# When to take PWO carbs if doing cardio after lifting?



## Zee Deveel (Nov 5, 2009)

So say I lift for 45 mins, I wanna get my shake down me asap, so I take 50g of Whey and 50g of Dextrose or whatever, but then I wanna hit some cardio.

Will the Dextrose then just be used as the fuel source for my cardio thus meaning the cardio will not burn much fat and my muscles won't receive the gylcogen replenishment needed PWO?


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## xeonedbody (Aug 28, 2009)

If during workout you have not burnt all the carbs from your pre-workout meal than if you take the PWO shake you mentioned in your post...you will add up more carbs and yes, your body will burn the carbs first before burning fat to source energy for cardio.

I personally do 30 minutes cardio after my workout and than take my PWO shake which contains 40g protein 40g carbs and 3g creatine. I find it works best for me.


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

Best time to take is actually BEFORE the weights - apart from the fact that studies show carbs and protein to give a greater anabolic response when taken before and during the session than after, consuming the carbs pre will ensure they are used for energy rather than fat storage (if that's your worry).

If using 50g carbs & 50g whey as in your post, I'd mix this up 30 mins pre and drink half immediately and then the rest sipped through the weights and cardio sessions. A small extra protein hit PWO wouldn't hurt either but is less important.


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## Zee Deveel (Nov 5, 2009)

xeonedbody said:


> If during workout you have not burnt all the carbs from your pre-workout meal than if you take the PWO shake you mentioned in your post...you will add up more carbs and yes, your body will burn the carbs first before burning fat to source energy for cardio.


Hmm but then at what time can I take the carbs to refuel PWO?



Dtlv74 said:


> Best time to take is actually BEFORE the weights - apart from the fact that studies show carbs and protein to give a greater anabolic response when taken before and during the session than after, consuming the carbs pre will ensure they are used for energy rather than fat storage (if that's your worry).
> 
> If using 50g carbs & 50g whey as in your post, I'd mix this up 30 mins pre and drink half immediately and then the rest sipped through the weights and cardio sessions. A small extra protein hit PWO wouldn't hurt either but is less important.


I eat a pre-workout meal of carbs and protein to fuel me through my workout and make sure I've got protein already in me being digested.

The purpose of the dextrose PWO is to fuel protein synthesis and spike insulin. I'm concerned that if I take the shake and then do cardio afterwards then my body is just gonna use the Dextrose as the fuel source for my cardio rather than bodyfat as intended. However, if I wait until after the cardio to take my protein/carb shake then I may have missed the window of opportunity to pour liquid protein into my muscles to help them rebuild after lifting.

Hope this makes sense!


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## xeonedbody (Aug 28, 2009)

Thats correct...carbs in PWO shake ensure that you spike insulin levels to allow efficient delivery of protein to your muscles...I would suggest taking the shake after 30min cardio...you'll be within the window of opportunity...id also suggest nothing too heavy on cardio


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

Zee Deveel said:


> Hmm but then at what time can I take the carbs to refuel PWO?
> 
> I eat a pre-workout meal of carbs and protein to fuel me through my workout and make sure I've got protein already in me being digested.
> 
> ...


I know what you are saying but insulin in your system already during the workout is more anabolic than spiking it afterwards - and it stimulates a greater level of protein synthesis than waiting to spike insulin after the session.



> *Timing of amino acid-carbohydrate ingestion alters anabolic response of muscle to resistance exercise.*
> 
> Tipton KD, Rasmussen BB, Miller SL, Wolf SE, Owens-Stovall SK, Petrini BE, Wolfe RR.
> 
> ...


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## Big Dawg (Feb 24, 2008)

If you're doing PWO cardio, have the shake AFTER the cardio!


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## Rocho (Mar 30, 2009)

Zee Deveel said:


> So say I lift for 45 mins, I wanna get my shake down me asap, so I take 50g of Whey and 50g of Dextrose or whatever, but then I wanna hit some cardio.
> 
> Will the Dextrose then just be used as the fuel source for my cardio thus meaning the cardio will not burn much fat and my muscles won't receive the gylcogen replenishment needed PWO?





AlasTTTair said:


> If you're doing PWO cardio, have the shake AFTER the cardio!


 As AlasTTTair says, shake AFTER cardio, but try Take some BCAA's after weights, then protien & fast carbs after cardio. :thumbup1:


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## Zee Deveel (Nov 5, 2009)

Well this is interesting, been doing some research into it and it seems lots of people believe that insulin spiking PWO is actually a really bad idea.

