# Upper/Lower body split.. VS.. Full body workout.. VS..Training split



## james_benjamin

*What sort of split do you use?*​
Upper/Lower body split 6031.58%Full body workout routine 4624.21%Muscle group training split8444.21%


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## james_benjamin

What sort of split do you think is best for gaining muscle and strength out of the above?


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## AngelsFall

Be interested to see this, if it gets more votes that is


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## Mingster

Depends how much training experience you have...

A beginner should gain more from a full body workout. An intermediate from the upper/lower split. An advanced trainer may well need a greater split to target various muscles. If I had to use one of these systems I would plump for the upper/lower split...


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## mal

Mingster said:


> Depends how much training experience you have...
> 
> A beginner should gain more from a full body workout. An intermediate from the upper/lower split. An advanced trainer may well need a greater split to target various muscles. If I had to use one of these systems I would plump for the upper/lower split...


totally agree with this...gotta say im loving the full body stuff atm once a week,its a long hard sesh and

perfect for me atm cruising..strength/ size still there.


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## Mingster

mal said:


> totally agree with this...gotta say im loving the full body stuff atm once a week,its a long hard sesh and
> 
> perfect for me atm cruising..strength/ size still there.


That's not to say that an experienced lifter couldn't gain from all three systems. I've been training 30 years and don't see the need for a multi-muscle group split. It all depends on your exercise choice and how you structure the workouts.

I would still recommend Push/Pull/Legs as the most beneficial system though...


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## martin brown

Most top level athletes use upper/lower or full body in all but bodybuilding.

Take from that what you will but alot of top athletes have more muscle than most amateur/wannbe bodybuilders


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## mal

Mingster said:


> That's not to say that an experienced lifter couldn't gain from all three systems. I've been training 30 years and don't see the need for a multi-muscle group split. It all depends on your exercise choice and how you structure the workouts.
> 
> I would still recommend Push/Pull/Legs as the most beneficial system though...


deffo....im superseting back and chest in the workouts,then sneaking in stuff like mill press,pully rows ect

so there alot of secondary stuff going on,takes a bit of working out,experience helps a bit too....

its costing me 3-50 a week too lol...so cheap training!


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## Foxy13

Going to change up my training from next week. Currently doing 5 days a week. 1- Chest, 2 - Quads & Hams 3 - Bis & Tris, 4 - Back, 5 - shoulders and calves.

From next week I hope to bring it down to 3 days a week. 1 - Chest and Arms, 2. Full legs, 3. Back and shoulders. See how that works for me.


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## lickatsplit

my best gains have been separating a 5 day split which changes every 6 weeks but I go in my lunch break so will do 5 days a week. Mine currently looks like this

Chest/triceps

back

Quads/Calves

Shoulders/Biceps

Hammys

but thats not to say that this will work for all.


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## JAS12

I do a 5 day split

Legs

Chest

Rest

Back

Shoulders

Arms

Rest


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## CharliePax

Been using the 'Muscle group training split' for near 5 years, have done a fair few fully body workouts in the past though especially just using bodyweight which i find really helps keep my pump for longer during and after the workout which is always good.


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## str4nger

currently using the following but may devise a new plan from next week

Back

chest

hams biceps

shoulders triceps

quads calves

This way indirect muscles get a rest day before being hit directly


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## simonthepieman

@Mingster beat be too it.

You do a 3 day full body routine until you can't gain linear increases. Then move to an upper/lower split.

Most natty's should never need to move to a full bodypart split to yield good results (you are more than welcome to do so if you like).

Muscle growth all but finishes in Natties withing 72 hours (and trails off after 48). So why wait a week?


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## simonthepieman

check this out. I wrote it for guys like you

http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/natural-bodybuilding/209040-train-right-level-you-you-dont-want-advanced-heres-why.html


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## L11

simonthepieman said:


> Muscle growth all but finishes in Natties withing 72 hours (and trails off after 48). So why wait a week?


Currently testing this theory, only problem is fitting all the exercises I like into a PPL routine.


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## simonthepieman

L11 said:


> Currently testing this theory, only problem is fitting all the exercises I like into a PPL routine.


Easy, 2 different PPLs 4-5 works outs a weeks rotating. Simples


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## dtlv

I agree with the consensus from the more experienced guys who have commented like @martin brown, @simonthepieman and @Mingster - for most natties there is little to be gained by splitting the body greater than an upper/lower or PPL, and that full body routines are generally vastly underrated.

My personal preference is for training in a day on/day off fashion, alternating upper and lower body sessions.


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## L11

simonthepieman said:


> Easy, 2 different PPLs 4-5 works outs a weeks rotating. Simples


Yea i plan on doing that but when my current routine is

Incline bench, dumbell flyes, flat bench, seated flyes decline bench

What would I do, a press exercise and a fly exercise? Then a different press and fly the next session?


