# HCG and PCT recovery protocols.



## hackskii

Below are a few articles I came across so I thought I would copy and paste them. They seem to have the same flavor but contradict each other to some degree.

I have no idea who the authors are other than what the poster suggests.

*post cycle therpy *

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Here is one way;

Hypogonadotropic Hypogonadism:

Pulsatile secretion of gonadotropin releasing hormone (GnRH) from the hypothalamus is required for both the initiation and maintenance of the reproductive axis in the human. Pulsatile GnRH stimulates the biosynthesis of luteinizing hormone (LH) and follicle stimulating hormone (FSH) that in turn initiates endogenous testosterone production and spermatogenesis as well as systemic testosterone secretion and virilization. Failure of this episodic GnRH secretion or disruption of gonadotropin secretion results in the clinical syndrome of hypogonadotropic hypogonadism (HH).

The usage of anabolic androgenic steroids (AAS) may result in a functional form of HH known as Secondary Acquired Hypogonadotropic Hypogonadism and is diagnosed in the setting of a low testosterone level and sperm count in association with low or inappropriately normal serum LH and FSH concentrations.

In order to avoid any unnecessary confusion, it is important to understand what the actions of Gonadatropin therapy and Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulators are as well as how they differ from each other and more specifically, during post cycle recovery (PCT).

Gonadotropin Therapy:

There is nothing more effective than Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG). The action of HCG is identical to that of pituitary LH. This takes place independently and is not affected by exogenous hormones and/or preexisting HPTA suppression. Therefore, it directly stimulates a dramatic increase in endogenous testosterone production, spermatogenesis and testicular volume. The primary goal during the first few weeks of PCT is to quickly restore testicular volume and function. Also, the dramatic increase in testosterone production is necessary to avoid and/or minimize the unfavorable "crash" effect. In the majority of individuals with larger testes at baseline, HCG alone is sufficient in restoring endogenous testosterone production as well at the induction of spermatogenesis which is most likely a result of residual FSH secretion. Once there is a plateau in the response to HCG, treatment with an FSH preparation such as human menopausal gonadotropin (HMG) or recombinant follicle stimulating hormone (rFSH) should be added in combination to HCG.

*The addition of an FSH preparation is rarely required and is best suited for severe cases of HH. FSH preparations are not readily available to most individuals. Therefore, there is no need to go into details with respect to its application at this time.

HCG is administered by subcutaneous (SC) or intramuscular (IM) injection. The average (3ml 22-25G x ⅝-1½") syringe is adequate for IM injections but insulin syringes (½-1ml 28-30G x ½-1") are recommended for SC injections. In regards to effectiveness, there should be no discernable difference between either of the techniques. The individual should opt for the most comfortable and/or convenient form of administration.

The following is a description of the available preparations by Serono:

HCG ampoules are supplied in 500, 1,000, 2,000, 5,000 and 10,000 IU preparations accompanied by 1 ml of sterile dilluent. It should be stored at a controlled room temperature (15-30 degrees C or 59-86 degrees F) and should be used immediately after reconstitution.

HCG multidose vials are supplied in 2,000, 5,000 and 10,000 IU preparations accompanied by 10 ml of bacteriostatic water. It should be stored at a controlled room temperature (15-30 degrees C or 59-86 degrees F), refrigerated (2-8 degrees C or 36-46 degrees F) after reconstitution and used within 30 days.

Other manufacturers are available and preparations may vary.

The terms international units (IUs) can occasionally cause confusion when reconstituting and measuring HCG. The actual process is quite elementary and the concentration per ml (cc) is dependant on the concentration of the lyophilized powder and the volume of dilluent used for reconstitution. For example, if you dilute 5,000 IUs HCG with 5ml (cc) solvent, the end result is 1,000 IUs per ml (cc). Divide the same 5,000 IUs with 10 ml (cc) and the end result is 500 IUs per ml (cc).

*Bacteriostatic water should always be utilized during reconstitution when long term (30 day) storage and multi dose administration are required.

Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulators:

Selective estrogen receptor modulators (SERMs) such as Clomiphine (Clomid) and Tamoxifen (Nolvadex) increase pituitary LH secretion in secondary manner by blocking estrogen negative feedback on the HPTA. On average, this is not strong enough by itself to counteract the severe imbalance of the androgen:estrogen ratio that is encountered post cycle, especially in the presence of testicular atrophy. Therefore, SERMs are used during PCT primarily as an anti estrogen and to continue the stimulation of pituitary LH after HCG has been discontinued.

Nolvadex is widely available in 10 mg or 20 mg tablet preparations and Clomid is available in 50 mg tablet preparations.

Before Beginning PCT:

It is highly recommended to establish baseline blood values before beginning a cycle. The same principle applies to establishing post cycle blood values, which are necessary for evaluating recovery. Post cycle blood work should be obtained approximately 4 weeks after the cessation of PCT in order to determine accurate readings. Additional blood work should be performed when applicable and/or required.

The following are Fasting blood values:

Hormone

1. Cortisol, Total

2. Estradiol, Extraction

3. Prolactin

4. LH

5. FSH

6. T3, Free

7. T4, Free

8. TSH

9. Testosterone, Total, Free and Weakly Bound

10. Hemoglobin A1C

11. Fasting Insulin

12. Somatomedian C (optional)

Cardiovascular

13. CBC

14. Comprehensive Metabolic Panel

15. Lipid Panel

Other

16. GGT Important Liver Value not included in Comp Metabolic Panel

When to begin PCT:

On average, begin PCT approximately 5-10 days after your last injection regardless of longer acting esters. Begin PCT 1-3 days after your last injection and/or intake when using short acting esters.

Keep in mind, pituitary LH secretion automatically increases as the hormones diminish from your system. The elevated androgen levels are from an exogenous source and your endogenous production is suppressed. Therefore, waiting for the exogenous androgens to completely clear from your system, ultimately results in lower total concentrations of androgens in your system when beginning PCT. This leads to an unfavorable andgrogen:estrogen ratio and the well known "crash" effect.

*As previously mentioned, the actions of HCG take place independently and is not affected by exogenous hormones and/or preexisting HPTA suppression. There are no contradictions with respect to the effectiveness of HCG usage while exogenous hormones are present in your system.

PCT Protocol(s):

1.) 1,000 IUs HCG 3x/wk (mon/wed/fri) in combination with 20 mgs Nolvadex ED for the first 3 weeks. After, discontinue HCG and continue with 20 mgs Nolvadex ED for an additional 3 weeks.

2.) 1,000 IUs HCG 3x/wk (mon/wed/fri) in combination with 20 mgs Nolvadex ED and 50 mgs Clomid ED for the first 3 weeks. After, discontinue HCG and continue with 20 mgs Nolvadex ED and 50 mgs Clomid ED for an additional 3 weeks.

3.) 1,500 IUs HCG 3x/wk (mon/wed/fri) in combination with 20 mgs Nolvadex ED for the first 3 weeks. After, discontinue HCG and continue 20 mgs Nolvadex ED for an additional 3 weeks.

4.) 1,500 IUs HCG 3x/wk (mon/wed/fri) in combination with 100 mgs Clomid ED and 20 mgs Nolvadex ED for the first 3 weeks. After, discontinue HCG and continue with 50 mgs Clomid ED and 20 mgs Nolvadex ED for an additional 3 weeks.

Option one can be considered as a standard PCT protocol. This should apply to all basic cycles. Option 2 is generally the same as option one except for the addition of Clomid which is added as a supporting recovery aid. Option three and four incorporate a higher HCG dosage and have a relationship similar to options one and two in the sense that Clomid is incorporated in the latter as a supporting recovery aid.

*The majority of my experience is with intermediate to advanced athletes whom have completed multiple cycles with higher dosages. Therefore, based upon previous blood work results and considering the common or convenient preparations available, we have established that 1,500 IUs 3x/wk (mon/wed/fri) to be the optimal HCG dosage to begin with. The Nolvadex dosage remains unchanged however Clomid is utilized throughout the entire PCT at 100 mgs ED during the first 3 weeks and 50 mgs ED for the last 3 weeks.

HCG During Cycle:

HCG in combination with Nolvadex can and should be used during prolonged (12+/wks) and high dosage (1,000+mgs/wk) cycles. In this case, 500-1,000 IUs HCG ED in combination with 20 mgs Nolvadex ED for 7-10 days consecutively is administered mid cycle or intermittently (every 6-8 weeks) during the cycle.

Maintaining testicular volume during cycle does in fact improve recovery when compared to atrophied testes when beginning PCT. This solution addresses both testicular atrophy and prevention of Leydig cell desensitization (discussed next) associated with HCG usage.

Leydig Cell Desensitization:

Leydig cell desensitization does in fact occur to some degree with prolonged or high dose HCG usage. Using it continuously during a cycle could possibly cause the LH receptor to desensitize which in turn would ultimately render the PCT to be either less effective or possibly useless. This seems counterproductive. HCG will not be needed on cycles where the proper ancillaries are used and where the dosages/durations are realistic.

The previous summary was a general statement. The reality and good news is that Leydig cell desensitization due to HCG usage is blocked and/or minimized by Nolvadex. This occurs by suppressing HCG's ability to inhibit the conversion of 17 alpha hydroxyprogesterone to testosterone.

