# Calorie intake understanding



## Stef92 (Apr 16, 2015)

I have been doing some research online in trying to understand how many calories i should be consuming in order to lose 10lbs of fat in 8 weeks. i have come across the following.. i am currently consuming 1950 calories with 200g protein/carbs and 40g fats (40/40/20) if i am eating that many calories but going to the gym in the morning for HIIT and then evening for weights approx burning 600-700? cals for both sessions i am actually only having around 1200 calories surely thats too low? cant seem to get my head round it! if i carry on eating this amount of calories how long can i expect it to take me to lose around 10lbs? weighed myself this morning and i was 86.8kg & im 6ft. open to advise/queries/criticism

How many calories to eat if you want to lose weight?Before getting into a real example of how to calculate the calories you should be eating per day for weight loss let me say that this is only an estimate and it is not guaranteed that by following this number you will lose or gain weight. There are many other factors involved in losing weight and the number of calories you consume is just one of the elements and since it is easy to calculate you can use it as your starting point.Let's assume that you need to *lose 5lb in 2 months*, this is how you calculate the amounts of calories to eat per day:Step 1: Calculate your BMR and daily calorie needsAfter using our BMR and daily calorie calculator you found that: BMR is 1800 calories and daily calorie needs are 2000 kcal.Step 2: Calculate the calories you want to loseYou want to lose 5lb which is aprx 17500 calories (1lb of fat is 3500 calories)Step 3: Calculate how many calories you need to save per dayYour goal is not lose 5lb in 2 months. Doing some basic calculations you can find out that 17500 calories in 2 months is about 8750 calories per month or 2187 per week or 313 kcal per day. So in theory, if you manage to save 313 calories per day you will lose 5lb in 2 monthsStep 3: Subtract the number of calories you need to save per day (Step 3 above) from your daily calorie needs (step 1 above)Daily Calorie needs - Calorie savings per day = 2000 - 313 = 1687 kcal per day. This is the number of calories you need to eat per day if you want to lose 5lb in 2 months!

source : How many calories should I burn a day to lose weight?


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## Bull Terrier (May 14, 2012)

It's not really so simple in my opinion. The human body doesn't work like this at all. Have a read of this article:

There Is No Such Thing As A "Calorie" (To Your Body)


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## John. (Jun 24, 2013)

Weight loss is never linear like this article suggests. The numbers work sure, but there are other things that effect your body weight that aren't fat loss.


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## Guest (Apr 22, 2015)

Bull Terrier said:


> It's not really so simple in my opinion. The human body doesn't work like this at all. Have a read of this article:
> 
> There Is No Such Thing As A "Calorie" (To Your Body)


Brilliant read :thumbup1:


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## dannythinx (Oct 4, 2014)

I have never counted macros. I have always eaten whatever I wanted. When bulking as per my avi I ate around 2800 cals a day to gain size as I was skinny as f. Now I'm cutting I'm eating 2000 cals a day from wherever and have dropped 16lbs in around 8 weeks. Spilt the cals 1000 per meal or thereabouts to make things easier. I honestly think IMO you just need to burn more cals then you are consuming to drop fat and there's nothing more to it then that


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## John. (Jun 24, 2013)

A calorie IS a calorie, sure your body doesn't work in calories, but it's the only measure we have, so lets use it eh?

Besides, Calories in Vs Calories out has been proven to work time and again.


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## TheScam (Apr 30, 2013)

Stef92 said:


> I have been doing some research online in trying to understand how many calories i should be consuming in order to lose 10lbs of fat in 8 weeks. i have come across the following.. i am currently consuming 1950 calories with 200g protein/carbs and 40g fats (40/40/20) if i am eating that many calories but going to the gym in the morning for HIIT and then evening for weights approx burning 600-700? cals for both sessions i am actually only having around 1200 calories surely thats too low? cant seem to get my head round it! if i carry on eating this amount of calories how long can i expect it to take me to lose around 10lbs? weighed myself this morning and i was 86.8kg & im 6ft. open to advise/queries/criticism
> 
> *How many calories to eat if you want to lose weight?*
> 
> ...


How did you get to 1950 cals per day? How did you work out this is what you need?

How do you know you burn 700 cals per session?

What else do you do during te day? Active job or desk monkey?

You are right 1200 isn't enough calories. You shouldn't ever eat less than your BMR.

How long have you been eating 1950 cals? Have you just started or have you been losing weight and plateaued?


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## Stef92 (Apr 16, 2015)

Scammell29 said:


> How did you get to 1950 cals per day? How did you work out this is what you need?
> 
> How do you know you burn 700 cals per session?
> 
> ...


I've been on 2100 cals and not been losing weight so have just dropped it.

700 is a guess. Two intense gym sessions a day.

I work in an office

Started on 1950 on Monday ..


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## TheScam (Apr 30, 2013)

Stef92 said:


> I've been on 2100 cals and not been losing weight so have just dropped it.
> 
> 700 is a guess. Two intense gym sessions a day.
> 
> ...


I think you'd be surprised about calorie expenditure in the gym, especially weights. It could be quite a bit less, but I don't know what you do or how hard you work...

Personally I don't think you are eating enough, especially if you are actually burning that much a day through exercise. I was in a similar position and got to a point where I was eating basically my BMR every day and not losing anything.

Have a read of this: https://www.muscleforlife.com/how-to-speed-up-metabolism/

I found it very useful. I spent so long eating such a low amount of calories that I believe I damaged my metabolism. I found that slowly increasing my calories by 100-150 kcals extra a day each week helped. I eventually got to a position where I was maintaining at around 2800cals a day whilst exercising less. (i'm now eating 3200 cals a day and gaining little more than 1 lb per week)

Obviously once I got up to around 2700-2800 a day I could have then re-entered a 500-750cal a day deficit and eaten 2100 cals a day and started losing weight again but I wanted to gain some size.