The counter argument seems to be that your insulin levels should be elevated enough from your pre-workout meal to provide adequate refueling for the muscles without the need for high GI carbohydrates such as dextrose.

The article below states that the initial period of muscle glyconogenesis pwo doesn't even require insulin to take place so an insulin spike is unnecessary.



> Jentjens R, Jeukendrup A.
> 
> Human Performance Laboratory, School of Sport and Exercise Sciences, University of Birmingham, Edgbaston, Birmingham, UK.
> 
> *The pattern of muscle glycogen synthesis following glycogen-depleting exercise occurs in two phases. Initially, there is a period of rapid synthesis of muscle glycogen that does not require the presence of insulin and lasts about 30-60 minutes. This rapid phase of muscle glycogen synthesis is characterised by an exercise-induced translocation of glucose transporter carrier protein-4 to the cell surface, leading to an increased permeability of the muscle membrane to glucose. Following this rapid phase of glycogen synthesis, muscle glycogen synthesis occurs at a much slower rate and this phase can last for several hours. *Both muscle contraction and insulin have been shown to increase the activity of glycogen synthase, the rate-limiting enzyme in glycogen synthesis. Furthermore, it has been shown that muscle glycogen concentration is a potent regulator of glycogen synthase. Low muscle glycogen concentrations following exercise are associated with an increased rate of glucose transport and an increased capacity to convert glucose into glycogen.The highest muscle glycogen synthesis rates have been reported when large amounts of carbohydrate (1.0-1.85 g/kg/h) are consumed immediately post-exercise and at 15-60 minute intervals thereafter, for up to 5 hours post-exercise. When carbohydrate ingestion is delayed by several hours, this may lead to ~50% lower rates of muscle glycogen synthesis. The addition of certain amino acids and/or proteins to a carbohydrate supplement can increase muscle glycogen synthesis rates, most probably because of an enhanced insulin response. However, when carbohydrate intake is high (>/=1.2 g/kg/h) and provided at regular intervals, a further increase in insulin concentrations by additional supplementation of protein and/or amino acids does not further increase the rate of muscle glycogen synthesis. Thus, when carbohydrate intake is insufficient (<1.2 g/kg/h), the addition of certain amino acids and/or proteins may be beneficial for muscle glycogen synthesis. Furthermore, ingestion of insulinotropic protein and/or amino acid mixtures might stimulate post-exercise net muscle protein anabolism. *Suggestions have been made that carbohydrate availability is the main limiting factor for glycogen synthesis. A large part of the ingested glucose that enters the bloodstream appears to be extracted by tissues other than the exercise muscle (i.e. liver, other muscle groups or fat tissue) and may therefore limit the amount of glucose available to maximise muscle glycogen synthesis rates.* Furthermore, intestinal glucose absorption may also be a rate-limiting


This means the reasons to take carbohydrates post-workout would be to keep insulin levels elevated over the next few hours and also to act as a fuel source for protein synthesis.

The fuel for the initial stages of protein synthesis should have been taken care of by your pre-workout meal and so a longer term fuel source than dextrose would be more appropriate.

Spiking insulin it seems is a poorly regarded practice in any case due to a decrease in insulin sensitivity over the long term and a potential risk of diabeties.

So based on all this I'm thinking:

60 mins pre-workout:

Wholefood meal with plenty of carbs and protein.

Immediately PWO:

50g Whey with a cup of oats blended in.

60 mins after:

Wholefood meal with plenty of protein.

This thread contains loads of useful info:

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=170643&highlight=tired


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## GHS (Oct 6, 2008)

Do your workout as normal.

Then do your cardio straight after as normal.

Then have your postworkout shake after your cardio.

Obviously drink water throughout.


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

The only advantage to high levels of fast carbs after training is that by whacking out the insulin and taking advantage of the increased ability of the cell to take up blood glucose due to GLUT4 transloaction you can super saturate your glycogen storage and actually increase your glycogen storage capacity over time.

This has an advantage in fighting fatty weight gain as if you eat carbs once your glycogen stores are full your body can only store them as fat - so the bigger glycogen stores you have, the more carbs you can handle before experiencing fat gain. Carbs stored as glycogen also fuel explosive muscular contractions that you never can from fats alone, so glycogen is a required fuel source for top end performance.

There is also one other potential benefit to carbs PWO - if your training is heavily lactate and glycogen burning (this is very intensity dependent) then you may well feel like crap PWO until you 'carb up'. This is due to low liver glycogen levels which can leave you fuzzy headed, a bit shakey and feeling extremely 'heavy' and tired. Some carbs PWO will help you feel normal again very quickly.

