# Let's scare the sh1t out of ISIS



## Kazza61 (Jun 14, 2008)

Admittedly this was thought up in Wetherspoons after several pints earlier tonight (apologies) but I got to thinking; ISIS do seem extra fearsome because of their cowardly beheading acts. And quite rightly, we in the west are appalled. Having said that, here in the UK we do have a long history of the most horrendous forms of torture. So isn't it time we resurrected some of them and put them to good use?

So here is what I was thinking: why not capture an ISIS member or sympathiser (or two) and make a video where they are hung upside down and slowly peeled from the ankles. Being upside down they will stay conscious for a long time and the agony will therefore be fully experienced. If we wanted, we could even throw salt at the emerging wounds to get a few more scream for the viewers. The video could be hosted by the polar oppisite of Jihadi John - my suggestion would be "British Bruce" (Forsythe). Then we post the video on YouTube and let the fvckers know that any ISIS chappies (or chappesses) found in the UK will meet a similar fate! Might just make them think a bit.

Or failing that we could try negotiating with them. Maybe you have suggestions of your own?

(PS. Wetherspoons are doing Carlsberg for £1.49 today!! For fvck sake don't let ISIS know!!).


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## LeVzi (Nov 18, 2013)

I think we should invite several ISIS leaders to join this forum, they'd soon think twice about fking with the UK then. :bounce:


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## IGotTekkers (Jun 6, 2012)

Tbh i don't think they would batter an eyelid. For every 1 we kill another 10 join them. People all across the globe hate the western governments so much they are giving up their lives to fight them with isis. Tbh if i was iraqi and had my family and towns blown to bits by britain and America so they could steal the oil from under my feet I'd probably standing with isis aswell.


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## BettySwallocks (Aug 1, 2012)

send a load of Ebola people in to go round spitting on the cvnts.


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## Heavyassweights (Jan 18, 2014)

Coherant post = not enough pints


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## Dan94 (Dec 29, 2013)

They won't care though, he'd have died whilst fighting in 'the holy war' and for Allah and all the other excuses they like to use.


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## DappaDonDave (Dec 2, 2013)

Agreed.

How did we deal with Nazis? Killed them or told them of they ever think a nazi thought we'd then kill them.

Before these guys get too big or hold of some serious icbm's, just flatten the country. Ask Japan how Nagasaki and Hiroshima are doing...

Targeting their strongholds is all well and good, but a bit or brute force and ignorance may make them realise being big men and trying to take over isn't too great of an idea. Especially when they're just smashing places up, it's not like they're trying to build an actual state or country.


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## Kazza61 (Jun 14, 2008)

Heavyassweights said:


> Coherant post = not enough pints


About 9 spellchecks and rewrites went in to it!!


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## Ian_Montrose (Nov 13, 2007)

I think we should give them their version of the X-Factor franchise. That'll teach 'em.


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## lazy (May 5, 2010)

We live in probably the most politically correct country in the world, in fact we basically invented human rights.

The idea that we would somehow bring back torture is a little far fetched me thinks


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## Kazza61 (Jun 14, 2008)

lazy said:


> The idea that we would somehow bring back torture is a little far fetched me thinks


That's just being lazy me thinks...


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## IC1 (Aug 1, 2014)

Ian_Montrose said:


> I think we should give them their version of the X-Factor franchise. That'll teach 'em.


The winner gets to become a Martyr and all the rest get beheaded on 'Xtra Factor'


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## a.notherguy (Nov 17, 2008)

Ian_Montrose said:


> I think we should give them their version of the X-Factor franchise. That'll teach 'em.


your a callous basteward!


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## Danjal (Aug 4, 2009)

Kazza61 said:


> Admittedly this was thought up in Wetherspoons after several pints earlier tonight (apologies) but I got to thinking; ISIS do seem extra fearsome because of their cowardly beheading acts. And quite rightly, we in the west are appalled. Having said that, here in the UK we do have a long history of the most horrendous forms of torture. So isn't it time we resurrected some of them and put them to good use?
> 
> So here is what I was thinking: why not capture an ISIS member or sympathiser (or two) and make a video where they are hung upside down and slowly peeled from the ankles. Being upside down they will stay conscious for a long time and the agony will therefore be fully experienced. If we wanted, we could even throw salt at the emerging wounds to get a few more scream for the viewers. The video could be hosted by the polar oppisite of Jihadi John - my suggestion would be "British Bruce" (Forsythe). Then we post the video on YouTube and let the fvckers know that any ISIS chappies (or chappesses) found in the UK will meet a similar fate! Might just make them think a bit.
> 
> ...


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geneva_Conventions


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## Normsky (Aug 29, 2014)

These girls already scaring the **** outa them.


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## DeskSitter (Jan 28, 2013)

Quite frankly have more disdain for the Banker families that run this world than a fictional creation of the US government


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## MFM (Jul 25, 2013)

What's this allahu fukbar they keep shouting when one of them gets it in the neck?


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## harrison180 (Aug 6, 2013)

This country is to much of a joke to do anything that might be Getting close to sorting a violent problem.

If I was in charge I'd use TV to show them some horrific things. If anyone then said oh you can't do that it's against human rights... I'd do the same to them  .

Who the fvck is the leader of this group? It's just a bunch of gun totting weirdos who are using their numbers to get lucky on taking towns. This problem could if been finished off in a couple of weeks but no we have to drag it out for the next god knows how many years.


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## Normsky (Aug 29, 2014)

MFM said:


> What's this allahu fukbar they keep shouting when one of them gets it in the neck?


It translates into god is great.


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## Normsky (Aug 29, 2014)

harrison180 said:


> This country is to much of a joke to do anything that might be Getting close to sorting a violent problem.
> 
> If I was in charge I'd use TV to show them some horrific things. If anyone then said oh you can't do that it's against human rights... I'd do the same to them  .
> 
> Who the fvck is the leader of this group? It's just a bunch of gun totting weirdos who are using their numbers to get lucky on taking towns. This problem could if been finished off in a couple of weeks but no we have to drag it out for the next god knows how many years.


The problem is the U.K hardly has the moral superiority, our nation and its imperialist projects have cost millions of lives stretching back forever. I would be all for armed intervention if it wasn't just a pretext for wealthy people to make insane amounts of money while our troops die and innocent civilians over there make up most of the casualties of the war.

It also does not help we funded ISL against Syria and armed these thugs who are now raping 4 year old Yazidi children and setting them on fire. Would you trust a regime that funded ISL to then fight against the same people?


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## dann19900 (Dec 29, 2012)

IGotTekkers said:


> Tbh if i was iraqi and had my family and towns blown to bits by britain and America so they could steal the oil from under my feet I'd probably standing with isis aswell.


You'd rape and murder your fellow Iraqi's because America had stole oil, interesting


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## Normsky (Aug 29, 2014)

DeskSitter said:


> Quite frankly have more disdain for the Banker families that run this world than a fictional creation of the US government


 They are not a creation, they are merely funded for use in Proxy war. We and the U.S have been doing this since before the cold war. The biggest one being us funding the mujaheddin who after beating the USSR went on to have a civil war, the people we funded coming out on top and re branding themselves as the Taliban, a few of those later went on to be the inner circle of al-Qaeda.


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## Kazza61 (Jun 14, 2008)

Danjal said:


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geneva_Conventions


D'oh! I knew there was something niggling away in the back of my mind as to why we couldn't do this...


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## IGotTekkers (Jun 6, 2012)

dann19900 said:


> You'd rape and murder your fellow Iraqi's because America had stole oil, interesting


If you are siding with the west then you are doing no different.


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## MFM (Jul 25, 2013)

IGotTekkers said:


> If you are siding with the west then you are doing no different.


It's not a matter of 'siding' with the West. We are the West. Saying that, I'd much rather live in the West where I have more than a pair of sandals and I don't make my wife wear clothes that make her look like a bin bag.


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## IGotTekkers (Jun 6, 2012)

MFM said:


> It's not a matter of 'siding' with the West. We are the West. Saying that, I'd much rather live in the West where I have more than a pair of sandals and I don't make my wife wear clothes that make her look like a bin bag.


I live in the west but like **** do I side with them. The rest of your points are correct lol


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## a.notherguy (Nov 17, 2008)

Normsky said:


> They are not a creation, they are merely funded for use in Proxy war. We and the U.S have been doing this since before the cold war. The biggest one being us funding the mujaheddin who after beating the USSR went on to have a civil war, the people we funded coming out on top and re branding themselves as the Taliban, a few of those later went on to be the inner circle of al-Qaeda.


gotta love the way that rambo helps the taliban in rambo 3. how times change


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## Normsky (Aug 29, 2014)

a.notherguy said:


> gotta love the way that rambo helps the taliban in rambo 3. how times change


 I believe he helps the mujahideen as the Taliban didn't come into existence until after the USSR had left Afghanistan. Also I believe the people portraying afghan fighters were Pashtuns from the northern Alliance who are actually enemies of the taliban, they are more tribal than religious.

They however are the Afgahns who practise the famous Bacha bazi which is the rape of young boys, basically women for children young boys for sex. The Afgahn Army and police currently practise it, the NA being in power. They were ****ing young boys on American bases and there was nothing the Americans could do about it.

So rambo was either supporting islamic extremists or kid ****ing drug trafficking tribes. Either way makes the movie a bit ****ed up doesn't it!


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## dann19900 (Dec 29, 2012)

IGotTekkers said:


> If you are siding with the west then you are doing no different.


I don't think you understand what isis have been doing lol, they aren't just targeting the west/western friends. Plenty of Iraqi's who probably don't like America either too


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## kuju (Sep 15, 2010)

The UK and US are directly responsible for the rise of Islamic fundementalism.....in fact we're directly responsible for helping to form, train, equip and fun all of the organisations that eventually became things like Al Quaeda and it's offshoots.

If we torture some ISIS people - they will do EXACTLY what our government are doing - they will hold up the video and say "Look!! THIS is why we must fight them". It will explode. It also then completely removes our right to say how barbaric we think those videos are. Everythign from that point..would go even further downhill.

For me though - the biggest issue is that all of this stuff has become synonymous with "Islam". "Islam promotes paedophilia....it promotes war...it promotes butchery.." etc etc etc etc....tired, media-driven b0llocks that has wedged itself in people's minds and just adds fuel to it all. To be clear - the Koran does not promote violence any more than teh Bible does (which is in many ways worse in fact).

The truth is - bad people...no matter who they are or what they've done - will always hide behind excuses. It's what people do. Paedophiles = "They enjoy it, they want it, she came on to me, " Murderers - "They had it coming because they did.....", Burglars = "Well if you leave a door open what do you expect? It's your fault...", Religion is just another thing to hide behind to justify doing things you know are wrong. It's ok to butcher people if Allah/God says so.

Several members of the US administration have claimed 'we will prevail because we have God on our side'. Really? So what...."our god" is stronger than "their god"? And that makes indiscriminate killing ok does it?

Islam is not the issue. Power hungry people; in control of large organisations that manipulate people directly via their beliefs - that's the problem. That includes all of the organsations currently involved in these wars. Especially the UK and US governments.


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## Normsky (Aug 29, 2014)

kuju said:


> The UK and US are directly responsible for the rise of Islamic fundementalism.....in fact we're directly responsible for helping to form, train, equip and fun all of the organisations that eventually became things like Al Quaeda and it's offshoots.
> 
> If we torture some ISIS people - they will do EXACTLY what our government are doing - they will hold up the video and say "Look!! THIS is why we must fight them". It will explode. It also then completely removes our right to say how barbaric we think those videos are. Everythign from that point..would go even further downhill.
> 
> ...


We are responsible for the rise of Islamic fundamentalism but not in the way you claim. ISL did not come about from the fact they had wrongs done to them.

ISL came about because of the following:

1. US/Western funding that made them go from a group that would never of gotten off the ground.

2. Backing dictators in the region and backing islamist movements against secular liberation movements in the region from the 1920's onwards.

3. Because of the fact Islamic nations are way behind the times culturally and industrially meaning Islam has not yet gone through a modernising phase like christianity and judaism.

4. Bad people and ideas just like we blame white people for their actions we need to acknowledge muslims can also do bad things due to being bad too, not just a response to western evils.

There is no one reason for the rise of Islamism. People who blame the west for every facet of something are just going one way with their ignorance just like the right go the other way. Nuance is key to underlying movements and trends.


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## 2004mark (Oct 26, 2013)

So they chop the heads off some western hostages... we then go all rambo and do the same 'but worse' to them... yeah... that'll make em back down wont it :lol:

Seriously though, ISIS are clearly a problem... but they are a problem in the middle east. I don't know why everyone gets their knickers in a twist over them so much and so patriotic over the matter. Them two students were brutally murdered in Thailand... unfortunately **** happens and it always has.


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## EpicSquats (Mar 29, 2014)

I don't care about ISIS, i'm not dumb enough to go to the Middle East and get captured by them. No sympathy for anyone who does. If any of those fvckers start doing sh1t in England it's time to start fighting fire with fire though. 10 of theirs for 1 of ours.


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## kuju (Sep 15, 2010)

Normsky said:


> We are responsible for the rise of Islamic fundamentalism but not in the way you claim. ISL did not come about from the fact they had wrongs done to them.
> 
> ISL came about because of the following:
> 
> ...


Eloquently put


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## a.notherguy (Nov 17, 2008)

Normsky said:


> I believe he helps the mujahideen as the Taliban didn't come into existence until after the USSR had left Afghanistan. Also I believe the people portraying afghan fighters were Pashtuns from the northern Alliance who are actually enemies of the taliban, they are more tribal than religious.
> 
> They however are the Afgahns who practise the famous Bacha bazi which is the rape of young boys, basically women for children young boys for sex. The Afgahn Army and police currently practise it, the NA being in power. They were ****ing young boys on American bases and there was nothing the Americans could do about it.
> 
> So rambo was either supporting islamic extremists or kid ****ing drug trafficking tribes. Either way makes the movie a bit ****ed up doesn't it!


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## mal (Dec 31, 2009)

the quicker we can drag turkey into this war the better,isis will change course like hitler did with

Russia,that will take the pressure off us:lol:


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## 2004mark (Oct 26, 2013)

People should also stop comparing them to the Nazis.

Although the ideology may have spread out of Germany, Germany was the hub. We were at war with a country and it's allies, all with boarders, infrastructure and clear leaders. ISIS are the polar opposite of that


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## IGotTekkers (Jun 6, 2012)

dann19900 said:


> I don't think you understand what isis have been doing lol, they aren't just targeting the west/western friends. Plenty of Iraqi's who probably don't like America either too


The west is friends with and allows Israel to entrap, and abuse the royal ruck out of Palestine, gaza and use unethical weapons like nail bombs, and chemical bombs which burn you from the inside out to ethnically cleanse and wipe them out. All the time any defense by hamas we call 'terrorism', do you realise that 50% of gaza population is under 18? Israel are brutaly slaughtering children and terrorism families while our western governments sit and drink coffee with them at the G8 table.

But this new isis pop up and all of a sudden everybody cares about the wellbeing of innocent people? Turn off your media outlets people, your being spun a line, spun a way of thinking and are following it. Like kuju said, isis are a direct result of western invasions in iraq. Fact.


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## a.notherguy (Nov 17, 2008)

mal said:


> the quicker we can drag turkey into this war the better,isis will change course like hitler did with
> 
> Russia,that will take the pressure off us:lol:


turkey wont do anything til they have let as many kurds die as possible.


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## Fortunatus (Apr 12, 2013)

:gun_bandana: kill them all, few nukes/bombs or whatever creates a big bang and blow the country into the ground


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## MFM (Jul 25, 2013)

People who say it's not through Islam that all this is happening, well it certainly isn't because of any other religion. I feel sorry for all the genuine Muslims but people who say it's only 'a few bad apples' are clearly deluded. There are thousands, if not millions of Muslims who still live in the dark ages and believe all the tripe that groups like ISIS are spouting.

I've said this before. If I was a Christian, and Christians started behaving like this, I would bid them farewell and either take up another religion or become an atheist. It's too convenient to say, "But I don't stand for that and they don't represent Islam". Of course they are representing Islam, so you're part of the problem, like it or not.


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## seandog69 (Mar 8, 2013)

Ian_Montrose said:


> I think we should give them their version of the X-Factor franchise. That'll teach 'em.


Or how about 'who wants to be a be-head-er'


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## harrison180 (Aug 6, 2013)

Normsky said:


> The problem is the U.K hardly has the moral superiority, our nation and its imperialist projects have cost millions of lives stretching back forever. I would be all for armed intervention if it wasn't just a pretext for wealthy people to make insane amounts of money while our troops die and innocent civilians over there make up most of the casualties of the war.
> 
> It also does not help we funded ISL against Syria and armed these thugs who are now raping 4 year old Yazidi children and setting them on fire. Would you trust a regime that funded ISL to then fight against the same people?


I wouldn't trust this government to look after an ice cream let alone anything else but sadly it's all we have.

I'm just going to sit and wait for the inevitable invasion of this country by them. IS are not an army they are a big group of criminals and land pirates. Therefore they do not class as military and the rules of war do not apply to them. Dishing out or receiving. They also have nothing to do with Europe so really the EUROPEAN bill of human rights has no effect to them.

Sooner we have someone in charge with abit of blood lust and some balls the sooner we can really finish them off. Like we did to all the other forces over the centuries


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## CAPTAIN CRUSH (Jan 11, 2014)

LOL at British Bruce.

I do enjoy these ISIS threads.

Im not disturbed by the cutting off of heads, english were doin that hundreds of years ago...fvckin amateurs.


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## Kazza61 (Jun 14, 2008)

Question: What are ISIS best known for?

Is it:

A. Heading

or

B. Heading


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## DeskSitter (Jan 28, 2013)

Normsky said:


> They are not a creation, they are merely funded for use in Proxy war. We and the U.S have been doing this since before the cold war. The biggest one being us funding the mujaheddin who after beating the USSR went on to have a civil war, the people we funded coming out on top and re branding themselves as the Taliban, a few of those later went on to be the inner circle of al-Qaeda.


Funded for use and by the financial institutions



dann19900 said:


> I don't think you understand what isis have been doing lol, they aren't just targeting the west/western friends. Plenty of Iraqi's who probably don't like America either too


Many people don't realise that the west is just a tool of the financial oligarch. Most of the bloodlines families that control the IMF/Worldbank are of European decent they use the US as a patsy. Do you really think someone that cared about their own country would set it up for such a catastrophic failure, which is where it is heading? Russia on the other hand has a culture, a sovereignty and a national identity and so something to lose, hence being targeted by the US, most recent example would be their feverish attempt to strategically destabilise Ukraine.

As a people we need to root out the psychopaths that are spearheading all this and remove their power post haste


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## simonthepieman (Jun 11, 2012)

Kazza61 said:


> Admittedly this was thought up in Wetherspoons after several pints earlier tonight (apologies) but I got to thinking; ISIS do seem extra fearsome because of their cowardly beheading acts. And quite rightly, we in the west are appalled. Having said that, here in the UK we do have a long history of the most horrendous forms of torture. So isn't it time we resurrected some of them and put them to good use?
> 
> So here is what I was thinking: why not capture an ISIS member or sympathiser (or two) and make a video where they are hung upside down and slowly peeled from the ankles. Being upside down they will stay conscious for a long time and the agony will therefore be fully experienced. If we wanted, we could even throw salt at the emerging wounds to get a few more scream for the viewers. The video could be hosted by the polar oppisite of Jihadi John - my suggestion would be "British Bruce" (Forsythe). Then we post the video on YouTube and let the fvckers know that any ISIS chappies (or chappesses) found in the UK will meet a similar fate! Might just make them think a bit.
> 
> ...


I think forcing them to drink Carlesberg would be enough torture for anyone


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## Kazza61 (Jun 14, 2008)

simonthepieman said:


> I think forcing them to drink Carlesberg would be enough torture for anyone


You could be on to something there. How about we just take them down the boozer and sort it all out over a beer and game of doms? Worked a treat when me and my mate fell out.


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## Ragingagain (Sep 4, 2010)

An eye for an eye, and the whole world would be blind. You just stick to drinking cheap booze mate


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## Normsky (Aug 29, 2014)

a.notherguy said:


> View attachment 159623


Yeah, the people fighting at the time was the mujaheddin. The taliban came out of a split which ended with a civil war which the newly emerging taliban won. However the people in Rambo 3 were dressed like Northern alliance, who were the group within the mujaheddin who did not go on to be the taliban, they were the talibans enemies. The Northern alliance are the group currently in power installed by the U.S and U.K.

As I said though both bad groups.


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## sniper16 (Oct 1, 2014)

kuju said:


> The UK and US are directly responsible for the rise of Islamic fundementalism.....in fact we're directly responsible for helping to form, train, equip and fun all of the organisations that eventually became things like Al Quaeda and it's offshoots.
> 
> If we torture some ISIS people - they will do EXACTLY what our government are doing - they will hold up the video and say "Look!! THIS is why we must fight them". It will explode. It also then completely removes our right to say how barbaric we think those videos are. Everythign from that point..would go even further downhill.
> 
> ...


If as you say The UK and US are directly responsible for the rise of Islamic fundamentalism,,Then they should be responsible for putting a stop to what there doing.


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## kuju (Sep 15, 2010)

MFM said:


> People who say it's not through Islam that all this is happening, well it certainly isn't because of any other religion. I feel sorry for all the genuine Muslims but people who say it's only 'a few bad apples' are clearly deluded. There are thousands, if not millions of Muslims who still live in the dark ages and believe all the tripe that groups like ISIS are spouting.
> 
> I've said this before. If I was a Christian, and Christians started behaving like this, I would bid them farewell and either take up another religion or become an atheist. It's too convenient to say, "But I don't stand for that and they don't represent Islam". Of course they are representing Islam, so you're part of the problem, like it or not.


The point is - whilst ISIS and others proclaim their religion....it is not their religion that leads them to behave this way - it is their version of their religion. It is an excuse.

They claim they represent Islam. There are groups that claim they represent England and our noble tradition and culture..... something that every single member of my family (almost all of whom fought in at least one of the much vaunted world wars) found utterly repugnant. Personally i don't think those groups represent England in the slightest. But they make big claims that they do and anyone who disagrees is obviously not "patriotic". Which again - I think is utter bullsh1t.

The point is - the religion is just something to hide behind and every time the media hold these people up as representing Islam it feeds their campaign. Everyone needs to stop referring to them as Islamic state or in any way representative of Islam. They are power hungry butchers and that's that..... sadly they are also extremely well equipped, trained and motivated....


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## Varg (May 17, 2010)

kuju said:


> The point is - whilst ISIS and others proclaim their religion....it is not their religion that leads them to behave this way - it is their version of their religion. It is an excuse.


In Yugoslavia the muslims were the ones on the receiving end.

The "christians" behaved appallingly.

I don't think religion has all that much to do with it tbh, just people are ****s to each other.


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## Fortis (Oct 20, 2012)

Nuke em give people one day to clear the area then drop a nuke!


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## Normsky (Aug 29, 2014)

Fortis said:


> Nuke em give people one day to clear the area then drop a nuke!


One day to clear an area with nomadic people and areas untouched by the governments control who basically live as people of that region did 1000 years ago since the dissolution of the state from the invasion? Good luck being able to evacuate 10% of the population even. And if you can live with a 90% death count for civillians, then your moral compass is guiding you very near ISL's own.

This idea we need to stop the atrocities committed on Iraqi civilians by ISL by using tactics that kills just as many as ISL is one of the most incredulous I have heard advocated. But plenty of people are advocating it.

Lastly, nuking that area would only generate support for Islamic extremism in people who had none in them before. Just like every drone that kills children in the mountain region creates lots more extremists. A good analogy is I might find Neo Nazi groups or other fascist groups disgusting and racist, but if an illegal immigrant who had a criminal record was let into the country and he raped and killed my child, i might turn to the only group I felt could help me get revenge. Lots of people who gravitate towards nazi groups are people who have been robbed or brutalized or had female relatives raped by black guys or Asians etc.


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## DeskSitter (Jan 28, 2013)

Fortis said:


> Nuke em give people one day to clear the area then drop a nuke!


Thanks for popping into the thread mate, have you decided which phone out of the Samsung galaxy alpha, galaxy s5 or iPhone 6 you're going to go with ?


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## saxondale (Nov 11, 2012)

Normsky said:


> . Lots of people who gravitate towards nazi groups are people who have been robbed or brutalized or had female relatives raped by black guys or Asians etc.


erm, you sure?


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## Normsky (Aug 29, 2014)

Yes. There was an expose done by a french undercover journalist on french neo nazi groups and one by searchlight in the uk. Both of them had members of these groups explain why they turned to far right politics. Some members were just hateful or were into jewish conspiracies, others were just thick, but there were quite a few who talk about their "awakening, like being robbed by black guys, being victimized etc.

Even the EDL's old leader Tommy Robinson had a family member who married a Muslim and was made to stop seeing her family and mistreated etc. I am not justifying people joining Islamist movements or far right movements, I am just pointing out using violence against people often leads them to become radical. Other people become radical without that.


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## saxondale (Nov 11, 2012)

Normsky said:


> Yes. There was an expose done by a french undercover journalist on french neo nazi groups and one by searchlight in the uk. Both of them had members of these groups explain why they turned to far right politics. Some members were just hateful or were into jewish conspiracies, others were just thick, but there were quite a few who talk about their "awakening, like being robbed by black guys, being victimized etc.
> 
> Even the EDL's old leader Tommy Robinson had a family member who married a Muslim and was made to stop seeing her family and mistreated etc. I am not justifying people joining Islamist movements or far right movements, I am just pointing out using violence against people often leads them to become radical. Other people become radical without that.


that doesnt back up your earlier statement, in fact, makes it even less valid. Sorry.


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## saxondale (Nov 11, 2012)

DeskSitter said:


> Many people don't realise that the west is just a tool of the financial oligarch. Most of the bloodlines families that control the IMF/Worldbank are of European decent they use the US as a patsy. Do you really think someone that cared about their own country would set it up for such a catastrophic failure, which is where it is heading? Russia on the other hand has a culture, a sovereignty and a national identity and so something to lose, hence being targeted by the US, most recent example would be their feverish attempt to strategically destabilise Ukraine.
> 
> As a people we need to root out the psychopaths that are spearheading all this and remove their power post haste


that`s conspiracy theory claptrap.


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## Frasier Crane (Oct 7, 2014)

IGotTekkers said:


> The west is friends with and allows Israel to entrap, and abuse the royal ruck out of Palestine, gaza and use unethical weapons like nail bombs, and chemical bombs which burn you from the inside out to ethnically cleanse and wipe them out. All the time any defense by hamas we call 'terrorism', do you realise that 50% of gaza population is under 18? Israel are brutaly slaughtering children and terrorism families while our western governments sit and drink coffee with them at the G8 table.
> 
> But this new isis pop up and all of a sudden everybody cares about the wellbeing of innocent people? Turn off your media outlets people, your being spun a line, spun a way of thinking and are following it. Like kuju said, isis are a direct result of western invasions in iraq. Fact.


You're confused, any sources on chemical and nail bombs being used by Israel? Ethnically cleanse......... are you for real?


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## Normsky (Aug 29, 2014)

saxondale said:


> that doesnt back up your earlier statement, in fact, makes it even less valid. Sorry.


 What are you talking about? How does saying nuking Iraqi civillians would turn more Iraqi's into extremists get constued as contradictory?

Some Muslims turn to extremism si mply out of ideology, some turn to groups like ISL in response to things like drones that kill civillians etc.

Just like some Neo Nazi's are simply drawn to Nazism ideologically, others turn to it after being victimised by someone of another race etc. That is as obvious as it gets, nuance and simple logical and rationality.

It is the whole concept of blow back. Google it.


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## Frasier Crane (Oct 7, 2014)

kuju said:


> The point is - whilst ISIS and others proclaim their religion....it is not their religion that leads them to behave this way - it is their version of their religion. It is an excuse.
> 
> They claim they represent Islam. There are groups that claim they represent England and our noble tradition and culture..... something that every single member of my family (almost all of whom fought in at least one of the much vaunted world wars) found utterly repugnant. Personally i don't think those groups represent England in the slightest. But they make big claims that they do and anyone who disagrees is obviously not "patriotic". Which again - I think is utter bullsh1t.
> 
> The point is - the religion is just something to hide behind and every time the media hold these people up as representing Islam it feeds their campaign. Everyone needs to stop referring to them as Islamic state or in any way representative of Islam. They are power hungry butchers and that's that..... sadly they are also extremely well equipped, trained and motivated....


Have you read and understood the Koran, You are part of the problem and are ignorant of the facts


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## Frasier Crane (Oct 7, 2014)

The Quran:

Quran (2:191-193) - "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief] is worse than killing...

but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone. But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)" (Translation is from the Noble Quran) The historical context of this passage is not defensive warfare, since Muhammad and his Muslims had just relocated to Medina and were not under attack by their Meccan adversaries. In fact, the verses urge offensive warfare, in that Muslims are to drive Meccans out of their own city (which they later did). The use of the word "persecution" by some Muslim translators is thus disingenuous (the actual Muslim words for persecution - "idtihad" - and oppression - a variation of "z-l-m" - do not appear in the verse). The actual Arabic comes from "fitna" which can mean disbelief, or the disorder that results from unbelief or temptation. Taken as a whole, the context makes clear that violence is being authorized until "religion is for Allah" - ie. unbelievers desist in their unbelief.

Quran (4:74) - "Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward." The martyrs of Islam are unlike the early Christians, who were led meekly to the slaughter. These Muslims are killed in battle as they attempt to inflict death and destruction for the cause of Allah. This is the theological basis for today's suicide bombers.

Quran (4:95) - "Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah with their goods and their persons. Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit (at home). Unto all (in Faith) Hath Allah promised good: But those who strive and fight Hath He distinguished above those who sit (at home) by a special reward,-" This passage criticizes "peaceful" Muslims who do not join in the violence, letting them know that they are less worthy in Allah's eyes. It also demolishes the modern myth that "Jihad" doesn't mean holy war in the Quran, but rather a spiritual struggle. Not only is the Arabic word used in this passage, but it is clearly not referring to anything spiritual, since the physically disabled are given exemption. (The Hadith reveals the context of the passage to be in response to a blind man's protest that he is unable to engage in Jihad and this is reflected in other translations of the verse).

Tabari 9:69 "Killing Unbelievers is a small matter to us" The words of Muhammad, prophet of Islam.


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## Normsky (Aug 29, 2014)

Frasier Crane said:


> Have you read and understood the Koran, You are part of the problem and are ignorant of the facts


The Koran and bible both have horrific **** in them dude.


