# Steroids and Ketogenic Diets



## Ironclad

Is ketosis well suited to run alongside a steroids cycle, or should there be plenty of carbohydrates in a diet?

:confused1:


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## strongboes

If you are dieting then no worries, if bulking then most people will find carbs much better, although it would be possible on keto, albeit very slowly.


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## Androgen

In my personal opinion and experience, steroids are arguably a very integral ingredient when using ketosis to diet but hold on to lean muscle tissue.

Due to the nature of ketosis energy is derived from fats and proteins. Protein is broken down and converted to glucose through a mechanism called Gluconeogenesis. Diets rich in carbohydrates minimise this process as carbohydrates spare protein from being used as energy.

In a natural bodybuilder ketosis can often be too catabolic and muscle is often broken down for the bodies energy requirements. Steroids reverse catabolic effect (the wasting of muscle tissue) by enabling the muscle to store more protein and making it harder for the amino acids to be scavenged for fuel requirements.

I found the following cycle particularly helpful and effective in maximising muscularity whilst minimising the catabolic effects of ketosis.

Sustanon 250: 1 ampule every 7 days

Winstrol 50mg inject able: 1 ampule EOD

Proviron 25mg: 2 tablets daily

Clenbuterol 20mcg: 60mcg daily in divided doses.

I apologise for the crude explanation above but I hope the information benefits you to some degree.


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## Big Dawg

Androgen said:


> In my personal opinion and experience, steroids are arguably a very integral ingredient when using ketosis to diet but hold on to lean muscle tissue.
> 
> Due to the nature of ketosis energy is derived from fats and proteins. Protein is broken down and converted to glucose through a mechanism called Gluconeogenesis. Diets rich in carbohydrates minimise this process as carbohydrates spare protein from being used as energy.
> 
> In a natural bodybuilder ketosis can often be too catabolic and muscle is often broken down for the bodies energy requirements. Steroids reverse catabolic effect (the wasting of muscle tissue) by enabling the muscle to store more protein and making it harder for the amino acids to be scavenged for fuel requirements.
> 
> I found the following cycle particularly helpful and effective in maximising muscularity whilst minimising the catabolic effects of ketosis.
> 
> Sustanon 250: 1 ampule every 7 days
> 
> Winstrol 50mg inject able: 1 ampule EOD
> 
> Proviron 25mg: 2 tablets daily
> 
> Clenbuterol 20mcg: 60mcg daily in divided doses.
> 
> I apologise for the crude explanation above but I hope the information benefits you to some degree.


Glucogenesis is not inevitable in a ketogenic diet at all. It's fairly inevitable in Dave Palumbo's diet as he recommends such a small amount of carbs to refeed with and his keto plan is far too high in protein and too low in fat. However, if following a CKD, providing that you use enough carbs to refeed and your diet is high enough in fat and not too high in protein, glucogenesisi shouldn't occur at any significant level.

Steroids help maintain muscle with any diet, but keto diets are no more catabolic that any other diet, and probably significantly less catabolic than a low carb diet. There would be no reason to add steroids for the first time in a cutting cycle as your muscle would have been built naturally so would be easy to retain.


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## B-GJOE

You took the words right out of my mouth Alas. I really don't understand why people think that keto is muscle catabolic in nature. FFS, Maurio Di Pisquale one of the pioneers of CKD devised as a way of getting WBF competitors to top shape naturally as an alternative to using gear. The CKD is designed for natural dieting, but obviously works better on the gear, due to its muscle sparing nature. Why would the body want to be running 2 energy systems simultaneously, once switched to fats, and using ketones, it has no need for gluconeogenesis, as ketones replace the essential glucose for the brain etc. I think that people make the keto muscle catabolic by eating too much protein and too little fat. I agree whole heartedly with Alas, eat enough fat, limit protein, and carb up for a day instead of 1 meal, and the diet shouldn't be muscle catabolic at all. I hope that lot made sense as I am typing away, totally oblivious to what i am waffling on about. This depleted state i am currently in is going to my head now. Only had 1 bowl of porrige in 10 days for carbs.


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## Ironclad

So it is ok then to 'lean bulk' in CKD I take it?

Average fats, High Proteins and Low carbs M-F.

Thanks for the replys btw, great stuff!


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## Big Dawg

B|GJOE said:


> You took the words right out of my mouth Alas. I really don't understand why people think that keto is muscle catabolic in nature. FFS, Maurio Di Pisquale one of the pioneers of CKD devised as a way of getting WBF competitors to top shape naturally as an alternative to using gear. The CKD is designed for natural dieting, but obviously works better on the gear, due to its muscle sparing nature. Why would the body want to be running 2 energy systems simultaneously, once switched to fats, and using ketones, it has no need for gluconeogenesis, as ketones replace the essential glucose for the brain etc. I think that people make the keto muscle catabolic by eating too much protein and too little fat. I agree whole heartedly with Alas, eat enough fat, limit protein, and carb up for a day instead of 1 meal, and the diet shouldn't be muscle catabolic at all. I hope that lot made sense as I am typing away, totally oblivious to what i am waffling on about. This depleted state i am currently in is going to my head now. Only had 1 bowl of porrige in 10 days for carbs.


Only a few more days bro, hang on in there  .

