# Sugar Free soda/drinks



## Tom84 (Dec 12, 2005)

What's your opinion on whether sugar free drinks spike insulin/lower blood glucose?

I remember Doug ascribes to the Cephalad phase of insulin release (brain detects a sweet taste via taste buds which causes a neurally-triggered secretion of insulin)

I drink quite a lot but am thinking if I reason honestly, I should probably cut them out. I have however seen a few self tests which have caused no variation in blood sugar.

Cheers


----------



## Tom84 (Dec 12, 2005)

- Should have posted this in the Q&A with Andy thread. Dorsey you mind moving this? Cheers


----------



## justheretosnoop (Jun 15, 2012)

The Q&A is only a thread, not a section so I think the only way to move it is to physically copy/paste your post then delete this thread completely.

Better you do that than me though so he knows the Q is coming from a reputable source...

Let the debate begin!!


----------



## renshaw (Jun 5, 2012)

I can remember someone saying the other day, that they are fine to drink and would only really consider cutting out if was preping for a competition.

I do like my diet coke, although I do sometimes wonder what is in the "zero" drinks..?? Maybe to much artificial is as equally bad for you as too much sugar??


----------



## allbro75 (Mar 15, 2007)

I don't know if this is just in my head but I get realy bad sugar cravings after drinking diet juice. I've cut it down to one can per day and feel better for it. I've also found sticking to a diet easier, think I'll just move to water an tea from now on.


----------



## webadmin1466867919 (Dec 1, 2006)

I know people who have cut artificial sweeteners out have found that it aided their weightloss.

I've also read that it takes a lot of glasses of water to process a glass of soft drink


----------



## mark_star1466868017 (Jul 14, 2011)

i'm sure there was a study done in the states, possibly last year, that echoes what Doug is saying


----------



## renshaw (Jun 5, 2012)

i seen a documentary on bbc 3 about two teens, one only drank water the other drank cola for a week the end result they checked there hydration levels per day and they was exactly the same think they both drunk two litres. Not the answer to the question but i thought i'd share the information


----------



## Tom84 (Dec 12, 2005)

Here's the problem...

Studies showing aspartame DOES NOT have an effect

http://www.ajcn.org/content/49/3/427.full.pdf

Aspartame: neuropsychologic and neurophysiolo... [Am J Clin Nutr. 1998] - PubMed - NCBI

Studies showing saccharin DOES

Cephalic phase insulin release in healthy humans af... [Appetite. 2008] - PubMed - NCBI

Studies showing saccharin DOES NOT

Response to single dose of aspartame or saccha... [Diabetes Care. 1988] - PubMed - NCBI

Studies showing acesulfame K DOES in rats

The effect of artificial sweetener on insulin... [Horm Metab Res. 1987] - PubMed - NCBI (in vitro)

Study (on isolated pancreatic cells) showing sweeteners with a bitter aftertaste (stevia, saccharin, a K) DO, Aspartame (sweet aftertaste) DOES NOT.

Effects of artificial sweeteners on insulin rele... [Cell Signal. 1998] - PubMed - NCBI

I realise I want there to be no insulin response to speak of, and I've not let the subject of this thread stray yet to the affect on the leptin receptors in the brain.

I think there is some good evidence for the Cephalic affect (Cephalic phase - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) but overall the results are inconclusive.


----------



## AChappell (Jun 1, 2011)

The thread will be fine here since it's got a few reply's. That's a really good question young gun, one that I actually couldn't give you a definitive answer too without doing a bit more research on the subject. I do know that sugar free drinks with artificial sweetners are recommend clinically to people on weight loss diets with metabolic diseases (things like CVD or diabetes). I have heard the argument your proposing before, although I have never read any papers on the subject it's unsurprising that sweetners cause a insulin response but when you consider that, sweetners tend to be undigestible analogs it's no surprise you don't see the associated increase in the AUC seen in blood glucose also. This could result in reduced satiety following a drink high in sweetners and lead to gorging in the next meal, but in the case of a bodybuilder this isn't an issue, since we tend to stick to suck a tightly controlled diet anyway. You could counter argue though that chewing gum may in fact sap your energy though as a result, personally though I've never experienced anything like this. While most sweetners are indigestible it's likely that they could be broken down to yield energy in the colon as short chain fatty acids, the energy conversion is likely to be poor though around 1 - 2 kcal per gram however I doubt this has ever been studied.

My own personal experience of sweetners though has always been positive, a useful addition to a bland diet. I never consume full fat or full sugar drinks I don't see the point in them, you'd probably be better drinking a milk shake at least it would get digested slower and have protein in it. I was drinking diet coke and sweetner in my coffee right up until 4 days out from my last show. So if their is a negative affect of using sweetner in the diet, such as the ones i explained, I think the positives far out weigh them and it's certainly a lesser evil than a sugar laden drink.


----------



## mark_star1466868017 (Jul 14, 2011)

and our problem, as always, is who paid for the research and so what do we believe?

have to say i'm not a fan of sweeteners, really don't like the aftertaste and i certainly don't trust the companies to be telling us the truth about any possible nasty effects.

