# strict keto diet- intermittent ketosis help!!



## hutchy200 (Dec 29, 2009)

Hi guys I've been on cycled keto diet for about 3 weeks now, big cheat meal on a sat usually.

I'm 5'8 170lbs and not too flabby although all weight I have I carry on my belly. Anyway I want to get ripped to the bone or at least have a visible 6 pack.

I'm testing my urine with 7 in 1 urine dipstix and only sometimes I have ketones in my urine and it's really annoying me as I think I'm sticking to it pretty strictly. Where am I going wrong?

Past 3 days diet

730 4 whole eggs 2 back bacon, 2 mushrooms

11am 35g usn whey

1pm 1 tin tuna 1 tablesp full fat mayo

4pm whey as above

630 steak/ 2x chicken breast x mince. Dry rub/no sauce a few greens

I honestly can't see how I'm dropping any more carbs bar the negligible amount in 2mushrooms. Feel grand on the diet. Suspect I'm carb sensitive as I come from a long line of fatties and I myself have always had to be very careful what I eat.

Any advice appreciated and pics are forthcoming

Cheers


----------



## matt2002_uk (Nov 29, 2010)

Something must be kicking you out of keto. Is there a pattern as to when you're out of ketosis?

You said you are having a 'big cheat meal' I run keto and tend to have more of a 'sensible carb up'... it can take me 2 / 3 days to enter keto again after the carb up.


----------



## Andrew Jacks (Sep 29, 2010)

Try isolate whey and increase the fat, you need fat for your body to burn fat once keto continues for a few days lower the fat, do you take any supps like Bcca etc


----------



## Fatstuff (Mar 2, 2010)

I thought when u were on Ckd u only hover in and out of ketosis anyway


----------



## The Ultimate Warrior (Dec 20, 2010)

I have no idea what a 7 in 1 urine dipstix is, but if its anything like a ketostick then they only work if you have diabetes, they are not acurate for normal people Keto Dieting.


----------



## 1Tonne (Jun 6, 2010)

170lbs....

Without macros, i'd hazard a guess of too much protein, not enough fat, and crazy cheat meal.

With macros...well you'd prob see the problem for yourself.


----------



## hsmann87 (Jun 22, 2010)

I got to the condition in my avi through 14 weeks of keto. Was a fat slob before.

My learnings from it were:

Dont go by numbers. What i mean by this is that done be like "i weigh X lbs so i need to eat X calories, X fats, X protem, X carbs"

NOTE: i lived off muschrooms as they are pretty much the only veg that has zero carbs....although i had a load of brocolli every evening to enable me to sh1t very well every morning. I also drank a minimum of 8 pints of water daily - this was required for my to poop well.

Dont be scared to vary it up. For instance you are gonna be fkd after a leg session as opposed to a chest session, so dont be scared to eat a bit more on certain days if need be...you will end up losing far too much muscle otherwise.

Get your cardio in.

If you are losing more than 1.5lbs per week after week 3 you are losing weight too quick and need to up the food.

Ketostik are bollox.

Go by the mirror and/or camera.

In the first 4 weeks, i had one cheat meal every week.

After that i had a full cheat day to further boost metabolism and lose last bits of fat.

Dont worry about "being in a state of ketosis" too much.

You main aim of this diet is to shed bodyfat whilst keeping hold of as much muscle as possible, therefore the main aim of the game is to expend more calories than you put in...HOWEVER....this doesnt mean u eat nothing to get into calorofic deficit.

It is better to eat more and do more cardio as opposed to eat less and do less cardio.

Sorry if some of the points are obvious and patronising, but you would be surprised how silly some people are when it comes to dieting, keto especially.

Whilst keto was very enjoyable and i shed a ton of bodyfat, i am still sceptical as to whether i would do it again.

In the final 2 weeks of dieting, i actually included 300ml of diluted orange juice to be taken during workouts everyday as i was so fkd with so little energy, i needed some form of carbs to keep me going.

You need a lot of mental strength.

Keto is definitely an "experience" lol

And last but not least, enjoy it and good luck. :thumb:

P.S. the whole ketostix thing to check wheter you are in ketosis is bullsh1t IMO. IMHO, you know you are in ketosis when you brush your teeth before bed and you are extremely close to actually chomping and eating the toothpaste as it tastes so fking good. LOL. Seriously that used to happen to me. Brushing my teeth in the evening was the highlight of my day...foodwise anyway.


----------



## control (Jun 15, 2008)

I'm currently 6 weeks in to keto (my avi is my progress so far), the above post pretty much sums my views up.

I enjoy Keto as you can still enjoy good food! if you find that the meals are few and far between try 6-7 smaller meals! i found that for the first weeks this controlled my hunger and by the next 2 hours i was getting hungry and meal time! Also i find the dirtier the carb up the better!

Your diet needs some attention, there is copious amounts of information on here. Have a look in the journal section and find B|G joes competition log - this is where i gathered all my information from and re work your diet accordingly.


----------



## hutchy200 (Dec 29, 2009)

Thanks for all the posts guys really appreciate them, really I do!

