# Trenbolone and Deca (Together?)



## AceOfSpadez (May 6, 2010)

Today i want to discuss both Deca and Trenbolone, and why i think they work better together then separately.

First of all, which has the best effects on building muscle? Some say Deca, some say Tren.... and this is quite tricky, cause i don't think i can even give an answer too either.

Anyhow, Trenbolone is known to give better gains, yet the smart individuals who knows about trenbolone would suggest that tren Down Regulates protein synthesis? So hold on a second? if trenbolone down regulates protein synthesis? how come so many people notice its profound ability to help induce quality gains during a bulking cycle?

Well this is what i've learned? and before i go any further i will state that me myself, im not 100% sure if what i state is correct, so i'll say this now? before 1 of the smarter individuals on this forum ends up making a fool of me, and making me feel a general tit 

Trenbolone down regulates protein synthesis, so this makes one wonder how it can be such a good bulker? well here is the reason?, Even when using anabolic steroids the body is in a constant race, the body burns muscle aswell as builds it on a day to day basis, which means that even if you are building muscle? your body is still wasting it, its just about which you're doing faster?... are you building muscle faster? or are you wasting muscle faster? (For those of you who train hard, and eat well, ill answer this 1 for you, you're building it faster then you are losing it) But this doesn't mean that you're still not wasting muscle? at the same time as building it? as i said earlier its a race?

So basically this is where Trenbolone comes into it? Trenbolone has an extremely strong ability to block cortisol at the receptor site, and cortisol is the main reason why our body is in a constant race, of burning muscle aswell as building muscle? and effects of cortisol can be induced, by many factors, Missing a meal? Over training? and so on, but even with out over training and missing meals, the body will still burn muscle aswell as build it... so basically what trenbolone does is it protects the net protein? of your muscles, which would also be the reason why its such a good drug to use during a cutting cycle. it slows the rate of which you burn muscle in conjunction to building it? so it means you're going to add more muscle onto your already hard earned muscle... which would be the reason why? the gains may often be noted BETTER then the any other steroid, and also the reason why trenbolone gets its name GOD of steroids.

Now? lets switch onto deca for a moment here? the smart indervidual that knows deca would also know that it increases the rate of protein synthesis? making it a more better drug for making GAINS then tren in the simple sense? but!!!, for reasons i stated above about trenbolone, its always possible that 1 can make even more gains on trenbolone then taking deca, even though deca has a more profound effect on increasing protein synthesis and increasing the rate of which you build muscle, but as stated above, trenbolones ability to lower the wastage of muscle is stronger then the ability deca has to increase muscle.

So now? lets go back to the RACE? this is why i believe that taking both of them together is better then taking them singly, If 1 drug slows the rate of which you lose muscle (protecting your net protein) and 1 drug increases the rate of which you build muscle (Increasing net protein) why not use both of them for there synergistic effect? that way you will slow the rate of which you waste muscle, making more probability to make more gains and increase the rate you build muscle, making even superior gains.

So say one wants to run 600mg of deca? why not run 400mg of Deca, and 300mg of trenbolone? rather then run deca alone at 600? 300mg of trenbolone is ample for its effect on blocking cortisol... and 400mg od deca is ample for increasing the rate of protein synthesis and making muscle gains.


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## C.Hill (Nov 21, 2010)

Have you run them together?


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## AceOfSpadez (May 6, 2010)

C.Hill said:


> Have you run them together?


I i've seen 2 of my friends do a simular cycle, with the 2drugs along with a testosterone base, and they stated the results where noticeably better then taking either alone with a test base.

Also im monitoring a friend at the moment who's doing 1000mg Test, 600mg Deca, 400mg Tren with Dianabol at 50mg of deca, he plans on running it for 10weeks, and hes using the acetate version of trenbolone.

Hes already in week 5 and so far hes not seen anything spectacular, but we're expecting to see much better results around the 6week + mark as the deca will kick in around then, so we'll judge his results on the finishing end result.


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## AceOfSpadez (May 6, 2010)

Sean91 said:


> Not alot of test :| He's gna face one hell of a floppy willy on that.


I apologise hes on 1200mg of test sorry, i got mixed up, hes taking 3ml a week of Tri-Test 400, so yeah? i think that out weighs that problem... alteast as far as i believe?


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## energize17 (Jul 25, 2009)

How big is you freind that he has to run 2.2g of injectables and 350mg of orals ew thats just crazy IMO


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## Trenzyme (May 4, 2008)

Bashman said:


> I've wondered about doing this but I imagine NPP + Tren ace, the pumps/cramps/sides would be unbearable.


i think prop/npp/ace with ai and caber would make a very nice short cycle, just add an oral to suit  , id only run it 6-8 weeks


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## GolfDelta (Jan 5, 2010)

Why so many question marks??


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## Conscript (Sep 5, 2010)

gduncan said:


> Why so many question marks??


 :ban: ???


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## Trenzyme (May 4, 2008)

Empire Boy said:


> this close to my next cycle I'll start sometime early 2012, depending on how my PCT goes after this one. But no oral, prop/deca/tren ace, at 600mg prop, 400mg Deca and 300mg tren ace a week, for 8 weeks, should be pretty good... and I will run alongside 100mg proviron ed; .5mg adex eod, 1000ui hcg a week, and .5mg caber e3d.


id deffo swap the deca for npp if only doing 8 weeks mate


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## Andy Dee (Jun 1, 2008)

gduncan said:


> Why so many question marks??


