# shake advise..



## curtis1 (Jan 18, 2009)

I have just been reading a journal and someone advised that to loose belly fat they should consume 1gr protein per pnd in weight and aim for 12/14 calories per pnd also.

I weigh 189 lbs which means i need to consume 200 grams protein and 2400 calories..

My concern is that the mammoth 2500 shake i use is 2500 calories in two shakes so does this mean im destined to have a fat belly forever or do i need to drop one and eat some more chicken!!! as i need to stay in calorific deficite to loose weight??

Or shall i just have both shakes consume my xtra 200grams of protein from food and cyle my **** off a bit more!! :lol:


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## J87 (Nov 27, 2010)

Be in a calorie deficit, do some cardio.

Buy some basic whey to meet your protein needs not a calorie dense meal replacement effort.


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## Andrew Jacks (Sep 29, 2010)

curtis1 said:


> as i need to stay in calorific deficite to loose weight??


The shakes should be exchanged for proper food, use exercises to give you a deficit to loose weigh, eat some fruit first thing to get your metabolism going then try a cardio session up the gym, do not eat until you really are unable to bear it anymore, do this along with some seated side twists with a broom handle to work the obliques and pull the belly up from the sides


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## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

Andrew Jacks said:


> *The shakes should be exchanged for proper food*, use exercises to give you a deficit to loose weigh, eat some fruit first thing to get your metabolism going then try a cardio session up the gym, do not eat until you really are unable to bear it anymore, do this along with some seated side twists with a broom handle to work the obliques and pull the belly up from the sides


Good advice (the bit in bold), the rest not so. You could do ab exercises till your blue in the face and you won't have abs unless you have low bodyfat levels - you can't "spot reduce" fat by doing things like crunches etc.

A good caloric deficit is easier to create with diet, rather than lots of activity that can lead to burn-out. For example, an intense gym session for 1.5-2hrs only burns around 500kcal, much easier just to eat 500kcal less than keep up an exercise schedule like that!


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## Andrew Jacks (Sep 29, 2010)

Fact is if go below 10% deficit your body will slow your metabolic rate to compensate, you also need to include the calories you burn in the gym to your Dailey allowance, before trying to deduct 10%. So it is far easier to eat a stable diet and use the exercise up the gym as the diet most sessions should give a few hundred calories deficit, plus the afterburn.

Simples


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## HJL (Apr 26, 2009)

Andrew Jacks said:


> The shakes should be exchanged for proper food, use exercises to give you a deficit to loose weigh, eat some fruit first thing to get your metabolism going then try a cardio session up the gym, do not eat until you really are unable to bear it anymore, do this along with some seated side twists with a broom handle to work the obliques and pull the belly up from the sides


not sure what you mean by pull the belly up from the sides? I would also not advice eating only once you can't bear it anymore. Regular small meals will keep your metabolism high.


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## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

Andrew Jacks said:


> Fact is if go below 10% deficit your body will slow your metabolic rate to compensate, you also need to include the calories you burn in the gym to your Dailey allowance, before trying to deduct 10%. So it is far easier to eat a stable diet and use the exercise up the gym as the diet most sessions should give a few hundred calories deficit, plus the afterburn.
> 
> Simples


I'm sorry but I don't agree, metabolism does drop in response to a diet, but not immeadiately. And it can never truely compensate, or a caloric deficit would never work. But it's proven to do so.

Training whilst on a diet should be focused to maintaining what muscle mass you have, therfore it needs to be heavy and intense to give you body a reason to hang onto it - rather than metabolic type training as you're suggesting. It's far easier to be consistent with diet than activity, total daily energy expenditure will never be exactly the same.

Anyway, to the original poster:

Yes, if you want to lose fat you need to be in a calorie deficit, you also need to be getting enough protein, preferably from proper foods. Getting 2500 cals from a shake full of whey and refined carbs is no way to go about trying to get lean.


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## 2004mark (Oct 26, 2013)

2400 calories is quite easy to consume without needing any shakes, never mind 2 bulk shakes. Also why are you drinking such calorie dense shakes if you are trying to loose weight?


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## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

HJL said:


> not sure what you mean by pull the belly up from the sides? I would also not advice eating only once you can't bear it anymore. *Regular small meals will keep your metabolism high*.


No they don't. 3 or 6 meals, it doesn't matter. Whichever makes you stick to the diet.


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## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

2004mark said:


> 2400 calories is quite easy to consume without needing any shakes, never mind 2 bulk shakes. Also why are you drinking such calorie dense shakes if you are trying to loose weight?


Exactly.


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## Andrew Jacks (Sep 29, 2010)

HJL said:


> not sure what you mean by pull the belly up from the sides? I would also not advice eating only once you can't bear it anymore. Regular small meals will keep your metabolism high.


