# 1st D-Bol Cycle



## fifibobo (Oct 29, 2007)

Ok, just started first cycle of D-Bol. Am taking 4x10 tabs (Danabol blue hearts), spread throughout day. Every 2nd day, Tamoxifen 20mg. PCT will be Chlomid.

Am also taking 1500mg Milk Thistle each day.

Have got diet sorted for some time & just started new routine a few weeks ago, so all set. Will post pics & stats tomorrow.

Have a couple of questions.

1. Should I be taking Tamoxifen every 2nd day & if so, is the amount adequate?

2. Is there any difference in taking the Tamoxifen at night or morning?

Any other views or suggestions appreciated.


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

because you do not know how your body will react to D/bol as in if you will get gyno then i suggest you use 20mg of Nolva ed splitting 10mg in the morning and 10mg at night.


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## Greyphantom (Oct 23, 2003)

TBH I wouldnt take the nolva unless adverse symptoms started appearing. If they do then take it... jmho though...


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## fifibobo (Oct 29, 2007)

Thanks for the responses. So should I just stay off Tamoxifen unless I notice any of the usual symptoms & use as part of PCT? 6 days since started course & no gyno symptoms are showing.

Weighed myself just before starting course & weighed in at 210lbs. Am 6'4" and 35yrs old. Typical day's food:

*Breakfast:*

1 large bowl of porridge

1 bannana

1 protein shake

*Mid Morning:*

Tuna Roll (half tin)

Bannana

*Lunch:*

Protein Shake

Tuna & Pasta Salad

*Snack:*

*
*Tuna Roll (half tin)

*Evening Meal:*

*
*Protein Shake

Chicken/Steak/Fish

Potatoes/Pasta

Veg

*Snack:*

*
*Tuna Roll (half tin)

*Supplements:*

*
*Creatine

Amino Acid Tabs

Milk Thistle (1500mg)

I train 3 times per week, with chest, shoulders & triceps day one, back, forearms & biceps day two, with legs/calfs on day 3. Abs are also done each training day. I do all the core excercises; deadlift, squats & bench as well as some more compounds & a couple of isolators.

These are done as 3 sets of 12 reps or to failure.

Have seen a 5kg gain in bench press & am feeling stronger in myself when training - more aggression. No adverse signs apart from slight headaches in evenings which are disappearing.

If any more detail is needed, please ask. Thanks for any advice; appreciated.


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## The Iron (Aug 21, 2007)

First glance you need more food mate, you will gain on dbol prety muhc regardless but it will be mainly water, give your body the stuff it needs to grow - food,food,food


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## 13stonetarget (Aug 21, 2007)

Hi mate, you're relying pretty heavily on tuna there 

There's not many calories in tuna, pretty much just protein, plus half a tin isn't a massive amount of protein...

Looks like you could do with getting some eggs, oily fish, nuts etc into your diet for some decent healthy fats, too


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## invisiblekid (Jun 18, 2006)

fifibobo said:


> *Breakfast:*
> 
> 1 large bowl of porridge
> 
> ...


Also - when do you train? I can't see any PWO nutrition in there.

I'm sure you've heard it before - but why are you thinking about gear when your diet isn't as good as it should be - IMO.


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## fifibobo (Oct 29, 2007)

Excellent advice - makes sense, cheers lads. I do substitute chicken breast & mackerel for tuna, but will take advide on board. Did snack on cashews, but salted. Have cut salted out due to what i'm taking just now & water levels.

Thanks for info....taking on board.


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## invisiblekid (Jun 18, 2006)

Nice to see a sensible response for a change rather than a tantrum.

Mackerel would be a perfect addition as would almonds or any nuts really. Health food shops do a good selection of none salted etc...nuts.


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## fifibobo (Oct 29, 2007)

invisiblekid said:


> Also - when do you train? I can't see any PWO nutrition in there.
> 
> I'm sure you've heard it before - but why are you thinking about gear when your diet isn't as good as it should be - IMO.


Training would be before evening meal, thats why I take a protein shake with this for PWO. Always try to get a bowl of porridge in about an hour before training. Thanks for advice, thats why I'm here.


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## 13stonetarget (Aug 21, 2007)

Cool, good stuff  What's your routine like?


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## fifibobo (Oct 29, 2007)

invisiblekid said:


> Nice to see a sensible response for a change rather than a tantrum.
> 
> lol! Not my style - I'm here for advice & you guys have a wealth of it.


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## invisiblekid (Jun 18, 2006)

If you can get a plate of white fish and white rice/potato down you quickly after training then there is no need for a PWO shake. But if you are going longer than say 30-45mins I'd seriously look at a shake straight after training.

Either protein and simple carbs (waxy maize starch for example) or some prefer carbs such as oats or palatinose. Experiment.


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## fifibobo (Oct 29, 2007)

13stonetarget said:


> Cool, good stuff  What's your routine like?


*Mondays:*

Flat bench press (barbell)

Incline bench (dumbell)

Incline Fly's (dumbell)

Shoulder press

Upright rowing

Deltoid raises

Tricep dips

French tricep curl

*Wednesdays:*

Deadlifts

Bent Over rowing

Shrugs

Dumbell curls

Hammer curls

Forearms curls

Another forearm excercise I don't know name of(!)

*Fridays:*

Squats

Hack squats

Leg extensions

Calf raises

Always do abs at end of each session.


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## 13stonetarget (Aug 21, 2007)

Personally mate, I would drop the bicep and forearm work, most people grow well without any direct arm workouts, I know I'm one of them 

I'd also probably drop the rows from Monday, too.

Just my 2p.


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## fifibobo (Oct 29, 2007)

13stonetarget said:


> Personally mate, I would drop the bicep and forearm work, most people grow well without any direct arm workouts, I know I'm one of them
> 
> Actually used to do barbell curls & never gained on bi's really. Changed to what I am doing & seen a marked increase over past few months. Will keep this in mind if things go 'stale', or may try to mess things up a bit.
> 
> It's worth adding that I keep my form as strict as possible & always under a controlled manner. Find I get a really good pump with exaggerated (slow) reps with good form rather than banging on the weight regardless. One of the reasons I train at home in garage I've set up.


