# 20% bf can i still bulk?



## E.Swales

I'm 6'1" weigh 180lbs I don't class myself as overweight but my bf is 20% I want to bulk up and am taking in about 3200kcals. I've read somewhere that if you have 20% bf you're better off cutting, I haven't got much shape to cut. Am i still able to bulk?


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## BIG BUCK

U can do whatever u want! There's no rules

But if I were u I'd do a very clean bulk, anything over 20% bf ain't pretty


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## JimboSlice1436114820

Yes


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## MXD

NO.

Get your abs back, or full stop get them.

Then do as you please.


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## miguelmolez

Up to you, you will put more fat on as well as muscle. I would personally cut first.


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## TG123

MXD said:


> NO.
> 
> Get your abs back, or full stop get them.
> 
> Then do as you please.


fcuk abs

get hench!


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## MXD

TG123 said:


> fcuk abs
> 
> get hench!


He's just going to get fatter.

More fat = less calories that go into muscle growth and more into fat.

He needs to get insulin sensitive again.

Thus being lean.

No one should be over 15% never mind 20%

If you are over or near 20% and under 13 stone you're a fat $hit that needs a diet.

End of story.


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## Fat

Plus when you create fat cells its there permanently so you will only be able to empty them meaning they're easier to fill up :crying:


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## ausbuilt

MXD said:


> NO.
> 
> Get your abs back, or full stop get them.
> 
> Then do as you please.


absolutely. At 20% bf you're whats called a FAT F**Ker... why would you bulk from there?

Look i get it, at your height, you're not that heavy, so not much muscle, and whats there is pretty loose and flabby. I know you want muscle, but really, if you bulk people won't see any muscle, you'll just look bigger and fatter..

as MXD said, cut until you see your abs (under 10%, prob closer to 8%) then bulk, but never go over 12%..


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## ausbuilt

TG123 said:


> fcuk abs
> 
> get hench!


at 20%+ BF you cant see any separation in the delts, or pec/delt tie in, or in the quads. You have love handles.. how is that HENCH?? LMAO



MXD said:


> He's just going to get fatter.
> 
> More fat = less calories that go into muscle growth and more into fat.
> 
> He needs to get insulin sensitive again.
> 
> Thus being lean.
> 
> No one should be over 15% never mind 20%
> 
> If you are over or near 20% and under 13 stone you're a fat $hit that needs a diet.
> 
> End of story.


x2

Beat me to it...


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## miguelmolez

Also sounds like your a noob, so you will actually gain a little muscle while cutting.


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## E.Swales

I am clean bulking but would like to add some muscle as i class myself as skinny even with 20% bf. Is it possible to gain muscle and lose bf?


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## yannyboy

How do you know your bodyfat is 20%?


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## Gary29

E.Swales said:


> I am clean bulking but would like to add some muscle as i class myself as skinny even with 20% bf. Is it possible to gain muscle and lose bf?


Post a pic, will be a better judge for people to advise you on how best to achieve your goals.

If you're just starting out lifting, then to some degree, you may lose some body fat and put on muscle at the same time, but generally, if you've been lifting for some time then you can only do one or the other.


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## E.Swales

miguelmolez said:


> Also sounds like your a noob, so you will actually gain a little muscle while cutting.


Yes I'm a noob I've only been lifting for a couple of weeks.


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## ausbuilt

E.Swales said:


> I am clean bulking but would like to add some muscle as i class myself as skinny even with 20% bf. Is it possible to gain muscle and lose bf?


bulk, even "clean" is excess cals, and you will put fat on.

It is possible to loose BF and gain muscle, but it takes a substantial amount of drugs (not just AAS).

The easier way, is cut for 8 weeks, then bulk for 6 weeks, and then repeat a few times..


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## E.Swales

yannyboy said:


> How do you know your bodyfat is 20%?


Electric scales


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## yannyboy

E.Swales said:


> Electric scales


That's probably one of the most inaccurate ways to measure it!

