# What is the best cycle for gaining muscle in 12 weeks?



## kangaroorampage

Hi,

I have been reading a lot of posts on this forum and reading steroid books, basically I don't know what to believe any more after reading ausbuilts posts with backed up with medical studies. So I was wondering what is the best cycle for gaining mass for a beginner. My diet and nutrition is good and I get 250g protein and 4000 calories a day. Any advice on diet and nutrition will be greatly appreciated as well.

My current stats are:

Age: 18*?*

Weight: 75kg

Bf % : 10%

Height: 5"10"

Training experience: 3 years

So if you have a cycle which you believe works please post it up.

Thanks


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## stone14

up your protein abit imo 300g+ and run a basic cycle

weeks

1-4 dbol 30 ed

1-8 test 500mg ew

hcg 250-500 x2 ew throughout cycle (optional)

keep nolv and/or an ai to hand for gyno.

3weeks nolv and/or clomid pct 2-3weeks after last test inj.

nice and simple.


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## dbol5

For beginner straight 10/12 weeks of test


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## Itchy Nips

Your only 18 you dont need aas yet

however your probably going to run it anyway so either of the two posted cycles will be fine

read up on ai's and pct


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## zack amin

personally i seriously doubt your diet is spot on,you need to definanelty bump up your protien, write out your diet plan my good man, you could make way more gains at that age/height/weight before AAS


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## zack amin

hang on a fukin dingly minute youve already been given so much advice mr rugby player whats got you confused now


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## zack amin

youve been told gaining mass is going to downplay your ability!!!!! stick to the advice some one went out there way to detail with and give you (rowrow) and stop acting like a child cause your posts are getting anoing am sorry to say, you ARE REALLY NOT READY FOR STEROIDS!


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## Kennyken

4000 calories a day mate? post your diet up


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## kangaroorampage

bigjuice:3225279 said:


> youve been told gaining mass is going to downplay your ability!!!!! stick to the advice some one went out there way to detail with and give you (rowrow) and stop acting like a child cause your posts are getting anoing am sorry to say, you ARE REALLY NOT READY FOR STEROIDS!


I have listened to rowrows advice but I don't like the fact you have to inject test prop eod as it is very painful having to inject yourself so often. And I am looking for everyones opinion because I'm confused with a lot of things which I have read in books and posts on this forum


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## GolfDelta

bigjuice said:


> hang on a fukin dingly minute youve already been given so much advice mr rugby player whats got you confused now


It's a joke,how much help does this kid want,he's been recommended various cycles by helpful members (not by me I think he's an idiot) and spoon fed yet still posts the same question.

Why not spend the time you use making thread after thread doing some actual hard work then you might be 'good enough' at your rugby trials.


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## zack amin

GolfDelta said:


> It's a joke,how much help does this kid want,he's been recommended various cycles by helpful members (not by me I think he's an idiot) and spoon fed yet still posts the same question.
> 
> Why not spend the time you use making thread after thread doing some actual hard work then you might be 'good enough' at your rugby trials.


young guns nowadays just want everything spoon thread, OP you know i did 3 years of research before jumping on AAS, i knew how to comnbat every side i knew about half lifes i knew about how to diet to make the most out of my cycle, i was by no means an expert but i could hold my own in any AAS convo, test prop doesnt not hurt being injected eod, most probs are painless if a good lab, the reason it was recommended to YOU in the first place is due to it holding less water and bloat, you are seriously asking to **** up your trials mate in all honeslty your not going down a good road and i can see you ruining your rugby future via this route, good luck to you pal


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## kangaroorampage

GolfDelta:3225298 said:


> It's a joke,how much help does this kid want,he's been recommended various cycles by helpful members (not by me I think he's an idiot) and spoon fed yet still posts the same question.
> 
> Why not spend the time you use making thread after thread doing some actual hard work then you might be 'good enough' at your rugby trials.


I have been listening to everyones advice. I like rowrows cycle but I don't like the fact that I have inject myself with test prop eod


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## BigTrev

18 years of age and wanting steroids for rugby,,,no wonder why responsable steroid users get bad vibes from the general public.Teenagers should not be going near steroids at all period.If you want to build for rugby get your diet in order and be fit.Your body is still growing so why mess it up.


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## Rav212

It's gotta be the big Mac cycle! 3 cheeseburgers every 4 hours that's the half life! Mcdonalds I's a good reputable lab for them!


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## DiamondDixie

This one seems to be quite good


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## Pain2Gain

Thought the guys name was familiar, he's just one of them he's going to do it no matter what we tell him and needs it spoon feeding untill he's told exactly what he wants to hear. Pretty pathetic really just remember these posts of advice in a couple of years when your sat wondering why the feck you never made it in rugby


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## dbol5

Rav212 said:


> It's gotta be the big Mac cycle! 3 cheeseburgers every 4 hours that's the half life! Mcdonalds I's a good reputable lab for them!


LOL! This is defo my next cycle


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## BigTrev

dbol5 said:


> LOL! This is defo my next cycle


I fancy that cycle to as im sure no sides at all apart from a more bloated look...So what would you use for pct after that,? maybe a tub of ice cream each day for a month til the hunger kicks in,,lol


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## Fullhouse

3g test pw

1g tren pw

100mg dbol ed first and last 4 weeks

100mg oxy ed first and last 4 weeks


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## stone14

Water will effect your rugby so control that and test will be fine, or low dose test with mod eq, poss tbol as an oral or var, a good ai, and diet to control water.


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## BigTrev

best advice is give your body time to grow and develope naturally and eat right then if you still want steroids decide to in 5 years from now.18 years is just madness to be taking aas.


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## Marshan

Sneaky sneaky!!


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## Hotdog147

I find it hard to believe people are actually recommending cycles for 18 yr olds!


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## DrRinse

> I find it hard to believe people are actually recommending cycles for 18 yr olds!


+1. It's like that jordan_scott eejit that popped up a month or so ago. Just reading his dumb, immature posts was enough to make me stay the hell away from posting absolutely anything for that chump. I wouldn't want to feel partly responsible in giving advice on cycles and then for anything bad that was to happen to him as a result. The guy was clueless, petulant and a complete pain in the ass.

Ant


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## engllishboy

Hotdog147 said:


> I find it hard to believe people are actually recommending cycles for 18 yr olds!


It's not so much advising cycles for an 18 year old. It's more....helping him so that he does it as safely as possible. Let's face it, most 18 year olds coming here or advice are going to use no matter what we say. Why send him a way with no help, so that he injects and necks tabs without precaution? We're here to help him do it safely. Obviously we'd advise not to do it, but as he's going to, night as well make toy safe and worthwhile.


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## IGotTekkers

10% bf on 4000 cals a day? You must be doing a ****load of regular cardio!

If you don't want pain of needle, just run dbol on its own for 12 weeks at 350mg per day.


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## C.Hill

Hotdog147 said:


> I find it hard to believe people are actually recommending cycles for 18 yr olds!


He'll end up running a cycle anyway, might as well help him run it as safe and sensible as poss.


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## ausbuilt

OK I'm not supposed to link directly to this forum, so for the OP's benefit, this is the BEST beginner advice for DIET, TRAINING & *AAS* I have EVER read on the web- wished I knew this at 18!

*Growth principles for beginners*

This is a general guide for beginning and intermediate bodybuilders that don't know the principles behind muscle growth yet or are not happy with the results that they are currently getting.

We will go through training, diet and gear. I will tell you the principles behind everything that I recommend for you to do, so you can understand why certain things happen, so in the future you can fix problems yourself. Bodybuilding is a very simple and logical endeavour. Everything that you do has to be logical. Only logical actions will give you results. Every time that you come across a new principle, always ask yourself it it makes logical sense. If it does not, dump it!

*TRAINING*

*
*

Why does a muscle grow? Because it has to adapt. When does it have to adapt? When you expose it to something that it has not done before. When is something that it

has not done before? When the muscle is taxed 100%. That's 100% effort. What's 100% effort? When you train to 100% PHYSICAL, not mental failure. So, to make the muscle grow, you have to train with 100% effort otherwise, the muscle will not adapt/grow. Now, using the above logic, for a set to be beneficial to your growth, it needs to be 100% effort. So, a 100% effort set of an exercise, will make you grow. Then, what is the point to do a second set of that exercise? You cannot go more than 100%. The muscle already has been taxed by 100% from the first set, so why should you do a second one? You will just eat into your recovery ability.

So, you should only do one set to failure per exercise. Later on, I will describe the training program and how exercises and warm-ups are involved.

A muscle will not grow until it's recovered. The muscle will not begin to recover until the nervous system is recovered. It takes roughly 24hours for the

nervous system to recover from a workout. Only then will the muscle begin to recover and grow. So, you should never train 2 days in a row. Even if you train different bodyparts, you still use the same nervous system. You train 2 days in a row, your nervous system recovers, but by the time the muscles begin to, you

train again, so the body has to concentrate again on recovering the nervous system. A training frequency of 3 days per week (Mon, Wed, Fri) is more than enough. Numerous pros, including myself, train like this offseason for maximum growth.

