# My keto diet - need some help



## adesign (Jun 10, 2008)

What are some other good forms of fat that I can include? No trans fatty fats and I find it hard to eat too much bacon unless its a sandwich!

Currently my daily intake at average is 5 eggs for breakfast, chicken breast for next meal, maximuscle protein shake, more chicken, mince beef, protein shake and I use coconut oil for my frying and dipping food into plus I use cell mass pwo. I train 5 days a week with circuit training taking up one of those days and I use hydroxycut hardcore (3 pills) in the mornings otherwise I wont have energy to leave the house!

Im around 5ft 5. Currently at 92kg which ~18%bf. My weight hasn't really adjusted in the last 5 weeks but Im going down belt holes which is what im using as the indicator of progress.

I have been following this diet for just over 6 weeks now but my energy levels are so low. My strength is still increasing but just constantly feel drained. Im pretty positive this is down to the lack of fats? Would more fats also increase my likely hood of staying in ketosis? My carbs intake is at 15grams a day from the protein shakes and the occasional onion added with my foods.

My target is to get cut to the point of clearly visible abs but when I feel Im closer to that I will change to a TKD so I can keep it going as a lifestyle. Im hoping to get to this level by around the end of sept, do you think this is feasible? I guess thats not really a neccasary question because im just going to stick to it till im satisfied.

Im suffering from alot of headaches, drinking around 5L of water a day so is that down to the hydroxycut? I have never suffered from headaches in my life. Also I am urinating around 3 times an hour but I feel dehydrated still most of the time which I feel is odd.

If you need me to weigh out the exact weights of what Im eating please let me know. I am extremely determined to meet my goals so will do anything that is neccassary.


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## Lost Soul (Apr 5, 2008)

adesign said:


> What are some other good forms of fat that I can include? No trans fatty fats and I find it hard to eat too much bacon unless its a sandwich!
> 
> Currently my daily intake at average is 5 eggs for breakfast, chicken breast for next meal, maximuscle protein shake, more chicken, mince beef, protein shake and I use coconut oil for my frying and dipping food into plus I use cell mass pwo. I train 5 days a week with circuit training taking up one of those days and I use hydroxycut hardcore (3 pills) in the mornings otherwise I wont have energy to leave the house!
> 
> ...


I cant help but think this is a little off

15g of carbs? you can get away with far more and stay in ketosis

As for fats, olive oil, fish, flax, butter, seeds...all of this would have been outlined in any keto book you would have read.

Maximuscle shakes suggests that homework hasnt been done TBH.

Keto diets are not for everybody and TBH cycled ones and 5 weight sessions per week do not go hand in hand...In fact you are not even cycling carbs as I have just read...you are just trying to stay ketogenic in the form of an SKD

SKDs are not for weight trainers and I dont even think you are in ketosis as your protein intake is massive and nothing else

it seems more of a low carb, low fat non ketogenic diet thats high catabolic and brain fog is probably coming from a lack of either glucose or ketones

Start using carbs and cycling them in and out

People are taking on diets getting them wrong and they are not even required

At your weight/BF a simple calorie deficit is fine from all food groups


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## adesign (Jun 10, 2008)

I just had my stats taken again today. Im now 90kg and 20.7%bf (according to the hand held machine) this was done at around 7pm which I know is not the best time and I was moderately hydrated.

This leaves me to believe LS is right in that I am just in a catabolic state (although today keto sticks say I have traces of ketones in my system). This has surprised me a lot as I am doing a lot of cardio and weight sessions. What do you think is causing this (if it is accurate) the lack of fats? Its also strange in that my strength is still increasing at a noticeable degree.

About the Maxi muscle protein shake assumption, my mum got that for me (good exam results) I normally use the 90+ but that is all totally irrelevant to any of my points or questions.

Im happy with not cycling atm. Unless I vitally need those carbs for the anti catabolic effect?

I have done this type of plan before and managed to get to around 10%bf but I admittedly had also lost a shed load of muscle mass. I really do not want that to happen again and it hasn't been till this week (being the 6th).

I have just found a good resource http://www.mynchen.demon.co.uk/index.htm#The%20ketogenic%20diet so will be reading through all of that tonight to gain a better insight. In the mean time I appreciate any thoughts! Im also going to make a blog from tomorrow with some shots so that others can learn from my trial and error.


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

here is a basic plan that can be adjusted if you feel the need...

meal 1 - 6 whole omega eggs

meal 2 - 2 scoops low carb protein drink/10 almonds

meal 3 - 200g chicken breast/salad consisting of lettuce/red onion/mushrooms/celery/cucumber(all negative foods with low carbs)

meal - 4 same as meal 2

meal - 5 same as meal 3

meal - 6 200g salmon/ green veg

hope this helps mate


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## adesign (Jun 10, 2008)

That's brilliant thank you. Do you think the amount of cardio im doing should be continued/increased/decreased with the aim of decent fat loss whilst maintaining muscle mass? Alongside the diet you stated?