My scales said I was about 20+% in my avi pic, lol


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## E.Swales

Gary29 said:


> Post a pic, will be a better judge for people to advise you on how best to achieve your goals.
> 
> If you're just starting out lifting, then to some degree, you may lose some body fat and put on muscle at the same time, but generally, if you've been lifting for some time then you can only do one or the other.


Will post a pic when I finish work


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## E.Swales

yannyboy said:


> That's probably one of the most inaccurate ways to measure it!
> 
> My scales said I was about 20+% in my avi pic, lol


Ha ha what's the other way apart from calipers?


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## MXD

ausbuilt said:


> bulk, even "clean" is excess cals, and you will put fat on.
> 
> It is possible to loose BF and gain muscle, but it takes a substantial amount of drugs (not just AAS).
> 
> The easier way, is cut for 8 weeks, then bulk for 6 weeks, and then repeat a few times..


I've trained clients n zero peds and had them gain muscle and burn fat at the same time. Total recomp for 15%bf to 10% and stayed the same weight.

Drugs are over emphasised. The right training and nutrition goes one hell of a long way..


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## Need2Grow

If you are new you will easily gain some lean mass while cutting 

If I were you, I would eat at a small calorie deficit and aim for a recomp, so cut fat and build muscle at the same time


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## ausbuilt

E.Swales said:


> Electric scales


oh dear, these are wildly inaccurate. At least get a pinch test at the gym



yannyboy said:


> That's probably one of the most inaccurate ways to measure it!
> 
> My scales said I was about 20+% in my avi pic, lol


ditto, according to the Tanita electric scales, in my AVI i was 34.5% BF...


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## GShock

IMO cut... it's hard to feel yourself shrinking because at your hight most people would see you as a big Fukcer, but cut and see what's under the fat, im cutting and worried to fcku that im looking smaller, but im starting to see veins and separation so it's all good, use the mirror instead of the scales...


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## Breda

As said... Recomp


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## Incredible Bulk

do what makes you happy!

fck the abs...

i started at 14 stone.... bulked to 19 stone... went past the 20% bf barrier and kinda kept on pushing.

but hell, got me some cracking results.

1st cut was a b1tch but at least i had something to cut back down to and show off.

april 2008



jan 2009



fatty wanna donut?

then cut for my first show... had to drop 70lbs mind you but all part of the learning progress.


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## Wardy211436114751

MXD said:


> More fat = less calories that go into muscle growth and more into fat.
> 
> He needs to get insulin sensitive again.
> 
> Thus being lean.


I'm interested in this bit... Never heard of this? Most strongmen are 20%+ bf and never cut but continue to get stronger and put on muscle. I always thought staying leanish during bulks was more a choice and because its easier having less fat to cut when you do decide to cut rather than any reason to do with putting on muscle during the bulk.


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## Fat

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-gain/calorie-partitioning-part-1.html

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/uncategorized/calorie-partitioning-part-2.html


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## The-Big-One

Ive been there done it at the beginning of my training. I had a bad diet gained 5 stone like a pleb to 21 stone, realised i dont want to look like a fat version of a strong man and cut for 9 months and atm im 16 stone going down to 15 and then im stopping


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## GolfDelta

The-Big-One said:


> Ive been there done it at the beginning of my training. I had a bad diet gained 5 stone like a pleb to 21 stone, realised i dont want to look like a fat version of a strong man and cut for 9 months and atm im 16 stone going down to 15 and then im stopping


I was exactly the same,I just bulked and bulked and bulked until I was a fat 18 stone.I am down to 15 stone 7 now and much happier with how I look,plan to cut to 10% then lean bulk later in the year.


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## Greyphantom

I fvcking love Incredible Bulk and all those here who said bulk away... as for the hmmm sorry cant think of too many no confrontational words here, ahem people who say no cos youll only get fatter... pfffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffft... if he follows a good program hits his diet right (no nailled or any of the other cr4p that puriles spout) but trains his ass off he should be able to lose bf while gaining plenty of muscle and you know what it wont even take any aas or "other drugs"... damn people want to always complicate the simplest of functions... bulk away my friend but train your ar$e off in the gym and eat well out... watch the carbs and keep fats moderate... high protein... mmmm protein  works wonders...


