# Switching between IIFYM and keto necessary to get sub 10% bf?



## steelicarus (Jul 24, 2011)

Hey - would really like your opinion on this. Am three weeks into this IIFYM approach in a bid to get from 16%bf to sub 10%. I've initially sketched out 16 weeks, recalculating my macros as I go along. That being said there's so much info out there and people that swear by keto I'm wondering if both are as effective or not to get to the goal? Do I need to switch between the two or stay the course?

Thanks guys


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## Info Junkie (Nov 22, 2013)

You do not need to switch


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## iamyou (Oct 29, 2012)

Everything works. I personally never liked low carb diets and never needed them to get lean. I also take a s**t ton of tren though lol.


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## steelicarus (Jul 24, 2011)

> Everything works. I personally never liked low carb diets and never needed them to get lean. I also take a s**t ton of tren though lol.


Cheers man. You reckon its unobtainable without tren?


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## iamyou (Oct 29, 2012)

steelicarus said:


> Cheers man. You reckon its unobtainable without tren?


No, absolutely not. You can definitely get shredded natty. I did. I liked to use intermittent fasting along with supps like eca and yohimbine. That along with counting calories worked really well.


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## steelicarus (Jul 24, 2011)

> No, absolutely not. You can definitely get shredded natty. I did. I liked to use intermittent fasting along with supps like eca and yohimbine. That along with counting calories worked really well.


That's incredibly reassuring to know, thanks man


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## Dark sim (May 18, 2013)

iamyou said:


> No, absolutely not. You can definitely get shredded natty. I did. I liked to use intermittent fasting along with supps like *eca and yohimbine*. That along with counting calories worked really well.


Not natty then lol



steelicarus said:


> Hey - would really like your opinion on this. Am three weeks into this IIFYM approach in a bid to get from 16%bf to sub 10%. I've initially sketched out 16 weeks, recalculating my macros as I go along. That being said there's so much info out there and people that swear by keto I'm wondering if both are as effective or not to get to the goal? Do I need to switch between the two or stay the course?
> 
> Thanks guys


Depends what your idea of iifym is?


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## steelicarus (Jul 24, 2011)

> Not natty then lol
> 
> Depends what your idea of iifym is?


I'm eating relatively clean without going to the extreme of keto/paleo/restrictiveness I guess.


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## Dark sim (May 18, 2013)

steelicarus said:


> I'm eating relatively clean without going to the extreme of keto/paleo/restrictiveness I guess.


If you use iifym as it was intended then you can get sub 10%. All diets to get to sub 10% are restrictive.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

An old discussion that may be of interest, including a number of people saying they got stage lean without using a keto diet:

https://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/topic/184539-poll-do-you-have-to-keto-to-get-shredded/?do=embed


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## steelicarus (Jul 24, 2011)

just had a look now, eca looks like it has some significant side effects but the studies on yohimbine are actually really positive! Thanks again man

link to study

Thanks for the link ultrasonic, will give that a read now.


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## BoomTime (Feb 19, 2009)

steelicarus said:


> Hey - would really like your opinion on this. Am three weeks into this IIFYM approach in a bid to get from 16%bf to sub 10%. I've initially sketched out 16 weeks, recalculating my macros as I go along. That being said there's so much info out there and people that swear by keto I'm wondering if both are as effective or not to get to the goal? Do I need to switch between the two or stay the course?
> 
> Thanks guys


Have you considered clen? I find I react massively well to it, 2 weeks on 2 off at 80mcg for me from 13%-10% in 2 weeks with keto diet (100g carbs) and only 1 hiit session a day. It also gets harder to loose fat the lower the percentage gets.


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## freddee (Mar 2, 2009)

Personally I need to restrict my carbs to loose weight and lean up, I would not go keto natural though, I have leaned up well on 3200 cals a day, aprox, I think, iifym is a cop out, it was not intended to be but is misinterpreted by individuals who havnt got the discipline to keep to a good clean diet, i'm not having 6 rounds of bread equals 36 grams of protein as some would like to think or that pizza fits my macro, that's a cheat meal in my book, but that's just my opinion.

