# Belly/Cardio/Morning Oats!



## Newbie2008 (Sep 18, 2008)

Hi,

I am trying to lose some belly fat so have started adding 65% MHR cardio to my routine 5 days a week. I am also trying to reduce my carb intake.

As I work out early morning, I do my cardio directly after my workout (no time to run on empty stomach on waking).

My breakfast is usually 100g oats (porridge + 300ml semi-skimmed milk), and 30g whey (with water).

By eating breakfast before the cardio, am I just burning off what I've eaten instead of fat?

Cheers


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## MarkM (Sep 24, 2008)

The whole cardio on an empty stomach thing is a myth. To lose weight you must burn more calories than you take in. As long as your diet is right then you should burn fat.


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## Fatboy80 (Feb 27, 2008)

MarkM said:


> The whole cardio on an empty stomach thing is a myth. To lose weight you must burn more calories than you take in. As long as your diet is right then you should burn fat.


Cardio on empty a myth? What makes you say that?


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## the_pit_bull (Aug 18, 2008)

Cardio on empty stomach definitely works better. I know there is scence behind it and alot of the guys and gals on here will be able to tell you this.

I just know from experience that AM cardio on an empty stomach will drop fat.

Gaz


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## Jester (Jan 11, 2009)

That may well be the case, but if the lad can't get the cardio done at that time then the next best think is to do it as he is. Post training cardio, or any cardio at all for that matter is better then none.

Get stuck in mate and good luck getting lean!!


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## MarkM (Sep 24, 2008)

Fatboy80 said:


> Cardio on empty a myth? What makes you say that?


Because it's a calorie deficit that makes your bodyfat drop.


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## Fatboy80 (Feb 27, 2008)

MarkM said:


> Because it's a calorie deficit that makes your bodyfat drop.


 Obviously, but doing morning cardio on empty speeds it up right?


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## ElfinTan (May 23, 2008)

Whihc ever he does there has to be a calorie deficit. If he can do it fatsed and it works...great. If he can't then don't fret. As said do it when you can. But you are just as likely to lose fat off your earlobes as you are your bellie as neither spot reduces!

Personally I don't see the advantage of fatsed. It just doesn't make sense to me. If I have a bowl of porridge at 7am it will takes HOURS before if goes right through my digestive system and processed by my body before it can be used as 'fuel' so if I do cardio at 8am I am STILL using reserves of bodily fuel from the day/s before.


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## MJVP (Nov 10, 2008)

Fatboy80 said:


> Obviously, but doing morning cardio on empty speeds it up right?


 yea bcoz there are no calories for u 2 burn afta u hav got up..


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## MarkM (Sep 24, 2008)

Fatboy80 said:


> Obviously, but doing morning cardio on empty speeds it up right?


I'm not so sure; there are arguments for and against it. However, personally when I tried to do cardio on an empty stomach i had no chance of performing it intensely.

He can lose weight just as effectively purely with a calorie deficit, and should therefore concentrate on his diet as a whole, rather than what he eats before/after exercising.


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## MarkM (Sep 24, 2008)

MJVP said:


> yea bcoz there are no calories for u 2 burn afta u hav got up..


Maybe you'll end up burning muscle instead of fat?

I'm not the greatest expert on the science behind all of it. I just think it is safer and perhaps easier to do it after a bit of food.


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## dsldude (Sep 11, 2008)

I can only speak from my own experience but I have lost 22lbs

in about 12 weeks, And I haven't once done morning cardio!

But what I have done is kept my diet 700 calories under

my total daily calories burned including cardio, and kept

the diet clean.

I have done 35mins six days a week at 65% max heartrate

Losing bodyfat takes patience so do your cardio when it fits

in with your day, but its not all about cardio its about your diet

and calorie intake, so you must get them both right to get results.


