# Do you eventually lose your gains after a cycle?



## BronchitisMan (Oct 22, 2012)

I've been meaning to start on a testosterone cycle, but I just want to gain 10-15 lbs of muscle (which would be achieved in roughly 2-3 cycles). But what happens when I completely withdraw from testosterone? From what I can tell, your muscle mass is proportional to your testosterone levels (there have been studies where individuals were administered testosterone but didn't work out at all, and yet they gained lean mass).

So if I withdraw, and even if I have a phenomenal PCT and diet, my natural testosterone levels are still going to eventually drop to pre-cycle levels, so in theory I would shrink back. To me, it's pretty useless if I can't get permanent gains.

So am I right in thinking that gains from testosterone cycles are very temporary?


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## bigtommay (Jun 26, 2012)

I read a bit into this recently as i read some posts on here saying the same thing.

I may be wrong and im certainly no expert but what i gathered was that it is possible to hold onto a lot of what you gain as long as you dont surpass your genetic limit.

Some even claim you can slightly increase your genetic limit through aas. No idea if thats true.


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## Big_Idiot (Feb 14, 2012)

Mate theres such a big debate on this; peoples opinions vary. My take on it is simple:

1. If you're *not* past your 'natural genetic limit' even from using AAS, then you could possibly keep most/all your gains with fast recovery, good diet & training etc.

2. If you *are* past your 'natural genetic limit' obviously from using AAS, then you will eventually lose those gains until you're body is near its natural potential.

So to summarise, any gains past you're natural limit as they say....then you'll eventually lose them.

Thats MY OPINION.


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## stone14 (Mar 24, 2005)

If you need steroids to gain it then you will need steroids to keep and maintain it.


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## ItsaSecret (May 28, 2012)

depends how big you are.

and how fast your hormones come back, if u have a grey period where ur depressed with 0 test n stuff then u lose mass lol(or i think i did considering scale weight went down when i crashed, despite continually eating at a surplus)


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## Conscript (Sep 5, 2010)

stone14 said:


> If you need steroids to gain it then you will need steroids to keep and maintain it.


x2

What puts it on, keeps it on!


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## stone14 (Mar 24, 2005)

Your hormones can be stretched out to a certain point but imo not far. Your body/hormones pre -rained will be balanced.

Once you start to force your body to grow past its natural 'happy medium' settings the further out your hormones get stretched out.

I think its acceptable to say you can gain 20-30lb lbm above your natty un-trained weight. I doubt you can go over that tbh but this is jmo.


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## Proteincarb (Oct 12, 2010)

Look at most retired pros. There not mass monsters still. Ronnie Coleman is slowly shrinking.


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## infernal0988 (Jun 16, 2011)

killah said:


> Look at most retired pros. There not mass monsters still. Ronnie Coleman is slowly shrinking.


You hear he`s trying to make a comeback to the olympia stage? Nuckin Futs if you ask me!


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## musio (Jan 25, 2008)

I started a thread for one time cycles asking for pics/experiences. Not many replies but realised that those who gave up BBing after wouldn't be on forums. I'd still like to read the experience of one timers.

There is muscle memory but say you get sick for a month and lose it all, then what? Your body goes back to it's set point.


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## Ragingagain (Sep 4, 2010)

Makes me wonder how much if the year are people that look even half dees on? I do

1 cycle a year 3 month :-/ I think I need more lol

I think personally every cycle adds a couple pounds that will never be lost even if U don't train. Ime


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## bigtommay (Jun 26, 2012)

Surely in the case of ronnie coleman. He had massively surpassed his genetic limit. He's also a lot older not training as hard and on nowhere near the amount of gear he wouldve been on at his peak.

I've personally known 1 guy that ran a cycle and held obto his gains with good diet and pct. However i've seen even more blow it all, mainly through poor diet.


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## marknorthumbria (Oct 1, 2009)

in what timescale? so far after using gear ive bridged with low dose GH (2-4iu a day) and maintained every pound


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## BBaddict (Dec 2, 2008)

Big_Idiot said:


> Mate theres such a big debate on this; peoples opinions vary. My take on it is simple:
> 
> 1. If you're *not* past your 'natural genetic limit' even from using AAS, then you could possibly keep most/all your gains with fast recovery, good diet & training etc.
> 
> ...


I agree,

obviously diet, training and rest will have a huge impact on maintaining your gains and preventing muscle loss when between cycles or whenever your are 'off', but i believe its always going to fall back on genetic potential (at some point) for how much an individual can maintain muscle mass which has been built assisted by AAS past there natural/genetic abilities.

