# Shrugs- Do you roll your shoulders?



## dazsmith69

Ive normally been and up and down shrug guy up till now, after hearing that rotating your shoulders can give you problems with your rotor cuff/trapping nerves in your back. Lately ive been rolling my shoulders with a fraction of the weight and found it to hit generally more of the upper traps than a regular up and down movement. I feel it hits the traps towards the shoulders more than just around your kneck and gives me a better pump.

Does anyone else rool their shoulders, or offer any advice on shrug technique? (except squeezing it for second at the top which ive heard many a time )

Cheers Darren


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## rodrigo

when i started out mate every big guy who had traps rolled with it but now its frowned on and up and down we are told is the way forward.. i think its horses for courses if it hits them better do it cos it done them boys no harm


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## dtlv

Rolling the shoulders does hit the mid traps more, but it does also place a sheering stress on the rotator cuffs. Since it's very hard to recover completely from a rotator cuff injury, i think it's better to stick to the up-down shrugs and then do cleans or high pulls for the mid and lower traps.


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## GREG KUZ

Never ever rolled my shoulders, being perfectly honest always wondered why you see people doing it sometimes. And its often the people in my experience who dont really have a clue what they re doing, who do it. This is just my opinions though im sure there are people who may feel differently. Peace


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## BLUTOS

Nah, just up n down.Try shrugs in standing calf machine, loads of weight available and no issue if you have a dodgy grip.


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## T.F.

Deadlifts build traps, never worry about shrugging. If you must shrug, just up and down to avoid RC injury.


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## gold95

up & slightly back. obviously its difficult to do that with a bar but with dumbells it'll give you a better contraction. if your doing shrugs better to do a full range of movement, if not your aswell doing deadlifts. every gym you'll get some1 doing shrugs with huge weights but range is no more than an inch or 2.


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## Guest

Dtlv74 said:


> Rolling the shoulders does hit the mid traps more, but it does also place a sheering stress on the rotator cuffs.


Thats rubbish. Rolling shrugs/hangs strengthen the muscles of your cuff.

Ok, be stupid and youll injure yourself, but thats true for any exercise and any type of form.


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## dtlv

mikex101 said:


> Thats rubbish. Rolling shrugs/hangs strengthen the muscles of your cuff.
> 
> Ok, be stupid and youll injure yourself, but thats true for any exercise and any type of form.


Rolling shoulders with shrugs does develop some of the support muscles to the rotator cuff complex - the levator scapulae specifically, but they don't work to strengthen the muscles of the rotator cuff at all.

Link listing muscles worked when you shrug -

http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/TrapeziusUpper/DBShrug.html

Where does it mention the rotator cuffs being worked?

The problem is that in developing the levator scapulae but not the rotator cuffs they create a strength imbalance. The strength imbalance causes the shoulder joint to be held permanently slightly out of position, and this creates a sheering force on the shoulder joint when the arm is rotated at the shoulder.

The injury you are likely to get from this kind of imbalance wouldn't come when shruging however, it would more likely occur when pressing upwards, as the strong levator scapulae muscle would pull your arms up with a force that the stabilising rotator cuffs couldn't match, and so they could sheer.

If you did exercises along side rolling shrugs such as internal and external rotations, cuban presses, and the 'full can' exercise (probably the best movement to address this balance) then you would probably be okay as you'd be developing the subscapularis, infraspinitus, supraspinitus and teres muscle too, and creating balanced strength at the joint.

So ok no, rolling shrugs aren't guaranteed to **** up your rotator cuffs, but it depends on what other work you do to address the imbalance they create.


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## hackskii

Hey bro, what are 'full can' exercise's?

Can you demonstrate?

I am quite familiar with the other ones and cuban rotations are one of my favorite.



T.F. said:


> Deadlifts build traps, never worry about shrugging. If you must shrug, just up and down to avoid RC injury.


If you are doing dead lifts I doubt you need to isolate the traps at all.

I did trap work for years with little success.

Once I started dead lifting, they came alive.

Not only that but when going heavy in shrugs I noticed that my lower back took a pounding from a locked stance (back) when using a strait bar.


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## skellan

I tend to roll on shrugs but have recently tried doing single shrugs sat on the end of a bench holding one side for support. I like this exercise as the trap is extended much further out at the bottom of each rep and seems to give a fuller range of movement than doubles


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## dixie normus

mikex101 said:


> Thats rubbish. Rolling shrugs/hangs strengthen the muscles of your cuff.


I'd be interested in any information you have in support of this assertion. Thanks


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## Ak_88

mikex101 said:


> Thats rubbish. Rolling shrugs/hangs strengthen the muscles of your cuff.
> 
> Ok, be stupid and youll injure yourself, but thats true for any exercise and any type of form.