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## kaney (Oct 12, 2008)

First of all hi to everyone as i am a newbee. I've been reading a lot of posts trying to figure out which way to go now as i've lost a steady 2and a 1/2 stone (ie 19st2lbs to 16st8lbs)since Sept 07.But now in january i want to get leaner so i've started to do cardio in the morning so to see if i can do it consistantly in the garage at 6.30 am only doing 30 mins on the treadmill fast walking,cross trainer or bike on a turbo trainer 10 min warm up2min sprints 2min cooldown for14mins then cooldown untill the 30 mins is up thto beat the bordness of using the same thing each morning i not only (once done) feel that i am toning up but i feel loads better for it and i only started 2 weeks ago i do all this on an empty stomach then have a protien shake stright after.

in jan i am starting my 1st cycle of steds ripped 150 and i am going to try one of the carbcycles.but thats another story.

thanks for all the good info you all put on the site its much apricated


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

MarkM said:


> The whole cardio on an empty stomach thing is a myth. To lose weight you must burn more calories than you take in. As long as your diet is right then you should burn fat.


weird how you make this statement as fact yet later in this thread you say you don't know the science behind it?

yes losing weight is down to having a calorie deficit but by doing cardio you can eat more food (maintain muscle) and lose fat (cardio) there are only a very few gifted individuals who can lose fat not weight but fat without cardio....

lets address what you have said is a myth.....

if you have food in your system your body will turn it into energy to power you through your workouts (weights/cardio) when you get up in the morning you have just fasted for at least 7hrs so your body will have used up all the food you eat the day before keeping you alive through the night....so what is your body going to use for energy? well firstly it will look for carbs if this is not available it will go for fat then thirdly it will break down amino's(muscle) convert it into sugar and use that (which is why many have a whey drink in water or amino's before cardio, although this is only a risk when very lean)......so at a fasted state your body will use store fat for energy...

now the way you do cardio will also effect how much fat you lose but that is for a different thread, there are 2 types that are most popular....

1 - Slow and long (heart rate kept at 65% - 75% for 30 - 60min)

2 - Hard and fast (HIIT method)

i have dieted for over 25 shows in 17yrs and always used method one and i can tell you from personal experience that cardio in the morning before food burns more fat than any other time of the day....

now you will be able to find a more geek type explanation for all of this but i don't do geek just real world experiance.... 

to the original poster - your breakfast is not to much and as long as you train hard you will have little energy in reserve for cardio (as high intensity training uses more carbs than fat for energy....) so doing cardio after a workout (2nd best time of the day) will be productive.....


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## Newbie2008 (Sep 18, 2008)

I think I will stick with what I'm doing and try and do some days on half the amount of oats - I don't think this should affect my workout.

Thanks again.


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## MarkM (Sep 24, 2008)

Pscarb said:


> weird how you make this statement as fact yet later in this thread you say you don't know the science behind it?
> 
> yes losing weight is down to having a calorie deficit but by doing cardio you can eat more food (maintain muscle) and lose fat (cardio) there are only a very few gifted individuals who can lose fat not weight but fat without cardio....
> 
> ...


I don't know the exact science behind it but i have read articles both for and against fasted cardio in the past. And I tended to side with the "against" articles. Hence why I believe it to be a myth.

Now I don't know the exact science to it; but i'll give it a little go. It is generally accepted that you will burn a higher percentage of fat (67% rather than 50% I think) in the morning when doing cardio fasted; however as your glucose levels aren't affected as much, when you consume food later in the day it is then more likely to be stored as fat once again. This is why I believe it is important to concentrate more on total calorie intake and expenditure rather than little tricks as such like fasted cardio. I will try and find some articles and then post the links to them on here.

The thing is; the original poster could be doing fasted cardio and then going on to eat more than he should during the rest of the day. This is why I said he should focus on his overall diet as he can lose fat maybe just as effectively without morning cardio (as cardio may be easier to perform at intensity with the aid of calories inside you and because calorie deficit equals weight loss).

There will always be articles both supporting and rejecting each method that there is to weight loss. Maybe I shouldn't have dismissed it as a myth but I am still in the school of thought that it isn't the magical way to lose fat.


