# Side Raises / Lateral Raises



## JoeShmoe

Just wondering how best to do to hit the side delt

I see folk doing what looks like 2 separate exercises

1. Low weight dumbbells and raise arms directly out to sides so arm stays straight and elbow above wrists

2. Higher weight dumbbells where they are held inward at a 45 degree angle and lifted more by the hands/elbows in an up and out motion (the arm is much more bent). At the top of that lift the palms face forward

To me they seem quite different and i do a bit of both, just wondered if they were called separate things or 2 ways of doing the same lift?

Have to say the first one is hard but because the weights are so low i guess thats why not many do it :laugh:


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## Breda

The second way is just wrong


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## flinty90

i think powehouse posted these but they look quite good..


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## GShock

Good video that guy is "hench" the guy with the camera 45sec in is "hencher" ... I do DB lateral raises as the video I also do them with a cable off the floor ..... this is very informative, she asks you to think of "jugs" at the top of the movement and that's exactly what I do


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## monkeybiker

By bending your elbows you are bring the weight closer to your body so making it easier. I think both methods do the same thing but like you say bending the elbows lets you lift heavier so gives a bigger ego boost. Your probably better to keep the arms straight so it keeps it consistent because if you bend your elbows the angle could change from week to week.


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## MRSTRONG

flinty90 said:


> i think powehouse posted these but they look quite good..


thats james L at the ministry of muscle ... although the gym has moved to a new site now as i train there .

that way hits more middle to rear delts .

if you keep your forearm at right angle to upper arm starting at bottom position then raise whole arm still at right angle til elbow is just above delt that is correct way to hit middle delt .

keeping your arm straight and raising out and up to delt level is still correct just not best imo .


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## Rottee

GShock said:


> Good video that guy is "hench" the guy with the camera 45sec in is "hencher" ... I do DB lateral raises as the video I also do them with a cable off the floor ..... this is very informative, she asks you to think of "jugs" at the top of the movement and that's exactly what I do


Shes got a cracking body!!


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## MRSTRONG

sh1t video but this is how its done .

these properly hit the mid delt and allow for less swinging , try both methods and see which one you can isolate the mid delt with better ...


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## JoeShmoe

ewen said:


> sh1t video but this is how its done .
> 
> these properly hit the mid delt and allow for less swinging , try both methods and see which one you can isolate the mid delt with better ...


Aye, that's definitely the second way i referred to in the OP, and the fit bird vid is the first way

As i say i've been doing a bit of both and sounds like they hit different areas so i'll keep mixing it up and using both


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## dtlv

I mix up variations of laterals, and think all the ways of doing them above work when you get the form right. Laterals are key to shapely delts IMO, and are an important bodybuilding exercise.


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## Ak_88

^^ I find those a bit of a peculiar way to do the exercise; you have a very short lever compared to if you were using a near-fully extended elbow, ok the overall range taking place at the shoulder joint isn't very different; but I wonder if there's an impact on the position of the DB relative to the movement taking place (i.e in the above the DB is in front of the plane of movement, whereas using a straighter arm would place the path of movement directly in line with the movement).

Also, why do people not work through the full range of shoulder abduction and stop at 90 degrees? Again I wonder if this has any influence on scapulohumeral rhythm by not going through the range that'd involve the traps too to work the full force couple.

A lot of that will probably go over peoples heads but any discussion is welcome


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## jake87

flinty90 said:


> i think powehouse posted these but they look quite good..


tried them, most awkward and needless exercise ive ever done


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## eezy1

i do cable laterals supersetted with light`ish DB laterals and get a nice burn.

only jugs am thinking about are hers :blink: dayum


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## Mighty.Panda

I have to do the 45 degree versions.. When I do them fully at the side my wrist pops half way, does the same on most dumbell isolations that put force on the wrist like kickbacks, and bicep curls, strangely flys are okay though


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## jay101

seated side lateral raises with almost straight arms normally do a drop set to failure


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## jay101

Mighty.Panda said:


> I have to do the 45 degree versions.. When I do them fully at the side my wrist pops half way, does the same on most dumbell isolations that put force on the wrist like kickbacks, and bicep curls, strangely flys are okay though


