dec 8, 2005)

Ironclad said:


> Fair enuff. But you are getting what you asked for, mostly maybe haha. I mean, Sharia Law in the UK... it's like, "some of us demand you accept and adopt foreign laws".
> 
> Well, we don't need to have these laws. Our system works, on the whole.
> 
> The *real* *question is; why do a few want these laws transposed onto a host country? Do Muslims find it hard to stay good citizens without a scimitar raised above them? Really?*!


Also a good question, and a fair question tbh.


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## Sub-Zero (May 2, 2011)

johnny_lee said:


> Its a cult not a religion.


What makes you think it's a cult and not a religon?


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## Sub-Zero (May 2, 2011)

Delhi said:


> lol I think thats funny.* So are you saying ANYONE who is religious is stupid?*Serious question.
> 
> If you answer yes, can you tell me who the "Intelligent" people are (Individuals). The way I see it most of our greatest minds had a religious background of some sort.


I was thinking the same, considering most of the world follow some sort of religion, but according to essexboy most of the world must be stupid then........


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## Conscript (Sep 5, 2010)

Well tbf if I look at mankind from an outsiders perspective then yeah I think we're stupid, crazy, cruel and greedy mofos lol


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## essexboy (Sep 7, 2008)

Delhi said:


> lol I think thats funny. So are you saying ANYONE who is religious is stupid?
> 
> Serious question.
> 
> If you answer yes, can you tell me who the "Intelligent" people are (Individuals). The way I see it most of our greatest minds had a religious background of some sort.


my opnion is that if you believe in a "superior" being that exists, in some undiscovered etha,then you are not capable of rational thought.In my mind that means you are stupid.If I was to reveal to the world, that I talk to the fairies at the bottom of my garden, you would view me with distain and perhaps fear for my state of mind.There is no difference.Yet im expected to accept preposterous notions, simply because many people choose to do so.


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## essexboy (Sep 7, 2008)

Sub-Zero said:


> I was thinking the same, considering most of the world follow some sort of religion, but according to essexboy most of the world must be stupid then........


You post what you believe.Then we can examine it from a rational logical perspective.Ive no idea of your beliefs, or if you have any.


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## Conscript (Sep 5, 2010)

essexboy said:


> my opnion is that if you believe in a "superior" being that exists, in some undiscovered etha,then you are not capable of rational thought.In my mind that means you are stupid.If I was to reveal to the world, that I talk to the fairies at the bottom of my garden, you would view me with distain and perhaps fear for my state of mind.There is no difference.Yet im expected to accept preposterous notions, simply because many people choose to do so.


I agree that religion is as arbitrary as believing in Scientology and fairytales, fundamentally....from an agnostic point of view.


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## Glassback (Jun 18, 2010)

I think your outlook is nieve OP. You have picked out the rose tinted aspects of Sharia Law or 'values' in your opening post.

I have no problem with Sharia law in Islamic countries, but at the same time I wouldn not choose to live in an Islamic country. Sharia Law certainly has no place in the UK or even Europe. I personally would have it outlawed here - which having to do legally is a joke in its self. How can one set of people request to use a set of laws in a land not their own?

I appreciate the points you pick out about respect etc.... nice and something we are lacking here in the UK.


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## Sub-Zero (May 2, 2011)

essexboy said:


> You post what you believe.Then we can examine it from a rational logical perspective.Ive no idea of your beliefs, or if you have any.


You have the right to not to beleive in religon or "superior" being, and there's nothing wrong with that. But I wouldn't label a few billion people "stupid" and unable to to have rational thought because they follow a religion.

I works both ways people who follow a religion may think of atheist as "stupid"

each to their own, i guess


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## Ironclad (Jun 23, 2009)

When you start to look at the world around you it seems damn daft to think that magic did it all. We got better lives these days, and much of it is down to science. Give us Sharia Law and doom us all.

Sharia is brutal, the Arabs are finally rising up against those who use it to control their lives. Democracy, not Theocracy wins hearts but the path is bloody and sad.

I think religion is quaint. Keep your holy books if you like, if it makes you happy, but please.. keep them private. Accept the wider world for what it is, often different to yours. If you don't like it the way it is then that is unfortunate, but it isn't the strangers problem. If we want to change, if the world will one day be Islamic (so we often hear), then it will happen slowly.. little steps or nothing. Remember Aesop's Fable of the sun & wind: persuasion thru kindness not brute force wins the day.

How philosophical! Can we talk about booze now?


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## Glassback (Jun 18, 2010)

Sorry Sub-Zero - but I find it amazing and it leaves me astonished and questioning humans when so many people follow a religion or belief system and yes when I meet someone who is massively religious I always treat is as strange.

Like you say each to their own.


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## essexboy (Sep 7, 2008)

Sub-Zero said:


> You have the right to not to beleive in religon or "superior" being, and there's nothing wrong with that. But I wouldn't label a few billion people "stupid" and unable to to have rational thought because they follow a religion.
> 
> I works both ways people who follow a religion may think of atheist as "stupid"
> 
> each to their own, i guess


You have free choice to believe as you wish.In the same way I do.However, I dont adhere to a system of unproven preposterous beliefs.Yes , I can label a few billion people, any way I choose.Without some evidence, how can you accept anything.You may call athesists anything you want, its your opinion.Merely "attacking" those who refuse to accept what you believe has been the cause of millions of deaths over the centuries as well.


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## Matt 1 (May 8, 2010)

hans87 said:


> I am a Muslim and I lived all my life in Islamic country and Sharia law is based on eye on eye justice system. If you get caught stealing with your right hand your right hand will be cut off.


What about the person who cuts of the theif's hand, they have taken someone's hand, does that then mean their hand is taken off, where would it end, its a flawed system

What about if someone crashed their car and killed someone, but it was an accident, does that person therefore deserve their life to be taken?


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## Glassback (Jun 18, 2010)

What I find interesting is when you talk religion with a scientist - you just cant believe in a God after speaking to a scientist and science is disproving these strange beliefs all the time.

I dont want this subject to fall in to arguing but I have been in some sh!tty situations in my life, one of them war and I served with some very religious people, people I admire and everyone came back non religious. I dont think you can use this as a statistic but there are some things you see in life and you say "There just can NOT be a God" and for me that is enough yet I still read about religion and science to widen my views.


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## essexboy (Sep 7, 2008)

rjohal said:


> Agreed, if it was all so convincing and believable then it wouldn't be classed as religion but common sense.
> 
> It would be unfair to label anyone who follows any religion as stupid as it is a personal choice.


Yes it is personal choice.However, it demonstrates an inabilty for rational thought, and an abilty to accept what is proven.Religion is the choice, of those with the inabilty to accept or understand, and believe in the preposterous.Stupid.


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## Matt 1 (May 8, 2010)

I personally think if you come to a country, you respect the original rules and religions and beliefs, or you leave.

If a women goes to a country where you must wear a vale, then do it, purely out of respect.

Vice-versa, if a women comes into say a christian country, and you get told to remove your vale, you do it, its not racist, its called respect.

However the UK is too soft on this sort of thing for fear of being deemed racist, shame really

End/Rant.


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## Glassback (Jun 18, 2010)

When you explore this deeper it kind of answers itself. Why would one type want a law in lands not theirs?

If I want to be in a room with smokers.... I go to the smoking room. I dont go to the non smoking area and say "Hey how about I smoke here?"

A numptey way of approaching this but bear with me. I personally think differences in people will never be resolved and fighting amongst types goes deeper than any law. Naturally groups, species fight and differ.

It will come down to one type obliterating the other and even then we will be so stupid as humans there still wont be peace. I have deviated here slightly to widen the thought pool.

Back to topic!


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## Ironclad (Jun 23, 2009)

essexboy said:


> Yes it is personal choice.However, it demonstrates an inabilty for rational thought, and an abilty to accept what is proven.Religion is the choice, of those with the inabilty to accept or understand, and believe in the preposterous.Stupid.


You could go even further. Religion is a self-sustaining virus of the mind; lots of people need 'something' to cling on to and with religion you get friends. The trouble is, most of the religious have absolutely NO choice whatsoever because they are born in a particular part of the world. They are only Muslim because they are born in Pakistan, they are only Evangelical Xtain because they are USA born etc etc

In Islam is it said that all men are born Muslim, to reject the faith is the ultimate insult and is greeted by the ultimate punishment. This too is Sharia. Once you join the club you stay or you die.

In other faiths you are ostracised from friends and family until 'you see the light', not as deadly but full of anguish for the person.

As a virus it is powerful. It demands obedience and kills you if you attempt to treat it. Once you start to analyse the virus it is plain to see the lies; the plagiarised holy book tales and the conveniently private divine-revelations (how very convenient!).

What we need in The West is to ignore all demands for Sharia, this cannot come in for all our sakes, us & the home-grown Muslims.


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## flapjack (Mar 1, 2008)

If you want to live by specific laws then why leave that country for a country that doesn't practice those laws.


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## Ironclad (Jun 23, 2009)

flapjack said:


> If you want to live by specific laws then why leave that country for a country that doesn't practice those laws.


Money. Despite labelling us 'decadent' they want what we have. Homes, food, chokky, ipods, porn.. and lots of money.

I laugh, the afterlife is meant to be the most amazing gift, not this life, yet at the end of the day none of the devout really, I mean really really, believe in it. *They, like us, want it all now*.

(deep down everybody knows there ain't likely a heaven, nobody really wants to meet their maker, and everyone wants 'stuff')


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## Sub-Zero (May 2, 2011)

Glassback said:


> Sorry Sub-Zero - but I find it amazing and it leaves me astonished and questioning humans when so many people follow a religion or belief system and yes when I meet someone who is massively religious I always treat is as strange.
> 
> Like you say each to their own.


But thats what makes the world such an interesting place, some people follow religion some don't. If everyone was the same, the world would be pretty boring, dont you think..



essexboy said:


> You have free choice to believe as you wish.In the same way I do.However, I dont adhere to a system of unproven preposterous beliefs.Yes , I can label a few billion people, any way I choose.Without some evidence, how can you accept anything.You may call athesists anything you want, its your opinion.*Merely "attacking" those who refuse to accept what you believe has been the cause of millions of deaths over the centuries as well*.


Fully agree with you there essexboy, no religion should be forced onto someone. It should always remain a personal choice.


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## Bert Stare (Aug 5, 2011)

brb arm chopped off for stealing

brb woman needs 4 male witnesses to prove she was raped

brb 100 lashes for pre marital sex

brb stoning to death for homosexuals and adulterers

brb non-muslims must pay Jizya tax to show their subordinance

sharia law can **** off


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## Britbb (Sep 7, 2007)

Delhi said:


> I see lots of threads and discussions about Islam and sharia law and tbh some very strong view points from people who I SUSPECT have not looked into the subject but instead base their opinions on what I think is fear driven by media.
> 
> I am not interested in religion in any worshipful way but I do like to educate myself a little on the subject.
> 
> ...


Interesting that you decide to 'compare' to christianity, then you mention young girls acting like sl4gs, drinking, violence, drugs, prostitution, party animals etc etc...

I was unaware that christians did these things?

I was unaware that the people in 'western society' who get a mention in the above actions are 'christians' that follow the bible and go to church?? I think what you will find is that these people are most definately not christian, probably atheist, or if they claim to be christian, they certainly are not following the religion properly!

I think also if you went to the deep south of usa and spent time with some of the very religious right christians, that you would also have simmilar thoughts of them as you do with islam and sharia law. Afterall, the religious right in the bible belt also dont do drugs, dont party, dont act like sl4gs etc.

The 'cultural' degeneration of the western society isnt down to 'christianity', infact it has started occuring in the absence of christianity (an organised religion), because the organised religion at least had a set of codes and conducts (morals) to abide by. The west is basically devoid in it's faith in any major religion, hence the worship of materialism, celebrity's etc and of course the behaviour of people who dont need to abide by a strict moral code.

However, one would be a fool (very naive) to think that this type of behaviour does not occur in arab/sharia law countries as well lol.

The general public in sharia law countries (ussually repressed) should abide by all religious aspects, then the ruling elite (the ones with the money) ie the oil sheik's etc are free to spend THE DOLLAR on whatever they like and ignore their 'own' set of morals and adopt the western ones.

Meanwhile, we are forgetting the stoning to death of gay men and women, totaly INEQUALITY of sexes male and female and heavily prejudice society.

How many churches are there in iran? How many mosques are there in the uk? Lol kind of speaks for itself.

Such great cultures, such great countries... yet there is civil war in almost every one of them. The governments (ussually dictators) seem to have no problem in sending their army's in to kill civilians that rise up against their regimes.

If these are such wonderful places, why the hell is there mass trouble in the middle east, mass civil war against themselves and so much hatred and anger? No where else in the world do we see such anger and civil war going on.

Just look at libya, syria, egypt, iran as examples lol. 'TOLERANT', 'PEACEFUL'. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA


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## achilles88 (Aug 27, 2010)

it amazes me how many people choose to comment on a subject they know really very little about, how many of u here on this forum who have commented on this thread have actually read the quran cover to cover and actually understood everything for ur self?

in islam the quran it clearly states that "you abide by the law of any land you decide to live in & If you think you cannot abide by the law of the land, then leave"

there's alot of uneducated people out there muslims and non muslims that really don't know what the fcuk their on about, and to be honest every fcukin place u look, read or hear something thts all its about, the middle east, islam, war on terror frankly im sik to death of it, people should find a new hobby, the last thing i was expectin is for a b*llsiht topic like this to be on a bodybuilding forum wtf!!!


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## Mr_Morocco (May 28, 2011)

essexboy said:


> The really frightening thing is that a barbaric system is even being discussed as a possible law in THIS country.


Hold on a minute people. Can someone provide a link or information where the Muslim Community in the UK want to inforce Sharia Law onto the whole of the UK? I was under the impression that they wanted to take certain laws like marriage and use Sharia Law. I see no problem with that, they can use whatever law they want.

It's people like essexboy and the media who have seriously hyped Islam so far that terms such as "the muslims are going to outnumber europeans" or "germany will be the first muslim state" i was born in England into a Muslim family, although i dont practice it at all i consider myself British. In people like essexboys eyes and the media im not British im Muslim, religion and your nationality are two different things so please dont make silly statements.


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## Mr_Morocco (May 28, 2011)

achilles88 said:


> it amazes me how many people choose to comment on a subject they know really very little about, how many of u here on this forum who have commented on this thread have actually read the quran cover to cover and actually understood everything for ur self?
> 
> in islam the quran it clearly states that "you abide by the law of any land you decide to live in & If you think you cannot abide by the law of the land, then leave"
> 
> there's alot of uneducated people out there muslims and non muslims that really don't know what the fcuk their on about, and to be honest every fcukin place u look, read or hear something thts all its about, the middle east, islam, war on terror frankly im sik to death of it, people should find a new hobby, the last thing i was expectin is for a b*llsiht topic like this to be on a bodybuilding forum wtf!!!


This. So many delusional people here who just believe what they read in the newspaper. If you actually did your re-search and educated yourself you'd realise Islam teaches peace and the sense of community no matter what religion you are. Go and listen to the father of the 2 boys that were run over in Birmingham and you'll see a real muslim view on life. All this nonsense about we dont want sharia law etc, show me some evidence of the whole muslim community in this country wanting sharia law..you can't because most likely 1 idiot fanatic said something and the media have spun it to get reactions like this and the ****e the EDL come out with.


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## Milky (Nov 30, 2008)

Ironclad:2468980 said:


> What common decency is the UK lacking?


The basics of politeness for a start, followed by a gang culture that is creeping in when these kids should be being looked after by there parents. Decency that stops gangs of kids beating a man to death or a girl for being a goth.

Do you honestly believe we are still following a good moral code in this country because l can assure you we are not.


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## Beans (Sep 1, 2008)

I see it a very oppressive religion. It relies on blind faith and obedience. Any religion Which purposefully picks on the vulnerable and young to preach to and attempt to convert, is not one I wan't any thing to do with. I'll die before I see it introduced in this country, and I'm glad to see I'm not on my own!


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## Slight of hand (Sep 30, 2008)

AK-26 said:


> Everyone on this forum is entitled to a opinion, But come on!!! If you disagree there are better ways to word that opinion, Not by branding the whole religion a big joke......sort it out!!! :nono:


OK i'll start to take everyone i meet who has an imaginary friend seriously then.

