# Female AAS & Peptide use



## DB (Oct 31, 2003)

Hi All,

Seeing as alot of women seem to be in the process of dieting or looking to compete in the not too distance future I think its a good time to share some experiences with AAS, peptide and ancilleries.

I have helped women use:

Clen

ECA

T3/T4

GHRP/cjc

Deca

Npp

Winstrol (oral)

Anavar

Be interesting to see what the females ahve experienced themselves in regards to gains, BF levels, how they feel hormonally and side effects. :beer:

Please note: Any member giving derogitory comments towards females using AAS will be banned. No if's or but's.


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## Beklet (May 13, 2005)

Have you been chatting to pscarb? This is long overdue


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## DB (Oct 31, 2003)

Beklet said:


> Have you been chatting to pscarb?


no i try not too


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

it is long overdue i will be arranging a private section on my board Muscle-chat in the next 10 days as not all women want to ask questions on the open board but this is an excellent idea from Baz to create this thread......

i do echo his message though any insulting posts of any kind associated with females and drug use will be deleted and the member banned for one month.....

please if you are giving advice to those who do ask questions please do so only if you have experience of using that drug, what i don't want is to have a thread of answers from members guessing the consequences or results of these drugs......


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## Zara-Leoni (Mar 12, 2007)

If people want to ask I don't mind saying what I've used and how I found it.... but how it reacted with me may not be how it is in someone else.... eg I think I've prob used more than some girls but have suffered a remarkable lack of side effects lol.

So basically someone else doing same may not be so lucky.... or maybe could take more and still have no sides. I guess its the same with guys - some will suffer more at certain doses than others etc. 

At the moment though I'm still highly sceptical after previous experiences on here so I've no desire to list what done in past etc... however if someone comes on and asks about a particular thing I dont mind saying how I found it, if I've tried it


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## DB (Oct 31, 2003)

Have any females on here used AAS? for a reasonably length of time lets say 3-4 6-12 weeks cycles and had any problem with fertility after?

If you do experience and clit growth is it more of a swelling with goes after the cycle or is some perminant?


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## Zara-Leoni (Mar 12, 2007)

DB said:


> Have any females on here used AAS? for a reasonably length of time lets say 3-4 6-12 weeks cycles and had any problem with fertility after?
> 
> If you do experience and clit growth is it more of a swelling with goes after the cycle or is some perminant?


*1st part:*

Yes.... My first cycle was when I dieted for 1st show 2007 and was 12 weeks. In all honesty it was not all that conservative.....

Took several months off then did anavar only for 8 weeks end of that yr.

2008 did 6-8 week anavar only cycles on and off throughout the year then a more robust course end of that year for 10 weeks as was competing again in 2009.

2009 Did 4 weeks on/4 weeks off/8 weeks on reasonably robust course, for show diet then anavar only on and off rest of year. GH was used from early this year on and off too.

2010 dieting on GH and anavar only.

Fertility.... I dont THINK is an issue for me. I always get periods back quick after I come off and still ovulate from soon as they start (you can get tests to check). 2007 I did 5 days of 50mgs clomid to restart things one month after coming off AAS (as indicated for use in fertility treatment in women... induces ovulation) but have never done so since and dont think I needed to. I may just be lucky in this respect. In fact this year since ony using anavar I have been having issues still getting PMT through my diet.

*2nd part:*

My own experience and that of other girls I have spoken too is that any enlargement on cycle (usually around 10% seems to be average) about 90% goes away off cycle.

Anavar causes it slightly but IMO it causes it markedly less than other things.


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## Linny (Jun 23, 2009)

DB said:


> Have any females on here used AAS? for a reasonably length of time lets say 3-4 6-12 weeks cycles and had any problem with fertility after?
> 
> If you do experience and clit growth is it more of a swelling with goes after the cycle or is some perminant?


The cycles I use are between 10 - 12wks although when I diet for my 1st comp it'll be 15 - 20wk cycle with a good 6mths off.

Periods stop with me, sometimes drastically reduce BUT I find this too be a good thing. With my age anyway fertility is not an issue, periods always have returned to normal when cycle has stopped.

Any growth experienced does go down afterwards, sometimes only partly. Unless you take pictures before and afterwards it is unlikely to say how much it has actually grown if any.

Women come in all shapes and sizes and it will vary from person to person. Also what one woman can tolerate another may not, it is upto you to decide what the ceiling limit is to the amount you will take. Also more doesn't necessarily mean better.

*With every action there will always be a re-action. Just because you can't see side effects on the outside DOES NOT mean there are none on the inside. You are changing your genetic make up permanently.*

MOST women have to get their advise off a man. To which if it's the only option they have no choice but to.

Women need to talk to other women who have used their cycle choice, as much of it will come down to experimentation and you KNOW yourself how you feel with certain aas and if it's for you or not.

You hear an awful lot of women say 'oh no I'd never take that because so and so said' BUT one size doesn't fit all EVERYONE has a different re-action AND a different tolerance level.

You KNOW when something just isn't right for you, and you stop.

Apologies for rambling and going off onto a tangent

Women need to have access to other womens information who have ACTUALLY USED the steroid NOT hear say as it's chinese whispers and doesn't serve any purpose.

Women NEED to be able to access any information relative to the cycle they wish to use.

I will give this section of the forum 1 shot, anyone is a c0ck I will refuse to post any-more on the subject. :thumbup1:


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

To the ladies who have used, did you find the results/sides to a particular steroid different from the info you had read before using that steroid?.......?


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## mick_the_brick (Oct 29, 2008)

Nice thread Baz..

Always find this an interesting read TBH


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## DB (Oct 31, 2003)

Lin I agree with everyone reacts differently, the same applies to men some get chronic acne of certain drugs, some cant sleep on tren, labido problems etc

Lin/Zar

--What dose were you using?

--Have either of you used any drugs which really haven't agreed with you for whatever reason?

--Can anyone compare a low dose NPP cycle vrs a anavar only cycle? sides & gains?

-- What are your results like with GH? I know i've tried it a few times and found it to be pretty average for the money.


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## gym rat (Jul 10, 2007)

about time, been interested in female PED use for a long time


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## Linny (Jun 23, 2009)

DB said:


> Lin I agree with everyone reacts differently, the same applies to men some get chronic acne of certain drugs, some cant sleep on tren, labido problems etc
> 
> Lin/Zar
> 
> ...


Anavar I've dosed upto 30mg for me this is the ceiling and would not go any higher.

Winstrol 25mg ceiling

Primo 1ml - new to this but I feel this is enough especially stacked with other aas.

Winstrol & Anavar stack 15mg Anavar + 15mg Winstrol

Not used NPP yet. Can't afford GH even though I'd like too, only done 1 course of this so can't comment on benefit other than hair, nails and skin.

Only aas I've used that hasn't agreed with me is a certain ug lab for var, it deffinately wasn't var.



Pscarb said:


> To the ladies who have used, did you find the results/sides to a particular steroid different from the info you had read before using that steroid?.......?


YES most definitely Winstrol! For me no hair loss at all, no voice crack, no spots. Only adverse effect on the outside was greasy skin and greasier hair, but for me this wasn't a problem as my hair is dry anyway. Also my knees and elbows ached more than normal


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## Ser (Aug 10, 2008)

Will be reading with interest Great thread:thumb:

Have used GH, equ, deca and atm am trying out this GHRP2, only just started it though so don't have much to report yet other than the AWESOME deep sleeps i am having(i am quite a restless sleeper normally) but will comment throughout my experience.


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## Bettyboo (Jun 8, 2009)

I have used eph currently using t3/4 & clen.

I get tremors with clen, it starts around 45 minutes after I take them in the morning taking 3 x 20mg. Lasts for a few hours then wears off, also get random twitches in arms and legs, when I am relaxing in the evening. Its not uncomfortable, just a bit weirdy sensation. Im having a week off atm, i started on on 20mg for two weeks then upped it to two tabs a day then 3 tabs.

With the t3/4 when I take them no noticeable sides apart from I go to loo a few times more. Started off with 1 morning and 1 evening, now 1 in morning and 2 in evening. 20mg

With eph I get mood swings and insomnia, but this is normal for me anyway it just enhances it, and my jaw aches and i ramble for England lol. I do get slight shakes but not as much as I get with the clen. I feel thirsty within 20 mins of taking it. I cycle it at 2 x 20mg tabs week on week off. I dont stack it with Asprin as it triggers my asthma.


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

DB said:


> --Can anyone compare a low dose NPP cycle vrs a anavar only cycle? sides & gains?.


the Var cycle gives better lean tissue Baz i have had women on both individually and the Var gave better results, the NPP was good and a much better choice than Deca in my opinion but Var all the way.....



DB said:


> -- What are your results like with GH? I know i've tried it a few times and found it to be pretty average for the money.


on women the results are a little more noticeable on women than men and the dose needed much smaller many can get away with 1-2iu daily giving good results over a decent time period.....


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## Magic Torch (May 30, 2005)

Great thread, thanks for sharing girls x


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## ares1 (Apr 27, 2008)

i would be quite interested in womens experience's with T3? sides, results etc...


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## Bettyboo (Jun 8, 2009)

ares1 said:


> i would be quite interested in womens experience's with T3? sides, results etc...


I have had good weight loss on t3, cyclng it with clen and diet lost 26lb.


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## ElfinTan (May 23, 2008)

And so the ripple effect starts:thumb:

In brief - I have always been a cautious drug taker (barring my 10 years 'with God' period which is another story) and like to just test the waters rather than jumping in so -

I started with a low dose of anavar 5mgED and over the 8 weeks went up to 20mg - sides were scratchy voice and bacne, even at the lower dose. Really good noticable lean gains which stayed after coming off.

Then tried GH 1-2iu's EOD - no neg sides eg water retention etc which I am prone to, liked the all round well being and would stay on it all the time if I could afford to.

Next was anavar again but a different lab...went up to 20mg as it was what I had done the time before but it just didn't 'feel' right...so after about 5-7 days dropped right back down to 10mg and stuck there for the rest of the 8 weeks. Similar sides and gains as previous.

Prima acetate next 8 weeks (with GH I think) to be fair I can't remember the dose but is was LOW. Similar sides and gains as the var but also jawline and hairline acne which was quite sore at times, am now rather uncertain if it was what it says on the tin so am very glad about my caution on diddy doses lol.

Lastly at the end of last year I did my 1st depot of primo, 1ml E7D and really like it. Sides whilst I was on were less than anything else although the increase in libido and clitoral swelling were a 1st - not Randy Pan The Goat Girl stuff but noticible change lol. And fck me I was strong and I LOVED it - squat flew from 100kg to 140kg in a matter of weeks and DB Rows were at 110lb. Yep I like this one BUT the sides came AFTER I came off...about 4 weeks later (same as the half life I believe) and they were...voice deepening, bacne that has only just cleared up, there was also an increase of facial downy hair which did go again after my 1st period, really greasy hair and sore spots under my scalp and jawline. My voice has not returned to normal and I will never be a soprano again:whistling: But I think apart from the muscle gains the only lasting side....but when I say 'only' don't forget it is something that is impossible to hide unless I give up talking and that aint happening.

I have also done T3/4 and got really bad bizarre strong heart beats...I could literally hear the blood pumping around my body and feels the pulse in my gums....stopped asap!

I have done clen on it's on with the 2 on 2 off protocol but much preferred a lower continuous dose 60mcg along with yohimbine HCL!

My personal conclusion is I do not plan on using anything else except the above for my goals! My plan for my 1st competative years will be primo, small dose var, GH, clen & yohimbine HCL.

Each time I have tried something I have done it on it's own 1st with the exception of t3/4 which was introduced after about 6 weeks, otherwise how can you tell what is doing what???? This year will be the 1st time I will be stacking anything and they are all things I have used.

Please always be aware there is a pay off ALWAYS, I do not believe anyone that claims they have had no sides no matter HOW small, just because you haven't grown and beard and your 'bits' aren't touching your knees it doesn't mean there haven't been any.

I am no expert nor have I ever claimed to be...but I am responsible for my own body and what i do with it. Each decision has been mine and even though I am married to a pro it has been my responsibility to research for myself the effects that each substance would possibly have on me. Don't let anyone else claim to know what is best for you, your are responsible and the only one to blame if things go wrong!!!!!!


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## Andrikos (Sep 10, 2008)

I 've known a few cases of female users , one has placed really high in world level competitions , she was doing 8-10 week cycles with Primo and winstrol shots EOD , very sensible doses for her level of muscularity (she was pretty much like an olympic level female 100m sprinter).No other drugs whatsoever, not even caffeine on its' own. The sides were not extreme in her body , but in her behaviour, very aggressive and emotional at the same time. Except with one case of a woman I 've known, there was absolute ignorance on what they were injecting and everything was left to their coaches' to figure out , nutrition and training are pretty much neglected and left to chance , no medical exams etc etc. Their voices were all affected , their jaws minimally, and their clits were affected but far from Denise Masino style.

Another thing I like to add is that not only some extremely manlike female bodybuilders take anabolics , that comes from abuse of AAS, AAS are getting popular on circles outside sports , I know some Playboy bunnies use anabolics and T3 to get lean.

With that being said ,in an other thread I shared my thoughts on the androgenic effects of AAS and I ****ed off some of the women on this board. I now see some of them on this thread viewing the androgenic effects as something unwanted, not visually pleasing and as a side effect indeed.Same thing I was saying , anyway ,women, go figure


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## bigbob33 (Jan 19, 2009)

It's nice to see a candid and informative thread, I hope it stays that way as I personally believe it will benefit other women! :thumb:


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## Zara-Leoni (Mar 12, 2007)

Andrikos said:


> With that being said ,in an other thread I shared my thoughts on the androgenic effects of AAS and I ****ed off some of the women on this board. I now see some of them on this thread viewing the androgenic effects as something unwanted, not visually pleasing and as a side effect indeed.Same thing I was saying , anyway ,women, go figure


*Informing* us of the error of our ways in the other thread may have had something do do with it.....


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## DB (Oct 31, 2003)

Thanks for being so honest with the side effects tan..

I know at least 2 female aas users personally and know exactly what they took,

one was just var&winny orals at a low dose, 10mg of both -

Her condition was very good, no sides as far as bad skin but the jaw line had changed massively when compared to pictures a few years earlier.

