# anyone eat 500g protein??



## Guest

As Ausbuilt recommends? Anyone here tried it?

Have cut to where I wanted to, bout 86kg now.

Now considering a bulk, following big A/aus's advice and considering 1g test + their recommended diet to bulk. Obviously like the idea of maximised muscle gain with minimal fat gain.


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## IGotTekkers

Unless you are 250lb there is absolutely no need for 500 grams of protein. IMO


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## Fat

FrankDangerMaus said:


> As Ausbuilt recommends? Anyone here tried it?
> 
> Have cut to where I wanted to, bout 86kg now.
> 
> Now considering a bulk, following big A/aus's advice and considering 1g test + their recommended diet to bulk. Obviously like the idea of maximised muscle gain with minimal fat gain.


You should ask BigA mate.


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## paul81

i'm guessing some of the powerlifters/strongmen in here do?

over to you Ewen! :thumb:


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## Guest

Fat said:


> You should ask BigA mate.


it's big a's advice what would be the point of asking him if he advises his own advice???????


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## Fatstuff

I shall be aiming for this by the end of this week lol! Also aiming for 5k cals too lol


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## Gorgeous_George

no, i dont fancy destroying my liver

trolololol


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## paul81

that would be ridiculously expensive as well?


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## Gorgeous_George

FrankDangerMaus said:


> it's big a's advice what would be the point of asking him if he advises his own advice???????


 :lol:


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## Guest

paul81 said:


> that would be ridiculously expensive as well?


I reckon £10 a day

1.5 kg chicken breast - 330g - £7.50

200g whey - £2


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## paul81

FrankDangerMaus said:


> I reckon £10 a day


i demand to see a breakdown!!

reps if i'm suitably impressed :thumb:


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## Guest

paul81 said:


> i demand to see a breakdown!!
> 
> reps if i'm suitably impressed :thumb:


i already edited it in above!

plus the carbs, but brown rice n broc aren't expensive.


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## Mingster

I've been eating 500g of protein for the past 8 days.


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## paul81

Mingster said:


> I've been eating 500g of protein for the past 8 days.


hows your toilet habits?? :lol:


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## Clubber Lang

thats roughly what i should be aiming for ED as ive got over 18stone for the 1st time ever, whoop whoop. Whether it actually get to 500grams of protein is ED another matter lol. Could be close tho.


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## Mingster

paul81 said:


> hows your toilet habits?? :lol:


No different to usual. I was on 450g of protein before


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## Guest

see, the big boys r joinin the thread stating they do it.

might just have to try it!!


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## Ginger Ben

FrankDangerMaus said:


> see, the big boys r joinin the thread stating they do it.
> 
> might just have to try it!!


I'm going to do it on next bulk. Decent dose of test and deca and a boat load of protein


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## Guest

TheBob said:


> I take 400g , however I think is feasible I could get to 500g if I thought it appropriate


is that you in your avi?

I thought you were an old mountain man


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## PHMG

IGotTekkers said:


> Unless you are 250lb there is absolutely no need for 500 grams of protein. IMO


to be 250lb, some would say you should eat and train like a 250lb man. Else forever be in their shadow.


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## G-man99

Currently on just over 400-450g a day for the last week since adding injectable dbol to my cycle. Trying for a 3 week recomp before my hols


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## reza85

Pliquin recommends 2grams per pound so I? don't see why not


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## reza85

Ill say going by your weight Ill go with 400 not 500


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## Fat

I don't see what difference it makes just eat in a surplus and consume 1.5-2g protein per lbs if on AAS..


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## ZyZee_2012

Would love too, just too expensive!


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## bigtommay

i Dont believe its necesarry unless at the higher bodyweight/lbm if some of the biggest guys.

I'd be interested to know if the 200-250lb lbm guys in here have always ate like that from much lesser weights or whether its been a natural progression.

I know people who have tried it with all clean food and just got fat.


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## baggsy1436114680

1.5 to 2g max per lb for me max, guys who have 500g how much is from shakes?


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## GoHeavy

Ive bn on 400 per day for past 6 days, 140 from shakes. Ive upped it from 330.


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## PHMG

250lb lean (average height) is an extreme look. To look extreme, people do extreme things. Wake up people. BigA knows his shi.t.


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## baggsy1436114680

who the fcks big A, seen his name mentioned alot any pics of him whats his proper name? Meant to be a former pro or something


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## biglbs

It is the best way to gain,

if on aas,

or you waste your money,

no aas needed upto 150g,

never confuse aas/to natty guys

all about prot.synth!


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## PHMG

baggsy said:


> who the fcks big A, seen his name mentioned alot any pics of him whats his proper name? Meant to be a former pro or something


Mod on pro muscle and yes former pro. Quite a big agenda drug wise, but no reason to lie about diet.


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## Malibu

baggsy said:


> who the fcks big A, seen his name mentioned alot any pics of him whats his proper name? Meant to be a former pro or something


x2


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## baggsy1436114680

PowerHouseMcGru said:


> Mod on pro muscle and yes former pro. Quite a big agenda drug wise, but no reason to lie about diet.


whats his proper name though???


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## biglbs

:laugh:



baggsy said:


> whats his proper name though???


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## PHMG

baggsy said:


> whats his proper name though???


Doesnt matter, the advice is sound. Try it.


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## baggsy1436114680

biglbs said:


> :laugh:


What so he's meant to be a well known guy, former pro gives out advice etc which loads follow, not saying hes wrong, surely he will have some pics, videos etc, for all i know he could be a 250lb fat cvnt lol


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## Fat

baggsy said:


> whats his proper name though???


He doesn't reveal his identity for obvious reasons.


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## baggsy1436114680

PowerHouseMcGru said:


> Doesnt matter, the advice is sound. Try it.


i know advice is sound etc, but would be nice to see what nick he is in or has been


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## Fat

baggsy said:


> What so he's meant to be a well known guy, former pro gives out advice etc which loads follow, not saying hes wrong, surely he will have some pics, videos etc, for all i know he could be a 250lb fat cvnt lol


 :lol: !!!!!


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## Fatstuff

BONE said:


> Do you guys take 50mcg t3 to help protein turnover when on aas and 500g protein?
> 
> Im on 350g but im a 200lb man


I will be during my little experiment


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## PHMG

baggsy said:


> What so he's meant to be a well known guy, former pro gives out advice etc which loads follow, not saying hes wrong, surely he will have some pics, videos etc, for all i know he could be a 250lb fat cvnt lol


if you know the site, the guys on it and the people that do reveal who hey are...i think its pretty obvious what every one is doing.

You guys need to stop thinking these huge guys are doing the same as we are...yes they are, but its all multiplied hugely. They take risks, they dont fear the unknown, they want muscle at any cost. Its more important than health to them...

Markus Ruhl "i dont bodybuild to be healthy, i do it to have big muscles".

Kai greene "if i die tonight training, then so be it"...(im not sure he would die from training :lol: , so i can assume he meant bodybuilding in general)


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## Guest

just managed 750g of chicken in one meal, with 75g rice.

had 100g whey in my porridge for breakfast

and a big chicken breast in a wrap for lunch

approx 320g so far

im aiming for 400g today

500 is gonan be tough


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## Mingster

FrankDangerMaus said:


> just managed 750g of chicken in one meal, with 75g rice.
> 
> had 100g whey in my porridge for breakfast
> 
> and a big chicken breast in a wrap for lunch
> 
> approx 320g so far
> 
> im aiming for 400g today
> 
> 500 is gonan be tough


I've a good appetite but I would struggle to hit 500g day in and day out without shakes. When you factor in difficulties in eating at work and trying to live as normal a lifestyle as possible I've had to sacrifice a solid food meal and go with 3 shakes a day, otherwise I wouldn't be able to hit that target on a daily basis.


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## Guest

Mingster said:


> I've a good appetite but I would struggle to hit 500g day in and day out without shakes. When you factor in difficulties in eating at work and trying to live as normal a lifestyle as possible I've had to sacrifice a solid food meal and go with 3 shakes a day, otherwise I wouldn't be able to hit that target on a daily basis.


yeah think I'll up the shakes.

I have been a fan of IF for a long time, prob 2 years, and was used to two large meals a day, hence my three meals so far, seems weird to start eating so often but I can't fit 400g into 2 meals let alone 500g. will probably do 3 meals and 2 shakes perhaps. that's do able.


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## RowRow

Eating 9 meals a day and getting 500g of protein isn't that difficult, portion sizes aren't too large either so there is room to build. I think according to fit day I consume 560ishg of protein a day, if I get all my meals in me.


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## Mingster

RowRow said:


> Eating 9 meals a day and getting 500g of protein isn't that difficult, portion sizes aren't too large either so there is room to build. I think according to fit day I consume 560ishg of protein a day, if I get all my meals in me.


I get almost that amount from my 7 meals. There's no way I can fit extra meals into my work schedule and other life factors unfortunately. I've worked out a diet that's do-able for me and one that I can stick to day in and day out. Finding a diet that you can repeat on a daily basis is the hardest part


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## damerush

I think it would be easier to pick at 1-1.5kg of chicken throughout the day, fk trying to get 750g in one sitting.


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## Guest

damerush said:


> I think it would be easier to pick at 1-1.5kg of chicken throughout the day, fk trying to get 750g in one sitting.


lol after several years of IF i can knock back a kg of meat at once no problem.

couldn't do it twice a day though !!


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## RowRow

Mingster said:


> I get almost that amount from my 7 meals. There's no way I can fit extra meals into my work schedule and other life factors unfortunately. I've worked out a diet that's do-able for me and one that I can stick to day in and day out. Finding a diet that you can repeat on a daily basis is the hardest part


Ohh sure I agree 100% this diet only works for me as its summer hols, I only have to eat, sleep and train. When I was in school I used more shakes and maxed out about 7 meals a day, come uni term time that may change again.


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## aces_high_4

RowRow said:


> Ohh sure I agree 100% this diet only works for me as its summer hols, I only have to eat, sleep and train. When I was in school I used more shakes and maxed out about 7 meals a day, come uni term time that may change again.


Unless you are a pro or have no job or don't go to school, it is near impossible to get all the protein/cals etc without shakes. I personally go for 70g protein per meal, 6 meals a day plus 40g protein post w/o on training days. 3 of the meals are pure solid meals and 3 of them are with shakes or milk. Been on this diet of over a year and had good gains. How would you find the time to cook 6+ times a day, work and find time to train?!


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## big_jim_87

aces_high_4 said:


> Unless you are a pro or have no job or don't go to school, it is near impossible to get all the protein/cals etc without shakes. I personally go for 70g protein per meal, 6 meals a day plus 40g protein post w/o on training days. 3 of the meals are pure solid meals and 3 of them are with shakes or milk. Been on this diet of over a year and had good gains. How would you find the time to cook 6+ times a day, work and find time to train?!


who would cook 6x any way lol just do it all at once and get it up later...

if you do it all at once then you only cook once...

but no job will let you have a break to eat 3x day...

im sure we'd all look very diff if we lived the life style of a pro bber...


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## RowRow

aces_high_4 said:


> Unless you are a pro or have no job or don't go to school, it is near impossible to get all the protein/cals etc without shakes. I personally go for 70g protein per meal, 6 meals a day plus 40g protein post w/o on training days. 3 of the meals are pure solid meals and 3 of them are with shakes or milk. Been on this diet of over a year and had good gains. How would you find the time to cook 6+ times a day, work and find time to train?!


I think it depends on the nature of your job. It only takes 5/10 minutes to power down a meal really.

Also cooking,I alway cook it all in one go tbh. I also then flavour it as i can so it's palatable hot or cold, chop up fine enough to simply use a spoon, to just shovel it down when my watch tells me to.

Only things I have to prepare fresh are prawns and tuna!


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## aces_high_4

big_jim_87 said:


> who would cook 6x any way lol just do it all at once and get it up later...
> 
> if you do it all at once then you only cook once...
> 
> but no job will let you have a break to eat 3x day...
> 
> im sure we'd all look very diff if we lived the life style of a pro bber...


Agreed that would be easier but I think 5000kcal of the same food all day may finish me. Need variety when bulking however this is definitely the way forward when cutting.


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## ausbuilt

paul81 said:


> that would be ridiculously expensive as well?


well, muscle IS an EXPENSIVE luxury- AAS + Protein... in all seriousness, the wealth of nations is measured in the average annual meat/protein consumption... but if you want more muscle than average, this is what it takes...



Mingster said:


> I've been eating 500g of protein for the past 8 days.


and even at your size you will make gains over the next months.



Clubber Lang said:


> thats roughly what i should be aiming for ED as ive got over 18stone for the 1st time ever, whoop whoop. Whether it actually get to 500grams of protein is ED another matter lol. Could be close tho.


i don't always hit 500; as i sometimes miss a meal owing to work/travel (and I would rather miss than eat crap); but i do hit it most days..

interestingly, two of the biggest guys on here (quoted above) do the 500g/day (or aim for it) and the smaller guys question whether its necessary... what does that show?? to me it shows that the guys who are big, are big because they do more/try harder... they have a go, rather than talk about it....


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## RowRow

Ohh also blending while food options helps. I would rather drink that than a shake really, blended chicken is actually okay.


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## ausbuilt

big_jim_87 said:


> who would cook 6x any way lol just do it all at once and get it up later...
> 
> if you do it all at once then you only cook once...
> 
> but no job will let you have a break to eat 3x day...
> 
> im sure we'd all look very diff if we lived the life style of a pro bber...


you're 100% right. I do have 2 quick lunch breaks (15 min) rather than the 30-60min everyone else at work does.. however I do slam back "carnivore" protein shots, 3x day as well:

http://www.dolphinfitness.co.uk/en/musclemeds-carnivor-liquid-shot-6-vials/23132

50g/protein per 120ml shot! dont need to leave the desk... I keep a carton in my draw..


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## aces_high_4

RowRow said:


> Ohh also blending while food options helps. I would rather drink that than a shake really, blended chicken is actually okay.


I have a pal that uses to train with Gary lister and he used to regularly drink 2 tins of tuna blended with Pepsi max... When in Rome...


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## RowRow

aces_high_4 said:


> I have a pal that uses to train with Gary lister and he used to regularly drink 2 tins of tuna blended with Pepsi max... When in Rome...


Not the first time I've heard that..I'll stick to my chicken shakes for now haha!


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## Magic Torch

It's not too hard to understand is it, 4500 cals on a bulk, say you shoot for 40% protein, that's 1800 cals from protein. 1800 cals should be around 450g of protein.

Upon waking and Pre and post training I'd have an isolate which would be150-200g off the bat so only another 5 meals with 50g in each......so yeah 500g is not so hard IMO


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## big_jim_87

Magic Torch said:


> It's not too hard to understand is it, 4500 cals on a bulk, say you shoot for 40% protein, that's 1800 cals from protein. 1800 cals should be around 450g of protein.
> 
> Upon waking and Pre and post training I'd have an isolate which would be150-200g off the bat so only another 5 meals with 50g in each......so yeah 500g is not so hard IMO


4.5k cals? is this for a small child? lol

right now not really keeping track just keep pro at a min of 50g per meal but typically more... est 5-6k a day still.

last time i was counting cals on a bulk i was aiming for 7k cals lol 500pro 800-1000carb and the rest from fat 1-200g. boom! that's how to grow!

i would say any more then 500g pro is prob too much... 500g surely the limit imo... carbs and fats i guess its about how you respond...


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## big_jim_87

ausbuilt said:


> you're 100% right. I do have 2 quick lunch breaks (15 min) rather than the 30-60min everyone else at work does.. however I do slam back "carnivore" protein shots, 3x day as well:
> 
> http://www.dolphinfitness.co.uk/en/musclemeds-carnivor-liquid-shot-6-vials/23132
> 
> 50g/protein per 120ml shot! dont need to leave the desk... I keep a carton in my draw..


typically i have 3 solid and 3 shakes per day...

what gets me tho is you split your break up... do you smoke? i bet the smokers get the 30min plus all the 10min breaks they want to smoke...


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## Fatstuff

Funny all the big BBers and strength athletes and generally bigger guys are all eating a large amount of food and cals and I get bumraped in my journal over trying it on my current cycle as a project , by a pencilneck online 'guru'!!


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## big_jim_87

Fatstuff said:


> Funny all the big BBers and strength athletes and generally bigger guys are all eating a large amount of food and cals and I get bumraped in my journal over trying it on my current cycle as a project , by a pencilneck online 'guru'!!


fvck em! get the cals in bud!

to become a 280lb bber you need to eat like one...


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## Fatstuff

big_jim_87 said:


> fvck em! get the cals in bud!
> 
> to become a 280lb bber you need to eat like one...


So I hear lol - I can always trim the fat at a later date


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## Mighty.Panda

500g? Damn....

Are you the result of a dirty one night stand between Arnold Schwarzenegger and a transvestite silverback Gorilla? :mellow:


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## The Big Dog

I eat 500 + with ease 60/40 ratio of food to isolate and regular bloods. All is good and it's results surpass what I have been doing.


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## George-Bean

Puts my banana for breakfast into perspective. 500grams of proteins, lucky [email protected]

Wish I hadn't eaten all those pies and drank all those beers.


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## aces_high_4

Fatstuff said:


> So I hear lol - I can always trim the fat at a later date


Wouldn't worry about fat if size is what you are after. Fat really isn't hard to lose but getting muscle to grow can be a real challenge.



ZyZee_2012 said:


> Would love too, just too expensive!


5kg chicken £20

5kg whey £40

30 eggs £3

Tinned salmon £1 per tin

Tinned tuna 50p per tin

Silver side beef £5/kg

If you can stomach it you can get offal such as liver, kidney, heart etc very high protein very cheap

So it isn't very expensive if you shop smart.


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## RDS

aces_high_4 said:


> Wouldn't worry about fat if size is what you are after. Fat really isn't hard to lose but getting muscle to grow can be a real challenge.
> 
> 5kg chicken £20
> 
> 5kg whey £40
> 
> 30 eggs £3
> 
> Tinned salmon £1 per tin
> 
> Tinned tuna 50p per tin
> 
> Silver side beef £5/kg
> 
> If you can stomach it you can get offal such as liver, kidney, heart etc very high protein very cheap
> 
> So it isn't very expensive if you shop smart.


Exactly! When I was a student I had limited money and this was pretty much my diet (still is tbh but I buy better quality) I would spend no more than about £25 a week on food and it always lasted 7-9 days.

Just don't buy the cheapest chicken is all I recommend. Bought some dirty cheap chicken breasts once, said 30g protein per 100g of chicken when cooked (which is fairly standard) took a 200g frozen breast, left it to thaw out, cooked it and I swear it was barely pushing 90g cooked and I needed at least 150g cooked :S Never seen such a drop from frozen.


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## TIMMY_432

FrankDangerMaus said:


> see, the big boys r joinin the thread stating they do it.
> 
> might just have to try it!!


Lol that's because there already big boys so they need this much protein!


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## Guest

TIMMY_432 said:


> Lol that's because there already big boys so they need this much protein!


ah i see, so i can listen to the big fellas who are 250lbs advising on how to get big

or i can listen to the guys my size on how to get big.

hmmm who to listen to? hmm


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## TIMMY_432

Lol How heavy did you say you are again?


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## TIMMY_432

So your saying that someone who is 13st needs the same or should be eating the same amount of protein to someone who is 18st???


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## ausbuilt

big_jim_87 said:


> typically i have 3 solid and 3 shakes per day...
> 
> what gets me tho is you split your break up... do you smoke? i bet the smokers get the 30min plus all the 10min breaks they want to smoke...


No I don't smoke, but yep, you're right the smoker at the desk next to me has multiple 10min breaks... but i know I would get odd looks sitting down to 4-5 meals at work, so I eat 2 and use the carnivore shots for 2-3meals at my desk in 1-2swigs..



Mighty.Panda said:


> 500g? Damn....
> 
> Are you the result of a dirty one night stand between Arnold Schwarzenegger and a transvestite silverback Gorilla? :mellow:


I wish!



The Big Dog said:


> I eat 500 + with ease 60/40 ratio of food to isolate and regular bloods. All is good and it's results surpass what I have been doing.


same here.. made a big diff to me when I followed this (well that similarly upped my AAS, but AAS dont work without protein.. as they retain nitrogen (aminos) and so you need a pool of aminos to retain...)


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## RowRow

TIMMY_432 said:


> So your saying that someone who is 13st needs the same or should be eating the same amount of protein to someone who is 18st???


If you wanna be 18stone, you need to eat like someone who is 18stone. If you are 13stone and eat as such you shall remain 13stone.

On 10k calories a day I have gone up to just over 18stone eating less than the amount it takes for me to be 18st and I won't reach 18st, logically really.


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## narraboth

FrankDangerMaus said:


> I reckon £10 a day
> 
> 1.5 kg chicken breast - 330g - £7.50
> 
> 200g whey - £2


i will throw up if i eat 1.5kg of chicken breast a day....

was thinking a nice roast beef joint... well, it costs more...


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## Big ape

500g LOL


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## TIMMY_432

ausbuilt said:


> but i know I would get odd looks sitting down to 4-5 meals at work, so I eat 2 and use the carnivore shots for 2-3meals at my desk


Who gives a f*ck what anyone at work thinks! I get funny looks sitting down in the canteen every lunch eating a hole chicken everyday but im not going to do it because people will give me odd looks lol!


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## ausbuilt

TIMMY_432 said:


> Who gives a f*ck what anyone at work thinks! I get funny looks sitting down in the canteen every lunch eating a hole chicken everyday but im not going to do it because people will give me odd looks lol!


funny you should say that.... the only time I eat at the office cafeteria is when they have half roast chickens on... naturally I have 2... and I do get a lot of odd looks and whispers amongst the other tables (i point out this is in Germany, and I work in an investment bank)


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## TIMMY_432

RowRow said:


> If you wanna be 18stone, you need to eat like someone who is 18stone. If you are 13stone and eat as such you shall remain 13stone.
> 
> On 10k calories a day I have gone up to just over 18stone eating less than the amount it takes for me to be 18st and I won't reach 18st, logically really.


And how much fat did you gain? I have never ate 500g of protein and 10k cals and I've gone from 9 1/2st to 15.7 at 5'7


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## Fat

TIMMY_432 said:


> And how much fat did you gain? I have never ate 500g of protein and 10k cals and I've gone from 9 1/2st to 15.7 at 5'7


How much did you eat then?


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## bigD29

Gorgeous_George said:


> no, i dont fancy destroying my liver
> 
> *What you mean? Can too much protein be bad for the Liver?*
> 
> trolololol


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## ausbuilt

Gorgeous_George said:


> no, i dont fancy destroying my liver


not from the protein, but from the **** load of AAS to use it? :lol:


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## TIMMY_432

Fat said:


> How much did you eat then?


300-350g protein, 3500-4000 cals.


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## Fat

TIMMY_432 said:


> 300-350g protein, 3500-4000 cals.


15 stone = 210lbs

210*1.5= 315g of protein

So you ate like someone 15+ stone and got there?


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## TIMMY_432

Fat said:


> 15 stone = 210lbs
> 
> 210*1.5= 315g of protein
> 
> So you ate like someone 15+ stone and got there?


217lbs *cough cough* lol no I haven't always ate 300g+ protein, I've always roughly stuck to the hole 1.5g protein for every 1lb of body weight. So when I started out at 9 1/2st id eat 200g protein, then the heavier I got the more protein and cals id eat etc.


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## RowRow

TIMMY_432 said:


> And how much fat did you gain? I have never ate 500g of protein and 10k cals and I've gone from 9 1/2st to 15.7 at 5'7


Not that much over what I'd already had actually, I was hardly lean to begin with but I didn't gain fat excessively.

I went from 97kg (15.2st) to114kg( 18.1st) eating increasingly more.


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## Kennyken

TIMMY_432 said:


> 217lbs *cough cough* lol no I haven't always at 300g+ protein, I've always roughly stuck to the hole 1.5g protein for every 1lb of body weight. So when I started out at 9 1/2st id eat 200g protein, then the heavier I got the more protein and cals id eat etc.


is that lbm or whole weight?


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## Fat

Hasn't MacUK been on 500g protein and gained a lot recently?



Kennyken said:


> is that lbm or whole weight?


The formula is whole weight mate.


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## deemann

500g protein thats alot but is possible ,how much carbs and fat is in this diet ....I find high carbs hard to stomoch


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## squatthis

To the guys eating 500+, do you consume this much while cutting?


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## baggsy1436114680

Fat said:


> Hasn't MacUK been on 500g protein and gained a lot recently?
> 
> Lol with that amount of gear what do you expect


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## Mitch.

squatthis said:


> To the guys eating 500+, do you consume this much while cutting?


I'm going to start eating 500g and will do so whether cutting or bulking.

When bulking I'll up carbs and fats and when cutting cut carbs and fats - still yet to work out what the amounts will be.


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## squatthis

hctiM said:


> I'm going to start eating 500g and will do so whether cutting or bulking.
> 
> When bulking I'll up carbs and fats and when cutting cut carbs and fats - still yet to work out what the amounts will be.


I was only asking, as I'm cutting at the moment on around 2500 kcals. 500g of protein would take up 2000 kcals leaving me only 500 for carbs and fats. I'm not sure this would be enough to give me the energy to get through my work day and training. I currently hit around 250-300g protein a day.

Saying that, I'm thinking of giving it a go.


----------



## ausbuilt

squatthis said:


> I was only asking, as I'm cutting at the moment on around 2500 kcals. 500g of protein would take up 2000 kcals leaving me only 500 for carbs and fats. I'm not sure this would be enough to give me the energy to get through my work day and training. I currently hit around 250-300g protein a day.
> 
> Saying that, I'm thinking of giving it a go.


my training and diet:

Dieting and getting ready for Competition.pdf

when bulking, I do the same 500g protein, up fats to 50-70g and carbs to about 150-200g.


----------



## aces_high_4

ausbuilt said:


> my training and diet:
> 
> View attachment 88223
> 
> 
> when bulking, I do the same 500g protein, up fats to 50-70g and carbs to about 150-200g.


That's quite low carbs and fats for building. Do you get good gains?


----------



## Mitch.

ausbuilt said:


> my training and diet:
> 
> View attachment 88223
> 
> 
> when bulking, I do the same 500g protein, up fats to 50-70g and carbs to about 150-200g.


Aus you say your bulk for 4 weeks and cut for 4 weeks.

Do you follow the last 4 weeks of that diet plan or jump every other week?

Also is your training pretty much what it says in the PDF?


----------



## Mingster

I'm cutting at the minute and I'm doing 500g+ of protein. I'm eating around 4600 calories daily and leaning up nicely on that.


----------



## Rick89

i did a cut on about 500 or so

carbs were at around 100 a day with two hours cardio a day

looked pretty good aswell


----------



## Natty.Solider

Mingster said:


> I'm cutting at the minute and I'm doing 500g+ of protein. I'm eating around 4600 calories daily and leaning up nicely on that.


whats your weight and bf before the above ming?


----------



## ausbuilt

aces_high_4 said:


> That's quite low carbs and fats for building. Do you get good gains?


i think so... i've gone from 8% and 96kg to same BF and 102kg in the past 3 months....



hctiM said:


> Aus you say your bulk for 4 weeks and cut for 4 weeks.
> 
> Do you follow the last 4 weeks of that diet plan or jump every other week?
> 
> Also is your training pretty much what it says in the PDF?


i follow the last week of that diet for 4 weeks. every 4weeks and bulk in between. When dieting, training is exactly like that (but may change some exercises). I also add 30min cardio after the first morning workout. When bulking i train 3days/week have 200g carbs on training days, 150 on non-training.



Mingster said:


> I'm cutting at the minute and I'm doing 500g+ of protein. I'm eating around 4600 calories daily and leaning up nicely on that.


F**K BEAST!


----------



## Big_Idiot

Mingster said:


> I'm cutting at the minute and I'm doing 500g+ of protein. I'm eating around 4600 calories daily and leaning up nicely on that.


Cutting on 4600, thats some good going! You must have some high lbm!


----------



## big_jim_87

Fatstuff said:


> So I hear lol - I can always trim the fat at a later date


bud if you eat pretty good/clean you will have minimal fat gains any way...

its all about macros and the timing etc.


----------



## Mingster

Natty.Solider said:


> whats your weight and bf before the above ming?


I'm not due a weigh in until next weekend but I'm probably around the mid 240lbs range as I usually lose 2/3lbs a week on a cut. I don't do bf% but I'd say I'm a tad leaner than in my avi at the minute.


----------



## big_jim_87

TIMMY_432 said:


> So your saying that someone who is 13st needs the same or should be eating the same amount of protein to someone who is 18st???


no maybe nite that much of a jump but you do it in phases... at 13stn eat like your 15stn...

the guy at 18stn should be eating like he is 20stn if he wants to grow any further...

dnt kid your self bud to grow at a good rate you should be pushing the cals in! never really hungry and should be forcing food in... your body dnt wanna be big you need to force it to be...


----------



## big_jim_87

RowRow said:


> If you wanna be 18stone, you need to eat like someone who is 18stone. If you are 13stone and eat as such you shall remain 13stone.
> 
> On 10k calories a day I have gone up to just over 18stone eating less than the amount it takes for me to be 18st and I won't reach 18st, logically really.


lol this is it mate and now your over 18stn you dnt eat like an 18stn guy you eat like a 20stn guy or tout remain 18stn lol its fvcked up really but this is the wait is lol


----------



## big_jim_87

squatthis said:


> To the guys eating 500+, do you consume this much while cutting?


no... off season us 4-500g on a prep i keep a basic 300g min

when cutting (dropping nd is the aim not like a body recomp were drop fat gain lbm) you need a maintenance level of pro and i find 300g is plenty for me at this time as overall cals need to be low enough to drop fat but high enough to keep lbm, the aim is not to gain any lbm etc so no need for excessive amounts of any thing... just enough of every thing to maintain and drop fat.


----------



## big_jim_87

baggsy said:


> if that's what he's gotta do ti get results that'd what he's gotta do... results are results at the end of the day...


----------



## Fatstuff

big_jim_87 said:


> no... off season us 4-500g on a prep i keep a basic 300g min
> 
> when cutting (dropping nd is the aim not like a body recomp were drop fat gain lbm) you need a maintenance level of pro and i find 300g is plenty for me at this time as overall cals need to be low enough to drop fat but high enough to keep lbm, the aim is not to gain any lbm etc so no need for excessive amounts of any thing... just enough of every thing to maintain and drop fat.


I think this is a very sensible approach and a decent frame of mind!! Who'd of thought it after some of your less serious posts


----------



## biglbs

Fatstuff said:


> Funny all the big BBers and strength athletes and generally bigger guys are all eating a large amount of food and cals and I get bumraped in my journal over trying it on my current cycle as a project , by a pencilneck online 'guru'!!


Keep the faith,fook nobbollacks:rolleyes:


----------



## legoheed

ooft iv tried but i just cant eat that much in 1 bloody day lol .. well dont think i can haha


----------



## big_jim_87

Fatstuff said:


> I think this is a very sensible approach and a decent frame of mind!! Who'd of thought it after some of your less serious posts


lol if you ever come across my journal pop in n have a look... im pretty sensible when it comes ti what i do... just take **** out of every in else lol


----------



## Fatstuff

big_jim_87 said:


> lol if you ever come across my journal pop in n have a look... im pretty sensible when it comes ti what i do... just take **** out of every in else lol


Lol - I was actually thinking of taking a look in there already after today's posts


----------



## Mingster

I'm not a bodybuilder so cutting for me isn't the same thing as it would be for someone on a contest prep. I'm currently on a short bulk/short cut routine as recommended by Aus and I must admit I'm liking the results so far. On average I lift weights for 3 days a week and do a bit cardio and some core work on the other 4 days.


----------



## Fatstuff

Mingster said:


> I'm not a bodybuilder so cutting for me isn't the same thing as it would be for someone on a contest prep. I'm currently on a short bulk/short cut routine as recommended by Aus and I must admit I'm liking the results so far. On average I lift weights for 3 days a week and do a bit cardio and some core work on the other 4 days.


You'll be greased up and in a thong on stage before you know it


----------



## Mingster

Fatstuff said:


> You'll be greased up and in a thong on stage before you know it


HaHa. Don't hold your breath:lol:


----------



## big_jim_87

Mingster said:


> I'm not a bodybuilder so cutting for me isn't the same thing as it would be for someone on a contest prep. I'm currently on a short bulk/short cut routine as recommended by Aus and I must admit I'm liking the results so far. On average I lift weights for 3 days a week and do a bit cardio and some core work on the other 4 days.


i did this for yrs and its a good way to keep lean and gains are not bad...

i was working on the rebound effect so id diet hard for say 4-6weeks then rebound with loads of food and because like with a prep the body craves the food so when it goes in the body makes the most of it as its been starved for the last few weeks...

so far iv had 6months between shows so 3month bulk 3month prep for the last yr or so... id like a good 6months plus of off season...


----------



## RowRow

big_jim_87 said:


> i did this for yrs and its a good way to keep lean and gains are not bad...
> 
> i was working on the rebound effect so id diet hard for say 4-6weeks then rebound with loads of food and because like with a prep the body craves the food so when it goes in the body makes the most of it as its been starved for the last few weeks...
> 
> so far iv had 6months between shows so 3month bulk 3month prep for the last yr or so... id like a good 6months plus of off season...


Do you prefer the mini bulk and cut approach opposed to a more traditional longer offseason then cut?


----------



## XRichHx

Scary the amount of big guys in here using 500g protein and getting results.

Speaks for itself IMO.


----------



## weeman

big_jim_87 said:


> 4.5k cals? is this for a small child? lol
> 
> right now not really keeping track just keep pro at a min of 50g per meal but typically more... est 5-6k a day still.
> 
> last time i was counting cals on a bulk i was aiming for 7k cals lol 500pro 800-1000carb and the rest from fat 1-200g. boom! that's how to grow!
> 
> *i would say any more then 500g pro is prob too much... 500g surely the limit imo... carbs and fats i guess its about how you respond...*


that statement there makes no sense jimbo,why are you drawing that conclusion based on the protein belief but then say its how you respond on the fats and carbs?

Fact is what you siad in the latter part applies to the former too,its how you respond to all aspects that determines what you actually need,i sit generally over 110kg and fairly lean as you know,yet i only consume 3-400g VERY top end,most commonly 350g a day,carbs around the same,fats anywhere between 100-150,yet i grow steadily year in year out on those macros,i have shot for more and it did nothing but get me fat.

Also people keep quoting calories in this thread,it means fuk all,its akin to saying you take 3ml a week of test,doesnt mean fuk all till you dial the amount of macros involved into the equation.



big_jim_87 said:


> bud if you eat pretty good/clean you will have minimal fat gains any way...
> 
> its all about macros and the timing etc.


Thats not true,you eat 6ckals clean or half clean and half sh1te,you will get fat,end of.

I actually quoted a lot more people than just jims posts above dont know why its not brought them up,but jim knows me well enough to know am not singling him out here.

Imo there is an equal amount of bollox to truth ratio being spouted in this thread,in no shape or form does everyone need to be eating in the neighbourhood of 500g prot to get big,vast majority of posters in this thread alone would have an actual lean bodymass of 200lbs or less,lucky if can count 2-3 max that will be much over that mark,not a fkn chance is anywhere near the neighbourhood of 500g prot needed for that,and dont get me wrong i am an advocate of high prot intake (1.8g per LEAN lb of bodyweight) and have prepped enough people year in year out for the past fuk knows how many years to say i have tried every conceivable method of prot/carb/fat combo's with people,and will even further the point that recently due to hosting the bodybuilding radio show i now do that insight into the TOP guys diets etc really does differ HUGELY from what is being said in this thread.

All that being said,if i were to be asked should i eat 250g prot a day forever more to keep making gains or 500g,eat 500g all day long,do you NEED to consume that to get big?no not at all,will it accelarate gains?marginally at best,at the end of the day everyone will reach a point where they can only gain muscle so fast with all factors brought into it,regardless of how much more they keep pounding themselves with macors and drugs,if it werent the case then we would all be 500lb beasts.......


----------



## weeman

XRichHx said:


> Scary the amount of big guys in here using 500g protein and getting results.
> 
> Speaks for itself IMO.


no mate,it doesnt really,you have a handful of guys with a modicum of size talking to newbes and guys who are starting out the journey at best,doesnt really prove much at all,especially not when you have someone like myself who matches and beats most of the posters in actual muscle carried and says the opposite of what you are reading,in other words it further emphasises my point of its an individual thing,yes it will work to a point but at what need or expense?


----------



## Mingster

Welcome to the debate Weeman

Whilst a lot of what you say makes sense I find it a little presumptuous to suggest that the methods uses successfully by yourself and other 'top guys' will work for all. A definition of successful would be useful here. Not everyone, myself especially, has ever attempted to attain the physique of a successful bodybuilder. I have trained almost exclusively for strength for 30 years now and any muscle I have developed has been a by-product of that goal. Who knows how much muscle I would 'carry' if I had trained with that target in mind?

I have also tried many, many different approaches over time and now I am trying another one. Will it work? Who knows? But I'm happy to give it a go to find out. I've been bigger in the past. I've also been leaner and more muscular in appearance. Rarely, however, do I remember being as big and lean together At the moment this system is working for me and I'm sure if, after all these years lifting, you found a formula that was producing results you would carry on and give it a good old go.


