# Protein into glycogen????



## TH0R (Aug 15, 2007)

After some advice from forum members (con & hilly) I've decided to change my

diet to a carbs first thing in morning and around workouts, then protein/fats only

at all other times.

I'm having 2x hopeful bw in protein, 420g, and around 150g fats pd, probably 150g carbs as well

Now its just dawned on me, whats stopping the protein replacing the carbs and

replenishing the glycogen, hence my body not using fat as a primary source when

not working out??

I'm on an 8 wk cycle/blast at same time and was unsure about calories as well, 3600

is a maintaining number when just on a cruise dose, so I thought I'd start with

this and see how I go, any thoughts

:beer:

PS, can anyone recommend foods I can have apart from eggs, cheese, steak

I'm thinking of plate fillers, ie steak and ??, chicken and ??


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## big (Sep 14, 2004)

tel3563 said:


> I'm having 2x hopeful bw in protein, 420g, and around 150g fats pd, probably 150g carbs as well
> 
> Now its just dawned on me, whats stopping the protein replacing the carbs and
> 
> ...


The fact that you are consuming enough fats and carbs to fuel you, so your body doesn't need to convert protein to fuel

Conversion of protein to glucose is expensive for the body to do, so it won't do it unless it needs to

Plus if you're lifting heavy, your body will need that protein to rebuild muscle

So if you're worried about your body storing the fat and instead using the protein to fuel you, stop worrying now cos it's about as likely as a swimmer growing an extra lung at the fat/carb levels you're consuming. Of course, if you dropped your carbs and fats down to levels where your body needs extra calories, then it would likely happen, particularly if you don't have much bodyfat and are doing loads of exercise. Cos then you aren't giving the body much choice.

It's more likely that you will excrete any excess protein. So get some p1ss sticks and measure the protein content in your wee. I suspect they do this regularly at your old folks home anyway 

Also be aware that you will get the 160lb half-rep 80kg bench brigade who will tell you that 420g of protein is FAR too much


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## big (Sep 14, 2004)

tel3563 said:


> PS, can anyone recommend foods I can have apart from eggs, cheese, steak
> 
> I'm thinking of plate fillers, ie steak and ??, chicken and ??


Steak and more steak?

How about green veg

Sweet potato mash if it's in your carby meal

Leefy salad with balsamic vinegar dressing

When I was doing higher fat, I liked steak and scrambled eggs personally. Now that's a meal of champions


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## Prodiver (Nov 14, 2008)

Carbs first thing in the morning? Let me know how fat you get...

If you don't eat enough carbs and fats your bod will use some of your protein for energy.

If you eat too much carbs your body will store any surplus calories as fat.


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## sizar (Nov 13, 2008)

prodiver what's wrong with eating carb in the morning along with protein ?


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## TH0R (Aug 15, 2007)

big said:


> It's more likely that you will excrete any excess protein. So get some p1ss sticks and measure the protein content in your wee. I suspect they do this regularly at your old folks home anyway
> 
> Also be aware that you will get the 160lb half-rep 80kg bench brigade who will tell you that 420g of protein is FAR too much


Cheers Big,

regards p1ss sticks, what will they tell me, I've got too much, not enough, and

what would I do having this info, reduce protein intake??

I've been on 360g for months anyway, so not much change anyway, do you

think the macro split is about right?? or should I be going for more fats and upping

cals a bit due to cycle??

:beer:


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## TH0R (Aug 15, 2007)

Prodiver said:


> Carbs first thing in the morning? Let me know how fat you get...
> 
> If you don't eat enough carbs and fats your bod will use some of your protein for energy.
> 
> If you eat too much carbs your body will store any surplus calories as fat.


Not sure what your getting at Prov??

Of course there will be fats and protein in there, I normally have 5/6 large scrambled

eggs with 3 sml slices wholemeal toast with butter

whats wrong with carbs on a morning??


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## sizar (Nov 13, 2008)

thats around 3500-4000 calories .. sounds about right if you want to gain


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## Lois_Lane (Jul 21, 2009)

Higher fat and perhaps a little higher carbs and less protein IMO.


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## rs007 (May 28, 2007)

sizar said:


> prodiver what's wrong with eating carb in the morning along with protein ?


In the real world absolutely nothing.

I was just having scrambled egg for breakfst, then carbs later - just last couple of weeks have decided to have a portion of oats and a protein shake upon waking, suddenly I am coming in rapidly...


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## big (Sep 14, 2004)

tel3563 said:


> Cheers Big,
> 
> regards p1ss sticks, what will they tell me, I've got too much, not enough, and
> 
> ...


Yep, the sticks will tell you if you have excess protein in your wee, and if so, how much (as in a colour scale). It's not a perfect gauge as to whether you are consuming the right amount of protein, but IMO it's reasonable. If it states there is a lot of excess, then back off the protein and up the carbs or fats. If it states there is no excess, you could even try upping the protein some more cos your body is using it. If it states there's a tiny excess but upper end of normal range, that's not a bad place to be IMO. They're worth testing regularly as they will tell you other things, such as if you're at all dehydrated, and if you have urine infections etc.

Regarding macro splits, I think you've got it right. As for quantities, it depends on the goals of the cycle.


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## sizar (Nov 13, 2008)

coming in rapidly sorry to be silly ..meaining becoming fat ? or growing .. even when i was dieting .. i was on 100g carb a day 50 at breakfast and 50 post workout .. i got some decent result. so i don't see why would eating some oats in the morning would make you fat lol


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## rs007 (May 28, 2007)

sizar said:


> coming in rapidly sorry to be silly ..meaining becoming fat ? or growing .. even when i was dieting .. i was on 100g carb a day 50 at breakfast and 50 post workout .. i got some decent result. so i don't see why would eating some oats in the morning would make you fat lol


Fat running off quickly.

I am not saying this is BECAUSE of having oats in the morning - that would be silly - what I am saying is that it clearly isn't hurting me, if I am rapidly dropping fat.

I actually find the notion of all this high fat sh1t laughable.

Oh don't get me wrong, some fats are def required, and I am not saying high fat diets can't bring a person in - of course they can, there are so many ways to skin a cat - its the blind allegiance and cries of "where are your fats" every time someone posts a diet, that fvcks me off. The bandwagon floweth over...


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## Big Dawg (Feb 24, 2008)

I don't know what prodiver is getting at really; he always says to wait a couple of hours before having brekkie so your body uses some of its body fat for fuel, but to say having carbs upon waking will make you fat (which I think is what he is hinting at) is ridiculous tbh. As Rams says, many ways to skin a cat. I've gained leanly eating around 150g carbs a day and eating 350g carbs a day - fairly moderate to most but high to me (on around 4300cals at the time). I've also lost fat eating anywhere between 0 and 300g carbs a day and I've always perceived myself as carb insensitive so I think people are perhaps more scared of carbs than they should be.

That being said, if I ever get back into training again it'll be mainly carbs around brekkie and PWO, though after a while I find it hard to gain unless I up the carbs.


