# How can i get my chest to grow?



## tomass1342 (Nov 12, 2009)

Hi,

Im 20, 6.2" 13stone, 12-13% Bf, been trying to gain weight!

Ive been training for around 2 years now, completely natural.

Bench 110kg 1RM

Deadlift 140kg 1RM

I train 4-5 days a week, normal split routine and eat well.

Im having real trouble getting my chest to grow, it out of proprtion to everything else but only in terms of size, strength wise, its pretty good.

Usual Routine for chest =

Incline smith or bench 4 x 6-10

incline smith or bench 4 x 8-12

Dips 3 x 12

Incline flies 3 x 12

sometimes some cable flies or close grips press's or machine press's.

once a week usualy.

What can i do???

Please help as this is really anoying me now

Thanks everyone. :beer:


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## Outtapped (Dec 10, 2012)

now if you are 13 stone and 12% bf im guessing you chest isnt exactly small but what i would suggest is ditch the smith machine for free weight excercises, either barbell press or dumbell press.

try......

4 sets of 10 reps: Barbell bench press Flat

4 sets of 10 reps: incline dumbell press

4 sets of 10 reps: decline " "

How is your diet? remember the body needs food to grow


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## MT29 (Oct 1, 2009)

Just make sure every time you train your chest, exercise the upper,lower,inner and outer pectorals. Train your abs more and this might help your chest look more toned?


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## Prodiver (Nov 14, 2008)

We've been here before...

Incline presses are shoulder exercises, not chest.

Decline presses and strict cable crosses exercise the pecs best.

You cannot ecercise any particular part of the pecs.


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## hulk1 (Dec 1, 2009)

seems your only 20 years old you could probably hit chest twice a week mate say a monday and a thursday, i'd put some flat bench press and dumbell press in your routine as you only mentioned incline and dips which will mainly hit the upper and lower pecs..close grip tends to focus more on your try triceps as your hands are too close to expand the fibres in your chest,plus id switch from cable flies to dumbell flies,the more free weights the better as you use more muscle fibres trying to keep control and balance of the weight..hope this helps mate.


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## jonnybinthemix (Nov 21, 2009)

The following works for me:

Flat DB Press - 5 x 10

Slight Incline DB Press - 2 x 10

Decline DB Press - 3 x 10

Cable Upercuts - 3 x 20

Pec Dec - 3 x 20

That works well for me and gives me a great chest burn.


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## tomass1342 (Nov 12, 2009)

cheers,

well its not that small but just out of proportion, and is my worst body part, compared to arms and back. My diet is good, everything else grows fairly consistently just not chest :cursing:

Meal Food Protein Carbs

1 whey protein + ready oats or cereal 50 100

2 chicken sandwhiches 35 80

3 weight gainer 50 90

4 tuna/chicken/fish + Rice/potato/bread 40 50

5 tuna/chicken/fish + Rice/potato/bread 40 50

6 whey shake 50 0

Supps = creatine, multi vit, phd v-max pump


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## Prodiver (Nov 14, 2008)

The lower pecs are not below the upper pecs - they're actually behind them.

Different exercises do not put more stress on different parts of the pecs.


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## frowningbudda (Dec 16, 2008)

Weighted dips

Decline press/flyes

Cables

Jobs a good'un 

Edit

Also I found that a slightly lower angle when pressing works

more of the chest


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## jonnybinthemix (Nov 21, 2009)

Prodiver said:


> The lower pecs are not below the upper pecs - they're actually behind them.
> 
> Different exercises do not put more stress on different parts of the pecs.


Don't mean to hijack OP's thread, but please can you explain this a little more mate?

Ive always been told that decline hits the bottom, flat the middle and incline the top.... As well as pec dec hitting the insides and flys the outsides.

Is this an old rumour or something or is there actually any truth in it?


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## tomass1342 (Nov 12, 2009)

i always hear that Bench is always the best for size, is this true?

Im gonna try this i think

Bench flat 4 x 6

DB flat 4 x 10

dips 3 x 12

flies flat 3 x 12

Twice a week? mon and thurs

What you think?


