# Massive Shoulders In A Matter Of Minutes



## 21inchbiceps (Nov 8, 2006)

If you're looking to develop an impressive, muscular physique, well-developed shoulders are an absolute must. Thick, round "cannon ball delts" will make your upper body appear wide and powerful and will help immensely in creating the v-tapered look that all bodybuilders strive for. Many serious lifters will argue that underneath clothes, muscular shoulders make the greatest contribution toward the overall appearance of the upper body.

The shoulder is a 3-headed muscle that performs the function of lifting and rotating the arm. It consists of the anterior region (the front), the medial region (the middle) and the posterior region (the rear). These heads can be stimulated in the gym using two different movements: an overhead press and a raise.

The overhead press is the meat and potatoes of effective shoulder training. There isn't a single lift out there that can match the incredible shoulder-stimulating effect of a basic overhead pressing movement. Both a barbell and a dumbbell can be used for this exercise, but dumbbells are the best overall choice. Dumbbells allow you to move through a more natural range of motion and also don't allow one arm to cheat for the other. They also place a greater amount of total stress on the shoulder region in comparison to the barbell, which shifts some of the stress to the upper chest. I would recommend using the seated overhead dumbbell press as your core shoulder movement. Grab a pair of dumbbells and sit on a bench with a vertical back support. Press the dumbbells overhead until your elbows are just short of locking out, and then lower them back to shoulder level.

The next exercise to look into is a basic side lateral raise, which can also be performed with a pair of dumbbells. Side laterals are an isolation exercise and will shift the majority of the stress to the medial head of the shoulder. This will build greater shoulder width and will contribute to that wide upper body look. Stand with your knees slightly bent and hold a pair of dumbbells with your palms facing inward. With a slight bend in your arms, raise the dumbbells up to shoulder level and then lower them back to the starting position.

When it comes to training your shoulders for maximum size and strength, a basic overhead press and a side lateral raise is all you need. It's very important to realize that the shoulders are stimulated on virtually every single upper body exercise that you perform and therefore they do not require a lot of direct work. Most people perform far too much work on their shoulders and actually hinder their gains as a result. Because of this I typically do not recommend that you perform isolation exercises for the anterior and posterior heads. The anterior heads are heavily stressed during all chest pressing movements while the posterior heads are hit equally hard on all rowing movements for the back. A couple of extra sets won't hurt, but you should try to minimize the volume as much as you can. The key to massive shoulders is quality, not quantity.

Here are a couple of sample shoulder routines that you can use:

*1)* Seated Overhead Dumbbell Press - 2 sets of 5-7 reps

Standing Dumbbell Side Laterals - 1-2 sets of 10-12 reps

If you insist on performing isolation exercises for the front and rear heads, you can use this routine:

*2) *Seated Overhead Dumbbell Press - 2 sets of 5-7 reps

Standing Dumbbell Side Laterals - 1-2 sets of 10-12 reps

Standing Front Dumbbell Raise - 1 set of 10-12 reps

Seated Rear Lateral Dumbbell Raise - 1 set of 10-12 reps

There you have it. All sets should be taken to complete muscular failure where no additional reps can be completed using proper form. Keep a detailed record of each workout and strive for continual improvement from week to week by either increasing the resistance or the number of reps performed.

Happy shoulder training!


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Well, I do like to do a little rear delt work in there myself.


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## nick500 (Dec 12, 2005)

hmmm 'Massive Shoulders In A Matter Of Minutes' - the only way i see doing that is synthol


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

nick500 said:


> hmmm 'Massive Shoulders In A Matter Of Minutes' - the only way i see doing that is synthol


Oh man, you are oh so much subtle than me..........:rolleye11


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## megatron (Apr 21, 2004)

"All sets should be taken to complete muscular failure where no additional reps can be completed using proper form"

One bodypart I would hate to fail is shoulders, rotator cuff injuries anyone?


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## Tatyana (Jan 29, 2006)

megatron said:


> "All sets should be taken to complete muscular failure where no additional reps can be completed using proper form"
> 
> One bodypart I would hate to fail is shoulders, rotator cuff injuries anyone?