The disadvantage of pwo carbs though is to get the supercompensatory effect you have to have a lot of carbs - and get this only slightly wrong and you will be storing extra bodyfat.

In terms of taking carbs before the session, the insulin response at this time is more anabolic for muscular growth and stimulation of extra protein synthesis - so as far as I see it, carbs + protein pre workout is more important than carbs after, so in the case of weights followed by cardio I would have two drinks, a main one taken pre and during and then a smaller 'top-up' one post cardio workout.

If for some reason though it was an 'either/or' decision i would take before rather than after the session as the overall anabolic advantage is better, and the risk of adding bodyfat lesser in this case even if it isn't the optimum glycogen replenishment stratergy.


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## Zee Deveel (Nov 5, 2009)

Dtlv74 said:


> This has an advantage in fighting fatty weight gain as if you eat carbs once your glycogen stores are full your body can only store them as fat - so the bigger glycogen stores you have, the more carbs you can handle before experiencing fat gain. Carbs stored as glycogen also fuel explosive muscular contractions that you never can from fats alone, so glycogen is a required fuel source for top end performance.


This may be a long term affect but in the short term spiking insulin with high GI carbs is gonna 'cause you to gain fat since insulin will also store glycogen in adipose tissue. So if that's the only benefit then it doesn't seem worth bothering.

I agree though, it seems like the pre-workout meal is actually the more important one!


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## leonface (May 10, 2009)

does this not mean then that pre workout supplements that say should be taken on an empty stomach are a bad idea? I am currently using Gaspari's Superpump 250 which is working well do me, but it means that prior to working out, my last proper meal is approx 3-4 hours before it... any advice?


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

Zee Deveel said:


> This may be a long term affect but in the short term spiking insulin with high GI carbs is gonna 'cause you to gain fat since insulin will also store *glycogen* in adipose tissue. So if that's the only benefit then it doesn't seem worth bothering.
> 
> I agree though, it seems like the pre-workout meal is actually the more important one!


Don't you mean *glucose*? (easy typo, lol).

The conversion of glucose to triglycerides in the liver for later fat storage is primarily signalled by full glycogen stores, so really isn't an issue when spiking insulin from carbs 20-30mins pre workout... as by the time those carbs hit the bloodstream (which happens roughly after 20-30 mins on an empty stomach - longer otherwise) you will already be training and burning through glycogen so those stores cannot be empty at this time. The presence of adrenaline as a response to muscular effort also accelerates blood glucose use as a direct fuel - another thing which reduces the likelyhood of fat gain.

Combined with the fact that high VO2 max glycolytic exercise burns more calories overall than lower intensities, you will actually burn more fat when training in a way also burns the most carbohydrate - and you can only reach this intensity maximally and for a sustained duration when using carbs as a primary fuel.

Putting this altogether with the increased anabolic response to raised insulin during the workout mentioned a few post ago, this makes an immediate pre workout carb feed actually quite a good option for fat burning - provided you take advantage of the performance benefit these carbs give and really work your nuts off!


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## hilly (Jan 19, 2008)

Something i have added in recently and i think it has made a great addition is the below shake. i drink half before leaving for the gym and sip the rest during finishing it as i finish my last set. I actually get some hypo feelings from doing this which means your blood sugars are low because all the carbs and other nutrients taken with this have been pushed into the muscle.

50g malto

20g liquid aminos

5g bcaa

5g leacine

5g creatine

5g glut.


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## martin brown (Dec 31, 2008)

Dtlv74 said:


> Putting this altogether with the increased anabolic response to raised insulin during the workout mentioned a few post ago, this makes an immediate pre workout carb feed actually quite a good option for fat burning - provided you take advantage of the performance benefit these carbs give and really work your nuts off!


Do you think the net gain is greater despite the limiting GH release shown with ingesting insulin spiking CHO pre workout?

Another point to consider is what constitutes a pre workout meal- I would certainly avoid anything slow digesting at least 90mins pre workout if not 2hrs before. You don't want to be digesting steak whilst your supposoed to be using blood for muscular work, just as the amino delivery of a meal is far slower and has less impact than a shake can provide. I think at these times powders have a much greater effect.


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

martin brown said:


> Do you think the net gain is greater despite the limiting GH release shown with ingesting insulin spiking CHO pre workout?


I think the increased potential anabolic benefit of insulin outweighs the anabolic benefit of the GH it supresses. Also worth remembering that if nothing is taken immediately post workout, then GH will spike at this time (or around 40 mins after the session), whereas PWO carbs and protein will cancel this GH response anyway.

