# where does the line get drawn



## DiggyV (May 6, 2011)

Guys

Curiosity has the better of me. When I first started out about 25 years ago, it was AAS or natty and that was it, it was all pretty clear. Since then and after a 20 year break - started by a calf tear and completed by my marriage and kids - things have radically moved on as far as the tech and science behind training and supplementation goes.

So where does the line now get drawn?

Do prohormones fall outside natty territory, given they effectively get converted to AAS in the body? Also the fact thet they can currently be legally puchased.

What about using IOC banned substances such as Ephedrine or Pseudoepedrine?

Interested in peoples views on what now defines 'Natural'.

Cheers

D


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## 2004mark (Oct 26, 2013)

It all depends on what 'line' you are referring to. If you are competing in any sport (bb'ing, powerlifting, lawn bowls) then the line will be clearly stated by the relevant federation. If not competing then I'm not fussed what anyone decides to call themselves tbh.


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## RickMiller (Aug 21, 2009)

DiggyV said:


> Guys
> 
> Curiosity has the better of me. When I first started out about 25 years ago, it was AAS or natty and that was it, it was all pretty clear. Since then and after a 20 year break - started by a calf tear and completed by my marriage and kids - things have radically moved on as far as the tech and science behind training and supplementation goes.
> 
> ...


I think you'll struggle personally to draw a definitive line, you could start with any WADA banned substance (which will cover most of the substances you refer to), however others would go as far as to argue even lowly vitamins and minerals is an 'edge'.

My personal thought is that anyone that uses a substance defined as ergogenic should not be given the privilege of 'natural' status.


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## rocky666 (Jul 9, 2009)

so if a mult-vitamin was invented that had the same effects as steroids would the general public stop slating bodybuilders. Or would the same pot bellied lazy 40 a day smoking binge drinking lager lout soon find some other reason to slate bodybuilders. Its all hypocrisy in my opinion.


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## Fatstuff (Mar 2, 2010)

rocky666 said:


> so if a mult-vitamin was invented that had the same effects as steroids would the general public stop slating bodybuilders. Or would the same pot bellied lazy 40 a day smoking binge drinking lager lout soon find some other reason to slate bodybuilders. Its all hypocrisy in my opinion.


we would be called narcissistic posers, but then again i fall into the mixed category of pot bellied non smoking, binge drinking, cardio avoiding, healthy eating, binge cheat day kfc munching narcissistic bodybuilding poser


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## SK-XO (Aug 6, 2009)

UKStrength said:


> I think you'll struggle personally to draw a definitive line, you could start with any WADA banned substance (which will cover most of the substances you refer to), however others would go as far as to argue even lowly vitamins and minerals is an 'edge'.
> 
> My personal thought is that anyone that uses a substance defined as ergogenic should not be given the privilege of 'natural' status.


But then you get ergogenic aides nutritional like bcaa's etc? Does that count? or supplements in general?

People say that your not natty if you use steroids etc

but others will say your also not natty if using fat burners, creatine, mass gainers etc etc

Never ending battle.


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## chaosmatt (May 14, 2011)

Im going to be competing as a natty for my first comp to see where i am at, however i think i read in the rules somewhere that to be classed as "natty" you musnt have used for 5 years but surely they have still gained an advantage at some point from their use that has stayed with them.

However on topic i believe that like everyone else has said a personal line will vary, and unless you are competing it doesnt matter. I do however feel testing at natty shows needs to be more rigerous.

My personal "defenition" would be someone who has not taken anything synthetic knowingly to gain a performace advantage at any point or something along those lines lol.


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## DiggyV (May 6, 2011)

2004mark said:


> If you are competing in any sport (bb'ing, powerlifting, lawn bowls) then the line will be clearly stated by the relevant federation.


Good point - checked on the British Natural Bodybuilders Federation, their current list is:

*ANABOLIC STEROIDS.* Including but not limited to bolasterone, boldenone, chioroxomesterone (dyhdrochlormethyltesterone), clostebol, fluoxymesterone, mesterolone, methandienone, methyltestosterone, nandrolone, norethandrolone, oxandrolone, oxymetholone, stanozolol, testosterone and all other related compounds.

*TESTOSTERONE *(injections, patches, gels) in any form or for any reason.

*TESTOSTERONE/EPITESTOSTERONE RATIO.* The T/E ratio is used to measure the presence of exogenous testosterone, or illicit elevation of testosterone levels. A T/E ratio in excess of 6/1 is ruled as positive, no matter what the cause. Note: Should the use of any substance cause an elevated T/E ratio in excess of the 6/1 limit, the athlete will be ruled as positive (failure).

*GROWTH HORMONES (PHARMACEUTICAL HGH, HCG and any other related compounds). *Oral, spray or sublingual GH compounds are banned effective January 1, 2001.