----------



## weeman

Mingster said:


> Welcome to the debate Weeman
> 
> Whilst a lot of what you say makes sense I find it a little presumptuous to suggest that the methods uses successfully by yourself and other 'top guys' will work for all. A definition of successful would be useful here. Not everyone, myself especially, has ever attempted to attain the physique of a successful bodybuilder. I have trained almost exclusively for strength for 30 years now and any muscle I have developed has been a by-product of that goal. Who knows how much muscle I would 'carry' if I had trained with that target in mind?
> 
> I have also tried many, many different approaches over time and now I am trying another one. Will it work? Who knows? But I'm happy to give it a go to find out. I've been bigger in the past. I've also been leaner and more muscular in appearance. Rarely, however, do I remember being as big and lean together At the moment this system is working for me and I'm sure if, after all these years lifting, you found a formula that was producing results you would carry on and give it a good old go.


hey buddy 

reading back it does come across as presumptious i guess lol i do not intend it to be that way,i have been involved in bbing for 20+ years now,helping prep people for going on 7 years,have insight into such a broad spectrum of techniques from some of the top prep guys on the planet and from the very bottom rung bbers/strongmen etc right thru to the pinnacle of our sports ( i have been warned not to mention the forum i am in affiliation with for varying reasons but if you know then you will realise i am talking about the very top end of the sport and thousands have heard the evidence,not simply name dropping bonanza lol)

YOu nailed what i said in the last paragraph basically,everyone is different and things will work to a varying degree of success with many,you have found this works very well with you and thats great,but i could almost bet a years earnings that it will be 50/50 or less as to the success rate if every poster applied the same principles,there is NO QUESTION if everyone on this forum were to suddenly adopt eating 500g prot consistently day in day out they would start to gain and appear very different quickly,but also to most who say they are regimented in their diet that are posting and considering this are far from consistent in their current plan,its the most common thing i come across,and that would be the ACTUAL single biggest factor in them changing and gaining,the sudden application of conistency in their day to day,rather than what they claim it to be.

For instance,off at slight tangent here,helping a guy do the birmingham qualifier,he has competed cpl years,got in touch with me asked for me to come look perhaps prep him,visited told him i want him eating 300/300/100 (p/c/f) and to get in touch with me in ten days time (reason being kids were going to spain for week and me and mrs were off to fuk our way around scotland whilst they were away lol but i digress) i payed him a visit the other night,instantly even tho totally covered up i could tell he was fuller etc,he peeled off and showed me that he had not only dropped 3kg but actually gotten bigger (yeah readers are gnr have a time getting head round that one) he looked a new man,split quads,feathering lower lats etc etc,he said couldnt believe how wrong he had gotten it before,took it for granted he was eating uniformly what he supposed to be but hadnt been,i had him weigh every fkn morsel going on a plate,and it changed his world.

Point htere is thats an experienced bber,a 15 year trainee who reckoned to have tried all sorts,in one instant his world turned upside down and he is gaining like a train and leaning out perfectly at 12-13 weeks out,no where near the macros discussed in this thread and if they were he would factually grind to a halt,no question because his body wouldnt respond as favourably to that approach.

As with everything in bbing (i know you saying you aint bber but you know what i mean) there is more than one way to skin a cat,many methods are equally as important as others,and this game being what it is ie the quest for the fabled route to freaky lean mass or the secret pill,fad springs to mind when seeing this kind of thread etc on the go.

Its all cyclical,wont be long before another method comes along procalaiming to be the new way forward with many a disciple hailing its rewards


----------



## weeman

Mingster said:


> Welcome to the debate Weeman
> 
> Whilst a lot of what you say makes sense I find it a little presumptuous to suggest that the methods uses successfully by yourself and other 'top guys' will work for all. A definition of successful would be useful here. Not everyone, myself especially, has ever attempted to attain the physique of a successful bodybuilder. I have trained almost exclusively for strength for 30 years now and any muscle I have developed has been a by-product of that goal. Who knows how much muscle I would 'carry' if I had trained with that target in mind?
> 
> I have also tried many, many different approaches over time and now I am trying another one. Will it work? Who knows? But I'm happy to give it a go to find out. I've been bigger in the past. I've also been leaner and more muscular in appearance. Rarely, however, do I remember being as big and lean together At the moment this system is working for me and I'm sure if, after all these years lifting, you found a formula that was producing results you would carry on and give it a good old go.


btw,as a side......for a none bber you aint half gnr be p1ssing off a lot of the actual bbers on here as you out muscle them and outlean them,kind of reminds me of jw007 a lot that lol he took great delight in training like a powerlifter/strongman type but looking like a fkn huge bber lol


----------



## ausbuilt

big_jim_87 said:


> i did this for yrs and its a good way to keep lean and gains are not bad...
> 
> i was working on the rebound effect so id diet hard for say 4-6weeks then rebound with loads of food and because like with a prep the body craves the food so when it goes in the body makes the most of it as its been starved for the last few weeks...
> 
> so far iv had 6months between shows so 3month bulk 3month prep for the last yr or so... id like a good 6months plus of off season...


thats kind of the reason why i do the mini/bulk cut- rebound gains and also its the only to keep gains coming when on cylce all the time..



weeman said:


> no mate,it doesnt really,you have a handful of guys with a modicum of size talking to newbes and guys who are starting out the journey at best,doesnt really prove much at all,especially not when you have someone like myself who matches and beats most of the posters in actual muscle carried and says the opposite of what you are reading,in other words it further emphasises my point of its an individual thing,yes it will work to a point but at what need or expense?


fair point weeman. Everyone is different, and definitely no point even trying 2g+/lb protein unless on a decent amount of AAS... I tried this approach and was pretty happy, as have quite a few others..



Mingster said:


> Welcome to the debate Weeman
> 
> Whilst a lot of what you say makes sense I find it a little presumptuous to suggest that the methods uses successfully by yourself and other 'top guys' will work for all. A definition of successful would be useful here. Not everyone, myself especially, has ever attempted to attain the physique of a successful bodybuilder. I have trained almost exclusively for strength for 30 years now and any muscle I have developed has been a by-product of that goal. Who knows how much muscle I would 'carry' if I had trained with that target in mind?
> 
> I have also tried many, many different approaches over time and now I am trying another one. Will it work? Who knows? But I'm happy to give it a go to find out. I've been bigger in the past. I've also been leaner and more muscular in appearance. Rarely, however, do I remember being as big and lean together At the moment this system is working for me and I'm sure if, after all these years lifting, you found a formula that was producing results you would carry on and give it a good old go.


ditto... got me in the best shape so far.... i've got a way to go to catch up to weeman though..


----------



## big_jim_87

RowRow said:


> Do you prefer the mini bulk and cut approach opposed to a more traditional longer offseason then cut?


i dnt have a staple approach altho i think both are effective methods to use...

I like to keep nd down tho so if i was on a longer bulk and condition was slipping away id drop cals or maybe add in cv or even a mini diet.

have to go by what's going on with you... can't really set a plan and stick to it regardless... need to assess all the time and do what you feel you need to...

if you get too far out of shape adding mass your more likely to loose lbm getting back into shape...


----------



## big_jim_87

weeman said:


> 1
> 
> that statement there makes no sense jimbo,why are you drawing that conclusion based on the protein belief but then say its how you respond on the fats and carbs?
> 
> Fact is what you siad in the latter part applies to the former too,its how you respond to all aspects that determines what you actually need,i sit generally over 110kg and fairly lean as you know,yet i only consume 3-400g VERY top end,most commonly 350g a day,carbs around the same,fats anywhere between 100-150,yet i grow steadily year in year out on those macros,i have shot for more and it did nothing but get me fat.
> 
> 2
> 
> Also people keep quoting calories in this thread,it means fuk all,its akin to saying you take 3ml a week of test,doesnt mean fuk all till you dial the amount of macros involved into the equation.
> 
> 3
> 
> Thats not true,you eat 6ckals clean or half clean and half sh1te,you will get fat,end of.
> 
> 4
> 
> I actually quoted a lot more people than just jims posts above dont know why its not brought them up,but jim knows me well enough to know am not singling him out here.
> 
> 5
> 
> Imo there is an equal amount of bollox to truth ratio being spouted in this thread,in no shape or form does everyone need to be eating in the neighbourhood of 500g prot to get big,vast majority of posters in this thread alone would have an actual lean bodymass of 200lbs or less,lucky if can count 2-3 max that will be much over that mark,not a fkn chance is anywhere near the neighbourhood of 500g prot needed for that,and dont get me wrong i am an advocate of high prot intake (1.8g per LEAN lb of bodyweight) and have prepped enough people year in year out for the past fuk knows how many years to say i have tried every conceivable method of prot/carb/fat combo's with people,and will even further the point that recently due to hosting the bodybuilding radio show i now do that insight into the TOP guys diets etc really does differ HUGELY from what is being said in this thread.
> 
> All that being said,if i were to be asked should i eat 250g prot a day forever more to keep making gains or 500g,eat 500g all day long,do you NEED to consume that to get big?no not at all,will it accelarate gains?marginally at best,at the end of the day everyone will reach a point where they can only gain muscle so fast with all factors brought into it,regardless of how much more they keep pounding themselves with macors and drugs,if it werent the case then we would all be 500lb beasts.......


1

the "its about how you respond" comment.

yea I see what your saying... of course it depends on what you need for all macros...

it was more a flying statement that you need to eat a lot to get big but not fat and depending on how you react to fats and carbs will be what decides how many you have... if that makes sense... was more a comment on what iv been doing...

2

I did say what macros i was on... gave a figure on cals then a quick rough break down of the cals...

3

sorry disagree here mate... you say cals are cals? if i had 6meals of McD's about 1k per meal or 6 clean meals would i look the same? 1st id be eating a lot less food as the McD's would be very cal dense... 2nd id be getting most my cals from sat fats and simple carbs... boom fat mother fvcker!

4

fvck you ass hole! single me out just cause im ginger... cvnt...

5

did i say every body... ill have to read over... if i did then i didn't mean it lol but sure id not say that...

the main post you quoted me on at the top was a bit of a bit of a get big or fvck off type of post... didn't actually think i was giving advice more talking about what i have tried... and a bit of a p1ss take dig at the classic guy with his 4k diet lol

and what ever you thought was truth or bolox in my posts nothing was a lie... its all what iv done or am doing or id not post it... so whether it works for others or not it seems to work for me atm so its bolox. (i know that bolox statement wasn't aimed at me just saying... lol)


----------



## big_jim_87

weeman said:


> no mate,it doesnt really,you have a handful of guys with a modicum of size talking to newbes and guys who are starting out the journey at best,doesnt really prove much at all,especially not when you have someone like myself who matches and beats most of the posters in actual muscle carried and says the opposite of what you are reading,in other words it further emphasises my point of its an individual thing,yes it will work to a point but at what need or expense?


it also points out you are older and been at this game for a long time and many more yrs then me... not sure how long but by the time i have been at this the same length of time you have ill be able to say if 500g is better then 350g...

you have had longer to build your body... of you had hit 500g maybe you'd have built it yrs earlier then you did then maybe pass it... who knows...

yes it is individual but id rather have too much then not enough...


----------



## big_jim_87

Bri i must say it is coming across like you think your right and every one else is wrong because you do the radio interview thing over on tm and have spoke with some top guys... not name dropping but on par... "oh i talk to top guys so my opinion out weighs all you [email protected]" lol.

always respected your opinion as you WELL know that... but you practically almost name drop by mentioning the radio interview thing... saying you talk to top guys is like saying im right because i talk to lee priest etc...

lol


----------



## Fatstuff




----------



## hackskii

BigA is a member on this board actually, I do respect him but I see some flaws in this approach of the number 500

This is the same guy that suggested the biggest guys took the most gear, and most of the guys lie about how much they take.

If I recall he had some health scare a couple of years ago. Anyway....

His diet was simple:

Consume 500 grams a day of protein, if you want to lose weight, drop the carbohydrates and fats, if you want to gain weight you just up the carbs and fats.

Simple.

But, I am going to play the devils advocate here.

First of all for the guys not utilizing lots of cals a day, this limits energy sources.

Protein can be converted into fuel but it takes energy and is not very efficient at doing so.

So, you risk ATP stores, vitamins, minerals, fiber, among other phytonutrients, anti-oxidants, enzymes, friendly bacteria, good fats, all for that good ol protein.

Not to mention the whole pH thing go go along with that.

When guys use very large amounts of protein one can gain some muscle.

But this wont happen forever, Bill Phillips wrote on this some time ago and suggests protein cycling.

John Berardi also talks about protein requirements, as well as many other pretty sharp guys, all would suggest that 500g is a bit much.

Your primary source of energy when weight training comes from carbs, which support ATP stores.

If ATP stores are low, and blood sugars are low, training is compromised.

What if taking in too much protein compromised your training?

What if too much protein was compromising the nutrition you needed for good health?

Remember, 500 is a number, a 150 pound guy is thinking yah, I got it now, information I can use, 500... :lol:


----------



## weeman

big_jim_87 said:


> 1
> 
> 3
> 
> *sorry disagree here mate... you say cals are cals? if i had 6meals of McD's about 1k per meal or 6 clean meals would i look the same? 1st id be eating a lot less food as the McD's would be very cal dense... 2nd id be getting most my cals from sat fats and simple carbs... boom fat mother fvcker! *
> 
> no sorry,my apologies what i ment was that excess kcals are excess kcals,you wont miraculously stay lean if you eat too many clean kcals vs too many sh1t kcals over what you need,either way both are gnr lead to fat gain,i hear ths touted all the time people saying eat big and clean and you wont get fat,yes you will if your taking in more than you need,its basic fundamentals that
> 
> *4*
> 
> *
> fvck you ass hole! single me out just cause im ginger... cvnt... *
> 
> you should actually be ashamed,in this day and age you havent adopted 'the disuise' like i have and took out shares in MT2 :lol:
> 
> *5*
> 
> *
> did i say every body... ill have to read over... if i did then i didn't mean it lol but sure id not say that...*
> 
> *
> the main post you quoted me on at the top was a bit of a bit of a get big or fvck off type of post... didn't actually think i was giving advice more talking about what i have tried... and a bit of a p1ss take dig at the classic guy with his 4k diet lol *
> 
> *
> *
> 
> *
> and what ever you thought was truth or bolox in my posts nothing was a lie... its all what iv done or am doing or id not post it... so whether it works for others or not it seems to work for me atm so its bolox. (i know that bolox statement wasn't aimed at me just saying... lol*)


dont know if you said everybody what i was meaning is that the general consesus in this thread seems to be thats whats needed,when there are thousands of examples out htere showing it neednt be the case 

dont know where the dig is with classic guy and 4k diet? did i miss something? christ my daily diet isnt much more than 4k if that lol when on the ball its prob that or very slightly more,no need for me to shoot up into 5-6k unless am looking to sport the marshmallow look again lol



big_jim_87 said:


> it also points out you are older and been at this game for a long time and many more yrs then me... not sure how long but by the time i have been at this the same length of time you have ill be able to say if 500g is better then 350g...
> 
> you have had longer to build your body... of you had hit 500g maybe you'd have built it yrs earlier then you did then maybe pass it... who knows...
> 
> yes it is individual but id rather have too much then not enough...


I have been training seriously since about 2005,before then it was half assed and fuk about,with huge gap in years of not training at all due to drink n drugs etc,when i was around 22-24 i would consume in the region of about 500g prot a day,certainly consistently over 400g a day,i looked like sh1t being truthful, from 2005 (when i was 30) i suddenly started training properly and taking gear properly for first time in life (everyone has seen the skinny fat transfotmation pics) and my macros have basically always hovered around the same in that space of time,and i have stayed in pretty decent shape year round on those macros too whilst steadily improving year in year out,thats where my sweet spot is,again emphasising the point that everyone is different,this is what has worked for me (and a tonne of others obv) anytime i start to up the prot towards the 500 mark or the like i get softer,i smell like cat p1ss and gain no faster than what i did on the lesser macros lol

I would rather have too much than too little as well,that one point is advocated all the time 



big_jim_87 said:


> Bri i must say it is coming across like you think your right and every one else is wrong because you do the radio interview thing over on tm and have spoke with some top guys... not name dropping but on par... "oh i talk to top guys so my opinion out weighs all you [email protected]" lol.
> 
> always respected your opinion as you WELL know that... but you practically almost name drop by mentioning the radio interview thing... saying you talk to top guys is like saying im right because i talk to lee priest etc...
> 
> lol


No mate,i am answering back in an eloquent and well put together way,you and many others in this thread are giving it 'eat big or fuk off' as you said,that is coming across as you are right all others are wrong,i am merely saying that i am speaking from a lot of experience,from being surrounded by others who's knowledge in this and what we do makes mine look infantile,i didnt mention the radio thing,you've brought that in (god help you man yo ueven said the name of the forum lol they gnr ban you here now lol)

My opinion has got fuk all to do with talking to the top guys,i could name drop plenty top guys names i have spoken to over the years who look incredible but are thick as pig sh1t when it comes to giving out advice,the peoples opinions i do appreciate and the ones who i would refer (or rather not in this case  ) are the ones who have walked the walk and talk the talk,year in year out producing results in themselves and others,forgive me for being in the fortunate position i am in regards that but mate,at the end of the day if your plasma telly breaks you dont take it to john smith across the road cause you heard he tinkers about a bit with electricals do you? no you take it to a reputable repairman that has good backing via satisfied customers and word of mouth,same thing here.

lol think i am right because of radio thing :lol: :lol:

actually we are gnr be doing interviews with athletes as they prep for the brits,i wanna do one with you calling everyone a cvnt,no matter what the question asked reply to it with your all cvnts :lol: :lol: i think that would be gold!

No mate not at all,in fact if you'll look and read all my posts i have never once said i am right and everyone else is wrong,have emphatically stated over and over that everyone is different and more than one way to skin a cat,i think/know my opinion carries weight because i am me mate,i am the guy who lives this sport every day,helps people day in day out,has produced results year in year out in myself and others,thats why my opinion carries weight 

On the flip side,so do you


----------



## big_jim_87

fvcking hell Bri... that was a long old reply... in sure I had things to add along the way but by the time id read all that id forgot what i had to say lol

long n short of it is I was pulling your plonker lol

im not even sure what my macros have been for about the last month... just pretty clean and plenty of...

at the end of the day id say the pro cycling is the best idea as i tend to do this subconsciously as ill up it and push hard for a period then relax a little then push it etc

seem to get accelerated results when pushing it but still get results when relaxing a little...

the thing is id like to think that this game is all about diet and push that hard and you'll grow... of its not about diet then its drugs... id like to think its more diet then drugs...

I mean on a serious note... lets face it... you said you have been on sim cals and macros for yrs yet grow pretty consistent... but haven't the drug doses got consistently higher?

im not saying you rely on drugs at all before any one thinks that's what im getting at.

I think you need to keep pushing some thing be it food or drugs (training should be consistently harder any way but will hit a wall if one of the other two is not increased)

Id rather push the diet get all i can out of it with a set level of "sups" then think about "sups" eventually both have to increase massively from day one to further down the line to keep progressing...

iv found that if my strength hits a wall I go away and eat a little more for a week then it moves up...

FOR ME i can't see a set cal intake and set macros working for ever... of eventually need more food... and more pro...

think i may have drifted off the topic a bit...

any way.... SSN BABY YEA!


----------



## hackskii

But macros are important, if you do not get enough fats in your diet, you can become deficient in some hormones.


----------



## Guest

Well as the OP I say fvck it I'm giving it a shot anyway.

what i've tried before has gotten me to 230 or so and fat, that was bulking on high carbs, so im gonna try bulking on 500g protein and see where I end up.


----------



## big_jim_87

hackskii said:


> But macros are important, if you do not get enough fats in your diet, you can become deficient in some hormones.


plenty of... means I get plenty of...

usually 25-30g evoo 3x day (in shakes)15g fish oil pre bed and 4-6 large eggs. this is pretty average... will also have 40g cashew nuts quite often.

Usually... lol not all the time


----------



## marknorthumbria

i manage 350grams at 14.5 stone off cycle and maintain. im gonna try dump it up to 500grams on my next cycle starting next week. gona throw in another portion of meat/eggs/scoop of shake with each meal should do it


----------



## Mingster

I don't think it is realistic to expect 150lb guys to consume 500g of protein but, as has been mentioned, they will need to eat enough to become a 170lb guy, if that is their goal, and so on and so on.

As I've mentioned earlier in the thread, consistency is the key to diet imo. Your diet has to be something you can realistically eat week in and week out and I believe that very few people actually manage to do this. If this means more shakes so be it. If it means eating 3 large meals a day so be it. Whatever fits in with your lifestyle and is manageable on a consistent basis. Weeman is right, imo, when he says most people under or over estimate their macros. I recently worked mine out and found I was easily 500 calories wide of the mark.

Hacksii. At the moment I'm eating 300g of carbs and 150g of fat to go alongside my protein. I can't function on low carbs, I'm tired all day as it is lol....


----------



## hackskii

I do hear you, but when I say nobody needs 500 grams of protein, I meant it.

500 grams goes way over the top of what one needs to grow.

There are many dudes that have done studies on this, I will post them if someone wants, and absolutely none of them that are leaders in the field would endorse this.

Sure you can function on low carbs, the moment you upped the fats and let the body start using fats for fuel other than carbs.

Even very low carb diets once you transition from glucose to ketones, you have more stable energy.

Might have compromised ATP stores and loss of stamina in the gym, but functioning every day you will have more energy.

I have said for years guys eat too much protein.

And when guys say the biggest guys eat lots of protein, bull crap, I know a vegetarian that does not eat high protein and looks awesome, and many other examples.

I also think guys eat too many shakes.

I mentioned the fats above as many guys take in tons of protein powder.

Below about the 20% intake of fats disrupts hormones.

About 1/3rd of the diet should be in fats to support hormones.

I can see many problems with the ol 500 number, nothing supports this assumption of getting it in, nothing at all, except if you want to flush your money down the toilet, go for it.

Whole foods are best and I doubt someone needs to eat 14 chicken breasts a day to get that in (example).

Just basic logic would suggest this is not good, look at what you would have to consume to do so.


----------



## leeds_01

hackskii said:


> But macros are important, if you do not get enough fats in your diet, you can become deficient in some hormones.


amen brother


----------



## J.Smith

hackskii said:


> I do hear you, but when I say nobody needs 500 grams of protein, I meant it.
> 
> 500 grams goes way over the top of what one needs to grow.
> 
> There are many dudes that have done studies on this, I will post them if someone wants, and absolutely none of them that are leaders in the field would endorse this.
> 
> Sure you can function on low carbs, the moment you upped the fats and let the body start using fats for fuel other than carbs.
> 
> Even very low carb diets once you transition from glucose to ketones, you have more stable energy.
> 
> Might have compromised ATP stores and loss of stamina in the gym, but functioning every day you will have more energy.
> 
> I have said for years guys eat too much protein.
> 
> And when guys say the biggest guys eat lots of protein, bull crap, I know a vegetarian that does not eat high protein and looks awesome, and many other examples.
> 
> I also think guys eat too many shakes.
> 
> I mentioned the fats above as many guys take in tons of protein powder.
> 
> Below about the 20% intake of fats disrupts hormones.
> 
> About 1/3rd of the diet should be in fats to support hormones.
> 
> I can see many problems with the ol 500 number, nothing supports this assumption of getting it in, nothing at all, except if you want to flush your money down the toilet, go for it.
> 
> Whole foods are best and I doubt someone needs to eat 14 chicken breasts a day to get that in (example).
> 
> Just basic logic would suggest this is not good, look at what you would have to consume to do so.


Hacksii....what kind of fat numbers are you talking about then when say bulking and when say dieting...and what are your preferred sources?

For example...if im dieting now on 1800calories would you suggest 600cals are from fats? so maybe 250g protein, 50g carbs, 60-70g fats(evoo, fish oil, steak, primrose oil, coconut oil etc..)


----------



## Mingster

I'm consuming 300g of carbs and nearly 150g of fat already. Where do I get the other 2000+ calories from? I don't really want to increase these amounts....


----------



## hackskii

Well I like something in the area of 40/30/30 carbs/protein/fats, this would be a good balance of things and for something not mentioned eicasinoid production.

The fats are a third each of saturated, mono, and poly fats

Some guys do not eat that much over 2000 to 3000 calories.

If one was eating 500 grams, that would be 2000 calories right there.

I think a safe idea is to not eat so much protein that you compromise energy calories, and not compromise fat calories.


----------



## J.Smith

so when bulking or dieting you follow those macros? cos if im on 1800cald that means ill only be getting 540cals from protein. so would look like

180g protein, 180g carbs and 80g fats when dieting.....is that right?


----------



## hackskii

Mingster said:


> I'm consuming 300g of carbs and nearly 150g of fat already. Where do I get the other 2000+ calories from? I don't really want to increase these amounts....


So, you need over 4500 calories a day?

Your muscle will hold more carbs than you are taking in I hope you know.


----------



## Mingster

hackskii said:


> So, you need over 4500 calories a day?
> 
> Your muscle will hold more carbs than you are taking in I hope you know.


I'm cutting on this Hacksii lol. I burn a lot of energy


----------



## weeman

big_jim_87 said:


> fvcking hell Bri... that was a long old reply... in sure I had things to add along the way but by the time id read all that id forgot what i had to say lol
> 
> long n short of it is I was pulling your plonker lol
> 
> *lol yeah i do waffle on a bit lol*
> 
> im not even sure what my macros have been for about the last month... just pretty clean and plenty of...
> 
> at the end of the day id say the pro cycling is the best idea as i tend to do this subconsciously as ill up it and push hard for a period then relax a little then push it etc
> 
> seem to get accelerated results when pushing it but still get results when relaxing a little...
> 
> *i totally agree with that there mate,i sort of do this by accident,you know in that way where your fires will be burning for aperiod of time then your bod tends to kick in as fatigue sets in or disinterest so a sort of downtime happens,but also in same respect not low enough to lose anything,just low enough to either gaining v slowly or maintain,then bang it back up once feeling reinvigorated,i think its a good way of listening to your bod,great gingers think alike eh *
> 
> the thing is id like to think that this game is all about diet and push that hard and you'll grow... of its not about diet then its drugs... id like to think its more diet then drugs...
> 
> I mean on a serious note... lets face it... you said you have been on sim cals and macros for yrs yet grow pretty consistent... but haven't the drug doses got consistently higher?
> 
> im not saying you rely on drugs at all before any one thinks that's what im getting at.
> 
> *thats the thing,not really,my drug use had always been very high,for a few reasons,one reason was because i could and suffer min side effects (heart failure aside pmsl) another reason compensated for my severe reccy and alcohol party lifestyle,then oddly and i guess kind of fortunately earlier this year after heart failure i was relegated to taking merely 300mg test every 10-14 days for guts of 6 months,maintaned my size and even got a little bit bigger lol*
> 
> *
> *
> 
> *
> dont get me wrong tho a lot of that is defo down to the base i have built plus probably body getting the chance to breath again after all those years of abuse,certainly couldnt expect anything better than to maintain on that dose if i were to continue down that road for rest of my days.*
> 
> I think you need to keep pushing some thing be it food or drugs (training should be consistently harder any way but will hit a wall if one of the other two is not increased)
> 
> Id rather push the diet get all i can out of it with a set level of "sups" then think about "sups" eventually both have to increase massively from day one to further down the line to keep progressing...
> 
> *yeah agree with that there mate *
> 
> iv found that if my strength hits a wall I go away and eat a little more for a week then it moves up...
> 
> *i never really much pay attention to strength in honesty,its a pointer certainly but its another thing with me thats kinda been there for years,the poundages i am doing these days are not that far removed from what i was doing ten years ago,but i am a far larger bodybuilder now than i was then,kinda along the lines of its not how much your pressing but how you press it type situ,big weights got their place tho,defo,but more emphasis as bodybuilders on how we feel them *
> 
> FOR ME i can't see a set cal intake and set macros working for ever... of eventually need more food... and more pro...
> 
> think i may have drifted off the topic a bit...
> 
> any way.... SSN BABY YEA!


nah mate you ment EXTREME NUTRITION baby,almost an unfair advantage!!!!


----------



## hackskii

Mingster said:


> I'm cutting on this Hacksii lol. I burn a lot of energy


I will let you figure this one out by your self with some questions to poke you in the right direction.

You are burning alot of calories right?

This would suggest you need energy right?

What is the most efficient source of fuel a weight lifter needs?

Something that is efficient, something that supports ATP stores, something that you can use in the gym to fuel high intensity training.

Something that stores in the liver (approx 70 grams), something that stores in muscle (depending on how much muscle 400 grams or more), something that the body can tap into very easy with no conversion.

What?

The answer to this question would be the answer you need.


----------



## weeman

hackskii said:


> I do hear you, but when I say nobody needs 500 grams of protein, I meant it.
> 
> 500 grams goes way over the top of what one needs to grow.
> 
> There are many dudes that have done studies on this, I will post them if someone wants, and absolutely none of them that are leaders in the field would endorse this.
> 
> Sure you can function on low carbs, the moment you upped the fats and let the body start using fats for fuel other than carbs.
> 
> Even very low carb diets once you transition from glucose to ketones, you have more stable energy.
> 
> Might have compromised ATP stores and loss of stamina in the gym, but functioning every day you will have more energy.
> 
> *I have said for years guys eat too much protein.*
> 
> *
> And when guys say the biggest guys eat lots of protein, bull crap, I know a vegetarian that does not eat high protein and looks awesome, and many other examples.*
> 
> *
> I also think guys eat too many shakes.*
> 
> *
> *
> 
> *
> I mentioned the fats above as many guys take in tons of protein powder.*
> 
> *
> Below about the 20% intake of fats disrupts hormones.*
> 
> *
> About 1/3rd of the diet should be in fats to support hormones.*


Its not bullcrap that the biggest guys eat lots of protein,thats absoloute fact,no matter what anyone thinks! The guy you mention will very much be an exception to the rule,much like the way con is an exception,he doesnt eat an overly high amount of protein but he has inhuman muscle building genetics,for those tiny perventage yeah a massive amount of prot may not need to be consumed,but for the rest of us mortals its very much the case.

And we could argue the protein powder thing all day,plenty guys out there with monster physiques using shakes as 50% of their diet,i dont think health etc is at the forefront of their minds when trying to achieve what they are doing :lol:


----------



## Fatstuff

Lets face it ppl - beer builds the best physiques and that's that!!


----------



## weeman

hackskii said:


> I will let you figure this one out by your self with some questions to poke you in the right direction.
> 
> You are burning alot of calories right?
> 
> This would suggest you need energy right?
> 
> What is the most efficient source of fuel a weight lifter needs?
> 
> Something that is efficient, something that supports ATP stores, something that you can use in the gym to fuel high intensity training.
> 
> Something that stores in the liver (approx 70 grams), something that stores in muscle (depending on how much muscle 400 grams or more), something that the body can tap into very easy with no conversion.
> 
> What?
> 
> The answer to this question would be the answer you need.


Scott your post doesnt make sense in relation to his statement,he is telling you he is cutting and burns a lot of calories,therefor he doesnt need more carbs lol


----------



## weeman

Fatstuff said:


> Lets face it ppl - beer builds the best physiques and that's that!!


******,its vodka,everyone knows this,i was weaned from titty mil using vodka as a baby and now look at me!


----------



## hackskii

J.Smith said:


> so when bulking or dieting you follow those macros? cos if im on 1800cald that means ill only be getting 540cals from protein. so would look like
> 
> 180g protein, 180g carbs and 80g fats when dieting.....is that right?


Well, actually yes.

720 cals for each if you were cutting.

I would pay close attention to the weight loss you are getting.

Aggressive weight loss with under 15% bodyfat equates to more muscle loss.

If you were 30% bodyfat, then yes, no problem as the other energy is being used burning fat and net loss wont equate to much muscle loss.

In general, if you are really fat and diet, you wont lose alot of muscle, if you are very lean and aggressivly lose fat, more muscle will be lost.

But the flip side of the coin is opposite here.

Lean guy bulks, more muscle than fat guys bulks.

So, a 30% bodyfat guy can lose 3 pounds a week.

But a guy 10% cant afford that luxury of weight loss as it will be equal or more muscle than fat.


----------



## Fatstuff

weeman said:


> ******,its vodka,everyone knows this,i was weaned from titty mil using vodka as a baby and now look at me!


Low cal vodka pah!!


----------



## hackskii

weeman said:


> Scott your post doesnt make sense in relation to his statement,he is telling you he is cutting and burns a lot of calories,therefor he doesnt need more carbs lol


Dude, you have to read his post, he was asking what he needs to fill the gap after the 500 grams of protein.

Carbohydrates are the preferred sourced of energy for HIT, and that would be glucose.

He needed to make up some cals, he can use it either as a deficit or to maintain energy levels while cutting.

Either way, both will work.


----------



## hackskii

weeman said:


> Its not bullcrap that the biggest guys eat lots of protein,thats absoloute fact,no matter what anyone thinks! The guy you mention will very much be an exception to the rule,much like the way con is an exception,he doesnt eat an overly high amount of protein but he has inhuman muscle building genetics,for those tiny perventage yeah a massive amount of prot may not need to be consumed,but for the rest of us mortals its very much the case.
> 
> And we could argue the protein powder thing all day,plenty guys out there with monster physiques using shakes as 50% of their diet,i dont think health etc is at the forefront of their minds when trying to achieve what they are doing :lol:


Hang on a minute, lets set the record strait.

Most bodybuilders eat alot of protein.

Hang on, need a beer and shot of tequilla.

OK, got that sorted.

We need to establish what is the requirement.

Society and the food pyramid is 15%.

WE know that is low.

I suggest 30%, and I eat more than that.

Extreme would be 80%?

See, when we talk numbers we all think different numbers.

500 too much, and not needed and a waste of money.

100 would be light depending on the person but lets change gears.

Some knowledgeable dudes suggest that athletes have a better utilization of protein than sedentary folks and thus need less.

Less?

Yep.


----------



## Fatstuff

How can I listen to this radio thing anyway weeman?


----------



## hackskii

Fatstuff said:


> How can I listen to this radio thing anyway weeman?


I would like to listen myself.

I like a Scot accent myself.

I bet his voice would make me wet. :lol:


----------



## Fatstuff

hackskii said:


> I would like to listen myself.
> 
> I like a Scot accent myself.
> 
> I bet his voice would make me wet. :lol:


Lol, don't take much with u hackskii u filthy old hairy Mott loving codger u!!


----------



## big_jim_87

hackskii said:


> Hang on a minute, lets set the record strait.
> 
> Most bodybuilders eat alot of protein.
> 
> Hang on, need a beer and shot of tequilla.
> 
> OK, got that sorted.
> 
> We need to establish what is the requirement.
> 
> Society and the food pyramid is 15%.
> 
> WE know that is low.
> 
> I suggest 30%, and I eat more than that.
> 
> Extreme would be 80%?
> 
> See, when we talk numbers we all think different numbers.
> 
> 500 too much, and not needed and a waste of money.
> 
> 100 would be light depending on the person but lets change gears.
> 
> Some knowledgeable dudes suggest that athletes have a better utilization of protein than sedentary folks and thus need less.
> 
> Less?
> 
> Yep.


are any of these studies to do with bodybuilding? are they tested on bbers? bbers on mass aas slin gh? surely you can put more pro to use when this is the case?


----------



## big_jim_87

Bri-

yea strength is nether here nor there really... atm I am trying to progress in strength but Im no were near my 260kx9 deadlift... but I pull it much slower and really feel it for the 4 reps I can get on it lol

same with any press... for me after a hamy tear and pec tear im much more aware of the feeling in the muscle... after any injury you become so aware of the feeling in the muscle because for a short time you are almost testing it to see if it can hold the weight or re rip... reps are very slow and the level of concentration I focus on the lift is were it should have always been...

so atm Im trying to progress with good form not just progress in weight any means... I could go gym tomorrow and beat my last chest session if i was to bounce the weight off my chest and do fast reps. but that'd not how I train...

I do find its a good indicator for progress tho...

but again this is what In doing now... next month Ill be banging on about high volume and fascia stretching lol (I do like high vol)

also id like more solids in my diet but tends to be 50/50 but most shakes are accompanied with solid food... like a oats, whey, and evoo shake with fruit, rice cakes, cereal etc otherwise id just not have the time or appetite... or funds... being sponsored by SSN is a God send! there products are so good! the highest quality and some of the best favoured whey iv ever tasted!

sure makes hitting a high pro intake easier!


----------



## big_jim_87

Fatstuff said:


> How can I listen to this radio thing anyway weeman?


its on testosteronemuscle.co.uk

iv not actually listened as can't get it on my phone.


----------



## hackskii

Fatstuff said:


> Lol, don't take much with u hackskii u filthy old hairy Mott loving codger u!!





big_jim_87 said:


> are any of these studies to do with bodybuilding? are they tested on bbers? bbers on mass aas slin gh? surely you can put more pro to use when this is the case?


Perhaps.

So, you think one needs 500 grams of cooked protein a day (more than a pound of cooked protein) to build mass?

If you build that in a week you would be awesome.

Tell me why so much?

Given you cut other macro's out of one's diet to achieve this not even achievable amount, why do you feel this is so?

I'm I the only one here that suggests this is comical, and without merrit?

Hey, I can make any claim, if it were true, it would be known.

This?

Fantasy, and perpetuated bro science with zero validation what so ever.

I will defend my position but someone has to bring something to the table other than 500 number:lol:

That is too much, gains will not be better over time, and one could compromise health.

Compromise health?

I will prove my compromise health once one brings a shred of evidence over too much protein.

Bring it boys, let the games begin.

Categorically state your case.


----------



## big_jim_87

hackskii said:


> I would like to listen myself.
> 
> I like a Scot accent myself.
> 
> I bet his voice would make me wet. :lol:


it depends... a real jock accent is like another Fvcking language...