Even if you use streroids, you still have to train like this. steroids increase your recovery ability, but they also make you stronger at a quicker rate. The extra strength will give you the ability to train harder/tear more muscle tissue, so you will need the extra recovery that the steroids will give you.

The following is a great training program that I

recomend:

Mon - Chest, Shoulders, Triceps

* Incline press - warm-up sets, 1 work set

* Flat flyes - 1 work set

* Millitary press - 1 warm-up, 1 work set

* Lateral flyes - 1 work set

* Rear delt machine - 1 work set

* Tricep pushdowns - 1 warm-up, 1 work set

* Lying tricep extensions - 1 work-set

Wed - Quads, Hams, Calves

* Squats - warm-ups, 1 work set

* Leg press - work set

* Leg extension - work set

* Leg curl - warm-up, work set

* Stiff leg deadlift - work set

* Standing calf raise - work set

Fri - Abs, Back, Bis

* Rope crunches - warm up, work set

* Lat pull down - warm-ups, work set

* Deadlift - warm-up, work set

* Bent-over rows - work set

* Shrugs - work set

* Standing BB curls - warm up, work set

* Concentration curl - work set

You do a lot of warm-ups for your first exercise of the day. You do one warm-up for the first exercise of each bodypart, only to optimise the firing of te neuropathways.

Let's use chest as an example - if for example your max (work set) in the incline press is 3 plates, then you do 2 warm-ups with the bar, 2 warm-ups with one plate, 1 warm-up with 2 plates and then your work set with 3 plates. The work set is a set where you fail at about 6 reps. Every workout, you have to do more reps or increase the weight in that work set (remember, the muscle has to do something that it has not done before). So if one work out you fail with 6 reps, the following nothing less than 7. When you reach 8 reps, the following workout you should do (increase) a weight where you can do minimum 4 reps. Then increase your reps again every workout until you reach 8 again, and so on. Each rep has a tempo of 2-1-1. That is 2 seconds in the negative, one second in the contraction and 1 second in the positive. Then, after you fail in the incline press, you move

straight to flat flyes. You do not need a warmp now because your chest is more than warm after you failed on presses. And that's it for chest. The basic routine stays the same. If you want variety, small changes as using DB's instead of BB or doing flat presse and incline flyes for example, is mor ethan enough variety to keep the muscle 'confused'.

*DIET*

VERY simple. Very important that you try to get as close to *500g of protein per day*. Easiest way to do that is to have a whey protein shake in water with every meal. Fats and carbs don't matter. Calories don't count, macro nutrients (protein, fat, carb) do. If you get to add fat on, just cut out the fats and keep your carbs bellow 300g/day. That's all it is!

Very simple, but hard to stick to, so not many people get results. On gear, the more protein you eat, the more you grow. Is as simple as that. Gear maximises protein synthesis.

*GEAR*

You need a *testosterone base. 750mg/week* is plenty. You need an *anabolic - deca or Eq at 400mg/week* is plenty. You need for optimum growth, a* good oral like d-bol at 30mg/d or A-50 50mg/d*.

You *use the test and the anabolic non stop*. The *oral*

*
is 4 weeks on 4 weeks off*. Every 6th week (the half way point between the off oral period - so 2 weeks after you finish the oral) you have a blood test. If the blood test is OK, then you can begin your next 4weeks on oral. *There is no reason for you to come off*.

The only 2 reasons are health or your receptors are saturated. If the regular blood test is OK, your health is OK. If you are still making progress, your receptors are OK. Coming off, will just sabotage your gains. That's why I do not believe in set time frames for cycles. Listen to your body.... Of course you cannot drink or do rec drugs during that time. Using these precautions, your blood tests will be OK. You also need to use an anti estrogen like Nolvadex at 10mg/d throughout the whole time. Also, you have a choice between HCG every 4 weeks at 5000IU or Clomid at 50mg EOD. These will make sure that your balls will stay at a decent size and they will not forget how to function.

The blood tests that you need are:

full blood count,

liver and kidney function tests, FSH, LH, TSH,

cholesterol.

If the Total protein test in the liver tests is high, that is because of your diet. You need to keep an eye on the Billirubin and Urea test results. Your FSH and LH will be suppressed - that's normal because of the gear. If the TSH is low, add 20mcg/d T3. If the kidney function is off, then drink more. protein stresses the kidneys, so you need more fluids.

When you eventually come off the gear, you make surE that you are off the orals. Then cut out the anabolic over 2 weeks. Then the testosterone over 3 weeks. One week after that, you need to add primo tabs or anavar (oxandrin) for 3 weeks. That will ensure that you will

keep your gains. Ideally do a gainkeeper's formula that is outlined in another article.

These are the basic principles behind muscle growth. You do the above you will GROW, no matter what.


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## renshaw

IGotTekkers said:


> 10% bf on 4000 cals a day? You must be doing a ****load of regular cardio!
> 
> If you don't want pain of needle, just run dbol on its own for 12 weeks at 350mg per day.


Followed by liver failure..


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## Brook877

Hotdog147 said:


> I find it hard to believe people are actually recommending cycles for 18 yr olds!


+2

I don't get it, I wouldn't recommend a nice tipple to a alcoholic, or which pub chain does the biggest mixed grill to a fatty..

Unless some one turns round and tells him three painless injections of ""chosen steroid"" will make him a massive rugby god and delivers it to him for free he's going to keep posting these bs threads..

The kids a tool, and doesn't listen,

My personal option is leave him to it.

Good luck, god bless.


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## GolfDelta

I kind of agree with both views here in that,yes,if he's going to run a cycle regardless then helping him do it safely is probably the right thing to do but at the same time it annoys me he only takes the advice that he WANTS to hear i.e. so many experienced members tell him not to do it and give valid reasons yet he just ignores them,despite his lack of knowledge being frightening.

It's his attitude that annoys me more than the fact he wants to jump on AAS.


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## GolfDelta

chilisi said:


> Many users have started at 18 and below are have used safely ever since. Not sure I would have been sensible enough to start at that age myself though.


I started at 18 and regret it,I wish I had waited at least a few years and had better knowledge (or any) hence my attempts to encourage the OP away from it!

And the OP doesn't seem sensible enough in my opinion lol,with stuff like 'I am going on holiday with my mummy and daddy where can I buy steroids with my pocket money?'.


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## kangaroorampage

ausbuilt:3227948 said:


