# Clomid ON cycle - good or bad idea? or both



## m118 (Feb 4, 2011)

*Here's an interesting study I came across*

''Clomiphene citrate [aka clomid] (CC) may be used as an alternative treatment in these patients with hypogonadism when maintenance of fertility is desired. This study shows that CC is a safe and efficacious drug to use as an alternative to exogenous testosterone. Not only have we validated previous findings of other papers but have proven our findings over a much longer period (mean duration of treatment *19 months*). This prospective study is the largest to date assessing both the objective hormone response to CC therapy as well as the subjective response based on a validated questionnaire.''

''CC was commenced at 25?mg every other day and titrated to 50?mg every other day.''

''All mean testosterone and gonadotropin measurements significantly increased during treatment''

''There were no major side effects recorded''

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22044663

I know many are worried about taking clomid for greater than 3-4 weeks, but given that this study was 19 months with no major side effects, I would suspect that using it for the duration on cycle (eg 8-12+ weeks) is relatively safe.

*How Clomid works in men*

And here's a useful link and nice picture included in the article that Ausbuilt posted on clomid and it effects on males.



http://www.maledoc.com/blog/2010/04/28/how-clomid-works-in-men/

*Clomid ON cycle*

I have not come across a single study using clomid on cycle, nor have I seen any on cycle bloods from people using it BUT logically, the anecdotal evidence and mechanism is compelling. We know that androgens and oestrogens are capable of suppressing endogenous LH (and FSH) production and using the anti-E clomid tackles the oestrogen side.

One issue I am unsure of is the impact of the surplus on androgens suppressing the negative feedback loop whilst the clomid boosts it. Like a tug of war, whether a higher dose is needed or not, but anecdotally and by Ausbuilt's recommendation, 50mg eod (every other day) seems to be a good place to start.


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## Machette (Oct 29, 2011)

Yh from my understanding the depression is due to the crash of androgens... If natural levels of testosterone etc are maintained on course this will help the crash at the end! This will be interesting!!!


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## m118 (Feb 4, 2011)

^ interesting idea. One that is logical and kinda makes me think I should look into the mood aspects more.

Let's say hypothetically, to play devil's advocate, that clomid is able to cause mood depression, do you think the surplus of androgens would overpower this? You gotta admit, being on cycle often boosts one's mood...


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## m118 (Feb 4, 2011)

Empire boy, in the discussion section of the study I posted it refers to 2-3 other studies done in men using clomid as TRT (although on short time scales).

Any chance in the next few days you could dig those up and see if it makes any reference to mood changes?

I agree with you, and Hacksii, but it would be useful to put the final nail in the coffin IMO


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## HVYDUTY100 (Sep 4, 2010)

Would it be effective to use both HCG and clomid together.... or just one or the other.


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## m118 (Feb 4, 2011)

Empire Boy said:


> Yes. Can you PM the references just to be sure I dig the right ones up? I'll link them, and I can send you the PDF as well if I can.





Empire Boy said:


> Also I am incredibly lazy at the moment, on DNP, lol....even a google scholar search makes me tired...


lol yea, here we are

Tenover JS , Bremner WJ . *The effects of*

*
normal aging on the response of the*

*
pituitary-gonadal axis to chronic*

*
clomiphene administration in men* .

J Androl 1991 ; 12 : 258 - 63

Guay AT , Bansal S , Heatley GJ . *Effect*

*
of raising endogenous testosterone*

*
levels in impotent men with secondary*

*
hypogonadism: double blind placebocontrolled*

*
trial with clomiphene citrate* .

J Clin Endocrinol Metab 1995 ; 80 :

3546 - 52

Guay AT , Jacobson J , Perez JB , Hodge

MB , Velasquez E . *Clomiphene increases*

*
free testosterone levels in men with*

*
both secondary hypogonadism and*

*
erectile dysfunction: who does and does*

*
not benefi t?* Int J Impot Res 2003 ; 15 :

156 - 65


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## m118 (Feb 4, 2011)

Empire Boy said:


> This is the other interesting question to ask. Does anybody see a problem arising in that the synthetic LH, i.e. hCG, might dampen the effects of clomid, or vice versa, if run con-currently?


From my understanding, and bear in mind I am very new to the HCG game, but I believe using HCG increases aromatase activity in the testes leading to greater oestrogen. Whether this is avoided by doing smaller multiple shots per week compared with 1 big one is something I believe is true, but crudely speaking, more oestrogen means more competition with clomid for the oestrogen binding sites


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## Fatstuff (Mar 2, 2010)

So if clomid blocks oestrogen to the pituitary and nolva blocks oestrogen in the receptors, would it be safe to say that you could use nolva and clomid on cycle when using highly aromatising gear and still have benefits of the oestrogen without the suppression and gyno fears of oestrogen. Just watch the blood pressure due to the water retention, would this sound about right?


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## SonOfZeus (Feb 15, 2009)

Fatstuff said:


> So if clomid blocks oestrogen to the pituitary and nolva blocks oestrogen in the receptors, would it be safe to say that you could use nolva and clomid on cycle when using highly aromatising gear and still have benefits of the oestrogen without the suppression and gyno fears of oestrogen. Just watch the blood pressure due to the water retention, would this sound about right?


Interesting, never thought about that.. Is having excess oestrogen going to have adverse affects on fat loss when trying to cut? As I was going to run Aromasin on my test cycle I'm going to run next year, however if the oestrogen could have some benefit whilst cutting then It'd save me doing so if I ran both clomid and Nolva?

Still not sure what to do, Clomid or HCG. I'd prefer HCG, but I'm a uni student and can't store HCG in my fridge otherwise someone would undoubtedly find it and it'd be very hard to explain! So was going to run Clomid 50mg EOD as Aus reccomends, but seems to be so much negativity towards Clomid! Hmm..


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## m118 (Feb 4, 2011)

Empire Boy said:


> Here are the links and PDF files to the study. Lets have a read and then see how this stacks up with the current findings.


Nice work! I've got a long day ahead of me but I'll get back to these tonight buddy


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## m118 (Feb 4, 2011)

On a side note, perhaps tonight we should do some digging on HCG studies in men (on and off cycle if that's possible) and see what, if any, issues arise?

Make an informed comparison and list the positives and negatives for each


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## Mars (Aug 25, 2007)

m118 said:


> From my understanding, and bear in mind I am very new to the HCG game, *but I believe using HCG increases aromatase activity* in the testes leading to greater oestrogen. *Whether this is avoided by doing smaller multiple shots per week compared with 1 big one is something I believe is true*, but crudely speaking, more oestrogen means more competition with clomid for the oestrogen binding sites


Yes it's true but thats because injecting hCG more often than twice weekly is a waste, this is explained in the sticky about the testes being refractory to further stimulation.

PS: Clomid has also been know to cause gyno because it increases aromatase activity.


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## Mars (Aug 25, 2007)

Empire Boy said:


> Is there a study for this? And how much more does it increase aromatisation than hCG?


I don't know if there is a "study" but it is a fact.


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## SonOfZeus (Feb 15, 2009)

If I were to use Clomid 50mg EOD, and I was running 25mg Aromasin EOD anyway, would I still be at risk of Gyno caused by clomid's increased aromotization? As gyno is one of my biggest concerns.. I presume HCG is less of a risk in this case?


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## m118 (Feb 4, 2011)

I will have a look at those studies tomorrow. Work is OTT at the mo. But hopefully will dig up some interesting stuff


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## reza85 (Jan 11, 2009)

At the risk of sounding like a totall moron ! HCG on cycle yes or no ? I am confused


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

Empire Boy said:


> One response a lot of people might give is that 'clomid made me depressed on PCT'...I think on cycle, if I understand it correctly, clomid, as the study shows, will not and does not cause this. What causes the 'depression' in PCT is an androgen crash and clomid's slightly oestrogenic activity...but I think on-cycle clomid and depression would not be an issue?


i think the biggest issue is during PCT, you do get an androgen crash (sub normal levels). The idea of running clomid THROUGH the cycle, is you don't have such an androgen deficit at the end..

I also think that people start PCT to late... it should start the same week as your last shot, not a week later.. and PCT should be 4-6 weeks... with the the first week 2 weeks using an AI with clomid.. then 2 week with clomid and nolva, and then jsut nolva....

at any rate, i think the whole process works better if you're HPTA is not so suppressed in the first place.. and I think if take through the cycle at a low dose EOD, clomid is not oestrogenic at all..


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

Mars said:


> Yes it's true but thats because injecting hCG more often than twice weekly is a waste, this is explained in the sticky about the testes being refractory to further stimulation.
> 
> PS: Clomid has also been know to cause gyno because it increases aromatase activity.


i've noticed this, and always recommended running an AI alternating with clomid through cycle, rather than nolva..



SonOfZeus said:


> If I were to use Clomid 50mg EOD, and I was running 25mg Aromasin EOD anyway, would I still be at risk of Gyno caused by clomid's increased aromotization? As gyno is one of my biggest concerns.. I presume HCG is less of a risk in this case?


no you'd be fine... its more an issue during PCT taking 100mg/daily.. HCG is in fact one of the worst culprits for "overnight" massive gyno... as it ROCKETS your own test level when you do more than 1000iu in a shot.. its why i prefer clomid through cycle than HCG..


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## Contest (Oct 4, 2011)

May I just ask Ausbuilt, how long have you been on Clomid for without coming off mate?


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## SonOfZeus (Feb 15, 2009)

Think I'm going to bite and run Clomid 50mg EOD through my test E cycle, so will be sure to keep you updated with my feedback on the protocol!


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## reza85 (Jan 11, 2009)

Empire Boy said:


> Yes. But clomid is an alternative, we are just wondering if its a better alternative. It might be. The Nov. 2011 peer reviewed article in BJUI is very interesting info indeed.


What would I do with out mate ? LOL No ****


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## Superhorse (May 29, 2011)

ausbuilt said:


> i think the biggest issue is during PCT, you do get an androgen crash (sub normal levels). The idea of running clomid THROUGH the cycle, is you don't have such an androgen deficit at the end..
> 
> I also think that people start PCT to late... it should start the same week as your last shot, not a week later.. and PCT should be 4-6 weeks... with the the first week 2 weeks using an AI with clomid.. then 2 week with clomid and nolva, and then jsut nolva....
> 
> at any rate, i think the whole process works better if you're HPTA is not so suppressed in the first place.. and I think if take through the cycle at a low dose EOD, clomid is not oestrogenic at all..


great info - so to be precise your protocal would be something like the below?

on cycle- 25mg clomid, no hcg?

post cycle wk1-2: 100mg clomid, 25mg aromasin?

post cycle wk2-4: 100mg clomid (or 50?), 40mg nolva?

post cycle wk4-6: 20mg nolva?


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## SonOfZeus (Feb 15, 2009)

I think it's more like (if I remember this correctly...)

50mg EOD Clomid ON cycle, with 25mg Aromasin EOD also if required (or use Adex if you prefer, equivalant dose).

POST Cycle, you continue the 50mg Clomid + Aromasin/Adex EOD for 2 weeks, until proper PCT begins, where you then run Clomid 100/100/50/50, Aromasin 25 ED 1 week?, Nolva - / - / 20 / 20

Something like that, got a feeling thats slightly off though!


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## Superhorse (May 29, 2011)

ok so those first 2 weeks only apply if you have longer esters in your system?


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## FLEX-ERAZ (Jan 14, 2011)

My head hurts.


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## SonOfZeus (Feb 15, 2009)

This is it. I think Aus means he starts PCT 1 week after last jab even with longer esters, but might be wrong?

PCT -

Clomid 100mg ED Weeks 1 & 2

Aromasin 25mg ED Weeks 1

Aromasin 25mg EOD Weeks 2

Nolva 20mg EOD Weeks 2

Nolva 20mg ED Weeks 3 & 4


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## FLEX-ERAZ (Jan 14, 2011)

SonOfZeus said:


> This is it. I think Aus means he starts PCT 1 week after last jab even with longer esters, but might be wrong?
> 
> PCT -
> 
> ...


So clomid would still be used eod throughout the cycle?when would hcg come into play?would that be after last jab?


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## SonOfZeus (Feb 15, 2009)

Read the thread, that's the point in running Clomid 50mg EOD on cycle, it's an alternative to HCG..


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

Contest said:


> May I just ask Ausbuilt, how long have you been on Clomid for without coming off mate?


8 months... and will stay on for the next 12, as thats my cycle so to speak- will prob be stopping around this time next year or so start a family, but once that's done, its back on...


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## FLEX-ERAZ (Jan 14, 2011)

SonOfZeus said:


> Read the thread, that's the point in running Clomid 50mg EOD on cycle, it's an alternative to HCG..


Have read it,but was unsure if this was just for cycle and hcg would still be introduced for pct..i get it now:beer:


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

SonOfZeus said:


> This is it. I think Aus means he starts PCT 1 week after last jab even with longer esters, but might be wrong?
> 
> PCT -
> 
> ...


yes, pretty much that as a starting point- but if you've been on long esters on a long cycle, i'd start the week of the last jab, not the following week.. and you may need to continue the first 2weeks to be the first 4weeks, then do the nolva only in weeks 5-6. This is most likely if you've had no HCG through the cycle, or no clomid..

Often you hear of people saying their PCT didn't work.. but usually its becuase they have done 2-4weeks of PCT... I tend to think 4 weeks is a min...

its not really related to ester length, but length of cycle- 200mg/week of test has been used as the "male pill" in trials- it shut down about 65-70% of men 100% (or near enough) in 12-16 weeks.. only 2% of men where not shut down (so ok, you may be in that 2% and not need PCT)- i've pulled the number from memory, an example of data is here:

http://www.nature.com/nrendo/journal/v2/n1/full/ncpendmet0069.html

look under test enanthate.

Point is thats true for propionate too...its about your overall testosterone level achieved.... test propionate at 200mg/week is actually slightly more effective at raising test levels.. so would shut you down more..

as you can see, the amount of shut down varies... so PCT would need to vary too... it may take longer than 4 weeks.. but why is this a problem< who says PCT must be 4 weeks? could be 5.. or 6 etc.

The summary is- if you're on a 12week+ cycle, start PCT the week of your last jab... and do 4-6weeks of PCT.. even better do clomid THROUGH the cycle to be less shutdown..


