# Keto diet, is a carb load necessary?



## j1mmytt

Hi fellows, Started keto this week and peed on a ketostick lastnight and it turned pink woopdeedooo.

Today i have had my morning shake plus 1 meal and im feeling rather tired, demotivated and retarded :{ i assume this is normal at this stage?

Anyway im just wondering if its possible to skip the carb loading phase out of this diet completely and just stick to keto for the whole duration, fats and proteins? im about 12bf and 170lbs at present but i want to get shredded as i have never been to this stage before and would like to experience it for once.

So can i miss out this carb load day, thing is it seems too complicated and id rather not risk my progress so far. What would happen if i skipped it? will i have no energy at all for my next training session and feel all flat and depumped?

Thanks

Regards James


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## 36-26

j1mmytt said:


> Hi fellows, Started keto this week and peed on a ketostick lastnight and it turned pink woopdeedooo.
> 
> Today i have had my morning shake plus 1 meal and im feeling rather tired, demotivated and retarded :{ i assume this is normal at this stage?
> 
> Anyway im just wondering if its possible to skip the carb loading phase out of this diet completely and just stick to keto for the whole duration, fats and proteins? im about 12bf and 170lbs at present but i want to get shredded as i have never been to this stage before and would like to experience it for once.
> 
> So can i miss out this carb load day, thing is it seems too complicated and id rather not risk my progress so far. What would happen if i skipped it? will i have no energy at all for my next training session and feel all flat and depumped?
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Regards James


Your supposed to go 2 weeks before your first carb up iirc, but I would carb up after the 2 weeks and every week thereafter because you will not be able to train as hard imo, but its your body and if you think you don't need it maybe you are right. IMO you would lose muscle doing keto non stop but I might be wrong. Hpe that helps


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## j1mmytt

thanks for the tip, think il miss this first carb load then, i know i will loose some musle but im happy to have a more athletic look then a bulky one well at least for this cut anyway. Just want to get as cut as possible then maybe come back up to at least 8% and stay there for as long as possible.


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## ausbuilt

ketosis is only muscle sparing if you take AAS.. (you don't say whether you do). If not, then the only muscle sparing part is the carb up to super compensate your depeleted muscle.. helps your brain a bit too..

I carb up daily (and in ketosis every day too, but i manipulate heavily with insulin) and i've gone from 106kg and 22% bf to 105kg and 12% in 14 weeks.. its the carb up that built the muscle (with the insulin) as i've prevoiusly keto dieted, with AAS, and never gained muscle before..

at any rate if you carb up, if you use metformin to get back into keto, you'll drop back into keto very fast, so the carb up will not slow down your shredding goal..


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## 36-26

ausbuilt said:


> ketosis is only muscle sparing if you take AAS.. (you don't say whether you do). If not, then the only muscle sparing part is the carb up to super compensate your depeleted muscle.. helps your brain a bit too..
> 
> I carb up daily (and in ketosis every day too, but i manipulate heavily with insulin) and i've gone from 106kg and 22% bf to 105kg and 12% in 14 weeks.. its the carb up that built the muscle (with the insulin) as i've prevoiusly keto dieted, with AAS, and never gained muscle before..
> 
> at any rate if you carb up, if you use metformin to get back into keto, you'll drop back into keto very fast, so the carb up will not slow down your shredding goal..


You obviously know your stuff mate but do you really think he needs to be taking metformin, I'm sure he can drop to 8% without it, he's only 170lbs so prob a relative beginner, IMO its a bit irresponsible to be encouraging any type of med even if it is only metformin, carbing up every weekend will do fine IMO with minimal muscl loss which he said he doesn't mind anyway.


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## Tom90

ausbuilt said:


> I carb up daily (and in ketosis every day too, but i manipulate heavily with insulin) and i've gone from 106kg and 22% bf to 105kg and 12% in 14 weeks.. its the carb up that built the muscle (with the insulin) as i've prevoiusly keto dieted, with AAS, and never gained muscle before..


Jesus wept, 10% bf and weight hardly changed!!

How did you manage that?!?


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## j1mmytt

right..... just want to add that i have no idea what metformin is or AAS?!

anyway just an update, today i trained chest and i was wasted after only a few sets and could hardly lift much at all. obviously i put this own to the low carbs i have in my diet. So maybe i should have loaded up this weekend :{ oh well.

i have only just goten back into training and so far being on this diet i have actually gained some weight but its probably down to getting my pump back. so we will see later down the line.

Ausbuilt i have been seeing alot of your posts on this site regarding keto and you know your stuff im sure i will be gaining some helpful info from this site


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## Andrew Jacks

Don't confuse Keto and CKD, the later offers refeeds whilst maintaining ketones (burning fat).


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## j1mmytt

so, CKD includes carb loads and keto doesnt? sorry im confused, new here and what is CKD TKD? il have a little search on here.....


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## Virtus

SKD - Standard Keto Diet - Minimal carbs throughout the day, no carb up

TKD - Targeted Keto Diet - Carbs will be around workout

Cyclical Keto Diet - CKD - Carb load will occur over a set amount of time (18-48hours (person specific)). You must make sure that workouts are maintained to high level to ensure full muscle depletion. The total amount of carbohydrates consumed during this time period must be monitored to achieve optimal glycogen levels, both the duration of the carb-load and the amount of carbs eaten must be correct.


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## j1mmytt

Virtus said:


> SKD - Standard Keto Diet - Minimal carbs throughout the day, no carb up
> 
> TKD - Targeted Keto Diet - Carbs will be around workout
> 
> Cyclical Keto Diet - CKD - Carb load will occur over a set amount of time (18-48hours (person specific)). You must make sure that workouts are maintained to high level to ensure full muscle depletion. The total amount of carbohydrates consumed during this time period must be monitored to achieve optimal glycogen levels, both the duration of the carb-load and the amount of carbs eaten must be correct.


great thanks for that, I think during a carb load i might just eat under the ammount of carbs$ i should, no harm in doing this surely.


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## martin brown

ausbuilt said:


> ketosis is only muscle sparing if you take AAS.. (you don't say whether you do). If not, then the only muscle sparing part is the carb up to super compensate your depeleted muscle.. helps your brain a bit too..
> 
> I carb up daily (and in ketosis every day too, but i manipulate heavily with insulin) and i've gone from *106kg and 22% bf to 105kg and 12% in 14 weeks.. its the carb up that built the muscle (with the insulin) as i've prevoiusly keto dieted, with AAS, and never gained muscle before..*
> 
> at any rate if you carb up, if you use metformin to get back into keto, you'll drop back into keto very fast, so the carb up will not slow down your shredding goal..


don't kid yourself mate - you're saying you have lost 11 kg of fat on four weeks AND at the same time put on 10kg of muscle??? Lol


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## bayman

14 weeks Martin, re-read the post. Nevertheless, it is a bold statement to make, but I assume Ausbuilt is using AAS alongside the insulin.


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## martin brown

bayman said:


> 14 weeks Martin, re-read the post. Nevertheless, it is a bold statement to make, but I assume Ausbuilt is using AAS alongside the insulin.


lol I thought that was good going 

Even so, in fourteen weeks that's still 'rabbit from a hat' so I still call BS...