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## 13stonetarget (Aug 21, 2007)

Fair play, everyone reacts differently 

Good luck with your cycle mate!


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## fifibobo (Oct 29, 2007)

Cheers; will post & keep updated with what happens. One thing that I have noticed is how keen I am to get into gym & start pumping....


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## Greyphantom (Oct 23, 2003)

fifibobo said:


> Cheers; will post & keep updated with what happens. One thing that I have noticed is how keen I am to get into gym & start pumping....


yeah but what about the weights


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## MXMAD (Oct 11, 2007)

Il keep an eye on this thread will be good to see the gains you keep.

Get some pics up mate.


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## fifibobo (Oct 29, 2007)

Have attached 2 pics taken on night I started course.

Had some aching/cramp in ankles this evening for about an hour. Water retention? Also, anyone got an answer for previous question about Tamoxifen; advisable to take 20mg every second day or use when/if any signs of gyno appear?

Thanks lads....


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## fifibobo (Oct 29, 2007)

Greyphantom said:


> yeah but what about the weights


  ROTFLMAO!!


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## Mars (Aug 25, 2007)

First off, Hi and good luck on your 1st cycle.

Short cycle, sensible dose, imo id take the nolva only if my nips started getting sore. I may have missed it but did you mention how long the cycle would be?


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## fifibobo (Oct 29, 2007)

mars1960 said:


> I may have missed it but did you mention how long the cycle would be?


Hi Mars & thanks. Planning a six week cycle, but reading a few posts about this maybe being a bit long?


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## Mars (Aug 25, 2007)

6wks is fine for a 1st cycle. See how you go, if sides get too bad lower the dose.


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## Mars (Aug 25, 2007)

bump zzzzzzzz


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## fifibobo (Oct 29, 2007)

Cheers, will stick with the 6 weeks. Have also heard using just Tamoxifen is ok for PCT rather than Chlomid as easier on the liver. I realise it's a very personal thing due to the way the individual body reacts, but was wondering if it's ok to use just Tamoxifen or play safe & use Chlomid as well?


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## Greyphantom (Oct 23, 2003)

Yep as I mentioned personally I would take the nolva/tamox only if symptoms began to appear... I also like using nolva/tamox for pct, I found I came back very well on them and my body seemed to like them better than clomid... I only used novla but you could use both...


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## fifibobo (Oct 29, 2007)

Greyphantom said:


> Yep as I mentioned personally I would take the nolva/tamox only if symptoms began to appear... I also like using nolva/tamox for pct, I found I came back very well on them and my body seemed to like them better than clomid... I only used novla but you could use both...


Cheers Phantom - think I'll just take the Nolva with Chlomid on hand. What sort of dosage would you take for a 40mg p day, 6 week cycle?


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## Greyphantom (Oct 23, 2003)

for pct... 60mg first day, 40 a day for the next 4 or 5 days and then 20mg for the rest of two to 3 weeks depending on the size and length of cycle... I found this served me well...


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## fifibobo (Oct 29, 2007)

Cheers Phantom. Noticed Wednesday evening's session was much more intense, but putting most of this down to psych. Lower legs/cals have been getting cramps, so maybe water retention showing.

Went for sitting at tattooists yesterday. 4 hour sitting and taking in all this water definitely made things interesting....tried holding on as long as possible, but danger of bladder exploding! 

Legs still suffering from slight cramps, but had rods & pins removed (July) after 10 year period from left tibia after bad bike accident, so presume this is making left leg worse.

Wife mentioned yesterday:

"You are looking.....bulkier. Are you taking anything?".

Nearly choked on 'ma porrdige!!:

"No dear."

Was the reply. 

Needeless to say, I have not told her about this 'experiment'.

Friday tonight, and legs, so will keep you updated as to what happens & post updated stats on Tuesday. Have taken on board camments about diet & adjusted accordingly - cheers lads.


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## 13stonetarget (Aug 21, 2007)

:lol: dude I reckon she's gonna notice the extra weight :lol:

Glad to hear things are going well.


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## fifibobo (Oct 29, 2007)

13stonetarget said:


> :lol: dude I reckon she's gonna notice the extra weight :lol:


Lol! Am gonna blame it on the 'weight gain 4000'!!


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## 7i7 (Sep 22, 2007)

fifibobo said:


> Lol! Am gonna blame it on the 'weight gain 4000'!!


:madgrin:


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## Greyphantom (Oct 23, 2003)

fifibobo said:


> Lol! Am gonna blame it on the 'weight gain 4000'!!


LMAO... also get some creatine just a small tub will do and let her see you take it a time or two... then tell her that this creatine is some wonder stuff... not that I have experience with this you understand...


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## fifibobo (Oct 29, 2007)

Greyphantom said:


> LMAO... also get some creatine just a small tub will do and let her see you take it a time or two... then tell her that this creatine is some wonder stuff... not that I have experience with this you understand...


lol! Of course..  Have been talking with my training partner. He is doing this natty, and so will be monitoring his gains alongside mine as diets & routines the same. Will give updated stats & photos after Mondays session.

Last nights session was good. Can definitely feel am training harder. Just wanted to slap more weight on, but added a little, still keeping form good. Left knee giving me jip - down to rod removed but have had no real pain up until this point. Have just got some straps to strap this knee up good & tight!

Am looking forward to weighing myself on Monday morning, as am sure gains are starting.

Until Monday.....


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## fifibobo (Oct 29, 2007)

Weighed myself this morning - 216lbs. 210lbs this time last week. :bounce:

Was also wondering about training. I used to overtrain, but started this new routine & seems better. Question I have is; now I'm taking d-bol, can I up my training? Feel I could have another session each group, rather than each muscle group being trained once per week. Don't want to overdo it, but want to maximise results.

Opinions apreciated on this one.


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## fifibobo (Oct 29, 2007)

Ok, took some more photos last night after training. Am suspect about my scales as know I've put weight on, but 6lbs since I last weighed myself?:crazy:

Am going to buy another set just to be sure.