Additional Factors That Influence Recovery:

Factors that may complicate and/or delay recovery are elevated levels of estrogen and prolactin. Both of these hormones, when elevated, exert negative feedback on the HPTA. Estrogen and its side effects can be controlled by using an aromatase inhibitor such as Aromasin, Femara and Arimidex during cycles including aromatizing AAS. Prolactin and its side effects can be controlled by using an anti Prolactin such as Cabergoline (Dostinex) or Bromocriptine (Parodel) during cycles containing nandrolones. If these measures have not been addressed during the cycle, they will more than likely need to be addressed during PCT. In this scenario, the objective is to lower these hormones to acceptable levels in order to avoid the complications and/or delay in recovery. Blood work is imperative in evaluating the effectiveness of therapy. This will provide a clear and concise answer in regards to the adjustment of dosages and continuation of medication if necessary.

*There are numerous studies which support and refute the association of nandrolones and prolactin. However, based on first hand experience and blood work results, there are far more individuals today whom can testify that the usage of nandrolones can attribute to an increase in prolactin concentrations. In addition, many individuals have reported elevated prolactin levels during cycles which do not contain nandrolones. The common factor within these cases is supraphysiological levels of estrogen. Estrogens act directly at the pituitary level by causing the stimulation of lactotrophs which in turn enhances prolactin secretion. This is another reason why estrogen management in the form of an aromatase inhibitor should be included with cycles containing aromatizing AAS. Although not absolutely necessary and considering the necessary restoration of physiological estrogen values, there is sufficient evidence which suggests that aromatase inhibitors can improve and increase recovery rates.

Unsuccessful PCT:

In some cases the aforementioned post cycle therapy protocols as well as those which are not mentioned may be unsuccessful in the restoration of homeostasis. This should not warrant immediate concern. Many endocrinologists have concluded that the only form of treatment in this particular scenario is hormone replacement therapy (HRT).

This is far from the truth. The reason many endocrinologists have come to this conclusion is due to the fact that very few of them have the experience treating severe forms of secondary acquired hypogonadotropic hypogonadism. They are unfamiliar with proper protocols which include high dosage HCG administration and additional gonadotropin preparations such as HMG or rFSH. This complication puts the patient at risk for potential and unknown side effects in the eyes of the doctor. Therefore, HRT is a reasonable solution since it will quickly alleviate the majority of the uncomfortable symptoms that the patient is experiencing.

Aside from disappointing blood work results which illustrate the typical signs of an unsuccessful recovery, the key physical indicator that the treatment is unsuccessful is testicular atrophy. In this case, HCG is continued with the necessary adjustments in dosage and frequency until an increase in testicular volume has been achieved. There is no one size fits all protocol since every case varies and deserves an individualized approach. Subsequent changes will be based upon the individual's response to each particular stage. All the variable factors involved during the recovery process need to be considered. It's far from accurate to reach the conclusion that HRT is needed if one specific recovery protocol is not successful.

Ongoing Argument(s):

Hypothetically speaking, if testicular function and volume have been maintained during cycle with HCG, SERMs are then utilized to counteract the imbalance in the androgen:estrogen ratio encountered post cycle as the exogenous androgens diminish. This results in the prevention of estrogenic side effects while increasing pituitary LH secretion which in turn increases testosterone production.

There is nothing wrong with using a commonly referred to protocol which recommends 250-500 IUs HCG 1-2x/wk to be incorporated throughout the cycle. However, a significant cause for concern in regards to this protocol relates to the cessation of HCG once the cycle has completed and from that point on, the only substances used during PCT are SERMs which consist of Nolvadex and/or Clomid. Realistically, there is absolutely no guarantee that this formula prevents testicular atrophy to the extent where the overall volume and function of the testes are in an optimal state. Unfortunately, a large majority of individuals do not realize or are not aware that Leydig cell desensitization does in fact occur with prolonged or high dosage HCG usage. Therefore, users which follow this protocol whom do not incorporate Nolvadex or an aromatase inhibitor are now susceptible to Leydig cell desensitization which may render HCG usage post cycle ineffective when and if needed.

During conservative cycles, there is substantial evidence which exists that supports the effectiveness of the HCG during cycle and SERMs only post cycle protocol, especially when proper estrogen and prolactin management has been incorporated. However, this conclusion is much more difficult to achieve on heavy or prolonged cycles. Testicular volume should be maintained to an acceptable extent but that does not necessarily result in an improved recovery as severe HTPA suppression still exists which is not immediately repairable through the usage of SERMs.

The most common argument here when incorporating HCG during PCT is that HCG itself is suppressive. This is true and one particular way this occurs is though the constant binding of HCG which disrupts the endogenous pulsatile secretion of LH. A recent study which included the usage of 250 mcgs Ovidrel (rHCG) 2x/wk for 12 weeks demonstrated that the patients resumed normal HPTA function within four weeks upon cessation, without the usage of SERMs. What's even more interesting is that 250 mcgs rHCG is the equivalent of approximately 5,000 IUs uHCG. Therefore, putting things into perspective, a few additional weeks of suppression is nothing to be overly concerned about compared to and considering the 12 weeks of suppression incurred during the average cycle. The usage of HCG during PCT is a minimally intrusive variable where the benefits clearly exceed the associated costs.

Conclusion:

PCT should begin after the last injection and/or AAS intake. More specifically, a relative guideline to begin PCT is within 5-10 days when using long acting esters or 1-3 days when using short acting esters. This PCT protocol should consist of 1,000-1,500 IUs HCG 3x/wk (mod/wed/fri) in combination with 20 mgs Nolvadex ED and, if necessary, 50-100 mgs Clomid ED. The mid/intermittent cycle protocol of 500-1,000 IUs HCG and 20 mgs Nolvadex ED for 7 days consecutively can and should be utilized when necessary during prolonged (12+/wks) or heavy dosage (1,000+mgs/wk) cycles. In addition, blood work should be performed before beginning a cycle and after completing a cycle in order to establish baseline values and evaluate recovery, respectively.

If recovery is unsuccessful, HCG is continued with an adjustment in dosage and frequency as necessary until the increase in testicular volume and function have been achieved which is unlike the more typical, yet incorrect belief that HCG is only to be used for a short period of time. Once there is a plateau in the response to HCG, treatment with an FSH preparation such as human menopausal gonadotropin (HMG) or recombinant follicle stimulating hormone (rFSH) should be added at a starting dose of 75-150 IUs on alternate days. This continual usage is not necessary and avoidable in most cases by utilizing the mid/intermittent protocol previously mentioned, but it is much more common and less avoidable with long term (1+/yr) users, whom have not taken the suggested preventive measures, and/or improper recovery from previous cycles regardless of which protocol is chosen.

With the usage of HCG post cycle, your androgens are elevated but well below that of supraphysiological concentrations from exogenous hormones. In addition, a noteworthy difference is that the effect is through a direct stimulation of testicular production compared to the secondary nature of SERMs in conjunction in the presence of testis that are not guaranteed to be in an optimal functioning state. Upon completion, blood work will display significantly higher levels of LH, FSH and testosterone in this environment which includes HCG and SERMs during PCT versus HCG during cycle and SERMs only during PCT. This ultimately results in a more comfortable as well as tolerable recovery both physically and psychologically. In conclusion, HCG should always be included during PCT in combination with SERMs regardless of what protocol has been utilized during cycle to prevent testicular atrophy, in order to achieve an optimal recovery.

http://www.anabolicsouthamerica.com/...cle_Terapy.htm


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## hackskii

Another:

Heres another way, kind of similar;

Understanding Post Cycle "T" Recovery

By William Llewellyn

O.K. You have been on an awesome 4-month cycle of Sustanon and Dianabol. You've gained a massive 20 lbs, and are extremely pleased with your results. You can't stop looking in the mirror. But there is a problem now starting to eat away at you. You are going to run out of steroids very soon (you know you need a break anyway), and your testicles are the size of raisins. Your body is producing less testosterone than a 9-year-old girl, and you are scrambling to figure out what to do to avoid a nasty post-cycle crash that could potentially strip away some of your hard-earned muscle. The opinions on how to restore endogenous testosterone production post-cycle seem to be different everywhere you look. What option is best? Without an understanding of exactly what is going on in your body, and why certain compounds help to correct the situation, choosing the right post-cycle program can be quite confusing. In this article I would therefore like to discuss the role of anti-estrogens and HCG during this delicate window of time, while detailing an effective strategy for their use.

The Axis

The Hypothalamic-Pituitary-Testicular Axis, or HPTA for short, is the thermostat for your body's natural production of testosterone. Too much testosterone and the furnace will shut off. Not enough, and the heat is turned up, to put it very simply. For the purposes of our discussion here we can look at this regulating process as having three levels. At the top is the hypothalamic region of the brain, which releases the hormone GnRH (Gonadotropin-Releasing Hormone) when it senses a need for more testosterone. GnRH sends a signal to the second level of the axis, the pituitary, which releases Luteinizing Hormone in response. LH for short, this hormone stimulates the testes (level three) to secrete testosterone. The same sex steroids (testosterone, estrogen) that are produced serve to counter-balance things, by providing negative feedback signals (primarily to the hypothalamus and pituitary) to lower the secretion of testosterone when too much of this hormone is sensed. Synthetic steroids, of course, suppress testosterone the same way. This quick background of the testosterone-regulating axis is necessary to furthering our discussion, as we need to first look at the underlying mechanisms involved before we can understand why natural recovery of the HPTA post-cycle is a slow process. Only then can we implement an ancillary drug program to effectively deal with it.