Bri how dose your accent compare to Ryan? I could understand him no prob at body power...


----------



## Fatstuff

Just downloading the first 2 - have subscribed through iTunes too. I like training podcasts, there's not many decent ones out there!! Hacks pointed me to some good ones before!


----------



## Fatstuff

Right - I've listened to 15 secs, who the fcuk decided to put the jock on there  - hacks u might as well not bother m8 u got no fcukin chance understanding that :lol:


----------



## big_jim_87

hackskii said:


> Perhaps.
> 
> 1
> 
> So, you think one needs 500 grams of cooked protein a day (more than a pound of cooked protein) to build mass?
> 
> If you build that in a week you would be awesome.
> 
> Tell me why so much?
> 
> Given you cut other macro's out of one's diet to achieve this not even achievable amount, why do you feel this is so?
> 
> 2
> 
> I'm I the only one here that suggests this is comical, and without merrit?
> 
> Hey, I can make any claim, if it were true, it would be known.
> 
> This?
> 
> Fantasy, and perpetuated bro science with zero validation what so ever.
> 
> 3
> 
> I will defend my position but someone has to bring something to the table other than 500 number:lol:
> 
> That is too much, gains will not be better over time, and one could compromise health.
> 
> Compromise health?
> 
> I will prove my compromise health once one brings a shred of evidence over too much protein.
> 
> Bring it boys, let the games begin.
> 
> Categorically state your case.


Haks baby you have skim read worse then I do lol

Iv not said any one needs 500g of any thing... I 100% have not said any thing about cutting out other macros lol I said what I was doing for a period of time 6-7k 450-500p 800-1000c 1-200f what was I cutting out to replace with pro? your creating a discussion in your own crazy head lol I guess its age you senile old cvnt! lol

2

Ill try any thing...

what claims have I made?

dnt ask me to provide the study as it was ages ago web surfing reading bits n bobs on all sorts of subjects but there was a study on Russian or Polish power lifters or oly lifters that would pro cycle and top number was 500g can't remember what bottom number was... or over how long lol not even sure on the out come lol but I think the out come was positive but gains dwindle and stop after so long... so cycling was the key as more of a shock factor... (it was ages ago i read this sorry for even bringing it up in so unclear lol) but in sure there is a study on it.

3

your basically talking about pro cycling...

there are many things we all do with no directly relevant studies... who will do a study on bbers... not many there more for medical purposes maybe sports studies and Olympic events but not many on bbing...

Im not a guru there are plenty of things i dnt know the answer to but very few things i will not try if only for a short time...

i dnt know what will and wnt work but ill do every thing o can think of and see what the out come is for me...


----------



## big_jim_87

anab0lic said:


> My diet is 70% fat 30% protein I've never felt healthy and never looked better... and gym performance is superior than when I used to eat carbs and/or had a higher protein intake. Once you become fat adapted this true for anyone.
> 
> Why does this work so well? Because that's how we ate for millions of years as human beings and we evolved to thrive on a diet like this....its that simple...


well i couldn't care less what my great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great grandad would eat because that cvnt wasn't a bber so its not relevant lol

there were no freaks back then but there are right now! why? because we eat diff now!

it may work if you want a beach boy look (surfer dude) but not if you wanna be a bber...

go ask Branch Warren if he eats like this... he will say some thing like "why the fvck would I eat like that im a bber ffs" lol


----------



## weeman

big_jim_87 said:


> Bri-
> 
> yea strength is nether here nor there really... atm I am trying to progress in strength but Im no were near my 260kx9 deadlift... but I pull it much slower and really feel it for the 4 reps I can get on it lol
> 
> same with any press... for me after a hamy tear and pec tear im much more aware of the feeling in the muscle... after any injury you become so aware of the feeling in the muscle because for a short time you are almost testing it to see if it can hold the weight or re rip... reps are very slow and the level of concentration I focus on the lift is were it should have always been...
> 
> so atm Im trying to progress with good form not just progress in weight any means... I could go gym tomorrow and beat my last chest session if i was to bounce the weight off my chest and do fast reps. but that'd not how I train...
> 
> I do find its a good indicator for progress tho...
> 
> but again this is what In doing now... next month Ill be banging on about high volume and fascia stretching lol (I do like high vol)
> 
> also id like more solids in my diet but tends to be 50/50 but most shakes are accompanied with solid food... like a oats, whey, and evoo shake with fruit, rice cakes, cereal etc otherwise id just not have the time or appetite... or funds... being sponsored by SSN is a God send! there products are so good! the highest quality and some of the best favoured whey iv ever tasted!
> 
> sure makes hitting a high pro intake easier!


lovin this post as it echoes my beliefs too mate.

apart from the ssn bit,everyone knows EXTREME NUTRITION is where its at mate 



big_jim_87 said:


> its on testosteronemuscle.co.uk
> 
> iv not actually listened as can't get it on my phone.


oh sweet jesus,your tempting the gods now mate,if i were to even put those initials up they would ban my ass clean out the stadium pmsl



big_jim_87 said:


> it depends... a real jock accent is like another Fvcking language...
> 
> Bri how dose your accent compare to Ryan? I could understand him no prob at body power...


Ryan sounds a bit sean connery ayrshire type,i am not far off barring i dont sound very sean connery,and a lot more sweary bits,ultimately you lazy fuk,just get it downloaded and listen to it,we got dorian yates and robby robinson coming up followed up with a swift anthony bailes chaser 



Fatstuff said:


> Just downloading the first 2 - have subscribed through iTunes too. I like training podcasts, there's not many decent ones out there!! Hacks pointed me to some good ones before!


good man,you'll be banned from here before you know it too at this rate lmao


----------



## Fatstuff

big_jim_87 said:


> well i couldn't care less what my great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great grandad would eat because that cvnt wasn't a bber so its not relevant lol
> 
> there were no freaks back then but there are right now! why? because we eat diff now!
> 
> it may work if you want a beach boy look (surfer dude) but not if you wanna be a bber...
> 
> go ask Branch Warren if he eats like this... he will say some thing like "why the fvck would I eat like that im a bber ffs" lol


Don't question him - he's the 'guru' and if u disagree with him he tells u that u r too dumb to understand


----------



## Fatstuff

weeman said:


> lovin this post as it echoes my beliefs too mate.
> 
> apart from the ssn bit,everyone knows EXTREME NUTRITION is where its at mate
> 
> oh sweet jesus,your tempting the gods now mate,if i were to even put those initials up they would ban my ass clean out the stadium pmsl
> 
> Ryan sounds a bit sean connery ayrshire type,i am not far off barring i dont sound very sean connery,and a lot more sweary bits,ultimately you lazy fuk,just get it downloaded and listen to it,we got dorian yates and robby robinson coming up followed up with a swift anthony bailes chaser
> 
> good man,you'll be banned from here before you know it too at this rate lmao


I won't because I don't post there it's full of cnuts


----------



## weeman

anab0lic said:


> My diet is 70% fat 30% protein I've never felt healthy and never looked better... and gym performance is superior than when I used to eat carbs and/or had a higher protein intake. Once you become fat adapted this true for anyone.
> 
> Why does this work so well? Because that's how we ate for millions of years as human beings and we evolved to thrive on a diet like this....its that simple...
> 
> Stop being brainwashed by protein company's that tell you you need X amount of protein per lb of LBM to build muscle or you must replete your gylocgen stores with their unbelievably profitable bags of flavored sugar..... its complete and utter horsesh1t and they are laughing all the way to the bank. Thats how all this bs started in the first place....they want your money...how do they get it? By you buying more of their product than you actually need... and they have done a damn good job at convincing people they really need that much.
> 
> Most of you guys on here could cut your intakes in half and some by even more than that looking at some of the absurd protein numbers ive seen posted on these boards AND YOUD GROW EXACTLY THE SAME PACE YOU WERE BEFORE. Try it and see for yourself, infact many of you would grow even better, because now you got more money to buy things that do make a difference like anabolic steroids.





big_jim_87 said:


> well i couldn't care less what my great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great grandad would eat because that cvnt wasn't a bber so its not relevant lol
> 
> there were no freaks back then but there are right now! why? because we eat diff now!
> 
> it may work if you want a beach boy look (surfer dude) but not if you wanna be a bber...
> 
> go ask Branch Warren if he eats like this... he will say some thing like "why the fvck would I eat like that im a bber ffs" lol


i'm with jim here all day long,anabOlic post pics up so we can see these humungous changes vs old pics of you,your missing the whole point of you have got what,say maybe 50 years+ worth of accumulated experimentation (real life not paper sh1t) competitive history,bbing experience posting in this thread that says your viewpoint there is actually a load of horsesh1t bud.

do you have a journal? just post before and after pics,i need to see this incredible difference you have made by flying in the face of common bber sense.


----------



## weeman

Fatstuff said:


> I won't because I don't post there it's full of cnuts


maybe mate,but its some cream of the crop cnuts,your a fool to miss the boat like that but hey ho,the guys that made this place what it was back in the day are whats making that place what it is now,18 months and 2nd/3rd most popular board in the country  cant deny facts bub.



anab0lic said:


> \
> 
> Retarded post. There wasnt freaks back there because a) the drugs that make guys freaks, back then didnt exist and B) we didnt lift weights in way which can produce significant hypertrophy.


wow awesome bodyswerve,put your money where your mouth is dude,or is this gnr be like so many replays,i dont need to yadda yadda,if not then dont post,simple as,proof means everything in this world,without it your nothing


----------



## Fatstuff

weeman said:


> i'm with jim here all day long,anabOlic post pics up so we can see these humungous changes vs old pics of you,your missing the whole point of you have got what,say maybe 50 years+ worth of accumulated experimentation (real life not paper sh1t) competitive history,bbing experience posting in this thread that says your viewpoint there is actually a load of horsesh1t bud.
> 
> do you have a journal? just post before and after pics,i need to see this incredible difference you have made by flying in the face of common bber sense.


He quotes sh1t genetics :lol:


----------



## Fatstuff

Weeman in regards tm m8, I am a member and tbh I got shot down for an opinion quite quickly and harshly as I'm not a 'cream of the crop' so not entitled to an opinion. This was over a year ago and left a bit of a foul taste in my mouth. But I'm sure that was just my own experience


----------



## big_jim_87

weeman said:


> lovin this post as it echoes my beliefs too mate.
> 
> apart from the ssn bit,everyone knows EXTREME NUTRITION is where its at mate
> 
> oh sweet jesus,your tempting the gods now mate,if i were to even put those initials up they would ban my ass clean out the stadium pmsl
> 
> Ryan sounds a bit sean connery ayrshire type,i am not far off barring i dont sound very sean connery,and a lot more sweary bits,ultimately you lazy fuk,just get it downloaded and listen to it,we got dorian yates and robby robinson coming up followed up with a swift anthony bailes chaser
> 
> good man,you'll be banned from here before you know it too at this rate lmao


I will I will... you know me mate if it takes more then 2min i cba... that'd why i get all flustered when you post a big reply... if i post more then a 2 sentence post it takes me ages as i sit n watch tv for 5min in betwee every couple of points... lol

and hold on! they can't ban me in not affiliated with tm in any way! just post there!

so Ryan is the cleaner posh sounding jock and you are the dirty scruff jock... lol

can Ryan understand you? lol


----------



## weeman

Fatstuff said:


> Weeman in regards tm m8, I am a member and tbh I got shot down for an opinion quite quickly and harshly as I'm not a 'cream of the crop' so not entitled to an opinion. This was over a year ago and left a bit of a foul taste in my mouth. But I'm sure that was just my own experience


ah fair do's mate can understand that,pm me what happened as i imagine wont like it if i were to discuss it with you here lol



big_jim_87 said:


> I will I will... you know me mate if it takes more then 2min i cba... that'd why i get all flustered when you post a big reply... if i post more then a 2 sentence post it takes me ages as i sit n watch tv for 5min in betwee every couple of points... lol
> 
> and hold on! they can't ban me in not affiliated with tm in any way! just post there!
> 
> so Ryan is the cleaner posh sounding jock and you are the dirty scruff jock... lol
> 
> can Ryan understand you? lol


pmsl i do same thing mate,go into post mode then....oh wait look,television (trance like state ensues for x amount of time) post wee bit more then oooooooooooooooo zone out to tv,continues on like this most of night lol

lol see thats the funny thing,when i first met DB from here cpl years ago he said he was really surprised as he expected me to sound brash,in your face jock type,but said he found me softly spoken and a gent lol i guess its funny,on the radio thing i do have my best phone voice on,apart from the last one where i recorded the crank call to holland and barrett with me proclaiming my son is a rapist in the making and fiddles with the dog after consuming the steroid shakes they sell in there :lol: :lol: makes more sense when you hear it lol


----------



## weeman

anab0lic said:


> You say you are all about real world results.....so am. Can you honestly say you have eaten a diet thats 70% fat 30% protein and continued to train and inject your ass the way you normally do... and compared the results between the two diet protocols? Because I have.


lol mate you obviously know nothing of me at all if you have to ask that :lol:

yes,yes i have,very much so,and took a fukin pharmacutical plant worth of aas along with it,result?looked like sh1t,theres plenty pics of me documented since i joined to prove so bud,afraid your gnr have to put up or shut up,every post you make without evidence is further putting what you say into doubt,your posting on a bbing forum on the net,thats the way of life on these things


----------



## weeman

btw anabolic fuk this percentage sh1t,it means nothing at all,whats your actual macros vs your bodyweight etc? and please again i beg of you (know you wont tho as its the nature of the beast) post pics to back these things up.


----------



## Fatstuff

His usual retort is bad genetics, then he posts a pic of someone else and says he has more mass than them and then says u must be dumb if u don't realise how big genetics plays as he is at his genetic limit because he started off as a wafer


----------



## big_jim_87

anab0lic said:


> \
> 
> Retarded post. There wasnt freaks back there because a) the drugs that make guys freaks, back then didnt exist and B) we didnt lift weights in way which can produce significant hypertrophy.


ok go ask Branch Warren if he eats like you lol.

the body was never designed to be freaky we force it! you say its designed to do well on 30/70 pro/fat... well yea to healthy and look OK that may well be the case but not if you wanna be a bber...

so you think no carbs and aas is what's needed?

LOL! ok bud ok

what about slin use? one of the most anabolic compounds... can't use this with no carbs...

you do what you do and ill eat my carbs as every other bber dose and we will see who gains are better


----------



## weeman

big_jim_87 said:


> ok go ask Branch Warren if he eats like you lol.
> 
> the body was never designed to be freaky we force it! you say its designed to do well on 30/70 pro/fat... well yea to healthy and look OK that may well be the case but not if you wanna be a bber...
> 
> so you think no carbs and aas is what's needed?
> 
> LOL! ok bud ok
> 
> what about slin use? one of the most anabolic compounds... can't use this with no carbs...
> 
> you do what you do and ill eat my carbs as every other bber dose and we will see who gains are better


BOSH!


----------



## big_jim_87

weeman said:


> ah fair do's mate can understand that,pm me what happened as i imagine wont like it if i were to discuss it with you here lol
> 
> pmsl i do same thing mate,go into post mode then....oh wait look,television (trance like state ensues for x amount of time) post wee bit more then oooooooooooooooo zone out to tv,continues on like this most of night lol
> 
> lol see thats the funny thing,when i first met DB from here cpl years ago he said he was really surprised as he expected me to sound brash,in your face jock type,but said he found me softly spoken and a gent lol i guess its funny,on the radio thing i do have my best phone voice on,apart from the last one where i recorded the crank call to holland and barrett with me proclaiming my son is a rapist in the making and fiddles with the dog after consuming the steroid shakes they sell in there :lol: :lol: makes more sense when you hear it lol


lol the funny thing is knowing its you that story about your son is 1/2 believable lol! poor Fin will surly end up as fvcked up as you! and fiddle with dogs in some kind of drug fueled crazy sex party lol... poor kid has no chance at being normal...

ppl say sim things about George tho lol


----------



## big_jim_87

70/30 would be a keto diet?

this is a good way for average ppl to lose weight but in terms of bbing and gains... no way!

I did a large portion of my last prep on a keto type diet and worked well... but needed to re intro carbs to look my best as too flat etc...


----------



## Fatstuff

Think he's trying to find a big enough lens to take a pic of his awesomeness?


----------



## weeman

anab0lic said:


> Oh really, show me/us this proof then? Lets see the exact diet you ran and the before and after pictures and then the diet that was ran with the same drug and training regime that produced superior results.... until you can produce that I too wont believe a fcuking word you say, your calling me out wanting proof....right back at ya fella....


go and search the journals section you lazy cvnt,look at my join date,i have been logging it since then,care not to look?dont be a bell end and post such nonsense,the proof is there to see.

pmsl


----------



## weeman

Fatstuff said:


> Think he's trying to find a big enough lens to take a pic of his awesomeness?


i think so,or google up more excuses to avoid posting pics of his subpar self 

notice its always the cvnts with the mediocre physiques that post this tripe?


----------



## Fatstuff

weeman said:


> i think so,or google up more excuses to avoid posting pics of his subpar self
> 
> notice its always the cvnts with the mediocre physiques that post this tripe?


It's genetics :lol:


----------



## weeman

anab0lic said:


> You know when I was calling people in your journal stupid....I wasnt actually referring to you....but having read your posts in this thread and some of the other complete and utter stupidity you post.....you have pretty much demonstrated how you are lacking any real substance between your ears.
> 
> BTW how are the fat gains coming along?


yawn yet more avoidance,you do realise with every post you make without proof you lose more and more credibility?

just saying........


----------



## Fatstuff

anab0lic said:


> You know when I was calling people in your journal stupid....I wasnt actually referring to you....but having read your posts in this thread and some of the other complete and utter stupidity you post.....you have pretty much demonstrated how you are lacking any real substance between your ears.
> 
> BTW how are the fat gains coming along?


Great mate , gained 4 inches on my waist already, quite pleased actually


----------



## Fatstuff

Lolz


----------



## weeman

anab0lic said:


> You know if i could sum this forum up in one sentence it would be: The blind leading the blind.


i'd defo agree there mate,bit harsh but largely true :lol:

oooft time to see if the mods still have sense of humour lol


----------



## Fatstuff

weeman said:


> i'd defo agree there mate,bit harsh but largely true :lol:
> 
> oooft time to see if the mods still have sense of humour lol


There's that tm elitism that everybody loves!!!!!


----------



## weeman

anab0lic said:


> says the guy that's not put forth any proof himself...... 'yawn.'


the guy who has journals and proof spanning his time from joining to right now,yeah mate,no proof,come on bud try harder than that,seriously,is that it????i have more pics posted on this fkn forum than anyone,more self whoring more self degradation,more naked and clothed pics than you would expect to see in a lifetime,more honesty in my self destructive lifestyle right thru to my multiple class winning physique than you could shake a stick at,and your gnr sit htere with some self righteous ****y post and a fkn avy taken half in the dark hoping to get the best possible light to show of your guns that are smaller than my birds?

get a grip you tool and go use the search system,at least have the intelligence to investigate my posts before you fkn doubt me :lol:


----------



## weeman

Fatstuff said:


> There's that tm elitism that everybody loves!!!!!


the expendables aint got sh1t on us mate :lol:


----------



## Fatstuff

weeman said:


> the expendables aint got sh1t on us mate :lol:


Another bunch of old knackered hasbeens :lol:


----------



## weeman

Fatstuff said:


> Another bunch of old knackered hasbeens :lol:


damn right,but with big fkn guns too


----------



## dtlv

anab0lic said:


> You know if i could sum this forum up in one sentence it would be: The blind leading the blind.


i envy your view of things anab0lic, i really do... life is so easy for people who believe they are superior to everyone else and know everything here is to know without fear of error or misinterpretation. I wish i knew so much that i never doubted my own views and never felt the need to impartially analyze information that contradicted my current understanding.

we are lucky you post here to share your wisdom with us and enlighten the blind folk that we all are.


----------



## Ser

Am as blind as a fkn bat...probably blinder...but even though you take your profile pic in the shadows etc...my guns still out gun yours...and i'm a fkn girl! fook me...i missed how much some people here make me laugh:lol:


----------



## Fatstuff

Lol, poor anabolic, I kinda feel sorry for the guy now


----------



## B.I.G

I stick to minimum 2g per kg of weight and grow quite well.


----------



## Ser

Don't show too much sympathy....MWAHAHAHAAAA!!!!

ps, my guns are awesome, get down and worship them or i'll spank ya! :devil2:


----------



## Fatstuff

Ser said:


> Don't show too much sympathy....MWAHAHAHAAAA!!!!
> 
> ps, my guns are awesome, get down and worship them or i'll spank ya! :devil2:


Can't we do both??


----------



## Joshua

anab0lic said:


> My diet is 70% fat 30% protein I've never felt healthy and never looked better... and gym performance is superior than when I used to eat carbs and/or had a higher protein intake. Once you become fat adapted this true for anyone.
> 
> ....


When you say gym performance, are you talking about an improvement in aerobic or anaerobic training?

Do you believe that you have had increase muscle mass gains on energy matched keto & hi-carb diets?

J


----------



## Ser

Fatstuff said:


> Can't we do both??


Absofukinloutly!



Joshua said:


> When you say gym performance, are you talking about an improvement in aerobic or anaerobic training?
> 
> Do you believe that you have had increase muscle mass gains on energy matched keto & hi-carb diets?
> 
> J


Your presence is required....see post above! I need both an anaerobic and an aerobic workout.....


----------



## dtlv

Joshua said:


> When you say gym performance, are you talking about an improvement in aerobic or anaerobic training?
> 
> Do you believe that you have had increase muscle mass gains on energy matched keto & hi-carb diets?
> 
> J


Far be it for me to speak on behalf of someone so far advanced of any other forum member here, but anab0lic only trains with low volume high frequency training using just a few sets or low-ish reps per bodypart per session... he does his because it's impossible to gain to anything like the same degree using any other style of resistance training so he assures us.

To me, in my ignorance, i wouldn't say his style of training qualifies as a good example to test either the effects of his diet upon either aerobic or anaerobic threshold because his training method doesn't push either to it's limit - volume too low to fully batter the lactate system, and resistance too high to push the aerobic threshold... but then i'm blind and stoopid so just ignore my doubtlessly flawed insight.


----------



## Joshua

Dtlv74 said:


> Far be it for me to speak on behalf of someone so far advanced of any other forum member here, but anab0lic only trains with low volume high frequency training using just a few sets or low-ish reps per bodypart per session... he does his because it's impossible to gain to anything like the same degree using any other style of resistance training so he assures us.
> 
> To me, in my ignorance, i wouldn't say his style of training qualifies as a good example to test either the effects of his diet upon either aerobic or anaerobic threshold because his training method doesn't push either to it's limit - volume too low to fully batter the lactate system, and resistance too high to push the aerobic threshold... but then i'm blind and stoopid so just ignore my doubtlessly flawed insight.


Ahh. Thanks D - got you 

Hope all is well with you.

J


----------



## dtlv

Joshua said:


> Ahh. Thanks D - got you
> 
> Hope all is well with you.
> 
> J


Am good, lots going on right now but things are well... will drop you a PM in the morning when my brain is more awake!

Great to see you back posting btw - have missed you buddy


----------



## big_jim_87

anab0lic said:


> says the guy that's not put forth any proof himself...... 'yawn.'


Lol! Bri has hundreds no thousands of pics in journals all over ukm...

it can be hard to find one were he ain't got his cock out but he is a pic slut! loves it! there will be pics and inept info on this if ti care to look lol

every one here knows Bri... your looking very silly right now bud...


----------



## Yoshi

big_jim_87 said:


> Lol! Bri has hundreds no thousands of pics in journals all over ukm...
> 
> it can be hard to find one were he ain't got his cock out but he is a pic slut! loves it! there will be pics and inept info on this if ti care to look lol
> 
> every one here knows Bri... your looking very silly right now bud...


Whos this Bri guy?


----------



## big_jim_87

Ser said:


> Am as blind as a fkn bat...probably blinder...but even though you take your profile pic in the shadows etc...my guns still out gun yours...and i'm a fkn girl! fook me...i missed how much some people here make me laugh:lol:


wtf are you doing! you come on 1st time in ages and not even comment in my journal... well...


----------



## baggsy1436114680

MacUK said:


> Whos this Bri guy?


weeman i think


----------



## Guest

weeman said:


> maybe mate,but its some cream of the crop cnuts,your a fool to miss the boat like that but hey ho,the guys that made this place what it was back in the day are whats making that place what it is now,18 months and 2nd/3rd most popular board in the country  cant deny facts bub.
> 
> )


is it really? it only has like 2000 members


----------



## dtlv

MacUK said:


> Whos this Bri guy?


Bri posts as weeman!


----------



## big_jim_87

MacUK said:


> Whos this Bri guy?


who?


----------



## Fat

Do you guys agree you need a bigger surplus than 500 on cycle?


----------



## Yoshi

Who's Weeman? And who's that fat ginger in his display picture?

Hate it when guys post on here that don't know what there talking about...

You can only consume 30g protein per 2 hours .... 

Think this Weeman needs to actually post some proof... And stop stealing pictures and posing as someone else on Facebook... Lol


----------



## Guest

Fat said:


> Do you guys agree you need a bigger surplus than 500 on cycle?


i think the gist of this thread is that 500g protein is a good starting point.


----------



## dtlv

MacUK said:


> Who's Weeman? And who's that fat ginger in his display picture?
> 
> Hate it when guys post on here that don't know what there talking about...
> 
> You can only consume 30g protein per 2 hours ....


Hey, not sure who this weeman guy is to be honest... am told his name is Bri, he lifts weights sometimes, and is ginger with a sunlight allergy, but not sure about anything else. :lol:


----------



## Fat

FrankDangerMaus said:


> i think the gist of this thread is that 500g protein is a good starting point.


500g protein = 2000 calories so that doesn't answer my question


----------



## Jacobs64

Great thread, reminded me I need to start eating more protein!


----------



## Yoshi

Jacobs64 said:


> Great thread, reminded me I need to start eating more protein!


Do you know this Weeman?

I think this ser woman is quiet hot as well...


----------



## Malibu

Fat said:


> 500g protein = 2000 calories so that doesn't answer my question


I think he thought you was on about protein not actual total calories mate. But to answer your question, 500+ is usually the limit for natural gaining, to minimise fat gains. On cycle your body will use greater % of your calories to build muscle rather than store it as fat, so a greater surplus would be need and helpful,


----------



## dtlv

Fat said:


> Do you guys agree you need a bigger surplus than 500 on cycle?


Do you *need* a bigger surplus, no.

Might you benefit from a bigger surplus, quite possibly.

Is there any harm in taking more, not short term no provided fluid and mineral intake is adequate (and fibre to help with pooing, lol).

Protein intake is the main big dietary difference between the natty and the juicer IMO, when juicing the catabolic/anabolic balance of muscle proteins is significantly altered and effectively a lot of the natural limiting factors to muscle protein synthesis are raised to allow for much greater amino utilization.

In a natty there is no real advantage from going high on protein beyond a more modest amount, but provided diet is balanced as a whole there shouldn't be any significant negatives from a high protein intake either.


----------



## Team1

Be aswell shouting at the moon

You always get civillians banging on about high fat diets and not needing alot of protein........yawn

time n time again its proven for the vast majority, high protein is the nest way to build muscle.

There is always an exception to the rule. fair enough.


----------



## dtlv

Team1 said:


> Be aswell shouting at the moon
> 
> You always get civillians banging on about high fat diets and not needing alot of protein........yawn
> 
> time n time again its proven for the vast majority, high protein is the nest way to build muscle.
> 
> There is always an exception to the rule. fair enough.


Hey Rab, awesome to see you here buddy, been too long.


----------



## Ben_Dover

Maus, what shake do you use to get 200g of protein for £2?


----------



## RowRow

Before I start I'm not having a go, just curious and raising a few questions is all.



anab0lic said:


> Sorry DTLV74 unless you post an arm pic that has a measurement of 19" plus then your posts don't mean anything around here... it doesn't matter that you may have added 6 inches to your arms since you started (like me) nope, you must post a 19"+ arm pic or anything you say is invalid. :laughs: Surely the fact you gained 6 inches on your arms whilst natty (correct me if i'm wrong) actually shows you have rather good genetics? depenfing on time frame of course. I have only increased my arms by about 5 inches in 4 years whilst also juicing (granted some overtaining and poor diet at some stages).
> 
> BTW do you consider 6 x a week 1.5 hour training sessions low volume with little rest between sets? Because I've taken my volume up there and had zero problems with grwoth/recovery/gym performance.... because my body uses fats to fuel those workouts.... have you not seen the studys where trainees were put through brutal high volume high intensity leg workouts and saw just how little their glycogen stores were depleted by? The number becomes even less when you are fat adapted and the body uses glycogen more efficiently and nobody should be training with the volume that was used in these tests... It actually takes very little volume at all to grow...its intensity that matters...just look at Dorian Yates routine, a guy with worse genetics than Ronnie and gets just as big....and who id put money on being on less drugs too...nuff said. Where the guys in that study natty? probably, The majority of this thread is referncing gear users. The Ronnie and Dorian comparisons seem a bit whack, Dorian had bloody good genetics, incredible work ethic, never missed a meal and used a lot of gear particularly for his time, that is why he was so good, Ronnie and Dorian also ate buckets of protein so does Branch and Jay and phil and Kai, there is a reason the top in bodybuilding some a large amount of protein..because its the best way of gaining muscle. If it is their career I'm gonna hazard a guess they will follow the best method for adding quality muscle.
> 
> I find it utterly absurd that people genuinely have this mentality that anyone that's bigger than them must have more knowledge about bodybuilding/train in a superior way/have some superior dieting techniques.... I like to use my step father as a great example when talking about how genetics will determine how big you are and how big you can potentially get. The man is 50 years old...testosterone levels must be in the gutter.... he doesn't train at all, trained briefly back as a kid but never with any real seriousness.....eats like complete ****, the guy is an absolute wall of a man, arms measure 18 inches chest and lat measurement of 50 inches, insanely broad shoulders, his father is the exactly same at 72 years old! He would make many forum many members here look skinny, despite them maybe having worked out for years with consistency and a good diet.... Now lets put my step father in a gym for a few months... strip off some fat get him lean....get him to do whatever the hell he feels like doing weight training wise, newbie gains he will be at an arm size of 19 inches....in no time.... would you now consider this guy a training and diet guru? Even though you may have started out with a 12 inch arm measurement and it now measures 15 (so you've added 3x what they have) That's exactly what happens when you look to the bigger guy for advice when you don't take into consideration how much better off he could be than you genetically. Personally I will listen to anyone so long as they have evidence to back up what they are claiming, if a skinny PT was saying to folloe the eating approach he used to try and get big I would need to see other guys who had followed his ideas and grown well otherwise I will ignore him. However a large PT who proffers the same advice I will be more inclined to follow him off his own example, it has clearly worked to an extent with him.
> 
> I'm sure weeman will respond to this post now with his picture of him at 15 years old (lol), where he claims hes painfully skinny bad genetics blah blah when its obvious even at 15 fcking years old the guy has the genes to be huge... look how broad his shoulder are and how developed his traps are... - you could take the majority of the forums members on here and completely replicate the lifestyle he undertook to achieve that size and you wont even come anywhere near....not even close....just like he will never achieve the size of someone like Ronnie Coleman or any other pro even if he had the same diet/training and drug intake... because his genetics are inferior. I don't know why people have such a hard time understanding this.... its pretty basic stuff. I'm not really sure how this is relevant to the debate going on so I will move on
> 
> My advice to everyone reading this thread.... experiment, thats exactly what I've done.... youd be a FOOL not to, especially when you consider the current costs of food prices (thats only going to get worse).... oh how i wish i didn't waste all the money i did eating far more protein than my body needs to grow over the years...and how i could have used that money towards many other things i enjoy in life....dont make the same mistakes i did. Try the ludicrous recommendations being stated here then half it, then maybe even half it again if you start out at 500gs! and do the same with your fat and carb ratios. Obviously keep the calories where they need to be to grow or the experiment means nothing, you'll never grow on insufficient calories... don't just blindly follow the advice of some guy that's bigger than you that has zero proof that he couldn't of gotten to the size he is now with the same training/drug intake and far far less protein and carbs. On this I do agree to a certain extent. But I've done high carb, lower protein and fats, high fat, med protein, low carbs, high pro, high carb, low fat. plus other variations. The end results? I grew better and felt best on high pro, high carb and lowish fats. thats what provides the best of results i've had, Hence i agree with the high protein diets.
> 
> Use your head fellas, don't be sheep.


----------



## Guest

RowRow said:


> Before I start I'm not having a go, just curious and raising a few questions is all.


he's not natty, one of his threads about mosquitos mentions he's on 3g test


----------



## Wheyman

anyone doing nthis? pvt me for a discount code


----------



## RowRow

anab0lic said:


> Yup, I actually experimented with taking testosterone levels that high....because unlike many other guys I experiment control variables and look at whats working whats not.. before coming to conclusions. BTW that amount of test never did anything more than make me a horny mofo 24/7.


Okie dokie, you gave ratios of 70% fat 30% protein for your diet, what macros of each does that give you then? if you were to be during a bulking phase.


----------



## dtlv

anab0lic said:


> Sorry DTLV74 unless you post an arm pic that has a measurement of 19" plus then your posts don't mean anything around here... it doesn't matter that you may have added 6 inches to your arms since you started (like me) nope, you must post a 19"+ arm pic or anything you say is invalid. :laughs:
> 
> BTW do you consider 6 x a week 1.5 hour training sessions low volume with little rest between sets? Because I've taken my volume up there and had zero problems with grwoth/recovery/gym performance.... because my body uses fats to fuel those workouts.... have you not seen the studys where trainees were put through brutal high volume high intensity leg workouts and saw just how little their glycogen stores were depleted by? The number becomes even less when you are fat adapted and the body uses glycogen more efficiently and nobody should be training with the volume that was used in these tests... It actually takes very little volume at all to grow...its intensity that matters...just look at Dorian Yates routine, a guy with worse genetics than Ronnie and gets just as big....and who id put money on being on less drugs too...nuff said.
> 
> I find it utterly absurd that people genuinely have this mentality that anyone that's bigger than them must have more knowledge about bodybuilding/train in a superior way/have some superior dieting techniques.... I like to use my step father as a great example when talking about how genetics will determine how big you are and how big you can potentially get. The man is 50 years old...testosterone levels must be in the gutter.... he doesn't train at all, trained briefly back as a kid but never with any real seriousness.....eats like complete ****, the guy is an absolute wall of a man, arms measure 18 inches chest and lat measurement of 50 inches, insanely broad shoulders, his father is the exactly same at 72 years old! He would make many forum many members here look skinny, despite them maybe having worked out for years with consistency and a good diet.... Now lets put my step father in a gym for a few months... strip off some fat get him lean....get him to do whatever the hell he feels like doing weight training wise, newbie gains he will be at an arm size of 19 inches....in no time.... would you now consider this guy a training and diet guru? Even though you may have started out with a 12 inch arm measurement and it now measures 15 (so you've added 3x what they have) That's exactly what happens when you look to the bigger guy for advice when you don't take into consideration how much better off he could be than you genetically.
> 
> I'm sure weeman will respond to this post now with his picture of him at 15 years old (lol), where he claims hes painfully skinny bad genetics blah blah when its obvious even at 15 fcking years old the guy has the genes to be huge... look how broad his shoulder are and how developed his traps are... - you could take the majority of the forums members on here and completely replicate the lifestyle he undertook to achieve that size and you wont even come anywhere near....not even close....just like he will never achieve the size of someone like Ronnie Coleman or any other pro even if he had the same diet/training and drug intake... because his genetics are inferior. I don't know why people have such a hard time understanding this.... its pretty basic stuff.
> 
> My advice to everyone reading this thread.... experiment, thats exactly what I've done.... youd be a FOOL not to, especially when you consider the current costs of food prices (thats only going to get worse).... oh how i wish i didn't waste all the money i did eating far more protein than my body needs to grow over the years...and how i could have used that money towards many other things i enjoy in life....dont make the same mistakes i did. Try the ludicrous recommendations being stated here then half it, then maybe even half it again if you start out at 500gs! and do the same with your fat and carb ratios. Obviously keep the calories where they need to be to grow or the experiment means nothing, you'll never grow on insufficient calories... don't just blindly follow the advice of some guy that's bigger than you that has zero proof that he couldn't of gotten to the size he is now with the same training/drug intake and far far less protein and carbs.
> 
> Use your head fellas, don't be sheep.


Do you realise how self contradictory you are mate?

You say that there is error in following the advice of people just because they are big, yet call me out saying my opinion is invalid unless I have a 19 inch arm.

You have said countless times in other threads that genetic variability doesn't make any difference and all peole respond the same (especially to diet) yet here you write paragraphs about genetic differences.

In respect of training intensity I didn't say your training lacked intensity, I simply pointed out that the form of training you do does not meet either the maximum aerobic or anaerobic thresholds which are the only points at which you can accurately determine the effectiveness of any interaction with diet.

Fat adaption, yes the body does adjust... but not to any superior position of performance, and there are some gene polymorphisms (beta2 adrenergic receptor gene, Peroxisome proliferator-activated receptor-? polymorphims etc) which make it detrimental to performance in some individuals.

Am sure weeman will actually respond in a measured and intelligent way... and wht it's worth I, and other members, don't respect him because he is big but because he has a very good record prepping guys to get on stage, and understands well individual differences and that the best route to development is something that needs to be personalisd.