Chest, shoulders & triceps last night. Got an amazing pump on the chest & triceps to the point I thought my triceps were going to burst. Did some heavier weights and lower reps on chest, but still feel I get more from higher reps - much better pump.

Photos below show 'fuzzy', my training partner underneath mine. His stats are:

Age:21

Height:6'

Weight:200lbs

Training plan same as mine, and similar diet.

Going to get a tape measure so I can take measurements weekly as well.


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## fifibobo (Oct 29, 2007)

Had a very good session last night. After reading a few posts, took 1 d-bol an hour before training & one after. Definitely trained harder than usual & feel it today. Wife commented:

"Your face looks puffier - have you been sleeping?"

"Yes dear".

Putting this down to water retention. Weighed myself with new scales, and old ones were bang on.


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## MXMAD (Oct 11, 2007)

What have you got in that shaker bottle?


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## 13stonetarget (Aug 21, 2007)

Looks like Maxi-****e-muscle stuff to me! Ditch it, burn it, flush it down the toilet, just don't ****ing drink it!


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## fifibobo (Oct 29, 2007)

MXMAD said:


> What have you got in that shaker bottle?


PMSL! It's a shaker with MyProtein bulk whey protein in it. MaxiOOPS gave me the sh*ts! Wife freaked out at the price anyways, so that was that. 

I just use this whey powder & ground porridge oats. Cheap & does what it says on the tin. I think it's Fuzzy's you can see - water mix as Lactose intolerant we were to find out, but thats another story albeit funny as feck.


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## MXMAD (Oct 11, 2007)

13stonetarget said:


> Looks like Maxi-****e-muscle stuff to me! Ditch it, burn it, flush it down the toilet, just don't ****ing drink it!


LOL.......

That made me giggle :bounce:


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## CHIRO (Nov 7, 2007)

if your looking to gain some mass add 1 Table spoon of Extra virgin olive oil to your shakes. It will actually give you clean gains as your body knows it is getting enough good fats and will burn that rather then muscle as well as taking the dbol you will blow up even more quickly. Face looking puffy = water gains but there is muscle being gained as well. Once off you will see a 5-12lb 11-26.4Kg drop as you lose the water on average that I have observed.


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## CHIRO (Nov 7, 2007)

Your trainer looks like crap IMO. Who is training who?


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## fifibobo (Oct 29, 2007)

CHIRO said:


> Your trainer looks like crap IMO. Who is training who?


Who said he was my trainer? If you read my posts, it is my training partner. He has just started training, so this will really boost his confidence - thanks for that.

For your information, he has made good progress in the past 3 weeks he's came along and don't need mindless comments like this.

Have had great advice so far from this group, a lot put into practice, but there's always one I suppose.


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## SpartanAlliance (Nov 12, 2007)

invisiblekid said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *fifibobo*
> ...


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## fifibobo (Oct 29, 2007)

fifibobo said:


> Training would be before evening meal, thats why I take a protein shake with this for PWO. Always try to get a bowl of porridge in about an hour before training. Thanks for advice, thats why I'm here.


Answered this one. Diet has been changed to incorporate more of what was recommended. My evening meal *is *PWO with shake. Is this not sufficient? Diet was changed to incorporate more carbs & changes suggested. Also take powdered oats in shakes at certain times (lunch & last thing at night), which am seeing results with - not waking up hungry.

Would just like to point something out. This time last year I was just over 13 stone after recovering from bad accident. I put weight on gradually & started training (used to train when I was younger). In June, I was just hovering about 14 stone when I upped my training. This is when things started to kick in. As far as I'm concerned, I do understand PWO nutrition etc - I used to be a chef in a previous life, so do have a good insight into nutrition. I am just building on what I have & thats why I am here at these forums - to get, share & exchange relevant info.

Can anyone answer any questions I asked? Can I hit another major muscle group eg pecs a bit harder? i.e can I have another session as feel body is recovering much quicker.

Also, weight up to 222.5lbs when weighed this morning.


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## fifibobo (Oct 29, 2007)

Have another question. My temper is getting quite nasty in the mornings. Have been looking at periods when natural testosterone levels are high. As I take my 4x10mg spread through out the day:

1 - 7am

1 - 12 noon

1 - 1 hour before training

1 - 1/2 hour after training

The morning tablet will kick in when natural test levels are quite high already, so can this be causing this swing in the mornings?

Also, more an observation - the tab taken before training definitely helps, as get a much better workout.


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## 7i7 (Sep 22, 2007)

fifibobo said:


> The morning tablet will kick in when natural test levels are quite high already, so can this be causing this swing in the mornings?


With 40mg ED you don't have natural production anymore, so thats something else 

But probably related to androgen/estrogen balance as you waking with estrogen mostly from night, eat your D and androgens rise rapidly. I'd experiment with higher dose before bed, or setting alarm in middle of the night for another dose (actually gonna do so next 'cycle in cycle')


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## fifibobo (Oct 29, 2007)

7i7 said:


> With 40mg ED you don't have natural production anymore, so thats something else
> 
> But probably related to androgen/estrogen balance as you waking with estrogen mostly from night, eat your D and androgens rise rapidly. I'd experiment with higher dose before bed, or setting alarm in middle of the night for another dose (actually gonna do so next 'cycle in cycle')


Thanks for that - realise Test production will have stopped, just wondered whether these timings had any bearing. Will experiment with when I take tabs.

Will also try not to get p*ssed about things as much. Got up at 5.30 this morning to find one of dogs had crapped all over kitchen - a lovely clear up task just before breakfast. Then wife is complaining of an ear infection, so I have to walk the dogs as well as everything else, while trying to VPN into my LAN at work & restart a server. Could feel blood boiling, but kept it all under control. Ended up laughing about it later....much later.

It is indeed a dogs life.


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## 7i7 (Sep 22, 2007)

PMSL. When it rains, it pours - yet you have the story for later


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## fifibobo (Oct 29, 2007)

7i7 said:


> PMSL. When it rains, it pours - yet you have the story for later


  I love Mondays. Previous 2 I have had a main server go down & an Intranet server go t*ts up. All before 10 am on each incident.