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## Guest (Dec 13, 2009)

hulk1 said:


> *seems your only 20 years old you could probably hit chest twice a week mate say a monday and a thursday*, i'd put some flat bench press and dumbell press in your routine as you only mentioned incline and dips which will mainly hit the upper and lower pecs..close grip tends to focus more on your try triceps as your hands are too close to expand the fibres in your chest,plus id switch from cable flies to dumbell flies,the more free weights the better as you use more muscle fibres trying to keep control and balance of the weight..hope this helps mate.


Whats his age got to do with anything? :confused1:


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## godsgifttoearth (Jul 28, 2009)

ok dude, if you're 13stone at 6ft you need to seriously rethink everything you've been doing. 2yrs is a long time to train to achieve what you have done.

what does your entire routine look like, also im guessing your diet will likely suck.

best way to add size to any part of the body. is to pick a compound move that challenges the area. do 4 sets of using whatever reps you want, and leave it. if you get your 4 by whatever sets, add weight. so take your bench plain simple bench press. do 4sets. go home home and eat and sleep. next week add 2.5kg to it. do 4sets. add 20kg to the bench for the 4sets at the same reps, and you will have a significantly bigger chest, aswell as delts and triceps.


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## Prodiver (Nov 14, 2008)

jonnybinthemix said:


> Don't mean to hijack OP's thread, but please can you explain this a little more mate?
> 
> Ive always been told that decline hits the bottom, flat the middle and incline the top.... As well as pec dec hitting the insides and flys the outsides.
> 
> Is this an old rumour or something or is there actually any truth in it?


Yes - it's old unscientific bodybuilding bollox.

A paper cited on here a while back showed that the pectoralis major muscles and the pectoralis minor muscles which are behind them contract as one. You cannot contract the lower part of your pecs or the upper part more.

People think they're stressing the pecs by inclines because of the way the tendons are inserted, but it's easy to show that the greater the incline the less the pecs do, and at greater than about 60º the pecs are actually expanding, bot contracting, so they cannot be lifting the weight, which the delts are doing.

The pec is designed to bring your upper arm from outsretched up at 45º down across your torso till your hands are at your nuts. Declines and cable crosses achieve this movement exactly.


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## Rick89 (Feb 27, 2009)

Simple answers..

1-stop [email protected] around with iso exercise (cables, flies etc)

2-focus on bench,inc,dips only, heavy working up to 3-5reps


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## Rick89 (Feb 27, 2009)

godsgifttoearth said:


> ok dude, if you're 13stone at 6ft you need to seriously rethink everything you've been doing. 2yrs is a long time to train to achieve what you have done.
> 
> what does your entire routine look like, also im guessing your diet will likely suck.
> 
> best way to add size to any part of the body. is to pick a compound move that challenges the area. do 4 sets of using whatever reps you want, and leave it. if you get your 4 by whatever sets, add weight. so take your bench plain simple bench press. do 4sets. go home home and eat and sleep. next week add 2.5kg to it. do 4sets. add 20kg to the bench for the 4sets at the same reps, and you will have a significantly bigger chest, aswell as delts and triceps.


good post, spot on advice IMO


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## Prodiver (Nov 14, 2008)

tomass1342 said:


> i always hear that Bench is always the best for size, is this true?...
> 
> Twice a week? mon and thurs
> 
> What you think?


Flat benching is excellent for all-round upper body mass and thickness, but puts a lot of strain on your shoulders and arms.

Twice a week for pecs is prob too much for you.

Work them with 5 sets of 3 exercises once a week and allow a week for growth.

3 warm up sets and 3 intense working sets of 10-12 reps of decline press (barbell or dumbell), strict cable crosses and dips (weighted if poss).


