# Gain lean mass - not weight for its own sake!



## Prodiver

Many on UK-M seem to be obsessed with gaining weight!

I'm sure what they really want is to gain maximum lean muscle mass as soon as possible.

While of course you need to eat sufficient food to grow, it's a mistake - and a waste of time and money - to bulk up only to have to shed fat!

It's perfectly possible to gain lean muscle mass and lose fat at the same time.

*Don't listen to all the stuff about how many calories you must eat.* Sure you need to eat plenty, but the actual numbers are irrelevant because your daily life, workout intensity and even the ambient temperature, etc. vary significantly: you cannot know how many calories you will need in advance, and you cannot accurately calculate your calorie intake and utilization anyway!

Approach your bodybuilding diet in a different, simple, pragmatic way:

Eat sufficient protein to grow: 2 gms per kg actual bodyweight per day will give you a good margin. (47% of unused protein is turned to carbs.) Eat loads of meat, whole eggs, fish, cheese, milk, and top up with shakes.

Then don't worry about eating good fats. Some will be in your protein foods, but also eat real butter, salad dressings and mayo, peanut butter. Good fats are essential for vitamin and gear utilization.

Then eat only just enough carbs for energy to power your daily life and intense workouts, and no more. This will train your bod to use its fat stores first and most efficiently. It's your carb intake that determines your fat storage.

Get your carbs mostly from salads, vegetables and fruit, and then from potatoes, rice, wholemeal bread and pasta. The quicker carbs will provide energy when you need it but be metabolized fast and direct your bod back to its fat reserves.

Before working out eat protein and a little carbs for energy, and the same after working out for the insulin spike to drive the nutrients into your system. The carbs can be anything fast like fruit or a mars bar. The after-workout protein and carbs can be a main meal.

You do not need to eat little and often, as a paper cited on UK-M a while back showed. 3 main meals a day will work fine, You can have your top-up shakes, and a little carbs, such as fruit, as necessary, between meals.

Eat a protein, fat and carbs meal before bed, like a tuna or chicken wholemeal sandwich or a shake and some fruit, to stay anabolic. Then don't eat breakfast when you get up, but a couple of hours later when you've done some travelling, work or cardio and your bod has tapped its fat reserves.

If you lack power and are generally tired, especially on work-out days, up your carbs a little until you have ample energy; if you are not losing flab or are getting porkier, back the carbs off. Once you get the balance right it only takes a day or so to see the difference in the mirror.

You'll quickly "know" how much carbs to eat and can vary how much and what to eat meal by meal.

Using this approach you have to calculate nothing except your rising protein intake as you gain lean mass, but you will be able to lose flab at the same time and yet can eat almost anything.

Please note this is not a finely-gauged contest prep diet! For that, consult an expert.


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## Dantreadz85

pro diver give me this advice maybe a month or so a go an it works great , strength is going up still and am losing weight . the best bit is food does not seem like a hassle or a choir to get it all right constantly . as long as theres anough protein i just eat when hungry .

i dont think ill ever count calories again to be honest


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## SK-XO

Thanks for that m8. Mainly what I've been looking for tbh, Hate bulking up makes me bloated, bagged, wattery, and fat gain.

You reckon you could help me out with my diet for this type of approach? I could post my current diet and you could have a peer? Cheers.

Also if it's 2g to kg of bodyweight, im around 97kg, so just under 200g of protein? would this not be a little low for muscle growth?


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## ba baracuss

Common sense that will no doubt be shot down in flames by the 'thou must eat 300g+ of protein a day, 5000 calories and 10 litres of water' numpties.

Any idiot can eat loads of calories and kid themself that weight gain=muscle gain. Most will then 'cut' and lose some of the muscle they gained on their 'bulk'.


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## chrisj22

Very good post.

I told someone on another thread a few days ago to stop being obsessed in weight - go off the mirror, it's a very honest view.


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## Guest

Nice post sexy.


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## Tinytom

Agree with most of this but theres a few issues that need addressing.

Firstly - Fats - you do need to consume more essential fats if you are a hard trainer, you cant rely on getting it just from food unless you are meticulous with eating an array fo seeds, nuts and oily fish.

Olice Oil especially I have found is a key element in keeping me leaner due to its metabolism raising properties.

Carbs - relying on carbs from fruits and veg is a risky process, especially as most of the carbs from veg will be negative calories i.e. you will burn more calories digesting them than you get from them.

Also fruit sugar is more easily metabolised than others into fat and although doesnt give an insulin spike like refined sugar you are still talking about utilising a fast sugar for energy long term which long term will actually cause the body to rely more on this method and you may find more episodes of low blood sugar.

Utilising a diet primarily of complex carbs and then secondary sugars in the form of fruit is a preferable method as you'd be setting a base of energy with the complex carbs and can 'top up' with a banana or such if you feel lagging. Constantly topping up with simple sugars is a firefighting or reactionary diet method and not good long term for bodybuilders.

Not saying you're wrong as theres many ways to do things.


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## mick_the_brick

Nice post PD 

Reps on the way when recharged.


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## Tinytom

As an addition I'd like to say I agree that super calorie consumption is a dated and unhealthy way to gain muscle.

So the general premise of what PD has said is very correct, only eat if you are hungry. If you want to eat more then train harder so you have that hunger to eat.


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## Nemises

Nice post.


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## Prodiver

Tinytom said:


> Agree with most of this but theres a few issues that need addressing.
> 
> Firstly - Fats - you do need to consume more essential fats if you are a hard trainer, you cant rely on getting it just from food unless you are meticulous with eating an array fo seeds, nuts and oily fish.
> 
> Olice Oil especially I have found is a key element in keeping me leaner due to its metabolism raising properties.
> 
> Carbs - relying on carbs from fruits and veg is a risky process, especially as most of the carbs from veg will be negative calories i.e. you will burn more calories digesting them than you get from them.
> 
> Also fruit sugar is more easily metabolised than others into fat and although doesnt give an insulin spike like refined sugar you are still talking about utilising a fast sugar for energy long term which long term will actually cause the body to rely more on this method and you may find more episodes of low blood sugar.
> 
> Utilising a diet primarily of complex carbs and then secondary sugars in the form of fruit is a preferable method as you'd be setting a base of energy with the complex carbs and can 'top up' with a banana or such if you feel lagging. Constantly topping up with simple sugars is a firefighting or reactionary diet method and not good long term for bodybuilders.
> 
> Not saying you're wrong as theres many ways to do things.


Tom I bow to your knowledge and contradict nothing. I simply emphasize the fast carbs as I observe that most guys tend to eat sufficient slow complex carbs anyway, and sometimes cannot back off the carbs enough, and the idea is to control the total amount of carbs.

I agree absolutely about olive oil - and love it: that's why I recommend salad dressings and mayo - which of course are rich in it. You also get essential fats and oils in the fish, cheese, eggs and butter.


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## Suprakill4

Excellent thread PD. You touched on this through PM so im glad to read this. I think i am going to give this a shot. I was one of the "the more calories the better" people, but having looked at this, it makes perfect sense.

Why add loads of fat just to try and shift it when cutting next.

It will also be ALOT easier for me as my apetite isnt at its best at the moment.

Some well earned reps on there way dude!!


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## chh

Intresting but this throws everything ive been reading about bulking/gaining muscle for the past year out the window


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## bengilbertuk

Do you mean eating **** loads of oats and eggs and shakes in the morning is not needed? (Sorry im new)


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## GSleigh

BUt who eats to excess just shoving caries down to get as big as possible?

I know i worked from a set point. Say 3000 calories and accessed its impact on my body then kept upping it until i was happy with results i was seeing? I can guess most people work in this fashion and gain their calories from positive good sources?

Thanks


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## jassdhali

Pro, does that mean I dont have to eat 6 meals a day to keep my metabolism hyper? 3-4 slightly larger meals are okay??


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## bengilbertuk

after reading all day im so so confused


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## jassdhali

Lol I know how you feel.. we need clarity guys. I know many ppl will say whatever works for you is the best, but more clarity from the more learned members greatly appreciated. Pretty please


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## stevo99

could someone post a typical diet based on this??


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## Prodiver

Dantreadz85 said:


> pro diver give me this advice maybe a month or so a go an it works great , *strength is going up still and am losing weight *. the best bit is food does not seem like a hassle or a choir to get it all right constantly . as long as theres anough protein i just eat when hungry .
> 
> i dont think ill ever count calories again to be honest


I hope you're actually losing flab but keeping or gaining lean muscle!


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## Prodiver

bengilbertuk said:


> Do you mean eating **** loads of oats and eggs and shakes in the morning is not needed? (Sorry im new)


No.

But after you've been up and doing for a while have a really good breakfast of protein, fats and carbs - for instance 6 eggs on buttered wholemeal toast; or bacon or ham or steak and eggs with hash brownies. Or oat porridge and a protein shakea with some peanut butter.

But control the amount of carbs you eat!


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## Prodiver

GSleigh said:


> BUt who eats to excess just shoving caries down to get as big as possible?
> 
> I know i worked from a set point. Say 3000 calories and accessed its impact on my body then kept upping it until i was happy with results i was seeing? I can guess most people work in this fashion and gain their calories from positive good sources?
> 
> Thanks


Yes - but the actual numbers are meaningless - read my original post!


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## Prodiver

jassdhali said:


> Pro, does that mean I dont have to eat 6 meals a day to keep my metabolism hyper? 3-4 slightly larger meals are okay??


Yes - the paper cited showed that eating more frequently does not increase your metabolism overall.

Eating 3 meals with exactly the same amounts of nutrients as 6 smaller meals has exactly the same metabolic effect.


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## Prodiver

jassdhali said:


> Lol I know how you feel.. we need clarity guys. I know many ppl will say whatever works for you is the best, but more clarity from the more learned members greatly appreciated. Pretty please


The idea that we all differ greatly in what works is erroneous - we're much more similar in our reaction to foods and gear than people like to believe - that's how medicine and drugs can be reasonably safely predictable.

Never use how we differ as an excuse for lack of results - it's much more likely to be different intensity of workouts, or bad technique, or actually different diet...


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## wes

I can see the logic in your post PD and like it. However, there is a science to bb and even though it's best the keep things simple I believe many need the good old scientific approach especially when knew to the sport.

That said I would take the principles of your post and use in conjuction with the tried and tested ways. You get the best of both then.


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## bengilbertuk

i have read your post is there a guideline for how many carbs u have or when you just feel out of energy?


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## Prodiver

wes said:


> I can see the logic in your post PD and like it. However, there is a science to bb and even though it's best the keep things simple I believe many need *the good old scientific approach* especially when knew to the sport.
> 
> That said I would take the principles of your post and use in conjuction with the tried and tested ways. You get the best of both then.


Problem is the approach isn't scientific at all! It's pseudo scientific!

You cannot possibly know your calorie needs from bodyweight, nor in advance what calories your day will demand.

You cannot accurately assess your actual calorie intake, nor know what the percentage utilization is.

And you cannot know what percentage of any calories ought to be protein, fats and carbs.

So calorie figures are in fact meaningless.

Feeling your muscles and looking in the mirror are far better guides!


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## Prodiver

God said:


> You say only eat when hungry. Does this mean that you believe that excess calories are not required to build muscle?


Calories do NOT build muscle. Period.

Only protein is metabolized into muscle.

Calories only provide energy to ilve and work out.

ALL excess calories are stored as fat.


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## Prodiver

bengilbertuk said:


> i have read your post is there a guideline for how many carbs u have or when you just feel out of energy?


If you're not porky or not getting porkier, your carb intake must be generally in the right ballpark.

You need to eat enough protein and fats, but any excess will be turned into energy, so as you increase your protein and fat intake (mainly from food) with your gain in lean mass, you will need to control - limit - your carbs to avoid storing fat.

Of course as Tom says, the harder you work out the greater will be your energy - and carb - requirements.


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## asl

This is an awesome post, but like others have said it has turned what I have been doing on its head! I have been following the pattern that god mentions, Thanks for starting this pro I will sit back and watch.....


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## iopener

Interesting post.

Dont agree with negative calories though in veggies.

If i may ask, you advise getting in more fats, but no where does it say that eating too much fat will make you fat. Its not only carbs that do this.

What about Acylation Stimulating Protein?


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## Prodiver

God said:


> Thanks for response prodiver. I have spoken to you relating diet before and appreciate your thoughts.
> 
> I'm on the fence with this one. What you say makes perfect sense but at the same time it goes against so many bodybuilding diet 'rules'. Below are some which spring to mind. I am not saying they are right and you're wrong, just that with them being said so much I would be interested to hear your thoughts on them and why you believe they are just myths.
> 
> 1. *You need to eat over your maintenance in order to grow* - You have already sort of answered this one above with the comment about protein however this is probably the main point that people will be trying to get their head round. Could you really build muscle while eating under your maintenance? In theory it sounds good but in practice I certainly haven't experienced this, however perhaps my diet or training wasn't right. TinyTom also says this is possible but his diet is higher in calories and above maintenance level if my memory serves me correctly.
> 
> *"Maintenance" is such an ambiguous word! Of course you need to eat sufficient calories to power your daily life and intense workouts: if you work out harder you'll need more calories. The calories provide energy - they do not directly grow muscle - only protein is metabolized into muscle.*
> 
> *
> *
> 
> *
> But the unavoidable fact is that ALL excess calories not burned off by exercise will be stored as fat.*
> 
> 2. *Meal Timings - You don't need to eat regularly/only eat when hungry* - Most will recommend you eat every few hours and all top bodybuilders seem to do this. Again it doesn't necessary mean they are right but I am not sure on this. For instance if I change my 6 meals into 3 meals I will surely have too much protein than the body can use in one sitting. Same goes with carbs and fats. I don't have any scientific backing here but my basic understanding is that only so much can be taken in one serving before the rest is converted into fat. If I am trying to consume getting on for 1000 calories in a serving surely that will promote more fat storage than spreading this into 2 smaller meals of 500 calories 3 hours apart? Do you have the link to the UK-M article on meal timings you have mentioned? You also say to not eat once you get up. While I see your point in doing this, after maybe 8+ hours without food surely you need something inside you ASAP to avoid going into a catabolic state.
> 
> *Tom's suggestion of eating only when hungry does seem to keep carb limiting more accurate - providing you monitor that you get enough protein and fats to grow. I personally don't recommend it because people's daily lives and jobs make eating irregularly difficult. *
> 
> *
> *
> 
> *
> I've seen no proof that the body can't use large amounts of protein, fats and carbs from food - though shakes may be different. Food transit time is about 6 hours and the body will always try to digest and utilize everything. Anyway getting your protein from 3 main meals and shakes in between you'll hardly be likley to have too much each time. *
> 
> *
> *
> 
> *
> Fat storage is related to total carb intake. Eating the same total amount in fewer meals will not increase storage.*
> 
> *
> *
> 
> *
> You'll have to search the archives for the paper - I couldn't find it in a hurry...*
> 
> *
> *
> 
> *
> The whole point of not eating when you get up is to train yourself and your bod to use your fat reserves to stay anabolic. It works.*
> 
> *
> *
> 
> 3. *Saturated fats* - I am all for increasing healthy fats but things like mayo and butter are surely not the best source. I guess all in moderation is ok but would oil and nuts not be better sources?
> 
> *Saturated fats are not completely unhealthy - and necessary for vitamin and gear uptake. Some think the link between saturated fats and cardiovascular disease is tenuous. Heredity and lifestyle may be bigger factors. Oils and nut fats can be saturated too. But anyway in someone who works out hard they are unlikely to be a problem. The fats to avoid are trans-fats like margarine - which anyway contains traces of the toxic nickel catalyst. And latest research shows that excessive omega fish oils may inhibit gear uptake..!*


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## Nemises

Pd. What does your diet look like out of curiosity?


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## Rudedog

Nice post.

I would like to see what your daily diet looks like please ProDiver?


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## Prodiver

Rudedog said:


> Nice post.
> 
> I would like to see what your daily diet looks like please ProDiver?


Well, I'm retired now, so I have to be very careful to avoid getting porky!

I get up around 0800, mooch around do the post and emails.

Then after an hour or so, breakfast protein shake and fruit, and coffee with milk (full fat always). If I've been out and busy and am hungry, I usually have a shake and a bowl of porridge or sultana bran with milk.

Mid-morning I have a protein shake and a piece of fruit, and coffee with milk.

Lunch is chicken or tuna with a big salad and mayo or dressing, a piece of fruit and coffee with milk. Rarely, I'd have a pastry or something for pudding if I'm hungry.

Mid afternoon I have a pre-workout shake and fruit like a banana, and a biscuit or mars bar if I feel I need energy, and a strong cup of tea or coffee with milk to rev me up.

Immediately after my workout I have a protein and carb drink.

Dinner is meat, fish, big omelette, etc., steamed veg or big salad with dressing, potato or rice if I'm really hungry, fruit and coffee with milk. Very occasionally I might have cheese or a pudding.

Mid evening protein shake plus fruit, and maybe coffee with milk.

Pre-bed peanut butter sandwich, or tuna or chicken wholemeal sandwich with mayo.

This suits me at present and I'm growing lean mass.

More active guys will need more calories, but should still control their carbs.


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## Rudedog

Thanks mate


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## Prodiver

God - your assessment is fair.  If your bodyfat is in stasis - whatever its level - you are eating enough calories for your life and workout needs: "maintenance" of a sort.

If you cut your carbs below a certain level (for a given energy expenditure), your body will look for other energy sources and turn first to your fat stores. It's your carb intake that governs your fat mobilization.

So it's possible as Tom says to reduce your calories below your "maintenance" level, and use up your fat stores, but still put on lean mass.

But as soon as they've been depleted you must increase your carbs sufficiently again so the body will not start to use muscle for energy. If you increase them too much you'll start to store body fat again. This is the balance you can monitor in the mirror and by feel.

Fats are metabolized into all sorts of acids and enzymes necessary for vitamin and gear uptake. If you eat excess fat it will be stored, but the way to prevent this is to control your carbs, and to release it is to cut your carbs.

Awesome spreadsheet of your diet! But as I said, the actual figures are meaningless!

Protein intake should be related to actual (growing) bodyweight for each person. 2 gms/kg/day seems about the minimum for growth without being excessive.

If you're not getting porkier, your overall carb levels must be about right, If you want to cut flab, reduce carbs a little until it's gone. If you increase your energy expenditure, you'll lose flab unless you increase your carbs.

Once you've got the balance right it's the overall carb level that counts. If you eat a banoffee pie on Saturday, it'll show by Monday and you can just cut back by the necessary carbs during the week. No need to be slavish - you'll be a lot happier and make good gains.

Just look in the mirror and never pretend!


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## Dantreadz85

Prodiver said:


> I hope you're actually losing flab but keeping or gaining lean muscle!


surely if im not losing strength am gaining then im keeping muscle ?? or is this naive for me to think this??


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## Prodiver

Dantreadz85 said:


> surely *if im not losing strength am gaining then im keeping muscle* ?? or is this naive for me to think this??


This is correct! :thumb:


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## Dantreadz85

Prodiver said:


> This is correct! :thumb:


schweet u worried me for a moment ha ha , how u been anyways mate havent spoke to u in a while , you doing ok???


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## MarkM

Great post PD, all of what you'd said makes absolute perfect sense and you are obviously a very knowledgable poster.

However, I dont beleive if i was left to my own devices to eat when hungry that I would be able to make decent gains. The thing with the set meal plan, eating every so often etc is that it helps me stick to a regular routine. Obviously this is just for me personally and if I were to switch to the way you suggest it would take a big change in frame of mind and perspective towards eating.


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## Prodiver

MarkM said:


> Great post PD, all of what you'd said makes absolute perfect sense and you are obviously a very knowledgable poster.
> 
> However, I dont beleive if i was left to my own devices to eat when hungry that I would be able to make decent gains. The thing with the set meal plan, eating every so often etc is that it helps me stick to a regular routine. Obviously this is just for me personally and if I were to switch to the way you suggest it would take a big change in frame of mind and perspective towards eating.


Actually, it wasn't I that suggested eating only when hungry. It seems to work but is a fine judgement. It's much more practical to eat regular meals.


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## Prodiver

Dantreadz85 said:


> schweet u worried me for a moment ha ha , how u been anyways mate havent spoke to u in a while , you doing ok???


Hi! Dan - fine and dandy - and still growing, thanks! :thumb:


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## wes

Prodiver said:


> Problem is the approach isn't scientific at all! It's pseudo scientific!
> 
> You cannot possibly know your calorie needs from bodyweight, nor in advance what calories your day will demand.
> 
> You cannot accurately assess your actual calorie intake, nor know what the percentage utilization is.
> 
> And you cannot know what percentage of any calories ought to be protein, fats and carbs.
> 
> So calorie figures are in fact meaningless.
> 
> Feeling your muscles and looking in the mirror are far better guides!


Agreed it's not an exact science but nevertheless it provides a measure of control and a basis form which to start with which does work.

For most feeling their muscles and looking in the mirror will add further time to reaching goals unless you're experienced and very lean.

So I think you're over simplifying things. I wish it were only that simple but it's not. Again I like your logic but I would to try to find a balance between both.


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## GSleigh

Wow. What a great read folks 

Interesting about the strength comment (side line issue i know) that if your strength is increasing then basic maths says your muscles are as well as i had a real good push in strenght recently 

I personaly dont see how it would be possible to eat 3 square meals a day to hit my required 3500-4000 calories+ a day. That would be some much food in each sitting and i couldnt manage it...

I currently eating 6 meals a day and just feels about right! + if i dont eat for 3 hours+ i get massive hunger pains!