I don't count the human body in thermo dynamics, we are biological too, we have hormones that control the body and its actions on producing energy and also hormones that tell us we are full and to stop eating, we can manipulate these or abuse these to great effect.


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## Big ape (May 5, 2011)

> Personally I need to restrict my carbs to loose weight and lean up, I would not go keto natural though, I have leaned up well on 3200 cals a day, aprox, I think, iifym is a cop out, it was not intended to be but is misinterpreted by individuals who havnt got the discipline to keep to a good clean diet, i'm not having 6 rounds of bread equals 36 grams of protein as some would like to think or that pizza fits my macro, that's a cheat meal in my book, but that's just my opinion.
> 
> I don't count the human body in thermo dynamics, we are biological too, we have hormones that control the body and its actions on producing energy and also hormones that tell us we are full and to stop eating, we can manipulate these or abuse these to great effect.


its not a cheat if it fits


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## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

Dark sim said:


> If you use iifym as it was intended then you can get sub 10%. All diets to get to sub 10% are restrictive.


Deficit,that is all. Regardless of diet type


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

> Deficit,that is all. Regardless of diet type


Not entirely. Or rather what you eat has the potential to affect the size of the deficit for the same calorie intake by e.g. having different effects on leptin (sugar vs starch). Not something a typical fat dieter should worry about at all, but we're talking 10% here.


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## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

Ultrasonic said:


> Not entirely. Or rather what you eat has the potential to affect the size of the deficit for the same calorie intake by e.g. having different effects on leptin (sugar vs starch). Not something a typical fat dieter should worry about at all, but we're talking 10% here.


So you don't need to be in a deficit?


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

> So you don't need to be in a deficit?


You absolutely do, and the size of the deficit is what determines fat loss. BUT the point I was making is that what you eat has the potential to affect the size of the deficit for the same calorie intake. Deficit = calories in - calories out, but what you eat can affect the calories out part. By altering the metabolic rate for the example I gave above. Another example would be differences in the thermic effect of food for different macro splits.


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## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

Ultrasonic said:


> You absolutely do, and the size of the deficit is what determines fat loss. BUT the point I was making is that what you eat has the potential to affect the size of the deficit for the same calorie intake. Deficit = calories in - calories out, but what you eat can affect the calories out part. By altering the metabolic rate for the example I gave above. Another example would be differences in the thermic effect of food for different macro splits.


Overcomplicated for me lol. I eat in a deficit...I lose weight lol


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## Dark sim (May 18, 2013)

FelonE said:


> Deficit,that is all. Regardless of diet type


True but body composition will be determined by macro split


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

> Overcomplicated for me lol. I eat in a deficit...I lose weight lol


Of course, and eating less/moving more is the most important factor my a huge margin! It's just not absolutely the only factor.


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## steelicarus (Jul 24, 2011)

hey guys, wow this blew up, really appreciate y'all taking the time to leave a reply so thanks!

Not considered clen because...well...I'm a bit of a p*ssy and I don't think i'd have the balls to go down the 'assisted' route just for the fact I don't know enough about it and some of the horror stories have been a bit scary.

So that's why I'm trying to do it via diet. Hormone reaction (especially to the sugar) is something I haven't thought of so I;m going to look into that a bit more. Last question - would you recommend just a flat macro split (i.e. same everyday) or cycling the carbs?

Thanks again!



Dark sim said:


> True but body composition will be determined by macro split





Ultrasonic said:


> Of course, and eating less/moving more is the most important factor my a huge margin! It's just not absolutely the only factor.





FelonE said:


> Overcomplicated for me lol. I eat in a deficit...I lose weight lol





freddee said:


> Personally I need to restrict my carbs to loose weight and lean up, I would not go keto natural though, I have leaned up well on 3200 cals a day, aprox, I think, iifym is a cop out, it was not intended to be but is misinterpreted by individuals who havnt got the discipline to keep to a good clean diet, i'm not having 6 rounds of bread equals 36 grams of protein as some would like to think or that pizza fits my macro, that's a cheat meal in my book, but that's just my opinion.
> 
> I don't count the human body in thermo dynamics, we are biological too, we have hormones that control the body and its actions on producing energy and also hormones that tell us we are full and to stop eating, we can manipulate these or abuse these to great effect.





