# Back width



## Delhi

*What is the number one back (Width) builder*​
Deadlifts9914.16%Wide grip chins37253.22%Pulldowns11115.88%Bent over rows11716.74%


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## Delhi

What in your opinion is the number one back width builder?


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## chrisj22

IMO chins.


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## the_gre8t_1ne

Wide grip weighted chins IMO


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## Aftershock

Yes Wide grip chins work best for me.. If I do chins with a closer grip it hits the biceps to much, wide grip you have to go lighter but it isolates the lats more.


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## Ollie B

Wide grip chins without a doubt


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## Nine Pack

There is always going to be a favourite for everyone on this subject, but the biomechanics of the lattissumus dorsi are constant. Thier primary function (that we are concerned with here anyway) is to medially rotate & extend (draw back) the arm. That's all they do in the most part.

In knowing this, any variation on that theme will yield results, so chins, pulldowns, rows of any kind, any shoulder extension movement will have an effect. The real 'secret' as with all movements is keep it varied as if we did chins every week, they would no longer be as effective.

The reason for the diminishing returns on an exercise done too frequently is the bodies in built desire to use as little energy as possible (it will always take the path of least resistance). In order to do this, it will become as efficient as it possibly can when performing a regular pattern of neuromuscular activity. The body learns to fire off fibres in the best order to make it easier. For this reason, keep it mixed up & accept that there is no 'best' exercise for anything. Even a very good movement will yield less results than an inferior one if done too often.


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## DB

very wide grip chins

concentrating on a nice stretch at the bottom and use all back try to keep the arms out of it..


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## Nine Pack

DB said:


> very wide grip chins
> 
> concentrating on a nice stretch at the bottom and use all back try to keep the arms out of it..


The wider the grip, the less stretch is placed on the lats as the arms are not fully adducted towards the midline of the body. It can also be potentially very risky on the shoulders when performing very wide grip chins so please be careful bud, you may be storing up trouble for the future.


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## Delhi

i've got to say Ninepack I have read alot of your posts and I must say you come accross as very educted in the field of BBing.

I can tell you are a *great * PT!


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## Magic Torch

Yeah Paul B reminds me of a drill sargent!


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## Nine Pack

Thanks guys, I really like this board as it helps me to keep my knowledge fresh and so I can keep the galloping senility at bay!

Drill sergeant? Never tried that approach. Hmm, think I'll get my clients frog marching up & down the gym to warm up before a session!

Be afraid Welly & Bulldog!


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## supercell

Have to agree with Paul on this. The wider the grip the more stress is placed on the bicep insertions and also the posterior deltoid. Think of the rear delt machine when the arms are forced wide, same kind of principle.

The best chins of all for maximum stress on the Lats are medium grip ones as stated in most BBing literature. It is a complete falacy that the wider the grip the wider the lats, infact the wider the grip the more injuries you open yourself up for especially in and around the deltoids and the rotator cuff.

Thats not to say wide chins wont yield results, its just that the aforementioned version will yield better ones.

J


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## TypeR

ive gone from doing wide grip pulldowns to close grip and found it worked better, thats just confirmed it for me thanks! 

Ben


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## welly

Wide grip chins hurt my shoulders and I wouldn't recommend anyone go for the stretch as this often leads to an extension of the shoulder (trust me instability of the shoulder joint is not good) Chins are an excellent exercise if you can do them correctly but most do not and end up performing a hanging crunch and knee raise combined. I would suggest most people would be better off performing lat pull downs.

Ninepack if you think I'm frog marching up and down any gym forget it and don't even think about combining it with lunges.


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## Nine Pack

welly said:


> Ninepack if you think I'm frog marching up and down any gym forget it and don't even think about combining it with lunges.


Red rag to a bull my friend, I'll see you on saturday. Bring ya boots! :tongue10:


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## Magic Torch

Welly I feel I must apologise.....


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## Nine Pack

Welly knows I'm only joking........................he can do it in trainers!

I can feel a Monty Python sketch coming on. :tongue10:


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## welly

Ahem I feel this has gone off topic slightly.

So back on the poll Pulldowns are my fav although Bent over rows are good for general.


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## invisiblekid

Replace the brief case with a 30kg db and you're set!


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## shorty

wolllaaaa!!!

and people at work say i do nothing!! LOL:rolleye11


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## Tinytom

I like cable pullovers/pulldowns.

Its the ONLY exercise that isolates the lats you know. :rolleye11


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## welly

Straight Arm Pulldowns can be good every now and then.


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## Nine Pack

Tinytom said:


> I like cable pullovers/pulldowns.
> 
> Its the ONLY exercise that isolates the lats you know. :rolleye11


Shut yer neck. :tongue10:

Now that's real eloquence! I have a way with words!


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## no pain

i was watching war for the worlds on bodybuilding.com and pro body builder bob chicerillo recons everyones got it wrong when it comes to back training?

he says for width a narrow grip works better so rows give you more width

and a wide grip works inner back

the same goes for arm training close grip works outer bi-cep and wide grip

works inner bi-cep

and legs close works outer and wide stance works inner...

so for width i'd go with close grip cable rows???


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## paulo

currently chinning - 12 bodyweight,8 with 20lb, 8 with 40lb then finish with boidyweight holding at top for 8- great sesh and back looking wide,if go swimming just push of and flap the lats like a stingray lol


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## leveret

chins as in pull ups ? They're fking hard i can only do about 7 if i'm really pushing it. Althought i haven't tried since i started doing my weight training.

Atm I do bent over rowing for my sides but when i loose some weight and build strenght will give this wide grip 'chins' ago


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## LEWIS

Nine Pack said:


> There is always going to be a favourite for everyone on this subject, but the biomechanics of the lattissumus dorsi are constant. Thier primary function (that we are concerned with here anyway) is to medially rotate & extend (draw back) the arm. That's all they do in the most part.
> 
> In knowing this, any variation on that theme will yield results, so chins, pulldowns, rows of any kind, any shoulder extension movement will have an effect. The real 'secret' as with all movements is keep it varied as if we did chins every week, they would no longer be as effective.
> 
> The reason for the diminishing returns on an exercise done too frequently is the bodies in built desire to use as little energy as possible (it will always take the path of least resistance). In order to do this, it will become as efficient as it possibly can when performing a regular pattern of neuromuscular activity. The body learns to fire off fibres in the best order to make it easier. For this reason, keep it mixed up & accept that there is no 'best' exercise for anything. Even a very good movement will yield less results than an inferior one if done too often.


makes sence


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## Cookie

Nine Pack said:


> In knowing this, any variation on that theme will yield results, so chins, pulldowns, rows of any kind, any shoulder extension movement will have an effect. The real 'secret' as with all movements is keep it varied as if we did chins every week, they would no longer be as effective.
> 
> The reason for the diminishing returns on an exercise done too frequently is the bodies in built desire to use as little energy as possible (it will always take the path of least resistance). In order to do this, it will become as efficient as it possibly can when performing a regular pattern of neuromuscular activity. The body learns to fire off fibres in the best order to make it easier. For this reason, keep it mixed up & accept that there is no 'best' exercise for anything. Even a very good movement will yield less results than an inferior one if done too often.


I would have to disagree with the above about using an exercise too frequently and needing to keep it constantly varied....


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## Nine Pack

ONE SMART COOKIE said:


> I would have to disagree with the above about using an exercise too frequently and needing to keep it constantly varied....


Fair enough OSC, but it would be nice to know why you disagree.

The argument I had was based on training to promote muscular growth, and in that context it is perfectly true. In strength training, it may not be the case though. The body will learn to become as efficient as possible when performing a particular action on a regular basis. To become more efficient at it, it learns to recruit fewer bundles of fibres to perform the same action in order to save energy. As I have said many times, the human body will always choose the path of least resistance so if it knows what it is about to do, there's no way it will voluntarily recruit any more fibres than is absolutely necessary.

By choosing exercises that we have not done over & over for months & years, we trick the neuromuscular system into recruiting more fibres as it is still 'learning' the movement (or is not ready for it) & has not yet become very efficient at that particular series of muscular contractions. This is precisely why a beginner will see accelerated gains in the first few months of training, as it is not used to any of the movements so the body uses far more fibres & the stimulation is far greater. If you are training for strength, then a repeated pattern of the same movement over time will result in improved technique, and in turn more efficient neuromuscular activity, which is good in that type of training.


