# Favourite shoulder mass builders ??



## SirL (Jan 10, 2013)

If you had to pick 4 shoulder movements to do what would they be ?


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## Mingster (Mar 25, 2011)

Bench Press.

Any side and rear isolations.


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## eezy1 (Dec 14, 2010)

prefer bar when it comes to shoulder press, reverse flies for rear, cable side laterals for meds

only need 3


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## theBEAST2002 (Oct 16, 2011)

in the off season i like to use push press, seated lateral raise, single cable lateral raise concerntrating on the negitive and face pulls using high reps and focusing on the squeeze.


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## JANIKvonD (Jul 7, 2011)

Mingster said:


> Bench Press.
> 
> Any side and rear isolations.


do u do any shoulder pressing at all ming?


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## ClarkyBoy (Sep 24, 2012)

Db press, front raise, lateral raise, rear flies. Simples.


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## BBaddict (Dec 2, 2008)

Press,

Lat raises,

Rear fly's,

The base of all my shoulder workouts


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## Mingster (Mar 25, 2011)

JANIKvonD said:


> do u do any shoulder pressing at all ming?


Not for the last year.

Two weeks ago I introduced two sets of Tony Freeman style DB Presses where you do 5 reps with both arms, followed by 5 reps with one arm only followed by 5 reps with the other arm, and finishing with a final 5 reps with both arms again for 20 reps in total. Only using the 22.5kg bells at present for these.


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## Xbigdave79 (Mar 30, 2012)

Mingster said:


> Not for the last year.
> 
> Two weeks ago I introduced two sets of Tony Freeman style DB Presses where you do 5 reps with both arms, followed by 5 reps with one arm only followed by 5 reps with the other arm, and finishing with a final 5 reps with both arms again for 20 reps in total. Only using the 22.5kg bells at present for these.


I haven't done much shoulder pressing for he last year , but have just started doing 3 sets of landline presses ,

After back , they are very shoulder friendly ,I'm only going light at he moment I seem to get more up of them light weights high reps


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## Goosh (Jun 24, 2012)

ClarkyBoy said:


> Db press, front raise, lateral raise, rear flies. Simples.


This


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## JANIKvonD (Jul 7, 2011)

Mingster said:


> Not for the last year.
> 
> Two weeks ago I introduced two sets of Tony Freeman style DB Presses where you do 5 reps with both arms, followed by 5 reps with one arm only followed by 5 reps with the other arm, and finishing with a final 5 reps with both arms again for 20 reps in total. Only using the 22.5kg bells at present for these.


is that just on the flat?...i've merged chest & delts into 1 day now & taken shoulder press out....going well i must say!

cheers mate


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## Mingster (Mar 25, 2011)

JANIKvonD said:


> is that just on the flat?...i've merged chest & delts into 1 day now & taken shoulder press out....going well i must say!
> 
> cheers mate


Here's someone you might know doing something similar...






If you are benching I don't believe you need any other shoulder work save side and rear laterals/facepulls tbh...


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## JANIKvonD (Jul 7, 2011)

Mingster said:


> Here's someone you might know doing something similar...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


ahhhhh gotcha...i thought u meant doing this flat on a bench lol, looks good (pitty bout the face @Pscarb). i do high incline db press/ slight decline bb press/ side db raises/ bb front raises & dips....delts are totally fried after this. do rear delts on back day.

cheers for info mate...gonna have a deeper gander into this tony freeman style


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## Mingster (Mar 25, 2011)

JANIKvonD said:


> ahhhhh gotcha...i thought u meant doing this flat on a bench lol, looks good (pitty bout the face @Pscarb). i do high incline db press/ slight decline bb press/ side db raises/ bb front raises & dips....delts are totally fried after this. do rear delts on back day.
> 
> cheers for info mate...gonna have a deeper gander into this tony freeman style


It's not intended as a mass builder as such, more a way of upping training intensity without overloading the shoulder joint. On Push days I'll do a half hour or so of benching, then a couple of sets of CGBP and the same with Flyes. Then I'll do these Presses as a transitional movement into shoulders, before finishing off with a couple of sets each of Side and Rear Laterals.


