# ab workout



## liftheavy61 (Aug 31, 2003)

i need help getting a good ab workout.

i have put off my abs until now when i decided its time for me to work them.

i need to work on my lower and love handles. basically the whole package.

anyone got n e good routines help would be good.

thanks


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## JawD (Sep 15, 2004)

Your abs are the same as most other muscle groups. They are split into 3/4 sections. Upper, Lower and Two Sides (Obliques sp?). I think the mistake many make are hammering out 100 quick fire reps. I have a fairly simple routine but it feels right for me.

I use a swiss ball and/or a raised bench. But a floor is good.

For your upper abs:-

3 Sets of 15 Reps - Standard Crunch. Each Rep should last 4-5 seconds. I usually count as I go. 1-2 up, 1 hold, 4-5 down. Rest for a minute in between. I recommend doing this "uphill" on a angled bench. Its a killer! If you do though, DONT come all the way back down, keep the strain on your abs.

For lower Abs:

Again I do 3 x 15 with same speed. You could lie the other way on the bench and bring your knees up to your chest ensuring you roll your lower back up - pulling in your abs. Another would be knee raises. Another that I like is lie on your back with your arms by your sides flat, now raise your legs so they are verticle, then crunch your waist back, your legs should go back and your lower back raise off the ground. Basically, its all about bringing your lower torso to the upper, as opposed to a standard crunch which is the opposite.

Sides

Same number of reps etc, you could do either a crunch with a twist at the end (do 2 x 15 left and 2 x 15 right). If you do this, your back should be amost flat but your knees together on one side. Another is using the swiss ball bringing your side up to crunch it.

How does this sound? These are just a few ideas for you. There are plenty of other to choose from. If I could give one good tip it would be to ensure you do something for your lowers abs as well as top. They are often missed out and are not hit properly by a standard crunch.

If, like me, you have love handles  no amount of crunches will get rid of that though, that needs to be burned off as its a fat store and you cant spot reduce. Sorry if you already knew that!


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Love handles basicly boil down to diet. There is no such thing as spot reducing.

You want a nice tummy then diet is the way to go.


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## Killerkeane (Nov 9, 2003)

good advice jawd, pretty much covered it all. And what hacks said, if you want a six pack you need minimal body fat. so high repped sets with a good diet is key.


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## liftheavy61 (Aug 31, 2003)

thanks,one excercise i have been doing for my obliques is holding a dumbbell in one hand,leaning to that side,squeezing on the side om leaning to,and stretching the other. it works real good


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## Guest (Sep 22, 2004)

i am by no means a core meastro. but i know a thing or 2.

some points to help you construct your own routine.

1. the abs muscles are no different to your biceps, in that reps above 20 will achive nothing. and i mean nothing.

2. ALWAYS do your lower abs first

3. there are ALOT more muscles in your abdomen than "upper and lower and side abs". for a start, the upper and lower "abs" are all one mucle. the transverse abdominis. or TVA. this is an annoying muscle as it tends to take priority in training, when it really shouldn't. these "side abs" are indeed the obiliques. however, crunches of any sort is not the most productive way to train them. side bends, turkish get ups and suitcase deadlifts are.

4. read up on the multifidi, the RA (rectus abdominis) etc at t-mag.com.

train your abs for strength and do cardio and use good diet to reduce fat. you'll have a cracking "6pack" and still have functional muscle. double points.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

This is where I am going to have to disagree and for the following reasons.

First off, most of the big body builders dont do abs very much as not to bulk them up but just tone them so you can see them before a comp.

If you do heavy ab work then you will bulk up the abs and this will give the appearence of having a thick waist. This is not good.

Think of the diaphram working day and night to supply the lungs with air. This muscle never gets a rest.

I would say that doing abs every day or EOD would be ideal to still have the strength but not the huge blocky abs. Also high reps will achieve this not the other way around.

Look at boxers?

How often do boxers and martial arts guys do abs?

Answer every day.

They do alot of ab work for protection of the mid section. If doing heavy abs was the case then fighters would do heavy abs. But the fact of the matter they do reps and they work abs everyday.


