# Shakes on a Keto



## Andrew Jacks (Sep 29, 2010)

So you take the plunge and start a high protein keto diet, your diet is mostly protein normally comprised of what has become expensive meats, the price has doubled in 6 months for me.

Why then keep having more than three shakes a day even on none training days, another item that is becoming more and more expensive?

It amazes me the amount of people who are on keto diets and have three sugary yummy shakes a day adding rubbish carbs when they are on such a restricted diet and limit the amount of carbs they allowed. Don't get me wrong shakes have a place on keto around resistant workouts.

This morning a young lad had just done his fasted cardio and was in the changing room downing a MM shake and was surprised as to why he could not get his keto started, is it because it is called a protein shake or do people not want to think.

Keto diet is high protein, you do not need to supplement protein, you need to supplement and think about carbs and vitamins. Shakes are brilliant around resistant workouts to give the system a quick boost, but unless you are flush with money they are not as important as people would have you believe

Rant over.


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## Guest (Jan 13, 2011)

Andrew Jacks said:


> So you take the plunge and start a high protein keto diet, your diet is mostly protein normally comprised of what has become expensive meats,


Find better deals on meat.

I buy chicken breasts at £20/5kg

Rump steak at £10/2.25kg

Use cheaper cuts, Chicken legs/thighs although a bit higher in fat, cook in the oven on a wire rack and youd be surprised how lean you can get them. and the fat doesnt matter as much on keto anyway.

Turkey breast is cheap as feck.

Also, keto isnt high protein. Its normal (for BBer's) and high fat.

Your amazed at how many people are on keto and drink sugary shakes?? well, they aint on keto and are thick. So dont worry about it.


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## Andrew Jacks (Sep 29, 2010)

mikex101 said:


> Also, keto isnt high protein. Its normal (for BBer's) and high fat.
> 
> .


You need high fat to start a keto, but once started it is based around high protein, nobody can live on fat


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## Guest (Jan 13, 2011)

You up your protein and drop your fat too much and youll not be in keto long.


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## Guest (Jan 13, 2011)

I'm in keto now and find having my 3 shakes a day mixed with my peanut butter gets my fats, protiens and calories up,i think that if you use an isolate protien aswell there are less carbs than normal whey,but i dont know how much of a difference it would make,


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## Andrew Jacks (Sep 29, 2010)

seb1970 said:


> I'm in keto now and find having my 3 shakes a day mixed with my peanut butter gets my fats, protiens and calories up,i think that if you use an isolate protien aswell there are less carbs than normal whey,but i dont know how much of a difference it would make,


We could argue for hours but given this is not what the thread is about, lets a gree to disagree. My comment is about people using protein shakes on a Keto diet


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## Andrew Jacks (Sep 29, 2010)

seb1970 said:


> I'm in keto now and find having my 3 shakes a day mixed with my peanut butter gets my fats, protiens and calories up,i think that if you use an isolate protien aswell there are less carbs than normal whey,but i dont know how much of a difference it would make,


Seb I am not suggesting isolate I think on none weights days they should not be having any shakes, it's a marketing trick which all forums have fallen victim to.


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## Guest (Jan 13, 2011)

Andrew Jacks said:


> My comment is about people using protein shakes on a Keto diet


Ideally theres no need for protein shakes at all. Ever. But its cheep, east protein. So why not?


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## Andrew Jacks (Sep 29, 2010)

The phrase working smarter, not harder comes to mind, if people just want to pick lines out of comment and try and start an argument as seems to common over the past few months good for them, but the subject is clear and open for all to debate, I honestly find it adds little to debate semantics when I thought this forum was here to advance all forms of muscle development rather than egos

And given as straughany10 have quoted my comment to Mike and then commented about ANOTHER comment to Sebs 3 shakes sums up this nit picking designed to start fights rather than debate the sport, oh the quest for reps. Really sad


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## Guest (Jan 13, 2011)

Ok, ill reply in full



Andrew Jacks said:


> So you take the plunge and start a high protein keto diet, your diet is mostly protein normally comprised of what has become expensive meats, the price has doubled in 6 months for me.
> 
> Theres alot of ways to reduce your meat bill.
> 
> ...


And if you think i rep hunt mate, your sadly mistaken. I contradicted you as i dont agree with you. Thats all.


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## freddee (Mar 2, 2009)

wrong, high protein which should be high anyway and you replace your carb calories for fat calories obviously there are more calories in fat than carbs, so you have to make that adjustement, once your body has converted from using carbs as its main energy source to fats, then fats are metabolised and used as energy, so with the help of cardio, and calorie deficit you will burn fat..... even when not on keto it is well known that low fat dairy high in calsium will burn double the fat in the body than a low dairy diet, protein in itself is a dietry source, it releases a hormone called PPI which sends a message to the brain that you are full.....


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## freddee (Mar 2, 2009)

I used protein shakes during a keto diet, and the weight flew of me, you talk about all the sugers, if there are only 7 grams of carbs, in 100 grams then there can not be too many sugers as sugers come from carbs, I just don't think you have done your homework imo, if you are worried about extra carbs then you have to cut out things like peanut butter ect, but you can get away with a few shakes, you have a window of about 50 grams everyone is different but I used that as my bench mark and stayed within it, the first load of weight you will loose is water but the fat follows!


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## 2004mark (Oct 26, 2013)

Andrew, with all due respect I think you are mixing protein shakes up with meal replacement shakes or post workout shakes. My unflavoured whey contains 1.8g of carbs per scoop, and at 21 pence a scoop for 25g or protein, it is far cheaper than meat.


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

OK lets get this clear- to high a protein level means you DON'T stay in ketosis, the body PREFERS GLUCONEOGENESIS:

FIRST- cells use the krebs cycle for energy..

Major metabolic pathways converging on the TCA cycle

Several catabolic pathways converge on the TCA cycle. Reactions that form intermediates of the TCA cycle in order to replenish them (especially during the scarcity of the intermediates) are called anaplerotic reactions.