The other used alot more AAS including test and to be honest her sides and changes were pretty similar so I guess it just varies on how the body deals with the aas from a side effect point of view.

Surely as the jawline has changed there is no way that goes down after a cycle.. Bone is bone.

seeing as GH in women is ran at such a low dose surely its worth the extra money for no sides? (except the usual water retention, joint stiffness)


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## Linny (Jun 23, 2009)

Sides for me-

Anavar slight growth in lady bit department ( hate the c word )

Winstrol same as above but I was randier than a bitch on heat, and it felt more aggresive when orgasm arose.

Primo corser hair growth and more rapid in privates and under arms, also noticed hair towards navel darkened, and hair at the outside of bikini line.

Downy hair on face also like Tan. Periods stopped. Strentgh gains through the roof in a matter of weeks also.

T3 sweats

clen really not keen on this

T5's suit me prior training seem to gain even more focus than normal


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## Uriel (Oct 14, 2008)

I don't usually come in here as it's full of creatures I don't understand and am a bit terrified of......

Just want to show a bit of support for UKM's non natty chicks. Good thread, nice to keep the dick heads out.


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## Robbyg (Feb 25, 2008)

It's a very interesting topic that we don't read about too often , I for one am very interested in how they use it .


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## Lou (Jul 27, 2008)

Well I guess I had better add my bit for the furtherment of this all too often taboo subject.....

As many of you know I train under the guidance of a great trainer Karen Marillier I do not want to give too much of her work with me away out of respect for her as she puts a great deal of thought and effort into prepping her girls. I have to state that at the forefront of every cycle that is undertaken my short and long term health is paramount.

My experience with AAS has been fairly positive I am fortunate that with the 'sensible' cycles run, I have had few sides by comparison with others. The sides I do get are mainly from Winstrol, hairloss is a bitch but when I come off cycle re-growth happens very quickly. I had very minor facial hairgrowth towards the end of my cutting cycle for the Leamington and British but with a face wax that sorted that out and have not had anything since. Clit enlargement I find is cyclical and is present whilst on cycle but reduces when off. I do get mild acne but that was normal in the run upto periods anyhow so not something entirely new to me. I am more short temepered on cycle but that has evened out as time has gone on.

Periods stop

I have not experienced the horror stories reported by the media or know nothing 'experts' or often spouted in the do-gooder commentaries found on various sites including this one....and I have used fairly moderate AAS+Peptide drugs among others

Clen

Ephedrine

T4

Boldenone

Dianabol

Anavar

Deca

Growth

Tren

Primo

Masteron

Proviron

Tamoxifen

It does take alot of thinking about when starting your first cycle....at my age there was no hesitation as fertility is really not an issue. I have three beautiful kids....I do not want any more...

I hope this thread helps all women wanting to make an informed choice to use AAS.

Lou XXX


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## FATBOY (Mar 4, 2008)

great thread,

you girls are to be commended for your honesty , to be honest i think women always go the extra mile in contest prep, hair tan make up posing even condition, i think at times the men could learn a lesson from you all


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## WILD_AMAZON1 (Jul 4, 2008)

Great thread, would rep people but I have none :-D

It's nice to see some honesty from the ladies on Ukm offering some real insight and support from the guys without any of the other nonsense that usually comes with these threads.

I personally don't have much to offer, and to date have only dabbled with the likes of clen, eph and the like for only very short periods of time because my body has next to no tolerance for this kind of thing.

And although I'm generally happy enough to just train and try to eat right I'm a curious cat and always interested in how other people meet their goals so it's made good reading so far


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## BabyYoYo (Mar 7, 2008)

Brilliant thread Baz - it's good to see something like this hitting the board as the information we need or want to ask for can sometimes be a bit sketchy.... Big up to Lin, Lou, Ser, Zar and Tan for being so candid about their individual experiences. Will definitely be keeping and eye on this one.

I'm much the same as WA -used only Clen, Eph and Yohimbe and had relatively good results with all 3 - although nothing that couldn't be done by a much better diet and a wee bit more cardio!

Don't have plans to start AAS use as I'm happy with gains I've made so far but definitely not ruling it out


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## Ser (Aug 10, 2008)

need to add have also used eph, clen, t3, t4, winny.

Am lucky to have little sides. Don't get joint pain(i have arthritis and find i have LESS joint probs:confused1: )

If anyone has any questions i'm willing to give my experiences on what i have used.

Off the top of my head: I avoid eph, am too sensitive to it-even if i take it first thing in the morning i am still awake at 3-4am:cursing:

Clen makes me tremble so i tend to stay away....last time i used it Fin was just onto solids....i made more mess than he did trying to feed him:lol: I also felt very agitated so its not really in my best interests to use it.

t3 and t4:....did lose a little bit of fat. It was only a VERY low dose that i used of each(at separate times)

Winny: not much i can say, did what it said on the tin:laugh: Switched to equ on week 3(IIRC) so not enough time to really comment imo.

Never had any issues with hair-unwanted growth or losing any.

Ladybits...were always on the large side and only a small increase when on.

Periods-STOP:thumb: :thumb: (My favourite side ) I don't even get the bloat or pain before i'm due:bounce:


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## ElfinTan (May 23, 2008)

Can I just make a point that there is no 'only' when using eph and clen!


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## Linny (Jun 23, 2009)

ElfinTan said:


> Can I just make a point that there is no 'only' when using eph and clen!


Until I researched I too thought eph and clen were just fat burners with no problems attached, and used them like smarties NOW I'm so much wiser I treat them like any other addition CAREFULLY :thumbup1: XX


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## WILD_AMAZON1 (Jul 4, 2008)

Only in the sense of "compared to others and their experiences with various things I have very limited knowledge" not only as in these don't count or are nothing to worry about.


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

ElfinTan said:


> Can I just make a point that there is no 'only' when using eph and clen!


very true Tan and this was one of the things i hopefully got across at the seminar, many believe these are "safe" drugs and i have seen some horrendouse doses used just because the sides cannot be seen it does not mean they are not there....

at the seminar i answered a few questions on Blood work can i ask do any women on here who have used any BB drug had there bloods taken if you did what where the results....if not why not??


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## Linny (Jun 23, 2009)

Pscarb said:


> very true Tan and this was one of the things i hopefully got across at the seminar, many believe these are "safe" drugs and i have seen some horrendouse doses used just because the sides cannot be seen it does not mean they are not there....
> 
> at the seminar i answered a few questions on Blood work can i ask do any women on here who have used any BB drug had there bloods taken if you did what where the results....if not why not??


Thank you for answering my questions on blood work, I was foolish enough not to get them done at the beginning.

I researched AAS but turned a foolish blind eye to the bloods being carried out.

I've chosen to do them with *http://www.thedoctorltd.co.uk/* as my doctors are archaic d!cks 

It is important to research properly and look after your body. People need to realise damage is done on the inside too, and your health is imperative.


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## ElfinTan (May 23, 2008)

Nope not had mine done either but something I will be looking in to for sure! I agree that the statement 'health over everything' but fact of the matter is that non of us are angelic my 'body is a temple' types because by default the fact that we take drugs....of any kind, is contradicting this statement. If it was health above everything then we wouldn't take ANYTHING. For me it's more about damage limitation and chosing where I am prepared to draw the line or how far I am prepared to go! And just because I chose one path it does not give me the right to condemn others for chosing a different one.


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## GBLiz (Jul 9, 2004)

i've used:

anavar - mainly at 20mg day. Only side effects was faster growing body hair (a right PAIN when you altready have gorilla-hair genes) When on for a longer time (like 12 weeks) started getting downy facial hair and hair frizz (reversed when come off)

Primo and anavar- 100mg primo a week, 10mg var per day. TOO MUCH!!! Voice cracked and didnt recover for about a year. Stayed a bit lower permanently UNTIL getting pregnant and then it went pretty much back to pre-steroid level. Some facial hair growth which had to be zapped with lasers!

Primo alone at 70ml/week - a better dose for me.

Any AAS gave me bacne and a bit more spotty generally.

I did have concerns that i was getting uglier facially, jaw, etc but i think that was more down to dieting, tough training, bad skin and the fact i was bulimic (not good for your looks generally!) also just more muscles on the face , now im not so beefy my jaw doesnt look in the slightest bit dubious so there cant have been any bone growth it must have been different fat/muscle distribution.

In the downstairs department- funny this! I once had to defend my honour on another board where someone had decided to slate me publicly and at the time i pointed out that clitoral swelling reverses off cycle and got absolutely shot down in flames!! I'm SO GLAD to see other girls posting that they have also found this to be true.

Anyway regarding fertility i accidentally got pregnant 4 weeks after coming off primo so no it didnt affect it LOL

While i was pregnant any lingering effects like the faster hair growth, deeper voice, skin, totally reversed and now im not so sure i'd want to go through the side effects again. At the time , the side effects were worth it but now i dont want to wake up every morning finding a new spot, or a hair growing where it shouldnt!


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## ElfinTan (May 23, 2008)

Very insightful Liz thanks x


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## GBLiz (Jul 9, 2004)

forgot to add in the fat burners! Eph, clen, t3....think its too easy to get dependant on eph. It can make you edgy but not even realise its burning your adrenal system out. i cant seem to tolerate any stimulants these days, the only thing ive had in the last 3 years is a Grenade (which is a legal one) , but that made me crash so bad i darent try anything harder! I think T3 is my preferred fatburner, i never had any side effects on that, nor any problems with rebound

Have usd growth low dose (2 iu a day) , cant really say looking back if it really did anything.....cos i used everything else with it...but no difference to my off-season leanness now using nothing, or then on all the clen and GH etc


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## GBLiz (Jul 9, 2004)

i forgot something else!!! I used winny for a couple of weeks once but it made me get awful scaley dandruff and textured skin so i came off pretty quick!!

Ive also used arimidex against my better judgement in comp prep (was advised to )- really bad rebound and TOTALLY unnecssary for a fitness girl qualifier, in hindsight!!! At the time i just did what i was told!!!


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## GBLiz (Jul 9, 2004)

btw linny you are looking dramatically different from what i remember seeing in your avator in the past!


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## ElfinTan (May 23, 2008)

Liz - if you were to do it all again would you have researched things better rather than 'just doing what you were told'?

And how do you think the availability of information has changed?


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## GBLiz (Jul 9, 2004)

Tan, to be honest I'm pretty impulsive and have a tendancy to overdo things anyway so i probably would do the same all over again! Although i do in a way wish i had been a bit more patient and seen things more clearly- fitness girls DONT need the amount of muscle i had.....but i liked being strong, i liked being on gear, and i liked scaring people!!

on doing what i was told, i had researched and questioned, but was kind of yelled at lol....at the time i was too scared to state my point, i was so new to it all....


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## Lou (Jul 27, 2008)

I trust Karen M implicitly with the things we are doing with and putting into my body - I do question alot of things and issues are discussed.

However that said it is in our own best interest to research the gear we take and ask as many question as we need to be more informed so that we don't plead ignorance if it all goes t!ts up.

:thumb: Lou XX


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## Lou (Jul 27, 2008)

Just subscribing..... :lol:


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## Linny (Jun 23, 2009)

GBLiz said:


> btw linny you are looking dramatically different from what i remember seeing in your avator in the past!


As in size wise Liz? I'm better at posing and learning to flair lats also had physio on back to even it out


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## Beklet (May 13, 2005)

Lin your arms have grown loads lol :laugh:

Interesting thread, this. After being very frustrated by my lack of weight loss, even when dieting and doing cardio etc, it was suggested to me that it may be a thyroid issue, and even if my thyroid levels were low but normal, I may want to supplement with T3...

Had bloods done, all was fine, on the face of it, so it's not such a burning issue but it's nice to know the advice is there if I need it!

My experience of ephedrine is limited to the form found in decongestants and I use that to breathe and sleep, not burn fat and stay alert :lol:

A lot of what Lohani said at the seminar rang true and I'll definitely be bearing it in mind, either way it will probably be quite a while before I go for the PEDs, if I ever do, but at least the support/experience is there :thumb:


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## Lois_Lane (Jul 21, 2009)

Well my Mrs used t3 for 3 months once and tbh it did not do very much for her even though her diet was very tight and very low in calories. Hardly a miracle drug at least in her case. Now low dose clen as in 40-50mcg per day has given her some nice fat loss along with what looks like possible muscle tissue gains but she is also using JW by ARLI.


----------



## Linny (Jun 23, 2009)

Lois_Lane said:


> Well my Mrs *used t3 for 3 months once and tbh it did not do very much for her even though her diet was very tight* and very low in calories. Hardly a miracle drug at least in her case. Now low dose clen as in 40-50mcg per day has given her some nice fat loss along with what looks like possible muscle tissue gains but she is also using JW by ARLI.


This is a question I asked at the weekend:

How do you know that T3 is working??

My diet is tight, my cardio and macro's bang on, I use 1ml Primo EW + 10mg Var ED, 7.5mg yohimbine pre fasted cardio and 7.5mg pre evening cardio. 75mg T3 ED + 100mg clen ED

I know it's an amalgamation of everything, BUT how do I know the T3 is necessary? Should I look different, should the fat loss be more prominent? How on earth can you tell?


----------



## Lois_Lane (Jul 21, 2009)

Linny said:


> This is a question I asked at the weekend:
> 
> How do you know that T3 is working??
> 
> ...


Well i know for my self i become far more hungry and basically i just lose weight far faster on the same diet/training than i would without.

We actually used it in combination with a pyscho diet as in sub 1000cals every single day. Muscle loss was no worry she simply wanted to drop as much as possible and it really did very little.

Personally i don't think it is all that for most people.

I actually have a slower than average thyroid so it works well for me.....

As far as some one saying it could have damage on the thyroid as there always is one:whistling:. She stopped it cold turkey and did blood work a couple of months later and every thing was perfect. BUT she did have a nasty water rebound where she gained about 15lb which stayed on her for a couple of weeks after dropping it.

Yohimibine is great my Mrs can tell a difference with those at 10mg in the AM.

HCG diet worked very well for her 600 calories per day along with 400iu hcg every day.

