# my diet - not gaining weight!!



## airforce1

Hi all, first post so go easy on me 

6.30am - bowl of bran flakes with milk. maxi cyclone with bcaa's

8.30am - oat cereal bar

9.30am - tuna sandwich and apple

12.30pm - tuna sandwich and banana

3.30pm - myprotein meal replacement shake

5.45pm - bcaa's with water

6pm - gym(strictly weights)

7pm - cyclone with bcaa's

7.30pm - meat(chicken/steak/fish) with rice and veg

9.30pm - myprotein meal replacement shake

get just under 8 hours sleep in the week.

training for about 50mins 4 or 5 times a week. usually....

mon - back n shoulders

tues - arms

wed - rest

thurs - chest n tris

fri - back n shoulders

sat or sun - legs

im only 5ft 8, 8stone 10lbs, very lean though.

any recommendations on my diet and training programme?(just rearrange what should be done on the days, i enjoy researching exercises!)

thanks all!!


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## ParaManiac

Not a good training routine for gaining weight - cramming too much into 7 days so not enough recovery time.Diet needs tweaking - esp brekky,have oats and eggs/protein powder(lose the cereal bar)

day 1 - chest/shoulders

day 2 - rest

day 3 - legs

day 4 - rest

day 5 - back/biceps

day 6 and 7 - rest

day 8 - repeat

Up the complex carbs and add healthy fats to gain weight and do yourself,and your pocket,a favour,and replace the maximuscle products.


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## airforce1

tell me about with the maximuscle products!! was just recommended by a friend who said theres not really a all in one replacement apart from myprotein hurricane....but i was just picky and didnt like the flavours on there!!!

is there not sufficient protein in cyclone for the morning?

thanks for the training plan, i did suggest doing 3 times a week but i got told to hit it hard as much as poss thats why ive been goin so much. am i burning off extra calories im eating by going too much??

also how can i up my complex carbs? i have brown bread with my sandwiches. wat other stuff could i take to work? i find im eating pretty much all the time when there. maybe just more rice/pasta with my dinner???

thanks again


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## ah24

Woah 10meals!

I used to have around 7-8, now im tying this new 'bolus dosing'. Iv'e cut down to like 5 meals a day, the theory behind it is that by keeping these meals going in every 2-3 hours the body becomes un-responsive to protein synthesis due to constant high level of amino acids.

Where as having slightly larger meals 3.5+ hours a part but supplementing with branch chained amino acids, should help spike the protein synthesis.

Nothings proven, but its just a theory at the moment, im trying it and it seems to be working fine!


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## ParaManiac

Wholegrain rice/pasta,sweet potatoes,oats,wholemeal bread(not just brown) or better still wholemeal pitta.

Try"Extreme build and recover" instead of Cyclone.


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## airforce1

yea i meant wholemeal when i said brown sorry pal. with the supplements am i just looking for whey protein to have in the morning and post workout?

also with the training plan u suggested....would that be 3 exercises per muscle group?


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## ah24

airforce1 said:


> yea i meant wholemeal when i said brown sorry pal. with the supplements am i just looking for whey protein to have in the morning and post workout?
> 
> also with the training plan u suggested....would that be 3 exercises per muscle group?


As far as supplements are concerned id recommend whey protein, creatine mono and a good multi-vit. Don't need anything flash so long as your diets good.

I think i can speak for para in that the 3 exercises would depend on the bodypart - smaller bodyparts like biceps and triceps may need less, bigger mucle groups like the legs would need more. Depends what training style your going for though.


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## ParaManiac

As above,you have to find a routine that works for you.So to just specify a number of exercises per muscle group would be bad advice as what works for me will not necessarilly work for you.

Stick to compound movements(bench press,squat,BB rowing,BB shoulder press etc.)for maximum growth.

Whey protein is more suited to Pwo.A blended protein at other times.


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## airforce1

yea i do tend to do compound movements with a few exceptions for extra exercises for bis n tris...

sorry to be a pain any chance u cud quickly draft me out a training plan or point me in the direction of any gd links. lookin to bulk up obv...


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## ParaManiac

Search "how to grow" by Big.


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## airforce1

cheers pal, just gave that a read. im not convinced tho... 2 intense workouts per week? surely that wont work.


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## DaPs

You really need to eat more anyway, you are well underweight.


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## ah24

DaPs said:


> You really need to eat more anyway, you are well underweight.


Sorry, but shut up mate. What great results have you got?

From the look of his diet there, aslong as the portion sizes are of a decent size he will grow - aslong as he's being 100% honest and gives it time.

Daps, its not just a case of 'oh im underweight i must go eat sh1t loads'...he needs to get his maintenance cals worked out and then his macronutrient ratio's.

If you have any more advice why not back it up and tell him what he needs instead of just saying he's underweight and needs to eat more?


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## toxictoffee

lol at this thread

simpe enough...

eat in a surplus = growth

eat in a deficit = get smaller


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## ah24

toxictoffee said:


> lol at this thread
> 
> simpe enough...
> 
> eat in a surplus = growth
> 
> eat in a deficit = get smaller


Not quite. If it was that simple everyone would look great.

If you just said that to someone who doesnt know what they're doing, how would they know where abouts a surplus and defecit was?

Or meal timings? Amount of meals? Macro ratios?

Even if you were to tell someone how many cals they should have, they can still fill up with empty cals or trans fats. Same applies with slimming down, why do you think most people do it unsuccessfully?

Nutrition is not something i would call simple.


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## Jimmy1

DaPs said:


> You really need to eat more anyway, you are well underweight.


jeez buddy, have you seen how much he eats?

maybe re read the top post


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## ParaManiac

toxictoffee said:


> lol at this thread
> 
> simpe enough...
> 
> eat in a surplus = growth
> 
> eat in a deficit = get smaller


I am in agreement with ah24.

Toxic,the lad is brand new and is asking sensible questions which i think deserve a polite and informed response.

If you would rather not supply him with any of your obviously superior knowledge then do us all a favour and keep your arrogance to yourself.


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## toxictoffee

lol again

ok

what is the second law of thermodynamics?

google that

then you can argue body composition Vs weight gain but at the end of the day you cannot cheat the laws of thermodynamics

everybody can gain weight, no ifs, no buts unless you happen to fall into the bracket of the 0.0000001% who have thyroid issues

as for what toeat and when? you can then look at the work of will brink and the universal theory he pus forward

weight gain is about calories, body compsotion is about nutrient timing, partinioning and windows of opportunity

empty calories? empty calories are great for bulking, in fact often beter for hard gainers as the satiety is low and the consumption is easy. this goes with fats too, the satiety of n3 fats is higher than that of monos such as oleic. this of course allows for additional consumption of calories whilst obviating the notion of 'not being able to eat enough'

*ah24*

bullsh1t baffles brains mate

people who cannot put weight on can, they are just yet to realise whqat it takes...now tell me how you cheat the laws of thermodynamics

*paramaniac*

thanks for your 2p mate, again this is a discussion board, therefore i discuss and there has been some suboptimal advice here. now if you want to debate on a level about nutrition, i am happy to do that, if you want to throw insults around i dont get involved

so you explain to me how increasing calories beyond TDEE stops you gaining weight?

ah24



> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Woah 10meals!
> 
> I used to have around 7-8, now im tying this new 'bolus dosing'. Iv'e cut down to like 5 meals a day, the theory behind it is that by keeping these meals going in every 2-3 hours the body becomes un-responsive to protein synthesis due to constant high level of amino acids.
> 
> Where as having slightly larger meals 3.5+ hours a part but supplementing with branch chained amino acids, should help spike the protein synthesis.
> 
> Nothings proven, but its just a theory at the moment, im trying it and it seems to be working fine!


even though post pranidal hyperaminoacidemia will drop below original levels within 1hour when using some protein sources, thus hindering the anabolic cycle and positive nitrogen balance? and of course, eating = insulin

insulin = most anabolic hormone known to man

eating 5 times a day and trying to consume 5000 calories ED will often lead to the ineffective utilisation of large oamounts of protein to follow the carb or fat pathway once the needs of the amino pool are met

paramaniac

where have i been arrogant?

i am simply lol'ing at some of the responses

so are we going back to debating this issue or are we posting insults? if so i will leave you to it mate


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## Bulldozer

Making more friends i see...... :rolleye11:rolleye11


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## toxictoffee

if i wanted to make friends i would join www.friendfinder.com

if i wanted to discuss BBing and throw my 2p i would join a BBing forum

fortunately i dont seek social acceptance, i do though believe if something is suboptimal i will state why reagardless of the consequences

do you have anything to add to the topic BTW?


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## Bulldozer

Yes actually i do!!!

http://www.counselling-for-men.co.uk/flashpage.html

Maybe you should join the above and they can teach you some mannors and how to interact with other humans beings


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## toxictoffee

doesnt interest me mate

as stated im here to talk BBing/training/nutrition not have buddy buddy chat

so, back on topic

anyt thoughts on the above?


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## ah24

Wow someone spent a while posting that. I must say you seem knowledgable, but instead of "lol-ing" at things why not demonstrate the knowledge and put your ideas across? Debates and different ideas are *good* there really arent many 'right' answers in this, its all theories. To you nutrition maybe simple, to others it is *not*, 'no if's no buts'

As for the meal timings, yes of course 5 meals would be too little for 5000 cals! Thats a no-brainer, 1000cals every meal a lil difficult. If you read his weight you'd see 5 meals going by the bolus dosing i mentioned could easily be done.

About your problems with it, your not coming out of hyperaminoacidemia by adding the free form branch chained amino's.

I havent said he should do this, iv'e mentioned that im doing it - and getting results. If your keeping amino acids elevated at a plateu constantly your body will become refractory and insensitive to it, towards protein synthesis, thats why i let the amino's 'drop off'.

It hasnt been proven for sure yet but there's studies being carried out on it at the moment, i know about it as iv'e been talking to someone who's carrying out the research. All the time i find its working for me i'll continue to use it and refer it to others, especially those who struggle to cram all their meals in.

Again, i look forward to your response as im open minded - also, one thing i make a point of not doing is advise people whether they should/shouldn't do something without having tried it first - i think your statements would be more valid if you could back them up with the fact that you've used them, not just referred to science.


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## DaPs

Yeah i knew the comment was abit childish when i posted it, but i have to put my little bit of nastiness in now and again, otherwise i'll be too nice


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## toxictoffee

> About your problems with it, your not coming out of hyperaminoacidemia by adding the free form branch chained amino's.


can you exapnd on that please


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## ah24

I'll admit im no expert with the science behind it, always looking to learn.