I get a wrist pain when i bb curl have to use ez bar and wouldn't bother with kickbacks


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## MRSTRONG

Ak_88 said:


> ^^ I find those a bit of a peculiar way to do the exercise; you have a very short lever compared to if you were using a near-fully extended elbow, ok the overall range taking place at the shoulder joint isn't very different; but I wonder if there's an impact on the position of the DB relative to the movement taking place (i.e in the above the DB is in front of the plane of movement, whereas using a straighter arm would place the path of movement directly in line with the movement).
> 
> Also, why do people not work through the full range of shoulder abduction and stop at 90 degrees? Again I wonder if this has any influence on scapulohumeral rhythm by not going through the range that'd involve the traps too to work the full force couple.
> 
> A lot of that will probably go over peoples heads but any discussion is welcome


regards to the lever no matter where a 10kg weight it it is still 10kg .

when the elbow leads due to the weight being out in front the mid delt is pushed out and used more than arm straight .


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## flinty90

ewen said:


> regards to the lever no matter where a 10kg weight it it is still 10kg .
> 
> when the elbow leads due to the weight being out in front the mid delt is pushed out and used more than arm straight .


would you say that this method but single arm seated would be the perfect side lat raise then mate ????


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## Mighty.Panda

jay101 said:


> I get a wrist pain when i bb curl have to use ez bar and wouldn't bother with kickbacks


Haha I know their regarded as a *** excercise but their one of the best excercises you can do work the long head. But anyway hush.. or we'll have a huge tangent on gay excercises lol. I'm the same ez bar is the only way for me bloody annoying.


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## jay101

Mighty.Panda said:


> Haha I know their regarded as a *** excercise but their one of the best excercises you can do work the long head. But anyway hush.. or we'll have a huge tangent on gay excercises lol. I'm the same ez bar is the only way for me bloody annoying.


especially when the gym only has one ez bar and some cnut holds onto it like he's in love with it 5kg each side.

try the kick backs with cable


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## MRSTRONG

flinty90 said:


> would you say that this method but single arm seated would be the perfect side lat raise then mate ????


i would say it would be better .

in my gym there is a seated side lat raise machine and ive had better gains from this type of movement than straight arm .

try them m8 see whats best for you .


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## bdcc

Ak_88 said:


> ^^ I find those a bit of a peculiar way to do the exercise; you have a very short lever compared to if you were using a near-fully extended elbow, ok the overall range taking place at the shoulder joint isn't very different; but I wonder if there's an impact on the position of the DB relative to the movement taking place (i.e in the above the DB is in front of the plane of movement, whereas using a straighter arm would place the path of movement directly in line with the movement).
> 
> Also, why do people not work through the full range of shoulder abduction and stop at 90 degrees? Again I wonder if this has any influence on scapulohumeral rhythm by not going through the range that'd involve the traps too to work the full force couple.
> 
> A lot of that will probably go over peoples heads but any discussion is welcome


Amongst other things it would probably because of the strength curve of the exercise, if you take it too high you would end up putting less stress on the shoulder because a dumbbell is only going against gravity, if you take it above your head you are taking the strain away from your glenohumeral abductors and putting it on your supporting structures.

Holding a dumbbell out at 90 degrees abduction is much harder than holding that same dumbbell over your head. The rotation of the joint would also make your proposed exercise feel very awkward doing it with a significant external load.



ewen said:


> regards to the lever no matter where a 10kg weight it it is still 10kg .
> 
> when the elbow leads due to the weight being out in front the mid delt is pushed out and used more than arm straight .


10kg is 10kg but 10kg lateral raises with a bent elbow does not put the same stress on your medial deltoid as it does with a straight arm. The further away you go from the fulcrum or pivot point the less advantage the lever has.

As an easy to relate to example do a set of flyes with your arms almost completely straight, you will find them much easier doing them with bent arms because you are shortening the lever and putting less stress on the pec.


