# Uncontrolled binges on a cut



## 0161M (Nov 17, 2015)

We have all done it

I feel like mine today was triggered by going on a hour long swim last night before i went to bed

I have eaten an additional 1700 calories today, i couldnt control myself. Very weak

Now im disappointed in myself

To balance this out and keep me in a nice deficit im planning on fasting all tomorrow as in my mind, and im pretty sure its fact, it will cancel out the binge

How do you handle binges during a cut ?

Im aware people say forget about it but i feel thats the easy thing to do, but not the right thing. The right thing is surely to fast and balance things out and continue progressing rather than just accepting youre now a few steps backward


----------



## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

I'd at the very least eat protein rather than fasting but would do something less extreme personally.

Are you cutting to compete?


----------



## JohhnyC (Mar 16, 2015)

Happens to me too mate.

If hunger starts to build have a light snack just to tie you over, enough to just take the hunger away. E.g toast and peanut butter.

When having your meals initially make something small, see how it goes and if still hungry have a bit more.

Basically eating enough to dampen the hunger. I find this way you end up eating more frequently actually but total calories per day is less. Works for me away. If I let hunger build I'll binge and usual that will involved high calorie food.

Oh and when snacking like that a diet Coke helps enormously.


----------



## 66983 (May 30, 2016)

It's a complete head [email protected]@k mate,

I find the worst thing you can do is have something sweet or carbs, then it can just spiral out of control.

Cereal is the worst, coco pops or something like that.

One thing to do is make sure you don't have stuff in the house you can binge on, on your cheat meal day go out and have your food elsewhere.

Also remove trigger points, for instance, my trigger point is as soon as I get in from work I get an overwhelming urge for carbs because subliminally my body knows there is stuff in the house, at this point I'll either have some sort of protein, a diet coke or just go and train.

Another thing you can do is find a photo of yourself (you hate, maybe when you were fatter) and put it on the fridge with a note saying something like 'stick to the plan'.

However it's not all bad news, A good refeed will raise your leptin levels and start the weight loss process again, you will gain a little overnight water weight but this will go again in a couple of days.

To put any sort of fat on you would have to consume at least 3500 calories and probably more like 5000 because of the thermic effect of food.

This is why carb cycling for me is the best approach to continual weight loss and getting to v low bf levels.


----------



## DLTBB (Jan 26, 2015)

I think a lot of it has to do with being really restrictive and almost 'over dieting' when you're in a deficit. It wears you down mentally and as soon as you give in slightly you'll trigger a massive binge, it'll mess up half a week or even a week worth of dieting and then you'll go even stricter for a few days to rectify yourself. And then the cycle repeats.

I think the trick for people like that is using a smaller deficit and cutting at a slower rate and also trying to do some kind of flexible dieting where you're still eating a couple of bits that you enjoy each day, should make things a lot easier for you mentally. Progress might look slower on paper but if you're avoiding massive binges at least you'll be making slow, steady progress consistently rather than massive zig zags.

Rich touches on the mental aspect of it here.


----------



## 0161M (Nov 17, 2015)

Ultrasonic said:


> I'd at the very least eat protein rather than fasting but would do something less extreme personally.
> 
> Are you cutting to compete?


 Im not cutting to compete, just to get my desired physique


----------



## 0161M (Nov 17, 2015)

Sparkey said:


> It's a complete head [email protected]@k mate,
> 
> I find the worst thing you can do is have something sweet or carbs, then it can just spiral out of control.
> 
> ...


 Yeah thats a good idea about triggers, but i was just binging on nonsense, i wasnt even craving it

I had a huge bowl of oats with chocolate powder in, a big bowl of raisen bran ffs, such stupid s**t to blow my calories with. I just had insatiable hunger though i couldnt stop. I think boredom played a part too, i was hanging around waiting for my class to start at half 7, so i was just sat there doing nothing letting hunger build

I probably havent put on any actual fat youre right, but i have certainly set myself back three days of cutting. So im going to fast today so im back on track if not slightly ahead. It makes sense to me

I may try carb cycling. Are you also calorie cycling there or are you replacing the carbs with other macros on your low days ?


