# 4 sets but 8 or 10 reps?



## scruffy (Mar 1, 2005)

Just started back in the gym and for now i'm following the same plan as a mate of mine because we are training together!

A question though he seems to use almost 4 x 10 in nearly all of his exercises! But because i want to gain a lot more mass should i do 8 reps instead but with more weight?


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## Robbiedbee (Nov 27, 2013)

Depends on the muscle groups, isolation/compounds exercises etc. A lot of the introductory strength/mass workout plans like Starting Strength and Stronglifts have you on 5x5, for example, but that's on the massive compounds lifts like squats, overheard press and bench press. Deadlifts however, I'd cry if I had to do 10 reps on it. The two programs I mentioned have you doing 1x5 on those.

I think the danger with having a rep range in mind across all of a workout like your mate does, is that it's easy to get it into your mind that you're stopping at 10, whether you're tired or not. It's the last one or two reps before your limit which really make you grow.


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## oldskoolcool (Oct 4, 2009)

Time under tension is what builds size best.


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

I don't think the difference between sets of 8 reps and sets of 10 reps is significant, whether to failure or not.

For me I seem to have two rep ranges that work for slightly different goals -

3-6 reps per set - strength gain, usually only use his range for compound exercises. Struggle to train this way for long periods before plateauing/getting niggly injuries. Am not well built for heavy training.

8-15 reps per set - hypertrophy. This is the zone I grow best in and can be continually progressive for longest in before it slows down. Works best when I cycle volume as well as progressively increase loading by small amounts. Most muscles respond the same anywhere in that range, the exception being my legs which like the higher end, and are still happy going up to 20 rep sets.

Higher reps than this are good fun for conditioning workouts, but I don't grow so well any more. A few weeks training that way though and my cv fitness goes through the roof, so it can be beneficial to do the odd phase like that and then return to the 8-15 range... it all seems so much easier for a while.


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## ah24 (Jun 25, 2006)

Dtlv has summed it up perfectly. The difference between 8-10 reps is negligible.


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## romper stomper (Sep 26, 2012)

I use 8-10 reps anyway

start at a weight where you can just complete 8 reps keep on that till it becomes easy and then move to 10reps

When 10 becomes easy move the weight up and go back to 8 reps- so you try and constantly overload the muscle with higher weights which makes the muscle work more.


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## B.I.G (Jun 23, 2011)

For me it's also about time under tension.. If you do 10 reps like usian bolt then I don't think it's great for hypertrophy.


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## SK50 (Apr 7, 2013)

If you're just getting back to the gym then your "gains" are not going to be muscle mass (at least not at first), they are going to be from neuromuscular efficiency. i.e. your brain learning to control your motor neurons in the exercises. 8 or 10 reps makes no difference at this stage. Just choose one and stick to it to measure weekly progress.


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

SK50 said:


> If you're just getting back to the gym then your "gains" are not going to be muscle mass (at least not at first), they are going to be from neuromuscular efficiency. i.e. your brain learning to control your motor neurons in the exercises. 8 or 10 reps makes no difference at this stage. Just choose one and stick to it to measure weekly progress.


Very true. Muscle does fast when starting or restarting exercise, but the surge in strength that occurs when coming back after a long lay off is not about the muscle - is all about neuromuscular efficiency returning. I'm the king of exercise inconsistency, and in my experience it takes three weeks to a month for neural control and strength to get back to where it was. I also find the first fortnight a killer for DOMS and then that backs off a lot once my strength is up. It always amazes me how when I immediately come back from a lay off I am feeble and get so sore after doing pretty much nothing, yet three weeks later when I can use pretty much double the loading on many exercises for more volume and hardly be sore at all because of it. The body is an amazingly adaptive thing.


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

^^*Muscle does* recover* fast

Am having a continued error and i can't edit my posts.