The citric acid cycle is the *third step in carbohydrate catabolism* (the breakdown of sugars). *Glycolysis breaks glucose *(a six-carbon-molecule) down into pyruvate (a three-carbon molecule). In eukaryotes, pyruvate moves into the mitochondria. It is converted into acetyl-CoA by decarboxylation and enters the citric acid cycle.

In *protein catabolism, proteins are broken down by proteases into their constituent amino acids. The carbon backbone of these amino acids can become a source of energy* by being converted to acetyl-CoA and entering into the citric acid cycle.

In *fat catabolism, triglycerides are hydrolyzed to break them into fatty acids and glycerol. In the liver the glycerol can be converted into glucose* via dihydroxyacetone phosphate and glyceraldehyde-3-phosphate by way of gluconeogenesis. In many tissues, especially heart tissue, fatty acids are broken down through a process known as beta oxidation, which results in acetyl-CoA, which can be used in the citric acid cycle. Beta oxidation of fatty acids with an odd number of methylene groups produces propionyl CoA, which is then converted into succinyl-CoA and fed into the citric acid cycle.[12]

The total energy gained from the complete breakdown of one molecule of glucose by glycolysis, the citric acid cycle, and oxidative phosphorylation equals about 30 ATP molecules, in eukaryotes. The citric acid cycle is called an amphibolic pathway because it participates in both catabolism and anabolism.

Now.. in more detail: Glycolisis

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glycolysis

and gluconeogenesis:

Gluconeogenesis (abbreviated GNG) is a metabolic pathway that results in the generation of glucose from non-carbohydrate carbon substrates such as lactate, glycerol, and glucogenic amino acids.

It is one of the two main mechanisms humans and many other animals use to keep blood glucose levels from dropping too low (hypoglycemia). The other means of maintaining blood glucose levels is through the degradation of glycogen (glycogenolysis). [1]

from:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gluconeogenesis

and finally, ketogenesis (energy from fatty acids):

Metabolic pathways

When glycogen stores are not available in the cells, fat (triacylglycerol) is cleaved to give 3 fatty acid chains and 1 glycerol molecule in a process called lipolysis. Most of the body is able to utilize fatty acids as an alternative source of energy in a process called beta-oxidation. One of the products of beta-oxidation is acetyl-CoA, which can be further used in the Krebs cycle. During prolonged fasting or starvation, acetyl-CoA in the liver is used to produce ketone bodies instead, leading to a state of ketosis.

During starvation or a long physical training session, the body starts utilizing fatty acids instead of glucose. The brain cannot use long-chain fatty acids for energy because they are completely albumin bound and cannot cross the blood-brain barrier. Not all medium-chain fatty acids are bound to albumin. The unbound medium chain fatty acids are soluble in the blood and can cross the blood brain barrier.[1] The ketone bodies produced in the liver can also cross the blood-brain barrier. In the brain, these ketone bodies are then incorporated into acetyl-CoA and used in the Krebs cycle.

The ketone body acetoacetate will slowly decarboxylate into acetone, a volatile compound that is both metabolized as an energy source and lost in the breath and urine.

from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketosis

WHAT DOES ALL THAT MEAN??

Well, all metabolics pathways lead to the KREBS cycle for energy in the mitochondria, and this can happen (in order of preference by the body):

1. Glycolisis (break down sugars/carbs for energy)

2. gluconeogenesis (break down amino's for energy, transforming them to GLUCOSE)

3. Ketogenesis- burn ketones for energy, derived from FAT

If your protein levels are high, your body will stick to gluconeogenesis as it is metabolically easier than ketosis- which only happens in starvation (or hard dieting, with metabolic tricks)

You are more likely to enter/stay in ketosis by having HIGH fat levels and medium proteins, rather than high proteins..

Of course if you use AASs, which promote the retention of nitrogen (ie the N from the amine group NH), then your body may not release enough glucogenic amino acids for glucogenesis to occur, and ketosis may begin... but this takes time, and happens quicker if the FATS are freely available..

NOW why zero carb whey shakes on CKD? I use a zero carb (in water) shake, with some MCT added, post workout, but then again, I also use 3-4iu of insulin with the shake (yes CARBLESS postworkout insulin) to drive the extra amino's into the muscle thats been worked out... I believe this has helped me drop 10% bf on a CKD, but with only a 1kg decrease in bodyweight.. I beleive this has helped not just preserve muscle mass, but also increase it (combined with a daily carb up, with insulin- the insulin allows me to carb up every afternoon prior to the weights workout and be in ketosis before breakfast the next morning..)


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## Guest (Jan 13, 2011)

No probs And,


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

seb1970 said:


> I'm in keto now and find having my 3 shakes a day mixed with my peanut butter gets my fats, protiens and calories up,i think that if you use an isolate protien aswell there are less carbs than normal whey,but i dont know how much of a difference it would make,


you can get away with some carbs, as you prob already know 

However, I prefer to get my carbs from fibrous veg, to stop constipation, and just to eat something other than proteins and fats.. LOL

I use the ZERO carb whey from true protein:

http://www.trueprotein.com/Product_Details.aspx?cid=22&pid=65

but I also get some QNT brand locally (tesco health food stores):

http://www.qntuk.com/index.php/qnt-metapure-zero-carb-1.html

hope this helps


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## Guest (Jan 13, 2011)

ausbuilt,another interesting read and im more confused now than when i started!lol


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## 2004mark (Oct 26, 2013)

That is some expensive protein there lol


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## Andrew Jacks (Sep 29, 2010)

At least we seem to have stimulated some interesting comments now, so lets examine the word Keto, which is "cutting" - eating protein is "building" you can not gain on keto diet so why have whey shakes, sorry to labour the point, when on a keto do the diet, yes have a shake around training but having three shakes a day is pointless your body does not care about building just maintenance which your body and diet should have covered given the protein you are eating on the keto


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## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

Andrew Jacks said:


> At least we seem to have stimulated some interesting comments now, so lets examine the word Keto, which is "cutting" - eating protein is "building" you can not gain on keto diet so why have whey shakes, sorry to labour the point, when on a keto do the diet, yes have a shake around training but having three shakes a day is pointless your body does not care about building just maintenance which your body and diet should have covered given the protein you are eating on the keto


In English?

