# HPTA recovery a MYTH?



## tuna_man (Nov 24, 2009)

To anyone who has done cycles, especially any bros who have had post cycle bloodwork.

Theres a theory that after any real steroid cycle (i.e. shutdown/suppression), once u have used steroids ur HPTA axis will NEVER recover to the levels it was at before steroid use.

I know it sounds depressing but im starting to believe this theory, that you can never fully recover test production. I have my own ideas why this might be, but its possibly related to long term changes in the hypothalamic GnRH cells' sensitivity/function, and also even possible atrophy of gnrh neurons or pituitary gonadotropes.

Also, when people talk about inhibition, they often ignore 'ultra-short loop inhibition', where a hormone can have a direct inhibitory effect on the endocrine gland itself e.g. the exogenous steroids directly act on the testes aswell to reduce test production.

I am favouring this upsetting theory because i dont know anyone who had precycle bloods before first ever cycle, but after any cycles and PCT, i have not seen a single person whose test levels when off all chemicals including SERMS/AIs is above 5-600ng/dl (17-21 nmol/dl) after a long time off, and most peoples is lower than this.

I know people say 'u dont know the test level to begin so u cant compare', but honestly, for otherwise healthy young men, is it a coincidence that all who used AAS somehow have mediocre or low test levels, not high normal ones?

This applies more to people who wanna cycle for a bit, then not have to rely on TRT for rest of life.

Someone Please tell me that im wrong?


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## Uriel (Oct 14, 2008)

I always planned on going on gear for life in my 40's, I'll add Ghfor life in 4 or 5 years too


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## tuna_man (Nov 24, 2009)

Fair play mate, but i just sometimes feel bit paranoid about if u had to rely on gear, what if it was no longer available and then ud be at mercy of ignorant/ single minded doctors. Also for someone in early twentys in theory cud u handle jabs for rest of life i.e. would u run out of places or accrue too much scar tissue/fibrous lumps so can no longer inject Into muscel?


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## Uriel (Oct 14, 2008)

tuna_man said:


> Fair play mate, but i just sometimes feel bit paranoid about if u had to rely on gear, what if it was no longer available and then ud be at mercy of ignorant/ single minded doctors. Also for someone in early twentys in theory cud u handle jabs for rest of life i.e. would u run out of places or accrue too much scar tissue/fibrous lumps so can no longer inject Into muscel?


i wouldn't cycle when I was young really, I didn't need to. I loved training natty.

I feel you should take care of your self when you are young and add dodgy **** as you age as it has less time to fuk you up

I won't care to do gear when Im much over 65 probably as my skelleton will be too ****ed to train. I'll just do heroin then lol


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## tuna_man (Nov 24, 2009)

Sound advice Uriel, LMAO at ur plans for later life


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## BillC (Jun 11, 2009)

tuna_man said:


> To anyone who has done cycles, especially any bros who have had post cycle bloodwork.
> 
> Theres a theory that after any real steroid cycle (i.e. shutdown/suppression), once u have used steroids ur HPTA axis will NEVER recover to the levels it was at before steroid use.
> 
> ...


Until you know the results pre roids, it's all conjecture. I'll throw this one at you though, maybe those who do steroids feel the need to *because* they have low levels already and the low levels just persist after. Mine have always been low and if I could recover to a low 17, I'd be friggin ecstatic. Docs had me convinced my test levels were fine, that I don't grow beard hair (get bumfluff taches though ) because thats the way I am, it's not hormonal, yet after doing a nice 15 week course, I'm shaving a beard off every morning. If I had a better source, I'd be on for life now I know the difference - not for bbing but as trt.


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

the biggest problem with most young guys is they don't come off long enough.....

the other issue is that many believe that by the end of PCT they will be fully recovered and this is just not true time off is the only way to get full recovery.....and i am talking months....i have just had 8months off and had bloods taken so will know on tuesday where the levels are....

plus you have to remember for some like me who started when they was 18 my test levels where high but now at 39 even with no steroids would be lower....


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## tuna_man (Nov 24, 2009)

Pscarb, good luck with ur results mate i hope it goes well 4u. Il be checkin on UKM, but i appreciate ur personal health is private so u myt not wanto put them up.

As for the not comin off long enough, i agree with u entirely and i commend u for comin off for that long especially when BBing is a big part of ur life.

I am just curious as to why it seems that T levels dont quite normalise fully or if they eventually do, and i beleiv this should be an area that the medical community should be researching as it has implications for all hormones


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## Peter80 (Apr 8, 2009)

I personally wouldnt care much about the T number itself 15 or 22 whatever. Recovery is about feeling normal again. Like you felt before the gear. Or just feeling good.

