# Intermittent fasting



## Brotein (Mar 22, 2010)

Has anybody read upon this style of eating? or even the warrior diet?

looking to find somebody who is doing it, as thinking of using this style for my cut.

here is the site to read up on it

http://www.leangains.com/2010/04/leangains-guide.html


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## SD (Sep 3, 2004)

Doing the Warrior Diet now fella, its working well though I need to fine tune it some more before I shout about it, 1st week I lost 3lb, second week about 1/2 a pound?! will see Friday how I have fared this week but its certainly worth trying, I feel great and very energetic.

Look on Iron Addict forum for loads of info of how to tweak it for a Bber.

SD


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## Lois_Lane (Jul 21, 2009)

Warrior diet is good i have done it before.

Fasting is good for rapid weight loss including muscle.

Fat fasting ( 90% fat 10% protien 1000calories per day) as how Atkins out lined it is the very best way to lose fat rapidly while maintaining muscle.


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## hilly (Jan 19, 2008)

i like the thought of mini fasts with just aminos and glutamine in.

for example not eating for the first 4-6 hours of waking giving you a 12-14 hour fast if slept for 8 hours etc but i dont like the thought of totally fasting for a day etc altho its been proven to not loose muscle doing this if i remember right.


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

Lois_Lane said:


> Fat fasting ( 90% fat 10% protien 1000calories per day) as how Atkins out lined it is the very best way to lose fat rapidly while maintaining muscle.


I tried something like that once for about three weeks and it destroyed my muscle mass... felt like **** too. Have you ever followed the diet?


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## Lois_Lane (Jul 21, 2009)

Dtlv74 said:


> I tried something like that once for about three weeks and it destroyed my muscle mass... felt like **** too. Have you ever followed the diet?


 Yes but for 1 week not 3 weeks, i think i would lose my mind if i did it that long:lol:

Did it really destroy muscle mass or just make you very depleted?


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

Lois_Lane said:


> Yes but for 1 week not 3 weeks, i think i would lose my mind if i did it that long:lol:
> 
> Did it really destroy muscle mass or just make you very depleted?


I think a combo of both... I lost size most noticably on my calves, upper arms and forearms which at the time were pretty scrawny anyway (definitely not just glycogen and fluid loss).

I possibly did over do it though... didn't really have a lot of fat to lose anyway, and may well have created too much deficit by all the exercise I was also doign.

Was during my big low carb diets experiment phase which definitely had mixed results for me and am not sure is appropriate for my bodytype and prefered activity level.


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## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

Lois_Lane said:


> Warrior diet is good i have done it before.
> 
> *Fasting is good for rapid weight loss including muscle.*
> 
> Fat fasting ( 90% fat 10% protien 1000calories per day) as how Atkins out lined it is the very best way to lose fat rapidly while maintaining muscle.


Bullsh*t!

Fasting has been shown only to effect muscle if you go a stupidly extended period of time, like 72hrs+, in fact Martin (who runs the site linked to in the first post) has studies linking to the effect of this.

Contrary to popular broscience your metabolism actually rises silightly during a short fast.

Fat fasting is retarded, you risk the very real possibility of losing muscle at that level of protein intake, protein being the most muscle sparing nutrient of all afterall. If you really wanted to lose fat quickly whilst maintaining muscle than a "Protein Sparing Modified Fast" or PSMF is the way to go. Lyle Mcdonald has popularised this form of dieting with his Rapid Fatloss Diet plan. It's basically days of Low Cals (8cal per lb BW and lower), low fat and carbs with almost all energy coming from Protein. Depending on you degree of leanness dictates how long you can stay on the diet without sacrificing muscle, those already lean normally use a 10day period.

Going back to the original question, I have used the leangains system for the past 2 years or so. Effortless maintaining, cutting is easier, bulking ain't so fun with a smaller window to get all your cals, in but it's more than doable. Plus you get to eat BIG.


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## SD (Sep 3, 2004)

hilly said:


> i like the thought of mini fasts with just aminos and glutamine in.
> 
> for example not eating for the first 4-6 hours of waking giving you a 12-14 hour fast if slept for 8 hours etc but i dont like the thought of totally fasting for a day etc altho its been proven to not loose muscle doing this if i remember right.


That is basically the Warrior Diet mate, its not total fasting but a 12-16 hour fast followed by light protein and veg, then a 4 hour feast in the evening after training. Nice thing is, any food I have problems with allergy wise, dont get a chance to upset me during the day, if anything sets me off in the evening fine! I am going to bed anyway and will sleep it off.

Its not fasting per say anyway, the large quantity of meat in the evening will take up to 12 hours to digest so will be drip feeding you all night and all day.

Not gonna speak about it too much though as I experimenting with it right now so wouldn't recommend it to anyone just yet.

