# I need to get " scientific "



## Milky (Nov 30, 2008)

RIGHT, firstly l am not lazy, not really stupid either but the thought of working out macro's etc makes my head hurt.

Thing is l know l need to do it now to make the massive difference l want to make.

So how the hell do l do it, l need it explaining in VERY SIMPLE terms. I am looking at a long term goal of August but l know l can make a massive difference with some serious discipline within a couple of months.

Is there an on line app l can use ?

Do l need to check the ingredients in EVERYTHING l eat ?

Help me guys....


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## Zangief (Aug 5, 2010)

Go to http://caloriecount.about.com/ gives you the macros for every type of food you can think of.


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## steelicarus (Jul 24, 2011)

I use daily burn. Really easy to use and really motivates me to make sure that I get the correct number of cals.


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## Ginger Ben (Oct 5, 2010)

Fitday is good to track what you're eating.

Swole.me is useful for breaking down your daily cals and macros into some really simple meal ideas that you can then use as a base for your actual meals.

As for working out your cals I'm not sure how exactly you do it but somebody will.

Useful macro information is protein is 4kcals a gram, carbs are 4 too and fat is 9 (or near as makes no difference)

You may know all this but if not I hope it's helpful


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## Milky (Nov 30, 2008)

Zangief said:


> Go to http://caloriecount.about.com/ gives you the macros for every type of food you can think of.


Cheers mate, so now l have that info how do l work out how much l should be eating daily etc ?


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## flinty90 (Jul 1, 2010)

well mily i didnt realise i was going to scare you into a competition that much that even you would start worrying about macros lol....


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## Milky (Nov 30, 2008)

flinty90 said:


> well mily i didnt realise i was going to scare you into a competition that much that even you would start worrying about macros lol....


Mate l really want to sort my sh*t out and not afraid to admit it...

I know the food basics BUT l think if l go the extra mile l can make a massive difference...


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## flinty90 (Jul 1, 2010)

Milky said:


> Cheers mate, so now l have that info how do l work out how much l should be eating daily etc ?


your weight mate rule of thumb

calories per day should be your weight in pounds

x 10 or 11 if your cutting

x 12 or 13 if maintaining

x 14 or 15 if bulking

so presuming you want to bulk top end bulk and you weigh 200 pounds

thats 200 x 15 = calorie intake per day


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## Zangief (Aug 5, 2010)

What are your goals Milky?


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## Hendrix (Sep 16, 2009)

steelicarus said:


> I use daily burn. Really easy to use and really motivates me to make sure that I get the correct number of cals.


I use DailyBurn also for working out macro's. It has pretty much all foods saved in the database, even Protein powders. Makes it really easy mate.


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## Muscle (Oct 10, 2010)

MyFitnessPal is the best! it also has a iphone app where you can scan the barcode then you enter the weight the amount you're eating and it does it all for you :clap:


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## Milky (Nov 30, 2008)

Ok so 2600 cals will be my starting block then..

What ratio should these cals be ?


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## Milky (Nov 30, 2008)

Zangief said:


> What are your goals Milky?


Just to lean up royally, maintain some size and get some serious definition..


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## smaj210 (Aug 1, 2009)

40:40:20 is a good start

4 cal per protein and carbs

9 cal fat


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## Tassotti (Feb 27, 2011)

That sounds low Milky..Are you cutting?

WWhat's your current weight


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## Zangief (Aug 5, 2010)

Here's a great article about cutting whilst keeping/building muscle by Layne Norton worth a read mate!

Pre-Contest Dieting: Obviously the most pertinent issue regarding pre-contest preparation is the diet aspect of preparation. It is not enough to just clean up what you eat, it must be far more drastic than that.

When you see the winner of a bodybuilding competition onstage, rest assured they tracked their calories, carbs, proteins, fats, and never missed meals.

If you want to do well in a bodybuilding competition, you should expect to do nothing less. Before I begin talking about a proper pre-contest diet, we need to examine exactly how long a person should diet for a contest. The first thing that should be done is an "assessment" of your body. Look yourself over and be honest about your faults, strengths, and about how long you think it will take for you to get into stage shape.

Importance Of Slow Dieting

Keep in mind that if you think you have around 25 lbs of fat to lose, you are not going to be able to lose it all in 10 weeks and keep all of your lean body mass. Aim to diet as slowly as possible. The severity of your calorie deficit will, to a large extent, determine how much muscle you retain/lose.

Short periods of high severity dieting (more than 1000 kcals per day below maintenance level) are not too muscle wasting, but prolonging them for more than a few days will certainly cause one to lose a good deal of muscle.

As a general rule of thumb, losing 1 lb of bodyweight per week will allow one to retain most of their muscle mass. One can probably lose up to 1.5 lbs per week and retain most, if not all of their muscle mass (provided their training and nutrition are optimized).

Dieting Too Fast?

If one tries to push their body to lose more than 2 lbs per week for any length of time, then they will begin to experience quite a bit of muscle loss. It is for this reason that I usually try to give myself enough time so that I only need to lose 1-1.5 lbs per week at most. If one is naturally ectomorphic (has an easy time losing weight) however, they may want to diet for a shorter period of time, and I would recommend a time period of 11-15 weeks. If one is naturally endomorphic (has a hard time losing weight), then they may want to lengthen their dieting time to 16-22 weeks. If this is the first time that you have ever done a contest then you would want to also give yourself an extra week as you will probably experience a hitch at some point along the way.

Diet Information

The diet that one follows for their contest will be the single most important determining factor of how well they will place in the competition. A person can have all the mass in the world but if they do not come in razor sharp on contest day, then the mass will mean little. Judges almost always go for conditioning over size. To design a proper diet one should give themselves adequate time to lose the necessary body fat to achieve that aforementioned shredded look.

Being said, what kind of diet is optimal for a person to follow?

Well The Diet Should Have Three Main Goals:

1. Spare as much muscle mass as possible.

2. Lose as much fat as possible.

3. Not cause the person to lose intensity in the weight room.

Unfortunately, these goals all seem to contradict each other.

When the body is in a starved (calorie deficit) state, muscle loss can occur although a calorie deficit is required to lose fat. This calorie deficit will also cause one to feel less energetic. To get around the negatives, there are small adjustments and little tricks to aid in the accomplishment of the positives.

Before discussing the diet, it is important to discuss the three macronutrients and their roles.

Protein

Protein is probably the single most important macronutrient for the purposes of maintaining muscle on a diet. Dietary protein is hydrolyzed (broken down) into it's constitutive amino acids during digestion. These amino acids are released into the bloodstream where they may then be taken up by cells (usually muscle cells). Dietary protein is also very important as amino acid availability is the single most important variable for protein synthesis to occur. This means that protein synthesis increases in a linear fashion (directly proportional to plasma amino acid concentrations) until the plasma amino concentrations are approximately twice that of normal plasma concentrations. To generalize for the less scientifically inclined, ingesting enough dietary protein is very important for someone who is looking to gain muscle, or maintain it while dieting. Dietary protein spares muscle by helping increase protein synthesis (and thus induce net muscle gain) and by acting as a muscle sparing substrate as it can be used for glucogensis (synthesis of glucose). Dietary protein however, is not as muscle sparing as are carbohydrates when used as a substrate for glucose synthesis. Protein is also a very "expensive" molecule for your body to use as energy.

The body would much rather store amino acids than oxidize them as protein oxidation yields less net ATP produced per amino acid when compared to fat or carbohydrates. Therefore, it can be stated that dietary protein has a thermogenic effect on the body.