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## SonOfZeus (Feb 15, 2009)

I think I'm going for 15 weeks of Test E @ 600mg EW, but I'm going to be running 50mg Clomid EOD on cycle, so figured that PCT would suffice, due to the lesser amount of work required to be done to return me back to normal (due to running the Clomid on cycle.)

Works out easier/cheaper to start PCT straight away as it means you need 2 weeks less of meds to bridge it, but would you not have the problem of the Enanthate still in your system fighting against/still trying to supress your natural test, whilst you're PCT'ing in aim to try and bring it back?


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

SonOfZeus said:


> I think I'm going for 15 weeks of Test E @ 600mg EW, but I'm going to be running 50mg Clomid EOD on cycle, so figured that PCT would suffice, due to the lesser amount of work required to be done to return me back to normal (due to running the Clomid on cycle.)
> 
> correct.
> 
> Works out easier/cheaper to start PCT straight away as it means you need 2 weeks less of meds to bridge it, but would you not have the problem of the Enanthate still in your system fighting against/still trying to supress your natural test, whilst you're PCT'ing in aim to try and bring it back?


ah see thats the magic of clomid- by blocking the signal to the pituitary (as per the OP's diagram), you fool your body into thinking its low in androgen... even when its not... (HCG CANT DO THIS).. so it promotes increase in test, even though you still have enanthate releasing too... so no need to bridge.. and by the time the enanthate wears of.. you still have at least 2weeks of PCT left.. to keep oestrogen under control.. and you should be at normal test levels.. not sub normal, and not have the depression etc..


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## Fatstuff (Mar 2, 2010)

ausbuilt said:


> ah see thats the magic of clomid- by blocking the signal to the pituitary (as per the OP's diagram), you fool your body into thinking its low in androgen... even when its not... (HCG CANT DO THIS).. so it promotes increase in test, even though you still have enanthate releasing too... so no need to bridge.. and by the time the enanthate wears of.. you still have at least 2weeks of PCT left.. to keep oestrogen under control.. and you should be at normal test levels.. not sub normal, and not have the depression etc..


Why isnt this the 'norm' if its that obvious???


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## SonOfZeus (Feb 15, 2009)

Sounds good! Will try and run a log if I'm not feeling like a lazy c*nt, keep you all updated on the ins and outs of what's going on in terms of results, training, diet etc.

Currently 20-25% I reckon, aiming for 9-10% by May, so 4/5 months to drop 10-15% BF.. Hopefully it can be done. Will be running DNP for 4-6 weeks @ 200mg ED with 100mg ED of T4 alongside it. Calories around 2200, protein 230-250, carbs ~100, fats 50-100. Cardio at least 5 times a week, probably AM fasted, 30-60 minutes LISS - maybe throwing in some HIIT here and there!

Hope I can do it.


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

Fatstuff said:


> Why isnt this the 'norm' if its that obvious???


it is pretty common on some other boards.. I have never "invented" anything i've ever written on UKM.. i first came across the clomid approach on both professionalmuscle forum, and in A.L Rea's books...

I think many people missed how clomid really works, I started posting a link (which M118 the OP kind put in his post) which i think graphically shows what many misunderstood when reading about it... as they say, a pic is often worth a 1000words..


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## aj90 (Jul 30, 2011)

If i tried this 50mg clomid EOD whilst on a short 3 week cycle of superdrol would i need a AI? or would it not be worth it?


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## SonOfZeus (Feb 15, 2009)

aj90 said:


> If i tried this 50mg clomid EOD whilst on a short 3 week cycle of superdrol would i need a AI? or would it not be worth it?


Well clomid will not reduce oestrogen in the body, it'll increase it.. and just because you're cycling for 3 weeks, doesn't mean you can't somehow develope gyno / suffer other sides from high estrogen.. So if you're prone to them side effects, of course you should still run an AI during the cycle.

Whether or not it's worth it, is upto you..


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

aj90 said:


> If i tried this 50mg clomid EOD whilst on a short 3 week cycle of superdrol would i need a AI? or would it not be worth it?


my first thought... what can any drug achieve physique wise in 3weeks? Not even oxys/naps will do anything in 3 weeks from an actual gains perspective..

Assuming Superdrol actually has some steroid like activity.... an AI is to prevent gyno; this thread is about using clomid to prevent or at least minimise HPTA shut down, which even on test or deca etc would take longer than 3 weeks...

If Super duper drol or what ever PH you're planning to use is a molecule that can aromatise to eostrogen, then by all means take an AI... if you plan on taking an aromatising drug for 8-12weeks then consider clomid EOD on cycle..

I"m not convinced super duper drol and all the other drols convert to anything useful in the body... as there is no quality control to even assure you what the starting point is...


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

SonOfZeus said:


> Well clomid will not reduce oestrogen in the body, it'll increase it.. and just because you're cycling for 3 weeks, doesn't mean you can't somehow develope gyno / suffer other sides from high estrogen.. So if you're prone to them side effects, of course you should still run an AI during the cycle.
> 
> Whether or not it's worth it, is upto you..


clomid doesn't increase oestrogen, outside of it increases your natural test production, and if you have excess test it aromatises.. clomid does not directly increase oestrogen..


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## SonOfZeus (Feb 15, 2009)

ausbuilt said:


> clomid doesn't increase oestrogen, outside of it increases your natural test production, and if you have excess test it aromatises.. clomid does not directly increase oestrogen..


I never meant it did directly, but as a bi-product of the additional/excess test that results from the inhibition of the feedback loop, as a result of aromatisation.


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

SonOfZeus said:


> I never meant it did directly, but as a bi-product of the additional/excess test that results from the inhibition of the feedback loop, as a result of aromatisation.


OK cool


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## Ukmeathead (Dec 4, 2010)

So im coming to the end of my cycle soon last jab just before new years could i start taking clomid then to stop me feeling like a girl on my pct?


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

Ukmeathead said:


> So im coming to the end of my cycle soon last jab just before new years could i start taking clomid then to stop me feeling like a girl on my pct?


yes.. thats the idea...


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## Fatstuff (Mar 2, 2010)

ausbuilt said:


> it is pretty common on some other boards.. I have never "invented" anything i've ever written on UKM.. i first came across the clomid approach on both professionalmuscle forum, and in A.L Rea's books...
> 
> I think many people missed how clomid really works, I started posting a link (which M118 the OP kind put in his post) which i think graphically shows what many misunderstood when reading about it... as they say, a pic is often worth a 1000words..


I came across an article aaaaages ago which stated about clomid taking during cycle and no use of ai's, i think i posted on here and it got tore apart, but it was that long ago i doubt i can find it again


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

Fatstuff said:


> I came across an article aaaaages ago which stated about clomid taking during cycle and no use of ai's, i think i posted on here and it got tore apart, but it was that long ago i doubt i can find it again


you should def use nolva or an AI.. actually from a TCT perspective, an AI is the better choice with clomid.

As i said, many will rubbish an idea.. but provide no evidence for their view... like c-17 orals frying livers etc, when in fact paracetamol does more damage..


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## aj90 (Jul 30, 2011)

ausbuilt said:


> my first thought... what can any drug achieve physique wise in 3weeks? Not even oxys/naps will do anything in 3 weeks from an actual gains perspective..
> 
> Assuming Superdrol actually has some steroid like activity.... an AI is to prevent gyno; this thread is about using clomid to prevent or at least minimise HPTA shut down, which even on test or deca etc would take longer than 3 weeks...
> 
> ...


a little boost to be honest, users report a good 7lbs in 3 weeks which i would be happy with.

yes thats why im thinking of using clomid on a cycle of cycle to minimize shutdown, which kicks in just 2 weeks on SD.

SD isn't aromatising i don't believe no, the reason i ask is if ill need a AI with the clomid on cycle is a few posts back people were saying clomid can cause gyno..


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## Fatstuff (Mar 2, 2010)

use sd for 4 - 6 weeks mate, no point in 3 weeks and no point in ai or extensive pct imo if at all


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## aj90 (Jul 30, 2011)

will use for 4 if i can hack the sides, the gains fade after 4 weeks anyway i believe.


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

aj90 said:


> a little boost to be honest, users report a good 7lbs in 3 weeks which i would be happy with.
> 
> yes thats why im thinking of using clomid on a cycle of cycle to minimize shutdown, which kicks in just 2 weeks on SD.
> 
> SD isn't aromatising i don't believe no, the reason i ask is if ill need a AI with the clomid on cycle is a few posts back people were saying clomid can cause gyno..


7lb in 3 weeks? damn its better than any other steroid I've come across.. why isn't everyone on it?? LOL

you do realise the anabolic/androgen ratio of the real SD was relative to itself only, and not comparable to any other drug right? (i've posted loads on this before).

Anyway, its your £1.. spend it how you like- but lets put it this way, if it actually worked it would be a prescription item.. no loophole..


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## HVYDUTY100 (Sep 4, 2010)

ausbuilt said:


> ah see thats the magic of clomid- by blocking the signal to the pituitary (as per the OP's diagram), you fool your body into thinking its low in androgen... even when its not... (HCG CANT DO THIS).. so it promotes increase in test, even though you still have enanthate releasing too... so no need to bridge.. and by the time the enanthate wears of.. you still have at least 2weeks of PCT left.. to keep oestrogen under control.. and you should be at normal test levels.. not sub normal, and not have the depression etc..


 So Ausbuilt do you think this throws the idea of blasting and cruising to the side then if you could return normal test levels fairly quickly and avoid the PCT depression.


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

HVYDUTY100 said:


> So Ausbuilt do you think this throws the idea of blasting and cruising to the side then if you could return normal test levels fairly quickly and avoid the PCT depression.


yes and no... its changed my idea of blast/cruise..

As in my cruise is 2g of test and 1.6g of anabolics... for the past 8months... my "blast" is 150mg/day oxys... month on, month off..

think is.. my balls are still at about 70% of original size (yes the Dr has a chain of diff size ball volumes ot compare!!) and I do drop a fair load of pretty normal consistency (as in not clumpy/runny etc that indicates shut down).

of course on a blood test my t levels are well over the range.., SHBG is high, but not out of range.

This was my goal, minimise suppression on year+ cycle (will be about 20months in total when i finish- only to start a family).

However, i may change my cycle a bit in the new year... am considering a variation of Paul Borreson's 1g/day for 2-3 weeks as a blast followed by a low "2g/day" cruise for 6-8 weeks and repeat..

But yes, I don't see the point of cruising on 250mg.. when I can do much higher and keep pretty normal testicular volume..

PS-I'm an old bastard with loads of experience, and have had many blood tests and kept records of temp, BP, BG, HR etc over my cycles.. so I know my body well.. so *NEWBIES>>> wait 'til you've cycled for 5 years before you even think about anything I'm discussing here when it comes to cycles..*


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## Ukmeathead (Dec 4, 2010)

I'm going to sound dumb here, So if I run nolva & clomid from my last jab should I pct for 6weeks including the 2 weeks before I start actual pct? Also what dosage should I use?


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## visionp (Aug 24, 2010)

Empire Boy said:


> How does it increase aromatase activity? By simply increasing the amount of testosterone via its mode of action? So on cycle this would not be a worry obviously...or am I missing something? I can't find studies on how clomiphene citrate directly stimulate an increase in aromatase activity. How is it doing this?


I have seen no research to say that it does increase any aromatase activity.

IMO experience I am gyno prone and always develop small lumps while on cycle whether taking an AI or not. When I start PCT it is gone within 3-4 weeks thus both nolva and clomid are working efficiently enought to prevent estrogen binding at both receptors and hypothalamus.

Now I have been a board member of a couple of a couple of American boards and like Ausbuilt some prefer to use clomid instead of HCG on cycle some eod or some blast it ed mid cycle for 7-10days in hope that it brings the boys back in line raising natural LH levels until the end of cycle.

I agree with the lack of androgens leading to depression coming off cycle and see no reason why clomid would cause this on cycle even on a mid cycle blast with the amount of adrogens floating a round the body.


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## Superhorse (May 29, 2011)

jaspal2626 said:


> Aj raises a valid point here does he not? You would need an ai when using test enthanate due to the aromatization of the excess ostrogen . when using a non aromatizing compound such as sdrol i can't see how the use of clomid would warrant for any need to be accompanied by an ai?


because we are talking about maintaining testicular function rather than managing oestrogen right?


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## m118 (Feb 4, 2011)

ausbuilt said:


> 7lb in 3 weeks? damn its better than any other steroid I've come across.. *why isn't everyone on it?? *LOL
> 
> you do realise the anabolic/androgen ratio of the real SD was relative to itself only, and not comparable to any other drug right? (i've posted loads on this before).
> 
> Anyway, its your £1.. spend it how you like- but lets put it this way, if it actually worked it would be a prescription item.. no loophole..


its one of the harshest orals out there (otc or non-otc). if a legit clone, shutdown can be pretty fast, lethargy bad and uh not sure why else.

i've seen it run 2 ways. typical cycles of 3-4 weeks at 20-30mg/day often yields solid gains. a minority of people run it at 10-20mg/day for 5-6 weeks.


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## m118 (Feb 4, 2011)

Sorry for the delay empire, but here's my 1st look at *The effects of normal aging on the response of the pituitary-gonadal axis to chronic clomiphene administration in men* . J Androl 1991 ; 12 : 258 - 63. Tenover JS , Bremner WJ .

*Key points* (the study can be found posted by empire boy on page 2)

*10 men (5 old and 5 young, white, non smoker/alcoholic)

*Experiment was 8 weeks

* The men were given 50mg clomid BD (twice daily) for the 8 weeks

* Pre-clomid, the only difference in the 2 men of any significance was their inhibin levels. The older men had lower levels. Inhibin down regulates FSH synthesis and inhibits FSH secretion.

* As expected, test/lh/shbg had a tendancy to be lower in the old men, and oestradiol to be higher.

* LH increased significantly in both groups.

* Over the 8 week period, the old men group could not match the levels of the young man group

* The young group's serum test level rose 268% above baseline, while the max of the eldery group was 198%.

* Both groups started with an LH of 32 (micrograms/L). Unless I'm mistaken, they both seem high...

* Old men LH increased to 86 (+/- 40) and the young to 129 (+/-32). (LH is pulsatile but this was allowed for in the study)

* Levels of non-SHBG bound testosterone had a rise of 1400% increase and the old men 512% over baseline.