By spiking the insulin pre, you get the anabolic benefits of it during the session, and then by taking nothing after the fat burning and mild anabolic benefits of natural GH afterwards too.

Having said that though, natural levels of GH at this time is not a huge amount - and its only released to spare tissue as the body is in a stae of hunger. The most significant pulse of GH is just after falling asleep and is 50+ times greater than a PWO spike - so a sixty minute nap PWO and no supplementaion or immediate PWO nutrients might be the most anabolic thing to do of all!


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## martin brown (Dec 31, 2008)

Thanks. It's something that's been argued a fair bit and good to get your opinion.

M


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## spaynter (Jul 6, 2009)

Dtlv74 said:


> I think the increased potential anabolic benefit of insulin outweighs the anabolic benefit of the GH it supresses. Also worth remembering that if nothing is taken immediately post workout, then GH will spike at this time (or around 40 mins after the session), whereas PWO carbs and protein will cancel this GH response anyway.
> 
> By spiking the insulin pre, you get the anabolic benefits of it during the session, and then by taking nothing after the fat burning and mild anabolic benefits of natural GH afterwards too.
> 
> Having said that though, natural levels of GH at this time is not a huge amount - and its only released to spare tissue as the body is in a stae of hunger. The most significant pulse of GH is just after falling asleep and is 50+ times greater than a PWO spike - so a sixty minute nap PWO and no supplementaion or immediate PWO nutrients might be the most anabolic thing to do of all!


So in summary:

Fast carbs and protein shake. Glug half 30 mins PreWO and sip the rest to the end of the workout. Say 50g and 50g (obviously body dependent)

PostWO same but smaller (say 20g, 20g)? Or leave it altogether if you don't feel like crap?


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

spaynter said:


> So in summary:
> 
> Fast carbs and protein shake. Glug half 30 mins PreWO and sip the rest to the end of the workout. Say 50g and 50g (obviously body dependent)
> 
> PostWO same but smaller (say 20g, 20g)? Or leave it altogether if you don't feel like crap?


That's exactly how I see it - if training for a long duration and feeling really rough afterwards (very low liver glycogen) then I'd definitely have the smaller PWO shake too - otherwise no real need. I'd see the pre- shake as the vital one.


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## Mav (Jul 2, 2009)

I am thinking of ditching my PWO shake in favour of what has been suggested on here. I have ordered some Malto, BCAA and glut but one question I have is I have been using Reflex Growth Matrix as my PWO shake and from what you guys have been saying I think this will make a good PRE workout shake. Do you agree?

Growth Matrix contains:

Protein 37g

Carbs(malto) 55g

Leucine 7mg

Glutamine 5g

Creatine 2.5mg

Plus all the other usual Aminos.

Then after workout I was thinking of having a shake with 20g pro and 20g Malto. Does this sound OK?

Cheers

Mav


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

Mav - that formula looks ok for a pre workout drink to me. 7mg of Leucine is tiny, but I'm assuming the 37g of non specific 'Protein' contains a lot more of it as most formulas do. Leucine is a great one to include pre as it's highly insulinic and also is the amino most oxidised from muscle tissue when you train - so supplementing with it pre workout has an anticatabolic effect.

If you choose to have the post workout drink too then BCAAs & malto are fine.


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## Mav (Jul 2, 2009)

How much leucine do you recommend for a pre workout shake?

Cheers

Mav


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

But, the liver can store about 70 grams of glucose and the muscle hundreds of grams of glycogen.

I dont care how killer your workout is I doubt very much there would be that big of a shortage of glucose when training.

Carb depleting yes and this thread is in the losing weight area of the board.

I dont and never have rated fast acting carbs at anytime of workouts.

PWO you are insulin sensitive anyway, so it in my mind is pointless to spike insulin PWO, you are already insulin sensitive.

I also hate working out when I have a feeling of fullness.

Simple sugars in my opinion should be avoided anyway, over time this will only make you insuln reisistant.

I have a diabetic friend, he does both resistance training and cardio, his blood sugar levels are lower after cardio workouts than resistance training workouts regardless of intensity.

I found that very strange but although I cant explain it this is what it is.

I do some days not add in carbs and when I train, I do run out of gas and just cant push myself, especially when the intensity is up, first few reps are fine and one rep max is fine, but by the end of the workout I feel drained physically and emotionally.

Again, I cant stand that full feeling when training.

Interesting thread.


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

You can grow and train well without taking in any carbs for sure, and for some people fast carbs at any time bloat the stomach and make large doses uncomfortable.