In 4 weeks she lost about 10lb which was great going for her at that stage but she looked very drained at the end lol no surprise really!

Stats on her she used to be 220lb at 5ft5 2.5 years ago. She starved her way down to 160lb this is where i took control of things. Now she is 136lb but pretty muscular with vascular arms and delts. Still has loose skin on her stomach and legs which is disapointing for her as her goal is to get into figure competitor shape.


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## Linny (Jun 23, 2009)

Lois_Lane said:


> Well i know for my self i become far more hungry and basically i just lose weight far faster on the same diet/training than i would without.
> 
> Would you also be hot constantly, like furnace hot?
> 
> ...


Yeah I'm not surprised she looked drained 

Has she used Bio oil for her skin? Also dry body brushing towards the heart and using Patchouli Essential Oil which also helps firm sagging skin, mixed with Apricot oil  :thumbup1:


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## Lois_Lane (Jul 21, 2009)

Linny said:


> Yeah I'm not surprised she looked drained
> 
> Has she used Bio oil for her skin? Also dry body brushing towards the heart and using Patchouli Essential Oil which also helps firm sagging skin, mixed with Apricot oil :thumbup1:


She has not tried that i don't think i will let her know :beer:

Yeah on the T3 i am always hot and really damn hungry.

I actually have no problem with cravings on a diet until i add in the t3 then i am waking up in the middle of the night dying with hunger.

It's a tricky thing helping her with various gear items.

Weakest thing i have is winstrol in 50mg caps:lol:

Because i don't have anavar or any thing like that she has to use the OTC steroids and some of these are far harsher than others.

I must say the JW which i believe is simply low dosed tbol has been giving her great gains. No side effects and best of all she doesn't get ill and worn out like she used to from training.


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## Linny (Jun 23, 2009)

Lois_Lane said:


> She has not tried that i don't think i will let her know :beer:
> 
> Yeah on the T3 i am always hot and really damn hungry.
> 
> ...


Ahah so that's why I'm swinging out of the cupboards at 2am thinking the dried lentils look appealing :lol:

I have the same problem. I have 50mg Anavar and 50mg Winny, I bought diamond weighing scales and a pill cutter, works just dandy AND it's cheaper :thumbup1:

I used a certain labs Var and somebody said it may be low dose dbol has I bloated for fun and went very spotty facially. Not used that lab since.

What's JW?


----------



## Lois_Lane (Jul 21, 2009)

Linny said:


> Ahah so that's why I'm swinging out of the cupboards at 2am thinking the dried lentils look appealing :lol:
> 
> I have the same problem. I have 50mg Anavar and 50mg Winny, I bought diamond weighing scales and a pill cutter, works just dandy AND it's cheaper :thumbup1:
> 
> ...


Tabs would be easier, i have powder capped so it would be a bit tricky....

Sounds like dbol to me var wouldn't bloat you.

JW is just an OTC supp which i think is now off the market or nearly off by now called jungle warfare by ARLI industries.


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## Linny (Jun 23, 2009)

Lois_Lane said:


> Tabs would be easier, i have powder capped so it would be a bit tricky....
> 
> Sounds like dbol to me var wouldn't bloat you.
> 
> JW is just an OTC supp which i think is now off the market or nearly off by now called jungle warfare by ARLI industries.


You could use this cap kit, fiddly yes but worth a try. Going to order one of these so I can prepare in bulk instead of farting around in the mornings! *http://www.myprotein.co.uk/products/caps-and-capping-kits/capsule-machine-%28size-00%29/ *

*
*

*
*I'll have a read up on it, not familiar with this


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## DB (Oct 31, 2003)

capping kits are awesome takes about 5 mins to make 50 caps


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## Linny (Jun 23, 2009)

DB said:


> capping kits are awesome takes about 5 mins to make 50 caps


Cool, order being put it then :thumbup1:


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## Bettyboo (Jun 8, 2009)

I am on t3 at the moment with ALR poison, and I am loosing weight on it 

I am really thirsty in the evenings though and drink 5 - 6 litres of water through out the day. I cant say that I have gotten hungrier on it, more like its makes me less hungry ???


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## Linny (Jun 23, 2009)

Have any of you ladies used any of the following coming up to comp:

Aromasin

Nolvadex

Arimadex

Proviron

If so what have you found the differences to be, as there are lots of conflicting views on the above.


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## Big Dawg (Feb 24, 2008)

Haven't read through everything yet, but it seems crazy that women are still left with the slightly deepened voice etc long after they come off/ reduce dose. I only mention this because Kim Chizevsky for example was fairly masculinized when she was competing but I was blown away by how feminine she looks now!

Kim then:



















And then now:










She features heavily in this vid too from about 20 mins onwards: http://www.megavideo.com/?v=Y2Q3SHZB

However, just watched a bit actually and her voice does sound slightly deeper than the average. She looks fantastic now though (and by that I just mean very feminine and in great shape) so I guess some of the facial masculinization may be reversible? I know this only occurs in some female competitors using some compounds, but I'm quite interested as to what's reversible and what isn't. Perhaps just holding that much mass and having a low body fat gives the illusion of masculinization but when a lot of the tissue is lost some of these characteristics sort of revert to normal? Bev Francis is another one who looks very feminine now but didn't at the peak of her competitive career.


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## Andrikos (Sep 10, 2008)

The blonde in the last picture is not Kim Chizevsky , her name is Debbie Kruck and she does look fantastic _0_


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## Linny (Jun 23, 2009)

AlasTTTair said:


> Haven't read through everything yet, but it seems crazy that women are still left with the slightly deepened voice etc long after they come off/ reduce dose.


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## nosusjoe (Mar 15, 2010)

hey is that Kelly Ryan?


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## WRT (May 21, 2009)

AlasTTTair said:


> Haven't read through everything yet, but it seems crazy that women are still left with the slightly deepened voice etc long after they come off/ reduce dose. I only mention this because Kim Chizevsky for example was fairly masculinized when she was competing but I was blown away by how feminine she looks now!


She more than likely looked more masculine when competing due to having low bodyfat and having a drawn face, but yes AAS will of course have been a factor. It is possible for de-masculisation to occur though, watched a program about transexuals and showed before and afters of hormone therapy.


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## Lois_Lane (Jul 21, 2009)

Bettyboo said:


> I am on t3 at the moment with ALR poison, and I am loosing weight on it
> 
> I am really thirsty in the evenings though and drink 5 - 6 litres of water through out the day. I cant say that I have gotten hungrier on it, more like its makes me less hungry ???


The hunger loss is due to the POISON as its designed to do this.


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## Lou (Jul 27, 2008)

AlasTTTair said:


> Haven't read through everything yet, but it seems crazy that women are still left with the slightly deepened voice etc long after they come off/ reduce dose.


The voice will not always revert to pre-gear tones.....part of the sides, the vocal cords thicken like when a guys voice breaks as a young teen.

I have developed a bit of a rasp but not massivley so..... mg:


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## Lou (Jul 27, 2008)




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## Linny (Jun 23, 2009)




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## DB (Oct 31, 2003)

Lou said:


> \
> 
> I have developed a bit of a rasp but not massivley so..... mg:


having spoke to u at shows I wouldn't know if I chatted to u on the phone you had done AAS


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## Bettyboo (Jun 8, 2009)

Lois_Lane said:


> The hunger loss is due to the POISON as its designed to do this.


Thanks thats why then


----------



## Andrikos (Sep 10, 2008)

AlasTTTair said:


> Haven't read through everything yet, but it seems crazy that women are still left with the slightly deepened voice etc long after they come off/ reduce dose. I only mention this because Kim Chizevsky for example was fairly masculinized when she was competing but I was blown away by how feminine she looks now!
> 
> Kim then:
> 
> ...


Can u please edit your post as that is not Kim Chizevsky in the last pic but Debbie Kruck ? Cheers.


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## GBLiz (Jul 9, 2004)

here's my before ever using gear (non dieted), during (dieted) and then 2 years without using , having been thru a pregnancy and not eating protein or training for a year (non dieted)

You can see quite a difference in jaw shape which returns to exactly how it was previously ...i dont think theres any truth in the jaw growing theories- like i said before i think its changes in muscle/fat distribution. Also virtually a full return to natural bodyshape.


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## GBLiz (Jul 9, 2004)

a bit clearer to see in the face here: bear in mind i'm 10 years younger in the first (before) pic LOL


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## DB (Oct 31, 2003)

I'm suprised that its gone back 100% Liz, amazed tbh


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## Lou (Jul 27, 2008)

Linny said:


> Have any of you ladies used any of the following coming up to comp:
> 
> Aromasin
> 
> ...


I have used Nolvadex.....it gives me hot flashes...

I have also used Proviron during cutting but can't say exactly what side effects there were because a few different compounds were used giving synergistic effect.

Does that make sense? :laugh:


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## Linny (Jun 23, 2009)

Lou said:


> I have used Nolvadex.....it gives me hot flashes...
> 
> I have also used Proviron during cutting but can't say exactly what side effects there were because a few different compounds were used giving synergistic effect.
> 
> Does that make sense? :laugh:


Thanks Lou! it's the positives I'm interested in. Used Nolva but didn't notice any difference when cutting. Currently reading up on all the above 

xx


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## Lou (Jul 27, 2008)

Linny said:


> Thanks Lou! it's the positives I'm interested in. Used Nolva but didn't notice any difference when cutting. Currently reading up on all the above
> 
> xx


You won't necessarily notice the effects of Nolva it is designed to stop oestrogen binding with the receptors.....so whilst the nolva is busy doing that the other compounds will then be able to work to greater effect.

This is my understanding.

What did you use for cutting?


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## clairey.h (Feb 8, 2009)

used GH 2iu ED...had really sore hands and legs whilst using

eph stack every gym day before workout.....after years of abusing eph to the point of being a very skinny fat bird I now limit my use to only gym days and have a good few months off it every year, and make sure I still eat my meals....

tried clen, but like the boost that I got from eph so stuck with that instead...also had to remember to put eyeliner on before and not after clen was taken....

will be running GH again from next week (not sure if I want to change to 2iu EOD)....there was a thread last year on GH and ezcema, as I suffer from this quite badly was thinking of keeping a record of it to see if in my case it improved the condition of my skin....

really great and informative thread to read through....


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## GBLiz (Jul 9, 2004)

proviron and nolvadex ive used for a couple of weeks pre contest and it hardened me up nicely but then again ive got in my best condition ever NOT using them


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## Bettyboo (Jun 8, 2009)

Does anyone know where I can get bloods done pre AAS usage but not at my docs.

Ta x


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## ElfinTan (May 23, 2008)

Miss Molly said:


> For those that have used AAS in particualar anavar, what gains did you get and did you maintain them after you stopped using? Also, how long was it before gains and sides where noticeable?
> 
> Another question I would be interested in hearing discussed is the addictive nature of AAS use? How does it feel coming off AAS and how do you cope both physically and emotionally?


I got pretty visible gains within 6 weeks and gains have progressed with each course. I reckon over the course of 2 - 2 1/2 years I've put on around 15lb of muscle which have been maintained. I noticed the spotty sides starting on Var coming through after a few weeks and the same with the scratchy voice.

When I come off my strength goes down (saying that I've always done my bench PB's when off lol). I know this is going to happen so I just change my training slightly but to be fair it doesn't bother me too much. There is an emotional 'shift' due to the hormonal changes but again nothing extreme for me personally. The spotty sides from coming off the primo have only just gone after a good couple of months. This for me personally is the worst part. As a teenager through puberty and into adulthood I have on and off suffered from spots on my back (around period etc....cleared RIGHT is when pregnant) and the AA's just magnify this but I think it is more from the oestrogen rebound than anything else.

Liz - thanks for posting the pictures. They really do go to show that much of the 'perceived' changes are really down to diet etc. Excellent post and your shared experiences really are invaluable!


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## Linny (Jun 23, 2009)

Miss Molly said:


> For those that have used AAS in particualar anavar, what gains did you get and did you maintain them after you stopped using? Also, how long was it before gains and sides where noticeable?


Anavar definite strength gains noticeable within 2 mths. Spots behind ears

Lady bits woke up

Winstrol oral - this compound I prefer, I really like the harder look it gave me. BUT makes you extremely horny also started to get agitated & moody around when period was due, so it just heightened what I'd feel pre-menstrual. Definite difference in tolerance level, makes me feel more distant. Spots started but not many. periods stopped

Stacked Winstrol (12.5mg) + Anavar (20mg) but then changed to Winstrol 25mg only as this Anavar bloated my face, very very painful boils on chin neck and back (different lab!! may possibly have been dbol) periods stopped

Primobolan - strength through the bloody roof! People say I've grown definitely. NO spots, no mood swings, not irritable, periods stopped. Been 3 wks today been off and no spots.



> Another question I would be interested in hearing discussed is the addictive nature of AAS use? How does it feel coming off AAS and how do you cope both physically and emotionally?


It depends on the type of person you are to begin with. I'm a soft ****. AAS makes me feel less this way, moods balance, I seem to be more level headed and focussed. The way I describe it is I think black and white, no mmmmms or maybe's it's yes or no.

When stopping cycle I revert back to the soft woman of which I don't like BUT that's a personal preference. Also you look softer which can be a major head fck.

AAS is a means to an end. If your emotionally charged before it can make you more so, if your more angry to start same as above.

So when you ask if it's addictive it's if you like the person and look you had before starting.


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## Linny (Jun 23, 2009)

Lou said:


> You won't necessarily notice the effects of Nolva it is designed to stop oestrogen binding with the receptors.....so whilst the nolva is busy doing that the other compounds will then be able to work to greater effect.
> 
> This is my understanding.
> 
> What did you use for cutting?


T3 Clen, & Nolva towards the end.

Dieted without Nolva before, then with it didn't notice a difference overall but then my fat is evenly distributed not more so around hips and thighs etc. x


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## GBLiz (Jul 9, 2004)

i didnt have any strength drop when i came off, but i didnt like looking softer . like tan sometimes the spots would come AFTER the cycle. Acne can really get you down and its like, why bother having this great body if you have to hide it bcause of your bacne?! But then i think that all depends if you're prone to acne anyway (which i am, i was on antibiotics for adult acne before i ever used gear)

psychologically i always felt more confident, aggressive, etc on gear. Also i felt more certain that i wanted to be big and stong and get bigger and stronger.....when off i became less sure that thats actually what i wanted....but i did love being on!!! if i could guarantee no sides now i would jump right back in.....

everyones different with sides as im sure has become apparant by this thread. Probably confounded with the fact that we might not always know exactly what we're taking....


