# are squats that important



## aledj

hi, do u guys think squats are that important? and why? thanks


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## RyanClarke

No exercise is vital enough to worry about not doing, or stop training all together cause you dont wanna squat. If you dont wanna squat, don't.


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## Lois_Lane

Nope i rarely do them at all.

Try pistol squats and split squats.....much better.


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## MarkFranco

Yes because Mark Ripptoe and Jim Wendler say so.

But heres some crap i pulled off the net for you

Reason #1: Squats are a full-body exercise.

Many guys skip out on squats because they mistakenly believe that squats are just an exercise for your legs. But nothing could be further from the truth.

Your body uses over 200 different muscles when performing squats. And getting stronger on squats often has the somewhat "magical" effect of making you stronger on other exercises.

For example, it's not uncommon for guys to add 50lbs to their best squat and suddenly discover that their bench press went up 15lbs as well.

Reason #2: Squats boost favorable hormones

Squats are the one of the best exercises (deadlifts being another good choice) for stimulating a favorable hormonal response. Meaning that heavy squats trigger the body to release testosterone and growth hormone, two crucial chemicals for building muscle.

And although I can't track down the exact source, I'm told there are university studies that show an increase in UPPER body mass gains when squats are included in a training program. This is most likely because squats boost muscle-building hormones which help to build your entire body.

Reason #3: Squats built strength in your hips and core.

When you think about building muscle and strength, you probably think about biceps and pecs. And developing those muscles are great for looking good on the beach.

But strength and power originates in the hips and core. So if you want to increase your overall strength and power, work hard on an exercise that strengthens your hips and core. By this point, I'm sure you can guess the best exercise for developing strength and power in the hips and core. You guessed it: The squat.

To put it another way, the guy who can squat 405 pounds for reps has a huge advantage on the football field, in the octogon/wrestling mat or even in a common street fight.

If you're looking for some anecdotal evidence, consider Adrian Peterson - star running back of the Minnesota Vikings. Why is he so good? Well, part of it's his speed, part of it's genetics and instincts.

But he squats over 530lbs at a bodyweight of 215.

You might never run like Adrian Peterson but I guarantee that once you can squat 2.5 times your bodyweight like Adrian can, you'll be a formidable force in any sport.

Reason #4: Squats build overall muscle mass.

If you want to gain MASS, then you've got to squat. As we discussed already, squats trigger the results of favorable growth hormones which contribute to gains in muscle size.

But squats are also great for stimulating the appetite.

Many guys who can't gain weight complain that they're just never hungry. But heavy squatting sessions will fix that in a heartbeat. Eight hours after a brutal squatting session I sometimes find myself unable to get full no matter how much I eat.

It's like my body is sending a never-ending signal to shovel down the food and provide the energy to repair the damage from the heavy squats.

Reason #5: Squats build mental toughness.

This part might get a little weird, but I firmly believe that America (or any country for that matter) would be a better place if every male could squat at LEAST 225lbs. 315lbs would be better.

Because squatting builds mental toughness. Ask anyone who's ever done a true session of the infamous 20-rep breathing squats. That's when you take your 10 rep squat max and grind out 20 reps by taking as many breathes as you need between reps.

It sounds impossible&#8230; but you can do it. It's quite possibly the hardest thing I've ever done in my life. At the age of 19 I squatted 135lbs for 20 reps. I added 10lbs to the bar every week and before long I was squatting 225lbs for 20 reps. The numbers aren't impressive by any stretch of the imagination. But the experience changed me forever.

I've done 20 rep squats a few times since then. And I think it actually gets more brutal every time.

But I can honestly say I'm a lot tougher today for having this experience in my back pocket. To this day, whenever things get rough I can't help but think "Well, this is a crappy situation but I've done 20 rep squats and by comparison, this isn't so bad."

So there you have it.

Do your squats. Because yes, they ARE that important.


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## 71081

see, I disagree with con and ryan.

Squats should be in. Best leg exercise bar none. Also helps with the core. Very anabolic, helps with the rest of you...just my opinion of course.


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## Syko

71081 said:


> see, I disagree with the above.
> 
> Squats should be in. Best leg exercise bar none. Also helps with the core. Very anabolic, helps with the rest of you...just my opinion of course.


I agree with this :thumbup1:

Squats are the best exersize for legs IMO


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## mal

not everyones cup of tea.


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## RyanClarke

Does nothing for my quads at all, just gives me a huge ****.


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## BigDom86

i get more stimulation from leg press or iso squats (plate loaded)


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## H22civic

Although i find them the best exercise for all round growth of my legs, many guys dont and get better results from hack squats, leg presses and other exercises.

Best thing to do mate is experiment over time and find out what works best for you.


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## keir27

MarkFranco said:


> Yes because Mark Ripptoe and Jim Wendler say so.
> 
> But heres some crap i pulled off the net for you
> 
> Reason #1: Squats are a full-body exercise.
> 
> Many guys skip out on squats because they mistakenly believe that squats are just an exercise for your legs. But nothing could be further from the truth.
> 
> Your body uses over 200 different muscles when performing squats. And getting stronger on squats often has the somewhat "magical" effect of making you stronger on other exercises.
> 
> nice post man makes a lot of sense but correct me if im wrong, for example someone that plays rugby on the wing squats wouldnt benefit them as much as say a person playing prop?
> 
> For example, it's not uncommon for guys to add 50lbs to their best squat and suddenly discover that their bench press went up 15lbs as well.
> 
> Reason #2: Squats boost favorable hormones
> 
> Squats are the one of the best exercises (deadlifts being another good choice) for stimulating a favorable hormonal response. Meaning that heavy squats trigger the body to release testosterone and growth hormone, two crucial chemicals for building muscle.
> 
> And although I can't track down the exact source, I'm told there are university studies that show an increase in UPPER body mass gains when squats are included in a training program. This is most likely because squats boost muscle-building hormones which help to build your entire body.
> 
> Reason #3: Squats built strength in your hips and core.
> 
> When you think about building muscle and strength, you probably think about biceps and pecs. And developing those muscles are great for looking good on the beach.
> 
> But strength and power originates in the hips and core. So if you want to increase your overall strength and power, work hard on an exercise that strengthens your hips and core. By this point, I'm sure you can guess the best exercise for developing strength and power in the hips and core. You guessed it: The squat.
> 
> To put it another way, the guy who can squat 405 pounds for reps has a huge advantage on the football field, in the octogon/wrestling mat or even in a common street fight.
> 
> If you're looking for some anecdotal evidence, consider Adrian Peterson - star running back of the Minnesota Vikings. Why is he so good? Well, part of it's his speed, part of it's genetics and instincts.
> 
> But he squats over 530lbs at a bodyweight of 215.
> 
> You might never run like Adrian Peterson but I guarantee that once you can squat 2.5 times your bodyweight like Adrian can, you'll be a formidable force in any sport.
> 
> Reason #4: Squats build overall muscle mass.
> 
> If you want to gain MASS, then you've got to squat. As we discussed already, squats trigger the results of favorable growth hormones which contribute to gains in muscle size.
> 
> But squats are also great for stimulating the appetite.
> 
> Many guys who can't gain weight complain that they're just never hungry. But heavy squatting sessions will fix that in a heartbeat. Eight hours after a brutal squatting session I sometimes find myself unable to get full no matter how much I eat.
> 
> It's like my body is sending a never-ending signal to shovel down the food and provide the energy to repair the damage from the heavy squats.
> 
> Reason #5: Squats build mental toughness.
> 
> This part might get a little weird, but I firmly believe that America (or any country for that matter) would be a better place if every male could squat at LEAST 225lbs. 315lbs would be better.
> 
> Because squatting builds mental toughness. Ask anyone who's ever done a true session of the infamous 20-rep breathing squats. That's when you take your 10 rep squat max and grind out 20 reps by taking as many breathes as you need between reps.
> 
> It sounds impossible&#8230; but you can do it. It's quite possibly the hardest thing I've ever done in my life. At the age of 19 I squatted 135lbs for 20 reps. I added 10lbs to the bar every week and before long I was squatting 225lbs for 20 reps. The numbers aren't impressive by any stretch of the imagination. But the experience changed me forever.
> 
> I've done 20 rep squats a few times since then. And I think it actually gets more brutal every time.
> 
> But I can honestly say I'm a lot tougher today for having this experience in my back pocket. To this day, whenever things get rough I can't help but think "Well, this is a crappy situation but I've done 20 rep squats and by comparison, this isn't so bad."
> 
> So there you have it.
> 
> Do your squats. Because yes, they ARE that important.