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## MRSTRONG

bdcc said:


> 10kg is 10kg but 10kg lateral raises with a bent elbow does not put the same stress on your medial deltoid as it does with a straight arm. The further away you go from the fulcrum or pivot point the less advantage the lever has.
> 
> As an easy to relate to example do a set of flyes with your arms almost completely straight, you will find them much easier doing them with bent arms because you are shortening the lever and putting less stress on the pec.


heres an easy to relate to example of a bent arm side raise ...

with your arm by your side make forearm 90 degrees to upper arm now tense bicep tricep forearm and grip .... mid delt want to tense too however front and rear do not .

apply an upwards movement to said arm and deltoid tenses further .

try again with straight arm 

bdcc how much can you over head press ?


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## bdcc

I am not saying you can't do laterals with a bent elbow, you might feel more mind muscle connection. The point I was making is you said 10kg is 10kg whether you bend the arm or not. Using the same load, the deltoid would have more strain on it with a straight arm than a bent one.


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## MRSTRONG

bdcc said:


> I am not saying you can't do laterals with a bent elbow, you might feel more mind muscle connection. The point I was making is you said 10kg is 10kg whether you bend the arm or not. Using the same load, the deltoid would have more strain on it with a straight arm than a bent one.


the deltoid as a whole not the middle deltoid but again 10kg is 10kg if arm is bent or not , when doing them straight arm other factors are at work as indeed are other muscles .

in terms of bodybuilding and isolating then arm bent is best would you not agree ?


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## bdcc

I personally wouldn't agree, no. A traditional lateral raise without changing elbow angles and hand angles is used for the medial deltoid. To put the most stress on this you would use a straight arm, it is the weakest lever and therefore the medial deltoid has the most work to do.

Using a bent arm would put more work on the external rotators to prevent your shoulder from rotating inwards but I wouldn't train the external rotators of the shoulder with an isometric lateral raise, I would use another exercise.

If you want to put maximal isolation onto the medial deltoid, I stick with doing lateral raises with a straight arm.


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## MRSTRONG

bdcc said:


> I personally wouldn't agree, no. A traditional lateral raise without changing elbow angles and hand angles is used for the medial deltoid. To put the most stress on this you would use a straight arm, it is the weakest lever and therefore the medial deltoid has the most work to do.
> 
> Using a bent arm would put more work on the external rotators to prevent your shoulder from rotating inwards but I wouldn't train the external rotators of the shoulder with an isometric lateral raise, I would use another exercise.
> 
> If you want to put maximal isolation onto the medial deltoid, I stick with doing lateral raises with a straight arm.


is that you in your avi ?

and how much can you over head press ?


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## bdcc

I have no idea why that that is a pertinent question when discussing biomechanics.

Yes, it is me and I haven't maxed out on an overhead press in years so I would have no idea.


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## MRSTRONG

bdcc said:


> I have no idea why that that is a pertinent question when discussing biomechanics.
> 
> Yes, it is me and I haven't maxed out on an overhead press in years so I would have no idea.


it wasnt i was curious .

that is all


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## flinty90

ewen said:


> it wasnt i was curious .
> 
> that is all


LOL its all about weight with you isnt it mate, did you want him to tell you so you could call him a pussy and procced to OHP your pc shouting " you cant see me " lol !!!


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## MRSTRONG

flinty90 said:


> LOL its all about weight with you isnt it mate, did you want him to tell you so you could call him a pussy and procced to OHP your pc shouting " you cant see me " lol !!!


lol yeah something like that :confused1: .......

nah its my ohp night gonna try 130 on the axle .


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## Ak_88

Ewen; you seem to be missing the importance of lever length. The external load (weight used) may be absolute, but the mechanical advantage changes relative to the position of the prime mover (arms,legs, trunk).

Is a deadlift easier when you drag it up your shins or when its 2 inches away from you?

Is it easier to handle an atlas stone when its tucked into your torso or holding it out at arms length?

Basic biomechanics.


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## dtlv

Best 'side delt' exercise I've found is where you start at the bottom the same as if starting db presses, but as you push up with your shoulder, rather than also pushing upwards extending your arm, keep your elbow locked in the same position so that the inside bells of the dbs come together behind your head in a similar position to the starting point for overhead db triceps extensions rather than coming over your head to a standard press finish. This exercise feels like a lateral raise in respect of how it fatigues the muscle, but allows more weight than a lateral raise and IMO more growth.