SD


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## Lois_Lane (Jul 21, 2009)

bayman said:


> Bullsh*t!
> 
> Fasting has been shown only to effect muscle if you go a stupidly extended period of time, like 72hrs+, in fact Martin (who runs the site linked to in the first post) has studies linking to the effect of this.
> 
> ...


 You are a dumb fvck, that is all. 

I wont bother argueing with you simply because you have no clue.

Plus you are making assumptions about my post, where did i mention metabolism and where did i mention length of fasting.

Do some research you rude mentally challenge moron and you will see the statements about fasting compared to fat fasting to be 100% accurate as far as mucle loss goes.

Seeing that those were the only statements i made you truly can go fvck your self.


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

Fasting will kill more muscle if you exercise whilst fasting than if you are sedentry... changes in metabolic rate will also depend on things like your starting fat mass, starting muscle mass and hormonal state... many factors and variables to consider if getting into the details but as a general rule fasting for any length of time over 24 hours isn't good for muscle mass.


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## Lois_Lane (Jul 21, 2009)

Dtlv74 said:


> Fasting will kill more muscle if you exercise whilst fasting than if you are sedentry... changes in metabolic rate will also depend on things like your starting fat mass, starting muscle mass and hormonal state... many factors and variables to consider if getting into the details but as a general rule fasting for any length of time over 24 hours isn't good for muscle mass.


 Thank you

Amazing how a complete overview statement like the one i made got translated into what that fool said.

FFS broscience is a rich statement coming from someone who gets all their info from LM


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## najybomb (Nov 19, 2008)

personally wouldnt do fasting, or lose anymore than two pounds a week, your fat cells will realise whats going on. hence why cutting calories drasticly doesnt leave you ripped. the fat cells release hormones which cause the famine response and your basal metabolic rate to grind to a halt. some have been shown to only need five hundreds a calories a day. so in terms of fasting? wouldnt do it really. dont like the idea, plus your fat cells will broaden their set point and youll end up fatter.


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## hilly (Jan 19, 2008)

ure only guessing their with the set point malarky mate. i dont believe this has been proven yet has it??

would love to know if it has tho


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## najybomb (Nov 19, 2008)

i believe there is strong evidence to prove it as they synthesised the hormone leptin is it? and in trials did ****all. and the whole set point is all based around those hormones famine response etc. its a risk i wouldnt want to run though. plus you can see it anyway slim fast bitches walking around fatter, yo yo dieters. just doesnt work mate.


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## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

Lois_Lane said:


> You are a dumb fvck, that is all.
> 
> I wont bother argueing with you simply because you have no clue.
> 
> ...


Way to go refuting my points without backing it up yourself with any hint of "research", nice ad hominem to boot (attacking the person rather than the argument) too! :beer:

You mentioned "fasting" in you post. Therefore I'm inclined to think anything under the banner of fasting is included. It's your fault not mine that you weren't more implicit with your definition of the term.


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## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

Dtlv74 said:


> Fasting will kill more muscle if you exercise whilst fasting than if you are sedentry... changes in metabolic rate will also depend on things like your starting fat mass, starting muscle mass and hormonal state... many factors and variables to consider if getting into the details *but as a general rule fasting for any length of time over 24 hours isn't good for muscle mass.*


Who here mentioned exercsing in the fasted state? Anyway, you can offset any potential issues with the intake of some BCAA around training if that's you concern.

As for the bit I've bolded, it's simply not true, or it's situation specific. A 24hr fast after next to no food - muscle loss may well be on the cards. If you've fed prior to the fast, especially a protein rich meal - no evidence.

To quote probably the industry leader on the the subject of fasting:



> *Fasting causes Muscle Loss*
> 
> This myth hinges on people's belief it's important to have a steady stream of amino acids available to not lose muscle. As I explained earlier, protein is absorbed at a very slow rate. After a large high-protein meal, amino acids trickle into your blood stream for several hours.
> 
> ...


Taken from here is anybody's interested.


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## hamsternuts (Feb 8, 2009)

i don't think anyone is interested mate, not with an attitude like yours.

that is all.


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## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

hamsternuts said:


> i don't think anyone is interested mate, not with an attitude like yours.
> 
> that is all.


I'm struggling to see where I've displayed "attitude", but if questioning a guy with more posts than me on here is "attitude", then yes, guilty as charged ma' lord.

It's no loss of mine if nobody is interested and people are prepared to continue peddaling myths regarding diet.

Broscience FTW!


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## hamsternuts (Feb 8, 2009)

typing 'bullsh;t' when you quote someone...?

that'll be the attitude then.

if your opinion differs, fair do's, but no need for potty mouth is there?

have a neg.


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## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

hamsternuts said:


> typing 'bullsh;t' when you quote someone...?
> 
> that'll be the attitude then.


