# The Inevitability of Losing Muscle Whilst Cutting



## rectus (Jan 18, 2012)

Do you think that muscle loss is inevitable at some point during a natural cut? Or, is it avoidable if the right diet is in place, or correctly tweaked?

Personally I have started to lose muscle on Palumbo's ketogenic diet towards the end of the 3rd month. I'm now on AAS to hold onto my muscle, and I am also ill so unable to eat properly which won't help.

Thanks for reading.


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## reza85 (Jan 11, 2009)

You will lose muscle on a natty Cut Fact as the body is a very clever machine and it realizes that muscle burns even further kals when resting so it will try to preserve homeostasis were possible


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## PHMG (Jun 15, 2010)

If you do past a certain amount of bodyfat yes imo.


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## squatthis (May 3, 2010)

I'd say to get below 8-9% there would be muscle loss IMO


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## rectus (Jan 18, 2012)

squatthis said:


> I'd say to get below 8-9% there would be muscle loss IMO


So you think that if you're above 10%+ then muscle loss is down to a mistake with dieting?


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## reza85 (Jan 11, 2009)

rectus said:


> So you think that if you're above 10%+ then muscle loss is down to a mistake with dieting?


Ill say depends on were you sticking point tends to be for me is around the 14% mark cant get past it with out cardio and big deficit so every one is different !


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## squatthis (May 3, 2010)

rectus said:


> So you think that if you're above 10%+ then muscle loss is down to a mistake with dieting?


For myself, yes. I can get to 10%ish without losing much if any muscle, below that I need AAS to hold onto it. As reza said, its down to where you need a big deficit and lots of cardio. For me to get below 10% i would need a decent deficit and a good amount of cardio.


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## saxondale (Nov 11, 2012)

rectus said:


> Do you think that muscle loss is inevitable at some point during a natural cut?


size or density (definition)?

at the moment I`m still growing and loosing weight but possibly would agree once into single digit % this may not be possible


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## rectus (Jan 18, 2012)

squatthis said:


> For myself, yes. I can get to 10%ish without losing much if any muscle, below that I need AAS to hold onto it. As reza said, its down to where you need a big deficit and lots of cardio. For me to get below 10% i would need a decent deficit and a good amount of cardio.


See, my understanding was that you didn't have to do cardio for fat loss, just create a calorific deficit (which is what cardio does) but can it be that simple? What else is going on here? I'm not sure what the pros do but I imagine that would be a pretty good example to follow as they are on the lowest calories possible and achieve amazing fat loss results.



saxondale said:


> size or density (definition)?


Is there a difference?


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## iamyou (Oct 29, 2012)

I'd say it can be done without losing any lbm. Strength will go down because of water but you'll get it back. And I'm talking about cutting down to single digits... I'm at 7-8% myself at the moment after a 3-4 month cut and find it hard to continue without losing strength and lbm from this point forward.


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## saxondale (Nov 11, 2012)

rectus said:


> Is there a difference?


your muscles can be smaller but look better giving the impression they are big compared to the next man - see?


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## Fatstuff (Mar 2, 2010)

How do u know your losing muscle? u r on a ketogenic diet, u will more than likely be flat from lack of carbs.


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## rectus (Jan 18, 2012)

saxondale said:


> your muscles can be smaller but look better giving the impression they are big compared to the next man - see?


No, I am still blind.



Fatstuff said:


> How do u know your losing muscle? u r on a ketogenic diet, u will more than likely be flat from lack of carbs.


Had a couple of people point it out to me. As I've been taking body fat measurements you can work it out from comparing LBM.


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## Fat (Jan 2, 2010)

There's no reason to lose muscle when cutting naturally but people often get inpatient so they create a huge deficit and lose muscle. Just remember you need to reach your protein requirements whilst stimulating your muscles throughout the process.


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## stone14 (Mar 24, 2005)

to reduce muscle loss you will need to cut long and slow to give a slow even level of fat loss with minimual damage to lbm, no hard dieting, as a natty i think 16week cut isds a good time and cheat days,


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## stone14 (Mar 24, 2005)

Fat said:


> There's no reason to lose muscle when cutting naturally but people often get inpatient so they create a huge deficit and lose muscle.


i agree, you cant cut natty the same way you can cut on aas+peds.

if i was cutting natty then i would expect to loose some lbm


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## ed220 (Mar 7, 2010)

Im cutting naturally at the moment and have been so for about a month, averaging around 1 lbm loss per week.. So far I am still making some small strength gains so I dont think I have lost any muscle yet.