Testicular Desensitization & Post-Cycle LH Levels

Although steroids suppress testosterone production primarily by lowering the level of gonadotropic hormones discussed above, the big roadblock to a restored HPTA after we come off the drugs is surprisingly not the level of LH itself. This problem is made clearly evident in a study published in Acta Endocrinologica back in 1975(1). Here blood parameters, including testosterone and LH levels, were monitored in male subjects whom were given testosterone enanthate injections of 250mg weekly for 21 weeks. Subjects remained under investigation for an additional 18 weeks after the drug was discontinued. At the start of the study, LH levels became suppressed in direct relation to the rise in testosterone, which is to be expected. Things looked very different, however, once the steroids had been withdrawn (see Figure I). LH levels went on the rise quickly (by the 3rd week), while testosterone barely budged for quite some time. In fact, on average it was more than 10 weeks before any noticeable movement started. This lack of correlation makes clear that the problem in getting androgen levels restored is not the level of LH, but in fact testicular atrophy and desensitization to this hormone. After a period of inactivation the testes have apparently lost mass (atrophied), making them unable to perform the workload required by heightened levels of LH.

Post Cycle Testosterone Levels

Figure I. LH and Testosterone measurements starting 1 week after the last injection of 250mg of testosterone enanthate (pretreated measures were 5 mU/ml and 4.5 ng/ml respectively). Note that between weeks 1 and 5, as testosterone levels are declining due to the cessation of exogenous androgen administration, LH levels are already rebounding. From weeks 5 to 10 testosterone levels are at or very near baseline, to spite the substantial LH levels by this point. No significant increase in testosterone is noted until after the 10-week mark.

The Role of Anti-estrogens

It is important to understand that anti-estrogens alone do not do much to restore endogenous testosterone release after a cycle. Normally they only foster LH by blocking the negative feedback of estrogens, and we now see that LH rebounds quickly without help anyway. Plus, post cycle there is not an elevated level of estrogen for anti-estrogens to block, as testosterone (now suppressed) is a major substrate used for the synthesis of estrogens in men. Serum estrogen levels will actually be lower here as a result, not higher. Any estrogen rebound that occurs post-cycle likewise happens concurrently with a rebound in testosterone levels, not prior to it (note there is an imbalance in the ratio post cycle, but this is another topic altogether). We are seeing no mechanism in which anti-estrogenic drugs can really help here. We can see why this fact would not be difficult to overlook, however. The medical literature is filled with references showing anti-estrogenic drugs like Clomid and Nolvadex to increase LH and testosterone levels, and in normal situations these drugs do indeed increase endogenous androgen production by blocking the negative feedback of estrogens. Combine this with the fact that just as many studies can be found to show that steroid use lowers LH levels when suppressing testosterone, and we can see how easy it would be to jump to the conclusion that post-cycle we need to focus on restoring LH. We would miss the true problem of testicular desensitization unless we were really looking into the actual recovery rates of the hormones involved. When we do, we immediately see little value in using anti-estrogenic drugs.

HCG

So we now see, contrary to the dominating opinion of the times, that anti-estrogens alone will do little to raise testosterone levels in the early weeks of the post-cycle window. This leaves us to focus on a very different level of the HPTA in order to hasten recovery: the testes. For this we will need the injectable drug HCG. If you are not familiar with it, HCG, or Human Chorionic Gonadotropin, is a prescription fertility agent that mimics the bodies own natural LH. Although the testes are equally desensitized to this drug as LH (they both work through the same mechanism), we are administering it as a measured drug and are therefore not constrained by the limits of our own LH production. We similarly can use HCG to provide a bolus dose of LH (of our choosing), which works only to augment the recovering LH levels we already have in the body. In essence we are looking to shock them with an overwhelmingly high level of LH activity, coming from both endogenous and exogenous sources. We want it to reach a level far above what our body, even when supported by anti-estrogens, could possibly do on its own. The result can be a rapid restoration of original testicular mass and functioning, which would allow normal levels of testosterone to be output much sooner than without such an ancillary program. What we are looking at now is HCG actually being the pivotal post-cycle drug, while anti-estrogens are relegated to a supportive role at best.

Finalizing the Program

An ideal post-cycle recovery program will focus on two things really. The first is hitting the testes hard with HCG. It is important, however, not to overuse this drug. Taken for too long, or at too high a dosage, the LH receptor will actually become desensitized to LH(2) , which may further exacerbate our post-cycle problem instead of helping it (this is why I am not in favor of regular HCG use on-cycle). My experience with HCG has led me to feel comfortable using it for a course of three weeks, at a dosage of maybe 5000-7500IU weekly. Often the last week I limit the dose to 2,500IU, unless the cycle has been particularly long or potent. This is timed so at least half of the total administered drug dosage will be given when there is still exogenous steroid in the body. On our graph above this would be at about the 3-week mark after the last injection of testosterone. This will give the testes some time to get back into shape before the baseline is actually hit with T levels. Secondly, Anti-estrogens are used to play a supportive role at the same time, so 20mg of Nolvadex or 50-100mg of Clomid would typically be added ( my last article for Mind and Muscle discusses the comparative differences with these two agents). This is to combat the suppressive effects of estrogen as testosterone levels start to go back up, as well as potential side effects (HCG has been shown to increase testicular aromatase activity as well (3)). Although in the first couple of weeks the anti-estrogen does little, it may indeed be helpful when testosterone levels actually start to get back up near normal. To further stimulate the HPTA, and support continuingly high LH levels, the anti-estrogen remains to be used for 2 to 3 weeks after the HCG therapy has been stopped. A sample program, as it would be instituted in our sample post-cycle window, is provided below.

Sample Post-cycle Plan:

Week 3: 5000IU HCG total + 20mg Nolvadex daily

Week 4: 5000IU HCG total + 20mg Nolvadex daily

Week 5: 2500IU HCG total + 20mg Nolvadex daily

Week 6: 20mg Nolvadex daily

Week 7: 20mg Nolvadex daily

Week 8: 20mg Nolvadex daily

In Closing

I hope this article provided a well-needed new look at the mechanisms involved in post-cycle testosterone recovery. Indeed I believe it should debunk a commonly held belief these days, as we seen now that those advocating the sole use of Clomid post cycle are sorely missing the mark. The problem goes much deeper than just getting LH levels back. In fact, we see that LH doesn't even need much help kicking back into gear, and a drug like Clomid will do very little to help this anyway in the absence of significant estrogen levels anyway. HCG is a drug with undeniable usefulness during the post-cycle window, and many bodybuilders have been much too quick to abandon it. It is truly fundamental to an effective recovery program, and would not consider any dose or combination of anti-estrogens or aromatase inhibitors capable of doing the job without it.


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## hackskii

This is funny that I found my own article on another board and thought I have read this before.

This is in rebuttel to Jenetic's article.

Now I feel that using too little HCG will not have the desired effects to bring back testicular function after a cycle.

That article was nicely written but I do see some flaws in it.

Not picking on the article but coming from Swale's end that does allot of blood work; I have a problem with the post as it contradicts what Swale suggests for instance.

First advising the use of 1500iu of HCG is just too much.

This is a direct quote from his article on HCG. For those who do not know Dr. Swale he is a HRT Dr and probably one of the best in the world. He even teaches endocrinologists in lectures. Now that we know his background I feel he is more qualified in his field than any other poster on boards. Not only that this is his job and he looks at blood work every day.

His quote:

"It is important that no more than 500IU of HCG be administered on any given day. There is only just so much stimulation possible, and exceeding that not only is wasteful, doing so has important negative consequences. Higher doses overly stimulate testicular aromatase, which inappropriately raises estrogen levels, and brings on the detrimental effects of same. It also causes Leydig cell desentization to LH, and we are therefore inducing primary hypogonadism while perhaps treating secondary hypogonadism. 250IU QD is an effective, and safe, dose. After all, we are merely replacing that which is lost to inhibition.

All administer their HCG subcutaneously, and dosage may be adjusted as necessary (I have yet to see more than 350IU per dose required)."

QD is every 3 days and this is just the way he writes it for some reason I don't know but it is every 3 days.

Here is another of his Quotes from a different article.

His quote:

"I advise my AAS patients to use small amounts of HCG (250IU to 500IU) every third day, right from the beginning of the cycle. This serves to maintain testicular form and function. This is infinitely better than waiting until they have seriously atrophied. It makes more sense to me to keep the horse in the barn, so to speak, then to have to chase it across three counties later on. I am also a big fan of maintaining estrogen within physiological ranges. Both therapies have been shown to hasten recovery.

Any more than 500IU of HCG per day causes too much aromatase activity. This drives up estrogen levels, unopposed by increased testosterone production. Some feel aromatase is actually toxic to the Leydig cells of the testes. You are then inducing primary hypogonadism (which is permanent) while treating steroid-induced secondary (hypogonadotrophic) hypogonadism (which is temporary--hopefully).