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## Prodiver

GSleigh said:


> Wow. What a great read folks
> 
> Interesting about the strength comment (side line issue i know) that if your strength is increasing then basic maths says your muscles are as well as i had a real good push in strenght recently
> 
> I personaly dont see how it would be possible to eat 3 square meals a day to hit *my required 3500-4000 calories+ a day.* That would be some much food in each sitting and i couldnt manage it...
> 
> I currently eating 6 meals a day and just feels about right! + if i dont eat for 3 hours+ i get massive hunger pains!


2 questions:

Are you getting porkier or is your bodyfat staying the same?

Have you actually calculated your calorie intake accurately - that is, weighing every single thing you eat to the gram and multiplying by its specific calories per gram?


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## Guest

Interesting thread. 

Now the problems with this method.......(of course this is just my opinion but hey this whole thread is based on personal opinion)

A skinny man usually simply does not have a big appetite naturally they also have a very small stomach. Eating when hungry will never lean to big gains. Constant influx of nutrients slowly ramping up in amounts over months will result in the best results. (i currently am helping a guy in exactly this situations. At 130lb and 5ft9 a single piece of fruit and a glass of milk fills him completely up. The only way for him to progress is to slowly adjust his body to eating larger amounts.)

Some guys just like to eat. Perhaps for emotional reasons or perhaps they simply enjoy eating. I know guys who can get fat on the most basic of foods. My best Irish pal hit 340lb at 6ft by age 20. His diet was 100% farmer basic, meat and potatoes 3 times per day but he would eat a lot too much.

Eating for health and eating for muscle size is a very different thing. There is NOTHING healthy about being hugely muscular so you better forget about eating 100% for health! Now i am not saying eat **** but you have to accept that the biorhythm way of eating (fruit only in the am and so on) may lead to the longest possible life but if you ever hope to be walking around at 250lb+ with abbs you better forget about this.

As far as i can remember from my physiology classes the stomach should process most reasonable sized meals within 3 hours. There is no point putting food on top of food this will only lead to health problems and sickness. However you need to be eating at a level that allows for maximum results.

Bodybuilding....no all sporting activities is 100% based on science. So even though you will get some results eating in a haphazard manner such as this your gains will be far better if you meet all the biological requirements.

You need carbs for energy, primarily focused on direct from the earth sources such as veg and fruit but things like vitargo have its place at certain times. Then you need COMPLETE proteins for growth. Finally you need fats but not just one type. Saturated fat intake is directly related to test levels (according to one study i have seen its about 15 grams of saturated fat per day to hit top possible levels, the source is a study in MD mag) but you also need mono and poly fats for proper body function. Then you need fiber to help the elimination of all the waste.

Basically i am saying if you have two guys and one guy follows a "eat when i feel like it and eat what i like in moderation diet" compared to the " eat a perfectly balanced diet even though i may not be hungry all the time" i am 100% certain guy 2 will have better results.

As far as over eating well this is simply stupidity and its not a mistake people will make too many times IMO. One big reason is when you gain muscle you burn more calories and fairly quickly a point is reached where its a pain to eat maintaining levels of calories let alone a huge surplus:laugh:


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## TH0R

Some good points and the thinking seems logical, but I am sceptical, I eat 4000+

cals p day, I weigh all my food and workout the macro's, I eat at least 5 small meals pday

and have 2 shakes pd.

I'm 15-8 and not fat or podgy, I have always eaten a lot and I still feel hungry, in

fact just doing this post has made me want some Tuna and Baked Potatoe:laugh:

I'm not saying your wrong PD, I'm sure it works for you and many others, but I'm not

sure it would work for me, although I'm intrigued enough to maybe give it a go:rolleyes:

Do I reduce my protein to the recommended 2g's per kg, how do I work out the

other macro's, efa's, simple and complex carbs etc. Is it a case of blindly eating what

I want:confused1:

How long would I need to give it, what if I start losing strength, do I up my Protein

or carbs, efa's??

I can see this very much appealing to the, shall we say, less dedicated trainer, but

I'll hold sway until I've tried it, any more info I can read on this PB??

Very good post PB, hoping for an interesting experiment:thumbup1: Will log it on

my journal:rolleyes: 

:beer:

Tel


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## Prodiver

Con said:


> Interesting thread.
> 
> Now the problems with this method.......(of course this is just my opinion but hey* this whole thread is based on personal opinion*)
> 
> A skinny man usually simply does not have a big appetite naturally they also have a very small stomach. Eating when hungry will never lean to big gains. Constant influx of nutrients slowly ramping up in amounts over months will result in the best results. (i currently am helping a guy in exactly this situations. At 130lb and 5ft9 a single piece of fruit and a glass of milk fills him completely up. The only way for him to progress is to slowly adjust his body to eating larger amounts.)
> 
> Some guys just like to eat. Perhaps for emotional reasons or perhaps they simply enjoy eating. I know guys who can get fat on the most basic of foods. My best Irish pal hit 340lb at 6ft by age 20. His diet was 100% farmer basic, meat and potatoes 3 times per day but he would eat a lot too much.
> 
> Eating for health and eating for muscle size is a very different thing. There is NOTHING healthy about being hugely muscular so you better forget about eating 100% for health! Now i am not saying eat **** but you have to accept that the biorhythm way of eating (fruit only in the am and so on) may lead to the longest possible life but if you ever hope to be walking around at 250lb+ with abbs you better forget about this.
> 
> As far as i can remember from my physiology classes *the stomach should process most reasonable sized meals within 3 hours. There is no point putting food on top of food* this will only lead to health problems and sickness. However you need to be eating at a level that allows for maximum results.
> 
> *Bodybuilding....no all sporting activities is 100% based on science.* *So even though you will get some results eating in a haphazard manner such as this your gains will be far better if you meet all the biological requirements.* You need carbs for energy, primarily focused on direct from the earth sources such as veg and fruit but things like vitargo have its place at certain times. Then you need COMPLETE proteins for growth. Finally you need fats but not just one type. Saturated fat intake is directly related to test levels (according to one study i have seen its about 15 grams of saturated fat per day to hit top possible levels, the source is a study in MD mag) but you also need mono and poly fats for proper body function. Then you need fiber to help the elimination of all the waste.
> 
> Basically i am saying if you have two guys and one guy follows *a "eat when i feel like it and eat what i like in moderation diet" compared to the " eat a perfectly balanced diet *even though i may not be hungry all the time" i am 100% certain guy 2 will have better results.
> 
> As far as over eating well this is simply stupidity and its not a mistake people will make too many times IMO. One big reason is when you gain muscle you burn more calories and fairly quickly a point is reached where its a pain to eat maintaining levels of calories let alone a huge surplus:laugh:


Con, though all posts on UK-M are usually based on personal opinion, I hope my OP is based on information gained from years of observation - not least that a lot of received bodybuilding wisdoms about diet must just plainly be wrong!

Though the stomach processes most foods in about 3 hours, it doesn't hold everything and suddenly empty it into the small intestine all at once, but voids digested food continuously. Some foods transit very quickly and can be consumed over a meal time in very large amounts. Most bodybuilders don't sit down 3 times a day healthly and enjoy a prolonged meal of several varying courses during which they could consume many calories and lots of different nutrients. They usually just stuff and go!

Unfortnately, bodybuilding as practised by most amateirs is far from scientific! Often they simply adopt a few disparate "truths" about diet and follow them imperfectly yet slavishly.

If you read my OP you will have realized that I certainly didn't advocate eating in a haphazard manner, and it was implicit that all the biological requirements for gtowth be met.

Also I personally didn't advocate eating only when hungry - it was Tinytom, who's no newbie. And I never mentioned eating "in moderation".

I didn't give a set diet, because anyone who grasps the fundamental concept of carb control can easily imagine and follow an interesting and varying one which will enable them to avoid bulking up yet make maximum lean gains.


----------



## Prodiver

tel3563 said:


> Some good points and the thinking seems logical, but I am sceptical, I eat 4000+
> 
> cals p day, I weigh all my food and workout the macro's, I eat at least 5 small meals pday
> 
> and have 2 shakes pd.
> 
> I'm 15-8 and not fat or podgy, I have always eaten a lot and I still feel hungry, in
> 
> fact just doing this post has made me want some Tuna and Baked Potatoe:laugh:
> 
> I'm not saying your wrong PD, I'm sure it works for you and many others, but I'm not
> 
> sure it would work for me, although I'm intrigued enough to maybe give it a go:rolleyes:
> 
> Do I reduce my protein to the recommended 2g's per kg, how do I work out the
> 
> other macro's, efa's, simple and complex carbs etc. Is it a case of blindly eating what
> 
> I want:confused1:
> 
> How long would I need to give it, what if I start losing strength, do I up my Protein
> 
> or carbs, efa's??
> 
> I can see this very much appealing to the, shall we say, less dedicated trainer, but
> 
> I'll hold sway until I've tried it, any more info I can read on this PB??
> 
> Very good post PB, hoping for an interesting experiment:thumbup1: Will log it on
> 
> my journal:rolleyes:
> 
> :beer:
> 
> Tel


If you sit down 3 times a day to enjoy a meal of several varying courses, you can easily consume 4000 calories: protein contains calories too. And milk in tea or coffee has calories.

People who dig holes in roads all day expend far more calories even than a serious bodybuilder and can easily neck them in 3 meals plus snacks.

But of course the actual number of calories is irrelevant - providing you're getting just enough from carbs for your energy expenditure.

If you're eating way in excess of 2 gms protein per kg bodyweight per day a lot of it is probably being wasted by being turned to carbs. I'd bet you won't lose muscle on 2 gms intake. If you do you'll know quickly as your strength and gains will diminish, and you can up your protein intake - incrementally till it's obviously right.

If you get most of your protein from food, and eat interesting and tasty food, you'll also likely get plenty of oils and fats, and you don't really need to work out all the macros.

If you read my OP you'll see I in no way suggested blindly eating what you want! But carbs are carbs - some faster, some slower, and it's easy to discover how much more or less you need to eat. If you're generally hungry and lack energy, eat more slower complex carbs, but they take longer to adjust when you need to.

It probably takes a couple of weeks to regularize eating in this way.


----------



## TH0R

PB, what about the introduction of AAS into the mix, if a natty BB was following your method

and then went on a AAS cycle, what difference would you recommend if any??


----------



## Prodiver

tel3563 said:


> PB, what about the introduction of AAS into the mix, if a natty BB was following your method
> 
> and then went on a AAS cycle, what difference would you recommend if any??


The 2 gms/kg level seems to work for guys on AAS. Nattys prob need less - but not much as protein synthesis seems fairly consistent.

On AAS your recovery time will be less and energy expenditure will be more, so as you workout intensely and protein is synthesized to muscle faster your bodyweight will increase markedly and you must up your protein intake and eat enough carbs.


----------



## Guest

Well my comment was more based on the fact that newer guys may look at your diet and think "hmm if i eat like that i can get his results" which will not be the case.

I of course agree with what you are saying as a whole i was merely attempting to add more to the discussion Admittedly I did not read the entire thread only the first few posts as i simply do not have very much time to read threads all the way through at the moment.


----------



## Prodiver

Con said:


> Well my comment was more based on the fact that newer guys may look at your diet and think "hmm *if i eat like that i can get his results" *which will not be the case....


IME Con it is the case! Which is why I advocate it and posted.

So many newbies get lost in diets, waste money on supplements and clearly make little gains, when if they simply ate the necessary amount of protein, didn't worry much about fats, controlled their carbs and worked out hard, they'd gain amazingly - as I've proved with several guys over the years.


----------



## Guest

God said:


> I think that when you are new to bodybuilding, one of, if not the most important thing is to carefully plan a diet so you can stick to it though. So perhaps this is what con is getting at?


Well I only speak from personal opinion just like Pro is talking from his own opinion.

Believe it or not i used to be very very skinny. I went from 150lb to 202lb in one year then dieted down to a very lean 180lb completely natural. Did i do this by eating when i was hungry or only 3 meals per day? Lol no chance! It was 6 real food meals per day forced down bite by bite every single day for a year. One year later i was a champion powerlifter and the most muscular guy in school not bad for some one that was known as the little skater kid.


----------



## Prodiver

God said:


> I think that when you are new to bodybuilding, one of, if not the most important thing is to carefully plan a diet so you can stick to it though. So perhaps this is what con is getting at? I know that myself as a beginner, and still now, require everything planned out in front of me otherwise it is just too easy to eat crap or miss meals. Consistency is so important.


Each to their own, God. (That has a nice anarchic ring to it :laugh

But it's consistency in eating sufficient protein and controlling the amount of carbs through self assessment that's important, not actually what you eat, and not slavishly sticking to a boring diet when it may give too little or too much of each in a particular week...


----------



## TH0R

Prodiver said:


> IME Con it is the case! Which is why I advocate it and posted.
> 
> *So many newbies get lost in diets*, waste money on supplements and clearly make little gains, when if they simply ate the necessary amount of protein, didn't worry much about fats, controlled their carbs and worked out hard, they'd gain amazingly - as I've proved with several guys over the years.


Can't agree with that Patrick,many more newbies get lost in massive training routines

training for hours in the gym and don't realise that diet/rest/training are key. They don't gain because the overdo it in the gym and don't eat properley

relying on shakes and not real food, jmo

25 years ago if I'd not eaten like a horse I wouldn't of put 47 lbs on in 3 years natty

I also agree with the importance of consistency


----------



## hilly

Some very good points, from pro,tom,god and con.

Just to add to this i am currently getting help off phil hernon who is pretty knowledgable guy and he has me eating only fruit/veg as a carb source and is very adament that people only eat when they are hungry.

I have been following his protocol for the last 8-10 weeks and am my strongest ever with lowest bf at this weight around 205lbs i have ever been and making good progress.

the first few days of eating only fruit/veg for carbs were funny on my body however now i really like it. energy levels are good, no digestions/stomach issues bloat etc and i feel great.

had blood tests done 3 weeks ago and everything was bang in the middle of were it should be. doc says i am very healthy so im happy.

As long as i keep making gains i shall continue to do this.

I also think that you will struggle to get fat eating like pro has said especially if eating only when hungry. the key is to work out when you are actually hungry and not just an emtpy stomach.

However con does make a very good point. eating this way IMO will not make you a mass monster. con/brittbb from this site have both proven that eating big in the off season leads to big gains. other pro's like evan cent/trey brewer and their are several more go very big in the off season and have made great gains.

Its the age old argument that is restricting your cals to keep bodyfat in check limiting your gains.


----------



## Prodiver

Con said:


> Well I only speak from personal opinion just like Pro is talking from his own opinion.
> 
> Believe it or not i used to be very very skinny. I went from 150lb to 202lb in one year then dieted down to a very lean 180lb completely natural. Did i do this by eating when i was hungry or only 3 meals per day? Lol no chance! It was 6 real food meals per day forced down bite by bite every single day for a year. One year later i was a champion powerlifter and the most muscular guy in school not bad for some one that was known as the little skater kid.


Yebbut you put on 52lbs of mixed flesh to finally achieve 30 lbs of muscle, when you could have gone straight there. Think of the food you rented and the money you wasted! :whistling:


----------



## hilly

Prodiver said:


> Yebbut you put on 52lbs of mixed flesh to finally achieve 30 lbs of muscle, when you could have gone straight there. Think of the food you rented and the money you wasted! :whistling:


Come on pro you think he could have added 30lbs of muscle in that time without adding any fat. ive never heard or seen any1 do that.


----------



## Ironclad

OP doesn't make a great deal of sense to me (I may have to reread it).

You are advocating a terribly late brekky, beyond keto style, a meal PWO then something else before bed?

Somehow tweaking carbs all the while and finding alot of cals - for some of us...


----------



## TH0R

God said:


> Took the words out of my mouth there. I think by restricting food intake somewhat you will both reduce fat gains and also muscle gains substantially. * I think that a typical endomorph might benefit from your diet plan more than an ecto who struggles to add weight but finds it easy to lose fat.* What do you think?


Very good point:thumbup1:


----------



## hilly

Well i am trying it this winter and it is working altho my diet is a little different to pro's the theory is similar and we have discussed it before.

then next winter i am going to do DC training and increase my cals alot more. I will let bodyfat get slightly higher than i am now but i will be focusing on adding alot of mass. i am trying to keep bodyfat under 12-15% at the moment and am managing well next off season i may let it get higher but cals will be much greater.

I will then no for myself wether i am more suited to gaining more weight and gaining slightly more bodyfat or staying leaner etc. all notes will be taken and recorded then i will atleast no for myself.


----------



## Prodiver

hilly said:


> Some very good points, from pro,tom,god and con.
> 
> Just to add to this i am currently getting help off phil hernon who is pretty knowledgable guy and he has me eating only fruit/veg as a carb source and is very adament that people only eat when they are hungry.
> 
> I have been following his protocol for the last 8-10 weeks and am my strongest ever with lowest bf at this weight around 205lbs i have ever been and making good progress.
> 
> the first few days of eating only fruit/veg for carbs were funny on my body however now i really like it. energy levels are good, no digestions/stomach issues bloat etc and i feel great.
> 
> had blood tests done 3 weeks ago and everything was bang in the middle of were it should be. doc says i am very healthy so im happy.
> 
> As long as i keep making gains i shall continue to do this.
> 
> I also think that you will struggle to get fat eating like pro has said especially if eating only when hungry. the key is to work out when you are actually hungry and not just an emtpy stomach.
> 
> However con does make a very good point. eating this way IMO will not make you a mass monster. con/brittbb from this site have both proven that eating big in the off season leads to big gains. other pro's like evan cent/trey brewer and their are several more go very big in the off season and have made great gains.
> 
> *Its the age old argument that is restricting your cals to keep bodyfat in check limiting your gains.*


This is the point, hilly! Tom, James L and I believe it's perfectly possible to gain lean mass and to lose fat at the same time.

Putting on fat probably actually slows lean growth because in the presence of excess carbs the body prefers to store fat than feed muscles.

If you eat only just enough carbs for energy to live and work out intensely, you will lose or won't store fat, you'll be able to stress your muscles hard, and sufficient protein will let them grow as fast as they can.

Why would you want to do anything less efficient?


----------



## Prodiver

Witch-King said:


> OP doesn't make a great deal of sense to me (I may have to reread it).
> 
> You are advocating a terribly late brekky, beyond keto style, a meal PWO then something else before bed?
> 
> Somehow tweaking carbs all the while and finding alot of cals - for some of us...


Reread it!


----------



## hilly

Prodiver said:


> This is the point, hilly! Tom, James L and I believe it's perfectly possible to gain lean mass and to lose fat at the same time.
> 
> Putting on fat probably actually slows lean growth because in the presence of excess carbs the body prefers to store fat than feed muscles.
> 
> If you eat only just enough carbs for energy to live and work out intensely, you will lose or won't store fat, you'll be able to stress your muscles hard, and sufficient protein will let them grow as fast as they can.
> 
> Why would you want to do anything less efficient?


Oh i agree pro and as you no this is something i am doin currently and its working.

However my point is for every1 person who recommends this many others do not. As i mentioned their are many people both on here and pro's who gain alot in the off season and have good results.

Like i said above i am trying this way now and the other way next year. then i will truly no atleast for myself which method is more effective in gaining muscle.


----------



## Prodiver

hilly said:


> Come on pro you think he could have added 30lbs of muscle in that time without adding any fat. ive never heard or seen any1 do that.


Yes - and I have.

It's uncommon because virtually all newbies equate size with muscle mass and simply overeat.

Of course they get big - and fat.

And trying to persuade them there's another, better way is an uphill struggle - like this thread!


----------



## hilly

Prodiver said:


> Yes - and I have.
> 
> It's uncommon because virtually all newbies equate size with muscle mass and simply overeat.
> 
> Of course they get big - and fat.
> 
> And trying to persuade them there's another, better way is an uphill struggle - like this thread!


Im interested in this as you no pro as i am all for staying lean year round.

So you reckon you could put 30lb on some1 without increasing their bodyfat over a year following these methods.?

Natural or unatural im not fussed as im assisted lets presume were talking about using anabolics as well.


----------



## Prodiver

hilly said:


> Im interested in this as you no pro as i am all for staying lean year round.
> 
> *So you reckon you could put 30lb on some1 without increasing their bodyfat over a year following these methods.?*
> 
> Natural or unatural im not fussed as im assisted lets presume were talking about using anabolics as well.


Yes. 

Edit: 30lbs in a year? Maybe, on someone really serious!


----------



## hilly

Prodiver said:


> Yes.
> 
> Edit: 30lbs in a year? Maybe, on someone really serious!


I dont think i could be more serious pro


----------



## Prodiver

hilly said:


> I dont think i could be more serious pro


Eat loads of beef and liver. (Joking but serious!)


----------



## Dantreadz85

i swear i read a thread the other day that said it was very unlikely to puto on any more than 12 pound or so of muscle a year , ur talkin over double them figures here :confused1:


----------



## martin brown

Prodiver said:


> This is the point, hilly! Tom, James L and I believe it's perfectly possible to gain lean mass and to lose fat at the same time.
> 
> *Putting on fat probably actually slows lean growth because in the presence of excess carbs the body prefers to store fat than feed muscles.*
> 
> If you eat only just enough carbs for energy to live and work out intensely, you will lose or won't store fat, you'll be able to stress your muscles hard, and sufficient protein will let them grow as fast as they can.
> 
> Why would you want to do anything less efficient?


Now I can kind of agree with most of this thread, but, there are a couple of things I think are a little misleading.

Firstly eating less frequent meals does tend to make people put on weight (yes weight, not just muscle). I agree with that. Less frequent meals equals more storage in general, be it muscle or fat. But this will encourage fat gain as much as it will muscle gain.