The idea that fast carbs in all conditions will automatically make you insulin resistant though is a fallacy - *this only happens when fast carbs are consumed once all glycogen stores are full**. *In this situation the insulin receptors are stimulated to downgrade due to the presence of plasma insulin in this condition because the cells have nowhere to store the glucose and dont want it - is part of the mechanism that sends the excess glucose back to the liver for conversion to triglycerides.

Have been assuming that the original poster in this thread is relatively low-moderate carb in his diet, since it's a fat loss thread, and that is the best dietary approach for this. In such a case if also doing cardio to lose weight, and in an overall caloric defecit as he should be, the body will find protein harder than normal to sythesise for new muscle - so any extra anabolic stimulus is going to help him grow and maintain muscle at the same time as losing overall bodyweight. This combined with the fact that his calorie defecit and cardio will ensure his glyogen levels are not ever full makes this a very safe protocol in my opinion.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Nice post^^^^^^^

So, would you be in agreement that using slower spiking simple sugars should be avoided in dieting situations?

I personally don't like the idea of spiking blood sugars when dieting, problem being is that spiking blood sugars generally get a spike from insulin, that being a storage hormone will drive the blood sugars down low or even lower triggering a hunger effect due to the brain calling out for glucose as it is the biggest glucose hog in the body, which it didn't get from the last spiking meal.

I would suggest that keeping blood sugar levels more stable would allow the body to have more of a drip feeding effect and less chance of binging as blood sugar levels won't be terribly low.

I know insulin is anabolic but to a mild degree so is GH which when insulin is low GH production is higher, that and keeping blood sugars more stable would give the person a better profile for fat loss and less chance of binge eating.

So, do you feel simple sugars have their place in a person trying to get very low body fat levels?


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

hackskii said:


> Nice post^^^^^^^
> 
> So, would you be in agreement that using slower spiking simple sugars should be avoided in dieting situations?
> 
> ...


Nice question!

IMO I think it depends on the person and their 'normal' relationship with bodyfat. If cutting from a naturally low boyfat set point then their insulin sensitivity is probably going to be good and nothing to worry about. if it's someone who starts out very overweight and has real fat gain issues then there's definitely a case for forgetting about fast carbs altogether.

High dosing of glycine and/or glutamine plus high dose BCAAs could be an alternative to carbs here as the glycine and glutamine gets be converted to glycogen intracellularly if glycogen stores are depleted and they are taken instead of carbs... and the BCAAs would provide the desired insulin spike. Is not as effective but does work.

I tend to get on well with carbs and have a low natural bodyfat - have never been above 13% in my life and normally hover around 10% without paying any real attention to cutting, but I still avoid fast carbs most of the time and only have them in any quantity around the workout - 20-30g pre (which i consider enough) and sometimes, depending on how I'm training, 20g post too.

For someone who struggles to get down to 15% b/fat though it may not be such a good idea... really depends on how each individual responds, but for someone who is cutting but doesn't have too much of a problem with bodyfat I'd think they'd be fine.


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## hilly (Jan 19, 2008)

ive dieted without any simple carbs this year and have found it much better. Ive become so sensitive even the oats so simple golden syrup makes me hypo lmao.

I think as hacksii said keeping blood sugar levels stable and low is more efficient for burning fat for most in my experience that is.


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## hilly (Jan 19, 2008)

pwo i have isolate, pre workout nothing just my solid meal usually an hour or 2 before i train


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## hilly (Jan 19, 2008)

nope as im dieting just isolate mate


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

My memory sucks as I don't remember this thread at all! :lol:

Forget all the [email protected] I posted above and just go for the protein PWO... the advice I gave is really more suitable for a workout focused mainly on gaining muscle with minor focus only on losing fat.

I was trying to make the point in my posts above that carbs pre workout can be beneficial for muscle maintenance during cutting, but it's very dependent upon the situation (intensity of cardio, diet as a whole, frequency of training) and I didn't manage to explain it very well.

A simpler approach is to keep it simple, avoid the carbs and get some quality protein in :thumbup1:


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## Lois_Lane (Jul 21, 2009)

I have been using GASPARI size on and find it a good product to drink while training.

I just have a whey shake right after these days.


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## Lois_Lane (Jul 21, 2009)

ruaidhri said:


> why no carbs postworkout? do you not buy the whole insulin spike thing?


Size on spikes my insulin as it has carbs in it, i am more of an insulin while i am working out Milos Sacrv style person than bang in tons right after training. Pre and during nutrition is more important than PWO in my opinion. Muscles don't grow right away after they are broken down but you certainly can have a less catabolic environment while breaking them down by having insulin levels increased.