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## fifibobo (Oct 29, 2007)

Ok chaps, had best ever training session last night. Bench press is up another 5kg, still keeping strict form & same reps. Feeling much, much stronger, especially back/legs. These seem to have come on very well & can see more mass being added to legs. Happy with whats going on, as still quite lean looking - though I'd bloat much more.

Quick re-iteration of stats:

My weight:

Wk1:210lbs

Wk2:216lbs

Wk3:222.5lbs

Fuzzy:

Wk2:200lbs

Wk3:202lbs

So far, no surprise, D-Bol giving much bigger, quicker gains than natural. Have added updated pics.


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## Rono26 (Aug 21, 2007)

Fifibobo - Hows it going? Been doing the 14x14 cycles on 10mg DBol... im sure youve read about them on here... but have decided to try a 6 week cycle similar to yours, 40mg - but taking them at different times of the day.

How are you doing with the sides?! Any, how bad?

Have you finialised your PCT, what you going with?


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Couple of things.

For PCT I find clomid and nolva work better together than any combination of one.

Whole foods over shakes any day for reasons I can go into detail if needed, nutritionally whole foods are superior to shakes with the exception of PWO.

Anyone tells you that you have to have shakes to grow has not a clue what they are talking about.

Try and get some oily fish in your diet and or nuts and seeds, this is just good overall healthy eating anyway.

Yes d-bol can make you a bit agressive as with most steroids, for some strange reason deca made me more aggressive.

For bulking suggestions it has to be red meat hands down, you will get your b-vitamins and iron with that and this you wont get out of shakes.

I am not sure of one of your questions, where you asking to add another training day to your routine?

Looking at your routine I rather like it myself.

Only thing I would change myself is to put legs in between your other days, this will offer some more time between upper body recouperation.

The whole idea here is to stimulate, rest, then grow.

Adding in some more sleep is a good thing for recovery and actually there are studies that suggest more sleep aids in fat burning, as well as dealing with catabolic hormones like cortisol.

Other than that things look good to go.


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## fifibobo (Oct 29, 2007)

Rono26 said:


> Fifibobo - Hows it going? Been doing the 14x14 cycles on 10mg DBol... im sure youve read about them on here... but have decided to try a 6 week cycle similar to yours, 40mg - but taking them at different times of the day.
> 
> How are you doing with the sides?! Any, how bad?
> 
> Have you finialised your PCT, what you going with?


Hi Rono. Yes, have read about the 14x14 cycles - especially been reading a lot of what onesmartcookie has been writing - very interesting. I decided to go with this cycle TBH as it's my first, I wanted to maximise gains. May be wrong way of going about it; thats why i'm experimenting.

PCT will be Nolva & Chlomid with Tribulus thrown in for a kick start. Sides were fine for 1st 2 weeks. Headaches (slight) but temper flared up quickly - still does. The worst side I'm having is back pumps. Posted a thread about this & got some good advice - these have to be experienced to be believed! 

Anyways, good luck with your cycle & stay safe.


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## fifibobo (Oct 29, 2007)

Hi Hackskii, thanks for the reply; have responded below to your questions.



hackskii said:


> Couple of things.
> 
> For PCT I find clomid and nolva work better together than any combination of one.
> 
> ...


*Many thanks Hackskii. I'll post my new diet so this can get ripped apart. *


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## fifibobo (Oct 29, 2007)

Diet now consists of:

*
6am* - Porage with milk

3 eggs (scrambled) on wholegrain toast (4 slices)

Protein shake

*9am* - Egg roll

Handful of nuts

*12noon* - Tortilla wraps

Tin of tuna/chicken

Salad

Nuts

Protein shake with porage oats & 3 egg whites

*3pm *- Tin of tuna/chicken

Bread roll/pasta

Nuts

*Training*

*7pm - *Pasta/Basmati Rice/Potatoes

Chicken/Steak/Beef/Fish

Veg (dark green mostly)

Protein shake with 3 egg whites

*
10pm* - Protein shake with porage oats

Supplements are:

Creatins caps

Amino Acids (Not sure if i need these)

Whey protein

Milk Thistle

Multi vit

Omega oil (3,6,9) soft caps

Any advice welcome. 

Oh, and my weight is still climbing.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

I think that diet looks fine.


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## fifibobo (Oct 29, 2007)

Cheers Hackskii - appreciated. Weighed myself this morning, up again to 228lbs. Weight has went up :

Wk1:210lbs

Wk2:216lbs

Wk3:222.5lbs

Wk4:228.5lbs

This has increased steadily, more than I thought it would.

Back pumps have not been as bad, doing a combination of things which help this. Temper still nasty first thing in mornings & am also getting very dry/chapped lips; not sure if this is asscoiated with D-Bol. Am drinking plenty.

Was out Friday night but went onto vodka/fresh orange quickly. Don't really drink, so prepped by drinking loads of water & upping milk thisltle. Seemed to do trick as no issues.

WIll update pics tomorrow.


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## Greyphantom (Oct 23, 2003)

Its looking good mate... the weight gain is not unusual for a first cycle... plus you run a decent diet and good training... keep it up... its good to see...


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## fifibobo (Oct 29, 2007)

Cheers Phantom; 6lbs a week. Bit more than I was expecting, but loving it. Have been enjoying this 'experiment' as always had problems getting weight on. TBH I can't see too much puffiness and muscle is very hard in formation, not what I was expecting after reading others experiences. Have been targetting different muscle groups & want to get ma diddies (pecs) a lot bigger.

When it comes to pecs, how wide should the grip be on a flat bench using barbell for 'buking' pecs? Are there any variations to bench press I should try? Have read about hitting from 'different angles' - is this really needed at my stage?

Opinions appreciated folks....


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## bigacb (Nov 13, 2007)

fifibobo said:


> Cheers Phantom; 6lbs a week. Bit more than I was expecting, but loving it. Have been enjoying this 'experiment' as always had problems getting weight on. TBH I can't see too much puffiness and muscle is very hard in formation, not what I was expecting after reading others experiences. Have been targetting different muscle groups & want to get ma diddies (pecs) a lot bigger.
> 
> When it comes to pecs, how wide should the grip be on a flat bench using barbell for 'buking' pecs? Are there any variations to bench press I should try? Have read about hitting from 'different angles' - is this really needed at my stage?
> 
> Opinions appreciated folks....


