# How To Progress...



## JAtkinson (May 18, 2014)

Hi,

First post and all that jazz, so here it goes,

Age: 25

Current Weight: 14st 8lb

Height: 6ft 2in

Been focused on training now for just shy of 2 years.

The first 6-8 months were all about trying to drop the weight and learn my technique on the big lifts. Started at 16st 10lb and got myself down to my 14st 7lb target. Once the weight dropped I looked at trying to bring my strength up to a respectable(ish) level. Followed Stronglifts, moved onto PHUL and then onto 5/3/1. In hindsight I 100% should have stayed with Stronglifts a little longer and feel like I should have moved onto 5/3/1 before PHUL.

I finished my last cycle of 5/3/1 at 15st 2lb and the below lifts,

Deadlift - 207.5kg x2 (PB)

Squat - 130kg x2

Bench - 102.5kg x 1(PB)

Press - 52.5kg x5

After my last cycle I dropped my kcals in order to loose a bit of fat for my holidays and in doing so couldn't keep up with lifting these weights so lowered the weight I was using (always lifted the most I felt I could), upped my cardio, and got myself down to 14st 2lb.

Despite my strength going up I don't feel like my composition was changing how I wanted before I went on holiday so I am looking to start introducing more kcals into the diet to try and get to the size I want.

I'm going to bring my kcals up to around 3500, trying to keep it as relatively clean as possible, and slowly add 100 kcals or so every couple of weeks. I'm aiming for a long bulk, with 8 months being my initial aim

With regards to training - my goal is aesthetics. I was planning on going back to SL 5x5, milk it for as much as I can, move onto 3x5 and then onto 5/3/1 again - what's your views on this? Is it a backwards step? If I'm looking for aesthetics over strength should I take my training down a different route?

You read so much online that training in the low rep range is beneficial for natural trainers yet I would honestly say I'm the only person I see in my gym training like this. It's a commercial gym and I know you don't know who uses AAS, but I very much doubt the majority of people in my gym are using some sort of AAS, yet most still look better than me.

Sorry for the long post and thanks for taking time to read it - any comments, pointers, articles you think I would benefit from please pass onto me.

Thanks

J


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## Smitch (Dec 29, 2008)

If you've only ever done low reps and aren't getting the results you want then just try high rep stuff for a few months and see how it goes.

There is no one rule for everyone when it comes to lifting, we all react differently so you need to find what suits you best.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

JAtkinson said:


> I'm going to bring my kcals up to around 3500, trying to keep it as relatively clean as possible, and slowly add 100 kcals or so every couple of weeks. I'm aiming for a long bulk, with 8 months being my initial aim


 That sounds like a recipe to get fat, which would not be smart. I'd suggest aiming to gain weight with minimal fat gain.

How did you get on with PHUL? That's much more the way I'd suggest going than yet more low rep training if you're looking to gain size.


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## JAtkinson (May 18, 2014)

Sorry that might have came across wrong, i would only start adding more kcals when i wasnt seeing a change on the scales.

With regards to PHUL i did enjoy it, the variation in training was a welcome change from SL, at the time I just wasnt sure if my lifts were at a level where I would benefit from an upper/lower routine and so moved back onto trying to bring the lifts to a stronger point.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

JAtkinson said:


> Sorry that might have came across wrong, i would only start adding more kcals when i wasnt seeing a change on the scales.
> 
> With regards to PHUL i did enjoy it, the variation in training was a welcome change from SL, at the time I just wasnt sure if my lifts were at a level where I would benefit from an upper/lower routine and so moved back onto trying to bring the lifts to a stronger point.


 Quick reply, but there's no reason to think you need to be stronger to benefit from a routine like PHUL (or your own variant based on the idea). You're not weak anyway.

I think Stronglifts is a good routine for beginners to learn and get stronger at the major lifts, but I wouldn't recommend anyone does it long term if size is their priority. Whatever you choose to do next I would follow Smitch's advice and include at least some higher rep work.


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## Dan94 (Dec 29, 2013)

If hypertrophy is your goal then I'd definitely follow a PPL routine or full body routine depending on how many times you workout/can get to the gym

As the others said strength work (5 reps) will maximise strength not muscle growth/aesthetics. Try do 3-5 sets and 8-15 reps of each exercise


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## ausmaz (Jul 14, 2014)

I might be out on my own here, but imo how many reps you choose to train with has very little to do with what you look like....

'Aesthetics' is basically low bodyfat....how low is pretty subjective but if you carry a reasonable amount of muscle I'd say 10-15% will have you looking better than 99% of people on a beach or at the gym...