----------



## 0161M (Nov 17, 2015)

DLTBB said:


> I think a lot of it has to do with being really restrictive and almost 'over dieting' when you're in a deficit. It wears you down mentally and as soon as you give in slightly you'll trigger a massive binge, it'll mess up half a week or even a week worth of dieting and then you'll go even stricter for a few days to rectify yourself. And then the cycle repeats.
> 
> I think the trick for people like that is using a smaller deficit and cutting at a slower rate and also trying to do some kind of flexible dieting where you're still eating a couple of bits that you enjoy each day, should make things a lot easier for you mentally. Progress might look slower on paper but if you're avoiding massive binges at least you'll be making slow, steady progress consistently rather than massive zig zags.
> 
> Rich touches on the mental aspect of it here.


 That defo rings true about giving in slightly and then just going HAM on the food

What do you do then, if you binge while cutting

Will you also fast the following day to make things balance out ?


----------



## 66983 (May 30, 2016)

0161M said:


> Yeah thats a good idea about triggers, but i was just binging on nonsense, i wasnt even craving it
> 
> I had a huge bowl of oats with chocolate powder in, a big bowl of raisen bran ffs, such stupid s**t to blow my calories with. I just had insatiable hunger though i couldnt stop. I think boredom played a part too, i was hanging around waiting for my class to start at half 7, so i was just sat there doing nothing letting hunger build
> 
> ...


 Currently 179lbs

Low Carb Day: 1763 calories, 33g Carbs, 284g protein, 55g fat

Moderate Carbs Day: 1982.5 calories, 111g carbs, 262g protein, 54.5g fat.

High Carb Day: 2247.5 calories, 324g carbs, 184.5g protein, 23.5g fat.


----------



## JohhnyC (Mar 16, 2015)

Everyone has to find their own way I think. I need my weekly cheat meal or mentally it f**ks things up.

Every Tuesday there is a buy one get one free only local pizza place. I order the deluxe range, garlic bread etc have a few beers and watch a movie

Oddly enough I don't over consume cals that day by a lot as during the day my breakfast and lunch is pretty small. I'd say I consume about 800 to 1000 until I order the pizza. Yeah I'm hungry all day but it doesn't bother me at all.

(How my missus can eat one slice and basically leave the rest sitting there all evening drives me nuts lol)

Whatever method you can manage to encourage yourself is the best.


----------



## DLTBB (Jan 26, 2015)

0161M said:


> That defo rings true about giving in slightly and then just going HAM on the food
> 
> What do you do then, if you binge while cutting
> 
> Will you also fast the following day to make things balance out ?


 I used to end up getting leaner anyway even with binges, not nearly as fast as I could have but I did make progress. I find it easier sticking to a keto diet, I put so much effort in to avoiding carbs and getting in to ketosis that I don't want to ruin it and binge. Might be worth looking at.


----------



## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

0161M said:


> Im not cutting to compete, just to get my desired physique


 I asked because in that case I really wouldn't be doing anything too different than planned today at all. Personally I'd do something like have just whey and coffee on the morning but then go back to the plan.

From a psychological point of view planned refeeds or even longer diet breaks are a lot better than trying to stick to low calories for weeks on end. I've just started a cut and I'm experimenting with lower calories in weekdays but approximately maintenance at weekends, with most of the extra calories from carbs (to have more of an effect on leptin). It's early day to comment on the effectiveness but there is some evidence to support the idea of two-day regrets likely being more beneficial than one.

I also use a flexible dieting approach but it doesn't suit everyone - it depends if you're the sort of person that can have a small amount of something without it leading to a binge, and you may well not be. I'll be having 2000 kcal today but 800 of those will be a pizza for dinner.