Well explained by Big_Idiot


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## NorthernSoul (Nov 7, 2011)

Eat enough calories to keep your gains after cycle.


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## The Cheese (Sep 22, 2012)

stone14 said:


> If you need steroids to gain it then you will need steroids to keep and maintain it.


Leads to a question though: How many people actually need steroids for gains? I'd put good money down that the vast majority (99%) don't and could make gains without them if they had the time, the patience and the commitment (I count myself in the 99%). Logically, that leads onto the fact that most people aren't going over their genetic limit unless they run a lot of cycles. They may bulk up well beyond their starting point as a natural but it's doubtful that even with juice, they get to their limit. As we all know, steroids aren't a magic pill - you still need everything else on point just to get moderate results.

Which means, with the correct regime, the majority of first time users (or those who've only run a couple of cycles) should be able to keep those gains.


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## Lew1s (Feb 3, 2012)

i've not been gym in around 2-3 months due to work commitments, lost around 7lbs but don't look all that different and I look leaner than ever. I literally stopped around 2 weeks after I finished the pct of my last cycle....after dropping the water and coming off I was around 13 and a half st now i'm sitting at 13...I was 12 and a half before my last cycle....so i've kept half a stone worth of gains without even going gym and eating pretty **** aswell. I'd go with the natural limit theory more than anything.


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## Smitch (Dec 29, 2008)

BronchitisMan said:


> I've been meaning to start on a testosterone cycle, but I just want to gain 10-15 lbs of muscle (which would be achieved in roughly 2-3 cycles). But what happens when I completely withdraw from testosterone? From what I can tell, your muscle mass is proportional to your testosterone levels (there have been studies where individuals were administered testosterone but didn't work out at all, and yet they gained lean mass).
> 
> So if I withdraw, and even if I have a phenomenal PCT and diet, my natural testosterone levels are still going to eventually drop to pre-cycle levels, so in theory I would shrink back. To me, it's pretty useless if I can't get permanent gains.
> 
> So am I right in thinking that gains from testosterone cycles are very temporary?


Why would you need steroids to gain 10-15 lbs?

Serious question, that's 4.5 - 7.5 KG's so not a huge amount of weight.

Unless you've hit a plateau might be worth haing a rethink.


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## Hoddsy (Oct 9, 2008)

Its been nearly 4 months since my last cycle and ive only lost a little weight and retained nearly all my strength gains i made


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## stone14 (Mar 24, 2005)

The Cheese said:


> Leads to a question though: How many people actually need steroids for gains? I'd put good money down that the vast majority (99%) don't and could make gains without them if they had the time, the patience and the commitment (I count myself in the 99%). Logically, that leads onto the fact that most people aren't going over their genetic limit unless they run a lot of cycles. They may bulk up well beyond their starting point as a natural but it's doubtful that even with juice, they get to their limit. As we all know, steroids aren't a magic pill - you still need everything else on point just to get moderate results.
> 
> Which means, with the correct regime, the majority of first time users (or those who've only run a couple of cycles) should be able to keep those gains.


yeh i agree since your 1st cycle you can gain 25-30lb, imo thats about as much as a natty will gain, so to gain that from 1 cycle imo is keepable, but over than imo you will slowly loose it, the minute natty hormone levels only stretch so far.

you cant start as a 10st natty get to 14st+ and maintain it as a natty imo, not unless you were underweight to start with. 1-2st yeh then acceptable imo not 4-5st+

your hormones are like an elastic band, the further you stretch them out and the bigger you force yourself to grow, the faster in reverse they will go given the chance.

this is why obese people with very little work can shed stones of fat but the closer you get to your bodies happy medium the harder it is to loose, and why we have to hammer there cardio to get below your bodies happy medium range.

are bodies as an un-trained natty is how it wants to be, its perfectly tuned to be like that, it doesnt want to grow, we want it to grow to look/ feel better. humans genetics/ evolution in general prefer a lean physique build for endurance not an over developed one which has no use other than apperance and power so very little use for survival in the long run.


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## Proteincarb (Oct 12, 2010)

chilisi said:


> Of course your going to lose gains eventually. Even with a good diet. Nitrogen retention/Protein synthesis is through the roof on AAS, to sustain and grow new fibres. Without AAS you won't have enough testosterone to sustain that.
> 
> So of course the likes of Ronnie Coleman or whoever will shrink. It must be hard work to eat the amount of cals he had to stay in mr Olympia condition. I very much doubt he's eating like he did to win his titles.
> 
> You also have to consider the loss of water in your muscles, which gives you that pumped look all the time.