Calling someone out for bullsh*t isn't attitude. I might have gone about it in a more sypathetic manner, but when absolute statements like "fasting causes muscle loss" are tossed around by people, then why not?



hamsternuts said:


> but no need for potty mouth is there?
> 
> have a neg.


I didn't realise I was back in school. How childish. :thumbup1:


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

> *Only in prolonged fasting does protein catabolism become an issue. This happens when stored liver glycogen becomes depleted. In order to maintain blood glucose, conversion of amino acids into glucose must occur (DNG: de novo glucogenesis)*.


This about gluogenesis is true, but doesn't prove anything at all about the effect of fasting on muscle loss. Liver glycogen does require to be depleted for increased catabolism of muscle to occur, and this glycogen depletion usually takes around 24-36 hours during a complete fast... but if you exercise during the first few hours of your fast you will burn up the glycogen much more quickly and will also ramp up cortisol levels which kick start the catabolic process much earlier. For someone not exercising the effects are very different to someone who is exercising, and is perfectly possible to reach a state of muscle catabolism in half a day or so. Ironically having a higher level of muscle mass will also make you more catabolic more quickly due to the increased metabolic rate you have, and previously being on a high protein diet will also increase the speed to catabolism due to upregulation of certain enzymes... many factors, but the best generalised advice I think *for someone who train*s is to avoid fasting for periods longer than 24 hours, do them infrequently and always fast on a no exercise day.


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## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

Dtlv74 said:


> This about gluogenesis is true, but doesn't prove anything at all about the effect of fasting on muscle loss. Liver glycogen does require to be depleted for increased catabolism of muscle to occur, and this glycogen depletion usually takes around 24-36 hours during a complete fast... but if you exercise during the first few hours of your fast you will burn up the glycogen much more quickly and will also ramp up cortisol levels which kick start the catabolic process much earlier. For someone not exercising the effects are very different to someone who is exercising, and is perfectly possible to reach a state of muscle catabolism in half a day or so. Ironically having a higher level of muscle mass will also make you more catabolic more quickly due to the increased metabolic rate you have, and previously being on a high protein diet will also increase the speed to catabolism due to upregulation of certain enzymes... many factors, but the best generalised advice I think *for someone who train*s is to avoid fasting for periods longer than 24 hours, do them infrequently and always fast on a no exercise day.


I'd agree with all of the above in the main.

Martin Berkhan (the developer of the leangains system refered to in the first post in this thread) utilises a 16hr daily fast, or thereabouts.


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## Lois_Lane (Jul 21, 2009)

Bayman i would have had all the time in the world for you.

I would have gladly debated, posted up the research articles i have.

Believe it or not i have studied this intensively not only at uni (although it was brief and not as indepth as others) but i have also done a large amount of own research. Dieting methods interest me greatly and have for as long as i can remember. BUT you opened up the convo by insulting me so all you recieve in return is hostility.

Read again what i wrote....

I said i tried the warrior diet and found it good, perhaps not for absalute bodybuilding purposes but as far as an easy to follow yet effective diet i have yet to see a diet more effective.

I said that fasting by its self is not a good idea if lean muscle preservation was your goal. Now when i wrote this i ASSUMED we were talking about a longer term diet. Contrary to what you may believe it is very possible to fast for several weeks on end. (a guy i highly respect on another forum is actually an expert on fasting)In the longer run you will lose muscle this way. You will notice i did not mention intermittent fasting which can be effective and is something all humans do while we sleep.

The Atkins fast is actually a very effective way to continue progress while dieting. I wouldn't run it for several weeks but for a short period of time it works well. The same can be said for the hcg diet but this diet is harder IMO.

I don't see where this warrants an attack.

Simply put the related terms into google and you will see i have not made up some far fetched "broscience" theory.

As much as i like Lyle M and his work why is it that the guys that follow him do so in a close to cult like manner. To the point where they attack any thing that their guru/spiritual master does not agree with???

Act like an asshole and i will in return act the same way.

P.S. lets get one thing fvcking straight! Every thing i say everything you say everything any one says is opinion. You can find research to back up any opinion going and give it 50 years and all the studies done now will be out dated and probably false. So lets not pretend that our little studies are more than they are.


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## najybomb (Nov 19, 2008)

Lois_Lane said:


> Bayman i would have had all the time in the world for you.
> 
> I would have gladly debated, posted up the research articles i have.
> 
> ...


con my man! only one thing for it. neg the **** out of him! :beer:


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## Lois_Lane (Jul 21, 2009)

najybomb said:


> con my man! only one thing for it. neg the **** out of him! :beer:


 I gave him one out of anger for such a hostile response.

Lately this board seems to have a lot more of these guys that respond in a manner that is no longer just opinionated and perhaps a little harsh (i have been guilty of this many times) but down right insulting.