Carbohydrates

Carbohydrates have probably gotten the worst reputation of the macronutrients due to the ketogenic dieting rave. Ketogenic dieting refers to reducing carbohydrate intake to practically nothing, while simultaneously raising fat and protein intake. With little glucose for the brain to utilize for energy, the body will begin producing ketones. Ketones are by-products of fat oxidation and the brain can use ketones for energy. This does indeed have a potent fat burning effect, as insulin levels will be severely reduced due to lack of carbohydrate intake. Low insulin levels correlate with high rates of fat oxidation. Indeed, the ketogenic diet may be the single best way to lose the maximum amount of body fat in the shortest amount of time. However, if you will quickly refer to our goals during a pre contest diet you will notice that maintaining muscle is number one on our list, with fat loss second. If one has not properly scheduled enough time to lose body fat and they are in need of drastic measures, then using a ketogenic diet may be their only choice in order to become contest-ready in time. Unfortunately, they will not maintain an optimum amount of muscle mass.

For those who have given themselves ample time to prepare, I do not suggest using a ketogenic diet. Instead, I recommend reducing carbohydrates, but keeping them high enough to possess the muscle sparing benefits of carbohydrates while still losing body fat.

Importance Of Carbs While Cutting

There are several main reasons that I recommend retaining carbohydrates.

The first reason being that carbohydrates are much more muscle sparing than fats during times of stress when glucose becomes a primary source of fuel (i.e. anaerobic exercise, injury, infection, etc). The muscle sparing effects of carbohydrates occur via several different mechanisms. When the body is in a low energy state, it may try to produce energy by converting amino acids to glucose. Carbohydrates prevent this since they can be easily broken down (and converted if need be) to glucose molecules. Carbohydrates then spare dietary protein from oxidation and these proteins can be stored rather than oxidized.Carbohydrates are also very muscle sparing during exercise. When one lifts heavy weights, the primary pathway that is used to produce ATP (cellular energy currency) is the anaerobic or glycolytic pathway (as the name implies this pathway operates in the absence of oxygen). The only substrate for this pathway is glucose, which can be obtained from dietary carbohydrates or by breaking down glycogen (the cell's stored form of glucose).

If one is on a ketogenic or extreme "low carb" diet however, the body will need to utilize another source to synthesize glucose from.

Since glycogen levels are low on a ketogenic diet, the body will actually convert amino acids to glucose and this glucose will be used in the anaerobic pathway to produce ATP. These amino acids will come from dietary protein, amino acids from the cellular amino acid pool, and from muscle tissue. The latter situation is where one would experience muscle loss. Dietary protein would be sacrificed for ATP production and the depleted amino acid pool would not bode well for protein synthesis rates, thus causing a net loss in muscle mass.

Muscle Sparing Carbohydrates

Carbohydrates are also muscle sparing because they are a cause of insulin release. Now I know your thinking, "but Layne, you just said in your intro that low insulin levels were great for fat burning!?"

Yes, you are correct. I did indeed say that low insulin levels are good for fat burning. Insulin inhibits lipolytic (fat burning) activity and must be kept low if one wishes to burn a maximal amount of fat. However, the pesky re-occurring theme of maintaining muscle prevents us from totally excluding insulin from our pre-contest diet ****nal, as insulin happens to be one of the most anabolic/anti-catabolic hormones in the body. Insulin binding to the cell membrane causes all sorts of reactions in your body that are beneficial to maintaining and gaining muscle tissue. Insulin inhibits protein breakdown and amino acid oxidation, thus promoting muscle maintenance or gain. Insulin also has an antagonist (inhibitory) affect with regards to several catabolic hormones, including cortisol. Cortisol is a hormone that is released during times of stress such as dieting, lifting, injury, etc. Cortisol produces glucose by breaking down proteins, including muscle tissue. Cortisol is the primary catabolic hormone that is released when one lifts or does any kind of activity.

Insulin release inhibits the activity of cortisol by preventing its release from the pancreas, thus sparing muscle tissue from cortisol's catabolic effects.

Furthermore, it is interesting to note that long-term exposure of cells to ketones (i.e., ketogenic diet) retard insulin-induced activation of the insulin surface receptor.

This causes one to become extremely sensitive to carbohydrates when they begin ingesting them again after they finish dieting and could lead to an undesired post diet fat gain. Carbohydrates act to maintain muscle mass while dieting by maintaining cellular osmotic pressure and cell volume. Cell size is an indicator of the "state" that the body is in. When cells are of large volume, it signals that the body is in a fed state. When cell volume is low it signals that the body is in a starved state. Without delving too far into the science behind this, trust me when I say that you would like your body to think it is in a fed state as this will increase the levels of fat burning hormones and anabolic hormones. Cell size also indicates the anabolic state of the cell. When cell volume is high, protein synthesis rates increase. If cell volume drops, then protein synthesis levels drop. It is easy to infer we would like to maintain cell volume, especially when dieting.

The problem with extreme low carbohydrate diets is they cause severe reduction in cell size.

The Glycogen Factor

The body stores carbohydrates inside cells as glycogen. For every gram of glycogen stored, the body stores around 2.7 g of water. Therefore, cells that have greater glycogen levels will also have more volume. One can see then how low carbohydrate diets severely decrease cell size due to severe glycogen depletion. Concluding, carbohydrates help maintain muscle by increasing cell volume. One more issue to consider is performance. If you refer to the goals of a pre-contest diet, you will see that number three maintains that you must keep a high level of intensity in the gym. This is important for several reasons. If performance begins to suffer, then a person will undoubtedly lose strength. This could lead to a subsequent loss of muscle mass due to decreased stimulation from a decreased training overload. Therefore, it is important that performance be kept at an optimal level. Low glycogen levels have been associated with increased fatigue and decreased performance in athletes (endurance, strength, power output, etc).

The Research

Several studies have shown that consuming adequate amounts of carbohydrates before, during, and after exercise may attenuate the increased fatigue and increase performance.

It is worth noting that one such study concluded that "the rate of recovery is coupled with the rate of muscle glycogen replenishment and suggests that recovery supplements should be consumed to optimize muscle glycogen synthesis as well as fluid replacement."

It can therefore be concluded that an adequate supply of carbohydrates is crucial for maintaining performance and for proper muscle recovery. Fats are very important molecules and are considered essential to ones survival. Indeed, fats are involved in many of the body's processes which are required for survival. Several key functions of fats in the human body are for energy storage and hormone synthesis. They are the body's preferred source of stored energy and the most efficient molecule for the body to burn. (in terms of energy yield per gram, 9kcals/gram). The main hormone that fats impact which we are concerned with is testosterone. When calories are restricted, testosterone levels will drop, as the body will suppress its release of anabolic hormones in order to spare nutrients for oxidation (energy production).

This makes perfect sense: the body senses it is "starving" and thus it represses it's anabolic hormones to prevent nutrients from being used to increase tissue mass and spares them for energy production.

Fat Intake & Testosterone

That's the first hit against testosterone production. Drastically lowering your fat intake is another hit against testosterone production since fatty acids are the substrates for cholesterol synthesis and therefore are also the substrates for testosterone synthesis (cholesterol is converted to testosterone, among other things). Unfortunately, fats are also easily stored as adipose tissue (body fat) So there must be some type of compromise between ingesting enough fat for hormone maintenance (and subsequent muscle maintenance) and reducing fat intake enough to decrease body fat. There has been some research done on the effects of dietary fat on testosterone. The answer to, "how much dietary fat is optimal" is difficult to decipher, as there are major differences in the designs of the performed studies.

This makes it difficult to compare them to each other and come up with a "standard" answer.

Several studies concluded that diets low in fat (under 15% of total calories) significantly decreased testosterone levels while diets higher in fat (above 30% of total calories) increased serum testosterone levels. Rather than continuing with this discussion I will provide a link to an article which covers the subject quite nicely. To simplify everything that I have said, it seems that one should not lower fat below 15% of daily calories unless they would like to face extreme testosterone deficiencies. Likewise, one should not increase fat to say 40% in order to increase testosterone. Although fat increases testosterone to a degree, it is important to remember that testosterone is only a small piece of the larger puzzle. There are many other hormones and factors involved in building muscle other than just testosterone. By increasing fat to extremely high levels, there will be less "space" for carbohydrates and protein, both of which are very important for aforementioned reasons.

As with most things in life, moderation is key.