In respect of experimentation I agree with you, all people should do it... but is also worth suggesting that perhaps you aren't the only person who has experimented in a methodical way and that some of us have done so and found a different optimum for us. Why a different optimum? Maybe because things aren't as simplistic and uniform between individuals as you think.

I agree don't be sheep, but also don't be closed minded enough to be slave to a single set of ideas.


----------



## dtlv

anab0lic said:


> Sorry DTLV74 unless you post an arm pic that has a measurement of 19" plus then your posts don't mean anything around here... it doesn't matter that you may have added 6 inches to your arms since you started (like me) nope, you must post a 19"+ arm pic or anything you say is invalid. :laughs:





Dtlv74 said:


> You say that there is error in following the advice of people just because they are big, yet call me out saying my opinion is invalid unless I have a 19 inch arm.


Just re read your post and missed that you were being facetious with your remark, fair comment and I agree - not having big arms doesn't mean a person can't give good advice.

In respect of a lot of what you say in many threads I can see where you are coming from from your point of view... I just think that you've lost sight a little of the many ways there are up the mountain so to speak.

Sometimes there is more than one way to get from A to B, and they both get you there with a similar amount of ease provided you do whichever option properly, and some times a person is only suited to one route best.

There is danger in assuming otherwise.


----------



## Joshua

Pardon my reposting of this, but incase you missed it.



anab0lic said:


> My diet is 70% fat 30% protein I've never felt healthy and never looked better... and gym performance is superior than when I used to eat carbs and/or had a higher protein intake. Once you become fat adapted this true for anyone.
> 
> ....


When you say gym performance, are you talking about an improvement in aerobic or anaerobic training?

Do you believe that you have had increase muscle mass gains on energy matched keto & hi-carb diets?

J


----------



## SamG

Where's prodiver when you need him? He always liked a good debate on macros.....


----------



## Fatstuff

The biggest contradiction in all of your posts anabolic is the pure fact that I haven't blindly followed anybody, I decided to try a high calorie, high protein diet for myself, I'm not doing it the 'ausbuilt' way or the 'big a' way as im taking in more cals than they suggest, but experimenting for myself!

Now you are telling ppl to experiment, not be a sheep or to blindly follow advice of another yet you feel the need to step into my journal and rather than praise me for going my own path and not being a sheep, you decide to pick holes in it and tell me what YOU think i should do. Now why cant everybody follow the big guys advice, but I am expected to follow the little guys advice rather than continue my own experiment! Is your advice superior to everybody else's - it seems u feel that way, very hypocritical and arrogant again.


----------



## RowRow

anab0lic said:


> 1# Nope, I have terrible genetics in terms of how much absolute size I can attain, that doesnt mean through proper training and diet I cant significantly improve upon where I started... and that's what Ive done. You cant just keep adding to that though, everyone hits their limit eventually and if you start of way smaller, you will hit a limit that may even be another guys starting point. At age 19 i took my measurements before starting some 'gain 32lbs of pure muscle in 12 weeks' program I got suckered into buying back when I was new to the game and naive, like we all are when we first start with this stuff..... my arms were 11 inches (flexed), chest/lat measurement of 34 inches, shoulders i don't recall but 12 year old females were broader... and this was in my late teens/early 20's not at 14 years old where I hadn't finished growing naturally yet.
> 
> #2 Yes Dorian has great genetics, far better than anyone ehere, but Ronnie had better.... Dorian being able to get to a similar size is a testament to how effective low volume high intesnity training is when performed correctly. Yates has also come out and quite openly talked about his gear use and I do believe he was using a lot less than what others were at the time and certainly less than whats being used today.... more proof of how good his training system was.
> 
> #3 But how do you know that large PT isnt someone like my stepfather? You may have gained tripple what that pt has, he just has far better genetics than you.
> 
> #4 What did a typical day of eating look like when you did high fat mod protein?


I did have an excel document listing it but its hiding somwhere

It was 8 meals a day though, I avoided fats first thing, pre workout and post workout, to prevent any blunting of insulin-like effects, I used Bcaas to trigger these spikes.

It was just under 6000 cals a day at 1.5 per lb I weighed protein, so about 360g a day. I was consuming iirc 500g fat a day, mostly from extra virgin olive oil, avocados, egg yolks, and seeds.

I felt very lethargic most of the time and followed this diet for about 15 weeks, its was me trying a ckd bulk. I gained weight but incredibly slowly and all together i think i looked worse than when i bulked with higher carbs.


----------



## big_jim_87

FrankDangerMaus said:


> i think the gist of this thread is that 500g protein is a good starting point.


Im not sure this was the jist...

post a pic, give info on bw, aas and diet history... we can give you a much better idea with this info...


----------



## Fatstuff

big_jim_87 said:


> Im not sure this was the jist...
> 
> post a pic, give info on bw, aas and diet history... we can give you a much better idea with this info...


I think he was half takin the p1ss with that post lol


----------



## big_jim_87

anab0lic said:


> 1
> 
> Sorry DTLV74 unless you post an arm pic that has a measurement of 19" plus then your posts don't mean anything around here... it doesn't matter that you may have added 6 inches to your arms since you started (like me) nope, you must post a 19"+ arm pic or anything you say is invalid. :laughs:
> 
> 2
> 
> BTW do you consider 6 x a week 1.5 hour training sessions low volume with little rest between sets? Because I've taken my volume up there and had zero problems with grwoth/recovery/gym performance.... because my body uses fats to fuel those workouts.... have you not seen the studys where trainees were put through brutal high volume high intensity leg workouts and saw just how little their glycogen stores were depleted by? The number becomes even less when you are fat adapted and the body uses glycogen more efficiently and nobody should be training with the volume that was used in these tests... It actually takes very little volume at all to grow...its intensity that matters...just look at Dorian Yates routine, a guy with worse genetics than Ronnie and gets just as big....and who id put money on being on less drugs too...nuff said.
> 
> 3
> 
> I find it utterly absurd that people genuinely have this mentality that anyone that's bigger than them must have more knowledge about bodybuilding/train in a superior way/have some superior dieting techniques.... I like to use my step father as a great example when talking about how genetics will determine how big you are and how big you can potentially get. The man is 50 years old...testosterone levels must be in the gutter.... he doesn't train at all, trained briefly back as a kid but never with any real seriousness.....eats like complete ****, the guy is an absolute wall of a man, arms measure 18 inches chest and lat measurement of 50 inches, insanely broad shoulders, his father is the exactly same at 72 years old! He would make many forum many members here look skinny, despite them maybe having worked out for years with consistency and a good diet.... Now lets put my step father in a gym for a few months... strip off some fat get him lean....get him to do whatever the hell he feels like doing weight training wise, newbie gains he will be at an arm size of 19 inches....in no time.... would you now consider this guy a training and diet guru? Even though you may have started out with a 12 inch arm measurement and it now measures 15 (so you've added 3x what they have) That's exactly what happens when you look to the bigger guy for advice when you don't take into consideration how much better off he could be than you genetically.
> 
> I'm sure weeman will respond to this post now with his picture of him at 15 years old (lol), where he claims hes painfully skinny bad genetics blah blah when its obvious even at 15 fcking years old the guy has the genes to be huge... look how broad his shoulder are and how developed his traps are... - you could take the majority of the forums members on here and completely replicate the lifestyle he undertook to achieve that size and you wont even come anywhere near....not even close....just like he will never achieve the size of someone like Ronnie Coleman or any other pro even if he had the same diet/training and drug intake... because his genetics are inferior. I don't know why people have such a hard time understanding this.... its pretty basic stuff.
> 
> My advice to everyone reading this thread.... experiment, thats exactly what I've done.... youd be a FOOL not to, especially when you consider the current costs of food prices (thats only going to get worse).... oh how i wish i didn't waste all the money i did eating far more protein than my body needs to grow over the years...and how i could have used that money towards many other things i enjoy in life....dont make the same mistakes i did. Try the ludicrous recommendations being stated here then half it, then maybe even half it again if you start out at 500gs! and do the same with your fat and carb ratios. Obviously keep the calories where they need to be to grow or the experiment means nothing, you'll never grow on insufficient calories... don't just blindly follow the advice of some guy that's bigger than you that has zero proof that he couldn't of gotten to the size he is now with the same training/drug intake and far far less protein and carbs.
> 
> 4
> 
> Use your head fellas, don't be sheep.


1

well i have 19.25" guns... when I started training prob 10" lol i was real small and skinny... but lean.

so since I started training iv added 9.25" to my arms... I just turned 25 on the 4th of this month so in this game i still pretty much a baby... by the time im 28 if I dnt have 21" guns ill cut em off!

also at 5.6" tall my 19.25" arms need to be as developed as a 5.10" guys 20" plus as all relative (taller guy will have bigger joints and arm circumference any way)

its not about your physique its that you are talking shyt about diet...

2

LOL! stop posting mate pls you are making your self look a right cock lol. 1st off Ron git his pro card at a drug tested show (I think... he was natty any how, as the old tail goes)

2nd Yates was nite as big as Ron! no one is, was and more then likely ever will be! Ron is the best all time bber end of! Yates was awesome but not a stitch on Ron! have you ever seen Yates train? high volume also lol just massive intensity for one working set but each work out about 20sets lol

3

nothing to do with how you look its what you say... its just wrong mate end of.

4

yea use your head... dnt read this nobs posts.


----------



## hackskii

Ok, a snip from John Berardi's stuff.

I think if one has positive nitrogen balance, you dont need more protein, you already are positive in nitrogen balance, more wont equate to being better, its not like money FFS.

*Do Athletes Need More Protein?*

While it's obvious that the protein need question is an academic one, I want to address it here because the answer may shock you.

Before we talk about specific numbers, I need to give you a little background on how to measure protein needs. Measuring protein needs in different populations is usually accomplished by the nitrogen balance technique. This technique involves measuring the amount of nitrogen ingested (in protein sources), as well as measuring or estimating the amount of nitrogen excreted in the urine, sweat, and feces.

If the amount of nitrogen going into the body is greater than the amount of nitrogen leaving the body, it's said that the person is in positive nitrogen status. It's then assumed that the surplus protein retained in the body has been used to build up body tissues.

If the amount of nitrogen coming in is equivalent to the nitrogen going out, it's said that the person is in nitrogen balance. It's then assumed that the person is eating just enough protein to prevent deficiency but not enough to build additional tissue.

If the amount of nitrogen going into the body is less than the amount of nitrogen leaving the body, it's said that the person is in negative nitrogen status. It's then assumed that the person is protein deficient and in time they will begin to break down muscle tissue and, eventually, organ mass to provide for their basic amino-acid needs.

It's therefore important to recognize that most protein-need studies look for the protein intakes at which people are in nitrogen balance, or just enough to prevent them from being deficient.

From these nitrogen-balance experiments, it's been recommended that untrained individuals consume 0.8g of protein per kg of body mass to meet their need. Again, this is the amount of protein needed to keep them in balance while staving off the dreaded negative protein status (which can lead to protein malnutrition, muscle and organ wasting, and eventual death).

With respect to athletic needs, the work of Lemon, Tarnopolsky and colleagues has given some indication that athletes do require more protein (Lemon et al 1981, Tarnopolsky et al 1988, Tarmonpolsky et al 1992, Lemon et al 1997). This classic research indicates that during intensive training, strength and endurance athletes may need somewhere between 1.4 - 2.0 g of protein per kg of body mass to maintain nitrogen balance.

But what about all the athletes and weightlifters out there that consume fewer protein grams than the recommended 1.4 - 2.0 g of protein per kg of body mass? If they really needed those 1.4 - 2.0g/kg, wouldn't they be wasting away and dying? Since they're not, they must not need all that protein. What's the deal?

As Rennie and colleagues have pointed out, there are several problems when trying to apply the Lemon and Tarnoposky data to habitual exercisers. First, the studies by Lemon and Tarnopolsky were done on athletes undergoing new training programs. While they were recreationally active before the study began, the training stimulus (strength training in some studies, endurance training in others) was novel, most likely causing a short-term increase in protein need, an increase that would not persist in the long-term (Rennie et al 1999, 2000). In other words, Rennie argues that while a new exercise program (whether strength or endurance exercise) may increase protein need acutely, chronic exercise probably doesn't increase protein need at all.

Now before you start hatin' on Rennie, it's important to understand that this guy is a protein research legend. Type his name into Medline and you'll get a couple hundred protein-related research publications. Beyond his excellent reputation, his ideas do have both theoretical and research support. Specifically, the research of Butterfield and Calloway suggests that athletes may actually need less protein due to an increase in protein efficiency that may accompany chronic training (Butterfield and Calloway 1984). What this means is that athletes may actually get more efficient in their protein use (i.e. increased anabolic efficiency) and therefore may need less protein than the 0.8g/kg required for sedentary individuals!

Is this Rennie guy crazy? Probably not! Then why do his comments fly in the face of what athletes and weightlifters know; namely that a higher-protein diet helps pack on muscle mass and helps promote a favorable body composition? Well, actually, they don't! If you think so, you haven't taken a lesson from our earlier discussion. Namely, you're still confusing need with optimization.

An athlete may need less protein to stay alive but he/she should consume more protein to optimize performance and body composition. Therefore, when I'm asked how much protein an athlete needs, my best response is that it doesn't matter! Asking "How much protein does an athlete need?" is much like asking the question "How much does a student need to study for an exam?" Since a student only needs to pass their exam to remain a student, the proper answer would be "however much it takes to score a 60%." However, very few students want to earn only a 60%. Therefore the best question would be "How much does a student need to study to get an A on their exam?"


----------



## Guest

big_jim_87 said:


> Im not sure this was the jist...
> 
> post a pic, give info on bw, aas and diet history... we can give you a much better idea with this info...


not serious lol.

i'm going with 400g for now


----------



## hackskii

hey, how can I listen to weemans podcast?

I want it now, I want my bro winger to listen to it too.

Can I listen to ser too? :wub:


----------



## hackskii

FrankDangerMaus said:


> not serious lol.
> 
> i'm going with 400g for now


That is alot of testosterone a week mate. :lol:


----------



## Fatstuff

hackskii said:


> That is alot of testosterone a week mate. :lol:


Aus's next cycle lol


----------



## RowRow

Fatstuff said:


> Aus's next cycle lol


1000ml of a test 500 hahaha, not enough space in Ronnie's body for that! Haha.


----------



## big_jim_87

hackskii said:


> Ok, a snip from John Berardi's stuff.
> 
> I think if one has positive nitrogen balance, you dont need more protein, you already are positive in nitrogen balance, more wont equate to being better, its not like money FFS.
> 
> *Do Athletes Need More Protein?*
> 
> While it's obvious that the protein need question is an academic one, I want to address it here because the answer may shock you.
> 
> Before we talk about specific numbers, I need to give you a little background on how to measure protein needs. Measuring protein needs in different populations is usually accomplished by the nitrogen balance technique. This technique involves measuring the amount of nitrogen ingested (in protein sources), as well as measuring or estimating the amount of nitrogen excreted in the urine, sweat, and feces.
> 
> If the amount of nitrogen going into the body is greater than the amount of nitrogen leaving the body, it's said that the person is in positive nitrogen status. It's then assumed that the surplus protein retained in the body has been used to build up body tissues.
> 
> If the amount of nitrogen coming in is equivalent to the nitrogen going out, it's said that the person is in nitrogen balance. It's then assumed that the person is eating just enough protein to prevent deficiency but not enough to build additional tissue.
> 
> If the amount of nitrogen going into the body is less than the amount of nitrogen leaving the body, it's said that the person is in negative nitrogen status. It's then assumed that the person is protein deficient and in time they will begin to break down muscle tissue and, eventually, organ mass to provide for their basic amino-acid needs.
> 
> It's therefore important to recognize that most protein-need studies look for the protein intakes at which people are in nitrogen balance, or just enough to prevent them from being deficient.
> 
> From these nitrogen-balance experiments, it's been recommended that untrained individuals consume 0.8g of protein per kg of body mass to meet their need. Again, this is the amount of protein needed to keep them in balance while staving off the dreaded negative protein status (which can lead to protein malnutrition, muscle and organ wasting, and eventual death).
> 
> With respect to athletic needs, the work of Lemon, Tarnopolsky and colleagues has given some indication that athletes do require more protein (Lemon et al 1981, Tarnopolsky et al 1988, Tarmonpolsky et al 1992, Lemon et al 1997). This classic research indicates that during intensive training, strength and endurance athletes may need somewhere between 1.4 - 2.0 g of protein per kg of body mass to maintain nitrogen balance.
> 
> But what about all the athletes and weightlifters out there that consume fewer protein grams than the recommended 1.4 - 2.0 g of protein per kg of body mass? If they really needed those 1.4 - 2.0g/kg, wouldn't they be wasting away and dying? Since they're not, they must not need all that protein. What's the deal?
> 
> As Rennie and colleagues have pointed out, there are several problems when trying to apply the Lemon and Tarnoposky data to habitual exercisers. First, the studies by Lemon and Tarnopolsky were done on athletes undergoing new training programs. While they were recreationally active before the study began, the training stimulus (strength training in some studies, endurance training in others) was novel, most likely causing a short-term increase in protein need, an increase that would not persist in the long-term (Rennie et al 1999, 2000). In other words, Rennie argues that while a new exercise program (whether strength or endurance exercise) may increase protein need acutely, chronic exercise probably doesn't increase protein need at all.
> 
> Now before you start hatin' on Rennie, it's important to understand that this guy is a protein research legend. Type his name into Medline and you'll get a couple hundred protein-related research publications. Beyond his excellent reputation, his ideas do have both theoretical and research support. Specifically, the research of Butterfield and Calloway suggests that athletes may actually need less protein due to an increase in protein efficiency that may accompany chronic training (Butterfield and Calloway 1984). What this means is that athletes may actually get more efficient in their protein use (i.e. increased anabolic efficiency) and therefore may need less protein than the 0.8g/kg required for sedentary individuals!
> 
> Is this Rennie guy crazy? Probably not! Then why do his comments fly in the face of what athletes and weightlifters know; namely that a higher-protein diet helps pack on muscle mass and helps promote a favorable body composition? Well, actually, they don't! If you think so, you haven't taken a lesson from our earlier discussion. Namely, you're still confusing need with optimization.
> 
> An athlete may need less protein to stay alive but he/she should consume more protein to optimize performance and body composition. Therefore, when I'm asked how much protein an athlete needs, my best response is that it doesn't matter! Asking "How much protein does an athlete need?" is much like asking the question "How much does a student need to study for an exam?" Since a student only needs to pass their exam to remain a student, the proper answer would be "however much it takes to score a 60%." However, very few students want to earn only a 60%. Therefore the best question would be "How much does a student need to study to get an A on their exam?"


mother fvcker!

in nite reading this much! give ne the jist you old codger!


----------



## hackskii

big_jim_87 said:


> mother fvcker!
> 
> in nite reading this much! give ne the jist you old codger!


Of course I could have, but I wanted you to read that beings how you like to read and all. :lol:

To be fair I should show the positives with more protein, but I did say I was playing devils advocate so I will leave that bit out:lol:


----------



## Mingster

Far too much to catch up on to read in detail. You guys need jobs lol....

Hacksii. I already eat 300 carbs mate, any more and I'll stop cutting and start bulking. I have to eat 500g protein to make up my macros. 541 as it happens Anyway I like eating protein - it tastes nice.

Anabolic. I'm 51 next month ffs. If you think I haven't tried every diet and training combination possible many times over you're sadly mistaken. Your methods may well work for you but, through the experimentation you yourself advise, I've found that your methods do nothing for me.

I've built a strong, solid physique over the years and now I'm trying to hone it for the first time. For cutting purposes I've upped the protein and it's working at the moment. If it stops working I'll try something else, but I'm very, very pleased with the results at this moment in time regardless of scientific or anecdotal evidence to the contrary


----------



## hackskii

Mingster said:


> Far too much to catch up on to read in detail. You guys need jobs lol....
> 
> Hacksii. I already eat 300 carbs mate, any more and I'll stop cutting and start bulking. I have to eat 500g protein to make up my macros. 541 as it happens Anyway I like eating protein - it tastes nice.
> 
> Anabolic. I'm 51 next month ffs. If you think I haven't tried every diet and training combination possible many times over you're sadly mistaken. Your methods may well work for you but, through the experimentation you yourself advise, I've found that your methods do nothing for me.
> 
> I've built a strong, solid physique over the years and now I'm trying to hone it for the first time. For cutting purposes I've upped the protein and it's working at the moment. If it stops working I'll try something else, but I'm very, very pleased with the results at this moment in time regardless of scientific or anecdotal evidence to the contrary


I am at work, you don't think I have this much time at home do you?

I re-read your post, then I realized you were dieting:lol:


----------



## TAFFY

havent read all posts on this cant be bothered but if you aim for 6-8 solid meals with 40g protein average,tha give you bout 300g protein then with little things like cottage cheese and protein shake or bar so on easily get over 400g of protein if you wan hit 500g just

aim for 50g per meal!!


----------



## Guest

TAFFY said:


> havent read all posts on this cant be bothered but if you aim for 6-8 solid meals with 40g protein average,tha give you bout 300g protein then with little things like cottage cheese and protein shake or bar so on easily get over 400g of protein if you wan hit 500g just
> 
> aim for 50g per meal!!


i aim for 100 per meal


----------



## Fatstuff

I just cook my meat - however much is there, weigh it and make up my shortfalls with shakes


----------



## BB_999

I've added a 40g shake to four of my six meals. Currently hitting around 400g.


----------



## TAFFY

FrankDangerMaus said:


> i aim for 100 per meal


wa 100g per meal for 6-8 meals a day yeh rite!!


----------



## Yoshi

TAFFY said:


> wa 100g per meal for 6-8 meals a day yeh rite!!


Not hard mate... Chicken fillet protein shake ..


----------



## Fatstuff

TAFFY said:


> wa 100g per meal for 6-8 meals a day yeh rite!!


He clearly doesnt eat 6-8 meals


----------



## Yoshi

I tend to have 3-4 solid meals 3-4 shakes mate


----------



## TAFFY

Fatstuff said:


> He clearly doesnt eat 6-8 meals


Well said f/s!!


----------



## TAFFY

MacUK said:


> Not hard mate... Chicken fillet protein shake ..


a chicken fillet and shake would only come to bout 70g protein anyway also who would wan 6-8 shakes a day??

shakes are a supplement cant rely and shakes continually to get your protein in food what puts size on or gets you lean when dieting

not shakes,what you put into your body what you get out!!


----------



## Fatstuff

TAFFY said:


> Well said f/s!!


Lol I mean, he clearly has 4 or 5 meals a day, hence why he's aiming higher per meal


----------



## Yoshi

TAFFY said:


> a chicken fillet and shake would only come to bout 70g protein anyway also who would wan 6-8 shakes a day??
> 
> shakes are a supplement cant rely and shakes continually to get your protein in food what puts size on or gets you lean when dieting
> 
> not shakes,what you put into your body what you get out!!


Bullsh1t protein in protein Weeman has a similar diet, you going to question him?

Protein is protein but just having shakes a day gets boring plus in the long run you will gain better off solid foods but having said that will still grow fine on pro shake diet


----------



## TAFFY

MacUK said:


> Bullsh1t protein in protein Weeman has a similar diet, you going to question him?
> 
> Protein is protein but just having shakes a day gets boring plus in the long run you will gain better off solid foods but having said that will still grow fine on pro shake diet


no its not bull mate if you wan do tha sort diet tha up to you protein shake is a SUPPLEMENT!!!!!


----------



## Yoshi

TAFFY said:


> no its not bull mate if you wan do tha sort diet tha up to you protein shake is a SUPPLEMENT!!!!!


It can be a meal replacement....

You going to tell me you can only consume 30g protein every couple of hours... Power neg is near if you do lol

My prep coach mxd has also advised me nothing wrong with shake diet just boring as hell...

Quote of the day:

" protein shakes are a supplement "

"Well tren is designed for people with muscle wasting away diseases but we don't use tren for that..."


----------



## weeman

FrankDangerMaus said:


> is it really? it only has like 2000 members


amount of members on a forum is largely irrelevant,its traffic that matters more,and quality of active members,this place has what maybe 50,000 members? prob lucky if 100+ actual regular posting members? see what i mean?



anab0lic said:


> Sorry DTLV74 unless you post an arm pic that has a measurement of 19" plus then your posts don't mean anything around here... it doesn't matter that you may have added 6 inches to your arms since you started (like me) nope, you must post a 19"+ arm pic or anything you say is invalid. :laughs:
> 
> BTW do you consider 6 x a week 1.5 hour training sessions low volume with little rest between sets? Because I've taken my volume up there and had zero problems with grwoth/recovery/gym performance.... because my body uses fats to fuel those workouts.... have you not seen the studys where trainees were put through brutal high volume high intensity leg workouts and saw just how little their glycogen stores were depleted by? The number becomes even less when you are fat adapted and the body uses glycogen more efficiently and nobody should be training with the volume that was used in these tests... It actually takes very little volume at all to grow...its intensity that matters...just look at Dorian Yates routine, a guy with worse genetics than Ronnie and gets just as big....and who id put money on being on less drugs too...nuff said.
> 
> I find it utterly absurd that people genuinely have this mentality that anyone that's bigger than them must have more knowledge about bodybuilding/train in a superior way/have some superior dieting techniques.... I like to use my step father as a great example when talking about how genetics will determine how big you are and how big you can potentially get. The man is 50 years old...testosterone levels must be in the gutter.... he doesn't train at all, trained briefly back as a kid but never with any real seriousness.....eats like complete ****, the guy is an absolute wall of a man, arms measure 18 inches chest and lat measurement of 50 inches, insanely broad shoulders, his father is the exactly same at 72 years old! He would make many forum many members here look skinny, despite them maybe having worked out for years with consistency and a good diet.... Now lets put my step father in a gym for a few months... strip off some fat get him lean....get him to do whatever the hell he feels like doing weight training wise, newbie gains he will be at an arm size of 19 inches....in no time.... would you now consider this guy a training and diet guru? Even though you may have started out with a 12 inch arm measurement and it now measures 15 (so you've added 3x what they have) That's exactly what happens when you look to the bigger guy for advice when you don't take into consideration how much better off he could be than you genetically.
> 
> I'm sure weeman will respond to this post now with his picture of him at 15 years old (lol), where he claims hes painfully skinny bad genetics blah blah when its obvious even at 15 fcking years old the guy has the genes to be huge... look how broad his shoulder are and how developed his traps are... - you could take the majority of the forums members on here and completely replicate the lifestyle he undertook to achieve that size and you wont even come anywhere near....not even close....just like he will never achieve the size of someone like Ronnie Coleman or any other pro even if he had the same diet/training and drug intake... because his genetics are inferior. I don't know why people have such a hard time understanding this.... its pretty basic stuff.
> 
> My advice to everyone reading this thread.... experiment, thats exactly what I've done.... youd be a FOOL not to, especially when you consider the current costs of food prices (thats only going to get worse).... oh how i wish i didn't waste all the money i did eating far more protein than my body needs to grow over the years...and how i could have used that money towards many other things i enjoy in life....dont make the same mistakes i did. Try the ludicrous recommendations being stated here then half it, then maybe even half it again if you start out at 500gs! and do the same with your fat and carb ratios. Obviously keep the calories where they need to be to grow or the experiment means nothing, you'll never grow on insufficient calories... don't just blindly follow the advice of some guy that's bigger than you that has zero proof that he couldn't of gotten to the size he is now with the same training/drug intake and far far less protein and carbs.
> 
> Use your head fellas, don't be sheep.


no mate its got nothing to do with having big guns that gets you taken seriously,its more to do with substance and backing up what is said,as many have already chimed in on my behalf i've built up a not too shabby rep of getting people into top shape for shows over the years,so it may well come as a shock to you that not only do i get to experiment with various methods of diet etc on myself,but also with many many others that come to me for my help,oddly enough,can you get your head round that bit btw?

I hate to burst your bubble also but i also started off training (at 15) with an 11'' arm measurement too,i have a small frame,i dont have very wide clavicles (not narrow but nor am i super wide) my joints are also small,here is a pic of me after training for maybe 4 years at age 19,think if i had these super genetics you think i seem to have i would have been a lot more developed no?especially considering i started taking gear at 18 :lol:










oh also to add to it,the almost infamous pic of me at age 30 (7 years ago),yeah the genetics are just hanging out of me arent they?......










sadly mate the truth of the fact is its years of consistent graft that has gotten me the physique i have,i am no genetic superior,neither am i inferior but i am defo at the lower end of the genetically gifted scale lol to me,your own personal limiting factor limiting your gains is your own mind


----------



## Yoshi

weeman said:


> amount of members on a forum is largely irrelevant,its traffic that matters more,and quality of active members,this place has what maybe 50,000 members? prob lucky if 100+ actual regular posting members? see what i mean?
> 
> no mate its got nothing to do with having big guns that gets you taken seriously,its more to do with substance and backing up what is said,as many have already chimed in on my behalf i've built up a not too shabby rep of getting people into top shape for shows over the years,so it may well come as a shock to you that not only do i get to experiment with various methods of diet etc on myself,but also with many many others that come to me for my help,oddly enough,can you get your head round that bit btw?
> 
> I hate to burst your bubble also but i also started off training (at 15) with an 11'' arm measurement too,i have a small frame,i dont have very wide clavicles (not narrow but nor am i super wide) my joints are also small,here is a pic of me after training for maybe 4 years at age 19,think if i had these super genetics you think i seem to have i would have been a lot more developed no?especially considering i started taking gear at 18 :lol:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> oh also to add to it,the almost infamous pic of me at age 30 (7 years ago),yeah the genetics are just hanging out of me arent they?......
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sadly mate the truth of the fact is its years of consistent graft that has gotten me the physique i have,i am no genetic superior,neither am i inferior but i am defo at the lower end of the genetically gifted scale lol to me,your own personal limiting factor limiting your gains is your own mind


... Your still a fat ginger and god hates you... That is all

Who the fck this is Weeman guy?

And this ser woman keeps sending me naked pictures...

Lol


----------



## n1ckage

MacUK said:


> It can be a meal replacement....
> 
> You going to tell me you can only consume 30g protein every couple of hours... Power neg is near if you do lol
> 
> My prep coach mxd has also advised me nothing wrong with shake diet just boring as hell...
> 
> Quote of the day:
> 
> " protein shakes are a supplement "
> 
> "Well tren is designed for people with muscle wasting away diseases but we don't use tren for that..."


lol Tren was designed for cows so that they dont lose much mass when being transported and also so they use their food more efficiently


----------



## Yoshi

n1ckage said:


> lol Tren was designed for cows so that they dont lose much mass when being transported and also so they use their food more efficiently


Yeah well Bri is ginger...

I couldn't remember so what lol the point is still valid you smart a$$ lol


----------



## weeman

TAFFY said:


> a chicken fillet and shake would only come to bout 70g protein anyway also who would wan 6-8 shakes a day??
> 
> shakes are a supplement cant rely and shakes continually to get your protein in food what puts size on or gets you lean when dieting
> 
> not shakes,what you put into your body what you get out!!


depends on the size of the chicken fillet,ones i get are almost 250g raw,which would give you basically 50g prot and a shake on that could mean anything but lets call that 50g too,voila 100g prot,i actually eat this way too as cant be fuked trying to get in multiple meals,i am too busy for that,it just gets in the way,only time i step to multiple meals is during prep when hunger bites hard.

Using shakes for 50% of intake will not harm gains at all,end of the day the numbers are coming in,my diet is 50/50 year round,fuk even during prep its that way till about 8 weeks out and hunger bites,i know plenty monsters who get even more than 50% of their macros from shakes,its another net born lore for guys to proclaim how hardcore they are for not using shakes imo,nothing wrong with it at all.

That being said when boiling things down to the nitty gritty as prep goes on a physique that has more food in it will generally be a harder looking physique,for if no other reason than your body has to work harder to digest the food,therefor burning more calories.


----------



## TAFFY

MacUK said:


> It can be a meal replacement....
> 
> You going to tell me you can only consume 30g protein every couple of hours... Power neg is near if you do lol
> 
> My prep coach mxd has also advised me nothing wrong with shake diet just boring as hell...
> 
> Quote of the day:
> 
> " protein shakes are a supplement "
> 
> "Well tren is designed for people with muscle wasting away diseases but we don't use tren for that..."


mate you wan chill a bit,like i said you happy doing that sort diet go for it,no i didnt say you can only consume 30g of protein in one sitting,so your wrong there,i prefer to get most of my protein from food,tha all i trying to say,the bloke whos runs my gym done my diet for me when i competed and he bin competing for long time and i only had shake post wrk out,each entitled to there own opinion mate so chill and have some carbs


----------



## Yoshi

weeman said:


> depends on the size of the chicken fillet,ones i get are almost 250g raw,which would give you basically 50g prot and a shake on that could mean anything but lets call that 50g too,voila 100g prot,i actually eat this way too as cant be fuked trying to get in multiple meals,i am too busy for that,it just gets in the way,only time i step to multiple meals is during prep when hunger bites hard.
> 
> Using shakes for 50% of intake will not harm gains at all,end of the day the numbers are coming in,my diet is 50/50 year round,fuk even during prep its that way till about 8 weeks out and hunger bites,i know plenty monsters who get even more than 50% of their macros from shakes,its another net born lore for guys to proclaim how hardcore they are for not using shakes imo,nothing wrong with it at all.
> 
> That being said when boiling things down to the nitty gritty as prep goes on a physique that has more food in it will generally be a harder looking physique,for if no other reason than your body has to work harder to digest the food,therefor burning more calories.


Argh man why do your posts always sound better then mine... That just sh1t all over mine lol

I knew what I meant! Only because you told me haha


----------



## n1ckage

MacUK said:


> Yeah well Bri is ginger...
> 
> I couldn't remember so what lol the point is still valid you smart a$$ lol


Hey man i just thought it might come in handy if you ever needed to transport a lot of cows at once with limited food


----------



## Yoshi

TAFFY said:


> mate you wan chill a bit,like i said you happy doing that sort diet go for it,no i didnt say you can only consume 30g of protein in one sitting,so your wrong there,i prefer to get most of my protein from food,tha all i trying to say,the bloke whos runs my gym done my diet for me when i competed and he bin competing for long time and i only had shake post wrk out,each entitled to there own opinion mate so chill and have some carbs


I am chilled lol

The protein per hour was joke a lot of people think that theory on here like fat stuff... He only has 1 big mac every 2 hours...


----------



## Yoshi

n1ckage said:


> Hey man i just thought it might come in handy if you ever needed to transport a lot of cows at once with limited food


Could be in next weeks pub quiz...

Lol


----------



## TAFFY

weeman said:


> depends on the size of the chicken fillet,ones i get are almost 250g raw,which would give you basically 50g prot and a shake on that could mean anything but lets call that 50g too,voila 100g prot,i actually eat this way too as cant be fuked trying to get in multiple meals,i am too busy for that,it just gets in the way,only time i step to multiple meals is during prep when hunger bites hard.
> 
> Using shakes for 50% of intake will not harm gains at all,end of the day the numbers are coming in,my diet is 50/50 year round,fuk even during prep its that way till about 8 weeks out and hunger bites,i know plenty monsters who get even more than 50% of their macros from shakes,its another net born lore for guys to proclaim how hardcore they are for not using shakes imo,nothing wrong with it at all.
> 
> That being said when boiling things down to the nitty gritty as prep goes on a physique that has more food in it will generally be a harder looking physique,for if no other reason than your body has to work harder to digest the food,therefor burning more calories.


fair point w/m like i just said the bloke who runs my gym does it diff he has hardly any shakes when he dieted this year he stopped shakes weeks out,like you said he was real dry and damn good condition,he 50 and won his class and overall again,so i tend listen to him he is bit old school!!


----------



## sniper83

TAFFY said:


> mate you wan chill a bit,like i said you happy doing that sort diet go for it,no i didnt say you can only consume 30g of protein in one sitting,so your wrong there,i prefer to get most of my protein from food,tha all i trying to say,the bloke whos runs my gym done my diet for me when i competed and he bin competing for long time and i only had shake post wrk out,each entitled to there own opinion mate so chill and have some carbs


this is the only shake i have a day now.


----------



## TAFFY

MacUK said:


> I am chilled lol
> 
> The protein per hour was joke a lot of people think that theory on here like fat stuff... He only has 1 big mac every 2 hours...


good hope your diet/show goes well!!


----------



## weeman

TAFFY said:


> fair point w/m like i just said the bloke who runs my gym does it diff he has hardly any shakes when he dieted this year he stopped shakes weeks out,like you said he was real dry and damn good condition,he 50 and won his class and overall again,so i tend listen to him he is bit old school!!


I do advocate on prep for guys to get as much of their intake in from solid as soon as they can for those reasons mate,defo a believer there,but offseason theres no real reason to be as anal with it,think you'll agree its hard enough living the bbing lifestyle without having to juggle 6-8 meals a day year in year out along with families,jobs etc etc,shakes are convenient and still carry you towards your muscle gaining goals 

As an aside from that,is no one going to applaude me on my rather deft pic whoring i just did on the page before?even in the middle of a debate there is always a way to whore pics of ones self :lol: :lol:


----------



## Fatstuff

MacUK said:


> I am chilled lol
> 
> The protein per hour was joke a lot of people think that theory on here like fat stuff... He only has 1 big mac every 2 hours...


And mac employs a new 'guru' every week rather than go the gym


----------



## Fatstuff

I think u still look sh1t personally weeman :lol:


----------



## hackskii

I can see problems with a shake diet myself.


