# Isolating biceps



## Charno (Jan 18, 2008)

Hi there, just joined to ask this question, hopefully I'll stick around.

I've been training 3 or 4 times a week for about 5 months and I'm noticing improvements. Slowly but surely. Sadly my biceps seen to be lagging behind, particularly my triceps. Over the past few weeks I've noticed that on doing barbell curls I seem to be using my forearms too much, throwing the weight back rather than really isolating my biceps.

The problem is I seem to be unable to focus on my biceps when doing curls.

For the past few months I've been training my biceps once or twice a week using the following.

Barbell Curls 4 sets of 21s (7x7x7) sometimes with a couple of sets of 10

Dumbbell Hammer Curls 4 sets of 10 (sometimes 1 or 2 more sets)

Cable Curl 4 sets of 10 (sometimes 1 or 2 more sets)

I concentrate most of my effort on the Barbell curls often doing 5 or 6 sets, and doing some extra during the rest of the week just to really try to blast my biceps. Sadly the definition doesn't seem to be coming. The mass is there but very little definition.

Could my idea that I'm using the forearm too much be the problem? How can I isolate my bicep? Or am I just under or overtraining? Or perhaps my exercises are all wrong.

Can anybody give me any advice?


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## ah24 (Jun 25, 2006)

Scrap the 7 reps and start going 12-15 - *strict* form.

Going around 7 reps your going to be using some pretty heavy weight I presume - and more than likely bringing your shoulders into play.

Lighten up the weight and go to failure whilst using strict form. Also, although hammer curls are an awesome exercise they wont do much for your biceps brachii, they are more for the brachialis.


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## Bulldozer (Nov 24, 2006)

12 sets , sometimes more for biceps??

Too much mate, they are a small muscle group.

3 sets is ample imo.


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## Tall (Aug 14, 2007)

Bulldozer said:


> 12 sets , sometimes more for biceps??
> 
> Too much mate, they are a small muscle group.
> 
> 3 sets is ample imo.


Today I trained arms.

8 sets in total. They are only lickle muscles.

You want them to grow? Builder bigger back through heavy rows and deadlifts, build a bigger frame through squats and eat more to facilitate the above, and your arms will grow.


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## Charno (Jan 18, 2008)

Thanks. Well I read somewhere about the 21s (7x7x7). That is 7 lower halves, 7 upper halves and 7 full curls. I used to do just 10 straight curls with pretty strict form, maybe a couple of cheats. I read these were better.

I think maybe I fall into the trap of going too heavy and throwing my shoulders into the later reps. Problem is it's tough to go back to lighter weights.

You think I should lighten up to make sure my form is stricter? Maybe the forearm thing is as result of too much weight as well.


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## Spartan301 (Jun 1, 2007)

Are you training biceps on their own? or with say back, chest etc?


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## Charno (Jan 18, 2008)

3 sets only? Wow. My gym instructor put me on 12 sets. I'd feel like I was shortchanging my self with only 3.

8 seems ok. But I don't really want to be big and bulky. Just nice sinewy arms with nicely peaked biceps. Just nicely defined I mean. If that's possible without building major mass.

I'm a fairly slim build really, so bulk doesn't really suit.


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## Bulldozer (Nov 24, 2006)

21's are the most annoying exercise lol

Just stick to a basic barbell curl mate. 3 sets, job done.

As TH&S said, train hard on heavy compounds and your arms will grow.

I dont train arms period, yet they grow!

Dont forget tricep is 2/3 of the upper arm, so if you want big arms train your triceps. 3 sets of dips or close grip bench, job done.


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## Bulldozer (Nov 24, 2006)

Charno said:


> 3 sets only? Wow. *My gym instructor put me on 12* sets. I'd feel like I was shortchanging my self with only 3.
> 
> 8 seems ok. But I don't really want to be big and bulky. Just nice sinewy arms with nicely peaked biceps. Just nicely defined I mean. If that's possible without building major mass.
> 
> I'm a fairly slim build really, so bulk doesn't really suit.


Then he is a bell end , simple


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## Charno (Jan 18, 2008)

Spartan301 said:


> Are you training biceps on their own? or with say back, chest etc?


No, I train shoulders and then biceps on the same day.

Shoulder Press 4 sets

Arnold Press 4 sets

Side Raises 4 sets

Front Raises 4 sets


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## ah24 (Jun 25, 2006)

Charno said:


> 3 sets only? Wow. My gym instructor put me on 12 sets. I'd feel like I was shortchanging my self with only 3.


