# What causes a bigger insulin spike



## Tinytom (Sep 16, 2005)

*What causes highest insulin spike*​
Simple Carbs14347.19%Simple Carbs and Whey shake9431.02%Complex carbs and whey shae185.94%Whey protein shake103.30%I don't care I'm going to the Male Animal to look at porn3812.54%


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## Tinytom (Sep 16, 2005)

Ok so this is partly related to Hackskii's poll but I thought especially pertinent for PWO info

No moderators are allowed to tell the answer.


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## John (Jun 5, 2004)

The simple Carbs Option, but im looking forward to the shedding of the knowledge.


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## DB (Oct 31, 2003)

i went with johnny on this one! simple carbs


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## Ironman (Jul 12, 2005)

I would say simple carbs plus a shake.


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## the_gre8t_1ne (Apr 18, 2005)

simple


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## crazycacti (Jun 20, 2004)

i went with simple carbs here - -

in my thinking a fat slows down absorbtion and would curb insulin...

protein would do this also - even if it is whey


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## dynamatiz (Nov 7, 2005)

im going with simple carbs and whey imo, jus purely on basis of quantity,

there is a lot of sweeteners added for the flavour in whey and if taken with simple carbs as well, there should be a big raise in insulin levels than just with simple carbs alone

not sure though


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## Timmy Smooth (Nov 24, 2004)

Well I've just downed 4 Iceland sausage rolls and my arms are shaking like an epilectic on a bucking bronco.

I've also started eating a Mars Bar PWO.


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## John (Jun 5, 2004)

share the love or should that be knowledge.


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## Tinytom (Sep 16, 2005)

The answer is that Whey Protein and simple carbs raise insulin levels higher.

Something to do with whey isolate apparantly. i read the article in last month's muscular development - top mag for nutrition, drugs gossip etc.

Therefore I always take some hydrolysed amino capsules with my PWO carbs and protein for extra potency.

I use CNP Pro Aminos for this but there are other brands available although I couldn't venture a guess as to which ones sorry. The aminos must be hydrolysed or isolate for the higher spike to work according to the article, most amino acid capsules are concentrate so check your labels before buying for this purpose.

Reps to Ironman and Dymatiz for the correct answers


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## Peg (Feb 9, 2006)

I'm not on the competitor's road to building huge amounts of mass. I am just wanting more lean muscle and less body fat....

I will eat a big heaping or two tablespoon globs of peanut butter or 3 handfuls of peanuts after a work-out with the shake. The fat and protein of the peanut butter works for me to keep the insulin from spiking and curbs my carb craving after a work-out...

but then you may need more protein for the muscle gains you want.


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## Stu (Jan 22, 2005)

Peg said:


> I'm not on the competitor's road to building huge amounts of mass. I am just wanting more lean muscle and less body fat....
> 
> I will eat a big heaping or two tablespoon globs of peanut butter or 3 handfuls of peanuts after a work-out with the shake. The fat and protein of the peanut butter works for me to keep the insulin from spiking and curbs my carb craving after a work-out...
> 
> but then you may need more protein for the muscle gains you want.


some people believe its beneficial to create an insulin spike post workout because insulin is very anabolic under the right conditions.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Jentjens R, Jeukendrup A.

Human Performance Laboratory, School of Sport and Exercise Sciences, University of Birmingham, Edgbaston, Birmingham, UK.

The pattern of muscle glycogen synthesis following glycogen-depleting exercise occurs in two phases. Initially, there is a period of rapid synthesis of muscle glycogen that does not require the presence of insulin and lasts about 30-60 minutes. This rapid phase of muscle glycogen synthesis is characterised by an exercise-induced translocation of glucose transporter carrier protein-4 to the cell surface, leading to an increased permeability of the muscle membrane to glucose. Following this rapid phase of glycogen synthesis, muscle glycogen synthesis occurs at a much slower rate and this phase can last for several hours. Both muscle contraction and insulin have been shown to increase the activity of glycogen synthase, the rate-limiting enzyme in glycogen synthesis. Furthermore, it has been shown that muscle glycogen concentration is a potent regulator of glycogen synthase. Low muscle glycogen concentrations following exercise are associated with an increased rate of glucose transport and an increased capacity to convert glucose into glycogen.The highest muscle glycogen synthesis rates have been reported when large amounts of carbohydrate (1.0-1.85 g/kg/h) are consumed immediately post-exercise and at 15-60 minute intervals thereafter, for up to 5 hours post-exercise. When carbohydrate ingestion is delayed by several hours, this may lead to ~50% lower rates of muscle glycogen synthesis. *The addition of certain amino acids and/or proteins to a carbohydrate supplement can increase muscle glycogen synthesis rates, most probably because of an enhanced insulin response.* However, when carbohydrate intake is high (>/=1.2 g/kg/h) and provided at regular intervals, a further increase in insulin concentrations by additional supplementation of protein and/or amino acids does not further increase the rate of muscle glycogen synthesis. Thus, when carbohydrate intake is insufficient (<1.2 g/kg/h), the addition of certain amino acids and/or proteins may be beneficial for muscle glycogen synthesis. Furthermore, ingestion of insulinotropic protein and/or amino acid mixtures might stimulate post-exercise net muscle protein anabolism. Suggestions have been made that carbohydrate availability is the main limiting factor for glycogen synthesis. A large part of the ingested glucose that enters the bloodstream appears to be extracted by tissues other than the exercise muscle (i.e. liver, other muscle groups or fat tissue) and may therefore limit the amount of glucose available to maximise muscle glycogen synthesis rates. Furthermore, intestinal glucose absorption may also be a rate-limiting factor for muscle glycogen synthesis when large quantities (>1 g/min) of glucose are ingested following exercise.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Exercise Physiology and Metabolism Laboratory, Department of Kinesiology and Health Education, The University of Texas at Austin, Austin, TX, USA.

Muscle glycogen is an essential fuel for prolonged intense exercise, and therefore it is important that the glycogen stores be copious for competition and strenuous training regimens. While early research focused on means of increasing the muscle glycogen stores in preparation for competition and its day-to-day replenishment, recent research has focused on the most effective means of promoting its replenishment during the early hours of recovery. It has been observed that muscle glycogen synthesis is twice as rapid if carbohydrate is consumed immediately after exercise as opposed to waiting several hours, and that a rapid rate of synthesis can be maintained if carbohydrate is consumed on a regular basis. For example, supplementing at 30-min intervals at a rate of 1.2 to 1.5 g CHO x kg(-1) body wt x h(-1) appears to maximize synthesis for a period of 4- to 5-h post exercise. *If a lighter carbohydrate supplement is desired, however, glycogen synthesis can be enhanced with the addition of protein and certain amino acids. Furthermore, the combination of carbohydrate and protein has the added benefit of stimulating amino acid transport, protein synthesis and muscle tissue repair.* Research suggests that aerobic performance following recovery is related to the degree of muscle glycogen replenishment.

