# Palms up front DB raises - What's it working?



## Joshua

If a person does a movement similar to a front raise (of the type to work the front delts) but with the palms up, what muscles are being stimulated? I have found that it seems to work the upper part of the chest (pec minor?) and to some extent the front delt but I am having difficulty identifying what else is activated.

I am also unsure if I have a problem with my flexibility on this type of movement, as if I take a barbell with a palms up, shoulder width grip I get some pain towards the top part of the motion ie when the bar is at head height. Is this normal, or should one have no problem with lifting in this manner.

Any thoughts welcome.

Thanks,

J


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## DNC

I get this problem mate but only on my left shoulder as its a bit knackered.I find if i use Dumb-bells i can pop the elbow out a touch making it relatively pain free.


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## Guest

Joshua said:


> If a person does a movement similar to a front raise (of the type to work the front delts) but with the palms up, what muscles are being stimulated? I have found that it seems to work the upper part of the chest (pec minor?) and to some extent the front delt but I am having difficulty identifying what else is activated.
> 
> I am also unsure if I have a problem with my flexibility on this type of movement, as if I take a barbell with a palms up, shoulder width grip I get some pain towards the top part of the motion ie when the bar is at head height. Is this normal, or should one have no problem with lifting in this manner.
> 
> Any thoughts welcome.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> J


A few questions Josh... Where do you get the pain? Is there a reason you do it with palms up, as opposed to palms forward? It seems that palms up would be very taxing on the wrists if using heavy weight. To be honest I have never heard of anyone doing shoulder press movements with palms up. I guess maybe when I do BB shoulder press my palms are slightly turned up, but more forward than up


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## stonecoldzero

J -

I've recently been messing about with a few different "palms up" rasie variations. Even tried it with plates (an "old school" 70's favourite apparently).

It's not the pec minor, it's the clavicular pec.

I've found the most effective way to achieve relatively isolated activation of this area is to use a low cable set up ie low handle cable attachments a couple of steps forward of the attachments, hands at sides or slightly further out, alternate palm up raises to opposite shoulder or middle chest to face height finsih / squeeze.

To get a feel for it, I used a light weight one handed and put the other hand over the area - you should feel it in isolation.

After I'm done, I grab a light plate and do the same movement with bent elbows in front to face high.

Google clavicular pec cable raise - that's how I found a few video examples.

All the best 

SCZ


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## XJPX

y do it tht movement at all lol, u cnt use large enuff weight to warrnt its use over shoulder press, so y bother lol?....


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## stonecoldzero

I've spent almost 25 years tryiing to "catch up" that tiny little piece of pec. 

I've tried every damn thing I could come up with. This is just my most recent attempt. :laugh:

Everything I'm currently doing for chest is focusing on the upper part - but particularly under the clavicles.

After 25 years, though, I'm pretty sure it's an attachment issue rather than a lack of trying.


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## Joshua

The movement I am thinking of is a palms up version of http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPDlEqjMi-8.



ZEUS said:


> A few questions Josh... Where do you get the pain? Is there a reason you do it with palms up, as opposed to palms forward? It seems that palms up would be very taxing on the wrists if using heavy weight. To be honest I have never heard of anyone doing shoulder press movements with palms up. I guess maybe when I do BB shoulder press my palms are slightly turned up, but more forward than up


Because my upper chest needs some extra loving ie( it is under developed / too small ), and I have been experimenting to find out what works. It is also a matter of curiosity, as I like to find movements which I am weak on, ( irregardless of how odd the movement is ) and I like to get strong on it.

It is an odd pain in one of my upper arms possibly around the bicep or front delt. I am also particularly weak on this movement, although the wrists seem to be holding up ok.

Are we talking of the same movement B? I have included a video of the palms down version of what I am getting at.



stonecoldzero said:


> J -
> 
> I've recently been messing about with a few different "palms up" rasie variations. Even tried it with plates (an "old school" 70's favourite apparently).
> 
> It's not the pec minor, it's the clavicular pec.
> 
> I've found the most effective way to achieve relatively isolated activation of this area is to use a low cable set up ie low handle cable attachments a couple of steps forward of the attachments, hands at sides or slightly further out, alternate palm up raises to opposite shoulder or middle chest to face height finsih / squeeze.
> 
> To get a feel for it, I used a light weight one handed and put the other hand over the area - you should feel it in isolation.
> 
> After I'm done, I grab a light plate and do the same movement with bent elbows in front to face high.
> 
> Google clavicular pec cable raise - that's how I found a few video examples.
> 
> All the best
> 
> SCZ


Thanks for the clarification on the muscle involved.

I have not tried doing the movement across the body in that way. The area I am targeting does seem to be hit with low cable crossovers where the end position is from somewhere around neck and head height. When I get back in the gym I will give these a try. Thanks.



XJPX said:


> y do it tht movement at all lol, u cnt use large enuff weight to warrnt its use over shoulder press, so y bother lol?....