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## dtlv

Straight keto diets are murder for mood (don't do at all if a depressive person) and definitely kill high-end all-out exercise performance - definitely carb up using a CKD if you are a natty intent on keto and training hard.

Personally I find it easier to lean up with carbs rather than keto, but others love the diet. AAS users do seem to do far better on it than nattys though.


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## j1mmytt

Dtlv74 said:


> Straight keto diets are murder for mood (don't do at all if a depressive person) and definitely kill high-end all-out exercise performance - definitely carb up using a CKD if you are a natty intent on keto and training hard.
> 
> Personally I find it easier to lean up with carbs rather than keto, but others love the diet. AAS users do seem to do far better on it than nattys though.


I have decided i will carb up this friday, im so excited, striaght after my workout im going to eat some sweets  then a pizza then.... i duno whats next but it will be tastey. Do you think it matters much if they are high gi or low gi carbs? all will be absorbed into the muscles anyhow right?


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## Virtus

Fast carbs straight after workout, and probably for the another meal afterward, you could include sweets like haribo and the likes. The pizza i'd be mindful of due to the high fat content.

Don't get confused with thinking a carbup is just a pig fest, you'll see more positive results if it is properly planned


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## j1mmytt

Virtus said:


> Fast carbs straight after workout, and probably for the another meal afterward, you could include sweets like haribo and the likes. The pizza i'd be mindful of due to the high fat content.
> 
> Don't get confused with thinking a carbup is just a pig fest, you'll see more positive results if it is properly planned


will do. Il only have 3 pizzas then


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## ausbuilt

martin brown said:


> don't kid yourself mate - you're saying you have lost 11 kg of fat on four weeks AND at the same time put on 10kg of muscle??? Lol


Well FOURTEEN weeks... fast, but not that fast, and...

Yes mate, AND I reckon you could do the same. Do a search on a thread titled "metformin" where I answer some of Hacksii's q's.

The basis of being able to do this, and by the way there is a WHOLE FORUM about doing this on the net.. if you look.. (tell you later if you ask!) and its called "body recomposition" meaning losing fat AND building muscle at the same time... I agree- NORMALLY impossible, but with several very good metabolic tricks, its possible..

-OK First you need to be on a CKD, but with carb-ups on EVERY WEIGHT training day, but you need to go back to keto FAST...

most of this is on the "metformin" thread, but to force your body to move from glycolysis, and PAST gluconeogenesis to lipolysis/ketosis FAST you need two things:

1. AAS

2. Insulin

The AAS make your body retain nitrogen (the "N" in the "-NH3" group that makes an amino acid). So normally when your body has no carbs (BG level under 5.6), it goes into gluconeogenesis (i.e deaminate protein to provide free amino's to be made into glucose for energy in the krebs cycle, after there is no carbs for glycolysis). However with AAS FORCING your body to keep the aminos (retain nitrogen), you go straight to ketosis.

2. Insulin has the following effects on your body:

Physiological effects

Effect of insulin on glucose uptake and metabolism. Insulin binds to its receptor (1), which in turn starts many protein activation cascades (2). These include: translocation of Glut-4 transporter to the plasma membrane and influx of glucose (3), glycogen synthesis (4), glycolysis (5) and fatty acid synthesis (6).

The actions of insulin on the global human metabolism level include:

Control of cellular intake of certain substances, most prominently glucose in muscle and adipose tissue (about ⅔ of body cells).

Increase of DNA replication and protein synthesis via control of amino acid uptake.

Modification of the activity of numerous enzymes.

The actions of insulin on cells include:

Increased glycogen synthesis - insulin forces storage of glucose in liver (and muscle) cells in the form of glycogen; lowered levels of insulin cause liver cells to convert glycogen to glucose and excrete it into the blood. This is the clinical action of insulin, which is directly useful in reducing high blood glucose levels as in diabetes.

Increased fatty acid synthesis - insulin forces fat cells to take in blood lipids, which are converted to triglycerides; lack of insulin causes the reverse.

Increased esterification of fatty acids - forces adipose tissue to make fats (i.e., triglycerides) from fatty acid esters; lack of insulin causes the reverse.

Decreased proteolysis - decreasing the breakdown of protein.

Decreased lipolysis - forces reduction in conversion of fat cell lipid stores into blood fatty acids; lack of insulin causes the reverse.

Decreased gluconeogenesis - decreases production of glucose from non-sugar substrates, primarily in the liver (remember, the vast majority of endogenous insulin arriving at the liver never leaves the liver); lack of insulin causes glucose production from assorted substrates in the liver and elsewhere.

Decreased autophagy - decreased level of degradation of damaged organelles. Postprandial levels inhibit autophagy completely.[18]

Increased amino acid uptake - forces cells to absorb circulating amino acids; lack of insulin inhibits absorption.

Increased potassium uptake - forces cells to absorb serum potassium; lack of insulin inhibits absorption. Insulin's increase in cellular potassium uptake lowers potassium levels in blood.

Arterial muscle tone - forces arterial wall muscle to relax, increasing blood flow, especially in micro arteries; lack of insulin reduces flow by allowing these muscles to contract.

Increase in the secretion of hydrochloric acid by Parietal cells in the stomach.

from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insulin

So lets get this simple... when you add insulin, in the ABSENCE of carbs, you are FORCING your body to STILL:

1. retain amino acids

2. increase protein synthesis

3. DECREASE gluconeogenesis

Look at point 2- INCREASE PROTEIN SYNTHESIS - this means BUILD MUSCLE... of course your body is KEEPING all its amino's because insulin causes that anyway, and AASs do that too.... so you USE ALL the protein you take in for MUSCLE Building and repair and NOT for energy... (which happens when not using AAS and insulin and you go more than 4 hours without protein!!!)

OK so far so good- significant anabolism from the use of insulin and AAS, now what about fat burning? well I'm in keto for 14 hours out of every day, and do fasted cardio in the morning.. and am in keto right up to 2:30pm.. then I carb-up (with insulin) until 6pm, I do weights 6:30-7:15- then take more insulin (carbless), 3hours later about 10:30, i take more insulin (carbless); by 11pm my BG is under 5.6mmoL/L... i go to bed in keto.. get up at 7am, go do fasted cardio... and repeat as before... I do this 6 days per week...

Hmm, ok so far very good anabolism and pretty good fat burning.. how do i improve it? Well I add 2iu GH/day. 1iu upon waking before my cardio, and i take 100mcg t4 and 25mcg t3 (thyroid by the way increases metabolims- burns fat AND increases rate of protein synthesis...) I take my next 1iu of GH (usually) at 1:30, and my 7iu of insulin at 2pm to kick start my carb-up... before bed I take mod GRF(1-29) and ipamorelin (100mcg of each) along with 10mg of melatonin as it makes the peps work better..