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## MXD

Wardy21 said:


> I'm interested in this bit... Never heard of this? Most strongmen are 20%+ bf and never cut but continue to get stronger and put on muscle. I always thought staying leanish during bulks was more a choice and because its easier having less fat to cut when you do decide to cut rather than any reason to do with putting on muscle during the bulk.


You'll gain more muscle being lean as a rule.

Ofc you can hammer food and look like $hit. A big thick and big $hit.

There again I thought we where bodybuilders?

I'm not saying don't cain on the size if you need to. But at least start lean if you started fat.

If you started lean and got fat its not "so" much of a problem.

See IB's example.


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## Bruze

MXD can i have a bodyfat guess 










IN first pic and second pic (pics are 2 weeks apart)

OP cut down like i did! i got fat and hated it you will be depressed and end up quiting as you won't see decent results around all your fat


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## Greyphantom

MXD said:


> You'll gain more muscle being lean as a rule.
> 
> Ofc you can hammer food and look like $hit. A big thick and big $hit.
> 
> There again I thought we where bodybuilders?


Is that right hammer food and look sh1t... nice... you is good learning person... yes my answers seem vitriolic, oh hell they ARE vitriolic... but its just nonsense to say you cant bulk with bf or you cant gain muscle and lose bf without aas etc... you know what it doesnt matter... sigh...

are we... fvck me thats news to me... dammit all these year and I have been doing it wrong... oh well I am sure I will get it right one day...


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## MXD

Greyphantom said:


> Is that right hammer food and look sh1t... nice... you is good learning person... yes my answers seem vitriolic, oh hell they ARE vitriolic... but its just nonsense to say you cant bulk with bf or you cant gain muscle and lose bf without aas etc... you know what it doesnt matter... sigh...
> 
> are we... fvck me thats news to me... dammit all these year and I have been doing it wrong... oh well I am sure I will get it right one day...


I didn't mean you lol tit head.

For sure I agree with out mate, but we are bodybuilders (mainly) and want to look good regardless.. people get fat and they get depressed.. people want to look good naked..

So umm pics? :laugh: :whistling:


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## Little_Jay

mate DEFFO cut, its took me two years to realise but you never look good at 20% bf

im getitng as low as i can now before bulking, forget about size for now loose the fat

once you start putting on size from a lean state u will look 100x better


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## Natty.Solider

Get on a clean bulking diet, lift hard and heavy and watch your muscle mass grow and your bodyfat fall off. Don't tell me it can't be done because I did it. Don't do any AAS, not at this stage, you dont need it. Just be sensible about your diet and don't consume like 5-6kkcal


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## Greyphantom

MXD said:


> I didn't mean you lol tit head.
> 
> For sure I agree with out mate, but we are bodybuilders (mainly) and want to look good regardless.. people get fat and they get depressed.. people want to look good naked..
> 
> So umm pics? :laugh: :whistling:


check my journal, vids too 

still maintain you can bulk almost (see the provisio ALMOST) with any bf level... bulk for lean mass rather than tub mass... just as IB


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## Greyphantom

Natty.Solider said:


> Get on a clean bulking diet, lift hard and heavy and watch your muscle mass grow and your bodyfat fall off. Don't tell me it can't be done because I did it. Don't do any AAS, not at this stage, you dont need it. Just be sensible about your diet and don't consume like 5-6kkcal


spot on... those who say it cant be done simply dont train hard enough... my diet is pants compared to all bbers diets and I eat far too much fats and usually carbs (unless dieting down for comp)... but for some reason my training nips it in the bud... I get comments all the time about how I am leaning up while musculature is thickening and looking better... still have a bit round the middle but I am comfortable with that...


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## ausbuilt

Incredible Bulk said:


> do what makes you happy!
> 
> fck the abs...
> 
> i started at 14 stone.... bulked to 19 stone... went past the 20% bf barrier and kinda kept on pushing.
> 
> but hell, got me some cracking results.
> 
> 1st cut was a b1tch but at least i had something to cut back down to and show off.
> 
> jan 2009
> 
> 
> 
> fatty wanna donut?
> 
> then cut for my first show... had to drop 70lbs mind you but all part of the learning progress.


well done on the cut, but the point is you had to drop 70lb. This causes issues with skin elasticity, stretch marks etc.