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## Home Physique (Jun 9, 2012)

Fat said:


> There's no reason to lose muscle when cutting naturally but people often get inpatient so they create a huge deficit and lose muscle. Just remember you need to reach your protein requirements whilst stimulating your muscles throughout the process.


I will back this up. Earlier this year I did a 16 odd week cut and I would honestly say I retained around 90% of my muscle mass / strength. Once I returned to all out carbs I gained probably 10lbs in the space of 2 weeks from glycogen replacement and lifts came up pretty well too.

As you say, it's because people get impatient. Patience is key.


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## saxondale (Nov 11, 2012)

and I`m definitely still growing muscle while loosing fat - though I expect the returns to start diminishing sooner rather than later.


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## Kaiz (Nov 3, 2012)

get some steroids down ya son


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## rectus (Jan 18, 2012)

Home Physique said:


> I will back this up. Earlier this year I did a 16 odd week cut and I would honestly say I retained around 90% of my muscle mass / strength. Once I returned to all out carbs I gained probably 10lbs in the space of 2 weeks from glycogen replacement and lifts came up pretty well too.
> 
> As you say, it's because people get impatient. Patience is key.


I'm on my 16th week of cutting. I wasn't losing muscle at first, in my fourth month it started to happen with no change to my diet so it's like my body was just saying "no more fat will burn, muscle destruction activated". I'm at a high bodyfat percentage so I would have hoped this would come later on.


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## Home Physique (Jun 9, 2012)

rectus said:


> I'm on my 16th week of cutting. I wasn't losing muscle at first, in my fourth month it started to happen with no change to my diet so it's like my body was just saying "no more fat will burn, muscle destruction activated". I'm at a high bodyfat percentage so I would have hoped this would come later on.


I believe it has a lot to do with your hormones. I am no scientist. I too start to see things go downhill rapidly after 16 weeks. What I plan to do next year when I start my 6% or bust cut I will probably do 8 weeks of deficit, maintenance break for a week, another 8 weeks, maintenance break for a week and then continue until I am there.

As natural trainers you need that break to bring everything back up to where it needs to be. 16 weeks has been the same for me on both cuts... all becomes difficult at that point, no weight loss, strength loss.


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## rectus (Jan 18, 2012)

Home Physique said:


> I believe it has a lot to do with your hormones. I am no scientist. I too start to see things go downhill rapidly after 16 weeks. What I plan to do next year when I start my 6% or bust cut I will probably do 8 weeks of deficit, maintenance break for a week, another 8 weeks, maintenance break for a week and then continue until I am there.
> 
> As natural trainers you need that break to bring everything back up to where it needs to be. 16 weeks has been the same for me on both cuts... all becomes difficult at that point, no weight loss, strength loss.


I'm not natural anymore, started a course on Monday because I was shrinking and I am already narrow as it is. I'm going to increase my deficit now because I think AAS can allow me to do so. I'm proud of my 4 month natural cut though, although I don't know if you can call it a cut when I'm not cut 

So do you think a diet break is essential? What would that consist of exactly? For instance, I do keto so I would just go back to high carbs for a week?


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## Fat (Jan 2, 2010)

rectus said:


> I'm not natural anymore, started a course on Monday because I was shrinking and I am already narrow as it is. I'm going to increase my deficit now because I think AAS can allow me to do so. I'm proud of my 4 month natural cut though, although I don't know if you can call it a cut when I'm not cut
> 
> So do you think a diet break is essential? What would that consist of exactly? For instance, I do keto so I would just go back to high carbs for a week?


Diet break is eating maintenance calories for a week or 2 to reset your hormones but it wouldn't be necessary now as you're injecting synthetic hormones. You said your at high bodyfat percentage above so there is no reason for you to lose muscle naturally as fat will be the preferred energy source for your body of course if nutrition is correct. I would seriously look into nutrition side of things before progressing any further as something must be wrong, ultimately to make the most of your cycle/money and why keto?


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## rectus (Jan 18, 2012)

Fat said:


> Diet break is eating maintenance calories for a week or 2 to reset your hormones but it wouldn't be necessary now as you're injecting synthetic hormones. You said your at high bodyfat percentage above so there is no reason for you to lose muscle naturally as fat will be the preferred energy source for your body. I would seriously look into nutrition side of things before progressing any further and why keto?