Ok thats pretty good so far, but how would I make my body burn the problem fat areas better.. I know.. I'll add 20mg Vasotec every night.. as ACE inhibitors (angiotensin II inhibitor) blood pressure meds have an unusual side effect- they STOP alpha2a receptors in fat cells from replicating!! and of course I take yohimbine HCL to bind to those remaining receptors... and move that fat...

not bad so far.. but of course, to keep hard I take 0.5 mg arimidex EOD and on the days I don't take that, I take 20mg nolva.. of course then you're wondering what AAS i take? 1000mg/week test e, 800mg/week Tren e, 100mg/day anavar (and that has its own effect on fat, as does tren!)

this brings up the question of supplments- L-carnitine 1500mg/day (after a 2month!! loading phase- IT ONLY WORKS WITH INSULIN to help switch to ketosis daily; i take this with my 7iu insulin shot,and my post workout 4iu)

Also during my carb up I take 2g creatine with each carb meal... and later with each inssulin shot..

If you followed my eating plan (especially the daily carb up which is measured by LBM) and drug use I reckon you'd get the same results...

BTW, I measure:

-BP every morning

-Body temp- everymorning

-BG- 6times per day (was 12).

I record all the above in conjunction with my food....

Next week I start a new journal, as I'm getting serious and adding PGF2a (lutalyse) to my protocol....

Still think I'm kidding myself? question is do you you have the dediication to give it a try?


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## ausbuilt

36-26 said:


> You obviously know your stuff mate but do you really think he needs to be taking metformin, I'm sure he can drop to 8% without it, he's only 170lbs so prob a relative beginner, IMO its a bit irresponsible to be encouraging any type of med even if it is only metformin, carbing up every weekend will do fine IMO with minimal muscl loss which he said he doesn't mind anyway.


hi mate,

I agree, I'm not saying he should, but he was saying that he wasn't keen on carbing up, and at 170lb, I think he will do himself a dis-service and lose to much muscle if he skips the carb-up. He noted that he doesn't want to lose the fat loss momentum by carbing up- thing is if you use met, you can get into keto fast, and this makes people worry less about not losing fat after the carb up...

By the way, apart from gastric intolerence/nausea, met has a strong following in the life extension community, I would take it daily, but I'm using insulin for my own reasons (body recomposition/GH synergy).


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## Virtus

ausbuilt do you weekly carb up as well?


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## ausbuilt

Virtus said:


> ausbuilt do you weekly carb up as well?


I carb up daily, 6 days per week, as I do 6 weights workouts per week, and i want to be fully carbed to get a great pump and feed the muscle. I keep sundays as a free day (no official cardio or weights, but i usually end up doing MMA training/sparring with friends), and I could carb up all day... but in the end I just crave normal meals? and just eat whatever I feel like.. believe it or not... that means i have a protein shake with milk and some ice cream- feels like luxury!! or some fruit salad laced with glayva or grandmarnier.... I have odd cravings.. generally i don't go overboard because oddly on my CKD I'm NEVER hungry.. and I'm sick of carb loading 6 days a week... so no, i don't do a "proper" carb load on sunday...


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## bayman

ausbuilt said:


> Well FOURTEEN weeks... fast, but not that fast, and...
> 
> Yes mate, AND I reckon you could do the same. Do a search on a thread titled "metformin" where I answer some of Hacksii's q's.
> 
> The basis of being able to do this, and by the way there is a WHOLE FORUM about doing this on the net.. if you look.. (tell you later if you ask!) and its called "body recomposition" meaning losing fat AND building muscle at the same time... I agree- NORMALLY impossible, but with several very good metabolic tricks, its possible..
> 
> -OK First you need to be on a CKD, but with carb-ups on EVERY WEIGHT training day, but you need to go back to keto FAST...
> 
> most of this is on the "metformin" thread, but to force your body to move from glycolysis, and PAST gluconeogenesis to lipolysis/ketosis FAST you need two things:
> 
> 1. AAS
> 
> 2. Insulin
> 
> The AAS make your body retain nitrogen (the "N" in the "-NH3" group that makes an amino acid). So normally when your body has no carbs (BG level under 5.6), it goes into gluconeogenesis (i.e deaminate protein to provide free amino's to be made into glucose for energy in the krebs cycle, after there is no carbs for glycolysis). However with AAS FORCING your body to keep the aminos (retain nitrogen), you go straight to ketosis.
> 
> 2. Insulin has the following effects on your body:
> 
> Physiological effects
> 
> Effect of insulin on glucose uptake and metabolism. Insulin binds to its receptor (1), which in turn starts many protein activation cascades (2). These include: translocation of Glut-4 transporter to the plasma membrane and influx of glucose (3), glycogen synthesis (4), glycolysis (5) and fatty acid synthesis (6).
> 
> The actions of insulin on the global human metabolism level include:
> 
> Control of cellular intake of certain substances, most prominently glucose in muscle and adipose tissue (about ⅔ of body cells).
> 
> Increase of DNA replication and protein synthesis via control of amino acid uptake.
> 
> Modification of the activity of numerous enzymes.
> 
> The actions of insulin on cells include:
> 
> Increased glycogen synthesis - insulin forces storage of glucose in liver (and muscle) cells in the form of glycogen; lowered levels of insulin cause liver cells to convert glycogen to glucose and excrete it into the blood. This is the clinical action of insulin, which is directly useful in reducing high blood glucose levels as in diabetes.
> 
> Increased fatty acid synthesis - insulin forces fat cells to take in blood lipids, which are converted to triglycerides; lack of insulin causes the reverse.
> 
> Increased esterification of fatty acids - forces adipose tissue to make fats (i.e., triglycerides) from fatty acid esters; lack of insulin causes the reverse.
> 
> Decreased proteolysis - decreasing the breakdown of protein.
> 
> Decreased lipolysis - forces reduction in conversion of fat cell lipid stores into blood fatty acids; lack of insulin causes the reverse.
> 
> Decreased gluconeogenesis - decreases production of glucose from non-sugar substrates, primarily in the liver (remember, the vast majority of endogenous insulin arriving at the liver never leaves the liver); lack of insulin causes glucose production from assorted substrates in the liver and elsewhere.
> 
> Decreased autophagy - decreased level of degradation of damaged organelles. Postprandial levels inhibit autophagy completely.[18]
> 
> Increased amino acid uptake - forces cells to absorb circulating amino acids; lack of insulin inhibits absorption.
> 
> Increased potassium uptake - forces cells to absorb serum potassium; lack of insulin inhibits absorption. Insulin's increase in cellular potassium uptake lowers potassium levels in blood.
> 
> Arterial muscle tone - forces arterial wall muscle to relax, increasing blood flow, especially in micro arteries; lack of insulin reduces flow by allowing these muscles to contract.
> 
> Increase in the secretion of hydrochloric acid by Parietal cells in the stomach.
> 
> from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insulin
> 
> So lets get this simple... when you add insulin, in the ABSENCE of carbs, you are FORCING your body to STILL:
> 
> 1. retain amino acids
> 
> 2. increase protein synthesis
> 
> 3. DECREASE gluconeogenesis
> 
> Look at point 2- INCREASE PROTEIN SYNTHESIS - this means BUILD MUSCLE... of course your body is KEEPING all its amino's because insulin causes that anyway, and AASs do that too.... so you USE ALL the protein you take in for MUSCLE Building and repair and NOT for energy... (which happens when not using AAS and insulin and you go more than 4 hours without protein!!!)
> 
> OK so far so good- significant anabolism from the use of insulin and AAS, now what about fat burning? well I'm in keto for 14 hours out of every day, and do fasted cardio in the morning.. and am in keto right up to 2:30pm.. then I carb-up (with insulin) until 6pm, I do weights 6:30-7:15- then take more insulin (carbless), 3hours later about 10:30, i take more insulin (carbless); by 11pm my BG is under 5.6mmoL/L... i go to bed in keto.. get up at 7am, go do fasted cardio... and repeat as before... I do this 6 days per week...
> 
> Hmm, ok so far very good anabolism and pretty good fat burning.. how do i improve it? Well I add 2iu GH/day. 1iu upon waking before my cardio, and i take 100mcg t4 and 25mcg t3 (thyroid by the way increases metabolims- burns fat AND increases rate of protein synthesis...) I take my next 1iu of GH (usually) at 1:30, and my 7iu of insulin at 2pm to kick start my carb-up... before bed I take mod GRF(1-29) and ipamorelin (100mcg of each) along with 10mg of melatonin as it makes the peps work better..
> 
> Ok thats pretty good so far, but how would I make my body burn the problem fat areas better.. I know.. I'll add 20mg Vasotec every night.. as ACE inhibitors (angiotensin II inhibitor) blood pressure meds have an unusual side effect- they STOP alpha2a receptors in fat cells from replicating!! and of course I take yohimbine HCL to bind to those remaining receptors... and move that fat...
> 
> not bad so far.. but of course, to keep hard I take 0.5 mg arimidex EOD and on the days I don't take that, I take 20mg nolva.. of course then you're wondering what AAS i take? 1000mg/week test e, 800mg/week Tren e, 100mg/day anavar (and that has its own effect on fat, as does tren!)
> 
> this brings up the question of supplments- L-carnitine 1500mg/day (after a 2month!! loading phase- IT ONLY WORKS WITH INSULIN to help switch to ketosis daily; i take this with my 7iu insulin shot,and my post workout 4iu)
> 
> Also during my carb up I take 2g creatine with each carb meal... and later with each inssulin shot..
> 
> If you followed my eating plan (especially the daily carb up which is measured by LBM) and drug use I reckon you'd get the same results...
> 
> BTW, I measure:
> 
> -BP every morning
> 
> -Body temp- everymorning
> 
> -BG- 6times per day (was 12).
> 
> I record all the above in conjunction with my food....
> 
> Next week I start a new journal, as I'm getting serious and adding PGF2a (lutalyse) to my protocol....
> 
> Still think I'm kidding myself? question is do you you have the dediication to give it a try?