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## Stef92 (Apr 16, 2015)

Scammell29 said:


> I think you'd be surprised about calorie expenditure in the gym, especially weights. It could be quite a bit less, but I don't know what you do or how hard you work...
> 
> Personally I don't think you are eating enough, especially if you are actually burning that much a day through exercise. I was in a similar position and got to a point where I was eating basically my BMR every day and not losing anything.
> 
> ...


That's my worry, damaging my metabolism and going lower and lower on kcal. I think my maintenance level is around the 2100 mark as I wasn't going either way when eating that many calories for a while. Although I want my maintenance to be higher! I will gradually increase my intake once I have lost the next couple of kg's of weight.

I believe my BMR is around 2000 mark but I'm really not sure ??


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## TheScam (Apr 30, 2013)

Stef92 said:


> That's my worry, damaging my metabolism and going lower and lower on kcal. I think my maintenance level is around the 2100 mark as I wasn't going either way when eating that many calories for a while. Although I want my maintenance to be higher! I will gradually increase my intake once I have lost the next couple of kg's of weight.
> 
> I believe my BMR is around 2000 mark but I'm really not sure ??


I use this to calculate BMR: Katch-Mcardle BMR Calculator | Katch-Mcardle Calculator it requires knowing your body fat % roughly though.

Mine was around 1850. Out of curiosity I wore a HR monitor to bed one night and according to that I burned approx. 78 cals per hour through the night which is pretty close

Using your stats above I'd say your BMR is similar. If you are leaner it will be higher and if you are fatter it will be lower. That should make your maintenance cals around 2100-2200 a day (with a healthy metabolism) without including any gym work. So you could eat that much and look to exercise 500cals per day and you will lose 1lb per week (roughly) or you could reduce the cals and train a bit less. Personally I wouldn't suggest you eat any less than 2000 cals.

Your macros are good though.

Weight loss is theoretically simple - calories in / calories out if you are in a deficit you will lose weight, if you are in a surplus you will gain but that doesn't allow for metabolism breakdown and its not healthy to spend too long in a calorific deficit.


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## Stef92 (Apr 16, 2015)

Scammell29 said:


> I use this to calculate BMR: Katch-Mcardle BMR Calculator | Katch-Mcardle Calculator it requires knowing your body fat % roughly though.
> 
> Mine was around 1850. Out of curiosity I wore a HR monitor to bed one night and according to that I burned approx. 78 cals per hour through the night which is pretty close
> 
> ...


I got my BF% done 3 weeks back at my gym and was advised 13% although aome guys on here believe that is not accurate. Anyway, I used that site to calculate and I put 13and jt said 2001 calories and 15% 1931 calories.

So am I taking in the right amount?

I'm getting another % done next week and will do all my measurements and see how I am getting on, looking in the mirror and the pics I've taken I think I have improved.


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## Dark sim (May 18, 2013)

Stef92 said:


> I have been doing some research online in trying to understand how many calories i should be consuming in order to lose 10lbs of fat in 8 weeks. i have come across the following.. i am currently consuming 1950 calories with 200g protein/carbs and 40g fats (40/40/20) if i am eating that many calories but going to the gym in the morning for HIIT and then evening for weights approx burning 600-700? cals for both sessions i am actually only having around 1200 calories surely thats too low? cant seem to get my head round it! if i carry on eating this amount of calories how long can i expect it to take me to lose around 10lbs? weighed myself this morning and i was 86.8kg & im 6ft. open to advise/queries/criticism
> 
> How many calories to eat if you want to lose weight?Before getting into a real example of how to calculate the calories you should be eating per day for weight loss let me say that this is only an estimate and it is not guaranteed that by following this number you will lose or gain weight. There are many other factors involved in losing weight and the number of calories you consume is just one of the elements and since it is easy to calculate you can use it as your starting point.Let's assume that you need to *lose 5lb in 2 months*, this is how you calculate the amounts of calories to eat per day:Step 1: Calculate your BMR and daily calorie needsAfter using our BMR and daily calorie calculator you found that: BMR is 1800 calories and daily calorie needs are 2000 kcal.Step 2: Calculate the calories you want to loseYou want to lose 5lb which is aprx 17500 calories (1lb of fat is 3500 calories)Step 3: Calculate how many calories you need to save per dayYour goal is not lose 5lb in 2 months. Doing some basic calculations you can find out that 17500 calories in 2 months is about 8750 calories per month or 2187 per week or 313 kcal per day. So in theory, if you manage to save 313 calories per day you will lose 5lb in 2 monthsStep 3: Subtract the number of calories you need to save per day (Step 3 above) from your daily calorie needs (step 1 above)Daily Calorie needs - Calorie savings per day = 2000 - 313 = 1687 kcal per day. This is the number of calories you need to eat per day if you want to lose 5lb in 2 months!
> 
> source : How many calories should I burn a day to lose weight?


You are over estimating your calorie expenditure and getting caught up on details. Worrying about metabolic damage...lol.

Stop worrying about BF %.

Can you post a picture?

Can you post your diet?

Can you post your training, including your HIIT sessions?


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## Stef92 (Apr 16, 2015)

Dark sim said:


> You are over estimating your calorie expenditure and getting caught up on details. Worrying about metabolic damage...lol.
> 
> Stop worrying about BF %.
> 
> ...


I know I'm worrying about it and probably thinking way too much into it but I am getting real down with myself! Haha vicious circle!



Diet attached, won't let me upload two pics so will upload pic of myself in a minute.

Training is one body part per day in the evening (heavy weight 8-10 reps then drop set to 20 reps) about 4-5 different excersises

HIIT is spinning twice a week, 20 min on treadmill one day (25 secs on 35 secs off - 12mph 4% incline) and two sessions of circuits (tabata style 20 secs workout 10 sec rest) I also train abs every day for around 10 min


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## Stef92 (Apr 16, 2015)

Dark sim said:


> You are over estimating your calorie expenditure and getting caught up on details. Worrying about metabolic damage...lol.
> 
> Stop worrying about BF %.
> 
> ...