From what youve described previously it sounds like your making good progress....my advice would be to try and keep the weight on the bar as you gradually reduce calories....if getting lean is a priority. Take your time with it, a slight reduction in calories over 16 weeks will be much more beneficial than starving yourself over 8...

And this 5 reps works strength, 12 reps hypertrophy, 20 reps endurance is just broscience....progressive overload + caloric surplus = muscle gain....maintain training loads + calorie deficit = get leaner.... all things being equal... good luck man


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## JAtkinson (May 18, 2014)

thanks for all the reaponses guys, much appreciated.

I did a little more reading last night and came across a PPL which is based on linear progession on the big lifts and high rep accessory work.

I've never done any real high rep work or PPL style training so hopefully I should benefit from the changes.



ausmaz said:


> 'Aesthetics' is basically low bodyfat....how low is pretty subjective but if you carry a reasonable amount of muscle I'd say 10-15% will have you looking better than 99% of people on a beach or at the gym...


 Ausmaz, I agree with the above my problem being that I'm not carrying enough muscle mass, so when i do start to loose a bit of fat I just end up looking like a smaller version of myself.

I'm going to run this PPL for 3 month and see how I get on whilst been in a bit of surplus and will keep an eye on my fat levels and readjust.

Again thanks for the comments.

J


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## ausmaz (Jul 14, 2014)

JAtkinson said:


> thanks for all the reaponses guys, much appreciated.
> 
> I did a little more reading last night and came across a PPL which is based on linear progession on the big lifts and high rep accessory work.
> 
> ...


 Unfortunately mate, if your natural youll never have enough muscle mass! The dilemma is: if your "fat" youll be strong and carry as much muscle as your body will naturally hold....if your lean, unless you have a pleasing shape and/or good muscular insertions you wont look that impressive...

Also, your a young guy....quality muscle takes time....keep training to get stronger, whatever format you choose and you will be doing everything possible to get where you want to be. Good luck man


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## JAtkinson (May 18, 2014)

thanks guys, think i'll set up a log to keep myself on track - would be good if any of you can drop by and give any critique where you see fit.

J


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

JAtkinson said:


> I did a little more reading last night and came across a PPL which is based on linear progession on the big lifts and high rep accessory work.


 What rep range is the big lift work focusing on? You earlier mentioned things like 1 and 2 RMs and it's perhaps worth pointing out that training and performance at very low reps has a significant neurological component and so making it less relevant if size is all you're actually concerned with. This is because at low reps you reach a point where muscle fibre recruitment maxes out and rate coding becomes important - have a read of the following for more information:

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-gain/reps-per-set-for-optimal-growth.html/

From the point of view of gaining size, the evidence is growing that a wider range of reps per set can give good results. The following thread covering this may be of interest (I add a few more details re. the study at the start later on).

https://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/topic/289800-lifting-weights-no-need-to-go-heavy/?do=embed



JAtkinson said:


> my problem being that I'm not carrying enough muscle mass, so when i do start to loose a bit of fat I just end up looking like a smaller version of myself.


 If you're talking about what you look like with your shirt off then it may be you haven't got lean enough. There comes a point where you start to look bigger as you get leaner, as a result of the greater definition. You will though of course look smaller in clothes, which I know a lot of people seem to struggle with.


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## JAtkinson (May 18, 2014)

Ultrasonic said:


> What rep range is the big lift work focusing on? You earlier mentioned things like 1 and 2 RMs and it's perhaps worth pointing out that training and performance at very low reps has a significant neurological component and so making it less relevant if size is all you're actually concerned with. This is because at low reps you reach a point where muscle fibre recruitment maxes out and rate coding becomes important - have a read of the following for more information.


 Thanks Ultrasonic, im at work on my phone at the minute but will 100% have a read of the article.

Compound work is done at 5 reps with an AMRAP set to finish. Accessory work is done in the 8-12 and 15-20 rep range so hopefully sufficient variation.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

JAtkinson said:


> Compound work is done at 5 reps with an AMRAP set to finish. Accessory work is done in the 8-12 and 15-20 rep range so hopefully sufficient variation.


 Sounds good to me.


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## JAtkinson (May 18, 2014)

cool, I'm using this week as a feeler week to get to grips with what weights I need to be using but as said before i'm going to set up a log so any input would be welcome.

