# Pullovers: the forgotten “upper body squat” exercise.



## Fadi (Dec 14, 2010)

Even though I've decided to write this in the "Getting Started" section of the forum, this is as much of an advance exercise as any..., only that the advanced lifters seem to have forgotten about it. So for the advance lifters on UK-M, this is simply a reminder of one of the best exercises you may not be doing today.

Ask anyone about an exercise to help you build some serious mass on your lower body, and inevitably the squat would be highly recommended. Well, if your wish is to add some serious muscles on your upper torso, then one of the old favourites of bodybuilders is the D/bell pullovers across a bench.









Some may say that they don't really feel a direct muscle burn the next day. Others may object that they don't really know which muscles this powerhouse of an exercise really targets. Here's the good news: I belonged to both of these groups when I was treating this exercise just like any other. However things took a drastic turn for the better when I decided to inject some real life into this beast. Here's what I did when I was at my heaviest best (90kg at 162.5cm tall) at the time of training in such a way.

You pick a d/bell you can do 20 reps with and you aim to do 8x8. Ah, but there's two ways you can do this and I do prefer one over the other. But before we get to that, l want to stress that the rest intervals between these eight sets is going to be no longer than exactly 30 seconds, period! We're going to fry our muscles so deep that you're going to feel muscles that you didn't know you had within the following 36 hours post training. To say that the long head (the meaty part) of your triceps would be screaming with pain or your teres major making you feel as if you've stuffed a book under your armpits would be an understatement indeed.

Now to the way I prefer to blast these combination of muscles and to the way I found best in stimulating them deep within.









Okay, 8x8 is what is required. 30 seconds break is maximum time taken between sets. What I like to do here is to actually perform the full 20 reps on my first set, that's right. All the way to 20 reps (which = to 20RM), i.e. 100% effort!

Post the first set of 20, your reps would take a sharp dive south which is predictable and understandable. As long as you don't go below 8 reps irrespective of come what may then all would be fine. That means if you have to introduce some rest-pause reps in order to finish the set then so be it. However I don't think it should get to that though, not with a weight you could manage 20 reps with.

The 30 seconds rest intervals are going to give you about a 73%-75% recovery in peak power output through the resynthesis of Creatine Phosphate (CP), which is just enough to get the job done whilst simultaneously placing your muscle fibres under enough stress to cause some serious and new adaptation to occur. That in bodybuilding language = more muscle mass!

What should you feel after the 8 sets are done and dusted? You should feel as if someone has just hit you with a 4x2 across both your back and chest areas, not to mention the long head of your triceps and your serratus anterior&#8230;those muscles on your sides that look like a classic hand held fan.

So here's the plan. Walk into the gym and do nothing but these 8 sets for your upper body, then perform squats if you wish for your lower body and get the hell out of that iron dungeon. You're well and truly done for that day with only these two exercises!

Give it a go and let me know if you think this was more of a chest exercise; a back exercise, or more of a near total upper body exercise as the squat is a near total lower body one.






Fadi.


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## anna1 (Mar 22, 2014)

Fadi65 said:


> Even though I've decided to write this in the "Getting Started" section of the forum, this is as much of an advance exercise as any..., only that the advanced lifters seem to have forgotten about it. So for the advance lifters on UK-M, this is simply a reminder of one of the best exercises you may not be doing today.
> 
> Ask anyone about an exercise to help you build some serious mass on your lower body, and inevitably the squat would be highly recommended. Well, if your wish is to add some serious muscles on your upper torso, then one of the old favourites of bodybuilders is the D/bell pullovers across a bench.
> 
> ...


 Good afternoon Fadi ! Hope you're well

so how often can you repeat this routine ? Is it something you recommend on a daily basis ?

x


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## Fadi (Dec 14, 2010)

anna1 said:


> Good afternoon Fadi ! Hope you're well
> 
> so how often can you repeat this routine ? Is it something you recommend on a daily basis ?
> 
> x


 Hello Anna,

I know it's approaching 2:00pm where you are, so good afternoon to you. It's nearly 10:00pm here in Sydney.

The pullover is such an effective exercise, so much so that neither the beginner nor the advance know into which workout to slot it in..., as it covers so many muscles. To me it's like the snatch grip deadlift, yet another movement that also covers so many muscles, hitting the hamstring in the most effective and safe way I know of. As for your question...

I'd perform this exercise twice a week, using different rep ranges, and I'd include it with both back as well as on chest days. Like I said, using wide range of reps between these two workouts. So if in one workout you opted for sets of 8 reps for example, I would use 20 reps during the other workout, then I would alternate the rep range as I'd also alternate the body part this exercise is used with.