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## MarkFranco

People this is in the strength and power section

Not bodybuilding section, so im guessing it doesnt matter what isolates your muscles more for a better "pump"

Squats are essential for been Strong and powerful in mine and in most top strength coaches through out the worlds opinion


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## DNL

MarkFranco said:


> People this is in the strength and power section
> 
> Not bodybuilding section, so im guessing it doesnt matter what isolates your muscles more for a better "pump"
> 
> Squats are essential for been Strong and powerful


Con is stronger than you. Read his post.


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## Lois_Lane

MarkFranco said:


> Squats are essential for been Strong and powerful


 I am both but i don't do squats more often than once every few months.

When i do them my squats are too shabby either

Same goes for deadlifts, i havent done any in over 3 months but i am sure i could pull 300kg right now cold off the couch if need be.

^Beat me to it mate lol


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## keir27

nice post markfranco makes a lot of sense, but correct me if im wrong for example squats wouldnt benefit a rugby player on the wing compared too a prop?


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## MarkFranco

Lois_Lane said:


> I am both but i don't do squats more often than once every few months.
> 
> When i do them my squats are too shabby either


Yes, I completey choose to ignore that you been a big powerful ****er said he doesnt like/do squats

Theres also an exception to the rule


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## jw007

DNL said:


> Con is stronger than you. Read his post.


Cons legs are lagging in comaprison to upper half

You do the maths:whistling:


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## Lois_Lane

MarkFranco said:


> Yes, I completey choose to ignore that you been a big powerful ****er said he doesnt like/do squats
> 
> Theres also an exception to the rule


 Overall i will agree squats are important especially if you only have run of the mill leg training equipment. Once you get to a real gym which has proper equipment for legs then i think you can do without.

I don't do regular leg press either because pressing weights above your chest with your legs increases BP too much and is unhealthy. I do horizontal leg press.

^^^Lagging lol maybe but they only improved once i stopped squatting heavy you do that equation Einstein. LMAO


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## MarkFranco

keir27 said:


> nice post markfranco makes a lot of sense, but correct me if im wrong for example squats wouldnt benefit a rugby player on the wing compared too a prop?


No idea what a wing or prop is unless where on about chicken and testosterone prop

Squats will help a rugby player i imagine, front squats might be better though where getting into sport specific training now though and I have no idea when it comes to rugby


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## DNL

jw007 said:


> Cons legs are lagging in comaprison to upper half
> 
> You do the maths:whistling:


shhh :lol:


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## jw007

Lois_Lane said:


> Overall i will agree squats are important especially if you only have run of the mill leg training equipment. Once you get to a real gym which has proper equipment for legs then i think you can do without.
> 
> I don't do regular leg press either because pressing weights above your chest with your legs increases BP too much and is unhealthy. I do horizontal leg press.
> 
> ^^^*Lagging* lol maybe but they only improved once i stopped squatting heavy you do that equation Einstein. LMAO


end Off


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## MarkFranco

Im quite astounded to the amount of people who dont think squats are that important for building strength and power

So what if con is stronger than me, i got my opinions from people stronger than con  haha

PS I am a massive squat fan boy


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## Lois_Lane

jw007 said:


> end Off


 Well why don't you mega squatter JW post up a leg picture and i will do the same and we will let DNL decide which look better

^^^^Stronger than Con?! That's on par of calling my mum a whore....negs preparing to be deployed!


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## DNL

MarkFranco said:


> Im quite astounded to the amount of people who dont think squats are that important for building strength and power
> 
> So what if con is stronger than me, i got my opinions from people stronger than con  haha
> 
> PS I am a massive squat fan boy


what can you squat?


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## Lois_Lane

Deadlifts is the big daddy of lifts.

You can't cheat it.

It uses more muscles such as gripping muscles.

It builds EVERY THING.

Squats are good for looking strong but when you want to step up to the big boys its time to deadlift.


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## mal

unlike most exercises squatting involves standing up,as apposed

to lying down or sitting,thus unpopular.


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## Mars

I never used to squat, glad i started though, my whole physique improved, go figure.


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## jw007

Lois_Lane said:


> Well why don't you mega squatter JW post up a leg picture and i will do the same and we will let DNL decide which look better
> 
> ^^^^Stronger than Con?! That's on par of calling my mum a whore....negs preparing to be deployed!


Ok

How recent???

Are we taking into consideration that im not a faggoty bodybuilder, living like a monk and swallowing down every bodybuilding supp known to man

With a sh1t diet??

So sure, Im up for it

best have something special then


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## MarkFranco

DNL said:


> what can you squat?


205kg for 3


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## 1237matt

YES! Anyone that says otherwise is not reaching their full potential.

Squats are the most important core lift when developing strength.

It does depend what your training for- if you just want to look good then you prob can do without them- you can swap for leg press

But if you train for performance/strength they are THE most crucial excersise.


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## jw007

Lois_Lane said:


> Deadlifts is the big daddy of lifts.
> 
> You can't cheat it.
> 
> It uses more muscles such as gripping muscles.
> 
> It builds EVERY THING.
> 
> Squats are good for looking strong but when you want to step up to the big boys its time to deadlift.


Whats wrong with doing both???

Bet you dont bench big either?? That why chest is lagging also:lol:


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## Lois_Lane

jw007 said:


> Ok
> 
> How recent???
> 
> Are we taking into consideration that im not a faggoty bodybuilder, living like a monk and swallowing down every bodybuilding supp known to man
> 
> With a sh1t diet??
> 
> So sure, Im up for it
> 
> best have something special then


 Doesn't have to be recent post up your best picture and i will do the same. If i remember rightly your legs weren't that great and i don't think my non squatter peg legs will do that badly compared to them. :whistling:

As far as bb supplements i guess every oral every made doesn't count in your books? 

Chest lagging? Picture to follow!


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## MarkFranco

Lois_Lane said:


> Deadlifts is the big daddy of lifts.
> 
> You can't cheat it.
> 
> It uses more muscles such as gripping muscles.
> 
> It builds EVERY THING.
> 
> Squats are good for looking strong but when you want to step up to the big boys its time to deadlift.


Deadlifts are defo another good lift, like blondes and brunettes, you may have a preference but its silly not to do both


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## MillionG

The question you need to ask yourself OP is:

"Why not squat?"

if the answer is something like:

"I'm an experienced lifter, have tried squatting for a decent stretch of time and found that it doesn't personally do much for me"

then fair enough.

If the answer is:

"They're hard and I'm wet"

Then squat.

Right now.

In your living room.

Do it!!

P*ssy.


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## Lois_Lane

Side chest










Built on VERY light weights for chest in fact i thank 99% of its development on deadlifts


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## 1237matt

MarkFranco said:


> Deadlifts are defo another good lift, like blondes and brunettes, you may have a preference but its silly not to do both


HAHAHA

Yes mate that is bang on!


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## jw007

Lois_Lane said:


> Side chest
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Built on VERY light weights for chest in fact i thank 99% of its development on deadlifts


Need front view, Chest is def weak there for sure, plus looks like pretty bad gyno:confused1:


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## Lois_Lane

jw007 said:


> Need front view, Chest is def weak there for sure, plus looks like pretty bad gyno:confused1:


 :lolk i will stop here before i explode and smash my laptop hulk style....you win JW


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## jw007

Lois_Lane said:


> :lolk i will stop here before i explode and smash my laptop hulk style....you win JW


LOL

little fishies were biting today :lol: :lol:


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## DNL

Still waiting with my pants down for quad shots


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## b4rmy

Con, you thank deadlifts for your developed chest!???

Fvckkkk! Deadlifts all the wayyyyy lads!...lets go.


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## Lois_Lane

b4rmy said:


> Con, you thank deadlifts for your developed chest!???
> 
> Fvckkkk! Deadlifts all the wayyyyy lads!...lets go.


 Nope as JW pointed out my chest is weak and what looks like muscle is actually gyno But yes whatever is there is 100% down to deadlifts in fact my entire body is thanks to deadlifts NOTHING else.


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## big silver back

I love squatting but the older im getting im starting to wonder are they worth it, far to many injurys :sad:


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## Lois_Lane

big silver back said:


> I love squatting but the older im getting im starting to wonder are they worth it, far to many injurys :sad:


 Are your legs massive like JW would say they have to be or do you find they lag behind that huge upper body of yours?


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## DNL

big silver back said:


> I love squatting but the older im getting im starting to wonder are they worth it, far to many injurys :sad:


Yeah but you are tiny and therefore your opinion doesn't count :laugh: :whistling:

obviously i am joking for the slower members.


