# Insulin Before fasted cardio



## Jordan08 (Feb 17, 2014)

What are your views on taking Insulin before cardio in a fasted state?. A dosage of 2IU. I have never heard about this for fat loss and i don't know how safe it is?.

There's a guy in my gym who is doing this protocol on someone's advice. This guy is close friend of my friend. He has already started this but is scared after whatever has happened in BBing community last week. I understand you might laugh at the dosages mentioned above. Just looking for your insights. Quoting few who i believe have experience with Slin.

@Chelsea@swole troll@DLTBB@herc@Sparkey


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

I may be being naive here, but what possible reason would there be for doing this? Surely if there is any point to fasted cardio it is that insulin levels are low?


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## swole troll (Apr 15, 2015)

sounds ridiculous

also i never understood all these weird and wacky ways of simply burning body fat

simple deficit does the trick and when things start getting tricky add in T3 and a beta agonist

ive gotten as lean as any would need to without stepping on stage with nothing but the above (steroids at your discretion)


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## Jordan08 (Feb 17, 2014)

swole troll said:


> sounds ridiculous
> 
> also i never understood all these weird and wacky ways of simply burning body fat
> 
> ...


 He is aiming to step on stage and IIRC, the guy is 6 weeks from the show. In meantime, i have looked into some videos and discussions to same topic. Many pro's do this. What is the main ideology behind doing this?. Dropping the sugar level further enhance fat loss?


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## Jordan08 (Feb 17, 2014)

Ultrasonic said:


> I may be being naive here, but what possible reason would there be for doing this? Surely if there is any point to fasted cardio it is that insulin levels are low?


 Don't know mate. I think the same that dropping the sugar level further for enhanced fat loss. Don't know. Just quoted swole with same question.


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## swole troll (Apr 15, 2015)

Jatin Bhatia said:


> He is aiming to step on stage and IIRC, the guy is 6 weeks from the show. In meantime, i have looked into some videos and discussions to same topic. Many pro's do this. What is the main ideology behind doing this?. Dropping the sugar level further enhance fat loss?


 no idea mate

its a new one to me and sounds crackers


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## Jordan08 (Feb 17, 2014)

swole troll said:


> no idea mate
> 
> its a new one to me and sounds crackers


 I have always thought of Slin as a nutrition shuttling agent. Moreover, many knowledgeable users stand by the thought that using pre workout slin has no advantage except better pumps. But, this protocol was alien to me as well, so thought of asking here. I would share the views with him that i would get here . Thanks for your input mate :thumbup1:


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

swole troll said:


> no idea mate
> 
> its a new one to me and sounds crackers


 Glad it's not just me!


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## simonboyle (Aug 5, 2013)

Jatin Bhatia said:


> He is aiming to step on stage and IIRC, the guy is 6 weeks from the show. In meantime, i have looked into some videos and discussions to same topic. Many pro's do this. What is the main ideology behind doing this?. Dropping the sugar level further enhance fat loss?


 Insulin prevents fatty acids being released from.fat cells. So it sounds stupid. Also, what dose is capable of dropping your blood sugar levels low enough to put you in a coma? 5iu? 2? Depends on levels. So it sounds like a pretty good way to put your life in danger for no discernible reason.


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## Jordan08 (Feb 17, 2014)

simonboyle said:


> Insulin prevents fatty acids being released from.fat cells. So it sounds stupid. Also, what dose is capable of dropping your blood sugar levels low enough to put you in a coma? 5iu? 2? Depends on levels. So it sounds like a pretty good way to put your life in danger for no discernible reason.


 Thanks for your input mate. I am going to share this thread's link with him. Hope he will learn a thing or two :thumbup1:


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## Heavyassweights (Jan 18, 2014)

Jatin always asking for a friend lol

x


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## Jordan08 (Feb 17, 2014)

Heavyassweights said:


> Jatin always asking for a friend lol
> 
> x


 f**kers are too lazy to read and learn.


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## Fadi (Dec 14, 2010)

Jatin Bhatia said:


> He is aiming to step on stage and IIRC, the guy is 6 weeks from the show. In meantime, i have looked into some videos and discussions to same topic. Many pro's do this. What is the main ideology behind doing this?. Dropping the sugar level further enhance fat loss?