> OK I'm not supposed to link directly to this forum, so for the OP's benefit, this is the BEST beginner advice for DIET, TRAINING & *AAS* I have EVER read on the web- wished I knew this at 18!
> 
> *Growth principles for beginners*
> 
> This is a general guide for beginning and intermediate bodybuilders that don't know the principles behind muscle growth yet or are not happy with the results that they are currently getting.
> 
> We will go through training, diet and gear. I will tell you the principles behind everything that I recommend for you to do, so you can understand why certain things happen, so in the future you can fix problems yourself. Bodybuilding is a very simple and logical endeavour. Everything that you do has to be logical. Only logical actions will give you results. Every time that you come across a new principle, always ask yourself it it makes logical sense. If it does not, dump it!
> 
> *TRAINING*
> 
> *
> *
> 
> Why does a muscle grow? Because it has to adapt. When does it have to adapt? When you expose it to something that it has not done before. When is something that it
> 
> has not done before? When the muscle is taxed 100%. That's 100% effort. What's 100% effort? When you train to 100% PHYSICAL, not mental failure. So, to make the muscle grow, you have to train with 100% effort otherwise, the muscle will not adapt/grow. Now, using the above logic, for a set to be beneficial to your growth, it needs to be 100% effort. So, a 100% effort set of an exercise, will make you grow. Then, what is the point to do a second set of that exercise? You cannot go more than 100%. The muscle already has been taxed by 100% from the first set, so why should you do a second one? You will just eat into your recovery ability.
> 
> So, you should only do one set to failure per exercise. Later on, I will describe the training program and how exercises and warm-ups are involved.
> 
> A muscle will not grow until it's recovered. The muscle will not begin to recover until the nervous system is recovered. It takes roughly 24hours for the
> 
> nervous system to recover from a workout. Only then will the muscle begin to recover and grow. So, you should never train 2 days in a row. Even if you train different bodyparts, you still use the same nervous system. You train 2 days in a row, your nervous system recovers, but by the time the muscles begin to, you
> 
> train again, so the body has to concentrate again on recovering the nervous system. A training frequency of 3 days per week (Mon, Wed, Fri) is more than enough. Numerous pros, including myself, train like this offseason for maximum growth.
> 
> Even if you use streroids, you still have to train like this. steroids increase your recovery ability, but they also make you stronger at a quicker rate. The extra strength will give you the ability to train harder/tear more muscle tissue, so you will need the extra recovery that the steroids will give you.
> 
> The following is a great training program that I
> 
> recomend:
> 
> Mon - Chest, Shoulders, Triceps
> 
> * Incline press - warm-up sets, 1 work set
> 
> * Flat flyes - 1 work set
> 
> * Millitary press - 1 warm-up, 1 work set
> 
> * Lateral flyes - 1 work set
> 
> * Rear delt machine - 1 work set
> 
> * Tricep pushdowns - 1 warm-up, 1 work set
> 
> * Lying tricep extensions - 1 work-set
> 
> Wed - Quads, Hams, Calves
> 
> * Squats - warm-ups, 1 work set
> 
> * Leg press - work set
> 
> * Leg extension - work set
> 
> * Leg curl - warm-up, work set
> 
> * Stiff leg deadlift - work set
> 
> * Standing calf raise - work set
> 
> Fri - Abs, Back, Bis
> 
> * Rope crunches - warm up, work set
> 
> * Lat pull down - warm-ups, work set
> 
> * Deadlift - warm-up, work set
> 
> * Bent-over rows - work set
> 
> * Shrugs - work set
> 
> * Standing BB curls - warm up, work set
> 
> * Concentration curl - work set
> 
> You do a lot of warm-ups for your first exercise of the day. You do one warm-up for the first exercise of each bodypart, only to optimise the firing of te neuropathways.
> 
> Let's use chest as an example - if for example your max (work set) in the incline press is 3 plates, then you do 2 warm-ups with the bar, 2 warm-ups with one plate, 1 warm-up with 2 plates and then your work set with 3 plates. The work set is a set where you fail at about 6 reps. Every workout, you have to do more reps or increase the weight in that work set (remember, the muscle has to do something that it has not done before). So if one work out you fail with 6 reps, the following nothing less than 7. When you reach 8 reps, the following workout you should do (increase) a weight where you can do minimum 4 reps. Then increase your reps again every workout until you reach 8 again, and so on. Each rep has a tempo of 2-1-1. That is 2 seconds in the negative, one second in the contraction and 1 second in the positive. Then, after you fail in the incline press, you move
> 
> straight to flat flyes. You do not need a warmp now because your chest is more than warm after you failed on presses. And that's it for chest. The basic routine stays the same. If you want variety, small changes as using DB's instead of BB or doing flat presse and incline flyes for example, is mor ethan enough variety to keep the muscle 'confused'.
> 
> *DIET*
> 
> VERY simple. Very important that you try to get as close to *500g of protein per day*. Easiest way to do that is to have a whey protein shake in water with every meal. Fats and carbs don't matter. Calories don't count, macro nutrients (protein, fat, carb) do. If you get to add fat on, just cut out the fats and keep your carbs bellow 300g/day. That's all it is!
> 
> Very simple, but hard to stick to, so not many people get results. On gear, the more protein you eat, the more you grow. Is as simple as that. Gear maximises protein synthesis.
> 
> *GEAR*
> 
> You need a *testosterone base. 750mg/week* is plenty. You need an *anabolic - deca or Eq at 400mg/week* is plenty. You need for optimum growth, a* good oral like d-bol at 30mg/d or A-50 50mg/d*.
> 
> You *use the test and the anabolic non stop*. The *oral*
> 
> *
> is 4 weeks on 4 weeks off*. Every 6th week (the half way point between the off oral period - so 2 weeks after you finish the oral) you have a blood test. If the blood test is OK, then you can begin your next 4weeks on oral. *There is no reason for you to come off*.
> 
> The only 2 reasons are health or your receptors are saturated. If the regular blood test is OK, your health is OK. If you are still making progress, your receptors are OK. Coming off, will just sabotage your gains. That's why I do not believe in set time frames for cycles. Listen to your body.... Of course you cannot drink or do rec drugs during that time. Using these precautions, your blood tests will be OK. You also need to use an anti estrogen like Nolvadex at 10mg/d throughout the whole time. Also, you have a choice between HCG every 4 weeks at 5000IU or Clomid at 50mg EOD. These will make sure that your balls will stay at a decent size and they will not forget how to function.
> 
> The blood tests that you need are:
> 
> full blood count,
> 
> liver and kidney function tests, FSH, LH, TSH,
> 
> cholesterol.
> 
> If the Total protein test in the liver tests is high, that is because of your diet. You need to keep an eye on the Billirubin and Urea test results. Your FSH and LH will be suppressed - that's normal because of the gear. If the TSH is low, add 20mcg/d T3. If the kidney function is off, then drink more. protein stresses the kidneys, so you need more fluids.
> 
> When you eventually come off the gear, you make surE that you are off the orals. Then cut out the anabolic over 2 weeks. Then the testosterone over 3 weeks. One week after that, you need to add primo tabs or anavar (oxandrin) for 3 weeks. That will ensure that you will
> 
> keep your gains. Ideally do a gainkeeper's formula that is outlined in another article.
> 
> These are the basic principles behind muscle growth. You do the above you will GROW, no matter what.


Thanks for the help but how do you get so much protein in your diet? Where can I find the gainkeepers formula?


----------



## BigTrev

Simple really as responsable aas users we shouldnt be making it ok that a teen takes this gear.I really do see the point of ones saying he will anyway tho feel it wrong to tell him which aas to use and what amount.If he goes ahead and takes it then hes not into bodybuilding for the long term and thinks he will get a quick fix.The facts are he could get a quick call to his local hospital with serious trouble.At 18 that guys liver is not even strong enough.Im not knocking any of yous whos added to this thread as i know most of yous are in this properly.I also took aas at the age of 19 and by 21 i ended up with jaundice and my liver was in some state and months of a very hard recovery.I was the lucky one that im here to tell the story.Wish i had of had this forum back then as i know i wouldnt have done it tho in the late 80s no internet or proper guidance like we have today.Im 42 now and see so many teens wanting these aas just like i did.Please listen and dont take aas until your body is ready and think more about diet,,training and beleaf.Its also doing all us responsable aas users a favour as we dont need another news story of teen dies using steroids etc etc.


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## C.Hill

I WISH I had started at using aas at 18!


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## stone14

Im glad i waited to 22 was into too much weekend drinkingbetc to take aas seriously back then.


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## kangaroorampage

Hey guys, i have manned up and decided to go with Rowrows cycle:

weeks 1-8 test prop 500mg a week, jabbed eod

then either 1-8 Npp 300mg a week, jabbed eod or 60mg tbol ed

1-8 adex 0.5 mg eod

then start pct after your trials

1-4 40/40/20/20mg nolva

1-4 100/100/50/50 mg clomid

Thanks for all the help people, I may act like a douche at times but i just need some advice from everyone.


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## kangaroorampage

chilisi:3228753 said:


> Why test prop out of Interest. That a lot jabbing for a first cycle.
> 
> Make sure you rotate sites. 8 weeks eod could result into an infection/abcess if you don't give the area a break.


Test prop because it's a short ester and because it was recommended to me by rowrow and it fits in with ausbuilts advice


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## BigTrev

chilisi said:


> What could land him in hospital that couldn't anyone older?


You must not realize that as a persons liver at 18 is no where near as strong as someone older.It plain facts...Go ask a liver specialist.At 18 his body is still developing and growing.His body cant cope the same way and thats reality.The only advice he is willing to listen to is anyone willing to give him the advice on a cycle so its a waste of texting here.


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## sam2012

BigTrev said:


> You must not realize that as a persons liver at 18 is no where near as strong as someone older.It plain facts...Go ask a liver specialist.At 18 his body is still developing and growing.His body cant cope the same way and thats reality.The only advice he is willing to listen to is anyone willing to give him the advice on a cycle so its a waste of texting here.


Just remember alcohol becomes legal at 18, and steroids if not abused are far less likely to cause damage than alcohol is. He could be out getting pi55ed every night if he wanted to, instead he's training, and playing rugby. You may have gotten jaundice but as you said in your post, you had no access to research because there was no internet. This lad is researching, and regardless of what you say, he will take them anyway. Its better that he does it as safe as possible. After all there is far worse things he could be doing.


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## baggsy1436114680

If your going to cycle thats your choice in the end, but i would go with long esters test, iv been using gear for a few cycles and still have not jabbed eod as this is too much for me, twice a week max, eod jabs for a first cycle f that, also if you jab quads chances are you will be sore for 1-2 days atleast and this will affect your training running etc


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## kangaroorampage

IGotTekkers:3227873 said:


> 10% bf on 4000 cals a day? You must be doing a ****load of regular cardio!
> 
> If you don't want pain of needle, just run dbol on its own for 12 weeks at 350mg per day.


Yeah, I kinda do a lot of exercise. In school I have 8 training sessions a week, I do weight training 4 days a week (4 day split), and 4 rugby sessions


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## ausbuilt

BigTrev said:


> You must not realize that as a persons liver at 18 is no where near as strong as someone older.It plain facts...Go ask a liver specialist.At 18 his body is still developing and growing.His body cant cope the same way and thats reality.The only advice he is willing to listen to is anyone willing to give him the advice on a cycle so its a waste of texting here.


mate, you may be opinionated, and all high and mighty when it comes to proclaiming an 18 year old liver is not as strong as an older liver... becuase the facts are in fact the opposite:

"...*Drug clearance is often higher in children than in adults*, particularly when normalized to body weight. We *previously showed that liver volume normalized to body weight was inversely related to age,* but that the systemic clearance of a nonspecific cytochrome P450 (CYP) substrate (antipyrine) was higher in young children compared with adults even when normalized per liver volume."

from:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10725303

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10725303

read it and weep mate...

if you're slow on the uptake that clearly states childrens livers process drugs better....

not convinced? Oxys (Abombs, anaplon, anadrol) or Oxymethenelone are prescribed at 1-5mg/kg bodyweight for childeren and 1-3mg/kg for adults:

http://www.afboard.com/library/Review%20of%20Oxymetholone.pdf

look at dosage on 797 to p798... and notice they say 3-6months of therapy...

