# best diet for bodyfat drop



## Little_Jay (Feb 6, 2006)

is it keto? i want a diet i can stick to for a good 8-10 weeks maybe get my abs showing and then go from there, been traning for a good few months now, but want to see abs so going on a cut, keto the best for this? could someone give me a example diet if its not to much trouble?

i am currently 6 ft 2 and about 13 stone maybe 13 and a half,rough guess at bodyfat is 19-20%


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## Rambo55 (Jun 14, 2009)

The best diet is

a) one that serves the body

B) is sustainable

c) Is functional

Keto IMO isn't any of the above... Glycogen is way to important to use such as diet..

BW x 12 is a good starting point then work macros to 40/40/20

Don't complicate the un-complicated


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## Dig (Aug 28, 2007)

Why not just cut out any junk food and keep kcals at a decent level with cleaner foods and train hard. This will have a massive effect on the way you look.

At your height weight/weight reducing kcals or aiming to lose weight doesnt sound like a good idea as you will end up looking like a distance runner. Also you will prob just revert back to a similar diet after 'diet' is finished.


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## Little_Jay (Feb 6, 2006)

so what would you reccomend, basically i want to see my abs and pecs more defined then start a bulk, i havent seen my abs in years!!


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## ste247 (Mar 18, 2008)

Rambo55 said:


> The best diet is
> 
> a) one that serves the body
> 
> ...


 good point and your theory is good, exept the part were you say glygogen is important, do you realise the body can survive and function normal without carbs/ glygogen, also carbs play no role whatsoever in building muscle were fat and protien do, but on the other hand it cannot function proberly without fats as fat keep your internal organs functioning ect ect, so then imo your theory has gone out the window.

keto if done correct dose serve the body, is sustanible and is also functional, iam not saying i favour keto over carbs i think its all down to the individual but imo all the reasons above you listed why you shouldnt do keto couldnt be any further from the truth......

dont complicate the uncomplicted:thumb:

carb have no importance at all carbs act as an energy source and thats it, but fat is also an energy source but is important to the body


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## Adam_W (Jun 19, 2008)

James, to me it sounds like you need to 'bulk' as opposed to 'cut'.

6'2" at 13/13.5 stone (82.5/85kg) and a possible 19-20% body fat?

In my opinion, clean up your diet but start eating more! As Dig said, if you start to lose weight you will start to look like a marathon runner.


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## Dig (Aug 28, 2007)

james4d said:


> so what would you reccomend, basically i want to see my abs and pecs more defined then start a bulk, i havent seen my abs in years!!


Better people to answer this than me mate, but i would say dont look at it as cutting and bulking for time being. Just concentrate on getting plenty of good calories and training productively. Put up a current diet and how you train and it will be easier for people to help you


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## Ironclad (Jun 23, 2009)

Give up booze for 10 weeks. 1000's of cals, gone..


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## Rambo55 (Jun 14, 2009)

ste247 said:


> good point and your theory is good, exept the part were you say glygogen is important, do you realise the body can survive and function normal without carbs/ glygogen, also carbs play no role whatsoever in building muscle were fat and protien do, but on the other hand it cannot function proberly without fats as fat keep your internal organs functioning ect ect, so then imo your theory has gone out the window.
> 
> keto if done correct dose serve the body, is sustanible and is also functional, iam not saying i favour keto over carbs i think its all down to the individual but imo all the reasons above you listed why you shouldnt do keto couldnt be any further from the truth......
> 
> ...


Most people enjoy carbs over fats so 99% of ppl miss/crave carbs.

Being allowed to eat carbs gives you much more variaty in your foods thus making it more functional.

Ketos are NOT sustainable as after a while you will fizzle out and what wil you need? Carbs 

Also how long do you think you could eat chicken and broccoli?

Keto diets often come with rebound ( more so in women ) I've seen people go past there metabolic set point after keto diets so they end up FATTER ...

Also i cannot see how a keto can serve the body?

If you want to train with any ounce of intensity you need carbs mate


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## Tomwlsn99 (May 30, 2009)

I think if you want to drop dodyfat then I agree with Ste247......I am currently in a similar situation, weigh 13st and want to get my body fat down before I start a clean bulk. I have been following a cyclical ketogenic diet for two weeks so far and I'm losing fat. So far so good.


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## Tomwlsn99 (May 30, 2009)

There is far more variety of food than just chicken and broccoli. Beef, pork, lamb, bacon, chicken, turkey, salmon, prawns, tuna, eggs, cheese, nuts, asparagus, cabbage with bacon, mushrooms etc etc. After the first week I have honestly found that I have more energy and don't crave carbs (well only if the wife sits next to me eating chocolate). My strength has stayed the same due to the 24 hour carb up I have and I'm losing fat. I intend on doing this for 6 weeks, return to normal for a few weeks, then if needed get back on it. Speak to BIGJOE about the benefits of a CKD when trying to cut up mate.


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## Rambo55 (Jun 14, 2009)

You've done 2 weeks mate...... will see how your doing in 12

:edit: no offense i don't need advise to "cut up" Im a professional model i've posted pics before cant be ****d to search for the link...