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## gearchange (Mar 19, 2010)

Frasier Crane said:


> The Quran:
> 
> Quran (2:191-193) - "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief] is worse than killing...
> 
> ...


Can't argue with that really.I would like to know how Islam can be called a peaceful religion and on what basis non violent muslims claim to follow it if this is written ?


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## gearchange (Mar 19, 2010)

Normsky said:


> The Koran and bible both have horrific **** in them dude.


They do,but it seems all other religions moved forward with the times and are not still following rules laid down that instigate violence and murder.


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## Frasier Crane (Oct 7, 2014)

Normsky said:


> The Koran and bible both have horrific **** in them dude.


I didn't realise we had a Christian extremist problem


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## saxondale (Nov 11, 2012)

Frasier Crane said:


> I didn't realise we had a Christian extremist problem


you`ll go far kid


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## Normsky (Aug 29, 2014)

Frasier Crane said:


> I didn't realize we had a Christian extremist problem


We have in recent decades, not remember recent christian ethnic cleansing of Muslims? Difference is we don't arm them like we do Jihadists, we gave every single Islamic movement billions in cash and weaponry to crush secular governments and secular guerrilla movements, they then gained momentum and once the USSR was gone they turned their guns on us.

And yeah Islam is more of a problem, nations where Islam is the religion is generally poorer, have dictators running them backed by the west and zero educational infrastructure.

Islam at one point was far more tolerant than Islam. Most scholars also place a large part of the blame for the retardation of Islamic enlightenment on the way the Mongols committed genocide in the city of Baghdad, they set the Islamic tradition back 1000 years according to lots of scholars etc.

The more comfortable and economically comfortable nations get, the more industrialised the production process becomes, the less people hold onto backwars superstitious beliefs.

If both the bible and the Koran contain passages advocating killing gays, supporting slavery and one of those religions has far more religious based terrorism coming out of it what is creating that difference? 1.Poverty. 2. lack of education 3. No secure nation state that enforces peoples rights. Ignoring all historical and material context is pointless when discussing this topic.


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## saxondale (Nov 11, 2012)

Normsky said:


> What are you talking about? How does saying nuking Iraqi civillians would turn more Iraqi's into extremists get constued as contradictory?
> 
> Some Muslims turn to extremism si mply out of ideology, some turn to groups like ISL in response to things like drones that kill civillians etc.
> 
> ...


thats not what I commented on - people joining right wing groups because their "wifes, sisters and girlfriends were raped by blacks and Asians" was


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## Normsky (Aug 29, 2014)

saxondale said:


> thats not what I commented on - people joining right wing groups because their "wifes, sisters and girlfriends were raped by blacks and Asians" was


I was giving examples of some, not that neo-nazi movements are exclusively made up of whites whose girlfriends were raped by non whites. I was drawing a parallel to the scenario of drones killing Muslim children radicalizing Muslims.


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## IGotTekkers (Jun 6, 2012)

Frasier Crane said:


> You're confused, any sources on chemical and nail bombs being used by Israel? Ethnically cleanse......... are you for real?


Any sources? Go there and see the wounds and casualties yourself. They have used white phosphorous bombs and other experimental weapons. That's a fact mate.


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## DaveCW (Dec 9, 2013)

ughhhhhhh this again.......

The picture of the two birds squatting over paper plates we're mildly entertaining while i eat my chicken and rice but now its turned all political and such like.

Islamic Extremists are just Insane.

Peaceful Muslims are either acting on the basis of Taqiyya and Kitman, or They Are Not Muslim, these are the only only two options.


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## saxondale (Nov 11, 2012)

Normsky said:


> I was giving examples of some, not that neo-nazi movements are exclusively made up of whites whose girlfriends were raped by non whites. I was drawing a parallel to the scenario of drones killing Muslim children radicalizing Muslims.


sorry mate,what you clearly said was



> Lots of people who gravitate towards nazi groups are people who have been robbed or brutalized or had female relatives raped by black guys or Asians etc.


but your source was right wing groups and something that didnt happen to Tommy Robinsons sister, now I dont want to interrupt the bickering with a proper argument but you made a stupid comment and you`re simply not backing it up.


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## Frasier Crane (Oct 7, 2014)

saxondale said:


> you`ll go far kid


thanks son


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## Normsky (Aug 29, 2014)

saxondale said:


> sorry mate,what you clearly said was
> 
> but your source was right wing groups and something that didnt happen to Tommy Robinsons sister, now I dont want to interrupt the bickering with a proper argument but you made a stupid comment and you`re simply not backing it up.


Backing what up. I said lots of people who are drawn into far right movements have had bad expereinces that lead them to it. As I said watch the searchlight undercover expose on the BNP, one of them mentions asian men robbing family members, Tommy Robinson had a relative get abused by a muslim husband he talks about it in the documentary when tommy met mo.

I have also seen people adopt racist attitudes because of encounters with other races. My brother was assaulted at work by a group of Asians a few years ago and he had some racist views which I challenged him on. I am not saying anything absurd here, you are just refusing to acknowledge that.


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## Frasier Crane (Oct 7, 2014)

Normsky said:


> We have in recent decades, not remember recent christian ethnic cleansing of Muslims? Difference is we don't arm them like we do Jihadists, we gave every single Islamic movement billions in cash and weaponry to crush secular governments and secular guerrilla movements, they then gained momentum and once the USSR was gone they turned their guns on us.
> 
> And yeah Islam is more of a problem, nations where Islam is the religion is generally poorer, have dictators running them backed by the west and zero educational infrastructure.
> 
> ...


Where does the Bible order us to kill gays ?


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## saxondale (Nov 11, 2012)

you don`t compare the bible and the Koran like Normsky does - two different things.


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## saxondale (Nov 11, 2012)

Normsky said:


> Backing what up. I said lots of people who are drawn into far right movements have had bad expereinces that lead them to it. As I said watch the searchlight undercover expose on the BNP, one of them mentions asian men robbing family members, Tommy Robinson had a relative get abused by a muslim husband he talks about it in the documentary when tommy met mo.
> 
> I have also seen people adopt racist attitudes because of encounters with other races. My brother was assaulted at work by a group of Asians a few years ago and he had some racist views which I challenged him on. I am not saying anything absurd here, you are just refusing to acknowledge that.


ah, so your brother is now lots of people

you said - quote "Lots of people who gravitate towards nazi groups are people who have been robbed or brutalized or had female relatives raped by black guys or Asians etc."

you must be able to provide a source, no?


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## Normsky (Aug 29, 2014)

Frasier Crane said:


> Where does the Bible order us to kill gays ?


The Christian, Islamic and Jewish faiths all uphold the old testament and other bible texts, all of them must, if they practise their faith properly, support slavery, rape, killing gays and children of non believers.

Leviticus 18 and 20

"You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination."

"If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them."

Here are a few more gems that all monotheistic faiths must follow to be true believers:

Kill People Who Don't Listen to Priests

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

Kill Witches

You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB)

Kill Homosexuals

"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)

Kill Fortunetellers

A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)

Death for Hitting Dad

Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)

Death for Cursing Parents

1) If one curses his father or mother, his lamp will go out at the coming of darkness. (Proverbs 20:20 NAB)

2) All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)

Death for Adultery

If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)

Death for Fornication

A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)

Kill Nonbelievers

They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

Kill False Prophets

If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, "You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord." When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through. (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)

Kill the Entire Town if One Person Worships Another God

Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)

So if its not about poverty, blowback and historical conditions, why do all three Abrahamic religions have to uphold these and why is so much more terror coming from muslims?


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## Normsky (Aug 29, 2014)

saxondale said:


> ah, so your brother is now lots of people
> 
> you said - quote "Lots of people who gravitate towards nazi groups are people who have been robbed or brutalized or had female relatives raped by black guys or Asians etc."
> 
> you must be able to provide a source, no?


I really don't get what you are driving at, do you disagree most far right groups out there actively recruit disgruntled white males, large numbers of whom have had bad experiences with other races?

I never said the majority, I said a lot. **** go on stormfront, that bat**** insane racist forum has introduction from people who are just dumb white kids who have been beat up or something and the members start feeding them videos about jews and telling them about how blacks ruind their community. Next thing you know kid has bought into it.

All extremist groups prey heavily on the disenfranchised. Thi is pretty common knowledge, I don't get where you are coming from. Again I never said the majority of Neo Nazi's are Nazi's because black people raped their sisters. I said a large amount of people who get sucked into extremism are people who are trying to avenge something that happened to them or their loved ones.


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## raf3070 (Mar 2, 2009)

Kazza61 said:


> So here is what I was thinking: why not capture an ISIS member or sympathiser (or two) and make a video where they are hung upside down and slowly peeled from the ankles. Being upside down they will stay conscious for a long time and the agony will therefore be fully experienced. If we wanted, we could even throw salt at the emerging wounds to get a few more scream for the viewers. The video could be hosted by the polar oppisite of Jihadi John - my suggestion would be "British Bruce" (Forsythe). Then we post the video on YouTube and let the fvckers know that any ISIS chappies (or chappesses) found in the UK will meet a similar fate! Might just make them think a bit.


This is what the Mujahadeen used to do to captured Russian conscripts during the Afghan war in the 80s, tie the skin around their necks afterwards. Unfortunatley these sick ****ers plumb the depths of every atrocity....


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## Frasier Crane (Oct 7, 2014)

Normsky said:


> The Christian, Islamic and Jewish faiths all uphold the old testament and other bible texts, all of them must, if they practise their faith properly, support slavery, rape, killing gays and children of non believers.
> 
> Leviticus 18 and 20
> 
> ...


Easy mistake to make when you have little understanding about what you are spewing, Everything you have stated in support of you're position is taken out of context, which is very common.

"The commandment of Leviticus 20:13 to punish homosexuals is not applicable to Christians because it was not given to Christians. That commandment is not applicable to Americans because it was not given to Americans. (etc, etc) This seems like a simple concept, and some people may wonder why I have to explain such a simplistic notion, but because the scoffers do not read the Bible, and remain wilfully ignorant of what it says, they must have these simple concepts explained to them that we normally learn in children's Sunday school.

So are Christians commanded to kill homosexuals? No. That commandment was not given to Christians. Does that mean homosexuality is acceptable to God? No. Homosexuality is still sin and abomination in the eyes of the Lord.

So in summary all your claims are way out of context, never meant for Christians, but as an historical account of Israel and what it was commanded to do


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## Normsky (Aug 29, 2014)

Frasier Crane said:


> Easy mistake to make when you have little understanding about what you are spewing, Everything you have stated in support of you're position is taken out of context, which is very common.
> 
> "The commandment of Leviticus 20:13 to punish homosexuals is not applicable to Christians because it was not given to Christians. That commandment is not applicable to Americans because it was not given to Americans. (etc, etc) This seems like a simple concept, and some people may wonder why I have to explain such a simplistic notion, but because the scoffers do not read the Bible, and remain wilfully ignorant of what it says, they must have these simple concepts explained to them that we normally learn in children's Sunday school.
> 
> ...


 This kind of nonsense is used by modern first world christians to explain the vile nonsense in their book. Christians believe in the same god as jews and muslims. The all howeer have different stances on certain things such as jesus etc.

Those commandments were given by the god of muslims, jews and christians.

Why would the infallible christian god of the new testament of previously ordered gays to be executed? And if he is truly omnipotent, how dd he make the mistake of previously pushing killing adulterers, gays and children?

Could it be that knowledge and material conditions got easier in christian societies and thus their spiritual beliefs changed? It is no coincedence that when Christianity was taken to germanic tribes they quickly found depictions of jesus with a crown of thorns on his head and a spear in his right hand. Religeion is a mirror of the conditions a society live in.

Current muslim nations are poor and dominated by the west, i wonder why muslims of poor nations are more extremist than Muslims of metropolitan cities of the west, for the overwhelming majority of cases.


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## Frasier Crane (Oct 7, 2014)

Normsky said:


> This kind of nonsense is used by modern first world christians to explain the vile nonsense in their book. Christians believe in the same god as jews and muslims. The all howeer have different stances on certain things such as jesus etc.
> 
> Those commandments were given by the god of muslims, jews and christians.
> 
> ...


You're response is a typical emotional outburst to something you lack understanding in. You are approaching the whole topic from a child's level of comprehension, yet you insist on pushing this debate.

The Jews rejected Jesus, and in doing so reject the triune God, In the Koran, the Islamic messiah is described in the Christian Bible as the Anti Christ, again your understanding is flawed if you believe there is a kind of "God sharing" going on here.


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## Normsky (Aug 29, 2014)

Frasier Crane said:


> You're response is a typical emotional outburst to something you lack understanding in. You are approaching the whole topic from a child's level of comprehension, yet you insist on pushing this debate.
> 
> The Jews rejected Jesus, and in doing so reject the triune God, In the Koran, the Islamic messiah is described in the Christian Bible as the Anti Christ, again your understanding is flawed if you believe there is a kind of "God sharing" going on here.


Mulsims uphold jesus as a messenger and messiah who was sent to Israel with a new scripture. Both Muslims and christians believe in the same god as do Jews. You can not answer my previous questions:

*
"This kind of nonsense is used by modern first world christians to explain the vile nonsense in their book. Christians believe in the same god as jews and muslims. The all howeer have different stances on certain things such as jesus etc.*

*
*

*
Those commandments were given by the god of muslims, jews and christians.*

*
*

*
*

*
Why would the infallible christian god of the new testament of previously ordered gays to be executed? And if he is truly omnipotent, how dd he make the mistake of previously pushing killing adulterers, gays and children?*

*
*

*
Could it be that knowledge and material conditions got easier in christian societies and thus their spiritual beliefs changed? It is no coincedence that when Christianity was taken to germanic tribes they quickly found depictions of jesus with a crown of thorns on his head and a spear in his right hand. Religeion is a mirror of the conditions a society live in.*

*
*

*
Current muslim nations are poor and dominated by the west, i wonder why muslims of poor nations are more extremist than Muslims of metropolitan cities of the west, for the overwhelming majority of cases."*


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## saxondale (Nov 11, 2012)

Normsky said:


> This kind of nonsense is used by modern first world christians to explain the vile nonsense in their book. Christians believe in the same god as jews and muslims. The all howeer have different stances on certain things such as jesus etc.
> 
> Those commandments were given by the god of muslims, jews and christians.
> 
> ...


tl:dr, you saying the 11th commandment is kill gays?


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## Normsky (Aug 29, 2014)

No, although the ten commandments do say do not covet your wifes neighbor, or his slave. And all the instructions in all the holy texts are commandments.


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## saxondale (Nov 11, 2012)

Normsky said:


> I really don't get what you are driving at, do you disagree most far right groups out there actively recruit disgruntled white males, large numbers of whom have had bad experiences with other races?
> 
> I never said the majority, I said a lot. **** go on stormfront, that bat**** insane racist forum has introduction from people who are just dumb white kids who have been beat up or something and the members start feeding them videos about jews and telling them about how blacks ruind their community. Next thing you know kid has bought into it.
> 
> All extremist groups prey heavily on the disenfranchised. Thi is pretty common knowledge, I don't get where you are coming from. Again I never said the majority of Neo Nazi's are Nazi's because black people raped their sisters. I said a large amount of people who get sucked into extremism are people who are trying to avenge something that happened to them or their loved ones.


you said, quite plainly that "Lots of people who gravitate towards nazi groups are people who have been robbed or brutalized or had female relatives raped by black guys or Asians etc."

I`m calling source or rascist.

@DeskSitter - STFU real men are talking


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## saxondale (Nov 11, 2012)

Normsky said:


> No, although the ten commandments do say do not covet your wifes neighbor, or his slave. And all the instructions in all the holy texts are commandments.


fall apart under pressure don`t you fella.


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## Normsky (Aug 29, 2014)

saxondale said:


> you said, quite plainly that "Lots of people who gravitate towards nazi groups are people who have been robbed or brutalized or had female relatives raped by black guys or Asians etc."
> 
> I`m calling source or rascist.
> 
> @DeskSitter - STFU real men are talking


 How do you source individuals road into Nazism. Please stop acting mental.


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## Frasier Crane (Oct 7, 2014)

Normsky said:


> Mulsims uphold jesus as a messenger and messiah who was sent to Israel with a new scripture. Both Muslims and christians believe in the same god as do Jews. You can not answer my previous questions:
> 
> *
> "This kind of nonsense is used by modern first world christians to explain the vile nonsense in their book. Christians believe in the same god as jews and muslims. The all howeer have different stances on certain things such as jesus etc.*
> ...


Muslims see Jesus as a prophet, a man with a message, in the same vein as Mohammad yet they deny any idea of deity, which is contrary to what Christians believe.

Why would the infallible christian god of the new testament of previously ordered gays to be executed? And if he is truly omnipotent, how dd he make the mistake of previously pushing killing adulterers, gays and children?

Why do you assume he made a mistake?

I find it strange that men and women today who challenge Christianity, using as one of their reasons the slaughter of men, women, and children, are often supportive of abortion which is nothing less that the true slaughter of innocent children by the millions.

"The book of Revelation teaches Christ will come to earth and literally destroy millions because of the rebellion and unbelief of man's heart. In fact, the tribulation period, which is described for us in Revelation 6-19, will among other things, demonstrate the true nature of man and just what lengths he will go to in his sin and rebellion when left to himself. Christ spoke of this time in Matthew 24. So the Old Testament is not alone in demonstrating God's wrath and judgment against sin"


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## Mclovin147 (Nov 11, 2013)

I was gonna input at around page 3 (Like I do when buying the sun, bu-dum bu-dum!) but there have been some new develemts since, of which I know little about (Interesting read though).

One thing I will say is I'm glad at least a few people have read between the lines, and that this whole ISIS threat has a hidden agenda, not to mention it began because of western allied forces (Through both provoking, training and arming ISIS).

Goverments want/need you to fear/hate ISIS, they need their excuses to do the things they do...A very small handful of British people have died as a direct result of this 'ISIS threat' (Most of which were abroad playing with fire).

THOUSANDS of British people die each year through smoking alone. It gets its moment in the spotlight once a month if it's lucky, then tax will be added. Not to mention how much of a drain on the NHS it is. But nothing/little is done because it is worth billions. If safety was of the utmost concern to the PM and the country etc I think ISIS would become irrelevant pretty damn quick.

Make Ya Think Dont it!


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## saxondale (Nov 11, 2012)

Normsky said:


> How do you source individuals road into Nazism. Please stop acting mental.


you claim "lots of ............." how do you know this?

simple question mate, lets keep things civil


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## Fortis (Oct 20, 2012)

DeskSitter said:


> Thanks for popping into the thread mate, have you decided which phone out of the Samsung galaxy alpha, galaxy s5 or iPhone 6 you're going to go with ?


You shagged miss piggy yet ?


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## GCMAX (Dec 31, 2013)

Seen this video? The BBC thinks its acceptable to debate the validity of having a caliphate in the UK and changing our judicial process to Sharia law!






*If I had control of this country I would;*

Sack the government, try them for treason and war crimes

Stop all the foreign wars

Bring our soldiers home

Stop foreign aid

Jail all the leftist traitors indefinitely

Destroy the BBC and left-wing Britain hating media

Stop the building of Mosques

Close the borders

Deport all the illegal + criminal immigrants, all the immigrants who refuse to fit in and all the immigrants who refuse to work

Repatriate the descendants of immigrants until our population level no longer disrupts the normal operation of important public services

Promote the importance of traditional values and the British way of life, no more multiculturalism

Would you vote for that?


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## Frasier Crane (Oct 7, 2014)

GCMAX said:


> Seen this video? The BBC thinks its acceptable to debate the validity of having a caliphate in the UK and changing our judicial process to Sharia law!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah! you're the English " Ron Paul"


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## DeskSitter (Jan 28, 2013)

Fortis said:


> You shagged miss piggy yet ?


Ask her yourself ?


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## Mclovin147 (Nov 11, 2013)

I'd urged you all to watch below, he touches on the same theories/opinions I mentioned earlier.






I personally think he doesn't get enough credit for his intelligence/theories.

He gave a speech to 50,000 people live on stage in London not so long ago (About 3 weeks ago) about social and economic equality...It was not televised, and you can see why. I personally think he is spot on with most things.

Not bad for an ex heroin addict!


----------



## Dan TT (May 9, 2012)

Lets just go to war and fcuk the lot of em. Or send all people who don't wanna' work over there!!


----------



## saxondale (Nov 11, 2012)

Fortis said:


> You shagged anything yet ?


wut you saying?


----------



## MrTwisted (Sep 14, 2014)

GCMAX said:


> Seen this video? The BBC thinks its acceptable to debate the validity of having a caliphate in the UK and changing our judicial process to Sharia law!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Where would you find the money to do all that?


----------



## r33-tom (Jul 7, 2014)

MrTwisted said:


> Where would you find the money to do all that?


Just go home and print some on some old 1997 desktop printer. That's what the banks and government seem to do...


----------



## MrTwisted (Sep 14, 2014)

Lmao extreme right wing veiws and now hyperinflation .....


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## Normsky (Aug 29, 2014)

Frasier Crane said:


> Muslims see Jesus as a prophet, a man with a message, in the same vein as Mohammad yet they deny any idea of deity, which is contrary to what Christians believe.
> 
> Why would the infallible christian god of the new testament of previously ordered gays to be executed? And if he is truly omnipotent, how dd he make the mistake of previously pushing killing adulterers, gays and children?
> 
> ...


So people killing gays for god is not a mistake. And you think you have moral superiority over ISL?


----------



## Normsky (Aug 29, 2014)

GCMAX said:


> Seen this video? The BBC thinks its acceptable to debate the validity of having a caliphate in the UK and changing our judicial process to Sharia law!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 So basically you would try and recreate Hitler's social experiment of Re-Tuetonising an Aryan population? Wonderful. Literally you just listed all of the national socialist goals, you just picked a new scapegoat.


----------



## Normsky (Aug 29, 2014)

By the way ISL want us to go and fight them, the whole impetus behind killing civilians is to try and force the west into open confrontation and another quagmire in the Islamic world.

People don't seem to have paid attention to Osama. The whole stategy of Islamists is to entise the west into wars they can not afford and to economically drain them while stretching their defensive forces thin and making the public lose support. That is the states stategy of the Islamist coalition. If you support wars against them you are doing exactly what they want you to do.


----------



## Varg (May 17, 2010)

I wouldn't even visit, never mind live in an islamic country where people are regularly beheaded or killed for their beliefs.

The day the UK starts flaying people alive is the day I pack up and move to Ireland or Scandinavia.


----------



## Frasier Crane (Oct 7, 2014)

Normsky said:


> So people killing gays for god is not a mistake. And you think you have moral superiority over ISL?


If God is infallible, what do you think? Again, your trying to use an historical account of Israel as some kind of command for Christians today to start killing gays.

Where have I claimed moral superiority over Isil?

Do you support the idea of abortion?


----------



## kuju (Sep 15, 2010)

Frasier Crane said:


> I didn't realise we had a Christian extremist problem


Deuteronomy 20:10-14New International Version (NIV)

10 When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace. 11 If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you. 12 If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city. 13 When the Lord your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. 14 As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the Lord your God gives you from your enemies.

Exodus 32:27 ". . . Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour."

Deut 21:10-12 "When thou goest forth to war against thine enemies, and the LORD thy God hath delivered them into thine hands, and thou hast taken them captive, And seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldest have her to thy wife; Then thou shalt bring her home to thine house, and she shall shave her head, and pare her nails; "

You're right...generally there isn't much of a Christian extremist problem. But that doesn't mean they don't exist......try looking up the Anti Balaka; a Central African Christian extremist group currently practicing ethnic cleansing - not so much in the news sadly; they're not attacking anything western governments care about.

What about the riots in Myanmar last year...Buddhist monks killing people - I wouldn't describe Buddhism as in any way a violent religion.....quite the opposite generally. But there exists what appears to be almost a neo nazi group that purports to be Buddhist. (969 movement).

The point being - again - that the interpretation of religious texts and their use to justify people doing bad things is universal; yes there are passages in all the major religious texts that speak of violence; quite savagely in most - but that doesn't automatically make everyone who practices that religion a bloodthirsty barbarian. As you rightly say... *we*...don't have a christian extremist problem; but they're reading much the same bible that extremist groups are...so surely...the key word is "extremist", rather than Christian. Or Buddhist. Or Muslim.

And in what way does thinking this make me part of the problem? Is the world really that black and white? Either I agree that all Muslims are terrorist extremists or I don't and in that case i'm "one of them"? Seriously? Because I've met and worked with many Muslims over the years and I've always found them to be the most gentle and giving people. I've certainly found them to be more gentle and giving than many self-proclaimed Christians i've met.

The problem is extremism. We don't solve that by making sweeping generalisations about everyone who practices a particular religion.


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## sneeky_dave (Apr 2, 2013)

I was just a boy when the

infidels came to my village in their Blackhawk

helicopters. The infidels fired at the oil fields and

they lit up like the eyes of Allah. Burning oil

rained down from the sky and cooked everything

it touched. I could only hide myself and cry as

my goats were consumed by the fiery black

liquid death. In the midst of the chaos, I could

swear that I heard my goats screaming for help.

As quickly as they had come, the infidels were

gone. It was on that day I put a jihad on them.

And if you don't believe it, then you'd better kill

me now, because I'll put a jihad on you, too.


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## skipper1987 (May 1, 2013)

Look out the fair trade tea bag brigade will be out on force in this thread and befor long it will turn into look what the Jews are doing to Palestine!!!

I say **** religion Isis Islam what ever!! The truth is 99.9% of Muslims are closet extremists!!! And support Isis 110% and befor the do gooders jump on it and say it's BECAUSE WE STOLE THERE OIL P1SS OFF!! No it's because were non Muslim infadels and they won't a world without us!! Simples!!!

OP GREAT IDEA WITH THE TORTURE!!! I would personally volunteer to carry it out then go home after and eat my chicken dinner without a second thought!! Let me know when the next wether spoons meet up is il be there!!!


----------



## skipper1987 (May 1, 2013)

kuju said:


> Deuteronomy 20:10-14New International Version (NIV)
> 
> 10 When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace. 11 If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you. 12 If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city. 13 When the Lord your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. 14 As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the Lord your God gives you from your enemies.
> 
> ...


Is this not from the old book??


----------



## Frasier Crane (Oct 7, 2014)

kuju said:


> Deuteronomy 20:10-14New International Version (NIV)
> 
> 10 When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace. 11 If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you. 12 If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city. 13 When the Lord your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. 14 As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the Lord your God gives you from your enemies.
> 
> ...


Again, these Old Testament quotes have been addressed in previous posts, the Bible, contrary to popular misguided belief, is not open for individual interpretation, which is where these so called "Christians" are in major error.

Please show me anywhere in the Bible where we are commanded to decapitate or mutilate any persons in the name of God.

Christianity is undoubtedly a religion of peace.

How can it be called extremism if their Holy book instructs them to do what they are doing.

You're correct, sweeping generalisations don't solve this problem, however that is what you are doing by not understanding both sides and commenting on it.


----------



## Frasier Crane (Oct 7, 2014)

skipper1987 said:


> Look out the fair trade tea bag brigade will be out on force in this thread and befor long it will turn into look what the Jews are doing to Palestine!!!
> 
> I say **** religion Isis Islam what ever!! The truth is 99.9% of Muslims are closet extremists!!! And support Isis 110% and befor the do gooders jump on it and say it's BECAUSE WE STOLE THERE OIL P1SS OFF!! No it's because were non Muslim infadels and they won't a world without us!! Simples!!!
> 
> OP GREAT IDEA WITH THE TORTURE!!! I would personally volunteer to carry it out then go home after and eat my chicken dinner without a second thought!! Let me know when the next wether spoons meet up is il be there!!!


This right here I'm afraid, is more accurate than the PC crew would like to admit.


----------



## Mclovin147 (Nov 11, 2013)

skipper1987 said:


> Look out the fair trade tea bag brigade will be out on force in this thread and befor long it will turn into look what the Jews are doing to Palestine!!!
> 
> I say **** religion Isis Islam what ever!! The truth is 99.9% of Muslims are closet extremists!!! And support Isis 110% and befor the do gooders jump on it and say it's BECAUSE WE STOLE THERE OIL P1SS OFF!! No it's because were non Muslim infadels and they won't a world without us!! Simples!!!
> 
> OP GREAT IDEA WITH THE TORTURE!!! I would personally volunteer to carry it out then go home after and eat my chicken dinner without a second thought!! Let me know when the next wether spoons meet up is il be there!!!


Thoroughly disagree.

Now, this topic is about a very small terrorist group of extremists in the East that is trying to expand and spread its beliefs of brutal violence in an effort to supposedly spread their 'version' Islam (Or it could be to voice their anger with suppression from western countries over the past few decades, who knows)

Anyhow, look at what you just said, and look at what ISIS have done/do/say

You are on the same path in which ISIS members are created. These people are not inheritly evil, and neither are you. You aggression is due to media propaganda, and nothing else, As is the case with a very large percentage of Racists (I'm not saying your racist at all mate, I fully understand your aggro is with extremists of all colours and backgrounds) and extremists from other religions and those with aggressive beliefs in general.

But your spreading the same message as ISIS, speaking of toture etc, you may well be half-heartedly joking just to express yourself, but other British people are going to be taking it too far soon, and becoming the very idiots they stand against.

And that my friends is when we should start battoning down the windows and locking the doors!

I haven't got a clue on how to solve the problem, but violence is just proven to create more violence as is the sole reason this group exists. But I do know this threat is not worthy of constant front page news and the media creating constant tension between religious faiths within Britain.


----------



## Imy79 (Oct 19, 2007)

skipper1987 said:


> Look out the fair trade tea bag brigade will be out on force in this thread and befor long it will turn into look what the Jews are doing to Palestine!!!
> 
> I say **** religion Isis Islam what ever!! *The truth is 99.9% of Muslims are closet extremists!!! And support Isis 110% *and befor the do gooders jump on it and say it's BECAUSE WE STOLE THERE OIL P1SS OFF!! No it's because were non Muslim infadels and they won't a world without us!! Simples!!!
> 
> OP GREAT IDEA WITH THE TORTURE!!! I would personally volunteer to carry it out then go home after and eat my chicken dinner without a second thought!! Let me know when the next wether spoons meet up is il be there!!!


Totally baseless and completely the opposite!

You will find 99% are not extremist and definitely not pro ISIS!!!


----------



## Normsky (Aug 29, 2014)

Imy79 said:


> Totally baseless and completely the opposite!
> 
> You will find 99% are not extremist and definitely not pro ISIS!!!