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## tomo8

I used to do the body part split , doing 4 exercises per bodypart an 3-4 sets each. Then changed to an upper/lower, the hardest part was grtting my head round the fact i dont need to do 3 or 4 exercises each bodypart.

Once i did that i cant see me going back to a body part split, its brought my legs on hitting twice a week.

Might try a full body when i bulk next.


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## simonthepieman

dtlv said:


> I agree with the consensus from the more experienced guys who have commented like @martin brown, @simonthepieman and @Mingster - for most natties there is little to be gained by splitting the body greater than an upper/lower or PPL, and that full body routines are generally vastly underrated.
> 
> My personal preference is for training in a day on/day off fashion, alternating upper and lower body sessions.


Nice to hear warm words from such a knowledgable guy. 4 days out of 7 UL works wonders for me.



L11 said:


> Yea i plan on doing that but when my current routine is
> 
> Incline bench, dumbell flyes, flat bench, seated flyes decline bench
> 
> What would I do, a press exercise and a fly exercise? Then a different press and fly the next session?


 Spot on.

I'm currently doing Layne Nortons PHAT at the moment. Which is essentially a 5 day routine with 1 Upper power, One lower Power and then kind of a PPL all in the same week. I've had to lower the volume, but its great fun. It's not for beginners, but someone like you would be fine with your 'magic genetics' (just kidding mate)



tomo8 said:


> I used to do the body part split , doing 4 exercises per bodypart an 3-4 sets each. Then changed to an upper/lower, the hardest part was grtting my head round the fact i dont need to do 3 or 4 exercises each bodypart.
> 
> Once i did that i cant see me going back to a body part split, its brought my legs on hitting twice a week.
> 
> Might try a full body when i bulk next.


Yep, the volume thing people struggle with for upper, 2 push and 2 pull compoungs + some isolations is enough for most if you do it right.

For lower a heavy dead or squats, an assistance compound + some weak point training is plenty if you do it 2 x week


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## Robbie789

I'm currently doing an U/L split, gets my vote :thumbup1:


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## dtlv

simonthepieman said:


> Nice to hear warm words from such a knowledgable guy. 4 days out of 7 UL works wonders for me.
> 
> Spot on.
> 
> I'm currently doing Layne Nortons PHAT at the moment. Which is essentially a 5 day routine with 1 Upper power, One lower Power and then kind of a PPL all in the same week. I've had to lower the volume, but its great fun. It's not for beginners, but someone like you would be fine with your 'magic genetics' (just kidding mate)
> 
> k


No problem, buddy.

In respect of PHAT, I've looked at a few ideas for training that way, and drawn up several routines along similar lines but never actually got properly stuck into any of them.

What would you say are any obvious positives or negatives based on having trained in that fashion, other than having to drop the volume a little?


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## simonthepieman

dtlv said:


> No problem, buddy.
> 
> In respect of PHAT, I've looked at a few ideas for training that way, and drawn up several routines along similar lines but never actually got properly stuck into any of them.
> 
> What would you say are any obvious positives or negatives based on having trained in that fashion, other than having to drop the volume a little?


I like the mix of volume and strength training. It kind of appeals to 2 sides of my my brain which i find motivating. The problem I have had on strength routine is a the lack of variety. The variety you can squeeze into the volume days make the strength days more fun as you don't feel you are missing out.

The problems is it's 5 tough multi bodypart workouts and I would struggle to fit in cardio and/or sports alongside it. Certainly not as a natty


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## Davyy

I have always done isolation workouts.. And i barely see gains apart from more definition and slight size in the last 6 months.

So after joining this forum i see i should be doing full body exercises.

What type of routine do you do? Obviously all body but how many reps/sets and how many times a week?

Surely you dont hammer the same muscles day after day?

Thanks all.


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## B4PJS

Davyy said:


> I have always done isolation workouts.. And i barely see gains apart from more definition and slight size in the last 6 months.
> 
> So after joining this forum i see i should be doing full body exercises.
> 
> What type of routine do you do? Obviously all body but how many reps/sets and how many times a week?
> 
> Surely you dont hammer the same muscles day after day?
> 
> Thanks all.


Look into Starting Strength or Stronglifts. 3x5/5x5 using Squats, Deads, Bench, OHP and BB Rows. Can add in dips, pullups and press-ups for assistance if needed. Eat like a horse and you will grow doing this.


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## Davyy

B4PJS said:


> Look into Starting Strength or Stronglifts. 3x5/5x5 using Squats, Deads, Bench, OHP and BB Rows. Can add in dips, pullups and press-ups for assistance if needed. Eat like a horse and you will grow doing this.


So would i do that daily? Wouldnt that be too much on the same muscles?


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## B4PJS

Davyy said:


> So would i do that daily? Wouldnt that be too much on the same muscles?


3 x a week.