 I've said this before on other forums, and that is, pro bodybuilders ,or bodybuilders who believe they are experts in the field of pharmacology and hormone manipulation etc., (and to a large extent, most of the time they truly *are*), are also their own worst enemies. Why is that you may ask?

Two folds:

1) Some have myopic view.

2. Others have a myopic viewpoint of things.

So the problem with the above, is you leave some stones unturned in your quest for a "perfect" you. What steps am I referring to exactly, and how dangerous could these steps be? In my opinion, they are the most dangerous of all, so much so that pro bodybuilders have died from such a miscalculation. I'm referring to one's electrolytes levels. Great, so where does insulin fit in here? Knowing how this most powerful of hormones function and its role in the human body, would shed some light on the (indirect) electrolyte miscalculation.

Two of Insulin roles (apart from many others), is to manage the uptake of both, amino acids and potassium into the cells.

The second role here (within the context of my post), is that insulin has another effect entirely on the kidneys. Basically, it switches on sodium retention in virtually all parts of your kidneys. Save sodium, and you save water..., save water, and you end up increasing the volume of your blood vessels, leading to a potential rise in blood pressure. Granted, insulin also stimulates the production of nitric oxide, and we all know what this chemical does, in the way it helps to relax the blood vessels.

So why is all the above important? Because I'm trying as much as I can to look at the bigger picture instead of being myopic about the whole issue. After all, show me a pro bodybuilder and/or a very advance bodybuilder, who does not dabble with diuretics and insulin these days. Diuretics' role is to rid the body of water, and they accomplish this task by stimulating the excretion of sodium from the body, leaving behind (you guessed it), potassium. So now we've got ourselves a double whammy with potassium retention, one from the bodybuilder who wants to inject with few IUs of insulin, and the other from that same bodybuilder who wants to come in shredded and dry with paper thin skin, resorting to the taking of some good old diuretics.

Too much potassium when sodium is not there to counterbalance it equals a catastrophe called cardiac arrest!

So as you can see, it is not one thing, but a cascade of multiple steps that leads one to a dark place one was least expecting.

Thanks.


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## Chelsea (Sep 19, 2009)

I cannot see the benefit of using Insulin in a fasted state, even at a dose that low.

I will do some research into it and find out if there are any benefits but from what I can see, it just sounds dangerous and not something I would ever try.


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## anabolik (Aug 19, 2010)

Why not just have a Mars bar while doing your cardio. No risk of death or coma too=bonus.


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## Chelsea (Sep 19, 2009)

anabolik said:


> Why not just have a Mars bar while doing your cardio. No risk of death or coma too=bonus.


 Sounds good to me :lol:


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## iamyou (Oct 29, 2012)

It's suppose to put you in ketosis faster if I'm not mistaken.


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## Savage Lifter (Jul 14, 2016)

Sounds like a crazy thing to do. You'd probably die by the end of it, if you make it that far.


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## simonboyle (Aug 5, 2013)

iamyou said:


> It's suppose to put you in ketosis faster if I'm not mistaken.


 Ketones are only.produced in absence of insulin in healthy individuals IIRC.

Ketones only come in to play in this context with diabetics. DKA. It's a toxic condition. Been years since I've looked in to it though


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

iamyou said:


> It's suppose to put you in ketosis faster if I'm not mistaken.


 I believe you're mistaken, in that I don't think anyone is going to end up in ketosis whilst there are still glycogen stores in the body, and a night's sleep won't cause full glycogen depletion!


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## anabolik (Aug 19, 2010)

Surely DNP would be a better method to cause rapid glycogen depletion?


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## Bull Terrier (May 14, 2012)

Pre-cardio insulin is for burning intramuscular fat for a grainy look to muscles.

It does sound dangerous, but some still do it.


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## Chelsea (Sep 19, 2009)

Bull Terrier said:


> Pre-cardio insulin is for burning intramuscular fat for a grainy look to muscles.
> 
> It does sound dangerous, but some still do it.