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## sizar (Nov 13, 2008)

rs007 said:


> Fat running off quickly.
> 
> I am not saying this is BECAUSE of having oats in the morning - that would be silly - what I am saying is that it clearly isn't hurting me, if I am rapidly dropping fat.
> 
> ...


to be honest i know everyone diets differently some people use moderate carb low fat and high protein and so on but too have too much fat it will still make you fat. i think the best way to eat sensible and see how your body is growing monitor everything .. personally i don't know how anyone can eat more than 300g carb a day .. i struggle to hit 300g :confused1:


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## Big Dawg (Feb 24, 2008)

sizar said:


> to be honest i know everyone diets differently some people use moderate carb low fat and high protein and so on but too have too much fat it will still make you fat. i think the best way to eat sensible and see how your body is growing monitor everything .. personally i don't know how anyone can eat more than 300g carb a day .. i struggle to hit 300g :confused1:


100g oats and 1 banana for brekkie = 90g carbs

100g rice and a few rigs of pineapple for meal 2 = 95g carbs

Same again for meal 3 = 95g carbs

PWO 80g dex = 80g carbs

PPWO large sweet potato and banana = 120g carbs

= 480g carbs and that's only in 4 meals and a PWO shake


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## TH0R (Aug 15, 2007)

Are these the ones Big?

http://www.medisave.co.uk/urinalysis-urine-reagent-strips-c-918_847.html

could drop protein to 360 as I've been at that for some time

up fats to 200, carbs same 200

1440+1800+800=4040

I've actually dropped weight on 4.4k calories before when cardio was upped, I'm planning on 20 mins

after a workout and 45 mins on rest days which are normally eod

Rams, is there some credence behind no carbs in morning?? I ask as you say you just had

scrambled eggs till eating carbs later on


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## Prodiver (Nov 14, 2008)

tel3563 said:


> Not sure what your getting at Prov??
> 
> Of course there will be fats and protein in there, I normally have 5/6 large scrambled
> 
> ...


If you eat any carbs immediately/soon after getting up, your bod will become accustomed to getting fed and will not tap into your fat stores.

If you expend a significant amount of energy before eating, such as by travelling to work, doing cardio or working out, your bod will get used to using your fat reserves for energy first and efficiently.

After, you can make full use of a good complex breakfast.



sizar said:


> thats around 3500-4000 calories .. sounds about right if you want to gain


3500-4000 calories of carbs - protein - fat..? Yje number of carbs is irrelevant. *There's no point in consuming carbs for their own sake - or even counting them!*

You cannot possibly determine how many carbs a day you need as your daily energy expenditure will vary greatly. Even the weather temperature will alter it.

The one thing you can and must calculate is how much protein you need.

Then eat some good fats and balance your carb intake so you don't get porky.

There's absolutely no need to put on fat to put on lean muscle.


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## sizar (Nov 13, 2008)

AlasTTTair said:


> 100g oats and 1 banana for brekkie = 90g carbs
> 
> 100g rice and a few rigs of pineapple for meal 2 = 95g carbs
> 
> ...


Yeah i call that dirty eating tho .. i know people with these sort of diet. eat a banana with every meal .. what's the point ? benefits ?


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## sizar (Nov 13, 2008)

Prodiver said:


> If you eat any carbs immediately/soon after getting up, your bod will become accustomed to getting fed and will not tap into your fat stores.
> 
> If you expend a significant amount of energy before eating, such as by travelling to work, doing cardio or working out, your bod will get used to using your fat reserves for energy first and efficiently.
> 
> ...


i wasn't saying 3500 calories from carb .. you totally misunderstood my post mate. i calculated the ratio tel provided on top.. that's all . i'm not a big fan of high carb.. but i'm not big a fan of high fat either. either way carb or fat both are calories .. extra calories will be stored as fat.


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## big (Sep 14, 2004)

tel3563 said:


> Are these the ones Big?
> 
> http://www.medisave.co.uk/urinalysis-urine-reagent-strips-c-918_847.html


Yep, those look fine

I got Bayer ones, but they look reassuringly similar


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## Prodiver (Nov 14, 2008)

sizar said:


> i wasn't saying 3500 calories from carb .. you totally misunderstood my post mate. i calculated the ratio tel provided on top.. that's all . i'm not a big fan of high carb.. but i'm not big a fan of high fat either. either way carb or fat both are calories .. extra calories will be stored as fat.


Sorry sizar - I didn't misunderstand. My point was that the number of calories is irrelevant.

Too many guys keep adding extra food, usually carbs, just to achieve a certain level of calories.

At risk of being slated I'll say again: it's your carb intake, not your fat intake that controls your fat storage.


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## TH0R (Aug 15, 2007)

big said:


> Yep, those look fine
> 
> I got Bayer ones, but they look reassuringly similar


thanks bud:thumbup1:


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## Big Dawg (Feb 24, 2008)

sizar said:


> Yeah i call that dirty eating tho .. i know people with these sort of diet. eat a banana with every meal .. what's the point ? benefits ?


LOL at fruit being dirty! If someone's a genuine ecto then they'll need to hammer the cals and carbs to gain weight mate. It's only dirty to you cos you gain fat easily.


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## sizar (Nov 13, 2008)

Prodiver said:


> Sorry sizar - I didn't misunderstand. My point was that the number of calories is irrelevant.
> 
> Too many guys keep adding extra food, usually carbs, just to achieve a certain level of calories.
> 
> At risk of being slated I'll say again: it's your carb intake, not your fat intake that controls your fat storage.


mate i appericiate your knowledge on everything and but i can't get my head around only EXTRA CARBS makes you fat.. surely extra fat will still be stored as bodyfat? otherwise what happens ? comes out in the other end ? any studies to back this up ? i'm just interested maybe is something i don't know so please share your knowledge.


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## Prodiver (Nov 14, 2008)

I've been using protein sticks on and off for some years, and support their use.

But I discovered that in good condition and/or on gear you have to consume a pretty large protein intake before a significant rise shows.

By this time you're probably eating an excess of protein which is being turned into expensive energy.

But you'll certainly be getting enough protein and the sticks will help stop any dmage to your kidneys...


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## sizar (Nov 13, 2008)

AlasTTTair said:


> LOL at fruit being dirty! If someone's a genuine ecto then they'll need to hammer the cals and carbs to gain weight mate. It's only dirty to you cos you gain fat easily.


i know some people need to loads to gain but surely there is no need to eat a banana with every meal is there ? just for the sake of calories .. again if someone can't gain muscle couple of extra banana and some fruit will not make them gain muscle anyway .. if they gain weight because of extra carb then it probably be fat


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## freddee (Mar 2, 2009)

big said:


> The fact that you are consuming enough fats and carbs to fuel you, so your body doesn't need to convert protein to fuel
> 
> Conversion of protein to glucose is expensive for the body to do, so it won't do it unless it needs to
> 
> ...


Big I have Keto stick do you mean those ?? or are there other uranalosis stix for protein content that can be obtained??


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## Prodiver (Nov 14, 2008)

sizar said:


> mate i appericiate your knowledge on everything and but i can't get my head around only EXTRA CARBS makes you fat.. surely extra fat will still be stored as bodyfat? otherwise what happens ? comes out in the other end ? any studies to back this up ? i'm just interested maybe is something i don't know so please share your knowledge.


The nutrition cycle is hugely complex and even now not totally understood, but the digestion of carbs, fats and proteins is different.

Have a look on Wikipedia (it's not totally trustworthy but a pretty good approach): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nutrition, etc...

"Carbohydrates are not essential to the human diet, as they are relatively low in vitamins and minerals, and energy can be provided from excess fats and proteins in the diet."

We have only eaten significant amounts of carbs for the last 7000 years or so, and processed carbs for the last 100. For several million years as hunter gatherers we ate mainly protein and fats from game, eggs, fish, some nuts, fruit, some uncultivated roots and occasional honey. 7000 years is negligible in evolutionary terms.

All excess calories are stored as bodyfat, but constant ingestion of carbs, especially simple carbs which provide easy fast energy, discourages the body from mobilizing fats efficiently and quickly. The fastest way to shed excess bodyfat is not to cut out fats but reduce carbs.


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## big (Sep 14, 2004)

freddee said:


> Big I have Keto stick do you mean those ?? or are there other uranalosis stix for protein content that can be obtained??