If 250IU or 500IU on two days each week isn't enough to stave off testicular atrophy, then I recommend using it more days each week (as opposed to taking larger doses). In fact, I wouldn't mind having a guy use 250IU per day ALL THROUGH the cycle. Those that have tell me they thus avoid that edgy, burned-out feeling they usually get. They also say they simply feel better each day. Subjective reports, to be sure, but they are hard not to appreciate. Especially when HCG is so inexpensive."

As you can see here there is direct contradiction between and I would take Swale's advice over pretty much any others. He has used gear too so I do think he has more credibility too.

First off Jenetic suggests it is length that causes desensitizing and not amount. Swale on the other hand suggests it is amount and not length.

Let's do the math here.

1500x 3 times a week is 4500iu for 3 weeks (21 days).

250 every 3 days is 2000iu 22 days.

Less than half was used. If he did say "(I have yet to see more than 350IU per dose required)." Why use more?

Ok the issue of nandrolones and prolactin.

I e-mailed him (Swale) on this issue directly here is his e-mail to me:

Quote:

Originally Posted by SWALE

I have never seen deca elevate PRL.

Prog inhibits the conversion to DHT. DHT opposes estrogen by several different mechanisms.

I have to get back to work now... .

Ok, the PRL is abbreviated for prolactin and the Prog is abbreviated for progesterone.

I was suggesting to him about prolactin and shutdown and my supplementation of progesterone as suggested by my HRT Dr.

Now here is another E-mail I got from him on progesterone.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SWALE

If you feel better on progesterone, then do what works for you, of course. there is something else going on there, as prog enhances estrogenic effects, not inhibits same.

you might want to share with the other Bro that it makes no sense to take dostinex with tren, etc. inhibiting natural production has no benefit while supplementing a hormone's agonist. the body does that on its own, if necessary, and you risk lowering prolactin too much. this compromises immune function and also puts the LH receptors at risk.

HPTA-suppression from deca definitely is due to progestogenic effects there.

prog inhibits DHT, and that leaves estrogen to its feminizing features. simple as that .

So in my interpritation of this all, either Swale is wrong or Jenetic is wrong as niether one can be correct.

I also use small amounts of HCG myself and do notice good results using the amounts Swale suggests.

(UK-muscle article)


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## hackskii

Another snip from yet another site

Swale's HCG advice (excellent read)

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by swale (MD / hrt specailist). originally posted at steroidology

I advise my AAS patients to use small amounts of HCG (250IU to 500IU) two days each week, right from the beginning of the cycle. This serves to maintain testicular form and function. It makes more sense to me to keep the horse in the barn, so to speak, then to have to chase it across three counties later on. I am also a big fan of maintaining estrogen within physiological ranges. Both therapies have been shown to hasten recovery.

Any more than 500IU of HCG per day causes too much aromatase activity. Some feel aromatase is actually toxic to the Leydig cells of the testes. You are then inducing primary hypogonadism (which is permanent) while treating steroid-induced secondary (hypogonadotrophic) hypogonadism (which is temporary--hopefully).

If 250IU or 500IU on two days each week isn?t enough to stave off testicular atrophy, then I recommend using it more days each week (as opposed to taking larger doses). In fact, I wouldn?t mind having a guy use 250IU per day ALL THROUGH the cycle. Those that have tell me they thus avoid that edgy, burned-out feeling they usually get. They also say they simply feel better each day. Subjective reports, to be sure, but they are hard not to appreciate. Especially when HCG is so inexpensive.

The testes are then ready, willing and able to again produce testosterone at the end of the cycle. LH levels rise fairly rapidly, but endogenous testosterone production is limited by lack of use. I also want to make sure a SERM, such as Clomid or Nolvadex, is at effective serum dosage (around 100mg QD for Clomid, 20-40mg QD for Nolvadex) when serum androgen levels drop to a concentration roughly equal to 200mg of testosterone per week. That is when androgenic inhibition at the HP no longer dominates over estrogenic antagonism with respect to inducing LH production. Of course, if the fellow has been doing Clomid or Nolvadex all along the way (and I now prefer Nolvadex over Clomid, due to the possibility of negative sides from the Clomid), he is all set to simply continue it at the end (no need to switch from one to the other). BTW, I see no evidence of any benefit in using BOTH SERM?s at the same time. I used to think a couple of weeks of the SERM was enough; now I like to see an entire month after the last shot of AAS (and migration of long to short esters as the cycle matures). Tapering the SERM is probably a good idea during the last week, as well.

I want my patients to stop taking HCG within a week after the end of the cycle. The testosterone production it induces will further inhibit recovery, as will using Androgel, or any other testosterone preparation, while in recovery. There is no escaping this, as there is no such thing as a ?bridge?. Just because you are not inhibiting the HPTA for the entire 24 hours does not mean you are not suppressing it at all. IOW, you can?t ?fool? the body?it is smarter than you are.

I like Arimidex during the cycle (in fact, consider use of an AI while taking aromatisables a necessity) but it ABSOLUTELY should not be used post cycle (even though it has been shown to increase LH production) because the risk of driving estrogen too low, and therefore further damaging an already compromised Lipid Profile, is too great (this also drives libido back into the ground?and we don?t want that, do we?).

All this is meant to get my guys through recovery as fast as possible (the real goal, yes?). So far, all of them who have tried it have reported they are recovering faster than when they have tried other

JC: Dr. John has updated the original paper you published. Here it is:

My New HCG Protocol Paper

This paper is about to be published in The American Academy of Anti-Aging Medicine 2004 Clinical Updates:

AN UPDATE TO THE CRISLER HCG PROTOCOL

By John Crisler, DO

In my paper ?My Current Best Thoughts on How to Administer TRT for Men?, published in A4M?s 2004/5 Anti-Aging Clinical Protocols, I introduced a new protocol where small doses of Human Chorionic Gonadotrophin (HCG) are regularly added to traditional TRT (either weekly IM testosterone cypionate or daily cream/gel). The reasons and benefits of this protocol are as follows, along with a new improvement I wish to share:

Any physician who administers TRT will, within the first few months of doing so, field complaints from their patients because they are now experiencing troubling testicular atrophy. Irrespective of the numerous and abundant benefits of TRT, men never enjoy seeing their genitals shrinking! Testicular atrophy occurs because the depressed LH level, secondary to the HPTA suppression TRT induces, no longer supports them. It is well known that HCG?a Luteinizing Hormone (LH) analog?will effectively, and dramatically, restore the testicles to previous form and function. It accomplishes this due to shared moiety between the alpha subunits of both hormones.

So, that satisfies an aesthetic consideration which should not be ignored. Now let?s delve into the pharmacodynamics of the TRT medications. For those employing injectable

testosterone cypionate, the cypionate ester provides a 5-8 day half-life, depending upon the specific metabolism, activity level, and overall health of the patient. It is now well-established that appropriate TRT using IM injections must be dosed at weekly intervals, in order to avoid seating the patient on a hormonal, and emotional, roller coaster. Adding in some HCG toward the end of the weekly ?cycle? compensates for the drop in serum androgen levels by the half-life of the cypionate ester. Certainly the body thrives on regularity, and supplementing the TRT with endogenous testosterone production at just the right time?without inappropriately raising androgen OR estrogen (more on that later)?approximates the excellent performance stability of transdermal testosterone delivery systems for those who, for whatever reason or reasons, prefer test cyp.

But there?s another metabolic reason to employ this protocol. The P450 Side Chain Cleavage enzyme, which converts CHOL into pregnenolone at the initiation of all three metabolic pathways CHOL serves as precursor (the sex hormones, glucocorticoids and mineralcorticoids), is actively stimulated, or depressed, by LH concentrations. It is intuitively consistent that during conditions of lowered testosterone levels, commensurate increases in LH production would serve to stimulate this conversion from CHOL into these pathways, thereby feeding more raw material for increased hormone production. And vice versa. Thus the addition of HCG (which also stimulates the P450scc enzyme) helps restore a more natural balance of the hormones within this pathway in patients who are entirely, or even partially, HPTA-suppressed.

It is important that no more than 500IU of HCG be administered on any given day. There is only just so much stimulation possible, and exceeding that not only is wasteful, doing so has important negative consequences. Higher doses overly stimulate testicular aromatase, which inappropriately raises estrogen levels, and brings on the detrimental effects of same. It also causes Leydig cell desentization to LH, and we are therefore inducing primary hypogonadism while perhaps treating secondary hypogonadism. 250IU QD is an effective, and safe, dose. After all, we are merely replacing that which is lost to inhibition.

In my previous report I recommended 250IU of HCG twice per week for all TRT patients, taken the day of, along with the day before, the weekly test cyp injection. After looking at countless lab printouts, listening to subjective reports from patients, and learning more about HCG, I am now shifting that regimen forward one day. In other words, my test cyp TRT patients now take their HCG at 250IU two days before, as well as the day immediately previous to, their IM shot. All administer their HCG subcutaneously, and dosage may be adjusted as necessary (I have yet to see more than 350IU per dose required).

I made this change after realizing that the previous HCG protocol was boosting serum testosterone levels too much, as the test cyp serum concentrations rise, approaching its peak at roughly the 72 hour mark. The original goal of supporting serum androgen levels with HCG had overshot its mark.