My head hurts just thinking about encorporating all those shots, supps and drugs. Not to mention diet, training, BP and glucose monitoring, and generally having a life.


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## Robbyg

As i dont use slin i will carb up either this week or next week which will be 2 or 3 weeks into keto  Will start before w/o some fruit and then after and carb up till sat midnight i read it in a ckd book which was very good about how to carb up


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## ausbuilt

bayman said:


> My head hurts just thinking about encorporating all those shots, supps and drugs. Not to mention diet, training, BP and glucose monitoring, and generally having a life.


LOL i somehow manage to work and recently got engaged.. (luckily we live together, and she loves the look i've achieved, and helps with shots etc)

its just a regimen, I'm also working on my track car as a hobby.. but on the other hand I only go out once a week..


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## ausbuilt

Robbyg said:


> As i dont use slin i will carb up either this week or next week which will be 2 or 3 weeks into keto  Will start before w/o some fruit and then after and carb up till sat midnight i read it in a ckd book which was very good about how to carb up


i love fruit in my carb up... actually I hang for it.. mmmmm pineapple.. banana..

yeah the point of all my posts is that all met/slin is for more frequent carb up, and fast move back to keto; without either of these a carb up weekly is a challenge.. and 2 weeks prob better.. 3 weeks...well you know your body- I'd lose muscle!


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## ausbuilt

Mr-Ponting said:


> Jesus wept, 10% bf and weight hardly changed!!
> 
> How did you manage that?!?


read my rather long response to "martin brown" 

its a bit of work.. and you can't be shy using a pharmacy full of drugs/supps! LOL


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## j1mmytt

ausbuilt said:


> LOL i somehow manage to work and recently got engaged.. (luckily we live together, and she loves the look i've achieved, and helps with shots etc)
> 
> its just a regimen, I'm also working on my track car as a hobby.. but on the other hand I only go out once a week..


track car? no way. what you got? i spend my life on my track car, 470bhp 300zx twin turbo weighs 1400kg love it, got vids on youtube if ya interested.


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## Robbyg

Yeah i hope to use met to get back into keto on the sunday . Would you use the met during the carb up ? or after


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## ausbuilt

Robbyg said:


> Yeah i hope to use met to get back into keto on the sunday . Would you use the met during the carb up ? or after


I'd use straight after your last carb meal to help get into keto faster. I used to think (months ago) that using during carb up was good, and it prob won't hurt as it does make your body more insulin sensitive... but now I think you WANT a bigger insulin spike with the carb up... and using met after is better.. and while you're in keto, your body becomes more insulin sensitive anyway..

so best use of met is re-entry to keto post carb up- after or with last carb meal.


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## ausbuilt

j1mmytt said:


> track car? no way. what you got? i spend my life on my track car, 470bhp 300zx twin turbo weighs 1400kg love it, got vids on youtube if ya interested.


lotus exige s; now with cup260 tune- looking to change injectors/pulley and intercooler (mod it to air/water rather than air/air) and tune to move from 260hp to 300 rwhp..

But.. first things first, i need to take the front clam of to repair some front end fibreglass damage ;-)

currently 867kg with i/2 tank fuel on scales.. all fluids, no driver.


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## j1mmytt

ausbuilt said:


> lotus exige s; now with cup260 tune- looking to change injectors/pulley and intercooler (mod it to air/water rather than air/air) and tune to move from 260hp to 300 rwhp..
> 
> But.. first things first, i need to take the front clam of to repair some front end fibreglass damage ;-)
> 
> currently 867kg with i/2 tank fuel on scales.. all fluids, no driver.


nice nice, which tracks do ya go to?

quick question too, can i eat sweets post workout with my shake on a keto?


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## 2004mark

ausbuilt said:


> lotus exige s; now with cup260 tune- looking to change injectors/pulley and intercooler (mod it to air/water rather than air/air) and tune to move from 260hp to 300 rwhp..
> 
> But.. first things first, i need to take the front clam of to repair some front end fibreglass damage ;-)
> 
> currently 867kg with i/2 tank fuel on scales.. all fluids, no driver.


Completely OT; but that'd be a very interesting race there... very similar power to weight. Love the gearbox in those Exige's btw.


