# How important are carbs?



## Smitch (Dec 29, 2008)

We all know how important protein intake is but how many carbs do we need to consume a day to continue to grow?

I'm 85 kgs and don't really seem to be growing much at the moment and i think it may be down to my low carb intake.


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## Wee G1436114539 (Oct 6, 2007)

Enough to bring plasma insulin level off the floor, that's all, and tbh even that can be done without carbs. After that it's just fuel.

If you are not gaining weight, and eating enough protein already, then yes, add in some more carbs.


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## Smitch (Dec 29, 2008)

I'm eating 250+ grammes of protein a day and prob about 60 grammes of carbs, think i'll have to get on the pasta!


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## martin brown (Dec 31, 2008)

Your eatin 60g of carbs a day and wondering why your not gaining weight???


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## B-GJOE (May 7, 2009)

To put the carb debate into perspective.

If you don't eat protein you die

If you don't eat fat you die

If you don't eat carbs you can live a full life!!


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## martin brown (Dec 31, 2008)

Just because something is not essential doesn't mean it's optimal to go without. That's a pretty retarded way of looking at it IMO 

There is no reason to cut a third of our energy intake out of our diets, especially when one is trying to grow muscle


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## G-man99 (Jul 15, 2008)

martin brown said:


> Your eatin 60g of carbs a day and wondering why your not gaining weight???


I eat that in 1 meal!!!


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## TH0R (Aug 15, 2007)

Well I've cut carbs recently down to the 200 mark, have noticed muscles not as full and

especially arms seem to have shrunk 

Coinciding with cardio so may not just be the carbs, incidentally I upped fats and protein

to compensate for calories

Have upped the carbs today as well.

60g carbs is very very low if your wanting to gain


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## warren (Jun 16, 2008)

i gain great with low carbs, but yet i havent went as low as 60g, i keep fats at 220g, protien at 300g and carbs at 145g non training days and 200g on training days. i dont see why carbs are essential , as long as you make up the needed energy with fats and make sure your protien is high enough.


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## warren (Jun 16, 2008)

tel3563 said:


> Well I've cut carbs recently down to the 200 mark, have noticed muscles not as full and
> 
> especially arms seem to have shrunk
> 
> ...


i read somewhere about 1g carbs holding 2 of water of somethin g like that so you wont be holding as muc water.


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## martin brown (Dec 31, 2008)

warren_1987 said:


> i gain great with low carbs, but yet i havent went as low as 60g, i keep fats at 220g, protien at 300g and carbs at 145g non training days and 200g on training days.* i dont see why carbs are essential* , as long as you make up the needed energy with fats and make sure your protien is high enough.


Firstly they are not essential - they just do you good that's all. It's not essential to train or eat well but it's not a good idea to just ignore them because they are not essential is it?

It always makes me laugh how quick people are to jump onto bandwagons and accelerate at a thousand miles an hour. Very high carbs diets in the Western worlds cause problems - that does mean we should reduce our intake of glucose-fructose syrup, highly processed sugars etc,, and eat BETTER sources of carbohydrates to avoid things like diabetes, obesity and heart disease etc

What it doesn't mean is that if less carbs can be better then zero carbs is the best!


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## TH0R (Aug 15, 2007)

warren_1987 said:


> i read somewhere about 1g carbs holding 2 of water of somethin g like that so you wont be holding as muc water.


Thats a fair point, although it also depends on other things such as sodium, and

the fact that i've increased protein, which also holds water, will, or should mean

to a lesser degree.

Would explain the shrinking fecking arms though:rolleyes:

:beer:


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## BigDom86 (Jul 27, 2008)

ive always ate high carbs. prob eat about 300g uncooked rice a day, and maybe 100g or 200g of potatos or pasta on top of that. hasnt done me any harm


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## BigDom86 (Jul 27, 2008)

oh and 200g oats a day without fail


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## B-GJOE (May 7, 2009)

martin brown said:


> Just because something is not essential doesn't mean it's optimal to go without. That's a pretty retarded way of looking at it IMO
> 
> There is no reason to cut a third of our energy intake out of our diets, especially when one is trying to grow muscle


You shouldn't take all my posts so seriously. You will notice that I often just throw the odd curve ball into a debate to keep it going.

I agree, optimal growth doesn't happen without carbs. I use keto to get cut, but would never use it on a bulk, it just won't happen. However, you don't need that much, because once glycogen stores are full, any excess blood sugar will go into fat storage, there is no other place to go. If the body kept pushing glycogen into muscle cells they would turn to mush.