You also need a partner to do that, which not all of us have all the time.

I haven't had a rotator cuff injury, but I have heard that these 'scare crow' exercises work to prevent them.

Really light weight, dumbells, held in a similar position as when you are on the negative of the military press.

Instead of pressing up, you drop your hands forward till parallel with floor and then back up again. Fairly high reps.


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## fits (Feb 3, 2004)

i like upright bar rows for shoulders too....


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Tatyana said:


> You also need a partner to do that, which not all of us have all the time.
> 
> I haven't had a rotator cuff injury, but I have heard that these 'scare crow' exercises work to prevent them.
> 
> ...


I do these, they are called Cuban rotators.

You have to like suck your stomach up and stick out your chest to do them right.


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## trickymicky69 (Oct 1, 2004)

i definitely like to train rear delts as i find a lot of bbers have rounded shoulders from all the pressing and pushing they do. plus it helps to hit the rhomboids as well


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

trickymicky69 said:


> i definitely like to train rear delts as i find a lot of bbers have rounded shoulders from all the pressing and pushing they do. plus it helps to hit the rhomboids as well


To this I entirely agree.....totally........


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## fits (Feb 3, 2004)

trickymicky69 said:


> i definitely like to train rear delts as i find a lot of bbers have rounded shoulders from all the pressing and pushing they do. plus it helps to hit the rhomboids as well


 I dont find this, i find that if i want width i go for DB side lateral raises and upright rows (along with OHP). I thought training rear delts was more for thickness? Saying that when ever i have trained shoulders with isolation execises i will always have a rear delt move in there.:lift:


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## Toregar (Apr 5, 2006)

If you neglect rear delts for a long period of time, you're only increasing your risk for shoulder injury. Having powerful anterior and lateral heads, along with weak posterior heads, is a no-go, imo. However, I believe you can get away without doing the rear delts until you've put on a decent amount of mass. Rows/Deadlifts will help to beef up the area where your rear delts tie in to your back. That's just for me though ... If you have shoulder problems, best to hit all 3 heads.

As hacks and trickey said, too ... They are exactly right in saying a lot of BBers have a rounded look to them. They neglect rear delts, which help keep the shoulders pulled back. Also, strong rear delts are crucial in the bench press ... So, strengthening those rear delts, will in effect strengthen your chest, which will make you an even bigger BBer


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

My injury was muscle imballance.

Now I do two bent over rowing type exercises using diffrent angles and my shoulders are almost 100% healed up.

I do isolate them on shoulder day too.


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## GINGER-GOAT (Nov 6, 2006)

i dont have a training partner and i wouldnt want one.i do giant sets for shoulders and stay intense with a matter of 30seconds rest inbetween sets.20sets for shoulder prymiding up starting reps 15,12,10,6.massive!!!!


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

20 sets for shoulders?

Can you explain this?


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## GINGER-GOAT (Nov 6, 2006)

what do you mean man lol,i do this for every thing i train HVT,5-6 exercises 4 sets per one i start with traps eg:

upright rows-4 sets

shrugs-4sets

dumbell press-4sets

front raises-4 sets

and i usaly finish of with side laterals high reps-3 sets,rear delts are trained with back.i change my routine around every 2 weeks.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

GINGER-GOAT said:


> what do you mean man lol,i do this for every thing i train HVT,5-6 exercises 4 sets per one i start with traps eg:
> 
> upright rows-4 sets
> 
> ...


That looks like overtraining if I ever saw it.

Maybe you can get away with it using all that gear but I doubt the natty guy can do all that volume unless the intensity is low.


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## crazycal1 (Sep 21, 2005)

LOL for shoulders all i`m only doing 4 worksets for military press and thats it.

seems to work too.


