# Wendlers 531: 2 Weeks In One



## MrBishi (Mar 10, 2016)

Been doing Wendlers 531 (with BBB+assistance) the last three months during my (Test/Tren) cut, not seen two much of a drop in strength only really a drop in reps.

Seen a lot of talk about training a muscle twice a week, so I started a little experiment. I'm now doing just the main lifts two per day with First Set Last.

So I do Deadlifts & Military Press, next day Squats & Bench Press, then a rest day, and then repeat.

I've only done a week 3 & week 4 (deload) this week,and it only takes about half an hour to get through which feels wrong.

Anybody else tried this or similar?


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## 38945 (Nov 23, 2013)

If you are doing a true Amrap with 85%, 90% or 95% of your max you should be so tired you'd struggle to do it a second time in a week. Wouldn't be sustainable IMO


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## Jordan08 (Feb 17, 2014)

A much better option would be to fit 531 in PPL routine.


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## MrBishi (Mar 10, 2016)

RS86 said:


> If you are doing a true Amrap with 85%, 90% or 95% of your max you should be so tired you'd struggle to do it a second time in a week. Wouldn't be sustainable IMO


 It's only the last set on Wendlers that's AMRAP, so when you add a First Set Last it's that one that you do AMRAP.

Your most likely right though, I'll see how next week goes :thumb


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## MrBishi (Mar 10, 2016)

Jatin Bhatia said:


> A much better option would be to fit 531 in PPL routine.


 So that would look something like...

Day One: Bench, Military

Day Two: Deadlifts

Day Three: Squats

Not sure about doing two heavy presses on the same day tho, but it might work a little better as it's spread out more.


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## 38945 (Nov 23, 2013)

MrBishi said:


> It's only the last set on Wendlers that's AMRAP, so when you add a First Set Last it's that one that you do AMRAP.
> 
> Your most likely right though, I'll see how next week goes :thumb


 Curious to see how you get on tbh but I would burn out fast without the rest between workouts


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## MrBishi (Mar 10, 2016)

See the thing is, with the Stronglifts program you do squats 3-4 times a week, and would do some of the other compound lifts twice a week as well.

I think the biggest problem I'm going to run into is the fact I'm cutting at about a 1000-1500 calorie deficit.


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## Quackerz (Dec 19, 2015)

Jatin Bhatia said:


> A much better option would be to fit 531 in PPL routine.


 Burnout city, you can't really increase the frequency when training at those percentages with that intensity IMHO. You'd recover fine from a muscular perspective but it's the neutral fatigue that would wear you down. You can argue that people do train heavy every day i.e. Bulgarian type training but what needs to be factored in is that they never work with true maxes whereas 5/3/1 will have you working up to heavy sets at a near maximal RPE. To quote Jim it's best 'to not f**k with the program'.


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## swole troll (Apr 15, 2015)

Wendler designed the template to be adaptable to assistance

If you f**k with the template you're not doing 531

Just do 5x5 with a close varisnt of the opposite lift on each day so if you squat 531 then do block pulls for 3x5 and if you ohp 531 then do 3x5 close grip bench or dumbbells


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## Jordan08 (Feb 17, 2014)

Quackerz said:


> Burnout city, you can't really increase the frequency when training at those percentages with that intensity IMHO. You'd recover fine from a muscular perspective but it's the neutral fatigue that would wear you down. You can argue that people do train heavy every day i.e. Bulgarian type training but what needs to be factored in is that they never work with true maxes whereas 5/3/1 will have you working up to heavy sets at a near maximal RPE. To quote Jim it's best 'to not f**k with the program'.


 How I would do it without wrecking the program :-

Monday :- Bench with 531 approach with shoulder raises as secondary exercises.

Wednesday :- Deadlift and one more back exercise.

Friday :- Squats plus some hamstring work

Saturday :- OHP with some chest exercises (where rep ranges would be from 10-12)

Now when next time I would be hitting push, Chest would be done with 531 approach again with few shoulder raises and so on.

There will be a gap of around 7 days between two compound workouts for the same bodypart.