Good poin this.....George W Bush used to say he talks to god every day and christians loved him for it. If he told them he spoke to god through a haridryer every day they would think he was mad......i fail to see how the addition of a hairdryer makes it anymore absurd.


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## Jux (Jul 23, 2008)

Well given that young children are taught that apostasy is punishable by death, I'd say it's not a very peaceful religion at all.


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## Matt 1 (May 8, 2010)

Milky said:


> The basics of politeness for a start, followed by a gang culture that is creeping in when these kids should be being looked after by there parents. Decency that stops gangs of kids beating a man to death or a girl for being a goth.
> 
> Do you honestly believe we are still following a good moral code in this country because l can assure you we are not.


The gang culture etc is whole different kettle of fish.

There's an entire underclass, where kids are raised by kids, they do not share the same morals as the rest of nation.


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## Milky (Nov 30, 2008)

Matt 1 said:


> The gang culture etc is whole different kettle of fish.
> 
> There's an entire underclass, where kids are raised by kids, they do not share the same morals as the rest of nation.


Totally totally agree with this.


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## Mr_Morocco (May 28, 2011)

Lloyd DA said:


> Well given that young children are taught that apostasy is punishable by death, I'd say it's not a very peaceful religion at all.


Which young children? I was never taught this nor any other muslim i know..

The countrys who enforce the full extent of Sharia Law, countries such as Iran for example, they are living in the stone ages culture wise, i agree with parts of sharia law but thats because i've researched what it is myself, nobody has ever forced me or taught me about it.

Young children in this country are being told Muslims are terrorists and are not peaceful. People like you believe it without doing any research into the religion what so ever.


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## usernameneeded (Sep 24, 2009)

I think that you should abide by the laws of the place you are , I get that there will be diff views on things but it's the ones who want to change or live by a diff set of rules I have a problem with .

I don't want to give a religion or group of people because I don't know exactly who they are , but the people who come here and want to wear veils or burkas "because they do in there country" or build mosques because there's no where to pray .

Or bring all these things from there country to ours " I guess so it feels more like home" .

The fact of the matter should be if this country doesn't have the things you need or the things u practice or belive in , then u need to find a middle ground and adapt to "it" If u don't like it don't come to "here"

If u don't like the fact u can't wear a vail or there's no mosques to pray or the way we deal with crime or our laws and belifes . THEN DONT COME

If we or anybody else went to their countries and tried to change things we would be killed without a 2nd thought so how come it can happen here??


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## Malibu (May 13, 2010)

Not being able to wear a veil is basically taking away a human right. Its the same as telling people they cant wear the colour black/white/yellow because it could offend people, plus this country actually tries to be multi cultural, so it welcomes other races and religions, so of course they are going to build places of worship. I see people on here only saying but they build mosques!!!!! Well what about the Hindu temples/ Jewish sinogogs. People only attack Islam because the media tells them to, bu telling them we're terrorists bla bla


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## Mr_Morocco (May 28, 2011)

usernameneeded said:


> I think that you should abide by the laws of the place you are , I get that there will be diff views on things but it's the ones who want to change or live by a diff set of rules I have a problem with .
> 
> I don't want to give a religion or group of people because I don't know exactly who they are , but the people who come here and want to wear veils or burkas "because they do in there country" or build mosques because there's no where to pray .
> 
> ...


The veil is a much discussed item in Islam. It's part of the religion so if women want to wear it they can, its just the same as sikhs have to wear turbans and carry knifes, the same as jews wearing there black hats.

"there country" so if these women are born in the UK, they're still not British because there religion is Islam?


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## Mr_Morocco (May 28, 2011)

rjohal said:


> No such link exists. I have lived in predominantly Muslim areas all over the UK and my understanding is the vast majority of Muslims are more than happy with UK laws and do not want Sharia law implemented.
> 
> There may be a small portion of extremists who shout the loudest that do want Sharia, and unfortunately cause people to make sweeping statements and take this view as the view of the entire Muslim population in the UK.
> 
> ...


These people are delusional mate, they believe everything they read or see on t.v. I bet hardly any of them knew of Beth Din, but i doubt a thread will be made called "Judasim and Beth Din.


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## usernameneeded (Sep 24, 2009)

Malibu said:


> Not being able to wear a veil is basically taking away a human right. Its the same as telling people they cant wear the colour black/white/yellow because it could offend people, plus this country actually tries to be multi cultural, so it welcomes other races and religions, so of course they are going to build places of worship. I see people on here only saying but they build mosques!!!!! Well what about the Hindu temples/ Jewish sinogogs. People only attack Islam because the media tells them to, bu telling them we're terrorists bla bla


Yeah a human right in there country if they know that it wouldn't be allowed here and they decide to come here that have made there choice

And as I said I wasn't mentioning a certain group of people or religion so the mention of mosques would include temples and sinagogs


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## Malibu (May 13, 2010)

usernameneeded said:


> Yeah a human right in there country if they know that it wouldn't be allowed here and they decide to come here that have made there choice
> 
> And as I said I wasn't mentioning a certain group of people or religion so the mention of mosques would include temples and sinagogs


So its not a human right in this country to wear whatever you want?


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## usernameneeded (Sep 24, 2009)

Afghan said:


> The veil is a much discussed item in Islam. It's part of the religion so if women want to wear it they can, its just the same as sikhs have to wear turbans and carry knifes, the same as jews wearing there black hats.
> 
> "there country" so if these women are born in the UK, they're still not British because there religion is Islam?


Yeah "in Islam" and part of there religion

And the other people would aslo know what was allowed and what wasn't and would then decide if they wasnted to live somewere it wasn't allowed weather they wanted to keep that part and stay were they were or if they could let it go to live the place it wasn't allowed


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## usernameneeded (Sep 24, 2009)

Malibu said:


> So its not a human right in this country to wear whatever you want?


But if I wanted to go to their countries and walk around with no top on because it was my human right , would I be allowed to or would I get stoned to death or killed because it itsnt in there way of thinking or was offensive to them or not allowed in there country.

I wouldn't have the same justification of saying well in my country I can , or well it's allowed in Britain


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## Ironclad (Jun 23, 2009)

Afghan said:


> The veil is a much discussed item in Islam. It's part of the religion so if women want to wear it they can..


No it isn't. Not that I am aware of; can you show me where in The Book it says the veil is a requirement?

The word I see is modesty, the rest is Afghan interpretation and an enforced cultural demand that appears to have been taken up by some in the UK, in the last decade the niqab-wearer is popping up all over. It is quite alien to us, and it should be to the woman too.

Jewish hats are hardly an issue.

The Kirpan is an issue as some have tried to wear it to school, but this is being discussed. Some wear a badge instead until they are away from a public building.


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## eezy1 (Dec 14, 2010)

lol how the frig do they/you think theyre gonna implement sharia law in the UK. get real it aint happening so dont even worry about it


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## Ironclad (Jun 23, 2009)

Milky said:


> The basics of politeness for a start, followed by a gang culture that is creeping in when these kids should be being looked after by there parents. Decency that stops gangs of kids beating a man to death or a girl for being a goth.
> 
> Do you honestly believe we are still following a good moral code in this country because l can assure you we are not.


I was after the reason why Delhi thinks installing Sharia Law into our system would give us (back) common decency.

A country with this Law does not have fewer problems, it just deals with them in another way.

The breakdown of the nuclear family is part our problem, the Indians and the Pakistanis are closer in the way we once were; but this is already fragmenting. In our Western world there are more opportunities for those who look further than the end of the street they live in. We don't all work down pit no more, or live like Coronation St.


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## Mr_Morocco (May 28, 2011)

Ironclad said:


> No it isn't. Not that I am aware of; can you show me where in The Book it says the veil is a requirement?
> 
> The word I see is modesty, the rest is Afghan interpretation and an enforced cultural demand that appears to have been taken up by some in the UK, in the last decade the niqab-wearer is popping up all over. It is quite alien to us, and it should be to the woman too.
> 
> ...


I didnt say it was a requirement, i said it is a much discussed issue, you get the people who say its a requirement from the age of 16 and you get the others who say its not a requirement. Islam is not just the Quran, you have books called 'hadiths' which are written by prophets and different scholars. People tend to stick to one scholar and follow what they say, 1 may say its a requirement 1 might say its not. Me personally, if a Muslim women wants to wear a veil then i dont see the problem, its her choice and if she feels she wants to wear it then good for her.


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## andyfrance001 (Jan 11, 2011)

This thread should be taken off, its a bodybuilding site not for religion if i wanted to see this i would go look on a religeous site.


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## Mr_Morocco (May 28, 2011)

andyfrance001 said:


> This thread should be taken off, its a bodybuilding site not for religion if i wanted to see this i would go look on a religeous site.


This is the "General Section" where anything can be discussed. It's an interesting debate with mostly intelligent posts so i dont see a problem.


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## usernameneeded (Sep 24, 2009)

rjohal said:


> I think you're confused. Muslim women don't wear veils because of their country of origin, their religion instructs them to.
> 
> Based on your examples, I think you'll find that by wearing the veil or building Mosques no UK law is being broken so your point about "if you don't like it don't come here" holds no value.
> 
> You're talking about immigration when the thread is about Sharia law, two very different things.


I put at the start of my points I didn't know all religions and belifes and I was giving an instance

My point was about picking and choosing what was relevent to themselves as in people want certain things such as there own law rather than the law that is in the place they are if u take away my referances my point still stands that people move here because they like the place or the things it offers but then want there own laws or religions to b accepted.

I'm not saying anything is either right or wrong what I'm saying is that people come here then want there own way

As I said it we tried going over to there countries and doing the same things it would be met with great resistance


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## usernameneeded (Sep 24, 2009)

rjohal said:


> You constantly talk about things that are "not allowed here" and ""people who decide to come here"
> 
> The aspects of Islam being practised in the UK currently such as wearing veils and building mosques and implementing certain aspects of Sharia for civil matters are perfectly within UK law.
> 
> ...


No what I'm saying is if we went to there and started saying let's build churches or walk around with no top on or anything that is diff than over there you would b killed for not doing as they do


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## Mr_Morocco (May 28, 2011)

usernameneeded said:


> No what I'm saying is if we went to there and started saying let's build churches or walk around with no top on or anything that is diff than over there you would b killed for not doing as they do


Where is *there* for Muslims who are born in Britain?


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## dbgallery (Mar 10, 2011)

Glassback said:


> What I find interesting is when you talk religion with a scientist - *you just cant believe in a God after speaking to a scientist and science is disproving these strange beliefs all the time. *I dont want this subject to fall in to arguing but I have been in some sh!tty situations in my life, one of them war and I served with some very religious people, people I admire and everyone came back non religious. I dont think you can use this as a statistic but there are some things you see in life and you say "There just can NOT be a God" and for me that is enough yet I still read about religion and science to widen my views.


Hey c'mon. That's a bit of a massive generalisation. There's loads of physicists that aren't athiests. For one Einstein wouldn't rule out the existence of God and science certainly isn't disproving God. Quantum Physics discoveries are becoming more bizarre and unexplainable year after year

Slightly off topic I know but felt a need to share (i'm agnostic btw)


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## MRSTRONG (Apr 18, 2009)

i think its time to go back to the op .

i have heard of sharia law can anybody explain what it is , i dont just mean saying well its a law muslims follow in certain countries .

keep this on topic and explain this law to all please if anyone can ?


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## usernameneeded (Sep 24, 2009)

Afghan said:


> Where is *there* for Muslims who are born in Britain?


It was more about the changes of people who came knowing our laws as in the op and then saying we should do.........

My point was more of if anything is opposed it normally gets the well we should b allowed to do this that and the other, same as people said what about the human rights or why shouldn't they be allowed to do x,y,z

I was more saying u shouldn't try and change things or moan about it being opposed when they have moved from somewere to here when they came because they like the way we are , but then want to try and make it more like back home

I'm not being extremist or raceist i don't think was just making a point


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## johnny_lee (Jun 15, 2011)

Sharia law along wit that ****ing burka ****e can **** of.


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## MRSTRONG (Apr 18, 2009)

rjohal said:


> I'm not Muslim but from my understanding it is a specific set of guidelines and laws for Muslims. It covers many aspects of life such as crime and civil matters which can't all be covered here.
> 
> As far as I understand from Muslims friends and colleagues there is no need for Sharia to be implemented where it contradicts the law of the land or if the laws of your country of residence are compatible with Islam.
> 
> This suggests to me that UK law has no restriction on Muslims in the UK so there is no need for Sharia to be implemented here. I would hope the majority of Muslims in the UK are satisfied with UK laws as the majority go through the UK courts for civil matters, divorce, wills, trusts, inheritance etc even though they have Sharia courts available.


some of the legal points of sharia of my knowledge of them could be well placed in the modern day uk .

as i understand it a rapist for example would get 50 lashings ?

or a theif have a hand chopped off ?

i agree tad harsh for a penny chew but a severe penalty for a severe crime would be just .

having the option to hang a killer or send a terrorist/rapist/pedo to a quarry to turn big rocks into gravel imo is a good thing .

prisons do not turn 99% of criminals into nice people , it took me a few very sad experiences in life to turn the page and follow a law abiding lifestyle where by my only grey area is taking gear .

maybe having harsh judicial options would stop asbo kids and other sh1ts running a mock ?


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## ekko (Dec 3, 2008)

"law of the land" Any Muslim that wishes to settle on ours should abide by ours as we WOULD have to on theres.

Not saying we couldnt learn a thing or two though.

Having said that our laws were just fine until the human rights act was intriduced and politicians lost there grip on common sense, thats the real issue.

sad thing is it wasnt that long ago


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## essexboy (Sep 7, 2008)

Afghan said:


> Hold on a minute people. Can someone provide a link or information where the Muslim Community in the UK want to inforce Sharia Law onto the whole of the UK? I was under the impression that they wanted to take certain laws like marriage and use Sharia Law. I see no problem with that, they can use whatever law they want.
> 
> It's people like essexboy and the media who have seriously hyped Islam so far that terms such as "the muslims are going to outnumber europeans" or "germany will be the first muslim state" i was born in England into a Muslim family, although i dont practice it at all i consider myself British. In people like essexboys eyes and the media im not British im Muslim, religion and your nationality are two different things so please dont make silly statements.


Your post speaks volumes of your mindset.I quote "they can use whatever law they want" So you thinks its fine to diregard the laws of the country that you live in, and abide by your own laws? In any other terms, we call that anarchy.

Im not hyping a thing.Im merely repeating facts.If you consider yourself British thats fine.However, the interpretation of what British is maybe different.If I was called upon to go and fight other white Europeans, as happened during 1939-45.Then I would have.However,experience seems to indicate, that Many Muslims would have a problem defending this country (and its mainly white population)against insurgence perpetrated by other Muslims.This is what causes me to question how "British" many Muslims deem themselves to be.It would seem they are Muslim first and British second.

It seems that many of the higher profile Muslim groups wil not criticise acts of violence or agression perpetrated by othe Muslims.Where were the Muslim clerics, who are constantly defending Islam when 9/11 & the london bombings happened, very quiet werent they?

If Muslims as a group, religion or whatever, actually tried to adopt some of the values we hold so high,and actually spoke out against these cowardly murderers, perhaps they wouldnt be treated with as much suspicion.


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## Jux (Jul 23, 2008)

Afghan said:


> Which young children? I was never taught this nor any other muslim i know..
> 
> The countrys who enforce the full extent of Sharia Law, countries such as Iran for example, they are living in the stone ages culture wise, i agree with parts of sharia law but thats because i've researched what it is myself, nobody has ever forced me or taught me about it.
> 
> Young children in this country are being told Muslims are terrorists and are not peaceful. People like you believe it without doing any research into the religion what so ever.


You may not have been, but many do- 4:89 of the Qur'an goes on to say that those who renounce their faith should be killed.


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## Ian_Montrose (Nov 13, 2007)

The UK is a democracy. Implementing Sharia law would mean passing control of some, or all, of our legal system to unelected religious leaders and so is fundamentally undemocratic. The influence of any church should effect only those who voluntarily walk through its doors and no-one else.


