# TBOL ---Diary



## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

Hello everyone. After much deliberation i have decided to do a 6-7 week Tbol only cycle. I will be consuming 50mg ed along with 800mg of Milk thisle.

I will be doing a 4 week pct with clomid also. I also have some armidex on hand just incase.

So to clarify:

Weeks 1-6 Tbol 50mg ed

(I will asses how i feel after 3 weeks to see if i need to adjust my dosage)

PCT

week 1 Clomid 50mg ed

week 2 "

Week 3 Clomid 25mg ed

Week 4 Clomid 15mg ed

After my PCT I will give it 2-3 weeks and get my blood tested.

I am not expecting miracles but i would like to see 10-14 of muscle gain by the end of all this.

Any advice from people who have done Tbol would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

nearly forgot, her are my stats:

Sex: yes please! (male)

Age:26

height: 5ft 9

Weight: 164 lbs

Blonde hair, blue eyes...etc


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

*Day 1*

I have taken my first dose of 20mg this morning. Obviously nothing to report yet. I have got legs tonight so will walking like a duck tmoz!

I will take the other 30mg tonight.

O on a side note i have given up alchohol through out this cycle.


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## Ollie B (Mar 14, 2007)

i would add nolva aswell in your pct


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

I have got some Nolvadex left. However i found it killed my sex drive and did not raise my LH. I might add it but to be honest i react really well to clomid on its own.


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## fits (Feb 3, 2004)

10 to 14 lbs is a big ask in 6 weeks with this i think, but good luck, ill be following your progress :beer1:


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## Robsta (Oct 2, 2005)

You will not put 10lbs of muscle on in 10-14 weeks with tbol mate....


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## Five-O (May 21, 2006)

robsta9 said:


> You will not put 10lbs of muscle on in 10-14 weeks with tbol mate....


agree, its such a weak compound, you might add a few and obviously like anything, feel stronger and fuller.

Hope it does go well though mate and good luck. Ill be honest, I wouldn't even personally bother with bloods after such a light cycle.


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

I'm not disputing you guys as i know you have many years experience in these matters, but i have read many stories of 10 to 14lbs muscle gained using Tbol only. I guess time will tell and if things don't go so well then i will consider the protocol Hackskii recommended.

On a side note i have upped my protein to 200g a day and started taking the creatine i have knocking about

*Day 2*

*
*I had a great leg workout yesterday, mainly because i trained on my own, i would say that when i go with my mates it becomes quite distracting and i don't get a decent workout.

I slept so well last night! i woke up at 11 this morning which i would normally never do. Maybe it was Tbol but i doubt it, probably coz i had a shower and **** before bed lol

Anyways day off today got to fix the other halves car :-(

Tmoz i got back, biceps, traps.

Thanks for all the advice :beer1:


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## Robsta (Oct 2, 2005)

I'd seriously consider upping the dose also...tbol is much more effective at the 70-80 mg per day dose...

We've just had a thread on tbol, you can see it here

http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/steroid-testosterone-information/20124-start-tbol-course-tomorrow.html


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## Aftershock (Jan 28, 2004)

The protein seems low to me as well. At your bodyweight I would be consuming about 4000cals a day and at least 300g of Protein for optimum growth.

Try and get at least 200g of protein from whole food and supplement the rest with the shakes.

I agree with Robsta 70mg will be much more effective than 50mg


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

Mickus seemed to gain 18lbs in 6 weeks so why is 10lb impossible?

I thought it was 1-1.5 gram of protein per 1lb of body weight?

like i said i may up my dosage it just might be a bit earlier (Will see how i feel)


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

I think one thing to take into consideration here is woodey had low T levels and ended up putting on some belly fat.

His prolactin was through the roof and tanked his T levels.

Being low on T for so long did some damage to his physique.

Now that his estrogen and prolactin are under control and T levels in the more normal range this new spike in hormones might do a very good job.

If he keeps his estrogen in control and prolactin in control, along with his elivated hormon levels with the tbol then who knows?

At the very least he will be super motivated and morso than before to build his body up.

Good luck Woody


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## Robsta (Oct 2, 2005)

he may have put 18lbs on mate, but it wasn't solid muscle....you just don't get 1.5 stone gains solid on tbol....don't want to burst your bubble but it won't happen dude...I hope you get good gains, but if you wanted weight putting on, dbol would have been better choice


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## Ollie B (Mar 14, 2007)

would it be a bad idea to stack orals? Like Tbol and Winny.?


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

robsta9 said:


> he may have put 18lbs on mate, but it wasn't solid muscle....you just don't get 1.5 stone gains solid on tbol....don't want to burst your bubble but it won't happen dude...I hope you get good gains, but if you wanted weight putting on, dbol would have been better choice


But d-bol aromitizes pretty heavily and woody had some hormonal problems so aromitization should be avoided with him even if gains are compromised.

I would try and lean up some while I gained some muscle.


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## Robsta (Oct 2, 2005)

Ollie B said:


> would it be a bad idea to stack orals? Like Tbol and Winny.?


Not great on the liver mate


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

That is precisely why i have gone along with Tbol rather than doing Dbol. I am very estrogen sensitive.

I hope the combination of: Tbol, Creatine, and more food will give me some positive results as i have trained for the last 4 years with **** poor results!

As Hackski mentioned my hormones are now in check and it's now catch-up time for the years i lost.

I will post up some pics tonight, try to look past the big scar on my stomach i know it looks unsightly now but i have been assured by my plastic surgeon that it should fade alot.

One thing i will promise you guys is i will give it my all, if my results are not great then i know not to do it again and then rethink things but i really don't think this will do any harm or be a waste of time.

Thanks for the support Hackskii, i think i owe you a pint or 2 if you ever come over to the UK ;-)


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)




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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Just a pint or two? 

Hey, if the results are not working then we will just tweak some things wheather in your diet or training.

I posted this before I saw the pictures.

Ok, my advice to you would be to do basic compound exercises, sticking to the basics and getting stronger each workout or week.


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

been doing basic compounds for years now:

My routine looks like this:

Mon Chest, Triceps, Shoulders: bench press, Flys, Dips, Military press.

Tue OFF

Wed legs, abs (when i can do them again) Squats, leg press, leg extensions, Seated leg curl.

Thur OFF

Fri:Back,Biceps, traps: Rows, pull ups, Dumbbell bent over rows, Shrugs, Chin ups, Cable curls

Sat off

Sun: Cardio

Hope that all makes sense. My body seems to look much more toned when i take Armidex or SERMS which makes me think the puffynes is estrogen related.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Bump for some more time.


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

*Day 3*

Stood on the scales this morning and i have gone up 3lb, this is most likely due to the extra food more than anything. I had a good workout today, I lifted heavier than i have ever done before on all exercises apart from chins as this exercise seems to nark my stomach a little. Has anyone noticed Tbol working after only a few days or is it just placebo?

One thing i have noticed over the last few days that you probably don't want to hear is that i have some evil evil farts! lol


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## Five-O (May 21, 2006)

mate, I would have waited before using gear, you have so much to gain before you even contemplated em. Sorry if thats a flame but how long have you been training exactley?


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

I have been training over 3 years. Now i can't say i have not made progress over the last few years, even with my Testosterone being 4 nmol for years i managed to get from 10st 4lbs to 12st.

I have just been deprived of testosterone for so long that it will take me years to get back to what i was supposed to be like. To me this unacceptable and if i have to resort to medical intervention then so be it.

One thing about my body that has not let me down is my mind, so i am going to use every means in my power to get back to normal!


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## Five-O (May 21, 2006)

cwoody123 said:


> I have been training over 3 years. Now i can't say i have not made progress over the last few years, even with my Testosterone being 4 nmol for years i managed to get from 10st 4lbs to 12st.
> 
> I have just been deprived of testosterone for so long that it will take me years to get back to what i was supposed to be like. To me this unacceptable and if i have to resort to medical intervention then so be it.
> 
> One thing about my body that has not let me down is my mind, so i am going to use every means in my power to get back to normal!


Why have you been deprived of testosterone bud? could you post your diet up please


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## Robsta (Oct 2, 2005)

Are those pics up to date mate?


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

yea i took them yesterday. What i have found just recently while taking SERMS and Armidex after a couple of weeks my chest and hips chisel out, i have been off Armidex for a month now and my body seems to be holding water again, its really frustrating as i now make sure i drink **** loads of water, i avoid salt etc... i truly believe that i have a high affinity for estrogen. you should all see the difference after i finish my PCT


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## Five-O (May 21, 2006)

cwoody123 said:


> yea i took them yesterday. What i have found just recently while taking SERMS and Armidex after a couple of weeks my chest and hips chisel out, i have been off Armidex for a month now and my body seems to be holding water again, its really frustrating as i now make sure i drink **** loads of water, i avoid salt etc... i truly believe that i have a high affinity for estrogen. you should all see the difference after i finish my PCT


again;

Why have you been deprived of testosterone bud?