This


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## Guest (Jul 31, 2011)

tren effects both protein synthesis and protein degradation similar to what the op mentioned effecting the overall protein turn over rate, while it decreases protein synthesis it also strongly effects protein degradation.

test increases protein synthesis significantly

reason why test and tren are a great combo

test=anabolic

tren=anti-catabolic

as for deca i think quite a few people would suffer from running two 19 nor compounds at the same time unless they use a dopamine agonist like caber. but this would often mean people would have lower test dose to keepm total doses reasonable (unless tren and deca doses are divided but for me anyway that would take away the potency of both)

study on the effects of protein synthesis/degradation of tren

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20961723

(the abstract, i have the entire study if anyone wants to see it)

http://jap.physiology.org/content/66/1/498.abstract

(effects of test on protein synthesis)


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## AceOfSpadez (May 6, 2010)

ricky23 said:


> tren effects both protein synthesis and protein degradation similar to what the op mentioned effecting the overall protein turn over rate, while it decreases protein synthesis it also strongly effects protein degradation.
> 
> test increases protein synthesis significantly
> 
> ...


Fair points, but i believe the 19nor sides on prolactin are really over dramatic, i've known plenty to run deca over 600mg or trenbolone over 600mg with out caber, obviously the smart indervidual will always have caber on hand incase, but i mean? seriously? as long as you have caber on hand? i don't see what all the drama is about? it think its very stupid how much fuss goes into this whole PROLACTING GYNO.

Why is it people think that? if you add 2 19 nor's its gonna make prolactin any worse then just 1 alone? at a higher dose? i mean? if you run 800mg of deca, and you don't get prolactin, then you're no more likley to get prolactin from 400deca and 400tren.

Also, i'm a strong believer that 500mg of deca is AMPLE for gains, and i don't believe anymore is needed then that alone... and im also a strong believer that trenbolone at 300mg is ample also? you don't need more of neither unless you've been over atlast 10cycles in my opinion... obviously this may vairy individual to individual... but i really think taking them both together increases the potency of just taking 1 alone.... even at a higher dosage... and im also a strong believer in that 25mcg of t3 should be adding into every steroid cycle as this also helps increase the rate of protein turn over, so this would make gains even more superior in conjunction with the two steroids.


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## Guest (Jul 31, 2011)

AceOfSpadez said:


> Fair points, but i believe the 19nor sides on prolactin are really over dramatic, i've known plenty to run deca over 600mg or trenbolone over 600mg with out caber, obviously the smart indervidual will always have caber on hand incase, but i mean? seriously? as long as you have caber on hand? i don't see what all the drama is about? it think its very stupid how much fuss goes into this whole PROLACTING GYNO.
> 
> Why is it people think that? if you add 2 19 nor's its gonna make prolactin any worse then just 1 alone? at a higher dose? i mean? if you run 800mg of deca, and you don't get prolactin, then you're no more likley to get prolactin from 400deca and 400tren.
> 
> Also, i'm a strong believer that 500mg of deca is AMPLE for gains, and i don't believe anymore is needed then that alone... and im also a strong believer that trenbolone at 300mg is ample also? you don't need more of neither unless you've been over atlast 10cycles in my opinion... obviously this may vairy individual to individual... but i really think taking them both together increases the potency of just taking 1 alone.... even at a higher dosage... and im also a strong believer in that 25mcg of t3 should be adding into every steroid cycle as this also helps increase the rate of protein turn over, so this would make gains even more superior in conjunction with the two steroids.


the smart individual would realise that some make better gains from tren than deca or visa versa so running one at a higher dose would be better and also that very same smart individual would stop typing like a moron and referring to the third person as a smart individual!!!!

:cursing:


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## infernal0988 (Jun 16, 2011)

I do not see the problem with running em together as long as it has a good Test base (Thinking of libido issues) As far as gyno goes as long as you`v got the drugs to combat it is it really a problem? You will be a strong ****er if you run it though lol


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## vetran (Oct 17, 2009)

Bashman said:


> *Would be one very expensive cycle* for a couple more lbs and some increased strength as opposed to just running with of them.


ha i wish i never heard of the word steroid,could of had a speed boat and a caravan now lol.


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## steeley (Sep 29, 2009)

At the beginning of this year i ran 2g of test alongside 600mg deca and 600mg tren ace pw.

The main objection i heard from people for using these 2 meds together was the potential heavy shutdown, but as i 'blast' and 'cruise' for me this wasnt an issue.

I thought the cycle was great. It seemed i was getting the increased 'mass' associated with deca alongside the vascularity from the tren.

I also ran 50mg proviron pd, which i something i run year round.

Libido was through the roof so i didnt need Caber.

However, towars the end of the 12 week cycle my nipples became very 'puffy' and they began to lactate. Once the 12 weeks had finished i ran Caber, at 1 tab pw for 8 weeks and it completely cleared.

Implanning to run this same cycle again, alongside GH and slin in around 2 months and ill probably run the Caber for the duration.


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## AceOfSpadez (May 6, 2010)

ricky23 said:


> the smart individual would realise that some make better gains from tren than deca or visa versa so running one at a higher dose would be better and also that very same smart individual would stop typing like a moron and referring to the third person as a smart individual!!!!
> 
> :cursing:


Lol, by smart individual i was hoping you'd get the gist of what i was implying towards you, because if you read, both drugs work in different ways? and the point i was putting across was stacking them together gives them a more powerful synergistic effect then 1 alone at a higher dose... which is why i made this article in the first place, to try put a point across... eitherway, your opinion is yours my opinion is mine... i personally think this is better then running 1 alone, im sure just like 1 may like deca more then tren and another may like tren more then deca, another individual may like tren and deca both together instead? so maybe you should try it before you knock it? then you'd be able to give a decent opinion, instead of bad mouthing, and looking for reasons to be an jackass?

I can't personally say, i have the experiance of doing this cycle, but theres been plenty of people i've known who swear by it, and who think its the ultimate way to bulk, along side a good diet and hard training.