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## MRSTRONG (Apr 18, 2009)

Ian_Montrose said:


> The UK is a democracy. Implementing Sharia law would mean passing control of some, or all, of our legal system to unelected religious leaders and so is fundamentally undemocratic. The influence of any church should effect only those who voluntarily walk through its doors and no-one else.


i suggest you go look over medieval torture methods and justice system it aint to far from sharia law and was backed by the church .

im not saying use islamic leaders but merely saying some of the methods of justice would be more apt to the severe acts of crime .

a man entering anothers house to rob or steal items should have his rights removed once in a property if the intruder dies then no legal action should be taken towards the home owner , this as i understand it is under sharia law ?


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## johnny_lee (Jun 15, 2011)

rjohal said:


> Such an eloquent and logical response, you should be proud of yourself :yawn:


vey proud indeed this is not the middel east we dont want that ****e here blunt as ive got to be its the truth.


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## Jux (Jul 23, 2008)

The Qur'an is synonymous with islam, as is the bible with christianity ...

I'm sorry I must have misread then, obviously I missed the sarcastic tone that preceded the excerpt.

This too highlights one of the many problems with religious scripture, the many, many ways in which it can be misconstrued. The fact of the matter is it could and has, to the detriment of those who have tried to renounce faith.

I don't have a vendetta against faith, just how it can be used as a tool to control those who are most vulnerable. This same anger also applies to the media and how they control people.

No doubt many religious folk lead full and independent lives, but there are those, as seen in the middle east who are held under the oppressive thumb of their relgion.


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## achilles88 (Aug 27, 2010)

johnny_lee said:


> Sharia law along wit that ****ing burka ****e can **** of.


u son are an uneducated little cvnt, go get a life u fvcking chav


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## Conscript (Sep 5, 2010)

Now now people lets keep this clean and above the belt...


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## johnny_lee (Jun 15, 2011)

achilles88 said:


> u son are an uneducated little cvnt, go get a life u fvcking chav


so having a view is having no life? one day youll realise that islam is only out for one thing world domination


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## essexboy (Sep 7, 2008)

rjohal said:


> Some Muslims may have a problem with defending this country against Islamic extremists but IME this a small portion of UK Muslims.
> 
> Did you enter every Mosque/Islamic centre in the UK to confidently imply that the vast majority of UK Muslims did not heavily criticise 9/11, 7/7 etc?
> 
> ...


Good Job.Youve disregarded my question and simply posted an opinion.I dont know why UK Muslims wouldnt crticise murderers, you tell me!The fact is they didnt.What they do instead is preach hatred and bloodshed, because of a cartoon.Thats how ridiculous they are.As long as Islam is continuing to grow the agenda ( and we all know what it is) is being fufilled.


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## Jux (Jul 23, 2008)

johnny_lee said:


> so having a view is having no life? one day youll realise that islam is only out for one thing world domination


There's having a view, then there's putting that view across.


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## essexboy (Sep 7, 2008)

johnny_lee said:


> so having a view is having no life? one day youll realise that islam is only out for one thing world domination


His post may not has been particulalary eloquent, however its 100% accurate.


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## johnny_lee (Jun 15, 2011)

rjohal said:


> Another uneducated response IMO.
> 
> Are you aware of the Jewish extremists/Zionists?
> 
> Probably not as you're not interested in their views on world domination but would rather focus on Islamic extremists as it's just easier hey.


when have jewish extremists cuased terroritst attacks like islamic extrmeists


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## Slight of hand (Sep 30, 2008)

Malibu said:


> Not being able to wear a veil is basically taking away a human right. Its the same as telling people they cant wear the colour black/white/yellow because it could offend people, plus this country actually tries to be multi cultural, so it welcomes other races and religions, so of course they are going to build places of worship. I see people on here only saying but they build mosques!!!!! *Well what about the Hindu temples/ Jewish sinogogs. People only attack Islam because the media tells them to, bu telling them we're terrorists bla bla*


Unfortunatly this is very true but at the moment the biggest issues of the moment are with Islam. Your faith is growing like never before and guess what! Anglos saxons are scared. Islamic sphere of influence is reaching out and changing the face of the UK, problems are on both sides - the OP demonstrates this by the very thread.

By 2050 once Islam is the majority political force in the UK (and it WILL be) then the constitution will be changed, then the real party will begin.


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## Slight of hand (Sep 30, 2008)

rjohal said:


> So because some people have caused terrorist attacks in the name of Islam it's ok for you to discriminate and focus on Islam and all Muslims?
> 
> Are you not aware of terrorist attacks on innocent Palestinians by Jewish extremists?
> 
> ...


oh, don't dare say anything about the Jew, the USA and europe create their own unique set of rules enshrined in law for the Jew - the same state that has committed more breaches of UN resolutions than Saddam ever did. Caulkes Fire.


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## johnny_lee (Jun 15, 2011)

Alirght why are muslims treated differently why do they get speciel bank acounts with no bank charges why do i get told to remove a hoodie when walking through a shopping centre yet muslims walk through with there viels and use these for robberies? im all for equality im from a comunity that is proberlly treated the most unfairest in this country and made to look like scum when your people get to live of goverments get looked after like they desreve it for speaking hatred agianst a county they live in, if i was to threaten attacks on a mosque ild be arrested straight away yet the terrorists are given houses and protected


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

Can people please refrain from calling each other names... I understand this is a debate that gets people passionate, but please, even in disagreement, keep posts polite and respectful.


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## Ironclad (Jun 23, 2009)

Back on topic.

You cannot have Sharia Law in the UK. The UK is a secular country: separation of church and state.

We also will not allow it to take hold because we like to protect people from abuse, and although we should not just look at Saudi-style Sharia 'justice' (beheadings/dismemberment) unfortunately we do. For example, apostasy.. a dim view is taken on apostasy, dim as in deadly. Yet here in the UK we protect people's right to live an unabused life, if that means Muslims escaping (Council of Ex-Muslims) then this is where we step in.

That said, Sharia IS being used in limited form: banks now provided 'Islamic mortgages' (whatever that means); and I think Islamic Family Law is supported by UKs legal system (recognised). So, no need to cry.


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## lukeee (Aug 17, 2009)

Slight of hand said:


> Unfortunatly this is very true but at the moment the biggest issues of the moment are with Islam. Your faith is growing like never before and guess what! Anglos saxons are scared. Islamic sphere of influence is reaching out and changing the face of the UK, problems are on both sides - the OP demonstrates this by the very thread.
> 
> By 2050 once Islam is the majority political force in the UK (and it WILL be) then the constitution will be changed, then the real party will begin.


You dont surely believe that do you?????


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## Bert Stare (Aug 5, 2011)

Half of Muslim men and three quarters of Muslim women are unemployed.

am I the only one who thinks this is ridiculous


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## Conscript (Sep 5, 2010)

Bert Stare said:


> Half of Muslim men and three quarters of Muslim women are unemployed.
> 
> am I the only one who thinks this is ridiculous


I find that statement quite ambiguous, what is your point mate, please expand...


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## 12 gauge (Jul 16, 2011)

essexboy said:


> In my mind that means you are stupid.
> 
> you would view me with distain


The word you're looking for is disdain not "distain," stupid.


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## 12 gauge (Jul 16, 2011)

Bert Stare said:


> Half of Muslim men and three quarters of Muslim women are unemployed.
> 
> am I the only one who thinks this is ridiculous


The reference for that is?


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## Conscript (Sep 5, 2010)

12 gauge said:


> The word you*'re* looking for is disdain not "distain," stupid.


:laugh: that made me chuckle that did!


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## 12 gauge (Jul 16, 2011)

Conscript said:


> :laugh: that made me chuckle that did!


Thanks for pointing it out noted and I will correct it


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## 12 gauge (Jul 16, 2011)

Ironclad said:


> Back on topic.
> 
> You cannot have Sharia Law in the UK. The UK is a secular country: separation of church and state.


You'd think there were millions marching in the streets demanding sharia law now,



Ironclad said:


> That said, Sharia IS being used in limited form: banks now provided 'Islamic mortgages' (whatever that means); and I think Islamic Family Law is supported by UKs legal system (recognised). So, no need to cry.


Well that is the freedom of choice we pride our selves on, if someone wants to refer a civil matter to a sharia judge why all the hoo ha when the jews have been doing it for years?


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## Anonymous (Jan 20, 2011)

Just been reading this thread and some of the comments are absolutely retarded.

To the guy who said 'If a poor man cannot feed his family and steals, His hand will get cut off - Barbaric!' - This is not true you IDIOT. Islam is infact very lenient and many of the sharia punishments depend on the context of the crime, Its harsh but fair. He would be let off but warned from stealing and most likely offered alternatives, Heck they'd probably offer him an oppurtunity for a job to better himself.

To the guy who said Islam is barbaris regarding **** sexuality, Okay, You cannot argue that islam doesn't punish homosexuality but again its actually very permitting. Although **** sexuality isn't allowed, Sharia law will only punish homosexuals if acts of homosexuality are performed within public and are seen by 3 seperate trust worthy witnesses. See what I'm saying?

All I request is that If you don't have a proper understanding of islam or sharia then stop spouting your **** about as if your a wise man and corrupting peoples minds against islam/sharia.



Ironclad said:


> Back on topic.
> 
> You cannot have Sharia Law in the UK. The UK is a secular country: separation of church and state.
> 
> ...


Seen a few of your posts in the thread, I got one or two things to say..

First of all you seem to have a decent understanding of islam/sharia and some of your opinions/comments I like but what I didn't like was in one post you stated british culture was about 'Freedom of speech, thought and opinion' but then on the other post you said 'Anyone who feels/discusses in a way to say that sharia should be established in the UK should **** right off' - Being hypocritical? Lol.

Secondly in the above post it seems that you say sharia will never have a place in the UK but infact although I don't agree with it, We live in reality and in reality islam is the fastest growing religion in the world, muslims in general have many more kids than others and reality states that in probably 50 years time the amount of muslims will outnumber any other in the UK and this is when they will take over.

Sharia doesn't belong in the UK, Since we have our own systems, but majority rules.

I beleive that when the great british empire ruled we established ourselves by invading other countries and taking over, What goes around comes around, Its now our turn to be taken over and it ain't gonna be pretty. We ****ed with browns and blacks and now they're gonna **** with us.

I am 100% british and although I don't agree with some of the stuff above or like it, it will happen... look around...


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## essexboy (Sep 7, 2008)

12 gauge said:


> The word you're looking for is disdain not "distain," stupid.


Ok so a spelling error renders me stupid.Whatever you think bigboy.


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## Lewis92 (Jun 8, 2009)

bbc 3 world strictest parents on now with a muslim family showing loads about the rules etc


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## Ironclad (Jun 23, 2009)

Anonymous said:


> First of all you seem to have a decent understanding of islam/sharia and some of your opinions/comments I like but what I didn't like was in one post you stated british culture was about 'Freedom of speech, thought and opinion' but then on the other post you said 'Anyone who feels/discusses in a way to say that sharia should be established in the UK should **** right off' - Being hypocritical? Lol.


No, I don't think so. Parts of Sharia are being used in limited ways, as i've pointed out. However I feel that full-on Sharia is incompatible with UK law and UK standards. Ergo, Sharia and it's patrons can get bent.

Shall we find out why? Let's use your own thoughts..



> To the guy who said Islam is barbaris regarding **** sexuality, Okay, You cannot argue that islam doesn't punish homosexuality but again its actually very permitting. Although **** sexuality isn't allowed, Sharia law will only punish homosexuals if acts of homosexuality are performed within public and are seen by 3 seperate trust worthy witnesses. See what I'm saying?


*THIS* looks like a good starting point. It has taken decades for people to be open with their sexuality here, 100s of years really. What people do with their own time has no bearing on my life, you life or any one else for that matter. People want to live their life in a way that makes them happy and is not harming anyone else, just like you do.

Sex in public is illegal already. "3 witnesses" in a behind the scenes religious 'courtroom' may leave the accused open to abuse. It is a poor idea, however reliable these witnesses are.

To add; in some Sharia dominated parts open affection between any couple of any gender, even the married, is jail-able! Why?! Pathetic..



> All I request is that If you don't have a proper understanding of islam or sharia then stop spouting your **** about as if your a wise man and corrupting peoples minds against islam/sharia.


This is a discussion pal. Educate folk by telling them about it or nobody's the wiser. Or leave the thread if you cannot contain yourself.

The world is not Islamic, it is time to embrace the wider world guy.


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## cub (Jul 14, 2011)

Anonymous said:


> To the guy who said Islam is barbaris regarding **** sexuality, Okay, You cannot argue that islam doesn't punish homosexuality but again its actually very permitting. Although **** sexuality isn't allowed, Sharia law will only punish homosexuals if acts of homosexuality are performed within public and are seen by 3 seperate trust worthy witnesses. See what I'm saying?


But gay people are still executed in theocratic Muslims states, for example in Iran (Shia) and Saudi Arabia (Sunni). To execute gay people is within mainstream Muslim thought, justified by the Koran, which is taken literally.



Anonymous said:


> We live in reality and in reality islam is the fastest growing religion in the world, muslims in general have many more kids than others and reality states that in probably 50 years time the amount of muslims will outnumber any other in the UK and this is when they will take over.
> 
> Sharia doesn't belong in the UK, Since we have our own systems, but majority rules.
> 
> ...


Sounds like you want that to happen to be honest.


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## Glassback (Jun 18, 2010)

This thread, a very appropriate thread, has turned in to a bunch of kids and idiots picking at each others statements.

I really wish this forum was a pub becasue the majority of you would be far less offensive in what you say and how you say it when infront of the person you say it to.


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## Anonymous (Jan 20, 2011)

Don't want it to happen at all but it will matey,

When the british empire invaded other countries and took them over we didn't give a **** did we? We ransacked those countries for EVERYTHING they had. Some of the biggest and most beautiful diamonds/gold/other valuable jewels in the royal jewels came from India? LOL!

Now, 100s of years on those people who we took advantage of have advanced and now its their time to thrive, these guys are gonna ram our anuses, not literally since they'd kill you for that, lols.

The reality is that it will happen and many of you guys who express their opinions against sharia and islam should hope that they are dead in 50 years time or be ready to accept sharia/islam - otherwise you will fell the wrath of the majority.

Too scared to accept the inevitable? Its already happening like you said.

I am 100% british and I don't like it either but if you can't beat em, join em


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## Ironclad (Jun 23, 2009)

I want to know wtf he means by



> We ****ed with browns and blacks and now they're gonna **** with us.


Then I want to know what he means by



> Its now our turn to be taken over and it ain't gonna be pretty.


 Which, if it says what I think it says (poor typing) is a fvcking disingenuous call for a fight.

What is getting under your skin Anonymous?

EDIT: I see you replied too quick, fair enuff.


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## Conscript (Sep 5, 2010)

Glassback said:


> This thread, a very appropriate thread, has turned in to a bunch of kids and idiots picking at each others statements.
> 
> I really wish this forum was a pub becasue the majority of you would be far less offensive in what you say and how you say it when infront of the person you say it to.


SHUT IT!!!  :beer:


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## cub (Jul 14, 2011)

Anonymous said:


> Don't want it to happen at all but it will matey,
> 
> When the british empire invaded other countries and took them over we didn't give a **** did we? We ransacked those countries for EVERYTHING they had. Some of the biggest and most beautiful diamonds/gold/other valuable jewels in the royal jewels came from India? LOL!
> 
> ...


It isn't inevitable, it's due to decisions on immigration by successive British governments since the war. It could of been prevented.


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## Conscript (Sep 5, 2010)

There is some very self-loathing and bitter undertones being conveyed in this thread today.

But do I think Islam will dominate the UK, no I don't. The british as many other european countries are some warring mofos by nature, I don't think it would be prudent to push these people over the edge.


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

guys stop name calling and try for once to have a debate like adults without resorting to insults.......if you do not agree with another members opinion either argue your point without insults or don't comment at all.......the next member to insult another will be banned.


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## Anonymous (Jan 20, 2011)

Conscript said:


> There is some very self-loathing and bitter undertones being conveyed in this thread today.
> 
> But do I think Islam will dominate the UK, no I don't. The british as many other european countries are some warring mofos by nature, I don't think it would be prudent to push these people over the edge.


Lol mate I don't know where you got that idea from, Afghans/Pathaans are known to be some of the most notorious and survivalist fighthers, these guys are hard as ****.

I think the main reason we won't win is because muslims are not afraid of death, if they die fighting for islam they are granted heaven.