I preferred it when you used to use paragraphs though :tongue: .


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## B-GJOE

AlasTTTair said:


> Only a few more days bro, hang on in there  .
> 
> I preferred it when you used to use paragraphs though :tongue: .


I preferred it when I had the capacity to think in structured sentences and paragraphs, but now I'm just spewing up words on the screen. It's all a representation of brain state.


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## B-GJOE

Witch-King said:


> So it is ok then to 'lean bulk' in CKD I take it?
> 
> Average fats, High Proteins and Low carbs M-F.
> 
> Thanks for the replys btw, great stuff!


Why average fats? what is average fats? why is everyone so frigging scared of fat, bloody brainwashing that's what it is. Just watch your total calories, and never fear the fat of the land. Fear the refined carbohydrate my brother!


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## Ironclad

...sorry, i had the ratios the wrong ways round...

F/P/C high, med, low

As in, 65% - 30% - 5%

Then again, I still have plenty of reading to do!


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## B-GJOE

Witch-King said:


> ...sorry, i had the ratios the wrong ways round...
> 
> F/P/C high, med, low
> 
> As in, 65% - 30% - 5%
> 
> Then again, I still have plenty of reading to do!


Now were talkin! Perfect Keto ratio!! That's the keto phase sorted, not what about the weekly carb up? I say 24 hours, enjoy yourself!


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## Big Dawg

B|GJOE said:


> Why average fats? what is average fats? why is everyone so frigging scared of fat, bloody brainwashing that's what it is. Just watch your total calories, and never fear the fat of the land. Fear the refined carbohydrate my brother!


No no no no...embrace the refined carbohydrate...but only on weekends :thumbup1: .


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## B-GJOE

AlasTTTair said:


> No no no no...embrace the refined carbohydrate...but only on weekends :thumbup1: .


OK OK Alas, you got me there. But! ONLY on WEEKENDS


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## Ironclad

B|GJOE said:


> Now were talkin! Perfect Keto ratio!! That's the keto phase sorted, not what about the weekly carb up? I say 24 hours, enjoy yourself!


That's 24hrs of real ale then! haha :beer:


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## B-GJOE

Witch-King said:


> That's 24hrs of real ale then! haha :beer:


Starting around about the same time it takes me to drive from Sleaford to Spalding, wash off the fake tan, and get into town this saturday night after the Mr Lincolnshire show :beer:


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## Ironclad

Superb! All all the best for the big show :thumbup1:


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## Ironclad

Just one more quicky, sorry.

I've just got some ketostix, will i be looking for a colour change (any) or is the darker the better?

Bayer make.

Many thanks


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## M_at

The ketostix will include a colour chart which indicates what you're looking for.

To BigJoe - good luck with the Show.

To everyone else - good luck with the keto


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## B-GJOE

Ketostix are pretty useless, throughout my diet, some weeks i got deep purple, and others not even a trace, but all the time the bf was coming down. i'd prefer to use bf calipers as my indicator of a diet working or not. If you are using all the ketones the body makes why would you be p!ssing them out? Also dehydration effects the result, which is something that happens frequently on a keto diet.


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## MKattenberg

Androgen said:


> In my personal opinion and experience, steroids are arguably a very integral ingredient when using ketosis to diet but hold on to lean muscle tissue.
> 
> Due to the nature of ketosis energy is derived from fats and proteins. Protein is broken down and converted to glucose through a mechanism called Gluconeogenesis. Diets rich in carbohydrates minimise this process as carbohydrates spare protein from being used as energy.
> 
> In a natural bodybuilder ketosis can often be too catabolic and muscle is often broken down for the bodies energy requirements. Steroids reverse catabolic effect (the wasting of muscle tissue) by enabling the muscle to store more protein and making it harder for the amino acids to be scavenged for fuel requirements.
> 
> I found the following cycle particularly helpful and effective in maximising muscularity whilst minimising the catabolic effects of ketosis.
> 
> Sustanon 250: 1 ampule every 7 days
> 
> Winstrol 50mg inject able: 1 ampule EOD
> 
> Proviron 25mg: 2 tablets daily
> 
> Clenbuterol 20mcg: 60mcg daily in divided doses.
> 
> I apologise for the crude explanation above but I hope the information benefits you to some degree.


Sorry to bring up an old post i just read something totally wrong and misunderstood....

Quote"Due to the nature of ketosis energy is derived from fats and proteins. Protein is broken down and converted to glucose through a mechanism called Gluconeogenesis. Diets rich in carbohydrates minimise this process as carbohydrates spare protein from being used as energy."end Quote

You're right on one thing,,, good you did read some articles online but did not know the connection.... If on a regular diet and not enough food is consumed, yes, protein could get consumed and converted into glucose by "gluconeogenisis".... True about that...

untill: *Enertgy is not derived from Proteins whilst keto adapted (or your body is using ketones for fuel).. Your bloodstream is filled with Ketones, which are much easier for yoru body to use as energy than to start turning protein into glucose through Gluconeogenesis.

So Keto = Anabolic as it (whilst being in ketosis) spares muscles "Protein" from being converted into glucose.... since Ketones are found in your blood as an easy and clean fuel source...*

Sorry...

Did not wanna bring up an old topic but when i read somethign that's wrong i'd rather correct it than let it be...

Cheers


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