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## Cookie

Nine Pack said:


> Fair enough OSC, but it would be nice to know why you disagree.
> 
> The argument I had was based on training to promote muscular growth, and in that context it is perfectly true. In strength training, it may not be the case though. The body will learn to become as efficient as possible when performing a particular action on a regular basis. To become more efficient at it, it learns to recruit fewer bundles of fibres to perform the same action in order to save energy. As I have said many times, the human body will always choose the path of least resistance so if it knows what it is about to do, there's no way it will voluntarily recruit any more fibres than is absolutely necessary.
> 
> By choosing exercises that we have not done over & over for months & years, we trick the neuromuscular system into recruiting more fibres as it is still 'learning' the movement (or is not ready for it) & has not yet become very efficient at that particular series of muscular contractions. This is precisely why a beginner will see accelerated gains in the first few months of training, as it is not used to any of the movements so the body uses far more fibres & the stimulation is far greater. If you are training for strength, then a repeated pattern of the same movement over time will result in improved technique, and in turn more efficient neuromuscular activity, which is good in that type of training.


The main fundamental failure I have found with people not gaining is more often than not, not the exercises they are performing, Be it the same ones over and over again BUT the WAY they train, ie, to failure etc etc etc over prolonged periods of time & with a mental block on their ability to be able to perform the same routines over extended periods of time.

If an individual was to follow the principle of *greasing the groove* they would find that they get stronger and more proficient at the exercise which will lead to improved nureopathway activity & muscualr growth when the repetition range is increased....Grease the groove usually follows a principle of low repetitions mutliple times per day (if possible) on a daily basis (if possible)..Now if your following that type of pattern (GTG) and started adding extra resistance into the mix you are not only going to get stronger but bigger.

Even when switching on a continual basis the body can *cotton on* to what you are doing and this won`t always work for some people.


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## The Rave

I agree that wide grip pull downs or chin-ups builds width to the top of the back by increasing the size of the lats, but lets not forget that the lower lats also give width to the lower back!


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## Nine Pack

ONE SMART COOKIE said:


> The main fundamental failure I have found with people not gaining is more often than not, not the exercises they are performing, Be it the same ones over and over again BUT the WAY they train, ie, to failure etc etc etc over prolonged periods of time & with a mental block on their ability to be able to perform the same routines over extended periods of time.
> 
> If an individual was to follow the principle of *greasing the groove* they would find that they get stronger and more proficient at the exercise which will lead to improved nureopathway activity & muscualr growth when the repetition range is increased....Grease the groove usually follows a principle of low repetitions mutliple times per day (if possible) on a daily basis (if possible)..Now if your following that type of pattern (GTG) and started adding extra resistance into the mix you are not only going to get stronger but bigger.
> 
> Even when switching on a continual basis the body can *cotton on* to what you are doing and this won`t always work for some people.


This technique really has no place in the training schedules of anyone training to increase muscle size, which is the case for most of the people on this board. It can allow you to increase endurance & strength but will yield little muscular gain in itself. It may be of use to push past a strength plateau & then return to normal methods though.

I am aware of the principles of synaptic facilitation, and Pavel Tsatsouline's methods, but I can't think of a single successful Bber that he has coached. I think this is where we are at cross purposes OSC. My methods are geared purely to the aesthetic of muscular growth, whilst you are talking about strength & endurance. As a Bber, I freely admit that my methods are not necessarily the best approach from a functional point of view (as I am reminded of when trying to dress myself in the morning!), but they do yield better visual gains and that's what 99% of guys in the gym are concerned with. When I stop competing, I will utilise a myriad of different methods & take a more 'all round' approach to my training, but for now and the forseeable future, I'll stick to what I know, and can show works.


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## deejpj

id go for wide grip chins


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## Cookie

Nine Pack said:


> This technique really has no place in the training schedules of anyone training to increase muscle size, which is the case for most of the people on this board. It can allow you to increase endurance & strength but will yield little muscular gain in itself. It may be of use to push past a strength plateau & then return to normal methods though.
> 
> I am aware of the principles of synaptic facilitation, and Pavel Tsatsouline's methods, but I can't think of a single successful Bber that he has coached. I think this is where we are at cross purposes OSC. My methods are geared purely to the aesthetic of muscular growth, whilst you are talking about strength & endurance. As a Bber, I freely admit that my methods are not necessarily the best approach from a functional point of view (as I am reminded of when trying to dress myself in the morning!), but they do yield better visual gains and that's what 99% of guys in the gym are concerned with. When I stop competing, I will utilise a myriad of different methods & take a more 'all round' approach to my training, but for now and the forseeable future, I'll stick to what I know, and can show works.


I think it has a place in bbing training..

As I pointed out in my first explanation that if extra weight were to be added to this type of regime then increased muscular size would be a byproduct of following it aswell as increases in strength and endurance.

Now if another method (ladders) of increased volume whilst without the need to go into training to failure mode was used then that would also give the individual increases in muscular size whilst still using the same exercise.

Increases in muscular size whilst using the same exercises over & over again can easily be achieved by the use of simple techiques posted above as examples (and there are many more) but also by a simple tweak of reps, sets, rest periods. It is usually the lack of proper planning that mean people fail to make continual gains...

ALL techniques have a place in ALL sports...

And I`m speaking as an ex competing bodybuilder...

And to be a bodybuilder DOESNOT mean that you have to be unfucntional, maybe you should do a bit of research on the likes of Grimek et al and they way they were not only huge guys but also very very functional & athletic..


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## Nine Pack

ONE SMART COOKIE said:


> I think it has a place in bbing training..
> 
> As I pointed out in my first explanation that if extra weight were to be added to this type of regime then increased muscular size would be a byproduct of following it aswell as increases in strength and endurance.
> 
> Now if another method (ladders) of increased volume whilst without the need to go into training to failure mode was used then that would also give the individual increases in muscular size whilst still using the same exercise.
> 
> I'm not going to change my views on the training to failure issue as I firmly believe it's the signal that triggers maximum growth *if *done correctly.
> 
> Increases in muscular size whilst using the same exercises over & over again can easily be achieved by the use of simple techiques posted above as examples (and there are many more) but also by a simple tweak of reps, sets, rest periods. It is usually the lack of proper planning that mean people fail to make continual gains...
> 
> I have said on several occasions that variations don't *always* have to be different exercises & that changing variables as you describe is another stimulus for growth. I believe that a change of exercise is however a greater stimulus than merely a change in reps etc. Of course, you eventually have to return to a particular exercise as there is only so many variations you can explore. I believe a mixture of varying exercises AND rep/set/rest variables is the key.
> 
> ALL techniques have a place in ALL sports...
> 
> I personally don't agree with this to the letter, especially in something so specific as BBing, but there are some crossover areas.
> 
> And I`m speaking as an ex competing bodybuilder...
> 
> And to be a bodybuilder DOESNOT mean that you have to be unfucntional, maybe you should do a bit of research on the likes of Grimek et al and they way they were not only huge guys but also very very functional & athletic..
> 
> I agree they don't *have to be*, but in reality, most BBers have some flexibility & ROM issues due to the sheer size of the muscles. There are the exceptions, like Ronnie & Ernie Taylor who can perform splits etc, but on the whole this is not the case.


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## The Rave

Nine Pack said:


> This technique really has no place in the training schedules of anyone training to increase muscle size, which is the case for most of the people on this board. It can allow you to increase endurance & strength but will yield little muscular gain in itself. It may be of use to push past a strength plateau & then return to normal methods though.
> 
> I am aware of the principles of synaptic facilitation, and Pavel Tsatsouline's methods, but I can't think of a single successful Bber that he has coached. I think this is where we are at cross purposes OSC. My methods are geared purely to the aesthetic of muscular growth, whilst you are talking about strength & endurance. As a Bber, I freely admit that my methods are not necessarily the best approach from a functional point of view (as I am reminded of when trying to dress myself in the morning!), but they do yield better visual gains and that's what 99% of guys in the gym are concerned with. When I stop competing, I will utilise a myriad of different methods & take a more 'all round' approach to my training, but for now and the forseeable future, I'll stick to what I know, and can show works.


I personally think that training to failure works and it works for me! I train at least one set for each muscle (on that day) I train it and am growing in mass and strength faster than when I did not go to failure. I would recommend that you download "Bodybuilding - Mike Mentzer's Hit" from a torrent file as he trains to failure alot for growth!