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## kevo

Ahh dammit, I cant see these leg pics in work :bounce:


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## big silver back

Lois_Lane said:


> Are your legs massive like JW would say they have to be or do you find they lag behind that huge upper body of yours?


Most definatly lagging, and i've done thousands of squats over the years :confused1: thanks for the huge upper body comment btw


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## big silver back

DNL said:


> Yeah but you are tiny and therefore your opinion doesn't count :laugh: :whistling:
> 
> :sad: :lol:
> 
> obviously i am joking for the slower members.


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## Lois_Lane

big silver back said:


> Most definatly lagging, and i've done thousands of squats over the years :confused1: thanks for the huge upper body comment btw


 Lol only pointing out the painfully obvious:cursing: :thumbup1:

But yes your point illustrates my point. Squats may work great for some but it wont for others. All i ever get is hip problems when i squat.... But the same goes for deadlift, i mean if you get hurt doing pulls but squats feel great then focus on squats.


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## Smitch

So what would you say was a better exercise if you had to choose one or the other, squats or deads?


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## Milky

A friend of mine and former competitor / winner has told me he never did squats.

I personally cant do them for some reason but my legs are crap, never grown in 12 yrs.


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## Smitch

I started doing squats a couple of months back.

I can bench more than i can squat!


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## MarkFranco

Smitch said:


> I started doing squats a couple of months back.
> 
> I can bench more than i can squat!


Thats not unusual for some one who just started squatting

Ive gone from squatting 80kg to 205kg in a matter of months


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## phys sam

MarkFranco said:


> Thats not unusual for some one who just started squatting
> 
> Ive gone from squatting 80kg to 205kg in a matter of months


I would love to see a video of that - thats immense progress mate.


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## Lois_Lane

phys sam said:


> I would love to see a video of that - thats immense progress mate.


 Oh so you smell that also? This thread suddenly stinks of partial squats:confused1:


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## MarkFranco

phys sam said:


> I would love to see a video of that - thats immense progress mate.


http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=511493853&v=app_2392950137#!/video/video.php?v=470318428853

Not sure if thatll work, if it does, sorry for all the screaming and shouting


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## Lois_Lane

MarkFranco said:


> http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=511493853&v=app_2392950137#!/video/video.php?v=470318428853
> 
> Not sure if thatll work, if it does, sorry for all the screaming and shouting


 I stand corrected even though i could not see your depth the bar did travel a long way down so you at least hit parallel.

Well done i can see why you like squats.


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## MarkFranco

Lois_Lane said:


> I stand corrected even though i could not see your depth the bar did travel a long way down so you at least hit parallel.
> 
> Well done i can see why you like squats.


Cheers, depth is ok, not ATG but not partial reps :laugh:


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## BB_999

I hate doing them but I like the results.

I've recently started doing them with more weight but not going as low (cheating I guess) and surprisingly the results have improved.


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## MarkFranco

ruaidhri said:


> well done. i take it back. just can't understand how someone could add 120kg to a lift in a matter of months, how many months we talking? and why do you not hold the bar?


Dbol, milk, stronglifts

about 3 months maybe, and i was holding the bar haha, thats the guy spotting me

Guy on my left spotting me actually said "What the ****s going on here, I swear you was only doing 2 plates a side few weeks back"


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## Milky

MarkFranco said:


> http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=511493853&v=app_2392950137#!/video/video.php?v=470318428853
> 
> Not sure if thatll work, if it does, sorry for all the screaming and shouting


Cant log onto the vid mate but thats a very gay pose with your handbag there..

:lol: :lol: :lol:


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## phys sam

awesome progress fella. Truly awesome! - reps


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## cecil_sensation

Lois_Lane said:


> I am both but i don't do squats more often than once every few months.
> 
> When i do them my squats are too shabby either
> 
> Same goes for deadlifts, i havent done any in over 3 months but i am sure i could pull 300kg right now cold off the couch if need be.
> 
> ^Beat me to it mate lol


how true :thumb:


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## MarkFranco

phys sam said:


> awesome progress fella. Truly awesome! - reps


It shot up very quick, shame my other lifts didnt follow suit, there very poor, Im slightly worried I may be increasing weight to fast and risking injury

No longer squatting 3x a week though, it just became to much doing 5x5 then trying to do deadlifts/bench/anthing after, was quite taxing on lower back, but that seems to be coping better now

I was very conservative with my starting weight on squats though, so I found at times I was able to add 10kg


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## 54und3r5

How much bodyyweight did you put on in the 3 months it took you to get that squat then marcfranco


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## MarkFranco

54und3r5 said:


> How much bodyyweight did you put on in the 3 months it took you to get that squat then marcfranco


Ill let you know, I go to the docotor for regular checkups and last time he weighed me I was 96kg and thats was approx 4/5months ago, that squat was a week ago so, ill try get weighed soon as.


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## Greyphantom

I used to get sore back from squats... thought didnt need to do them as many others do... but after getting my form improved and really concentrating on squatting well I have to say would do without them...


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## 8103

If you want to get the most out of squatting read starting strength and do it properly from the start.

IMO you will see better results squatting with proper form than doing partials.


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## MarkFranco

Ive allways gone to or below parrellel, I wouldnt be able to count it otherwise.

I notice as the weight get heavier the stance gets wider and the bar has to travel less


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## Guest

Con. I know you dont do alot of squatting now, But what about when you were pl'ing regularly?

Were you deadlift only??

My 2 cents, If you can squat. Squat.


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## YetiMan1436114545

I hate squats with a passion. My form is **** even when using no weight. I always end up doing my back in or doing a partial.


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## 8103

YetiMan said:


> I hate squats with a passion. My form is **** even when using no weight. I always end up doing my back in or doing a partial.


why not learn the correct form then?


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## YetiMan1436114545

crouchmagic said:


> why not learn the correct form then?


Don't think I've tried mate? I've been trying for years on and off. I've had some very experienced people help me, I've watched countless videos I still just cant do it. Regardless of weight on the bar.


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## phys sam

presumably its a biomechanical problem as opposed to a mental one 

ie you have either soft tissue or joint restrictions (or probably a bit of both) which don't allow you to get into that position?

Has anyone looked for where you are tight and why it might be stopping you? It could be that with some focused stretching and soft tissue work you might get there.

(Take a look at AK's journal for a man who stretches a lot!!)


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## YetiMan1436114545

phys sam said:


> presumably its a biomechanical problem as opposed to a mental one
> 
> ie you have either soft tissue or joint restrictions (or probably a bit of both) which don't allow you to get into that position?
> 
> Has anyone looked for where you are tight and why it might be stopping you? It could be that with some focused stretching and soft tissue work you might get there.
> 
> (Take a look at AK's journal for a man who stretches a lot!!)


Hi mate,

it's funny you should say that - I had a back massage last night and she said I need more work doing especially on my lower/mid back muscles as they were - can't remember the name she said.

I seem to have an issue going to parallel or below. My form does improve somewhat when I do front squats however I can't really hold a bar with 180k + on my front.

I'll take a look at the journal, I've tried a fair few stretches and non have worked.


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## defdaz

Why is it that when it comes to squats and deadlifts (especially deadlifts) we all turn into powerlifters and start going for 1 rep maxes?! :confused1: :crying:

Leave your ego at the door people! :lol:


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## 1237matt

people say 'I dont squat because I only get partial reps'. Thats probably because you are tight in areas e.g calves or have poor hip mobility or probably both along with many other possiblities.

it makes me laugh when people say the partial reps comment - Did you havethe perfect bench as soon as you started benching??? You have to work on the squat through technique and stretching but most importantly foam rolling and mobility excersises. When performed properly - personally i think it is the most demanding lift.

If your training is performance/strength based then any one who declines to squat is not reaching their full potential. Its that simple.

If you want to look good- listen to bodybuilders. if you want to get strong in accordance to your bodyweight listen to powerlifters. Both are are specialsts in different areas. A powerlifter would laugh if you claimed you train for strength but don't squat.

The Squat and Deadlift have so much carryover.

The bottom line is most people dont squat because it is hard and you have to take a ego hit by probably starting lower than you can bench.


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## phys sam

HAve you tried these? He goes on a bit and clearly lives in a fishbowl but you get the jist.

qaQPfi8f27E[/MEDIA]]


----------



## rs007

Although as humans, we by and large all follow the same template, we all have subtle differences in limb length/ratio, tendon attachment points, spine length etc etc

Just means quite simply, some folks can't do it with a satisfactory level of safety, just the way it is.

