# Are the natural pros's really natural?



## tomo8

I know all these pros do natural shows an say there natural, but are they?

obviously the shows test the athletes, dont some do lie detector tests etc?


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## griffo13

id say there as clean as the anyone in the tour de france...


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## shauny13

i don't believe they're 100% natural for a minute.


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## PHMG

they are natural in the sense that they use stuff that makes them appear to be....so no lol.


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## Winter

No, not at all but we can never know.


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## andyhuggins

depends what shows and proa you are talking about.


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## WillOdling

Winter said:


> No, not at all but we can never know.


Thats a strong statement


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## 36-26

I'd imagine that some are and some are not. I'd like to think most are and if not well then I'm happy to be unaware


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## Little stu

In America they don't test for individual substance cost to much now they hav lie detector test to take instead


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## lxm

just running test.....


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## zack amin

lxm said:


> just running test.....


its natural


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## DazUKM

id like to think so.. but.. :shrugs:


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## Huntingground

I think one of the main natural BB'ing shows this year was in Folkestone. Anyhow, there was a competitor at my gym and he looked awesome. I could swear he was on gear but who knows. Awesome genetics if he didn't take anything :rolleye:


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## justin case

the original question should be...are gear takers so terrified of someone natural who might have a better physique than them that they have to assume that that person also takes gear.


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## 44carl44

You can't tell me these guys are natural.

http://musclemania.com/


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## L11

justin case said:


> the original question should be...are gear takers so terrified of someone natural who might have a better physique than them that they have to assume that that person also takes gear.


In a world where olympic sprinters get caught taking performance enhancing drugs, I don't see why it would be unreasonable to suggest that 'natural' bodybuilders do aswell..


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## justin case

L11 said:


> In a world where olympic sprinters get caught taking performance enhancing drugs, I don't see why it would be unreasonable to suggest that 'natural' bodybuilders do aswell..


i totally agree with you, but i still think my point is valid.


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## Dead lee

44carl44 said:


> You can't tell me these guys are natural.
> 
> http://musclemania.com/


Quote -Adrain Childers hasn't feared the gym. At 6'3", 260 lbs. and carrying 23" guns

LOL 23 inch guns natural..


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## kingdale

justin case said:


> i totally agree with you, but i still think my point is valid.


Well if you totally agree it is a valid question.


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## justin case

kingdale said:


> Well if you totally agree it is a valid question.


lol


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## Brook877

L11 said:


> In a world where olympic sprinters get caught taking performance enhancing drugs, I don't see why it would be unreasonable to suggest that 'natural' bodybuilders do aswell..


Sprinters, shot putters, cyclists, all getting caught left right and center, there's boxers and rugby players coming on here for advice on cycles, I struggle to believe there's many natural sports professionals full stop, bodybuildings no different imo..


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## 36-26

44carl44 said:


> You can't tell me these guys are natural.
> 
> http://musclemania.com/


Apparently certain feds are better ie cleaner than others and Musclemania is one of the not so clean ones. WNBF is apparently as clean as you are gonna get but who knows


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## kingdale

Supposedly you can cheat lie detector tests so even that doesnt sound like a fool proof way. Even with tests they could just use stuff that gets out of your body quickly and be clean for the run up to the competition.


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## justin case

well the rewards of winning a natty bb contest are not really the same as an olympic event...so why would they do it for a cheap trophy, when an olympic athlete or tour de france cyclist can look forward to untold wealth.


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## Blinkey

I suppose it depends on what is tested for to be considered a natty. I am sure there are products with a very low detection rate


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## griffo13

justin case said:


> well the rewards of winning a natty bb contest are not really the same as an olympic event...so why would they do it for a cheap trophy, when an olympic athlete or tour de france cyclist can look forward to untold wealth.


who gives a fu*ck about a trophy..... its fuc*king winning that matters lol


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## 36-26

It really is the saddest thing of all time though to cheat in natty bodybuilding when there is regular bodybuilding there to enter that lets you use whatever you like, talk about needing your ego stroked, pathetic IMO


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## griffo13

Dead lee said:


> Quote -Adrain Childers hasn't feared the gym. At 6'3", 260 lbs. and carrying 23" guns
> 
> LOL 23 inch guns natural..


the only time he would see 23 is on the back of a bus....


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## L11

36-26 said:


> It really is the saddest thing of all time though to cheat in natty bodybuilding when there is regular bodybuilding there to enter that lets you use whatever you like, talk about needing your ego stroked, pathetic IMO


But it's easier to win when the other guys aren't cheating.


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## Natty.Solider

I know some 100% natural competitors. I know some natural competitors that use gear.


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## 36-26

L11 said:


> But it's easier to win when the other guys aren't cheating.


True and just reinforces my opinion


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## Dave 0511

there are plenty of natural cheats.... but plenty of truly natural freaks who get called cheats by others out of jealousy and disbelief.


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## Winter

WillOdling said:


> Thats a strong statement


I know.

I've seen drugs in lower levels of competition (powerlifting) and will only believe someone is not using it by showing me a test during his/her preparation.

This doesn't mean I don't agree or disagree with it, I just like to know the truth.


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## greekgod

to alot of natty's, using GH and slin is stlll natural, plus oral steriods dont count as juice becos u not injecting.... :whistling:


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## delhibuilder

Even i say to everyone im natual feel bad to say so but most belive me as ive been training for over 10 years

The posts abive making me feel guilty even though i dont compete hahaha

Anyway back on topic most are deffo not natural sometimes u can tell who is and thats the bottom of the winning order


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## Natty.Solider

greekgod said:


> to alot of natty's, using GH and slin is stlll natural, plus oral steriods dont count as juice becos u not injecting.... :whistling:


I know growth use is big in natural competitions at the moment for sure.


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## simonthepieman

ironically I think the Tour de France is a good analogy. A lot of the top people are bluffing, but also I think a good amount of them who you would accuse of being enhanced are genetic anomolies with great work ethics and dedication to their game who hand well with the users


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## rsd147

Whats the point in labelling it as Natural Bodybuilding when it isnt then! If it natural then dont take gear no matter what it is!


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## Bull Terrier

Some competitors are natural, but certainly a minority.