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## tomass1342 (Nov 12, 2009)

godsgifttoearth said:


> ok dude, if you're 13stone at 6ft you need to seriously rethink everything you've been doing. 2yrs is a long time to train to achieve what you have done.
> 
> what does your entire routine look like, also im guessing your diet will likely suck.
> 
> best way to add size to any part of the body. is to pick a compound move that challenges the area. do 4 sets of using whatever reps you want, and leave it. if you get your 4 by whatever sets, add weight. so take your bench plain simple bench press. do 4sets. go home home and eat and sleep. next week add 2.5kg to it. do 4sets. add 20kg to the bench for the 4sets at the same reps, and you will have a significantly bigger chest, aswell as delts and triceps.


Read the whole post then tell me my diet sucks? and remember im completely natural.

Thanks for reading but no need to jump to conclusions.


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## Rick89 (Feb 27, 2009)

tomass1342 said:


> Read the whole post then tell me my diet sucks? and remember im completely natural.
> 
> Thanks for reading but no need to jump to conclusions.


Theres no diet example on the original post, get one up so people can have a look, critique, advise etc.


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## tomass1342 (Nov 12, 2009)

tomass1342 said:


> cheers,
> 
> well its not that small but just out of proportion, and is my worst body part, compared to arms and back. My diet is good, everything else grows fairly consistently just not chest :cursing:
> 
> ...


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## Rick89 (Feb 27, 2009)

Get some red meat in there mate, also some fats(olive oil, udos, salmon etc), also mate if your not getting stronger on chest maybe its time to up overall calories.

Only an idea, im no expert.


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## tomass1342 (Nov 12, 2009)

usualy train

mon - chest abs

tues - legs or back or off

Wed - legs or back or off

thur - shoulders abs

fri - arms


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## Rick89 (Feb 27, 2009)

Alos add some fruit in diet.


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## Prodiver (Nov 14, 2008)

tomass1342 said:


> Read the whole post then tell me my diet sucks? and remember im completely natural.
> 
> Thanks for reading but no need to jump to conclusions.


13 stone is nearly 83 kg, so you need 2 x 83 gms = 166 grams protein a day minimum - not grams of powder, but of actual protein from food and from shakes if necessary.

Eat meat, eggs, fish, cheese, full milk, nuts for protein.

Then eat sufficient fats and oils - don't worry how much but don't gorge on them. You'll get some with your protein foods, but eat oive oil - salad dressings and mayo are good - and peanut butter. Cream occasionally is fine.

Then eat just enough carbs for ample energy for intense workouts, and to prevent any of your protein being used for energy.

If you start to put on bodyfat, back off the carbs a bit - not the fats - and if you lack energy, up the carbs a bit.

No need to work out any amounts in grams or cals except your protein needs.

Weight gainers are worthless - mostly carbs which you don't need so much of.


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## tomass1342 (Nov 12, 2009)

i use milk for breakfast and also have egg omelettes cooked in olive oil, also the occasional subway club. Red meat would be good just the cost that stops me!


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## tomass1342 (Nov 12, 2009)

surely my diet isnt the issue (although i accept it needs work), if everything else is growing


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## Rick89 (Feb 27, 2009)

tomass1342 said:


> usualy train
> 
> mon - chest abs
> 
> ...


So when do you train legs or back???? Tues or wed??

I would peronally just focus on a 3 day split of push, pull, legs.

Push- focusing on heavy bench/incline/dips/CGB/military

Pull-deadlift, chins, curls.

Legs- squats, squats and more squats

I have been using this routine for a while now with great success, strenngth and growth coming on faster than ever.


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## ba baracuss (Apr 26, 2004)

The key to chest growth IMO is correct form, which few people have.

If you go heavy, you will likely be using a lot of delt, tricep, lat instead of/as well as pecs.

You need to make sure your shoulders are flat on the bench and squeeze your shoulder blades together when you lift. This will likely mean dropping the weight back in order to train the muscle instead of the ego.

I'm sure the diet advice will help too.