My point? Dont think you're preaching safety- you're not..


----------



## kangaroorampage

Hey ausbuilt, how can I get 500g protein in my diet? And where can I read the gainkeepers formula article?


----------



## Kennyken

kangaroorampage said:


> Hey ausbuilt, how can I get 500g protein in my diet? And where can I read the gainkeepers formula article?


Food mate


----------



## Maximus Pullo

BigTrev said:


> Simple really as responsable aas users we shouldnt be making it ok that a teen takes this gear.I really do see the point of ones saying he will anyway tho feel it wrong to tell him which aas to use and what amount.If he goes ahead and takes it then hes not into bodybuilding for the long term and thinks he will get a quick fix.The facts are he could get a quick call to his local hospital with serious trouble.At 18 that guys liver is not even strong enough.Im not knocking any of yous whos added to this thread as i know most of yous are in this properly.I also took aas at the age of 19 and by 21 i ended up with jaundice and my liver was in some state and months of a very hard recovery.I was the lucky one that im here to tell the story.Wish i had of had this forum back then as i know i wouldnt have done it tho in the late 80s no internet or proper guidance like we have today.Im 42 now and see so many teens wanting these aas just like i did.Please listen and dont take aas until your body is ready and think more about diet,,training and beleaf.Its also doing all us responsable aas users a favour as we dont need another news story of teen dies using steroids etc etc.


Great advice! You are looking out for the guy. I wonder how his endocrine system will be effected? I don't know.


----------



## kangaroorampage

Kennyken:3230159 said:


> Food mate


Yeah, I eat food but can only get around 250g protein.


----------



## Maximus Pullo

kangaroorampage said:


> Yeah, I eat food but can only get around 250g protein.


Mate the obvious way to get more protein is to buy a tub of whey protein. I like phd ht. But i am guessing you are not eating much at all so maybe you should go for a medium carb weight gainer like usn muscle fuel anabolic.

Personally i mix glycoject karbolyn with syntrax nectar  YUM!


----------



## Hotdog147

kangaroorampage said:


> Yeah, I eat food but can only get around 250g protein.


Why? Eat more meat and drink some shakes. Simple


----------



## ausbuilt

kangaroorampage said:


> Hey ausbuilt, how can I get 500g protein in my diet?
> 
> personally I eat it (meat/fish) and drink it (shakes/shots), however you may wish stick more sausages up your ass, if you're asking stupid questions like this.
> 
> If you come out with some **** like "i can't eat/drink that much" how do you expect your "big man" steroid cycle to build you any muscle?
> 
> If my comments are harsh, its becuase for your own safety and progress I try and shut down some of the bro-science arguements against a teen using AAS- but I call you a ****a for missing the obvious- if you cant eat like a man, how do you expect to be one?
> 
> And where can I read the gainkeepers formula article?
> 
> http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/steroid-testosterone-information/102444-famous-power-pct-program-dr-michael-scally.html
> 
> its much the same, but both are a lie- you will lose your gains in a few months, if you don't cycle again, or stay on.... thats the truth.


----------



## Hotdog147

**ausbuilt**.............Telling it like it is since 2010.......


----------



## ausbuilt

kangaroorampage said:


> Yeah, I eat food but can only get around 250g protein.


are you serious? my girl in the pic does 300g/day..


----------



## kangaroorampage

Is there any way to keep the steroid gains without having to do continuous steroid cycles?


----------



## Maximus Pullo

WTF! i cant believe this! So if i gain 1 stone from a cycle (post pct) i will lose the gains after a few months?

WTF! You have broken my dreams Ausbuilt but i appreciate the truth.


----------



## Hotdog147

Maximus Pullo said:


> WTF! i cant believe this! So if i gain 1 stone from a cycle (post pct) i will lose the gains after a few months?
> 
> WTF! You have broken my dreams Ausbuilt but i appreciate the truth.


Not sure if you're joking or not!! LOL

You won't lose all your gains mate, not unless you are already at your genetic limit! Which I highly doubt most of us are anyway! :lol:


----------



## ausbuilt

kangaroorampage said:


> Is there any way to keep the steroid gains without having to do continuous steroid cycles?


even with Ideal PCT.... *NO*

why do you think everyone on here keeps talking about their next cycle (or like me, don't come of for 12 months, and I will be on another 12....)

the logical truth is, if you need supraphysiological levels of hormone to achieve a level of muscle mass and performance, how can you expect to keep/maintain it with a "normal" level???

the simple truth is, if this where possible, than you could argue under ideal food, training, sleep and long enough time, you could achieve the same level of muscle as a steroid user who stays on cycle.... and the simple fact is, you can't....

I'm not trying to talk you out of anything; but be aware, your gains will be temporary, or you are committing to continuous cycling (or just not coming of as in the link i posted) to keep your gains and or improve...


----------



## Maximus Pullo

Hotdog147 said:


> Not sure if you're joking or not!! LOL
> 
> You won't lose all your gains mate, not unless you are already at your genetic limit! Which I highly doubt most of us are anyway! :lol:


But ausbuilt just said..." you will lose your gains in a few months, if you don't cycle again, or stay on.... thats the truth." I hope i have taken that out of context or something.


----------



## ausbuilt

Maximus Pullo said:


> WTF! i cant believe this! So if i gain 1 stone from a cycle (post pct) i will lose the gains after a few months?
> 
> WTF! You have broken my dreams Ausbuilt but i appreciate the truth.


i assume this is mock horror...

you wont lose all your gains in a few months, but most... and the rest will go eventually...



Hotdog147 said:


> Not sure if you're joking or not!! LOL
> 
> You won't lose all your gains mate, not unless you are already at your genetic limit! Which I highly doubt most of us are anyway! :lol:


your genetic limit is the muscle you can put on without AAS...


----------



## Maximus Pullo

.


----------



## Maximus Pullo

ausbuilt said:


> i assume this is mock horror...
> 
> you wont lose all your gains in a few months, but most... and the rest will go eventually...
> 
> your genetic limit is the muscle you can put on without AAS...


nah not mocking ausbuilt.... i am genuinely devastated. i thought it would make me bigger on a permanent basis  I knew i would lose some during and after pct but not all/most.


----------



## Hotdog147

ausbuilt said:


> i assume this is mock horror...
> 
> you wont lose all your gains in a few months, but most... and the rest will go eventually...
> 
> your genetic limit is the muscle you can put on without AAS...


I know it is mate! What I was getting at is how many of us reached that before using AAS!!


----------



## Maximus Pullo

Oh so if i reach my genetic potential i wont drop below that?

I am 5,10 i reckon i can maintain 16.5stone naturally


----------



## kangaroorampage

I have just got past the shock after I read ausbuilts comment


----------



## kangaroorampage

At this point I hope ausbuilt is joking, Because this is something I did not expect.


----------



## Maximus Pullo

kangaroorampage said:


> I have just got past the shock after I read ausbuilts comment


Yes maybe i will reconsider my cycle. I am not sure it is worth the risks.

I aint spending 300 quid, risking bitch tits, hair loss etc just for temporary gains! F*** THAT!


----------



## Hotdog147

Maximus Pullo said:


> Yes maybe i will reconsider my cycle. I am not sure it is worth the risks.
> 
> I aint spending 300 quid, risking bitch tits, hair loss etc just for temporary gains! F*** THAT!


You 2 make me :lol:

Did you honestly think it was that easy!!!


----------



## Maximus Pullo

Hotdog147 said:


> You 2 make me :lol:
> 
> Did you honestly think it was that easy!!!


No one said it was easy. Whats the point in doing cycles if you will lose every single lb! Thats s***.


----------



## HypnoticParkour

kangaroorampage said:


> I have listened to rowrows advice but I don't like the fact you have to inject test prop eod as it is very painful having to inject yourself so often. And I am looking for everyones opinion because I'm confused with a lot of things which I have read in books and posts on this forum


muscle comes at a price, thats dedication and pain, if youre not prepared or just half hearted you need to go hard or go home, plus youre only 18! i think im quite young at 21! either way just read read read!


----------



## Maximus Pullo

ausbuilt said:


> i assume this is mock horror...
> 
> you wont lose all your gains in a few months, but most... and the rest will go eventually...
> 
> your genetic limit is the muscle you can put on without AAS...


Ausbuilt, how about if you end a cycle with anavar? Would that help keep gains?

"You would increase your chances of maintaining mass post cycle if you were able to recover quickly. One way to do this is end a cycle on a short estered steriod like anavar, tbol, winstrol or test prop. In doing so you are able to start pct within 2-3 days after you stop steroids. Ending on a long ester you need to wait 2 weeks while the hormone slowly leaves your body. This is a criticle time and is where things can start to go south. Your body is losing the testosterone you put in and estrogen rises. Then you are trying to get natural production going again using nolva or whatever you chose. This process is also slow and takes weeks for you to get production going significantly and months to get back to normal. "

What do you think about this? Just something i read.