My friend and owner of gym where I train competed in national level shows (in Italy) both as a natural and on gear. When natural he used to come in at about 70kg (at a height of probably about 169cm or thereabouts). When on gear he'd come in at about 80kg, still without enough mass to really make a big splash. He tells me that just about all others were on gear, but a few were actually natural.

I guess you could say that he would have had maybe residual effects of AAS in him even when "off" for show, thus had a slight advantage over somebody who never used.


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## monkeybiker

36-26 said:


> It really is the saddest thing of all time though to cheat in natty bodybuilding when there is regular bodybuilding there to enter that lets you use whatever you like, talk about needing your ego stroked, pathetic IMO


This is exactly what I was thinking. From my understandind there is very little money to be made so they are only doing it to win by a cheat.


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## mattiasl

It is a complete mystery to me why you would even consider entering a natural bodybuilding competition using gear?


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## PHMG

mattiasl said:


> It is a complete mystery to me why you would even consider entering a natural bodybuilding competition using gear?


could be beneficial to someone trying to promote personal training as a natural. win natural comps using gear, clients think they can do it without.


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## mattiasl

PowerHouseMcGru said:


> could be beneficial to someone trying to promote personal training as a natural. win natural comps using gear, clients think they can do it without.


That is even more wrong!


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## PHMG

mattiasl said:


> That is even more wrong!


news flash mate. most people do things that are wrong to get money. they will shi.t on anyone to get it. come on. you and everyone knows this.

obv not right but thats life.


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## RascaL18

PowerHouseMcGru said:


> news flash mate. most people do things that are wrong to get money. they will shi.t on anyone to get it. come on. you and everyone knows this.
> 
> obv not right but thats life.


Money makes the world go round. We live in a society where people rob their grannies for a packet of **** and their mums purses for a curly wurly, would you deceive a clueless person to make a wage? @mattiasl people in sales departments daily.


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## johnnyg

there as natural as lance armstrong


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## sam2012

They're about as natural as polystyrene


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## PHMG

RascaL18 said:


> Money makes the world go round. We live in a society where people rob their grannies for a packet of **** and their mums purses for a curly wurly, would you deceive a clueless person to make a wage? @mattiasl people in sales departments daily.


yes i would. if people are willing to pay for something then id be stupid not to take the money. in the same way i am to look out for people doinnnthe same to me. ill get stung as much as the next person.


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## RascaL18

PowerHouseMcGru said:


> yes i would. if people are willing to pay for something then id be stupid not to take the money. in the same way i am to look out for people doinnnthe same to me. ill get stung as much as the next person.


I got done bum Umbargo Twinestharglo he told me my late uncle Robert died nd left me millions so I gave him my bank details to transfer it bu he robbed me


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## botchla

Greg Pitt

Layne Norton

Rob Riches

All filt(hy) liars.

Natural my ass.


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## zack amin

<<<<<<< reffer to avi


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## Blakard

Pretty sad there isn't a genuine natural competition in the world of bodybuilding.

Granted the athletes still have to put in incredible levels of sacrifice and dedication but they undermine their achievements by not being a full on natty.


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## tomo8

botchla said:


> Greg Pitt
> 
> Layne Norton
> 
> Rob Riches
> 
> All filt(hy) liars.
> 
> Natural my ass.


I dont think rob riches is a juice bomb, i reckon greg plitts done it, but hes smaller than he used to be.


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## Dave 0511

I have heard on good authority that Rob riches is not natty .


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## Cutandjacked

Doug Miller won the Yorton Cup and is a top natural pro (below). It's strictly drug tested. I believe he's natty. I'm natty and ppl have excused me of AAS use all the time. It's down to hard work like anything at the end of the day!


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## Cutandjacked

botchla said:


> Greg Pitt
> 
> Layne Norton
> 
> Rob Riches
> 
> All filt(hy) liars.
> 
> Natural my ass.


These guys are deffo natural, I know Rob, he's a great guy. Don't bash ppl that put in the work dude!


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## Milky

Anyone who says they are natty are, there word is there bond and l for one believe them.


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## Huntingground

Yep. about as natural as me.


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## Cutandjacked

Milky said:


> Anyone who says they are natty are, there word is there bond and l for one believe them.


Good on u milky. Some of these top natural pros put in ridiculous amounts of work to get that way, sometimes years and years of hard toil and sacrifice. With good genetics, diet and hard graft u can become a great natty and defy the odds. Ppl can clock sub 10 second 100m and jump nearly 9m, the human body is capable of great feats!


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## Milky

Cutandjacked said:


> Good on u milky. Some of these top natural pros put in ridiculous amounts of work to get that way, sometimes years and years of hard toil and sacrifice. With good genetics, diet and hard graft u can become a great natty and defy the odds. Ppl can clock sub 10 second 100m and jump nearly 9m, the human body is capable of great feats!


Let me explain what " sarcasm " is mate....

:lol:


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## Huntingground

Cutandjacked said:


> Good on u milky. Some of these top natural pros put in ridiculous amounts of work to get that way, sometimes years and years of hard toil and sacrifice. With good genetics, diet and hard graft u can become a great natty and defy the odds. Ppl can clock sub 10 second 100m and jump nearly 9m, the human body is capable of great feats!


Athletes who clock sub 10s are on gear mate.


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## justin case

ok can someone post a pic of a bodybuilder that everybody can agree is totally natural...or is there no such thing?


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## Cutandjacked

Milky said:


> Let me explain what " sarcasm " is mate....
> 
> :lol:


Lol u can't grasp that when u write it, sorry thought u were being serious. Natty status will always be subject to scrutiny in a sport where drug use is ubiquitous. At the end of the day if u set yourself limits, you will never achieve greatness. If u took steroids away from Arnie and Phil Heath, they would probably still have better physiques than anyone on this board. There are freaky natural pros out there, Doug Miller being one of them ^.


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## Huntingground

Let me make one thing clear : -

All pro boxers/athletes/footballers etc are on gear. Whether it be AAS, Slin, GH, stims etc, all are on gear.


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## Milky

Cutandjacked said:


> Lol u can't grasp that when u write it, sorry thought u were being serious. Natty status will always be subject to scrutiny in a sport where drug use is ubiquitous. At the end of the day if u set yourself limits, you will never achieve greatness. If u took steroids away from Arnie and Phil Heath, they would probably still have better physiques than anyone on this board. There are freaky natural pros out there, Doug Miller being one of them ^.