* Oestradiol increased significantly in both. 360% for young, and 196% for old.

* serum inhibin also increased significantly.

* SHBG did not change significantly in either group from baseline.

* authors postulate there is an age dependant decrease is HPTA function which is why the old men never did as well

* the blood were taken over 8 hrs, not 24.

I couldn't see any reference to side effects.

*In Summary...*

8 weeks, 100mg clomid/day, effective for boosting LH + test in young and old.


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## Mr ziggle (Aug 9, 2011)

So could you use hcg and an ai during a course. Then on day of last injection the start 'standard clomid and nolva pct, as opposed to waiting for the 17 day clearance (test e). This would mean the boys should be fairly back on line by the time the test e clears.

Is that what people are suggesting or do you think clomid all the way through and ditch the hcg.

Thanks


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## Superhorse (May 29, 2011)

the discussion is primarily on using clomid instead of hcg on cycle


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

Mr ziggle said:


> So could you use hcg and an ai during a course. Then on day of last injection the start 'standard clomid and nolva pct, as opposed to waiting for the 17 day clearance (test e). This would mean the boys should be fairly back on line by the time the test e clears.
> 
> Is that what people are suggesting or do you think clomid all the way through and ditch the hcg.
> 
> Thanks


the whole issue is HCG is a bit hit and miss- very wide variety of doses... and it doesnt help keep test elevated through the cycle.. so its a bit of a up/down approach... clomid is easier to make for a smooth approach to keeping natural test up (for the reason see the diagram).


----------



## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

m118 said:


> its one of the harshest orals out there (otc or non-otc). if a legit clone, shutdown can be pretty fast, lethargy bad and uh not sure why else.
> 
> i've seen it run 2 ways. typical cycles of 3-4 weeks at 20-30mg/day often yields solid gains. a minority of people run it at 10-20mg/day for 5-6 weeks.


i know we've crossed swords a few times over PHs.. but i've come to appreciate you as an intelligent contributor since our first debates!

I'm not disputing that PHs could work, as I'm a fan of patrick arnold!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_Arnold

my point is, that the companies making this stuff are unregulated, and I doubt many "drol" clones contain any/or the correct ingredients.. its an issue i have with the sales and manufacturing practices of an unregulated industry, not the chemicals themselves..

that being said, people on pharmaceutical steroids are hard pressed to gain 7ln in 3 weeks... unless its water..


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## SonOfZeus (Feb 15, 2009)

Would not theoretically have your normal levels of test then on Clomid, + the syntetic test? Hence having more test at your disposal? Or would all of the extra likely be aromatized?


----------



## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

jaspal2626 said:


> Oestradiol increased significantly in both. 360% for young, and 196% for old.
> 
> This might sound really dumb but what is Oestradiol. Googled it and its not clear, does this mean estrogen?


Estradiol (E2 or 17?-estradiol, also oestradiol) is a sex hormone. Estradiol is abbreviated E2 as it has 2 hydroxyl groups in its molecular structure. Estrone has 1 (E1) and estriol has 3 (E3). Estradiol is about 10 times as potent as estrone and about 80 times as potent as estriol in its estrogenic effect. Except during the early follicular phase of the menstrual cycle, its serum levels are somewhat higher than that of estrone during the reproductive years of the human female. *Thus it is the predominant estrogen* during reproductive years both in terms of absolute serum levels as well as in terms of *estrogenic activity*. During menopause, estrone is the predominant circulating estrogen and during pregnancy estriol is the predominant circulating estrogen in terms of serum levels. *Estradiol is also present in males*, being *produced as an active metabolic product of testosterone*. The serum levels of estradiol in males (14 - 55 pg/mL) are roughly comparable to those of postmenopausal women (< 35 pg/mL). Estradiol in vivo is interconvertible with estrone; estradiol to estrone conversion being favored. Estradiol has not only a critical impact on reproductive and sexual functioning, but also affects other organs, including the bones.

from:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estradiol


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

SonOfZeus said:


> Would not theoretically have your normal levels of test then on Clomid, + the syntetic test? Hence having more test at your disposal? Or would all of the extra likely be aromatized?


high levels of natural test will cause gyno... you don't need any extra to get gyno


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## SonOfZeus (Feb 15, 2009)

ausbuilt said:


> high levels of natural test will cause gyno... you don't need any extra to get gyno


Ey? Think you misunderstood my question Aus! I mean it like this, let's assume you're body produces 80mg of Test EW (can't remember the actual average figures!)

With clomid, presumebly your body continues to produce this on cycle using 50mg EOD, where as if you didn't your natural production would shut down, let's assume it shuts down do 0mg EW.

So if you were injecting 600mg of Test (whatever form it may be) EW, with Clomid would you then have 600mg synthetic + 80mg natural test? So a total of 680mg Test, opposed to 600mg Synthetic + 0mg contribution from natural test due to being shut down, so a total of 600mg..

So effectively it'd be like running a fractionally higher dose of test? Or have I got this concept completely wrong?


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## aj90 (Jul 30, 2011)

ausbuilt said:


> i know we've crossed swords a few times over PHs.. but i've come to appreciate you as an intelligent contributor since our first debates!
> 
> I'm not disputing that PHs could work, as I'm a fan of patrick arnold!
> 
> ...


same could be said for all these UGL steroids...


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

SonOfZeus said:


> Ey? Think you misunderstood my question Aus! I mean it like this, let's assume you're body produces 80mg of Test EW (can't remember the actual average figures!)
> 
> With clomid, presumebly your body continues to produce this on cycle using 50mg EOD, where as if you didn't your natural production would shut down, let's assume it shuts down do 0mg EW.
> 
> ...


thats right.... so the idea is at least when your synthetic test has decreased over the two weeks... your PCT should be at close to normal, and be at normal in weeks 4-6 at the latest.. so that when the synthetic test is gone, you've never been "sub-normal" test level wise..

and the idea of taking through the cycle.. is you should never be that shut down...



aj90 said:


> same could be said for all these UGL steroids...


100% agree! I've had 2 people pm me this month with "gyno" from taking var & t-bol.... which makes me think they are prob weak methyl test or d-bol.. rather than the more rare and expensive drugs at 50mg/tab...

However, orals aside, most UGLs prob do put test of some dose in their oils.... so what i observe- despite super duper drol clones, with harsh sides etc, and people claiming 7lb in 3 weeks... the AAS users on this board using simple UGL AAS, all seem to carry far more muscle mass than the PH users....

SInce Patrick Arnold IS a damn smart chemist, and started the PH thing, all i can say is i have my doubts that since the USA market (biggest in the world) shut down PH production, i think what is being passed of as PHs these days.. are def not...


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## SonOfZeus (Feb 15, 2009)

Look forward to putting this into practice! Ordered everything ready for my cycle now, just need to get pins/barrels/swabs and I'm ready to start I think, fun begins 8th of January I think! Going to get some 25g 1" pins for quads and some greens to draw, sound alright? Then 2ml syringes as I'm only injecting 2ml EW and a 2ml should have a little bit of extra room in it to aspirate?

Also as I'm running Clomid 50mg EOD and Aromasin 25mg EOD, I presume it makes no odds whatsoever if you take both on the same day or alternate them?


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

SonOfZeus said:


> Look forward to putting this into practice! Ordered everything ready for my cycle now, just need to get pins/barrels/swabs and I'm ready to start I think, fun begins 8th of January I think! Going to get some 25g 1" pins for quads and some greens to draw, sound alright? Then 2ml syringes as I'm only injecting 2ml EW and a 2ml should have a little bit of extra room in it to aspirate?
> 
> Also as I'm running Clomid 50mg EOD and Aromasin 25mg EOD, I presume it makes no odds whatsoever if you take both on the same day or alternate them?


i just get my stuff free at the needle exchange.. only order the 25gx1" as an extra ( though i use the free 25x 5/8" for my rear delts/pecs/abs or calves)

you only need 0.1-0.2 ml room to aspirate- damn obvious if you in a vein, immediate drop of blood in syringe- high pressure in a vein!

yes you can take your AI on same day as clomid, i alternate.. just to take a tab ED>.. LOL


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## SonOfZeus (Feb 15, 2009)

Still debating whether or not just to get them free from boots! Can you get any size needles you want free? And can you have as many as you need? If I could go in once and get all my pins etc for the cycle that'd make life a lot easier!

If you do hit aspirate and there's blood, I presume it's fine to just change the site and try again, injecting the aspirated blood along with the test in the new site?


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

SonOfZeus said:


> Still debating whether or not just to get them free from boots! Can you get any size needles you want free? And can you have as many as you need? If I could go in once and get all my pins etc for the cycle that'd make life a lot easier!
> 
> If you do hit aspirate and there's blood, I presume it's fine to just change the site and try again, injecting the aspirated blood along with the test in the new site?


you can prob get 1-2 packs at first- 20 of everything i think. "red pack" (they are all grey, the writing colour changes) has 23g (for drawing) 25gx 5/8 (ok for rear delt, pecs, abs, calves- for other sites buy 25x1") swabs, 2ml syringes and needle safe. You may try a yellow pack if you want 5ml syringes..

yes, just change needle and site, its your blood so fine to put back in..


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## mark22 (Jul 13, 2011)

18g for drawing and 23g for pushing. Try it.


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## Mr ziggle (Aug 9, 2011)

Ok am convinced. 8th of jan for me too. Gonna swap hcg for clomid throughout and see what happens.

So 50mg eod of clomid and then after last injection up it to 100mg per day and swap ai for nolva. Run pct for 5 weeks so there is a further 2 weeks pct after clearance time. Sound right.

Aus do you take from start or wait a few weeks. I always waited for week 3 to shoot hcg but presume with clomid I would take it from the out set.

Thanks


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## m118 (Feb 4, 2011)

ausbuilt said:


> i know we've crossed swords a few times over PHs.. but i've come to appreciate you as an intelligent contributor since our first debates!
> 
> I'm not disputing that PHs could work, as I'm a fan of patrick arnold!
> 
> ...


Thanks very much for complement. Means a lot coming from someone as experienced/knowledgeable as yourself.

Regarding the PH/DSs... the problem is

1: some of the clones being put out there are poor

2: there are a lot of poor/weak PH/DSs

I highly recommend trying out an SD clone, specifically Megavol, Beastdrol, Methyl-S or Dragon SD. These have the most reliable of the SD clones I've come across. ~£25-30 experiment for the future?


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## m118 (Feb 4, 2011)

My summary of...

Guay AT , Bansal S , Heatley GJ .* Effect of raising endogenous testosterone levels in impotent men with secondary hypogonadism: double blind placebocontrolled trial with clomiphene citrate* . J Clin Endocrinol Metab 1995 ; 80 : 3546 - 52

* Men with complaints of erectile dysfunction for 6 or more months and low serum

free testosterone levels and normal (or unstimulated) serum gonadotropin

levels

* Max accepted test level for the men was 275ng/dL

* MRI imaging of the HPTA was normal, and they all had normal oestradiol SHBG etc...

* 17 men completed the study, had to fill out questionnaires and take the routine blood tests

* During the treatment phase, patients were selected to receive either *clomiphene citrate (50 mg) or a placebo on Monday, Wednesday, and Friday* by computer randomization in double blinded fashion. Patients were given drug A for 8 weeks and, after a washout of 2 weeks, were given drug B for 8 weeks

* Serum levels of LH, FSH, total testosterone, and free testosterone were measured on Friday morning at the *end of the first and second months within 2 h* of taking the last tablet of clomiphene or placebo.

* After each drug was given, the patient was *asked about sexual function and libido* and whether he though drug was activ

* Nocturnal penile testing was also done

* Not sure whether the clomid challenge is important to talk about here.

* The serum level of LH rose from *6.4* +- 1.5 to 10.3 +- 3.5 mIU/mL (-CSD) at 1 month and *10.2* +- 3.1 mIU/mL at 2 months

* The level of serum *total testosterone *was also significant, rising from *237.6* +/- 38.3 to 549.6 +/-131.9 ng/dL at 1 month and to *527.0* +/- 149.9 ng/dL at 2 months.

* The level of serum f*ree testosterone* rose in parallel from *10.0* +- 2.5 to 19.2

+/- 3.9 pg/mL at 1 month and *17.8* +/- 5.0 pg/mL at 2 months

* The questionnaire however showed that neither group could tell which was the active group (bad sign) nor was there any different in nocturnal boners

* authors conclude this study raised test etc.. but did not restore sexual function

*My conclusion*

It's a small study, with no references to side effects, with a clear raise in LH + test but no change in sexual function is a shame


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## SonOfZeus (Feb 15, 2009)

Question for anyone who knows..

Obviously when you run Test, generally speaking you will see a big increase in Libido, would running the Clomid 50mg EOD have any effect on this? Be it an increase or decrease?


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## m118 (Feb 4, 2011)

Guay AT , Jacobson J , Perez JB , Hodge MB , Velasquez E . *Clomiphene increases free testosterone levels in men with both secondary hypogonadism and erectile dysfunction: who does and does not benefi t*? Int J Impot Res 2003 ; 15 : 156 - 65

Key points

* 173 completed a 4-month course of clomiphene citrate, 50mg orally on Monday, Wednesday, and Friday

* A home log was kept in which the couple recorded the number of sexual attempts and successes at intercourse.

* Patients were categorized as having complete, partial, or no response based on self-reported erectile function following clomiphene therapy.

* The mean age of the 173 men was 54.3 y.

* 67 men (*38.7%) had a +ve response* with a regular intercourse completion rate (475%), 63 men (*36.4%) had a partia*l response with an intercourse completion rate of 50-75%, and 43 men (*24.8%) reported no change.*

* The serum *luteinizing hormone* level rose in the responders from *3.3 to 7.7* IU/l , from *4.2 to 7.7* IU/l (partial responders), and from *4.4 to 8.5* IU/l in the nonresponders.

* The serum-*free testosterone* levels rose from *9.3 to 21.2* pg/ml in the responders, from *9.2 to 18.0* pg/ml in the partial responders, and from *9.8 to 17.6 *pg/ml in the nonresponders

* The fact that 39% of men responded completely suggests that testosterone is involved in erectile function.

* A rough quantitation of the minimum amount of total testosterone necessary for nocturnal erections31 indicated that 200 ng/dl of total testosterone was adequate for maximal response.