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## Ironclad (Jun 23, 2009)

@ Anonymous: It won't happen fella. What will happen is people with a smug expression like you are wearing right now will get a little too cocky and we'll all end up in a civil war, but then you are wearing that smug expression - so you don't care. Islam is coming, right?

Here's a little education for you. Islam is the fasted growing religion *BY CONVERSION*, but the rate is decreasing year on year*. Parts of the Muslim world have rapid birth-rates (something else to add the numbers of global domination?) but also very high mortality rates. Sorry pal, if you cackle from your tower like an insane wizard watching the impending take-over.. i'd rethink, maybe count your friends on 'both sides'. Who knows, maybe one day (50 years was it?) you will need US to save YOUR ass. haha

Seriously, relax dude.. 

*the non-religious (agnostic, atheist, deist etc) are not counted and could represent a bigger group.


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## Conscript (Sep 5, 2010)

Anonymous said:


> Lol mate I don't know where you got that idea from, Afghans/Pathaans are known to be some of the most notorious and survivalist fighthers, these guys are hard as ****.
> 
> I think the main reason we won't win is because muslims are not afraid of death, if they die fighting for islam they are granted heaven.


If you study the history of the world you will see that when Europe has civil discontent it will lead to the most profound of uprisings that still echo through the world today...


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## Raptor (Feb 16, 2010)

I've not read the thread but what i will say that certain religions can't be good when they advocate blowing people up


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

Raptor said:


> I've not read the thread but what i will say that certain religions can't be good when they advocate blowing people up


from the very little that i know about the muslim faith i don't actually think the religion advocates this it is more the interpretation of the few extremests........i think???


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

There's a slight misconception in the prediction of Islam growing at enormous rates... true it is the fastest growing of the abrahamic faiths (christianity has long been on decline in the west, and judaism is a racial religion that doesn't seek active recruitment), but the 'domination of Islam in fifty years' is just right wing nonsense focused to try to heat things up.

In truth no one can accurately predict what percentage of the population will have what religious beliefs fifity years before time, but a more realistic mathematical extrapolation of the figures is this from the article linked below:



> It's a growth rate of 2.5%, at which, the back of my *** packet tells me, it will take 280 years for their numbers [muslims] to double to 8% [of the uk population]. Not time to panic yet.


 http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2011/jan/08/islam-uk-growth-muslims


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## Raptor (Feb 16, 2010)

Pscarb said:


> from the very little that i know about the muslim faith i don't actually think the religion advocates this it is more the interpretation of the few extremests........i think???


Yeah but it seems to get lost in translation, and innocent people are killed as they think its the right thing to do

In my opinion all religion is made up tbh


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## cub (Jul 14, 2011)

rjohal said:


> You are incorrect, the execution of gay people is within what I would refer to as extremist Islamic thought. These are established Islamic countries where the law of the land is indeed based around Sharia.
> 
> You clearly have no knowledge of the Quran as the verses are not "taken literally" by the vast majority of Muslims.
> 
> If you look into the different sects within Islam the majority have various commentaries and explanations, sometimes covering four or five pages of A4 of extensive research on just one verse in one chapter. This research would cover different views and interpretations depending on many factors.


How can it be extremist when it is the majority? The majority of Muslim-majority countries do not allow homosexuality. That is a fact.

I am not denying there is a difference of interpretation between Islamic scholars: they disagree on the appropriate punishment, not whether it should be punished or not.

Like I said before, it's no coincidence that out of all the countries in the Middle East, the one with the best gay rights record is the only non-Muslim one! (Israel)


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## BF200K (Jul 4, 2010)

Honestly a thread on Islam either never ends or gets closed. My post mainly contains lots of small statements that have come as the result of what I have read so far.

I put money on the fact that perhaps the majority of the people hating on Islam in this thread have never read the Quran for themselves or spent much time in the

company of Muslim people. The bible too has some rather violent passages that you may like to randomly quote?!

In the last ten years I have seen a massive increase in the amount of Muslim doctors, dentists, lawyers, accountants, IT professionals and other well respected careers.

I have also watched the new generation of white Christians grow into some of the laziest, job-seeking bell-ends out there who will happily go out and join groups like

the EDL and march against a threat that has been as over-hyped as bird-flu!

You may be able to knock Muslims for some of their beliefs but certainly not their parenting.

I'm sure all anti-Islamic people here would turn down urgent medical assistance from a Muslim doctor?

AS FOR POPPY BURNING..

Have any of you even thought that some of their anger may stem from the thousands and thousands of INNOCENT people killed in Iraq and Afghanistan since the start

of the war? mothers/fathers/cousins/brothers/sisters all slain by British and American troops.

Don't even know why I bothered contributing to this thread with so few people speaking sense and from knowledge. So sad.


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## Mikazagreat (Apr 10, 2009)

I will just give the guys here an advise, don't take knowledge about islam from a muslim friend, or from a media hype, go read yourself.


----------



## Conscript (Sep 5, 2010)

BF200K said:


> AS FOR POPPY BURNING..
> 
> Have any of you even thought that some of their anger may stem from the thousands and thousands of INNOCENT people killed in Iraq and Afghanistan since the start
> 
> of the war? mothers/fathers/cousins/brothers/sisters all slain by British and American troops.


Don't hate the player hate the game, it was not the brothers/sisters/mothers/fathers of the troops who fell who signed the documents and sent our troops to do the dirty work, it was blair, that hypocrite mofo who champions human rights....


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

Raptor said:


> I've not read the thread but what i will say that certain religions can't be good when they advocate blowing people up


It's only the extremist islamic 'cults' which advocate this - where islam has been tainted by politics. This is much the same as christian right wingers like the KKK (protestant christians)... and the same as extremist zionist jews who believe that the only solution to the israeli palestinian problem is to exterminate all the palestinians in the region.

Neither group represents the true teachings of their faith, nor the massive silent majority of worshpers of those faiths who quietly get on with life day by day and don't make any headlines and don't do anything hateful.

These debates always seem to lose track of that silent majority of peaceful, non extremist, decent people that make up the the body of most religions (and the majority of atheists too).


----------



## cub (Jul 14, 2011)

BF200K said:


> I put money on the fact that perhaps the majority of the people hating on Islam in this thread have never read the Quran for themselves or spent much time in the
> 
> company of Muslim people.


Do you honestly think a Muslim person, if they were an extremist, would actually go round telling non-Muslims at work etc that he was? By all accounts one of the 7/7 bombers was a teacher and a polite, well-mannered man, no one suspected him of being an extremist.


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## essexboy (Sep 7, 2008)

this will tell you ALL you need to know.............


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## Ironclad (Jun 23, 2009)

Fvcking hot potato this thread. :lol:


----------



## Delhi (Dec 8, 2005)

The thread looks like it is now finally settling into a constructive discussion with the original aim (Education) being served.

I do not promote Islam, Christianity or any other religious (Or cultural ) belief, but I do promote a balanced, educated view. In the main it looks (To me) that Islam is getting a raw deal in the press and it is infact a religion of peace and is (In the main) practised by peace loving individuals. Whether Sharia would help out with the moral issues facing this country is yet to be proven (Or not).

To all muslims, I for one am more than happy that your religion be allowed and practised here in the UK as an equal to any other. I hope that one day the rest of the UK population wakes up to the media campaign and also supports your right to religious freedoms.


----------



## Ironclad (Jun 23, 2009)

Delhi said:


> The thread looks like it is now finally settling into a constructive discussion with the original aim (Education) being served.
> 
> I do not promote Islam, Christianity or any other religious (Or cultural ) belief, but I do promote a balanced, educated view. In the main it looks (To me) that Islam is getting a raw deal in the press and it is infact a religion of peace and is (In the main) practised by peace loving individuals. Whether Sharia would help out with the moral issues facing this country is yet to be proven (Or not).
> 
> To all muslims, I for one am more than happy that your religion be allowed and practised here in the UK as an equal to any other. I hope that one day the rest of the UK population wakes up to the media campaign and also supports your right to religious freedoms.


Look what you started Delhi! :lol:


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## PHHead (Aug 20, 2008)

Is this UK-Muscle or UK-Muslim lol......honestly why people come onto a BB forum and get in heated debates on religion a racial politics is beyond me!!


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## BF200K (Jul 4, 2010)

cub said:


> Do you honestly think a Muslim person, if they were an extremist, would actually go round telling non-Muslims at work etc that he was? By all accounts one of the 7/7 bombers was a teacher and a polite, well-mannered man, no one suspected him of being an extremist.


Best off just to treat them all like suicide bombers then yeah? save the confusion!


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## essexboy (Sep 7, 2008)

rjohal said:


> Islamophobia at it's finest.
> 
> Tell me essexboy, why do you appear so insecure and feel the need to resort to scaremongering?
> 
> ...


Maybe you need a lesson in simple mathematics.Its that simple.if you choose to see the demographics, Islam will at some point dominate, just as Muslims want.Ive watched the country of my forefathers, their way of life, the country they fought and died for become overwhealmed by a growing populus that treats England as conduit to achieve domination.

My family fought and died in three conflicts to preserve a way of life that is rapidly becoming eroded.im not afraid just sad.Ive had to witness the effects of trauma & injury which affects those who managed to come home.Im just maddened that the warning signs will never be heeded, anymore than they were in 1939, by a new generation of gutless, naive policticians.

The "great" people of this country are a sad relic of the past.Nobody seems to have the foresight or presence to be able to motivate and inspire anymore.There is no Churchill, or even a Thatcher, who has the courage to preserve the Britain of past generations.

im, presuming by your verherment(?) defence of Islam your a Muslim.Im sure your as good person.Your likely young though, and dont fully understand my concern.Im a lot older and rather jaded.I really should buy a home in the Costwolds.Perhaps I wouldnt feel as uncomfortable as I do when everywhere I go, I have to listen to dialects that I dont understand.Strangely ironic really, as i spent a lot of my younger years in Tottenham, with black mates.Thing is though, I never felt threatened or intimidated.Just the opposite in fact.You might gather that Im not racist (whatever that means) just unfortunately very aware.


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## Ironclad (Jun 23, 2009)

Fair play rjohal.


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## essexboy (Sep 7, 2008)

The demographics are easily viewable.If you dont "believe" them you can always view historical evidence.You say you oppose my idealogies.Im not sure you really understand what they are.If you did know you might be suprised.Your right im not willing to adapt.Why should I?.Ive never taken a penny from this country, Ive paid a substantial sum over 30 years in taxes,and at one time, would have willingly fought to defend these shores.

When I say I never felt threatened or intimidated, I was referring to a time in London with black friends, many times the only "white boy" Essentially im saying its not xenophobia(?) so it must be something else.

To be honest, im slightly taken aback that your a Sikh.Are you assuming my concerns are directed at anyone whos bloodline does not originate in England? If that is your belief your mistaken.I have the highest regard for your "lifestyle".My views on religion are concreted, and not directed at specific faiths, so dont take it personally.However, I would strongly defend your right to believe whatever you want UNLESS you view me in a negative light for not having the same beliefs.

The point of contention is agenda.I understand the agenda of Islam.

9


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## Glassback (Jun 18, 2010)

Pscarb said:


> from the very little that i know about the muslim faith i don't actually think the religion advocates this it is more the interpretation of the few extremests........i think???


I genuinely laughed out at "a few". Its a little more than that mate.

To become animalistic about it, it wouldnt 'take over' the UK. Like someone pointed out, we are not afraid of war, which is what it would be but not on a country to country scale but an innate, civil war.

The only way this will happen is if our soft ass MPs allow it and play the whole "We love everyone they love us... lets not fight" card...

I remember a situation where appeasment was applied before, with some angry Austrian guy... lets how we have a Prime minister with a backbone when this does happen.

But thats me done.. .this thread is like Vanessa Feltz at an all you can eat buffet.... it just wont end.


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## Ironclad (Jun 23, 2009)

rjohal said:


> And you are incorrect I am not Muslim but a practising Sikh and I am not "defending" Islam but putting forward my own personal views based on my experiences


Sikh? Did you say Sikh?! They are *the worst!!!!*

All they want to do is steal our wimmin as slaves and send their kids to school with 'ritual' knives, just so they can stab innocent white children!

I've got my eye on you.. :sneaky2:

...just kiddin' geezer! :rolleye:


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## essexboy (Sep 7, 2008)

Glassback said:


> I genuinely laughed out at "a few". Its a little more than that mate.
> 
> To become animalistic about it, it wouldnt 'take over' the UK. Like someone pointed out, we are not afraid of war, which is what it would be but not on a country to country scale but an innate, civil war.
> 
> ...


Austrian guy, You mean arnold right? Im done too.


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

Glassback said:


> I genuinely laughed out at "a few". Its a little more than that mate.
> 
> To become animalistic about it, it wouldnt 'take over' the UK. Like someone pointed out, we are not afraid of war, which is what it would be but not on a country to country scale but an innate, civil war.
> 
> ...


like i said mate i know very little about this....but i would think that counting the millions of Muslims all over the world it is counted as a FEW that follow extremist views or interpret the Quran wrongly.....


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## lukeee (Aug 17, 2009)

Tough ol lot the sikhs, fort many a battle on the british side if i remember rightly, bit like the Gurkhas. Fair play! (just thought id throw that in)


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## 12sec1/4 (May 25, 2009)

Delhi said:


> As for Muslim people I have found them in the main to be far more friendly and family orientated than "Western" people. Hmmmm


Are you Joking?

Have you ever been outside the UK with your eyes open??

What about Spanish or Portuguese or even Greek (my other half is Greek) infect anywhere but the UK is Warm, welcoming and Family orientated... :blink:


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## 12 gauge (Jul 16, 2011)

essexboy said:


> this will tell you ALL you need to know.............


That video is incitement to religious hatred, it is jammed packed with baseless nonsense with the sole purpose of demonising Muslims and agitating people against them.

We saw the exact same thing happen with the Jews in Nazi Germany in the 30's, the whole Jewish population was demonised by the Nazi's and we all know how that turned out don't we essexboy, or do you deny the holocaust as well?

Just to give one example of how the video you have posted is spouting rubbish (very dangerous rubbish at that) is what is said at 3:44

It states that "at 40% nations experience widespread massacres........." and then goes on to give an example of Bosnia as one of the nations that experienced a massacre due to the population of Muslims being 40%. Now only a bigoted retard who doesn't know his ar5e from a whole in the ground would accept that statement as fact, as for anyone with at least one braincell and a little bit of knowledge as to what really happened in Bosnia then they would know that it was the Bosnian Muslims who were massacred in their thousands in what was the worst genocide Europe has witnessed since world war 2.

essexboy you should be ashamed of yourself for posting such vile hate filled propaganda like you have, its exactly stuff like that, that was responsible for what happened in Norway recently.


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## saj1985 (Aug 20, 2011)

cub said:


> How can it be extremist when it is the majority? The majority of Muslim-majority countries do not allow homosexuality. That is a fact.
> 
> I am not denying there is a difference of interpretation between Islamic scholars: they disagree on the appropriate punishment, not whether it should be punished or not.
> 
> Like I said before, it's no coincidence that out of all the countries in the Middle East, the one with the *best gay rights record is the only non-Muslim one! (Israel)*


israels probably got one of the best genocide records too mate!

but you wouldn't want to talk about that would ya? :whistling:



BF200K said:


> Honestly a thread on Islam either never ends or gets closed. My post mainly contains lots of small statements that have come as the result of what I have read so far.
> 
> I put money on the fact that perhaps the majority of the people hating on Islam in this thread have never read the Quran for themselves or spent much time in the
> 
> ...


hit the nail on the head :thumb:


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## 12 gauge (Jul 16, 2011)

I wonder how my mate Nasser who's grandfather fought during the second world war for the British feels when he hears retards shouting Eee.Eee.E.D.L?


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## 12 gauge (Jul 16, 2011)

I met his brother who is still in the army last year, I wonder how he feels when he hears retards shouting Eee,Eee,E.D.L?


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

I think you are all missing the truth - Islam is not the threat, it's more likely to be the evil lord Xenu... he is soon to return to earth (Teegeeack as it's properly named) and offload another few million bad aliens frozen in alcohol and glycerol... he'll then blow them up with nuclear bombs (as he did before), and increase the ills of the world a million fold by releasing their evil spirits through the explosions... only the scientologists know this and can save us, yet so many people spend all there time arguing about Islam, Judaism and Christianity and call the scientologists crazy... honestly people, get with it :whistling:

I can instruct you all in the higher wisdom*, and am sure you'll all pass my personality test to see if you are worthy...

