# huge and lean on double cream



## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

Ok there is a guy at our gym who I have not seen for a while as I train different times to him .

He has always has a good physique quite big and lean anyway i saw him yesterday after not seeing him for a few months . The guy has turned into a monster his muscles have filled out and grown and he looks leaver than ever . I asked him what he has been doing he said he had increased his calories saying he takes in 5-6000 calories a day . I said to him that must mean eating a whole lot of food and hard to achieve he says it's simple he adds double cream to his shakes .

I have looked into it 100ml double cream which is just a few tablespoons is nearly 600 calories add that to your whey shake it's over 800 calories and it's so easy to get down .

I asked him about the saturated fat he said its not a problem as it's natural fats and not hydrogenated fats that your body can't break down .The guy is at university studying exercise and sports science he knows his stuff . He also adds things like white wine sauce to his chicken and rice as that has double cream in it . The guy swears by it and says it's down to those extra calories that has made him bigger and leaner .

Double cream is the way forward especially on a bulk

1400 calories in this small pot


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## alty83 (Sep 23, 2008)

The fella who runs our gym has always told us to add cream to our shakes! It's not as easy as it sounds necking a protein shake made with It haha but the bloke is responsible for creating a fair few top level physiques so he knows his stuff


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

alty83 said:


> The fella who runs our gym has always told us to add cream to our shakes! It's not as easy as it sounds necking a protein shake made with It haha but the bloke is responsible for creating a fair few top level physiques so he knows his stuff


 I have been adding double cream to my whey shakes I find it so easy to drink I have my whey shake with water though not milk so it really thins it down


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## alty83 (Sep 23, 2008)

Yeh we used to put a full tub of elmlea blue in our shakes and some water, was near enough full to the brim haha! Worked though I'll say that and cheap too

I'd change the thread title though from lean as that it wasn't haha!


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## BioSynth (Sep 17, 2014)

I've been bulking with the addition of Greek yogurt. Def going to add some double cream to the day and see how it goes.


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## anabolik (Aug 19, 2010)

big vin said:


> I have been adding double cream to my whey shakes I find it so easy to drink I have my whey shake with water though not milk so it really thins it down


 Dude just add ff milk instead of the water to your shake. What's the point adding water then adding cream? Plus you get much more extra protein from the milk than you'll get from the water/cream.

I'd take what that guy said with a pinch of salt. If the secret to getting huge and lean was simple gorging on lots of fat then everyone would be huge and ripped!

Myself along with many other have found the results of calorie over-saturation, all it does is make you into a fat fvck.


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

anabolik said:


> Dude just add ff milk instead of the water to your shake. What's the point adding water then adding cream? Plus you get much more extra protein from the milk than you'll get from the water/cream.
> 
> I'd take what that guy said with a pinch of salt. If the secret to getting huge and lean was simple gorging on lots of fat then everyone would be huge and ripped!
> 
> Myself along with many other have found the results of calorie over-saturation, all it does is make you into a fat fvck.


 This is exactly what I said to the guy and his reply was whilst pointing to his body look at me . Seriously they the guy is huge and carried no fat

Everyone at the gym is making comments on how much he has grown and how good he looks . He swears that the only thing he has changed us upping us calories by adding the double cream . I will say he has a ways gad a good muscular physique but the size increase is amazing and he is still lean .


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## alty83 (Sep 23, 2008)

anabolik said:


> Dude just add ff milk instead of the water to your shake. What's the point adding water then adding cream? Plus you get much more extra protein from the milk than you'll get from the water/cream.
> 
> I'd take what that guy said with a pinch of salt. If the secret to getting huge and lean was simple gorging on lots of fat then everyone would be huge and ripped!
> 
> Myself along with many other have found the results of calorie over-saturation, all it does is make you into a fat fvck.


 I've hardly promoted it. I was mearly giving him an answer to his question from personal experience. And you'll find I also said that it left us anything but lean!


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

anabolik said:


> Dude just add ff milk instead of the water to your shake. What's the point adding water then adding cream? Plus you get much more extra protein from the milk than you'll get from the water/cream.
> 
> I'd take what that guy said with a pinch of salt. If the secret to getting huge and lean was simple gorging on lots of fat then everyone would be huge and ripped!
> 
> Myself along with many other have found the results of calorie over-saturation, all it does is make you into a fat fvck.


 He swears by the saturated fat but he states it must come from natural source like cream and not the hydrogenated fat that you get in takeaways and processes food


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## anabolik (Aug 19, 2010)

alty83 said:


> I've hardly promoted it. I was mearly giving him an answer to his question from personal experience. And you'll find I also said that it left us anything but lean!