Thank you Anna.

Fadi.


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## Uryens (Aug 10, 2017)

Hi Fadi,

Thanks again for this very informative article, I knew that Arnold attributed a great part of his epic chest development to the Db pull over, I have full confidence in you so I'm gonna give it a go this afternoon and will let you know.

I understand that it's pretty late in Sidney so you will know tomorrow I believe ^^ until then I wish you a good night


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

anna1 said:


> so how often can you repeat this routine ? Is it something you recommend on a daily basis ?


 In no way wanting to speak for Fadi but I just thought I'd comment that generally there is no muscle building exercise that's a particularly good idea to do every day. In that the basic process is to stimulate the muscle to grow with training but then to allow time for the muscle to repair and grow, with a 48 hour minimum more usually being recommended for this.

(There are exceptions but this is a good basic rule I think.)


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## anna1 (Mar 22, 2014)

Fadi65 said:


> Hello Anna,
> 
> I know it's approaching 2:00pm where you are, so good afternoon to you. It's nearly 10:00pm here in Sydney.
> 
> ...


 Thank you Fadi for your prompt reply at such a late hour for you !

I had this argument with someone at the gym because he argued I didnt have to aggregate the specific exercice on back days as its best for chest . ( I also do it for shoulders some times )

dont really need the studies as I can FEEL what muscles I am working while doing it .

Thank you for posting this , I 'll rub it in the face of whoever bugs me again at the gym 

all the best Fadi !

Have a wonderful night

x


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## anna1 (Mar 22, 2014)

Ultrasonic said:


> In no way wanting to speak for Fadi but I just thought I'd comment that generally there is no muscle building exercise that's a particularly good idea to do every day. In that the basic process is to stimulate the muscle to grow with training but then to allow time for the muscle to repair and grow, with a 48 hour minimum more usually being recommended for this.
> 
> (There are exceptions but this is a good basic rule I think.)


 Thank you , yes I thought so , just making sure .. :thumb

edit that , I am so confused about whether I should squat everyday to improve my squats so maybe the same principle applies here ?

x


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## nWo (Mar 25, 2014)

Good post mate. I can't do dumbbell pullovers unfortunately as they don't agree with my rotator cuffs even when I go very light. I'm a huge fan of standing cable pullovers though, and I've actually found them to be far superior for building lat width than standard pulldowns/pullups, for me.

Good to see Vince Gironda's methods getting a mention by way of 8x8 training, I'm a huge fan of his methods. Bit off-topic but if you've not tried Vince's version of 5x5 as a training style then you should. Given that it's short rests and around 75% 1RM, the weights go up surprisingly fast as the weeks go by, plus you get a nice pump, bit of a cardio element especially on big exercises, AND it's fun.


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## SimpleLimit (Aug 13, 2016)

@Fadi

Should this be an exercise to finish off your gym session with ?


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## Fadi (Dec 14, 2010)

SimpleLimit said:


> @Fadi
> 
> Should this be an exercise to finish off your gym session with ?


 Just do it, and when you do it, you'd know best when to do it.


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## BioSynth (Sep 17, 2014)

Was reading ukm between sets earlier and saw this so threw in a round at the end. I'll be lying on the couch for the rest of the evening.... Looking forward to upping weight on these!


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## Uryens (Aug 10, 2017)

Ok so as promised, here is my report of Fadi protocol for dumbell pull over.

So I did it at the end mid of my push training - so after chest and shoulders (2 exercice each) but before the tricpeps, I pick a conservative approach with a 22kg dumbell, the 20 rep felt ok and I decided to go with that since I was already a bit tired and I always prefer to start too light than too heavy.

So the 8x8 was not draining but really felt the muscle and a bit of pump.

As far as it goes for me, here are the muscle that I have felt the more :

- lats and upper back ;

- triceps ;

- chest (little activation to be fair).

So for me it activates more the back than the chest but that might be due to a lack of knowledge for my part or maybe since my chest was already tired, the back took over, or maybe all of that.

I took a video of a 9th set after I did all that, will try to post it if I manage to mask my face (wear a hoodie but was not enough :mellow: )

So, yeah it really activates a lot of muscle and in that sense the qualification of Fadi - "upper body squat" - is well given.

I was pretty drain after the 8 sets, not destroyed but that's due to the fact that I deliberatly took a weight rather light since I did not practice this exercice a lot and also I'm really tired from an heavy week at work (go to hell due diligence  ).

Would recommend that you give this a shot guys.

As always @Fadi thanks for a great exercice and protocol.


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## anna1 (Mar 22, 2014)

I did it as part of back workout and I ' m hurting all over . Next time I'll go a little heavier .