The reality is you cant continually cut, or bulk, you need to alternate periods of both for results. I also was 23.4% BF 18months ago or so, and I NEVER want to be close to that again.. in your 2009 "fatty" pic, you look like you're over 25%... but the 70lb drop tells the story.

we all go through this i think.. psychologically hard to cut.. when you want to be big... but drastic fat gain is really not the optimal way to progress



Wardy21 said:


> I'm interested in this bit... Never heard of this? Most strongmen are 20%+ bf and never cut but continue to get stronger and put on muscle. I always thought staying leanish during bulks was more a choice and because its easier having less fat to cut when you do decide to cut rather than any reason to do with putting on muscle during the bulk.


MXD is very correct, and one of the few on here who understands insulin.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16613757

read it and weep... fat tissue DIRECTLY influences insulin resistance... more:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16497175

and more:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19723556

look its not even a theory- increased fat mass makes you more insulin insensitive through the action of various adipose cytokines (fat tissue based cytokines) and other mechanisms.

It gets worse... apart from the increased insulin insensitivity (which leads to over secretion of insulin, and greater fat storage of nutrients), increased fat tissue means more AROMATASE enzyme activity:

"...Aromatase P450 (P450arom) is responsible for *conversion of C19 steroids to estrogens in a number of human tissues*, such as the placenta, gonads, *adipose tissue*, skin and the brain. *Aromatase expression in human tissues is regulated by use of alternative promoters in the* placenta (promoter I.1), *adipose tissue* (promoters I.4, I.3 and II) and gonads (promoter II). Aromatase expression is absent in the disease-free adult liver, adrenal and uterine tissues. *Excessive or inappropriate aromatase expression in adipose fibroblasts* and endometriosis-derived stromal cells, as well as in testicular, hepatic, adrenal and uterine tumors, is associated with abnormally high circulating estrogen levels and/or with increased local estrogen concentrations in these tissues. Whether systemically delivered or locally produced, elevated estrogen levels will in turn promote the growth of hormone-responsive tissues.

from: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9365182

and simply and generally see also:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aromatase

now what does this mean? it means the more fat you store, the more likely you are to get gyno (even if a natty- see the fat man "moobs")...

Altoghether, the higher the amount of fat you store, the less efficient your body gets at using nutrients (it prefers to store them as fat, owing to insulin resistance or insensitivity) and the more feminised your fat, as you have higher levels of oestrogen produced LOCALLY in the high fat areas...


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## ebasiuk1

insulin sensitivity is something i would really like to get my head around.

so eating carbs constantly causing constant spikes makes you very insensitive

to become move sensitive i've always thought keeping carbs low and only eating when necessary i.e morning, pre/post work out is the way to go about this as post work out will cause more of an insulin spike if sensitive allowing the body to shuttle nutrients efficiently.

is that right MXD/Aus??


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## Incredible Bulk

ausbuilt said:


> well done on the cut, but the point is you had to drop 70lb. This causes issues with skin elasticity, stretch marks etc.
> 
> The reality is you cant continually cut, or bulk, you need to alternate periods of both for results. I also was 23.4% BF 18months ago or so, and I NEVER want to be close to that again.. in your 2009 "fatty" pic, you look like you're over 25%... but the 70lb drop tells the story.
> 
> we all go through this i think.. psychologically hard to cut.. when you want to be big... but drastic fat gain is really not the optimal way to progresss...


i'm not an advocate of going above 20-25% of bf but i'm saying for the love of god dont be one of those guys who say "keep those abs in sight!!!" then they wonder why they make little progress each year.

i messed up my first bulk by going on a see-food diet but i cant argue with the results it got me...

i dont sit in the slowly slowly catchy monkey slot... want big results, you need big changes.

getting anal about macros is something that makes me chuckle while i'm on a rant... 14 stone guys stressing over EFA's and their GI sources to make up their daily allowance of protein, carbs. fats etc.