Exactly, although I wouldn't say 99% are anti-extremism, I think Islamic fundamentalism is much worse than a lot of liberals claim, with large chunks of the Islamic population supporting death for adultry and apostasy, however these large chunks are no way representative of the entire region as a whole nor should we use a strategy that punishes the innocent and moderates because they are of the same ethno-cultural grpup.

The main opposition on the ground to ISL are muslims from Syria who have been fighting western backed ISL, muslims rioting and organizing in Turkey against ISL, Kurdish Muslims who have been fighting and rescuing Christians and Yazidi's against ISL. It was the secular west who funded, trained and backed ISL and it was almost all muslims who fought them.

Have you done much reading on the subject?


----------



## Imy79 (Oct 19, 2007)

Normsky said:


> Exactly, although I wouldn't say 99% are anti-extremism, I think Islamic fundamentalism is much worse than a lot of liberals claim, with large chunks of the Islamic population supporting death for adultry and apostasy, however these large chunks are no way representative of the entire region as a whole nor should we use a strategy that punishes the innocent and moderates because they are of the same ethno-cultural grpup.
> 
> The main opposition on the ground to ISL are muslims from Syria who have been fighting western backed ISL, muslims rioting and organizing in Turkey against ISL, Kurdish Muslims who have been fighting and rescuing Christians and Yazidi's against ISL. It was the secular west who funded, trained and backed ISL and it was almost all muslims who fought them.
> 
> Have you done much reading on the subject?


Yes I have read some information on the subject.

The main issue which guns ISIL down , even with their warped views\beliefs is the whole concept of what they are trying to achieve and the way they are going about it. They are trying to achieve an exculivist state, which is completely incorrect, actually the contrary. Secondly they are making rules\regulations as they see fit from their leader Al Baghdadi, who is claiming to be the leader of Muslims!, its a cult movement nothing more, needs to be eradicated as soon as possible. There are conspiracy theories surrounding him, but that neither here or there..

You're right, that's why you have all the other Muslim factions fighting against them, as they stand for something that is is totally warped even according to their views. Islamic Fundamentalism is not much worse than anyone claims, it is a minority and will always remain this.

Anyway that's me done on the thread, just came in as I read the last page and saw the comment about 99% Muslims being extremists and pro ISIS...


----------



## Frasier Crane (Oct 7, 2014)

Imy79 said:


> Yes I have read some information on the subject.
> 
> The main issue which guns ISIL down , even with their warped views\beliefs is the whole concept of what they are trying to achieve and the way they are going about it. They are trying to achieve an exculivist state, which is completely incorrect, actually the contrary. Secondly they are making rules\regulations as they see fit from their leader Al Baghdadi, who is claiming to be the leader of Muslims!, its a cult movement nothing more, needs to be eradicated as soon as possible. There are conspiracy theories surrounding him, but that neither here or there..
> 
> ...


Believers, take neither Jews nor Christians for your friends." (Surah 5:51)

"Make war on them until idolatry shall cease and God's religion shall reign supreme." (Surah 8:36-)

"...make war on the leaders of unbelief...Make war on them: God will chastise them at your hands and humble them. He will grant you victory over them..." (Surah 9:12-)

"Fight against such as those to whom the Scriptures were given [Jews and Christians]...until they pay tribute out of hand and are utterly subdued." (Surah 9:27-)

"If you do not fight, He will punish you sternly, and replace you by other men." (Surah 9:37-)

"Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Deal firmly with them." (Surah 9:121-)

"Muhammad is God's apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another." (Surah 48:29)

"Though people of good will naturally recoil from attaching blame to a major world religion itself, we can no longer afford such sentimentality. No longer dare we allow Islam to escape its undeniable responsibility. Yet former President Bush called Islam a peace-loving religion. he devastating acts of war by Islamic terrorists against the United States were greeted by naive statements from well-intentioned government leaders to the effect that we must distinguish between terrorism perpetrated by extremist groups and Islam itself which is peaceful...Several years ago Steven Emerson produced for PBS an excellent video titled Jihad In America. Its cameras went directly inside cell groups associated with mosques here in America where eager young Muslims were being recruited for jihad against the United States. Muslim leaders are shown giving speeches about bringing America to its knees through terrorism.... terrorists act in direct obedience to Muhammad, the Qur'an, Allah and Islam. While nominal Muslims reject the idea, all Islamic scholars agree that it is the religious duty of every Muslim to use violence whenever possible to spread Islam until it has taken over the world...There is a natural reluctance to accept any statement which seems to be a prejudiced attack upon a world religion. It is the fear of such prejudice which prevents the world from facing the truth." (Berean Call, Sept.19, 2001)


----------



## Normsky (Aug 29, 2014)

Frasier Crane said:


> Again, these Old Testament quotes have been addressed in  previous posts, the Bible, contrary to popular misguided belief, is not open for individual interpretation, which is where these so called "Christians" are in major error.
> 
> Please show me anywhere in the Bible where we are commanded to decapitate or mutilate any persons in the name of God.
> 
> ...


Not according to jesus and the new testament itself:

5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Jesus was a continuation of the old.


----------



## Frasier Crane (Oct 7, 2014)

Normsky said:


> Not according to jesus and the new testament itself:
> 
> 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
> 
> Jesus was a continuation of the old.


Mt 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets. The preceding verses were so opposed to the teachings of the scribes and Pharisees that some might assert that he was a destroyer of the law. He replies that he has not come to destroy it, but to fulfill. He does not say that he has come to perpetuate it. To fulfill. To complete its purpose. He was the end of the law. It was a "schoolmaster to bring us to Christ", but "after faith is come we are no longer under the schoolmaster" (Ga 3:24,25).


----------



## GCMAX (Dec 31, 2013)

Hey this feminazi http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/members/munchiebites/ called me a racist and now I have negative rep... wtf

Now Normsky below has negative repped me for this post! These two are working together. What a pair of pathetic whiny liberal sell-outs. Makes me wonder why you would join a bodybuilding forum if all you ever do is chat about rubbish online that has nothing to do with bodybuilding and to think my tax is paying for your unemployment benefit. I want a refund.


----------



## Normsky (Aug 29, 2014)

Also, jesus advocating killing children who swear at their parents in the new testament:

20:9 For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him.

So does this mean christians are all child kilelrs because their dumb holy book tells them to do so? No, christians, muslims and jews all cherrypick their dumb rules, if a christian followed the rules of his religion he would be willing to kill and do all kinds of horrors, so would muslims if they truly followed the Koran. So would jews if they actually stuck with the old testament and the torah.

But as societies get more advanced, as conditions get better, poverty drops and education rises, people start to pick and choose the parts to follow and soon enough are religious in traditional senses only.

Muslim nations in alot of places are still economically and politically backwards, the religious literal interpretation of the Koran reflects this. The more advanced of the islamic nations are extremely unsurprisingly far more religious in tradition only and have dropped many of their books teachings as their access to education and secular and modern statehood grows.


----------



## Normsky (Aug 29, 2014)

GCMAX said:


> Hey this feminazi http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/members/munchiebites/ called me a racist and now I have negative rep... wtf


----------



## GCMAX (Dec 31, 2013)

Normsky said:


>


Pathetic wastrel, can't take the heat when someone makes a comment that you don't agree with. Try working out to overcome your insecurity and guilt.


----------



## skipper1987 (May 1, 2013)

Imy79 said:


> Totally baseless and completely the opposite!
> 
> You will find 99% are not extremist and definitely not pro ISIS!!!


Prove it???


----------



## Normsky (Aug 29, 2014)

GCMAX said:


> Pathetic wastrel, can't take the heat when someone makes a comment that you don't agree with. Try working out to overcome your insecurity and guilt.


I am a fat piece of **** and still have used my cunning and Guile to get a girlfriend. SBS, Not by strength by guile, would know that if you loved this country.

I am also guilty about being white. I secretly support the Islamification of Britain. You got me, you got me!

I am one of the sleeper agents of the QueerNegroIslamoNaziShariaCrypto-Communist Conspiracy. You are persecuted and treated as a second class citizen in your own country.

Now let me try and stuff this bloody cat back in this bag.


----------



## skipper1987 (May 1, 2013)

Normsky said:


> Also, jesus advocating killing children who swear at their parents in the new testament:
> 
> 20:9 For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him.
> 
> ...


We don't have a Christian extremist issue do we stop passing the book over to non Muslims u don't get Dorothy the local church goer chopping heads off!!!


----------



## skipper1987 (May 1, 2013)

Mclovin147 said:


> Thoroughly disagree.
> 
> Now, this topic is about a very small terrorist group of extremists in the East that is trying to expand and spread its beliefs of brutal violence in an effort to supposedly spread their 'version' Islam (Or it could be to voice their anger with suppression from western countries over the past few decades, who knows)
> 
> ...


Not true mate my anger is not from mainstream media propaganda it's from actual facts internet footage and first hand experiencesform serving personal on the front line of these worn torn countries!!

Isis is not a small group it's very well funded worldwide. I stand by my views 99% of Muslims are closet extremists!! I live very close to Bradford! Walk these streets and tell me there a peaceful non extremist race and religion! I have no time for ANY RELIGION should all be banned but Islam IMO is the worst evil savage pathetic backwards most mongrel religion the world has ever seen!


----------



## skipper1987 (May 1, 2013)

Frasier Crane said:


> This right here I'm afraid, is more accurate than the PC crew would like to admit.


Thanks mate glad some1 is on the ball. Reps coming your way!


----------



## Normsky (Aug 29, 2014)

skipper1987 said:


> We don't have a Christian extremist issue do we stop passing the book over to non Muslims u don't get Dorothy the local church goer chopping heads off!!!


Actually yes we have in the last 20 years, we have had christian's commit genocide in Africa and the Balkans against muslims. Again stop stating we have no Christian extremist problem. We just have less of one than we do a muslim extremist one(although christian extremists have killed way more than muslims have, 9/11 killed under 3,000 recent christian genocides are in six figures. Due to many muslim nations being poorer with less education and due to the fact we have been funding extremists for the last 100 years in the middle east the volume or radicals of muslim persuasion is higher.

Just look how women were treated in society before we funded extremists in Afghanistan and after your government funded extremists in afghanistan. Now why do you think we have such a muslim extremist problem?

Lastly, enjoy christians burning suspected witches in Africa, the same country a law is being passed which makes homosexuality punishable by death, a law that is being pushed through with the help of christian fundamentalists from the west who are giving these african politicians millions in donations.


----------



## skipper1987 (May 1, 2013)

Normsky said:


> Actually yes we have in the last 20 years, we have had christian's commit genocide in Africa and the Balkans against muslims. Again stop stating we have no Christian extremist problem. We just have less of one than we do a muslim extremist one(although christian extremists have killed way more than muslims have, 9/11 killed under 3,000 recent christian genocides are in six figures. Due to many muslim nations being poorer with less education and due to the fact we have been funding extremists for the last 100 years in the middle east the volume or radicals of muslim persuasion is higher.
> 
> Just look how women were treated in society before we funded extremists in Afghanistan and after your government funded extremists in afghanistan. Now why do you think we have such a muslim extremist problem?
> 
> ...


----------



## Normsky (Aug 29, 2014)

GCMAX said:


> Hey this feminazi http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/members/munchiebites/ called me a racist and now I have negative rep... wtf
> 
> Now Normsky below has negative repped me for this post! These two are working together. What a pair of pathetic whiny liberal sell-outs. *Makes me wonder why you would join a bodybuilding forum if all you ever do is chat about rubbish online that has nothing to do with bodybuilding* and to think my tax is paying for your unemployment benefit. I want a refund.


Pot .... Kettle ......


----------



## Normsky (Aug 29, 2014)

skipper1987 said:


> No one is calling you racist, they are saying you are completely blowing off a rational and intellectually honest analysis in favour of one that panders to the lowest common denominator.
> 
> When Muslims do ****ed up ****, which I agree they do and far too often, you condemn it and rightly so. But when Christians do it, killing far more people in the process, you judge it by a different set of rules.
> 
> And yes Britain gives aid, it also killed millions in imperialist endeavors around the globe. Do you deny British imperialism has killed far far more than Islamic extremism?


----------



## skipper1987 (May 1, 2013)

Normsky said:


> I am fully aware of our bloody history we have committed many many terrible crimes try Christian crusaders were probably the worst!! But we have moved on from that this thread is not about this subject so I find it pointless dragging it up.
> 
> I stand by what I have said and nobody will change my views This country needs to rid the Britain of Islam and Muslims need to live by our laws not sharia law. I totally agree that when dealing with Isis torture is acceptable I also believe sex offenders deserve the same. Death to all religion and the world would be a better place.


----------



## GCMAX (Dec 31, 2013)

Normsky said:


> I am a fat piece of ****


Well said.



Normsky said:


> I am one of the sleeper agents of the QueerNegroIslamoNaziShariaCrypto-Communist


Traitor would have sufficed.



Normsky said:


> used my cunning and Guile to get a girlfriend


Jacking off to a poster of Che Guevara while sticking you thumb up your exit hole does not equal having a girlfriend.



Normsky said:


> if you loved this country


Lefty troll detected.


----------



## Normsky (Aug 29, 2014)

skipper1987 said:


> Muslims in this country do live by our law not sharia. This myth that they can have criminal charges brought under sharia is one of the most inane and silly statements by fringe elements of the right.
> 
> Muslims like christians and jews have the right to muslim or christian or jewish courts for civil matters, this right has been available to British citizens for hundreds of years. Anything of a criminal nature can not be tried in anything but a secular and official court.
> 
> And if you will never change your mind even if evidence is brought to your attention, well thats about the worst quality a man can have. It is one that would lead this nation to lose all of the rights and civil liberties it currently affords its citizens, ironically this would give it the same characteristics of every Islamic nation you are so against.


----------



## Normsky (Aug 29, 2014)

GCMAX said:


> Well said.
> 
> Traitor would have sufficed.
> 
> ...


 Che Guevara was a leninist who advocated the state siezing control of the means of production and the dictatorship of the proletariat with no votes or anything other than centralism until all states were socialist, upon which time states would wither away and money, states, class and borders would cease to exist.

I believe in a free market and a democratic state which is subject to a free populations rights to the vote, to unalienable rights and to property and safety under the law. A strong supported military which follows a non intervention policy and a strong defensive capability.

Please tell me again about how much my politics are like Che Guevara's, a man who organized democrats to be rounded up and shot once he siezed power. Oh wait, you don't really understand economic theory do you, you just know you hate people. Good try though.


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## GCMAX (Dec 31, 2013)

In case you are confused Normsky;

This is a girl:

View attachment 159707


This is not a girl:

View attachment 159706


This is your flag:

View attachment 159708


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## Mclovin147 (Nov 11, 2013)

skipper1987 said:


> Not true mate my anger is not from mainstream media propaganda it's from actual facts internet footage and first hand experiencesform serving personal on the front line of these worn torn countries!!
> 
> Isis is not a small group it's very well funded worldwide. I stand by my views 99% of Muslims are closet extremists!! I live very close to Bradford! Walk these streets and tell me there a peaceful non extremist race and religion! I have no time for ANY RELIGION should all be banned but Islam IMO is the worst evil savage pathetic backwards most mongrel religion the world has ever seen!


I do agree that something has to be done to contain radical Islamic views within Britain, it is simply not acceptable to march british streets and claim that anyone non-Muslim should burn in hell etc. that to me needs to be dealt with in a court of law, it should be that simple. There should not even be a need to resort to violence.

Yes I am aware some areas are infamous for religious tension, even being harassed/attacked. But why are these issues not being dealt with, again, by the police, as the same situation involving two non-religious people would be? Why because of their religions is there some mysterious, shrouded evil veil been created, to the point in which these areas are unapproachable to a lot of people?

I think the police need to be given more power. I do not believe our police should allow for ANY religious activities that cause harm/panic to others. It completely defeats the object of having a police force.

And as for serving soldiers witnessing first hand, what did you mean? I'm guessing hatred for western countries?

Because if you want to talk facts, your in for a suprise. Musilims, factually, are the real victims of war brutality.

Eitherway mate, I do understand what your saying and I have myself shared the same views before I started taking a real interest in current and past affairs (I'v just turned 20, got a lot to learn lol), but I belive violence will not help nearly as much as asking, answering and solving the question "Why are ISIS beheading people". As Iv said, they are not inheriltly evil, they were born just as you and I were, so what changed? That is what must be sought after and corrected in order to stop these groups emerging in the future.

Just my opinion mate


----------



## Normsky (Aug 29, 2014)

GCMAX said:


> In case you are confused Normsky;
> 
> This is a girl:
> 
> ...


`

You failed to attach the files correctly. Do you want to try again?


----------



## Normsky (Aug 29, 2014)

Mclovin147 said:


> I do agree that something has to be done to contain radical Islamic views within Britain, it is simply not acceptable to march british streets and claim that anyone non-Muslim should burn in hell etc. that to me needs to be dealt with in a court of law, it should be that simple. There should not even be a need to resort to violence.
> 
> Yes I am aware some areas are infamous for religious tension, even being harassed/attacked. But why are these issues not being dealt with, again, by the police, as the same situation involving two non-religious people would be? Why because of their religions is there some mysterious, shrouded evil veil been created, to the point in which these areas are unapproachable to a lot of people?
> 
> ...


I generally agree with everything in your post apart from the idea people marching need to be dealt with in a court of law? We have free speech in this country. Neo Nazi's are allowed to march, Black nationalists are allowed to march, why can't people march telling you you will burn in hell, it is the fact you can do so that makes this society a free one.

People like my grandad served in wars so that we maintained that right.


----------



## skipper1987 (May 1, 2013)

Normsky said:


> They do not live by our laws they run a riot and do as they please knowing the police are powerless to stop them. As for me not changing my mind show me the evidence that will change my mind???


----------



## Normsky (Aug 29, 2014)

skipper1987 said:


> How are they running wild and getting away with it? How are they not subject to British law? This is simply false.


----------



## mcfly666 (Jun 10, 2014)

Might have already been said, and I'm not normally like this..

Anyway best thing to do is escalation of war, this should have started at 9/11 or even earlier. Basically they use a nail bomb, hurt a hostage, hijack or look at us the wrong way. We drop a nuke. we catch them plotting a terrorist plot, we find out where they live/training ground is and just drop a nuke 'Ad infinitum'

At the end of the day they are just ****tards with sticks, keep on ****ing up their counties scorched earth uninhabitable style and they will soon get the picture. or they and their way of life will be wiped off the map.

All they are doing (generalization) is counting on western countries not to use our full force and fire should be met with fire, not some half ****d attempt with hands tied behind backs in order please the vast majority of 'no war' muppets.


----------



## GCMAX (Dec 31, 2013)

Normsky said:


> `
> 
> You failed to attach the files correctly. Do you want to try again?


Click the links in blue, left mouse button.

I'm left wondering why you chose to join a website for bodybuilding when you admit you are fat, don't work out and don't contribute to weightlifting discussions. Were you trawling the net for websites that have UK in the title in order to fight online 'racism' and nationalism?


----------



## Normsky (Aug 29, 2014)

GCMAX said:


> Click the links in blue, left mouse button.
> 
> I'm left wondering why you chose to join a website for bodybuilding when you admit you are fat, don't work out and don't contribute to weightlifting discussions. Were you trawling the net for websites that have UK in the title in order to fight online 'racism' and nationalism?


Still not working Einstein.


----------



## Normsky (Aug 29, 2014)

GCMAX said:


> Click the links in blue, left mouse button.
> 
> I'm left wondering why you chose to join a website for bodybuilding when you admit you are fat, don't work out and don't contribute to weightlifting discussions. Were you trawling the net for websites that have UK in the title in order to fight online 'racism' and nationalism?


You are literally the only one stalking people who disagree with you and having emotional tantrums. People have different opinions than you, get over it, you are a big boy. And as for me being overweight, yeah I am, hence joining a forum about getting fit. And seeing your picture you have a few extra pounds yourself. It's ok though dude. We are both chubsters, nothing wrong with it. Be proud, don't be a hard ****!


----------



## MrTwisted (Sep 14, 2014)

skipper1987 said:


> Where is YOUR evidence that they do not live by our laws? Or is all media in the uk trying to cover it up? If there was 1 shred of evidence that this was true it would be plastered everywhere by ukip. Fact.


----------



## Mclovin147 (Nov 11, 2013)

Normsky said:


> I generally agree with everything in your post apart from the idea people marching need to be dealt with in a court of law? We have free speech in this country. Neo Nazi's are allowed to march, Black nationalists are allowed to march, why can't people march telling you you will burn in hell, it is the fact you can do so that makes this society a free one.
> 
> People like my grandad served in wars so that we maintained that right.


Agreed it is a fine line between being civilised and not breaching someone's rights.

But I do not belive any man or group should have the right March british streets and condem and demand the death of millions of people so publicly. I belive that is in its self a breach other people's rights, like the non-Muslim children passing by having to hear of how they should burn in hell.

That should be stopped ASAP IMO (Knew something would pop up for us to dispute eventually  )


----------



## skipper1987 (May 1, 2013)

MrTwisted said:


> I am no keyboard warrior and spend more time at the gym than buying fair trade tea bags and hugging Muslims if you can't see for yourself that they don't live by out laws ur well and truly fecked! Fact dig around a bit you will soon find plenty of examples. So I was nearly right this thread did not turn into Look what the Jews are doing to Palestine it's turned into look what the whites are doing!


----------



## skipper1987 (May 1, 2013)

mcfly666 said:


> Might have already been said, and I'm not normally like this..
> 
> Anyway best thing to do is escalation of war, this should have started at 9/11 or even earlier. Basically they use a nail bomb, hurt a hostage, hijack or look at us the wrong way. We drop a nuke. we catch them plotting a terrorist plot, we find out where they live/training ground is and just drop a nuke 'Ad infinitum'
> 
> ...


Totally agree well said.


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## GCMAX (Dec 31, 2013)

Normsky said:


> We have free speech in this country. Neo Nazi's are allowed to march.


Nazi salutes, swastikas and holocaust denial are illegal in the UK so who are you referring to when you say Neo Nazi's are allowed to march?

Muslim extremists are allowed to do this;



Q: How many of them got jailed for that I wonder? A: None.

Here's your 'free speech': http://mikesivier.wordpress.com/2014/01/29/the-end-of-free-speech-and-free-protest-in-the-uk/

Ever wonder why protestors get arrested when they argue against government policy? see above for the gagging law.

This country has the heaviest surveillance in the world and is becoming less free through totalitarian style government legislation. People like you are either brainwashed peons or purposely deceiving others.


----------



## Normsky (Aug 29, 2014)

GCMAX said:


> Nazi salutes, swastikas and holocaust denial are illegal in the UK so who are you referring to when you say Neo Nazi's are allowed to march?
> 
> Muslim extremists are allowed to do this;
> 
> ...


No they are not, they are illegal in Germany, there is no law or act against brandishing swastika's or Nazi imagery in the united kingdom. You really do no fact checking at all do you. This is far too easy.

Wait! Are you this guy?


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## sniper16 (Oct 1, 2014)

hes rite


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## MrTwisted (Sep 14, 2014)

What muslamic laws have been implemented in this country btw? Can't seem to find them any where?


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## Chrisallan (Jul 11, 2014)

What I don't understand about the hard line Muslims,(not moderate Muslims)who choose to live in western countries,is,if they hate our way of life and the fact that western countries,wether you are religious or not,are predominantly christian,why are they here?

If they come here,from a Muslim country to have a better way of life,but want to turn it into the country they left,what is the ****ing point of them coming here?

Is it the benefits,the freedom of speech,the western lifestyle?

All the things they they say they hate.

To me,it's like they want to have their cake and eat it.

If they get their way and eventually turn Britain into a hard line,sharia law country,would they stay?

I ****ing doubt it!


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## saxondale (Nov 11, 2012)

Chrisallan said:


> What I don't understand about the hard line Muslims,(not moderate Muslims)who choose to live in western countries,is,if they hate our way of life and the fact that western countries,wether you are religious or not,are predominantly christian,why are they here?
> 
> If they come here,from a Muslim country to have a better way of life,but want to turn it into the country they left,what is the ****ing point of them coming here?
> 
> ...


you don`t fight every war with bullets mate


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## GCMAX (Dec 31, 2013)

Normsky said:


> No they are not, they are illegal in Germany, there is no law or act against brandishing swastika's or Nazi imagery in the united kingdom. You really do no fact checking at all do you. This is far too easy.
> 
> Wait! Are you this guy?


You are so full of bull, here's to debunking you (again):

http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/p_to_r/public_order_offences/#Section_5

Displaying Swastikas and doing Nazi salutes in public would constitute a Section 5 Public Order Offence which prohibits a visible representation which is threatening, abusive or insulting within sight of a person likely to cause harassment, alarm or distress. Do your research next time.

I'm off out for a meal now with my family, so I will leave you to your life dedicated to not working out, off topic discussions on UKMuscle and spending my tax money.


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## Normsky (Aug 29, 2014)

A section 5 covers anything the police deem inciting or intimidating you really don't understand the law do you. You can be arrested under section 5 for swearing in public, it is all about the context. Please educate yourself, there is no law against neo nazi imagery or salutes in the UK or GB.

You can be arrested under section for for merely standing in a manner deemed inappropriate, are you telling me there is legislation against standing in public?

It is like watching a child try and prove to you that there is indeed a monster under their bed. No matter how amny times you explain to them rationally that there is nothing there, they just keep insisting. Hopefully both examples are things that are grown out of, with time.


----------



## sniper16 (Oct 1, 2014)

GCMAX said:


> You are so full of bull, here's to debunking you (again):
> 
> http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/p_to_r/public_order_offences/#Section_5
> 
> ...


where you going Chinese or indian


----------



## GCMAX (Dec 31, 2013)

sniper16 said:


> where you going Chinese or indian


Thai!

This is the place: http://www.sukhothai.co.uk/


----------



## Mclovin147 (Nov 11, 2013)

Chrisallan said:


> What I don't understand about the hard line Muslims,(not moderate Muslims)who choose to live in western countries,is,if they hate our way of life and the fact that western countries,wether you are religious or not,are predominantly christian,why are they here?
> 
> If they come here,from a Muslim country to have a better way of life,but want to turn it into the country they left,what is the ****ing point of them coming here?
> 
> ...


Good question.

Put simply, why wouldn't they? Why wouldn't they move to Britain and continue the way of life they are used to (In regards to Religeon)? Britain in almost every aspect is better than less well developed Middle Eastern countries. We have better educations, better health care, dental care, access to food and water on demand, a social & economic system that leaves no man behind (to a degree), but primarily Britain isn't currently being bombed daily, nor do we have foreign soldiers invading our towns and cities killing our soldiers or rebelling British forces, ultimately destroying families. So why wouldn't they come here?

But my main point is all the above is what drives groups like ISIS. Conflicts in the east is what created ISIS, they were bred by the U.S. to help unsettle certain regimes, trained and funded, but it has back-fired, this is why military action is a bad idea in my opion, because it is the very thing that caused this...Fight fire with fire and that fire will only grow.


----------



## Frasier Crane (Oct 7, 2014)

Normsky said:


> Also, jesus advocating killing children who swear at their parents in the new testament:
> 
> 20:9 For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him.
> 
> ...


You quoted Leviticus 20:9 that would be Old Testament,

Again you are incorrect, nowhere does Jesus tell anyone to kill children.

There is no cherry picking, you just lack the knowledge and understanding of the Bible, which seems to cause you great problems when trying to debate.

I will again state that Jesus came to fulfil the law, which is where I think you're struggling to understand.

Your argumentation is nothing more than emotional outburst due to lack of knowledge.


----------



## saxondale (Nov 11, 2012)

Frasier Crane said:


> You quoted Leviticus 20:9 that would be Old Testament,
> 
> Again you are incorrect, nowhere does Jesus tell anyone to kill children.
> 
> ...


well said


----------



## Normsky (Aug 29, 2014)

Frasier Crane said:


> You quoted Leviticus 20:9 that would be Old Testament,
> 
> Again you are incorrect, nowhere does Jesus tell anyone to kill children.
> 
> ...


Wrong again:

Christians often claim that they're not obligated to follow the Old Testament. Because they are confused and their Bible is a notorious book in corruptions, man's alterations and lies, they are left with nothing but confusion and a religion of guessing.

Let us look at what Jesus said in the New Testament:

Matthew 15:1-9

1 Then some Pharisees and teachers of the law came to Jesus from Jerusalem and asked,

2 "Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? They don't wash their hands before they eat!"

3 Jesus replied, "And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition?

4 For God said, 'Honor your father and mother' and 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.'

5 But you say that if a man says to his father or mother, 'Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is a gift devoted to God,'

6he is not to 'honor his father' with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition.

7You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you:

8 " 'These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me.

9 They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.'"

There are few points to notice here:

1- Notice in verse 3, Jesus rebuked the Pharisees for breaking the Commands of GOD Almighty.

2- In verse4, he used the cursing of parents' punishment as an example.

3- In verses 7,8 and 9, he used a quote from the book of Isaiah in the Old Testament, to further prove that they are not following the Commands of GOD Almighty.

4- Jesus clearly had a problem with them not following the punishment of death for cursing the parents. In fact, Jesus himself said:

"Do not think that I [Jesus] have come to abolish the Law (the Old Testament) or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke or a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law (the Old Testament) until everything is accomplished. (Matthew 5:17-18)"


----------



## Frasier Crane (Oct 7, 2014)

Normsky said:


> Wrong again:
> 
> Christians often claim that they're not obligated to follow the Old Testament. Because they are confused and their Bible is a notorious book in corruptions, man's alterations and lies, they are left with nothing but confusion and a religion of guessing.
> 
> ...


The book of Matthew in the New Testament, do you understand who it was written for?

If you did you wouldn't insist on being this stupid.


----------



## Chrisallan (Jul 11, 2014)

saxondale said:


> you don`t fight every war with bullets mate


Very true.


----------



## Normsky (Aug 29, 2014)

Frasier Crane said:


> The book of Matthew in the New Testament, do you understand who it was written for?
> 
> If you did you wouldn't insist on being this stupid.


So quotes calling for gays to be killed were not valid because they were from the old testament and Christ himself calling for children to be murdered are not valid because they are from the new testament. Can you be this irritatingly disingenuous?

You are just trying to win its not even about being right for you anymore, because you can't get around the fact both old and new testament call for violence from Christians and to accept that fact is to accept christian doctrine is just as violent as Islamic and jewish doctrine.


----------



## Frasier Crane (Oct 7, 2014)

Normsky said:


> So quotes calling for gays to be killed were not valid because they were from the old testament and Christ himself calling for children to be murdered are not valid because they are from the new testament. Can you be this irritatingly disingenuous?
> 
> You are just trying to win its not even about being right for you anymore, because you can't get around the fact both old and new testament call for violence from Christians and to accept that fact is to accept christian doctrine is just as violent as Islamic and jewish doctrine.