Peace


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## Tomwlsn99 (May 30, 2009)

if you read his post "how to lose body fat" and you knew anything about a cyclical ketogenic diet you wouldn't be advising on eating carbs. I'm a professional boxer and know alot about conditioning. In my opinion, and no offence, you should stick to your modelling and not offer advice on something you clearly don't know about.


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## Rambo55 (Jun 14, 2009)

Anyone would think you could cure the world with CKD....

Pro boxer asking newbie Q's on a BB forum? hmmmm..

Worst diet for your sport


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## Jimmy1 (Aug 14, 2003)

tomwlsn99 mind your manners...rambo is trying to help....the op did ask for help didnt he?

imo rambo has a point tbh

i have followed all types of diets....but glycogen is necesary for fullness of muscle

upside to a keto..

quick weight loss

suppressed apetite

low water

downside to a keto...

bland boring food

servere loss of energy in the muscles

flattened look

not sustainable

when you eat normally again you rebound in a big way

i would never follow keto as a boxer


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## Tomwlsn99 (May 30, 2009)

James you should look into the CKD. It's different from the standard KETO diet because it allows you to replenish glycogen stores once a week which will mean you can still train in the gym with the same intensity. These carbs will be stored as glycogen if done properly, and your body will continue to use fat for energy. There are a few posts around on the CKD if you wanted to look, but obviously what works for one person might not with the next.


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## Rambo55 (Jun 14, 2009)

And yes the "quick" weight loss on a keto is mainly water but because it gives the dieter that "immediate" effect they think it's best...........


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## Jimmy1 (Aug 14, 2003)

lets not forget a bb'er using keto will fill out for a specific event

it matters not how tired/flat he is during the diet, so long as he looks good on the day

an athlete needs energy all the time


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## Rambo55 (Jun 14, 2009)

Tom,

We all know about CKD mate... there nothing new. most here have been there and done that and telling you whats "worked" best LONG RUN


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## Jimmy1 (Aug 14, 2003)

Tomwlsn99 said:


> James you should look into the CKD. It's different from the standard KETO diet because it allows you to replenish glycogen stores once a week which will mean you can still train in the gym with the same intensity. These carbs will be stored as glycogen if done properly, and your body will continue to use fat for energy. There are a few posts around on the CKD if you wanted to look, but obviously what works for one person might not with the next.


and keto doesnt work this way for everyone

i know guys who cant even push 2 plates on a keto from the very start of the diet


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## Tomwlsn99 (May 30, 2009)

The reason I'm asking questions on this forum is because they relate to body building. It has nothing to do with my boxing. The 700g of carbs I consume from Friday night to midnight sat is all I need to take me through the week. The cyclical ketogenic diet was designed for exactly this purpose.


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## sizar (Nov 13, 2008)

it's unreal the amount of newbies all they ask for is I WANT ABS .. PLEASE :? is it the media ? and all these magazine making people to be like that ? .. sorry yeah if you want abs . eat clean food train hard. do cardio you will see abs


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## Jimmy1 (Aug 14, 2003)

tom

as rambo says

stick with it and find out

UD2 is a good diet...but has short comings


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## sizar (Nov 13, 2008)

Jimmy said:


> and keto doesnt work this way for everyone
> 
> i know guys who cant even push 2 plates on a keto from the very start of the diet


jimmy when i was doing keto funny enough after couple of weeks i strengh was through the roof but i had days when i had no energy to do basics also got light headed few times . :innocent:


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## Tomwlsn99 (May 30, 2009)

love a bit of banter......but your right, what works for one won't for the next. Didn't want to be rude Rambo just that I know people who have trained this way and had very good results.


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## sizar (Nov 13, 2008)

Tomwlsn99 said:


> love a bit of banter......but your right, what works for one won't for the next. Didn't want to be rude Rambo just that I know people who have trained this way and had very good results.


if you know it already why ask mate.. just do it .. experiementing with your body is best way finding out


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## Rambo55 (Jun 14, 2009)

So do i tom but

"a diet has to fit the person not the person fit the diet."

Some i made for low carb other not

But dont make the BIG mistake you need a low carb diet to get lean


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## ThaiBoxer93 (Jul 14, 2009)

James4d It's a clear 50/50 split on the Keto diet mate. I wouldn't listen to people who tell you that you should bulk up from looking at your height/weight stats. If your not comfortable with your body you do what YOU think is best to change it.

As I've already told you I'm gonna start my keto diet Friday using info from the link I gave you. All I can say is choose a diet and give it a try. There's no one diet to rule them all it's all about finding one that suites you. Keto takes a lot of sacrifice, discipline & meal planning but does boast quick weight loss.. Again, best of luck dude.


