# Carb Back Loading...FAQ



## J.Smith (Jul 7, 2011)

For all that have read the Ebook posted by Powerhouse or Ausbuilt....thought it might be useful to have somewhere that we can all help each other out.

I've tried to join the dangerouslyhardcore forum which talks about the diet a lot...but for some reason im not getting an activation email through.

Got some questions to ask myself so hopefullly there will have been a few people that have read the book!

Thanks.

J


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## Jim78 (Aug 20, 2010)

Bump interested in this too! Particularly how ppl are setting out their diets.


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## NorthernSoul (Nov 7, 2011)

My first thought would be for myself of over eating to many carbs after your work out. Most peoples aims would to be slam in as much carbs as possible and in favour to simple carbs or junk food if you want because your muscles prefer that over complex carbs. There must be a limit of how many carbs your muscles or body needs which will suffice but I think I heard aus or someone say they sometimes go to a take away after the gym and order 2 burgers and 2 large fries and if it was me id surely add a chocolate shake in there as well but wouldnt that be intaking more than the body needs then leading to just fat gain? I know we aren't scared of putting a little fat on, on cycle but this carb back loading at night would most likely put abit more than a little fat on me. I'd love to try it but the fat gain holds me back but if I am wrong #I'd probably be more inclined to try it out. Might just stick with the bowl of asdas own choco squares after the gym as my simple carb load up without enough info for now....altho this is what the thread is for obv!


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## PHMG (Jun 15, 2010)

Just like anything, you need to be selective in how you do it, i over ate, put on fat and then didnt give it a chance because of my spasticated irrational thought process.

Remember people, there are more carb friendly forms of "junk food" and there are more fat ridden ones too. You can be smart in your food choices, not an excuse to eat any old crap.


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## NorthernSoul (Nov 7, 2011)

PowerHouseMcGru said:


> Just like anything, you need to be selective in how you do it, i over ate, put on fat and then didnt give it a chance because of my spasticated irrational thought process.
> 
> Remember people, there are more carb friendly forms of "junk food" and there are more fat ridden ones too. You can be smart in your food choices, not an excuse to eat any old crap.


SITP - Yeah, I've heard of that desease.

Tbh I thought that was the whole point of the diet, "eating any old crap". Just couldn't get my head around how it would work though so I think your experiance proves a point for us. I think just a small portion of simple carbs to restore the glycogen then just get back on track with the whole clean diet.


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## J.Smith (Jul 7, 2011)

True....the book does also give you a guideline of fat allowances in the back load..mine is about 35-40g....and 5g of that will be fish oil...so i deffo wont be ordering like large fries and burgers...haha. WAY to much fat.

I will be following the "Strength Accumulation" version.

Ill chime in more with what ive discovered from reading the book so far.


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## empzb (Jan 8, 2006)

Juic3Up said:


> *My first thought would be for myself of over eating to many carbs after your work out.* Most peoples aims would to be slam in as much carbs as possible and in favour to simple carbs or junk food if you want because your muscles prefer that over complex carbs. There must be a limit of how many carbs your muscles or body needs which will suffice but I think I heard aus or someone say they sometimes go to a take away after the gym and order 2 burgers and 2 large fries and if it was me id surely add a chocolate shake in there as well but wouldnt that be intaking more than the body needs then leading to just fat gain? I know we aren't scared of putting a little fat on, on cycle but this carb back loading at night would most likely put abit more than a little fat on me. I'd love to try it but the fat gain holds me back but if I am wrong #I'd probably be more inclined to try it out. Might just stick with the bowl of asdas own choco squares after the gym as my simple carb load up without enough info for now....altho this is what the thread is for obv!


Good luck. Following his plan, I need to hammer down 700g of carbs post workout. It's not as easy as it sounds. If you've tried it, you'll understand. I also go for semi quality of products, so instead of takeaway burgers, I'll make my own patties as they're much meatier, that's 300g of meat minimum. Then for arguments sake say 30g carbs in a bun, 2 buns is only 60g carbs. Regular fries at McDonals again are about 30g carbs, so 60g carbs if you're doubling up. That's only 120g carbs, and I'm sure by this point you'll be feeling quite full already.