The stix are the standard issue hospital ones that measure blood, protein in urine White cells ketones etc! Interestingly a few times I have been registering protein in the urine and I know you have to either have a UTI or eat a **** load to get it to spill in to the urine!

Feedback on the diet please folks? I hadn't mentioned the sunflower oil I was cooking the above in so have more fats than mentioned.

Cheat meal is a weekly Chinese/Indian with the gf and is a concession to her as she doesn't like me being on keto as I usually cook her food but obv can't now! I can register ketones in the urine by lunchtime the day after, so

Not too bad!

I feel great on it, lifts maintained in gym. I'm not doing enough cardio but will correct this.

Supps wise taking a bit of eph, no bcaas should I be? I looked into isolate but tbh my whey is 2.7g carb/45g comp to around 1 in isolate and not even I am anal enough to worry about 1.7g!

Thanks again guys!


----------



## Fatstuff (Mar 2, 2010)

Your allowed to cook carbs while on a keto diet just not eat them lol


----------



## Andrew Jacks (Sep 29, 2010)

hutchy200 if you feel like a retard then you are in keto, have a look at raspberry ketones to help you maintain keto, helped me and will send your ketostix off the scale, try adding some nuts as a good fat to help maintain keto, cheese is another which will help along with cream


----------



## hsmann87 (Jun 22, 2010)

dont worry about the minimal carbs in whey as opposed to isolate.

dont worry about the minimal amount of carbs in mushrooms and greens.

there are traces of carbs in everything.

as long as you arent eating more than about 25/30g carbs daily you should be ok


----------



## hutchy200 (Dec 29, 2009)

Cheers for the replies guys. Will research rasp ketones but are they a case of actually aiding ketosis or actually ketones themselves and so just falsely raising the levels in urine?

Interesting result tonight...big back sessions lots of chins and deads, home for dinner, massive steak was slightly naughty and had 50mls peppercorn sauce (5g carb) and a pile of fried onions and mushrooms, felt a bit guilty as only someone in ckd can understand, even thinking about putting yourself out of ketosis is a crime... The result ++ of ketones, almost +++ which as far as I know is properly DKA territory!

Thoughts on this... Is it... Big back session, big dinner, spurious result?

Still not getting enough cardio in and I'm not shedding a huge amount of fat hopefully will kick in soon going to aim for 500kcal of cardio 3x pw, sound reasonable?


----------



## hutchy200 (Dec 29, 2009)

Oh an ps, I'm not completely spesh I know I can cook carbs I'm not allergic to them lol!

The other thing that has always led me to doubt my ketotic credentials was my complete lack of mind fog or loss of concentration, just hasn't happened me!


----------



## SisterPsychosis (Dec 27, 2010)

JPaycheck said:


> I have no idea what a 7 in 1 urine dipstix is, but if its anything like a ketostick then they only work if you have diabetes, they are not acurate for normal people Keto Dieting.


 J - that's BS. They're not that accurate for diabetics, either. I've been in ketosis (and I know when I am because my p*ss smells of nail-varnish remover - acetone - it's a classic sign) and a ketostick hasn't changed colour (should go from beige to pink/purple).

Being in ketosis and having diabetes are identical, mate. The only difference is non-diabetics don't have problems with slin.


----------



## Raptor (Feb 16, 2010)

SisterPsychosis said:


> J - that's BS. They're not that accurate for diabetics, either. I've been in ketosis (and I know when I am because my p*ss smells of nail-varnish remover - acetone - it's a classic sign) and a ketostick hasn't changed colour (should go from beige to pink/purple).
> 
> Being in ketosis and having diabetes are identical, mate. The only difference is non-diabetics don't have problems with slin.


Can you give yourself diabetes from doing keto?


----------



## hutchy200 (Dec 29, 2009)

I wouldn't have thought so raptor, diabetes, or DM as we call it is either due to a lack of cells making insulin (type 1) caused by autoimmune problems destroying them or a lack of sensitivity to insulin in all the bodies cells (type ii) caused by a woeful diet. If anything I would have thought keto would make one more sensitive to insulin rather than less.


----------



## Raptor (Feb 16, 2010)

Cheers buddy


----------



## Guest (Jan 6, 2011)

i wouldn't rely on the sticks. Theres also more to consider than the amount of ketones in your ****.

If your using them at any time other than first thing in the morning (first **** of the day) then your wasting your time.

If your in a heavy calorie deficiet (which it looks like you are) then its also possible to not register on the sticks. I did a heavy keto and didnt register at all.


----------



## Robbyg (Feb 25, 2008)

I never do the sticks they are a waste to be honest as long as your fats are good and protein they your be ok dont do any booze or too many cheats as its a waste


----------



## Guest (Jan 6, 2011)

i tend to know when im in keto too. Or,, atleast my mrs does. My breathe ****ing stinks when im in keto.


----------



## Robbyg (Feb 25, 2008)

Do you find your pee smells too on keto ?


----------



## Guest (Jan 6, 2011)

yeah, a bit.

Normally like broccoli, cos ill be eating tons of it.