So anyhow lets not be a smart ass and try bad mouthing, i want to keep this thread clean of any mockery or insult.


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## Guest (Jul 31, 2011)

AceOfSpadez said:


> Lol, by smart individual i was hoping you'd get the gist of what i was implying towards you, because if you read, both drugs work in different ways? and the point i was putting across was stacking them together gives them a more powerful synergistic effect then 1 alone at a higher dose... which is why i made this article in the first place, to try put a point across... eitherway, your opinion is yours my opinion is mine... i personally think this is better then running 1 alone, im sure just like 1 may like deca more then tren and another may like tren more then deca, another individual may like tren and deca both together instead? so maybe you should try it before you knock it? then you'd be able to give a decent opinion, instead of bad mouthing, and looking for reasons to be an jackass?
> 
> I can't personally say, i have the experiance of doing this cycle, but theres been plenty of people i've known who swear by it, and who think its the ultimate way to bulk, along side a good diet and hard training.
> 
> So anyhow lets not be a smart ass and try bad mouthing, i want to keep this thread clean of any mockery or insult.


there are so many contradictions in your post that i cant even be ****d to point em out!

great article btw :thumb:

lol boy i needed a laugh! :lol:


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## AceOfSpadez (May 6, 2010)

ricky23 said:


> there are so many contradictions in your post that i cant even be ****d to point em out!
> 
> great article btw :thumb:
> 
> lol boy i needed a laugh! :lol:


You're probz right, i wrote it out with out looking back to correct any errors.... eitherway i don't particularly care, i just want a clean discussion, i think you get the point im trying to put across about your bad mouthing and lack of experiance to give such opinions  xxx


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## Guest (Jul 31, 2011)

AceOfSpadez said:


> You're probz right, i wrote it out with out looking back to correct any errors.... eitherway i don't particularly care, i just want a clean discussion, i think you get the point im trying to put across about your bad mouthing and lack of experiance to give such opinions  xxx


funny guy! 192 lbs and an 80kg bench complaining about bloat after each meal not knowing if its the deca asking for someone with"experience" to reply suddenly writing articles about aas! nice going!


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## AceOfSpadez (May 6, 2010)

ricky23 said:


> funny guy! 192 lbs and an 80kg bench complaining about bloat after each meal not knowing if its the deca asking for someone with"experience" to reply suddenly writing articles about aas! nice going!


i did say i was talking from research and people who've used the drug... in the other thread i made, and 80kg bench press? dude? im upto 100kg now for 8reps, i only started from scratch to work my way up.... hey dude? im sure you fancy me or something, you're stalking me


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## Guest (Jul 31, 2011)

AceOfSpadez said:


> i did say i was talking from research and people who've used the drug... in the other thread i made, and 80kg bench press? dude? im upto 100kg now for 8reps, i only started from scratch to work my way up.... hey dude? im sure you fancy me or something, you're stalking me


100kg for 8...wow golly im impressed lol

and... dude... have you seen your pics? i dont think you have to worry about stalkers lol

(but this will be the last time i post in this thread or "article" because youre starting to bore me)


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## AceOfSpadez (May 6, 2010)

Just thought i'd add that im now 15stone in weight exactly. thats 95kgs so im 209lbs now  either muscle memory or a **** load of water? cause this is actually freaking me out how much weight im putting on in such a small amount of time... although saying that i bet any money when i weigh myself in the morning im half a stone lighter, and around 14 and a half stone.... but still? im going up and down like a YO YO.

Also just for a certin few of you out there... before this cycle i had quit training for around 1month solid? so when i started training i dropped my weights low untill i get back into routeen and felt confident enough to make heavier lifts... so these are my lifts as of recently.

Bench press 100kg for 8

Squat 140kg for 8

bicep curl 45kg for 8

Chest Press 42.5kg for 8

Dumbell Shoulder press 38kg for 8

Deadlift 155kg for 8

Skull crusher 50kg for 8

strength seems to be on the increasing, i know the lifts have went up a lot? since my last post, but around 7months back on my 3rd ever cycle i was lifting about the same amount, if not higher...

Deffonately realise the strength gains on deca a lot more then i noticed the strength gains on my last cycle with trenbolone.


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## AceOfSpadez (May 6, 2010)

ricky23 said:


> 100kg for 8...wow golly im impressed lol
> 
> and... dude... have you seen your pics? i dont think you have to worry about stalkers lol
> 
> (but this will be the last time i post in this thread or "article" because youre starting to bore me)


Well i kinda want you to keep replying, its actually entertaining reading your bitchy remarks... and yeah? wait till you see the after pictures, then you can jizz in your pants... those pics i posted up? i've been a lot bigger, by far the worst pics i could have posted up, i just wanted to make the end result look all that more magical, so keep your eyes peal'd and get ready for my finishing pics, ill post up some tasters just for you around week 6 of my cycle  see if that gets your wood standing, when im around 215lbs.


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## AceOfSpadez (May 6, 2010)

2weeks 5days and i already feel and look bigger? what do you guys think?