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## Toregar (Apr 5, 2006)

I do seated DB Press/Military Press/Seated Smith Machine Press over a 9 day period of time. One work set per, and only one exercise per bodypart per day. I'm lovin' DC Training


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## GINGER-GOAT (Nov 6, 2006)

hackskii said:


> That looks like overtraining if I ever saw it.
> 
> Maybe you can get away with it using all that gear but I doubt the natty guy can do all that volume unless the intensity is low.


no such thing as over training if your eating plenty and sleeping well i think its a myth and its what the lazy lads at the gym say.using all what gear?ive been off for over a year!i can get all that done in 45mins like i say i wouldnt have a training partner given as i find it slows me down i just go i and bang it out with 30 sec rest inbetween sets simple.HVT is the key for me.it worked for arnie,lee preist,markus and ronnie uses this style.this way keeps me in shape and acts as a form off cardio with the speed i train at.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

GINGER-GOAT said:


> no such thing as over training if your eating plenty and sleeping well i think its a myth and its what the lazy lads at the gym say.using all what gear?ive been off for over a year!i can get all that done in 45mins like i say i wouldnt have a training partner given as i find it slows me down i just go i and bang it out with 30 sec rest inbetween sets simple.HVT is the key for me.it worked for arnie,lee preist,markus and ronnie uses this style.this way keeps me in shape and acts as a form off cardio with the speed i train at.


Ronnie uses this?

So him doing 800 pound dead lifts just 5 weeks out from the O and you consider this high volume?

If the intensity isnt there then fine, but with any intensity there would be overtraining and this is not a myth.


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## GINGER-GOAT (Nov 6, 2006)

i think you dont understand hvt mate,intensity is their always im in and out in 40-45min 5 days a week 20 sets evrytime per muscle group.like i say myth as long as you give it 48 hours then its fine.its not about the wheight you deadlift or push or whatever its the amount of sets,


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

I understand what you are saying.

You suggested Ronny does this when I was looking at video's of him going to failure doing 800 pound dead lifts and 200 pound dumbell bench presses to failure.

I seriously he is doing 4 or 5 sets like per exercise using that much intensity.

This makes no sense to me.

Either you use volume or intensity not both.


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## GINGER-GOAT (Nov 6, 2006)

both mate,loads of guys and pros train like this.try it sometime.i doesnt work for everyone i supose but it works fine for me.only a handfull of people have done well on the pro scene using the hit method,they both have their his and lows,when you read about hit it sounds true as told well,but when i get in the gym it feels like a poor style of training for me anyway.when i say i train intense i mean i dont spend much time resting i keep going till im wet with sweat.you gotta do what works for you at the end of the day.


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## trickymicky69 (Oct 1, 2004)

i have started training shoulders on my chest day. it seems to make so much more sense to me as your front delts are exhausted anyhow

4 sets of each exercise unless stated

monday-back

wide grip chins

dumbell rows

reverse flyes

narrow grip seated rows

hyperextensions 2 sets to failure+20kgs

tuesday-chest and shoulders

flat bench barbell press

incline dumbell press

overhead military press

seated lateral raises

wednesday-off

thursday-legs

squats

hamstring curls

squats with bar to front

calf raises

friday-arms

barbell curls

close grip chins with underhand grip

incline dumbell curls

close grip bench

weighted dips+20kgs

ez bar overhead extensions

i find that if i train shoulders like this i dont suffer from overtraining like i do when i do them on a seperate day


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## Ralphy (Mar 13, 2006)

I have to say I agree with my old pal Ginger-Goat  .

This "overtraining" term is used far too much. With a sound diet and plenty of rest, 20 sets per week on anyone bodypart should not cause a problem.

This week I did 15 sets for delts. Anything less & it just seems that my workout was just a waste of bloody time!

High volume, high intensity, moderate weight all the way for me.

Roof roof Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr


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## GINGER-GOAT (Nov 6, 2006)

Ralphy said:


> I have to say I agree with my old pal Ginger-Goat  .
> 
> This "overtraining" term is used far too much. With a sound diet and plenty of rest, 20 sets per week on anyone bodypart should not cause a problem.
> 
> ...


nice1 ralphy old pal lol,at last someone agrees to this style of training.thats how i feel if i do less,doing it this way you have a very small chance of getting injured aswell,the pump is better and its not EGO training.by the way nice bully mate is that yours?