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## Ash1981

Dtlv74 said:


> Best 'side delt' exercise I've found is where you start at the bottom the same as if starting db presses, but as you push up with your shoulder, rather than also pushing upwards extending your arm, keep your elbow locked in the same position so that the inside bells of the dbs come together behind your head in a similar position to the starting point for overhead db triceps extensions rather than coming over your head to a standard press finish. This exercise feels like a lateral raise in respect of how it fatigues the muscle, but allows more weight than a lateral raise and IMO more growth.


Im trying but i cant work that one out, i want to though.

i do one arm db side lateralls, maybe thats wrong but its a variation


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## flinty90

ash1981 said:


> Im trying but i cant work that one out, i want to though.
> 
> i do one arm db side lateralls, maybe thats wrong but its a variation


i was struggling but i worked it out

sit on a benc as if your doing a dumbell shoulder press then instead of pressing dumbells up like you would for shouders just push your hands together behind your head till dumbells touch and then back down to start ...

so your avi the hand your tensing would have a dumbell in it at that angle same with other arm then basically just bring hands together behind your head !!!

does that make more sense ???


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## Ash1981

Dtlv74 said:


> Best 'side delt' exercise I've found is where you start at the bottom the same as if starting db presses, but as you push up with your shoulder, rather than also pushing upwards extending your arm, keep your elbow locked in the same position so that the inside bells of the dbs come together behind your head in a similar position to the starting point for overhead db triceps extensions rather than coming over your head to a standard press finish. This exercise feels like a lateral raise in respect of how it fatigues the muscle, but allows more weight than a lateral raise and IMO more growth.


Oh yes Flintster, i see. kind of works the side and rear laterals


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## MRSTRONG

Ak_88 said:


> Ewen; you seem to be missing the importance of lever length. The external load (weight used) may be absolute, but the mechanical advantage changes relative to the position of the prime mover (arms,legs, trunk).
> 
> Is a deadlift easier when you drag it up your shins or when its 2 inches away from you?
> 
> Is it easier to handle an atlas stone when its tucked into your torso or holding it out at arms length?
> 
> Basic biomechanics.


i havent missed the point at all , arms straight as i said hits delts but uses more secondary muscles simple basic bio-mechanics ...

using an arms bent will hit the mid delt better leverage or not .

infact leverage was not the issue nor the question raise your arm with forearm bent ...... less secondarys are used now raise it straight more secondarys are used leverage should not be used when trying to fully isolate the mi delt < simple gym bro science 

actually dragging the bar up yourself when deadlifting is wrong due to extra friction but then that point would be in the leverage league .... a pointless statement .

as for your atlas stone example good luck trying to hold one at arms length , even more pointless statement .

so whats the difference between deadlifting and picking up an atlas stone in terms of bio-mechanics ?


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## MRSTRONG

Dtlv74 said:


> Best 'side delt' exercise I've found is where you start at the bottom the same as if starting db presses, but as you push up with your shoulder, rather than also pushing upwards extending your arm, keep your elbow locked in the same position so that the inside bells of the dbs come together behind your head in a similar position to the starting point for overhead db triceps extensions rather than coming over your head to a standard press finish. This exercise feels like a lateral raise in respect of how it fatigues the muscle, but allows more weight than a lateral raise and IMO more growth.


i can feel my mid delt working when trying these unweighted kind of a standing shoulder fly hmm this needs a name like arnold press not sure dtlv74 fly would catch on though lol


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## Ak_88

ewen said:


> i havent missed the point at all , arms straight as i said hits delts but uses more secondary muscles simple basic bio-mechanics ...
> 
> using an arms bent will hit the mid delt better leverage or not .
> 
> infact leverage was not the issue nor the question raise your arm with forearm bent ...... less secondarys are used now raise it straight more secondarys are used leverage should not be used when trying to fully isolate the mi delt < simple gym bro science


Ok, if you're using the term 'broscience' in a positive light, I'll use real science to spell out how the shoulder functions during abduction.

During shoulder abduction, the initial 30 degrees comes from the glenohumeral joint, after which the glenohumeral joint and scapulothoracic joint move simultaneously at a ratio 2:1. The movement initiator is the supraspinatus, after which the lateral deltoid provides glenohumeral abduction. When the scapulothoracic joint begins to move, the serratus anterior and trapezius work as a force couple to upwardly rotate the scapula.