 Got any links to back that up mate? Be interested to read about it.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Bull Terrier said:


> Pre-cardio insulin is for burning intramuscular fat for a grainy look to muscles.
> 
> It does sound dangerous, but some still do it.


 What is the proposed mechanism for that to occur?


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## simonboyle (Aug 5, 2013)

^this.

As what you say just wouldn't happen.


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## Jordan08 (Feb 17, 2014)




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## simonboyle (Aug 5, 2013)

Being lazy and don't have time to watch that just now.

Does t actually contain references?


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Jatin Bhatia said:


>


 Any chance of a summary of the main points?


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## Jordan08 (Feb 17, 2014)

Ultrasonic said:


> Any chance of a summary of the main points?





simonboyle said:


> Being lazy and don't have time to watch that just now.
> 
> Does t actually contain references?


 Someone sent me this link. Hvnt watched it yet. Going to watch after reaching home.


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## comfla (Feb 26, 2013)

Chelsea said:


> I cannot see the benefit of using Insulin in a fasted state, even at a dose that low.
> 
> I will do some research into it and find out if there are any benefits but from what I can see, it just sounds dangerous and not something I would ever try.





Bull Terrier said:


> Pre-cardio insulin is for burning intramuscular fat for a grainy look to muscles.
> 
> It does sound dangerous, but some still do it.


 I've read about this as well. I haven't looked into it in any detail yet but I read some stuff written by a high level coach and it was to the effect of getting the intramuscular fat to be released and broken down.

I too think that it's a bit dodgy, I was already below 4mmol (3.4-3.6) during fasted cardio before my last show. I think 2IU of insulin would have laid me out.


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## nWo (Mar 25, 2014)

Sounds both counterproductive and potentially dangerous.


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## Chelsea (Sep 19, 2009)

It looks like some people aren't just using Slin, it looks like it's jabbed along with L-Carnitine to increase fat loss.

Still not something I would be doing.


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## comfla (Feb 26, 2013)

Chelsea said:


> It looks like some people aren't just using Slin, it looks like it's jabbed along with L-Carnitine to increase fat loss.
> 
> Still not something I would be doing.


 The L-Car Protocol actually works well without slin (just looking at peoples logs, not done it. Supposed to sting like F though


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## Jordan08 (Feb 17, 2014)

Chelsea said:


> It looks like some people aren't just using Slin, it looks like it's jabbed along with L-Carnitine to increase fat loss.
> 
> Still not something I would be doing.


 I have been searching a lot on this from yesterday. 90% of the population says they won't do it. However, some have mentioned that it's not something a usual amateur will do but very high level athletes use this protocol.

Is there any prep coach in UK named by trainedbyvys or something like this?


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## Chelsea (Sep 19, 2009)

comfla said:


> The L-Car Protocol actually works well without slin (just looking at peoples logs, not done it. Supposed to sting like F though


 I just couldnt be fcked to jab yet another compound! Especially if it stings.



Jatin Bhatia said:


> I have been searching a lot on this from yesterday. 90% of the population says they won't do it. However, some have mentioned that it's not something a usual amateur will do but very high level athletes use this protocol.
> 
> Is there any prep coach is UK named by trainedbyvys something like this?


 There's a TrainedbyJP - Jordan Peters


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## Jordan08 (Feb 17, 2014)

Chelsea said:


> I just couldnt be fcked to jab yet another compound! Especially if it stings.
> 
> There's a TrainedbyJP - Jordan Peters


 Not trainedbyJP, it was something like vys. I tried searching Insta but couldn't find it. Anyways, the guy who has asked to use this protocol has been prep coached by trainedbyvys (Naming might not be correct) and he swear by this protocol for a grainier look on stage. He further stated that he has asked to use this in final 4 weeks of prep and not more than it and start the dosage with 1iu and increasing it further till 3IU. I beleive there is altogether a different game at top level. Things which an amateur or average gym goer would never know.

People are ready to do anything just to win their.