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## Magic Torch (May 30, 2005)

cwoody123 said:


> I am not expecting miracles but i would like to see 10-14 of muscle gain by the end of all this.


He may (Mikus) have put on 10-14 pounds mate - no-one disputes that, but not 10-14 pounds of MUSCLE. Slightly differnt.

You'll be fine though, just follow a sound diet and work hard in the gym.


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## chrisj22 (Mar 22, 2006)

I mean, your taking them already, but I think you have got a lot more size to put on naturally before using gear IMHO.


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## shorty (Mar 13, 2007)

chrisj22 said:


> I mean, your taking them already, but I think you have got a lot more size to put on naturally before using gear IMHO.


Chris is right here...but you've started so good luck with it...

just a few questions mate..

1) how old are you

2) how long have you been training

3) can you post your diet for us to look at

just out of interest.... cheers mate


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## shorty (Mar 13, 2007)

ignore the 1st question mate.... just seen it (glasses are on now)


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

Five-O said:


> again;
> 
> Why have you been deprived of testosterone bud?


I was diagnosed 2 years ago with Pituitary tumour called a "prolactinoma" Prolactin in high enough quanties will shut down LH & FSH production. Normal levels for a male is below 500-700 nmol, mine was 33,000. I believe i have had this condition since i was 17-18, it has ravaged my body from balloning me up to 18st and causing severe gyno, at one point my breasts were lactating!

At 19 i managed to go on a severe diet and loose 6 stone form almost eating nothing, i did get there in a year but found that my skin was very elastic after and my gyno was even more evident to see. I eventually got funding from the NHS to have gyno surgery which happend about 5 years ago now. All in all my life was just ****, i knew there was a problem but i could not put my finger on it.

It wasnt it until i meet my now finace that i realised that my sex drive and dysfunction was not normal, also i had very little masculin features, i only had to shave once every 3 months.

My finacee told me to go to the doctors which i eventually did, he ran some blood tests to check my testosterone, they came back at 4 mnol when they should be above 13 mnol at the very least, he refered me to an endo who done more tests, thats when the prolactin abnormality came to light. They started me imediatly on a dopamine agonist called "Cabergoline" Dopamine is the antagonist to prolactin so the medication quickly reduced my levels to around 150 mnol. in 2 years i have developed facial hair and a keen interest in sex etc... all the things a male should be.

My T was was hovering around 12 mnol and with Hackskii help i did a clomid stimulation test to see if i could help things along, after a 4 week cycle my T went up to 30 mnol and has since settled at 21 mnol and stayed there.

I know its a bit of a long strange story but it may give you an insight into my freaky past and my current mindset.


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

shorty said:


> Chris is right here...but you've started so good luck with it...
> 
> just a few questions mate..
> 
> ...


I have been training for over 3 years.

Am:

Bowl of weatabix

Protein shake

Mid morning:

Ceral bar

Coffee

Protein shake

Lunch:

Sweet potato

Tuna in low fat mayo

Salad

Afternoon snack:

protein shake

Chocolate bar

Coffee

Dinner:

Beef with rice or chicken in wholemeal pasta

Before bed:

Pint of milk

Banana


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## shorty (Mar 13, 2007)

that diet looks more for cutting than gaining....

plus the shakes seem to be your main source of protein...get some eggs and more fish in there along with cottage cheese to give you extra whole food protein...

ditch the choccy bar mate ...empty cals there!!


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## mickus (Aug 30, 2007)

I think your diet needs some more work lad, you are wanting to bulk and I see a seriousl lack of complex carbs in there plus a lack of protein from solid food sources...

Supps are great but are not an exchange for the real deal....

If you can something like this is best,

1. Oats 100g with Cashews Bananas and incorporate whey into it 1 scoop

2. 4 scrambled eggs always easy to stomach here

3. 100g to 200g Chicken or Tune or Steak with either Potatoes or Rice or brown bread

4. Same as 3

5. MRT

6. Shake after training with carbs and protein

7. Same as 4 and 3

8. Shake or some more eggs before bed

You will seriously get that tbol working alot better for you if your diet in in check lad...

Best of luck


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

Ok looks like i am going shopping tonight!

"1. Oats 100g with Cashews Bananas and incorporate whey into it 1 scoop"

Is this made using hot water to make a poridge like substance?

"5. MRT"

Whats this?

I have access to a shed load of eggs so will try to incorporate more.

Thanks for the top advice!!


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## Ollie B (Mar 14, 2007)

use cold water with the whey and oats mate.

MRT is a meal replacement i believe


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## andye (Jan 30, 2006)

when im on a bulking cycle i consume about 350-400gms of protein and about 4500-5000 cals per day and im only 190 lbs.

the most ive gained after a cycle was about 8-10lbs. ive hit 20lb whilst on cycle but it soon drops off after the cycle ends.

it is very hard for the human body to hold onto over a stone of muscle in such a short period of time, even with great genetics and natural high test levels.

you say you have low test levels so it maybe even harder for you to hold onto any muscle.

another thing.. eating 200gms of protein ed WILL not produce any where near 14lbs of muscle in 6 weeks even with a shed load of gear.

get your diet sorted mate, and set your targets a little lower, that way you may be happy with your results on the end


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

*Day 4*

Well today i seem to be sore all over, I had my Back, Traps, Bicep day yesterday and everthing feels sore. My chest and triceps are still a bit sore from last wed. I think swapping to this split routine will be much better for me and should help stop me overtraining. I am going to continue going to the gym on my own as i seem to work much harder. Still ****ed off about the way my body seems to hold water, i can't spend my life taking AI to combat this. I was thinking of trying a natrual duretic, any info on this will be much appreciated? Thanks! O before i forget the scales say i am up another pound, that puts me at 11st 13.8


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

I had low testosterone, my testosterone is well within the normal range now.

I thought the amount some one would consume is down to genetics more than anything. Some people are hard gainers and some people like my self are not, I am not disputing that my diet needs sorting out but whether i would have to consume in the region 4000 -5000 calories is surley down to genetics and not a one shoe fits all forumla.


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## andye (Jan 30, 2006)

bad genetics or good genetics, you aint gonna gain much on your diet, that is fact. 200 gms of protein is what is recommended for natural guys who want to build up slower not for steroid users trying to build large amounts of muscle.

my advice to you is eat till you cant move if you want to gain well of this course

some olypian body bulders only gain 14lbs per year and they have amazing genetics, eat upto 10k calories per day and take a load of gear.

aall im saying mate, is your goals are set far too high. you may gain 14lbs + but you will loose alot of it during pct.


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## Five-O (May 21, 2006)

cwoody123 said:


> I was diagnosed 2 years ago with Pituitary tumour called a "prolactinoma" Prolactin in high enough quanties will shut down LH & FSH production. Normal levels for a male is below 500-700 nmol, mine was 33,000. I believe i have had this condition since i was 17-18, it has ravaged my body from balloning me up to 18st and causing severe gyno, at one point my breasts were lactating!
> 
> At 19 i managed to go on a severe diet and loose 6 stone form almost eating nothing, i did get there in a year but found that my skin was very elastic after and my gyno was even more evident to see. I eventually got funding from the NHS to have gyno surgery which happend about 5 years ago now. All in all my life was just ****, i knew there was a problem but i could not put my finger on it.
> 
> ...


Thanks for clearing that up mate, and good on you for doing something about it, sounds like you've got a very understanding fiance aswell.


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## Conrad1436114525 (Mar 3, 2007)

cwoody123 said:


> I was diagnosed 2 years ago with Pituitary tumour called a "prolactinoma" Prolactin in high enough quanties will shut down LH & FSH production. Normal levels for a male is below 500-700 nmol, mine was 33,000. I believe i have had this condition since i was 17-18, it has ravaged my body from balloning me up to 18st and causing severe gyno, at one point my breasts were lactating!
> 
> At 19 i managed to go on a severe diet and loose 6 stone form almost eating nothing, i did get there in a year but found that my skin was very elastic after and my gyno was even more evident to see. I eventually got funding from the NHS to have gyno surgery which happend about 5 years ago now. All in all my life was just ****, i knew there was a problem but i could not put my finger on it.
> 
> ...


just want to say that this is a really brave post. I developed a really bad eating disorder and lost over two stone when i left home and i have always been too embarrased by it to talk about it. Ill post photos of then and now when my membership to this site hits a years old so you can all see. im glad your on the mend. Nice to see people like Hackskii really making a difference in poeple lives. This is what makes this forum above so many others really helpfull. Good post and good luck mate.