----------



## Sphinkter (Apr 10, 2015)

Wouldn't sweat it mate refeeds are a useful addition to a cut anyway, whether or not there's anything in the leptin/metabolism thing which I expect not from a typical cutting diet/refeed, the mental aspect helps and I train better on a refeed.

it seems like you mostly overfed on carbs so you've probably just replenished your glycogen stores with minimal actual fat gain. Just go back to normal tomorrow wouldn't bother fasting or anything.


----------



## Sphinkter (Apr 10, 2015)

Ultrasonic said:


> I asked because in that case I really wouldn't be doing anything too different than planned today at all. Personally I'd do something like have just whey and coffee on the morning but then go back to the plan.
> 
> From a psychological point of view planned refeeds or even longer diet breaks are a lot better than trying to stick to low calories for weeks on end. I've just started a cut and I'm experimenting with lower calories in weekdays but approximately maintenance at weekends, with most of the extra calories from carbs (to have more of an effect on leptin). It's early day to comment on the effectiveness but there is some evidence to support the idea of two-day regrets likely being more beneficial than one.
> 
> I also use a flexible dieting approach but it doesn't suit everyone - it depends if you're the sort of person that can have a small amount of something without it leading to a binge, and you may well not be. I'll be having 2000 kcal today but 800 of those will be a pizza for dinner.


 Are you doing a kind of watered down UD2?


----------



## DLTBB (Jan 26, 2015)

Oh and BTW, 1,700 calories over is no big deal...I used to go like 3,500+ over. Basically ate until I felt sick.


----------



## Jenga (Apr 16, 2017)

DLTBB said:


> I used to end up getting leaner anyway even with binges, not nearly as fast as I could have but I did make progress. I find it easier sticking to a keto diet, I put so much effort in to avoiding carbs and getting in to ketosis that I don't want to ruin it and binge. Might be worth looking at.


 I agree about keto. I'm about 4 weeks into palumbo style keto diet once the initial 2 weeks are out of the way my carb cravings just disappear. Even with my allowed refeed I end up feeling guilty about consuming carbs it's crazy and I have a serious sweet tooth lol.


----------



## JohhnyC (Mar 16, 2015)

Jenga said:


> I agree about keto. I'm about 4 weeks into palumbo style keto diet once the initial 2 weeks are out of the way my carb cravings just disappear. Even with my allowed refeed I end up feeling guilty about consuming carbs it's crazy and I have a serious sweet tooth lol.


 Always curious about you guys that can stick to keto diets.

Do you find if you eat carbs the flood gates open?

I have the opposite results. Eat fat and protein and the calories become huge. It just doesn't fill me and I find non fatty meat dull.


----------



## AestheticManlet (Jun 12, 2012)

I have odd binges can be as much as 3k over in a day it's never stopped cutting progress though. I still consistently lose weight and feel better with the odd binge when dieting. I do have a freaky metabolism for losing fat though.


----------



## Jenga (Apr 16, 2017)

JohhnyC said:


> Always curious about you guys that can stick to keto diets.
> 
> Do you find if you eat carbs the flood gates open?
> 
> I have the opposite results. Eat fat and protein and the calories become huge. It just doesn't fill me and I find non fatty meat dull.


 I'm eating about 2200 (in a deficit) calories from protein and fat at the minute and I don't get that hungry to be honest. I keep track of calories on my Fitbit app.

5 Omega 3 eggs in the morning

turkey/chicken breast salad with olive oil and feta cheese afternoon

2 x whey isolate shakes with almond butter (around workout)

red meat or salmon with asparagus pm

5 omega eggs pre bed.

when it comes to refeed time I have it on Sunday evening after 5pm, that way I can jump straight into routine back on my diet Monday morning. Couple of bowls of cereal, tea and biscuits, carb heavy meal with a dessert. After I've eaten that I can't wait to get back on 0 carbs lol it's strange the way it makes your body feel towards carbs lol.