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## scruffy (Mar 1, 2005)

Well i've been doing 10 reps each set see how i go and yes i'm aching but then this is only my 2nd week (4th visit)

I would go off and do my own thing but it's so much easier to start off with someone who knows what they are doing so i can get the correct form in different exercises and so on


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## Corby (Jun 18, 2008)

scruffy said:


> Well i've been doing 10 reps each set see how i go and yes i'm aching but then this is only my 2nd week (4th visit)
> 
> I would go off and do my own thing but it's so much easier to start off with someone who knows what they are doing so i can get the correct form in different exercises and so on


Not being funny, but does he know what he's doing?


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## scruffy (Mar 1, 2005)

because he's been going to the gym a lot longer than i have?


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## DiscSupps (Oct 26, 2012)

scruffy said:


> Just started back in the gym and for now i'm following the same plan as a mate of mine because we are training together!
> 
> A question though he seems to use almost 4 x 10 in nearly all of his exercises! But because i want to gain a lot more mass should i do 8 reps instead but with more weight?


Really does depend on what you are working and how your body responds. Sometimes it is good to not stick with repetitions and lift heavy but seriously overload that particular muscle through volume. Trial different methods, include drop sets, super sets etc and see how your body responds. Don't just stick with one approach. Scott


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## Ian_Montrose (Nov 13, 2007)

scruffy said:


> because he's been going to the gym a lot longer than i have?


My dad drove a car for 50 years yet he was a sh!t driver. Never assume someone knows what they're doing just because they have more experience than you.


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## 2004mark (Oct 26, 2013)

The downside of training with a partner when starting out is you'll end up competing with him (even on a sub conscious level)... completion is good, but not so much when learning.

Sure you'll be fine though. Just remember, you can do more with less weight if it's done properly. It's called training smart.


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## simonthepieman (Jun 11, 2012)

dtlv said:


> I don't think the difference between sets of 8 reps and sets of 10 reps is significant, whether to failure or not.
> 
> For me I seem to have two rep ranges that work for slightly different goals -
> 
> ...


what this guys says.

What ever you do, make sure you don't do 7 reps as it won't build strength or size. Nothing happens at all


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## scruffy (Mar 1, 2005)

Cheers for the advice guys 

yeah i won't be competing with him (not fully anyway lol), if i try do that i'll only end up injuring myself or something as he can do a lot more heavier weights than i can but it's good to have a bit of a target right?


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## uae_400 (Jan 31, 2014)

Try 10 reps 5 set it's working good for me..


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## simonthepieman (Jun 11, 2012)

your progression withing the parameters of the framework are far more important than the actual frame work it's self.

The returns from a set framework will diminish over time, so some variety will be required in grand scheme of things.

Put into simple terms.

Pick a rep and set scheme and keep pushing the weights up each week. When this slows or stops. Do a different one and repeat


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

simonthepieman said:


> your progression withing the parameters of the framework are far more important than the actual frame work it's self.
> 
> The returns from a set framework will diminish over time, so some variety will be required in grand scheme of things.
> 
> ...


Could not agree with this more... the above understanding is the foundation of continued progression.


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## scruffy (Mar 1, 2005)

Yeah thats what I've stuck to doing, in 7 weeks iv gone from benching 40kg to 62.5kg which i don't think is too bad


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## Deasy (May 5, 2014)

scruffy said:


> Yeah thats what I've stuck to doing, in 7 weeks iv gone from benching 40kg to 62.5kg which i don't think is too bad


Well done mate,add on a little every few weeks and it all adds up over a year,good progress..


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## nWo (Mar 25, 2014)

I personally prefer a broader range of 6-12 reps. I start out at 6 reps to failure, then the next time I do that exercise I try and do one more rep than last time. When I can do 12 reps with that weight, I increase the weight to drop back down to 6 reps. Rinse and repeat :thumb:


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## SwAn1 (Jun 4, 2012)

I just go to failure every set its pointless doing 3x8 IMO as the first two sets werent taxing


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## gearchange (Mar 19, 2010)

I said:


> I personally prefer a broader range of 6-12 reps. I start out at 6 reps to failure' date=' then the next time I do that exercise I try and do one more rep than last time. When I can do 12 reps with that weight, I increase the weight to drop back down to 6 reps. Rinse and repeat :thumb: [/quote']
> 
> I am the same,if I want to raise the weight abit or just add a few more reps ,I take that as I feel on the day..I do train with a partner and we do compete sometimes but generally we do whats best for both of us,that may not be the same each week.