If you consume sufficient calories, you can build muscle on a keto diet actually. That said it's not ideal for a host of reasons that aren't worth going into at this point.

What exactly is your point here? That shakes aren't ideal on Keto? The yes I agree, but you can fit them into a ketogenic diet if you want to.


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## Andrew Jacks (Sep 29, 2010)

2004mark said:


> Andrew, with all due respect I think you are mixing protein shakes up with meal replacement shakes or post workout shakes. My unflavoured whey contains 1.8g of carbs per scoop, and at 21 pence a scoop for 25g or protein, it is far cheaper than meat.


Mark I have a degree in biology, been training for twenty plus years but still willing to accept if I am wrong. If Mike looks back through the thread he in facts agrees with the point I was making when he said

"You up your protein and drop your fat too much and youll not be in keto long. "

Exactly what I have been saying


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## dannw (Apr 7, 2010)

I diagree, I think protein shakes with a couple table spoons of Extra virgin Oil are a great breakfast when on Kato, you get the right mix of proteim/fat with very low Carbs.


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## 2004mark (Oct 26, 2013)

Andrew Jacks said:


> At least we seem to have stimulated some interesting comments now, so lets examine the word Keto, which is "cutting" - eating protein is "building" you can not gain on keto diet so why have whey shakes, sorry to labour the point, when on a keto do the diet, yes have a shake around training but having three shakes a day is pointless your body does not care about building just maintenance which your body and diet should have covered given the protein you are eating on the keto


I don't think things are as black and white as you make out.

Protein is not just for building, it's also for maintenance. Keto is generally used for cutting, but as Bayman has just pointed out here: http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/food-diet-nutrition-info/123443-buckwheat-rice-good-bad-2.html you can gain weight on keto too. You can also bulk on a low carb diet as Prodiver has explained here :http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/food-diet-nutrition-info/123578-wanted-diet-low-sugar-hi-gi-foods-thats-conveniant.htm

Even when cutting (keto or no keto) you will have a daily target for your protein intake, lets just say 200g for argument sake, sure you can get that from whole foods, and that would be the preferable option... but it is cheaper and more convenient (for some) to get at least a proportion of that through whey.

Shakes are just a food source, if they fit into your daily macro then why not?


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## Guest (Jan 13, 2011)

For me And its all about what i can fit into a busy day! also i would rather mix my peanut butter with my shake than have 3 tablespoons,i would be sucking it out of my teeth all day!!


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## Andrew Jacks (Sep 29, 2010)

2004mark said:


> Shakes are just a food source, if they fit into your daily macro then why not?


LOL ok show me the evidence that protein shakes contain nearly as much protein as they claim without going to a manufacturers site, particularly isolate.

I think meat already present in a keto diet is all the protein you need. You seem to think I am suggesting no meat or protein shake, what I am stating is meat is already present on a keto diet so why bother with a shake, simples

If you can counter feel free.


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## Andrew Jacks (Sep 29, 2010)

seb1970 said:


> For me And its all about what i can fit into a busy day! also i would rather mix my peanut butter with my shake than have 3 tablespoons,i would be sucking it out of my teeth all day!!


Nobody is knocking it as some would have you believe, I am not saying it is wrong just throwing money away which you r free to do


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## Robbyg (Feb 25, 2008)

I think in some case's that certain people doing keto diets find it cheaper to drink a skake than to buy chicken meat fish ect and a lot of employers dont like people having a meal every few hrs lol. Yes i agree a solid meal is better than a shake


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## Virtus (Apr 30, 2007)

Andrew Jacks said:


> At least we seem to have stimulated some interesting comments now, so lets examine the word Keto, which is "cutting" - eating protein is "building" *you can not gain on keto diet so why have whey shakes*, sorry to labour the point, when on a keto do the diet, yes have a shake around training but having three shakes a day is pointless your body does not care about building just maintenance which your body and diet should have covered given the protein you are eating on the keto


Andrew you can gain on a Keto, the Ananbolic Diet talk about building muscles while loosing bodyfat using a Ketogenic approach. The word Keto does not mean cutting, it is one of a hundred ways to loose weight, but they all have the same outcome which is fewer calories than required. I can enter a Ketogenic state eating 4000calories a day, it does not mean I am cutting.

And the use of Protein shakes in a keto diet (whether for cutting or bulking) will be, has pointed out, an easier way of consuming calories, adding evoo, nuts, peanut butter will turn a simple protein shake into a balanced keto snack. The thermogenic affect that food has on the body is better by eating solid foods, but the busy schedule that most people have nowadays means that Protein Shakes are an effective replacement.


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## Virtus (Apr 30, 2007)

Also, people think by cutting carbs back and keeping protein high will automatically enter Keto, this is not the case has pointed out by ausbuilt, to much protein will lead to gluconeogenesis.. An effective Keto approach (for cutting) will keep protein around LBM and the rest fat; once weight loss halts the reduction of 250cals per week from fat content should occur, leaving protein always around LBM. A lot of people don't know how to effectivley run a Keto diet


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## 2004mark (Oct 26, 2013)

Andrew Jacks said:


> LOL ok show me the evidence that protein shakes contain nearly as much protein as they claim without going to a manufacturers site, particularly isolate.
> 
> I think meat already present in a keto diet is all the protein you need. You seem to think I am suggesting no meat or protein shake, what I am stating is meat is already present on a keto diet so why bother with a shake, simples
> 
> If you can counter feel free.


I agree you should get all the protein you can from whole foods, not just meet, and then,* if need be*, top up with shakes... it's that point you seem to have a problem with.

I don't think for a moment that you have suggesting no meat or protein shakes... what has made you think that?

As for evidence of the protein content of shakes, wtf?