So for some, great exercise - for others, potential training killer.

So no, it isn't universally the "best" exercise, and it isn't universally important.

Just so happens I love them, seem reasonably suited to it, and love trying to get stronger on it.

Weeman on the other hand screws his back up with standard squats - it isn't just a matter of "learning form" or any of that nonsense - he just isn't built for it. Front squats present far less of a problem for him - where as for me, front squats just seem to put too much load on my knees.

Bottom line, don't stupidly go by lists or claims of "best" or "must do" exercises - try em', see what they do, see if they work for you. If they don't, then don't keep banging your head against a brick wall - do something else.


----------



## phys sam

Also take a look at teh adductor magnus stretches

http://www.exrx.net/Lists/ExList/ThighWt.html#anchor44695


----------



## phys sam

rs007 said:


> Although as humans, we by and large all follow the same template, we all have subtle differences in limb length/ratio, tendon attachment points, spine length etc etc
> 
> Just means quite simply, some folks can't do it with a satisfactory level of safety, just the way it is.
> 
> So for some, great exercise - for others, potential training killer.
> 
> So no, it isn't universally the "best" exercise, and it isn't universally important.
> 
> Just so happens I love them, seem reasonably suited to it, and love trying to get stronger on it.
> 
> Weeman on the other hand screws his back up with standard squats - it isn't just a matter of "learning form" or any of that nonsense - he just isn't built for it. Front squats present far less of a problem for him - where as for me, front squats just seem to put too much load on my knees.
> 
> Bottom line, don't stupidly go by lists or claims of "best" or "must do" exercises - try em', see what they do, see if they work for you. If they don't, then don't keep banging your head against a brick wall - do something else.


Some people fall in the middle as well. They can't do it satisfactorily and could be at risk of injury.

With a little bit of work they can.

Sometimes stuff like this highlights obvious problems that can be improved


----------



## Guest

defdaz said:


> Why is it that when it comes to squats and deadlifts (especially deadlifts) we all turn into powerlifters and start going for 1 rep maxes?! :confused1: :crying:
> 
> Leave your ego at the door people! :lol:


Because DL's are hard, especially when doing reps. Its not ego, its lazy!


----------



## 1237matt

rs007 said:


> Although as humans, we by and large all follow the same template, we all have subtle differences in limb length/ratio, tendon attachment points, spine length etc etc
> 
> Just means quite simply, some folks can't do it with a satisfactory level of safety, just the way it is.
> 
> So for some, great exercise - for others, potential training killer.
> 
> So no, it isn't universally the "best" exercise, and it isn't universally important.
> 
> Just so happens I love them, seem reasonably suited to it, and love trying to get stronger on it.
> 
> Weeman on the other hand screws his back up with standard squats - it isn't just a matter of "learning form" or any of that nonsense - he just isn't built for it. Front squats present far less of a problem for him - where as for me, front squats just seem to put too much load on my knees.
> 
> Bottom line, don't stupidly go by lists or claims of "best" or "must do" exercises - try em', see what they do, see if they work for you. If they don't, then don't keep banging your head against a brick wall - do something else.


I completley disagree with this post RS. You definatley can learn to squat. Its about mobility and flexability. It is not true to say 'some people aren't built for it'. If you train and you neglect stretching/mobility work then you will inevitably become tight and have mobillity issues. Most people don't start squatting until they understand the importance of compound lifts. Think about when you first went into the gym. You train your hollywood muscles for months or in my case - years! ANd the result is weak core stability and poor flexability.

But people don't like changing their programmes or trying new lifts. You can't dismiss squats because you do them for a month and its not working. I have worked for over a year on my hip mobility and I can now just about get parrallel. I still have a slight forward bend due to my tight calves but am working on it.

Fair play you are obviosuly very well expereinced in the weight room and I have a lot of respect for your posts but to say squat form can't be learned is short sighted in my opinion. Unless you actually have a spinal condition say I think anybody who puts the effort in can squat and should squat


----------



## martin brown

1237matt said:


> I completley disagree with this post RS. You definatley can learn to squat. Its about mobility and flexability. It is not true to say 'some people aren't built for it'. If you train and you neglect stretching/mobility work then you will inevitably become tight and have mobillity issues. Most people don't start squatting until they understand the importance of compound lifts. Think about when you first went into the gym. You train your hollywood muscles for months or in my case - years! ANd the result is weak core stability and poor flexability.
> 
> But people don't like changing their programmes or trying new lifts. You can't dismiss squats because you do them for a month and its not working. I have worked for over a year on my hip mobility and I can now just about get parrallel. I still have a slight forward bend due to my tight calves but am working on it.
> 
> Fair play you are obviosuly very well expereinced in the weight room and I have a lot of respect for your posts but to say squat form can't be learned is short sighted in my opinion. Unless you actually have a spinal condition say I think anybody who puts the effort in can squat and should squat


I agree  There is no such thing as not being suited to a squat - people may be mechanically weaker due to limb lengths but we can all squat. As little children we all squat perfectly, it's part of our basic human movement pattern. We can all sit down and stand up as adults. Therefore we are all capable of squatting, albeit for some this will take a lot of work to correct all the imbalance and inflexibilty that lifestyle and training has presented us with.

Saying that I know alot of older/advanced BB'ers who dont anymore due to injuries/fear/laziness or whatever and they get around it with various other leg machines. I certainly wouldnt say you HAVE to squat but your missing out on things if you don't.

M


----------



## littlesimon

Important if you train for strength and power, not so essential if you're a bodybuilder.

I started squatting 5x5 in June 09. Started with just 60kg, 8 months later I squatted 227.5kg.


----------



## 1237matt

littlesimon said:


> Important if you train for strength and power, not so essential if you're a bodybuilder.
> 
> I started squatting 5x5 in June 09. Started with just 60kg, 8 months later I squatted 227.5kg.


What?! Thats ridiculous

- I bet that had a massive carry over to all your other lifts as well right?


----------



## YetiMan1436114545

phys sam said:


> HAve you tried these? He goes on a bit and clearly lives in a fishbowl but you get the jist.
> 
> qaQPfi8f27E[/MEDIA]]


Cheers mate will check at home!

See I'm a big tall **** Ludacris looking mother ****er.

I'm 6 foot 3 with gangly **** long limbs and **** and I pretty much suck at anything that involves bending or getting down.


----------



## rs007

1237matt said:


> I completley disagree with this post RS. You definatley can learn to squat. Its about mobility and flexability. It is not true to say 'some people aren't built for it'. If you train and you neglect stretching/mobility work then you will inevitably become tight and have mobillity issues. Most people don't start squatting until they understand the importance of compound lifts. Think about when you first went into the gym. You train your hollywood muscles for months or in my case - years! ANd the result is weak core stability and poor flexability.
> 
> But people don't like changing their programmes or trying new lifts. You can't dismiss squats because you do them for a month and its not working. I have worked for over a year on my hip mobility and I can now just about get parrallel. I still have a slight forward bend due to my tight calves but am working on it.
> 
> Fair play you are obviosuly very well expereinced in the weight room and I have a lot of respect for your posts but to say squat form can't be learned is short sighted in my opinion. Unless you actually have a spinal condition say I think anybody who puts the effort in can squat and should squat


You are wrong, simple. Flexibility obviously comes into it, my calve flexibility is sh!t, but like you say, that is something that can be improved.

But lets take another example, as it is one i have had personal experience of.

Bench pressing. Incline hurts my shoulders. Been training for 19 years, tried everything, still does it.

Flat is fine.

My tendons attach in such away that it just isn't an efficient movement for me, and, if I push towards wieght required for growth stimulus, I get hurt. Proven.

Brian, training same amount of time, do you not think he has tried and persisted at free squat? One of the better physiques on here, one of the strongest bbers on here - but hey, he just needs to learn form, right?

The fact he has a long torso and shorter legs puts the bottom of his spine in danger.

OK, strictly speaking, he CAN squat, if he keeps the wieght very low and out the dangerzone - but this is below what he needs to stimulate growth - so what is the point?

There is def a bio mechanical point here, subtle differences can have massive results.

Just because YOU can squat, squat well mayhap, I think it a bit pretentious to assume everyone can.


----------



## SD

I can see what Mat was saying, it is a primal movement pattern but that is unloaded, not loaded with a barbell + weight.

Brian's centre of gravity would be affected by a long back and short femurs, he would have to put the bar half way down his back to accomodate his physiology and that would be impossible.

Only way he could squat would be with dumbells to the side, but that would be limited by grip and dumbell size so that wouldn't work well either.