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## sizar (Nov 13, 2008)

cardio clean food .. make calorie defict you get lean . will just take longer than doing keto


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## Tomwlsn99 (May 30, 2009)

James probably doesn't have a f***ing clue what to think now lol


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## sizar (Nov 13, 2008)

Tomwlsn99 said:


> James probably doesn't have a f***ing clue what to think now lol


sh!t happens


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## BillC (Jun 11, 2009)

Go on my superb chicken rice and brocolli diet. Sounds boring, not when you use a bottle a day of nados sause, it's frigginn addictive that stuff. 1 large chicken breast handful of rice, some brocolli and a splash of garlic peri peri. vary the amount of rice so as to carb cycle, simples. Much nicer than headache inducing keto diets where without glycogen in your muscles, you can't hold water so have minging head ow and horrendous breath. Come on, admit it, your breath honks on keto.


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## Jimmy1 (Aug 14, 2003)

there is alot to be said for chicken rice ,broc, olive oil and a little fruit

great diet tbh


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## ste247 (Mar 18, 2008)

Rambo55 said:


> Most people enjoy carbs over fats so 99% of ppl miss/crave carbs.
> 
> Being allowed to eat carbs gives you much more variaty in your foods thus making it more functional.
> 
> ...


 your corect carbs to give you more variaty of foods and fuller muscle ect, but if you no anything about nutrition the only purpose carbs serve to the body is energy end off, thats the point i was making, and you anwserd my question as i said you cannot survive with out fat and you said "Also how long do you think you could eat chicken and broccoli?and the anwser is not long like i said in the first place........carbs are not important they are non essential unlike fats and protien, iam not saying keto is the way to go iam simply saying your statement about carbs being important is false.....

and any diet that puts you in a calorie deflict will cause rebound when you bring the cals back upto were they were before weather it be keto or not......



Jimmy said:


> tomwlsn99 mind your manners...rambo is trying to help....the op did ask for help didnt he?
> 
> imo rambo has a point tbh
> 
> ...


 keto dose have its down side but so dose dieting with carbs to like insulin spike ect but as a boxer carbs are important to you as a source of energy, but thats it they play no role in building or maintaining muscle, rambo has made some good points i agree but as for carbs being important there not imo you can get buy without them, if your suffering from fatiuqe on keto up the fats........


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## Jimmy1 (Aug 14, 2003)

its all your opinion though

not every bodybuilder gets on this way

if you think they do, you are wrong

muscle glycogen is necesary to train hard with weights

but you are correct that one will suffer with low glycogen any other way of dieting also

there are ways around slin spikes also

i have done UD2 as well as many other variations

i can honestly say i have never been as tired and small on any diet, as i was on keto style

and if glycogen was so unimportant, why has lyle macD changed his thoughts and diet from 1 day of carbs, to 2.5 days of carbs?

in fact why do any keto style diets include carbs at all?

why does atkins add carbs as the diet as it progresses?


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## phys sam (Jan 11, 2008)

can you get to glucose on a keto diet?


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## phys sam (Jan 11, 2008)

does brain function not require carbs


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## Big Dawg (Feb 24, 2008)

Some interesting points made. It seems that most of the negative points raised about keto diets were related to the SKD, but the CKD IMO is perfectly sustainable. There's nothing bland about whole eggs, cheese, beef, peanut butter etc. However there's plenty bland about dry chicken, egg whites, plain rice etc, so IMO high fat foods win.

The carb up allows you to eat loads of high GI carbs every week which standard mod carb diets don't. Jimmy's right, it will not work for everyone. Some people will feel like absolute death if their carbs drop below say 250g. However for a lot of people (fat burners/ endomorphs etc) it works better than any other diet as they feel fine on high fat, low carbs and their insulin isn't constantly being spiked. I'm one of these people.


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## phys sam (Jan 11, 2008)

if in a low/no carb diet, the aim is to get glucose levels low enough to reach ketoss and use ketones, how does this affect brain function (as one example).

I have no strong feelings pro/con any diet (because I haven't got the will power to follow any  ).

The questions still stands. If organs like the brain have been shown to perform better in certain tests (like memory tests) on a normal/high carb diet, what effect is low carb having on organs.

I'm not debating the effect on muscles.


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## ste247 (Mar 18, 2008)

Jimmy said:


> its all your opinion though
> 
> not every bodybuilder gets on this way
> 
> ...


 you are correct i diet with carbs too, if i though every bodybuilder got on that way i would be stupid and igronent, the point i was trying to make is that we can survive without carbs, but not without pro and fat making carbs none important exept as a form as energy,fat acts both as a form of energy and helps build muscle and keep organs healthy ect, keto or none keto its down to each person, all iam trying to say is the statement that carbs are important to the human body is false, they are important as a source of energy only


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## Jimmy1 (Aug 14, 2003)

and they keep muscles full....hence, important to bb'ers as well....for looks...and to help push heavy weight

for this fact alone L macD has included 2.5 days massive carb up in ud2


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## ste247 (Mar 18, 2008)

AlasTTTair said:


> Some interesting points made. It seems that most of the negative points raised about keto diets were related to the SKD, but the CKD IMO is perfectly sustainable. There's nothing bland about whole eggs, cheese, beef, peanut butter etc. However there's plenty bland about dry chicken, egg whites, plain rice etc, so IMO high fat foods win.
> 
> The carb up allows you to eat loads of high GI carbs every week which standard mod carb diets don't. Jimmy's right, it will not work for everyone. Some people will feel like absolute death if their carbs drop below say 250g. However for a lot of people (fat burners/ endomorphs etc) it works better than any other diet as they feel fine on high fat, low carbs and their insulin isn't constantly being spiked. I'm one of these people.


 this ^^^^^^^ppl think coz keto dosnt work for them then i wont work for anyone, you need to keep an open mind when it comes to diet and find away that works for you......