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## Chelsea (Sep 19, 2009)

Jatin Bhatia said:


> Not trainedbyJP, it was something like vys. I tried searching Insta but couldn't find it. Anyways, the guy who has asked to use this protocol has been prep coached by trainedbyvys (Naming might not be correct) and he swear by this protocol for a grainier look on stage. He further stated that he has asked to use this in final 4 weeks of prep and not more than it and start the dosage with 1iu and increasing it further till 3IU. I beleive there is altogether a different game at top level. Things which an amateur or average gym goer would never know.
> 
> People are ready to do anything just to win their.


 Ahh right ok. You're right though mate, people will do anything just to win, sadly that's when the problems start.


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

Ultrasonic said:


> I may be being naive here, but what possible reason would there be for doing this? Surely if there is any point to fasted cardio it is that insulin levels are low?


 THIS......

when you look at the mechanism for Insulin there is no rhyme or reason for doing this unless your goal is to go Keto really quickly, it certainly DOES NOT increase fat burning


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## Bull Terrier (May 14, 2012)

Chelsea said:


> Got any links to back that up mate? Be interested to read about it.


 Apologies for not replying before - I haven't been very active recently on forum and I didn't notice the notifications of replies to my post.

Anyway, here are a couple of studies which explain my reasoning for pre-cardio insulin:

Effect of high and low glycaemic index recovery diets on intramuscular lipid oxidation during aerobic exercise.

Trenell MI1, Stevenson E, Stockmann K, Brand-Miller J.

Intramyocellular lipid (IMCL) and plasma NEFA are important skeletal muscle fuel sources. By raising blood insulin concentrations, carbohydrate ingestion inhibits lipolysis and reduces circulating NEFA. We hypothesised that differences in the postprandial glycaemic and insulin response to carbohydrates (i.e. glycaemic index; GI) could alter NEFA availability and IMCL use during subsequent exercise. Endurance-trained individuals (n 7) cycled for 90 min at 70 % V O2peak and then consumed either high GI (HGI) or low GI (LGI) meals over the following 12 h. The following day after an overnight fast, the 90 min cycle was repeated. IMCL content of the vastus lateralis was quantified using magnetic resonance spectroscopy before and after exercise. Blood samples were collected at 15 min intervals throughout exercise and analysed for NEFA, glycerol, glucose, insulin, and lactate. Substrate oxidation was calculated from expired air samples. The 90 min cycle resulted in >2-fold greater reduction in IMCL in the HGI trial (3.5 (sem 1.0) mm/kg wet weight) than the LGI trial (1.6 (sem 0.3) mm/kg wet weight, P < 0.05). During exercise, NEFA availability was reduced in the HGI trial compared to the LGI trial (area under curve 2.36 (sem 0.14) mEq/l per h v. 3.14 (sem 0.28) mEq/l per h, P < 0.05 respectively). No other differences were significant. The findings suggest that HGI carbohydrates reduce NEFA availability during exercise and increase reliance on IMCL as a substrate source during moderate intensity exercise.

Dietary glycemic index influences lipid oxidation but not muscle or liver glycogen oxidation during exercise.

Stevenson EJ1, Thelwall PE, Thomas K, Smith F, Brand-Miller J, Trenell MI.

Abstract

The glycemic index (GI) of dietary carbohydrates influences glycogen storage in skeletal muscle and circulating nonesterified fatty acid (NEFA) concentrations. We hypothesized that diets differing only in GI would alter intramuscular lipid oxidation and glycogen usage in skeletal muscle and liver during subsequent exercise. Endurance-trained individuals (n = 9) cycled for 90 min at 70% Vo(2peak) and then consumed either high- or low-GI meals over the following 12 h. The following day after an overnight fast, the 90-min cycle was repeated. (1)H and (13)C magnetic resonance spectroscopy was used before and after exercise to assess intramuscular lipid and glycogen content of the vastus muscle group and liver. Blood and expired air samples were collected at 15-min intervals throughout exercise. NEFA availability was reduced during exercise in the high- compared with the low-GI trial (area under curve 44.5 +/- 6.0 vs. 38.4 +/- 7.30 mM/h, P < 0.05). Exercise elicited an approximately 55% greater reduction in intramyocellular triglyceride (IMCL) in the high- vs. low-GI trial (1.6 +/- 0.2 vs. 1.0 +/- 0.3 mmol/kg wet wt, P < 0.05). There was no difference in the exercise-induced reduction of the glycogen pool in skeletal muscle (76 +/- 8 vs. 68 +/- 5 mM) or in liver (65 +/- 8 vs. 71 +/- 4 mM) between the low- and high-GI trials, respectively. High-GI recovery diets reduce NEFA availability and increase reliance on IMCL during moderate-intensity exercise. Skeletal muscle and liver glycogen storage or usage are not affected by the GI of an acute recovery diet.