----------



## The Ultimate Warrior (Dec 20, 2010)

SisterPsychosis said:


> J - that's BS. They're not that accurate for diabetics, either. I've been in ketosis (and I know when I am because my p*ss smells of nail-varnish remover - acetone - it's a classic sign) and a ketostick hasn't changed colour (should go from beige to pink/purple).
> 
> Being in ketosis and having diabetes are identical, mate. The only difference is non-diabetics don't have problems with slin.


Thats very innacurate. Are you claiming that Ketostix work for non-diabetic people, Ketogenic dieting? If you think this then I suggest you have a little read up on Keto dieting.

Being in Ketotosis and being diebetic are not identical.

Non-diabetics have a fully functioning body, thus allowing us to absorb and use the ketones, the ones not used will be far to diluted to give any kind of accurate reading.

I can't be bothered to tell you what we use the ketones for, look it up


----------



## Robbyg (Feb 25, 2008)

Yeah i know am the same lol


----------



## The Ultimate Warrior (Dec 20, 2010)

Ahhh everyone beat me too it!! GGRRRR

Yeah classic signs include:

Ketone Breath

Energy Increase

Increased Thirst

A metallic taste in mouth

different smell/colour to urine


----------



## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

Everyone here is missing the fact that ketostix aren't really worth the paper they come on (excuse the pun).

Once you become truely keto adapted your body will be burning ketones for fuel, NOT excreting them in your urine.


----------



## Guest (Jan 6, 2011)

bayman said:


> Everyone here is missing the fact that ketostix aren't really worth the paper they come on (excuse the pun).
> 
> Once you become truely keto adapted your body will be burning ketones for fuel, NOT excreting them in your urine.


Very true! good point.


----------



## The Ultimate Warrior (Dec 20, 2010)

mikex101 said:


> Very true! good point.


HEY! I made this point!


----------



## Guest (Jan 6, 2011)

JPaycheck said:


> HEY! I made this point!


didnt read your post. now i have. so, good point.


----------



## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

JPaycheck said:


> HEY! I made this point!


Sorry if I missed it, only skimmed the thread.


----------



## Raptor (Feb 16, 2010)

JPaycheck said:


> Ahhh everyone beat me too it!! GGRRRR
> 
> Yeah classic signs include:
> 
> ...


I wish :lol:

This time im really struggling because of the low blood glucose levels... 1/2 the time i feel aweful, only been on since the 1st though so im sure things will start to get easier... Im taking Metoformin for the 1st time so this certainly reduces blood glucose, but on a good note im always deep purple in ketosis... last time i only had deep purple once in 5 weeks and was just a shade in to ketosis most the time


----------



## hutchy200 (Dec 29, 2009)

Do people recommend metformin?I can get some relatively easily, what sort of dosage?500mg OD?

Thanks for the advice guys, have added in a very small 6th meal today at 8pm today, 2 eggs 2 back rashers of bacon! Looking forward to seeing results with added cardio, I'm on nights next week though, which absolutely destroys me


----------



## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

1Tonne said:


> 170lbs....
> 
> Without macros, i'd hazard a guess of too much protein, not enough fat, and crazy cheat meal.
> 
> With macros...well you'd prob see the problem for yourself.


CORRECT-

if you are high in protein, your body will use the pathway for gluconeogenesis i.e make glucose from aminos...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gluconeogenesis

so, you need to increase your FAT intake, to provide your body with more substrate (starting blocks) to make ketones for fuel rather than using aminos to build glucose:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketosis

OK so now you know you need to up your fat ratio to induce your body to take the ketogenic pathway...

I made the same mistake previously- high protein intake (lots of zero carb whey in water), measured my Blood Glucose (BG) with a glucometer (I use a bayer contour USB, as it graphs my BG levels automatically on a calender, cost £25 online from Bayer UK), and when on a keto diet, you should have FASTING levels of BG (i.e under 5.6mmol/L glucose reading), however I was consistently above 6.2mmol/L, I thought WTF? damn supplement company is LYING about the zero carbs.... so I SWITCHED to egg whites only.. and my readings didn't change!! thats how I found out that my body is in gluconeogenesis- MAKING GLUCOSE from the HIGH amino content of my diet...

I upped my fats to 50% of my cals, and bang, under 5.6mmol/L EVERY time, and mild ketosis reading on ketostix after morning fasted cardio. WHen I added metformin to the diet, my BG would drop BELOW 4.0mmol/L and I was in ketosis, first thing in the morning, no cardio required.. and in deep ketosis after cardio..

the point is the exact macro ratio is individual; you can ONLY tell if you're going to go into ketosis if you BG readings are under 5.6mmoL, as a STARTING point.. BUT if you're protein is high, and fats at 30% or under.. you're unlikely to get into ketosis owing to gluconeogenesis; Keto stix are not an accurate indicator, BUT you BG levels ARE!

Eventually you learn your body and can judge your macro nutrients and exercise to get into ketosis (metformin REALLY gets you there FAST once you get used to it..) and you don't need to measure your BG levels after every meal.. but I did for 3months.. before the meal, immediately after and 30min after and 1 hour after... so I really know what foods work for me... I CAN"T EMPHASISE enough that until you really know your body, MEASURE your BG levels...