As far as cardio i only do HIIT for short periods after training usually 10 minutes now in the off season. I don't drink any thing during this as it makes me feel very ill.


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

Lois_Lane said:


> Size on spikes my insulin as it has carbs in it,* i am more of an insulin while i am working out Milos Sacrv style person than bang in tons right after training. Pre and during nutrition is more important than PWO in my opinion. Muscles don't grow right away after they are broken down but you certainly can have a less catabolic environment while breaking them down by having insulin levels increased.*
> 
> As far as cardio i only do HIIT for short periods after training usually 10 minutes now in the off season. I don't drink any thing during this as it makes me feel very ill.


That's basically what I was trying to say before, but Con has said it with much less nonsense :thumb:


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## Lois_Lane (Jul 21, 2009)

When i am cutting i just go home and have whatever meal is next.

Screw wasting precious calories on liquids of any kind.

Don't over think it and put the work in simple really.


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## ba baracuss (Apr 26, 2004)

ruaidhri said:


> I would go with the before/during shake instead of postworkout if i wasn't doing cardio for 45 mins after weights (I need some carbs after all that!).
> 
> How many carbs should i have in my postworkout shake? I thought you would only need enough to induce an insulin spike, so like anything over 30g?


You should be using most of the carbs in your weights session, that's why you do cardio afterwards in the hope that it impacts on fat stores.

If you need carbs afterwards have some but go easy if you're cutting and maybe make them lower GI such as oats rather than malto/dextrose/cornflour.

Spiking insulin may have anabolic benefits but it also contributes to fat gain.


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

ruaidhri, insulin is definitely important for activating certain growth pathways... many (although not all) of the most powerful growth pathways that lead to muscle hypertrophy are insulin dependent, but you don't actually need high levels of insulin to get the job done - amino acids like Leucine are pretty insulinic anyway and they provide enough of a spike PWO to achieve this... and some studies (not all studies it has to be said) show you can get better effects by having the insulin spiked immediately before and during the workout than after. This is where the pre workout carbs come in.

The carbs post workout dogma is all about super fast replenishment of glycogen, which does have significant advantages if you train in way that drains your glycogen stores in a big way, but in all honesty most bodybuilding training doesn't do this.

For an endurance athlete, or sports person who trains several hours daily, replenishing glycogen aggressively would be very useful, but not as much so for a bodybuilder. Somewhere along the way, the studies on replenishing glycogen in the window for endurance athletes have got muddled up with the studies on the benefits of fast proteins in the same window for bodybuilders, and like a game of chinese whispers it's become part of mainstream thinking that you need to take both carbs and protein.

If you train in such a way that involves a lot of weights and other exercise and aren't trying to maximise fat oxidation, PWO carbs will provide an advantage to recovery and performance, but if looking to maximise fat burning the very high insulin PWO from carbs is a bit counter productive.

Hope that makes sense :confused1:


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

ruaidhri said:


> Yeah, beginning to understand now, won't let me rep you again!
> 
> You've convinced me to do away with post workout carbs but I'm still not sure how best to use all this info to my advantage.
> 
> What about if i halved the 60g whey (actually more than that, however much equates to 60g protein) I usually have postworkout. I could take half with carbs 20 mins prewokout and the rest on its own postworkout (post cardio). Is this the best strategy?


That looks solid to me and is pretty much what I mostly do - protein and carbs pre workout (and sometimes sipped through the first half of the workout) and then a protein 'top up' just after.

I'd suggest trying it for a month or so and see... that's the most important thing afterall, how it works in practise. I certainly get on better doing things that way.


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

50/50 malto/dex - ideal. The suggested amount of carbs is 0.5g per kg... that's what works in the studies anyway, so for you around 45g. I take less though, more like around 0.25g per kg.

I'll have to look at the studies again on whether taking pre- or intra- show one being better than the other or the same... will post back on this in the morning.

I always aim to drink mine all pre, but don't like to glug it all so often end up taking half before and then sipping the rest through the first part of the workout.

Insulin pre won't inhibit fat loss as while training you will use the energy source most appropriate to how you are training - if your exercise level is low intensity and aerobic, you will use intramuscular fat before subcutaneous fat anyway, and insulin only inhibits subcutaneous fat oxidation... it's only once you've burned through most of the intramuscular fat that you start on the subcut stuff, and your post weights cardio will deal with that when insulin has decreased anyway.

If your training is higher intensity and anaerobic (eg typical weight training and what you seem to be doing) then your main fuel source will be mostly glucose and glycogen, so not much immediate fat burning to interfere with especially considering the first stage of fat burning is intramuscular fat.