If you could answer my question that would be great!

If you answer it I will explain it to you.

I'm not trying to win, wouldn't be much of a win arguing with you to be fair.

Try reading the entire chapter you quoted from in Matthew rather than "Cherry Picking" out of context


----------



## saxondale (Nov 11, 2012)

Normsky said:


> Wrong again:
> 
> Christians often claim that they're not obligated to follow the Old Testament. Because they are confused and their Bible is a notorious book in corruptions, man's alterations and lies, they are left with nothing but confusion and a religion of guessing.
> 
> ...


will you stop telling me what I believe fella, starting to grind now


----------



## Normsky (Aug 29, 2014)

saxondale said:


> will you stop telling me what I believe fella, starting to grind now


I am quoting scripture, and no one has spoken to you. The person I was speaking to was quoting Islamic scripture to say look at what they believe, I am quoting Christian scripture to show what Christianity promotes in its holy texts.

Or is it only Islam that can be criticized?


----------



## Frasier Crane (Oct 7, 2014)

Normsky said:


> I am quoting scripture, and no one has spoken to you. The person I was speaking to was quoting Islamic scripture to say look at what they believe, I am quoting Christian scripture to show what Christianity promotes in its holy texts.
> 
> Or is it only Islam that can be criticized?


I'm sure that's how it looks from your perspective but you're failing miserably.

Maybe you should try a new approach


----------



## saxondale (Nov 11, 2012)

Normsky said:


> I am quoting scripture, and no one has spoken to you. The person I was speaking to was quoting Islamic scripture to say look at what they believe, I am quoting Christian scripture to show what Christianity promotes in its holy texts.
> 
> Or is it only Islam that can be criticized?


you dont get to pick and choose who reads your drivel, quoting things out of context to suit your argument mate, your not actually critiquing anything just banging on and on.


----------



## Normsky (Aug 29, 2014)

saxondale said:


> you dont get to pick and choose who reads your drivel, quoting things out of context to suit your argument mate, your not actually critiquing anything just banging on and on.


 How is it out of context? You are coming across as unstable so I am not going to engage with you.


----------



## sniper16 (Oct 1, 2014)

Normsky said:


> I am quoting scripture, and no one has spoken to you. The person I was speaking to was quoting Islamic scripture to say look at what they believe, I am quoting Christian scripture to show what Christianity promotes in its holy texts.
> 
> Or is it only Islam that can be criticized?


Who really gives a flying fvck who said what in what book,ISIS do what they do because they are animals nothing to do with religion or the west its because they can and they think nobody can stop them.


----------



## Normsky (Aug 29, 2014)

sniper16 said:


> Who really gives a flying fvck who said what in what book,ISIS do what they do because they are animals nothing to do with religion or the west its because they can and they think nobody can stop them.


Of course it has to do with both of those things, no one blows themselves up and dies for nothing. No one commits genocide against muslims without doing so for political or religious or racial ideology.

Did they also do 9/11 becaue they hate our freedermm?


----------



## Frasier Crane (Oct 7, 2014)

In all seriousness, I think this site is great, cant believe I only found it a few days ago. fftopic:


----------



## saxondale (Nov 11, 2012)

Normsky said:


> How is it out of context? You are coming across as unstable so I am not going to engage with you.


have I insulted you? no, but you feel that`s a measured response, says everything about why you post fella.


----------



## sniper16 (Oct 1, 2014)

Normsky said:


> Of course it has to do with both of those things, no one blows themselves up and dies for nothing. No one commits genocide against muslims without doing so for political or religious or racial ideology.
> 
> Did they also do 9/11 becaue they hate our freedermm?


so what religious reason do they have to rape and behead kids and hang them for everyone to see.


----------



## saxondale (Nov 11, 2012)

oh dear god, I`m getting PM`s from the pratt now, say it on here or STFU @Normski


----------



## Normsky (Aug 29, 2014)

Killing non-believers, which a literal translation of the old testament commands. A literal interpretation of the Koran. Pretty basic religious reasons.


----------



## saxondale (Nov 11, 2012)

Normsky said:


> Killing non-believers, which a literal translation of the old testament commands. A literal interpretation of the Koran. Pretty basic religious reasons.


do you not understand, one is an ancient document that has been altered, translated and accepted as flawed following a period of enlightenment - the other is a "how to" manual that`s been followed to the letter today?

difference too subtle for you?


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## sniper16 (Oct 1, 2014)

Normsky said:


> Killing non-believers, which a literal translation of the old testament commands. A literal interpretation of the Koran. Pretty basic religious reasons.


im pretty sure no religion says rape children and behead them.


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## sniper16 (Oct 1, 2014)

is he on google looking for answer


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## Normsky (Aug 29, 2014)

sniper16 said:


> im pretty sure no religion says rape children and behead them.


Bukhari (59:643) - "Testify that none has the right to be worshipped except Allah, or else I will chop off your neck!" Words of a military leader that Muhammad sent on an expedition with the mission of destroying a local religion in Yemen.

A simple google search pulls up insane amounts of quotes from all religious texts that advocate genocidal actions.


----------



## Normsky (Aug 29, 2014)

sniper16 said:


> is he on google looking for answer


Why would that matter, not being a god fearing muslim who reads the Koran and Hadith daily, naturally I have not memorized specific quotes about killing unbelievers. Guess that makes my point illegitimate.


----------



## sniper16 (Oct 1, 2014)

Normsky said:


> Bukhari (59:643) - "Testify that none has the right to be worshipped except Allah, or else I will chop off your neck!" Words of a military leader that Muhammad sent on an expedition with the mission of destroying a local religion in Yemen.
> 
> A simple google search pulls up insane amounts of quotes from all religious texts that advocate genocidal actions.


But show me where it says rape and behead children.you cant,And I bet you believe in ufos.


----------



## Frasier Crane (Oct 7, 2014)

Normsky said:


> Killing non-believers, which a literal translation of the old testament commands. A literal interpretation of the Koran. Pretty basic religious reasons.


Correct my good sir, it certainly is quite literal, but also an historical account of Israel and all that they done, and where commanded to do under Gods Old Covenant Law.

So reading in that context you cant honestly think that that these were instructions or commands for Christians, after Jesus fulfilled the law as I previously explained to you


----------



## Normsky (Aug 29, 2014)

sniper16 said:


> But show me where it says rape and behead children.you cant,And I bet you believe in ufos.


So above we have gods permission to behead nonbelievers.

Then we go to this one condoning rape of non muslims and slaves:

And, forbidden to you are, wedded women, those with spouses, that you should marry them before they have left their spouses, be they Muslim free women or not; save what your right hands own, of captured [slave] girls, whom you may have sexual intercourse with, even if they should have spouses among the enemy camp, but only after they have been absolved of the possibility of pregnancy [after the completion of one menstrual cycle]; this is what God has prescribed for you.

Qur'an 4:24

So both rape and beheading is allowed as a suitable punishment for non believers. So why would raping and beheading or hanging a child be against those commandments?


----------



## Normsky (Aug 29, 2014)

Frasier Crane said:


> Correct my good sir, it certainly is quite literal, but also an historical account of Israel and all that they done, and where commanded to do under Gods Old Covenant Law.
> 
> So reading in that context you cant honestly think that that these were instructions or commands for Christians, after Jesus fulfilled the law as I previously explained to you


 That is your personal interpretation to justify something. That is not how it was intended to be understood. Just like these nutjobs try and use the bible to claim god engineered evolution by framing false context and fitting the passages into that false narrative.

As christian societies became more enlightened people have tried to sanitize the bible and cherrypick, just as islamic nations that are industrialized are starting to do. The interpretation you uphold was not entertained until recently, no serious scholars view jesus as having fulfilled that law by dying on the cross, this is something the christians who came after decided to be true as their moral compass changed.

But even if all that was wrong, which clearly is not the case nor has it historically been seen that way, then god still advocated genocide and killing gays and non believers, then changed his mind and conspicuously morally evolved at the exact same time epoch to epoch as we did, how funnily coincidental, almost as if as mens knowledge grew the holy texts they wrote mellowed. Shocking.


----------



## Normsky (Aug 29, 2014)

Frasier Crane said:


> The book of Matthew in the New Testament, do you understand who it was written for?
> 
> If you did you wouldn't insist on being this stupid.


You tell me?

The New Testament is the second major part of the Christian biblical canon, the first part being the Old Testament, based on the Hebrew Bible. Although Christians hold different views from Jews about the Hebrew scriptures, Christians regard both the Old and New Testaments together as sacred scripture. The contents of the New Testament deal explicitly with first-century Christianity. Therefore, the New Testament (in whole or in part) has frequently accompanied the spread of Christianity around the world. It reflects and serves as a source for Christian theology and morality. Both extended readings and phrases directly from the New Testament are also incorporated (along with readings from the Old Testament) into the various Christian liturgies. The New Testament has influenced religious, philosophical, and political movements in Christendom, and left an indelible mark on its literature, art, and music.


----------



## Frasier Crane (Oct 7, 2014)

Normsky said:


> That is your personal interpretation to justify something. That is not how it was intended to be understood. Just like these nutjobs try and use the bible to claim god engineered evolution by framing false context and fitting the passages into that false narrative.
> 
> As christian societies became more enlightened people have tried to sanitize the bible and cherrypick, just as islamic nations that are industrialized are starting to do. The interpretation you uphold was not entertained until recently, no serious scholars view jesus as having fulfilled that law.
> 
> But even if all that was wrong, which clearly is not the case nor has it historically been seen that way, then god still advocated genocide and killing gays and non believers, then changed his mind and conspicuously morally evolved at the exact same time epoch to epoch as we did, how funnily coincidental, almost as if as mens knowledge grew the holy texts they wrote mellowed. Shocking.


Wrong again, I previously stated the Bible is not open for personal interpretation,

Which Christian societies would these be ?

Incorrect again, plenty of scholars believe that Jesus fulfilled the law or we would not have books in the New Testament written by Jews claiming so.

Yes everything you said is wrong ,which is most certainly the case,

How is it not historically seen that way?

Last paragraph has been addressed multiple times, and multiple times you either ignore or simply cannot grasp


----------



## Frasier Crane (Oct 7, 2014)

Normsky said:


> You tell me?
> 
> The New Testament is the second major part of the Christian biblical canon, the first part being the Old Testament, based on the Hebrew Bible. Although Christians hold different views from Jews about the Hebrew scriptures, Christians regard both the Old and New Testaments together as sacred scripture. The contents of the New Testament deal explicitly with first-century Christianity. Therefore, the New Testament (in whole or in part) has frequently accompanied the spread of Christianity around the world. It reflects and serves as a source for Christian theology and morality. Both extended readings and phrases directly from the New Testament are also incorporated (along with readings from the Old Testament) into the various Christian liturgies. The New Testament has influenced religious, philosophical, and political movements in Christendom, and left an indelible mark on its literature, art, and music.


Jews


----------



## Normsky (Aug 29, 2014)

OK, sure it is, Christianity has no violence in it nor does it advocate violence. You win.


----------



## saxondale (Nov 11, 2012)

Normsky said:


> OK, sure it is, Christianity has no violence in it nor does it advocate violence. You win.


see, didnt take you so long to see the light.


----------



## skipper1987 (May 1, 2013)

Normsky said:


> A section 5 covers anything the police deem inciting or intimidating you really don't understand the law do you. You can be arrested under section 5 for swearing in public, it is all about the context. Please educate yourself, there is no law against neo nazi imagery or salutes in the UK or GB.
> 
> You can be arrested under section for for merely standing in a manner deemed inappropriate, are you telling me there is legislation against standing in public?
> 
> It is like watching a child try and prove to you that there is indeed a monster under their bed. No matter how amny times you explain to them rationally that there is nothing there, they just keep insisting. Hopefully both examples are things that are grown out of, with time.


They is plenty of monsters under our beds the Muslim extremists who apparently are a minority but we that's bull!!


----------



## skipper1987 (May 1, 2013)

Mclovin147 said:


> Good question.
> 
> Put simply, why wouldn't they? Why wouldn't they move to Britain and continue the way of life they are used to (In regards to Religeon)? Britain in almost every aspect is better than less well developed Middle Eastern countries. We have better educations, better health care, dental care, access to food and water on demand, a social & economic system that leaves no man behind (to a degree), but primarily Britain isn't currently being bombed daily, nor do we have foreign soldiers invading our towns and cities killing our soldiers or rebelling British forces, ultimately destroying families. So why wouldn't they come here?
> 
> But my main point is all the above is what drives groups like ISIS. Conflicts in the east is what created ISIS, they were bred by the U.S. to help unsettle certain regimes, trained and funded, but it has back-fired, this is why military action is a bad idea in my opion, because it is the very thing that caused this...Fight fire with fire and that fire will only grow.


All built on western values that's these people hate so much so why would they want it?


----------



## skipper1987 (May 1, 2013)

sniper16 said:


> so what religious reason do they have to rape and behead kids and hang them for everyone to see.


All this fella keeps saying is look what the west did look what the bible sayd basically saying Isis is the wests fault!!


----------



## MrTwisted (Sep 14, 2014)

He's partly saying the wast created isis (which they did) but also saying the religion has very little to do with these extremists. If Christianity can evolve in industrialised countrys to ignore the barbarity preached In it religious text then so can islam ( and it is most muslims in western countries do not support isis)


----------



## skipper1987 (May 1, 2013)

MrTwisted said:


> He's partly saying the wast created isis (which they did) but also saying the religion has very little to do with these extremists. If Christianity can evolve in industrialised countrys to ignore the barbarity preached In it religious text then so can islam ( and it is most muslims in western countries do not support isis)


We DID NOT CREATE ISIS!!! We did not tell them chop peoples heads off!! Are u for real? They do what they what they do because they are retarded religious extremists!! I will say again 99.9%? Of Muslims are closet extremists!! How many people in the comfort of there homes are racist?? But are not open about it in public?


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## saxondale (Nov 11, 2012)

MrTwisted said:


> He's partly saying the wast created isis (which they did) but also saying the religion has very little to do with these extremists. If Christianity can evolve in industrialised countrys to ignore the barbarity preached In it religious text then so can islam ( and it is most muslims in western countries do not support isis)


oh well said - there really is no come back from the muslim apologists to that one, unless they admit the muslim faith is one of aggression and dominance.


----------



## MrTwisted (Sep 14, 2014)

We trained them. We armed them. We gave them motivation. But of course it's all about the religion.

Saying most people are secrelty racist is retarded. Maybe 30 years ago, not 2014. If it was true ukip, bnp would have much larger support than they currently do. Most people do not hate people for there race.

Do you know many muslims? Do you have any friends who are not white english for that matter? You speak from a position of ignorance with arrogance and expect people to believe you.

What ISIS do is wrong. Fact.

ISIS need to be stopped. Fact.

How they have come about is actually irrelevant but genocide is NEVER the right solution.

1.6billion muslims in the world and you want to destroy them all because 100,000 belong to ISIS (quick google pulls up these numbers)


----------



## saxondale (Nov 11, 2012)

@Normski

I`ll go to church tomorrow and a guy (or girl) stands at the front and say "you have to suffer for your sins" we`ve been naughty in the past, go be nice to people in repentance" or some variation of it (be nice to children, look after your neighbour, share your bread and wine with the poor in your community, turn the other cheek and forgive your oppressors - all the things basically the story of Christ - that kind of thing)

you`ll go to your mosque and hear what?

some hate preacher telling stupid adolescents (we both have them) to go kill the infidels? can you, rationally point me to the parts of your religion that promote love, peace and friendship.


----------



## Mclovin147 (Nov 11, 2013)

Some statistics say that around 15%-25% of the 1.6 billion Muslims around the world are thought to be radical.

Another figure that is popping up just as common, is a mere 7% are radical.

People are going to lean towards their biased opinions obviously, ie Saxondale fully believes 25% of Muslims are radical extremists. (Not disputing it, it's your opinion mate)

While I belive the 25% was broadcast by some dumbass Yank on Fox/CNN news to help sway the votes and gain the publics justification in all these illegal wars going on, but that's just me.

Eitherway, at worst case scenario, 75% of Muslims are peacefull happy people like you and I, according to official figures...People who naturally wouldn't think about wanting to hurt random people, or spread hate about certain ethnic/religious groups of people.

So I highly doubt most mosques around Britain are secretly plotting our demise, as suggested.

And the 99.9% of Musilims are extremists from Skipper is wrong. A lot.


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## Frasier Crane (Oct 7, 2014)

MrTwisted said:


> He's partly saying the wast created isis (which they did) but also saying the religion has very little to do with these extremists. If Christianity can evolve in industrialised countrys to ignore the barbarity preached In it religious text then so can islam ( and it is most muslims in western countries do not support isis)


No the West did not create Isis, as much as some people would love to think. I do believe we funded and armed them to some extent.

Explain to me how you perceive Christianity evolving?


----------



## MrTwisted (Sep 14, 2014)

Frasier Crane said:


> No the West did not create Isis, as much as some people would love to think. I do believe we funded and armed them to some extent.
> 
> Explain to me how you perceive Christianity evolving?


In the beginning christians burnt witches, had crusades and did aggressive missionary work. Now they preach peace and love. Fairly simple evolution.

Maybe evolution is a difficult concept for devout christians but it's easy enough to understand.

When I say we created them I don't mean the west got 100k nutters together and gave them a plan. We made them what they are accidently (for the most part). You keep any people down trodden long enough and they will upraise using extreme violence.


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## sniper16 (Oct 1, 2014)

The west created isis god created man.

both are wrong.


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## Frasier Crane (Oct 7, 2014)

MrTwisted said:


> In the beginning christians burnt witches, had crusades and did aggressive missionary work. Now they preach peace and love. Fairly simple evolution.
> 
> Maybe evolution is a difficult concept for devout christians but it's easy enough to understand.
> 
> When I say we created them I don't mean the west got 100k nutters together and gave them a plan. We made them what they are accidently (for the most part). You keep any people down trodden long enough and they will upraise using extreme violence.


Don't confuse the Roman Catholic Church with Christianity, the true Church is build on the Bible alone which the Catholic church most definitely isn't.

Evolution is quite simple to grasp, but you have failed to show it.

How exactly did we "make them what they are " ?


----------



## sniper16 (Oct 1, 2014)

if the west created ISIS then they should worship their creators,,just sayin.


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## MrTwisted (Sep 14, 2014)

I'm not getting into the catholic/protestant debate.

Catholics came first - not everyone agreed with there way so groups split of and the other Christian churches where formed. Evolution of christian faith

If we hadn't trained them and gave them weapona would they be the threat they are today? No. It's hard to take countrys when your poorly educated with no weapons.


----------



## Frasier Crane (Oct 7, 2014)

MrTwisted said:


> I'm not getting into the catholic/protestant debate.
> 
> Catholics came first - not everyone agreed with there way so groups split of and the other Christian churches where formed. Evolution of christian faith
> 
> If we hadn't trained them and gave them weapona would they be the threat they are today? No. It's hard to take countrys when your poorly educated with no weapons.


Agreed, it is a very large subject, However I disagree the Catholic church did not come first, hence no " Evolution" We can address this if you like.

No, they would not be the threat they're today without Western interference, education didn't seem to help the Soviets plans regarding the Taliban.

The education card is played way to much!


----------



## MrTwisted (Sep 14, 2014)

I meant education as in training from the cia etc.

But we ARE agreed that without western interference they wouldn't be the threat they are today.


----------



## Normsky (Aug 29, 2014)

sniper16 said:


> if the west created ISIS then they should worship their creators,,just sayin.


They never created them, they funded, trained and equipped them. ISL took the money just like the Mujahedin and later the Taliban took our money, mujaheddin fighters were called the moral equivalent of our founding fathers by Ronald Reagan and Maggie Thatcher championed their cause as well as pouring in hundreds of millions of pounds to support people who were capturing Russian volunteer teacher who were giving Afghan women an education and were raping and beheading them.

Margaret Thatcher believed it was in the wests best interests to support Islamism in the region to prevent nations in the middle east from overthrowing dictators and acting in their own national interests:

"I do not believe that we should judge Islam by events in Iran&#8230;There is a tide of self-confidence and self-awareness in the Muslim world which preceded the Iranian revolution, and will outlast its present excesses. The West should recognize this with respect, not hostility. The Middle East is an area where we all have much at stake. It is in our own interests, as well as in the interests of the people of that region, that they build on their own deep religious traditions&#8230;"

Without stinger missiles, billions worth of weaponry and ammunition, hundreds of thousands of tonnes of plastic explosives and the training of their commanders by U.S and UK special forces the Mujaheddin would of never gained any momentum at all, they had very very little support at first, infact most opposition to the PDPA(Peoples Democratic Party of Afghanistan) and its soviet backers were liberal reformers and secular leftists, these groups were fighting for freedoms and rights to vote and to democracy but still upheld the rights of women to have sex, to wear makeup, to vote and to hold prominent government positions. These groups were marginalized by the west, received no support.

Then look at Iraq, which was a secular state with a dictator based on Arab Nationalism and Baathist ideology. Look at it after western intervention, in the grips of civil war, gone are women in makeup and women who hold university Degree's, now women are being oppressed like they have not been for a hundred years, stonings are common, Extremists pretty much rule the entire country now.

Next look at Syria, we funded, armed and trained Islamist opposition to the Assad dictatorship, the people we directly supported and publicly armed and gave moral support to were posting pictures and videos of themselves eating human liver and posing with beheaded secular fighters and police and Military personnel. We wound up giving ISL and other islamic groups who are now basically dominated by ISL billions, this gave ISL the ability and military firepower to be able to commit the ehtnic cleansing and war crimes they have been doing. They had no way of doing so without our help.

So after we know that our own regimes were not only complicit but that their funding and training was nescessary for ISL and other groups throughout history to be able to implement Islamic terror, why on earth would we entrust our government to fight them and why on earth would we pretend these movements were anything but fringe groups who were armed and funded by our governments for use as proxies in the global political arena?

It is a new age where the principles of the war of the flea are implemented. It is about major powers using small groups to fight other assests of other major powers for access to hegemony, for resources, for influence and logistical leverage.

Now are these groups themselves scum? Of course, but unless you actually admit and condemn the people who trianed and funded them, you are basically coming across as chauvinist because you are placing the blame on this tiny group of insane and disgusting Islamists without addressing your own countries complicity in the whole thing.


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## Faktalay (Mar 13, 2014)

Support Kurds against ISIS, demo against ISIS at 14.00 at parliament square today


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## saxondale (Nov 11, 2012)

Faktalay said:


> Support Kurds against ISIS, demo against ISIS at 14.00 at parliament square today


cheers, if I set of now I might get there for the last 10 minutes


----------



## Mclovin147 (Nov 11, 2013)

A demo against ISIS

Aren't we all ready bombing them daily? 

What more do these angry skin heads want?


----------



## saxondale (Nov 11, 2012)

Mclovin147 said:


> Some statistics say that around 15%-25% of the 1.6 billion Muslims around the world are thought to be radical.
> 
> Another figure that is popping up just as common, is a mere 7% are radical.
> 
> ...


not 25% - 75% mate - you`ll get a wake up call one day, do you ever speak to Muslims, meet them in your normal day to day life or god forbid, try and do business with them?


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## Normsky (Aug 29, 2014)

Mclovin147 said:


> A demo against ISIS
> 
> Aren't we all ready bombing them daily?
> 
> What more do these angry skin heads want?


I think these protests are being organized by muslim Kurds and turks etc to show that most muslims are opposed to ISL. It makes me laugh because the right always accuse the muslim majority of being silent to islamic terror, yet when they do protest they get called tree hugging che guevara loving assholes.

Saying that I agree, these protests are symbolic only, ISL are hardly strategically sunk from a few thousand people chanting nasty things at them


----------



## Mclovin147 (Nov 11, 2013)

saxondale said:


> not 25% - 75% mate - you`ll get a wake up call one day, do you ever speak to Muslims, meet them in your normal day to day life or god forbid, try and do business with them?


You could be right, no doubting it.

But no I haven't spoke to many, Muslims, so my knowledge is based around the statistics (Max 25% being radical)

And shamefully...Once...When I lived in London, I ran out of rizzlas on a "less than Christian high street" and had to buy 45p worth of rizzlas from a Muslims shop.

Although the transaction went smooth as a whistle, I some how now feel responsible for funding ISIS...


----------



## saxondale (Nov 11, 2012)

Mclovin147 said:


> You could be right, no doubting it.
> 
> But no I haven't spoke to many, Muslims, so my knowledge is based around the statistics (Max 25% being radical)
> 
> ...


you probably paid for a bullet you humanitarian bastrd. lolol

nah, the world will be muslim within 2 or 3 generations mate, the culture is one of domination not integration


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## Mclovin147 (Nov 11, 2013)

saxondale said:


> you probably paid for a bullet you humanitarian bastrd. lolol
> 
> nah, the world will be muslim within 2 or 3 generations mate, the culture is one of domination not integration


Ahah yeah, the same bullet that's gonna pop right through my window with my bloody luck!

And I dunno...I think there most definetly is a revolution coming, but I think it's going to be mostly economic, closing the gap between the Elite rich and extreme poverty...I think, given that Russel Brands politics channel 'The Trews' now has more publicity on YouTube than BBC news does, I think it's only a matter time before people stop voting and things start changing.

Iv only been interested politics and current affairs a few months due to my ignorant age, but Iv learnt more about the world in those few months than 10 years in the education system lol

I'm hoping there's enough people in Britain like you and I who aren't stupid enough to be dragged into a Religeon we don't support/agree with to let a 'takeover' happen anyway.


----------



## Frasier Crane (Oct 7, 2014)

saxondale said:


> you probably paid for a bullet you humanitarian bastrd. lolol
> 
> nah, the world will be muslim within 2 or 3 generations mate, the culture is one of domination not integration


This I believe is how it will play out, bred out!

Islam is a religion of domination no doubt

This modern day experiment of multiculturalism pushed by the European Union has failed.

British laws are weak, and they certainly know it.


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## Normsky (Aug 29, 2014)

Frasier Crane said:


> This I believe is how it will play out, bred out!
> 
> Islam is a religion of domination no doubt
> 
> ...


 This fantasy land you live in where the dominant powerful superpowers of the west who have the strongest coalition of military might ever witnessed in human history will be overcome from some Islamist takeover really does highlight why you were insisting on being so facetious about Christianity.


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## Frasier Crane (Oct 7, 2014)

Normsky said:


> This fantasy land you live in where the dominant powerful superpowers of the west who have the strongest coalition of military might ever witnessed in human history will be overcome from some Islamist takeover really does highlight why you were insisting on being so facetious about Christianity.


I am getting tired of you fast.

Explain to me how I was facetious about Christianity you absolute ass clown!


----------



## Frasier Crane (Oct 7, 2014)

"Britain is in denial. There is no real public debate on a historic event that is transforming the country. Mention of it occasionally surfaces in the media, but the mainstream political class never openly discuss it.

What is that historic event? By the year 2050, in a mere 37 years, Britain will be a majority Muslim nation.

This projection is based on reasonably good data. Between 2004 and 2008, the Muslim population of the UK grew at an annual rate of 6.7 percent, making Muslims 4 percent of the population in 2008. Extrapolating from those figures would mean that the Muslim population in 2020 would be 8 percent, 15 percent in 2030, 28 percent in 2040 and finally, in 2050, the Muslim population of the UK would exceed 50 percent of the total population.

Contrast those Muslim birth rates with the non-replacement birth rates of native Europeans, the so called deathbed demography of Europe. For a society to remain the same size, the average female has to have 2.1 children (total fertility rate). For some time now, all European countries, including Britain, have been well below that rate. The exception is Muslim Albania. For native Europeans, it seems, the consumer culture has replaced having children as life's main goal"


----------



## Normsky (Aug 29, 2014)

Frasier Crane said:


> "Britain is in denial. There is no real public debate on a historic event that is transforming the country. Mention of it occasionally surfaces in the media, but the mainstream political class never openly discuss it.
> 
> What is that historic event? By the year 2050, in a mere 37 years, Britain will be a majority Muslim nation.
> 
> ...


4.4% of British population and 5% of the English population. Many of whom are secular and muslims in ethno cultural labels only. There were a bunch of muslims at the jiujitsu school I used to go to, they were regular people who drank beer and had sex and never identified as religious, they are a part of that 4.4 - 5%

Your paranoia about muslims is the exact same rhetoric anti semites used in Germany that ended with genocide. Jews were accused of flocking into the country at unacceptable levels, they were accused of not being accountable to the Wehrmacht, they were accused of being radicals who supported Jewish conspiracies.

Britain is in no danger, we are a world power with one of the best military's in the world and a parliament which guarantees that the state has to remain secular.


----------



## BettySwallocks (Aug 1, 2012)

saw 2 Asians (turks I think, but who knows) get beaten the crap out of last night, one of them was being a d1ck but his mate was genuinely trying to diffuse the situation. Amazing how much racism was going on against them I've never seen anything like it, folk were literally just standing around jeering at them getting beaten, it's almost like all this ISIS business has flicked a switch in a few people.


----------



## Frasier Crane (Oct 7, 2014)

Normsky said:


> 4.4% of British population and 5% of the English population. Many of whom are secular and muslims in ethno cultural labels only. There were a bunch of muslims at the jiujitsu school I used to go to, they were regular people who drank beer and had sex and never identified as religious, they are a part of that 4.4 - 5%
> 
> Your paranoia about muslims is the exact same rhetoric anti semites used in Germany that ended with genocide. Jews were accused of flocking into the country at unacceptable levels, they were accused of not being accountable to the Wehrmacht, they were accused of being radicals who supported Jewish conspiracies.
> 
> Britain is in no danger, we are a world power with one of the best military's in the world and a parliament which guarantees that the state has to remain secular.


There's no paranoia on my part, this is a discussion!

Do you understand the definition of Muslim?

To idea of a secular Muslim by definition is an oxymoron.

What is an ethnic Muslim?


----------



## Normsky (Aug 29, 2014)

Frasier Crane said:


> There's no paranoia on my part, this is a discussion!
> 
> Do you understand the definition of Muslim?
> 
> ...


Most people who are identified or identify as muslims are not religious in this country, the same as most jews of european heritage in Israel are secular Ashkenazi jews. They don't believe in god or are agnostic, they however fall under the ethno-cultural umbrella of jew.


----------



## skipper1987 (May 1, 2013)

Mclovin147 said:


> Some statistics say that around 15%-25% of the 1.6 billion Muslims around the world are thought to be radical.
> 
> Another figure that is popping up just as common, is a mere 7% are radical.
> 
> ...


