# most healthy calorie dense food



## BigDom86 (Jul 27, 2008)

what is the most "healthy" calorie dense food?

i want to up some calories, but dont really want to chow down on too much chocholate. i eat a bar of chocolate every now and again, or some ice cream or cake etc

but what are some more healthy alternatives


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## 0161 (May 28, 2009)

nuts?


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## Willie (Feb 17, 2008)

Walnuts

Beef jerky


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## Guest (Jul 31, 2009)

Olive oil.

Add to shakes and meals.

Even though i have no idea why you are upping calories do you intend to train arms 6 times per week now????


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## j1mshere (Jul 7, 2008)

coconut oil...?


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## pea head (May 28, 2008)

Avacado pear...bit minging though


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## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

nuts


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## LittleChris (Jan 17, 2009)

Oils are easiest to up the calories I find.


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## pea head (May 28, 2008)

jw007 said:


> nuts


That you are sir :thumbup1:


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## WRT (May 21, 2009)

Ox testicles


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## BigDom86 (Jul 27, 2008)

Con said:


> Olive oil.
> 
> Add to shakes and meals.
> 
> Even though i have no idea why you are upping calories do you intend to train arms 6 times per week now????


6times per week? you think im that beta? there are 7days in a week, so 7 

no seriously ive cut down to one every 6 days now


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## BigDom86 (Jul 27, 2008)

ill start adding olive oil then


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## M_at (May 2, 2009)

Extra thick double cream.

Or squirty anchor. Straight into your mouth.


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## BigDom86 (Jul 27, 2008)

M_at said:


> Extra thick double cream.
> 
> Or squirty anchor. Straight into your mouth.


isnt that very high in saturated fat though?


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## M_at (May 2, 2009)

BigDom86 said:


> isnt that very high in saturated fat though?


Saturated fat and sarcasm. :bounce:

Although I am adding double cream to all my shakes at the moment.


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## rodrigo (Jun 29, 2009)

pea head said:


> Avacado pear...bit minging though


 that they are never again those avacadoes are rank, i eat some concoctions but fcuk that:cursing:


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## hilly (Jan 19, 2008)

FAT in general just good fats, oils, nuts, fatty meat and fish.


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## Prodiver (Nov 14, 2008)

Why do you want to eat calorie dense foods - why do you want to eat so many calories!?

Calories don't build muscle - only protein does.

Excess calories will only make you fat. Period.

And if you bulk up you'll only have to shed expensive fat.

You only need just sufficient calories to fuel your daily life plus intense workouts - and you can easily get enough healthy calories from 3 healthy meals a day with some healthy fats and just enough normal carbs - like salads, fruit, potatoes, rice, pasta and wholemeal bread.


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## hilly (Jan 19, 2008)

Pro driver all the points you make always make sense. what i struggle with is not many people in the bodybuilding world seem to do this or atleast not that i have seen?

any particular reason do you think as i said above what you say makes sense but i always thought one must be eating excess cals to grow and if protein requiements were met then those excess cals could come from any healthy source of pro/fats/carbs in moderation and you will grow muscle. this is how i understood it from biology etc.

i make an effort to read all your posts as they are very informative just not the norm


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## Prodiver (Nov 14, 2008)

hilly2008 said:


> Pro driver all the points you make always make sense. what i struggle with is not many people in the bodybuilding world seem to do this or atleast not that i have seen?
> 
> any particular reason do you think as i said above what you say makes sense but i always thought one must be eating excess cals to grow and if protein requiements were met then those excess cals could come from any healthy source of pro/fats/carbs in moderation and you will grow muscle. this is how i understood it from biology etc.
> 
> i make an effort to read all your posts as they are very informative just not the norm


Thanks, Hilly! 

I don't know where the idea that you must eat excess calories to grow (muscle) came from: I suspect it's a hangover from the austerity days after WW2 when many bodybuilders simply weren't eating enough good food.

Any calories, from whatever source - carbs, fats or protein - will simply be stored by the body as fat.