You need multistix mate

LIke the ones tel posted the link to

It's possible your keto sticks are multistix - many multi will measure ketones as well

If your keto sticks literally only measure excess ketones, then you need to get the multistix like tel posted up


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## freddee (Mar 2, 2009)

Cheers, well mine arn't those I think they just measure ketones, but I know what to get for next time, which ones would you go for ,I mean there are some with nine in one, they must measure everything lol


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## big (Sep 14, 2004)

freddee said:


> Cheers, well mine arn't those I think they just measure ketones, but I know what to get for next time, which ones would you go for ,I mean there are some with nine in one, they must measure everything lol


I get the Bayer ones, but the ones tel posted up are fine

As long as they measure ketones, protein, whether you are dehydrated, anything else is a bonus really


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## freddee (Mar 2, 2009)

ye, these I have are Bayer just got them out of Boots, I might get the biggies and go all scientific lol, I am just going into CKD for real today, but have been a good couple of weeks lowering my carbs slowly and raising my fats, and have done a few checks but havn't hit deep purple yet, I have actually shed quite a few lbs but I know most of that will be water, and can see the results, it helped lowering my salt intake.....


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## dan2004 (May 8, 2007)

Prodiver said:


> *If you eat any carbs immediately/soon after getting up, your bod will become accustomed to getting fed and will not tap into your fat stores.*
> 
> *If you expend a significant amount of energy before eating, such as by travelling to work, doing cardio or working out, your bod will get used to using your fat reserves for energy first and efficiently.*
> 
> ...


This is currently my method of cutting my body fat , and i have to say its working great. I prefer to listen to my body rather than slam the food down. I wake a 5:15 and eat at 7:00-07:15. This way allowing the usage of stored fat/energy before topping on my daily carbs.


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## sizar (Nov 13, 2008)

Prodiver said:


> The nutrition cycle is hugely complex and even now not totally understood, but the digestion of carbs, fats and proteins is different.
> 
> Have a look on Wikipedia (it's not totally trustworthy but a pretty good approach): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nutrition, etc...
> 
> ...


agree with that mate. as i have done keto style diet my self with great result will use again when i be dieting again. but to keep carb away all the time and live off fat .. i don't think is a healthy option .. surely all that fat intake over long period of time has impact on cholesterol level.


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

Prodiver said:


> Sorry sizar - I didn't misunderstand. My point was that the number of calories is irrelevant.
> 
> Too many guys keep adding extra food, usually carbs, just to achieve a certain level of calories.
> 
> At risk of being slated I'll say again: it's your carb intake, not your fat intake that controls your fat storage.


Why are calories irrelevant?


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## hilly (Jan 19, 2008)

tel3563 said:


> After some advice from forum members (con & hilly) I've decided to change my
> 
> diet to a carbs first thing in morning and around workouts, then protein/fats only
> 
> ...


I like it mate altho on training days i would take the carbs to 200 - 250 split between breaky, pre and pwo-shake and a ppwo meal maybe.

then on training days have them at 150.

also like to see a little cardio 3-4 x per week just for 30 mins if you could.

fillers for meat only meals hmmmm - using mince make a bolagnaise etc without the pasta. then just meat and lotsa green veg etc.

protein pancakes just eggs and powder.


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## TH0R (Aug 15, 2007)

hilly said:


> I like it mate altho on training days i would take the carbs to 200 - 250 split between breaky, pre and pwo-shake and a ppwo meal maybe.
> 
> then on training days have them at 150.
> 
> ...


I don't have a pre workout shake, mostly train on a morning about 90mins

after breakfast, presume its 150 on rest days.

Just gonna have a chicken and have no idea what to have with it:laugh: Probably

cheese and salad

I'm doing 20mins after workouts and 45 mins on rest days cardio mate

I've only had 120g carbs today, but fats & protein on track, bound to take a

day or two to get diet spot on, can have another slice of wholemeal toast and

maybe a banana pre workout.

I like the protein pancake idea, will do some research:thumb:


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## hilly (Jan 19, 2008)

mine will be something like

breaky - eggs/oats/protein powder and whole meal/sprouted grain bread

2 pro fat meals probs lean mince beef with some choped tomotaoes

pre workout about an hour before - chicken/potato or brown rice and veg

intra workout shake - malto/aminos/glut/creatine

pwo - isolate

ppwo - lean meat source and either rice/sweet pot/oats etc and veg

another pro/fat meal but leaner meat maybe turkey burgers etc in a stir fry

pre bed some form of shake and almond butter or similar.


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## sizar (Nov 13, 2008)

hilly said:


> mine will be something like
> 
> breaky - eggs/oats/protein powder and whole meal/sprouted grain bread
> 
> ...


Similar to my current diet .. take away intra workout stuff. .. i never have carb in my evening meal just veg and meat


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## hilly (Jan 19, 2008)

that will be the base then when weight stops increasing will adjust with fats and protein first then carbs


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## rs007 (May 28, 2007)

Prodiver said:


> If you eat any carbs immediately/soon after getting up, your bod will become accustomed to getting fed and will not tap into your fat stores.
> 
> If you expend a significant amount of energy before eating, such as by travelling to work, doing cardio or working out, your bod will get used to using your fat reserves for energy first and efficiently.
> 
> After, you can make full use of a good complex breakfast.


Patrick I know why you are saying this - and you aren't exactly wrong on the theory. But generally I have always had a carby breakfast immediately upon waking, and losing fat has never been a problem for me - and many many others. Another one of those theory and real life not quite matching up situations.

Also, you are often saying - you said it again in here - something along the lines of it isn't your fat intake that makes you fat, its your carb intake.

Again, you aren't wrong, but you are only telling a fraction of the story.

Yes, in the Western world, the reason most people are obese is because of excessive carb intake coupled with low energy expenditure.

IE excess energy - calories - and the body stores em.

Fat can easily provide excess calories and those will also be stored. So yeah, fat doesn't necessarily make you fat, but with it being the most calorie dense nutrient of the 3 main ones, its so much easier to take in excess calories.

Now don't get me wrong, I don't aim for a certain calorie intake per day, I agree with you on that - but regardless of what you plan and aim for, an excess is an excess, and that can come from anywhere...

I suspect you probably agree with most of that, its just that the simple statement about carbs defining how fat you get, not your fat intake, while not wrong, doesn't tell anywhere near the whole story. I mean you ahve guys chugging back olive oil in all their shakes, on top of their incidental fat intake - I don't care if the research says olive oil can increase fat consumption - too much of it is still going to make you fat if it pushes you over your energy requirements - I don't htink people quite get that.


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## Prodiver (Nov 14, 2008)

Dtlv74 said:


> Why are calories irrelevant?


"the *number* of calories is irrelevant".

You cannot calculate with any accuracy the number of calories you need each day: your daily activities and even the weather will vary and so affect your energy expenditure.

There's no point in settling on some notional, incorrect number of calories and counting out all the calorific values of your food.


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## rs007 (May 28, 2007)

Prodiver said:


> "the *number* of calories is irrelevant".
> 
> You cannot calculate with any accuracy the number of calories you need each day: your daily activities and even the weather will vary and so affect your energy expenditure.
> 
> There's no point in settling on some notional, incorrect number of calories and counting out all the calorific values of your food.


Exactly - set a protein and fat intake based on sensible estimates and whatever guidelines you want to work by - as these requirements are likely to be relatively consistent regardless of expenditure - and adjust your carbs from there until you are just gaining weight (if trying to grow) or just losing (if cutting).

Some days you will get it right, some you will be a bit out - impossible to be totally accurate day in day out - but on average you will go toward your intended goal.

Just picking a calorie figure out the sky, and wiring in macros to fit it, is a sure recipe for disaster IMO


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## TH0R (Aug 15, 2007)

Prodiver said:


> "the *number* of calories is irrelevant".
> 
> You cannot calculate with any accuracy the number of calories you need each day: your daily activities and even the weather will vary and so affect your energy expenditure.
> 
> There's no point in settling on some notional, incorrect number of calories and counting out all the calorific values of your food.


But surely using a range can make the job easier, I wouldn't be able to tell what

I'd eaten if I was losing fat, or vice versa. I'd be just guessing all the time.

