# First signs of gyno.. Nolva & Letro questions!



## marco123 (Jun 9, 2008)

Hi guys,

This is my first post, and I regret to say that I am in need of some help from more experienced guys in this field.. So please chip in with some advice ASAP!

I am coming to the end of week 4 of my first cycle, 250mg of Test E (Testoviron) every 5 days for 10 weeks (a compromise between 250mg/week and 500mg/week). Two days ago I started to notice a strange feeling in my nipples (not really sure if 'itch' or 'tingling' are the right words to describe what im feeling so il just stick with 'strange'!!).

Ever since then I have been a paranoid wreck, the last thing i want is gyno.. Anyway I have been examining them every few hours and I can now feel some small ball-type lumps beginning to form.. at least I think so anyway. I think I always had a touch of lumpiness here (maybe it was just my glands though?) but I am now getting very worried as I think they may be getting bigger.

I have been reading scores of threads over the last few days on gyno, nolvadex and A.I.s, and every time I think I'm coming to a decision about what to do, I read another post that confuses me again! I would be so so grateful if someone with a similar experience, or someone with good knowledge of SERM and A.I. use could help me out here for my specific case..

I have plenty of nolvadex on hand but no A.I.s as I was advised by some experienced steroid users that I would not need them with my modest dose.. But I am clearly quite estrogen sensitive.. I think??

Should I order some Femara (letrozole) or Arimidex? And in the mean time should I start taking some Nolva? I read that a 40mg initial dose of Nolva, tapering down to 20mg then a maintenance dose of 10mg would help it from progressing, but would I have to keep taking nolva for the remainder of my cycle? As in right through to the end of PCT?

And also, would merely blocking my estrogen receptors reverse these changes or would I need to lower estrogen altogether by using an A.I. (Femara in particular) to reverse the early signs of gyno? I also read that Femara is an extremely potent A.I., and could be a bit of overkill for my modest dose of test, is this true? But I also read that its the only drug that can reverse gyno short of surgery.

If you do advise the use of Femara, after tapering up the dose, maintaining 2.5mg daily til the symptoms subside, then tapering down again, would I need to maintain 0.25-0.5mg daily right up til i start nolva and clomid for PCT? And could I experience an estrogen rebound?

Any help from a knowledgeable source would be GREATLY appreciated, and ASAP!!


----------



## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Ok, to be honest nolva will keep it away but I have never used it for reversing gyno, I have used letro (femara), but that will take up to a few weeks for blood plasma levels to get up to speed.

Arimidex is good and works fast, either one can be used as well as aromasin.

Adex I like the best, femara gave me some stiff joints and jacked my libido, even on cycle.


----------



## sofresh (Sep 9, 2008)

Listen to Hack, he is the man and really knows what he is talking about


----------



## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

sofresh said:


> Listen to Hack, he is the man and really knows what he is talking about


Only because I sucessfully reversed gyno with letro.

Had another dude do it with adex, so either way.

Only bummer with the nolva is this, just 20mg of nolva can lower blood plasma levels of letro by 38%, and best guess is 28% for adex.

But nolva will have no effect on aromasin, as well as tore will not have an effect on letro.

I use tore and letro, the tore to stop the gyno from getting bigger while blood plasma levels of letro kicked in.

On another note, I had a bump on my left wrist, about the size of a pea, when I was using the letro to remove the gyno that lump went away and I noticed about 3 years ago when it popped up with a test, EQ cycle.

That lump went away too and has not came back......lol


----------



## marco123 (Jun 9, 2008)

Thanks very much for the quick reply, I was actually hoping u would offer your opinion at some point hackskii, u seem to realy know your stuff!

I have a reliable source for arimidex, and i could have it within a week, but for femara I would have to put my faith in a website I have never used before, and wait a good deal longer for it to arrive by the looks of things.

So do you think I should go ahead and order the arimidex? I dont think I will have much gyno to reverse to be honest, so do you think it would do the trick? What sort of dose should I start with, 0.5mg EOD? Would I maintain this dose for the remainder of my cycle? And when should I stop taking it?

Also, should I pop a few nolva tabs in the mean time to prevent any further changes? If so what dosages would you recommend? I would obviously stop taking nolva before I started the arimidex because of the bad interactions it causes..