You said hyperaminoacidemia will drop from different protein sources, that may be...but what thats got to do with the bolus dosing i dont know, and the added BCAA's would keep that from dropping.

Thats my theory anyway - feel free to correct me. But can you expand on it and go into a lil detail.


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## toxictoffee

ok

depedning on the state of the body and the type of protein its easy for the body to have low blood amino content

prime example, whey only after training

1 hour later the levels are at 90% of what they were before

this leaves you catabolic

so, eating more frequently or combining proteins would obviate this

simply using BCAAs is not required, jig your meals to allow for a steady flow of aminos, not just BCAAs


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## airforce1

jeeez, wat a drama this has caused.

@ DaPs - thanks for calling me malnutritioned but if thats u in ur avatar, im def bigger and better looking than you(in both ways). if you're gunna make stupid comments im simply not interested.

sorry if ive asked a simple question but i really am stuck and dont wanna try bulking unless its a clean diet!! especially as im working and sometimes have to be out on site its hard to eat whats needed. maybe i should chuck in some more tuna sandwiches in there.

anybody got more help on training programme?


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## ah24

toxictoffee said:


> ok
> 
> depedning on the state of the body and the type of protein its easy for the body to have low blood amino content
> 
> prime example, whey only after training
> 
> 1 hour later the levels are at 90% of what they were before
> 
> this leaves you catabolic
> 
> so, eating more frequently or combining proteins would obviate this
> 
> simply using BCAAs is not required, jig your meals to allow for a steady flow of aminos, not just BCAAs


Ok i disagree with most of this. Sorry dude, but the guy i go to for questions and who has helped me is a natural pro, he has a degree with honours in skeletal protein metabolism and is doing his PhD in amino acid science.

If you want the link to his website, some of his articles, a video series etc just ask.

I read in a thread that you have show pics on MT, can you PM me the link to em mate? Also, have you achieved anything in BBing or have any other qualifications higher than a personal training cert?

none of thats a dig, its just the dude i speak with, firstly his record says it all but he also breaks things down and explains exactly how it works.


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## ah24

airforce1 said:


> jeeez, wat a drama this has caused.
> 
> @ DaPs - thanks for calling me malnutritioned but if thats u in ur avatar, im def bigger and better looking than you(in both ways). if you're gunna make stupid comments im simply not interested.
> 
> sorry if ive asked a simple question but i really am stuck and dont wanna try bulking unless its a clean diet!! especially as im working and sometimes have to be out on site its hard to eat whats needed. maybe i should chuck in some more tuna sandwiches in there.
> 
> anybody got more help on training programme?


In order to stay lean i bulk for 6-8 weeks then cut for 2-3, the gains come fairly slowly due to the cutting, but if your macro's are worked out you will grow and its worth it with staying lean!


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## thestudbeast

> Ok i disagree with most of this. Sorry dude, but the guy i go to for questions and who has helped me is a natural pro, he has a degree with honours in skeletal protein metabolism and is doing his PhD in amino acid science


they do love Layne Norton on the american boards


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## toxictoffee

ah24 said:


> Ok i disagree with most of this. Sorry dude, but the guy i go to for questions and who has helped me is a natural pro, he has a degree with honours in skeletal protein metabolism and is doing his PhD in amino acid science.
> 
> If you want the link to his website, some of his articles, a video series etc just ask.
> 
> I read in a thread that you have show pics on MT, can you PM me the link to em mate? Also, have you achieved anything in BBing or have any other qualifications higher than a personal training cert?
> 
> none of thats a dig, its just the dude i speak with, firstly his record says it all but he also breaks things down and explains exactly how it works.


dear oh dear

well, the data comes from john berardi and studies he has carried out, so again who do you believe

as for me and what i do? your taking the p1ss right? you are questioning someone based on what they have done on stage...

well in short i stepped on stage 2 and a half years after being a 9 stone bulimic at just under 14 stone and about5-6% body fat not that im sure that has anything to do with hyperaminoacidemia? or does it

so, yes im qualified as a personal trainer, yes i have stepped on stage but what the monkeys **** has that got to do with anything?

i can find 10 people i know of who have done neither who are far more clued up than 90% of the gurus out there

so, explain why you do not agree with the theory

now, if you are suggesting its layne norton, IIRC he is stating that the threshold for AA intake per meal is far lower than we belive, which of course would mean your 5 meals a day theory would go out the window would it? or would it not?

and if you want to question me based on what i have done? i do hope that is not your arm in your avatar as if so i cannot believe anybody would take you seriously...not that thats a 'dig' as you put it


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## big

toxictoffee,

Clearly you are an intelligent guy, and you make some interesting posts. However, this is the 2nd time now I've seen you rip on a guys avatar pic (albeit in a round-about way). Please don't do that - it's not the sort of post we want to see on this board. I hope I don't have to see a 3rd fruitless diss of someone's physique from you.

Aside from that, I like reading your posts, but why be so cutting/harsh in them?

And for what it's worth, I actually think ah24's arm looks pretty good in his avatar - particularly as he's only 17 (IIRC).


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## ah24

TT you do make me laugh. As i said i dont mean it offensively, i was interested as to whether you have any higher qualifications etc or just a keyboard warrior - after seeing this AND the 46,000 posts of sh1t at MT and no pics - i think its fair to say that you sit here all day reading an article, and once its read thats it, no room for any other opinions on that subject.

The thing that really makes me laugh is that iv'e never once said its correct or the guy should do it, theres just research backing it, and iv'e had results off it - as has Layne.

As far as the avatar, at least i have one up, and as Big said - im 17 and only been back training properly around 2 and a half months after a motorbike bike crash - no matter what you say, i think for my age im on target for where i want to be.


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## toxictoffee

big

hang on one moment

read this mate



> I read in a thread that you have show pics on MT, can you PM me the link to em mate? Also, have you achieved anything in BBing or have any other qualifications higher than a personal training cert?


you seem to have missed that

ah24

46000 posts of sh1t?

probably 40'000 of ****, as i dont take internet boards seriously

6000 of information you are yet to learn mate, do you want some articles i have written, i will allow you to google the words in them or email layne but TBH if you are calling my work sh1t, you need to wake up mate, 17 or not

so, if you want articles, here is one below, if you want pics, feel free to search my show pictures...

*RO-CHO by TT*

What is RO-CHO? It's basically me being lazy and not bothering to write 'Rotational Carbohydrates'. The theory of Rotational carbohydrates is another term for the more commonly known dietary approach of carb cycling or carbohydrate (CHO) cycling to be precise. I just love shortening names and writing in acronyms. RO-CHO was born off the back of researching cyclical diets and implementing them in a practical manner. The protocol outlined below is not revolutionary by any means, its simply jigged in relation to specific training and foods found in the UK rather than telling you to have 2 oz of grits for freshman and 3 Oreos for jocks. I think you know where I'm going don't you? Most carb cycling information is based on foods typically consumed in the US. Here is the Brit version and a clean one at that even if I the author is a little foul mouthed from time to time. So before I get a bashing off our friends over the pond I will hop back onto the straight and narrow and throw some science your way (punctuated by layman's terms of course)

What is carb cycling and why do we use it?

Carb cycling is basic enough to explain. The daily intake of CHO is varied from day to day in a cyclical manner to give high, low and no CHO days instead of having a static daily intake over the week.

If you were to say "I eat 300g of CHO every day" that would be a static intake. With RO-CHO you may well eat 300g one day, in fact two days, 150g for 3 days and near no carbs on the remaining 2 days of the calendar week. This gives us the structure of high, low and no CHO days. Cycling carbs is beneficial for those dieting down offering both anabolic and catabolic environments. This is not a license to cut and bulk in one per se but simply means the body is more efficient at burning fat for periods whilst other periods its more efficient aiding repair, recovery and dare I say it growth which leads to strength and hypertrophy (depending on training goals), whilst maintaining a negative energy balance. Low glycogen stores are one of the limiting factors to performance, muscle growth and recovery

Disclaimer - Please at this point don't reach for your existing diet and tear it up in a vain attempt to become Mr. huge and ripped in one. CHO cycling, in this context, is the same as any other hypocaloric diet. You cannot cheat the laws of thermodynamics and have to be in a calorie deficit to lose weight. Put out more than you put in. This of course doesn't allow for optimum muscle building and any 'gains' are to be seen as a bonus during the dieting down phase. Gains are more likely though than a chronically low intake of CHO as of course carbs are essential for building as much mass as possible. They are known as protein sparing nutrients; they aid protein synthesis and provide adequate energy for anaerobic weight training. Carbohydrates elicit and insulin response. By nature insulin is anabolic and the synergistic effect of CHO and protein will result in better synthesis rates. Insulin is of course an anabolic hormone whilst glucagon is a catabolic hormone. This will become clearer in the 'micro cycles' created on RO-CHO. Days of higher insulin levels accompanied by days when glucagons is the protagonist.

RO-CHO part 2 (when I get round to it or when the latest series of Richard and Judy is over) will be adding LBM (lean body mass) whilst on a cyclical carb diet

For now though lets concentrate on cutting as summer is coming and the beach needs you

*science on/listener off* time

The body is a very clever machine and will try and second guess its owner in an effort to maintain homeostasis in relation to its environment. RO-CHO will out fox the body by pulling it away from a 'low calorie and carbohydrate environment' and will avoid re setting its point of homeostasis to a lower metabolic output by having a rotational calorie and carbohydrate intake over the week. It's important to ensure the body knows it's going to be fed, not exposed to starvation and in response it will allow for fatty acid metabolism as it doesn't see hard times ahead. This is where the high CHO days kick in. Again this differs from the cyclical ketogenic diet (CKD) as the calorie intake is substantially increased by implementing a high fat intake on the low carb days. This is not the scenario with RO-CHO. Fats are included but they are not significantly increased to avoid metabolic slowdown. The cyclical nature of the higher calorie and CHO days will eliminate the issue of metabolic slowdown and ensure the body starvation is not on the horizon

If CHO are eliminated from the diet and low calories are maintained on a flat weekly rate, Leptin, (a recently discovered hormone) levels will stay low. ) Leptin was discovered as recently as 1994 in fact by a guy called Jeffrey Friedman for those sad bastards who love winning pub quizzes when they should be training, sleeping or eating.