You only need sufficient calories to meet your basal metabolic requirement plus your extra activities, such as working out. Of course the harder you work out - the more work you do, the more intense the exercise, the more weoght you lift against any resistance in a certain time - the more calories you will expend.

Working out how many calories you need is fraught with difficulty, and all the values given are only approximations averaged from experiment.

When you're on a limited carb diet you can easily tell if you're getting enough calories within a day or two: too much carbs (calories) and you'll get porky; too little and you'll lack energy. It takes a very restricted fat and carb diet before you start to lose muscle...


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## dixie normus (May 11, 2008)

Prodiver said:


> I don't know where the idea that you must eat excess calories to grow (muscle) came from: I suspect it's a hangover from the austerity days after WW2 when many bodybuilders simply weren't eating enough good food.


quite possibly.

Of course you probably do gain more muscle with a decent calorific excess, but as Pat has said the blubber will come with it.

I'd suggest the idea has been drummed into people by magazines and supplement companies who'll sell you a 1000kcal per seving weight gainer to get you huuge, then sell you a fat burner to help you cut.

Most companies who sell a weight gainer also do a fat burner. Coincedence or not?


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## sizar (Nov 13, 2008)

wallnut peanuts almonds good stuff.


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## hilly (Jan 19, 2008)

Prodiver said:


> Thanks, Hilly!
> 
> I don't know where the idea that you must eat excess calories to grow (muscle) came from: I suspect it's a hangover from the austerity days after WW2 when many bodybuilders simply weren't eating enough good food.
> 
> ...


so pro if i find my exact maintanance cals and i am not gaining r loosing weight which is the idea then what do i do to gain from your point of view. increase protein only? surely one would end up at 400-800g protein eventually.


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## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

But you can turn fat to muscle by training ????


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## dixie normus (May 11, 2008)

hilly2008 said:


> so pro if i find my exact maintanance cals and i am not gaining r loosing weight which is the idea then what do i do to gain from your point of view. increase protein only? surely one would end up at 400-800g protein eventually.


Excess protein gets converted to glucose.

I guess it depends on overall activity levels. But I'd go for a little extra carbs around workouts and see if that had an effect.


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## Prodiver (Nov 14, 2008)

dixie normus said:


> quite possibly.
> 
> Of course you probably do gain more muscle with a decent calorific excess, but as Pat has said the blubber will come with it.
> 
> ...


Sounds about right to me, Dixie! :thumb:


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## hilly (Jan 19, 2008)

dixie normus said:


> Excess protein gets converted to glucose.
> 
> I guess it depends on overall activity levels. But I'd go for a little extra carbs around workouts and see if that had an effect.


yes but thats not what i am looking at. what i am saying is for purely muscle building purposes pro is saying eating over maintanance will just go to fat so how do we put on muscle? and how have people managed keeping protein at lower dosages while increasing carbs and getting dam right massive.

a good example is eddy ellwood who had a huge physique and never went o over 250g protein per day or several others i have spoke to in real life and on the net who use same amounts of proteins wth much higher carbs and have grown very well.


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## Lil D (Apr 6, 2009)

I was always of the idea its protein that repairs your muscles and carbs are the fuel to help it grow.

I mean if you eat just to fuel your day and workout you are at maintenance and you'd stay as you are? how can you grow off maintenance calories?

on the protein thing hilly , I reckon 2g per lb of lean body mass is pushing it , but then again if assisted its a whole different ball game and I don't know.


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## Prodiver (Nov 14, 2008)

jw007 said:


> But you can turn fat to muscle by training ????


Er... wrong! 

But you knew that really, Joe...


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## Prodiver (Nov 14, 2008)

dixie normus said:


> Excess protein gets converted to glucose.
> 
> I guess it depends on overall activity levels. But I'd go for a little extra carbs around workouts and see if that had an effect.


AFAIR excess protein is only readily converted to glucose in the absense of carbs and fats: most is turned to notrogen and pi$$ed - hence proteinuria - protein on your pee.