Proe I am wrong and as for your 75% prove it?? And your 75% will and never will be like me!! I don't force my children to cover there faces or deny them food over Ramadam, force them to marry fat old men do I nee to carry on with the list of retarded things these people do in the name of Allah?? I corn across these arrogant blank eyes religious fuxk wits everyday thy are a million miles away from been like us.


----------



## DeskSitter (Jan 28, 2013)

Mclovin147 said:


> Ahah yeah, the same bullet that's gonna pop right through my window with my bloody luck!
> 
> And I dunno...I think there most definetly is a revolution coming, but I think it's going to be mostly economic, closing the gap between the Elite rich and extreme poverty...I think, given that Russel Brands politics channel 'The Trews' now has more publicity on YouTube than BBC news does, I think it's only a matter time before people stop voting and things start changing.
> 
> ...


Absolutely true very well said!


----------



## skipper1987 (May 1, 2013)

BettySwallocks said:


> saw 2 Asians (turks I think, but who knows) get beaten the crap out of last night, one of them was being a d1ck but his mate was genuinely trying to diffuse the situation. Amazing how much racism was going on against them I've never seen anything like it, folk were literally just standing around jeering at them getting beaten, it's almost like all this ISIS business has flicked a switch in a few people.


Were did this happen?


----------



## Frasier Crane (Oct 7, 2014)

Normsky said:


> Most people who are identified or identify as muslims are not religious in this country, the same as most jews of european heritage in Israel are secular Ashkenazi jews. They don't believe in god or are agnostic, they however fall under the ethno-cultural umbrella of jew.


 Why do you think these people identify as being Muslim when you state they are not religious, which by definition makes them not a Muslim?

Being a Jew and an Israeli are two different things.


----------



## BettySwallocks (Aug 1, 2012)

skipper1987 said:


> Were did this happen?


Middle of wakey outtside tequilla took pigs like 10mins to show up.


----------



## Normsky (Aug 29, 2014)

Frasier Crane said:


> Why do you think these people identify as being Muslim when you state they are not religious, which by definition makes them not a Muslim?
> 
> Being a Jew and an Israeli are two different things.


 If you listen to my point though, those people who are atheist and agnostic class themselves as jews and are classed by others as jews, despite not being religious.

Just as those guys I knew from jiujitsu were counted in the muslim population of Britain. A very large percentage of jews killed in the holocaust were athiests.


----------



## skipper1987 (May 1, 2013)

BettySwallocks said:


> Middle of wakey outtside tequilla took pigs like 10mins to show up.


A lot of tension mounting!! Give it 10-20 years they will be civil type wars!!


----------



## Normsky (Aug 29, 2014)

skipper1987 said:


> A lot of tension mounting!! Give it 10-20 years they will be civil type wars!!


 I doubt that. The hostility against the Irish was far worse than that against muslims in 2014. There were shops with no irish sign and a very vitriolic hatred of them a few decades ago, they were accused of all being extremists or sympathizers. There were real and tangible atmospheres of hostility and distrust. Guess what happened. Nothing, because people grow out of ignorance 9 times out of 10.


----------



## skipper1987 (May 1, 2013)

Normsky said:


> I doubt that. The hostility against the Irish was far worse than that against muslims in 2014. There were shops with no irish sign and a very vitriolic hatred of them a few decades ago, they were accused of all being extremists or sympathizers. There were real and tangible atmospheres of hostility and distrust. Guess what happened. Nothing, because people grow out of ignorance 9 times out of 10.


Interesting.


----------



## saxondale (Nov 11, 2012)

Normsky said:


> I doubt that. The hostility against the Irish was far worse than that against muslims in 2014. There were shops with no irish sign and a very vitriolic hatred of them a few decades ago, they were accused of all being extremists or sympathizers. There were real and tangible atmospheres of hostility and distrust. Guess what happened. Nothing, because people grow out of ignorance 9 times out of 10.


the ONLY reason you dont see "no muslim" signs is because its against the law you muppet


----------



## saxondale (Nov 11, 2012)

Normsky said:


> 4.4% of British population and 5% of the English population. Many of whom are secular and muslims in ethno cultural labels only. There were a bunch of muslims at the jiujitsu school I used to go to, they were regular people who drank beer and had sex and never identified as religious, they are a part of that 4.4 - 5%
> 
> Your paranoia about muslims is the exact same rhetoric anti semites used in Germany that ended with genocide. Jews were accused of flocking into the country at unacceptable levels, they were accused of not being accountable to the Wehrmacht, they were accused of being radicals who supported Jewish conspiracies.
> 
> Britain is in no danger, we are a world power with one of the best military's in the world and a parliament which guarantees that the state has to remain secular.


talking bollox mate - on so many levels


----------



## MunchieBites (Jan 14, 2013)

GCMAX said:


> Hey this feminazi http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/members/munchiebites/ called me a racist and now I have negative rep... wtf
> 
> Now Normsky below has negative repped me for this post! These two are working together. What a pair of pathetic whiny liberal sell-outs. Makes me wonder why you would join a bodybuilding forum if all you ever do is chat about rubbish online that has nothing to do with bodybuilding and to think my tax is paying for your unemployment benefit. I want a refund.


You haven't half got some sand in your vagina treacle


----------



## saxondale (Nov 11, 2012)

BettySwallocks said:


> saw 2 Asians (turks I think, but who knows) get beaten the crap out of last night, one of them was being a d1ck but his mate was genuinely trying to diffuse the situation. Amazing how much racism was going on against them I've never seen anything like it, folk were literally just standing around jeering at them getting beaten, it's almost like all this ISIS business has flicked a switch in a few people.


was it just you think ISIS?


----------



## saxondale (Nov 11, 2012)

GCMAX said:


> Hey this feminazi http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/members/munchiebites/ called me a racist and now I have negative rep... wtf
> 
> Now Normsky below has negative repped me for this post! These two are working together. What a pair of pathetic whiny liberal sell-outs. Makes me wonder why you would join a bodybuilding forum if all you ever do is chat about rubbish online that has nothing to do with bodybuilding and to think my tax is paying for your unemployment benefit. I want a refund.


even better - when he joins UK armed forces we can pay for him to refuse to engage the enemy and hug them instead.


----------



## Mclovin147 (Nov 11, 2013)

DeskSitter said:


> Absolutely true very well said!


Thanks mate.

The only thing that is delaying it right now IMO is the current generation of working class people aged 35 and up who don't have/know how to use technology such as youtube to watch REAL news and REAL stories/statistics/figures from around the world. My father for example, average but hard working man, carpenter, still votes because he thinks it makes a difference...He's also useless with computers, as are the a large majority of people his age (46) and don't even know how to write an e-mail lol ..But average men and women like him only have access to things such as Newspapers and BBC news etc which as we know are often Misguided to say the least, or withhold information etc

My generation is not full of idiots as is common belief from elders lol (Well, when you reach my age (20) we get better anyway) its full of tech savvy people who can access this new outlet of the 'truth' and who are beginning to put real pressure on the current systems, demanding change and protesting...Give it 10-20 years when we have a larger percentage of vote/generation and I think things will change.



skipper1987 said:


> A lot of tension mounting!! Give it 10-20 years they will be civil type wars!!


Agreed, it could well lead to that if it continues the way it's going.

Immigration needs a look at I think. Likewise, scare mongering by media outlets aren't helping with the tension. Anything to attract viewers. Look at America right now. One person caught Ebola and they were interviewing people hundreds of miles away from this ill person who were almost crying and rushing to the stores for emergency supplies, removing their children from schools etc...The 6pm news is a powerful tool.


----------



## Chrisallan (Jul 11, 2014)

I think isis will be long gone before this thread reaches it's conclusion.


----------



## saxondale (Nov 11, 2012)

Mclovin147 said:


> Thanks mate.
> 
> The only thing that is delaying it right now IMO is the current generation of working class people aged 35 and up who don't have/know how to use technology such as youtube to watch REAL news and REAL stories/statistics/figures from around the world. My father for example, average but hard working man, carpenter, still votes because he thinks it makes a difference...He's also useless with computers, as are the majority of people his age (46) and don't even know how to write an e-mail lol ..But average men and women like him only have access to things such as Newspapers and BBC news etc which as we know are often Misguided to say the least, or withhold information etc
> 
> ...


coughs - ah those ancient Luddite over 35`s, your taking the pss mate, thanks for the insult, yours is the only your generation that knows anything - FFS.

youth have been saying that since the end of the 2nd century


----------



## Mclovin147 (Nov 11, 2013)

saxondale said:


> coughs - ah those ancient Luddite over 35`s, your taking the pss mate, thanks for the insult, yours is the only your generation that knows anything - FFS.
> 
> youth have been saying that since the end of the 2nd century


At no point was I/did I say anything about anyone being thick etc other than the common belief people my age are thick.

I said most people past the age of about 35 (40 might of have been a better bench mark) aren't really interested in technology and social media as rough general rule. Would you agree or not?

Far more people my age have access to these new outlets was my point before you spat your sob story 

Edit: 40 would have been a better bench mark because in the 2010 elections the majority of voters were indeed over 40.

Smallest age group of voters were aged 18-24. (Quick google search)


----------



## Normsky (Aug 29, 2014)

Muslims smashing ISL since back in June.


----------



## skipper1987 (May 1, 2013)

Mclovin147 said:


> At no point was I/did I say anything about anyone being thick etc other than the common belief people my age are thick.
> 
> I said most people past the age of about 35 (40 might of have been a better bench mark) aren't really interested in technology and social media as rough general rule. Would you agree or not?
> 
> Far more people my age have access to these new outlets was my point before you spat your sob story


Just because it's on the internet does not make it true agreed it's not gona be censored or regulated but that in it's self could be just as bad very easy to make something look like something totally differnt? Example Maybe Isis could wear official military uniforms from an opposition army and say commit certain crimes making said party look bad? You get the idea sorry it's not very detailed or good grammar currently getting ready for a night on the town!


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## saxondale (Nov 11, 2012)

Mclovin147 said:


> At no point was I/did I say anything about anyone being thick etc other than the common belief people my age are thick.
> 
> I said most people past the age of about 35 (*60 might of have been a better bench mark*) aren't really interested in technology and social media as rough general rule. Would you agree or not?
> 
> Far more people my age have access to these new outlets was my point before you spat your sob story


kids today, grumble, grumble

it was all CND and greenpeace when we were your age mate, what did the wrinklies know about ecology and green politics ay?


----------



## dann19900 (Dec 29, 2012)

Normsky said:


> I doubt that. The hostility against the Irish was far worse than that against muslims in 2014.


thats because now you go to prison for it


----------



## saxondale (Nov 11, 2012)

Normsky said:


> Muslims smashing ISL since back in June.


of course muslim will fight muslim - they all want the spoils for themselves?

can`t believe mate, after 15 plus pages of been made to look at best foolish and at worst a fool you still keep posting, this isnt mumsnet you know, its a body building forum, would be nice to see you post something in one of the other threads every now and then


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## Frasier Crane (Oct 7, 2014)

Chrisallan said:


> I think isis will be long gone before this thread reaches it's conclusion.


I think we're nearly their.

The media has helped legitimized Isis tremendously, Its almost like they all sat down with an ad agency and P.R team, gave them a funky sounding name, a nice modern 21st Century logo in cool black lol

And for what reason?

I seen a recent interview with some ranking military official ask the exact same thing.


----------



## Normsky (Aug 29, 2014)

Frasier Crane said:


> I think we're nearly their.
> 
> The media has helped legitimized Isis tremendously, Its almost like they all sat down with an ad agency and P.R team, gave them a funky sounding name, a nice modern 21st Century logo in cool black lol
> 
> ...


The flag simply says there is no god but Allah, it has been in use since the time of the prophet. The flag is interesting because to muslims, to damage the flag with Allah on it is seen as sacrilegious so muslim politicians have been all angry about muslims burning ISL flags at protests against ISL.

But yeah that flag has been around forever.


----------



## Frasier Crane (Oct 7, 2014)

Normsky said:


> The flag simply says there is no god but Allah, it has been in use since the time of the prophet. The flag is interesting because to muslims, to damage the flag with Allah on it is seen as sacrilegious so muslim politicians have been all angry about muslims burning ISL flags at protests against ISL.
> 
> But yeah that flag has been around forever.[/quoteI'
> 
> Not the flag, I'm talking about how the BBC, ITN, Sky present them to the public


----------



## BettySwallocks (Aug 1, 2012)

saxondale said:


> was it just you think ISIS?


what what what? I don't understand what your saying.


----------



## Delhi (Dec 8, 2005)

Mclovin147 said:


> At no point was I/did I say anything about anyone being thick etc other than the common belief people my age are thick.
> 
> I said most people past the age of about 35 (40 might of have been a better bench mark) aren't really interested in technology and social media as rough general rule. Would you agree or not?
> 
> ...


your ignorance and stupidly on yo this thread is nearly funny. 35-40 year olds were the very people who built the tech you are now using lol. Go look up the guys who created Facebook, YouTube, Google etc lol you are so ignorant. I am 37 and would bet I know more about tech in my little finger than you and all your mates combined (but then I get paid to talk about tech and the future).

your post has made me smile...and PS just so you know and this is REALLY important, because some radical posts up a video on YouTube talking about how the big bad world is against them don't mean they are right and should be believed. 99% of people are sheep and believe the crap they read like gospel. Conspiracy theorists, socialists, radicals and now even terrorists are being listened to by YOUR generation and because of the lack of experience and REAL social skills your generation are believing them...heaven HELP us when you all grow older lol


----------



## Mclovin147 (Nov 11, 2013)

Delhi said:


> your ignorance and stupidly on yo this thread is nearly funny. 35-40 year olds were the very people who built the tech you are now using lol. Go look up the guys who created Facebook, YouTube, Google etc lol you are so ignorant. I am 37 and would bet I know more about tech in my little finger than you and all your mates combined (but then I get paid to talk about tech and the future).
> 
> your post has made me smile...and PS just so you know and this is REALLY important, because some radical posts up a video on YouTube talking about how the big bad world is against them don't mean they are right and should be believed. 99% of people are sheep and believe the crap they read like gospel. Conspiracy theorists, socialists, radicals and now even terrorists are being listened to by YOUR generation and because of the lack of experience and REAL social skills your generation are believing them...heaven HELP us when you all grow older lol


My ignorance and stupidity?

Please point to my ignorance.

Please point to my stupidity.

--

You've obviously got your knickers in a twist over the fact that more people under the age of 40 use computers and social media than those over 40. That's your problem. Deal with it fella. (I'm assuming that's what the personal attacks were for?)

I'm glad your 37 years of age and good with technology, really, my heart melts for you mate. I have no doubt your better with technology than I am, especially as you have a career explaining/teaching others about it. So I really do hope you know more than me.

So just what point are you trying to make with what looks like a hastily written speech by someone píssed off, that isn't really going anywhere other than dishing out a bit of abuse?

The man who invented facebook was 20 years old. He is only 30 now, what's your point?


----------



## Normsky (Aug 29, 2014)

Delhi said:


> your ignorance and stupidly on yo this thread is nearly funny. 35-40 year olds were the very people who built the tech you are now using lol. Go look up the guys who created Facebook, YouTube, Google etc lol you are so ignorant. I am 37 and would bet I know more about tech in my little finger than you and all your mates combined (but then I get paid to talk about tech and the future).
> 
> your post has made me smile...and PS just so you know and this is REALLY important, because some radical posts up a video on YouTube talking about how the big bad world is against them don't mean they are right and should be believed. 99% of people are sheep and believe the crap they read like gospel. Conspiracy theorists, socialists, radicals and now even terrorists are being listened to by YOUR generation and because of the lack of experience and REAL social skills your generation are believing them...heaven HELP us when you all grow older lol


 Society is always evolving. Every new generation makes the old one seem stupid and backwards. When the next generation comes they will make my generation look silly and the deeply held convictions we hold will be knocked down as antiquated and backwards relics of a previous generation. Problem is when you get to a certain age you begin to develop the get off my lawn you damn kids attitude as I am sure i will do someday.


----------



## saxondale (Nov 11, 2012)

Normsky said:


> Society is always evolving. Every new generation thinks they makes the old one seem stupid and backwards. When the next generation comes they will think they make my generation look silly and the deeply held convictions we hold will be knocked down as antiquated and backwards relics of a previous generation. Problem is when you get to a certain age you begin to develop the get off my lawn you damn kids attitude as I am sure i will do someday.


corrected for you

the problem is, when you get to a certain age you realise you were actually wrong and the old cvnts knew what they were talking about all along. whats the saying? the older I got, the cleverer my parents became.


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## saxondale (Nov 11, 2012)

BettySwallocks said:


> what what what? I don't understand what your saying.


were they getting beaten because they were been dicks or because of some distant far away war?


----------



## Mclovin147 (Nov 11, 2013)

Normsky said:


> Society is always evolving. Every new generation makes the old one seem stupid and backwards. When the next generation comes they will make my generation look silly and the deeply held convictions we hold will be knocked down as antiquated and backwards relics of a previous generation. Problem is when you get to a certain age you begin to develop the get off my lawn you damn kids attitude as I am sure i will do someday.


Very true! And it's just been proven furthermore.

Not sure why people feel so hurt....I said NOTHING insulting about any generation. The fact I stated are being interpreted as 'Ignorant'.

My point (fact) being that younger people, specifically those under 40, will have better knowledge of computers and social media as a general rule...How is that ignorant/stupid?

Personally I think those throwing the insults around ignorant, but hey-ho!


----------



## saxondale (Nov 11, 2012)

inadvertently you made out anyone over 40 couldn`t know what was happening because they can`t use technology - youthful exuberance, my reply was part tongue in cheek mate. no offence taken


----------



## Mclovin147 (Nov 11, 2013)

saxondale said:


> inadvertently you made out anyone over 40 couldn`t know what was happening because they can`t use technology - youthful exuberance, my reply was part tongue in cheek mate. no offence taken


No I know yours wasn't serious mate.

I meant the random desperado that waded in above lol

The funniest part of it all?

Every single person he told me to research (Creator of Facebook, Youtube) so far have all been in their 20's when they invented/established these companies, and they aren't exactly old companies 

He took offence where there was none to be took, and decided to gob off. Tainted a good disscussion.


----------



## Frasier Crane (Oct 7, 2014)

Documentary about penguins on BBC 2 fftopic:


----------



## militant (Jul 12, 2014)

saxondale said:


> @Normski
> 
> I`ll go to church tomorrow and a guy (or girl) stands at the front and say "you have to suffer for your sins" we`ve been naughty in the past, go be nice to people in repentance" or some variation of it (be nice to children, look after your neighbour, share your bread and wine with the poor in your community, turn the other cheek and forgive your oppressors - all the things basically the story of Christ - that kind of thing)
> 
> ...


If I end up in that pro Isis mosque im straigjt outta of there and contact counter terrorism police lol iv been to many and havnt come across any, like iv explained before its not in mainstream mosques, more like secret terrorism circles because your average terrorist cnut of a muslim are paranoid of getting stiched up from orthadox muslims who want to practice the religion properly,

And yes I hate ISIS, should be wiped out, muslims who are against their regime and political agenda will get killed including me.


----------



## Delhi (Dec 8, 2005)

Mclovin147 said:


> No I know yours wasn't serious mate.
> 
> I meant the random desperado that waded in above lol
> 
> ...


Once again your IGNORANCE shines through. Right now the biggest uptake of new users on Facebook is from OVER 50s. That's right the most new accounts are created by people who in your words "can't even compose an email". Yes the guys who created YouTube etc may have been young when they built it but they are not 20 anymore kid.

Look at the facts not what your youthful inexperience is showing you. All the big tech companies are owned and run by people mostly in their 50s and 60s.

You think you can

Make a statement about people who are 35 and over with the insinuation that they don't get tech and therefor can't make a judgement of radicals like ISIS and us oldies have it all wrong about people like them.

Tell you what why not head over to Syria (I will pay) and tell them how much you believe in them and how bad our government is. My bet would be you lasted ten minutes before being captured and beheaded. At that point you would realise everything I and other oldies have tried to explain to you. The world is not a great place and despite your anger at our government and News agencies etc they are a MILLION miles better than the shower of terrorists who would love to cut your head off.

One day you will grow older and wiser and look back at what you are saying now and realise how stupid and ignorant you were.


----------



## Normsky (Aug 29, 2014)

Delhi said:


> Once again your IGNORANCE shines through. Right now the biggest uptake of new users on Facebook is from OVER 50s. That's right the most new accounts are created by people who in your words "can't even compose an email". Yes the guys who created YouTube etc may have been young when they built it but they are not 20 anymore kid.
> 
> Look at the facts not what your youthful inexperience is showing you. All the big tech companies are owned and run by people mostly in their 50s and 60s.
> 
> ...


 So the fact 50 year olds are years behind the times and are now finally getting on facebook shows that previous generations are just as if not more tech savvy?

Most people who own multi million dollar companies in all fields are older, due to the nature of the game, creating wealth is a process that rarely can be achieved while in the formative stages of your adult life. However most of the technological breakthroughs and advancements are done by young and brilliant minds, the people who do the innovating are not the people who own the company, for example steve jobs was the face of apple, how much of the software or tech did he develop? Not that much. What he was was a brilliant and ruthless businessman who maximized profits and conquered a market and had the best people developing his products.


----------



## saxondale (Nov 11, 2012)

militant said:


> If I end up in that pro Isis mosque im straigjt outta of there and contact counter terrorism police lol iv been to many and havnt come across any, like iv explained before its not in mainstream mosques, more like secret terrorism circles because your average terrorist cnut of a muslim are paranoid of getting stiched up from orthadox muslims who want to practice the religion properly,
> 
> And yes I hate ISIS, should be wiped out, muslims who are against their regime and political agenda will get killed including me.


I`m not talking about ISIS mate, you can kill each other over different flavours of Allah all you want,

hate preachers were spreading their bile way before ISIS became the latest boogey man, your comment about orthodox Muslims wanting to "practice the religion properly" is the kind of comment that rings the warning bells.


----------



## saxondale (Nov 11, 2012)

Frasier Crane said:


> Documentary about penguins on BBC 2 fftopic:


seen it, they`re bloody murderers, all of em


----------



## militant (Jul 12, 2014)

saxondale said:


> I`m not talking about ISIS mate, you can kill each other other different flavours of Allah all you want, hate preachers were spreading their bile way before ISIS became the latest boogey man, your comment about orthodox Muslims wanting to "practice the religion properly" is the kind of comment that rings the warning bells.


Warning bells? In what way? Ur just paranoid now since I am against these terrorist cnuts in the first place, cant see how people who are against those terrorists are a threat?


----------



## saxondale (Nov 11, 2012)

Delhi said:


> Tell you what why not head over to Syria (I will pay) and tell them how much you believe in them and how bad our government is. My bet would be you lasted ten minutes before being captured and beheaded. .


thats a waste of a plane ticket - send @DeskSitter instead


----------



## saxondale (Nov 11, 2012)

militant said:


> Warning bells? In what way? Ur just paranoid now since I am against these terrorist cnuts in the first place, cant see how people who are against those terrorists are a threat?


does your religion preach "peace and love and forgivness" or "your way is the only way"?

srs question.


----------



## militant (Jul 12, 2014)

saxondale said:


> does your religion preach "peace and love and forgivness" or "your way is the only way"?
> 
> srs question.


Im against killing of innocent people mate, hence class myself as an orthadox muslim. Iv not been bought up to believe in radical islam, yes it does exist likes of osama, abu hamza hook cleric and so on, they are just twisted fcuks who are misguided.


----------



## saxondale (Nov 11, 2012)

militant said:


> Im against killing of innocent people mate, hence class myself as an orthadox muslim. Iv not been bought up to believe in radical islam, yes it does exist likes of osama, abu hamza hook cleric and so on, they are just twisted fcuks who are misguided.


fair enough.


----------



## Delhi (Dec 8, 2005)

Just for the tough guys who think they know it all..

Because HIS dad can't compose an email, most people over 35 are stupid and not tech savvy. Well here are some stats to show clearly the IGNORANCE and STUPDITY of such statements.

55% Twitter users are over 35

63% of Pinterest users are over 35

65% of Facebook users are over 35

79% of LinkedIn users are over 35

200 million emails are sent every minute with around 75% of those sent by people over guess what...35

That's why he was stupid and ignorant. Opening his young mouth without the facts. And in the same fashion he would do well to listen to his elders when we WARN him that radicals posting up the "truth" on YouTube should not be believed.


----------



## Frasier Crane (Oct 7, 2014)

militant said:


> Im against killing of innocent people mate, hence class myself as an orthadox muslim. Iv not been bought up to believe in radical islam, yes it does exist likes of osama, abu hamza hook cleric and so on, they are just twisted fcuks who are misguided.


I'm glad that we're in agreement about the killing of innocents, You have to admit there is some extraordinary passages to be found in both the Koran

and also from the Hadith

Bukhari (52:177) - Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him."

What context is this to be take in?


----------



## EpicSquats (Mar 29, 2014)

Frasier Crane said:


> I'm glad that we're in agreement about the killing of innocents, You have to admit there is some extraordinary passages to be found in both the Koran
> 
> and also from the Hadith
> 
> ...


Light hearted banter?


----------



## saxondale (Nov 11, 2012)

Frasier Crane said:


> I'm glad that we're in agreement about the killing of innocents, You have to admit there is some extraordinary passages to be found in both the Koran
> 
> and also from the Hadith
> 
> ...


talking stones? LSD usually


----------



## Frasier Crane (Oct 7, 2014)

EpicSquats said:


> Light hearted banter?


nah mate, genuinely interested to understand his point of view on these kinds of passages


----------



## militant (Jul 12, 2014)

Frasier Crane said:


> I'm glad that we're in agreement about the killing of innocents, You have to admit there is some extraordinary passages to be found in both the Koran
> 
> and also from the Hadith
> 
> ...


Far as I know matey that verse relates to judgement day. You have to understand the facts that all 3 religions Judaism, Christianity & Islam all had history of wars with each other. But then you get good people who practice their faith, and are decent and humble people, also same goes for ppl who dont believe in religion. I dont go out fishing for bad points amongst other people, and their views. Im aware some hate muslims on this forum, they're entitled to their opinions, does'nt effect my life in the slightest lol


----------



## saxondale (Nov 11, 2012)

militant said:


> Far as I know matey that verse relates to judgement day. You have to understand the facts that all 3 religions Judaism, Christianity & Islam all had history of wars with each other. But then you get good people who practice their faith, and are decent and humble people, also same goes for ppl who dont believe in religion. I dont go out fishing for bad points amongst other people, and their views. Im aware some hate muslims on this forum, they're entitled to their opinions, does'nt effect my life in the slightest lol


subtle difference we have in common mate I dont hate Muslims but that doesnt mean I have to like Islam.


----------



## militant (Jul 12, 2014)

saxondale said:


> subtle difference we have in common mate I dont hate Muslims but that doesnt mean I have to like Islam.


True,


----------



## Normsky (Aug 29, 2014)

Frasier Crane said:


> I'm glad that we're in agreement about the killing of innocents, You have to admit there is some extraordinary passages to be found in both the Koran
> 
> and also from the Hadith
> 
> ...


The context that all religion is fiction, wrote in barbaric and harsh times, the works of fiction reflect the conditions the people at that time lived in. Again it is no coincidence god seems to have morally evolved at the exact same rate that our societies have. Can you show me any written text from those times that didn't have horrific stuff in them? No! because they are a reflection of the times.


----------



## Frasier Crane (Oct 7, 2014)

"This is what makes the Quran's verses of violence so dangerous. They are given the weight of divine command. While Muslim terrorists take them as literally as anything else in their holy book, and understand that Islam is incomplete without Jihad, moderates offer little to contradict them - outside of opinion. Indeed, what do they have? Speaking of peace and love may win over the ignorant, but when every twelfth verse of Islam's holiest book either speaks to Allah's hatred for non-Muslims or calls for their death, forced conversion, or subjugation, it's little wonder that sympathy for terrorism runs as deeply as it does in the broader community - even if most Muslims personally prefer not to interpret their religion in this way"


----------



## Frasier Crane (Oct 7, 2014)

Normsky said:


> The context that all religion is fiction, wrote in barbaric and harsh times, the works of fiction reflect the conditions the people at that time lived in. Again it is no coincidence god seems to have morally evolved at the exact same rate that our societies have. Can you show me any written text from those times that didn't have horrific stuff in them? No! because they are a reflection of the times.


You're like an aggressive, reoccurring, and ultimately unwanted STI,

Why do you think God evolved or changed in anyway?


----------



## Mclovin147 (Nov 11, 2013)

Delhi said:


> Once again your IGNORANCE shines through. Right now the biggest uptake of new users on Facebook is from OVER 50s. That's right the most *new accounts are created by people who in your words "can't even compose an email"*. Yes the guys who created YouTube etc may have been young when they built it but they are not 20 anymore kid.
> 
> *Look at the facts* not what your youthful inexperience is showing you. All the big tech companies are owned and run by people mostly in their 50s and 60s.
> 
> ...


First line in bold. I used my own father as an example of someone who likes to vote, is in his mid 40's, is a very average guy all round and made the point in saying he doesn't know how to compose an email to get his level of computer understanding across, and said there a hell of a lot more people his age in the same position simply Bevause, unlike me, they were not taught on and about computers in school etc, and they do not need computers for their jobs. I also made the observation that those who are not interested/unable to access in Youtube or social media sites are missing out on a lot of relevant news and informarion from mostly impartial, or certainly impartial compared to corporate companies such as Fox, who's CEO, Rupert Murdoch has shares in the oil business in Syria and benefits massively from these conflicts, I'd consider views from people such as Max Keiser, Russel Brand etc a great representative of the other end of the spectrum (Those that don't benefit from conflict and who's views are not controlled/restricted) - how does any of that relate to me having dismissed that age group of being able to use a computers effectively mate? Explain how that comparisont is misleading/incorrect.

Most of what I have contributed towards to ISIS debate has been fact, or my opinions based on/around facts. Feel free to disagree with my opinions, that goes without saying. But don't sit there and tell me my *opinions* are 'wrong'. I haven't done it to anyone, I have disagreed, and even questioned very questionable 'facts' made by others, remember the '99% Of Muslims are radical' fact?

You seem to have this idea in your head that I am some sort of pro-Islamic person which is completely the opposite of what I am, I consider my self agnostic, or at the very least an atheist at this point In time. I was simply suggesting that before we started rounding up Musilims and started performing old british methods of torture (as suggested), we should at least take the time to recognise that this whole ISIS group accounts for a seriously small percentage of Muslims. Fair?

And I particulaly loved the last paragraph, 'Ship me off to the east, feed him to the wolves! Let the boy learn of his mistakes" comical, but why is me visiting a war torn country relevant mate?