One of the biggest problems with this forum is everyone presumes everyone is an athlete, for example advising a person with a beer belly to do crunches, just shows you have never seen a person with a beer belly trying to do these, the belly gets in the way, the solution is start with something like this

http://www.muscleandstrength.com/exercises/seated-barbell-twist.html

With regards to eating, if you read what I said, it was to eat something small first thing to kick your metabolism into life then to burn energy, the regular small meals manta sounds very good but is not going to help someone looking to loose weight, not eating and exercising will, the PDF boys lurk around the forums handing out the same info they use never adopting it to different builds or ages, basically telling everyone to do what they do, not a dig HJL, just a general observation.


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## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

Andrew, I don't see anyone here advocating crunches or core work in general besides you, and it has little influence on fat loss, especially around the abdominal region.

If you want to lose fat you need to be in an energy deficit, end of.

Also, you concept of metabolism is erroneous. Having a small meal at the Start of of the day won't "kick the metabolism into life" neither does small meals throughout the day "Stoke the metabolism". Total daily energy expenditure is dependant on activity and diet plus a few other factors, but your TEF (or thermal effect of feeding) is dependant upon the total amount of calories you take in, rather than when or how many meals you take it over.

Your advice is almost as dogmatic as the so called "PDF" boys.


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## defdaz (Nov 11, 2007)

Drop the mass gainer drink dude, stick with low fat healthy food (and a variety, don't just have chicken and boiled rice ffs) and a couple of whey protein drinks a day. 2k / 2.5k kcal's a day and monitor your progress. If not dropping enough either up the cardio or drop the calories.


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## curtis1 (Jan 18, 2009)

TIME	FOOD CALORIES PROTEIN	CARBS

8AM	SP K WITH MILK 3EGGS 552 36 38

11AM	CHICKEN BREAST,100G PASTA ,BANNANA 654 74 36

2PM	CHICKEN BREAST,100G GREEN BEANS 368 66 4

5PM	GAMMON 2 EGGS 523 67.5

8PM	SHAKE 240 50 4

9.30PM	COTTAGE CHEESE 140 12 15

TOTAL 2477 305.5 97

Just sat down and worked out a new diet plan going to swap out the gainer for clean protein shake.

working out 4x a week and cardio 4 times a week i usually burn 500 calories cardio so will be in deficit just not sure it will be to much of a defict due to workouts to.

hows that looking im just concerned i will loose muscle as this is about 1000/1500k less than my usual daily diet


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## Lou (Jul 27, 2008)

bayman said:


> Good advice (the bit in bold), the rest not so. You could do ab exercises till your blue in the face and you won't have abs unless you have low bodyfat levels - *you can't "spot reduce" fat by doing things like crunches etc*.
> 
> There are studies that show that spot reduction is possible.
> 
> ...


Before you drop calories your work rate should be increased first if you want to retain your hard earned muscle, add fasted cardio in the AM.


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## Lou (Jul 27, 2008)

curtis1 said:


> I have just been reading a journal and someone advised that to loose belly fat they should consume 1gr protein per pnd in weight and aim for 12/14 calories per pnd also.
> 
> I weigh 189 lbs which means i need to consume 200 grams protein and 2400 calories..
> 
> ...


Drop the Mammoth Shake.....its a WEIGHT GAINER with a sh!tload of carbs you REALLY don't need.

Try 1.5gr protein per lb of bodyweight, 2gr per lb of bodyweight in carbs 0.5gr per lb bodyweight good fats; plenty fresh veg, NO FRUIT, use skimmed milk for tea & coffee. Cut ALL bread and pasta from your diet and ALL refined sugar.

Use CNP Pro-Recover post work out.

Do 20-30 minutes of cardio BEFORE breakfast..... see how you go


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## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

Lou said:


> Before you drop calories your work rate should be increased first if you want to retain your hard earned muscle, add fasted cardio in the AM.


Lou that study from T-nation is so new it only came out today! I would want more evidence than one article for me to be convinced, especially given t-nation's history of exaggerated claims (Anaconda anyone?).

And I don't see how increasing your work rate first would help you hang on to muscle any better? Sufficient protein and a training stimulus (weigh training) give your body the reason to hold onto it.


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## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

Lou said:


> Drop the Mammoth Shake.....its a WEIGHT GAINER with a sh!tload of carbs you REALLY don't need.
> 
> Try 1.5gr protein per lb of bodyweight, 2gr per lb of bodyweight in carbs 0.5gr per lb bodyweight good fats; plenty fresh veg, *NO FRUIT*, use skimmed milk for tea & coffee. Cut ALL bread and pasta from your diet and ALL refined sugar.
> 
> ...