True, whats that water pumped look down to? i need that looks


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## infernal0988 (Jun 16, 2011)

Im afraid if you want to stay big or be as big as you want to be then your gonna have to stay on steroids for life. You go off you loose some some you go on again to gain more then loose some again. You want to be bigger then your bodies natural limit ? Then youv gotta stay on its as simple as that . Well its my opinion anyway.


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## benki11 (Sep 17, 2010)

infernal0988 said:


> Im afraid if you want to stay big or be as big as you want to be then your gonna have to stay on steroids for life. You go off you loose some some you go on again to gain more then loose some again. You want to be bigger then your bodies natural limit ? Then youv gotta stay on its as simple as that . Well its my opinion anyway.


^^^^^^^^^^^ this ^^^^^^^^^^^


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## BigTrev (Mar 16, 2008)

If you loss all your gains after aas then your diet and pct hasnt been right at all.

Expect to loss between 5lb to 10lb normally but noway should you loss it all.

Thats why hcg,,Ai and serms are a must in all cycles plus maintaining a good diet


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## airkyd (Jun 9, 2011)

if people are loose alot of their size then how is your strength being affected after cycle ?


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## sprayer (Nov 8, 2012)

Interesting discussion I hear a lot of guys on forums comment you are only 200lbs not even close to your genetic limit etc..

Well I don't know, if you have come from 167lbs after years of training what are they expecting you to get to?? I mean Arnold was 230-240 on stage and juiced to the max. So I would not expect any natural to get to that level. So that is 40lbs difference and it is attributed to aas use. That's why I don't understand the comments that a person is too small at 200 to think about roids, do you have to be 230 natural haha...

People don't realise we are not all blessed with good hormone levels (my case). I consider myself weak but when I see guys in the gym on juice lifting the same or less it makes me feel better that maybe my ****ty strength is not that ****ty after all.

If your test levels are naturally higher I think you are in a better position to keep more of your gains, well so I think anyway. If your testosterone levels are that of a 80 year old it is not helping your cause one bit.

I think you could possibly keep some of the gains long term since the body might accomodate it.

Would love to hear from people who stopped aas use and then trained naturally if they were ever able to keep mass above base line values, I would assume yes if they kept training and diet was good.

I think though natural hormone levels play a major factor.


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## Dan 45 (Aug 16, 2012)

Yes.


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## need2bodybuild (May 11, 2011)

Lol at the people saying if you keep training and diet on point you will keep all gains!


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## blue0eyes0 (Apr 11, 2011)

to the people who are saying you cant hold onto gains made from aas forever with natty test..........skeletal muscle is skeletal muscle. If you went from 12 to 14 stone natural you could keep the 14 stone. If you use aas to go from 12 to 14 why all of a sudden can the body not hold onto the 14 stone with natty test? if your past genetic potential then yeah that makes sense, but if it is actually skeletal muscle being built during an aas cycle in theory it should be as permanent as skeletal muscle gained natty (which is basically permanent provided you continue to train, eat and sleep well)


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## Mingster (Mar 25, 2011)

It's like anything. If you practice any skill you will get better at it. If you stop practising your ability will lessen. You will, however, retain the knowledge on how to get skilled again


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## pottsyislash09 (Oct 29, 2012)

stone14 said:


> Your hormones can be stretched out to a certain point but imo not far. Your body/hormones pre -rained will be balanced.
> 
> Once you start to force your body to grow past its natural 'happy medium' settings the further out your hormones get stretched out.
> 
> I think its acceptable to say you can gain 20-30lb lbm above your natty un-trained weight. I doubt you can go over that tbh but this is jmo.


so is it plausible to think that i will keep most of my gains after 4 months off for recovery time before next cycle? or will i lose them even if i train hard and eat enough etc?

i would hate to think i do a cycle and with my time off i lose what i gained on the cycle because in essence it makes cycling bloody pointless?


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## Natty.Solider (May 4, 2012)

stone14 said:


> *yeh i agree since your 1st cycle you can gain 25-30lb, imo thats about as much as a natty will gain, so to gain that from 1 cycle imo is keepable, but over than imo you will slowly loose it, the minute natty hormone levels only stretch so far.*
> 
> *
> *
> ...