And why "I and the other oldies" why are you turning this into some young v old debate? Age has no relevance on current affairs that have only just begun, surely? And don't say I started it (Which your going to) and if you are going to, go read paragraph one again.

If I did come across as offensive at any point, I do sincerely apologise!


----------



## DeskSitter (Jan 28, 2013)

Mclovin147 said:


> Thanks mate.
> 
> The only thing that is delaying it right now IMO is the current generation of working class people aged 35 and up who don't have/know how to use technology such as youtube to watch REAL news and REAL stories/statistics/figures from around the world. My father for example, average but hard working man, carpenter, still votes because he thinks it makes a difference...He's also useless with computers, as are the majority of people his age (46) and don't even know how to write an e-mail lol ..But average men and women like him only have access to things such as Newspapers and BBC news etc which as we know are often Misguided to say the least, or withhold information etc
> 
> ...


True and the older the person the more ingrained the 'programming'. The current system relies on voter apathy and ignorance, I can't remember who said it but the phrase ''if my vote mattered I wouldn't be allowed to vote'' has always stuck in my mind.

Interesting you mention the 40+ generation, of course now hopelessly dependent on the current system and not knowing there's not enough money in the pot to pay for their care or even their pensions. It's gonna get very very ugly. In a way I'm more excited than fearful. As a 20+ there's very little about the current system I really care much for, and I'm not going to be working every hour god sends or be forced to wipe old @rse to pay the bills, I'd sooner put them in the ground myself :lol: I welcome whatever comes, no matter how extreme, even if unstable for a while. When our lot take over things will be VERY different and the sooner the better, put the baby boomers to rest and wipe all memory ASAP


----------



## BettySwallocks (Aug 1, 2012)

saxondale said:


> were they getting beaten because they were been dicks or because of some distant far away war?


merrr bit of both i'd say, initially getting beaten for being a dick, but then there was a few people slapping them about giving the racial slurs and nobody diving in to save them, I wouldn't of thought recent events helped them much.


----------



## Delhi (Dec 8, 2005)

Mclovin147 said:


> First line in bold. I used my own father as an example of someone who likes to vote, is in his mid 40's, is a very average guy all round and made the point in saying he doesn't know how to compose an email to get his level of computer understanding across, and said there a hell of a lot more people his age in the same position simply Bevause, unlike me, they were not taught on and about computers in school etc, and they do not need computers for their jobs. I also made the observation that those who are not interested/unable to access in Youtube or social media sites are missing out on a lot of relevant news and informarion from mostly impartial, or certainly impartial compared to corporate companies such as Fox, who's CEO, Rupert Murdoch has shares in the oil business in Syria and benefits massively from these conflicts, I'd consider views from people such as Max Keiser, Russel Brand etc a great representative of the other end of the spectrum (Those that don't benefit from conflict and who's views are not controlled/restricted) - how does any of that relate to me having dismissed that age group of being able to use a computers effectively mate? Explain how that comparisont is misleading/incorrect.
> 
> Most of what I have contributed towards to ISIS debate has been fact, or my opinions based on/around facts. Feel free to disagree with my opinions, that goes without saying. But don't sit there and tell me my *opinions* are 'wrong'. I haven't done it to anyone, I have disagreed, and even questioned very questionable 'facts' made by others, remember the '99% Of Muslims are radical' fact?
> 
> ...


More nonsense... Because your dad can't compose an email does NOT represent people over 35. I was taught with computers in school. And so was everyone my age (37). Again look at the facts I posted, I can provide MUCH more. You INSINUATED that people over 35 were some how dumb and not tech savvy. No one I know at 35 can't compose an email.

As for social media I have again given the stats PROVING how wrong your thinking is. The fact is ALL the popular social media sites were created by and used mostly by older people.

Argue all you want, I know the stats and have posted them for you. If you can't see the ignorance in your statement then I suggest you need to go back to school


----------



## Normsky (Aug 29, 2014)

Frasier Crane said:


> You're like an aggressive, reoccurring, and ultimately unwanted STI,
> 
> Why do you think God evolved or changed in anyway?


 Are Christians burning people alive for being witches in accordance with scripture in the U.K? No.

Are Christians burning people alive for being witches in accordance with scripture in Africa? Yes.

Were Christians burning people alive for being witches in accordance with scripture hundreds of years ago? Yes.

What are material conditions like in the U.K? Good.

What are material conditions like in Africa? Terrible.

What were material conditions like hundreds of years ago? Terrible.

If you are really so obtuse as to pretend not to understand an explanation of religion via a materialist analysis of society then I really think this is pointless.

There is no god who spoke to prophets or Noah or divine births, it is all nonsense. If you look at religion as societies become more developed they either produce new religious texts which become less morally despicable to represent the growing enlightenment of the society that produces the texts or they stop taking the scripture as literal because the newly emerging morals and knowledge of the society rejects them.


----------



## Normsky (Aug 29, 2014)

Delhi said:


> More nonsense... Because your dad can't compose an email does NOT represent people over 35. I was taught with computers in school. And so was everyone my age (37). Again look at the facts I posted, I can provide MUCH more. You INSINUATED that people over 35 were some how dumb and not tech savvy. No one I know at 35 can't compose an email.
> 
> As for social media I have again given the stats PROVING how wrong your thinking is. The fact is ALL the popular social media sites were created by and used mostly by older people.
> 
> Argue all you want, I know the stats and have posted them for you. If you can't see the ignorance in your statement then I suggest you need to go back to school


I don't know anyone over the age of 25 who knows how to create mirrored proxies to bounce peoples I.P addresses to different places for people who download porn from sites, do you? Lets face it at a certain age people just struggle getting good at things.

My mum recently started playing COD and she uses the pad like a mong, its taken her like 6 months to use it correctly. There will be new inventions I struggle with when they come out at 40, what is the big deal?


----------



## Frasier Crane (Oct 7, 2014)

Normsky said:


> Are Christians burning people alive for being witches in accordance with scripture in the U.K? No.
> 
> Are Christians burning people alive for being witches in accordance with scripture in Africa? Yes.
> 
> ...


Show me any verse in the Bible were a Christian is commanded to kill anyone.

Just because a group of people claim to be Christian doesn't make it so.

Show me the new religious text which differ from the original teachings of Christianity


----------



## Mclovin147 (Nov 11, 2013)

Delhi said:


> More nonsense... Because your dad can't compose an email does NOT represent people over 35. I was taught with computers in school. And so was everyone my age (37). Again look at the facts I posted, I can provide MUCH more. You INSINUATED that people over 35 were some how dumb and not tech savvy. No one I know at 35 can't compose an email.
> 
> As for social media I have again given the stats PROVING how wrong your thinking is. The fact is ALL the popular social media sites were created by and used mostly by older people.
> 
> Argue all you want, I know the stats and have posted them for you. If you can't see the ignorance in your statement then I suggest you need to go back to school


Firstly, my father is not 35, he is fast approaching 50 (scary thought in its self!) secondly, secondly because Iv said this twice now, when did I call/insinuate anyone was dumb (Only you've done that)? Or even suggested that someone was dumb...Being able to use YouTube is not exactly a measure for intelligence now is it!!?

You know full well what I was getting at in my original post mate, regardless of the figures. we've lost track of the original point I was trying to make and the topic (Our predictions of a Revolution based around Economic equality) I was debating with someone, can't remember his username sorry, so we should probably stop spamming away between us.

Tell you what though, il give your posts a re-read and check back over mine, compare facts/statistics/research and adjust them in my original post if I am mistaken whilst skipping over the insults and your offer of a free all-inclusive holiday to an ISIS camp to have my head chopped off (I could use a holiday mind!) 

Good talking to you!


----------



## MrTwisted (Sep 14, 2014)

Frasier Crane said:


> Show me any verse in the Bible were a Christian is commanded to kill anyone.
> 
> Just because a group of people claim to be Christian doesn't make it so.
> 
> Show me the new religious text which differ from the original teachings of Christianity


He has shown you loads in previous posts.

If a group of people call themselves christians and quote scripture .... they ARE christians. You don't get to decide, they do. If all the muslims in the world denounced ISIS would you accept that? I highly doubt it.

You sir, have double standards.


----------



## Normsky (Aug 29, 2014)

Frasier Crane said:


> Show me any verse in the Bible were a Christian is commanded to kill anyone.
> 
> Just because a group of people claim to be Christian doesn't make it so.
> 
> Show me the new religious text which differ from the original teachings of Christianity


The new testament is far less disgusting than the old testament, then people dropped almost all of the **** in both books and instead cherrypicked, coincidentally as society progressed the new testament emerged and then as it progressed further Christianity basically became void of any of its conent as christian societies were enlightened and material conditions were good, thus Christianity stopped being a religion and become a traditional thing. Just like the most developed and enlightened Islamic nations are producing secular Muslims.

Please understand a materialist analysis of society, the foundation of science and rational thought.

Now if you want to pretend there is no christian scripture and peddle this fairytale you have been doing, despite being against all scholarly consensus then fine, do it, but if so I am not interested in banging my head against the wall trying to lead you by the hand to reality anymore.


----------



## Frasier Crane (Oct 7, 2014)

MrTwisted said:


> He has shown you loads in previous posts.
> 
> If a group of people call themselves christians and quote scripture .... they ARE christians. You don't get to decide, they do. If all the muslims in the world denounced ISIS would you accept that? I highly doubt it.
> 
> You sir, have double standards.


Yes, he has quoted plenty, and if you care to read back I explained them.

Fortunately you're incorrect with the idea that anyone who claims to be Christian automatically joins " The Club"

Correct I don't get to decide, but the Bible sets the standard and we are encouraged to test ourselves to see if we are of the faith

e.s.v

Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?-unless indeed you fail to meet the test!

•God gives us instructions on how we can and should "test ourselves" in scripture, which can be grouped into five major categories: 1) Gospel Belief and Confession; 2) Born Again / Sonship / Correction; 3) Repentance / Deliverance from Sin; 4) Good Works by Grace, and 5) The Fruit of the Spirit. The first three are starting points, but can also serve as ongoing tests, as we will see. The last two are living proof of "Christ Jesus in us", or not. These scriptures should encourage those who are true Christians, and give cause for sober reflection to those who think they are but are not.

Please show me my double standard


----------



## Frasier Crane (Oct 7, 2014)

20 Therefore, by their fruits ye shall know them.

21 "Not every one that saith unto Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter into the Kingdom of Heaven, but he that doeth the will of My Father who is in Heaven.

22 Many will say to Me in that Day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Thy name, and in Thy name have cast out devils, and in Thy name done many wonderful works?'

23 And then will I profess unto them, 'I never knew you: depart from Me, ye that work iniquity.'


----------



## saxondale (Nov 11, 2012)

Frasier Crane said:


> "This is what makes the Quran's verses of violence so dangerous. They are given the weight of divine command. While Muslim terrorists take them as literally as anything else in their holy book, and understand that Islam is incomplete without Jihad, moderates offer little to contradict them - outside of opinion. Indeed, what do they have? Speaking of peace and love may win over the ignorant, but when every twelfth verse of Islam's holiest book either speaks to Allah's hatred for non-Muslims or calls for their death, forced conversion, or subjugation, it's little wonder that sympathy for terrorism runs as deeply as it does in the broader community - even if most Muslims personally prefer not to interpret their religion in this way"


Oi - who you calling ignorant?

not srs


----------



## Frasier Crane (Oct 7, 2014)

Normsky said:


> The new testament is far less disgusting than the old testament, then people dropped almost all of the **** in both books and instead cherrypicked, coincidentally as society progressed the new testament emerged and then as it progressed further Christianity basically became void of any of its conent as christian societies were enlightened and material conditions were good, thus Christianity stopped being a religion and become a traditional thing. Just like the most developed and enlightened Islamic nations are producing secular Muslims.
> 
> Please understand a materialist analysis of society, the foundation of science and rational thought.
> 
> Now if you want to pretend there is no christian scripture and peddle this fairytale you have been doing, despite being against all scholarly consensus then fine, do it, but if so I am not interested in banging my head against the wall trying to lead you by the hand to reality anymore.


You're mentally not equipped to deal with these issues, and it's not your fault, but mine for thinking, naively that I could explain it to you.

You write with little to no argument which isn't circular, this makes it nigh on impossible to debate with you in a meaningful way.

1 Corinthians 2:14King James Version (KJV)

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

So it seems it would take an act of God for you to understand these things.

I think we have finally finished are conversation


----------



## Normsky (Aug 29, 2014)

Frasier Crane said:


> *You're mentally not equipped to deal with these issues*, and it's not your fault, but mine for thinking, naively that I could explain it to you.
> 
> You write with little to no argument which isn't circular, this makes it nigh on impossible to debate with you in a meaningful way.
> 
> ...


 You won't accept reality because you would have to accept that god is not real and that goes against your entire world view. It is like debating evolution with a religious person.


----------



## saxondale (Nov 11, 2012)

DeskSitter said:


> True and the older the person the more ingrained the 'programming'. The current system relies on voter apathy and ignorance, I can't remember who said it but the phrase ''if my vote mattered I wouldn't be allowed to vote'' has always stuck in my mind.
> 
> Interesting you mention the 40+ generation, of course now hopelessly dependent on the current system and not knowing there's not enough money in the pot to pay for their care or even their pensions. It's gonna get very very ugly. In a way I'm more excited than fearful. As a 20+ there's very little about the current system I really care much for, and I'm not going to be working every hour god sends or be forced to wipe old @rse to pay the bills, I'd sooner put them in the ground myself :lol: I welcome whatever comes, no matter how extreme, even if unstable for a while. When our lot take over things will be VERY different and the sooner the better, put the baby boomers to rest and wipe all memory ASAP


things have never been different they were warning about funding gaps when I was your age, but just so you know - by the time your peers become leader (you`ll still be sticking plasterboard to walls with expanding foam) the baby boomers will have been dead 20 years. Just another "I know nothing and am not afraid to show it" post from @DeskSitter.


----------



## saxondale (Nov 11, 2012)

Normsky said:


> Are Christians burning people alive for being witches in accordance with scripture in the U.K? No.
> 
> Are Christians burning people alive for being witches in accordance with scripture in Africa? Yes.
> 
> ...


when you start contradicting and arguing with your self mate - thats the time to hang up the keyboard and go and do something more constructive, i would suggest joining a gym so you can join in with the rest of the people who post on UK-M until then give it a rest, your no longer making sense


----------



## Frasier Crane (Oct 7, 2014)

Normsky said:


> You won't accept reality because you would have to accept that god is not real and that goes against your entire world view. It is like debating evolution with a religious person.


I'll accept God is not real if you can provide me with evidence to the contrary.


----------



## Normsky (Aug 29, 2014)

Frasier Crane said:


> I'll accept God is not real if you can provide me with evidence to the contrary.


I can't provide evidence the flying spaghetti monster does not exist, so do you think he exists too?


----------



## saxondale (Nov 11, 2012)

Normsky said:


> I don't know anyone over the age of 25 who knows how to create mirrored proxies to bounce peoples I.P addresses to different places for people who download porn from sites, do you? Lets face it at a certain age people just struggle getting good at things.
> 
> My mum recently started playing COD and she uses the pad like a mong, its taken her like 6 months to use it correctly. There will be new inventions I struggle with when they come out at 40, what is the big deal?


your measure of someone's IT ability is porn - are you 14 years old or something? I`m sat here controlling several CCTV camera routings, a half dozen cloud based security systems and just authorised access to a tower block in Doncaster for a neighbourhood warden to check on Mrs Jomes who hasn`t used her tag to get in or out of the building for 76hrs.

and I know fck all about computers


----------



## Frasier Crane (Oct 7, 2014)

Normsky said:


> I can't provide evidence the flying spaghetti monster does not exist, so do you think he exists too?


really......................................


----------



## saxondale (Nov 11, 2012)

Frasier Crane said:


> really......................................


dont worry, I have footage of a flying spaghetti monster .....................


----------



## Normsky (Aug 29, 2014)

Frasier Crane said:


> really......................................


Yes, you can not disprove a non-truth. The onus is on you to prove the existence of something you claim to exist, not for everyone to automatically hold as true until it can be disproved.

Can you disprove that Allah is the one true god and Muhammad is his messenger?

Way to have the complete opposite method of science, that bodes well for rationality.


----------



## Frasier Crane (Oct 7, 2014)

Normsky said:


> Yes, you can not disprove a non-truth. The onus is on you to prove the existence of something you claim to exist, not to be held as true until it can be disproves.
> 
> Way to have the complete opposite method of science, that bodes well for rationality.


The evidence of a creator is all around you,

The human brain...simultaneously processes an amazing amount of information. Your brain takes in all the colors and objects you see, the temperature around you, the pressure of your feet against the floor, the sounds around you, the dryness of your mouth, even the texture of your keyboard. Your brain holds and processes all your emotions, thoughts and memories. At the same time your brain keeps track of the ongoing functions of your body like your breathing pattern, eyelid movement, hunger and movement of the muscles in your hands.

existence of God The human brain processes more than a million messages a second.7 Your brain weighs the importance of all this data, filtering out the relatively unimportant. This screening function is what allows you to focus and operate effectively in your world. The brain functions differently than other organs. There is an intelligence to it, the ability to reason, to produce feelings, to dream and plan, to take action, and relate to other people

You would agree, there is a certain intelligence to it wouldn't you?


----------



## Normsky (Aug 29, 2014)

Frasier Crane said:


> The evidence of a creator is all around you,
> 
> The human brain...simultaneously processes an amazing amount of information. Your brain takes in all the colors and objects you see, the temperature around you, the pressure of your feet against the floor, the sounds around you, the dryness of your mouth, even the texture of your keyboard. Your brain holds and processes all your emotions, thoughts and memories. At the same time your brain keeps track of the ongoing functions of your body like your breathing pattern, eyelid movement, hunger and movement of the muscles in your hands.
> 
> ...


The level of purposeful ignorance is so shocking and scientifically illiterate I do not wish to laugh at you but my god, this is truly silly. The brain is complex thus god must exist is one of the most irrational and sad things I have heard in the recent attempts by you to prop up your decaying ideology.

God be with you I guess.


----------



## saxondale (Nov 11, 2012)

Normsky said:


> The level of purposeful ignorance is so shocking and scientifically illiterate I do not wish to laugh at you but my god, this is truly silly. The brain is complex thus god must exist is one of the most irrational and sad things I have heard in the recent attempts by you to prop up your decaying ideology.
> 
> God be with you I guess.


read post 306 then read your post again - goodnight mate, your using your own argument against yourself.


----------



## Frasier Crane (Oct 7, 2014)

This entire thread is here for everybody to judge for themselves about who is ignorant and who isn't.

You attempted to use the Bible to prove contradictions, and failed miserably, yet you kept rehashing the same nonsense over and over.

so it basically comes down to, you don't believe in God,

that's great brah lol nobodys forcing you


----------



## saxondale (Nov 11, 2012)

Frasier Crane said:


> This entire thread is here for everybody to judge for themselves about who is ignorant and who isn't.
> 
> You attempted to use the Bible to prove contradictions, and failed miserably, yet you kept rehashing the same nonsense over and over.
> 
> ...


still, Jesus loves him


----------



## Frasier Crane (Oct 7, 2014)

saxondale said:


> read post 306 then read your post again - goodnight mate, your using your own argument against yourself.


It starting to hurt, reading these posts.


----------



## saxondale (Nov 11, 2012)

Frasier Crane said:


> It starting to hurt, reading these posts.


my posts?


----------



## Frasier Crane (Oct 7, 2014)

saxondale said:


> still, Jesus loves him


lol


----------



## Frasier Crane (Oct 7, 2014)

saxondale said:


> my posts?


nah his mate


----------



## saxondale (Nov 11, 2012)

he`s a little sunbeam really.

I think (hope) the threads died now become tedious.


----------



## Normsky (Aug 29, 2014)

Frasier Crane said:


> This entire thread is here for everybody to judge for themselves about who is ignorant and who isn't.
> 
> You attempted to use the Bible to prove contradictions, and failed miserably, yet you kept rehashing the same nonsense over and over.
> 
> ...


How old is the earth?

Can you disprove Allah is the one true god and Mohamed is his messenger?

Your entire premise that christian scripture is not to be followed by Christians despite scholarly consensus being clear on it and your refusal to accept a material analysis of society and thus religion as an explanation of why some religions are producing more terror than other is directly because you have a predetermined stance based on your religious views that you won't disregard for any evidence or otherwise.


----------



## saxondale (Nov 11, 2012)

Normsky said:


> How old is the earth?
> 
> Can you disprove Allah is the one true god and Mohamed is his messenger?
> 
> Your entire premise that christian scripture is not to be followed by Christians despite scholarly consensus being clear on it and your refusal to accept a material analysis of society and thus religion as an explanation of why some religions are producing more terror than other is directly because you have a predetermined stance based on your religious views that you won't disregard for any evidence or otherwise.


go to bed, your talking nonsense mate


----------



## Mclovin147 (Nov 11, 2013)

Frasier Crane said:


> It starting to hurt, reading these posts.


Couldn't agree more, I'm clueless at this and giving my self a headache trying to figure it out.

Anyway, I just liked that post for a reason mate...Question actually...These 'Levictis' commands was it? That say homosexuals should be put to death, as well as all other wrong doers, you said these were not aimed at Christians and therefore Christians are not morally obliged to follow them. (I should hope not! Lol)

But just who were these commands for mate? Baffling me it is.

(would have quoted it to make it easier, but there was a shít ton of text, I'm on my iPhone, things would have got messy)


----------



## Frasier Crane (Oct 7, 2014)

Mclovin147 said:


> Couldn't agree more, I'm clueless at this and giving my self a headache trying to figure it out.
> 
> Anyway, I just liked that post for a reason mate...Question actually...These 'Levictis' commands was it? That say homosexuals should be put to death, as well as all other wrong doers, you said these were not aimed at Christians and therefore Christians are not morally obliged to follow them. (I should hope not! Lol)
> 
> ...


Those commands where for Israel, Gods chosen people, not Christians.

If you watch, or listen to any debate online, this argumentation is never used because even the educated atheists understand the context, and wouldn't dream of making themselves appear to be so stupid.

That's not directed at you by the way mate.

Most confessing Christians, have at best a basic understanding of the Bible


----------



## Normsky (Aug 29, 2014)

Frasier Crane said:


> Those commands where for Israel, Gods chosen people, not Christians.
> 
> If you watch, or listen to any debate online, this argumentation is never used because even the educated atheists understand the context, and wouldn't dream of making themselves appear to be so stupid.
> 
> ...


Can you disprove Allah is the one true god and Mohammed is his messenger? If not you believe it right?

If you have a literal interpretation of the bible and believe it to be truly holy, how old would you have to say the earth is?

Why do jews not have large segments committing religious terrorism who uphold the old testament and but muslims who uphold the old testament too do? Anything to do with poverty, anything to do with how conditions are reflected by religion and a material analysis of the world?

If you believe in the god of the old testament who gave those violent murderous laws to be god and infallible why is the koran wrong for preaching violence in accordance with the old testament but your god was not wrong to command the jews to do the same? Or is god not infallible?


----------



## Mclovin147 (Nov 11, 2013)

Frasier Crane said:


> Those commands where for Israel, Gods chosen people, not Christians.
> 
> If you watch, or listen to any debate online, this argumentation is never used because even the educated atheists understand the context, and wouldn't dream of making themselves appear to be so stupid.
> 
> ...


Okey, thanks for clearing that up budd.

Bloody confusing subject for someone like me who's a complete 'outsider' the Religeon.

Will have to take a proper look into it all someday, but it shall not be tonight! Night folks


----------



## Frasier Crane (Oct 7, 2014)

Normsky said:


> Can you disprove Allah is the one true god and Mohammed is his messenger? If not you believe it right?


Allah means God

I agree, there is one true God

I do not believe Mohammed is a messenger from God as he denied Jesus deity.

Islam deny Jesus as the Son of God along with his death on the cross and resurrection

With that a Christian can confidently say this is a false prophet preaching a different Gospel than was originally taught


----------



## Normsky (Aug 29, 2014)

Frasier Crane said:


> Allah means God
> 
> I agree, there is one true God
> 
> ...


Good dodging of the content of my question.

Will you actually answer these ones?

So you can't prove Mohammed wasn't his messenger? So according to your logic its true, there is as much proof Mohammed was gods messenger as there is that Christ was divine.

If you take the old testament to be a holy book which you must to be a christian, how old must you believe the earth is?


----------



## Frasier Crane (Oct 7, 2014)

Muslim scholars are always scouring the Old and New Testaments trying to push prophesy of Mohammed into them, and failed every time,

You should note this does not happen in reverse with The Koran regarding Christianity.

Nobody not even well respected secular historians deny that Jesus walked this earth

historians, whether Christian or not, broadly agree on the basic facts of Jesus' life (see Jesus in history). EP Sanders, just about the most respected NT scholar of the past 30 years, and cautiously sceptical, wrote in The Historical Figure of Jesus, p10-11:

I shall first offer a list of statements about Jesus that meet two standards: they are almost beyond dispute; and they belong to the framework of his life, and especially of his public career. (A list of everything that we know about Jesus would be appreciably longer.)

Jesus was born c 4 BCE near the time of the death of Herod the Great;

he spent his childhood and early adult years in Nazareth, a Galilean village;

he was baptised by John the Baptist;

he called disciples;

he taught in the towns, villages and countryside of Galilee (apparently not the cities);

he preached 'the kingdom of God';

about the year 30 he went to Jerusalem for Passover;

he created a disturbance in the Temple area;

he had a final meal with the disciples;

he was arrested and interrogated by Jewish authorities, specifically the high priest;

he was executed on the orders of the Roman prefect, Pontius Pilate.

Maurice Casey and Michael Grant add a few other items to Sanders' cautious list:

•he preached repentance, forgiveness and the coming of the kingdom of God in rural and small-town Galilee;

•he was known in his day as a healer and exorcist (Casey says he was a folk healer);

•Jesus predicted his death and resurrection and he believed his death would be redemptive;

•Jesus' tomb was really empty and/or his disciples "saw" him (in what sense is uncertain) after his death.


----------



## Normsky (Aug 29, 2014)

Frasier Crane said:


> Muslim scholars are always scouring the Old and New Testaments trying to push prophesy of Mohammed into them, and failed every time,
> 
> You should note this does not happen in reverse with The Koran regarding Christianity.
> 
> ...


You said you would believe in god (as a christian) until god is disproven.

Will you believe in Mohammed until he is disproven (actually disproven)

Will you believe in Thor and Odin until there is proof multiple gods do not exist?

How old do you have to believe the earth is if you believe in the validity of the old testament?


----------



## Frasier Crane (Oct 7, 2014)

Normsky said:


> Good dodging of the content of my question.
> 
> Will you actually answer these ones?
> 
> ...


Of course I can, and I did.

Mohammad taught contrary to the Gospel from Jesus.

Christians and Muslims both take the Old Testament as a Holy book

Jesus was prophesied in the Old Testament, Mohammad was not.

Where are you struggling? other than complete disbelief


----------



## Normsky (Aug 29, 2014)

Frasier Crane said:


> Of course I can, and I did.
> 
> Mohammad taught contrary to the Gospel from Jesus.
> 
> ...


I asked for evidence, you have just said my book said it. That is not evidence.

How old do you have to believe the earth is if you uphold the old testament?


----------



## Frasier Crane (Oct 7, 2014)

Normsky said:


> I asked for evidence, you have just said my book said it. That is not evidence.
> 
> How old do you have to believe the earth is if you uphold the old testament?


You're not good at this are you.

This is simple, the onus is on you to prove that this Mohammad even existed in the first place, after that I'll just deny your evidence as dumb and stupid,

rinse and repeat

look familiar?


----------



## Normsky (Aug 29, 2014)

Frasier Crane said:


> You're not good at this are you.
> 
> This is simple, the onus is on you to prove that this Mohammad even existed in the first place, after that I'll just deny your evidence as dumb and stupid,
> 
> ...


So if the onus is on me to prove Mohammed is real why is the onus not on you to prove god is real! I finally walked you into it! Bravo.

Why will you believe in god until someone proves otherwise but only believe in Mohammed if someone shows proof?


----------



## Frasier Crane (Oct 7, 2014)

Normsky said:


> I asked for evidence, you have just said my book said it. That is not evidence.
> 
> How old do you have to believe the earth is if you uphold the old testament?


Its also not " my book " whatever you mean by that,

I mentioned previously that Muslims accept the Torah as holy Scripture, so for me to make arguments from that book to refute Mohammad is quite logical is it not?


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## Normsky (Aug 29, 2014)

Normsky said:


> So if the onus is on me to prove Mohammed is real why is the onus not on you to prove god is real! I finally walked you into it! Bravo.
> 
> Why will you believe in god until someone proves otherwise but only believe in Mohammed if someone shows proof?


 @Frasier Crane please answer this

Also please answer my question where I asked if you uphold the old testament how old do you have to believe the earth is?


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## Frasier Crane (Oct 7, 2014)

Normsky said:


> So if the onus is on me to prove Mohammed is real why is the onus not on you to prove god is real! I finally walked you into it! Bravo.
> 
> Why will you believe in god until someone proves otherwise but only believe in Mohammed if someone shows proof?


Your notion that burden of proof is on me is flawed and common,

If someone wanted to claim that the existence of God is scientifically provable then he would need to formulate a testable prediction based on the hypothesis that God exists and then run the test and see if the prediction is fulfilled.

In the same way, if someone wanted to claim that the non-existence of God is scientifically provable then he would need to formulate the same kind of testable prediction, run the test, and see if the prediction is fulfilled.

Either way, the test would need to be well-designed, replicable, etc., etc., for the matter to be considered scientifically proved.

There are difficulties involved in running tests involving a Being who is not detectable by the senses and who may or may not choose to act in ways that are detectable by the senses.

These difficulties have convinced many that it is not easy to use the scientific method to either prove or disprove the existence of God. Some hold that it is simply impossible.

Our point, though, is that the burden of proof falls equally on the one wanting to assert and the one wanting to deny the existence of God.


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## Normsky (Aug 29, 2014)

Frasier Crane said:


> Your notion that burden of proof is on me is flawed and common,
> 
> If someone wanted to claim that the existence of God is scientifically provable then he would need to formulate a testable prediction based on the hypothesis that God exists and then run the test and see if the prediction is fulfilled.
> 
> ...


Brilliant 

If you uphold the old testament how old do you have to believe the earth is?


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## Frasier Crane (Oct 7, 2014)

Normsky said:


> @Frasier Crane please answer this
> 
> Also please answer my question where I asked if you uphold the old testament how old do you have to believe the earth is?


