# More DNP, T3 and ECA questions.



## BigRedSwitch (Apr 12, 2013)

Hiya, all,

I've been researching!  I've literally done nothing but read about the more intensive weight-loss drugs this week, but I'm still coming up with a lot of questions based on what seem to be inconsistent messages.

Here's the questions - can anyone help me with some solid answers?

1) T3 - on d-hacks mail, it states that this is 'required when using DNP'. I've not seen this anywhere else, is this correct?

2) T3 actually seems more dangerous (long term) than DNP (if used in low doses, obv!), and looks to need a long time to scale-down it's use to re-boot your Thyroid. Is this as big a nightmare as it sounds?

3) When using DNP, the first (large) post I read stated that many more carbs were needed to make it work effectively. Elsewhere it says that I should lower my carb intake, after wiping out my glycogen for 3 days prior to using. Which is correct?

4) As DNP raises your metabolism, it seems counter-intuitive to raise this further by using it alongside an ECA stack, but this is recommended elsewhere. What's the deal?

5) As DNP always used alongside something else, is it worth cycling the other substance first before introducing DNP?

6) On DNP, general recommendations tend to be based around high doses of vitamins as well as electrolytes. I understand the concept of electrolytes, but how do I 'dose up' on them?

7) The general consensus seems to be that the only real side effects of DNP are incredible bodyheat and a degree of exhaustion - is there anything more significant I need to watch for (I'll only be on a low dose - 125mg a day)

8) As dehydration seems to be the biggest danger on DNP, should I be setting an alarm to wake up and drink during the night?

9) Based on the fact I feel I have about 28lbs to lose (most of which is fat) before I'm at my ideal weight, how many cycles should I be planning on the DNP dose I'm going on?

That's it for the moment, I think. I'm really interested in using this (have ordered from D-hacks based on the amount of forum feedback), but want to be sure I'm doing everything right. I've found out everything I can using the search function (which incidentally seems to be broken at the moment?), and trawling the web, but the questions above are the inconsistencies in the information I can find. When this form of treatment has such a big potential for ****-ups, I want to make sure I understand it inside and out, getting it right the *first* time so I can minimise the amount of cycles I have to do.

Thanks in advance for any advice, chaps. 

BRS


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## Benchbum (Apr 20, 2011)

If you have 28lbs to use then I wouldn't be looking at any weightloss drugs yet (bar maybe ECA pre cardio)

But if your insisting on going down this route then go in with both eyes open, personally DNP is too much an unknown long term to justify its use for something you could get with zero drugs


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## BigRedSwitch (Apr 12, 2013)

I've stripped a lot of fat, but it's still hanging around my waist. I'm also 6'5", and pretty lean everywhere else - the 28 is an estimate, not definitive. It may actually be less based on pure fat loss, but I don't really know how to assess that.

Also - I do think I'm going into it with my eyes open; just trying to establish all the facts.


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## Benchbum (Apr 20, 2011)

Pictures?


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## BigRedSwitch (Apr 12, 2013)

Can't post pix - I'm at work at the moment. Plus quite difficult to take with a camera phone! 

Any answers to any of my questions?


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## Foxy13 (Apr 10, 2013)

Subbed. Also interested.


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## DiggyV (May 6, 2011)

BigRedSwitch said:


> Hiya, all,
> 
> I've been researching!  I've literally done nothing but read about the more intensive weight-loss drugs this week, but I'm still coming up with a lot of questions based on what seem to be inconsistent messages.
> 
> ...


1/. DNP may interrupt the conversion of T4 to T3 (a contentious issue with reports that it is the case, and others that it has no effect), so taking T3 replaces the T3 your body is not producing, without it you basically grind to a halt.

2/. It can be an issue (again contentious) if you run it long term with no other drugs, as you are basically augmanting your own natural production and the levels of Thyroid Stimulating Hormone (the one that triggers the release of T4) drop, and can become zero if you use it at high enough doses. HOWEVER on DNP you are just adding in the T3 that your body is not converting. Therefore TSH levels should remain OK, and should continue once you stop the DNP and T3.