*in exchange for your entire life savings and totally isolating you from your friends, family, and loved ones.


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## barsnack (Mar 12, 2011)

Dtlv74 said:


> I think you are all missing the truth - Islam is not the threat, it's more likely to be the evil lord Xenu... he is soon to return to earth (Teegeeack as it's properly named) and offload another few million bad aliens frozen in alcohol and glycerol... he'll then blow them up with nuclear bombs (as he did before), and increase the ills of the world a million fold by releasing their evil spirits through the explosions... only the scientologists know this and can save us, yet so many people spend all there time arguing about Islam, Judaism and Christianity and call the scientologists crazy... honestly people, get with it :whistling:
> 
> I can instruct you all in the higher wisdom*, and am sure you'll all pass my personality test to see if you are worthy...
> 
> *in exchange for your entire life savings and totally isolating you from your friends, family, and loved ones.


Rick James can sum that comment up 'cocaines a hell of a drug'


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

barsnack said:


> Rick James can sum that comment up 'cocaines a hell of a drug'


haha, am just repeating scientology beliefs, straight headed me!

I think scientologists are very anti drugs aren't they? The real scary thing is that they believe this stuff when TOTALLY SOBER!!!


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## Ironclad (Jun 23, 2009)

The really stupid thing is L. Ron. Hubbard himself actually *SAID* it was a parody religion.

The stupid - it hurts!


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## barsnack (Mar 12, 2011)

Dtlv74 said:


> haha, am just repeating scientology beliefs, straight headed me!
> 
> I think scientologists are very anti drugs aren't they? The real scary thing is that they believe this stuff when TOTALLY SOBER!!!


think that theory was blown out of the window when this happened


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## Sub-Zero (May 2, 2011)

Mikazagreat said:


> I will just give the guys here an advise, don't take knowledge about islam from a muslim friend, or from a media hype, go read yourself.


This is very true mate, if you want to know the real Islam go and read the Quran and Hadiths( Teachings and actions of the Prophet ), you will be pleasantly suprised that it's not this evil, "terrorist" religion that the media has portrayed it as. And anyone that has spent time with a Muslim family will tell you that.

Don't let a few fanatical, extremist so called "Muslims" that you see in the media paint a picture of what Islam is, as it's not.

People always use the example of Muslims blowing themselves up to kill innocent people and say "only an evil religion, would condone such an act" and they are supposed to be martyrs. But as any Muslim knows suicide is strictly forbidden in Islam, aslong as the person is in full control of their mind, i.e. Sane and not suffering from any sort of mental illness.

In Surat An-Nisaa' Allah says "Do not kill yourselves for Allah has been Most Merciful to you". (4:29)

So suicide is a way of saying " I have lost faith in God, so I choose to end my life" and losing faith in God, in itself puts someone out the bounds of Islam.

Ok, so now why does it still happen then?

Let's use the example of the conflict in the Middle East, we living in Britain could never feel or empathise with what the Palestinian people especially kids have been through. Young children have seen their family members killed, mothers and sisters raped and had their homes destroyed by the Zionist and illegal occupation by Israel.

So when these same children are driven to despair, with absolutely nothing to lose, along comes some extremist fanatical individual to take advantage of their vulnerable state of mind for their own cause. They're "Brainwashed" and sent out to go and kill in the form of a suicide bomber. Unlike Israel, Palestine isn't being provided with weapons by the US, so you will always see images/videos of the Israeli's with the tanks, guns and the Palestinians with just rocks to throw.

Now the media will always show the aftermath of suicide bomber, but never the attacks and persecution the Palestinian people suffered that led to that incident. A bit off topic i know, but just wanted to clear a few things up.

Islam and sharia law has never condoned the killing of innocent people, It's a set of laws that were set at a time there so much inequality and injustice in the world. Yes some laws are extreme but many are for the good of humanity.

Do i believe they will be enforced here?... NO

But as long as Muslims respect British Law and majority do, then we shouldn't have a problem. It's a shame that many people have let the media and news networks educate them( and we know the media always tells the truth, don't we..lol) on what Islam is, but never once tried to study it for themselves, then come to their own conclusions.

It's pr1ks like Anjum Choudary(sp) that really are the cause for so much public hate for Islam.


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## Sub-Zero (May 2, 2011)

Glassback said:


> *I genuinely laughed out at "a few". Its a little more than that mate. *
> 
> *
> *
> ...


Sorry Glassback, but if you consider the muslim population to be between 1.2 and 1.6 billion , a "few" is the right word


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## Mr_Morocco (May 28, 2011)

Wow, i didnt think so many of you were that delusional. Seriously now stereotyping a whole religion because of a few clerics stupid speeches is just ignorant. I'd expect a 12 year old to do that but now grown men. My grandfather was an ambulance driver in world war 2, he was Muslim, born in Pakistan and came to England when he was very young.

essexboy you have so much hate in you and im guessing your a member of the EDL who go round chanting "Allah is a pedo", even that in itself is silly as the word Allah just means God.


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## essexboy (Sep 7, 2008)

No im not a member of the EDL.Nor do I shout anything, or am I filled with hate.As I previously stated im out of here.You might want to bait elsewhere.


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## Slight of hand (Sep 30, 2008)

Hey everyone

remember when the IRA were blowing up mainland UK and how we thought all Catholics were terrorists....oh wait, we didn't did we?


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## Slight of hand (Sep 30, 2008)

Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful.


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## cub (Jul 14, 2011)

Slight of hand said:


> Hey everyone
> 
> remember when the IRA were blowing up mainland UK and how we thought all Catholics were terrorists....oh wait, we didn't did we?


When ever people say this, it shows their complete ignorance of Ireland and Irish history. The Provisional IRA's aims were a 32-county socialist republic; a united Ireland. Their cause wasn't religious, unlike the Islamists.


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## 12 gauge (Jul 16, 2011)

Another E.D.L **** gearing up to go on a march.


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## Mikazagreat (Apr 10, 2009)

Sub-Zero said:


> This is very true mate, if you want to know the real Islam go and read the Quran and Hadiths( Teachings and actions of the Prophet ), you will be pleasantly suprised that it's not this evil, "terrorist" religion that the media has portrayed it as. And anyone that has spent time with a Muslim family will tell you that.
> 
> Don't let a few fanatical, extremist so called "Muslims" that you see in the media paint a picture of what Islam is, as it's not.
> 
> ...


Amazing how you liked and quoted my posts and my opinion are actually the complete opposit of yours.

You have the right to believe that the outcome of your reading is what you wrote here, but maybe it's just a big book you need more reading.

First of all those extremist you call, have their own quotes that's backing up their believes, I will not be pointing some as i can point a 100 and i really not in the mood for such an argue, and the funny part is you belamed muslim for blowing up himself "that's really bad in islam" but you haven't defended those poor people being bombed with any islamic quotes 

The problem you don't understand, There is hundreds of hate quotes, including some really nice punishments, for example cutting off 1 arm and 1 leg reversed  how nice is that !

Here is another good one, Jihad is the ultimate islamic faith, when you start fighting for god, This is thet best you can do, so those extremist aren't just bunch of hot headed guys, they are the real believers in the eyes of lots of people, go make a survey on bin laden in middle east and you will understand.

What you also don't understand, Shariah is god's law, and it's a complete law, You can't argue god's law, and you can't invent some of yours, you must look into shariah since it's the complete god's law and figure out what to be done in every case.

How do we do that ? "The acknowledged" Those are sheikhs, Those who are acknowledged with religion, who read and know everything in islam and can tell what to be done.

Well i don't belame you guys, you don't know arabic and couldn't read enough in the whole thing, but anyway there will be time when everything get translated


----------



## Slight of hand (Sep 30, 2008)

cub said:


> When ever people say this, it shows their complete ignorance of Ireland and Irish history. The Provisional IRA's aims were a 32-county socialist republic; a united Ireland. Their cause wasn't religious, unlike the Islamists.


No bud it was ethno-political - *Protestant* unionists and *Catholic* nationalists. My point was to highlight the feutility of labelling everyone the same, with religion. Perhaps a slight parallel analogy but the point is obvious nevertheless.


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## Papa Lazarou (Jul 4, 2007)

I have no probs with sharia law law to used to govern the relevant peoples who reside under it in the same way as in the UK we currently also allow Jewish law's to be used for the relevant peoples. Its been done since the 1850's for Jewish folk - what is the difference. There is no reason as far as I see why all 3 sets of laws cannot be allowed in the UK.

Sharia law does not have to govern most UK folk.


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## milzy (Aug 9, 2010)

essexboy said:


> If you want your grandchildren to be brought up in a country, that is a total distortion of the country of your forefathers, then there is nothing wrong with Islam.However, if you study the basic tenants of Islam, it seeks to dominate the world.The demographics of population growth, clearly display this.Its simply a numbers game.The muslim population is growing throughout Europe at a pace that is supassing "europeans" When, (not if) when those demographics are significantly altered, an Islamic goverment, will be elected.Then you will have all the Shaira law you want.
> 
> The first to suffer will be Seihks & Hindis.Whether or not any supression will be then directed against "christians" is anyones guess.
> 
> The prime minister Of Germany stated."Germany will be a Muslim state in 50 years" They will be preying for the National Socialists to be reformed, and Hitler will be regarded as an Icon.Trust me.


Why would Hitler be seen as an icon? Hitler was friends with many Muslims & had Nazi Muslim armies fighting the allies.


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## milzy (Aug 9, 2010)

Papa Lazarou said:


> I have no probs with sharia law law to used to govern the relevant peoples who reside under it in the same way as in the UK we currently also allow Jewish law's to be used for the relevant peoples. Its been done since the 1850's for Jewish folk - what is the difference. There is no reason as far as I see why all 3 sets of laws cannot be allowed in the UK.
> 
> Sharia law does not have to govern most UK folk.


There's no reason why we can't have Judge Dread as the law then. Offenders will just pretend to be what ever religion would suit them best for the said crime fart knocker.


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## cub (Jul 14, 2011)

Hitler had more respect for Islam than Christianity. And of course they shared a common aim in anti-Semitism. Hitler said:

"Under the guidance of the Reich, Europe would speedily have become unified. Once the Jewish poison had been eradicated, unification would have

been an easy matter. France and Italy, each defeated in turn at an interval of a few months by the two Germanic Powers, would have been well out of it.

Both would have had to renounce their inappropriate aspirations to greatness. At the same time they would have had to renounce their pretensions in North Africa and the Near East; and that would have allowed Europe to pursue a bold policy of friendship towards Islam."

"Our Italian ally has been a source of embarrassment to us everywhere. It was this alliance, for instance, which prevented us from pursuing a revolutionary policy in North Africa. In the nature of things, this territory was becoming an Italian preserve and it was as such that the Duce laid claim to it. Had we been on our own, we could have emancipated the Moslem countries dominated by France; and that would have had enormous repercussions in the Near East, dominated by Britain, and in Egypt. But with our fortunes linked to those of the Italians, the pursuit of such a policy was not possible. *All Islam vibrated at the news of our victories.* The Egyptians, the Irakis and the whole of the Near East were all ready to rise in revolt. Just think what we could have done to help them, even to incite them, as would have been both our duty and in our own interest! But the presence of the Italians at our side paralysed us; it created a feeling of malaise among our Islamic friends, who inevitably saw in us accomplices, willing or unwilling, of their oppressors. For the Italians in these parts of the world are more bitterly hated, of course, than either the British or the French. The memories of the barbarous, reprisals taken against the Senussi are still vivid. Then again the ridiculous pretensions of the Duce to be regarded as The Sword of Islam evokes the same sneering chuckle now as it did before the war. This title, which is fitting for Mahomed and a great conqueror like Omar, Mussolini caused to be conferred on himself by a few wretched brutes whom he had either bribed or terrorized into doing so. We had a great chance of pursuing a splendid policy with regard to Islam. But we missed the bus, as we missed it on several other occasions, thanks to our loyalty to the Italian alliance! In this theatre of operations, then, the Italians prevented us from playing our best card, the emancipation of the French subjects and the raising of the standard of revolt in the countries oppressed by the British. Such a policy would have aroused the enthusiasm of the whole of Islam. It is a characteristic of the Moslem world, from the shores of the Atlantic to those of the Pacific, that what affects one, for good or for evil, affects all."

"You see, it's been our misfortune to have the wrong religion. Why didn't we have the religion of the Japanese, who regard sacrifice for the Fatherland as the highest good? The Mohammedan religion too would have been much more compatible to us than Christianity. Why did it have to be Christianity with its meekness and flabbiness?"--Alpert Speer, Inside the Third Reich (New York: Macmillan, 1970), p. 96.

See also Hitler's Muslim ally, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammad_Amin_al-Husseini


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## essexboy (Sep 7, 2008)

rjohal said:


> Where did you learn that?
> 
> Let me guess at the University of EDL/BNP.
> 
> ...


No Mate I didnt "learn" it anywhere.Its my opinion.If you understood, and had studied WW2 for 30 years, you too might be able to deduce the validity of that statement.Ive forgotten more about WW2 than you could ever learn, and guess what I dont need to google anything.You however, have an agenda.You are too preoccupied with defending Islam.All you can do is ask for verification of every statement made.Its your only defence.You cannot construct anything valid, so you either question the authenticity of whats posted, or more predictably use ad homien attacks.Classic diversion, for those with no defence.As I previously stated many posts ago, im done withn this thread.Please now feel free to launch another attack on me.


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## Conscript (Sep 5, 2010)

Milzeh said:


> There's no reason why we can't have Judge Dread as the law then. Offenders will just pretend to be what ever religion would suit them best for the said crime fart knocker.


WARRIOR!!!


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## cub (Jul 14, 2011)

rjohal said:


> cub I find it absurd that you mention anti semitism whereas judging by your posts you are advocating Islamophobia IMO.
> 
> Do you even know what the Mohammedan religion is?
> 
> ...


I find your constant whitewashing for Islam ridiculous, you continually make excuses for barbaric laws. And I find the constant trumpeting of the Indian Army during the war rather false: it numbered 2.5 million out of a population of 300 million. Hardly significant (less than 1 per cent).


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## MRSTRONG (Apr 18, 2009)

i think this thread and others like it have no place here , the only place for these type of convos is a religion based forum .

problem is things are not seen or read in a way they are meant = fall outs .

everybody is here to learn about muscle religion is not a muscle or is it affected by one .

bout time this thread got deleted .


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## essexboy (Sep 7, 2008)

rjohal said:


> If you bothered to read my post you have quoted thoroughly, you would see it is directed at Milzeh, who I have quoted.
> 
> If it was aimed at you I would have quoted you....
> 
> ...


I apologise for the misqoute.It was me who Made the original statement, I read it wrong.Im not hateful.Its a negative emotion which serves no purpose.As this is a forum for opinion,that is what your going to get.However,I can strengthen my opinion with known facts and logic.Im not attacking anybody.Its me whos been labelled, stupid, edl thug blah blah.

If you want to research something try this.Why did WW2 happen? There ya go get googling.Your last comment displays an astonishing amount of Naievity(sp) " peaceful solution for all" Its never been that way, and it never will be, when religion has such a strong influence on the "sheep" who inhabit this planet.


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## essexboy (Sep 7, 2008)

Milzeh said:


> Why would Hitler be seen as an icon? Hitler was friends with many Muslims & had Nazi Muslim armies fighting the allies.


read the WHOLE quote, the clue is in there.


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## Ironclad (Jun 23, 2009)

cub said:


> I find your constant whitewashing for Islam ridiculous, you continually make excuses for barbaric laws. And I find the constant trumpeting of the Indian Army during the war rather false: it numbered 2.5 million out of a population of 300 million. Hardly significant (less than 1 per cent).


I don't know if those numbers are accurate but it shouldn't matter. The Sikhs in the two world wars made up 20% of the Indian-Brit Army, but only make up a few % (1 or 2?) of Indians. So they are a ludicrously huge supporter.

They also have remarkable battle honours in WW2 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sikh#Sikhs_in_the_Indian_and_British_Armies

Personally I wouldn't fvck with them.. they are our friends and are remembered on the Memorial Gates and every other Commonwealth military graveyard across the globe.

(my ex was a Sikh, so I have a little background on these fellows)


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## cub (Jul 14, 2011)

I'm filled with hate lol I think you're filled with nonsense.