* *No men reported side effects* caused by clomiphene citrate.

* Owing to its low profile of side effects, clomiphene can be considered as a safe alternative form of shortterm testosterone replacement.

* We recently published our findings concerning testosterone and prostate-specific antigen (PSA) levels.62 The levels

of *PSA *rose with all forms of testosterone treatment, including clomiphene citrate, from 0.2 to 1.2 ng/dl. Therefore, monitoring PSA levels before and after treatment is imperative, even with clomiphene stimulation.

*My Summary*

Again, short term use it has been shown to be effective and relatively safe for boosting lh + test. Age and co-morbidities play a key factor, but the evidence seems to be following a clear trend IMO


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## m118 (Feb 4, 2011)

Next... HCG. I welcome anyone else to dig up some useful studies on efficacy, sides effects, desensitization, dosing protocols etc...


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## Breda (May 2, 2011)

Good read


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## m118 (Feb 4, 2011)

2 members here are running oral only cycles with the 50mg clomid eod plan.

http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/pro-hormones/159628-sd-matrix-stano-log-osta-pct.html

http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/pro-hormones/158764-sdrol-stano-log-not-sponsored-4.html

Both are running 2 of the most suppressive/powerful steroids around and they're logging their progress. Will be interesting to see how they turn out


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## m118 (Feb 4, 2011)

On a side note, this got me thinking...

Looking at the studies, and how the rise in lh/test is gradual what do you guys think of running the 50mg eod say 1-2 months BEFORE a cycle starts and continuing throughout. So not only is it at full swing in your system but in theory starting off with considerably higher natural test before you start which might help mitigate the hpta shutdown/crash in PCT. What do you think?


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Not read all the posts, got to page 4.

Clomid during the cycle will not keep the testicles alive, nor the pituitary.

When androgens are above base levels, clomid wont work.

It works when androgens are low.

Clomid has mild estorgenic effects at the HP axis whereas nolva does not.

Some call this estrogen priming.

HCG will keep the leydig cells stimulated, not the sertoli cells (FSH).

Clomid stimulates both only when androgens are near normal levels.

One need to look at the nolvadex many used for gyno prevention running during cycle, if it was so that nolva stimulates pituitary, then recovery would be easy.

It does not.


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

hackskii said:


> Not read all the posts, got to page 4.
> 
> Clomid during the cycle will not keep the testicles alive, nor the pituitary.
> 
> ...


i agree.. i always thought the nolvadex was to allow natural oestrogen to stabilise and not call gyno after using an AI to help clomid ...

the same arguement about clomid not stimulating owing to high androgens/pituitrary interaction can be levelled at HCG which only mimics LH... but doesnt block the oestrogen signal to the pituitary..


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Nolva years ago was for gyno prevention, with the easy accessibility to AI's, that would make them almost obsolete.

Clomid usedto be used exclusively for PCT.

Androgens are suppressive, even in light of no aromitization, shutdown occurs.


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## infernal0988 (Jun 16, 2011)

So after about page 3 i stopped reading , nr cause im a lazy cawnt Nr 2 cause its late and im tired :bounce: But from what i have read is clomid better on cycle and Hcg better for PCT ? Along side say Nolvadex ?


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

No, clomid wont do anything during cycle to keep or maintain the HPTA.

HCG will help to maintain testicular function but not the pituitary on cycle.


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## infernal0988 (Jun 16, 2011)

so what then would be the best solution to maximize your recovery and overall natural hormone levels? In other words whats the best pct and on cycle option`?


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Best option would be to use an AI with all aromitizable steroids.

Use HCG throughout the cycle.

Keep the cycles tame.

Use SERMS post cycle to fire pituitary once you have kept testicular function during your cycle.

Now to be fair, for fertility issues, all above does not stand true.

If one was to try and keep stuff rolling then naltrexone would be something to consider, but not with tren, or deca cycles.

For instance, anadrol does not aromitize, yet is quite supressive, same with M1T cycles.

So, you can see manipulating estrogen would offer better bang for the buck keeping that in check, but not shutdown.

Estrogen is aprox 200 times more supressive than testosterone, but when the numbers are very high, all bets are off.


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

hackskii said:


> Best option would be to use an AI with all aromitizable steroids.
> 
> Use HCG throughout the cycle.
> 
> ...


well the way I read it, clomid does work via an oestrogen feedback loop, as clomid stimilates LH release, via INCREASED FSH)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luteinizing_hormone (see under action)

where's this business about androgens and the pituitary??

all i see is info like:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12142224

where oestrogen suppresses gnrh, but clomid does the opposite, hence allowing increase of FSH...


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## m118 (Feb 4, 2011)

hackskii said:


> *Clomid actually does not block the negative feedback loop.*
> 
> Clomid makes GnRH receptors in the pituitary more sensitive.
> 
> ...


A few quotes I found that might be interesting...

*How does Clomid "stimulate" testosterone production at the end of the cycle?*

It really doesn't. Rather, by acting as an estrogen receptor antagonist, it reduces the inhibition that results from elevated estradiol levels. This helps return LH to normal levels, which helps testosterone to return to normal levels (if the testicles have not atrophied).

*
Can Clomid, taken throughout a cycle, completely eliminate inhibition?*

I do not believe so. There is also androgenic inhibition mediated by the androgen receptor, which has nothing to do with the estrogen receptor. Androgenic inhibition is unavoidable and cannot be helped by estrogen receptor antagonists. However, use of Clomid throughout a cycle can definitely reduce the degree of the inhibition and allow a speedier recovery at the end of the cycle.''

http://www.mesomorphosis.com/articles/pharmacology/anti-aromatases-versus-estrogen-antagonists.htm by Bill Roberts

Clomiphene is classified as a selective-estrogen receptor-modulator (SERM) due to its ability to *compete with estradiol for estrogen receptors at the level of the hypothalamus.* Clomiphene *blocks the normal negative feedback of circulating estradiol *on the hypothalamus, preventing estrogen from lowering the output of gonadotropin releasing hormone (GnRH). During clomiphene therapy, the frequency and amplitude of GnRH pulses increase and stimulate the pituitary gland to release more FSH and LH.

http://www.mesomorphosis.com/articles/scally/ask-michael-scally.htm#ixzz1hXQccGwJ by Micahel Scally MD


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

m118 said:


> A few quotes I found that might be interesting...
> 
> *How does Clomid "stimulate" testosterone production at the end of the cycle?*
> 
> ...


and yes, clomid stimulates gnrh- its not directly acting on the testes, but it causes fsh to rise, which releases LH... which stimulates testes- which is the natural order of things..

good posts.. I agree clomid cant STOP inhibition... just reduce the severity through the cycle, so PCT is more effective...


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## infernal0988 (Jun 16, 2011)

so if i get this right then hcg through out the cycle then stop hcg as soon as i start clomid?


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## SonOfZeus (Feb 15, 2009)

Not sure if Clomid is actually making me feel depressed.. Been more down than usual last few days.. Taking it 50mg EOD. It's christmas day, and I can't be f*cked. Haven't spoke to family or anything! Hmm. :wacko: Hopefully when Test kicks in it'll offset this if this is the cause, can't feel like this all the way through the cycle!


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## infernal0988 (Jun 16, 2011)

this is a little out of subject but iv read that T3 was used on patients with Bipolar depression , and since i have Bipolar depression this is very interesting to me.

T3 in the treatment of depressive disorders

The addition of triiodothyronine to existing treatments such as SSRIs is one of the most widely studied augmentation strategies for refractory depression,[9] however success may depend on the dosage of T3. An uncontrolled long-term study by Kelly and Lieberman of 17 patients with major refractory unipolar depression found that 14 patients showed improvement of symptoms over an average timespan of two years, in some cases with higher doses of T3 than the traditional 50 mcg required to achieve therapeutic effect, with an average of 80 mcg and a dosage span of 24 months;dose range:25mcg-150mcg.[9] The same authors published a retrospective study of 125 patients with three categories of bipolar disorder (I, II and NOS) whose treatment had previously been resistant to an average of 14 other medications. They found that 84% experienced improvement and 33% experienced full remission. None of the patients experienced hypomania while on T3


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## SonOfZeus (Feb 15, 2009)

Infact I might stop the clomid for now, see how I feel.. If mood lifts, I'm not sure if I'll continue to use it. Would rather HCG but can't store it at uni.


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## infernal0988 (Jun 16, 2011)

will make a new thread of my statement


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## m118 (Feb 4, 2011)

infernal0988 said:


> will make a new thread of my statement


Good idea since it has no relevance to the thread.


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## Superhorse (May 29, 2011)

ausbuilt said:


> and yes, clomid stimulates gnrh- its not directly acting on the testes, but it causes fsh to rise, which releases LH... which stimulates testes- which is the natural order of things..
> 
> good posts.. I agree clomid cant STOP inhibition... just reduce the severity through the cycle, so PCT is more effective...


more to the point, you have put this theory to test on yourself so how has it gone? are those balls still active at all?


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

There are some misconceptions on this thread that probably should be cleared up.

First, all studies on clomid are done with men with depressed testosterone levels, so extrapolating conclusions with guys on gear suggesting "block the negative feedback loop on cycle" with the use of clomid are just wrong.

Clomid does bump FSH levels, but this statement is not true:"it causes fsh to rise, which releases LH"

Clomid is used to determine if one is secondary acquired hypogonadism.

In fact at 100mg ED after 5 to 7 days clomid can double LH output and increase FSH from 20% to 50%

More things than just estrogen suppress, my point that androgen's suppress is correct.

In fact, DHT is approx 3 to 5 times more androgenic than testosterone, you take enough of that and you will get suppression, anadrol for instance does not aromitise, yet highly suppresses the HPTA.

On cycle clomid will not keep the HPTA in tact, even if you use an AI.

Clomid acts as an estrogen at the hypothalamus, whereas nolva does not.

Both being very similar I feel and always have that clomid works better alone than nolva, some feel it is the estrogen priming in the hypothalamus that does this.

Bill said this, and for the most part I agree but an AI would work far better than clomid as estrogen is approx 200 times more supressive than testosterone:

*Androgenic inhibition is unavoidable and cannot be helped by estrogen receptor antagonists*. However, use of Clomid throughout a cycle can definitely reduce the degree of the inhibition and allow a speedier recovery at the end of the cycle.''

So would an AI.

Shutdown happens at the pituitary, and testes.

Cant stimulate pituitary during a cycle with clomid, but you can with naltrexone.

You can stimulate the testes on cycle with the use of HCG, but that wont stimulate the sertoli cells as this would require FSH which HCG does not have.

HMG on the other hand has both LH and FSH,

So, after or during a cycle leydig cells can be stimulated making recovery post cycle easier with HCG, but for fertility sake sperm is really compromised, even moreso with the use of HCG.

So, recap.

If you want to minimize shutdown with a cycle that does aromitise, use an AI (remember the 200 times more suppression with estrogen than testosterone).

HCG throughout the cycle, wait till there is no influence with endogenous gear, then use a SERM for PCT.

Only thing I know of that would keep things rolling on cycle would be naltrexone, and even that, use of deca or tren would toss that one out the window, all bets are off.

Deca cycles are super suppressive, low androgenic, low estrogenic sides, yet crushing to the HPTA, neither clomid, nor an AI would do anything to aid in recovery during the cycle, but HCG.


----------



## SonOfZeus (Feb 15, 2009)

So are you saying that Clomid DOESN'T prevent shutdown of the HPTA at all... But not arguing that it keeps Leydig cells stimulated with a constant release of LH via the inhibtion of the feedback loop, thus prevent the testis from shutting down natural production and undergoing atrophy as a result?

Any idea why Clomid can cause depression?


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

SonOfZeus said:


> So are you saying that Clomid DOESN'T prevent shutdown of the HPTA at all... But not arguing that it keeps Leydig cells stimulated with a constant release of LH via the inhibtion of the feedback loop, thus prevent the testis from shutting down natural production and undergoing atrophy as a result?
> 
> Any idea why Clomid can cause depression?


For a cycle of lets say deca or tren? NO

And no more than an AI, and an AI would be better anyway due to it lowering all estrogen in the body.

On cycle you cant stop suppression, but minimize the degree using an AI and HCG.

It wont keep LH function on cycle.

It will stimulate LH function post cycle as long as the influence of exogenous steroids are not present.

Clomid can cause depression in some, never did with me, but then again I do feel most likely cause is a drop in androgen's, classic signs of hypogonadism post cycle.


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## SonOfZeus (Feb 15, 2009)

How does it not increase LH on cycle?


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## dr gonzo (Oct 8, 2011)

SonOfZeus said:


> How does it not increase LH on cycle?


 Hackskii no's wat hes talking about m8


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## m118 (Feb 4, 2011)

hackskii said:


> There are some misconceptions on this thread that probably should be cleared up.
> 
> First, all studies on *clomid are done with men with depressed testosterone levels, *so extrapolating conclusions with guys on gear suggesting "block the negative feedback loop on cycle" with the use of clomid are just wrong.
> 
> ...


A few things

1: Glad to be discussing the merits for and against clomid

2: Tenover JS , Bremner WJ . The effects of normal aging on the response of the pituitary-gonadal axis to chronic clomiphene administration in men .

J Androl 1991 ; 12 : 258 - 63. In this experiment, clomid was administered to healthy eugonadal old and young men. not hypogonadal.

3: I competely agree that androgens do suppress the HPTA which is something I referred to in a much earlier post with me being unsure of how the androgens would compete with the clomid's oestrogen blocking effect at the hypothalamus.

4: I could be wrong with how I'm interpreting the posts but, as posted earlier ...

''Clomiphene is classified as a selective-estrogen receptor-modulator (SERM) due to its ability to *compete with estradiol for estrogen receptors *at the level of the hypothalamus. *Clomiphene blocks the normal negative feedback of circulating estradiol* on the hypothalamus, preventing estrogen from lowering the output of gonadotropin releasing hormone (GnRH). During clomiphene therapy, the frequency and amplitude of GnRH pulses increase and stimulate the pituitary gland to release more FSH and LH.

http://www.mesomorphosis.com/article...#ixzz1hXQccGwJ by Micahel Scally MD ''

Is Michael Scally wrong in your opinion on how clomid works?