Some people do very similar things every day, I'm a bricky/builder and do almost

the same things every day apart from weekends

It doesn't take much to workout that if its hot you'll use up more calories, and

you can build this into your range

Randomly guessing at what your having to eat would not work for me, and I've

tried it, was disasterous

so whilst there is no point for you, its everything to me


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## rs007 (May 28, 2007)

tel3563 said:


> But surely using a range can make the job easier, I wouldn't be able to tell what
> 
> I'd eaten if I was losing fat, or vice versa. I'd be just guessing all the time.
> 
> ...


I do track my eating, so I do see what you are saying - I record it so there isn't anything random. Although my calorie total is displayed, I rarely pay any attention to it.

I dial in my protein intake based on my theories for requirements (I know Pat and me vary in our thinking on THAT one :lol: ) keep fats reasonably minimal (as entering nitty gritty stages of dieting, generally 60g per day or less, I feel thats plenty) and then track my carb intake. If I am not losing wieght, I'll chop some off and so on.

So I suppose ESSENTIALLY it amounts to the same thing on the surface, but it isn't really because if you just count a calorie figure, you just have one big figure, it means nowt - its the breakdown that is important.

For example say you were taking 3500 calories daily. You take it in a good amount of protien, adequate fats, and carbs for energy. That will prob workout all right.

But you could also take in your 3500 calories from butter :lol: Not so good.

OK extreme example, but see what I mean?

I just set the imprtant stuff, and the calorie figure lands wherever it lands - I don't set calories first, then work back - which is what a lot of people seem to do - ok if you fluke it just right I suppose....


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## Prodiver (Nov 14, 2008)

Forget calorie numbers - even as a starting point or guide.

Eat everything and anything. Just make sure you get enough protein. Don't worry about eating fats.

Then just look in the mirror and adjust your carbs as necessary.


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## rs007 (May 28, 2007)

Prodiver said:


> Forget calorie numbers - even as a starting point or guide.
> 
> Eat everything and anything. Just make sure you get enough protein. Don't worry about eating fats.
> 
> Then just look in the mirror and adjust your carbs as necessary.


Got to say, when it comes down to brass tacks, I agree with this... I mean you will get a good amount of incidental fat if you eat meat, eggs, fish, milk, so you don't need to particularly even worry about it. Add a little fats somewhere if you feel you must, but don't go mad.

Then gauge it on a weekly basis in the mirror and scale (just as cross reference, since scale doesnt tell you WHAT you are gaining)


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## TH0R (Aug 15, 2007)

rs007 said:


> I do track my eating, so I do see what you are saying - I record it so there isn't anything random. Although my calorie total is displayed, I rarely pay any attention to it.
> 
> I dial in my protein intake based on my theories for requirements (I know Pat and me vary in our thinking on THAT one :lol: ) keep fats reasonably minimal (as entering nitty gritty stages of dieting, generally 60g per day or less, I feel thats plenty) and then track my carb intake. If I am not losing wieght, I'll chop some off and so on.
> 
> ...


I do the same, the actual calories mean nothing to me, its all about the macro's

the figure is just what it ends up to be at the end of the day, but I do try and

make sure I stick to more or less the same count, or I wouldn't know what works

or how (not that I do now:lol

Prov's posts are always so black or white, he forgets about the grey areas (I don't mean his hair)


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## Prodiver (Nov 14, 2008)

tel3563 said:


> ...
> 
> Prov's posts are always so black or white, he forgets about the grey areas (I don't mean his hair)


I don't actually forget the grey areas, tel. But I've learnt to précis stuff on here.

What happens if, as recently, the weather turns hot for a few days, and you eat the same number of calories as in the winter? You get porkier.

If you stop eating the same amounts of the same food every day and listen to your body you can avoid this.

If you feel hungry and lack energy (and you're eating enough fat), eat some more carbs. If you get porkier, reduce them.

Here's the quote again: "Carbohydrates are not essential to the human diet, as they are relatively low in vitamins and minerals, and energy can be provided from excess fats and proteins in the diet."


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

rs007 said:


> Patrick I know why you are saying this - and you aren't exactly wrong on the theory. But generally I have always had a carby breakfast immediately upon waking, and losing fat has never been a problem for me - and many many others. Another one of those theory and real life not quite matching up situations.
> 
> Also, you are often saying - you said it again in here - something along the lines of it isn't your fat intake that makes you fat, its your carb intake.
> 
> ...


Really good post. The way I see it is that overuse of carbohydrate in diet makes over consumption of calories easier, but it's not the carbs themselves that make you fat - it's the excess calories.

If it was just the carbs then a calorie defecit on high carb would still make you fat - but it doesn't. Likewise it's not true that eating fats with only low carbs can't make you fat - quanitity of weight gain is the same in hypercaloric low carb/high fat diets as it is in calorie matched hypercaloric high carb diets.

There are differences between the way metabolism functions between high and low carb diet, and low carb helps better with certain metabolic aspects in certain risk factor groups, but the often touted metabolic advantage is nice and very ellegant in theory but is not actually borne out when investigated in studies with tight controls.

...

Nowt wrong with carbs for breakfast when looking to lose weight, and if you find you normally have cravings for carbs when carb restricted then a high carb breakfast with lower carbs later may actually work best for you - http://huehueteotl.wordpress.com/2008/06/24/low-carb-yes-but-eat-a-high-carb-and-protein-big-breakfast/


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

Prodiver said:


> "the *number* of calories is irrelevant".
> 
> You cannot calculate with any accuracy the number of calories you need each day: your daily activities and even the weather will vary and so affect your energy expenditure.
> 
> There's no point in settling on some notional, incorrect number of calories and counting out all the calorific values of your food.


One thing you can do though is find a dietary plan through trial and error that gives you exactly the effects you need on body composition at a certain activity level, and then calculate the calories and macros from it and then use that as a future template.

It is unwise I agree to claim that the figure you come up with personally would work for all others, as the likelyhood of their personal energy and nutrient requirements being exactly the same is very slim... but there's not much wrong with offering that figure to them as a basic amount to begin their own trial and error process from... it should at least put them in the same ball park and may well make things easier.


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## TH0R (Aug 15, 2007)

Prodiver said:


> I don't actually forget the grey areas, tel. But I've learnt to précis stuff on here.
> 
> What happens if, *as recently, the weather turns hot for a few days,* and you eat the same number of calories as in the winter? You get porkier.
> 
> ...


Where do you live Prov, no hot weather here:confused1:

This is why I go for a range, as I said previously its not rocket science to know

that when its hot you use more calories and adjust to suit.

I simply couldn't go along eating without knowing what I'm eating, maybe its a memory

thing as I wouldn't know what I'd had from one day to the next tbh

I've tried it, didn't work for me mate


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## sizar (Nov 13, 2008)

tel3563 said:


> Where do you live Prov, no hot weather here:confused1:
> 
> This is why I go for a range, as I said previously its not rocket science to know
> 
> ...


let me guess norfolk ?

Tell

don't you eat same everyday or you change it from day to day


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## Bettyboo (Jun 8, 2009)

big said:


> The fact that you are consuming enough fats and carbs to fuel you, so your body doesn't need to convert protein to fuel
> 
> Conversion of protein to glucose is expensive for the body to do, so it won't do it unless it needs to
> 
> ...


Its also the longest cycle to use to get energy too  sorry just thought I would add that bit lol


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## TH0R (Aug 15, 2007)

sizar said:


> let me guess norfolk ?
> 
> Tell
> 
> don't you eat same everyday or you change it from day to day


Yes, I have a few base meals I use every day, but I do have differences as well

I just note what I eat on my pda and then put it into fitday.com, in one way

what Prov says is true, as I pretty know what macro's my food contains before

I eat it

I have never done what I'm doing now which is why I asked the original question.