In order to keep hormone production regular and fat burning in high gear, while allowing enough "space" to supply adequate carbohydrates and protein for muscle sparing purposes I do not recommend increasing fat above 30% of daily calories. In order to come up with macronutrient totals for a diet, it is necessary to assess how many lbs per week one will need to lose to be in contest shape. This is not an exact science, however we can still get a reasonable experience-based estimate. Here are some example calculations so that you may have an understanding of how to go about doing this. For example, we have a subject who is a mesomorph weighing 200 lbs and has 13% bodyfat. Since 3-4% is considered "stage condition", that means the subject will need to drop roughly 10% body fat which equates to about 20 lbs. To recapitulate, I do not recommend dropping weight any faster than 1-1.5 lbs per week. Since 20 weeks is a long time to diet, let's have the subject lose about 1.5 lbs per week.

I recommend that one lose approximately 80% of their weight due to calorie restriction and 20% of their weight due to cardio (someone who is ectomorphic should do less cardio, while someone with an endomorphic build should do more cardio).

To lose 1.2 lbs (80%) per week from diet, there must be a 600 kcal per day deficit from diet. To lose the other .3 lbs (20%) per week from cardio, one should perform 3 cardio sessions per week, which burn 350 kcals per session. The best way to determine one's caloric intake required to lose fat at a certain rate is to chart calorie intake for a period of a few weeks and try to determine at what level the subject does not gain weight (this is the caloric baseline).

For those who do not exercise this method, a rough estimate can be made using the following strategy.

Utilize The Subsequent Equations To Find Your Caloric Baseline:

* Mesomorphs - bodyweight x 15.

* Ectomorphs - bodyweight x 16-17.

* Endomorphs - bodyweight x 13-14.

So for our subject; 200 X 15 = 3000 kcals per day. This is the subject's caloric baseline (roughly). So if he wishes to lose 1.2 lbs per week from dieting (caloric restriction of 600 kcals per day); 3000 - 600 = 2400 kcals per day.

Meal Frequency Is As Follows:

* Mesomorphs - eat every 2.5 - 3.5 hours.

* Ectomorphs - eat every 2 - 3 hours.

* Endomorphs - eat every 3.5 - 5 hours.

Protein Intake

The "golden standard" protein intake for a bodybuilder is around 1 g/lb of bodyweight. This will need to be increased while dieting. Protein is a thermogenic macronutrient key in sparing muscle tissue when in a caloric deficit (see aforementioned section on protein).

I recommend the following protein intakes for different body types:

* Mesomorphs - 1.2g/lb - 1.3g/lb.

* Ectomorphs - 1.4g/lb - 1.6g/lb.

* Endomorphs - 1.4g/lb - 1.5g/lb.*

For our subject, this equates to a protein intake of around 240-260 g protein per day. Let's go 'middle of the road' and set the subjects protein intake at 250 g protein per day. This means 1000 kcals have been devoted to protein intake, leaving us with 1400 kcals for fat and carbohydrate intake.

Fat Intake

Fat intakes are as follows:

* Mesomorphs - 17% - 23% of total calories.

* Ectomophs - 24%-28% of total calories.

* Endomorphs - 23%-28% of total calories (fat intake is increased in order to reduce carbohydrate intake, as endomorphs may have a difficult time losing fat with higher carbohydrate intakes). For our subject, this equates to about 400 - 550 kcal from fat per day (45g - 60g fat per day) Once again, I prefer the 'middle of the road' approach and would set his fat intake at around 55g fat per day (495 kcals/day from fat) .

Carbohydrate Intake

Whatever calories that have not been allotted to protein and fat intake will make up total daily carbohydrate intake. For our subject in question, this leaves 2400 (1000 + 495) = 905 kcals per day for carbohydrate intake. This equates to 225g of carbohydrates per day.

I recommend a higher protein intake for endomorph's while dieting because of the thermogenic effect of a higher protein intake and increased protein turnover, not because they need more protein to maintain muscle mass.

Re-Feeding

One should also incorporate re-feeds into their diet plan. Re-feeds help boost a hormone called leptin, which is the mother of all fat burning hormones. As one diets, leptin levels drop in an attempt by the body to spare body fat. Periodic, proper re-feeding can raise leptin levels and help one continue to burn fat an optimum rate. A person who is lean will need to re-feed more frequently than someone who has a higher body fat percentage. For those who are below 10%, it is probably a wise idea to incorporate re-feeds two times per week.

For those people who are in the 10-15% range, re-feeding every 6-12 days will probably be adequate, for those who are above 15%, re-feeding will probably not need to be done more than once every week to two weeks. Obviously as one loses body fat they will need to re-feed more often.

Re-Feed Days Should Be Planned As Follows:

* Re-feed on the day you work your worst body part(s) as re-feeding will not only raise leptin, but be quite anabolic.

* Keep fat as low as possible during re-feed days as high insulin levels will increase dietary fat transport into adipose tissue. In addition dietary fat has little to no impact on leptin levels.

* Reduce protein intake to 1 g/lb bodyweight.

* Consume as little fructose as possible as fructose does not have an impact on leptin levels.

* Increase calories to maintenance level (or above if you are an ectomorph) and increase carbs by at least 50-100% (endo's stay on the low end, while ecto's should stay on the high end) over normal diet levels.

Nutrient Timing

As previously discussed before, carbohydrates cause insulin release, which is very muscle sparing, but also very anti-lipolytic. It is therefore important that we construct a diet so that we intersperse long periods of low insulin levels in order to maximize lipolysis, coupled with short periods of high insulin levels to protect muscle when it is at the greatest risk of catabolism. There are essentially two crucial times during the day when muscle tissue is at the greatest risk of catabolism. The most crucial time is during your workout. As many of you already know, working out is actually catabolic.

When one is in a calorie deficit, the catabolic effect of working out is enhanced, as the body will attempt to raise low glucose levels by de-aminating amino acids and converting them to glucose.

Cortisol

One of the main hormones that control this action is cortisol. Unfortunately this is quite catabolic as some of these amino acids may come from muscle tissue (See carbohydrates section). It is crucial that one consumes carbohydrates before exercise for several reasons.

* Dietary carbohydrates will provide fuel for the anaerobic pathway, and spare muscle tissue from being converted to glucose for fuel.

* Dietary carbohydrates will cause the release of insulin, which blocks the release of cortisol from the pancreas.

* Dietary carbohydrates will increase muscle glycogen levels which will improve performance and decrease fatigue.

I suggest one consume 35% of their total daily carbohydrates in a meal 1.5 to 2 hours before their workout as this will allow the carbohydrates adequate time to be digested and enter the bloodstream. I also suggest consuming a shake composed of 30-40g of whey protein along with dextrose or maltodextrin during their workout.

The carbohydrates in the shake should account for about 20% of one's total daily carbohydrate intake.

This Shake Will Have Several Benefits:

* Spare muscle glycogen and increase performance.

* Spare muscle tissue.

* Maintain a constant release of insulin, therefore inhibiting cortisol release.

* The continuous ingestion of carbohydrates will ensure that adequate substrate is available for the glycolytic pathway.

It is also a wise idea to consume a post workout meal composed of whole food, low GI carbohydrate sources (although one may consume another protein shake if they feel so inclined) about 30 minutes after finishing the in workout shake.

This low GI carbohydrate should contain about 25% of your total daily carbohydrates and will help stabilize blood sugar levels. You see, dextrose causes a very large insulin spike, and actually can cause insulin to be over secreted, when insulin is over secreted, blood sugar levels will drop rapidly as insulin disposes of the glucose into the tissues and one may even begin to experience hypoglycemia (low blood sugar). Low blood sugar may lead one to experience an increase in hunger. A lower GI carbohydrate and protein meal post workout will help counteract this negative effect by stabilizing blood sugar levels. The other time of day when one should consume a meal containing carbohydrates is upon rising. Waking up is actually a stressful time on the body and in an effort to "ready itself" the body releases several catabolic hormones in order to produce energy for the fasted person. The main two hormones released are cortisol and glucogen both of which can be catabolic to muscle tissue.