Hand on heart mate if one of the top natty boys told me they were then so be it, doesnt affect my karma in any way at all.

This place and some of the claims made in it make me a very sceptical bunny !

:whistling:


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## justin case

i'm going right off bodybuilding....lol


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## Cutandjacked

justin case said:


> the original question should be...are gear takers so terrified of someone natural who might have a better physique than them that they have to assume that that person also takes gear.


This^


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## 1010AD

I think when they enter BNBF , INBF or the WBNF then i would say you would have no choice but to be clean but that doesn't say they may of not used in the past years leading to the shows.


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## Huntingground

Cutandjacked said:


> This^


Why would I, at 280lbs, be terrified of a 180lber


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## crazypaver1




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## Cutandjacked

1010AD said:


> I think when they enter BNBF , INBF or the WBNF then i would say you would have no choice but to be clean but that doesn't say they may of not used in the past years leading to the shows.


Someone I know won the BNBF overall last year, went on to place 2nd in the Yorton lightweight. At like 80kg under its perfectly feasible to be natural. And tbf he was in better condition than 99% of ppl I've seen on this board. Haters will hate tho!


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## Cutandjacked

Huntingground said:


> Why would I, at 280lbs, be terrified of a 180lber


Not terrified of fighting them lol, just that there body is better naturally than that of an AAS user. Not judging you, but I've seen better natties @ a lighter weight, it's not all about sheer mass. Thr r guys in my gym who are 23st, lift the gym, have egos like houses, but never get in good condition. Whereas the natty that came 1st in UK was ripped and striated, every sinew of muscle popping out like 3D. That's something maybe an AAS user would be ****ed at. But at the end of the day, they just out worked the other guy!


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## Huntingground

Cutandjacked said:


> Not terrified of fighting them lol, just that there body is better naturally than that of an AAS user. Not judging you, but I've seen better natties @ a lighter weight, it's not all about sheer mass. Thr r guys in my gym who are 23st, lift the gym, have egos like houses, but never get in good condition. Whereas the natty that came 1st in UK was ripped and striated, every sinew of muscle popping out like 3D. That's something maybe an AAS user would be ****ed at. But at the end of the day, they just out worked the other guy!


Everybody has different goals. I want to look like Poundstone, 140KG and ripped. I am not worried about condition, I am not a BBer, I want to be strong, PLer.


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## Dux

Cutandjacked said:


> Not terrified of fighting them lol, just that there body is better naturally than that of an AAS user. Not judging you, but I've seen better natties @ a lighter weight, it's not all about sheer mass. Thr r guys in my gym who are 23st, lift the gym, have egos like houses, but never get in good condition. Whereas the natty that came 1st in UK was ripped and striated, every sinew of muscle popping out like 3D. That's something maybe an AAS user would be ****ed at. But at the end of the day, they just out worked the other guy!


Or maybe they just have completely and utterly different goals?


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## Dux

Huntingground said:


> Everybody has different goals. I want to look like Poundstone, 140KG and ripped. I am not worried about condition, I am not a BBer, I want to be strong, PLer.


Exactly this


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## Huntingground




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## Milky

Cutandjacked said:


> Someone I know won the BNBF overall last year, went on to place 2nd in the Yorton lightweight. At like 80kg under its perfectly feasible to be natural. And tbf he was in better condition than 99% of ppl I've seen on this board. Haters will hate tho!


Always tickles me this nonsense " better physique than most on here " who actually cares if you know someone who looks better than most on here ?

Do YOU look better than him ?

Do YOU look better than most on the board ?

Also how do you conclude as fact he " looks better " than most on the board ?

People asked if people were really natty not if they looked better.


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## Cutandjacked

Dux said:


> Or maybe they just have completely and utterly different goals?


That's true, but I thought the OP was about natty bodybuilding. There are great natties out there, and ppl saying like Rob Riches is using is just BS. He's trained for years, been sponsored by ON, is one of the most recognised faces in the fitness industry and his diet is insanely clean! Ppl jealous much?!


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## Cutandjacked

Huntingground said:


> Everybody has different goals. I want to look like Poundstone, 140KG and ripped. I am not worried about condition, I am not a BBer, I want to be strong, PLer.


That fair enough buddy, I'm not hating, jut hating on the natty haters lol!


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## Dux

Cutandjacked said:


> That's true, but I thought the OP was about natty bodybuilding. There are great natties out there, and ppl saying like Rob Riches is using is just BS. He's trained for years, been sponsored by ON, is one of the most recognised faces in the fitness industry and his diet is insanely clean! Ppl jealous much?!


It is, but the point that was being discussed was feeling terrified/intimidated by someone who had a better body than them.

Natural or not, if 2 people are training for totally different things why would 1 be scared of the other?


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## Cutandjacked

Dux said:


> It is, but the point that was being discussed was feeling terrified/intimidated by someone who had a better body than them.
> 
> Natural or not, if 2 people are training for totally different things why would 1 be scared of the other?


Someone posted that AAS users maybe ****ed if someone who is natty has a better physique than them, that's all. It just seems like this OP was designed to antagonise lol, everyone will have there views and I respect that. But I don't think we should judge if ppl say there natty, were essentially calling them big liars lol


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## Huntingground

Dux said:


> It is, but the point that was being discussed was feeling terrified/intimidated by someone who had a better body than them.
> 
> Natural or not, if 2 people are training for totally different things why would 1 be scared of the other?


I have yet to be terrified by a 180lber.


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## Huntingground

Cutandjacked said:


> That fair enough buddy, I'm not hating, jut hating on the natty haters lol!


I am 125KG at the moment, I need another 15KG to match Poundstone and another 100KG on my OHP ::


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## Dux

Huntingground said:


> I have yet to be terrified by a 180lber.


Me neither.

In fact I'll put money down that in an hour or so I'll launching a few head first out of the doors at work when they get a bit mouthy :lol:


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## Cutandjacked

I'm a 183lb lol... Oh dear!