Publication Types:

Review

Review, Tutorial

PMID: 11897899 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


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## Ironman (Jul 12, 2005)

Tinytom said:


> The answer is that Whey Protein and simple carbs raise insulin levels higher.
> 
> Something to do with whey isolate apparantly. i read the article in last month's muscular development - top mag for nutrition, drugs gossip etc.
> 
> ...


I take slin pwo so will this negate the need for hydrolysed amino capsules?


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## Captain Hero (Jun 13, 2004)

Tinytom said:


> The answer is that Whey Protein and simple carbs raise insulin levels higher.
> 
> Something to do with whey isolate apparantly. i read the article in last month's muscular development - top mag for nutrition, drugs gossip etc.
> 
> ...


Hey I picked that one too and I didnt look! :axe:


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

*And the winner is:*

I don't care I'm going to the Male Animal to look at porn 

LMAO, glad that all you guys took the time to vote:eek:


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## Captain Hero (Jun 13, 2004)

hackskii said:


> *And the winner is:*
> 
> I don't care I'm going to the Male Animal to look at porn
> 
> LMAO, glad that all you guys took the time to vote:eek:


LMAO!!!! 556 people voted I dont care im going to the male animal to look at porn!


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Cap said:


> LMAO!!!! 556 people voted I dont care im going to the male animal to look at porn!


Well, actually only one voted for that but I thought I would edit the poll to reflect the relevent number of perverts here


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## Tinytom (Sep 16, 2005)

Oi Hackskii

No editing my educational post with your filth.

It was me who voted for the male animal BTW


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## Paul1 (Jun 30, 2006)

crazycacti said:


> i went with simple carbs here - -
> 
> in my thinking a fat slows down absorbtion and would curb insulin...
> 
> protein would do this also - even if it is whey


Even tho I add whey to my post training shake I have to agree with the above on this one.


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## Captain Hero (Jun 13, 2004)

hackskii said:


> Well, actually only one voted for that but I thought I would edit the poll to reflect the relevent number of perverts here


I did think there werent that many people with access to the male animal


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## Tatyana (Jan 29, 2006)

Ironman said:


> I take slin pwo so will this negate the need for hydrolysed amino capsules?


Insulin will transport amino acids into your muscles, which then will build protein/muscle, so it would be better to have more amino acids.

I am speaking from theory/textbook, bump for the lads that do take.

x

x

x

T


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## Ironball (Sep 22, 2004)

I went for the 2 grams of crack and a curly wurly option, fook knows if it spikes inslin but it gets me buzzin.


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## steinbeck (Oct 18, 2006)

crazycacti said:


> i went with simple carbs here - -
> 
> in my thinking a fat slows down absorbtion and would curb insulin...
> 
> protein would do this also - even if it is whey


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## Guest (Oct 26, 2006)

Tatyana said:


> Insulin will transport amino acids into your muscles, which then will build protein/muscle, so it would be better to have more amino acids.
> 
> I am speaking from theory/textbook, bump for the lads that do take.
> 
> ...


The other very importnt reason for an insulin spike post workout is to avoid catabolism due to the increased cortisol levels during intense workouts.

Even dieting there should be sufficient simple sugars post workout to provide the spike, otherwise its bye bye lean tissue


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

mb250 said:


> The other very importnt reason for an insulin spike post workout is to avoid catabolism due to the increased cortisol levels during intense workouts.
> 
> Even dieting there should be sufficient simple sugars post workout to provide the spike, otherwise its bye bye lean tissue


I don't necessarily agree with this. Simple sugars would eventually make one more insulin resistant this is never a good idea.

Granted insulin is anti-catabolic and actually anabolic, but in the presence of insulin GH production halts. So if one were to use whey with a fat then there would be less decline in GH production.

GH is a great fat burner; insulin is a great storage hormone.

After a workout you become insulin sensitive so I really don't think simple sugars are all that great an idea when dieting.

When I diet I don't use simple sugars at all, I don't think there is any need for simple sugars in the diet. Ever&#8230;.

When I diet I just have whey and creatine PWO.

When I low carb diet I eat mostly fats and protein.

I know the PWO shakes sound good but I think people abuse them.

I think some dudes even use whey shakes with oats. For some reason to me this sounds more sensible.


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## mrmasive (Dec 30, 2005)

Bump for later


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## Guest (Oct 27, 2006)

hackskii, your right simple sugars lead to insulin resistance in most diets. However, most diets include simple sugars time and time again during one day, at times where there is no need for it. Post workout the body is extremely insulin sensitive, it loves the stuff because it needs it to stop catabolic activity from excessive cortisol production.

Having one dose post workout 3/4 time per week will not lead to insulin resistance, and it only needs to be 30g+ to cause sufficient spike IMO. To me its far more important to keep that tiny bit of lean tissue you'll lose that worry about 100kclas of sugars.

Try it, its amazing the difference it can make to recovery!


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

mb250 said:


> hackskii, your right simple sugars lead to insulin resistance in most diets. However, most diets include simple sugars time and time again during one day, at times where there is no need for it. Post workout the body is extremely insulin sensitive, it loves the stuff because it needs it to stop catabolic activity from excessive cortisol production.
> 
> Having one dose post workout 3/4 time per week will not lead to insulin resistance, and it only needs to be 30g+ to cause sufficient spike IMO. To me its far more important to keep that tiny bit of lean tissue you'll lose that worry about 100kclas of sugars.
> 
> Try it, its amazing the difference it can make to recovery!


Cortisol is not a problem unless you are working out more than one hour.

The short workouts that last 30 to 45 minutes with some good intensity will raise GH and test levels. GH will be elivated and an insulin spike will lower GH production in the presence of insulin.

If the workouts are lasting longer than an hour test and GH production lower and cortisol is raised.

In this instance sure insulin will KO cortisol.

I seriously doubt muscle glycogen and liver glycogen stores are depleted.

There are more factors in the production of cortisol than just working out as well, the amount of sleep you have, stress in your life and certain dietary habbits factor in cortisol production.

Even L-Glutamine is anti-catabolic.

I just cant bring myself to taking in simple sugars. I am constantly dieting and my carbohydrates for the most part consist of fruits and vegetables, if I eat the simple sugars of fast acting carbs or preocessed carbs I crave carbs then will overfeed.

Although I dont disagree with this in principle I was just kind of giving the other side of what some others think about this.

Rob Faigin has some interesting concepts on this that is pretty fun to read.

He suggests that PWO no sugars should be taken in due to its disruption of GH production which is also anti-catabolic. With shorter intense workouts raising GH and test production catabolism might not be an issue PWO.

He suggests a protein and a fat.

Although he is low carb for 3 days then the 4th day last two meals are carbs and low fat low protein.

His whole approach is to switch from being a sugar to a fat burner and a refeed to replace muscle glycogen stores without disrupting the fat burning process.

Although I have done this and lost weight and also pretty much didnt lose too much muscle I think there are many ways of doing things with success.

I just dont think you go as catabolic as most people think and fat is the most efficient source of fuel the body has.