There are tons off guys who were on for a long time, even TRT for years and made a restart and felt normal again. Its just that they dont post a lott and have moved on in there life. Woman who are on the pill for years on end and stop seem to recover too.

There is a sticky thread on here too about recovery. The protocol was set up by Dr. Scally who has threated a whole lott off guys with ASIH. Almost everybody recoverd after that protocol and enough time off.

My personal experience is that after me blasting and cruising for 2 years straight and being in my late 20's now even after a complete year off my numbers came back low normal. I recently did the protocol mentioned above and will do bloodtest soon to see if my number have gone up. Do i feel normal? No i dont. Do i feel good/great? Some days. I hope that i make improvements in time and life will be "normal" again.


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## Old but not out (Sep 8, 2009)

tuna_man said:


> To anyone who has done cycles, especially any bros who have had post cycle bloodwork.
> 
> Theres a theory that after any real steroid cycle (i.e. shutdown/suppression), once u have used steroids ur HPTA axis will NEVER recover to the levels it was at before steroid use.
> 
> ...


WRONG - I have had bloods done before I ever started a cycle (at 23) and then bloods done at 38 (6 weeks after a 5 week dianabol course) and my levels were higher at 38 (32 ng/dl) than at 23 (29 ng/dl)!!!

I have had one bad recovery experience in my years of taking gear - around 12 cycles in 17 years - longest 12 weeks, shortest 4 weeks. That was after a 6-week T -prop cycle and interestingly was the only time I had ever attempted any form of PCT!

Also the abstract at the link below shows individuals ALL recovered to pre-cycle levels after PCT

http://www.medibolics.com/ScallyVergelAstractHPGA.pdf


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## Peter80 (Apr 8, 2009)

Thats a really cool post Old.


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## Andy Dee (Jun 1, 2008)

Im not suprised its a myth, i dont know anyone whos ever been off long enough to actually find it out:lol:


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## Old but not out (Sep 8, 2009)

The HPTA of rats is identical to our own as is the structure of their testicles - rats who have their testosterone production shutdown for 1/3 of their life actually recover to higher levels of testosterone than rats of the same age who have not had testosterone induce suppression of their HPTA.

http://www.ergo-log.com/continuous.html

The reason so many blood tests only show low/normal T levels on forums such as this may simply be explained by the fact that individuals who have measurements done are those who's recovery is poor and need to seek medical advice?


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## Peter80 (Apr 8, 2009)

But what else can a doctor do then put you on SERMS and/off HCG HMG? Trying to make recovery possible.


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## BigDom86 (Jul 27, 2008)

Old but not out said:


> The HPTA of rats is identical to our own as is the structure of their testicles - rats who have their testosterone production shutdown for 1/3 of their life actually recover to higher levels of testosterone than rats of the same age who have not had testosterone induce suppression of their HPTA.
> 
> http://www.ergo-log.com/continuous.html
> 
> The reason so many blood tests only show low/normal T levels on forums such as this may simply be explained by the fact that individuals who have measurements done are those who's recovery is poor and need to seek medical advice?


thanks for that information ill add it to a paper im writing for uni


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

andysutils said:


> Im not suprised its a myth, i dont know anyone whos ever been off long enough to actually find it out:lol:


i have.....



Old but not out said:


> The HPTA of rats is identical to our own as is the structure of their testicles - rats who have their testosterone production shutdown for 1/3 of their life actually recover to higher levels of testosterone than rats of the same age who have not had testosterone induce suppression of their HPTA.
> 
> http://www.ergo-log.com/continuous.html
> 
> The reason so many blood tests only show low/normal T levels on forums such as this may simply be explained by the fact that individuals who have measurements done are those who's recovery is poor and need to seek medical advice?


can you point me to the actual study please as this site really just gives the science behind what should happen i would like to see the actual study as i have crashed and carried out very good PCT plans but still took me months to fully recover......

having raised test levels after a 30-40dday PCT is not uncommon but then HPTA recovery is gauged on much more than just test levels when you had you levels checked what was your LH/FSH readings compared to before you used steroids??


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## Old but not out (Sep 8, 2009)

Pscarb said:


> i have.....
> 
> can you point me to the actual study please as this site really just gives the science behind what should happen i would like to see the actual study as i have crashed and carried out very good PCT plans but still took me months to fully recover......
> 
> having raised test levels after a 30-40dday PCT is not uncommon but then HPTA recovery is gauged on much more than just test levels when you had you levels checked what was your LH/FSH readings compared to before you used steroids??