Workout A:

Squat

Bench

Dead

Workout B:

Squat

OHP

Row

Do all exercises 3x5 (Starting Strength) except for deads 1x5. Week one goes ABA, week 2 goes BAB. http://startingstrength.wikia.com/wiki/The_Starting_Strength_Novice/Beginner_Programs


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## Davyy

Thats great. Thanks mate! Hopefully will shape me up for holiday in September!


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## KickeyMouse

i have always done fbw or 2 day split... once i tried 3 day split and nearly puked because of the sudden volume change!!

i want to take advantage of protein synthesis so trying to hit every musclegroup around 2x per week. though that would work with 3 day split too!


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## MakkaL

Quick question for any of the experienced lads, for my chest day I go Decline bench > Incline bench > Flat bench Fly's > Cable crossovers > Sometimes machine fly's - Is this a good enough workout for chest, am I hitting it from every angle? Trying to build some mass to the poor ****!


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## Ricky12345

My routine ATM is working great dropping fat and gaining size and strength

Monday cardio chest triceps

Tuesday cardio back byc

Wensday cardio shoulders triceps

Thursday cardio back byc

Friday cardio chest triceps

Sat cardio abs

I feel the cardio is enough for legs just something I've played about with a while and I find is working for me


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## simonthepieman

Ricky12345 said:


> My routine ATM is working great dropping fat and gaining size and strength
> 
> Monday cardio chest triceps
> 
> Tuesday cardio back byc
> 
> Wensday cardio shoulders triceps
> 
> Thursday cardio back byc
> 
> Friday cardio chest triceps
> 
> Sat cardio abs
> 
> I feel the cardio is enough for legs just something I've played about with a while and I find is working for me


Oh. You're that guy


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## Ricky12345

simonthepieman said:


> Oh. You're that guy


?


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## tomo8

Think he means one of then people who doesnt train legs an says " i play footy/do cardio i dont need to train them"


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## simonthepieman

The johnny bravo routine


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## Mish

"my legs are already quite bulky from climbing the pull out gym frames in year 7"

Shut up and squat!!!


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## Robbie789

Ricky12345 said:


> My routine ATM is working great dropping fat and gaining size and strength
> 
> Monday cardio chest triceps
> 
> Tuesday cardio back byc
> 
> Wensday cardio shoulders triceps
> 
> Thursday cardio back byc
> 
> Friday cardio chest triceps
> 
> Sat cardio abs
> 
> I feel the cardio is enough for legs just something I've played about with a while and I find is working for me


I think you're doing to many leg work outs and not enough cardio


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## Justin Cider

Have a listen of this from JP, he goes in to upper lower split a little bit in


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## andyhuggins

Hey if the man doesnt need to train legs fair play. The stage will judge that.


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## nathanlowe

In regards to full body workouts, especially stronglifts. Looking at Bench Press, is this really enough.

Monday - Bench

Friday - Bench

Wednesday - Bench

Monday - Bench

Friday - Bench

In 3 weeks you do Bench Press 5 times at whatever rep range your doing (5x5, 3 x 8 etc)

I understand how you say muscle growth drops off after around 48 hours and stops after 72 hours in natties, but does that really look enough. The weeks your doing it twice you would think yeah, Bench Press twice a week will be sufficient, but on the weeks you only do it once ?

This is the case with every exercise in Stronglifts other then squats.

Are there other FBW that look to focus on the size aspects rather than strength ?


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## Monkey skeleton

nathanlowe said:


> In regards to full body workouts, especially stronglifts. Looking at Bench Press, is this really enough.
> 
> Monday - Bench
> 
> Friday - Bench
> 
> Wednesday - Bench
> 
> Monday - Bench
> 
> Friday - Bench
> 
> In 3 weeks you do Bench Press 5 times at whatever rep range your doing (5x5, 3 x 8 etc)
> 
> I understand how you say muscle growth drops off after around 48 hours and stops after 72 hours in natties, but does that really look enough. The weeks your doing it twice you would think yeah, Bench Press twice a week will be sufficient, but on the weeks you only do it once ?
> 
> This is the case with every exercise in Stronglifts other then squats.
> 
> Are there other FBW that look to focus on the size aspects rather than strength ?


You may not be benching 2-3 times a week but every session is a mini push/pull/legs all in one. If you want a 3 x week FBW for size then I can only suggest lowering the weights slightly and upping the rep's. or look at another routine.


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## GS8

Are full body workouts (stronglifts/SS) always the best option for a beginner? (Im currently training stronglifts)

Everybody seems to recommend them, but I've found that I struggle with chest/shoulders/arms in comparison to people training a similar period of time on training splits. I can squat a lot more than these people though, and my deadlift is decent (only in comparison), and usually better too.


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## JoePro

GS8 said:


> Are full body workouts (stronglifts/SS) always the best option for a beginner? (Im currently training stronglifts)
> 
> Everybody seems to recommend them, but I've found that I struggle with chest/shoulders/bicep in comparison to people training a similar period of time on training splits. I can squat a lot more than these people though, and my deadlift is decent (only in comparison) too.


Yes.