Also a quick side track question. I know I must have at least 9 hours of sleep a night. Does it matter at what time I achieve this sleep? As during non term time I work part time till early hours and part time freelancing I get to sleep at different times but always get at least 9 hours.


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

Pscarb said:


> here is a basic plan that can be adjusted if you feel the need...
> 
> meal 1 - 6 whole omega eggs
> 
> ...


looks just like my diet! :whistling:


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## Lost Soul (Apr 5, 2008)

adesign said:


> I just had my stats taken again today. Im now 90kg and 20.7%bf (according to the hand held machine) this was done at around 7pm which I know is not the best time and I was moderately hydrated.
> 
> This leaves me to believe LS is right in that I am just in a catabolic state (although today keto sticks say I have traces of ketones in my system). This has surprised me a lot as I am doing a lot of cardio and weight sessions. What do you think is causing this (if it is accurate) the lack of fats? Its also strange in that my strength is still increasing at a noticeable degree.
> 
> ...


TBH I think you have gone way over the top on what is required

Ketosis is not required to lose weight

carbs are required to hold onto muscle

You cannot weight train on SKDs

Paul has put an SKD above, if you adopt that (which is a good plan) you must cycle carbs OR target them on training days

You cannot train in ketosis and I dont think 20 odd % BF requires it to get lean

I get to 6% with between 50 and 300g carbs a day cycled and would never leave them out


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## adesign (Jun 10, 2008)

Okay so I shall follow the above CKD meal plan but turn it into a TKD by simple carbs before and after training? http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/sclark86.htm Indicates that I need 65 grams for my stats on a TKD. So I'll call that 50g as it says lower for weight loss.

I have been able to train in ketosis. I would be able to train harder without it but im making noticeable strength gains whilst in it (guess that's because I have only started training consistently again recently) . It also keeps me motivated doing a form of keto as im continuously aware of it. If I just did a cal deficit I will most likely fall off the rails! If you get me? Does this all sound solid enough for my goals so far? I am going to go find out whats the best way to get those carbs in for the TKD but if you know whats best I'd like to hear.

Thank you again.


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## Lost Soul (Apr 5, 2008)

you stay in ketosis on 100g a day once there a TKD will be far higher that 65 grams per day.

I cannot support this mate, I just cant...I see too many people adopting diets they just dont need to do

You need to address your relationship with food mate...this is done away from diet forums too


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## adesign (Jun 10, 2008)

What exactly is wrong with this approach then. If was upped to around 200g of carbs then would I still be seeing the same progress? Is your disagreement with the amount of carbs in the TKD I was going to follow or just the fact I wish to do a form of keto over a standard cal deficit diet? I dont feel I have bad relationship with food as of such, I aint really bothered about what I eat any more in terms of enjoyment. When I said off the rails I meant in the way of keep track of every cal I take.


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## Lost Soul (Apr 5, 2008)

1 if you are scared to go off the rails then you have issues with eating

2 you dont need to count calories to lose weight

3 if you are 20% bodyfat you dont even need to think to lose fat let alone run an SKD

4 ketosis will remain in place on 100g of carbs per day

5 carbs and glycogen are needed for weight training, ketones are not suitable

6 you dont need to fear carbs

end of the day mate ketogenic diets are for a few people

1 inuslin insensitive people

2 bodybuilders who have a metabolism to suit them (used in the final stages of dieting)

3 sedentry folk

I cant imagine you are any of those TBh and I think you need to look away from fad and look at fact, logic and sense

TKDs break ketosis for training, you are not trying to stay there, you disrupt it and return shortly afterwards.

carb cycling out of ketosis is far better in terms of body composition (for most) energy levels, strength, sexual functioning, micronutrient intake (and as a result healt) and enjoyment of life


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

meal 1 - 6 whole omega eggs

meal 2 - 2 scoops low carb protein drink/10 almonds

meal 3 - 200g chicken breast/salad consisting of lettuce/red onion/mushrooms/celery/cucumber(all negative foods with low carbs)

meal - 4 same as meal 2

meal - 5 same as meal 3

meal - 6 200g salmon/ green veg



cwoody123 said:


> looks just like my diet! :whistling:


sorry mate it looks nothing like your diet the diet above has quality protein in every meal along with good fats plus their are 6 meals, yours has only 3meals and 2 snacks....nothing like your diet mate.....



cwoody diet said:


> Breakfast:
> 
> Omelette made with cream 4 eggs, mushrroms, chopped cucumber.
> 
> ...