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## Andrew Jacks (Sep 29, 2010)

Virtus you seem to enjoy teaching your nan to suck eggs this thread is about why suppplement protein shakes on a keto diet not nit picking, you are stating the obvious for some unknown reason.

I think RobbyG makes a valid point that some people are unable to have real food at certain times of the day, still not requiring three shakes a day though, have people been this brainwashed into the powers of protein shakes?


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## Virtus (Apr 30, 2007)

Andrew Jacks said:


> *So you take the plunge and start a high protein keto diet*, your diet is mostly protein normally comprised of what has become expensive meats, the price has doubled in 6 months for me.
> 
> Why then keep having more than three shakes a day even on none training days, another item that is becoming more and more expensive?
> 
> ...


Its not nit picking, its correcting you. Automatically assuming Keto is high protein is not correct.

Saying the lad did not enter Keto just because he was drinking a protein shake is irrelevant, there could be a hundred different factor has to why he hasn't entered a ketogenic state.


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## j1mmytt (Jan 12, 2011)

I have up to 4 shakes a day but i either mix with olive oil, peanut butter or raw eggs blended up apart from post workout where its just pure with ofcourse a fast acting carb i even have a shake in the middle of the night around 3-4am when i wake up for a pee with some olive oil. I have only just started this keto thing but i have never been this cut before but im still skepticle to wheather im actually in ketosis i have tested using the ketostix and theres a very faint pink colour. Im still adjusting my diet and i am worried about having too much protein in my diet so maybe i will have to reduce the shakes hmmmmmmm. BTW they are whey with 1g carbs per serving. any tips?


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## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

Andrew, I really don't see your point.

Most respected manufactuers of protein have had their stuff independantly tested, some of which was done by members of this very forum. Although I do understnad your reservations about powders.

As for using a powder on keto to hit your protein requirements - I don't see a problem so long as it fits with the overall diet.


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## Andrew Jacks (Sep 29, 2010)

Virtus said:


> Its not nit picking, its correcting you. Automatically assuming Keto is high protein is not correct.
> 
> Saying the lad did not enter Keto just because he was drinking a protein shake is irrelevant, there could be a hundred different factor has to why he hasn't entered a ketogenic state.


Now you opt to return to the start of thread rather than following it from where you jumped in. It was you who stated the obvious like you has just discovered the 11th commandment but now you retreat when challenged. I seem to be rocking opinions but finding people 100% unable to answer why they are supplementing protein on a Keto diet.

At least if you persist with this attack add some value and knowledge for all to read rather nit picking.


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

Andrew Jacks said:


> At least we seem to have stimulated some interesting comments now, so lets examine the word Keto, which is "cutting" - eating protein is "building" you can not gain on keto diet so why have whey shakes, sorry to labour the point, when on a keto do the diet, yes have a shake around training but having three shakes a day is pointless your body does not care about building just maintenance which your body and diet should have covered given the protein you are eating on the keto


Hi Andrew,

I do enjoy the interesting forum posts  ones that make me think!

I see no probs with shakes on a keto diet, as long as they are zero carb whey (as I've posted from true protein, or QNT, there may be others).

Problem is zero carb shakes, mixed with cold water, and even with a bit of MCT oil (or coconut or palm etc) are hardly enjoyable... at least for me.. I kind of just slam then down, trying not to breath or stop.. LOL

Now I really don't care whether my protein comes from steak mmmmmmmm I LOVE Steak (and I'm lucky enough that most nights I choose to have aberdeen angus fillet steak, and I NEVER get sick of it.. sometimes i throw a tuna steak on the grill for heart health about twice per week), or powder...

Thing is, on a keto diet, I often STRUGGLE to eat my meals.. so even when I'm not hungry, and to be honest I could go from breakfast to dinner and not be hungry when in keto.. in that case some liquid protein/fat shake does the trick...

While I consume about 60% of my cals from fats, the protein is important to at least retain muscle... if you're on a keto diet, AND on AAS, you have the advantage that the AAS will retain N (nitrogen, from the amine group- NH) and this moves your body preferentially into ketogenesis rather than gluconeogensis first which happens when you are natty (why it takes longer to get into keto natty).

Ok, so I take AAS... and this helps.. but to retain muscle, and in fact GROW some is possible with enough metabolic trickery...

my main trick... i've moved past metformin..

I begin a morning in keto (light) when I awake at 7am, I go to the gym and do 30min of cardio.. am deeper in keto.. (still fasted from night before); I eat keto meals until midday; at 2pm I have 10iu 'slin (actrapid),wait 30min and start carbing up... dextrose and whey to start, ending on bagels and whey at 6pm. I work out at 6:30pm. by 7:15pm (immediate post workout) i have 4iu 'slin (CARBLESS). i then eat keto meals; I have another 3iu 'slin (CABRLESS) at 10pm... I'm in keto by midnight or soon after...

using this protocol, over the past 14 weeks I've moved from 106kg and 22% to 105kg and 12% (my current avatar).. I'm shooting for 7% over the next 10-12 weeks, and trying not to drop below 103kg... this means muscle HAS been built on a CKD... HOWEVER I admit its a pretty RADICAL protocol... and NO ONE should assume they can do 4iu of actrapid and no carbs and not go hypo.. I started out doing 2iu... and built up for a start...


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## Virtus (Apr 30, 2007)

Andrew Jacks said:


> Now you opt to return to the start of thread rather than following it from where you jumped in. It was you who stated the obvious like you has just discovered the 11th commandment but now you retreat when challenged. *I seem to be rocking opinions but finding people 100% unable to answer why they are supplementing protein on a Keto diet*.
> 
> At least if you persist with this attack add some value and knowledge for all to read rather nit picking.


- Speed

- ease of being able to have something to eat without cooking

- Being able to correctly work out macro's

- Most companies have good quality, pharma grade protein

- Low Carb, Low fat

- Inexpensive and cheaper than meat

- People struggle to eat 6 solid food meals

There will be no knowledge has to why people use protein shakes in a keto diet has it will be down to personal preference, but above would be why some people may use them.