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## DaveW3000

IceCreamFitness 5x5 (google search) is a good routine, like the traditional 5x5 full body but with additional iso's and week point training. I can't rate it highly enough!


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## Squirrel

None of the above....PPL for me.


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## JonnyBoy81

GS8 said:


> Are full body workouts (stronglifts/SS) always the best option for a beginner? (Im currently training stronglifts)
> 
> Everybody seems to recommend them, but I've found that I struggle with chest/shoulders/arms in comparison to people training a similar period of time on training splits. I can squat a lot more than these people though, and my deadlift is decent (only in comparison), and usually better too.


Hi,

if your comparing yourself to other people it depends on wether or not these other people are naturally stronger, diet is better, genetics etc. dont compare yourself to others around you, too many differing factors come into play. trial and error will tell you best what works for you and what doesnt...

If you are weak in chest / shoulders, then yes 5x5 is the way to start. get used to doing the big compound movements and steadily increase the weight each week. you will soon notice a difference, as long as your diet is nailed to support strength/growth. your biceps will naturally gain strength as a result of doing heavy compound pull movements 

I also find that doing 5x5 or similar as a beginner you are setting yourself up to gain massive strength but also strengthen the weaker secondary muslce groups which will support your form when you come to advance onto a split and do more isolation work with heavier weights.

just my thoughts :whistling:


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## simonthepieman

I think i am going back to a upper lower on monday. Much more fun doing everything twice a week.


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## Justin Cider

simonthepieman said:


> I think i am going back to a upper lower on monday. Much more fun doing everything twice a week.


How do you do that? I saw a video that Jordan Peters advocates that, would that mean training like this;

Mon - Upper

Tue - Lower

Wed - Off

Thur - Off

Fri - Off

Sat - Upper

Sun - Lower

?


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## simonthepieman

Justin Cider said:


> How do you do that? I saw a video that Jordan Peters advocates that, would that mean training like this;
> 
> Mon - Upper
> 
> Tue - Lower
> 
> Wed - Off
> 
> Thur - Off
> 
> Fri - Off
> 
> Sat - Upper
> 
> Sun - Lower
> 
> ?


You'd end up training 4 days in a row like that. I will do Monday. Tuesday thurs sat or similar.


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## tomo8

Going back to upper/lower myself on monday after week or so off after ibiza.

Monday upper strength

Wednesday lower strength

Thursday upper hypertrophy

Saturday lower hypertrophy

Worked best for me, made up i found it on this site. Cheers


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## simonthepieman

tomo8 said:


> Going back to upper/lower myself on monday after week or so off after ibiza.
> 
> Monday upper strength
> 
> Wednesday lower strength
> 
> Thursday upper hypertrophy
> 
> Saturday lower hypertrophy
> 
> Worked best for me, made up i found it on this site. Cheers


this is the staple of what i have done over recent years.

Another way to mix it up is

Monday upper strength

Wednesday lower Hypertrophy

Thursday upper hypertrophy

Saturday lower Strength


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## tomo8

simonthepieman said:


> this is the staple of what i have done over recent years.
> 
> Another way to mix it up is
> 
> Monday upper strength
> 
> Wednesday lower Hypertrophy
> 
> Thursday upper hypertrophy
> 
> Saturday lower Strength


I know cheers, have thought of that but like to get the strength done earlier in the week when i feel stronger an have a days rest before each strength day.


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## simonthepieman

I'm kinda doing a PHAT set up again and i'm doing this

Mon: Upper power

Tues:Lower Volume

Thurs Upper vol 1

Friday: Lower power

Sat: upper vol 2

with the Thurs and sat being different each week. ie this week i did arms on Thurs and chest and shoulders the next one. The following week i might do a push/pull and the next i might do back and shoulders and chest and arms. I find this gives variety as well as structure.


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## tomo8

Did my own circuit last sunday an got a ****ing shock!!

Only did 30 secs skipping

25 press ups

20 burpees

20 mountain climbers

Did 4 rounds an was blowing out me bullet hole! So ige changed to x3 fullbody workouts mon/wed/fri.

An circuit/HIT/complex on 2 other days. Think im having a mid life crisis at 30!

Want to be fitter

Letting my hair grow ( had it shaved since was 14)

Getting a tattoo


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## heavyduty11

A one on/one off split is very beneficial to nattys. I do half the body in one workout, chest/back/delts/abs and the other have in another, legs/arms. I only do 2 exercises for all body parts except for back which gets 3 exercises and I mostly keep to compound movements with only a small handful of isolation movements. I do 1 to 2 warm up sets followed by 2-3 work sets to near failure and reduce the weight by 5-10 pounds after my first work set if needed. Each workout only takes around 45 to 50 mins each.


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## #13

As long as you are using good basic compounds as your basis and giving the muscle groups enough time to adequately recover then there won't be that much difference, the problem is a lot of people train too much thinking more is better thus missing one of the most important factors for growth, REST.