One other question, I've just had steak, fried it in grape oil, I had it with 3x fried

eggs, good or bad idea, should I be grilling my steak (as I'm now having it every day)

and scramble the eggs??


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## hilly (Jan 19, 2008)

i wouldnt be frying it in oil personally. maybe use some of that fry light 1 cal stuff thats what i use or grill it . use the 1 cal stuff for eggs


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## Prodiver (Nov 14, 2008)

I live in N E Essex - driest part of the UK - and often very hot in summer. Last few days have been quite hot and sunny!

"its not rocket science to know that when its hot you use more calories and adjust to suit." Actually tel, you need fewer calories when the weather is hotter!


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## TH0R (Aug 15, 2007)

Prodiver said:


> I live in N E Essex - driest part of the UK - and often very hot in summer. Last few days have been quite hot and sunny!
> 
> "its not rocket science to know that when its hot *you use more calories* and *adjust to suit*." Actually tel, you need fewer calories when the weather is hotter!


Now you have confused me, in summers in the past I have always lost weight naturally without doing anything else, I don't eat less so I assume its from the heat, how can this not be true??

Here's my macro's for today Prov, any thoughts

Cals 4107 Fats 241 Carbs 125 Protein 352


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## Prodiver (Nov 14, 2008)

tel3563 said:


> Oops, just a typo mate:thumbup1:
> 
> Here's my macro's for today Prov, any thoughts
> 
> Cals 4107 Fats 241 Carbs 125 Protein 352


:laugh:

Only one I can comment on is your protein intake. How much do you weigh?


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## TH0R (Aug 15, 2007)

sorry prov, when I actually read it i had to edit, as I don't understand:rolleye:

My weight now is 16 stone, I hope to put on muscle but lose bodyfat, end of 8 wks want to

be around 15 or 15.5

Doing 45 mins cardio on rest days, mostly eod, and 20 mins on training days after weights


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## Prodiver (Nov 14, 2008)

tel3563 said:


> sorry prov, when I actually read it i had to edit, as I don't understand:rolleye:
> 
> My weight now is 16 stone, I hope to put on muscle but lose bodyfat, end of 8 wks want to
> 
> ...


Experiments were done to determine how much protein is required for muscle maintenance and growth in individuals with different activity levels.

The results were equated to lean body mass. But this isn't easy to determine for the average bodybuilder.

It turns out that if you consume a certain number of grams protein per kilo actual bodyweight per day you can be certain of getting enough.

Some advocate more, some less. I believe you should eat a minimum of 2 gms/kilo/day. So at 16 stone/224 lbs/102 kg you need at least 200 gms protein a day.

Even a substantially higher protein intake doesn't show quickly on the pee sticks, though you're probably turning a good deal of it into expensive energy, which means you need less carbs.


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## TH0R (Aug 15, 2007)

I've been on 360g for months, 200g imo doesn't touch the sides as I've tried it and lost

muscle aplenty within 10 days

we'll agree to disagree as I've been on this merrygo round before


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## Prodiver (Nov 14, 2008)

tel3563 said:


> I've been on 360g for months, 200g imo doesn't touch the sides as I've tried it and lost
> 
> muscle aplenty within 10 days
> 
> we'll agree to disagree as I've been on this merrygo round before


How much gear are you on? :laugh:


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## TH0R (Aug 15, 2007)

Not been on any apart from a little cruise dose last 10 weeks, I have started an 8wk blast

today though

Why do you find it so hard to take in that perhaps protein needs are different amongst

us all, are some people not more sensitive to carbs, why is it so hard to believe the same

of Protein???

we are all genetically different, as are our dietary needs IMO

Like I've said previous, things are not black and white, many different ways to skin a cat.

we just need to accept that we can't all know everything about everything & everyone

and see the others point of view


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## hilly (Jan 19, 2008)

bare in mind what pro is saying is protein requirements. we may need 200g as a requirement for example to fue growth. then add say 200g carbs in and fat come along with the meat. now this may fuel our day but certainly may not be enough cals in total for growth so IMO i would rather get the cals from protein than carbs.


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## Prodiver (Nov 14, 2008)

hilly said:


> bare in mind what pro is saying is protein requirements. we may need 200g as a requirement for example to fue growth. then add say 200g carbs in and fat come along with the meat. now this may fuel our day but certainly may not be enough cals in total for growth so IMO i would rather get the cals from protein than carbs.


You certainly need sufficient energy to perform your daily life and to work out intensely.

I do favour higher protein rather than higher carbs, mainly because I love meat and can find little evidence of damage until protein intake is very high.

Probably this is because I'm an atavistic farmer's son and like the hunter-gatherer idea. 

It just that using protein, especially in the form of shakes, for energy is rather expensive for most guys.

As far as I can ascertain from reading widely, expements showed that protein synthesis is remarkably consistent from guy to guy, and we don't differ very much in our needs.

This isn't surprising as we evolved to survive in the same world with the same incidence of foods and nutrients.

It's more likely that different protein utilization is more to do with the quality of the protein - a lot of shake powders are not full spectrum and not very high in protein as a percentage - and that guys are not getting enough of their protein from real food, especially red meat, and maybe other dietary quirks.


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## hilly (Jan 19, 2008)

totally agree pro. during last off season i made my best gains eating more or less a full solid diet. i only added shakes in once i stoped gaining at around 3800ish cals and could fit any miore clean food in so the choices were eat more junkish food or add a shake here or there.


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## Lois_Lane (Jul 21, 2009)

Eat like Prodiver if you want an easy life and look decent, eat like a regimented soldier if you want to look superhuman.

Personally i think people way over do protein but could benefit adding branch chain amino acids between meals. The American bb's have been doing this for a while and my physique has never looked as good since drinking about 60 grams of bcaa each day. Expensive yes but very worth it for my goals!


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## Lois_Lane (Jul 21, 2009)

Lol show me any sort of environmental change bar sitting at the north pole naked that will change calorie use that much LMAO. Even things like clen that make you hotter all day only increase caloric expenditure slightly.


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## HJL (Apr 26, 2009)

good debate guys

If we have 0 carbs, will we not have 0 muscle glycogen, and then when we workout or go on a run, where does the energy come from?


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## Prodiver (Nov 14, 2008)

God said:


> ProDiver - I notice you mention the "ambient temperature" thing an awful lot. How much difference can a change of a few degrees really make?
> 
> Yes if you consume the same every day you may have a few too many carbs or not enough however surely it will balance itself out over time? Most people do pretty similar things each day (at least during the week) so just going on hunger seems an odd approach and this could vary a lot more than any temperature or activity level change for most.
> 
> ...


Yes - hunger is definitely not the same as food needs. When I am doing heavy academic research I rarely feel hungry for hours - until I stop, when I usually feel ravenous! AFAIR it's been established that brain-work uses relatively more energy than physical.

But you do need to eat significantly more calories as the ambient temperature drops, witness arctic explorers' diets. Of course we don't notice this so much today as we have central heating and travel so much in heated vehicles and walk comparatively so little.

Only a small calorie surplus over needs every day will soon add up to pork! Conversely, a cumulative calorie defecit will make you leaner, but reduce your energy reserves if you don't eat enough fat, and limit the intensity of your workouts.


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## Ak_88 (Nov 9, 2008)

Lois_Lane said:


> Eat like Prodiver if you want an easy life and look decent, eat like a regimented soldier if you want to look superhuman.
> 
> Personally i think people way over do protein but could benefit adding branch chain amino acids between meals. The American bb's have been doing this for a while and my physique has never looked as good since drinking about 60 grams of bcaa each day. Expensive yes but very worth it for my goals!


My knowledge of BCAA's has never been that great so my apologies if i'm being an idiot - but how would an intake of BCAA's differ to say the equivalent protein content in actual food?

Obviously the amino profile is unlikely to be similar but could you make up the values with real food rather than what seems an expensive option for most?