----------



## Yoshi

weeman said:


> I do advocate on prep for guys to get as much of their intake in from solid as soon as they can for those reasons mate,defo a believer there,but offseason theres no real reason to be as anal with it,think you'll agree its hard enough living the bbing lifestyle without having to juggle 6-8 meals a day year in year out along with families,jobs etc etc,shakes are convenient and still carry you towards your muscle gaining goals
> 
> As an aside from that,is no one going to applaude me on my rather deft pic whoring i just did on the page before?even in the middle of a debate there is always a way to whore pics of ones self :lol: :lol:


No one likes you mate, no one wants to see ginger people


----------



## Yoshi

Fatstuff said:


> And mac employs a new 'guru' every week rather than go the gym


Everyone knows if your on 3gram plus aas you don't need to go to gym mate... That's what my supplier told me... Lol!


----------



## Yoshi

hackskii said:


> I can see problems with a shake diet myself.


Don't you start Scott i can't be reading your posts(1000 word essays) tonight lol


----------



## hackskii

MacUK said:


> Don't you start Scott i can't be reading your posts(1000 word essays) tonight lol


Well, at the very least they will have some substance to the post, unlike this thread actually:lol:

Bickering women.

Guy 1...I know a guy that uses shakes only and is huge.

Guy 2..I know a guy on whole foods only and is huge.

Guy 1. But my guy is ginger

Guy 2. You win:lol:


----------



## Yoshi

Haha I would rep but my phone!

Made me laugh out loud in bed and mrs gave me a werid look...


----------



## Yoshi

I've never meet a genetic gifted ginger... Only a Ginger who uses mrt2 and burns in sun light ...


----------



## bigrod1982

Mate you would only need 100 grams from Dry whole foods then throow in 40grams in a shake Post!

Concentrate on getting the carbs in. They are protein sparring so in effect the more carbs the less protein u need to a point plus they will keep you anabolic!

Lookm beyound Protein push yourself every workout, get your fodd in and rest! Simples


----------



## Yoshi

Ronnie Coleman 500mg test a week

Weeman 5000mg a week... Lol


----------



## sniper83

bigrod1982 said:


> Mate you would only need 100 grams from Dry whole foods then throow in 40grams in a shake Post!
> 
> Concentrate on getting the carbs in. They are protein sparring so in effect the more carbs the less protein u need to a point plus they will keep you anabolic!
> 
> Lookm beyound Protein push yourself every workout, get your fodd in and rest! Simples


I second that bro top words


----------



## weeman

so rod your saying only need 140g prot in a day?


----------



## TIMMY_432

This fcukin thread man lol look, everybody's body is different and reacts to things in different ways! Whether it be rec drugs, aas, alcohol, or the amount of protein one needs in order to grow!

If you grown well eating 300g protein, then eat 300g protein!

I respect the science behind it but like I said, we are all different!


----------



## big_jim_87

MacUK said:


> Ronnie Coleman 500mg test a week
> 
> Weeman 5000mg a week... Lol


Ronnie Coleman-bull shyt

Weeman-honest


----------



## weeman

big_jim_87 said:


> Ronnie Coleman-bull shyt
> 
> Weeman-honest


he actually misquoted me mate,i was on 6g test a week just before the heart failure :lol: :lol:


----------



## Fatstuff

weeman said:


> he actually misquoted me mate,i was on 6g test a week just before the heart failure :lol: :lol:


The heart failure was from too much fcukin shagging and nothing else. But the selfish fcuker just won't give it up!!


----------



## hackskii

I love you guys.

Have I ever said that?

I love you guys and love your humor, I love the banter even though I do not understand your language:lol:

Weeman is the man, and the scooner I give him a big hug, the better.

I love you Bri, I love ser more but not in a gay way:lol:

When I visit Scotland I will hug you big time, you will like it, you will not turn gay, and I will not enjoy the hug other than feeling your life blood in my arms.

Thats right, feeling the man in my arms.

Now can someone please put me onto that podcast where I can hear my new boyfriends voice?

Dammit:cursing:


----------



## big_jim_87

weeman said:


> he actually misquoted me mate,i was on 6g test a week just before the heart failure :lol: :lol:


yea I remember... but the point is Big Ron ain't gonna tel any one what he is on...

i reckon if you were eating more sold pro maybe around the 500g mark you'd have been ok... high pro helps prevents heart failure... ent ask me to prove it i can't find the study but its true...


----------



## dtlv

hackskii said:


> I love you guys.
> 
> Have I ever said that?
> 
> I love you guys and love your humor, I love the banter even though I do not understand your language:lol:
> 
> Weeman is the man, and the scooner I give him a big hug, the better.
> 
> I love you Bri, I love ser more but not in a gay way:lol:
> 
> When I visit Scotland I will hug you big time, you will like it, you will not turn gay, and I will not enjoy the hug other than feeling your life blood in my arms.
> 
> Thats right, feeling the man in my arms.
> 
> Now can someone please put me onto that podcast where I can hear my new boyfriends voice?
> 
> Dammit:cursing:


Sorry Hacks, but no amount of saying "not in a gay way" is gonna make this post not look gay... has it really been that long since the wife put out? :lol:


----------



## hackskii

Dtlv74 said:


> Sorry Hacks, but no amount of saying "not in a gay way" is gonna make this post not look gay... has it really been that long since the wife put out? :lol:


7 months and counting.

Is that long? :lol:


----------



## XRichHx

Why are you so upset Anabolluck?

If folk what to pan 500 g of protein a day then why don't u just let them.


----------



## marknorthumbria

i tried to eat 500grams of protein yesterday....

i failed


----------



## JANIKvonD

im just impressed how much effort and time u put into making urself look like a complete bellend, :lol: any1 who's this deluded and takes the time to reply to every post..while completely swerving answering any fact related questions deserves reps (or was it stitches?) achh have bellend reps


----------



## sniper83

@anobolic did mentzer only eat 100g protein a day?


----------



## deemann

> [/QUYup he actually ate less when dieting down for a show too....
> 
> From his journal:
> 
> "Protein requirements depend almost entirely on your body weight, not your level of physical activity, because it is not used as fuel as long as the body?s energy supply is adequate. The rule of thumb is one gram of protein per day for every two pounds of bodyweight. There is no reason to buy expensive supplements since the amount of protein can be obtained from any well-balanced diet that includes meat, fish, or dairy products. I maintain my weight at about 220 pounds and consume about 60 grams of protein a day, less than recommended for my weight, and I?m still growing muscle."OTE]
> 
> How long have trained with so little protein ?


----------



## Mingster

Mentzer advocated 25% protein in ones diet as muscle itself is roughly 25% protein. He, however, was also an advocate of people trying out various different dieting scenarios to see what worked for them and often said that his methods weren't ideal for everyone.

In many ways I agree with AnabOlics training ideas. I will be training chest and shoulders later today and will be doing 7 total sets for chest and 3 or 4 total sets for shoulders. That's total sets, not working sets. However, I have tried every diet imaginable over 30 years of lifting and I repeat, yet again, that high protein works best for me. Is 500g of protein too many? Yes, it probably is. But how will I know for certain until I try? I like to try things and see how they work for me. Call me selfish, but I'm not interested in what works for someone else


----------



## Fat

Possibly one of the longest standing debates in sports nutrition (not that people don't argue about stuff constantly) is over protein requirements for athletes. Traditionally, there have been two primary and opposing views to this topic.

In the first camp are mainstream nutrition types, usually registered dieticians who maintain that the RDA for protein is sufficient for all conditions, including individuals involved heavily in sports. Their bible, the RDA Handbook mirrors this stance. So what is the RDA? Currently it's set at 0.8 g/kg (0.36 g/lb) protein per day. For a 200 lb individual that's a mere 72 grams of protein per day. I bet most of the people reading this eat that at a meal.

As a sub-argument to what I wrote above, some will point out that, even if protein requirements in athletes are higher, since most strength athletes already eat more protein than the supposed requirements, there is no need to worry about it in the first place. That is, strength athletes already consume enough protein and needn't focus on trying to get more.

At the other extreme are the athletes themselves who have long felt (and therefore argued) that high proteins are absolutely necessary for optimal results. Bodybuilders have traditionally used 1 g/lb (2.2 g/kg) as a baseline recommendation with others taking this level to 2 g/lb (4.4 g/kg) or sometimes even higher. Muscle magazines, usually with a vested interest in moving protein powder tend to promote high protein intakes with claims of athletes eating 800-1000 grams protein per day (a level only achievable with supplementation) being claimed by top bodybuilders.

*Who's Right?*

Science nerds like me always want to see the research on the topic. Of course, if you know me at all, you know that I've read it all. To say that it's a bit mixed is an understatement and even researchers can't make up their damn minds, preferring to hold polite arguments with one another for months in scientific journals.

Some research seems to clearly indicate an increased requirement for protein. But it uses a methodology (nitrogen balance) that is questionable at best, so the low-protein folks will shoot it down.

Other research (done with low intensity aerobic work) suggests that training improves protein retention; that is, as athletes become more trained, their protein requirements may actually go down. But does research with lower intensity aerobic work apply to the kind of training a strength/power athlete is doing? Probably not, so the high protein researchers will shoot that down. Around and around it goes.

Some research (again using a questionable methodology) suggests that athletes need more protein when they start a new or intensified training program but after a couple of weeks, protein requirements go back down. What happens if you're always pushing your limits day in, day out, week in, week out? Nobody knows.

Of course the impact of anabolic steroids on protein requirements is almost a complete unknown although, empirically, most who would argue that a natural bodybuilder only needs 1 g/lb daily would also argue that someone using anabolics needs about double that to maximize the effects of the drugs.

A final problem is what's being measured. Athletes want to know what will maximizes their performance, strength, power, speed, throwing, etc. Researchers invariably measure stuff of less relevance to athletes and coaches. Nitrogen balance, amino acid uptake, sometimes actual muscle growth is measured over the length of the study. Is the amount of protein needed to optimize performance different than what's needed to maximize some aspect of muscular physiology?

An added issue is that solely looking at skeletal muscle may be missing pathways of importance to athletes. Immune system, connective tissue synthesis and a host of other pathways use amino acids; presumably athletes will upregulate those pathways. Meaning that true protein requirements, if you only look at what's going on in the muscle, may be under-estimating what athletes truly need to maximize every aspect of performance.

The debate rages on and on and I'm not going togo into much more detail here about it. If you want to read about it in seemingly endless detail, I spent an entire chapter addressing both sides of the controversy in The Protein Book.

Sufficed to say that, as is always the case, both sides have their research, both ends of the research can be criticized on some methodological grounds or another and I don't think researchers are going to stop arguing with one another any time soon.

*Reaching a Consensus*

And yet, I'm going to tell you how to rationalize all of the above stuff that I imagine most of you skimmed in the first place. Two researchers, named Tipton and Wolfe wrote a cool paper about this argument. In it they first detailed all of the stuff I just bored you with. At the end they gave their recommendations where they basically argued that

We don't know how much protein is required to optimize all of the potential pathways important to athletes.

We know that a protein intake of 1.4 g/lb (3.0 g/kg) isn't harmful and may have benefits that are too small to be measured in research

As long as eating lots of protein doesn't keep an athlete from eating too few of the other nutrients (carbs/fats), there's no reason to not eat a lot. And there may be benefits.

Essentially, a high protein intake won't hurt an athlete (basically everything you may have read about the dangers of high protein intakes is nonsense), it may provide small benefits of importance to elite athletes and, at the end of the day athletes and coaches don't give a **** about pedantic scientific debates over amino acid metabolism that gives researchers and nerds like me a giant hardon. Admittedly, they didn't put it in exactly those terms but that's the gist of it.

So here's my recommendation, strength/power athletes should aim for 1.5 g/lb protein per day (again, this is about 3.3 g/kg for the metrically inclined). So for a 200 lb strength/power athlete, that's 300 grams of protein per day. For a 300 lber, that's 450 grams per day. If you're Jeff Lewis, I imagine your protein requirements are basically 'All of it' or perhaps 'A cow'. Per day.

Since most strength/power athletes have plenty high caloric requirements, this will still leave plenty of room for the other macros and, if nothing else, will ensure that protein intake is not limiting in any way. I'd note that female athletes often restrict calories heavily (for both good and bad reasons) and it is possible for them to get into situations where protein ends up making up damn near all of their daily food intake. There is some evidence that female athletes can get by with less protein but I'm not going to get into that here; perhaps a later article for Elite Fitness can address that.

I'd add that athletes who are using anabolics may wish to take this even higher, 2 g/lb (4.4 g/kg) or possibly higher. Again, very little research here.

I should address one other issue that always seems to come up about now which is whether to set protein requirements relative to lean body mass or total weight. There are some good arguments for both. In theory, using lean body mass probably makes the most sense, fat cells don't have a huge protein requirement. At the same time, problems in measuring LBM and the fact that a little bit too much protein is arguably superior to too little make total bodyweight more tenable. Or at least easier to use. I'd only note that, for athletes carrying tremendous amounts of body fat (you know who you are), scaling protein intake back to take that into account may no be a bad idea. It may not be necessary but it can still be done.

*More Protein Issues*

Having looked at the issue of quantity, I want to talk briefly about issues of quality and variety. Frankly, the whole deal with protein quality has been blown way out of proportion by most folks. Unless you're talking about folks eating small amounts of single ****ty quality proteins every day, it's just not that relevant. So yeah, for someone getting 30 grams of some **** quality grain as their only protein source, quality matters.

When an athlete is eating 1.5 g/lb or more of high quality (read: animal source) proteins per day, it really doesn't. Now, yes, there are differences between proteins in terms of digestion speed (which is relevant for around workout nutrition) and other micronutrients (e.g. red meat has lots of zinc and iron, fatty fish has fish oils, etc.), amino acid can vary too (e.g. dairy proteins have more leucine than other sources) but unless you live on that one source, it's just not that critical an issue to worry about most of the time. Rather, I recommend that strength/power athletes try to obtain their daily protein from mixed sources every day. That way, any potential limitation of one protein will be fixed by the consumption of another protein. As well, although there isn't much research to base this on, I feel that consuming different protein sources at a given meal may be superior to single sources. You're getting slightly different amino acid patterns, digestion speeds, etc. You'll see this reflected in the sample menus below.

Of course, protein powders are always an option. I think they tend to have their greatest utility around training but they can be used for athletes on the go, or who are working endlessly during the day and who need to get protein in large amounts quickly. For various reasons (discussed, of course, in my book), I prefer milk protein isolate (a mix of whey and casein) for most applications. Fast digesting proteins such as whey are most appropriate before or during training (I prefer MPI post-workout).


----------



## Yoshi

I've never seen posts so long....


----------



## hackskii

JANIKvonD said:


> im just impressed how much effort and time u put into making urself look like a complete bellend,


But, I was not trying to be a bell end, I am sorry and apologize if I came across as such.


----------



## Yoshi

hackskii said:


> But, I was not trying to be a bell end, I am sorry and apologize if I came across as such.


Maybe you should just leave the board mate my posts seem to better then yours in this thread... Lol


----------



## hackskii

MacUK said:


> Maybe you should just leave the board mate my posts seem to better then yours in this thread... Lol


You have a very valid point, and in fact, I think you are right.

I am going to miss you guys, miss this place, and have to find something else to do at work now. :crying:


----------



## TAFFY

weeman said:


> I do advocate on prep for guys to get as much of their intake in from solid as soon as they can for those reasons mate,defo a believer there,but offseason theres no real reason to be as anal with it,think you'll agree its hard enough living the bbing lifestyle without having to juggle 6-8 meals a day year in year out along with families,jobs etc etc,shakes are convenient and still carry you towards your muscle gaining goals
> 
> As an aside from that,is no one going to applaude me on my rather deft pic whoring i just did on the page before?even in the middle of a debate there is always a way to whore pics of ones self :lol: :lol:


think you summed it up well there mate,shakes are good for people who on the go or cant always plan there meals i don really have that problem much,iam self employed got no kids:thumb:

just when i started b/b some one told me not to rely on shakes to much,get my diet right first,plus when you cut back on shakes for show etc and you havent got a solid diet then you might have few problems,he said start with good healthy diet first then only have shakes like you said when you really need them!!


----------



## big_jim_87

anab0lic said:


> 1
> 
> LOL. a 10 inch arm when? When you were 9 years old? I'm talking about having 11 inches arms as a fully grown adult...BIG difference. Your saying you probably had this probably had that....you dont even know.... Oh and you can tell a lot about a guys potential to be muscular from his bone structure, especially looking at the wrist and ankle measurements.... there's a great article on this that pretty much predicts how big you can get based on those measurements looking back at what the top pro natural bodybuilders achieved with those dimensions.... of course steroids allow you to go past that point, but if you have a low genetic ceiling as a natural it will be lower than everyone else if you hop on the juice and everyone else is juicing too ..
> 
> 2
> 
> And when I talk about Dorian's low volume routine I'm talking about actual worksets per lift, whcih is very low compared to other bodybuilders.... I too believe like him that for complete development a muscle must be worked from different angles....but it only takes one all out set to cause enough trauma that will result in growth compensation and thats what he did. That's what I mean by low volume.


1

well i did say when i started training... i wasn't 9 when I started training... before any exercise I was 9.7stn (I am a short ass tho) started training at 17.

probly this probly that because i ent care as i look good now... i can see why you know 100% as you looked a cvnt then and still do.

you blame so much on poor genetics but mate I DNT CARE WHAT YOU LOOK LIKE its the bolox you spout about 0g crabs bring the way to grow.

I only do one top weight set to failure too... but 20 sets plus is 20 sets plus.... i do low volume periods and very high periods and the low volume is 7-12sets total high can be 20-35sets total... Yates wasn't low vol... Mike Mentzer was low volume... low volume is good but high volume is better.


----------



## big_jim_87

anab0lic said:


> And @ Weeman , You still haven't provided any proof that you couldn't grow the same with less protein and the same caloric intake whcih is kind of the crux of the argument here...
> 
> and no I'm not sifting through a 3000 page journal to find the exact time in which you did such a controlled experiment....when its probably not even there at all... I believe your size is down to A) You do have fairly decent genetics looking at your before pics..... despite what you say....no Dorian or Ronnie but certainly much better than mine... I should post some of my before pics here lol... (I think I have them on disc somewhere) Wide clavicles arnt the best indicator for msucle potential look at phil heath... you do still look broad at 15 though far from narrow showing a pic where you got fat is kinda misleading.... What are you wrist and ankle circumference measurements? A much better way of determining the absolute size you can reach... My wrists are 6.5 inches and my ankles are 8 inches... B) access to more drugs than most of the forum members around here + how long you've been using them and C) I think you train in a way that's far more productive than the average forum member on here. I believe how you train makes a tremendous difference to how much size you can attain... look at the average gym goer... most are on gear these days... most are eating more than they need when it comes to protein and calories (look how fat most guys are on these forums lol)....yet observe how many of them actually get bigger over the months... they never do.... because they train like everybody else. Theres a science to training productively its not just 'herp derp pick up heavy things and put them down' Once you understand the science you can formulate a plan based on that and see what needs to be done... you can really take your physique to a whole new level.... That's why i admire Dorian as a bodybuilder, he didnt just train hard he trained SMART. But you will still be ultimately limited by your genetics as to how freaky large you can be.
> 
> I dont think your size has anything to do with years of such a high protein intake you'd still have gotten to where you are now with A,B and C.


mate were is your "proof"?

the proof is in the pudding and weeman has shown progress pics what have you shown us other then you are a cock?

there is no argument here you a wrong end of lol were is the argument?

weeman has been saying he DNT have massive pro intake... ffs man have you read any of this?

aas training are a waist of time if diet is not spot on...


----------



## BB_999

@ Weeman

That's an impressive transformation mate. Respect.

What's the timescale from the moobs photo to your current condition?

Also, how heavy are your cycles?


----------



## Yoshi

The Lifter said:


> @ Weeman
> 
> That's an impressive transformation mate. Respect.
> 
> What's the timescale from the moobs photo to your current condition?
> 
> Also, how heavy are your cycles?


Something like 2 dbol a day and 250mg test a week.


----------



## dtlv

For those interested in scientific data, a couple of links that people might find interesting:

International Society of Sports Nutrition position stand - Protein and Exercise: http://www.jissn.com/content/4/1/8

International Society of Sports Nutrition: Dietary Protein safety and Resistance Exercise: what do we really know? : http://www.jissn.com/content/6/1/3


----------



## dtlv

In respect of dietary fat and sat fats, no need to avoid either at all... I do agree with Anab0lic on this - however I disagree somewhat on sat fats.

Nothing wrong with sat fats themselves - the actual body of evidence shows sat fats having no greater association with CV health risk than carbs do (risk is equal for each - http://www.ajcn.org/content/91/3/535.full), but there is a large body of evidence to suggest that swapping sat fats for other fats actually lowers various disease risk factors... high fat diets can be fine, but IMO it's important to recognise the types of individual fat do matter.

Dietary fat type and CV disease risk: http://www.jacn.org/content/20/1/5.full

Dietary fat type and cancer risk: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/009174359090025F

Dietary fat type and insulin sensitivity: http://www.springerlink.com/content/1enfcr0fm56k1xh2/

Also, the effects of type of dietary fat can influence the stability of ketosis in ketogenic diets, where PUFA based high fat diets show more stable ketosis and greater insulin sensitivity than sat fat based ketogenic diets: http://jcem.endojournals.org/content/89/4/1641.full

Personally I'd back that up with my own experience in that when trying keto for the second time I used lower sat fats and higher PUFA's and MUFA's than sat fats and found far fewer issues in the adaptation phase and much more stable perception of energy levels.

Anyway balance of types of fat and individual fatty acids is interesting but off topic so will leave it there.


----------



## Yoshi

Dtlv74 said:


> In respect of dietary fat and sat fats, no need to avoid either at all... I do agree with Anab0lic on this - however I disagree somewhat on sat fats.
> 
> Nothing wrong with sat fats themselves - the actual body of evidence shows sat fats having no greater association with CV health risk than carbs do (risk is equal for each - http://www.ajcn.org/content/91/3/535.full), but there is a large body of evidence to suggest that swapping sat fats for other fats actually lowers various disease risk factors... high fat diets can be fine, but IMO it's important to recognise the types of individual fat do matter.
> 
> Dietary fat type and CV disease risk: http://www.jacn.org/content/20/1/5.full
> 
> Dietary fat type and cancer risk: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/009174359090025F
> 
> Dietary fat type and insulin sensitivity: http://www.springerlink.com/content/1enfcr0fm56k1xh2/
> 
> Also, the effects of type of dietary fat can influence the stability of ketosis in ketogenic diets, where PUFA based high fat diets show more stable ketosis and greater insulin sensitivity than sat fat based ketogenic diets: http://jcem.endojournals.org/content/89/4/1641.full
> 
> Personally I'd back that up with my own experience in that when trying keto for the second time I used lower sat fats and higher PUFA's and MUFA's than sat fats and found far fewer issues in the adaptation phase and much more stable perception of energy levels.
> 
> Anyway balance of types of fat and individual fatty acids is interesting but off topic so will leave it there.


No offence mate I've read loads of your posts, you know a lot, a lot of things border line Scott knowledge but your not a big guy so guessing not from experience how the fck yiu know this sh1t lol!


----------



## bayman

Fat said:


> Possibly one of the longest standing debates in sports nutrition (not that people don't argue about stuff constantly) is over protein requirements for athletes. Traditionally, there have been two primary and opposing views to this topic.
> 
> In the first camp are mainstream nutrition types, usually registered dieticians who maintain that the RDA for protein is sufficient for all conditions, including individuals involved heavily in sports. Their bible, the RDA Handbook mirrors this stance. So what is the RDA? Currently it's set at 0.8 g/kg (0.36 g/lb) protein per day. For a 200 lb individual that's a mere 72 grams of protein per day. I bet most of the people reading this eat that at a meal.
> 
> As a sub-argument to what I wrote above, some will point out that, even if protein requirements in athletes are higher, since most strength athletes already eat more protein than the supposed requirements, there is no need to worry about it in the first place. That is, strength athletes already consume enough protein and needn't focus on trying to get more.
> 
> At the other extreme are the athletes themselves who have long felt (and therefore argued) that high proteins are absolutely necessary for optimal results. Bodybuilders have traditionally used 1 g/lb (2.2 g/kg) as a baseline recommendation with others taking this level to 2 g/lb (4.4 g/kg) or sometimes even higher. Muscle magazines, usually with a vested interest in moving protein powder tend to promote high protein intakes with claims of athletes eating 800-1000 grams protein per day (a level only achievable with supplementation) being claimed by top bodybuilders.
> 
> *Who's Right?*
> 
> Science nerds like me always want to see the research on the topic. Of course, if you know me at all, you know that I've read it all. To say that it's a bit mixed is an understatement and even researchers can't make up their damn minds, preferring to hold polite arguments with one another for months in scientific journals.
> 
> Some research seems to clearly indicate an increased requirement for protein. But it uses a methodology (nitrogen balance) that is questionable at best, so the low-protein folks will shoot it down.
> 
> Other research (done with low intensity aerobic work) suggests that training improves protein retention; that is, as athletes become more trained, their protein requirements may actually go down. But does research with lower intensity aerobic work apply to the kind of training a strength/power athlete is doing? Probably not, so the high protein researchers will shoot that down. Around and around it goes.
> 
> Some research (again using a questionable methodology) suggests that athletes need more protein when they start a new or intensified training program but after a couple of weeks, protein requirements go back down. What happens if you're always pushing your limits day in, day out, week in, week out? Nobody knows.
> 
> Of course the impact of anabolic steroids on protein requirements is almost a complete unknown although, empirically, most who would argue that a natural bodybuilder only needs 1 g/lb daily would also argue that someone using anabolics needs about double that to maximize the effects of the drugs.
> 
> A final problem is what's being measured. Athletes want to know what will maximizes their performance, strength, power, speed, throwing, etc. Researchers invariably measure stuff of less relevance to athletes and coaches. Nitrogen balance, amino acid uptake, sometimes actual muscle growth is measured over the length of the study. Is the amount of protein needed to optimize performance different than what's needed to maximize some aspect of muscular physiology?
> 
> An added issue is that solely looking at skeletal muscle may be missing pathways of importance to athletes. Immune system, connective tissue synthesis and a host of other pathways use amino acids; presumably athletes will upregulate those pathways. Meaning that true protein requirements, if you only look at what's going on in the muscle, may be under-estimating what athletes truly need to maximize every aspect of performance.
> 
> The debate rages on and on and I'm not going togo into much more detail here about it. If you want to read about it in seemingly endless detail, I spent an entire chapter addressing both sides of the controversy in The Protein Book.
> 
> Sufficed to say that, as is always the case, both sides have their research, both ends of the research can be criticized on some methodological grounds or another and I don't think researchers are going to stop arguing with one another any time soon.
> 
> *Reaching a Consensus*
> 
> And yet, I'm going to tell you how to rationalize all of the above stuff that I imagine most of you skimmed in the first place. Two researchers, named Tipton and Wolfe wrote a cool paper about this argument. In it they first detailed all of the stuff I just bored you with. At the end they gave their recommendations where they basically argued that
> 
> We don't know how much protein is required to optimize all of the potential pathways important to athletes.
> 
> We know that a protein intake of 1.4 g/lb (3.0 g/kg) isn't harmful and may have benefits that are too small to be measured in research
> 
> As long as eating lots of protein doesn't keep an athlete from eating too few of the other nutrients (carbs/fats), there's no reason to not eat a lot. And there may be benefits.
> 
> Essentially, a high protein intake won't hurt an athlete (basically everything you may have read about the dangers of high protein intakes is nonsense), it may provide small benefits of importance to elite athletes and, at the end of the day athletes and coaches don't give a **** about pedantic scientific debates over amino acid metabolism that gives researchers and nerds like me a giant hardon. Admittedly, they didn't put it in exactly those terms but that's the gist of it.
> 
> So here's my recommendation, strength/power athletes should aim for 1.5 g/lb protein per day (again, this is about 3.3 g/kg for the metrically inclined). So for a 200 lb strength/power athlete, that's 300 grams of protein per day. For a 300 lber, that's 450 grams per day. If you're Jeff Lewis, I imagine your protein requirements are basically 'All of it' or perhaps 'A cow'. Per day.
> 
> Since most strength/power athletes have plenty high caloric requirements, this will still leave plenty of room for the other macros and, if nothing else, will ensure that protein intake is not limiting in any way. I'd note that female athletes often restrict calories heavily (for both good and bad reasons) and it is possible for them to get into situations where protein ends up making up damn near all of their daily food intake. There is some evidence that female athletes can get by with less protein but I'm not going to get into that here; perhaps a later article for Elite Fitness can address that.
> 
> I'd add that athletes who are using anabolics may wish to take this even higher, 2 g/lb (4.4 g/kg) or possibly higher. Again, very little research here.
> 
> I should address one other issue that always seems to come up about now which is whether to set protein requirements relative to lean body mass or total weight. There are some good arguments for both. In theory, using lean body mass probably makes the most sense, fat cells don't have a huge protein requirement. At the same time, problems in measuring LBM and the fact that a little bit too much protein is arguably superior to too little make total bodyweight more tenable. Or at least easier to use. I'd only note that, for athletes carrying tremendous amounts of body fat (you know who you are), scaling protein intake back to take that into account may no be a bad idea. It may not be necessary but it can still be done.
> 
> *More Protein Issues*
> 
> Having looked at the issue of quantity, I want to talk briefly about issues of quality and variety. Frankly, the whole deal with protein quality has been blown way out of proportion by most folks. Unless you're talking about folks eating small amounts of single ****ty quality proteins every day, it's just not that relevant. So yeah, for someone getting 30 grams of some **** quality grain as their only protein source, quality matters.
> 
> When an athlete is eating 1.5 g/lb or more of high quality (read: animal source) proteins per day, it really doesn't. Now, yes, there are differences between proteins in terms of digestion speed (which is relevant for around workout nutrition) and other micronutrients (e.g. red meat has lots of zinc and iron, fatty fish has fish oils, etc.), amino acid can vary too (e.g. dairy proteins have more leucine than other sources) but unless you live on that one source, it's just not that critical an issue to worry about most of the time. Rather, I recommend that strength/power athletes try to obtain their daily protein from mixed sources every day. That way, any potential limitation of one protein will be fixed by the consumption of another protein. As well, although there isn't much research to base this on, I feel that consuming different protein sources at a given meal may be superior to single sources. You're getting slightly different amino acid patterns, digestion speeds, etc. You'll see this reflected in the sample menus below.
> 
> Of course, protein powders are always an option. I think they tend to have their greatest utility around training but they can be used for athletes on the go, or who are working endlessly during the day and who need to get protein in large amounts quickly. For various reasons (discussed, of course, in my book), I prefer milk protein isolate (a mix of whey and casein) for most applications. Fast digesting proteins such as whey are most appropriate before or during training (I prefer MPI post-workout).


At least quote your source.


----------



## bayman

MacUK said:


> No offence mate I've read loads of your posts, you know a lot, a lot of things border line Scott knowledge but your not a big guy so guessing not from experience how the fck yiu know this sh1t lol!


Because he actually takes the time to do some research.


----------



## Yoshi

bayman said:


> Because he actually takes the time to do some research.


More like he has a degree so stfu wasn't asking you  a and b convo not a b and c


----------



## bayman

MacUK said:


> More like he has a degree so stfu wasn't asking you  a and b convo not a b and c


In English if you please


----------



## Yoshi

bayman said:


> In English if you please


Your a skinny Cnut shut the fck up


----------



## dtlv

MacUK said:


> No offence mate I've read loads of your posts, you know a lot, a lot of things border line Scott knowledge but your not a big guy so guessing not from experience how the fck yiu know this sh1t lol!


You calling me out Mac?... you cheeky boy :tongue:

Well I studied physiology and biochemistry, so that's the basis of the knowledge. Yep, I haven't bodybuilt for several years now and am slim line compared to my best shape at the moment... my basic training CV is only around four years bodybuilding (number of years training where the goal was to gain weight and muscle), and about eight years where resistance training has been about health, improving CV fitness and body weight maintenance.

Also had some lengthy episodes of PTSD and depression interrupting all that where I didn't take good care of myself, and have spent a lot of time just battling that and having to forget about exercise or diet.

In the four years that I bodybuilt I went from 63kg (13.5% b/fat) to 82kg (9.5% b/fat). Leanest I've ever been was approx 7.5% b/fat at around 75kg - all in all nothing exceptional but not a disaster either I don't think. Current condition is untrained in quite a while (hardly anything for about two years due to illness and injury), but I come in at around 11-12% b/fat and probably in the mid 70's (kg). Never used any PEDs.

Despite never being super huge though, I have tried a lot of different approaches and I have noticed differences between them in effectiveness (am pretty methodical in how I do things) for me personally, so I always mention these. I also have helped several people train and formulate diets over the years, and speak from my experiences of the way others respond... basically my posts reflect my own experience, my own understanding of the science, and the things I've personally observed in others.

I'm just here to offer my views though hopefully in a helpful way - I don't claim total understanding at all (in fact the opposite), and I assume that rather than just accept what I say people will use it as something to do research or experiment from for themselves. I give my advice and my opinion, not orders to people telling them what to do.


----------



## bayman

MacUK said:


> Your a skinny Cnut shut the fck up


Wow, the level of intelligence round here just dropped one hundred percent.


----------



## Yoshi

Dtlv74 said:


> You calling me out Mac?... you cheeky boy :tongue:
> 
> Well I studied physiology and biochemistry, so that's the basis of the knowledge. Yep, I haven't bodybuilt for several years now and am slim line compared to my best shape at the moment... my basic training CV is only around four years bodybuilding (number of years training where the goal was to gain weight and muscle), and about eight years where resistance training has been about health, improving CV fitness and body weight maintenance.
> 
> Also had some lengthy episodes of PTSD and depression interrupting all that where I didn't take good care of myself, and have spent a lot of time just battling that and having to forget about exercise or diet.
> 
> In the four years that I bodybuilt I went from 63kg (13.5% b/fat) to 82kg (9.5% b/fat). Leanest I've ever been was approx 7.5% b/fat at around 75kg - all in all nothing exceptional but not a disaster either I don't think. Current condition is untrained in quite a while (hardly anything for about two years due to illness and injury), but I come in at around 11-12% b/fat and probably in the mid 70's (kg). Never used any PEDs.
> 
> Despite never being super huge though, I have tried a lot of different approaches and I have noticed differences between them in effectiveness (am pretty methodical in how I do things) for me personally, so I always mention these. I also have helped several people train and formulate diets over the years, and speak from my experiences of the way others respond... basically my posts reflect my own experience, my own understanding of the science, and the things I've personally observed in others.
> 
> I'm just here to offer my views though hopefully in a helpful way - I don't claim total understanding at all (in fact the opposite), and I assume that rather than just accept what I say people will use it as something to do research or experiment from for themselves. I give my advice and my opinion, not orders to people telling them what to do.


So where do you see yourself in 5 years?.... Lol

Not calling you out mate at all I know you know your stuff was just generally interested mate


----------



## Yoshi

bayman said:


> Wow, the level of intelligence round here just dropped one hundred percent.


Cry to someone who cares I'm not intelligent and I don't know half the things these guys go on about hence why I pay mxd as a coach lol

Plus I'm friends with most the guys in this thread hence why I just drop comments like "your a far ginger and god hates you "

Chill out  not your fault your skinny mate


----------



## bayman

MacUK said:


> Cry to someone who cares I'm not intelligent and I don't know half the things these guys go on about hence why I pay mxd as a coach lol
> 
> Plus I'm friends with most the guys in this thread hence why I just drop comments like "your a far ginger and god hates you "
> 
> Chill out  not your fault your skinny mate


Chill out? I'm perfectly chilled, "mate." Especially when I know I'm being called out by someone smaller and weaker than I am.

You see an ad hominem attack is a form of logical fallacy used by someone who can't engage in logical debate on something. There are many examples in this thread "Post pics or STFU" "You're skinny so what you're saying is wrong"

In other words, calling someone out is just weak, a bit like you.


----------



## dtlv

MacUK said:


> So where do you see yourself in 5 years?.... Lol
> 
> Not calling you out mate at all I know you know your stuff was just generally interested mate


In five years I'll be a millionaire living in tropical paradise surrounded by a harem of beautiful, hot exotic women... I will have the body of a world class athlete, and will be adored the world over and worshiped like a god.

Alternatively I might end up in council house in Moss Side Manchester :lol:

seriously though I just want to stay psychologically happy and fulfilled and physically healthy. I do feel i need to build back up some more muscle now, and to be honest do sometimes wonder why the hell I'm a mod here because currently I don't have the same size or caliber physique as my mod colleagues, but in the main I'm more happy with who I am now than at any other point in my life and don't feel any need to bulk up or lean out to improve my self esteem.


----------



## Yoshi

bayman said:


> Chill out? I'm perfectly chilled, "mate." Especially when I know I'm being called out by someone smaller and weaker than I am.
> 
> You see an ad hominem attack is a form of logical fallacy used by someone who can't engage in logical debate on something. There are many examples in this thread "Post pics or STFU" "You're skinny so what you're saying is wrong"
> 
> In other words, calling someone out is just weak, a bit like you.