The actual study was published here; Proceedings National Academy Science USA. 1999 Dec 21;96(26):14877-81.

In terms of my LH and FSH levels I apologize I could not tell you. On both occasions I had blood tests for testosterone only (plus IGF on the second test) - no tests were done for LH/FSH. The purpose of the tests on each occasion was not to diagnose recovery but as a part of a research study on the health effects of anabolic steroids. irrespective of LH and FSH levels over the 11 cycles of steroids I had used in the time between studies I had more than full recovery of my testosterone levels. In the second study I actually had higher testosterone than any individual in the over thirty range including the controls who had never used steroids. As well as good T levels I had all the subjective signs of good recovery and these stayed with me through to my next cycle (around 14 months). This makes me believe that full recovery is possible. Though I hasten to add it will be affected by factors that we all know about - time on cycle, compounds used etc, as well as nutrition and possibly the most important factor never discussed - body composition. In my experience (and I have sampled literally 100's of individuals) age does not make that much difference to testosterone. The relationship is better related to body composition. A large degree of amortization of testosterone to estrogen occurs in abdominal fat. This excessive estrogen shuts down T production in "fat" men. The age related decline in T is in reality a fat related decline and fatness increases (in most) as we age. Individuals who have still have low body fat at 40 still have good testosterone levels (unless they are endurance athletes). (I know this is off topic but I thought it interesting and at least a little relevant to recovery).

In terms of good PCT - despite the abstract link I placed here earlier I cannot comment - the only bad recovery I every had was after the only cycle that included any PCT at all. Time is the important factor in my opinion. I also believe many individuals are so stressed about recovery that this itself actually impacts on recovery. In terms of the subjective feelings of recovery - I have spoken to many long term steroid users who were unsure of what "normal" felt like and actually judge their recovery on regaining the sex drive they had whilst using 500 mg of test a week!


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## benki11 (Sep 17, 2010)

Pscarb said:


> the biggest problem with most young guys is they don't come off long enough.....
> 
> the other issue is that many believe that by the end of PCT they will be fully recovered and this is just not true time off is the only way to get full recovery.....and i am talking months....i have just had 8months off and had bloods taken so will know on tuesday where the levels are....
> 
> plus you have to remember for some like me who started when they was 18 my test levels where high but now at 39 even with no steroids would be lower....


sorry for bumpin such a old thread but wonder

after 8 months off , but honestly what did you find

that Tuesday , your BloodWork , you recoverd or not Pscarb?


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

benki11 said:


> sorry for bumpin such a old thread but wonder
> 
> after 8 months off , but honestly what did you find
> 
> that Tuesday , your BloodWork , you recoverd or not Pscarb?


 you're asking me about something that happened 3yrs ago  i can't remember what i did last week at the moment


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## Mars (Aug 25, 2007)

tuna_man said:


> To anyone who has done cycles, especially any bros who have had post cycle bloodwork.
> 
> *Theres a theory* that after any real steroid cycle (i.e. shutdown/suppression), once u have used steroids ur HPTA axis will NEVER recover to the levels it was at before steroid use.
> 
> ...


Plenty of these on BBing forums, majority of them are BS, just like that one.

There are plenty of studies if you are prepared to spend money on the literature that show the HPTA does recover.


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## Bull Terrier (May 14, 2012)

I don't have a link but testosterone was trialled for use as male contraceptive (I think - but may be wrong at 300mg per week).

Everybody recovered their normal HPTA function within a few months without using HCG/Clomid/Nolvadex, i.e. there was no permanent damage done.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Well, I have used steroids when I was 22 to 23, and from 43 to 50's.

I do not notice any difference now, than before like 10 years ago.

I have no proof, but I still have a normal libido, I still get night time wood, and actually more than I did 10 years ago but I think that is due to the Vitamin D I am taking.

I have no blood to prove it but I feel great, and have a pretty good libido, and night time erections, so I do feel that I have no issues with lower T output.


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

i was on cycle in 2010 for 12 months as i competed, i came off in december and stayed off for 5 months used small amount of HCG and Prov nothing else in that 5 months, i went back on a 8 week cycle at the start of April it was a Test/Tren cycle 7 weeks into that cycle me and my wife conceived our 3rd child....not everything is written in stone guys....


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## Gymrat12 (Aug 9, 2020)

Pscarb said:


> you're asking me about something that happened 3yrs ago  i can't remember what i did last week at the moment


 Okey then what about asking you 12 years later :smoke:


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