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## Fletch68 (Mar 17, 2013)

Military Press for me. A great mass builder.


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## simonthepieman (Jun 11, 2012)

too many people missing out facepulls for my liking


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## boxinmetx (Sep 30, 2012)

JANIKvonD said:


> is that just on the flat?...i've merged chest & delts into 1 day now & taken shoulder press out....going well i must say!
> 
> cheers mate


hey i was doing each muscle group once a week and decided to switch to twice a week, i tried shoulder, chest and tris on the same day but i just didn't have the strength or energy to do a decent shoulder work out, i train trap s with shoulders, switched to traps with back but still couldn't do it, do you get used to it over time or is it conditioning or something??


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## boxinmetx (Sep 30, 2012)

what is a face pull??? at the moment i do either seated barbell press or dumbells and seated laterals and real laterals, or sometimes rear laterals with military press supersets with upright rows, kind of not sure where to go with delts at the moment, just trying to figure out what works best, so new exercises are welcome 



simonthepieman said:


> too many people missing out facepulls for my liking


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## boxinmetx (Sep 30, 2012)

Mingster said:


> Here's someone you might know doing something similar...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


over the years what do you say was the best exercise for your shoulder development?? for example i see a lot of ppl say i don't train to failure now as i believe it isn't optimal, but they spent the previous 5 years or more doing nothing but training to failure and have great physiques?? just wondering if you think you could have got to where you are with out shoulder presses?? thanks


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## JANIKvonD (Jul 7, 2011)

boxinmetx said:


> hey i was doing each muscle group once a week and decided to switch to twice a week, i tried shoulder, chest and tris on the same day but i just didn't have the strength or energy to do a decent shoulder work out, i train trap s with shoulders, switched to traps with back but still couldn't do it, do you get used to it over time or is it conditioning or something??


front delts take enough while pressing mate so by the end of my chest sesh i just finish them off with some raises & there totally fuked, do rear delts with back. obv the weights will be down but it doesnt mean less growth.....depends what your goals are imo...size or strength. main reason i merged them is my front delts were overshaddowing my chest & by the time it came to chest day i was still fuked from a seperate shoulder sesh threw the week. delts are still growing well but my chest has exploded size & strength wise with the extra rest.

once every 2-3 week ill do a bit of heavy clean & press before legs to keep the feel of it......but i just make this sh!t up as i go tbh lol


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## RowRow (Nov 17, 2011)

Seated dumbbell presses, medium grip

Upright rows, heavy laterals and face pulls for me.


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## Mingster (Mar 25, 2011)

boxinmetx said:


> over the years what do you say was the best exercise for your shoulder development?? for example i see a lot of ppl say i don't train to failure now as i believe it isn't optimal, but they spent the previous 5 years or more doing nothing but training to failure and have great physiques?? just wondering if you think you could have got to where you are with out shoulder presses?? thanks


Well, bearing in mind that this is just my opinion based on my training experience, and isn't necessarily the way forward for everyone...

Bench Pressing is the number one front delt developer. The heaviest weights are used with this exercise. Yes, OHP variants hot the delts but, again, mostly the front delt as very, very few trainers sit/stand in a strict, upright position when doing these exercises and therefore reduce side delt involvement greatly. Less weight is used with OHP, hence less development.

Because most trainers Bench and do OHP they usually have overdeveloped front delts in relation to their side and rear delts. The only way to correct this imbalance is to isolate these areas with side laterals, and rear laterals/face pulls, although the rear delts can also be worked with some modified rowing actions.

About 18 months ago I decided to correct this imbalance as it was causing problems with my lifting. I dropped OHP entirely and focused on isolation work for my side and rear delt heads. I actually dropped bench pressing as well, and didn't lose any size in my delts. My main chest/delt/tricep builder during this period was heavy, weighted dips.