Interested in your reasoning for ditching fruit? And you advise cutting all sugar, yet CNP pro recover is loaded with refined carbs...


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## curtis1 (Jan 18, 2009)

Hi Lou thanks for the advise i have dropped the mammoth and ordered some cnp for post workout.

I have also dropped my carbs to about 100 gramms which i hope will be a good thing, all my carbs are being sourced from vegetables but i am still having a small amount of fruit, I am doing farsted 40min cardio every morning 5x a week which is burning up 500/600 calories plus my workouts in the gym. My concern is that i probably need to increase my calorific intake as im prob burning 1000k just from workouts let alone from my job.

Do you have any suggestions?

I have only been running this for a few days so need to run it for while to see, but no strength loss and as i use no2 pre workout my weights sessions are still good even though i have dropped carbs a lot!! i have also changed my diet a

TIME	FOOD CALORIES	PROTEIN CARBS

8AM	SP K WITH MILK 3EGGS glass milk 682 49 56

11AM	CHICKEN BREAST,100G MIXED VEG ,BANNAN 380 74 8

2PM	CHICKEN BREAST,100G MIXED VEG 380 66 8

5PM	GAMMON 2 EGGS glass milk 660 80 14

8PM	SHAKE with milk 380 64 18

9.30PM	COTTAGE CHEESE 140 12 6

TOTAL 2622 345 110



Lou said:


> Drop the Mammoth Shake.....its a WEIGHT GAINER with a sh!tload of carbs you REALLY don't need.
> 
> Try 1.5gr protein per lb of bodyweight, 2gr per lb of bodyweight in carbs 0.5gr per lb bodyweight good fats; plenty fresh veg, NO FRUIT, use skimmed milk for tea & coffee. Cut ALL bread and pasta from your diet and ALL refined sugar.
> 
> ...


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## Virtus (Apr 30, 2007)

bayman said:


> Interested in your reasoning for ditching fruit? And you advise cutting all sugar, yet CNP pro recover is loaded with refined carbs...


Because glucose is absored faster into the system than fructose. The idea of using glucose after a workout is to elevate the blood sugar levels very quickly, which causes the pancreas to release the insulin. Insulin's will then function to regulate the blood sugar levels as well as delivering the glusoce and proteins to the muscles where they are required. Suprised you haven't read a study on that


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## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

Virtus said:


> Because glucose is absored faster into the system than fructose. The idea of using glucose after a workout is to elevate the blood sugar levels very quickly, which causes the pancreas to release the insulin. Insulin's will then function to regulate the blood sugar levels as well as delivering the glusoce and proteins to the muscles where they are required. Suprised you haven't read a study on that


Ha, very good. I was more interested in the conflict of advice given rather than the incorrect Biology lesson you just tried to deliver.

I know very well the proposed thought behind simple carbs after a workout, however, if you knew anything you'd also know that Whey by itself is very insulinogenic. You would also be aware that nutrients are absorbed PWO even in the absence of big insulin spikes thanks to GLUT4 receptors amongst other things.

Finally you also might have discovered that Fructose is actually beneficial post workout due to the very fact it refills hepatic (Liver) glycogen first. Full hepatic stores mean more carbs actually go towards refilling muscle glycogen. So it's actually more anabolic to have a mixture of glucose and fructose PWO than a single source of either.

Sounds like you need to go do some reading champ...


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## Virtus (Apr 30, 2007)

I don't need to any research bud, see unlike some who read every study going i have my own study which is 15 years of experience


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## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

Virtus said:


> I don't need to any research bud, see unlike some who read every study going i have my own study which is 15 years of experience


Classic. You can't find fault with my argument so you defer to anecdotal evidence. That really is weak man.

Research is useful as it tells you the mode of action of things so that you can apply it in the real world. If you take the weight of evidence on the whole you can see why something works rather than just relying on trial and error, optimise things quicker. That's why it's useful. It also makes you less prone to the scam nature of the bodybuilding / supplements industry as you can actually decide yourself whether there's any merit to the claims.

If you're gonna make claims, you need to back it up with evidence. Can you not see the irony in the advice I challenged above?


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## Virtus (Apr 30, 2007)

bayman said:


> Ha, very good. I was more interested in the conflict of advice given rather than the incorrect Biology lesson you just tried to deliver.
> 
> I know very well the proposed thought behind simple carbs after a workout, however, if you knew anything you'd also know that Whey by itself is very insulinogenic. You would also be aware that nutrients are absorbed PWO even in the absence of big insulin spikes thanks to GLUT4 receptors amongst other things.
> 
> ...


This is my problem with all your posts; you have no general concept of basic bodybuilding and will result everything to a science Q&A session. Your initital quesion was why ditch fruit but have Pro Recover PWO, and my answer was not an incorrect biology lesson at all; because glucose is absorbed faster than fructose.