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## Five-O (May 21, 2006)

Meal 1; 100g oats, 50g whey in water (all blended together) + some fruit if desirable - banana thrown in there or something.

Meal 2; Tuna/mayo/sweetcorn

Meal 3; 100g oats/50g whey - blended up in a shake.

Meal 4; Chicken breast/baked patato or rice

Meal 5; same as meal 3 or if PWO shake; 50g Whey and 80-100g of either dextrose or Waxy maize starch

Meal 6; something similar to meal 4.

Meal 7; Bedtime meal (very important) - cottage cheese and almonds or flax oil or udo's oil. (Something to slow the digestion of protein over a few hours)

Just something similar to mine.

The oats and whey shakes come to around 600kcals, Id put the cals at maybe 3,000+ on this plan.

Just an idea, not a you must do this diet plan


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

Thanks all these seem like some very good food suggestions. One thing have noticed since i have had my T back is that i don't really have a huge appettite but i understand i have keep chucking this stuff down my neck if i want to see results. I must admit im not a big egg fan either but i think as long as i change what i am eating every now and then i should not get to sick of things.

Thanks for all the advice im going to buy the bits tonight and start my new eating plan tmoz.


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## andye (Jan 30, 2006)

i cant stand eggs as well mate, ive eaten them once in my life.

another thing you can do, add some nuts or peanut butter to your whey shakes, this will stop it being absorbed quickly. but dont do this pwo, as you want to spike insulin at this time


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

I for one prefere whole foods over shakes, MRE, pre-packaged meals, etc.

But if you cant get in the desired protein a day then sure supplement that, but again it is just as it says supplementation.

I make things easy on myself, I bring all my food into work every day, now granted I dont eat as much as you guys but on Sundays I BBQ all my chicken up for the week all at once, then I put them in baggies and just toss them into my lunch.

I have a rice cooker too and can cook up a weeks worth and toss them in bags too.

Half the time I eat my food cold as I am too damn lazy to go heat it up.

One thing is PWO nutrition, that for sure should be a shake and a simple carb.

I would monitor your weight to make sure you are not gaining too much too fast as that wont all be muscle. Sure overfeeding is anabolic but it also can make you fat too. Lean gains are what we are looking for here, especially in light of the fact that t-bol wont give you the monster gains like testosterone would, but then gain you do have to be careful in light of your current and past hormonal crisis.

You will get there woody, it will take some time but enjoy the ride on your journey.


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## andye (Jan 30, 2006)

i gained 7lbs in the first week last cycle but it was all water that came off at the end.


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

*Day 5*

Ok so today was the start of my new eating campaign.

so far this morning i have had:

Brekkie:

1 scoop of Creatine

1 Shake with 100g of oats, 1 scoop of peanut butter, 1 scoop of whey all mixed up in water.

(A 100g of oats is a **** load!, i just about managed to drink it)

11's:

4 eggs scrambled with some cottage cheese

(This was actually very nice)

For lunch i have:

Rice, veg and steak.

I weighed 11st 13 this morning so no change today. Last night i felt really tired around 9pm so went for a nap, i ended up waking up at 8am this morning, i have not slept like that in a long time.

I have got Chest triceps and shoulders tonight which i am looking forward too.

Hackskii when you bag up your food do you freeze it? This sounds like a much better option as i am quite lazy to cook things day in day out.


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## Five-O (May 21, 2006)

cwoody123 said:


> *Day 5*
> 
> Ok so today was the start of my new eating campaign.
> 
> ...


good going mate, continue like that and you will see some real changes and good weight gain. Id have added some flax oil or almonds with the eggs/cottage cheese, and then treat it as a protein/fat meal.

You may want to try buying some ground oats from myprotein.com, not as gritty and blend up a little better.


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

Ok will do. I have noticed that oats actaully has quite a bit of protein:

http://www.calorie-count.com/calories/item/20038.html

Is flax oil a photoestrogen and would that contribute to puffy nipples?


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## Littleluke (Nov 21, 2005)

You have an intersting story mate. Make sure you only run the tbol for 6 weeks. Orals are liver toxic remember so plenty of water, milk thistle and use some cranberry extract for your kidneys. Apart from that good luck with it, glad you've sorted your test problem.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Get some fish oils instead, much better Omega 3 profile and they are actually cheaper.

I dont freeze my stuff I just toss it in the fridge.

Today I got a bag of chicken and a bag of rice and vegetables.

I just eat out of the bags and when I am done I toss them.

All finger food, hard boilded eggs, apples, nuts, it is stupidly easy.


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

Thats sound easier!

I already take 10 omega 3's a day so should i just take 5 of these before bed with my meal?


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## Five-O (May 21, 2006)

cwoody123 said:


> Thats sound easier!
> 
> I already take 10 omega 3's a day so should i just take 5 of these before bed with my meal?


I feel flax or Udo's has a little more to offer than taking caps, and lets not forget, the point of taking like 15ml of flax oil is to also bump up the calories also, with caps your not really getting any compared to taking the liquid on a tablespoon.

It won't lead to puffy nips mate, id be very suprised if it did.

I use flax a couple of times a day, 2 tablespoons is like 30g of healthy fats and nearly 250 kcals, I also take omega 3 - about twice a day, 3 caps a time.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Five-O said:


> I feel flax or Udo's has a little more to offer than taking caps, and lets not forget, the point of taking like 15ml of flax oil is to also bump up the calories also, with caps your not really getting any compared to taking the liquid on a tablespoon.
> 
> It won't lead to puffy nips mate, id be very suprised if it did.
> 
> I use flax a couple of times a day, 2 tablespoons is like 30g of healthy fats and nearly 250 kcals, I also take omega 3 - about twice a day, 3 caps a time.


Watch out mate, I am offering a heated dabate on this issue if you like.

Flax is crap for men, terrible Omega 3 profile and needs to be converted to get the benefits of the Omega 3.

Fish oils are far superior and offer additional fat burning properties and mental health due to the DHA.

Flax needs ALA to convert it to Omega 3 so there is probably 10 times the loss due to that.

Odo's offers both 6 and 9's but then agian a typical American diet is about 1/10 to 1/25 Omega 3 to Omega 6 and the ideal amount would be closer to 1/1 to 1/4 so adding Udo's that has Omega 6's in there only pushes the range or doest not aid in bringing it into range.

Fish oils are suggested for great reason.

First you will bring the ratio back down to healthier values.

Second the Omega 3's in fish oils are superior to that of Flax.

If you like I can go into some pretty deep details here.

Udo's is fine if you only ate raw and never had processed foods, the perfect diet, then the addition of Udo's would be welcome but with the vegetable oil society we live in and cook in the ratio is way out there.

Fish oils will offer you the benefits of insulin sensitivity too and this along with the inflammation going on now days is almost mandatory in the diet.

I have said this once and I will say it a thousand times. If there was only one supplement you could take only, that would be fish oils.

No other oil by any standard offers the benefits of fish oils, period.

And I am not talking about other oils like Kril or anything else.


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## Five-O (May 21, 2006)

hackskii said:


> Watch out mate, I am offering a heated dabate on this issue if you like.
> 
> Flax is crap for men, terrible Omega 3 profile and needs to be converted to get the benefits of the Omega 3.
> 
> ...


Hacks, sorry if that post disrepected you but you can't seriously think you can have a pro/fat meal with a tin of tuna and 5 caps of omega-3?

Im not debating whats better or whats worse, the point I was making was that I utilize flax/almonds/udo's as a part of my meals to get extra calories.

You can then supplement with extra omega's at other times during the day like I said I do. Atm Im actually using a omega 3-6-9 blend and not flax, but like I say, its more for calories than anything.

I aim for 500 cals per meal, and with 50g whey and 2 tablespoons of flax/or whatever im using, were talking around that figure (500kcals)


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Five-O said:


> Hacks, sorry if that post disrepected you but you can't seriously think you can have a pro/fat meal with a tin of tuna and 5 caps of omega-3?
> 
> Im not debating whats better or whats worse, the point I was making was that I utilize flax/almonds/udo's as a part of my meals to get extra calories.
> 
> ...


Heee heee, I didnt notice that there was any disrespect there.

I love to get into a debate on this issue as I have done many times before, it would only take a few minutes grabbing the information and pasting it here.

But there is so much information it is pretty impressive if you took the time to read.

In this months Mens fitness is dedicated to about 5 pages on fish oils.

Flax oil is not the right ratio and is missing all sorts of key elements, plus you would need almost 10 times the amount to exert the effect that fish oils provide.