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## Linny (Jun 23, 2009)

GBLiz said:


> everyones different with sides as im sure has become apparant by this thread. *Probably confounded with the fact that we might not always know exactly what we're taking.*...


I think people don't realise that it matters too women. With a guy if they received dbol instead of Anavar it wouldn't make as much of an impact as it would with a woman. x


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## WRT (May 21, 2009)

Bettyboo said:


> Does anyone know where I can get bloods done pre AAS usage but not at my docs.
> 
> Ta x


Ask PScarb, I think he uses a guy on here, can't remember his username though.


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## WILD_AMAZON1 (Jul 4, 2008)

WRT said:


> Ask PScarb, I think he uses a guy on here, can't remember his username though.


Bentley Miller maybe? I could have just made that up though :confused1:


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## WRT (May 21, 2009)

WILD_AMAZON1 said:


> Bentley Miller maybe? I could have just made that up though :confused1:


That's the guy! :thumb:


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## Bettyboo (Jun 8, 2009)

Thanks you two's


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## gumballdom (Dec 14, 2008)

Bettyboo said:


> Does anyone know where I can get bloods done pre AAS usage but not at my docs.
> 
> Ta x


you can also get blood tests done at www.thedoctorltd.co.uk


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## Lou (Jul 27, 2008)

Why not approach your GP?

The opening line could be 'I would like you to keep an open mind'....explain what you are doing and that you want to monitor your health with their help while you are doing AAS?

You are demonstrating that you are being 'responsible' by being honest with your GP, you are letting thme know that you do know what you are doing but have still put your health in their hands leaving them feeling that they have a measure of perceived control.

:whistling:


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## Linny (Jun 23, 2009)

Lou said:


> Why not approach your GP?
> 
> The opening line could be 'I would like you to keep an open mind'....explain what you are doing and that you want to monitor your health with their help while you are doing AAS?
> 
> ...


I tried this Lou, he said he would refuse to treat me for anything in the future  so now I will have to go private for bloods.

Wouldn't mind but they have no problems treating heroin addicts, alcoholics, morbidly obese people. x


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## weeman (Sep 6, 2007)

Linny said:


> I tried this Lou, he said he would refuse to treat me for anything in the future  so now I will have to go private for bloods.
> 
> *Wouldn't mind but they have no problems treating heroin addicts, alcoholics, morbidly obese people*. x


that angers me no end,they will treat those but wont help you.

If i am right in thinking is it not actually illegal for your doc to refuse to treat you in this scenario? i am almost certain someone posted as regards to this before 

I'd be looking to see what channels i could put an official complaint in about your GP if i were you Lin!


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## Ser (Aug 10, 2008)

Linny you should officially complain, write to your local HEALTH BOARD, not to the doctors surgery. Tell them that not only do you have to sit in the waiting room with junkies, drunks and fat cvnts(who are all receiving treatment for their 'conditions') but your doctor seems to think that he can threaten you with non treatment for medical conditions......if you are on their patient lists then they must treat you adequately for EACH condition....just look at all the doctors getting suspended due to NOT treating someone properly(through accident or not)


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## rs007 (May 28, 2007)

The NHS, thankfully, treats all comers (or should). its the principal the whole system is founded on, everybody treated equally, regardless if self inflicted or not. I don't get agitated by addicts getting treatment for this reason - but then hear about sh1t like this and my blood fvcking boils.

Doctor needs his fvcking books, arrogant up his own ar$e bastard.


----------



## Linny (Jun 23, 2009)

weeman said:


> that angers me no end,they will treat those but wont help you.
> 
> If i am right in thinking is it not actually illegal for your doc to refuse to treat you in this scenario? i am almost certain someone posted as regards to this before
> 
> I'd be looking to see what channels i could put an official complaint in about your GP if i were you Lin!





Mrs Weeman said:


> Linny you should officially complain, write to your local HEALTH BOARD, not to the doctors surgery. Tell them that not only do you have to sit in the waiting room with junkies, drunks and fat cvnts(who are all receiving treatment for their 'conditions') but your doctor seems to think that he can threaten you with non treatment for medical conditions......if you are on their patient lists then they must treat you adequately for EACH condition....just look at all the doctors getting suspended due to NOT treating someone properly(through accident or not)





rs007 said:


> The NHS, thankfully, treats all comers (or should). its the principal the whole system is founded on, everybody treated equally, regardless if self inflicted or not. I don't get agitated by addicts getting treatment for this reason - but then hear about sh1t like this and my blood fvcking boils.
> 
> Doctor needs his fvcking books, arrogant up his own ar$e bastard.


Illegal really that's v.interesting and would save me money if that is the case! Thanks guys I shall be making a trip back to the doctors :thumbup1: x


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## Ser (Aug 10, 2008)

rs007 said:


> The NHS, thankfully, treats all comers (or should). its the principal the whole system is founded on, everybody treated equally, regardless if self inflicted or not. I don't get agitated by addicts getting treatment for this reason - but then hear about sh1t like this and my blood fvcking boils.
> 
> Doctor needs his fvcking books, arrogant up his own ar$e bastard.


Tbf its not that i particularly don't want those categories(mainly the junkies though) to get treatment...its more that the only time i'm in the docs surgery is when the kids have an appointment....and they(the junkies) are wasted and staggering around or dribbling and falling off their chairs...or even better that every week when we pick up Laurens meds(the pharmacy is inside the surgery) that we gotta wait half an hour to get served whilst the junkies get taken straight away... :cursing: (sorry, a bit off topic)

Yes Linny, get back down there and demand equal treatment:thumbup1:


----------



## GBLiz (Jul 9, 2004)

kami told his doctor he wanted bloods done post cycle and she looked at him in horror and said 'STEROIDS??? Where on earth are you getting THEM from?' very unprofessional asking for sources i thought! she wouldnt be asking a junkie who his dealer was would she?


----------



## GBLiz (Jul 9, 2004)

mrs weeman i'd be quite interested to know the doses you used as youve not used to get BIG....but have benefitted from looking hard/toned & sex life benefits etc without sides...


----------



## Beklet (May 13, 2005)

GBLiz said:


> kami told his doctor he wanted bloods done post cycle and she looked at him in horror and said 'STEROIDS??? Where on earth are you getting THEM from?' very unprofessional asking for sources i thought! she wouldnt be asking a junkie who his dealer was would she?


And what winds me up even more is that it's not illegal to take steroids...(it's not illegal to eat lard, smoke or drink either but arguably they cause FAR more problems...)


----------



## Ser (Aug 10, 2008)

GBLiz said:


> mrs weeman i'd be quite interested to know the doses you used as youve not used to get BIG....but have benefitted from looking hard/toned & sex life benefits etc without sides...


Deca-100mg every 7-10 days(8-12 weeks on)

Eq-100mg every 7-10 days(8-12 weeks on)

Winstrol-12.5-25mg daily(only used for short period of time before switching to eq as mentioned in previous post)

Clen-20-40 mg daily(but am really sensitive to it and try to avoid)

Eph&#8230;makes me paranoid, have tried all sorts of doseages and I used to be fine taking it&#8230;just not anymore.

GH-2iu EOD Ran for 3 months in conjunction with deca, probably the best I have EVER looked.

GHRP2-125mg each night

I tend to use only one compound per cycle.

ATM I have been using deca for around six weeks at the dose stated above, the GHRP2 have been using for around 2 weeks(although I have missed a few days due to having the memory of a goldfish:laugh: ) Can see huge differences already as i had lost a hell of a lot of weight over the last couple of months(been a fairly long time since my last course)

I have NO intention of ever competing....just enjoy the benefits(to be fair i am lucky and have very few notable bad sides)


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## Lou (Jul 27, 2008)

I went to my GP she said no worries about blood test, she even asked what bloods I wanted doing........going in May.

She of course gave me the mandatory 'just be careful'......she has been my GP for 15 years and we have a good relationship, maybe that's the difference.

:thumb:


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## WRT (May 21, 2009)

Linny said:


> *Illegal* really that's v.interesting and would save me money if that is the case! Thanks guys I shall be making a trip back to the doctors :thumbup1: x


Would think so tbh, if he's your GP and refusing to treat you because you look after yourself and have an interest in bodybuilding, shouldn't matter whether you take AAS or not, silly cnut:cursing:


----------



## Linny (Jun 23, 2009)

Lou said:


> I went to my GP she said no worries about blood test, she even asked what bloods I wanted doing........going in May.
> 
> She of course gave me the mandatory 'just be careful'......she has been my GP for 15 years and we have a good relationship, maybe that's the difference.
> 
> :thumb:


Really lol my doctor is from the older end of the generation. I'll go back and see a younger model :laugh:


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## Lou (Jul 27, 2008)

Linny said:


> Really lol my doctor is from the older end of the generation. I'll go back and see a younger model :laugh:


My doc is about the same age as I am.....our kids are about the same age too. 

I believe in building solid relationships with any professional that is dealing with my body......whether that be my trainer, doctor, osteopath or surgeon.

Yes go back and see a 'younger model' and only deal with that one doctor....that way you can build that all important relationship and there will be a continuity of care as well.


----------



## Bettyboo (Jun 8, 2009)

I dont wanna go to my docs because the first thing I got asked was "oh are you doing dodgey anabolic steroids" when I only went to get my **** jabbed with contraceptive. They have it on file that I train. I get asked it every time i go in there now it gets very annoying. Just something you have to put up with.

So i would prefer to go elsewhere it will just be easier for me.


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## Gym Bunny (Mar 25, 2009)

Linny said:


> Really lol my doctor is from the older end of the generation. I'll go back and see a younger model :laugh:


My old man's a GP, he launched into a rant about the health complications associated with obesity compared to his patients in their 50s and 60s who used gear and other than coming to get their bloods done have no health problems at all. :lol:

EDIT: been told that while it could be described as unethical to refuse do bloods and not in the patient's interest, it is not actually illegal to refuse.



Lou said:


> My doc is about the same age as I am.....our kids are about the same age too.
> 
> I believe in building solid relationships with any professional that is dealing with my body......whether that be my trainer, doctor, osteopath or surgeon.
> 
> Yes go back and see a 'younger model' and only deal with that one doctor....that way you can build that all important relationship and there will be a continuity of care as well.


Great to hear you have such a good relationship with your doc Lou. Great advice about building a relationship with the doc too.

I actually prefer the older generation. The docs my age seem to be a bunch of self important know-it-alls (and they don't). I wonder if it's a shift in attitude. Also found younger docs to be very close minded.



Bettyboo said:


> I dont wanna go to my docs because the first thing I got asked was "oh are you doing dodgey anabolic steroids" when I only went to get my **** jabbed with contraceptive. They have it on file that I train. I get asked it every time i go in there now it gets very annoying. Just something you have to put up with.
> 
> So i would prefer to go elsewhere it will just be easier for me.


Betty, perhaps you could ask your doc for bloods, because you are getting the contraceptive jab, which contains sex hormones ergo, by definition it is ALSO a steroid. As you are effectively altering the balance of your body's hormones you have the right to know how it is affecting you.

I had terrible reactions to certain forms of the pill and in hindsight wish I'd asked for bloods to see what was going on.


----------



## Lou (Jul 27, 2008)

Gym Bunny said:


> Betty, perhaps you could ask your doc for bloods, because you are getting the contraceptive jab, *which contains sex hormones ergo, by definition it is ALSO a steroid.* As you are effectively altering the balance of your body's hormones you have the right to know how it is affecting you. .


LOL!! you beat me to it... Boo..exactly as Gym Bunny says


----------



## Gym Bunny (Mar 25, 2009)

Lou said:


> LOL!! you beat me to it... Boo..exactly as Gym Bunny says


This always craks me up when people go on about the dangers of steroids...and you have to explain that


not all steroids are anabolic.

the pill is a steroid.

the medical benefits of steroids have been demonstrated over and over and over again.e.g. cortisone injections...That's a steroid too


*head-desks* at the ignorant attitude of so many people


----------



## dmcc (Nov 25, 2007)

Interesting points on the bloods issue - I had mine done with the opener "there's a history of heart problems and diabetes in the family" and was eventually referred to a cardiologist. It was a false reading, but the cardiologist also gave me a green card for bi-annual blood work to keep an eye on my cholesterol. If there is a medical history in the family, exploit it.


----------



## Beklet (May 13, 2005)

dmcc said:


> Interesting points on the bloods issue - I had mine done with the opener "there's a history of heart problems and diabetes in the family" and was eventually referred to a cardiologist. It was a false reading, but the cardiologist also gave me a green card for bi-annual blood work to keep an eye on my cholesterol. If there is a medical history in the family, exploit it.


Yep - I just asked for a thyroid test - doc asked if there was any history of heart disease in the family and added cholesterol and other stuff to the paperwork


----------



## Big Dawg (Feb 24, 2008)

Andrikos said:


> Can u please edit your post as that is not Kim Chizevsky in the last pic but Debbie Kruck ? Cheers.


I thought it looked fcuk all like her but the website I got it from said it was. I posted a vid with her in as well though and that actually is her. No point editing it if you've already quoted the pic


----------



## DB (Oct 31, 2003)

I've been doing alot of reading today on A.I's such as arimidex and letro

Have any girls used these? benefits/sides?


----------



## Ser (Aug 10, 2008)

DB said:


> I've been doing alot of reading today on A.I's such as arimidex and letro
> 
> Have any girls used these? benefits/sides?


No, sorry. Would be interested to read folks experiences, do i delve further into Bri's stash? :lol:


----------



## Linny (Jun 23, 2009)

OK been off primo 4wks this Sunday and after effects kicking in. Boils appearing behind ears, chin & top of thighs.

Periods still not returned, and extra hair growth still there :cool2:


----------



## Cheese (Jul 7, 2009)

How long until the after effects start to diminish and you feel back to normal again?