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## Mogy

james_benjamin said:


> What sort of split do you think is best for gaining muscle and strength out of the above?


Personally it's muscle group training for me. I feel if you want to work a muscle group intensively then you're gonna end up spending too long in the gym trying to work your whole body properly.


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## ableton

push/pull/legs all the way!


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## simonthepieman

Mogy said:


> Personally it's muscle group training for me. I feel if you want to work a muscle group intensively then you're gonna end up spending too long in the gym trying to work your whole body properly.


So if I squatted twice a week and dead lifted too I wouldn't be working my legs properly


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## Mogy

simonthepieman said:


> So if I squatted twice a week and dead lifted too I wouldn't be working my legs properly


You misunderstood what I was saying;

I meant if you're doing full body workouts with the intention of working the whole of you're body (each separate muscle group) intensively then this is going to take far too long each workout.

If you're implying that squatting and dead lifting is enough to work your whole body to the required level then you're wrong. Sure the main groups hit by those exercises but not the secondary muscles trained.


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## simonthepieman

Mogy said:


> You misunderstood what I was saying;
> 
> I meant if you're doing full body workouts with the intention of working the whole of you're body (each separate muscle group) intensively then this is going to take far too long each workout.
> 
> If you're implying that squatting and dead lifting is enough to work your whole body to the required level then you're wrong. Sure the main groups hit by those exercises but not the secondary muscles trained.


whats the 'required level'


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## Mogy

simonthepieman said:


> whats the 'required level'


How far is a piece of string?

Point is, you won't be training your chest at all. Won't be training shoulders, triceps, I'd argue biceps aren't trained enough either. Therefore it's not enough to 'squat and deadlift'.


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## simonthepieman

Mogy said:


> How far is a piece of string?
> 
> Point is, you won't be training your chest at all. Won't be training shoulders, triceps, I'd argue biceps aren't trained enough either. Therefore it's not enough to 'squat and deadlift'.


I was referring to legs with Squats and dead lifts, so i think we might have confused each other.

But you are saying that a full body routine, say like billstarrs/madcow 5 x 5 won't train the body to the required level?

(weirdly enough you then say you don't know what the required level is too)


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## Mogy

simonthepieman said:


> I was referring to legs with Squats and dead lifts, so i think we might have confused each other.
> 
> But you are saying that a full body routine, say like billstarrs/madcow 5 x 5 won't train the body to the required level?
> 
> (weirdly enough you then say you don't know what the required level is too)


Okay you can't define 'required level' because it is different for everyone. Seeing as it's different for everyone, it's safe to assume everyone applies their own level of intensity that they aim to achieve when they're training to this question. Seeing as I aim to have worked each muscle group that I'm training really intensively *I stated that training my whole body would take too long for a single session.*



Mogy said:


> Personally it's muscle group training for me. I feel if you want to work a muscle group intensively then you're gonna end up spending too long in the gym trying to work your whole body properly.


I never stated that full body training couldn't reach the required level (for myself), instead I stated (after misunderstanding you it seems) that dead lifting and squatting as a full body workout is not enough; something I believe most would agree with.



Mogy said:


> Therefore it's not enough to 'squat and deadlift'.


Is that clear enough now? I'm not looking to purposely argue.


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## simonthepieman

Mogy said:


> Okay you can't define 'required level' because it is different for everyone. Seeing as it's different for everyone, it's safe to assume everyone applies their own level of intensity that they aim to achieve when they're training to this question. Seeing as I aim to have worked each muscle group that I'm training really intensively *I stated that training my whole body would take too long for a single session.*
> 
> I never stated that full body training couldn't reach the required level (for myself), instead I stated (after misunderstanding you it seems) that dead lifting and squatting as a full body workout is not enough; something I believe most would agree with.
> 
> Is that clear enough now? I'm not looking to purposely argue.


Not to be an internet grammar nazi, but your uses if tenses is misleading.

By using the term 'you' it assumed you are responding to a 3rd party or the masses rather than yourself in isolation.

Full body routines have been proven for decades and for most non-advanced natties respond better to frequency with moderate volume than low frequency and high volume.

Of course different things work for different people at different stages of their lifting, but prescribing for the masses based solely on individual experience is a unreliable doctorate


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## f4tb0y

I recently came back to the gym after years off and due to work commitments only have a very short daily training window - between 7.00 and 7.30 so have had to structure things differently to how I used to, what I came up with is :

Day 1 - Squat, Calf Raises, Leg Curls

Day 2 - Deadlift, Barbell Rows, Pull downs, Seated curls

Day 3 - Bench Press, Shoulder Press, Tricep pushdowns

Then repeat, Monday to Friday. This means each bodypart gets trained 5 times every 3 weeks so just over every fourth day.

For each exercise two warmup sets at 1/2 then 3/4 of working set weight ten one all out set at the working weight between 8 and 12 reps, if I hit 12 then up the weight next workout.