And i didn't act like I had discovered the 11th commandment, i just wanted to point out to people the mistakes you where making with regards to Ketogenic dieting.


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## Andrew Jacks (Sep 29, 2010)

Aus sorry for ignoring you, you clearly know your stuff, so I let it go, because I do not want to swamp the forum I really wonder if people just neck protein powders without thinking what they are doing. Particularly poor powders - the guy up the gym this morning was using a mass formula from MM.

I 100% agree with Mike, Keto is about fat particularly as you start the process. I do not think many people are a million miles apart here as we agree meat is best, but if on a Keto that is all you can eat more or less, so why supplement, what they should be supplementing is things they are missing having a high meat diet and not just nuts and oil

Very good comments Aus, keep them coming it is good to see a few people handing out helpful information rather singing the same old mantras


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## Andrew Jacks (Sep 29, 2010)

Virtus said:


> - Inexpensive and cheaper than meat


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

no probs Andrew,

i'm not a fan of many things in the supplement industry- whey protein is not magic, and not far removed from skim milk powder (actually thats what it is with the lactose mostly, or completely removed!). The only issue with protein powders is the "hidden carbs" as often people don't realise the amount of carbs in a couple of scoops.. and if in milk.. loads of sugars.. but if choosing a ZERO carb whey (there are a few around, and even Reflex do a ZERO carb Ready to Drink! that tastes pretty good) its fine to use on a keto diet..

I find apart from meat, I eat cheese, and thankfully find I can even have a glass of red with my triple fat brie and not move out of keto.... mmmmm

there are no hard and fast rules- perhaps someone may stay in keto even with a moderate carb shake.. only a BG reading would say for sure (fasting BG levels are below 5.6mmol/L and its impossible to be in keto above this level..)


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## Andrew Jacks (Sep 29, 2010)

ausbuilt said:


> using this protocol, over the past 14 weeks I've moved from 106kg and 22% to 105kg and 12% (my current avatar).. I'm shooting for 7% over the next 10-12 weeks, and trying not to drop below 103kg... this means muscle HAS been built on a CKD... HOWEVER I admit its a pretty RADICAL protocol... and NO ONE should assume they can do 4iu of actrapid and no carbs and not go hypo.. I started out doing 2iu... and built up for a start...


Being a nat for 20 years I would not have known this, so reps for updating my knowledge. Lets hope we do not need to divide comments based on which side of the fence we reside


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## Virtus (Apr 30, 2007)




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## Andrew Jacks (Sep 29, 2010)

ausbuilt said:


> there are no hard and fast rules- perhaps someone may stay in keto even with a moderate carb shake.. only a BG reading would say for sure (fasting BG levels are below 5.6mmol/L and its impossible to be in keto above this level..)


Fully agree, us older folk also have slower metabolism so burn the stuff slower than the youth who can eat lollipops whilst benching and remain in keto, fully agree about the red n Cheese btw, you often find popping over to France to stock up

All the best


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

Andrew Jacks said:


> Being a nat for 20 years I would not have known this, so reps for updating my knowledge. Lets hope we do not need to divide comments based on which side of the fence we reside


you start with food... then the more you want to change the time of changes, the more metabolic tricks you need... AAS, insulin etc area all just tools. There's never a need to separate posts, as food is still food  on a diet.. however, what your body can do, and how you can change it comes from the use of extra tools... as an example, you could NEVER do a CKD with a daily carb up naturally, on the other hand there is nothing wrong with a weekly carb up (which can be achieved naturally), however results take longer and the truth is, when dieting you normally lose muscle.. you lose less with AAS.. but you can in fact lose none/gain if you use enough tools... I guess the use of all the other tools means you don't go backwards as often everytime you diet..


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## Andrew Jacks (Sep 29, 2010)

Virtus said:


> Why is Keto a high meat diet?????


Dude here is the Keto.org (just an example) website, please show me the meals you plan to eat which are not meat

ttp://www.keto.org/ look under foods > Safe Foods

Beef, Steak, Hamburger, Prime Rib, Filet Mignon, Roast Beef, Chicken*, Duck, Any Fish*, Tuna*, Salmon*, Trout*, Halibut*, Lamb, Pork, Bacon, Ham, Eggs, Shrimp, Crab, Lobster, Butter, Oils (Olive Oil*, Flaxseed oil*, etc.), Mustard, Salt, Pepper, Soy Sauce, Tea, Coffee, Heavy Cream and Nutrasweet/Equal


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

Andrew Jacks said:


> actually andrew, keto diet is a diet where KETONE bodies are used as the main pathway into the krebs cycle, via KETOGENESIS.
> 
> When glycogen stores are not available in the cells, fat (triacylglycerol) is cleaved to give 3 fatty acid chains and 1 glycerol molecule in a process called lipolysis. Most of the body is able to utilize fatty acids as an alternative source of energy in a process called beta-oxidation. One of the products of beta-oxidation is acetyl-CoA, which can be further used in the Krebs cycle. During prolonged fasting or starvation, acetyl-CoA in the liver is used to produce ketone bodies instead, leading to a state of ketosis.
> 
> ...


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## freddee (Mar 2, 2009)

Ketones are what is basically left from fat that is burnt or has been metabolised, keto diets were first used in the treatment of children with severe epilepsy it was noticed that it calmed them down and helped stop them tripping out basically, and to see if you are in ketosis your urine is checked for those ketones, I think you could do with revisiting your sources of information on this subject....


