# Keto Diet for next cycle, for lean hard muscle gains?



## pbul2004 (Sep 10, 2008)

I am thinking of looking at doing a Keto Diet when i start my 2nd cycle. My first cycle was a bulking diet which i didnt like the bloat and water retention.

So i am thinking of doing a Keto Diet, my 2nd cycle is test-e, deca and tbol. I was looking at a keto diet so my gains a lean hard muscle mass.

Any advise on IF this diet is ok on cycle, and comments etc welcome.

Cheers


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## Big Dawg (Feb 24, 2008)

pbul2004 said:


> I am thinking of looking at doing a Keto Diet when i start my 2nd cycle. My first cycle was a bulking diet which i didnt like the bloat and water retention.
> 
> So i am thinking of doing a Keto Diet, my 2nd cycle is test-e, deca and tbol. I was looking at a keto diet so my gains a lean hard muscle mass.
> 
> ...


Hi mate

It's virtually impossible to gain weight on a keto diet, let alone muscle. Keto diets are strictly for cutting and IMO are very catabolic. Why not just target carbs around workouts or just have a carb cutoff in the evening if you're worried about them. Just need to find your balance mate, but I guarantee you won't gain a thing on a keto diet.


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## weeman (Sep 6, 2007)

even dave palumbo doesnt recomend the keto diet for offseason gains,listen to what alisTTTair said mate


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## hermie07 (Sep 16, 2008)

im in the same boat i have lost 2 stone on my keto diet and i have my next cycle coming up but as soon as i eat too many carbs i just gain fat so what would be a good diet when trying to gain good muscle mass while keeping carbs down??? or is that impossible?


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## B-GJOE (May 7, 2009)

AlasTTTair said:


> Hi mate
> 
> It's virtually impossible to gain weight on a keto diet





AlasTTTair said:


> I guarantee you won't gain a thing on a keto diet.


They are some pretty bold statements to make mate. Although I am not advocating using a Keto based diet for a bulk, and I also agree that a Targeted carb method is best way for clean bulk, I cannot take your statements as black and white. We are all built different, and I have read in several places where people have had good success bulking on a CKD. Although not the diet of choice for the majority to bulk on, your statements are a little too one sided.


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## hermie07 (Sep 16, 2008)

hi big jo do you have any more info on Targeted carb diet for a clean bulk, this sounds like i need maybe just to have carbs as and when is needed not every meal like i was.


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## B-GJOE (May 7, 2009)

gyppo12345 said:


> hi big jo do you have any more info on Targeted carb diet for a clean bulk, this sounds like i need maybe just to have carbs as and when is needed not every meal like i was.


I've been Keto now since January, and in 2½ weeks time after my show, I am going to go back to carbs in diet, but I will be controlling them.

You need carbs for 2 reasons main reasons.

1. To Keep glycogen levels replenished so you can do your heavy workouts.

2. Spike Insulin at the right time to get the best anabolic effect.

My plan is to have about 100g of Oats first thing in the morning when insulin sensitivity is at it's best, then just fats and proteins during the day, and about 120g of simple carbs PWO. Probably a mix of dextrose, maltodextrin, and corn starch. Shouldn't be any greater than 300g per day. I doubt I will go Keto on this diet, as the carbs are just too high, but then again that is not my goal. A true targeted Keto diet would just be carbs after weight sessions only. I think if you stick to the basic rule of high carb breakfast, and high carb post workout, clean fats and proteins at all other times, calories around 16-18 times weight in lbs, you shouldn't go too far wrong.


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## hermie07 (Sep 16, 2008)

so if i was to have a diet like,

meal 1 100g oats in water, 5 whole eggs

meal 2 2 scoopes whey in water

meal 3 150g chicken with 100g brocoli

meal 4 pre work out????

workout then consume 2 scoopes build and recover and 1 scoop whey in water

meal 5 150g chicken with a small jacket potato and salad

meal 6 pre bed???

this would be a good lean muscle gaining diet??? or am i all wrong

also i weigh 13,10 at the moment so would this be enough cals?


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## Big Dawg (Feb 24, 2008)

B|GJOE said:


> They are some pretty bold statements to make mate. Although I am not advocating using a Keto based diet for a bulk, and I also agree that a Targeted carb method is best way for clean bulk, I cannot take your statements as black and white. We are all built different, and I have read in several places where people have had good success bulking on a CKD. Although not the diet of choice for the majority to bulk on, your statements are a little too one sided.


Christ man, I made that post over a month ago!

Anyway, the point I was making was that in a prolonged state of ketosis you are not going to gain any muscle, and the mere act of weight training will strip down any muscle that you already have. This is in relation to an SKD, which I assume he was talking about as there was no mention of replenishing carbs in his post.

As you say, in theory it's supposed to be possible to gain muscle on a CKD, but I'm yet to see any reports of serious progress made doing so. DiPasquale can come up with all the theories he likes, but I personally think there are probably better ways to gain muscle and stay lean. That being said, providing that there is enough glycogen to last through all the weeks workouts and you're in a constant calorie surplus then I suppose it may work.