Again, just giving the other side of the coin. Most bodybuilders do take in a sugar and protein PWO and I do agree with this in principle.


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## Guest (Oct 27, 2006)

one more point.... you mentioned muscle and liver glycogen depletion.Once glucose is stored as glycogen within muscle tissue it cannot be realeased. If its in your delt it stays there until used.

So on training days with small muscle groups like chest shoulders and triceps, its very easy to deplete these stores, and the liver only holds a small amount as it is constanlty releasing its stores to combat insluin effects. Which IMO would bring the need for the spike.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

I believe the liver holds about 70 grams of glycogen and muscle tissue can be rather large like 400-500 grams even more depending on the amount of muscle you are carrying.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

mb250 said:


> one more point.... you mentioned muscle and liver glycogen depletion.Once glucose is stored as glycogen within muscle tissue it cannot be realeased. If its in your delt it stays there until used.
> 
> So on training days with small muscle groups like chest shoulders and triceps, its very easy to deplete these stores, and the liver only holds a small amount as it is constanlty releasing its stores to combat insluin effects. Which IMO would bring the need for the spike.


If this is the case then marathon runners would have depleted glycogen stores in their legs and then they would not be able to run anymore.

Are you saying that if you train shoulders very hard that your delts would go catabolic?


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Determinants of post-exercise glycogen synthesis during short-term recovery.

Jentjens R, Jeukendrup A.

Human Performance Laboratory, School of Sport and Exercise Sciences, University of Birmingham, Edgbaston, Birmingham, UK.

The pattern of muscle glycogen synthesis following glycogen-depleting exercise occurs in two phases. Initially, there is a period of rapid synthesis of muscle glycogen that does not require the presence of insulin and lasts about 30-60 minutes. This rapid phase of muscle glycogen synthesis is characterised by an exercise-induced translocation of glucose transporter carrier protein-4 to the cell surface, leading to an increased permeability of the muscle membrane to glucose. Following this rapid phase of glycogen synthesis, muscle glycogen synthesis occurs at a much slower rate and this phase can last for several hours. Both muscle contraction and insulin have been shown to increase the activity of glycogen synthase, the rate-limiting enzyme in glycogen synthesis. Furthermore, it has been shown that muscle glycogen concentration is a potent regulator of glycogen synthase. Low muscle glycogen concentrations following exercise are associated with an increased rate of glucose transport and an increased capacity to convert glucose into glycogen.The highest muscle glycogen synthesis rates have been reported when large amounts of carbohydrate (1.0-1.85 g/kg/h) are consumed immediately post-exercise and at 15-60 minute intervals thereafter, for up to 5 hours post-exercise. When carbohydrate ingestion is delayed by several hours, this may lead to ~50% lower rates of muscle glycogen synthesis. The addition of certain amino acids and/or proteins to a carbohydrate supplement can increase muscle glycogen synthesis rates, most probably because of an enhanced insulin response. However, when carbohydrate intake is high (>/=1.2 g/kg/h) and provided at regular intervals, a further increase in insulin concentrations by additional supplementation of protein and/or amino acids does not further increase the rate of muscle glycogen synthesis. Thus, when carbohydrate intake is insufficient (<1.2 g/kg/h), the addition of certain amino acids and/or proteins may be beneficial for muscle glycogen synthesis. Furthermore, ingestion of insulinotropic protein and/or amino acid mixtures might stimulate post-exercise net muscle protein anabolism. Suggestions have been made that carbohydrate availability is the main limiting factor for glycogen synthesis. A large part of the ingested glucose that enters the bloodstream appears to be extracted by tissues other than the exercise muscle (i.e. liver, other muscle groups or fat tissue) and may therefore limit the amount of glucose available to maximise muscle glycogen synthesis rates. Furthermore, intestinal glucose absorption may also be a rate-limiting factor for muscle glycogen synthesis when large quantities (>1 g/min) of glucose are ingested following exercise.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Here's a follow up on that one.

2.)

Regulation of GLUT4 protein and glycogen synthase during muscle glycogen synthesis after exercise.

Ivy JL, Kuo CH.

Department of Kinesiology, The University of Texas at Austin, 78712, USA.

The pattern of muscle glycogen synthesis following its depletion by exercise is biphasic. Initially, there is a rapid, insulin independent increase in the muscle glycogen stores. This is then followed by a slower insulin dependent rate of synthesis. Contributing to the rapid phase of glycogen synthesis is an increase in muscle cell membrane permeability to glucose, which serves to increase the intracellular concentration of glucose-6-phosphate (G6P) and activate glycogen synthase. Stimulation of glucose transport by muscle contraction as well as insulin is largely mediated by translocation of the glucose transporter isoform GLUT4 from intracellular sites to the plasma membrane. Thus, the increase in membrane permeability to glucose following exercise most likely reflects an increase in GLUT4 protein associated with the plasma membrane. This insulin-like effect on muscle glucose transport induced by muscle contraction, however, reverses rapidly after exercise is stopped. As this direct effect on transport is lost, it is replaced by a marked increase in the sensitivity of muscle glucose transport and glycogen synthesis to insulin. Thus, the second phase of glycogen synthesis appears to be related to an increased muscle insulin sensitivity. Although the cellular modifications responsible for the increase in insulin sensitivity are unknown, it apparently helps maintain an increased number of GLUT4 transporters associated with the plasma membrane once the contraction-stimulated effect on translocation has reversed. It is also possible that an increase in GLUT4 protein expression plays a role during the insulin dependent phase.

Publication Types:

Review

Review, Tutorial

PMID: 9578375 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

3.) Dietary strategies to promote glycogen synthesis after exercise.

Ivy JL.

Exercise Physiology and Metabolism Laboratory, Department of Kinesiology and Health Education, The University of Texas at Austin, Austin, TX, USA.

Muscle glycogen is an essential fuel for prolonged intense exercise, and therefore it is important that the glycogen stores be copious for competition and strenuous training regimens. While early research focused on means of increasing the muscle glycogen stores in preparation for competition and its day-to-day replenishment, recent research has focused on the most effective means of promoting its replenishment during the early hours of recovery. It has been observed that muscle glycogen synthesis is twice as rapid if carbohydrate is consumed immediately after exercise as opposed to waiting several hours, and that a rapid rate of synthesis can be maintained if carbohydrate is consumed on a regular basis. For example, supplementing at 30-min intervals at a rate of 1.2 to 1.5 g CHO x kg(-1) body wt x h(-1) appears to maximize synthesis for a period of 4- to 5-h post exercise. If a lighter carbohydrate supplement is desired, however, glycogen synthesis can be enhanced with the addition of protein and certain amino acids. Furthermore, the combination of carbohydrate and protein has the added benefit of stimulating amino acid transport, protein synthesis and muscle tissue repair. Research suggests that aerobic performance following recovery is related to the degree of muscle glycogen replenishment.

Publication Types:

Review

Review, Tutorial

PMID: 11897899 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

*So much for cramming tons of carbs to get effects of insulin spike.*

4.) Effect of different post-exercise sugar diets on the rate of muscle glycogen synthesis.