Leptin is a regulatory hormone and when levels are low will drag your metabolic rate down, increase catabolic activity and slow thyroid output. This is basically your body saying "I am going into hibernation" in response to a hypocaloric diet where is sees famine ahead.

This is a re adjustment period and as a result weight loss (muscle), performance, energy, libido and many other key players take a nose dive. See Leptin as a balancing hormone and a 'friend to take you away from starvation' (sigh at the over dramatic bull ****)

Carbs are key to muscle building and are responsible for increased protein synthesis over protein only meals as numerous studies have shown. Take CHO out of the diet and anabolism is significantly hindered as a result. Rarely is significant lean tissue built in an environment devoid of insulin. The issues stated previously are common with the habitual dieter using diets low on CHO and calories and in the main those who do not alter their calorie and carbohydrate intake for the week. Carbs are the new fat. Dietary fat was public enemy number one in the 80s and carbs have taken over the baton for the 21st century

SKD (standard ketogenic diets) therefore are not suitable for the active trainer looking to hold onto LBM (lean body mass) whilst stripping fat. This diet is devoid of CHO on muscle glycogen levels are permenantly low, insulin levels are low and as a result anabolism is minimal in anyone but the deconditioned trainer

SKD = Sedentary Kids Diet

RO-CHO = I can't think of an acronym but just make it something to do with lots of muscle, not a lot of fat, enjoyment and training. Anyone who can email me a good acronym can have a prize. Fcuk knows what but I shall find something

Ok back on track, class returns after lunch break

The high carb days on RO-CHO will kick Leptin levels back up and stop the body 'hibernating' before again forcing the body to 'endure' days of low to no CHO which are of course noted for increased fat oxidation due to decreased insulin levels and increased catecholamines. So some days are similar to SKD but alters to suit training requirements on other days and will rarely induce as state of ketosis. The periods of anabolism and catabolism again are in action (catabolism referring to the break down of fatty acids over muscle) giving us micro cycles where in effect the body is cutting and bulking at different times of the week

RO - CHO leaves our inactive days low on carbs (mainly from fibrous veg if they do occur) and our training days medium to higher to enable efficient work outs (as we know resistance training in the main prefers CHO over fat) and glycogen levels will be loaded ready to train as a result of the high carb days yet your overall weekly intake is hypocaloric thus meaning we are in a deficit and losing body fat.

Before I babble some more, it's important to note this is not by nature a ketogenic diet. It differs significantly from a CKD (cyclic ketogenic diet) and is also not incredibly high in fat. Whilst periods of the week will be spent with low muscle and liver glycogen depletion will rarely occur and the body will not be forced into ketosis. This is why we don't have two 'no carb' days back to back. Sub 30g of CHO for 2 days may take some people into ketosis after glycogen depleting training on previous days. This is not the aim of RO-CHO and whilst mild ketosis may occur at points on the diet, it's certainly not something to aspire to.

Protein and fat intake stay generally constant through the week and the dieter is urged to work out their intake from a very basic method. It's against my nature to suggest the use of the Harris Benedict method of calorie intake based on weight, height and even lean body mass, but for simplicity I am going to outline a rough protocol for your intake of fat and protein. The intake for protein will be a baseline of 1.5g per lb of bodyweight. This may go up to 1.75g for many people in the framework of this diet alone and does somewhat exclude the chronically obese. Then again anyone with a massively high body fat does nee to get technical beyond a calorie deficit when trying to shed weight. RO-CHO is for the more seasoned trainer and dieter who is looking to pull the stubborn body fat off and get into single digits, often in an attempt to achieve competition shape. As a 'one size fits' all ratio take 1.5g to be your static daily protein intake regardless of CHO or fat consumption. This happens day in day out. Do not lose sight of this

So, there we have it protein intake for a 200lb guy would be baseline 300g (on the 1.5g per lb method) every day regardless of CHO intake. That isn't rocket science is it?

One point I cannot stress enough is that although bodyweight gives a rough idea of requirements you must ensure WEE (weekly energy expenditure) is higher than calorie intake for the week. This again goes back to the laws of thermodynamics. Do not solely base you grams on the figures above if you know it goes beyond your maintenance calories. If you are putting in more than your putting out you will not cut. Your body composition may get better but you will not strip existing body fat in an efficient manner.

For ease of use I am going to suggest most people consume around 40-50g of fat ED (every day) this level can alter slightly for the heavier trainer as not to create such a big deficit on low CHO days but in the main fat is kept low and generally of a high quality. Dietary fats from animal and dairy products are fine but in the main essential and healthy fats from the poly and monounsaturated families will make up the bulk of your intake. Fats are not created equally; they are productive for health and will offer many benefits such as hormonal function and increased insulin sensitivity. Simply chugging down lard and saturated fat all day can stay with Dr Atkins. More and more research on omega fats show their role not only for optimum health but for bodybuilders and weight trainers too.

Fish oil, flax oil, mixed seeds and nuts, olive oil and avocados are prime examples of the foods you should be consuming on RO-CHO to get your fat intake around that 40-50g ED mark. This intake should be spread across the 6 proposed meals and generally be of an equal serving. A small amount of saturated fat is though good for testosterone production so don't go throwing the cow out just yet.

By now your probably bored ****less and wondering when you get to trash the cookie jar or hit the ice cream parlor for 6. Sorry boys and girls that isn't going to happen. With the CKD and supercompensation, the initial phases of the re feed allow for ****ty carbs and sugars, RO-CHO doesn't though. All the 'usual suspects' staple BBing foods make the back bone for the diet and the quality will reflect in the results. Crap carbs = crap results

The main carb rich foods to be employed are oats, wholegrain and wholemeal breads, pasta and rice. Sweet potatoes, yams and all the usual quality starchy carbs. The intake of nutrient rich fibrous veg is a given regardless of the day. Low CHO days rely on the intake for satiety and functioning. Spices and calorie sp**** flavoring or dressing can be used on all days.

At this point the reader will be quickly scanning through the 'science' to find out just how much of his stodgy CHO infested food they can eat in the high days and how many high days there are in a week. Fair point as I have not allowed the ice cream and cookies.

Should I tell you or be a bastard and babble on for another few paragraphs on the role of nutrients in the calorie deficit diet?

Ah fcuk it, that's not fair. Here are the rules for all the carb monsters. High days equal 2 a week, so two treat days which is better than one and they are accompanied by 3 low days and 2 no CHO days. Before you sink back in your chair at the thought of 2 no CHO days I shall point out that the two high days allow for around 1.5g to 1.75g per lb of bodyweight for carbs in that specific day. These high days will be your big body part training days and the protocol for intake, training and supplementation will be outlined below. When starting the diet start on the lower end of the CHO intake and monitor results recording changes in energy levels and performance.

The low CHO days will be given a carb limit of around 0.75-1g per lb of bodyweight whilst the no CHO days are simply that. Make no effort to consume carbs rich food and simply source any carbs from fibrous veg and the very small amounts that occur in products such as whey protein.

These figures are to be monitored and adjusted in relation to body fat reduction, weight loss, changes in stats and energy levels.

You want a summary of all those numbers now don't you?

Here goes

Protein = 1.5g per lb of bodyweight every day regardless of CHO intake

Fat = 40-50g rough intake as a static daily figure, day in day out

Carbs = 1.5-1.75g per lb on high days, around 0.75-1g per lb on low days and no CHO on no CHO days (if you hadn't guessed that)

So for our 200lb man, what does this look like?

High CHO days

Protein = 300g and 1200 calories (4 calories per gram)

Carbs = 300g and 1200 calories (4 calories per gram)

Fat = 50g and 450 calories (9 calories per gram)

Total intake = 2850

Low CHO days

Protein = 300g and 1200 calories

Carbs = 150g and 600 calories

Fat = 50g and 450 calories

Total intake = 2250

No CHO days

Protein = 300g and 1200 calories

Carbs = N/A

Fat = 50g and 450 calories

Total intake = 1650 (a little more for additional CHO from fibrous veg, whey etc)

These numbers, and we know how much bodybuilders and dieter love numbers, are then put into the following days. 2 high, 3 low and 2 no CHO days in the week, structured in a cyclical manner and not blocked together

As a TWI (total weekly intake) that equates to 15750 calories which in turn breaks down to an average of 2250 calories ED (every day)

Assuming the 200lb gent has a maintenance of 3000 calories ED this then put us in a negative figure of 750 calories for the day, 5250 calories for a week and in terms of weight loss 1.5lbs

So average Joe at 200lb has an intake of around 11 x his body weight. Cutting figures are generally based around 10-12 whilst maintenance comes at around 14-15. For ease of use, these fit in nicely with the suggestions made. As much as I hate ratios based on bodyweight alone, why the heck not add one to make things that little bit simpler for you.

Fantastic!

Yes, in theory it is&#8230;&#8230;.. but this is the part where science takes a backseat and logic prevails. Do not simply take these figures as gospel as the 200lb builder who works 10 hours a day does not have the same requirements and output as the sedentary office worker. Use your brain, bend the rules where needs be. I know I get the **** taken out of me for saying it but

"Eat, monitor and adjust accordingly"

The notion of RO-CHO almost rewards the binge/abstinence model of going a few days of being good and then having a splurge on you favorite stodgy carb meals. Strange but very effective (so effective maybe its better keeping it away from the mainstream jaffa cake eating, Cadburys roses munching masses) it would be the Atkins all over again but this time with all out binges to suit. As stated before the law of thermodynamics cannot be cheated. You simply have to be in a negative energy balance to succeed try and bend the rules and you generally fail.

Anyway&#8230;.moving on from my amateur government health warning. In short RO-CHO could enable those with weaker will powers to diet down a little easier than a fixed or low calorie diet.

Ok, you are now asking how to put these days together and where training falls I feel. In short I have about 10 different protocols I could put in place in terms of splits, full bodies, HIIT (high intensity interval training) and SS (steady state) cardio.

Some examples are outlined below:

Here goes

Monday -high carbs

Tuesday - low carbs

Wednesday - no carbs

Thursday - high carbs

Friday - low carbs

Saturday - no carbs

Sunday - low carbs

The plan above of course can be changed to allow for weekend high CHO days. I'm not a complete bastard in that sense and you can play with the scheme for hours. What I have documented above is simply one protocol, one school of thought. Just remember what I said before! No double no CHO days back to back. On a side note. If you are going to play around with the plan, don't create a shoddy mutation of the original model.