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## rs007 (May 28, 2007)

Ak_88 said:


> My knowledge of BCAA's has never been that great so my apologies if i'm being an idiot - but how would an intake of BCAA's differ to say the equivalent protein content in actual food?
> 
> Obviously the amino profile is unlikely to be similar but could you make up the values with real food rather than what seems an expensive option for most?


I think it is related to the fact that they get into the blood super quick - directly, ZERO digestion required, and the aminos concerned cause an actual spike in anabolism.

I use loads of whey, it has a very high percentage of BCAAs in (20% off top of my head, willing to be corrected) BUT it is tied up in the various whey protein chains and takes time to get into the blood, even then it will drip feed in AND they might come in individually, not hit with the 3 of them in 1 whack?


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## wes (May 28, 2006)

The the OP. I would go ahead and do the new plan and not worry about the protein being used for energy but be aware of the possibility and change if it doesn't suit you. If it is the case I would then up the carbs to say 200 and drop the protein slightly. I wouldn't like to go above the 150g of fat but then thats just me and you won't know anything until you try.

To the rest, great debate lads, very interesting. Speaking from experience I started off calculating my calories, protein, carbs and fats and have used this approach for years. Even though, I have always thought it too convenient too be able to determine your exact dietary needs from equations and stats, it does however give you a starting point and a ball park figure.

Now for the last 4 months I have not used strict logs of my diet. Instead I have gone by the philosophy of eating everything that isn't nailed down, everything that is nailed down and the nails with it. All real food concentrating on high protein, limited carbs and good fats. I have Judged my progress by the scales and the mirror each week and to be honest it is a refreshing break from constantly analysing and logging everything and it is working but then so did the other approach.

I would recommend claculating everthing down to a microgram and even say it is essential for beginners. I would also say that after awhile when you get to know your body you don't need to do this but it is good practice, for experienced trainers who may know their body inside out to use as a benchmark for comparison purposes when weight goals are reached. I also believe it essential for comp bodybuilders. Remember bodybuilding is a science and a part of all science is recording, analysing, experimentation and being able to learn and progress from the results.

So both theories are supported and can be effective approaches but what it really comes down is your goal and Con summed it up in a nutshell and he's bang on when he said "Eat like Prodiver if you want an easy life and look decent, eat like a regimented soldier if you want to look superhuman"


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## TH0R (Aug 15, 2007)

Just a few more questions 

Scaled this morning at 15/9, thats 3lb down on yesterday????

Not sure if this is good or bad, I know it must be water weight but what determines how

much water we have?

Is it just carbs that make us hold water, always been a bit confused with this water thing!!

Also not sure how healthy on the heart this is, being at the more maturer level:rolleye:

Any relevant info would be welcomed.

I have another question as well 

Eating 200g carbs at breakfest and round workouts is easy, but on rest/cardio days having 150 carbs

just for breakfest seems overkill, just a bit puzzled here?? carry over to meal 2?? or have

some post cardio??

:beer:


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## sizar (Nov 13, 2008)

tel3563 said:


> Just a few more questions
> 
> Scaled this morning at 15/9, thats 3lb down on yesterday????
> 
> ...


3LB is nothing tell esp for someone your size .. i'm much smaller and my weight goes up and down by 5 LB at times. water weight .. every gram of carb holds 3 grams of water and plus all the food you eat. fluid level .. also if your on any meds that makes you carry more water ..

on your day off having all your carb in breakfast is too much .. i wouldn't worry about that. just split it into 2 or 3 meals for example your 1st 3 meals of the day. then just have protein and good fats in the other 3


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## maccer (Jul 11, 2007)

I agree with a lot of what prodiver says. I been low carb all year and am in my best shape (not that that is too impressive) obviously everyone is different but gear seems to make a big difference - I think you can handle more carbs without getting fat on gear. I do not count calories I stuck to high EFA's and high protein with no sugars and starches and looked a lot better for it - but I am no competitive bodybuilder - I just want to look good naked lol


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## Joshua (Aug 21, 2008)

Ak_88 said:


> My knowledge of BCAA's has never been that great so my apologies if i'm being an idiot - but how would an intake of BCAA's differ to say the equivalent protein content in actual food?
> 
> Obviously the amino profile is unlikely to be similar but could you make up the values with real food rather than what seems an expensive option for most?


The liver is a protein store with quite high turnover for most of the aminos, except for the BCAAs which tend to go to skeletal muscle for storage [ IIRC c70% of BCAAs go extrahepatic ].

There is also an issue of transporter and competitive amino acid uptake.

I agree with Con on the use of BCAAs when everything else is ok ( sufficient dietary energy intake and protein intake ). There can be some problems with over reliance on BCAAs in the diet (at the expense of other AA) - The first is [iIRC] there is a competitive uptake issue with some psychoactive aminos, and secondly, the refractory period of skeletal muscle protein synthesis post insulin + Leu stimulus is longer when tis only BCAAs ingested compared to Essential Aminos (EAA).

J


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## TH0R (Aug 15, 2007)

sizar said:


> 3LB is nothing tell esp for someone your size .. i'm much smaller and my weight goes up and down by 5 LB at times. water weight .. every gram of carb holds 3 grams of water and plus all the food you eat. fluid level .. also if your on any meds that makes you carry more water ..
> 
> on your day off having all your carb in breakfast is too much .. i wouldn't worry about that. just split it into 2 or 3 meals for example your 1st 3 meals of the day. then just have protein and good fats in the other 3


Just a bit of a surprise to lose 3lb in one day:rolleyes: (actually nearly 4lbs)

Like I said previously, training days i'll do 200g carbs easy first thing and round

workouts, but today I have done some ab work and 45 mins of cardio, decided

to have quark, honey, berries and nuts afterwards, kinda fancied it as well, this

will be my last significant carbs of the day (honey and berries) in any meal.

So I'm kinda thinking last carbs before 2pm on non training days, sound ok??

I know somebody is now gonna say never have fruit and honey after cardio


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## Lois_Lane (Jul 21, 2009)

Joshua said:


> The liver is a protein store with quite high turnover for most of the aminos, except for the BCAAs which tend to go to skeletal muscle for storage [ IIRC c70% of BCAAs go extrahepatic ].
> 
> There is also an issue of transporter and competitive amino acid uptake.
> 
> ...


Best post on this thread respect mate great knowledge:beer:

3lb is nothing remember there is a lot of waste in the body (****) and just by losing more of that than normal such as you do on a colonic irrigation would lead to such a drop. True body weight does not change daily only water and waste levels.


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

Joshua said:


> The liver is a protein store with quite high turnover for most of the aminos, except for the BCAAs which tend to go to skeletal muscle for storage [ IIRC c70% of BCAAs go extrahepatic ].
> 
> There is also an issue of transporter and competitive amino acid uptake.
> 
> ...


Didn't know the highlighted bit - interesting. I'm guessing the period of elevated protein synthesis is then also stronger in total magnitude (AUC) than EAA too (when comparing the same amount of each)?

There's a theory on the competition between BCAAs and tryptophan that it's a beneficial thing during the workout - that when exercising to a great degree of effort the body synthesises more serotonin to encourage a relaxed state and a back off from pushing too far. This Central Fatigue causes performance reduction (or maximum effort reduction) but is theorized to be cancelled out by high plasma BCAAs at the time of exercise, which block the tryptophan from being converted to 5-HTP and then serotonin. Am not sure about the theory to be honest but it's interesting.

Would definitely third the use of extra BCAAs between meals though, makes a noticable difference. As an alternative EAAs work pretty well too (by percentage EAA blends are mostly BCAA anyway), but interesting that they may not elevate protein synthesis for so long as BCAAs.


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## C19H28O2 (Oct 11, 2008)

Prodiver said:


> I don't actually forget the grey areas, tel. But I've learnt to précis stuff on here.
> 
> What happens if, as recently, the weather turns hot for a few days, and you eat the same number of calories as in the winter? You get porkier.
> 
> ...