----------



## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

The Raptor said:


> I wish :lol:
> 
> This time im really struggling because of the low blood glucose levels... 1/2 the time i feel aweful, only been on since the 1st though so im sure things will start to get easier... Im taking Metoformin for the 1st time so this certainly reduces blood glucose, but on a good note im always deep purple in ketosis... last time i only had deep purple once in 5 weeks and was just a shade in to ketosis most the time


I get really acidic sweat- stinks real fast.. unusual for me, but the norm in ketosis.. girl won't kiss me in the morning.. LOL actually worst for me is BURNING lungs during cardio.. because a by product in your lungs from ketones... is.. ACETONE.. yes, nail polish remover  (obviously tiny amounts, but the lungs do burn when doing intense cardio!)

Yes, metformin gives you FAST, DEEP ketosis... excellent on CKD...

You will feel CRAP the first week/2weeks, but once your body adjusts to keto for fuel, you fall into a weird feeling where you feel ok, just a little lethargic, I take yohimine HCL to "pep me up" through this, works fantastic (ECA Stack does this too, but I think yohimbine is not as harsh on the nervous system/heart).


----------



## Andrew Jacks (Sep 29, 2010)

hutchy200 said:


> Cheers for the replies guys. Will research rasp ketones but are they a case of actually aiding ketosis or actually ketones themselves and so just falsely raising the levels in urine?
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> I was sceptical but if you believe you are slipping in and out of keto the presence of ketones in your system will help fool your body into thinking the same, the rest is about high fat and keeping carbs as low as you can when starting the keto, a fasted cardio session on the second day always trips mine


----------



## hutchy200 (Dec 29, 2009)

Cheers for some excellent advice guts I have now acquired some metformin so will give it a whirl, 500mg once daily do?

Glucometer wise might no be so easy, the ones in work are tied to individual people now and are traceable through labs! Screw that!the only one I ever did was a random at 5.9mmol!

My breath stinks and I'm lighting up keto stix now I'm just afraid I'm burning aminos since the weight isn't really falling off.

One more question, peanut butter seems a keto staple, but any natty stuff I see in tescos is still fairly hefty carb wise, 10g/100g, I'm not eating something 10% carb, il be straight out of ketosis, no?

Thanks again, some great suggestions so far!


----------



## Guest (Jan 7, 2011)

hutchy200 said:


> I'm not eating something 10% carb, il be straight out of ketosis, no?


No. Not necessarily.

Re metformin. Dont know much about it, but was under the impression is was similar to insulin and should only be used in combination WITH carbs as going hypo is a possibility??

whats your views on this ausbuilt?


----------



## hutchy200 (Dec 29, 2009)

mikex101 said:


> No. Not necessarily.
> 
> Re metformin. Dont know much about it, but was under the impression is was similar to insulin and should only be used in combination WITH carbs as going hypo is a possibility??
> 
> whats your views on this ausbuilt?


Metformin iirc from my pharmacology days increases peripheral tissues sensitivity to insulin, that's why it's first line in type ii dm. It causes weight loss in diabetics and does cause hypos, il know if I'm in one though, although would be reluctant to take any lucozade to stop it unless things were proper hairy


----------



## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

hutchy200 said:


> Metformin iirc from my pharmacology days increases peripheral tissues sensitivity to insulin, that's why it's first line in type ii dm. It causes weight loss in diabetics and does cause hypos, il know if I'm in one though, although would be reluctant to take any lucozade to stop it unless things were proper hairy


Re-Glucometer- buy your own for home- only £25 from bayer online, or at boots etc.

Ok-metformin will not make you hypo on a KETO diet, as, on a keto diet you should be at or below fasted BG levels.. and once IN ketosis, metformin is of marginal help, but still useful as it can still drive whatever few carbs you ingest (eg in your peanut butter) into what would be VERY receptive muscle cells, rather than being used as fuel (helps keep you in ketosis if you're marginal).

However, Metformin WILL put you into ketosis much faster.. some find this experience a bit nauseating, but your body does adapt, and you don't feel sick after the 2nd week (i use metformin to carb up/drop into ketosis DAILY... yes it can work that well..)

If you're in ketosis, 500-850mg tab a day keeps you there nicely; to drop into keto faster 850-1500mg day... but use your BG meter to check...

If you're feeling "spacey" or light headed, take in a few spoonfulls of OIL (I prefer to use the aerosol whipped cream- 48% fat, 2% carbs just because it tastes/feels nice, but oil or MCTs work well too...)


----------



## Guest (Jan 7, 2011)

Cheers guys. Interesting med by the sounds of things, might look into getting some, Depending on wada status ofcourse.

ill do somemore reading. Reps.


----------



## Big Dawg (Feb 24, 2008)

Some great responses in this thread!