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## GINGER-GOAT (Nov 6, 2006)

trickymicky69 said:


> i have started training shoulders on my chest day. it seems to make so much more sense to me as your front delts are exhausted anyhow
> 
> 4 sets of each exercise unless stated
> 
> ...


trickey mate try it this way you might feel better it depends on what day the muscles are worked eg:if you train triceps on mon dont train chest on a tues or shoulder coz you will be tierd in that area try this mate.

mon-chest+triceps

tues-back+biceps

wed-rest

thurs-shoulders

fri-legs

sat-rest

sun-rest

on rest days you can do some light cardio or a touch up session which is hitting a muscle again for the second time in the week just a nice light sesh.hope this helps mate.


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## big (Sep 14, 2004)

GINGER-GOAT said:


> no such thing as over training if your eating plenty and sleeping well i think its a myth


What do you think would happen if you do this every 48 hours?

Squats 10x10 every set to failure

Bench 10x10 every set to failure

OHP 10x10 every set to failure

Chins 10x10 every set to failure

Deads 10x10 every set to failure


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## Toregar (Apr 5, 2006)

Overtraining is no myth. The body can only take so much, you overload it with more than it can handle, and you're going to succumb to overtraining. Even if you have grade A genetics, along with AAS, if you do too much ... you won't recover from it.

Yeah, HVT worked for Arnold and all those guys, because they had god-given genetics and AAS. Arnold worked 10-12 hour days bricklaying + all the HVT training he did and he STILL made great progess. Most anyone put under that kind of strain wouldn't have made much, if any, progress. He also lifted while in the military, carrying around weights in storage in his tank, and STILL made gains. That's amazing ... What about Mike Mentzer/Dorian Yates ? Advocates of HIT training ... What works for one person, might not be so great for another. I bet no matter the training, any pro would still be huge, their genetics are too good.

HVT does not work for me. Low Volume/High Intensity Training does ... HVT burns me out ... In the end, you can only do as much as your body will allow, with proper re-cooperation.


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## GINGER-GOAT (Nov 6, 2006)

big said:


> What do you think would happen if you do this every 48 hours?
> 
> Squats 10x10 every set to failure
> 
> ...


thats just plain silly my freind,and so is training to failure.low volume is lazy:tongue10:


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## big (Sep 14, 2004)

GINGER-GOAT said:


> thats just plain silly my freind,and so is training to failure.low volume is lazy:tongue10:


Yes it's plain silly - because it would result in overtraining very quickly. Hence overtraining exists. Even if you did every set 1-2 reps from failure, it would most likely very quickly cause you to stall unless you have incredible work capacity and/or genetics.

I concur that as long as you know how to weight the intensity and frequency, and know when to back off, volume can be taken very high for many people and is an excellent way to train. But to suggest that nobody can ever overtrain is a sweeping statement which couldn't be further from the truth.


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## Toregar (Apr 5, 2006)

\ said:


> low volume is lazy


Pshaw ! Real men use low volume :tongue10: See what I did there ?

Anyways, when I look at low volume, I look at this way. I have 1 or 2 warm-up sets, then an all out work set. I get myself psyched out for that one set, and give it everything I've got. I've experienced the best gains of my life doing DC training. It's all a personal thing ... I see a guy doing HVT in my gym and if it's working for him, then props to him. As long as the routine is working for you, that's all that matters.


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## GINGER-GOAT (Nov 6, 2006)

big said:


> Yes it's plain silly - because it would result in overtraining very quickly. Hence overtraining exists. Even if you did every set 1-2 reps from failure, it would most likely very quickly cause you to stall unless you have incredible work capacity and/or genetics.
> 
> I concur that as long as you know how to weight the intensity and frequency, and know when to back off, volume can be taken very high for many people and is an excellent way to train. But to suggest that nobody can ever overtrain is a sweeping statement which couldn't be further from the truth.


it doesent exist within reason,your quote is just daft


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## big (Sep 14, 2004)

GINGER-GOAT said:


> it doesent exist within reason,your quote is just daft


So you do concur that it exists then?