Yeah I wasn't planning to do a maintenance week now, just wondered. Why keto? Well because my body fat becomes the primary source for energy, it suppresses appetite, pretty much eliminated my IBS. I'm going to stay fat adapted for life now, and once I reach my goals on keto I will move onto Paleo.


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## Home Physique (Jun 9, 2012)

rectus said:


> I'm not natural anymore, started a course on Monday because I was shrinking and I am already narrow as it is. I'm going to increase my deficit now because I think AAS can allow me to do so. I'm proud of my 4 month natural cut though, although I don't know if you can call it a cut when I'm not cut
> 
> So do you think a diet break is essential? What would that consist of exactly? For instance, I do keto so I would just go back to high carbs for a week?





Fat said:


> Diet break is eating maintenance calories for a week or 2 to reset your hormones but it wouldn't be necessary now as you're injecting synthetic hormones. You said your at high bodyfat percentage above so there is no reason for you to lose muscle naturally as fat will be the preferred energy source for your body of course if nutrition is correct. I would seriously look into nutrition side of things before progressing any further as something must be wrong, ultimately make the most of your cycle/money and why keto?


I would answer that again but Fat has done it for me well enough. There is no need if you are not natty as like he says, the gear is doing what a diet break would achieve for you. I will also side with Fat and say that if you can't get to a fairly decent level in 16 weeks there must be something off with your diet and or training matey.


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## rectus (Jan 18, 2012)

Home Physique said:


> I would answer that again but Fat has done it for me well enough. There is no need if you are not natty as like he says, the gear is doing what a diet break would achieve for you. I will also side with Fat and say that if you can't get to a fairly decent level in 16 weeks there must be something off with your diet and or training matey.


*Diet: *Dave Palumbo's Keto Diet

*Training:* Jim Wendlers 5/3/1

6x a week at the gym.


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## Home Physique (Jun 9, 2012)

rectus said:


> *Diet: *Dave Palumbo's Keto Diet
> 
> *Training:* Jim Wendlers 5/3/1
> 
> 6x a week at the gym.


Yes but what is your daily intake and macros?

What assistance work are you doing alongside the 5/3/1 - is it all heavy work?


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## rectus (Jan 18, 2012)

Home Physique said:


> Yes but what is your daily intake and macros?
> 
> What assistance work are you doing alongside the 5/3/1 - is it all heavy work?


2000 cals. It will be much less at the moment as I'm not well.

It's not heavy work at all compared to what I was doing previous - 5x5. I add in bicep curls, tricep extensions, lateral raises, calf raises, leg extensions. My best on incline bench press was the 30kg dumbells when on carbs, strength went down on keto obviously. Now my bench press is with the 15kg dumbells... hard for the ego at first but the reps are better controlled, more range of motion and its primarily for hypertrophy so lots of reps.


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## Home Physique (Jun 9, 2012)

rectus said:


> 2000 cals. It will be much less at the moment as I'm not well.
> 
> It's not heavy work at all compared to what I was doing previous - 5x5. I add in bicep curls, tricep extensions, lateral raises, calf raises, leg extensions. My best on incline bench press was the 30kg dumbells when on carbs, strength went down on keto obviously. Now my bench press is with the 15kg dumbells... hard for the ego at first but the reps are better controlled, more range of motion and its primarily for hypertrophy so lots of reps.


So you are looking for hypertrophy whilst cutting? There lies your problem. The key to retaining mass when cutting is to lift as heavy as you possibly can. Work with 4-6 reps for 4-5 sets.

Drop out all those isolations and try more compounds after your 5/3/1 sets, or even try a modified boring but big set - instead of 5 sets of 10 at the 60% mark recommended; do a 5x5 of the main lift with a higher %

When doing Keto you NEED those carb refeeds, you will end up weak as shiz without them. I made that mistake when I did Keto, I hard a carb up every 4 weeks. That's great for someone just looking to lose weight. When you are into training you need those carbs for glycogen.

Every 3-4 days I believe is the recommended carb refeed when on CKD.

Personally, having done Keto myself I would honestly not recommend it. It's unnecessary, I have managed to lose more body fat using a balanced diet than when I did Keto.