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## Guest (Sep 22, 2004)

hackskii said:


> This is where I am going to have to disagree and for the following reasons.
> 
> First off, most of the big body builders dont do abs very much as not to bulk them up but just tone them so you can see them before a comp.
> 
> ...


Thats a fair point: BBers don't do abs too much.

But, this guy is not a pro BBer, also, why would you do higher reps to "tone up"? what exactly is "toning"? its not in my vocabulary thats for sure dude. like you said, muscle definition is down to the reducton of fat. muscle tone is the state that describes a muscle at rest. I.e. the number fibres that are contracted even "at rest".

your point again about boxers is a fair one. however, they do not train for looks, they train for endurance and strength. i would say boxers have very "blocky" looking abs. all the big HW's do. (tyson, lewis and even GB "newkidontheblock" harrision).


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## Guest (Sep 22, 2004)

lastly, the abs do not have the same potential for hypertrophy as most skeletal muscle as a much lower proportion of the fibers are type IIb (fast twitch).


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## GoldenArrow (Mar 30, 2004)

TVA doesn't take priority, it is made to work inneffectively by overtraining the muscles on top of it (abs, obliques etc), therefore increasing potential for injury. I'd recommend training 'core' over 'abs' if I had to choose 1, and certainly wouldn't just do abs.

Ps. who is James Titor, I found some bizzare time-travel forum where the name was mentioned...?


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## Guest (Sep 22, 2004)

its john titor that you mean mate. read up on it. its one of the cleverest ways of getting your opinions on todays society accross i have ever seen. pure genius.


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## Guest (Sep 22, 2004)

and your dead right about the TVA not taking priority. too many people think the RA is the only abs muscle that matters.


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## GoldenArrow (Mar 30, 2004)

http://www.timetravelinstitute.com/ttiforum/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=time_travel&Number=25258&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1 that's the link.

Might have a read, I'm not too into time travel/alien/conspiracy theory stuff any more though..


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## Guest (Sep 22, 2004)

i think its hog wash, but the idea is awesome. what better way to get people to lisen to your ideas and theories than pretend your the 1 man that can really help/change the sh1tty future we are all going to have to burden. time travel wouldn't be my first port of call, but it sure as hell worked.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

I still stick with the doing reps for abs.

You dont want blocky abs anyway.

Look at the diaphram this is an endurance muscle for sure.

Can you isolate the diaphram from the abs?...............................Nope!

Abs are one of the only muscles you can work every day. Along with calves and forearms. Lets face it carpenters have great forearms and they use them almost every day.

The lighter wieght boxers dont have blocky abs either.

I did heavy abs and got blocky abs myself. Does this look good outside a shirt? .....NOPE!

I feel abs are needed to work alot and frequent. Now you are welcome to debate if you wish but ab's look the best with lower % of bodyfat either way.

Toning? Well again higher reps will work nicely here to burn more cals.


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## SD (Sep 3, 2004)

hackskii said:


> Toning? Well again higher reps will work nicely here to burn more cals.


Surprised to hear you say that Hackskii this is the sort of thing my middle aged ladies say 'oh I just want to tone'. I think they mean I 'want to be lazy and not work too hard' 

Higher reps don't necessarily burn more cals, they require less effort after all. Also lower reps ranges/ with higher weight are more hypertrophic and that will increase metabolism and therefore post exercise oxygene consumption = calories. Did you mean something else?

Regards

SD


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## Guest (Sep 23, 2004)

hackskii said:


> I still stick with the doing reps for abs.
> 
> You dont want blocky abs anyway.
> 
> ...


i don't want to quote thins sentence by sentence mate, thats not called for. but i strongly disagree. you would have to do ALOT of volume over a long period to get "blocky" abs. and carpenters don't have that great forarms, it takes them half a working lifetime to get big forarms, i don't want to wait 20 years. who mentioned the diaphram? i didn't. i would never reccomend isolating anyhthing unless you absolutely had to, let alone something like that. any muscle can be worked everyday, but not to its limit. forarms definitley can't be worked more than 3xWeek if your training wiuth any real intensity and power.