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## adesign (Jun 10, 2008)

Okay so its established that a 'normal' diet is best for me, CKD is best keto, but if I have the appropriate amount of carbs in a TKD that brings me out of ketosis for the training that will also be acceptable? I like that plan Pscarb gave see, suites my appetite. So I'd like to give that plan a try for 12 weeks and then go from there.

Currently I am now doing a 5 day split(3x10, 1xfailure) with:

Chest/Tri's

Shoulder/Back

abs/Biceps

Legs

10 mins of HIIT training after each session. Plus maybe an hours worth of hill walking if my gym partner cant make it or the weather is too nice.

I also just started doing circuit training once a week.

What do you think of this? Over training? More/less cardio?

Please help me solidify my training/diet as much as possible towards my aims. I am willing to do almost anything that is needed tbh but would be very happy if I could stick to the mentioned eating plan. If that is adequate how many carbs do you suggest?

My current sizes(at the biggest part of each) incase it is helpful are:

Mass: 90KG

Bicept: 15.6"

Chest: 42.2"

Abs: 41.8"

Thighs: 29"

Calfs: 17"

Currently benching 110kg for 10 on squat.

80kg for deadlift (still working on getting the form exact)

DB Shoulder press at 50kg for 10

80kg for 10 on bench press.

This has all been in ketosis I believe.

I know that I need to read up a lot more so if you have some relevent book suggests I will dive right in! Input of any form is always appreciated!


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## Guest (Jul 3, 2008)

cwoody123 said:


> looks just like my diet! :whistling:


 PMSL i nearly choked on my oats reading that:laugh: :thumb: :laugh:


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## adesign (Jun 10, 2008)

Another question and bump. I have read conflicting articles on pre work out carbs. Some are saying take slow release carbs 2-3 hours before and others are saying fast release 30mins before. What do you guys reckon?


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## Guest (Jul 5, 2008)

adesign said:


> Another question and bump. I have read conflicting articles on pre work out carbs. Some are saying take slow release carbs 2-3 hours before and others are saying fast release 30mins before. What do you guys reckon?


 No direct carbs on a keto diet.

Personally post training i have a spoon of peannut butter and a whey shake while using that diet.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Bump for later.


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## Lost Soul (Apr 5, 2008)

Con said:


> No direct carbs on a keto diet.
> 
> Personally post training i have a spoon of peannut butter and a whey shake while using that diet.


But he cannot run an SKD whilst weight training...this is what I am driving at

to the original poster are you going TKD or CK

why not just diet out of ketosis and run cycled carbs...I dont even think you need to do that but for some reason you do, so at least make it logical

Trust me

6 meals with protein, fat and good carbs a day will be so much more beneficiasl at this stage.

Bottom line:

your bodyfat is high

energy levels are low

you have brain fog

I just dont see where a keto diet let alone an SKD fits in

20-25g of carbs over 6 meals IMO


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

Lost Soul said:


> But he cannot run an SKD whilst weight training...this is what I am driving at


 why can't he?? no assumptions please i want to know why this guy *cannot* run a SKD whilst training


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

adesign to answer your question on PWO carbs i like Con just use fats and protein when dieting on low carbs, although it pains me i do in some way agree with LS on the fact that i think you could do with carb cycling rather than Keto as Keto style diets are very very hard and not for everyone but then in saying all that you will not know if they suit you until you try.

yesterday i dropped all carbs as a lead up to my re-feed day today this was my diet..

Meal 1 - 4 whole eggs/4 egg whites + 1 tin of smoked tuna

Meal 2 - 2 scoops extreme protein(frozen then eaten as a pudding  ) + 50g natty PB

Meal 3 - 265g chicken breast + 50g smoked almonds

Meal 4 - 2 scoops extreme protein + 25g smoked Almonds

Meal 5 - PWO shake (2 scoops extreme protein + 10g leucine/glutamine)

Meal 6 - 4 whole eggs/2 egg whites + 50g Kol-Les cheese

this lot gave me 116g Fat/352g Protein and 31g carbs

i will do the same on Sunday and Monday after my re-feed


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## maccer (Jul 11, 2007)

where you get smoked tuna from mate? and smoked ALmonds?


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## adesign (Jun 10, 2008)

I appreciate what you are saying LS but if I can get away with a CKT or TKD I'd like to do that. So far I have now been SKD'in for just over 6 weeks, so I know I can handle keto. Dropped 6% and I believe more than what the device says, getting lots of comments. I have been able to go up from 70kg on the squat to 110kg for 10 during this period too. Yes im a beginner but been on and off for 3 years so not too sure if I still get all the beginner gain benefits.

I asked about the carbs because I wanted considering going into a TKD from a SDK for around 12 weeks. Do you think that I should just use PWO fats and stick to being completely keto (I'll mix a table spoon of coconut oil in my shake)? or go the traditional carb TKD way?