Firstly, if you feel like your short changing yourself with 3 sets - your not working hard enough 

Secondly, the whole "21's" thing is great for a pump, for muscle growth - I prefer proper, full ROM sets....unless I maybe add some partials in at the end to variate.


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## Charno (Jan 18, 2008)

Bulldozer said:


> Then he is a bell end , simple


Heh. don't think I'll tell him that. He's pretty big!


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## ah24 (Jun 25, 2006)

Charno said:


> Heh. don't think I'll tell him that. He's pretty big!


How many sets has he got you on with back, chest and legs?


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## Bulldozer (Nov 24, 2006)

Charno said:


> Heh. don't think I'll tell him that. He's pretty big!


:behindsof


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## Charno (Jan 18, 2008)

ah24 said:


> How many sets has he got you on with back, chest and legs?


Back:

Single Arm Dumbbell Rows 4 sets

Wide Grip Assisted Pull Ups 4 sets

Row (Machine) 4 sets

Rear Delt Fly 4 sets

Chest:

Flat Dumbbell Press 5 sets

Incline Press 4 sets

Dumbbell Flys 4 sets

Press Ups 3 sets

Legs:

Leg Press 4 sets

Extensions 4 sets

Seated Leg Curl 4 sets

Squats 4 sets

Calf Raise 4 sets

To be fair he actually said 3 to 4 sets, but I went for 4 thinking more is better


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## Five-O (May 21, 2006)

It looks like overkill, if you find it hard to feel the muscle contracting just lower the poundages mate like said above.


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## Charno (Jan 18, 2008)

ah24 said:


> Firstly, if you feel like your short changing yourself with 3 sets - your not working hard enough


I can't imagine feeling like I've had a good bicep workout doing only 3 sets. I must be doing something wrong. Maybe my technique is lousy. I can usually do 4 or 5 sets of just Barbell Curls and I still feel I can do more. Any extra weight though and I end up cheating. Maybe I need more reps, or stricter form.


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## Five-O (May 21, 2006)

Charno said:


> I can't imagine feeling like I've had a good bicep workout doing only 3 sets. I must be doing something wrong. Maybe my technique is lousy. I can usually do 4 or 5 sets of just Barbell Curls and I still feel I can do more. Any extra weight though and I end up cheating. Maybe I need more reps, or stricter form.


You will if you keep prefect form and do them very controlled and slowly, your also working arms on other stuff.

Bi's when doing back

Tri's when doing chest.


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## Charno (Jan 18, 2008)

Yeah I think my form is part of the problem, as I said above too much shoulder and forearm involved. Obviously need to lower the poundages to hit strict form. I'll start that straight away. It'll be tough for my ego though


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## Porky Pie (Aug 2, 2007)

Here's my bicep workout, I did it last night. I've got 19inch arms.

Deadlifts, partials off blocks, seated one arm rows, heavy DB one arm rows (you can use straps here) - went home, couple of cans of Guinness, molested Mrs Pork Pie, fell asleep.

...if Carlesberg did Thursday nights....


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## Five-O (May 21, 2006)

Charno said:


> Yeah I think my form is part of the problem, as I said above too much shoulder and forearm involved. Obviously need to lower the poundages to hit strict form. I'll start that straight away. It'll be tough for my ego though


Best way mate, your new to it but in time you'll start to figure out whats what, at least you've realsied early that bad form leads to very slow gains.

LMAO @ PorkPie...pmsl


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## Bulldozer (Nov 24, 2006)

Porky Pie said:


> Here's my bicep workout, I did it last night. I've got 19inch arms.
> 
> Deadlifts, partials off blocks, seated one arm rows, heavy DB one arm rows (you can use straps here) - went home, couple of cans of Guinness, molested Mrs Pork Pie, fell asleep.
> 
> ...if Carlesberg did Thursday nights....


LOL

Thats very similar to my bicep workout mate.

Mine is,

Trap bar deads

rack pulls

bent rows

chins.

17 inch arm. natural

I use beer as my pwo shake also, like ya style :beer1:


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## Charno (Jan 18, 2008)

I can't begin to say how ridiculous I'd look with 19 inch arms mate!

Yeah thanks Five-O, and the rest of you fellas for the help.


