# Using the least gear for the best gains - Jordan Peters.



## 66983 (May 30, 2016)




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## JakobJuice (Nov 15, 2017)

subscribed to his site since I like him and his team/guys a lot.

But I call a lot of it just bullshit. especially the low dosages he and his guys are taking. I kinda get his approach since they're in a responsible position cuz a lot of people would be like "okay, if jordan says 2g test with 800mg Tren-E and 1g EQ is fine I'll just do it".

His Cycle approach for amateurs is also quite questionable since this could only potentially work in a perfect enviroment where everything and anything you inject is always 100% accurat dose. and let's be honest. It's not. You'll always have this one batch of tren which gives you more of a kick at 350mg etc. compared to your last cycle.


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## Kiki92 (Jun 3, 2018)

JakobJuice said:


> subscribed to his site since I like him and his team/guys a lot.
> 
> But I call a lot of it just bullshit. especially the low dosages he and his guys are taking. I kinda get his approach since they're in a responsible position cuz a lot of people would be like "okay, if jordan says 2g test with 800mg Tren-E and 1g EQ is fine I'll just do it".
> 
> His Cycle approach for amateurs is also quite questionable since this could only potentially work in a perfect enviroment where everything and anything you inject is always 100% accurat dose. and let's be honest. It's not. You'll always have this one batch of tren which gives you more of a kick at 350mg etc. compared to your last cycle.


 His cycle advice for amateurs is exactly that FOR AMATEURS.... This is the problem no one trust their gear anymore so they are pinning double because it "might" be underdosed and this is what's causing the health problems mental and physical If I didn't think my gear was dosed properly or even real I wouldn't do it it's as simple as that. It's goes back to trust your source or just stop injecting something your not sure about.


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## warsteiner (Jul 15, 2013)

Interesting video, thanks for posting.


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## Jordan08 (Feb 17, 2014)

JakobJuice said:


> subscribed to his site since I like him and his team/guys a lot.
> 
> But I call a lot of it just bullshit. especially the low dosages he and his guys are taking. I kinda get his approach since they're in a responsible position cuz a lot of people would be like "okay, if jordan says 2g test with 800mg Tren-E and 1g EQ is fine I'll just do it".
> 
> His Cycle approach for amateurs is also quite questionable since this could only potentially work in a perfect enviroment where everything and *anything you inject is always 100% accurat dose. and let's be honest.* It's not. You'll always have this one batch of tren which gives you more of a kick at 350mg etc. compared to your last cycle.


 That's where the young or newbie goes wrong. Just keep increasing the dosage if not getting the appropriate results. I wish they should think more about how good it would be if done more rep rather than one more ml.


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## hardnfast (Jan 29, 2017)

Geezer is puffing out his arse just sat in his living room talking! Can't be healthy surely.


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## Fongtu (Apr 13, 2018)

300lb at 5ft 5 probably isn't healthy for anyone, but the guy knows what he is talking about and gives sensible information on all aspects of bodybuilding,

I honestly can't see why people find it impossible to believe that you can do well without injection 10g of test, if you need to push anabolics up that high to see good gains and changes then you clearly don't have every other aspect dialed in


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## Deltz123 (Oct 8, 2017)

I wonder if he used this Same approach.

can Someone give an example what is running? I once saw him stating that he never goes over 400mg of test.

once saw him claiming 300 test 600 primo...

only saw it on his instagram so


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## Fongtu (Apr 13, 2018)

His last off season cycle was

350 test
700 npp
1400 primo

Current prep cycle is

700 test prop, tren ace, mast p / week


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## Robbie (Dec 31, 2007)

Deltz123 said:


> I wonder if he used this Same approach.
> 
> can Someone give an example what is running? I once saw him stating that he never goes over 400mg of test.
> 
> ...


 Currently 700 test prop, 700 mast and 700 tren ace. Considering the amount of muscle tissue he carries that's not silly amounts. There was a guy in my gym doing a physique show running the same amounts...

He's posted before about how high he has gone in the past but believes he could have got the same results with less (and much less side effects).


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## Robbie (Dec 31, 2007)

Fongtu said:


> His last off season cycle was
> 
> 350 test
> 700 npp
> ...


 Ha, you beat me by seconds.


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## Mayzini (May 18, 2016)

I subscribe not just for him but you have several pro logs, luke sandoe, james hollingshead, sas herati, all being open in discussion about their training diet, and use. I think many on here like other shave this huge belief you have to be taken huge amounts to get huge. yes the amounts increase to the average user, but they are no where near the levels a lot think. to be honest the larger massive doses are often used by the powerlifting community more as far as I am aware due to the strength gains but I dont have a lot of knowledge of that area.


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## Deltz123 (Oct 8, 2017)

Everyone seems to have forgotten the 10 grams + that Dallas took  he isn't/ wasn't (rip) the only one doing high doses.

don't get me wrong, not saying they are all doing that but the big size mf'er aren't running anything mild


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## Big Ian (Jul 19, 2005)

Omg I couldn't watch that, was stressing me out with his breathing! Had to stop watching after about 30 seconds. He talks like he's a 90 yr old with lung cancer on his death bed! How on earth can he train when he gets out of breath talking!


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## S123 (Jun 14, 2013)

Look at what Dallas is taking, all these guys are talking out of their ass nobody walks around 300lbs at that high on 500mg of test you can bet your ass this dude is on everything he can get his hands on


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## Fongtu (Apr 13, 2018)

What Dallas 'was' taking, just because he was on such high amounts of drugs means everyone else at that size must be too?

I literally just posted his off season cycle which had 700NPP and 1400Primo, not small doses no, but nothing ridiculous for his size, he keeps his test low because he prefers it low.


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## Roidrage90 (Jul 30, 2016)

Fongtu said:


> What Dallas 'was' taking, just because he was on such high amounts of drugs means everyone else at that size must be too?
> 
> I literally just posted his off season cycle which had 700NPP and 1400Primo, not small doses no, but nothing ridiculous for his size, he keeps his test low because he prefers it low.


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## Deltz123 (Oct 8, 2017)

Roidrage90 said:


>


 This man! Times 100


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## need2bodybuild (May 11, 2011)

The thing some don't seem to realise is that someone who lives, breaths and is intensely passionate about the lifestyle can do very well with a conservative approach and sensible progression in regards to drug use....

Most guys (and I'm not saying I'm perfect coz I'm not) like to focus faaarr too much on drug use and nowhere near enough on diet and training....it's easy to stick more juice in your delt but it takes a bit more to log workouts, progress each week , spend hours a week in the kitchen ..