Population of India in 1921: 318 million http://censusindia.gov.in/Census_And_You/old_report/census_1921.html

Total of British Indian Army of 2.5 million in August 1945: Ian Sumner, The Indian Army 1914-1947 (London: Osprey, 2001), p. 25.


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## Singh01 (Jan 28, 2011)

rjohal said:


> Please show me where I have made excuses for barbaric laws.
> 
> It's clear it burns you every time I mention the British Indian Army as you don't like to discuss this as you are filled with hate.
> 
> ...


Dude why do you always have to bring indians into the conversation when muslims are spoken about? This whole topics about sharia law...


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## Singh01 (Jan 28, 2011)

rjohal said:


> If you bothered to read my post you have quoted thoroughly, you would see it is directed at Milzeh, who I have quoted.
> 
> If it was aimed at you I would have quoted you....
> 
> ...


BAN, this guy is so ****ing annoying


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## cub (Jul 14, 2011)

rjohal said:


> And you have a problem with Sharia law being practised by Muslims in the UK within the boundaries of UK law, but fail to highlight Beth Din (Jewish law) which has been practised by Jews in the UK for many years.
> 
> You want to talk about the Islamic terrorists who cause mayhem, but don't bat an eyelid when Zionists (Jewish extremists) perform acts of terror.
> 
> It's abundantly clear to me that you are the problem not the vast majority of the Muslim population.


Actually I have no problem with the British Jewish community because they're not setting off bombs or planning to. Whereas the Islamists have achieved this and many other plots have been discovered before they could carry them out. Your accusations of Islamophobia to anyone who dares suggest Islam is the not the much-vaunted "religion of peace" is desperate and just demonstrates the weakness of your position because you have to resort to name calling.

As I have said previously, it is an uncontestable fact that Israel has the most progressive, liberal and democratic laws in the Middle East. I wonder why!


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## Ironclad (Jun 23, 2009)

cub said:


> I'm filled with hate lol I think you're filled with nonsense.
> 
> Population of India in 1921: 318 million http://censusindia.gov.in/Census_And_You/old_report/census_1921.html
> 
> Total of British Indian Army of 2.5 million in August 1945: Ian Sumner, The Indian Army 1914-1947 (London: Osprey, 2001), p. 25.


If my figures are right though, out of 6 million Brits who fought in WW2... 2.5M is vast.

Bit off topic this Cub mate.


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## outlaw (May 4, 2009)

england are winning 1 nil fftopic:


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## essexboy (Sep 7, 2008)

Ironclad said:


> If my figures are right though, out of 6 million Brits who fought in WW2... 2.5M is vast.
> 
> Bit off topic this Cub mate.


There is no way that british troops in WW2, comprised that many Indians.


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## essexboy (Sep 7, 2008)

rjohal said:


> The vast majority of Muslims are not setting off bombs or planning to, but you don't wish to discuss that but rather highlight the opposite.
> 
> You want to talk about Israel's democracy but don't mention anything about the innocent Palestinians massacred by Zionists.
> 
> Blinded by hate IMO.


What has Palestine got to do with it? Any other conflicts you care to mention, to derail the topic?


----------



## cub (Jul 14, 2011)

Ironclad said:


> If my figures are right though, out of 6 million Brits who fought in WW2... 2.5M is vast.
> 
> Bit off topic this Cub mate.


It wasn't me who brought this subject up. Britain's population was about 44 million in 1931 (and would of been higher during the war) so Britain contributed a higher proportion of its population.


----------



## essexboy (Sep 7, 2008)

rjohal said:


> The vast majority of Muslims are not setting off bombs or planning to, but you don't wish to discuss that but rather highlight the opposite.
> 
> You want to talk about Israel's democracy but don't mention anything about the innocent Palestinians massacred by Zionists.
> 
> Blinded by hate IMO.


Well yeah.Bombing , Flying aeroplanes into buildings,etc is sort of what we are dicussing.Its the kind of thing that upsets some people, strangely enough.Sort of takes priority over those people that dont.


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## Papa Lazarou (Jul 4, 2007)

cub said:


> Actually I have no problem with the British Jewish community because they're not setting off bombs or planning to. Whereas the Islamists have achieved this and many other plots have been discovered before they could carry them out. Your accusations of Islamophobia to anyone who dares suggest Islam is the not the much-vaunted "religion of peace" is desperate and just demonstrates the weakness of your position because you have to resort to name calling.
> 
> As I have said previously, it is an uncontestable fact that Israel has the most progressive, liberal and democratic laws in the Middle East. I wonder why!


I presume you have a big objection to many Irish people? Since many have connections to the armed divisions of the relevant parts of Eire and Northern Ireland with all the violence and bombing of the mainland in that case?

IMO much of the hate for Muslims is they have a different skin tone. I've never seen as much hate for pasty Irish folk, or at least a few years.


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## cub (Jul 14, 2011)

rjohal said:


> The vast majority of Muslims are not setting off bombs or planning to, but you don't wish to discuss that but rather highlight the opposite.
> 
> You want to talk about Israel's democracy but don't mention anything about the innocent Palestinians massacred by Zionists.
> 
> Blinded by hate IMO.


I see you're ignoring my point and resorting to name calling again. I have given the evidence when you've asked me so in return I would like you to answer one question of mine: Why do you think Israel has the most liberal laws in the Middle East rjohal?


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## essexboy (Sep 7, 2008)

rjohal said:


> You question me when I mention Palestine, but when cub and others mention Israel, I don't see you asking "What's Israel got to do with it?"
> 
> Do you see a recurring pattern?


Cub merely used Israel as an example.You used Palestine to try and justify and deflect from who is actually doing the bombing.


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## cub (Jul 14, 2011)

rjohal said:


> You have ignored a whole host of questions I have directed at you.
> 
> You have not presented any credible evidence at all.


There's no point carrying this on. I have given reliable sources as you requested. You clearly cannot answer my question because the answer does not fit your ideology. If anyone is "blinded", it's you.


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## essexboy (Sep 7, 2008)

rjohal said:


> We're going round in circles now.
> 
> I accept there are Islamic extremists and condemn their actions. I also choose to speak out for those Muslims who abide by UK laws but are labelled unfairly. However people like yourself and cub choose to tar all Muslims with the same brush in order to fulfil your own insecurities and prejudices.


Didnt fancy answering my post about the war then, Couldnt google the answer?

When these law abiding Muslims, STAND UP AND CONDEMN the perpetrators of the carnage that has been caused,when they turn in radicals who they believe are potential terrorists,when they STOP members of their community burning poppys, burining embassies, killing journalists.Maybe then ill reconsider my opinion.


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## Ironclad (Jun 23, 2009)

cub said:


> It wasn't me who brought this subject up. Britain's population was about 44 million in 1931 (and would of been higher during the war) so Britain contributed a higher proportion of its population.


Well, it was our war Cub.

Essex.. the numbers are correct budski. Seriously.


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## BritishBeast (Jan 28, 2009)

There is so much wrong with whats being said.. All im going to say is that ive been to countries such as iran and indonesia many times in my short life and I have come to realise dispite these counties have people that are nice and friendly. This being said I have seen a pile up of bodies in indonesia all with their throats slit because they where christian and a church in Iran would not last a week before the people are killed... My point is that even in nice countries the men who respected by the muslim people are often men who have zero tolerance for other religions. So why be so tolerant to a religion which has no tolerance?


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## cub (Jul 14, 2011)

rjohal said:


> I accept Israel has the most liberal laws in the middle east.
> 
> What has that got to do with the problem you have with all Muslims?
> 
> You are diverting elsewhere in order to avoid highlighting your prejudices.


I didn't ask if Israel did or didn't: I asked why is this the case?

If you cannot see the connection then I feel quite sorry for you. Once again: out of all the countries in the Middle East the one with the most liberal laws is the only one that doesn't have a Muslim majority population. Why is this the case?


----------



## essexboy (Sep 7, 2008)

rjohal said:


> What an ignorant request.
> 
> This tells me you feel ALL Muslims are responsible for the atrocities and actions of some.


Ignorant? I merely asked a question.If you dont know the answer, its ok.Keep up with the diversion.


----------



## cub (Jul 14, 2011)

rjohal said:


> So you feel the need to hate all Muslims because the Islamic countries in the Middle East have laws which are strict in comparison to Israel.
> 
> Awful justification for hate.


This is a waste of time, you clearly cannot answer the question, just sling abuse.


----------



## essexboy (Sep 7, 2008)

Ironclad said:


> Well, it was our war Cub.
> 
> Essex.. the numbers are correct budski. Seriously.


Sorry Iron, I doubt that source.Ive met many veterans, none have ever mentioned serving with Indians.I know some did serve, but the numbers just dont crunch.


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## essexboy (Sep 7, 2008)

rjohal said:


> So you do feel ALL Muslims are responsible for the actions of some?


Answering a question with a question again? would you like me to tell you?

The actions of those who do nothing when they can, make them as guilty as the perpetrators.


----------



## cub (Jul 14, 2011)

rjohal said:


> Abuse, where?
> 
> You just can't accept you have serious insecurities and are the problem so feel the need to vent your frustration on others, in this case all Muslims


Saying I hate all Muslims, I'm Islamophobic, I have "insecurities" (are you a psychologist now?).

Like I said, it's a waste of time because you sidestep what is inconvenient to your argument. Despite repeatedly asking you why Israel has the most liberal laws in the Middle East, you cannot answer it because it destroys your argument.


----------



## cub (Jul 14, 2011)

rjohal said:


> How does Israel having lax laws in comparison to other middle eastern countries destroy my argument?
> 
> My argument is not to label all unfairly for the actions of some, which you seem intent on doing in this instance.


I'm not answering your question because I'm not going to sit here and keep answering yours when you cannot even answer just one of mine. It's remarkably that you still haven't answered it.


----------



## cub (Jul 14, 2011)

rjohal said:


> Go back and read my posts there are a whole host of questions which I have directed at you which you have chosen to ignore.
> 
> I have accepted Israel have more lax laws in comparison to other middle eastern countries.
> 
> You just continue diverting from the topic in hand as you cannot justify your prejudices which are evident to me.


QED.


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## essexboy (Sep 7, 2008)

rjohal said:


> Oh the irony in that post!


Sorry I cant see any irony.Are you sure you understand irony?


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## Ironclad (Jun 23, 2009)

essexboy said:


> Sorry Iron, I doubt that source.Ive met many veterans, none have ever mentioned serving with Indians.I know some did serve, but the numbers just dont crunch.


Towards the end of the war India was a strategic point because it was a shortish hop to Africa AND Japan waded into events for spoils as well. The pacific opened up as a theatre, it may have been this that motivated the Brit-India Army to "watch our backs" so to speak; it wasn't just in Europe that we need for manpower, the Axis was creeping around the rear.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/India_in_World_War_II

Read the 1st little bit of this link (3rd para). The Indians were effective in halting the Japanese, and her allies, advance.

Anyhoo. Time out. Threads getting tattered now.


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## mlouisea (Sep 6, 2011)

So I haven't really read the entire discussion, just the start of it. I've been living with a muslim family in Cairo for some time now, and what I think is the reason why many western people are against Islam is that they cannot tell the culture and the religion apart. Islam is indeed built on love, it teaches you to be a loving and respectful person. What many think when they hear of Islam is how women's rights are not being respected etc. But this is coming from the culture if countries where the majority of people are muslims, not from their religion. So when the media doesn't separate the two, the ones that have not read into the topic or lived it themselves become prejudiced. It's a shame!


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## Sub-Zero (May 2, 2011)

Mikazagreat said:


> Amazing how you liked and quoted my posts and my opinion are actually the complete opposit of yours.
> 
> You have the right to believe that the outcome of your reading is what you wrote here, but maybe it's just a big book you need more reading.
> 
> ...


I only quoted you as it was relevent to my opening paragraph.

We all know The Quran is a big book and I'm not a scholar or anything that can understand it all.

Quotes taken out of context can be used to however people want them to be, just like anything else. But as you know the Quran was revealed over a period of many years and verses were given at the time of suffering that the muslims were facing at that present time. So yes there are "hate" quotes but these were just to explain how the muslims should protect themselves at the time they were being persecuted, by pagan tribes. But like you i do not want get into an argument of quoting verses as i don't think it's right.I also don't see the need to show quotes on the "poor people being bombed" as killing innocent people is not allowed everyone knows that. I mean would 1/5th of the world population follow a religion that condone the killing of innocent civilians...?



Another misconception is the word "Jihad" which everyone thinks to mean "Holy war" but the word translated in arabic means "Struggle" and strive for Islam. This in simplest form could mean: A commitment to hard work" and "achieving one's goals in life". But in warfare it's used to defend an Islamic state from attacks against non-believers, but you already knew that.

Like i said I'm not a scholar or anything, so i will leave it at that.



LOL at this thread, it gone on a bit


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## Mr_Morocco (May 28, 2011)

rjohal i think you should just give up mate, ignorant people like essexboy arn't intelligent enough to have a proper discussion and accept all facts because they're so full of hate and believe all propaganda they read/see.

For those of you who hate the entire Muslim population because of the acts of a few, you really are stupid.

For those of you still talking about Sharia Law, it is already being used in Banks and Marriage for MUSLIM people only, it doesnt effect you in anyway much the same as Beth Din. If you have a problem with Sharia Law being used then you should also have a problem with Beth Din being used. This is the UK, if your born here your British no matter what religion you are, this country is all about freedom, if the goverment allow Muslims and Jews to use their own laws for specific things then theres no problem with that.

Think the thread should be locked now IMO as its just going around in circles.


----------



## Mikazagreat (Apr 10, 2009)

Sub-Zero said:


> I only quoted you as it was relevent to my opening paragraph.
> 
> We all know The Quran is a big book and I'm not a scholar or anything that can understand it all.
> 
> ...


Yes, People are ****en stupid (George Carlin)

No it's not just defensive, it's also offensive, Go conqure other none islamic countries, open it for islam, make whoever accept islam live there for free, and others pay Geziah "some fee to stay none muslim" << yes been done across history, and no one said that's over.

There is a huge storey called "El nasekh we el mansokh" that's already causing a huge debate between them themself, about quotes that completely says the opposit of other quotes, lots of those quotes"and that's the truth that moderate calling themself people won't say"

newer quotes erase the old quotes, or disable it.

I don't want to go into the quote debate, but my opinion and from enough researching, as the empire rise, the quotes went from peace and talk ppl into it, to war and force it by sword, until it reach this "fa eza enkadat el ashehor el horom ektolo el moshrekin aynama wagadtomohom"

"if the holy none war months have ended, KILL THE INFIDEL WHEREVER YOU FIND THEM"

Maybe you can get someone who kow arabic to read this for you

http://www.islamweb.net/newlibrary/display_book.php?flag=1&bk_no=49&ID=631

Note: I am not a hater, I have **** loads of muslim friends, i live around them, i debate with them all time, If they think violent people doesn't have a cause let it be, but i think they do.


----------



## Sub-Zero (May 2, 2011)

Mikazagreat said:


> Yes, People are ****en stupid (George Carlin)
> 
> No it's not just defensive, it's also offensive, Go conqure other none islamic countries, open it for islam, make whoever accept islam live there for free, and others pay Geziah "some fee to stay none muslim" << yes been done across history, and no one said that's over.
> 
> ...


Thats exactly my point regarding taking quotes out of context. Below is the full quote.

Then when the Sacred Months have passed, then kill the Mushrikûn wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and lie in wait for them in each and every ambush. But if they repent [by rejecting Shirk (polytheism) and accept Islamic Monotheism] and perform As-Salât (Iqâmat-as-Salât) , and give Zakât, then leave their way free. Verily, Allâh is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful}; [9:4-5].

Like i said in my earlier post these quotes were specifically for the pagan arabs who had broken there treatys with the muslim community at that specific time and were attacking them.

No mate, i don't think you're a hater and everyone is entitled to their opinion, but lets just leave the quotes out of it now.


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## Mikazagreat (Apr 10, 2009)

Sub-Zero said:


> Thats exactly my point regarding taking quotes out of context. Below is the full quote.
> 
> Then when the Sacred Months have passed, then kill the Mushrikûn wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and lie in wait for them in each and every ambush. But if they repent [by rejecting Shirk (polytheism) and accept Islamic Monotheism] and perform As-Salât (Iqâmat-as-Salât) , and give Zakât, then leave their way free. Verily, Allâh is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful}; [9:4-5].
> 
> ...