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## ah24 (Jun 25, 2006)

Try 2 sets of seated inclined dumbell curls, around 12-15reps......*tear inducing failure - NOT a slight build up of lactic acid and 'thats me done'*

Straight after that second set, use a lighter weight and do barbell preachers, ALL the way up and contract, then ALL the way down - most people only go 3/4s way on these...you want it about 1/2inch from lock out. So in effect this is a drop-set....to failure again.

Now tell me tomorrow morning whether or not just supinating your wrist kills your biceps. For experienced trainers, this may not be enough but after only 5months of training for yourself and probably never gone to complete failure or just used biceps rather than delts - you should feel this and get a skin splitting pump


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## Charno (Jan 18, 2008)

ah24 said:


> Try 2 sets of seated inclined dumbell curls, around 12-15reps......*tear inducing failure - NOT a slight build up of lactic acid and 'thats me done'*
> 
> Straight after that second set, use a lighter weight and do barbell preachers, ALL the way up and contract, then ALL the way down - most people only go 3/4s way on these...you want it about 1/2inch from lock out. So in effect this is a drop-set....to failure again.
> 
> Now tell me tomorrow morning whether or not just supinating your wrist kills your biceps. For experienced trainers, this may not be enough but after only 5months of training for yourself and probably never gone to complete failure or just used biceps rather than delts - you should feel this and get a skin splitting pump


I'll certainly try this when I get back to the gym, after my weekend break. I workout Monday, Tuesday, Thursday & Friday....religiously. I consider myself a bit of a coward in the gym mind, I think that's part of my problem as well. I never seem to hit flat out, I always give myself a little breathing space. I suppose that's something which can come when you learn more about your body's limits.


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## Charno (Jan 18, 2008)

ah24 said:


> ... after only 5months of training for yourself and probably never gone to complete failure or just used biceps rather than delts -


Yes that's certainly true of using my deltoids in all my bicep workouts, need to cut that out. Deltoids and forearms.


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## Guest (Jan 18, 2008)

Do some chin ups job done i dont even know why your a member of a gym if all you want is a lean arm with a little bit of a bicep........most normal males have some bicep size going with out even training:cool:

Do an hour of cardio per day and try and not drink ten pints and eat 5 kebabs every friday night and then your goal will be easy to achieve.


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## ah24 (Jun 25, 2006)

Its hard to hit total failure for the first time. You just gotta really channel into the zone, focus on a bit of wall in-front of you, grit your teeth and keep going and going and going until you physically cant move your arms. It gets pretty painful, you'll soon see why most heavy lifters like to get vocal


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## Charno (Jan 18, 2008)

Con said:


> Do some chin ups job done i dont even know why your a member of a gym if all you want is a lean arm with a little bit of a bicep........most normal males have some bicep size going with out even training:cool:
> 
> Do an hour of cardio per day and try and not drink ten pints and eat 5 kebabs every friday night and then your goal will be easy to achieve.


That's not all I want. I want a bit of size and muscle. Just don't want to be a hulk or anything. Not that I think that would be possible for me. Anyway I like the gym, workouts make me feel good and make me look better. I know you're just yanking my chain though right?

Yep ah24 never been that fatigued, my arms sometimes feel like concrete blocks, but I can still do more.


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## Guest (Jan 18, 2008)

Charno said:


> That's not all I want. I want a bit of size and muscle. Just don't want to be a hulk or anything. Not that I think that would be possible for me. Anyway I like the gym, workouts make me feel good and make me look better. I know you're just yanking my chain though right?
> 
> Yep ah24 never been that fatigued, my arms sometimes feel like concrete blocks, but I can still do more.


I am not yanking your chain, if your able to have a few weights in your house and can go running out side you have EVERY THING you need to build a lean muscular body.

When i was a teen for many years i didnt go to a gym but i used to run out side and then do some exersises with dumbbells at home including lots of sit ups and i looked exactly like those male model ******* i see on some of those health fitness mags so no a gym is not needed to achieve this.


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## shorty (Mar 13, 2007)

Charno said:


> I concentrate most of my effort on the Barbell curls often doing 5 or 6 sets, and doing some extra during the rest of the week just to really try to blast my biceps. Sadly the definition doesn't seem to be coming. The mass is there but very little definition.
> 
> Can anybody give me any advice?


2 ways to get both!!

Sack isolation... heavy (without swinging) compound curls!! 5x5!

second one is diet!.... thats it!