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## ausbuilt

j1mmytt said:


> nice nice, which tracks do ya go to?
> 
> quick question too, can i eat sweets post workout with my shake on a keto?


I'm from oz, i've done eastern creek, wakefield, philip island etc; only done silverstone here so far, but car only arrived a few months back (yes I shipped it..) I plan on doing a few tracks here.. stelvio and nurburgring this spring/summer..

back to keto

I do my carb up pre-work out, to have full muscle glycogen, then workout to DEPLETE the muscle glycogen.. so post workout i have water based ZERO carb whey shake with a little MCT oil, along with my insulin to drive remaining carbs and the new amino's into the worked out muscle.. without spiking BG- i'm usually at about 6.2 at this point.

Yes, you can have sweets after your workout with your shake... but then when is your next carb up? if its the next day, you're making it hard to get back in keto, even with 'slin..


----------



## ausbuilt

2004mark said:


> Completely OT; but that'd be a very interesting race there... very similar power to weight. Love the gearbox in those Exige's btw.


Z's are a bit heavy through the corners.. but could be a good drift display!

You know exige S/cup gearboxes are just toyota boxes with cable shift right?? I like it too don't get me wrong, but honda s2000 has an amazing shift feel.. and porsche 996/997 series are so light you can really move through the gears too.. and precisely!


----------



## j1mmytt

ausbuilt said:


> Z's are a bit heavy through the corners.. but could be a good drift display!
> 
> You know exige S/cup gearboxes are just toyota boxes with cable shift right?? I like it too don't get me wrong, but honda s2000 has an amazing shift feel.. and porsche 996/997 series are so light you can really move through the gears too.. and precisely!


see thats what everyone thinks, 300zx heavy car etc, at 1400kg its not at all, how much does a porsche 911 turbo weigh or a 911 gt3? yep it weighs more  and mine has more or less the same power to weight soooooooo its very quick through the corners now especially the longer ones  and i have lots of gadgets on it to help me. I have only come across one exige that I could barely keep up with, it had around 350bhp and lots of aero mods. Excellent car it was, we had a little chat afterwards too in the pits.


----------



## martin brown

ausbuilt said:


> Well FOURTEEN weeks... fast, but not that fast, and...
> 
> Yes mate, AND I reckon you could do the same. Do a search on a thread titled "metformin" where I answer some of Hacksii's q's.
> 
> ...................
> 
> Next week I start a new journal, as I'm getting serious and adding PGF2a (lutalyse) to my protocol....
> 
> Still think I'm kidding myself? question is do you you have the dediication to give it a try?


Yeah I realised you said 14 weeks. Even so you didn't gain 22lbs of muscle in 14 weeks whilst losing 23lbs of fat - not matter how much drug use you hide behind!

Or, if you did, I'll see you in twelve months where you are 66lbs of lean muscle heavier and sub 5% BF. So you'll be 280lbs shredded  Easy lol.


----------



## Virtus

ausbuilt said:


> I carb up daily, 6 days per week, as I do 6 weights workouts per week, and i want to be fully carbed to get a great pump and feed the muscle. I keep sundays as a free day (no official cardio or weights, but i usually end up doing MMA training/sparring with friends), and I could carb up all day... but in the end I just crave normal meals? and just eat whatever I feel like.. believe it or not... that means i have a protein shake with milk and some ice cream- feels like luxury!! or some fruit salad laced with glayva or grandmarnier.... I have odd cravings.. generally i don't go overboard because oddly on my CKD I'm NEVER hungry.. and I'm sick of carb loading 6 days a week... so no, i don't do a "proper" carb load on sunday...


How can you carb load every night and claim to be on a CKD. There is no way you have full depltion of muscle glycogen with one workout; you may be on TKD consuming carbs directly after a workout.


----------



## j1mmytt

Ok i have finished my last workout of the week (legs) im about to begin my first carb load...... Haven't eaten a carb since xmas..... here goes...... we sure about this?


----------



## ausbuilt

Virtus said:


> How can you carb load every night and claim to be on a CKD. There is no way you have full depltion of muscle glycogen with one workout; you may be on TKD consuming carbs directly after a workout.


You're kind of right... i carb up for 4 hours, consuming between 250 and 350g of carbs; then work out to carb deplete the muscles (its why i do 6 weights workouts every night, followed by fasted cardio every morning) but the truth is, as i note in a post answering hackskii, insulin+thyroid+AAS forces the body into low BG (fasted under 5.6), and both compounds force the body to retain amino's and use them for protein synthesis instead of gluconoegenesis, leaving ketosis the only possible fuel for the krebs cycle.. its the use of drugs to FORCE the metabolism to switch krebs cycle pathways each drug alone wouldn't do it, its a multiple attack on the body to force it to work differently.. effectively making ketosis possible without technically being fully glycogen depleted (normally you can't get INTO ketosis until this happens, metformin accelerates this process, but insulin FORCES the process (and if you **** up you're likely to go seriously hypo.. don't forget i built up to 4iu WITHOUT carbs... its the anabolic effects of insulin + AAS + thyroid that force the body through numerous processes to retain aminos, AND remaining muscle glycogen within the cells and not release them for energy, which MAKES the body move to ketosis (its the third, and least preferred entry pathway to the krebs cycle, as I've posted before...

So yes, you have a valid point, except its the combination of drugs that allows an accelerated CKD...

An easy example of HOW POWERFUL 'slin is at FORCING your body to do something:

-everyone knows if you take to much 'slin, and not enough carbs- you can go into a hypoglycaemic coma. What does this mean? It means that the 'slin takes all the glucose in the blood and FORCES it into the muscles/liver/fat cells, even though there is not enough carbs for the brain to burn for energy- DESPITE having to shut DOWN (ie go into a coma) and possibly DIE, your body WILL NOT release the glucose from the muscle while the excess 'slin is circulating...

if you manage this process to stop JUST short of this (like i do with carbless 'slin intake) the body will NOT release carbs for energy purposes..the 'slin+t4+ AAS also means that the body is FORCED to retain amino's for protein synthesis NOT gluconeogenesis (energy)...so it ONLY leaves ketosis...

its a fine line.. to much 'slin, and you need to take dextrose to prevent hypo, and ruin your chance of keto, but JUST enough 'slin forces the body to retain carbs, and move QUICKLY to keto for energy...


----------



## ausbuilt

martin brown said:


> Yeah I realised you said 14 weeks. Even so you didn't gain 22lbs of muscle in 14 weeks whilst losing 23lbs of fat - not matter how much drug use you hide behind!
> 
> Or, if you did, I'll see you in twelve months where you are 66lbs of lean muscle heavier and sub 5% BF. So you'll be 280lbs shredded  Easy lol.


actually I'm shooting for 242lb at 7-8%, and by summer..

Too accelerate the process I'm adding PGF2a to my protocol next week... (starting a journal for that one!)


----------



## dtlv

ausbuilt said:


> actually I'm shooting for 242lb at 7-8%, and by summer..
> 
> Too accelerate the process I'm adding PGF2a to my protocol next week... (starting a journal for that one!)


ausbuilt - just a question out of curiosity really, but have you ever followed a keto diet without any chemical assistance? If so, how would you quantify the difference in terms of amount of fat you can lose/muscle you can gain over a similar time period?


