# Female clen and t3 cycle advice



## shadow4509 (Jan 27, 2010)

I did post this in the female section first but no replies.

A female friend of mine is currently running var at 15mg per day and results are going well.

She is now at 15% body fat and is looking to give the fat loss a bit of kick as things are slowing down a little.

I have suggested a clen + t3 cycle but I have zero experience of clen and T3 for males, let alone females, as I don't like stims.

Can any females or trainers of females offer some advice in this area please? I have been doing some reading on both compounds and have some knowledge but I would like to hear of personal experiences and results.


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## shadow4509 (Jan 27, 2010)

There is ALOT of varied information about clen and T3 cycles in general, not just for women.

A common theory for both is 2 weeks on 2 weeks off. Tapering up and down the clen dose but not neccessary with the T3?

So can anyone comment on this cycle below?

Day 1: Clen 40mcg / T3 50mcg

Day 2: Clen 40mcg / T3 50mcg

Day 3: Clen 60mcg / T3 50mcg

Day 4: Clen 60mcg / T3 50mcg

Day 5: Clen 80mcg / T3 50mcg

Day 6: Clen 80mcg / T3 50mcg

Day 7: Clen 100mcg / T3 50mcg

Day 8: Clen 100mcg / T3 75mcg

Day 9: Clen 120mcg / T3 75mcg

Day 10: Clen 120mcg / T3 75mcg

Day 11: Clen 100mcg / T3 75mcg

Day 12: Clen 80mcg / T3 75mcg

Day 13: Clen 60mcg / T3 75mcg

Day 14: Clen 40mcg / T3 75mg

2 weeks off Clen can use ECA (T5)

If sides too much when tapering up return to previous lower dose.

User 3-5g taurine per day to ease cramps


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## Pictor (Jan 10, 2011)

T3: I'd run T3 at 50mcg/day from start to finish no taper...

Take full T3 dose first thing on waking and don't eat for 30 mins!

Clen: Take 1 tab for 2 days, 2 tabs for 2 days 3 tabs for 2 days etc till you reach your tolerance level where shakes become too much then drop it back 1 tab and run at that for a total of 2 weeks then run 2 weeks on/off

Clen can be taken with or without food it doesn't matter!


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## Queenie (May 30, 2013)

75mcg for a woman? That's loads!!

I was told 25mcg max for my first cycle (which I never did lol)

Clen I run 5 on 3 off.


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## shadow4509 (Jan 27, 2010)

Big Ste said:


> T3: I'd run T3 at 50mcg/day from start to finish no taper...
> 
> Take full T3 dose first thing on waking and don't eat for 30 mins!
> 
> ...


Ok so the dosing for the clen is to find her ideal dosage, once found run 2 weeks from that point?


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## shadow4509 (Jan 27, 2010)

RXQueenie said:


> 75mcg for a woman? That's loads!!
> 
> I was told 25mcg max for my first cycle (which I never did lol)
> 
> Clen I run 5 on 3 off.


I was hoping a female would chirp in so thank you.

So the T3 keep at 50mcg per day start to finish or taper up from 25mcg? Does the T3 need to be cycle 2 on 2 off?


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## Queenie (May 30, 2013)

shadow4509 said:


> I was hoping a female would chirp in so thank you.
> 
> So the T3 keep at 50mcg per day start to finish or taper up from 25mcg? Does the T3 need to be cycle 2 on 2 off?


I'd say start at 12.5mcg and not go higher than 37.5mcg. can be run continously throughout diet but take note to taper down properly when coming off and continue to diet while thyroid recovers (doesn't take long)

2 on 2 off very outdated for clen. 5 on 3 off far superior due to less time off.


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## Bad Alan (Dec 30, 2010)

Big Ste said:


> T3: I'd run T3 at 50mcg/day from start to finish no taper...
> 
> Take full T3 dose first thing on waking and don't eat for 30 mins!
> 
> ...


Is this your preference with t3? I know some find it has an effect on its action/causing tiredness but from my experience using it and reading there is no issues taking with food.