----------



## bigacb (Nov 13, 2007)

Personally mate id start the nolva asap until adex arrives. Id stick with adex simply because you trust the source.


----------



## Truewarrior1 (Jan 27, 2005)

have a look on the thread i made about epistane reversing gyno. i'll give you a tip though, don't keep touching it. touch it once a day if that and try not to worry about it! stress isn't good for hormones.


----------



## marco123 (Jun 9, 2008)

Thanks for chipping in mate, wot dose do u think i should start with? 40mg for the first day then down to 20mg or 10mg til the arimidex arrives or wot?


----------



## marco123 (Jun 9, 2008)

Truewarrior, thanks for that cuz at the minute I cant stop f***in thinkin about growin tits, an Im permanently touchin my nips too! Its puttin me in a bad mood just worryin about it. I havent taken any nolva yet cuz I wanted to see if it was jus my imagination, but I dont think it is anymore so Id better get some into me 2nite


----------



## bigacb (Nov 13, 2007)

I personally would stick with 40mg until it stops feeling 'strange' and i would personally run it in a couple of days with the adex then stop the nolva and continue the adex throughout your cycle up until PCT. Im assuming your PCT will be along the lines of nolva and clomid anyways so you should be fine. Im currently trying out epistane myself to reduce gyno...not really doing much i must say but my strength is up squatted 220kg raw today :thumb: a PB and im yet to start my 'real' cycle in 2 weeks.


----------



## bigacb (Nov 13, 2007)

marco123 said:


> Truewarrior, thanks for that cuz at the minute I cant stop f***in thinkin about growin tits, an Im permanently touchin my nips too! Its puttin me in a bad mood just worryin about it. I havent taken any nolva yet cuz I wanted to see if it was jus my imagination, but I dont think it is anymore so Id better get some into me 2nite


Mate dont let it get to you...it wont get any worse than it is now...i know what situation youve been in you feel like cutting it out yourself. The nolva will stop it from growing and the adex should shrink it if its only just started. :thumbup1:


----------



## marco123 (Jun 9, 2008)

How long have you been takin the epistane mate? And how long has it been since your last cycle? Yea Im plannin on nolva and clomid for PCT, was gona use some HCG too but I read recently that it can cause problems for gyno sensitive guys.. Does any1 know if this is true?

I wouldnt be too bothered if it just stopped any further gyno development, as my lumps just now wouldnt even be noticeable to other ppl, but im just s*** scared of them gettin any bigger. bigacb, do u know of any1 who has successfully reduced the size of early lumps with arimidex? Or does any1 apart from hackskii know if its worked for early gyno reversal?

Btw bigacb, it sounds like ur squats gona get into the freak zone wen u start your 'real' cycle!


----------



## marco123 (Jun 9, 2008)

Nice 1 bigacb, cheers for that mate! Some reassurance goes a long way..


----------



## bigacb (Nov 13, 2007)

TBH early lumps if caught soon enough (before turning fibrous) can be shrunk if not completely removed. Whilst on your cycle have you been bulking or put any fat on as this is often concieved as gyno. Try dropping your bf % and see if that helps. When im fat i feel like i have tits when im not i have little lumps so its swings and round abouts. Many people i know that use AAS have little lumps so dont worry mate, youve done the right thing and will catch it in time. Get taking them nolva.


----------



## Truewarrior1 (Jan 27, 2005)

bigacb, be patient it was around the middle to end of the 2nd week before i started noticing.surely you must notice your nips not puffy whatsoever? :S marco yes hcg can/will cause an estrogen increase along with the LH going up so use a anti-e with it 

just as a note i tried letrozole about 2 years ago and it didnt do jack for my gyno to be honest i went up to quite a high dose of it for about 2 months and all it did was fck my sex drive.


----------



## bigacb (Nov 13, 2007)

Well im in week 3 now and noticed much somedays i think it has then others i think it hasnt...its all mind games depending if your warm up or cold. Strength has gone up with it im doing PBs on nearly everything which im suprised about as i never really bought into the designer steroid side of things. It was your log that made me try it actually mate.


----------



## marco123 (Jun 9, 2008)

truewarrior1, i cant find ur thread on epistane, did an advanced search an everythin, how long ago was it?

can u jus give me ur thots on it with regards to gyno in a nutshell now plz if ur not too busy?

an is that mr. shakur i see in the background there?? u got good taste mate..