Blom PC, Hostmark AT, Vaage O, Kardel KR, Maehlum S.

Department of Physiology, National Institute of Occupational Health, Oslo, Norway.

The effect of repeated ingestions of fructose, sucrose, and various amounts of glucose on muscle glycogen synthesis during the first 6 h after exhaustive bicycle exercise was studied. Muscle biopsies for glycogen determination were taken before and after exercise, and every second hour during recovery. Blood samples for plasma glucose and insulin determination were taken before and after exercise, and every hour during recovery. When 0.35 (low glucose: N = 5), 0.70 (medium glucose: N = 5), or 1.40 (high glucose: N = 5) g.kg-1 body weight of glucose were given orally at 0, 2, and 4 h after exercise, the rates of glycogen synthesis were (mean +/- SE) 2.1 +/- 0.5, 5.8 +/- 1.0, and 5.7 +/- 0.9 mmol.kg-1.h-1, respectively. When 0.70 g.kg-1 body weight of sucrose (medium sucrose: N = 5), or fructose (medium fructose: N = 7) was ingested accordingly, the rates were 6.2 +/- 0.5 and 3.2 +/- 0.7 mmol.kg-1.h-1. Average plasma glucose level during recovery were similar in low glucose, medium glucose, and high glucose groups (5.76 +/- 0.24, 6.31 +/- 0.64, and 6.52 +/- 0.24 mM), while average plasma insulin levels were higher with higher glucose intake (16 +/- 1, 21 +/- 3, and 38 +/- 4 microU.ml-1).(ABSTRACT TRUNCATED AT 250 WORDS)


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

5.) Comparison of carbohydrate and milk-based beverages on muscle damage and glycogen following exercise.

Wojcik JR, Walber-Rankin J, Smith LL, Gwazdauskas FC.

Department of Human Nutrition, Foods, and Exercise at Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University, Blacksburg 24061, USA.

This study examined effects of carbohydrate (CHO), milk-based carbohydrate-protein (CHO-PRO), or placebo (P) beverages on glycogen resynthesis, muscle damage, inflammation, and muscle function following eccentric resistance exercise. Untrained males performed a cycling exercise to reduce muscle glycogen 12 hours prior to performance of 100 eccentric quadriceps contractions at 120% of 1-RM (day 1) and drank CHO (n = 8), CHO-PRO (n = 9; 5 kcal/kg), or P (n = 9) immediately and 2 hours post-exercise. At 3 hours post-eccentric exercise, serum insulin was four times higher for CHO-PRO and CHO than P (p < .05). Serum creatine kinase (CK) increased for all groups in the 6 hours post-eccentric exercise (p < .01), with the increase tending to be lowest for CHO-PRO (p < .08) during this period. Glycogen was low post-exercise (33+/-3.7 mmol/kg ww), increased 225% at 24 hours, and tripled by 72 hours, with no group differences. The eccentric exercise increased muscle protein breakdown as indicated by urinary 3-methylhistidine and increased IL-6 with no effect of beverage. Quadriceps isokinetic peak torque was depressed similarly for all groups by 24% 24 hours post-exercise and remained 21% lower at 72 hours (p < .01). In summary, there were no influences of any post-exercise beverage on muscle glycogen replacement, inflammation, or muscle function.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

You high carb dieters are only hurting yourselves!!!

6.) Carbohydrate nutrition before, during, and after exercise.

Costill DL.

The role of dietary carbohydrates (CHO) in the resynthesis of muscle and liver glycogen after prolonged, exhaustive exercise has been clearly demonstrated. The mechanisms responsible for optimal glycogen storage are linked to the activation of glycogen synthetase by depletion of glycogen and the subsequent intake of CHO. Although diets rich in CHO may increase the muscle glycogen stores and enhance endurance exercise performance when consumed in the days before the activity, they also increase the rate of CHO oxidation and the use of muscle glycogen. When consumed in the last hour before exercise, the insulin stimulated-uptake of glucose from blood often results in hypoglycemia, greater dependence on muscle glycogen, and an earlier onset of exhaustion than when no CHO is fed. Ingesting CHO during exercise appears to be of minimal value to performance except in events lasting 2 h or longer. The form of CHO (i.e., glucose, fructose, sucrose) ingested may produce different blood glucose and insulin responses, but the rate of muscle glycogen resynthesis is about the same regardless of the structure.

PMID: 3967778 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

7.) Type and timing of protein feeding to optimize anabolism.

Mosoni L, Mirand PP.

PURPOSE OF REVIEWThe delivery rate of amino acids to an organism significantly affects protein anabolism. The rate can be controlled by the type and the timing of feeding. Our aim was to bring new insights to the way they may act.RECENT FINDINGSDuring young and adult ages, when food supply is liberal, subjects can adapt to various modes of protein feeding. However, during food restriction, protein anabolism is favored when the delivery of amino acids is evenly distributed over the day, either with frequent meals, or through the use of slowly absorbed proteins like casein. In contrast, during aging, quickly absorbed protein sources become more efficient. During recovery after exercise, the timing of protein feeding after the end of exercise may or may not influence its anabolic effect, depending on the subject's age and the type of exercise.SUMMARYThe synchronization of variations in anabolic capability with amino acid supply partly explains the effects of the type and timing of protein feeding. This effect is modulated by the amount of amino acids required to increase whole-body proteins and by the signaling properties of some amino acids to stimulate protein synthesis. Indeed, the anabolic effect of amino acids is determined by their interaction with other anabolic factors (other nutrients or physiological factors, whose efficiency is mainly related to their effect on protein degradation). It is clear that benefits can be obtained from adapted protein feeding patterns.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

*Is this study saying that one should use complex carbohydrates post workout?*

8.) Effect of different types of high carbohydrate diets on glycogen metabolism in liver and skeletal muscle of endurance-trained rats.

Garrido G, Guzman M, Odriozola JM.

Department of Human Performance, National Institute of Physical Education, Madrid, Spain.

Male Wistar rats were fed ad libitum four different diets containing fructose, sucrose, maltodextrins or starch as the source of carbohydrate (CH). One group was subjected to moderate physical training on a motor-driven treadmill for 10 weeks (trained rats). A second group received no training and acted as a control (sedentary rats). Glycogen metabolism was studied in the liver and skeletal muscle of these animals. In the sedentary rats, liver glycogen concentrations increased by 60%-90% with the administration of simple CH diets compared with complex CH diets, whereas skeletal muscle glycogen stores were not significantly affected by the diet. Physical training induced a marked decrease in the glycogen content in liver (20%-30% of the sedentary rats) and skeletal muscle (50%-80% of the sedentary rats) in animals fed simple (but not complex) CH diets. In liver this was accompanied by a two-fold increase of triacylglycerol concentrations. Compared with simple CH diets, complex CH feeding increased by 50%-150% glycogen synthase (GS) activity in liver, whereas only a slight increase in GS activity was observed in skeletal muscle. In all the animal groups, a direct relationship existed between tissue glucose 6-phosphate concentration and glycogen content (r = 0.9911 in liver, r = 0.7177 in skeletal muscle). In contrast, no relationship was evident between glycogen concentrations and either glycogen phosphorylase activity or adenosine 5'-monophosphate tissue concentration. *The results from this study thus suggest that for trained rats diets containing complex CH (compared with diets containing simple CH) improve the glycogenic capacity of liver and skeletal muscle, thus enabling the adequate regeneration of glycogen stores in these two tissues.*


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

9.)Simple and complex carbohydrate-rich diets and muscle glycogen content of marathon runners.