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## zack amin

Cutandjacked said:


> That's true, but I thought the OP was about natty bodybuilding. There are great natties out there, and ppl saying like Rob Riches is using is just BS. He's trained for years, been sponsored by ON, is one of the most recognised faces in the fitness industry and his diet is insanely clean! Ppl jealous much?!


ive never for once believed rob riches is el naturale, if hes natural im ronnie coleman


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## justin case

well these cheats must have a great system between them to keep beating lie detector tests.


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## andyhuggins

It all depends which fed you compete in. They have different rules.


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## Cutandjacked

zack amin said:


> ive never for once believed rob riches is el naturale, if hes natural im ronnie coleman


IMO, this is perfectly doable naturally. Like I said I know rob he's given me some good advice. He's very staunchly anti-drugs!!!


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## Cutandjacked

Also Rob is getting back on stage next year in the UK, so u can always ask him if u bump into him lol


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## zack amin

Cutandjacked said:


> IMO, this is perfectly doable naturally. Like I said I know rob he's given me some good advice. He's very staunchly anti-drugs!!!


sorry mate just done believe it, dont get me wrong he trains hard he looks good id never hate on him respect for what hes accomplished, but i still never believe hes natural, and if your claiming to be natural then being very strongly anti-drugs is kinda part of the game lol, i know natural competitors and well lets say there not natural either, remeber its not just about aas, when it comes down to it theres alot more drugs involved in this sport for you to be considered a natural or not


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## Cutandjacked

zack amin said:


> sorry mate just done believe it, dont get me wrong he trains hard he looks good id never hate on him respect for what hes accomplished, but i still never believe hes natural, and if your claiming to be natural then being very strongly anti-drugs is kinda part of the game lol, i know natural competitors and well lets say there not natural either, remeber its not just about aas, when it comes down to it theres alot more drugs involved in this sport for you to be considered a natural or not


I appreciate what your saying dude. I know of fitness models who use AAS and other compounds, just know rob and believe he's natural. I'm planning to do a WBFF fitness show which is tested in 2014, part of my journal 'the road to wbff 2014' of w/e the f**k it's called!!


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## empzb

zack amin said:


> sorry mate just done believe it, dont get me wrong he trains hard he looks good id never hate on him respect for what hes accomplished, but i still never believe hes natural, and if your claiming to be natural then being very strongly anti-drugs is kinda part of the game lol, i know natural competitors and well lets say there not natural either, remeber its not just about aas, when it comes down to it theres alot more drugs involved in this sport for you to be considered a natural or not


I'd say that was acheivable natty. Doesn't look to have much mass and typical juice showing areas don't look over developed. Give me 5 years and I'll get to that size no worries.


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## Adam K

They're is a great documentary that highlights steroid usage and how a majority of athletes and models are taking something, check it out it's called 'bigger stronger faster' its really down the middle line look at it, great insight and quite entertaining.


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## Milky

@Cutandjacked

I say this with all due respect mate but l would never, no matter what want to look like your mate.

I would rather carry some chub than look like that so the " he looks better than most " comment IMO isnt true.


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## zack amin

empzb said:


> I'd say that was acheivable natty. Doesn't look to have much mass and typical juice showing areas don't look over developed. Give me 5 years and I'll get to that size no worries.


theres not miuch size there lol, ive used and do use gear when you do you just get a feel for who you feel is natural and who you feel is not, hes in good nick, but natural i dont believe, growth,slin,hgh,dieuretic,t3,t4 can all be used and some people still consider natural


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## zack amin

Cutandjacked said:


> I appreciate what your saying dude. I know of fitness models who use AAS and other compounds, just know rob and believe he's natural. I'm planning to do a WBFF fitness show which is tested in 2014, part of my journal 'the road to wbff 2014' of w/e the f**k it's called!!


yeh im followin your journal bud, wish you the best


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## Milky

zack amin said:


> theres not miuch size there lol, ive used and do use gear when you do you just get a feel for who you feel is natural and who you feel is not, hes in good nick, but natural i dont believe, growth,slin,hgh,dieuretic,t3,t4 can all be used and some people still consider natural


Looking at his shoulders / traps and size l do believe he is natural TBH.

I dont actually care for his physique but respect to him for getting in that condition and stepping on stage.


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## Zara-Leoni

Cutandjacked said:


> Also Rob is getting back on stage next year in the UK, so u can always ask him if u bump into him lol


Thats a great idea!! Why did nobody think of that? FAR better than wasting all that money on piss tests and polygraphs lol :lol:

Mate, just because you may have had a conversation or two with someone who makes their money out of being a high profile natural bodybuilder does not mean you know catagorically whether they are cheating or not. Jesus Christ, look at Lance Armstrong.... how many people believed catagorically without doubt that he was squeakier than squeaky?? OBVIOUSLY people are going to claim to every single person they speak to that they are staunchly anti drugs. Their career depends on it! You have no proof, only their word, personally I'm not naiive enough for that to be enough....

I'll say this. I know some decent natural bodybuilders who I have helped with diet/supps side of things and trained alongside who are 100% natural and extremely careful what they do. I also know people who hold titles and/or compete and are as far from natural as you can get. This is not opinion, this is cold hard fact. I've had conversations with one about it, others I know who sells them their gear and what they are using. In addition to gear use, despite bullshit propaganda to scare ppl, the federations do not, and cannot test for GH or other peptides.

There are drugs you can take (how ironic lol) to get you through the lie detector.

It is very possible to have all AAS out your system by the time you do a show so you dont fail a piss test.

Put it this way mate..... *The IFBB is a TESTED federation*. They do random testing on people who place at Europeans/Worlds etc. The athletes all know this and tailor their prep accordingly so that things have cleared before the show. Trust me, they DO test the athletes.

If these guys can manipulate their gear use to pass a test, do not try and tell me that "natural" bodybuilders cannot do it.


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## justin case

pity there aren't any professional nattys on here to argue their corner.