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## Queenie (May 30, 2013)

MissMartinez said:


> Can I ask the reason behind 5 on 3 off?


sure! as above. more time on over a month period or whatever.


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## shadow4509 (Jan 27, 2010)

RXQueenie said:


> I'd say start at 12.5mcg and not go higher than 37.5mcg. can be run continously throughout diet but take note to taper down properly when coming off and continue to diet while thyroid recovers (doesn't take long)
> 
> 2 on 2 off very outdated for clen. 5 on 3 off far superior due to less time off.


Really appreciate this thank you.

So she should run the clen starting at 1 tab for 2 days and increase by every 2 days until side effects are too much, then reduce by 1 tab and stay at that dose?

I think the T3 we will cycle with her clen because 5 weeks is her timescale to be where she wants to be. So start it at 12.5mcg per day run for a week, then increase to 25mcg for a week, then 37.5mcg for a week and then taper back 25mcg for a week and back to 12.5mcg for a week before coming off?


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## Bad Alan (Dec 30, 2010)

MissMartinez said:


> You can run the clen for longer without it effectiveness downgrading if u run it with ketofin


Ketotifen works for desensitization, but I found it causes me to gain weight for some reason. They experimentally use it to stop weight loss in sick people. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. It's a TNF-a antagonist. TNF-a works for weight loss and it's action is against this. It's a naturally occurring cytokine.

Hit and miss and not really something is personally recommend.

I run 5 on 3 off with clen, I've run it many different ways. It's benefit is longer time on over a period of weeks and I have zero desensitisation issues (going by feel and results)


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## MRSTRONG (Apr 18, 2009)

Two days on two days for the T3 , guys would use 100-125mcg for this , not sure if same dose would be run for females @DiggyV would know .

The dosing of the clen means nothing until you find the point it works as no clen is the same , larger ****** clen tabs are not as good as the smaller ****** tabs , Bulgarian clen is better still lol and astralean I needed 3 tabs where as the small ****** clen I needed just one .


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## Pictor (Jan 10, 2011)

shadow4509 said:


> Ok so the dosing for the clen is to find her ideal dosage, once found run 2 weeks from that point?


I'd run it for a total of 2 weeks including finding tolerance level, then just pick up from there on the next run!


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## Queenie (May 30, 2013)

shadow4509 said:


> Really appreciate this thank you.
> 
> So she should run the clen starting at 1 tab for 2 days and increase by every 2 days until side effects are too much, then reduce by 1 tab and stay at that dose?
> 
> I think the T3 we will cycle with her clen because 5 weeks is her timescale to be where she wants to be. So start it at 12.5mcg per day run for a week, then increase to 25mcg for a week, then 37.5mcg for a week and then taper back 25mcg for a week and back to 12.5mcg for a week before coming off?


t3 taper to 37.5mcg, keep until where she wants to be, then taper off when finished dieting (but still keeping diet tight)

clen protocol fine


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## Pictor (Jan 10, 2011)

Bad Alan said:


> Is this your preference with t3? I know some find it has an effect on its action/causing tiredness but from my experience using it and reading there is no issues taking with food.


I've always had good results running T3 that way, I tried the 2 days on/off measuring body temp but was a lot of messing about and I found it wasn't as effective! I've never tried taking with food as everything I've read about T3 used for weight loss says take away from food?!


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## Bad Alan (Dec 30, 2010)

Big Ste said:


> I've always had good results running T3 that way, I tried the 2 days on/off measuring body temp but was a lot of messing about and I found it wasn't as effective! I've never tried taking with food as everything I've read about T3 used for weight loss says take away from food?!


I don't disagree with the t3 use I run mine at a steady dose throughout diet with no issues aswell, I have seen no issue personally or any paper that states t3 cannot be taken with food. At higher doses I do tend to split my dose am/pm as all in one hit has me very lethargic and tired. Shouldn't be an issue at the doses stated in here though!


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## Pictor (Jan 10, 2011)

Bad Alan said:


> I don't disagree with the t3 use I run mine at a steady dose throughout diet with no issues aswell, I have seen no issue personally or any paper that states t3 cannot be taken with food. At higher doses I do tend to split my dose am/pm as all in one hit has me very lethargic and tired. Shouldn't be an issue at the doses stated in here though!