That's the difference, take all the gear in the world , if you haven't got every aspect dialled in then the guy I mentioned above will most likely surpass you on much a smaller drug intake..

Seems almost hard to believe for some but it's the truth.


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## Deltz123 (Oct 8, 2017)

need2bodybuild said:


> The thing some don't seem to realise is that someone who lives, breaths and is intensely passionate about the lifestyle can do very well with a conservative approach and sensible progression in regards to drug use....
> 
> Most guys (and I'm not saying I'm perfect coz I'm not) like to focus faaarr too much on drug use and nowhere near enough on diet and training....it's easy to stick more juice in your delt but it takes a bit more to log workouts, progress each week , spend hours a week in the kitchen ..
> 
> ...


 A lot of people live and breaths bodybuilding and nailing there diet and training


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## Kiki92 (Jun 3, 2018)

Deltz123 said:


> Everyone seems to have forgotten the 10 grams + that Dallas took  he isn't/ wasn't (rip) the only one doing high doses.
> 
> don't get me wrong, not saying they are all doing that but the big size mf'er aren't running anything mild


 Yeah but you can bet they didn't start on these doses they have got to that level because they do it as a profession for a living and it's common knowledge that genetics pay a big part in this sport you can do all the drugs in the world and you won't look like Dallas , that being said he's not prescribing doses for Dallas or any pro for that matter it clearly states cycles 1-2. Most pro are taking loads of SEO also and you don't see him prescribing that either his approach to cycling is to get the most out of as little so when it comes to having to push the envelope you have movement and options to many people jump straight in at a gram of every compound hit a wall and have no where to go.

Its a simple approach don't burn all your bridges on your first trip down the anabolic route.


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## need2bodybuild (May 11, 2011)

Deltz123 said:


> A lot of people live and breaths bodybuilding and nailing there diet and training


 Very true mate...


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## Robbie (Dec 31, 2007)

Deltz123 said:


> A lot of people live and breaths bodybuilding and nailing there diet and training


 But lack the genetics of Jordan, Luke, Sas etc...


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## swole troll (Apr 15, 2015)

For the most part (particularly training) his info is spot on

However 300mg for a first and 350mg for a second cycle isn't worth the shutdown

Might work for hyper responding midgets like JP but most people that isn't going to be worth the shutdown, subsequent recovery and loss of muscle mass during this time

350mg for your first cycle in the way of 50mg anavar a day is a good first

500mg test is a good second

Make the shutdown worth it


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## Deltz123 (Oct 8, 2017)

Robbie said:


> But lack the genetics of Jordan, Luke, Sas etc...


 Or the balls to push the gear


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## Fongtu (Apr 13, 2018)

I believe what they say they are taking, all have admitted to pushing the drugs up to high levels, all have admitted it made them feel like s**t and have done just as well on a more conservative dose. Not sure what is so hard to believe about it, maybe people just like to think the only reason they dont look like JP etc is because they havent took crazy high doses of gear.


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## 18650 (May 4, 2017)

Fongtu said:


> 300lb at 5ft 5 probably isn't healthy for anyone, but the guy knows what he is talking about and gives sensible information on all aspects of bodybuilding,
> 
> I honestly can't see why people find it impossible to believe that you can do well without injection 10g of test, if you need to push anabolics up that high to see good gains and changes then you clearly don't have every other aspect dialed in


 Tell that to Bill Kazmaier who stated he never considered being on cycle unless he was running at least 4g of test.

Kaz was strong as f**k & jacked beyond belief!


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## need2bodybuild (May 11, 2011)

swole troll said:


> 350mg for your first cycle in the way of 50mg anavar a day is a good first
> 
> 500mg test is a good second


 Exactly what my first two cycles were lol


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## need2bodybuild (May 11, 2011)

Fongtu said:


> I believe what they say they are taking, all have admitted to pushing the drugs up to high levels, all have admitted it made them feel like s**t and have done just as well on a more conservative dose. Not sure what is so hard to believe about it, maybe people just like to think the only reason they dont look like JP etc is because they havent took crazy high doses of gear.


 This is exactly it ....takes a hell of a lot more to adhere to other aspects so instead a lot think they can just up the dose and it'll make up for their poor efforts lol...anyone can do that but sadly it's not going to work.


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## DC1 (May 5, 2014)

I am coached by JP. He does not advocate high doses IME.

His focus is on training intensity, progressive overload and increasing food all before increasing the drugs.

People would be surprised just how far they can take their physique just by nailing the basics and training hard.

I see almost no one training a max or near max effort in any of the gyms I visit.


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## Huntingground (Jan 10, 2010)

JP has been around the forums for a long time, he was benching 200+ at an early age but was using fookin monster cycles of AAS, Slin and GH. Now he has the mass, then it isn't hard to retain or polish that mass drug-wise. He was associated with JW and Pscarb for a while and I heard Paul was concerned about the level of gear going in.

Anybody who is stating that you can get to his BW at his BF at his height on very low dosages haven't a clue what they are talking about. Of course, he is in a responsible position now so spouts this bullshit.

Jordan is 28 (I think) looks 50 facially and cannot talk without sounding as though he is gasping for air. One can make their own assumptions on the healthiness of his lifestyle and cycle history.


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## Testdecadbol (Oct 7, 2017)

Ppl think more dose = more size.

When really it doesnt.

It means more sides.

Only thing exception is gh/slin.

500mg vs 2g isnt much different, just water/tempory size and more sides.


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## swole troll (Apr 15, 2015)

Testdecadbol said:


> Ppl think more dose = more size.
> 
> When really it doesnt.
> 
> ...


 Theres a point of diminished return but I completely disagree with the overall message.

If you arnt stronger and bigger on 500mg test, 500mg tren and 1g eq vs 500mg test with all other variables even then your dealer is selling you salad dressing


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## ishadow (Sep 13, 2017)

If some is good, more must be better!!

*Goes on eBay and ordered 100x 5ml barrels*


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## 18650 (May 4, 2017)

swole troll said:


> Theres a point of diminished return but I completely disagree with the overall message.
> 
> If you arnt stronger and bigger on 500mg test, 500mg tren and 1g eq vs 500mg test with all other variables even then your dealer is selling you salad dressing


 That was a genuinely funny reply, first time I've ever had a giggle from this forum.

You're a good fella to have on here.


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## musclebubble (Jul 2, 2011)

Sparkey said:


>


 I watched 2 min of this around 2 months ago. First thing that struck was this guy has trouble breathing. Now watching it again, i've just realized he's got some powder on his t s**t. Quite a bit.


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## JackTorrance (Apr 6, 2016)

If less is more, just think how much more MORE will be.