That couldn't be further from the truth. Almost all vegetables and fruits are carbohydrates. You would have a hard time reaching your RDA's of vit A & C without without consuming carbs. Also many carbohydrate foods are high in other beneficial compounds eg polyphenols, fibre and antioxidants

Unless you mean staple carbs, eg rice, pasta & potatoes then yh


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## Lois_Lane (Jul 21, 2009)

C19H28O2 said:


> That couldn't be further from the truth. Almost all vegetables and fruits are carbohydrates. You would have a hard time reaching your RDA's of vit A & C without without consuming carbs. Also many carbohydrate foods are high in other beneficial compounds eg polyphenols, fibre and antioxidants
> 
> Unless you mean staple carbs, eg rice, pasta & potatoes then yh


As far as vitamins you are best off using a good multi vitamin as you would have to eat fruit all day long to hit enough vit c for an athlete.

I certainly agree with your other points.

No carbs are not needed to survive but ketosis is not healthy in the long run so best include some in there:thumbup1:

I am certainly not a big believer in grain foods. Our ancestors did not eat a lot if any grains so why should we? Just because this is how the food industry makes its money?


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## C19H28O2 (Oct 11, 2008)

Also high meat diets (red and processed meats) are linked to cancer (bowel, prostate), whereas high carbohydrate (complex carbs & fibre) diets reduce the risk.

From a nutritional standpoint keto diets are discouraged.. the base of our food pyramid, or now the food plate is carbohydrates- they have obviously based this on years of research


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## Lois_Lane (Jul 21, 2009)

C19H28O2 said:


> Also high meat diets (red and processed meats) are linked to cancer (bowel, prostate), whereas high carbohydrate (complex carbs & fibre) diets reduce the risk.
> 
> From a nutritional standpoint keto diets are discouraged.. the base of our food pyramid, or now the food plate is carbohydrates- they have obviously based this on years of research


Yes they have the research has shown that corn/grains are the most profitable and we could not survive as a society/economy with out focusing on them.

Look at any processed food item chances are it contains corn.

Its like Soylent Green the film, scary **** IMO.

There is a big difference between and keto diet and a diet where the only carbs you get come from green veg and fruit.

Look into the paleolithic diet its great reading at least i think so.


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## C19H28O2 (Oct 11, 2008)

Lois_Lane said:


> As far as vitamins you are best off using a good multi vitamin as you would have to eat fruit all day long to hit enough vit c for an athlete.
> 
> I certainly agree with your other points.
> 
> ...


in theory you should be able to get everything you need from your diet.. however, as you said athletes require more than the average person so supplements are required. But the problem is a lot of people think they can eat very specific diets (excluding many essential food stuffs) and just use supplements to compensate. the problem is you miss out on a myriad of other beneficial food compounds such as the ones i mentioned.

Re ancestors - this is currently a 'hot topic' in nutrition; there are many benefits from eating nuts, seeds, berries ect and processed and man made products are certainly not of any benefit.. however how we have evolved (in terms of dietary intake) is not fully understood. For example have we evolved because of a change in diet = towards grains and meat, or is a reduction in 'cave man' foods detrimental

on the other hand our body may adapt to whatever diet is presented.. eg the now dysfunctional appendix


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## C19H28O2 (Oct 11, 2008)

Lois_Lane said:


> Yes they have the research has shown that *corn/grains are the most profitable and we could not survive as a society/economy with out focusing on them.*
> 
> Look at any processed food item chances are it contains corn.
> 
> ...


Agreed, especially developing countries.

A balanced diet has been proven to the most beneficial- terms of risk factors (cancer, hypertension, obesity ect) but unfortunately this doesn't work for bodybuilders. I think keto diets are excellent for losing weight but i think used constantly you may run in to problems in later life. Look at Dr Akins lol (I think he was eating lard though)

I will look in to that film and diet m8 thanks


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## Lois_Lane (Jul 21, 2009)

C19H28O2 said:


> Agreed, especially developing countries.
> 
> A balanced diet has been proven to the most beneficial- terms of risk factors (cancer, hypertension, obesity ect) but unfortunately this doesn't work for bodybuilders. I think keto diets are excellent for losing weight but i think used constantly you may run in to problems in later life. Look at Dr Akins lol (I think he was eating lard though)
> 
> I will look in to that film and diet m8 thanks


Oh the film is nothing to do with diet as such mate its an old sci-fi where they all eat this mysterious thing called soylent green as other food resources have fun out. Turns out its humans they are eating:lol:

FOOD inc is a great film.

Agreed most "bb" diets are far from balanced FAR FROM IT!

The problem with modern foods like corn syrup is they affect the whole body in a negative way as far as fat loss goes its not just a problem of calorie in vs calorie out.

Personally what i consider a perfect meal consists of lean protein, green veg, 1 colorful fruit and a portion of either nuts/avocado or a TBS of good oil.

Keto diets work great if you can sleep on them, i can not and i have attempted to do keto diets many times. 8 weeks is the longest i have managed.

P.S. i haven't seen many of your posts mate but i am highly impressed!!!!


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## C19H28O2 (Oct 11, 2008)

Lois_Lane said:


> Oh the film is nothing to do with diet as such mate its an old sci-fi where they all eat this mysterious thing called soylent green as other food resources have fun out. *Turns out its humans they are eating* :lol:
> 
> FOOD inc is a great film.
> 
> ...


lol i thought you were referring to an educational video.

I agree i try to include vege, EFA's and protein in every meal

Thanks! I have a degree in food and nutrition m8. Unfortunately we never focused on bodybuilding.. sometimes sports- but mainly endurance based. So i know about food in general but not specific to BB


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## Lois_Lane (Jul 21, 2009)

C19H28O2 said:


> lol i thought you were referring to an educational video.
> 
> I agree i try to include vege, EFA's and protein in every meal
> 
> Thanks! I have a degree in food and nutrition m8. Unfortunately we never focused on bodybuilding.. sometimes sports- but mainly endurance based. So i know about food in general but not specific to BB


That is not easy to do respect. :thumbup1:

I did 2 years of it then had to switch to psychology because i couldn't hack the chemistry:cursing:

What do you think is the ideal amount of protein for a bodybuilder?

This is a hot topic on here and i am often shot down for my views that 300grams is more than ample for some one with lets say 200lb lean body mass.


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## Prodiver (Nov 14, 2008)

C19H28O2 said:


> That couldn't be further from the truth. Almost all vegetables and fruits are carbohydrates. You would have a hard time reaching your RDA's of vit A & C without without consuming carbs. Also many carbohydrate foods are high in other beneficial compounds eg polyphenols, fibre and antioxidants
> 
> *Unless you mean staple carbs, eg rice, pasta & potatoes then yh*


That's clearly what the quote means.

IMO many bodybuilders eat too little fruit and veg and too much rice and pasta.


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## Lois_Lane (Jul 21, 2009)

Prodiver said:


> That's clearly what the quote means.
> 
> IMO many bodybuilders eat too little fruit and veg and too much rice and pasta.