----------



## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

mikex101 said:


> No. Not necessarily.
> 
> Re metformin. Dont know much about it, but was under the impression is was similar to insulin and should only be used in combination WITH carbs as going hypo is a possibility??
> 
> whats your views on this ausbuilt?


Hi Mike,

well I love my peanut butter, def forms a staple snack for me.. a few spoons if I feel low, keep it in the desk drawer at work.. LOL; and with met, you def won't fall out of keto..

Its quite different to insulin actually.. it makes your body more sensitive to insulin; in adult onset diabetes, its used to make the body more insulin sensitive, so that what little insulin is produced by the body works better... if you're a healthy individual, it means your body will secrete less insulin for a given amount of carbs.. (so good on a regular carb diet too, with low GI carbs, you have hardly any insulin spikes...)

If you are on a regular diet, taking metformin, without carbs WILL make you feel hypo/unwell, BUT you won't go into coma, like you would with insulin- the 'slin IS MUCH more effective at driving you BG levels down....

With this in mind... (I DON"T RECOMMEND THIS STEP FOR PEOPLE NOT USED TO INSULIN PROTOCOLS/MANAGEMENT):

As I am in ketosis every morning, but carb up (350-500g carbs!) for 3-4 hours every afternoon for my evening workout... it means I am doing something radical to manage my transition to ketosis..

1. pre carb up- I take 7iu of 'slin (carb up 2-6pm)

2. post carb up (6:30pm) work out-weights

3. post work out, 3iu 'slin, and... NO CARBS...

4. 8pm dinner.. usual keto diet, protein/fats..

5. more keto diet food until bed (midnight).

6. 7am.. fasted cardio (pre breakfast)

6a test BG and urine- BG is under 5.0mmoL on average, sometimes under 4.0mmoL, if cardio intense

7. 8am, keto food breakfast

8. more keto foods up to midday.

9. 2pm.. start next carb up.. and repeat all..

I sometimes still take 500mg metformin at 10pm if my BG reading is not low enough despite the 3iu of 'slin previously.. but I may start to take an extra iu of slin (carbless).

The danger is, apparently that you shouldn't take fast acting slin before going to bed, as it could be active in some people for 7 hours, but having tested my BG every few hours every night, i find the novorapid has no effect (ON ME) after 2hours.. so I should be ok to take 1iu before bed... well thats the theory.. will be testing tonight!

My point with all the above is met and 'slin are very amazing tools, but please measure your BG to understand how they affect YOU! unlike gear, which doesn't show its effect for weeks.. (or days at least)... both met and 'slin can have effects in minutes/hours...

Met is very safe, insulin.. well that takes a bit more responsibility..

If you're wondering why i switched to insulin over met on my CKD... its because i'm also taking 2iu of HGH, and slin makes your body produce more receptors for HGH and IGF-1.. (at 7-10 iu of slin a day, but reduces the receptors at larger amounts of slin).

From a CKD perspective, I could achieve ketosis just as fast with metformin, but i took 2000mg/day. In all cases, I also take 2000mg of l-carnitine per day as it helps your body switch between glucose/ketone pathways (the only reason to take l-carnitine!)

I'm pretty happy with progress, as 12 weeks ago I was 106kg and 22-3% bf, and now (pic in my avatar) I'm 104kg... and at 12%... in 12 weeks.. i've been refining the diet over the past 6weeks as noted in this and other posts.. it's not the gear (as I was taking that before), and I'm sure the 2iu GH and 100mcg of T4 helped the fat loss... but I'm just as sure that the CKD approach (daily carb up before weights workout, and met/insulin use) has helped me preserve ALL my muscle mass (if not grow some more!) as I've lost 8" of my waist so far.. and I'm dieting for another 12 weeks.. hopefully get to 7% and still over 100kg is my goal.. (I'm 6' tall).


----------



## hutchy200 (Dec 29, 2009)

Some truly fantastic posts above, they don't need quoted to know who they are. I'm certainly glad I started this now. I feel obliged to emphasize the above point though, please don't mess about with insulin unless you properly know what you re about, overdoses of Insulin kill, I have seen it first hand, especially going hypo at night when one is sleeping!

So ausbuilt you seem to have a greater knowledge of utilising the hypoglycaemic drugs/ hormones than myself in this setting. Which type of slin are you using? Actrapid?

Thoughts on some premixed/ longer acting insulins? Lantus is what we use traditionally at night etc. To be brutally honest, I don't think it's a road I would personally go down, this is purely for my own academic interest.

As far as I can tell I have two main options with the Metformin, either use it solely after the carb up meal to drive all the carbs where I want them to go, or use it daily, in the morning time, to kick start a good going ketosis.

Thought's from yourself on these two? I had my first 850 of Metformin today and have to be honest felt no ill effects, had a MONSTER (for me) chest and bi session including some of the best pumps I've had in months!

Tomorrow night is carb up night FWIW.


----------



## Guest (Jan 8, 2011)

Hi ausbuilt,can you expect a lot of rebound with finishing the hgh and slin?


----------



## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

hutchy200 said:


> Which type of slin are you using? Actrapid?
> 
> Thoughts on some premixed/ longer acting insulins? Lantus is what we use traditionally at night etc.
> 
> ...