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

MarkM said:


> I don't know the exact science behind it but i have read articles both for and against fasted cardio in the past. And I tended to side with the "against" articles. Hence why I believe it to be a myth.
> 
> Now I don't know the exact science to it; but i'll give it a little go. It is generally accepted that you will burn a higher percentage of fat (67% rather than 50% I think) in the morning when doing cardio fasted;


can i ask you where you got these figures from?



MarkM said:


> There will always be articles both supporting and rejecting each method that there is to weight loss. Maybe I shouldn't have dismissed it as a myth but I am still in the school of thought that it isn't the magical way to lose fat.


i can find a million articles on what is best for fat loss fasted or PWO cardio the truth is that you need to experiance the difference for yourself to truly understand if it works for you....i have done both fasted cardio and PWO cardio and for me and every one of my clients both competative and non competative fasted cardio gives better results than cardio PWO...

when you tried both methods what differences did you see that swayed you away from fasted cardio?


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## MarkM (Sep 24, 2008)

Pscarb said:


> can i ask you where you got these figures from?
> 
> i can find a million articles on what is best for fat loss fasted or PWO cardio the truth is that you need to experiance the difference for yourself to truly understand if it works for you....i have done both fasted cardio and PWO cardio and for me and every one of my clients both competative and non competative fasted cardio gives better results than cardio PWO...
> 
> when you tried both methods what differences did you see that swayed you away from fasted cardio?


The figures are from an article I read a while back; which I now cannot find but are also mentioned in this one (which subsequently agrees with your view of fasted cardio): http://http://www.freedomfly.net/Articles/Training/training17.htm

*"The researchers measured respiratory gas exchange, caloric expenditure and carbohydrate and fatty acid metabolism, and found that the amount of fat burned during aerobic exercise amounted to 67% of the total energy expenditure in the morning after a 12 hour fast. This is substantially higher than the 50% expenditure achieved when the same exercise was done later in the day or after eating"*

*
*

*
*I myself, originally started off doing fasted cardio as I had read it was better for fat loss. However, I found that I couldn't perform it at as high an intensity as I would have liked and started to find excuses not to do it. I then decided to try it after having a meal (several as I switched to doing it in the PM) and also PWO. After switching I didn't notice any difference in the rate at which I lost weight and I was certainly more able, willing and comfortable in performing it.

IMO unless you have a lot of motivation; fasted cardio will not be an easy regime to stick to and you may end up stopping (a view based around my personal experience). I think that it is more important to focus on your overall diet as in the end the calorie deficit will lower your fat levels.

I certainly don't have the years and clients worth of experience that you do but from my personal experience I do not believe it to be a better method for dropping fat.


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

that is where we will disagree...fasted cardio is in my opinion and many others the best time to drop fat....no cardio is easy and if it is then your not doing it right 

i do not do HIIT cardio and i would agree to do HIIT cardio in the morning is very hard i prefer longer cardio 45min+ at 75% heart rate


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## Bosch (Feb 20, 2009)

My personal experience fasted cardio in the morning is, you feel like running like a zombie. And I felt like losing muscle, even low intensity, after doing few weeks.

Then I switched to interval cardio 2min medium running followed by 30sec sprints for 20-30 min, ofc not in empty stomach.

I didn't feel `targeting`the fat depot, but my overall endurance increased with better muscle tone.

I don't believe there is such thing as targeting our fat zone alone, you will lose also muscle. When you watch athletic meetings who got the most muscles? Sprinter or long distance runners?

Ever heard of women asking how lose fat on their thighs or guys losing fat on abs?

What you get as an answer? Yeah, gain muscle and watch your whole calorie intake.

My common sense told me something is not right.

So why not apply that to this cardio on empty stomach?

But there are still many people who believes that. I think famous bodybuilders like Dexter Jackson and Jay Cutler giving good examples when I watch their dvd.

Although I respect them what they are doing and give good tips, I think their cardio in empty stomach is a traditional myth they are following like Arnold did.