I usually hold slightly wider than shoulder width but change it all the time to mix things up. Id stick with the basics like bench press incline bench decline bench and flies. Excellent gains keeps it up!


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## fifibobo (Oct 29, 2007)

bigacb said:


> I usually hold slightly wider than shoulder width but change it all the time to mix things up. Id stick with the basics like bench press incline bench decline bench and flies. Excellent gains keeps it up!


Cheers bigacb, appreciate comments. Do try to mix things up a bit. Have moved legs to Wed rather than Fri, so upper body is Mon & Fri - it was Hackskii who recommended this & does make more sense.

Just feel I can train more & want to do more as recovery times are very quick just now, but realise have to keep it strict. Grrrrrrrr.........:mad:


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## Greyphantom (Oct 23, 2003)

I recently changed my grip from forefinger on the ring in the knurling to little finger just inside the ring and I have noticed it seems to hit the pecs much more...


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## fifibobo (Oct 29, 2007)

Greyphantom said:


> I recently changed my grip from forefinger on the ring in the knurling to little finger just inside the ring and I have noticed it seems to hit the pecs much more...


  Sorry for sounding a t*t phantom, but can you explain this grip so a Scotsam can understand - it's Monday morning.


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## bigacb (Nov 13, 2007)

fifibobo said:


> Sorry for sounding a t*t phantom, but can you explain this grip so a Scotsam can understand - it's Monday morning.


I think he means the rings on an olympic bar. They are positioned slightly wider than shoulder width. He means (i think) that he has moved his hands a bit closer together on the bench press in lehmans terms.


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## 7i7 (Sep 22, 2007)

You did waist/chest/thigh/arm measurements before? You can expect 40-60% to be glycogen (water weight), also if your diet is over 4k kcal bit of fat as well.

Flat, incline, dips and tad of pec deck is all your chest needs imo.


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## fifibobo (Oct 29, 2007)

bigacb said:


> I think he means the rings on an olympic bar. They are positioned slightly wider than shoulder width. He means (i think) that he has moved his hands a bit closer together on the bench press in lehmans terms.


Ok, feel I've not been getting gains I should. Grip is about shoulder width apart just now.....may try a wee bit wider as did a set this way last week to mix it up & got a rather nice pump.  Cheers for explaining that.......


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## bigacb (Nov 13, 2007)

fifibobo said:


> Cheers bigacb, appreciate comments. Do try to mix things up a bit. Have moved legs to Wed rather than Fri, so upper body is Mon & Fri - it was Hackskii who recommended this & does make more sense.
> 
> Just feel I can train more & want to do more as recovery times are very quick just now, but realise have to keep it strict. Grrrrrrrr.........:mad:


I know it hard not to train on your days off. Ive changed my training around and it seems to be working.

Mon: Chest, lats and bi's

Tues: Shoulders, traps and tri's

Weds: Quads, hamstrings and calfs

Thurs: Chest, lats and bi's

Fri: Shoulders, traps and tri's

Sat: Off

Sun: Off

6 sets on each muscle per day

If its working for you then why change it. Id stick to it. Did you takes measurements of arms chest etc before you started your course? This is a much better way to determine gains. If not start now. Theres no better fweeling than when you realise your arms have gained half an inch! Good luck your gains are good so keep it up!


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## 7i7 (Sep 22, 2007)

fifibobo said:


> Ok, feel I've not been getting gains I should. Grip is about shoulder width apart just now.....may try a wee bit wider as did a set this way last week to mix it up & got a rather nice pump.  Cheers for explaining that.......


Thats too narrow grip there mate, iirc with bar touching lower chest your wrists should be directly over your elbows. For me its middle fingers on rings.


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## fifibobo (Oct 29, 2007)

Thanks for that, was going to widen grip after comments; this has reinforced that view.


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## fifibobo (Oct 29, 2007)

bigacb said:


> I know it hard not to train on your days off. Ive changed my training around and it seems to be working.
> 
> Mon: Chest, lats and bi's
> 
> ...


I know - if it's not broken, don't fix it. Doesn't stop you wondering though. Will get measuring tonight.............


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## bigacb (Nov 13, 2007)

fifibobo said:


> I know - if it's not broken, don't fix it. Doesn't stop you wondering though. Will get measuring tonight.............


I know the what if syndrome...what if i trainede more would i be bigger. Usually i would say no but you can try it on your next course but id stick with how your training at the mo. Everyones different.


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## fifibobo (Oct 29, 2007)

Ok chaps. Took measurements, below:

bicep - 15.5"

quad - 24"

chest - 47"

neck - 17"

All taken before training. Have added latest pics below.

Traing plan is now:

*Mondays:*

*Chest *

Benchpress (Flat)

Benchpress (Incline)

Bench Flys (Dumbells)

*
Biceps*

Deated dumbell curls

Hammer curls

*
Triceps*

Tricep dips

French curls

Kickbacks

*Wednesdays:*

*
Legs*

*
*Squats

Hack Squats

Leg curls

*Calfs*

*
*Calf Raises

*Fridays:*

*
Back*

*
*Deadlifts

Bent Over rowing

Shrugs

*Shoulders*

*
*Seated shoulder press

Barbell Pull ups

Lateral raises

*Forearms*

*
*Reverse curls

Training been tweaked a bit, and did 3 sets of 12 reps at 90kg last night - good form, so well chuffed!


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## 7i7 (Sep 22, 2007)

Give this a shot instead of kickbacks (done as a finisher). I'd also do straight barbell curls stead dbells.


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## fifibobo (Oct 29, 2007)

7i7 said:


> Give this a shot instead of kickbacks (done as a finisher). I'd also do straight barbell curls stead dbells.


Cheers 7i7, will give this a go next week. Used to do barbell curls, but changed to dumbell curls as responded better to these. Are barbell curls generally better for gaining mass?