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## Rick89 (Feb 27, 2009)

Prodiver said:


> 13 stone is nearly 83 kg, so you need 2 x 83 gms = 166 grams protein a day minimum - not grams of powder, but of actual protein from food and from shakes if necessary.
> 
> Eat meat, eggs, fish, cheese, full milk, nuts for protein.
> 
> ...


spot on advice, reps


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## Outtapped (Dec 10, 2012)

ba baracuss said:


> The key to chest growth IMO is correct form, which few people have.
> 
> If you go heavy, you will likely be using a lot of delt, tricep, lat instead of/as well as pecs.
> 
> ...


ditto the above, i got my best gains from dropping the weight a bit and focusing on technique. if the weight is too high you end up using other muscles to help push and as for diet you haven't really given much detail so its hard to say from that but i know that people who know their diets well and have good diets will post every tiny bit of detail


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## tomass1342 (Nov 12, 2009)

thanks for all the advice everyone, great stuff. Has anyone tried implants? maybe that would be a solution?


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## pea head (May 28, 2008)

tomass1342 said:


> thanks for all the advice everyone, great stuff. Has anyone tried implants? maybe that would be a solution?


Questions like that will get you a slap....guys giving decent advice and you come out with that??

FFS....get a grip...tell me you are taking the p1ss.?


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## tomass1342 (Nov 12, 2009)

of course im joking


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## godsgifttoearth (Jul 28, 2009)

tomass1342 said:


> Read the whole post then tell me my diet sucks? and remember im completely natural.
> 
> Thanks for reading but no need to jump to conclusions.


ok i read your diet. i still think it sucks. looks really calorie deficient, unless you're eating kg's of rice per day.

i dont care if your all natural, 13stone at over six feet tall is terrible after 2yrs of training. you also have lifts that are really unimpressive after 2yrs of training. you have a bench press that is only 30kg off your deadlift max. this is how i know the training isnt up to scratch.

my original statement stands. you need a serious rethink about your entire training philosophy as its obviously not working for you.


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## tomass1342 (Nov 12, 2009)

why are you being an ****hole? im just looking for advice or help not to be put down. what do you do? e.g diet training.


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## tomass1342 (Nov 12, 2009)

you dont need to point out that my chest is laggin, thats the whole point of this thread?


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## BLUTOS (Mar 5, 2005)

Why not try dumbell pullovers, breathing squats etc, check out some old time weight lifting sites, years ago there were loads of routines that focused on enlarging rib cage etc,


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## godsgifttoearth (Jul 28, 2009)

tomass1342 said:


> you dont need to point out that my chest is laggin, thats the whole point of this thread?


your chest ISNT LAGGING thats the problem. your deadlift should be considerably higher than your bench.

im not meaning to be an ****, but you keep spouting your weight and height and saying im all natural. its coming accross to me, that you dont actually realise that even by natural standards at your height. you should be weighing a lot more.

so far it didnt come accross that you actually think you have any problem with your training set up. i apologise if i sound like im being overly harsh or infact a dick. but i think its better if you ignore everything you thought you knew and you thought was working and start fresh with a new training concept.

what do i do?

diet wise.

3 meals of 'real' food. usually chicken/fish/meat with sweet potato, broccoli etc. on top of that 4 shakes inbetween. 500mls milkshake with 50grams protein.

my diet, like yours should be better.

training wise. i used to train with a typical BB'er training style consisting of ridiculous volume and too many isolation moves. i got no where for a long time and ended up stuck around the 165lbs @ 5'6 for a long time. started messing with steroids thinking i had hit some kind of genetic limit. i would gain some weight, then watch it shrink back away. then i met a man that sorted out my training philosphy and before my injury i was about 86kg, i've dropped back to about 82-83kg now.

i've modified his original training schedule that he had im place to reduce the overall volume, as it was too much for me to do whilst playing a full season. atm i do.

push/pull ABA BAB on non consecutive days, with atleast 2 consecutive days off.

push

front squat

bench

push press

pull

underhand pulldown

row

deadlift

i use 3 sets of 85% 1 rm. about 5-6reps. i use a slow controlled cadence, usually about 2-3secs. with a set up like this, you gain massive amounts of strength very quickly. and the subsequent size increases that go along with it.

its the bread and butter of how to add size all over your body. isolations have their place. but its not when you're trying to grow all over at any speed.

i cannot reccommend this program enough.

http://www.defrancostraining.com/articles/38-articles/60-westside-for-skinny-bastards-part1.html


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## frowningbudda (Dec 16, 2008)

"The Bench Press

We start with the mind. To say that concentration is important for lifting success and to state that you must apply full, intensive mental effort to lift respectable weights is a gross understatement. Let me embed, for all time to come, the following in your mind: Your mind is your master!"