Here is why, taken from the ol ChefX himself:

*Fish vs. Flax*

The optimal intake of LA compared with ALA appears critical for the metabolism of omega-3 fatty acids. An increase in AA, EPA, and DHA leads to an increase in membrane fluidity, alters the structure of the membrane receptors, and can have other beneficial effects associated with the omega-3 fatty acids. They also play a role in the regulation of cell surface expression, cell-cell interactions, and cytokine release.10 A ratio of 1:4 (LA:ALA) or less is recommended for conversion of ALA to longer chain metabolites (EPA and DHA).9 This is an important concept for vegetarians, whose diets are often much richer in LA. *The intake of 3 grams per day to 4 grams per day of ALA is equivalent to 0.3 grams per day of EPA with optimal elongation. (This means you need 10 times as much flax to get the same benefits as fish aka 120g of flax oil or an additional 1000 calories of flax in order to match the benefits of just 12g of fish oils aka 108 calories added*

ALA(from flax) does not appear to be comparable with its biological effects, compared with EPA and DHA found in fish oil. It appears that the EPA and DHA from marine oils are more rapidly incorporated into plasma and membrane lipids. Algae and some fungi are also capable of forming omega-3 fatty acids de novo, and the DHA from algae supplements needs to be explored further.

*Here is a snip from an article on eicasinoids:*

Drug companies are racing to develop new patentable drugs--ones that affect the downstream enzymes that control eicosanoid production from arachidonic acid. Overlooked in this frenzy by the drug companies seeking new and more expensive drugs to go downstream to modify eicosanoid synthesis, is that there is an existing "drug" that can achieve all of these benefits without any side effects. This is because it goes upstream to modify eicosanoid production by reducing arachidonic acid levels. That "drug" is high-dose fish oil since the elevated levels of EPA will reduce the production of "bad" eicosanoids (such as PGE2 and LTB4) derived from arachidonic acid.

Ok, in a nutshell eicasinoid production comes from fats, and they are the EFA type. With the correct ratio of Omega 3 to Omega 6 fatty acids eicasinoid production works efficient and makes things nice and in ballance.

Basicly eicasinoids are chemical hormones that control many things in the body but we will just talk about inflammation.

AA in the body is elivated typically in the American bodies. AA is a pre-curser for inflammation and specifically Prostaglandin #2 with an excess of PG2 and high insulin or insulin resistance there is a great likelyhood of cardiovascular disease.

OK, now the one supplement that lowers PG2 in the body is Omega 3 fatty acids, not only does fish oils have the higest amount of Omega 3 fatty acids but taking them will make you more insulin sensitive.

So, as you can see, just taking in an oil to increase calories might not be the best apporach unless you are adding in extra virgin olive oil.

So, get your Omega 3's from fish oils (I take 12 a day), and if you have to add cals then take extra virgin olive oil.

You can see flax wont supply you with the amount of Omega 3 to help ballance out the ratio of 3 to 6, and Udo's adds in Omega 6 in their oils so that the ratio is not put tward the healthier ratio.

The Omega 9's that Udo's has is already in the olive oil I stated above that you should be addin in.

I got a good article on that one too.

Sorry Jimbo if you took an offense to my post I was trying to draw you in for a debate on my favorite subject....heeee heeeee

Hell the old man is bored.


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

**** me your like the Steven Hawkins of the fish oil world!


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

*Day 6*

yesterday before training i had another Oat shake, after training i had protein shake with a lucozade (Not together) but at around the same time. At 8pm i had sweet potato with tuna and sweetcorn. Before bed i had half a tub of cottage cheese and a pint of milk.

yesterdays training was good, i have gone up on everything apart from shoulder press.

No weight increase today.


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## invisiblekid (Jun 18, 2006)

hackskii said:


> Heee heee, I didnt notice that there was any disrespect there.
> 
> I love to get into a debate on this issue as I have done many times before, it would only take a few minutes grabbing the information and pasting it here.


These debates benefit everyone on the board - without a doubt.

It's a great feature of this board that name calling and insult slinging don't start.


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

One thing that i am noticing at the moment is that i want to sleep all the time, i had a nap at lunch and fell fast asleep, i ended up waking up over an hour past my lunch break. At the moment i feel like a zombie and my body is craving sugar. I will resist but has anyone else noticed they get tired taking TBol? I mean i hope i have not just been given a course of "Night all"!


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## Five-O (May 21, 2006)

cwoody123 said:


> *Day 6*
> 
> yesterday before training i had another Oat shake, after training i had protein shake with a lucozade (Not together) but at around the same time. At 8pm i had sweet potato with tuna and sweetcorn. Before bed i had half a tub of cottage cheese and a pint of milk.
> 
> ...


Im impressed your starting to eat a lot better, you'll reap the rewards matey


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## Five-O (May 21, 2006)

cwoody123 said:


> One thing that i am noticing at the moment is that i want to sleep all the time, i had a nap at lunch and fell fast asleep, i ended up waking up over an hour past my lunch break. At the moment i feel like a zombie and my body is craving sugar. I will resist but has anyone else noticed they get tired taking TBol? I mean i hope i have not just been given a course of "Night all"!


Try some milk thistle, the liver does take a battering on orals, tbol is fairly low on the toxicitiy level but its working twice as hard break those things down, plenty of water to help and flush the toxins aswell.


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

Yea been taking 800mg of milk thistle a day. I have been drinking about 4 liters of water a day so no probs there (apart from having to go to the loo 20 times a day!)

I am actually enjoying the food i am eating at the moment, most of it tastes great, i have also made an effort to remove things liek ketchup and mayo from my diet.

I had a bright idea earlier and chucked my oats into our blender, they came out in tiny little grains to that saves a few quid! Can buy some more cottage cheese now 

Thanks for all your help!


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

cwoody123 said:


> **** me your like the Steven Hawkins of the fish oil world!


I have so much information on this stuff that most people won't even read.

Mostly due to eicasinoid production.

Ironically there is a test that is called the SIP test and that is Silent Inflammation Profile.

What this test does (brand new and not offered most places and they don't even know about it) is tell you the ratio of Aracadonic Acid to Eicosapentaenoic Acid or AA to EPA it basically is a Omega-3 Fatty Acid Profile Test

This test will determine the health risk of the cardiovascular system as well as overall health risk.

I will explain this in more detail if someone wants.


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## bkotey (Mar 29, 2007)

Great post! Keep the diary going too! Got my T-Bol ready, jus planning my diet and making sure all my bases are covered to maKe sure i get the most from it. Will be watching with interest


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

yea post up mate, i am not sure how much i would understand but i am sure other people now and in the future will value the info ;-)


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Silent Information Profile (SIP) test basicly looks at the ratio between Aracadonic Acid to Eicosapentaenoic Acid (AA and EPA).

This test was designed by a Doctor named Barry Sears, he is the dude that wrote all the Zone books.

In a nutshell by looking at the amount or ratio of AA to EPA they can determine some health risk or good health.

They looked at all the cultures and did this SIP test, they found that the Japeneese were the lowest candidates for heart risk and looked at their SIP test. Then they checked Americans.

What it does is give you a number, the lower the number up until a point is where you want to be.

So, they give you the test, judge where you are, then add fish oils to lower the SIP test.

It takes about 30 days for the fish oils to do their magic on lowering the SIP.

Once you get to where they want you to be (how ever many fish oil tabs a day you need) then you stop at that amount.

Idea here is this.

Eskimo's for example had probably the lowest due to all the fish oils and no animal fats. But if it gets too low immune system is compromised some.

So, the Eskimo's might have the least risk of heart disease, alzheimers and the like but an infection could do some harm.

AA in the body is elivated with certain foods and exercise due to some trauma of the muscle.

It is necessary for growth due to a certain amount of inflammation needed for repairs.

Just like X-Factor being sold as a steroid alternative using AA.

AA proably supplemented would work to a certain extent but it would increase inflammation.

Inflammation in the presence of insulin is really not a good thing.

Like anti-inflammatories not being helpfull in gaining muscle mass, so in a sense anti-inflammatory products should not be used when building muscle.

But inflammation can also hinder repair and increase pain.

Fish oils lower the SIP more than anything.

Most Americans are about 10 times higher than the Japeneese.

I can get the article as this was most in my head and probably not the best way of being written and most doctors wont even recognize this type of test or application for lowering the SIP but it does have some merrit if you read into it.

Sears is a brilliant doctor, way ahead of his time.


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

*Day 7*

I weighed in today at 12st exactly i am slightly worried that i am gaining fat, i don't look as if i have, i guess time will tell. Over the last couple of days i have been feeling really hot all the time.