Those TRT patients who prefer a transdermal testosterone, or even testosterone pellets (although I am not in favor of same), take their HCG every third day. They needn?t concern themselves with diminishing serum androgen levels from their testosterone delivery system. These patients will, of course, notice an increase in serum androgen levels above baseline.

While HCG, as sole TRT, is still considered treatment of choice for hypogonadotrophic hypogonadism by many , my experience is that it just does not bring the same subjective benefits as pure testosterone delivery systems do?even when similar serum androgen levels are produced from comparable baseline values. However, supplementing the more ?traditional? TRT of transdermal, or injected, testosterone with HCG stabilizes serum levels, prevents testicular atrophy, helps rebalance expression of other hormones, and brings reports of greatly increased sense of well-being and libido. My patients absolutely love it. As time goes on, we are coming to appreciate HCG as a much more powerful--and wonderful--hormone than previously given credit.

Copyright John Crisler, DO 2004. This article may, in its entirety or in part, be reprinted and republished without permission, provided that credit is given to its author, with copyright notice and 2. www.AllThingsMale.com clearly displayed as source. Written permission from Dr. Crisler is required for all other uses.


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## hackskii

Oh hell another ripoff, I must be bored

Although I have not read this one yet to comment on.

HCG FAQ

What is HCG?- hcg stands for Human Chorionic Gonadotropin.

Where does hcg come from?-it is extracted from the urine of pregnant women.

Is hcg a scheduled medication?- certain states in the usa it is now a scheduled drug, but mostly its considered similar to having liquidex or clomid.

What is hcg normally used for?-it is used to help females get pregnant, and can be used to stimulate testosterone production in males.

How does hcg work?- hcg mimics LH(leutenizing hormone). The presence of LH causes the Leydig cells in the gonads to produce testosterone. This effect also restores the size of the testes rather quickly if they were suppressed from a cycle.

Can I use hcg only after a cycle?-no you shouldn?t. it is better than nothing, but clomid or nolva are far better plans. Since hcg mimics lh, your body wont begin producing its own lh, as it sees no need to because test levels are high. You stop the hcg, your balls stop making test until your body begins producing adequate levels of its own lh, and that may take a while if you don?t use clomid or nolvadex to stimulate lh production.

Can hcg be used w/out steroids to boost test production above baseline?- yes. It is not recommended however. Continued use of hcg will desensitize the leydig cells to lh, meaning once you stop using the hcg as an artificial lh, you will crash bad. The natural lh production once restored by using nolvadex or clomid, may not be as effective as it once was. to boost natural test above baseline, anastrozole, nolvadex and clomid are better choices.

What should hcg be used for?-hcg is commonly used by bodybuilders on either very heavy or very long cycles, when the hpta gets severely suppressed. Although hcg can be used in almost any cycle, the benefits are most pronounced on heavy/long ones.

How long does hcg boost testosterone for?- hcg can boost testosterone for up to 5 days following the last dose, although the drugs halflife is very short, and its no longer active at that point.

Can hcg cause gyno?-Yes. Estrogen is elevated by two ways from hcg use. Primarily from the sharp rise in testosterone, which allows more testosterone to aromatize to estrogen. Secondly hcg can cause a small amount of estrogen to be produced which is not from the result of aromatizing, and this is the reason that a combination of an anti aromatose such as liquidex/arimidex/letrozole and a estrogen receptor blocker such as nolvadex are ideally used. The nolvadex may also offer some additional benefit to help avoid a negative estrogen feedback to the hpta during hcg therapy, which would otherwise slightly lessen the effectiveness of the therapy.

How does hcg come packaged?-you get 2 vials or amps, 1 has the powdered hcg in it, and the other has a diluent in it(solvent). The diluent is typically bacteriostatic water, or sterile water w/ .09% sodium chloride. Depending on the brand and version, the package commonly comes w/ enough diluent to make concentrations ranging from 250-10,000iu per ml.

If your package is 5000iu, and you add 1ml diluent, you have 5000iu per ml.

If you add 5ml diluent, you final mix is then 1000iu per ml.

If you add 10ml diluent, then 500iu per ml and so on.

This is simple math, and you don?t wanna screw it up-know what dose you are taking!

If your package doesn?t include enough diluent to make the concentration you want, you have 2 options to make it easy to accurately measure your doses.

1-buy some insulin syringes, U-100 type. On the graduated markings, the 100iu mark is equal to 1ml, the 50iu is .5ml etc. THIS DOES NOT MEAN IF YOU FILL IT TO THE 100IU MARK THAT YOU ARE TAKING 100IU OF HCG! Iu?s are not a measurement of volume or weight, they are a measure of effectiveness for a desired response from specific drugs/compounds. Every compound is different. These are insulin syringes, and they are made for insulin-not hcg. Insulin is the same iu concentration per ml everytime(if its u100 type), hcg is not. Imagine if you made your hcg 10,000iu per ml. if you fill the insulin syringe up to 100iu mark, you now have 10,000iu in there! Not good. You must understand this.

So if you had 5000iu per ml, and wanted to take a 500iu shot, you would inject 10iu on the insulin syringe scale.

2-buy some bacteriostatic water off the internet, its easily found. Simply add more to dilute it to the desired conscentration. Making lower concentrations are easier and more accurately dosed. Then it can accurately be measured w/ a regular syringe.

Mix the two together, they dissolve very easily. Keep things sterile folks. Unused hcg can be refrigerated and is ok to use for about a month after the initial mixing. You can purchase empty sterile vials from a few online sites cheap. http://www.getpinz.com is a good place to get insulin syringes as well as bacteriostatic water.

Heres a typical example of a proper post cycle recovery including hcg. Dosage will vary depending on how suppressed your hpta is, and how well you respond to hcg, but this is normally a good starting point, more is not necessarily better. Some will respond better to 750iu ed or even 1000iu ed, actually everyone will respond better to 1000iu ed, but we don?t want to desensitize the leydig cells, which would make clomid treatment less effective. Everyone is different, start at 500iu ed, and if after 5-6 days your balls aren?t noticeably bigger and hanging lower, consider a slightly higher dose. I know I respond very well and quickly to small doses, but that may not be the case for you.

Here is a good link for a profile on hcg. i however dont agree w/ everthing said in it, particuarly the dosing schedule they recomend click here

**********

Find out when you would normally start your clomid therapy.

Inject hcg 500iu everyday, either intramuscular or sub q, for 10-14 days. Place the hcg so that the LAST hcg shot is about 5 days before clomid therapy starts.

Run clomid like you normally would, which is usually 3-4 wks of clomid therapy in a descending dose. Using 300mg clomid the first day is a good idea.

Anti estrogens should definitely be used during during hcg therapy. Both an anti aromatose such as liquidex, arimidex, letrozole, or aromasin, as well as nolvadex ideally should be used, although just nolvadex can suffice, as well as just an anti aromatose. However everyone is different when it comes to sensitivity to estrogen induced gyno. A combo of both types of anti e?s is best and ensures your safety from gyno. i highly recomend having nolvadex included ALWAYS!

An example cycle:

Wks 1-10 enanthate 1000mg wk

Wks 1-12 tren 100mg ed

Wks 5-12 winstrol 50mg ed.

Wks 1-16 liquidex 1mg ed

Last shot of enanthate is day 70.

Last shot of winny and tren are day 84.

Hcg is run days 72-82, 500iu ed.

Nolvadex is run 10mg ed days 72-87.

Clomid is run on days 87-108.

Some may prefer to use nolvadex in place of clomid, but that?s not the discussion here, although its ok to do so. Some may also prefer to use higher doses and/or longer clomid therapy, which is also ok.

By using the proper combo of post cycle therapy drugs along w/ proper placement and timing, chances of an excellent recovery are maximized. You keep more gains, and you don?t crash hard.

Clearance times for various AS for clomid therapy to begin:

Anadrol50/Anapolan50.......8-12 hours

deca Durobolan................3 weeks

Dianabol.........................4-8 hours

Equipoise........................17-21 days

Finajet/Trenbolone............3 days

Primobolan Depot..............10-14 days

Sustanon.........................3 weeks

Test Cypionate.................2 weeks

Test Enthenate/Testoviron..2 weeks

Test Propionate.................3 days

Test Suspension................4-8 hours

Winstrol...........................8-12 hours

If your taking substantial doses ex. 1g+ of test, you may wish to add 1/3 extra time to the above clearance times before starting clomid. This is optional


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## raptorpower

Hello, Im new to this forum and pretty new to steroids.. current weight-- 158 lbs , 5'7" so im not trying to get too insanely bulky because im not that tall. I want gains but not a heavy cycle. My 1st cycle a little over a year ago, was approx. 16 weeks and practically no PCT not to mention extremely irregular timing with my shots, :cursing: because i was not educated enough. So i really want to do things right this time.

Roids include-

<<deca-300=300mg ml="">>= Nandrolone Decanoate

Also, <<test-400=400mg ml="">> Testosterone Blend====>> >>400mg/mlTest-Propionate30mg, test-isocaproate60mg, Test-phenilpropianate60mg, Test-Decaonate100mg, test-undecaonate150mg

Also have HCG, clomid-25mg, nolva

I just started my second cycle of Deca-300 and test-400 and i really need a little guidance. I'm shooting for a 10-12 (depending on results) week cycle, tomorrow i will make my first week!