So I could imagine that he CAN squat, just not barbell, and not in a very satisfactory way for muscle growth.

SD


----------



## defdaz

I also hate all the machismo around full reps - if it ain't ass to ground then it doesn't count!

As a bodybuilder, I don't give a shiny sh*te how deep you, me or anyone goes - all I care about is quad development and baby, it doesn't matter how deep you go as long as you're growing.

From personal experience I know for a fact you don't need to go A2G. As I said previously - some guys I knew once literally used to do very very shallow partial reps and they had bigger quads than me, and I had big quads!!

Oh, and in powerlifting comps, don't you only have to go to parallel? :whistling:


----------



## defdaz

rs007 said:


> You are wrong, simple. Flexibility obviously comes into it, my calve flexibility is sh!t, but like you say, that is something that can be improved.
> 
> But lets take another example, as it is one i have had personal experience of.
> 
> Bench pressing. Incline hurts my shoulders. Been training for 19 years, tried everything, still does it.
> 
> Flat is fine.
> 
> My tendons attach in such away that it just isn't an efficient movement for me, and, if I push towards wieght required for growth stimulus, I get hurt. Proven.
> 
> Brian, training same amount of time, do you not think he has tried and persisted at free squat? One of the better physiques on here, one of the strongest bbers on here - but hey, he just needs to learn form, right?
> 
> The fact he has a long torso and shorter legs puts the bottom of his spine in danger.
> 
> OK, strictly speaking, he CAN squat, if he keeps the wieght very low and out the dangerzone - but this is below what he needs to stimulate growth - so what is the point?
> 
> There is def a bio mechanical point here, subtle differences can have massive results.
> 
> Just because YOU can squat, squat well mayhap, I think it a bit pretentious to assume everyone can.


Totally agree RS. Why risk injury to do an exercise that doesn't suit you?

Your quads don't know what exercise you are doing, people!! Only how hard it has to contract to do what you're asking of it. ARGH!! :lol:


----------



## rs007

defdaz said:


> I also hate all the machismo around full reps - if it ain't ass to ground then it doesn't count!
> 
> As a bodybuilder, I don't give a shiny sh*te how deep you, me or anyone goes - all I care about is quad development and baby, it doesn't matter how deep you go as long as you're growing.
> 
> From personal experience I know for a fact you don't need to go A2G. As I said previously - some guys I knew once literally used to do very very shallow partial reps and they had bigger quads than me, and I had big quads!!
> 
> Oh, and in powerlifting comps, don't you only have to go to parallel? :whistling:


100% agree with this, I go to knee joint @90

That means my femur isnt parallel to the ground, but just above. My legs grow great from this (prob my best bodypart after calves, but I don't train those), my knees are under far less risk. So for me, as a BBer, I get the best risk:return ratio from what I do currently.

Powerlifters may have different priorities, that is their business - but honestly, I don't think you could pay me enough to go A2G.


----------



## rs007

defdaz said:


> Totally agree RS. Why risk injury to do an exercise that doesn't suit you?
> 
> Your quads don't know what exercise you are doing, people!! Only how hard it has to contract to do what you're asking of it. ARGH!! :lol:


2 sets of quads jump to mind that are super impressive, but don't squat.

PScarb (I THINK he doesn't squat do to sever spine issues in past) and PRL (Pete Lawson).

It ISNT universal that it is vital for growth.

Again, this being in the strength area, and with squats being one of those lifts, obviously it is vital to those guys tho.


----------



## Guest

defdaz said:


> Oh, and in powerlifting comps, don't you only have to go to parallel? :whistling:


Yep, and?

Powerlifting isnt about quad development, it isnt about carry over to another sport and it isnt about looking good on stage. Its about lifting the most you can lift within the rules of the fed. Going lower than // increases the amount of work your body has to do to move the same weight. Thats just a waste in PL

I will always try to advise noobs to try and learn a full ATG squat first. if you cant, for whatever reason, then dont. But ill maintain that ATG is the healthiest way for your knees and most effective way to build muscle (while squatting) IMO.

I never had knee issues untill i started cutting squats at //.


----------



## rs007

SD said:


> I can see what Mat was saying, it is a primal movement pattern but that is unloaded, not loaded with a barbell + weight.
> 
> Brian's centre of gravity would be affected by a long back and short femurs, he would have to put the bar half way down his back to accomodate his physiology and that would be impossible.
> 
> Only way he could squat would be with dumbells to the side, but that would be limited by grip and dumbell size so that wouldn't work well either.
> 
> So I could imagine that he CAN squat, just not barbell, and not in a very satisfactory way for muscle growth.
> 
> SD


Thats what I was trying to say, you put it much better - yeah, strictly speaking, he can back squat in the traditional fashion, but not with enough wieght to hit his quads - he will cripple his lower back first.

He has found alternatives, front squat, dumbells etc so the basic squat movement is achievable - just not the traditional "must do" back squat.


----------



## rs007

mikex101 said:


> Yep, and?
> 
> Powerlifting isnt about quad development, it isnt about carry over to another sport and it isnt about looking good on stage. Its about lifting the most you can lift within the rules of the fed. Going lower than // increases the amount of work your body has to do to move the same weight. Thats just a waste in PL
> 
> I will always try to advise noobs to try and learn a full ATG squat first. if you cant, for whatever reason, then dont. But ill maintain that ATG is the healthiest way for your knees and most effective way to build muscle. IMO.
> 
> I never had knee issues untill i started cutting squats at //.


How can you universally state healthiest for knees? Not saying it isn't in your case, but it can't be in every case.

When any joint becomes jack knifed as in closing beyond 90deg, the force required to pull it straight has to oppose itself, one of the results in a joint specifically, being that the tendon gets pulled against the joint far more, since, it exerts an opossing force BY being bent round the joint. Kinda like a pulley - except you don't have a ball bearing in your knee, simply a (hopefully) low friction sliding setup.

This massively increases friction between the tendon and its running surfaces, simple mechanical fact.

Flexibility obv will be helped in full squats, no dispute there, but this friction increase in joints is unavoidable.

One person may have genetically robust joints and get away with it for longer... but not a risk I am prepared to take, especially when my particular legs grow just fine going to just above parallel.

Its all about risk:reward and that I suppose is goign to vary massively person to person, based on goals, and the subtle mechanical differences we all have...


----------



## big silver back

Being a short **** im made for squating and have repped 260kg a2g, but like i said earlier far to many injurys have turned me against them and to be honest my legs have never really resonded that well from them, i think its upto the individual. I think i can take the pepsi challange with the best of them when it comes to strength but bodybuilding isn't powerlifting and i think if you get more growth with leg pressing etc, do them :thumbup1:


----------



## phys sam

rs007 said:


> How can you universally state healthiest for knees? Not saying it isn't in your case, but it can't be in every case.
> 
> When any joint becomes jack knifed as in closing beyond 90deg, the force required to pull it straight has to oppose itself, one of the results in a joint specifically, being that the tendon gets pulled against the joint far more, since, it exerts an opossing force BY being bent round the joint. Kinda like a pulley - except you don't have a ball bearing in your knee, simply a (hopefully) low friction sliding setup.
> 
> This massively increases friction between the tendon and its running surfaces, simple mechanical fact.
> 
> Flexibility obv will be helped in full squats, no dispute there, but this friction increase in joints is unavoidable.
> 
> One person may have genetically robust joints and get away with it for longer... but not a risk I am prepared to take, especially when my particular legs grow just fine going to just above parallel.
> 
> Its all about risk:reward and that I suppose is goign to vary massively person to person, based on goals, and the subtle mechanical differences we all have...


This is one of your posts I agree with (for what its worth  )


----------



## 1237matt

big silver back said:


> Being a short **** im made for squating and have repped 260kg a2g, but like i said earlier far to many injurys have turned me against them and to be honest my legs have never really resonded that well from them, i think its upto the individual. I think i can take the pepsi challange with the best of them when it comes to strength but bodybuilding isn't powerlifting and i think if you get more growth with leg pressing etc, do them :thumbup1:


This another point though - People develop poor form on squat- lift too much ansd then get injured

They blame the squat for the reason they get injured rather than the poor technique executed. And this reason is another way i which the squat is 'warned against doing' but this is in fact on false pretences.


----------



## littlesimon

Another big difference is that bodybuilders seem to view Squats as an exercise to develop quads.

Powerlifters and Strength enthusiasts view the squat as a posterior chain exercise.

Below parallel brings the hams and glutes into play.