When you look at it simplistically it makes sense; muscles grow back stronger to cope with additional load, 'The Overload Principal'. The more you overload the muscles, the stronger they must get to cope with the additional loads!


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## leveret

I'm starting to get the feeling doing bent over rowing is only working my arms as i don't feel like my lats are even getting harder during the exercise.

What else other than chins can i do(can't do chins yet).

I remember i think i used to do an exercise with one knee on the bench then u pull the weight up to your chest, does that work the lats? lol


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## Ecksarmy11

Tinytom said:


> I like cable pullovers/pulldowns.
> 
> Its the ONLY exercise that isolates the lats you know. :rolleye11


Can someone explain cable pullovers/pulldowns or post a link ?

Cheers.


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## SCJP

Ecksarmy11 said:


> Can someone explain cable pullovers/pulldowns or post a link ?
> 
> Cheers.


http://exrx.net/WeightExercises/LatissimusDorsi/BBPullover.html

I think you know what pulldowns are!

For Liam:

http://exrx.net/Lists/ExList/BackWt.html#anchor125439

I think any exercise that involves drawing your elbow towards your torso will work your lats.


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## alex.p

Wide grip pullups behind the neck worked best for me


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## hertderg

what's better - lat pulldown to front or rear ?


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## andr0lic

for your rotator-cuff - front,

for your muscles - neither. both hit the entire back complex in different and IMO equally effective manners.

Best back width for me was always close grips because I felt it more in my batwings and less in my rear delts delts create width, but I always thought wide low hanging lats constituted a wide complete back.


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## hertderg

andr0lic said:


> for your rotator-cuff - front,
> 
> for your muscles - neither. both hit the entire back complex in different and IMO equally effective manners.
> 
> Best back width for me was always close grips because I felt it more in my batwings and less in my rear delts delts create width, but I always thought wide low hanging lats constituted a wide complete back.


Cheers m8 - I'll stick to front for now.


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## BigDS

hertderg said:


> Cheers m8 - I'll stick to front for now.


i do 2 sets to front and 2 sets to back, both to failure and after deads but before bent over rows.

has worked really well fo me and i like the idea of mixing it up.

side note - really good discussion in this thread. loving the science in ti.


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## andr0lic

I like your volume D as if one needs more than two focused intense working sets of either, you're not properly stimulating the muscles, and are just doing counterproductive work that will in most cases hinder recover and impede mass accumulation

Id agree to mix them up also, as IMHO there is no exercise done behind the neck that cannot be used productively and safely as long as certain tenets are adhered to.

1. Do NOT go too heavy. I don't care if your name's Branch Warren. You are inviting injury as you won't be able to properly stabilize.

2. Do NOT go all the way down right to the back of the neck. Ear level works fine for more than most.

3. Do NOT lean forward. Of course a slight lean may be warranted, but focus on slightly craning your neck down to allow for proper range-of-motion.

4. Do NOT use a fast rep cadence(speed) as this is where most injuries are prone to manifest. You can explode it up(on presses), if it helps you get in the groove, but control it on the eccentric portion and pause briefly at the turnaround. BTN pulldowns are a trickier and more delicate movement though, because the positive portion of the rep drives the weight right into the danger zone, and those who get overzealous often pay a certain price. So full attention should be given to every inch of the repitition, especially near the bottom as thats where the fatal tweak is most often going to happen.

5. Do NOT make any behind-the-neck movements a staple in your routine or if one is working extremely well for you, allow yourself a period of time to reap the most you can from the movement, but then cycle off any behind the neck work for at least as long as you were hitting it before you resume. It will cause you problems if you constantly push it over the long-term.

-Andy


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## Kezz

haha i remember the days when i did chins, i just get strained biceps when i ndo em now, some nice pulldowns are much more refined lol, just train your back and it will grow.............


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## _GM_

intresting thread my back width is a weak point


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## Guest

Chin ups followed by deadlifts has always worked for me.


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## Kezz

its ok saying such and such makes my back wide, but how do you actually know what makes it wide if you are doing a combination of stuff??


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## jw007

heavy cheat curls makes my back wide.. how do i know??? cause it fcukin kills afterwards lol


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## simba

u hav to do both rowin and chins.. personally chins.. with different hand angles /spacing

my back thickness has always been good.. but chins added a whole new angle..

secret is never do the same exercises evry week , stress the lats from chins differently.

god bless.


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## Kezz

strict heavy dumbell rows seemed to bring mine on loads


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## Chris4Pez1436114538

All of them as mixing your training but doing compound movements work effectively!


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## gym rat

iv started doing reverse grip lat pull downs and there really bringing quality definition to my lower lats where it meets your oblique(sp)


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## Big_Dan

weighted chins


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## nathanlowe

the chins defo


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## adzk469

I have found that under hand rows have really started to bring my back up recently. I could never really find that muscle mind connection with chins!


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## justdiscovering

seated wide grip rows are certainly givin my back a good kickin at the mo,but its always been pulldowns and barbell rows for me ,but not to wide a grip as it hammers my rotators,plus bi's come into play too much.


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## cellaratt

I also like seated wide grip rows..But heavy (strick form )one arm bent over DB rowsares also good, and Sh!t I also like T-Bar, maybe some stiff arm cable pull downs, of course you can't forget Chins, Duh.


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## stow

Wide grup lat pull downs, steady and controlled. Low cable row with close grip, very heavy. Bent over barbell rows, Yates style.


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## GSleigh

Delhi said:


> i've got to say Ninepack I have read alot of your posts and I must say you come accross as very educted in the field of BBing.
> 
> I can tell you are a *great *PT!


Agreed... Everything i read from this guy i seem to end up writing down soem where and working into my routines or ideas on the subject! LOL


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## stow

Paul learnt everything he knows from John Hodgson


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## Tomskiii

Hey guys, so what would be an example complementary set of exercises for back?

the gym i'm currently using doesnt have anywhere to do chins


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## boldster

Hi all this is my first post on here, i am dedicated well i think im dedicated, my diet is pretty much spot on as well as my training but this is why i am posting here my BACK isthe damndest hardest muscle for me to develop properly have been training solid now for 1 and half years can someone give me some tips advice routines etc, am taking hurricane xs & L glutamine from MP, please help a desperate guy, thanks


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## notts890

boldster said:


> Hi all this is my first post on here, i am dedicated well i think im dedicated, my diet is pretty much spot on as well as my training but this is why i am posting here my BACK isthe damndest hardest muscle for me to develop properly have been training solid now for 1 and half years can someone give me some tips advice routines etc, am taking hurricane xs & L glutamine from MP, please help a desperate guy, thanks


whats your routine mate?

back workouts should be built around deads. chins and rows imo


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## cellaratt

will help if you post current routine...


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## boldster

current routine

monday

2x 10 warm up bench press

1x10 35kg

2x8 40kg

2x cooling down sets

3 sets incline bp

couple sets of flyes

arms

1 warm up set 12.5kg for 12 reps

2 sets 15kg for 10 reps

3 sets hammer curls or reverse curls

Tuesday

4 sets pull downs

4 sets straight arm pull downs

4 sets of seated rows

4 sets shrugs

3 upright rows

Wednesday

either 5 sets on leg xtension or aquats depend where i train that day

4 sets leg press

3 sets leg curls

4 sets calf raises

Thursday

4 sets shoulder press on smith 1 warm up inc

4 sets or lateral raise

4 sets reverse flyes on pec dec

4 or 5 sets of tricep pressdown

4 sets one arm reverse pressdown

Friday same as Monday


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## notts890

pulldowns swap for chins (wide grip)

straight arm pulldowns get rid

cable rows swap for bent over rows

get rid of the shrugs and upright rows replace with deadlifts

chins and rows 4sets pyramid up the weight

deads 5x5

chins for width rows for midlle and lower back deads for everything!


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## boldster

what type of pullups we talking there are several ways to do these, body straight when pullong or chest up and out, can't think of their name

how many sets and what exercises should i do and whar rep range, thank you also for the advice


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## Tatyana

welly said:


> Straight Arm Pulldowns can be good every now and then.


+1

An exercise that is not used all that often


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## ghostdog

wide grip pullups superset with straight arm pulldowns is my favourite superset and definately mashes the lats.


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## the_muss

Delhi said:


> What in your opinion is the number one back width builder?