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## 7i7 (Sep 22, 2007)

Yup, they take out brachialis and forearm out of the movement better, also cheat curls are easier than balancing with bells


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## Lux (Mar 23, 2006)

fifibobo said:


> Cheers 7i7, will give this a go next week. Used to do barbell curls, but changed to dumbell curls as responded better to these. Are barbell curls generally better for gaining mass?


Try doing a google search on body drag curls, very effective mate


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Lux said:


> Try doing a google search on body drag curls, very effective mate


I do these and they work damn well, but you have to go slow and use lighter weights.

Vince Gironda special's.

There is a link on here some where.

Although her form is crap, if done right it kind of hugs the body from bottom to under the neck.

http://www.natural-body-building-tips.com/video/girondacurl/gironda_body_drag_curl.html


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## fifibobo (Oct 29, 2007)

Cheers for that Lux & Hackskii. Checked video & you were right Hacks, she doesn't have good form. Did as Lux suggested & have read a few articles & between this all have a good idea how this should be done, so will give this a go on Monday. 

Still gettin' bad back pumps tho'........


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## Guest (Nov 21, 2007)

what are the back pumps? hopefully i wont get bad ones as i have enough troubles already


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## fifibobo (Oct 29, 2007)

dom1986 said:


> what are the back pumps? hopefully i wont get bad ones as i have enough troubles already


http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/steroid-testosterone-information/25867-back-pain-d-bol.html


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## Lux (Mar 23, 2006)

I'm not 100% sure but hasn't Cookie given advice on alleviating back pumps in the past?


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## fifibobo (Oct 29, 2007)

Lux said:


> I'm not 100% sure but hasn't Cookie given advice on alleviating back pumps in the past?


Most probably has, but not seen this. If you find, can you post link? Will have a look as these are f***in' killing me today.


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## fifibobo (Oct 29, 2007)

Found this post from Megatron referring to one smart cookie's advice:

Originally Posted by *megatron* 

"I pull my back alot from power kiting and weightlifting, I find that a nice hot bath after each workout really helps to relax the muscles.

It is very hard to stretch the back too, OSC gave me a great tip whereby you hang from a chin bar, tense your muscles until they are all tense, then relax and allow your back to stretch out. Works really well I must say. My back is not hurting this week despite kiting all weekend."

May give this a go. Have some beams in the garage I can use for this which will do nicely.........


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## Lux (Mar 23, 2006)

I've been mooching around the tinternet mate and i'm seeing that a mix of taurine, magnesium and potassium could be a way to alleviate the pumps. Just struggling to get doses and better advice.

I reckon once Cookie gets back from work he might be able to help


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## megatron (Apr 21, 2004)

Since I made that post my physiotherapist showed me the real daddy of back stretches.

You lie on your side (on a mat - not hard floor), for the sake or argument we will say that you are lieing on your right hand side (left hand side facing up).

You take your left leg and bring it up so that your foot is braced on the knee of your right leg.

Grip your pants/trousers with your hands and use your arms to twist your hips in the same direction as your left leg wants to fall with gravity (clockwise in this example).

The real trick is to twist the hips with keeping your lower back muscles relaxed... When you get it right you can "crack" all the lower vertibrea in your spine and also give your lower back a damn good stretch. I do it both sides at the end of every stretching session and it really gives you that "AHHH OH MY GOD" feeling, perfect if you ever feel tight in the lower back. It's by far my favourite stretch and since Ii have been doing it I have no more back complaints - EVER.

I will try and get a video up.


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## fifibobo (Oct 29, 2007)

megatron said:


> I will try and get a video up.


I'm not interested what you get up to in your S&M dungeon with your rack Megatron! 

Cheers for that bud - will give it a go tonight.


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## fifibobo (Oct 29, 2007)

Just out of interest, here's a pic of me taken just over a year ago @ 13 stone - (only one I have really as hated how skinny I was). Can't see any of body, but you definitely get the gist......Now sitting at just over 16 stone.


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## MXMAD (Oct 11, 2007)

How far you into cycle now mate?


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## Greyphantom (Oct 23, 2003)

fifibobo said:


> Just out of interest, here's a pic of me taken just over a year ago @ 13 stone - (only one I have really as hated how skinny I was). Can't see any of body, but you definitely get the gist......Now sitting at just over 16 stone.


But still ugly hey....  nah j/k mate... you knows we loves ya...


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## fifibobo (Oct 29, 2007)

Greyphantom said:


> But still ugly hey....  nah j/k mate... you knows we loves ya...


Cheeky git!


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## fifibobo (Oct 29, 2007)

MXMAD said:


> How far you into cycle now mate?


started on the 29th Oct, so 4 weeks bud.


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## fifibobo (Oct 29, 2007)

Weight for this week below. Note 1st week weight was taken at very start of course.

Wk1:210lbs

Wk2:216lbs

Wk3:222.5lbs

Wk4:228.5lbs

Wk5:232lbs

Gains down this week for 1st time to 3.5lbs.

Milk Thistle stopped last week & still no signs of gyno.


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## Greyphantom (Oct 23, 2003)

nice gains, when you stop the bol, make sure you still train hard and keep the diet going through pct, also keep the water intake up a little... I found that doing this helped me to keep a greater portion of the gains...


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## fifibobo (Oct 29, 2007)

Greyphantom said:


> nice gains, when you stop the bol, make sure you still train hard and keep the diet going through pct, also keep the water intake up a little... I found that doing this helped me to keep a greater portion of the gains...


Cheers Phantom - fully intend to train & eat like a mofo. Realise that the majority of these gains are going to be water retention, but can still see muscle growth. Have attached new pics below. Am happy with my back, but am starting to hit pecs now as not happy with gains on these. Threw in some military push-ups at end of chest (3sets 10 reps) very slow & exaggerated movements. Got cracking pump, so we'll see.


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## MXMAD (Oct 11, 2007)

Thats good improvement for a year mate, keep at it 

How you getting on with your cycle?

Have you had any blood tests throughout your cycle?


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## fifibobo (Oct 29, 2007)

MXMAD said:


> Thats good improvement for a year mate, keep at it
> 
> How you getting on with your cycle?
> 
> Have you had any blood tests throughout your cycle?