1-1 week - Tuesday- 0.5cc Deca+ 0.5cc Test // Friday- 0.5cc Test

2-10 week- Tuesday- 0.75cc Deca+ 0.75cc Test // Friday- 0.75 cc Test (Second week starts this 12/15/09 on Tuesday)

when should i incorporate the HCG and AI's?? HCG or/clomid or /nolva during my cycle?? if so how soon? for how long? :confused1:

Are my dosages appropriate? I should i kick it up to Deca- 1cc a week, and test x2 1cc a week??

THank you for your time and input, its greatly appreciated!! :beer: </test-400=400mg></deca-300=300mg>


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## stonecoldzero

Hackskii -

Thanks for posting the above .... and for being open-minded enough to post some contradictory information, giving everyone the opportunity to reach their own conclusions.

I relied almost exclusively upon a combination of both Swale and Crisler (and the other guy whose name I can't remember) in the design and understanding of my TRT.

IMO (through personal experience) I have found Swale's T + HCG + AI protocol life-changing for a low T 45 year old, albeit after some trial and error adjustments for dosages. The difference it has made to so many areas of my life has been exceptional.

In all honesty, I believe some of the info you've posted is the most important on this site for the over 40s and anyone suffering genuine low T issues. I had though about starting a similar thread but the fact that you've done it gives it that much more validity and creedence. 

Once again, many thanks. :thumbup1:


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## Old but not out

raptorpower said:


> Hello, Im new to this forum and pretty new to steroids.. current weight-- 158 lbs , 5'7" so im not trying to get too insanely bulky because im not that tall. I want gains but not a heavy cycle. My 1st cycle a little over a year ago, was approx. 16 weeks and practically no PCT not to mention extremely irregular timing with my shots, :cursing: because i was not educated enough. So i really want to do things right this time.
> 
> Roids include-
> 
> <<deca-300=300mg ml="">>= Nandrolone Decanoate
> 
> Also, <<test-400=400mg ml="">> Testosterone Blend====>> >>400mg/mlTest-Propionate30mg, test-isocaproate60mg, Test-phenilpropianate60mg, Test-Decaonate100mg, test-undecaonate150mg
> 
> Also have HCG, clomid-25mg, nolva
> 
> I just started my second cycle of Deca-300 and test-400 and i really need a little guidance. I'm shooting for a 10-12 (depending on results) week cycle, tomorrow i will make my first week!
> 
> 1-1 week - Tuesday- 0.5cc Deca+ 0.5cc Test // Friday- 0.5cc Test
> 
> 2-10 week- Tuesday- 0.75cc Deca+ 0.75cc Test // Friday- 0.75 cc Test (Second week starts this 12/15/09 on Tuesday)
> 
> when should i incorporate the HCG and AI's?? HCG or/clomid or /nolva during my cycle?? if so how soon? for how long? :confused1:
> 
> Are my dosages appropriate? I should i kick it up to Deca- 1cc a week, and test x2 1cc a week??
> 
> THank you for your time and input, its greatly appreciated!! :beer: </test-400=400mg></deca-300=300mg>


Clomid and nolva after cycle.

AI and HCG during cycle.

HCG around 250iu - 3 x per week

AI (aromasin?) - not sure of the dose you want there - I generally go 0.5mg ED for every 500mg of aromatisable steroid per week


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## hackskii

Oh man, that was 3.5 years ago, I have changed some of my thinking sense then.

HCG during the cycle.

Clomid and nolva once the clearance time of the gear has reached about normal levels.

Deca in my opinion is a tricky one to recover from if you are pre-disposed to long recoveries with this.

Most of my original stuff I learned was from Swale, but after Scally I modified my thinking.

Single biggest setback for recovery is:

*Supressive gear*

*
*

*
Not enough HCG to return testicular function*

*
*

*
Starting too early*

*
*

*
Not using an AI if you are using aromitizing gear (estrogen is approx 200 times supressive as testosterone).*


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## Nickthegreek

Very interesting!


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## krol.saven

I've been reading many forums about when to use HCG and everyone seems to be divided between the following:

Take HCG during cycle and stop a week before PCT

Start taking HCG a couple of weeks before end of cycle and increase dose during PCT

Take HCG only during PCT

Take HCG only during "waiting period" between cycle and PCT

Which advice should I follow? Also, pardon if this is a newbie question but if I'm taking a testosterone enanthate & propionate mix with a relatively short half life (about a week) I can't exactly take nothing a week after my cycle, then take HCG, then wait another week, then start PCT as some have suggested. With my cycle I have PCT planned a week after the last injection of testosterone. I'm confused about dosing for HCG as well. Lots of varying information : /


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## Eryximachus

krol.saven said:


> I've been reading many forums about when to use HCG and everyone seems to be divided between the following:
> 
> Take HCG during cycle and stop a week before PCT
> 
> Start taking HCG a couple of weeks before end of cycle and increase dose during PCT
> 
> Take HCG only during PCT
> 
> Take HCG only during "waiting period" between cycle and PCT
> 
> Which advice should I follow? Also, pardon if this is a newbie question but if I'm taking a testosterone enanthate & propionate mix with a relatively short half life (about a week) I can't exactly take nothing a week after my cycle, then take HCG, then wait another week, then start PCT as some have suggested. With my cycle I have PCT planned a week after the last injection of testosterone. I'm confused about dosing for HCG as well. Lots of varying information : /


I would start a new thread. The standard protocol, once AAS clears your system, is 2500iu EOD of HCG for 8 shots total, clomid at 50mg 2x a day for 30 days, and Nolvadex at 20mg a day for 45 days. The time to commence PCT with long esters is dose dependent. The more you take, the longer it will take to get subnormal baseline values.


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## hackskii

krol.saven said:


> I've been reading many forums about when to use HCG and everyone seems to be divided between the following:
> 
> Take HCG during cycle and stop a week before PCT
> 
> Start taking HCG a couple of weeks before end of cycle and increase dose during PCT
> 
> Take HCG only during PCT
> 
> Take HCG only during "waiting period" between cycle and PCT
> 
> Which advice should I follow? Also, pardon if this is a newbie question but if I'm taking a testosterone enanthate & propionate mix with a relatively short half life (about a week) I can't exactly take nothing a week after my cycle, then take HCG, then wait another week, then start PCT as some have suggested. With my cycle I have PCT planned a week after the last injection of testosterone. I'm confused about dosing for HCG as well. Lots of varying information : /


Well, depending on the dosing you are doing, a week might be to early to start PCT.

What is it you are taking and how much?

Did you use HCG during your cycle?

If so how much?

Problem is if you do not use HCG during your cycle you will need it during PCT depending on what you took, short small cycles probably can get away with no HCG.

Long hard cycles using lets day deca, you have to have a PCT.


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## Samuelson86

Hi, I've read thro most of your post and it says that prolonged use of HCG can cause desensitisation. I am at week 5 of a 20week cycle, started HCG at week 2 at 500ui a week. Is 20 weeks to long 2 run it this way?


----------



## benki11

Samuelson86 said:


> Hi, I've read thro most of your post and it says that prolonged use of HCG can cause desensitisation. I am at week 5 of a 20week cycle, started HCG at week 2 at 500ui a week. Is 20 weeks to long 2 run it this way?


Would like to know as well


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## hackskii

I would say no as the total would be 20 weeks x 500 = 10,000iu so I see no problem other than 500 once a week might not be enough to keep stimulation.


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## Samuelson86

hackskii said:


> I would say no as the total would be 20 weeks x 500 = 10,000iu so I see no problem other than 500 once a week might not be enough to keep stimulation.


I have enough to run at 1000ui for last 10-12 weeks. Would that be a good idea? 500ui once per week for 8-10 weeks then 500ui twice a week for remaining weeks?


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## hackskii

Samuelson86 said:


> I have enough to run at 1000ui for last 10-12 weeks. Would that be a good idea? 500ui once per week for 8-10 weeks then 500ui twice a week for remaining weeks?


Yah, I would use it if you have it.

Unless it is over a month old, then you may need to whack it those last 2 weeks before it kicks off and goes bad.


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## Samuelson86

hackskii said:


> Yah, I would use it if you have it.
> 
> Unless it is over a month old, then you may need to whack it those last 2 weeks before it kicks off and goes bad.


Its all drawn into slins and frozen so no probs there.


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## hackskii

Samuelson86 said:


> Its all drawn into slins and frozen so no probs there.


You are good to go then.


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## sean89

hackskii said:


> Oh man, that was 3.5 years ago, I have changed some of my thinking sense then.
> 
> HCG during the cycle.
> 
> Clomid and nolva once the clearance time of the gear has reached about normal levels.
> 
> Deca in my opinion is a tricky one to recover from if you are pre-disposed to long recoveries with this.
> 
> Most of my original stuff I learned was from Swale, but after Scally I modified my thinking.
> 
> Single biggest setback for recovery is:
> 
> *Supressive gear*
> 
> *
> *
> 
> *
> Not enough HCG to return testicular function*
> 
> *
> *
> 
> *
> Starting too early*
> 
> *
> *
> 
> *
> Not using an AI if you are using aromitizing gear (estrogen is approx 200 times supressive as testosterone).*


What do you mean by starting too early? Is that a reference to age?

