# PEDs for Endurance Athletes



## awaytospain (Apr 19, 2013)

Hi all.

Been lurking for a while. Seems like the right place (that, and you get instantly banned for asking stuff like this on running forums).

Ultra-runner after some serious performance.

First off, let me rule a couple of things out:

-EPO + blood doping (I do not have access to medical expertise in order to do this safely)

-Anything that remotely causes cramp or unusually harsh pumps (obviously really, but it kills an ultra-endurance performance)

-Anything that is bad for joints (again, obvious really)

-Anything that requires daily or even EOD injections (too hard to conceal this with my job and running activities)

That out of the way..

I am looking for information on PEDs (AAS, SARMs, etc) for a purely endurance trained athlete. I am not looking for muscle/size/weight gain, though the drug causing this is not too much of a problem as largely, this effect can be moderated through diet.

I would prefer to use an oral drug for convenience and concealment, but am not adverse to injecting if I have to.

Currently I am thinking about 125mg test enan every 4-7 days. I read (mostly old posts) about EQ and Deca being decent for endurance, but some more recent thinking leads me to understand their effect should/is no different to any other anabolic.

I have read so much conflicting stuff recently, that I'd really like (hope hope hope) to get some info from an endurance athlete who actually uses, if possible.

Look forward to your thoughts (or the experience of your friends if you know someone who uses and is an endurance athlete).

Thanks.


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## Davo (Sep 11, 2007)

I wouldn't be using test, deca or eq if I was an ultra runner! Surely you want to be carrying as little weight as possible, rather than putting on muscle?

Aside from the ones you have already ruled out like EPO, I would only really imagine stimulants like ephedrine might be of some use.


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## awaytospain (Apr 19, 2013)

Thanks for your response. However, as I have said above, would it not be very easy to control weight gain using diet?


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## engllishboy (Nov 1, 2007)

Davo said:


> I wouldn't be using test, deca or eq if I was an ultra runner! Surely you want to be carrying as little weight as possible, rather than putting on muscle?
> 
> Aside from the ones you have already ruled out like EPO, I would only really imagine stimulants like ephedrine might be of some use.


I'd say the opposite to be honest. EQ at a low dose will increase RBC nicely which will help with endurance. If also say stay away from stimulants. They'll put a massive strain on your heart for long distance running. What sort of distances do you run, out of curiosity?


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## kingdale (Nov 2, 2010)

When in the past I used ephedrine before a jog it made me feel short of breath and not good. But I dont think I get along with any stims pre training.


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## dentylad (Nov 19, 2011)

Long distance or sprint runner?

Equipose and npp have been used in endurance sports before as many athletes have been banned using these. Even Winstrol has been used by mma fighters and sprint runners in the past.

Sounds like your wanting someone to recommend you a piddly anavar cycle or something tbh. Unless your blood doping or running epo I wouldnt bother. Most aas hinders intense cardio especially for a runner, stimulants if used have to be timed correctly and even then you could do more damage than good. Jam on toast and a pint of water an hour before training...sorted!


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## dentylad (Nov 19, 2011)

If you want to be the best, train harder, think smarter.

Running a Lance Armstrong cycle will get you up there with the big boys but like anything else, unless you constantly going to jab yourself with it or are competing as a pro i would stick to good old hard work my mate.


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## thomas12345 (Aug 11, 2009)

Low test 200mg ish per week poss eq at a low dose.

more important look to improve recover etc hgh, metaformin, insulin

Worth a read....

Conte's prescription for success

Balco kingpin Conte believes it sometimes takes a thief to catch a thief

When Dwain Chambers met the British anti-doping authorities in London on Friday, he brought more with him than a contrite expression and promises to help the good fight.

The controversial sprinter also handed over a stunning account of what he was taking when he failed his drugs test in 2003, how much he was taking of each substance and when exactly he was taking them.

This has shocked me at how easy it is for the athletes and how far behind the drug testers are

The account was written for him by his former Balco supplier, Victor Conte, who served a four-month prison sentence for conspiracy to distribute steroids and money laundering.

It contains information that could prove crucial in the fight against drugs cheats.

CONTE'S LETTER

Dear Dwain,

Per your request, this letter is to confirm I am willing to assist you in providing UK Sport and others with information that will help them to improve the effectiveness of their anti-doping programs.