Cant upload pics though ! Boo hooo ! 

good morning / good afternoon all !

x


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## Eddias (Dec 21, 2015)

@Fadi thanks yes a forgotton exercise, what is your opinion on the the machine pullover?

I do the DB version but remember a pull over machine back in my old gym that i use to really enjoy


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## Jordan08 (Feb 17, 2014)

Pull day today, I start with rows and i would do 20 reps method after rows. Has been more than 5 years since i have done this exercise. Thanks for the push.


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## Fadi (Dec 14, 2010)

Eddias said:


> @Fadi thanks yes a forgotton exercise, what is your opinion on the the machine pullover?
> 
> I do the DB version but remember a pull over machine back in my old gym that i use to really enjoy


 The pullover machine is simply brilliant mate, as it targets virtually the same muscles the d/bell does, however it does so over a greater range of motion. Since many people have an issue with their shoulder joints/rotator cuff muscles, gym owners tend to forgo such a machine, leaving it up to the individual to choose such an old school exercise using free weights instead.









Another machine or bench, that is also frowned upon by some gym owners would be the hyperextension bench. And to be frank with you, I don't blame them. Because the main problem begins and ends with the very name of this bench, i.e. "hyper". It should never have been called that, as no one in their right mind would ever perform a hyper-extension, but rather only a back extension to a point where their upper body is in perfect alignment with their lower, creating a perfectly straight line and not "hyper". Invisible to the naked eye, is the hyperextension force that takes place deep within your spinal column, leading to some unnecessary and easily preventable disk compression. I know damn well that I've digressed (perhaps more than just a bit), but this exercise was part of my daily routine (done 8x/week) when I was Olympic weightlifting. I did it whilst either placing a barbell on top of the lower portion of my neck muscles (not suggesting anyone does that), or simply by hugging a weight disk to my chest. The coaches ensured (from day one) that no one was to ever go beyond that straight body line I mentioned above. Hence, I am sharing this critical information here with UK-M.















No to the one on the left and yes to the one on the right.















One way to overcome this shoulder pain, which by the way is exasperated by too much of a good thing (in the way the muscles are stretched over a greater range of motion), would be for that trainee to restrict such range of motion and limit it to whatever range their shoulders feel comfortable with. After all, no sane lifter would want to smash the muscles at the expense of damaging the connective tissues.

Cheers mate.

Fadi.


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## anna1 (Mar 22, 2014)

Fadi said:


> The pullover machine is simply brilliant mate, as it targets virtually the same muscles the d/bell does, however it does so over a greater range of motion. Since many people have an issue with their shoulder joints/rotator cuff muscles, gym owners tend to forgo such a machine, leaving it up to the individual to choose such an old school exercise using free weights instead.
> 
> 
> View attachment 146600
> ...


 Good evening Fadi !

Thank you for that , call me daft but I didnt fully comprehend everything .

When I do the hyper extensions , I dont go over the " alignment " , nor do I stay below it , right ?

x


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## Fadi (Dec 14, 2010)

anna1 said:


> Good evening Fadi !
> 
> Thank you for that , call me daft but I didnt fully comprehend everything .
> 
> ...


 100% correct. And you're not "daft", you're very switched on and you're doing well.

Cheers Anna.

Fadi.


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## anna1 (Mar 22, 2014)

Fadi said:


> 100% correct. And you're not "daft", you're very switched on and you're doing well.
> 
> Cheers Anna.
> 
> Fadi.


 Thank you Fadi ! Hope you're having a wonderful evening

x


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## Fadi (Dec 14, 2010)

anna1 said:


> Thank you Fadi ! Hope you're having a wonderful evening
> 
> x


 Yes thank you Anna. It's 19 degrees now at 11pm, and I'm sitting at work "talking" to you, what could be better huh  !

X


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

I've never understood why pullovers fell out of fashion, because they are not only excellent mass builders as you say, but are also fun to do and don't require complicated or expensive equipment.

Still, great to see that some people still do it and recommend it.


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## Mingster (Mar 25, 2011)

I already include Hypers in my workouts, but it's a while since I used pullovers. Might just be time for a reintroduction.


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## swole troll (Apr 15, 2015)

kirill sarychev stated in interview "the young athletes which skip their sets of hyperextensions are future paraplegics"

i do neglect them myself (post meet going to address this) but i think hyperextensions and reverse hypers pay dividends in the long run to those that squat and deadlift heavy

i like to bang out high rep sets of reverse hypers on the seal row bench

never got on with pullovers, like @I'mNotAPervert! said they really aggravate my shoulders


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## Eddias (Dec 21, 2015)

swole troll said:


> kirill sarychev stated in interview "the young athletes which skip their sets of hyperextensions are future paraplegics"
> 
> i do neglect them myself (post meet going to address this) but i think hyperextensions and reverse hypers pay dividends in the long run to those that squat and deadlift heavy
> 
> ...