Consuming a carbohydrate meal will retard the release of these catabolic hormones and spare muscle tissue. It will also make you feel better by providing fuel for your brain to run on.

There is some anecdotal evidence that suggests consuming a meal containing carbohydrates may also help suppress hunger later in the day. I suggest consuming 15% of your daily carbohydrate intake at this meal in the form of low GI carbohydrates. The remaining 5% of your total daily carbohydrates should come from veggies throughout the day such as salad, broccoli, peas, etc. If you happen to workout after breakfast, merely combine breakfast and your pre workout meal. Thus 35% + 15% = 50% of daily carbohydrate intake should be in pre workout/breakfast meal. During these high carbohydrate meals one should aim to keep fat as low as possible. High insulin levels increases fatty acid transport into adipose tissue, so it is a good idea to keep your fat low during times of high insulin.

You should spread your remaining fat intake evenly over the rest of your low carbohydrate meals. Protein intake should be spread fairly evenly over all of your meals.

The Following Is A List Of Acceptable Protein, Carbohydrate, & Fat Sources While Dieting:

Protein:

* Tuna or most any fish.

* Cottage cheese.

* Eggs (especially the whites).

* Chicken breast (boneless skinless).

* Turkey breast (boneless skinless).

* Lean beef.

* Low fat or no fat cheese.

* Low fat pork.

* Milk protein isolate.

* Whey protein.

* Soy protein.

* Essentially most any other source of protein so long as it is low in saturated fat and carbohydrates.

Carbohydrates:

* Sweet potatoes.

* Oat meal, oat bran, oat bran cereal (i.e. cheerios).

* Bran cereal.

* Brown rice.

* Wheat bread (try to limit to 2 slices per day).

* Beans.

* Low fat popcorn (low fat butter spray makes this a delicacy).

* Fruits (limit to 2-3 servings per day).

* Malto dextrin (during workout).

* Dextrose (during workout)

* Vegetables.

* Stay away from refined grains and anything that says "enriched" or "high fructose corn syrup" on the label!

Fat:

* Omega 3 capsules (i.e. fish oil capsules).

* Flax seed oil.

* Primrose oil.

* Borage oil.

* Olive oil.

* Nuts (limit to 1 serving per day), peanut butter (as long as it does not contain hydrogenated oils).

* Egg yolks.

* Fish (salmon especially).

* All other fat should come as a by-product of your carbohydrate and protein intake.

References

* 1. Nygren J, Nair KS. "Differential regulation of protein dynamics in splanchnic and skeletal muscle beds by insulin and amino acids in healthy human subjects." Diabetes 2003 Jun;52(6):1377-85

* 2. Garrett, Reginald H. and Charles M. Grisham. Biochemistry 2nd Edition.

Saunders College Publishing. United States: 1999.

* 3. Hart et al. "Efficacy of a high-carbohydrate diet in catabolic illness." Crit Care Med 2001 Jul;29(7):1318-24

* 4. Yokoo et al. "Distinct effects of ketone bodies on down-regulation of cell surface insulin receptor and insulin receptor substrate-1 phosphorylation in adrenal chromaffin cells." J Pharmacol Exp Ther 2003 Mar;304(3):994-1002

* 5. Meijer AJ. "Amino acids as regulators and components of nonproteinogenic pathways." J Nutr 2003 Jun;133(6):2057S-62S

* 6. Schliess F, Haussinger D. "Cell volume and insulin signaling." Int Rev Cytol 2003;225:187-228

* 7. Chen et al. "Osmotic shock inhibits insulin signaling by maintaining Akt/protein kinase B in an inactive dephosphorylated state." Mol Cell Biol 1999 Jul;19(7):4684-94

* 8. Brosnan JT. "Comments on metabolic needs for glucose and the role of gluconeogenesis." Eur J Clin Nutr 1999 Apr;53 Suppl 1:S107-11

* 9. Shephard RJ, Leatt P. "Carbohydrate and fluid needs of the soccer player." Sports Med 1987 May-Jun;4(3):164-76

* 10. Tsintzas, O.K., Williams C., Boobis, L.Greenhaff, P. "Carbohydrate ingestion and single muscle fiber glycogen metabolism during prolonged running in man." Journal of Applied Physiology 1996; 81 (2) : 801 - 809.

* 11. Rockwell MS, Rankin JW, Dixon H. "Effects of muscle glycogen on performance of repeated sprints and mechanisms of fatigue." . Int J Sport Nutr Exerc Metab 2003 Mar;13(1):1-14

* 12. Haff GG, Lehmkuhl MJ, McCoy LB, Stone MH. "Carbohydrate supplementation and resistance training" J Strength Cond Res 2003 Feb;17(1):187-96

* 13. Karelis AD, Peronnet F, Gardiner PF. "Glucose infusion attenuates muscle fatigue in rat plantaris muscle during prolonged indirect stimulation in situ." Exp Physiol 2002 Sep;87(5):585-92

* 14. Williams MB, Raven PB, Fogt DL, Ivy JL. "Effects of recovery beverages on glycogen restoration and endurance exercise performance." J Strength Cond Res 2003 Feb;17(1):12-9

* 15. The Journal of Nutrition, Sept 2000 v130 i9 p2356 "High Dietary Fat Intake Increases Renal Cyst Disease Progression in Han:SPRD-cy Rats. " Shobana Jayapalan; M. Hossein Saboorian; Jeff W. Edmunds; Harold M. Aukema.

* 16. American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, Dec 1996 v64 n6 p850(6) "Effects of dietary fat and fiber on plasma and urine androgens and estrogens in men: a controlled feeding study." Joanne F. Dorgan; Joseph T. Judd; Christopher Longcope; Charles Brown; Arthur Schatzkin; Beverly A. Clevidence; William S. Campbell; Padmanabhan P. Nair; Charlene Franz; Lisa Kahle; Philip R. Taylor.

* 17. Abe T, Kawakami Y, Sugita M, Fukunaga T. "Relationship between training frequency and subcutaneous and visceral fat in women." Med Sci Sports Exerc 1997 Dec;29(12):1549-53


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## flinty90 (Jul 1, 2010)

Milky said:


> Ok so 2600 cals will be my starting block then..
> 
> What ratio should these cals be ?


om mate so now you have to work out how much protein you need that to be and carbs and fats

a lot of people will try a 40 /40 /20 split mate protein / carbs/fat

if you want to lower carbs then up your fats and protein

i would suggest that you keep your protein high at 40- 45 %

and then just 35 % carbs

20 % fats and see how you go mate for next 4 weeks


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## flinty90 (Jul 1, 2010)

if you find your getting tired and your workouts are suffering slightly increase carbs until you can sustain a day at work and workouts mate. if you find your not dropping much fat then reduce carbs and fats slightly but always keep protein high ish , you wont lose muscle as you will be taking gear mate so dont worry too much about dropping cals too much either as long as your training end energy dont suffer your good to go and will losse fat


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## DeadlyCoobra (Oct 16, 2011)

ok so if you start at 2600 cals then u would work it out like this:

Protein = 4cal/g

Carbs = 4cal/g

Fat = 9cal/g

and if your running your macros, lets say P:40 C:35 F:25

so 40% of your 2600 cals needs to be protein (2600 x 0.4), 40% of 2600 is 1040 cals, and protein is 4cals/g so that makes 260g (1040/4) protein a day

35% carbs so 910 cals, again 4cals/g for carbs so 227.5g

25% fat 650 cals, 9cals/g for fat so 72.2g

sorry if this is really partonising im sure you know your stuff, from ur avi it sure looks like you do! but i like to work it out rather than rely on a logger on a website, figured even if u dont follow these exact macros or calories at least you know how to do it. I dare say u made need more than 2600 cals but give it a go and see how you respond!

All the best mate good luck!