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## nWo (Mar 25, 2014)

gearchange said:


> I am the same,if I want to raise the weight abit or just add a few more reps ,I take that as I feel on the day..I do train with a partner and we do compete sometimes but generally we do whats best for both of us,that may not be the same each week.


I do something similar actually, I could for example have done 7 reps on DB bench last workout, then next chest workout day my rotator cuff is niggling a bit... so I do some simple maths and decrease to a weight I'd have been able to get 11 reps with last time, then push for 12 with it this time. I sometimes increase the weight early when I notice that my 6 rep weight is something nice and rounded, like 50KG dead on for example.


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## The Sweeney (May 8, 2014)

Lots of good advice on this thread.

Learning from others mistakes can save you time and injury.

A mistake I made when I first started out 12 years ago (only just getting back into it after a long lay off) was to be too focused on increasing the weight EVERY time which in some cases means you get sloppy, use cheating motions, rush the movement or don't get full range of motion / contraction.

It takes a lot of discipline to keep strict form, work at a steady speed to avoid throwing the weights around and cheating with momentum.

For example, it's better to be doing 10kg dumbbell curls slowly, strictly and in a controlled fashion with full range of motion and a good fist clench for peak contraction at the top of the movement for EVERY rep to 10-12 reps, than to congratulate yourself for moving up to 12.5kg dumbbells too early and swinging them up whilst swaying your upper body for a sloppy 7-8 reps if you're just not ready to control that particular weight.

You'll grow more and grow faster doing it properly on the lighter weight than with sloppy, poor form on the heavier weight.

Took me a long time to realise that.

Also, whether you do 2, or as many as 5 work sets will also depend on how many other exercises you are doing for that particular muscle group. Lets say you're training your chest - if you were only doing bench pressing and some flys, then 4-5 sets to failure would be a good workout as long as you gave it your absolute all on the last rep of each and every set. However if your chest routine consists of decline bench, flat bench, incline bench, dips, fly's and some cable cross overs, you'll never be able to do 4 sets to failure on each and every set as you'll be utterly exhausted and the back end of your session will be sloppy, weak and poor at best, so in those circumstances, maybe 2 work sets with only a 30 second rest between sets for high intensity would yield better results across so many different exercises.

The method I'm using as I like to do several different exercises for major muscle groups is to do 3 work sets to 10 using a weight that when I start, I can just about do 10 strict and controlled reps on the first set. The second set usually fails at about 8-9 and the fianal set about 7-8 reps. I rest exactly a minute between sets for consistency to measure gains. Each week I try and get sets 2 and 3 up to 10 reps. As soon as I can get a 10th strict and controlled rep on the 3rd set, I then move the weight up the following week and the cycle starts again.

As others have said, everybody's body reacts differently. I find that my strength falls away very quickly so I have to keep my total working sets per gym visit to less than 20, otherwise I've got nothing left - assuming I'm giving it "gun to your head to do the last rep to save your life" kind of effort.


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## simonthepieman (Jun 11, 2012)

SwAn1 said:


> I just go to failure every set its pointless doing 3x8 IMO as the first two sets werent taxing


Well this is a fallacy.

Once you go to absolutely failure your future sets will be at a lower capacity due to CNS fatigue.

If you stop a rep before failure. Your overall work load and volume can be higher.

Failure is more than muscular exhaustion.

Don't you think you'd be bigger if you lifted heavier and move volume?

Edit: just to elaborate further. It applies to power lifting too. You'll find most experienced power lifters won't do a true 1rm more than once a month due to the benefits of training at 90% allows for greater capacity training sessions.