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## B-GJOE (May 7, 2009)

ste247 said:


> this ^^^^^^^ppl think coz keto dosnt work for them then i wont work for anyone, you need to keep an open mind when it comes to diet and find away that works for you......


Well said, having experimented I have found keto suits me, but it is not necessarily true for all.

4 more days and i'm back on it. Actually looking forward to loosing the carb bloat i've been carrying around for the last 7 months.


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## Jimmy1 (Aug 14, 2003)

ste247 said:


> the point i was trying to make is that we can survive without carbs, but not without pro and fat making carbs none important exept as a form as energy,fat acts both as a form of energy and helps build muscle and keep organs healthy ect, keto or none keto its down to each person, all iam trying to say is the statement that carbs are important to the human body is false, they are important as a source of energy only


and as far as muscle growth goes....not many can eat enough to grow on fat/protein alone...in fact i know no one that can do this....so this means that carbs also play another major role in bb'ing


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## phys sam (Jan 11, 2008)

apologies if the question was simple, but does anyone have the answer please.


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## Jimmy1 (Aug 14, 2003)

phys sam said:


> if in a low/no carb diet, the aim is to get glucose levels low enough to reach ketoss and use ketones, how does this affect brain function (as one example).
> 
> I have no strong feelings pro/con any diet (because I haven't got the will power to follow any  ).
> 
> ...


tbh i cant give a scientific answer

but on low fat diets i cant add up 2+2

but high fat/low carb i am fine

in my exp i feel fat is more important for brain function


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## phys sam (Jan 11, 2008)

thx for the reply - I'm not sure either, although a quick scan of a few studies showed carbs and glucose were important for memory tests in animals and humans.

I was interested whether the advocates of keto diets (who seem sure you don't need carbs but you need fats/protein) knew.


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## B-GJOE (May 7, 2009)

phys sam said:


> apologies if the question was simple, but does anyone have the answer please.


If there was an answer to the question it would be the diet that 100% of people do successfully. As there is no such thing, and each variation of bf loss works differently for everyone, then you will have to experiment until you find the best for your body. IMO it is CKD, but rest assured there will be loads of people that disagree with me. That is the nature of the beast!!


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## phys sam (Jan 11, 2008)

phys sam said:


> if in a low/no carb diet, the aim is to get glucose levels low enough to reach ketoss and use ketones, how does this affect brain function (as one example).
> 
> I have no strong feelings pro/con any diet (because I haven't got the will power to follow any  ).
> 
> ...


sorry bigjoe, thats the question i was talking about


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## ste247 (Mar 18, 2008)

Jimmy said:


> and as far as muscle growth goes....not many can eat enough to grow on fat/protein alone...in fact i know no one that can do this....so this means that carbs also play another major role in bb'ing


 on a bulk carbs supply the energy that will be used in the gym and burned off, providing you eat the correct amount for your level of activity and bodyweight,the fats and protien build the muscle......carbs dont build muscle directly you are correct they play a role but only as energy, on a cut you dont need them enough fat again for level of activity and bodyweight will provide all the energy you need.............why am i even debating this i love carbs lol but you see my point, we could go on for ever you are correct and so is rambo but all iam stating is that carbs are a none essential macro nutriant.......


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## phys sam (Jan 11, 2008)

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh!!

why is it non essential? How do you know?!

Some brain functions like memory have been shown to require carb intake.


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## Big Dawg (Feb 24, 2008)

phys sam said:


> if in a low/no carb diet, the aim is to get glucose levels low enough to reach ketoss and use ketones, how does this affect brain function (as one example).
> 
> I have no strong feelings pro/con any diet (because I haven't got the will power to follow any  ).
> 
> ...


Basically mate the brain functions on glucose. It absolutely loves glucose, can't get enough! What happens on a low carb diet is that the brain is still trying to run off glucose, but glucose is too high for the body to enter ketosis and too low to function adequately from glucose, hence the foggy head feeling. In ketosis, the brain has switched from using glucose for fuel to using ketones, and it will do this quite happily, so all the nasty effects of a low carb diet are more or less eliminated.



Jimmy said:


> and as far as muscle growth goes....not many can eat enough to grow on fat/protein alone...in fact i know no one that can do this....so this means that carbs also play another major role in bb'ing


Absolutely, carbs are defo important when bulking to manipulate insulin, keep glycogen stores full and keep the body in an anabolic state. I know you know all this Jimmy but for anyone reading this, the body's main priority is not to build new tissue, and it will only build new tissue if it has enough glycogen to store in the muscles first (or so I've read). So carbs are definitely important. Some people need more and some people need less. It doesn't mean that people need to eat carbs all throughout the day to grow though; eating them just at brekkie and PWO may be plenty for an endomorph to grow and stay lean. Also, doing a variant of a CKD may also make it possible to gain lean mass, however it would be important that the body didn't actually go into ketosis (this would be very catabolic) so carbs would be kept at a minimal level so the body was fat adapted, but not relying on ketones for fuel. The weekly carb-up would fill muscles with glycogen and be very anabolic, theoretically supplying the body with enough glycogen to get it through the week's workouts. This is the approach I'll be trying after I've dieted down.