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## Oldnewb (Jul 24, 2014)

I listened to a British pro talk about his low dose approach and also how he stays lean year around several years ago. He did admit when away from the crowd that isn't how he built his size though.

Pushing the body weight right up alongside the test, Deca,anadrol, etc (as opposed to the now touted primo) is where the big progress was made.

Also if you can eat enough, like for like, the more gear you take, the bigger you'll get.


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## 66983 (May 30, 2016)

JackTorrance said:


> If less is more, just think how much more MORE will be.


 I know a local guy who owns a gym and is at National level, he had to go into hospital for a routine operation.

Whilst under the anesthetic he had a massive heart attack, long story short they managed to save him, but told him he was very lucky.

Now these medical professionals obviously aren't stupid and knew he must have been taking A.A.S for years so asked him to write down everything he had taken in the last few weeks.

The list he produced was for just the week prior and it added up to £2000 - that's just a weeks worth!

That's what 'how much more is'.


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## hardnfast (Jan 29, 2017)

Sparkey said:


> The list he produced was for just the week prior and it added up to £2000 - that's just a weeks worth!


 what on earth was he taking for it to cost 2 grand a week?


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## 66983 (May 30, 2016)

hardnfast said:


> what on earth was he taking for it to cost 2 grand a week?


 Pharma growth, Increlex as well and everything else.

Increlex is over a grand a vial!


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## hardnfast (Jan 29, 2017)

Sparkey said:


> Pharma growth, Increlex as well and everything else.
> 
> Increlex is over a grand a vial!
> 
> View attachment 158835


 Wow, that is pretty extreme!


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## Robbie (Dec 31, 2007)

musclebubble said:


> I watched 2 min of this around 2 months ago. First thing that struck was this guy has trouble breathing. Now watching it again, i've just realized he's got some powder on his t s**t. Quite a bit.


 If you mean the bit over his chest, that's the logo on his tshirt...


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## Smitch (Dec 29, 2008)

Huntingground said:


> JP has been around the forums for a long time, he was benching 200+ at an early age but was using fookin monster cycles of AAS, Slin and GH. Now he has the mass, then it isn't hard to retain or polish that mass drug-wise. He was associated with JW and Pscarb for a while and I heard Paul was concerned about the level of gear going in.
> 
> Anybody who is stating that you can get to his BW at his BF at his height on very low dosages haven't a clue what they are talking about. Of course, he is in a responsible position now so spouts this bullshit.
> 
> Jordan is 28 (I think) looks 50 facially and cannot talk without sounding as though he is gasping for air. One can make their own assumptions on the healthiness of his lifestyle and cycle history.


 This.

Funny how once they're big they no longer advocate massive cycles.

Anyone on here got proper massive taking low doses?

Nah, didn't think so :lol:


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## Robbie (Dec 31, 2007)

Smitch said:


> This.
> 
> Funny how once they're big they no longer advocate massive cycles.
> 
> ...


 Do you not think if it took lots of drugs to get to 240lbs, that you'd then be able to push up further with less? JP is still adding tissue every year


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## Smitch (Dec 29, 2008)

Robbie said:


> Do you not think if it took lots of drugs to get to 240lbs, that you'd then be able to push up further with less? JP is still adding tissue every year


 Once you've got the initial mass then yes I think it's easier to add to it than it was to build it in the first place.


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## swole troll (Apr 15, 2015)

Smitch said:


> This.
> 
> Funny how once they're big they no longer advocate massive cycles.
> 
> ...


 this

so many do this

'i only use 400mg test and 400mg deca and look at size of me'
yep but you used grams of gear among other things to get there

a car uses more fuel per minute getting up to 70mph than it does cruising at 70mph


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## Oldnewb (Jul 24, 2014)

Will the next thing be he cruises on 150mg every week or 2?

he admitted to losing size on a cruise of 400mg per week of test so hows he adding tissue and keeping on low doses?

he has a massive following and is raking in a good income of his site, I fully understand why he would preach low doses, the talk of "I used to bladder it but now had an epiphany and only use low doses" just adds weight to his preaching of low doses but still come on now. Turn it in mate.


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## Smitch (Dec 29, 2008)

Oldnewb said:


> Will the next thing be he cruises on 150mg every week or 2?
> 
> he admitted to losing size on a cruise of 400mg per week of test so hows he adding tissue and keeping on low doses?
> 
> he has a massive following and is raking in a good income of his site, I fully understand why he would preach low doses, the talk of "I used to bladder it but now had an epiphany and only use low doses" just adds weight to his preaching of low doses but still come on now. Turn it in mate.


 Yeah, and Eddie Hall just uses creatine :lol:


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## Oioi (Jul 25, 2016)

Smitch said:


> Yeah, and Eddie Hall just uses creatine :lol:


 The fat shyte kept deleting my comments when he was advertising "natural test boosters" on strength asylum's Facebook


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## Smitch (Dec 29, 2008)

Oioi said:


> The fat shyte kept deleting my comments when he was advertising "natural test boosters" on strength asylum's Facebook


 It's a joke isn't it, "take this snake oil and be like me" :lol:


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## Oldnewb (Jul 24, 2014)

Smitch said:


> Yeah, and Eddie Hall just uses creatine :lol:


 Yeah mate but he uses 10g per serving instead of 5g like us mortals.


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## feelinfine (Sep 26, 2017)

Of course these guys downplay how much gear they use. Remember back when Dallas McCarver's autopsy revealed he was on 10g+ of test per week.

These guys are like those fake natties on youtube but instead of downright denying they use gear, they downplay how much they use.


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## iamyou (Oct 29, 2012)

Sparkey said:


> I know a local guy who owns a gym and is at National level, he had to go into hospital for a routine operation.
> 
> Whilst under the anesthetic he had a massive heart attack, long story short they managed to save him, but told him he was very lucky.
> 
> ...


 I know someone who also died on the op table for a sec because of heart complications. They had to bring him back. Scared him right off of AAS. Young guy.


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## Testdecadbol (Oct 7, 2017)

swole troll said:


> Theres a point of diminished return but I completely disagree with the overall message.
> 
> If you arnt stronger and bigger on 500mg test, 500mg tren and 1g eq vs 500mg test with all other variables even then your dealer is selling you salad dressing


 Youve missed my point.

I hope for your health one day u figure out how to make gain with low doses. I used to be a high dose idiot, then i found out it isnt needed.

Good luck my friend.


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## Oldnewb (Jul 24, 2014)

Testdecadbol said:


> Youve missed my point.
> 
> I hope for your health one day u figure out how to make gain with low doses. I used to be a high dose idiot, then i found out it isnt needed.
> 
> Good luck my friend.