Seriously i don't want to go into that debate with you, but you need to read yourself, i think you take your knowledge from a friend 

I also found this nice site http://www.islamseed.com/index.php?s=quran&chapter_nb=9&verse_nb=5


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## Sub-Zero (May 2, 2011)

So you are saying the Quraish tribe didn't try to persecute the Muslims?

So Mushrekeen is sharing holyness of god, ands a shared holyness or making partners with Allah is "Shrik", which in itself is an ultimate sin. And the person is considered a "Kufr"...? Obviously seeing that you're from egypt your arabic knowledge is better than mine.

I don't take knowledge from a friend mate, but i will look at that link. :thumbup1:

Anyways this is going off topic from the thread, so i will leave it at that


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## Slight of hand (Sep 30, 2008)

This is a thread for people with invisible best friends...i think that's stupid enough.

George Bush says he talks to god everyday and Christians love him for it - if he said he spoke to god through a hairdryer everyday they would think he was mad...i fail to see how the addition of a hairdryer makes it any more absurd!


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## essexboy (Sep 7, 2008)

Afghan said:


> rjohal i think you should just give up mate, ignorant people like essexboy arn't intelligent enough to have a proper discussion and accept all facts because they're so full of hate and believe all propaganda they read/see.
> 
> For those of you who hate the entire Muslim population because of the acts of a few, you really are stupid.
> 
> ...


How is your invisible friend, and you have the nerve to question my intelligence?!


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## essexboy (Sep 7, 2008)

rjohal said:


> Judging by your posts in this thread you have no intelligence, but what's more hilarious is you believe you do:lol:


Right on time. Ad Homien at its finest.Go have a chat with the sky.Make it all better.Nite Nite.


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## 12 gauge (Jul 16, 2011)

cub said:


> Why do you think Israel has the most liberal laws in the Middle East rjohal?


Liberal Laws? They're not very liberal if you happen to be a Palestinian living in the largest open air prison on the planet i.e the Gaza strip.

The reality of the "liberal" state of Israel

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/media/sides.html

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/mohammed-dawwas-life-in-gaza-hungry-freezing-and-terrifying-1224475.html

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/life-inside-gaza-city-820139.html


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## Sub-Zero (May 2, 2011)

cub said:


> Saying I hate all Muslims, I'm Islamophobic, I have "insecurities" (are you a psychologist now?).
> 
> Like I said, it's a waste of time because you sidestep what is inconvenient to your argument. Despite repeatedly asking you why *Israel has the most liberal laws in the Middle East*, you cannot answer it because it destroys your argument.


Are you trying to imply that "Israel has the most liberal laws in the Middle East" because it's not a Muslim State..?

Do these "liberal laws" allow them to carry out and support injustice and deciet towrds Palestinians? Or do these "liberal laws" only apply if you're an Israeli national. If you so happen to be Palestinian those "liberal Laws" do not apply.

So what do you consider to be liberal laws..? destroying Palestinans homes..? Controlling people under Military law? Food sanctions? I could go on and on..

Maybe mine and your definition of liberal is different, or maybe your only concern is liberal laws regarding Homosexuality.? If so then you win this argument, but i consider the value of a Palestinian life a bit more important than progressive homosexuality laws.

I think you need to watch the following documentary and see how "liberal" Israel really is.

http://stagevu.com/video/oriusugqctby


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## Mikazagreat (Apr 10, 2009)

Sub-Zero said:


> Are you trying to imply that "Israel has the most liberal laws in the Middle East" because it's not a Muslim State..?
> 
> Do these "liberal laws" allow them to carry out and support injustice and deciet towrds Palestinians? Or do these "liberal laws" only apply if you're an Israeli national. If you so happen to be Palestinian those "liberal Laws" do not apply.
> 
> ...


This is one of the pretty ****ed up scenes of religion mate 

One side god told them that they have to rebuild their temple in the very same place to bring jesus.

Other side says god told them they are grandson of pigs and monkeys and have to be exterminated to the very last one.


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## BF200K (Jul 4, 2010)

cub said:


> There's no point carrying this on. I have given reliable sources as you requested. You clearly cannot answer my question because the answer does not fit your ideology. If anyone is "blinded", it's you.


You say you are a homosexual and yet you have such prejudice.

I honestly think that some of your misguided and uneducated views on Islam stem from knowing that what you personally choose to do is not approved of.

The way you disregarded the lives of the Indians who fought in the war was disgusting btw. Doubt you have half the bollox that these guys did.

Those who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.


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## cub (Jul 14, 2011)

BF200K said:


> You say you are a homosexual and yet you have such prejudice.
> 
> I honestly think that some of your misguided and uneducated views on Islam stem from knowing that what you personally choose to do is not approved of.
> 
> ...


You're the prejudiced one as you call homosexuality a choice, which demonstrates your ignorance.

As for Israel, it is a liberal democracy with universal suffrage, a judiciary that upholds the rule of law, a free press, universal education, free assembly. I don't deny they mistreat the Palestinians but if anyone for a second believes Hezbollah or Hamas want to set up a free society they are deluded. On every count Israel is miles ahead of its Muslim neighbours. Only someone who is "blinded by prejudice" can deny this fact. The only Muslim country that comes close is Turkey and that has a secular tradition of nearly a century: they deliberately separated religion and politics.


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## cub (Jul 14, 2011)

rjohal said:


> The more you post in this thread it becomes abundantly clear you choose to cast prejudice on the entire Muslim population, because you feel Israel has more lax laws in comparison to countries which are predominantly Muslim.


"Lax"? That's an interesting way to put it. Oh and by the way I don't "feel" that Israel has more tolerant laws: I know it. It is a fact.



rjohal said:


> I have accepted numerous times in this thread that Israel DO have lax laws in comparison to many Islamic countries, which is a positive thing.


Seriously, how more moronic can you get? I never asked you if you thought Israel had more tolerant laws: I asked you why was this the case. To be honest I think you are deliberately trolling now.

Also, Israel's laws are not more tolerant than "many" Islamic countries but every single one of them.


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## barsnack (Mar 12, 2011)

Zoinists should be burned to death


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## cub (Jul 14, 2011)

rjohal said:


> The definition of lax is not sufficiently strict or severe.
> 
> You know full and well I agree the laws in Israel are more tolerant, but you still choose to deflect once again and go round in circles.
> 
> Moronic, it's funny as this is the exact word used by my colleagues here to describe you who have just finished reading through this thread.


Obvious troll is obvious.


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

As someone who worked as a journalist, and reported and researched from within Israel, I would argue heavily that the press there is not at all free and would also argue strongly that whilst the government is technically democratic, public information is so heavily controlled that the ability of the voters to vote with informed descion making is largely non existant. Israeli democracy is a bit of a joke to be honest, as are the regular imprisonment, expulsions from the country and disappearances of anyone who speaks out about the system.

Isreal is no better than any other states in the middle east - it may be more westernised, but in terms of it being a liberal and free place that perception is largely smoke and mirrors.


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## barsnack (Mar 12, 2011)

didnt israel soldiers not shoot dead an itv reporter, his footage of him approaching them and being shot was on a programme i watched a while back


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

barsnack said:


> didnt israel soldiers not shoot dead an itv reporter, his footage of him approaching them and being shot was on a programme i watched a while back


Yep, James Miller.... I had met the guy briefly a few times, actually in the weeks before he was shot. I was expelled from Israel on that visit for witnessing the shooting of some Palestinian kids trying to take their pregnant mother to hospital during a curfew - my notes and camera were confuscated and I was shipped on the first plane out to Amsterdam. Both incidents were considered "too inflammatory" to be reported upon in the Israeli media - James Miller only got a mention when it hit the international press.


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## cub (Jul 14, 2011)

Interesting reading:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_the_Press_(report)#Middle_East_and_North_Africa

http://graphics.eiu.com/PDF/Democracy_Index_2010_web.pdf

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_in_the_World#Middle_East_and_North_Africa

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Asia#Western_Asia


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## Mr_Morocco (May 28, 2011)

Just saw this, sickening.

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/3802977/Iraqi-tortured-to-death-by-troops.ht

I could discuss the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan all day but thats a topic for another thread.


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## Sub-Zero (May 2, 2011)

barsnack said:


> didnt israel soldiers not shoot dead an itv reporter, his footage of him approaching them and being shot was on a programme i watched a while back


Most if not all atrocites committed by the Israeli's Army is hidden from the mainstream media. It's no wonder that most journalists reporting such crimes always end up dead or forced to leave.

Watch the documentary Occupation 101, it's an eye opener mate.


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## barsnack (Mar 12, 2011)

Sub-Zero said:


> Most if not all atrocites committed by the Israeli's Army is hidden from the mainstream media. It's no wonder that most journalists reporting such crimes always end up dead or forced to leave.
> 
> Watch the documentary Occupation 101, it's an eye opener mate.


cheers for the link, must get a wee watch of it, another documentary that was on recentyl was Louis Theroux on Ultra Zionists, http://www.disclose.tv/action/viewvideo/66784/Louis_Theroux_on_Ultra_Zionists_1_4/, showed there ignorance etc


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## Mr_Morocco (May 28, 2011)

Ill check those out when i get home, sound interesting. Also watch Zeitgeist 1 and 2, interesting stuff.

Isreal can do whatever they want because they know the U.S.A will never ever ever do anything to stop them. The blockade they have in place on Gaza is against all human rights laws, the UN even condemn it.


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## Sub-Zero (May 2, 2011)

Afghan said:


> Ill check those out when i get home, sound interesting. Also watch Zeitgeist 1 and 2, interesting stuff.
> 
> Isreal can do whatever they want because they know the U.S.A will never ever ever do anything to stop them. The blockade they have in place on Gaza is against all human rights laws, the UN even condemn it.


Israel's "liberal Laws:rolleyes:" have allowed them to break the most UN resolutions in the Middle East!

And yes the US will never do anything to them, seeing that powerful lobby groups such as AIPAC have control over most of the US congress.

Barsnack: Yeah I've seen that Loius Threoux Doc, a good watch.


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## BF200K (Jul 4, 2010)

cub said:


> You're the prejudiced one as you call homosexuality a choice, which demonstrates your ignorance.


Not at all bud. I read the research on the whole gay genetics thing when it came to light a few years ago. You did misinterpret that statement. Gay or not it is the person that *chooses* to act on those emotions and *choose* to which degree they display and interact in activities linked to it. If I am born with a naturally bad temper I can choose to go through life angry or learn to control those feelings. Not saying homosexuality is on par with that analogy but it's how I view the world.

Perhaps you need to travel/read more before you post. I have read all of your posts in this thread and can honestly say I don't think you know what you are talking about.

I mentioned your sexuality purely to implore you to see that you are behaving in this thread in a very similar way to how you must/may have been treated at some point due to being gay. Judging many on the actions of a few.

BTW I literally beg you to stop with the whole 'Israel is better than many other countries purely due to not being Islamic' argument.. It's boring, irrelevant and ridiculous..


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## cub (Jul 14, 2011)

BF200K said:


> Not at all bud. I read the research on the whole gay genetics thing when it came to light a few years ago. You did misinterpret that statement. Gay or not it is the person that *chooses* to act on those emotions and *choose* to which degree they display and interact in activities linked to it. If I am born with a naturally bad temper I can choose to go through life angry or learn to control those feelings. Not saying homosexuality is on par with that analogy but it's how I view the world.
> 
> Perhaps you need to travel/read more before you post. I have read all of your posts in this thread and can honestly say I don't think you know what you are talking about.
> 
> ...


So your advice to gay people in the Middle East is that homosexuality is a choice and basically you're bringing the punishment on yourself if you don't "control" your feelings (feelings which you have no choice)? Not only is that remarkably ignorant, you also show an alarming lack of comprehension of the subject you are talking about.

Also, by almost every political index Israel is comparably better than other Middle Eastern countries. It's relevant because I was demonstrating that political Islam is conducive to reactionary regimes, and showing the one liberal Middle Eastern country is the only non-Muslim one. I wouldn't want to live under Sharia.


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## 12 gauge (Jul 16, 2011)

The Zionist state of Israel is as oppressive toward Palestinian Christians as it is towards Palestinian Muslims.The Zionist settlers believe they have a god given right to occupy not only other peoples homes,land and properties but to enslave all non Jews as well.

Here are a few "liberal" Zionist settlers verbally attacking a Christian camera crew who were filming in the occupied territory.These people are given a free reign by the "liberal" Israeli government to do as they please with impunity.


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## BF200K (Jul 4, 2010)

cub said:


> So your advice to gay people in the Middle East is that homosexuality is a choice and basically you're bringing the punishment on yourself if you don't


I'm honest enough to say that I don't have enough knowledge as to the extent of homosexuality suppression in deep Islamic cultures to comment. The strict upbringing in Muslim households does seem to prevent outwardly gay behaviour. Whether this is a form of suppression or just that homosexuality is at least somewhat based on nurture as well as nature I could not say.



cub said:


> Not only is that remarkably ignorant, you also show an alarming lack of comprehension of the subject you are talking about.


In what respects? Don't just post stuff like this...expand and contribute, you may even be able to teach me something or lead me to thinking in a different light?

Ignorance is something you seem to be in high possession of. At least when I state my points (which I rarely do) I expand on what I'm trying to say in order to have an intelligent discussion and hopefully gain something from it. You just get defensive.

I don't like the idea that homosexuals cannot express themselves in many Islamic countries however, as harsh as it sounds, it was the hand they were dealt. If you really want to go deep, religious wise...Maybe it's their personal test from God? but that kind of stuff is too deep and not something I have thought over enough to want to comment on just yet.


----------



## 12 gauge (Jul 16, 2011)

cub said:


> Also, by almost every political index Israel is comparably better than other Middle Eastern countries. It's relevant because I was demonstrating that political Islam is conducive to reactionary regimes, and showing the one liberal Middle Eastern country is the only non-Muslim one. I wouldn't want to live under Sharia.


None of the countries in the middle east are actually ruled by a government which enforces sharia, yes Suadi Arabia likes to portray itself to Muslims as a nation which does but in reality it does not. A conservative view of sexuality is not restricted to Muslims alone many nations and societies are anti gay, so for you to attempt to lay blame at Muslims and sharia is disingenuous. Many orthodox Christians and Jews would view homosexuals with as much disdain as Muslims do.


----------



## cub (Jul 14, 2011)

BF200K said:


> I'm honest enough to say that I don't have enough knowledge as to the extent of homosexuality suppression in deep Islamic cultures to comment. The strict upbringing in Muslim households does seem to prevent outwardly gay behaviour. Whether this is a form of suppression or just that homosexuality is at least somewhat based on nurture as well as nature I could not say.


It is either genetic or something that is formed very young: either way sexuality is not something anyone, gay or straight, chooses. I've met gay men from Saudi Arabia who have told me what it is like there. Laws against homosexuality does not stop someone being a homosexual, otherwise Islamic societies would have no homosexuals (which obviously isn't the case). It just drives it underground.



BF200K said:


> Ignorance is something you seem to be in high possession of. At least when I state my points (which I rarely do) I expand on what I'm trying to say in order to have an intelligent discussion and hopefully gain something from it. You just get defensive.


I was told I was wrong to say that Israel was the most liberal country in the Middle East: I provided alot of evidence to back that up. I'm not sure how that is not "expanding on what I'm trying to say". It's just that some people cannot accept an inconvenient truth because it shows Islam in a bad light.



BF200K said:


> I don't like the idea that homosexuals cannot express themselves in many Islamic countries however, as harsh as it sounds, it was the hand they were dealt. If you really want to go deep, religious wise...Maybe it's their personal test from God? but that kind of stuff is too deep and not something I have thought over enough to want to comment on just yet.


Something they're dealt with? So those laws shouldn't be changed then? It sounds like you don't think it's a big deal, along with other civil liberty issues in Islamic countries.


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## cub (Jul 14, 2011)

12 gauge said:


> None of the countries in the middle east are actually ruled by a government which enforces sharia, yes Suadi Arabia likes to portray itself to Muslims as a nation which does but in reality it does not. A conservative view of sexuality is not restricted to Muslims alone many nations and societies are anti gay, so for you to attempt to lay blame at Muslims and sharia is disingenuous. Many orthodox Christians and Jews would view homosexuals with as much disdain as Muslims do.