Do you guys think it would be a good idea to start upping my training to every day rather than every other day? I.e. like this:

Mon: Chest, Tricpes, Shoulders

Tue: Legs,Abs

Wed: Back, Biceps, Traps

Thur: OFF

Fri: Chest, Triceps, shoulders

Sat: Back, Biceps, Traps

Sun: OFF

Or would this be to much?


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## invisiblekid (Jun 18, 2006)

Too much imo. Stick to a 3 or 4 day split. If you're concerned about fat amend your diet slightly or add in some cardio (which is always a good thing).


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## Robsta (Oct 2, 2005)

cwoody123 said:


> *Day 7*
> 
> I weighed in today at 12st exactly i am slightly worried that i am gaining fat, i don't look as if i have, i guess time will tell. Over the last couple of days i have been feeling really hot all the time.
> 
> ...


hitting the same bp 2 x per week isn't a good idea imo


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## Robsta (Oct 2, 2005)

Another question, and don't take this the wrong way mate as it isn't necessarily aimed at you, but why would someone consider taking gear, when their training is not sorted out to what it should be???


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

EOD lift then on the other days do cardio.

This way your day off from lifting wont interfere with your recovery.

It is a good practice to get into anyway and has healthful benefits.


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

*Day 8*

Weighed in at 11st 13 this morning, it seems like my body goes up 2lbs then goes down 1 then back up another 2 if you get what i mean. I was looking at some other tbol threads and people don't start noticing its effects until the second week, any one else confirm this?


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## Lightweight! (May 30, 2007)

Didn't really get any weight gain from it personally, that was 5 weeks @ 60mg.

Strength went up a bit, and got sore kidneys about 4 1/2 weeks in.

TBOL aint for me!


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

*Day 9*

I done legs and abs today, when i got back i had lower back pain and stomach pains, i don't know if it was the tbol or a dodgy protein shake or something, it seems to have gone now. I weighed 12st 1 today. I have got a wedding reception to go to tonight so i will be sure to clear there supplies of chicken and rice!


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## chrisj22 (Mar 22, 2006)

cwoody123 said:


> *Day 9*
> 
> I have got a wedding reception to go to tonight


If your drinking alcohol, just make sure you drink plenty of water today & leather the milk thistle etc.


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

*Day 10*

Well the wedding went ok in the end, i made sure i had my Oat-protein shake before i left, i then had few items from the buffet, but did not go over the top. I seemed to weigh in today at whooping 12st 3lb!

I have increasingly been feeling really warm, today was a step up thou, i was absolutely boiling!

Another nasty side effect from either the tbol or the diet is the most vial farts you have ever smelt! My gf has stopped finding it amusing now and threatened to banish me from the bedroom lol

I def feel different now thou, i have chest, triceps, shoulders tmoz so hopefully i will see some improvement.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

The gas is not from the gear and if it was it would be compromised digestion.

Get you some digestive enzymes (you should be taking these anyway) and pro-biotics.

Hot?

Gear makes me hot.


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

hackskii said:


> The gas is not from the gear and if it was it would be compromised digestion.
> 
> Get you some digestive enzymes (you should be taking these anyway) and pro-biotics.
> 
> ...


Yea i feel hot most of the time, last night i had to lay starkers under the fan to get to sleep. This morning on the way to work i had the air con on full blast just to cool down.

I will get some of those digestive enzyme tabs at lunch today, do you take them just before you eat or does it not matter?

O This morning i weighed in at 12st 4.2 lbs which is another lb on in a day :-S I also have those scales that tell you your body fat percentage, they say i have gone from 17% to 15% however i don't really take much notice of the scales Body fat % thing as i have heard they are are fairly inaccurate.

I will update after training tonight.

Thanks ;-)


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## mickus (Aug 30, 2007)

its amazing how the gear effects different people in different ways, the only sides i ever get is some atrophy apart from that i never get kidney or back pumps or pimples or anything else for that matter even when I was on 90mg ED of TBOL

Thank god...


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

cwoody123 said:


> Yea i feel hot most of the time, last night i had to lay starkers under the fan to get to sleep. This morning on the way to work i had the air con on full blast just to cool down.
> 
> I will get some of those digestive enzyme tabs at lunch today, do you take them just before you eat or does it not matter?
> 
> ...


With your meal bro, it will help aid in digestion. You will get more out of your food too.

Plus beings that alot of the food now days is processed and heat kills enzymes, so with that said your enzyme pool in your body will kind of borrow some enzymes to aid in digestion.

Not that is ok but those enzymes can be busy doing other things instead of breaking down your meals.

I think you will like them.


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## samurai691436114498 (Jan 6, 2005)

some interesting stuff here, i am considering trying a 14x14 lower dose T bol cycle soon, similar to my d-bol cycles........so your still on 50mg of Tbol?? i am wondering just how low i could go and still see gains, i know wuith the d bol i gained on 10 or 15 mg, so with the t bol maybe 15 to 20mg

good thread ........ kep it up


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## Five-O (May 21, 2006)

throw those bodyfat scales out, get tested with calipers mate.

The quick weight gain will be water and glycogen retention, A realistic clean gain I reckon would be around 4-5lbs tops.

Stick to that diet your doing and in 6 months you will look and feel 100% better, keep up the good work!


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## andye (Jan 30, 2006)

i can range from anything from 15-20% on my bf scales. and if i touch my legs together it drops to 8% , work that one out.

5 point caliper check has me at around 10-11.

my accumeasure 1 point measure calipers say im 6% lol


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

Yea thats why i really didn't take much notice.

*Day 11*

Training went very well today, i would not say i am lifting that much more but i seem to be working harder and i am a little more focused. I was thinking of doing some cardio tmoz.


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

*Day 12*

Today i feel sore, i def think a split routine is more beneficial for me. No headaches for a couple of days which is nice. The only problem is that lately i do feel bloated, i think i might try some dandelion root or something to see if i can get this water weight off.


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## takeone (May 23, 2007)

Lightweight! said:


> Didn't really get any weight gain from it personally, that was 5 weeks @ 60mg.
> 
> Strength went up a bit, and got sore kidneys about 4 1/2 weeks in.
> 
> TBOL aint for me!


i also got sore kidneys and had to cut short after 3 weeks but still got decent gains.


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

*Day 13*

Well i weighed in this morning at 12st so thats 4lbs off in 3 days. Surely this has got to be water?

I don't know why i seem to hold water like this, maybe it is something i eat or drink. I have not been drinking milk lately so maybe thats it. I am also getting enough carbs so my Glycogen stores should be well topped up.

Any ideas?


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## Ellis (Mar 18, 2006)

i dont mean this in a insulting way but are you sure its water you are holding and not that you have put on some bodyfat as people seem to mistake one for the other?

what make of t-bol you using out of interest? and what gym do you train at i noticed your from berkshire which is near to me?


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## Mr Brown (Mar 20, 2007)

I know it's natural to wanna weigh yourself woody but you should try and ignore the numbers, the mirror is where it counts pal.


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

Well i assumed if it was body fat then it would not come off that quick especially as i have jacked up my calories. I did complain before that when i am not taking AI's or SERMS for a while i seem to develop a puffiness mostly in my nipple area and on my hips, after a couple of weeks or so of taking AI i notice it goes away. Even when i was a 14lb lighter before i still experienced puffy nipples, like i said the only time this has ever gone away was when i done my clomid restart and when i took Armidex to lower my estrodial.

I am using Balkan Pharm T-bol (If this is violation of the rules then i am very sorry but it is from a sponsored source so i am unsure)

I am going to get some dandelion root and drink bitter lemon to see if this will make a difference a i can't keep taking AI all the time.

In the mirror i actually think i am looking much better today, i might post up some more pics tonight.


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## Ellis (Mar 18, 2006)

your from berkshire right, where do you train woody?


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

Camberley. Where do you train?


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## Ellis (Mar 18, 2006)

a few gyms, powerlifting gym in aldershot, gallery in windsor and also, bracknell bodybuilding gym.


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## supercharged999 (Aug 15, 2006)

T-BOL worked great for me.put on 5 kg in 6 weeks. (50 mg/day )

i am 35 @ 5ft 3" (male ) used to compete at junior level.

have not used gear for about 10 years , and train about 8 months/year on+off. went from 71 kg - 76 kg.

6:00

protein shake (300ml milk )

handfull apricots

9:00

50 g oats

250 ml milk

3 bolied eggs

12:00

tin tuna/ tbl spoon mayo

apple

15:00

protein shake (300 ml milk )

slice toast with peanut butter

18:00

200 g chicken

1 cup cooked rice

veg

keep at it !!


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

I like the concept of the diet where all the macro's are in each meal.

Also I see you are taking in good fats.

I like it.


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

*Day 14*

My libido seems to be sky rocketing today, makes it a bit difficult to concentrate at work when all your brain seems to want to do is think about sex! I have also noticed a bit of acne on my face and chest.