Shall I add training in now?

Yes, why on earth not

Monday - high carbs - chest and shoulders

Tuesday - low carbs - back and traps

Wednesday - no carbs

Thursday - high carbs - leg work

Friday - low carbs - direct arm work

Saturday - no carbs

Sunday low carbs

There we have it, a 4 day split which again can be altered to suit and corresponds to the high low and no CHO days.

Want cardio now too?

Monday - high carbs - chest and shoulders

Tuesday - low carbs - back and traps

Wednesday - no carbs - CARDIO (SS steady state)

Thursday - high carbs - leg work

Friday - low carbs - direct arm work

Saturday - no carbs - CARDIO

Sunday - low carbs - CARDIO and or HIIT (with HIIT use pre and PWO CHO)

3 cardio sessions a week baseline, on empty before breakfast, for 45 minutes at a very steady pace. This will then be followed by a protein rich meal. Additional SS cardio can be tagged onto the end of weight training sessions (ideally on the low days) and also in the morning before weight training (high days preferential here). Implement this to suit energy levels and fluctuations in weight and body fat levels. So cardio vascular work is not restricted although appreciate your work load in relation to calorie consumption and general output

Ok, let's go back to the weight training. I know what you are thinking! Why low carbs on back day when potentially I have to do deadlifts, chins and heavy rowing?

Simple enough, there are only a certain amount of high CHO days we can have to keep in a negative energy balance and the previous days feed along with targeting the CHO on the low days allows for adequate training intensity and recovery. Some people actually train better the day after a high CHO day due to glycogen levels being higher and not depleted even after the strenuous training day previously. Does this mean you can play about with the arms and legs protocol on the diet above?

I think the point I am making throughout this article is that there are so many ways to play with the whole CHO cycling that as long as you stay within the rules you can have a bit of fun and tinker to suit.

My basic rules:

Has to be hypocaloric

Has to have at least 1 high CHO day

No double 'No CHO days' back to back

Same with 'high CHO days'

Fibrous veg is used period

Not all calories are created equally, fat is not fat and protein is not 'just' protein

Remember, this is a cutting phase so the scenario of 'keep muscle' over a 'build silly amounts of new lean tissue' phase. Bulking is down the line. Still train like you want to gain muscle but appreciate the issues associated with being in a negative energy balance. Pre and PWO CHO should suffice in terms of energy and protein synthesis/recovery on these low days.

Can I train differently?

Of course, how about this?

Monday - high carbs - Full body weights

Tuesday - low carbs - HIIT

Wednesday - no carbs - CARDIO

Thursday - high carbs - Full Body weights

Friday - low carbs - HIIT

Saturday - no carbs - CARDIO

Sunday - low carbs - CARDIO and or HIIT

What about?

Monday - high carbs - Upper strength weight training

Tuesday - low carbs - lower hypertrophy work

Wednesday - no carbs - CARDIO

Thursday - high carbs - Lower power/strength work

Friday - low carbs - Upper hypertrophy specific work

Saturday - no carbs - CARDIO

Sunday - low carbs - CARDIO and or HIIT

But you want hi carbs Saturday as you have family commitments?

Monday - no carbs - CARDIO

Tuesday - low - CARDIO

Wednesday - high carbs - Upper Strength training

Thursday - low carbs - Lower Volume/hypertrophy training

Friday - no carbs - CARDIO

Saturday - high carbs - Lower Strength training

Sunday - low carbs - Upper Volume/hypertrophy training

But you want the day off from training and gorge on carb stodgy ****ty foods with the Mrs.? No, sorry that doesn't work here, maybe look at a CKD where you can use that method. I have bent the rules and spoon fed you enough as it is

High carb days in this framework correspond to hard training days

My personal favourite approach?

High

Low

No

High

Low

No

High

Low

No

On a non calendar day basis so in effect it's a constant cycle and I like to do a revolving split to suit that. Again a little beyond the scope of the article as that is person specific and a little away from the cookie cutter nature of this piece. So for me Monday could be a high day one week and not the following week and so on. See I don't have nagging kids who don't want a grumpy bastard 'carb less' dad on the weekends so I get to play with things a little. That's another point I wish to get across. Never let dieting rule your life. Very few are preparing for contests. All others should not make significant sacrifices simply to achieve low body fat. Family, work and study always come first

Ok, enough soppy stuff, back to macronutrient ratios and so on

How do I structure my carbs on the days?

Again, there are many ways to skin a cat but I will start with the no CHO days as they are a piece of ****. (Well they are to construct anyway, not as easy to execute for many people)

Simple, no carbs, next

Low CHO days whilst training. My suggestion would be on an intake of 150g would be 3 of your 6 meals containing 50g of CHO. These are breakfast pre and PWO. Some may even them out to 'keep blood sugar' stable but to be honest I would use them for breakfast after cardio, pre and PWO and leave it at that.

6 meals make for the whole diet, no more, no less and this will include PWO too if the day happens to be one of the weight training days listed above. The CHO intake on the high days will be generally limited to 4 meals in the main although some may opt to spread them out over the six. The fundamental aspects are adequate pre and PWO nutrition, quality food sources and the correct amount of grams to support anabolism.

Whilst cutting is not a time to focus on hypertrophy, hyperplasia or excessive strength games the trainer must appreciate the intensity of their training cannot significantly suffer as a result of being hypocaloric.

Now! What does a sample day look like in terms of food intake?

This part is very specific to the person but below I have detailed a sample plan for the no carb day. As I always state in my writing, this is merely a sample, it is not a one size fits all approach and is not the definitive weapon of choice. Do not rush out and buy all the ingredients and use this as a cookie cutter diet. I can't be ****d with the emails off the back off such ventures. This whole piece is simply a sample plan for you to deem the basics from. It's not tailored to you my friend.

06:00

40 minutes of steady state cardio at 'level 1'

07:00

Whole eggs, egg whites and whey protein

10:00

Tuna salad accompanied by fish oil caps

13:00

Chicken salad meal

16:00

Whey protein shake with flax oil

19:00

Lean red meat, fibrous veg serving and olives

22:00

Small serving of oily fish and low fat cottage cheese

"Bland!" you shout

Ok, a little but as I say, taste is subjective. Consumption of these foods for me is the norm and the psychology behind RO-CHO (almost a binge/abstinence nature of the diet) usually sees people through these days as they know the high CHO days are on the horizon. Suffer and reward, pain and pleasure, rough with the smooth. Use any cliché you wish, just ease yourself through these day by employing all the little tricks to increase satiety and decrease hunger and cravings. Remember too the nature of this day will be sedentary in terms of the weight training so the requirement for carbs is lessened slightly.

Please note that I haven't included portion size, macro splits or anything other such info on the sample plan above. I have though armed you with those tools previously and you will therefore be able to work that out off your own back given a calculator and one of the following links

www.calorieking.com

www.caloriesperhour.com

www.fitday.com

www.caloriedastabase.com

I shall state it again, this is not a ketogenic diet and the meals stated above do have fat in them but their contribution has to fit in with the guidelines stated above. If you do wish to alter your choice of fat intake, you can, but remember the advantages of n3, n6 and quality monounsaturated fats over saturated and damaged fats to overall health, performance and recovery.

Is this diet suitable for a builder, butcher, baker or a candle stick maker? (If they still exist any more and are not all redundant as a result of cheap labour in the 3rd world)

Well&#8230;&#8230; those who are physically active have a strong shout for it being suboptimal in terms of their lifestyle, performance and muscle retention. I tend to agree in the main and a mixed macro diet may suit these guys a little better with higher, stable daily CHO level, higher intake and allowing them to create an energy flux (high calorie intake to support high calorie output). In short, eat lots, put out lots of calories. You can still cycle carbs but maybe in a different framework or with different ratios.

I believe though this argument is beyond the scope of the article here and the debates as to which is 'the' number one diet for stripping fat, holding LBM will rage on.

I am simply putting forward a school of thought on body fat reduction deemed from numerous sources, studies and personal experience. I will advocate all manner of diets ranging from CKD to mixed macros often even VLCD depending on the person, their current state and their goals. So, in short this protocol is by no means definitive, simply one other approach.

The key aspect of losing body fat is to be hypocaloric whether it be by cycling, targeting or simply lower portions size, the key is playing by the laws of thermodynamics. Keep this thought in mind. If you don't have to get technical, don't. If you are on a building site all day eat to suit and rely on your activity as your calorie deficit.

Back to the diet. Do you want a sample of a high CHO day?

Sure you do but to be blunt and to the point it is similar to that of the no CHO day but with carbs in. No silly OTT servings of double chocolate this or sticky toffee that. As stated before, there are many ways to allot the carb grams across the day but this maybe a good shot for you, just remember, keep it fluent, keep it relatively clean.

07:00

Large bowl or oats or muesli

Fried egg whites

10:00

Protein shake with flax and small serving of palitanose or weetabix

13:00

Tuna salad accompanied by fish oil caps and small amount of fruit

16:00

Chicken salad meal to include large pasta or rice serving

17:00

Training with water throughout

18:00

PWO shake to include high carbs and protein

19:00

Lean red meat, sweet potatoes and fibrous veg selection

22:00

Small serving of oily fish and low fat cottage cheese

This again is a sample plan and may disappoint those looking forward to their cheap crappy sugary calories or those seeking exact calorie intakes. Whilst there is some room in the plan this is not binge re feeding, it's simply a higher CHO day and the quality of all three macronutrient groups remains high for a reason. Variety though is essential and meal rotation is encouraged through the week to aid both nutrient spectrum and sustainability whilst dieting down.

There are, like the no CHO day, no numbers and figures on the plan above. That is for you to work out from the ratios given above but ensure you are ion a negative energy balance. It maybe worth monitoring calorie intake daily for a couple of weeks before RO-CHO to check your maintenance intake and ensure you are under this through the diet (obviously factoring in to some extent the number of low intensity cardio sessions)

Do you have carbs PWO on the low carb day?

In the framework of the plan here, yes. Our 200lb man will be aiming to consume up to 200g of CHO in the day and this will fall in the breakfast meal, pre and then PWO. All other meals will be high protein, low fat and either have fibrous veg of salad to accompany them.