Thank you for posting that up Pscarb I will vary the 1st one you gave with that one now and then :] Although I'll change the amounts as im not quite as big as you  . Could someone be kind enough also to look at my split/routine to see if its okay and that I will see fat loss with minimal muscle loss along side it with this diet?

Thank you!


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## Lost Soul (Apr 5, 2008)

Pscarb said:


> why can't he?? no assumptions please i want to know why this guy *cannot* run a SKD whilst training


This is now semantics paul, Im sure you know the context of the wording 

You can decide to sail the atlantic in a paper boat

You can decide to walk from london to glasgow instead of taking the train

As you will know ketones do not favour anaerobic exercise, glycogen does and an SKD as pointed out originally by lyle is simply not going to either support performance, recovery or a favourable body composition

I m sure you are aware of that. When I use the word cannot or can't it is in the same context as john mcenroe saying "you cannot be serious"

The umpire was never having a laugh

if you want to point out the advantages of SKDs, weight training and body compostion Vs all other diets im all ears


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

i train on very low if not zero carbs at times all i am getting at LS is you make a statement of you cannot do this or that yet if someone else was and have done in the past the same statement you would want clarification and you know it....

you can train of SKD.....


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

maccer said:


> where you get smoked tuna from mate? and smoked ALmonds?


sainsbury's mate


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## imy1436114503 (Jul 5, 2005)

guys,google search black seed oil,its got alot of muscle building properties,example-essential amino acids,protien,iron,sodium,carbs,calcium and the list goes on..... scientists are still discovering new ingrediants in it.its the secret to ll cool js body and the guy looks gud,he's in his forties now,iv got a few lads on it now from my gym,they said you right mate,cud help in fat loss as aswell and build lean muscle,its got no known side affects,i know this has got nothing to do with this thread,just trying to be helpfull in your quest to build muscle,its only available on the net,have a luck at least,its got alot of history behind it,


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## adesign (Jun 10, 2008)

Debates are all good and well, but I would appreciate some more directed help :]


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## Lost Soul (Apr 5, 2008)

Pscarb said:


> i train on very low if not zero carbs at times all i am getting at LS is you make a statement of you cannot do this or that yet if someone else was and have done in the past the same statement you would want clarification and you know it....
> 
> you can train of SKD.....


From all your posts paul you state you diet on carbs and their importance, but im not even going down that route.

Find me someone who advocates SKDs and weight training and Im all ears..*no* re feeds, no odd carbs binges a true SKD and I will happily embrace the information

The lad states he is weak, has no energy and feels light headed,,is an SKD good here?

Lyle says no, I have to agree from reading and trying it 



adesign said:


> Debates are all good and well, but I would appreciate some more directed help :]


I stand by my points

SKDs are not designed for weight trainers and are not, from anecdotal evidence and logic ideal for body composition

My advice is diet with carbs



imy said:


> guys,google search black seed oil,its got alot of muscle building properties,example-essential amino acids,protien,iron,sodium,carbs,calcium and the list goes on..... scientists are still discovering new ingrediants in it.its the secret to ll cool js body and the guy looks gud,he's in his forties now,iv got a few lads on it now from my gym,they said you right mate,cud help in fat loss as aswell and build lean muscle,its got no known side affects,i know this has got nothing to do with this thread,just trying to be helpfull in your quest to build muscle,its only available on the net,have a luck at least,its got alot of history behind it,


That is IMO irrelevant/poor/incorrect info

-The fats are omega 6 heavy and our diet is high in them anyway (around 60% of the oil)

-Seed aminos will be removed from the oil and even then they are not a high ratio of EAA

-It will not directly burn fat

-LL cool J is not a reference in the bodybuilding world and infact I lol'd at that bit

Whilst I appreciate you are trying to help its not correct and sounds like a marketing leaftlet you were given


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

Lost Soul said:


> From all your posts paul you state you diet on carbs and their importance, but im not even going down that route.


 So all my posts i advocate carbs do i LS i state i use carb cycling different thing you will find...

the point i am trying to make to you is that on many occasions other members have said such a statement as fact and you have been down on them like a ton of bricks, you can train and diet on SKD i have done this in the past and so have some of the guys and girls i train you can believe it if you want still won't change that saying you cannot do it is wrong....


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## Lost Soul (Apr 5, 2008)

Pscarb said:


> So all my posts i advocate carbs do i LS i state i use carb cycling different thing you will find...


Im sure you know I am aware of that, although cycling carbs is a fundemental part of the CKD hence why i said it



> the point i am trying to make to you is that on many occasions other members have said such a statement as fact and you have been down on them like a ton of bricks, you can train and diet on SKD i have done this in the past and so have some of the guys and girls i train you can believe it if you want still won't change that saying you cannot do it is wrong..