Roberts KM, Noble EG, Hayden DB, Taylor AW.

Faculty of Physical Education, University of Western Ontario, London, Canada.

The effects of simple-carbohydrate (CHO)- and complex-CHO-rich diets on skeletal muscle glycogen content were compared. Twenty male marathon runners were divided into four equal groups with reference to dietary consumption: depletion/simple, depletion/complex, nondepletion/simple, and nondepletion/complex. Subjects consumed either a low-CHO (15% energy [E] intake), or a mixed diet (50% CHO) for 3 days, immediately followed by a high-CHO diet (70% E intake) predominant in either simple-CHO or in complex-CHO (85% of total CHO intake) for another 3 days. Skeletal muscle biopsies and venous blood samples were obtained one day prior to the start of the low-CHO diet or mixed diet (PRE), and then again one day after the completion of the high-CHO diet (POST). The samples were analysed for skeletal muscle glycogen, serum free fatty acids (FFA), insulin, and lactate and blood glucose. Skeletal muscle glycogen content increased significantly (p less than 0.05) only in the nondepletion/simple group. When groups were combined, according to the type of CHO ingested and/or utilization of a depletion diet, significant increases were observed in glycogen content. Serum FFA decreased significantly (p less than 0.05) for the nondepletion/complex group only, while serum insulin, blood glucose, and serum lactate were not altered. It is concluded that significant increases in skeletal muscle glycogen content can be achieved with a diet high in simple-CHO or complex-CHO, with or without initial consumption of a low-CHO diet.

PMID: 3342797 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

*This is a copy and paste from a dude named Lgoosey *

*
I didnt put it into my own words because I liked the way he thinks.*

*
I read so much my mind feels numb.....*

There`s so many studies for & against high-GI post-exercise.

Which study do you base your diet on?

Well then lets look at all the facts then.

1. Will muscle glycogen be replenished with either form of carbohydrate? Yes.

2. Had there been any study saying the faster muscle glycogen is replenished the better for muscle growth? Not really. They say muscle glycogen resynthesis isn't changed. If we were concerned with replenishing muscle and liver glygogen fast for energy requirements then its a whole different story. We're not concerned with that here. Strickly muscle repair.

2. Is there any benefit of creating a HUGE insulin spike? IMO, no because muscle gylocgen replenishment in its first phase is independent of insulin. After that its followed by a slower insulin dependent phase. Sound like low GI would be better for that without the risk of excess glucose being present.

So after lookin at those points deduced from the studies above it seems both methods work. One method just has a bigger risk of creating a nice little tire around your waist

You guys judge for yourselves.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

So much for high GI carbs PWO.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Physiological hyperinsulinemia stimulates p70(S6k) phosphorylation in human skeletal muscle.

Hillier T, Long W, Jahn L, Wei L, Barrett EJ.

Department of Internal Medicine, Division of Endocrinology, University of Virginia School of Medicine, Charlottesville, Virginia 22908, USA.

Using tracer methods, insulin stimulates muscle protein synthesis in vitro, an effect not seen in vivo with physiological insulin concentrations in adult animals or humans. To examine the action of physiological hyperinsulinemia on protein synthesis using a tracer-independent method in vivo and identify possible explanations for this discrepancy, we measured the phosphorylation of ribosomal protein S6 kinase (P70(S6k)) and eIF4E-binding protein (eIF4E-BP1), two key proteins that regulate messenger ribonucleic acid translation and protein synthesis. Postabsorptive healthy adults received either a 2-h insulin infusion (1 mU/min.kg; euglycemic insulin clamp; n = 6) or a 2-h saline infusion (n = 5). Vastus lateralis muscle was biopsied at baseline and at the end of the infusion period. Phosphorylation of P70(S6k) and eIF4E-BP1 was quantified on Western blots after SDS-PAGE. Physiological increments in plasma insulin (42 +/- 13 to 366 +/- 36 pmol/L; P: = 0.0002) significantly increased p70(S6k) (P: < 0.01), but did not affect eIF4E-BP1 phosphorylation in muscle. Plasma insulin declined slightly during saline infusion (P: = 0.04), and there was no change in the phosphorylation of either p70(S6k) or eIF4E-BP1. These findings indicate an important role of physiological hyperinsulinemia in the regulation of p70(S6k) in human muscle. This finding is consistent with a potential role for insulin in regulating the synthesis of that subset of proteins involved in ribosomal function. *The failure to enhance the phosphorylation of eIF4E-BP1 may in part explain the lack of a stimulatory effect of physiological hyperinsulinemia on bulk protein synthesis in skeletal muscle in vivo.*


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Determinants of post-exercise glycogen synthesis during short-term recovery.

Jentjens R, Jeukendrup A.

Human Performance Laboratory, School of Sport and Exercise Sciences, University of Birmingham, Edgbaston, Birmingham, UK.

The pattern of muscle glycogen synthesis following glycogen-depleting exercise occurs in two phases. *Initially, there is a period of rapid synthesis of muscle glycogen that does not require the presence of insulin and lasts about 30-60 minutes.* This rapid phase of muscle glycogen synthesis is characterised by an exercise-induced translocation of glucose transporter carrier protein-4 to the cell surface, leading to an increased permeability of the muscle membrane to glucose. Following this rapid phase of glycogen synthesis, muscle glycogen synthesis occurs at a much slower rate and this phase can last for several hours. Both muscle contraction and insulin have been shown to increase the activity of glycogen synthase, the rate-limiting enzyme in glycogen synthesis. Furthermore, it has been shown that muscle glycogen concentration is a potent regulator of glycogen synthase. Low muscle glycogen concentrations following exercise are associated with an increased rate of glucose transport and an increased capacity to convert glucose into glycogen.The highest muscle glycogen synthesis rates have been reported when large amounts of carbohydrate (1.0-1.85 g/kg/h) are consumed immediately post-exercise and at 15-60 minute intervals thereafter, for up to 5 hours post-exercise. When carbohydrate ingestion is delayed by several hours, this may lead to ~50% lower rates of muscle glycogen synthesis. The addition of certain amino acids and/or proteins to a carbohydrate supplement can increase muscle glycogen synthesis rates, most probably because of an enhanced insulin response. However, when carbohydrate intake is high (>/=1.2 g/kg/h) and provided at regular intervals, a further increase in insulin concentrations by additional supplementation of protein and/or amino acids does not further increase the rate of muscle glycogen synthesis. Thus, when carbohydrate intake is insufficient (<1.2 g/kg/h), the addition of certain amino acids and/or proteins may be beneficial for muscle glycogen synthesis. Furthermore, ingestion of insulinotropic protein and/or amino acid mixtures might stimulate post-exercise net muscle protein anabolism. *Suggestions have been made that carbohydrate availability is the main limiting factor for glycogen synthesis. A large part of the ingested glucose that enters the bloodstream appears to be extracted by tissues other than the exercise muscle (i.e. liver, other muscle groups or fat tissue) and may therefore limit the amount of glucose available to maximise muscle glycogen synthesis rates.* Furthermore, intestinal glucose absorption may also be a rate-limiting factor for muscle glycogen synthesis when large quantities (>1 g/min) of glucose are ingested following exercise.