----------



## DrRinse

My natural test levels when measured 5 years ago were 13.7 nmol/l. That's years before I even dreamt of taking steroids. For someone at my age then (28), I think 13.7 nmol/l was pretty poor. When measured way after PCT from my 1st cycle of test/deca/dbol 1 year ago it was about 11 nmol/l which I reckon would be consistent with the natural decline in test levels with age. Considering my ideal goal is to get to 210-220 lbs at a reasonable 12-13% BF, I don't think a test level of 11 nmol/l would be anywhere near enough to support that amount of lean tissue. What I'm facing now is effectively self-administered TRT to keep my test levels off cycle in the 30+ nmol/l range and also do blast cycles. This will continue for the foreseeable future. I'd say to anyone looking to start steroids is to consider the enormity of what you're about to enter into. You can't just do a cycle or two, leave it at that and continue to keep those gains indefinitely.

The problem for me certainly is that now that I've experienced training with steroids, the idea of going back to training naturally is simply not an option. I would dare say I'm someone who could be considered psychologically addicted to steroids. Returning to natural training would be such a blow to me mentally as to not make weight training worth it at all. However, I consider myself "in too deep" now to stop and there is nothing short of a major health scare that would prevent me from attaining my goal. It frightens me sometimes to think of that and by no means am I saying that everyone will end up psychologically addicted but I think that most people here are very driven to become the best they can be. By virtue of that fact that we take steroids in the first place, it shows how very seriously we take the whole weight training thing.

Think carefully before proceeding with your first cycle. This can turn into lifelong lifestyle choice that you may not have anticipated. By the time you're 3-4 cycles in, you might be in a place where your initial plan of a few cycles has vanished and you've resigned yourself to continuous long-term use.

Ant


----------



## BigTrev

ausbuilt said:


> mate, you may be opinionated, and all high and mighty when it comes to proclaiming an 18 year old liver is not as strong as an older liver... becuase the facts are in fact the opposite:
> 
> "...*Drug clearance is often higher in children than in adults*, particularly when normalized to body weight. We *previously showed that liver volume normalized to body weight was inversely related to age,* but that the systemic clearance of a nonspecific cytochrome P450 (CYP) substrate (antipyrine) was higher in young children compared with adults even when normalized per liver volume."
> 
> from:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10725303
> 
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10725303
> 
> read it and weep mate...
> 
> if you're slow on the uptake that clearly states childrens livers process drugs better....
> 
> not convinced? Oxys (Abombs, anaplon, anadrol) or Oxymethenelone are prescribed at 1-5mg/kg bodyweight for childeren and 1-3mg/kg for adults:
> 
> http://www.afboard.com/library/Review%20of%20Oxymetholone.pdf
> 
> look at dosage on 797 to p798... and notice they say 3-6months of therapy...
> 
> My point? Dont think you're preaching safety- you're not..


Oh arent you the one advised him in taking it lol...i mind that name ok,,,,yeah whatever mate....facts are facts


----------



## BigTrev

Sure going by your text towards me your the high and mighty....steroids in teens is simply the wrong choice.No teen is experienced enough to be making choices like that.Let them live life and develope both mind and body without saying its ok for them to inject aas...I might not be preaching safety tho your certainly not mate

ps go chat to a liver specialist is teens liver stronger,,,lol,,,,


----------



## shakz

Test E / Sus 500mg - 750mg throughout

Anavar 100mg for six weeks

Dianabol 30mg for six to eight weeks

Nolvadex 10mg throughout + Proviron 50mg throughout

HCG at 500iu with nolvadex at 40mg preferably week 7 and 8

Dianabol only at 30mg is fine merely for the use of protein synthesis

If you have the money and right gear run turinabol at 80mg a day for six weeks instead of dianabol

Dont bother with winstrol, as its pointless for a temporary quick fix and so bad for joints and hairloss and not to mention your liver!

Anavar is perfect for lean mass strength vascularity and if your diet isnt great it will still keep your abs (as your 10% bf)

Proviron if you worry about hairloss dont bother with it

Trenbolone acetate at 350mg is perfect but its a bit much for first cycle even second cycle tbh


----------



## Kennyken

This is def a contender for thread of the year!


----------



## GolfDelta

Kennyken said:


> This is def a contender for thread of the year!


I am not sure whether to laugh or cry at some of the chumps.


----------



## kangaroorampage

**** this ****, I am just going to eat right and hit the gym. I don't need steroids to get big. **** steroids they don't even give you permanent gains after spending £250.


----------



## C.Hill

kangaroorampage said:


> **** this ****, I am just going to eat right and hit the gym. I don't need steroids to get big. **** steroids they don't even give you permanent gains after spending £250.


LMAO


----------



## Guest

C.Hill said:


> LMAO


You laugh now mr hill but after 3 months you'll look like this.


----------



## ausbuilt

Maximus Pullo said:


> Ausbuilt, how about if you end a cycle with anavar? Would that help keep gains?
> 
> "You would increase your chances of maintaining mass post cycle if you were able to recover quickly. One way to do this is end a cycle on a short estered steriod like anavar, tbol, winstrol or test prop. In doing so you are able to start pct within 2-3 days after you stop steroids. Ending on a long ester you need to wait 2 weeks while the hormone slowly leaves your body. This is a criticle time and is where things can start to go south. Your body is losing the testosterone you put in and estrogen rises. Then you are trying to get natural production going again using nolva or whatever you chose. This process is also slow and takes weeks for you to get production going significantly and months to get back to normal. "
> 
> What do you think about this? Just something i read.


yes ok that works fine to get your natural hormone level up... but... if you statt PCT 2-3 days after your cycle, you still have about 1-2weeks of below normal T level... PCT doesnt work instantly...

IF you read the books by A.L Rea (building the perfect beast, chemical muscle enhancement) you will see the last 2 weeks of active AAS is overlapped with the first 2 weeks of PCT, so that there is falling AAS during the RISING test level... so that you spend no time "below normal". Paul Borresson also did his PCT that way, then start his next cycle at the end of the 4 week PCT, meaning he really only had 2 weeks off... here is a quote from in interview:

"...NM: How long of a wait do you recommend before starting another course?

PB: At least 15 days, which comes to 21 days after your last shot. But if you wait too much longer than three weeks, you're going backwards in your progress. You'll spend time "making up" for what you've lost, even if you use anti-catabolics."

http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/steroid-testosterone-information/183643-what-best-cycle-gaining-muscle-12-weeks-6.html

So you start PCT the week of your last long estered shot, do PCT and restart, with only really 2 weeks of.



DrRinse said:


> My natural test levels when measured 5 years ago were 13.7 nmol/l. That's years before I even dreamt of taking steroids. For someone at my age then (28), I think 13.7 nmol/l was pretty poor. When measured way after PCT from my 1st cycle of test/deca/dbol 1 year ago it was about 11 nmol/l which I reckon would be consistent with the natural decline in test levels with age. Considering my ideal goal is to get to 210-220 lbs at a reasonable 12-13% BF, I don't think a test level of 11 nmol/l would be anywhere near enough to support that amount of lean tissue. What I'm facing now is effectively self-administered TRT to keep my test levels off cycle in the 30+ nmol/l range and also do blast cycles. This will continue for the foreseeable future. I'd say to anyone looking to start steroids is to consider the enormity of what you're about to enter into. You can't just do a cycle or two, leave it at that and continue to keep those gains indefinitely.
> 
> The problem for me certainly is that now that I've experienced training with steroids, the idea of going back to training naturally is simply not an option. I would dare say I'm someone who could be considered psychologically addicted to steroids. Returning to natural training would be such a blow to me mentally as to not make weight training worth it at all. However, I consider myself "in too deep" now to stop and there is nothing short of a major health scare that would prevent me from attaining my goal. It frightens me sometimes to think of that and by no means am I saying that everyone will end up psychologically addicted but I think that most people here are very driven to become the best they can be. By virtue of that fact that we take steroids in the first place, it shows how very seriously we take the whole weight training thing.
> 
> Think carefully before proceeding with your first cycle. This can turn into lifelong lifestyle choice that you may not have anticipated. By the time you're 3-4 cycles in, you might be in a place where your initial plan of a few cycles has vanished and you've resigned yourself to continuous long-term use.
> 
> Ant


good post. I dont know about pyschologically addictive, but the plain fact is, if you're after certain amount of muscle, as Paul Borresson states above, more than 2 weeks of is time going backwards.. so it doesnt help your goals..


----------



## GolfDelta

kangaroorampage said:


> **** this ****, I am just going to eat right and hit the gym. I don't need steroids to get big. **** steroids they don't even give you permanent gains after spending £250.


Grade A fool LOL.


----------



## ausbuilt

BigTrev said:


> Oh arent you the one advised him in taking it lol...i mind that name ok,,,,yeah whatever mate....facts are facts


I"m not telling him to do it, just linked good information on DIET, TRAINING AND AAS... all three are important. But the facts are AAS are not as dangerous as people keep making out. However, I think the OP (and many others) are unrealistic in their expectations of AAS.