That depends a lot on height id say. I started at 10.5st un-trained but I was very very thin. Im 17.2 stone now or 109kg. Bulking without being a fat cnut to 115kg which is just over 18 stone. I think 4-5 stone above un-trained is do-able easily. I wasnt shredded at 10.5, maybe 12% just had no muscle mass. I think I would hit 15 stone at 12% at the moment if I cut down, maybe more. The point of this Is that you can still be a bigger guy naturally. You wont be BB big, no way... but definitely sizeable. I sometimes train with an ed powerlifter/ bber and he is still very bulky tho is clean from gear now. Strength is no where near what it was nor his condition, but he still benches 140kg for reps and looks better than many who are on gear and looks better than every one of the social gear users.


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## blue0eyes0 (Apr 11, 2011)

you went from 10.5 st to 18 natty?


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## LutherLee (Apr 30, 2010)

BronchitisMan said:


> I've been meaning to start on a testosterone cycle, but I just want to gain 10-15 lbs of muscle (which would be achieved in roughly 2-3 cycles). But what happens when I completely withdraw from testosterone? From what I can tell, your muscle mass is proportional to your testosterone levels (there have been studies where individuals were administered testosterone but didn't work out at all, and yet they gained lean mass).
> 
> So if I withdraw, and even if I have a phenomenal PCT and diet, my natural testosterone levels are still going to eventually drop to pre-cycle levels, so in theory I would shrink back. To me, it's pretty useless if I can't get permanent gains.
> 
> So am I right in thinking that gains from testosterone cycles are very temporary?


I doubt you'll be anywhere near your natural limit so if your diet is correct you should be able to keep it.

if you need steroids to get it you'll need steroids to keep it is fair enough but if your not at your natural limit then you don't need steroids as such, just getting a helping hand from them.


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## benki11 (Sep 17, 2010)

need2bodybuild said:


> Lol at the people saying if you keep training and diet on point you will keep all gains!


You can keep some but not all and no matter your training and diet you ll still lose some especially strenght gains!!

But again it depens on yours genetic limit!


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## Pandy (Jul 14, 2012)

Really interesting topic!

I'm currently on day 11 of PCT following my 1st 12 week cycle. And I've already lost a couple of kg (which must have been water).

I'm confident that once all the water is off, I'll still have a good 8kg of mass that I can keep hold of (well I better do otherwise I'm packing my bag and calling it a day!! :laugh: )



> i would hate to think i do a cycle and with my time off i lose what i gained on the cycle because in essence it makes cycling bloody pointless?


I'm sure someone else more experienced will confirm this, but my understanding is you're building each time. So when you start cycle number 2, you're already bigger than when you started your first cycle. And starting cycle 3, you'll be a bit bigger again than before you started cycle 2 etc..........


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## stone14 (Mar 24, 2005)

Natty.Solider said:


> That depends a lot on height id say. I started at 10.5st un-trained but I was very very thin. Im 17.2 stone now or 109kg. Bulking without being a fat cnut to 115kg which is just over 18 stone. I think 4-5 stone above un-trained is do-able easily. I wasnt shredded at 10.5, maybe 12% just had no muscle mass. I think I would hit 15 stone at 12% at the moment if I cut down, maybe more. The point of this Is that you can still be a bigger guy naturally. You wont be BB big, no way... but definitely sizeable. I sometimes train with an ed powerlifter/ bber and he is still very bulky tho is clean from gear now. Strength is no where near what it was nor his condition, but he still benches 140kg for reps and looks better than many who are on gear and looks better than every one of the social gear users.


you must have been underweight before training then? an 8stone gain is like a who extra person, if you had the hormones in you naturally to hold another 8 stone mass then you would be naturally closer to 18 stone not 10.5stone. you must have amazing world breaking genetic's for your 10.5st to be the correct weight for you and yet still piled on another 8stone as a natty.

if you can gain all that natty then just think what you could gain on aas as a pro-bber.


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## Zorrin (Sep 24, 2010)

To keep gains, you need to keep training, and keep your own balls working.

That's why I do four 6-week cycles a year, with HCG and four full PCTs. I've recovered in a week of PCT after a 42 day cycle with HCG. Also, I'm never more than 7 weeks away from my next cycle, or my last one.

Finally, I think DHT gains last longest, followed by 19-nors (tren and nandrolone), followed by test, followed by estrogeny dianabol-type things.

If you can keep muscle for a year, you can keep it forever. Don't go 2 months without training when you're not on AAS.