----------



## bigacb (Nov 13, 2007)

http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/steroid-testosterone-information/41417-gyno-problems-solved.html


----------



## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

I would do some nolva now while you wait for the adex, yes get the adex now.

I would do something like 1mg EOD for starters, if gyno goes away then cool, if not then you will have to modify the plan.

Playing with your nipples can increase prolactin, just leave them alone, a gentle press on the nipple looking for lumps is ok, dont pay with them.

Aggrivating them are not what you want to do right now.


----------



## marco123 (Jun 9, 2008)

Ok thanks hackskii, iv ordered a pack of 28 x 1mg tabs of astra-zeneca arimidex, pretty damn pricey too. If i take 1mg EOD thats more than enough to take me thru to PCT..

Im hopin that will sort it for me..

Do you know if the generic versions are any less effective? Cuz they really are alot cheaper, but value for money aint the real priority right now, i just want something that works!

Also could I experience any sort of estrogen rebound from that dosage of arimidex? Like could I experience similar problems after my PCT has finished because I have been suppressing my estrogen for weeks before PCT?


----------



## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Run the nolva before you start the AI, or cut the dose in half every 5 days, to avoid estrogen rebounding........

Adex is very expensive but good stuff and works fast.


----------



## marco123 (Jun 9, 2008)

Thats wot im planning on doing, think 40mg nolva ED til my arimidex arrives sounds ok mate?

Do u mean cut the dose of arimidex in half every 5 days? Is that after I notice it working on the gyno or is that just from the start? And wot dose should I aim to come down to as a maintenance level before starting PCT?

Sorry to ask so many questions hackskii but I just realy wanna get this right..


----------



## bigacb (Nov 13, 2007)

Yeh start the nolva now mate at 40mg ed until adex arrives then run it for a couple of days into starting the adex (if that makes sense). Start the adex at 1mg eod then once lump starts to shrink lower the adex to 0.5mg eod then when your cycle is finished lower the adex to 0.25mg eod until the start of PCT. Then 4 weeks on nolva and clomid and you should have avoided any rebound.


----------



## Truewarrior1 (Jan 27, 2005)

bigacb said:


> Well im in week 3 now and noticed much somedays i think it has then others i think it hasnt...its all mind games depending if your warm up or cold. Strength has gone up with it im doing PBs on nearly everything which im suprised about as i never really bought into the designer steroid side of things. It was your log that made me try it actually mate.


haha yeah man anyone who tried superdrol can tell you designer steroids/ph are not joke, of course you dont have the years of reports with the tried and tested steroids.

thats great! you should add your thoughts to the thread at the end of your cycle. marco in a nutshell i believe it reversed my gyno from about 2-3 50p coins to 1 50p coin. i'll be doing another cycle after more than equal time off from first one which will coinside with a serious diet so should be interesting, but i really would urge you to read the the whole post if not the whole thread.http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/steroid-testosterone-information/41417-gyno-problems-solved.html

:beer:


----------



## Sylar (Sep 7, 2008)

hackskii said:


> I would do some nolva now while you wait for the adex, yes get the adex now.
> 
> I would do something like 1mg EOD for starters, if gyno goes away then cool,


That's a pretty low dose for reversing isn't it?

I would run it at 1mg ED, then taper down once gyno sides subside.


----------



## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Sylar said:


> That's a pretty low dose for reversing isn't it?
> 
> I would run it at 1mg ED, then taper down once gyno sides subside.


Yah, you could run it ED, I just wanted him to use the lowest dose to reverse it, I dont remember if he said he was on a cycle nor not, if he is on then yah, more will probably work quicker, but if he uses enough it will reverse it.

I just dont like the idea of lowering estrogen too low, it can compromise lipid profile and libido.

If he is off cycle then he may get away with EOD @ 1mg.

I would drop the nolva the day you start the adex, also I totally would consider tapering that at the end, so you wont get any estrogen rebounding.