(assuming you have done primo before)


----------



## ElfinTan (May 23, 2008)

Linny said:


> OK been off primo 4wks this Sunday and after effects kicking in. Boils appearing behind ears, chin & top of thighs.
> 
> Periods still not returned, and extra hair growth still there :cool2:


Like I said it would Chick! 4 weeks is when it started for me....bacne didn't clear up completely for a couple of months but only slight spot on chinline and nowhere else. Extra hair went once periods started again which was quite soon after the 4 weeks...maybe at about 6 weeks. I like primo but I might consider tapering it off next time as I am pretty sure it's the oestrogen rebound that causes the nasty spots. The same thing happens with me on Var but this has a MUCH shorter half life which is why many women split the dose into two x per day. I didn't and am now wondering if I could have minimised the hormonal rollercoaster by doing so.

Anyone any thoughts on this?


----------



## Linny (Jun 23, 2009)

ElfinTan said:


> Like I said it would Chick! 4 weeks is when it started for me....bacne didn't clear up completely for a couple of months but only slight spot on chinline and nowhere else. Extra hair went once periods started again which was quite soon after the 4 weeks...maybe at about 6 weeks. I like primo but I might consider tapering it off next time as I am pretty sure it's the oestrogen rebound that causes the nasty spots. The same thing happens with me on Var but this has a MUCH shorter half life which is why many women split the dose into two x per day. I didn't and am now wondering if I could have minimised the hormonal rollercoaster by doing so.
> 
> Anyone any thoughts on this?


Yup you did...I thought I had evaded it :whistling: :laugh: and these are mother fcker of boils and they is sore!

Also will deff consider doing 1ml every 10days next time. Period looks like its short coming getting overly women's feelings :cool2: which I hate with a passion BUT saying all Primo has to be the best 1 for me so far, and wouldn't hesitate to go back on :thumbup1:


----------



## ElfinTan (May 23, 2008)

Linny said:


> Yup you did...I thought I had evaded it :whistling: :laugh: and these are mother fcker of boils and they is sore!
> 
> Also will deff consider doing 1ml every 10days next time. Period looks like its short coming getting overly women's feelings :cool2: which I hate with a passion BUT saying all Primo has to be the best 1 for me so far, and wouldn't hesitate to go back on :thumbup1:


Same here! Bit I do think over the longer period deffo .5ml every 5 days after initial ml a week for 1st 4. Well that's my plan so I will let you know how it goes!


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## Gym Bunny (Mar 25, 2009)

I know there's a correlation between cystic acne and estrogen increase. Have either of you tried Accutane?

Or if that doesn't work have you considered DIM ( diindolylmethane)? It balances estrogen and is a natural strong anti-androgen.

I can dig out some more (relevant?) info on it if you want/need, but it certainly helped my bcne

Some bumph:



> DIM is short for Diindolylmethane
> 
> Diindolyl methane is a dietary indole found in cruciferous vegetables. DIM occurs naturally within the cruciferous vegetable plant after crushing or chewing. Plant enzymes produce DIM form precursors called glucosinolates.
> 
> ...


----------



## ElfinTan (May 23, 2008)

What does this mean in simple terms GB?


----------



## Andrikos (Sep 10, 2008)

I m posting this here so everything is concetrated to this thread.

Administration of the anabolic androgenic steroid nandrolone decanoate to female rats causes alterations in the morphology of their uterus and a reduction in reproductive capacity

Hamid Reza Mobini Far a,*, Greta A ° gren b, Ann-Sophie Lindqvist c,

Maarit Marmendal c, Claudia Fahlke c, Ingemar Thiblin a

a Department of Surgical Science, Division of Forensic Medicine, Uppsala University,

Dag Hammarskjo¨lds va¨g 17, S-752 37 Uppsala, Sweden

b Karolinska Institute, Department of Physiology and Pharmacology, S-171 77 Stockholm, Sweden

c Department of Psychology, Gothenburg University, Box 500, S-405 30 Gothenburg, Sweden

Received 14 July 2005; received in revised form 30 June 2006; accepted 19 July 2006

Abstract

Objective: The aim of the present investigation was to characterize the effects of supraphysiological doses of the anabolic androgenic steroid

nandrolone decanoate (ND) on the fertility of female rats, as well as on the morphology of their uterus.

Study design: FemaleWistar rats (n = 15) received a subcutaneous injection of ND (15 mg/kg) once daily during a 2-week period, while the

control animals (n = 10) were administered vehicle alone (arachidis oleum) in the same manner. Estrus behavior was evaluated 4 weeks after termination of this treatment and in cases where signs of receptivity were present, the female rat was given the opportunity to copulate with a male. After breeding, the female animals were sacrificed and their uteri examined histomorphologically.

Results: All ND-treated animals exhibited abnormal vaginal smears, whereas all of the control smears were normal. Most (73%) of the

treated females demonstrated normal estrus behavior (i.e., willingness) on the day of mating, but none got pregnant; whereas all of the

control rats became pregnant. The female rats receiving the ND showed an enhanced rate of weight gain and the myometrium thickness of

their uteri was significantly increased, while the endometrium was significantly thinner. Furthermore, ND caused a significant proportion of

the treated animals to display tortuous and irregularly branching endometrial glands, as well as a lack of the physiologically normal infiltration of eosinophilic leukocytes into the endometrium (endometrial eosinophilic homing), a finding that has not been reported

previously.

Conclusion: The present findings indicate that high doses of ND cause morphological and physiological alterations in the uterus of female rats that are associated with a suppression of their reproductive capacity.


----------



## Nytol (Jul 16, 2005)

Andrikos said:


> Conclusion: The present findings indicate that high doses of ND cause morphological and physiological alterations in the uterus of female rats that are associated with a suppression of their reproductive capacity.


Is that just while on the drug, or a permanent change?


----------



## Andrikos (Sep 10, 2008)

Nytol said:


> Is that just while on the drug, or a permanent change?


Good question , according to the full text version the smears were taken around 3 months after discontuniation of use , not sure what this translates to human years exactly but I think I am more inclined to say it looks like a permanent change both physiologically and morphologically.


----------



## Nytol (Jul 16, 2005)

Andrikos said:


> Good question , according to the full text version the smears were taken around 3 months after discontuniation of use , not sure what this translates to human years exactly but I think I am more inclined to say it looks like a permanent change both physiologically and morphologically.


That is a very interesting and serious point.


----------



## Nytol (Jul 16, 2005)

Following on from that, how many women have had children post AAS use?

Either personal experience, or those you know?

I do not follow female BB'ing, but have any of the top physique girls had children after competing at a high level?

Avril had you used before you had yours?

Excuse my ignorance, but it is a subject I've not heard raised much and find it interesting, male fertility with regards to AAS is spoken of on a daily basis, but not so with women.


----------



## BigDom86 (Jul 27, 2008)

average lifespan of a rat is 18-21 months. so 3 months is a decade or so in human years. well this is how we have been using rodent ages in the lab at uni. ill find my reference.


----------



## weeman (Sep 6, 2007)

Nytol said:


> Following on from that, how many women have had children post AAS use?
> 
> Either personal experience, or those you know?
> 
> ...


Ser had our second child after 4x10-12wk cycles of deca with gh in one of the cycles,she actually fell pregnant whilst on deca.

I know Av didnt start using till 1999/2000 (all three of her kids are in their twenties now)

Quite a few girls i know who have used aas for years and concieved kids,i know there was complications with ours but that was down to other matters


----------



## Lou (Jul 27, 2008)

weeman said:


> Ser had our second child after 4x10-12wk cycles of deca with gh in one of the cycles,she actually fell pregnant whilst on deca.
> 
> I know Av didnt start using till 1999/2000 (all three of her kids are in their twenties now)
> 
> Quite a few girls i know who have used aas for years and concieved kids,i know there was complications with ours but that was down to other matters


Notable examples from the FBB world....... Bev Francis, Kim Chizevsky.


----------



## ElfinTan (May 23, 2008)

Liz Kinsella & Lohani Roche that I personally know of!


----------



## JB74 (Jan 6, 2008)

i know this thread is for the ladies but i have found this thread so interesting ive been glued to it and that is coming from a guy whos never touched steriods.

good on ye girls:thumb:


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## Nytol (Jul 16, 2005)

Andrikos, are there any other similar studies you know of?

Does the full study state why ND was the drug of choice?

Any clues to the mechanism of the morphology, could all AAS have a similar effect?


----------



## Linny (Jun 23, 2009)

Andrikos said:


> I m posting this here so everything is concetrated to this thread.
> 
> Administration of the anabolic androgenic steroid nandrolone decanoate to female rats causes alterations in the morphology of their uterus and a reduction in reproductive capacity
> 
> ...


I have found this to be a very interesting read, but it is very hard to digest written in these terms. What does the part in bold translate to in Layman's terms?

Thanks


----------



## Lou (Jul 27, 2008)

ElfinTan said:


> Liz Kinsella & Lohani Roche that I personally know of!


No worries then...... :thumb:


----------



## Andrikos (Sep 10, 2008)

Nytol said:


> Andrikos, are there any other similar studies you know of?
> 
> Does the full study state why ND was the drug of choice?
> 
> Any clues to the mechanism of the morphology, could all AAS have a similar effect?


I 've come across some , not a lot maybe because the prevelence of AAS use in women is not considered a public health concern that much so there is not much funding for that stuff.

There was not much reasoning as why nadrolone was preferred but I assume maybe because it is used in women already for osteoporosis treatment even though the study was not examining the effects of ND but the side effects strictly. 

Now concerning the mechanism it 's pretty hard to get that type of info in vivo at least 

The following stydy is pretty interesting because it has exercise in it , pretty much like a female athlete using AAS.

*Ovarian histology and follicular score in female rats treated with nandrolone decanoate and submitted to physical effort *

* Authors *

Isabel Cristina Cherici Camargo1







, Roberta Barreiros De Souza1, Suzana Fátima Paccola Mesquita2, L. G. A. Chuffa1, F. Frei1

1São Paulo State University - UNESP Department of Biological Sciences, Faculty of Sciences and Letters Assis SP Brazil

2State University of Londrina - UEL Department of General Biology Londrina PR Brazil

Journal Acta Biologica Hungarica*Volume 60, Number 3/September 2009*

* Abstract *

The study was conducted to analyze the histology of the ovaries of adults rats treated with steroids, and submitted or not to physical effort. The control group consisted of females submitted to physical effort and sedentary females, both of which received a physiological solution of 0.9% saline. Treated females, sedentary or not, received 6 mg/kg of body weight of nandrolone decanoate. The steroid and physiological solution were administered intraperitoneally, with a single injection per week for 4 consecutive weeks. The applied physical effort was swimming (20 minutes daily, 5 days/week, for the 4 weeks of treatment). Serial sections (5 μm) of ovaries were prepared for histological evaluation and follicular score. The weight of ovaries and hypophysis, the number of antral and atretic follicles, and the area of corpus luteum were all affected by the steroids. In the ovaries of the control groups, well-developed corpus luteum was observed. In the treated groups, the cortical stroma was occupied by ovarian interstitial tissue. The females treated with steroids presented estral acyclicity. The use of nandrolone decanoate, whether associated with physical effort or not, affected the morphological pattern of the ovaries.


----------



## Andrikos (Sep 10, 2008)

Linny said:


> I have found this to be a very interesting read, but it is very hard to digest written in these terms. What does the part in bold translate to in Layman's terms?
> 
> Thanks


Linny unfortunately some stuff cannot be explained in Layman's terms , if you get the general idea from the study it's fine I think. Glad you found it interesting.


----------



## Lois_Lane (Jul 21, 2009)

Have any females tried slin/gh pwo at lets say 5iu each?


----------



## Lou (Jul 27, 2008)

Andrikos said:


> I m posting this here so everything is concetrated to this thread.
> 
> Administration of the anabolic androgenic steroid nandrolone decanoate to female rats causes alterations in the morphology of their uterus and a reduction in reproductive capacity
> 
> ...





Linny said:


> I have found this to be a very interesting read, but it is very hard to digest written in these terms. What does the part in bold translate to in Layman's terms?
> 
> Thanks


Hey Linny

It's the conclusion highlighted in blue that will give you the answer, however be mindfull this piece of information is only the abstract from the full research document and has been pulled from pulled from the net......the full document will cost big money.


----------



## Andrikos (Sep 10, 2008)

Lou said:


> Hey Linny
> 
> It's the conclusion highlighted in blue that will give you the answer,* however be mindfull this piece of information is only the abstract from the full research document and has been pulled from pulled from the net.*.....the full document will cost big money.


What's wrong with abstracts? It's not some random part of the text , that' s why we have abstracts anyway , they are telling the story by giving the take home message , maybe it wouldn't be bugging you if it had other conclusions drawn.

And what's wrong that it has been pulled from the net ? :confused1: It's not to be trusted ? :lol:s


----------



## Lou (Jul 27, 2008)

Andrikos said:


> What's wrong with abstracts? It's not some random part of the text , that' s why we have abstracts anyway , they are telling the story by giving the take home message , maybe it wouldn't be bugging you if it had other conclusions drawn.
> 
> And what's wrong that it has been pulled from the net ? :confused1: It's not to be trusted ? :lol:s


Why are you so defensive? 

The abstract only gives the highlights of the research carried out and you cannot make a serious judgement on Deca use based on essentially just two lines of information from the conclusion from a lab run experiment on rats. :cool2:

Why would the conclusions bother me......I have used Deca to great effect with very little sides


----------



## Andrikos (Sep 10, 2008)

Lou said:


> Why are you so defensive?
> 
> The abstract only gives the highlights of the research carried out and you cannot make a serious judgement on Deca use based on essentially just two lines of information from the conclusion from a lab run experiment on rats. :cool2:
> 
> Why would the conclusions bother me......I have used Deca to great effect with very little sides


If you think there is a catch or a counter point to the conclusion drawn in the abstract I can e-mail the pdf to your e-mail if you like .Or to anyone that is.

Fortunately rats are not very far from humans on how they respond to AAS , that's why this research was held anyway.

If you expect to see similar studies on women with the doses used there are not many chances as it won't make the study much ethical.

I could care less about how much sides you report you had with deca or any other drug as you are much more biased on the AAS use thing than all men here. Try not to see what only pleases your pro bias and we can then just discuss.