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## davesays

The WBFF don't even test lol


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## Cutandjacked

Zara-Leoni said:


> Thats a great idea!! Why did nobody think of that? FAR better than wasting all that money on piss tests and polygraphs lol :lol:
> 
> Mate, just because you may have had a conversation or two with someone who makes their money out of being a high profile natural bodybuilder does not mean you know catagorically whether they are cheating or not. Jesus Christ, look at Lance Armstrong.... how many people believed catagorically without doubt that he was squeakier than squeaky?? OBVIOUSLY people are going to claim to every single person they speak to that they are staunchly anti drugs. Their career depends on it! You have no proof, only their word, personally I'm not naiive enough for that to be enough....
> 
> I'll say this. I know some decent natural bodybuilders who I have helped with diet/supps side of things and trained alongside who are 100% natural and extremely careful what they do. I also know people who hold titles and/or compete and are as far from natural as you can get. This is not opinion, this is cold hard fact. I've had conversations with one about it, others I know who sells them their gear and what they are using. In addition to gear use, despite bullshit propaganda to scare ppl, the federations do not, and cannot test for GH or other peptides.
> 
> There are drugs you can take (how ironic lol) to get you through the lie detector.
> 
> It is very possible to have all AAS out your system by the time you do a show so you dont fail a piss test.
> 
> Put it this way mate..... *The IFBB is a TESTED federation*. They do random testing on people who place at Europeans/Worlds etc. The athletes all know this and tailor their prep accordingly so that things have cleared before the show. Trust me, they DO test the athletes.
> 
> If these guys can manipulate their gear use to pass a test, do not try and tell me that "natural" bodybuilders cannot do it.


I just believe rob, naive or not, if u follow his progress ull see that his diet is always on point 24/7 he never lapses. I have a similar build to rob and believe it's perfectly doable naturally, he's not huge just great combo of aesthetics/shape proportion etc.


----------



## Cutandjacked

davesays said:


> The WBFF don't even test lol


Yh but I'm gonna do it natty lol


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## Zara-Leoni

Cutandjacked said:


> I just believe rob, naive or not, if u follow his progress ull see that his diet is always on point 24/7 he never lapses. *I have a similar build to rob* and believe it's perfectly doable naturally, he's not huge just great combo of aesthetics/shape proportion etc.


Really?

Who's that in your avi then?


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## L11

TBH I believe this Rob guy is natty.. If I was on AAS and I looked like that I'd want a refund.


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## Cutandjacked

Zara-Leoni said:


> Really?
> 
> Who's that in your avi then?


Lol, I just posted some pics in my journal 'road to wbff'. I said were similar build weight etc, his conditioning for his shows is superb tho.


----------



## Huntingground

Cutandjacked said:


> Lol, I just posted some pics in my journal 'road to wbff'. I said were similar build weight etc, his conditioning for his shows is superb tho.


You are coming across as anti-gear? Why? Terrified that the gear users are massively superior to you in the gym


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## C.Hill

Huntingground said:


> Terrified that the gear users are massively superior to you in the gym


They are


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## Zara-Leoni

Cutandjacked said:


> Lol, I just posted some pics in my journal 'road to wbff'. I said were similar build weight etc, his conditioning for his shows is superb tho.


No offence mate, but the physique in the avi picture you just took down was nothing like his..... you might be similar dimensions, but thats not the same thing at all.


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## Cutandjacked

Huntingground said:


> You are coming across as anti-gear? Why? Terrified that the gear users are massively superior to you in the gym


Not at all mate, AAS use or not is a personal decision and I respect that. We're all trying to build our best physique, gear or otherwise.


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## Cutandjacked

Zara-Leoni said:


> No offence mate, but the physique in the avi picture you just took down was nothing like his..... you might be similar dimensions, but thats not the same thing at all.


I meant weight, not like a replica physique. Like others said before, he's not overly big, just aesthetic. Do 175lb really need to take AAS or other compounds


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## Zara-Leoni

Cutandjacked said:


> I meant weight, not like a replica physique. Like others said before, he's not overly big, just aesthetic. Do 175lb really need to take AAS or other compounds


Whether they "need" to depends entirely on whether they want to. Everybody has a genetic limit to their potential and some people wish to pass that. Also, 175lb? Depends whether they're tall or short.

It's entirely down to personal choice, one which nobody has any right to question.

What we DO have a right to question though, is people claiming to be natural when they are nothing of the sort.


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## Zara-Leoni

There's a "natty" member on here who competes, who used to buy her winstrol off a mate of mine lol....


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## justin case

i got pulled up the other day by someone who reckoned i was making up the amount of disbelief about nattys being natty.....wonder who that was?.....lol


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## Cutandjacked

justin case said:


> i got pulled up the other day by someone who reckoned i was making up the amount of disbelief about nattys being natty.....wonder who that was?.....lol


Lol I hold my hands up to that mate. I didn't realise there was as much skepticism as their actually is. The line between natty/not natty seems blurred ATM.eg guys who don't do AAS but use like stims/diuretics etc.


----------



## Lockon

Real Natural's:

Matt Ogus










Ryan Doris










Mischa Janiec one of the biggest naturals i have seen but even at 4-6% bf he shrinks like mad:



















Natural Mr.Olympia? I doubt. On stage with 19+ inch arms? @4% BF? Really?


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## 36-26

It's a shame that so many cheat in natty bodybuilding though. If someone really wanted to stay natty and wanted to compete, then they have to compete against cheats who have a big advantage over them. What I'm saying is that it's sad that true natty's can't have their own even playing field in which to compete in the sport they love.


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## 36-26

Lockon said:


> Real Natural's:
> 
> Matt Ogus
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ryan Doris
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mischa Janiec one of the biggest naturals i have seen but even at 4-6% bf he shrinks like mad:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Natural Mr.Olympia? I doubt. On stage with 19+ inch arms? @4% BF? Really?


That Ryan Doris has a cracking physique and for that reason I hate to say I doubt if he is natty, I'd love to be wrong though


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## Lockon

36-26 said:


> That Ryan Doris has a cracking physique and for that reason I hate to say I doubt if he is natty, I'd love to be wrong though


I think he's natural his weight never goes up or down drastically he's always 10-14lb over his contest bodyweight.


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## Cutandjacked

36-26 said:


> That Ryan Doris has a cracking physique and for that reason I hate to say I doubt if he is natty, I'd love to be wrong though


Ryan doris and matt ogus have superb physiques I agree. They pretty much all weigh under 200lbs so it is feasible for them to be natty. Jim Cordova weighed like 175lb @ one point and looked superb. I believe it's possible, but everyone is entitled to their own opinion on the matter.