O man I'm so hurt


----------



## sniper83

anab0lic said:


> another guy who didn't boatload the protein, just ate a well balanced diet....
> 
> View attachment 88570
> 
> 
> I may be able to actually get his exact daily diet if you like....since I know the guy who trained alongside him in his prime I can tell you now for sure though its under 150gs a day of protein.
> 
> Stop ****ing wasting your money guys seriously.... I sware so many guys are literally paranoid as fcuk to even experiment with lower protein intake, thinking they will wither away and shirnk down to a twig and that none of their workouts will be productive.... I'll admit I too was once like that.... I'm dieting right now on about 80-100grams of protein a day I haven't lost any strength or muscle mass in the last month and a half. Try it for a couple weeks.... its two weeks out of your life... and when you see you don't need anywhere near as much as you've been told by so called 'expert' do you know how much money you are now saving? Especially when considering most of you are probably in this for the long haul. And how much more enjoyable it is to eat in a way where you are not shoveling down high protein foods all day long?
> 
> .


I agree with you and i use more or less the same methods,i took a full year off of protein supps and didnt notice any difference i have however brought a shake a day in post work out just for recovery more than anything 1 a day keeps costs down and i feel that is the best time to use it.

can you get that diet up if you can please pal?


----------



## dtlv

Guys be nice please 

I don't actually mind when people call me out, either joking or seriously - have nothing to hide and never been dishonest about my views or my background. Is up to others how much value they see in my contribution, and am happy to be told if it's seen to be somehow lacking.

from my perspective am here because I genuinely enjoy training discussion, and because I enjoy helping people where/if I'm able. I'm not here to self promote, make claims that I'm anything special, or to try to sell anyone a specific idea or training or diet ideology... I'll leave all that to some other people.


----------



## Yoshi

bayman said:


> Chill out? I'm perfectly chilled, "mate." Especially when I know I'm being called out by someone smaller and weaker than I am.
> 
> You see an ad hominem attack is a form of logical fallacy used by someone who can't engage in logical debate on something. There are many examples in this thread "Post pics or STFU" "You're skinny so what you're saying is wrong"
> 
> In other words, calling someone out is just weak, a bit like you.


Don't agure with an idiot(me) because I'll only bring you down to my level and beat you with experience... Lol


----------



## bayman

Dtlv74 said:


> from my perspective am here because I genuinely enjoy training discussion, and because I enjoy helping people where/if I'm able. I'm not here to self promote, make claims that I'm anything special, or to try to sell anyone a specific idea or training or diet ideology... I'll leave all that to some other people.


Same here.


----------



## dtlv

MacUK said:


> Don't agure with an idiot(me) because I'll only bring you down to my level and beat you with experience... Lol


truth :laugh:


----------



## dtlv

bayman said:


> Same here.


You also have a scientific background don't you Bayman? You certainly have a good grasp of scientific principal and analysis, show non biased views, and IMO you bring a lot to the table here (although you can sometimes seem a grump sod :lol: ).


----------



## bayman

Dtlv74 said:


> You also have a scientific background don't you Bayman? You certainly have a good grasp of scientific principal and analysis, show non biased views, and IMO you bring a lot to the table here (although you can sometimes seem a grump sod :lol: ).


Yep, BSc in Environmental Chemistry. I try to get as informed on topics as possible, and will often refer to pubmed and other sources to see if supplement "x" or claim "y" actually stacks up in a research rather than anecdotal setting.

If I come across as grumpy it's because of the swathes of lazy, spoon fed posters we're subject to everyday here at UKM! My patients wears thin! Although I do try.


----------



## Fatstuff

What's ur thoughts on 4-500g protein bayman ?


----------



## bayman

Fatstuff said:


> What's ur thoughts on 4-500g protein bayman ?


Personally? I think it's OTT.

Although there is little (if any) in the way of clinical research on protein utilisation rates in AAS users to refer back to. So we're left with the experiences of the guys who do this for a living.

I'm of the opinion that 3g per KG is sufficient for most people (and this is backed by research), including most AAS users. I mean, if it's a case of the 4-500g just adding extra cals, why not just eat more carbs or fats? Protein is expensive after all.

Plus there's only so much tissue you'll be accruing, even if you're on a boatload of gear.


----------



## dtlv

bayman said:


> Yep, BSc in Environmental Chemistry. I try to get as informed on topics as possible, and will often refer to pubmed and other sources to see if supplement "x" or claim "y" actually stacks up in a research rather than anecdotal setting.
> 
> If I come across as grumpy it's because of the swathes of lazy, spoon fed posters we're subject to everyday here at UKM! My patients wears thin! Although I do try.


Awesome, I'd imagine environmental chemistry to be very interesting as a topic (I have a nerdy love of chemistry).

I think you can split the forum members here (and on any big forum) into several groups I think - those who are looking to learn, share and expand knowledge via independent experimentation/study and discussion; those who want to improve but are happy to let others tell them what to do with out much self investigation; and those here to lecture people or to try to sell an idea. Then there's always a few here to self promote or post mostly just for the banter and social aspect, and of course the odd troll.

I get less impatient nowadays with people who I see as seemingly determined to not use common sense... but I do know what you are saying, lol. If people have a closed mind then usually the only evidence that they see is that which supports what they believe anyway and it matters little what more you show them. Many people also change views over time with what they discover as they go (I certainly have), and sometimes have to find things for themselves rather than learn from others... takes all types I guess.


----------



## Yoshi

Dtlv74 said:


> Awesome, I'd imagine environmental chemistry to be very interesting as a topic (I have a nerdy love of chemistry).
> 
> I think you can split the forum members here (and on any big forum) into several groups I think - those who are looking to learn, share and expand knowledge via independent experimentation/study and discussion; those who want to improve but are happy to let others tell them what to do with out much self investigation; and those here to lecture people or to try to sell an idea. Then there's always a few here to self promote or post mostly just for the banter and social aspect, and of course the odd troll.
> 
> I get less impatient nowadays with people who I see as seemingly determined to not use common sense... but I do know what you are saying, lol. If people have a closed mind then usually the only evidence that they see is that which supports what they believe anyway and it matters little what more you show them. Many people also change views over time with what they discover as they go (I certainly have), and sometimes have to find things for themselves rather than learn from others... takes all types I guess.


I wonder which group I'm I'm 

No offence intended bayman I'm just generally a Cnut

I also have a degree but nothing to do with bodybuilding in any shape or form, I have a first in quantum mechinics


----------



## hackskii

MacUK said:


> No offence mate I've read loads of your posts, you know a lot, a lot of things border line Scott knowledge but your not a big guy so guessing not from experience how the fck yiu know this sh1t lol!


Man, I cant hold a candle to det, he has more IQ, and is totally way more book smart.

I have zero qualifications, zero degrees, and if I didn't have a damn spell checker, you would not be able to read my posts:lol:

I want to thank you Det for one of those links this:

A previous investigation utilizing 130 United States Marine subjects [50] examined the effects of an ingested supplement (8 g carbohydrate, 10 g protein, 3 g fat) immediately after exercise on the status of various health markers. These data were compared to 129 subjects ingesting a non-protein supplement (8 g carbohydrate, 0 g protein, 3 g fat), and 128 subjects ingesting placebo tablets (0 g carbohydrate, 0 g protein, 0 g fat). Upon the completion of the 54-d trial, researchers reported that the subjects ingesting the protein supplement *had an average of 33% fewer total medical visits, including 28% less visits due to bacterial or viral infections, 37% less orthopedic-related visits, and 83% less visits due to heat exhaustion.* Moreover, post-exercise muscle soreness was significantly reduced in subjects ingesting protein when compared to the control groups.

I love a healthy debate, thanks Det for the links, I read both of them.

And if it makes you feel better, you are one of my most favorite mods.


----------



## Yoshi

hackskii said:


> Man, I cant hold a candle to det, he has more IQ, and is totally way more book smart.
> 
> I have zero qualifications, zero degrees, and if I didn't have a damn spell checker, you would not be able to read my posts:lol:
> 
> I want to thank you Det for one of those links this:
> 
> A previous investigation utilizing 130 United States Marine subjects [50] examined the effects of an ingested supplement (8 g carbohydrate, 10 g protein, 3 g fat) immediately after exercise on the status of various health markers. These data were compared to 129 subjects ingesting a non-protein supplement (8 g carbohydrate, 0 g protein, 3 g fat), and 128 subjects ingesting placebo tablets (0 g carbohydrate, 0 g protein, 0 g fat). Upon the completion of the 54-d trial, researchers reported that the subjects ingesting the protein supplement *had an average of 33% fewer total medical visits, including 28% less visits due to bacterial or viral infections, 37% less orthopedic-related visits, and 83% less visits due to heat exhaustion.* Moreover, post-exercise muscle soreness was significantly reduced in subjects ingesting protein when compared to the control groups.
> 
> I love a healthy debate, thanks Det for the links, I read both of them.
> 
> And if it makes you feel better, you are one of my most favorite mods.


I think your both Cnuts...

Aren't you a doctor or you brother or something mate?


----------



## bayman

MacUK said:


> I wonder which group I'm I'm
> 
> No offence intended bayman I'm just generally a Cnut
> 
> I also have a degree but nothing to do with bodybuilding in any shape or form, I have a first in quantum mechinics


No offence caused. After all, this is the internet.

And like my degree is remotely related to Bodybuilding or keeping fit! It just gives me some foundation in how and where to go look for research, and to interpret it.

If you're last statement is true, then I'm impressed. The small amount I've read on it just leaves me mind f*cked!


----------



## Fat

bayman said:


> Personally? I think it's OTT.
> 
> Although there is little (if any) in the way of clinical research on protein utilisation rates in AAS users to refer back to. So we're left with the experiences of the guys who do this for a living.
> 
> I'm of the opinion that 3g per KG is sufficient for most people (and this is backed by research), including most AAS users. I mean, if it's a case of the 4-500g just adding extra cals, why not just eat more carbs or fats? Protein is expensive after all.
> 
> Plus there's only so much tissue you'll be accruing, even if you're on a boatload of gear.


Not 1.5g per lbs which is the upper limit?


----------



## Yoshi

bayman said:


> No offence caused. After all, this is the internet.
> 
> And like my degree is remotely related to Bodybuilding or keeping fit! It just gives me some foundation in how and where to go look for research, and to interpret it.
> 
> If you're last statement is true, then I'm impressed. The small amount I've read on it just leaves me mind f*cked!


Did I say a degree in quantum mechinics? Sorry meant a masters in bullsh1t... I'm a sales man lol ex army


----------



## bayman

Fat said:


> Not 1.5g per lbs which is the upper limit?


1.5g per lb or 3g per KG. They're pretty much one and the same anyway!

220lb = 330g

100kg = 300g

What's 30g between friends?


----------



## hackskii

MacUK said:


> I think your both Cnuts...
> 
> Aren't you a doctor or you brother or something mate?


No, and no.

I am an inspector for a large airplane factory.

I have no medical experience, and hold no degrees of any kind not personal training, nothing.

I have trained for 34 years though.


----------



## dtlv

hackskii said:


> Man, I cant hold a candle to det, he has more IQ, and is totally way more book smart.
> 
> I have zero qualifications, zero degrees, and if I didn't have a damn spell checker, you would not be able to read my posts:lol:
> 
> I want to thank you Det for one of those links this:
> 
> A previous investigation utilizing 130 United States Marine subjects [50] examined the effects of an ingested supplement (8 g carbohydrate, 10 g protein, 3 g fat) immediately after exercise on the status of various health markers. These data were compared to 129 subjects ingesting a non-protein supplement (8 g carbohydrate, 0 g protein, 3 g fat), and 128 subjects ingesting placebo tablets (0 g carbohydrate, 0 g protein, 0 g fat). Upon the completion of the 54-d trial, researchers reported that the subjects ingesting the protein supplement *had an average of 33% fewer total medical visits, including 28% less visits due to bacterial or viral infections, 37% less orthopedic-related visits, and 83% less visits due to heat exhaustion.* Moreover, post-exercise muscle soreness was significantly reduced in subjects ingesting protein when compared to the control groups.
> 
> I love a healthy debate, thanks Det for the links, I read both of them.
> 
> And if it makes you feel better, you are one of my most favorite mods.


Thanks Scott, kind words really appreciated.

A person doesn't need a degree to understand science - it often helps in that you usually get a better understanding of how to look at and interpret scientific statistical and analytical methods and how to make sense of the raw data, but beyond that anyone with enough enthusiasm can learn to understand a fair degree of biochem and physiology simply by self study... you are in that bracket Scott and have very decent knowledge and a good open mind.

I love all my mod buddies, but will always have a special love for you dude... we are UKM's taoist-hippies remember? :lol:



MacUK said:


> I wonder which group I'm I'm
> 
> No offence intended bayman I'm just generally a Cnut
> 
> I also have a degree but nothing to do with bodybuilding in any shape or form, I have a first in quantum *mechinics*


You mean Quantum *Mechanics*? :lol:


----------



## dtlv

hackskii said:


> No, and no.
> 
> I am an inspector for a large airplane factory.
> 
> I have no medical experience, and hold no degrees of any kind not personal training, nothing.
> 
> *I have trained for 34 years though*.


And that experience counts!

Also, you may not have been a PT in the traditional sense, but you've probably helped literally thousands of people online deal with things in a better way, especially with things like AAS recovery protocols and diet too... massively valuable contribution.


----------



## Fatstuff

I fall in the read a bit, try a bit and see what fcuking happens with a side of added banter/trolling fun..... Category


----------



## ausbuilt

bayman said:


> Personally? I think it's OTT.
> 
> Although there is little (if any) in the way of clinical research on protein utilisation rates in AAS users to refer back to. So we're left with the experiences of the guys who do this for a living.
> 
> I'm of the opinion that 3g per KG is sufficient for most people (and this is backed by research), including most AAS users. I mean, if it's a case of the 4-500g just adding extra cals, why not just eat more carbs or fats? Protein is expensive after all.
> 
> Plus there's only so much tissue you'll be accruing, even if you're on a boatload of gear.


i agree it might be a bit OTT, but, apart from AAS supplemental T3 works synergistically with the AAS to make use of the extra protein intake...


----------



## dtlv

This uis back to the main point of topic in this thread - namely that AAS users have a potential to utilise a far greater amount of protein/amino's for muscle protein synthesis than nattys.

The issue though is relative lack of research in respect of diet/AAS interactions... most of the best info out there in this area comes from the guys who have been doing it all for a while, and self experimenting and prepping others.

I don't think there is enough info about to be close to saying what kind of figure may be optimum for an AAS user, but I think one thing that is clear is that AAS users can benefit from a higher intake than non AAS users.


----------



## big_jim_87

MacUK said:


> Your a skinny Cnut shut the fck up


so are you so also shhhh lol


----------



## big_jim_87

sniper83 said:


> I agree with you and i use more or less the same methods,i took a full year off of protein supps and didnt notice any difference i have however brought a shake a day in post work out just for recovery more than anything 1 a day keeps costs down and i feel that is the best time to use it.
> 
> can you get that diet up if you can please pal?


the thing is bud he said he has poor genetics then posts pics up of Mentzer and other guys from the 70's... if we all did what they did in the 70's we'd never have moved.on to the mass monsters we have to day and there would be no need for a 202 class or 212 class as that would be your biggest guys... he compares him self to Mentzer but Mentzer had some of the beat ever genetics and could eat less and still grow... he ain't Mentzer lol


----------



## big_jim_87

Dtlv74 said:


> This uis back to the main point of topic in this thread - namely that AAS users have a potential to utilise a far greater amount of protein/amino's for muscle protein synthesis than nattys.
> 
> The issue though is relative lack of research in respect of diet/AAS interactions... most of the best info out there in this area comes from the guys who have been doing it all for a while, and self experimenting and prepping others.
> 
> I don't think there is enough info about to be close to saying what kind of figure may be optimum for an AAS user, but I think one thing that is clear is that AAS users can benefit from a higher intake than non AAS users.


no one was saying 500g is the magic number... altho many are saying its not... but with 500g you'll not be falling short.

there is no spot on number imo as too many variables to take into account to give any generic number for any group of ppl...

off season is time to eat! get big cals in from every macro pro carb fat all high figures! play with it as you go to keep bf as low as you can

pre contest is time to get picky about figures but again there are no magic numbers here ether as no 2 ppl will run the same prep and no 2 ppl will react to the same prep in the same way...


----------



## dtlv

big_jim_87 said:


> no one was saying 500g is the magic number... altho many are saying its not... *but with 500g you'll not be falling short.*
> 
> there is no spot on number imo as too many variables to take into account to give any generic number for any group of ppl...
> 
> off season is time to eat! get big cals in from every macro pro carb fat all high figures! play with it as you go to keep bf as low as you can
> 
> pre contest is time to get picky about figures but again there are no magic numbers here ether as no 2 ppl will run the same prep and no 2 ppl will react to the same prep in the same way...


Yes exactly, without clear indication of what might be the optimum amount (which exactly as you say will vary due to individual differences and protocols) 500g seems a good coverall target.

The different ways in which AAS and soem other PEDs might alter the various limiting factors on muscle protein synthesis is what I'm trying to read up on at the moment... am still relatively clueless to be honest but it's a very interesting topic, and I'd say the most useful info right now comes from guys experimenting with AAS and these very high P intakes... the data if well taken is much more relevant than theories based upon interactions from non AAS protocols.


----------



## hackskii

Or, if ones protein intake compromises energy intake = fail.

Intensity in the gym means something.

Diet equals something.

Compromise equals something negative.

Again 500 is a number, much like doing 10 to 12 reps equal something, but no magic number.

If failure equates to something, so does stopping at a number also means something.

If nothing supports 500 grams for the general purpose and does not fit all, why pursue?

Why debate a non debatable number?

I still call BS.


----------



## dtlv

hackskii said:


> Or, if ones protein intake compromises energy intake = fail.
> 
> Intensity in the gym means something.
> 
> Diet equals something.
> 
> Compromise equals something negative.
> 
> Again 500 is a number, much like doing 10 to 12 reps equal something, but no magic number.
> 
> If failure equates to something, so does stopping at a number also means something.
> 
> If nothing supports 500 grams for the general purpose and does not fit all, why pursue?
> 
> Why debate a non debatable number?
> 
> I still call BS.


yes exactly, many factors.

I also feel that 500g is perhaps way more than needed for most athletes, but on the flip side one way to find an optimal figure by scientific method would be to start with a figure you know to be way in excess of what you need and to keep experimenting with less and less until you hit a point of significantly diminished results - that's kind of how I see all this in the greater scheme of bodybuilding knowledge and slowly unwrapping the AAS-protein question... as more and more people play around with different numbers eventually an optimum might become clearer as a pattern of results collectively builds up in bodybuilding lore.


----------



## big_jim_87

hackskii said:


> Or, if ones protein intake compromises energy intake = fail.
> 
> Intensity in the gym means something.
> 
> Diet equals something.
> 
> Compromise equals something negative.
> 
> Again 500 is a number, much like doing 10 to 12 reps equal something, but no magic number.
> 
> If failure equates to something, so does stopping at a number also means something.
> 
> If nothing supports 500 grams for the general purpose and does not fit all, why pursue?
> 
> Why debate a non debatable number?
> 
> I still call BS.


its a fail safe figure mate... that's all

in on no were near that right now.

and there is a magic number for rep range... that number is 7 lol

or 9... I like odd numbers


----------



## Yoshi

big_jim_87 said:


> so are you so also shhhh lol


Who's this Bigjim? You even train ?... Lol


----------



## hackskii

big_jim_87 said:


> I like odd


I like you too big Jim:lol:


----------



## big_jim_87

MacUK said:


> Who's this Bigjim? You even train ?... Lol


a ukm legend from back in the day baby! when the forum was at its best!


----------



## weeman

cant get much access to the net at the mo but after i posted last week etc i decided to put ar$Obolics method to the test,dropped my protein to barely over 100g a day,carbs were bare minimal and fats were prob around the 200g plus range from both sats and 'essential' fats,i started off at 239lbs,i sit here this morning at 229.5lbs,softer,smaller,flatter and certainly down in strength,my gear use did not change either btw,proves (yet again) all i need to know.

AnabOLic,i have 2 decdes of training experience under my belt and lets not even go into my rep on the prep front etc s its just repetitive and is falling on your def ears anyway,i have went thru lengthy periods where my diet has consisted of what you are advocating due to me being a lazy cvnt at times or varying other reasons,many people off here have met me at these times in real life and speculated their surprise at me looking less than impressive at those points,and equally measured impressed when they met me again later after i had resumed what i know WITHOUT DOUBT works rigt across the range,regardless of your genetic abilities,high protein,mod carbs,low to mod fats.

You are not an anomaly,if you respond to low prot and low carb but high fats then there is no scientific reason on this planet that will say you will not respond better to the other.

Do please stop quoting mother nature and mothers milk,you make it sound like your ignorant and clutching at straws,we were not ment to be large muscular lean men,we were ment to be 'efficient' in other words enough muscle to function and hunt but predominantly carry more fat for storage as fuel and to keep warm,no other reaosn,using 'mothers milk' etc and trying to compare what we do in this sport in any shape to what 'mother nature' intended is simply ludicrous.

As for your quotes on me,where di you see this pic of me as a 15 year old?? i posted up me as a 19 year old who had been training SINCE i was 15,the pic i posted was of me AFTER 4 years training and a cycle of gear (please read posts properly,it shines out that you dont rather a lot) so that in its own flyes in the face of what you want to proclaim about me.

I have 7.25 inch wrists and 9.25 inch ankles,on the small side,if you are gnr pull out that old chestnut of formula based on joint sizes as to how big your muscles can get (natty or otherwise) then really all hope is lost on you,i know maaaaaany men out there life long nattys who certainly render that chart as defunct.

Also had to bring up a point jim touched on,you keep mentioning yates high intensity low volume training,yates himself has stated many times since stopping comping that his training was far from low volume,there would be a very large amount of sets involved,its the actual 'work sets' involved that were low.

BTW training really is very simple,its certainly as simple as hit muscular failure and feed your body,you will grow,end of,its guys like yourselves who end up getting caught up in overcomplicated and overthinking things that usually by and large share the most mediocre and run of the mill physiques,your going to take that as a slate but i am just stating fact on what i see year in year out......

I will agree that most who post on this board and every other yes they usually do stand still,but i already mentioned the reasoning behind this,usually 99% of the cases are they dont have things as nailed as they claim to have it.


----------



## hackskii

Hey weeman, Bill Phillips suggest always tapering your protein if you are going to cut it out.

For instance guys that eat huge amounts of protein require that, once the jump off the body thinks it needs alot and robs it from muscle.

He has a nice little read on this I can probably dig it up how it is cycled up and down.

This is why some guys respond at first, then do not.


----------



## big_jim_87

not sure if I posted but my wrist is just over 7inches around the thickest part... small joints are actually better in bbing as it gives the illusion of bigger muscles and a better shape... big joints are better for power lifting

Lee Priest has tiny joints...


----------



## big_jim_87

anab0lic said:


> Wow.
> 
> 1. so your'e now on 200g of fat a day & 100g of protein... so that's 2200kcals and you wonder why you got smaller and weaker? Thats no where near enough calories to support a guy your size whos active and training intensely. You will have lost alot of bloat from the gycogen retention too... which will affect body-weight changes even further.... thats not muscle loss... it also takes a period of a good few weeks to fully adapt to this diet (certain metabolic adaptations need to take place.)
> 
> 2. Those are decent wrist and ankle measurements... you may not be serge olyvia, but a little extra girth in those areas goes along way in terms of how large you can potentially get.
> 
> 3. Complete and utter nonsense that you have natural friends who some how outdid Casey Butts natural genetic calculator... do you know what those calculations are based on? did you read my original post on it? Do you think that super fast digesting whey we have now and some super advanced training techniques have some how allowed your friends to outdo the pros of that era? If anything both training and nutrition has gone backwards since that era.... they may 'claim' to be natural though....just like layne norton 'swears' hes drug free...
> 
> 4. LOL you say I don't read posts properly....check back and read where i clarified what I mean regarding Dorians low volume routines..
> 
> 5. There is a lot of scientific reasoning as to why it works better.... but you are too stupid to even comprehend such things though it would seem.. or completely ignorant of its existence.
> 
> What's even more hilarious is you claimed originally to already 'know' that this way of eating doesn't work....because you'd done it all before.... clearly you hadnt.... pretty much proves you are full of sh1t.
> 
> Oh and two twins getting ready for a bodybuilding show... me giving training and diet advice to one.... you can do whatever the hell you want with yours... my twin will look better.


hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!


----------



## big_jim_87

Bri Bri Bri lol your too stupid to understand! hahahahahahahahahahahahaha!

Bri he is a better prep guy then you! hahahahahahahahahahah!

Bri Bri haha!


----------



## big_jim_87

ok ok i do have some thing to add haha.... hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!


----------



## big_jim_87

I can't get over that last post lol

ok so

Anab0locks- how many ppl have you preped?

Bri- you?

Anab0locks the fact that you have the nerve to say you could get some one to the stage in better shape Bri with out proving it just makes you look like the biggest (not literally of course) cvnt on the forum! not a good cvnt like me as im awesome and a cvnt your the bad type who should be shot!

how can you ever tel any one they are full of shyt after a statement like that! just another load of crap you have spouted on the forum that has no proof! complete bolox just like every other post you have made!

your approach will prob work to some degree and and will take Joe average from plain old Joe to some one who looks like a swimmer at best lol

there is a reason no ACTUAL bber will take on your approach and its cause its bolox!

what are your views on insulin?

its use both synthetic and natty product?

it is after all amongst the most powerful and anabolic compound known to man... how is your diet making the most of even natty produced insulin?

this is just one of many problems i see with your approach?


----------



## C.Hill

anab0lic said:


> .m
> 
> Oh and two twins getting ready for a bodybuilding show... me giving training and diet advice to one.... you can do whatever the hell you want with yours... my twin will look better.


lol your posts are great


----------



## weeman

anab0lic said:


> Wow.
> 
> 1. so your'e now on 200g of fat a day & 100g of protein... so that's 2200kcals and you wonder why you got smaller and weaker? Thats no where near enough calories to support a guy your size whos active and training intensely. You will have lost alot of bloat from the gycogen retention too... which will affect body-weight changes even further.... thats not muscle loss... it also takes a period of a good few weeks to fully adapt to this diet (certain metabolic adaptations need to take place.)
> 
> 2. Those are decent wrist and ankle measurements... you may not be serge olyvia, but a little extra girth in those areas goes along way in terms of how large you can potentially get.
> 
> 3. Complete and utter nonsense that you have natural friends who some how outdid Casey Butts natural genetic calculator... do you know what those calculations are based on? did you read my original post on it? Do you think that super fast digesting whey we have now and some super advanced training techniques have some how allowed your friends to outdo the pros of that era? If anything both training and nutrition has gone backwards since that era.... they may 'claim' to be natural though....just like layne norton 'swears' hes drug free...
> 
> 4. LOL you say I don't read posts properly....check back and read where i clarified what I mean regarding Dorians low volume routines..
> 
> 5. There is a lot of scientific reasoning as to why it works better.... but you are too stupid to even comprehend such things though it would seem.. or completely ignorant of its existence.
> 
> What's even more hilarious is you claimed originally to already 'know' that this way of eating doesn't work....because you'd done it all before.... clearly you hadnt.... pretty much proves you are full of sh1t.
> 
> Oh and two twins getting ready for a bodybuilding show... me giving training and diet advice to one.... you can do whatever the hell you want with yours... my twin will look better.





big_jim_87 said:


> hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!


pretty much what jim said 

You know what anabolic your probably right,i probably am full of sh1te and know nothing mate,i bow down to your superior view and knowledge,how could one such as myself dare to question you.

You continue to do what you do and preach what you preach,i'll sit here gazing at my mantle heaving with countless trophies from competition,answer countless pm's,emails and txts each and every day based on my recognised success and knowledge gained within the sport,feel comfort in the sense of achievement i get from browsing thru the pages and photos of the countless i have helped to local and national success over the years due to my apparent ignorance and lack of knowledge i have in nutrition and understanding of applying it to competitive bodybuilding,you continue to stamp your feet in child like defiance and swerve every answer with something irrelevant to the vast majority on heres pursuit.

Hmmmm i wonder if likes of Rambod et al should perhaps apply your views to the likes of phil heath etc,with the response genetics the guy has got his life could be made so much easier................


----------



## Fatstuff

i enjoy this thread


----------



## Fatstuff

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grandiose_delusions

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissistic_personality_disorder

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisocial_personality_disorder

Which one? ^^ cant seem to put my finger exactly on it?


----------



## Yoshi

weeman said:


> pretty much what jim said
> 
> You know what anabolic your probably right,i probably am full of sh1te and know nothing mate,i bow down to your superior view and knowledge,how could one such as myself dare to question you.
> 
> You continue to do what you do and preach what you preach,i'll sit here gazing at my mantle heaving with countless trophies from competition,answer countless pm's,emails and txts each and every day based on my recognised success and knowledge gained within the sport,feel comfort in the sense of achievement i get from browsing thru the pages and photos of the countless i have helped to local and national success over the years due to my apparent ignorance and lack of knowledge i have in nutrition and understanding of applying it to competitive bodybuilding,you continue to stamp your feet in child like defiance and swerve every answer with something irrelevant to the vast majority on heres pursuit.
> 
> Hmmmm i wonder if likes of Rambod et al should perhaps apply your views to the likes of phil heath etc,with the response genetics the guy has got his life could be made so much easier................


And of course phill Heath could pretty much save 1000s of pounds on food..


----------



## big_jim_87

man I didn't sleep a wink last night... every time i started drifting off id remember a snippet of Anabolocks post and lol... the Mrs had the hump in the morning lol


----------



## Fatstuff

big_jim_87 said:


> man I didn't sleep a wink last night... every time i started drifting off id remember a snippet of Anabolocks post and lol... the Mrs had the hump in the morning lol


Look JIM face facts, you are still growing so u dont know what your talking about. If any of you are still growing, your clueless as he has reached his genetic potential. Have any of you???????? thought not


----------



## Mingster

I'm nearly 100 and I'm still growing. My potential is boundless


----------



## big_jim_87

Fatstuff said:


> Look JIM face facts, you are still growing so u dont know what your talking about. If any of you are still growing, your clueless as he has reached his genetic potential. Have any of you???????? thought not


lol

that was a funny post


----------



## big_jim_87

how many views has this thread had? im on taptalk and not sure what's what but I think it said 7k...

So 7,000 ppl have seen Anab0locks look like a minge! lol


----------



## Yoshi

big_jim_87 said:


> how many views has this thread had? im on taptalk and not sure what's what but I think it said 7k...
> 
> So 7,000 ppl have seen Anab0locks look like a minge! lol


6,500 of those views were from you keep coming back to the thread you tool...


----------



## GolfDelta

anab0lic said:


> Err am i supposed to be impressed by this? I do the same for a living fella.... have done for a few years now an I'm damn good at what I do... if any of the guys you have trained came to me id get them in better shape than you ever could, I'd bet my life on that.
> 
> Nice try though.
> 
> ciao


Who are you?Why do you have no pictures on your profile but just an avi which looks like that of an 85 year old ex bodybuilder who still does bicep curls?

Weeman is not afraid to say real name and everyone knows who he is,who the fvck are you?


----------



## JANIKvonD

GolfDelta said:


> Who are you?Why do you have no pictures on your profile but just an avi which looks like that of an 85 year old ex bodybuilder who still does bicep curls?
> 
> Weeman is not afraid to say real name and everyone knows who he is,who the fvck are you?


who the fuks weeman?


----------



## Yoshi

I can't believe this guy, Bri and jim are I twice the condition you are in and I've seen what bris clients look like and there in very good condition not only that but they always place well in shows, plus you never heard of gingers genetics I mean Bri and jim must be something about being ginger that makes you look in great shape not aas use and expert knowledge on nutrition


----------



## Yoshi

I mean serouisly this guy obv knows nothing...


----------



## Yoshi

anab0lic said:


> Mac you dont even look like you train.... and you are on steroids?


my condition is not very good I don't claim to be better then anyone apart form kenny ken... lol

I was about 10-11 stone back in dec due to shoulder injury i'm not 14-14.5 stone at round about 17-18% and considering my diet is poor at the moment and training is maybe few times a week, i'm pretty happy with that...


----------



## dtlv

I can't speak for anab0lics success because I have not heard from anyone he's prepped, but I do know a couple of people who have been prepped by bri, and I have seen amazing transformations in fairly short periods of time.

Have also stolen his ideas from time to time and benefited from them... Bri, Ausbuilt and Pscarb (as well a few others on here) all have such a track record of consistent success that I'd say to any aspiring competetive bodybuilder those are the guys to seek help from... I even happily tell people for contest prep to listen more to them than me, because quite frankly these guys are some of the best prep people around at the moment.

Not that this c0ck size matching of who is the best prep guy matters that much though... no one needs to prove anything as the public evidence and testamonials about who has prepped who speaks for itself.


----------



## GolfDelta

anab0lic said:


> Mac you dont even look like you train.... and you are on steroids?


I retract my last statement with regards to your pictures,if that is you in your avi then fair play you are in very good shape.


----------



## big_jim_87

anab0lic said:


> Err am i supposed to be impressed by this? I do the same for a living fella.... have done for a few years now an I'm damn good at what I do... if any of the guys you have trained came to me id get them in better shape than you ever could, I'd bet my life on that.
> 
> Nice try though.
> 
> ciao


who have you preped for a show?

Bri will have a list as long as your arm but again you state shyt like its a fact but no proof YET AGAIN! face it your a joke and any credibility you thought you had on the forum has gone due to your posts in this thread...

what's funny is you are clueless on both bbing and any the fact that you look like a massive (not literally) cvnt! its funny to a point but then its just cringe lol

prove a point or shut up! you are yet to prove any thing


----------



## The Big Dog

anab0lic said:


> Mac you dont even look like you train.... and you are on steroids?


Might want to think about upping your AI's dude. You starting to sound bitchy !


----------



## Yoshi

The Big Dog said:


> Might want to think about upping your AI's dude. You starting to sound bitchy !


I thought my condition was ok for a 16 year old...


----------



## big_jim_87

anab0lic said:


> Mac you dont even look like you train.... and you are on steroids?


this is irrelevant

prove some thing or shut up


----------



## The Big Dog

There's nothing wrong with a healthy debate but some people can't help going OTT & belittling someone's physique/work boils my ****!


----------



## GolfDelta

The Big Dog said:


> There's nothing wrong with a healthy debate but some people can't help going OTT & belittling someone's physique/work boils my ****!


I agree,tbh it's hard to have a healthy debate if either one of those involved refuses to take on anyone elses ideas/theories and is unwilling to admit that others may be right.


----------



## big_jim_87

GolfDelta said:


> I agree,tbh it's hard to have a healthy debate if either one of those involved refuses to take on anyone elses ideas/theories and is unwilling to admit that others may be right.


well bolox Im not gonna say Anab0locks maybe right as I know he is wrong...


----------



## Fatstuff

hes changed his avi, i sure hope its him as the ukm bullsh1t detection agency have solved similar cases in the past :lol:


----------



## Yoshi

who even knows thats a picture of him?


----------



## GolfDelta

big_jim_87 said:


> well bolox Im not gonna say Anab0locks maybe right as I know he is wrong...


I wasn't referring to you Jim I was talking about Anabol0ks narrow mind.


----------



## Yoshi

anab0lic said:


> Mac you dont even look like you train.... and you are on steroids?


Look at my avi then look at yours?

is there really much difference?


----------



## Fatstuff

MacUK said:


> Look at my avi then look at yours?
> 
> is there really much difference?


wow mac u have come a long way in your progress today


----------



## Yoshi

Fatstuff said:


> wow mac u have come a long way in your progress today


meet me in person and call bs?


----------



## Yoshi

anab0lic said:


> Yes


because that's obv you...


----------



## Fatstuff

well this thread has took a really silly turn , give yourselves a pat on the back.


----------



## big_jim_87

GolfDelta said:


> I wasn't referring to you Jim I was talking about Anabol0ks narrow mind.


lol okidoki I agree in that case! lol!


----------



## Yoshi

anab0lic said:


> been training at temple gym for a while now fella.


only person who looks like that in temple gym is Martin Burford.


----------



## big_jim_87

anab0lic said:


> I was doing the things 'weeman' was doing years ago.... my methods have long since evolved.


ok well thats proof enough for me

LOL! yet another post not proving a thing and avoiding facts

I should stop posting here as its not going any were as you take it round in circles but its so funny i can't stay out of this thread lol


----------



## Yoshi

big_jim_87 said:


> ok well thats proof enough for me
> 
> LOL! yet another post not proving a thing and avoiding facts
> 
> I should stop posting here as its not going any were as you take it round in circles but its so funny i can't stay out of this thread lol


this thread doesn't go round in circles... whos weeman?


----------



## ausbuilt

anab0lic said:


> I was doing the things 'weeman' was doing years ago.... my methods have long since evolved.


mate I'm older than the both of you most likely, and I would have to say I hope everyone's methods "evolve" with more knowlegde- except for AAS- nothing's changed since the late 60s!

At any rate, in the absence of directly applicable research, I dont think the answer is to resort to my skills are better than your skills. I would say there is evidence for a very high protein intake; likewise some have done very well on a more moderate intake. Like everything in BB, its up to the individual to pick an approach, try it out and compare against others.

As an example, i tried bodyopus before and made progress, but made better progress on BigAs diet with 500g protein. Not everyone will react like me. I also find i can take very high amounts of test without getting DHT sides like pimples/acne. Other people are my size and condition on less than 4g of test/week, and less than 500g protein/week, but thats what i've needed to get to my condition/size. Am I a hard gainer? maybe. Am I still achieving my goals? absolutely- maybe eating more protein and taking more gear than others- but plenty on this forum want more size but despite numerous cycles dont achieve their goals. Is it dose related with AAS? maybe. Is it lack of protein? maybe. Only way to know is increase one thing, see how you go, then increase the other....