I'm not a bodybuilder, I was a powerlifter, so have not needed to specialise in a OHP movement. I have done various OHP lifts over the years. But, in answer to your question, yes, I do think you can develop your delts without a OHP type of exercise although I suspect I may be in the minority to say so


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## boxinmetx (Sep 30, 2012)

Mingster said:


> Well, bearing in mind that this is just my opinion based on my training experience, and isn't necessarily the way forward for everyone...
> 
> Bench Pressing is the number one front delt developer. The heaviest weights are used with this exercise. Yes, OHP variants hot the delts but, again, mostly the front delt as very, very few trainers sit/stand in a strict, upright position when doing these exercises and therefore reduce side delt involvement greatly. Less weight is used with OHP, hence less development.
> 
> ...


Hy thanks for the help and reply, really appreciate it  i think i'll give it 3 moths or so with out pressing to see how it go's it makes sense that ppl might say you need to do it as it is a sort of ego lift, but i get sore joints from it and i can't go as heavy as i like, some weeks i drop the weight by 30kg and that is reverse progression  i'll watch a few vid's to see if my lateral technique is up to scratch i normally use it seated and do a drop set at the end but i'll get the form down and then have a blast for a period that will be noticeable ..thanks for the help and advice  btw u look in great shape!


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## boxinmetx (Sep 30, 2012)

JANIKvonD said:


> front delts take enough while pressing mate so by the end of my chest sesh i just finish them off with some raises & there totally fuked, do rear delts with back. obv the weights will be down but it doesnt mean less growth.....depends what your goals are imo...size or strength. main reason i merged them is my front delts were overshaddowing my chest & by the time it came to chest day i was still fuked from a seperate shoulder sesh threw the week. delts are still growing well but my chest has exploded size & strength wise with the extra rest.
> 
> once every 2-3 week ill do a bit of heavy clean & press before legs to keep the feel of it......but i just make this sh!t up as i go tbh lol


thanks, i'll try the same, iv'e always thought my front and rear delts are bigger than the medial and assumed they must be growing from the heavy benching and rowing so i need heavy work for the medial delts because they lagged behind, i only did some laterals at the end, usually a drop set or two, thanks i'm goin to try what u suggested but try and focus on them with laterals after chest, maybe some upright rows...thanks


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## boxinmetx (Sep 30, 2012)

chilisi said:


> You have a number of muscles in the shoulder for them to look impressive, so you need to hit a few exercises IMO. There's no " best" exercise.


i noticed my medial delts lag behind the posterior and rear delts, and assumed it was because of the heavy benching and rows so automatically thought i need to go heavy with OHP...and i always hear the best over all mass builders but it hasn't been great, i'm going to try doing shoulders after chest again but do laterals and focus on the medials..thanks  might solve my shoulder pains too


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## simonthepieman (Jun 11, 2012)

boxinmetx said:


> what is a face pull??? at the moment i do either seated barbell press or dumbells and seated laterals and real laterals, or sometimes rear laterals with military press supersets with upright rows, kind of not sure where to go with delts at the moment, just trying to figure out what works best, so new exercises are welcome


youtube is your friend. Definitely worth checking out. Apparently they are great for shoulder health and injury prevention in heavy pressing too. In fact, i don't do them enough either


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## ducky699 (Jul 23, 2012)

Mingster said:


> Here's someone you might know doing something similar...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


looks painful mate....trying them next week


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## MattGriff (Aug 21, 2012)

Push Press - any freeweight/strongman kit variety

Dips

Bench varieties

Rear delt stuff for health


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

JANIKvonD said:


> (pitty bout the face @Pscarb).


yea i know but you will master it as it is a side effect of training hard 



simonthepieman said:


> too many people missing out facepulls for my liking


why? face pulls hit the rear delt certainly not a mass builder



boxinmetx said:


> over the years what do you say was the best exercise for your shoulder development?? for example i see alot of ppl say i don't train to failure now as i believe it isn't optimal, but they spent the previous 5 years or more doing nothing but training to failure and have great physiques?? just wondering if you think you could have got to where you are without shoulder presses?? thanks


there is no one exercise for most (there are a few lucky ones though) that will grow the whole shoulder, a good set of shoulders should look good from the front/side/rear for me ones that have helped develop my shoulders to what they are now are

Dead press/DB press

Side raise

Rear delt exercise

you do these exercises with 100% intensity along with a good diet and plenty of rest u will grow.