The implication here from the above studies is that fast-acting pre-cardio insulin would not be too dissimilar to the effect of the high GI carbs and would thus force the muscles to use intracellular triglycerides as a source of fuel.

The studies show what most of us already know - insulin (or in these studies high GI carbs) reduces lipolysis and thus the release of fatty acids into circulation for use as fuel source. However the really interesting part for us is that concurrently they increase reliance on intramuscular triglycerides as fuel source.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Bull Terrier said:


> Apologies for not replying before - I haven't been very active recently on forum and I didn't notice the notifications of replies to my post.
> 
> Anyway, here are a couple of studies which explain my reasoning for pre-cardio insulin:
> 
> ...


 At first look I think the massive distinction here is that the studies looked at type of carbohydrate consumption THE DAY BEFORE the fasted cardio session, not immediately before it. It is not clear from the abstracts if there was any difference in insulin levels at the time of the exercise.

Have you read the full papers?


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

i agree with @Ultrasonic theses studies do not show the use of insulin pre fasted cardio, it seems you are cherry picking to suit your argument mate


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## Bull Terrier (May 14, 2012)

Ultrasonic said:


> At first look I think the massive distinction here is that the studies looked at type of carbohydrate consumption THE DAY BEFORE the fasted cardio session, not immediately before it. It is not clear from the abstracts if there was any difference in insulin levels at the time of the exercise.
> 
> Have you read the full papers?


 I don't see this is as being exactly the take-home point though.

Of course you need to extrapolate a bit - there is no study I'm aware of which studies fuel utilization in cardio with exogenous insulin administered beforehand.

Here is how I see it - blocking lipolysis and then doing cardio increases use of IMTG, something which would NOT happen if lipolysis wasn't blocked. Insulin comes into this because it blocks lipolysis, ergo increases use of IMTG in cardio.

Here is another study which also backs up the above statement:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/7855367_Inhibition_of_adipose_tissue_lipolysis_increases_intramuscular_lipid_and_glycogen_use_in_vivo_in_humans

BTW - if you want to access full texts you should go to sci-hub.bz


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## Bull Terrier (May 14, 2012)

The gist of the article I linked from my previous post is essentially this: the availability of FFA in the blood regulates the use of intramuscular triglycerides and glycogen. When FFA are high then there is less use of the latter two - when FFA are low (or are blocked) then there is increased utilization of intramuscular triglycerides and glycogen.

Now - if take an athlete with already low muscle glycogen and then block the release of FFA via pre-cardio insulin what is going to happen? There will be very little FFAs to be used for fuel, low muscle glycogen for fuel - thus there will be a far greater utilization of IMTGs for fuel. This is potentially a useful albeit very dangerous strategy for getting the grainy look.

I'm not advocating it - I'd never do it. But there is a certain logic to it.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Bull Terrier said:


> The gist of the article I linked from my previous post is essentially this: the availability of FFA in the blood regulates the use of intramuscular triglycerides and glycogen. When FFA are high then there is less use of the latter two - when FFA are low (or are blocked) then there is increased utilization of intramuscular triglycerides and glycogen.
> 
> Now - if take an athlete with already low muscle glycogen and then block the release of FFA via pre-cardio insulin what is going to happen? There will be very little FFAs to be used for fuel, low muscle glycogen for fuel - thus there will be a far greater utilization of IMTGs for fuel. This is potentially a useful albeit very dangerous strategy for getting the grainy look.


 What makes you think that injecting insulin won't also prevent/reduce the availability of IMTGs? If this is falling back on the earlier papers I have to say I think they tell us precisely nothing about this.