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## B-GJOE (May 7, 2009)

The organs will be fine utilising fat. In fact the heart ONLY uses fat for energy regardless of diet. The mitochondria of all cells prefer fat as their energy source. It is only when you increase intensity the requirement for energy supercedes that which the fat metabolism can supply, this is when your body will go for glycogen. As muscle cells are pretty much the only ones that will be feeling the pressure of increased output, these will be the cells that convert to glycolytic metabolism. It's pretty logical really, you only store glycogen in 2 areas, the liver and the muscles. So this must tell you something about what areas of the body require this form energy. Both areas will keep hold of a minimum level of glycogen, they never empty completely, that is why the body changes to ketones, and changes metabolism, hormones, etc etc to stop total emptying of stores. I hope that makes sense, because I just made it up, based on B|GJOE logic.


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## Jimmy1 (Aug 14, 2003)

ste247 said:


> on a bulk carbs supply the energy that will be used in the gym and burned off, providing you eat the correct amount for your level of activity and bodyweight,the fats and protien build the muscle......carbs dont build muscle directly you are correct they play a role but only as energy, on a cut you dont need them enough fat again for level of activity and bodyweight will provide all the energy you need.............why am i even debating this i love carbs lol but you see my point, we could go on for ever you are correct and so is rambo but all iam stating is that carbs are a none essential macro nutriant.......


as well as providing kcals needed to grow

carbs are necesary

for kcals

for muscle glycogen

for liver glycogen

your twisting words dude

just try and grow without them


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## B-GJOE (May 7, 2009)

phys sam said:


> aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh!!
> 
> why is it non essential? How do you know?!
> 
> Some brain functions like memory have been shown to require carb intake.


The brain actually pefers ketones, but for some silly reason will seek out carbs first, I suppose the brain is lazy. Ketones replace glucose and do the same job in the brain.


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## Big Dawg (Feb 24, 2008)

Jimmy said:


> as well as providing kcals needed to grow
> 
> carbs are necesary
> 
> ...


x2 necessary for all those things. Whether or not they're essential to live is a completely different point, but no one is going to gain muscle without a certain amount of carbs in their diet.


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## Big Dawg (Feb 24, 2008)

phys sam said:


> aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh!!
> 
> why is it non essential? How do you know?!
> 
> Some brain functions like memory have been shown to require carb intake.


Carbs are not essential for SURVIVAL mate. The body can SURVIVE perfectly well without carbohydrates, whereas it would diet without protein and fat. However carbs are important for MUSCLE GROWTH!


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## B-GJOE (May 7, 2009)

Jimmy said:


> as well as providing kcals needed to grow
> 
> carbs are necesary
> 
> ...


I think he meant that for a human being to live carbs are not essential, as you can live without them, unlike fats and protein. Obviously bodybuilders are not human, and we need extraordinary requirements to fuel our un-natural condition. Because it is un-natural, and also not very efficient. This is why we have to go to extraordinary lengths to fight the natural homeostatic responses.


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## B-GJOE (May 7, 2009)

AlasTTTair said:


> Carbs are not essential for SURVIVAL mate. The body can SURVIVE perfectly well without carbohydrates, whereas it would diet without protein and fat. However carbs are important for MUSCLE GROWTH!


Damn you AlasTTTair, you beat me to it. Twice!!!!


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## B-GJOE (May 7, 2009)

B|GJOE said:


> Damn you AlasTTTair, you beat me to it. Twice!!!!


Mind you, my version was a bit more sciency, which I suspect is getting to be the expected norm from me.


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## phys sam (Jan 11, 2008)

thanks lads, much appreciated 

I'll have a little read up.


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## Jimmy1 (Aug 14, 2003)

B|GJOE said:


> I think he meant that for a human being to live carbs are not essential,


no he said this



ste247 said:


> , but thats it they play no role in building


but regardless of this...he said glycogen wasnt needed at all in a diet

but like i asked twice now

why do nearly all keto diets have up to 2.5 days of massive carb ups?


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## ste247 (Mar 18, 2008)

Jimmy said:


> as well as providing kcals needed to grow
> 
> carbs are necesary
> 
> ...


 iam not twisting words lol and you can get kcals from fat too......



AlasTTTair said:


> x2 necessary for all those things. Whether or not they're essential to live is a completely different point, but no one is going to gain muscle without a certain amount of carbs in their diet.





B|GJOE said:


> I think he meant that for a human being to live carbs are not essential, as you can live without them, unlike fats and protein. Obviously bodybuilders are not human, and we need extraordinary requirements to fuel our un-natural condition. Because it is un-natural, and also not very efficient. This is why we have to go to extraordinary lengths to fight the natural homeostatic responses.


 thats what i meant i never said they was not important for muscle growth, but they are not important to survive.....