----------



## Guest

rs007 said:


> How can you universally state healthiest for knees? Not saying it isn't in your case, but it can't be in every case.
> 
> Ok, maybe i should have stated for healthy knees.
> 
> When any joint becomes jack knifed as in closing beyond 90deg, the force required to pull it straight has to oppose itself, one of the results in a joint specifically, being that the tendon gets pulled against the joint far more, since, it exerts an opossing force BY being bent round the joint. Kinda like a pulley - except you don't have a ball bearing in your knee, simply a (hopefully) low friction sliding setup.
> 
> This massively increases friction between the tendon and its running surfaces, simple mechanical fact.
> 
> Im not disputing that friction is increased, but so is the stability in the knee, when you are stopping and accelerating the force back, it is in strongest position in ATG, at 90 your knee is at its weakest and the force is at its highest.
> 
> This is my basis for stating ATG is healthiest for (most) knees
> 
> Flexibility obv will be helped in full squats, no dispute there, but this friction increase in joints is unavoidable.
> 
> One person may have genetically robust joints and get away with it for longer... but not a risk I am prepared to take, especially when my particular legs grow just fine going to just above parallel.
> 
> Its all about risk:reward and that I suppose is goign to vary massively person to person, based on goals, and the subtle mechanical differences we all have...
> 
> Agree with risk/reward. Thats why i have never said everyone should squat and squat ATG. I believe that you should try to squat ATG, if you cant, dont. Squatting isnt essential as proven by guys on here time and time again. But if you can and dont i think your selling yourself short.
> 
> :thumb:


----------



## defdaz

I know we're in the Strength section but this is still a bodybuilding forum so I'm going to say that for any multi-joint exercise you are always going to experience trouble at some point or other focusing the exercise to produce growth in any one particular area.

Squats affect quads, hams, glutes, lower back and so on. If you want to gain indiscriminately in all these areas then cool, do squats. Same with deadlifts. BUT, if you're thinking, hmmm, my glutes are doing fine I need to be more specific then you need to focus on exercises which hit those areas you're aiming to build.

You know what I mean? In a way (and go with me on this), quad involvement in squats is similar to tricep involvement in bench press (glutes / lower pack = pecs / front delts) as they serve to extend the limb in both exercises, and you wouldn't just rely on benching for triceps, would you?


----------



## littlesimon

defdaz said:


> Oh, and in powerlifting comps, don't you only have to go to parallel? :whistling:


You have to break parallel.


----------



## rs007

mikex101 said:


> Got you - cheers for response :thumbup1:
> 
> The reduced stopping/decellerating force is a valid point I suppose, A2G you have your hams cushioning against your calves, acting like a stop/buffer - fair point in that regard - but I suppose if you don't bomb down with the wieght like many do, this risk is largely averted anyway...


----------



## 1237matt

I train for strength and performance. Squats are a must. I accept a small minority of people can't do squats medically. But I also think many people make excuses because they don't understand the fundamental technique and how you need to work on it to get better so they just bin the excersie. The vast majoirty can. But they choose not to.

You take 2 guys- say they are identical genetically, eat same diet e.t.c. Man A does squats and Man B does leg press. Man A will be the stronger man. When all else (predominantly technique) is equal the stronger man will win.

To people looking to get stronger squats are universally important. Sure you can get strong without them but you are *not reaching your full potential.*

Ask a Sprinter/powerlifter how important squats are. Also remember you can be strong but not powerful. Squats (and the way you execute the technique) will aid your power dramtically.

I suppose it coms down to what you train for. I personally would never take someone training for strength/athetlic performace seriously if they didn't squat. but if they want BB looking quad development then fair enough squats are not the most important excersie.


----------



## 8103

I'm not built for squatting in the slightest - 6'4, naturally lanky, with very long limbs - yet I read starting strength from the beginning, practised squatting day in day out, and now I feel very confident with my form.

All about flexibility and learning the lift properly in my opinion. I enjoy powerlifting so thats what I train for. In my last comp one of the elite guys commented "you have a lonnggg way to go down" lol


----------



## Guest

rs007 said:


> Neee botha RS.
> 
> Its good to get different views on training, especially about something as contentious as squatting.
> 
> :rockon:


----------



## rs007

1237matt said:


> I train for strength and performance. Squats are a must. I accept a small minority of people can't do squats medically. But I also think many people make excuses because they don't understand the fundamental technique and how you need to work on it to get better so they just bin the excersie. The vast majoirty can. But they choose not to.
> 
> You take 2 guys- say they are identical genetically, eat same diet e.t.c. Man A does squats and Man B does leg press. Man A will be the stronger man. When all else (predominantly technique) is equal the stronger man will win.
> 
> To people looking to get stronger squats are universally important. Sure you can get strong without them but you are *not reaching your full potential.*
> 
> Ask a Sprinter/powerlifter how important squats are. Also remember you can be strong but not powerful. Squats (and the way you execute the technique) will aid your power dramtically.
> 
> I suppose it coms down to what you train for. I personally would never take someone training for strength/athetlic performace seriously if they didn't squat. but if they want BB looking quad development then fair enough squats are not the most important excersie.


I personally 100% agree with this post. I DO believe that most of the people that start a sentence "I don't squat because..." invariably finish with BS :lol:

Just felt I had to raise that there are genuine cases I have witnessed where someone actually isn't structured ideally for it; can still do it, but the question becomes is it worth doing.


----------



## Guest

crouchmagic said:


> In my last comp one of the elite guys commented "you have a lonnggg way to go down" lol


i feel your pain. 6'4" too


----------



## SD

rs007 said:


> How can you universally state healthiest for knees? Not saying it isn't in your case, but it can't be in every case.
> 
> When any joint becomes jack knifed as in closing beyond 90deg, the force required to pull it straight has to oppose itself, one of the results in a joint specifically, being that the tendon gets pulled against the joint far more, since, it exerts an opossing force BY being bent round the joint. Kinda like a pulley - except you don't have a ball bearing in your knee, simply a (hopefully) low friction sliding setup.
> 
> This massively increases friction between the tendon and its running surfaces, simple mechanical fact.
> 
> Flexibility obv will be helped in full squats, no dispute there, but this friction increase in joints is unavoidable.
> 
> One person may have genetically robust joints and get away with it for longer... but not a risk I am prepared to take, especially when my particular legs grow just fine going to just above parallel.
> 
> Its all about risk:reward and that I suppose is goign to vary massively person to person, based on goals, and the subtle mechanical differences we all have...


Wow! Never thought we would have the same opinion on Squats of all things but there it is! :thumbup1:

We have had the ATG vs Parallel squat arguement here about three or four times at least, it gets very heated from both camps but typically the ATG crew make up the majority. NIce to know when this kicks off again I will have a few more in my camp this time :laugh:

Been to conferences with very knowledgable Bbers who are Physiotherapists and the info they gave me on squats among other exercises was golden.

Basically taking your knee angle beyong 90 degrees increases the sheer forces across the knee joint incredibly, the result is a knee injury waiting to happen. May not happen today or tommorow but it only has to happen once and you wont be squatting for another year :whistling:

Plus there are side arguements that ATG work glutes more and who wants a J-Lo a*se? Parallel keep the tension on the quads.

SD


----------



## Guest

SD said:


> Basically taking your knee angle *beyong 90 degrees increases the sheer forces* across the knee joint incredibly, the result is a knee injury waiting to happen. May not happen today or tommorow but it only has to happen once and you wont be squatting for another year :whistling:
> 
> Plus there are side arguements that ATG work glutes more and who wants a J-Lo a*se? Parallel keep the tension on the quads.
> 
> SD


See, thats interesting. Ive always been under the impression that the Sheer force is highest at 90 and going beyond reduces this. Hence my post on last page.

Any more info SD>?


----------



## rs007

SD said:


> Wow! Never thought we would have the same opinion on Squats of all things but there it is! :thumbup1:
> 
> We have had the ATG vs Parallel squat arguement here about three or four times at least, it gets very heated from both camps but typically the ATG crew make up the majority. NIce to know when this kicks off again I will have a few more in my camp this time :laugh:
> 
> Been to conferences with very knowledgable Bbers who are Physiotherapists and the info they gave me on squats among other exercises was golden.
> 
> Basically taking your knee angle beyong 90 degrees increases the sheer forces across the knee joint incredibly, the result is a knee injury waiting to happen. May not happen today or tommorow but it only has to happen once and you wont be squatting for another year :whistling:
> 
> Plus there are side arguements that ATG work glutes more and who wants a J-Lo a*se? Parallel keep the tension on the quads.
> 
> SD


Can't rep again.