To say the least the results have been phenomenal, Since I started in January I've been able add at least one rep on every exercise every day. At the same time I've been dieting and have so far lost 1 1/2 stone - still the reps / weight keep climbing. Shouldn't be happening but it is :thumb:

I am now convinced that all the years training I've done before I was permanently overtrained (being natty) and being having so little time and only doing 3 or 4 working sets per day has finally bought my training down to a level where I can actually gain rather just constantly break down. The joke is the gym was only supposed to be a bit of exercise whilst dieting but I'm making the fastest gains I ever have.

One proviso though, on my worksets I train HARD, every workset is to failure, if that means going down in the squat and not coming back up then so be it (I squat in a smith machine because of this). I see people around me doing set after set of exercise bit never, ever going to failure, then they come back next week and do the same again and wonder why nothing changes - I think if you want to make progress you have to force it and you just can't do that set after set, day after day (especially if natty) as you're brain subconsciously shuts you down before failure as your CNS is shot.

Trying not to preach but I'm really blown away with how well things are going and maybe it can help someone else.


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## nWo

I think the rewards of a bodypart split can only be truly reaped when on gear. I believe a good upper/lower or something similar to be most optimal for natty trainees with some experience, with full-body a close 2nd.


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## DaveW3000

I said:


> I think the rewards of a bodypart split can only be truly reaped when on gear. I believe a good upper/lower or something similar to be most optimal for natty trainees with some experience' date=' with full-body a close 2nd.[/quote']
> 
> Completely agree with this although I'm more a fan of full body training


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## nWo

DaveW3000 said:


> Completely agree with this although I'm more a fan of full body training


Fair play mate, I mean you can always say this or that approach is likely most optimal, but there's definitely no one style that will be best for everyone


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## Sway12

Why do you say a split wouldn't work for a natural? Doesn't make any sense to me.


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## DaveW3000

Sway12 said:


> Why do you say a split wouldn't work for a natural? Doesn't make any sense to me.


It's not that it won't work. It will work and has for many. But the frequency is too low to make optimal progress and the volume is usually far higher than it needs to be.


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## IronJohnDoe

I do

chest/biceps/triceps

legs/abs

back/shoulders

resting the other days

I use to do a 5 days muscle split, but honestly due to the high frequency I think as well it may be really worth only while on gear, also when natty with the above split I get plenty of recovery and it's easier to find the time to workout while working full time.

but when I cycle 5 days split as it feels like superman


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## raymondo85

is upper/lower or push/pull/legs routine to be done once or twice per week if your natty? i usually do full body three times a week with a heavy low rep day a high rep low weighy day and a balance between the two day but finding as the weights going up its getting a bit too much legs in particular so looking to change it up


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## simonthepieman

raymondo85 said:


> is upper/lower or push/pull/legs routine to be done once or twice per week if your natty? i usually do full body three times a week with a heavy low rep day a high rep low weighy day and a balance between the two day but finding as the weights going up its getting a bit too much legs in particular so looking to change it up


So long as hit each body part twice a week you'll be fine. So 4x week on either


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## raymondo85

simonthepieman said:


> So long as hit each body part twice a week you'll be fine. So 4x week on either


so would this be more beneficial?

mon upper body

tues lower

weds rest

thurs upper body

fri lower

That way im hammering all parts twice a week.


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## simonthepieman

raymondo85 said:


> so would this be more beneficial?
> 
> mon upper body
> 
> tues lower
> 
> weds rest
> 
> thurs upper body
> 
> fri lower
> 
> That way im hammering all parts twice a week.


Perfect. I prefer to do lower before upper as squatting tired is a pain and doing lower on Monday means no queuing for the bench on Monday 

Try a power day and a volume day. Nice way to get steady progression when switching from full body


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## raymondo85

simonthepieman said:


> Perfect. I prefer to do lower before upper as squatting tired is a pain and doing lower on Monday means no queuing for the bench on Monday
> 
> Try a power day and a volume day. Nice way to get steady progression when switching from full body


sounds like a plan i think it will help my lower back too which is still a bit suspect from an injury last year which i could have avoided by switching to a from a stronglifts to 4 day split. The bent over barbell row ruined me for around 5 months ????


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## silver

ive just swapped my training from 5 to 3 days a week

it was:

arms

chest

legs

back

shoulders

rest

rest

now its:

arms and delts

rest

chest and back

rest

legs

rest

rest


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## Angerfist

I use P/P/L twice a week. I like working out and the 2x a week frequency is good for me. I keep it simple and focus on lower reps with compounds and adding weight each week. Isolations to further burn the muscles out. I believe as long as you do the basics right (big compounds, progressive overload, diet and focus in the gym) you're already 90% there.


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## rsd147

PPL for me. Not too much volume but i feel it the next day


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## 4NT5

I am going to give upper/lower split over 4 days a shot as there has been a good few suggestions in this thread.