 Wasn't referring to you mate


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## alty83 (Sep 23, 2008)

anabolik said:


> Wasn't referring to you mate


 Sorry mate, that's tren for you haha


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## anabolik (Aug 19, 2010)

big vin said:


> He swears by the saturated fat but he states it must come from natural source like cream and not the hydrogenated fat that you get in takeaways and processes food


 Not a world away from the GOMAD diet though is it. I've tried that and it packed size on along with lots of fat lol


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

The extra protein in the milk is just not worth it when you getting lots from the whey powder . Having the shake with water makes the shake much easier to drink and out weighs the extra few grammes of protein from the milk


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## alty83 (Sep 23, 2008)

anabolik said:


> Not a world away from the GOMAD diet though is it. I've tried that and it packed size on along with lots of fat lol


 Apparently gives you the worst shits going too


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

anabolik said:


> Not a world away from the GOMAD diet though is it. I've tried that and it packed size on along with lots of fat lol


 The guy is less than 10% body fat

Maybe he is just a genetic freak but what I'm telling you is true


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## anabolik (Aug 19, 2010)

alty83 said:


> Apparently gives you the worst shits going too


 I can attest to that!



big vin said:


> The guy is less than 10% body fat
> 
> Maybe he is just a genetic freak but what I'm telling you is true


 I think you know what needs to be done. You can be the test subject for this experiment, add 500ml double cream to your daily diet for 12 weeks and log your results :lol: would be epic


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## alty83 (Sep 23, 2008)

anabolik said:


> I can attest to that!
> 
> I think you know what needs to be done. You can be the test subject for this experiment, add 500ml double cream to your daily diet for 12 weeks and log your results :lol: would be epic


 I tried it once and managed about 3-4 days before I gave up because I was that bloated and a constant feeling I was gonna be sick it just wasn't worth it


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## musclebubble (Jul 2, 2011)

big vin said:


> Ok there is a guy at our gym who I have not seen for a while as I train different times to him .
> 
> He has always has a good physique quite big and lean anyway i saw him yesterday after not seeing him for a few months . The guy has turned into a monster his muscles have filled out and grown and he looks leaver than ever . I asked him what he has been doing he said he had increased his calories saying he takes in 5-6000 calories a day . I said to him that must mean eating a whole lot of food and hard to achieve he says it's simple he adds double cream to his shakes .
> 
> ...


 It's trash! Not good for you! Gonna make you feel like s**t after a week, and your tummy,breath & skin will tell you too. All this new fad of eat as much saturated fat as you'd like, blah blah...

Just try it out for 2 weeks and see. Also there are other high calorie products you can take. Butter, Peanut butter, nuts, Cheese,Ice cream, etc.. all high in calories. Nothing special about double cream. Also few tablespoons of double cream is not 600 calories. There's about 450 kcal in 100ml of the pot. That's 1/3 of the pot. How many table spoons is that? That's 5 to 6 table spoons for 450 calories. Still very high!


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## gcortese (Jan 12, 2013)

I bet he started hgh in at the same time he started the "double cream"


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## nWo (Mar 25, 2014)

It's fats, and hardly a healthy option. If you're gonna take in that many fats you'd be better served making a shake with the same macronutrients from healthier sources like olive oil or walnut oil - same result, only healthier.


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## Devil (May 31, 2016)

Why is this even a thread

The guy is talking absolute bolloks and is an idiot. If you don't know that I would give up bodybuilding. Doesn't matter how good his physique is.

Lemme just blast test tren eq var hgh with some clen t3 DNP then when I'm inevitably shredded I'll point at myself and say it's the 10 mint kitkats I eat a day.

Normal ones won't work, but mint is the key to being big, shredded and successful like thousands have attempted to no avail over the last 70 years.


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## Sphinkter (Apr 10, 2015)

One things for sure vin his test is definitely not bunk.


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## Frandeman (Mar 24, 2014)

I eat ice-cream everyday an I'm lean as f**k :tongue10:


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## Tricky (Jan 21, 2017)

I was just about to say up your ice cream intake. I would prefer a In if Ben and jerrys a night that some double cream personally if I was chasing an extra 1000kcals


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## Devil (May 31, 2016)

Tricky said:


> I was just about to say up your ice cream intake. I would prefer a In if Ben and jerrys a night that some double cream personally if I was chasing an extra 1000kcals


 I'd be hard pushed to keep it just to 1000 mate with a tub of Icecream in my face!


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## 66983 (May 30, 2016)

Frandeman said:


> I eat ice-cream everyday an I'm lean as f**k :tongue10:


 Nothing to do with the 23 hours 'shaggin' a day, it all counts as cardio you know :thumb


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## Tricky (Jan 21, 2017)

Devil said:


> I'd be hard pushed to keep it just to 1000 mate with a tub of Icecream in my face!


 You wouldn't need to mate the whole tub is 1028 kcals and don't forget the nearly 20 grams of protein lol


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## Frandeman (Mar 24, 2014)

Sparkey said:


> Nothing to do with the 23 hours 'shaggin' a day, it all counts as cardio you know :thumb


 No like that anymore mate

but do you know what a sex marathon is ? I do :tongue10:


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## need2bodybuild (May 11, 2011)

The guy has probably dieted down with aid of lots of drugs and is simply now reverse dieting or full on rebounding from it and has decided to add double cream to his daily diet . Nothing more . There's no magic behind the pot of double cream mate?