Me a retarded thinker!!! :cursing:


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## martin brown (Dec 31, 2008)

B|GJOE said:


> Me a retarded thinker!!! :cursing:


Notice I didn't say you we're lol, just that it would be a retarded way


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## natch97 (Oct 28, 2009)

I think that the main point with carbs is that they are pretty much just energy. If you use all the energy you eating then great. if not it turns to fat and you store it.

If your not getting enough cals then you will lose weight. could be carbs or fat. but common sense should tell you it's good to have a healthy mix and stay away from anything to processed. e.g glucose syrup, trans fats


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## Shrugs (Oct 29, 2009)

Smitch said:


> We all know how important protein intake is but how many carbs do we need to consume a day to continue to grow?
> 
> I'm 85 kgs and don't really seem to be growing much at the moment and i think it may be down to my low carb intake.


Way way way wayyyyyy too low mate lol. I'm on a mass gaining diet at the moment, and to highlight just how low your carb intake is, I'm consuming 80g of carbs in EVERY meal I eat, and I'm eating 6 meals a day often with a couple extra snacks thrown in here and there. I'm also comsuming a minimum of 50g Protein per meal, every meal. So in total it works out at about 500g Carbs daily, and 300g protein daily, spread over 6 meals.

Also, I'm the same weight as you, but am packing it on with this diet, and staying pretty lean due to the frequency of my meals.


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## BigStew (May 6, 2008)

At your bodywieght, you need about 2800 cals just to maintain it!

Your 250g protein & 60g carbs gives you 1240 cals, so unless you're taking in about 174g fats also, your already in deficit & will never gain weight!

As a rough estimate for your bodyweight, I'd go for about 3300 cals to gain weight & I'd seriously think of upping the carbs!


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

The definition of an essential nutrient is which your body needs but cannot make. Carbs can be made by the body and are only strictly needed by a few specific kinds of cell so they are by no means essential... but that doesn't mean they aren't or can't be incredibly beneficial when consumed above the minimum amount you 'need'. Is the difference between what you need to survive and what is optimum for living well.

Your strongest muscle fibres - those that are largest and capable of generating the largest muscular force use glucose and glycogen as their prime fuel. They can use fat too but fat alone cannot provide energy quickly enough to express maximal strength. The effect this has is that on very low carb diets it is impossible to sustain maximum strength effort for as long as you would on a more carb friendly diet.

This is not an issue if you are cutting, when a low carb diet can help that process and strength isn't a top priority, but if bulking, partaking in a sport that requires maximal strength or very fast explosive movements then a low carb diet will more likely than not limit your ability. It can also limit training potential since you can't train as heavy for as long.

There are negative health effects of too many fast carbs taken for long periods of time, but a diet of sensibly selected carbs can be very healthy. As already said in the thread, carbs eaten once your glycogen stores are full will be converted to bodyfat, but carbs eaten before this point will not be. If the carbs eaten once glycogen stores are also high GI carbs then the insulin spike that they cause to occur can contribute to insulin insensitivity if repeated over and over again - when the body is trying to store carbs but cannot because glycogen stores are full, it will start to pump out more and more insulin to try and get them into the cell. When this doesn't work it acts as a signal to the liver to convert those carbs to fat. Lower GI carbs eaten when glycogen stores are full will still be converted to fat, but at a lesser cost to insulin sensitivity. You will also use them more efficiently for immediate energy.

In general, an adult human body will hold between 350 and 500g of glycogen. To burn all that in one day would take some effort but it's possible to get through a good 300g on an active day. This generally means that 200-300g of carbs per day should be fine for most people, assuming that they choose mostly lower GI carbs from fruit and veg. One thing that's often forgotten is that many fruits and veg contain phytonutrients which help carbohydrate absorption and blood sugar maintenence (as well as do whole heap of other good things), which is one of the reasons why unprocessed carbs should always be chosen as a first choice.

Carbs used properly = very good :thumb:


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## IronFed (Dec 10, 2008)

Nice post


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## dingosteve (Apr 26, 2009)

i try to keep carbs to 200g a day anymore then its balloon city, come summer il go down to 100g and up teh fishy oils il prolly drop about 12lbs in weight, im not really bothered about weight but lean muscle i am !


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## sizar (Nov 13, 2008)

carb debate again lol i use low carb to lean out but to grow you need CARB .. i tell you why .. this is my own view and few others too .. if your low on carb your body will convert the protien you eat into CARB Glucos to use for energy .. then you will lack and short on protioen so you will not grow that's why they say eat carb when you want to grow .. because then rest of the protien you eat will be left for muscle building and the carb for energy and rest of your body's functions.


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## Kezz (Sep 3, 2007)

i am dieting on 300g a day and bloody starving!!!