Heavy one arm rows.


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## Lost Soul

notts890 said:


> pulldowns swap for chins (wide grip)
> 
> straight arm pulldowns get rid
> 
> cable rows swap for bent over rows
> 
> get rid of the shrugs and upright rows replace with deadlifts
> 
> chins and rows 4sets pyramid up the weight
> 
> deads 5x5
> 
> chins for width rows for midlle and lower back deads for everything!


disagree with most of that if the 5 rep range goes across the board.

If you are trying to achieve size, train for size, if you want strength train for strength. I assume this thread is all about the thickness of a back, therefore size

For some people chins are pointless to build size, simple reason, they cannot control the movement o get enough clean reps out to promote size, sets of 3-4 shady chins is not close to controlled sets of 8-12 pull downs to the front with form and tempo. the grip need not be too wide either.

5 reps on deads will promote good strength and a good core but is not number one for back* size*

straight arm push downs are fine at the end of a session for seasoned trainers

cable rows again promote constat tension on a horizontal plane so can be put in over a BO row as many simply cant handle the weight and form with BO row.

the ideal scenario is very clean controlled pull ups with additional weight being added week in week out to a rep range of 8-12 but for how many people is this actually the case

screwing around with 1-4 reps of poor form chins = minimal anything other than frustration

If you can do the former then you have a good place to nailing back width and dont discount straight arm pushdowns for advanced trainers

you may even look at splitting the back up into 2 sessions over the week with horiztonal and verticle work with other upper body muscle groups


----------



## Guest

Im going to throw the cat amongst the pigeons here.

Dont close grip chins allow

A)More weight to be used

and

B)Allow a full ROM of the lats?

Ive been doing them for a while (not that i can do many like!) and they seem to be flaring my back out nicely.

Edit, crap spelling!


----------



## Lost Soul

and

© the inclusion of more emphasis on assisting muscles though taking a % of the workload away from the primary muscle group targetted


----------



## Guest

Lost Soul said:


> and
> 
> © the inclusion of more emphasis on assisting muscles though taking a % of the workload away from the primary muscle group targetted


ie, reducing impact on lats therefore not being as good as wide pulls?

So how would that reduction work out?

Lets say you weight 100kg and can do 10 wide grip pullups with 20kgs or 10 narrow chins with 30kg added. would the %age drop in workload done by the lats be enough to discount the additional weight being used? (about 7.5% drop?)

I dont discount wide grip PU's work, but wouldnt chins work just as effectively and give you a full ROM?

(im not trying to get into an argument here, just like to know 'why'. Its got me in trouble since i was 10!! lol)


----------



## Lost Soul

watch the movement of the bicep and the load going through it due to the change in width and grip, wide negates the bicep having such a large influence

close certainly works back but will also allow for more assistance from biceps


----------



## Guest

Ok, cheers


----------



## Lost Soul

Does that make sense?


----------



## Guest

o yeah, ive got it clocked.

I understand that the lats go through more stress doing Pullups as opposed to chins, but i thought the addittional load you could use in addition to possibly more reps etc would lead to an overall greater hypertrophy. Well, i did anyway.

Cheers.

Always learning.


----------



## Lost Soul

yes, 12 reps if close grip will promote more size than 3 of wide grip as the systems in place (IGF/test etc) on the higher reps will provide more growth once you go past a certain rep range and from TUT too.

Ideally you are better off not going over about 12 reps and loading the weight up on your belt as your method of progression

this is why i feel lat pull down will give people bigger backs than chins if tyhey cant do chins...so doing 3 sets of 3,3 and 2 just to say you can do wide grip chins is not ideal for size, is for building strength but not size and of course the two are not universally related. better off getting 3 x 10 out on a lat pull down and working on chins as an auxillary, not staple hence why a 3 day full body would be beneficial for newbies


----------



## Stanco

Lost Soul said:


> yes, 12 reps if close grip will promote more size than 3 of wide grip as the systems in place (IGF/test etc) on the higher reps will provide more growth once you go past a certain rep range and from TUT too.
> 
> Ideally you are better off not going over about 12 reps and loading the weight up on your belt as your method of progression
> 
> this is why i feel lat pull down will give people bigger backs than chins if tyhey cant do chins...so doing 3 sets of 3,3 and 2 just to say you can do wide grip chins is not ideal for size, is for building strength but not size and of course the two are not universally related. better off getting 3 x 10 out on a lat pull down and working on chins as an auxillary, not staple hence why a 3 day full body would be beneficial for newbies


But Soul, it's been banged into my head time and time again that size=strength. Muscle gained from higher reps (10-12) are a result of sarcoplasmic gains.

If you low reps are only good for strength and not muscle size, then wouldnt the 5x5 routine and all chad waterbury routines be useless for the person wanting to gain muscle?


----------



## Guest

Stanco said:


> But Soul, it's been banged into my head time and time again that size=strength. Muscle gained from higher reps (10-12) are a result of sarcoplasmic gains.
> 
> If you low reps are only good for strength and not muscle size, then wouldnt the 5x5 routine and all chad waterbury routines be useless for the person wanting to gain muscle?


Size doesnt equal strength. Strength will undoubtedly come with sive but the 2 or not proportionate.

Look at oly powerlifters. 60kg and snatching more than most BB'ers twice there size.

This is how i see reps/size/strength (roughly!)

2-5 = mainly strength with some hypertrophy

5-8 = strength and hypertrophy

8-12 = Mainly hypertrophy, some strength and some muscle endurance

12-15 = mainly muscle endurance, some hypertrophy

15+ = Muscle endurance.

Now, this is rough and not exclusive. I mean, doggcrapp is 20rep sets (ish) and your gonna hypertrophy doing it!


----------



## Lost Soul

Stanco said:


> But Soul, it's been banged into my head time and time again that size=strength. Muscle gained from higher reps (10-12) are a result of sarcoplasmic gains.
> 
> If you low reps are only good for strength and not muscle size, then wouldnt the 5x5 routine and all chad waterbury routines be useless for the person wanting to gain muscle?


nope because strength is CNS reliant and CNS failure occurs before GH/IGF begins to circulate to induce the additional hypertrophy when using strength reps.

5 x 5 is not useless for gaining size, its not useless for gaining strength, its just not the best of either and i dont think anyone would argue otherwise



mikex101 said:


> 2-5 = mainly strength with some hypertrophy
> 
> 5-8 = strength and hypertrophy
> 
> 8-12 = Mainly hypertrophy, some strength and some muscle endurance
> 
> 12-15 = mainly muscle endurance, some hypertrophy
> 
> 15+ = Muscle endurance.
> 
> Now, this is rough and not exclusive. I mean, doggcrapp is 20rep sets (ish) and your gonna hypertrophy doing it!


see i dont agree with this really either as such as you can induce hypertrophy and build size in type one fibres at high reps arther than endurance.

i prefer to look at functional and non functional, rational and irrational once you have gone past power and strength on the list above


----------



## Guest

Lost Soul said:


> see i dont agree with this really either as such as you can induce hypertrophy and build size in type one fibres at high reps arther than endurance.
> 
> i prefer to look at functional and non functional, rational and irrational once you have gone past power and strength on the list above


Fair play, did say it was rough. lol

So thats where things like rest/pausing comes in yeah? are are you talking more along the lines of 'proper' sets. dropping the weight down and doing a straight set?

Its nice to get a different view on this sort of thing. On the MH boards there one way generally.


----------



## Lost Soul

well look at the fibre of the quds, much of which are type one. type one will grow off high reps, therefore the size of the quad becomes larger on high reps. 20, 50 and 100 rep squats combined with something lower down such as 10/8/6 will promote growth, non specific hypertrophy rather than endurance per se


----------



## anabolic ant

i do like the wise grip chin-ups for width,but almost on the same par is wide grip lat pull-downs for the old upper body width,but,for overall mass and thickness with width,i'd go for barbell rows all day long,love em,a fav exercise!!!!


----------



## -S-K-

anabolic ant said:


> i do like the wise grip chin-ups for width,but almost on the same par is wide grip lat pull-downs for the old upper body width,but,for overall mass and thickness with width,i'd go for barbell rows all day long,love em,a fav exercise!!!!


Yeah barbell rows are great as well as wide grip pull ups, and tbh with advice from anabolic ant, with a back like he has I don't think you can go wrong :laugh:

Amazing back mate.