5: Both I, and I'm sure the other here, would agree that HCG is effective at maintaining testicular function on cycle, but its a good idea to discuss novel uses of existing compounds whether they're successful or not, it stimulates us to learn more on the subject.

6: On a side note, I wonder how well running clomid on cycle would work with an AM only approach with a short acting oral....


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## SonOfZeus (Feb 15, 2009)

dr gonzo said:


> Hackskii no's wat hes talking about m8


lol.. I know that, I'm just asking him to explain so I can understand for myself why. Trying to learn, I'm not ever going to assume I know more than Hackskii! :lol:


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

dr gonzo said:


> Hackskii no's wat hes talking about m8


really? I like hackskii, so its nothing personal, but there some interpretation here I'm not comfortable is correct... see below:



m118 said:


> A few things
> 
> 1: Glad to be discussing the merits for and against clomid
> 
> ...


No you didn't misread that.. thats my point exactly....

It's why I asked earlier for any references-most of this stuff never directly applies to men, so its often inference of findings- my reading of the situation is as per your post above.

I'm not saying clomid is better than HCG or vice versa- i just don't see where the androgen suppression comes in to stop the effects of clomid- and if this WAS the case, why wouldnt the same issue affect HCG?

I looked at this:

http://joe.endocrinology-journals.org/content/122/2/519.short

its a rat study which I hate.. your M1118s studies are more appropriate.. GOOD FIND..

I was hoping Hackskii could point me to some studies that support his statements....


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

SonOfZeus said:


> How does it not increase LH on cycle?


It does not because LH is the chemical switch to turn testosterone in the leydig cells.

If androgens are high, no switch will turn it on, manipulating estrogen at this point will not fool the pituitary into keeping firing.



m118 said:


> A few things
> 
> 1: Glad to be discussing the merits for and against clomid
> 
> ...


Mike is not wrong, he is correct, between the SERMS clomid acts as an estrogen at the hypothalamus level, yet nolva does not.

Clomiphene is a combination of racemic isomers, enclomiphene and zuclomiphene, which may have different pharmacokinetic and pharmacodynamic parameters that have not been completely elucidated. *Zuclomiphene is thought to be the more estrogenic isomer.*

Mike is the doc I talked to years ago about a recovery protocol and I have his posts along with all his information on Docs Protocol here:

http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/steroid-testosterone-information/13764-here-docs-protocol-hpta-recovery.html

I have many studies on clomid and men boosting LH, recovery and the like.

Endocrinologists use the clomid stimulation test to diagnose secondary acquired hypogonadism.

Manipulating estrogen is nothing new to bump T levels, a TRT doctor named Eugene Shippen has used adex for years with men that have excessive aromatase activity to lower estrogen to favor higher T to E levels.



ausbuilt said:


> I'm not saying clomid is better than HCG or vice versa- i just don't see where the androgen suppression comes in to stop the effects of clomid- and if this WAS the case, why wouldnt the same issue affect HCG?


It cant be the same.

HCG is an LH analog that directly stimulates the leydig cells, even in the light of a cycle where androgens are well above upper levels, it directly stimulates the testicles.

Clomid on the other hand does stimulate the pituitary to bump more LH levels, but if levels of androgens are off the chart the body does not need higher LH levels they already have high androgen levels so no LH needs to be released.

Consider this, a casterated male has very high LH levlels.

Why?

Because the pituitary is trying to get a response from the testicles, which of course are not there.

On cycle the body knows there are high levels of androgens and even using clomid, the body wont signal the release because androgens are already high.

HCG is totally different because it directly stimulates them.

Nolva has been used on cycle for probably 20 years for gyno prevention.

If nolva stimulated the pituitary then why would guys need PCT?

Because it does not work that way, clomid on cycle as Mr. Roberts suggested 2 pages ago wont save your nuts, his suggestion was it might help recovery, and DUH, with estrogen being approx 200 times more suppressive than testosterone this is why everyone suggests an AI and not clomid.

This debate is probably 10 years old, I have seen it forever.

Sorry, clomid on cycle will not keep HPTA function.

HCG on cycle can keep or help keep testicular function in regards to endogenous testosterone production, but fertility.


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## SonOfZeus (Feb 15, 2009)

But then by that logic, surely the testicles would undergo atrophy, especially on extended use of AAS without HCG..? I don't know of anyone other then Aus who's used high doses of AAS and run Clomid 50mg EOD, but I presume Aus hasn't experienced atrophy as a result hence why he reccomends it.. Any comment on this from your experience Aus?

If he hasn't experienced decreased testicular size and/or atrophy, what else would explain this? Especially given the doses he runs, surely this cannot be by chance?


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

SonOfZeus said:


> But then by that logic, surely the testicles would undergo atrophy, especially on extended use of AAS without HCG..? I don't know of anyone other then Aus who's used high doses of AAS and run Clomid 50mg EOD, but I presume Aus hasn't experienced atrophy as a result hence why he reccomends it.. Any comment on this from your experience Aus?
> 
> If he hasn't experienced decreased testicular size and/or atrophy, what else would explain this? Especially given the doses he runs, surely this cannot be by chance?


Leydig cells only comprise about 10% of the mass in the testicles, so as you can see one could have almost no atrophy yet produce testosterone that of a woman post cycle.

Testicles do atrophy on cycle, depending on dose, which gear, time on all affect this.

Using the argument that clomid which is a SERM which manipulates estrogen will keep the HPTA in tact only need to look at some of the most suppressive drugs used which do not aromitise do inhibit the HPTA.

On a cycle of lets say M1T for instance would at the end probably have low estrogen levels because M1T does not aromtize yet endogenous levels of estrogen would be low due to lack of endogenous testosterone production, yet shutdown can be severe with M1T, same with tren, deca, anadrol, etc.

If estrogen was the sole inhibitor of the HPTA then fine, inhibit estrogen and you wont shut down, but that clearly is wrong.

High androgens and anabolics shut down, clomid wont do jack to keep that rolling, as said before naltrexone would work, but that is another topic all together.

This debate is more than 10 years old, I have seen every single article that Scally wrote on clomid, I have numerous studies with clomid and it is my number one choice for SERM to use as a stand alone.

90% of all test boosting products manipulate estrogen via way of a SERM, or an AI, or a combination of both.

There is not one study that confirms clomids use with a person using steroids stops the inhibition of the HPTA.

If someone told me that clomid stopped testicular atrophy on cycle I would probably just laugh.

Not everyone gets atrophy, but that does not mean that inhibition of testicular function is not present.

As suggested a few posts ago, using it in the morning to bump natty levels EOD protocol does not hold water, half life of clomid is 5 days so EOD day use wont make much of a difference anyway.

I actually am all for orals and pulsing protocols for in and out with very low shutdown, but that in itself is a topic for another discussion.

Porn stimulates LH levels, why not watch that while on cycle?


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

The study on rats does not fit here.

First of all, nobody is castrated nor using GnRH agonist or antagonists.

The question is this: Does the use of clomid during a steroid cycle aid in recovery of, or maintain the HPTA during AAS use?

My answer is this: no more than an AI or any other SERM.

Actually I feel clomid would not keep or maintain testicular function, and thus suggest it would be worthless.

At least HCG keeps one part of the equation intact, keeping testicular function and at the very least leydig cell sensitivity.


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## Ahal84 (Jun 2, 2010)

I tell you what this is an awesome thread!


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## BIG BUCK (Mar 26, 2010)

Great thread but for someone less educated than aus or hack, it's hard to make a decision. I'm on doctor prescribed hrt(nebido) plus self administred test at 250 ew and my man seeds seem to tighten up and shrink upto 50% smaller(last bloods showed very low lh and fsh), so i'm looking for something to use long term to bring them back! I use adex eod already.

Still watching this with great interest but it seems like i may have to try hcg for 6 months then change it for clomid for 6 months and gauge things myself.


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## C.Hill (Nov 21, 2010)

BB2 said:


> Great thread but for someone less educated than aus or hack, it's hard to make a decision. I'm on doctor prescribed hrt(nebido) plus self administred test at 250 ew and my man seeds seem to tighten up and shrink upto 50% smaller(last bloods showed very low lh and fsh), so i'm looking for something to use long term to bring them back! I use adex eod already.
> 
> Still watching this with great interest but it seems like i may have to try hcg for 6 months then change it for clomid for 6 months and gauge things myself.


Does the doc prescribe adex eod? What dose you running it at? Didn't think that adex eod was necessary unless on heavy short estered cycles. Would probs cut it back to 0.5mg e3-4d, you don't want to lower estrogen too much.

If I was in your position now I would start shooting hcg 1000iu ew, it's fantastic stuff it really is, youll be dangling in no time


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## BIG BUCK (Mar 26, 2010)

C.Hill said:


> Does the doc prescribe adex eod? What dose you running it at? Didn't think that adex eod was necessary unless on heavy short estered cycles. Would probs cut it back to 0.5mg e3-4d, you don't want to lower estrogen too much.
> 
> If I was in your position now I would start shooting hcg 1000iu ew, it's fantastic stuff it really is, youll be dangling in no time


no, i obtain the adex myself and at the mo take 1mg eod, because my last blood test showed my estrogen being 247! so for a month the adex will remain high.

3 weeks ago i started injecting hcg at 1500ius a week but last week i spoke with aus and he said to drop the hcg and start clomid at 50mg ed as my balls are half there original size.

My balls are dangling more now and would hope that is a sign of things to come.

So now i'm confused, hcg or clomid whilst on a very long cycle?

To make things even more confusing i saw an endo for the first time a month ago and she says that i prehaps should never have been put on hrt as the bloods were not take first thing in the morning and fsh and lh werent taken! Great! I wouldn't have even started gear if it wasn't for the doc saying i was low on test!


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## C.Hill (Nov 21, 2010)

BB2 said:


> no, i obtain the adex myself and at the mo take 1mg eod, because my last blood test showed my estrogen being 247! so for a month the adex will remain high.
> 
> 3 weeks ago i started injecting hcg at 1500ius a week but last week i spoke with aus and he said to drop the hcg and start clomid at 50mg ed as my balls are half there original size.
> 
> ...


Hmmm....sounds like a lot of shabby guess work lol 1mg adex eod gives me terrible hot flushes lol makes me feel like shít.

If your balls are hanging fine on clomid eod i would just carry on with it if it's working


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

BB2 said:


> I'm on doctor prescribed hrt(nebido) plus self administred test at 250 ew and my man seeds seem to tighten up and shrink upto 50% smaller(*last bloods showed very low lh and fsh*), so i'm looking for something to use long term to bring them back! *I use adex eod already.*
> 
> Still watching this with great interest but it seems like i may have to try hcg for 6 months then change it for clomid for 6 months and gauge things myself.


AI's tend to bump test levels up as well.

So, if your test was with your use of an AI which showed depressed LH, and FSH, you need to look no further than your own numbers.

Fail.

An AI would work very similar to clomid during cycle, if this is the case, you already have your answer.



BB2 said:


> So now i'm confused, hcg or clomid whilst on a very long cycle?


HCG on cycle, clomid post cycle.

Running clomid is pointless to return, or keep your HPTA in tact.

There are other hormones than estrogen that are suppressive to the HPTA, DHT, prolactin, progestin's, androgens, even high cortisol levels, hell even hypothyroid lowers T production, and winstrol can cause hypothyroid.


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## BIG BUCK (Mar 26, 2010)

Thank you Hackskii, IF i stay permanatley on hrt then clomid is no use to me at all?

And if i take test at 250 ew for ever should i just come to terms that my testicles wo'nt be the exact same size?


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

hackskii said:


> hell even hypothyroid lowers T production, and winstrol can cause hypothyroid.


never heard this before! any evidence?


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## Ben Stiller (Nov 24, 2011)

I like this thread so I looked into this a little. If the hypothesis that clomid could somehow reduce the inhibition of the HPTA cycle during AAS use by blocking estrogen in the pituitary, you would expect less HPTA inhibition with non aromatizing AAS or when using a strong AI during AAS use, since there would be less estrogen to inhibit HPTA. This is not the case. Androgens suppress without estrogenic activity as has been stated here. Bill Robert's case study on short esters 2 weeks on 4 weeks off showed normal estrogen level but 90% reduction in baseline T levels. It's on mesomorphosis. Negative feedback of FSH is linked to estrogen but LH is reduced by estrogens and androgens both. So T levels drop in the presence of higher levels of androgens regardless of the estrogenic properties of the different AAS used. In this regard I don't see much use for clomid on cycle, unless it would somehow keep the hypothalamus active, without the LH actually increasing test? This seems unlikely.

I think keeping total estrogen under control on cycle and during pct and restoring leydig cell activity as soon as possible after AAS are better options to a quick recovery, along with shorter cycles. After having been on (500mg TE ew) for three years straight I was within normal range on all markers within three months using HCG, exemestane and tamoxifen. PCT and HPTA restoration is highly individual.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

BB2 said:


> Thank you Hackskii, IF i stay permanatley on hrt then clomid is no use to me at all?
> 
> And if i take test at 250 ew for ever should i just come to terms that my testicles wo'nt be the exact same size?


Correct, no use at all, other than the potential for ocular toxicity over time from the use of clomid.

250 a week would result in testicular atrophy, how much is individual.



ausbuilt said:


> never heard this before! any evidence?


http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=1266674

Yes, much.

Men with primary hypothyroidism have subnormal responses of luteinizing hormone (LH) to gonadotropin-releasing hormone (GnRH) administration and normal response to human chorionic gonadotropin (hCG).

Free testosterone concentrations are reduced in men with primary hypothyroidism and thyroid hormone replacement normalizes free testosterone concentrations.

Hypothyroidism also can cause insulin resistance which could cause some reduction in T production.

Have a look around, you will find what you are looking for.


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

hackskii said:


> Hypothyroidism also can cause insulin resistance which could cause some reduction in T production.
> 
> Have a look around, you will find what you are looking for.


no that part i found- i cant find anything about stanozolol (winstrol) causing hypothyroidism..


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

I cant find the info at the moment, Mars has posted on that one before.


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## Mars (Aug 25, 2007)

Nice posts Hacks, been trying to explain this myself but i'm not that good in writing it down suffice to say (as i said before) clomid will NOT influence the negative feedback loop in the ways that these guys think it will whilst on cycle, if it did we wouldn't all be so concerned about waiting for the androgens to clear the system before starting PCT.