Below is a sample of low CHO days. This doesn't differ significantly to the high CHO days but obvious calories and macronutrient ratios switch to suit the nature of the day

06:00

Optional low level SS cardio

07:00

Large bowl or oats or muesli

Fried egg whites

10:00

Protein shake with flax

13:00

Tuna salad accompanied by fish oil caps and small amount of fruit

16:00

Chicken salad meal to include large pasta or rice serving

17:00

Training with water throughout

18:00

PWO shake to include high carbs and protein

19:00

Lean red meat, fibrous veg selection and olives

22:00

Small serving of oily fish and low fat cottage cheese

As a rough guide if one were targeting carbs in this fashion, 50g for breakfast, 50g pre and 50g PWO would be a suitable split to accompany protein in each meal. Fat will be spread across the day evenly with the exception of PWO where fat is excluded

By now we are starting to build up a sample weekly plan for the RO-CHO diet and its training plan to suit. Please don't be tempted to pick this up and decide it's a cookie cutter type of plan and follow it as printed above. The whole point of specific dietary protocols is the effectiveness of macronutrient intake and timing. Many people have the ability to ask some very basic questions 8 weeks into a ketogenic diet like "when can I eat pizza?" or "am I in ketosis?"

Well strike me down, but how on earth did you plan to structure a ketogenic diet when you haven't even worked out the fcuking basics?

Get these things right and they are ace, try and re invent the wheel with a square or simply not doing your homework equals a diet often hypercaloric, catabolic and simply ineffective for body recomposition.

Moral of the story? If you don't know, don't muddle in the dark, either educate yourself or stick to the main road. There are plenty of diets easy to follow and equally good for stripping fat. Many have enjoyed success on V2 cutting which takes a more static intake and places CHO around periods of activity.

Acceptable foods on the RO-CHO diet

As stated before, your staple items will be lean, clean and micronutrient rich

Carbohydrates

PWO only

WMS

Dextrose

Maltodextrin

Palitanose

Staple

Oats

Muesli

Basmati Wholegrain Rice

Whole meal Pasta

Sweet potatoes

Yams

Wholegrain breads

New boiled potatoes

(All fibrous veg, as used daily regardless of high, low or no CHO structure)

Feel free to add to this list and it is certainly not exhaustive

Proteins

Lean red cuts of meat

Chicken breast, skinless and boneless (n o jokes about low carb diets and boneless please)

Tuna (drained from brine or olive oil)

Eggs, whole and whites

Protein powders (whey, blends, egg white)

Lean pork

Bacon back

Low fat cottage cheese

Quark

Fish (also covered in fats)

Turkey

Fats

Fish oils

Oily Fish

Flaxseeds (ground/milled)

Flax oil

3/6/9 oil

Mixed nuts (ideally lower sodium nuts)

Mixed seeds

Olives

Olive Oil

Avocados

Nut oils

Seed oils

(Naturally occurring animal and dairy fats in small quantities)

Fibrous veg to accompany meals

Spinach

Onions

Broccoli

Celery

Cabbage

Sprouts

Tomatoes

Mushrooms

Lettuce

Cucumber

Should I split carbs and fat in my meals?

I could sit here and argue both methods, you make your own mind up. I honestly think 8g of fat in all meals is fine regardless of CHO intake as the quality of both is high. On an in take of 40-50g of quality fat a day I would suggest simply spreading it out. This rule does not apply to PWO where the shake should be devoid of fat, exogenous fibre and fructose.

Cue PWO debate 9 million 4 hundred and twenty seven thousand&#8230;.ZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzz

Whilst you are doing that, I will crack on with more pressing issues

Appetite on low CHO days

In numerous articles and online posts I have written, I bang on about the difference between physiological and psychological hunger. There are ways to obviate both and the inclusion of fibrous veg will ensure a higher level of satiety along with an increase in water intake and adequate dietary fat. The benefits of protein include its ability to satiate the dieter so low calorie days are not quite as hard as you may feel. Many get through the 'harder days' by looking forward to the high CHO days. These measure will aid the physiological hunger whilst calorie sp**** 'treats' allow for physiological hunger to be satisfied. Sugar free jelly and diet soda drinks are prime examples, but to be honest if you have the inability to go a day without carbs, maybe this diet is not for you. There are plenty of hypocaloric diets to suit.

Beverages

On low CHO days calorie rich drinks are not allowed. This means coke, juices, milk, milky/sugary coffee and similar are not advocates. Diet soda, water and green tea are preferred. Black coffee is suitable too&#8230;..lucky old you

On the higher CHO days factor in any additional calories from beverages in you budget as laid out above but do not blow your CHO quota on drinking Coke or Fanta all day (no Mountain Dew suggested either)

Alcohol

In short, no. that's my take, this is my diet but this is your shout. I personally believe in a calorie deficit all your calories should have worth. I am yet to see where alcohol would fit into this school of thought.

Excessive consumption beyond the odd measure or pint can result in lowered test levels, lowered protein synthesis, increased estrogen, and dehydration, metabolic slow down catabolism and blocking nutrient absorption. Fancy a pint? No, good. Let's crack on. "Beer is for the off season"&#8230;." Beer is for the off season"&#8230;. "Beer is for the off season"&#8230;. "Beer is for the off season"&#8230;.

Well done sir, your getting the hang of it, so let's move on.

What happens if I am not losing weight?

First protocol is to increase the cardio sessions from 3 upwards. Cardio sessions in the fasted state are all 45 minutes on empty at between 55-65% of MHR (max heart rate) for those solely looking to cut fat, maintain lean tissue

Still not losing?

Re count calories and ensure you are on the low end of the CHO intake for the high and low days and that you are excluding CHO on the no CHO days

Count all beverages and tot up total calorie intake and refer back to the guidelines

Losing too much weight too quickly?

After a stabilisation period in the first 2 weeks your weight should be reducing at a fairly even pace. If this decrease is too much and you feel you are dropping LBM up the CHO figures to the higher end of the suggested ratios for each day. Look to push CHO out to 2g per lb on high days and 1g on low days. The next step is to check your cardio protocol is suitable. But for most 1.5lb a week is a good weight to lose without major catabolism (within the framework of the RO-CHO diet)

These instances are rare and easy to obviate in the main. Use you head, not just a calculator.

Supplements you must use on RO-CHO?

None

Supplements I suggest you research and decide if they are right to add to RO-CHO?

Ok, now the wording of the question is different I am happy to throw me 2p in on the subject.

Before we proceed I would like to point out that I do not classify oils, PWO sugars and protein powders as supplements per se. these items are staple food choices in my book

Green tea

Creatine

ECA/sida cordofolia

Caffeine

There we go. A massive list of 4 supplements. How should you use them? That's for you to tell me after the reading you do and when you have completed a little research. No supplements are required on RO-CHO and those listed above are not suitable for everybody. The use of a multivitamin can be employed but the diet is micronutrient dense as it is.

Here it is then RO-CHO explained. By posting this I am not looking for discussion on carb cycling the role of ketosis or any similar debate. I am simply putting forward one (well a few) school of thought on carb cycling.

so are we going to get back to keyboard hero comments, or are we going to talk nutrition and training, something you have a lot to learn about


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## big

> I read in a thread that you have show pics on MT, can you PM me the link to em mate? Also, have you achieved anything in BBing or have any other qualifications higher than a personal training cert?


toxic

I did see that post too, but I really don't think ah24 was intending to rudely question your credentials. That's not how it came across to me. I'm sure he will (politely) correct me if I'm wrong. To me, it looks more like he is enquiring about your background - certainly it looks polite to me.

Either way, it shouldn't be an open invitation to poke fun of someone's avatar picture. The last thing any of us want on uk-m is a general fear of people posting up their pics because a reputation has been built up of mockery when someone disagrees with someone else.

If only we could all get along


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## toxictoffee

more than happy to get along mate, no doubt but if i dont agree with something i will state why by science, not just 'IMO'

crduentials wise, yes i am a fitness professional, yes i have a sports based degree but that means little

some of the most qualified people in the world are clueless and vice versa

i would suggest the article above is ample evidence to state my apppreciation of the subject

again i am happy to post more of them


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## big

Come on dude - stating something by science and effectively telling someone that their pic isn't good enough are two very different things.

I would concur that your article is more than enough evidence and openly encourage you to post up any articles which you have written into the article sections of the board. I suspect many of them would make excellent stickys.


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## toxictoffee

hi big

i am not classing the two as the same thing

i am being called out here, i am responding as with the other thread you have stated RE avatarts where everything was "thats IYO, and opinions are like ****holes, where are your pics" aimed at me

so the argument goes both ways, im happy to put up science and if i ask a question related to science and there is no answer or no logic behind the answer i would question it

the avatar things has nothing to do with this


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## airforce1

thread has been completely hijacked


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## toxictoffee

back on track

eat in a surplus and you grow

dont and you dont

the meal timing, meal choice, quality of macros, ratio of macros, intake of micros and the levels of activity give you the answer

in short eat more if you want to grow,

eat with structure if you want the additional weight to be LBM and not stored in adipose tissue


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## Bulldozer

toxictoffee said:


> i am being called out here, i am responding as with the *other thread* you have stated RE avatarts where everything was "thats IYO, and opinions are like ****holes, where are your pics" aimed at me


The other thread was me  and i said no such thing mate. You have once again twisted what i have said!

Quoting science as you put it , when infact it is more often than not just one study that has been conducted by one guy is all very well and good, but its little to no use in the real word! People need basic helpful advice that they can follow. Also for every study conducted there seems to be another that states something totally different! Wouldnt you agree?

Quoting "thermodynamics" etc is no good to 90% of the people on this board, including myself. We need it explanied in laymens terms. some real world advice that we can all follow.

And there is simply no need to be so blunt and rude to people. (although i noticed you dont mind being nice to the mods, funny that) .

We are all human beings here mate, we are all (on the whole) nice people who deserve a little more respect than being talked to like you have just scrapped us off the bottom of your shoe!

I appreciate your not here to make friends, your here to talk bb/diet etc. and thats fair enough! But lots of guys on here are friends, even if they have never met!! It makes the whole experience of sharing our opionions much more enjoyable if we all show a little respect for each other !

Airforce1 bud please except my apology for hijacking your thread. I shall spread a little karma and rep you for being a pain


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## lukey




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## Bulldozer

I will just add that i have nothing against you still TT , even tho you insulted me and miss quoted me 10 times lol.

I dont take the internet that seriously! Its all just letters on a screen and i certainly dont hold a grudge.

Lets just all be friends and play nicely ??