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## shorty (Mar 13, 2007)

Con said:


> I am not yanking your chain, if your able to have a few weights in your house and can go running out side you have EVERY THING you need to build a lean muscular body.
> 
> When i was a teen for many years i didnt go to a gym but i used to run out side and then do some exersises with dumbbells at home including lots of sit ups and i looked exactly like those male model ******* i see on some of those health fitness mags so no a gym is not needed to achieve this.


correct... they are *******...lol!.....


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## Charno (Jan 18, 2008)

Con said:


> I am not yanking your chain, if your able to have a few weights in your house and can go running out side you have EVERY THING you need to build a lean muscular body.
> 
> When i was a teen for many years i didnt go to a gym but i used to run out side and then do some exersises with dumbbells at home including lots of sit ups and i looked exactly like those male model ******* i see on some of those health fitness mags so no a gym is not needed to achieve this.


You may well be right, if I had a bench and some room to workout in I wouldn't need the gym at all. I bet that's the case for many gym goers. Surely not everyone in here wants to build 20 inch forearms and a 60 inch chest?

I do run outside a couple of times a week, and I did use some weights at home for a while before I joined the gym. As I say I've only been going a few months so I'll see what I can get out of it for now and assess at end of my membership whether or not to renew.


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## Guest (Jan 18, 2008)

Charno said:


> You may well be right, if I had a bench and some room to workout in I wouldn't need the gym at all. I bet that's the case for many gym goers. Surely not everyone in here wants to build 20 inch forearms and a 60 inch chest?
> 
> I do run outside a couple of times a week, and I did use some weights at home for a while before I joined the gym. As I say I've only been going a few months so I'll see what I can get out of it for now and assess at end of my membership whether or not to renew.


90% of people i see in these high tech gyms dont need to be there, all the equipment confuses them and they end up wasting time instead of focusing on what really matters for them and thats doing hard cardio aka running and body weight exercises because thats plenty to achieve the look your describing.

Gyms cost a **** load.


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## Charno (Jan 18, 2008)

shorty said:


> 2 ways to get both!!
> 
> Sack isolation... heavy (without swinging) compound curls!! 5x5!
> 
> second one is diet!.... thats it!


Ok heavy with correct form (ie no swinging) is going to be tough. I'll see how heavy I can go though maintaining right form. 5x5 eh?

I'm pretty slim as it is so I didn't think dieting would be necessary. Not strict dieting anyway...surely! Don't say that!


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## Charno (Jan 18, 2008)

Con said:


> 90% of people i see in these high tech gyms dont need to be there, all the equipment confuses them and they end up wasting time instead of focusing on what really matters for them and thats doing hard cardio aka running and body weight exercises because thats plenty to achieve the look your describing.
> 
> Gyms cost a **** load.


Yeah this is one of those high tech gyms, got a discount membership so price isn't too bad. I do want to work hard though, get the most out of the gym. I don't do any cardio at all there, just run as I said a couple of times a week. Actually I swim there as well.

So you think unless I want to look like Arnie did 30 years ago I don't need the gym then? And I don't need a high tech gym for well....anything. Fair enough. I can take that on board.


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## Charno (Jan 18, 2008)

Ok I admit it, I'm there exclusively for the ladies!


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## megatron (Apr 21, 2004)

No shame in that mate  Gives you something to look at between sets.


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## Guest (Jan 18, 2008)

Charno said:


> Ok I admit it, I'm there exclusively for the ladies!


Thats the only thing those big gyms are good for


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## Mars (Aug 25, 2007)

Warm up.

1x10 barbell.

1x10 dumbbell.

1x10 preacher.

1x10 hammer, hit that outer head and brachialis


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## Toregar (Apr 5, 2006)

If after 4 sets you really don't feel it in your bis, then there could be a form/mmc thing happening.

There are a couple tricks to prevent you from fecking up your form.

1. When curling, curl with your wrists down and out, don't let them come up and assist in the movement.

2. Curl with your back against a wall/Arm Blaster

When you're curling, pretend your arm is a hinge, in that your elbow never, ever, moves. Stand with your body straight, rigid, no swaying whatsoever (Unless you would like to at the end for some cheat curls). Also, try to do a slow count for your curling. Something like this: 4-1-2. On the eccentric portion of the curl (downward) lower the bar for a count of 4 seconds. At the bottom pause for 1 second. Then raise the bar for a count of two, all the while feeling the contraction in your bis and really squeeze it at the top. You won't be able to use a heavy weight doing this, but your problem is that you can't feel it, and increasing the weight won't help that. If you do all of that, your bis won't have any choice but to be isolated. Give it a try, maybe it'll work out for ya  .