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## big pete (Mar 23, 2004)

also using carpenters as an example, yes in comparison they would have great forearms (or whichever muscle) because they are only really USING that muscle.

also, this might be debated, but i dont beleive you can overtrain if you ONLY work a single muscle group. because you can put all your bodies recuperation abilities into one muscle group, instead of spreading it over the whole of the body. again that goes for labourers too, they grip all day long and only use the rest of there bodies capabilities minimally. (if there is a carpenter reading this then they will prob have summat to say about this!!! lol )


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## Guest (Sep 23, 2004)

good post big pete.


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

I dont work abs at all. Why would I want to build up the waist and tape bigger?

I get blocky abs. That is if you could see them............lol. I would never work obliques eather. It just makes the handlebars look bigger.


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## CRMon1 (Sep 23, 2004)

* I do abs 3 times a week. 3 sets of incline situps, 25 reps each. The whole thing takes about 6 minutes, and I have strong abs that have a good shape. The main thing is to do something, now.*


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Remember muscles adapt to resistance. The more resistance the more in effect muscle growth.

So why would you want alot of resistance on the abs? Long distance runners have strong legs but they are not like body builders legs.

Body builders are not suited for long distance running either.

So why would a bodybuilder want massive abs when symentry would tell you to have at least a 10" taper from waist to chest?

You can go heavy on abs if you want but I would rather go heavy on legs, shoulders and back to get them strong and big not the abs.

The comment on toning is you have to work the whole body otherwise you will be out of ballance. Abs help support the back and also hold in your organs.

I dont think abs have alot of type 2 muscle fibers in them unlike calves. So why go heavy in them anyways.

Pro body builders dont bulk up their abs.

Boxers dont either.

You can do abs every day. This will not bulk them up but keep them toned (ha ha SD) You can go to failure too on abs for a set of high reps.

When I do abs I do no less than 50 reps and sometimes over 70 reps. It is kindof torture but this is ok.

Symetry is what we are looking for in abs not lets see how much weight I can lift with my abs.


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## Guest (Sep 24, 2004)

we obviously differ hugely on opinion. its not trainng we are debating here, its the fundementals of physiology.

i have stated my case and without facts to back up either side, we are going to go in circles. which in my experince on this board, usually ends up with people tell me to chill out. lol. so we will leave it here for now.


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## GoldenArrow (Mar 30, 2004)

Hey chill out!

(had to do something to get you back, I'm still bloody reading about John Titor.....you'll pay for this! *shakes fist*)


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## Guest (Sep 24, 2004)

Lmao. Brilliant ain't it. What the fcuk was the guy on when he sat there and thought:

"What can i do to make people listen to my ideas about politics and society, that others have not done?"

"I know, i'll be a fcuking alein or something, NO WAIT! Better than that, a time traveller."

lmfao


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## John (Jun 5, 2004)

6 minute abs thats never gonna work , 7 minute abs thats the trick .


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

fundementals of physiology?

Hardly, I agree with lifting heavy to promote muscle growth.

But for as long as I have been lifting 28 years (longer than you have been alive), I have never heard anyone use alot of resistance for abs. Never ever. Pro's dont do it, boxers dont do it, fighters dont do it, only Robert does it.

Just talked to a sports therapist yesterday on this subject and all his lifts he goes heavy but not abs. Hmmmm. Guess he dont know what he is talking about either.

He did say that leg lifts were not good for the lower back and should be avoided. I thought that was interesting but he trains athletes and is a sports chiropractor and he does know his stuff.

No debating here you are just the long voice in the wilderness. I doubt you can show any scientific evedince other than your opinion.


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

hackskii said:


> I doubt you can show any scientific evedince other than your opinion.


Thats good enough for me.............................lol

Hey did I tell you I got 2 reps with 505lbs on my abs yesturday. They are coming along nicely. I did cheat a little bit on the bottom......................lol


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## Guest (Sep 24, 2004)

hackskii said:


> fundementals of physiology?
> 
> Hardly, I agree with lifting heavy to promote muscle growth.
> 
> ...


ok, so maybe we wont drop it then?



> I have been lifting 28 years (longer than you have been alive),


i get that all the time. it means FA and TBH discredits your arguement.