I think it was Mars that posted the study about keeping it away from food for weight loss, apparently the best results were seen by taking full dose on waking and leaving 30 mins before eating. This is how I've always ran it apart from the one time I tried 2 days on/off due to advice off Ausbuilt

So can't really comment on other protocols as I've never tried them


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## Bad Alan (Dec 30, 2010)

MissMartinez said:


> But why would you be able to run it longer?
> 
> The half life is 36 hrs so you wouldn't get a break for 3 days. Say u were in 120mcg after the 3 days u would still gave 30mcg in your system. Clen's benefits only last a limited time because of beta receptor down regulation so I don't see how the 3 day off period would benefit. Taking temperature and seeing it drop when it's effectiveness lessened may be a better protocol.


5 on 3 off works, I and countless others feel no desensitisation from use this way and have run it through prep no issues.

The ifbb pro who runs our gym has his guys on 5 on 2 off through prep, care to go tell him his protocol is ineffective?

Have you tried 2 weeks on 2 off? Results? Have you tried 5 days on 3 off? Results? Have you used ketotifen as you recommended to another user?


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## Bad Alan (Dec 30, 2010)

MissMartinez said:


> I've used 2 on 2 off and used it for longer with Benadryl over a yr ago yes.
> 
> I just never had heard of 5 on 3 off and was interested as to the science behind it in order to understand the logic behind it. I wasn't challenging or discrediting it, purely wanted to understand something rather than take something purely as given.
> 
> Apologies if you thought it came across that way, I thought their night be some explanation as to why is was more effective to be run in that fashion....


There is a reason for 5 on 3 off - more time on clen without desensitisation issues, when run with t3 this will do more for keeping receptors open so continued use of clen is effective.-

IMO Benadryl is not proven to work for beta receptor down regulation. The theory is that receptors are embedded in the cell´s outer phospholipid membrane. The stability of the membrane has a lot to do with the proper function of the receptors. Methylation of the phospholipids is stimulated by the binding of beta agonists (Clenbuterol) to their receptors. Methylated phospholipids are foreign to the body, and when the body recognizes them as foreign, it breaks them down with phospholipase A2. This changes the structure of the outer membrane which results in desensitization of the beta receptors. So agents that inhibit phospholipase A2 slow desensitization.

Benadryl theory is that it slows desensitization of Beta receptors (i.e. Upgrades them) by inhibiting phospholipase A2, which is the enzyme that breaks down methylated phospholipids.

I have used Benadryl and ketotifen, Benadryl isn't effective from my experience for upgrading beta receptors and I mentioned earlier the problems with ketotifen. Ketotifen is proven study wise to upgrade beta receptors though and Benadryl is mostly bro science at best.

A better option is the use of a small amount of t3 to keep receptors open, in turn the clen will fight the catabolic effect of t3. However the use of aas even in small amounts is highly recommended when using t3, the synergy between these three will be where best results are found.


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## MRSTRONG (Apr 18, 2009)

Bad Alan said:


> There is a reason for 5 on 3 off - more time on clen without desensitisation issues, when run with t3 this will do more for keeping receptors open so continued use of clen is effective.-
> 
> IMO Benadryl is not proven to work for beta receptor down regulation. The theory is that receptors are embedded in the cell´s outer phospholipid membrane. The stability of the membrane has a lot to do with the proper function of the receptors. Methylation of the phospholipids is stimulated by the binding of beta agonists (Clenbuterol) to their receptors. Methylated phospholipids are foreign to the body, and when the body recognizes them as foreign, it breaks them down with phospholipase A2. This changes the structure of the outer membrane which results in desensitization of the beta receptors. So agents that inhibit phospholipase A2 slow desensitization.
> 
> ...


Nice copy and paste 

http://forums.rxmuscle.com/archive/index.php/t-1049.html

*Taylor b* ...

benadryl in conjunction with clen, there is no scientific proof it works, that i have seen, but i do know with clen & ketotifen there is solid proof it keeps receptors upgraded. if some does have scientific proof benadryl keeps receptors upgraded while on clen, i would like to see this. thanks in advance.