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## dmcc (Nov 25, 2007)

PIERCEDNIP said:


> i agree with less is more - i was definitely over training my biceps until recently - i train back and biceps together and 6 sets of bb bi curls- 2 warm up and 4 heavy are more than enough


I completely agree with you pnip - recently I went back to doing bis after back, doing 6x8 of a variety of curls, and feel it much more.


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## Charno (Jan 18, 2008)

Thanks guys.

Cheers for the tips Toregar, I'm always worried about my form, trying to get the balance right between heaviness and strictness. Of course I should be sacrificing heaviness to strict form every time but it's not easy when you're just starting out to pick up the small weights.

I'm going to change down from now on and go for strict, controlled form following your tips there and the others suggested. I'll see how that goes for a few weeks and post back.


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## Five-O (May 21, 2006)

Imagine when curling you have your elbows pinned to your sides and all the movement comes from there, I see a lot of ppl using upper arms to leverage the weight up when its too heavy.

They might laugh at the weight your lifting, but they'll all be doing the same when they see the improvements.


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## Charno (Jan 18, 2008)

Toregar said:


> 1. When curling, curl with your wrists down and out, don't let them come up and assist in the movement.


Just tried that and it feels like I'm using my forearm more with the wrists down. Did the slow count and locked the elbows in, it's certainly much tougher even with less weight. My arms are aching after only a couple of sets. Forearms more than biceps I must say, but I can feel the bicep more than before. Cheers.

Cheers Five-O, hopefully you're right.


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## Jock (Apr 8, 2003)

I wouldn't be concerned about isolating any muscles after just 5 months of training.

Just do heavy compounds (Deadlifts, Chins, Rows) 4-6 reps and you will have more growth than doing 4 sets of curls etc.

You are getting ahead of yourself IMO, you are a beginner so stick the the basics.

It's not like you do a few squats and deadlifts and suddenly you are huge!!


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## Bulldozer (Nov 24, 2006)

Jock said:


> I wouldn't be concerned about isolating any muscles after just 5 months of training.
> 
> Just do heavy compounds (Deadlifts, Chins, Rows) 4-6 reps and you will have more growth than doing 4 sets of curls etc.
> 
> ...


Nice post, totally agree


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## Charno (Jan 18, 2008)

Jock said:


> I wouldn't be concerned about isolating any muscles after just 5 months of training.
> 
> Just do heavy compounds (Deadlifts, Chins, Rows) 4-6 reps and you will have more growth than doing 4 sets of curls etc.
> 
> ...


I'm not sure I really understand what you mean by heavy compounds. Are bench presses heavy compound or isolation? How about dips? Shoulder presses?

I do squats one day a week 4 sets, also do chins (wide grip pull ups) and single arm dumbbell rows each for 4 sets on my back day. Are these the kind of rows you mean or barbell rows, or....I dunno.

You think I shouldn't do any presses or front raises, laterals? And do you think 4 days a week is overdoing it? It sounds like you're recommending I scrap my entire routine. I must say I haven't been ecstatic with the results so far but I think I've made some progress in such a short time. I dunno though. It's difficult to gauge.

The deadlift seems to be mighty popular here, I must try to work that one in. It looks like murder on your back though.


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## ah24 (Jun 25, 2006)

compound = multi-joint movement

isolation = single joint


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## Charno (Jan 18, 2008)

ah24 said:


> compound = multi-joint movement
> 
> isolation = single joint


Thanks, could have, should have worked that out really shouldn't I?

I've been reading a few compound routines posted here and I can see the different focus, the big exhausting exercises. I couldn't believe how much harder squats were than just about everything else I was doing when I started. After four sets my legs were just gone. Sounds like the deadlift will be similar.


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## paulo (Feb 17, 2007)

bulldozers advice will work,do that and see-overtraining as you are doing both in terms of volume and frequency- ie you do too much/too often

no point asking for advice if you dont listen.

wish i had decent reference resource when i started-would be better now and no injuries


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## paulo (Feb 17, 2007)

bulldozers advice will work,do that and see-overtraining as you are doing both in terms of volume and frequency will hold you back- ie you do too much/too often

no point asking for advice if you dont listen.

wish i had decent reference resource when i started-would be better now and no injuries


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## Charno (Jan 18, 2008)

I hope I haven't given the impression I'm not listening, it's just when you've been doing something for a while it can be a bit of a culture shock to hear that it's all been pretty useless and you need to go back to square one.