I try to keep myself interested and training. 6 weeks of test prop and steroids is interesting. Then 3 weeks of PCT science, which is interesting. Then a month of non-hormonal supplements, which I try to be interested in. Then its time for another 6 weeker!. That's how I get through.

Next year, I'm thinking of doing four cycles, with growth hormone in between. I know growth works better the longer you're on it, but I just need something to keep me focused and engaged between cycles.


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## Bull Terrier (May 14, 2012)

Zorrin said:


> To keep gains, you need to keep training, and keep your own balls working.
> 
> That's why I do four 6-week cycles a year, with HCG and four full PCTs. I've recovered in a week of PCT after a 42 day cycle with HCG. Also, *I'm never more than 7 weeks away from my next cycle,* or my last one.
> 
> ...


Maybe that's why you manage to hang onto your gains...


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## Moonbeam (Jul 20, 2011)

Basically if you keep lifting and eating the same as on cycle then I dont see why not. But will be difficult. Eventually you will loose it all one day so just enjoy it for now


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## k3z (Oct 17, 2007)

bollox, course you can keep a high percentage of the gains if you continue to train and eat. Its not going to get chewed up by your bones if you're training and hence telling your brain you need the muscle. the sceptics seem to be the ones who blast/cruise and barely give themselves a chance at natural training. 2 steps forward, 1 step back imo


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## Lew1s (Feb 3, 2012)

lol. notice how it's all the nattys claiming that they think its possible to keep the majority of your gains


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## blue0eyes0 (Apr 11, 2011)

chilsi did you read what i said earlier? why do you think it is so difficult to hold onto aas muscle gains with natty test? like i said earlier say there is a guy weighing 12 stone and his genetic limit is say 16 stone. He could train for 8 years natural and get to 16 stone and hold onto his gains natural yes? so say he uses aas and gets to 16 stone in 2 years, why cant his natty test then sustain that muscle as he would have in the first scenario?


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## jstarcarr (Aug 6, 2010)

I never lose muscle after a cycle , most I lose is 1-2kg in water.


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## stone14 (Mar 24, 2005)

Building muscle on aas is the easy part, your body building nerve endings and more cappileries to keep it alive takes longer, aas does not effect this. Also you hormones only stretch out so far, once your behond there capabilites no amount of food and training will keep those gains behond this point. People wouldn't need to run aas for decades to keep there gain if they didn't need aas to keep it, you could run a few cycle for a couple years and come off. But it don't work like that.

You train be cause you want to be bigger better etc etc not because you need to be and not because your brain wants you to be like that, if it did then you already would be. Your forcing your body to grow and develop in a way it in realy doesn't want to.

Weight training is seen as a threat to by your brain, all it know is the damage your bodies taking and this is why you grow to prevent further damage and increase chances of survival., if you stop training and feeing these gain you will loose then your body won't need all that extra mass. But your body also has a limited amount of hormones, and your body will remove excess muscle it can't hold onto rather than increase all your hormones just dor the sake of some muscle mass which it doesn't and didn't want in the 1st place.

You can keep your gains to a certain point but more will use aas on a regular basis and grow behond there bodies ability to adjust to it. Anyone who's ran aas for years then came off and turned total natty will tell you if you need aas to gain it then you need aas to keep it long term.


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## blue0eyes0 (Apr 11, 2011)

stone 14, so in your opinion someone who is still below their genetic potential could not keep their aas gains when they turn natty?


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## stone14 (Mar 24, 2005)

Homeostasis can take 9-12month for the bosy to adjust and 'accept' new changes such as weight gain or weight loss and most are back on cycle long before 9-12month so they never give there body a change to adjust and accept the new weight and condition with there natural hormones long enough. This is why its harder to keep your gains since aslong as your on and off aas your not giving your body long enough to re-tune to the weight be it weight gain or weight loss.

If your someone wanting to run aas to make realistic keepable gains them imo 1moderate cycle per year is for you this give you long enough off so your body can adjust and accept the gains on its own accord not because its forced to with repreated aas use.,

If you want to progress behond and to the max then multi cycles or staying on is for you. But if you never give you body a chance to return to full homeotasis then if it can't gain that balance then how do you expect it to keep your gains.

This is the difrence between the two classes 'imature muscle' and 'mature muscle'

Its not just about muscle its about your body adjusting to it accepting that its there and by growing a new full network of nerves and blood supply to keep it alive and make it part of you long term. Other wise its just imature muscle 'dead weight- that isn't needed and is unwanted and will be removes soon as you slip up and the brain has a chance to bin it.