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## harryalmighty

simonthepieman said:


> Perfect. I prefer to do lower before upper as squatting tired is a pain and doing lower on Monday means no queuing for the bench on Monday
> 
> Try a power day and a volume day. Nice way to get steady progression when switching from full body


exactly what i do with my U/L. monday and tuesday is 4-6 reps and thursday and friday is anywhere between 10-15 reps.


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## musclemate

I change my routine and style of training every month to keep shocking my body.


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## 4NT5

simonthepieman said:


> I think i am going back to a upper lower on monday. Much more fun doing everything twice a week.


I was planning an U/L routine but the only 4 days I can train are in a row, mon-thurs.

How would u structure a workout if you only had four days in a row?

Would you use the four days for UL or just do a 3 day a week PPL?

Cheers


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## simonthepieman

amurphy said:


> I was planning an U/L routine but the only 4 days I can train are in a row, mon-thurs.
> 
> How would u structure a workout if you only had four days in a row?


probably exactly the same and give it a run.

If thats too much a PPL might be a better option


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## 4NT5

simonthepieman said:


> probably exactly the same and give it a run.
> 
> If thats too much a PPL might be a better option


Cheers.


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## dtlv

amurphy said:


> I was planning an U/L routine but the only 4 days I can train are in a row, mon-thurs.
> 
> How would u structure a workout if you only had four days in a row?
> 
> Would you use the four days for UL or just do a 3 day a week PPL?
> 
> Cheers


I remember a few years back I had an annoying shift pattern with a job I had and the only days I could train were mon-thu - so for a couple of months I did:

mon - lower

tue - upper

wed - cardio/abs/calves/forearms/neck/rotator cuffs/rear delts

thu - full body

works pretty well with low-moderate volume.


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## Justin Cider

Currently doing a upper/lower split 4 days a week


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## BIG JOSHUANT

Mon - Legs - Compound

Tues - Chest/Back

Wed - Legs - Machines

Thurs - Rest

Fri - Shoulders & Arms

Sat - Deadlift again & core/abs

Sun - Rest

Change it around every few months.


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## Bulldozer

Only ever trained full body or upper/lower split.


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## 4NT5

dtlv said:


> I remember a few years back I had an annoying shift pattern with a job I had and the only days I could train were mon-thu - so for a couple of months I did:
> 
> mon - lower
> 
> tue - upper
> 
> wed - cardio/abs/calves/forearms/neck/rotator cuffs/rear delts
> 
> thu - full body
> 
> works pretty well with low-moderate volume.


I like ther idea of that workout.

What rep range did you use on U/L days, say 3x8 and on full body 3x5 or opposite way about?

Just back from holiday and feel fresh again.


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## dtlv

amurphy said:


> I like ther idea of that workout.
> 
> What rep range did you use on U/L days, say 3x8 and on full body 3x5 or opposite way about?
> 
> Just back from holiday and feel fresh again.


I'm trying to cast my mind back... it was definitely lower reps on the full body day, and a little more volume on the split days using higher reps. Can kind of remember the exercises but reps not exactly. Was something like this though (is what I'd do now anyway):

*Lower*

Front Squats 3x8

RDL's 3x12

Hack Squats 2x12

Leg Curls 2x8

Lunges 2x12

*
Upper*

Bench Press 3x8

Bentover Row 3x8

Upright Row 3x8

Closegrip Press 2x12

Barbell Curl 2x12

*Abs/Calves/Forearms/Neck/RC's*

Crunches

Leg Raises 2x max (bodyweight)

Standing Calf Raise 2x max (bodyweight)

Reverse Curl 3x12

Wrist Curl 3x12

Neck Strap 3x12

Rotator Cuff Supersets 3x12

*Full Body*

ATG Squats 3x6

Weighted Dips 3x6

Weighted Chin ups 3x6

Deadlifts 3x4

Hang Clean to Push Press 3x6


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## 4NT5

dtlv said:


> I'm trying to cast my mind back... it was definitely lower reps on the full body day, and a little more volume on the split days using higher reps. Can kind of remember the exercises but reps not exactly. Was something like this though (is what I'd do now anyway):
> 
> *Lower*
> 
> Front Squats 3x8
> 
> RDL's 3x12
> 
> Hack Squats 2x12
> 
> Leg Curls 2x8
> 
> Lunges 2x12
> 
> *
> Upper*
> 
> Bench Press 3x8
> 
> Bentover Row 3x8
> 
> Upright Row 3x8
> 
> Closegrip Press 2x12
> 
> Barbell Curl 2x12
> 
> *Abs/Calves/Forearms/Neck/RC's*
> 
> Crunches
> 
> Leg Raises 2x max (bodyweight)
> 
> Standing Calf Raise 2x max (bodyweight)
> 
> Reverse Curl 3x12
> 
> Wrist Curl 3x12
> 
> Neck Strap 3x12
> 
> Rotator Cuff Supersets 3x12
> 
> *Full Body*
> 
> ATG Squats 3x6
> 
> Weighted Dips 3x6
> 
> Weighted Chin ups 3x6
> 
> Deadlifts 3x4
> 
> Hang Clean to Push Press 3x6


Thanks for the break down. Workout looks good!


