# Thoughts on cardio.



## Animal Dave (Jul 23, 2010)

Good evening ladies and gents, I was just wondering how many of you incorporate cardio into your training and to what amounts. For me it's more of a 'when I can be bothered' type thing so every couple of days as opposed to a set 2 hours each day type thing.

Really interested to know your thoughts on this one and what works for you.

This will obviously vary between person and what your goals are i.e. cutting / bulking / comp prep or just beefing it.

Cheers,

Dave.


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## elliot438 (Mar 9, 2013)

I am doing cardio daily now, I do 40 - 50 minutes fasted cardio every morning. Sometimes a session after workout and sometimes doing even 3 sessions a day.

So I do anywhere between 40 and 120 minutes a day all fast paced walking.

Never did cardio up until a few weeks ago when I started my cut and have realised what a great tool it can be all year round!


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## TwoCanVanDamn (Jun 22, 2012)

I'm trying to become a bit leaner for my holiday and I do around 40 minutes fasted cardio every week day. Either boxing or crosstrainer. I like boxing but hate any other kind of cv


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## badly_dubbed (Nov 21, 2011)

i do none. not required if diet is 100% perfection


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## silver (Feb 18, 2010)

because imdieting down hard im doing 40-60 minutes twice a day, once fasted. Usually on my spin bike


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## B.I.G (Jun 23, 2011)

I do cardio for my health more than to be lean. Want to make sure my heart gets a good workout.


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## Big_Z (Nov 21, 2012)

3-4 times a week for me. It is just as structured as my resistance training & more important.

I recommend it to anyone for CV health.


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## PHMG (Jun 15, 2010)

badly_dubbed said:


> i do none. not required if diet is 100% perfection


It could increase absorption rate of your 100% diet. Meaning you could eat more, grow more and stay the same bodyfat.


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## K1NGCA1N (Aug 24, 2012)

Twice a week I hit the cross trainer for 30 mins and the rowing machine for 15. Not a massive fan if cardio though tbh as I find it boring as fook!


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## badly_dubbed (Nov 21, 2011)

PowerHouseMcGru said:


> It could increase absorption rate of your 100% diet. Meaning you could eat more, grow more and stay the same bodyfat.


it would also increase cortisol and suppress GH and tax the CNS to an extent, My mate was an avid fan of cardio....i told him to ditch it completely and with subtle tweaks to his diet only did this in 8 weeks....it really isnt needed....ill always stick to that.


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## PHMG (Jun 15, 2010)

badly_dubbed said:


> it would also increase cortisol and suppress GH and tax the CNS to an extent, My mate was an avid fan of cardio....i told him to ditch it completely and with subtle tweaks to his diet only did this in 8 weeks....it really isnt needed....ill always stick to that.
> 
> View attachment 113573


Whats with the dark picture and then a picture with the contrast smashed right up next to it??

Whats to say with cardio and increased food, your mate couldnt have put on some lean mass whilst loosing fat.


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## badly_dubbed (Nov 21, 2011)

he took the first picture jan 10th...i took the second yesterday in my gym....thats all theres no editing on either....trust me...its real.


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## corporates (Nov 12, 2006)

I do very gentle cardio a couple of times a week, but now doing more at the moment to strip fat whilst controlling calorie intake.


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## bobbydrake (Nov 19, 2012)

I don't bother with cardio at all anymore. Started weight training last March and have lost 2 stone and keep putting lean muscle on just fine. My bodyfat has gone from around 19% to 11.2% just with the weight training so I'm of the mind that it isn't needed. (Plus I spent I don't know how many years running on a treadmill and was just getting bigger love handles)!


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## PHMG (Jun 15, 2010)

badly_dubbed said:


> he took the first picture jan 10th...i took the second yesterday in my gym....thats all theres no editing on either....trust me...its real.


Lol, im messing mate. Of course its real. :lol:

He lost fat in 8 weeks. Its not unheard of lol. I wasnt even disputing you cant do it without cardio. Im just putting it out there that there are 2 sides of the coin and you just saying "its not needed" is a bit of a sweeping statement.

I mean, i could say cardio or diet isnt needed. Just up drugs. Does that mean its the best option?


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## badly_dubbed (Nov 21, 2011)

As always, there's more than one way to skin a cat man


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## PHMG (Jun 15, 2010)

badly_dubbed said:


> As always, there's more than one way to skin a cat man


I love cats so id rather we didnt skin any!!! What sick bastard came up with this saying?


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

Animal Dave said:


> Good evening ladies and gents, I was just wondering how many of you incorporate cardio into your training and to what amounts. For me it's more of a 'when I can be bothered' type thing so every couple of days as opposed to a set 2 hours each day type thing.
> 
> Really interested to know your thoughts on this one and what works for you.
> 
> ...