JUST FCKING EAT

People talk of the body making the best gains while lean yet i am to see a person make a dramatic gain in size while staying lean.

Or is this another bro-forum-science copy paste?

Not looking for a pencil neck study, give me physical examples as in pics of people before, in their offseason and then after


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## Rubes

I'm 20 percent too. 13.5 stone 5ft10.4". Based on advice people have given me, and how I myself look with 20 percent body fat, If advicE you cut now with a view to bulking over winter


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## chrisch

At 6'1, 180lbs (or a little under 13 stone) and 20% fat there is going to be very little muscle mass under that. so you just going to cut down to a skinny bloke,

Bulk! put some muscle on first then think about cutting.


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## Fat

Incredible Bulk said:


> People talk of the body making the best gains while lean yet i am to see a person make a dramatic gain in size while staying lean.


http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/general-conversation/181371-7-bodyfat-maybe-ready-summer-mmmmwwwwaaahhhhaaaaaaaaaaahaa.html


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## Incredible Bulk

Fat said:


> http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/general-conversation/181371-7-bodyfat-maybe-ready-summer-mmmmwwwwaaahhhhaaaaaaaaaaahaa.html


i see a very lean individual... post cut.

now what was he like before hand? or what there a before pic in the set?


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## goonerton

Incredible Bulk said:


> i'm not an advocate of going above 20-25% of bf but i'm saying for the love of god dont be one of those guys who say "keep those abs in sight!!!" then they wonder why they make little progress each year.
> 
> i messed up my first bulk by going on a see-food diet but i cant argue with the results it got me...
> 
> i dont sit in the slowly slowly catchy monkey slot... want big results, you need big changes.
> 
> getting anal about macros is something that makes me chuckle while i'm on a rant... 14 stone guys stressing over EFA's and their GI sources to make up their daily allowance of protein, carbs. fats etc.
> 
> JUST FCKING EAT
> 
> People talk of the body making the best gains while lean yet i am to see a person make a dramatic gain in size while staying lean.
> 
> Or is this another bro-forum-science copy paste?
> 
> Not looking for a pencil neck study, give me physical examples as in pics of people before, in their offseason and then after


One thing , you look to have made huge gains between your 1st contest pics and your avi, obviously bf% is lower in contest pics but still looked to have gained a great deal ...now you probably going to say avi pic was before 1st contest lol

If contest pic was 1st did you blow back up to get from 1st contest pics size to avi pic size or did you do it more lean?


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## Jay.32

BB2 said:


> U can do whatever u want! There's no rules
> 
> But if I were u I'd do a very clean bulk, anything over 20% bf ain't pretty


x2


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## Incredible Bulk

goonerton said:


> One thing , you look to have made huge gains between your 1st contest pics and your avi, obviously bf% is lower in contest pics but still looked to have gained a great deal ...now you probably going to say avi pic was before 1st contest lol
> 
> If contest pic was 1st did you blow back up to get from 1st contest pics size to avi pic size or did you do it more lean?


my avi is november 2009

i have always blown back up (ok not to 70lbs above contest weight) to around 240-250lbs.

last year i competed at 207lbs afor my qualifier and then ducked down to 196lbs at the british finals and came 2nd, but with my frame i need size to stop me looking blocky so i am now 245-250lbs to step up to the u100kg class.

if i tried keeping abs all this time my progress would have been blunted IMO


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## MXD

Incredible Bulk said:


> my avi is november 2009
> 
> i have always blown back up (ok not to 70lbs above contest weight) to around 240-250lbs.
> 
> last year i competed at 207lbs afor my qualifier and then ducked down to 196lbs at the british finals and came 2nd, but with my frame i need size to stop me looking blocky so i am now 245-250lbs to step up to the u100kg class.
> 
> if i tried keeping abs all this time my progress would have been blunted IMO


Have you gained more muscle or muscle at a faster rate over the time you dieted down to sub 10% bf and have been in a calorie surpluss when lean.