Hi Hutchy,

I don't claim to be an expert by any means, but I have always tried out different ideas I read about (forums are great for this!) and tried to MEASURE results, particularly with metformin/insulin.

I only put in the part where I moved to insulin rather than met more to show the differences, and I try to emphasise that its only for people who are resposible with insulin use (i.e people who have researched it well); while many people say you can die from misusing/misunderstanding insulin, I could say you can die from taking Asprin (take 100 asprin tabs, and you will die from internal bleeding as the asprin would dissolve your stomach's mucous lining and the HCL in your stomach would burn through your internal organs.. nice..). However, a hypoglycaemic coma from insulin mis-application is a very strong reality! the point with insulin use is MEASURE, MEASURE, MEASURE your BG levels... before/during/after meals until you understand how YOUR body deals with the insulin/carbs.

Many times there are general statements made about metformin (i.e causes hypo- not necessarily true BTW); or don't take insulin with out carbs (also not true all the time); the real point is, everybody reacts differently and only BG level MEASUREMENT will tell you whether you are going OK or not..

Sooo... for me:

I've found that I can take 7iu Actrapid (started at 5iu 4 weeks ago) and, I make up a dexgtrose drink and have some glucose lollies as my first carb-up meal ready to go, sitting on my desk as soon as i've pinned the actrapid. As I work in an office, I keep working away... waiting for my body to indicate I need to take in my carbs.. most people on the forums would say Actrapid has a peak in 20-30mins, and a secondary peak 2 hours later... I find, that in my body, i don't feel a need (as in no hypo symptoms) at 40mins, and really its at about 50mins that I start to feel restless and down my dextrose drink and snack on my glucose lollies... I find I have no "secondary" peak, and for all intents and purposes the actrapid is not active after 1 hour for me... and Ive verified with BG readings.. this is why I was comfortable to have 1iu before bed last night.. i did, and I'm alive! 

This brings me to my second point, i've read about carbless post workout insulin on other forums (and learnt LOADS from Datbtrue), where 2iu carbless insulin use post workout was recommended. I did this too, then moved to 3iu.. am now considering 4iu post workout next week, once again CARBLESS. I feel no ill effects with 3iu, and I think i will try 4iu to drop into keto a little quicker, allowing deeper keto through my sleep. Whether i have an extra 1iu before bed (or take a met) will depend on my BG readings for that day... and may vary day to day.. so yes, I still do measure..

As for Lantus, I don't see the point of Lantus as I WANT the spike I get with Actrapid; but if my goals where different I may reconsider.

If you're going metformin only, on a CKD diet, I would use it only to get into Keto. Previously I may have thought it would drive nutrients into the muscle too... but really its insulin that does that, met just makes your body more sensitive to 'slin (use natural slin better); however on a carb up, I don't want LESS insulin secreted, I want MORE- a "spike" (that's why I take the actrapid to kick start my carb up).

So now, after experimenting, and ONLY for a CKD diet, I would say, no met for carb up, but use it to get into keto faster after your workout or before cardio.

Of course if you are following a more normal Low GI medium carb diet, then I would say met everytime you eat carbs to keep insulin spikes as low as possible.. (horses for courses).

You're right, I use Actrapid.


----------



## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

seb1970 said:


> Hi ausbuilt,can you expect a lot of rebound with finishing the hgh and slin?


Hi Seb,

I don't plan on coming of the HGH in the foreseeable future LOL really feel good on it (haven't felt as good in the past decade!). Metabolically, there is no "rebound" from HGH as all that would happen is you go back to your "basal" metabolic state.. which means at 40, I'd find it harder to stay as lean as i was when I was 20.. this is the ageing process.. you produce less GH, and your metabolism slows down... so I wouldn't say a rebound, more just a return to a worsening base...

As for 'slin, no rebound expected there, and i will stop the 'slin when i stop the CKD diet. Its not like taking t3, where there is a bit of a lag, as you body will always produce enough 'slin to keep your blood sugar levels stable.

I only like the 'slin for three reasons:

1. during carb up, allows a greater amount of nutrients to be driven into muscle, sort of SUPER, SUPER compensation to carb depleted cells (again note I carb up for 3-4hours only); the trick here is to take 'slin and wait to take the carbs- otherwise if you eat the carbs first, your body releases slin, and when the peak of the added 'slin hits, you hypo....

2. at 7-10iu/day you grow more HGH/Igf-1 receptors.. (so great if you're taking HGH)

3. when taken WITHOUT carbs, post workout, is the ultimate "trick on your body" makes your body NOT burn remaining glucose for energy (as the active 'slin in the system makes the body only move glucose to muscle cells, not burn them for energy.. especially when carb levels are low..) so you move to ketosis faster, skipping gluconeogenesis as the body wants to retain aminos owing to the slin as well, not burn them for energy..

On a CKD, point 3 is absolute magic, and allows me to carb up before EVERY weights workout (6 evenings per week) and be in ketosis for every morning cardio workout...