Latest pic took Sunday


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## Dark sim (May 18, 2013)

Stef92 said:


> I know I'm worrying about it and probably thinking way too much into it but I am getting real down with myself! Haha vicious circle!
> 
> View attachment 170459
> 
> ...


No, you've sent your macros. Send your actual food intake.


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## nWo (Mar 25, 2014)

I've dropped from 25% bodyfat down to 12% in the last 10 weeks using the "a calorie is a calorie" approach, losing a very linear 3lbs a week whilst maintaining muscular weight. Seems to work pretty ****ing well if you ask me.


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## nWo (Mar 25, 2014)

Bull Terrier said:


> It's not really so simple in my opinion. The human body doesn't work like this at all. Have a read of this article:
> 
> There Is No Such Thing As A "Calorie" (To Your Body)


Not only was this article full of absolute bollocks, but I also saw the word Takeaways as a title for the conclusion and I now feel hungry whist trying to relax for bed. Thanks a ****ing bunch, pal...


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

I said:


> I've dropped from 25% bodyfat down to 12% in the last 10 weeks using the "a calorie is a calorie" approach' date=' losing a very linear 3lbs a week whilst maintaining muscular weight. Seems to work pretty ****ing well if you ask me.


For the OP's benefit it's probably worth pointing out that this was I believe with a fair amount of chemical assistance?


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## Stef92 (Apr 16, 2015)

I said:


> I've dropped from 25% bodyfat down to 12% in the last 10 weeks using the "a calorie is a calorie" approach' date=' losing a very linear 3lbs a week whilst maintaining muscular weight. Seems to work pretty ****ing well if you ask me.


What do you mean by 'calorie is a calorie' approach? You taking anything aswell?


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## Stef92 (Apr 16, 2015)

Dark sim said:


> No, you've sent your macros. Send your actual food intake.


Just sent that as the food varies each day.. But this is it mainly

Breakfast

30g oats with water

MyProtein shake 50g (202kcal 40 pro minimal carb and fat)

Mid morning

100g chicken breast in a weight watchers wrap and a caramel snack a jack

Lunch

Chicken or fish with Cous Cous or rice

Mid afternoon

250g quark with two teaspoons of agave nectar and 20g almonds

Have a usn bcaa drink during workout

Protein shake afterwork out

Quark with agave nectar and 15g almond butter

Varies day by day but always hitting the macros sent in previous post...

Thoughts ?


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## Dark sim (May 18, 2013)

Stef92 said:


> Just sent that as the food varies each day.. But this is it mainly
> 
> Breakfast
> 
> ...


I wanted to see if you are calculating your macros correctly, and it seems you are. There aren't any sneaky snacks not accounted for?

Have you been dieting long? How much have you lost?

Based on the calories and your activity level you should be losing.

Your pic does not put you at 13%, quite a way off by my eyes. But like I said ignore that, use the calliper measurements sure, but the formula being used to translate that to BF % is inaccurate.


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## Stef92 (Apr 16, 2015)

Dark sim said:


> I wanted to see if you are calculating your macros correctly, and it seems you are. There aren't any sneaky snacks not accounted for?
> 
> Have you been dieting long? How much have you lost?
> 
> ...


No sneaky snacks I can assure you that! Weekends I may go over but not ridiculously! Everything I consume goes into my fitness pal.

I've been dieting for years, but think I have always ate a reasonably low amount of calories... My weight on the scales doesn't change to much in all honesty but when I get my readings done my measurements do reduce (slightly!) just find it bizarre how some people lost 2 lbs a week?

Is it worth building up my calories gradually to about 2500 then reduce? Can't seem to get my head round what else I should do?

Heard that something to do with thyroid can also affect weight loss, or lack of it so to speak


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## Dark sim (May 18, 2013)

Stef92 said:


> No sneaky snacks I can assure you that! Weekends I may go over but not ridiculously! Everything I consume goes into my fitness pal.
> 
> I've been dieting for years, but think I have always ate a reasonably low amount of calories... My weight on the scales doesn't change to much in all honesty but when I get my readings done my measurements do reduce (slightly!) just find it bizarre how some people lost 2 lbs a week?
> 
> ...


It may need a little tweak to get you moving again, something like 100 kcal, could do it, but no guarantees.

Your calories aren't dangerously low, so wouldn't stop reducing yet. Have you tried any fat burners, over the counter or otherwise?

Low dose t3 wouldn't be a bad shout, but this is a short term fix.

These low calories don't seem to effect your energy levels considering you are in the gym twice a day. That would be a concern, otherwise I don't see why you cannot reduce Kcal a little more.


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## John. (Jun 24, 2013)

The most improtant thing is to get your weekend eating under control - that was my biggest issue with losing weight. Did not have a problem sticking to my macros on weekdays but as soon as the weekend hit I would undo all my hard work!

If you can keep that under control then you'll be able to get away with more weight loss on more calories. Also be aware of other things like sodium, water, glycogen all contribute to your bodies weight at any one time.


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## nWo (Mar 25, 2014)

Stef92 said:


> What do you mean by 'calorie is a calorie' approach? You taking anything aswell?


Eaten mostly whole foods, but also regularly eating crap that some people would look at you in horror for eating if they knew you were cutting. Not even had a diet plan tbh, just counted calories and protein. I am "assisted" but I don't see it relevant, the drugs are used to burn more calories and maintain muscle much more than anything else.


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## TheScam (Apr 30, 2013)

Dark sim said:


> You are over estimating your calorie expenditure and getting caught up on details. Worrying about metabolic damage...lol.
> 
> Stop worrying about BF %.
> 
> ...


You suggesting that's not something that could happen from years of eating low cals? I'm not saying its definitely the case but it's certainly what I experienced after at least 2 years of always trying to keep my calories around 1800 cals a day.