----------



## Linny (Jun 23, 2009)

Lou said:


> Hey Linny
> 
> It's the conclusion highlighted in blue that will give you the answer, however be mindfull this piece of information is only the abstract from the full research document and has been pulled from pulled from the net......the full document will cost big money.


I'm passing child bearing age so this will not be a problem 



Andrikos said:


> Fortunately rats are not very far from humans on how they respond to AAS , that's why this research was held anyway.
> 
> If you expect to see similar studies on women with the doses used there


Do you have any more test results on female rats regarding AAS? I find it interesting, even though I have to read several times in a quite room to digest


----------



## Lou (Jul 27, 2008)

Linny said:


> I'm passing child bearing age so this will not be a problem


You and me both :lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## Beklet (May 13, 2005)

Lou said:


> You and me both :lol: :lol: :lol:


And some of us never wanted kids anyway, so the changes wouldn't be an issue


----------



## Wee G1436114539 (Oct 6, 2007)

Andrikos said:


> Linny unfortunately some stuff cannot be explained in Layman's terms.....


Bull****, lol. You either don't know or can't be bothered. Everything can ALWAYS be explained in laymans terms. Seeing as I am Layman, I will make a stab at it.

*The female rats receiving the ND showed an enhanced rate of weight gain and the myometrium thickness of*

*
their uteri was significantly increased, while the endometrium was significantly thinner. *

*
*

*
Furthermore, ND caused a significant proportion of*

*
the treated animals to display tortuous and irregularly branching endometrial glands*

*
*

*
...As well as a lack of the physiologically normal infiltration of eosinophilic leukocytes into the endometrium (endometrial eosinophilic homing).*

Lin,

first we need some background!

The Endometrium is the mucous membrane lining your uterus. It thickens during your menstrual cycle in preparation for a fertillized egg to embed in it and develop into an embryo. If this doesn't happen, the part of the endometrium called the functionalis is "shed" ie your get your period.

The other part of the endometrium (the basalis) is retained all the time and every cycle it basically rebuilds a new functionalis, ready for the possibility of a fertilized egg coming along 

A lot of the hormonal changes that occur during your cycle are there to make sure that the functionalis is built "right" and "on time"!

Early in your cycle you get an increase in estrogen levels, which causes proliferation of the functionalis from stem cells within the basalis (it starts to grow). It also gets it blood supply from spiral arteries from the basalis.

Part of this growth process is proliferation of endometrial glands in the functionalis.

These glands secrete molecules that are required for the growth and development of a conceptus (a conceptus is what we call the "baby" before the cells have even reached a fetal level of developement...this is the REALLY early stage of pregnancy).

Without these glands being present and in working order, you will not get a successful pregnancy.

Early on, in the follicular phase of your cycle, these glands are long and narrow in shape.

In the luteal phase (ie at ovulation) they change shape. They become tortous (twisty!) and the lumens (hollow spaces within them ) become much bigger. This is because they are now actively secreting glycogen, mucous and other substances, to make the functionalis ready to receive the egg.

After this point you havent been impregnated (about day 23/24 of cycle) the endometrium will start to get smaller as estrogen and progesterone levels drop, thrombix levels in the endometrium increase and this causes vasoconstriction of the spiral arteries to begin.

This just means that the blood supply to the functionalis is cut off, and subsequently the cells undergo apoptosis (die off) alllowing the functionalis to be shed (you get your period)! The blood you shed is primarily from the ruptured spiral arteries that were supplying the functionalis. This is happening around about days 25/26 - day 28 of the cycle.

PHEW!!!!

So, thats the endometrium and endometrial glands.

Now - the bits in bold...

*The female rats receiving the ND showed an enhanced rate of weight gain and the myometrium thickness of*

*
their uteri was significantly increased, while the endometrium was significantly thinner.*

In the Rats receiving nandrolone, the endometrium was much thinner. Right away this tells you that the development of the functionalis has not not gone to plan as it is the growth of the functionalis that "thickens" the endometrium normally. So, your egg does not have the same place to "bed down" as it normally would.

*ND caused a significant proportion of*

*
the treated animals to display tortuous and irregularly branching endometrial glands*

Remember that the glands began to change shape and become tortous ANYWAY in your normal cycle, during the luteal phase which begins when you ovulate. This is because they have become more active and are secreting. Now, if this si happening at the right time it's fine. If it is happening at random times (away from ovulation) because of the deca, not so great. It indictes that the presence of the deca is changing the normal course of your cycle (duh...of course it is!!!).

*...As well as a lack of the physiologically normal infiltration of eosinophilic leukocytes into the endometrium (endometrial eosinophilic homing).*

*
*

Eosinophilic leukocytes are just white blood cells 

White blood cells are your immune systems hunter killer cells - they attack and destroy pathogens in your body. Normally where they go and when is dicatted by chemoattractants called chemokines. These guys are basically flag wavers that shout "the infection / problem is over here **** nuts" until the white blood cells get there and do the work required. The fact that they fail to make their way to the endometrium would indicate that the endometrium is not properly secreting chemoattractants, another clue that it is not functioning normally. Normally the chemokines are secreted so leukocytes come on over to make sure that the endometrium is free from any nasties and kept clean and tidy for any incoming egg!

Hope this all helps, sorry for the long post,

G.


----------



## Cheese (Jul 7, 2009)

Brilliant post mate thanks for taking the time to type that up!

:thumbup1: Reps on the way!!

That right there is them laymen's terms we was talking about.


----------



## Jem (Mar 5, 2009)

Who says it cannot be explained in laymans terms - thanks wee g

reps !


----------



## Wee G1436114539 (Oct 6, 2007)

Me = Layman so probably has a few errors but I'll stand my the gist of it. Ta for reps!


----------



## Lou (Jul 27, 2008)

Wee G said:


> Bull****, lol. You either don't know or can't be bothered. Everything can ALWAYS be explained in laymans terms. Seeing as I am Layman, I will make a stab at it.
> 
> *The female rats receiving the ND showed an enhanced rate of weight gain and the myometrium thickness of*
> 
> ...


Fabulous post WEE G!!!!!!!


----------



## Beklet (May 13, 2005)

Wee G said:


> In the Rats receiving nandrolone, the endometrium was much thinner. Right away this tells you that the development of the functionalis has not not gone to plan as it is the growth of the functionalis that "thickens" the endometrium normally. So, your egg does not have the same place to "bed down" as it normally would.
> 
> G.


Which, strangely enough, is one of the things the contraceptive pill does, which, as Lys already pointed out is also a steroid, just different hormones in different proportions


----------



## ElfinTan (May 23, 2008)

Thanks Mr Layman:thumb:


----------



## Linny (Jun 23, 2009)

Wee G said:


> Bull****, lol. You either don't know or can't be bothered. Everything can ALWAYS be explained in laymans terms. Seeing as I am Layman, I will make a stab at it.
> 
> *The female rats receiving the ND showed an enhanced rate of weight gain and the myometrium thickness of*
> 
> ...


You Sir are a Gent :thumbup1: I understand fully now

Thank you very much

Linda x


----------



## MissBC (Apr 29, 2008)

Hey

Wondering what are girls experiences with A.I's and serms leading up to a show?


----------



## BigTin (Jul 28, 2009)

Yes - good question BC. Are these types of compounds particularly useful in reducing the problem areas of hips/thighs/bum? trying to get bottom half as lean as top without losing the muscle is a nightmare!!!


----------



## Andrikos (Sep 10, 2008)

Wee G said:


> Bull****, lol. You either don't know or can't be bothered. Everything can ALWAYS be explained in laymans terms. Seeing as I am Layman, I will make a stab at it.


 I am far than an expert on the subject nor did I say I am , I did bother to post the study you explained , and that's my contribution for what is worth .Good explanation there , I would rep you if you was a bit less arrogant.

Take it easy man this is not a contest of knowledge and expertise , we are contributing not competing against each other.


----------



## Wee G1436114539 (Oct 6, 2007)

Andrikos,

Sorry but your reply to Lin where you stated that you were "sorry but somethings just can't be explained in laymans terms" was utterly condescending and typical of the kind of post someone makes where they don't have ****ing clue what they are posting up but don't want to admit it.

If you had replied that you were just popping up the study cause it related to female AAS use but didn't really understand it then I would not have been so snappy in my response.

The fact that you are posting up info you don't understand and then using to scaremonger with, and when questioned on it you reply that it "can't be explained in laymans terms" as if you DO understand but there was no chance that Lin could, shows all the reasons why you really shouldn't be "contributing" to this thread at all.


----------



## Andrikos (Sep 10, 2008)

Wee G said:


> Andrikos,
> 
> Sorry but your reply to Lin where you stated that you were "sorry but somethings just can't be explained in laymans terms" was utterly condescending and typical of the kind of post someone makes where they don't have ****ing clue what they are posting up but don't want to admit it.
> 
> ...


If I wasn't contributing you wouldn't have the opportunity to make that good explanation . This discussion has no meaning , quit playing mod please.


----------



## BigDom86 (Jul 27, 2008)

its pretty easy to go on wikipidea and type in eosinophils to see what they are to be fair. like anything, if you dont understand it just wiki it lol


----------



## Zara-Leoni (Mar 12, 2007)

Wee G said:


> Andrikos,
> 
> Sorry but your reply to Lin where you stated that you were "sorry but somethings just can't be explained in laymans terms" was utterly condescending and typical of the kind of post someone makes where they don't have ****ing clue what they are posting up but don't want to admit it.
> 
> ...


Thanks for your explanation G.... Nice to see a guy commenting on this subject who actually knows what he is talking about and isn't just quoting random info copy & pasted off the net to try scare us into seeing the error of our ways :wink:

There ARE certain people who ought not to comment in this particular thread as, as DB pointed out at the start, this thread is to educate and inform, not to criticise, condemn or attempt to scarmonger.



Andrikos said:


> If I wasn't contributing you wouldn't have the opportunity to make that good explanation . This discussion has no meaning , quit playing mod please.


As always Andrikos, on the back foot when called out for criticising female AAS use... no matter how tactfully or subtley you attempt to do so, every post you make on the subject always errs towards the negative.


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## GBLiz (Jul 9, 2004)

on the babies thing.... i was attempting to research this issue (i didnt realise i had already accidentally got pregnant already lol)...could find VERY little info other than that overexposure to testosterone can cause the womb to atrophy. However we all have heard of the 'pregnant man'- the woman who took enough testosterone to become 'male' , yet still carried a baby to term.....

i did find out though that exposure to male sex hormones during foetal development can be a problem- it can cause some gender anomolies- i dont have the original source , but a male foetus can react to the excess of testosterone by turning female . Much like how fish are becoming gender ambiguous from pollution in the seas etc. Sorry i cant be more detailed but i do remember panicking more than a little as i was only a month off cycle when i conceived!


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## GBLiz (Jul 9, 2004)

btw this thread makes me want to use gear again lol

must....resist...!!! (i cant bear the acne!)


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## Zara-Leoni (Mar 12, 2007)

GBLiz said:


> on the babies thing.... i was attempting to research this issue (i didnt realise i had already accidentally got pregnant already lol)...could find VERY little info other than that overexposure to testosterone can cause the womb to atrophy. However we all have heard of the 'pregnant man'- the woman who took enough testosterone to become 'male' , yet still carried a baby to term.....
> 
> *i did find out though that exposure to male sex hormones during foetal development can be a problem- *it can cause some gender anomolies- i dont have the original source , but a male foetus can react to the excess of testosterone by turning female . Much like how fish are becoming gender ambiguous from pollution in the seas etc. Sorry i cant be more detailed but i do remember panicking more than a little as i was only a month off cycle when i conceived!


I've often wondered about this tbh.... also whether if you did accidently get pregnant while on, whether the oestrogen and progesterone levels in the body would be high enough to support the pregnancy and support healthy foetal development?


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## Zara-Leoni (Mar 12, 2007)

I've sat back and waited to see how this thread would develop before commenting further... lol

Suppose I can join in more now.

I think some ppl may be shocked or disapprove of my dosages etc... can I just respectfully remind ppl that its my life, my body and I am NOT advising ANYONE to do the same.

Things I have used in the past:

(note - just because they are on the list dnt necessarily mean they'e been used extensively... some things I started/took one shot and didn't like so stopped...)

Can I just say as well... Good and bad experiences here - I have chosen to follow advice from various people - some of it good, some of it bad. I DO NOT recommend anyone to copy.... I've been a bit gung ho at times and learned my lesson lol.

*Anavar *

- up to 50mgs/day but most commonly 20mgs/day.

Absolutely fine even at higher doses. I find this on its own isn't strong enough to stop periods in me but even 10mgs/day does in some other women. No side effects that I am aware of re skin/hair etc. Strength increases slightly. Muscles feel harder. All in all I find it ok but not earth shattering. I use this with GH offseason and when dieting in cycles of usually around 8 weeks.

*Winstrol (oral) - 25mgs/day*

Hated it. Never again lol. When washing my hair noticed more coming out in shower than usual, and my throat hurt on it. Didn't use it long enough to comment on benefits. Was added in near the very end of my first show prep.

*Proviron*

Awful.... I dont recommend it and wont ever use it again. This prob gave me worst side effects of anything. Within days of starting throat gets sore and voice goes funny. Clit enlarges on it slightly but thankfully goes back to normal quickly. I used this during first show prep one tablet per day (25mgs?) but was using several different things and didnt know what was causing what. I had tunnel vision that year and tbh didnt care what I did or how it affected me... then in 2009 I started using it again and stopped within days as that at that time I was only using anavar and very quickly became aware that this was the culprit during my 2007 prep.

*Masteron*

I think I had one 75mg shot of this towards the end of my 2007 prep... was using other stuff... cant really comment on it tbh. Used it on someone else's advice took one shot and decided wasn't actually needed.

*Deca*

I like this tbh. Don't suffer really any sides. Skin etc is fine... muscles feel harder, am definately stronger. 100mgs/week or 10days is plenty.

*Equipoise*

Umm.... am a bit undecided on this one tbh. Definately stronger on it. Muscles fuller and harder. Tiny bit clit enlargement maybe? Appetite slightly increases. I have white blonde kinda very fine hair on face/cheeks which every female has... sometimes feel this increases on equipoise and being quite tanned its noticable... so for that reason its not a favourite. However it does disappear immediately I stop using it. Have used both 75mgs and 150mgs/week. 150 was too much..... Main experience of it was during show prep last year.