 I am finding cable pullovers aggravate my shoulder less, something like this


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## anna1 (Mar 22, 2014)

Eddias said:


> I am finding cable pullovers aggravate my shoulder less, something like this


 Wish I had enough space at my gym for that , looks wicked

x


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## Eddias (Dec 21, 2015)

anna1 said:


> Wish I had enough space at my gym for that , looks wicked
> 
> x


 guessing you have not got a cable seated row in your gym, its worth going on Youtube to look at alternative Cable pullovers, I set mine up different to this on the actual cable machine you were using for your triceps. works just as well and you can lay on the floor to do them


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## anna1 (Mar 22, 2014)

Eddias said:


> guessing you have not got a cable seated row in your gym, its worth going on Youtube to look at alternative Cable pullovers, I set mine up different to this on the actual cable machine you were using for your triceps. works just as well and you can lay on the floor to do them


 Yeah , I was thinking that now . When I'll find a quiet morning to drag a bench there or try it on the floor

x


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## Eddias (Dec 21, 2015)

anna1 said:


> Yeah , I was thinking that now . When I'll find a quiet morning to drag a bench there or try it on the floor
> 
> x


 




this is okay accept when you go heavy and it drags you across the floor.

other option






you just have to play about with what you have to make it work


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## anna1 (Mar 22, 2014)

Eddias said:


> this is okay accept when you go heavy and it drags you across the floor.
> 
> other option
> 
> ...


 Haha , that would make an epic video if the cable starts dragging me backwards 

thank you


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## Vinny (Nov 18, 2012)

Ooooo very good read, Thanks @Fadi .

Will give these a good on my PULL training day.


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## Chelsea (Sep 19, 2009)

I do dumbell pullovers weekly on back days, love it.


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## Pancake' (Aug 30, 2012)

@Fadi What do you believe to be the most optimal rep range for the db pullover?

I have them in both rotations of my A and B split,

so I'm always doing them in favour of expanding my ribcage, trying to create the best vacuum possible.

Ive been performing them after pressing work and been working in the 3 x 10, 1 x 20 (20rep squat principle) and I was thinking 2 x 25 - 50 reps sets. So from all angles. I'm going to experiment.

Im using it on the basis to just completely stretch the sh1t out my lats, chest, serratus after, I've done a lot of heavy low - moderate rep pressing.

I have some incredible doms in my triceps today from these, every time I straighten my arm.


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## Fadi (Dec 14, 2010)

Starz said:


> @Fadi What do you believe to be the most optimal rep range for the db pullover?
> 
> I have them in both rotations of my A and B split,
> 
> ...


 The most optimal rep range is one that is found on neither end of the rep range spectrum. In simple terms, this means you don't really want to go so damn heavy as to throw the focus on neural-efficiency dominant training, i.e. reps below 5, where your joints might pay a heavy price also. And you don't want to go beyond (say) 30 reps, where the weight (by necessity) would become so damn light that you'd become a robotic machine going through the motions, minus all the real mind-muscle connections. With 30 reps, you will optimise on increasing capillary/mitochondria density, as well as stimulating the hell out of all (and yes I do mean *all*) your muscle fibers, due to fatiguing the hell out of them Champ.

I hope I've answered the question, by giving you a very wide rep range to "play" with.

All power to you and thank you for the question.

Cheers.


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## BioSynth (Sep 17, 2014)

Been doing these for nearly a month now and by far my favourite excerise. Amazing how it hits perhaps untrained muscles. Went from 20kg being a challenge 8x3 on the first attempt to now 30kg 8x5 within a month and will be upping to 35kg on Sunday. Can really feel it working.


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## Pancake' (Aug 30, 2012)

Fadi said:


> The most optimal rep range is one that is found on neither end of the rep range spectrum. In simple terms, this means you don't really want to go so damn heavy as to throw the focus on neural-efficiency dominant training, i.e. reps below 5, where your joints might pay a heavy price also. And you don't want to go beyond (say) 30 reps, where the weight (by necessity) would become so damn light that you'd become a robotic machine going through the motions, minus all the real mind-muscle connections. With 30 reps, you will optimise on increasing capillary/mitochondria density, as well as stimulating the hell out of all (and yes I do mean *all*) your muscle fibers, due to fatiguing the hell out of them Champ.
> 
> I hope I've answered the question, by giving you a very wide rep range to "play" with.
> 
> ...