Except the fact that none of the rotator cuff muscles are directly in action when you roll your shoulders? Shoulder protraction/retraction is predominantly a trapezius-based movement in terms of the shrugging movement.

Not to mention that hanging your shoulders puts you in a kyphotic posture and will do nothing except grind away and inflame the RC tendons that run through your shoulder joint.

If you want thick traps, variants of rows/cleans/deads and overhead presses are the way forward. If you want to address the middle/lower traps with a more functional approach, look into things like face pulls, horizontal rows and so on.


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## Guest

At DTLV74



> Rolling shoulders with shrugs does develop some of the support muscles to the rotator cuff complex - the levator scapulae specifically, but they don't work to strengthen the muscles of the rotator cuff at all.


levator scapulae isnt part of the RC, or its complex mate. different muscle with a different job.



> Link listing muscles worked when you shrug -
> 
> http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/...r/DBShrug.html
> 
> Where does it mention the rotator cuffs being worked?


Where did i say a straight up and down shrug said it would work the RC? youve countered your own argument there mate.

Still, I dont buy that for a second. You put weight on the end of your arm, and those muscles will be keeping your arm where it should be. attached to the rest of you.



> The problem is that in developing the levator scapulae but not the rotator cuffs they create a strength imbalance. The strength imbalance causes the shoulder joint to be held permanently slightly out of position, and this creates a sheering force on the shoulder joint when the arm is rotated at the shoulder.


Even if it were true, why would straight up and down shrugs cure this?



> The injury you are likely to get from this kind of imbalance wouldn't come when shruging however, it would more likely occur when pressing upwards, as the strong levator scapulae muscle would pull your arms up with a force that the stabilising rotator cuffs couldn't match, and so they could sheer.


So when you said



> Originally Posted by *Dtlv74*
> 
> Rolling the shoulders does hit the mid traps more, but it does also place a sheering stress on the rotator cuffs.


You were mistaken which is why i called BS?

Strengthening the Levator Scap wont pull your shoulder out of allignment in the socket. Infact ive seen studies where its reconmended to increase LScap strength in order to improve scapula position and shoulder muscle performance. Can i ask where you got this info from? would be nice to read.



> If you did exercises along side rolling shrugs such as internal and external rotations, cuban presses, and the 'full can' exercise (probably the best movement to address this balance) then you would probably be okay as you'd be developing the subscapularis, infraspinitus, supraspinitus and teres muscle too, and creating balanced strength at the joint.


I do, thanks. But to be honest, rolling shrugs and rolling hangs from a chinup bar have done more for my RC than the above in my opinion. Infact, i stopped doing cuban presses as they were ****ing my shoulder.



> So ok no, rolling shrugs aren't guaranteed to **** up your rotator cuffs, but it depends on what other work you do to address the imbalance they create.


Again, how do rolling shrugs create any more of an imbalance than uppy downy shrugs would? You use more muscles, more of the time, yet create more of an imbalance>? :confused1:


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## pea head

Rolling is biggest load of crap going.

Do dumbbells from the side of the legs up,down and squeeze.


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## hackskii

Ak_88 said:


> Except the fact that none of the rotator cuff muscles are directly in action when you roll your shoulders? Shoulder protraction/retraction is predominantly a trapezius-based movement in terms of the shrugging movement.
> 
> Not to mention that hanging your shoulders puts you in a kyphotic posture and will do nothing except grind away and inflame the RC tendons that run through your shoulder joint.
> 
> If you want thick traps, variants of rows/cleans/deads and overhead presses are the way forward. If you want to address the middle/lower traps with a more functional approach, look into things like face pulls, horizontal rows and so on.


Nice post, but what are face pulls?


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## Ak_88

One of the most underrated shoulder rehab/prehab exercises, along with being great for getting the rhomboids and mid/lower trap fibres firing;


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## Guest

Ak_88 said:


> One of the most underrated shoulder rehab/prehab exercises, along with being great for getting the rhomboids and mid/lower trap fibres firing;


Totally agree, One of my staples.


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## hackskii

Ak_88 said:


> One of the most underrated shoulder rehab/prehab exercises, along with being great for getting the rhomboids and mid/lower trap fibres firing;


Fantastic, I do something simmilar bur encourperate more rear delts.


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## gold95

great post very informative as usual but it doesn't change the fact that shrugs along with deadlifts are the best exercises to develop the traps.