The last paper you posted doesn't look relevant to me at all really given it relates to injecting whatever 'nicotinic acid analogs' are but I'll be honest I don't have the time/inclination to read it.

This all smells like bro-science to me, which as well as being potentially dangerous still sounds to me like it could also be counter-productive (by virtue of the injected insulin potentially reducing fat loss).

@Pscarb would be far better placed than me to comment though. I wouldn't normally get involved in discussions like this but did in this thread because the initial idea just sounded so frankly daft!


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## Bull Terrier (May 14, 2012)

Nicotinic acid analogs suppress lipolysis and reduce plasma FFA levels. Have a look:

http://ajpendo.physiology.org/content/300/6/E1012

Insulin will also reduce lipolysis and reduce plasma FFA levels. By doing so it forces reliance for fuel for muscles on glycogen and IMTG.

I would have thought that the title of the linked study would have given a good idea of the underlying concept: "Inhibition of adipose tissue lipolysis increases intramuscular lipid and glycogen use in vivo in humans".

Here is a small extract from one of the quoted studies:

"High levels of carbohydrate intake have been shown to improve glycogen repletion after exercise14,15. An early study also reported that consuming carbohydrates which are rapidly absorbed into the circulatory system, termed high glycaemic index (HGI) carbohydrates, optimised the storage of plasma glucose as skeletal muscle glycogen follow-ing glycogen-depleting exercise16. It has also been reported that the postprandial hyperinsulinaemia accompanying high carbohydrate intake reduces the rate of fat oxidation17 - 19, increasing reliance upon glycogen oxidation during exercise. *Although high postprandial levels of insulin may increase glycogen storage, the suppression of peripheral lipolysis may increase dependency upon intramuscular stores of glycogen and lipid during exercise*"

Is this starting to make sense now?

I agree with you on it not being a good idea from a safety point of view. But it's hard to deny the scientific rationale.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Bull Terrier said:


> Is this starting to make sense now?


 I stand by what I said above.

You seem to be taking study result/conclusions totally out of context. The title of the first study is in the context of what they actually did. Which was have people exercise, eat for 12 hours, sleep, and then do fasted cardio. I still don't think this tells us anything about what might happen when combining fasted cardio with insulin injection.

I'm not going to continue this discussion as I'm not personally interested. This is NOT my area at all and others are far more knowledgeable than I am, but what has been posted so far does not seem to justify the practice, but I am totally open to the fact that there may be other evidence that actually does.


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

i agree with Ultrasonic you are reaching at best mate, in a lot of what you have posted the word "May" is used which is not a certainty and i for one would not like to experiment with injecting insulin before fasted cardio to find out


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## Marcus-d (Aug 2, 2015)

Maybe the thought is to use the insulin to prevent protein breakdown and reduce glucose levels in the bloodstream. Therefore requiring the body to fuel the session via other means? Sounds dangerous and doesn't totally make sense though, because as we know insulin inhibits ampk. Only thing that makes sense is using it to load l-carnitine as it takes time to saturate carnitine levels and it requires insulin to be "stored". I remember reading a study (I'll try and find it) where physiological levels of carnitine led to fatty acids being the preferred energy source for intense exercise regardless of the availability of glycogen. So my thinking is maybe they use the insulin with carnitine pre workout to help increase fat oxidation during cardio to spare glycogen, which would help fuel a resistance session later in the day and enable the trainee to require less carbohydrates further increasing the caloric deficit they could utilise = greater potential fat loss. Either way using insulin fasted sounds very stupid. I've had hypo symptoms just from fasted cardio, I'd be scared to repeat those circumstances with exogenous insulin in the mix.


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## Marcus-d (Aug 2, 2015)

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3099008/

this is what I found from a quick and lazy search. Not the study I was referring to in my previous post and I haven't properly analysed how effective the methods or biases of the above study were, but it shows carnitine helps with glycogen retention while increasing fat oxidation. Also is an ergogenic aid which could be important when trying to plod through cardio in a fasted state with exogenous insulin in your bloodstream!


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