----------



## Sylar (Sep 7, 2008)

hackskii said:


> Yah, you could run it ED, I just wanted him to use the lowest dose to reverse it, I dont remember if he said he was on a cycle nor not, if he is on then yah, more will probably work quicker, but if he uses enough it will reverse it.
> 
> I just dont like the idea of lowering estrogen too low, it can compromise lipid profile and libido.
> 
> ...


Yeah, if he's not on cycle libido probably will suffer if he runs 1mg ED. If it was me though i wouldn't care about libido, just to get gyno under control and reverse ASAP.

I'm a little paranoid that way though, gyno is one of my biggest fears AAS wise.

Like you say, it's definitely worth tapering off too.


----------



## marco123 (Jun 9, 2008)

Cheers for all the help guys, hackskii i am on cycle, my first, 250mg enanth every 5 days..

Just wanted to add that im probably talkin about tiny lumps here compared to what would usually be classed as 'gyno', like only about the size of a pea under each nipple, and they wer only really mildly tender to touch, just gave me a more irritating feeling as opposed to actual pain or itchiness, cant really describe it.

So Sylar and hackskii, with lumps this size shud i be starting my adex with 1mg ED or EOD? Obviously I have no experience here but Im hopin iv caught them at their very earliest stage, so shud they reduce in size fairly easily?


----------



## marco123 (Jun 9, 2008)

Big thank you to bigacb by the way, ur last post was exactly what Im looking for, a plan to carry me right thru to PCT. I was wondering what I should do over the last 2 weeks after my last jab before starting PCT especially..

Sylar and hackskii, do you agree with bigacb's suggestion?


----------



## Sylar (Sep 7, 2008)

marco123 said:


> So Sylar and hackskii, with lumps this size shud i be starting my adex with 1mg ED or EOD? Obviously I have no experience here but Im hopin iv caught them at their very earliest stage, so shud they reduce in size fairly easily?


Personally, i would run it at 1mg ED for the time being mate, once gyno symptoms subside carry on with .5mg EOD until PCT starts.

What's your PCT setup looking like btw?

PS. Just wondering mate, is Test E all you're running? 250mg E5D is quite a low dose to get gyno off, but backs up my belief that it's better to be safe than sorry and AI's should be run on all cycles.


----------



## marco123 (Jun 9, 2008)

Could I not get an estrogen rebound by suppressing it so much with those doses? And should I not taper down even more in my last 2 weeks before PCT to avoid this? As in the period following my last jab?

Yea ur right mate, it is a very modest dose, thats y i never invested in an A.I. before hand as i was advised that with this dosage i wouldnt see any gyno type symptoms..

And yes its just testoviron alone im running, nothing else. I take it this means im estrogen sensitive then??

For PCT im gona run nolva and clomid for 4 weeks, not sure of the exact doses im gonna use yet cuz theres quite a lot of conflicting info out there but i have a fair idea anyway.. What would u suggest personally? Thanks for your advice btw mate


----------



## Sylar (Sep 7, 2008)

marco123 said:


> Could I not get an estrogen rebound by suppressing it so much with those doses? And should I not taper down even more in my last 2 weeks before PCT to avoid this? As in the period following my last jab?


You'll only get an oestrogen rebound if you stop it dead. I would run at 1mg ED until gyno subsides, 1mg EOD for the next few days, then .5mg EOD right up to the start of PCT. Best to nip gyno in the bud ASAP, IMO..

I'm currently running .5mg of Adex EOD as gyno prevention mate. If i had pea sized gyno lumps i'd be glugging back on Letro.

Keep us updated. :thumbup1:


----------



## marco123 (Jun 9, 2008)

Ok thanks mate. When u say until it subsides, do u mean until the irritating feeling stops or until the lumps disappear completely?

I started my nolva last nite, took 40mg in one dose, and im going to take 20mg morning and night until i start the adex, il maybe drop it to 20mg daily wen i start the adex just for a few days then stop the nolva. That sound ok to you?

The strange irritating feeling has reduced a little already, so im hoping the lumps will reduce in size fairly quickly wen i start the adex.

Il make sure to let everyone kno how i get on wen i start the adex. Thanks again for ur time


----------



## Sylar (Sep 7, 2008)

Yes mate, i would run it 1mg ED until the lumps are completely gone, then taper down to 1mg EOD, then .5mg EOD right up to PCT.

I would just run Nolva until you start Adex like Hacks says. Adex will kick in pretty quick and has a half life of 72 hours.