It depends on what you want to achieve - if bulking then, while I think it's always a good idea to have a fairly high activity level, there is no absolute need for it, although if you are prone to serious overeating then it can be a good control to keep energy balance in check.

If cutting though and really struggling with the low food intake then by doing cardio you can keep kcals a bit higher and create your energy deficit through a combo of food restriction and exercise, making the dieting easier.

If you keep sessions relatively short, under 45 mins, you won't be catabolizing muscle or elevating cortisol to any meaningful degree - lots of long drawn out cardio sessions though and you may well be.


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## rsd147 (Nov 14, 2012)

I suppose it does not matter if your diet is okay but for general fitness I think its important. I do roughly 3-4 times a week


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## Lean D (Jun 21, 2012)

Depends what your doing cardio for...

For cutting I never touched one bit of cardio... Carb Cycling and intense workouts... got me cut.

I got down to about 6.8% BF without Cardio, but im attempting a bulk now and will do the same again until i stop at a % and then i will add cardio for the stubborn bit of fat i can't shift.


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## rectus (Jan 18, 2012)

I've got leaner with just diet alone (kept up resistance work) but I feel to get leaner I need to add in cardio. I HATE cardio so much, bores me senseless. There are obviously the benefits of being fitter which is a great feeling when you're able to do more than you would previously been able to do, lets say in the bedroom for instance (changing a duvet is exhausting work).

*Question:* So in an effort to avoid cardio I was considering HIT - strength training at a high intensity by super setting and using the main compound lifts. Do you think is an adequate replacement for spending 30+ mins on the bike/treadmill to achieve my goals of being super lean and fitter?


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## Lean D (Jun 21, 2012)

In my opinion, I would advise HIT Training, keeping rest short, sweat like a mutha****er and push yourself! Don't give up on a set/rep... exert yourself more. In my opinion is it more than an adequate replacement to cardio.

However if Fitness is in your goal, i would probably recommend cardio once a week minimum, just to keep your lungs exercised to a good rate.

put a film on your phone, and do an hour walking in a hoodie etc.


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## Xbigdave79 (Mar 30, 2012)

I'm doing it at he moment to stay healthy and keep fat off while I bulk

No point being big and muscly if you can't run up a flight of stairs


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## rectus (Jan 18, 2012)

I was listening to a very interesting podcast earlier with Layne Norton and another Dr. where they addressed the pro's and con's of cardio and the two main types in regards to being muscular and lean.

*In summary:*


L.I.S.S reduces protein synthesis post workout, HIIT keeps protein synthesis alive (talks about MTOR/AMP Kinase *out of my depth*)

L.I.S.S can work against your strength goals especially in regards to leg strength when training on the same day

HIIT is superior for fat loss and muscle maintainence

HIIT should be performed at such an intense rate that you are unable to operate properly afterwards

A stationary bike is an acceptable alternative to sprinting on ground


I understood HIIT was a superior method but it's nice to have it confirmed by two men who actually train, are after the same goals as us and use studies as their sources of information (a meta-analysis was used also).


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

rectus said:


> I was listening to a very interesting podcast earlier with Layne Norton and another Dr. where they addressed the pro's and con's of cardio and the two main types in regards to being muscular and lean.
> 
> *In summary:*
> 
> ...


HIIT is generally better yes, although with some of the people I'm helping recomp (obese non bodybuilders) their weight and state of fitness in the early stages of losing weight prevents them from doing HIIT properly and so in that situation one has to start with gentler steady state type exercise. HIIT is hard if you are unfit.

Incidentally, there is a good study going around (on steady state) showing that there is a significantly higher 24 hour rate of fat oxidation by doing two 30min cardio sessions separated by an hour or so compared to just doing 60 mins straight through. I've tried a modified version of this in the past with a 30 min steady state session, then 45 min to an hours rest and then a 20-25min HIIT session, and that while tiring absolutely melts the fat off.

I'd start fasted, and then between sessions I'd re-hydrate with an isotonic drink and 10g of mixed BCAAs/glutamine or EAA's, and a proper meal approx 30mins afterwards.


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## rectus (Jan 18, 2012)

dtlv said:


> HIIT is generally better yes, although with some of the people I'm helping recomp (obese non bodybuilders) their weight and state of fitness in the early stages of losing weight prevents them from doing HIIT properly and so in that situation one has to start with gentler steady state type exercise. HIIT is hard if you are unfit.
> 
> Incidentally, there is a good study going around (on steady state) showing that there is a significantly higher 24 hour rate of fat oxidation by doing two 30min cardio sessions separated by an hour or so compared to just doing 60 mins straight through. I've tried a modified version of this in the past with a 30 min steady state session, then 45 min to an hours rest and then a 20-25min HIIT session, and that while tiring absolutely melts the fat off.
> 
> I'd start fasted, and then between sessions I'd re-hydrate with an isotonic drink and 10g of mixed BCAAs/glutamine or EAA's, and a proper meal approx 30mins afterwards.