Its a pity because unlike all other big boards i know of this board did not have a lot of this....


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## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

Apolgies if my response came accross as overly hostile, unfortunatlely I'm all too familiar with the crap that gets spouted on other similar boards and thus tend to reply in a short tempered way. Again, it wasn't intended as a personal insult, it my own fault for being fairly new to these boards.

I think the main confusion here has come from the terms used, I had assumed looking at te opening post we were talking about intermittant fasting and therfore that you were stating it would lead to muscle loss.

I'm well aware long term fasting is possible and of it's effects on muscle catabolism, but short term fasting <24hrs is nothing to be overly worried about and could form part of an effective dieting regime IMO. Contrary to what you might here from your avergae bb'er, My personal preference is for shorter duration or "intermittant" type fasting.

As for your point on research, what you say is true. But if you take the weight of evidence on the whole you can make a pretty "informed" stance on an issue. And contrary to what you may think I don't nutswing on Lyle Mcdonald, but he gets a lot more right than he gets wrong.

Group hug?


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## hamsternuts (Feb 8, 2009)

i've decided i like you now.

you can stay.


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## Lois_Lane (Jul 21, 2009)

hamsternuts said:


> i've decided i like you now.
> 
> you can stay.


 Lol, x2

Fair enough bayman. I am sure you have plenty of knowledge at the end of the day probably more than i do. I go mainly by practical application and real world results as i find the real world often does not correlate all too strongly with research.


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## Guest (Nov 10, 2010)

I've just started this approach myself


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

bayman said:


> Apolgies if my response came accross as overly hostile, unfortunatlely I'm all too familiar with the crap that gets spouted on other similar boards and thus tend to reply in a short tempered way. Again, it wasn't intended as a personal insult, it my own fault for being fairly new to these boards.
> 
> I think the main confusion here has come from the terms used, I had assumed looking at te opening post we were talking about intermittant fasting and therfore that you were stating it would lead to muscle loss.
> 
> ...


Intermittant fasting and long duration fasting two very different things as you say and nicely cleared up.

I went through an odd phase when i first got into trainnig and eating larger amounts of food than previously... I found that after every five-six days I found it really difficult to eat, and would feel almost sick after just a few hundred kcals. I started to go with my instinct and ended up basically doing a one day fast once a week. Obviously I don't know how this affected my gains because I had no comparison at the time, but I certainly stayed lean and grew doing this, and also found that the two-three days after the semi fast I felt buzzing with energy.

Nowadays I eat and train a bit differently and don't have the fasts but do back off the amount of food I eat on non training days. I also don't load up with slow release foods before bed, allowing my body a good ten hours every night with no nutrients supplied. Camparing this to times when I have done the night time casein and fat feeds there appears to be no detriment to gains at all if total kcals and amounts of protein for the day are the same, with the only difference being that I don't get morning constipation and have a better appetite and energy levels when waking.


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## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

Dtlv74 said:


> with the only difference being that I don't get morning constipation and have a better appetite and energy levels when waking.


Since adopting an IF approach I've found this also, although I do have a feed before bed, but this is my last food till around 14:00 - 15:00hrs the next day.

I find my day is much more productive (especially after a black coffee) and I'm not thinking about food or when to crack out the tupperwear every 2.47hrs. I only really get hungry towards the end of the 16hrs and this I'm told corresponds with meal entrainment and the hunger hormone Ghrelin.


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## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

For those of you not familair with IF, this is the type of shape Martin over @ www.leangains.com maintains year round, AAS free, as a result of his system:


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## maccer (Jul 11, 2007)

'I have been incorpoating IF for about 6 weeks I think!!! I like it take the stress away from food prep that is sure!!! More time for other things IME


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## Lois_Lane (Jul 21, 2009)

bayman said:


> For those of you not familair with IF, this is the type of shape Martin over @ www.leangains.com maintains year round, AAS free, as a result of his system:


 Really don't want to seem like a d1ck and i am about to try and give your reps back so you don't have all those red squares BUT.......so what he is not that impressive:confused1: he is very lean and has a good bicep but he nearly looks sickly IMO


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## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

That's fair enough, each to their own. That pic is in fact him at the peak of his cut at around 170lb, he's now in similar condition but 30lb heavier, I just couldn't post the pics as they were too big.

His most recent physique update: http://www.leangains.com/2010/03/secret-benefit-of-being-lean.html


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## chetanbarokar (Mar 1, 2010)

Lois_Lane said:


> As much as i like Lyle M and his work *why is it that the guys that follow him do so in a close to cult like manner. To the point where they attack any thing that their guru/spiritual master does not agree with???*


Lois_Lane, that one really made me laugh. :lol:

Rep for that.

Btw, I wonder where will these reps go when your rep meter is already full. lol.


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