Benadryl is sold as an anti-histimine in the United States, and/or a sleep aid elsewhere in the world. However, Beta receptors are embedded in the cell's outer phospholipid membrane. The stability of the membrane has a lot to do with the proper function of the receptors. Methylation of the phospholipids is stimulated by the binding of beta agonists to their receptors. Methylated phospholipids are foreign to the body, and when the body recognizes them as foreign, it breaks them down with phospholipase A2. This changes the structure of the outer membrane which results in desensitizaton of the beta receptors. On the other hand, agents that inhibit phospholipase A2 slow desensitization.

Cationic ampiphylic drugs are known for their ability to inhibit phospholipase A2. Benadryl (diphenhydramine) is a cationic ampiphylic drug.

*Ergo, Benadryl slows desensitization of Beta receptors (i.e. Upgrades them) by inhibiting phospholipase A2, which is the enzyme that breaks down methylated phospholipids, and this action in turn keeps the phospholipid membrane stable, and thus keeps the receptors functioning properly. *

*
*

Reference:

Prog Clin Biol Res. 1981;63:383-8.

Phospholipid methylation: a possible mechanism of signal transduction across biomembranes.

Hirata F, Tallman JF, Henneberry RC, Mallorga P, Strittmatter WJ, Axelrod J"


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## Bad Alan (Dec 30, 2010)

ewen said:


> Nice copy and paste
> 
> http://forums.rxmuscle.com/archive/index.php/t-1049.html
> 
> ...


The middle two paragraphs are an extract or summary of that research paper yes, was there an insinuation anywhere that it wasn't?

My experience of use of the products and protocol is still a valid point?

Unsure of your reasoning behind this post.......


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## Bad Alan (Dec 30, 2010)

MissMartinez said:


> Hey,
> 
> What i was really trying to understand was how the Beta receptors can not down regulate on the 5 on 3 off approach as on the days off there is still a good amount of clen still in the system given the half life? I just dont get how it could be run for a substantiall longer period on that protocol.
> 
> ...


Seeing how @ewen has a problem with summarising studies and drug profiles I will link you to this for further reading on t3 and beta receptors;

http://m.genome.cshlp.org/content/12/2/281.full

Use of t3 has been shown to up regulate the beta receptors in fat tissue.


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## MRSTRONG (Apr 18, 2009)

Bad Alan said:


> The middle two paragraphs are an extract or summary of that research paper yes, was there an insinuation anywhere that it wasn't?
> 
> My experience of use of the products and protocol is still a valid point?
> 
> Unsure of your reasoning behind this post.......


simple .

you say 5 on 3 off then say when questioned `tell that to the ifbb pro` then you copy and paste without crediting the author .

just seemed you were getting ar5y with @MissMartinez when all she was doing was trying to understand the MOA of how you run clen and why that protocol .


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## Bad Alan (Dec 30, 2010)

ewen said:


> simple .
> 
> you say 5 on 3 off then say when questioned `tell that to the ifbb pro` then you copy and paste without crediting the author .
> 
> just seemed you were getting ar5y with @MissMartinez when all she was doing was trying to understand the MOA of how you run clen and why that protocol .


Because it wasn't a direct extract from the paper?

As you know there is a lot to be said for application over science in a lot of cases. The protocol and reasoning has been fully explained, I still fail to see the need for your involvement in the matter as it has helped in no way whatsoever apart from to derail the thread a little with petty argument?


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## Bad Alan (Dec 30, 2010)

MissMartinez said:


> Thank you, thats the kinda stuff im looking for
> 
> Now im just trying to grasp the 5 on 3 off protocol!


Maybe it's effectiveness lies in the synergistic use with t3, which would be a directly applicable way to run clen given the circumstances and use of drugs mentioned in the OP.

T3 has been shown to up regulate beta receptors in fat tissue, the person above is using t3, 5 on 3 off allows more days on clen than 2 on 2 off over a 4 week period. Surely that can only be a good thing?