Muslim-majority countries justify anti-homosexual laws on religious grounds. I don't know how you can deny this and then in the next sentence say a "conservative view of sexuality is not restricted to Muslims". Either the repressive laws are due to Islamic influence or they aren't: you can't have it both ways.

I have never claimed it is just Muslims who are homophobic but it is the case that traditionally Christian countries have legalised it (along with the only Jewish state), whilst the Muslim countries that have legalised it can be counted on one hand. Why is this the case? Why have Christian and Jewish societies moved away from repression and embraced legal tolerance yet Muslim countries haven't? It's because in Muslim countries the idea that the legal system and religion should be separate does not exist. Even governments that espouse Baathism have not liberated themselves from traditional religious prejudice on this issue.

What do you think would happen in Riyadh, Tehran, Amman, Dubai, etc. if they tried to hold a pride march? In Tel Aviv and Jerusalem they happen every year.


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## BF200K (Jul 4, 2010)

cub said:


> Something they're dealt with? So those laws shouldn't be changed then? It sounds like you don't think it's a big deal, along with other civil liberty issues in Islamic countries.


Thanks for the full reply.

Life will never be truly perfect for anybody. Everybody has their own individual problems.

It's not that I don't think it's a big deal, I just realised a long time ago that concern and hope are often wasted on things you cannot control. I've said I don't like it. But that really is the way the world works.

Changes will come, but it will take time. For now, disdain for countries that have not changed and are not like us is wasted energy.


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## barsnack (Mar 12, 2011)

Cub wouldnt it be easier if you were just straight


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## retro-mental (Dec 2, 2010)

I thought this was a thread about jude laws long lost asian relatives


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## cub (Jul 14, 2011)

barsnack said:


> Cub wouldnt it be easier if you were just straight


Yep (especially if I lived in the Middle East), that's not a choice open to me or to any gay person though.


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## 12 gauge (Jul 16, 2011)

cub said:


> Muslim-majority countries justify anti-homosexual laws on religious grounds. I don't know how you can deny this


I haven't denied that,my point is that Islam as a religion is not unique in that it views homosexuality as a sin that deserves punishment, Christianity and Judaism do not take kindly to homosexuality either.



cub said:


> and then in the next sentence say a "conservative view of sexuality is not restricted to Muslims". Either the repressive laws are due to Islamic influence or they aren't: you can't have it both ways.


Again, I don't think I've suggested that the anti Homosexuality laws implemented in Muslim countries are not taken from Islam but the point is that in those countries which the law making process is still influenced by Christianity you will also find laws against homosexuality.So why are Muslims and Islam singled out?



> I have never claimed it is just Muslims who are homophobic but it is the case that traditionally Christian countries have legalised it (along with the only Jewish state), whilst the Muslim countries that have legalised it can be counted on one hand.


Countries which used to be traditionally Christian but which are now secular have legalised it,but you'll find places where the influence of the church is strong still have societies in which homosexuality is not tolerated, the example of the mayor of Moscow referring to it as "SATANIC" clearly demonstrates that.The fact that he chose to use the term satanic is proof that his ant gay stance is based on Christian influence.



> Why is this the case? Why have Christian and Jewish societies moved away from repression and embraced legal tolerance yet Muslim countries haven't?


Go ask the mayor of Moscow, better still go to Christian Jamaica and you'll soon find people quoting the bible in order to justify their views against Homosexuality, so you see as a homosexual you have a problem with all religions and not just Islam, despite your attempts to portray it as something uniquely Islamic.



> It's because in Muslim countries the idea that the legal system and religion should be separate does not exist. Even governments that espouse Baathism have not liberated themselves from traditional religious prejudice on this issue.


Homosexuality is a crime in Muslim countries,it is also an abomination according to Christian teachings as well as Jewish teachings, you disagree with that, others do not.



> What do you think would happen in Riyadh, Tehran, Amman, Dubai, etc. if they tried to hold a pride march? In Tel Aviv and Jerusalem they happen every year.


What do you think would happen to you if you openly proclaimed your homosexuality is Christian Jamaica? Ever heard of Boom bye bye in a batty bwoy head?


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## Ironclad (Jun 23, 2009)

> Homosexuality is a crime in Muslim countries,it is also an abomination according to Christian teachings as well as Jewish teachings, you disagree with that, others do not.


Thank fvck we have secularism now.

Take the power to rule away from religion and those that peddle this nonsense and breathe the clean air.

Are we decadent? No, we are free.


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## 12 gauge (Jul 16, 2011)

Ironclad said:


> Take the power to rule away from religion


And give it to corrupt politicians? Free at last free at last.


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## Ironclad (Jun 23, 2009)

@ 12gauge: Sharia Law exonerates honour-killings "if they are found to have dishonoured their families". Even a corrupt secular politician wouldn't allow that.

I'll take my chances with the corrupt but eventually found-out, thanks


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## 12 gauge (Jul 16, 2011)

Ironclad said:


> @ 12gauge: Sharia Law exonerates honour-killings "if they are found to have dishonoured their families". Even a corrupt secular politician wouldn't allow that.


Ironclad, please explain and provide some kind of reference for your statement.


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## Ironclad (Jun 23, 2009)

Really? They are so prevalent I'd have thought it unnecessary.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honor_killing#Middle_East

Quote from the above: *Rana Husseini, a leading journalist on the topic* of honor killings, states that "under the existing law, people found guilty of committing honor killings often receive sentences as light as six months in prison"

Amnesty Int: "The regime of honor is unforgiving: women on whom suspicion has fallen are not given an opportunity to defend themselves, and family members have no socially acceptable alternative but to remove the stain on their honor by attacking the woman."

Link here: 4th paragraph onwards.

Want more?

See, while we keep hearing, "oh, it's just a few staining our rep".. it really isn't, it is common. It is a heavy patriarchal society we are merging with, and like the lion - they protect their gene-pool - murderously.

Very primitive people, very juvenile world-view.


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## 12 gauge (Jul 16, 2011)

Ironclad said:


> Really? They are so prevalent I'd have thought it unnecessary.


 I'm not asking you what an honour killing is, you said "Sharia Law exonerates honour killings," I'm asking you to prove that statement.You have failed to do so.Honour killings are committed by non Muslims as well as Muslims due to cultural influences,why do you point the finger at Islam for crimes committed by Muslims? Many honour killing are committed in India yet no one blames Hinduism or Sikhism for that and rightly so, but when it comes to crimes committed by Muslims everyone automatically blames Islam.



Ironclad said:


> See, while we keep hearing, "oh, it's just a few staining our rep".. it really isn't, it is common. It is a heavy patriarchal society we are merging with, and like the lion - they protect their gene-pool - murderously.
> 
> Very primitive people, very juvenile world-view.


If for arguments sake we accept that honour killings are common amongst Muslims that would still not prove your assertion that Sharia law exonerates it,as for what you have quoted regarding Jordanian law then 1) it does not exonerate honour killings like you falsely stated and 2) its not sharia anyway so why quote it? Jordan has many laws which are not in accordance with sharia law, in fact Jordanian prisons are full of people who have called for the implementation of Sharia law.


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

If I recall correctly, of the 35 or so nations which recognise and use sharia law, it's about seven or eight which practice it strictly and the rest taking various aspects of it but not going to its extremes.

Very lenient sentences for honour killings, and executions or extreme punnishments for blasphemy, are I think practised in about twelve countries. It's not so much a blanket muslim interpretation of sharia law, it's definitely national politics and local cultural attitudes which determine which aspects of it are followed in which country.


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## Ironclad (Jun 23, 2009)

I did not once use the word Muslim or Islam when referencing Sharia, in that statement or the 1st reply of mine you quoted.

Honour-killing of course pre-date Islam, granted, but it is prevalent amongst amongst this group more than others.

Jordan you say? Read article 340 of the Penal Code (Jordanian Law). Also, Article 98 of the Penal Code, "Article 98 stipulates that a reduced sentence is applied to a person who kills another person in a 'fit of fury'"

To reiterate. I am not blaming anyone, I am looking at the typical rulings of Sharia and it's practitioners.



> Many honour killing are committed in India yet no one blames Hinduism or Sikhism for that and rightly so, but when it comes to crimes committed by Muslims everyone automatically blames Islam.


I beg to differ.. Murderers are all murderers in my book. What grinds my gears is the legitimacy granted by prehistoric thinking. Some of it cultural, much of it cultural backed-up by the divine right to carry out these murders and get away with it, lightly too.

FYI north India has a higher incidence that the overly Hindu south (not that means much, a dead woman is a murder victim, whatever the religion). Need citation?


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## 12 gauge (Jul 16, 2011)

Ironclad said:


> I did not once use the word Muslim or Islam when referencing Sharia, in that statement or the 1st reply of mine you quoted.
> 
> Honour-killing of course pre-date Islam, granted, but it is prevalent amongst amongst this group more than others.
> 
> ...


Again you cant show anywhere that Sharia law itself "exonerates" honour killings.That was an incorrect statement on your part.Sharia Law does not advocate honour killings,but yes some Muslims do engage in the practice as do people from other religions and cultures.Nothing to do with Sharia law mate.

Anyway I'd like to look at why so many people are so wound up about Sharia law though? I mean there are many many things that happen in other parts of the world that people in Britain would strongly disagree with but do not feel as emotional about.Why is it that Sharia law is such an emotive subject? I mean this notion that it is somehow going to be forced upon Britain in the not too distant future is so ridiculous that I seriously think there is something mentally wrong with those individuals who actually do believe it, having said that I don't think that many of those who actually propagate such a crazy idea do in fact believe it themselves but rather it serves to promote an unwarranted fear and hatred of all things Islamic and causes British Muslims to be looked upon with much suspicion and that is why I believe the right wing are using this scaremongering tactic.It just disappoints and saddens me to see so many otherwise intelligent and rational people fall prey to this type of scaremongering.


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## Ironclad (Jun 23, 2009)

OK 12 gauge;

The title of the thread is Islam & Sharia Law. I, personally, am blaming nobody or pointing the finger at one group (we know it isn't just one group) we are investigating misconceptions (I find few though).

Here's a link to punishments under Sharia --> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharia#Penalties I *insist* you fully read that sub-section to the end, about seven paragraphs mate.

Then, read that wiki pages top of page intro. Specifically: "Sharia (law) is the code of conduct or religious law of Islam. *Most Muslims believe Sharia is derived from two primary sources* of Islamic law: the precepts set forth in the Qur'an, and the example set by the Islamic prophet Muhammad"

There are useful links under the punishments bit, above.

Again, I am not p!ssed off, blaming or finger pointing. I am aware this isn't 'the typical' action of most migrants. However, it is interesting reading and it is interesting to note the link between violence, getting away with it & the god-given right to perform murder.. under Sharia.

Not giving any more links tonight, just read up and see. Like I said, i'd rather side with the secular politician, even if they buy moats for ducks.


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## 12 gauge (Jul 16, 2011)

Ironclad said:


> Again, I am not p!ssed off, blaming or finger pointing. I am aware this isn't 'the typical' action of most migrants. However, it is interesting reading and it is interesting to note the link between violence, getting away with it & the god-given right to perform murder.. under Sharia.


God given right to perform murder? How in the world have you come to that conclusion based on the link you've posted?


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## Ironclad (Jun 23, 2009)

Where to you think the Koran comes from?

Have you read the link?

Do you know what Sharia IS or are you seeing through any points people here make as just inflammatory or personally attacking Muslims themselves?

I will not provide direct Koranic or Hadith links to help you, I have pointed them out already (punishments) and I don't want people here to get p!ssed off, we've done that before.


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## Ironclad (Jun 23, 2009)

I'm out.

Bedtime. zzz zz :sleeping:

peace on erf, all!!


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## Mr_Morocco (May 28, 2011)

If you think wikipedia is a credible source of information then it just proves your ignorance.


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## cub (Jul 14, 2011)

12 gauge said:


> I haven't denied that,my point is that Islam as a religion is not unique in that it views homosexuality as a sin that deserves punishment, Christianity and Judaism do not take kindly to homosexuality either.
> 
> Again, I don't think I've suggested that the anti Homosexuality laws implemented in Muslim countries are not taken from Islam but the point is that in those countries which the law making process is still influenced by Christianity you will also find laws against homosexuality.So why are Muslims and Islam singled out?
> 
> ...


Even the world's largest Christian church, the Catholic Church, does not advocate legal punishment for homosexuality, though they do frown upon it. The Church of England still has bishops in the House of Lords and although they are not at the forefront of adovcating gay rights, when was the last time one of them demanded that homosexuality should be punished by the law? Is Rowan Williams really comparable to Ayatollah Khamenei? I don't think Christianity and Islam are the same as you portray them. The evidence goes against it.

Islamic scholars (both Sunni and Shia) debate over how it should be punished, not over whether it should be punished or not. How many traditionally Christian countries have legalised it compared to Islamic countries? Even Italy where the Church is strong have legalised it for longer than Britain. So yes it is mainly a problem in Islamic countries rather than the majority of traditionally Christian societies which have legalised it. This so self-evidently true that I don't know how you can argue against it.


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## Ironclad (Jun 23, 2009)

Afghan said:


> If you think wikipedia is a credible source of information then it just proves your ignorance.


Afghan. Give it a rest, I can't exactly post you all a copy of my own books or papers now can I?

Fvcks sake.

Wikipedia is multi-peered, it does get corrupted (I am on the watch team myself and have fixed pages) but on the whole it is scripted and re-reviewed alot. If you think it contains errors then join the team and EDIT IT YOURSELF. Remember, if you insert deliberate errors (your own bias) it will be spotted.

Wikipedia is as fallible as anything else I can link to on the internet to help point things out. We are on the internet now, I have few other tools to use as it is all digital.


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## johnny_lee (Jun 15, 2011)

sometimes i feel like hunting this amjem chourdey and ****ers like that down and take the rats of the face of the planet


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## Ironclad (Jun 23, 2009)

Yes, frankly - religion will destroy us all.

None of it is peaceful, all of it is divisive, no one is the 'one true religion'. It is all founded on earlier religious writings. The so-called prophets fulfilled prophesy retroactively (esp J.C.). All of the middle eastern holy books are rehashed, their contents are of dubious origin and heavily edited.

No one is allowed to point out the doubtable nature of all the main characters of these religions (did they actually exist as we are told) for fear of upsetting the faithful, or worse, getting killed. Even though the truth is bloody obvious.

It's a fantasy. And it will kill us all if we are not careful. :thumbdown:


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

Ironclad said:


> Yes, frankly - religion will destroy us all.
> 
> None of it is peaceful, all of it is divisive, no one is the 'one true religion'. It is all founded on earlier religious writings. The so-called prophets fulfilled prophesy retroactively (esp J.C.). All of the middle eastern holy books are rehashed, their contents are of dubious origin and heavily edited.
> 
> ...


Nice post. Religion is more politics than spirituality and that's the problem. The constant rehashing (for political purposes) over the years of what started out as a genuine spiritual quest has got religion into a total mess... as soon as spiritual belief is given an organised structure that has figures of authrotity who 'speak for god', then the teachings become tainted by the political ideas of those leaders... and those political ideas become intertwined with the spiritual aspect of the religion and quickly overtake it.

Judasim, Christianity and Islam are all highly politicised versions of what they originally were. Is not to say that there aren't followers who aren't spiritual - there are many many who are, but the politicised element is the most vocal, active and usually influencial aspect of those religions.


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## Conscript (Sep 5, 2010)

Religion is big business, the Vatican for example - worth something ridiculous like 50 billion squid!!


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## Ironclad (Jun 23, 2009)

And the rest.


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## Mikazagreat (Apr 10, 2009)

Dtlv74 said:


> *Nice post. Religion is more politics than spirituality *and that's the problem. The constant rehashing (for political purposes) over the years of what started out as a genuine spiritual quest has got religion into a total mess... as soon as spiritual belief is given an organised structure that has figures of authrotity who 'speak for god', then the teachings become tainted by the political ideas of those leaders... and those political ideas become intertwined with the spiritual aspect of the religion and quickly overtake it.
> 
> Judasim, Christianity and Islam are all highly politicised versions of what they originally were. Is not to say that there aren't followers who aren't spiritual - there are many many who are, but the politicised element is the most vocal, active and usually influencial aspect of those religions.


Not even politics, it's be like me or die mother focker.


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