For some reason i don't seem to be sleeping well again, this makes me feel pretty drained by lunch time (I might actually nip home for a nap in a bit)

I had a good work out yesterday in the end, i had to really motivate myself at the beginning thou as i felt drained. I personally think i am looking more harder and more vascular. I weighed in at 12st 1 today so my weight seems to be everywhere at the moment. I am not really concerned as long as i am looking better in the mirror thats all that matters!


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## Mr Brown (Mar 20, 2007)

Just rub one out in the work loo's


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

cwoody123 said:


> *Day 14*
> 
> My libido seems to be sky rocketing today, makes it a bit difficult to concentrate at work when all your brain seems to want to do is think about sex!


I had this so bad last cycle I almost had to stop the cycle it was so bad.


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## Five-O (May 21, 2006)

Id be suprised if your getting acne on tbol mate, unless your pre-disposed to it?


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## Mr Brown (Mar 20, 2007)

hackskii said:


> I had this so bad last cycle I almost had to stop the cycle it was so bad.


HAHA! Embrace the randyness!


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

*Day 15*

I had another crap nights sleep, i think it really has had a negative effect on me today, i feel like crap and feel i look like crap! my body feels puffy and loose. I weighed in at 12st 4.6lbs today so my weight is once again everywhere! will be drinking lemon tea and taking dandelion root from tmoz so will see over the week if that works.

I hAd to see the doctor today to see if i was diabetic or not, luckily my blood sugar levels were normal after fasting so at least thats a positive thing.

I trained legs today, i really had to motivate myself to push through my sets, i do feel a little better now.

Hope everyone is well ;-)

*Latest pics:*


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## Five-O (May 21, 2006)

stick with it mate, look at the bigger picture, if your training and eating you cannot fail to change the way you look, its self explanatory, sometimes it doesn't come as quick as we like but don't give up, your chest is coming out somewhat, build up some weight and keep as lean as possible then you can look into really cutting into any excess fat being carried.


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

*Day 18*

Well weekend went well, i am weighing in at 12st 5. I have been taking dandelion root since Saturday so hopefully this will help with the water weight. I have upped my dosage to 70mg a day, so far i feel ok. I had a slight twinge in my kidney area yesterday but it seems to have gone now. I had a few compliments at a family doo on how my physique has changed which is always nice and helps spur you on a little. Eating is going well mostly, slipped up a little on Saturday and gave in to a Maccy D's but other than that i have been good.


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## Five-O (May 21, 2006)

cwoody123 said:


> *Day 18*
> 
> Well weekend went well, i am weighing in at 12st 5. I have been taking dandelion root since Saturday so hopefully this will help with the water weight. I have upped my dosage to 70mg a day, so far i feel ok. I had a slight twinge in my kidney area yesterday but it seems to have gone now. I had a few compliments at a family doo on how my physique has changed which is always nice and helps spur you on a little. Eating is going well mostly, slipped up a little on Saturday and gave in to a Maccy D's but other than that i have been good.


You are allowed a cheat y'know..... 

always good to get some nice comments, keeps you going.


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

*Day 19*

Well just finished back,traps, biceps. Workout went good, i feel i am quite a bit stronger today as i seemed to go up on all my weights. Food still going well apart from getting a little bored with the foods, i may shake things up a bit and try some new recipes.

I actually felt good today, i thought my chest was defiantly looking more defined, i am pretty happy about the way my arms seem to be taking too. I do actually feel less bloated since taking the dandelion root, i guess it needs a little longer for the real effects to come out, but so far i have had no puffy nipples which is what i hate!

My trousers are starting to get tight around the thighs, still ok on the waist thou, i think i will do some cardio on my off days and see how i get on.

Been on 70mg of TBol for 4 days now and everything seems ok apart form the occasional headache.

Weighing in at 12st 6lbs today.


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

*Day 20*

i have been feeling pretty ruff today, got a major headache and stuffy nose so i think i might be coming down with something. I hope it passes quickly as i am keen to keep making progress.


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## Five-O (May 21, 2006)

lmao, I think your beign a bit paranoid, your only on 70mg of tbol, spare a thought for some of us, test, deca, tren e 

Headaches are more than likely dehydration issues


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

Not getting paranoid at all, i think am getting ill, not from the Tbol but because am getting a cold or something. i have been feeling like **** all day.

I can handle the side effects from tbol quite easily which in my case only seem to be: feeling hot, high libido and the occasional headache.

I am drinking lots of water so i doubt i am dehydrated, like i say it is probably just a cold or something.


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

*Day 21*

All bunged up today, headaches and brain fog seem to have gone thou so feeling bit better. My nose being blocked is going to make training fun thou! I weighed in at 12st 7lbs this morning so still on the up! its funny i think i am looking more lean than before i started this cycle.

Anyways legs tonight, going to try and beat my squat record!


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## Ellis (Mar 18, 2006)

what have you strength gains been like so far cwoody? ie what were you lifting before compaired to now after a few weeks on the cycle, have you noticed much strength increases?


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

well i don't actually want to post up what i lift but i would say i have gone up about 20% on most things. Certain things like bodyweight exercises i have remained at the same weight, but i would consider that as going up also as my muscles are having to lift the extra weight i am carrying.


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## Ellis (Mar 18, 2006)

ok fair enough just curious as as prodiminantly a strength athlete myself rather than bodybuilder i was interested as to how effective you are finding t-bol regarding strenght levels.


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## Robsta (Oct 2, 2005)

isn't the point of this "diary" to post up everything mate...

if you've gone up 20% max lifts then you weren't max lifting before as while tbol certainly gives strength increase, 20% is not from tbol alone mate


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Could be his motivation due to the t-bol?


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## Robsta (Oct 2, 2005)

more than likely mate...but maybe it shows that he could have gotten further before taking the gear???


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## Five-O (May 21, 2006)

robsta9 said:


> more than likely mate...but maybe it shows that he could have gotten further before taking the gear???


I agree tbh.

Nice avvie Rob, looking big mate.


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

You are probably right. Placebo may very well be helping me push that little bit harder. I think overall the biggest thing that has had the biggest impact in all this is getting my diet and training in order, i think even without the tbol i would have got good results.

So maybe i was a bit rash in jumping into taking Tbol, do i regret it, no not really, as long as i am sensible i can't see any problem in having a bit of help in catching up to what nature would have intended me to look like without the tumor ****ing me up for so many years!!


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## Robsta (Oct 2, 2005)

cheers fivos mate...

Woody, I wasn't having a go dude, just making points. I more than likely could have trained more before I started also, so don't think I'm flaming you mate. But for others who maybe reading this, it's just a point to be aware of that maybe you can go further before jumping into the whole roid scene when you actually don't need to..


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

understood mate. The last thing i would want to do is make you guys look bad, especially with all the help i have got from you all over the past year ;-)


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

*Day 22*

Still feeling pretty crappy. Managed to do 40 mins of cardio which actually went ok with the help of a sinex stick and a shed load of snot rag lol .

Over the last few days i have felt that my libido has dwindled a bit, that was until i was walking back from the gym and a group of girls were throwing over a few looks and giggles as they walked past. Man i could have ****ed them all one by one! lol i think libido wise i just go through patterns, i always thought it was just my testosterone coming back but i think it is just how i am supposed to be.

Anyways its chest,shoulders and triceps tmoz so hopefully i can continue to improve.


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## tommyboy123 (Jun 12, 2007)

I think your quality woody...

Posting up your history like that takes guts, and I really hope you get some lasting gains out of this cycle.

Im a complete novice compared to most of these big fellas but am interested due to your use of Tbol, as Im soon to start my third cycle of Tbol, sust.

Im not sure if your previous natural test problems have ruled out using test/sust with your tbol (someone has probably covered this and i missed it), but is there any reason why you cant use test with your tbol.

I know you have already started the cycle, just wondering if you considered it.

This seems to have turned into a cool post and hope you keep updating us with your progress.

Good luck and hope you kick that cold.....dont want that holding you back now!


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

I totally agree with you Tommy

Woody had some problems and the t-bol cycle will say much to his recovery or lack there of.

If there are hiccups then there are some that can help him with that.

One step at a time woody mate, one step at a time..........

You are not alone in your endeaveres.


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

*Day 23*

Thanks guys, it's good to know that people are behind me. i just hope people now and in the future can find these posts and learn or discover something from them. I wish i realized the signs earlier but whats done is done.

The reason i choose tbol over other steroids was because of its mild anabolic properties and the fact that it does not armotize. I have just recently got my natural test up to scratch, if all goes well after PCT and my T returns to its original set point or higher than before i started tbol then i may think about trying something a little more anabolic and androgenic.