Some more info on it @Stef92 : Metabolism Massacre: 7 Ways To Avoid Undermining Your Fat Loss - Bodybuilding.com

Just something to consider - you know your body better than we do.

I do agree that you are probably over estimating calorific expenditure from exercise.

The BMR you posted sounds about right, you could err on the side of caution and use the lower of the 2


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## TheScam (Apr 30, 2013)

John. said:


> The most improtant thing is to get your weekend eating under control - that was my biggest issue with losing weight. Did not have a problem sticking to my macros on weekdays but as soon as the weekend hit I would undo all my hard work!
> 
> If you can keep that under control then you'll be able to get away with more weight loss on more calories. Also be aware of other things like sodium, water, glycogen all contribute to your bodies weight at any one time.


Agreed, weekends were killer for me at times. Alchohol the biggest one. I stopped drinking for a couple of months at the start of the year and the fat flew off.


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## Dark sim (May 18, 2013)

Scammell29 said:


> You suggesting that's not something that could happen from years of eating low cals? I'm not saying its definitely the case but it's certainly what I experienced after at least 2 years of always trying to keep my calories around 1800 cals a day.
> 
> Some more info on it @Stef92 : Metabolism Massacre: 7 Ways To Avoid Undermining Your Fat Loss - Bodybuilding.com
> 
> ...


No not suggesting that. If he has been low calories for long period (more than 6 months) then yeah I accept this can happen.


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## John. (Jun 24, 2013)

Scammell29 said:


> Agreed, weekends were killer for me at times. Alchohol the biggest one. I stopped drinking for a couple of months at the start of the year and the fat flew off.


Pretty much stopped drinking myself too. Even things like a takeaway within my macros is enough to upset my weeks progress. All that sodium.

As much as I am against clean eating, it does work!


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## TommyBananas (Nov 23, 2014)

Scammell29 said:


> You suggesting that's not something that could happen from years of eating low cals? I'm not saying its definitely the case but it's certainly what I experienced after at least 2 years of always trying to keep my calories around 1800 cals a day.
> 
> Some more info on it @Stef92 : Metabolism Massacre: 7 Ways To Avoid Undermining Your Fat Loss - Bodybuilding.com
> 
> ...


Stop posting so much b0llocks.

Another Look at Metabolic Damage | BodyRecomposition

"Specifically the men were put on 50% of their maintenance calories, subject to forced daily activity (walking, NO weight training) and basically had their lives controlled and managed for 6 months. And in various sub-analyses, it was found that, by the end of the study the total drop in metabolic rate was nearly 40%. That is, of the original 50% deficit in calories, 80% of it had been offset. Of that 40%, a full 25% was simply due to the reduced bodyweight. Again, lighter bodies burn less calories and there's no getting around it. But that also means that the adaptive component of metabolic rate reduction was only 15%. Which is about the largest drop ever measured (most studies measure less).

But here's the punchline, the men had also reached the limits of human leanness. They were in the realm of 4-5% body fat by this point in the study. Even though their fat loss had basically stopped (and at some points in the study WEIGHT loss stopped due to severe water retention) it didn't occur until they reached ultimate leanness (NB: the claims of bodybuilders to be 2-3% bodyfat is a measurement error). And even they were still losing tiny amounts of weight/fat. It just wouldn't have amounted to much since most of the deficit had been offset by the metabolic rate reduction."


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## Stef92 (Apr 16, 2015)

I said:


> Eaten mostly whole foods' date=' but also regularly eating crap that some people would look at you in horror for eating if they knew you were cutting. Not even had a diet plan tbh, just counted calories and protein. I am "assisted" but I don't see it relevant, the drugs are used to burn more calories and maintain muscle much more than anything else.[/quote']
> 
> What kind of food are you meaning when you say whole foods ?


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## TommyBananas (Nov 23, 2014)

Stef92 said:


> What kind of food are you meaning when you say whole foods ?


Chicken, Beef, Potatoes, Rice, Vegetables.

Nutritious foods, as long as the majority of your diet (70-80%) is those foods, the rest can be foods you enjoy if you *want*.


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## Dark sim (May 18, 2013)

TommyBananas said:


> Stop posting so much b0llocks.
> 
> Another Look at Metabolic Damage | BodyRecomposition
> 
> ...


This contradicts what Layne has to say on the matter. How do you feel about that?


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## Stef92 (Apr 16, 2015)

Dark sim said:


> It may need a little tweak to get you moving again, something like 100 kcal, could do it, but no guarantees.
> 
> Your calories aren't dangerously low, so wouldn't stop reducing yet. Have you tried any fat burners, over the counter or otherwise?
> 
> ...


What would be lowest calorie intake to drop too if there is no changes ?

I'm on Clen at the moment.

It is taking its toll on me now in terms of energy levels after dropping to 1950, so may ease up going twice a day 5 times a week and maybe just include some incline walks at the end of my weights a couple days a week and still go twice a day a couple days a week.


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## TommyBananas (Nov 23, 2014)

Dark sim said:


> This contradicts what Layne has to say on the matter. How do you feel about that?


Layne got absolutely fvcked by everyone when he tried to justify it, as there is only anecdotal evidence (which is not accurate) because studies were then done and people were under-reporting their food intake.

Layne just dug himself into a hole on that one and couldn't get out of it. 




__ https://www.facebook.com/AviBitterman/posts/10151730799732234



Avi Bitterman rekting people on the daaay-lee!


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## Stef92 (Apr 16, 2015)

TommyBananas said:


> Chicken, Beef, Potatoes, Rice, Vegetables.
> 
> Nutritious foods, as long as the majority of your diet (70-80%) is those foods, the rest can be foods you enjoy if you *want*.


Most of that is in my diet. Going to leave quark out the diet for a couple of weeks and go dairy free see if that makes any difference?! ??


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## TommyBananas (Nov 23, 2014)

Stef92 said:


> Most of that is in my diet. Going to leave quark out the diet for a couple of weeks and go dairy free see if that makes any difference?! ??