* HORMONES AND ALL PRECURSORS & METABOLITES, DERIVATIVES AND RELATED COMPOUNDS.* The use of any hormone (injectable, oral, sublingual or otherwise) for bodybuilding purposes - including insulin - is strictly prohibited. All hormonal precursors (DHEA, androstenedione; 19-norandrostenedione; androstenediol; 5-AD; 7-KetoDHEA; androsteneTRIONE; 17-androdione; etc.) are banned effective January 1, 2000. Additional hormonal supplements ( 6-OXO; 6-OXO-androstenetrione; 2a,17a-dimethyl-17ß-hydroxy-5a-androstan-3-one; 3, 17-keto-etiochol-triene; 1,4,6-androstatriene-3,17-dione; 3,17-dihydroxy-delta-5-etiocholane-7-one (A7-D); 3-Alpha (5a-androstane-3a,17b-diol); etc.) have been identified as of January 1, 2004, but are banned effective January 1, 2000. Prescription Thyroid hormone medication when used for bodybuilding purposes is banned. Pro-Steroids (1-Test), etc. are banned effective January 1, 2000. The presence of any banned substance in the urine (i.e., nandrolone, etc.), no matter how it arrived there, is ruled as a positive (failure). BE SURE TO CHECK ALL INGREDIENTS LISTS OF SUPPLEMENTS BEFORE USE!

*PRESCRIPTION DIURETICS.* Any and all prescription weight-loss substances and diuretics, used for bodybuilding purposes, even when physician-prescribed, are banned by the BNBF.

*EPHEDRINE, EPHEDRA AND ALL RELATED COMPOUNDS* are banned effective July 1, 2004.

*PSYCHOMOTOR STIMULANTS.*

*MUSCLE IMPLANTS OF ANY KIND.*

*CHEMICALS/DRUGS FOR THE PURPOSE OF DECEIVING OR PASSING THE POLYGRAPH OR URINE TEST.*

*CLENBUTEROL AND GHB (since 1992).*

* ANY ILLEGAL OR ILLICIT BODYBUILDING DRUG OR SUBSTANCE AS DECREED BY U.S. GOVERNMENT AGENCIES.*

*ANY FDA-BANNED SUBSTANCE, EXCEPT IF SPECIFICALLY OTHERWISE INDICATED.*

* ANY IOC-BANNED SUBSTANCE, EXCEPT IF SPECIFICALLY OTHERWISE INDICATED.*

A pretty inclusive list, which as it includes Ephedrine / and related compounds will have the normal cold remedy implications that a lot may miss...


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## lolik (Apr 24, 2010)

there is nothing natural about bodybuilding


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## rocky666 (Jul 9, 2009)

but how can you prove that someone hasnt taken say winstrol and stopped 2 weeks before the comp.


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## valleymentality (Feb 17, 2011)

So with reference to the band list where would ghrp-6, and cjc1295 all the gh releasing peptides fall. Banned yet?


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## SK-XO (Aug 6, 2009)

^Comes under gh iirc.

What I find a joke is this whole be natural for 5 years crap, wtf? just to basically help out some guy at the top stay at the top because he used 5 years ago, it's a joke tbh. If a natural comp, should be natural and never used anything period. Also there silly banning things randomly like boditronics red mist and jack3d iirc just for examples. In that case why not ban everything aside from food and water lol?


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## Matt 1 (May 8, 2010)

IMO injectable steroids and oral are un-natty (is that even a word?)

However im a noob on the subject


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## rocky666 (Jul 9, 2009)

i agree its becoming a joke that kalo toure is being branded a drugs cheat facing a 2 year ban for taking geranium oil probably in a preworkout drink. Its becoming a joke


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## grantinerfe1436114737 (Oct 29, 2010)

how do they test for growth hormone??


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## rocky666 (Jul 9, 2009)

exactly that rubgy league player that committed suicide for hgh. When they interviewed a tester. He said the player was unlucky cos there was only a 5 day window to test for hgh use. So are you telling me hes the only rugby player who takes hgh?


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## LunaticSamurai (May 19, 2009)

For me to class someone as 100% natural, i would have to go back in time to the days that the only supplement people used were food.

Creatine or anything else that is "performance enhancing" takes you out of the "natural" class and into the "assisted" class.


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## Justin Cider (Jul 18, 2010)

**** me, this is like Mythbusters!


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## Jalapa (Mar 18, 2010)

Weed is banned. I don't really get how this could offer any unfair advantage? It just alienates folks making them think F' it might as well take other stuff if the rules are that stupid.


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## martin brown (Dec 31, 2008)

Jalapa said:


> Weed is banned. I don't really get how this could offer any unfair advantage? It just alienates folks making them think F' it might as well take other stuff if the* rules are that stupid*.