But anyway, glucose from protein = carbs = calories.

A little surplus carbs won't do much immediately, but you'll soon get porky...


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## dixie normus (May 11, 2008)

hilly2008 said:


> yes but thats not what i am looking at. what i am saying is for purely muscle building purposes pro is saying eating over maintanance will just go to fat so how do we put on muscle? and how have people managed keeping protein at lower dosages while increasing carbs and getting dam right massive.
> 
> a good example is eddy ellwood who had a huge physique and never went o over 250g protein per day or several others i have spoke to in real life and on the net who use same amounts of proteins wth much higher carbs and have grown very well.


body type can have an effect here. People with ecto genetics generally need to be on high carbs.

I suppose it depends on your defenition of maintenance as well. I wonder where that came from in the BB world.

I think of maintenance as given your body enough nutrients and energy to repair itself and keep itself functioning correctly. If part of this process means creating new tissue as a response to trauma caused by weight training then so be it.

I decided upon this about a year ago after a fcuked up bulk. :whistling:


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## rs007 (May 28, 2007)

Simple - Pizza.

Home-made from scratch meat feast pizza that is, with plenty olive oil in t'base, fk yeah, thats just how I roll, yeahhh


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## Prodiver (Nov 14, 2008)

hilly2008 said:


> so pro if i find my exact maintanance cals and i am not gaining r loosing weight which is the idea then what do i do to gain from your point of view. increase protein only? surely one would end up at 400-800g protein eventually.


Eat sufficient protein. It's been convincingly demonstrated that muscle maintence requires about 1.8 grams per kg bofyweight per day for an active bodybuilder, and rather more to grow.

If you aim for 2 gms/kg/day you wont be far wrong. If it's too little your gains may be slowed a bit, too much and you'll pee it. Some say that as your metabolism gets more efficient and your gains flatten out, you actually need somewhat less protein.

Otherwise you need a modicum of good fats - butter, olive oil, mayo, peanut butter - never margarine - to make the AAS and vitamins work, and just sufficient carbs for energy.


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## Lil D (Apr 6, 2009)

Another one besides pizza , its always easier to drink extra calories , and god knows nuts get boring.

Full fat milk works well down 2 litres and you got yourself like 1200cals 100g carbs , 60g protein , 60g fat approx and full of vitamins and minerals.


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## dixie normus (May 11, 2008)

Prodiver said:


> AFAIR excess protein is only readily converted to glucose in the absense of carbs and fats: most is turned to notrogen and pi$$ed - hence proteinuria - protein on your pee.
> 
> But anyway, glucose from protein = carbs = calories.
> 
> A little surplus carbs won't do much immediately, but you'll soon get porky...


We are both sort of correct.

The amino group of the amino acid gets converted to ammonia ready for a sweaty or ****y fate. The carbon and hydrogen from the amino acid gets recycled via gluconeogensis into glucose for energy.


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## Prodiver (Nov 14, 2008)

Lil D said:


> I was always of the idea its protein that repairs your muscles and carbs are the fuel to help it grow.
> 
> I mean if you eat just to fuel your day and workout you are at maintenance and you'd stay as you are? how can you grow off maintenance calories?...


Yes - but you onlt need sufficient fuel to power your basal metabolism, your extra activities and workouts - that is maintenance. Any extra calories from whateve sourse will be stored as fat!



dixie normus said:


> body type can have an effect here. People with ecto genetics generally need to be on high carbs....


Exactly the same energy equation applies: ectomorphs typically have high metabolic rates burn more calories, so their maintenance quantity required is higher.

But any excess calories still get stored as fat.


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## Prodiver (Nov 14, 2008)

Lil D said:


> Another one besides pizza , its always easier to drink extra calories , and god knows nuts get boring.
> 
> Full fat milk works well down 2 litres and you got yourself like 1200cals 100g carbs , 60g protein , 60g fat approx and full of vitamins and minerals.