J


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## The-Real-Deal (Dec 5, 2014)

ausmaz said:


> Unfortunately mate, if your natural youll never have enough muscle mass! The dilemma is: if your "fat" youll be strong and carry as much muscle as your body will naturally hold....if your lean, unless you have a pleasing shape and/or good muscular insertions you wont look that impressive...
> 
> Also, your a young guy....quality muscle takes time....keep training to get stronger, whatever format you choose and you will be doing everything possible to get where you want to be. Good luck man


 Bolix

Load of tosh.......


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## ausmaz (Jul 14, 2014)

Natty Steve'o said:


> Bolix
> 
> Load of tosh.......


 Which bit mate?


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## The-Real-Deal (Dec 5, 2014)

ausmaz said:


> Which bit mate?


 First paragraph imo is utter rubbish.. No offence intended.


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## ausmaz (Jul 14, 2014)

Natty Steve'o said:


> First paragraph imo is utter rubbish.. No offence intended.


 None taken mate, im sure there are exceptions to every rule thats why i included the genetic outliers....but for the rest of us mere mortals we can be one or the other.....fat and strong or small and lean...

Whats your take on it steve?


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## The-Real-Deal (Dec 5, 2014)

ausmaz said:


> None taken mate, im sure there are exceptions to every rule thats why i included the genetic outliers....but for the rest of us mere mortals we can be one or the other.....fat and strong or small and lean...
> 
> Whats your take on it steve?


 Define fat? Between 12 and 15% is sustainable and good for strength size and condition for a natural lifter. You can look big strong and impressive.


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## The-Real-Deal (Dec 5, 2014)

Ultimately the mirror is the tool to use.


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## ausmaz (Jul 14, 2014)

Natty Steve'o said:


> Define fat? Between 12 and 15% is sustainable and good for strength size and condition for a natural lifter. You can look big strong and impressive.


 Its hard to say a %, i think it depends on how much muscle a person carries as well as bone structure and height...

Again, i can only speak from my experience but the best natural athletes ive seen or trained with always looked the best smaller, lighter and leaner... just as a yardstick and so we're on the same page check out a guy called 'matt does fitness' on youtube....he is possibly the best natural guy ive ever seen ( if he is of course natural) he's big,strong and lean (ish) weighs about 100kg @ 6'2" is a genetic outlier and im pretty positive hes not 15%....

Let me know what you think mate...


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## The-Real-Deal (Dec 5, 2014)

Yeah he don't look that impressive to me ......lol

I'm 5' 10 and 106 kg.


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## ausmaz (Jul 14, 2014)

Natty Steve'o said:


> Yeah he don't look that impressive to me ......lol
> 
> I'm 5' 10 and 106 kg.


 You misunderstand me mate, he IS mega impressive! My point was that:

1. He is a genetic outlier

2. He is INCREDIBLY strong

3. He could quite conceivably be using

For the rest of us, we will get nowhere near that...


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## The-Real-Deal (Dec 5, 2014)

ausmaz said:


> You misunderstand me mate, he IS mega impressive! My point was that:
> 
> 1. He is a genetic outlier
> 
> ...


 Really.

Ffs.......


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## ausmaz (Jul 14, 2014)

Natty Steve'o said:


> Really.
> 
> Ffs.......


 Sorry mate looks like ive misunderstood again, i meant no offence...just trying to understand  what you meant


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## The-Real-Deal (Dec 5, 2014)

I'm probably bigger more muscular now as we speak. Possibly stronger.

100 kg is quite achievable natty in half decent shape especially at his hight.


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## ausmaz (Jul 14, 2014)

Natty Steve'o said:


> I'm probably bigger more muscular now as we speak. Possibly stronger.
> 
> 100 kg is quite achievable natty in half decent shape especially at his hight.


 Wow! That is impressive mate, i knew you were strong but i didnt realise you were at that level...

It certainly sounds like you carry a lot of size steve, that is some going :thumb


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## The-Real-Deal (Dec 5, 2014)

There's a pic in the natty physique thread taken in April I'm a bit bigger and leaner atm.

Pg 20.


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## Slindog (Oct 6, 2009)

ausmaz said:


> Unfortunately mate, if your natural youll never have enough muscle mass! The dilemma is: if your "fat" youll be strong and carry as much muscle as your body will naturally hold....if your lean, unless you have a pleasing shape and/or good muscular insertions you wont look that impressive...
> 
> Also, your a young guy....quality muscle takes time....keep training to get stronger, whatever format you choose and you will be doing everything possible to get where you want to be. Good luck man


 This is absolutely not true you can be alot of muscle and natural. You really can.


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