Very few things are fact in BBing, hence why discussion forums exist 

Im happy to listen to why an SKD is ideal for weight training, a simple list is fine

anyway there is a similar thread going on for round 2 if you care to join me 

(ps I have too made some 'factual statements' based on opinion  )

http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/losing-weight/36028-help-needed-keto-diet.html


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

i never said SKD was ideal for training i said you can weight train whilst on SKD as well you know as you said you cannot 

I base my advice on years of putting it into practice as i have found that as with most diet methods they don't react in the human body as they do on paper, hence why i always state i have seen and done a certain method myself.

if you are saying you have done SKD and was not able to weight train then that is fair enough but if you are just quoting what a paper or article says then i suggest you try it in the real world..... 

as for round 2 i am up for a debate mate as you know as long as you don't insist we take it to PM half way through


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## Lost Soul (Apr 5, 2008)

Pscarb said:


> as for round 2 i am up for a debate mate as you know as long as you don't insist we take it to PM half way through


Sure I will let you take it up with lyle instead and address his points 

Taken from:

*The Ketogenic Diet: A Complete Guide for the Dieter & the Practitioner*

*Lyle Mcdonald (2000)*

P85<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" /><o></o>

<o> </o>

Although the details of exercise physiology are discussed in chapter 18 through 20, it is a<o></o>

fact that a ketogenic diet can not sustain high intensity exercise for very long. This mandates<o></o>

that carbohydrates be introduced into the SKD. Chapters 10 through 12 include discussions of<o></o>

muscle glycogen and depletion as well as the modifications to the SKD which can be made to<o></o>

sustain exercise while maintaining ketosis.<o></o>

<o> </o>

P120<o></o>

<o> </o>

In addition to the standard ketogenic diet (SKD), this book also details two modifications<o></o>

which have been made to the SKD. As discussed in forthcoming chapters on exercise, a SKD<o></o>

cannot sustain high-intensity exercise performance such as weight training or high-intensity<o></o>

aerobic training and carbohydrates must be integrated to the SKD in some fashion.<o></o>

There are two primary types of 'modified ketogenic diets' which incorporate carbohydrate<o></o>

intake within the structure of a SKD. The first of these is the Targeted Ketogenic Diet (TKD) in<o></o>

which individuals consume carbohydrates around exercise only. This allows for a maintenance of<o></o>

exercise performance and glycogen resynthesis without interrupting ketosis for long periods of<o></o>

time.<o></o>

The second type of 'modified ketogenic diet' is the Cyclical Ketogenic Diet or CKD. The<o></o>

CKD alternates periods of a ketogenic diet (generally 5-6 days) with periods of high carbohydrate<o></o>

intake (1-2 days).<o></o>

Typically the TKD is used by those individuals who either can not or will not perform the<o></o>

longer carb-load of the cyclical ketogenic diet (CKD) or by individuals who are just starting<o></o>

exercise programs and are not ready to perform the amount of exercise needed to make the CKD<o></o>

work.<o></o>

The CKD is typically aimed at individuals who are more advanced in terms of their exercise<o></o>

programs (i.e. bodybuilders) due to the high volume and intensity of training needed to optimize<o></o>

the diet. Before discussing the TKD and CKD in chapters 11 and 12, some general comments are<o></o>

made regarding glycogen levels and rates of glycogen depletion. This chapter discusses glycogen<o></o>

levels and depletion, topics which apply to both the TKD and CKD.<o></o>

<o> </o>

P123<o></o>

<o> </o>

Glycogen levels in muscle vary depending on a number of factors including diet and training<o></o>

status. While there is a small amount of glycogen resynthesized following exercise even if no<o></o>

carbohydrates are consumed, the amount is insignificant and will not be able to sustain exercise<o></o>

performance for more than a few workouts.<o></o>

Since high-intensity activity such as weight training can only use carbohydrate as fuel, a<o></o>

SKD will not be able to sustain high-intensity exercise performance. This mandates that<o></o>

carbohydrate be introduced into the SKD without disrupting the effects of ketosis. The two<o></o>

primary ways to introduce carbohydrate to the SKD are the CKD, which allows a period of high<o></o>

carbohydrate consumption lasting from 24-48 hours every week, or the TKD where the dieter<o></o>

consumes carbohydrates around training.<o></o>

<o> </o>

P215

<o></o>

Regardless of the ultimate cause of fatigue during weight training, glycogen depletion has<o></o>

the potential to decrease performance through one of several mechanisms. Until more research<o></o>

is done, we can only speculate as to the exact cause of fatigue. For the purpose of the ketogenic<o></o>

diet, the exact cause of fatigue is more an academic question than a practical one. It is a basic<o></o>

physiological fact that Type II fibers require glycogen to function optimally. Therefore, a SKD<o></o>

will eventually decrease performance as well as inhibit muscle growth. Individuals who wish to<o></o>

weight train on a ketogenic diet will have to consume carbohydrates at some point.<o></o>


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

so in response to my question of if you have tried it or you are going on papers from other the answer is the latter one then??

i have seen many men and women diet on SKD for 11 weeks whilst training and performing cardio without consuming carbs, i have seen this with my own eyes and i have seen these people then carb up and compete so you are saying this cannot be done?