The bottom line is that the brink of overtraining is different for everyone.

While you may get great gains from 20 sets per workout, others may overtrain quickly. Similarly, while some people can manage 30-40 sets per workout, you might not be able to.


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## GINGER-GOAT (Nov 6, 2006)

do you know or have ever heard of anyone doing 10sets of squats in your life?like i said befor hit or hvt its all on the person i agree with that.in a bodybuilding world i still beleave it doesent exist,but in your crazy world who knows.ive seen many of guy do the hit style and they try to lift far too much wich gives them sloppy form all they think about is lifting the wheight up not training the muscle,ego training,not everyone but most.and i have done 40 sets for arms when i used to train bis+tris together but ive got a lot more work on these days so time is money.


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## big (Sep 14, 2004)

GINGER-GOAT said:


> do you know or have ever heard of anyone doing 10sets of squats in your life?like i said befor hit or hvt its all on the person i agree with that.in a bodybuilding world i still beleave it doesent exist,but in your crazy world who knows.ive seen many of guy do the hit style and they try to lift far too much wich gives them sloppy form all they think about is lifting the wheight up not training the muscle,ego training,not everyone but most.and i have done 40 sets for arms when i used to train bis+tris together but ive got a lot more work on these days so time is money.


Yes, German Volume Training is 10 sets of 10 on a single lift. Russian loading often prescribes 10 sets of squats. In particular, the smolov squat cycle (which is the holy grail of squat routines) calls for 10 sets of squats on the 4th squatting day of the week during the initial 3 week loading phase. These are actually effective because they weight the intensity, frequency and deload correctly.

The problem is when the other variables are weighted in correctly and (shock horror), overtraining occurs. Additionally, among other things, the weights you are lifting dictates the kind of volume you are likely to be able to use. Do you really think an 800-900lb squatter can lift that amount of weight continuously for a high volume session week in and week out?

Plenty of people cannot handle 40 sets for arms and to suggest that everyone can is another sweeping statement which, when you look at the guys in the gym who are regularly failing by using this method of training, is inaccurate.


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## GINGER-GOAT (Nov 6, 2006)

big said:


> The problem is when the other variables are weighted in correctly and (shock horror), overtraining occurs. Additionally, among other things, the weights you are lifting dictates the kind of volume you are likely to be able to use. Do you really think an 800-900lb squatter can lift that amount of weight continuously for a high volume session week in and week out?im glad you said that mate,right look at it this way lets say if my max bench is 100kg that is the most i can lift and say your is 200kg that still makes me as strong as you its all bullsh1t mate.your lifting to the max you can do and so is everybody else so theirs no difference if you can lift it once you can lift it time and time again its all bull.if your diet is on then you should grow the same rate as someone squating 400kg to your 200kg becoz your still doing as much as you can handle as he is.
> 
> Plenty of people cannot handle 40 sets for arms and to suggest that everyone can is another sweeping statement which,i never did:rolleyes:


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## big (Sep 14, 2004)

GINGER-GOAT said:


> im glad you said that mate,right look at it this way lets say if my max bench is 100kg that is the most i can lift and say your is 200kg that still makes me as strong as you its all bullsh1t mate.your lifting to the max you can do and so is everybody else so theirs no difference if you can lift it once you can lift it time and time again its all bull.if your diet is on then you should grow the same rate as someone squating 400kg to your 200kg becoz your still doing as much as you can handle as he is.


A guy squatting 800-900lbs is typically not born with the ability to squat 800-900lbs. He works up to it over a period of time. It's not just about "lifting to the max" - he's built up a tremendous amount of strength in many forms - muscular, nervous and mental.

Typically when he was a 200lb squatting newbie, he could handle a LOT more sets than when he becomes an 800-900lb squatter.