Why don't think people that worked for them, maybe they lose more calorie through cardio than burning fat? I found two interesting articles. I don't believe everything behind a science but my common sense says it's more logical.

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/cb15.htm

http://alanaragon.com/myths-under-the-microscope-the-fat-burning-zone-fasted-cardio.html

(there are 3 parts)

Apologies for my bad English^^


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## RXnik (Dec 21, 2008)

Pscarb said:


> weird how you make this statement as fact yet later in this thread you say you don't know the science behind it?
> 
> yes losing weight is down to having a calorie deficit but by doing cardio you can eat more food (maintain muscle) and lose fat (cardio) there are only a very few gifted individuals who can lose fat not weight but fat without cardio....
> 
> ...


100% MATE

Ive lost about 30lbs since 1 december grafting my tits off maintaining states of ketosis and falling on the carb cutting, during this time i've ran cycles of thermobol with cla and maxi efa and two 3 week cycles of clen,

When i first started my routine was about a useful as a used condom, in fairness but with the help of the gyms in here i've really sorted it out and as you can see dropped alot of weight, Morning cardio as pscarb says at 65% of your maximum heart rate really hits hard, this is where it can go wrong because your training before food, sprint and bye bye muscle so please listen to pscarb the 65% max hr basically targets your body to use up its fat resources for fuel rather than glyco, so dont worry about muscle.

I have recently pushed for two cardio sessions per day, and it helped move me under my 12 stone 3 plateau to 11 stone 11 right now, Using fat burning walks in the morning and interval at night post weights.

Just want to highlight a few points to help settle this arguement:

* "i have dieted for over 25 shows in 17yrs and always used method one and i can tell you from personal experience that cardio in the morning before food burns more fat than any other time of the day.." - Pscarb*

*
*

thats solid proof to be fair pro competition bodybuilder talking there without brown nosing anyone i think solid evidence is better than debating articles


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## Bosch (Feb 20, 2009)

RXnik said:


> 100% MATE
> 
> Ive lost about 30lbs since 1 december grafting my tits off maintaining states of ketosis and falling on the carb cutting, during this time i've ran cycles of thermobol with cla and maxi efa and two 3 week cycles of clen,
> 
> ...


There are countless pro athletes who sticks to their questionable regime and still successful. There are pro athletes who seems doing everything right but still not at top. If you want an example, watch *8th time Mr. Olympia* Ronnie Coleman's diet, and compare to Jay Cutler's or other who are very strict dieting.

A lot of athletes get to where they're at in spite of what they do, not because of what they do.

If you read the last article carefully, you would have noticed that the author doesn't say AM cardio isn't effective at all, if it's suit you better than stick with it.


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## Hobbit JT (Sep 13, 2008)

MarkM said:


> I'm not so sure; there are arguments for and against it. However, personally when I tried to do cardio on an empty stomach i had no chance of performing it intensely.
> 
> He can lose weight just as effectively purely with a calorie deficit, and should therefore concentrate on his diet as a whole, rather than what he eats before/after exercising.


No, too burn fat your cardio should be from intense! It should be a slow pace at 65% of heart range. Its better to do it on an empty stomach but If you can't its just better to cardio anyway.

A calorie deficit won make lose just fat, he may end up loosing alot of muscle, depending on the diet. Ive just been doing a keto diet/timed carbs diet and it is working wonders dropping fat like a machine, and I just hit a personal best on my squats and SLDL and some other exercises.


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## Hobbit JT (Sep 13, 2008)

MarkM said:


> I don't know the exact science behind it but i have read articles both for and against fasted cardio in the past. And I tended to side with the "against" articles. Hence why I believe it to be a myth.
> 
> Now I don't know the exact science to it; but i'll give it a little go. It is generally accepted that you will burn a higher percentage of fat (67% rather than 50% I think) in the morning when doing cardio fasted; however as your glucose levels aren't affected as much, when you consume food later in the day it is then more likely to be stored as fat once again. This is why I believe it is important to concentrate more on total calorie intake and expenditure rather than little tricks as such like fasted cardio. I will try and find some articles and then post the links to them on here.
> 
> ...