3/. I think the problem is that the high carbs route is based on the fact that you are sweating more therefore burning cals, its not you are just stoking a cell level furnace with carbs, not actually burning fats. What you need to do is keep carbs lower - this forces more fats to be burned.

4/. DNP is not raising your metabolism per se, although the net effect is the same. It just forces your body to burn fat rather than stored glycogen, as the sugar->glycogen transport is blocked and instead energy much come from fats. Also DNP burns massive cals every day - maybe 2,500, where ECA will raise your metabolic rate by may be 6%. on 3000 cals a day this is 180 cals burned. so there is no point using ECA with DNP as the effects wont be noticed. ECA does other things like suppress appetite, so it responsible for more weightloss than 180 cals - but still wont be noticed.

5/. DNP is not always used against something else, in fact I would suggest it is normally run in its own as a fat loss agent - remember teh T3 is being added not as a fatloss ingerdient but as replacement to the missing natural T3.

6/. THe vitamins are added as DNP increases free-radicals in the body so you need to add in ant-oxidants to combat them. These anti oxidants are: VitC @ 3000mg per day, Vit E @ 800IU per day, Alpha Lipoic Acid @ 1200mg a day, and then if ou get a dry throat take 15ml Glycerol 1-3 times a day. On the electrolytes the easiest way is to grab some Dioralyte (or Boots own version) and take this once or twice a day. It just replaces the salts (Sodium and Potassium being the most important) that you lose when sweating.

7/. You can get a little diarrhoea after 3 -4 days, but normally will pass after a couple more. So dont [email protected] or it may end up as a shart.

8/. NO need to wake up - even when I was running 250mg a day, I used to drink a big glass or two prior to sleeping, and then again in the morning and was fine. You'll need to get the night time drink right though so you dont endup having to wake to pee! :lol:

9/. Start with 125mg, if you can cope then up it to 250, or perhaps alternate 125 and 250... edit: removed all the non-essential info on hypoglycaemia - forgot BRS was Type 1 - DOH!

Holler if you have more Qs...

:thumb:


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## kelvinseal (Nov 4, 2008)

Diggy V

Thats awesome info there mate and answered some of my ow queries, I have a 23stone mate of lard and he has been on 125mg 1st thing in the morning, same diet, same cardio etc and has lost 8.3lbs in 1 week, i am about 20% bodyfat and on 250mg in the morning same diet i have been on for months and i have lost 6.6lbs this week, my wife is 9st9lbs and in 1 week she is 9st4lbs on 125mg per day(no gym) as her job involves a lot of walkingeach day, previously she had not been losing weight nor had i, my friend was losing 2lbs a week. So it does work, but the sides for us is prefuse sweaating all day, not as bad in the evening and with a few warm days its been nasty but will run for 2weeks, then 2 weeks off and do 2 cycles


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## BigRedSwitch (Apr 12, 2013)

Diggy V - nice one, mate. Perfectly answers my questions.

The hypoclycemia issue is unlikely to be a problem for me - entirely the opposite, tbh. As I mention in one of my other threads, I'm Type-1 Diabetic, so if my insulin requirement drops through the floor, it's a non-issue! I'm certainly used to hypo's too - been dealing with them for the last 36 years! 

But I have to say - 2500 cals per day!? WOW! Here's hoping it works for me!


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## DiggyV (May 6, 2011)

BigRedSwitch said:


> Diggy V - nice one, mate. Perfectly answers my questions.
> 
> The hypoclycemia issue is unlikely to be a problem for me - entirely the opposite, tbh. As I mention in one of my other threads, I'm Type-1 Diabetic, so if my insulin requirement drops through the floor, it's a non-issue! I'm certainly used to hypo's too - been dealing with them for the last 36 years!
> 
> But I have to say - 2500 cals per day!? WOW! Here's hoping it works for me!


Have edited that bit a little - DOH!!

Be extra careful with blood sugar then mate as it cuts off the glycogen -> blood route, but as you will have blood glucose monitoring I am sure you will be OK :thumb:

I lost about 3/4 lb+ a day on 250mg a day, you could see the weight dropping daily. a pound of fat is roughly 3500 - 3750 cals, so 2500 a day is easily achievable from personal experience not net heresay. Most of the guys on here tend to know that pretty much all I write on here (and there are quite a lot of full blown articles now) is based on personal knowledge and experimentation, which on occasion can get quite extreme - 140 bp resting heart rate anyone :lol: .


