# Nolvadex verses Clomid for post cycle thearpy



## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

I stole this off of another site. Thought it was good reading and information

While practically similar compounds in structure, few people ever really consider Clomid and Nolva to be similar. Its not just a common myth in steroid circles, but even in the medical community. This misconception originates from their completely different uses. Nolvadex is most commonly used for the treatment of breast cancer in women, while clomid is generally considered a fertility aid. In bodybuilding circles, from day one, clomid has generally been used as post-cycle therapy and Nolvadex as an anti-estrogen.

But as I intend to demonstrate this is in essence the same. I believe the myth to have originated because Nolva is clearly a more powerful anti-estrogen, and the people selling clomid needed another angle to sell the stuff, so it was mostly used as a post-cycle aid. But few users really understand how clomid (and also Nolvadex, logically) works to bring back natural testosterone in the body after the conclusion of a cycle of androgenic anabolic steroids. After a cycle is over, the level of androgens in the body drop drastically. The body compensates with an overproduction of estrogen to keep steroid levels up. Estrogen as well inhibits the production of natural testosterone, and in the period between the return of natural testosterone and the end of a cycle, a lot of mass is lost. So its in everybody's best interest to bring back natural test as soon as humanly possible. Clomid and Nolvadex will reduce the post-cycle estrogen, so that a steroid deficiency is constated and the hypothalamus is stimulated to regenerate natural testosterone production in the body. That's basically how the mechanism works, nothing more, nothing less.

Both compounds are structurally alike, classified as triphenylethylenes. Nolvadex is clearly the stronger component of the two as it can achieve better results in decreasing overall estrogen with 20-40 mg a day, than clomid can in doses of 100-150 mg a day. A noteworthy difference. Triphenylethylenes are very mild estrogens that do not exert a lot, if any activity at the estrogen receptor, but are still highly attracted to it. As such they will occupy the receptor and keep it from binding estrogens. This means they do not actively work to reduce estrogen in the body like Proviron, Viratase or arimidex would (by competing for the aromatase enzyme), but that it blocks the receptor so that any estrogen in the body is basically inert, because it has no receptor to bind to.

This has advantages and disadvantages. The disadvantage is that when use is discontinued, the estrogen level is still the same and new problems will develop much sooner. The advantage is that it works much faster and has results sooner than with an aromatase blocker like Proviron or arimidex. Therefor, when problems such as gynocomastia occur during a cycle of steroids one will usually start 20 mg/day of Nolva or 100 mg/day of clomid straight away, in conjunction with some Proviron or arimidex. The proviron or arimidex will actively reduce estrogen while the clomid or Nolvadex will solve your ongoing problem straight away. This way, when use is discontinued there is no immediate rebound.

So which one should you use? Well personally, I'd have to say Nolvadex. Both as an on-cycle anti-estrogen and a post-cycle therapy. As an anti-estrogen its simply much stronger, demonstrated by the fact that better results are obtained with 20-40 mg than with 100-150 mg of clomid. For post-cycle, this plays a key role as well. It deactivates rebound estrogen much faster and more effective. But most importantly, Nolvadex has a direct influence on bringing back natural testosterone, where as clomid may actually have a slight negative influence. The reason being that Tamoxifen (as in Nolvadex) seems to increase the responsiveness of LH (luteinizing hormone) to GnRH (gonadtropin releasing hormone), whereas clomid seems to decrease the responsiveness a bit1.

Another noteworthy fact about Nolvadex is that it acts more potently as an estrogen in the liver. As you remember, I mentioned that clomiphene and tamoxifen are basically weak estrogens. Well, tamoxifen is apparently still quite potent in the liver. This offers us the positive benefits of this hormone in the liver, while avoiding its negative effects elsewhere in the body. As such Nolvadex can have a very positive impact on negative cholesterol levels2 in the body, and therefore too should be considered a better choice than clomid. It will not solve the problem of bad cholesterol levels during Steroid use, but will help to contain the problem to a larger degree.

Another reason why I promote the use of Nolvadex over Clomid post-cycle (as if being 3-4 times stronger and having more of a direct effect on restoring natural test wasn't enough) is because it's a lot safer. Not just because it improves lipid profiles, but also because it simply doesn't have the intrinsic side-effects that Clomid has. Clomid causes more acne for sure, but that's mainly because you need to use a 3-4 times higher dose. But Clomid seems to also affect the eyesight. Long-term clomid therapy causes irreversible changes in eyesight3 in users. Irreversible. For me that alone is reason enough to prefer Nolvadex.

Lastly, one should be aware that use of these compounds can reduce the gains made on steroids. Nolvadex more so than clomid, simply because it is stronger. Estrogen is responsible for a number of anabolic factors such as increasing growth hormone output, upgrading the androgen receptor and improving glucose utilization. This is why aromatizing steroids like testosterone are still best suited for maximum muscle gain. When reducing the estrogen levels, we therefore reduce the potential gains being made. For this reason one may opt to try clomid during a cycle instead of Nolvadex. Although I would imagine that the problem that needed solved would be of more concern, in which case Nolva remains the weapon of choice. It's a plain fact that there is a high correlation between gains and side-effects. Either you go for maximum gains and tolerate the side-effects, or you reduce the side-effects, and with it the gains. That's life, nothing is free.