Milk's great, but still: why would anyone want to consume more calories than their energy requirement? - they'll only get stored as fat...


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## Lil D (Apr 6, 2009)

So if you worked out your resting metabolic rate and approx the calories spent from life style and training in day you'd actually cut the calories needed for this by I don't know, say 250-500 calories.

Too actually maintain your size rather than continue to grow?


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## Lil D (Apr 6, 2009)

Prodiver said:


> Milk's great, but still: why would anyone want to consume more calories than their energy requirement? - they'll only get stored as fat...


I know , im just saying if there is difficult obtaining the requirement , ie hardcore ectomorph then it's a solid way to do it and alot cheaper than weight gainers.


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## Prodiver (Nov 14, 2008)

dixie normus said:


> We are both sort of correct.
> 
> The amino group of the amino acid gets converted to ammonia ready for a sweaty or ****y fate. The carbon and hydrogen from the amino acid gets recycled via gluconeogensis into glucose for energy.


Yes - do you happen to know what percentage of the protein (@ 9 calories per gram?) is converted to glucose and what to ammonia?


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## Prodiver (Nov 14, 2008)

Lil D said:


> I know , im just saying if there is difficult obtaining the requirement , ie hardcore ectomorph then it's a solid way to do it and alot cheaper than weight gainers.


Absolutely! :thumb:

And real butter, cream, eggs including yolks, olive oil, peanut butter, nuts...

But still, limit those carbs to only what's required!


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## Lil D (Apr 6, 2009)

Prodiver said:


> Yes - do you happen to know what percentage of the protein (@ 9 calories per gram?) is converted to glucose and what to ammonia?


its 4 calories per gram of protein I thought.

And about the maintenance , say its 4500 calories for me ( just a odd figure) if i eat that , I'l gain muscle so to actually stay a specific size. You eat below maintenance. Am I getting this right?


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## Prodiver (Nov 14, 2008)

Lil D said:


> its 4 calories per gram of protein I thought.
> 
> And about the maintenance , say its 4500 calories for me ( just a odd figure) if i eat that , I'l gain muscle so to actually stay a specific size. You eat below maintenance. Am I getting this right?


Sorry - yes you're right: protein 4 cals per gram, fats 9.

You'll only gain muscle if you work out and eat sufficient protein.

To work out hard enough to stress the muscles into growth you need enough calories for energy - that is maintenance - enough to maintain your activity régime.

All calories surplus to your energy need will always be stored as fat.

Ignore your maintenance calorie figure: just eat enough protein and some good fats and limit your carbs for a week or so: if you lack energy up the carbs; if you get a bit porkier, back them off...


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## Lil D (Apr 6, 2009)

Aha fair enough then just never realised that maintenance lead to growth. Im curious purely since Im cutting at the moment and the idea is to be somewhere between 17-18 stone once im done at10% bf approx , and I have no intention to get any bigger after that purely maintenance so I was wondering how youd aim to maintain that.

Sorry for the hijack!


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## Prodiver (Nov 14, 2008)

Lil D said:


> Aha fair enough then just never realised that maintenance lead to growth. Im curious purely since Im cutting at the moment and the idea is to be somewhere between 17-18 stone once im done at10% bf approx , and I have no intention to get any bigger after that purely maintenance so I was wondering how youd aim to maintain that.
> 
> Sorry for the hijack!


If you're cutting, ie. reducing bodyfat, you need to reduce your carbs to below your energy expenditure requirement - below maintenance - to force your body to use its fat stores.

The biggest impetus to the body to do this is to eat some protein and a little carbs before bed, and not to eat any carbs when getting up in the morning but wait an hour or so until you've used some energy travelling, doing cardio or working out.


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## Lil D (Apr 6, 2009)

oh know I know , I appreciate that and know it very well on how to cut. Im currently between 2600-2800 calories , with my only carbs being from my first meal and pwo on training days. Then I only have protein + fats and fibrous veg or fruit like courgettes or tomatos for all other meals.