----------



## Natty.Solider

Cutandjacked I think your being naive. Sorry mate. I don't know how involved you are with natural BBing but the way Zara spelled it out for you is the reality of the situation - like it or not. I won't take gear, but thats also the same reason I will never compete, because I know the playing fields will never be level for people like me.


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## 36-26

Cutandjacked said:


> Ryan doris and matt ogus have superb physiques I agree. They pretty much all weigh under 200lbs so it is feasible for them to be natty. Jim Cordova weighed like 175lb @ one point and looked superb. I believe it's possible, but everyone is entitled to their own opinion on the matter.


175lb is one thing 200lb is something else altogether, you'll actually find I'm a big fan of Jim Cordova from previous posts. I believe a great physique like Jim can be achieved natty or at least I hope so. The amount of muscle I don't think is the problem to be honest, I think the conditioning is the hard part while retaining the mass so weight isn't really a good indicator IMO


----------



## simonthepieman

I do have this feeling that Rob Riches is one of those horrible people who are naturally gifted.

The weight he lifts when he tries to, I'd expect him to be much bigger if on gear. Especially as he training a very athodox BB way


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## Alex_Tait

You guys think Cordova's physique is achievable natural? I understand that he doesn't weigh that much but he has a really good body structure and shape to his muscles.


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## Cutandjacked

Natty.Solider said:


> Cutandjacked I think your being naive. Sorry mate. I don't know how involved you are with natural BBing but the way Zara spelled it out for you is the reality of the situation - like it or not. I won't take gear, but thats also the same reason I will never compete, because I know the playing fields will never be level for people like me.







Do you believe a guy like Doug then. He's got a very good work ethic and I believe he's natural. People say its impossible to achieve a physique akin to this without drugs, but I disagree. If Phil Heath were natty, he would probably look similar to this, if not bigger. Same muscle bellies and insertions, just much more scaled down. There are genetic freaks out there and that combined with hard work, very clean diet, supplementation, sleep, hard training etc I believe it can be achieved. Feel free to disagree, it's just my opinion!


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## gummyp

Josh Hyaduck is natural afaik.

People think he isn't due how shredded he looks in photos but he can't maintain it and doesn't weigh a lot. Becomes complete fat bastard when bulking


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## Papa Lazarou

davesays said:


> The WBFF don't even test lol


Quoted for the truth - even their chairman recently stated this LOL


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## Cutandjacked

Papa Lazarou said:


> Quoted for the truth - even their chairman recently stated this LOL


I still want to enter a WBFF comp the year after next, naturally. If other guys are using PEDS then that's their decision. Might not be a level playing field, but a fitness show is easier than doing a bodybuilding show against an AAS user, you'd get blown out the water lol!


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## Papa Lazarou

Before reading this, remember Paul Dillett also used to be juiced up to the eyeballs. I May enter it next year myself since they openly admit they don't test. Same as IFBB really. Same shnizel another day!



> WBFF Director's Rant - "Juiced up or Natural - A Moral Dilemma?"
> 
> by Daryl Gazey
> 
> WBFF Director of Operations'
> 
> First and foremost, I owe a great deal of gratitude to all those who took the time away from their oatmeal and egg whites to read my last, somewhat lengthy rant about the political side of competition. My goal is to shoot from the hip here, knowing all to well that the people in front of me may catch a bullet or two but those who stand behind me (the WBFF) may revel in my/our viewpoints. Where do I gather my material from you ask? In the past couple of decades or so, concerns from 'would-be' competitors, seasoned competitors, spectators, promotors and die hard fans of our industry have always arose and left me scratching my head. Once the splinters were delicately extracted, I would do my due diligence to find the answers sought and then 'delicately' provide what I felt was an honest answer. Now I know that when I use the word 'honesty', a few feathers will ruffle and more than a few eyebrows will perch. What the heck does this have to do with honesty? Hang fire...I'm getting to it.
> 
> With the competitive fitness season finally upon us (dam you people who have year 'round sunshine!), questions and concerns are abounding. Valid questions that would apply to not only the WBFF but every organization's policies and procedures. I've responded ad nauseum to the "How come it's so expensive?" and the ever so popular "Is it drug tested?" inquiries. Hmmm...a couple of valid zingers huh? I'm sure more than a few contest promoters have wiped the sweat from their keyboards when responding to these requests.
> 
> So....why are we gouging you and how come the lady standing next to you weighs 230 and has shredded glutes and a 3 o'clock shadow? Let's draw our proverbial gun and fire off the first shot.
> 
> If they can't nail down the use/abuse/complement of performance enhancing substances in the Olympics (yes I'm referring to the 's' word), using stringent testing protocols and a hefty budget to do so, how the heck do you think "Bob's High School Auditorium Natural Bodybuilding, Figure and Rib Fest" is going to fare? Oh yes, but they do offer a 10 minute polygraph, a urinalysis, a signed consent form and they take a chunk of money from my entry form to do so. Hello? Any 9th grader who has access to the internet can fly past ANY and ALL of these doping control methods using the right strategy and informed choices. Is a 'natural' show natural? One could only hope that the appeal of a natural show is ONLY a reflection of the moral ethics of it's participants. That is the ONLY thing that will keep a natural show truly drug-free. But, in the spirit of competition, the smell of victory is all too strong for those athletes that want to 'win at all costs. What's next for those who 'gear up' to compete naturally? Perhaps claiming a disability to garnish a gold in the Special Olympics?
> 
> It's inarguable that those who choose to compete with pharmaceutical assistance vs those who do not, poses a huge dilemma to any organization that presses for 'fairness and honesty' amongst its athletes. Does the WBFF drug test it's participants? In short..no we do not. Absurd right? Do we condone or advocate the involvement of anabolic agents or fat loss products. Well again, that doesn't matter if we do or we don't. I know (and you probably do as well) that people will ingest, inject, inhale, implant and for the most part, do what they feel is necessary to 'win at all costs'. With a team of lab coated, pharmacy gurus standing at stage right, Sylvia Brown the psychic in the audience and the FBI's team of polygraphy examiners in their midsts, does any show even have a shred of chance in advocating their natural status.
> 
> Are we hippocrits? Some may think so but I like to see us as realists. It serves little purpose to run a drug tested show when all of us who are 'in the know' realize this to be an ineffective and moot tactic. So whether you opt for good ole' fashioned creatine or some esoteric doctrine of sports medicine, chance are we're not necessarily going to know. I'll humble myself in stating that it's safe to assume that most high caliber athletes are using 'something' to better themselves and really it boils down to a matter of personal choice and that has nothing to do with whether a show is 'drug free' or not... Competition, as the name implies, is just that. Who is better than whom. Personally, I'd rather stand on stage knowing that the odds are fairly high that the guys standing next to me are anabolically-equipped rather than enter a so-called natural show where the chips are going to fall where they may.
> 
> In summation, it took 0.15 seconds for google to return 138,000 responses on 'how to pass a steroid test'
> 
> I'll let you be the judge the next time you're paying for a drug testing fee.
> 
> Join me on my next rant from the fitness soap box when I delve into "I look great, so now what??"
> 
> Good luck in competition and in being the best you possible.
> 
> In good health,
> 
> Daryl Gazey
> 
> WBFF Director of Operations