----------



## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Sphinkter said:


> Are you doing a kind of watered down UD2?


 Not really. I'm not going remotely low carb at any point which UD2 does, along with glycogen depletion training IIRC.

My logic was based purely on refeed related thinking. Plus doing my main leg training at the weekend.


----------



## JohhnyC (Mar 16, 2015)

Jenga said:


> I'm eating about 2200 (in a deficit) calories from protein and fat at the minute and I don't get that hungry to be honest. I keep track of calories on my Fitbit app.
> 
> 5 Omega 3 eggs in the morning
> 
> ...


 Cheers mate,

Maybe I'll assess my diet. But I do love my carbs! :cool2:


----------



## Mayzini (May 18, 2016)

always find a binge, makes me refocus and push on, so providing you control the binges and restrict the calories then you end up not damaging things too much.

I also nouse flexible dieting and carb loading so that Igenerally feel like I am hardly dieting when I have over 100grams of carbs to eat in my evening meal if needs be.

I find when I binge its my protein intake that suffers unless I binge in Nando's!! lol


----------



## 66983 (May 30, 2016)

If you decide to have a go at carb cycling, structure your high days to suit you.

For instance I usually take the wife out either Friday evening or Saturday so I structure my medium and high carb days around this.

E.g.

Sunday: Low Carbs
Monday: Low Carbs
Tuesday: Moderate Carbs
Wednesday: High Carbs
Thursday: Low Carbs 
Friday: Moderate Carbs
Saturday: High Carbs

Saturday and Sunday could be swapped for each other.


----------



## Sphinkter (Apr 10, 2015)

Ultrasonic said:


> Not really. I'm not going remotely low carb at any point which UD2 does, along with glycogen depletion training IIRC.
> 
> My logic was based purely on refeed related thinking. Plus doing my main leg training at the weekend.


 That's what I was getting at, how you're refeeding over the whole weekend rather than just one day a week. Obviously UD2 is pretty extreme and restrictive with the super low carbs and depletion workouts followed by insanely high carbs into moderately high over the weekend.


----------



## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

You aren't alone in doing this, it's a very common issue.

If you were cutting to try to make a specific body weight/body fat percentage by a specific date then the ideal short term response would be to make up for the excess either through a combination of temporary extra food restriction and extra exercise or just extra food restriction. The longer term response though would be to address any triggers that are leading to the frequent binges and redress them. Otherwise it's your choice how to handle it, but of course if it is happening every few days or so then it does need to be properly looked at

Binge triggers are individual but generally it's usually one or more of these things behind them:



Lack of sleep. Lack of sleep is a triple whammy on a cut because it simultaneously slows metabolic rate for the next day, decreases insulin sensitivity the following day, and increases expression of hunger hormones. Bad sleep one night can often lead to binge eating the following evening.


Psychological and emotional stress. This triggers binging when not in calorie deficit too, but since a calorie deficit generally causes a chronic drop in mood regulating neurotransmitters, the subconscious drive to seek dopamine and serotonin elevating and opioid recepto activating nutrients from food increases more considerably.


Diet is too restrictive or too bland. The restriction of all junky and/or highly palatable foods can often lead to binging. Initially there's often a period of short term psychological and habitual withdrawal that can really tempt binging. Then, after getting used to not eating such foods there's often a period of honeymoon with it where suddenly you don't miss them and you feel great. But it rarely lasts, and so often at some point a few weeks or months down the road such restriction leads to a massive cave in.


The inclusion of specific foods that you struggle to regulate consumption of. The specific foods differ between individuals, and some of us have way more trigger foods than others - especially when combined with stress conditions as above. While generally I think it's best not to be too restrictive for most people, if there are specific foods that you really struggle not to binge on at the best of times and after just a little taste then it's usually prudent to cut them altogether.