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## Bull Terrier (May 14, 2012)

DiggyV said:


> Have edited that bit a little - DOH!!
> 
> Be extra careful with blood sugar then mate as it cuts off the glycogen -> blood route, but as you will have blood glucose monitoring I am sure you will be OK :thumb:
> 
> I lost about 3/4 lb+ a day on 250mg a day, you could see the weight dropping daily. a pound of fat is roughly 3500 - 3750 cals, so 2500 a day is easily achievable from personal experience not net heresay. Most of the guys on here tend to know that pretty much all I write on here (and there are quite a lot of full blown articles now) is based on personal knowledge and experimentation, which on occasion can get quite extreme - 140 bp resting heart rate anyone :lol: .


Diggy - when you're on 250mg of DNP per day what sort of calories are you on? What calorie defecit? I've set up a daily calorie defecit of about 700 calories (with around 40g per day of carbs), but unsure if it's about right or not.


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## DiggyV (May 6, 2011)

Bull Terrier said:


> Diggy - when you're on 250mg of DNP per day what sort of calories are you on? What calorie defecit? I've set up a daily calorie defecit of about 700 calories (with around 40g per day of carbs), but unsure if it's about right or not.


When i was on 250mg, I was running about the same as you 700 cal deficit (without the DNP this should be 1.5lb a week loss), but carbs I had up at between 50 and 100g - depending on how I felt, and whether I was feeling a little hypo. You may find 40g too low. I don't need to tell you how to ensure your blood glucose levels are good :lol: but a few more spread evenly will help. Even outside meals as rice cakes or dilute isotonic type drinks.


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## Bull Terrier (May 14, 2012)

I'm trying to keep carbs as low as feasible to avoid sweating too much..

At the moment I have to put up with enough as it is what with jitters, shakes, heat, and yellow fingers. :lol:


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## DiggyV (May 6, 2011)

Bull Terrier said:


> I'm trying to keep carbs as low as feasible to avoid sweating too much..
> 
> At the moment I have to put up with enough as it is what with jitters, shakes, heat, and yellow fingers. :lol:


Sorry BRS will be able to monitor Glucose - didn't notice it was you BT. 

Although the extra carbs will make you sweat, it is much better to do this then to go Hypo. You really feel [email protected], I would rather sweat all day than go hypo - I hate it. at 40g I would hypo every day, just no way I could run DNP like that. Seriously consider 50-100 mate - spread them out and you probably wont sweat that bad - particularly if you choose more complex carbs. Strangey Sweet potato gives you less sweats than potato as overall the carbs are harder for your body to release - brown rice, wholegrain breads - not because white bread is bad (dont get me started on the bullshit spread about how white carbs are bad for you :lol: ) - but because you will not get a big surge of sugars in the blood and will make the sweats easier, and you may not notice them.

And my advice to anyone taking DNP (and the nutters that use Insulin out of choice ) is to carry lucozade with you just in case.


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## Bull Terrier (May 14, 2012)

DiggyV said:


> Sorry BRS will be able to monitor Glucose - didn't notice it was you BT.
> 
> Although the extra carbs will make you sweat, it is much better to do this then to go Hypo. You really feel [email protected], I would rather sweat all day than go hypo - I hate it. at 40g I would hypo every day, just no way I could run DNP like that. Seriously consider 50-100 mate - spread them out and you probably wont sweat that bad - particularly if you choose more complex carbs. Strangey Sweet potato gives you less sweats than potato as overall the carbs are harder for your body to release - brown rice, wholegrain breads - not because white bread is bad (dont get me started on the bullshit spread about how white carbs are bad for you :lol: ) - but because you will not get a big surge of sugars in the blood and will make the sweats easier, and you may not notice them.
> 
> And my advice to anyone taking DNP (and the nutters that use Insulin out of choice ) is to carry lucozade with you just in case.