I do appreciate all the advice though, and I will certainly try to implement some of the stuff. Most of the stuff. As much as I can. I've actually been doing the same 4 day routine now for about 3 or 4 months, exactly the same exercises in exactly the same order. I'm not the most imaginative in the gym!


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## Five-O (May 21, 2006)

Charno said:


> I hope I haven't given the impression I'm not listening, it's just when you've been doing something for a while it can be a bit of a culture shock to hear that it's all been pretty useless and you need to go back to square one.
> 
> I do appreciate all the advice though, and I will certainly try to implement some of the stuff. Most of the stuff. As much as I can. I've actually been doing the same 4 day routine now for about 3 or 4 months, exactly the same exercises in exactly the same order. I'm not the most imaginative in the gym!


Good to hear, some solid advice on here, Jock is right, heavy compound lifts (exercises that hit more than one muscle group; bench, squat, deads) will all increase your size all around, using the techniques we suggested though for a few sets on arms will help bring them up, remember to really squeeze the bi's at the top of the movement aswell mate.

Nice to hear you carrying out some of the advice we've put down for you.


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## Charno (Jan 18, 2008)

Cheers Five-O

Looking at the beginners forum I think the routine set out by davesrs in this thread looks like something to go on. The basic heavy compound stuff seems to be in there and it's just a case of tailoring it to suit myself based on areas I want to focus on (although at the minute it seems I should be doing the basics and nothing else).

Just to reiterate my question about rows. Are they the same rows displayed here?

Thanks again


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## Toregar (Apr 5, 2006)

The fellows are right when they say for you to do compound movements to build up a nice base, though it never hurts to know what correct form is when it comes time to do a certain exercise; thus the isolation advice the other lads and myself gave you.

Your link points towards a standard BB row. I don't like the way he's doing it in the gif though. Try this one ... 




You can have a bit more of an angle to your torso if you want, but you get the idea. Also, you can try a variation later on down the road called a pendlay row. It's the same thing except that your torso is exactly parallel to the ground, like this.






See how he's totally strict, focusing on just the required muscles to get the weight from point A to point B, none of that swaying nonsense. Just don't let the weight fall down at the end of the rep like he's doing lol. I love this version of the row  .

Go with the standard row, though, until you get the hang of it  

Later on


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## Charno (Jan 18, 2008)

Thanks Toregar that's a big help.

Been in today and did a few sets of light deadlifts and barbell bent over rows and I could really feel the strain in my lower back. Actually I'm a bit stiff now, cut down on the other stuff I had to do, wide grip pull ups and single arm dumbbell rows. My back was already a little stiff from the night before so perhaps I was foolhardy in trying such demanding back compounds today. Did a few abs exercises after.

I've got a day off now so we'll see how I feel tomorrow.



ah24 said:


> Try 2 sets of seated inclined dumbell curls, around 12-15reps......*tear inducing failure - NOT a slight build up of lactic acid and 'thats me done'*
> 
> Straight after that second set, use a lighter weight and do barbell preachers, ALL the way up and contract, then ALL the way down - most people only go 3/4s way on these...you want it about 1/2inch from lock out. So in effect this is a drop-set....to failure again....


I'm working up to this one mate, my usual bicep day is Friday so maybe I'll try it out then. I did a couple of light seated inclined dumbbell curls to get the form off and also a couple of light sets of preachers going all the way down and then up as you said. Just a warm up really, I'll harness the beast till Friday!


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## ah24 (Jun 25, 2006)

Sounds good mate, make sure on the seated inclined bench curls that you actually lay/sit back in the seat....you see people not using the back....so it may as well be at normal seated level lol

Try it Friday, post back on Saturday and let me know how it felt. I took a guy through a bi's and tri's workout the day before yesterday - he rung up today calling me a w*nker saying he can barely answer his phone, brush his teeth etc so going to need 2-3 days off the gym.... I love my job sometimes


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## Charno (Jan 18, 2008)

It'll be tough to work to absolute failure but I'll give it a go. I do shoulders and then biceps on the same day, you think I should keep it that order or do your mad routine first?


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