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## airforce1

toxictoffee said:


> back on track
> 
> eat in a surplus and you grow
> 
> dont and you dont
> 
> the meal timing, meal choice, quality of macros, ratio of macros, intake of micros and the levels of activity give you the answer
> 
> in short eat more if you want to grow,
> 
> eat with structure if you want the additional weight to be LBM and not stored in adipose tissue


thanks, but thats pretty obv. im wondering whats wrong with my diet apart from if its not enough and how i could add to it as i seem to be eatin all the time at the moment!

also am i overtraining? is 3 days a week a better option?

thanks


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## Bulldozer

airforce1 said:


> thanks, but thats pretty obv. im wondering whats wrong with my diet apart from if its not enough and how i could add to it as i seem to be eatin all the time at the moment!
> 
> also am i overtraining? is 3 days a week a better option?
> 
> thanks


As your an ectomorph bud i reckon you should only train twice a week tbh.

More often than not, less= more. Especially for people with your type of build mate.

Have a look at big "how to grow" thread. also if you wanted a good book to read buy FURTHER BRAWN and BEYOND BRAWN. by stuart McRobert.

They are a very good read and specialise in guys like yaself who struggle to put weight on.

http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/general-articles/8136-how-grow.html

I know it may be hard to get your head round at first, but trust me you dont have to spend endless days and hours in the gym in order to grow.

I only train twice a week


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## invisiblekid

The diet looks fine mate - if that is indeed what you are eating.

3 or 4 days per week is loads. Train each body part once per week if going to failure. Look at a single or dual factor routine if you don't want to go to failure.

Edit: Bulldozer hit on a very good point - you are an ectomorph. Stick to compounds and mass builders. I'm somewhere in the middle of an endo and a meso. So I have to spend more time in the gym - which I don't mind tbh, so I understand when it's hard to hear someone say spend less time in there.


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## Bulldozer

Thanks IK.

Airforce if you hit me up with a pm i think i have a copy of brawn i can email you. ( i dont think its the whole book, but got lots of info and its free  )

If your interested.

Same goes for anyone else :beer1:


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## mrmasive

Bumpo to read later :crazy:


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## airforce1

cheers for the replies! that is what im eating but maybe i should up some portions on my dinner a bit more.

im guna start doing 3 days a week like what was suggested at the start of the thread....chest n shoulders, legs, back n arms.

@ bulldozer - cheers for that mate, it wont let me PM as im new tho, i did get ur msg before just wouldnt even let me reply!!! any chance you could up it to rapidshare or something and post the link??


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## airforce1

ive just realised something.... in my diet im not having all those 3 meats by the way, just one!? if any1 got confused...


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## Bulldozer

I will see what i can do , but im a bit of a computer spaz 

The Pm only said sorry for the hijack mate. So you didnt miss anything 

This is a great board and threads dont normally end up like this, so just wanted to personally apolgise.


----------



## Five-O

Bloody hell!

First things first, this post has gone far too much off track, as in the original post, I must ask, you say your 8st 10lbs? or so, and your eating what you are and not putting weight on, are you really being honest with what your diet looks like, or could you expalin your portions? is the tuna, a can of tuna or just "some " tuna thrown on some bread, b/c seriously at your height/weight ratio I would find it hard to beleive your not gaining weight with what your eating.

ToxicToffee, well, I wouldn't expect much else from someone off MT tbh, sorry mate but your posting answers to new members questions that are far too difficult to understand in all fairness, I think you seem to go overboard on the "trying to sound impressive bit"

All this thread needed was a simple bread and butter answer/reply.


----------



## airforce1

im 5ft 7, 8 stone 13.5 apparantly now. not sure how its gone to that(i had a pair of joggers on n thats it)

i eat wholemeal bread with one can of tuna put into two sandwiches. then have one at a time. should i be having a tin in each sandwich?

erm...dinner its a chicken breast or steak or cod/salmon with rice or pasta or potatoes(new or jacket) and veg(brocolli and baby corn)

the meal replacements are pretty hefty on the calories i think. just off the myprotein site. pretty tasty-would recommend!


----------



## 3752

well i have just read this thread and i cannot believe how it has gone off topic....

Airforce1 TT is correct the reason you are not gaining weight is because you are not eating enough calories FACT......this in itself could lead to over training which in itself could be part of the reason you are not gaining weight.

As long as you are eating enough calories more than you are expending then you will gain weight if you are consuming less than you are expending you will lose weight.....it really is that simple....

I will say that i have high regard for TT's knowledge no matter what he has achieved on a bodybuilding stage, i do also agree with Big that there is no room for taking the mick out of avatar pics and will not be tolerated......

Airforce1 make a note of everything you eat for 1 week jot down sizes and weights of all you eat then go onto a nutrition site like www.fitday.com and work out the calories you eat this way you will know what you need to change.

On a last note Adam please refrain from telling other members to shut up try to express your self a little better please.


----------



## Bulldozer

airforce1 said:


> 6.30am - bowl of bran flakes with milk. maxi cyclone with bcaa's Add a spoonful of peanut butter
> 
> 8.30am - oat cereal bar not a fan of these, change it out for another solid meal if u can. if not some whey and oats in a shaker would be better
> 
> 9.30am - tuna sandwich and apple add some nuts (almonds, cashews etc)
> 
> 12.30pm - tuna sandwich and banana
> 
> 3.30pm - myprotein meal replacement shake try and have another solid meal if you can mate. chicken and rice something like that
> 
> 5.45pm - bcaa's with water (its a long time between last meal and training, perhaps alter timings ? )
> 
> 6pm - gym(strictly weights)
> 
> 7pm - cyclone with bcaa's not familiar with cyclone, but you want a 2:1 mix of carbs/protein here. Something like 100grams maltodextrin and 2 scoops whey. But as i say not familiar with cyclone
> 
> 7.30pm - meat(chicken/steak/fish) with rice and veg good
> 
> 9.30pm - myprotein meal replacement shake change it up for a tub of cottage cheese and a big old spoonful of peanut butter.


There you go bud, i dont claim to be an "expert" on diet, but just try and give out some real world advice that you can follow mate.

If i was you mate i wouldnt worry about eating over clean, i bet your metabolism is like a raging furnance!! You need to really bump up your calories! so a bit of junk food wont hurt IMO.

Just keep eating more food until you see the scales starting to go up about half a lb or so a week.

Milk can be a good bulking aid as long as you can tolerate it, lots of people are lactose intolerrant.

A great bulking shalke i use is 100 grams oats, 2 scoops whey, pint of milk, spoonful of peanut butter and a banana all mixed up in a blender. It dont taste too bad and has a shed load of calories in it!

Hope some of that helps you out bud


----------



## ALake

This is just my opinion but what worked for me as someone who really really really struggles to put on weight.

Simply put I eat platefulls of chicken, potatoes, rice and vegetables. And lots of peanut butter sandwiches.

Usually I have a bowl of cereal, a double peanut butter sandwich and then 4 meals of chicken/potatoes/rice/vegetables (+ 2 whey shakes) I eat about 10 chicken breast things a day. I used to have weightganer shakes with that but dropped it because they are bloody useless.

From 16-20 I put on about 6 pounds. I am 21 now and in 3 months I have put on over 2 stone. 

I am still a noob but this is what happened to me. I dont know any nutro toxins thingy whatevers but I just eat ****loads of GOOD food.


----------



## toxictoffee

> All this thread needed was a simple bread and butter answer/reply.


ok shall we go for laymans terms?

your diet is underpinned by heavily marketed powders yet lacks the fundamentals

what are the fundamentals (the basics is fundamentals is being too "me trying to sound impressive")

you have minimal veg

minimal solid lean meat

minimal n3 fats, that is oimega fat (EPA/DHA) fat - that is oily fish

you have minimal cholesterol, add eggs

add lean red meat

nobody grew off shakes

its micornutrient sp****

it lacks quality protein, tuna is low quality, add red meat and whole eggs

add oily fish

dont go overboard with n6 fats, omega 6s from nuts and seeds, add them but balance with 3s

start eating food, not drinking shakes

as for the comments, i am not going to respond to them as i could sit here all day ripping people to bits, i am not here for that, so lets move forwards

below is something i wrote for another site, you maybe able to take something from it...

*Becoming a huge Cnut, or at least a bigger one than before*

*
By toxictoffee *

By logging onto this site I assume, one, you have prior experience of training and, two, have the desire to become a huge ****! With that in mind I have knocked up an 'all encompassing' article to enable maximum possible muscle gains and minimal fat gains over a 12 week period This is merely one sample plan, not definitive but will yield solid lean gains for the natural or enhanced trainer

As a personal trainer and avid weightlifter I appreciate the role of strength training and sports specific routines but my ultimate love is developing 'pretty muscle' This is the notion of simply adding size and mass, clean honest lean tissue. Call it what you want, beef, meat, whatever takes your fancy, at the end of the day many people simply train to increase their muscle mass and aesthetic appeal. This choice ultimately determines the training, diet and supplementation used to achieve this goal.

Whilst some routines promote both strength and size the two never really go hand in hand to their full capacity as lower reps promote strength and power with some hypertrophy whilst a higher rep range will promote significant increases in hypertrophy and minimal power and strength. The notion of being a jack of all trades is of little interest to me and is certainly outside the scope of this article. I am not for one moment suggesting you wont add lean tissue on low reps, you just add more on moderate to higher reps. What I propose below is a simple 4 day split along with a diet and steroid protocol* for the intermediate trainer to pack of some solid mass whilst staying relatively lean. If you want a bit of strength and a bit of size plump for something by Bill Starr or Mark Rippetoe. This is not it what the article is about. This is about show muscle, minimal strength and no functional purpose, simply a balanced muscular physique that is pleasing on the eye. Full body routines with low reps will not yield optimum development on the show muscles to the extent a 4 day split with higher reps will.

I have quoted this passage from Stuart McRobert and believe it is very fitting for this piece

"I have great respect for any drug free person who can lift huge weights, but because I have a strong bias towards appearance and aesthetics, I see appearance first and lifting performance second. If appearance is heavily compromised I have little interest in strength achievements."

Stuart McRobert, Beyond Brawn

Disclaimer

*I don't suggest you use AAS

So we are clear on that! I don't want a host of emails from people suggesting I screwed their health up or any similar wild accusations!