But to be honest at the moment all this is just an experiment to see how my endocrine system reacts to being suppressed again and how it bounces back.

Well training went very well today, my bench has gone up again, to be honest i don't care if it's placebo, More food or tbol thats doing it im just happy to be making progress. I do not see much in the way of atrophy in my testicles at the moment but does not mean anything.

*I was going through my old files and found some of my old pictures i thought u guys might find interesting:*


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Onward and upward mate..........

You are learning all the time.


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## Five-O (May 21, 2006)

I think you are quite an educated guy woody, im sure you'll persevere and progress really well, remember, diet is key, you been sticking to the diet?


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

yea i have been sticking to the diet on most parts, been guilty of missing a few meals here and there. I have also included a few more simple carbs into my diet so i actually have an appetite as my appetite completely went for a good few days by just eating complex carb-high protein diet.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

cwoody123 said:


> by just eating complex carb-high protein diet.


This is basicly a bodybuilders diet right here.


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

Yea i know....But i LOVE CAKE!!


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## Rowlf (Jan 10, 2007)

Man, I know how you feel. Whenever I fall off the diet wagon (like I did the last two days) it's always the cake or biscuits urge that's the culprit...cakeaholics anonymous, anyone?

I've just decided it's no good feeling desperately guilty because then I want cake.....


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

*Day 24*

Weighed in at 12st 8lbs today. Today was Back, Traps, Biceps. It went really well! i managed to increase my weight on most thing whilst maintaining clean form. Been good on my eating again today, i think i need to do something about what i am eating as i am starting to get very bored so ideas on tasty recipes would be greatly appreciated? 

O on a side note my bro said he is noticing me changing....it was quite shocking because he never admits when i am doing well lol


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

*day 25*

I feel good today, i worked hard yesterday and i barley have any DOMS today which is nice. Playing a bit of tennis tonight so that my cardio. My holiday is looming which i will be on for (i sound like a woman on her time of the month) I will be doing bodyweight exercises during this week. I think the change will actually be quite good for me. Not tried a handstand press up yet but think i should be able to do them, if not i will just be upside down looking like a right tit! lol

O forgot to mention my Tbol dosage is at 80mg ed and thats what its staying at.


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## Five-O (May 21, 2006)

why is the dosage at what it is? and what was your proposed dose?


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

Well from my own intital research i found that many others have reported good results on 80mg ed, this may be disputed by others but for me its seems an adequate amount, i do not feel any negative side effects from using tbol at 80mg a day, if i did i would drop the dose. My proposed dose was to assess how i felt and continue to increase the dose based on: Side effects, Strength, Size, Liver stress etc... So far my body feels good, i am still necking the Milk thistle to try and give my body a little help, i am staying away from alcohol through this entire cycle also which helps.

Just before all this i had my liver values checked and after i will get the same checks done along with other hormone values to make sure homeostasiss has returned, i think to be honest this is probably going to be one of the most thorough posts on the effects of tbol you will find today with the exception of my weight lifting logs. However i do have this information and if i decide it is relevant to post in the future i will but for now you are going to have to take my word i am afraid.


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

*Day 26*

not really looking forward to today as i have to have my second stomach draining tonight which is quite painful, but it should give me a nice flat stomach for holiday. So far in the mirror i am very impressed with what i have achieved, the wolf whistles from teenage girls happened again yesterday when i was playing tennis which is always nice 

Got a bit of lower back pain today but i think that is more to do with the my ****e form playing tennis than anything tbol related. Got legs tonight which i never really look forward too but i know i will be alright when i get going.


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

*Day 28*

Well i will be on holiday as from tmoz so probably will not post for a while. I weighed in at 12st 10 yesterday and this morning i weighed in at 12st 7 so i think there might be water fluctuations going on again. I did not have to have liquid drained from my stomach in the end as the plastic surgeon thinks it is fat that he did not take out, he said if it does not disperse after 2 months then he will perform lipo suction on it. I mentioned a little while ago about my libido going, over the past 3 days i have not ****ed once which is almost unheard for me so i think there maybe some libido suppression going on somewhere.

I will continue to train whilst on holiday, i will continue to try to keep my diet clean also.

Thanks again for everyones help!


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

*Day 38*

Well i am back from holiday. Been off Tbol for 2 days as i have just run out, not quite 6 weeks but almost!

I made an effort to eat sensibly on holiday, however i found it quite difficult to get enough nutrition in so i took to eating nuts to keep my calories and protein levels up. Got back and weighed 12st 12 so thats 2lb on since the start of my holiday.

I did train on holiday getting up at 5 in the morning to use the park (God that was tough) nearly broke my back doing handstand press ups!

For the past 2 days i have been on 100mg ed of Clomid. For some reason i feel fantastic, full of energy and life.

Anyways here are my latest pics taken yesterday:


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## Robsta (Oct 2, 2005)

??

what pics


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

No pics mate.........


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

ok pics are sorted


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## dan2004 (May 8, 2007)

cwoody123 said:


> Hello everyone. After much deliberation i have decided to do a 6-7 week Tbol only cycle. I will be consuming 50mg ed along with 800mg of Milk thisle.
> 
> I will be doing a 4 week pct with clomid also. I also have some armidex on hand just incase.
> 
> ...


Hi mate im not being rude atall but is that picture your displaying recent ? Im guessing it is judging my the update pictures you have posted . Surley you could get in better shape by improving your diet and calorie/protien/carb intake before moving on to gear. Thats a huge step and could have massive effects on your life ? Sorry if that sounds like a DIG but its not just wondering thats all


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

yes they are recent, this post is a little more complicated than your usual newbie chucking anything down his neck without knowing what the **** he is doing situation. However i have already admitted that if proper training and diet was addressed then i could have probably made descent gains anyway.

If you want to see why i choose to take tbol then it is all detailed in my posts.

To be honest i am happy with my progress and hopefully it continues!


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## dan2004 (May 8, 2007)

Yeah thats fine mate , like i said was just enquiring in to your methods thats all . Like you say with a good diet , training ,cardio etc your gains could have been even better . Keep it up all the same


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

thanks bud, i am no where near where i want to be yet. Over th post couple of months i have not only got my hormones in order but also my training and diet so if anything good has come out of this then i would have to say that it has helped me address the foundations of my training and diet.


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## Mr Brown (Mar 20, 2007)

You can defo see a change woody between before and now pics so far!


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

*Day 39*

Still feeling good. It's only been 3 days and i have a very distinctive tingling in my testicals. It is strange as i have documented this feeling before in my previous clomid restart post. My libido seems to be getting more lively also.

I think by the end Tbol cycle i was really starting to feel down but it was so slow i did not realize it, i found myself feeling uncomfortable and stressed around other people i was with on holiday, also the fact that i had zero libido made things even harder.

So far i have not had any of the negative effects from clomid... you know like wanting to watch Dirty Dancing or lashing out for no reason etc...


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

Forgot to mention the main other thing i noticed in the last weeks on Tbol was severe Imsomnia, for some reason i would wake up really early feeling really hot after that i could not get back to sleep. I am hoping now the Tbol is leaving my system i can get back to my normal sleep patterns.


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

*2 (and a bit) weeks on...*

Hello everyone!

Just thought i would post how i am feeling after i finished my cycle. i am weighing in at 12st 5-6lbs, i finished my tbol cycle at 12st 10lbs. At the moment i feel on top of the world! Clomid is doing a great job, my nuts are moohassive at the moment! MY libido is strong, my mind is clear, i have a good appetite again, i am sleeping much better.

One thing i have noticed when on Clomid is that i have loads of confidence, i have a tendency to get paranoid quite alot. At the moment that seems to be gone, i can look people in the eyes and talk to strangers without any fear, i did not really know this was how i was feeling and how i used to feel until now. My body must favour having high testosterone levels.

*Negative effects i noticed with Tbol:*

Feeling hot all the time.

Insomnia

Killed my appetite

Shut me down very quickly.

I had cognitive problems, you can probably see its effects in my post if u look carefully, i would forget the date, how spell the most simplest words.

I will post up some more pics next week some time.


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## Five-O (May 21, 2006)

cwoody123 said:


> my nuts are moohassive at the moment! MY libido is strong


so Im confused why you say it shut you down quickly, do you realise its one of the weakest steroids out there. You will have started to be shutdown but id be suprised if its anything bad, try not to think about it.

On a plus note; good to see you've got some confidence.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

He has had problems in the past with too much prolactin and that crushing his test levels.

Clomid works very well for some, remember they use the clomid stimulation test to test out the pituitary.

So, what you are noticing is a rise in androgens in your body and thus their benefits.