BigTrev said:


> Sure going by your text towards me your the high and mighty....steroids in teens is simply the wrong choice.No teen is experienced enough to be making choices like that.Let them live life and develope both mind and body without saying its ok for them to inject aas...I might not be preaching safety tho your certainly not mate
> 
> ps go chat to a liver specialist is teens liver stronger,,,lol,,,,


Well liver specialists go by university clinical studies too... so if there is evidence that livers >18yo are stronger than <18 (apart from toddlers) then I'd like to see evidence of this, not just an unsupported statement- in which case its your opinion, on a matter in which you're not an expert (ie you're not a liver specialist to form the opinion based on studies and clinical experience).

Further, many medical practitioners, such as a well known AIDS practitioner Dr Jekot have come to the conclusion that:

"...*The problem of liver toxicity is exaggerated.* That is, while oral 17-alkylated steroids are sometimes associated with liver toxicity, the common oil-based injectables don't present the same kind of liver burden."

and

"... Indeed, this has been the observation of several other doctors familiar with anabolic steroid therapy for AIDS, like Dr. Julian Gold,3 and Dr. Caroline Becker, an endocrinologist with a large practice in Mt. Kisco, N.Y., who underlined this when she said, "*Even with individuals with pre-existing liver disease I would have no compunction in giving them injectable testosterone*."4

from: http://www.medibolics.com/comment2.htm

More to the point C-17 ORALS where trialled in the REPAIR of DAMAGED livers of ALCOHOLICS:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12535450

where it concluded that:

"...Combining the results of five randomised clinical trials randomising 499 patients with alcoholic hepatitis and/or cirrhosis demonstrated *no significant effects of anabolic-androgenic steroids on mortality... liver related mortality... complications of liver disease... and liver histology*."

ie. it didnt help, but it certainly didn't hurt either!

The truth is regardless of age, health (alcoholism or HIV) the effect of AAS on the liver is GREATLY exaggerated on forums, and blindly and stupidly repeated when there is ample evidence to say this is not the case! Of course in some case AAS will cause a liver issue, but then so do most drugs- the biggest cause of liver failure in the UK, USA is PARACETAMOL:

"...While generally safe for use at recommended doses (1,000 mg per single dose and up to 4,000 mg per day for adults),[6] acute *overdoses of paracetamol can cause potentially fatal liver damage *and, *in rare individuals, a normal dose can do the same*; the risk is heightened by alcohol consumption. Paracetamol toxicity is the foremost cause of acute liver failure in the Western world, and accounts for most drug overdoses in the United States, the United Kingdom, Australia and New Zealand."

from:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paracetamol

Now you're not stopping 18 year olds taking paracetamol are you?



shakz said:


> Test E / Sus 500mg - 750mg throughout
> 
> Anavar 100mg for six weeks
> 
> Dianabol 30mg for six to eight weeks
> 
> Nolvadex 10mg throughout + Proviron 50mg throughout
> 
> HCG at 500iu with nolvadex at 40mg preferably week 7 and 8
> 
> Dianabol only at 30mg is fine merely for the use of protein synthesis
> 
> If you have the money and right gear run turinabol at 80mg a day for six weeks instead of dianabol
> 
> Dont bother with winstrol, as its pointless for a temporary quick fix and so bad for joints and hairloss and not to mention your liver!
> 
> Anavar is perfect for lean mass strength vascularity and if your diet isnt great it will still keep your abs (as your 10% bf)
> 
> Proviron if you worry about hairloss dont bother with it
> 
> Trenbolone acetate at 350mg is perfect but its a bit much for first cycle even second cycle tbh


1. There is no evidence for winny being bad for joints or hard on the liver (see post above when it comes to liver toxicity generally)

2. proviron is not required on cycle if taking test, as usually proviron is used ot maintain sex drive on cycles that have no test base. Its pointless here.

3. Why would you run nolvadex?

Its proven to REDUCE igf-1:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11299809

where as Arimidex is PROVEN to SIGNIFICANTLY increase IGF-1:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11983488

so on cycle, take 1mg Arimidex ED.

5. You can take 1000iu HCG every 4 weeks on cycle to maintain testicular function, or 50mg clomid EOD.

6. PCT wise what you mention in weeks 7&8 is inadequate.

PCT as done properly:

http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/steroid-testosterone-information/102444-famous-power-pct-program-dr-michael-scally.html

hope this helps your own knowledge for future cycles..


----------



## Fatstuff

Aus u say there is no evidence on winny being hard on joints, my joints were in agony when I used it. Why is that as I would of liked to use it properly as the strength was amazing !!


----------



## luther1

Iirc deca while on cycle combats joint pain,as does fish oil and fats


----------



## C.Hill

Jd123 said:


> You laugh now mr hill but after 3 months you'll look like this.
> View attachment 86786


Fcuk that I'm staying on for life!!!!


----------



## Maximus Pullo

GolfDelta said:


> Grade A fool LOL.


Whats your problem! You are the "f***"! If he has made this decision can you not respect it. My god some of you guys rock my boat x x x


----------



## Maximus Pullo

ausbuilt said:


> So you start PCT the week of your last long estered shot, do PCT and restart, with only really 2 weeks of.


So even without anavar you think its better to do this

1-10 test e

1-4 dbol

10-13 pct?

so no 2 week gap that everyone else seems to suggest?

Thx aus


----------



## C.Hill

Maximus Pullo said:


> Whats your problem! You are the fool! If he has made this decision can you not respect it. My god some of you guys are god damn dicks*


You mid pct mate???


----------



## GolfDelta

Maximus Pullo said:


> Whats your problem! You are the fool! If he has made this decision can you not respect it. My god some of you guys are god damn dicks*


He's a fool for not listening to people for weeks and doing no research himself.I respect people who do research and read up,not just demand answers.Kindly refrain from insulting me,thanks son.


----------



## GolfDelta

C.Hill said:


> You mid pct mate???


Don't think he's ever run a cycle tbh mate!


----------



## Maximus Pullo

Fatstuff said:


> Aus u say there is no evidence on winny being hard on joints, my joints were in agony when I used it. Why is that as I would of liked to use it properly as the strength was amazing !!


Maybe is has not been proved in a lab but if 8 put of 10 people get achy joints on winny then its pretty clear that it causes achy joints.


----------



## Kennyken

Maximus Pullo said:


> Maybe is has not been proved in a lab but if 8 put of 10 people get achy joints on winny then its pretty clear that it causes achy joints.


No need for the attitude mate. :thumbup1:


----------



## Maximus Pullo

C.Hill said:


> You mid pct mate???


Nope never done it C.Hill. I am in the process of getting it all sorted. http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/steroid-testosterone-information/181321-first-test-e-dbol-cycle-hgc-pct.html

Why? Do you disagree that i called that guy a d***? Why do idiots come on here and call people "fool" "chump" that guys has insulted him twice. Whats his problem. I have never done roids and im bigger then him. maybe i should start calling him names.

OP, if you decide not to do it mate that's fine, ignore the twits like golfdelta


----------



## Maximus Pullo

GolfDelta said:


> He's a fool for not listening to people for weeks and doing no research himself.I respect people who do research and read up,not just demand answers.Kindly refrain from insulting me,thanks son.


he is doing it here is he not?


----------



## Maximus Pullo

Kennyken said:


> No need for the attitude mate. :thumbup1:


no attitude intended mate


----------



## Fatstuff

I can feel it coming in the air tonight

Oh lord

And I've been waiting for this moment for all my life

Oh lord


----------



## Kennyken

Remember its against forum rules to offend each other.......

Any guilty partys will be banned


----------



## GolfDelta

Maximus Pullo said:


> he is doing it here is he not?


If you class research as a 'make a cycle for me despite me knowing fvck all about steroids' thread then yes I suppose he is.Not my idea of research.


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## yannyboy

Fatstuff said:


> Aus u say there is no evidence on winny being hard on joints, my joints were in agony when I used it. Why is that as I would of liked to use it properly as the strength was amazing !!


I had bad joints when I last used winny as well


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## GolfDelta

Oh no Maximus Pillock is bigger than me!I reckon my dad would beat up yours in a fight though.....grow up.


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## C.Hill

Maximus Pullo said:


> Nope never done it C.Hill. I am in the process of getting it all sorted. http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/steroid-testosterone-information/181321-first-test-e-dbol-cycle-hgc-pct.html
> 
> Why? Do you disagree that i called that guy a d***? Why do idiots come on here and call people "fool" "chump" that guys has insulted him twice. Whats his problem. I have never done roids and im bigger then him. maybe i should start calling him names.
> 
> OP, if you decide not to do it mate that's fine, ignore the twits like golfdelta


Hope it goes well mate  I'll Have a look in that thread.

I do disagree that you called gdelta a dìck yes, but it dont really matter what I think lol insult others if you want mate, the mods will catch up lol


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## C.Hill

GolfDelta said:


> Oh no Maximus Pillock is bigger than me!I reckon my dad would beat up yours in a fight though.....grow up.


'my dads bigger than your dad!!  '


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## BigTrev

No offense taken of anything Ausbuilt stated on here he clearly knows his stuff tho i differ when it comes to teens on aas just.It clear to see that 18 year old guy isnt ready as he is now not taking them after going on he was for doing it.Anyway a good debate and thats what the forum is all about.