I already have a J-Lo ar$e :lol:

So 110% no A2G for me


----------



## rs007

mikex101 said:


> See, thats interesting. Ive always been under the impression that the Sheer force is highest at 90 and going beyond reduces this. Hence my post on last page.
> 
> Any more info SD>?


I thought you were referring to the tensile load through the connective tissue, in having to stop a fast descending wieght at parallel or thereabouts? This will def be lessened going A2G because of the bump stop effect of calves and hams closing up - but I personally prefer to just go down a lot slower, so not as much momentum to cope with at bottom :thumbup1:

All just a matter of personal preference really, and goals.


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## Guest

rs007 said:


> I thought you were referring to the tensile load through the connective tissue, in having to stop a fast descending wieght at parallel or thereabouts? This will def be lessened going A2G because of the bump stop effect of calves and hams closing up - but I personally prefer to just go down a lot slower, so not as much momentum to cope with at bottom :thumbup1:
> 
> All just a matter of personal preference really, and goals.


Sorry, was referring to sheer force at the knee joint rather than tensile loads on tissue


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## SD

mikex101 said:


> See, thats interesting. Ive always been under the impression that the Sheer force is highest at 90 and going beyond reduces this. Hence my post on last page.
> 
> Any more info SD>?


Yes your right, up to 60 degrees flexion there is increased shear forces on the ACL, but only up to 500N which is very safe. Beyond 60 degrees, there is an increase in shear forces upon the PCL but this time the force has been measured at 2000N.

Tests on the PCL have shown it can hold 4000N of force so a healthy PCL will accept an ATG squat hence why so many do it and get away with it, especially if they have well developed hamstrings. Anyone with an unhealthy knee however would be ill advised to go ATG and how will they know their knee is unhealthy until its too late?

Increase in weight lifted does not increase ACL or PCL load but it does increase compression forces. THe speed of ascent of the squat increases the sheer forces as does the difference in muscle control between the first and the last rep, so the faster and longer you do squats in one set, the greater the risk of injury.

There is an increase in patellofemoral compression beyond 90 degrees, up to 4-5000N or 4-7 times bodyweight, this causes a condtion known as Chondromacia Pattella, or a roughening of the underside of the knee cap causing it to track less smoothly across your femur.

Finally, the clincher, at beyond 90 degrees, there is no increasing force on the quads, in fact the forces peak at a knee angle of 80-90 degrees, so if quad strength/size is your goal, then ATG is a waste of time.

So in conclusion, ATG increases Patellofemoral forces up to 4-7 times bodyweight, it also increase shear forces on the PCL to a similar degree whilst giving no advantage to forces placed upon the quads. That being said ATG do activate the Glutes more and with good technique, slow repetitions, low bar placement, a healthy PCL and good hamstrings, they are relatively safe for many.

Parallel squats are safer without modification and provide more emphasis on the quads (vastus lateralis and medialis specifically) which is why most are doing squats.

Basically why increase injury risk to get a J-Lo butt when you were trying to build big wheels,... anyone??

SD


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## rodrigo

genetics i find for legs is up there with how important squats may be, i trained in a gym where an ex-footballer trained weights now and all he done was extensions about 5-10 sets and he had great quads, he was short tho but had top legs


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## MarkFranco

defdaz said:


> Why is it that when it comes to squats and deadlifts (especially deadlifts) we all turn into powerlifters and start going for 1 rep maxes?! :confused1: :crying:
> 
> Leave your ego at the door people! :lol:


Probably because this is the "Strength & power" sub forum


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## phys sam

mikex101 said:


> i feel your pain. 6'4" too


He's talking height Mike:whistling:

only kidding


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## MarkFranco

rodrigo said:


> genetics i find for legs is up there with how important squats may be, i trained in a gym where an ex-footballer trained weights now and all he done was extensions about 5-10 sets and he had great quads, he was short tho but had top legs


Yeah but I bet he cant squat alot


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## phys sam

SD said:


> Yes your right, up to 60 degrees flexion there is increased shear forces on the ACL, but only up to 500N which is very safe. Beyond 60 degrees, there is an increase in shear forces upon the PCL but this time the force has been measured at 2000N.
> 
> Tests on the PCL have shown it can hold 4000N of force so a healthy PCL will accept an ATG squat hence why so many do it and get away with it, especially if they have well developed hamstrings. Anyone with an unhealthy knee however would be ill advised to go ATG and how will they know their knee is unhealthy until its too late?
> 
> Increase in weight lifted does not increase ACL or PCL load but it does increase compression forces. THe speed of ascent of the squat increases the sheer forces as does the difference in muscle control between the first and the last rep, so the faster and longer you do squats in one set, the greater the risk of injury.
> 
> There is an increase in patellofemoral compression beyond 90 degrees, up to 4-5000N or 4-7 times bodyweight, this causes a condtion known as Chondromacia Pattella, or a roughening of the underside of the knee cap causing it to track less smoothly across your femur.
> 
> Finally, the clincher, at beyond 90 degrees, there is no increasing force on the quads, in fact the forces peak at a knee angle of 80-90 degrees, so if quad strength/size is your goal, then ATG is a waste of time.
> 
> So in conclusion, ATG increases Patellofemoral forces up to 4-7 times bodyweight, it also increase shear forces on the PCL to a similar degree whilst giving no advantage to forces placed upon the quads. That being said ATG do activate the Glutes more and with good technique, slow repetitions, low bar placement, a healthy PCL and good hamstrings, they are relatively safe for many.
> 
> Parallel squats are safer without modification and provide more emphasis on the quads (vastus lateralis and medialis specifically) which is why most are doing squats.
> 
> Basically why increase injury risk to get a J-Lo butt when you were trying to build big wheels,... anyone??
> 
> SD


See I read that one study summary as well, and I would say....

The PCL forces are increased in ATG squatting but this is not an issue unless you've already injured it previously.

ACL is irrelevent as forces decrease in ATG.

For those with ACL deficient knees, Squats can still be done, although a forward lean is advicated which increases posterior chain activation and reduced ACL stress to zero. Dn't allow knees to track forwards as in front squat.

Knee joint compression (tib/fem) increases with weight but is probably necessary to reduce shear forces and increased load on the ACL/PCL.

Joint shear and compression increase with muscle fatigue (shock/horror).

The only people who should worry are therefore those with knee cap probelms (patellofemoral joint) where loading increases the lower you go and the wider your stance goes.

Advice is to go narrow and low bar position (to increase hip flexion and reduce kneecap compression).

If you're doing squats for quad development then 90 is fine.

If you're training squats for hamstrings, concentrate on ascent phase and increasing weight.

Same study - Rafael Escamilla (2001) Medicine & Science in Sports & Exercise, 33(1), 127-141


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## phys sam

CAn't find a back related one yet


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## jw007

defdaz said:


> Why is it that when it comes to squats and deadlifts (especially deadlifts) we all turn into powerlifters and start going for 1 rep maxes?! :confused1: :crying:
> 
> Leave your ego at the door people! :lol:


Errr

Having competed in both BBding and powerlifting

My training has not varied enormously from which ever pursuit I am training for at given time

1 rep maxs are an intergral part of my training, I find I grow well using them

Over years I have had many training partners, and all have responded very well and made huge gains training with me

I will put your high rep training against my current training partner

Come back from a 6 year lay off, 8 month training back with me 205kg bench, 270kg a2g squat 260kg DL (on you tube if doubt me)

18.5 arms about 105kg with abs

Can you say same??


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## Guest

SD & Phys,

Its all got a bit technical for me now.

Cheers for posts lads


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## ba baracuss

As RS has said, they suit some people and don't suit others due to biomechanics. If they work for you do them, if not, don't.

I don't like them and won't be doing them anytime soon.


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## phys sam

mikex101 said:


> SD & Phys,
> 
> Its all got a bit technical for me now.
> 
> Cheers for posts lads


Basically unless your kneecaps hurt, then squat as deep as you want (with good form) and you'll most likely be OK :thumb:

If you want to have big quads and don't care what you squat, then do slow controlled half ones (or the leg press etc)


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## SD

phys sam said:


> Basically unless your kneecaps hurt, then squat as deep as you want (with good form) and you'll most likely be OK :thumb:
> 
> If you want to have big quads and don't care what you squat, then do slow controlled half ones (or the leg press etc)


Yeh thats it basically! SHould have just posted that lol :thumb:

SD


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## SK-XO

Imo on this different strokes for different folks. Theres plenty of bbers out there who have built huge legs from not doing squats, rather using say leg press or what not. They are a very very good exercise and good for building the mass, but they aren't essential for everyone.