What I am trying to do is, and whether right or not I don't know but.

Train: 6 until 7.

After training: 7.15. Lucozade 330ml, with 6g creatine and 40g whey.

Meal @ 8. 1 steak (150g once trimmed) finely sliced with 60g chorizo (or a burger pattie) (or stir fry chicken) etc etc + 40g whey.

Carb wise: 200g ice cream. 100g marshmallows. 3 mince/fruit pies. Couple of chocolate bars. Pint of Milk. 2 cookies (someotimes heat and put Icecream on it). 40g haribo.

This still isn't quite there for carbs either but getting better.

With regards to gaining fat, from what is said in the e-book, it is impossible to put on fat after training. Also - you'll be in keto to start after a 10 day deplete, due to the no carbs you're body won't be used to using carbs as a fuel source so will burn them off rather than revert to carbs as a fuelling source. That's my interpretation anyway. You're also starting the day without any fuel, be it fat, or carbs, relying on caffiene (a fat burner) to carry you through - similar to IF.

May be wrong, but this is how I interpret it. I've not followed the diet well though, 1 because I can't get enough carbs in. And 2. I've been busy moving house so gym and diet has slipped but come new year I hope to be back on track with it once I've settled in properly.

If done wrong, you will put weight on quickly though. This last week, my midsection has expanded quickly from not training properly, and following an on/off CBL without depleting.


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## empzb (Jan 8, 2006)

Juic3Up said:


> SITP - Yeah, I've heard of that desease.
> 
> Tbh I thought that was the whole point of the diet, "eating any old crap". Just couldn't get my head around how it would work though so I think your experiance proves a point for us. I think just a small portion of simple carbs to restore the glycogen then just get back on track with the whole clean diet.


It's not just about restoring glycogen though. It's also about utilising insulin spikes so that you're insulin resistence becomes less resistant (I think that's right - happy to be corrected) as you're not giving your body a constant carb feed, so that you spike insulin at it's most needed times (eg after training to get protein in to your muscles more effectively.)

Hope I'm correct with what I'm saying, not read the book for over a month and skimmed certain parts :lol:


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## Fatstuff (Mar 2, 2010)

For this to work u need to do it to the letter imo, im not regimented enough to do it that way but it was an interesting read and its an interesting concept. Could easily fcuk it up and get fat though if u half ar5e it!!


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## Bull Terrier (May 14, 2012)

I've started CBL this week. Check out this link:

http://www.seanhyson.com/blog/backloading-faq

You'll see that the recommendations for carb intake are MUCH lower than in ebook! I'm going with 1.5g/lb of bodyweight and I'll adjust up/down as necessary.

Other good links:

http://www.seanhyson.com/blog/carb-backloading-qs-kiefer-as-part-i

http://www.seanhyson.com/blog/carb-backloading-qa-part-ii

http://www.seanhyson.com/blog/backloading-interview-w-kiefer-part-iii

Also, I think it should be said that some of the food items he recommends, i.e. ice cream, are in fact normally medium GI. Thus in my opinion better not to exagerate with quantities.

I eat short-grain white rice, potatoes, white bread for my high GI carbs in evening.

Too early to say results - need to allow more time.


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## Bull Terrier (May 14, 2012)

You can really tell that Kiefer is American.

Accelerator Shake, Ignition Formula, Sustainer, Hypertrophic Potentiator.

F.ucking hell...:no:


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## J.Smith (Jul 7, 2011)

When i start this is roughly what i need to follow...

900Calories before my backload starts Post workout + around 35g fat in my backload with about 5-600g Carbs.

So..

*8am* - Accelerator shake - 10g whey isolate, coffee, 400mg caffeine. teaspoon mct oil,

*10am* - 200g Steak Mince Xlean patties -green veg, 3g fish oil + 5g creatine and 5g leucine

*11am* - Accelerator shake

*1pm* - 60g whey concentrate, 1tbsp mct oil, 3g fish oil, 5g greens powder + 5g creatine and 5g leucine

*4.00pm -* 200g Steak mince, xlean patties, green veg, 3g fish oil

*5.00 pm *- Accelerator shake + 5g creatine.