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## Maximus Pullo

GolfDelta said:


> Oh no Maximus Pillock is bigger than me!I reckon my dad would beat up yours in a fight though.....grow up.


Golfdelta, this aint about dads  This is about me being bigger than u even though u are on roids LMAO! And its about u calling a newbie a fool!


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## C.Hill

@ausbuilt I still can't understand why there is no studies showing winnys effect on joints? Winstrol is notorious for killing people's joints, mine joints felt like bones were rubbing against each other lol


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## Maximus Pullo

BigTrev said:


> No offense taken of anything Ausbuilt stated on here he clearly knows his stuff tho i differ when it comes to teens on aas just.It clear to see that 18 year old guy isnt ready as he is now not taking them after going on he was for doing it.Anyway a good debate and thats what the forum is all about.


tbh mate, liver aside, i just dont think many teens are ready for it in terms of mind state and training experience


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## Kennyken

Maximus Pullo said:


> Golfdelta, this aint abotu dads  This is about me being bigger than u even though u are on roids LMAO! And its about u calling a newbie a fool!


Whats roids????


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## C.Hill

Maximus Pullo said:


> Golfdelta, this aint abotu dads  This is about me being bigger than u even though u are on roids LMAO! And its about u calling a newbie a fool!


16.5 stone at 5'10 is big mate!! Any pics??

What does it matter if your bigger than others? Does it make you better than them?

Pics


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## Maximus Pullo

C.Hill said:


> 16.5 stone at 5'10 is big mate!! Any pics??
> 
> What does it matter if your bigger than others? Does it make you better than them?
> 
> Pics


nah mate i am 15stone. i wanna hot 16.5 you can add me on Facebook for pics if u want bud

YOU ARE MISSING THE POINT! this golfdelta kid was calling the op a "fool" and a "chump"! I like to stick up for the op.


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## C.Hill

Maximus Pullo said:


> nah mate i am 15stone. i wanna hot 16.5 you can add me on Facebook for pics if u want bud


Sorry must have read someone else's post lol ain't got Facebook mate, just an avi lol


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## Kennyken

Neg stick ??


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## Maximus Pullo

C.Hill said:


> Sorry must have read someone else's post lol ain't got Facebook mate, just an avi lol


yeah i need to get some pics up.

Also you need to know i only said that to golfgeek because he insulted the op on 2 occasions "chump" "dick" i mean whats his problem?


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## GolfDelta

Maximus Pullo said:


> Golfdelta, this aint about dads  This is about me being bigger than u even though u are on roids LMAO! And its about u calling a newbie a fool!


WTF are you talking about?I am 15.6 stone and 5.11" and have not been on cycle for about 6 months,my avi was taken about a week and a half ago and I have only been able to train in my house with 25kg dumbells and an eezee bar of 45kg due to snapping my Achilles tendon twice since November and having 2 operations,I am more than happy with my current physique considering the sh!t i've had to endure training wise with a plaster/moon boot on for the last 7 months!I could not care less about how big you are i train for myself.


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## Hotdog147

GolfDelta said:


> WTF are you talking about?I am 15.6 stone and 5.11" and have not been on cycle for about 6 months,my avi was taken about a week and a half ago and I have only been able to train in my house with 25kg dumbells and an eezee bar of 45kg due to snapping my Achilles tendon twice since November and having 2 operations,*I am more than happy with my current physique *considering the sh!t i've had to endure training wise with a plaster/moon boot on for the last 7 months!I could not care less about how big you are i train for myself.


So you should be, good luck with recovery mate


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## Maximus Pullo

GolfDelta said:


> WTF are you talking about?I am 15.6 stone and 5.11" and have not been on cycle for about 6 months,my avi was taken about a week and a half ago and I have only been able to train in my house with 25kg dumbells and an eezee bar of 45kg due to snapping my Achilles tendon twice since November and having 2 operations,I am more than happy with my current physique considering the sh!t i've had to endure training wise with a plaster/moon boot on for the last 7 months!I could not care less about how big you are i train for myself.


Good for you man. I am very happy for you and your figure  Can you maybe not insult people next time? Maybe instead give positive criticism.

This was never about who is bigger than who. I am just getting sick of people like you calling people names


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## GolfDelta

Hotdog147 said:


> So you should be, good luck with recovery mate


Thanks very much mate appreciated,have some reps,good members like yourself deserve them!


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## Maximus Pullo

GolfDelta said:


> Thanks very much mate appreciated,have some reps,good members like yourself deserve them!


yeah, hotdog deserves reps, he is very helpful and does nt call people names even if they are nooby. I know this first hand


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## GolfDelta

Maximus Pullo said:


> Good for you man. I am very happy for you and your figure  Can you maybe not insult people next time? Maybe instead give positive criticism.
> 
> This was never about who is bigger than who. I am just getting sick of people like you calling people names


You clearly haven't seen all my posts in response to the OP,I tried to help him at first and was ignored because he wasn't getting the answers he wanted.Don't talk to me about insults considering what you've directed at me!


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## Huntingground

Fullhouse said:


> 3g test pw
> 
> 1g tren pw
> 
> 100mg dbol ed first and last 4 weeks
> 
> 100mg oxy ed first and last 4 weeks


You forgot the 1G mast pw, 30iu Lantus ed and 20iu HGH ed.


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## Natty.Solider

Maximus Pullo - Pictures? If you were bigger than golfdelta natty id be impressed. Im holding 16.2 stone natural having never touched anything. Id like to hold 16.5 completely shredded though.


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## Maximus Pullo

Natty.Solider said:


> Maximus Pullo - Pictures? If you were bigger than golfdelta natty id be impressed. Im holding 16.2 stone natural having never touched anything. Id like to hold 16.5 completely shredded though.


lol, im not 16.5 stone mate  i am 15 stone. I said i wanna be 16.5.

how tall are you? I would love to hold weight at 16.5 naturally.


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## Guest

GolfDelta said:


> He's a fool for not listening to people for weeks and doing no research himself.I respect people who do research and read up,not just demand answers.Kindly refrain from insulting me,thanks son.


You tell him girl friend xoxo


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## Natty.Solider

"Golfdelta, this aint about dads  This is about me being bigger than u even though u are on roids LMAO! And its about u calling a newbie a fool!"

I wasnt talking about that, I was talking about what you said ^


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## Guest

Maximus Pullo said:


> Good for you man. I am very happy for you and your figure  Can you maybe not insult people next time? Maybe instead give positive criticism.
> 
> This was never about who is bigger than who. I am just getting sick of people like you calling people names


Come on Mr Maximus. You've said your a beast now prove it! Get some pictures up!


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## Maximus Pullo

Jd123 said:


> Come on Mr Maximus. You've said your a beast now prove it! Get some pictures up!


You have facebook bud?


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## Maximus Pullo

Natty.Solider said:


> "Golfdelta, this aint about dads  This is about me being bigger than u even though u are on roids LMAO! And its about u calling a newbie a fool!"
> 
> I wasnt talking about that, I was talking about what you said ^


Well he was insulting someone so i thought i would put things into perspective for him.


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## Guest

Put em on ere lad


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## GolfDelta

Maximus Pullo said:


> Well he was insulting someone so i thought i would put things into perspective for him.


You insulted me too so why are you on your high horse?It putting nothing in perspective at all for me,as I've already said i don't care if you're bigger than me lol,plenty of people are on here and in real life,as i also already said i'm happy with my physique.I don't know why you have got so upset that I insulted the OP,then you insulted me so you're a hypocrite.


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## Natty.Solider

You can attatch pictures onto posts here.

Ausbuilt, if you are still here. For a non bodybuilding type such as myself, do you think I would be able to hold onto an extra 10-15kg lean body mass? Ive always been very interested in this subject. My aim is not to get massive, its simply to look well proportioned. Being very tall this is incredibly hard to do naturally. Proportions Im going for are body types such a greg plitt, the harrison twins etc... (Basically fitness model type physique; dont hold it against me :whistling: ) I will provide links so I dont put massive pictures in here, incase you dont know what they look like.

http://www.nowhavefun.com/celebritypictures/d/158656-1/217+Greg+Plitt+picture.jpg

http://lh5.ggpht.com/-9Xmn4-mLJCQ/T10iSzDg1GI/AAAAAAAARK4/vWviHlEBuTM/HARRISON%252520TWINS%2525202%25255B3%25255D.jpg

Do you think that lean body mass you are able to retain is proportional to height to an extent? Although Im not really small now, Id be very bummed out if I wasnt able to retain a lean 105kg off cycle with constant training and a staple diet.


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## Fatstuff

Serious baiting goin on!!


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## Kennyken

Maximus Pullo said:


> You have facebook bud?


pics or noripped ??


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## Maximus Pullo

GolfDelta said:


> You insulted me too so why are you on your high horse?It putting nothing in perspective at all for me,as I've already said i don't care if you're bigger than me lol,plenty of people are on here and in real life,as i also already said i'm happy with my physique.I don't know why you have got so upset that I insulted the OP,then you insulted me so you're a hypocrite.


i am not bigger than you honey, i was just angry that u insulted the newbie


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## big steve

a interesting thread ruined imo


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## Maximus Pullo

Kennyken said:


> pics or noripped ??


add me on face book


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## Fatstuff

Troll


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## Maximus Pullo

Fatstuff said:


> Troll


i am a troll because i told someone not to call people names? what kind of challenged person are you?