The specific details regarding how you were able to circumvent the British and IAAF anti-doping tests for an extended period of time are provided below.

Your performance enhancing drug program included the following seven prohibited substances: THG, testosterone/epitestosterone cream, EPO (Procrit), HGH (Serostim), insulin (Humalog), modafinil (Provigil) and liothryonine, which is a synthetic form of the T3 thyroid hormone (Cytomel).

THG is a previously undetectable designer steroid nicknamed "the clear." It was primarily used in the off season and was taken two days per week, typically on Mondays and Wednesdays. Generally, these were the two most intense weight-training days of the week. The purpose was to accelerate healing and tissue repair. Thirty units (IU) of the liquid was place under the tongue during the morning time-frame. THG was used in cycles of "three weeks on and one week off."

Testosterone/epitestosterone cream was also primarily used during the off season. It was rubbed into the skin on the front of the forearm two days per week, typically Tuesdays and Thursdays. The dosage was ½ gram which contained 50mg of testosterone and 2.5mg of epitestosterone (20 to 1 ratio). The purpose was to offset the suppression of endogenous testosterone caused by the use of the THG and to accelerate recovery. The testosterone/epitestosterone cream was also used in cycles of three weeks on and one week off.

EPO was used three days per week during the "corrective phase", which is the first two weeks of a cycle. Typically, it was on Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays. It was only used once per week during the "maintenance phase" thereafter, typically this was every Wednesday. The dosage was 4,000 IU per injection. The purpose was to increase the red blood cell count and enhance oxygen uptake and utilization. This substance provides a big advantage to sprinters because it enables them to do more track repetitions and obtain a much deeper training load during the off season. EPO becomes undetectable about 72 hours after subcutaneous injection (stomach) and only 24 hours after intravenous injection.

HGH was used three nights per week, typically on Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays. Each injection would contain 4.5 units of growth hormone. Once again, this substance was used primarily during the off season to help with recovery from very strenuous weight training sessions.

Insulin was used after strenuous weight training sessions during the off season. Three units of Humalog (fast-acting insulin) were injected immediately after the workout sessions together with a powdered drink that contained 30 grams of dextrose, 30 grams of whey protein isolates and 3 grams of creatine. The purpose was to quickly replenish glycogen, resynthesize ATP and promote protein synthesis and muscle growth. Insulin acts as a "shuttle system" in the transport of glucose and branch chain amino acids. There is no test available for insulin at this time.

Modafinil was used as a "wakefulness promoting" agent before competitions. The purpose was to decrease fatigue and enhance mental alertness and reaction time. A 200mg tablet was consumed one hour before competition.

Liothryonine was used help accelerate the basic metabolic rate before competitions. The purpose was to reduce sluggishness and increase quickness. Two 25mg tablets were taken one hour before competition. There is no test available for liothryonine at this time.

In general terms, explosive strength athletes, such as sprinters, use anabolic steroids, growth hormone, insulin and EPO during the off season. They use these drugs in conjunction with an intense weight training program, which helps to develop a strength base that will serve them throughout the competitive season. Speed work is done just prior to the start of the competitive season.

It is important to understand it is not really necessary for athletes to have access to designer anabolic steroids such as THG. They can simply use fast-acting testosterone (oral as well as creams and gels) and still easily avoid the testers. For example, oral testosterone will clear the system in less than a week and testosterone creams and gels will clear even faster.

Many drug-tested athletes use what I call the "duck and dodge" technique. Several journalists in the UK have recently referred to it as the "duck and dive" technique. This is basically how it works.

First, the athlete repeatedly calls their own cell phone until the message capacity is full. This way the athlete can claim to the testers that they didn't get a message when they finally decide to make themselves available. Secondly, they provide incorrect information on their whereabouts form. They say they are going to one place and then go to another. Thereafter, they start using testosterone, growth hormone and other drugs for a short cycle of two to three weeks.

After the athlete discontinues using the drugs for a few days and they know that they will test clean, they become available and resume training at their regular facility.