Good good blog : Blog

All credit goes to whoever posted this a few months ago, I think it was Blutos or Big - I cant remember, sorry.


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## Outtapped (Dec 10, 2012)

godsgifttoearth said:


> your chest ISNT LAGGING thats the problem. your deadlift should be considerably higher than your bench.
> 
> im not meaning to be an ****, but you keep spouting your weight and height and saying im all natural. its coming accross to me, that you dont actually realise that even by natural standards at your height. you should be weighing a lot more.
> 
> ...


i think why he was being a little harsh to you was because you said "read my diet and then tell me it sucks" so he did, because it does. clouded by dillusions you seem to think this is a good diet when in fact if needs some serious tweaking, IMO if you perfect this, stick to compound excercises and personally i would go for 8-10 reps (70% of 1rm) at a slow and controlled pace once a week you should see some considerable gains. We all have our opinions and this is a forum to place them. I understand some people can jump to a lot of conclusions and sound ahrsh but in this thread i personally don't think they have.


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## glen danbury (May 23, 2006)

In terms of the chest often people have muscular imbalances which means that you will shift the workload to other muscles when performing an exercise - typically most people will be tight in the pec minor which will pull the shoulders forward and when benching the delts will take over the workload rather than the chest

Often I would state top stretch out the pec minor and when benching ensure you retract and depress your shoulder blades throughout the movement and fix it here throughout

Pro diver - whilst the pec minor and pec major are two different muscles the pec minor doesn't make up the 'upper chest' this is still the pec major but happens to be the clavicular head rather than the sternal head - whilst both insert into the same tendon on the arm there origins are different (clavicle and sternum respectively) and as such the orientation of the fibres of each will differ as because of this - to state that both do the same action is somewhat non sensical as why have different origins if its meant to do the same thing?

Clearly a different line of orientation will be for pulling in a different direction

The pec minor will clearly not be stimulated by incline presses etc as that's not its job - look at any text book and the pec minor will Elevates ribs if scapula fixed, protracts scapula (assists serratus ant) which is totally different from the job of the pec major (Clavicular head:flexes and adducts arm. Sternal head: adducts and med rotates arm)


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## Prodiver (Nov 14, 2008)

glen danbury said:


> In terms of the chest often people have muscular imbalances which means that you will shift the workload to other muscles when performing an exercise - typically most people will be tight in the pec minor which will pull the shoulders forward and when benching the delts will take over the workload rather than the chest
> 
> Often I would state top stretch out the pec minor and when benching ensure you retract and depress your shoulder blades throughout the movement and fix it here throughout
> 
> ...


Yes - please note I have always distinguished the pec minor and the pec major and stated they are not the upper and lower pecs.

Also I have never said they have the same action.

I only quoted the cited paper where the researchers concluded that both major and minor pec muscles are brought into play as much as possible under stimulus, and that inclines, for instance, do not stress more the upper pec area.


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## tomass1342 (Nov 12, 2009)

ok ok, so my diet sucks.... what can i do better? and how will this help bring up chest, rather than everything else. the problem isnt my whole body, which is growing consistantly, its just my chest.


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## Guest (Dec 14, 2009)

Last two posts sound all a bit complicated! The bottomline is you prob just need a good bit of hard work and persistence in co-ordination with a decent diet!


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## Prodiver (Nov 14, 2008)

tomass1342 said:


> ok ok, so my diet sucks.... what can i do better? and how will this help bring up chest, rather than everything else. the problem isnt my whole body, which is growing consistantly, its just my chest.


Simply make sure above all that you eat enough protein, and do declines, cable crosses and dips as above.


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## phys sam (Jan 11, 2008)

Is it really lagging compared to the rest of your body? You're judging on aesthetics right?

what I'm saying is....get your tits out and let someone who's into competing tell you whether you're right.