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## simonthepieman (Jun 11, 2012)

Pscarb said:


> yea i know but you will master it as it is a side effect of training hard
> 
> why? face pulls hit the rear delt certainly not a mass builder
> 
> ...


Facepulls are suprisingly good at both Side and rear delts, whilst very little front delt.. I agree with Wendler that a head BB press and facepulls are the best way to hit all three heads.

For a lot of people like me, your side delts will piggy back your traps and not get worked well with side raises.


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

simonthepieman said:


> Facepulls are suprisingly good at both Side and rear delts, whilst very little front delt.. I agree with Wendler that a head BB press and facepulls are the best way to hit all three heads.
> 
> For a lot of people like me, your side delts will piggy back your traps and not get worked well with side raises.


only if you do the movement incorrectly and lead with your hands and not your elbow.......classic mistake

face pulls are a great exercise without doubt but they do very little for the side delt and again if not done correctly will hit the trap more than the rear delts....in my experience people use far to much weight


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## boxinmetx (Sep 30, 2012)

Pscarb said:


> yea i know but you will master it as it is a side effect of training hard
> 
> why? face pulls hit the rear delt certainly not a mass builder
> 
> ...


Awesome thanks fro the advice  i think i'll add a days training and do shoulders, tri's and traps on a day of their own instead of with chest so i can give it 100% cheers


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## lickatsplit (Aug 21, 2012)

arnold press, rear flys, frontal raises and military press


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## JANIKvonD (Jul 7, 2011)

Pscarb said:


> yea i know but you will master it as* it is a side effect of training hard *
> 
> .


looks like ill be lumbered with this beautiful face forever then lol


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## 1010AD (May 30, 2009)

simonthepieman said:


> too many people missing out facepulls for my liking


Excellent move, lot of people do give me funny looks when i do them though, like their not sure what i'm doing. I like them coz you can go quite heavy with them if needed.


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## simonthepieman (Jun 11, 2012)

Pscarb said:


> only if you do the movement incorrectly and lead with your hands and not your elbow.......classic mistake
> 
> face pulls are a great exercise without doubt but they do very little for the side delt and again if not done correctly will hit the trap more than the rear delts....in my experience people use far to much weight


are you talking about side raises with the first bit. I'd be keen to know more if so as i've all put dropped these because they are so ineffective


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

simonthepieman said:


> are you talking about side raises with the first bit. I'd be keen to know more if so as i've all put dropped these because they are so ineffective


yes, many when doing side raises firstly use to heavy DB's then because of this they lead with there hands which takes the emphasis off the side delt.

the raise should be carried out as if you are leading with the elbow so your hand should never be higher than your elbow, many would need to drop the weight which is the kicker that most will not do....


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## stone14 (Mar 24, 2005)

over head barbell press for shoulder imo. 2nd to that is smith machine shoulder press


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## a.notherguy (Nov 17, 2008)

Pscarb said:


> yes, many when doing side raises firstly use to heavy DB's then because of this they lead with there hands which takes the emphasis off the side delt.
> 
> the raise should be carried out as if you are leading with the elbow so your hand should never be higher than your elbow, many would need to drop the weight which is the kicker that most will not do....


i find that if i have a 90° bend at my elbow it makes it impossible to lead with my hands and i feel it in my medial delts alot more


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## Ash1981 (Jun 16, 2009)

Pscarb said:


> yea i know but you will master it as it is a side effect of training hard
> 
> why? face pulls hit the rear delt certainly not a mass builder
> 
> ...


What sort of rep range would you say is optimal with sides and rears Paul?


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

ash1981 said:


> What sort of rep range would you say is optimal with sides and rears Paul?


all my exercises have a 8-10 rep range i find this the best for muscle building maybe not for strength but to be honest i do not care what i can lift as long as i lift as much as i can for that rep range...


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## golfgttdi (Oct 6, 2010)

Pscarb someone mentioned keeping a full 90' bend at arms during lateral raises? What's your opinion on this?