In 2004 i competed and won my local show in the last 6 weeks i used a SKD diet and did not use any carbs that would take me out of ketosis yet i still trained and did cardio granted i was weaker than normal but i did it myself or was i dreaming??

please LS tell me about your practical experiance with not being able to train whilst on SKD i really would love to hear it, is this round 2??


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

so i have been reading up on a few sites about Lyle's theory's and it seems that is what they are theory's i get the distinct impression the he has taken the atkins diet (SKD) and added some carbs around PWO then called it the TKD although he does not say you cannot train using the SKD as you have stated LS he says you cannot train with SKD at a high intensity but you can train.....

this is a snippet from one site speaking of the SKD.....

Lyle has expanded upon the low-carb theories of Dr. Atkins, with an eye toward weight training. He warns that the standard Atkin's style low carb will hurt your weight training after a fairly short period of time as there's not enough muscle glycogen to fuel a strong workout not long after beginning a ketosis-based diet. *Others disagree, so again it appears to be an individual thing to test for yourself.*

the section in bold means personel experiance you might want to try it some time.... 

from my own experiance this is not the best way to go for muscle growth but you can certainly train using the method...


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## adesign (Jun 10, 2008)

If you read back you will find that in some form I stated I wanted to move onto a TKD, and was asking about sensible pre/post work out carbs, in what form/time period should be taken. Yes I have researched but everything is conflicted.

Also if im doing a 5 day split I will be spending a lot of time outside ketosis, will this still be effective?

Thank you :]


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## Lost Soul (Apr 5, 2008)

Paul

I read the book about 5 years ago, tried it, lost energy, muscle and the will to live.

I dont mind if you want to debunk the theory but end of the day I will go on what lyle presents backed up byt the 150-200 references used in the book

I honestly doubt you will find anyone who beleievs or advocates SKDs and bodybuilding but each to their own though 

Adesign

This book is good mate

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Ketogenic-Diet-Complete-Dieter-Practitioner/dp/0967145600/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1215317553&sr=1-1

it will get you thinking on the carbs you can use, the theory behind them and if you feel TKD, CKD or something else suits you


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

LS it is not a matter of me debunking the theory it is me disagreeing with the fact you said you cannot train while following this diet which is wrong i and many others have done it...

believe what you want mate that is everyones choice but don't blow off my opinion of it just because you do not agree, i have seen it work yet i would not recommend it long term as nowadays thee are better ways to do things...


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

No you are not GG... as long as you replace the carbs with fats you won't drop energy you and many others have done this


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## Lost Soul (Apr 5, 2008)

Greekgoddess said:


> Am I the only person who can go low/zero carb and still feel full of energy, as I normally am?
> 
> In the past I followed zero carb diets for weeks before a contest. In the long run I lost too much muscle by not replacing the carbs with good fats and high protein intake and having too low a calorie intake . I did not lose strength or energy in training though.
> 
> At the moment I am carb cycling, have kept the good fats and high protein, and it is working. I am keeping the muscle, losing the bodyfat and feel great, with tons of energy.


The brain loves ketones once you are there life is A OK in terms of mood, mental energy

Literature has shown women can lower carbs and calories further as % of their maintenance TDEE than men before they lose muscle, strength and lower metabolic rate

Paul is this something you have thoughts on?


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## Slamdog (Jun 11, 2007)

Lost Soul said:


> Paul
> 
> This book is good mate
> 
> ...


just had a look at it.... 60 quid... anyone have the pdf?


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## Lost Soul (Apr 5, 2008)

Slamdog said:


> just had a look at it.... 60 quid... anyone have the pdf?


yes but that would be wrong to send it out and break copyright 

it can though be collected from http://www.anonymousbodybuilding.com/ebooks.html

for those with no morals or feeling the 'credit crunch'

you dont though get the hard bound version 

PM me if you get stuck and i will try and find more info for you


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## Chris4Pez1436114538 (Sep 3, 2007)

Hi i have gone onto that web site as this is a book i would like to read but again have not got the £60 to spend on a book, so can anyone PM me a copy of the PDF please


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

I have myself gone on the Atkins diet and trained.