> Pro's dont do it, boxers dont do it, fighters dont do it, only Robert does it.


seriously, do you know anyhtring about boxing/fighting? i have been boxing for years and nearly every pro put core strength and endurance down as #1 priority.

check out:

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/ss3.htm

http://www.rossboxing.com/thegym/thegym19.htm

http://www.realfighting.com/0102/links.htm

and deffo buy this:

http://www.mattfurey.com/combat_abs.html

and read this:

http://www.fortifiediron.net/invision/index.php?showtopic=5558

and ask the guys at:

http://www.abudokan.com/forums

where again, i am a member. though the site is down ATM it will be up again on tues.

strength and endurance are the most important things for a fighters core.

your sports physio is right if you want no strength or hypertrophy, he is wrong if you do. i want strength, so i do lower reps for abs (5-12range). endurance is a different matter.

This guy is not a pro BBer or a fighter, so why are we even debating this?


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## Guest (Sep 24, 2004)

> He did say that leg lifts were not good for the lower back and should be avoided


if he means hanging legs raises, you need to go see another physio mate. thats utter nonsense. i pulled a 190kg deadlift yesterday, and he is dsaying my back is going to get injured by supporting my body during a hanging legs raise?!?!! wtf?


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

Well James I boxed for 4 years everyday with a pro trainer. His name is Jessie Reed. I never did low reps for abs. I guess he dosn't know what he is talking about eather. All I did was 100 decline sittups. I hit abs, seratis and intercostals. I could take a huge body punch. Only bruised the ribs once in 4 years. That is 5 days a week sparing. You are not going to get everybody to agree with you.


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## Guest (Sep 24, 2004)

winger said:


> Well James I boxed for 4 years everyday with a pro trainer. His name is Jessie Reed. I never did low reps for abs. I guess he dosn't know what he is talking about eather. All I did was 100 decline sittups. I hit abs, seratis and intercostals. I could take a huge body punch. Only bruised the ribs once in 4 years. That is 5 days a week sparing. You are not going to get everybody to agree with you.


it doesn't bother me if you agree or not. 100reps is fine for endurance training. you should do endurance training, i have never said you shouldn't. what i am saying is, if your doing it every day, your doing somethign wrong. BTW dude, the intercostals are the muscles that control expansion and contraction of the ribcage cavity. you can't train them with situps.

like i tried to do abotu 6posts ago, lets drop it and agree to disagree eh? before this goes downhill again.


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## Guest (Sep 24, 2004)

http://www.exrx.net/Muscles/SerratusAnterior.html

i would also be very wary of the advice the guy gave you when he said decline situps use the serratus as a prime mover (i presume thats what you meant by "seratis").


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## Guest (Sep 24, 2004)

one last thing:

if fifty million people say something, it doesn't make it right. - antole france


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## DB (Oct 31, 2003)

James, seriously mate u gotta listen to other people's views and opinions.

we're not debating maths equations here so there is no wrong or right in bodybuilding, only peoples OPINIONS and what works best for them, I agree opinions have changed over the years about what right and wrong. For instance if u compare Arnie's training to Dorian's you obviously can tell the major differences, however they both had amazing bodies.

Winger only picked up one injury to his body from boxing which obviously ment those 100 declines worked for him, if u think weighted ab work works for you then great carry on and I wish u success but you just cant preach on people your ways because you think they are always correct.

I occasionally do weighted ab work, but I mix my ab work up all the time as with all body parts as that's what works for me.

You've obviously read up serious amounts of knowledge on the body and bodybuilding, so share it with us don't force it on us, if someone doesn't agree with u it's not the end of the world.

Lastly&#8230;.. Can you try and phrase your answers better as you come across very aggressive and seem to rub people the wrong way from time to time.

I mean this as no attack on you what so ever.


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## Guest (Sep 24, 2004)

> You've obviously read up serious amounts of knowledge on the body and bodybuilding, so share it with us don't force it on us, if someone doesn't agree with u it's not the end of the world.


eh? i know its not the end of the world? hats why i suggested we drop it. take as little or a much from what i say as you like.