 The reality is though, I understand wanting to balance health and achieve goals, it's a sensible approach but if your goal is to increase size and or strength, the higher you push doses, if you can incorporate the food, rest and training to take advantage of the extra gear, will result in more size and strength.

If you are happy to find a happy medium then no doubt that's a healthier approach but very little of this lifestyle can ever be described as healthy!

@swole troll


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## Testdecadbol (Oct 7, 2017)

Oldnewb said:


> The reality is though, I understand wanting to balance health and achieve goals, it's a sensible approach but if your goal is to increase size and or strength, the higher you push doses, if you can incorporate the food, rest and training to take advantage of the extra gear, will result in more size and strength.
> 
> If you are happy to find a happy medium then no doubt that's a healthier approach but very little of this lifestyle can ever be described as healthy!
> 
> @swole troll


 See this is the issue - its all about food.

I cba having this discussion again so last time ill say it :

Gear raises ability to use food and protien synthesis.but not by as much as people think. So a small dose will do almost the same as a massive one (not accounting for temporary water and glyco).

The real determinijg factor is food and training.

But no one wants to hear it.

Only exception to the above is:

1. Gh and slin

2. When u need to throw certain things in for short term cosmetic effect (eg halo pre contest)

Right im done now boys! You do you!


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## 18650 (May 4, 2017)

Testdecadbol said:


> See this is the issue - its all about food.
> 
> I cba having this discussion again so last time ill say it :
> 
> ...


 The reality is =

1) Drugs

2) Food

3) Rest

4) Training

In that order of importance, that's the unfortunate truth!


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## Matt6210 (Feb 15, 2018)

18650 said:


> The reality is =
> 
> 1) Drugs
> 
> ...


 Maybe switch drugs and food round... take all the steroids you want if you ain't eating the calories you ain't growing.


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## swole troll (Apr 15, 2015)

Name is testdecadbol

Advocates 500mg only

Suggesting everything else is water and sides

How does your test deca and dbol cycle break down, 200mg test, 200mg deca per week and 15mg dbol ED?

Being conservative is a great focus but to say anything above an arbitrary number is sides and water for ALL people is ridiculous


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## 18650 (May 4, 2017)

Matt6210 said:


> Maybe switch drugs and food round... take all the steroids you want if you ain't eating the calories you ain't growing.


 I understand what you're saying, however, if you're not hitting your macro's then you shouldn't even debate using drugs!

With that being said, I stand by my original statement.


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## Matt6210 (Feb 15, 2018)

18650 said:


> I understand what you're saying, however, if you're not hitting your macro's then you shouldn't even debate using drugs!
> 
> With that being said, I stand by my original statement.


 But you could do something without steroids, you could do nothing without food?


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## 18650 (May 4, 2017)

Matt6210 said:


> But you could do something without steroids, you could do nothing without food?


 Very true my friend.


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## 1bigpete (Oct 11, 2017)

Get that man some freak'n oxygen! He sounds like he's about to pass out! :whistling:


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## SlinMeister (Feb 21, 2017)

Fongtu said:


> His last off season cycle was
> 
> 350 test
> 700 npp
> ...


 This is utter bullshit... Do you really think that he can maintain his size on those low doses.... Come onnnn!

These ifbb pros are just a bunch of liars.

They can't tell the truth!! They take muuuch more than this!!!


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## Oldnewb (Jul 24, 2014)

SlinMeister said:


> This is utter bullshit... Do you really think that he can maintain his size on those low doses.... Come onnnn!
> 
> These ifbb pros are just a bunch of liars.
> 
> They can't tell the truth!! They take muuuch more than this!!!


 Probably more like his most recent cruise dosage!


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## Testdecadbol (Oct 7, 2017)

swole troll said:


> Name is testdecadbol
> 
> Advocates 500mg only
> 
> ...


 That a great cycle u listed out! And if you could train really well and have eveything dialled that will do the same as throwing gram after gram at yourself.

Exception being gh/slin.


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## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

18650 said:


> I understand what you're saying, however, if you're not hitting your macro's then you shouldn't even debate using drugs!
> 
> With that being said, I stand by my original statement.


 Fvxk macros.... It's about calories. The ratio of macros makes little difference..... The amount of calories you consume does


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## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

@18650

Lee Priest doesn't worry about hitting macros.... So he hasn't any business using gear? Lol


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## 18650 (May 4, 2017)

FelonE said:


> Fvxk macros.... It's about calories. The ratio of macros makes little difference..... The amount of calories you consume does


 Agree 100%. I should have written kcals instead of macros.


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## 18650 (May 4, 2017)

FelonE said:


> @18650
> 
> Lee Priest doesn't worry about hitting macros.... So he hasn't any business using gear? Lol


 Haha, can't argue with your logic.


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## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

18650 said:


> Haha, can't argue with your logic.


 He says in that video that most of the people who say they diet on iifym look like sh1t

There was a member called Tommybananas on here who constantly used to preach iifym..........and he looked like sh1t haha


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## Sasnak (Oct 11, 2016)

FelonE said:


> There was a member called Tommybananas


 Come on @TommyBananas Felon just called you out!

Best gtfih and sort him out


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## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

Sasnak said:


> Come on @TommyBananas Felon just called you out!
> 
> Best gtfih and sort him out


 Sort me out?............Sort his fvcking diet out


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## simonboyle (Aug 5, 2013)

Kiki92 said:


> His cycle advice for amateurs is exactly that FOR AMATEURS.... This is the problem no one trust their gear anymore so they are pinning double because it "might" be underdosed and this is what's causing the health problems mental and physical If I didn't think my gear was dosed properly or even real I wouldn't do it it's as simple as that. It's goes back to trust your source or just stop injecting something your not sure about.


 And act like if it is under dosed, that say 300mg of tren (as opposed to the 400mg you think you're pinning) does jack s**t.

It's a tool to enhance recovery and training, not do the work for you.

I'm old enough to be able to comment on doses over the years. 10 years ago people were not using 3g of gear a week. 10 years before that it was even less. For the average user they would be better returning to that.

Look at a top physique from say 15 years ago. I know chubby gym users that use more than that 15 year old physique would be using. And they're no where near it.

The drugs don't do the job for you.