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## davesays (Aug 9, 2012)

marknorthumbria said:


> in what timescale? so far after using gear ive bridged with low dose GH (2-4iu a day) and maintained every pound


How you afford that mate? You a doctor? 

I hear this debate all the time, and always laugh when I hear people saying if you take steroids you'll just lose it all when you come off anyway. But these people fail to realise that if you stop training even as a natural you'll lose all your gains anyway. Just train hard, eat right, and do all the things you did on cycle to get to that size and you should keep a good deal of it.


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## stone14 (Mar 24, 2005)

blue0eyes0 said:


> stone 14, so in your opinion someone who is still below their genetic potential could not keep their aas gains when they turn natty?


I started 10st ectomorph, narrow frame, small appetite with high metabolism low bf and low lbm, couldn't gain weight purely because imo I couldn't eat enough for long enough to make any sort of decent gains and to keep them long term, I'm up 4.5stone and should be over than when I start my new year bulk.

My weight always yo-yo's now I'm a few stone above my weight as a natural, I think iv got very poor genetics to be a bber, I know I will loose my weight if I came off and that's down to my own experience as iv went along.

Everytime I come of sooner or later the weight slowly starts to drop. This is why I come to the decision to just cut the pct and recovery out and run trt to bridge cycles. My weight and strength has maintained fine since. I do alont of bjj/mma aswell so my goal isn't to be huge but to just maintain and improve my condition 15st lean is the max I want to be weight wise.

If you can keep your weight etc as a natty then that's great.

But at the end of the day you need to think that what your mind wants and what your brain wants to keep you alive can be 2 totally difrent things and in the weight training world they are worlds apart. Your brains there to keep you alive and health not make you look good


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## stone14 (Mar 24, 2005)

I can eat 5000cals ed as a natty and not put weight on at 200lb, for along time I struggles to get over 4000cals, I think at a push I could hit 6000cal ed now but that's a lot of food imo for someone my weight compared to some of the eary gainers some guys are 18stone and bulk on 3000cals ed.

So imo I need then extra kick in favour of muscle growth from aas to grow. I just can't get the amount of food I need to grow into me without assistance compared to some other guys. So staying on works for me, if I though I could keep the weight coming off then I wouldn't stay on. But time and experience over the years pritty much garantee's I won't maintain my gains as a natty. Wish I could but I can't lol


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## blue0eyes0 (Apr 11, 2011)

well if we go by what your saying then if i get to 15 stone and then maintain natty than i will have all the time in the world for my body to adjust to that weight. On the other hand if my body cant maintain 15 stone natty until new network is in place then by the time that 10 months network adaption has happened ive lost the gains? in this case wouldnt it be better to stay on aas for 10 months and maintain 15 stone so that the body can have the time to grow the network?


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## LutherLee (Apr 30, 2010)

Lew1s said:


> lol. notice how it's all the nattys claiming that they think its possible to keep the majority of your gains


not so!


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## stone14 (Mar 24, 2005)

blue0eyes0 said:


> well if we go by what your saying then if i get to 15 stone and then maintain natty than i will have all the time in the world for my body to adjust to that weight. On the other hand if my body cant maintain 15 stone natty until new network is in place then by the time that 10 months network adaption has happened ive lost the gains? in this case wouldnt it be better to stay on aas for 10 months and maintain 15 stone so that the body can have the time to grow the network?


Yes you could do in theory, aslong as your hormones can hold the weight also.

You can have the natty hormones but if the roads arnt build then it will be lost if its getting no supplies, if you stay on aas and the roads are build but don't have the natty hormones to maintain your mass then it will be lost once you come off aas. In theory. Doing a wide range of training will improve the chances of keeping new gains Ie: cns training will improve nerve response and help build new nerve networks and higher end reps 10-20+rep sets will improve cv and oxygen use in the muscle which will increase capileries.

So were muscle hyptrophy forces muscle growth, cns training (low reps) will force nerve growth responce/signals, and muscle endurance training (high reps) will force capilery growth/ networks since your forcing that muscle to demand better oxygen use so a better blood supply will give the muscle more oxygen.

So its realy down to training, food and natty hormones, fortunatly we can adjust are diet/calorie intake and training intensit/ volume etc but unfortunatly we can't increase are natty hormones, that is out of are hands. we can only use synthetic hormones (peds/ aas). So imo its the natty hormone limitation side of it which will ultimatly be are downfall in maintaining gains.