Your meal timing and/or frequency needs adjusting. While the timing and number of meals each day won't do anything to change the rate of fat loss, it may have a significant impact on how easy it is to stick to your calorie deficit consistently. When cutting and experiencing lots of episodes of hunger or temptations to binge it's often a really good idea to experiment and see if eating at different times of the day, at different times relative to your periods of exercise, and/or if changing the number of meals you have and amount of food in each will make a difference. The formula for success here isn't going to be the same for everyone, but most people will have a best formula for appetite control based on all their individual factors.


Your macros are way off. Increasing protein and dietary fiber will almost invariably reduce appetite to some degree when on a cut. The effects of carbs and fats in general on appetite vary too much between individuals for there to be a catch all formula, but if your protein is already fairly high and your appetite isn't playing nice then it may well be time to try a 10-20% switch between carbs and fats in either direction.


Too much exercise. Utilizing the calorie burning effect of exercise can be a great tool during a cut to allow you to eat a little more with a slightly smaller energy intake reduction and still lose fat. However, although it varies between individuals, exercise often stimulates episodes of hunger and, when already in a deficit and running on low liver glycogen, exercise induced hunger pangs can be pretty intense and lead to a big temptation to eat something nice and carby and energy dense. In this case it might actually make you less hungry if you reduce calories a little more but cut some of the extra exercise you are doing.


Not enough exercise and calories too low. Where I said in the point above that the response varies between individuals, for some people extra exercise and eating more food may well be exactly what is needed to avoid hunger pangs. The hormones that regulate appetite in response to exercise and calorie restriction really do vary a lot between all of us, and so near opposite approaches in how you create your energy deficit through the balance of food restriction and activity levels can be appropriate for different individuals.


Habitual triggers. If you are used to eating in certain specific social situations, or have a long standing daily ritual when not cutting of sitting down in the evening to a treat, this kind of thing can be hard to just stop doing. It may trigger hunger pangs at the same time each day when the feed is missing or it might be more subtle and you may find yourself vigilant through the time you are expecting to have to deal with it but for the hunger to resurface some other time when you let your guard down.


There are certainly more triggers too, but the above is a list of things is a good range of factors to think about if hunger pangs and binges are regular problems when cutting.


----------



## Owl man (Apr 18, 2016)

dtlv said:


> You aren't alone in doing this, it's a very common issue.
> 
> If you were cutting to try to make a specific body weight/body fat percentage by a specific date then the ideal short term response would be to make up for the excess either through a combination of temporary extra food restriction and extra exercise or just extra food restriction. The longer term response though would be to address any triggers that are leading to the frequent binges and redress them. Otherwise it's your choice how to handle it, but of course if it is happening every few days or so then it does need to be properly looked at
> 
> ...


 Amazing post thanks


----------



## Etoboss (Dec 1, 2015)

This is me all over.

I have been dieting all week hard with cardio and binging on weekends for about a year now.

Some great info in this thread may try a few new things like carb cycling aiming for all high carbs at weekend.

1 thing I noticed though what confuses me is after my weekend binge so Monday morning I feel leaner than I did on the Friday before the binge. Then mid-end of week I feel fat again even though dieted hard with loads of cardio.

Not sure why? Leptin?

my weekend binge I don't go all out like on a sat if having a Nando's I would have just that 1 meal all day. But with the odd sweet snacks before and after.

Sonetimes if it's a pizza same with that just that meal that day with bits before and after


----------



## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

> 1 thing I noticed though what confuses me is after my weekend binge so Monday morning I feel leaner than I did on the Friday before the binge. Then mid-end of week I feel fat again even though dieted hard with loads of cardio.
> 
> Not sure why? Leptin?


 Not leptin but possibly glycogen/water, particularly if you do a low carb diet during the week?


----------



## Etoboss (Dec 1, 2015)

Ultrasonic said:


> Not leptin but possibly glycogen/water, particularly if you do a low carb diet during the week?


 Wouldn't say low mate no about 150-170g max carbs?