----------



## j1mmytt

so far so good, havent used the best source of carbs, had some potatoes, carrots, wheat pasta, crappy simple oats (girlfriends) oh and sweets an hour or so after my workout.... wierd coz i wasnt even craving them at all felt like i had to force them down me. I started ephedrine yesterday, the chest ez type. Dont think it was a great idea lol i went over board, last night i went clubbing and god knows how many i popped lol my mate had these ephedrine tabs from Canada which have 8mg in each on,e so those combined with the 18mg you have in the chest ez meant i had one crazy night lol i actually felt like i was on ecstasy. I think they have supressed my appitite a little too much however.


----------



## ausbuilt

j1mmytt said:


> sweets an hour or so after my workout.... wierd coz i wasnt even craving them at all felt like i had to force them down me. I started ephedrine yesterday, the chest ez type. Dont think it was a great idea lol i went over board, last night i went clubbing and god knows how many i popped lol my mate had these ephedrine tabs from Canada which have 8mg in each on,e so those combined with the 18mg you have in the chest ez meant i had one crazy night lol i actually felt like i was on ecstasy. I think they have supressed my appitite a little too much however.


hmm, loads of carbs and loads of ephedrine... jumping out of your skin all night! if you do this often, and don't want to down regulate your receptors:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1964319

and

http://forums.steroid.com/archive/index.php/t-538.html

take ketotifen..


----------



## j1mmytt

ausbuilt said:


> hmm, loads of carbs and loads of ephedrine... jumping out of your skin all night! if you do this often, and don't want to down regulate your receptors:
> 
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1964319
> 
> and
> 
> http://forums.steroid.com/archive/index.php/t-538.html
> 
> take ketotifen..


Sorry aus your well out of my league can you explain what you mean in simple terms for me? il only be taking 2 tabs of chest ez a day, yesterday was a one off.


----------



## Conscript

Aussie,

If you were doing a 4 day spilt instead of 6, would you still take the slin on the other 3 days (non workout), if so when would you take it and how much? And do you take metformin 7 days a week?


----------



## SHAROOTS

Ausbuilt what is your diet mate? I've started keto 3 days and I'm also looking aas cycle to aid in the cut and not lose much muscle, thing is I've never taking insulin and don't want to until I'm 100% certain about taking it. Could you suggest another aas cycle that would work well with keto?


----------



## j1mmytt

Nice thread hijack.....


----------



## ausbuilt

G-fresh said:


> Aussie,
> 
> If you were doing a 4 day spilt instead of 6, would you still take the slin on the other 3 days (non workout), if so when would you take it and how much? And do you take metformin 7 days a week?


Hi G,

no I wouldn't; I only take the 'slin to push nutrients into the muscle pre and post workout; no workout, no 'slin. I also wouldn't carb up on non-workout days, so no need to reduce BG fast, as it should already be low..

I don't use metformin any more (not saying i won't in the future) but I moved to 'slin because:

1. VERY anabolic (retains amino's as well as carbs)

see:

Physiological effects

The actions of insulin on cells include:

Increased glycogen synthesis - insulin forces storage of glucose in liver (and muscle) cells in the form of glycogen; lowered levels of insulin cause liver cells to convert glycogen to glucose and excrete it into the blood. This is the clinical action of insulin, which is directly useful in reducing high blood glucose levels as in diabetes.

Increased fatty acid synthesis - insulin forces fat cells to take in blood lipids, which are converted to triglycerides; lack of insulin causes the reverse.

Increased esterification of fatty acids - forces adipose tissue to make fats (i.e., triglycerides) from fatty acid esters; lack of insulin causes the reverse.

Decreased proteolysis - decreasing the breakdown of protein.

Decreased lipolysis - forces reduction in conversion of fat cell lipid stores into blood fatty acids; lack of insulin causes the reverse.

Decreased gluconeogenesis - decreases production of glucose from non-sugar substrates, primarily in the liver (remember, the vast majority of endogenous insulin arriving at the liver never leaves the liver); lack of insulin causes glucose production from assorted substrates in the liver and elsewhere.

Decreased autophagy - decreased level of degradation of damaged organelles. Postprandial levels inhibit autophagy completely.[18]

Increased amino acid uptake - forces cells to absorb circulating amino acids; lack of insulin inhibits absorption.

Increased potassium uptake - forces cells to absorb serum potassium; lack of insulin inhibits absorption. Insulin's increase in cellular potassium uptake lowers potassium levels in blood.

Arterial muscle tone - forces arterial wall muscle to relax, increasing blood flow, especially in micro arteries; lack of insulin reduces flow by allowing these muscles to contract.

Increase in the secretion of hydrochloric acid by Parietal cells in the stomach.

2. VERY powerful for FORCING the body to retain carbs and aminos and NOT burn them for energy- FORCED HI SPEED KETOSIS (with T4 and AAS)

-as an example, if you take to much 'slin, you can go hypo, and eventually into a hypo coma- what does this mean? it means by adding extra 'slin, your body moves all carbs and aminos to your muslce, fat and liver cells, and even though the brain HAS NO GLUCOSE to burn for energy, the body DOES NOT release any glucose back into the blood to be used for energy... the body will actually rather die (brain death) than release carbs when 'slin is still circulating (its why YOU MUST take in glucose to prevent hypo coma, as the body will not release glucose..)

How amazing is that??? the body would prefer to die than release carbs for energy... if you stop just below a "hypo" situation, your body quickly moves to ketosis.. it HAS NO choice..

this is a POWERFUL hormone that FORCES your body to do certain things- by adding insulin without carbs you are playing A POWERFUL METABOLIC TRICK.

its not for everyone, but make no mistake, 'slin is a whole different planet from metformin in what it forces your body to do...

met is stil excellent, and safe! so better for most..

3. 'slin INCREASES the number of GH receptors.... and I'm taking GH

SO there's the 3 reasons I've moved from met to 'slin; however, i don't say thats right for everyone- depends on your goals etc; I only put this info up for discussion, and to show the tools available to make significant changes to a body in a way not many people realised was possible.

GH, AAS, thyroid and 'slin are ALL very powerful hormones, but 'slin is the only one that can FORCE your body to so radically do something (retain carbs for cellular filling rather than energy) that you can die despite having carbs in your system!

IF you're using met; only use it on the days you've carbed up to move into ketosis faster; once your BG is under 5.6 there's no need to use met, so you may not need it every day.


----------



## SHAROOTS

j1mmytt said:


> Nice thread hijack.....


Is that towards me?


----------



## ausbuilt

Dtlv74 said:


> ausbuilt - just a question out of curiosity really, but have you ever followed a keto diet without any chemical assistance? If so, how would you quantify the difference in terms of amount of fat you can lose/muscle you can gain over a similar time period?


first keto diet I tried was by michael zumpano... i lost fat, and some muscle, not much though (but I was on AAS, have never dieted without AAS as you WILL lose muscle). it had a monthly re-feed.