I didnt really get into full blown ketosis, but I will share my experiances here.

First of all I love the keto type diets, I end up not being as hungry, I am full of energy and my one rep max does not change, with any lift.

I do train on a keto diet and any diet, I have always trained.

But, here is what I do notice besides fat loss.

I have read Lyle's book, I did not agree with everything he writes, but here goes.

On a keto diet after I am in it, I notice no loss in strength with the exception of stamina, I will lose reps but not strength, it is like the energy is there for the first half of the set, but I tend to die early, I can still about get the same reps, but not at the end.

As far as muscle loss, I did not notice this, I did notice some muscle fullness but that is expected with a keto diet being depleted anyway.

Another thing I noticed was some freaky bad smells, this was about week 6 or 8, and I honestly dont like that smell I was getting, it was funky.

I also noticed some stalling, this I suspect either had to do with cortisol, or thyroid, or a combination of both.

I started adding back in the carbs very slowly and weight loss started back.

Keto diets work well for those that are kind of pudgy, I would not recommend them for contest preperations, I would recommend them for those that dont lift weights, have known many to have alot of success with this.

Only problem is most guys that lift weights with any intensity they usually are sugar burners, one might be able to get the energy calories from fats, I suspect beings that carbs bloat me and then I crave them that the lower carbs in my diet probably keep me from getting fatter.

This might be due to age too.

My 9 year old daughter is very active and can live on sugar and highly processed carbs, I can not.


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## Lost Soul (Apr 5, 2008)

Nice insight scott

what would be your ratios (P/C/F) as a guideline for the following:

1 - If you gave up all forms of training and live a sedentry lifestyle

2 - If you took to powerlifting (on and off training days in you wish)

3 - 200mtrs sprinter (track and field athlete)

No need to go too in depth, just jot a few numbers


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Lost Soul said:


> Nice insight scott
> 
> what would be your ratios (P/C/F) as a guideline for the following:
> 
> ...


I would not be able to give you ratios.

I would add in carbohydrate re-feed days instead of every day carbs.

Now this is for the person that wants to lose some fat.

After all once target weight is met, then carbs would be added in very slowly at the same time as fats would be reduced.

I added in the equivilant of 10 grams of carbs for about 3 to 5 days then added in another 10 grams, in the form of apples.

I started losing again once I added in the carbs, and the terrible funky smell went away too.

To be honest, the worst thing was the smell, I could smell something terrible when I was sitting. Had a bad complex about that.

Consitpation was pretty bad too.

But, for every 4 pounds of bodyweight I lost on a keto diet there was 1" loss on the waist.

Zone diet was very nice and healthy but I lost 1" for every 5 pounds of bodyweight.

Only diffrence was this.

Keto diet I was about 20 lbs heavier but 10 years older.

I was not useing gear at the time so that was not a factor.

I can honestly say fat loss was superior on keto diet over zone, but I could not stay on it, it stalled at like 6 or 8 weeks.

Zone diet I just kept losing all the way till I got to the point I had to add more carbs as I just kept losing weight.

I was pretty shreaded back then, but I got down to 163 pounds, looked skinny in clothes but great with not clothes.

Also had unlimited energy and actually looked younger.

That is a great diet.


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## Lost Soul (Apr 5, 2008)

Nice one scott, thanks for your thoughts


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

i do agree that this type of diet is not best for competing bodybuilders (although i have carried it out in 2004 but then i did not know as much as i do now) BUT i dont agree that you cannot still train with weights whilst following it.

i do also believe that it is better suited to women who train, this is one of the most common diets i give to most of the women i coach even if it is just to get the ball rolling


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## adesign (Jun 10, 2008)

> energy is there for the first half of the set, but I tend to die early, I can still about get the same reps, but not at the end.


I find the exact same thing and I smell really bad, mainly in the mornings. I think I will try a TKD now for a while but as I train 5 days I might target them in at circuit training days first. That reasonable?


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## adesign (Jun 10, 2008)

I just got home from an hours intense circuit training, didn't go for the carbs though just a mouthful of cocunut oil, not that nice! Lost another 2lb's this week though so thats cool.


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## adesign (Jun 10, 2008)

Well when I first started, 42" jeans were tight. Now I can happily fit into my older 34" jeans! Seem to be lossing the inches but mass is consistantly around 90kg and bf% around 20% which I now longer take the slightest notice of!


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## Slamdog (Jun 11, 2007)

I have to say an skd is looking attractive to me at the moment although i'm not in the correct frame of mind to change things at the moment. reading scotts posts as well as the book it seems to be a possible match for me as a sedentary older man. I'm going to keep reading for now.

well done adesign... just clarify how long you have been on the diet for me please? 42-34 is a fair drop in size...