The fat burning from weights actually comes both from what you burn around the workout time and, perhaps more importantly EPOC (excess postexercise oxygen consumption) anyway - fat burned after the session due to increased metabolism and spread over 24 hours or so. This is especially true with high intensity training but not so much with lower intensity higher volume training.

I don't think you are kidding yourself at all mate - so long as you aren't aggressively cutting and are prepared to take it fairly slowly, you can definitely improve strength and lose a bit of fat and maybe add a little lean tissue too... provided your kcals aren't that far below maintenance this is definitely possible. :thumbup1:


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

ruaidhri said:


> That's great, thanks. I've learned a lot tonight.
> 
> Why do you personally only take .25g/kg, .5g/kg doesn't sound that much?
> 
> Also just read over on T Nation that "pre-workout meals can be 200% more effective for stimulating muscle growth compared to post-workout (Tipton et al., 2001)" :thumbup1:


  Tipton, Wolf and Rasmussen... three researchers who did a range of studies on this topic and whose research I think is excellent and unashamedly steal... if in the future all this info I'm suggesting is proven to be wrong, blame them for convincing me of it all :lol:

I just take the .25g/kg ish (that's approximate - I weigh my protein but just take a scoop of carbs) because I'm always coming off a high-ish carb meal a couple of hours before... I only want the carbs for a little insulin kick.


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## hilly (Jan 19, 2008)

spot on info by dtlv as always.

My opinion is causing an insulin spike pre and during is causing ure body to push all the nutrients from the blood into the muscle tissue. This being IMO exactly what we want to happen when training for not only nutrients but also liquid volume into the muscle cells etc also better pump etc etc.

However most people as dtlv has said really over do the carbs thats why i like to make my own shake. the workout itself and aminos cause a spike so i feel 20g simple carbs is more than enough. I also find me personally if i neck it all before training i hypo during the workout.

so i mix the simple carbs which when i finish dieting will be malto purely because i have a kg of it there then i may try vitargo to see if any difference. plus bcaa around 15g,5g glut,some beta lananine and if im cycling creatine this will be in here as well. all in a shaker with a tocuh of robinsons sugar free and filled to the brim with water.

this will be sipped starting at home takes 10 mins to get to gym then finished towards end of workout. Ill then take another 20g protein from isolate/when whatever i have pwo. will then have a solid meal later.

this is all for when maintaining or gaining weight dieting is just isolate or actually some egg whites


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

God said:


> All interesting stuff. Sorry if this has already been mentioned but I didn't see it - dtlv: how long before your workout do you take your pre workout shake. Also when do you believe BCAA's would prove most useful?
> 
> As I'm trying to lose a bit of excess fat I will more than likely change my post workout shake after reading all this useful info.


It's a good idea to take the pre workout drink as close to the session as possible - have seen a study (only one mind you) that suggested that a pre workout drink taken an hour before the workout grants significantly less extra protein synthesis than when the same drink is immediately pre.

I don't like working out on a belly full of liquid before I start though, so drink abou half mine immediately pre. I then sip the rest over the first half of the workout... so thats about 200ml of liquid immediately before and another 200ml during.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Dtlv74 said:


> It's a good idea to take the pre workout drink as close to the session as possible - have seen a study (only one mind you) that suggested that a pre workout drink taken an hour before the workout grants significantly less extra protein synthesis than when the same drink is immediately pre.


What if the study was done on whole foods like some meat and potatoe?



Dtlv74 said:


> I don't like working out on a belly full of liquid before I start though


I dont like the full feeling with training either.

Remember guys it takes alot of blood to digest food, too big of meal cuts into your blood for other things when training.


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

hackskii said:


> What if the study was done on whole foods like some meat and potatoe?


There is a study on timings whole foods pre workout... I'll try and find it if you like. It concludes that three hours pre- is optimum, but I normally eat about two hours before as that's more convenient for me.


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## C19H28O2 (Oct 11, 2008)

hilly said:


> spot on info by dtlv as always.
> 
> My opinion is causing an insulin spike pre and during is causing ure body to push all the nutrients from the blood into the muscle tissue. This being IMO exactly what we want to happen when training for not only nutrients but also liquid volume into the muscle cells etc also better pump etc etc.
> 
> ...