May just be in my head? But even this morning after a big cheat last night feel like I lost 5lbs over night lol abs seem more visible


----------



## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Etoboss said:


> Wouldn't say low mate no about 150-170g max carbs?
> 
> May just be in my head? But even this morning after a big cheat last night feel like I lost 5lbs over night lol abs seem more visible


 It could be cortisol - you may chill out over the weekend so cortisol drops and you retain less water. Or it could be in your head.

Eating a bit more during the week and less over the weekend might be better if there truly is a cortisol effect FWIW.

(I eat more at weekends but it's all tracked and I stick to an approximately maintenance calorie target. Not saying you need to do this but just explaining the difference.)


----------



## Etoboss (Dec 1, 2015)

Ultrasonic said:


> It could be cortisol - you may chill out over the weekend so cortisol drops and you retain less water. Or it could be in your head.
> 
> Eating a bit more during the week and less over the weekend might be better if there truly is a cortisol effect FWIW.
> 
> (I eat more at weekends but it's all tracked and I stick to an approximately maintenance calorie target. Not saying you need to do this but just explaining the difference.)


 Thanks mate. I do need to control my food at weekend. It's why I keep going back and forth with my weight. I do feel since have been eating at maintenance through the week that I don't seem that bothered about going mad on weekend.

But I been eating this way for a long time now maybe by body needs to do something different like hence trying carb cycling see how I respond.


----------



## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Etoboss said:


> Thanks mate. I do need to control my food at weekend. It's why I keep going back and forth with my weight. I do feel since have been eating at maintenance through the week that I don't seem that bothered about going mad on weekend.
> 
> But I been eating this way for a long time now maybe by body needs to do something different like hence trying carb cycling see how I respond.


 I'm guessing you didn't mean to say you are 'eating at maintenance' during the week there, right?


----------



## Etoboss (Dec 1, 2015)

Ultrasonic said:


> I'm guessing you didn't mean to say you are 'eating at maintenance' during the week there, right?


 Only as of the past week mate but doing 300kcal per day on running machine as well


----------



## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Etoboss said:


> Only as of the past week mate but doing 300kcal per day on running machine as well


 I would describe that as 300 kcal below maintenance but I appreciate not everyone uses the term in the same way.


----------



## Etoboss (Dec 1, 2015)

Ultrasonic said:


> I would describe that as 300 kcal below maintenance but I appreciate not everyone uses the term in the same way.


 What it is with me mate is if I eat 300kcal below maintenance instead of doing cardio I feel guilty that haven't done cardio lol


----------



## JohhnyC (Mar 16, 2015)

Etoboss said:


> What it is with me mate is if I eat 300kcal below maintenance instead of doing cardio I feel guilty that haven't done cardio lol


 Doing cardio is directly comparable with just eating less.

Cardio comes with a whole host of benefits which out weigh weightraining in every way, (in terms of general health and well being)

In terms of fat loss, cardio provids secondary benefits. You get an accelerated effect over the long run by nutrient efficiency, increased metabolism, more efficient fat burning.

Can't be ignored :thumbup1:


----------



## Etoboss (Dec 1, 2015)

JohhnyC said:


> Doing cardio is directly comparable with just eating less.
> 
> Cardio comes with a whole host of benefits which out weigh weightraining in every way, (in terms of general health and well being)
> 
> ...


 So if I was to eat at maintenance for 6months and do 300kcal on cardio

and then do 6 months eating 300 below maintenance no cardio.

The cardio option will have more weight loss in the long run?

I do feel I can loose more if do cardio not sure if it's in my head though feel guilty when don't do cardio lol


----------



## JohhnyC (Mar 16, 2015)

Etoboss said:


> So if I was to eat at maintenance for 6months and do 300kcal on cardio
> 
> and then do 6 months eating 300 below maintenance no cardio.
> 
> ...


 Sorry I typed it incorrectly, I meant to write

"*Not* directly comparable" as doing cardio has a synergy effect on fat loss.