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## Trenzyme (May 4, 2008)

AceOfSpadez said:


> Just thought i'd add that im now 15stone in weight exactly. thats 95kgs so im 209lbs now  either muscle memory or a **** load of water? cause this is actually freaking me out how much weight im putting on in such a small amount of time... although saying that i bet any money when i weigh myself in the morning im half a stone lighter, and around 14 and a half stone.... but still? im going up and down like a YO YO.
> 
> Also just for a certin few of you out there... before this cycle i had quit training for around 1month solid? so when i started training i dropped my weights low untill i get back into routeen and felt confident enough to make heavier lifts... so these are my lifts as of recently.
> 
> ...


dont want to sound like ass but those lifts are quite poor for someone with your gear use and stats mate, im just over 15 st atm and do 200kg deads and sqauts for 8-10 reps


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## Guest (Aug 1, 2011)

AceOfSpadez said:


> Well i kinda want you to keep replying, its actually entertaining reading your bitchy remarks... and yeah? wait till you see the after pictures, then you can jizz in your pants... those pics i posted up? i've been a lot bigger, by far the worst pics i could have posted up, i just wanted to make the end result look all that more magical, so keep your eyes peal'd and get ready for my finishing pics, ill post up some tasters just for you around week 6 of my cycle  see if that gets your wood standing, when im around 215lbs.


look, i was being a bit childish yesterday (maybe cos i had a few) but in all seriousness imho you're starting to embarrass yourself and if you insist on me looking at your pics with your pms then i must say that imo you haven't seen what serious training is.

i hate to do this and really hate when people blow their own horns (such as you even though you dont have anything to boast about) im 22 when i was 21 i weighed 18 stone and my bench was 180kg 1rm deadlift 250kg squat 210kg for reps and behind the neck press 140kg 1rm.

im currently layed up with a torn pec tendon and im still doing twice your weight loads.

i try to be as nice as i possibly can and to people and have calmed down alot but believe me you're someone who i would fck bodybuilding for and go back to my old ways and show up at your door regardless of who answered they'd be in fcking trouble.

stick to being a keyboard warrior and leave the real **** to us


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## Trenzyme (May 4, 2008)

Empire Boy said:


> He might not be training that long...to be honest, Ace, you look bigger than me, but strength is not all in how you look, its how long you've been training and technique... I do reps on flat bench (I start raw, but start arching on reps 3-5) at 125kg x 5 (was at 135kg x5 at my strongest before I had to drop the tbol, bench has always been my best compound since I was a kid, I can max out at 165kg now, but had a great day where I put up 175kg 6 weeks ago...I thought it was 180kg, but was wrong...anyways), I dead 190kg x 5, on a really good day 195 x 5 (I just can't seem to do more than 2 x 200kg...technique probs me thinks)...your squat looks OK, but are you getting below parallel? Anyways even when I was a weak fat arrse I was close, lower, but close, to your weights (except squat, your squat is good at 140kg x 8, but I'm wondering if you're below pparallel on those reps each time...). So maybe look into a personal strength trainer, as you do indeed look in very good shape and have decent mass, but could probably use some help from a pro...or just find the strength blokes in your gym, they are there, the ones always doing deads and squats non stop, probably all wacked out on halo...


Im s strength over mass type of guy so my opinions are probs differant to most,

im one of they guys you mention ..always doing deads and squats all wacked out on halo tren or oxy lol


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## Guest (Aug 1, 2011)

this was such an awesome forum with real nice people until i came across this ****er.

whenver youre down london shoot me a pm


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## energize17 (Jul 25, 2009)

Looool at this thread


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## infernal0988 (Jun 16, 2011)

bodybuilding is about forming your body the way you want it not how much weight you lift, sorry about the torn pec tendon ricky23 must suck hope you get well soon mate! As for Trenzyme their are more then one ways to skinn a cat , most here are bodybuilders ho want to look good and change their body to what they want it to look like, training is only a part of bodybuilding , nutrition , rest , water inntake, then comes supps then comes gear and gear is not a magic potion sonny.


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## Trenzyme (May 4, 2008)

infernal0988 said:


> bodybuilding is about forming your body the way you want it not how much weight you lift, sorry about the torn pec tendon ricky23 must suck hope you get well soon mate! As for Trenzyme their are more then one ways to skinn a cat , most here are bodybuilders ho want to look good and change their body to what they want it to look like, training is only a part of bodybuilding , nutrition , rest , water inntake, then comes supps then comes gear and gear is not a magic potion sonny.


i dont get you mate ,, ace put up lists of his lifts as if to show off so i just said what i thought and then gave reasons why i said what i did,

sonny.. lmao


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## energize17 (Jul 25, 2009)

```

```
Who cant do reps on a 100kg these days especially on gear its not impressive at All

Look at dynamo hes natty and he benched 155kg at 10 stone raw:laugh:


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## QuadFather94 (Jul 26, 2010)

energize17 said:


> Look at dynamo hes natty and he benched 155kg at 10 stone raw:laugh:
> 
> 
> ```
> ...


I thought I was good doing 100kg for reps fml !  hah oj xD


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## Trenzyme (May 4, 2008)

diixxy said:


> I thought I was good doing 100kg for reps fml !  hah oj xD


steady away mate, as long as you work hard and take youre test itll go up


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## AceOfSpadez (May 6, 2010)

Trenzyme said:


> dont want to sound like ass but those lifts are quite poor for someone with your gear use and stats mate, im just over 15 st atm and do 200kg deads and sqauts for 8-10 reps


Yeah i know pal, but at my heaviest i was 210, and i was a lower bodyfat then i am now, and i was lifting much heavier then those weights, remember this is only week 2? and i hadn't trained for a month or 2 since, so i decided i would start off low and work my way into progression, i think my lifts will get more impressive as the time goes by, give me a chance... at the moment, im focusing more on form, and i'm very strict on form, and im making sure all reps are slow and controled.. 2seconds lifting phase 4seconds lowering phase.... almost as if im allowing the weight to lower my arms, i do believe if i went for a more explosive approach i could possibly add more onto my lifts, but quality over quantity in this matter, aslong as i increase the weights week by week, i should be fine....

As for squats and deadlifts, i know this sounds poor? but i've only recently started deadlifts last year? and im really scared of them? seen a lot of back injuries, i do believe i could go heavier easily? by all means? but its just the fact i'm still learning correct form and technique and scared to go heavier incase i cause myself an injury... also, the same goes for squats, i used to rely on the leg press machine, and its only been recently i went free bar, and i've noticing its SO much harder then on the leg press, feel so much more out of breathe, and my heart races like crazy just after my 4th rep... almost as if im doing an intense cardio session hahaha.