Stacking and Use:

If problems of Gynocomastia or other estrogen related symptoms tend to pop up during a cycle the use of 20-30 mg of Nolvadex or 100 mg of Clomid daily should easily contain the problem, and be used until a few days after the problem subsides. For best results and the least amount of problems upon cessation it is best stacked with Proviron (50 mg) or arimidex (0.5 mg) for this duration as well. Its not advised that these products be ran concomitantly with the steroid for the entire duration of the stack, as this will reduce your gains. Instead cease the usage of anti-estrogens once the problem is contained, and should the problem resurface, simply recommence the use of the products in the same manner as described above.

Once a cycle of steroids is concluded one should always initiate a post-cycle therapy to help bring back natural testosterone as soon as possible. This will help you to retain the mass you gained. How this is done depends highly on the type of steroid used. If only orals were used, therapy should start immediately, even the last day of the stack. If short-acting esters or water-based injectables were used, therapy should commence within 4-7 days after last injection, and if long-acting esters were used then it should commence 1.5 to 2 weeks after the last injection was given. The length of the therapy will vary as well, from 3-5 weeks. The longer acting the product was, the longer therapy should be continued to make sure all suppressive factors are cleared before use of Clomid/Nolvadex is discontinued.

For best results, it is best stacked with HCG (Human Chorionic gonadotrophin), which functions as an LH analog and can help bring testicle size back up. HCG use starts the last week of a cycle, and on from there every 5-6 days (usually 1500-3000 IU) and discontinued 1.5 to weeks prior to the cessation of Nolvadex/clomid. The reason being that HCG itself is also suppressive of natural testosterone and should be out of the body before therapy is over, or it will inhibit natural testicle function. But I can not stress enough that HCG possibly plays a more important role in post-cycle therapy than clomid/Nolvadex. For Clomid and Nolvadex, doses are usually tapered down. Its best to start with 40-50 mg of Nolvadex or 150 mg of Clomid for the first week or the first two weeks, and then finish the program with 20-25 mg of Nolvadex or 100 mg of Clomid for an additional two weeks.

References

1 Vermeulen A., Comhaire F., Hormonal effects of an anti-estrogen, tamoxifen, in normal and oligospermic men, Fertil. Ster. 29 (1978) 320-27

2 Bruning PF, Bronfer JMG, Hart AAM, Jong-Bakker M, tamoxifen, serum lipoproteins and cardiovascular risk, Br. J. Cancer 1988 Oct, 58 (4) 497-9


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## robdog (Dec 2, 2003)

thats a good article mate, if you are using orals and injectables together do you think the pct should still start 3 weeks after last jab or when the orals finish

cheers


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Last jab.

What ever the half life is for. Orals you can start the pct earlier. This is just the way that someone recommended to me. There are guys that do the hcg in low doses the whole cycle. They say that they dont get atrophied nuts. They say that you can keep your nuts from day one. The problem I have with that is the extra estrogen from the HCG (although in low doses) and the aromitization of AAS can promote gyno. Now you can take stuff to block the estrogen but that can take some of your gains. Plus after reconstituting it goes bad after time and you would have to take it the whole cycle. I just thought that if there is any AAS in the system then post cycle thearapy wont work very well as the AAS is still suppressing your natural test levels.

Other guys do the HCG the last 2 weeks of their cycle to jump start the nuts then take nolvadex or the clomid. I just feel it might be safer for the gyno to take it after all of the AAS is out of the system.

Plus look at the price of blocking estrogen for the entire cycle along with the HCG.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Clearance times for various AS for clomid therapy to begin:

Anadrol50/Anapolan50.......8-12 hours

deca Durobolan................3 weeks

Dianabol.........................4-8 hours

Equipoise........................17-21 days

Finajet/Trenbolone............3 days

Primobolan Depot..............10-14 days

Sustanon.........................3 weeks

Test Cypionate.................2 weeks

Test Enthenate/Testoviron..2 weeks

Test Propionate.................3 days

Test Suspension................4-8 hours

Winstrol...........................8-12 hours

If your taking substantial doses ex. 1g+ of test, you may wish to add 1/3 extra time to the above clearance times before starting clomid. This is optional


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## Great White (Apr 4, 2003)

Aye

Good Articles mate.

I`ll get this and your other one into the ARTICLES section once everyone has had a chance to look through it.

Ta

Paul


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## Greyphantom (Oct 23, 2003)

Have used nolva as pct and much prefer it to clomid...


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## Great White (Apr 4, 2003)

I have used Nolva and Clomid. To be honest they both did the same for me.

I tend to recover well, also throwing in HCG helps @1500iu for 3 days EOD

Never suffer the moodyness associated with clomid which is a bonus too

Usually i stick to Clomid tho

Paul


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## robdog (Dec 2, 2003)

whrn you say moodyness mate would this be depression or aggression, just wondered because im thinking what to use pct


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Hey robdog, if your nuts are atrophied then I would add HCG to your pct. If not then you can use either the clomid or nolvadex for post cycle thearapy. Some guys use both.


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

That is a nice article a bit lengthy but good reading. Article in a nut shell. Nolva.

Side note clomid makes you empathetic. Dont really need that on post cycle.


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## turbo (Nov 23, 2003)

I personally already had stocked up on nolva to use post cycle. I use it throughout the cycle to keep down water retention, and as an anti-e. When i read up on it a few months back, it seemed that it does exactly the same job as clomid does for pct, but doesnt have any of the sides which clomid has. Some of the sides didnt sound good, like effecting your vision.

Nolva also is much stronger per mg.


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## Guest (Jan 2, 2004)

Good article should definatley be in the archives


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