# Vitamins the truth behind RDA's



## SD (Sep 3, 2004)

Thought you would all like this information on vitamins taken from Optimum Nutrition Bible by Patrick Holford.

Attached is a table of the most common vitamins, minerals and nutrients (also find below,thanks massive).

In the second column is RDA (recommended daily allowance). The RDA is set by government scientists and is the amount of that micronutrient required to prevent deficiency disease. The RDA is also based on an average persons body weight (69kg)!!

In column three is the average Joe's diet, and in column four is a good diet packed with fruit, veg, seeds and nuts.

In column five is the ODA (Optimal Daily Amount). This is the amount of the given micronutrient required for 'Optimal Health', that being necessary to grow muscle if nothing else!

As you can see from the table above there are several important issues raised.

The RDA is often not met by an average diet filled with processed and refined food.

The RDA is often exceeded by a good diet.

The RDA is vastly lower than the ODA.

Even a good diet is nowhere near the ODA.

The ODA is vastly lower than the given nutrients toxicity levels!

The difference between your diet and the ODA, is your supplementation level.

The ODA increases with body mass, disease, drug use and poor food quality as your body seeks to rid itself of toxins, free radicals and disease. As such, as bodybuilders, the ODA could potentially be even higher, especially in the anti-oxidants A,C & E.

To meet even the minimum ODA is almost impossible with food alone, partly responsible for that is the quality of our food! Supplementation is the answer.

The minimum a bodybuilder should be taking is

2x Multivitamin (one morning, one late afternoon). Take with meals.

2x Anti-oxidant complex (A,C,E +Co-enzyme Q10, Green tea Etc)

2x 1000mg Vit c (preferably slow release, preferably with Bioflavinoids) Take away from meals.

Remember the *RDA* is based on a 69kg sedentary person, aiming for just enough micronutrients to stave of a deficiency disease. How many people reading this fit that category?

If the bodybuilder is supplementing with AAS, in particular 17AA, then additional Antioxidant support would be needed in the form of extra A, C & E, and extra Niacin to lower cholesterol, as well as usual Liver protectorants. As such the bodybuilders supplements would look lke this:

3x Multivitamin (one morning, one lunchtime, one early evening) take with meals.

2x Antioxidant Complex one AM, one before workout.

*3-10* x Vit C 1000mg (10x 1000mg is being used in medicine for lowering cholesterol!! start at 3 and work up, if you get loose stools then cut back) Spread out the dose.

1 x Garlic (lowers cholesterol)

6 x Omega Capsules

Liver protectorants (mik thistle etc)

1-2 x Niacin (B3) 500mg (No flush variety only. Lowers cholesterol).

If due to AAS the bodybuilder has acne then increase vitamin E by 400mg and add Niacin (B3) 100mg for thirty days.

Vitamins help every component of our bodies function, but they also clean and detox you and balance your hormones. With so many factors leaching vitamins from your body, it would be counter productive not to over supplement, especially considering toxicity from vitamins is very dificult to achieve and that toxicity in most cases means mostly as little as an upset stomach.

I can hear a few of you reading this and saying to yourselves 'is he crazy?? I am gonna poison myself!!' Vitamin toxicity is very rare and difficult to achieve, look at the toxicity levels. The only remotely dangerous vitamin is Vit D. B6 can cause neuropathy, Vit A is toxic in large doses to pregnant women. In all cases, symptoms are reversible on discontinued use, so if you get a reaction that is unpleasant then back off the dose. Try it, you may just get an overwhelming sense of well being as you re-feed your body its depleted micronutrients, or you may find that the cold you had cleared up, or that the headache goes, perhaps never to come back. Try the programme for a month and see for yourself, its cheaper and healthier than most supplements and comes with science fact to back it up not science fiction.

Thanks to MrMassive for sorting out my table posting problems!

SD

Nutrient RDA ODA.doc


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## skizxi (Sep 16, 2004)

cheer mate very good read


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## Nytol (Jul 16, 2005)

Excellent post.


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## skizxi (Sep 16, 2004)

When you say "if on aas 3 x muti vits a day" surley this depends on the strenght of the tablets?


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## SD (Sep 3, 2004)

skizxi said:


> When you say "if on aas 3 x muti vits a day" surley this depends on the strenght of the tablets?


It would but I wouldn't go any higher if thats what you mean. Any positive hormonal imbalance will require extra micronutrient support and raised metabolism will require more anti-oxidants.

3 multivits, plus the other extra supplements should have you covered for most scenarios, as without bloods it would be impossible to know if you are supplementing high enough. Whilst it is very difficult to poison yourself with vitamins, 3 is a high dose, but still nowhere near toxicity.

You could experiment with your dosing skizxi, but stay well within toxicity levels, I would say three is probably 3 times the amount most people are taking.