Thanks for that MXMAD - apreciate comment. Getting on fine with cycle. Sides have been back pumps, temper in mornings (although this has got better since spreading dosage even more), and some headaches on some days. I do seem to hold a lot of water (this is what I'm putting most of weight down to), but I do not seem to have went 'puffy' or 'bloated'. Stopped taking milk thistle & have kept water intake high.

Libido seems to have taken a slight hit, and getting slight depression. This is my last week, so will be straight onto PCT and just train & eat like a mofo.

Have not had blood tests - very small town & looks like mail order test is gonna be my only option.

Will give updated stats tomorrow as forgot to weigh myself. Doh!


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## MXMAD (Oct 11, 2007)

Ok will be looking forward to before and after pics


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## megatron (Apr 21, 2004)

Headaches? Keep an eye on BP... Mine is currently 158  Looks like this will be my last venture into the world of steroids - don't realy want to die heh.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

megatron said:


> Headaches? Keep an eye on BP... Mine is currently 158  Looks like this will be my last venture into the world of steroids - don't realy want to die heh.


Had the very same problem my last cycle, but mine was closer to 180


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## megatron (Apr 21, 2004)

hackskii said:


> Had the very same problem my last cycle, but mine was closer to 180


I'm sure when I was on 1-AD I must have gotten near that mark... The artieries in my thighs are still not the same and hurt when it's cold etc. I wish it didn't happen so bad, im at 160 on just 200mg of test-e per week. Gonna cycle down with some var for a couple of weeks then call it a day I think. Blood pressure is not something that should be toyed with - I just wish I had known last time cus i'm sure there is lasting damage (I was bedridden for 2 weeks, couldnt walk).

Oh well, got tomorrow off work - not all doom and gloom


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

megatron said:


> I'm sure when I was on 1-AD I must have gotten near that mark... The artieries in my thighs are still not the same and hurt when it's cold etc. I wish it didn't happen so bad, im at 160 on just 200mg of test-e per week. Gonna cycle down with some var for a couple of weeks then call it a day I think. Blood pressure is not something that should be toyed with - I just wish I had known last time cus i'm sure there is lasting damage (I was bedridden for 2 weeks, couldnt walk).
> 
> Oh well, got tomorrow off work - not all doom and gloom


Take some L-Argenine mate, that will help with some vasodialation(sp), which will lower blood pressure and also help circulation.

I also noticed before that cayenne lowered my BP too, and is known for increasing circulation.

Give that a whack.


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## megatron (Apr 21, 2004)

Thanks Scott, can't rep you again but I would.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Its cool mate.

I need to cap some more of that cayenne, I need to get back on that stuff.


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## Rono26 (Aug 21, 2007)

Fifibo - Hows the PCT going, what have you gone with in the end?

Interested to see how is goes, im about 2 weeks beind you on same cycle.


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## fifibobo (Oct 29, 2007)

Rono26 said:


> Fifibo - Hows the PCT going, what have you gone with in the end?


Hi Rono, apologies for not posting before, but work commitments screwed last week up.

Am just taking Chlomid & Nolva for PCT, and not really suffering from anything just now. Touch wood. All sides from d-bol are disappearing & feeling a lot better. Getting some Trib today, but don't really feel I need it.

Have attached 2 of 1st pics taken with 2 of latest ones taken.

Weight went:

Wk1:210lbs

Wk2:216lbs

Wk3:222.5lbs

Wk4:228.5lbs

Wk5:232lbs

Wk6:235lbs

25lbs weight gain during course.


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## Rono26 (Aug 21, 2007)

What doses are you going for on the Chlomid & Nolva?

Ive added 16lbs with 1 week to go... however added 1 1/2" to my arms which im well pleased about!

Be interested to see how you go over the next few weeks keeping it...


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## Guest (Dec 12, 2007)

hmmm im gona reattempt my tbol cycle soon hopefully it all goes good and i can get these gains. if not im just gona bite the bullet and try a test e next summer


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## fifibobo (Oct 29, 2007)

Rono26 said:


> What doses are you going for on the Chlomid & Nolva?
> 
> Ive added 16lbs with 1 week to go... however added 1 1/2" to my arms which im well pleased about!
> 
> Be interested to see how you go over the next few weeks keeping it...


Am doing 50mg chlomid each day until next week when I'm halving it, and taking 20mg Nolva each day. TBH, am having no issues with gyno or shutdown so far. Taking tribulus & everything seems to be 'rising' to the occasion as it were. 

Weighed myself & am at 225lbs, measurements are:

bicep - 15.5"

quad - 24"

chest - 48"

neck - 17"

Feeling ok training just now, as hard as ever. Not getting 'that bit extra', but poundages have not decreased & still doing same number of sets/reps.

Is it normal for not feeling crappy at this time due to shutdown as do not seem to have suffered as some people do.....so far anyways.:cool:

......have just got my next course ready & sitting. 40mg dbol wk1-4 & 500mg Organon Sus e/w wk 1 - 10. Looking at what to take to reduce sides during course just now, so any suggestions appreciated. BTW will be strict & not start next course for at least another 5 weeks.........but I do feel fine!


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

It is common to feel a bit under the weather during PCT, many times I get sick at this time, sometimes guys dont fair well with clomid and it can make you a bit girly.

Dont know why but maybe it being a mild estrogen itself....lol


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## paulo (Feb 17, 2007)

if on sustananon 250 what should be ran alongside?-2 young guys at gym doing this for 8 weeks and nothing else-also what should they btake pct-ive told them to join site by the way


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Sure you can run sust on its own, or with other substances, winstrol would be a good selection with sust, but you could run just about anything, with the exception of another test as testosterone is testosterone, but even that swapping for shorter esters twards the end to let the longer ones clear is a great idea.

PCT would be clomid and nolva and HCG during the cycle to keep and maintain testicular function.


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## Greyphantom (Oct 23, 2003)

Fifi... good results mate... looking good in the latest pics too.. well done and good luck with the pct and after... just keep focused, train well, eat well and rest well...


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## NeilpWest (Aug 19, 2007)

hi Fifi how much of your gains have you kept hold of after your pct?