Will be interesting to see what happens in the future, will the industry quietly start to replace them, as they did homogenised fats? The detrimental effects of which were known for years but kept under wraps.


----------



## AChappell (Jun 1, 2011)

It would seem just by simply looking at the links you've posted that the results are fairly inconclusive or highly specific to a subject population, whatever the case me be it's apparent that more research is warranted. A couple of rat trials and a invitro study doesn't quite stand up to the same sort of scrutiny as a human trial, I wish people would release that when they talk about antioxidant molecules like those in the Acai berries.

I think it might be a while Young Gun until you see data published on leptin receptors in the brain. Is it possible to use a non invasive method to measure activity?


----------



## Tom84 (Dec 12, 2005)

AChappell said:


> I have heard the argument your proposing before, although I have never read any papers on the subject it's unsurprising that sweetners cause a insulin response but when you consider that, sweetners tend to be undigestible analogs it's no surprise you don't see the associated increase in the AUC seen in blood glucose also.


Great point. To follow up, then if one self tested is it possible would you be looking for a slight decrease in blood glucose, not a rise. I.e. causes your insulin to spike in anticipation of sugar (cephalic affect) but the sugar never arrives. Insulin is released that is not needed etc...


----------



## AChappell (Jun 1, 2011)

Brain wave:- Just a thought, if the sweetner did induce a massive increase in insulin prior to a meal, this could be a great hard gainer strategy. Large dose of sweetner spiking insulin, allowing for a more effective transport of nutrients post meal, or perhaps even pre workout since insulin negates protein breakdown. Just a thought while we're talking sweetners.


----------



## Tom84 (Dec 12, 2005)

AChappell said:


> It would seem just by simply looking at the links you've posted that the results are fairly inconclusive or highly specific to a subject population, whatever the case me be it's apparent that more research is warranted. A couple of rat trials and a invitro study doesn't quite stand up to the same sort of scrutiny as a human trial, I wish people would release that when they talk about antioxidant molecules like those in the Acai berries.
> 
> I think it might be a while Young Gun until you see data published on leptin receptors in the brain. Is it possible to use a non invasive method to measure activity?


Variations in rT3 is how its currently measured. There are over 30,000 articles on leptin resistance on pub med but Jack Kruses stuff is an easy entry route to reading about it.


----------



## Tom84 (Dec 12, 2005)

AChappell said:


> Brain wave:- Just a thought, if the sweetner did induce a massive increase in insulin prior to a meal, this could be a great hard gainer strategy. Large dose of sweetner spiking insulin, allowing for a more effective transport of nutrients post meal, or perhaps even pre workout since insulin negates protein breakdown. Just a thought while we're talking sweetners.


  - That would be an hilarious article. I can see other boards now. 'The Boys at muscle chat are telling anyone under 170lb to just have a ****load of Sweet & Low before every meal' - genius.


----------



## EXTREME (Aug 5, 2005)

This is an excellent thread and shows the knowledge base on here is first class.

My thoughts on it are that if you are of a genetic disposition where you gain fat easily then this is due to your body being over sensitive to carbs and you are at a high risk of diabetes in later years, then these are the people at GREATEST RISK of being succeptable to low calorie sweetened drinks either stimulating an insulin release OR your brain telling you you're hungry because the brain will have switched on it's food processing mode after the sugary drink and so will be expecting food thus making you hungry.

I truly believe if you can control your insulin secretions and in time leptin then obesity can be countered. BUT this would need to start by educating people in this kind of thing at school. By the time those at risk realise something is wrong they are overweight and most just accept it and by the time the intelligent ones have worked it out it's already too late.


----------



## Tom84 (Dec 12, 2005)

Extreme said:


> I truly believe if you can control your insulin secretions and in time leptin then obesity can be countered. BUT this would need to start by educating people in this kind of thing at school. By the time those at risk realise something is wrong they are overweight and most just accept it and by the time the intelligent ones have worked it out it's already too late.


If anyone is interested in this at all - JCI - Sixteen years and counting: an update on leptin in energy balance

This is much less helpful (as it tells you how to do a leptin diet but not so much why) but its a video  - vleptinsegment2

Have a search of Dr Jack Kruse's website as I find him hugely useful in giving a reasonably penetrable guide to Leptin. http://jackkruse.com/the-quilthow-to-beat-agin/#Leptin


----------



## AChappell (Jun 1, 2011)

Young Gun said:


> Great point. To follow up, then if one self tested is it possible would you be looking for a slight decrease in blood glucose, not a rise. I.e. causes your insulin to spike in anticipation of sugar (cephalic affect) but the sugar never arrives. Insulin is released that is not needed etc...


Correct a decrease in Glucose AUC is what you'd be looking for to confirm that theory.



Young Gun said:


> Variations in rT3 is how its currently measured. There are over 30,000 articles on leptin resistance on pub med but Jack Kruses stuff is an easy entry route to reading about it.


I'll need to look into it that then, I'll check out the review you posted by Jack Kruses and see what his take is on it, I have quite a bit of material I need to get through though in the mean time though.