HTH

SD


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## skizxi (Sep 16, 2004)

cheers - i use solger 75 at the mo and 1 a day as they are strong


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## SD (Sep 3, 2004)

skizxi said:


> cheers - i use solger 75 at the mo and 1 a day as they are strong


Solgar are one of the better and stronger ones for sure, you would still need two to come near ODA however. Use fitday.com to track your micronutrients and you will see what I mean.

SD


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## mrmasive (Dec 30, 2005)

To read later


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## mrmasive (Dec 30, 2005)




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## SD (Sep 3, 2004)

Don't know how you did it dude, but that was sweet! thanks.

SD


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Bump for reading after break time at work. Hell, I gotta get paid to read this.


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## Nine Pack (Oct 30, 2006)

Good discussion & a lot of useful info.

RDA's were formulated after the last world war & relate to what the medical community refers to as 'physiological man'. He is about 70kg, carrying no extra muscle tissue & average bodyfat. He is in no way an athlete.

The RDA'a were set simply to allow society to recover after years of wartime rationing. They were designed to allow people to live, work to retirement age, reproduce & place as little strain on the health service as possible. They are basically 'adequate' values, nothing more.

Nobody under hard regular training can be satisfied with being 'adequate'. Our values need to be massively increased if we are to reap the benefits of our hard work. We need optimum nutrition, which is in essence an artificial environment as it would never occur in nature. It's something we can achieve easily due to the abundance of food & supplements. we want to be lean & muscular, your body, as a survival mechanism, does not. It will cut you dead in your tracks unless you provide it with every nutrient & micronutrient it needs to grow that way, otherwise it takes too much energy to sustain any degree of muscularity & the body will get rid of it without hesitation. Ain't mother nature a bitch?!


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## Keyser Soze (Dec 12, 2005)

Given the poverty of condensed vitamin info out there, this is a real breath of fresh air in it's depth and clarity.

That said, I want some confirmation about the toxicity levels of Vitamin A, most sources I've seen place it around 3200 - which is a big disparity. What studies have demonstrated normal body function at 8000??

Agree about RDA, it's a pathetically unrealistic yardstick that started many years before the advent of bodybuilding, before we had so much pollution and refinements in our food.

Most people think of RDA as "A minimum amount of nutrients I need to feel great every day!" whereas in fact it has only two purposes, both of which are utter copouts...

1) So manufacturers can get away with making food appear healthier than it is;

2) To avoid the risk of advocating toxic levels of vits.

Ok that' all, any proof on Vit A toxicity levels appreciated.

Keyser


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## Great White (Apr 4, 2003)

Yeah, good Read SD.

Im always worried about how many vits I should be taking along side my Multivitamin.

I always break up things like Zinc, Magnesium, etc so that I dont take them with my multi.

Now, seeing this, that I should be taking 2 - 3 multi`s a day, as well as everything else kinda makes things easier.

Rep for you and im gonna stick it for a bit.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Guys, you need to look at the copper amounts in your supplements.

Seems there is some association with high copper and Alzheimer's disease.

They used to think it was aluminum but just recently it is suggested copper is the cause.

Most vitamin supplements contain 2mg of copper and if you are taking many of the multiples then you are probably over the top on copper.

Worse yet if you are taking a mineral supplement, again those have 2mg of copper.

Now to make things worse, many water pipes are made of copper and if you have acidic (low PH) water then you run a risk of leeching from the pipes into your water, making this even worse.


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## Peg (Feb 9, 2006)

Toxicity will depend on the need of the vitamin.

A person with cancer for instance will need 26,000mg of vitamin C and it will not be toxic.

Vitamin C is not considered toxic even with high dosages, but my point is that when the body needs more we can give it more without it being toxic. This applies to the minerals and vitamins that can be toxic.

You can create a detrimental effect on the body if you do not take your vitamins in the right proportions as well.

The best way always to get your vitamins is through good food sources not pills.

Having said that, I do take vitamin and mineral supplements.

No one vitamin is a magic bullet for health or for causing any diseases.

I've said over and over again on this site that for the body to work properly it needs all nutrients in abundance not just one or two.

I have taken 26,000IU of vitamin A and have not had any toxic effects, but at the time, I needed that large amount.

The amount of vitamins you take is dynamic depending on many factors.

If you worry about toxic effects, take the vitamins 6 days a week and skip one day.

That skip day could be your cheat meal day when you eat more calories with less nutrition. You will need the vitamins. Any toxicity will be counteracted because the body has to use the stored vitamins.

As for Copper toxicity in the water pipes:Run your tap water for 15 seconds in the morning before drinking it or using it.