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## AceOfSpadez (May 6, 2010)

Empire Boy said:


> He might not be training that long...to be honest, Ace, you look bigger than me, but strength is not all in how you look, its how long you've been training and technique... I do reps on flat bench (I start raw, but start arching on reps 3-5) at 125kg x 5 (was at 135kg x5 at my strongest before I had to drop the tbol, bench has always been my best compound since I was a kid, I can max out at 165kg now, but had a great day where I put up 175kg 6 weeks ago...I thought it was 180kg, but was wrong...anyways), I dead 190kg x 5, on a really good day 195 x 5 (I just can't seem to do more than 2 x 200kg...technique probs me thinks)...your squat looks OK, but are you getting below parallel? Anyways even when I was a weak fat arrse I was close, lower, but close, to your weights (except squat, your squat is good at 140kg x 8, but I'm wondering if you're below pparallel on those reps each time...). So maybe look into a personal strength trainer, as you do indeed look in very good shape and have decent mass, but could probably use some help from a pro...or just find the strength blokes in your gym, they are there, the ones always doing deads and squats non stop, probably all wacked out on halo...anyways, I'm off to the gym, deads, military press and squats today, with some isolation on shoulders and back, yippeee.


Yeah i totally appreicate what your saying pal, and i have 1 of my pals training me at the moment whos a junior nabba champion, hes been my training partner for a full year now, and hes been trying to get me into these free bar lifts and stuff? i find it pretty scary myself, but hes teaching me the correct technique, but to be honest, i think technique is something that can ALWAYS be improved on... and so far i do believe im in great need of improvement in that direction... i don't go as low as i should when i squat, my pal often tells me i need to go lower, or lower the weight... although it feels easy? its just getting the correct technique, he had me doing hack squats the other night there and i ended up falling on my ass, lucky its only able to be done on a smith machine, otherwise i'd have probz been crushed if the shutters wern't there to save my ass HAHAHA


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

Hi Ace... I didn't realise there was a whole thread on this.... how about you post up the PM i sent you on the topic... i didn't keep a copy.. but I think it points out a lot of facts regarding the effects of tren/deca- i.e neither is superior for blocking cortisol, over just about ANYOTHER AAS... as thats what ALL AASs do..


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## AceOfSpadez (May 6, 2010)

ricky23 said:


> look, i was being a bit childish yesterday (maybe cos i had a few) but in all seriousness imho you're starting to embarrass yourself and if you insist on me looking at your pics with your pms then i must say that imo you haven't seen what serious training is.
> 
> i hate to do this and really hate when people blow their own horns (such as you even though you dont have anything to boast about) im 22 when i was 21 i weighed 18 stone and my bench was 180kg 1rm deadlift 250kg squat 210kg for reps and behind the neck press 140kg 1rm.
> 
> ...


Hmm, 22? hmm damn, thought you'd have been older with a back that wide, saying that though, my pals are 22 and i'd say they're roughly the same size as you, pretty impressive though for anyone that age? as for the keyboard warrior part? i don't quite understand that? and i don't understand what you mean about going back to your old ways either and turning up at my door?

It sounds like you're making out that you're some hard ass? who enjoys fighting? and turns upto peoples door all juiced up wanting to cause some pain? LOL, if so then i think this post you just written actually embarrasses yourself? thats very immature, and lads our age usually grow out of that by the age of 15, Oh and another thing? i think we've all been down that road of violence, your no different to anyone else, but a real man learns to walks away in the end, and a real man learns to fight out his battles with his mouth and his keyboard fighting skillz... so yeah? i prefer being a keyboard power ranger, although i don't see where i've been being a one? cause i never once made a single GIST that i thought i could take you physically in anyway.

You know i was starting to actually appreciate your post for a moment there untill i seen the end bit... i honestly hate people who get all juiced up and big then start making threatening comments like that? god damn, people with an aggresive nature shouldn't even use steroids, just gives the media another excuse to blame "ROID RAGE" for every juiced up idiots hissy fit.


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## AceOfSpadez (May 6, 2010)

ausbuilt said:


> Hi Ace... I didn't realise there was a whole thread on this.... how about you post up the PM i sent you on the topic... i didn't keep a copy.. but I think it points out a lot of facts regarding the effects of tren/deca- i.e neither is superior for blocking cortisol, over just about ANYOTHER AAS... as thats what ALL AASs do..


Oh damn!, and here was me thinking i was onto something good :S


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

AceOfSpadez said:


> Oh damn!, and here was me thinking i was onto something good :S


mate i've said to you many times before in PMs.. you're looking for magic, when there is none.... take a decent amount of gear, eat and train hard.. in your case train harder... my girl front squats 50% of your squat weight with her ass to the floor..and she's only training for a bikini comp... I suspect you don't eat enough, nor train hard enough and are looking for magic in the "potions".

quite frankly, i've got a close relative whos 6'3" and varies between 116-123kg with abs.. does sets 10x10 squats with 200kg as an example.. he's 20... he eats and trains like a machine (puts me to shame).

Ricky123 has a VERY good grasp on gear, but also on Diet and obviously training... gear, esp when bulking is VERY SIMPLE, and I often say the attached advice is a bit simplistic, but will get you a long way to getting huge:

DIET

VERY simple. Very important that you try to get as

close to 500g of protein per day. Easiest way to do

that is to have a whey protein shake in water with

every meal. Fats and carbs don't matter. Calories

don't count, macro nutrients (protein, fat, carb) do.

If you get to add fat on, just cut out the fats and

keep your carbs bellow 300g/day. That's all it is!