----------



## polar123

I am currently on a bulk up phase.

For back all I am doing is heavy deadlifts (upto 200kg)

Then I complete 3 sets of wide grip pull ups for width. 1x18 reps(max) 2x10.

I used to finish with 3 sets close grip t-bar (I could still feel the pump on the outside of lats) but my current gym have ditched the t-bar rower.

Variety is key, Wide grip pull ups, wide grip t-bars or BB rows.

If you don't feel the pump then reduce the weight. I see to many people just trying and use big weights for t-bars and bb rows and lose form.


----------



## Incredible Bulk

wide grip chins are a no no with my shoulders.... i place my hands where the bar starts to bend (knuckle).


----------



## guinness

Great thread and a great read. Here is my two cents.

For many years I worked back starting with chins and then lat pulldowns when too exhausted to do any more chins. Followed by deadlifts and then any combination of rows. Problem was my arms were shot to pieces by the time I got to rows that they didnt really do my back any good, even with straps. chins are a great exercise for sure and probably the best for width, however....

I get by far the best results when I do deadlifts first, followed by heavy rows. They are the core of my back workout. They built more muscle and more depth than anything else, and they also build some width I believe. I then use whatever energy I have left on chins/pulldowns.

For an advanced bodybuilder this may not be enough. If they are concentrating on finishing their back and happy with their overall size then they may well decide to put chins first. But for the other 95% of us I reckon just focus on rows and deads. Wish I had learned that earlier.


----------



## TOBE

Lat Pulldowns to chest imo


----------



## defdaz

Stiff arm pulldowns supersetted with chins or front pulldowns with a medium pronated grip (just a bit wider than shoulder width). The stiff arms pre-exhaust your lats and allow your lats to be the first muscles to give out when doing the chins / pulldowns, therefore allowing you to train your lats to failure.

So many people involve their biceps too much when doing pulldowns and end up giving their arms a great workout but not their backs 

I always try to visualise pulling with my elbows, not my hands.


----------



## MarkTSG

Great answer, pull with elbows and not the arms. I don't think it matters too much whether you row or pulldown (or up), it's how you pull. You gotta use the back and not the biceps. How many times have you finished a back workout because you're bi's are pumped?

It's also about working through a pull range of movement. Too wide a grip and you're not going to work through that full range, a narrow to medium grip (for me) is far superior.

It's all about elbow positioning and movement - as it is with training pecs and delts too. Think about origins and insertions as well as actions of the muscles, it'll certainly help.

Just my thoughts.


----------



## anabolic ant

also i'd like to add something i picked up off of dorian yates...he said that when performing a back exercise,you cannot get a contraction unless you back is arched...so i think with this is mind,how many people do get a proper contraction,squeeze and pump of this muscle?

in addition to this,back is a hard bodypart to train as it is a more feel muscle group...unlike most other bodyparts,you can visualise or see yourself training,and the actual muscle working!!!

with back it is a feeling and pump!!!

but getting back to the original issue...back width...dorian said,that if you use a wide grip,you will recruit the most upper width,but not really utilise the proper width or majority of the back....a narrow grip will pull your backand stretch you forward,but your arms being closer together actually pulls your lats out more wider...if you can viisualise this.....if for example you are doing seated cable rows...doing this wide grip,will have little or no effect...but do it narrow grip,you will pull forward and as your arms stretch forward...your back pulls around more,than what a wide grip would would pull your back round and out!!!!!

i have tried this quite effectively on a few exercises,but obviously not with barbell rows!!!!

although i rate chin ups and lat pulldowns very highly,because i get enormous pumps off of these exercises!!!!


----------



## paulo

as above chins--when i go swimming now i just kick off and flap the lats like a stingray:laugh:


----------



## BSD

*Rack Chins* - eliminate the legs entirely and use the arms as Hooks - if anyone does regular chins and moves to these - youll know what we mean when we say Back Width! The following morning youll notice Doms in the entire upper back like never before. :thumb:


----------



## ZAXXXXX

Chins for me, 52" chest and it's more lats than pecks. Wide grip chins with straps and thumbless grip for better isolation. :thumb:


----------



## Willie

For the people saying that doing 4-5 chins in a set is pointless, would it not be better to stick with it so you can build up to 10-12 in a set? I do chins to start and just do as many as i can plus some negatives, then do lat pulldowns later on.


----------



## Kezz

arent chins and pulldowns more or less the same movement??


----------



## pastanchicken

Never seen rack chins done before, just had a look on youtube.

Do you guys recommend these at all?


----------



## Beans

Kezz said:


> arent chins and pulldowns more or less the same movement??


Was going to ask the same question.

You know what they say about great minds Kezz...


----------



## Incredible Bulk

a pic i took last night, i'm on a bulk and yes i know my bf is high....

chins, t-bar rows, low pulley rows, deads, face pulls


----------



## ZAXXXXX

Twonky said:


> I trained back unsuccessfully for over a year. It was only when I started doing slow negative reps and really felt the pump that I made any progress. In the past I would go away with a little bit of pump and burnout forearms. Now I get proper DOM's with back just from slowing down the reps. I do sometimes as few as 3 reps on Chins. Its the only thing that has worked. I really never found banging out as many as possible especially helpful. I never got anywhere doing it that way.
> 
> What I rarely see mentioned is the importance of the concentric, eccentric. Surely the concentric involves biceps more than back? Laws of motion???? So would it not be more viable to do more prolonged eccentric as it involves the back without stressing the biceps which are the prodominant muscle involved in the pull part of the motion??? I'm not saying I know this as fact, if anyone can explain to me otherwise I'd like to hear it.


Try a thumbless grip and lifting straps on any pulling exersice for back

It isolates the back and reduces how much the bicept takes part, your grip wont give out before your lats do either.

I had the same prob you did when I first started training and the adjustment to grip and the use of straps worked wonders, give it ago with or without straps and see how it feels. :thumbup1:


----------



## krisjones24

its not how wide you back is its how small you can get your waiste that is the key


----------



## bizzlewood

when i do wide grip chins they really hurt my wrists

any tips


----------



## Kezz

yeah do heavy pulldowns instead


----------



## krisjones24

bizzlewood said:


> when i do wide grip chins they really hurt my wrists
> 
> any tips


use straps should help the problem:cool2:


----------



## jw007

krisjones24 said:


> its not how wide you back is its how small you can get your waiste that is the key


Thats just what skinny people say:lol: :lol:


----------



## bizzlewood

krisjones24 said:


> use straps should help the problem:cool2:


Problem is my gym doesn't have a lat pull down machine


----------



## krisjones24

bizzlewood said:


> Problem is my gym doesn't have a lat pull down machine


i didint say pull downs do chins with straps and if you want a wide back do power cleans


----------



## krisjones24

jw007 said:


> Thats just what skinny people say:lol: :lol:


he he you never say that then :tongue: :tongue:


----------



## krisjones24

they look to easy to me???


----------



## nathanlowe

Sort of look like supine rows ?


----------



## anabolic ant

jw007 said:


> Thats just what skinny people say:lol: :lol:


 :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: this is so true!!!

same as someone who is of small size,will always say the bigger guys dont have as much definition or condition as the small guys...this is pooh too!!!!!


----------



## Kezz

lol very true, the big guys have got muscle the skinny guys have just got big tendons, lol


----------



## krisjones24

Vince said:


> Have you tried them?


hey vince!

no i havent might give it a go next time i train back if i got some1 with me ill film it at stick it on hear so we can have a laugh at me trying to bang out 10 reps what weight shall i use 30kg?


----------



## nathanlowe

krisjones24 said:


> hey vince!
> 
> no i havent might give it a go next time i train back if i got some1 with me ill film it at stick it on hear so we can have a laugh at me trying to bang out 10 reps what weight shall i use 30kg?


It depends how strong you are. 30kg might be to heavy or it might be too light.


----------



## krisjones24

nathanlowe said:


> It depends how strong you are. 30kg might be to heavy or it might be too light.


well i can do this many chins?


----------



## nathanlowe

Vince said:


> Try doing them with an 8 sec negative.
> 
> Done like that i got up to a 30kg db...but i'm also a bit heavier than you


Do you think it would be good to superset these with chin ups ( wide pronated grip) ? ?