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## 66983 (May 30, 2016)

Frandeman said:


> No like that anymore mate
> 
> but do you know what a sex marathon is ? I do :tongue10:


 Of course I do mate, it's when you shove a chocolate bar up a birds sh1t pipe.


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## Lifesizepenguin (Jul 25, 2016)

Double creambolone I suspect


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## IronJohnDoe (Oct 17, 2013)

I would put whole milk in the shaker instead (if I was desperate for bulking and could not reach the extra calories)


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## Eddias (Dec 21, 2015)

Old school Bodybuilders including Arnold use to talk about putting full fat Cream in their diet when bulking, cannot be that healthy though.


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## gregstm (Dec 2, 2012)

I used to use 1 pot of double cream for my coffees on low carb high fat diet everyday and I was lean all the time on 5000 kcal ed


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## Egghead (Sep 8, 2016)

gcortese said:


> I bet he started hgh in at the same time he started the "double cream"


 :lol:


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## Mingster (Mar 25, 2011)

big vin said:


> saying he takes in 5-6000 calories a day . I said to him that must mean eating a whole lot of food and hard to achieve he says it's simple he adds double cream to his shakes .


 I used to add condensed milk to my shakes. And Double Cream to my porridge. Great stuff.


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

Eddias said:


> Old school Bodybuilders including Arnold use to talk about putting full fat Cream in their diet when bulking, cannot be that healthy though.


 It's the hydrogenated fat that is unhealthy the stuff in pies and fast food the body can't break down that fat down , but natural fat like in cream the body can break down


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

Devil said:


> I'd be hard pushed to keep it just to 1000 mate with a tub of Icecream in my face!


 Yes but the ice cream will be full of sugar there is no sugar in the double cream


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## Devil (May 31, 2016)

big vin said:


> Yes but the ice cream will be full of sugar there is no sugar in the double cream


 Doesn't matter if the total calories are the same. It will have literally no difference.

In any event carbs>fat in the majority of circumstances (if anyone disagrees with the blanket top statement, that is).


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

musclebubble said:


> It's trash! Not good for you! Gonna make you feel like s**t after a week, and your tummy,breath & skin will tell you too. All this new fad of eat as much saturated fat as you'd like, blah blah...
> 
> Just try it out for 2 weeks and see. Also there are other high calorie products you can take. Butter, Peanut butter, nuts, Cheese,Ice cream, etc.. all high in calories. Nothing special about double cream. Also few tablespoons of double cream is not 600 calories. There's about 450 kcal in 100ml of the pot. That's 1/3 of the pot. How many table spoons is that? That's 5 to 6 table spoons for 450 calories. Still very high!


 Yes 5-6 is what I class as a few


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

Devil said:


> Why is this even a thread
> 
> The guy is talking absolute bolloks and is an idiot. If you don't know that I would give up bodybuilding. Doesn't matter how good his physique is.
> 
> ...


 He is not shredded but very lean

His muscles have grown very quickly he is natural and and has the best physique in the gym by far .He as added so much size lately everyone in the gym has noticed . He is a friend of mine he has no need to lie to me I asked him what he had been taking to get so much bigger and stay lean he told me the only thing thing he has done is increase his calories and now has between 5-6000 calories a day the extra calorie coming from double cream .


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## Devil (May 31, 2016)

big vin said:


> He is not shredded but very lean
> 
> His muscles have grown very quickly he is natural and and has the best physique in the gym by far .He as added so much size lately everyone in the gym has noticed . He is a friend of mine he has no need to lie to me I asked him what he had been taking to get so much bigger and stay lean he told me the only thing thing he has done is increase his calories and now has between 5-6000 calories a day the extra calorie coming from double cream .


 Yes I'm not denying that. The fact is its from the extra calories (which could be eaten from ANY food, or if for some weird reason he just wanted fats, ANY fat food. A lard of butter if he likes, or oil, or mars bars with the carbs).

The fact it's double cream is so irrelevant I can't believe we are talking about it :lol:


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

He works behind the counter at the gym I see him making his shakes with the double cream . Saw him yesterday adding white wine sauce to his chicken and rice the white wine sauce contains double cream .

The guy is at university studying exercise science and sports nutrition he reads a lot of studies .He knows his stuff .


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## Mingster (Mar 25, 2011)

Devil said:


> Yes I'm not denying that. The fact is its from the extra calories (which could be eaten from ANY food, or if for some weird reason he just wanted fats, ANY fat food. A lard of butter if he likes, or oil, or mars bars with the carbs).
> 
> The fact it's double cream is so irrelevant I can't believe we are talking about it :lol:


 Cream tastes much better than lard and it's always easier to drink your calories than eat them.