 You sure have Fadi, I agree with you, makes perfect sense thinking about it now. Thanks


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## Pancake' (Aug 30, 2012)

@Fadi Do you see any real difference and benefit performing them on a Decline bench? I've only just became aware of this variation.


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## Fadi (Dec 14, 2010)

Starz said:


> @Fadi Do you see any real difference and benefit performing them on a Decline bench? I've only just became aware of this variation.


 I've never done them using a decline bench. However now that you've mentioned it, it makes perfect sense to me that by utilising such an angle, more emphasis would be thrown onto the latissimus dorsi muscles, as they'd be placed in a disadvantageous position from gravity's pull, having to work extra hard in order to "pull" the load up and over one's head.

Does that make some sense to you Sir?

If you think I've got a valid point, and do choose to perform them at such an angle, my only advice to you would be to decrease the load and increase the reps.

Cheers.


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## nWo (Mar 25, 2014)

anna1 said:


> Yeah , I was thinking that now . When I'll find a quiet morning to drag a bench there or try it on the floor
> 
> x


 Mega late reply, but you can do them standing as well, pretty much exact same movement. I prefer to go with more range of motion at the top though to really stretch my lats out.


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## anna1 (Mar 22, 2014)

I'mNotAPervert! said:


> Mega late reply, but you can do them standing as well, pretty much exact same movement.


 Thank you Perv !

I do that but with a bar instead at the end of every back day .

You think this could substitute pullovers ?

x


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## nWo (Mar 25, 2014)

anna1 said:


> Thank you Perv !
> 
> I do that but with a bar instead at the end of every back day .
> 
> ...


 Yeah, I use a bar as well as it happens! Prefer a bar tbh as you don't have to stabilise your grip, can just focus 100% on the lats then. I've never done dumbbell pullovers really as, as I said earlier in the thread, they hurt my shoulders. For the lats, cables are probably better than dumbbells IMO as you can only get so much ROM with a dumbbell, whereas you can go all the way up and down with a cable.


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## anna1 (Mar 22, 2014)

I'mNotAPervert! said:


> Yeah, I use a bar as well as it happens! Prefer a bar tbh as you don't have to stabilise your grip, can just focus 100% on the lats then. I've never done dumbbell pullovers really as, as I said earlier in the thread, they hurt my shoulders. For the lats, cables are probably better than dumbbells IMO as you can only get so much ROM with a dumbbell, whereas you can go all the way up and down with a cable.


 I will try this but I'm thinking with my back against the machine to see if I get the same " stretching out" feeling I get with pullovers that I really like


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## nWo (Mar 25, 2014)

anna1 said:


> I will try this but I'm thinking with my back against the machine to see if I get the same " stretching out" feeling I get with pullovers that I really like


 You won't get the cable over your head then :lol:


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## anna1 (Mar 22, 2014)

I'mNotAPervert! said:


> You won't get the cable over your head then :lol:


 Was just thinking that :lol:


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## nWo (Mar 25, 2014)

anna1 said:


> Was just thinking that :lol:


 Honestly though, just try it facing and see how you like it. The more you bend over in your standing position as well stand stand away from the machine, you can get more of a ROM and stretch at the top.


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## anna1 (Mar 22, 2014)

I'mNotAPervert! said:


> Honestly though, just try it facing and see how you like it. The more you bend over in your standing position as well stand stand away from the machine, you can get more of a ROM and stretch at the top.


 Thursday is back day ! Will post pics and provide feedback !

x


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## nWo (Mar 25, 2014)

anna1 said:


> Thursday is back day ! *Will post pics* and provide feedback !
> 
> x


 From the back, please. Helps me judge your form better, see :thumbup1:


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## anna1 (Mar 22, 2014)

I'mNotAPervert! said:


> From the back, please. Helps me judge your form better, see :thumbup1:


 Tried this today by the way . I think I prefer that version than the one with the bar .

Though its a great variation I dont think it can substitute pullovers . I'll just do both

x


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## nWo (Mar 25, 2014)

anna1 said:


> Tried this today by the way . I think I prefer that version than the one with the bar .
> 
> Though its a great variation I dont think it can substitute pullovers . I'll just do both
> 
> x


 Fair enough, I mean I'll always argue that the cable version is superior because the position of the humerus in relation to the torso is the same on all pullover movements and you can adjust the stretch angle by adjusting your body position on the cable version, plus the range of motion is a lot better and the tension is constant - however, there's no accounting for personal preference and one variation of a movement will always "feel" better to one person than it will another because of their individual biomechanics :thumbup1:


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