You are hilarious, The Old Testament does not tell me the age of the Earth


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## Delhi (Dec 8, 2005)

Normsky said:


> I don't know anyone over the age of 25 who knows how to create mirrored proxies to bounce peoples I.P addresses to different places for people who download porn from sites, do you? Lets face it at a certain age people just struggle getting good at things.
> 
> My mum recently started playing COD and she uses the pad like a mong, its taken her like 6 months to use it correctly. There will be new inventions I struggle with when they come out at 40, what is the big deal?


Lol another IGNORANT post. Yes I do know how to set up mirror proxies, but I don't know many at EITHER 35 or 20 that can. I also know C#.net, asp, JavaScript and a few other languages and can connect remote cloud based servers using SCORM standard (1.2, 2004 and TinCan API) can you?

I also make lots of money on a full time consultative basis for many of the UK FTSE100 companies. Do you? Please let's not play the my c0ck is bigger than yours game. The fact is the poster was insinuating older generation are clueless about tech when I KNOW the opposite to be true (also posted up evidence).

I work in IT mate and know 1000s of professionals in the trade, vast majority are males above 30 ... Go figure eh??? I am guessing you don't work in IT as you would realise what I am saying is spot on. Majority of employees are males between 25 -50.

Not quite the young mans game you believe.


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## Frasier Crane (Oct 7, 2014)

I'll refer you back to # 337 and continue from their when you're ready.


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## Normsky (Aug 29, 2014)

Frasier Crane said:


> You are hilarious, The Old Testament does not tell me the age of the Earth


 

It's clear that from the very first verse of Genesis, the Bible is concerned with giving a factual account of how God has interacted with the earth. This means that it must give historically accurate details, as well as being theologically accurate. In fact, what we believe about God is based on historical claims, so if the history is inaccurate, then the theology must be as well! One of the ways the biblical authors communicated that they were giving actual history is by recording lifespans, or measuring the amount of time between certain events.

We can be confident that God's Word is accurate in its historical details as well as in what it tells us about theology.


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## Frasier Crane (Oct 7, 2014)

Normsky said:


> It's clear that from the very first verse of Genesis, the Bible is concerned with giving a factual account of how God has interacted with the earth. This means that it must give historically accurate details, as well as being theologically accurate. In fact, what we believe about God is based on historical claims, so if the history is inaccurate, then the theology must be as well! One of the ways the biblical authors communicated that they were giving actual history is by recording lifespans, or measuring the amount of time between certain events.
> 
> We can be confident that God's Word is accurate in its historical details as well as in what it tells us about theology.


You need to learn to focus on one thing at a time big lad,

Is it Islam or the Age of the Earth you would like to stay with?

I asked you previously to refer back to #337 which you have ignored, and rightly so. ( well done )


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## Normsky (Aug 29, 2014)

Frasier Crane said:


> You need to learn to focus on one thing at a time big lad,
> 
> Is it Islam or the Age of the Earth you would like to stay with?
> 
> I asked you previously to refer back to #337 which you have ignored, and rightly so. ( well done )


You seem embarrassed that you believe in the validity of a book that means you can not believe that the earth is over 6000 years old, as to do so would mean the book was incorrect and thus the subject matter is a lie. No wonder it took 12 times of me repeating the question before you even acknowledged it was asked.


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## Normsky (Aug 29, 2014)

Were the dinosaurs on Noah's ark?

How did Noah feed the animals whilst on the ark? How did the animals not each one another? How did they all fit on the ark? How long did it take him to build it? How did animals we know were blocked by water at the time get to the ark to be saved despite the geographical impossibility of it?


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## Frasier Crane (Oct 7, 2014)

Normsky said:


> You seem embarrassed that you believe in the validity of a book that means you can not believe that the earth is over 6000 years old, as to do so would mean the book was incorrect and thus the subject matter is a lie. No wonder it took 12 times of me repeating the question before you even acknowledged it was asked.


Do you really sense embarrassment through my words, when talking with you?

Your little diagram seems generally accurate according to genealogy's from the Scripture.

I'll be honest, I'm excited to see where you can go with this little gem.

I did choose to just ignore you, not because I was scared of the question, just as a matter of point as you have cherry picked my questions through the whole thread.


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## Normsky (Aug 29, 2014)

Frasier Crane said:


> Do you really sense embarrassment through my words, when talking with you?
> 
> Your little diagram seems generally accurate according to genealogy's from the Scripture.
> 
> ...


The earth is 4.5 to 4.6 billion years old so how can scripture be anything other than false?


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## Frasier Crane (Oct 7, 2014)

It's a sad day for the atheist who quotes Joe Rogan on a YouTube video as a rebuttal to the existence of a God


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## Normsky (Aug 29, 2014)

Frasier Crane said:


> It's a sad day for the atheist who quotes Joe Rogan on a YouTube video as a rebuttal to the existence of a God


Were dinosaurs on Noah's ark?

While you are at it can you explain to me why abortion is wrong but killing every pregnant woman on earth in the flood was ok?


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## Frasier Crane (Oct 7, 2014)

Normsky said:


> Were dinosaurs on Noah's ark?
> 
> While you are at it can you explain to me why abortion is wrong but killing every pregnant woman on earth in the flood was ok?


Does the universe have a beginning that requires a cause?


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## Frasier Crane (Oct 7, 2014)

I'll wait

Didn't think so

Goodnight:lol:


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## Normsky (Aug 29, 2014)

Frasier Crane said:


> Does the universe have a beginning that requires a cause?


No ones knows how the universe began, that however does not mean we blindly believe a book that was written thousands of years ago and was translated from its original language and which can be disproved by merely showing the evidence for earth being 4.5 - 4.6 billion years old, the book however has a 6000 year timeline, which means it can not be true, neither can anything else in it be considered true because if it is wrong about the age of the earth whoever wrote it was not infallible and therefore was not laying down the word of god.


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## Frasier Crane (Oct 7, 2014)

Normsky said:


> No ones knows how the universe began, that however does not mean we blindly believe a book that was written thousands of years ago and was translated from its original language and which can be disproved by merely showing the evidence for earth being 4.5 - 4.6 billion years old, the book however has a 6000 year timeline, which means it can not be true, neither can anything else in it be considered true because if it is wrong about the age of the earth whoever wrote it was not infallible and therefore was not laying down the word of god.


do you believe free will is an illusion?


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## Normsky (Aug 29, 2014)

By the way I meant to say no one knows *why* the universe began. We can understand the way it began but not the reasons for the initial mechanisms, however we are advancing so fast we very well could understand so in the future.

The scientific explanation for the why by the way, if you are unaware is:

According to the big bang theory, the universe began by expanding from an infinitesimal volume with extremely high density and temperature. The universe was initially significantly smaller than even a pore on your skin.


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## Frasier Crane (Oct 7, 2014)

Normsky said:


> No ones knows how the universe began, that however does not mean we blindly believe a book that was written thousands of years ago and was translated from its original language and which can be disproved by merely showing the evidence for earth being 4.5 - 4.6 billion years old, the book however has a 6000 year timeline, which means it can not be true, neither can anything else in it be considered true because if it is wrong about the age of the earth whoever wrote it was not infallible and therefore was not laying down the word of god.


Are you not blindly believing in evolution? If no one knows how the universe began how to you understand evolution?


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## Normsky (Aug 29, 2014)

Frasier Crane said:


> do you believe free will is an illusion?


What does this have to do with you answering questions I asked you 2 pages ago?

1. Do you believe that Noah took 2 of every animal on his ark for 40 days?

2. Do you believe that the old testament is a holy text and the age of the earth is indeed 6000 years old?

3. Were dinosaurs on the ark?


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## Normsky (Aug 29, 2014)

Frasier Crane said:


> Are you not blindly believing in evolution? If no one knows how the universe began how to you understand evolution?


No one knows why, we know how as I stated above. We don't know why because there is no creation so no reason, just that it did, as we can show.


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## Frasier Crane (Oct 7, 2014)

Where does morality originate?

Is morality subjective?


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## Frasier Crane (Oct 7, 2014)

Normsky said:


> No one knows why, we know how as I stated above. We don't know why because there is no creation so no reason, just that it did, as we can show.


This doesn't make sense, rethink this


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## Frasier Crane (Oct 7, 2014)

Where does morality originate?

Is morality subjective?

It would be better If we just address the bigger issues no?

If you want answers about dinosaurs and the Bible just Google it, this was not an original thought on your part, sorry mate


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## Frasier Crane (Oct 7, 2014)




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## Frasier Crane (Oct 7, 2014)




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## Normsky (Aug 29, 2014)

Frasier Crane said:


>


That was a man who believes in god saying how he thinks god is real. It is pretty much a carbon copy of all other believers speeches, no evidence, huge bias, ill fitting suit.


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## Normsky (Aug 29, 2014)

Frasier Crane said:


>


Now because you can not refute the fact the earth is 4.5-4.6 billion years old, which disproves the validity of the old testament and thus your religion your posts have devolved into posting moronic clips of silly man-children who try and desperately fit their religious beliefs into the scientific paradigm we are currently employing in the 21st century.


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## Frasier Crane (Oct 7, 2014)

Normsky said:


> That was a man who believes in god saying how he thinks god is real. It is pretty much a carbon copy of all other believers speeches, no evidence, huge bias, ill fitting suit.


You're clueless, Did you listen and understand?

clearly not lol


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## Frasier Crane (Oct 7, 2014)

Normsky said:


> Now because you can not refute the fact the earth is 4.5-4.6 billion years old, which disproves the validity of the old testament and thus your religion your posts have devolved into posting moronic clips of silly man-children who try and desperately fit their religious beliefs into the scientific paradigm we are currently employing in the 21st century.


How would you like me to refute something you cannot explain?

Again you're trying to put the onus of proof on me, you never learn.

I tried to bring this debate onto common ground, and address morality and whether you believe it is objective or not,

I sincerely belief that you haven't the faintest clue on how to approach this, take a minute, google the **** out of it, and let me know


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## MrTwisted (Sep 14, 2014)

Frasier Crane said:


> How would you like me to refute something you cannot explain?
> 
> Again you're trying to put the onus of proof on me, you never learn.
> 
> ...


The onus was put on you because this is exactly what you tried to do.

Fraiser: prove your god exists or he doesn't

Normsky: prove your god exists wothout referong to your book.

Fraiser: no you have to prove my god isn't real, the onus is on you to disprove my belief.

And repeat ad infinitum.

Just for clarity, I was raised C of E by protestant parents wth irish/Scottish protestant grandparents. Baptism, church, sunday school the whole shabang. I am agnostic (unbeliever due to lack of proof and circular logic by all christians) I am open to the idea of monotheism but I will not believe anything wothout proof.

Just thought I'd add that before I was called islamic etc

@Normsky you're wasting your breath with this one.

@FraiserCrane - you peddle beliefs as facts and expect people to accept them. Envious of your ability to accept things unquestionably but most people cannot do this.


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## saxondale (Nov 11, 2012)

Normsky said:


> If you have a literal interpretation of the bible and believe it to be truly holy.
> 
> ?


only a nut job would do that mate or most Christian cults (wako, JW, PB etc) and we know your not Christian, so that leaves just the nut job option?

any way its 8.00am on Sunday, off to the gym, are you coming?


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## saxondale (Nov 11, 2012)

Frasier Crane said:


> do you believe free will is an illusion?





Frasier Crane said:


> Are you not blindly believing in evolution? If no one knows how the universe began how to you understand evolution?





Frasier Crane said:


> Where does morality originate?
> 
> Is morality subjective?


stop asking him questions he can`t google a reply to mate, not fair.


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## Frasier Crane (Oct 7, 2014)

MrTwisted said:


> The onus was put on you because this is exactly what you tried to do.
> 
> Fraiser: prove your god exists or he doesn't
> 
> ...


Just like Normsky, you haven't read anything discussed, A big difference between Christianity and Islam is I'm not going to take your head of for not believing,

Maybe if you answer my questions, your post would have meant a little more , you have not been involved in this debate for a reason.


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## Normsky (Aug 29, 2014)

Your nonsense is easily shown to be a cherrypicked nonsense. One of my favorite pieces on the subject

1) There is no explicit or categorical textual proof from the New Testament that supports the idea that the Old Testament (or the Law) "doesn't count". For every verse cited to prove such a claim, there is another that can be cited for the opposite view. In fact, it seems that the textual proof for the opposite view is greater, even overwhelming. For example, Jesus says in the Gospels:

Matthew 5:17 Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

5:18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

5:19 Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

And Jesus also said:

Luke 16:17 But it is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for one dot of the Law to become void.

There are other verses that similarly seem to affirm the importance of keeping the Law. On the other hand, the evidences used to counter this view are less explicit and less direct.

2) Both the Old and New Testament are considered by all mainstream branches of Christianity to be"just as inspired as the New Testament." The New Testament itself affirms the accuracy of the Old Testament:

2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,

3:17 so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

"All Scripture - This properly refers to the Old Testament&#8230;it includes the whole of the Old Testament, and is the solemn testimony of Paul that it was all inspired." More importantly, as Catholic.com says (emphasis is ours): "Scripture - all of Scripture - is inspired by God (2 Tim. 3:16). This means that the Old Testament is just as inspired as the New Testament and thus an expression of the will of Christ."

[update I: A reader pointed out the following: Christians see Jesus as God. That means that he was also the God of the Old Testament. The same God who commanded all those killings and the author of all those violent and disgusting commands as listed in your previous articles. So the violence Jesus supports and predicts is not only evident in the New Testament, but he is supposedly also the author of said violent commands in the Old testament as well. Not only then is the Old Testament "an expression of the will of Christ"--it is Christ.]

Protestant Christianity, as seen on this popular Evangelical site, also agrees with this assessment:

Jesus is always in perfect agreement with the Father (John 10:30), so we cannot argue that war was only God's will in the Old Testament. God does not change (Malachi 3:6; James 1:17).

3) On this note, Jesus Christ himself is depicted in the New Testament as being very violent during his Second Coming (see part 5). Even if we completely sweep the Biblical prophets and the Old Testament under the rug (which is exactly what anti-Muslim Christians do in debates with Muslims), it doesn't change the fact that Jesus in the New Testament is very violent: he promises to kill or subjugate all of his enemies, which includes those whose only crime is to refuse to believe in him. So, even if we completely disregard the OT, this wouldn't solve the "problem".

More importantly, the fact that Jesus promised to kill his enemies (a promise he made during his First Coming)-even if he is yet to fulfill this promise-shows that Jesus did not reject the violent ways of the earlier Biblical prophets. He simply was not in a position of authority or power to carry out these acts of unbridled violence. He wouldn't have promised violence if he truly rejected the OT's violence.

When we published an article about the violent Second Coming of Christ, many critics cried "you can't compare Jesus' supposed violence in the future with what Muhammad actually already did!" (How quickly anti-Muslim Christians can turn something they believe in with all their might and which they believe is central to their faith-the Second Coming of Christ-into a "supposed" event makes us wonder if this is not Christian taqiyya?) Yet, it was during his First Coming that Jesus made the promise to kill all those who did not believe in him; the action-a violent threat to ruthlessly slaughter infidels (i.e. Luke 19:27)-has already been made.

4) Christians not only routinely cite the Old Testament, but they specifically cite it with regard to Jesus. Various prophecies in the OT are attributed to Jesus: these prophecies depict the Messiah as a violent conquering king who brutally vanquishes his enemies. (Please read the section entitled "Christians Affirm Militant Old Testament Prophecies" in part 5 of the Understanding Jihad Series.) This reinforces point #3 above: Jesus is seen as fulfilling, not rejecting, the violence of the Old Testament. After all, the violence of the OT was "an expression of the will of Christ."

5) The official views of the Church itself do not endorse the idea of "tossing the Old Testament aside": even when it comes to formulating a doctrine in regards to war, the OT must be taken into consideration. It is argued that there is concordance, not dissonance, between the Old and New Testaments. As the esteemed theologian Prof. Samuele R. Bacchiocchi concluded:

An attentive study shows that the NT complements, rather than contradicts the teachings of the OT regarding warfare&#8230;A balanced reading of the NT texts suggests that there is a basic agreement between the Old and New Testaments on their teaching on warfare.

The violent wars in the OT are reconciled by arguing that Biblical Israel was justified in its declarations of war and was only acting in self-defense: "At various times in the Old Testament, God commanded the Israelites to defend their nation by force of arms." Of course, this is not supported by the facts: the Israelites were clearly the aggressors, annihilating and/or running off the indigenous populations of a land that they believed was divinely given to them. They were only "defending themselves" insofar as any aggressive occupier will "resist" those they occupy.

6) The fact of the matter is that all mainstream Christian groups affirm both the Old and New Testament as canon. The Church fought off any attempts to "throw away the Old Testament". In the second century of Christianity, Marcion of Sinope rejected the Old Testament because of the violence, war atrocities, and genocide contained therein. He was denounced by the Church, and his views towards the Old Testament were officially damned as heresy. Tertullian, the Father of Western Christianity, issued a rebuttal against Marcion.

We read:

Marcionism. Marcionism owed its existence to Marcion, an individual who gained popularity in Rome in 140-144. His theology was influenced heavily by the Gnostics, and he denied the power of the God of the Old Testament. He promulgated the use of a limited form of the New Testament, including Luke's Gospel and Acts, and many of the Pauline epistles, the former since Luke was a Gentile and the latter since he was sent to preach to the Gentiles. He found the God of the Old Testament contradictory and inhumane. The "orthodox" Christianity of the time rejected his argumentation, upheld the value of the Old Testament, and dutifully began the work of canonization of the Old and New Testaments. The specter of Marcion loomed large enough so as to merit refutation by Tertullian at the end of the second century; nevertheless, Marcion's movement mostly died out or assimilated into other Gnostic groups.

Marcionism died out, thanks to the Church and its insistence of the Old Testament's validity. The Catholic Encyclopedia calls the Marcionist sect "perhaps the most dangerous foe Christianity has ever known." Today, there are some modern-day believers, called New Testament Only Christians, who reject the Old Testament due to its inherent violence, war atrocities, and genocide. This group is a very small minority, a "heretical" group that is at odds with the main body of Christianity.

So, unless you happen to be a New Testament Only Christian, the "But That's Just the Old Testament!" Defense simply doesn't apply to you. The existence of the New Testament Only Christians, however, is actually indicative of just how violent the Bible is: it couldn't be reconciled, so more than half of it had to be jettisoned.

* * * *

None of this is to say that Christians must interpret the Bible in a violent manner. But what we aresaying is that a softer reading of the Bible requires textual acrobatics, convoluted argumentation, and theological mind-bending. The reasons given why the Old Testament Law are no longer in effect are far more complex to grasp then the simple, straight-forward understanding one gets from reading Jesus' seemingly simple, straight-forward statements, such as:

Matthew 5:17 Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

5:18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

5:19 Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

This reinforces a point made in an earlier part of this Series:

?Why is it that these anti-Muslim ideologues allow theological and textual acrobatics when it comes to the Bible, but meanwhile they forbid the contextualization of Quranic verses? Certainly it is much easier to "constrain" the violent verses of the Quran than it is for the Bible, since the Quran itself almost always cushions these verses in between mitigating verses. This contrasts quite considerably with the Bible, which has violent verses wrapped in violent passages.

Anti-Muslim Christians point to various verses of the Quran that they claim are intrinsically violent. When it is pointed out to them that their own holy book is replete with violent passages, they respond by explaining why and how they interpret these Biblical passages in a peaceful manner. In the same breath, however, they forbid Muslims from doing the same to the Quran.

Rejecting the Old Testament is a perfectly fine way for a Christian believer to theologically constrain the violence of the Bible, one that we wholeheartedly support. But such a believer should know that his holy book requires such theological mechanisms to constrain its violence, and this should logically endow upon him some religious modesty when it comes to the holy books of others.

* * * *

7) Perhaps the most important reason why the "But That's Just the Old Testament!" Defense doesn't work is that it doesn't do a damned thing for Jewish followers of the Hebrew Bible. Jews don't believe in the New Testament or Jesus. In fact, their most holiest of books is the Torah, which is the first five books of the Old Testament (known as the Tanakh or Hebrew Bible to Jews). These include Exodus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy-some of the most violent books of the entire Bible, replete with holy war and divinely ordained genocide. To Jews, the Torah and the Hebrew Bible are 100% active and applicable, with no New Testament to overrule or abrogate them.

When we published articles showcasing the violence of the Bible-especially after our article about"the Bible's prescriptive, open-ended, and universal commandments to wage holy war and enslave infidels"-pro-Christian elements were quick to throw the Old Testament (and their Jewish comrades) under the bus: The God of the Old Testament was a god of war, whereas the New Testament is a god of love.

In order to prove their claim against Islam, the anti-Muslim ideologues must prove the "uniqueness" of the Quran's violence. Certainly, this is Robert Spencer's clear-as-daylight argument on p.19 of his book The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam (and the Crusades):

The Qur'an is unique among the sacred writings of the world in counseling its adherents to make war against unbelievers.

Short of proving the uniqueness of the Quran's violence, Spencer et al. have failed in what they set out to do. If it can only be proved that the Quran is only as violent as the Tanakh (or the Torah)-or that Islam is just as violent as Judaism-then what big deal is this? If Spencer wants to fear-monger about Islam, and if-using the same standards-it can be proven that Judaism is just as violent as Islam (nay, more violent)-then will Spencer also fear-monger about Judaism? Can we expect aJewWatch.com website coming soon?

In fact, such a site already exists, and it looks like JihadWatch, just against Jews instead of Muslims. Indeed, if the same conclusions about Islam were applied to Judaism, then all this would be exposed for what it really is: wholesale bigotry. But it is much easier to get away with bigotry against Muslims than it is against Jews.

How can Robert Spencer hide behind the "But That's Just the Old Testament!" Defense when his comrade-in-arms is Jewish? Pamela Geller of the Atlas Shrugs blog is a partner in crime with Spencer and company. Clearly, the anti-Muslim Christian right is linked at the hip with Zionist Jews in their shared hatred of Muslims. Why is one side of this unholy alliance willing to throw the other under the bus, and why is the other side ominously quiet when they hear arguments such as "But That's Just the Old Testament"?

Our argument has never been that the Quran has no violence in it. Rather, our argument is: all holy books, including the Quran but also the Bible, have violence in them; in fact, the Bible is far more violent than the Quran. This is in response to the question that most Americans answered incorrectly: is Islam more likely than other religions to encourage violence? Most importantly, this argument of ours is a response to a claim made by Robert Spencer.

This argument of ours is also based in our deeply held conviction that religions and religious scriptures are just what their readers make of them, as stated in the introduction of this Series:

The reader should not think that I believe that a certain religion or another is violent. Rather, there exist peaceful and violent interpretations of religion. I reject the view held by religious orthodoxy that the human mind is simply an empty receptacle that unthinkingly "obeys" the divine plan. Hundreds of years after their prophets have died, believers (of all faiths) are forced (by virtue of not having a divine interlocutor) to exert their own minds and ethics to give life to texts, to render 3D realities from 2D texts. Such an elastic idea-that a religion is whatever its believers make it into-is certainly anathema to orthodox adherents who simply desire a step-by-step instruction manual to produce human automatons. But the truth is that even these orthodox adherents necessarily inject into the religious texts their own backgrounds, beliefs, and biases.

One can see why I do not think that simply showing a Biblical verse here or there would prove that Judaism or Christianity are violent faiths. There is a long journey from what is on the page to what is understood and put into practice. And once this reality is comprehended, it is hoped that Jews and Christians will gain a larger perspective when they approach Muslims and their religion.

Opponents have claimed that this Series so far has just been a case of tu quoque fallacy: yet, this is fundamentally misunderstanding the purpose of this Series, which is certainly not designed to convert the readers to Islam, but rather to refute the commonly held notion that Islam is somehow more violent than other faiths, a view that the majoritarian group can easily hold (and demagogues like Robert Spencer can reinforce) unless dissenters like ourselves challenge it.


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## MrTwisted (Sep 14, 2014)

Do I believe in free will. Yes absolutely, I can exactly what I want, when and how I want.

The universe began spontaneously. I don't have a phd in physics so lack the ability to completely understand or explain the principle enough but from what I have read and seen the proof of it seems legit.

As for evolution, species evolve it can be seen in the common cockroach that evolves rapidly to overcome it's environment. I remember ready a study where cockroach became flatter when put in an enviroment where the only hiding places where to small for the majority of the population. Whales have leg bones. Humans have tales. Animals that where separate for thousands of years (gallapigose islands) and are completely unrelated evolve to overcome their environment in similar ways.

Morality is a social construct. What is right and wrong is highly subjective depending on social norms of the person and the people judging it.

Anything else?


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## essexboy (Sep 7, 2008)

I have fairies living at the bottom of my garden.Is the onus on me to prove it, or the rest of the world to disprove it?


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## spod (Mar 25, 2010)

essexboy said:


> I have fairies living at the bottom of my garden.Is the onus on me to prove it, or the rest of the world to disprove it?


The onus is on you to stop eating those funny mushrooms....:eek:


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## essexboy (Sep 7, 2008)

spod said:


> The onus is on you to stop eating those funny mushrooms....:eek:


The Fairies live on em mate.They invite me for dinner on occasions.


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## geezuz (Oct 29, 2007)

Don't give them any bloody ideas


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## geezuz (Oct 29, 2007)

When I left to come home to London last Tuesday one of the tabloids listed WITH NAME PICTURES AND ADDRESSES of 21 Swedish men who has left for Syria to fight with ISIS. I say pay their tickets with tax money and make sure they are one way, let them go and stay gone or be gone.


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## Frasier Crane (Oct 7, 2014)

MrTwisted said:


> Do I believe in free will. Yes absolutely, I can exactly what I want, when and how I want.
> 
> The universe began spontaneously. I don't have a phd in physics so lack the ability to completely understand or explain the principle enough but from what I have read and seen the proof of it seems legit.
> 
> ...


You got it right in your second paragraph, you do lack the ability to understand, this Is laughable


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## Frasier Crane (Oct 7, 2014)

Normsky said:


> Your nonsense is easily shown to be a cherrypicked nonsense. One of my favorite pieces on the subject
> 
> 1) There is no explicit or categorical textual proof from the New Testament that supports the idea that the Old Testament (or the Law) "doesn't count". For every verse cited to prove such a claim, there is another that can be cited for the opposite view. In fact, it seems that the textual proof for the opposite view is greater, even overwhelming. For example, Jesus says in the Gospels:
> 
> ...


You have no understanding of what you copy and paste, this is proof


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## saxondale (Nov 11, 2012)

Normsky said:


> Your <snip> challenge it.


seriosuly fella, you need to get out of the house.


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## Normsky (Aug 29, 2014)

Frasier Crane said:


> You have no understanding of what you copy and paste, this is proof


Good rebuttal of clear and obvious proof that your interpretation is based on falsehoods and bias.


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## Frasier Crane (Oct 7, 2014)

Normsky said:


> Good rebuttal of clear and obvious proof that your interpretation is based on falsehoods and bias.


I will not rebut anymore of your nonsense, you have failed to show you understand context and how it applies to this discussion on numerous occasions.

You have dodged and avoided questions which you couldn't Google the answers for and then skip on to something else,

Until you can talk to me with your own language and thoughts I wont debate with Google any longer.


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## Normsky (Aug 29, 2014)

Frasier Crane said:


> I will not rebut anymore of your nonsense, you have failed to show you understand context and how it applies to this discussion on numerous occasions.
> 
> You have dodged and avoided questions which you couldn't Google the answers for and then skip on to something else,
> 
> Until you can talk to me with your own language and thoughts I wont debate with Google any longer.


It has not been a debate, it has been me systematically seeking out and destroying your straw men with missile after missile of cold hard logic and reason culminating in a knowledge bomb of Hiroshima size proportions laying waste to your incoherent and amazingly ignorant stances, such as the earth being 6 thousand years old, such as you believing in the story of Noah's ark, you refusing to acknowledge scripture where the old testament is clearly upheld.


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## saxondale (Nov 11, 2012)

Normsky said:


> It has not been a debate, it has been me systematically seeking out and destroying your straw men with missile after missile of cold hard logic and reason culminating in a knowledge bomb of Hiroshima size proportions laying waste to your incoherent and amazingly ignorant stances, such as the earth being 6 thousand years old, such as you believing in the story of Noah's ark, you refusing to acknowledge scripture where the old testament is clearly upheld.


yes, you win - will you stop posting now?


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## kuju (Sep 15, 2010)

Frasier Crane said:


> Again, these Old Testament quotes have been addressed in previous posts, the Bible, contrary to popular misguided belief, is not open for individual interpretation, which is where these so called "Christians" are in major error.
> 
> *It is always the case that different interpretations of the bible are used to justify different things. You claim these passages were not intended for Christians. Other Christians clearly disagree, given the wealth of different variations of Christianity that DO cite these passages as gospel that applies to them (and everyone else). So please explain how it is that you're right and they're wrong? By what measure?*
> 
> ...


Bits in bold above and......

Some muslims want a world without anyone else - so do some christians. The second we employ torture and terror tactics to fight back - we become no better than them. And they then go a step further. There is no end to that process that makes sense. A brief glance at history makes it VERY clear that such an approach makes things exponentially worse.


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## Normsky (Aug 29, 2014)

kuju said:


> Bits in bold above and......
> 
> Some muslims want a world without anyone else - so do some christians. The second we employ torture and terror tactics to fight back - we become no better than them. And they then go a step further. There is no end to that process that makes sense. A brief glance at history makes it VERY clear that such an approach makes things exponentially worse.


It is the moral equivalent of fighting pedophilia by raping the pedophiles children.


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## Ian_Montrose (Nov 13, 2007)

spod said:


> The onus is on you to stop eating those funny mushrooms....:eek:


Or at least bring enough to share with the rest of the class.


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## Frasier Crane (Oct 7, 2014)

kuju said:


> Bits in bold above and......
> 
> Some muslims want a world without anyone else - so do some christians. The second we employ torture and terror tactics to fight back - we become no better than them. And they then go a step further. There is no end to that process that makes sense. A brief glance at history makes it VERY clear that such an approach makes things exponentially worse.


2 Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

There are many variations of Christianity for this very reason, personal interpretation.

The Bible is always the measure by which we are instructed to test ourselves to see if we are truly of the faith.

Deuteronomy 20:10-14

Again, I have covered this before, Jesus came to fulfil the law, which does not mean to carry on in the same way as before.

Its that dirty word again, context, that people refuse to apply or pay and credence to.

Matthew 5:17

Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

This is the common response to imply some contradiction in what I'm stating.