I think you more than hold your own Young Gun when it comes to technical debate.


----------



## Tom84 (Dec 12, 2005)

Allenb said:


> I don't know if this is just in my head but I get realy bad sugar cravings after drinking diet juice. I've cut it down to one can per day and feel better for it. I've also found sticking to a diet easier, think I'll just move to water an tea from now on.


Scientifically that's completely in line with the broad consensus view we've got here Allen. Basically its because - to quote Doug ' your brain telling you you're hungry because the brain will have switched on it's food processing mode after the sugary drink through and so will be expecting food (which it isn't going to get) - thus making you hungry.'


----------



## AChappell (Jun 1, 2011)

Young Gun said:


> - That would be an hilarious article. I can see other boards now. 'The Boys at muscle chat are telling anyone under 170lb to just have a ****load of Sweet & Low before every meal' - genius.


I've read dafter arguments!



Extreme said:


> This is an excellent thread and shows the knowledge base on here is first class.
> 
> My thoughts on it are that if you are of a genetic disposition where you gain fat easily then this is due to your body being over sensitive to carbs and you are at a high risk of diabetes in later years, then these are the people at GREATEST RISK of being succeptable to low calorie sweetened drinks either stimulating an insulin release OR your brain telling you you're hungry because the brain will have switched on it's food processing mode after the sugary drink and so will be expecting food thus making you hungry.
> 
> I truly believe if you can control your insulin secretions and in time leptin then obesity can be countered. BUT this would need to start by educating people in this kind of thing at school. By the time those at risk realise something is wrong they are overweight and most just accept it and by the time the intelligent ones have worked it out it's already too late.


It's funny how traits that would have been desirable in the last 2000 years suddenly become a major public health issue today. People are too lazy period, sadly I'm of the opinion that unless we can develop pharmacological interventions, or start to take some radical steps towards curbing obesity then western society will continue on it's bloated path of self destruction!

An interesting aside to your argument though Doug would be the epigenetic stance. This relates to gene methylation and works like a switch, the more methylated a gene is the more we cant translate or express its functions or the less methylated. Just because your at a disadvantage with poor genetics or predisposed to gain fat doesn't mean that you can't train your body and change it's phenotype to one less likely to store fat. People shouldn't be so quick to blame poor genetics this very much fits in with the idea of building a base and allowing for anatomical adaptations.


----------



## justheretosnoop (Jun 15, 2012)

Certain parts of this thread are well above my level of understanding but I still enjoy the task of trying to get my head around it!

Great discussion lads...


----------



## Chrissy....... (Nov 25, 2013)

Interesting stuff , but all a bit over my head lol. I just drink sugared drinks now(if i take a notion) as I became more wary that diet drinks were more spiked with additives .

Wouldnt fruit or pure fruit juice be a healthier alternative, getting the sweetness from the natural fructose, or am i totally missing the point .


----------



## Tom84 (Dec 12, 2005)

AChappell said:


> An interesting aside to your argument though Doug would be the epigenetic stance. This relates to gene methylation and works like a switch, the more methylated a gene is the more we cant translate or express its functions or the less methylated. Just because your at a disadvantage with poor genetics or predisposed to gain fat doesn't mean that you can't train your body and change it's phenotype to one less likely to store fat. People shouldn't be so quick to blame poor genetics this very much fits in with the idea of building a base and allowing for anatomical adaptations.


Really interesting. The triumphalism after the FTO gene data Oxford produced was rampant. Immediately you had string after string of people rocking on TV/making public comments to lambast anyone who demonised people for their weight (or more specifically bodyfat). If you had both copies of the variant you basically had no chance - or so the logic went. I've just looked it up and the weight differential was 3kg... Says it all really.

Be interested if you could point me in a good starting direction for info on gene methylation for a lay person.


----------



## Phenix (May 12, 2012)

Chris sanchez said:


> Interesting stuff , but all a bit over my head lol. I just drink sugared drinks now(if i take a notion) as I became more wary that diet drinks were more spiked with additives .Wouldnt fruit or pure fruit juice be a healthier alternative, getting the sweetness from the natural fructose, or am i totally missing the point .


It well above my head to All I know I eat min 7 bits of fruit a day and as you see I am not fat and never ill So I will carry on eating it


----------



## AChappell (Jun 1, 2011)

A quick wiki search explains it pretty well Young Gun, you only need to read the introduction to get a good idea what it's about. Personally I think the potential in Epigenetics is massive. after all you can't really alter your genome but you can manipulate your epigenome. Folate appears to be one of the main nutrients in regulating methylation, a lot of work has been done in Eukaryota cells and animal models showing this. The Scientific Advisory Commission for Nutrition (SACN) held off on fortifying bread with folate to prevent neural tube defects in this country since data emerging from the USA (where bread is fortified) has seen a large increase in cancers, explained by epigenetic factors.

I've not read the FTO study your referring to, but we all know how well the media likes to sensationalise data, SACN actually has a statement on their website that simply states not enough information is available at present to justify genetic testing for traits, not surprisingly really when you consider that literately thousands of genes could be involved in metabolism, the mind boggles!


----------