You may have a severe case of body dysmorphia?

Prodiver can you not get a link to that paper and previous discussion. I reckon you must be knackered from keep having to repeat yourself


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## tomass1342 (Nov 12, 2009)

nah, other people e.g my gf and brother have commented the my chest isnt as good as the rest, from an aesthetic point of view. I asked a guy from my gym, the current over 50's bb champion and he advised more incline?


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## WRT (May 21, 2009)

hulk1 said:


> seems your only 20 years old you could probably hit chest twice a week mate say a monday and a thursday,


Bollocks, hit your chest hard once per week and do what prodiver said


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## phys sam (Jan 11, 2008)

Well you've had a whole load of conflicting opinions so I guess all you can do is try a different approach for 8-12 weeks and then reassess to see if you've made any progress.

This type of thread comes up all the time and the same things happen.

Some people cite common practice (i.e. incline works upper chest for me)

Some people cite empirical evidence (i.e. decline works upper chest more therefore thats best) or theoretical evidence (cable crosses are anatomically suited best to work chest)

Some people just have random theories based on f all (i.e. they do it and they're massive)

Perhaps a more interesting question to people might be, how long do you give it before you decide an approach isn't working for you (i.e. how long should it take to notice a difference)?


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## DEJ (Mar 11, 2007)

hey prodiver, very interesting post. just wondering what is the correct form when doing decline press, what i mean is where should you bring the bar down to nipples or lower neck? always been something that has confused me.


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## godsgifttoearth (Jul 28, 2009)

phys sam said:


> Perhaps a more interesting question to people might be, how long do you give it before you decide an approach isn't working for you (i.e. how long should it take to notice a difference)?


its categorically NOT working if the weights or reps are not going up every session. if you aint progressing you aint growing. i typically find changing a move takes me 1-2 sessions to start the progression in weights. i always call it the honeymoon period.

the main stimulus for continued hypertrophy is increasing resistance (all science says this). this is why threads like this are a bit pointless. just keep adding weight to the lift and everything involved in that lift will get bigger. doesnt matter if its dumbbell flys or decline bench.

the easiest way to keep adding weight to lifts, is to use 1 main lift. if you go flying in with 4 different exercises for the chest. how can you possibly keep adding weight every session? its going to take far too long to repair the damage you did the previous session. your body wont even think about overcompensation until its fixed what you did previously.

lagging body parts are more often than not lagging because they're being overtrained. once again, this goes back to the point i made about. pick 1 main lift and add weight to it with a sensible set+rep scheme.

say the pecs in this case are lagging, and the triceps and delts are carrying the load. OP simply has to make note of where his form is failing. slightly widening the grip may help. at this point the pecs are the weak link in the chain. you will not progress until the pecs catch up to the synergist muscles (triceps+delts). when they do catch up, normal service will be resumed and they will all progress and grow proportionally. at this point messing around with isolations etc is only going to compound (no pun) the muscular imbalances with triceps and delts continuing to develop leaving the chest behind etc.

can we see a picture of the lagging chest?

also i've not noticed it in this thread. but can you post your entire routine for all days?


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## GREG KUZ (Jan 7, 2009)

Mate, im 19 6ft 3 so similer height. been training 4 years now naturally cming on five years. have always trained chest twice a week and it has grown huge. My routine is

flat barbell bench press - 12,8,8,6,6-failiure reps.

Incline barbell press- same as above,

Dumbell pullovers - same as above.

My chest has never stopped growing and for 19 i consider myself very strong for a natural- bench press 1 rep max 150kilo. Deadlift 1 rep max 190kilo.

Not saying you should copy my routine but as far as people saying training chest twice a week is bullsh*t. Its not. Especially for young, hardgainers. I train EVERYTHING twice a week, always have done, and have grown massive. Sort your diet out and youll be laughing. Everyones different.


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## Prodiver (Nov 14, 2008)

DEJ said:


> hey prodiver, very interesting post. just wondering what is the correct form when doing decline press, what i mean is where should you bring the bar down to nipples or lower neck? always been something that has confused me.