Very simple, but hard to stick to, so not many people

get results. On gear, the more protein you eat, the

more you grow. Is as simple as that. Gear maximises

protein synthesis.

GEAR

You need a testosterone base. 750mg/week is plenty.

You need an anabolic - deca or Eq at 400mg/week is

plenty. You need for optimum growth, a good oral like

d-bol at 30mg/d or A-50 50mg/d.

You use the test and the anabolic non stop. The oral

is 4 weeks on 4 weeks off. Every 6th week (the half

way point between the off oral period - so 2 weeks

after you finish the oral) you have a blood test. If

the blood test is OK, then you can begin your next 4

weeks on oral. There is no reason for you to come off.

The only 2 reasons are health or your receptors are

saturated. If the regular blood test is OK, your

health is OK. If you are still making progress, your

receptors are OK. Coming off, will just sabotage your

gains. That's why I do not believe in set time frames

for cycles. Listen to your body. When you use the

oral, you need to use all the liver aids available - Synthergine,

milk thistle, L-methionine, liv-52, etc. Of course you

cannot drink or do rec drugs during that time. Using

these precautions, your blood tests will be OK.

You also need to use an anti estrogen like Nolvadex at

10mg/d throughout the whole time. Also, you have a

choice between HCG every 4 weeks at 5000IU or Clomid

at 50mg EOD. These will make sure that your balls will

stay at a decent size and they will not forget how to

function.

The blood tests that you need are: full blood count,

liver and kidney function tests, FSH, LH, TSH,

cholesterol.

If the Total protein test in the liver tests is high,

that is because of your diet. You need to keep an eye

on the Billirubin and Urea test results. Your FSH and

LH will be suppressed - that's normal because of the

gear. If the TSH is low, add 20mcg/d T3. If the kidney

function is off, then drink more. protein stresses the

kidneys, so you need more fluids.

When you eventually come off the gear, you make sure

that you are off the orals. Then cut out the anabolic

over 2 weeks. Then the testosterone over 3 weeks. One

week after that, you need to add primo tabs or anavar

(oxandrin) for 3 weeks. That will ensure that you will

keep your gains.

Ideally do a gainkeeper's formula that is outlined in another article.

These are the basic principles behind muscle growth. You do the above you will GROW, no matter what.

Training:

TRAINING

Why does a muscle grow? Because it has to adapt. When

does it have to adapt? When you expose it to something

that it has not done before. When is something that it

has not done before? When the muscle is taxed 100%.

That's 100% effort. What's 100% effort? When you train

to 100% PHYSICAL, not mental failure. So, to make the

muscle grow, you have to train with 100% effort

otherwise, the muscle will not adapt/grow.

Now, using the above logic, for a set to be beneficial

to your growth, it needs to be 100% effort. So, a 100%

effort set of an exercise, will make you grow. Then,

what is the point to do a second set of that exercise?

You cannot go more than 100%. The muscle already has

been taxed by 100% from the first set, so why should

you do a second one? You will just eat into your

recovery ability.

So, you should only do one set to failure per

exercise. Later on, I will describe the training

program and how exercises and warm-ups are involved.

A muscle will not grow until it's recovered. The

muscle will not begin to recover until the nervous

system is recovered. It takes roughly 24hours for the

nervous system to recover from a workout. Only then

will the muscle begin to recover and grow. So, you

should never train 2 days in a row. Even if you train

different bodyparts, you still use the same nervous

system. You train 2 days in a row, your nervous system

recovers, but by the time the muscles begin to, you

train again, so the body has to concentrate again on

recovering the nervous system.

A training frequency of 3 days per week (Mon, Wed,

Fri) is more than enough. Numerous pros, including

myself, train like this offseason for maximum growth.

Even if you use streroids, you still have to train

like this. steroids increase your recovery ability,

but they also make you stronger at a quicker rate. The

extra strength will give you the ability to train

harder/tear more muscle tissue, so you will need the

extra recovery that the steroids will give you.

The following is a great training program that I

recomend:

Mon - Chest, Shoulders, Triceps

* Incline press - warm-up sets, 1 work set

* Flat flyes - 1 work set

* Millitary press - 1 warm-up, 1 work set

* Lateral flyes - 1 work set

* Rear delt machine - 1 work set

* Tricep pushdowns - 1 warm-up, 1 work set

* Lying tricep extensions - 1 work-set

Wed - Quads, Hams, Calves

* Squats - warm-ups, 1 work set

* Leg press - work set

* Leg extension - work set

* Leg curl - warm-up, work set

* Stiff leg deadlift - work set

* Standing calf raise - work set

Fri - Abs, Back, Bis

* Rope crunches - warm up, work set

* Lat pull down - warm-ups, work set

* Deadlift - warm-up, work set

* Bent-over rows - work set

* Shrugs - work set

* Standing BB curls - warm up, work set

* Concentration curl - work set

You do a lot of warm-ups for your first exercise of

the day. You do one warm-up for the first exercise of

each bodypart, only to optimise the firing of te

neuropathways.

Let's use chest as an example - if for example your

max (work set) in the incline press is 3 plates, then

you do 2 warm-ups with the bar, 2 warm-ups with one

plate, 1 warm-up with 2 plates and then your work set

with 3 plates. The work set is a set where you fail at

about 6 reps. Every workout, you have to do more reps

or increase the weight in that work set (remember, the

muscle has to do something that it has not done

before). So if one work out you fail with 6 reps, the

following nothing less than 7. When you reach 8 reps,

the following workout you should do (increase) a

weight where you can do minimum 4 reps. Then increase

your reps again every workout until you reach 8 again,

and so on. Each rep has a tempo of 2-1-1. That is 2

seconds in the negative, one second in the contraction

and 1 second in the positive.

