# How many calories to bulk? whist on Keto diet



## zanny (Jan 16, 2012)

My aim is to bulk whist on the *Keto diet*. I have never attempted to bulk before with this diet. How many calories should I be consuming?

Weight - 165 lb

Height - 5ft 9

bf - 13%

My calories mainly come from maining, Chicken, Cheese, Nuts, red meat, Eggs.

A typical day for me on this bulking diet goes like this,

8am - 4 fried eggs with cheese, protein shake,

10am - 10 full fat babybel cheese, 40f of nuts and 50g chicken

13:00 - 200g chicken, handful of nuts

3pm - Protien shake, 5 tea spoons organic peanut butter, 50g full fat cheese,

5pm - 100g chicken, Tuna mayo and 40g of nuts

7pm- train

8pm - 50g dextrose/maltdextrose with 40g protein shake.

9pm - bbq chicken or red meat with 40g nuts.

11pm - bed.

bare in mind, I have a SLOW metabolism.

On off days - No carbs.

My plan is to do this for 5 days with 1.5 day carb up and repeat.

When I eat carbs I get fat. So im attempting this keto/carb timing diet.

basically I would like some advise. I know to bulk 3500-6000 calories is average depending on your bf%, weight, height etc.... but thats with carbs.

With no carbs and fat only, should my bulking calories be the same as a bulking diet with carbs? or should it be higher? and by how much? Bare in mind, I have a slow metabolism and that will affect the amount of calories I should take.


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## yannyboy (Jun 20, 2009)

Can I ask why you want to bulk on keto?


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## zanny (Jan 16, 2012)

Im carb sensitive hence insulin sensitive

Eating monosaccarides and sugars can make me store fat very easily + my slow metobolism = Get fat easily.


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## Need2Grow (Jun 4, 2011)

If you are carb sensitive maybe you should address that issue?

Maybe start on say 50-100g carbs per day and increase by 25-50g each week until you start gaining mass?

Just my thoughts but sure someone more experienced will advise 

P.s. - I believe I am very carb sensitive after shedding over 6.5 stone last year, I got too fat last winter though as I jumped straight from 1500kcal to 3000+kcal  This was a big mistake so once I hit 8-10% bf in the next few weeks, I shall be adding carbs very slowly until I gain weight at a controllable amount


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

zanny said:


> My aim is to bulk whist on the *Keto diet*. I have never attempted to bulk before with this diet. How many calories should I be consuming?
> 
> Weight - 165 lb
> 
> ...


keto is not an efficient diet for bulking. Its a blunt tool for fat loss.

further the "TKD" approach really doesn't work without insulin- you take the carbs post workout along with 3'iu of novorapid every 4 hours (except 3 hours before bed); this ensures that you get back into keto in 12 hours.... of course doing this, you'd only want to work out 3 days/week.



zanny said:


> Im carb sensitive hence insulin sensitive
> 
> Eating monosaccarides and sugars can make me store fat very easily + my slow metobolism = Get fat easily.


actually the opposite; you're INSENSITIVE. Rather than keto to bulk, a regular low carb diet (with carbs around workouts) and metformin would work for you better.

If you really get fat easily you may want check your TSH, T3 and Free T3, and T4 levels.


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## martin brown (Dec 31, 2008)

Good advice above 

No carbs in very ineffective for bulking. The role of insulin plays a rather large part in stopping muscle breakdown. This is at least half the battle of getting bigger


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## zanny (Jan 16, 2012)

martin brown said:


> Good advice above
> 
> No carbs in very ineffective for bulking. The role of insulin plays a rather large part in stopping muscle breakdown. This is at least half the battle of getting bigger


The role of insulin is complex. I'd disagree about half the battle. The reason for my dextrose/maltdextrose carb drink after my work out is for glocose/glycogen refill + amino acid uptake in cells. I do agree that insulin does have anabolic affects.