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## Milky (Nov 30, 2008)

DeadlyCoobra said:


> ok so if you start at 2600 cals then u would work it out like this:
> 
> Protein = 4cal/g
> 
> ...


Mate l have REFUSED for yrs to do this so it all helps, cheers.


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## DeadlyCoobra (Oct 16, 2011)

Milky said:


> Mate l have REFUSED for yrs to do this so it all helps, cheers.


yeah tbh it only really matters when you cut, bulking is easy you aint growing you eat more lol. Ive tended to just keep going on a clean(ish) bulk but not be too serious then if it gets a bit out of hand fat wise then just do a bit of a cut. Rather do this than really dirty bulk then a harsh cut, slow and steady. Am looking forward to seeing your results


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## Milky (Nov 30, 2008)

Ok...

so we have established l need 45 % protein, 35 % carb, 20 % fats..

Give me some examples of how to acheive this...


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## flinty90 (Jul 1, 2010)

Milky said:


> Ok...
> 
> so we have established l need 45 % protein, 35 % carb, 20 % fats..
> 
> Give me some examples of how to acheive this...


haha now you sound like a newb to the site asking for diet advice X


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## flinty90 (Jul 1, 2010)

Milky said:


> Ok...
> 
> so we have established l need 45 % protein, 35 % carb, 20 % fats..
> 
> Give me some examples of how to acheive this...


yoar better off working it out as calories mate, and then split them calories into each meal

so protein would be your chicken breast or meat then your carbs, the potato or rice, pasta bread, then your fats red meat is fine anyway, but buts and olive oil fish buter cheese cream milk , you know the score....


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## big silver back (Jan 17, 2009)

I never ever count macro's mate, i'll make it simple. 6 meals a day, eat every 3hrs, 45-50g protein, same amount of clean carbs per meal and a teaspoon of peanut butter with every meal for fats. 6lts water and your away. It you wanna cut add some fasted cardio and as your bodyfat comes down increase the daily cardio by 10 mins every month but keep your food intake the same. Dont forget a cheat meal once a week for your metabolic rate and that should do the job.


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## Milky (Nov 30, 2008)

flinty90 said:


> haha now you sound like a newb to the site asking for diet advice X


Mate l cant work it out for sh*t, all l have ever done is eat what l feel is right and tweak things accordingly, l am how ever now willing to admit l am willing to try a new approach..


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## DeadlyCoobra (Oct 16, 2011)

Milky said:


> Ok...
> 
> so we have established l need 45 % protein, 35 % carb, 20 % fats..
> 
> Give me some examples of how to acheive this...


Yeah like flinty said, all the brown and wholemeal rice, pasta, bread e.t.c peanut butter is a good one for fats aswell


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## Milky (Nov 30, 2008)

big silver back said:


> I never ever count macro's mate, i'll make it simple. 6 meals a day, eat every 3hrs, 45-50g protein, same amount of clean carbs per meal and a teaspoon of peanut butter with every meal for fats. 6lts water and your away. It you wanna cut add some fasted cardio and as your bodyfat comes down increase the daily cardio by 10 mins every month but keep your food intake the same. Dont forget a cheat meal once a week for your metabolic rate and that should do the job.


You see now THIS is how l have always done it, but 5 meals a day 200 grammes protein, 75 grammes carbs and a bit of sh*t thrown in....

TBH how can you argue with BSB seeing his results ??


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## DeadlyCoobra (Oct 16, 2011)

big silver back said:


> I never ever count macro's mate, i'll make it simple. 6 meals a day, eat every 3hrs, 45-50g protein, same amount of clean carbs per meal and a teaspoon of peanut butter with every meal for fats. 6lts water and your away. It you wanna cut add some fasted cardio and as your bodyfat comes down increase the daily cardio by 10 mins every month but keep your food intake the same. Dont forget a cheat meal once a week for your metabolic rate and that should do the job.


in a nutshell!


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## flinty90 (Jul 1, 2010)

Milky said:


> Mate l cant work it out for sh*t, all l have ever done is eat what l feel is right and tweak things accordingly, l am how ever now willing to admit l am willing to try a new approach..


only kidding mate i will help you as much as i can you know that

silver back has a good approach...

work out 3 days worth of food mate make sure them days all fit into macros and calories so each meal has enough protein, carbs and fats, then just rotate them 3 days for 3 weeks or however long you can, then work out another 3 days worht and run with that for 3 weeks,

keeps it smple and you know you have eaten roughly everything you need for that day , and just adjust as you need to brother !!!!


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## Milky (Nov 30, 2008)

flinty90 said:


> yoar better off working it out as calories mate, and then split them calories into each meal
> 
> so protein would be your chicken breast or meat then your carbs, the potato or rice, pasta bread, then your fats red meat is fine anyway, but buts and olive oil fish buter cheese cream milk , you know the score....


I know the food groups mate, what l meant was how many grammes of chicken would it take to make up my 45 % of protein..


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## flinty90 (Jul 1, 2010)

Milky write down here your days eating your general day !!!

lets have a look for you mate

breakfast

snack

lunch

snack

dinner

snack

and protein shakes if any


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## flinty90 (Jul 1, 2010)

Milky said:


> I know the food groups mate, what l meant was how many grammes of chicken would it take to make up my 45 % of protein..


chicken is classed as protein and a little bit of fat mate

so protein is 4 cals per gram

if your chicken is 200 grams then thats 200 x 4 cals

etc


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## DeadlyCoobra (Oct 16, 2011)

Write it down, i find committing to paper helps me figure it all out in my head, you'll have it sorted in no time. Checking all the food packets for macros at first is a pain in the a*se though!


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## Mingster (Mar 25, 2011)

250grams of chicken, meat or fish with every meal should see you hit your targets mate. A small amount of carbs and bobs you uncle....


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## Milky (Nov 30, 2008)

flinty90 said:


> Milky write down here your days eating your general day !!!
> 
> lets have a look for you mate
> 
> ...


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## DeadlyCoobra (Oct 16, 2011)

flinty90 said:


> chicken is classed as protein and a little bit of fat mate
> 
> so protein is 4 cals per gram
> 
> ...


i may be wrong, but i though chicken is only 30-40g protein per 100g so wouldnt you have to take that into account aswell? 200g chicken = 70g protein = 280cals


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## jaycue2u (Jul 23, 2011)

Personally what i do is sit down and work out what im eating now, i know it takes a couple of hours but it really is worth it. Then look at the Protein / Carb / Fat content and compare it to what your macro calculators have gave you, add and take away bits until it is near enough (i usually work mine out to within 5% but i think thats just as im bored!)


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## MRSTRONG (Apr 18, 2009)

Milky said:


> Just to lean up royally, maintain some size and get some serious definition..


instead of calorie counting just lower carbs and up protein .

you know what you eat everyday so drop carbs .


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## flinty90 (Jul 1, 2010)

DeadlyCoobra said:


> i may be wrong, but i though chicken is only 30-40g protein per 100g so wouldnt you have to take that into account aswell? 200g chicken = 70g protein = 280cals


yeah mate im just talking for protein purposes and the fat is negligable .. he is not competing so the exact science would blow his noodle i think lol


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## MRSTRONG (Apr 18, 2009)

DeadlyCoobra said:


> i may be wrong, but i though chicken is only 30-40g protein per 100g so wouldnt you have to take that into account aswell? 200g chicken = 70g protein = 280cals


no chicken is around 22g of protein per 100g as is most other red meats and fish but pork is around 29g of protein per 100g .


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## jaycue2u (Jul 23, 2011)

For maintenance i run a protein / carb / fat ratio of 40 / 40 / 20, when im running a cycle i run 35 / 45 / 20, when im trying to trim out i run 45 / 35 / 20. Makes it very easy to work out once you have done it once


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## MRSTRONG (Apr 18, 2009)

is that all you eat milky ?


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## Milky (Nov 30, 2008)

ewen said:


> is that all you eat milky ?


It is mate yeah, not massive amounts l know..