Train from 5.30pm - 6.30pm ( still considering adding in an intra workout drink as he says for maximum fat loss dont...but i just want to drop some fat..so will use to start. Will be 20g BBW Excel and 1/2 Scoop VPX Synthesize)

*6.45pm* - 60g BBW Performance protein, has the blend plus creatine and extra leucine. + 1 banana and 30g dextrose (70g carbs ish)

*8.00pm* - 10g whey isolate,5g creatine and 5g leucine *THEN *200g chicen breast in a tomato sauce + 100g white rice. 1 banana. 1 bag harribo, 3g fish oil

*10.00pm* - 10g whey isolate,5g creatine and 5g leucine *THEN* 200g chicken breast in a tomato sauce + 100g white rice. Pack rice cakes/bag harribo. 3g fish oil.

I need about 600g carbs and theres 150ish in the bag of harribo...so that will put me pretty close.

He also recommends having 10g whey isolate, 5g leucine before my last 2 meals also and also include 5g creatine...although im not sure whether ill do this yet as just seems faffing about.

White bread would/ cereal would probably be a much cheaper way to keep my costs down for carbs...so Im guessing a big bowl of like coco pops can still be used to make up the carbs?


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## Bull Terrier (May 14, 2012)

So far I haven't bothered with the smaller parts of system, i.e. leucine, MCTs, various and sundry shakes.

I want to see if it works without. If it works without it may work better with. If it doesn't work without, I doubt the above will make it work.


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## J.Smith (Jul 7, 2011)

He says to use Whey isolate so it doesnt create that huge insulin spike....do you think BCAA's could work as a replacement? just Whey Isolate is soo expensive.

What you do you think @ausbuilt


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## eezy1 (Dec 14, 2010)

could someone post up the basic principles behind this carb back loading

make it nice and basic for me :thumb:


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## NorthernSoul (Nov 7, 2011)

empzb said:


> It's not just about restoring glycogen though. It's also about utilising insulin spikes so that you're insulin resistence becomes less resistant (I think that's right - happy to be corrected) as you're not giving your body a constant carb feed, so that you spike insulin at it's most needed times (eg after training to get protein in to your muscles more effectively.)
> 
> Hope I'm correct with what I'm saying, not read the book for over a month and skimmed certain parts :lol:


Well yeah thats exactly what I meant. Restore your glycogen first with the minimum amount of simple carbs to not cause any fat gain which will spike insulin anyway and then carry on consuming carbs which are more complex.


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## PHMG (Jun 15, 2010)

Juic3Up said:


> SITP - Yeah, I've heard of that desease.
> 
> Tbh I thought that was the whole point of the diet, "eating any old crap". Just couldn't get my head around how it would work though so I think your experiance proves a point for us. I think just a small portion of simple carbs to restore the glycogen then just get back on track with the whole clean diet.


you could eat anything and still gain, but why when you can be selective. i think the whole idea of eating any crap is just a gimmick so people are lured into it.

burger and chips, do your own and its awesome and clean.

pizza, thin crust and not dripping in cheese.

sugared doughnuts and far better choice than cookies for instance.

see what im getting at?


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## NorthernSoul (Nov 7, 2011)

I get you. Oven chips > McDonalds, Stone Baked > Dominos. I understand you but I also think it's an excuse for abit of time off.

I would of thought a cookie would be better than a donut. I do like those custard filled donuts though  mmmm.


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## Fatstuff (Mar 2, 2010)

kfc > mcdonalds > kebab > haribo


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## PHMG (Jun 15, 2010)

Juic3Up said:


> I get you. Oven chips > McDonalds, Stone Baked > Dominos. I understand you but I also think it's an excuse for abit of time off.
> 
> I would of thought a cookie would be better than a donut. I do like those custard filled donuts though  mmmm.


i also thought that, but look at the nutritional info of a cookie vs a sugared doughnut. Loads of butter in the cookie so sat. fat is way up. Doughnuts really arnt that bad in moderation....but F.UCK moderation :lol: :lol:


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## Bull Terrier (May 14, 2012)

I don't have the experience with diet to back it up, but my hunch is that back load still needs to be reasonably clean to make the diet work. If you eat loads of high fat crap, I bet that the effectiveness will be reduced. Furthermore, if you go eating burgers, pizzas, fajitas, etc. there will no doubt also be medium GI stuff in there (together with loads of fat) which goes against the overall principles of the diet.