Secondly, excess carbs or calories have been considered far superior for weight gain. Again, both muscle and fat gain. The fastest way to put 30lbs of muscle on would be to put a mixture of fat and muscle on. This has been shown a few times when testing sumos vs bodybuilders, the sumos tended to have higher LBM.

Just my 2 cents!


----------



## Fatbastard

PD -Agree with your ideas around having your first meal after you have allowed some time for your body to tap into fat reserves - same concept as fasted cardio it seems.

In terms of muscle catabolism after a nights sleep, have seen numerous articles and diet plans that suggest the use of WMS or a high glycemic index carb upon waking spikes insulin and takes the body out of a catabolic state.

In the interests of a lean bulk would this not be preferable whereas the late breakfast concept you mentioned would be of more use in cutting?

look forward to your thoughts on this one mate


----------



## Rebus

Prodiver said:


> Yes - the paper cited showed that eating more frequently does not increase your metabolism overall.
> 
> Eating 3 meals with exactly the same amounts of nutrients as 6 smaller meals has exactly the same metabolic effect.


Hmm, ive always believed in the little and often,,,,using the analogy of treating ones stomach like a furnace. ie, get one big oak tree and chop it in to 3 equal sizes and at 3 equally spread times throw a piece in and see how long it takes to burn through ( use imagination eh ), then get same sized oak tree and chop it into 6 equally sized pieces and throw a piece in a 6 equally spread times and see how much faster they burn..........:cool:

That being said, since August last year whether in competition or off season, whatever macros per meal ive been doing, eg 50g protein, 40g carbs, 20g fats per meal ive been eating when im hungry. At these portions its been around 3 hour interval. However as has already been touched upon, depending on activity levels that day, environment etc it has at times been a lot earlier or even a lot longer. Ive just fed myself when my body says it needs fed...Works a treat.

Heres another thing....all and i mean ALL my carbs have been from fruit and green veg, predominately broccoli, spinach, tomatoes, pineapples, sultanas/raisins and even 100% pure fruit smoothies to make up the carb amounts ( off season only for smoothies as when show prep' it was easy to reach the carb amounts ) and and i have to say i made the most gains in one year than ever whilst staying a lot leaner than i had when in ' off ' season mode.... :tongue:

Theres many ways to skin a cat....Im now doing carb cycling for a lean bulk period with just about all carbs around 1st 3 meals, protein and carbs only, ie, breakfast, train, pwo liquid meal and meal 3...the remainder meals...plan on 3 more are protein, fats and veg. But will still eat instinctively as best i can with consideration of getting in high carb days, medium carb days and low carb days so that it is cycling still....Just have to find what suits you and try it out.

Its what this games all about trial and error...:cool:


----------



## LittleChris

Very interesting thread :thumb:


----------



## iopener

iopener said:


> What about Acylation Stimulating Protein?


May i politely bump this question


----------



## Prodiver

martin brown said:


> Now I can kind of agree with most of this thread, but, there are a couple of things I think are a little misleading.
> 
> *Firstly eating less frequent meals does tend to make people put on weight (yes weight, not just muscle).* I agree with that. Less frequent meals equals more storage in general, be it muscle or fat. But this will encourage fat gain as much as it will muscle gain.
> 
> *The medical research paper cited on here some months back showed that this is not so.*
> 
> Secondly, *excess carbs or calories have been considered far superior for weight gain. Again, both muscle and fat gain.* The fastest way to put 30lbs of muscle on would be to put a mixture of fat and muscle on. This has been shown a few times when testing sumos vs bodybuilders, the sumos tended to have higher LBM.
> 
> *Can you cite any evidence for this, please? The latest research as far as I can tell suggests this received wisdom is not true.*
> 
> Just my 2 cents!


----------



## Prodiver

Fatbastard said:


> PD -Agree with your ideas around having your first meal after you have allowed some time for your body to tap into fat reserves - same concept as fasted cardio it seems.
> 
> In terms of muscle catabolism after a nights sleep, have seen numerous articles and diet plans that suggest the use of WMS or a high glycemic index carb upon waking spikes insulin and takes the body out of a catabolic state.
> 
> In the interests of a lean bulk would this not be preferable whereas the late breakfast concept you mentioned would be of more use in cutting?
> 
> look forward to your thoughts on this one mate


As I understand it the same thing happens when your bod becomes accustomed to tapping into its fat reserves whenever necessary - it prob never becomes catabolic because of the pre-bed meal and the fat mobilization and doesn't require an insulin spike which some consider undesireable anyway.

The idea is not to "bulk and cut", but to establish a certain bodyfat level and then balance it at that permanently.


----------



## Prodiver

BRABUS said:


> Hmm, ive always believed in the little and often,,,,using the analogy of treating ones stomach like a furnace. ie, get one big oak tree and chop it in to 3 equal sizes and at 3 equally spread times throw a piece in and see how long it takes to burn through ( use imagination eh ), then get same sized oak tree and chop it into 6 equally sized pieces and throw a piece in a 6 equally spread times and see how much faster they burn..........:cool:
> 
> That being said, since August last year whether in competition or off season, whatever macros per meal ive been doing, eg 50g protein, 40g carbs, 20g fats per meal ive been eating when im hungry. At these portions its been around 3 hour interval. However as has already been touched upon, depending on activity levels that day, environment etc it has at times been a lot earlier or even a lot longer. I*ve just fed myself when my body says it needs fed...Works a treat.*
> 
> Heres another thing....*all and i mean ALL my carbs have been from fruit and green veg,* predominately broccoli, spinach, tomatoes, pineapples, sultanas/raisins and even 100% pure fruit smoothies to make up the carb amounts ( off season only for smoothies as when show prep' it was easy to reach the carb amounts ) and and *i have to say i made the most gains in one year than ever whilst staying a lot leaner than i had when in ' off ' season mode*.... :tongue:
> 
> Theres many ways to skin a cat....Im now doing carb cycling for a lean bulk period with just about all carbs around 1st 3 meals, protein and carbs only, ie, breakfast, train, pwo liquid meal and meal 3...the remainder meals...plan on 3 more are protein, fats and veg. But will still eat instinctively as best i can with consideration of getting in high carb days, medium carb days and low carb days so that it is cycling still....Just have to find what suits you and try it out.
> 
> Its what this games all about trial and error...:cool:


Great post, Darren.

Because of the cited paper I believe there's no need to eat littler and oftener, though ideally I do like the eating only when hungry.

Most people can't manage these easily, and eating three good, varied meals a day plus shakes and healthy snacks works just as well for them.

I love your fruit and veg carb intake as I do believe they do make it easy to judge the amount of carbs needed, and they make a very pleasant non-bloating and healthy diet.


----------



## Chris4Pez1436114538

Prod i like this mate as i can remember about a year ago maybe a bit longer i was reading and learning about this from a guy who use to come on here and he sure knew his stuff his name was Chef-X

He made sense (sp) in everything he said and the way he explained it and tbh i learnt a lot from him as i am sure others did and still do.

His diet was eating if i remember right 6 times a day but he also said that by eating only 3 times a day what you needed to eat would be fine and had no impact what so ever on your blood levels at all, also he didnt really count calories as such in terms of daily macros etc but yet his diet seemed to work!

Like his training method as well was a bit like this HST training that is being spoke about now with doing the addition of what was called morning conditioning which again when i was following it i felt was working a treat!!!!

Reps to you again mate!


----------



## Chris4Pez1436114538

Only question i have is i am currently on ccyle of test cyp and also nap 50's along with a few other things (have only been on for a week) but since starting the nap 50's i have been constantly hungry so what would you say to this mate as if i was to eat when i am hungry i would be eating all the time....

Just out of curiosity????


----------



## treb92

Ah the world of body building so contradicting.


----------



## Prodiver

Chris4Pez said:


> Only question i have is i am currently on ccyle of test cyp and also nap 50's along with a few other things (have only been on for a week) but since starting the nap 50's i have been constantly hungry so what would you say to this mate as if i was to eat when i am hungry i would be eating all the time....
> 
> Just out of curiosity????


If you're hungry all the time it indicates your body is metabolizing your food very quickly and efficiently and is trying to grow hard.

So you may need to eat more protein, fats and carbs, but still control your carb intake so you don't store any excess calories as fat.


----------



## Guest

Prodiver said:


> Yebbut you put on 52lbs of mixed flesh to finally achieve 30 lbs of muscle, when you could have gone straight there. Think of the food you rented and the money you wasted! :whistling:


Well sadly i will have to disagree with you mate. The chances of me having gained 30lb of muscle with close to no fat in a year would have been nil. I know this because i know my own body.

Also i have to ask the question. You obviously follow this method, however, you are not in "good condition" as it would be. Now in no ways am i calling you fat far from it in fact but you are obviously above 10% bf. I fully realize you are older and thus have a slower metabolism but seeing that you do utilize drugs (like most of us) you should not really be at that much of a disadvantage. In fact i will go as far to say that often older bodybuilders are far leaner year round than the younger bodybuilders.

Now i am pretty sure you will say that i am wrong because you are at a body fat level that you are comfortable with. That is fine but i did want to make that point all the same. 

As far as wasting money nah i found the cost of things like oats, olive oil, chicken to be well worth it along with the complete lack of social life(when you don't go out even once in a given year and only eat sleep train and work you save a lot of money) when i received my best teenage lifter (overall and my weight class) at the GPC worlds.


----------



## Prodiver

Con said:


> Well sadly i will have to disagree with you mate. The chances of me having gained 30lb of muscle with close to no fat in a year would have been nil. I know this because i know my own body.
> 
> Also i have to ask the question. You obviously follow this method, however, you are not in "good condition" as it would be. Now in no ways am i calling you fat far from it in fact but you are obviously above 10% bf. I fully realize you are older and thus have a slower metabolism but seeing that you do utilize drugs (like most of us) you should not really be at that much of a disadvantage. In fact i will go as far to say that often older bodybuilders are far leaner year round than the younger bodybuilders.
> 
> Now i am pretty sure you will say that i am wrong because you are at a body fat level that you are comfortable with. That is fine but i did want to make that point all the same.
> 
> As far as wasting money nah i found the cost of things like oats, olive oil, chicken to be well worth it along with the complete lack of social life(when you don't go out even once in a given year and only eat sleep train and work you save a lot of money) when i received my best teenage lifter (overall and my weight class) at the GPC worlds.


My current condition, Con, is irrelevant. So are your single personal beliefs about your own body and means of gaining lean mass.

The question is whether it is possible for a normal guy to grow lean muscle mass without adding bodyfat, or while shedding it, or whether putting on bodyfat is unavoidable if you want to add lean muscle.

The inference from current nutritional knowledge, backed up by my own observation and the experience of others coming out on here, is that the old bodybuilding nostrum that you must eat big to get big - to bulk up bodyfat to add muscle - is just plain wrong, and that it's perfectly possible to lose fat and gain lean mass at the same time, and then maintain a certain bodyfat level.

And also that calculating and counting calories is too inaccurate, and that if you stick rigidly to a diet of a given number of calories of protein, fats and carbs rather than eating sufficient protein and fats and controlling your carbs day by day, you may eat the wrong amounts and slow your growth and store bodyfat.


----------



## hilly

I dont believe that is what con was getting at PRO. I think he was looking more along the lines of when you said he could have just added the 30lbs of muscle in a year without the bodyfat.

This is also the point i was talking about as for myself, con im sure is the say and i no little chris on here we have all discussed together at times which ius the better approach. to let ones bodyfat increase that little bit more while adding more muscle or keeping bodyfat down as much as possible but possibly limiting muscle gains.

I can say pretty safely that the 3 of us are pretty dam good with our diets and all around the same age however none of us have managed to add anywere near the 30lbs you mention without adding some bodyfat which you say is possible to do.

Being you lads and not having your experience this is the bt we are interested in as i myself am yet to see any1 do this which is why i am so interested and would even be happy for you to use me to prove your point next year


----------



## Prodiver

hilly said:


> I dont believe that is what con was getting at PRO. I think he was looking more along the lines of when you said he could have just added the 30lbs of muscle in a year without the bodyfat.
> 
> This is also the point i was talking about as for myself, con im sure is the say and i no little chris on here we have all discussed together at times which ius the better approach. to let ones bodyfat increase that little bit more while adding more muscle or keeping bodyfat down as much as possible but possibly limiting muscle gains.
> 
> I can say pretty safely that the 3 of us are pretty dam good with our diets and all around the same age however none of us have managed to add anywere near the 30lbs you mention without adding some bodyfat which you say is possible to do.
> 
> Being you lads and not having your experience this is the bt we are interested in as i myself am yet to see any1 do this which is why i am so interested and would even be happy for you to use me to prove your point next year


The problem is, hilly, that most people still equate putting on weight directly with adding muscle.

Though protein, and ultimately muscle itself for survival can be turned into energy, no amount of carbs in the world can be turned into protein, which is essential for muscle maintenance and growth.

Theoretically you could, like the Masai, who eat only beef, milk and blood, subsist almost entirely on protein and fat and no carbs, since surplus protein and fat can be utilized by the body for energy. The Masai are noted for their stature, muscularity and lean body mass. They only very occasionally eat fruit, nuts and honey when available.

Their leanness is attributable to the efficiency with which their bodies store and burn bodyfat, not because of cardio, though they dance a lot, but because of the absense of carbs, yet they also pack on muscle very efficiently too, especially at puberty.

Since our genes are virtually the same as theirs, there's absolutely no reason to suppose that our bodies should react differently.

You do not need to eat so much protein, fats and especially carbs that you store bodyfat. You only need sufficient protein and fats for muscle growth, and carbs for daily energy, and the most practical way to control your bodyfat is to control your carbs.

Another problem, which supports the inconvenient eat only when hungry idea, is that we are used to eating regularly, and so tend to eat more carbs than we need in order to feel sated, or because we rigidly follow a diet plan whether we need that amount of carbs that day or not - which means fat storage.

This why it's so rare to find a bodybuilder who is growing lean muscle but not storing bodyfat.

At first when you limit your carbs, especially if you're used to bulking, you feel you lack energy, and some fear they'll lose power and gains, so they still tend to gorge. It's a fine balance, but when achieved you should have good bodyfat mobility and ample energy for life and workouts without getting fatter. Of course it's an even finer balance to have sufficient energy and lose bodyfat, but it is possible without limiting muscle gains.

Brabus seems to have got this right, and from what he says and nutrition theory, muscle gains are probably enhanced by limiting carb intake. :thumb:


----------



## LittleChris

Well this along with TT's thread has led me to change my approach.

I have dropped from around 450g of carbs daily to probably less than half of that. First day felt hungry, but seem fine now. Will do this for a few months and see how it works.

No use following conventional and accepted methods for the sake of it.


----------



## Prodiver

LittleChris said:


> Well this along with TT's thread has led me to change my approach.
> 
> I have dropped from around 450g of carbs daily to probably less than half of that. First day felt hungry, but seem fine now. Will do this for a few months and see how it works.
> 
> No use following conventional and accepted methods for the sake of it.


Please be sure to keep us informed about how you get on, Chris! :thumb:


----------



## TH0R

Prodiver said:


> At first when you limit your carbs, especially if you're used to bulking, you feel you lack energy, and some fear they'll lose power and gains, so they still tend to gorge. It's a fine balance, but when achieved you should have good bodyfat mobility and ample energy for life and workouts without getting fatter. Of course it's an even finer balance to have sufficient energy and lose bodyfat, but it is possible without limiting muscle gains.


This got me thinking Prov, when your in a bulking stage, and Im only talking for

me and a few others I actually know, your strength gains are mostly due imo to

the extra weight your putting on, whether it be muscle or fat.

Now when we cut this down naturally our strength decreases, sometimes quite

a lot, this is a natural process.

Now, if you don't bulk and keep a natural balance then it stands to reason that

because you haven't put the mass on to create the strength that creates the

bigger muscle, then you surely couldn't put the same amount of muscle on doing

it your way:confused1:


----------



## Prodiver

tel3563 said:


> This got me thinking Prov, when your in a bulking stage, and Im only talking for
> 
> me and a few others I actually know, *your strength gains are mostly due imo to *
> 
> *
> the extra weight your putting on, whether it be muscle or fat.*
> 
> Now when we cut this down naturally our strength decreases, sometimes quite
> 
> a lot, this is a natural process.
> 
> Now, if you don't bulk and keep a natural balance then it stands to reason that
> 
> because you haven't put the mass on to create the strength that creates the
> 
> bigger muscle, then you surely couldn't put the same amount of muscle on doing
> 
> it your way:confused1:


Tel this just cannot be true! Fat cannot exert any force whatsoever, so will not in any way contribute to any strength or muscle gains!

And if your body is busy storing fat it may be diverting resources away from muscle growth.

Fatness may even make lifts and reps more difficult and slow your gains.

When you cut in the conventional way, you lose strength because the only way to make appreciable bodyfat losses fast enough is to reduce your calories drastically, which compromises your energy for workouts and your proteins and fats for maintenance.

It's far better never to store excess fat in the first place - and you can still pack on lean muscle!


----------



## TH0R

Prodiver said:


> Tel this just cannot be true! Fat cannot exert any force whatsoever, so will not in any way contribute to any strength or muscle gains!
> 
> And if your body is busy storing fat it may be diverting resources away from muscle growth.
> 
> Fatness may even make lifts and reps more difficult and slow your gains.
> 
> When you cut in the conventional way, you lose strength because the only way to make appreciable bodyfat losses fast enough is to reduce your calories drastically, which compromises your energy for workouts and your proteins and fats for maintenance.
> 
> It's far better never to store excess fat in the first place - and you can still pack on lean muscle!


Thanks, I Think I'm beginning to understand:rolleyes:

What is it they say about old dogs


----------



## Guest

LittleChris said:


> I have dropped from around 450g of carbs daily to probably less than half of that. First day felt hungry, but seem fine now. Wi


450 grams of carbs? You must have a great metabolism mate because i would become very porky very quickly eating that number of carbs. I personally get in any where between 150-400 grams in when trying to gain muscle then on some days i eat a lot more. At the end of the day you have to adjust as you go along.

Prodiver I do believe we are both missing each others points to some extent because that is not what i was talking about....... However i take it your end point is listen to your body don't gain weight for the sake of gaining weight and just eat enough to maintain your intense work outs/life style. I agree with that end of story:beer:

One point i will have to disagree with and their certainly will be no changing of my mind on this one. Its yours/Mike M's view that human genetics are so similar that the same rules apply to all races. On paper to some extent this may be true but in reality genetic differences are very real. The best way to illustrate this point is put 10 people on the DP Ketogenic diet which would be similar to the diet your talking about with the tribes men. Some of the ten will react very well to the diet and maintain or even gain muscle while on it. Others will simply flatten out and become weak.

All apes are very similar genetically (in fact they are pretty damn similar to humans) however go to the zoo and observe a chimp and then observe a silverback and you will see that there are vast differences in genetics. The exact same goes for the human races.


----------



## IanStu

Con said:


> 450 grams of carbs? You must have a great metabolism mate because i would become very porky very quickly eating that number of carbs. I personally get in any where between 150-400 grams in when trying to gain muscle then on some days i eat a lot more. At the end of the day you have to adjust as you go along.
> 
> Prodiver I do believe we are both missing each others points to some extent because that is not what i was talking about....... However i take it your end point is listen to your body don't gain weight for the sake of gaining weight and just eat enough to maintain your intense work outs/life style. I agree with that end of story:beer:
> 
> One point i will have to disagree with and their certainly will be no changing of my mind on this one. Its yours/Mike M's view that human genetics are so similar that the same rules apply to all races. On paper to some extent this may be true but in reality genetic differences are very real. The best way to illustrate this point is put 10 people on the DP Ketogenic diet which would be similar to the diet your talking about with the tribes men. Some of the ten will react very well to the diet and maintain or even gain muscle while on it. Others will simply flatten out and become weak.
> 
> * All apes are very similar genetically (in fact they are pretty damn similar to humans) however go to the zoo and observe a chimp and then observe a silverback and you will see that there are vast differences in genetics. The exact same goes for the human races.*


Gotta be a bit pedantic Con and pick you up on that....Chimps and Gorrilas are different species, all humans are **** sapiens....but I do agree that there are huge body differences between different races.

Also just refering back to olive oil having propeties that can speed up metabolism....does anyone know how this happens...I cant figure it out...what is the property and why is it different to any vegetable oil?


----------



## martin brown

Con - 450g of carbs is not alot mate! I don't get fatter and I'd guess my carb intake exceeds 6-700g on average.

I still don't believe lowering carb intake can make somebody grow muscle better. It's just too theorised with zero actual evidence. There are 20million + people in the UK who are proof the fastest way to put on weight is high carb high cal diets. These people also gain muscle with almost zero exercise from this surplus of energy.

The human body is designed to adapt to it's environment. Starve it and it will slow everything down and bite you in the ass. Overfeed and it will do it's best to use the energy provided.

No-one can deny the ideal situation is high cals in + high metabolism for building muscle.


----------



## spaynter

Really interesting and educational thread. I agree with prodiver with the caveat that individuals in some races have become 'carb adapted'. I would count competition bodybuilders as probably all being 'carb adapted' or 'those with superior genetics (mesomorphs). Obviously Con falls into this group hence his experience. And gear obviously helps....

Ultimately though, any diet which minimises the fat storing effects of insulin should be the recommended diet to non-training individuals and obesity wouldn't be such an issue. Obviously low carb diets would do this......

From an ethological POV, comparing a gorilla to a chimp, is like comparing humans to gibbons. All different species. You'd have to compare a chimp from Africa to a chimp from Europe to be analagous for the human example.

Unfortunately, all great apes tend to live clustered (mostly in Africa), so it's difficult to draw comparisons.