For example: assume day 1 you do cardio and burn 300 calories.

Do this everyday for 6 months and after 6 months you will find that your fat burning in general is more efficient.

So to answer you guess, yes, if you do extra cardio you will burn more fat even when resting, going about your daily routines as your body is more healthy and efficient


----------



## Etoboss (Dec 1, 2015)

JohhnyC said:


> Sorry I typed it incorrectly, I meant to write
> 
> "*Not* directly comparable" as doing cardio has a synergy effect on fat loss.
> 
> ...


 Cool!

Totally understand what u mean now mate thanks


----------



## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Not sure why you're aiming for such a small deficit. If you like cardio I'd do more like 300 kcal cardio plus eating 300 kcal less to give a 600 kcal deficit.

I agree cardio has health benefits but I'm not at all convinced about it being superior from a fat loss perspective. I generally favour eating less as you can be more sure of results. With cardio you never truly know how many extra calories you've used doing the activity, plus there is the variability in the extent it partly leads to people being less active later on (and therefore blunting the effect).

Ultimately experiment and see what works best for you. (I'm currently cutting doing zero extra cardio, just my usual 2 mile each way daily cycle to work.)


----------



## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

I should perhaps add one thing to what I said above, which is that I'm talking from the perspective of someone who is weight training.

Weight training has a positive nutrient partitioning effect in that it builds/preserves muscle, which will have a positive effect on fat loss. For someone who otherwise gets no exercise at all I can see there may be a similar effect from adding cardio, albeit a smaller one.


----------



## Etoboss (Dec 1, 2015)

Ultrasonic said:


> Not sure why you're aiming for such a small deficit. If you like cardio I'd do more like 300 kcal cardio plus eating 300 kcal less to give a 600 kcal deficit.
> 
> I agree cardio has health benefits but I'm not at all convinced about it being superior from a fat loss perspective. I generally favour eating less as you can be more sure of results. With cardio you never truly know how many extra calories you've used doing the activity, plus there is the variability in the extent it partly leads to people being less active later on (and therefore blunting the effect).
> 
> Ultimately experiment and see what works best for you. (I'm currently cutting doing zero extra cardio, just my usual 2 mile each way daily cycle to work.)


 Because I want to loose some fat at a slowish rate and in order to build some muscle would you say still go into a 600kcal deficit?

What i may do is for a few weeks eat at maintenance and do my weight training using more time! So my 30min cardio replace that with extra weight training. And see if I can still loose fat while gaining muscle


----------



## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Etoboss said:


> Because I want to loose some fat at a slowish rate and in order to build some muscle


 Your current smaller deficit makes more sense if you're trying to do that.


----------



## 0161M (Nov 17, 2015)

Binged again yesterday, added it all up as i went because i was already tracking my meals as usual

Once i went over my calories and got to 3200 i said in my head im not eating tomorrow (today) to make up for it so i may as well continue eating, dat der herp derp logic

Ended up at slightly over 5000 calories for the day roughly 5075

Mainly bowls of oats with syrup, chocolate bars, cheeseburgers etc

So yeah im not going to eat today, will probably be hard as im going to need to last at least 16 hours of awake time from now but if i do it that will mean i had two days at roughly maintenance (2500kcal) rather than a wild blow out so it seems like the right thing to do


----------



## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

0161M said:


> Binged again yesterday, added it all up as i went because i was already tracking my meals as usual
> 
> Once i went over my calories and got to 3200 i said in my head im not eating tomorrow (today) to make up for it so i may as well continue eating, dat der herp derp logic
> 
> ...


 As I expect I posted above, having at the very least protein today would be better than nothing at all.


----------



## 0161M (Nov 17, 2015)

Ultrasonic said:


> As I expect I posted above, having at the very least protein today would be better than nothing at all.


 Why would it ?