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## Mingster (Mar 25, 2011)

I'm going to be eating 1kg of meat/fish/chicken a day spread between three meals, 300g of potato, 250g of rice and 100g of oats for carbs, and three 50g protein shakes a day on my new diet. Throw in a few nuts, seeds, evoo, peanut butter and milk and I'm sorted.


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## DeadlyCoobra (Oct 16, 2011)

ewen said:


> no chicken is around 22g of protein per 100g as is most other red meats and fish but pork is around 29g of protein per 100g .


ok thanks good to know! was just getting at the fact i though flinty had missed out a step in his calculations, he said 200g chickn x 4 for cals but like u said its only 22% not 100% protein so you would be way out.

but then again i got it wrong so its like the blind leading the blind around here lol


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## MRSTRONG (Apr 18, 2009)

Milky said:


> It is mate yeah, not massive amounts l know..


id add in another 150g of protein and some evoo .

your carbs are minimal you should be ripped lol


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## Milky (Nov 30, 2008)

ewen said:


> id add in another 150g of protein and some evoo .
> 
> your carbs are minimal you should be ripped lol


I do add the EVOO to my shakes mate and yeah the carbs really are low l know that...

I may add another couple of meals in to it then..


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## damerush (Sep 17, 2011)

Mingster said:


> I'm going to be eating 1kg of meat/fish/chicken a day spread between three meals, 300g of potato, 250g of rice and 100g of oats for carbs, and three 50g protein shakes a day on my new diet. Throw in a few nuts, seeds, evoo, peanut butter and milk and I'm sorted.


1kg of meat/fish a day, it`s an expensive game isn't it.


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## Milky (Nov 30, 2008)

damerush said:


> 1kg of meat/fish a day, it`s an expensive game isn't it.


Yeah l thought that too...


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## Mingster (Mar 25, 2011)

damerush said:


> 1kg of meat/fish a day, it`s an expensive game isn't it.


It's not cheap but I shop around lol. And I don't drink - that saves a fortune.


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## DeadlyCoobra (Oct 16, 2011)

Milky said:


> I know the food groups mate, what l meant was how many grammes of chicken would it take to make up my 45 % of protein..


right so ur going 2600 cals so 1170 cals protein so 292.5g of protein a day

if chicken is 22g protein per 100 like ewan said so 100/22 = 4.55

292.5 x 4.55 = 1329g


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## jaycue2u (Jul 23, 2011)

Also, i know alot of the guys use certain websites, but i dont think you can beat using Excel to calculate and track everything. That way you know the numbers you are using are correct for the products you are using / eating.


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## Milky (Nov 30, 2008)

DeadlyCoobra said:


> right so ur going 2600 cals so 1170 cals protein so 292.5g of protein a day
> 
> if chicken is 22g protein per 100 like ewan said so 100/22 = 4.55
> 
> 292.5 x 4.55 = 1329g


Now this l can follow, thats roughly 6 chicken breasts..


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## steviethe spark (Oct 17, 2010)

Intresting read ,like u milky i dont count cals at all just try to eat every 2-3 hours and get as much protein in as possible .May try sorting my diet out also just from reading some of these posts.


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## DeadlyCoobra (Oct 16, 2011)

Milky said:


> Now this l can follow, thats roughly 6 chicken breasts..


3 for a tenner of supermarket packs of chicken breast that are 450g each so thats pretty much on the mark for ur macros for a day


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## Pictor (Jan 10, 2011)

Zangief said:


> Here's a great article about cutting whilst keeping/building muscle by Layne Norton worth a read mate!
> 
> Pre-Contest Dieting: Obviously the most pertinent issue regarding pre-contest preparation is the diet aspect of preparation. It is not enough to just clean up what you eat, it must be far more drastic than that.
> 
> ...


Pretty much what I was about to say :whistling:


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## MRSTRONG (Apr 18, 2009)

Milky said:


> Now this l can follow, thats roughly 6 chicken breasts..


yeah if they are 200g ish then add 150-200g of protein in there from shakes ,

add gear in and the fat hould come off and muscle created .

just seems your body is in limbo not wanting to do anything but survive IE survival mode ...


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## Andrewgenic (Jul 5, 2010)

I need to do this too. I always eat well and know the basics, but have yet to get 'scientific' about it yet. Maybe this is why I feel that I always fall short of my goals.


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## Milky (Nov 30, 2008)

Andrewgenic said:


> I need to do this too. I always eat well and know the basics, but have yet to get 'scientific' about it yet. Maybe this is why I feel that I always fall short of my goals.


Exactly the same as mate..


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## Tassotti (Feb 27, 2011)

Milky, take one of your meals, then work out the calories and macros for that meal using one of the aforementioned sites

This is just to get your head around using the software and applying it to your diet


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## ki3rz (Sep 12, 2011)

Don't know if it's been mentioned, ain't read the whole thread but I find myfitnesspal a very handy site/app for recording my diet mate


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## andymc88 (Aug 18, 2011)

I'm going to try this after I've tried the timed carb diet I'm messing with it atm and seen good results off a month but all the sweets I've had lately have got me looking pregnant


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## Milky (Nov 30, 2008)

Tassotti said:


> That sounds low Milky..Are you cutting?
> 
> WWhat's your current weight


Sorry mate totally missed this post,

Currently around the 17 stone mark mate...


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## Milky (Nov 30, 2008)

Right my friends disect this and tell me how it looks..

Breakfast ; 4 x scrambled eggs, 2 x wholemeal toast, 4 x weetabix, glass of OJ, cup of rocketfuel coffee

Mid morning ; 200 grammes chicken, 75 grammes rice, touch of sauce added for flavour, ketchup, HP, Waistline etc..

Lunch ; 200 grammes lean mince, 75 grammes rice, again sauce added

Mid afternoon ; chicken or mince with rice again...

Pre workout ; shake 40 grammes protein apparently..

Post workout ; PWO Shake along with 200 grammes protein with 75 grammes carbs of some description...

Evening ; 4 x scrambled eggs, 2 x wholemeal toast...

I know its very basic.

I will also be adding EVOO to my shakes.....


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## m575 (Apr 4, 2010)

Don't like Veg mate? lol


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## Milky (Nov 30, 2008)

m575 said:


> Don't like Veg mate? lol


yeah sorry mate usually add veg to the evening meal, carrots sprouts and broccolli...


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## andymc88 (Aug 18, 2011)

Milky pwo is that 200g of say meat with a shake or 200g protein shake?


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## flinty90 (Jul 1, 2010)

Milky said:


> Right my friends disect this and tell me how it looks..
> 
> Breakfast ; 4 x scrambled eggs, 2 x wholemeal toast, 4 x weetabix, glass of OJ, cup of rocketfuel coffee
> 
> ...


i would suspect i may be wrong , that there are too many carbs in that plan mate...

but see how you go... loks good for everything else with veg added. but carbs may inhibit a bit of fat loss IMO ...

i never load any meals with any carbs personally after 2 pm , and i keep my carbs below 150 grams per day as i find it trims me very quickly..

my carbs will only be in my breakfast and maybe lunch but that will be it for the day personally...

you will just have to see what works for you mate , if you arent losing much fat like i say, drop some carbs. if you are then thats perfect !!!

I used to love prodivers approach to all this

1. plenty of protein

2. moderate fats

3. enough carbs to keep energy levels up

5. train hard

6. sleep well

it really made it simple for me mate that advice !!!


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## Milky (Nov 30, 2008)

andymc88 said:


> Milky pwo is that 200g of say meat with a shake or 200g protein shake?


200 grammes meat mate..


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## Milky (Nov 30, 2008)

flinty90 said:


> i would suspect i may be wrong , that there are too many carbs in that plan mate...
> 
> but see how you go... loks good for everything else with veg added. but carbs may inhibit a bit of fat loss IMO ...
> 
> ...


Yeah looking back l may reign them in slightly TBH...

I did a spell where l had very little carbs after lunch myself and your bang on it did tighten me up nicely..