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## Guest (Oct 28, 2006)

hackskii said:


> *This is a copy and paste from a dude named Lgoosey *
> 
> *I didnt put it into my own words because I liked the way he thinks.*
> 
> ...


Intense! However a few points to note - half the studies are on rats - or marathon runners, neither have any great influence on bodybuilding 

And for the quote above the whole point of insulin spike is to make the most of insulin sensitivity. Its a two hour period where you really can recover multiple times faster, which anyone trying to maintain or create muscle tissue should take advantage of it. It neednt be huge amounts of simple sugars, 30g will suffice and not refined either.

And yup, stored glycogen within muscle tissue is usually only used either within the muscle or when the tissue is broken down (which isnt really any alternative!), hence the need for slow release carbs pre workout.

Nice reading tho hackskii - its got me confused!


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

First of all the whole point of being insulin sensitive means that slower GI carbs will have a big enough spike in insulin to do its job.

So, you do not need fast acting carbs to achieve what we are looking for.

Fast acting carbs could possibly aid in fat gain and make you less insulin sensitive, which is the whole point in the first place.

Cortisol is not much of an issue unless there is too long of training.

GH production after a workout is high and spiking insulin is counterproductive in fat burning and GH release.

Insulin supresses release of GH, which then would possibly effect IGF-1 in a counterproductive way.

GH is anti-catabolic.

You are not really that catabolic after a workout like you suggest.

Saying you need fast acting carbs PWO or muscle loss is a bit reaching.....Well, alot in my opinion.

Lets just change gears here for a minute.

What if there was something that you can take which aided in glycogen repleneshment, stopped less carbs to be used as fuel and allowed more fat to be use for fuel while glycogen loading was present?

Have any ideas on what this is?

I will give you a little secret.

It has been used in diets for as long as I can remember, it is cheap and readily available in any store everywhere. Ironicly comes in pill and liquid form.

This would mean very much for the competitor keeping lean and aiding in glycogen storage.

Want me to tell you?

I will post a little study in a minute, I want you to keep licking your lips.

Reputation points will be awarded to the first person that has the answer.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Bump for cookie............


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## Guest (Oct 29, 2006)

Cortisol levels increase up to 80% during training, irrelevant of time and more dependant upon stress to the CNS - major for intense workouts of only 20mins. Thats what it is a reaction to, so i don't agree on that one.

But hey i kind of agree about the carbs, although all the studies ive seen show if glycogen replenishment hasnt occured within the first 90-120mins there is little chance it will to the extent it could have. Providing your not eating tree bark, and you use a low-moderate GI carb that is digested easily your probably within the timescale.

Go on, let me in on the secret.... not some form of amino or mct oil?


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Where did you get that figure of 80% elivated cortisol from?

Do you have any studies on that?

I dont think cortisol is that big of an issue, any stress will raise cortisol levels, it is the bodies healthy responce to stress.

My girfriends dog has addisons disease and she almost died, this is where cortisol is non existant, the vet said any stress could kill her.

Poor thing was a mess.

OK the answer to the question is Acetic Acid or the substance in regular vinegar.

It comes in tablets and liquids.

But in all honesty I would buy apple cider vinegar Bragg makes a fantastic raw unfiltered product that I am using right now.

Here are some studies on that.

Int J Sports Med 2002 Apr;23(3):218-22 Related Articles, Links

The efficacy of acetic acid for glycogen repletion in rat skeletal muscle after exercise.

Fushimi T, Tayama K, Fukaya M, Kitakoshi K, Nakai N, Tsukamoto Y, Sato Y.

Central Research Institute, Mitsukan Group Co. Ltd., Handa, Japan. [email protected]

We examined the effect of acetic acid, the main component of vinegar, on glycogen repletion by using swimming-exercised rats. Rats were trained for 7 days by swimming. After an overnight fast, they were subjected to a 2-hr swimming exercise. Immediately afterward, they were given by gavage 2 ml of one of the following solutions: 30 % glucose only or 30 % glucose with 0.4 % acetic acid. Rats were sacrificed by decapitation before, immediately after exercise and 2 hours after the feeding. Exercise significantly decreased soleus and gastrocnemius glycogen content, and feeding significantly increased liver, soleus and gastrocnemius glycogen content. In soleus muscle, acetate feeding significantly increased glycogen content and the ratio of glycogen synthase in the I form (means +/- SEM: 4.04 +/- 0.41 mg/g-tissue and 47.0 +/- 0.7 %, respectively) in contrast to no acetate feeding (3.04 +/- 0.29 mg/g-tissue and 38.1 +/- 3.4 %, respectively). Thus, these findings suggest that the feeding of glucose with acetic acid can more speedily accelerate glycogen repletion in skeletal muscle than can glucose only.

PMID: 11914987 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Here is another one:

Acetic acid feeding enhances glycogen repletion in liver and skeletal muscle of rats.

Fushimi T, Tayama K, Fukaya M, Kitakoshi K, Nakai N, Tsukamoto Y, Sato Y.

Central Research Institute, Mitsukan Group Company Limited, Handa 475-8585, Japan. [email protected]

To investigate the efficacy of the ingestion of vinegar in aiding recovery from fatigue, we examined the effect of dietary acetic acid, the main component of vinegar, on glycogen repletion in rats. Rats were allowed access to a commercial diet twice daily for 6 d. After 15 h of food deprivation, they were either killed immediately or given 2 g of a diet containing 0 (control), 0.1, 0.2 or 0.4 g acetic acid/100 g diet for 2 h. The 0.2 g acetic acid group had significantly greater liver and gastrocnemius muscle glycogen concentration than the control group (P < 0.05). The concentrations of citrate in this group in both the liver and skeletal muscles were >1.3-fold greater than in the control group (P > 0.1). In liver, the concentration of xylulose-5-phosphate in the control group was significantly higher than in the 0.2 and 0.4 g acetic acid groups (P < 0.01). In gastrocnemius muscle, the concentration of glucose-6-phosphate in the control group was significantly lower and the ratio of fructose-1,6-bisphosphate/fructose-6-phosphate was significantly higher than in the 0.2 g acetic acid group (P < 0.05). This ratio in the soleus muscle of the acetic acid fed groups was <0.8-fold that of the control group (P > 0.1). In liver, acetic acid may activate gluconeogenesis and inactivate glycolysis through inactivation of fructose-2,6-bisphosphate synthesis due to suppression of xylulose-5-phosphate accumulation. In skeletal muscle, acetic acid may inhibit glycolysis by suppression of phosphofructokinase-1 activity. We conclude that a diet containing acetic acid may enhance glycogen repletion in liver and skeletal muscle.