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## Goose (Jan 29, 2009)

I eat around 350g - 400g of carbs a day.. and yes im carrying some excess fat with that but nothing major, once back on the juice this will also help and ill prob up my carbs to 450g a day.. I couldnt survive on 200g! Id feel like im dying lol


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## round 2 (Jan 14, 2010)

Ive often wondered this.ronnie c used to take 600grams of protein no carbs running up to a show.But then again he used to train and sit down all day f**k all else.And if they are that important why are chinese people not so muscley(bruce lee the exeption!)I get most my carbs from bananas and oats.I used to do the rice and potaoes but cold they are just depressing. :confused1:


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## brockles (Jun 23, 2009)

Whats the most important thing for growth? High protein amounts or excess carbs?


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## dingosteve (Apr 26, 2009)

i just dunno why if i eat over 200g i jus go all flabby i swear its true , i really wish it would cos like sizar said all im doing is burning up precious protein for fuel


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## sizar (Nov 13, 2008)

high protien and bit of excess carb not too much otherwise u will gain too much fat just making sure u have nuff fuel to perform recovery functions even when ur in sleep


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## sizar (Nov 13, 2008)

dingosteve said:


> i just dunno why if i eat over 200g i jus go all flabby i swear its true , i really wish it would cos like sizar said all im doing is burning up precious protein for fuel


mate i feel all flabby at the mo my self .. i'm holding water from gear high carb all together gained abit of fat but i know if i keep my carb low i will not grow just be waste of time using gear . so i have to sacrifice the cut to add on mass mate.


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## andzlea69 (Feb 14, 2009)

on the whole gaining weight thing i agree with the carbs bit ! if i dont have enough carbs ie ur 60 g a day i feel really tired and no energy ! im currently on a cycle of tren and my am eating like a very large horse ! all clean tho ! my carbs are not exceptionally high however i dont go over the top with it and just eat anything i want if u know what i mean ! i make sure i have 200 g protien a day and the good fats and i seem to be gaining well with no excess fat being put on so theres my 2 cents !


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## reza85 (Jan 11, 2009)

Have a look at the AD diet works for a allot people depending on how your body deals with carbs if you eat and train healthy and still carrying to much fat i.e over 14% you should not be eating them.

I am no carbs at the mo and I am getting stronger week by week as long as you keep your calorie in take relatively high you should be fine.


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## geordie_paul (Aug 12, 2007)

i couldnt get out of bed the next day after having 60grs of carbs day before, i am dieting for a show consuming 200-300grm of carbs im pretty lean to start with but its coming off still.


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## anne12 (Jul 28, 2010)

Hello Friends.........

Importance of carbohydrate

1.Provide major source of energy

2.Protein sparing action

3.Breakdown of fatty acids and preventing ketosis

4.Biological recognition processes of immunoglobulins and self MHCs

5.Serve also as stored forms of energy as glycogen in liver and muscle.

Thanks

health care


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## Guest (Aug 6, 2010)

martin brown said:


> Firstly they are not essential - they just do you good that's all. It's not essential to train or eat well but it's not a good idea to just ignore them because they are not essential is it?
> 
> It always makes me laugh how quick people are to jump onto bandwagons and accelerate at a thousand miles an hour. Very high carbs diets in the Western worlds cause problems - that does mean we should reduce our intake of glucose-fructose syrup, highly processed sugars etc,, and eat BETTER sources of carbohydrates to avoid things like diabetes, obesity and heart disease etc
> 
> What it doesn't mean is that if less carbs can be better then zero carbs is the best!


good info martin, once again you say the right things, carbs are very important, not essential for survival but optimal for muscle growth , provides enough energy and full gylcogen stores to lift HEAVY weight! carbs are a more reliable energy source than fats, we dnt need much fats in our diet!


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## C19H28O2 (Oct 11, 2008)

Seen as though almost all fruits and vegetables are carbohydrates, I think they are extremely important.. unless you intend to supplement all the essential vitamins & minerals found in these food sources (which is a bad idea IMO)

Even then you are missing out on other beneficial compounds that are primarily found in carbohydrates such as phytonutrients, fibre ect

Carbohydrates (without supplementation) are essential because of the other compounds found in these food sources. Even the carbohydrate molecule itself is the bodies preferred fuel because the body can easily metabolize it into energy.. more so than fat. This might sound detrimental to bodybuilding, but as long as you are consuming low GI carbs (in appropriate servings) and your fat intake is minimal, consisting primarily of essential fatty acids- then its not. As others have mentioned it has a protein sparing effect & is an excellent source of energy.