----------



## Guest

IanStu said:


> Gotta be a bit pedantic Con and pick you up on that....Chimps and Gorrilas are different species, all humans are **** sapiens....but I do agree that there are huge body differences between different races.
> 
> Also just refering back to olive oil having propeties that can speed up metabolism....does anyone know how this happens...I cant figure it out...what is the property and why is it different to any vegetable oil?


Sure mate i do realize this but on the genetic level they are not that different. Just like humans are not that different on a purely dna basis but come on every single race has their very own particular set of attributes. That's due to selective breeding over the ages. So to say some african tribe over in the african desert who have been bred for thousands of years to store their fat within their muscles not on the out side to prevent over heating will react the same way as some one like my self with a strongly Germanic/Nordic back ground is just silly.

Thinking back i do wish i had used a better example as this has made my point weaker FFS

My point is all mammals are genetically very similar but they all react very differently to various stimulus.



martin brown said:


> Con - 450g of carbs is not alot mate! I don't get fatter and I'd guess my carb intake exceeds 6-700g on average.
> 
> I still don't believe lowering carb intake can make somebody grow muscle better. It's just too theorised with zero actual evidence. There are 20million + people in the UK who are proof the fastest way to put on weight is high carb high cal diets. These people also gain muscle with almost zero exercise from this surplus of energy.
> 
> The human body is designed to adapt to it's environment. Starve it and it will slow everything down and bite you in the ass. Overfeed and it will do it's best to use the energy provided.
> 
> No-one can deny the ideal situation is high cals in + high metabolism for building muscle.


Really? Well that's fair enough mate. Some days i would eat a lot more more but usually i try and keep carbs lower and fats higher. I naturally dislike eating a lot of carbs i always have so i actually have to force them down most of the time. Plus i gain weight far too easily for example i have been back to eating about 4k per day for the past 3 weeks and i already shot back from low 220s to 236lb this am. If i simply ate and ate i would soon become very heavy and feel like rubbish.


----------



## spaynter

Con said:


> Sure mate i do realize this but on the genetic level they are not that different. Just like humans are not that different on a purely dna basis but come on every single race has their very own particular set of attributes. That's due to selective breeding over the ages. So to say some african tribe over in the african desert who have been bred for thousands of years to store their fat within their muscles not on the out side to prevent over heating will react the same way as some one like my self with a strongly Germanic/Nordic back ground is just silly.
> 
> Thinking back i do wish i had used a better example as this has made my point weaker FFS
> 
> My point is all mammals are genetically very similar but they all react very differently to various stimulus.
> 
> Really? Well that's fair enough mate. Some days i would eat a lot more more but usually i try and keep carbs lower and fats higher. I naturally dislike eating a lot of carbs i always have so i actually have to force them down most of the time. Plus i gain weight far too easily for example i have been back to eating about 4k per day for the past 3 weeks and i already shot back from low 220s to 236lb this am. If i simply ate and ate i would soon become very heavy and feel like rubbish.


Thousands of years is just the blink of an eye in evolutionary terms though. What carbs were Germanic people eating 1000 years ago? They were eating Meat (whole animals), Fish, roots and berries and a little fruit like most others. There's only so much adaption that can happen in 50 generations.


----------



## willsey4

Liking the thread Paddy.

Combine this along with TT thread on routine and diet and it gives you a good base.

I know eat approx 4 physical meals per day with 3-4 shakes. I eat when im hungry and do not stress as much about getting the cals in.

I feel a lot better for it.


----------



## IanStu

Con said:


> My point is all mammals are genetically very similar but they all react very differently to various stimulus.


this actualy always amazes me how close geneticaly we are to other species...not just mammals....a blade of grass has about 40% human DNA in it...of course I dont suppose it should be that surprising it simply points to the fact that all life came from the same origin.

Oooppps gone completely off topic..sorry


----------



## Guest

spaynter said:


> Thousands of years is just the blink of an eye in evolutionary terms though. What carbs were Germanic people eating 1000 years ago? They were eating Meat (whole animals), Fish, roots and berries and a little fruit like most others. There's only so much adaption that can happen in 50 generations.


Ok but think of any physical trait or disorder once it occurs in a family it passes down the new generations quickly it does not require thousands of years to achieve this. So the guys out in africa genetically are bred to hold their fat within their muscles because the guys that would have held it mainly on the outside would have over heated when running across the desert for 30 miles per day or whatever they did. Now white people need the fat on the out side of their bodies to survive journeys such as from greenland to america and so on.

Using people as examples Leo Ingrim is a top bodybuilder his diet consists of 5lb of meat per day with very little else. He gains muscle just fine on this diet he is huge and ripped. Now do you think that YOU could follow the same diet and look the same way? No of course you could not so obviously there had to be some genetic adaption that allows this to occur.


----------



## Guest

IanStu said:


> this actualy always amazes me how close geneticaly we are to other species...not just mammals....a blade of grass has about 40% human DNA in it...of course I dont suppose it should be that surprising it simply points to the fact that all life came from the same origin.
> 
> Oooppps gone completely off topic..sorry


No why is it off topic, seems very on topic to me!

Just as you have said all life is very similar some forms are just more complex than others. Thus IMO you simply can not use the argument "all humans are so similar genetically that we can all do the same thing and have similar results". This point has been argued many times by many people but it is simply false.

Look there is not even one concrete 100% accepted theory on why muscle growth occurs, if there is one by all means show me. So all these theories even the theories from guys that i admire like MM are simply that THEORIES.

TT method of training works great just look at him and his friends that also follow this method. The problem is as soon as some "new" method comes out every one jumps on this god damn band wagon and goes "oh this is the one true way of training the lord has showed me the way". What an total crock of ****! What does TT/MM/Milos/westside/and every other training method that gives results have in common? HARD WORK nothing else they all use different frequencies rep ranges ext but they all focus on pushing the body hard.

Now this is going to insult a lot of people but i don't really care......How little faith in your own training abilities do you guys have? I mean all that needs to happen is that some well spoken big guy comes along on the internet and goes "here is my training method look at how great i look" and you all go "well **** if it works for him it will work for me" and you drop what ever you had been doing completely and follow **** first into this completely new method. Do you honestly think that you will have found the holy grail? Now you are going to be the next professional bodybuilder because you have discovered this new way of training? I always have lmao when i read sites like IM and they go on about their DC training. This **** is nothing new it is simply "hard work" repackaged under a different name. I think if you guys stopped flip flopping from one program to another and focused day in day out on pushing your body hard and then backing off resting and eating the right foods there would be a lot more happy and dare i say it muscular guys that actually look like they work out in the world.

P.S. the exact same goes for eating. Some guy who has a better build than you says "eat my way and be awesome like me" and you all follow along blindly like lambs to the slaughter! Take a good look in the mirror and then look at your log book (if you even have one!!!) and you should be able to determine what your doing wrong.....i mean your not idiots, are you?


----------



## spaynter

Con said:


> Ok but think of any physical trait or disorder once it occurs in a family it passes down the new generations quickly it does not require thousands of years to achieve this. So the guys out in africa genetically are bred to hold their fat within their muscles because the guys that would have held it mainly on the outside would have over heated when running across the desert for 30 miles per day or whatever they did. Now white people need the fat on the out side of their bodies to survive journeys such as from greenland to america and so on.
> 
> Using people as examples Leo Ingrim is a top bodybuilder his diet consists of 5lb of meat per day with very little else. He gains muscle just fine on this diet he is huge and ripped. Now do you think that YOU could follow the same diet and look the same way? No of course you could not so obviously there had to be some genetic adaption that allows this to occur.


I agree natural selection has played a part in optimising body composition of different races for the conditions they live in. But give Masai a 'western' diet, and they'll get fat (this has been done). Why not give a European a Masai diet to get lean?

As for Leo Ingram, you'd need to get a European mesomorph on the same gear and give them the same keto-like diet and see what happens..... Perhaps it would work.


----------



## Prodiver

Con said:


> ...
> 
> One point i will have to disagree with and their certainly will be no changing of my mind on this one. Its yours/Mike M's view that human genetics are so similar that the same rules apply to all races. On paper to some extent this may be true but in reality genetic differences are very real. The best way to illustrate this point is put 10 people on the DP Ketogenic diet which would be similar to the diet your talking about with the tribes men. Some of the ten will react very well to the diet and maintain or even gain muscle while on it. Others will simply flatten out and become weak.
> 
> All apes are very similar genetically (in fact they are pretty damn similar to humans) however go to the zoo and observe a chimp and then observe a silverback and you will see that there are vast differences in genetics. The exact same goes for the human races.


I'm very wary of attributing different outcomes to genetics, Con.

All humans are genetically much more similar to each other than a chimp is to a silverback!

You'd have to put all 10 people on the same daily workload and feed them exactly the same quantites of the same foods at the same times each day to see if the results differ significantly.

Bodybuilders achieve different outcomes on the "same" diet and the "same" workout routine because actually of course in practice they're no such thing!

We tend to use the word "genetic" too casually in bodybuilding. A bodybuilder who is "genetically gifted" doesn't have any significant different genes from any other human - he simply has more of the advantageous morphologic variations than average: a relatively shorter neck, wider shoulders and smaller waist, for instance.

It turns out that humans' digestive systems are remarkably similar. This is why we can make any ball-park assumptions at all on how many calories and how much protein and fats we need to support certain activities.

Whether big or small in stature and musculature, people have remarkably similar calorie needs, because gravity, objects and tasks out in the world are the same for us all. Bigger guys only need a few more calories a day to carry their higher body mass around. Those who have a higher calorific expenditure, like navvies and bodybuilders, need to eat more calories.

But a guy with bigger muscles needs a larger and rising amount of protein proportionately to grow them, and this can be deduced from bodyweight.


----------



## Prodiver

martin brown said:


> ...
> 
> I still don't believe lowering carb intake can make somebody grow muscle better. It's just too theorised with zero actual evidence. There are 20million + people in the UK who are proof the fastest way to put on weight is high carb high cal diets. *These people also gain muscle with almost zero exercise from this surplus of energy*. ...


I've not been able to find any evidence that supports this, Martin, and I doubt you can either. It's the old bodybuilding nostrum, and it defies nutritional logic. Energy is consumed in movement: it cannot be metabolized to muscle. Excess calories are always stored as fat!

Some very fat people do become somewhat stronger in certain muscles over long periods because they have to move huge bodyweights, but the sort of extra weight of fat put on by bulking bodybuilders could never cause appreciable increases in muscle strength!


----------



## Prodiver

spaynter said:


> I agree natural selection has played a part in optimising body composition of different races for the conditions they live in. But give Masai a 'western' diet, and they'll get fat (this has been done). Why not give a European a Masai diet to get lean?
> 
> As for Leo Ingram, you'd need to get a European mesomorph on the same gear and give them the same keto-like diet and see what happens..... Perhaps it would work.


The human alimentary system is much more adaptable than many think - as survival would demand.

For instance, in the UK over the last 50 years we've become accustomed to eating much more spicy food in the form of curries than in the previous 300, and curries are very corrosive, yet we survive and enjoy them!

Neverthelss the hunter-gatherer diet which humans have eaten for milennia until only a few thousand years ago has a lot to recommend it for lean musculature. The Masai diet is only slightly different in that it includes herded animals and milk.

It's refined carbs which are the big western dietary problem, and bodybuilders seeking lean muscles are probably wise to avoid them.


----------



## hilly

Prodiver said:


> The problem is, hilly, that most people still equate putting on weight directly with adding muscle.
> 
> Though protein, and ultimately muscle itself for survival can be turned into energy, no amount of carbs in the world can be turned into protein, which is essential for muscle maintenance and growth.
> 
> Theoretically you could, like the Masai, who eat only beef, milk and blood, subsist almost entirely on protein and fat and no carbs, since surplus protein and fat can be utilized by the body for energy. The Masai are noted for their stature, muscularity and lean body mass. They only very occasionally eat fruit, nuts and honey when available.
> 
> Their leanness is attributable to the efficiency with which their bodies store and burn bodyfat, not because of cardio, though they dance a lot, but because of the absense of carbs, yet they also pack on muscle very efficiently too, especially at puberty.
> 
> Since our genes are virtually the same as theirs, there's absolutely no reason to suppose that our bodies should react differently.
> 
> You do not need to eat so much protein, fats and especially carbs that you store bodyfat. You only need sufficient protein and fats for muscle growth, and carbs for daily energy, and the most practical way to control your bodyfat is to control your carbs.
> 
> Another problem, which supports the inconvenient eat only when hungry idea, is that we are used to eating regularly, and so tend to eat more carbs than we need in order to feel sated, or because we rigidly follow a diet plan whether we need that amount of carbs that day or not - which means fat storage.
> 
> This why it's so rare to find a bodybuilder who is growing lean muscle but not storing bodyfat.
> 
> At first when you limit your carbs, especially if you're used to bulking, you feel you lack energy, and some fear they'll lose power and gains, so they still tend to gorge. It's a fine balance, but when achieved you should have good bodyfat mobility and ample energy for life and workouts without getting fatter. Of course it's an even finer balance to have sufficient energy and lose bodyfat, but it is possible without limiting muscle gains.
> 
> *Brabus seems to have got this right, and from what he says and nutrition theory, muscle gains are probably enhanced by limiting carb intake*. :thumb:


Yes but when brabus stated he has made his best gains to date this was taking in more carbs than protein.

I no this as i am getting help from the same guy he is and during off season he has us eating 50g carbs per meal and 40g protein with some fat. only when hungry,


----------



## Prodiver

hilly said:


> Yes but when brabus stated he has made his best gains to date t*his was taking in more carbs than protein*.
> 
> I no this as i am getting help from the same guy he is and during off season he has us eating 50g carbs per meal and 40g protein with some fat. only when hungry,


More grams of carbs than protein? So what?

He needs sufficient ptotein to grow, and just sufficient carbs for energy.

He may well need more grams of carbs than protein for enough energy for his particlar daily life and intense workouts, but he is still controlling them so there is no excess.

I never suggested that the necessary carbs would be less in grams than the protein!


----------



## hilly

Prodiver said:


> More grams of carbs than protein? So what?
> 
> He needs sufficient ptotein to grow, and just sufficient carbs for energy.
> 
> He may well need more grams of carbs than protein for enough energy for his particlar daily life and intense workouts, but he is still controlling them so there is no excess.
> 
> I never suggested that the necessary carbs would be less in grams than the protein!


I no you didnt mate, what i was trying to get at is some people are reading this as they should cut their carb intake. like littlechris has cut his in half.

If progress is being made and people are not putting much to any fat on but they cut their carbs surely they will have to replace these cals with protein or fat or they will loose weight???


----------



## Prodiver

hilly said:


> I no you didnt mate, what i was trying to get at is some people are reading this as they should cut their carb intake. like littlechris has cut his in half.
> 
> If progress is being made and people are not putting much to any fat on but they cut their carbs surely they will have to replace these cals with protein or fat or they will loose weight???


If they are not putting on any fat and they cut their carbs, they will deplete any further bodyfat they have.

They can still grow lean muscle providing they eat enough protein. Since muscle weighs slightly more than fat they may actually get heavier.

Eventually, when their bodyfat stores are almost depleted, if they do not increase their fat and carb sources they will start to become seriously exhausted, and start to lose muscle.


----------



## hilly

Prodiver said:


> If they are not putting on any fat and they cut their carbs, they will deplete any further bodyfat they have.
> 
> *They can still grow lean muscle providing they eat enough protein. Since muscle weighs slightly more than fat they may actually get heavier.*
> 
> Eventually, when their bodyfat stores are almost depleted, if they do not increase their fat and carb sources they will start to become seriously exhausted, and start to lose muscle.


Very interesting point. ive always been taugh to belive that if i am eating a certain amount of cals say X and maintaining then i reduce cals wether its from protein/carbs or fat i will not put on any muscle.

Now at the moment i am eating when hungry and i am by the looks of things and numbers in the gym getting stronger while weight stays the same altho i am looking leaner and more vascular so this would mean i am dropping fat and gaining muscle.

However if i was eating a set amount of cals per day and maintaining then i droped them i dont believe this would happeni think i would just loose weight and not put on any muscle.

ydo you think its the varying amounts i am eating per day due to eating when hungry that is helping this recomp process?


----------



## Rebus

Prodiver said:


> If you're hungry all the time it indicates your body is metabolizing your food very quickly and efficiently and is trying to grow hard.
> 
> So you may need to eat more protein, fats and carbs, but still control your carb intake so you don't store any excess calories as fat.


Concur to the above... :thumbup1:


----------



## Prodiver

hilly said:


> Very interesting point. ive always been taugh to belive that if i am eating a certain amount of cals say X and maintaining then i reduce cals wether its from protein/carbs or fat i will not put on any muscle.
> 
> Now at the moment i am eating when hungry and i am by the looks of things and numbers in the gym getting stronger while weight stays the same altho i am looking leaner and more vascular so this would mean i am dropping fat and gaining muscle.
> 
> However if i was eating a set amount of cals per day and maintaining then i droped them i dont believe this would happeni think i would just loose weight and not put on any muscle.
> 
> ydo you think its the varying amounts i am eating per day due to eating when hungry that is helping this recomp process?


If you are getting leaner yet putting on muscle, staying the same weight and have enough energy to work out hard, you must have your protein, fat and carb intakes sustantially correct, even if you only eat when hungry.

This word maintaining rears its head again! Maintaining what - fat or muscle!?

Providing you don't drop your carb intake too low, you can lose bodyfat and have enough energy to grow lean muscle at the same time, if you eat enough protein and fats. If you drop your carbs too low you'll become exhausted, especially when you've no more useable bodyfat.

I really don't know how many more ways I can explain this!


----------



## Rebus

hilly said:


> Very interesting point. ive always been taugh to belive that if i am eating a certain amount of cals say X and maintaining then i reduce cals wether its from protein/carbs or fat i will not put on any muscle.
> 
> Now at the moment i am eating when hungry and i am by the looks of things and numbers in the gym getting stronger while weight stays the same altho i am looking leaner and more vascular so this would mean i am dropping fat and gaining muscle.
> 
> However if i was eating a set amount of cals per day and maintaining then i droped them i dont believe this would happeni think i would just loose weight and not put on any muscle.
> 
> ydo you think its the varying amounts i am eating per day due to eating when hungry that is helping this recomp process?


I havnt believed a calorie is a calorie for a long time in relation to us as bodybuilders...

If we just dropped calories, regardless of its source we would just become a smaller version of what we already were, particularly if the calorie drop was say dropped equally with all 3 macro's....Baring in mind carbs and protein are approx 4 calories per gram where as fat id 9 calories.

We have to remember we are all different and as such we metabolise nutrients differently. That being said in general, if carbs are dropped and protein and fats kept up, we would burn more fat stores for energy..

A number of years ago i equally dropped protein and upped carbohydrates as i wasnt eating many at all. I had felt great etc, but was advised by a dietician to do it. So i gave it a go. Now calorie wise the amounts stayed exactly the same, but i ballooned up terrible and felt awful. I then reverted back to what i had been doing, ie equally upped protein and dropped carbs and hey ho, the fat and water dropped off and i leaned up nicely.

Still happens now when i start diets. I drop carbs, up protein and within a week im about 7lb lighter....initial water drop which then steadies to 2-3lb maybe. Infact that tend to stop as i seem to add muscle with the increased protein...


----------



## LittleChris

Eat enough so as not to get fat.

Train hard.

Rest.

Inject drugs.

Thats the secret.

Reps my way please


----------



## Prodiver

LittleChris said:


> *Eat enough so as not to get fat.*
> 
> Train hard.
> 
> Rest.
> 
> Inject drugs.
> 
> Thats the secret.
> 
> Reps my way please


Yebbut eat how much of what?


----------



## LittleChris

Prodiver said:


> Yebbut eat how much of what?


No need to complicate that nice succicnt post! :lol:


----------



## Prodiver

LittleChris said:


> No need to complicate that nice succicnt post! :lol:


Sometimes I don't know why I bother!


----------



## Dsahna

I understand pat:wink:


----------



## pecman

i totally agree with all of this, I have not counted callories since my contest preps..

As you get a lot older you get a lot more commitments in your life and all this eat 6k callories a day is just madness, your home life would implode..

At the moment i have a young demanding boy, And moving house + work 12 hr night and days. So all this diet stuff i see guys posting up is too unrealistic to me. Fine when i was 22 with just my cock to keep.

But then i have never eaten like that. I eat the way PD has layed out and by the end of 2010 i could be close to 20st from a starting point of 10st 8 ish.

So IMO AND experience you can grow on these diets and still have time to enjoy the finer things in life..