Ask some people lifting seriously big weights. You will find on the whole, as they get stronger, they HAVE to back off some on the volume in order to have their CNS recover, or they overtrain. I have had to do this myself - and I don't consider myself to be lifting seriously big weights - although I do train some people who do.

A guy who squats 200lbs will probably be able to do 8 reps with about 80% of his max (160lbs) quite comfortably for multiple sets. Whereas an 800lb squatter will probably collapse very quickly if he tried to do multiple sets of 640lbs for 8 reps (80% of his max). It's because even though they are both working in the same relative intensity level, an 800lb squat takes WAY more out of someone's CNS than a 200lb squat.

Out of interest dude, how much are you lifting?


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## GINGER-GOAT (Nov 6, 2006)

big said:


> A guy squatting 800-900lbs is typically not born with the ability to squat 800-900lbs. He works up to it over a period of time. It's not just about "lifting to the max" - he's built up a tremendous amount of strength in many forms - muscular, nervous and mental.a guy squating 200lbs is not born to lift that aswell it will have took him time to get to that lift so its the same.
> 
> Typically when he was a 200lb squatting newbie, he could handle a LOT more sets than when he becomes an 800-900lb squatter.
> 
> ...


200kg deads,120kg bench,160kg on squats.i can do this week in week out.and a bit at a time i get a little stronger and add some wheight.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Wow, this thread is a goldmine of information.

This is some fun reading here.

Fantastic post big.


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## big (Sep 14, 2004)

GINGER-GOAT said:


> 200kg deads,120kg bench,160kg on squats.i can do this week in week out.and a bit at a time i get a little stronger and add some wheight.


A 200lb squatter could most definitely have squatted 200lbs on his first trip to the gym ever, having never trained before. An 800-900lb squatter couldn't. The 800-900lb squatter will require more resources, relatively, to lift the same percentage of his max that a 200lb squatter will. Are you honestly trying to tell me that you believe an 800lb squatter could do 3 sets of 8 with 640lbs as easily as a 200lb squatter could do 160lbs for 3 sets of 8?! Speak to anyone who is lifting seriously big weight, and in most cases they will tell you the same - that as they've got stronger, they have HAD to back off volume slightly or they burn out.

Your lifts are impressive dude, but I bet when you are eventually lifting say 50% more, you will find you will not be able to recover from as many sets as what you're lifting now. This is quite common once you've really pushed yourself close to the limits of what you can do.

Obviously keep doing what you're doing as you are progressing, but I would bet that you will not get those linear gains forever at the same relative level of volume. You will have to back off eventually to keep progressing.

This is exactly why young guys can add 40-50lbs of relatively lean mass to their physiques with the help of trainers like Rippletoe and Pendlay in the space of a year or so, because they are able to squat, push and pull heavy (for them) 3-4x/week (full body routines 3-4x/week). Whereas as soon as they start to get proper strong (compared to what they used to be at), they have to back off and generally drop squatting to twice, or even once a week... because it beats up their CNS too much to be able to recover from.


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## GINGER-GOAT (Nov 6, 2006)

big said:


> A 200lb squatter could most definitely have squatted 200lbs on his first trip to the gym ever, having never trained before. An 800-900lb squatter couldn't. The 800-900lb squatter will require more resources, relatively, to lift the same percentage of his max that a 200lb squatter will. Are you honestly trying to tell me that you believe an 800lb squatter could do 3 sets of 8 with 640lbs as easily as a 200lb squatter could do 160lbs for 3 sets of 8?!yes i am your max is your max it dosent matter how much you lift its all the same in reality.Speak to anyone who is lifting seriously big weight, and in most cases they will tell you the same - that as they've got stronger, they have HAD to back off volume slightly or they burn out.
> 
> Your lifts are impressive dude, but I bet when you are eventually lifting say 50% more, you will find you will not be able to recover from as many sets as what you're lifting now. This is quite common once you've really pushed yourself close to the limits of what you can do.when i was squating half of what im doing now i thought i was at my limit but i still recovered so i dont beleave this.
> 
> ...


mmmmm

ive enjoyed this debait big theirs been some good points put across lets just leave it here now mate eh im running out of ways to show you my opinion lol and me fingers are pumped lol.you stick to what you beleave in and ill stick to mine lol,at least peeps can have a look at the differant ways weather im right or wrong.but i think im right:tongue10: lol peace mate cheerz.