Most athletes are tested approximately two times each year on a random out-of -competition basis. If a tester shows up and the athlete is not where they are supposed to be, then the athlete will receive a "missed test". This is the equivalent to receiving "strike one" when up to bat in a baseball game. The current anti-doping rules allow an athlete to have two missed tests in any given eighteen-month period without a penalty or consequence. So, the disadvantage for an athlete having a missed test is that they have one strike against them. The advantage of that missed test is the athlete has now received the benefit of a cycle of steroids. Long story short, an athlete can continue to duck and dive until they have two missed tests, which basically means that they can continue to use drugs until that time.

In summary, it's my opinion that more than fifty percent of the drug tests performed each year should be during the off season or the fourth quarter. This is when the track athletes are duckin' and divin' and using anabolic steroids and other drugs. Let me provide some rather startling information for your consideration. If you check the testing statistics on the USADA website, you will find that the number of out-of-competition drug tests performed during each quarter of 2007 are as follows: in the first quarter there were 1208, second quarter 1295, third quarter 1141 and in the fourth quarter there were only 642.

In late 2003 I advised USADA about the importance of random testing during the fourth quarter of the year. They did initially seem to follow my advice because they increased the number of fourth-quarter tests in 2004, 2005 and 2006.

However, they failed to continue this practice in 2007. Why would USADA decide to perform only 15% of their annual out-of-competition tests during the fourth quarter? Let's not forget that this is the off season before the upcoming summer Olympic Games. This is equivalent to a fisherman knowing that the fish are ready to bite and then consciously deciding that it is time to reel in his line and hook, lean his fishing pole up against a tree and take a nap.

On several occasions, I have provided detailed information to both USADA and WADA in an attempt to help them establish more effective testing policies and procedures.

I certainly have more information that I would like the opportunity to provide to you and UK Sport, but I will leave that for another time.

Hopefully, this information will be helpful and I am available to assist you further upon request.

Yours sincerely,

Victor Conte


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## gb666 (Mar 14, 2006)

Possibly low dose Oxymetholone in an attempt to raise hemoglobin levels.


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## Davo (Sep 11, 2007)

The best for increasing hb levels for endurance athletes is going to be EPO / blood doping.

I wouldn't of thought as an ultra runner (50 odd milers?) would benefit from any of those and wouldn't take the risk of putting on a couple of lbs of muscle / water retention (even with ancillaries) when running those sorts of distances keeping your weight right down makes a massive difference?

Certainly wouldn't be taking oxy's tho lol


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## ellisrimmer (Sep 9, 2012)

Drug use is part of bodybuilding, so it goes... it's not ok to do it in running... cheat


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## kingdale (Nov 2, 2010)

ellisrimmer said:


> Drug use is part of bodybuilding, so it goes... it's not ok to do it in running... cheat


who cares. Im sure it goes on in all sports.


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## ellisrimmer (Sep 9, 2012)

kingdale said:


> who cares. Im sure it goes on in all sports.


Most people care. There is a big thing about it at the moment...you get banned, fined and can even serve jail terms


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## kingdale (Nov 2, 2010)

ellisrimmer said:


> Most people care. There is a big thing about it at the moment...you get banned, fined and can even serve jail terms


only if you are a pro athlete, average joe nothing is going to happen to you. Barely any sports even test at amateur


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## ellisrimmer (Sep 9, 2012)

kingdale said:


> only if you are a pro athlete, average joe nothing is going to happen to you. Barely any sports even test at amateur


Well that goes without saying but I don't think it's right.


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## Zorrin (Sep 24, 2010)

gb666 said:


> Possibly low dose Oxymetholone in an attempt to raise hemoglobin levels.


i was going to suggest this. Its a shame that oxys are traditionally in a stupidly large 50mg size.

Most steroids increase red blood count, but EPO, anadrol and boldenone are good for this. But like you say, pumps are bad for distance running.

I used the classic East German doping agent turinabol, and had to give up after 50 yards because my legs were rock hard and pumped. its better for discus throwers, I think!


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## Joshua (Aug 21, 2008)

awaytospain said:


> Hi all.
> 
> Been lurking for a while. Seems like the right place (that, and you get instantly banned for asking stuff like this on running forums).
> 
> ...


Way too little information before anyone could give you serious advice IMO.

Do you compete? What are the lengths of your seasons?

What is your training program / intensity, periodisation cycles, both on and off season?

Some androgens may have uses at certain points in some points in the training cycle, but can be counterproductive in others.