Maybe 500g is to high for many, but i think many would benefit from at least trying for 350g+ protein as so many newbie diets i see are very protein deficient... and a number is something to aim for.


----------



## dtlv

Ok guys, back to topic please.

We've well established who thinks what of each other, lets not let the thread derail totally - please no more meaningless self adoration from the blue corner, and no more jibes back from the red corner.

Maybe people could just summarise their views on high protein intakes in respect of bulking, so as to bring it back to topic.

Personally I think for a natural protein doesn't need to be any higher than around 3g per kg bodyweight, but I also believe there is no detriment to going higher so long as enough fluids and minerals (high protein diets can impair mineral status, and also affect bone density without adequate mineral intake) are consumed either from supps or food sources.

There are actually a coupe of studies which suggest that natural testosterone levels are impaired when protein intake exceeds carbohydrate intake - am not totally convinced of the degree of effect but with the evidence out there this is worth consideration at the very least for naturals.

For PED users however I think there can be considerable advantage to much higher protein intakes, although there's no established magic number and even if there was it would probably vary between PED protocols anyway.


----------



## dtlv

ausbuilt said:


> mate I'm older than the both of you most likely, and I would have to say I hope everyone's methods "evolve" with more knowlegde- except for AAS- nothing's changed since the late 60s!
> 
> At any rate, in the absence of directly applicable research, I dont think the answer is to resort to my skills are better than your skills. I would say there is evidence for a very high protein intake; likewise some have done very well on a more moderate intake. Like everything in BB, its up to the individual to pick an approach, try it out and compare against others.
> 
> As an example, i tried bodyopus before and made progress, but made better progress on BigAs diet with 500g protein. Not everyone will react like me. I also find i can take very high amounts of test without getting DHT sides like pimples/acne. Other people are my size and condition on less than 4g of test/week, and less than 500g protein/week, but thats what i've needed to get to my condition/size. Am I a hard gainer? maybe. Am I still achieving my goals? absolutely- maybe eating more protein and taking more gear than others- but plenty on this forum want more size but despite numerous cycles dont achieve their goals. Is it dose related with AAS? maybe. Is it lack of protein? maybe. Only way to know is increase one thing, see how you go, then increase the other....
> 
> Maybe 500g is to high for many, but i think many would benefit from at least trying for 350g+ protein as so many newbie diets i see are very protein deficient... and a number is something to aim for.


Nice post Aus, thread has been missing your input


----------



## Yoshi

Dtlv74 said:


> Ok guys, back to topic please.
> 
> We've well established who thinks what of each other, lets not let the thread derail totally - please no more meaningless self adoration from the blue corner, and no more jibes back from the red corner.
> 
> Maybe people could just summarise their views on high protein intakes in respect of bulking, so as to bring it back to topic.
> 
> Personally I think for a natural protein doesn't need to be any higher than around 3g per kg bodyweight, but I also believe there is no detriment to going higher so long as enough fluids and minerals (high protein diets can impair mineral status, and also affect bone density without adequate mineral intake) are consumed either from supps or food sources.
> 
> There are actually a coupe of studies which suggest that natural testosterone levels are impaired when protein intake exceeds carbohydrate intake - am not totally convinced of the degree of effect but with the evidence out there this is worth consideration at the very least for naturals.
> 
> For PED users however I think there can be considerable advantage to much higher protein intakes, although there's no established magic number and even if there was it would probably vary between PED protocols anyway.


So you think you know what your talking about? :lol:

only joking mate!


----------



## Mingster

Well despite all the silliness that this thread has descended into I think I will continue to listen to the advice and ideas of others, balance this with the knowledge I've gained over the last 30 years or so of my lifting, try things out for myself, experiment and learn from those experiments with an open mind, continue to find what works best for me and then put that knowledge into practice.

Having an open mind is, imo, the most important factor towards progress....


----------



## Fatstuff

Mingster said:


> Well despite all the silliness that this thread has descended into I think I will continue to listen to the advice and ideas of others, balance this with the knowledge I've gained over the last 30 years or so of my lifting, try things out for myself, experiment and learn from those experiments with an open mind, continue to find what works best for me and then put that knowledge into practice.
> 
> Having an open mind is, imo, the most important factor towards progress....


Totally agree with this, if u dont try it u will never know, fcuk what the books say, pin ur ass and eat a load of dead animals and train as u fcukin well please and if that dont work, adjust it somewhat!


----------



## biglbs

anab0lic said:


> <--- cant reach back that far these days


I have that pic someplace,i think it was Dorian,i will call him later,he will like this:lol:


----------



## GolfDelta

Mingster said:


> Well despite all the silliness that this thread has descended into I think I will continue to listen to the advice and ideas of others, balance this with the knowledge I've gained over the last 30 years or so of my lifting, try things out for myself, experiment and learn from those experiments with an open mind, continue to find what works best for me and then put that knowledge into practice.
> 
> Having an open mind is, imo, the most important factor towards progress....


Couldn't have said it better myself.Nail.Head.Hammer.


----------



## BodyBuilding101

Aus eat 500g protein and looks like a monster, Weeman eats 500g protein and looks like a monster, Clubber eats 500g protein and looks like a monster, Big Jim eats 500g protein and looks like a monster, Mingster eats 500g protein and looks like a monster < anyone noticing a similarity?


----------



## big_jim_87

BodyBuilding101 said:


> Aus eat 500g protein and looks like a monster, Weeman eats 500g protein and looks like a monster, Clubber eats 500g protein and looks like a monster, Big Jim eats 500g protein and looks like a monster, Mingster eats 500g protein and looks like a monster < anyone noticing a similarity?


no i dnt... lol I have but nite atm lol

weeman said it was far too much... have you read this thread lol


----------



## BodyBuilding101

big_jim_87 said:


> no i dnt... lol I have but nite atm lol
> 
> weeman said it was far too much... have you read this thread lol


 :lol: yes and me and hacksi are just big boned and not fat


----------



## hackskii

BodyBuilding101 said:


> :lol: yes and me and hacksi are just big boned and not fat


I don't do shakes and there is no way in hell I could eat the equivalent of 14 chicken breasts in a day.

You know what makes me huge regardless of what I eat?

Steroids:lol:

True story.

I could get a years worth of growth in a 8 week cycle, probably more.


----------



## Fatstuff

hackskii said:


> I don't do shakes and there is no way in hell I could eat the equivalent of 14 chicken breasts in a day.
> 
> You know what makes me huge regardless of what I eat?
> 
> Steroids:lol:
> 
> True story.
> 
> I could get a years worth of growth in a 8 week cycle, probably more.


Yeah but ur a yank


----------



## hackskii

Fatstuff said:


> Yeah but ur a yank


I cant help it that I am pretty. :rolleye:

In a sexy way. :devil2:

I have circumcised penis pics to prove it. :lol:


----------



## Yoshi

hackskii said:


> I cant help it that I am pretty. :rolleye:
> 
> In a sexy way. :devil2:
> 
> I have circumcised penis pics to prove it. :lol:


pics in MA or bs... lol


----------



## Fatstuff

Soo..... Anyone else eat 500g protein, ate 470g yesterday.


----------



## Yoshi

Fatstuff said:


> Soo..... Anyone else eat 500g protein, ate 470g yesterday.


I eat max 350g... not wasting my money :whistling:


----------



## LunaticSamurai

I've had 534.000grams in 5 years, :lol:


----------



## Fatstuff

MacUK said:


> I eat max 350g... not wasting my money :whistling:


You will always be a pencil neck then lol


----------



## weeman

anab0lic said:


> I was doing the things 'weeman' was doing years ago.... my methods have long since evolved.





Dtlv74 said:


> Ok guys, back to topic please.
> 
> We've well established who thinks what of each other, lets not let the thread derail totally - please no more meaningless self adoration from the blue corner, and no more jibes back from the red corner.
> 
> Maybe people could just summarise their views on high protein intakes in respect of bulking, so as to bring it back to topic.
> 
> Personally I think for a natural protein doesn't need to be any higher than around 3g per kg bodyweight, but I also believe there is no detriment to going higher so long as enough fluids and minerals (high protein diets can impair mineral status, and also affect bone density without adequate mineral intake) are consumed either from supps or food sources.
> 
> There are actually a coupe of studies which suggest that natural testosterone levels are impaired when protein intake exceeds carbohydrate intake - am not totally convinced of the degree of effect but with the evidence out there this is worth consideration at the very least for naturals.
> 
> For PED users however I think there can be considerable advantage to much higher protein intakes, although there's no established magic number and even if there was it would probably vary between PED protocols anyway.


out of respect to you Det i'll refrain from commenting further on him then,i did have a little rant about him during recording the TM podcast last night tho,dont know if the boss will edit out or remain in lol

end of the day theres nothing like proof,theres more than enough proving my side of the arguement running around this forum alone never mind elsewhere,will leave it there as its like shouting at the moon with some people.



big_jim_87 said:


> no i dnt... lol I have but nite atm lol
> 
> weeman said it was far too much... have you read this thread lol


yep jim is right,i generaly hover around the 350g prot mark,when dieting for last show it was about 370g,1.8g per lb based on lean bodyweight guestimate at the time.


----------



## Fatstuff

Lol I'll have to listen out for that haha


----------



## BodyBuilding101

weeman said:


> yep jim is right,i generaly hover around the 350g prot mark,when dieting for last show it was about 370g,1.8g per lb based on lean bodyweight guestimate at the time.


Sorry Bri, what i was getting at was that those who were on a high protein intake were the most muscular etc....heck you know my body comp [which is very bad compared to the guys i mentioned in my post] and im on close to 300g-ish mark and im not even taking it seriously :innocent:


----------



## hackskii

MacUK said:


> pics in MA or bs... lol


I would post pics in the MA but beings that I have been on 500 grans of protein a day I now have ED. :lol:

Just kiddin.....

I am guessing it is not common for you guys to get circumcised?

I am glad they lopped off some of my length, would be sad for the ladies if they didn't:gun_bandana: :death:


----------



## Guest

hackskii said:


> I would post pics in the MA but beings that I have been on 500 grans of protein a day I now have ED. :lol:
> 
> Just kiddin.....
> 
> I am guessing it is not common for you guys to get circumcised?


nope, it even got banned in germany recently.

i'd be ****ed if i had some chopped off, apparently its less sensitive for you, though how anyone can know I don't know


----------



## Mingster

I would lose too much weight if I got circumcised. I'd have to drop a weight category:whistling:


----------



## Andy Dee

BodyBuilding101 said:


> Aus eat 500g protein and looks like a monster, Weeman eats 500g protein and looks like a monster, Clubber eats 500g protein and looks like a monster, Big Jim eats 500g protein and looks like a monster, Mingster eats 500g protein and looks like a monster < anyone noticing a similarity?


one of them can also press 32 plates on a leg press because ive still got the video of it and it still gives me a boner now.


----------



## hackskii

Mingster said:


> I would lose too much weight if I got circumcised. I'd have to drop a weight category:whistling:


You guys are too funny:lol:

It goes from a serious discussion, to my willy is bigger than your willy, to my willy needs to be put in the MA, to my willy is a monster willy, then will go back to why my willy is not growing till I add more protein. :lol:


----------



## Mingster

hackskii said:


> You guys are too funny:lol:
> 
> It goes from a serious discussion, to my willy is bigger than your willy, to my willy needs to be put in the MA, to my willy is a monster willy, then will go back to why my willy is not growing till I add more protein. :lol:


Hey Hacks, that 110kg weight category was a huge thing back when I was a lad. Sometimes there were only 3 competitors in that category. If you made the weight you were certain of getting a trophy:lol: :lol:


----------



## Andy Dee

hackskii said:


> my willy is bigger than your willy, to my willy needs to be put in the MA


Pics or I call ..... oh ...erm.... erm...yes.. nevemind  fftopic:


----------



## hackskii

andysutils said:


> Pics or I call ..... oh ...erm.... erm...yes.. nevemind  fftopic:


I aint havin no dudes pull off to my cut bits:lol:


----------



## ausbuilt

andysutils said:


> Pics or I call ..... oh ...erm.... erm...yes.. nevemind  fftopic:


no **** :001_tt2:



hackskii said:


> I aint havin no dudes pull off to my cut bits:lol:


are you the same religion as sammy davis jnr? :lol:


----------



## hackskii

No, Sammy was a Jew, I am a Taoist Christian:lol:


----------



## ausbuilt

hackskii said:


> No, Sammy was a Jew, I am a Taoist Christian:lol:


i didnt know taosits did the chop! LOL

don't know about the USA, but in Oz inthe late 60s/early 70s I don't think they let a baby out of the hospital without the chop; my generation i think where just about all cut- in fact girls/women of my age back in the 80s often wouldnt sleep with non-cut guy as it was so unusual! LOL


----------



## hackskii

Generally speaking the middle class and upper class got chopped, the poor did not.

Many Blacks and Mexicans were not cut, and almost every white man was, or most of them anyway.

It is just the way it was back in the 50's and 60's, and although it is a religious thing, most did it for a cleanliness thing.

I hear cervical cancer is lowest in the world in Israel.

Strange how day 8 has the highest amount of vitamin K to clot which was their tradition suggested by God.

I mean, how did they know that day 8 had the best chance to not be as bloody?

I think my parents did it because it was thought to be the thing to do, now groups say it is inhumane and should be a choice of the child.

I don't know either way, I hear being covered offers more sensitivity, yet less chance of an infection due to cleanliness.


----------



## JANIKvonD

so.....

500g yeah? lol


----------



## Yoshi

hackskii said:


> Generally speaking the middle class and upper class got chopped, the poor did not.
> 
> Many Blacks and Mexicans were not cut, and almost every white man was, or most of them anyway.
> 
> It is just the way it was back in the 50's and 60's, and although it is a religious thing, most did it for a cleanliness thing.
> 
> I hear cervical cancer is lowest in the world in Israel.
> 
> Strange how day 8 has the highest amount of vitamin K to clot which was their tradition suggested by God.
> 
> I mean, how did they know that day 8 had the best chance to not be as bloody?
> 
> I think my parents did it because it was thought to be the thing to do, now groups say it is inhumane and should be a choice of the child.
> 
> I don't know either way, I hear being covered offers more sensitivity, yet less chance of an infection due to cleanliness.


Scott is this not off topic... This is warning next you will receive a weeks ban for having so much knowledge, it's not welcome here lol


----------



## Fatstuff

Worst problem about 'bulking' lol is that I am forced to poo at work whereas I can usually hang on till I get home but now I have to do both 

That's on topic kinda lol


----------



## JANIKvonD

Fatstuff said:


> Worst problem about 'bulking' lol is that I am forced to poo at work whereas I can usually hang on till I get home but now I have to do both
> 
> That's on topic kinda lol


u one of these cvnts who cant sh!t in public toilets & need to get a taxi home on a night out cos ur too scared someone will walk in just as it hits the water 'plop' :lol:


----------



## ausbuilt

JANIKvonD said:


> u one of these cvnts who cant sh!t in public toilets & need to get a taxi home on a night out cos ur too scared someone will walk in just as it hits the water 'plop' :lol:


F**K that, I play "battleship" anywhere :lol:


----------



## Fatstuff

JANIKvonD said:


> u one of these cvnts who cant sh!t in public toilets & need to get a taxi home on a night out cos ur too scared someone will walk in just as it hits the water 'plop' :lol:


No, because on a night out I have Dutch courage lol


----------



## Fatstuff

And it's more of a 'plomp' sound


----------



## JANIKvonD

ausbuilt said:


> F**K that, I play "*battlesh!ts*" anywhere :lol:


u mean lol.

me too though :lol: altho atm mine seems to build up behind the first nugget....so its more like a nuclear bomb. no survivours, game over.


----------



## Rick89

Fatstuff said:


> Worst problem about 'bulking' lol is that I am forced to poo at work whereas I can usually hang on till I get home but now I have to do both
> 
> That's on topic kinda lol


are you in an office?/ if so count yourself lucky

try working as a stonemason in the welsh hills

ive done numerous sh!ts in the back of our van in buckets, in skips, woods, barns the lot lol

one site right out in the sticks we had a make**** shed/toilet and in winter the weather got so bad it took off haha

funny times


----------



## Fatstuff

Rick89 said:


> are you in an office?/ if so count yourself lucky
> 
> try working as a stonemason in the welsh hills
> 
> ive done numerous sh!ts in the back of our van in buckets, in skips, woods, barns the lot lol
> 
> one site right out in the sticks we had a make**** shed/toilet and in winter the weather got so bad it took off haha
> 
> funny times


Lol, no I'm not in a fcukin office haha


----------



## Fatstuff

Dirty Muslims ruin our bogs by standing on the seat and sh1tting all over the place! (this isn't racist btw when I say dirty Muslims I mean muslims that are dirty, not all Muslims are dirty before pc brigade jump on me)


----------



## Rick89

Fatstuff said:


> Lol, no I'm not in a fcukin office haha


haha what do you do mate

i find myself going for crap all day when bulking its the one thing i hate about bulking ha


----------



## JANIKvonD

Fatstuff said:


> Dirty Muslims ruin our bogs by standing on the seat and sh1tting all over the place! (this isn't racist btw when I say dirty Muslims I mean muslims that are dirty, not all Muslims are dirty before pc brigade jump on me)


----------



## squatthis

When did this thread turn from "who eats 500g of protein?" to "who sh!ts 5 x a day?"


----------



## JANIKvonD

squatthis said:


> When did this thread turn from "who eats 500g of protein?" to "who sh!ts 5 x a day?"


if u flick back a few pages you'll see sh!t was the general pattern once anab0lic got involved


----------



## hackskii

MacUK said:


> Scott is this not off topic... This is warning next you will receive a weeks ban for having so much knowledge, it's not welcome here lol


Very sorry sir, my apologies, it wont happen again kind sir, thank you for pointing out the obvious.

We all learn by our mistakes, thank you for helping me be a better person.



squatthis said:


> When did this thread turn from "who eats 500g of protein?" to "who sh!ts 5 x a day?"


Well, it started out as a debate, then it turned to penis stuff, then it turned to poo stuff, next it will get back on track with more penis stuff. :lol:


----------



## squatthis

Fatstuff said:


> Dirty Muslims ruin our bogs by standing on the seat and sh1tting all over the place! (this isn't racist btw when I say dirty Muslims I mean muslims that are dirty, not all Muslims are dirty before pc brigade jump on me)


----------



## JANIKvonD

squatthis said:


>


pmsl. more common a problem than i had originally thought


----------



## biglbs

Fats,who gives a 5hit m8? :lol:


----------



## Fatstuff

JANIKvonD said:


> pmsl. more common a problem than i had originally thought


U would be surprised mate lol


----------



## Fatstuff

biglbs said:


> Fats,who gives a 5hit m8? :lol:


Badumtshhh


----------



## hackskii

*Optimal protein dose after weight training is twenty grams*

If you take protein immediately after training to stimulate muscle tissue increase, the optimal dose is twenty grams. A higher intake only increases the breakdown of amino acids in the body, write sports scientists at McMaster University in Canada in a soon-to-be published article in the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition.

An increased concentration of amino acids in the body stimulates the growth of muscles, as does weight training. In the muscles these stimuli activate signalling proteins like mTOR, S6K1 and elF2B, and as a result the cells manufacture more muscle proteins.

Say then that after training you drink a protein shake ? milk, quark, soya or chicken ? to optimise your muscle growth, how much protein do you need? An obvious question, but not one that researchers have paid much attention to. Until now.

The Canadians got six students to train their leg muscles. They did four sets of eight to ten reps with the leg-press, leg-extension and leg-curl. The last sets they did to failure. Two days before the training the students got a standard diet with 1.4 g protein per kg bodyweight per day. Right after a training session the students got a protein shake. The amount of protein in the shake was ten, twenty, thirty or forty grams.

Four hours after the students had drunk the protein shake, the researchers measured the build up of muscle fibre and the amino acid metabolism. The graph below shows the effect of the shakes on the mixed-muscle fractional protein synthesis ? the muscle build-up.



The twenty-gram shake had the most effect. It increased the production of muscle fibre by 93 percent compared with a training session where no protein was consumed afterwards. A higher intake has hardly any extra effect.

The researchers also examined the manufacture of albumin in the liver. This protein is found in the blood and the body can use it as an extra source of amino acids if it needs to. The researchers had expected that an extra high protein intake might not stimulate extra manufacture of muscle protein, but that the protein might be stored in the form of albumin ? as a buffer you could say. But this was not the case, as you can see from the graph below.



Shakes containing more than twenty grams of protein do promote the burning of amino acids. The researchers discovered this by measuring the oxidation of the amino acid leucine in the blood of the test subjects.



"The point at which amino acid oxidation significantly increases reflects the level at which protein intake becomes excessive", the researchers write. "Suggestive of a nutrient excess, leucine oxidation in the present study was stimulated after ingestion of 20 and 40 g of protein. In addition, muscle and plasma albumin protein synthesis were maximally stimulated at 20 g of dietary protein, which suggests an upper limit for incorporation of amino into these protein pools had been reached."

We have a different theory. The body needs time to digest proteins. The more protein you consume, the longer the digestion process takes. The body?s amino acid requirement in the muscles is greatest during and immediately after a training session. The higher doses that the Canadians used needed more time to be digested and were given too late. If the Canadians had given their test subjects the protein before the training session, then they would have probably discovered that higher doses of protein do provide an extra anabolic stimulus.

Sources:

Am J Clin Nutr. 2008 Dec 3. [Epub ahead of print].

If this is the case, then 500 grams is way over the top.


----------



## Kennyken

hackskii said:


> *Optimal protein dose after weight training is twenty grams*
> 
> If you take protein immediately after training to stimulate muscle tissue increase, the optimal dose is twenty grams. A higher intake only increases the breakdown of amino acids in the body, write sports scientists at McMaster University in Canada in a soon-to-be published article in the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition.
> 
> An increased concentration of amino acids in the body stimulates the growth of muscles, as does weight training. In the muscles these stimuli activate signalling proteins like mTOR, S6K1 and elF2B, and as a result the cells manufacture more muscle proteins.
> 
> Say then that after training you drink a protein shake ? milk, quark, soya or chicken ? to optimise your muscle growth, how much protein do you need? An obvious question, but not one that researchers have paid much attention to. Until now.
> 
> The Canadians got six students to train their leg muscles. They did four sets of eight to ten reps with the leg-press, leg-extension and leg-curl. The last sets they did to failure. Two days before the training the students got a standard diet with 1.4 g protein per kg bodyweight per day. Right after a training session the students got a protein shake. The amount of protein in the shake was ten, twenty, thirty or forty grams.
> 
> Four hours after the students had drunk the protein shake, the researchers measured the build up of muscle fibre and the amino acid metabolism. The graph below shows the effect of the shakes on the mixed-muscle fractional protein synthesis ? the muscle build-up.
> 
> View attachment 89439
> 
> 
> The twenty-gram shake had the most effect. It increased the production of muscle fibre by 93 percent compared with a training session where no protein was consumed afterwards. A higher intake has hardly any extra effect.
> 
> The researchers also examined the manufacture of albumin in the liver. This protein is found in the blood and the body can use it as an extra source of amino acids if it needs to. The researchers had expected that an extra high protein intake might not stimulate extra manufacture of muscle protein, but that the protein might be stored in the form of albumin ? as a buffer you could say. But this was not the case, as you can see from the graph below.
> 
> View attachment 89441
> 
> 
> Shakes containing more than twenty grams of protein do promote the burning of amino acids. The researchers discovered this by measuring the oxidation of the amino acid leucine in the blood of the test subjects.
> 
> View attachment 89443
> 
> 
> "The point at which amino acid oxidation significantly increases reflects the level at which protein intake becomes excessive", the researchers write. "Suggestive of a nutrient excess, leucine oxidation in the present study was stimulated after ingestion of 20 and 40 g of protein. In addition, muscle and plasma albumin protein synthesis were maximally stimulated at 20 g of dietary protein, which suggests an upper limit for incorporation of amino into these protein pools had been reached."
> 
> We have a different theory. The body needs time to digest proteins. The more protein you consume, the longer the digestion process takes. The body?s amino acid requirement in the muscles is greatest during and immediately after a training session. The higher doses that the Canadians used needed more time to be digested and were given too late. If the Canadians had given their test subjects the protein before the training session, then they would have probably discovered that higher doses of protein do provide an extra anabolic stimulus.
> 
> Sources:
> 
> Am J Clin Nutr. 2008 Dec 3. [Epub ahead of print].
> 
> If this is the case, then 500 grams is way over the top.


I've always thought protein amounts listed on here are way too much.


----------



## Mingster

What about absorption throughout the day rather than post workout?


----------



## Conscript

That for a natty though, Would there be a difference in optimum absorption if using AAS/T3/Slin............?


----------



## dtlv

hackskii said:


> *Optimal protein dose after weight training is twenty grams*
> 
> If you take protein immediately after training to stimulate muscle tissue increase, the optimal dose is twenty grams. A higher intake only increases the breakdown of amino acids in the body, write sports scientists at McMaster University in Canada in a soon-to-be published article in the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition.
> 
> An increased concentration of amino acids in the body stimulates the growth of muscles, as does weight training. In the muscles these stimuli activate signalling proteins like mTOR, S6K1 and elF2B, and as a result the cells manufacture more muscle proteins.
> 
> Say then that after training you drink a protein shake ? milk, quark, soya or chicken ? to optimise your muscle growth, how much protein do you need? An obvious question, but not one that researchers have paid much attention to. Until now.
> 
> The Canadians got six students to train their leg muscles. They did four sets of eight to ten reps with the leg-press, leg-extension and leg-curl. The last sets they did to failure. Two days before the training the students got a standard diet with 1.4 g protein per kg bodyweight per day. Right after a training session the students got a protein shake. The amount of protein in the shake was ten, twenty, thirty or forty grams.
> 
> Four hours after the students had drunk the protein shake, the researchers measured the build up of muscle fibre and the amino acid metabolism. The graph below shows the effect of the shakes on the mixed-muscle fractional protein synthesis ? the muscle build-up.
> 
> View attachment 89439
> 
> 
> The twenty-gram shake had the most effect. It increased the production of muscle fibre by 93 percent compared with a training session where no protein was consumed afterwards. A higher intake has hardly any extra effect.
> 
> The researchers also examined the manufacture of albumin in the liver. This protein is found in the blood and the body can use it as an extra source of amino acids if it needs to. The researchers had expected that an extra high protein intake might not stimulate extra manufacture of muscle protein, but that the protein might be stored in the form of albumin ? as a buffer you could say. But this was not the case, as you can see from the graph below.
> 
> View attachment 89441
> 
> 
> Shakes containing more than twenty grams of protein do promote the burning of amino acids. The researchers discovered this by measuring the oxidation of the amino acid leucine in the blood of the test subjects.
> 
> View attachment 89443
> 
> 
> "The point at which amino acid oxidation significantly increases reflects the level at which protein intake becomes excessive", the researchers write. "Suggestive of a nutrient excess, leucine oxidation in the present study was stimulated after ingestion of 20 and 40 g of protein. In addition, muscle and plasma albumin protein synthesis were maximally stimulated at 20 g of dietary protein, which suggests an upper limit for incorporation of amino into these protein pools had been reached."
> 
> We have a different theory. The body needs time to digest proteins. The more protein you consume, the longer the digestion process takes. The body?s amino acid requirement in the muscles is greatest during and immediately after a training session. The higher doses that the Canadians used needed more time to be digested and were given too late. *If the Canadians had given their test subjects the protein before the training session, then they would have probably discovered that higher doses of protein do provide an extra anabolic stimulus.*
> 
> *
> *
> 
> Sources:
> 
> Am J Clin Nutr. 2008 Dec 3. [Epub ahead of print].
> 
> If this is the case, then 500 grams is way over the top.


in the case of the highlighted bit, it may not be that extra protein pre workout stimulates more MPS, but rather that there may be a greater MPS response than taking protein PWO:



> *Timing of amino acid-carbohydrate ingestion alters anabolic response of muscle to resistance exercise*
> 
> Kevin D. Tipton1,2, Blake B. Rasmussen1,2, Sharon L. Miller1,2, Steven E. Wolf1, Sharla K. Owens-Stovall1, Bart E. Petrini1, and Robert R. Wolfe1,2
> 
> + Author Affiliations
> 
> 1 Department of Surgery, University of Texas Medical Branch, and
> 
> 2 Metabolism Unit, Shriners Hospitals for Children, Galveston, Texas 77550
> 
> Submitted 5 September 2000. Accepted in final form 6 March 2001.
> 
> *Abstract*
> 
> The present study was designed to determine whether consumption of an oral essential amino acid-carbohydrate supplement (EAC) before exercise results in a greater anabolic response than supplementation after resistance exercise.
> 
> Six healthy human subjects participated in two trials in random order, PRE (EAC consumed immediately before exercise), and POST (EAC consumed immediately after exercise). A primed, continuous infusion ofL-[ring-2H5]phenylalanine, femoral arteriovenous catheterization, and muscle biopsies from the vastus lateralis were used to determine phenylalanine concentrations, enrichments, and net uptake across the leg.
> 
> Blood and muscle phenylalanine concentrations were increased by ?130% after drink consumption in both trials. Amino acid delivery to the leg was increased during exercise and remained elevated for the 2 h after exercise in both trials.
> 
> Delivery of amino acids (amino acid concentration times blood flow) was significantly greater in PRE than in POST during the exercise bout and in the 1st h after exercise (P < 0.05). Total net phenylalanine uptake across the leg was greater (P = 0.0002) during PRE (209 ± 42 mg) than during POST (81 ± 19). Phenylalanine disappearance rate, an indicator of muscle protein synthesis from blood amino acids, increased after EAC consumption in both trials.
> 
> These results indicate that the response of net muscle protein synthesis to consumption of an EAC solution immediately before resistance exercise is greater than that when the solution is consumed after exercise, primarily because of an increase in muscle protein synthesis as a result of increased delivery of amino acids to the leg.


Two quick comments - firstly these studies don't cover any physiological changes that might happen when you throw AAS into the mix (where more protein may be beneficial), and also they don't look at differences between individual amino acids or protein quality... and if you are talking a very high percentage EAA protein or even EAA's only it may actually be even less required for a natty... there are a few studies suggesting that only the EAA content of protein has any measurable effect upon muscle protein synthesis, and that NEAAs (which make up round half of whey, casein etc) don't contribute to or stimulate MPS, rather they are used for other metabolic processes and used in a high proportion for energy via deamination;



> *Essential amino acids are primarily responsible for the amino acid stimulation of muscle protein anabolism in healthy elderly adults*1,2,3
> 
> Elena Volpi, Hisamine Kobayashi, Melinda Sheffield-Moore, Bettina Mittendorfer, and Robert R Wolfe
> 
> + Author Affiliations
> 
> 1From the Departments of Internal Medicine (EV) and Surgery (HK, MS-M, and RRW), University of Texas Medical Branch, Galveston; the Shriners Hospital (EV, HK, MS-M, BM, and RRW), Galveston, TX; the Department of Medicine, University of Southern California, Los Angeles (EV); AminoScience Laboratories (HK), Ajinomoto Co, Inc, Kawasaki, Japan (HK); and the Department of Medicine, Washington University, St Louis (BM).
> 
> *Abstract*
> 
> *Background*: Nutritional supplementation may be used to treat muscle loss with aging (sarcopenia). However, if physical activity does not increase, the elderly tend to compensate for the increased energy delivered by the supplements with reduced food intake, which results in a calorie substitution rather than supplementation. Thus, an effective supplement should stimulate muscle anabolism more efficiently than food or common protein supplements. We have shown that balanced amino acids stimulate muscle protein anabolism in the elderly, but it is unknown whether all amino acids are necessary to achieve this effect.
> 
> *Objective*: We assessed whether nonessential amino acids are required in a nutritional supplement to stimulate muscle protein anabolism in the elderly.
> 
> *Design*: We compared the response of muscle protein metabolism to either 18 g essential amino acids (EAA group: n = 6, age 69 ± 2 y; x? ± SD) or 40 g balanced amino acids (18 g essential amino acids + 22 g nonessential amino acids, BAA group; n = 8, age 71 ± 2 y) given orally in small boluses every 10 min for 3 h to healthy elderly volunteers. Muscle protein metabolism was measured in the basal state and during amino acid administration via L-[ring-2H5]phenylalanine infusion, femoral arterial and venous catheterization, and muscle biopsies.
> 
> *Results*: Phenylalanine net balance (in nmol · min?1 · 100 mL leg volume?1) increased from the basal state (P < 0.01), with no differences between groups (BAA: from ?16 ± 5 to 16 ± 4; EAA: from ?18 ± 5 to 14 ± 13) because of an increase (P < 0.01) in muscle protein synthesis and no change in breakdown.
> 
> *Conclusion*: Essential amino acids are primarily responsible for the amino acid-induced stimulation of muscle protein anabolism in the elderly
> 
> http://www.ajcn.org/content/78/2/250.full


There is something called the refractory rate of proteins synthesis... very basically protein synthesis seems to be stimulated by a sudden spike of essential amino acids in the blood stream, and hits a maximum value when blood plasma EAA content is elevated to around 160% of the normal baseline value... going higher than this (in a natural) shows no additional effect to muscle protein synthesis, and infact there's even a time response in that if you raise and maintain plasma EAA levels at 160% baseline or above for longer than a certain period of time (is between 30 and 60 mins, I forget off the top of my head) after this time protein synthesis swirtches off and will no longer occur until plasma EEA levels have actually dropped back down and then been spiked again.

This makes the idea of several small spikes of high quality protein the most anabolic approach... however, maintaining muscle mass is not just about stimulating anabolism, it's also about limiting catabolism, and while having permanently elevated levels of plasma EAAs from consuming a boat load of protein may not be the most anabolic, it sure as hell is highly anti catabolic.

There are studies in the elderly that suggest that frequent smaller spikes of fast digesting high quality proteins (high percentage EAA content and leucine enriched) could be fractionally better for positive nitrogen balance than slow releases proteins or huge feeds of protein which elevate plasma EAAs all the time... but the elderly do respond differently to younger individuals due to problems with leucine retention.

Basically though in simple terms its about high quality protein and eating enough to stimulate anabolism and to protect against catabolism, and this doesn't require huge doses of protein in a natural.


----------



## Conscript

^ Gave me a semi that did


----------



## Fit4life

OMG Your loo must beg for mercy from concrete turds, doesnt it give you piles all that straining

kaza


----------



## Mingster

A banana a day keeps the straining at bay...


----------



## dtlv

Conscript said:


> ^ Gave me a semi that did


Glad to help with that mate... I think :huh: :lol:



Fit4life said:


> OMG Your loo must beg for mercy from concrete turds, doesnt it give you piles all that straining
> 
> kaza


High protein and high fat diets both do that to me... straining to pass a breeze block is enough of a reason not to go there as far as I'm concerned :crying:


----------



## Conscript

Dtlv74 said:


> Glad to help with that mate... I think :huh: :lol:
> 
> High protein and high fat diets both do that to me... straining to pass a breeze block is enough of a reason not to go there as far as I'm concerned :crying:


Knowledge is a very attractive quality in a man with abs!!


----------



## dtlv

Conscript said:


> Knowledge is a very attractive quality in a man with abs!!


LMAO :lol: :lol:

If you've been angling for a rep you've just got lucky


----------



## Conscript

Dtlv74 said:


> LMAO :lol: :lol:
> 
> If you've been angling for a rep you've just got lucky


First I had in weeks! :bounce:


----------



## hackskii

My bro sent me this, it is a copy and paste:

Whey Protein Absorption - A review on the rate of protein absorption published in 2006 in the International Journal of Sport Nutrition and Exercise Metabolism reported that whey protein isolate absorbs at a rate of about 8g/hour. This is in large part due to the fact that whey is not broken down into small enough peptides by our body's natural enzymes in time to be absorbed.

Couple that with the fact that the window of opportunity for whey protein to be absorbed is 1.5 hours, your body at maximum will be able to absorb 12 grams of whey protein from a single serving.

Kind of makes those 40g whey protein shakes seem foolish, doesn't it? Well, that's because they are.

Simply put, whey protein passes through the system far too rapidly to be adequately absorbed, leaving the majority of your protein shake wasted...literally.

2. Insulin Release Associated With Whey - Which of the two items below cause a greater spike in insulin?

a) White Bread

B) Whey Protein

Well, as you can probably guess, if you chose the horrendous, high glycemic, void-of-all-nutrition white bread, you'd be 100%...WRONG.

That's right, a 2012 study published in Nutrition & Metabolism identified that the specific amino acids in whey protein stimulate beta cells to secrete more insulin than a similar amount of carbohydrate from white bread.

In the presence of insulin, fat burning essentially stops.

This makes a whey-protein-only supplement a big-time no-no for evening use, especially pre-bedtime when avoiding spikes in insulin are paramount as metabolism is already slowing down in preparation for its normal, much slower sleep rhythm.

The truth is, whey protein simply isn't an ideal protein to use at any other time other than immediately following exercise, and even then the amount you're able to absorb on a per serving basis is extremely limited.