I was more asking how you'd eat to maintain a weight without leaning out more or gaining more muscle or fat.Thats what I was trying to ask.


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## Prodiver (Nov 14, 2008)

Lil D said:


> oh know I know , I appreciate that and know it very well on how to cut. Im currently between 2600-2800 calories , with my only carbs being from my first meal and pwo on training days. Then I only have protein + fats and fibrous veg or fruit like courgettes or tomatos for all other meals.
> 
> I was more asking how you'd eat to maintain a weight without leaning out more or gaining more muscle or fat.Thats what I was trying to ask.


OK - so eat 1.8 gms protein/kg/day; keep fats the same; balance carbs to stay the same weight; raise exercise reps to about 15; avoid cardio. Then you should stay just about as you are...

But who wouldn't want always to gain muscle, and also get leaner yet not be hungry!


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## Lil D (Apr 6, 2009)

Prodiver said:


> OK - so eat 1.8 gms protein/kg/day; keep fats the same; balance carbs to stay the same weight; raise exercise reps to about 15; avoid cardio. Then you should stay just about as you are...
> 
> But who wouldn't want always to gain muscle, and also get leaner yet not be hungry!


Clothes are hard enough to come by as it is and for my kayaking ( to fit into my boats) , my joints lots of reasons really. Myl idea is to just stay at 17-18 stone and just strength train


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## Prodiver (Nov 14, 2008)

Lil D said:


> Clothes are hard enough to come by as it is and for my kayaking ( to fit into my boats) , my joints lots of reasons really. Myl idea is to just stay at 17-18 stone and just strength train


I know exactly what you mean - I have to have all my suits and smart clothes made - but I don't mind... 

Haven't had any incurable joint pains yet even at around 19 stone..


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## Lil D (Apr 6, 2009)

Well neither did I when i was that weight , but after injuring my knee and back in rugby , 8 months of studying for exams and comforting eating has left me at 135kg approx , so I kinda need to get back down to 115kg approx with a decent bf again.

The joint worry is more because i do intend to take up some fairly intense activities like rugby once more and hiking so sprints and long distances may require a lighterish build.

What bodyfat % are you now approx?


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## BigDom86 (Jul 27, 2008)

wow lots of responses!

so prodiver you dont think you need excess calories to grow if your eating sufficient protein?

this goes against anything ive ever read, heard etc.


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## LittleChris (Jan 17, 2009)

Prodriver, have you any photos to show your theories off? By the sounds of it you must be very lean and muscular, assuming you do practice what you preach.


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## BigDom86 (Jul 27, 2008)

LittleChris said:


> Prodriver, have you any photos to show your theories off? By the sounds of it you must be very lean and muscular, assuming you do practice what you preach.


do you have any photos to show your pre-workout quotes and theories etc work? :lol: :thumbup1:


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## LittleChris (Jan 17, 2009)

BigDom86 said:


> do you have any photos to show your pre-workout quotes and theories etc work? :lol: :thumbup1:


No, but everything I say is conventional. Tried and tested. 

PD's seems to fly in the face of everything you read.


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## BigDom86 (Jul 27, 2008)

LittleChris said:


> No, but everything I say is conventional. Tried and tested.
> 
> PD's seems to fly in the face of everything you read.


very true. i was always taught that excess calories can be even more important than protein. hench why alot of big guys on gear have ****e diets, just high in calories and are monsters (cue JW)


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## Prodiver (Nov 14, 2008)

LittleChris said:


> No, but everything I say is conventional. Tried and tested.
> 
> PD's seems to fly in the face of everything you read.


But it doesn't, Chris. Everything I've said is from the established science of nutrition.

It's just that so many bodybuilders say vague things like "to get big you have to eat big", and "you need to eat enough calories to get big".

Of course you need to eat enough protein for muscle repair and growth, and sufficient calories to power your daily life and workouts.