The second keto diet I tried was BodyOpus By dan duchaine, and he introduced the use of metformin- and a weekly carb up; I also gained a little muscle on this diet (prob only 1-2kg) but lost fat- placed 4th (best i managed) in state level show on this diet. I was in good condition, but my lats where significantly lagging from a show perspective..

basically dieting is catabolic; the Cyclic diets try to compensate for this by carbing up and "rebounding" the muscle...

but as the bodyopus book said:

1. you'll retain more muscle with AAS

2. you'll lose more fat with thyroid

3. met makes the cyclic keto diet work better.

with the greater amount of knowledge around now I would add:

4. GH increases fat loss immensely

5. Insulin is INCREDIBLY anabolic and CAN FORCE amazing changes in your metabolism...

if i have a headache, I'll take aspirin, if I go to the dentist I'll have anasthetic, if I want to relax on a night out, i'll have a drink... they're all drugs to "assist" a goal..


----------



## j1mmytt

erm receptors? my thread my thread.....


----------



## ausbuilt

j1mmytt said:


> Sorry aus your well out of my league can you explain what you mean in simple terms for me? il only be taking 2 tabs of chest ez a day, yesterday was a one off.


no probs.

Basically you may read/hear that ECA stack wears of eventually (some say 2 weeks on 2weeks of); if you take ketotifen it keeps your receptors ALWAYS available to bind to your ephedrine, so you can take it as long as you want without losing the effect...

As for the first comment- lots of sugar and stimulants (ephedrine) would make an absolute firecraker on a night out! LOL

my "one of" party nights sometimes run from thrus-sun ;-)


----------



## ausbuilt

j1mmytt said:


> erm receptors? my thread my thread.....


I can only type so fast! LOL


----------



## j1mmytt

ausbuilt said:


> no probs.
> 
> Basically you may read/hear that ECA stack wears of eventually (some say 2 weeks on 2weeks of); if you take ketotifen it keeps your receptors ALWAYS available to bind to your ephedrine, so you can take it as long as you want without losing the effect...
> 
> As for the first comment- lots of sugar and stimulants (ephedrine) would make an absolute firecraker on a night out! LOL
> 
> my "one of" party nights sometimes run from thrus-sun ;-)


ah that makes sense thanks mate 

Fountain of knowledge and all that......


----------



## ausbuilt

SHAROOTS said:


> Ausbuilt what is your diet mate? I've started keto 3 days and I'm also looking aas cycle to aid in the cut and not lose much muscle, thing is I've never taking insulin and don't want to until I'm 100% certain about taking it. Could you suggest another aas cycle that would work well with keto?


Hi Sharoots:

My diet is keto, but involves carbing up daily, working out, then back into keto all in the same day- I use 'slin to make this possible.

There is NO NEED to use 'slin, if you follow a keto diet and carb-up once or twice a week, you can use metformin very well and get great result.

I ONLY talk about 'slin use for those that want to carb up more frequently- it is more radical. Another member here, MXD manages to carb up before and after his workout and NOT get out of keto!! with 'slin of course... slightly different to me, but the whole point is 'slin is super-powerful and useful where you have a specific time based requirement to move in/out of keto.

ANy AAS cycle works with keto. you don't need anything more than test to keep your muscles in a positive nitrogen balance. ALL AASs stop your body excreting nitrogen (the "N" in -NH3 that is the "amine group" of an amino acid.. i.e makes your body keep amino acids, not burn them for energy or excrete them).

so, I take 1000mg test/week and 800mg tren e and 100mg var/day when blasting, and 500mg test when cruising. I'll probably be moving from Var to anadrol-50 to look fuller (increased plasma volume, not water retention) at 150mg/day.

but nothing magic there- AAS just keep Nitrogen in your body- its the insulin and thryroid that use the extra aminos for protein syntheses (muscle building)...


----------



## ausbuilt

j1mmytt said:


> ah that makes sense thanks mate
> 
> Fountain of knowledge and all that......


no probs, I have no life and all that.. ;-)


----------



## dtlv

ausbuilt said:


> first keto diet I tried was by michael zumpano... i lost fat, and some muscle, not much though (but I was on AAS, have never dieted without AAS as you WILL lose muscle). it had a monthly re-feed.
> 
> The second keto diet I tried was BodyOpus By dan duchaine, and he introduced the use of metformin- and a weekly carb up; I also gained a little muscle on this diet (prob only 1-2kg) but lost fat- placed 4th (best i managed) in state level show on this diet. I was in good condition, but my lats where significantly lagging from a show perspective..
> 
> basically dieting is catabolic; the Cyclic diets try to compensate for this by carbing up and "rebounding" the muscle...
> 
> but as the bodyopus book said:
> 
> 1. you'll retain more muscle with AAS
> 
> 2. you'll lose more fat with thyroid
> 
> 3. met makes the cyclic keto diet work better.
> 
> with the greater amount of knowledge around now I would add:
> 
> 4. GH increases fat loss immensely
> 
> 5. Insulin is INCREDIBLY anabolic and CAN FORCE amazing changes in your metabolism...
> 
> if i have a headache, I'll take aspirin, if I go to the dentist I'll have anasthetic, if I want to relax on a night out, i'll have a drink... they're all drugs to "assist" a goal..


Thanks aus. I'm natty (with no aspirations to compete and not strictly a bb'er anyway) but a physiology nerd soon to embark on a masters, and find the modifying effects of chemical assistance fascinating, and spend a lot of time researching. Some of your recent posts have been very interesting and thoughtful. Have followed keto only once, and came to pretty much the same conclusion as yourself - that it's a muscle waster diet without some 'help'.

I don't like caloric restriction either for muscle gain for a natty - is not impossible, but you can only gain very very slowly and inefficiently, but I find muscle retention easier on a non carb restricted calorie restriction.

From my perspective though, the best route to staying lean and gaining quality muscle over time is to take the clean/lean bulk approach - no drastic bulk/cut cycles, definitely no significant carb reduction like keto, and just getting to a b/f level you are happy with (nowadays I hover around 9-10%) and carefully controlling kcals to ensure enough energy to cover metabolic needs (including growth) and activity levels.

Cycling carbohydrate intake does definitely make the process easier during caloric restriction if choosing the bulk/cut route, and in the assisted athlete the logic of insulin and GH use I think is very sound indeed. Metaformin is also a very safe drug if used properly.

As above though, my advice to a natty who chose the keto approach would be to follow a CKD. TKD is also far better than straight keto.


----------



## Dig

Aus, maybe i arent reading it right but are you saying as soon as BG levels are under 5.6mmol/L then you know you're in ketosis?? re this comment 'by 11pm my BG is under 5.6mmoL/L... i go to bed in keto'.

Just wondered as ive read different opinions about using BG levels as sign of ketosis, some say is not reliable and most others i see generally say under 3.8mmol/L or so.

What do you do for a job to be able to get all shots etc in at those times??

Interesting thread!!