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## fits (Feb 3, 2004)

[quote name='

[b']Negative effects i noticed with Tbol:

Feeling hot all the time.

Insomnia

Killed my appetite

Shut me down very quickly.

I had cognitive problems, you can probably see its effects in my post if u look carefully, i would forget the date, how spell the most simplest words.

I will post up some more pics next week some time.


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## fits (Feb 3, 2004)

By the way, would you do it again?


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Clomid can give you sides, only thing I ever noticed was it gave me tracers in my eyes.

Other than that clomid works superior for bringing my levels back over nolva.

But I always run both.


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

fits said:


> Interesting, i went to have my Test levels checked due to having some of the common symptoms of low test. Especialy the cognitive probs.
> 
> Clomid can give bad sides to some people can't it? any one had probs with it?


This is one of the main reasons why i went to the doctors in the first place, my mind was so fogy i could not focus on anything for to long, i would then get quickly fustrated.

The bad thing i noticed with clomid before was it was so effective that my body cranked up its SHBG and Albumin levels which lead to a lower free testosterone level, this leads me to think that it must be a result of elevated estrodial possibly due to the very high androgen levels.

Last time round my serum test was measured at 30 mnol and that was over 2 weeks after quiting Clomid, so when i am actually taking them it must be alot higher! You never know i may have a new T set point from doing clomid again.

I don't have any negative side effects this time round, in fact i feel wonderful!

Before i felt quite stressed and emotional on clomid but not this time round.

Would i do Tbol again?

The gains i got were not only noticeable to me but to other people around me as well so i know it had a positive impact on my physical appearance and strength, however it did (by the end) have a very negative effect on my mental state.

I think in the future i will try something a little stronger that would have more of an androgen effect on my brain so i don't notice any of the negative effects of low test levels and keep my libido and cognitive on top form.

I hope my ramblings make sense


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## fits (Feb 3, 2004)

Very interesting and informative thread.

I was going to go to a private doc and pay £125 for a detailed thyroid and test check but i was told to jsut go to my doctor so i did. All he told me was that my thyroid was ok and my test levels were in the middle at 14 . something.

I still get brain fog, but i guess i must just be stupid lol.

Im currently testing Tbol with small a dose using the 14x14 format sam69 used to with Tbol. if and when you try another cycle please do another thread :beer1:


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Woddy, I have read nolvadex will elivate SHBG, not sure about clomid.


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

fits said:


> Very interesting and informative thread.
> 
> I was going to go to a private doc and pay £125 for a detailed thyroid and test check but i was told to jsut go to my doctor so i did. All he told me was that my thyroid was ok and my test levels were in the middle at 14 . something.
> 
> ...


Is that 14 mnol? Doctors are very quick to say that you are in the normal zone when in fact you are not, if it is 14mnol then that sounds quite low to me. Have you manged to gain a descent amount of muscle naturally?


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

hackskii said:


> Woddy, I have read nolvadex will elivate SHBG, not sure about clomid.


I've read that before, i'm really just going by my blood test results which can be found in my "6oxo" thread http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/steroid-testosterone-information/19024-newbie-prolactinoma-problems-after-6-oxo-9.html


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## fits (Feb 3, 2004)

cwoody123 said:


> Is that 14 mnol? Doctors are very quick to say that you are in the normal zone when in fact you are not, if it is 14mnol then that sounds quite low to me. Have you manged to gain a descent amount of muscle naturally?


 I have gained but never huge amounts! in the 12/13 years i have been training on and off i have probably spent 98 % of that time dieting!!! so i cant really say im a hard gainer or anything.

not sure what the 14 was mate.


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

Ok i am still weighing in at 12st 9lbs so i have kept almost all the weight i gained. My weight did drop initially 2 weeks after my cycle. I have just finished the last of my clomid this morning, i had to drop some Armidex in there too as i am sure my Estrodial was high, after a couple of days my libido feels stronger so i think it was the right decision.I will get my blood tested later this week to make sure everything is ok, will try to get my liver values done also.

I know steroids arn't addictive but success is which makes me want to do another one lol

quite interested in doing Samurai's 2 on 2 off dbol cycle


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## mickus (Aug 30, 2007)

Hay Woody,

I am about 4 weeks into my second cycle of Tbol and am already looking into sam69 14/14 cycle of DBOL next but I aint to keen on the sides that come along with DBOl....

This second time round with TBOL I have had no sides what so over, moods normal, even nuts looking good and aint had any spots or any other sides so all is cranking along I must say and I am around 2.5kg up on when started again 

Glad to hear you enjoyed your cycle, I must admit the compounds aint addicitive but the gaines sure are


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

yes mate i read your post this morning, keep up all the hard work! i am suprised that you are doing this cycle on a low carb diet. It was bad enough for me just eating at all as the tbol completely killed my appetite.

I like the idea of taking my dose very early in the morning to coincide with natural test peak. with tbol by week 5-6 i was feeling the effects of being shutdown but the 3-4 weeks i felt great so i think the 14x14 may actually work well for me.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

woody, take into consideration the aromitization of d-bol.


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

If i have some Nolvadex and Armidex on hand and if my dosage stays low at around 10mg then that should deal with any potential armotization issues right?


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

cwoody123 said:


> If i have some Nolvadex and Armidex on hand and if my dosage stays low at around 10mg then that should deal with any potential armotization issues right?


I would use either one or the other, just 20mg of nolva will lower blood plasma levels of adex by around 28%, 38% for letro.

Nolvadex is known for interfering with aromatase inhibitors, using an AI would lower SHBG where as nolva can increase SHBG.

I have heard arguements on both sides of the fence on nolva lowering IGF-1 too.

Stick with an AI during the cycle and leave the SERMS for PCT.

Just my 2cents worth.


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

Ok i have some blood test results:

LH not in yet(1-10)

FSH not in yet (1-10)

TSH 2.4 (0.3 - 5)

Prolactin 69 nmol (0-400)

Cortisol 468 nmol/l (unknown)

Albumin not in yet g/l (34-48)

SHBG not in yet nmol (13-71)

Testosterone not in yet (10-40)

E2 296 pmol (0-80)

Renal function ( all within reference range)

Should get the rest of the results tmoz.

My E2 i showing up as high again the same as the last time i done clomid. Result of the SERMS Skewing the results maybe? I am betting that my T is going to come back very high also! I have acne on my face and chest and back and no matter how much deodorant i put on or shower i stink!

Now Just got to figure out how to explain to my endo what the **** is going on lol


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Clomid is a mixed agonist antagonist to estrogen so yah it will skew the test.


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

Ok i have the some more results:

Testosterone 39.7 (US 1144) (range 10-40)

SHBG 33 nmol (Range 13-71)

That puts my free testosterone at: *0.969 nmol/L = 2.44 %*

*
*

Bioavailable testosterone at: *23.7 nmol/L = 59.7 %*

My Testosterone is through the roof! and that is 2 weeks after finishing Clomid! No wonder i am covered in acne.

The tbol only has a half life of 8 hrs right so that could not skew the results?


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

O i also got the Liver and renal function tests back and everything is in the normal range so no adverse effects from the tbol.


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## dan2004 (May 8, 2007)

Well done on finsihing mate . Get some pictures up Start and Finish im interested in your progress


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

1144?

Wow, mine I dont think has ever been that high ever.

Seems clomid works very well with you.

But clomid can elivate testosterone levels up quite a bit, those should drop some in time.

Could take 6 weeks off from everything and test again to find where you really are.


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

I will do, i have broke my finger and sprained my wrist (Had a fight with the wall, and the wall won!) so can't start my Dbol cycle for a while anyways. My libido is not massive at the mow but i think when the estrodial comes down i will be my usual manic self again. My prolactin is very low, i think i will have to lower my Dostinex dosage to 1 tab a week.

i am cutting at the moment to try and get rid of my love handles so will post up pics when that is done.


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## newdur (Dec 8, 2008)

2 years to late mate:whistling:


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## PHHead (Aug 20, 2008)

newdur said:


> 2 years to late mate:whistling:


Come on he's only new, don't get on your high *horse* lol! :lol:


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## newdur (Dec 8, 2008)

PHHead said:


> Come on he's only new, don't get on your high *horse* lol! :lol:


 :beer: :lol:


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## john1sutt88 (Jan 15, 2009)

HAHA im actually laughing out loud!! Even read the whole damn thread, pff..


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## james_jnr1979 (Jul 3, 2008)

I know this in old thread, but what an interesting read, what ever happened to Woody?? He has banned under his name, does this mean he was kicked off? I'd be interested to know how his progress is doing now 2 years on...


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Yah, he was banned, I did keep in contact with him, he sent me some before and after pics and there was a huge diffrence.


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