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## darkstar (Jan 6, 2007)

hackskii said:


> I would not be able to give you ratios.
> 
> I would add in carbohydrate re-feed days instead of every day carbs.
> 
> ...


That is exactly the diet i need then im freaking shreaded at 160 and i love it.

I feel light and nice .

Its easy to do anything except move giant / heavy objects .


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## adesign (Jun 10, 2008)

Well I started strictly on 27/5/08, so 6 weeks and 1 day ago. But I hadnt tried on them 42" jeans for properly for maybe around a month before that. Just chucked them at the back of my cupboard and called them the progress jeans. I dont have much breathing room on the 36" but they are wearable. I haven't cheated slightly at all since 6 weeks ago, the only cheat I would consider was a few double vodkas and diet coke on a night out. Just strange how my mass and bf% hasnt dropped all that much since (started off at 96kg). But as long as the clothes are fitting Im happy!

I have decided to have a night out next Friday (vodka diet coke) and a day of any carbs I want. Shall then give a TKD a go and see how that progresses.

I hope it just wasnt because my clothes have grown!!


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## Slamdog (Jun 11, 2007)

fair play mate... 6 weeks is pretty rapid...

are you getting any of the sides mentioned connected with keto diets (smell, light head etc)?


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

6" in 6 weeks is good.


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## adesign (Jun 10, 2008)

Thanks guys! I did go from a student taking all sorts of chemicals and daily take aways to completely cold turkey, strict diet and daily training but that wasn't the 'conceptualized me' but it was the current (at the time) me so to get to the person I wanted the change had to be made. Maybe that drastic change had some part in the progress?

I do get the smell, my niece who is only 12 weeks will turn her head when I try to kiss her in the mornings lol. Also I get very light headed at times, when I dont get the right amount of fats in mostly. I have to go urinate a stupid amount of times and some days I do need a load of caffine for energy (again when my fat intake is off for the day).

Keep chewing gum at hand as it will temporary mask the mouth ordurs. Take in plenty of fats and water for the light headedness and I guess urinating that amount helps clear the system 

I find that with the 6 meals a day routine with high fats, moderate protein I never feel hungry so I never get tempted to eat anything that is not part of the diet. Even if I am making pizza's for hours a week or wondering around Tescos sweet section. I would definatly get some cocunut oil if your going to do this as I find it very effective for quick digesting energy and getting the healthy fat intake.


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## darkstar (Jan 6, 2007)

If i could only quit red wine .

Keep your game on


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## adesign (Jun 10, 2008)

Went clothes shopping yesterday. Can now comfortable fit into size 34" jeans/shorts with some baggage. Although my weight has gone up to 94kg from 90kg. Haven't checked my bodyfat%. Did have a weekend off but it has seemed to have done wonders!


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## adesign (Jun 10, 2008)

Just got checked today. Apparently Im now around 84kg with 17%bf. Can now wear 32inch jeans but prefer 34 

These stats are all over the place though. When I first started training towards the end of May I was 96kg with 23.3%bf IIRC. Went down, then up a bit, then down, up a tad and this is the latest. None of it really bothers me I feel and look a lot better that beats stats.

Started kickboxing again recently with twice a week and also doing 1.5 mile run every morning while my food is cooking. Will post pre and post pictures when im ready.


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## strongasanox (Mar 14, 2008)

im on a keto diet , have been 4 about 5 days, lost nearly 5 pound,

as far as energy goes, i feel more energised today than i have in a long time, trainings still going good, my heads alot clearer

im one of those people who just dont get on with loads of carbs in my diet, if i eat lots of potato, my stomach starts to look like mash potato,

i m eating spinach with mosts meals (thats because i seen popeye build loads of muscle whilst eating spinich) any way things are going good so far:thumbup1:


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## Ribeye (Aug 2, 2007)

although nowhere near as experienced as some other poster i will just say that i have trained whilst in ketosis with no loss of strength just reps like somebody said before. Its weird you are repping away and then all of a sudden your muscles just gives up, you cannot lift anymore. But there is no soreness, or DOMS its okay to stay where you are at muscle wise and just lose fat (but that diet had better be 100% or its going to go the wrong way with the amount of fats you are eating). It has worked for me and i am off on it agian as of yesterday so i'll be in ketosis in a few days (check the sticks)

However the best thing from this thread is from Pscarb, do you know i never thought of freezing my shake to have as a dessert or something, what an awesome idea, one's going in the freezer right now for tommorrow, slurp! Thanks for that fella


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## adesign (Jun 10, 2008)

I tried that froozen shake soon as Pscarb mentioned it. Worst thing ever, had to wait for it to defrost so I could just drink it  You right about your muscles just give in. Noticed it big time today, was getting really ****ed off at myself because it just comes from no where.


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