Then, after you fail in the incline press, you move

straight to flat flyes. You do not need a warmp now

because your chest is more than warm after you failed

on presses.

And that's it for chest. The basic routine stays the

same. If you want variety, small changes as using DB's

instead of BB or doing flat presse and incline flyes

for example, is mor ethan enough variety to keep the

muscle 'confused'.

DELETED LINK YET AGAIN. STOP POSTING THAT LINK, I AM GETTING FED UP TELLING YOU.


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## AceOfSpadez (May 6, 2010)

my god.... i've never heard such crap..

1. look at cortisol: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cortisol

2. look at thyroid: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thyroid

what do you see? cortisol breaks down protein (muscle) into amino acids for gluconeogenesis (this only happens if there are no carbs- otherwise the body prefers glycolisis:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glycolysis

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gluconeogenesis

You will notice in the 2nd para in gluconeogenesis it specifically states "It is one of the two main mechanisms humans and many other animals use to keep blood glucose levels from dropping too low (hypoglycemia)."

now, you also need to understand Protein Turnover Rate: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protein_turnover

Now you will see the biggest influence on PTOR, is THYROID!! You read that above right?? in the thyroid article where it says:

"...The thyroid gland controls how quickly the body uses energy, makes proteins, and controls how sensitive the body should be to other hormones..."

now one of these other hormones is insulin: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insulin

look under "physiological effects" you will see it says:

"The actions of insulin on the global human metabolism level include:

-Control of cellular intake of certain substances, most prominently glucose in muscle and adipose tissue (about two-thirds of body cells)

-Increase of DNA replication and protein synthesis via control of amino acid uptake.."

so T3 effects HOW FAST protein turns over (builds up/degrades) but INSULIN can shift the balance to MORE SYNTHESIS.. thats why INSULIN is ANABOLIC.

Now we come to AAS:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anabolic_steroid

Look under "mechanism of action" and what does it say? its says ALL AAS "...increase the production of proteins; second, they reduce recovery time by blocking the effects of stress hormone cortisol on muscle tissue, so that catabolism of muscle is greatly reduced. It has been hypothesized that this reduction in muscle breakdown may occur through anabolic steroids inhibiting the action of other steroid hormones called glucocorticoids that promote the breakdown of muscles.[23] Anabolic steroids also affect the number of cells that develop into fat-storage cells, by favouring cellular differentiation into muscle cells instead.[24] Anabolic steroids can also decrease fat by increasing basal metabolic rate (BMR), since an increase in muscle mass increases BMR."

So, where does that leave deca/tren?

Let me tell you, both deca and tren are BOTH progestins (related to progesterone), and are 19-nortestosterone derivatives. The main difference between the two? well, Deca is less androgenic, and binds very strongly at the Androgen Receptor (See mechanism of action of AAS above); and tren less so, but it its more androgenic. What does this mean? well D-bol only weakly binds at the AR, but its effects are great- and no one knows for sure how all the signals from AAS are delivered.

However, there is NO proof that Tren blocks cortisol more than Deca, and moreover than tren makes you gain more than deca... all the old timers used deca (eg Arnie) and they all grew... tren has not transformed everyone on UK-M.... Tren got popular in the USA as it was able to be made from cattle implant pellets... and people thought they grew more from taking drugs that where designed to pack meat on bulls.... but to be frank there is nothing special about tren over deca... except its more androgenic- and this is useful pre-comp (tren acetate). Otherwise, if not dieting (pre-comp, 4 weeks out) and not worrying about water retention, then deca is just as good, if not better....

whoever you're talking to has no idea of how the body works, let alone how deca or tren work better based on the cortisol theory- when ALL AAS block cortisol effects... which is why gains eventually stop- the body starts producing loads of cortisol.. and this causes losses that PCT doesn't catch- as post cycle you have quite high cortisol... so short cycles are ebst...

*Another fantastic post by ausbuilt im afraid *  *, it would seem my theory has been completely mashed hahahaha, i had a feeling this would happen, anyhow great thanks to ausbuilt for shining the light on this topic, although im still gonna give it a try, just to see if it does make any difference, somewhere in the furure.*


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

yep, that was the pm...

Look i'm all for discussion on theories.. but people have to consider the basics first..

The one point I do agree with you AceOfSpadez is that there is somewhat an over focus on prolactin based gyno; both deca and tren aromatise at about 20% the rate of Testosterone, so even 1000mg of tren/deca you're only talking the aromatisation of 200mg of test equivalent.. however, if running with test, there will be increased sensitivity to the progestin levels owing to the rise in oestrogen (assuming an AI is not used...)

of course, if you think there is extra synergy running deca+tren than go right ahead.... then do the same with straight deca and sstraight tren...


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## Trenzyme (May 4, 2008)

ausbuilt said:


> yep, that was the pm...
> 
> Look i'm all for discussion on theories.. but people have to consider the basics first..
> 
> ...


i thought deca had around 40% that of tast for the aromatisation and tren was zero??

i bloat very bad of deca but trn seems to help keep the bloat down slighty


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## henryv (Jul 30, 2009)

AceOfSpadez said:


> Trenbolone down regulates protein synthesis





Bashman said:


> Wonder what Henryv thoughts would be on this?


He disagrees with the basic premise.


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## henryv (Jul 30, 2009)

Trenzyme said:


> i thought deca had around 40% that of tast for the aromatisation and tren was zero??
> 
> i bloat very bad of deca but trn seems to help keep the bloat down slighty


I think Deca's aromatisation is likely to be very low, much lower than 40%. Trenbolone doesn't aromatise.