Yes calorie defecit is what you need to lose fat, BUT if your diet sucks you would lose just as much muscle as fat, and just because you do cardio on a empty stomach doesn't mean your body is going to absorb foods that day and replenish those fat stores, by not consuming carbs your body will turn to fat you consume and have on your body for energy and turn them into Ketones for energy hence term Ketosis, in my opinion best diet for fat loss is the ketodiet/timed carbs, been doing it for a week and is working wonders, dropped nearlly 3% bodyfat in a week.

I suggest you read the article PSCARB posted up on TimedCarbs and Keto DIet stickied thread

PSCARB knows his stuff, and its working for me.


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

Bosch said:


> I don't believe there is such thing as targeting our fat zone alone, you will lose also muscle. When you watch athletic meetings who got the most muscles? Sprinter or long distance runners? ^^


so you train like a sprinter do you?

you will lose very very little muscle if your diet is good and you do cardio in the am without food at a medium intensity higher intensity cardio on an empty stomach will give you muscle loss...



Bosch said:


> I think famous bodybuilders like Dexter Jackson and Jay Cutler giving good examples when I watch their dvd.
> 
> Although I respect them what they are doing and give good tips, I think their cardio in empty stomach is a traditional myth they are following like Arnold did.


so it is a myth so it does not work weird how they get into such awesome condition if it is a myth.....



Bosch said:


> Why don't think people that worked for them, maybe they lose more calorie through cardio than burning fat? I found two interesting articles. I don't believe everything behind a science but my common sense says it's more logical.
> 
> http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/cb15.htm
> 
> ...


there are many articles out there that say that am cardio is the best for burning fat....now i would rather go by practical experiances in seeing this first hand it works it is not a myth...



Bosch said:


> There are countless pro athletes who sticks to their questionable regime and still successful. There are pro athletes who seems doing everything right but still not at top. If you want an example, watch *8th time Mr. Olympia* Ronnie Coleman's diet, and compare to Jay Cutler's or other who are very strict dieting.
> 
> A lot of athletes get to where they're at in spite of what they do, not because of what they do.
> 
> If you read the last article carefully, you would have noticed that the author doesn't say AM cardio isn't effective at all, if it's suit you better than stick with it.


sorry mate but this is total b0lloxs Coleman had a bad diet...how please explain how his diet was bad yes it was different to cutlers but then cutlers was different to yates diet weird how coleman won 8 Mr O's and cutler won 2 :whistling:

can i ask have you ever dieted for a show? as it seems that you critisise the best in the sport so wondering how you have got down to sub 5%??


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## laurie g (Nov 28, 2008)

its not a myth cardio on an empty stomach first thing in the morning is a tried and tested method wtih evident results, i havnt heard any contradicting theories to that one.


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## tmacf (Jan 27, 2009)

Having read a lot of pscarb posts it pretty obvious he knows his stuff. Alot guys who need to be i real good shape go to him for help.


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## Hobbit JT (Sep 13, 2008)

Bosch you should watch Ronnie Coleman's Redeption film, his diet is far from bad. Just because it isnt your normal cliche bodybuilding diet doesn't mean its bad.


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## laurie g (Nov 28, 2008)

tmacf said:


> Having read a lot of pscarb posts it pretty obvious he knows his stuff. Alot guys who need to be i real good shape go to him for help.


yep pscarb knows what he is doing, very knowledgeble creature:thumb: he has helped me from time to time and have found out he knows pretty much everything:thumbup1:. read his column in beef magasine:beer:


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## tmacf (Jan 27, 2009)

I keep meaning to buy beef but need to drive 15 miles to get a copy. I do morning fasted cardio and i don't think you could do interval training in the morning but long and steady seems to be doing the trick. ie 45mins at constant pace