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## rectus (Jan 18, 2012)

Home Physique said:


> So you are looking for hypertrophy whilst cutting? There lies your problem. The key to retaining mass when cutting is to lift as heavy as you possibly can. Work with 4-6 reps for 4-5 sets.
> 
> Drop out all those isolations and try more compounds after your 5/3/1 sets, or even try a modified boring but big set - instead of 5 sets of 10 at the 60% mark recommended; do a 5x5 of the main lift with a higher %
> 
> ...


Yeah I read about hypertrophy work during cutting isn't the best idea, but I ignored it thinking it was just b0llocks. I didn't switch from 5x5 to 5/3/1 because I was cutting, it just happened to coincide. I suppose it's not really worth changing my routine now as I've changed the rules with AAS.

On Palumbo's keto diet, you have one carb meal on a Sunday evening 1x a week, the purpose being to keep your thyroid active. CKD has a two day carb re-feed I believe which is designed with gym performance in mind. I can get through a session with no carbs perfectly well, just without the strength aspect. Do you run a particular diet protocol then? I really love keto, but I agree, I wouldn't recommend it because it's pretty hard going for the general public and probably not sustainable.


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## Home Physique (Jun 9, 2012)

rectus said:


> Yeah I read about hypertrophy work during cutting isn't the best idea, but I ignored it thinking it was just b0llocks. I didn't switch from 5x5 to 5/3/1 because I was cutting, it just happened to coincide. I suppose it's not really worth changing my routine now as I've changed the rules with AAS.
> 
> On Palumbo's keto diet, you have one carb meal on a Sunday evening 1x a week, the purpose being to keep your thyroid active. CKD has a two day carb re-feed I believe which is designed with gym performance in mind. I can get through a session with no carbs perfectly well, just without the strength aspect. Do you run a particular diet protocol then? I really love keto, but I agree, I wouldn't recommend it because it's pretty hard going for the general public and probably not sustainable.


Hah yeah it's definitely not boll0cks! 

I have no experience of gear so I can't comment on what the game plan would be for you now.

I am currently bulking doing IF based around a balanced diet. No % split I just aim for LBM in protein, around 80-90g of Fat and the rest in carbs, shooting for 2.8k a day.

So far I have been enjoying IF and will probably continue to do it indefinitely.

I personally wouldn't advise Keto for those exact same reasons and having better results with a standard diet and more recently IF I see no benefit to it, other than that great mental high you get on it when you are full on Keto.


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## rectus (Jan 18, 2012)

Home Physique said:


> Hah yeah it's definitely not boll0cks!
> 
> I have no experience of gear so I can't comment on what the game plan would be for you now.
> 
> ...


I like the idea of IF, sometimes you just get sick of constantly eating and if I could look like Berkhan I would be happy  Never got that mental high, but like I said earlier, I suffer from IBS and cutting the carbs helps massively. Cheers for all of your input.


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## Tom90 (Jan 29, 2010)

stone14 said:


> i agree, you cant cut natty the same way you can cut on aas+peds.
> 
> if i was cutting natty then i would expect to loose some lbm


From experience, would you say that it's possible to cut on AAS and gain LBM at the same time?


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## Matt 1 (May 8, 2010)

I think if you go low enough BF wise, some atrophy will happen. But with correct diet, and I mean making it spot on, you shouldnt lose too much, I think overall you look better anyhow, I think I look almost bigger when really lean? Bloated watery and big doesnt look as impressive IMO


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## stone14 (Mar 24, 2005)

Tom90 said:


> From experience, would you say that it's possible to cut on AAS and gain LBM at the same time?


too many factors i wouldnt like to say a definate answer, i alway pick 1 goal, if its loosing fat then its also to maintain lbm, if you gain any lbm then thats a bonus but i cant say if you cant.

maybe at the start of a cycle when your anabolics are at there most effective (till your body tried to catch up and counteract) there will be a greater amount of muscle saving so id say its possible, but imo if your on a cut then just try and maintian it, dont get your hopes you your going to grow and loos fat at the same time.


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## Tom90 (Jan 29, 2010)

stone14 said:


> too many factors i wouldnt like to say a definate answer, i alway pick 1 goal, if its loosing fat then its also to maintain lbm, if you gain any lbm then thats a bonus but i cant say if you cant.
> 
> maybe at the start of a cycle when your anabolics are at there most effective (till your body tried to catch up and counteract) there will be a greater amount of muscle saving so id say its possible, but imo if your on a cut then just try and maintian it, dont get your hopes you your going to grow and loos fat at the same time.


Cheers mate! :thumbup1:


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