PMID: 11435516

Got this from Nandi on cuttingedgemuscle

Here is a link to the study:

http://www.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/131/7/1973

The concentration of acetic acid was 0.2 gm per 100 gm of food ingested. Regular household vinegar is about 5% acetic acid. To get 0.2 gm of acetic acid you would need to drink 4.0 grams of vinegar. Vinegar's density (1.0056 g/cm3) is about like that of water, so drink 4 cc per 100 grams of food.

If you are carb loading before an event, you could take in 4cc for each 100 grams of carbs you eat.

The authors concluded that:

Here we have confirmed that a diet containing acetic acid at concentrations similar to those consumed in a normal meal enhances glycogen repletion in the liver and skeletal muscles of rats (Fig. 1A , B , C ). The effect in liver and gastrocnemius muscle appeared to be linear up to 0.2 g acetic acid/100 g diet.

Our results show that dietary acetic acid can enhance glycogen repletion in both liver and skeletal muscle. The mechanism of this effect is different in liver and skeletal muscle. In liver, acetic acid feeding enhances glycogen repletion by activation of gluconeogenesis and the preferential utilization of G-6-P for glycogenesis. In skeletal muscle, the enhancement of glycogen repletion by acetic acid feeding results from the accumulation of G-6-P due to suppression of glycolysis. We used acetic acid at concentrations comparable to those found in a normal diet. Therefore, we conclude that supplementing meals with vinegar may be beneficial in the recovery of liver and skeletal muscle glycogen, for example, upon fatigue, after skipping meals, postexercise or as part of an athlete's breakfast on the day of competition.

Id say if you are going to get any vinegar it would be the apple cider vinegar and use the raw unfiltered stuff, this stuff has massive health benefits like

INTERNAL BENEFITS:

Rich in enzymes & potassium

Naturally support a healthy immune system

Helps control weight

Promotes digestion & ph Balance

Helps soothe dry throats

Helps remove body sludge toxins

*
External Benefits*

Helps maintain healthy skin

Helps promote youthful, healthy bodies

Soothes irritated skin

Relieves muscle pain from exercise

I just bought some so I will let you know, it does not taste that bad either


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## Guest (Oct 30, 2006)

Your saying everyone should drink vinegar post workout?!? Gyms accross the world are gonna stink 

You ever tried it hackskii?


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

mb250 said:


> Your saying everyone should drink vinegar post workout?!? Gyms accross the world are gonna stink
> 
> You ever tried it hackskii?


I did yesterday, but at work I would need to bring another bottle in to work.

First thing I noticed was less bloating.

the science is there, vinegar has been used for years in diets and apple cider vinegar has been used forever even by Hippocrates (the father of medicine) found and treated his patients with in 400 B.C. He discovered that natural undistilled apple cider vinegar is a powerfull cleansing and healing elixir, a naturally occuring antibiotic and antiseptic that fights germs, bacteria, mold and viruses.

And to think we just learned something new today eh?

I just put it in my protein, creatine, juice drink yesterday and it really wasnt that bad actually.

Now the shot this morning made me feel a little like puking and also broke me out into a sweat.

But that went away in about a minute.

I also take pro-biotics and digestive enzymes with my PWO shakes too for better assimilation.


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## Nine Pack (Oct 30, 2006)

I've edited my post as I had'nt worded it correctly. I wanted to say that the G.I of the carbs taken is not the only factor influencing the degree of insulin spike.

Taken PWO, simple carbs will produce a much smaller insulin spike than if taken when blood sugar is normal as there will already be insulin present in sufficient quantities released during the workout, so a large spike on top of that would be fatal, hence the body only releasing a small amount. The real issue should be how quickly do the carbs elevate insulin release, and not always how high.


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## Tinytom (Sep 16, 2005)

Thatys a good point Paul, I should have thought about that when wording the post originally, I never thought it would create such a debate. lol


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## Rebus (May 22, 2006)

For the last year and a half i've been adding a spoonful or two to all of my six meals. Its soakks nicely into my Turkey and Yam mix or whatever food i have and gives it a nice flavouring which helps the meal go down nicely.

I knew it was good for a diet which was why i started using it but wasn't sure of the science behind it and i didnt want to take any more pills and the liquid is cheap enough from the local supermarket.

Happy i am using it now that ive read the above.

Topman



hackskii said:


> I did yesterday, but at work I would need to bring another bottle in to work.
> 
> First thing I noticed was less bloating.
> 
> ...


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

I keep forgetting to take mine.....lol


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## GSleigh (Jan 22, 2008)

I always thought that adding plenty of protien to a mix of carbs would slow down the break down and insulin bursts... interesting read that


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

GSleigh said:


> I always thought that adding plenty of protien to a mix of carbs would slow down the break down and insulin bursts... interesting read that


Well, if we look at this logicly things will become a bit more clear.

OK, there are 2 things specifically that will slow digestion of any food, that is fat (depends on that fat too), and fiber.

So, adding in any of these two combinations to lets say any meal will lower the glycemic load of that meal, or slow down digestion.

Slowing digestion will result in lowering the speed or the amount of time that meal will get into your blood, then once blood sugar levels are high, insulin will spike to accomidate rise in blood sugars.

So, to avoid spiking of blood sugars one would add fiber and or fat.

As with any processed food, you remove things from that food.

Whey has no fat and no fiber, it is very easy to digest, in contrast lets look at a piece of steak, it has no fiber, but it does have fat.

Saturated fats can spike blood sugars as well, but lets leave that out for clarity.

It takes some doing to chew a steak, your teeth have to break this meat down to be able to swallow it, meat is hard to digest, so gram for gram of protein meat would take longer to digest and break down than whey.

Consider whey a processed food.

All processed foods change the glycemic index of that food.

One more example.

Juice.

Apple juice has a GI of about 40 for the unsweatened

Apple raw is 28

The reason why the apple raw is so much lower is because juicing takes the fiber out. Not even factoring in the fact that it takes just seconds to drink the same calories as an apple in its juice form, it probably has a higher GI due to the time it takes to eat or drink that.

Same holds true for whey shakes.

Many know my feelings on shakes, I personally dont like them, but after a workout then they are fine and actually a welcome addition to your training.

But for normal meals, drop the shakes and eat food, more nutrition, more satisfaction.....


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## hilly (Jan 19, 2008)

so taking this into account what would you say is the best thing to have in your pwo shake lads???

what do you guys have yourselves and finds works best??


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## Aftershock (Jan 28, 2004)

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

The technical arguemnts could go on forever.

However simply from personal experience I find malto and whey works best for me.

Or WMS with Whey 15min later.