Many gyms nowadays don't have good decline benches, especially 45º ones like the old guard used to use.

If you can contrive a good angle, you tend automatically to lower the bar just down past the nipples almost to the lower neck so you can squeeze your shoulders together with your elbows out beyond your ears and get a good stretch on the pecs - a narrow bench helps.

Then when you drive the bar up, at the top it's somewhere vertically above your navel and you squeeze your pecs between your torso and your upper arms. Pecs at their strongest and max range of movement. Nice.

In case you can't arrange a good decline bench, don't eschew the best pec-dec machines: they have a high seat, shoulders-back, ar$e-forward stance which gives a very effective upper arm decline movement.


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## Guest (Dec 15, 2009)

tomass1342 said:


> nah, other people e.g my gf and brother have commented the my chest isnt as good as the rest, from an aesthetic point of view. I asked a guy from my gym, the current over 50's bb champion and he advised more incline?


Get the pics up!


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## glen danbury (May 23, 2006)

pro diver i would still argue that the sternal head and clavicular head can be preferentially recruited through choice of different exercises (despite the EMG study you quote) especially when you consider that each area is innervated by a different nerve - lateral pectoral nerve, C5,6,7 to clavicular portion and medial pectoral nerve, C8,T1 to sternal portion

as stated earlier anything where there is slight flexion of the shoulder will activate the clavicular head as thats its secondary function due to its orientation of fibers

having said that my personal advice to the person on here would be just to choose one or two basic movements and ensure that theres is consistant progressive overload - if you get stronger but there isnt the development in the target area then either your form sucks or you have imbalances which is robbing the pecs of the work. if this is the case typically you would need to stretch out the pec minor and upper traps which usually result in the position which makes the pecs less able to provide the primary force development of the movement


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## DEJ (Mar 11, 2007)

Prodiver said:


> Many gyms nowadays don't have good decline benches, especially 45º ones like the old guard used to use.
> 
> If you can contrive a good angle, you tend automatically to lower the bar just down past the nipples almost to the lower neck so you can squeeze your shoulders together with your elbows out beyond your ears and get a good stretch on the pecs - a narrow bench helps.
> 
> ...


brilliant thanks prodiver appreciated! hopefully get my chest to grow now lol


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## phys sam (Jan 11, 2008)

glen danbury said:


> pro diver i would still argue that the sternal head and clavicular head can be preferentially recruited through choice of different exercises (despite the EMG study you quote) especially when you consider that each area is innervated by a different nerve - lateral pectoral nerve, C5,6,7 to clavicular portion and medial pectoral nerve, C8,T1 to sternal portion
> 
> as stated earlier anything where there is slight flexion of the shoulder will activate the clavicular head as thats its secondary function due to its orientation of fibers


Glen,

why does the different innervation of the different pec major heads make you believe any more that you can activate them preferentially by altering the bench position?

Surely if it was true, there would be a difference on EMG studies, regardless of the innervation?


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## phys sam (Jan 11, 2008)

glen danbury said:


> having said that my personal advice to the person on here would be just to choose one or two basic movements and ensure that theres is consistant progressive overload - if you get stronger but there isnt the development in the target area then either your form sucks or you have imbalances which is robbing the pecs of the work. if this is the case typically you would need to stretch out the pec minor and upper traps which usually result in the position which makes the pecs less able to provide the primary force development of the movement


Also, can you explain why tight upper traps and pec minor make the pec major less able to provide primary force development.

Presumably you're reducing pec major range if your shoulder is protracted and elevated (if thats what upper traps do, and its not levator scapulae).

That would be the same as having loss of terminal elbow extension due to tight biceps, or having tight hamstrings that reduce range in say SLDL.

does this reduce their ability to be the primary force developers in say curls or ham curls?