Thanks for advice Diggy - I may well take you up on it. At the moment I seem to be doing more or less ok on very low carbs, but perhaps I'll try raising a bit. At the moment the carbs I get on a daily basis are pretty much the total of the trace carbs in all of the vegetables which I eat (and I eat damn loads of vegetables on a rotational basis to ensure correct intake of micronutrients) and the protein powder.

I can endure all kinds of hardship when I'm on diet, but the thing I miss most are proper dinners in the evening. And when I say dinner I love dinners which are made up of a protein source (ideally something nice like chilli con carne, curry, meat tagine, etc.) with a carb source like rice, cous cous etc. I really wouldn't mind increasing my carbs a bit so I can somehow incorporate a half-decent dinner (albeit with a reduced portion size!) into my diet plan.

Thanks again for your advice mate.


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## BigRedSwitch (Apr 12, 2013)

DiggyV - another question, if that's OK? Given that I'm gonna be like a furnace when this thing takes off, what amount of water should I be looking to consume? I'm currently drinking about 3 litres a day, but I assume it'll be considerably more than that?

I've done more and more reading about this, and it seems that there's little to fear as long as you don't abuse it.

Cheers buddy - and great advice so far! 

BRS.


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## DiggyV (May 6, 2011)

BigRedSwitch said:


> DiggyV - another question, if that's OK? Given that I'm gonna be like a furnace when this thing takes off, what amount of water should I be looking to consume? I'm currently drinking about 3 litres a day, but I assume it'll be considerably more than that?
> 
> I've done more and more reading about this, and it seems that there's little to fear as long as you don't abuse it.
> 
> ...


I typically drank 4-5 litres when on DNP mate, but pee colour is your best indicator, needs to be as light as possible. If it looks like apple juice (non-cloudy) then you need more fluids. If it looks like the cloudy variety - its got nothing to do with the DNP and you need help! :lol: just kidding.

DNP is fine as long as it is not abused.

It is like any other medical poison (and poison here means something whose effects keep increasing with dosage). Paracetamol for example; a small dose kills your headache, a large dose will kill your liver and then you. Digitalis: in tiny doses is a miracle heart drug, in big doses it stops your heart. Nitroglycerine; in small doses another miracle heart drug, in big amounts it blows buildings up. 

DNP is like this: a small controlled dose will burn fat like no other drug, a big dose and you will literally cook yourself alive. Massively raised temp, fits, seizures, death. One or two have been brought back from this stage with ice baths and ice enemas, but several have died from just taking more and more. about 18 months ago a young girl in Croydon died in the way I described from taking an increasing amount of DNP every day, not realising that it had a long half life and therefore builds up over time.

If you want to see the amount the build up os, PM me your email address and I'll send you over my Excel DNP calculation sheet - also includes approximate dose guidelines for all the supps you need as well. It is still work in progress and is likely to have a new release in the next month or so, but is a really useful tool now, and a lot of the guys on here use it.


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## Countryboy (May 26, 2012)

DiggyV, Reps.

Might I pester you for that excel sheet?

Im getting ready to order all the bits i need.


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## BigRedSwitch (Apr 12, 2013)

Hey, DiggyV

Unfortunately I'm so much of a n00b here that I have no idea how to send private messages - I'd love to see your excel sheet, though; can you send it through to me?

Cheers,

BRS.


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## DiggyV (May 6, 2011)

Guys email me at

diggyv66 At gmail DOT com


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## DiggyV (May 6, 2011)

Countryboy said:


> DiggyV, Reps.
> 
> Might I pester you for that excel sheet?
> 
> Im getting ready to order all the bits i need.


NO problem.

Basically you put the dose you are planning to take - it also deals with split dosing, and it shows you roughly what supps you need (as a guide) and also ho teh peak levels build up, and then once you stop how they taper off, so you know when you're clear.


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## carrock (Apr 23, 2013)

Just wondering how the dnp cycle is going. I am also a T1 diabetic and have just ordered some 125mg capsules of DNP and some T3. intending to take 125mg once a day in the morning.


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## BigRedSwitch (Apr 12, 2013)

Hey,

I've not started yet. There is a considerable amount of stuff required to start a DNP cycle, and as I could find practically *NO* information on the effect of DNP on Diabetics, I figured I'd better do it by the numbers.