I would avoid oxymeth contrary to what others have said due to adverse effects on O2 transfer.

The protocols in the post wrt Dwain chambers is designed for short distance, sprint work and is essentially optimised for a different sport. Just because both endurance running and sprint work involve moving one's legs forward and backward repeatedly does not make them the same sport, in the same way that football and golf use balls, yet they are not the same sport either.

PED protocols for MMA are not applicable either, due to different primary metabolic systems engaged.

J


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## awaytospain (Apr 19, 2013)

Joshua said:


> Way too little information before anyone could give you serious advice IMO.
> 
> Do you compete? What are the lengths of your seasons?
> 
> ...


Hi Joshua,

I appreciate your time in responding.

Yes, I compete. I am unconcerned with testing for now - so please do not let that prejudice your response.

Season is year round, realistically, though I have some time between now and the more serious part of the season which starts in Aug/Sept.

I train 2 days a week for strength, and do CV 4-7 days a week. With every respect to weight lifting athletes, I am not talking about a 400m sprint or a little jog akin to what BBers do to keep BF fat down. To give you an idea... events range from 10km (<40mins) to ultra-marathons (>40miles), often over mountains.

Training is block periodised, though that is quite recent.

What are your views on AAS (and or SARMS, specifically Ostarine), given the above info?

Thanks.


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## madrone (Dec 20, 2011)

surprised nobody has mentioned GH yet


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## jonesy94 (Apr 15, 2013)

If I was you I would try 50mg of var ed 6 weeks, worth a try, can't do any harm.....


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## Ginger Ben (Oct 5, 2010)

jonesy94 said:


> If I was you I would try 50mg of var ed 6 weeks, worth a try, can't do any harm.....


He doesn't want crippling pumps which even at 50mg for a long distance runner I imagine Var could easily give.

Isn't clen the ped of choice for endurance althletes. Armstrong for example? I know he got done for more but clen is huge in cycling I believe.


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## AndyTee (Dec 23, 2012)

Surley test at 350-500mg per week would make you want to run further and faster?

Be interested to hear peoples thoughts on ths.


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## jonesy94 (Apr 15, 2013)

He was on all sorts was sent he, hgh, test the works..


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## awaytospain (Apr 19, 2013)

I'd like to hear from one member in particular. Having spent a *****load* of time reading old posts using the search function - 1 person stands out as someone who has or had a decent level of CV fitness and has used SARMS amongst other things.... but I can't PM anyone 

How long do I have to be a member for before I am allowed to PM someone?


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## awaytospain (Apr 19, 2013)

I'd like to hear from one member in particular. Having spent a *****load* of time reading old posts using the search function - 1 person stands out as someone who has or had a decent level of CV fitness and has used SARMS amongst other things.... but I can't PM anyone 

How long do I have to be a member for before I am allowed to PM someone?


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## theBEAST2002 (Oct 16, 2011)

engllishboy said:


> I'd say the opposite to be honest. EQ at a low dose will increase RBC nicely which will help with endurance. If also say stay away from stimulants. They'll put a massive strain on your heart for long distance running. What sort of distances do you run, out of curiosity?


yup, EQ is the next best thing to increase RBC after EPO. it is also the next best thing for increasing collegen sysnthesis after growth hormone. stick to low doses, not going any higher then 400mg ed. you shouldn't put a lot of weight on unless you do any form of resistance training. hcg throughout with adex and DAA for pct. if you want a stimulant for the run the a low dose of ephedrine is for you...a low dose of winny would be beneficial too.

so something like this...

eq @400mg pw 1-20

test e @125mg pw 1-20

winny @20mg 4 weeks on 4 weeks off

hcg @250 e5d 1-24

adex @0.5mg ed 23-27

don't listen to anyone that tells you to use 500mg of test, thats a bodybuilders first cycle.


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## Ginger Ben (Oct 5, 2010)

awaytospain said:


> I'd like to hear from one member in particular. Having spent a *****load* of time reading old posts using the search function - 1 person stands out as someone who has or had a decent level of CV fitness and has used SARMS amongst other things.... but I can't PM anyone
> 
> How long do I have to be a member for before I am allowed to PM someone?


30 days I think or you could just type "@the members username" and it will notify them to come to this thread.


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