I had 250 grams yesterday and 600 carbs and over double my daily intake of calories

I doubt my muscle will be effected in the slightest by not ingesting anything today unless you can prove otherwise


----------



## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

0161M said:


> Why would it ?
> 
> I had 250 grams yesterday and 600 carbs and over double my daily intake of calories
> 
> I doubt my muscle will be effected in the slightest by not ingesting anything today unless you can prove otherwise


 The only 'store' your body has for protein is for muscle. If you don't eat protein all day you will lose more muscle today than you would if say you had 30g of protein for breakfast, lunch and dinner. We're not talking a huge amount obviously but it's a real effect.

Carbs and fat your body does store so that's not an issue at all.


----------



## 0161M (Nov 17, 2015)

Ultrasonic said:


> The only 'store' your body has for protein is for muscle. If you don't eat protein all day you will lose more muscle today than you would if say you had 30g of protein for breakfast, lunch and dinner. We're not talking a huge amount obviously but it's a real effect.
> 
> Carbs and fat you body does store so that's not an issue at all.


 Hmmm

I honestly believe after i have eaten double my calories the day previous it will be nigh on impossible for me to lose any muscle today.

As i said, unless you can prove otherwise


----------



## 0161M (Nov 17, 2015)

Also to add

I feel great today, my stomach doesnt feel the best but mentally i feel very happy and satisfied


----------



## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

0161M said:


> Hmmm
> 
> I honestly believe after i have eaten double my calories the day previous it will be nigh on impossible for me to lose any muscle today.
> 
> As i said, unless you can prove otherwise


 What I said is fact, but I'm not going to be able to find you a study to prove muscle loss in a single day - there's no way any testing would be sensitive enough to pick that up!

It's not a huge deal either way obviously.

You'd probably benefit from having a read back through this thread since this is now the second time this has happened.


----------



## 0161M (Nov 17, 2015)

Ultrasonic said:


> What I said is fact, but I'm not going to be able to find you a study to prove muscle loss in a single day - there's no way any testing would be sensitive enough to pick that up!
> 
> It's not a huge deal either way obviously.
> 
> You'd probably benefit from having a read back through this thread since this is now the second time this has happened.


 How is it fact i will lose more muscle then if you have no facts to back it up with ?

No need to answer really as i agree with your second point that it isnt a big deal

I will re read the topic, im certain my binges happen because my calories are too low. At the same time, in my mind, if i handle my binges with a compensatory fast the day after it balances it all out and i am still on track


----------



## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

0161M said:


> How is it fact i will lose more muscle then if you have no facts to back it up with ?


 Google it if you really care - this is basic textbook level stuff. Over the course of every day the body flips between net muscle protein gain after feeding and breakdown in between meals. You're permanently in the breakdown state if you eat zero protein all day.

Only trying to help - if you don't want to believe me that's fine  .


----------



## 0161M (Nov 17, 2015)

Ultrasonic said:


> Google it if you really care - this is basic textbook level stuff. Over the course of every day the body flips between net muscle protein gain after feeding and breakdown in between meals. You're permanently in the breakdown state if you eat zero protein all day.
> 
> Only trying to help - if you don't want to believe me that's fine  .


 Its not a case of not wanting to believe you, its just you havent backed anything up

Ive just been and done some further reading as you recommended and it goes directly against what youre saying, it is very interesting

https://www.dietdoctor.com/fasting-muscle-mass


----------



## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

I might have a link to a lecture by Stu Phillips on the subject bookmarked at home - I'll post it tonight if I do.

The basic process of intermittent periods of muscle synthesis and breakdown is as much fact as that chicken contains protein as far as I'm concerned.


----------



## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Just had a very quick look at the link you posted and I recognise the graph from the monster 'water fasting' thread a while back. Essentially the numbers for what the authors consider minimal muscle loss really aren't that minimal. I went into more details on the other thread so I'll try to find it for you...


----------



## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

This thread:

https://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/topic/299645-7-day-water-fast-log-challenge-hellish-hence-why-its-a-challenge/


----------