----------



## jamie seagia

Prodiver said:


> Many on UK-M seem to be obsessed with gaining weight!
> 
> I'm sure what they really want is to gain maximum lean muscle mass as soon as possible.
> 
> While of course you need to eat sufficient food to grow, it's a mistake - and a waste of time and money - to bulk up only to have to shed fat!
> 
> It's perfectly possible to gain lean muscle mass and lose fat at the same time.
> 
> *Don't listen to all the stuff about how many calories you must eat.* Sure you need to eat plenty, but the actual numbers are irrelevant because your daily life, workout intensity and even the ambient temperature, etc. vary significantly: you cannot know how many calories you will need in advance, and you cannot accurately calculate your calorie intake and utilization anyway!
> 
> Approach your bodybuilding diet in a different, simple, pragmatic way:
> 
> Eat sufficient protein to grow: 2 gms per kg actual bodyweight per day will give you a good margin. (47% of unused protein is turned to carbs.) Eat loads of meat, whole eggs, fish, cheese, milk, and top up with shakes.
> 
> Then don't worry about eating good fats. Some will be in your protein foods, but also eat real butter, salad dressings and mayo, peanut butter. Good fats are essential for vitamin and gear utilization.
> 
> Then eat only just enough carbs for energy to power your daily life and intense workouts, and no more. This will train your bod to use its fat stores first and most efficiently. It's your carb intake that determines your fat storage.
> 
> Get your carbs mostly from salads, vegetables and fruit, and then from potatoes, rice, wholemeal bread and pasta. The quicker carbs will provide energy when you need it but be metabolized fast and direct your bod back to its fat reserves.
> 
> Before working out eat protein and a little carbs for energy, and the same after working out for the insulin spike to drive the nutrients into your system. The carbs can be anything fast like fruit or a mars bar. The after-workout protein and carbs can be a main meal.
> 
> You do not need to eat little and often, as a paper cited on UK-M a while back showed. 3 main meals a day will work fine, You can have your top-up shakes, and a little carbs, such as fruit, as necessary, between meals.
> 
> Eat a protein, fat and carbs meal before bed, like a tuna or chicken wholemeal sandwich or a shake and some fruit, to stay anabolic. Then don't eat breakfast when you get up, but a couple of hours later when you've done some travelling, work or cardio and your bod has tapped its fat reserves.
> 
> If you lack power and are generally tired, especially on work-out days, up your carbs a little until you have ample energy; if you are not losing flab or are getting porkier, back the carbs off. Once you get the balance right it only takes a day or so to see the difference in the mirror.
> 
> You'll quickly "know" how much carbs to eat and can vary how much and what to eat meal by meal.
> 
> Using this approach you have to calculate nothing except your rising protein intake as you gain lean mass, but you will be able to lose flab at the same time and yet can eat almost anything.
> 
> Please note this is not a finely-gauged contest prep diet! For that, consult an expert.


pordiver anychance on sorting me a diet i have 1 but finding hard to maintain

if you do me 1 ill go shopping tomoz and try my best to keep to it ive started a cycle of test/dbol on the monday just gone and reali wanna get the most out of it its my first cycle so i hope to get good gains but wont if i dont now wat to eat 1 weigh 11st 8lb 5ft 9 and body fat is 13.2 atm please help me man nite


----------



## pecman

jamie seagia said:


> pordiver anychance on sorting me a diet i have 1 but finding hard to maintain
> 
> if you do me 1 ill go shopping tomoz and try my best to keep to it ive started a cycle of test/dbol on the monday just gone and reali wanna get the most out of it its my first cycle so i hope to get good gains but wont if i dont now wat to eat 1 weigh 11st 8lb 5ft 9 and body fat is 13.2 atm please help me man nite


Mate i hope this don't come across rude but why the hell did you start steroids and you have no idea what to eat:confused1: :confused1:

then you ask him to spend a large amount of time doing you a diet only to TRY MY BEST TO KEEP TO It:confused1:

If you read the whole thread it tells you what to eat as a guide, just do that, It's really not that difficult..


----------



## jamie seagia

pecman said:


> Mate i hope this don't come across rude but why the hell did you start steroids and you have no idea what to eat:confused1: :confused1:
> 
> then you ask him to spend a large amount of time doing you a diet only to TRY MY BEST TO KEEP TO It:confused1:
> 
> If you read the whole thread it tells you what to eat as a guide, just do that, It's really not that difficult..


i am finding it hard to eat atm i have no idea why but i just am i think i should start a whole different deit to bulk and put mass on now i was growing on my last deit only problem i was eating chicken every 2hours evenaly got sick of the taste

i think if i had beef/veg or pork/veg some meat each different mael would help me get back eating just to change for a couple months instead of tryin to eat chicken all the time wat you think m8 sorry for being cheeky


----------



## Prodiver

jamie seagia said:


> i am finding it hard to eat atm i have no idea why but i just am i think i should start a whole different deit to bulk and put mass on now i was growing on my last deit only problem i was eating chicken every 2hours evenaly got sick of the taste
> 
> i think if i had beef/veg or pork/veg some meat each different mael would help me get back eating just to change for a couple months instead of tryin to eat chicken all the time wat you think m8 sorry for being cheeky


Pecman's right, Jamie (thanks Pecman!).

If you read the OP you can deduce what's essential.

But anyway:

Eat 2 gms protein/kg bodyweight/ day. You're 11 stone 8 or 73.6 kg. So eat 150 gms protein a day, and rising as you get heavier. There's no point in eating too much protein as 47% of the excess will only be turned into carbs.

Get your protein from a range of real foods first: meats, fish, eggs, cheese, milk, etc. and top up with shakes.

You'll get some fats in your protein foods, but don't be afraid to eat some more: real butter, olive oil salad dressings, mayo, peanut butter...

Then for carb energy eat fruit and vegetables, salads, potatoes and wholemeal bread, rice and pasta.

But control - limit - your carbs so you don't get porkier but have enough energy for your daily life and intense workouts.

An occasional pudding or pastry will do no harm - just look in the mirror to ensure you contol the carbs so as not to get porky!

There are a few refinements in the OP about no carbs before breakfast, a before bed meal and pre- and post-workout meals.


----------



## jamie seagia

thanks mate and im sorry  just cant seem to get anyin down me


----------



## Prodiver

jamie seagia said:


> thanks mate and im sorry  just cant seem to get anyin down me


It's Saturday - go and get a huge Burger King Angus double whoppa or whatever and a choccy milkshake and enjoy it!

One or two of these a week will do you no harm.

Just watch the carbs - buns and chips, etc so you don't get porkier.


----------



## jamie seagia

Prodiver said:


> It's Saturday - go and get a huge Burger King Angus double whoppa or whatever and a choccy milkshake and enjoy it!
> 
> One or two of these a week will do you no harm.
> 
> Just watch the carbs - buns and chips, etc so you don't get porkier.


thanks man great help


----------



## big

Prodiver said:


> There's no point in eating too much protein as 47% of the excess will only be turned into carbs.


Prodiver, what happens to the other 53% of the excess?

Cheers


----------



## warren

pro - whats your opinion on ntake whilst on cycle? do you think this is still the way to go, or do you think a more accurate approch should be taken to best take advantage of the course thanks


----------



## warren

big said:


> Prodiver, what happens to the other 53% of the excess?
> 
> Cheers


iv always though it was excreeded out??


----------



## big

Well I've never poo'd out a chicken breast myself


----------



## jamie seagia

hahahahaa


----------



## Prodiver

warren_1987 said:


> iv always though it was excreeded out??


It's turned into solid wastes (if any) and urea which you pi$$ - and if much too much: proteinurea - protein in your pi$$, which bodybuilders often have and which is a waste of protein and a minor strain on the kidneys.


----------



## Prodiver

warren_1987 said:


> pro - whats your opinion on ntake whilst on cycle? do you think this is still the way to go, or do you think a more accurate approch should be taken to best take advantage of the course thanks


Everything I've suggested is for serious bodybuilders on gear.

As the gear works, you'll synhesize muscle faster, so get heavier, and therefore have to up your protein intake sooner, as well as fats.

You'll be able to work out more intensely too, so you'll need more energy - carbs - but just control them so you don't get porkier, or stay the same, or lose fat slowly - whatever you want to achieve.

Your protein intake is the only calculation you have to make. You can eat everything else.


----------



## big

Prodiver said:


> It's turned into solid wastes (if any) and urea which you **** - hence proteinurea - protein in your ****, which bodybuilders often have and which is a waste of protein and a minor strain on the kidneys.


Ok, so logically then, and to clarify, if I had my **** checked, and there isn't excess protein in my ****, then that means I am also not converting protein to carbs, and therefore will get even better results by eating more protein?


----------



## jamie seagia

lol yous are talking about SH1T lol


----------



## big

jamie seagia said:


> lol yous are talking about SH1T lol


We're on to pee pee now mate, try to keep up :thumbup1:


----------



## jamie seagia

lol leave you guys to it gonna go do a big shop now tra lads


----------



## Prodiver

big said:


> Ok, so logically then, and to clarify, if I had my **** checked, and there isn't excess protein in my ****, then that means I am also not converting protein to carbs, and therefore will get even better results by eating more protein?


Yes - good thinking!

I've actually suggested that we use pi$$ test sticks to measure whether and how much protein we have in our pi$$ - they're not too expensive.

You could experiment eating as much protein as poss until it started to appear in your pi$$ - which would mean you're synthesizing the maximum muscle - though you'd be turning some into carbs.

But actually 2gms protein/kg/day seems to be about right and a little conversion to carbs isn't serious - better to have a slight surplus of protein for muscle growth than be bordeline.


----------



## Dsahna

big said:


> We're on to pee pee now mate, try to keep up :thumbup1:


PMSL!!!


----------



## Gza1

Hay pro great thread, really interesting read, admire you for putting the thread up which kind of contradics alot of what people in the industry and mags say, ive always thought lift big eat big = size, but im starting to feel that alot of the carbs i consume arnt realy needed, in arnolds encyclo his meal plans are fairly similar to what you say, what are you thoughs on this..

(Breakfast)

4eggs

8ounces whole milk

1 or 2 slice whole grain bread

1 piece of fruit

(protein = approx 72g

(lunch)

200g meat or fish or cheese

1 or 2 whole meal bread

1 piece fresh fruit

(protein = approx 74g

(dinner)

200g meat, fish or cheese

Baked or steamed potato

Steamed veg

1 piece fresh fruit

8 oz whole milk

(protein = approx 112g


----------



## Prodiver

Gza1 said:


> Hay pro great thread, really interesting read, admire you for putting the thread up which kind of contradics alot of what people in the industry and mags say, ive always thought lift big eat big = size, but im starting to feel that alot of the carbs i consume arnt realy needed, in arnolds encyclo his meal plans are fairly similar to what you say, what are you thoughs on this..
> 
> (Breakfast)
> 
> 4eggs
> 
> 8ounces whole milk
> 
> 1 or 2 slice whole grain bread
> 
> 1 piece of fruit
> 
> (protein = approx 72g
> 
> (lunch)
> 
> 200g meat or fish or cheese
> 
> 1 or 2 whole meal bread
> 
> 1 piece fresh fruit
> 
> (protein = approx 74g
> 
> (dinner)
> 
> 200g meat, fish or cheese
> 
> Baked or steamed potato
> 
> Steamed veg
> 
> 1 piece fresh fruit
> 
> 8 oz whole milk
> 
> (protein = approx 112g


Looks well-balanced to me! The above protein intake would do for someone of around 125 kg.

Adjust the bread and potato portions so you don't get porkier, or lose bodyfat, but have enough energy.

Nice to see someone drinking whole milk!


----------



## big

Prodiver said:


> Yes - good thinking!
> 
> I've actually suggested that we use pi$$ test sticks to measure whether and how much protein we have in our pi$$ - they're not too expensive.
> 
> You could experiment eating as much protein as poss until it started to appear in your pi$$ - which would mean you're synthesizing the maximum muscle - though you'd be turning some into carbs.
> 
> But actually 2gms protein/kg/day seems to be about right and a little conversion to carbs isn't serious - better to have a slight surplus of protein for muscle growth than be bordeline.


Ok, I have ordered some sticks online, I will let the board know the outcome when then come and I wee on them. I have never been so excited to wee on anything in my entire life :whistling:

I am eating at least 350g protein a day (105kg currently), so we'll see how much of that I am wasting or whether I can up it. By your estimation I am wasting about half of the protein I am eating, so I up for finding out either way 

Nice thread BTW, if I haven't said already.

Cheers.


----------



## Tinytom

Con said:


> No why is it off topic, seems very on topic to me!
> 
> Just as you have said all life is very similar some forms are just more complex than others. Thus IMO you simply can not use the argument "all humans are so similar genetically that we can all do the same thing and have similar results". This point has been argued many times by many people but it is simply false.
> 
> Look there is not even one concrete 100% accepted theory on why muscle growth occurs, if there is one by all means show me. So all these theories even the theories from guys that i admire like MM are simply that THEORIES.
> 
> TT method of training works great just look at him and his friends that also follow this method. The problem is as soon as some "new" method comes out every one jumps on this god damn band wagon and goes "oh this is the one true way of training the lord has showed me the way". What an total crock of ****! What does TT/MM/Milos/westside/and every other training method that gives results have in common? *HARD WORK* nothing else they all use different frequencies rep ranges ext but they all focus on pushing the body hard.
> 
> Now this is going to insult a lot of people but i don't really care......How little faith in your own training abilities do you guys have? I mean all that needs to happen is that some well spoken big guy comes along on the internet and goes "here is my training method look at how great i look" and you all go "well **** if it works for him it will work for me" and you drop what ever you had been doing completely and follow **** first into this completely new method. Do you honestly think that you will have found the holy grail? Now you are going to be the next professional bodybuilder because you have discovered this new way of training? I always have lmao when i read sites like IM and they go on about their DC training. This **** is nothing new it is simply "hard work" repackaged under a different name. I think if you guys stopped flip flopping from one program to another and focused day in day out on pushing your body hard and then backing off resting and eating the right foods there would be a lot more happy and dare i say it muscular guys that actually look like they work out in the world.
> 
> P.S. the exact same goes for eating. Some guy who has a better build than you says "eat my way and be awesome like me" and you all follow along blindly like lambs to the slaughter! Take a good look in the mirror and then look at your log book (if you even have one!!!) and you should be able to determine what your doing wrong.....i mean your not idiots, are you?


the two mostr important words in any routine:thumb:


----------



## hilly

big said:


> Ok, I have ordered some sticks online, I will let the board know the outcome when then come and I wee on them. I have never been so excited to wee on anything in my entire life :whistling:
> 
> I am eating at least 350g protein a day (105kg currently), so we'll see how much of that I am wasting or whether I can up it. By your estimation I am wasting about half of the protein I am eating, so I up for finding out either way
> 
> Nice thread BTW, if I haven't said already.
> 
> Cheers.


BIG what sticks did you order i wouldnt mind trying this myself


----------



## Gza1

Prodiver said:


> Looks well-balanced to me! The above protein intake would do for someone of around 125 kg.
> 
> Adjust the bread and potato portions so you don't get porkier, or lose bodyfat, but have enough energy.
> 
> Nice to see someone drinking whole milk!


How would you adjust in your opinion? Would there be any need to add shakes? Or do u just add them if you feel the need? Also you say that diet would b good for some one of 125kg, being only 14stone not (sure what that is in kilos) how much would i need to cut?


----------



## Prodiver

big said:


> Ok, I have ordered some sticks online, I will let the board know the outcome when then come and I wee on them. I have never been so excited to wee on anything in my entire life :whistling:
> 
> I am eating at least 350g protein a day (105kg currently), so we'll see how much of that I am wasting or whether I can up it. By your estimation I am wasting about half of the protein I am eating, so I up for finding out either way
> 
> Nice thread BTW, if I haven't said already.
> 
> Cheers.


Now before we get any medics shooting me down in flames, I should say that assessing our protein levels with pi$$ sticks isn't quite as simple as just reading the proteiuria levels.

Abnormal proteinuria is usually an indicator of kidney malfunction.

Really high excess protein intake can show as proteiuria, but long before that happens the body will convert excess protein into glucose and urea, and it is abnormal urea levels that we should be interested in.

I shall do some more research!


----------



## Prodiver

Gza1 said:


> How would you adjust in your opinion? Would there be any need to add shakes? Or do u just add them if you feel the need? Also you say that diet would b good for some one of 125kg, being only 14stone not (sure what that is in kilos) how much would i need to cut?


Well, to adjust your carb intake just reduce the number of slices of bread or the size of a potato!

If your protein values are correct for the portions you eat, your diet would suit a guy of 125 kg without any need for shakes.

Don't overestimate the protein content of food portions, though.

14 stones is 89 kg (14*14/2.2) so you need to eat 180 gms protein a day.


----------



## warren

Gza1 said:


> Hay pro great thread, really interesting read, admire you for putting the thread up which kind of contradics alot of what people in the industry and mags say, ive always thought lift big eat big = size, but im starting to feel that alot of the carbs i consume arnt realy needed, in arnolds encyclo his meal plans are fairly similar to what you say, what are you thoughs on this..
> 
> (Breakfast)
> 
> 4eggs
> 
> 8ounces whole milk
> 
> 1 or 2 slice whole grain bread
> 
> 1 piece of fruit
> 
> (protein = approx 72g
> 
> (lunch)
> 
> 200g meat or fish or cheese
> 
> 1 or 2 whole meal bread
> 
> 1 piece fresh fruit
> 
> (protein = approx 74g
> 
> (dinner)
> 
> 200g meat, fish or cheese
> 
> Baked or steamed potato
> 
> Steamed veg
> 
> 1 piece fresh fruit
> 
> 8 oz whole milk
> 
> (protein = approx 112g


i wonder how he timed these meals to suit work outs and recovery. any ideas? and thanks pro for the post on how it differs or doesnt for the assisted trainer reps


----------



## big

hilly said:


> BIG what sticks did you order i wouldnt mind trying this myself


These ones bud:

http://www.chemistdirect.co.uk/bayer-multistix-gp-x-25_1_1031.html

They haven't arrived yet, I only ordered them today, so I can't vouch for the company yet. I just found them on google.


----------



## Prodiver

big said:


> These ones bud:
> 
> http://www.chemistdirect.co.uk/bayer-multistix-gp-x-25_1_1031.html
> 
> They haven't arrived yet, I only ordered them today, so I can't vouch for the company yet. I just found them on google.


I've been talking to a couple of medic friends. They point out that some proteinuria is normal, especially in bodybuilders; and that excess levels of protein intake may show as increased proteinuria, but that you'd need to be sure you have no underlying disease for which it's an indicator, and to have an idea of your normal proteinuria level.

So you'll need to keep a detailed log of proteinuria level vs protein intake over extended periods to make and sense of how various levels of ingested protein show in your urine.

Prob best to stay at one particular intake, like 2 gms/kg/day, for some days, bearing mind there'll be a time lag between ingestion and excretion.

I have to report that the medics are doubtful that sticks provide a useful indicator of protein metabolization. They think there's no simple test will do. Maybe we'll see...


----------



## TH0R

hilly said:


> BIG what sticks did you order i wouldnt mind trying this myself


Hilly, can't you use BIG's after him, sure he won't mind:whistling:


----------



## jamie seagia

pro since you gave me advice on my food i feel great thanks and cant wait for the gym tonight cheers lad


----------



## spaynter

Prodiver said:


> I've been talking to a couple of medic friends. They point out that some proteinuria is normal, especially in bodybuilders; and that excess levels of protein intake may show as increased proteinuria, but that you'd need to be sure you have no underlying disease for which it's an indicator, and to have an idea of your normal proteinuria level.
> 
> So you'll need to keep a detailed log of proteinuria level vs protein intake over extended periods to make and sense of how various levels of ingested protein show in your urine.
> 
> Prob best to stay at one particular intake, like 2 gms/kg/day, for some days, bearing mind there'll be a time lag between ingestion and excretion.
> 
> I have to report that the medics are doubtful that sticks provide a useful indicator of protein metabolization. They think there's no simple test will do. Maybe we'll see...


A couple of questions:

2g / Kg BW or LBM?

Also, does the quality / completeness of the protein make any difference? 10g of wheat protein against a whole egg for example. Or are you of the school of get a varied diet and all that will sort itself out?


----------



## Prodiver

spaynter said:


> A couple of questions:
> 
> 2g / Kg BW or LBM?
> 
> Also, does the quality / completeness of the protein make any difference? 10g of wheat protein against a whole egg for example. Or are you of the school of get a varied diet and all that will sort itself out?


2gms per kilo actual bodyweight will result in a slightly bigger amount which will provide a comfortable but not excessive margin of intake.

Always go for protein from food first, and the from the most complete protein you can get. Several are available which contain the full spectrum of amino acids and have a very high protein value per scoop.


----------



## willsey4

4 physical meals and some shakes in there a day works well imo


----------



## jamie seagia

yep i agree willsey check my pro and have a look at my progress wat do you think m8


----------



## willsey4

Your pro?

Whats the link?


----------



## dan young

very interesting from pro, i used to eat 5000 calories religously and hated it ,bloated all the time and and a fat gut, i think its time to burn all my muscle mags and flex and listen to you guys.


----------



## jamie seagia

willsey4 said:


> Your pro?
> 
> Whats the link?


erm just search jamie first ever cycle thanks mate let me now wat you theink feedback is always a help:beer:


----------



## big

Ok, well I got my pee pee sticks today and tested myself.

Everything was normal apart from two things:

* slight dehydration (which I expected, I dont drink enough water and have too much caffeine, naughty me)

* slight trace of protein in my pee (the lowest amount on the stick above "normal")

(102kg first thing in the morning nekked, 350g protein a day)

What do you reckon prodiver, up the protein and see what happens? Or is this test on its own not enough to really tell?

Cheers


----------



## Andy Dee

This is exactly what im looking for and why i dont post up about my bulking anymore because for some unknown annoying reason people dont seem to grasp the fact i want lean mass and not fat ass and the term bulk has gone straight out the window.

Gaining stupid dead end weight is not a goal for me and i get sick of people saying if you wanna bulk just bulk. - Yeh thats great advice if i wanted to do your term on bulking id sit at home with 10 cans of stella and a few family bags of doritos and eat sausage fryups every morning swimming in cooking oil.

TT and Prodiver seem to be the only ones that post the goals an methods i want.


----------



## Prodiver

big said:


> Ok, well I got my pee pee sticks today and tested myself.
> 
> Everything was normal apart from two things:
> 
> * slight dehydration (which I expected, I dont drink enough water and have too much caffeine, naughty me)
> 
> * slight trace of protein in my pee (the lowest amount on the stick above "normal")
> 
> (102kg first thing in the morning nekked, 350g protein a day)
> 
> What do you reckon prodiver, up the protein and see what happens? Or is this test on its own not enough to really tell?
> 
> Cheers


How much protein are you on at the moment? The level you measure may equate with that. Keep it the same for a few days and measure it every day.