Ak_88 said:


> Except the fact that none of the rotator cuff muscles are directly in action when you roll your shoulders? Shoulder protraction/retraction is predominantly a trapezius-based movement in terms of the shrugging movement.
> 
> *Not to mention that hanging your shoulders puts you in a kyphotic posture and will do nothing except grind away and inflame the RC tendons that run through your shoulder joint.*
> 
> might be reading it wrong but if the reason to avoid shrugs is risk of injury then it has to be the same for deadlifts? the arms are basically doing the same as they do in a shrug. the grip could be over or under but the arms are hanging. i'd keep both in a routine 2 great exercises.
> 
> If you want *thick traps, variants of rows/**cleans**/deads* and* overhead presses* are the way forward. If you want to address the middle/lower traps with a more functional approach, look into things like face pulls, horizontal rows and so on.


cleans will do very little to give you THICK TRAPS. a clean or even a power clean is all about power & momentum, no doubt the traps do the pulling but there is very little tension kept on the traps,the legs & lower back are doing much of the work. if the reason to avoid shrugs is risk of injury then i'd point out your more likely to get injured doing cleans. i'm NOT saying your wrong i'm just telling people of my experiences from being around weightlifters since i was 15 (19 years ago)...

to point out for any newbies the overhead pressing is for delts, i think it is ment in terms of strengthining the muscles of the shoulders. i only say so they don't go into a gym telling people they are doing them for traps & look stupid.

face pulls are a great exercise.


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## Ak_88

Fair points Gold - but i disagree r/e shoulders and shrugs being the same. The arms are not the issue with shrugs nor deadlifts - they are merely the attachment to the bar, hooks if you will.

With DL's there should be no elevation of the scapula as there is with shrugs - the shoulder girdle should remain static, whilst with shrugs the predominant movement is scapular elevation and depression.


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## gold95

Ak_88 said:


> Fair points Gold - but i disagree r/e shoulders and shrugs being the same. The arms are not the issue with shrugs nor deadlifts - they are merely the attachment to the bar, hooks if you will.
> 
> With DL's there should be no elevation of the scapula as there is with shrugs - the shoulder girdle should remain static, whilst with shrugs the predominant movement is scapular elevation and depression.


that makes great sense actually, see what you mean :thumbup1: i can be abit slow sometimes.


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## hackskii

Ak_88 said:


> Fair points Gold - but i disagree r/e shoulders and shrugs being the same. The arms are not the issue with shrugs nor deadlifts - they are merely the attachment to the bar, hooks if you will.
> 
> With DL's there should be no elevation of the scapula as there is with shrugs - the shoulder girdle should remain static, whilst with shrugs the predominant movement is scapular elevation and depression.


Nice post but sadly I am all out of reps to hand out.

I remember long ago when I started clean and jerks my dead lifts went up.

The idea is explosion to get as much bar speed as possible.

There would be some trap recruitment with those.


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## dtlv

mikex101 said:


> At DTLV74
> 
> levator scapulae isnt part of the RC, or its complex mate. different muscle with a different job.


That's the point which you've missed. The levator scapulae moves the shoulder blade up but also back, the 'moving back' being something which happens in shrugs where you roll your shoulder more than in shrugs where you don't (it takes away some of the work from the traps due to the roll as the traps resisit mainly up and down but the levator scapulae also resist more in back and forth fashion).

The rotator cuffs rotate the arm and have nothing to do with a shrugging motion or a shoulder roll (hence why your claim that rolling shrugs strengthen the RC's is incorrect)... but they do attach to the other end of the shoulder blade, so increasing the strength of the levator scapulae at one end but not the RCs at the other can create a strength imbalance over time if not addressed. Because the levator is stronger than the RC's, this then means the scapulae is held out of position during exercise (the shoulder blade is pulled out of position slightly 'up and back') and is pulled more towards the levator thus over stretching the RC's and exposing them to a greater injury potential.

And no, the levator is not part of the rotator cuff but it is part of the complex responsible for scapularhumoral movement (which include the rotator cuffs, serratus, detoids, pecs, lats, biceps, triceps and trapezius muscles too).



mikex101 said:


> Where did i say a straight up and down shrug said it would work the RC? youve countered your own argument there mate.


You didn't and are right that it doesn't - but neither do rolling shrugs. The RC's rotate the arm within the socket... stick you arms out to the side with thumbs facing down and rotate at the shoulder as well as the elbow to bring thumbs up. That's done by the deltoids, RC's and biceps. It's that kind of lateral rotation that the RCs work, not a horizontal rotation against no resistance as in rolling shrugs - when you roll shoulders front to back it's the traps, levator scapulae and posterior deltoid that do the work.



mikex101 said:


> Still, I dont buy that for a second. You put weight on the end of your arm, and those muscles will be keeping your arm where it should be. attached to the rest of you.
> 
> Even if it were true, why would straight up and down shrugs cure this?


I never said they did - just that up-down shrugs maintain better balance between muscles of the shoulder complex by not shifting too much weight off the traps to the levator.



mikex101 said:


> So when you said
> 
> You were mistaken which is why i called BS?
> 
> Strengthening the Levator Scap wont pull your shoulder out of allignment in the socket. Infact ive seen studies where its reconmended to increase LScap strength in order to improve scapula position and shoulder muscle performance. Can i ask where you got this info from? would be nice to read.