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## Quackerz (Dec 19, 2015)

Jatin Bhatia said:


> How I would do it without wrecking the program :-
> 
> Monday :- Bench with 531 approach with shoulder raises as secondary exercises.
> 
> ...


 That's pretty much the layout that Wendler recommends? 4 day split, only issue with the order you have would be only having two days between deadlifts and squats. Is this what you meant by PPL? Sorry mate but I'm getting a bit confused here. You could easily add more assistance to that layout, long term it would become necessary IMHO.


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## Jordan08 (Feb 17, 2014)

Quackerz said:


> That's pretty much the layout that Wendler recommends? 4 day split, only issue with the order you have would be only having two days between deadlifts and squats. Is this what you meant by PPL? Sorry mate but I'm getting a bit confused here. You could easily add more assistance to that layout, long term it would become necessary IMHO.


 Yes exactly. Assistance work would be there. Like on bench press major day, there would be pec Dec or fly's before starting shoulder raises. Similarly, on OHP days , shoulder raises would be there before doing chest hypertrophy work. I should have written more. We both meant the same thing i guess


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## MrBishi (Mar 10, 2016)

The other way of doing each muscle group twice a week with Wendlers was two do a different days BBB & assistance work. So...

Workout A: 
531 Deadlifts+FSL & BBB Bench Press+chest assistance

Workout B: 
531 Military+FSL & BBB Deadlifts+back assistance

Workout C: 
531 Squats+FSL & BBB Military+shoulders assistance

Workout D: 
531 Bench Press+FSL & BBB Squats+leg assistance

The reason I'm trying to mess with it is I like the strength aspect but I also think that you still need a little of the bodybuilding 8-12 thrown in too.


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## Quackerz (Dec 19, 2015)

MrBishi said:


> The other way of doing each muscle group twice a week with Wendlers was two do a different days BBB & assistance work. So...
> 
> Workout A:
> 531 Deadlifts+FSL & BBB Bench Press+chest assistance
> ...


 Assistance is assistance, as long as your performance is not affected in the main lifts it shouldn't matter.


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## ausmaz (Jul 14, 2014)

Quackerz said:


> Assistance is assistance, as long as your performance is not affected in the main lifts it shouldn't matter.


 Exactly this^^^ the main lifts are ALL that matter.... as jim says 'dont try and major in the minors'....also id question the practicality of running 5/31 alongside calorie restriction, but thats probably just personal preference...


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## LJA (Dec 27, 2015)

Quackerz said:


> Burnout city, you can't really increase the frequency when training at those percentages with that intensity IMHO. You'd recover fine from a muscular perspective but it's the neutral fatigue that would wear you down. You can argue that people do train heavy every day i.e. Bulgarian type training but what needs to be factored in is that they never work with true maxes whereas 5/3/1 will have you working up to heavy sets at a near maximal RPE. To quote Jim it's best 'to not f**k with the program'.


 I agree with not fu**ing with the program but you're not working with high percentage with 5/3/1. None of the sets are heavy.


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## Quackerz (Dec 19, 2015)

LJA said:


> I agree with not fu**ing with the program but you're not working with high percentage with 5/3/1. None of the sets are heavy.


 You are aware anything over 80% really is going to be taxing on the CNS? Also as stated it has you working at a near maximum RPE session to session.

Why do you think wendlers used light weights anyway?


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## 38945 (Nov 23, 2013)

LJA said:


> I agree with not fu**ing with the program but you're not working with high percentage with 5/3/1. None of the sets are heavy.


 You work between 65% and 95% of your max at all times except deload. With exception of your first set (65,70,75% depending which week) you are always working heavy.

Have you confused 531 with something else?


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## Quackerz (Dec 19, 2015)

RS86 said:


> You work between 65% and 95% of your max at all times except deload. With exception of your first set (65,70,75% depending which week) you are always working heavy.
> 
> Have you confused 531 with something else?


 Arnold's blueprint to mass.


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## LJA (Dec 27, 2015)

RS86 said:


> You work between 65% and 95% of your max at all times except deload. With exception of your first set (65,70,75% depending which week) you are always working heavy.
> 
> Have you confused 531 with something else?