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## B-GJOE (May 7, 2009)

:cursing: Feeling the tension building in here

Share the love guys, it's almost valentines :wub:


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## ste247 (Mar 18, 2008)

Jimmy said:


> no he said this


 i said they play no direct role in building muscle and they dont fats and pro do, the carbs will provide enough energy to train so you dont use fat or pro for energy thus leaving them spare to build muscle.....look in any good book about nutrition carbs are just a energy source only, they do play a role but not directly who is twisting words now


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## Jimmy1 (Aug 14, 2003)

ste247 said:


> iam not twisting words lol and you can get kcals from fat too...........


 go on then, try it and see how you get on



ste247 said:


> thats what i meant i never said they was not important for muscle growth, but they are not important to survive.....


actually you said they had no place in buildng muscle....which is not correct...its twisting words


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## B-GJOE (May 7, 2009)

ste247 said:


> i said they play no direct role in building muscle and they dont fats and pro do, the carbs will provide enough energy to train so you dont use fat or pro for energy thus leaving them spare to build muscle.....look in any good book about nutrition carbs are just a energy source only, they do play a role but not directly who is twisting words now


Ahhh, true and not true. The carbs themselves play no role in building up muscle, but they do promote an environment where growth can take place. As carbs increase insulin more than any other nutrient by a long shot. Insulin is the most anabolic hormone in the body, not only does it make us fat, but also pushes nutrients including protein into the cells that require them.


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## Jimmy1 (Aug 14, 2003)

B|GJOE said:


> :cursing: Feeling the tension building in here
> 
> Share the love guys, it's almost valentines :wub:


no tention here

just trying to straighten up points missleading to members...its my job here

if everyone here thought carbs were not needed in bb'ing, we wouldnt be a very informative forum


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## ste247 (Mar 18, 2008)

Jimmy said:


> go on then, try it and see how you get on
> 
> actually you said they had no place in buildng muscle....which is not correct...its twisting words


 whatever lol i said they play no DIRECT role in building muscle pro and fat build muscle carbs are only a energy source, of course they play a role but only tru providing energy.....your twisting words coz you know iam right, you no exactly what i mean but for some reason you feel the need to keep quoting everything i say, maybe its to make me look stupid i dont know and i dont care, i know what i mean and i no its rite and thats all tha matters, i no you need carbs to bulk but to cut you dont and to live you dont thats all iam trying to say.....


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## leonface (May 10, 2009)

Some very interesting points raised! good thread


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## ste247 (Mar 18, 2008)

B|GJOE said:


> Ahhh, true and not true. The carbs themselves play no role in building up muscle, but they do promote an environment where growth can take place. As carbs increase insulin more than any other nutrient by a long shot. Insulin is the most anabolic hormone in the body, not only does it make us fat, but also pushes nutrients including protein into the cells that require them.


 yes i no all about insulin spikes ect but when the carbs have pushed nutriants into the muscle what bulds the muscle?....not the insulin/carbs


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## B-GJOE (May 7, 2009)

Jimmy said:


> no tention here
> 
> just trying to straighten up points missleading to members...its my job here
> 
> if everyone here thought carbs were not needed in bb'ing, we wouldnt be a very informative forum


There would also be a lot of stringy bodybuilders about.


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## B-GJOE (May 7, 2009)

ste247 said:


> yes i no all about insulin spikes ect but when the carbs have pushed nutriants into the muscle what bulds the muscle?....not the insulin/carbs


This is getting to be bit of a play on words. Reading between the lines of the above post, you are agreeing with me 100% but then repeating what I said in a different way to make it look like your point is still valid!


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## Jimmy1 (Aug 14, 2003)

ste247 said:


> whatever lol i said they play no DIRECT role in building muscle pro and fat build muscle carbs are only a energy source, of course they play a role but only tru providing energy.....your twisting words coz you know iam right, you no exactly what i mean but for some reason you feel the need to keep quoting everything i say, maybe its to make me look stupid i dont know and i dont care, i know what i mean and i no its rite and thats all tha matters, i no you need carbs to bulk but to cut you dont and to live you dont thats all iam trying to say.....


i have no interest in making you look stupid...why would i?

you a valuable member here

as said above, im trying to correct missleading posts for other members

your quoting technical science...which is fine if you cover yourself by quoting all the other facts...ie glycogen isnt needed (or however you wrote it) in building muscle

no it doesnt build tissue....but it does play a part in building a physique

it does get used in keto diets, otherwise there wouldnt be up to 2.5 day carb loads in them

they also keep a full look to a muscle which is important in bb'ing

you need to explain why you say something, otherwise you will get corrected

i havent done it in a bad way, nor have i been rude

but as i say...i have a job to do


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## ste247 (Mar 18, 2008)

B|GJOE said:


> This is getting to be bit of a play on words. Reading between the lines of the above post, you are agreeing with me 100% but then repeating what I said in a different way to make it look like your point is still valid!


 ffs iam not playing on words iam saying carbs do play a role in builing muscle by pushing bcaa's ect into the muscle but they dont directly build the muscle the fat and protien do, iam not playing on words its writen in black and white infront of you, you can make whatever you want out of it, go on a diet of just carbs and see how much muscle you build, none you will lose muscle as carbs dont build muscle its simple........they supply energy.....and ok help push nutriants into the muscle faster with insulin spikes, thats the only role they play......