BoomTime said:


> Have you considered clen? I find I react massively well to it, 2 weeks on 2 off at 80mcg for me from 13%-10% in 2 weeks with keto diet (100g carbs) and only 1 hiit session a day. It also gets harder to loose fat the lower the percentage gets.


hey guys, wow this blew up, really appreciate y'all taking the time to leave a reply so thanks!

Not considered clen because...well...I'm a bit of a p*ssy and I don't think i'd have the balls to go down the 'assisted' route just for the fact I don't know enough about it and some of the horror stories have been a bit scary.

So that's why I'm trying to do it via diet. Hormone reaction (especially to the sugar) is something I haven't thought of so I;m going to look into that a bit more. Last question - would you recommend just a flat macro split (i.e. same everyday) or cycling the carbs?

Thanks again!


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## Dark sim (May 18, 2013)

steelicarus said:


> hey guys, wow this blew up, really appreciate y'all taking the time to leave a reply so thanks!
> 
> Not considered clen because...well...I'm a bit of a p*ssy and I don't think i'd have the balls to go down the 'assisted' route just for the fact I don't know enough about it and some of the horror stories have been a bit scary.
> 
> ...


Keep it simple, same macro split everyday.

Horror stories about what, clen? Where have you read that, please don't tell me newspapers or internet news?


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## steelicarus (Jul 24, 2011)

Dark sim said:


> Keep it simple, same macro split everyday.
> 
> Horror stories about what, clen? Where have you read that, please don't tell me newspapers or internet news?


Hi mate - left-sided cardiac atrophy, tachycardia, hypokalemia and hypophosphatemia were my biggest worries if I'm honest. I guess if I can get to the same destination, albeit (a lot?) slower naturally I;d rather do that? Happy to hear the other side of things though, always learning


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## Dark sim (May 18, 2013)

steelicarus said:


> Hi mate - left-sided cardiac atrophy, tachycardia, hypokalemia and hypophosphatemia were my biggest worries if I'm honest. I guess if I can get to the same destination, albeit (a lot?) slower naturally I;d rather do that? Happy to hear the other side of things though, always learning


You don't need drugs to get 10%


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## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

Dark sim said:


> True but body composition will be determined by macro split


Skinny fat ftw


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Don't get hung up on the sugar thing, but there is reason to believe that getting all your carbs from high sugar foods (including fruit) might not be optimal. I'm not suggesting that eating a banana is suddenly going to ruin your diet here! Similarly if you are on a low carb diet and are including refeed days with a view to increasing leptin, don't get the majority of your carbs on these days from sugar.


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## robinthatcher (Jul 13, 2015)

this is all new to me, I am trying to get below 10% too but wow this has confused me. I think it varies and you have to find what works for you. I have done clen and it has worked. I have dieted and it has worked. But I am talking low 2000 a day. I saw someone say 3200? Well I could only dream of eating that amount. But that re assures me that if I am disciplined and continue the weight will slowly come off.

Carbs don't work for me I need low carbs to lose weight but I know people who eat higher carbs and lose weight fine. its about knowing your body and what works and experimenting I am learning.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

> this is all new to me, I am trying to get below 10% too but wow this has confused me. I think it varies and you have to find what works for you. I have done clen and it has worked. I have dieted and it has worked. But I am talking low 2000 a day. I saw someone say 3200? Well I could only dream of eating that amount. But that re assures me that if I am disciplined and continue the weight will slowly come off.
> 
> Carbs don't work for me I need low carbs to lose weight but I know people who eat higher carbs and lose weight fine. its about knowing your body and what works and experimenting I am learning.


Don't panic, anyone cutting on 3200 kcal is either properly big, or has a very active job/lifestyle. Most cut on considerably less than this.


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## steelicarus (Jul 24, 2011)

> Don't panic, anyone cutting on 3200 kcal is either properly big, or has a very active job/lifestyle. Most cut on considerably less than this.


I'm on 1833!!!!!