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## Cliff (May 2, 2010)

round 2 said:


> Ive often wondered this.ronnie c used to take 600grams of protein no carbs running up to a show.But then again he used to train and sit down all day f**k all else.And if they are that important why are chinese people not so muscley(bruce lee the exeption!)I get most my carbs from bananas and oats.I used to do the rice and potaoes but cold they are just depressing. :confused1:


White rice is a bad carb source, inactivity and genetics?

I'm from the chinese part of the world and used to eat white rice daily. Switched to sweet pot and oats and I have gained better than I ever did in comparison to using white rice as my main carb source.


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## martin brown (Dec 31, 2008)

Cliff said:


> *White rice is a bad carb source*, inactivity and genetics?
> 
> I'm from the chinese part of the world and used to eat white rice daily. Switched to sweet pot and oats and I have gained better than I ever did in comparison to using white rice as my main carb source.


Can you enlighten me as to why white rice is a bad source of carbs for gaining weight?


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## Cliff (May 2, 2010)

martin brown said:


> Can you enlighten me as to why white rice is a bad source of carbs for gaining weight?


The question mark at the end of what I said suggests I am assuming dude.

That said, I've always read that brown rice is better..


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## Cliff (May 2, 2010)

martin brown said:


> Can you enlighten me as to why white rice is a bad source of carbs for gaining weight?


Taken from muscletalk:

Brown rice is preferable, basmati is next best although it lacks the fibre of the brown variety, white rice especially the easy cook is heavily milled and has nutrients added back in to make its nutritional values worth the effort of boiling it.


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## martin brown (Dec 31, 2008)

Cliff said:


> Taken from muscletalk:
> 
> Brown rice is preferable, basmati is next best although it lacks the fibre of the brown variety, white rice especially the easy cook is heavily milled and has nutrients added back in to make its nutritional values worth the effort of boiling it.


Thanks for that.

The only problem you have is that you cut and paste some information without any understanding of why. Now as much as I take Muscletalk to be the fountain of truth - this simply cannot be taken as fact.

So are you now suggesting large amounts of fibre is a good way of gaining weight? And as a result, by % weight, less carbs?

In real life when an individual is trying to gain weight the last thing he/she needs is a lot of slow digesting fibre that keeps you full for hours. This will result in less food being consumed per day and less weight gained.

Now taken in another context I'd agree - brown rice is better when dieting or living a 'healthy' life.

One size does not fit all


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

Fibre in proportionate amounts is healthy, it helps optimise the balance between HDL and LDL cholesterol, chelates and removes toxins, and the fibrous part of fruit and veg often is what has the highest concentration of nutrients, but it's not a weight gainer... in fact the opposite is true.

Very high fibre diets actually reduce absorption of other nutrients, particularly of fats, proteins and slow digesting carbs, by shifting those foods through your system before they have been properly broken down by digestive enzymes. It fills you up too and reduces appetite.

All this makes high fibre eating fantastic to have on a cut, or if you struggle to keep the lbs off, and some fibre intake will only be benficial to health... but for bulking having a lot of it is not the best choice.

Having said all that, we aren't exactly talking about an excessive amount of fibre coming from brown rice... certainly not enough on its own to have a massive effect.


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## hilly (Jan 19, 2008)

i would be more than happy to bet a fair amount of cash that 99% of people on here would notice no difference to the physiques wether eating brown or basmati rice


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

hilly said:


> i would be more than happy to bet a fair amount of cash that 99% of people on here would notice no difference to the physiques wether eating brown or basmati rice


exactly!


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## Big Dawg (Feb 24, 2008)

hilly said:


> i would be more than happy to bet a fair amount of cash that 99% of people on here would notice no difference to the physiques wether eating brown or basmati rice


Sounds like you're underestimating the brown power there brah! :thumb:

I knew a guy who changed from eating basmati to brown rice. Went from 240lbs, 40% body fat to 240lbs, 4% body fat in 2 weeks. True story


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## Cliff (May 2, 2010)

martin brown said:


> The only problem you have is that you cut and paste some information without any understanding of why.


 :lol: I just love your tactful responses, even when they are aimed at me. :thumb:


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## martin brown (Dec 31, 2008)

Cliff said:


> :lol: I just love your tactful responses, even when they are aimed at me. :thumb:


Lol, I wasn't trying to be an **** mate 

It's just good to question why we believe what we believe sometimes. And often when something is right it's not always right for all people all of the time.

The problem with training and diet is that there are so many variables anything can be right and virtually anything can be wrong in different contexts!

My opinion - when gaining weight carbs are you friends, the easier to eat the better.


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