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## flinty90 (Jul 1, 2010)

Milky said:


> Yeah looking back l may reign them in slightly TBH...
> 
> I did a spell where l had very little carbs after lunch myself and your bang on it did tighten me up nicely..


yeah mate, it just maybe better to start as you are there and reign them in as you go mate to see where your peak levels are. i know your job is long and physical so extra carbs may not be an issue.. but its worth keeping them in to start with, then bringing them down slowly to a level you can cope with rather than dropping them out straight away and not finding your sweet spot so to speak X


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## Fatstuff (Mar 2, 2010)

Well i never thought id see the day - i wish i could be ar5ed to find an old milky post about macro hating :lol: , be nice as a new sig :lol: - Low carbs are fantastic if u can handle it m8, just eat them around your workout and bob's ur uncle, as for knowing what u ingest - do u shop at supermarkets or butchers for ur meat, i just read the packets from my 'extra lean' mincemeat and casserole beef etc if im stuck, once u have recorded ur calories for a couple weeks or so u tend to remember it all. Low carbs high protein and a fair amount of fat daily will make a large lad like yourself look awesome  good luck mate


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## Milky (Nov 30, 2008)

Fatstuff said:


> Well i never thought id see the day - i wish i could be ar5ed to find an old milky post about macro hating :lol: , be nice as a new sig :lol: - Low carbs are fantastic if u can handle it m8, just eat them around your workout and bob's ur uncle, as for knowing what u ingest - do u shop at supermarkets or butchers for ur meat, i just read the packets from my 'extra lean' mincemeat and casserole beef etc if im stuck, once u have recorded ur calories for a couple weeks or so u tend to remember it all. Low carbs high protein and a fair amount of fat daily will make a large lad like yourself look awesome  good luck mate


Mate l am the first to admit the thought of it makes my brain melt, even this thread has done my head in at points, thing is tho if it gives me that something extra that can take me closer to my goals l have to be open minded about it and give it a go..


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## Fatstuff (Mar 2, 2010)

Milky said:


> Mate l am the first to admit the thought of it makes my brain melt, even this thread has done my head in at points, thing is tho if it gives me that something extra that can take me closer to my goals l have to be open minded about it and give it a go..


After a bit mate, it is actually simpler than it seems, a thread like this could make it more complicated if loads of ppl are firing loads of different things at u, I like to keep things simple - i have started my new diet today and i will be hovering around 2000kcals, 150g - 200g protein and carbs as low as i can handle, my fats will be mainly from evoo - thats it! And i will be starting some cardio which is a first lol


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## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

Limiting your carbs later on makes no sense given you train in the afternoon.


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## Bamse (Feb 5, 2011)

It's a drag, but keeping track of macros is a must, I've found (doesn't mean I always do it, mind...). The wrong things tend to add up so very quickly and you often don't get as much of the good stuff as you thought. Best of luck with this, Milk, and remember you can always resort to eating the same damn thing every day to make it simple.


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## DeadlyCoobra (Oct 16, 2011)

Milky said:


> Right my friends disect this and tell me how it looks..
> 
> Breakfast ; 4 x scrambled eggs, 2 x wholemeal toast, 4 x weetabix, glass of OJ, cup of rocketfuel coffee
> 
> ...


Not sure if you wanted someone to analyse the **** out of it but o well here goes! made a few assumptions, you had milk with your weetabix, rice was brown and you had water with your shakes.

Breakfast: egg - 24 4 28 toast - 9 33.8 3 weetabix - 8.6 51.4 3.6 oj - 22 - milk - 21.6 28.8 10.8 Total - P:63 C:139 F:45

Mid Morning: Chicken 46 <1 2.5 Rice - *5.2 55.5 2.1* sauce will be sodium and a bit of sugar say 5g Total - P:*51* C:*56* F:*5*

Lunch: Mince - 16 0 4 Rice - *5.2 55.5 2.1* Sauce - 5 Total - P:*20* C:*56* F:*6*

Mid afternoon: Chicken again Total - P:*51* C:*56* F:*5*

Pre workout: shake roughly P:40 (C:3 F:1.5 guess) Total - P:40 C:3 F1.5

PWO: Shake and chicken + rice again (assuming no sugar in PWO shake) Total - P:*91* C:*59* F:*7*

Evening: egg - 24 4 28 toast - 9 33.8 3 Total - P:33 C:38 F:31

Daily total: P:*349g* C:*407g* F:*100g*

Total Cals: (*349*x4) + (*407*x4) + (*100*x9) = *3924*

This is only a rough estimaite, i used the nutritional info below, please correct me if im wrong or have failed at basic arithmetic! :laugh:

Veg will only add fibre really and nothing else so eat as much as you want to keep you full

Scrambled egg (per egg) - P:6g C:1g F:7g

Kingsmill Wholemeal Bread (1 Serving=1 Slice/45g) - P:4.5 C:16.9 F:1.5

Weetabix (2 Biscuits) - P:4.3 C:25.7 F:0.8

Milk (semi skimmed 100ml) - P:3.6 C:4.8 F:1.8

Rice (Tesco Brown per 100) - P:*6.9* C:*74* F:*2.8*

OJ is gonna be about 20-25g carbs/sugar per cup

Chicken (100g) P:23.1 C:<1 F1.2

Lean Mince (100g): P:21 C:0 F:5

Edit: just had another meal with rice and realised i got rice stats wrong, turns out i was reading the per 75g not 100, corrections are in *bold*.


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## Dirk McQuickly (Dec 29, 2010)

try here, milky - http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/food-diet-nutrition-info/5071-formulating-your-diet-beginers.html

there's a heck of a lot of info there, but if you scroll down to the heading 'resting metabolic rate' that should give you what you need. You'll need to sit down with a pencil, though!


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## defdaz (Nov 11, 2007)

Not seen anyone write 'gramme' for a loooong time! 

Seems like too high a carb / calorie intake for much weight loss mate. Only real way to find out though is to do it... Monitor for a week and then adjust. Carbs would be the first thing I'd remove. 4 weetabix, 2 slices of toast and a cup of OJ for breakie?! Cutting?! Er.... 

Instead of rice why not a ton of veg instead? The frozen veg individual bags are perfect for a single meal. Microwave that, foreman the chicken, bosh on your favourite low carb sauce and you've got a very quick and easy meal with high protein and low carbs.

Another thing to do is keep the carb intake around your workout so that they're available for your workout and not gobbled up during the day by your general metabolism. Better to burn fat during the morning / afternoon and then switch over to carbs during the workout and to help replenish them afterwards...


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## andymc88 (Aug 18, 2011)

@milky was going to say u must have a hell of a stomach to cope with that much lol


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## Milky (Nov 30, 2008)

bayman said:


> Limiting your carbs later on makes no sense given you train in the afternoon.


I agree to an extent mate but l find it just leaves me bloated and uncomfortable.


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## flinty90 (Jul 1, 2010)

Milky said:


> I agree to an extent mate but l find it just leaves me bloated and uncomfortable.


as long as the carbs have gone in that day mate its negligable anyway regarding working them around your training ... you will benefit more from early carbs and bieng at work all day, your training then will just need carbs topping up a little bit but a fcukin banana after you have trained will do that pretty easily as well as your protein mate X


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## Fatstuff (Mar 2, 2010)

DeadlyCoobra said:


> Not sure if you wanted someone to analyse the **** out of it but o well here goes! made a few assumptions, you had milk with your weetabix, rice was brown and you had water with your shakes.
> 
> Breakfast: egg - 24 4 28 toast - 9 33.8 3 weetabix - 8.6 51.4 3.6 oj - 22 - milk - 21.6 28.8 10.8 Total - P:63 C:139 F:45
> 
> ...