Or more when you bulked up to 270lb?

Looks to me like you've made far better gains since being leaner post your first show, in he time frame over the time when you bulked to 270lb would you agree?


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## Incredible Bulk

MXD said:


> Have you gained more muscle or muscle at a faster rate over the time you dieted down to sub 10% bf and have been in a calorie surpluss when lean.
> 
> Or more when you bulked up to 270lb?
> 
> Looks to me like you've made far better gains since being leaner post your first show, in he time frame over the time when you bulked to 270lb would you agree?


i've read this back 3-4 times and i cant make sense of it bud, can you word it more clearly?

its opinion at the rate someone has gained and its not easy for someone to judge being on the outside.

since my first show yes i have not broached 20% bf again but i certainly have lost sight of my abs in every bulk since then.

has it slowed things, sure as hell not...

or is this a "if a tree falls in the woods and nobody is there, does it make a sound" type question... we will never know as its in the past and either way the results i had speak for itself?


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## MXD

Incredible Bulk said:


> i've read this back 3-4 times and i cant make sense of it bud, can you word it more clearly?
> 
> its opinion at the rate someone has gained and its not easy for someone to judge being on the outside.
> 
> since my first show yes i have not broached 20% bf again but i certainly have lost sight of my abs in every bulk since then.
> 
> has it slowed things, sure as hell not...
> 
> or is this a "if a tree falls in the woods and nobody is there, does it make a sound" type question... we will never know as its in the past and either way the results i had speak for itself?


Yeah I did read it back and confused myself haha!

Right, I mean;

Do you think you have grown faster since staying relatively lean, compared to when you where 18%+ bf?


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## MXD

Kinda simple question :laugh:


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## Incredible Bulk

MXD said:


> Yeah I did read it back and confused myself haha!
> 
> Right, I mean;
> 
> Do you think you have grown faster since staying relatively lean, compared to when you where 18%+ bf?


1st bulk i was 25% bf, subsequent bulks have been around 16-18% bf

so not lean in the sense of the way everyone talks about it, i.e. abs being on show.

i have made more progress over the last 2 years but again, you cannot attribute it to just being a few bf% lower, the fact i have had the input of people like Pscarb, James Collier and now Harold Marillier has ramped up my training and dieting has exploaded my progression.

I do not believe being leaner would of helped it any faster as i was feeding my body to a surplus and then accepting the extra prep time needed to diet back down.


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## Wardy211436114751

Incredible Bulk said:


> 1st bulk i was 25% bf, subsequent bulks have been around 16-18% bf
> 
> so not lean in the sense of the way everyone talks about it, i.e. abs being on show.
> 
> i have made more progress over the last 2 years but again, you cannot attribute it to just being a few bf% lower, the fact i have had the input of people like Pscarb, James Collier and now Harold Marillier has ramped up my training and dieting has exploaded my progression.
> 
> *I do not believe being leaner would of helped it any faster as i was feeding my body to a surplus and then accepting the extra prep time needed to diet back down*.


Just sparking debate here but wouldn't accepting extra prep time mean less time bulking and less time putting on muscle? Or you believe that bulking in such excess helped build muscle quicker so cancels the longer cut out (or even is a better option)?

I've read through the articles fat and aus posted and its hard to argue against the facts. Having said that when thinking of real life examples I always look at strongmen as the average guy in WSM finals is what 140-150kg at 6ft (160-180 at like 6'3-6'8) and they put on huge amounts of muscle and obviously have huge strength and they've probably never cut in their whole lives. Admittedly a lot are what 20%+ bf (though not all) but it still shows a whole different spectrum of trainers doing it differently with great results...just sayin like


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## Fat

Wardy21 said:


> Just sparking debate here but wouldn't accepting extra prep time mean less time bulking and less time putting on muscle? Or you believe that bulking in such excess helped build muscle quicker so cancels the longer cut out (or even is a better option)?
> 
> I've read through the articles fat and aus posted and its hard to argue against the facts. Having said that when thinking of real life examples I always look at strongmen as the average guy in WSM finals is what 140-150kg at 6ft (160-180 at like 6'3-6'8) and they put on huge amounts of muscle and obviously have huge strength and they've probably never cut in their whole lives. Admittedly a lot are what 20%+ bf (though not all) but it still shows a whole different spectrum of trainers doing it differently with great results...just sayin like


Regarding your example about strongmen I don't know much about but are they on AAS? When drugs are brought into the mix the way you partition your calories change.