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## Trenzyme (May 4, 2008)

henryv said:


> I think Deca's aromatisation is likely to be very low, much lower than 40%. Trenbolone doesn't aromatise.


i thought tren didnt , so whys ausbuilt saying it has the same aromatisation as deca??


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## BodyBuilding101 (Mar 8, 2006)

Bump to read in the morning


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## s&amp;ccoach (May 18, 2011)

ausbuilt said:


> mate i've said to you many times before in PMs.. you're looking for magic, when there is none.... take a decent amount of gear, eat and train hard.. in your case train harder... my girl front squats 50% of your squat weight with her ass to the floor..and she's only training for a bikini comp... I suspect you don't eat enough, nor train hard enough and are looking for magic in the "potions".
> 
> quite frankly, i've got a close relative whos 6'3" and varies between 116-123kg with abs.. does sets 10x10 squats with 200kg as an example.. he's 20... he eats and trains like a machine (puts me to shame).
> 
> ...


Old thread but interesting read that aus.

Do you think two working sets per body part is enough for growth to occur?


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## BodyBuilding101 (Mar 8, 2006)

s&ccoach said:


> Old thread but interesting read that aus.
> 
> Do you think two working sets per body part is enough for growth to occur?


Wondering the same thing mate, as im doing like 20+ sets for major body parts!


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## hollywoodtatted (2 mo ago)

steeley said:


> At the beginning of this year i ran 2g of test alongside 600mg deca and 600mg tren ace pw. The main objection i heard from people for using these 2 meds together was the potential heavy shutdown, but as i 'blast' and 'cruise' for me this wasnt an issue. I thought the cycle was great. It seemed i was getting the increased 'mass' associated with deca alongside the vascularity from the tren. I also ran 50mg proviron pd, which i something i run year round. Libido was through the roof so i didnt need Caber. However, towars the end of the 12 week cycle my nipples became very 'puffy' and they began to lactate. Once the 12 weeks had finished i ran Caber, at 1 tab pw for 8 weeks and it completely cleared. Implanning to run this same cycle again, alongside GH and slin in around 2 months and ill probably run the Caber for the duration.


 Man you guys are just out here experimenting on your selfs. So many mistakes here I can’t reply to them all. I’ll start off with you using caber. Taking 1 tab of caber a week for 8 weeks is nuts. Caber is EXTREMELY tough on your body. 4 weeks is plenty (.5mg once a week) also with some of the doses you guys are doing is also baffling. 2grams of test is not needed. 1,200mg of 19nors is also outrageous. You don’t need that much. Like at all. Also keeping your doses at a 2:1 ratio is the THEE best way to run a cycle. If your doing 800mg of test, so 400mg of your 19nor compound. now let’s talk about running Deca and tren together and why you DONT do that. Deca and tren play off the same receptors in your body. When you have 2 compounds that actually do very different things, your receptors don’t know which one to utilize. You’re wasting a good amount of both when you run them together and the combination becomes muddled. And off you’re running over 1,000mg of tren/Deca in a week pinning let’s say, 3 times a week. Thats 333mg per injection. Your body is gonna dump a lot of that and not even use it. So your 1,000 just turned into 700-800. also I remember reading someone said they took caber for gyno….Prolactin and gyno are 2 very different things… hence why when you get blood work done theres 2 different numbers for them.


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## Uptonogood (Feb 23, 2021)

hollywoodtatted said:


> Man you guys are just out here experimenting on your selfs. So many mistakes here I can’t reply to them all. I’ll start off with you using caber. Taking 1 tab of caber a week for 8 weeks is nuts. Caber is EXTREMELY tough on your body. 4 weeks is plenty (.5mg once a week) also with some of the doses you guys are doing is also baffling. 2grams of test is not needed. 1,200mg of 19nors is also outrageous. You don’t need that much. Like at all. Also keeping your doses at a 2:1 ratio is the THEE best way to run a cycle. If your doing 800mg of test, so 400mg of your 19nor compound. now let’s talk about running Deca and tren together and why you DONT do that. Deca and tren play off the same receptors in your body. When you have 2 compounds that actually do very different things, your receptors don’t know which one to utilize. You’re wasting a good amount of both when you run them together and the combination becomes muddled. And off you’re running over 1,000mg of tren/Deca in a week pinning let’s say, 3 times a week. Thats 333mg per injection. Your body is gonna dump a lot of that and not even use it. So your 1,000 just turned into 700-800. also I remember reading someone said they took caber for gyno….Prolactin and gyno are 2 very different things… hence why when you get blood work done theres 2 different numbers for them.


Mate - that post is from 13 years ago and the user hasn't been seen for 8 years. Nice essay but I'm afraid noone is going to read it ya wally 😂😂


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## hollywoodtatted (2 mo ago)

Uptonogood said:


> Mate - that post is from 13 years ago and the user hasn't been seen for 8 years. Nice essay but I'm afraid noone is going to read it ya wally 😂😂


 You read it. (But I did notice the date afterwards. But it could still help some people 🤷🏼‍♂️)


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## DLTBB (Jan 26, 2015)

Wonder if @ausbuilt is still on 500g protein per day?


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## Uptonogood (Feb 23, 2021)

DLTBB said:


> Wonder if @ausbuilt is still on 500g protein per day?


It's possible; but one thing's for sure, even with the pending fuel crisis his nan won't have to worry about getting cold this winter... 🤫


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## G-man99 (Jul 15, 2008)

Uptonogood said:


> It's possible; but one thing's for sure, even with the pending fuel crisis his nan won't have to worry about getting cold this winter... 🤫


Love those DNP sweats in the OAP group


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## Simon90 (Oct 28, 2017)

DLTBB said:


> Wonder if @ausbuilt is still on 500g protein per day?


Not with this cost of living crisis he isn't!


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## Damtra (Jan 8, 2022)

Holy shit what a read


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