Nevertheless, has anybody attempted keto bulking? Back to my origional question "With no carbs and fat only, should my bulking calories be the same as a bulking diet with carbs? or should it be higher? and by how much? Bare in mind, I have a slow metabolism and that will affect the amount of calories I should take"


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## xpower (Jul 28, 2009)

How about CKD instead of straight Keto?

Best of both so to speak


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## yannyboy (Jun 20, 2009)

Dave Palumbo has written articles on bulking with a TKD

Think he also advocates insulin usage


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## J87 (Nov 27, 2010)

Protein can spike insulin without affecting blood sugar levels:

http://blog.bodybuilding.com/Quantum_/2012/02/04/protein_spikes_insulin/

http://weightology.net/weightologyweekly/?page_id=319

http://www.mendosa.com/insulin_index.htm


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## zanny (Jan 16, 2012)

J87 said:



> Protein can spike insulin without affecting blood sugar levels:
> 
> http://blog.bodybuilding.com/Quantum_/2012/02/04/protein_spikes_insulin/
> 
> ...


I agree. However, it is not a "spike". Slow digesting matter causes isulin release but slowly in a pulsating matter.

Akins chocolate bars have about 17g carbs in it. But the packaging says "2g net carbs" for example. The remaning 15g is not counted because of the way it affects insulin (slowly).


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## martin brown (Dec 31, 2008)

zanny said:


> The role of insulin is complex. I'd disagree about half the battle. The reason for my dextrose/maltdextrose carb drink after my work out is for glocose/glycogen refill + amino acid uptake in cells. I do agree that insulin does have anabolic affects.
> 
> Nevertheless, has anybody attempted keto bulking? Back to my origional question "With no carbs and fat only, should my bulking calories be the same as a bulking diet with carbs? or should it be higher? and by how much? Bare in mind, I have a slow metabolism and that will affect the amount of calories I should take"


Sorry maybe I put my point accross wrong - I meant half the battle of gaining muscle is stopping muscle breakdown - insulin plays a role in reducing muscle breakdown during exercise as resistance training itself is catabolic. As insulin levels rise cortisol drops. Of course it also plays a very strong role in the other half of the battle - protein synthesis.



J87 said:


> Protein can spike insulin without affecting blood sugar levels:
> 
> http://blog.bodybuilding.com/Quantum_/2012/02/04/protein_spikes_insulin/
> 
> ...


Protein alone does cause insulin spikes - but there is a synergistic effect of having carbs in there too for muscle synthesis.

In answer to the original question though - I have never tried and would not advise it - but calories would need to cover recovery and growth so above normal.


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## Guest (Jun 25, 2012)

Not gonna try and convince the OP since he's ignoring members far more knowledgeable than I.

Keto bulking really isn't optimal, but knock yourself out.

We look forward to your "Is my gear bunk" and/or "Need cutting advice" threads in 3 months.


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## J87 (Nov 27, 2010)

martin brown said:


> Sorry maybe I put my point accross wrong - I meant half the battle of gaining muscle is stopping muscle breakdown - insulin plays a role in reducing muscle breakdown during exercise as resistance training itself is catabolic. As insulin levels rise cortisol drops. Of course it also plays a very strong role in the other half of the battle - protein synthesis.
> 
> Protein alone does cause insulin spikes - but there is a synergistic effect of having carbs in there too for muscle synthesis.
> 
> In answer to the original question though - I have never tried and would not advise it - but calories would need to cover recovery and growth so above normal.


Can you explain mate?


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## zanny (Jan 16, 2012)

Im not ignoring memebers. Im having issues with the site. Since I have not posted much. Its asking for authentication from moderators first :S


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## zanny (Jan 16, 2012)

ausbuilt said:


> keto is not an efficient diet for bulking. Its a blunt tool for fat loss.
> 
> further the "TKD" approach really doesn't work without insulin- you take the carbs post workout along with 3'iu of novorapid every 4 hours (except 3 hours before bed); this ensures that you get back into keto in 12 hours.... of course doing this, you'd only want to work out 3 days/week.
> 
> ...