Since there is an enormous variation in recommendations of back load carb quantities I also think that it is necessary to go very much trial and error to find the correct amount.


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## Fatstuff (Mar 2, 2010)

just do carb nite and forget about it lol


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## Superhorse (May 29, 2011)

I think The Renegade Diet is a sort of clean version of Carb Back Loading


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## PHMG (Jun 15, 2010)

Juic3Up said:


> I get you. Oven chips > McDonalds, Stone Baked > Dominos. I understand you but I also think it's an excuse for abit of time off.
> 
> I would of thought a cookie would be better than a donut. I do like those custard filled donuts though  mmmm.


also, you could say its an excuse for not eating brown rice, broccoli and turkey yeah...but who the f.uck wants to do that and tbh, its not even good for gaining muscle cos rarely can people eat enough of such boring foods. very low bodyfat and 6 weeks out of a comp you are so hungry you can eat anything (so im told :lol: ...i actually did eat anything including chocolate lol) so those ridiculously clean foods are great then for dropping even more fat.


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## PHMG (Jun 15, 2010)

Bull Terrier said:


> I don't have the experience with diet to back it up, but my hunch is that back load still needs to be reasonably clean to make the diet work. If you eat loads of high fat crap, I bet that the effectiveness will be reduced. Furthermore, if you go eating burgers, pizzas, fajitas, etc. there will no doubt also be medium GI stuff in there (together with loads of fat) which goes against the overall principles of the diet.
> 
> Since there is an enormous variation in recommendations of back load carb quantities I also think that it is necessary to go very much trial and error to find the correct amount.


completely agree.


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## NorthernSoul (Nov 7, 2011)

Yeah I read in your log your being slightly less strict so you enjoy your dieting which in turn helps you grow so you don't get fed up of eating.

Actually I don't think thats the case. The effectiveness is increased with eating "crap", for a bulk that is. It just can't be done because we will get so fat obviously. I'm sure I read that somewhere.


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## johnnyg (Nov 28, 2010)

eezy1 said:


> could someone post up the basic principles behind this carb back loading
> 
> make it nice and basic for me :thumb:


finally someone like me, lost lol


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## Bull Terrier (May 14, 2012)

Well basically the idea is avoid usable carbs (potatoes, pasta, rice, etc.) up until early evening training. Just eat protein and some fat.

After training eat loads of high GI carbs (short grain rice, potatoes, white bread) and also some protein and fat.

If trying to gain muscle, then do this every day. If trying to lose fat then only on training days or else on the night of two back-to-back early morning training sessions.


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## Bull Terrier (May 14, 2012)

There are loads of bells and whistles to the system, but that's the gist of it.

Scientific principle is that body is very sensitive to insulin in the morning, so eating carbs would spike insulin which would then stop fat loss and make fat cells swell up. Body is less sensitive to insulin in evening, but after training the muscles will readily soak up nutrients and (hopefully) get bigger, whilst fat cells will be relatively insensitive to insulin thus the insulin spike caused in evening carb back load will not make you fatter.

Idea of high GI carbs is so that insulin spike is short, thus not interfering with natural growth hormone pulses at night.


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## J.Smith (Jul 7, 2011)

Is it essential to use whey isolate over whey concentrate for the accelerator shakes...got 40g concentrate split in 3shakes will give 10g protein or so and maybe 1g carb per shake...its just soo much cheaper than isolate.

He does talk a lot of 5g creatine with like every meal....surely that's excessive? Would mean like 30g or so of Creatine a day..plus if you follow his leucine guidelines would be like 30-40g leucine a day also.

Good discussion so far though!


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

Juic3Up said:


> Well yeah thats exactly what I meant. Restore your glycogen first with the minimum amount of simple carbs to not cause any fat gain which will spike insulin anyway and then carry on consuming carbs which are more complex.


you missed the point.