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## simonboyle (Aug 5, 2013)

Fongtu said:


> 300lb at 5ft 5 probably isn't healthy for anyone, but the guy knows what he is talking about and gives sensible information on all aspects of bodybuilding,
> 
> I honestly can't see why people find it impossible to believe that you can do well without injection 10g of test, if you need to push anabolics up that high to see good gains and changes then you clearly don't have every other aspect dialed in


 This


----------



## simonboyle (Aug 5, 2013)

Robbie said:


> Currently 700 test prop, 700 mast and 700 tren ace. Considering the amount of muscle tissue he carries that's not silly amounts. There was a guy in my gym doing a physique show running the same amounts...
> 
> He's posted before about how high he has gone in the past but believes he could have got the same results with less (and much less side effects).


 Hard work and consistency account for a lot.

I know nothing about this guy, but it's entirely possible.

Not even slightly unbelievable.

2.1g of gear and people would question that this is achievable?

They need to sort their diet and training.

Too many dumb f**ks like Boston Lloyd saying otherwise.


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## EdinDeadlift (Mar 17, 2018)

simonboyle said:


> Hard work and consistency account for a lot.
> 
> I know nothing about this guy, but it's entirely possible.
> 
> ...


 Reminded me of a post by brandon lilly

https://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/index.php?app=core&module=system&controller=embed&url=https://www.reddit.com/r/powerlifting/comments/44wvgh/serious_post_about_drug_use/?utm_source=amp%26utm_medium=comment_header


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## Jordan08 (Feb 17, 2014)

simonboyle said:


> Hard work and consistency account for a lot.
> 
> I know nothing about this guy, but it's entirely possible.
> 
> ...


 We have too many people these days who just put an end to argument by saying this or that kind of physique cant be built on x amount of gear. Why they say that?. Because they themself couldnt do it. Whatever can be the reason; poor genetics or poor execution. I wont mention diet and workout routines coz its the easy part. Dont go far, look at this board. People taking good amount ofgear and majority of them look below average. And then when they see a better physique they start assuming their dosages. People just dont want to analyze what they are doing.


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## swole troll (Apr 15, 2015)

EdinDeadlift said:


> Reminded me of a post by brandon lilly
> 
> https://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/index.php?app=core&module=system&controller=embed&url=https://www.reddit.com/r/powerlifting/comments/44wvgh/serious_post_about_drug_use/?utm_source=amp%26utm_medium=comment_header


 *EDIT - TLDR this is a long post but in large i disagree with these low doses at such levels, just like food and volume, doses of gear NEED to increase at some stage, you can however make a lot of progress with these higher doses and then lower them and maintain a very high level of performance and just claim that all you need is the lower doses whilst omitting the fact you got to that level with higher doses / just lie *

I dont buy it personally, what he is doing is good (looking out for people) but its still largely BS imo unless he is what ive spoken about on here before of guys building their progress, strength, physique with much higher doses and then able to run lower doses to maintain and still get stronger through peaks and dietary adjustments but the bulk of their progress was made during the times on higher doses with these variables tweaked then also

theres a few threads that were floating around from iron dungeon and fitmisc quoted the postings of dan green, chris duffin and a guy who trained closely with stan efferding and the doses are mental!

there isnt the diuretics and fat burners of bodybuilding but the oral abuse and fear of losing strength makes it just as dangerous at the elite level imo

chris duffin listed a crazy cycle *(ill quote Duffin's post on his gear use at the end for TLDR)* and then went on to say when he cruises its worth noting he spends more of the year on anavar than he does off

here's what brandon lily highlighted as a sample cycle in his early introduction of the cube method to those who were trial running it for him

"Weeks 1-6 Testosterone Cypionate: 500-600mg taken 250/300mg on Monday and Thursday Nandrolone Decanoate or Boldenone Undecanoate: 300mg taken 150mg on Monday and Thursday Anavar: 50mg per day

Weeks 7-10 Testosterone Cypionate: 1000-1200mg taken 500/600mg on Monday and Thursday Nandrolone Decanoate or Boldenone Undecanoate: 600mg taken 300mg on Monday and Thursday

14 days out Add 50mg Trenbolone Acetate EOD Add 50mg dianabol a day

This isn't what he ran- but what he recommends people run. In PL it's a lot about training on high anabolics with high volume then switching to androgens near the meet. High dosages don't really need to be ran, just enough to maintain the muscle mass you need for your weight class and enough to get you into the next class and lean you up after a meet. But lots of androgens are often used near the meet. Clint Darden recommends the following for strongmen:

4 weeks high anabolics 150mg test (low enough for dick function) deca/dbol/eq

4 weeks high androgens 500-1500mg test tren/anadrol/halo

4-8 weeks recovery with peptides and PCT In strength sports you can't really run a cycle and get strength, so it's mainly about supporting a high volume of training with very anabolic compounds. You can't make up for shitty training with hormones and running loads doesn't really help that much at all unless you're peaking"

Chris Duffin:

"Well with the dan green thread going I figured I have this saved from when Duffin posted this on the Outlaws forum awhile back. I have to say I was very suprised at the amount of GH and the igf1lr3 Globalge, then again he is very wealthy so why the hell now.

I?m a little hesitant to write up everything for couple reasons. This isn?t for everyone, is not what I recommend, and I?m still experimenting. Much of my performance has been from the sheer amount of work I put in and with messing with the larger dosages this year I don?t have the capacity to train balls out like I used to (although I still train a lot if you follow my logs). HOWEVER my gym, family life, and professional life have all grown so much in the last few years that I simply don?t have the time to make it to the gym as frequently, as long, and I?m usually doing a ton of coaching when I?m there now. So I'm just figuring out how to put all this together and what works best in the end for me.

So a little background and context.
I had deadlifted 4x bw in comp before ever going on.
I set a #4 all-time multi total my first cycle on 4 years ago (and my last multi-ply meet)
I am chasing some very aggressive goals and I have some major issues that are only getting worse. I may only have a few meets left that I can try achieve my goals at before the issues become insurmountable.

Here is some basic info. Sorry I?m not going to lay all this out in an ?how to? approach and there is a lot of detail and timing that is important so don?t try to duplicate without knowledge.

Off season
175-250mg test and maybe some anavar in the 100-120mg range
GH 20iu (pulsed preworkout only 4x a week)
Slin 20iu(Humalog preworkout only but timed to not interfere with GH and combined with special shake of carbs, creatine, amino?s, potassium that is drunken with it and during workout)
IGF1LR3 & PegMGF (alternate between the two immediately postworkout along with herbal Glucose shuttling sups to upregulate after GH and Slin)
GH releasing Peptides taken non training days

With this I can train like crazy and recover from it and if I do the work I can keep the progress rolling like when I?m on cycle. The pulsing approach keeps my blood sugar in control nicely versus the more frequent doses of GH most people do and seem to get better recovery with putting everything around the workout.