(I'm discounting the use of Benadryl and it's ability to up regulate beta receptors as I see no factual evidence of its effectiveness for this circumstance)


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## MRSTRONG (Apr 18, 2009)

Bad Alan said:


> Because it wasn't a direct extract from the paper?
> 
> As you know there is a lot to be said for application over science in a lot of cases. The protocol and reasoning has been fully explained, I still fail to see the need for your involvement in the matter as it has helped in no way whatsoever apart from to derail the thread a little with petty argument?


it`s called a debate surely even i am allowed to debate this kinda stuff , if i wanted to argue i would be very direct and do so .

i have my reasons (which i wont be sharing with you) for wanting to increase my knowledge and yes application over science is something i think is more applicable in the lifting world or atleast with regards to PEDS and lifting , but if all you are going to do is fob myself and others off with snippets from other conversations (and not even answering the question/s asked) then i wont be listening to you and will read posts from paul , diggy , el-torro and other more knowledgeable members .

however up until you said the classic `tell that to the ifbb pro` line i was taking what you said as scientific/biological fact .


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## Bad Alan (Dec 30, 2010)

ewen said:


> it`s called a debate surely even i am allowed to debate this kinda stuff , if i wanted to argue i would be very direct and do so .
> 
> i have my reasons (which i wont be sharing with you) for wanting to increase my knowledge and yes application over science is something i think is more applicable in the lifting world or atleast with regards to PEDS and lifting , but if all you are going to do is fob myself and others off with snippets from other conversations (and not even answering the question/s asked) then i wont be listening to you and will read posts from paul , diggy , el-torro and other more knowledgeable members .
> 
> however up until you said the classic `tell that to the ifbb pro` line i was taking what you said as scientific/biological fact .


You haven't come in to debate from what I've seen, only to stir an argument. Yet again.

Where and what question has been fobbed off? I believe an exchange of decent information has been had and there is a thread that other members can learn from? Are you reading all posts? All questions answered thus far.....oh apart from the reason behind your "white knighting" I believe a few used to call it.

So being that youve just mentioned application > science applies sometimes in the lifting world - how does the posting of a well respected ifbb pros protocol with no scientific evidence not count in this instance?

If you go back and READ I don't actually believe in running it the same way as said pro, his was another suggested protocol.


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## Bad Alan (Dec 30, 2010)

MissMartinez said:


> Because as with the proposed Benadryl addition downregulation still occurs at some point but I've found no issue running clen for 10 weeks on said protocol.


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## MRSTRONG (Apr 18, 2009)

Bad Alan said:


> You haven't come in to debate from what I've seen, only to stir an argument. Yet again.
> 
> Where and what question has been fobbed off? I believe an exchange of decent information has been had and there is a thread that other members can learn from? Are you reading all posts? All questions answered thus far.....oh apart from the reason behind your "white knighting" I believe a few used to call it.
> 
> ...


william , mine is bigger im bowing out .

if a debate can not be had without `point scoring` then i have 0 interest .

yesterday in a post i made i gave you credit for being one of the more knowledgeable members here .

please do not quote me in this thread anymore.


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## Bad Alan (Dec 30, 2010)

MissMartinez said:


> To be fair you hadnt explained the logic behing your protocol until later in the thread. And it was the blunt disregarding of my question with an ifbb pro talk that made you come across initially in a bad light, when all i wanted to do was gain some useful info.
> 
> But not all ifbb pros know why they do things, numerous ones rely on and hire prep coaches just to tell them what to do without wanting to know why. Im sure your one does tho, it seems much more common practice in the states


Does a conversation not go from making a point and then discussing this point? That's how information comes out, it would be impossible to predict all the questions that have occurred within this thread to answer and explain them all fully beforehand.

The ifbb pro comment is an example of application > theory. I apologise if you found this dismissive of your question, however everything you asked was still discussed. It's a learning game for every single one of us. I agree they don't always know the reasons or make good coaches, but as said bb, pl, strongman etc is more than just application of sciences sometimes. There may not always be a reason behind a given persons protocol other than they've experienced and seen it work.