I am trying to sway ppl away from this practice (not to difficult hopefully when i have now had two PM's about guys feeling moody and depressed over xmas using this clomid protocol) and to stick with HCG on cycle (which has many positive benefits, unlike clomid) hopefully your posts will help.

Hopefully people will realise also that the links that a few guys keep posting are NOT relevant to the argument they are trying to get across.

This is probably just a flash in the pan like it was before a few years back and i'm sure in another few years will be just that again.

PS: i posted on stan and hypothyroid, i'll try find it.


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## m118 (Feb 4, 2011)

The best bit about this thread is that's it actually got people discussing the merits of each and not just following either blindly. And it's been an excellent source of info for information directly and indirectly concerning clomid in men, and hcg use.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Studies are great, here are some on clomid.

I always suggest clomid post cycle, many reasons why.

*Here's a study showing low-dose Clomid therapy (25mg ED) boosts testosterone by 250% in 4-6 weeks:*

Clomiphene citrate effects on testosterone/estrogen ratio in male hypogonadism, Shabsigh A, Kang Y, Shabsign R, Gonzalez M, Liberson G, Fisch H, Goluboff E. Department of Urology, NY Presbyterian Medical Center, New York, NY, USA. J Sex Med. 2005 Sep;2(5):716-21.

AIM: Symptomatic late-onset hypogonadism is associated not only with a decline in serum testosterone, but also with a rise in serum estradiol. These endocrine changes negatively affect libido, sexual function, mood, behavior, lean body mass, and bone density. Currently, the most common treatment is exogenous testosterone therapy. This treatment can be associated with skin irritation, gynecomastia, nipple tenderness, testicular atrophy, and decline in sperm counts. In this study we investigated the efficacy of clomiphene citrate in the treatment of hypogonadism with the objectives of raising endogenous serum testosterone (T) and improving the testosterone/estrogen (T/E) ratio. METHODS: Our cohort consisted of 36 Caucasian men with hypogonadism defined as serum testosterone level less than 300 ng/dL. Each patient was treated with a daily dose of 25 mg clomiphene citrate and followed prospectively. Analysis of baseline and follow-up serum levels of testosterone and estradiol levels were performed.

RESULTS: The mean age was 39 years, and the mean pretreatment testosterone and estrogen levels were 247.6 +/- 39.8 ng/dL and 32.3 +/- 10.9, respectively. By the first follow-up visit (4-6 weeks), the mean testosterone level rose to 610.0 +/- 178.6 ng/dL (P < 0.00001). Moreover, the T/E ratio improved from 8.7 to 14.2 (P < 0.001). There were no side effects reported by the patients.

CONCLUSIONS: Low dose clomiphene citrate is effective in elevating serum testosterone levels and improving the testosterone/estradiol ratio in men with hypogonadism.This therapy represents an alternative to testosterone therapy by stimulating the endogenous androgen production pathway.

*Study showing a hypogonadic 30-year old male, suffering permanent shutdown from steroid abuse, fully recovered natural hormone levels and HPTA function from 2 months of 100mg Clomid therapy:*

Use of clomiphene citrate to reverse premature andropause secondary to steroid abuse, Tan RS, Vasudevan D.

Department of Family and Community Medicine, University of Texas Health Sciences Center, Houston, Texas 77030, USA.

OBJECTIVE: To report a case of symptomatic hypogonadism induced by the abuse of multiple steroid preparations that was subsequently reversed by clomiphene. DESIGN: Case report. SETTING: University-affiliated andrology practice within family practice clinic. PATIENT(S): A 30-year-old male.

INTERVENTION(S): Clomiphene citrate, 100-mg challenge for 5 days, followed by treatment at same dose for 2 months.

MAIN OUTCOME MEASURE(S): Clinical symptoms, androgen decline in aging male questionnaire, total T, FSH, LH.

RESULT(S): Reversal of symptoms, normalization of T levels with LH surge, restoration of pituitary-gonadal axis.

CONCLUSION(S): Clomiphene citrate is used typically in helping to restore fertility in females. This represents the first case report of the successful use of clomiphene to restore T levels and the pituitary-gonadal axis in a male patient. The axis was previously shut off with multiple anabolic steroid abuse.

*Here's another study showing only 7 days of Clomid therapy increased total testosterone by 100% and, more importantly, free testosterone by over 300% in young men:*

The effects of aging in normal men on bioavailable testosterone and luteinizing hormone secretion: response to clomiphene citrate, J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 1987 Dec;65(6):1118-26.

Geriatric Research, Education, and Clinical Center, Veterans Administration Medical Center, Seattle, Washington.

Serum testosterone (T) levels in men decline with age while serum LH levels, as measured by RIA, increase. To assess if the decline in serum T levels in healthy aging men is paralleled by an age-related decline in the bioavailable non-sex hormone-binding globulin (SHBG)-bound fraction of T and to determine whether there are age-related changes in LH secretion or LH control of T production, we studied 29 young (aged 22-35 yr) and 26 elderly (aged 65-84 yr) healthy men. All men had single random blood samples drawn, and 14 men in each age group underwent frequent blood sampling for 24 h, both before and after 7 days of clomiphene citrate (CC) administration. Both mean 24-h serum total T levels and non-SHBG-bound T were reduced in elderly men compared to those in young men (P less than 0.05), while estradiol and SHBG levels were similar in the 2 age groups. Serum FSH determined by RIA and LH by RIA and bioassay were higher in the elderly men compared to those in young men (P less than 0.05), but the ratios of LH bioactivity to immunoreactivity and the LH pulse frequency and amplitude were similar. After CC administration, mean serum total T and non-SHBG-bound levels in young men increased by 100% and 304%, respectively, while in older men these values increased by only 32% and 8%, respectively. However, CC-stimulated LH pulse characteristics and serum levels of estradiol, SHBG, FSH, and bioactive and immunoreactive LH were similar in the 2 groups. Thus, both at baseline and after CC stimulation, elderly men had significantly lower serum total T and non-SHBG-bound (bioavailable) T levels than did young men, despite similar or increased levels of bioactive LH and similar bioactive to immunoreactive LH ratios and LH pulse characteristics. These results suggest that major age-related changes in the hypothalamic-pituitary-testicular axis occur at the level of the testes and are manifested by decreased responsiveness to bioactive LH. Administration of CC to young and elderly men resulted in similar changes in LH pulse characteristics and LH bioactivity and immunoreactivity, suggesting preserved hypothalamic-pituitary responsiveness in the elderly.

Clomid works awesome for what it does.

Using this tool for what we need it for works well.

But on cycle using an AI makes by far the best choice.

Using clomid for PCT makes good sense as well.

Sometimes we take a bit of information on paper and apply it to real life.

In this case, clomid does not work how we would like.


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## m118 (Feb 4, 2011)

Nice post. Again, I'm seeing a positive impact on the T:E ratio, and no reports of side effects (including mood problems/depression).

I suspect based on the number of threads on TRT, and the few GPs I speak to, that clomid is very rarely considered before moving to injectables for TRT.


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## infernal0988 (Jun 16, 2011)

thats all the proof i need , clomid only PCT from now on.


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## m118 (Feb 4, 2011)

hackskii said:


> *Here's another study showing only 7 days of Clomid therapy increased total testosterone by 100% and, more importantly, free testosterone by over 300% in young men:*
> 
> The effects of aging in normal men on bioavailable testosterone and luteinizing hormone secretion: response to clomiphene citrate, J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 1987 Dec;65(6):1118-26.
> 
> ...


For anyone interested, here's the link to the full study. Worth a read

http://www.nature.com/ijir/journal/v15/n3/full/3900981a.html


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

I will go into more details later why clomid works so well and the people that benefit the most.


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## infernal0988 (Jun 16, 2011)

IDK if this means anything but as my testis was abit small after cycle and PCT, i recently did a cycle of clomid for 3 weeks now my balls are ****ing huge :thumb:


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## SonOfZeus (Feb 15, 2009)

infernal0988 said:


> IDK if this means anything but as my testis was abit small after cycle and PCT, i recently did a cycle of clomid for 3 weeks now my balls are ****ing huge :thumb:


Which would suggest it works effectively off-cycle. Doesn't help with the on-cycle argument though! :tongue:


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## infernal0988 (Jun 16, 2011)

Hehe i never use anything apart from AAS on cycle :001_tt2: All i do is a hard dosed clomid cycle then im fine!


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## m118 (Feb 4, 2011)

Solid points empire

One thing I am curious about would be how a dbol only cycle would fair with clomid on cycle. Since it readily converts to E, etc... Something I've been thinking about.


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## m118 (Feb 4, 2011)

Empire Boy said:


> You would need tamoxifen as well, along with adex or aromasin to keep it under control, I would not touch clomid on cycle without and AI. But I just can't see how at 50mg eod clomid won't make its way to the pituitary and stimulate GnRH. While it might be bullied a little bit, I don't see how it could be completely prevented from binding...


I was under the impression an AI would lessen the efficacy of Dbol because the oestrogens it forms are anabolic too.


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## Mars (Aug 25, 2007)

Empire Boy said:


> Nobody ever said clomid will prevent you from being shut down. While androgens will compete at the pituitary, clomid is still going to get the pituitary to fire GnRH. And I really think it is crazy to not see the relevance of hypergonadal males...what are we when we are on high levels of AAS? Hypergonadal...Again, while the androgens will compete at the pituitary, they are not going to completely block the effects of clomid. If they do, show me the proof. Also, the depression argument is rubbish. Plenty of androgens while on cycle, and if you run an AI, you won't experience E sides. Its simple. Bottom line, if you are producing LH and FHS naturally before commencing PCT, which clomid will do, if it doesn't, show me the proof, then you will get back to producing your own testosterone faster...much faster than injecting synthetic LH derived from preggers p1ss.
> 
> *Also, this is not a 'flash in the pan' that was posted a few years back. I searched this entire forum and can find no discussion at all of clomid on cycle and its benefits. None.* Also, this is being used successfully and is discussed at length in North American forums.


Believe what you like and it has been posted many times over the years and never took off, i wonder why???? (and i didn't say on this forum). Now unless you stop the provocating/baiting bullsh1t you can go back to north american forums because you are really begining to p1ss me off.


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## m118 (Feb 4, 2011)

Empire Boy said:


> this is right, I realised that after submitting...I forgot this is why we run tamoxifen with Dbol. Do you think there is a difference in how a type I versus a type II AI would affect Dbol?


I understand that oestrogen should only be a problem on doses exceeding 20mg/day. I've read many cycles of 10-15mg/day for eg 6 weeks being effective without oestrogen related sides. This is the kind of situation I wonder whether clomid would help off set the oestrogen related suppression.

I know E levels would rise with clomid, but so does test (in the eugonadal people not on steroids) so if it was to work, i assume it wouldnt be an issue since generally the studies tended to show a favourable change in the T:E ratio

Regarding the AIs, this is not something I've looked into but am curious about


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## m118 (Feb 4, 2011)

Empire Boy said:


> Ahhh, I see what you're getting at! Very good intuition. A lower amount of Dbol but with a rise in endogenous test via clomid...and you wouldn't want an AI fullstop, you're right, as the E is what makes a good chunk of gains off Dbol...and it is a cool idea to think that maybe the clomid will offset the E supression from 10-15mg of dbol...interesting.


I might give it a go in the summer


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## m118 (Feb 4, 2011)

Empire Boy said:


> its a really cool idea. The increase in test amongst healthy males from clomid is impressive, and if you can pepper that with a little dbol without shut down via clomid, we are talking some really good stuff here...you think you can get bloods done after you do it to see?


Not sure, i understand saliva tests for test are cheap but fairly inaccurate.


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## m118 (Feb 4, 2011)

Empire Boy said:


> I know, bloods are a pain in the a55...I go private but its starting to add up, and I don't want to tell my GP as the bastard will put it on my file...but its not entirely hard to tell if you are shut down, to what degree though is the part you need bloods. But its a good idea, something tells me it would work...and if you ran just a light PCT, bringing in some tamoxifen and maybe aromasin, you might be back up from any minor suppression that did occur pretty fast...I think I smell a young *Dan Duchanine* in you M118! I never would have made that connection between low amounts of Dbol and clomid.


very kind of you empire but I still got lots to learn. It's only these past few months has my interest sparked in the whole AAS/PCT stuff.

And i agree, potentially the plan could work rather well!

I'd like to hear from Ausbuilt and Mars and Hacksii on this latest idea whether its positive or negative, it's an interesting avenue to explore


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## Muscle (Oct 10, 2010)

Empire Boy said:


> agreed. although I might not be around much longer :lol:


That would be a huge loss to the community if that happened.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Clomid will not keep testicular function on cycle.

I dont know why guys feel it will.

Problem is a simple one.

For hypogonadal men, they already have low or depressed testosterone levels.

Taking clomid with no inhibition of exogenous steroids and depressed endogenous testosterone levels it will spark the pituitary.

With steroid levels far above natty levels the hypothalamus will not fire LH even in the presence of clomid.

I have followed two TRT doctors that take steroids and have for years, never have I heard of anyone of them suggest clomid during cycle.

They do however suggest an AI with aromitizable steroids, and the use of HCG, one during and one post cycle.

The dude that wrote the steroid handbook suggesed it would not help same as Bill Phillips.

I have been in this game a long time, nobody suggests that I know of that clomid works, nobody, except two people.

And to say prove it, hell, I don't need to, it does not work.

How can one prove that clomid does not work during cycle?

Validation by HCG on the other hand is simple; recovery is far easier keeping the testicles stimulated this I have noticed myself.

I will say it again, clomid will not stop supression of the HPTA on cycle, it cant, the body is far to smart than that, it sees androgens are elivated and no need to trigger LH as it does not need to.


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## Mars (Aug 25, 2007)

Muscle said:


> That would be a huge loss to the community if that happened.


Indeed  , but what a great asset to the north american forums:lol:.

FYI: EB, i have no intention of banning you and i certainly wasnt threatening you, your opinion is just that, an opinion, no matter how ill conceived.


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## m118 (Feb 4, 2011)

hackskii said:


> Clomid will not keep testicular function on cycle.
> 
> *I dont know why guys feel it will.*
> 
> ...


I understand where you're coming from, and I'm not saying you don;t know what you're talking about.