I'm 21 and was gonna do my first pinning cycle - test prop 100mg at 3 times a week for 6 weeks - monday, thursday, sunday - and was gonna wait to see how my testicles respond before pinning HCG probably at the 250 Swale dose to try it out because Scally PCT seems extreme next to other things I've read.

Probably a very stupid question but can the HCG be jabbed the same time as the test prop?

Also, I was wondering what relationship there is with half-life to how suppressive the gear is?

My first oral only cycle was just seeing how I responded to Dbol and Anavar. In my purely-in-the-interests-of-science-w4nk, I found it to be less enjoyable when Anavar was in my system than with Dbol.

On the same basis, I agree with you that AIs should not be used in PCT because after I had my aromasin pill, my libido temporarily lessened.

Was wondering also, what is the average endo test production in mg per week for someone of my age? And will that production continue on HCG?

Cheers


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## hackskii

blondOsonic said:


> What do you mean by starting too early? Is that a reference to age?
> 
> I'm 21 and was gonna do my first pinning cycle - test prop 100mg at 3 times a week for 6 weeks - monday, thursday, sunday - and was gonna wait to see how my testicles respond before pinning HCG probably at the 250 Swale dose to try it out because Scally PCT seems extreme next to other things I've read.
> 
> Probably a very stupid question but can the HCG be jabbed the same time as the test prop?
> 
> Also, I was wondering what relationship there is with half-life to how suppressive the gear is?
> 
> My first oral only cycle was just seeing how I responded to Dbol and Anavar. In my purely-in-the-interests-of-science-w4nk, I found it to be less enjoyable when Anavar was in my system than with Dbol.
> 
> On the same basis, I agree with you that AIs should not be used in PCT because after I had my aromasin pill, my libido temporarily lessened.
> 
> Was wondering also, what is the average endo test production in mg per week for someone of my age? And will that production continue on HCG?
> 
> Cheers


Started too early as you didnt let the gear clear.

I would use longer esters, jab once a week and be done with it, less scar tissue and less spiking and declining of test levels.

500iu twice a week would be fine with HCG, if you want to do less that is fine.

Average test production for a guy your age would be around 7mg a day, or 49mg a week, some more, some less.


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## hooman

Hi

i'm running this cycle for 12 weeks:

75mg Tren EOD

100mg Test Prop EOD

week 9, no symptoms of Gyno or low sex drive.

what do you recommend for PCT??


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## IronJohnDoe

@hackskii mate I hope you are good, I got another question for you as I never been big on HCG and as I read here and in other forums there is many different ways to use HCG, I'm not a fan of the usage on cycle at 500iu as my testes don't really shrink much

So I'm currently on a 24 weeks cycle with test cyp 250mg tren-e 450mg (tren from week 11 untill week 20) also taking nolva 20mg ED caber 0.5mg E3D Proviron 50mg ED and accutane 20mg EOD

I normally recover quite well only with nolva 20mg ed clomid 100mg for the first week then 50mg of clomid for the remaining 3-4 weeks and nolva steady at 20mg for 6 weeks in pct (I always take nolva 20mg on cycle so levels are already steady when enter in pct)

I was thinking to implement HCG but I'm not sure how is best to proceed with it.

So here is my dilemma would it be better to do:

HCG 1500iu after the last test injection eod for 3 weeks with nolva 20mg ed then 3 days later last hcg jump in pct with nolva 20mg for 6 weeks and clomid for 4 weeks first 2 weeks at 100mg then 50mg ED

or:

3 weeks after last test cyp shot

HCG 1500iu EoD nolva 20mg ED clomid 100mg ED for 3 weeks then only nolva & clomid to the end of pct

which one would you suggest and why?

Thank you so much in advance!


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## hackskii

Why guys refuse to run hCG during is beyond me, then using compromised methods to achieve success.

Run the hCG every 3 days.


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## IronJohnDoe

hackskii said:


> PCT Protocol(s):
> 
> 1.) 1,000 IUs HCG 3x/wk (mon/wed/fri) in combination with 20 mgs Nolvadex ED for the first 3 weeks. After, discontinue HCG and continue with 20 mgs Nolvadex ED for an additional 3 weeks.
> 
> 2.) 1,000 IUs HCG 3x/wk (mon/wed/fri) in combination with 20 mgs Nolvadex ED and 50 mgs Clomid ED for the first 3 weeks. After, discontinue HCG and continue with 20 mgs Nolvadex ED and 50 mgs Clomid ED for an additional 3 weeks.
> 
> 3.) 1,500 IUs HCG 3x/wk (mon/wed/fri) in combination with 20 mgs Nolvadex ED for the first 3 weeks. After, discontinue HCG and continue 20 mgs Nolvadex ED for an additional 3 weeks.
> 
> 4.) 1,500 IUs HCG 3x/wk (mon/wed/fri) in combination with 100 mgs Clomid ED and 20 mgs Nolvadex ED for the first 3 weeks. After, discontinue HCG and continue with 50 mgs Clomid ED and 20 mgs Nolvadex ED for an additional 3 weeks.
> 
> Option one can be considered as a standard PCT protocol. This should apply to all basic cycles. Option 2 is generally the same as option one except for the addition of Clomid which is added as a supporting recovery aid. Option three and four incorporate a higher HCG dosage and have a relationship similar to options one and two in the sense that Clomid is incorporated in the latter as a supporting recovery aid.
> 
> *The majority of my experience is with intermediate to advanced athletes whom have completed multiple cycles with higher dosages. Therefore, based upon previous blood work results and considering the common or convenient preparations available, we have established that 1,500 IUs 3x/wk (mon/wed/fri) to be the optimal HCG dosage to begin with. The Nolvadex dosage remains unchanged however Clomid is utilized throughout the entire PCT at 100 mgs ED during the first 3 weeks and 50 mgs ED for the last 3 weeks.


I'm quoting you mate, I'm aware that is it possible using it on cycle but which protocol would be better for someone that did not used it on cycle then?


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## IronJohnDoe

4.) 1,500 IUs HCG 3x/wk (mon/wed/fri) in combination with 100 mgs Clomid ED and 20 mgs Nolvadex ED for the first 3 weeks. After, discontinue HCG and continue with 50 mgs Clomid ED and 20 mgs Nolvadex ED for an additional 3 weeks.

I was thinking about this one after 3 weeks to clear the ester


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## hackskii

I am thinking you did not use it during, now want to find the best course of action?

Those are old posts, but your condition would depend on what your cycle was, how much you used, how long you were on.


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## IronJohnDoe

hackskii said:


> I am thinking you did not use it during, now want to find the best course of action?
> 
> Those are old posts, but your condition would depend on what your cycle was, how much you used, how long you were on.


I'm still on, got still plenty of time to decide best course of action I'm only considering future options, was just asking for advice but no worries


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## hackskii

IronJohnDoe said:


> I'm still on, got still plenty of time to decide best course of action I'm only considering future options, was just asking for advice but no worries


You want advice?

Add hCG now.


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## McGuire86

@hackskii

How is this PCT and HCG looking for this cycle ?

Week 1-18 Test 400 - 800mg

Week 1-14 Deca 400 - 400mg

Week 3-21 HCG 1000 iu

Adex 0.25 eod then raise to 0.5 eod half way through

PCT - 3rd week after final jab

Clomid - 100/100/50/50

Nolva - 20/20/20/20

Will also add tribulus and increase my daily dosage of Vitamin D


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## hackskii

Its ok, just 800mg won't clear in 3 weeks time, run the hCG till the gear clears about at 4 weeks.

I don't rate trib at all, what so ever.

Keep the AI in to the start of your PCT.

Vitamin D should always be 5000iu or so per day.

25mg zinc is good.


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## IronJohnDoe

hackskii said:


> You want advice?
> 
> Add hCG now.


I don't want keeping bothering but I have to ask, why you are keeping shooting on taking HCG *only* while on cycle but then you quoting studies that gives plenty of examples of HCG used pre post or even post cycle?

I read plenty of articles over the internet quoting similar studies of hcg taken nor only when on cycle but also options post cycle, I am only trying to understand it better as you are saying take it while on cycle or nothing I get what you are saying I'm only asking why then you are against taking it post cycle or pre post cycle?


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## hackskii

IronJohnDoe said:


> I don't want keeping bothering but I have to ask, why you are keeping shooting on taking HCG *only* while on cycle but then you quoting studies that gives plenty of examples of HCG used pre post or even post cycle?
> 
> I read plenty of articles over the internet quoting similar studies of hcg taken nor only when on cycle but also options post cycle, I am only trying to understand it better as you are saying take it while on cycle or nothing I get what you are saying I'm only asking why then you are against taking it post cycle or pre post cycle?


Because, this is just simple math, keeping testicular function uses less hCG while on cycle, than using it once the nuts are atrophied.

I don't care who tells you otherwise including Rich Pina, using hCG is the preferred protocol to avoid testicular atrophy, it is suggest that leydig cells not being stimulated may result in less function of leydig cells.

If you do not use it during, you will have to use it later.

Another reason, and I will give understanding along with my opinion, which most will not give their logic, but post cycle when HPTA is hammered, using hCG for a month to restore testicular function then needs the use of SERM's.