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## GolfDelta

Maximus Pullo said:


> i am a troll because i told someone not to call people names? what kind of challenged person are you?


Think he was perhaps referring to the picture you posted.How can you ask someone 'what kind of challenged person are you' whilst moaning about other people being insulting to members?Complete hypocrite,your attitude stinks.


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## GolfDelta

Cheers for the abusive PM written in capitals Maximus.


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## C.Hill

GolfDelta said:


> Cheers for the abusive PM written in capitals Maximus.


PASTE IT!!


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## Natty.Solider

GolfDelta said:


> Cheers for the abusive PM written in capitals Maximus.


Lmfao! What did it say? Guy has a bad attitude


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## GolfDelta

Natty.Solider said:


> Lmfao! What did it say? Guy has a bad attitude


He was just being kind enough to recommend I fvck myself,me being a self righteous [email protected] he felt this was my best course of action.We need more people like him around UKM to dish out advice like this :thumb:


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## ausbuilt

Fatstuff said:


> Aus u say there is no evidence on winny being hard on joints, my joints were in agony when I used it. Why is that as I would of liked to use it properly as the strength was amazing !!


This is truly one of the biggest myths in BB. Lets look at the structure and make up of a joint:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joint

You will notice under joint disorders, there is nothing under "drugs' or "hormones" causing joint issues. Further, look at the main force bearing areas:

1. articular cartilage

2. synovial fluid

the 2nd is the most common in humans:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synovial_joint

you will see the primary factor keeping friction at bay is synovial fluid:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synovial_fluid

you will also notice the mention of cartiledge, and what makes it up:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_II_collagen

You will notice collagen is a protein.

What does all the above mean?? it means that ANY AAS will HELP your joints NOT cause an issue.... as ALL AAS will retain Nitrogen, that makes up the amino acid group, that are the building blocks of ALL proteins.

You will also notice from the above, that tendon strenght, and muscle tone affect synovial joint stability- the issue with winstrol in particular is that there is a fast and massive strength increase- however tendon strength does not increase as much. Some athletes doing plyometrics (sprinters etc) rupture their achilles and patellar tendons for this reason....

From the above I hope all can see there is NO SUCH THING AS "DRY JOINTS" from stanozolol:

Agents Actions 1994 Mar;41(1-2):37-43

The differential effects of stanozolol on human skin and synovial fibroblasts in vitro: DNA synthesis and receptor binding.

Ellis AJ, Cawston TE, Mackie EJ.

Rheumatology Research Unit, Addenbrooke's Hospital, Cambridge, UK.

The anabolic steroid stanozolol stimulates the production of prostaglandin E2 (PGE2) and the matrix metalloproteinases collagenase and stromelysin in human skin fibroblasts but not in rheumatoid synovial fibroblasts. The basis for these differential responses was investigated at the levels of DNA synthesis and steroid receptor binding. Stanozolol inhibited fibroblast growth factor (FGF)-stimulated DNA synthesis in both the skin and synovial fibroblasts, showing that both cell types were capable of responding to the compound. Competitive binding assays indicated that stanozolol bound specifically to both the skin and synovial fibroblasts. Binding of stanozolol to both cell types could be partially displaced by progesterone, indicating that stanozolol binds to the progesterone receptor. Immunocytochemical studies confirmed the presence of progesterone receptors on skin and synovial fibroblasts. However, progesterone failed to elicit any response with respect to collagenase production in either cell type. Nortestosterone, dexamethasone and 17 beta-oestradiol had no effect on binding of stanozolol to either cell type. These results indicate that the inhibition of DNA synthesis by stanozolol is elicited through the progesterone receptor. The effects of stanozolol on collagenase and PGE2 production are mediated by a different receptor, present on skin but not synovial fibroblasts, and as yet unidentified.



luther1 said:


> Iirc deca while on cycle combats joint pain,as does fish oil and fats


look at the above article. From that perspective deca may help joints owing to the progesterone receptors in synovial fluid.... but here's the thing... stanozolol (winny) is also know to weakly bind to progesterone receptors....



Maximus Pullo said:


> Maybe is has not been proved in a lab but if 8 put of 10 people get achy joints on winny then its pretty clear that it causes achy joints.


there is nothing new here. AAS have been studied since the 50s, with the most development in the 60s; their effects have been studied and are well known- and there is no evidence of winny causing joint issues, for the same reason there is nothing to show deca helps joints, as deca does not increase synovlal fluid production (and winny doesnt decrease it)


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## Hotdog147

Looks like Max got banned!


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## SATANSEVILTWIN

IGotTekkers said:


> 10% bf on 4000 cals a day? You must be doing a ****load of regular cardio!
> 
> If you don't want pain of needle, just run dbol on its own for 12 weeks at 350mg per day.


does anyone know someone that has run a cycle like this?


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## Kimball

Maximus Pullo said:


> Maybe is has not been proved in a lab but if 8 put of 10 people get achy joints on winny then its pretty clear that it causes achy joints.


Have you considered that muscle strength is growing too fast and putting too much stress on joints and more importantly ligaments and tendons? I got this before I even tried an aas and wasn't even on creatine

Don't see how aas could have any effect on joints.


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## C.Hill

Kimball said:


> Don't see how aas could have any effect on joints.


Run winstrol or superdrol mate, your joints will be creaking. It's horrible.


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## ausbuilt

BigTrev said:


> No offense taken of anything Ausbuilt stated on here he clearly knows his stuff tho i differ when it comes to teens on aas just.It clear to see that 18 year old guy isnt ready as he is now not taking them after going on he was for doing it.Anyway a good debate and thats what the forum is all about.


I don't disagree with you when it comes to maturity, knowledge, approach to training (and diet). The OP is an immature GIT obviously, and you're 100% right, he probably shouldnt use it for many reasons- and this is enough- there's no need for scare tactics of liver failure etc, as the evidence is not there, and repeating stuff that is plainly not true doesn't help anyone.

AAS are pretty safe as drugs go- certainly more so than alcohol and paracetamol as examples, however I do agree that the OP (and many others his age) have unrealistic expectations of results as well as a lack of dedication and direction to make use of the benefits, to make the potential side effects worthwhile (I also say that ALL drugs have side effects- just depends on what you think is worth dealing with for the results).



C.Hill said:


> @ausbuilt I still can't understand why there is no studies showing winnys effect on joints? Winstrol is notorious for killing people's joints, mine joints felt like bones were rubbing against each other lol


see my previous post. There are studies, just no evidence for winny causing issues..


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## C.Hill

ausbuilt said:


> I don't disagree with you when it comes to maturity, knowledge, approach to training (and diet). The OP is an immature GIT obviously, and you're 100% right, he probably shouldnt use it for many reasons- and this is enough- there's no need for scare tactics of liver failure etc, as the evidence is not there, and repeating stuff that is plainly not true doesn't help anyone.
> 
> AAS are pretty safe as drugs go- certainly more so than alcohol and paracetamol as examples, however I do agree that the OP (and many others his age) have unrealistic expectations of results as well as a lack of dedication and direction to make use of the benefits, to make the potential side effects worthwhile (I also say that ALL drugs have side effects- just depends on what you think is worth dealing with for the results).
> 
> see my previous post. There are studies, just no evidence for winny causing issues..


Yes I saw them. Thanks.

Why do You reckon it hurts some people's joints then? Superdrol had me in serious pain with shoulder joints, was agony at night or training sometimes!


----------



## yannyboy

I had horrendous knee and hip pains when I went on winny


----------



## Pitbull999

Please mate, don't do this....you are 18 and have loads of test flowing through your body....just eat well and train and you will get good gains....you should not take them until you are at least 25...


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## Guest

I'm not adding you on facebook. For all I know you could be a 50 year pedo trying to bait me for my sweet ass.

Post them on here you pu55y


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## ausbuilt

yannyboy said:


> I had horrendous knee and hip pains when I went on winny


how do you know it was winny? Of course you had pharma winny too.. and knew what you where taking..



Pitbull999 said:


> Please mate, don't do this....you are 18 and have loads of test flowing through your body....just eat well and train and you will get good gains....you should not take them until you are at least 25...


why mate? what magically happens at 25? other than a 2%/decade decline in natural test level? LOL


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## Josh21

Hey guys im looking for a cycle to do as it's my first just trying to find out some information on them and keep researching to see which one is best for me what do you think? Looking to build lean mass but main goal is strength. I'm 19, 6ft 5 and 17st10 around 113kg cheers


----------



## IGotTekkers

Josh21 said:


> Hey guys im looking for a cycle to do as it's my first just trying to find out some information on them and keep researching to see which one is best for me what do you think? Looking to build lean mass but main goal is strength. I'm 19, 6ft 5 and 17st10 around 113kg cheers


I think you should start your own thread mate rather than hijacking an old one.


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## huarache

Jd123 said:


> I'm not adding you on facebook. For all I know you could be a 50 year pedo trying to bait me for my sweet ass.
> 
> Post them on here you pu55y


Haha jokessss


----------