Specifically ... can you see where I'm coming from on the low dose dbol cycle idea? In that a proportion of the suppresion normally must come from the aromatised components of it and so the clomid would block this. and given its half life, taking 10-15mg upon waking, can you see why the idea is remotely plausible?


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

m118 said:


> I understand where you're coming from, and I'm not saying you don;t know what you're talking about.
> 
> Specifically ... can you see where I'm coming from on the low dose dbol cycle idea? In that a proportion of the suppresion normally must come from the aromatised components of it and so the clomid would block this. and given its half life, taking 10-15mg upon waking, can you see why the idea is remotely plausible?


i think you're on the right track..

dont forget that Dr John Ziegler stated that 10mg/day D-bol was the full replacement dose for man...

I have to disagree with Hackski and Mars on there view regarding the androgen level preventing clomid being effective, principally because i can't find any papers remotely supporting there view.

In this thread, hackskii states "believe x, because it just is.." and in another thread on nandrolone and MPB, Mars has used the same arguement.

Well I can't argue against an assertion, but they are just making assertions in these cases. Fair enough, but it does not lead to anyone getting a better understanding (i.e if I or M118 or empire) make a a hypothesis.. there's prob no definitive answer, as there is little direct academic study of some of these aspects..

however, in arguing against a hypothesis.. SOME evidence is damn useful in promoting further thought and debate...

which is what I'm all about....


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

Empire Boy said:


> This is the basics of the scientific method...which we should all follow. And have a read of Bruno Latour's 'Laboratory Life' as it shows how much of science is an art and a bunch of guess work; all you can really do is what Aus just said, i.e. arguing against a hypothesis based on evidence you have to put holes in a hypothesis...what do I know, and how will it destroy my hypothesis...in this case, all the evidence so far is not destroying the clomid on cycle theory, its supporting it, and in this case, its time for the only experimentation we can do, which is on ourselves, like any good scientist (think Jonas Salk), and then analyse the results.


yep.. I like to think Dan Dunchaine, the human guinea pig as he called himself too..


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## mark22 (Jul 13, 2011)

Empire Boy said:


> This is the basics of the scientific method...which we should all follow. And have a read of Bruno Latour's 'Laboratory Life' as it shows how much of science is an art and a bunch of guess work; all you can really do is what Aus just said, i.e. arguing against a hypothesis based on evidence you have to put holes in a hypothesis...what do I know, and how will it destroy my hypothesis...in this case, all the evidence so far is not destroying the clomid on cycle theory, its supporting it, and in this case, its time for the only experimentation we can do, which is on ourselves, like any good scientist (think Jonas Salk), and then analyse the results.


I hope no one minds if I interject. This is a very interesting argument and Empire Boy your argument is the pure scientific way, I have a degree in physics so believe me when I know where you are coming from. First principle is a huge thing. But when it comes to the medical community the odd study here or there showing a result one way or another is pretty meaningless to your average doctor on the ground. Super reviews are done of thousands of studies before something is recommended. So either side of this argument could be right but yours is coming from the I want proof side and the other is We need real proof side. Arguing is kinda silly till you have lots of proof.

Please don't take that the wrong way, the medical community is a fickle bunch (my brother is a doctor and we argue!).


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## Mars (Aug 25, 2007)

ausbuilt said:


> i think you're on the right track..
> 
> dont forget that Dr John Ziegler stated that 10mg/day D-bol was the full replacement dose for man...
> 
> ...


It's not really my argument, when you said "nandrolone CANNOT cause MPB" my response was directly from the patient information leaflet and the known side effects, one of which states that, and i quote "may cause male pattern baldness".

As for the on going clomid debate and you being unable to find any papers, well there are very few. The point i'm making is that i know exactly how clomid, AAS and the endocrine system work, from this i can hypothesise/theorise (which all science is based on) that clomid will not do what you guys think it will while you are taking exogenous steroids. As Hacks as pointed out, you will not fire up LH and subsequently increase testosterone/keep the testes functioning with the conccurrent use of clomid and AAS, i just fail to see how you can come to this conclusion if you and EB have an understanding of the above mentioned.

It is fact that exogenous testosterone will suppress LH release even in the abcence of estrogen and that is based on real scientific evidence, not just an assertation by me.


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## Mars (Aug 25, 2007)

Empire Boy said:


> First, you said MPB is a side effect of nandrolone...now you assert that this is stated on the information packaging on pharma grade. But how in the world can an AAS cause, not acclerate, a genetically inherited condition? Am I missing something about MPB? I was always taught it was genetic, not environmental...its a weird statement for a company to make...sounds like they have rubbish consultants, because NOTHING causes MPB, its a genetic condition full stop. Certain drugs can only ACCELERATE it.
> 
> Second, what about the testosterone being raised in normal males, significantly? They had plenty of androgens, not as much when on supraphysiological levels of AAS, but still had plenty to compete at the pituitary. I think plenty of us also have a good understanding of the endocrine system and have been educated in the sciences as well, M118 and Ausbuilt also have a very good understanding of AAS and how clomid works. I feel after reading several recent studies...studies I think you haven't bothered to read yet...I have a pretty good understanding of clomid now, as well as AAS. So I don't think your posturing as more knowledgeable than all of us is a valid argument against clomid on cycle. I need more than that to disprove a hypothesis.
> 
> ...


Well good for you, knock yourself out.

Neither have you that's of any relevance to your argument.

I'll take a tip from Hackskii's sig and leave you to it.


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## DeadlyCoobra (Oct 16, 2011)

This thread... to much.....










I have much to learn, very interesting stuff though.

Empire boy will you be posting the bloods up in this thread?


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## m118 (Feb 4, 2011)

Empire Boy said:


> Second, what about the testosterone being raised in normal males, significantly?* They had plenty of androgens, not as much when on supraphysiological levels of AAS, but still had plenty to compete at the pituitary.* I think plenty of us also have a good understanding of the endocrine system and have been educated in the sciences as well, M118 and Ausbuilt also have a very good understanding of AAS and how clomid works. I feel after reading several recent studies...studies I think you haven't bothered to read yet...I have a pretty good understanding of clomid now, as well as AAS. So I don't think your posturing as more knowledgeable than all of us is a valid argument against clomid on cycle. I need more than that to disprove a hypothesis.


This is an excellent point. Even in the eugonadal males, young ones too, clomid M/W/F or eod was used to great effect to lead to significantly higher levels of test than baseline. I know these aren't supraphysiological but it shows that even if test is the upper most range of normal, clomid is still working to output a strong enough LH level to maintain that level.

So logically, using the dbol at 10mg/day (apparent TRT dose) it would be plausible for the use of clomid to lessen the suppression (especially since the oestrogen metabolites will be blocked too) that would normally be associated.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

m118 said:


> I understand where you're coming from, and I'm not saying you don;t know what you're talking about.
> 
> Specifically ... can you see where I'm coming from on the low dose dbol cycle idea? In that a proportion of the suppresion normally must come from the aromatised components of it and so the clomid would block this. and given its half life, taking 10-15mg upon waking, can you see why the idea is remotely plausible?


Estrogen is approx 200 times more supressive than testosterone.

So, yes, given the spike of testosterone in the morning taking your dbol which has a fairly short half life would not hinder the HPTA too much.

Manipulating estrogen probably would be a benefit here.

Low dose dbol cycles are not that suppressive anyway, and study's show this.

So, clomid dbol pulsing would be an easy recovery.

Pulsing cycles are not new, and very mild if any suppression.

The idea is simple, bump natty levels in the morning so the androgens are in and out by the time the body sees it as a need to do something.

Pulse around gym times where androgens are again high, and use like 3 times a week where the other days wont be affected as well.

Or, short high doses where you are in and out before the body shuts down.

In the end the average is more, so will the benefits.

Nice thing about small cycles are the inhibition is low, but then again the gains are low, but so will the sides be low.

I do agree with pulsing, I think it is Patrick Henry that has a good read on that one, or was it Dr. drew, I cant remember, but solid stuff.



Empire Boy said:


> But it significantly elevates testosterone in normal males, with normal levels of androgens. If this is the case, which a recent very large and significant study showed, then would not the body be smart enough to know it doesn't need to produce GnRH ->LH and FSH? Why did it significantly elevate test in normal males?
> 
> I just don't see how anybody on this forum can be certain that clomid won't stimulate your natural LH and FSH while on cycle, when nobody has actually tried it who is criticising it. Its bordering on dogma, and not science, and science is mostly guess work and experimentation as any good scientists knows. I'm just not convinced androgen competition at the anterior pituitary is enough to prevent the negative feedback loop from being inhibited by clomid. Again, I don't see how anybody can be convinced this won't happen when nobody has actually tried it, save that of Ausbuilt. last I checked Aus was no dougnut..he seems pretty well read...
> 
> ...


Clomid, like nolvadex, and AI's do tend to bump natty levels.

They work even better where men have high levels of aromatase activity.

Now, it does not take a rocket scientist to figure out that manipulating estrogen has a positive affect on testosterone, hence the score of products called test boosters which most of them have either an AI or a SERM in them.

So, manipulating estrogen can give rise to higher levels of androgens.

Thats cool.

But, gains would not necessarily be there as estrogen is needed for many things like libido, lipids, bone density, and even muscle gains, it is the excessive estrogen that is unwanted.

Going back some using the logic above, some of the most suppressive gears around have little if any conversion to estrogen, yet are totally suppressive.

In light of probably even lower levels of estrogen (remember on cycle natty levels testosterone declines, and this will give way to even lower than normal estrogen levels due to lower T levels), one would think that stuff like anadrol, deca, tren, winstrol all would be easy to recover.

They are not, in fact are the hardest to recover from.

What, in light of low estrogen levels these non aromitizable steroids are suppressive?

Why?

Clomid does not compete with androgens, it makes GnRH more sensitive at the pituitary, and actually acts as an estrogen at the hypothalamus, whereas nolva does not.

Problem with recovery is testicular function, once the nuts atrophy, they could take many months to recover.

Below is a chart that shows LH function comes pretty quick post cycle with no intervention.

And could probably be within weeks of recovery, were as the testicles take far longer, and depending on dose, up to a year.

Also below is another clomid study, notice that testosterone levels were still within range and not above base levels.

Why would that be?

Would it be perhaps at some point after estrogen has been manipulated, or that GnRH receptors are sensitive but not to the point where something allows it to not go above base values?

I mean, why not just use clomid and get the effects as steroids?

Why do we not see the levels natty produced as on cycle using clomid?

Because something stops this from happening, and my bet would be androgens.

Another thing.

Nolva acts similar to clomid, many guys use nolva during cycles and have for years, and were used long before the use of AI's became a bodybuilding staple.

How come nobody ever said hey, I noticed that while on cycle using nolva, recovery was easier?

I mean Mick Heart always suggested nolva on cycle for ever.

Where are the bodys that support the use of clomid or nolva on cycle?

Where are they at?

Naltrexone is one drug that used with steroids still will produce both FSH and LH.

Take a look around, the data is there, blood results are there, it works just the same way you feel clomid works, but there is proof.

But, now here we go, it does not work with tren or deca, works with testosterone, but not all steroids.

I know of a Dutch endo doctor that uses nolva @ 20mg ED and low dose testosterone at 75mg a week.

He lets his guys take months to recover.

His idea is simple, you go just below natty levels (TRT is 100mg a week of testosterone cypionate in the states), of 75mg or 25% below natty levels, and with the use of nolva, they return their natty levels after several months yet do not crash because they have some testosterone in their system.

Using the logic of above, why does the endo doc go 25% below natty levels if SERMS work even in light of levels above base?

Simple answer really, and I am sure the endo doc figured this one out.

Because any higher and the HPTA would not recover.

There was another study on tore as well using this method.

LH is the chemical switch that turns on testosterone, when androgens are far above natty levels, LH wont turn on regardless of what you use.

HCG on the other hand will directly stimulate the testicles, and as above could take months with no intervention.

Taking some studies showing elevated LH levels, FSH levels, and testosterone levels (not super physiological levels) using clomid and extrapolating that it would do the same on cycle, really is a stretch.

Again, I have never heard of one person saying it was the way foreward and clomid has been around for a very long time.

Nobody

But, take a before and after test, then use clomid and we will see.

The testing time would have to be the same, lets just look at FSH and LH, no need for testosterone as it will be off the chart from the exogenous administration.


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## Ginger Ben (Oct 5, 2010)

This thread is really interesting, my brain hurts a lot now but it's really, really good!


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## Fatstuff (Mar 2, 2010)

Ginger Ben said:


> This thread is really interesting, my brain hurts a lot now but it's really, really good!


Apart from all the bitching :lol: - maybe a few need to up their dose of ai instead if talking about them

Boooyaaaa!!!


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Empire Boy said:


> I imagine that when I am completely shut down week 6


Actually not, and certainly to the level most get at the end of a cycle.

Go 12 weeks and that will give a better picture.

Most cycles past 12 weeks are suppressive, 6 weeks are not that really.

That would skew results or infer something that is not.



Empire Boy said:


> But I am not sure why you have brought up tamoxifen as nobody ever thought nolva on cycle would keep testicular function for obvious reasons: its just an estradiol antagonist, whereas clomid is also an agonist, this is very important I would think.


Got news for you boss, both tamox and Clomid are estradiol antagonists and agonists, just at different tissues.

Nolva actually has shown in studies to do very similar in spiking T levels like Clomid, some feel both act the very same, some feel that because nolva at just 20mg works as good as 150mg of Clomid that it actually is preferred.

Nolva actually acts as an estrogen on the prostate, and to that very simple part of the equation is why I do not like the idea of it during cycle but then again different horses.



Empire Boy said:


> So how do androgens completely block this process at supraphysiological levels?


Because they are supraphysiological levels, homeostasis dictates that.

If Clomid worked that well and if what you suspect is true, then what is to stop Clomid from not making supraphysiological levels?

Why is there a ceiling on the levels you can get?

Why would not the ceiling be the same for exo testosterone or any steroid levels?

If Clomid put you well out of reference range then I could buy into some of that, but it does not, so why would it in the presence of reference ranges more than double the top of base values on cycle be any different?



Empire Boy said:


> Why at normal levels does clomid work SO well, but suddenly when its supraphysiological levels of androgens it completely stops working altogether?


It works so well because one is not already in supraphysiological levels.



Empire Boy said:


> Its just been assumed that clomid won't work on cycle


No, it is being assumed that it works on cycle.