> Lastly&#8230;.. Can you try and phrase your answers better as you come across very aggressive and seem to rub people the wrong way from time to time.
> 
> I mean this as no attack on you what so ever


i'm trying already


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## Guest (Sep 24, 2004)

what people rarelyseem to see is that i am presenting my opinions as fact, and so is hackskii and winger, are you going to tell them that i am technically as right as they are if "there is no right and wrong"?

there no "rubbing up" in this dude, none intended anyways.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

I guess that you missed my point.

So I will ask questions and look for the answer.

Do thick blocky abs look good?

Lifting heavy in abs will get them stronger but will they look better?

Only one of the articles you posted refrenced to using weighted ab work. Nice article how he refrenced fast twitch muscle in the abs (first I have heard of that) but if this is the case then using weight and low reps for abs will certainly make big abs which in turn will make the waist look bigger.

Add a layer of fat (hiding the abs) and your waist will look really big, just like a fat guy.

This is why I recomend doing reps for abs.

Now if you want a big strong stomach then by all means use weight.

But a small waist looks better on a fit body than thick waist any day in my opinion.


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## Guest (Sep 24, 2004)

this is aboput the one and only time i have ever said this on a forum:

each to thier own.

*shudder*


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

At least answer the question.

Do you like the look of big blocky abs?

***laugh****

****  ****


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## Guest (Sep 24, 2004)

actually yeah i do. i like the look of power. i hate all this oiled up, shoulder to waist ratio crap. (no offence). big traps, big hams, big forarms, big neck, and a midriff you could bouce icebreakers off. yeah.


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## Guest (Sep 24, 2004)

i don't like low BF's either. anythign below 10% looks girly to me. sorry if that offends guys.


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## John (Jun 5, 2004)

leg raise issue was brought up it was " whilst lying down do leg raises, ive done martial arts for years and i can tell you lying on your back doing legs raises is fcuking agony on your lower back so much so that the guys in the class actually said to the instructor " we,d rather not do that anymore", now he wasnt to happy but agreed anyway, with time and experience we learn that some of the things we do arent as beneficial as we first thought, this is true in all things not just sport!

Now my next point James my man we were doing so good for a while, but were slipping back , but im not gonna say anymore on that, i would however like to ask this " why do you constantly feel the need to quote others"?, you appear to know what your talking about so how about leaving out the quotes of the people who actually came up with this stuff, i mean you said earlier just because so many people say it doesnt make it right so perhaps a lot of the stuff your reading isnt as accurate as you may think?, just an opinion.

But seeing as your into quotes i,ll leave on one and to coin another phrase of yours " if your not sure who said it just look it up" " HE WHO CONSTANTLY QUOTES OTHERS HAS NOTHING TO SAY FOR HIMSELF", again just an opinion but i like it . Lets go back to where we were a few days ago it was much nicer .


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## Guest (Sep 24, 2004)

i ahve no idea why you don't lie quoting, thats what the function is there for. its time consumign and hard to reply to several points at once when poeple write big paragraphs like yours above. quoting makes things methodical and easier to read/refer to.

the thigns you are refering to are lying legs raises, in my post i said hanging legs raise.



> i mean you said earlier just because so many people say it doesnt make it right so perhaps a lot of the stuff your reading isnt as accurate as you may think


exactly! your right there. i am ope to anythign that is backed up in some way other than "in my opinion" or "current research suggests". those are cop outs. i use imo a lot, but can always, unless otherwsie stated, back it up.

what do you mean "slipping back" i am fine, i don't dislike you. do you dislike me?


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## GoldenArrow (Mar 30, 2004)

Power Abs!


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## Guest (Sep 24, 2004)

even thats a bit ripped for me. and i don't like the tan or vascularity either. but hell yeah is he in good proportion for a SM.


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## John (Jun 5, 2004)

it takes a lot for me to dislike someone, were cool its all good , i just thought that we were getting all confrontational again, im probably just over sensitive to the last time .


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

James.Titor said:


> http://www.exrx.net/Muscles/SerratusAnterior.html
> 
> i would also be very wary of the advice the guy gave you when he said decline situps use the serratus as a prime mover (i presume thats what you meant by "seratis").