Cycle
Last meet 4 weeks ago I was up to the following by the meet
3100mg Test
700mg Mast Prop
700mg NPP
700mg Tren
I only ran two weeks of orals since I have bigger meet next month
2 weeks Winny/Drol @ 100mg each

Currently @ 3 weeks out
I added my GH/Slin/Peptide combo the last 4 weeks on top of everything above
Will be dropping all that in a few days to give my 3 weeks to get weight and bloat in control
3200mg test
1400mg Mast Prop (bumped to 1050 then 1400 over last 4 weeks)
1050mg NPP (just bumped)
700mg Tren
Two weeks ago I added orals (5 weeks out)
120mg Tbol
120mg Var
75mg Winny
3 weeks out (next few days) I will be dropping Var and Winny and adding
1000mcg Methly Tren

Again these dosages are fairly new to me this year. Just trying to see what I can tolerate, what the pros and cons are, and?. I?m all in, I don?t have many more shots at what I want to hit.

Had a liver function Test 3 weeks ago with AST 40 & ALT60. No anti-E or other ancillaries just relying on Masteron and over the counter PES Erase Pro.

My first All-Time raw record set earlier this year was much lower dosed.
Was only an 8 week cycle coming off GH/Slin/Peptide coast cycle.
at end I was at
1500MG Test
1100mg Mast Prop
700mg Tren
700mg NPP
600mg EQ
240mg dbol (180/240 the last weeks only)
120mg Var

one last note.... I probably spend more time on Var than off over the course of a year."


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## EdinDeadlift (Mar 17, 2018)

swole troll said:


> *EDIT - TLDR this is a long post but in large i disagree with these low doses at such levels, just like food and volume, doses of gear NEED to increase at some stage, you can however make a lot of progress with these higher doses and then lower them and maintain a very high level of performance and just claim that all you need is the lower doses whilst omitting the fact you got to that level with higher doses / just lie *
> 
> I dont buy it personally, what he is doing is good (looking out for people) but its still largely BS imo unless he is what ive spoken about on here before of guys building their progress, strength, physique with much higher doses and then able to run lower doses to maintain and still get stronger through peaks and dietary adjustments but the bulk of their progress was made during the times on higher doses with these variables tweaked then also
> 
> ...


 I remember Larry Williams said he cruises on 500mg of test and 150mg of adrol ED.

I think Lilly wanted to say that you should milk all the strength gains you can get from low doses and before you up the dose or add more injectables and orals you should increase calories, water, sleep and rest.


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## S123 (Jun 14, 2013)

swole troll said:


> *EDIT - TLDR this is a long post but in large i disagree with these low doses at such levels, just like food and volume, doses of gear NEED to increase at some stage, you can however make a lot of progress with these higher doses and then lower them and maintain a very high level of performance and just claim that all you need is the lower doses whilst omitting the fact you got to that level with higher doses / just lie *
> 
> I dont buy it personally, what he is doing is good (looking out for people) but its still largely BS imo unless he is what ive spoken about on here before of guys building their progress, strength, physique with much higher doses and then able to run lower doses to maintain and still get stronger through peaks and dietary adjustments but the bulk of their progress was made during the times on higher doses with these variables tweaked then also
> 
> ...


 To all the people who say low doses can build an amazing physique, you arent going over 200 lbs under 5ft 11 at decent bf (6-8%) unless you push the doses


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## arbffgadm100 (Jun 3, 2016)

@swole troll

What qas Dan Green's post about/what was his cycle at the time?

Thanks for posting the above btw.


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## swole troll (Apr 15, 2015)

arbffgadm100 said:


> @swole troll
> 
> What qas Dan Green's post about/what was his cycle at the time?
> 
> Thanks for posting the above btw.


 I can't remember exactly

Pretty sure he runs very high test and EQ iirc (most elite pl run high eq from what I've seen)

I've prob got it linked somewhere

I'll see if I can dig it up


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## feelinfine (Sep 26, 2017)

swole troll said:


> I can't remember exactly
> 
> Pretty sure he runs very high test and EQ iirc (most elite pl run high eq from what I've seen)
> 
> ...


 What does eq do that 19nors can't?


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## swole troll (Apr 15, 2015)

feelinfine said:


> What does eq do that 19nors can't?


 There is something to be said for synergy

One of best cycles I ever ran was 750mg test, 750mg eq and 450mg npp.

I know what you're saying but these guys are taking silly doses

Rather than just run 2g test, 2g deca they might opt for 1g test, 1g mast, 1g eq and 800mg deca

Just as an example


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## feelinfine (Sep 26, 2017)

swole troll said:


> There is something to be said for synergy
> 
> One of best cycles I ever ran was 750mg test, 750mg eq and 450mg npp.
> 
> ...


 I always read that eq is a very mild, if not weak drug. That's why it is recommended to take high doses for long periods of time or so I heard. My question was more along the lines of, if tren and nandrolone are so powerful, why do people take a mild drug like eq? I don't see how it can compare in terms of strength, performance, etc.


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## arbffgadm100 (Jun 3, 2016)

feelinfine said:


> I always read that eq is a very mild, if not weak drug. That's why it is recommended to take high doses for long periods of time or so I heard. My question was more along the lines of, if tren and nandrolone are so powerful, why do people take a mild drug like eq? I don't see how it can compare in terms of strength, performance, etc.


 As above, it's an anabolic with relatively low sides. This allows training at high volumes for longer periods of time with less health risks than eg tren.


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## Oldnewb (Jul 24, 2014)

For some equipoise can cause a substantial increase in appetite which is understandably a positive in powerlifting, whereas tren is quite renowned for knocking appetite for some


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## arbffgadm100 (Jun 3, 2016)

Testdecadbol said:


> See this is the issue - its all about food.
> 
> I cba having this discussion again so last time ill say it :
> 
> ...


 How, in yoir opinion, does GH modify the ability of gear to syntheise more muscle or use more food? Gen question with no hidden agenda. Looking to learn.