A thread over on muscletalk was documenting the progress of someone attempting just this. I remember he was taking in 5000cals a day and 1000g carbs once a week and couldn't gain a pound. So I think cals on high fat days would have to be very high and carb ups would have to last the whole weekend, maybe taking in 2-3000g, but then there's the risk of fat regain, so it seems like a bit of a tricky one to predict. I'm personally not inclined to attempt it, but would read on eagerly if someone else were to.


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## Big Dawg (Feb 24, 2008)

B|GJOE said:


> I've been Keto now since January, and in 2½ weeks time after my show, I am going to go back to carbs in diet, but I will be controlling them.
> 
> You need carbs for 2 reasons main reasons.
> 
> ...


I like this plan Joe. I've done something similar in the past. Basically it was starches as brekkie and PPWO and simple sugars PWO. The rest of the time was high protein, very high fat and about 3 pieces of fruit a day. I ended up recomping slowly over a period of about 3 months and ate as much as I wanted really.

I'm inclined to try something akin to what you're suggesting when I finish my cut. I may start out that way and then move on to something like Palumbo's off season plan which involves approx 30g carbs, 50g protein, 30g fat per meal. Whatever I do I want to make sure I gain weight in the slowest possible way. My aim will be to add 15lb within a year and almost all of it to be muscle. I want to compete in the future, but hate dieting, so want to eventually get to the stage where I'm only ever 8 weeks out. How easy that is we will see.


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## hermie07 (Sep 16, 2008)

alasttair can you have a quick look at my diet is it way off. just need someones help to point me in the right direction. cheers


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## Big Dawg (Feb 24, 2008)

gyppo12345 said:


> alasttair can you have a quick look at my diet is it way off. just need someones help to point me in the right direction. cheers


Where is it?


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## B-GJOE (May 7, 2009)

AlasTTTair said:


> I like this plan Joe. I've done something similar in the past. Basically it was starches as brekkie and PPWO and simple sugars PWO. The rest of the time was high protein, very high fat and about 3 pieces of fruit a day. I ended up recomping slowly over a period of about 3 months and ate as much as I wanted really.
> 
> I'm inclined to try something akin to what you're suggesting when I finish my cut. I may start out that way and then move on to something like Palumbo's off season plan which involves approx 30g carbs, 50g protein, 30g fat per meal. Whatever I do I want to make sure I gain weight in the slowest possible way. My aim will be to add 15lb within a year and almost all of it to be muscle. I want to compete in the future, but hate dieting, so want to eventually get to the stage where I'm only ever 8 weeks out. How easy that is we will see.


I plan to stay 8 weeks out in the off, I'm 38 now, no point in planning on being the next Mr O. Just gain a few solid lbs, and keep a good physique. But I work in a Chocolate Factory, so when I get off this cut, god only knows what will happen at work.


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## Big Dawg (Feb 24, 2008)

B|GJOE said:


> I plan to stay 8 weeks out in the off, I'm 38 now, no point in planning on being the next Mr O. Just gain a few solid lbs, and keep a good physique. But I work in a Chocolate Factory, so when I get off this cut, god only knows what will happen at work.


Stick to the diet doopady-doo, if you don't fat will pile on you.


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## Guest (Jun 30, 2009)

Dave P's bulking diet, looks very good to me.......

OFFSEASON MASS DIET(200lb+ male)

**Sandwich the pre and post-workout shake around your workout (wherever that may fall)

***you can have unlimited vegetables with your meals

MEAL 1:

6 whole eggs (buy the OMEGA-3 EGGS they sell in the supermarket) with 1 cup of Oatmeal (cooked)

MEAL 2: (pre-workout)

SHAKE: 55g Whey Protein** with 40g Waxy Maize*** (high molecular weight carbohydrate) with 1 tablespoon of Macadamia Nut Oil

GYM: WEIGHT TRAINING

MEAL 3: (post-workout)

SHAKE: 55g Whey Protein** with 50g Waxy Maize*** (high molecular weight carbohydrate).

MEAL 4:

"LEAN PROTEIN MEAL" 8oz (cooked) of chicken (or turkey or lean fish or shrimp)-- with ½ cup cashew nuts (or almonds or walnuts) with 1 cup (cooked) RICE (brown)

MEAL 5:

"FATTY PROTEIN MEAL" 8oz (cooked) of red meat (or salmon or swordfish) with a salad with 2 tablespoon of olive oil (or macadamia nut oil) and vinegar with 1 baked potato and/or yam

MEAL 6: Repeat One of Above

MEAL 7: 5 whole eggs

+++++ All meals are interchangeable. You can substitute one for another.

*** Cook your eggs in MACADAMIA NUT OIL and add a tablespoon to all your chicken fish, meats--

***ONCE or TWICE A WEEK, HAVE A CHEAT MEAL (make it the last meal of the day)

__________________


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## B-GJOE (May 7, 2009)

AlasTTTair said:


> Stick to the diet doopady-doo, if you don't fat will pile on you.


PMSL - I'll be the next Augustus Gloop


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