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

Andrew Jacks said:


> Dude here is the Keto.org (just an example) website, please show me the meals you plan to eat which are not meat
> 
> ttp://www.keto.org/ look under foods > Safe Foods
> 
> Beef, Steak, Hamburger, Prime Rib, Filet Mignon, Roast Beef, Chicken*, Duck, Any Fish*, Tuna*, Salmon*, Trout*, Halibut*, Lamb, Pork, Bacon, Ham, Eggs, Shrimp, Crab, Lobster, Butter, Oils (Olive Oil*, Flaxseed oil*, etc.), Mustard, Salt, Pepper, Soy Sauce, Tea, Coffee, Heavy Cream and Nutrasweet/Equal


yeah thats just a practical aspect...

as an example one of my meals is three different cheeses... and one of my snack is a can of whipped cream (48% fat 2% carbs) mmmm there's two meals 

I also have this for desert:

http://www.superfit.co.uk/cnp-professional-pro-dessert-15-sachet-s.html

three meals no meat.. LOL


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## Andrew Jacks (Sep 29, 2010)

ausbuilt said:


> Technically, you could be on a ketogenic diet eating 100% butter.. or drinking olive oil.. or in fact eating whipped cream.. just it wouldn't be pleasant.. and your body would lose muscle from lack of aminos...


Not really a desirable path for a bodybuilder as the concept is to maintain or minimise loss whilst you loose fat and the brain is not fan of ketones thus the reason some Carbs are required and the reason we go through the retardation period when Keto kicks in


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## thermique (Sep 15, 2010)

In the example OP gave the mistake that young lad was making was having musclemilk on keto which is like syntha6/myofusion, more like an MRP/a relatively high carb shake. If you are on keto a tube of isolate from one of the bulk suppliers is very low carb (to keep you in keto) and cost effective relative to meat.


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## Virtus (Apr 30, 2007)

Andrew Jacks said:


> Dude here is the Keto.org (just an example) website, please show me the meals you plan to eat which are not meat
> 
> ttp://www.keto.org/ look under foods > Safe Foods
> 
> Beef, Steak, Hamburger, Prime Rib, Filet Mignon, Roast Beef, Chicken*, Duck, Any Fish*, Tuna*, Salmon*, Trout*, Halibut*, Lamb, Pork, Bacon, Ham, Eggs, Shrimp, Crab, Lobster, Butter, Oils (Olive Oil*, Flaxseed oil*, etc.), Mustard, Salt, Pepper, Soy Sauce, Tea, Coffee, Heavy Cream and Nutrasweet/Equal


Thanks for the basics, but i know what to eat, how to set-up, run and refeed on a Ketogenic diet. But i could just eat fish and its then a non meat diet.

Anyway thats not the point. The amount of meat (as you put it) will not be the issue because if running a keto diet then protein will be around your LBM (Lean Body Mass) and the rest coming from fat. It will be no different from any other cutting diet, i think this is what you cannot get your head around. I'll break it down below, rough and nice and easy for you.

A 200lb man, with LBM, of 170lb wants to start a CKD, is macro break down will look like this.

Cals per day - 2200

Grams Protein per day - 170 (his LBM) x 1 (1g per lb to maintain) = 170g protein per day

cals from pro - 170 x 4 = 680

cals from fat - 2200(overall cals) - 680(his pro) = 1520 cals from fat

Grams Fat Per day - 1520 (cals of fat) / 9(cals per gram of fat) = 168g fat

So i don't see how that is high meat. 6 (meals a day) divided by 170 (allowance of protein per day) = 28g protein per meal.


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

Andrew Jacks said:


> Not really a desirable path for a bodybuilder as the concept is to maintain or minimise loss whilst you loose fat and the brain is not fan of ketones thus the reason some Carbs are required and the reason we go through the retardation period when Keto kicks in


 oh so true.. I was just saying theoretically...

Definitely the body does not like keto- hence its the LEAST preferred and last to be used to enter the krebs cycle.. and glucolysis is FIRST!

i have to say what I miss MOST during the week on my CKD is ICE CREAM, as its too high in carbs for keto and to high in fat for carbing up :-((

thankfully SUnday is not training and a food cheat day for me.. so i hang out to have icecream... but i get the feeling to get to 7% I may need to drop my cheat day...


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## freddee (Mar 2, 2009)

I have suger free jelly and double cream on keto I also have cheese grilled, they are my morall boosters!!


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

When you eat protein on a low carb diet like keto, any excess above what you need just for growth and repair is deaminated in the liver and converted to carbohydrate and ketone fuel substrates. If the amount of protein taken in exceeds the amount needed for repair and growth by a large amount then there can easily be enough glucose synthesised from that protein to knock someone out of ketosis.

You can be taking in less than 10g of carbs per day everyday and still be not in keto if your protein is too high compared to your fats. There's no magic formula, but through trial and error anyone who decides to follow keto long term should be able to find out what balance of fats and proteins works for them. Various factors such as activity level will effect the amount, as the more anearboic activity you perform the higher the amount of protein that will be used for gluconeogensis, but generally a proper keto diet requires a protein intake much lower than most other bodybuilding diets.

Don't forget the calorie deficit either - there's a weird myth going around on some forums suggesting that it's impossible to gain fat whilst on keto no matter how much you eat. Low carb diets may allow for greater subcutaneous fat turnover, but fat loss/gain is still governed by calorie balance. Trust me, on a keto or low carb diet plan you can still get plenty fat if you overeat!

In respect of low carb protein shakes, whey isolate with coconut milk and water is yummy - and nicely low carb


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## Andrew Jacks (Sep 29, 2010)

Dtlv74 said:


> When you eat protein on a low carb diet like keto, any excess above what you need just for growth and repair is deaminated in the liver and converted to carbohydrate and ketone fuel substrates.


Have you any links to this theory dude, keto is burning fat to give you ketones which replace carbs as energy


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

freddee said:


> I have suger free jelly and double cream on keto I also have cheese grilled, they are my morall boosters!!


d'Oh! I forget about the jelly!! man gonna put that on my grocery list today!!!


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## Virtus (Apr 30, 2007)

Andrew Jacks said:


> Have you any links to this theory dude, keto is burning fat to give you ketones which replace carbs as energy


Andrew i've got pdf versions of BodyOpus, Anabolic Diet and The Ketogenic diet if you like me to send you them. These will bring you up to speed with Ketogenic Diets, how they work, how muscle/liver glycogen operate, what to eat, how to work out calorific requirements


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## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

Andrew Jacks said:


> Have you any links to this theory dude, keto is burning fat to give you ketones which replace carbs as energy


It's not theory, it's accepted scientific fact. Ausbuilt has already provided lots of links for you to read.