I'm planning to start on Monday, and I'll do my best to log my experiences on here multiple times per day. I have to admit to being a bit nervous about this due to the lack of available information, but I figure that as I'm in pretty good shape anyway (the DNP is to lose maybe 7% bodyfat which is 'stubborn'), taking a *VERY* low dose (125mg) I should be fine.

For the record (and I'm hoping DiggyV is reading this to clarify it's a good idea), I'm planning on the following:

125mg of DNP

50mcg T3

3000mg Vit C

1200mg Alpha Lipoic Acid

800iu Vit E

2x Dioralyte sachets a day

As much water as I can drink. 

I'm also drinking a lot of Green Tea, and dependent on how I take to the DNP, I'm considering doing ECA too, purely to stop carb cravings.

I'm also on an Insulin Pump, so I'm planning to drop my dosing to 50% (and ride the possible high BGM) for about 8 hours after taking the initial dose to try to prevent hypos (which I think is the biggest danger for us T1's).

If I'm OK on the 125mg after a week, I'm going to try 250mg. If I'm feeling a bit lousy, I'm sticking to 125.

What limited intelligence I could get on the effect of DNP on T1's is that it's been considered as a *beneficial* medication - basically, it creates greater tollerence to carbs. I think that, even though this may be the case, the general opinion that the sides are too rough to make it something that is taken over an extended period.

As I've maintained a carb-restricted diet for nearly a year now (sticking mostly to protein), I'm hoping that it has relatively minimal effects on me at 125mg. If that is the case, I'll stay on it for a 30 day cycle, then have 5 weeks off and do it again until I reach my goals.


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## DiggyV (May 6, 2011)

Looks good buddy.

You probably wont need the T3 until Day 3 or 4, typically that's when I drop it in. You may want to increase your BG monitoring - although I guess you get a 'feel' for it anyway to a certain extent. I can empathise a tiny bit having had a couple of hypos - one took nearly 30 mins to get back from - even with lucozade and fruit juice - they are not ads deep as T1 hypos, but I know what it feels like as BG starts falling. I can catch it now 

On the Dioralyte - I ran 2 sachets a day on 250mg, as you dont sweat a lot on 125, you may only need 1. In fact if you get no cramps you may find dietary sodium & potassium will actually be enough.

Also if you want to grab a members attention put an @ infront of the name and you get a notification, you should have had one for @BigRedSwitch  However doesn't seem to work for names with spaces.


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## Countryboy (May 26, 2012)

Day 7 today for me,

Ive taken my vits and t3 daily, but only been having about 3 litres of water, a day, i might aswell be ****ing it back out. but no adverse affects the ocasional headache but its so mellow i forget its there till i shake my head..

Its easy enough to follow just wish i was having better visable results (scales/tape etc) so im tempted to jump up to 250mg from tomorrow in an attempted to increase the loss, but hey its getting hot out and i dont fancy burning up much! ive had one restless night so far and that took half an hour before i slept, and waking up abotu 6am each day for a **** gets annoying but ohwell its better than nothing.


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## defdaz (Nov 11, 2007)

I lose around 5 - 7 pounds every night whilst on dnp due to sweating / breathing / weeing. Drinking plenty of fluids is essential!

Diarrhoea... I can confirm that side lol! 

250mg is ok for me, I went up to 375mg for a couple of days and struggled...


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## golfgttdi (Oct 6, 2010)

@DiggyV what's the highest you've gone up to dosage wise with dnp?

And with the accumulating effect of it how long did you stay on the high dose?

I'm a week into 250mg dnp alongside 50mcg T3 and one ultra burn stack for energy and appetite suppression.

Appetite suppression being a deal killer here too by the way.

I can't face eating at all, even shakes make me feel sick to my stomach.

So while Initially I thought that was great I now realise my protein intake will be shockingly low and muscle catabolism is big fear now! So thinking I dropping out the ultra burn


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## G-man99 (Jul 15, 2008)

This is why I got the power stack ^^^

Also bought sibutramine seperatly but not used it.

I take one power stack upon waking with DNP and T3 then another early afternoon


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## BigRedSwitch (Apr 12, 2013)

Nice one, @DiggyV - this place uses some pretty cool forum software; I've never seen it before. 