I think that's real nice of u to take time out to work that out - I owe u a rep when not on my phone, hope others follow suit lol


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## Milky (Nov 30, 2008)

defdaz said:


> Not seen anyone write 'gramme' for a loooong time!
> 
> Seems like too high a carb / calorie intake for much weight loss mate. Only real way to find out though is to do it... Monitor for a week and then adjust. Carbs would be the first thing I'd remove. 4 weetabix, 2 slices of toast and a cup of OJ for breakie?! Cutting?! Er....
> 
> ...


daz the reason for so many carbs am is that is when l am most active at work, if l dont have them l fade badly...

I also have to prepare all my food the night before and l find it very hard to eat most foods cold... hence why trying to keep it as simple as poss...

I could maybe keep one of my afternoon meals for pre workout tho.


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## Fullhouse (Mar 31, 2010)

Milky why not just use http://swole.me/ as you have an active job this needs extra kcals


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## Milky (Nov 30, 2008)

DeadlyCoobra said:


> Not sure if you wanted someone to analyse the **** out of it but o well here goes! made a few assumptions, you had milk with your weetabix, rice was brown and you had water with your shakes.
> 
> Breakfast: egg - 24 4 28 toast - 9 33.8 3 weetabix - 8.6 51.4 3.6 oj - 22 - milk - 21.6 28.8 10.8 Total - P:63 C:139 F:45
> 
> ...


Cheers mate, brilliant.


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## Tassotti (Feb 27, 2011)

Fatstuff said:


> I think that's real nice of u to take time out to work that out - I owe u a rep when not on my phone, hope others follow suit lol


It is really nice and a lot of work has been put into that.

However, it's not teaching Milky anything.

He needs to sit down and go through this for himself to get a better understanding (which is what he wants I think)


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## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

Tracking cals long term as an approach, for most, is unsustainable. It's good to do for a given period of time, or so you can get good at guesstimating your own intake. Also, if you eat the same things regularly it becomes easy, almost second nature. But you have to start with weighing and tracking everything to start, a set of electronic scales is one of the best investments I've ever done, physique wise.

My approach to this would be set you cals at 14cals per lb as you have an active job, 1g per lb minimum protein, carbs and fats that fit within that intake and your personal preference. See how you go.

This is a great article on simplified macro counting:



> 100g of Raw Meat/Fish is 20g of protein. (A conservative number.)
> 
> Green vegetables don't have any carbs. - Eat plenty to slow digestion.
> 
> ...


Guide on simplified Macro Counting.


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## DeadlyCoobra (Oct 16, 2011)

Tassotti said:


> It is really nice and a lot of work has been put into that.
> 
> However, it's not teaching Milky anything.
> 
> He needs to sit down and go through this for himself to get a better understanding (which is what he wants I think)


fair enough i may have gone overboard but he did say disect this and tell me how it looks. Besides i put all the info i used in there so its more of a worked example that he can use to better his understanding


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## Bamse (Feb 5, 2011)

bayman said:


> Tracking cals long term as an approach, for most, is unsustainable. It's good to do for a given period of time, or so you can get good at guesstimating your own intake. Also, if you eat the same things regularly it becomes easy, almost second nature. But you have to start with weighing and tracking everything to start, a set of electronic scales is one of the best investments I've ever done, physique wise.


Very true. As with so much else, a diet or training program maybe the dogs private parts on paper, but if you cannot make it work for you it's useless. Most of us, as committed and hardcore as we would like to be, have lives outside the gym and what is 100% for us can never be the same as 100% for someone who does lifting/fitness for a living.


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## Tassotti (Feb 27, 2011)

DeadlyCoobra said:


> fair enough i may have gone overboard but he did say disect this and tell me how it looks. Besides i put all the info i used in there so its more of a worked example that he can use to better his understanding


Cool brother


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## DeadlyCoobra (Oct 16, 2011)

Fatstuff said:


> I think that's real nice of u to take time out to work that out - I owe u a rep when not on my phone, hope others follow suit lol


Cheers mate i figured i may as well make myself useful around here


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## TH0R (Aug 15, 2007)

Just skimmed 90 posts and didn't see the word cardio in many :lol:

This is simple mate and I spent most of last year doing it, can't take any glory as it

was Con and Hilly who convinced me it was the best way to lose excess bf whilst

preserving the almighty muscle.

Carbs only at breakfast and round workout

Rest of time protein and fats

Do cardio, just 20 mins post workout, reasonably hard, say 135 bpm or above.

Have 1 cheat meal on a Saturday where you eat anything you fancy, or make it

a cheat day, better than having cheat meal sat & sun IMO.

Adjust fats (carbs if necessary) and cardio to suit what you look like in mirror, I find its better to increase

cardio and then adjust cals, then adjust cardio, then cals, you get the picture.

Start off with 3300 cals, keep protein higher than normal (not a lot though)

Taking diet advice from ewen and flinty.............. :lol: :lol:

Thats like Katie Price giving out "anti promiscuous" leaflets


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## TH0R (Aug 15, 2007)

Forgot to say

If your used to having a lot of carbs/processed sugars then you will feel a little lethargy

but this will only last a few days.

Bonus is you will also feel much fitter after a few weeks


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## Milky (Nov 30, 2008)

tel3563 said:


> Just skimmed 90 posts and didn't see the word cardio in many :lol:
> 
> This is simple mate and I spent most of last year doing it, can't take any glory as it
> 
> ...


TBH Tel nothing re training has been mentioned, as far as l can remember anyway.

Training and cardio is a given, but l do like the dietry approach in your post..


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## TH0R (Aug 15, 2007)

Milky said:


> TBH Tel nothing re training has been mentioned, as far as l can remember anyway.
> 
> Training and cardio is a given, but l do like the dietry approach in your post..


Was just making sure you knew


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## Adamdraper (Dec 5, 2011)

Quick question guys and one that might make me sound like a fecking idiot!

When you talk about calorie goals etc, are these net of calories burned through exercise or are they already built in to the calculations?

I.e during an average weights session I reckon I burn between 500 and 700 calories (have worn a heart monitor before while working out) so if my calorie goal is say 2600 calories, is this actually circa 3100 on a gym day?


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## flinty90 (Jul 1, 2010)

tel3563 said:


> Just skimmed 90 posts and didn't see the word cardio in many :lol:
> 
> This is simple mate and I spent most of last year doing it, can't take any glory as it
> 
> ...


lol even though you just said exactly what i suggested nobby no c0ck lol X


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## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

tel3563 said:


> Just skimmed 90 posts and didn't see the word cardio in many :lol:


That's because it's MASSIVELY overrated for fat loss. It's much easier not to consume the cals than try burn them off.


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## TH0R (Aug 15, 2007)

flinty90 said:


> lol even though you just said exactly what i suggested nobby no c0ck lol X


Is it strange to be happy with nobby no c0ck rather than nobby no legs?


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## TH0R (Aug 15, 2007)

No its daily cals


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## flinty90 (Jul 1, 2010)

tel3563 said:


> Is it strange to be happy with nobby no c0ck rather than nobby no legs?


errrm i guess its priorities mate thats all pmsl !!!


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## DeadlyCoobra (Oct 16, 2011)

Adamdraper said:


> Quick question guys and one that might make me sound like a fecking idiot!
> 
> When you talk about calorie goals etc, are these net of calories burned through exercise or are they already built in to the calculations?
> 
> I.e during an average weights session I reckon I burn between 500 and 700 calories (have worn a heart monitor before while working out) so if my calorie goal is say 2600 calories, is this actually circa 3100 on a gym day?


Bit of a mind bender but yeah you do in a way need to take it into account. For example if you were bulking at 3500cals no cardio and then added in cardio you may stop growing and this could become your maintenance calories due to your increase in activity. But thats why its good to weigh yourself a lot so you know if your putting on more than say about 1lb a week you need to either lower calories a tad or do a bit of cardio. Same for cutting if your dropping fast more that 2lbs a week your probs losing a fair bit of muscle so either up cals a tad or lower cardio intensity/duration.

I personally do not worry that much about taking in less calories on rest days than working days, tend to just keep it constant, your body still needs to repair on rest days so it is working. This is my opinion though and im sure some will say it does matter especially when it comes to cutting.


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