But the irrefutable, unavoidable fact is that every calorie surplus to your energy needs will be stored as fat - expensive fat that you'll later have to shed with difficulty.

In a thread yesterday which I can't easily find, James Llewellin talking about training said he doesn't believe in bulking and cutting and never lets his trainees get far above competition weight even off-season.

I don't know what my bf is at present - I can't use the electronic scales as I only have one leg, and that anyway skews the results, but I don't have a belly and can nearly see my abs, and I'm not prepping for a contest...


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## dixie normus (May 11, 2008)

Prodiver said:


> Yes - do you happen to know what percentage of the protein (@ 9 calories per gram?) is converted to glucose and what to ammonia?


My understanding is it gluconeogensis from amino acids is around 57%. So 100g of amino acids will produce 57g of glucose.


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## Prodiver (Nov 14, 2008)

dixie normus said:


> My understanding is it gluconeogensis from amino acids is around 57%. So 100g of amino acids will produce 57g of glucose.


Great thanks! - useful info to squirrel away... :thumb:


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## BigDom86 (Jul 27, 2008)

dixie normus said:


> My understanding is it gluconeogensis from amino acids is around 57%. So 100g of amino acids will produce 57g of glucose.


but gluconeogenesis will only occur if the body is not getting enough glucose ingested


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## hilly (Jan 19, 2008)

Prodiver said:


> But it doesn't, Chris. Everything I've said is from the established science of nutrition.
> 
> It's just that so many bodybuilders say vague things like "to get big you have to eat big", and "you need to eat enough calories to get big".
> 
> ...


very true about james but i do believe he himself eats above maintanance to grow.

What some of us are struggling with pro is that even from science maintanance cals will not make you gain or loose weight. so how come every bodybuilder on here recommends eating over maintanance but yourself.

some like tinytom believe in 300-500cals over and staying lean others will go further than that.

I cant find any science or any bodybuilding site that says hitting protein requirements but at maintanance cals will not do anything but keep you at the same weight. i dont doubt you mate as i have said but i no it takes you being under maintanance to loose weight roughly 3500cals to burn a lb of fat. so surely to put on muscle you have to be over in cals to put on muscle altho i believe i have read its only between 600-1000cals.

thoughts pro? surely if you need say 3000cals to stay the same weight then i have to eat 600cals over to gain that lb of muscle. it may very well need to come from protein but this isnt what you are saying unless im reading it wrong.

hilly


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## Prodiver (Nov 14, 2008)

hilly2008 said:


> ... surely if you need say 3000cals to stay the same weight then i have to eat 600cals over to gain that lb of muscle. it may very well need to come from protein but this isnt what you are saying unless im reading it wrong.
> 
> hilly


Yes of course you need to ingest more calories to grow than to stay at the same weight - but that's simply to provide sufficient extra energy to do enough work to stress the muscles to make them grow.

The extra calories themselves do not actually go into the muscles - it's the amino acids in your protein intake that the body uses to form tissue.

The extra calories you need to power your work-outs for growth can come from any foods, but the tissue-building amino acids can only come from ingested protein.

The amount of extra calories you need to power your work-outs for growth isn't directly related to the actual increase in muscle mass. It depends how efficiently you do your exercises and other factors such as how cold or hot your gym is.

This is why it's very uncertain to try to calculate your calorie requirements, and even moreso to divide such a notional amount up into protein calories, carb calories and fat calories and stick rigidly to such a diet.

It's far more practical and effective to eat sufficient protein and fats, and gradually raise and lower your carb intake daily according to whether you lack energy for intense workouts or are obviously gaining fat.

If you can always perform an intense 50-60 minute workout however many days a week without feeling exhausted and hungry, you will automatically be eating enough calories to grow well; but if you then clearly start to gain fat you are eating calories in excess of what your body needs to power your workouts, and can back off the carbs you eat.

Even if you consume somewhat too much protein you will be sure of getting enough amino acids to build muscle and, as we've learned, on limited carbs 57% of the excess protein will be turned into glucose and go to power your workouts, and again if you start to get porky you can easily back off the actual carbs you eat.