To call the other n00b T1 back, hello @carrock! 

Just one last question - I've read it's possible to become 'tolerant' to DNP in various doses up to the possible max. That being the case, does anyone have any idea how long that would take? I'd be really keen to get up to 250mg, but due to the fact I work in an office with a lot of people, and I'm "the boss", I can't really be feeling terrible and sweating like a pig...

I want to see losses - at the moment, even on a carb restricted diet, I'm only losing around 1lb a week, so hoping DNP (even at a low dose) will see me shed significantly more than that...


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## Paz1982 (Dec 16, 2012)

DiggyV said:


> Guys email me at
> 
> diggyv66 At gmail DOT com


is there any chance I could have a look at that as well please mate ?


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## DiggyV (May 6, 2011)

Paz1982 said:


> is there any chance I could have a look at that as well please mate ?


no problem - just drop an email.


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## DiggyV (May 6, 2011)

BigRedSwitch said:


> Nice one, @DiggyV - this place uses some pretty cool forum software; I've never seen it before.
> 
> To call the other n00b T1 back, hello @carrock!
> 
> ...


no you dont become tolerant. People just take risks. DNP is a poison in the true sense of the word. The more you take the more potent it becomes - virtually without limit. Other things that fall into this category are Digitalis (small dose is a miracle heart drug - large dose kills you), Paracetamol (pain killer or person killer). So I know people that have taken very high doses - up to 1200mg, but this is up at the level where 50% of people taking this level will die. not good.

YOu wont become tolerant, you may be able to manage the symptoms better.

125mg will lose you maybe 4lb (or more) a week, 250 about 7-8 lb. Well in my experience anyway.

Might be best to run 125mg, as on 250 walking up a flight of stairs would soak my shirt.


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## DiggyV (May 6, 2011)

golfgttdi said:


> @DiggyV what's the highest you've gone up to dosage wise with dnp?
> 
> And with the accumulating effect of it how long did you stay on the high dose?
> 
> ...


I tried 500mg for 3 days - but was unmanageable for me - 250 is great for losses - it literally falls off me. 125 was also good for losses, and was no problem with sides. People noticed on 250, and on 500 I had to say I was ill, and the sweat was coming out like a fountain.

Get the protein in you, even if it has to be shakes, but you will need it.


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## Paz1982 (Dec 16, 2012)

DiggyV said:


> no problem - just drop an email.


yeah got it mate. have to say, to anyone thinking of running dnp its definitely worth taking a look at it. reps sent :thumbup1:


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## BigRedSwitch (Apr 12, 2013)

DiggyV said:


> no you dont become tolerant. People just take risks. DNP is a poison in the true sense of the word. The more you take the more potent it becomes - virtually without limit. Other things that fall into this category are Digitalis (small dose is a miracle heart drug - large dose kills you), Paracetamol (pain killer or person killer). So I know people that have taken very high doses - up to 1200mg, but this is up at the level where 50% of people taking this level will die. not good.
> 
> YOu wont become tolerant, you may be able to manage the symptoms better.
> 
> ...


Yup, fair enough. 125 is it, then. I don't like sweating, unless I'm at the gym, so if I'll light up at 250, I think I'll give it a miss.

The thing that interests me the most about DNP is the fact it ONLY burns fat - the other stuff is all catabolic, and that's the last thing I want! I'm not going for massive muscles (after a 'Super Hero' physique), so as long as I can hang onto what I've built already, but manage to expose it properly, I'll be all good.

The big day tomorrow - excited and nervous in equal measure! Just hope there's not some weird diabetic 'clause' which means it won't work or something...!


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## Countryboy (May 26, 2012)

Reckon you'll be fine,

My first night consisted of the "i hope i'll wake up in the morning" type thoughts. same as i get after ive done anything remotely dodgy/stupid.

But apart from that i see no reason for it to go wrong, its as easy as dropping paracetamol. build up the interal dose the first few days and dont just go " oh its not dropped off yet" Ive literally just noticed my tricep is now sticking out, i cant tell if its because all my gym work on the one day i get atm is purely arm work or the DNP but somethings happening and its good


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