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## freddee (Mar 2, 2009)

Dark sim said:


> You don't need drugs to get 10%


You need a fcukin miracle at my age, but yes it can be done, but there is loosing weight and loosing fat, denying yourself might just leave you in a catabolic state were you are breaking down muscle for energy...


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

> You need a fcukin miracle at my age, but yes it can be done, but there is loosing weight and loosing fat, denying yourself might just leave you in a catabolic state were you are breaking down muscle for energy...


How old are you? I don't think age is much of a factor to be honest. Not cutting too fast is important for muscle retention (natty).


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## freddee (Mar 2, 2009)

Ultrasonic said:


> How old are you? I don't think age is much of a factor to be honest. Not cutting too fast is important for muscle retention (natty).


Well I will be 54 in 3 weeks, and I am struggling for condition now, age does have effect on fat percentage at my age, people who say age is just a number need to live one day at that number to realise you don't recover as quick, and though you train hard you have to train clever, I was 50 in my avi, I think I have made improvements since then but it isn't easy.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

> Well I will be 54 in 3 weeks, and I am struggling for condition now, age does have effect on fat percentage at my age, people who say age is just a number need to live one day at that number to realise you don't recover as quick, and though you train hard you have to train clever, I was 50 in my avi, I think I have made improvements since then but it isn't easy.


I'm 38 BTW. Not saying age isn't a factor, and I take your point about recovery. Where I was coming from is that I generally find that what a lot of people say is their age tending to make them fatter is actually due to reduced activity with age, as well as often more disposable income for nice food. Where age/injuries affect activity this clearly is a factor. Obviously I have no experience of being 54 though.


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## freddee (Mar 2, 2009)

Ultrasonic said:


> I'm 38 BTW. Not saying age isn't a factor, and I take your point about recovery. Where I was coming from is that I generally find that what a lot of people say is their age tending to make them fatter is actually due to reduced activity with age, as well as often more disposable income for nice food. Where age/injuries affect activity this clearly is a factor. Obviously I have no experience of being 54 though.


38, is a great age, you can really push on and get good mass, you should probably be at your strongest,,,


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

> 38, is a great age, you can really push on and get good mass, you should probably be at your strongest,,,


I assume I'd find gaining easier if I was 18 again due to higher testosterone levels, but I didn't train then so I am indeed stronger and leaner now  It's mostly my thinning hair that gives away my age sadly. Hope I look as good as you at 50 BTW.

Ediited due to weird quoting bug!


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## The-Real-Deal (Dec 5, 2014)

I'm bigger and stronger now @ 45 than I was @ 38..... :tongue:

I'm also on the cusp of getting into half decent shape, I still have a way to go before I'm happy though. (Dunno if I will ever be happy really lol). My calories/diet has not changed from day one with the exception of protein supplementation. My body composition has noticeably changed. This has been achieved simply by training hard on a regular basis.


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

Ultimately it boils down to a consistent calorie deficit that is maintainable with a decent protein intake, and unless you are talking about the latter stages of an extreme cut going way below 10% bodyfat there is little that matters generally.

That said, when it comes to consistency and sustainability of a nutritional plan, whether it's a cut or a lean bulk, in order for it to work it helps if you feel good on it emotionally, have decent energy levels and gym performance, and don't hate the foods you have to eat, and that's where picking the right plan comes in.

There are so many different diets that supposedly work by manipulating different aspects of the hormonal milieu, but ultimately they are all mostly pretty equal (the odd one here or there utter shyte) although will only work well for an individual if they fit with that individuals genetics, psychology and lifestyle. The different effects of different plans is mostly due to the individuals suitability for the plan than differences in the plans themselves.

One thing that often hampers progress though is chopping and changing approaches. Having an overall plan that includes mini adjustments as you go - absolutely the way to do it, but overall consistency of the plan is what is needed not huge changes from one nutritional plan to another.

IMO if the IIFYM plan is working and you feel good doing it then keep with it. If it's working but it feels like you are inches from ditching it then probably an idea to try something else as your time on it sounds limited before a crash anyway... and of course if it's not working satisfactorily against a realistic expectation then dump it for another plan immediately.

Find something you enjoy though that fits easily with your mentality and lifestyle as well as how your body responds.


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