----------



## ausbuilt

Dig said:


> Aus, maybe i arent reading it right but are you saying as soon as BG levels are under 5.6mmol/L then you know you're in ketosis?? re this comment 'by 11pm my BG is under 5.6mmoL/L... i go to bed in keto'.
> 
> well somewhere between 10:30-11:00 i'm below 5.6; perhaps I'm not in keto right at that moment, but I definitely am at 7am. However, i've been to lazy to see at what time exactly i register on keto stix.. see below
> 
> Just wondered as ive read different opinions about using BG levels as sign of ketosis, some say is not reliable and most others i see generally say under 3.8mmol/L or so.
> 
> for keto, your body needs to think its starving; this process starts at 5.6-5.8mmol/L. even if I register deep purple on keto stix i can be at 5.0mmoL; its rare I get down to 3.8, as I'm worried I might go hypo as I get from 7.0 to 5.0 in minutes with 'slin.. it took some experimenting food/timing to get the dosage right... and sometimes when i do legs (or sometimes other workout) more intenesely then usual, i can get a little hypo on what is normally an OK 'slin dose...
> 
> don't forget that 'slin is that powerful at retaining carbs, that even as you go hypo, on your way to a coma/death, the 'slin will prevent your body from releasing carbs for the brain to use as fuel.. THIS is an UNNATURAL occurance, as in nature it would be IMPOSSIBLE for this to happen (i.e slin is released in RESPONSE to sugars consumed, not the other way around..)
> 
> this is why I can manipulate ketosis so much- with AAS+thyroid+'slin, the body retains aminos and carbs, SO STRONGLY it has no choice but to use ketosis for fuel... the balancing act is enough 'slin to FORCE this change, but NOT ENOUGH to go hypo...
> 
> POWERFUL? yes.. SAFE?...depends on how fine a knife edge you play on...
> 
> What do you do for a job to be able to get all shots etc in at those times??
> 
> i work in a small financial services firm (a variation of a hedge fund); i keep food in my draw, and my novopen 4 in my jacket pocket like any other pen... i do my shots in the mens room, along with passing water as I drink a few litres a day (always a bottle on my desk) know one blinks when i go to the mens room. at the gym i take a shot in cubicle as well post workout. I don't use a swab, just jab the pen
> 
> Interesting thread!!


----------



## The Ultimate Warrior

Some fantastic posts here


----------



## j1mmytt

Quick Question: Would I include my post workout shake in my daily calorie count?


----------



## 2004mark

j1mmytt said:


> Quick Question: Would I include my post workout shake in my daily calorie count?


Yep


----------



## j1mmytt

2004mark said:


> Yep


including the carbs?


----------



## 2004mark

j1mmytt said:


> including the carbs?


Yes mate. It's food, you eat it so you count it.


----------



## j1mmytt

I have been consuming around 1800cals a day im 77kg with 12% am i consuming too little........ Just read somewhere that it may be too little... hmmmm


----------



## Virtus

That probably my mistake when i gave you them quick calculations, us the following link to give you a more accurate calculation http://www.bmi-calculator.net/bmr-calculator/


----------



## Robbyg

First carb up today and have been reading some good info. 5hrs before final w/o eat about 25-50g carbs +25g protein and some fats to stop spike also 2hrs before eat some fruit.Then time to eat lots of carbs over 36hrs first 24hrs about 10g per kg of lbm then 5g lbm next 12hrs with fats and protein 15-15 ratio and carbs 70 hope this works lol


----------



## ausbuilt

Robbyg said:


> First carb up today and have been reading some good info. 5hrs before final w/o eat about 25-50g carbs +25g protein and some fats to stop spike also 2hrs before eat some fruit.Then time to eat lots of carbs over 36hrs first 24hrs about 10g per kg of lbm then 5g lbm next 12hrs with fats and protein 15-15 ratio and carbs 70 hope this works lol


i would have thought you WANT the insulin spike- on any refeed as the idea is to super-compensate and fill the muscle with glycogen and its 'slin that does this..


----------



## Virtus

Robbyg said:


> First carb up today and have been reading some good info. 5hrs before final w/o eat about 25-50g carbs +25g protein and some fats to stop spike also 2hrs before eat some fruit.Then time to eat lots of carbs over 36hrs first 24hrs about 10g per kg of lbm then 5g lbm next 12hrs with fats and protein 15-15 ratio and carbs 70 hope this works lol


Thats correct mate, the fruit refills the glycogen in the liver.



ausbuilt said:


> i would have thought you WANT the insulin spike- on any refeed as the idea is to super-compensate and fill the muscle with glycogen and its 'slin that does this..


He will, the carb up will start immediatley after the last workout. The small amount of carbs 4 hours prior is to shift the body out of ketosis enabling full glycogen resynthesis during the carb load


----------



## Robbyg

Had my first lot of carbs now 2hrs before last w/o will have some more fruit Then some more after w/o and then 1 hr later carbs and protein or do you think i should have protein as well after w/o ?


----------



## Virtus

Protein with carbs directly after a workout


----------



## Robbyg

Thanks buddy  i thought so but wanted to check now i can relax and eat lol


----------



## Doink

the carb up does you good mate.

Keeps you training harder and as a result you can burn more fat and spare more muscle, it's really worth doing if only for the psychological benefits.

The more sh1t i eat in the early stages of my carb load phase i.e pot gym thursday PM, the leaner i got/am getting. I initially viewed it as counter productive but as i got leaner i switched from more of a harsh outlook to one more of maintenance and gradual fat loss. I seemed to lose more fat though, strange.

Don't always see dieting harder as getting to your goal quicker, there's many processes involved.. have a read of the ultimate diet 2.0, there's some great information in there in how the body goes about cutting fat and methods you can use to ensure it stays at it's optimal throughout the diet.


----------



## flynnie11

ausbuilt, do u take anything to keep blood pressure down on a cycle like that?


----------



## ausbuilt

flynnie11 said:


> ausbuilt, do u take anything to keep blood pressure down on a cycle like that?


because I'm in my 40s... yes I do; and it has two benefits:

1. Keep blood pressure at the low end of normal (but NOT low)

2. Increased fat loss!

See I take Enalapril (vasotec) at 20mg/day (well i take it before bed). Its an Angio tensin II inhibitor (ACE inhibitor), now it turns out that a SIDE EFFECT of this class of drug is that it STOPS the re-generation of Beta 2 adrenergic receptors- the ones in problem fat areas... normally people take yohimbine HCL to bind to these to move the fat... but a combination of enalapril and yohimbine means that they are being bound, and being stopped from regrowing! great for fat loss in stubborn areas (women's asses included!).

You ease into the enalapril, but on the bright side, it can't lower your BP lower than normal...

So, I would take it for the fat loss alone, its useful for lowering BP as well... generally I don't have a rise in BP with large amounts of test as I take an AI (arimidex, 1mg EOD) which keeps me in a low oestrogen state.... and means i don't retain water, so no BP increase... however, I plan on taking oxy (at 150mg/day) in 2 weeks time, so even thought the AI will stop a BP increase from water retention.. oxy has another issue- it increases your BP by increasing your plasma (blood) volume! so I would def keep taking the BP med with oxy, even if not for the fat loss..


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