I don't understand, are u on a keto diet?

you will not be going hypo if your glycogen stores are adequate; you are most likely experiencing fatigue from an insulin spike.. this is the main reason why many people discourage taking simple carbs before workouts


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## hilly (Jan 19, 2008)

C19H28O2 said:


> I don't understand, are u on a keto diet?
> 
> you will not be going hypo if your glycogen stores are adequate; you are most likely experiencing fatigue from an insulin spike.. this is the main reason why many people discourage taking simple carbs before workouts


a hypo is caused by blood sugars dropping. if i take in a certain amount of simple carbs while i train and finish the drink mid workout i hypo - increasei in sugar = insulin release plus workout causing sugars to drop + insulin causing blood sugar to drop = hypo. nothing to do with glycogen stores as far as im aware.

no i wasnt on keto or dieting


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

I would think that any feeling of fatigue is more likely to be blood diverted to the fuller stomach and away from the muscles after glugging the drink rather than insulin fatigue... intra workout fatigue caused by dietary stimulated insulin is, as far as I'm aware, not something observed experimentally in bouts of resistance training despite it being often talked about.

I've always thought that premature sensations of fatigue associated specifically with insulin (as opposed to fatigue experienced due to a hypoglycaemic state) were specific to insulin resistance in a diabetic or pre diabetic state where the target cells are not receiving adequate glucose.


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## C19H28O2 (Oct 11, 2008)

hilly said:


> a hypo is caused by blood sugars dropping. if i take in a certain amount of simple carbs while i train and finish the drink mid workout i hypo - increasei in sugar = insulin release plus workout causing sugars to drop + insulin causing blood sugar to drop = hypo. nothing to do with glycogen stores as far as im aware.
> 
> no i wasnt on keto or dieting


I thought hypo = hypoglycemia, i state which is rarely achieved (unless you have some sort of metabolic disorder) while glycogen is present in the body to be converted to glucose. Even while glycogen is depleted amino acids can be converted to glucose.. only athletes that have to worry about going hypo are extreme endurance athletes eg- marathon runners... or BB's that use insulin

i think we are defining 'hypo' differently mate


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## Lois_Lane (Jul 21, 2009)

Hilly you have some health problem if you are actually dropping your blood sugar low enough to go hypo while working out. Now if you are taking IGF or slin before your work out i understand but if not your body should not ever drop so low......


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## C19H28O2 (Oct 11, 2008)

i think this explains it perfectly

A diet high in refined sugars results in a quick absorption of

sugar into the bloodstream, producing a spike in blood sugar.

In turn insulin from the β cells of the pancreas is released,

which subsequently drives blood sugar down. A decrease in

blood sugar *causes symptoms of hypoglycemia*, resulting in

feelings of shakiness, heart palpitation, sweating or nausea, or

a combination thereof. In response to the rapid fall in blood

glucose, the adrenals are stimulated to secrete epinephrine

(adrenaline), which results in a successive rapid elevation in

blood glucose levels. *More specifically, glucocorticorids are*

*
released and the liver normalizes blood glucose levels by the*

*
release of stored glycogen*

as this points out high GI carbs will produce hypoglycemic symptoms but you will not become hypo because your has the means to normalize glucose plasma levels.

EDIT as con says if you are becoming hypo e.g - your body is unable to normalize itself then you have a problem


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

My friend is a diabetic, I thought it strange that when he checks his blood glucose before and after training he has lower blood sugar when just doing moderate cardio compared to resistance training.

I found that strange, but reading above the resistance training probably spikes adrenals and drives up blood sugar levels.

Sound about right guys?

I did find it strange as I thought he would have had lower blood sugars when using resistance training as I was pushing him pretty hard.


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

Sounds very right. That's what cortisol during training does - it breaks the muscle tissue down (most specifically muscle leucine) for gluconeogenesis... this is also why pre workout carbs and leucine are the two most effective supp's for attenuating muscle breakdown and supressing the cortisol as they take away part of the need for it.

The studies I've looked at are actually pretty clear - that during resistance training glucagon and cortisol between them keep blood sugar pretty stable, but long duration aerobic exercise without intra workout feedings can and does lead to a hypo state as the work demand exceeds the capacity of this blood sugar balancing mechanism.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Dtlv74 said:


> Sounds very right. That's what cortisol during training does - it breaks the muscle tissue down (most specifically muscle leucine) for gluconeogenesis... this is also why pre workout carbs and leucine are the two most effective supp's for attenuating muscle breakdown and supressing the cortisol as they take away part of the need for it.
> 
> The studies I've looked at are actually pretty clear - that during resistance training glucagon and cortisol between them keep blood sugar pretty stable, but long duration aerobic exercise without intra workout feedings can and does lead to a hypo state as the work demand exceeds the capacity of this blood sugar balancing mechanism.


Ah, I am starting to see the bigger picture here, that makes sense.

Thanks.


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## TH0R (Aug 15, 2007)

bump for later


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