----------



## RockyD

Cutandjacked said:


> IMO, this is perfectly doable naturally. Like I said I know rob he's given me some good advice. He's very staunchly anti-drugs!!!


I reckon this guy could well be natural, I think 175 in that condition is possible naturally but I doubt it gets much better than that truly natural, guys getting on stage ripped, at around 200lb or more (average height), claiming natural is not possible IMO.


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## gummyp

Yeah I think Rob is natural. Apparently he gets tested all year round


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## Hooded

kingdale said:


> Supposedly you can cheat lie detector tests so even that doesnt sound like a fool proof way.


Something the people who go on Jeremy Kyle should look into 

As for natural pro's if it was possible to answer that then there either would be no such thing as a natural pro or no such debate.


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## Dave 0511

cut and jacked mate i said it before but u must of missed it... mate or no mate i have it from a one hundred percent big name trusted source that Rob riches is definitely not 100% natural. im not going to name drop as that is obviously unfair on the person... so take or leave my opinion but i believe it


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## botchla

Just because he isn't a 300lb mass monster doesn't mean he doesn't juice.

HGH all year round at a minimum. Low dosage. Still claims 'natural'.


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## Cutandjacked

Dave 0511 said:


> cut and jacked mate i said it before but u must of missed it... mate or no mate i have it from a one hundred percent big name trusted source that Rob riches is definitely not 100% natural. im not going to name drop as that is obviously unfair on the person... so take or leave my opinion but i believe it


And that is case closed is it! Just coz someone professed that he's on gear.. U take his word for it. Either way I'm getting bored of this natural/vs not natural debate.. I know you have to be seven years clean from these substances before entering an IFPA event... Some people may be 'cheating' the test, but in my eyes there only cheating themselves. If they win, they know they have possibly robbed the title from a worthy adversary who's not using. I know a natural pro who goes to my gym and competed in the Yorton and I can say without doubt he is clean. In natural bodybuilding its more about conditioning and symmetry than sheer size , though it does help, u couldn't even tell he's that well built with a jumper on. It takes month of dieting and sacrifice to get in that condition and I commend those that do it. Whilst some professed natties may be using AAS, HGH or insulin, there are definitely those out there who don't.


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## Megafreak

An interesting debate and something I have always wondered, how natural is natural, hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm


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## Jon.B

Most of them probably consider themselves to be natty as they are pinning under 1g of test a week lol. If they dont take any gear then there genetics must be fantastic?


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## Papa Lazarou

Cutandjacked said:


> And that is case closed is it! Just coz someone professed that he's on gear.. U take his word for it. Either way I'm getting bored of this natural/vs not natural debate.. I know you have to be seven years clean from these substances before entering an IFPA event... Some people may be 'cheating' the test, but in my eyes there only cheating themselves. If they win, they know they have possibly robbed the title from a worthy adversary who's not using. I know a natural pro who goes to my gym and competed in the Yorton and I can say without doubt he is clean. In natural bodybuilding its more about conditioning and symmetry than sheer size , though it does help, u couldn't even tell he's that well built with a jumper on. It takes month of dieting and sacrifice to get in that condition and I commend those that do it. Whilst some professed natties may be using AAS, HGH or insulin, there are definitely those out there who don't.


Its very much easy to beat the testing. Look into olympic atheletes and how many get away with it. Usain Bolt's track coach Angel Hernandez used to be called Angel Heredia, who Bolt signed up to be his 'strength and conditioning coach'. Interestingly (and perhaps damningly) in making a case against Usain Bolt, a fact that is often ignored is that the man who worked with Victor Conte at Balco Labs and later testified against CJ Hunter, Tim Montgomery, Marion Jones, and yes - current 2012 U.S. Olympic sprinter Justin Gatlin- was a man by the name of Angel Heredia.

Prior to working at BALCO, Angel Heredia was a national discus champion for Mexico. In the case against BALCO and Graham, he is referred to as 'Source A' and his testimony against BALCO athletes in verifying the documents that detailed the drug schedules for those athletes was crucial in obtaining convictions or confessions from those individuals.

Here is a video of Usain Bolt's track coach Angel Heredia (Hernandez) obtaining steroids in Mexico and injecting growth hormone on camera for a German documentary:






So people on the natural bodybuilding circuit not cheat? My ****.


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## justin case

bottom line for me is, if you are on gear and you enter and win a natty comp when you know there are genuine natty people competing, when you look at that trophy on your mantelpiece do you feel ashamed? or do you feel proud?

if it's the latter, then you should take a real long look at yourself in the mirror and question what kind of person you are.


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## Papa Lazarou

justin case said:


> bottom line for me is, if you are on gear and you enter and win a natty comp when you know there are genuine natty people competing, when you look at that trophy on your mantelpiece do you feel ashamed? or do you feel proud?
> 
> if it's the latter, then you should take a real long look at yourself in the mirror and question what kind of person you are.


Apparently the best in the sport don't care so why should anyone else with tiny plastic trophies?


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## justin case

pride, self respect and dignity, and a good old fashioned sense of honour.


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## 36-26

justin case said:


> pride, self respect and dignity, and a good old fashioned sense of honour.