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## swole troll (Apr 15, 2015)

feelinfine said:


> I always read that eq is a very mild, if not weak drug. That's why it is recommended to take high doses for long periods of time or so I heard. My question was more along the lines of, if tren and nandrolone are so powerful, why do people take a mild drug like eq? I don't see how it can compare in terms of strength, performance, etc.


 take a gram of tren and youll see why other drugs get pushed up and introduced after a certain period of time

increased anabolism and recovery with less sides such as appetite suppression which will hinder growth

if it was just strongest gear or gtfo we'd all take test, tren and anadrol every single cycle

EQ also has the benefit of appetite increase as mentioned by oldnewb

tren is the best thing you can do for your strength and physique (provided you can eat on it) but even so after enough time you will need to increase dosages and as tren gets higher it can get REALLY nasty, even if not just in the way of sides just on your health

there is also something to be said for cycling compounds

people talk about hitting walls but really aside from health, blasting year round is the best route for you to be the best you can be but of course (most) people arnt that stupid 
most people bring up myostatin and cortisol which is real but i personally have worked around road bumps

as an example you could

continual surplus of calories

10 weeks test and eq
10 weeks test and deca
8 weeks test and tren ace
8 weeks test, npp and tren ace
6 weeks test, npp and tren ace and dbol

periodize your training and focus on volume then peak for strength, deload, drop back to a volume block

juggle intensity, frequency and volume

i mean your blood markers are going to be savaged but youll keep growing and getting stronger if the surplus is continual

if you ran tren just for 42 weeks straight youd plateau much quicker

and finally as i mentioned earlier its a way of increasing drugs without just hammering one into the ground and having sides out the ass


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## swole troll (Apr 15, 2015)

swole troll said:


> I can't remember exactly
> 
> Pretty sure he runs very high test and EQ iirc (most elite pl run high eq from what I've seen)
> 
> ...


 sorry i should have clarified i didnt mean dan green just takes test and eq

he runs those both very high and cycles in other things

i knew what i was saying in my head lol


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## swole troll (Apr 15, 2015)

@arbffgadm100

"Claymore TRAINS with the TOP guys in the world !! lol Stan Efferding is ranked #1 in the world at 275 with a 2,303 RAW total and Eric Spoto is #1 in the bench press with a 722 RAW bench press. We just added Brittany Pryor to the mix she's ranked #2 in the USA with a 1300 RAW total 479.5 sqaut, 292.1 bench and a 529 deadlift...she's pulled 545.5 but they red lighted her yesterday ?? We've trained with *Dan Green* as well Oleskii Omelchenko, the reason i say all of this is because I KNOW WHAT THE f**k I"M TALKING ABOUT !!! what i'm about to say isn't opinion...IT'S FACT !!!

Typical Cycle is something like this:

1000mg of Test (Cyp, Enanthate, Blend)
600-1000mg of Deca
600-1000mg of EQ
Some type of oral (D-bol, Anadrol) if not both

Other drugs used:

Tren is used A LOT !!! 700mg-1500mg (just depends on the lifter)
Halotestin is used as well, anywhere from 3-4 weeks out from a meet dosage is really tricky, some people are super sensitive to this drug.
Test Suspension works very well, 3-4 weeks out from meet as well. (dosage is anywhere from 350mg-700mg a week)
Winstrol frees up SHBG, anywhere from 50mg-100mg daily 2-3 weeks at a time. Maybe like 2 weeks on, 2 weeks off. Keep running it like this for the whole cycle.

Point of the story is it's not that hard, EAT A LOT, train your ass off !!! Get plenty of sleep and be consistent and you'll grow like a weed and be strong as f**k !!!"


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## swole troll (Apr 15, 2015)

bear in mind im quoting proposed cycles of elite level powerlifters

not gym rats

so yes doses are crazy but these are people more advanced in powerlifting than jordan peters is in his sport (jordan peters is not a pro bodybuilder, chris duffin and dan green are both world record holding powerlifters) and again bear in mind jordan peters is about 5'1

hes a sound dude but cant even pronounce aromasin or primo right

his waist is completely blown out to s**t

and he comes in with elephant skin

i think hes decent but nothing to go nuts about, sas heirati and james hollingshead blow him out the water


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## Oldnewb (Jul 24, 2014)

Not aimed at anyone on this thread but it is totally delusional to talk about the elite or even top amateurs using low doses.

Have personal knowledge of a top ten Olympian, genetically gifted to say the least, and his monthly drug bill is unbelievable. In bodybuilding especially, it is pure chemical engineering at that level. It is really eye opening when you listen to the reality of how it is.

So when an amateur who is desperate for a pro card says he's on low doses or has some revelation and now runs lower doses, sadly we call bulls**t on that one sorry.


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## feelinfine (Sep 26, 2017)

swole troll said:


> sorry i should have clarified i didnt mean dan green just takes test and eq
> 
> he runs those both very high and cycles in other things
> 
> i knew what i was saying in my head lol


 Yeah I thought you were saying he was taking eq over 19nors. That's why I asked what is so magical about eq. Everything else you said makes sense.



Oldnewb said:


> Not aimed at anyone on this thread but it is totally delusional to talk about the elite or even top amateurs using low doses.
> 
> Have personal knowledge of a top ten Olympian, genetically gifted to say the least, and his monthly drug bill is unbelievable. In bodybuilding especially, it is pure chemical engineering at that level. It is really eye opening when you listen to the reality of how it is.
> 
> So when an amateur who is desperate for a pro card says he's on low doses or has some revelation and now runs lower doses, sadly we call bulls**t on that one sorry.


 Dallas mccarver's autopsy came back showing he was running 10g+ of test per week along with other anabolics. Just like how fake natties deny touching gear on youtube/instagram, pros deny the amount of gear they use. Pretending they got there with small 500mg test cycles lmao.


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## Oldnewb (Jul 24, 2014)

It's understandable that they play down usage, it's their livelihood and it would be reckless for them to come out and say the amounts they use, especially when they may have very young fans but personally I'd rather they just say nothing then all this 1ml test and 5mg anavar a week bollocks that some of them spout.


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## feelinfine (Sep 26, 2017)

Oldnewb said:


> It's understandable that they play down usage, it's their livelihood and it would be reckless for them to come out and say the amounts they use, especially when they may have very young fans but personally I'd rather they just say nothing then all this 1ml test and 5mg anavar a week bollocks that some of them spout.


 Plus they use stuff most normal lifters will never touch like insulin and hgh. I take what they say about gear usage with a grain of salt because they all downplay it or flat out deny it.

Worse are those delusional people who actually believe them and end up being scammed - buying expensive training/diet programs or snake oil supplements these guys are pushing.

Overall this industry is so filthy. I love lifting but hate being associated with this culture because of all the ugliness.


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## Testdecadbol (Oct 7, 2017)

arbffgadm100 said:


> How, in yoir opinion, does GH modify the ability of gear to syntheise more muscle or use more food? Gen question with no hidden agenda. Looking to learn.


 Its not just the gh. Its the slin too.

You pump anabolics in high dose with gh and slin. This whole blasting grams of gear for more gains is a meme.

But when u do high dose gear with gh and slin its lights out.