Back in the day when there were no protein powders and the like, many bodybuilders would cite evaporated and condensed milk as a staple in their diets.


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## Dutch75 (May 13, 2017)

big vin said:


> He is not shredded but very lean
> 
> His muscles have grown very quickly he is natural and and has the best physique in the gym by far .He as added so much size lately everyone in the gym has noticed . He is a friend of mine he has no need to lie to me I asked him what he had been taking to get so much bigger and stay lean he told me the only thing thing he has done is increase his calories and now has between 5-6000 calories a day the extra calorie coming from double cream .


 Unless he is a true freak of nature he couldn't possibly be natty and lean if he's chowin down 6000 cals daily.


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

Devil said:


> Yes I'm not denying that. The fact is its from the extra calories (which could be eaten from ANY food, or if for some weird reason he just wanted fats, ANY fat food. A lard of butter if he likes, or oil, or mars bars with the carbs).
> 
> The fact it's double cream is so irrelevant I can't believe we are talking about it :lol:


 Yes true I totally agree . His preference is double cream as it's a lot easier to obtain an extra 500 calories from a few tablespoons of double cream than eating the same amount of calories from peanut butter etc .

I struggle to get the extra calories down me when I'm bulking but with the double cream it's so easy add 100ml which is not a lot to your shake there is an extra 550 calories and easy to drink . You would need to add give tablespoons of peanut butter to get the same amount of extra calories and so much harder to get down


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

Dutch75 said:


> Unless he is a true freak of nature he couldn't possibly be natty and lean if he's chowin down 6000 cals daily.


 Seriously pal I know him he is natural he as always has an amazing physique though and he us only 22 years old


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## Devil (May 31, 2016)

Mingster said:


> Cream tastes much better than lard and it's always easier to drink your calories than eat them.
> 
> Back in the day when there were no protein powders and the like, many bodybuilders would cite evaporated and condensed milk as a staple in their diets.


 Yeah I'm not denying that, but the fact is I'm pretty sure he could play around with his macros and eat 4 mars bars a day and have the exact same effects.

Its just bugging me as if some people suggest double cream is some magic potion :lol:



big vin said:


> Yes true I totally agree . His preference is double cream as it's a lot easier to obtain an extra 500 calories from a few tablespoons of double cream than eating the same amount of calories from peanut butter etc .
> 
> I struggle to get the extra calories sign me when I'm bulking but with the double cream it's so easy add 100ml which is not a lot to your shake there is an extra 550 calories and easy to drink . You would need to add give tablespoons of peanut butter to get the same amount of extra calories and so much harder to get down x


 Yeah that's all good mate if that's the easiest and most prefered way you want those cals then bang on.

Just your original post seemed to suggest you thought magic double cream existed which would make you full huge shredded and lean if you drink it ha


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## Sphinkter (Apr 10, 2015)

just waiting on @DLTBB announcing he now uses double cream in his shakes so that the rest of the forum can follow suit, and become fat and extra bloated from the fact none of them run an AI anymore either.


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## DLTBB (Jan 26, 2015)

Sphinkter said:


> just waiting on @DLTBB announcing he now uses double cream in his shakes so that the rest of the forum can follow suit, and become fat and extra bloated from the fact none of them run an AI anymore either.


 Way ahead of you, already tried it, it makes the shake sit in your stomach for a while after drinking it, not my cup of tea.


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

Devil said:


> Yeah I'm not denying that, but the fact is I'm pretty sure he could play around with his macros and eat 4 mars bars a day and have the exact same effects.
> 
> Its just bugging me as if some people suggest double cream is some magic potion :lol:
> 
> ...


 Yes I agree although true my post was meant to be light hearted


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## Mingster (Mar 25, 2011)

Devil said:


> double cream is some magic potion


 No, it certainly isn't, and Vin does like to provoke a response as we all know 

Having said that I used to make my own shakes when I first started out and I lifted the recipe straight from the muscle mags...

Skimmed milk Powder, Horlicks powder, banana, eggs, honey, and evaporated milk. 1000 cals a go, morning, noon, and night. It's a healthy shake regardless and there's plenty of people suggesting the same nowadays too...

http://www.diethealthclub.com/shakes/shakes-for-bodybuilding.html

http://www.healthguidance.org/entry/10502/1/Homemade-Protein-Shakes.html


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## Sphinkter (Apr 10, 2015)

DLTBB said:


> Way ahead of you, already tried it, it makes the shake sit in your stomach for a while after drinking it, not my cup of tea.


 Can imagine - ill save it for double choc fudge cake and apple pie personally.


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

The guy told me he puts the double cream into his post work out shake with his whey . I pulled him up on it I said to him you are taking a fast absorbing protein like whey and then adding double cream and the fat in the cream will slow down the absorption of the whey so what you are doing so you are just contradicting yourself and defeating the object .