----------



## Guest

hackskii said:


> My bro sent me this, it is a copy and paste:
> 
> Whey Protein Absorption - A review on the rate of protein absorption published in 2006 in the International Journal of Sport Nutrition and Exercise Metabolism reported that whey protein isolate absorbs at a rate of about 8g/hour. This is in large part due to the fact that whey is not broken down into small enough peptides by our body's natural enzymes in time to be absorbed.
> 
> Couple that with the fact that the window of opportunity for whey protein to be absorbed is 1.5 hours, your body at maximum will be able to absorb 12 grams of whey protein from a single serving.
> 
> Kind of makes those 40g whey protein shakes seem foolish, doesn't it? Well, that's because they are.
> 
> Simply put, whey protein passes through the system far too rapidly to be adequately absorbed.


lol this is total, utter, rubbish, loads of stuff out there showing otherwise.

yes it's absorbed at 8g an hour or there abouts but unless you poo it out 90 mins later you'll absorb more than 12g of the whey


----------



## Ukmeathead

FrankDangerMaus said:


> lol this is total, utter, rubbish, loads of stuff out there showing otherwise.
> 
> yes it's absorbed at 8g an hour or there abouts but unless you poo it out 90 mins later you'll absorb more than 12g of the whey


Show us some studies from non profitable research? I'm too lazy to look my self.


----------



## zak007

bump this thread for more info


----------



## baggsy1436114680

Rq355 said:


> bump this thread for more info


lol isnt 34 pages enough


----------



## Team1

To sum up the thread, @Weeman and I covered it on the T-Muscle radio show. Anabolic high fat fan boy got a mention :thumbup:


----------



## big_jim_87

Team1 said:


> To sum up the thread, @Weeman and I covered it on the T-Muscle radio show. Anabolic high fat fan boy got a mention :thumbup:


@ some one dnt work er buddy


----------



## hackskii

Team1 said:


> To sum up the thread, @Weeman and I covered it on the T-Muscle radio show. Anabolic high fat fan boy got a mention :thumbup:


Can I get a link so I can hear it?

I think I listened to one of them but found it kind of hard to understand the heavy accent.

Was it Simon doing the interviewing the first couple of the TM pod casts?

They do seem a bit long.


----------



## Fatstuff

Had a little listen to the podcast lol, anaerobic got his mention


----------



## hackskii

Fatstuff said:


> Had a little listen to the podcast lol, anaerobic got his mention


How far in, I just downloaded it but it is hours long.


----------



## Fatstuff

hackskii said:


> How far in, I just downloaded it but it is hours long.


last 10 mins m8


----------



## hackskii

Fatstuff said:


> last 10 mins m8


Ok, is Brian Weeman?

And who is the guy that starts it all off Simon?


----------



## Fatstuff

hackskii said:


> Ok, is Brian Weeman?
> 
> And who is the guy that starts it all off Simon?


i believe so yes

and... erm..., im guessing team1^^


----------



## biglbs

hackskii said:


> Can I get a link so I can hear it?
> 
> I think I listened to one of them but found it kind of hard to understand the heavy accent.
> 
> Was it Simon doing the interviewing the first couple of the TM pod casts?
> 
> They do seem a bit long.


We don't have accents here ya know,it's you lot,we all sound the same to us!


----------



## biglbs

hackskii said:


> Can I get a link so I can hear it?
> 
> I think I listened to one of them but found it kind of hard to understand the heavy accent.
> 
> Was it Simon doing the interviewing the first couple of the TM pod casts?
> 
> They do seem a bit long.


We don't have accents here ya know,it's you lot,we all sound the same to us!


----------



## hackskii

We have accents too.

If you go to the South, they talk really slow.

If you go to Louisiana they talk funny.

In California they tend to talk a bit faster.

So, us folks talk a bit different that you dudes, catch my drift? :lol:


----------



## dtlv

hackskii said:


> We have accents too.
> 
> If you go to the South, they talk really slow.
> 
> If you go to Louisiana they talk funny.
> 
> In California they tend to talk a bit faster.
> 
> So, us folks talk a bit different that you dudes, catch my drift? :lol:


When not too strong I love the southern accent on a woman... girls from the carolinas especially


----------



## biglbs

Dtlv74 said:


> When not too strong I love the southern accent on a woman... girls from the carolinas especially


OHHHHHHHHHH Carolina.....defo!!!!


----------



## hackskii

Dtlv74 said:


> When not too strong I love the southern accent on a woman... girls from the carolinas especially


I like Zar's accent, I also like Portuguese women speaking English too.

I heard one Portuguese woman speaking English and she was hot, I had to ask her what her accent was, I almost melted.


----------



## totalwar

Yeah any links to the podcast


----------



## hackskii

totalwar said:


> Yeah any links to the podcast


I got mine off of Apple store, it needed wifi to download it.


----------



## totalwar

hackskii said:


> I got mine off of Apple store, it needed wifi to download it.


Thanks mate


----------



## Team1

Yeh the cvnt who sounds liek he has a mouth full of marbles is me, had man-flu which didnt help. got a few issues with acoustics to sort out to make it more professional

Got some good guests coming up...some top UK prep guys :thumb:


----------



## hackskii

Team1 said:


> Yeh the cvnt who sounds liek he has a mouth full of marbles is me, had man-flu which didnt help. got a few issues with acoustics to sort out to make it more professional
> 
> Got some good guests coming up...some top UK prep guys :thumb:


Wow, heavy accent you have there man.

I notice Paul Scarb is going to be on there, let us know so I can listen.

Dont you think shorter pod casts would be better?

I mean in stead of one being an hour and a half, you can have 2 of them for 45 minutes?

I love the idea, but I think it might be better if it had content laid out where specific topics can be discussed like grabbing a strong man and have a series of questions to ask about training, diet (macro %) supplements.

Or

Person that does contest preps and the dynamics of dieting and training and how this changes from off season to contest prep.

Then you can ask specific people to be on the pod cast and have all the questions laid out, let them talk, when it gets a bit slow toss a question out and when it is done, its done.

Could be 30 minutes or more, or less, once all the information is out there it is finished with that person.

That way on the title you can have a specific topic that one could download and listen to.

You could really go crazy and have some kind of open mic where callers can call in and ask questions to the person that you are interviewing.

I did like the music and stuff, but it was a bit louder than the talker, just pointing that out.

I do like the concept and that is pretty cutting edge if you ask me.

Love the idea really.

The more exposure, the better the guest list.


----------



## Team1

hackskii said:


> Wow, heavy accent you have there man.
> 
> I notice Paul Scarb is going to be on there, let us know so I can listen.
> 
> Dont you think shorter pod casts would be better?
> 
> I mean in stead of one being an hour and a half, you can have 2 of them for 45 minutes?
> 
> I love the idea, but I think it might be better if it had content laid out where specific topics can be discussed like grabbing a strong man and have a series of questions to ask about training, diet (macro %) supplements.
> 
> Or
> 
> Person that does contest preps and the dynamics of dieting and training and how this changes from off season to contest prep.
> 
> Then you can ask specific people to be on the pod cast and have all the questions laid out, let them talk, when it gets a bit slow toss a question out and when it is done, its done.
> 
> Could be 30 minutes or more, or less, once all the information is out there it is finished with that person.
> 
> That way on the title you can have a specific topic that one could download and listen to.
> 
> You could really go crazy and have some kind of open mic where callers can call in and ask questions to the person that you are interviewing.
> 
> I did like the music and stuff, but it was a bit louder than the talker, just pointing that out.
> 
> I do like the concept and that is pretty cutting edge if you ask me.
> 
> Love the idea really.
> 
> The more exposure, the better the guest list.


Thanks mate. We have thought about the timing and decided to go with the longer shows but agree on being more specific. Next show is going to feature some of the UK's best prep guys and centre on that theme. Paul agreed to be one of those guys. He deserves slot of credit for the amount of folk he has had on the stage under his wing. A couple of other well known UK names lined up

Working on improving the sound quality. Got a bit of sound proofing to improve the speaking sound quality as its a bit airy so plan to keep making it better and fix the acoustics

Cheers


----------



## biglbs

anab0lic said:


> You guys still wasting all your money on 300+g of protein?


I thought you had died,oh well:innocent:


----------



## Fatstuff

anab0lic said:


> You guys still wasting all your money on 300+g of protein?


U still claiming that u have hit your genetic limits ?


----------



## biglbs

Fatstuff said:


> U still claiming that u have hit your genetic limits ?


Needs a bit of protein if you ask me....


----------



## Kennyken

anab0lic said:


> You guys still wasting all your money on 300+g of protein?


How much do you recommend then mate?


----------



## Huntingground

anab0lic said:


> You guys still wasting all your money on 300+g of protein?


Any pics of the body you have built on 250g protein a day. Also what are your lifts?

I always eat 400+ and sometimes 500+g of protein a day.

Training for 2.5 years, 19st 6lbs with some abs, lifts above avi.

Pics and lifts please


----------



## Mingster

Well, I've been on 500g of protein for some time now and I'm making the best gains I have made in a long time. Shame it's not possible in theory...


----------



## Huntingground

Pics or norelative.

Anyhow, pics of you. Why do you always swerve the question? I think I know the answer:-

Pencil Neck. :thumb:


----------



## Huntingground

anab0lic said:


> Your weight and lifts mean nothing.... I have a relative that can outlift you and carrys more muscle mass than you and doesnt even lift at all....


You have a relative that doesn't lift at all and can DL 270KG.  :lol: :w00t:

Absolute quality, keep them coming. Any proof at all? I will post up a Youtube vid if you will of your fictional "relative who doesn't lift" DLing 270KG!!

Nopics from you, novids/nopics of fictional relative is what is going to happen here.

Pencil Neck.


----------



## Kennyken

anab0lic said:


> You don't need anymore than 0.6-1g per lb of LEAN BODY MASS.
> 
> Think about how slow muscle growth actually occurs... even when using gear and perfect training its still a very slow gradual process.... and thus doesnt require anywhere near some of the numbers being thrown around this thread to support that daily small amount of growth. Think about how much protein is within a lb of muscle mass, now think about how long it takes to build a lb of muscle mass.... i can tell you now you wont be gaining that weekly even with steroids in the mix.... sure would be nice to build 50lbs of muscle is a year but it just doesnt happen.


How would this affect calories and carbs etc.

What rule would you give to work out macros?


----------



## Huntingground

anab0lic, I'll be at Genesis gym on 6th October for the Novice PL'ing event. I won't be competing as I plan to start next year, this will be a recce. I'll be having a workout beforehand. You can join me if you like and prove the size and power you have built up on less than 250g protein a day.


----------



## Ginger Ben

Kennyken said:


> How would this affect calories and carbs etc.
> 
> What rule would you give to work out macros?


Don't worry about it Kenny he talks drivel and can't (won't) back any of it up.


----------



## hackskii

I don't eat more than 200 grams a day myself, probably more like 180, and I am 225 pounds.

I don't like prioritizing one macro over the others, they all are important, work, lifestyle, and training will tweak some of these %'s of macros anyway.

No doubt the 500 gram guys are having much of that turn to fuel, and we all know this is the least efficient macro for fuel.

Lets keep this civil guys, no name calling please.


----------



## Mingster

anab0lic said:


> Prove that you couldnt of gotten to where you are now on 200g?
> 
> Bro... i did the whole massive protein intake thing for YEARS.... i litrally must have gone about 3-4 years where there wasnt a single day I didnt eat under about 350g of protein...because I was so paranoid that if I didnt get that much all my workouts would be for nothing and i wouldnt be gaining optimally or id even go backwards... I could build a fcking castle out of the amount of protein powder tubs IVe been through and contract 50 strippers and pole dancers for the next 20 years to occupy it with all the money i spent on chicken breasts etc and have me a fcuking protein powder tub castle strip joint LOL.... If it really worked better don't you think id still be eating that way?


So it took you 4 years to discover something didn't work for you?

Interesting...


----------



## Mingster

anab0lic said:


> Seems you still havent figured things out and you have been lifiting how many decades now?


I've achieved quite a bit as it happens young man. I'm very content.


----------



## Fatstuff

lol - you have lost all credibility completely now anabolic, you have a relative that doesnt even lift but can put up bigger numbers than HG? i sincerely doubt.... in fact i KNOW that is a lie! So why would we believe you on everything else. That comment is the single most absurd one u have came out with!


----------



## zack amin

this started as a good thread, kinda dead now guys


----------



## dtlv

Look this tit for tat isn't achieving anything... 'what if's' don't prove anything, and far too many unknowns in the equation

It's well established (or as well as it can be; the total accumulated knowledge on protein needs for athletes is by no means enough for a complete picture) that for a natural it's unlikely that protein beyond a moderate level will achieve anything extra... but when you throw AAS and PEDs into the picture much less is known and indeed there is a lot of good rationale behind the idea of increasing protein intake considerably.

If anyone is interested a good review of protein needs for athletes by Kevin Tipton (one of the top guys on sports nutrition) is here (but note this applies to natties and may not be true for assisted athletes) - http://journals.cambridge.org/download.php?file=%2F8400_3A293EDFFC42A12037F8141552EA5CE2_journals__PNS_PNS70_02_S0029665111000024a.pdf&cover=Y&code=379122f7c80e8748a467b20ce538f628

EDIT: if the link doesn't work (the server for cambridge journals is pretty unreliable) I can send the pdf if people want to pm me their email.


----------



## Mingster

anab0lic said:


> could have achieved the same with 1/2 the protein intake and calories needs coming from elsewhere.


Why don't you listen fella. It's a little sad really because I agree with a fair bit you say at times. One last time - I HAVE TRIED what you suggest and it DOESN'T WORK FOR ME. Please try to absorb this information as you seem to think that one size fits all for some strange reason.

You like to make statements with an element of truth without substantiating them with either fact nor evidence, then wait for the fish to bite. You manage to get a few poignant digs in initially then, when cornered, you play the genetics card or ignore the posts. You are reasonably clever for a troll, but a troll nonetheless.

You state you train competitive athletes but give no evidence. You claim a fine physique but are scared to post a picture. You could be anyone and anybody in reality. Recently you said you were tempted to post a pic but had lost condition over the past 3 weeks. Why not post a pic from 3 weeks ago then? Or 3 months? Or 3 years? You must have a picture of yourself from sometime. It doesn't have to be today lol.

Try entering a competition sometime. If you do well it will give some much needed validity to your opinions.


----------



## Irish Beast

Probably not far off some days recently. Eating 6 meals with 50-70g of protein in them. Also a couple of shakes as well

Good gains and epic farts


----------



## Huntingground

Fatstuff said:


> lol - you have lost all credibility completely now anabolic, you have a relative that doesnt even lift but can put up bigger numbers than HG? i sincerely doubt.... in fact i KNOW that is a lie! So why would we believe you on everything else. That comment is the single most absurd one u have came out with!


I know of nobody who can DL 270KG who don't train at all. Actually I don't think it is possible.


----------



## Huntingground

anab0lic said:


> The guy is a wardrobe, all of his side of the family are the same... christ even his 70 year old father is built like a brick ****-house.... stood next to him he would look tiny.... genetics are everything in bodybuilding/powerlifting.... if you havent figured that out yet you may be in for a lot of disappointment a few years down the line.
> 
> What kind of numbers could he put up now? Looking at his structure and the way hes built, hed likely bench 100kg first time in the gym and learning the movement patterns and getting all the relevant muscles to fire on all cylinders within a month or two would make most people on here look very very weak.... likewise with other lifts.... And this would be all natural too... load the guy up on anabolics and he would be a human forklift...
> 
> You see why 'look at my lifting numbers and look at my body weight is such a retarded worthless argument now? Would you go to my relative in the example above and see him as a 'guru' and mimic his diet and training etc because of where his current numbers are which are way ahead of yours... when all he has is a couple of months of newbie gains under his belt?.


This fictional relative gets better and better. Any more details of this fictional relative? Does he have supernatural powers as well?

 

Literally p1ssing myself about this.

anab0lic, a little advice for you : once in a hole stop digging.


----------



## Fatstuff

anab0lic said:


> The guy is a wardrobe, all of his side of the family are the same... christ even his 70 year old father is built like a brick ****-house.... stood next to him he would look tiny.... genetics are everything in bodybuilding/powerlifting.... if you havent figured that out yet you may be in for a lot of disappointment a few years down the line.
> 
> What kind of numbers could he put up now? Looking at his structure and the way hes built, hed likely bench 100kg first time in the gym and learning the movement patterns and getting all the relevant muscles to fire on all cylinders within a month or two would make most people on here look very very weak.... likewise with other lifts.... And this would be all natural too... load the guy up on anabolics and he would be a human forklift...
> 
> You see why 'look at my lifting numbers and look at my body weight is such a retarded worthless argument now? Would you go to my relative in the example above and see him as a 'guru' and mimic his diet and training etc because of where his current numbers are which are way ahead of yours... when all he has is a couple of months of newbie gains under his belt?.


We all realise that genetics plays a massive part in it BUT....... even with the worst genetics in the world, if u r claiming to know it all and to have the perfect formula of diet and training, ur physique WILL be impressive, but on the other side of the fence - if your relative has the best genetics in the world, they still couldnt outlift HG with zero training with them numbers, they are impressive and will have taken a lot of hard work is all im saying.

3


----------



## Ginger Ben

Sounds like only kryptonite could stop this chap lol


----------



## Huntingground

Imagine if this guy trained. Ronnie won 8 Olympias, the fictional relative would win 18 on the bounce with ease..................


----------



## Huntingground

As I have stated, meet me at Genesis gym and you can say what you want to my face.

You won't post pics.

You have no relative.

You won't come to Genesis Gym.

You Sir, are a bullsh1tter and a Pencil Neck.


----------



## Ginger Ben

anab0lic said:


> Yes, its guys like my relative who do win heavyweight BB shows or dominate powerlifting meets... but hed rather sit infront of the tv and drink beer and watch columbo sadly LOL
> 
> He had a brief spell of training at school when he was a kid and the coaches there at the time pretty much said to him you have genetics like Arnold and if you saw him youd see why LOL


What school did he go to where knowlegable strength training or bodybuilding coaches were on hand?? My PE teacher ate cheese rolls and had a big walrus moustache. Lol


----------



## biglbs

Morebollox :double ****:


----------



## baggsy1436114680

even if he does post a pic up and is in decent nick whats that going to prove that hes right? Everyone is different some stuff works for some and not for other's you have to experiment to find out what works best..


----------



## XRichHx

anab0lic said:


> Yes, its guys like my relative who do win heavyweight BB shows or dominate powerlifting meets... but hed rather sit infront of the tv and drink beer and watch columbo sadly LOL
> 
> He had a brief spell of training at school when he was a kid and the coaches there at the time pretty much said to him you have genetics like Arnold and if you saw him youd see why LOL












"I went down to supercarts the first day it opened right, I did a couple of laps then pulled over, the bloke that runs the place came over and was like 'hey no professionals" I took off my helmet and said "I'm not"so he said well you should be, take up formula 1. "


----------



## Ginger Ben

XRichHx said:


> "I went down to supercarts the first day it opened right, I did a couple of laps then pulled over, the bloke that runs the place came over and was like 'hey no professionals" I took off my helmet and said "I'm not"so he said well you should be, take up formula 1. "


Pmsl


----------



## biglbs

anab0lic said:


> The guy is a wardrobe, all of his side of the family are the same... christ even his 70 year old father is built like a brick ****-house.... stood next to him he would look tiny.... genetics are everything in bodybuilding/powerlifting.... if you havent figured that out yet you may be in for a lot of disappointment a few years down the line.
> 
> What kind of numbers could he put up now? Looking at his structure and the way hes built, hed likely bench 100kg first time in the gym and learning the movement patterns and getting all the relevant muscles to fire on all cylinders within a month or two would make most people on here look very very weak.... likewise with other lifts.... And this would be all natural too... load the guy up on anabolics and he would be a human forklift...
> 
> You see why 'look at my lifting numbers and look at my body weight is such a retarded worthless argument now? Would you go to my relative in the example above and see him as a 'guru' and mimic his diet and training etc because of where his current numbers are which are way ahead of yours... when all he has is a couple of months of newbie gains under his belt?.


----------



## Rick89

Huntingground said:


> I know of nobody who can DL 270KG who don't train at all. Actually I don't think it is possible.


good post

it possible but your talking andy bolton ( one in a million) who deadlifted 300kg or so if i recall rightly first time

anabolic get this relative of your training on on the test and tren he could be one of the strongest men in uk if not the worls


----------



## Huntingground

Rick89 said:


> good post
> 
> it possible but your talking andy bolton ( one in a million) who deadlifted 300kg or so if i recall rightly first time
> 
> anabolic get this relative of your training on on the test and tren he could be one of the strongest men in uk if not the worls


Rick89,

I never believe these type of stories, like urban myths which grow over years. Any articles etc where he states this? I know he is a freak anyhow  (Andy not anab0lic's relative  )


----------



## Rick89

Huntingground said:


> Rick89,
> 
> I never believe these type of stories, like urban myths which grow over years. Any articles etc where he states this? I know he is a freak anyhow  (Andy not anab0lic's relative  )


its just a said thing among the powerlifting world that ansy deadlifted something like 300 with no training and 330 while just 19

I for one fully believe it at the end of the day were talking the strongest of the strong here


----------



## Andy Dee

anab0lic said:


> could have achieved the same with 1/2 the protein intake and calories needs coming from elsewhere.


ok, with todays knowledge i dont dount anythings possible. So you state that nowhere near 500g is needed to achieve ones personal goals. fair point.

not being arragant just like to absorb 1 sh1t load of knowledge. So you've established what isnt needed to achive ones goals, excuse me for being to lazy to rea through 40 pages of god knows what, so the big question is......... what is needed.


----------



## Huntingground

Huntingground said:


> As I have stated, meet me at Genesis gym and you can say what you want to my face.
> 
> You won't post pics.
> 
> You have no relative.
> 
> You won't come to Genesis Gym.
> 
> You Sir, are a bullsh1tter and a Pencil Neck.


What a joker.


----------



## dtlv

andysutils said:


> ok, with todays knowledge i dont dount anythings possible. So you state that nowhere near 500g is needed to achieve ones personal goals. fair point.
> 
> not being arragant just like to absorb 1 sh1t load of knowledge. So you've established what isnt needed to achive ones goals, excuse me for being to lazy to rea through 40 pages of god knows what, so the big question is......... *what is needed.*


For a natty, no established advantage generally of going above 2.5g protein per 1kg bodyweight (roughly 1g per 1lb bodyweight) for building muscle, but higher intakes generally are associated with improved muscle retention in a calorie deficit and may be useful in other circumstances (unestablished).

Optimal protein intakes for assisted individuals are also unestablished but almost certainly higher in most cases.

That's the general clinical consensus.


----------



## Huntingground

anab0lic said:


> You really arnt the sharpest tool in the box are you....
> 
> Or do you just not get out a lot? Have you never come across guys who posses insane strength and size for a guy who is untrained?


How about popping along to Genesis Gym and stating these to my face? Fancy it. I do.

Nopics.

Norelative.

NoGenesisGym.


----------



## biglbs

anab0lic said:


> could have achieved the same with 1/2 the protein intake and calories needs coming from elsewhere.


PROVE IT POST PICS OR YOU NEVER EVEN LIFT.:laugh:


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## Huntingground

anab0lic said:


> Your weight and lifts mean nothing.... I have a relative that can outlift you and carrys more muscle mass than you and doesnt even lift at all....


This guy is gymgym mark 2. Does anybody know how to do a signature? This statement is going to be my signature. Absolute quality statement. What a bell.


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## marknorthumbria

anab0lic said:


> Yes, its guys like my relative who do win heavyweight BB shows or dominate powerlifting meets... but hed rather sit infront of the tv and drink beer and watch columbo sadly LOL
> 
> He had a brief spell of training at school when he was a kid and the coaches there at the time pretty much said to him you have genetics like Arnold and if you saw him youd see why LOL


What's his name surely someone on here will come across him or is he known as relative, like a hero.

Not cousin not first family not mums sisters son but relative

Pics or fat hairy pedo


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## J.Smith

I feel miles better since lowering my protein intake..saving me a fortune too...get no gas or anything anymore.

I've actually only been on 180g protein for last 7days...yes i am dieting too...granted im on tren but i've lost no strength or size and have dropped a good amount of weight this week...

When im back training normally i think 250 will be the max ill need....250g protein would be sufficient for most people tbh...assisted or not


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## dtlv

J.Smith said:


> I feel miles better since lowering my protein intake..saving me a fortune too...get no gas or anything anymore.
> 
> I've actually only been on 180g protein for last 7days...yes i am dieting too...granted im on tren but i've lost no strength or size and have dropped a good amount of weight this week...
> 
> When im back training normally i think 250 will be the max ill need....250g protein would be sufficient for most people tbh...assisted or not


Glad you've done this mate, I remember from our PM chat you were struggling a bit on the very high protein intake, and did play around a lot to try and make it work... that said others do seem to thrive on it, is simply about each person finding what works best for them.


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## Huntingground

Just checking my new signature


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## Huntingground

Just checking back over this epic thread which I call gymgym mk II and it looks as though anab0lic has deleted his account and all of his posts.

I was only asking for a pic  :thumb: :lol:


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## dtlv

Huntingground said:


> Just checking back over this epic thread which I call gymgym mk II and it looks as though anab0lic has deleted his account and all of his posts.
> 
> I was only asking for a pic  :thumb: :lol:


He got himself banned... he basically decided to start getting rude and offensive (rather than just arrogant) with people who have a successful track record of prepping bodybuilders using methods he didn't approve of.


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## Huntingground

Dtlv74, I'm afraid to say he has just joined TM 

He definitely came across as quite arrogant and that is why I challenged him. I respect others who respect me, if they don't, they I will not respect them at all.

Can't say it will be a loss. Funny when he tried to have an argument with Weeman (multiple prize winning BBer) - anab0lic wouldn't even post a pic 

Anyway, lets put this to bed now.


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## Nickthegreek

IGotTekkers said:


> Unless you are 250lb there is absolutely no need for 500 grams of protein. IMO


Even if you are 250 pounds 500g is excessive! You would be better off using the calories towards carbs if you want to put muscle on.


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## Sambuca

im eating quite a bit at the moment and its clogging me up rather than making me sh1t everywhere!


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## Huntingground

Nickthegreek said:


> Even if you are 250 pounds 500g is excessive! You would be better off using the calories towards carbs if you want to put muscle on.


That is your opinion. Have you read all of the thread?


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## dtlv

Huntingground said:


> Dtlv74, I'm afraid to say he has just joined TM
> 
> He definitely came across as quite arrogant and that is why I challenged him. I respect others who respect me, if they don't, they I will not respect them at all.
> 
> Can't say it will be a loss. Funny when he tried to have an argument with Weeman (multiple prize winning BBer) - anab0lic wouldn't even post a pic
> 
> Anyway, lets put this to bed now.


Haha, been waiting for him to appear over there... he also (again we were waiting for it) tried to set up a new account here imaginatively named anab0lic2. He's predictable if nothing else :lol:

His comments to weeman were hilarious and also said on another thread that Pscarb is useless as a prep coach and that all the guys he's prepped are failures (and naturally he could do better)... TM has a large percentage of contest level guys there, and they'll rip him one fast unless he posts with a very different attitude.


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## hackskii

Huntingground said:


> That is your opinion. Have you read all of the thread?


Well, the whole thread is based on opinion anyway.

No fact what so ever 500 grams a day of protein is any better than less that amount, and nothing supports this at all other than one's opinion anyway (BigA).


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## dtlv

Yep, it's a theoretical discussion more than anything with a lot of anecdotal comments and some science tossed into the mix.

One thing does seem clear that some people subjectively do seem to (or feel that they) get on well with high protein whilst others don't... scientifically no established need or benefit from a very high intake though, although arguably a possible benefit from higher intakes when taking AAS.

The only main potential health negative relates to mild acidosis associated with continually high levels of plasma amino acids, and due to a high protein diet (by definition) meaning carbs are proportionately low there is a resulting inadequate intake of alkaline minerals to balance this out (carb foods being the dietary source of most alkaline minerals)... end result is increased risk of osteoporosis and kidney stones in later life... but this can be offset by calcium and mineral supplements.


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## stone14

FrankDangerMaus said:


> I reckon £10 a day
> 
> 1.5 kg chicken breast - 330g - £7.50
> 
> 200g whey - £2


i cant remember when 1.5kg chicken was this cheap? lol


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## Goose

stone14 said:


> i cant remember when 1.5kg chicken was this cheap? lol


5kg from musclefood = £25

1kg = £5

1.5kg therefore £7.50

An no I dont work for them :lol: but I deserve something for that


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## hackskii

Dtlv74 said:


> Yep, it's a theoretical discussion more than anything with a lot of anecdotal comments and some science tossed into the mix.
> 
> One thing does seem clear that some people subjectively do seem to (or feel that they) get on well with high protein whilst others don't... scientifically no established need or benefit from a very high intake though, although arguably a possible benefit from higher intakes when taking AAS.
> 
> The only main potential health negative relates to mild acidosis associated with continually high levels of plasma amino acids, and due to a high protein diet (by definition) meaning carbs are proportionately low there is a resulting inadequate intake of alkaline minerals to balance this out (carb foods being the dietary source of most alkaline minerals)... end result is increased risk of osteoporosis and kidney stones in later life... but this can be offset by calcium and mineral supplements.


Would this not potentially compromise ATP stores, or potentially cause glycogen depletion in muscle to reduce total output in the gym thus compromising training intensity?


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## Mingster

hackskii said:


> Would this not potentially compromise ATP stores, or potentially cause glycogen depletion in muscle to reduce total output in the gym thus compromising training intensity?


Does this mean I could train harder?


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## sawyer1

i cam of keto diet and went onto zero carbs and 500grams of protein perday.... getting stronger and not gettting fatter! my question is would i fall into ketosis? would it be possible to drop body fat % while bulkiing?


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## Hotdog147

stone14 said:


> i cant remember when 1.5kg chicken was this cheap? lol


Then you need a new supplier! 

Epic thread btw....


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## dtlv

hackskii said:


> Would this not potentially compromise ATP stores, or potentially cause glycogen depletion in muscle to reduce total output in the gym thus compromising training intensity?


High protein? nah, all but two of the twenty two proteinogenic amino acids are glucogenic and are converted to liver glycogen when needed (absence of dietary carbohydrate)... this is why protein has to be restricted when doing keto diets, because the body creates the carbs it needs if it at all possibly can rather than allow ketosis... during high intensity activity in very low carb/high protein diets the body will upregulate the glucose-alanine cycle... basically the muscles release ammonia when they start being worked, through a few stages the ammonia gets converted to alainine, and then the alanine gets converted to glucose in the liver and the muscles are refulled with said glucose... along the way some other metabolites like alphaketoglutarate get recycled and the system works in a nice cycle that is very efficient.

Alanine is also a very common amino in all animal proteins, so in high protein/low carb diets a direct supply of alanine leads to ample glucose synthesis through upregulation of this cycle.

no, this biggest issue is the acidosis, which does need minerals to come from somewhere to balance against its effect on osteoclast activity and loss f calcium from the bones to buffer the blood acidity.


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## Malibu

Since upping my intake from 1g/lb to 1.5g/lb, I have found myself making alot more gains then usual and also feel fuller


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## dtlv

Malibu said:


> Since upping my intake from 1g/lb to 1.5g/lb, I have found myself making alot more gains then usual and also feel fuller


I think personally that's around the top limit though, and is what the (admittedly limited) science seems to suggest as being as high as you might need to go for resistance training... around 2.5g per kg bodyweight.

I find personally 2 - 2.5g/1kg as about as far as my digestive system tolerates... any more and I get issues (which I won't go into on an open forum :lol: )


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## hackskii

Dtlv74 said:


> High protein? nah, all but two of the twenty two proteinogenic amino acids are glucogenic and are converted to liver glycogen when needed (absence of dietary carbohydrate)... this is why protein has to be restricted when doing keto diets, because the body creates the carbs it needs if it at all possibly can rather than allow ketosis... during high intensity activity in very low carb/high protein diets the body will upregulate the glucose-alanine cycle... basically the muscles release ammonia when they start being worked, through a few stages the ammonia gets converted to alainine, and then the alanine gets converted to glucose in the liver and the muscles are refulled with said glucose... along the way some other metabolites like alphaketoglutarate get recycled and the system works in a nice cycle that is very efficient.
> 
> Alanine is also a very common amino in all animal proteins, so in high protein/low carb diets a direct supply of alanine leads to ample glucose synthesis through upregulation of this cycle.
> 
> no, this biggest issue is the acidosis, which does need minerals to come from somewhere to balance against its effect on osteoclast activity and loss f calcium from the bones to buffer the blood acidity.


So ATP stores are not affected here then?


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## Huntingground

Dtlv74 said:


> Haha, been waiting for him to appear over there... he also (again we were waiting for it) tried to set up a new account here imaginatively named anab0lic2. He's predictable if nothing else :lol:
> 
> His comments to weeman were hilarious and also said on another thread that Pscarb is useless as a prep coach and that all the guys he's prepped are failures (and naturally he could do better)... TM has a large percentage of contest level guys there, and they'll rip him one fast unless he posts with a very different attitude.


Haahaa, didn't see his comments to Paul, I bet he didn't take kindly to being lectured to like that and the ban stick was out pretty sharpish.

Life span on TM = 1-3 months


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## dtlv

Huntingground said:


> Haahaa, didn't see his comments to Paul, I bet he didn't take kindly to being lectured to like that and the ban stick was out pretty sharpish.
> 
> Life span on TM = 1-3 months


Paul didn't see it, it was another mod who saw it and just had enough... is one thing to argue passionately a controversial diet theory, but totally another to start dissing highly successful people of another approach in a very rude way... he over stepped the line between passion for a belief into delusional aggression :lol:

Yep, agree on the time frame.


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## dtlv

hackskii said:


> So ATP stores are not affected here then?


I can't think of any way off the top of my head... in ketosis yes, but not high protein.

There certainly is no advantage here though, and the process is certainly less efficient than simply lowering protein intake and eating some decent carbs.

Am not advocating this high protein stuff btw, no need for it IMO... just going through my understanding of the processes involved and their potential implications.


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## hackskii

Question for Det.

I know the liver can store between 70 and 100 grams of glycogen, and between 300 to 400 grams in muscle (more muscle more storage).

Ok, now that would be like 500 grams for a pretty big guy, or 2000 calories.

At 500 grams of protein a day that would be 2000 calories.

So, we know that some would get converted to glucose and get used for fuel and some storage.

If the carbs were not that heavy would not one be a bit low on glycogen stores?

Again Det, would not ATP stores be limited, as well as glycogen stores and thus possibly compromise anaerobic training when going to failure?


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## dtlv

hackskii said:


> Question for Det.
> 
> I know the liver can store between 70 and 100 grams of glycogen, and between 300 to 400 grams in muscle (more muscle more storage).
> 
> Ok, now that would be like 500 grams for a pretty big guy, or 2000 calories.
> 
> At 500 grams of protein a day that would be 2000 calories.
> 
> So, we know that some would get converted to glucose and get used for fuel and some storage.
> 
> If the carbs were not that heavy would not one be a bit low on glycogen stores?
> 
> Again Det, would not ATP stores be limited, as well as glycogen stores and thus possibly compromise anaerobic training when going to failure?


Well boss, I still think no problem... main reason is that while the liver and muscles can store that much glycogen, unless absolutely ramming the carbs in they rarely do, usually operating on at best half full stores... is only with massive carb refeeds or glycogen supercompensation feeds post workout that stores usually get that full in an athlete anyway... I know that even on fairly low carb diets circa 100g per day combined glycogen stores are still easily ample to fuel a decent duration of high intensity anaerobic activity... is only full ketosis where ATP replenishment becomes limited, but even here the effect is only really noticeable at absolute all out training... there is a study out there showing that a limited ADP-ATP cycle due to ketosis does not limit sub maximal training in elite athletes, even where their training is intense... we are really only looking at impeded performance at low rep max lifts. Since a high protein diet provides glucose, a superior fuel to ketones, I can't see a problem... unless I've missed something somewhere.


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## hackskii

Dtlv74 said:


> Well boss, I still think no problem... main reason is that while the liver and muscles can store that much glycogen, unless absolutely ramming the carbs in they rarely do, usually operating on at best half full stores... is only with massive carb refeeds or glycogen supercompensation feeds post workout that stores usually get that full in an athlete anyway... I know that even on fairly low carb diets circa 100g per day combined glycogen stores are still easily ample to fuel a decent duration of high intensity anaerobic activity... is only full ketosis where ATP replenishment becomes limited, but even here the effect is only really noticeable at absolute all out training... there is a study out there showing that a limited ADP-ATP cycle due to ketosis does not limit sub maximal training in elite athletes, even where their training is intense... we are really only looking at impeded performance at low rep max lifts. Since a high protein diet provides glucose, a superior fuel to ketones, I can't see a problem... unless I've missed something somewhere.


Ok, was just wondering.

Thanks for the boss thing. :lol:

I bow down to your superior brain mate.

I notice on a keto diet that I have same one rep max for lifts, but not the stamina, and do tend to crash at end of workout.


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## dtlv

hackskii said:


> Ok, was just wondering.
> 
> Thanks for the boss thing. :lol:
> 
> I bow down to your superior brain mate.
> 
> I notice on a keto diet that I have same one rep max for lifts, but not the stamina, and do tend to crash at end of workout.


But you are the boss Hacks 

Lol, I wouldn't bow down to my brain... I don't understand half of my own posts when I re-read them! :lol:

Yep I notice the same drop off at the end with keto, but only with a high volume training session (where I'm over reaching a bit)... I don't get on well with keto in numerous ways though, so am not the best person to comment on how it might affect other people (many others seem to like it a lot more than i do).


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## Al n

Ser said:


> Don't show too much sympathy....MWAHAHAHAAAA!!!!
> 
> *ps, my guns are awesome, get down and worship them or i'll spank ya!* :devil2:


Thats post of the year right there. I'm down and worshipping as we speak.


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