This window of testicular recovery is a month when if kept would not need to be done.

so, recovery in essence is about a month longer your way, and while on hCG at the doses to restore testicular function hammer LH, which by the way needs to move up, not down after a cycle.

So, are you now sold on using during, or after?


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## IronJohnDoe

hackskii said:


> Because, this is just simple math, keeping testicular function uses less hCG while on cycle, than using it once the nuts are atrophied.
> 
> I don't care who tells you otherwise including Rich Pina, using hCG is the preferred protocol to avoid testicular atrophy, it is suggest that leydig cells not being stimulated may result in less function of leydig cells.
> 
> If you do not use it during, you will have to use it later.
> 
> Another reason, and I will give understanding along with my opinion, which most will not give their logic, but post cycle when HPTA is hammered, using hCG for a month to restore testicular function then needs the use of SERM's.
> 
> This window of testicular recovery is a month when if kept would not need to be done.
> 
> so, recovery in essence is about a month longer your way, and while on hCG at the doses to restore testicular function hammer LH, which by the way needs to move up, not down after a cycle.
> 
> So, are you now sold on using during, or after?


Definitely during, I really appreciate the advice, don't get me wrong I was not trying to be smug or anything I just knew that you are a living encyclopaedia about it and so I wanted ear that bit of knowledge from you.

So if used on cycle the only protocol is 500iu eod or something like 1500iu with less frequent injection even possible? I am asking this because I may have some problems storing the remains in the freezer and the smallest amount that I can find with my source is 1500 to mix


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## hackskii

Most will give an opinion as they heard it before, that is not information, that is only an opinion, and when guys say well this guy does it that way, then enter that into debate makes for a very weak argument.

hCG during is 500iu twice a week, even in clearance time of the gear, then only SERM's after.

Recovery about a month.

If not then 2000iu every 3 days, using nolva only at 20mg per day while on the hCG and that is 10 shots, so a month, then SERM's.

Recovery about 2 months.


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## IronJohnDoe

hackskii said:


> Most will give an opinion as they heard it before, that is not information, that is only an opinion, and when guys say well this guy does it that way, then enter that into debate makes for a very weak argument.
> 
> hCG during is 500iu twice a week, even in clearance time of the gear, then only SERM's after.
> 
> Recovery about a month.
> 
> If not then 2000iu every 3 days, using nolva only at 20mg per day while on the hCG and that is 10 shots, so a month, then SERM's.
> 
> Recovery about 2 months.


Now I see it, with the second protocol it takes twice the time to recover.

I will then look to find a way to store the unused one will get some bac water as I read that it's better than the solvent that you get in the box.

Thank you so much mate, as always you are the person to ask.


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## IronJohnDoe

One more question @hackskii, so when using HCG on cycle shall I start that from week 1 of my cycle right to the end before pct?

I'm asking this because I'm reading everywhere about people saying to take it 5 weeks on 1 week off then repeat or also 4 weeks on 4 weeks off then repeat and it's quite confusing.


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## hackskii

IronJohnDoe said:


> One more question @hackskii, so when using HCG on cycle shall I start that from week 1 of my cycle right to the end before pct?
> 
> I'm asking this because I'm reading everywhere about people saying to take it 5 weeks on 1 week off then repeat or also 4 weeks on 4 weeks off then repeat and it's quite confusing.


Sure it is confusing listening to people that have no idea what they are talking about.

Why take a break and not allow for stimulation?

Desensitization?

Listen to people that know what they are talking about.


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## DaveW3000

IronJohnDoe said:


> One more question @hackskii, so when using HCG on cycle shall I start that from week 1 of my cycle right to the end before pct?


The general opinion across the threads that I asked on was to start hcg on the second week (assuming a medium to long ester) but start it straight away with the short ester's.


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## DaveW3000

IronJohnDoe said:


> One more question @hackskii, so when using HCG on cycle shall I start that from week 1 of my cycle right to the end before pct?


The general opinion across the threads that I asked on was to start hcg on the second week (assuming a medium to long ester) but start it straight away with the short ester's.


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## IronJohnDoe

hackskii said:


> Sure it is confusing listening to people that have no idea what they are talking about.
> 
> Why take a break and not allow for stimulation?
> 
> Desensitization?
> 
> Listen to people that know what they are talking about.


You are right (as usual)

I found a study where they was experimenting with dosages up to 10000iu per injection and even after long periods they could not proof completely desensitization

Now I got my mind clear on the whole subject.

Thanks again hackskii I already ordered some hcg and surely I won't start future cycles without it.

Now I got a lot of interesting reads to start on the subject.


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## IronJohnDoe

DaveW3000 said:


> The general opinion across the threads that I asked on was to start hcg on the second week (assuming a medium to long ester) but start it straight away with the short ester's.


From second week, it make sense, I only use long ester anyway


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## hackskii

With orals, the day you take the tabs, LH will cease as long as the life of the tabs are still in your system.

Just even a couple of days with enanthate LH will slow or stop.


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## Sam0785

Hackskii is it possible to pick your brain sometime for some advise?

Regards

S.


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## hackskii

Sam0785 said:


> Hackskii is it possible to pick your brain sometime for some advise?
> 
> Regards
> 
> S.


Sure


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## Sam0785

hackskii said:


> Sure


Is it possible to pm you? I have made a post I would love to hear your advise on my current situation. I totally understand your a busy man on here.

S.


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## McGuire86

hackskii said:


> Its ok, just 800mg won't clear in 3 weeks time, run the hCG till the gear clears about at 4 weeks.
> 
> I don't rate trib at all, what so ever.
> 
> Keep the AI in to the start of your PCT.
> 
> Vitamin D should always be 5000iu or so per day.
> 
> 25mg zinc is good.


Thanks, so to clarify start PCT 4 weeks after last jab, not 3 ? And take my final HCG jab the day I start PCT or take it a week into it as I'll have one shot of 1000iu left over if it makes a difference.

Cheers!


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## hackskii

McGuire86 said:


> Thanks, so to clarify start PCT 4 weeks after last jab, not 3 ? And take my final HCG jab the day I start PCT or take it a week into it as I'll have one shot of 1000iu left over if it makes a difference.
> 
> Cheers!


What amount of gear, and at what ester are we talking about here?


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## McGuire86

hackskii said:


> What amount of gear, and at what ester are we talking about here?


Week 1-18 Test 400 - 800mg

Week 1-14 Deca 400 - 400mg

Week 3-21 HCG 1000 iu

Adex 0.25 eod then raise to 0.5 eod half way through

PCT - 3rd week after final jab

Clomid - 100/100/50/50

Nolva - 20/20/20/20


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## hackskii

Yah, that will probably be fine. What is the esters in the T 400?

You might need to start week 4, depending on the mg of the long ester in there.


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## McGuire86

hackskii said:


> Yah, that will probably be fine. What is the esters in the T 400?
> 
> You might need to start week 4, depending on the mg of the long ester in there.


Test 400 - Test e 150mg, Test c 150mg, Test d 100mg

Deca 400 - DEC 300mg, NPP 100mg


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## hackskii

McGuire86 said:


> Test 400 - Test e 150mg, Test c 150mg, Test d 100mg
> 
> Deca 400 - DEC 300mg, NPP 100mg


3 to 4 weeks, you should be able to feel the T returning back to where you were, I gauge it by if I can still feel it, gear affects my voice, and libido, I can generally tell by my red face too, oily skin, etc.


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## McGuire86

hackskii said:


> 3 to 4 weeks, you should be able to feel the T returning back to where you were, I gauge it by if I can still feel it, gear affects my voice, and libido, I can generally tell by my red face too, oily skin, etc.


Ok I'll go for the initial 3 weeks, see how I am. Shall I continue HCG during the PCT as I'll have one or two shots left over.. And shall I countinue AI during PCT or just until ?


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## hackskii

McGuire86 said:


> Ok I'll go for the initial 3 weeks, see how I am. Shall I continue HCG during the PCT as I'll have one or two shots left over.. And shall I countinue AI during PCT or just until ?


If you used during, no need while on SERM's as the SERM won't work while hCG is doing its job.

Estrogen probably won't be an issue, won't really need it.


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## McGuire86

hackskii said:


> If you used during, no need while on SERM's as the SERM won't work while hCG is doing its job.
> 
> Estrogen probably won't be an issue, won't really need it.


Ok then, I'll just run HCG and the AI to the start of PCT then stop, thanks appreciate your help.


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## caneser

@hackskii

I was looking for a good site to have a membership and i had confused about HCG. After your posts i decided to join here. You are a living encyclopedia as people mentioned. I have read all your posts, I will start a new cycle and i want to keep my mind clear so could you check if my cycle plan is OK?

Week 1-10 Sustanon 250mg X e4d ----TOTAL:18pin 4500mg

Week 2-10 Tren-A 75mg X eod ----TOTAL:30pin 2250mg

Week 2-13 HCG 250iu X e3d ----TOTAL:30pin 7500mg

Week 1-13 Adex 0.5mg X eod

Week 2-10 Caber 0.5mg X e3d

Week 13-16 PCT

Clomid - 100/50/50

Nolva - 40/20/20

Also I have milk thistle, vit-d, vit-c, vit-b complex, omega-3, zinc and magnesium for MCT

Any sugestion will be appreciate... Regards


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