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## Lew1s (Feb 3, 2012)

LutherLee said:


> not so!


let me word it better; these people are just giving it the good diet, training and rest nonsense. Once you go above your natural limit, which really isn't that much for alot of people that's the reality, you will eventually revert there without gear use again.


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## musio (Jan 25, 2008)

You can build muscle as a natty and look great - judging by some of the pictures on the natty forums here, some look better then those on steroids. I'm talking aesthetic magazine cover look, not monster look. If steroids get you over that edge to get there and maintain it faster then great. Not everybody has the genetics to get to a really good natty state as the body is constantly fighting itself in simple terms as stone said above. When natty dieting, i think it was Aus who said first thing to come off is muscle...and if you're a natty and spend years trying to put minimal muscle on, you'll know it's an uphill battle.

I think it comes down to genetics and expectations.

If you want to look monster size, you'll need to run multiple and be 'on' most of the time. If you want to just look bigger and more defined than the average bear, then it could be worthwhile getting boosts while you can..

I look at it like three cars in a race.

Two can both hit the nitro speed button and be ahead of the natty car.

The one that keeps hitting the nitro is ahead of the natty car and ahead of the car who's done the nitro once...but he has to keep hitting it to stay ahead

Sorry, just saw fast and furious...


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## k3z (Oct 17, 2007)

musio said:


> You can build muscle as a natty and look great - judging by some of the pictures on the natty forums here, some look better then those on steroids. I'm talking aesthetic magazine cover look, not monster look. If steroids get you over that edge to get there and maintain it faster then great. Not everybody has the genetics to get to a really good natty state as the body is constantly fighting itself in simple terms as stone said above. When natty dieting, i think it was Aus who said first thing to come off is muscle...and if you're a natty and spend years trying to put minimal muscle on, you'll know it's an uphill battle.
> 
> I think it comes down to genetics and expectations.
> 
> ...


Good post


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## LutherLee (Apr 30, 2010)

Lew1s said:


> let me word it better; these people are just giving it the good diet, training and rest nonsense. Once you go above your natural limit, which really isn't that much for alot of people that's the reality, you will eventually revert there without gear use again.


since when is the natural limit for most people not very high? A new trainer could put an extra 30 pounds on over a few years and i'd say thats a good return. Good diet and training correctly will help people retain a lot of extra muscle, even after aas use. Yes everyone will shrink back to there natural limit but you have to get there 1st, Which imo would take a while to hit.

The reason i quoted you with Not so! is because i to was saying about diet and training n im defo not an aas virgin


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## PHMG (Jun 15, 2010)

All muscle is borrowed. It will come off eventually if we take things out of the equation.

you gain it naturally and stop training, you shrink.

you gain it naturally, then bump it up with gear, stop the gear, shrink back. You might not shrink right back to normal natural size though.

I know after being of gear for 16 weeks, i was still 95kg and pretty lean (when i started gear, i was about 83kg and fat).


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## LutherLee (Apr 30, 2010)

PowerHouseMcGru said:


> All muscle is borrowed. *It will come off eventually if we take things out of the equation*.
> 
> you gain it naturally and stop training, you shrink.
> 
> ...


Thing is, there are lot of different equations lol.


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## loftus (Mar 9, 2012)

bigtommay said:


> I read a bit into this recently as i read some posts on here saying the same thing.
> 
> I may be wrong and im certainly no expert but what i gathered was that it is possible to hold onto a lot of what you gain as long as you dont surpass your genetic limit.
> 
> Some even claim you can slightly increase your genetic limit through aas. No idea if thats true.


thats how its worked for me over 30 years of training consistantly!!


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## Natty.Solider (May 4, 2012)

stone14 said:


> you must have been underweight before training then? an 8stone gain is like a who extra person, if you had the hormones in you naturally to hold another 8 stone mass then you would be naturally closer to 18 stone not 10.5stone. you must have amazing world breaking genetic's for your 10.5st to be the correct weight for you and yet still piled on another 8stone as a natty.
> 
> if you can gain all that natty then just think what you could gain on aas as a pro-bber.


More like a 6-7 stone gain I was underweight I used to get called anorexic. Yeah I'm an extra person defiantly! Ive just been consistent with my eating and lifting. Been tempted by gear so many times but managed to stay natty as Im not sure its me. Been getting some good comments recently, might step my game up and try to make it into the naturals in the next year or two.