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## Jimmy1 (Aug 14, 2003)

ste247 said:


> ffs iam not playing on words iam saying carbs do play a role in builing muscle by pushing bcaa's ect into the muscle but they dont directly build the muscle the fat and protien do, iam not playing on words its writen in black and white infront of you, you can make whatever you want out of it, go on a diet of just carbs and see how much muscle you build, none you will lose muscle as carbs dont build muscle its simple........they supply energy.....and ok help push nutriants into the muscle faster with insulin spikes, thats the only role they play......


again, your posts are missleading

carbs fill muscles with glycogen (pumped look)

carbs create kcals for necesary growth

you have to cover these points when you quote science

i have asked 4, or 5 times now

explain why carb ups are included (sometimes very high) in keto style diets if they are not needed

not trying to bug you mate...but it has to be said


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## B-GJOE (May 7, 2009)

Isn't it amazing how we are speaking the same language, and in principal are actually agreeing with each other, but we are still creating a debate from it. If we were in state high school we'd be on debating team for sure. :thumbs:


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## ste247 (Mar 18, 2008)

Jimmy said:


> again, your posts are missleading
> 
> carbs fill muscles with glycogen (pumped look)
> 
> ...


 carbs do fill the muscles with glygogen to give the pumped look, but on keto so dose sea salt with every meal, salt will act as an electrolyt.

carbs do create kcals but if your carbs are low the kcals will be made up of fat and pro, for example a diet of 2500 cals made up of pro fat and carbs, take the carbs away you will have less kcals in the diet, so then you make the cal differance back up with fats.....

the carbs ups needed because when you go with without carbs for a period of time your matablisim (bmr) slows and so will weight loss so the carbs will speed the motablisim up again, carbs stimulate the hormone called t3 during carb speeding motablisim up again, so like i said do we need carbs to live...no do we need them to build muscle no, but they do play a role i never said they never......


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## B-GJOE (May 7, 2009)

I'm not contributing to this thread now. I'm loosing the will to live. Feel like I am on a merry go round. No offence guys!


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## ste247 (Mar 18, 2008)

B|GJOE said:


> Isn't it amazing how we are speaking the same language, and in principal are actually agreeing with each other, but we are still creating a debate from it. If we were in state high school we'd be on debating team for sure. :thumbs:


 thats what its all about we all have differant ideas but on the whole they all work, a differance of opinion is allways going to happen in all walks of life..........


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## brockles (Jun 23, 2009)

I was led to believe carbs arent needed but glucose is. The body is able to run on ketones alone apart form the brain which requires glucose. When the body is in ketosis and theres the lack of glucose, it converts protein into glucose purely for the brain function. Well thats what i believed to be true but im not sure.


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## Tomwlsn99 (May 30, 2009)

This thread is getting pretty serious......


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## B-GJOE (May 7, 2009)

brockles said:


> I was led to believe carbs arent needed but glucose is. The body is able to run on ketones alone apart form the brain which requires glucose. When the body is in ketosis and theres the lack of glucose, it converts protein into glucose purely for the brain function. Well thats what i believed to be true but im not sure.


I think you are right, but it only needs about 30g of glucose per day, hence the 30g recommended daily dose of carbs on keto. Yes it will convert protein if required, but will most likely use dietary protein when in a fat metabolism.

Ooops have posted when I said I wouldn't


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## ste247 (Mar 18, 2008)

iam off to bed anyway no iam up at 6.30 for cardio as iam prepping for a show( and yes i eat carbs) for energy only lol...

op there is lots of interesting points on this thread make your own mind up on what path regards as diet you choose to take, thanks jimmy for the debate thats what ukm is about if you dont debate you dont learn imo speak soon..... :thumb:


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## B-GJOE (May 7, 2009)

ste247 said:


> iam off to bed anyway no iam up at 6.30 for cardio as iam prepping for a show( and yes i eat carbs) for energy only lol...
> 
> op there is lots of interesting points on this thread make your own mind up on what path regards as diet you choose to take, thanks jimmy for the debate thats what ukm is about if you dont debate you dont learn imo speak soon..... :thumb:


Goodnight sweetheart. I've got early morning cardio to look forward starting next week for contest prep 16 weeks, then going to stay in shape for a further 4 weeks after for a couple more shows. Wheyhey


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## Little_Jay (Feb 6, 2006)

so basically i still havent got a clue!!

but as people are saying i do eat clean well what i call clean, maybe just not enough food. whats this look like??

porridge with 10 cashew nuts

protien shake with eat natural bar

chicken bauggete with all the salad

train

protein shake

omlette/steak/fish

hows that look?