Thats a rather strange statement. I think the banning of DRUGS in sport is due to morality as much as gaining a competitive advantage. I also think the "line" as referred to is often a case of one's own moral stance especially if they don't nor plan to compete.

Most legal prohormones/designer steroids are equally dangerous and more harmful in many cases as their illegal/banned equivalents. Yet some people will happily take them and consdier themselevs natural/not cheating/whatever 

Some people class using supplements as cheating.

Who cares as long as your comfortable doing what you do, and when competing everyone plays by the same rules.


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## Jalapa (Mar 18, 2010)

Well morality relative. I understand it could be considered morally unfair to gain a competative advantage through the use of substances. But if a substance does not give a competative advantage on what moral grounds is it banned?


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## martin brown (Dec 31, 2008)

Jalapa said:


> Well morality relative. I understand it could be considered morally unfair to gain a competative advantage through the use of substances. But if a substance does not give a competative advantage on what moral grounds is it banned?


There is a chance it good be used to gain advantage in some sports. Think snooker, darts etc where beta blockers and the likes were used to stop nerves?


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## Jalapa (Mar 18, 2010)

Yea fair enough. Maybe it could be used to stimulate appetite


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## Andrew Jacks (Sep 29, 2010)

DiggyV said:


> Do prohormones fall outside natty territory, given they effectively get converted to AAS in the body? Also the fact thet they can currently be legally puchased.
> 
> What about using IOC banned substances such as Ephedrine or Pseudoepedrine?
> 
> ...


I think people that need to ask what falls into the natural category are the type of people open to experimenting with harder compounds, of course PH are not natural, I also know some will say what about ZMA or any supplement and there we have the answer supplement, naturals take supplements to ensure they get every nutrient required. No diet has perfect nutrient profile, everyone needs to supplement something if they which to optimise body composition


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## a.notherguy (Nov 17, 2008)

imo a natty is someone who tinkers with his natural hormone levels and a non natty is someone who introduces artificial hormones into their body


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## retro-mental (Dec 2, 2010)

I know **** all about steroids. I consider my self natty as whey and creatine are the only things i have used to enhance by lifting. Its not that i am against steroids its just that i train at home so know no one to get them off. i have looked into pro hormones but still know nothing

I think its abit like if you get high on prescription drugs its ok but if you use illegal drugs its not. Its all to p.c for my liking


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## retro-mental (Dec 2, 2010)

LunaticSamurai said:


> For me to class someone as 100% natural, i would have to go back in time to the days that the only supplement people used were food.
> 
> Creatine or anything else that is "performance enhancing" takes you out of the "natural" class and into the "assisted" class.


i am not sure i would go with that because certine foods are high in creatine so do you then say someone eating oysters and the likes are not natural but i do sort of agree that its not a natural product as such. Its a concentrate of a natural

i think dr brooks kubik was 1005 natural, didnt even have whey protein but dont quote me on that


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## maverick1888 (Feb 9, 2011)

Dont give a fvck al take what i want when ever, whos right whos rong who made up the fvckin rules anyway some skinny tosser wae a phd in a dont think thats right fvck them,if roids are banned in comp how did the guys get that big, on chicken n fish dont think so,what they mean is they are banned at the time u compete but any other time knock your self out.


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## kernowgee (Jan 30, 2011)

Many people claim to be natural when they have clearly cheated and deservedly receive bans and shame, in the old days the word natural meant a person not taking illegal supplementation, but pro-hormones have smudged that line, in all honesty only the most corrupt of minds would consider themselves natural when taking PH's. Due to the ease with which people can cheat it makes it almost impossible for anyone to be certain who is natural and who is not, meaning the only person who knows the truth is you.


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## dingosteve (Apr 26, 2009)

kernowgee said:


> Many people claim to be natural when they have clearly cheated and deservedly receive bans and shame, in the old days the word natural meant a person not taking illegal supplementation, but pro-hormones have smudged that line, in all honesty only the most corrupt of minds would consider themselves natural when taking PH's. Due to the ease with which people can cheat it makes it almost impossible for anyone to be certain who is natural and who is not, meaning the only person who knows the truth is you.


ah well you its gets all philosophical now because the context you use the term the only person who knows the truth is you suggests it means very little, but if we talk about right n wrong, we are taught that the only person who knows the truth is you is the most important fact. So is it we train natural for others approval or we want to know within otherself we dont it naturally?


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## DJay (Feb 6, 2011)

For me natual means exactly as the word sugests. If you are consumeing a synthetic substance such as whey protein, creatine, AAS, insulin, GH, Ephedrine, Clen then you are not a natural bodybuilder.


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## Mingster (Mar 25, 2011)

Unless you're competing against others you drawn your own line consistent with your moral/ethical beliefs.


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