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## fifibobo (Oct 29, 2007)

Cheers lads. Everything seems to be going sweet. Am sitting at 103kg, weight dropped slightly before I went on 2 weeks hols, so this gave me a chance to eat & train like a mofo. Lost a lot of weight to start with due to water that was held due to retention, but just kept slogging away & am seeing some good gains on my chest & shoulders area. Have added military push ups to each days training & pecs/delts/traps have all got bigger - god I love those push ups, I really do!

Know it's off topic, but also added a 'smoothie' to my diet to replace some shakes I was having. Consists of 2 scoops of MP 90% whey isloate, 100g MP powdered oats, 3 egg whites, 1 small pot of activia yoghurt, 1 banana, topped up with a bit of milk & blitzed. Tastes great & seems to be doing the trick.

Was about to start next cycle soon, but don't see point as seem to be gaining again after mixing things up a bit.

Do have a question though. If you look at my training schedule, it's split between 3 days. Feel I can do more as read about lads training 5 nights a week. Love my training but don't want to train for sake of it & it be detrimental to my gains ie overtraining. Was guilty of this previously, but getting twitchy again. Oh & a belated happy new year to you all & hope you all had a cracking festive period!


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## Guest (Jan 10, 2008)

lol i train 5-6 times a week and have yet to overtrain. i think overtraining is overrated imho. i know people who train everyday (me myself some weeks) and just split everything up, give atleast 3 days in between doing a muscle group seems good enough for me. also training so much lets me eat **** loads


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## fifibobo (Oct 29, 2007)

dom1986 said:


> lol i train 5-6 times a week and have yet to overtrain. i think overtraining is overrated imho. i know people who train everyday (me myself some weeks) and just split everything up, give atleast 3 days in between doing a muscle group seems good enough for me. also training so much lets me eat **** loads


Can you post your routine or groups you work each day? Will probably up the training but want to modify existing routine first.


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## Guest (Jan 10, 2008)

well i always mix it up.

example of my week just now

saturday:

chest and minor tris

sunday:

legs

monday:

back traps

tuesday:

bis and cardio

wednesday:

shoulders and minor chest

thursday (today):

either take today off or ill do legs again

i rarely take days off, dont really feel i need to. also i get alot of rest as i dont work just go uni


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## Guest (Jan 10, 2008)

this is different every week though depending on what i feel like doing and how things go about


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## fifibobo (Oct 29, 2007)

dom1986 said:


> well i always mix it up.
> 
> example of my week just now
> 
> ...


Cheers for that dom, appreciated. What do you do for back?


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## Guest (Jan 10, 2008)

as i said it changes every week and depends if im training alone or with someone.

this week i did

chin ups warm up

pull downs front

t-bar row in corner going heavy 5 or 6 plates then drop set

1 arm dumbell rows

then did low rows leaning forward followed by the ones where you lay down slightly and pull with the lats and get someone to hold onto your belt (1st time i tried these)

then some hypers with weight for lower back

then shrugs for traps in front as i will also do a minor traps on shoulder day

i usually have a major group which i hit and a minor.

for exampl ill hit chest twice a week, 1 day it will be done first as a major bodypart then another day ill hit it lighter as a minor bodypart


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## fifibobo (Oct 29, 2007)

cheers dom, going to look at my routine & modify. Could I do my normal routine, but six days per week rather than the 3? Happy with gains just now, but feel they could be better with more training. Do you recommend any sites with different excercises? - video preferably so I can get form correct for anything i'm unfamiliar with.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Over training is a reality, not so much for muscle but with intensity it is the central nervous system that takes the hit and takes more than just a few days to recouperate.


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## Guest (Jan 10, 2008)

i dont think ive run into overtraining though. i know it is to do with the CNS, but ive never reeally felt really shut down. prob because i get 9-10 hours sleep usually and eat **** loads all day and sit on my ****


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## fifibobo (Oct 29, 2007)

Just out of interest, took a quick snap of where I'm at now for comparison.


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## NeilpWest (Aug 19, 2007)

hi fifi what was you lbm gains after your cycle after all the water came off. looking good in your pic good progress


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## fifibobo (Oct 29, 2007)

NeilpWest said:


> hi fifi what was you lbm gains after your cycle after all the water came off. looking good in your pic good progress


Sorry Neil, have never bothered working it out. Seem to remember there was a .xls doc someone made up with correct formulas.......


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Hope you dont mind, I had to re-size that so guys on dialup wont time out


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## fifibobo (Oct 29, 2007)

hackskii said:


> Hope you dont mind, I had to re-size that so guys on dialup wont time out


Not a problem - using Ubuntu/GIMP & not used to editing in this app, Posted & saw size - sorry, my bad.

Dial up!!? Wasn't that superseded by carrier pigeon? mg:

.........28.8k modem - them were the days!


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

fifibobo said:


> .........28.8k modem - them were the days!


My first modem in 1994 was a 14.400 and it usually logged in at a whopping 9600, back then getting my porn collection was pretty slow, storing them on floppies was even slower.....lol


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## fifibobo (Oct 29, 2007)

hackskii said:


> My first modem in 1994 was a 14.400 and it usually logged in at a whopping 9600, back then getting my porn collection was pretty slow, storing them on floppies was even slower.....lol


Wow! Porn on a floppy! One up from stone tablets I s'pose!


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

I remember being on dial up also, the porn took so long to download, by the time it had finished i ended up with a floppy lol

***Bad joke***


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## fifibobo (Oct 29, 2007)

cwoody123 said:


> I remember being on dial up also, the porn took so long to download, by the time it had finished i ended up with a floppy lol
> 
> ***Bad joke***


Bet you sat for ages thinking of that response ....!


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

I have a floppy that turns into a hard drive


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

hackskii said:


> I have a floppy that turns into a hard drive


I know i have still got the web cam evidence to prove it!


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## fifibobo (Oct 29, 2007)

I have a floppy that turns into a hard drive

*Is that what happens as you near 50? *  * PMSL!*

I know i have still got the web cam evidence to prove it! 

*Know all about your videos cwoody! *


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