----------



## krisjones24

Vince said:


> Try doing them with an 8 sec negative.
> 
> Done like that i got up to a 30kg db...but i'm also a bit heavier than you


ok coll ill do my first set bodyweight then go from there ye im a bit fat at the mo bu tim still only 13.3 lol


----------



## ethos

Nice reps Kris, I'm jealous... I can only manage about 6-7 pullups, then it quickly declines to about 4-5 then 3 or so.

I'm a bit heavier at about 210lbs though.


----------



## krisjones24

ethos said:


> Nice reps Kris, I'm jealous... I can only manage about 6-7 pullups, then it quickly declines to about 4-5 then 3 or so.
> 
> I'm a bit heavier at about 210lbs though.


ye to be honest now im off season reps arnt that high lol

though i tend to do other things for my back off season keep chins to pre contest :thumb:


----------



## Daz

One arm cable rows I heard are brilliant for back width, providing that you pull your arm right back, aint tried em yet though lol


----------



## Kezz

to be honest i think back width is just a genetic thing......... but dumbell rows are the daddy


----------



## bkoz

When i was boxing i did chins every day wide as i could and my shoulder is nackerd.Every year i seem to injure it again doing chest or dips...I love t-bar rows old school style with bar in corner of room.


----------



## IronFed

Nine Pack said:


> Fair enough OSC, but it would be nice to know why you disagree.
> 
> The argument I had was based on training to promote muscular growth, and in that context it is perfectly true. In strength training, it may not be the case though. The body will learn to become as efficient as possible when performing a particular action on a regular basis. To become more efficient at it, it learns to recruit fewer bundles of fibres to perform the same action in order to save energy. As I have said many times, the human body will always choose the path of least resistance so if it knows what it is about to do, there's no way it will voluntarily recruit any more fibres than is absolutely necessary.
> 
> By choosing exercises that we have not done over & over for months & years, we trick the neuromuscular system into recruiting more fibres as it is still 'learning' the movement (or is not ready for it) & has not yet become very efficient at that particular series of muscular contractions. This is precisely why a beginner will see accelerated gains in the first few months of training, as it is not used to any of the movements so the body uses far more fibres & the stimulation is far greater. If you are training for strength, then a repeated pattern of the same movement over time will result in improved technique, and in turn more efficient neuromuscular activity, which is good in that type of training.


This makes a lot of sense, great post, is that perhaps one of the reasons Bodybuilders tend to be bigger than Powerlifters? I can kind of relate to what you are saying there as I've been on a strength based routine (using only about 6-10 compound exercises) and didn't see a lot of size gain although strength gains were really good.


----------



## ragahav

wide grip chin


----------



## msowerby18

supercell said:


> Have to agree with Paul on this. The wider the grip the more stress is placed on the bicep insertions and also the posterior deltoid. Think of the rear delt machine when the arms are forced wide, same kind of principle.
> 
> *The best chins of all for maximum stress on the Lats are medium grip ones* as stated in most BBing literature. It is a complete falacy that the wider the grip the wider the lats, infact the wider the grip the more injuries you open yourself up for especially in and around the deltoids and the rotator cuff.
> 
> Thats not to say wide chins wont yield results, its just that the aforementioned version will yield better ones.
> 
> J


Sorry if this is a stupid question but what would you class as a medium grip chin? ie. how far apart would you put your hands?


----------



## iron_uk

I pull down so my forearms are perpendicular to the ground, this is most comfortable for me and seems to cause least stress on the shoulders. My Favourite exercise will always be barbell rows but closely followed by T bar rows.


----------



## essexboy

supercell said:


> Have to agree with Paul on this. The wider the grip the more stress is placed on the bicep insertions and also the posterior deltoid. Think of the rear delt machine when the arms are forced wide, same kind of principle.
> 
> The best chins of all for maximum stress on the Lats are medium grip ones as stated in most BBing literature. It is a complete falacy that the wider the grip the wider the lats, infact the wider the grip the more injuries you open yourself up for especially in and around the deltoids and the rotator cuff.
> 
> Thats not to say wide chins wont yield results, its just that the aforementioned version will yield better ones.
> 
> J


im really glad that you wrote this.I was thinking how i was going to respond to the flack that would occur when i stated that a narrower grip will provide a greater ROM, and therefore more stimulation than a wide grip.itys a mistake, albeit a natural one.A narrow grip provides more movement than a wider one.This can easily be demonstrated.Thanks SC, your postion here, is far more credible than mine, glad we aggree.


----------



## defdaz

Let's remember that its the load/work on a muscle, not the range of extension and contraction that triggers a hypertrophic response from the body.


----------



## Dezw

Chins are great for the lats but not too wide.


----------



## miles2345

for me my back width has come on a huge amount from straight bar d-grip pulls heavy for 15s, much better growth personally then when i hammered chins


----------



## jw007

This poll is a classic example of the bodybuilding myth and old wives tales and level of knowledge on this board (prob sounds a bit condescending there, oh well  )

I cant believe the amount of people who have incorrectly voted wide grip chins are most effective way to build back\width


----------



## Guest

jw007 said:


> This poll is a classic example of the bodybuilding myth and old wives tales and level of knowledge on this board (prob sounds a bit condescending there, oh well  )
> 
> I cant believe the amount of people who have incorrectly voted wide grip chins are most effective way to build back\width


 And here is you doing the classic "science is right over real life experience", sure under hand narrow grip pulldowns stimulate the outer lats a tad more than wide grip chin ups but people such as my self who have done narrow grip pulldowns about 5 times in their life(funny enough 2 of those times have been in the past two weeks) built their width primarly with wide chin ups


----------



## paul s

medium grip chins, always


----------



## jw007

Con said:


> And here is you doing the classic "science is right over real life experience", sure under hand narrow grip pulldowns stimulate the outer lats a tad more than wide grip chin ups but people such as my self who have done narrow grip pulldowns about 5 times in their life(funny enough 2 of those times have been in the past two weeks) built their width primarly with wide chin ups


INCORRECT "ASSUMPTION" young PADAWAN...

For I did indeed use to believe wide grip chins were for width..

But alas they fcked my shoulders up and my biceps, so I attribute the majority of my huge back width in actual fact to medium

grip bent over rows...

I have not done wide grip chins in probably over 5 years as totally pointess IMO thro "real world experience"

And I have one of widest backs of anyone you know:whistling:

Also As for your back width, which is indeed impressive

Stop talking sh1t, you built that thro years of 300kg+ deadlifts:lol: :lol:


----------



## Big Dawg

I'm starting to think that wide grip chins aren't all that. Let's face it, Ronnie and Dorian didn't do them, and they had the best backs in the business.

In Dorian's seminar the other day, he said he savoured underhand narrow grip for all his back work. The reason for this was twofold - narrow grip = better contraction and underhand grip puts biceps in a much stronger position, so whereas it's usually the biceps that fail first in overhand work, here the lats are able to get to failure without the biceps going first.

I'm gonna start dorian style now - CG underhand pulldowns, underhand rows, DB rows, seated cable rows and deadlifts (and maybe some pullovers thrown in there too).


----------



## Guest

jw007 said:


> INCORRECT "ASSUMPTION" young PADAWAN...
> 
> For I did indeed use to believe wide grip chins were for width..
> 
> But alas they fcked my shoulders up and my biceps, so I attribute the majority of my huge back width in actual fact to medium
> 
> grip bent over rows...
> 
> I have not done wide grip chins in probably over 5 years as totally pointess IMO thro "real world experience"
> 
> And I have one of widest backs of anyone you know:whistling:
> 
> Also As for your back width, which is indeed impressive
> 
> Stop talking sh1t, you built that thro years of 300kg+ deadlifts:lol: :lol:


 PMSL:lol: I do some times wonder if you realise that 90% of the times i comment after you is purely to get these priceless responses:laugh: :thumbup1:

Allastair in every of Ronnies videos he is doing some sort of wide pull up or pull down, just needed to set you straight there LOL


----------



## jw007

Con said:


> PMSL:lol: *I do some times wonder if you realise that 90% of the times i comment after you is purely to get these priceless responses:laugh:* :thumbup1:
> 
> Allastair in every of Ronnies videos he is doing some sort of wide pull up or pull down, just needed to set you straight there LOL


yes I did actually:lol:, was going to comment yest....

However I thought it was to do with jealousy over my superior reputation and standing on the board, compounded by fact you were a miserable fck while dieting...