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## glen danbury (May 23, 2006)

phys sam said:


> Glen,
> 
> why does the different innervation of the different pec major heads make you believe any more that you can activate them preferentially by altering the bench position?
> 
> Surely if it was true, there would be a difference on EMG studies, regardless of the innervation?


if its innervated by a different nerve and the fibers a different motor neurone then in my mind it stands to reason that you can preferentially fatigue one area due to recruitment patterns with aiddferent movement

pro diver has based his opinion on work by glass and armstrong 1997 i believe? you only have to read that paper to see that there has been alot of EMg studies which contradict it (especially the pec recruitment barnettet al)

like most science you can find any paper that defends your position - the bulk of evidence tends to guide my beliefs not isolated studies which go against large anacdotel evidence


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## glen danbury (May 23, 2006)

phys sam said:


> Also, can you explain why tight upper traps and pec minor make the pec major less able to provide primary force development.
> 
> Presumably you're reducing pec major range if your shoulder is protracted and elevated (if thats what upper traps do, and its not levator scapulae).
> 
> ...


with tight pec minor and uopper traps there will be a natural deformit of where the humerus sits, this will negatively impact the length tension of the pecs and there will also be a change in motor pattern with favorment of shoulder protraction than horizontal flexion. watch from behind the head of someone with shoulder protraction due to tight pecs/traps bench and you will clearly see the shoulders taking up the work through increased protraction rather than horizontal flexion meaning the delts, serratus etc all take over the workload

the example you have put up for biceps is difficult though as typically the biceps are reponsible for for the inner range of movement during elbow flexion where the brachialis is responsible for the intial flexion in the outer range - this relates to the terminology of shunt and spurt muscles.

A shunt muscle has its proximal attachment near the joint it acts over and its distal attachment at a greater distance away from the joint. As a shunt muscle contracts it applies force along the bones and pulls the joint surfaces together in order to stabilise the joint. The brachialis and brachioradialis are examples of shunt muscles.

The opposite can be said of spurt muscles, as their proximal attachment is away from the joint and its distal attachment is close. This enables the spurt muscle to apply force across the bone instead of along to create movement about the joint. Spurt muscles tend to be prime movers and the bicep brachii is classified as a spurt muscle.


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## phys sam (Jan 11, 2008)

glen i haven't got the primary articles (glass or barnett. The only thing i could find on barnett showed that for the upper pecs they looked at flat Vs incline. I couldn't see a mention of decline?

Can you shed any light on that?


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## phys sam (Jan 11, 2008)

If there is that much contradiction between EMG studies, why are you so sure that you can preferentially fatigue an area?

I haven't got access to the primary articles (glass or barnett), but after a very quick google search, I could only find out that barnett had looked at flat Vs incline w.r.t. the upper pecs. I am of course relying on someone's interpretation of barnett et al's work!

I do understand your explanation of shunt vs spurt (not heard it called that before). It's similar to upper traps vs lev scap (i.e. upper traps doesn't actually produce much elevation at all, rather lateral stabilisation of SC joint etc).

I don't understand why it complicates things. Biceps is still the prime mover right. So in the same way that scapula protraction alters length tension relationship, so does shortened biceps?

Also on the bench of a protracted lifter...if someone has a shortened pec minor not just a faulty movement pattern/ motor control issue, then they are already protracted whilst lying on their back, so are they anymore likely to recruit serratus than someone who isn't?

There is therefore a difference between true protraction and faulty movement pattern.

Also, why would delts work more in someone who was truly protracted? They work plenty in someone who isn't don't they?


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## hulk1 (Dec 1, 2009)

the younger you are the quicker your body repairs itself compared to when you get older so chest will be repaired after a few days so i suggest if its a lagging bodypart then HIT IT TWICE!!!


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## dingosteve (Apr 26, 2009)

Prodiver said:


> The lower pecs are not below the upper pecs - they're actually behind them.
> 
> Different exercises do not put more stress on different parts of the pecs.


you know what i reckon prodiver is right, i found that dumbell presses by far work my chest all over than anything else. i only use benching simply as an all over upper body exercise.


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## Ashcrapper (Jul 3, 2008)

i find the following gives my chest a good hammering:

slight incline db press

db flyes or use flye machine

decline bench press

cables

couple warm up sets, 1 working and a drop and/or negatives on the presses.


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