Think of it like this.

Think of someone running g 5 x100m with 2 mins rest. One person runs bloody fast but saves a little in the tank each time.

The other goes balls to wall every step. Who do you think has the lowest total run time?

Who do you think recovers best and can train more?

The balls out 'hare' sprinter may say he's faster, but the 'tortoise' sprinter is likely to improve his 100m completion time over a longer period of time and continue to push further ahead.

You may say lifting and sprinting after different, but the principles of the same. Training for consistent progression will typically out pace a one set max


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## SwAn1 (Jun 4, 2012)

simonthepieman said:


> Well this is a fallacy.
> 
> Once you go to absolutely failure your future sets will be at a lower capacity due to CNS fatigue.
> 
> ...


No mate. I tried the standard 3x8/4x8 and gained far far better doing doing say 10,8,5,4 once they all reach ten increase the weight etc Higher reps and and lower overall weight seemed better for hypotrophy for me too. Like they say more ways to skin a cat


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## simonthepieman (Jun 11, 2012)

SwAn1 said:


> No mate. I tried the standard 3x8/4x8 and gained far far better doing doing say 10,8,5,4 once they all reach ten increase the weight etc Higher reps and and lower overall weight seemed better for hypotrophy for me too. Like they say more ways to skin a cat


Not every one fits in the same mould agreed


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## naturalun (Mar 21, 2014)

I respond better in the 10-12 rep range, I always push to get 10 but try to get 12, which I often do.


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## biglbs (Jan 26, 2012)

dtlv said:


> ^^*Muscle does* recover* fast
> 
> Am having a continued error and i can't edit my posts.


That old chestnut your a MOD FFS:lol:


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## Deasy (May 5, 2014)

naturalun said:


> I respond better in the 10-12 rep range, I always push to get 10 but try to get 12, which I often do.


I respond better in the 8-10 range,that's the nub of these threads.

It's good to ask and get advice but alot of the time the only way you'll get the answers is listening to your own body and seeing how it best develops.

We're all different and what works for one doesn't work for the other,don't think their is a 'correct' answer to these types of threads..


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## naturalun (Mar 21, 2014)

Deasy said:


> I respond better in the 8-10 range,that's the nub of these threads.
> 
> It's good to ask and get advice but alot of the time the only way you'll get the answers is listening to your own body and seeing how it best develops.
> 
> We're all different and what works for one doesn't work for the other,don't think their is a 'correct' answer to these types of threads..


As above ^

Trial and error, I wish there was a magic answer then I wouldn't of wasted time in the gym doing things that's aren't so beneficial for me, oppose to taking months to figure that out when could of had months of gains.


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## NoGutsNoGloryy (Jan 7, 2013)

10-12 reps is which builds mass lower reps build strength.


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

biglbs said:


> That old chestnut your a MOD FFS:lol:


LOL, alas former mods = no thread editing capabilities. It sucks having no power, lol.


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## scruffy (Mar 1, 2005)

Awesome cheers guys

This is my current workout plan 3 days a week

Bench Press - 3x10

One Arm Dumbell row - 3 x 10

Shoulder Press - 3 x 10

Lat Pull Downs - 3 x 10

Shrugs - 3 x 10

Tricep Extension - 3 x 10

Bicep Curls - 3 x 10

Squats - 3 x 10

Leg Press - 3 x10

Standing Calf Raise - 3x10

Russian Twists - 4 x 10

Reverse Crunches - 4 x 10

Incline Bench - 3 x 10

Chin Ups - 3 x 10

Shoulder Press 3 x 10

Seated Row - 5 x 10

Rear Deltoids - 4 x 10

Laterals (dumbells) 4 x 1

Decided to just do 3x10 for now and I'm seeing how my progress goes and seem to be ok so far, i do think however that i may rush to add on weight every week instead of getting the perfect form so i'm gonna bring the weights down a bit on some exercises to get better form


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