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## stone14 (Mar 24, 2005)

Natty.Solider said:


> More like a 6-7 stone gain I was underweight I used to get called anorexic. Yeah I'm an extra person defiantly! Ive just been consistent with my eating and lifting. Been tempted by gear so many times but managed to stay natty as Im not sure its me. Been getting some good comments recently, might step my game up and try to make it into the naturals in the next year or two.


cool mate, i think if you wanted to take the bber route with aas then you will do very well imo, 18st natty and you look quite lean in your avi. you dont have a belly anyway lol. you could be fake tanned up on stage with a thong on before you know it lol.


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## blue0eyes0 (Apr 11, 2011)

i really hope i keep my gains this cycle. the first cycle i did i lost everything. But i did the worse things that i possibly could have....gf and i split so...stress, no pct, no gym, little food, drunk every night for a month. We got back together after a month, i guess by this time i had lost most of the 16lbs i gained and the rest i think came off soon after (as i didnt go back to the gym). Started back at the gym 4 weeks ago and gained 15 lbs back already so im 14st 3. Im going to do everything right this time and try and keep most of my gains


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## Natty.Solider (May 4, 2012)

stone14 said:


> cool mate, i think if you wanted to take the bber route with aas then you will do very well imo, 18st natty and you look quite lean in your avi. you dont have a belly anyway lol. you could be fake tanned up on stage with a thong on before you know it lol.


 :lol: . cheers pal, not 18st yet, 17.2st last time I weighed in, about 15%


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## LutherLee (Apr 30, 2010)

blue0eyes0 said:


> i really hope i keep my gains this cycle. the first cycle i did i lost everything. But i did the worse things that i possibly could have....gf and i split so...stress, no pct, no gym, little food, drunk every night for a month. We got back together after a month, i guess by this time i had lost most of the 16lbs i gained and the rest i think came off soon after (as i didnt go back to the gym). Started back at the gym 4 weeks ago and gained 15 lbs back already so im 14st 3. Im going to do everything right this time and try and keep most of my gains


When your cycle ends the real work starts lol


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## musio (Jan 25, 2008)

this might be a good read Muscle memory: Scientific fact or bodybuilding fantasy? By Jose Antonio Ph.Dhttp://community.myprotein.com/content/muscle-memory-scientific-fact-bodybuilding-fantasy-jose-antonio-ph-d-1259/


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## stone14 (Mar 24, 2005)

LutherLee said:


> When your cycle ends the real work starts lol


totally agree


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## stone14 (Mar 24, 2005)

blue0eyes0 said:


> i really hope i keep my gains this cycle. the first cycle i did i lost everything. But i did the worse things that i possibly could have....gf and i split so...stress, no pct, no gym, little food, drunk every night for a month. We got back together after a month, i guess by this time i had lost most of the 16lbs i gained and the rest i think came off soon after (as i didnt go back to the gym). Started back at the gym 4 weeks ago and gained 15 lbs back already so im 14st 3. Im going to do everything right this time and try and keep most of my gains


defo the stress mate, when i split with my lass i lost a stone in 1 week from not eating, stress kills my appetite.


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## nlr (Oct 18, 2009)

gh15 says you can't maintain 200-225lbs 7-10% @ 5'11 without using hormones :confused1:


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## Wiseman7 (Oct 24, 2012)

Weight actually increase after a 10 week cycle, instead of eating meals/snacks 6 times a day I was eating 10 times and waking up at 4am coz my body was telling me to eat.


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## LutherLee (Apr 30, 2010)

Wiseman7 said:


> Weight actually increase after a 10 week cycle, instead of eating meals/snacks 6 times a day I was eating 10 times and waking up at 4am coz my body was telling me to eat.


you must be in tune with your body then lol, f*ck wakin up at 4 to feed. My body would have to wait. Did you not expect to gain weight after 10 weeks?


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## Wiseman7 (Oct 24, 2012)

Yes I expected to gain but it was crazy couldn't stop eating mate


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## blue0eyes0 (Apr 11, 2011)

i had posted previously on this thread a few pages back about how i lost everything last cycle through personal issues (most likely) and how i am now on my 2nd cycle. I did my last jab 6 weeks ago (tri test). I lost 2lbs around 2 and a half weeks after final jab and have maintained weight and size since then. I feel recovered already and testes much larger already. I have gained about a stone from a 7 week cycle. week 1-5 t-bol, week 1-7 tri test. (cut it 3 weeks short). 

ah no pct either, i am 27 years old, started training at 21, 6ft 3, 11 stone, now just over 14 at 9-10% bf in case anyone wondered


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