He told me it's nonsense and that the fat will slow down the absorption by about one one per cent then went on to quote sone studied to back up what he was saying . He is studying sports nutrition and exercise science at university so he does seem to know what he is talking about .


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## Mingster (Mar 25, 2011)

Leetflex said:


> Look you FKING PLONKERS. Time to have words with you boyos. How long have you c**TS been working out, taking gear and learning about nutrition??? Because I know some of you have a long time... Yet you fkers are believing that FAT builds muscle. This guy is on gear either upped dose or added high insulin... Carbs are far superior to fat, why add fat.. excesses dietary Cal's allow dietary fat to store as fat.. carbs and protein don't do this easily... Fk sake..a huge excess of Cal's won't do s**t once your body is full of glycogen storage from glucose.. no need to eat 1500 cal excess... Double fking cream...When I went on a cycle I used to walk into my gym with a mars bar and coke cola and tell every that is the secret... Because I knew they would question what I was doing so fk em I trolled it lol. Sounds like your mate had the same idea...
> 
> Itell


 Stick an avi up so we can see how it's working for you then.

I have 200g of fat daily on a cut and I do have some muscle too. As long as you have enough protein it's calories that build you muscle. Nothing wrong with fats.

We know this thread has wind up qualities but, like all the best wind ups, it's based on facts too.


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## SkinnyJ (Apr 21, 2012)

big vin said:


> He is not shredded but very lean
> 
> His muscles have grown very quickly he is natural and and has the best physique in the gym by far .He as added so much size lately everyone in the gym has noticed . He is a friend of mine he has no need to lie to me I asked him what he had been taking to get so much bigger and stay lean he told me the only thing thing he has done is increase his calories and now has between 5-6000 calories a day the extra calorie coming from double cream .


 Come on bro, 6000 calories and natty? This guy would just be fat as f**k, not lean?


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Leetflex said:


> Look you FKING PLONKERS. How long have you c**TS been working out, taking gear and learning about nutrition??? Because I know some of you have a long time... Yet you fkers are believing that FAT builds muscle. This guy is on gear either upped dose or added hgh insulin... Carbs are far superior to fat, why add fat.. excesses dietary Cal's allow dietary fat to store as fat.. carbs and protein don't do this easily... Fk sake..a huge excess of Cal's won't do s**t once your body is full of glycogen storage from glucose.. no need to eat 1500 cal excess... Double fking cream...When I went on a cycle I used to walk into my gym with a mars bar and coke cola, and eat/drink them while working out and tell them that is the secret... Because I knew they would question what I was doing so fk em I trolled it lol. Sounds like your mate has the same idea...


 You would benefit from reading this:

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/how-we-get-fat.html/


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

SkinnyJ said:


> Come on bro, 6000 calories and natty? This guy would just be fat as f**k, not lean?


 He tells me he had a very fast metabolism he does lots of martial art he is actually a tae -kwon -doe British champion


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

The whole type of fat and health question is annoyingly complicated and unclear.

About the only thing everyone would agree on is that trans-fats (hydrogenated fat) is bad for you and the optimal amount to consume is zero.

There are some who take the view that you can eat as much saturated fat as you want with no health consequences but this is a minority view. Anyone who looks at the research in this area and thinks there is a simple clear-cut answer is either only looking at papers to support their view, or doesn't understand what they're reading.

Would I personally consume large amounts of double cream? No.

Here is one summary of fat related research if anyone wants to do some reading:

http://jandonline.org/article/S2212-2672(13)01672-9/pdf


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Leetflex said:


> Yes and it is what I said. Why would I benefit from it.?
> 
> "Carbs don't make you fat via direct conversion and storage to fat; but excess carbs can still make you fat by blunting out the normal daily fat oxidation so that all of the fat you're eating is stored. Keep Which is why a 500 cal surplus of fat and a 500 cal surplus of carbs can both make you fat; they just do it for different reasons through different mechanisms. The 500 calories of excess fat is simply stored; the excess 500 calories of carbs ensure that all the fat you're eating is stored because carb oxidation goes up and fat oxidation goes down. Got it? If not, re-read this paragraph until it sinks in."
> 
> so if you eat 75g of fat a day your potential for fat storage is lower....


 Read the full article, and keep reading it until you've understood it...

(A surplus will make you fat irrespective of macro split.)

It is also nonsense to talk about carbs building muscle but fat not doing so. As has been said, calories are what matter. Where carb/fat split can have an effect on muscle gain is in terms of how it affects gym performance, but this can vary significantly between individuals.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Leetflex said:


> No. When the body is starving for fat intake it will increase fat storage from carbs. But as long as the fat intake is adequate it won't do this, say 75g fat/day. If you overeat with 75g fat day that is the potential storage, overeat with 200g fat day then there is more potential for fat storage.
> 
> The statement of macro intake not mattering is in the context that carbs can make fat store. But IT DOES matter in the situation I outlined. If it wasn't in this context then the guy is wrong.
> 
> If you want me to change my opinion then show a study with a large standardised cal excess, same cal intake, on low fat Vs high fat. Because I'm sure the high fat will store more fat tissue if the cal intake is high enough not to max out potential fat storage from the low fat group.