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## joeyh1485 (Mar 2, 2008)

Does it make much of a difference having your whey 15mins after wms? Because I've just bin having them both at the same time woops


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## hilly (Jan 19, 2008)

i have mine at the same time as well


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## thestudbeast (Jul 20, 2007)

joeyh1485 said:


> Does it make much of a difference having your whey 15mins after wms? Because I've just bin having them both at the same time woops


A difference: yes it removes the unique properties of WMS and makes it no better than dextrose

much of a difference: lol no!


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## ohmygoodness (Apr 11, 2009)

Wow I loved the studies I'm sure to reread them over & over.

I'm doing a mainly complex carbs a few simple with my whey. Would it help to add in METFORMIN to help shuttle nutrients into the cell PWO?


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## Joshua (Aug 21, 2008)

> Would it help to add in METFORMIN to help shuttle nutrients into the cell PWO?


No.

J


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## big_jim_87 (Jul 9, 2009)

i voted whey and s cabs b4 i read the answer


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## cheef (Dec 1, 2009)

i know its not on there but ice cream and milk are two of the most insulageinc foods to eat


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## Jimmy1 (Aug 14, 2003)

wouldnt try the icecream one though...think of the fat in it


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## Euroboy (Dec 3, 2009)

http://www.menshealth.co.uk/chatroom/topic/316350

http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/diet-bodybuilding/what-insulin-spike-241285.html

GOOGLE IT !


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## Incredible Bulk (Sep 19, 2007)

crazycacti said:


> i went with simple carbs here - -
> 
> in my thinking a fat slows down absorbtion and would curb insulin...
> 
> protein would do this also - even if it is whey


thats what i went with


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## Jimmy1 (Aug 14, 2003)

Euroboy said:


> http://www.menshealth.co.uk/chatroom/topic/316350
> 
> http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/diet-bodybuilding/what-insulin-spike-241285.html
> 
> GOOGLE IT !


wtf?

we all know what a slin spike is

your full of useless [email protected] info


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## Euroboy (Dec 3, 2009)

Jimmy said:


> wtf?
> 
> we all know what a slin spike is
> 
> *your full of useless [email protected] info*


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## thetong6969 (Nov 23, 2008)

varies for me as i take insulin <diabetic

depends on sugar levels


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## TIMMY_432 (Aug 6, 2009)

Simple carbs, iver a few bananas or a shake with a table spoon of suger in it.

I've even made a banana mike shake a few times, pint of milk, 2 bananas and a table spoon of suger


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

well based on my BG level tests.. whey alone spikes my insulin 70% as much as a glass of OJ; so i'm going to vote simple carbs + whey.


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## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

It doesn't matter at the end of the day. Neither protein synthesis or glycogenesis are limited by insulin levels PWO.


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## DiscSupps (Oct 26, 2012)

The addition of protein, be it liquid or food based, will reduce the rate of the insulin spike control the total blood sugar rise.


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## TheHandsomeOne (Nov 27, 2012)

Peptopro + Vitargo.

Gives me really bad flatulence though.


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## TheHandsomeOne (Nov 27, 2012)

DiscSupps said:


> The addition of protein, be it liquid or food based, will reduce the rate of the insulin spike control the total blood sugar rise.


What about peptides? Or even free amino acids? L-leucine??


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## PHMG (Jun 15, 2010)

insulin does...but thats not an option


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## infernal0988 (Jun 16, 2011)

I prefer a banana or a tin of pine apple to spike my slin before workout with a PWO whey shake.


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## Tinytom (Sep 16, 2005)

infernal0988 said:


> I prefer a banana or a tin of pine apple to spike my slin before workout with a PWO whey shake.


Can of coke would be better. Fruit is not a great insulin releaser.


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## Tinytom (Sep 16, 2005)

DiscSupps said:


> The addition of protein, be it liquid or food based, will reduce the rate of the insulin spike control the total blood sugar rise.


Whey and bcaas are insulinogenic.

So that's false. If you check back through this thread which is years old you'll see it was a question posed by me after I read an interesting article about whey and simple carbs causing a bigger spike than carbs alone.

If you have solid protein like chicken then yes it will stall the absorption of other foods like sugars and therefore control insulin.

But liquid forms especially whey isolate have been shown to spike insulin so that's one reason why isolate is not a good choice at times in the day not PWO or at breakfast.


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## DazUKM (Nov 22, 2012)

i would of thought simple carbs, as protein would slow this down (even whey?)

looks like i could be wrong tho ;p


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## infernal0988 (Jun 16, 2011)

Tinytom said:


> Can of coke would be better. Fruit is not a great insulin releaser.


Mmmmmm i think its pretty good i dont like using a soda as a slin release. Idk maybe lucazde would be better.


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## Guest (Dec 6, 2012)

You didn't offer a volume of each  That would play into it lol

But I would assume it's simple carbs + whey shake , or maybe even complex carbs and whey shake. Jury's out, so interesting answer it will be.


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## Guest (Dec 6, 2012)

infernal0988 said:


> Mmmmmm i think its pretty good i dont like using a soda as a slin release. Idk maybe lucazde would be better.


The higher the sugar level of the drink = the higher the insulin released


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## reza85 (Jan 11, 2009)

Injecting glucose directly in to the neck artery !

Heck with inject every thing els so why can't we speed up insulin spike...?

I win, Now what do I win


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## Tinytom (Sep 16, 2005)

infernal0988 said:


> Mmmmmm i think its pretty good i dont like using a soda as a slin release. Idk maybe lucazde would be better.


Original lucozade which is glucose based would be good.

I've found recently that I seem to get a faster reaction from vitargo and beef isolate 100/50


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## Tinytom (Sep 16, 2005)

reza85 said:


> Injecting glucose directly in to the neck artery !
> 
> Heck with inject every thing els so why can't we speed up insulin spike...?
> 
> I win, Now what do I win


As facetious as your post is mainlining into an artery would not do anything as you need to inject into a vein.

Maybe that's why you're not massive.


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## reza85 (Jan 11, 2009)

Tinytom said:


> As facetious as your post is mainlining into an artery would not do anything as you need to inject into a vein.
> 
> Maybe that's why you're not massive.


LOOOOOL that's what i men't.

Is the little mistakes like that are stoping me from being masivvvvvveee...


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## DiscSupps (Oct 26, 2012)

Tinytom said:


> Whey and bcaas are insulinogenic.
> 
> So that's false. If you check back through this thread which is years old you'll see it was a question posed by me after I read an interesting article about whey and simple carbs causing a bigger spike than carbs alone.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the input. Out of interest, did the journal article you refer to state the exact nutritional composition of the protein? Acknowledged, most proteins are semi-elemental meaning they are partially digested already, and yes it is the solid foodstuffs that accompany sugars in the stomach that reduce the rate of the absorption. Yes, whey protein shakes are in fact designed to cause a surge in insulin (seeing as this is an anobolic hormone) and enhances the net absorption of protein, so i take your point, you're right.

Kind regards,

Tom


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