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## laurie g (Nov 28, 2008)

get subscribed to the beef that way it flops through your door and you can get excited tthat theres a piece of mail for you ( well i do cos im sad)

i do 30mins of cardio in the moring, take a black coffee 3 ehidrine and then take an amble round the block with my ipodm works very well/ wouldnt recommend very strenous excercise at that time its a fine line between burning fat and muscle


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## tmacf (Jan 27, 2009)

Might just subscribe. I go to the gym in the morning but next week it will need to be outdoor cardio cos i start work at 8 next week and i have a 40minute drive. joy


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## FATBOY (Mar 4, 2008)

why do people question tried and tested methods that bodybuilders have proved are effective and work ,basing there theries on a artical they have read ,

all cardio works to a extent its just that there are times to to it when it is more efficient ie first thing in a morning fasted and post workout .


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## Gideon1969 (Dec 27, 2008)

Fasted cardio (60mins at 75% max heart rate) has worked great for me, lost 43lbs in less than six months, not noticed any muscle loss.

cheers, mark


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

tmacf said:


> Having read a lot of pscarb posts it pretty obvious he knows his stuff. Alot guys who need to be i real good shape go to him for help.


cheers mate



FATBOY said:


> all cardio works to a extent its just that there are times to to it when it is more efficient ie first thing in a morning fasted and post workout .


exactly mate as long as you do cardio then you cannot go wrong most who are arguing about fasted am cardio have never done it to lose a large amount of fat and are just going by what they think or what someone else has said..


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## toomuchbodyfat (Jan 23, 2009)

all i got to say on this matter is...

i sorted my diet... well maybe still dont eat enough in the mornings...

but what i do is a T5!! lol.... then 3 hours cardio (postman)about 65% max heart rate..

this is where i fvck up cause dont wanna eat!! just drinking h20!!

and i been burning fat like a mofo.... been doin this for 3 weeks now.. feel much better and lookin leaner!!!!!!!!!

fasted cardio baby!!!


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## Bosch (Feb 20, 2009)

Pscarb said:


> so you train like a sprinter do you?
> 
> you will lose very very little muscle if your diet is good and you do cardio in the am without food at a medium intensity higher intensity cardio on an empty stomach will give you muscle loss...
> 
> ...


Ok I contradicted myself about muscle loss, cause I said what matters is the whole day calorie consumed and training.

Maybe the plus cardio just worked as = more training?

Yeah, personal experience is best. But doesn't mean it suits for everybody.

I believe AM cardio advantage is, you burn steady calories and low injury risk, and can do more times a week than interval cardio.

First, I didn't meant Coleman's diet is bad. I like Coleman's video best, cause he enjoys his food and Cutler doesn't. Maybe that's the secret?^^

No, what I meant to say is that Cutler's diet is more classical, and majority bodybuilder would follow that, than Coleman's. It isn't still optimal and different but still successful.

And did Coleman AM cardio? I think he did cardio but not on empty stomach. But he was still successful.

That doesn't mean I'm following everything what Coleman did. It just gives me the impression everybody is different.

I answered the critisizing part I guess.^^ But if you are reffering to yourself that you have more experinece than me, yeah I guess you have.

I'm coming from bboying and martial art and I'm interested in bodybuilding.

I'm about 8-10% all year around so I don't know much about sub 5%, so more power to you mate. :thumbup1: More power if you are sub 5% off season.^^


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

no where near 5% off season no reason to be at all....

coleman does do or did do am cardio before meal 1, yes you are correct everyone is individual but this is not what you have said in prevouise posts.....

HIIT cardio burns more calories less fat + has more chance of burning muscle.....

slower 65-75% heart rate cardio burns less overall calories but more from fat and less muscle burned.....


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## SOUTHMAN (Sep 14, 2008)

ive been doing am pre food cardio, I have been loosing fat for sure. Its obviously a combination of diet and the cardio. Ive not noticed any muscle loss, infact with my shirt off i look bigger!

I dont even have a heart rate monitor, i find it quite hard to reach 75% heart rate without getting quite intense. I just do basically a brisk walk and it seems to be working!


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