From the article:

"So what are the main determinants of calorie partitioning? Obviously, hormones are crucially important. High testosterone levels tend to have positive paritioning effects (more muscle, less fat) while chronically high levels of cortisol have the opposite effect (less muscle, more fat). Thyroid and nervous system activity affect not only metabolic rate but also fat burning; optimized thyroid and nervous system levels mean better fat burning, which means less muscle loss when you diet. It also means less fat gain when you overeat. Unfortunately, levels of these hormones are basically 'set' by our genetics; the only way to change them significantly is with supplements or drugs. Beyond that, there's not a whole lot we can do to control them.

Another factor controlling P-ratio is insulin sensitivity which refers to how well or how poorly a given tissue responds to the hormone insulin. Now, insulin is a storage hormone, affecting nutrient storage in tissues such as liver, muscle and fat cells. In that same ideal world, we'd have high insulin sensitivity in skeletal muscle (as this would tend to drive more calories into muscle) and poor insulin sensitivity in fat cells (making it harder to store calories there). This is especially true when you're trying to gain muscle."


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## Incredible Bulk

Wardy21 said:


> Just sparking debate here but wouldn't accepting extra prep time mean less time bulking and less time putting on muscle? Or you believe that bulking in such excess helped build muscle quicker so cancels the longer cut out (or even is a better option)?
> 
> I've read through the articles fat and aus posted and its hard to argue against the facts. Having said that when thinking of real life examples I always look at strongmen as the average guy in WSM finals is what 140-150kg at 6ft (160-180 at like 6'3-6'8) and they put on huge amounts of muscle and obviously have huge strength and they've probably never cut in their whole lives. Admittedly a lot are what 20%+ bf (though not all) but it still shows a whole different spectrum of trainers doing it differently with great results...just sayin like


its a good debate i agree.

longer prep vs longer lean bulk....

flip side... longer lean bulk required compared to a dirtier bulk? bigger results, shorter time period.

on the subject of powerlifters, sure, the majoity are 20% bf+, fuelling the metabolic fires helps things to no end.

as Fat states, AAS is a game changer...

are these studies including AAS in the mix??

sky high testosterone/androgen levels + high calorific surplus = win IMO.


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## Fat

I think the point MXD was trying to make was the leaner you're (with aas or without) the more chance your surplus of calories will be used to build muscle when you simulate your muscles with progressive strength training. it's been proven with science


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## Incredible Bulk

Fat said:


> I think the point MXD was trying to make was the leaner you're (with aas or without) the more chance your surplus of calories will be used to build muscle when you simulate your muscles with progressive strength training. it's been proven with science


is this the case with AAS or was that important link in the daisy chain left out?


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## Greyphantom

Once again IB for the win... except for the plers being 20% plus not all of us mate... well me sometimes sure but there are those who arent 

MXD your post as quoted by IB is not fitting in with what I am reading (or perhaps understanding) why if youre lean will excess cals got toward muscle more than fat? in a natty of course, if youre talking with then I see how that can happen... then I guess also genetic predisposition plays a part too...


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## Fat

Incredible Bulk said:


> is this the case with AAS or was that important link in the daisy chain left out?


Lol when I talk most of the time I'm talking about naturally since I am natural as you tell from my avi :lol:

Since this is the getting started section and the OP has joined the forum this month I assume he is a noob so he isn't going to start a AAS cycle this soon regardless so most of the benefits are irreverent to him at this stage.

I personally think anyone who starts a AAS cycle should be a relevantly healthy individual so it would be in their interest to reduce any risk to their health.