Slin = most anabolic hormone there is but adds fat easy in cal surplus.

Gh = blocks fat from being add by the slin and excess cals.

Use high doses with gh/slin bc they completely change what possible in terms of growth and anti catabolism.

But without them in the mix theres very little benefit running over 500mg a week(excluding pre stage when orals are candy).


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## stewedw (Jun 15, 2015)

Just been reading through this thread (exciting Saturday night eh?)

I know a lot of the names mentioned, but surely to god someone that runs 2g test with 1g mast 1g npp etc is gonna be royaly fkd inside? Your heart liver and kidneys must take a pounding?

If you ran a cycle like that for sixteen weeks, cruised for ten then ran it again and swapped the npp for tren then repeated for a total of four blasts (would be just under two years of b&c) then I'd imagine you'd look great but f**k me you'd be shaving off years of your life?


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## Oldnewb (Jul 24, 2014)

stewedw said:


> Just been reading through this thread (exciting Saturday night eh?)
> 
> I know a lot of the names mentioned, but surely to god someone that runs 2g test with 1g mast 1g npp etc is gonna be royaly fkd inside? Your heart liver and kidneys must take a pounding?
> 
> If you ran a cuke like that for sixteen weeks, cruised for ten then ran it again and swapped the npp for tren then repeated for a total of four blasts (would be just under two years of b&c) then I'd imagine you'd look great but f**k me you'd be shaving off years of your life?


 Think it would depend on blood tests and blood pressure. Keep both in check and that's half the battle

Never gonna be healthy tho is it!


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## maccertimur (Jul 8, 2018)

stewedw said:


> Just been reading through this thread (exciting Saturday night eh?)
> 
> I know a lot of the names mentioned, but surely to god someone that runs 2g test with 1g mast 1g npp etc is gonna be royaly fkd inside? Your heart liver and kidneys must take a pounding?
> 
> If you ran a cycle like that for sixteen weeks, cruised for ten then ran it again and swapped the npp for tren then repeated for a total of four blasts (would be just under two years of b&c) then I'd imagine you'd look great but f**k me you'd be shaving off years of your life?


 There is no point to use those dosages that you mentioned unless you compete in shows like Olympia.


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## Deltz123 (Oct 8, 2017)

maccertimur said:


> There is no point to use those dosages that you mentioned unless you compete in shows like Olympia.


 I think you'd be surprised what it takes to compete in the open at mister olympia. Of course they won't tell you cause that would be immoral 

im active on a us based forum, a lot of people there are running tren 6months, a year, Some even two years without a break. These guys are big but not olympia big


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## Smitch (Dec 29, 2008)

stewedw said:


> Just been reading through this thread (exciting Saturday night eh?)
> 
> I know a lot of the names mentioned, but surely to god someone that runs 2g test with 1g mast 1g npp etc is gonna be royaly fkd inside? Your heart liver and kidneys must take a pounding?
> 
> If you ran a cycle like that for sixteen weeks, cruised for ten then ran it again and swapped the npp for tren then repeated for a total of four blasts (would be just under two years of b&c) then I'd imagine you'd look great but f**k me you'd be shaving off years of your life?


 Mate of mine ran a gram of tren a week for 18 months solid alongside all his other crap, was a few grams a week plus orals, GH, slin etc.


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## Deltz123 (Oct 8, 2017)

Smitch said:


> Mate of mine ran a gram of tren a week for 18 months solid alongside all his other crap, was a few grams a week plus orals, GH, slin etc.


 In before 'are you buddies with phil heath??'


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## swole troll (Apr 15, 2015)

stewedw said:


> Just been reading through this thread (exciting Saturday night eh?)
> 
> I know a lot of the names mentioned, but surely to god someone that runs 2g test with 1g mast 1g npp etc is gonna be royaly fkd inside? Your heart liver and kidneys must take a pounding?
> 
> If you ran a cycle like that for sixteen weeks, cruised for ten then ran it again and swapped the npp for tren then repeated for a total of four blasts (would be just under two years of b&c) then I'd imagine you'd look great but f**k me you'd be shaving off years of your life?


 im firmly of the belief if you regularly use orals and tren (multiple cycles per year) you are likely shaving years off your life.

and if one c**t chimes in and says use vs abuse, just LOL, you cannot safely use tren, its just damage control


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## nickc300 (Feb 14, 2014)

swole troll said:


> im firmly of the belief if you regularly use orals and tren (multiple cycles per year) you are likely shaving years off your life.
> 
> and if one c**t chimes in and says use vs abuse, just LOL, you cannot safely use tren, its just damage control


 Whats your thoughts on how tren compares to deca in terms of them both being 19nors and detrimental to health.

I'd safely presume tren is much more brutal then deca but on what kind of scale?


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## swole troll (Apr 15, 2015)

nickc300 said:


> Whats your thoughts on how tren compares to deca in terms of them both being 19nors and detrimental to health.
> 
> I'd safely presume tren is much more brutal then deca but on what kind of scale?


 theres been studies come out in recent years on nandrolone and cardiac remodeling so its far from the safer bet people once thought it was

fact of the matter is its all at a cost to your health if youre using doses high enough to get any significant sports performance benefit

but tren and orals are by far the worse

a basic bro science rule of thumb is the greater the gains the worse the health detriment:

test only relatively mild on blood markers, test only relatively modest gains

nandrolone mentioned above, solid gains

eq again pretty mild on your markers, crap as a main compound (i like EQ mixed with other stronger compounds to increase MG without increasing sides)

anadrol, tren, dbol ect will make you big and strong as s**t and at the same time rape your blood markers

you get the picture


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## Phil_tuggins (Jan 20, 2020)

stewedw said:


> Just been reading through this thread (exciting Saturday night eh?)
> 
> I know a lot of the names mentioned, but surely to god someone that runs 2g test with 1g mast 1g npp etc is gonna be royaly fkd inside? Your heart liver and kidneys must take a pounding?
> 
> If you ran a cycle like that for sixteen weeks, cruised for ten then ran it again and swapped the npp for tren then repeated for a total of four blasts (would be just under two years of b&c) then I'd imagine you'd look great but f**k me you'd be shaving off years of your life?


 None of this is healthy. At times you kind of regret getting involved in this cluster f**k of a "hobby"


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## godsgifttoearth (Jul 28, 2009)

swole troll said:


> For the most part (particularly training) his info is spot on
> 
> However 300mg for a first and 350mg for a second cycle isn't worth the shutdown
> 
> ...


 I feel personally attacked by this statement and I'm 80lbs down on him and an inch taller :lol:


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