Let's get on to the training. I am not going to bore you with science but there are a couple of points I would like to clarify. There are plenty of solid routines out there which will pack on size. This is one of many but is tried and tested. Some others will work equally well in the framework outlined below, many won't

Low repetition weight training simply does not result in absolute muscular size due multiple mechanisms such as early CNS failure which inhibits the increase of GH and testosterone associated higher rep sets and does not stimulate sarcoplasmic hypertrophy. The TUT (time under tension) is simply not enough to induce maximum growth when doing lower reps and is more suited to power and strength athletes. In short if you are doing below 5 reps in an attempt to get big, I suggest you change to the rep structure to the one outlined below or similar (8/8/8, 10/10/10) if you are simply training for aesthetics. Various pyramiding and drop sets can also be factored in if you wish especially on certain muscle groups

This is my informed, practised choice, I'm not looking for a debate as its been plastered all over the internet for years and there is plenty of research out there if you wish to find it

The rep range 8-12 will be employed for 3 sets per exercise, 4 exercises per day. 8-12 reps are perfect for stimulating hypertrophy in type 2a and 2b muscle fibres. For more reading on this, Google Brad Schoenfeld or William Kraemer and you can spend hours on the science behind reps and set structure. Muscles display higher composition of Slow twitch fibres have also been catered for in the plan with higher rep schemes and longer TUT to stimulate growth accordingly.

Here goes

Day 1

Flat bench press 12/10/8

Incline DB press 12/10/8

Weighted wide dips 3 x RF (reasonable failure)

Standing barbell military press 12/10/8

Day 2

Deadlifts 12/10/8

Weighted chins 3 x RF (reasonable failure)

Seated cable row 12/10/8

Barbell shrugs 12/10/8

Day 3

Barbell squats 12/10/8

45 degree leg press 12/10/8

SLDLs 12/10/8

Calf raises 20/20/20

Day 4

Standing barbell press 12/10/8

Super setted with

Skull crushers 12/10/8

Alternating DB curl 12/10/8

Super setted with

Heavy push downs 12/10/8

There we go, a simple 4 day split, reps are higher than you may think especially on Deadlifts and squats. As state before this is not the only method of training but suitable for pure hypertrophy. Personal preference for tempo is 4-0-2-0 but that's something you can play with to suit, but appreciate TUT is key here, no jerky movements, no jackhammer reps, slow and controlled, with full ROM (range of motion) on both eccentric and concentric phase.

Oh yeh, Have at least one day off between day 2 and three! I don't want the emails saying you can't recover!

The split may look like this

Monday = day 1

Tuesday = day 2

Thursday = day 3

Friday = day 4

Or

Monday = day 1

Tuesday = day 2

Friday = day 3

Saturday = day 4

Progression is absolutely paramount&#8230;I cannot stress this enough. You have to increase poundage during the 12 weeks to ensure progressive overload. Without this you will not grow. If this means getting some small .5kg plates, so be it, increase the weight

Document all weights lifted and make the smallest progress possible

Example being

Weighted dips

Week 1 - 5kg additional weight

Week 2 - 7.5kg additional weight

Week 3 - 8.5kg additional weight

Week 4 - 10kg additional weight

And so on and so on

The same goes for barbell pressing and squatting, Deadlifts and curls. There are many ways to progress. I prefer micro loading each session as above. The plan is designed for a 12 week period initially and increases are expected each week

PCT Post cycle therapy (see later instructions) or the end of the 12 weeks may bring a de loading week or an alteration of the training protocol with the suggestion of 3 day splits, GVT or 4 day upper lower methods being employed.

Does cardio play a role?

Yes it can. Light cardiovascular work can be incorporated on days of with a steady bike ride, power walk or by using the cross trainer or ergonomic rower. No crazy sprinting long runs or similar are though suggested.

How should you eat?

In short, eat big and eat clean. I am not one for sloppy bulks, eating anything that isn't nailed down and ingesting Trans fat and sugar laden foods in an attempt to get big. I believe there is only a certain amount of lean tissue to be gained a week and beyond this level its pure fat being laid down and more work to get through when cutting. Eat in a calorie surplus but not one which is so far beyond your requirements you end up with a sloppy bulk.

The basics are lean protein, quality carbohydrates (CHO) and a range of fats to include predominantly essential fats (EFA's) and other good poly and monounsaturated fatty acids

There should always be a positive nitrogen balance to ensure adequate growth. As they say, keep the glass full but don't let it overspill too much. The meals will be structured to be occur every 2-3 hours and will generally include a micronutrient rich portion of fruit or veg. shakes can be included for those who are busy at work or on the road although the more solid meals the better.

The diet is simply a base plan opposed to the calories you require to grow. That part is for you to decide in relation to stats, lifestyle and activity levels. If you are not gaining, up the portion size. If you are getting fat, drop them. Its not rocket science, simply pick up the structure and play with portion size. Many trainers love facts and figures and require an exact protein intake figure. I suggest a minimum of 1.5g per lb of bodyweight unless you fall either end of the body fat spectrum, then base it on lean weight. CHO intake is very individual and will depend on lifestyle. Active people will require more, sedentary people less. Fat intake is also a well debated topic. There is a requirement for this much maligned macronutrient regardless of what the media suggests. Again i'm not one for suggesting numbers but a baseline of 60g ED would be a minimum. As stated before, eat, monitor and adjust accordingly

Sample diet

07:30 100g oats or muesli in skimmed milk

6 egg whites with 2 whole eggs fried in small amount of olive oil

10:00 wholemeal pita bread

175g chicken or tuna

Salad selection

10ml flax oil

12:30 75 g of basmati rice

175g chicken or tuna

Veg selection

Small piece of fruit

15:00 protein blend shake (35g of powder)

2 weetabix

1 banana

Small teaspoon peanut butter

Blend in water

17:30 75g wholemeal pasta

8 egg whites fried (add veg in

Such as spinach, onions, tomatoes and broccoli)

18:30 weight training (drink water throughout)

19:30 40g whey protein isolate

30g dextrose

30g maltodextrin

5g leucine

Blend in water

20:30 150g lean red meat

2 sweet potatoes

Veg selection

22:30 protein bled shake (40g)

5 fish oil caps

This is the sample diet. As stated, the portion size will change in relation to the factors also listed above. Its big, it's clean and will promote anabolism for those who subscribe. This would be aimed at a mildly active office worker. If you are slugging bricks for 10 hours a day on a building increase the calories to suit.

Do not exclude the veg, do not leave out the essential fats and supplement with at least 2-3 litres of water a day. If you wish to use creatine, you can do. Pre or PWO is fine and 3-5g is adequate depending on creatine type

If you train at different times, get up earlier or go to bed later, use your head and swing the meals to suit. PWO is obvious enough and is also eliminated from the plan on off days for obvious reasons. A small snake of nuts or fruit could replace this for those who are peckish in this period. Hunger though is one issue that should not occur on a bulking diet.

Supplements to use

In all honesty the supplements market is saturated with over hyped bull**** and snake oil that young kids and uneducated trainers love. I have never been a fan of spending vast amounts of money on them and neglecting diet as a result. The use of creatine is advocated on this diet for those who have researched, and as a result, found it suitable for their needs. The BCAA (branch chain amino acid) Leucine is also included PWO (post work out) as studies have shown it to be both insulinogenic and enhancing protein synthesis in the initial PWO phase. These are both very cheap supplements from bulk suppliers and do not have to be used, they do help though. Do not for one moment think you can hold a **** diet up with supplements. This is no the case. The plan stated is to be adhered to on all fronts. If employed in this form it will work. If you decide to re invent the wheel and come up with a square shaped piece of crap, it aint gonna roll is it?

The use of alcohol and recreational drugs.

I abhor the notion of both alcohol and rec drugs being used during steroid cycles and have an equally dim view on their use by anyone looking to maximise gains. There is plenty of literature on both and their place in bodybuilding. The conclusion is simply that they don't have a place in training in my book if you want to be the best you can be. Beyond the odd social drink any excessive consumption of alcohol will be detrimental to your progression as a natural or enhanced trainer.

Lethargy, lowered test levels, increased oestrogen, empty calories, liver disease, the inhibition of lipolysis, dehydration, lowered protein synthesis, blocking absorption of electrolytes and micronutrients, blah blah blah. The list is endless. You are pushing your body in a positive direction, these substances are pulling you back the other way.

The issues are magnified when using oral steroids which are potentially hepatoxic and the additional work for the liver on higher consumptions of alcohol makes this a no brainer in my book.

Alcohol or gear, Get big or stay small. Your call

PCT is not the time to pick up the pint either. Same rules apply as fair as i'm concerned.

The AAS

Before we get going on this I would like to, for the third time, suggest the use of steroids is not personally advocated. This is an informed decision you should make after adequate reading.

So, now we have the disclaimer over, let's look at a base course. The tried and tested first course for a new steroid user would simply consist of 10-12 weeks of an injectable testosterone. Enanthate of Cypionate is a good choice and will be injected twice a week to give 500mg. Some trainers will gain on 250mg EW but for the purpose of this article the base level will be stated as 500mg.

With most enanthate products being 250mg/ml this equates to two single 1ml shots each week for 10-12 weeks followed 2 weeks later by post cycle therapy (PCT). In short, two weeks after your last jab you run PCT

The protocol for PCT will be Novae and or Clamed. Some will suggest the use of HCG (Human Chronic Gonadatrophin) towards the end of the cycle to kick the 'balls back into action' in anticipation of PCT. This again is for the user to decide upon after adequate reading and self assessment. Some users may employ HCG if testicular atrophy is noticeable whilst others will simply employ the nolva and clomid protocol.

The cycle looks like this

Weeks 1-12 500mg test enanthate/cypionate EW

Week's 14-17 nolva or clomid protocol

Nolva or clomid can be used as a PCT protocol or a combination of the two. Samples below show the dosing required which will start 2 weeks after the last injection

Nolva (Tamoxifen)

Day 1 - 100mg

Day 2-11 - 60mg

Day 12-21 - 40mg

Of if using clomid:

Clomid (Clomiphene Citrate)

Day 1 - 300mg

Day 2-11 - 100mg

Day 12 -21 - 50mg

Both drugs can be orally administered in one session due to their long half life.

If the user wishes to combine the drugs after the first day of 200mg of Clomid and 40mg of Nolva an intake of 50mg of clomid and 20mg of nolvadex will be commence for the following 3 week period

For those wishing to employ HCG the suggestion is to administer either intramuscular or subcutaneous injections in the days leading up to your last shot. For most this wont be required but for those doing there is a requirement to finish the HCG at least 7 days before PCT is commenced

A dose of 500-1000 iu ED for 10 days to two weeks would be advisable.