 You're the one making the claim so you post the evidence to prove it. I've already posted a link from one of the most respected experts in the field explaining why you're wrong.

(I don't care what you do personally BTW - but posted in case it helps you, and so others aren't mislead.)


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## gregstm (Dec 2, 2012)

Leetflex said:


> No. When the body is starving for fat intake it will increase fat storage from carbs. But as long as the fat intake is adequate it won't do this, say 75g fat/day. If you overeat with 75g fat day that is the potential storage, overeat with 200g fat day then there is more potential for fat storage provided Cal's are high enough not to max out fat storage on the 75g fat intake.
> 
> The statement of macro intake not mattering is in the context that carbs can make fat store. But IT DOES matter in the situation I outlined. If it wasn't in this context then the guy is wrong.
> 
> If you want me to change my opinion then show a study with a large standardised cal excess, on low fat Vs high fat. Because I'm sure the high fat will store more fat tissue if the cal intake is high enough not to max out potential fat storage from the low fat group.


 You can lose fat even on high fat diet as long as you carbs are low, I used to bulking on 500g fats a day with 200g of prot and 80g of carbs and I was still quite lean and no water bloat, when I started cut I reduced fat to 300g a day and increased prot to 250g and it worked very well.


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## Dutch75 (May 13, 2017)

Mingster said:


> No, it certainly isn't, and Vin does like to provoke a response as we all know
> 
> Having said that I used to make my own shakes when I first started out and I lifted the recipe straight from the muscle mags...
> 
> ...


 Read Arnold's education of a bodybuilder when I was 15 and used to drink the shakes recommended for mass building made up of milk, skimmed milk powder, eggs and ice cream  Those on top of all the additional food recommend was probably in the 5-6000 cal range and certainly worked for a while as I was skinny as fcuk and young with high metabolism but if I hadda kept that up into my twenties I would have turned into pure lard!


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## Devil (May 31, 2016)

Why has all of @Leetflex posts been deleted?

Was quite intrigued as to the debate ongoing @Ultrasonic


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## Mingster (Mar 25, 2011)

Dutch75 said:


> if I hadda kept that up into my twenties I would have turned into pure lard!


 Why? What difference does being in your 20's make?

I'm in my 50's and I'm not pure lard.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Devil said:


> Why has all of @Leetflex posts been deleted?
> 
> Was quite intrigued as to the debate ongoing @Ultrasonic


 I would assume that Leetflex deleted them.

I'll just add a couple of thoughts I'd been mulling over...

When someone is glycogen depleted during a cut and then refeeds in excess of their current maintenance I believe it does makes sense to do so whilst keeping fat as low as possible. This is for two reasons: maximising the increase in leptin and minimising fat gain. This is because in this state excess carbs will be stored as glycogen.

This is different to a prolonged calorie excess when 'bulking' where I believe glycogen levels will easily be refilled from one day to the next unless someone is going very low carb. At the point glycogen stores are full the body has nowhere else to store excess energy than fat, so this is what happens. This is slight speculation on my part but what I know is that the consensus amongst all the evidence based coaches I trust is that there is nothing magical you can do by manipulating macros to minimise fat gain, but rather it is the size of any calorie excess that is the factor to focus on. I'm thinking of likes of Lyle McDonald, Alan Aragon and Eric Helms here.


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## Devil (May 31, 2016)

Ultrasonic said:


> nothing magical you can do by manipulating macros to minimise fat gain, but rather it is the size of any calorie excess that is the factor to focus on. I'm thinking of likes of Lyle McDonald, Alan Aragon and Eric Helms here.


 This has always been my understanding of it as well.

Thanks for the info.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

I should perhaps have added that there are other reasons to consider different macro splits to be better than others for an individual, but I don't believe controlling fat gain is one of them.

I'm thinking of gym performance, bloating, ability to eat enough calories (where whole cream fits in), how enjoyable a diet is and, for naturals, the impact on testosterone levels.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Leetflex said:


> http://www.conazucar.com/pdf/informes/sobrepeso/Fat-and-carbohydrate-overfeeding-in humans.pdf


 That paper looks interesting and I'll give it a read tomorrow.


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## Dutch75 (May 13, 2017)

Mingster said:


> Why? What difference does being in your 20's make?
> 
> I'm in my 50's and I'm not pure lard.


 Speaking from my own experience I could get away with eating much more then. In fact I had to struggle to keep my weight up. In my early 40's now and totally different ball game. Really have to watch what I eat now and struggle to loose weight.


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## Mingster (Mar 25, 2011)

Dutch75 said:


> Speaking from my own experience I could get away with eating much more then. In fact I had to struggle to keep my weight up. In my early 40's now and totally different ball game. Really have to watch what I eat now and struggle to loose weight.