Then up the protein by a specific amount for a week and measure every day and see what happens. And repeat.

If no change it may indicate you're not wasting any protein, though you may be metabolizing some to glucose...

Let us know what happens!


----------



## Andy Dee

kieren1234 said:


> Excellent thread PD. You touched on this through PM so im glad to read this. I think i am going to give this a shot. I was one of the "the more calories the better" people, but having looked at this, it makes perfect sense.
> 
> Why add loads of fat just to try and shift it when cutting next.
> 
> It will also be ALOT easier for me as my apetite isnt at its best at the moment.
> 
> Some well earned reps on there way dude!!


Kieran, thats exactly what ive been saying all along when ive been bulking, some people just dont get it mate.


----------



## big

Prodiver said:


> How much protein are you on at the moment? The level you measure may equate with that. Keep it the same for a few days and measure it every day.
> 
> Then up the protein by a specific amount for a week and measure every day and see what happens. And repeat.
> 
> If no change it may indicate you're not wasting any protein, though you may be metabolizing some to glucose...
> 
> Let us know what happens!


350g of protein a day. Ive kept it static at that level for a few weeks now. I will see what happens by upping it


----------



## Andy Dee

Jesus h, ive read more, confused.com, to overwhelming but i guess ive got nothing to lose by trying this approach.


----------



## Andy Dee

I would tend to agree with the calorie thing as it is a myth and this is my reason for thinking so.

Take a look at the bodybuilders from the 50s here, they had ripped defined amazing physiques.

Did they achive that size and strenght by eating 1000s of calories a day? no, they cant possibly have done because there was no such access to that kind of food back then as the country was rashioned and they didnt take gear because noone knew what gear was back then so how did they do it?


----------



## Cap'n Beefy

What about going one step further with this?

We think of a ketogenic diet as being intended for fat loss, but I wonder whether increasing the protein and fats beyond the daily requirements would allow for fat free muscle gain, whilst staying on zero carbs.

The body would still be able to convert excess intake for basic energy usage.

You often hear of bodybuilders who are having trouble gaining that increase fats rather than carbs. Gunter Schlierkamp springs to mind. And Dave Palumbo.

Thoughts?? :confused1:


----------



## hilly

its possible to gain muscle on a carb free diet yet not ideal IMO. you need carbs to fuel your workouts and help the body grow and repair. I dont think the amount of protein turned into glucose would be enough to support a growing bodybuilder training very hard.


----------



## Prodiver

A totally carb-free diet might allow lean mass gains but some guys report not being able to gain without a significant amout of carbs.

How true this really is I don't know, as so few have tried limited carb gaining, let alone carb-free.

That's why so far I've only proposed a controlled or limited carb approach.


----------



## big_jim_87

i have only just seen this thred just thought id jump on.

i have bin hitting the 6k cals mark for the past 5-6wks so far not much fat gain i am watery as fuk tho! its all a mental thing for me if i hit 6k i feel like i have eaten enough if i have a lower day (witch i do from time to time) say 4-5k i feel like i could have done better that day. all in my head but that is what bbing is all about? if you can win the game mentaly you got it done!


----------



## Prodiver

big_jim_87 said:


> i have only just seen this thred just thought id jump on.
> 
> i have bin hitting the 6k cals mark for the past 5-6wks so far not much fat gain i am watery as fuk tho! its all a mental thing for me if i hit 6k i feel like i have eaten enough if i have a lower day (witch i do from time to time) say 4-5k i feel like i could have done better that day. all in my head but that is what bbing is all about? if you can win the game mentaly you got it done!


If you're really big, Jim, and work out really hard you may need 6k cals a day.

But that's not the point of this thread.

What I'm proposing is that merely getting a huge amount of cals from some arbitary percentages of protein fat and carbs is irrelevant, though in your case you may just have happened to get this right.

The idea is to calculate only your protein requirements, eat fats in moderation, and control your carbs so you don't put on any fat - so there's no need to bulk and cut.


----------



## Andy Dee

Prodiver said:


> A totally carb-free diet might allow lean mass gains but some guys report not being able to gain without a significant amout of carbs.
> 
> How true this really is I don't know, as so few have tried limited carb gaining, let alone carb-free.
> 
> That's why so far I've only proposed a controlled or limited carb approach.


I would truly croke with no carbs, however ive only ever ate carbs to fuel my workouts and found the peak was 300g per day, wether this is still a lot I dont know but I do know one thing when I was finding my balance with carbs and that is that there was a big difference eating around 220-250 compared to eating 300g+ per day as far as energy during my workouts went.

The rest of my nutrition was increased with high fat intake, there was no reason for this, it was just the way things were and the food i had access to and could get down me was the easiest plan and it just balanced out that way as I always set my goals to reach at least 4000k per day and at least 220g of protein, I knew absoloutly nothing about carbs when I was eating this way. I only ever shot for a caloric count target but now this has made me look at it a different way.

Saying this though a guy at my gym is very very lean and hes pretty huge aswell, I asked him once how many cals do you eat per day? he said ive no idea I dont work it out that way, i just concentrate on for protein and around 250g carbs.

I also know another guy on mesorx forum and hes pretty lean sitting around 210lbs and he says he just eats whenever his body tell me so a lot of things in this article tells me this does work.

Wether it will work for a screaming ecto like me though Ive no idea, ill try it and see if theres any change.

The results should be pretty quick as ive just started back after a year off at the gym and was 30lbs heavier then so it should show pretty quickly.


----------



## Prodiver

andysutils said:


> I would truly croke with no carbs, however ive only ever ate carbs to fuel my workouts and found the peak was 300g per day, wether this is still a lot I dont know but I do know one thing when I was finding my balance with carbs and that is that there was a big difference eating around 220-250 compared to eating 300g+ per day as far as energy during my workouts went.
> 
> The rest of my nutrition was increased with high fat intake, there was no reason for this, it was just the way things were and the food i had access to and could get down me was the easiest plan and it just balanced out that way as I always set my goals to reach at least 4000k per day and at least 220g of protein, I knew absoloutly nothing about carbs when I was eating this way. I only ever shot for a caloric count target but now this has made me look at it a different way.
> 
> Saying this though a guy at my gym is very very lean and hes pretty huge aswell, I asked him once how many cals do you eat per day? he said ive no idea I dont work it out that way, i just concentrate on for protein and around 250g carbs.
> 
> I also know another guy on mesorx forum and hes pretty lean sitting around 210lbs and he says he just eats whenever his body tell me so a lot of things in this article tells me this does work.
> 
> Wether it will work for a screaming ecto like me though Ive no idea, ill try it and see if theres any change.
> 
> The results should be pretty quick as ive just started back after a year off at the gym and was 30lbs heavier then so it should show pretty quickly.


Keep us informed, Andy! :thumb:


----------



## Gza1

It's defo a metal issue I just assume I'm not goin to grow if a idont eat sufficiant carbs, altho I don't know how much I should be taking in. Pro could you give any examples of food portion sizes?


----------



## Prodiver

Gza1 said:


> It's defo a metal issue I just assume I'm not goin to grow if a idont eat sufficiant carbs, altho I don't know how much I should be taking in. Pro could you give any examples of food portion sizes?


The short answer is no!

Forget cals, grams of carbs or portion sizes! Eat whatever you like.

But calculate your protein need and get it mainly from food, eat fats in moderation, and eat only just enough carbs for your energy requirements.

You should have some idea of how much carbs you need from your current diet, but anyway you'll know within a week if you're eating too much carbs because you'll get porkier.

Once you balance your carbs it'll only take a couple of days to know whether you're getting fatter or leaner.


----------



## jamie seagia

update my jornal now pro would you take a luck thanks and you have been such a great help


----------



## GSleigh

Surely if you circle on certain food groups to hit your daily targets as well... without actually counting Macro figures you would hit your total calorie targets and because your only using set groups you know its going to have a good macro break down?

i.e: brown pasta, rice, sweet potatoes, chicken, steak, lean mince, salmon fillets, veg, salad etc....

If you hit 5000 calories a day from eating on very strict and good food groups your gonna be on fire on the macros?


----------



## Prodiver

GSleigh said:


> Surely if you circle on certain food groups to hit your daily targets as well... without actually counting Macro figures you would hit your total calorie targets and because your only using set groups you know its going to have a good macro break down?
> 
> i.e: brown pasta, rice, sweet potatoes, chicken, steak, lean mince, salmon fillets, veg, salad etc....
> 
> If you hit 5000 calories a day from eating on very strict and good food groups your gonna be on fire on the macros?


Er... how can I say this another way..?

There's no need for calorie targets!

Eat what you like. Just make sure your protein requirement is met and balance off your carbs so you don't get porkier or lose fat slowly.

There's no way you can know what amount of calories you should be eating anyway!


----------



## G-man99

Prodiver said:


> Er... how can I say this another way..?
> 
> There's no need for calorie targets!
> 
> Eat what you like. Just make sure your protein requirement is met and balance off your carbs so you don't get porkier or lose fat slowly.
> 
> There's no way you can know what amount of calories you should be eating anyway!


This seems like a really good approach to eating as many people who train always struggle to get enough calories from this that and the other and end up eating the same thing every day.

Personally I find it difficult to do this and your method seems easier to control and gives a much wider variation of foods without constantly stressing about should I eat this or that and ruin all my hard work etc


----------



## Spartorius

This is an outstanding thread. Mega informative and full of lots of really thought provoking views. Thanks for taking the time to contribute. I'm going to give Pro's method a go on this cycle i am on and assess for myself. Thanks again guys.


----------



## Andy Dee

I will start this method again on monday, however, I will be eating every 2-3 hours apart though as always rather than just when im hungry. The reason for this being is I cant stomach that amount of volume in one go to contribute eating just 3 full meals per day, however I wont be concerned at all with cals and will be eating 300g carbs today and not much more or less as i found this is the perfect peak a few years ago.

I will just focus on protein, carbs and the fats should be second nature in what comes from my diet anyway.

At the end of the day if cals dont build muscle then far as im concerned there pretty useless, lean mass is all im interested in, the first generation of bodybuilders didnt have any such thing as 4000+cals per day or gear and they were elite so they cant be that critical.


----------



## GSleigh

Prodiver said:


> Er... how can I say this another way..?
> 
> There's no need for calorie targets!
> 
> Eat what you like. Just make sure your protein requirement is met and balance off your carbs so you don't get porkier or lose fat slowly.
> 
> There's no way you can know what amount of calories you should be eating anyway!


Thats not going to work surely? If i was to eat what i like and hit my 300grams of protien a day target but i just ate mcdonalds, sandwhiches from coop, ready meals from asda to hit the protien target the carbs would be threw the roof on a scale that would be uncontrolable.

if you stick to certain food groups to hit the 300grams protien for example then the carbs will be at a muc more acceptable level... Just eat what you want within certain groups?


----------



## TH0R

GSleigh said:


> Thats not going to work surely? If i was to eat what i like and hit my 300grams of protien a day target but i just ate mcdonalds, sandwhiches from coop, ready meals from asda to hit the protien target the carbs would be threw the roof on a scale that would be uncontrolable.
> 
> if you stick to certain food groups to hit the 300grams protien for example then the carbs will be at a muc more acceptable level... Just eat what you want within certain groups?


Your taking that quote a little out of context, he's already said that you should

keep an eye on carbs and fats.

In essence, prov says that as long as you hit your protein mark, then its just a

matter of eating enough carbs and fats to maintain energy

Not totally convinced myself but its a simpler way than the way I do it, counting

cals, macro's etc.

Hope I got that right Prov:laugh:


----------



## GSleigh

tel3563 said:


> Your taking that quote a little out of context, he's already said that you should
> 
> keep an eye on carbs and fats.
> 
> In essence, prov says that as long as you hit your protein mark, then its just a
> 
> matter of eating enough carbs and fats to maintain energy
> 
> Not totally convinced myself but its a simpler way than the way I do it, counting
> 
> cals, macro's etc.
> 
> Hope I got that right Prov:laugh:


Well right o.k but surely thats an obvious point without being rude?

I guessing breaking it down into calories and macros however just allows you to have more control and if you have the time to make sure that the protien is right in the macro level... you may as well work out the other factors just so you know where you are over or under the recommend level?


----------



## TH0R

GSleigh said:


> Well right o.k but surely thats an obvious point without being rude?
> 
> I guessing breaking it down into calories and macros however just allows you to have more control and if you have the time to make sure that the protien is right in the macro level... you may as well work out the other factors just so you know where you are over or under the recommend level?


He also says that eating same diet, cals, macro's etc every day is of little consequence

as things change every day such as amount of work done, temperature (higher it is

more cals used)

I was very sceptical but the more I think about it the more sense its seems to make:rolleyes:

Have you read TT take on things, I think its a sticky in the beginners section:confused1:


----------



## LittleChris

GSleigh said:


> Well right o.k but surely thats an obvious point without being rude?
> 
> I guessing breaking it down into calories and macros however just allows you to have more control and if you have the time to make sure that the protien is right in the macro level... you may as well work out the other factors just so you know where you are over or under the recommend level?


Not really.

Most people, myself included, followed the sort of diet where you need to eat say 400g carbs, 300g protein, 100g fats. The figures weren't based on anything more than supposition.

The beauty of this appraoch is you can tailor it to fit yourself- add lean muscle and not needless amounts of fat which make you look **** at the end of the day.

I have actually leaned up a little with this appraoch, dropping about 2kilos to 98 and feel a lot better. Less lethargy after meals, no longer bloated and feeling physically sick after a meal.

Its more of an instinctive way to eat and that may not appeal to some people who like to follow guidelines, often blindly and without questioning them solely as they are conventional wisdom.


----------



## GSleigh

Ah fair enough i do get ya there.

Hmmmm.. Been a great thread this! Lots of info. Good one chaps 

Might change my diet in a couple months and take some of that onboard!


----------



## Prodiver

tel3563 said:


> Your taking that quote a little out of context, he's already said that you should
> 
> keep an eye on carbs and fats.
> 
> In essence, prov says that as long as you hit your protein mark, then its just a
> 
> matter of eating enough carbs and fats to maintain energy
> 
> Not totally convinced myself but its a simpler way than the way I do it, counting
> 
> cals, macro's etc.
> 
> Hope I got that right Prov:laugh:


Just about! 

You don't really need to worry much about your fat intake if you watch your carb intake - in fact TT recommends adding pure olive oil to your diet if you don't get sufficient from salad dressings, mayo, etc.

Your body will become accustomed to using all your fats very efficiently, storing and burning them fast when required as long as you limit your carbs to only what's necessary.

Since your bod will get energy from fats and excess protein (hopefully not very much), you'll be surprised at how little carbs you need. But don't drop them so low you lack energy.

The idea that you can know you need, say, 600 grams of carbs, or so many calories from carbs, is absurd - it can only be a guestimate at best because your daily activities and the ambient temperature vary so much, and the efficiency with which you utilize them.


----------



## Andy Dee

Carbs dont mean sh1t apart from being a good energy source far as ive ever been worried about them, I never even thought or counted my carbs ever apart to provide me with sufficiant energy levels during my workouts, i never ever went above 300g of carbs per day and I went from a 119lbs to a 180 in 3-4 years, i just found anything below this carb range fatigued me pretty quickly when it came to workouts and found this was the perfect peak, wether or not that was just in my head playing tricks on me, regardless it worked.

This is how another guy does it I asked when i was at Tans gym (Keith) - someone might know him who trains there too so he can even clarify this if anyone asks him and hes done it exactly the same way for the past 11 years of his training, hes never never ever took cals into account and hes 200lbs solid.

I was going to take my diet and do it the typical 400g carbs and 4000+cals per day, but if cals dont build muscle then wtfs the point.

So my new diet plans going to be this and this is what ill be eating but not particularly in this order.

Breakfast

4 whole eggs

50g oats - maybe ill skip the carbs first thing and use fat reserves?

1 scoop whey powder

mid morning

sardines

1 banana

1 tspoon olive oil

Lunch

150g chicken breast

300g sweat potato

salad with 2 tspoons olive oil

pre workout

1 tspoon natty peanut butter

1 banana

PWO

80g dextrose or potato starch

1 scoop whey powder

1 tspoon natty peanut butter

Dinner

7 oz steak with salad and 1-2 tspoon olive oil

evening

50g oats

1 tspoon natty peanut butter

bed - Carb fat and protein meal before bed to stay anabolic

50g oats

2 tspoon natty peanut butter

1 scoop whey powder

Carbs - 305

Fat 123

Protein 235

This is my way of understanding it anyway and this is how I ate in the beginning before i took the high carb and caloric route apart from my breaskfast and bedtime meal was a lot different with different volumes and always got most of all my protein from real food, if the key is to increase protein to stop the plateu (especially strenght) simply just add another shake or 2 and that would easily increase the protein close to or even over 300g per day, if i wanna increase fats, then i can simply add another few tablespoons of peanut butter or olive oil - easy cals and easy fats if your still hellbent on racking up easy calories.

Maybe if i had followed the caloric and high carb route from the very start of my training, yes I would probably has reached 200lbs, but 200lbs of what.


----------



## jamie seagia

thats not so bad


----------



## Grim_Reaper

andysutils said:


> So my new diet plans going to be this and this is what ill be eating but not particularly in this order.
> 
> Breakfast
> 
> 4 whole eggs
> 
> 50g oats - maybe ill skip the carbs first thing and use fat reserves?
> 
> 1 scoop whey powder
> 
> mid morning
> 
> sardines
> 
> 1 banana
> 
> 1 tspoon olive oil
> 
> Lunch
> 
> 150g chicken breast
> 
> 300g sweat potato
> 
> salad with 2 tspoons olive oil
> 
> pre workout
> 
> 1 tspoon natty peanut butter
> 
> 1 banana
> 
> PWO
> 
> 80g dextrose or potato starch
> 
> 1 scoop whey powder
> 
> 1 tspoon natty peanut butter
> 
> Dinner
> 
> 7 oz steak with salad and 1-2 tspoon olive oil
> 
> evening
> 
> 50g oats
> 
> 1 tspoon natty peanut butter
> 
> bed - Carb fat and protein meal before bed to stay anabolic
> 
> 50g oats
> 
> 2 tspoon natty peanut butter
> 
> 1 scoop whey powder
> 
> Carbs - 305
> 
> Fat 123
> 
> Protein 235


Looks a decent diet mate, might give this one a go myself:beer:


----------



## GSleigh

andysutils said:


> Carbs dont mean sh1t apart from being a good energy source far as ive ever been worried about them, I never even thought or counted my carbs ever apart to provide me with sufficiant energy levels during my workouts, i never ever went above 300g of carbs per day and I went from a 119lbs to a 180 in 3-4 years, i just found anything below this carb range fatigued me pretty quickly when it came to workouts and found this was the perfect peak, wether or not that was just in my head playing tricks on me, regardless it worked.
> 
> This is how another guy does it I asked when i was at Tans gym (Keith) - someone might know him who trains there too so he can even clarify this if anyone asks him and hes done it exactly the same way for the past 11 years of his training, hes never never ever took cals into account and hes 200lbs solid.
> 
> I was going to take my diet and do it the typical 400g carbs and 4000+cals per day, but if cals dont build muscle then wtfs the point.
> 
> So my new diet plans going to be this and this is what ill be eating but not particularly in this order.
> 
> Breakfast
> 
> 4 whole eggs
> 
> 50g oats - maybe ill skip the carbs first thing and use fat reserves?
> 
> 1 scoop whey powder
> 
> mid morning
> 
> sardines
> 
> 1 banana
> 
> 1 tspoon olive oil
> 
> Lunch
> 
> 150g chicken breast
> 
> 300g sweat potato
> 
> salad with 2 tspoons olive oil
> 
> pre workout
> 
> 1 tspoon natty peanut butter
> 
> 1 banana
> 
> PWO
> 
> 80g dextrose or potato starch
> 
> 1 scoop whey powder
> 
> 1 tspoon natty peanut butter
> 
> Dinner
> 
> 7 oz steak with salad and 1-2 tspoon olive oil
> 
> evening
> 
> 50g oats
> 
> 1 tspoon natty peanut butter
> 
> bed - Carb fat and protein meal before bed to stay anabolic
> 
> 50g oats
> 
> 2 tspoon natty peanut butter
> 
> 1 scoop whey powder
> 
> Carbs - 305
> 
> Fat 123
> 
> Protein 235
> 
> This is my way of understanding it anyway and this is how I ate in the beginning before i took the high carb and caloric route apart from my breaskfast and bedtime meal was a lot different with different volumes and always got most of all my protein from real food, if the key is to increase protein to stop the plateu (especially strenght) simply just add another shake or 2 and that would easily increase the protein close to or even over 300g per day, if i wanna increase fats, then i can simply add another few tablespoons of peanut butter or olive oil - easy cals and easy fats if your still hellbent on racking up easy calories.
> 
> Maybe if i had followed the caloric and high carb route from the very start of my training, yes I would probably has reached 200lbs, but 200lbs of what.


You a big lad? Any photos, curious on your size and shape from the diet details


----------



## Andy Dee

GSleigh said:


> You a big lad? Any photos, curious on your size and shape from the diet details


lol no mate im pretty far from a big lad, 180lbs is the biggest i ever got to natty but i actually use to eat a fair bit more than that.

Back all the way down to a 142lbs now because ive been ill for the best part of a whole year, only started back at the gym last monday.

Give it a few months and ill get some pics together taken now and in a few months time on this diet.