Here's a profile of Arimidex if you want a read:



> *Arimidex*
> 
> *
> Chemical Name: **Anastrozole*
> ...


----------



## marco123 (Jun 9, 2008)

Nice 1, thanks very much mate


----------



## Sylar (Sep 7, 2008)

marco123 said:


> Nice 1, thanks very much mate


You may want to invest in a pill cutter if you haven't already got one mate. It can a bit tricky cutting those small tabs neatly in half with a knife.


----------



## bigacb (Nov 13, 2007)

Yup ebays the place ive just purchased one for £1.25 :thumb: .


----------



## Sylar (Sep 7, 2008)

bigacb said:


> Yup ebays the place ive just purchased one for £1.25 :thumb: .


That's where i got mine. One of the best things i bought off ebay! 

Although, i did see the exact same pill cutter in my local chemist a few days later for 99p! That kind of p!ssed on my bonfire lol :cursing:


----------



## bigacb (Nov 13, 2007)

Sylar said:


> That's where i got mine. One of the best things i bought off ebay!
> 
> Although, i did see the exact same pill cutter in my local chemist a few days later for 99p! That kind of p!ssed on my bonfire lol :cursing:


lol ive not even looked around for one it was the first place that popped into mind.


----------



## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Estrogen rebounding wont be an issue if you are going to start PCT, once the nolva and clomid are in there you wont have an issue with rebounding.

I would drop the nolva once you are in with the adex though, nolva will lower blood plasma levels of most AI's with the exception of aromasin.

Yah, I suggested EOD because you were running such a low dose of test, but hell, 1mg wont kill you and it should remove that lump pretty quick.


----------



## marco123 (Jun 9, 2008)

Hi guys, my adex arrived today so iv taken my first 1mg dose. The nolva helped resolve the irritating feeling within 4 or 5 days which was good.

I have a small collection of lumpy tissue under each nipple, not quite 'lumps' so to speak, so im hoping the AI can reverse this, hackskii, do you think this is likely given the time frame? Its been about 10 days since i first noticed the irritation in my nipples


----------



## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

10 days in you probably should not have problems.

I know a dude that had massive lumps, and reversed it with adex, you will need some time.

I am quite sure things will go in your favor very soon.

Dont stress and dont play with them.

Playing with your nipples can elivate prolactin, which is the lactation hormone......Leave your tits alone, dont let anyone play with them......................lol............Sorry, just being playfull.

You should be fine mate.

Relax and dont drive up cortisol....................Stress hormone..............Its catabolic....lol


----------



## ano1987 (Oct 17, 2008)

so if u have gyno symptoms eg itchy nips or if you have small lump you should start arimidex at 1mg ed until lump goes? or un til itchynes stops? i thought it was o.25 all the way?


----------



## Sylar (Sep 7, 2008)

ano1987 said:


> so if u have gyno symptoms eg itchy nips or if you have small lump you should start arimidex at 1mg ed until lump goes? or un til itchynes stops? i thought it was o.25 all the way?


The OP has pea size gyno lumps under each nipple, you definitely need an AI when you get to that stage. I would run Letro if on cycle, but Adex is good too and acts faster than Letro.

As for the dose, people run .25mg or .5mg of Adex for gyno prevention, not reversal.


----------



## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

I think letro is a bit strong for an AI during, it is like hitting a fly with a hammer.

It crushed my libido, gave me stiff joints, and I would have to run a ton of adex to get that, remember it can decrease estrogen by something like over 80%, that will hinder gains.

Adex is fine on cycle, but if you cant get that, then low dose letro.

But, letro is the **** for reversing gyno.


----------



## Sylar (Sep 7, 2008)

In clinical studies Letro has been shown to reduce oestrogen levels in women with breast cancer by 98% or more. There's no way i would run Letro for prevention, only for reversal.


----------



## marco123 (Jun 9, 2008)

hackskii said:


> 10 days in you probably should not have problems.
> 
> I know a dude that had massive lumps, and reversed it with adex, you will need some time.
> 
> ...


----------



## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

It may pop up in a day or even two, taking any AI wont take it away as fast as it came, you get get gyno pretty damn quick, but you cant get rid of it as fast as it came.


----------