 That's a shame. I've never had an issue with watching what I eat. In fact I really struggle to put weight on tbh.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

@Leetflex why on earth do you keep deleting things??? I've just come back to this thread after having read your paper to comment and see you've now deleted your last post as well!

For the benefit of others...

The main summary is that if any effect does exist (which can be debated) that it is not large enough that anyone should be basing macronutrient decisions on as far as I'm concerned. I'll discuss it a little myself below, but the following brief summary of the posted study and one other related one is a quick and accessible read:

http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.co.uk/2014/04/fat-vs-carbohydrate-overeating-which.html

The full version of the paper that Leetlex posted no longer seems to be available at the link but I thankfully downloaded it last night. The abstract is here. The study involved feeding 14 people a huge calorie excess (50% above maintenance) from either all carbs or all fats for a two week period, in a cross-over design so the same people did both diets a month apart. The study deliberately excluded 'highly trained individuals', with the 'lean' group having about 21% body fat, so not the most relevant to those here likely to be worrying about macros. The participants also had base diets that were pretty high fat: ~35% of total calories.

Over the course of the two-week overfeeding there were no significant differences seen in fat mass gain between the diets. The researchers had however expected this given the short duration. The experiment included the participants spending time in a metabolic chamber, so that lots of parameters could be measured, including energy expenditure. What they found was that energy expenditure went up with carb overfeeding but not not fat overfeeding, which therefore lead to greater energy (assumed fat) storage in the high carb group. If we assume the difference they saw is generally applicable we can run some number to show it still isn't a big deal, as follows:

I'll ignore initial effects. At the end of the 14 days the high carb group was storing 91% of the excess vs 83% for the high fat group (on average). Let's say someone was eating 300 kcal more per day than they needed (i.e. in excess of activity, muscle building etc*): on a high carb diet that would be 249 kcal stored vs 273 kcal for a high fat diet. That's a difference of a whopping 24 kcal per day (or about 10% of the excess). I would suggest that people would be better off focusing on sorting out the other 90%, which they'd do by controlling total calories better.

*Note that this is not the same as what many would refer to as their excess over maintenance, but rather is a smaller figure.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Dutch75 said:


> Speaking from my own experience I could get away with eating much more then. In fact I had to struggle to keep my weight up. In my early 40's now and totally different ball game. Really have to watch what I eat now and struggle to loose weight.


 That's about needing fewer calories of course, rather than an issue specifically with eating too much fat.

I'll wager that a major part of this is that you're a lot less active now generally than you were in your twenties, although there are other factors.

One of the things that makes some more prone to getting fat than others is how much their bodies adapt to overfeeding (mostly by sub-consciously increasing non-exercise activity). One thing I've never heard discussed is whether this might vary with age for an individual, but if it does this could be another factor here.

Ultimately though it all still boils down to people controlling calorie intake to control fat gain, no matter how old they are.


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## musclebubble (Jul 2, 2011)

Why has this stupid thread gone for 3 pages thus far?

BTW has anyone tried Sphinx or ROHM double cream xxx 400, yet? Heard some rave reviews about it. Stronger than Tren apparently!


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## Mully (Jul 1, 2016)

big vin said:


> He is studying sports nutrition and exercise science at university so he does seem to know what he is talking about .


 Tbf thats what the thicko's study at uni


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

Maybe but I tell you the guy has one of the best physiques I have ever seen


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## Jordan08 (Feb 17, 2014)

Seems like that Guy follows GH15 by heart


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## Pancake' (Aug 30, 2012)

No one gets HUGE and lean on any sort of food. thread equivalent of kali muscle claiming tuna raman and noodles got him his physique.


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

I nipped into the gym that he works in today . I was chatting to him and he pulled out a bunch of bananas out his bag he ate six all once


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## anabolik (Aug 19, 2010)

big vin said:


> I nipped into the gym that he works in today . I was chatting to him and he pulled out a bunch of bananas out his back he ate six all once


 He should pour his double cream over the bananas. 2 birds 1 stone.


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## Devil (May 31, 2016)

big vin said:


> I nipped into the gym that he works in today . I was chatting to him and he pulled out a bunch of bananas out his back he ate six all once


 Literally the worst troll


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

Devil said:


> Literally the worst troll


 I have been on this forum for 7 years and post regular I have never trolled and never will . I'm just staying the truth about this guy but if that makes me a troll so be it .

By the way wtf is a troll ?


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## Devil (May 31, 2016)

big vin said:


> I have been on this forum for 7 years and post regular I have never trolled and never will . I'm just staying the truth about this guy but if that makes me a troll so be it .
> 
> By the way wtf is a troll ?


 So you're having a conversation and in the middle out of nowhere he pulls a pack of SIX bananas, halts the convo whilst you stand there and watch him eat for 5 mins, then continue?