Correct - it doesn't pull the humerus out of the socket - it pulls the scapular up and back. The rotator cuffs attach to the humerus and insert at the scapula. Remember that something out of position at either end can cause a problem.

A good book to read would be "Muscle Stretching in Manual Therapy" by O Evjenth MS, and J Hamberg MD. It details the kind of imbalance and stresses that over developed levator scapulae can cause in relation to scapulohumeral issues.



mikex101 said:


> I do, thanks. But to be honest, rolling shrugs and rolling hangs from a chinup bar have done more for my RC than the above in my opinion. Infact, i stopped doing cuban presses as they were ****ing my shoulder.


Sounds to me like you have had issues other than rotator cuffs - sounds like a lower trapezius lacking in strength which you are now addressing with the rolling hangs. Have you tried scapular retractions? They are a good exercise for this, much better than rolls.



mikex101 said:


> Again, how do rolling shrugs create any more of an imbalance than uppy downy shrugs would? You use more muscles, more of the time, yet create more of an imbalance>? :confused1:


Well they don't work more muscle as a whole - they work the traps less and the levator scapulae more.

....

To be honest this post was hardly worth the time - the increased risk of injury is still only small overall and not really worthy of a long post. Just wanted to make it clear that rolling the shoulders doesn't work the RC's as claimed and doesn't add any effectiveness to the exercise overall.

http://www.exrx.net/Kinesiology/Errors.html#anchor972930


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## Guest

No i don't.


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## MillionG

No roll. I see alot of guys rolling in the gym and I have a little giggle to myself.


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## martin brown

No roll. no shrugs for me.

Well, only overhead shrugs.


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## dtlv

hackskii said:


> Hey bro, what are 'full can' exercise's?
> 
> Can you demonstrate?


http://www.viddler.com/explore/bman74/videos/7/

Is kind of like the lateral raise but with thumbs pointed upwards and pinky fingers down. Hard to find a vid of it other than this one:

http://www.viddler.com/explore/bman74/videos/7/

http://ajs.sagepub.com/content/30/3/374.abstract


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## coldo

No roll. Up, squeeze, down. Repeat.

On a similar note... How do you do yours in terms of front/back/Dumbells by your side?


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## dazsmith69

coldo said:


> No roll. Up, squeeze, down. Repeat.
> 
> On a similar note... How do you do yours in terms of front/back/Dumbells by your side?


mixture for me, use the trap bar (hex bar thing) smiths machine and dumbbells.


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## NickR24

I don't roll, did once 2 weeks ago and trapped a nerve in my neck. Total load of crap.

I do deadlifts every week, so the only isolated trap work I do is barbell behind the back shrugs, straight up straight down. Helps build my traps, but I dont want them massive, I havent got big shoulder genetics,so if I got big traps, it would make me look narrower.


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## phys sam

I knew I'd read this years ago, although I couldn't find the primary articles, I found this review which credits and references the original by Bogduk, Johnson et al

In the interests of annoying scientific papers which tell us the opposite of accepted gym based knowledge, I though some of you might like this 

http://www.warrenhammer.com/article-journal/2009/1/10/the-upper-trapezius-does-not-elevate-the-shoulder.html

...as the title says, upper traps are not ideally suited to shoulder elevation anyhow.


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## solidcecil

T.F. said:


> Deadlifts build traps, never worry about shrugging.


x2


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## phys sam

pertinent bits...

there were no osseous origins between the occiput and the C7 spinous process. Instead, each fascicle originated from the ligamentum nuchae, not from bone.

All of the fascicles above the level of C7 inserted along the posterior border of the distal third of the clavicle. Fibers from C6 inserted into the distal corner of the clavicle as far as the acromioclavicular joint, while the fascicle from C7 attached to the scapula at the inner order of the acromion.

It is apparent from this orientation that the nuchal portion of the trapezius is a poor elevator of the scapula, especially since "their small size limits their strength in this action"4 and the rest of the fibers have much more of a transverse direction. Also, the fibers insert on the clavicle, and not the scapula, and the action of the upper trapezius, based on its orientation, will draw the clavicle backward or medially - but not upward.

idea that the trapezius by itself can act as a force couple5 (i.e., the upper fibers pulling upward, while its lower fibers pull downward) is not correct, since the upper and lower fibers of the UT do not act in opposite directions.

So, the trapezius resists lateral, instead of downward load, which is why the trapezius (C2-C6) only has to be anchored to the ligamentum nuchae, instead of the cervical spine.

The upper trapezius, therefore, is not an elevator of the scapula, but uses the sternoclavicular joint to sustain downward loads applied to the upper limb.


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