I'm not saying that performing lateral raises with the elbows bent won't hit the lateral deltoid, but at no point does the degree of elbow flexion used affect the recruitment of the primary and secondary muscles because the change in mechanical advantage based upon the lever length is compensated (positively or negatively) by the external load used. Placing the external load further from the articulating joints necessitates greater muscular effort to generate torque to complete the movement required, and vice versa with the potential to use a greater load if closer to the articulating joints.



> actually dragging the bar up yourself when deadlifting is wrong due to extra friction but then that point would be in the leverage league .... a pointless statement.


Wrong or not, is it more difficult to deadlift with the bar closer or further away from you?



> as for your atlas stone example good luck trying to hold one at arms length , even more pointless statement .


My point exactly, why is it impossible to hold it at arms length? Because it is high external load combined with a long lever length, rather than a low-load and long-ever or high-load and short-lever



> so whats the difference between deadlifting and picking up an atlas stone in terms of bio-mechanics ?


Done correctly deadlifts teach fantastic hip extension, scapular retraction and neutral spine positioning. Atlas stones on the other hand involve a lot of movement occurring at the lumbar spine, which is an area that is designed for stability, not mobility.


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## MRSTRONG

Ak_88 said:


> Ok, if you're using the term 'broscience' in a positive light, I'll use real science to spell out how the shoulder functions during abduction.
> 
> During shoulder abduction, the initial 30 degrees comes from the glenohumeral joint, after which the glenohumeral joint and scapulothoracic joint move simultaneously at a ratio 2:1. The movement initiator is the supraspinatus, after which the lateral deltoid provides glenohumeral abduction. When the scapulothoracic joint begins to move, the serratus anterior and trapezius work as a force couple to upwardly rotate the scapula.
> 
> I'm not saying that performing lateral raises with the elbows bent won't hit the lateral deltoid, but at no point does the degree of elbow flexion used affect the recruitment of the primary and secondary muscles because the change in mechanical advantage based upon the lever length is compensated (positively or negatively) by the external load used. Placing the external load further from the articulating joints necessitates greater muscular effort to generate torque to complete the movement required, and vice versa with the potential to use a greater load if closer to the articulating joints.
> 
> Wrong or not, is it more difficult to deadlift with the bar closer or further away from you?
> 
> My point exactly, why is it impossible to hold it at arms length? Because it is high external load combined with a long lever length, rather than a low-load and long-ever or high-load and short-lever
> 
> Done correctly deadlifts teach fantastic hip extension, scapular retraction and neutral spine positioning. Atlas stones on the other hand involve a lot of movement occurring at the lumbar spine, which is an area that is designed for stability, not mobility.


wow you replied and i cant be bothered to read it im disappointed with myself :lol:

ok so you have proved a superior knowledge of science than me .

i also have bigger shoulders can deadlift more and actually lift atlas stones .

as for bro science this means far more than real science does .

to answer your deadlift question yes its harder the further away .... happy ?

the difference between picking up a stone and deadlifting is (variables aside like shape ) 0 to lift a stone correctly one must deadlift it .

when doing a side raise arms bent users seem to use less gravity and more muscle , arms straight and users will do anything to raise that weight meaning to many secondary`s .

you may have the actual science but maybe you should leave that outside the gym next time and lift weights in a manner you can feel your body working harder .

when all is said and done science dont lift weights .


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## flinty90

ewen said:


> wow you replied and i cant be bothered to read it im disappointed with myself :lol:
> 
> ok so you have proved a superior knowledge of science than me .
> 
> i also have bigger shoulders can deadlift more and actually lift atlas stones .
> 
> as for bro science this means far more than real science does .
> 
> to answer your deadlift question yes its harder the further away .... happy ?
> 
> the difference between picking up a stone and deadlifting is (variables aside like shape ) 0 to lift a stone correctly one must deadlift it .
> 
> when doing a side raise arms bent users seem to use less gravity and more muscle , arms straight and users will do anything to raise that weight meaning to many secondary`s .
> 
> you may have the actual science but maybe you should leave that outside the gym next time and lift weights in a manner you can feel your body working harder .
> 
> when all is said and done science dont lift weights .


lol....