I'm not sure what you're asking, but if you're trying to lose weight, dairy, food sources, makes no difference. You need to eat less if you're not losing fat.


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## Dark sim (May 18, 2013)

Stef92 said:


> What would be lowest calorie intake to drop too if there is no changes ?
> 
> I'm on Clen at the moment.
> 
> It is taking its toll on me now in terms of energy levels after dropping to 1950, so may ease up going twice a day 5 times a week and maybe just include some incline walks at the end of my weights a couple days a week and still go twice a day a couple days a week.


HIIT can take its toll for sure, so swap for LISS for longer.

As for the lowest, I wouldn't like to say. Whatever you can manage on, as you still have room to reduce kcal before it becomes an issue imo.


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## Dark sim (May 18, 2013)

Stef92 said:


> Most of that is in my diet. Going to leave quark out the diet for a couple of weeks and go dairy free see if that makes any difference?! ??


No need to do this.


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## Stef92 (Apr 16, 2015)

John. said:


> The most improtant thing is to get your weekend eating under control - that was my biggest issue with losing weight. Did not have a problem sticking to my macros on weekdays but as soon as the weekend hit I would undo all my hard work!
> 
> If you can keep that under control then you'll be able to get away with more weight loss on more calories. Also be aware of other things like sodium, water, glycogen all contribute to your bodies weight at any one time.


contributes to weight i get that, but not fat surely? not bothered what i weigh on the scales more interested in what i look like (like most people i guess)


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## Dark sim (May 18, 2013)

TommyBananas said:


> Layne got absolutely fvcked by everyone when he tried to justify it, as there is only anecdotal evidence (which is not accurate) because studies were then done and people were under-reporting their food intake.
> 
> Layne just dug himself into a hole on that one and couldn't get out of it.
> 
> ...


So you're not a Layne fan boy anymore lol?

This is the problem for majority of people out there looking for answers. Who the fcuk do you trust/believe, when you have a study proving another study wrong, or one expert calling out another expert.


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## TommyBananas (Nov 23, 2014)

Dark sim said:


> So you're not a Layne fan boy anymore lol?
> 
> This is the problem for majority of people out there looking for answers. Who the fcuk do you trust/believe, when you have a study proving another study wrong, or one expert calling out another expert.


I'm a big Layne fan, he does great work - but he didn't provide any science for that. He just dug himself into a hole and also used the word damage, not adaptation which didn't help.










And as much as people don't like Blaha:


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## Dark sim (May 18, 2013)

Stef92 said:


> contributes to weight i get that, but not fat surely?


DW about water, sodium, and glycogen. These aren't a factor in fat loss.


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## Stef92 (Apr 16, 2015)

Dark sim said:


> HIIT can take its toll for sure, so swap for LISS for longer.
> 
> As for the lowest, I wouldn't like to say. Whatever you can manage on, as you still have room to reduce kcal before it becomes an issue imo.


how long is a reasonable time to do LISS? what's best or does it not matter? cross trainer or maybe an incline walk?


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## TommyBananas (Nov 23, 2014)

Stef92 said:


> how long is a reasonable time to do LISS? what's best or does it not matter? cross trainer or maybe an incline walk?


You're over thinking.

Do some exercise. Adjust calories when weight loss stalls for 2 weeks or so.


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## TheScam (Apr 30, 2013)

TommyBananas said:


> Stop posting so much b0llocks.
> 
> Another Look at Metabolic Damage | BodyRecomposition
> 
> ...


Fair enough, I'm happy to be proved wrong or at least shown another opinion on the matter. Thanks for the article.


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## Stef92 (Apr 16, 2015)

TommyBananas said:


> You're over thinking.
> 
> Do some exercise. Adjust calories when weight loss stalls for 2 weeks or so.


Probably am, just determined and want to achieve goals. As I do 20 mins HIIT then I was wondering if 30 minutes is equal or less/more work than a 20 min HIIT session. I don't want to go from doing HIIT to LISS but doing less work?


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## TommyBananas (Nov 23, 2014)

Stef92 said:


> Probably am, just determined and want to achieve goals. As I do 20 mins HIIT then I was wondering if 30 minutes is equal or less/more work than a 20 min HIIT session. I don't want to go from doing HIIT to LISS but doing less work?


Do whichever one you can sustain all the time. That will be the difference between getting where you want to be and not.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Stef92 said:


> contributes to weight i get that, but not fat surely? not bothered what i weigh on the scales more interested in what i look like (like most people i guess)


Not sure what you meant here. The suggestion/question was whether you may be sticking to a low calorie target during the week, but then eating rather more at weekends?

As others have said there is no reason to avoid dairy from a fat loss point of view. The only reason to do so would be a lactose intolerance which you don't have by the sounds of it.

1950 kcal per day is not crazy low by any means.


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## Stef92 (Apr 16, 2015)

Ultrasonic said:


> Not sure what you meant here. The suggestion/question was whether you may be sticking to a low calorie target during the week, but then eating rather more at weekends?
> 
> As others have said there is no reason to avoid dairy from a fat loss point of view. The only reason to do so would be a lactose intolerance which you don't have by the sounds of it.
> 
> 1950 kcal per day is not crazy low by any means.


This was in response to someone about sodium, water and glycogen.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Stef92 said:


> This was in response to someone about sodium, water and glycogen.


Ah, if you'd just quoted the relevant bit it would have been clearer :wink: .

And the answer to the question about weekend calories / diet consistency is?


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## Mclovin147 (Nov 11, 2013)

I made better progress when I stopped counting calories to be honest

Just aimed for 4 big/healthy high protein/carb meals each day and I gained well and lean, did this for well over 6 months.

Strength/Weight all went up while staying suprisingly lean.

No supplements, no tedious macro counting, just good old fashioned food and weights. Still no substitute for either of them.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Mclovin147 said:


> I made better progress when I stopped counting calories to be honest
> 
> Just aimed for 4 big/healthy high protein/carb meals each day and I gained well and lean, did this for well over 6 months.
> 
> ...