Exerpt form article on copper toxicity:

"The most likely place to be exposed to copper is through drinking water, especially if your water is corrosive and you have copper pipes in your house. The best way to lower the level of copper in your drinking water is to let the water run for at least 15 seconds first thing in the morning before drinking or using it. This reduces the levels of copper in tap water dramatically.

If you work with copper, wear the necessary protective clothing and equipment, and always follow safety procedures. Shower and change your clothes before going home each day."


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## Peg (Feb 9, 2006)

Vitamin A in beta carotene form is not toxic.

26,000IU/mg (non beta carotene form) is considered toxic.

Scroll down past the post reply and quick reply window to view the similar threads below for more information that has been given on the subject of vitamins and bodybuilding.


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## SD (Sep 3, 2004)

hackskii said:


> Guys, you need to look at the copper amounts in your supplements.
> 
> Seems there is some association with high copper and Alzheimer's disease.
> 
> ...


That is true Hacks with a but! Copper is associated with Alzhiemers but Homocystein is linked much more directly. The addition of extra B6, B12 and folic acid combats raised Homocystien levels. ALso associated with Alzhiemers is raised oxidant levels.

Additionally every mineral has its antagonist, coppers is zinc as per the periodic table, other antagonists are Vit c and B3. When you take the multis plus the anti oxidants and extra vit c you redress an icrease in copper directly and lower oxidant levels, just make sure you have at least a 1-10 copper to zinc ratio, which every good multi will have already.

Due to Copper toxicity, amongst other things, I filter all my drinking water with a Brita filter. I also supplement with its antagonists as per the directed programme above.

Did you know? Clomid raises Copper significantly! On your next PCT you may want extra Vitc and Zinc.

Regards

SD


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## SD (Sep 3, 2004)

Keyser Soze said:


> Given the poverty of condensed vitamin info out there, this is a real breath of fresh air in it's depth and clarity.
> 
> That said, I want some confirmation about the toxicity levels of Vitamin A, most sources I've seen place it around 3200 - which is a big disparity. What studies have demonstrated normal body function at 8000??
> 
> ...


It is retinol which is toxic not Beta carotene as Peg has said above, remember bodybuilders supplemented with handfuls of liver tablets at one time, and liver is the most concentrated source of vit A, there was few if any reports of toxicity.

SD


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Dammit I didnt know that about clomid and copper.

Oh man, thanks for that.

I knew about the zinc but not clomid.

Sweet, I learned something today........yay...........yippie.......

Reps


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## SD (Sep 3, 2004)

Now that custom capsule are giving UK-Muscle members a 20% discount, we have a great opportunity to make our own high strength vitamins, just punch the values above into there shopping interface and you have your very own ODA strength vitamins & minerals capsules!!

Will take a little converting from mg/mcg to IU's in some cases.

SD


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## bkotey (Mar 29, 2007)

Reall good. That read was an eye opener for sure! Is this a sticky? Should be! Also anybody got more info on copper reduction. Its quite worrying about the alzheimers thing.


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## SD (Sep 3, 2004)

bkotey said:


> Reall good. That read was an eye opener for sure! Is this a sticky? Should be! Also anybody got more info on copper reduction. Its quite worrying about the alzheimers thing.


Yes it was a sticky for a while, but the admin re-shuffle the stickies now and again to give other articles a chance.

Copper is antagonised by Zinc, so increased zinc will reduce copper. Filtering tap water does the same.

SD


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## genesis (Jul 4, 2006)

Excellent Read SD


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## SD (Sep 3, 2004)

Thanks Gen,

This article took some work so I am glad its helping a few people, really recommend everyone read optimum nutrition by Patrick Holford, you can individualise a vitamin supplement programme based on questionaires in the book.

Regards

SD


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## justdiscovering (May 10, 2007)

WOW!!!!!!!!!

think i need to up my omega 3 as well so i can cram in all this info in. :blowme:

some cleaver cookies ere ........

only jokin

great post SD as usual a fountain of knowledge to be found here if you care to read........


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## NGW (Jul 29, 2007)

Bloody good read:blowme:


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## SD (Sep 3, 2004)

NGW said:


> Bloody good read:blowme:


?


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## ba baracuss (Apr 26, 2004)

Nice post :thumbup1:

A few questions:

- Copper - my multi has copper - bad news?

- Are Boots multis any good or [email protected]?

Thanks :beer:


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## sofresh (Sep 9, 2008)

very god post my friend


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## SD (Sep 3, 2004)

Just a tip for everyone using Fitday (there is a new version out now btw!).

On your 'My Nutrition' section, you can add custom values for vitamins. Its worth adding in the values from the table at the beginning of this thread, use ODA as your minimum and Toxicity limit as your maximum. Where there is no toxicity limit, leave it blank.

hth

SD


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