I would've thought your short changing yourself by not holding the weight out at arms length, but now I'm thinking if it does help isolate the side delts over the traps etc it might be worth trying?


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## Ash1981 (Jun 16, 2009)

Pscarb said:


> all my exercises have a 8-10 rep range i find this the best for muscle building maybe not for strength but to be honest i do not care what i can lift as long as i lift as much as i can for that rep range...


I'm not interested in strength, just size


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

ash1981 said:


> I'm not interested in strength, just size


then you have the answer buddy....8-10


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## Ash1981 (Jun 16, 2009)

Pscarb said:


> then you have the answer buddy....8-10


What sort of rep ranges do you use for your big lifts then bud?


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

golfgttdi said:


> Pscarb someone mentioned keeping a full 90' bend at arms during lateral raises? What's your opinion on this?
> 
> I would've thought your short changing yourself by not holding the weight out at arms length, but now I'm thinking if it does help isolate the side delts over the traps etc it might be worth trying?


i keep a slight bend in the arm, think of it like this.....put your arms by your side as if your hand is in your pocket you will have a slight bend in the arm to do this....that is what i advise



ash1981 said:


> What sort of rep ranges do you use for your big lifts then bud?


8-10 mate


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

Pscarb said:


> yes, many when doing side raises firstly use to heavy DB's then because of this they lead with there hands which takes the emphasis off the side delt.
> 
> the raise should be carried out as if you are leading with the elbow so your hand should never be higher than your elbow, many would need to drop the weight which is the kicker that most will not do....


I agree, focus on what the elbow does and it makes a big difference for delt exercises... similar with back and chest movements, if you focus on how the upper arm and elbow moves relative to the upper body then that's 90% of it there and then.

With delt presses one thing I very rarely do now is lock out - I usually start the press as low on my shoulders as possible, and press up for two thirds of the full ROM only, avoiding the last 1/3rd which is mostly all triceps. Changing to doing this makes it a lot more fatiguing on the delts, but works a lot better for hypertrophy.


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## infernal0988 (Jun 16, 2011)

love the good old fashion dumbells presses for putting mass on loads of others as well, for rear delts love training rear delts idk what you call them in english but reverse dumbell flies ?


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

infernal0988 said:


> love the good old fashion dumbells presses for putting mass on loads of others as well, for rear delts love training rear delts idk what you call them in english but reverse dumbell flies ?


Technically a reverse or rear delt flye is performed lying face down on a bench, while a reverse/rear delt/bentover lateral is performed free-standing and simply bent over at the waist.... many people muddle the names up though.

I get on really well with just straight bent over laterals, my rear delts respond very well to them, especially at medium-high reps (10-20 per set).


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## infernal0988 (Jun 16, 2011)

dtlv said:


> Technically a reverse or rear delt flye is performed lying face down on a bench, while a reverse/rear delt/bentover lateral is performed free-standing and simply bent over at the waist.... many people muddle the names up though.
> 
> I get on really well with just straight bent over laterals, my rear delts respond very well to them, especially at medium-high reps (10-20 per set).


yeah thats the name of them i do about 3-4 sets of them 15-20 reps.


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## icamero1 (Jul 3, 2009)

i started doing standing military presses in the squat rack, puts a bit of strain on lower back but really works my shoulders, even at 60kg


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## smithy33 (Apr 2, 2013)

i like the overhead dumbell, barbell presses but think cables are great for raises, upright rows are good aswell


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## eezy1 (Dec 14, 2010)

i used to go too heavy doing face pulls. now i do them at the end of my shoulder sesh after reverse flies usually. i go lighter and hold every rep for a second

find facepulls a good lil warm up before benching aswell


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## DeadlyCoobra (Oct 16, 2011)

Never done them much before now but starting to like cleans and presses, clean gets the rear delts a bit and mids and obviously the press will get the fronts. I dont do them like olympic lifters though and drop to the ground when i clean, dont start from the floor either. Normally put the safety bars in so i don't really drop that low or bring legs / back into it. This may be a terrible idea, noone advised me to do it i just decided to try it! but anything that hits rear delts is good in my books! cant hit those buggers enough!