I've given the reasons behind my advice and protocol fully. You still advocate Benadryl as a beta receptor up regulator, can I see research showing this please so I may further my own knowledge? You also recommend ketotifen and I'd like to hear your experience and results with this drug to be advocating its use so easily?

I have no issue with a debate and exchange of information unlike Ewen seems to think, I have issue with people coming into an argument for no reason other than to stir a situation and offer no contribution to the thread or debate in action. No suprise sometimes with a lot of the pettiness that comes from certain people on the board regularly. It is these people that usually stop a lot of good posters from contributing in threads, most seem to just want to cause an argument.


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## shadow4509 (Jan 27, 2010)

Ok so I got my friend Alpha Pharma Clen and T3

She is on day 3 and has been using

20mcg Clen and 12.5mcg T3 per day. The clen should have gone up to 40mcg today but I told her not too as she is struggling on 20mcg.

She is getting the shakes but also some nervousness/confusion and once worn off she is completely drained. Have just checked in with her this morning and she is feeling completely worn out.

She is currently running keto diet and on 15mg var per day and at 15% BF.

I'm wondering whether we need to drop keto and introduce some carbs or remain at this dose and wait for sides to pass/tolerance to build, or drop to 10mcg per day of clen.

Advice welcome.

Cheers


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## engllishboy (Nov 1, 2007)

MissMartinez said:


> Hey,
> 
> What i was really trying to understand was how the Beta receptors can not down regulate on the 5 on 3 off approach as on the days off there is still a good amount of clen still in the system given the half life? I just dont get how it could be run for a substantiall longer period on that protocol.
> 
> ...


Same way blast and cruise steroid cycles work presumably...


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## Queenie (May 30, 2013)

shadow4509 said:


> Ok so I got my friend Alpha Pharma Clen and T3
> 
> She is on day 3 and has been using
> 
> ...


How long has she been on keto for? When was last refeed?

I know I feel tired all of the time on a cal deficit - it IS a diet afterall, but I still manage to train and do cardio - I just collapse at the end of the day 

None of the stuff she's on would make her feel drained as far as I'm aware


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## shadow4509 (Jan 27, 2010)

RXQueenie said:


> How long has she been on keto for? When was last refeed?
> 
> I know I feel tired all of the time on a cal deficit - it IS a diet afterall, but I still manage to train and do cardio - I just collapse at the end of the day
> 
> None of the stuff she's on would make her feel drained as far as I'm aware


She is on week 4 now, last saturday was refeed and will be due again tomorrow. Which is another reason for feeling how she does.

I'm training with her at 4pm today so will see how she is then.

I know she should steer clear of other stims at the moment but can she get away with a pre workout?


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## Queenie (May 30, 2013)

shadow4509 said:


> She is on week 4 now, last saturday was refeed and will be due again tomorrow. Which is another reason for feeling how she does.
> 
> I'm training with her at 4pm today so will see how she is then.
> 
> I know she should steer clear of other stims at the moment but can she get away with a pre workout?


Yeah of course, chuck a pre wo in lol. I'm a massive fan of stims


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## shadow4509 (Jan 27, 2010)

RXQueenie said:


> Yeah of course, chuck a pre wo in lol. I'm a massive fan of stims


was more concerned of kicking her out of keto lol


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## Queenie (May 30, 2013)

shadow4509 said:


> was more concerned of kicking her out of keto lol


Will she be on just incidental carbs?

My current pre wo is 9g carbs per serving. I'm not a pre wo expert though so unsure if u can find any with less?

Could try caffeine tabs?


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## shadow4509 (Jan 27, 2010)

RXQueenie said:


> Will she be on just incidental carbs?
> 
> My current pre wo is 9g carbs per serving. I'm not a pre wo expert though so unsure if u can find any with less?
> 
> Could try caffeine tabs?


Yes mainly although I have included some simple sugars in PWO shake. But still coming in under 50g carbs per day so seems to be ok. I have some gaspari superdrive here and they are only 6g servings (1 scoop) so think we will be ok.

thanks for your help - again!


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