No assumption if it happens to be fact (not working), which we already know this to be true.

You are saying it will keep LH levels up during cycle, I say it wont, and if it did, you would have a study handy.

You made the assertion that it works on cycle, you are the one that is assuming, not me, but you will see this once you get your blood work back.



Empire Boy said:


> Coming back to androgen competition, above you say clomid does not compete with androgens, yet further below you say that clomid, because of the androgens, will not be able to stimulate the production of LH.


Correct.

With the line of thinking you are using, you make out that it is estrogen alone that causes the hypothalamus/pituitary axis to shut down.

That is not entirely true.

If androgens and not just testosterone, but even DHT are above base levels LH wont fire, even in the light of being low in estrogen.

This is called homeostasis.

Just like if you ate an extra 500 calories a day you would gain 1 pound a week.

But, you would not gain 520 pounds over 10 years.

Why?

Because of the bodies adaptive response.

Some muscle would be gained and then you would have a higher requirement for fuel.

The body does not want to stay in an anabolic environment, that suggests that the body have less stores for survival, and would have to work harder.

Same as gains.

If I take 500mg of testosterone a week, after about 10 weeks or so gains stall.

But, why is this?

Because the body is doing something else to try and maintain homeostasis and is interfering with what it is you want to do.

The body is super smart at adapting.



Empire Boy said:


> But if you control E on cycle, then, maybe, wouldn't clomid have a shot at sensitising GnRH receptors?


Sure if it was estrogen alone that is controlling things, as suggested before androgens inhibit HPTA if over or above upper range.

Remember 100mg of testosterone a week is used for TRT, why do you feel that 5 to 10 times the androgens above normal even with keeping estrogen in check would not have a negative affect on the HPTA?

This reminds me of the blind men and the elephant; you touch on one aspect of suppression, and recovery and come up with something, not taking anything else into account.

BigCat has an article on Clomid that says there is a limit to the sensitivity, that after a period of time it actually makes the GnRH receptors less sensitive and that nolva actually will make them more sensitive over time.

This is why I believe Dr. Scally suggests both (Clomid, and nolva).



Empire Boy said:


> Also some old studies worth looking at again:


Again, using studies that are not on men that use steroids to come to a conclusion.

You know, porno stimulates LH release, why not just look at porno every day on cycle and extrapolate that watching porno will keep the HPTA in tact.

Using your very same logic, why not, and as my proof, I get an erection with porno so it has to be doing something right?



Empire Boy said:


> Another positive is that clomid on cycle will keep your semen thicker and it also helps with lipids.


Oops, correction mate, it makes it thinner and more of it.



Empire Boy said:


> Also, have you read Bill Roberts short pieces?


I will quote him:

*Can Clomid, taken throughout a cycle, completely eliminate inhibition?*

I do not believe so. There is also androgenic inhibition mediated by the androgen receptor, which has nothing to do with the estrogen receptor. Androgenic inhibition is unavoidable and cannot be helped by estrogen receptor antagonists. However, use of Clomid throughout a cycle can definitely reduce the degree of the inhibition and allow a speedier recovery at the end of the cycle.

This is what I have been saying the whole time, but you are not listening.

Clomid would work no different than an AI for the very same reason, but the advantages of an AI are better and more tolerated than Clomid.

Why link me to a post that validates my point.

I have seen both you and aus suggest Clomid over HCG, or to it even being equal.

This is wrong, and many guys on the board are talking this crap, you are both wrong and spreading bad information.

I do not want to sound like a bad person over here, but suggesting Clomid works as good or better than HCG is terrible advice and please do not give guys this information is it is just bad info.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Empire Boy said:


> But I take your points on adaptation and homeostasis...the porno bit made me laugh out loud!


I know I did do that for fun but you can see how the mind works if X works then it should work under other conditions.

I understand it is all ideas, and that is what we work with from that stand point.



Empire Boy said:


> I just over the last few weeks of reading becoming convinced a possibly better alternative to hcg as it could increase your LH and FSH on cycle, therefore as Roberts says, lead to quicker recovery,


Now this is where the rubber hits the road.

Clomid is not an alternative to HCG.

On cycle HCG will keep and maintain testicular function, not so with the use of Clomid.

Who said that the reason Roberts says that it was because of LH and FSH increase?

Like an AI, I feel that keeping estrogen in check is the reason for the less suppression, not that it is from LH and FSH, so I can see how you would think it is but once you get your blood work back, we will see.

But, Clomid would cause less inhibition the very same way as an AI.

You could have asked Bill the same question about the use of an AI during cycles and he would have said the same thing.



Empire Boy said:


> And remember, we have ZERO studies for hCG and males on large amounts of AAS too...


Many guys crash post cycle, using HCG this does not happen, I don't need a study to show me this.

Hell, my bro crashed so hard he had test levels of a girl and was low for one year.

He crashed and then took some HCG and the very next day he felt better.

This is common, so even in the light of exogenous steroids, leydig cells stay alive while on HCG, and you actually produce endogenous testosterone, Clomid wont do that.



Empire Boy said:


> but what about the studies on hCG?????


Look them up; it elevates testosterone levels above base levels as well.

Don't take my word for it.

HCG acts directly on the testicles, even ones that are atrophied.

You do know they use HCG in boys whose testicles do not drop right?

They do not use Clomid, they use HCG.

Again, don't take my word for it, tons of information out there, and has been used for more than 20 years.

Run the LH and FSH tests at the end of your cycle.

You do know that things like cortisol, prolactin, progestin's, all can be inhibitory right?

The big picture is not a simple equation, it is very complex.


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## infernal0988 (Jun 16, 2011)

Thats why im gonna run HCG during my entire cycles, reason? i will keep more gains due to faster recovery, Clomid will be run when blast and cruise ends 2-3 weeks after last blast.


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## infernal0988 (Jun 16, 2011)

stick to what works for you EmpireBoy no one can prove you wrong or right , if it works will be interesting to see. Will follow you closely and see. Rep for sticking by your opinion :thumb:


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Empire Boy said:


> I completely agree. So complex in fact, I don't think clomid should be ruled out because it doesn't work on paper, or in 'theory'...
> 
> and none of the studies on hCG are on men with supraphysiological levels of test. Its your experience that it works, and working with your clients...
> 
> ...


First of all, I have no clients.

Clients would suggest someone is paying me for information.

I would never charge one penny.

Why?

Because all the information I have gathered was free to me and it is a hobby that I like to do.

If someone paid me then it would not be a hobby, it would be work and the fun would be gone.

I hate repeating myself but here goes.

HCG does in fact work regardless of what it is you are taking, as long as the testicles are not damaged or you are not primary hypogonadism.

I do not run clomid, I do run an AI during the cycle, so yes, that does make recovery easier, add in HCG on cycle and you got all the tools for recovery.

Nothing makes more sense.

Now lets say why here.

HCG will keep testicular function.

The AI will also aid to help prevent deeper supression.

Now that we have the testicles covered during the cycle, post cycle after the androgens are about base levels we start the clomid.

Clomid works well to bring the pituitary back on line, now that the testicles are functional, just a short couple of weeks or so the clomid brings the pituitary back on line.

Now, I pose this question to you.

If HCG during the cycle keeps testicular function, and while we wait for the clearance time to pass using the AI and HCG making sure testicular function is there, just a couple of weeks and no more than a few weeks is the only time you have a short laps in normal testosterone levels.

Total down time would be less than 3 weeks and no crash.

Does this seem acceptable to gamble on a whim (which you are not the only one that thought clomid worked on cycle, many have, now only a couple say), when post cycle it could take months for you to recover?

Its like I can say I guarantee I can make you 5% return on your investment and you say no I can do better.

Then you only get back 1% of your return.

Was it worth it to learn from your mistake?

After all you had good success in the first place.

Saying I have no experience in clomid is wrong.

I always use clomid, post cycle.

I have done this many ways, I would not suggest anything that I have not tried.

I started on this board 8 years ago for the very reason of a failed recovery.

I read all I could from all the top dudes, and in the end, I have failed many times, but not after I got it together.

I am probably the hardest guy to recover on the board, with my age probably the hardest, now, it is very simple.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

OK boss.

Nobody is argueing anyway.

I need not defend anything, in fact I have had some beer.

Well, other stuff too but hell, gotta say.

I am not attacking anything.

For one sec.

Buzzed none the less.

Hope this does not discredit me.

I have seen much.

I know nothing.

I have nothing.

Do you think out of the millions of people that have used AI's, SERMS, during a cycle ever suggested they work to supress?

To the level you suggest?

Really?

OK, I would make this a wager but that in itself might cause doubt and work against what it is we all want to do.

I am all for inovation.

All for collective knowledge, brainstorming if you will

I love this board, yah, had some stuff.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

I love this board, more than any, I would welcome if I am wrong, I have tons of clomid actually.

Please, if anyone took anything I said personal, please disregard, Im old and stuck in my ways, and had beer, and a couple of puffs... :lol:


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## C.Hill (Nov 21, 2010)

Wow. There are some long words in this thread lol

Excellent reading guys!


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## Mr ziggle (Aug 9, 2011)

If clomid raises test levels in normal males, would it not make more sense to start clomid on day of your last jab instead of waiting 3 weeks (test e). so when your test levels drop to below this level (that clomid stops working) the clomid is already there doing it's thing. I presume the level would vary in individuals so some may be missing out on a recovery time by waiting.

This would allow hcg during the cycle, ai and clomid during clearance and nolva plus clomid after.


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## infernal0988 (Jun 16, 2011)

Battle if the giants :lol:


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Well, I would do things different myself after a bit of thinking.

I would use clomid at the start of a cycle where the steroids would be far less suppressive.

I would probably run this for the first 4 weeks, then swap over to HCG and run an AI throughout.

Idea would be to keep the nuts and pituitary firing the first few weeks, then keep and maintain testicular function during, then once the gear has or is around natty levels start back on the SERMS, drop the AI and HCG.

This would tighten the window for suppression in my mind.

Empire, you should wait till the end of the cycle (12 weeks or 13 weeks), then give blood.

The longer on, the more LH and FSH will be suppressed.

I have seen LH as low as .1 before.


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## SonOfZeus (Feb 15, 2009)

PAH, I'm well a truley lost. I stopped running Clomid as I felt depressed as fuark, not sure if that was situational or coincedence or as a result of the Clomid.. But I think I may resume it around week 4 when test kicks in, to see what effect it has.


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## Mr ziggle (Aug 9, 2011)

I will try the above starting on Monday. Cheers hacks and empire boy.

Bit of a heated debate at some points but we are all reading and learning which is why this board is so addictive.

Cheers all


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## DeadlyCoobra (Oct 16, 2011)

Empire boy if this works you should be awarded with a UK-M Nobel prize after going all Barry Marshall on us! :thumb:


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Empire Boy said:


> Its Aus's fault/idea, taken form NA forums, he got me on to it and is the one who is running it and experienced with it...he just knows when to quit arguing and carry on...


Which forum is that?

Are you suggesting aus has blood work to confirm his suspicion?

You know your statement about quit arguing and carry on suggests it works.

Until anyone has blood, it is only speculation based on an opinion.

Estrogenic suppression will not outweigh androgenic expression.


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## C.Hill (Nov 21, 2010)

We need a guinea pig to run a cycle with clomid eod and to get regular bloods taken.

Any takers?


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## m575 (Apr 4, 2010)

If it works great, if it doesn't then who cares but now youve got people saying their using it or recommending it to others as well which is a bit far in my opinion . Ooooo a big guy I know does it so it must be good, kinda attitude


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## Muscle (Oct 10, 2010)

Yeah I don't think others should try it but it's definitely worth getting to the bottom of it because if this protocol makes you recover quicker than HCG it's only a good thing for the AAS community and that Empire Boy pointed it out


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## Mr ziggle (Aug 9, 2011)

Empire Boy said:


> I would stick with hCG and the tried and true..but if you're willing to experiement! Just be sure to monitor yourself closely and be safe. If this is not your first cycle and you've done a fair bit of research no worries I would think, but if unsure, I would stick to hCG as in Mars sticky for the time being


Meant the combo of clomid first and hcg later. Don't normally start hcg till week 3/4 so not that much different.


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## m118 (Feb 4, 2011)

Empire Boy said:


> I'm doing it now, and will have bloods done at Medicheck on week 12...I did my first shot of tri test and deca with oxys on 3 January, and at the same time ingested 50mg of clomid. hCG will not be touched, but I will be managing my E in various ways, but I am for the most part keeping it highish but avoid gyno...so this would make it even tougher for the theory to work...


excited to see the results my man!


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Well, we will know soon enough..

But, some threads like clomid vs HCG pop up, or I saw a few guys saying they are going to use clomid instead of HCG.

That is what is going on, backwards not fwd.

I just don't want a bunch of guys saying it works when it could make matters worse for recovery when one excludes the most potent weapon in the wear against recovery HCG.

Or, I aint taking any of that preggers urine in my body, when I can take clomid.

It only takes one person to start a bad rumor that then travels through the net as fact.

That is my biggest issue.


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## m575 (Apr 4, 2010)

Empire Boy said:


> nobody has ever said its better or that it 100% works, at least I haven't, I haven't read anybody else claiming this either. M118 started this thread, and you should re-read the title, that is the spirit of it, not 'converting' people to using clomid on cycle, that is not the point at all.


I didn't say they had did you even read my post? Lol I was just pointing out since this thread I've noticed other people advocating it in their own cycle or recommending it for others as if it's a proven scientific fact.


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## m575 (Apr 4, 2010)

hackskii said:


> Well, we will know soon enough..
> 
> But, some threads like clomid vs HCG pop up, or I saw a few guys saying they are going to use clomid instead of HCG.
> 
> ...


Basically what I was getting at


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## Ukmeathead (Dec 4, 2010)

I will try clomid 50mg ed and nolva 20mg come next friday which is my last jab and i will see what happens too.


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## SonOfZeus (Feb 15, 2009)

Still unsure what to do! Got a ton of Clomid sat around, coming upto 4 weeks into my cycle but I haven't been taking anything for my nuts.. Can't afford HCG atm to be honest, so might just have to get back on the Clomid and pray that it somehow does work and Aus / Empire are right! Just hope it doesn't make me feel depressed again, or I can't hack it! Hmm....


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