I apologise as TBH of late I thought you had a sense of humour failure:lol:

Glad this is not 100% the case


----------



## Big Dawg

Con said:


> PMSL:lol: I do some times wonder if you realise that 90% of the times i comment after you is purely to get these priceless responses:laugh: :thumbup1:
> 
> Allastair in every of Ronnies videos he is doing some sort of wide pull up or pull down, just needed to set you straight there LOL


I'm afraid I've got all Ronnie's training DVDs and I don't recall ever seeing him to a pullup. Ronnie does do all his back work with an overhand grip though, but everything Dorian says makes sense, and I find I get a much better pump doing underhand work. I've tried underhand CG chins and while they're much easier than wide grip chins I don't get a lot out of them.

Also, as you say EVERY, there are no pulldowns in the Unbelievable or On The Road. Just thought I'd set you straight there


----------



## bowen86

excuse my stupidity could someone expain chins or am i reading to much into it?

chin ups yeh?


----------



## Big Gunz

I don't get why chins arnt there? IMO there the best to build wide lats, along with the bread and butter exercise- Barbell Rows!


----------



## US2UK

*SOLUTION*

Mix up your workouts with a variety of wide and narrower hand positions as well as both underhand and overhand grip positions... hahah


----------



## Howe

Chin-ups


----------



## EDG301

Pull downs (squeeze at bottom/ stretch at top) or pullups.

But most importantly, a small waist will give the illusion of wide lats


----------



## wes

Yeah wide grip chins and read an article on here recently that said to use a thumbless grip to remove some of the the forearm flexors and biceps from the equation to place better stress on the lats. Will give it a go as it seems to make sense.


----------



## Nathrakh

EDG301 said:


> Pull downs (squeeze at bottom/ stretch at top) or pullups.
> 
> But most importantly, a small waist will give the illusion of wide lats


Totally agree - and the opposite is also true (i.e. wide shoulders will also add to the illusion of a wide back).


----------



## Eklektik

Wide grip chins for me... I found that deadlifting increased depth and thickness but not width.


----------



## alabbadi

Wide grip will put too much stress on the shoulders and is a pre requisite for rotator cuff injuries.

it also ristricts your range of motion to about 90 degress which is not ideal.

the narrower grip will give you a bigger range of motion about 180 degree and pace a lot more stress on the lats.

i have found that the narrower grip is best for me and has helped me get great results.

regards


----------



## king_jamie_h

Deadlifts definetly gave me the mass on my back. I think this vaires on your body type and the way you train.


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## weeman

think i already posted this before,and its clearly fell on deaf ears lol

The only way to increase back wigth is to make the muslces thicker,they cannot expand in width,only grow thicker thereby getting wider that way,but thats it,there is no magical width builder.

Good example for you

Dorian Yates

reverse grip barbell rows

nautilus machine pullovers

close grip pulldowns

now tell me in that routine where his wide grip this and that is? did he not have one of the widest backs you've ever seen?


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## Wee G1436114539

Weeman,

That's cause a close grip works the lats a lot better but don't tell everyone eh...lol.


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## weeman

Wee G said:


> Weeman,
> 
> That's cause a close grip works the lats a lot better but don't tell everyone eh...lol.


sssssshhh i know that i know that,but dont tell everyone:lol:


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## Wee G1436114539

I know, can't be too careful, wouldn't want these Betas to be running around with real wings now would we?


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## Bambi

Close grip weighted chins with the palms semi-supinated, really emphasising the stretch and starting each rep from a dead hang. 10x3 of that and my back is screaming! Then T-Bar rows old-school in the corner squeezing at the top of every rep for 4x8 then a final burn set of 20.

Wide grip anything hit my shoulders more than anything else I found and wide-grip chins hurt my rotator cuff something awful


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## bassmonster

close grip underarm grip lat pull downs for me..


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## anabolic ant

weeman said:


> think i already posted this before,and its clearly fell on deaf ears lol
> 
> The only way to increase back wigth is to make the muslces thicker,they cannot expand in width,only grow thicker thereby getting wider that way,but thats it,there is no magical width builder.
> 
> Good example for you
> 
> Dorian Yates
> 
> reverse grip barbell rows
> 
> nautilus machine pullovers
> 
> close grip pulldowns
> 
> now tell me in that routine where his wide grip this and that is? did he not have one of the widest backs you've ever seen?


your damn right wee!!!!

but i heard back width was directly related to girth of your p*nis...

see i cant figure this out cos i only have a pencil job of 3cm round!!!!


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## Nelson

The free weights area where I train is a bit small for dead-lifts.

Do any of you chaps ever use the smith machine for deadlifting...?


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## bizzlewood

Nelson said:


> The free weights area where I train is a bit small for dead-lifts.
> 
> Do any of you chaps ever use the smith machine for deadlifting...?


i dont think you can use the smith because the movement would be odd


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## Tasty

You can really hurt yourself deadlifting on a smith, trust me!


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## vlb

loved deadlifts but they screwed my back (poor form i know)

so now i am doing light deads and making sure my form is good....nothing will screw you more than bad form on deads...


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## Phez

I find stiff leg deadlifts work my back more then regular ones


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## SK-XO

Ever since adding in Wide Grip Chins my back width has come on leaps and bounds. Thats not to say other exercises haven't contributed to this, but I defo feel they have helped a lot. So imo best back exercises is wide grip chins for the width, for me anyway.


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## Bambi

I could never feel underhand chins in my lats just my biceps. Neutral narrow grip so to stretch the muscle all the way each rep from a dead start none of this going halfway up and down you see posers doing.


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## Bri

LOOOOOVE WIDE GRIP CHINS!!


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## Bri

stay as far away from the smith as you can when deadlifting! IMO


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## Khaos1436114653

i personally like seated cable rows...but the seat has to be far back so i get a good stretch in my lats, it blows my lats and grows them best for me


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## Small_tank

The best for me is the chins with some added weight


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## mal

stretching is good for widening your lat's.


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## MillionG

Looking forward to being strong enough to do a decent amount of wide-grip pullups.

They're a ****ing bitch lol.


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## Bri

MillionG said:


> Looking forward to being strong enough to do a decent amount of wide-grip pullups.
> 
> They're a ****ing bitch lol.


yeah tell me about it ma, they're pretty tough arn't they? Specially for us natty teens lol.

How many can you do at the moment for a set? I got 11 other day was pretty chuffed 

How much you weighin now million?


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## MXD

chins..


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## solidcecil

Khaos said:


> i personally like seated cable rows...but the seat has to be far back so i get a good stretch in my lats, it blows my lats and grows them best for me


x2


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## big_nige

wide chins and pulldowns for width!!!! im living proof i had two dwarfs rock climbing my back the other day until i kicked them off. huuuuge i tell ya, strap some weight to ya to 4 chins!


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## MarcusWright

I am the same can do em, but cant do them wide yet,can do them close grip with palms facing each other

but wide grips i can manage 1 or 2 reps



MillionG said:


> Looking forward to being strong enough to do a decent amount of wide-grip pullups.
> 
> They're a ****ing bitch lol.


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## Guest

Wide grip pull ups fuk my shoulders.


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## MarcusWright

sounds daft but wish i was 10 stone maybe easier lol

instead of been 17lol


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## Guest

I would never wish to be skinny to perform an exercise :lol:


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## dtlv

Close grip hammer/neutral grip pullups for width. Everytime.


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## MillionG

Bri said:


> yeah tell me about it ma, they're pretty tough arn't they? Specially for us natty teens lol.
> 
> How many can you do at the moment for a set? I got 11 other day was pretty chuffed
> 
> How much you weighin now million?


Haven't tried in a long time, wouldn't expect to get much more than 10, even fresh.

Couldn't really say mate, but fluctuates around 74-75kg. Fvcking gym keeps getting different scales that all tell me I weigh different amounts.


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## dtlv

ruaidhri said:


> what makes these better for width than, say, widegrip overhand pullups?
> 
> is one exercise really better for width than the other? I mean, any exercise that hits your lats, your lats are gonna grow in the same way right?
> 
> this whole "thickness", "width" stuff has got me confused, is it not just down to genetics? just like quad "sweeps"


I think you are probably right overall, so really it just comes down to the exercise that gives you personally the best feel in the muscle and can get the best contraction.

For me it'd be these, closely followed by one arm rows with little twist at the top to get a peak contraction.