Curiosity, desperation in wanting a bigger upper chest, getting stronger in unusual movements, etc. I would not use it instead of shoulder press, arnies or anything like that.



stonecoldzero said:


> I've spent almost 25 years tryiing to "catch up" that tiny little piece of pec.
> 
> I've tried every damn thing I could come up with. This is just my most recent attempt. :laugh:
> 
> Everything I'm currently doing for chest is focusing on the upper part - but particularly under the clavicles.
> 
> After 25 years, though, I'm pretty sure it's an attachment issue rather than a lack of trying.


It sounds as if we have the same goal. I love doing dips just for the fun of it, but trying to balance this out with some upper pec work is proving to be tricky.

Thanks a lot guys - I really appreciate all your thoughts on this.

J


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## Guest

I see what your saying now Josh.... A front dumbell raise with palms facing up... I read your post wrong. I have never tried those. I do alternate my front raises with palms down and also facing each other. I tend to do them more with palms facing each other as I feel a better isolation with the front head of the delt.. Sorry I couldnt help...


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## Joshua

No problem B - thanks a lot for posting though.

I will be trying my front raises with palms facing inwards though.

Cheers mate,

J


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## glen danbury

front delt, clavicular head of the pec (both flexion of shoulder)

in addition your lower traps will be more heavily worked as the external rotation of the shoulder will result in depression of the scapula compared to normal raises


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## XJPX

i think in the quest for a bigger upper chest an isolation movement shifting wat 20likos a side isnt going to cut it much if ur already doing real heavy high incline presses and they havent hit tht area very well.

for my upper chest i put the smith on the highest seat tht is still incline, and real slow negatives to to the top of collarbones, hold in the bottom part for a second, then squeeze the weight back up insted of pressing it back up, totally using solely chest as if hitting a pose....try tht insted of ur silly cable front raise thingy ma bobbies haha  and thanks for the reps by the way bro x


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## phys sam

its could be your long head of biceps giving you problems

as it mimicks the orthopaedic test movement designed to stress the long head of biceps

I wouldn't do it for that reason


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## mal

incline dumbell presses mate the best ex by far,sqeeze like F**K at the top,cable is ok for definition.and avoid smith machines for compound movments unless you want to tear the crup out of your muscle.


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## stonecoldzero

XJPX said:


> i think in the quest for a bigger upper chest an isolation movement shifting wat 20likos a side isnt going to cut it much if ur already doing real heavy high incline presses and they havent hit tht area very well.
> 
> for my upper chest i put the smith on the highest seat tht is still incline, and real slow negatives to to the top of collarbones, hold in the bottom part for a second, then squeeze the weight back up insted of pressing it back up, totally using solely chest as if hitting a pose....try tht insted of ur silly cable front raise thingy ma bobbies haha  and thanks for the reps by the way bro x


I'm already doing a number of pressing movements similar to those you're describing. But I will definitely try the neg smith movement - presumably elbows in.

The cable movement is for when I've finished all presses. Otherwise, as you rightly say, the weight in and of itself wouldn't be worthwhile.

Thanks for the extra info.


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## Joshua

XJPX said:


> i think in the quest for a bigger upper chest an isolation movement shifting wat 20likos a side isnt going to cut it much if ur already doing real heavy high incline presses and they havent hit tht area very well.
> 
> for my upper chest i put the smith on the highest seat tht is still incline, and real slow negatives to to the top of collarbones, hold in the bottom part for a second, then squeeze the weight back up insted of pressing it back up, totally using solely chest as if hitting a pose....try tht insted of ur silly cable front raise thingy ma bobbies haha  and thanks for the reps by the way bro x


Fair points J - thanks. I suspect that my lack of activation in the upper chest may be something to do with my scapular position being a bit off for a number of years whilst training. Although this seems to have been fixed to a great extend through consciously pinching the scapular together when training chest, my upper chest is still lagging badly. As an aside, I have found that using electrical stimulation of the upper chest makes me feel a part of my musculature which I never seem to hit with weights, which adds to my suspicion that I am not activating the upper chest properly.

I will give your suggestion a trial when this damn snow clears. Thanks.



phys sam said:


> its could be your long head of biceps giving you problems
> 
> as it mimicks the orthopaedic test movement designed to stress the long head of biceps
> 
> I wouldn't do it for that reason


That is an very interesting, as one exercise that I have always had massive difficulty with is the upright row (so much so that I generally avoid it), and the pain with the palms up front raise is in the same arm as that which gave me problems with the upright row. The pain in the upright row is very odd - the best way I can describe it is that it feels like an elastic band suddenly being pulled over a ridge in my bicep - I know that sounds a bit odd.

If this mimics the test movement, would it not be a good stimulus to do ie would it work the long head too? Sorry for all the questions, but I am curious about all this stuff.



mal said:


> incline dumbell presses mate the best ex by far,sqeeze like F**K at the top,cable is ok for definition.and avoid smith machines for compound movments unless you want to tear the crup out of your muscle.


I do DB presses although I am limited by the DB at my gym so it tends to be BB instead. I still do not feel that I am recruiting the right area though.

My sincere thanks to everyone for your thoughts on this matter.

J


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## phys sam

Sorry Joshua, I only just checked this post.

The test is a pain provocation test, so no. It tries to put your long head tendon in a vulnerable position.

I don't think you don't need to try and do any odd exercises to stimulate it over the short head. I can't see any benefits.....


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