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## Ralphy (Mar 13, 2006)

GINGER-GOAT said:


> nice1 ralphy old pal lol,at last someone agrees to this style of training.thats how i feel if i do less,doing it this way you have a very small chance of getting injured aswell,the pump is better and its not EGO training.by the way nice bully mate is that yours?


Delts have got to be easiest bodypart to injure imo. Anytime I have tried to train them heavy with low OR high volume, an injury occurs. In light of this, quick, high volume and moderate weight works best for me. Yeah thats my dog (well actually that one's my brothers).



big said:


> What do you think would happen if you do this every 48 hours?
> 
> Squats 10x10 every set to failure
> 
> ...


^^ This is just a ridiculous routine lol. 10x10 squats and deads to failure every 48 hours... Suicide!

Think my OLD PAL the Ginger-Goat up there in the Yorkshire fields was taken out of context somewhat. Of course a routine similar to above is overtraining but when someone says they are doing 20 sets for delts, I cant see why this is put under scrutiny.

To conclude, I dont think 20 sets is overtraining.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

I did 8 sets today for shoulders, I was going to do rear delts but they are still hammered from Back on Tuesday so I dropped them today.

You really have to listen to your body.


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## GINGER-GOAT (Nov 6, 2006)

Ralphy said:


> Delts have got to be easiest bodypart to injure imo. Anytime I have tried to train them heavy with low OR high volume, an injury occurs. In light of this, quick, high volume and moderate weight works best for me. Yeah thats my dog (well actually that one's my brothers).ive got a pure white bully 7 month old top dogs mate just a bit radged eh.
> 
> ^^ This is just a ridiculous routine lol. 10x10 squats and deads to failure every 48 hours... Suicide!
> 
> ...


i know what you mean old skool training worked back then and still does today imo.if you eat plenty of grass like me you can do 20 sets eazy lol barrr barrr.


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## big (Sep 14, 2004)

GINGER-GOAT said:


> yes i am your max is your max it dosent matter how much you lift its all the same in reality


Ok, I'm not too sure how else to explain this, so I'll use some numbers and explain further.

Total work is determined by frequency, intensity and volume.

Take two squatters, one lifts 200lbs, the other lifts 800lbs. Each will squat once a week with 80% of their 1RM for 3 sets of 8.

The relative intensity is EXACTLY the same for each (80%), and the frequency is the same for each (once a week).

However, the total volume for the 200lbs squatter is 160x3x8 = 3840lbs.

Whereas the total volume for the 800lbs squatter is 640x3x8 = 15360lbs.

How on earth can you not see that the 800lbs squatter has to do a **** load more work at the SAME relative intensity and same exact frequency level, and how can you not see that it is MUCH harder on his CNS?


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## GINGER-GOAT (Nov 6, 2006)

big said:


> Ok, I'm not too sure how else to explain this, so I'll use some numbers and explain further.
> 
> Total work is determined by frequency, intensity and volume.
> 
> ...


jesus dont you ever give in,you just dont get it,in their own way their just as strong each other you lift the most you can lift and so do i well done if you can squat 800lbs and well done to you who can squat 200lbs thats the most they both can lift so its exactly the same amount off stress on the body for the both of them.theirs no difference mate whatever way you look at it.


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## big (Sep 14, 2004)

GINGER-GOAT said:


> jesus dont you ever give in,you just dont get it,in their own way their just as strong each other you lift the most you can lift and so do i well done if you can squat 800lbs and well done to you who can squat 200lbs thats the most they both can lift so its exactly the same amount off stress on the body for the both of them.theirs no difference mate whatever way you look at it.


No, I am not sure what you are missing here, but while the relative intensity is the same (80%), the total volume is completely different.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

GINGER-GOAT said:


> wrong again pal ill type it again you shouldnt be working on here you have no idea.you think coz you train heavyer than me you train harder than me.so silly.