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

Clean and press is a lovely exercise, nice and efficient way to hit the traps and delts together and to help build explosive power. I do them as a main exercise when my workouts are very abbreviated.


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## MattGriff (Aug 21, 2012)

icamero1 said:


> i started doing standing military presses in the squat rack, puts a bit of strain on lower back but really works my shoulders, even at 60kg


You are making the classic leaning back mistake to put your hips under the bar to balance which shows a weak core.

Look at diagram one in the jerk line - this is how you rack a weight to press it


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## Ash1981 (Jun 16, 2009)

@Pscarb would you do those rear/side delt exercises if you were starting off trying to get big?

Or would you go all out compound mate?


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

ash1981 said:


> @Pscarb would you do those rear/side delt exercises if you were starting off trying to get big?
> 
> Or would you go all out compound mate?


i would do a mix of the two compounds should make up the majority of the workout but i have yet to see guys build a 3D looking set of shoulders from just pressing a combination is always good in my opinion


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## Kimball (Feb 26, 2012)

Pscarb said:


> yes, many when doing side raises firstly use to heavy DB's then because of this they lead with there hands which takes the emphasis off the side delt.
> 
> the raise should be carried out as if you are leading with the elbow so your hand should never be higher than your elbow, many would need to drop the weight which is the kicker that most will not do....


Interesting, so out of interest as actual comparisons are impossible, what sort of weights would you use for side raises.

I'm pushing the weight as high as I can and probably getting it all wrong


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

Kimball said:


> Interesting, so out of interest as actual comparisons are impossible, what sort of weights would you use for side raises.
> 
> I'm pushing the weight as high as I can and probably getting it all wrong


i use 17.5-20kg DB's for side raise


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## Xbigdave79 (Mar 30, 2012)

ash1981 said:


> I'm not interested in strength, just size


The is an great article on tnation called shoulders the moutain dog way ,some very interesting points in it


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## Kimball (Feb 26, 2012)

Pscarb said:


> i use 17.5-20kg DB's for side raise


Lol, yes I am then, exactly what I'm using, and it hurts!!! Ill drop it down 5.

I'm trying to drop as much ego lifting as I can, it's hard in a gym full of skinny spice lifters!


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## icamero1 (Jul 3, 2009)

MattGriff said:


> You are making the classic leaning back mistake to put your hips under the bar to balance which shows a weak core.
> 
> Look at diagram one in the jerk line - this is how you rack a weight to press it
> 
> View attachment 116394


I get it, i need to lean forward to keep the emphasis on my shoulders and not transfer the wieght onto my lower back . cheers


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## rsd147 (Nov 14, 2012)

Military Press

Upright Rows

Side Raises

Rear Delt Raises


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## MattGriff (Aug 21, 2012)

icamero1 said:


> I get it, i need to lean forward to keep the emphasis on my shoulders and not transfer the wieght onto my lower back . cheers


No, you won't hold the bar if you 'lean forward'.

You tighten your lower back and place your hips in the natural position to move backwards - although 99% of gym users and bodybuilders have no clue about this.


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## MattGriff (Aug 21, 2012)

Pscarb said:


> i would do a mix of the two compounds should make up the majority of the workout but i have yet to see guys build a 3D looking set of shoulders from just pressing a combination is always good in my opinion


This is predominantly down to how bodybuilders press; they press in front of them.

Strongmen and Weightlifters press up then back as they are standing up, this places the weight directly over the hips i.e. the strongest position - not something that is an issue with the seated presses as they use the back rest for support. This engages the whole shoulder, traps and triceps in one motion (the body being designed to work as a unit after all)

When they are sufficiently lean I have seen some real boulder shoulders from little but basic pressing in the strength community (note, I am not an example as I am a gash overhead presser), there may be the odd lateral or facepull done but certainly nothing close to every 'shoulder' workout

For e.g.







Now if these guys were lean to a bb standard and despite not training for size they would have better shape and separation than an awful lot of gym bodybuilders.


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