*Primo*

Nope... dont like. Strength shot up. Muscle went on fast. Skin was bad, hair was coming out in shower (not hairline but just generally). Downy hair on cheeks etc increased a little. Clit enlarges slightly. Side effects for me outweigh the benefits. Used it for 10 weeks before my show prep started last year at 100mgs/week.

*Tren*

Had a shot of short acting tren one week before each of my shows one year. Another (exceptionally succesful and very feminine) figure girl has done same with great success. I did feel it helped with lean-ness and fullness definately... unaware of any sides tbh. Only took 2 75ml shots though so maybe why. DEFINATELY would not recommend for ongoing use! Seems useful for this purpose but tbh unsure if I would do it again.

*Nolvadex*

Used to use this a lot. Dont bother anymore because quite frankly I am not convinced it does me any good at all. Basically.... nolvadex deals with oestrogen produced by the body, arimadex deals with oestrogen created via aromatisation. Therefor as a pre-menoupausal female, theoretically, nolvadex should be useful (and arimadex only useful if you were taking enough aas for aromatisation to be an issue). However the reality is having used it on and off for around 4 years at 25-50mgs/day I can honestly say that I dont think I have been aware of it being beneficial to me at all. I know another very sucessful figure girl who swears by it but maybe its good for some and not others. Could be that my natural oestrogen levels aren't massively high or something anyway? I've used it on its own, with anavar and on bigger courses and the result (or lack of) has always been the same tbh.

*T3 *

Love it lol. Use typically 25-50mcgs per day have used (rarely) up to 75. Feel increase in temperature and sometimes stronger heartbeat but other than that no ill effects I am aware of. Be interested to get my thyroid checked as I find weight loss exceptionally difficult without this....

*T4*

Useful in conjunction with T3... personally find it very impotent on its own.

*Clenbuterol*

Works very well on me for fat loss and I tolerate it well... unfortunately I cant use it when doing nails as I need a steady hand! Shakes hang around even the day after use so thats a problem. Is originally an asthma drug and I do have asthma so possibly it helps me with cardio too lol. Before doing nails I used up to 160mcg/day and fat literally melted off me though I was always hot.

However... I was once given 40mcg tablets by someone when had been getting 20mcg tablets... only I didn't know they were 40mcg..... As a result I took 320mcg/day for weeks without realising. I lost a LOT of weight very fast... and didn't die. Quite remarkable really...

*Ephedrine*

Not keen. I use ECA tablets now. I tend to be ok on Eph or ECA tablets for a couple of weeks then I start getting really bad tempered and snappy. If I dont take them for a long time, the first couple of days back can be very unpleasant with huge crashes when they wear of where I literally HAVE to sleep or I will pass out. Its not a nice feeling and makes me feel rough and ill as hell.

*GH*

Yeah.... ok I think. Hygetropin is good. Have tried this at 4iu EOD and my hands hurt... went down to 2iu and they were still sore so I dropped it right to 1iu EOD but the pain @ 2iu could have been left over from the higher dose I started on tbh. Cant get that now and have been using generic blue tops. In all honestly no matter how much I use I never get the same feeling so not convinced its all that great.

I do think though that a combination of GH and anavar on and off throughout the last year has helped me to keep gains I have made without having to resort to anything stronger.

Summary..... I've used a lot more than A) I've needed to and B) I'd recommend to anyone else to get to where I am. With hindsight I'd have used a lot less but hindsight is 20/20 eh? And like I said before... Its my body to make these decisions/take these risks with.

Reaslistically I've been lucky to come out as unscathed as I have. My voice HAS changed somewhat... tiny bit deeper and my singing voice is now crap :tongue: Oh and I cant shout...?? :confused1: Other than that I have no outward physical side effects. As discussed by some other girls... clit enlargement CAN happen. Personally I find by about 20% but for me always goes back to normal when off. On courses involving stronger compounds I must get an oestrogen rebound when I come off as I usually have few minor skin problems then but the clear up quick-ish.

Throughout this prep I've taken only anavar and GH and very recently added low dose of deca every 10 days. Thats the max I would do now... took a lot of trial and error to get here but hey... day without learning is a day wasted right?


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## Jacko89 (Mar 4, 2009)

Thanks for posting that Zara and your honesty, this is all very very interesting.


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## Wee G1436114539 (Oct 6, 2007)

Nice post Z, reps.


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## Linny (Jun 23, 2009)

This post is being made by an anonymous poster who uses UKM, but can't post because of work reasons 

first course WINNY

Loved it! I grew like a weed, muscles nice and hard, very strong very quickly. Approx 8-10week course and used 10mg a day capsules.

I used liquid clen with winny but the downside to clen and to anyone that does a lot of cardio is it affects the CV system i.e my fitness level dropped and so i stopped using it. I didnt get any shakes from it but did have probs with sleep.

SIDE EFFECTS from above besides the CV hit from the clen - Spots from the winny (like liz i hate it) but v odd, as a teenager i only got spots on my face but on aas i only get them on my neck and tops of shoulders but they cleared up about 4 weeks after cycle stopped.

2) NPP

Injectable 50mg every 7 days, ok great drug again for growth but will never ever use it again! About 5 weeks in i got a rash on back which developed into quite bad spots, stopped immediately and this took about 6 weeks to clear up. I also got the soft hair on my face but like zara this disappeared when i stopped using it. I also used GH during this cycle which cause a bit of joint ache but otherwise no other sides

SIDE AFFECTS As i said SPOTS the worst i have had ever and will never touch this drug again. I believe if you are prone to breakouts of any kind (which i am) then be very careful using this drug. If not then for growth, big strength improvements and no emotional sides, this is for you 

3) Anavar

this is my third cycle and so far so good, im only using 5mg a day (to see how my skin reacts). My strength has improved already on this v low dose and im also using T3 - no sides im aware of.

Something that doesnt seem to have been touched on in the thread is emotional reaction to aas. For me Winny made me snappy and aggressive and NPP made me cold and quite switched off, this is my personal experience and of course everyone is diff.

All the courses i have used have increased my libido. 

Honestly? i would like to use higher dosages, for the strength gains, not particularly bothered about growing in size but i know my skin would react negatively to it as from experience that is what has happened previously.

To summarise I have had no issues with my voice or hairloss but always with spots! Emotional sides yes, no problem with periods at all on or off cycle. Hair growth increases in all areas, i could get an a grade in shaving


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## adonis (Mar 26, 2009)

This is a great thread, and thanks to all the ladies for being so honest. Im happy that people have revealed that aas are used by figure girls as well as female bodybuilders.

It takes nothing away from anyones achievements if they use aas wether male or female, we all use them to push ourselves further and harder to achieve great things that 99% of the population are too lazy to even think about :thumbup1:


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## Zara-Leoni (Mar 12, 2007)

The emotional aspect isn't something I commented on either...

Basically, I find aas use calms me down a LOT.

Oestrogen has a horrible effect on me lol... I can get emotional, ie get overly upset/tearful over minor trivial things like films, tv programmes etc. I worry more and get anxious about everything inc personal relationships, I lose my temper very easily (Miss Road-Rage UK lol... :whistling: ) etc.

On AAS I don't have these problems. I am chilled out, relaxed, easy-going... I don't worry much about what people say or think, I am much more patient, I don't stress about personal relationships... if they go tits up I just shrug and move on lol.

Even when I come off it takes a while for the evil oestrogen to get hold of me again... even though periods always restart pretty much immediately, it takes a good while before the dreaded PMT starts up again lol.


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## Nytol (Jul 16, 2005)

Zara-Leoni said:


> The emotional aspect isn't something I commented on either...
> 
> Basically, I find aas use calms me down a LOT.
> 
> ...


Some of the things you speak of could be considered emotional detachment, as much as being clam.

Not caring about relationships ending etc, is not a normal reaction.

I found this on tren, not only was I very nasty, but I was totally detached, I did not give a f*ck about anything or anyone.

The nastiness was just an enhancement of my personality, but I am normally quite an emotional person, so that was a strange feeling for me.

My body loved it, no physical sides at all, but mentally it was bad, I shall never use it again, unfortunately :sad:


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## Linny (Jun 23, 2009)

It's been 7 wks since I did my last Primo shot of the course

Period only just returned, & voice only just got back to normal, when I say normal I mean I couldn't sing high pitched it was painful, now I'm ok again


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## ElfinTan (May 23, 2008)

With regards to emotional changes I have spoken about this with Paul and we both agree it doesn't really affect me that much. I would say there is a hightened mental focus but this could be due to the strength gains giving me a buzz....Just a bit more Rarrrrrrr! I do feel slight changes but I can usually identify them as hormonal (even normal 'lady' hormonal stuff) influenced and just kind of ride the wave....it's never a storm...never really snappy or overly sensitive. I have never 'suffered' from PMT's but I can tell when my period is due because of changes in thought processes. The same goes when on a cycle! because it is so slight it is actually hard to explain.


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## Zara-Leoni (Mar 12, 2007)

Nytol said:


> Some of the things you speak of could be considered emotional detachment, as much as being calm.
> 
> *Not caring about relationships ending etc, is not a normal reaction.*
> 
> ...


Its not so much that I dont care... more that it doesn't torture me as much as it normally would. I'm pretty numb and blunt outwardly but actually very soft inside and hurt very easily.... I find when on a course things are easier to deal with... I am able to shrug minor things off and the bigger things... well I still feel as I normally would but its like a diluted version if that makes sense? ie something that would normally hurt a lot, hurts a bit less, to the extent its much more manageable.

The first course I did was my first show prep and I was able to walk away from a relationship of a couple of years that really was not healthy for me, but previously I'd been too emotional etc to bring myself to actually do it. It was so easy to do in the end... and I managed it very calmly and with no fuss or drama.

Yes though... there IS definately emotional detachement with people who mean less to me or whom I dont know as well. Really not sure its a bad thing though as I am still loving and caring to those that matter


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## Zara-Leoni (Mar 12, 2007)

ElfinTan said:


> With regards to emotional changes I have spoken about this with Paul and we both agree it doesn't really affect me that much. I would say there is a hightened mental focus but this could be due to the strength gains giving me a buzz....Just a bit more Rarrrrrrr! I do feel slight changes but I can usually identify them as hormonal (even normal 'lady' hormonal stuff) influenced and just kind of ride the wave....it's never a storm...never really snappy or overly sensitive. I have never 'suffered' from PMT's but *I can tell when my period is due because of changes in thought processes.* The same goes when on a cycle! because it is so slight it is actually hard to explain.


Funny enough I am exact same... I find myself thinking differently and then I know....


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## ElfinTan (May 23, 2008)

Zara-Leoni said:


> Funny enough I am exact same... I find myself thinking differently and then I know....


Like a little...'Ahhhhh' moment! :thumbup1:

Do you find a difference as to whether you are dieting or not tho?


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## Zara-Leoni (Mar 12, 2007)

ElfinTan said:


> Like a little...'Ahhhhh' moment! :thumbup1:
> 
> Do you find a difference as to whether you are dieting or not tho?


Well when dieting am generally on a course so any pmt type symptoms at start will be lessened then usually by end they've stopped anyway.

However I did recently mistake feeling mega shyte for diet when it later turned out to be pmt haha :whistling: :tongue:


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## yummymummy79 (Apr 9, 2008)

This is all very interesting, as I often wondered who may have been using what to get where they are. Personally, the thought of using anything scares me! Maybe I'm just a wuss, or more likely that I don't want the 'ideal' body enough to go through some of the potential side effects mentioned. But for those who do and are willing to go through some stuff to get it then fair play. I've never taken any form of drug whatsoever in the past so maybe it is a bigger thing for me than other people?

The only thing that I could possibly consider would be something to aid with fat burning, but as yet I haven't tried 'natural' methods with enough commitment or intensity to know how far I can get without any aid.

I do have some concerns about the contraceptive pill I use (Dianette) hindering gains I could be making, but it helps with my (very annoying and potentially very limiting) skin condition so tbh I'd rather have no annoying lumpy skin issues and be a bit less ripped I think.


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## JB74 (Jan 6, 2008)

Zara-Leoni said:


> I've sat back and waited to see how this thread would develop before commenting further... lol
> 
> Suppose I can join in more now.
> 
> ...


quality post zara :thumb:


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## ElfinTan (May 23, 2008)

Zara-Leoni said:


> Well when dieting am generally on a course so any pmt type symptoms at start will be lessened then usually by end they've stopped anyway.
> 
> However I did recently mistake feeling mega shyte for diet when it later turned out to be pmt haha :whistling: :tongue:


No I meant do you feel any different when just on AA's in comparison to

AA's + diet? I was just wondering how much dieting would be a factor in hormonal/mood/lipstick pitbull syndrome!


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## Zara-Leoni (Mar 12, 2007)

ElfinTan said:


> No I meant do you feel any different when just on AA's in comparison to
> 
> AA's + diet? I was just wondering how much dieting would be a factor in hormonal/mood/lipstick pitbull syndrome!


Hmmm...thats hard to answer because this year I feel completely different ie I dont feel as bad on diet this year. Also my course when dieting is bigger than anything I do off season as well.....

Previous diets have made me very spaced out and narky.... this year I am definately better. Something to do with Lee sorting out the fats that were missing in every previous diet I feel


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## ba baracuss (Apr 26, 2004)

Zara-Leoni said:


> *Nolvadex*
> 
> Used to use this a lot. Dont bother anymore because quite frankly I am not convinced it does me any good at all. Basically.... nolvadex deals with oestrogen produced by the body, arimadex deals with oestrogen created via aromatisation. Therefor as a pre-menoupausal female, theoretically, nolvadex should be useful (and arimadex only useful if you were taking enough aas for aromatisation to be an issue). However the reality is having used it on and off for around 4 years at 25-50mgs/day I can honestly say that I dont think I have been aware of it being beneficial to me at all. I know another very sucessful figure girl who swears by it but maybe its good for some and not others. Could be that my natural oestrogen levels aren't massively high or something anyway? I've used it on its own, with anavar and on bigger courses and the result (or lack of) has always been the same tbh.