But no, you have to go off on one again. Going on about the GLUT4 receptor and transportation of nutrients regardless of insulin spike; that is not the only purpose of PWO, what about the acceleration of carbohydrate resynthesis, increase glycogen storage and increase protein repair due to the insulin release.

And not once did i say not to include fructose PWO, i stated a fact that the absorbtion of glucose is faster than that of fructose. A ratio of 2:1 of glucose/furctose mixed with protein is now the talk of PWO nutrition. But like i said, after 15 years of experience i know what works for me, and that is a 2:1 ration of Protein and Glucose only.

I know that you are really happy with yourself that you post on here and turn the simplest answer on its head and go off on a tangent to suit you and scientific facts; but truthfully its boring and quite sad that you require yourself to be proved right all the time when you have no experience accept a couple of data sheets.


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## curtis1 (Jan 18, 2009)

Nice to see this site hasnt changed!! little advice and loads of bickering excellent.


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## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

Virtus said:


> This is my problem with all your posts; you have no general concept of basic bodybuilding and will result everything to a science Q&A session.


I understand basic bodybuilding very well: Progressive overload of resistance (volume or weight) with a decent diet, pretty simple.

And the reason I have to keep turning everything into a "science Q&A" is the likes of you and others on here keep rolling out snippets of information like they are fact, when in fact there's no evidence behind your claims. There's so much misinformation out there for someone who doesn't know any better and it's perfectly highlighted by the advice in this thread, bringing me on to:



Virtus said:


> *Your initital quesion was why ditch fruit but have Pro Recover PWO,* and my answer was not an incorrect biology lesson at all; because glucose is absorbed faster than fructose.


This wasn't what I was interested in - the speed of glucose absorbtion verses fructose absorbtion that is. I wanted to know specifically why the recommendation ditch a food (fruit) from the diet, which is proven to be beneficial in many ways. Then contradict yourself (well not you, but Lou) by recommending a sugary PWO shake?

Which leads us on to:



Virtus said:


> But no, you have to go off on one again. Going on about the GLUT4 receptor and transportation of nutrients regardless of insulin spike; that is not the only purpose of PWO, what about the acceleration of carbohydrate resynthesis, increase glycogen storage and increase protein repair due to the insulin release.


Well if you've had a meal or shake PRE workout insulin levels will already be elevated, so there is no specific need to "spike" insulin post workout to absorb nutrients. The reason I mentioned GLUT4 was to show nutrients can be absorbed in the absence of said spike, which you seem fully unaware of.

Now carbohydrate resynthesis and glucogen storage are the same thing as far as I'm aware, and you only need worry about speed of glycogen replenishment if you're training multiple times per day aka an athlete. Otherwise diet over the proceeding 24hrs can sort this out. To reiterate: THERE IS NO SPECIFIC NEED FOR A PWO "RECOVERY" SHAKE. People were getting jacked long before there were such things. To further reinforce my point:



Alan Aragon said:


> The small differences are mainly geared toward simplifying the guidelines. The rest of the recommendations about food types are pretty much the same. Also note that I no longer give a damn about GI, it doesn't really make a difference one way or another. If you want high GI carbs pre and/or during training, go for it. As time has passed, GI has proven itself to be a worthless, irrelevant index. *Insulinogenesis is a separate issue, and slight elevations during & postworkout is a great idea. This accomplished by both food type & food amount, the latter being more important. To boot, the necessary insulin elevations for maximal net gains in protein balance are easily met without specific attempts at spiking it up. *There's obviously a lot more to this, but that's the important basics. The rest is fringe.


I suggest you go do some reading of Alan Aragon's free available online content, he post lots of good information, all supported by peer reviewed research (and you know how much I love research) too...



Virtus said:


> I know that you are really happy with yourself that you post on here and turn the simplest answer on its head and go off on a tangent to suit you and scientific facts; but truthfully its boring and quite sad that you require yourself to be proved right all the time when you have no experience accept a couple of data sheets.


I'm happy that I keep giving people reason to question the bodybuilder dogma you and others on here continue to give out. I don't need to be proved right, ditching a whole host of crappy advice I regulary see given out to newbs and lesser experienced trainers has had no negatives on my progress or training, only positives.

I only hope I can save a few others the pain of wasted years strictly adhereing to rubbish guidelines, a few on here seem to agree with me given the reps I receive for challenging so called "accepted bodybuidling facts".


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## Wardy211436114751 (Jan 24, 2011)

Jesus christ two shakes = 2400 calories wtf man drop them!


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## Thunderstruck (Sep 20, 2010)

haha this poor guy only wanted a bit of diet advice and now hes got the guys from 'the big bang theory' squabbling on his thread


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