Eating during PCT

Eating must continue in a similar vain to ensure new tissue is held onto and to allow an environment for your body to recover and restore HPTA functioning (get your balls back working) and ensure homeostasis is restored (pre cycle)

Endogenous test is low at this point and dietary measures can aid the journey to full 'recovery' as the exogenous test has been withdrawn from the body.

Do not eat like you want to cut, cutting comes later down the line. Eat, recover, keep new muscle, and get your nuts working. Some trainers ay wish to employ creatine, tribulus and other OTC (other the counter) supplements to aid recovery. These are not a substitute for either nolvadex or clomid but may aid recovery to some extent and hold onto lean tissue gained from the 12 week cycle. Do not rely on tribulus for your PCT period. Just to confirm, trib is not sufficient. Think that one is sorted!

I have already done one cycle, what changes?

The addition of a second compound such as DECA (Deca Durabalon), increasing the dose of the original compound or 'kick starting' with and oral steroid are all methods of progression. Dbol kick starts are popular or running an oral at the back end of the cycle is also a possibility. Frontloading a higher test dose in the initial weeks is also chosen by many

Advanced cycles are again beyond the scope of this article but can be discussed in the drugs forum at www.huge****s.co.uk

Fell free to post your proposed cycle there for critique. I am not a steroid guru by any means and simply have a basic appreciation of their use, cycling and role in training

Please appreciate this is not a website for sourcing anabolic steroids and none of the owners or moderators are either associated with the supply or advocate the use of AAS

Ok, you have the tools, now fcuk off and grow, naturally or as an enhanced athlete after plenty of reading! It does not take steroids to add muscle, it takes a dedicated, wise man free of excuses.

For those requiring tailored advice (on diet and training, not steroid use, my email is [email protected])

Toxictoffee


----------



## toxictoffee

ps

tht above is not restricted to AAS users nor is it definitive, its a sample diet


----------



## Bulldozer

That was actually a good read! Good basic advise.

I Personally think 4 days MAY be OTT for guys like airforce1 however. Being a hardgainer (most likely) as he is very ectomorphic tendencies.

Wouldnt you say it was more sensible to base your training towards strength at the beggining? Then when you are moving a far bit of iron worry about hypertrophy.

(im not looking for an argument dude never was)

You quoted Stuart McRobert also which gob smacked me i have to admit


----------



## hackskii

toxictoffee said:


> Nolva or clomid can be used as a PCT protocol or a combination of the two. Samples below show the dosing required which will start 2 weeks after the last injection
> 
> Nolva (Tamoxifen)
> 
> Day 1 - 100mg
> 
> Day 2-11 - 60mg
> 
> Day 12-21 - 40mg
> 
> Of if using clomid:
> 
> Clomid (Clomiphene Citrate)
> 
> Day 1 - 300mg
> 
> Day 2-11 - 100mg
> 
> Day 12 -21 - 50mg
> 
> Both drugs can be orally administered in one session due to their long half life.
> 
> If the user wishes to combine the drugs after the first day of 200mg of Clomid and 40mg of Nolva an intake of 50mg of clomid and 20mg of nolvadex will be commence for the following 3 week period
> 
> For those wishing to employ HCG the suggestion is to administer either intramuscular or subcutaneous injections in the days leading up to your last shot. For most this wont be required but for those doing there is a requirement to finish the HCG at least 7 days before PCT is commenced
> 
> A dose of 500-1000 iu ED for 10 days to two weeks would be advisable.


Hey bro, I can see the amounts of clomid due to 20mg of nolvadex being equal to 150mg of clomid.

But why 100mg of nolva for day 1?

Also why 60mg of nolva for days 2-11?

And also why nolva @ 40mg from 12-21 days?

Hey man, that is a pretty high dose of nolva and from everything I ever read you dont need that much.

Remember nolva and clomid are both agonists and antoginists to estrogen.

Adding that much nolva runs a risk of putting the prostate at risk to excess estrogen (something most dont know about).

More is not better in most cases and using just enough to aid in recovery is just fine.

Adding in too much could only compromise liver values and put the prostate at risk.......


----------



## toxictoffee

scott

that was a basic protocol and as stated, im not steroid 'boff' that can be argued all day, the cycle was just an addition to the diet as it was aimed at new users. so it was an add on to the diet, which was the focus rather than the cycle, you can even argue against the use of nolva full stop. i am willing to bow down to superior knowledge RE AAs use as its not my forte

bulldozer

it was aimed at those going for size and as stated in the plan bill starrs or rippetoes could be used for beginners, that is for sure a good idea, but then again a new trainer would not be running gear

the article is based on a seasoned trainer in terms of gear and training but the diet remains (which of course is the focus of the thread here)

so training aside the diet runs true

for hard gainers i would say 2-3 things could be altered:

1-dropping the fibrous nature of some carbs

2-adding fats with less satiety (such as monos over polys)

3-an addition to the carbs intake if gains were not coming

so thats the base line of solid food to eat and the calories would be increased to suit gains, coming intially from carbs


----------



## airforce1

thanks to every1 whos replied in this thread!!! lots of gd advice been given and im taking it all on board.

im going to have to think of some solutions to having the shakes, its quite hard being at work to have solid food all the time but im guna see what i can prepare the night before to take in. the peanut butter sandwiches sound good though and easy!!

as for the training im goin to try 3 times a week from now on using mainly compound exercises and increase the weight each week gradually.

i guess its all experimentation and dedication. does any body take a sort of tonic to increase their appetite? there are times when i simply cant/dont feel like eating anymore. my mum(of all ppl) recommended something called metotonic or something...apparantly its used for after you've had the flu to get your appetite back!?


----------



## invisiblekid

If you are struggling with your appetite I'd suspect over training. I know if I feel over trained I find it difficult to eat. This isn't a hard and fast rule/symptom, but I know it effects me. As said, vary your diet and stick in some red meat.

Weigh what you eat - write it down and post it up. Do it for everything you consume. Start a thread like the show prep threads if it helps.

Do the same with your training.


----------



## toxictoffee

my shake

This is for the so called hardgainer or the bulking human dustbins who cannot eat at work. it must IMO be accompanied by at leat 3-4 other solid meals during the non working day

liquid egg whites x 10 170 calories 40g protein

choc casein powder x 50g 200 calories 40g protein

smij of whole egg powder x 10g 5g protein 75 calories

choc whey x 15g 10g protein 75 calories

weetabix x 6 400 calories 85g of CHO

oat powder x 25g 100 calories 15g of CHO

flax oil x 10ml 80 calories 8g of fat

walnut oil x 5ml 50 calories 4g of fat

coconut oil x 5ml 40 calories 4g of fat

banana x 2 200 calories 50g of CHO

smooth peanut butter x 1 teaspoon 75 calories 5g of fat 3g protein

aspartamte x 3 teaspoons

water to suit

~1500 calories - all cals/amounts are rough, dont worry about them, worry about growing

2 litre + flask

Use a road drill like hand blender followed by some massive shaking before each of 3 servings throughout the day, generally 2-3 hours apart. sedentry people can lower the quantities, active can increase them

this is a pure mass gainer and i take no responsibility for those who add signficant amounts of weight by over estimating their calorie requirements

it will though provide a very good calorie spectrum for those needing size


----------



## boro62

liquid egg whites x 10 170 calories 40g protein

choc casein powder x 50g 200 calories 40g protein

smij of whole egg powder x 10g 5g protein 75 calories

choc whey x 15g 10g protein 75 calories

weetabix x 6 400 calories 85g of CHO

oat powder x 25g 100 calories 15g of CHO

flax oil x 10ml 80 calories 8g of fat

walnut oil x 5ml 50 calories 4g of fat

coconut oil x 5ml 40 calories 4g of fat

banana x 2 200 calories 50g of CHO

smooth peanut butter x 1 teaspoon 75 calories 5g of fat 3g protein

aspartamte x 3 teaspoons

water to suit

Hi m8,

I would like to try this shake as my job involves a lot of driving,is it possible to get these ingrediants from local supermarket or health shop or do i need to buy online and if online is there one site where i can get it all from rather than shopping around.

cheers m8.


----------



## hackskii

toxictoffee said:


> scott
> 
> i am willing to bow down to superior knowledge RE AAs use as its not my forte


My forte is PCT but I myself bow down to superior kowledge of routines as that is not my forte.

But I love to learn, and I try to learn something every day.

Like picking up pieces of a puzzle and finding the places to fit.

eventually the big picture gets a bit more clear.


----------



## toxictoffee

scott

run me by a PCT protocol as i know it differs in theory from US to UK, i like different takes

as for where to buy 'all dat sh1t' above

a combo of high street and www.myprotein.co.uk

ps feel free to remove the link above if its seen as 'self promotion'


----------



## hackskii

toxictoffee said:


> scott
> 
> run me by a PCT protocol as i know it differs in theory from US to UK, i like different takes
> 
> as for where to buy 'all dat sh1t' above
> 
> a combo of high street and www.myprotein.co.uk
> 
> ps feel free to remove the link above if its seen as 'self promotion'


Sure,

http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/steroids-associated-drugs-articles/17336-understanding-pct.html

Protocol is just that, protocol!

What works, is really what matters.

And even this is a personal issue in regard's to recovery.

Sorry, a few beer's under my belt (Go figure:doh:?)

Look fwd to sharing ideas on things, sounds stimulating......

Iron sharpens Iron like one man sharpens another.

:beer1:


----------



## Jock

I've only had a few dealings with MP but I've found their range of products, prices and delivery all superb.

TT can you explain the benefit of aspartame?


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## toxictoffee

scott

thanks for the link

jock

simply flavour but TBH sweeteners have positives and negative IMO


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## hackskii

toxictoffee said:


> scott
> 
> thanks for the link
> 
> jock
> 
> simply flavour but TBH sweeteners have positives and negative IMO


More negatives than positives.

They just came out last week and suggested that artificial sweetners and regular sugar in the soda's both had the same effect.

You can get an insulin responce from artificial sweetners.


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## toxictoffee

> You can get an insulin responce from artificial sweetners.


yes and they are documented to stimulate binge eating in some studeis


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## Jimmy1

i have been saying this for ages now

i never advise artificial sweeteners any more

maybe 1 diet drink a day for taste...but no more than that


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