How would that make me insulin resistant? (insensitive). That is what you mean right?


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## zanny (Jan 16, 2012)

xpower said:


> How about CKD instead of straight Keto?
> 
> Best of both so to speak


I'm basically doing the carb timing diet but with excess calories for bulking minus the carb meal after training (not the carb drink). PSCarb has a post on it.


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

zanny said:


> How would that make me insulin resistant? (insensitive). That is what you mean right?


When you get fat eating carbs, its becuase your cells are insulin resisntant- i.e your body overproduces the insulin to get an effect, and the large releases of insulin make you fatter.

If you where insulin sensitive, it would mean that a very small release of insulin would do the job, and you wouldnt get as fat.

if this is your problem, a low carb diet helps make you insulin sensitive; so does metformin.


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## zanny (Jan 16, 2012)

ausbuilt said:


> When you get fat eating carbs, its becuase your cells are insulin resisntant- i.e your body overproduces the insulin to get an effect, and the large releases of insulin make you fatter.
> 
> If you where insulin sensitive, it would mean that a very small release of insulin would do the job, and you wouldnt get as fat.
> 
> if this is your problem, a low carb diet helps make you insulin sensitive; so does metformin.


I think we are getting the nature of my post wrong here. I am not diabetic talking about metformin and supressing my glucose production is not needed.

Your info is correct. However, my cells are not insulin resistant. I dont know if I over exaggerated the fact that I get "fat easily" its not that bad of a issue lol so to answer your question, that is not my problem 

I know that bulking on keto/carb timed diet is possible, even though the gains maybe slower. I jus wana know if any1 has tried it and what the results were and how many calories they were consuming.


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

zanny said:


> I think we are getting the nature of my post wrong here. I am not diabetic talking about metformin and supressing my glucose production is not needed.
> 
> Your info is correct. However, my cells are not insulin resistant. I dont know if I over exaggerated the fact that I get "fat easily" its not that bad of a issue lol so to answer your question, that is not my problem
> 
> I know that bulking on keto/carb timed diet is possible, even though the gains maybe slower. I jus wana know if any1 has tried it and what the results were and how many calories they were consuming.


well the point is, BBs use metformin to keep lean.... as it reduces insulin secretion in response to carbs in the diet..


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## Bull Terrier (May 14, 2012)

zanny said:


> I think we are getting the nature of my post wrong here. I am not diabetic talking about metformin and supressing my glucose production is not needed.
> 
> Your info is correct. However, my cells are not insulin resistant. I dont know if I over exaggerated the fact that I get "fat easily" its not that bad of a issue lol so to answer your question, that is not my problem
> 
> I know that bulking on keto/carb timed diet is possible, even though the gains maybe slower. I jus wana know if any1 has tried it and what the results were and how many calories they were consuming.


I've been following a variety of CKD (Cyclical Ketogenic Diet) since December, but for fat loss. My fat loss has been excellent, whilst my strength on all lifts has gone up somewhat (nothing too dramatic to be honest, but then again I'm cutting not bulking). However there is a variant of the diet which I follow which is still a CKD but it is geared for building mass.

I think that you ought to buy Ultimate Diet 2.0 by Lyle McDonald. Here's a link:

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/ultimate-diet-20

The book is almost exclusively about fat loss, but towards the end of the book he explains how you can use the same principles of nutrient partitioning to gain mass whilst limiting (or even preventing) fat gain. He goes into the finest details of exactly how to set up your diet and his stuff is always extremely well referenced so you know that he isn't just making it up as he goes along.


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## Andy Dee (Jun 1, 2008)

it must be amazing getting stronger no idea how the fck that happens, the last time I tried one of these things i lost about 15kg on every lift.


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## Bull Terrier (May 14, 2012)

Here's a nice article on insulin sensitivity and fat loss:

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/insulin-sensitivity-and-fat-loss.html


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