Essentially excess protein is turned to glucose via gluconeogenesis. This is one of things to try and avoid whist running a keto set-up.


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## Andrew Jacks (Sep 29, 2010)

Virtus said:


> Andrew i've got pdf versions of BodyOpus, Anabolic Diet and The Ketogenic diet if you like me to send you them. These will bring you up to speed with Ketogenic Diets, how they work, how muscle/liver glycogen operate, what to eat, how to work out calorific requirements


Your ok, you seem to be happy, I think you have had enough attention from me, I was clearly asking another. At least your comment has confirmed that rather than learning about a diet you are simply following what others suggest, which is one of the reasons I started this thread, learning "why" rather than preaching what others say. I have the bible and Jesus feeds the thousands with two fish, beats any keto and remains the most popular book of all time, but not something I suggest everyone should try, so no books for me; I would sooner question the conjecture and learn


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## Andrew Jacks (Sep 29, 2010)

bayman said:


> It's not theory, it's accepted scientific fact. Ausbuilt has already provided lots of links.
> 
> Essentially excess protein is turned to other fuel substrates.


Bayman try reading the quote above mine then applying my quote rather jumping in ignoring the quote I was responding to, something you seem to enjoy doing.


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## Robbyg (Feb 25, 2008)

Virtus said:


> Andrew i've got pdf versions of BodyOpus, Anabolic Diet and The Ketogenic diet if you like me to send you them. These will bring you up to speed with Ketogenic Diets, how they work, how muscle/liver glycogen operate, what to eat, how to work out calorific requirements


Send them my way please always good to have more information to learn from cheers


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## 2004mark (Oct 26, 2013)

Can I just say... this has been my favourite thread of the week so far. Thanks Andrew


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

Virtus said:


> Andrew i've got pdf versions of BodyOpus, Anabolic Diet and The Ketogenic diet if you like me to send you them. These will bring you up to speed with Ketogenic Diets, how they work, how muscle/liver glycogen operate, what to eat, how to work out calorific requirements


I first got into keto diets based on BodyOPus, and its from that that I learned about met etc..


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## Andrew Jacks (Sep 29, 2010)

2004mark said:


> Can I just say... this has been my favourite thread of the week so far. Thanks Andrew


Lol must admit with my new year keto kicking in today, I could have hoped for quiter time. I normally walk away from the wind-ups, but with the keto and all - it has acted to take the sting out

All the best, nothing pers early


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## Robbyg (Feb 25, 2008)

Virtus said:


> Thanks for the basics, but i know what to eat, how to set-up, run and refeed on a Ketogenic diet. But i could just eat fish and its then a non meat diet.
> 
> Anyway thats not the point. The amount of meat (as you put it) will not be the issue because if running a keto diet then protein will be around your LBM (Lean Body Mass) and the rest coming from fat. It will be no different from any other cutting diet, i think this is what you cannot get your head around. I'll break it down below, rough and nice and easy for you.
> 
> ...


Ok so if im 186lbs and have a 14% bf my lbm is 176 so protein is 29g x6 and fats 28g x 6 is this too much per day or just right ? As i was having 18g fats per meal and 30g protein


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## Virtus (Apr 30, 2007)

Robbyg said:


> Ok so if im 186lbs and have a 14% bf my lbm is 176 so protein is 29g x6 and fats 28g x 6 is this too much per day or just right ? As i was having 18g fats per meal and 30g protein


If i can remember correctly your LBM would be 160lb. I think the calculation is 186(weight) x 0.14(decimal of bf %) = 26lbs fat. Then 186-26=160. I'll double check after, but going off them figures I would do 2100 cals

Protein - 160g (640cals)

Fat 162g (1460cals)

Going off 6 meals it would be about 26g protein per meal and about 27g fat per meal.

But thats just using a basic formula, pm your email address and i'll send you the books which will go into more detail and allow yuou to work it out.


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## Virtus (Apr 30, 2007)

ausbuilt said:


> I first got into keto diets based on BodyOPus, and its from that that I learned about met etc..


BodyOpus is an amazing book, Lyle MacDonalds Ketogenic Book is great as well, the amount of detail he goes into following on from Dan Duchaine is amazing.

Both recommended reads for Keto wannabes


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## Virtus (Apr 30, 2007)

Andrew Jacks said:


> Your ok, you seem to be happy, I think you have had enough attention from me, I was clearly asking another. At least your comment has confirmed that rather than learning about a diet you are simply following what others suggest, which is one of the reasons I started this thread, learning "why" rather than preaching what others say. I have the bible and Jesus feeds the thousands with two fish, beats any keto and remains the most popular book of all time, but not something I suggest everyone should try, so no books for me; I would sooner question the conjecture and learn


haha i can't believe you negged. Do more research before talking about things you have no knowledge about


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## j1mmytt (Jan 12, 2011)

Virtus said:


> If i can remember correctly your LBM would be 160lb. I think the calculation is 186(weight) x 0.14(decimal of bf %) = 26lbs fat. Then 186-26=160. I'll double check after, but going off them figures I would do 2100 cals
> 
> Protein - 160g (640cals)
> 
> ...


ah mate, do mine do mine  im 170lbs and around 10%bf i think {reasonably lean} could you do a quick calorie calculation please?


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## IrishRaver (Feb 4, 2010)

Extremely pointless thread. No useful content, initial OP was a rant and continued to debate over nothing even after being corrected. Why waste our time...


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

IrishRaver said:


> Extremely pointless thread. No useful content, initial OP was a rant and continued to debate over nothing even after being corrected. Why waste our time...


Hey I had a quite day at work, this was fun!


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## Virtus (Apr 30, 2007)

j1mmytt said:


> ah mate, do mine do mine  im 170lbs and around 10%bf i think {reasonably lean} could you do a quick calorie calculation please?


Ok using the same calculation (these could be wrong i am going off memory lol). I'm not using the Harris Benedict Equation which would give you a more detailed calorie requirement.