 You need to re read the book again. You're not ever doing 95% of your max. You'll be doing 95% of your training max but not your max. You're not using heavy weights when doing 5/3/1. The program is submaximal


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## LJA (Dec 27, 2015)

Quackerz said:


> You are aware anything over 80% really is going to be taxing on the CNS? Also as stated it has you working at a near maximum RPE session to session.
> 
> Why do you think wendlers used light weights anyway?


 For years Wendler has said you should be able to do 5 solid reps with your training max, which works out to be around 85%. The heaviest set you'll be doing is around 80% of your max and that's only once a month. Even if you used his original and outdated recommendation of using of using 90% of your max, the heaviest percentage would be 85%. One set at over 80% isn't much at all


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## Quackerz (Dec 19, 2015)

LJA said:


> For years Wendler has said you should be able to do 5 solid reps with your training max, which works out to be around 85%. The heaviest set you'll be doing is around 80% of your max and that's only once a month. Even if you used his original and outdated recommendation of using of using 90% of your max, the heaviest percentage would be 85%. One set at over 80% isn't much at all


 Then the weight builds up month by month numb nuts. Those are your starting weights. lol

You still need to factor in the RPE at which you are working at in regards to overall recovery also. :thumbup1:


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## LJA (Dec 27, 2015)

Quackerz said:


> Then the weight builds up month by month numb nuts. Those are your starting weights. lol
> 
> You still need to factor in the RPE at which you are working at in regards to overall recovery also. :thumbup1:


 He says you should ALWAYS be able to do 5 solid reps with your training max. If you're doing what's in the original book, you're right but Jim hasn't said to do it like that for a long time.


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## 38945 (Nov 23, 2013)

LJA said:


> You need to re read the book again. You're not ever doing 95% of your max. You'll be doing 95% of your training max but not your max. You're not using heavy weights when doing 5/3/1.


 These are direct quotes from Wendler. So 1st training cycle is based off 90% of your 1rm, subsequent training cycles will take you up to and beyond your 1rm in space of 2 months (or 2 training cycles). First week of each cycle may not be overly difficult compared to week 2 and 3.

To say you don't use heavy weights in 531 is wrong though. It's designed to be repeated not just done once for 4 weeks and I'd wager once you hit the week 3 or your 3rd 531 cycle you will be thinking "s**t this is heavy".

Whether he has reviewed this and said differently since I don't know tbh, but this was how it was designed in 2009. As you can see from the quotes he is keen to stress starting from 90% of 1rm for calculations but no reference to a training max.

"Use a specific percentage of your one-rep max to lift 5 reps, then 3 reps, then 1 rep. These percentages are based on 90% of your 1RM."

"You aren't just picking a weight to lift five times or three times or one time per set. You're using a specific percentage of your one-rep max. And not your full 1RM. The calculations are based on 90% of it."

"'Start too light' refers to my insistence that the prescribed loads are calculated off of 90% of the lifter's 1RM. If your 1RM in the bench is 315, why calculate loads off a 1RM of 285?

My response? People who freak out about the 90% thing are usually weak in the first place. You don't need to operate at your max to increase your max. Why people get so bent out of shape about taking two steps back if it means they'll be taking 10 steps forward is beyond me."


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## LJA (Dec 27, 2015)

RS86 said:


> These are direct quotes from Wendler. So 1st training cycle is based off 90% of your 1rm, subsequent training cycles will take you up to and beyond your 1rm in space of 2 months (or 2 training cycles). First week of each cycle may not be overly difficult compared to week 2 and 3.
> 
> To say you don't use heavy weights in 531 is wrong though. It's designed to be repeated not just done once for 4 weeks and I'd wager once you hit the week 3 or your 3rd 531 cycle you will be thinking "s**t this is heavy".
> 
> ...


 The training max is mentioned early on in his first book. You can't say there isn't any reference to a training max just by using random quotes..

2009 is a long time ago. Uk-muscle seems well behind when it comes to the program. I always see advice on here about 5/3/1 which i know Jim wouldn't a agree with.