Gotta BULK though don't you mate or else you wouldn't get to enjoy 4-5 months of dieting each year:whistling:


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## C19H28O2 (Oct 11, 2008)

Yh i didn't enjoy the chemistry side of it either.. i wanted to do human nutrition to become a dietitian but i couldn't because of the chemistry

Ive got a sports and nutrition book in front of me which states ' protein intake of 2g/Kg body weight/day is adequate for people who participate in regular strength training'

eg 200lb = 90kg, so 180gs. Thats way less than what is recommended by BB forums. To be safe i think a 200lb BB should take approx 250, 300 (maybe more) if using gear.. but to be honest i don't know lol. Given the recommendations you would think 300g is definitely enough, if not too much


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## Lois_Lane (Jul 21, 2009)

C19H28O2 said:


> Yh i didn't enjoy the chemistry side of it either.. i wanted to do human nutrition to become a dietitian but i couldn't because of the chemistry
> 
> Ive got a sports and nutrition book in front of me which states ' protein intake of 2g/Kg body weight/day is adequate for people who participate in regular strength training'
> 
> eg 200lb = 90kg, so 180gs. Thats way less than what is recommended by BB forums. To be safe i think a 200lb BB should take approx 250, 300 (maybe more) if using gear.. but to be honest i don't know lol. Given the recommendations you would think 300g is definitely enough, if not too much


 :thumbup1:

When off gear i take in 240 grams all based off 200lb lean body mass at 5ft8, works for me. But you will find many seem to think you need a lot more than this:whistling:


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## C19H28O2 (Oct 11, 2008)

Prodiver said:


> That's clearly what the quote means.
> 
> IMO many bodybuilders eat too little fruit and veg and too much rice and pasta.


Agreed.

I read an old thread where you advocate lean bulking rather the classic 'bulk then cut'.. i agree with that and think its a healthier approach.. and could be achieved with a (somewhat) balanced diet. I would imagine it takes longer though


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## C19H28O2 (Oct 11, 2008)

Lois_Lane said:


> :thumbup1:
> 
> When off gear i take in 240 grams all based off 200lb lean body mass at 5ft8, works for me. But you will find many seem to think you need a lot more than this:whistling:


Yh I around the same height, but lighter than you and shoot for around the same.

As others have said the body tends to excrete excess protein rather than convert it to other compounds, so taking more is necessarily bad (except for wasting £), it just has no benefits.


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## Prodiver (Nov 14, 2008)

C19H28O2 said:


> Agreed.
> 
> I read an old thread where you advocate lean bulking rather the classic 'bulk then cut'.. i agree with that and think its a healthier approach.. and could be achieved with a (somewhat) balanced diet. I would imagine it takes longer though


I don't think it takes longer, actually. Guys spend weeks bulking and even longer cutting, as far as I can tell! :laugh:

But let's ask Con..!


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## Lois_Lane (Jul 21, 2009)

Prodiver said:


> I don't think it takes longer, actually. Guys spend weeks bulking and even longer cutting, as far as I can tell! :laugh:
> 
> But let's ask Con..!


Not sure if we are taking the p1ss:lol: but here we go....

I have spent more of my training years dieting than bulking.

I gain about 10lb of lean mass per year but to no coincidence the majority of these gains come while i diet.

This Jan i was down to about 225lb in reasonable nick but no where near contest shape now i am 220lb and in a shape that i will be happy to get on stage with.

Obviously i will drop 5-10lb of water by contest day but looking back to last October when i was just under 260lb walking around feeling like death warmed up it didn't make sense did it?

Stay leaner and grow into a show is what i believe at least for MY body.

That said i will be the first to admit i will not and can not use a lot of gear when i am bulking as my bp goes up but i can use more when dieting.

From now on i stay lean when off then start a contest prep 5-6 months out and grow into the show.

Many approaches to every thing in this world and i will admit as a youngster my best move was taking 1 year of bulking hard. This meant 6 meals of whole food per day eating until very full. I went from 154lb to 200lb natural then dieted down to 185lb at the same bf as when i was 154lb. For some one out side of their teens i truly don't see the point in bulking.

Eat enough to gain muscle tissue, eat enough so you can recover from your work outs and grow stronger. But forget about the scales and thinking " i must hit X weight in order to be a success".

Plus lets not forget those who go heavy on every thing in the off season will lose size as they diet. If you use 1gram test to be bulked up to 250lb you will lose size on 1 gram test when you diet BUT if you get use less in the off season then even though you are dieting you will gain muscle and get bigger and better as you increase the dose towards the show.

Rather be the big guy on stage than the big guy on the street year round then have people go "wow you have lost size". I only ever get "wow you look bigger" as i diet

Oh yes one final point. When you bulk heavily a lot of the gains are water not muscle or fat. Water weight still taxes the body hard so in order to stay healthy i suggest not doing this.....


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## Joshua (Aug 21, 2008)

Lois_Lane said:


> Best post on this thread respect mate great knowledge:beer:
> 
> 3lb is nothing remember there is a lot of waste in the body (****) and just by losing more of that than normal such as you do on a colonic irrigation would lead to such a drop. True body weight does not change daily only water and waste levels.


Cheers Con.



Dtlv74 said:


> Didn't know the highlighted bit - interesting. I'm guessing the period of elevated protein synthesis is then also stronger in total magnitude (AUC) than EAA too (when comparing the same amount of each)?
> 
> There's a theory on the competition between BCAAs and tryptophan that it's a beneficial thing during the workout - that when exercising to a great degree of effort the body synthesises more serotonin to encourage a relaxed state and a back off from pushing too far. This Central Fatigue causes performance reduction (or maximum effort reduction) but is theorized to be cancelled out by high plasma BCAAs at the time of exercise, which block the tryptophan from being converted to 5-HTP and then serotonin. Am not sure about the theory to be honest but it's interesting.
> 
> Would definitely third the use of extra BCAAs between meals though, makes a noticable difference. As an alternative EAAs work pretty well too (by percentage EAA blends are mostly BCAA anyway), but interesting that they may not elevate protein synthesis for so long as BCAAs.


I am not aware of direct studies regarding the AUC variation due to EAA v BCAA ingestion. The study I was thinking of looked at the refractory period only IIRC, and if so, this would not necessarily result in lower net skeletal muscle protein synthesis (SMPS), however I suspect the shortening the refractory period would help [hunch]. I will dig out the study when I get chance. Caveats to this this also were that the experiment used physiological ranges of sex hormones and insulin, so extrapolation to chemically augmented athletes maybe unsafe. As an aside, I have wondered what effect lantus (slow release insulin) would have on refractory periods if any. In the dark recesses of my memory (seen a decade or so back) there was a study (animal model) that looked at the variation between persistent versus cyclic stimulation of SMPS and showed no variation between cycling and constant stimulation. Whether my memory deceives me is another matter, and I suspect that the model was far from being in typical conditions, even for the chemically augmented athlete.

Your comments on the impact on BCAA on workouts is an interesting one. In my earlier post, I was thinking only of simple problems that could stem from what would be effectively a chronic deficiency of particular aminos.

I have used high tyrosine intake pre workout on an empty stomach, and when in need of 5HTP intake (well characterised irritable symptoms in myself), and have found that the tyrosine intake increased irritability, presumably from furthering the dopamine serotonin imbalance. The preworkout dosing made me feel more annoyed and to some extent driven, in the gym, but the effects on performance were mixed at best. Some workouts were improved, some were unchanged, and on some occasions, the irritability seemed to hamper efforts.

Interesting stuff chaps,

J


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## nearlynatural (Aug 24, 2009)

Prodiver said:


> The nutrition cycle is hugely complex and even now not totally understood, but the digestion of carbs, fats and proteins is different.
> 
> Have a look on Wikipedia (it's not totally trustworthy but a pretty good approach): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nutrition, etc...
> 
> ...


Hi I an relate to the experience I have had as I do not have the knowledge of many of you but for me carbs is the worse thnig for fat gain.

My previous cycle made me fat, and I consumed less than 20 grams of fat a day. I was told big meals with complex carbs- brown rice, lentals etc , diet was very clean and calories were slightly over my maintenance.

I ended up putting 3 inches on my waist, I now follow a moderate carb with only green veg after six (they are very filling) and have high protein and average intake of fats- flax oil, cod liver oil, fat from eggs, basically all the goods sources of oil

Consequently I feel better, healthier, no longer bloated all fday and my digestive system seems to be be working better.

I have been training off and on for ten years and only realised how importsnt fats are- i had the low fat, high car, high protein protocal ingrained, however for me the formula results in to much fat gain.

NN

nn


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