Pro (153g pro/612cals)

Fat (13g fat/1288 cals)

Divide by 6 meals. Like i said the calories determination is just a quick off my head for cutting, however there is bit more detail to go into.


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## 2004mark (Oct 26, 2013)

IrishRaver said:


> Extremely pointless thread. No useful content, initial OP was a rant and continued to debate over nothing even after being corrected. Why waste our time...


lol, that is what made it so amusing


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

Andrew Jacks said:


> Have you any links to this theory dude, keto is burning fat to give you ketones which replace carbs as energy


Well a ketogenic diet does reduce carbohydrate use for fuel but it doesn't entirely stop it. As far as I'm aware of all cells REQUIRE minimal amounts of both fats and glucose... even if adapted to a particular substrate there's always a minimal need for the other.... and the entire reason carbohydrates are technically considered as non essential nutrients is NOT because the body doesn't need any glucose but because the body can and does make it's own glucose anyway from degraded proteins and dietary amino acids.

As for protein being converted, look up Protein Deamination. Is what happens to all plasma amino acids that are in excess of requirement for other things - they get deaminated in the liver and kidney. This is where the amino acids are split apart into different bits, the nitrogen gets incorporated into uric acid and ammonia and is pee'd away, the other bits get used to form special kinds of ketone or glucose (via a few stages) depending on which amino acid it is. This doesn't just happen when low carb, it happens high carb with excess protein too - is a necessary and unavoidable process to prevent excess nitrogen build up which is toxic.

In carb eating adults blood glucose levels are normally between 65 and 100mg/dl (average about 70), in ketogenic dieters it's normally between 35-50mg/dl. This 35-50mg/dl level of glucose comes in considerable part from deamination of protein... it kinda has to as the amount is in excess of that which the low carbohydrate content of diet could provide.


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## Andrew Jacks (Sep 29, 2010)

Dtlv74 said:


> the entire reason carbohydrates are technically considered as non essential nutrients is NOT because the body doesn't need any glucose but because the body can and does make it's own glucose anyway from degraded proteins and dietary amino acids.


News to me, second lesson of the day.

Ketosis is not a desirable state, it is one which is exploited by bodybuilders, the body believes we are starving all carbs absorbed are used to fuel the brain as it can not use Ketones thus whilst Ketones are present carbs are reserved for the brain


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

Andrew Jacks said:


> News to me, second lesson of the day.
> 
> Ketosis is not a desirable state, it is one which is exploited by bodybuilders, the body believes we are starving all carbs absorbed are used to fuel the brain as it can not use Ketones thus whilst Ketones are present carbs are reserved for the brain


Yeah, about 30-40% of brain cells are entirely glucose dependent. Many immune cells also are dependent upon glucose metabolism, and the liver and muscles cannot function properly without at least maintainig a minimal store of glycogen either.


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## 44_cornishman (Jan 16, 2011)

Not sure how such a sensible comment from the OP has been dragged around.

From the aforementioned Complete Guide For The Dieter And Practitioner

"&#8230;Due to the problems with extended fasting, early nutrition researchers looked for a way to mimic starvation ketosis, while allowing food consumption. Research determined that a diet high in fat, low in carbohydrate and providing the minimal protein needed to sustain growth could maintain starvation ketosis for long periods of time.."

Which means you should be lowering protein during ketosis, particularly shakes. Read this and had to join to correct the myths been posted in forum


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## 2004mark (Oct 26, 2013)

44_cornishman said:


> Not sure how such a sensible comment from the OP has been dragged around.
> 
> From the aforementioned Complete Guide For The Dieter And Practitioner
> 
> ...


Nobody are said you should be on a high protein diet (apart the OP until he changed his tune)... and nobody is saying you should be having any shakes, all have agreed protein from food is better... BUT there is nothing wrong with getting some of your daily protein requirement through shakes if you need to i.e. find it more convenient/cheaper etc.

As Vitus stated you should aim for 1g of protein per lbs of lean body mass, so a 15 stone man with 15% body-fat would require 178.5g of protein per day. 3 shakes could only contain 75g of protein in total, leaving 100g to be consumed through food... tell me, what is wrong with that?


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## Andrew Jacks (Sep 29, 2010)

44_cornishman said:


> Not sure how such a sensible comment from the OP has been dragged around.
> 
> From the aforementioned Complete Guide For The Dieter And Practitioner
> 
> ...


They think they can wind people up making dim comments like the one above, given as the thread is about not supplementing protein shakes whilst on a keto as within my first comment which is here for all to read, we are best to ignore those who have read a few pdfs and think they know everything, my position has never changed, I honestly have not a clue what the inhabitants of lala land are going on about


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## Virtus (Apr 30, 2007)

Andrew Jacks said:


> They think they can wind people up making dim comments like the one above, given as the thread is about not supplementing protein shakes whilst on a keto as within my first comment which is here for all to read, *we are best to ignore those who have read a few pdfs and think they know everything*, my position has never changed, I honestly have not a clue what the inhabitants of lala land are going on about


I've done more than read a few PDF's mate, nice dig though. I've implemented it on numerous occasions over many years and helped others structure there Ketogenic diets. And the reason for reading PDF's has nothing to with basics of ketogenic diets, its to do more with the effects of muscle glycogen when fully depleted and the different options to refill. I offered you ebooks to bring you up to speed (so you stop making stupid comments like 'high meat' diet), but you decided to neg, proves what type of person you are


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## TommyFire (Jul 18, 2010)

ausbuilt said:


> i have to say what I miss MOST during the week on my CKD is ICE CREAM, as its too high in carbs for keto and to high in fat for carbing up :-((
> 
> thankfully SUnday is not training and a food cheat day for me.. so i hang out to have icecream... but i get the feeling to get to 7% I may need to drop my cheat day...


Aus, I have Ben and Jerrys frozen yoghurt to satisfy my ice cream cravings when carbing up (its about 3g fat per 100g). Gotta say the phish food really is nice,i actually prefer it to the full fat version!


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