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## dtlv

amurphy said:


> Thanks for the break down. Workout looks good!


It was fun to do. I also forgot to put 3 sets of bent laterals on the odds and ends day btw


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## big_jim_87

To the op

Not read any replies so sorry if this has been said.

Imo there is more then one way to skin a cat...

They all work depending how well you structure them.

Only way to know what you like best or what works best is try them all...

Always mix things up bud... that's how you find what you like and what works


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## John.

Full body, but it depends how advanced you are and how many drugs you are on!


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## kingoblack

Upper/ lower for me and gaining well.


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## pooledaniel

Interesting thread.

I pretty much always train bodypart split (6 days), hitting everything once a week. On the whole I'd say it's worked pretty well for me, but hadn't really thought of trying PPL or U/L splits since the early days. Would be interesting to see how it worked...

For PPL, do people generally train 3 times a week? Or would it be feasible to double up and do PPL rest PPL etc?


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## Ultrasonic

pooledaniel said:


> For PPL, do people generally train 3 times a week? Or would it be feasible to double up and do PPL rest PPL etc?


The standard approach would be PPL three days per week. From reading this thread I think the usual view is that you switch to this approach once more frequent training (e.g. upper/lower with 4 training days per week, or whole body three times per week) is no longer working. If you have only ever trained using a body part split perhaps give the upper/lower route a try? Ideally mixing up rep ranges across sessions.


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## Fragjuice

I do a full body workout twice a week, as I don't have much free time to get to the gym, I spend 140 mins in the gym each time, and have 3 days off inbetween, it does the job for me, and keeps the wife off my back lol


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## alan1971

theres many routines you can try, find one that works for you, i'd deffo recommned a 5x5.

last year i did 5x5 stronglift routine,

i was doing

Workout A:

Squat 5x5

Bench 5x5

Dead 5x5

Dips 3x8

Workout B:

Squat 5x5

OHP 5x5

Row 5x5

so training

A on a monday

B on a tueday

wednesday day off,

A again on thursday,

B on again friday

sat/sun day off

and in ten months i went from 13st 10 upto 15st 4 and that was training naturally, i found my appetite when up coz of the demand, then i injured my back. , and its taken a good year for my back to sort itself out, so in the mean time i've been doing isolation, but going to jump back on the 5x5's again as i really enjoyed it.


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## swoliosis

I do a 4 on 1 off split

Legs,chest,back,shoulders


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## Astaxanthin

What training routine that works the best will never be explained by upper/lower, ppl, phat etc. The best way for you to train, is the way you enjoy and like the most. Going in to the gym with lack of motivation, will eventually never bring you to the end goal. However, sometimes we need to incorporrate things we find less attractive, to actually keep the progression. But at the first place, pick a routine you ENJOY, use a smart exercise choice, and find the total volume that fits your routine, and your recovery!

Personally I enjoy training as often as possible, I enjoy squats and bench press, and I enjoy volume!

What I came up with was an upper/lower routine, where I use variations of heavy work one day (1-5 reps) and lighter load more volume another day (8-20 reps, drop sets, Myoreps etc.)

Off days when I prefer. Always listen to the body, and I have by doing so, been able to train up to 6 times pr.week

My main goal: progressive overload, and results will come by them self!


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## JohhnyC

i have messed around with all sorts of routines over the 20 years and for me full body is definitely not optimal. Cannot push so hard and you are just drained after a legs work out

The one body part a week about right for me however you must must drain these muscle down, not just 3 x 10 with last rep at failure. If I incorporate drop sets I need 5 days rest. Have tried less days between rests many times and the strength is just not there. On gear its a different story

I only do 3 days a week as other 2 are cardio and abs. Too many men forget that muscle growth (in what we all like) is not needed for optimal health. Good cardio is! However, life would be boring drinking green tea and poncing around doing pilates

After I lose a bit of a gut i have developed I may go back to 4 day (1 cardio) and try a ULUL split.


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## GrantMorgan

For strength i would definitely say a full bodyworkout 5 times a week with low volume, low reps- heavy weight with the obvious big lifts. Worked very well for me in the strength area.boyo


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## Awt

i have just started upper lower well 3 weeks ago, and im enjoying it

first two sessions are heavy compound movements 3-5 reps with some 5x5 thrown in

second two are higher reps,supersets,giants sets etc


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## FuqOutDaWhey

Another upper lower convert here


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## nunrgguy

Upper /lower atm, up the frequency, lower the volume. Motivator was lots of tendon pain.

Sat Uppper

Sun Lower

Mon Cardio

Tue Upper

Wed Lower

Thurs Cardio

Fri Streching


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## Dzezy

Total body or 5x5, madcow, texas method..


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