I just said I did 100 decline situps all at once. I never said that I didn't do other things for my seratis.


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## DB (Oct 31, 2003)

James.Titor said:


> what people rarelyseem to see is that i am presenting my opinions as fact, and so is hackskii and winger, are you going to tell them that i am technically as right as they are if "there is no right and wrong"?


Yes you are as right as the twins and they are as correct as arnie and so on, i dont comment on their opinions if i dont agree with them purely as they dont write in an agressive manor.

But we're cool mate no worries, i understand the way u put things across


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Wow, thanks but I would like for people to comment if I am flawed in my thinking.

But thanks and I could not give you any reputatuon points.

Yah John, it was lying leg lifts. I just talked to a friend today (ironicly) and his lower back is jacked and funny thing he told me that he goes to a stretch class and does leg lifts, leg lifts (peddling) and leg lifts where he spreads his legs and crunches where you twist. He said he hurt his back and it took him a year before it caught up with him.

So dont do lying leg lifts as it compresses your spine and you can get injured.

I dont mind if people disagree as long as it is not an attack. I read alot and have an open mind. I love to see new things.

I lift for 20 minutes a day 5 days a week and I am getting stronger and bigger. With that little amount of time, I dont think I am doing too bad. I dont train for a living nor do I make my money doing so. I enjoy helping all I can and if someone wanted to pay me I would not train them. Its free or nothing.

Thanks guys for the complaments and you are a great bunch of Lads.

Cheers Mates.


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## John (Jun 5, 2004)

do so many ab exercises lifting legs n twisting, doing circular movements,lol half the time i went home in more pain from ab work than i did sparring for 20mins.


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

That 20 minutes could have been better time spent doing other things. Once again I dont work abs but my abs get worked when I train. Why would I build up my abs and tape bigger. Say I had sloaping shoulders do I train the sh1t out of my traps?...........fcuk no. Yes I am a body builder. Yes I train for strength. Yes I like to train heavy. Core this core that. Fcuk the core and go for looks. All the heavy squats and deads will give you a big waist. Why make it bigger?

There is this very pretty and very fit girl that goes to the river. She is a paloties instructor and aerobics instructor. She talks about the core muscles. She is very lean. Ripped in fact. When you look at her body she has great abs and no body fat. The problem is the waist looks big, no taper. She looks like a boy.............easy Jimmy..........lol. It looks good, but dosn't look good. I want a woman with curves. I want the smallest waist that I can have and still be strong. One out of two aint bad.............lol


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## skizxi (Sep 16, 2004)

what about spliting your ab wk up.

day 1: upper abs

day 2: lower abs

day 3: obliques

do you think this will wk better than training all 3 in 1 day. come on james.titor, you seen to know the s**t.


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## John (Jun 5, 2004)

no disputing that .


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## Guest (Sep 25, 2004)

skizxi said:


> what about spliting your ab wk up.
> 
> day 1: upper abs
> 
> ...


it would work much much better. though i still perfer to train more like this:

1. obiliques and multifidi (side bends/tgu's and barbell ab rolls)

2. lower abs+hip flexors (hanging legs raise and weighted decline situps)

3. deadlift antagionists (standing ab pulldowns)


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Obliques will give you a wide waist.

Now that just dont look good to me. Maybe low % body fat but a big bulky set of abs and obliques will make you look fat in a shirt.


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## Guest (Sep 26, 2004)

i disagree. ner ner, ner ner ner


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

lol, now your learning.


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## PikeKing (Sep 19, 2004)

hackskii said:


> I dont think abs have alot of type 2 muscle fibers in them unlike calves. So why go heavy in them anyways.


Abs are 50%+ fast twitch


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## Guest (Sep 28, 2004)

YEY

pikeking is here! this guy knows his sh1t.


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## PikeKing (Sep 19, 2004)

hackskii said:


> fundementals of physiology?
> 
> He did say that leg lifts were not good for the lower back and should be avoided. I thought that was interesting but he trains athletes and is a sports chiropractor and he does know his stuff.


this is very true, I've test 2-3 people in the last 3 years who are actually strong enough in the core to do them


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