Genetics by far the main thing though as you say.


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## jordi

Was just about to write that it would depend on the person doing the lift as to which one stimulated the muscle better but someone beat me to it . :whistling:

For me Neutral grip Rows work the top part of my lats more than wide chins which seem to hit the lower portion more. Maybe something to do with which direction they're stressed in? I dunno, just know it's true for me.


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## nitrogen

Neutral grip pull ups and barbell rows for me


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## nitrogen

neutral grip is when your palms face each other, as if doing hammer curls.


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## nitrogen

alternate grips to see which works best for you


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## dtlv

ruaidhri said:


> thanks. what are neutral grip pullups? just normal pullups, overhand with grip a tad wider than shoulder width?


Exactly as Nitrogen says, palms facing each other like in hammer curls. :thumbup1:


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## mark67

seated rows with with wide grip the bigger the bar the bigger the back


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## IronFed

As already said, I think it's mainly genetics so really it's down to whatever exercise you personally feel hits your lats the hardest

For me it's close-grip weighted chins, rest paused


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## bigbear21

dont agree with the wide grip. shoulder width i feel works alot better wider range of motion


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## QBall

Big deadlifts for me.

You dont see many powerlifts with a narrow back... yet i doubt they can perform a single wide grip pull up.


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## DNA

Medium Grip Chins and Wide Grip Side to Side Pull Ups. Hold at peak contraction and control the eccentric phase using different tempos from standard 2-1-x-1, to more TUT based 4-1-x-1 to the relatively unused but effective 3-3-x-3.


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## Bonzer

Wide grip pullups


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## shauno

the more i think about this stuff the more i realise you have to pick a row you like the most and feel the most and same with a vertical pull.

get strong as **** at them


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## StephenC

I found a marked improvement in back development when I developed my technique/strength enough to control and squeeze my back while chinning.

I also doing rows with the rope attachment to extend the range of movement from time to time.


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## hsmann87

I've never believed the wide grip hype.

If wide grip chins build width then why doesnt everyone do super wide grip bench press to get wide chests??


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## gym rat

iv never done any pull down work or chins, heavy rows and delts built my width and i reckon im doing alryt


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## hsmann87

gym rat said:


> iv never done any pull down work or chins, heavy rows and delts built my width and i reckon im doing alryt


Good work, but perhaps your lats would benefit from some vertical plane movement in addition to your horozontal plane and static plane movements?


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## bravo9

Ive never done wide grip pull ups, normally find rows hit my lats more than any other exercise, may start throwing in a few wide grip chins tho to see if it improves my back abit


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## Ash1981

this thread is a decent read

but what can be done if you have a lat inbalance?


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## shauno

you havnt got a lat inbalance you just need bigger lats.

any two handed row


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## EchoSupplements

I noticed a lot of difference from starting pullups in terms of width.


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## Mowgli

I've had the best growth in terms of width from close grip chins supersetted with straight arm rope pulldowns.


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## Jonnyboi

Never used to do any rows mostly all pulldowns close and wide now ive started to do rows i can feel more stress on my lats than i did before when doing pulldowns couldt do one chin up to save my life to fat.


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## ed220

For me its rows, barbell and t-bar.


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## miggs

Wide grip pull ups, old school....


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## miggs

Not forgetting the dumbbell row, proper old school...


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## C.Hill

WIDEGRIP CHINS!!!


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## Matt 1

this dates back to 2007 if its not already been said lol

-Width comes from the lats, so widegrip pull ups

-Well developed medial delts can give the appearance of a wider back IMO

Having a narrow waist helps to, but, this is really just genetics


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## Al n

I was told that Lat flares are good for this. Standing in front of the pull down machine, almost straight arms with a slightly wider than shoulder width grip and bringing the arms down to the waist while keeping the arms almost straight.

I do feel it more in the arm pit area of the tricep but also in the target area.

Any thoughts on this?


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## synthasize

Dorian Yates always said that on heavy rows and pulldowns a narrow grip was better, as it stretches the lats more. Next time you're in the gym try some pulldowns with the narrow A-frame grip and really let the weight stretch your lats at the top.


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## nWo

synthasize said:


> Dorian Yates always said that on heavy rows and pulldowns a narrow grip was better, as it stretches the lats more.


That, but he said the main reason being because by using a narrow grip you put the biceps in a mechanically stronger position, and by doing this you help ensure that you biceps don't fail before your lats are done.


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## Wardy33

synthasize said:


> Dorian Yates always said that on heavy rows and pulldowns a narrow grip was better, as it stretches the lats more. Next time you're in the gym try some pulldowns with the narrow A-frame grip and really let the weight stretch your lats at the top.


I always use this technique.. and also 6 seconds negatives absolutely fck my back to pieces!


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## Dark sim

Cant say I've seen anyone comment on different grips hitting upper or lower lats? Wide grip pull ups are upper lats. Majority of width comes from lower lat, which is achieved from a neutral grip or underhand movements.


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## Muscle Supermkt

Deadlifts are an all round back builder, especially for thickness! Pulldowns and chins are great too.


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## Narcissus

wide chin or pullover with rope


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## Kristina

Definitely chins and pull ups.

On a side note... the most effective exercises for the lats (or any muscle group) will always be those that force the muscle to pull towards the point of origin; as oppose to doing something like lat pulldowns will effectively pull the muscle towards the point of insertion.

When doing pull ups / chin ups, this forces the muscle to work against the direction it's naturally designed to, which is going to stimulate far more muscle growth and build far more strength!

Also.. lifts like deadlifts and rows are GREAT back-builders (primarily rhomboids) but not necessarily the best for lat growth specifically (seeing as we're talking about 'width' in this thread).


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## 1manarmy

Chins/pull downs


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## harryalmighty

kristina said:


> Definitely chins and pull ups.
> 
> On a side note... the most effective exercises for the lats (or any muscle group) will always be those that force the muscle to pull towards the point of origin; as oppose to doing something like lat pulldowns will effectively pull the muscle towards the point of insertion.
> 
> When doing pull ups / chin ups, this forces the muscle to work against the direction it's naturally designed to, which is going to stimulate far more muscle growth and build far more strength!
> 
> Also.. lifts like deadlifts and rows are GREAT back-builders (primarily rhomboids) but not necessarily the best for lat growth specifically (seeing as we're talking about 'width' in this thread).


this.

built my back over the last 2 years from heavy (for me) weighted chins and heavy hammer strength pulls, id say i have decent width for my size.


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## Kristina

harryalmighty said:


> this.
> 
> built my back over the last 2 years from heavy (for me) weighted chins and heavy hammer strength pulls, id say i have decent width for my size.
> 
> View attachment 156515


Wow. That is pretty damn epic!


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## Guest

Wide grip pull ups and close grip pull downs at 45 degrees with a squeeze at the bottom.

They built my width but I like thickness more.


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## harryalmighty

Roadguy said:


> What's your waist size


32in. 5ft11


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## harryalmighty

Spawn of Haney said:


> Wide grip pull ups and close grip pull downs at 45 degrees with a squeeze at the bottom.
> 
> They built my width but I like thickness more.


agreed. personally feel that thickness is harder to build as well.


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## ryda

Been doing pull ups and lat pulls for years but only started to see real shape to my back since I started mastering barbell rows


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## UkWardy

I also feel like barbell rows have a good effect on my back width. Pull ups can bite me...


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## CinciBB

Barbell rows, machine rows, DB rows, 1-Arm rows.... Pull ups. A wise man once said "rows for the hoes"


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## AlexB18

personally ive always just stuck with deadlifts, narrow grip cable pulls (neutral grip) and barbell rows keeping my elbows in, I can always feel my lats getting worked nicely just with those 3, to be fair ive only just started doing it like this since I read that article by Dorian Yates on back training and it working nicely, that said theres not much width to my back at present other than fat but I can definitely feel them being worked


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## nWo

Vertical pulls for width, horizontal pulls for thickness.


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## theBEAST2002

TypeR said:


> ive gone from doing wide grip pulldowns to close grip and found it worked better, thats just confirmed it for me thanks!
> 
> Ben


^^^ This ^^^

And rows. People don't realise that doing wide grip pull ups/downs works your lats in a partial range of motion. Close grip and reverse close grip is far more effective. If you have problem with bicep involvement then learning to do the exercise correctly and sweep the weight in.


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