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## defdaz

MarkFranco said:


> Probably because this is the "Strength & power" sub forum


I didn't realise you needed to be in the Strength & power section to be able to squat?  I'm talking generally. If you have a look few the journals you'll see many bbers who stick to highish reps normally suddenly come on all powerlifter stylee and go for 1 rep maxes on squats and deadlifts.


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## SD

defdaz said:


> I didn't realise you needed to be in the Strength & power section to be able to squat?  I'm talking generally. If you have a look few the journals you'll see many bbers who stick to highish reps normally suddenly come on all powerlifter stylee and go for 1 rep maxes on squats and deadlifts.


1 rep max is used by many here to guage increase in strength, I have only seen people do it here to check progress periodically.

SD


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## defdaz

jw007 said:


> Errr
> 
> Having competed in both BBding and powerlifting
> 
> My training has not varied enormously from which ever pursuit I am training for at given time
> 
> 1 rep maxs are an intergral part of my training, I find I grow well using them
> 
> Over years I have had many training partners, and all have responded very well and made huge gains training with me
> 
> I will put your high rep training against my current training partner
> 
> Come back from a 6 year lay off, 8 month training back with me 205kg bench, 270kg a2g squat 260kg DL (on you tube if doubt me)
> 
> 18.5 arms about 105kg with abs
> 
> Can you say same??


Last time someone measured my arms they were 21".  (But then I was a fattie! :lol: )

That's your choice Joe, and fair play but I'd rather avoid the higher risk of injury and stay focused on the job, hypertrophy. I really don't care what my max weights are for myself, let alone compared to someone elses, only whether I'm getting bigger or not, and as safely as possible. :thumbup1:


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## defdaz

SD said:


> 1 rep max is used by many here to guage increase in strength, I have only seen people do it here to check progress periodically.
> 
> SD


I don't even get that tbh SD. 1. You're using a certain weight for 10 reps say. Next workout you get 11 reps. A PB. Strength guage: Positive! 

Also, not sure the injury risk is really worth it, especially if you're a bber? :confused1:


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## littlesimon

Quite a few periodised strength programs work off percentages of your 1 rep max.

That's why a lot of people test their 1rm.

True, you can use a 1 rm calculator, but that can lead to stalling early or not getting the most out of a periodised program.


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## MarkFranco

defdaz said:


> I didn't realise you needed to be in the Strength & power section to be able to squat?  I'm talking generally. If you have a look few the journals you'll see many bbers who stick to highish reps normally suddenly come on all powerlifter stylee and go for 1 rep maxes on squats and deadlifts.


I see what you mean but in the interest of strength and power big numbers count, we count weight not calories, we admire pushing big numbers not low BF%


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## rs007

DefDaz

I have started going for 1rm on deads which I only started doing a couple of months ago, and squats.

I don't know. Whether it helps me be a better bber or not doesn't really come into it - I enjoy it. The challenge, the motivation - it has really helped keep my head in the game recently.

So, I guess, when you zoom out and look at the full situation - the sum of the parts - it has helped me be progress in BB, because I might not have stayed as focused without?


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## SD

defdaz said:


> I don't even get that tbh SD. 1. You're using a certain weight for 10 reps say. Next workout you get 11 reps. A PB. Strength guage: Positive!
> 
> Also, not sure the injury risk is really worth it, especially if you're a bber? :confused1:


Yes I agree, its not the safest guage of progress and prefer to use a 1 rep calculator myself after doing a 3-5 rep max.

SD


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## Dazzaemm2k7

some famous quotes that answer your question -

"shut up and squat"

"if you want big arms then you need to squat"

fact of the matter is squats are one of, if not THE, hardest exercises to perform thats why a lot of people dont do them but IMO if your not squatting your missing out and squats are the queen of exercises (deadlift is the king  ). So if your not doing them you are missing out and are just to lazy to do them and are trying to think of reasons not to do them because they are so tough and knackering !

so if your not squatting you are a lazy ****ebag **** face pr**k  !

lol maybe not that far but just my opinion 

i remember i asked myself that question a while back and the reason i was asking it was because i thought they were so tough and knackering and this lead me to say to myself "do i really HAVE to be doing these" because i was just looking for excuses not to do them, i'm not saying thats everyones case but it was my case and probably others case's so , you just need to shut up and do them cause they are a mothership of exercises (one of the most compound movements in existence)


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## SD

Dazzaemm2k7 said:


> some famous quotes that answer your question -
> 
> "shut up and squat"
> 
> "if you want big arms then you need to squat"
> 
> fact of the matter is squats are one of, if not THE, hardest exercises to perform thats why a lot of people dont do them but IMO if your not squatting your missing out and squats are the queen of exercises (deadlift is the king  ). So if your not doing them you are missing out and are just to lazy to do them and are trying to think of reasons not to do them because they are so tough and knackering !
> 
> so if your not squatting you are a lazy ****ebag **** face pr**k  !
> 
> lol maybe not that far but just my opinion
> 
> i remember i asked myself that question a while back and the reason i was asking it was because i thought they were so tough and knackering and this lead me to say to myself "do i really HAVE to be doing these" because i was just looking for excuses not to do them, i'm not saying thats everyones case but it was my case and probably others case's so , you just need to shut up and do them cause they are a mothership of exercises (*one of the most compound movements in existence*)


They are indeed :thumb: , they are a primal movement AND they use 260 muscles at once!! or was it 206??? still a lot either way :thumbup1: . Being a compound they can also raise muscle building hormones allegedly.

SD


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## Dig

I am surprised to hear people have troubles squatting tbh.

I have trained with lots of powerlifters, young and old, new and experienced and not a single one has had a problem squatting:confused1:

Obviously if previously injured with long term back/knee probs that is a different story.

Tbh i think a lot of people avoid squatting heavy as it is fcking hard (no need to jump in and tell me this isnt the case for you-i dont mean everyone who doesnt squat is lazy but i think does apply to many esp rec trainers).

Maybe different for different people but i find hack squats/leg press/leg extensions much much easier, and when feel tired/mentally drained i will drop squats as makes the workout much less strenuous (physically they can be hard and have thrown up after leg sessions that didnt involve squats but isnt like you have to be mentally prepared to do a heavy leg press). Just my opinion though


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## seppuku

Squatting makes me want to puke, not even talking heavy weight either!

That said, reading this thread has motivated me to man up and try em again!


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## MarkFranco

I can leg press over 300kg for sets and reps 3x8 last time i tryed

Compare that to a 205kgx3 squat

Squats are defo harder


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## jw007

defdaz said:


> Last time someone measured my arms they were 21".  (But then I was a fattie! :lol: )
> 
> That's your choice Joe, and fair play but I'd rather avoid the higher risk of injury and stay focused on the job, hypertrophy. I really don't care what my max weights are for myself, let alone compared to someone elses, only whether I'm getting bigger or not, and as safely as possible. :thumbup1:





defdaz said:


> I don't even get that tbh SD. 1. You're using a certain weight for 10 reps say. Next workout you get 11 reps. A PB. Strength guage: Positive!
> 
> Also, not sure the injury risk is really worth it, especially if you're a bber? :confused1:


Im not sure where the injury argument comes from???

If CNS properly prepped and warmed up, why would you be more likely to injure yourself on low reps???

As for 10 rep exercises, That is not really an accurate way to measure strength increases, As you prob are aware, there could be many different factors that could be attriubted to that extra rep on a 10 rep set, form, mindset, hydration levels, what you have eaten, even types of drugs using..

Doing a 1 -3 rep max, those factors are not nearly as relevant...

Besides, You will also find (as is case with me) My body would fatigue same whether doing 10 reps with 140kg on bench or 180kg so not so usefull

I just cant do high reps


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## martin brown

aledj said:


> hi, do u guys think squats are that important? and why? thanks


Yes because they make people grow.

Dont know what all the arguing was about lol.


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## dtlv

I think squats are important not because they are an "essential" exercise but because they are useful in a load of different ways... they work a lot of muscles, allow you to develop a lot of strength and size, are safe if done properly, and have a cardio effect at higher reps that will keep you fit too.

Have tried leg routines without a back squat variation before and you can certainly grow and progress on them, but my best gains in leg size and strength have all come when I've almost solely concentrated on squats.

I do have a bad right knee btw (injured when I was a kid, now got arthritis in the joint), but find squats help rather than make it worse.


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## HJL

jw007 said:


> I just cant do high reps (because i can count past 5 :lol: )


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