I feel being carbed up for every weights workout has allowed me to keep, and in fact BUILD muscle while loosing fat- which normally is VERY difficult! This method has allowed me to maintain a greater amount of muscle during fat loss than ever before (as I stated somewhere, in 12 weeks went from 106kg and 22% to 104kg and 12% on a 6' frame- so I must have added muscle; i used the same test/tren base cycle both before and after the diet.. so it's not the gear making the difference; and i'm sure the T4 and HGH have accelerated the fat loss, I swear its the daily carb up and 'slin use that's built the muscle..


----------



## hutchy200 (Dec 29, 2009)

Thanks for the really interesting response aus wish I had time to do it justice but I'm in work atm.so for someone like me, a v recreational BB, wanting to lean out on ckd with a box of metformin in my drawer when do you recommend usage? Post wakeup AND PW? Leave the carb up meal to sort itself out or give it a boost with met?

That's a very impressive cycle you are running, very rational no wonder you have gotten such great results!

If the endocrinologist in work wasn't such a **** I would love to discuss this with him and see his thoughts!


----------



## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

hutchy200 said:


> for someone like me, a v recreational BB, wanting to lean out on ckd with a box of metformin in my drawer when do you recommend usage? Post wakeup AND PW? Leave the carb up meal to sort itself out or give it a boost with met?


I'm a recreational BB too.. I work in a very specific are of private banking, so this is all vanity for me! LOL but I do have a BSc in chem in my background, and I'm a pretty logical guy.

the best time to take the met would be dependent on when you work out, and when you carb up and when you move into keto...

without know your workout break up, I'd say (based on my recent experiences) don't use the the met when carbing up, because met only weaklys shuttles nutrients to your muscle cells-it potentiates insulin, and lets insulin do that with a lower amount of insulin to be secreted as the met makes your body MORE INSULIN sensitive.

During a carb up, you want the insulin spike to drive as much glucose/aminos into cells as possible, so I would not take met (as I said, opposite is true on a normal carb/low GI diet, where you would take met to keep insulin levels low, to help fat loss) and let your body secrete as much insulin as possible.

WHen you've finished your carb up (and if you've finished your workout, if you workout after carb up) then take the met to help get into keto fast, its very effective for this purpose.


----------



## hutchy200 (Dec 29, 2009)

Cheers again aus, I owe you one. I workout in the evening 99% of the time or the occasional sun pm and sadly only manage 3/4 wo pw due to a brutal work schedule!

Tonight will be carb up then WO so I'm thinking metformin PWO then in the mornings from here in until next weeks carb up on sat! Fair enough?

As a by the by for non ckders reading I have lost 3 lb in 2 weeks ( hardly astonishing!) but my abs are much more visible now, linea alba visible now, so from a 1 pack to a 2 pack. Lifts are exactly the same and i feel great, barring bad breath!

Photos later!


----------



## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

hutchy200 said:


> Tonight will be carb up then WO so I'm thinking metformin PWO then in the mornings from here in until next weeks carb up on sat! Fair enough?
> 
> Photos later!


Based on your carb-up/workout schedule, sounds good- met PWO tonight, then again in the mornings (or evenings as well if you like) until your next carb-up.

I gotta organise some proper progress pics myself..


----------



## hutchy200 (Dec 29, 2009)

Cheers aus really appreciate your advice, that's what I'm at now.

To non keto dieters, this lets you know what it's actually like psychologically, i was dreaming last night and in the dream ate a cookie, casually. I woke up this morning raging with myself that I'm now 'out of keto'! Took me a good 20mins to remember it was a dream lol


----------



## Guest (Jan 10, 2011)

Brilliant!!lol


----------



## The Ultimate Warrior (Dec 20, 2010)

hutchy200 said:


> Cheers aus really appreciate your advice, that's what I'm at now.
> 
> To non keto dieters, this lets you know what it's actually like psychologically, i was dreaming last night and in the dream ate a cookie, casually. I woke up this morning raging with myself that I'm now 'out of keto'! Took me a good 20mins to remember it was a dream lol


I used to have this all the time, once I hit six weeks keto'ing, I would dream about eating a pizza or something. Ide really enjoy it, then wake up all sweaty and and angry, before realising it wasn't real.


----------



## Robbyg (Feb 25, 2008)

A quick keto question on fats is coconut flesh ok to eat as part of your fats or not cheers if anyone can answer this


----------



## Guest (Jan 10, 2011)

Robbyg said:


> A quick keto question on fats is coconut flesh ok to eat as part of your fats or not cheers if anyone can answer this


Yep, its fine. Used coconut milk everyday my last keto.


----------



## Robbyg (Feb 25, 2008)

Thats what i thought Mike and i have used coconut milk on my last keto,but i just read that it had carbs in it 13g per 100g cheers Mike


----------



## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

Robbyg said:


> Thats what i thought Mike and i have used coconut milk on my last keto,but i just read that it had carbs in it 13g per 100g cheers Mike


if you have a high fibre intake, the carbs don't get absorbed so fast, and more "leak" into your bloodstream, so you stay in keto. If you're in deep keto, then up to 15g (which is usual for most nuts) of complex carbs per 100g is usually ok, but, not if you have over 200g... of course, with metformin you are more likely to stay in keto..