"It is frequently argued that if Jesus did not "abolish" the law, then it must still be binding. Accordingly, such components as the Sabbath-day requirement must be operative still, along with perhaps numerous other elements of the Mosaic Law. This assumption is grounded in a misunderstanding of the words and intent of this passage. Christ did not suggest here that the binding nature of the law of Moses would remain forever in effect. Such a view would contradict everything we learn from the balance of the New Testament (Romans 10:4; Galatians 3:23-25; Ephesians 2:15).

Of special significance in this study is the word rendered "abolish." It translates the Greek term kataluo, literally meaning "to loosen down." The word is found seventeen times in the New Testament. It is used, for example, of the destruction of the Jewish temple by the Romans (Matthew 26:61; 27:40; Acts 6:14), and of the dissolving of the human body at death (2 Corinthians 5:1). The term can carry the extended meaning of "to overthrow," i.e., "to render vain, deprive of success." In classical Greek, it was used in connection with institutions, laws, etc., to convey the idea of "to invalidate."

It is especially important to note how the word is used in Matthew 5:17. In this context, "abolish" is set in opposition to "fulfill." Christ came "...not to abolish, but to fulfill." Jesus did not come to this earth for the purpose of acting as an opponent of the law. His goal was not to prevent its fulfillment. Rather, He revered it, loved it, obeyed it, and brought it to fruition. He fulfilled the law's prophetic utterances regarding Himself (Luke 24:44). Christ fulfilled the demands of the Mosaic law, which called for perfect obedience under threat of a "curse" (see Galatians 3:10, 13). In this sense, the law's divine design will ever have an abiding effect. It will always accomplish the purpose for which it was given.

If, however, the law of Moses bears the same relationship to men today, in terms of its binding status, then it was not fulfilled, and Jesus failed at what He came to do. On the other hand, if the Lord did accomplish His goal, then the law was fulfilled, and it is not a binding legal institution today. Further, if the law of Moses was not fulfilled by Christ-and thus remains as a binding legal system for today-then it is not just partially binding. Rather, it is a totally compelling system. Jesus plainly said that not one "jot or tittle" (representative of the smallest markings of the Hebrew script) would pass away until all was fulfilled. Consequently, nothing of the law was to fail until it had completely accomplished its purpose. Jesus fulfilled the law. Jesus fulfilled all of the law. We cannot say that Jesus fulfilled the sacrificial system, but did not fulfill the other aspects of the law. Jesus either fulfilled all of the law, or none of it. What Jesus' death means for the sacrificial system, it also means for the other aspects of the law"

2)

In theory yes - and yet there are many people and organisations who claim to be Christian who espouse some particularly vile, violent and hateful attitudes towards others. I woudl argue they're not Christian - they would disagree. How do we prove who's right? I'm guessing we can't since it depends on your perspective to start with. Buddhism is unequivocally a religion ...for want of a much better word as Buddhism clearly is NOT an actual religion...let's call it a spiritual path..which does not advocate violence. That doesn't seem to have stopped people killing in it's name.

Of course we can, if the Bible alone is our authority,

Just because I claim to be an aeroplane doesn't make it true, my perspective would have little meaning to you, wouldn't it, because you would clearly see that I was delusional. If people claim to be Christian, its very easy to they're actions against the Bible.


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## Normsky (Aug 29, 2014)

Frasier Crane said:


> 2 Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
> 
> There are many variations of Christianity for this very reason, personal interpretation.
> 
> ...


Dude, you believe in the story of Noah's ark and support the validity of the old testament thus stand by the age of the earth being 6000 years old.

Now if you can do the mental gymnastics required to fit those insane stances into your version of reality do you not think that might say something about your ability to rationally interpret the biblical laws and who they apply to? Especially as your interpretation is not in line with the scholarly consensus?

By the way, why would it make sense for god to want the jews to execute gays but then not want Christians to? Does that not make you question the rationality of your spiritual beliefs?


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## Ian_Montrose (Nov 13, 2007)

For some reason this thread reminds me of:


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## spod (Mar 25, 2010)

PMSL! It's like the old saying - 'never argue with a fool...from a distance people won't be able to tell who's who!'


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## Frasier Crane (Oct 7, 2014)

Ian_Montrose said:


> For some reason this thread reminds me of:


Good effort big lad


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## Frasier Crane (Oct 7, 2014)

spod said:


> PMSL! It's like the old saying - 'never argue with a fool...from a distance people won't be able to tell who's who!'


Pointless comparison to this conversation, as you're not at a distance, you have the same information available to you as I do.

"People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for the freedom of thought which they seldom use."

? Søren Kierkegaard


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## spod (Mar 25, 2010)

Frasier Crane said:


> Pointless comparison to this conversation, as you're not at a distance, you have the same information available to you as I do.
> 
> "People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for the freedom of thought which they seldom use."
> 
> ? Søren Kierkegaard


I'm *definitely* not arguing with you! :rolleye:


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## Frasier Crane (Oct 7, 2014)

Idiots like Normsky want to argue within the Bible regarding context and application to modern times, until it's painfully clear he neither has the education nor understanding to make informed, coherent points against anything stated.

This then leaves him only to bring into question the validity of the book from which he was arguing anyway, making it a pointless endeavour to engage him.


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## no-way (Oct 14, 2012)

BettySwallocks said:


> send a load of Ebola people in to go round spitting on the cvnts.


Haha, well, its not funny (but it is)

I had the same thought process, admittedly on a stag do, very very drunk.

It basically went something like this... Ship ebola carriers to iraq/syria, build an Israel esque wall around the surrounding area. Let the virus take hold, then nuke the whole area.

A flawed plan maybe, but a plan none the less.


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## Frasier Crane (Oct 7, 2014)

spod said:


> I'm *definitely* not arguing with you! :rolleye:


lol I'm not either mate


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## Frasier Crane (Oct 7, 2014)

Normsky said:


> Dude, you believe in the story of Noah's ark and support the validity of the old testament thus stand by the age of the earth being 6000 years old.
> 
> Now if you can do the mental gymnastics required to fit those insane stances into your version of reality do you not think that might say something about your ability to rationally interpret the biblical laws and who they apply to? Especially as your interpretation is not in line with the scholarly consensus?
> 
> By the way, why would it make sense for god to want the jews to execute gays but then not want Christians to? Does that not make you question the rationality of your spiritual beliefs?


You just keep giving and giving, lol

Your first two paragraph can be summarised down to " You're an idiot, you believe in the Old Testament of the Bible, It's a complete fantasy, along with any evidence within the book which implies that the earth is in the area of 6000 years old,

Then in the same breath, if I can perform the " mental gymnastics" required to believe such nonsense about the Old Testament somehow I cant interpret it correctly because I believe what is said in it.

Today is a new level of stupid for you yet again!


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## Normsky (Aug 29, 2014)

Frasier Crane said:


> You just keep giving and giving, lol
> 
> Your first two paragraph can be summarised down to " You're an idiot, you believe in the Old Testament of the Bible, It's a complete fantasy, along with any evidence within the book which implies that the earth is in the area of 6000 years old,
> 
> ...


 The fact you believe in the validity of a book that alleged the earth is 6000 years old and you believe in the story of Noah's ark call into question your ability to think rationally and without bias.

If someone believed the world leaders were all lizards who ate human flesh would you not question their ability to rationally analyze world events? If someone was broke and homeless would you trust them to be proficient as your accountant?

If you can claim that the earth is 6000 years old when we know it is 4.5-4.6 billion years oldhow would we trust other things you claim?


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## Frasier Crane (Oct 7, 2014)

Normsky said:


> The fact you believe in the validity of a book that alleged the earth is 6000 years old and you believe in the story of Noah's ark call into question your ability to think rationally and without bias.
> 
> If someone believed the world leaders were all lizards who ate human flesh would you not question their ability to rationally analyze world events? If someone was broke and homeless would you trust them to be proficient as your accountant?
> 
> If you can claim that the earth is 6000 years old when we know it is 4.5-4.6 billion years oldhow would we trust other things you claim?


You have a tendency to just ignore the points I have highlighted in your basic argumentation.

I never claimed the earth is 6000 years old, I said it suggested it could be in that area. As it is certainly not 100% clear

So explain to me in your own words the method and technique used to determine the true age of the earth lol


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## Normsky (Aug 29, 2014)

Frasier Crane said:


> You have a tendency to just ignore the points I have highlighted in your basic argumentation.
> 
> I never claimed the earth is 6000 years old, I said it suggested it could be in that area. As it is certainly not 100% clear
> 
> So explain to me in your own words the method and technique used to determine the true age of the earth lol


Saying it is around that old is insane! it is 4.5-4.6 billion years old, not in the thousands. This is like talking to someone who believes the earth is flat..............


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## Frasier Crane (Oct 7, 2014)

Normsky said:


> Saying it is around that old is insane! it is 4.5-4.6 billion years old, not in the thousands. This is like talking to someone who believes the earth is flat..............


Insane by what standard?

Yet again you pick and choose what you address, Your comparison between "flat earth" and earth age is utterly asinine.

So please explain to me this infallible technique for determining the true age of the earth or kindly quiet down.


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## saxondale (Nov 11, 2012)

guys, guys - I`m going on holiday next week, any chance you can still be going round in circles when I get back?


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## Frasier Crane (Oct 7, 2014)

saxondale said:


> guys, guys - I`m going on holiday next week, any chance you can still be going round in circles when I get back?


cross my heart:rockon:


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## Normsky (Aug 29, 2014)

Frasier Crane said:


> Insane by what standard?
> 
> Yet again you pick and choose what you address, Your comparison between "flat earth" and earth age is utterly asinine.
> 
> So please explain to me this infallible technique for determining the true age of the earth or kindly quiet down.


 Lets start with the obvious question. Is the earth 4.5-4.6 billion years old? Are all the scientific academia telling lies? If so why?


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## Frasier Crane (Oct 7, 2014)

Normsky said:


> Lets start with the obvious question. Is the earth 4.5-4.6 billion years old? Are all the scientific academia telling lies? If so why?


The obvious question, would be, why you refuse to address my question, but I digress.

However I'll play, My position on your assertion that the earth is 4.5 billion years old is farcical, to put it mildly, as I'm sure you are of a similar thought regarding your assertion over mine, this leaves us quoting science, for and against the accuracy of carbon dating and any other modern technique in support of our assertions. I assure you, there is plenty for both positions.

No, I don't believe their lying, they're just wrong, but you need to understand there are Christians in these fields , who understand the science behind carbon dating and other similar techniques, and will openly admit to the short comings of these methods, much to the annoyance of secular scientists, who would love nothing more, than for Joe Blogs to believe they have the answer for one life's major questions, which, if true, would completely destroy religion, unquestionably.


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## Normsky (Aug 29, 2014)

Frasier Crane said:


> The obvious question, would be, why you refuse to address my question, but I digress.
> 
> However I'll play, My position on your assertion that the earth is 4.5 billion years old is farcical, to put it mildly, as I'm sure you are of a similar thought regarding your assertion over mine, this leaves us quoting science, for and against the accuracy of carbon dating and any other modern technique in support of our assertions. I assure you, there is plenty for both positions.
> 
> No, I don't believe their lying, they're just wrong, but you need to understand there are Christians in these fields , who understand the science behind carbon dating and other similar techniques, and will openly admit to the short comings of these methods, much to the annoyance of secular scientists, who would love nothing more, than for Joe Blogs to believe they have the answer for one life's major questions, which, if true, would completely destroy religion, unquestionably.


The only people who refute carbon dating are Christians and other religious people, because as you say, the existing proof of the age of the planet shows the old testament to be false, thus your religion is proven false. Just like Christians invented intelligent design and all its anti scientific claptrap, they also try and bend science which confronts their faith.


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## essexboy (Sep 7, 2008)

Frasier Crane said:


> The obvious question, would be, why you refuse to address my question, but I digress.
> 
> However I'll play, My position on your assertion that the earth is 4.5 billion years old is farcical, to put it mildly, as I'm sure you are of a similar thought regarding your assertion over mine, this leaves us quoting science, for and against the accuracy of carbon dating and any other modern technique in support of our assertions. I assure you, there is plenty for both positions.
> 
> No, I don't believe their lying, they're just wrong, but you need to understand there are Christians in these fields , who understand the science behind carbon dating and other similar techniques, and will openly admit to the short comings of these methods, much to the annoyance of secular scientists, who would love nothing more, than for Joe Blogs to believe they have the answer for one life's major questions, which, if true, would completely destroy religion, unquestionably.


Please answer my previous post.Or are you unable too?

I have fairies living at the bottom of my garden.Is the onus on me to prove it, or the rest of the world to disprove it?


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## Frasier Crane (Oct 7, 2014)

Normsky said:


> The only people who refute carbon dating are Christians and other religious people, because as you say, the existing proof of the age of the planet shows the old testament to be false, thus your religion is proven false. Just like Christians invented intelligent design and all its anti scientific claptrap, they also try and bend science which confronts their faith.


nothing but emotional conjecture, yet again.


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## Frasier Crane (Oct 7, 2014)

essexboy said:


> Please answer my previous post.Or are you unable too?
> 
> I have fairies living at the bottom of my garden.Is the onus on me to prove it, or the rest of the world to disprove it?


I haven't a vested interest in you, your garden or the possibility of fairies in your garden.

Thanks for contribution :laugh:


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## essexboy (Sep 7, 2008)

Frasier Crane said:


> nothing but emotional conjecture, yet again.


You keep avoiding my question.Ill take it that my simple request has left you unable to compose a response you can rationalise with your nonsense.


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## Frasier Crane (Oct 7, 2014)

essexboy said:


> You keep avoiding my question.Ill take it that my simple request has left you unable to compose a response you can rationalise with your nonsense.


Just look above my friend.


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## spod (Mar 25, 2010)

essexboy said:


> You keep avoiding my question.Ill take it that my simple request has left you unable to compose a response you can rationalise with your nonsense.


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## Frasier Crane (Oct 7, 2014)

spod said:


> View attachment 159906


I think (and I could be wrong) he believes this to be a sound argument, however this is borderline retarded and nothing more than a brain fart of epic proportions, on the other hand, an excellent example of how not to engage in meaningful discussion and the perfect "Straw man logical fallacy"

essexboy I shall rep you hard and long for this Nobel effort, Thank you :clap:


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## essexboy (Sep 7, 2008)

Frasier Crane said:


> I think (and I could be wrong) he believes this to be a sound argument, however this is borderline retarded and nothing more than a brain fart of epic proportions, on the other hand, an excellent example of how not to engage in meaningful discussion and the perfect "Straw man logical fallacy"
> 
> essexboy I shall rep you hard and long for this Nobel effort, Thank you :clap:


Thankyou.I concour that you have no rational response, and shall accept your defeat graciously.


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## Frasier Crane (Oct 7, 2014)

essexboy said:


> Thankyou.I concour that you have no rational response, and shall accept your defeat graciously.


Interesting, understanding of the word " rational"

You win


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## Normsky (Aug 29, 2014)

Frasier Crane said:


> Interesting, understanding of the word " rational"
> 
> You win


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## spod (Mar 25, 2010)

Frasier Crane said:


> I think (and I could be wrong) he believes this to be a sound argument, however this is borderline retarded and nothing more than a brain fart of epic proportions, on the other hand, an excellent example of how not to engage in meaningful discussion and the perfect "Straw man logical fallacy"
> 
> essexboy I shall rep you hard and long for this Nobel effort, Thank you :clap:


You are indeed wrong, but as you make such a habit of it i expected nothing less.

Joined the site this month, has offered nothing but argumentative BS posts - mainly on this thread and most of which i hope he isn't so stupid as to actually believe, and squirms and avoids when people call him out on it.

It's enough to make one wonder if he shares an IP address with any other members. :wacko:


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## Frasier Crane (Oct 7, 2014)

spod said:


> You are indeed wrong, but as you make such a habit of it i expected nothing less.
> 
> Joined the site this month, has offered nothing but argumentative BS posts - mainly on this thread and most of which i hope he isn't so stupid as to actually believe, and squirms and avoids when people call him out on it.
> 
> It's enough to make one wonder if he shares an IP address with any other members. :wacko:


Where have I made a habit of it?


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## Frasier Crane (Oct 7, 2014)

Normsky said:


>


Well, there you go, Richard Dawkins said, I must be wrong


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## Normsky (Aug 29, 2014)

This bunch of mouth breathing bible thumpers really underline the fallacy in the young earth view. The general consensus being we need to ignore scientists because the bible tells us the age and we don't need to defend it because god is infallible


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## Frasier Crane (Oct 7, 2014)

o look, I can do it too, lol


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## Frasier Crane (Oct 7, 2014)




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## Frasier Crane (Oct 7, 2014)




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## Frasier Crane (Oct 7, 2014)




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## Normsky (Aug 29, 2014)

Right but you are posting videos with titles like destroys atheist and its literally someone quoting god as evidence. These people were christians before they started researching these positions. They have extreme conformation bias. Their denial of scientific fact is akin to people who deny the Wansee conference documents were legitimate, they do so because to accept them is to accept crucial evidence of genocide by the Nazi party.

You won't accept any evidence that contradicts your religious faith, thus you are incapable of entering a serious and open debate because your mind is not open to change because of faith, the belief in something without evidence.


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## Frasier Crane (Oct 7, 2014)

Normsky said:


> Right but you are posting videos with titles like destroys atheist and its literally someone quoting god as evidence. These people were christians before they started researching these positions. They have extreme conformation bias. Their denial of scientific fact is akin to people who deny the Wansee conference documents were legitimate, they do so because to accept them is to accept crucial evidence of genocide by the Nazi party.
> 
> You won't accept any evidence that contradicts your religious faith, thus you are incapable of entering a serious and open debate because your mind is not open to change because of faith, the belief in something without evidence.


You clown, there are plenty of secular scientists who after exploring the evidence converted to Christianity, so are they bias too?

You really thought science had it all explained I bet, Its difficult, I'm sure when you realise that this is nothing more than wishful thinking on your part.

You lost the contextual Bible debate, then attack the authenticity of the Bible when you realise you're talking out your ****,

Atheists have been getting their asses handed to them, quite regularly now, along with you, I might add, since Christian Apologetics has become more popular.

Do yourself a favour and study a bit before you attempt to take on such a large subject, I'm afraid Google done you no favours this time, other than give you a false sense of knowledge and understanding.


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## Normsky (Aug 29, 2014)

Frasier Crane said:


> You clown, there are plenty of secular scientists who after exploring the evidence converted to Christianity, so are they bias too?
> 
> You really thought science had it all explained I bet, Its difficult, I'm sure when you realise that this is nothing more than wishful thinking on your part.
> 
> ...


Yes, all those brilliant secular scientists flocking to christianity and the notion of a 6000 year old planet. Are you really this insane? I mean even the holocaust deniers know they are full of ****, they know it happened they just hate jews enough to try and deny the attempted destruction of a race and remove a raodblock to recruitment of respectable bigots into their movement.

Surely you know that there is evidence for the actual age of the earth. Surely you know the overwhelming fact of evolution. Surely you are not this ignorant?


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## Frasier Crane (Oct 7, 2014)

Normsky said:


> Yes, all those brilliant secular scientists flocking to christianity and the notion of a 6000 year old planet. Are you really this insane? I mean even the holocaust deniers know they are full of ****, they know it happened they just hate jews enough to try and deny the attempted destruction of a race and remove a raodblock to recruitment of respectable bigots into their movement.
> 
> Surely you know that there is evidence for the actual age of the earth. Surely you know the overwhelming fact of evolution. Surely you are not this ignorant?


Repeating the same drivel over and over again does nothing for this discussion, I have put plenty of questions to you that you have decided to ignore.

I wont even address the rest of your first paragraph it's utterly pathetic with no logical comparison.

You have presented nothing but emotional rhetoric through out this thread which shows me you're not intellectually equipped to be having a discussion of this nature .

I would still be happy to debate with anyone else, however Normsky we will not be taking our " debate " any further


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## Normsky (Aug 29, 2014)

Frasier Crane said:


> Repeating the same drivel over and over again does nothing for this discussion, I have put plenty of questions to you that you have decided to ignore.
> 
> I wont even address the rest of your first paragraph it's utterly pathetic with no logical comparison.
> 
> ...


 It is impossible to have a debate because you deny basic proven scientific truths. It is like someone asking for a debate on ww2 but denying Germany invaded Poland and refusing to accept Britain was a member of the Allies.

Unless things that are proven as fact are accepted as such there can be no debate or discussion, there can only be me talking to a person who refuses to accept basic reality and thus the framework for rational communication.


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## kuju (Sep 15, 2010)

Frasier Crane said:


> 2 Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
> 
> There are many variations of Christianity for this very reason, personal interpretation.
> 
> ...


Thank you - that and the whole context thing - was basically my point....... You can find passages in all religious texts that espouse violence for a variety of utterly hair brained reasons; but the central message of the bible, the koran, the torah - is love. Christian extremists are as bad as Islamic extremists....or indeed any other flavour of extremism....because the religion employed as the excuse for those actions is utterly irrelevant.

You say - take the Bible as your authority; but what about when people do exactly that in order to justify utterly vile behaviour? Is the bible at fault? Is the religion at fault? Or is it just a thoroughly unpleasant human being using whatever excuse they can find that fits their needs.

You claim your interpretation of teh Bible is the "right" one. So do they. I know many Muslims who decry the actions of Islamic extremists and claim they do not represent Islam and that their interpretation of the Koran is "wrong".

Faith...as a personal thing that provides succour and strength to those who believe and even more so when it prompts acts of humanity... is a wonderful thing, Religion; for me, is the process of taking that faith and using it to control people. I fail to see how that could ever be a good thing. But maybe that's just me.

My point remains - bad people do bad things and seek to excuse it. Whether it's a single person or an entire group. The process is the same. Religion is one of those excuses.


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## Frasier Crane (Oct 7, 2014)

kuju said:


> Thank you - that and the whole context thing - was basically my point....... You can find passages in all religious texts that espouse violence for a variety of utterly hair brained reasons; but the central message of the bible, the koran, the torah - is love. Christian extremists are as bad as Islamic extremists....or indeed any other flavour of extremism....because the religion employed as the excuse for those actions is utterly irrelevant.
> 
> You say - take the Bible as your authority; but what about when people do exactly that in order to justify utterly vile behaviour? Is the bible at fault? Is the religion at fault? Or is it just a thoroughly unpleasant human being using whatever excuse they can find that fits their needs.
> 
> ...


I think one of the main issue's is, until we begin to acknowledge the distinctions between the 3 largest religions, it's difficult to find common ground on which to have a discussion.

I also agree with you completely, extremism as it relates to Christianity is totally unacceptable and unwarranted and is contrary to Jesus as the fulfilment of the Old Mosaic Law.

Another problem I see, Muslim scholars limit their condemnation of groups like ISIS, Boko Haram, and Al Qaeda, to political extremism but fail to bring up the Theological backing which props these groups up and thoroughly supports the ideology of Jihad against the unbelievers, because to do so would contradict the teachings of the Koran.

There's a massive reluctance to address the actual passages of the Koran and Hadith with validate "extremism" and offer no other context in which they can be interpreted.

Yet people still, claim love and peace.


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## essexboy (Sep 7, 2008)

Frasier Crane said:


> I think one of the main issue's is, until we begin to acknowledge the distinctions between the 3 largest religions, it's difficult to find common ground on which to have a discussion.
> 
> I also agree with you completely, extremism as it relates to Christianity is totally unacceptable and unwarranted and is contrary to Jesus as the fulfilment of the Old Mosaic Law.
> 
> ...


What other aspects of science do you dispute? Do you drive a car, receive healthcare? Watch television,I bet you own a mobile phone. Or do you just dismiss those parts which dont happen to be congruent with your agenda?


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## r33-tom (Jul 7, 2014)

Think I'll stick to being agnostic.

Easy life.


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## Frasier Crane (Oct 7, 2014)

essexboy said:


> What other aspects of science do you dispute? Do you drive a car, receive healthcare? Watch television,I bet you own a mobile phone. Or do you just dismiss those parts which dont happen to be congruent with your agenda?


The Adults are talking now.


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## PD89 (Mar 27, 2014)

People believing in fairy tales again? Thought this was the age of reason.


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## Frasier Crane (Oct 7, 2014)

PD89 said:


> People believing in fairy tales again? Thought this was the age of reason.


stick to the gym mate!


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## PD89 (Mar 27, 2014)

Frasier Crane said:


> stick to the gym mate!


The gym is my chapel.


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## EpicSquats (Mar 29, 2014)

PD89 said:


> People believing in fairy tales again? Thought this was the age of reason.


Whatever gave you that idea? All the evidence points to people being as mad as ever.


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## PD89 (Mar 27, 2014)

EpicSquats said:


> Whatever gave you that idea? All the evidence points to people being as mad as ever.


I hadn't seen a religious debate on uk-m for a day or two so I assumed the penny had finally dropped... I was wrong.


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## Normsky (Aug 29, 2014)

Paleo and religion both have the same problem.






around 1.00


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## Frasier Crane (Oct 7, 2014)

PD89 said:


> The gym is my chapel.


Excellent news


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## essexboy (Sep 7, 2008)

Frasier Crane said:


> The Adults are talking now.


This is becoming too easy.At least try and defend your position.You debated ad infinitum with previous members, exploring theology.Me, you havent got any answers for.I had anticipated it though The Fairies told me so.


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## Frasier Crane (Oct 7, 2014)

essexboy said:


> This is becoming too easy.At least try and defend your position.You debated ad infinitum with previous members, exploring theology.Me, you havent got any answers for.I had anticipated it though The Fairies told me so.


Nothing personal mate, but your original argument in this discussion was nothing more than a straw man.

The fact that you don't acknowledge this automatically relegates you to my " Not worth the effort category "

Life is Short


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## essexboy (Sep 7, 2008)

Frasier Crane said:


> Nothing personal mate, but your original argument in this discussion was nothing more than a straw man.
> 
> The fact that you don't acknowledge this automatically relegates you to my " Not worth the effort category "
> 
> Life is Short


I win again.That makes a hatrick.


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## Normsky (Aug 29, 2014)

Frasier Crane said:


> Nothing personal mate, but your original argument in this discussion was nothing more than a straw man.
> 
> The fact that you don't acknowledge this automatically relegates you to my " Not worth the effort category "
> 
> Life is Short


Why do you take selfies in the mirror, isn't there some stuff in the bible discouraging vanity?


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## Normsky (Aug 29, 2014)

If god did exist it would be necessary to abolish him.


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## lostwars (Nov 7, 2008)

MFM said:


> People who say it's not through Islam that all this is happening, well it certainly isn't because of any other religion. I feel sorry for all the genuine Muslims but people who say it's only 'a few bad apples' are clearly deluded. There are thousands, if not millions of Muslims who still live in the dark ages and believe all the tripe that groups like ISIS are spouting.
> 
> I've said this before. If I was a Christian, and Christians started behaving like this, I would bid them farewell and either take up another religion or become an atheist. It's too convenient to say, "But I don't stand for that and they don't represent Islam". Of course they are representing Islam, so you're part of the problem, like it or not.


reading your posts you really do have a 10yr olds political outlook

ISIS are killing muslims very few christians are dumb enough to stay in iraq or syria cause they know there walking dead if them fruits catch them

you do know the above countries have large christian communties?

there are several arab armies bombing ISIS along with the west at present and turkeys lack of intervention is self presevation bc they have a huge amount of kurds living there, maybe a third of the population and, id think theyd rather face down a kurdish revolt than face ISIS

they are willing to let the ppl of kobani die, the kurds who have stayed there are heroic and deserve all the support they need to inflict a serious loss on these fcukers

anyone who thinks ISIS are going to be defeated in a wk or two with ground forces are not following the situation closely, they are attempting to take baghdad while, at the same time hold key towns in both syria and iraq, theres thousands of them


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## lostwars (Nov 7, 2008)

Frasier Crane said:


> You're confused, any sources on chemical and nail bombs being used by Israel? Ethnically cleanse......... are you for real?


What about carpet bombing the most densly populated area in the world?

restricting movement of ppl to and from the west bank to gaza and building a wall that makes the berlin wall look like a fence

what about the attitude to black immigrants into the country, deplorable..

there attitude to black jewish born in africa who come to live in israel, enforced neutering programs

i believe in a country called israel but the ppl at the helm are racist paranoid and are the biggest risk to world peace after ISIS


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## Normsky (Aug 29, 2014)

lostwars said:


> What about carpet bombing the most densly populated area in the world?
> 
> restricting movement of ppl to and from the west bank to gaza and building a wall that makes the berlin wall look like a fence
> 
> ...


Israel has never used chemical attacks. Listing a bunch of other stuff they may or may not have done is not relevant. I understand why you would criticize policies of the Israeli state like you would any other state but when people do things like claim chemical attacks and then when challenged bring up other things it starts to smell of an exceptionalist critique bordering on anti semitism.


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## skipper1987 (May 1, 2013)

Normsky said:


> If god did exist it would be necessary to abolish him.


Now paint a picture of Allah and watch the anger fly!!!


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## Normsky (Aug 29, 2014)

skipper1987 said:


> Now paint a picture of Allah and watch the anger fly!!!


You are thinking of Mohammed and ok! And there is nothing in the bible about depicting jesus so why would Christians be mad, there are rules against depicting the prophet, just different rules in two dumb books.


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## lostwars (Nov 7, 2008)

Normsky said:


> Israel has never used chemical attacks. Listing a bunch of other stuff they may or may not have done is not relevant. I understand why you would criticize policies of the Israeli state like you would any other state but when people do things like claim chemical attacks and then when challenged bring up other things it starts to smell of an exceptionalist critique bordering on anti semitism.


think you quoted the wrong post a chara, i didnt accuse israel of using chemical weapons, nor am i anti semitic ive no problems with the ordinary ppl of the jewish faith ive a problem with zionists fcuking up the world though


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## Normsky (Aug 29, 2014)

lostwars said:


> think you quoted the wrong post a chara, i didnt accuse israel of using chemical weapons, nor am i anti semitic ive no problems with the ordinary ppl of the jewish faith ive a problem with zionists fcuking up the world though


How are zionists ****ing up the world, the ridiculous conspiracy that zionists control western governments is dumb, Israel is a small isolated nation that is largely controlled by U.S hegemony and influence and funding.

Anti semitism has at its core scapegoating jews by accusing them of being in a zionist conspiracy to dominate the world. How has zionism even impacted the world apart from a very particular and isolated case aka Israel v Palestine? British and American imperialism have killed millions and yet you are focused on Zionism a moveemnt that was based on finding a homeland for the jews who were being slaughtered in Europe and the middle east for centuries?

Sounds kinda anti semitic.


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## SickCurrent (Sep 19, 2005)




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