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## brockles (Jun 23, 2009)

That looks clean neough to me. Personally i would try keto out and if it doesnt work out for you then theres other diets to try out. Iv been on and off keto for about 2 months now. after the first few days you have lost alot of water weight and dont look as bloated which gives you alot of determination because its physically noticable os its a nice little boost to keep you going. Over the 2 months iv lost about 6 -8 lbs and havent put any on during the off weeks so im holding my own and am pretty happy about the way its going.


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## Little_Jay (Feb 6, 2006)

the thing is though mate, i dont want to do it then just put it all back on, so i might eat clean for say another month or two and then start keto just in time for summer?


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## B-GJOE (May 7, 2009)

james4d said:


> the thing is though mate, i dont want to do it then just put it all back on, so i might eat clean for say another month or two and then start keto just in time for summer?


Discipline my young padawan!!

Just introduce carbs slowly after the keto.


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## Little_Jay (Feb 6, 2006)

would just eating clean work though, but maybe slower? i might start this keto in march, im just doing well atm with my cardio, only thing that frustrates me is, even though i am loosing weight, i can tell my size is going down aswell!


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## hilly (Jan 19, 2008)

personal experience i felt fine on a keto for 6-8 weeks then felt like i hit a brick wall. got very sic,weak etc etc. i have heard this reported several times from people.

it also sent my cholesterol to 9.8 not good at all. after i droped the fats and added some carb cycling after 6 weeks cholesterol was down to 4.8

keto is not for my body it seems.


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## B-GJOE (May 7, 2009)

hilly said:


> personal experience i felt fine on a keto for 6-8 weeks then felt like i hit a brick wall. got very sic,weak etc etc. i have heard this reported several times from people.
> 
> it also sent my cholesterol to 9.8 not good at all. after i droped the fats and added some carb cycling after 6 weeks cholesterol was down to 4.8
> 
> keto is not for my body it seems.


At that point, maybe you could look at doing some stims. ECA etc.

Anyway, about cholesterol

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## UKWolverine (Apr 25, 2009)

If you have the determination and will power you could try UD2 as Jimmy mentioned, I've been led to believe it's the closest anyone has come to to the holy grail of leaning up and gaining on the same diet plan. It worked well for me.

You go low carb/low calorie and deplete glycogen doing high rep low weight exercises beginning of week (be warned these are murder on low cals/carbs) then you aim to super-compensate glycogen by doing a carb up and specific workout plan towards end of week-weekend.

This could be a bit aggressive to start with so I would ease in to it by simply creating a deficit and trying to manipulate your carb intake to around your workouts.

You could also look in to Intermittent Fasting, I'm doing 2 x 24 hr fasts a week just to handle the deficit, whilst not having to worry too much over what I'm eating. My strength has remained constant but i'm cutting abdominal fat, more of a lifestyle thing until spring when I'll look at doing 8wks of UD2 again.


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## B-GJOE (May 7, 2009)

UD2 looks real hard though, although I have no doubt about it's efficacy.


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## Big Dawg (Feb 24, 2008)

james4d said:


> the thing is though mate, i dont want to do it then just put it all back on, so i might eat clean for say another month or two and then start keto just in time for summer?


If you're having weekly carb ups then I can't see your body adversely reacting to carbs when you add them back in slowly. It'll still know what to do with them.


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## Tomwlsn99 (May 30, 2009)

How slowly should carbs be reintroduced after completion of the CKD? Should it be say 50g a day, going up 25g a week?


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## Big Dawg (Feb 24, 2008)

Tomwlsn99 said:


> How slowly should carbs be reintroduced after completion of the CKD? Should it be say 50g a day, going up 25g a week?


I'd start with 45g PWO, see how you get on, then next week if you want to add in another 45 brekkie that wouldn't be a problem.


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## Tomwlsn99 (May 30, 2009)

When you say post workout would that include my morning cardio sessions? Or just the three weights sessions? I'm assuming it should be a high GI carb like maltodextrin etc.


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## Big Dawg (Feb 24, 2008)

Tomwlsn99 said:


> When you say post workout would that include my morning cardio sessions? Or just the three weights sessions? I'm assuming it should be a high GI carb like maltodextrin etc.


A morning cardio session should not be intense mate and should therefore not utilize any significant glycogen or require glycogen replenishment. There is absolutely no need to chug down fast carbs and spike your insulin after a low intensity cardio session. It's send your blood sugar ridiculous for no benefit.

Just after weights sessions mate and up carbs gradually til you're at a 1:1:1 ratio if necessary.


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## Tomwlsn99 (May 30, 2009)

Nice one Al.....You've helped me out a few times recently. Very knowledgable.....the water must be better there in Scouse land.

Just have to work out how to get a 1:1:1 ratio with maintenance calories of 2600.


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## Big Dawg (Feb 24, 2008)

Tomwlsn99 said:


> Nice one Al.....You've helped me out a few times recently. Very knowledgable.....the water must be better there in Scouse land.
> 
> Just have to work out how to get a 1:1:1 ratio with maintenance calories of 2600.


Simple:

2600/3 = 866

866/4=216

866/9=96

So that'd be 216/216/96 c/p/f. Fine for maintenance, but assuming you have some muscular size a fair bit more protein would be good for gainage.


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