Easy buddy, It is not your say to say who works on here or who mods what.

Keep it clean ok?

I have known big for quite some time and he is probably one of the most school'd dudes I know on routines.

This is a forum, we all have input here.

But the name calling (trickymicky's thread) needs to stop.

There is nice ways of saying things and there are not so nice ways of saying things.

Are you reading me here?


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## Andy1972 (Sep 24, 2006)

really interesting read this one, i'm backing the volume off at the moment due to recovery issues and after reading this it makes even more sense.


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## crazycal1 (Sep 21, 2005)

bump everything big said...


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## trickymicky69 (Oct 1, 2004)

all i know is that a couple of weeks after a good holiday, my lifts always go up by a bit. i reckon half the time we dont even know we are overtraining because we are so used to it. i feel my tiredness more in the brain than in the body, so i take a week off every 12 weeks which gives me 1 month per year to unwind and get over any niggling injuries i have before they turn into something much bigger. its all horses for courses (or goats) but it works for me


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## cut_czech (Nov 17, 2006)

fits said:


> i like upright bar rows for shoulders too....


upright rows hit the traps and rhomboids more than the shoulders


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## Toregar (Apr 5, 2006)

cut_czech said:


> upright rows hit the traps and rhomboids more than the shoulders


It can, but it also depends on your mind-muscle connection. If you focus more on the shoulders doing the majority of the work, then your shoulders will become more involved in the exercise.

Like, in my DC training. I'm advised to do Hammer Curls for Forearms, which I always used to do for bicep thickness. Well, I concentrate on my forearms doing as much of the work as possible, and it works out real nice.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Toregar said:


> It can, but it also depends on your mind-muscle connection. If you focus more on the shoulders doing the majority of the work, then your shoulders will become more involved in the exercise.
> 
> Like, in my DC training. I'm advised to do Hammer Curls for Forearms, which I always used to do for bicep thickness. Well, I concentrate on my forearms doing as much of the work as possible, and it works out real nice.


There is something to this, about 20 years ago I was in this gym and the owner was about 60 years old.

I was doing pullups and he walked up and says "can I give you some advice?"

I said sure.

He said when doing pullups think of pushing your elbos down and not pulling your body up.

Bamb, added a few more reps on the spot.

Its funny how some times we need to re-learn things.

Who would have thought of that?


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## SCJP (Sep 8, 2005)

hackskii said:


> He said when doing pullups think of pushing your elbos down and not pulling your body up.


One of the northern chaps on here mentioned this too. Tried it & it certainly helped.

Same with squats, I try to push my feet through the floor. I got stuck at 110 ('what incredible strength this man has', I can hear you all shouting), & this technique pushed (pun intended, sorry) me through.


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## big (Sep 14, 2004)

SCJP said:


> One of the northern chaps on here mentioned this too. Tried it & it certainly helped.
> 
> Same with squats, I try to push my feet through the floor. I got stuck at 110 ('what incredible strength this man has', I can hear you all shouting), & this technique pushed (pun intended, sorry) me through.


Exactly. Same with deads too.

Similar with bench too - think of pushing yourself away from the bar.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Oh damn, that is heavy.

Push your feet through the floor, I did the opposite here.

Oh man, this is great.

Push yourself away from the bar, I do this and dont do this......

Wow, funny how the mind makes a diffrence in diffrent muscle recruitement's


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## gengiz (Nov 20, 2008)

hi everyone im new on here and i need to get some size back on can anyone help me out


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

gengiz said:


> hi everyone im new on here and i need to get some size back on can anyone help me out


Basic compound movments, sleep and food.


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## paulo (Feb 17, 2007)

less is more, less volume and more intensity = better stimulation and growth

even less is even more, if you can flick the growth switch with one working set,why do more? just rest eat recover and grow

just my tuppence worth --as of jan feb we are trying 5x5 on compounds for a trial see how we get on,but factoring in more rest days due to incresed volume


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