The OP is trying to lose weight not gain it...


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## Mclovin147 (Nov 11, 2013)

Ultrasonic said:


> The OP is trying to lose weight not gain it...


Yeah, I was speaking broadly and loosely to who ever gives a damn I guess lol (Thought it was general discussion on macro counting etc)

OP eat less, move more. <-- Weight loss 101 :thumbup1:


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## Dan94 (Dec 29, 2013)

dannythinx said:


> I have never counted macros. I have always eaten whatever I wanted. When bulking as per my avi I ate around 2800 cals a day to gain size as I was skinny as f. Now I'm cutting I'm eating 2000 cals a day from wherever and have dropped 16lbs in around 8 weeks. Spilt the cals 1000 per meal or thereabouts to make things easier. I honestly think IMO you just need to burn more cals then you are consuming to drop fat and there's nothing more to it then that


It is that simple


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## Stef92 (Apr 16, 2015)

Ultrasonic said:


> Ah, if you'd just quoted the relevant bit it would have been clearer :wink: .
> 
> And the answer to the question about weekend calories / diet consistency is?


I have a little more on the weekends but not in excess... Couple of hundred Cals over it still remain to hit macros (sometimes going over on fats!!)


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Stef92 said:


> Couple of hundred Cals over it still remain to hit macros (sometimes going over on fats!!)


Do you mean to hit an average daily calorie target for the week?


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## scottg2540 (Feb 26, 2013)

I am currently cutting and my weight loss has stalled got down to 12st 10lb an I have a physical job as a hod carrier myfitnesspal calculates I am burning 500+ cals a day at work I then do insanity max 30 five times a week plus gym 5 times a week calories are 1800-1900 a day protein 220 carbs 140 fat 50 says I should eat that amount to lose 2lb a week so surely if I am then burning 500 at work plus whatever I burn at gym and half an hours insanity surely I should be dropping weight no problem as I would be in a decent deficit ?


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

scottg2540 said:


> ...surely I should be dropping weight no problem as I would be in a decent deficit ?


If you aren't losing weight you aren't in a deficit. Eat less.


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## scottg2540 (Feb 26, 2013)

Well surely eating 1800 cals and burning 1000+ through daily work and exercise I should be in a deficit surely shouldn't be going much lower I know I am not loosing weight but how much lower should I go ?

I am using myfitnesspal and adjusting weekly according to my weight to loose 2lb a week says 1800 cals then when it calculates my exercise at work alone says I can eat the extra 500+ that I have burnt


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

No. If you aren't losing weight you aren't in a deficit.

You can either believe some calculator and make no progress, or believe the evidence from your scales/mirror and act accordingly. It's up to you.


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## scottg2540 (Feb 26, 2013)

Ultrasonic said:


> No. If you aren't losing weight you aren't in a deficit.
> 
> You can either believe some calculator and make no progress, or believe the evidence from your scales/mirror and act accordingly. It's up to you.


We'll definitely look much better than I did so if I cannot use the calculator to go by what do I use


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## Galaxy (Aug 1, 2011)

scottg2540 said:


> We'll definitely look much better than I did so if I cannot use the calculator to go by what do I use


If your not losing fat, simple eat less or do more exercise.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

scottg2540 said:


> We'll definitely look much better than I did so if I cannot use the calculator to go by what do I use


But has that improvement stopped like now your weight loss has stalled?


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## scottg2540 (Feb 26, 2013)

Galaxy said:


> If your not losing fat, simple eat less or do more exercise.


I understand what you's are saying but I am already exercising for 1 hour 30-45 mins every day surely I don't need more .


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## TommyBananas (Nov 23, 2014)

scottg2540 said:


> I understand what you's are saying but I am already exercising for 1 hour 30-45 mins every day surely I don't need more .


you need to stop eatiing so much, if you're not losing weight.

you're miscalculating your calories, probably.


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## Stef92 (Apr 16, 2015)

Ultrasonic said:


> Do you mean to hit an average daily calorie target for the week?


Not sure what you mean bud sorry? I meant I am maybe a couple hundred calories over on the weekends (per day) so around 2200 per day... Not every weekend just now and then..


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## scottg2540 (Feb 26, 2013)

Ultrasonic said:


> But has that improvement stopped like now your weight loss has stalled?


Hard to tell to be honest I have lost a lot of my mid section still got a bit to go off there and lower chest really


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## scottg2540 (Feb 26, 2013)

TommyBananas said:


> you need to stop eatiing so much, if you're not losing weight.
> 
> you're miscalculating your calories, probably.


Obviously something isn't quite right but as I am doing loads of daily exercise and job I thought I would easily loose the weight I have cut up quite a bit from starting point but still got some way to go but on the calories I am on now I find it hard to get through my days work plus the exercise feeling really lethargic I have used both myfitnesspal and iifym too work macros out


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Stef92 said:


> Couple of hundred Cals over *it still remain to hit macros* (sometimes going over on fats!!)


The bit in bold is what confused me. Anyway, just make sure you keep the weekend calories in check. You could consider having a planned refeed day once instead, where you eat your normal amount of protein and the rest of your calories from carbs with as little fat as possible, up to approximately your maintenance calorie level. High carb low fat means you shouldn't gain much fat doing this but it should increase leptin levels and help your BMR.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

scottg2540 said:


> I understand what you's are saying but I am already exercising for 1 hour 30-45 mins every day surely I don't need more .


Yeah, don't do more exercise, eat less.


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## scottg2540 (Feb 26, 2013)

Ultrasonic said:


> Yeah, don't do more exercise, eat less.


How many cals less and mainly carbs?


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

scottg2540 said:


> Hard to tell to be honest I have lost a lot of my mid section still got a bit to go off there and lower chest really


You'll have stopped losing fat, but if you want to track this more directly buy yourself some body fat calipers. Pay no attention to any calculated body fat percentage, but they can be useful for tracking progress.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

scottg2540 said:


> How many cals less and mainly carbs?