----------



## 1623R

so a thread that aims to break with dogma

ends up creating just as much new dogma


----------



## Andy Dee

1623R said:


> so a thread that aims to break with dogma
> 
> ends up creating just as much new dogma


Which part dont you get?


----------



## TH0R

Interesting reads God

On the other hand I could probably find a hundred articles on why you SHOULD eat 5-7 meals

per day:confused1:

There is no black and white, its about finding whats right for the individual imo


----------



## Prodiver

Yes- they look familiar. But it's the cited original papers in the British Journal of Nutrition and from Vanderbilt Uni that are persuasive...


----------



## Grim_Reaper

Patrick,

how would you construct a diet like you use and have spoken about for a 3 shift worker weighing around 90k wanting to gain lean muscle and at same time lose body fat I have.

Sometimes I train at 10:00am and for the other 2 weeks at Around 16:00

cheers

kevin.


----------



## Prodiver

Grim_Reaper said:


> Patrick,
> 
> how would you construct a diet like you use and have spoken about for a 3 shift worker weighing around 90k wanting to gain lean muscle and at same time lose body fat I have.
> 
> Sometimes I train at 10:00am and for the other 2 weeks at Around 16:00
> 
> cheers
> 
> kevin.


The same principles apply whatever your daily routine:

Don't eat any carbs for an hour or so when you get up: get going, travel, work, workout, do cardio before your first meal.

Eat three complex meals a day: protein, fats and carbs - it dosen't really matter what - but control - limit - your carb input to only what's necessary for sufficient energy.

Have a protein shake and some fruit (fast carbs) if necessary between meals.

Sometime before your workout eat some protein and a little fast carbs: a shake and some fruit or even a Mars bar for energy, and have a cup of strong coffee to get you buzzing.

As soon as possible after your workout eat some protein and fast carbs again - this could be one of your 3 meals but eat some fast carbs for an insulin spike.

If necessary have a mid-evening shake and some fruit.

Eat a complex meal before bed: a chicken or tuna wholemeal sandwich with mayo, for instance, or a shake with fruit and some olive oil or peanut butter.

Make sure you get enough protein every day, mainly from food, supplemented with shakes: 2 gms/kg bodyweight/day.

Don't worry about eating fats: mayo and salad dressings which are good as they contain olive oil, and butter, cheese and full milk which contain protein.

But watch, control and limit your carbs intake to only just what's necessary. Eat faster carbs - fruit, salads and steamed vegetables - first, and slow carbs like bread, potato, rice and pasta only as necessary. A slice of wholemeal buttered toast is fine with eggs for breakfast, for instance, and a baked potato with dinner, but limit your carbs.

Meat, like steak and ham, and cheese with big salads (salad leaves and shredded red and white raw cabbage, etc.) and dressings are always good.

Eat what you like - even have a nice sweet pudding occasionally, but control those carbs!

Look in the mrror and feel your muscles to know whether to back off the carbs a bit, or increase them of you lack energy.


----------



## Grim_Reaper

Thanks patrick,

Im sure i can figure out a diet from that,

However just a few query's mate.

you say to eat more fast carbs like fruit, veg and salad, is this going to give me the stamina i need in the gym??

Can i eat things like sweetcorn, peas with my veg (as i have been doing) or is this just wrong??.

Should i use slower release carbs like bread,rice etc on training days only or just try to avoid altogether.

How many carbs are there say in an apple or a banana, Are there any types of fruit i should leave well alone.

You also say have a Mars bar, probably take me an hour on X-trainer to burn that back off again is this wise when trying to drop body fat??

Sorry for all the questions mate

cheers

kevin.


----------



## Prodiver

Grim_Reaper said:


> Thanks patrick,
> 
> Im sure i can figure out a diet from that,
> 
> However just a few query's mate.
> 
> you say to eat more fast carbs like fruit, veg and salad, is this going to give me the stamina i need in the gym??
> 
> *If it doesn't, increase their amounts somewhat, and if necessary add some more slow carbs like wholemeal bread or potato to enusure you have enough energy. You'll soon know how you feel day by day.*
> 
> Can i eat things like sweetcorn, peas with my veg (as i have been doing) or is this just wrong??.
> 
> *You only rent sweercorn - it has just about **zero** nutritional value! Peas like beans are good, containing fibre, carbs and some protein.*
> 
> Should i use slower release carbs like bread,rice etc on training days only or just try to avoid altogether.
> 
> *All carbs are carbs. Slow carbs are perfectly good - they just take longer to be metabolized and so are more difficult to control, but you'll soon get the hang of eating mainly fast and some slow carbs. For a refinement, check out TT's advice on eating more on non-training days.*
> 
> How many carbs are there say in an apple or a banana, Are there any types of fruit i should leave well alone.
> 
> *It doesn't matter how many carbs/calories there are in any foods. Eat anything. Just control your carbs so you gradually lose fat or don't put any more on.*
> 
> *
> *
> 
> *
> The only values you need to estimate are the amounts of protein you get in your food, and top your protein levels up with shakes as necessary. Google a food/protein calculator. If you're working out hard and not adding lean mass, you're over-estimating your protein intake, and not getting enough.*
> 
> You also say have a Mars bar, probably take me an hour on X-trainer to burn that back off again is this wise when trying to drop body fat??
> 
> *The Mars bar counts as part of your **total** carb (and fat) intake. You're simply using part of your carb "allowance" before workouts to give you an energy boost. If you don't need one, leave the Mars bar/carbs out, but eat some protein before working out and asap afterwards with some fast carbs for an insulin spike. If you eat Mars bars and the occasional sweet/pudding, you'll need to back off your other carbs accordingly.*
> 
> Sorry for all the questions mate
> 
> cheers
> 
> kevin.


----------



## Grim_Reaper

fats i get from 4 table spoon's of EVO with food throughout the day and maybe a couple of table spoons of natural peanut butter by meridian from H&B.

incidently, how much fats should i consume per day???


----------



## Prodiver

Grim_Reaper said:


> fats i get from 4 table spoon's of EVO with food throughout the day and maybe a couple of table spoons of natural peanut butter by meridian from H&B.
> 
> incidently, how much fats should i consume per day???


It's impossible to say how much fats you actually need, as with carbs.

But if you eat too much fat, you'll continue to get porkier even if you reduce your carbs to zero, which is inadvisable.

Beware adding too many spoonsful of oil and peanut butter if you're getting enough fats in your protein foods, eggs, milk, cheese, butter, mayo and salad dressings (olive oil).


----------



## Grim_Reaper

Ok thanks patrick.


----------



## GSleigh

Prodiver said:


> Eat a complex meal before bed: a chicken or tuna wholemeal sandwich with mayo, for instance, or a shake with fruit and some olive oil or peanut butter..


Why so many carbs and fats before bed?

Would not a simple protien shake mixed with peanut butter be enough? Carbs are surely going to be stored incorrectly eating them this late?


----------



## Prodiver

GSleigh said:


> Why so many carbs and fats before bed?
> 
> Would not a simple protien shake mixed with peanut butter be enough? Carbs are surely going to be stored incorrectly eating them this late?


Well on one of my posts I suggested a shake and peanut butter and maybe some fruit, which I favour, but a sandwich is fine if you're hungry.

Anything you eat before bed is more slowly digested and metabolized than normal and should provide just enough nutrition when you get up so you don't need to eat for an hour or so.

If you're on a limited carb diet the carbs will be metabolized as usual and count as part of your total carb intake.


----------



## GSleigh

Prodiver said:


> Well on one of my posts I suggested a shake and peanut butter and maybe some fruit, which I favour, but a sandwich is fine if you're hungry.
> 
> Anything you eat before bed is more slowly digested and metabolized than normal and should provide just enough nutrition when you get up so you don't need to eat for an hour or so.
> 
> If you're on a limited carb diet the carbs will be metabolized as usual and count as part of your total carb intake.


Ah.... There are a lot of theories out there regarding not eating carbs after 8.00pm as the body knows your going to sleep, doesnt need the energy and stores them as fat no?

Also... I tend to eat as soon as i get up with a pretty hearty 1000 calorie breakfast to get my calorie intake going and energy levels for the day. (all from clean sources) You saying not to do that when bulking? Surely thats the most important part of the day?


----------



## Prodiver

GSleigh said:


> Ah.... There are a lot of theories out there regarding not eating carbs after 8.00pm as the body knows your going to sleep, doesnt need the energy and stores them as fat no?
> 
> Also... I tend to eat as soon as i get up with a pretty hearty 1000 calorie breakfast to get my calorie intake going and energy levels for the day. (all from clean sources) You saying not to do that when bulking? Surely thats the most important part of the day?


It doesn't matter if your bod stores fat - as long as it releases it efficiently and quickly when needed, and this is what a limited carb diet trains it to do.

If you eat before bed, but don't have any carbs for an hour or two after you get up and get going, you'll further train your bod to use its fat reserves and tend to shed fat easier. Have a good breakfast later.

Do this all the time, "bulking" (I don't use the term) or not and you'll stay leaner. It's hard for a few days but you'll soon feel more energetic and less bloated.


----------



## Andy Dee

Thats good to know, because i absoloutly cannot stomach any carbs first thing in the morning, the only thing i can manage on waking is eggs and some pbutter.


----------



## GSleigh

HMmm..... Interesting.... I tend to find i am so god damn hungry when i wake up i crave my food mind. Waiting an hour sounds like pain! LOL


----------



## TH0R

GSleigh said:


> HMmm..... Interesting.... I tend to find i am so god damn hungry when i wake up i crave my food mind. Waiting an hour sounds like pain! LOL


Ditto, I couldn't wait an hour to eat, impossible for me which is why this isn't

working for me

I'm sticking to the fats and protein after 6pm, see how that works


----------



## Andy Dee

GSleigh said:


> HMmm..... Interesting.... I tend to find i am so god damn hungry when i wake up i crave my food mind. Waiting an hour sounds like pain! LOL


same here, i am hungry, its not my appetite thats the problem first thing, its the fact i need to drink about a million litres of water before and after breakfast first thing.


----------



## hilly

If your hungry then you should be eating IMO


----------



## Prodiver

We become accustomed to eating as soon as we get up.

We can become just as accustomed to not eating then, even if we haven't eaten much the night before, and then we tap into our fat stores.

Eating some of our food before bed does help spread the nutrition and stop hunger pangs when we get up.


----------



## GSleigh

I guess every theory has its own merits huh?

I must admit though i dont like the feeling of being hungry, I never let that kick in because i think if i do then i am damaging or stopping the body growing. So i tend to keep constantly fed


----------



## hilly

Pro surely if you wake up and you are generally hungry(taking into account the person knows when their body is actually hungry and not just empty stomach etc) then they should eat????


----------



## Prodiver

hilly said:


> Pro surely if you wake up and you are generally hungry(taking into account the person knows when their body is actually hungry and not just empty stomach etc) then they should eat????


Feeling hungry is largely habit caused by regular meal times.

The body has enormous reserves, so it's unlikely to be starved of essential nutrients by a few hours' wait for food.

The idea is to deprive your body of carbs first thing when it expects them and train it to tap into your fat reserves. Then you will definitrly not starve in any way and will use bodyfat.

IME it works well, though it takes a few days to get used to!


----------



## m14rky

patrick i find i can get by on very little carbs 30g oats in the morning and 30g in my shake after gym at 12 ish and not lack energy as my job involves sitting on my bum most of the day is eating that little carbs going to have a negative effect on me in cutting a bit of fat.i only seem to feel hungry from 7pm onwards


----------



## Nutz01

Informative post mate


----------



## Prodiver

m14rky said:


> patrick i find i can get by on very little carbs 30g oats in the morning and 30g in my shake after gym at 12 ish and not lack energy as my job involves sitting on my bum most of the day is eating that little carbs going to have a negative effect on me in cutting a bit of fat.i only seem to feel hungry from 7pm onwards


Well I'd simply bet that you'd get leaner if you trained yourself to wait an hour or so after you get up before eating any carbs.


----------



## m14rky

Prodiver said:


> Well I'd simply bet that you'd get leaner if you trained yourself to wait an hour or so after you get up before eating any carbs.


heres hoping mate since reading ur post i have started waiting an hour before eating i do 30 mins cardio pre brekky im thinking about doing interval sprints on the bike instead of steady state


----------



## Prodiver

m14rky said:


> heres hoping mate since reading ur post i have started waiting an hour before eating i do 30 mins cardio pre brekky im thinking about doing interval sprints on the bike instead of steady state


Let us know how you get on!


----------



## frowningbudda

Really good points raised here.

Alot of the stuff I adhere to - eating when hungry etc

A few thousand years of evolution cant be (that) wrong


----------



## gerardflanagan

No, it can't be wrong for the purpose of surviving. Evolution has never been geared towards bodybuilding though. For example, if you stuff your face with carbs that you don't use every day then you'll get fat. From an evolution point of view this is great, your body's storing fat because cavemen didn't know when they'd get their next meal. From a bodybuilding POV, that's a disaster though.


----------



## frowningbudda

Ok I stand corrected


----------



## Prodiver

gerardflanagan said:


> No, it can't be wrong for the purpose of surviving. Evolution has never been geared towards bodybuilding though. For example, if you stuff your face with carbs that you don't use every day then you'll get fat. From an evolution point of view this is great, your body's storing fat because cavemen didn't know when they'd get their next meal. From a bodybuilding POV, that's a disaster though.


I'm sure this is right, but TT, I think, and quite a few other bodybuilders are now finding that they can easily take in sufficient protein and fats for growth and just enough carbs eating only when they're hungry - which may be quite often - and make excellent gains.

This doesn't fit in well with many guys' daily work, so eating 3 good meals a day with shakes etc. between is more convenient and works very well.


----------



## Wiggy

Prodiver said:


> Many on UK-M seem to be obsessed with gaining weight!
> 
> I'm sure what they really want is to gain maximum lean muscle mass as soon as possible.
> 
> While of course you need to eat sufficient food to grow, it's a mistake - and a waste of time and money - to bulk up only to have to shed fat!
> 
> It's perfectly possible to gain lean muscle mass and lose fat at the same time.
> 
> *Don't listen to all the stuff about how many calories you must eat.* Sure you need to eat plenty, but the actual numbers are irrelevant because your daily life, workout intensity and even the ambient temperature, etc. vary significantly: you cannot know how many calories you will need in advance, and you cannot accurately calculate your calorie intake and utilization anyway!
> 
> Approach your bodybuilding diet in a different, simple, pragmatic way:
> 
> Eat sufficient protein to grow: 2 gms per kg actual bodyweight per day will give you a good margin. (47% of unused protein is turned to carbs.) Eat loads of meat, whole eggs, fish, cheese, milk, and top up with shakes.
> 
> Then don't worry about eating good fats. Some will be in your protein foods, but also eat real butter, salad dressings and mayo, peanut butter. Good fats are essential for vitamin and gear utilization.
> 
> Then eat only just enough carbs for energy to power your daily life and intense workouts, and no more. This will train your bod to use its fat stores first and most efficiently. It's your carb intake that determines your fat storage.
> 
> Get your carbs mostly from salads, vegetables and fruit, and then from potatoes, rice, wholemeal bread and pasta. The quicker carbs will provide energy when you need it but be metabolized fast and direct your bod back to its fat reserves.
> 
> Before working out eat protein and a little carbs for energy, and the same after working out for the insulin spike to drive the nutrients into your system. The carbs can be anything fast like fruit or a mars bar. The after-workout protein and carbs can be a main meal.
> 
> You do not need to eat little and often, as a paper cited on UK-M a while back showed. 3 main meals a day will work fine, You can have your top-up shakes, and a little carbs, such as fruit, as necessary, between meals.
> 
> Eat a protein, fat and carbs meal before bed, like a tuna or chicken wholemeal sandwich or a shake and some fruit, to stay anabolic. *Then don't eat breakfast when you get up, but a couple of hours later when you've done some travelling, work or cardio and your bod has tapped its fat reserves.*
> 
> If you lack power and are generally tired, especially on work-out days, up your carbs a little until you have ample energy; if you are not losing flab or are getting porkier, back the carbs off. Once you get the balance right it only takes a day or so to see the difference in the mirror.
> 
> You'll quickly "know" how much carbs to eat and can vary how much and what to eat meal by meal.
> 
> Using this approach you have to calculate nothing except your rising protein intake as you gain lean mass, but you will be able to lose flab at the same time and yet can eat almost anything.
> 
> Please note this is not a finely-gauged contest prep diet! For that, consult an expert.


Pretty much the info i have bee looking for what i have put in *bold*, Going to give this a try mate thanks alot..

e.g

Wake up 30/45-MIN Cardio *Bike* 30-MIN later Some oats, with red milk. 30 to 45-MIN later train. Just wondering does this look ok too you mate.


----------



## Nutz01

Wiggy_ said:


> Pretty much the info i have bee looking for what i have put in *bold*, Going to give this a try mate thanks alot..
> 
> e.g
> 
> Wake up 30/45-MIN Cardio *Bike* 30-MIN later Some oats, with red milk. 30 to 45-MIN later train. Just wondering does this look ok too you mate.


Thats what im trying,

Wake up, get ready for work, travel to work (brisk walk for about 35-40 mins), then breakfast at work "oats", several small meals throughout the day, most of my carbs in before 1pm then the rest of my meals protein biased. Gym about 7pm, last meal before bed "whole earth organic peanut butter on 1 slice of multigrain bread & protein shake"

Had a bit of an unclean week last week but this week ill be keeping it clean ill document all what i eat this week and keep a check on weight, BF and post back how it goes


----------



## Wiggy

How long you been trying that mate, Long enough too see any changes or just started?


----------



## Nutz01

Wiggy_ said:


> How long you been trying that mate, Long enough too see any changes or just started?


I was actualy trying last week but situation left me having to eat a little unclean but this week will be clean


----------



## Wiggy

Oh ok mate, good luck with it. Start tomorrow myself 

*BACK 2 TOPIC* sorry.


----------



## Ironball

I have lost a bit of weight recently and I have mostly focused on dropping carbs. I have found that I have more energy and am hardly tired during the day anymore. I think I was eating too many carbs. Also, i have found that I fart a lot less and to be blunt, my dumps no longer stink like my organs are decaying inside me. I am deffo going to bring carbs down and increase fats when I start training again.

Does anybody know about the Anabolic diet? I think it sounds similar to what people seem to refer as the keto diet on here.

basically it seems carbs are very limited whilst fats and protein are higher. Does anybody have experience of this working for adding muscle though? Or is it mainly used for losing weight?

Also wondered what people think about staggering claories? Like 3500 fr a few days and then 2750 for a couple of days and then back to 3500. Does this help to minimize bodyfat?


----------



## Gza1

I'm facinated with this thread read it everytime I log on, as it makes total sence but totally contradicts everything I've ever known, I'm still having trouble getting my head round it, unsure wether it's me being dumb or just ignorant lol. Pro in the three meals do you have protein carbs and fats? also u say to eat carbs for energy, do carbs have nothing to do with building muscle tissue? The funny thing is I know by eating alot of carbs won't make me gain muscle faster but I feel I won't be able to train hard enough to get stronger and in turn develop new muscle


----------



## Prodiver

Gza1 said:


> I'm facinated with this thread read it everytime I log on, as it makes total sence but totally contradicts everything I've ever known, I'm still having trouble getting my head round it, unsure wether it's me being dumb or just ignorant lol. Pro in the three meals do you have protein carbs and fats?
> 
> *Yes*
> 
> also u say to eat carbs for energy, do carbs have nothing to do with building muscle tissue?
> 
> *Carbs do not directly provide muscle tissue-building nutrients. Carbs give you energy to live and work out so you can over-stress muscles, which makes them grow.*
> 
> The funny thing is I know by eating alot of carbs won't make me gain muscle faster but I feel I won't be able to train hard enough to get stronger and in turn develop new muscle.
> 
> *Your body needs sufficient energy to live and work out. This comes normally from carbs and fats. If your body is used to getting ample carbs regularly it will store any surplus calories as fat and will not mobilize your fat efficently for energy.*
> 
> *
> *
> 
> *
> If you accustom your body to get only just enough carbs for its needs, it will either store very little or no bodyfat and use what fat you have efficiently as necessary. So you can maintain or reduce your bodyfat gradually while having enough energy to work out hard, and providing you eat enough protein and fats you will put on muscle.*


----------



## mmts5

Hi Pro, great thread mate, just about read the whole thing!

Just wondered how this diet would follow for natural bb'er?

Would you make any changes, or would it be largely the same?

Also, I think you hinted at this before, but i get paranoid about losing muscle for energy if i'm feeling really hungry e.g cardio on empty stomach first thing, is this totally wrong? Does the body always burn fat first?

Thanks mate


----------



## Prodiver

mmts5 said:


> Hi Pro, great thread mate, just about read the whole thing!
> 
> Just wondered how this diet would follow for natural bb'er?
> 
> Would you make any changes, or would it be largely the same?
> 
> Also, I think you hinted at this before, but i get paranoid about losing muscle for energy if i'm feeling really hungry e.g cardio on empty stomach first thing, is this totally wrong? Does the body always burn fat first?
> 
> Thanks mate


Guys on gear can recover quicker and have slightly higher protein uptake and energy expenditure, but except for huge pro bodybuilders they're apparently not massively greater, as the body can only put on so much muscle per year.

Stick to the same protein rate - 2 gms/kg bodyweight/day. Any surplus will be metaboiized and taken into account in your ongoing carb adjustment.

The body will always consume carbs first, then fat and lastly muscle. You'd have to eat no carbs and have extremely low bodyfat before you'd lose muscle - providing your eat enough protein.