Excess body fat is associated with high cholesterol levels and this condition makes a person more at risk for arteriosclerosis. Arteriosclerosis is the narrowing of the arteries which can lead to the vital organs being deprived of blood. When the heart has to pump harder to move blood around the body there may be a rise in blood pressure. High blood pressure can lead to a number of health risks such as heart attack and stroke


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## Incredible Bulk

the debate and question at hand went on a tangent to that of the OP's question...

Whilst i agree AAS is not the OP's subject of query, when people debate the benefits of staying lean and throw in scientific studies, it has to be noted that those subjects were not using AAS (code of ethics rules that out) and therefore any conclusions albeit encouraging to support a blanket statement for all types of weight trainer, it cannot be ruled out that AAS plays a huge role here.


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## Wardy211436114751

Incredible Bulk said:


> the debate and question at hand went on a tangent to that of the OP's question...
> 
> Whilst i agree AAS is not the OP's subject of query, when people debate the benefits of staying lean and throw in scientific studies, it has to be noted that those subjects were not using AAS (code of ethics rules that out) and therefore any conclusions albeit encouraging to support a blanket statement for all types of weight trainer, it cannot be ruled out that AAS plays a huge role here.


Well I personally think we should kill 2 birds with one stone while the debate is going. The previous studies do seem to back up the staying leaner approach for natties though. And thinking about it you don't get many natties who bulk through and through whilst getting fat (20%+bf) and have lots of muscle underneath because cutting it all off would lose so much muscle natty.

So to OP If you're going to be bulking naturally then it seems the best option would be to cut down. As Aus has said maybe an 8 week cut get down to 10-12% bf then a 6 week bulk where you might get back to 16-18% bf and rinse and repeat. Or just get lean and don't let yourself get fat again and steadily lean bulk. If you plan on using assistance then I'm not sure right now :lol:

lets move on to those who aren't natty


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## Fat

Incredible Bulk said:


> the debate and question at hand went on a tangent to that of the OP's question...
> 
> Whilst i agree AAS is not the OP's subject of query, when people debate the benefits of staying lean and throw in scientific studies, it has to be noted that those subjects were not using AAS (code of ethics rules that out) and therefore any conclusions albeit encouraging to support a blanket statement for all types of weight trainer, it cannot be ruled out that AAS plays a huge role here.


I totally agree with you AAS does play a huge role but from what I know the leaner a person is the better their insulin sensitivity is? don't you think that is correct?


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## Wardy211436114751

Fat said:


> I totally agree with you AAS does play a huge role but from what I know the leaner a person is the better their insulin sensitivity is? don't you think that is correct?


I don't think we're debating that but more the other factors that big excess in kcalories could contribute to someone training hard and using AAS. I guess we will never find out whats optimal and although not full proof due to differences in genetics seeing what the all the top BB pros do would be a good starting point. Do most stay leanish? Again I'm going to bring up top strongmen who don't stay lean and never cut but put on huge mass and strength... I know a lot of it with strongmen is to fuel workouts as they have much heavier capacities but the fact remains they build huge physiques by not staying lean.


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## Incredible Bulk

Fat said:


> I totally agree with you AAS does play a huge role but from what I know the leaner a person is the better their insulin sensitivity is? *don't you think that is correct*?


As a working journalist that is known as a leading question lol... 

However i do agree RE: insulin sensitivity.


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## Fat

btw I'm not saying anyone is wrong or right its just my opinion from the research I read. wtf would i know :lol:


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## infernal0988

ausbuilt said:


> bulk, even "clean" is excess cals, and you will put fat on.
> 
> It is possible to loose BF and gain muscle, but it takes a substantial amount of drugs (not just AAS).
> 
> The easier way, is cut for 8 weeks, then bulk for 6 weeks, and then repeat a few times..


Yep like me iv just started a blast with Test & Deca and iknow i will gain some fat , water and their are ways of minimizing that like managing your cal intake , keeping sodium consumption low, watching your fat intake , and last but certainly not least 20min or so of cardio & walking everywhere you go


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## infernal0988

Oh and too the OP IMO you should focus on cardio and high rep high set weight lifting, start reading up on food and basic nutrition as in my opinion training is atleast 70% nutrition.


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