He's fvcking trolling you hard mate i would switch gyms


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

Devil said:


> So you're having a conversation and in the middle out of nowhere he pulls a pack of SIX bananas, halts the convo whilst you stand there and watch him eat for 5 mins, then continue?
> 
> He's fvcking trolling you hard mate i would switch gyms


 He works at a gym which I sometimes go to I went in yesterday and sat down chatting to him for about five minutes he then went to his bag and pulled out a bunch of bananas out of his bag. He then pulled one off the bunch and ate it he then pulled of all the others and ate them all as we was chatting . I said wow six bananas that's a lot of bananas you just ate he said yes he has a heavy back session coming up later so he was loading up on carbs.

Why should I switch gyms because some guy who has the best and biggest physique I have ever seen is eating six bananas . They guy knows what he is doing .

So like I said why should I switch gyms and how is someone eating bananas trolling me .

You are a very strange guy


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## TinTin10 (Nov 22, 2016)

Devil said:


> So you're having a conversation and in the middle out of nowhere he pulls a pack of SIX bananas, halts the convo whilst you stand there and watch him eat for 5 mins, then continue?
> 
> He's fvcking trolling you hard mate i would switch gyms


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## Devil (May 31, 2016)

TinTin10 said:


> View attachment 144102


 Lmao


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

So this thread is now essentially about the fact that a big guy eats a lot of food (calories).


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## Jack of blades (Apr 2, 2017)

big vin said:


> Ok there is a guy at our gym who I have not seen for a while as I train different times to him .
> 
> He has always has a good physique quite big and lean anyway i saw him yesterday after not seeing him for a few months . The guy has turned into a monster his muscles have filled out and grown and he looks leaver than ever . I asked him what he has been doing he said he had increased his calories saying he takes in 5-6000 calories a day . I said to him that must mean eating a whole lot of food and hard to achieve he says it's simple he adds double cream to his shakes .
> 
> ...


 He's says he's gotten leaner because of extra calories. Weird


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## Jack of blades (Apr 2, 2017)

Devil said:


> Why is this even a thread
> 
> The guy is talking absolute bolloks and is an idiot. If you don't know that I would give up bodybuilding. Doesn't matter how good his physique is.
> 
> ...


 I heard the mint ones are the best ones for putting on muscle aswell. I'm eating normal ones at the moment. Is it worth me switching to mint ones?


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## Devil (May 31, 2016)

Jack of blades said:


> I heard the mint ones are the best ones for putting on muscle aswell. I'm eating normal ones at the moment. Is it worth me switching to mint ones?


 100% switch otherwise you're wasting your time.

Big lean full and shredded easily with the mint ones (smothered in cream) - no drugs needed!


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## Jack of blades (Apr 2, 2017)

Devil said:


> 100% switch otherwise you're wasting your time.
> 
> Big lean full and shredded easily with the mint ones (smothered in cream) - no drugs needed!


 No way going asda right now and spend my entire wage on mint kit cat's


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

Jack of blades said:


> He's says he's gotten leaner because of extra calories. Weird





Jack of blades said:


> He has always been lean but he is just huge now buy just as lean


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

Look at the end of the day im not making this up and neither is he , all I am saying is had one of he most impressive physiques I have ever seen and everyone at the gym thinks the same so obviously it works for him


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

big vin said:


> Look at the end of the day im not making this up and neither is he , all I am saying is had one of he most impressive physiques I have ever seen and everyone at the gym thinks the same so obviously it works for him


 I believe you but the point is he isn't doing anything magical in terms of his diet to look the way he does.


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## Devil (May 31, 2016)

Ok can confirm I drank 5 itres of double cream in my shake and have consumed 72626 bananas (all mid conversation with someone ofc)

I'm now Olympia ready


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

Ultrasonic said:


> I believe you but the point is he isn't doing anything magical in terms of his diet to look the way he does.


 I disagree , as his physique had transformed greatly in the last few months and he has stated that a km he has done differently is alter his diet. Maybe it's not specifically the double cream and bananas but just yes fact he has greatly increased his intake of calories .


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

big vin said:


> I disagree , as his physique had transformed greatly in the last few months and he has stated that a km he has done differently is alter his diet. Maybe it's not specifically the double cream and bananas but* just yes fact he has greatly increased his intake of calories .*


 Precisely my point, so no disagreement  .

(Although I think we'd both be naive to rule out PEDs as well if it really is a big change.)


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## TinTin10 (Nov 22, 2016)

Ultrasonic said:


> Precisely my point, so no disagreement  .
> 
> (Although I think we'd both be naive to rule out PEDs as well if it really is a big change.)


 How dairy......


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## BioSynth (Sep 17, 2014)

This thread is brilliant. It's like "my boyfriend has has this new friend but he's definitely not cheating".

Big man crush in denial about being lied to about drug use. Can definitely vouch that lean gains don't happen that quickly on massive dirty calorie bulk without drug use. Or as the wife has now branded it "plumping".


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