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## MRSTRONG

flinty90 said:


> lol....


 :lol:


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## Ak_88

ewen said:


> the difference between picking up a stone and deadlifting is (variables aside like shape ) 0 to lift a stone correctly one must deadlift it .


The difference is though, lifting an atlas stone relies on a combination of lumbar spine extension and hip extension, a well performed deadlift has no movement occurring at the lumbar spine; hip extension is the prime movement taking place. One is good for your long term health, the other isn't. No prizes for guessing which is which.



> when doing a side raise arms bent users seem to use less gravity and more muscle , arms straight and users will do anything to raise that weight meaning to many secondary`s .


Gravity's a constant force, you can't manipulate it. If your aim is to train the lateral deltoid, then the compensation of 'secondarys' comes through shrugging of the shoulder so you use scapular elevation instead of glenohumeral abduction. This isn't reflective of either bent- or straight-arm lateral raises, just that the weight's too heavy and you're compensating.



> you may have the actual science but maybe you should leave that outside the gym next time and lift weights in a manner you can feel your body working harder
> 
> when all is said and done science dont lift weights .


You're right, science doesn't lift weights, but if something 'feels' harder then there will be a plausible explanation behind it, otherwise, it's just unfounded broscience that filters through too many gym goers without a clue for what's going on.


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## ZAXXXXX

Single arm cable laterals are the best way in my opinion, your lifting the the full load right from the start of the movement instead of when your hands about 24" out from the side of your thigh as with a dumbbell


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## MRSTRONG

Ak_88 said:


> The difference is though, lifting an atlas stone relies on a combination of lumbar spine extension and hip extension, a well performed deadlift has no movement occurring at the lumbar spine; hip extension is the prime movement taking place. One is good for your long term health, the other isn't. No prizes for guessing which is which.
> 
> Gravity's a constant force, you can't manipulate it. If your aim is to train the lateral deltoid, then the compensation of 'secondarys' comes through shrugging of the shoulder so you use scapular elevation instead of glenohumeral abduction. This isn't reflective of either bent- or straight-arm lateral raises, just that the weight's too heavy and you're compensating.
> 
> You're right, science doesn't lift weights, but if something 'feels' harder then there will be a plausible explanation behind it, otherwise, it's just unfounded broscience that filters through too many gym goers without a clue for what's going on.


lifting an atlas stone is very much blah blah blah whatever .

ok tom mgee like yourself relied on science to gain the edge in lifting weights .

but m8 let it go just go and lift some weights and just be happy no need for science overload .

many top bodybuilders use bro science and swear by it .

would i listen to a muscular guy that speaks my lingo or a muscular version of you ?

no offence but i would ask you to read me a bed time story .

i agree with almost everything you say but i know how to hit my mid delt better than you or science .

all i can ever give people is my opinion as can you unless you think of yourself as a dictator .


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## Ak_88

LOL, dude don't worry I'm not trying to be a cnut, I'm just a science whore and enjoy being challenged.

I don't agree with size being a precursor to giving advice though, whether that comes from being a skinny cnut or not who knows, but IMO excluding someone's knowledge based upon ther build is a peculiar move.

All's I do is state the facts, it's up to others if they want to listen, learn more or disregard it, it has no bearing on my life at the end of the day!


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## MRSTRONG

Ak_88 said:


> LOL, dude don't worry I'm not trying to be a cnut, I'm just a science whore and enjoy being challenged.
> 
> I don't agree with size being a precursor to giving advice though, whether that comes from being a skinny cnut or not who knows, but IMO excluding someone's knowledge based upon ther build is a peculiar move.
> 
> All's I do is state the facts, it's up to others if they want to listen, learn more or disregard it, it has no bearing on my life at the end of the day!


haha hey your not so bad afterall but no one likes a smart ass lol

thing is put me in a gym with you and ill make your muscles cry even your mid delts :lol:

i was 12 stone not too long ago that why i preach what i do because i have the shirt through blood sweat and tears .

if you find yourself in kent look me up ill blast your shoulders for you brother


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