I'd try dropping 25g of carbs and see what happens.


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## Stef92 (Apr 16, 2015)

Ultrasonic said:


> The bit in bold is what confused me. Anyway, just make sure you keep the weekend calories in check. You could consider having a planned refeed day once instead, where you eat your normal amount of protein and the rest of your calories from carbs with as little fat as possible, up to approximately your maintenance calorie level. High carb low fat means you shouldn't gain much fat doing this but it should consult leptin levels and help your BMR.


Okay thanks for the advise. Was thinking giving carb cycling ago..? Is it based on 5 days or 7? I've done some research online and there's different variations


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

scottg2540 said:


> ...but on the calories I am on now I find it hard to get through my days work plus the exercise feeling really lethargic


Actually having seen this I'm going to change my mind and suggest you drop 100 kcal from protein and fat instead. Perhaps 5g fat and 14g protein. Not that I'm an expert you understand, but it's what I'd try. The most important thing to do is to drop total calories.


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## scottg2540 (Feb 26, 2013)

Ok will try and see what happens


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

scottg2540 said:


> Ok will try and see what happens


Just to explain, my thinking was that if you're already struggling for energy for your workouts then reducing carbs may make this worse, and you want to keep your weight training performance up to preserve muscle. Your protein and fat are at the higher end of reasonable recommendations, and so there is some scope to drop these. The following video has some discussion of the sort of ranges I have in mind if you're interested (from a what I consider a well informed source):


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Stef92 said:


> Okay thanks for the advise. Was thinking giving carb cycling ago..? Is it based on 5 days or 7? I've done some research online and there's different variations


Carb cycling isn't something I've tried so I can't really comment. Plenty of others here have though. You might get more people's opinion if you started a new thread specifically about carb cycling actually.


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## dannythinx (Oct 4, 2014)

Dan94 said:


> It is that simple


Haha, then you read all this bs about carb cycling and re feeding clean foods and dirty foods nutrient timing and a load of other sh1t that sells diet programs


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

dannythinx said:


> Haha, then you read all this bs about carb cycling and re feeding...


I would suggest it's not complete BS (never sure if people mean bull excrement or bro-science by this on here BTW!), but it certainly is of MUCH lower significance than maintaining a consistant calorie deficit. If you really want to get into it, have a read of the following series of articles:

Bodyweight Regulation: Leptin Part 1 | BodyRecomposition

The big unanswered question / unproved element for me is how often and how big refeeds need to be in order to have a positive effect.

However, high carb/low fat refeed days also have two other benefits:

1) Psychologically it is helpful for many to have a break from their diet.

2) Workout performance on the day of the refeed should be improved, which can help with muscle retention.

Loads of people use 'cheat days' to achieve these points, but a deliberately high carb/low fat day has the advantage of being much less likely to lead to significant fat gain, and because of its affect on leptin.

Edit: note I raised the possibility of refeeds above since the OP was already going over his target calories at weekends, and so thought I'd suggest a structured way of doing this as an alternative.


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## dannythinx (Oct 4, 2014)

Ultrasonic said:


> I would suggest it's not complete BS (never sure if people mean bull excrement or bro-science by this on here BTW!), but it certainly is of MUCH lower significance than maintaining a consistant calorie deficit. If you really want to get into it, have a read of the following series of articles:
> 
> Bodyweight Regulation: Leptin Part 1 | BodyRecomposition
> 
> ...


Thing is though if you are dieting but still eating food you want to eat then you don't need a break from your diet?

Over the last 10 weeks I have dropped around 18lbs on this cut but I still eat steak, fajitas, pizza, burgers, takeaway food etc. I went out for dinner yesterday and had a nacho starter then burritos.. I just make sure that my daily calories don't go above 2000 a day.. So eating what I want just less of it.. I'm absolutely no expert and this is the first time in my life I've tried to loose weight but just figured all diets from the well known companies like weight watchers etc are about cutting cals through smaller portions so that's all I'm doing


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

dannythinx said:


> Thing is though if you are dieting but still eating food you want to eat then you don't need a break from your diet?
> 
> Over the last 10 weeks I have dropped around 18lbs on this cut but I still eat steak, fajitas, pizza, burgers, takeaway food etc. I went out for dinner yesterday and had a nacho starter then burritos.. I just make sure that my daily calories don't go above 2000 a day.. So eating what I want just less of it.. I'm absolutely no expert and this is the first time in my life I've tried to loose weight but just figured all diets from the well known companies like weight watchers etc are about cutting cals through smaller portions so that's all I'm doing


I'm a flexible dieting / IIFYM guy and totally agree that breaks from a diet are less of an issue with this approach. But what refeed days still give you a break from is eating a low volume of food, likely eating a low amount of carbs, and potentially feeling hungry. The way I approach the refeed days I described (high carb [low sugar] and very low fat) they are actually more restrictive in terms of food choices than my low calorie days, but they allow me to eat different foods and more of it.

This is a very complex subject, and not one I'm in any sense an expert in either. But not one I'm prepared to completely discount. It is also one that likely becomes more important as someone gets leaner (see the article series I posted a link to above). I don't think there is any need for a typical Weighwatchers member to bother with this at all.


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## Guest (Apr 26, 2015)

Ultrasonic said:


> I'm a flexible dieting / IIFYM guy and totally agree that breaks from a diet are less of an issue with this approach. But what refeed days still give you a break from is eating a low volume of food, likely eating a low amount of carbs, and potentially feeling hungry. The way I approach the refeed days I described (high carb [low sugar] and very low fat) they are actually more restrictive in terms of food choices than my low calorie days, but they allow me to eat different foods and more of it.
> 
> This is a very complex subject, and not one I'm in any sense an expert in either. But not one I'm prepared to completely discount. It is also one that likely becomes more important as someone gets leaner (see the article series I posted a link to above). I don't think there is any need for a typical Weighwatchers member to bother with this at all.