Yeah that makes sense about the obese clients but could you not put them on a less intense HIIT protocol? Say for instance: 10 second max effort, 2 min (or however long it takes) rest, then work your way up from there. The kind of HIIT training talked about in the podcast is not in the 20-25 min range (what set structure did you follow?). I realise that a lot of that is rest but they're talking about very short intervals (30 seconds as an absolute maximum) and low sets with enough rest to go max effort on the next set. Some of the athletes who took part in a HIIT study left because they couldn't handle it haha. I remember reading an article about HIIT/steady state by Lyle McDonald and he says that people who can do HIIT training on a regular basis during the week aren't working hard enough.


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

rectus said:


> Yeah that makes sense about the obese clients but could you not put them on a less intense HIIT protocol? Say for instance: 10 second max effort, 2 min (or however long it takes) rest, then work your way up from there. The kind of HIIT training talked about in the podcast is not in the 20-25 min range (what set structure did you follow?). I realise that a lot of that is rest but they're talking about very short intervals (30 seconds as an absolute maximum) and low sets with enough rest to go max effort on the next set. Some of the athletes who took part in a HIIT study left because they couldn't handle it haha. I remember reading an article about HIIT/steady state by Lyle McDonald and he says that people who can do HIIT training on a regular basis during the week aren't working hard enough.


Believe me have tried, but there are so many factors with very obese people - shockingly poor CV fitness, knees/lower back and feet very susceptible to pain, and also the psychological element of it - they are often very resistant to exercise and need to be eased into it.

Also, when you are talking about moving a 400lb + individual like one of my gals was at the start then just a gentle walk for 20-30 mins is massively exhausting - anything more tiring than that and it effectively wipes them out for the rest of the day and they won't move at all - definitely undesirable because you want to increase basic activity levels.

When going from nothing it really helps to build fitness first and then to gradually bring in elements of HIIT, IMO.


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## rectus (Jan 18, 2012)

dtlv said:


> Believe me have tried, but there are so many factors with very obese people - shockingly poor CV fitness, knees/lower back and feet very susceptible to pain, and also the psychological element of it - they are often very resistant to exercise and need to be eased into it.
> 
> Also, when you are talking about moving a 400lb + individual like one of my gals was at the start then just a gentle walk for 20-30 mins is massively exhausting - anything more tiring than that and it effectively wipes them out for the rest of the day and they won't move at all - definitely undesirable because you want to increase basic activity levels.
> 
> When going from nothing it really helps to build fitness first and then to gradually bring in elements of HIIT, IMO.


Very true, slow and steady  It's a very important consideration, I haven't had to train any one that over-weight as of yet, I just typically go in hard and fast which would clearly be a mistake with a morbidly obese person - though I'd like to think I'd have the intelligence to asses the situation correctly and make the necessary adjustments. The thing is though, what typically sells you as a trainer is when a client feels utterly destroyed after a session, they feel like they have achieved something great and will come back for more pain (the age old "no pain no gain). If you approach it in a more intelligent, long term manner, where sessions are optimal but not debilitating you are less likely to get repeat business - this comes from a more experienced trainer I spoke to the other day.

Have a listen, I'd love to hear your thoughts on this: http://www.rxmuscle.com/2013-01-11-01-57-36/muscle-college/7694-muscle-college-3-12-13.html or direct link http://www.rxmuscle.com/radio//MuscleCollege03-12-13.mp3


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

rectus said:


> Very true, slow and steady  It's a very important consideration, I haven't had to train any one that over-weight as of yet, I just typically go in hard and fast which would clearly be a mistake with a morbidly obese person - though I'd like to think I'd have the intelligence to asses the situation correctly and make the necessary adjustments. The thing is though, what typically sells you as a trainer is when a client feels utterly destroyed after a session, they feel like they have achieved something great and will come back for more pain (the age old "no pain no gain). If you approach it in a more intelligent, long term manner, where sessions are optimal but not debilitating you are less likely to get repeat business - this comes from a more experienced trainer I spoke to the other day.
> 
> Have a listen, I'd love to hear your thoughts on this: http://www.rxmuscle.com/2013-01-11-01-57-36/muscle-college/7694-muscle-college-3-12-13.html or direct link http://www.rxmuscle.com/radio//MuscleCollege03-12-13.mp3


that's the thing - to a morbidly obese person who can barely walk for ten mins, a twenty min slightly-brisk walk is a workout to the edge - anything more is actually debilitating. Also a fair few very obese people do not want to exercise full stop, and while they don't have to it really helps if they do - extra way to burn kcals which allows them to eat a bit more, improvements in circulation & muscle strength, higher BMR and insulin sensitivity etc.

Will check the link later and get back to you :thumbup1:


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