The additional benefit is that limiting carbs conditions the body to tap into its fat stores faster and more efficiently, so it will take even less time to cut when you wish to.


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## LittleChris (Jan 17, 2009)

Why have my best gains in strength and size come when I have eaten more, quality food then?

I am on 500g carbs now, 300g protein and about 150g fat (looking at the primary values of food- e.g. oats will be 90 carbs, don't count the protein and fats)

Only a few days in but I have no doubt I will see much better strength and size gains than if I were eating 300g carbs based on past experience.

Perhaps if I were to eat like this for 10months I wouuld get fat, but I eat like this for 8, then implement some carb cycling and other methods to lower the bodyfat and increase insulin sensitivity for 4weeks or so, before starting another big eating phase.

You give James L as your example, I will give you Lee Priest, Dorian, Nasser.


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## ba baracuss (Apr 26, 2004)

Plenty of common sense and logic from PD as usual, slapping down the usual guff trotted out about eating stupid amounts of calories for no other reason than it's the done thing.

I personally don't understand why anyone only wants to be in good condition for a few months of the year, while being fat and watery the rest of the time. The whole point of training to me is to be in a good condition all the time.

Littlechris - most probably because your muscles are full of glycogen, water and fat. All of the above make you bigger and stronger, but not lean - it all depends what you want.


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## richardrahl (Nov 19, 2007)

Prodiver - Great, no nonsense info, as always. I really enjoy reading your posts, big man.

Reps to you.


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## Prodiver (Nov 14, 2008)

LittleChris said:


> *Why have my best gains in strength and size come when I have eaten more, quality food then?*
> 
> I am on 500g carbs now, 300g protein and about 150g fat (looking at the primary values of food- e.g. oats will be 90 carbs, don't count the protein and fats)
> 
> ...


Well it simply means that now you're eating enough calories to power your daily life and workouts properly, and suggests that before you were not.

If you're not getting porky the fact is you can't be eating excess calories.

I don't know how much more clear I can make it!


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## hilly (Jan 19, 2008)

very good info pro and now i uderstand what youir saying. i think the point people were missing(or atleast myself) was that when you say eating enough to power thru workouts and put on muscle you are actually saying eat above maintanance but only enough to get thru workouts and grow etc.

you were trying to stay away from the term maintanance cals as you dont like to count cals in general. makes sense when looking at it from that point of view.

thnks pro reps


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## Miller (Jan 19, 2009)

bagel with pb and shake with full fat milk is a decent meal


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## carbsnwhey (Jul 24, 2009)

I eat mixed nuts and throw in some chocolate raisins


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## Prodiver (Nov 14, 2008)

hilly2008 said:


> very good info pro and now i uderstand what youir saying. i think the point people were missing(or atleast myself) was that when you say eating enough to power thru workouts and put on muscle you are actually saying eat above maintanance but only enough to get thru workouts and grow etc.
> 
> *you were trying to stay away from the term maintanance cals* as you dont like to count cals in general. makes sense when looking at it from that point of view.
> 
> thnks pro reps


Thanks - yes - glad you twigged! Maintenance is such an ambiguous term.

Dieticians use it conventionally to mean calorie requrement to maintain an given weight; nutritionists often mean the calorie requirement to maintain a given rate of muscle growth (recovering from a disease, for instance) and bodybuilders seem to use it variously to mean the calorie requirement to maintain both weight and muscle mass, so it's best to steer clear!


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## hilly (Jan 19, 2008)

i think thats were you were loosing me and chris mate.

when you are our age and have goten alot of your knowledge from online its hard to take terminology's away. maintanance no matter were you read it usually is to hold your weight inlcuding muscle/fat extra.

obviously as you said you class maintanance as being in a slight excess to put on muscle. good stuff


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## Rudedog (Jan 14, 2009)

Wow some interesting points in here.


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