----------



## Robbyg (Feb 25, 2008)

Yeah im always having about 450g greens per day


----------



## hutchy200 (Dec 29, 2009)

I'm not eating anywhere near that many greens and currently the only carbs I'm getting are traces plus the 5g/100 in my shakes, but I'm going for deep keto.

I feel like complete crap today though which isn't great going on to 4 night shifts. This is both times after I've carbed up making me think it's the transition making me feel like this rather than the keto itself!


----------



## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

hutchy200 said:


> I'm not eating anywhere near that many greens and currently the only carbs I'm getting are traces plus the 5g/100 in my shakes, but I'm going for deep keto.
> 
> I feel like complete crap today though which isn't great going on to 4 night shifts. This is both times after I've carbed up making me think it's the transition making me feel like this rather than the keto itself!


I use a zero carb whey... so with water, no carbs in shakes (you can use either the true protein zero carb whey from USA, which i mail order in, or QNT brand zero carb whey-from the tesco health food shops!).

I also have 200-300g of greans for the fibre/avoid constipation etc.. but these have 3-5g of carbs/100g..

Yep, its the transition that makes you feel crap... as i carb up/keto DAILY, i notice that after my evening workout, when i take my post workout 'slin shot, i feel nauseous, weak and slow for about 2-3hours, even after eating dinner.. feel ok before bed, and completely fine the next morning before morning cardio...


----------



## hutchy200 (Dec 29, 2009)

Reps to you aus, my friends think I'm crazy but that's a whole other level of dedication!

Thanks for the metformin tip as well been turning keto strips deep purple the past few days, up near the +++ range. Going to test my blood tonight make sure everything else is ok!

Have a great keto recipe buffalo wings I made tonight, really nice IMO, will post up when I get a chance!


----------



## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

hutchy200 said:


> Reps to you aus, my friends think I'm crazy but that's a whole other level of dedication!
> 
> Thanks for the metformin tip as well been turning keto strips deep purple the past few days, up near the +++ range. Going to test my blood tonight make sure everything else is ok!
> 
> Have a great keto recipe buffalo wings I made tonight, really nice IMO, will post up when I get a chance!


deep purple! impressive... but make sure you burn them off with cardio... that may reduce the colour somewhat.. and the more you burn the better (on the plus side they cant redeposit as fat  )

buffalo wings.. mmmmmm put up the recipe! i need a change....

(my girl keeps me on track 26, and hot.. LOL gotta get leaner....)


----------



## hutchy200 (Dec 29, 2009)

That was after an hour of a good leg wo that ended with me running off the gym floor thinking I was going to puke, so no cardio today lol!

Will get the recipe up tomorrow.

Blue cheese dip with them is great too, mix of sour cream 2g carb/100mls plus full fat Mayo plus cheddar, a ketoers dream I hope you'll agree!


----------



## hutchy200 (Dec 29, 2009)

Ok I've decided I'm eating too much protein not enough fat. The only random blood glucose i managed was 5.9 which wasn't good!

Going to cut back in the protein slightly and up fats. Lots of Mayo for me, yum!

On nights all this week though which is properly screwing with everything!


----------



## Guest (Jan 13, 2011)

hutchy200 said:


> Ok I've decided I'm eating too much protein not enough fat. The only random blood glucose i managed was 5.9 which wasn't good!
> 
> Going to cut back in the protein slightly and up fats. *Lots of Mayo for me, yum!*
> 
> ...


----------



## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

hutchy200 said:


> Ok I've decided I'm eating too much protein not enough fat. The only random blood glucose i managed was 5.9 which wasn't good!
> 
> Going to cut back in the protein slightly and up fats. Lots of Mayo for me, yum!
> 
> On nights all this week though which is properly screwing with everything!


oh dear.. above 5.6, def gluconeogenesis.. (assuming carb intake low); don't worry you join an illustrious club of keto dieters who thought they where in keto ;-) (me included!!)

as mikex101 says, check your mayo carefully...

you can of course just add a few more spoons of oil here and there.. anyhow you know the drill 

great to see that you checked your BG- the numbers don't lie!


----------



## Robbyg (Feb 25, 2008)

Is there a machine to check blood glucose ?


----------



## Guest (Jan 13, 2011)

Robbyg said:


> Is there a machine to check blood glucose ?


diabetes blood glucose monitor


----------



## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

Robbyg said:


> Is there a machine to check blood glucose ?


I use this one:

https://www.bayerdiabetes.co.uk/shop/shop-detail.aspx?id=apollo&PID=14&utm_source=googlek&utm_medium=ppc&utm_content=ppc&utm_campaign=usbaug&dsc=USBAWP

£25 delivered from bayer. There are of course others (boots or any chemist has loads, just ask for a glucometer), but the model above GRAPHS my BG levels on a calender and gives me highs, lows and averages for the day/week/period on my laptop, just be pluggin in (and of course charges via the USB too).


----------