Agree 100%, I despise cheating, I would prefer lose than cheat. Depends how you were brought up I guess


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## liamhutch

I don't know who is natty and who's not, couldn't care less tbh, but I have a very good mate who is natural and has trained since he was 16, 23 now and weighs 215lbs at 10% (abs unflexed) body fat and 5 foot 10, benches 140kg for reps and has pulled 6 plates a side on deads. Obviously he has never got into show condition, but he is bigger and stronger than a few others in my gym who do compete and do take steroids when they are in similar condition off season.

I suppose all i'm getting at is that a lot is possible natural, some people just have the genetics for it and whether rob riches is natural or not is stupid debating it because you will never know and the fact is that it IS possible naturally for some people.

As for me, i've not taken any PED's in 4 years (so not natural because i have before) and i can't get above 185 at 10%... It would be easy for me to say all those that have 20+ lbs on me cannot be natty, but my genetics are just not as good...


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## infernal0988

Its such BS they all cheat in one form or another and you bet your ars they use gear ! Think about it if they can successfully get everyone to think that they have done this natural ? My god how much money they can make and fame they will get & even more so gain public trust. Supplement launches their own brands , training methods and marketing their *special* Diet to get customers to buy their book & be trained by them etc. ITS ALL ABOUT MONEY.


----------



## Trevor McDonald

Did someone say this guy was natty!?!?


----------



## infernal0988

Mey said:


> Did someone say this guy was natty!?!?


Where the hell are he`s legs ? That guy isnt natty no bloody way can natty test levels support that much muscle at such a low bodyfat.


----------



## Trevor McDonald

infernal0988 said:


> Where the hell are he`s legs ? That guy isnt natty no bloody way can natty test levels support that much muscle at such a low bodyfat.


He doesn't look it. But who am I to judge.


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## BetterThanYou

i think we should legalize performance enhancers, not only would the playing field suddenly be even for all players, it would be at a higher level.


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## Joshua

Papa Lazarou said:


> ...Usain Bolt's track coach Angel Hernandez used to be called Angel Heredia, who Bolt signed up to be his 'strength and conditioning coach'...


I have heard this claim a few times going around the Internet, yet no proof of this other than Angel's claims of any association between the two.

Angel was not listed as ever being a part of Usain's team at a personal, club or national level, whereas all the rest of his support staff are listed as a matter of public record including doctors and S&C coaches.

I can understand the motivations of a dealer claiming to supply the fastest man at 100m.

J


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## Dave 0511

Cutandjacked said:


> And that is case closed is it! Just coz someone professed that he's on gear.. U take his word for it. Either way I'm getting bored of this natural/vs not natural debate.. I know you have to be seven years clean from these substances before entering an IFPA event... Some people may be 'cheating' the test, but in my eyes there only cheating themselves. If they win, they know they have possibly robbed the title from a worthy adversary who's not using. I know a natural pro who goes to my gym and competed in the Yorton and I can say without doubt he is clean. In natural bodybuilding its more about conditioning and symmetry than sheer size , though it does help, u couldn't even tell he's that well built with a jumper on. It takes month of dieting and sacrifice to get in that condition and I commend those that do it. Whilst some professed natties may be using AAS, HGH or insulin, there are definitely those out there who don't.


 it is case closed yeah. he is not natty fact. I've been there when he has rang up to place an order ffs. sick of the debate? that's the whole point of the thread.


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## pooky

they are drug tested in the bnbf and have to do a polygraph test so yes they are natural and look at the winners from previous years, there r not that impreseive. great shape and look good of course but obtainable thru natural training with out a doubt


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## Northern Lass

They are drug tested and go on a lie detector test. So yes they are.


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## C.Hill

YummyMummy said:


> They are drug tested and go on a lie detector test. So yes they are.


Must be true then...


----------



## Muscle Supermkt

Having been to a number of natural bodybuilding shows (NPA federation), I'd say that the vast majority are natural. At a pro level, it's difficult to say, though I would like to think that they are natural if they state they are. There can't be anything worse than entering a natural show as a user, I don't see how someone would get satisfaction from that.

We will never know for sure!


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## 1010AD

Natty.Solider said:


> I know growth use is big in natural competitions at the moment for sure.


Is that a true statement because wouldn't a natural comp mean you haven't take any performance enhancing drugs. I would of thought they would be tested for everything.


----------



## Dave 0511

1010AD said:


> Is that a true statement because wouldn't a natural comp mean you haven't take any performance enhancing drugs. I would of thought they would be tested for everything.


you cantt test for growth


----------



## Guest

The BNBF drugs commissioner Dave works at our gym. He was telling my friend that almost everyone passes the urine tests but they do catch a lot of people out on the lie detector. Feds like Musclemania I very much doubt are natural. As long as they don't test positive on competition day I think they probs don't care either. UKBFF have said they are starting to do tested shows FFS


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## Nickthegreek

Yeah there are many "natty " competitors that look like they have taken some gear but just know what and when to take to pass urine/drug tests and they are great liers so they can fool polygraph tests. Why do you think that polygraph test results are not permitted in British courts........

However there are many who are really natty! A guy at my gym won his regional BNBF comp and i know he is natty but he just works really hard!

One other guy from my gym was a UKBFF British champ for his class one year and he said that when he first started body building he was natty but he got so ****ed off that many people were cheating so he gave up on the natty scene.


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## Papa Lazarou

RS86 said:


> The BNBF drugs commissioner Dave works at our gym. He was telling my friend that almost everyone passes the urine tests but they do catch a lot of people out on the lie detector.


So drop a betablocker and pass that too...


----------



## Guest

Papa Lazarou said:


> So drop a betablocker and pass that too...


 Yeah my mate was saying the way he said it was as if he thought some people that managed to pass it mayb shouldn't have. I would say all the guys who I saw at BNBF Scotland last year were natural but you never know tbh.


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## 1010AD

Dave 0511 said:


> you cantt test for growth


I didn't know that and was thinking if you can or can't, maybe it's used in a lot of sports then.


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## str4nger

doesnt natural mean currently not on cycle


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## Dave 0511

polygraphs are useless, their accuracy is much disputed and I certainly wouldn't be confident taking one based on any question whether truthful or not!


----------