You work out in the evening, and you've taken caffeine, your insulin response is at its worst; you exercise to activate the GLUT 4&12 receptors, you eat post workout simple sugars- SMASH the cals! the nutrients are transferred via GLUT receptors, NOT insulin to the muscle. Fat has no GLUT activated by exercise, as fat isn't used during exericse... you can't flex fat....

You eat simple carbs so that they are all disgested and stored before going sleep; complex carbs when present in the blood stream inhibit the release of GH, so you only eat simple carbs...



PowerHouseMcGru said:


> you could eat anything and still gain, but why when you can be selective. i think the whole idea of eating any crap is just a gimmick so people are lured into it.
> 
> burger and chips, do your own and its awesome and clean.
> 
> ...


good point.



Juic3Up said:


> I get you. Oven chips > McDonalds, Stone Baked > Dominos. I understand you but I also think it's an excuse for abit of time off.
> 
> I would of thought a cookie would be better than a donut. I do like those custard filled donuts though  mmmm.


exactly, look at the protein/fat content of macdonalds big mac:

http://nutrition.mcdonalds.com/getnutrition/nutritionfacts.pdf

and now look at regular sainsburys mince:

http://www.nutracheck.co.uk/CaloriesIn/Product/09/Sainsbury%27s+British+Beef+Lean+Steak+Mince+575g

you get the carbs from the bun, but the protein which you also need from the beef patty- except in the macdonalds burger you have 29g fat, and only 25g protein....

in your own burger you have 20g protein and 11g fat per 100g (i.e macdonalds has about 1.25:1 fat to protein, your own burger will have 1:2)

I tend not to eat pizza much, as its hard to get enough protein AND carbs in, so do eat burgers and fries, aslo curries with rice. I add beer whenever i eat rice too..

It is time off, google top 10 burgers in london, I did, and regularly eat at all those places (can do for whatever place you live in).

i rely on krispy cremes and tesco cherry pies too...


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## J.Smith (Jul 7, 2011)

Good post @ausbuilt

Aus...my plan I laid out in this thread....does that look ok?

I think all the shakes will get a bit of a faff...but i guess the main thing is being consistent then evaluating?

Do you think BCAA's could be used instead of whey isolate or combined?


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## J.Smith (Jul 7, 2011)

Also....the workouts...should they be in between high and low volume....as it doesnt say to much in the book...just says low volume isn't the best idea...

Thanks


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

J.Smith said:


> Good post @ausbuilt
> 
> Aus...my plan I laid out in this thread....does that look ok?
> 
> ...


thanks.

The reason I bod pod every 4 weeks is a means of evaluating my approach.. if you can't do that, at least use mirror/tape measure/calipers and scales and judge muscle/fat gain... then change something...

BCAA are no substitute for a whole protein; they are a COMPONENT of whey...

by all means spend money on BCAAs if you want. I do one shake (post workout) and take AAS... I spend my money where it works- WHOLE FOOD and AAS.



J.Smith said:


> Also....the workouts...should they be in between high and low volume....as it doesnt say to much in the book...just says low volume isn't the best idea...
> 
> Thanks


He has a free download of his shockwave training; will upload it to drop box later; you can follow that if you like.

Personally I'm using Dorian's approach, and very happy withe progress so far.


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## Dead lee (Jul 4, 2010)

I thought any more than 10g of whey protein was a no no, until after training as it creates an insulin spike which is what your trying to avoid through the day and non backloading days up until PWO on training days.


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## ditz (Jun 5, 2012)

With regards to whey/isolate and insulin spikes.

Im sure I read that isolate was proven to spike insulin more than normal whey?

I think it was @Tinytom mentioned it, maybe he could confirm/call me a **** :lol:


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

Dead lee said:


> I thought any more than 10g of whey protein was a no no, until after training as it creates an insulin spike which is what your trying to avoid through the day and non backloading days up until PWO on training days.


yep...



ditz said:


> With regards to whey/isolate and insulin spikes.
> 
> Im sure I read that isolate was proven to spike insulin more than normal whey?
> 
> I think it was @Tinytom mentioned it, maybe he could confirm/call me a **** :lol:


it does- its why its used in the 'slin protocols that use shakes..


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