I don't mean to be overly pedantic here but could you clarify why you think it should be theoretically useful for yourself or other women trainers? What were you hoping to get from it?

Nolva is a SERM which basically means it binds to estrogen receptors, particularly in the breast area, and in doing so stops estrogen from doing so - that's why men use it to stop gyno, so I can only imagine it would shrink your breasts. Is that what you wanted from it because I'm struggling to see what else it would do.


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## Wee G1436114539 (Oct 6, 2007)

Could it possibly be that reducing estrogen levels relative to androgen levels = more favourable hormone balance for muscle growth? Just a wild shot in the dark, of course...


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## Lou (Jul 27, 2008)

You would be right there.....its very useful during cutting. I have found that taking Nolvadex 'levels' me out hormonally speaking ie not suffering the mood swings that can occur as during PMT.


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## BigDom86 (Jul 27, 2008)

but nolvadex doesnt reduce estrogen levels in the body? it just prevents it from binding breast tissue? wouldnt an AI be better, although only really postmenopausally when women are producing oestrogen due to aromatization more from the adrenal gland?


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## GBLiz (Jul 9, 2004)

im like zara- i cant shout any more or sing / talk with much range. Not much good for telling funny-voice bedtime stories and nursery rhymes , which i do regret somewhat. You dont think about that at the time.

on the mood thing, i found MUCH less diet-rage when dieting natural.


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## Linny (Jun 23, 2009)

BigDom86 said:


> but nolvadex doesnt reduce estrogen levels in the body? it just prevents it from binding breast tissue? wouldnt an AI be better, although only really postmenopausally when women are producing oestrogen due to aromatization more from the adrenal gland?


Nolva from my understanding fakes out the receptors from the ovaries so you you interrupt the estrogen cycle. So this would effect the impact of estrogen on pre-menopausal women e.g. estrogen-pattern fat deposits around the glutes, hips & thighs. If you are not pre-disposed to fatty deposits in this area, and your fat is evenly distributed then what is the point in taking it.

I know I used it, but I was a d1ck I took it because I was told this is what women do, I didn't read up on the information myself, therefore I wouldn't bother with it in the future.

Everyone is different some women may see results from it.


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## Nytol (Jul 16, 2005)

Nolva has nothing to do with the ovaries or estrogen cycle, it merely occupies the estrogen receptor, not allowing actually estrogen to bind, quite specific to breast tissue and quite pointless for female BB'ers IMO.


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## Linny (Jun 23, 2009)

Nytol said:


> Nolva has nothing to do with the ovaries or estrogen cycle, it merely occupies the estrogen receptor, not allowing actually estrogen to bind, quite specific to breast tissue and quite pointless for female BB'ers IMO.


This is the site I have been doing some research on Matt *http://forums.rxmuscle.com/showthread.php?t=9523&highlight=arimidex*


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## Nytol (Jul 16, 2005)

Who ever that bird is Lin, she is talking total bollocks, trying to sound more intelligent than she is, have a look on Wikipedia at the various drugs, it is very simple.

I hate people like that, as the majority will read that and assume she knows what she is talking about as she sounds 'scientific'.

Anthony Roberts spouted crap like that for years and got paid for it.


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## Linny (Jun 23, 2009)

This is why women find it so bloody difficult to find good info....LOL thanks Mr Matt will do


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## BOK (Mar 9, 2007)

Loving this thread, thanks for the honesty girls. Very interesting read.

Bok


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## Linny (Jun 23, 2009)

Ladies I would be interested to see what you have used/tried for hair removal on face?

It's only downy hair but it's over my top lip and my daughter has noticed it so I'm not being a mirror lurker 

A few people have said don't wax has it stimulates the hair follicles more.

Some have suggested shave but I don't like the bloody idea of this one.

Some suggested laser is the best way to go

At the ladies seminar a cream was suggested which cost £60 but I can't remember what it was called?


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## Kezz (Sep 3, 2007)

veet... lol x


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## DB (Oct 31, 2003)

Kezz said:


> veet... lol x


I do hope you're not taking the p1ss? Seeing as this is a serious thread for the competitive women, we don't want childish comments and more people being banned from this thread and scaring the women off from being open and asking questions they have been afraid from in the past??

don't let a few dribblers ruin a good thread yeah mate????? :ban:

Linn- Laser has got to be the best option no? plus it's such a small area it'll be cheap as chips and done in about 4 sessions or so? :beer:


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## mick_the_brick (Oct 29, 2008)

DB said:


> Linn- Laser has got to be the best option no? plus it's such a small area it'll be cheap as chips and done in about 4 sessions or so? :beer:


Baz - is this a permanent thing mate??

Or do you need to revisit it?


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## Linny (Jun 23, 2009)

DB said:


> Linn- Laser has got to be the best option no? plus it's such a small area it'll be cheap as chips and done in about 4 sessions or so? :beer:


Yeah a good friend of mine suggested laser,I was under impression this was expensive? But I know it gets fantastic results and it's permanent which is what is needed.

Thanks Baz  x


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## mick_the_brick (Oct 29, 2008)

Cool so it's permanent - thanks Linny


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## Unit_69 (Jul 9, 2009)

Linny why don't you look into threading, about £10 a session which last a month or so I think. I have a few female friends who do this. It's quite stingy apparantly but worth a look perhaps


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## Linny (Jun 23, 2009)

Unit_69 said:


> Linny why don't you look into threading, about £10 a session which last a month or so I think. I have a few female friends who do this. It's quite stingy apparantly but worth a look perhaps


Threading? never heard of that one.

Will take a look thank you


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## kitten30 (Sep 25, 2008)

Linny, I have been waxing for may years and facial waxing is sooo popular now! IME id doesn't encourage further haif growth, in many cases with my clients, the waxing actually causes the hair to grow less! It is totally down to the individual and the type of hair (ie downy, co****) Waxing is quick AND cheap which is also an added bonus as I wax clients that have undergone electrolysis for years and had lazer treatments but it has not been successful. Hope that helps hun xx


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## Linny (Jun 23, 2009)

kitten30 said:


> Linny, I have been waxing for may years and facial waxing is sooo popular now! IME id doesn't encourage further haif growth, in many cases with my clients, the waxing actually causes the hair to grow less! It is totally down to the individual and the type of hair (ie downy, co****) Waxing is quick AND cheap which is also an added bonus as I wax clients that have undergone electrolysis for years and had lazer treatments but it has not been successful. Hope that helps hun xx


I'm just a little worried with waxing because the ladies I've spoken to use gear & in them it has made it worse, this is why I wanted to ask. Thank you


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## DB (Oct 31, 2003)

mick_the_brick said:


> Cool so it's permanent - thanks Linny


Yeah u have a certain amount of sessions then its gone for good



Unit_69 said:


> Linny why don't you look into threading, about £10 a session which last a month or so I think. I have a few female friends who do this. It's quite stingy apparantly but worth a look perhaps


Threading is a shout, it's massive with the asian&arab women in London


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## Kezz (Sep 3, 2007)

DB said:


> I do hope you're not taking the p1ss? Seeing as this is a serious thread for the competitive women, we don't want childish comments and more people being banned from this thread and scaring the women off from being open and asking questions they have been afraid from in the past??
> 
> don't let a few dribblers ruin a good thread yeah mate????? :ban:
> 
> Linn- Laser has got to be the best option no? plus it's such a small area it'll be cheap as chips and done in about 4 sessions or so? :beer:


 nope i just thought it would work seeing as it was cream and certainly wasnt taking the ****.... i just put lol incase i was way off... and i dont like being called a dribbler sorry...


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## kitten30 (Sep 25, 2008)

No problem, I'd be interested to see how you get on whichever method you choose! I wax myself and it seems to keep the mootash under control (albeit blonde) lol xx


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## Magic Torch (May 30, 2005)

Laser is really good now, a guy at my gym had his whole back done in 2 sessions (and he is a big dude) think it was about £300 per session, your face will easy be done in half a session. It wont grow back either!


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## BigTin (Jul 28, 2009)

I have waxed and had electrolysis. Both worked well. Electrolysis was better but I favoured waxing as it is much cheaper. My understanding of laser is that it only works on dark hairs, and it is quite expensive. Plus there is no guarantee it wont grow back. You also need to factor in the use of steroids, as continuous use will only encourage the hair to carry on growing, so the success of such methods is only limited.

I haven't found waxing to make it any worse at all. Like you, it was just a down but the length became a problem.

One question I do have is, do any females experience worse hair growth with particular brands/labs or do you think its more to do with the ongoing use of AAS rather than a brand specific problem?


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## Lou (Jul 27, 2008)

Linny said:


> I'm just a little worried with waxing because the ladies I've spoken to use gear & in them it has made it worse, this is why I wanted to ask. Thank you


Hi Linny

I have had one face wax after I did the British and haven't had to do it since with the exception of the top lip - it hasn't grown back co4rser if that anecdotal evidence is of any use??? :thumb:

Laser treatment VERY expensive and not guaranteed permanent!


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## Linny (Jun 23, 2009)

BigTin said:


> I have waxed and had electrolysis. Both worked well. Electrolysis was better but I favoured waxing as it is much cheaper. My understanding of laser is that it only works on dark hairs, and it is quite expensive. Plus there is no guarantee it wont grow back. You also need to factor in the use of steroids, as continuous use will only encourage the hair to carry on growing, so the success of such methods is only limited.
> 
> I haven't found waxing to make it any worse at all. Like you, it was just a down but the length became a problem.
> 
> One question I do have is, do any females experience worse hair growth with particular brands/labs or do you think its more to do with the ongoing use of AAS rather than a brand specific problem?


It's just downy hair & the length is also the problem. It was on my jawline too but that has gone now, it's just my top lip. Hopefully when my next period starts maybe it'll sort itself out :whistling:

I've only had the downy hair on face from Primo, all other AAS has given me co****r hair in dark hair regions.



Lou said:


> Hi Linny
> 
> I have had one face wax after I did the British and haven't had to do it since with the exception of the top lip - it hasn't grown back co4rser if that anecdotal evidence is of any use??? :thumb:
> 
> Laser treatment VERY expensive and not guaranteed permanent!


That's what I was hoping to get from asking Lou thanks! I don't want to wax it to find I have a dark tash a few days later :lol:


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## ElfinTan (May 23, 2008)

If you are going to continue to use AA's I wouldn't bother with laser as there is a chance that you will just get facial hair again!

I am a massive fan of threading and used to get eye brows and top lip done when I lived in Beirut. There are plenty of places that do it now. I go to a place in the Triangle in town. It is becoming increasingly popular but as mentioned Asian and Arabic women have been threading for centuries along with 'sugaring' it is the main form of hair removal! I would see if you can find an asian beautician around Rockers and just try it!

The cream mentioned at the seminar is called Vaniqa, eflornithine 11.5%. Again this will work but if you use AA's then the chances are the hair will return.


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## MASSIVEMONSTER (May 28, 2006)

I knew a woman who used AAS before and still does now most likely and she used to use fairly high doses compared to what i`ve seen on her - she used a lot of prop and primo mainly.. but going up to 300mg total per week which seems treble what the women on here have stated. I think she would stay on for a large part of the year as never seemed to lose size and fullness.

As to her side effects i`m unsure, she had a deep voice, thats all I could tell! She was very strong - benching 100kg for reps, squatting 140kg for reps etc..


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## Linny (Jun 23, 2009)

ElfinTan said:


> If you are going to continue to use AA's I wouldn't bother with laser as there is a chance that you will just get facial hair again!
> 
> I am a massive fan of threading and used to get eye brows and top lip done when I lived in Beirut. There are plenty of places that do it now. I go to a place in the Triangle in town. It is becoming increasingly popular but as mentioned Asian and Arabic women have been threading for centuries along with 'sugaring' it is the main form of hair removal! I would see if you can find an asian beautician around Rockers and just try it!
> 
> The cream mentioned at the seminar is called Vaniqa, eflornithine 11.5%. Again this will work but if you use AA's then the chances are the hair will return.


Thanks Tan, been reading up on this, never heard of it before.

Typed it into Google and epicare came up, which looks kind of interesting! *
*






*
*

*
*Thanks for the name of the cream too chuck :thumbup1:

x


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## huwgarms (Jun 12, 2010)

cracking thread usefull info, thanks ladies/and gents


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## specialedition (Jun 18, 2012)

Hi there, Zara-Leoni!

My name is Lindsey and I'm contacting you from Special Edition Films. I'm doing some research into an idea about women who use steroids. I would love to speak to you, and anyone you know, about your experiences as part of my initial research. You can contact me at [email protected] or 0208 960 1446. Would love to speak to you. Thank you ever so much


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## ElfinTan (May 23, 2008)

I haven't posted on here for ages but I have just read through this section & I have to say it remains one of the most informative shared experiences of women using aa's on the internet. I have even re read things I had forgotten and it has helped me decide what to do next! Thanks to all the ladies for sharing, gents for contributing and mods for not letting this thread a free for all Billybigbllx to put in their noncontributal contributions.

T


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## Nicos93 (Jan 29, 2014)

Zara-Leoni said:


> If people want to ask I don't mind saying what I've used and how I found it.... but how it reacted with me may not be how it is in someone else.... eg I think I've prob used more than some girls but have suffered a remarkable lack of side effects lol.
> 
> So basically someone else doing same may not be so lucky.... or maybe could take more and still have no sides. I guess its the same with guys - some will suffer more at certain doses than others etc.
> 
> At the moment though I'm still highly sceptical after previous experiences on here so I've no desire to list what done in past etc... however if someone comes on and asks about a particular thing I dont mind saying how I found it, if I've tried it


Can women use anti estrogens to help drop water eg nolva. Aromasin? If so what are the possible sides effect thanks


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## Nicos93 (Jan 29, 2014)

Linny said:


> The cycles I use are between 10 - 12wks although when I diet for my 1st comp it'll be 15 - 20wk cycle with a good 6mths off.
> 
> Periods stop with me, sometimes drastically reduce BUT I find this too be a good thing. With my age anyway fertility is not an issue, periods always have returned to normal when cycle has stopped.
> 
> ...


What do you think on anti estrogens and women to drop water have you ever used them and if so what were your side effects ?


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