I find refeed days make my hunger worse for days afterwards


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

AlQaholic said:


> I find refeed days make my hunger worse for days afterwards


Fair enough, I can see how that could happen. I don't find this myself though.

Carb cycling may well also be a smarter way to go, it's just not something I've really looked into.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

AlQaholic said:


> I find refeed days make my hunger worse for days afterwards


Out of interest, were your refeed days high in complex carbs (not too much sucrose or particularly fructose) and very low in fat, or more of a traditional 'cheat day'?


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## dirtymusket1 (May 24, 2008)

Bull Terrier said:


> It's not really so simple in my opinion. The human body doesn't work like this at all. Have a read of this article:
> 
> There Is No Such Thing As A "Calorie" (To Your Body)


Excellent read !


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## Stef92 (Apr 16, 2015)

Ultrasonic said:


> I'm a flexible dieting / IIFYM guy and totally agree that breaks from a diet are less of an issue with this approach. But what refeed days still give you a break from is eating a low volume of food, likely eating a low amount of carbs, and potentially feeling hungry. The way I approach the refeed days I described (high carb [low sugar] and very low fat) they are actually more restrictive in terms of food choices than my low calorie days, but they allow me to eat different foods and more of it.


Out of interest on your refeed days what do you tend to stack up on carb wise?


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## simonthepieman (Jun 11, 2012)

Bull Terrier said:


> It's not really so simple in my opinion. The human body doesn't work like this at all. Have a read of this article:
> 
> There Is No Such Thing As A "Calorie" (To Your Body)


one of the best things i've seen linked on here in ages


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Stef92 said:


> Out of interest on your refeed days what do you tend to stack up on carb wise?


The main things are crumpets, economy cornflakes (not regular ones as they have sugar added) and Snack a Jacks - all because they are high complex carb, low fat and low sugar). But I'll also have low fat junk like e.g. Pasta Mug Shots.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

@Stef92 In case you haven't picked this up from elsewhere I realise I don't think I've explained why you want to mainly stick to complex carbs if you try a refeed. It's because fructose doesn't stimulate leptin levels (so don't just have loads of fruit) and sucrose (regular sugar) is digested to 50% fructose, and the other 50% is the glucose you want. Complex carbs (starch) is digested into 100% glucose. So sugar isn't bad in terms of causing you to gain fat (I think) but it's not as effective from a leptin point of view.


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## Stef92 (Apr 16, 2015)

Ultrasonic said:


> @Stef92 In case you haven't picked this up from elsewhere I realise I don't think I've explained why you want to mainly stick to complex carbs if you try a refeed. It's because fructose doesn't stimulate leptin levels (so don't just have loads of fruit) and sucrose (regular sugar) is digested to 50% fructose, and the other 50% is the glucose you want. Complex carbs (starch) is digested into 100% glucose. So sugar isn't bad in terms of causing you to gain fat (I think) but it's not as effective from a leptin point of view.


I'll try sticking to non sugary carbs to be on the safe side! Is a refeed best to do on a workout or non workout day?


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Stef92 said:


> I'll try sticking to non sugary carbs to be on the safe side! Is a refeed best to do on a workout or non workout day?


On your toughest workout day, as the carbs should boost your performance and therefore help with muscle retention.


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## Guest (Apr 27, 2015)

Ultrasonic said:


> On your toughest workout day, as the carbs should boost your performance and therefore help with muscle retention.


Not if you train in the morning I would guess


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Allow yourself some sweet stuff if you fancy it BTW, but if you just stuffed your face with Haribo all day that wouldn't be optimal. Avoiding fat matters more as what you do eat will virtually all end up as body fat I think.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

AlQaholic said:


> Not if you train in the morning I would guess


Good point. It would depend how early someone trains and what they could eat beforehand I guess? What do you think?

(I train in the evening to it's any easier call for me.)


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## Stef92 (Apr 16, 2015)

Ultrasonic said:


> On your toughest workout day, as the carbs should boost your performance and therefore help with muscle retention.


Would say legs or chest then... I was hoping I could refeed on a weekend as that is where I tend to fall off the wagon.. Monday to Friday I'm fine! So say I did a refeed on a Saturday or Sunday then it would kind of feel like I'm having something different!


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## Stef92 (Apr 16, 2015)

Ultrasonic said:


> Allow yourself some sweet stuff if you fancy it BTW, but if you just stuffed your face with Haribo all day that wouldn't be optimal. Avoiding fat matters more as what you do eat will virtually all end up as body fat I think.


It's not the haribo, it's the chocolate and cake  haha! Have to find some low fat chocolate somewhere eh...


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Stef92 said:


> Would say legs or chest then... I was hoping I could refeed on a weekend as that is where I tend to fall off the wagon.. Monday to Friday I'm fine! So say I did a refeed on a Saturday or Sunday then it would kind of feel like I'm having something different!


Train at the weekend maybe? If not refeed on Sunday and make Monday leg day (if you're using a body part split routine which it sounds like you are).


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Stef92 said:


> It's not the haribo, it's the chocolate and cake  haha! Have to find some low fat chocolate somewhere eh...


Have those on other days of the week. Or forget about refeeds entirely, this is no magic fix at all, just something that might make a small difference. By a huge margin it is total calories that matters. Just make sure if you have e.g. chocolate or cake your keep track of exactly how much you have. It's far too easy to waste a week's good work by overindulging at weekends.


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## Stef92 (Apr 16, 2015)

Ultrasonic said:


> The main things are crumpets, economy cornflakes (not regular ones as they have sugar added) and Snack a Jacks - all because they are high complex carb, low fat and low sugar). But I'll also have low fat junk like e.g. Pasta Mug Shots.


Nice one for the ideas... Stocked up on tesco valure corn flakes and rice pudding today... Also the mugshot pastas and noodles with under 1g fat! Cheers buddy


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