I the weights feel heavy on the third cycle, you're doing it wrong. I don't know how you worked out that your training max will go above and beyond your real max in two months!

For example.

If you have a 500lb deadlift, your training max will be 450lbs. It will be the 6th cycle before you're using your original real max. I would hope you would have gained some strength during that time as well so wasn't your max now

Your press max is 200. Your training max is 180. It won't be until your 5th cycle you're using your training max catches up with your old max.


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## 38945 (Nov 23, 2013)

LJA said:


> The training max is mentioned early on in his first book. You can't say there isn't any reference to a training max just by using random quotes..
> 
> 2009 is a long time ago. Uk-muscle seems well behind when it comes to the program. I always see advice on here about 5/3/1 which i know Jim wouldn't a agree with.
> 
> ...


 I merely stated there was no reference to training max in the article I was referencing, not that he has never said it/used it.

I'd imagine he has altered the programme more than once over time as most people have (Cube for example has changed and evolved over time). That's why I felt it was relevent to reference the article being from 2009.

If you are calculating a predicted max from your week 3 Amraps to use for reprogramming the subsequent weeks you will pass that original 100% mark quickly - if you were limiting yourself by say repeating the first cycle but just adding 5kg to each lift then maybe the progress would be slower but if you are fully recalculating your %s each 4 weeks and resetting then the weight will quickly feel heavy.

Don't suppose you have any links to a more recent/updated version of 531 so I could have a read?


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## LJA (Dec 27, 2015)

RS86 said:


> I merely stated there was no reference to training max in the article I was referencing, not that he has never said it/used it.
> 
> I'd imagine he has altered the programme more than once over time as most people have (Cube for example has changed and evolved over time). That's why I felt it was relevent to reference the article being from 2009.
> 
> ...


 He has a new book out. 5/3/1 Forever. I haven't read it but the programming appears to be very different to the original. He also realised Beyond 5/3/1 a few years ago. His forum on t-nation is a good place to look.

He often says to deload after 2 cycles now instead of one. He has something called the 7th week protocol, where after 2 cycles you lift your training max to check it's right. You should be able get five reps.

I think Jim has been very poor at getting his message across. After your post I went through the book and there are stuff in there that goes against what he has been saying for long time on his forum. At least, he wasn't as clear as he should have been.


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## Quackerz (Dec 19, 2015)

CBF

@swole troll lol


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## swole troll (Apr 15, 2015)

Quackerz said:


> CBF
> 
> @swole troll lol


 Me neither lel, just had a boob job and travelled all day

Cliffs if youd be so kind and I'll give input


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## 38945 (Nov 23, 2013)

LJA said:


> He has a new book out. 5/3/1 Forever. I haven't read it but the programming appears to be very different to the original. He also realised Beyond 5/3/1 a few years ago. His forum on t-nation is a good place to look.
> 
> He often says to deload after 2 cycles now instead of one. He has something called the 7th week protocol, where after 2 cycles you lift your training max to check it's right. You should be able get five reps.
> 
> I think Jim has been very poor at getting his message across. After your post I went through the book and there are stuff in there that goes against what he has been saying for long time on his forum. At least, he wasn't as clear as he should have been.


 I'll have a read up on 531 forever. Beyond 531 rings a bell too. Thanks


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## swole troll (Apr 15, 2015)

i really dont see the issue

go run madcows if you want snappy progression but expect it to tail out quick!

you cant make strong lifts like progression indefinitely

531 is meant to be ran year round, cycle after cycle

as RS86 said if you have gas left in the tank after the AMRAP's then you are not doing 'as many reps as possible'

531 is an excellent template that is highly adaptable to literally any goal in terms of physique and performance.

like i said if you want fast progression and subsequently a solid plateau then run madcows for this cycle then get on 531 after and before long youll be AMRAPing PB's and then when you go back on cycle the progress will continue if the calories are there

(was mentioned somewhere above, deload after the 2nd cycle and then repeat, so 5,3,531,5,3,531,deload,repeat)


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