----------



## Nutz01

Prodiver said:


> Guys on gear can recover quicker and have slightly higher protein uptake and energy expenditure, but except for huge pro bodybuilders they're apparently not massively greater, as the body can only put on so much muscle per year.
> 
> Stick to the same protein rate - 2 gms/kg bodyweight/day. Any surplus will be metaboiized and taken into account in your ongoing carb adjustment.
> 
> The body will always consume carbs first, then fat and lastly muscle. You'd have to eat no carbs and have extremely low bodyfat before you'd lose muscle - providing your eat enough protein.


Thats realy good advice mate,

Puts my mind at ease, as i'm trying to reduce my b/f and have been worred about loosing my gains. :rockon:


----------



## mmts5

That's really helpful, thanks a lot pro!

I'll now be more conscious of not eating protein in excess and i can work on getting down to a lower body fat %!

Theo


----------



## kawikid

Prodiver said:


> Eat sufficient protein to grow: 2 gms per kg actual bodyweight per day will give you a good margin. (47% of unused protein is turned to carbs.)
> 
> Then don't worry about eating good fats. Some will be in your protein foods, but also eat real butter, salad dressings and mayo, peanut butter. Good fats are essential for vitamin and gear utilization.
> 
> Then eat only just enough carbs for energy to power your daily life and intense workouts, and no more. This will train your bod to use its fat stores first and most efficiently. It's your carb intake that determines your fat storage.
> 
> .





Prodiver said:


> .
> 
> Stick to the same protein rate - 2 gms/kg bodyweight/day. Any surplus will be metaboiized and taken into account in your ongoing carb adjustment.
> 
> The body will always consume carbs first, then fat and lastly muscle. You'd have to eat no carbs and have extremely low bodyfat before you'd lose muscle - providing your eat enough protein.


Pro. I've read through this thread and adapted a few things and i've noticed some results. Thanks. I'd started something close to your methods a few weeks before you posted this thread.

There are some things i'm still pondering over and i was hoping you can clear them up. 

For humans- seeing is believing. What your posting is quite different to the way alot of guys do things. These guys do things differently and have fantastic results to show for it. Do you have pics of yourself to prove it works, or.... you said you have tried this on guys and helped them. Do you have pics of their transformation?

I fully 100% agree with your method on consume enough carbs to get you through your day and workout. I changed my diet and dropped my carbs a bit and the carbs i do eat now, the majority is from fruit and veg. This has made a difference. I'm less bloated, leaner and overall feel great. Much perkier and better overall feeling of wellbeing. The hard bit is...... it take a while of trial and error to find that sweet spot.

The protein part. I know there will be some research somewhere that sugggests too much protein will convert to carbs. This is the 1st time i've heard this though. But by your 2gm per kg body weight, at 80kg i should be on 160g protein per day. This seems pretty low to me. My fiance has a PHD in neuroscience so i've been around academics for years, so i understand you cant prove anything in research, you can ony suggest something. And sure as hell someone else will bring out a thesis suggesting otherwise.  So what i'm saying is, all the papers in the world dont cut it. Real life, take a man, do the methods, show me the results, thats what works for a simple guy like me.

I'm not sure about the fats part. Your telling guys to get fats from butter etc. Surely good fats with 3,6,9's in them would be far more beneficial. Like get the fats from mackeral, almonds, udos oil etc?? These would surely enhance fat stripping and be far more beneficial to the body.

Lastly the eating timings. You say eat when hungry. I tried this...... had breakfast at 8, then the next time i was hungry was 3pm!!! Had a meal, then was peckish before bed so had a shake. Thats only 2 meals and a shake. Some guys like myself have a poor appetite, so this method wouldn't work to well.

Overall i changed my carb sources from mostly rice/potatoes to mostly fruit/veg. I upped my fats a bit by adding udos to shakes and eating more mackrel/salmon and snaking on almonds, and kept protein at 270-300. This has made a big difference. I've lost alot of fat and i still hit pb's (E.G...managing now to flat db press the 50kg bells for 6 +2 with a spotter, where as before i was struggling on 4 reps with the 47.5's) and actually have more energy. I'll fire up some pics to show you the difference.

My writing tone on the net might come across wrong, i'm not calling you out or being a dick. :beer: You have indeed helped me.

Not the best pics, but you can see the difference in the serrators, obliques, lower abs. I'm alot more vasculor when working out now too. I find i hard to get good shots. :confused1:

Before......



1 month later.....



**Edit***. 1st pic was taken in a poorly lit room, 2nd was in direct sunlight hence i have a slight tan in 1st one and look like casper in the 2nd. :thumbup1:


----------



## hilly

kawikid if you didnt were not hungry after 1 meal for 7 hours then xsomething is wrong with either your training/diet or metabolism or all 3. if you are traini8nging ure ass off and eating the right foods then you will be hungry all the time.

Hunger is a good sign that your body is working right,.


----------



## kawikid

hilly said:


> kawikid if you didnt were not hungry after 1 meal for 7 hours then xsomething is wrong with either your training/diet or metabolism or all 3. if you are traini8nging ure ass off and eating the right foods then you will be hungry all the time.
> 
> Hunger is a good sign that your body is working right,.


I have quite a stressfull job at times so the time flies by. In that time i'd drunk 2l of water so that might be what filled me up and stopped the hunger??? I was on that one call for over 5hrs and under pressure, so eating wasn't on my mind. Usually in those situations i'd nip for tools at set times and have a quick meal then to make sure i eat.


----------



## hilly

stress can cause alsorts of issues mate and this can effect hunger. PLus a job like that can make it difficult also.

Eating by hunger is a good approach if you are able to eat at any/most times of the day. Im quite lucky as at uni now so can eat every hour if need be.

This is why a set meal schedule works better for most. when i worked as a dry liner i had 6 set meals and made sure i got them in.


----------



## Prodiver

kawikid said:


> Pro. I've read through this thread and adapted a few things and i've noticed some results. Thanks. I'd started something close to your methods a few weeks before you posted this thread.
> 
> There are some things i'm still pondering over and i was hoping you can clear them up.
> 
> For humans- seeing is believing. What your posting is quite different to the way alot of guys do things. These guys do things differently and have fantastic results to show for it. Do you have pics of yourself to prove it works, or.... you said you have tried this on guys and helped them. Do you have pics of their transformation?
> 
> *I currently have few pics of myself, and no "before" ones, I'm afraid. Actually I'm the best and worst example of this dietary approach as I only have one leg and find keeping the flab off very difficult, but essentially I know it works because I manage to stay reasonably trim without any conventional cardio.*
> 
> *
> *
> 
> *
> I think you'll find that TT and James Ll now use something close to this approach with their successful trainees, and if you ask around on UK-M I think you'll find Brabus and others might provide pics.*
> 
> *
> *
> 
> *
> Seeing is indeed believing - which is why looking in the mirror and feeling your own muscles is such a good guide.*
> 
> *
> *
> 
> *
> I suspect that quite a number of successful bodybuilders' diets are in fact quite similar to that achieved at by this approach, though their methods of arriving at an effective diet differ. Many are coming to doubt the wisdom of bulking and cutting.*
> 
> I fully 100% agree with your method on consume enough carbs to get you through your day and workout. I changed my diet and dropped my carbs a bit and the carbs i do eat now, the majority is from fruit and veg. This has made a difference. I'm less bloated, leaner and overall feel great. Much perkier and better overall feeling of wellbeing. The hard bit is...... it take a while of trial and error to find that sweet spot.
> 
> *Yes! *
> 
> The protein part. I know there will be some research somewhere that sugggests too much protein will convert to carbs. This is the 1st time i've heard this though. But by your 2gm per kg body weight, at 80kg i should be on 160g protein per day. This seems pretty low to me. My fiance has a PHD in neuroscience so i've been around academics for years, so i understand you cant prove anything in research, you can ony suggest something. And sure as hell someone else will bring out a thesis suggesting otherwise.  So what i'm saying is, all the papers in the world dont cut it. Real life, take a man, do the methods, show me the results, thats what works for a simple guy like me.
> 
> *The conversion of excess protein into carbs and fat is a generally accepted pathway of metabolism as currently understood.*
> 
> *
> *
> 
> *
> A simple survey by RS2007 on here suggested that something like 1.8 gms protein per kg lean body mass per day are essential to maintain muscle mass. Various governement nutritional authorities offer considerably lower figures for daily protein requirements. So 2 gms/kg actual bodyweight/day seem reasonable for **growth**, though we may need or be able to metabolize more. Unfortunately we have no reliable way at present to determine how much excess protein we eat. But since it is ultimately converted to carbs, it can be taken into account in our carb limiting.*
> 
> I'm not sure about the fats part. Your telling guys to get fats from butter etc. Surely good fats with 3,6,9's in them would be far more beneficial. Like get the fats from mackeral, almonds, udos oil etc?? These would surely enhance fat stripping and be far more beneficial to the body.
> 
> *I'm sure all those you suggest are good. TT advocates daily doses of olive oil. I get mine in salad dressings and mayo. But let me quote from a convincing recent article (fully referenced) in a big mainstream US bodybuilding mag: *
> 
> *
> *
> 
> *
> "Fat is a dietary necessity, but it has suffered from too great a generality. Dietary fat is not pre-destined to become body fat; it is an excellent source of energy and certain fatty acids act as precursors to messenger signals. Fish oils may act to reduce inflammation, but... this is not necessarily a positive. Only recently has the role of muscle cell inflammation in hypertrophy been appreciated.*
> 
> *
> *
> 
> *
> "A diet high in fish or fish oil may blunt the hypertrophic effect of exercise, making it more difficult to attain or maintain muscle size.*
> 
> *
> *
> 
> *
> "Animal fat is high in saturated fat and is an excellent source of arachidonic acid, which is a fatty acid that can be converted into pro-growth chemical messengers called prostaglandins. However, the arachidonic acid signal is suppressed with the use of non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs (NSAIDs) and fish oils.*
> 
> *
> *
> 
> *
> "Assuming that a chemically enhanced bodybuilder is promoting the **chemical** release and burning of stored fat, he can consume a maintenance number of calories or greater, promoting lean mass accumulation. As the anabolic 'signal' is created to an exaggerated degree by the drugs, there is more of a margin to allow for fish oils and NSAIDs if necessary."*
> 
> Lastly the eating timings. You say eat when hungry. I tried this...... had breakfast at 8, then the next time i was hungry was 3pm!!! Had a meal, then was peckish before bed so had a shake. Thats only 2 meals and a shake. Some guys like myself have a poor appetite, so this method wouldn't work to well.
> 
> *Actually, I didn't advocate eating only when hungry, though others do with apparent success. If you eat few meals it can be a problem necking enough of the right constituents. For most bodybuilders 3 main complex meals fit well into their daily schedules.*
> 
> Overall i changed my carb sources from mostly rice/potatoes to mostly fruit/veg. I upped my fats a bit by adding udos to shakes and eating more mackrel/salmon and snaking on almonds, and kept protein at 270-300. This has made a big difference. I've lost alot of fat and i still hit pb's (E.G...managing now to flat db press the 50kg bells for 6 +2 with a spotter, where as before i was struggling on 4 reps with the 47.5's) and actually have more energy. I'll fire up some pics to show you the difference.
> 
> My writing tone on the net might come across wrong, i'm not calling you out or being a dick. :beer: You have indeed helped me.
> 
> *Thanks! And your own pics certainly show that this approach works!* :thumb:
> 
> Not the best pics, but you can see the difference in the serrators, obliques, lower abs. I'm alot more vasculor when working out now too. I find i hard to get good shots. :confused1:
> 
> Before......
> 
> View attachment 33134
> 
> 
> 1 month later.....
> 
> View attachment 33135
> 
> 
> **Edit***. 1st pic was taken in a poorly lit room, 2nd was in direct sunlight hence i have a slight tan in 1st one and look like casper in the 2nd. :thumbup1:


----------



## kawikid

Prodiver said:


> .*I currently have few pics of myself, and no "before" ones, I'm afraid. Actually I'm the best and worst example of this dietary approach as I only have one leg and find keeping the flab off very difficult, but essentially I know it works because I manage to stay reasonably trim without any conventional cardio.*
> 
> *
> *
> 
> *
> I think you'll find that TT and James Ll now use something close to this approach with their successful trainees, and if you ask around on UK-M I think you'll find Brabus and others might provide pics.*
> 
> *
> *
> 
> *
> Seeing is indeed believing - which is why looking in the mirror and feeling your own muscles is such a good guide.*
> 
> *
> *
> 
> *
> I suspect that quite a number of successful bodybuilders' diets are in fact quite similar to that achieved at by this approach, though their methods of arriving at an effective diet differ. Many are coming to doubt the wisdom of bulking and cutting.*
> 
> *
> *
> 
> *
> *
> 
> The protein part. I know there will be some research somewhere that sugggests too much protein will convert to carbs. This is the 1st time i've heard this though. But by your 2gm per kg body weight, at 80kg i should be on 160g protein per day. This seems pretty low to me. My fiance has a PHD in neuroscience so i've been around academics for years, so i understand you cant prove anything in research, you can ony suggest something. And sure as hell someone else will bring out a thesis suggesting otherwise.  So what i'm saying is, all the papers in the world dont cut it. Real life, take a man, do the methods, show me the results, thats what works for a simple guy like me.
> 
> *The conversion of excess protein into carbs and fat is a generally accepted pathway of metabolism as currently understood.*
> 
> *
> *
> 
> *
> A simple survey by RS2007 on here suggested that something like 1.8 gms protein per kg lean body mass per day are essential to maintain muscle mass. Various governement nutritional authorities offer considerably lower figures for daily protein requirements. So 2 gms/kg actual bodyweight/day seem reasonable for **growth**, though we may need or be able to metabolize more. Unfortunately we have no reliable way at present to determine how much excess protein we eat. But since it is ultimately converted to carbs, it can be taken into account in our carb limiting.*
> 
> I'm not sure about the fats part. Your telling guys to get fats from butter etc. Surely good fats with 3,6,9's in them would be far more beneficial. Like get the fats from mackeral, almonds, udos oil etc?? These would surely enhance fat stripping and be far more beneficial to the body.
> 
> *I'm sure all those you suggest are good. TT advocates daily doses of olive oil. I get mine in salad dressings and mayo. But let me quote from a convincing recent article (fully referenced) in a big mainstream US bodybuilding mag: *
> 
> *
> *
> 
> *
> "Fat is a dietary necessity, but it has suffered from too great a generality. Dietary fat is not pre-destined to become body fat; it is an excellent source of energy and certain fatty acids act as precursors to messenger signals. Fish oils may act to reduce inflammation, but... this is not necessarily a positive. Only recently has the role of muscle cell inflammation in hypertrophy been appreciated.*
> 
> *
> *
> 
> *
> "A diet high in fish or fish oil may blunt the hypertrophic effect of exercise, making it more difficult to attain or maintain muscle size.*
> 
> *
> *
> 
> *
> "Animal fat is high in saturated fat and is an excellent source of arachidonic acid, which is a fatty acid that can be converted into pro-growth chemical messengers called prostaglandins. However, the arachidonic acid signal is suppressed with the use of non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs (NSAIDs) and fish oils.*
> 
> *
> *
> 
> *
> "Assuming that a chemically enhanced bodybuilder is promoting the **chemical** release and burning of stored fat, he can consume a maintenance number of calories or greater, promoting lean mass accumulation. As the anabolic 'signal' is created to an exaggerated degree by the drugs, there is more of a margin to allow for fish oils and NSAIDs if necessary."*


Thanks for the reply. I posted a thread over a year and a half ago just after i joined the forum questioning the cut/bulk method. It's just never sat comfortable with me. I've waited this long for someone to fully agree with me. For a bodybuilder it is prob the way forward, but for joe average who wants to look good year round and build some lean tissue i always did think there was an easier way.

http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/food-diet-nutrition-info/32600-cut-bulk-necessary.html

There is only 2-3lbs difference in weight between those two pictures. they're not a good comparison, but to see in the flesh it is a visible difference. So i agree.... dont go by the scales..... go by the mirror and the feel.

I stopped all the Fitday stuff and calculating calories everyday and working out macros. I did a few trials for a week to make sure i was hitting the protein requirements, then just felt it out from there. Regarding the fats, i eat eggs, steak etc so will get the saturated fats from them i assume.

Lunch for example is now....

6 whole scrambled eggs, large handfull mixed salad with olive oil and a touch balsamic vinegar for taste. 50g almonds, 1 apple and a banana to finish.

Previously it was.....

4 whole eggs with cottage cheese on a toasted bagel + 1 slice granary toast with natty peanut butter.

With your way it seems it will be easier for guys to fit it into their lifestyle and be consistent, and IMO slow consistent gains are the ones that are easiest to keep.

I do use AAS, but in low doses. Some will say it is the wrong way, but the way i view it is i want to have diet and training as good as i can get it, then the AAS is just used as the icing on the cake. Just enough to get results and no more. EG i only use 400mg p/w of test, only tried upping to to 500mg this week. Short cycles, 8 weeks max. Only on my 2nd now. This could be enabling the higher protein synthesis and allowing me to eat more protein without the convertion to carbs????? maybe:confused1:???

Thanks again. :thumb:


----------



## Scrappy

Hay pro great thread, so going on this theory then,

if u had some one clean bulking with 300g carb, 200+ protein,

and some one with a lower carb diet say 150 carbs, 180-200g protein,

your saying that both diets would achieve the same amount in lean muscle, but if the latter was used would have lower body fat? I carb cycled a while ago and found 150g carbs made me lean out, this was my low day, also can't say I sufferd in the gym really either, knowing this do you think that would be a good principle to start with if I was goin to follow a similar theory to what you have mentiond?


----------



## Prodiver

Scrappy said:


> Hay pro great thread, so going on this theory then,
> 
> if u had some one clean bulking with 300g carb, 200+ protein,
> 
> and some one with a lower carb diet say 150 carbs, 180-200g protein,
> 
> your saying that *both diets would achieve the same amount in lean muscle, but if the latter was used would have lower body fat*? I carb cycled a while ago and found 150g carbs made me lean out, this was my low day, also can't say I sufferd in the gym really either, knowing this do you think that would be a good principle to start with if I was goin to follow a similar theory to what you have mentiond?


Yes, all other things being equal. But forget amounts of carbs and numbers of calories.

Make sure you eat enough protein and fat, and determine your carb reqiurements over a week or so by how you feel and whether you put on body fat.


----------



## Prodiver

kawikid said:


> ...
> 
> I do use AAS, but in low doses. Some will say it is the wrong way, but the way i view it is i want to have diet and training as good as i can get it, then the AAS is just used as the icing on the cake. Just enough to get results and no more. EG i only use 400mg p/w of test, only tried upping to to 500mg this week. Short cycles, 8 weeks max. Only on my 2nd now. T*his could be enabling the higher protein synthesis and allowing me to eat more protein without the convertion to carbs????? maybe:*confused1:???...


Without doubt! :thumb:


----------



## anabolic ant

very interesting thread indeed!!!


----------



## Prodiver

Greekgoddess said:


> This is working very well for me. I have posted some photos on the TT thread if anyone wants to have a look at them. If I post them on here I will be accused of posting them for attention seeking. Once is enough lol
> 
> I try to work out my days intake so I am certain I get enough protein, then the good oils, and then I add salad, fruit etc....after that I consider how many complex carbs I NEED to get me through the day, and the answer is usually not that many.
> 
> Once I have enough protein, good oils and a few simple carbs I seem to have enough energy to get me through any workout.
> 
> I agree with you totally on the butter and occasional saturated fat, but then I have low cholesterol levels to start with. I also get some of my fats from steak and lamb, and organ meats like liver and kidney.


Sorry I didn't respond earlier, GG!

Good to hear some practical proof that this approach works. :thumb:


----------



## Andrikos

This article has some points that I agree with , and are proven in the literature.

For example meal frequency may not be that important

1: Br J Nutr. 1997 Apr;77 Suppl 1:S57-70.

* Meal frequency and energy balance.*

Bellisle F, McDevitt R, Prentice AM.

INSERM U341, Hotel Dieu de Paris, France.

Several epidemiological studies have observed an inverse relationship between people's habitual frequency of eating and body weight, leading to the suggestion that a 'nibbling' meal pattern may help in the avoidance of obesity. A review of all pertinent studies shows that, although many fail to find any significant relationship, the relationship is consistently inverse in those that do observe a relationship. However, this finding is highly vulnerable to the probable confounding effects of post hoc changes in dietary patterns as a consequence of weight gain and to dietary under-reporting which undoubtedly invalidates some of the studies. *We conclude that the epidemiological evidence is at best very weak, and almost certainly represents an artefact.* A detailed review of the possible mechanistic explanations for a metabolic advantage of nibbling meal patterns failed to reveal significant benefits in respect of energy expenditure. Although some short-term studies suggest that the thermic effect of feeding is higher when an isoenergetic test load is divided into multiple small meals, other studies refute this, and most are neutral. *More importantly, studies using whole-body calorimetry and doubly-labelled water to assess total 24 h energy expenditure find no difference between nibbling and gorging.* Finally, with the exception of a single study, *there is no evidence that weight loss on hypoenergetic regimens is altered by meal frequency.* We conclude that any effects of meal pattern on the regulation of body weight *are likely to be mediated through effects on the food intake side of the energy balance equation.*

1: Br J Nutr. 2008 Oct;100(4):810-9. Epub 2008 Apr 8.

The effect of feeding frequency on insulin and ghrelin responses in human subjects.

Solomon TP, Chambers ES, Jeukendrup AE, Toogood AA, Blannin AK.

School of Sport and Exercise Sciences, University of Birmingham, West Midlands, UK.

Recent work shows that increased meal frequency reduces ghrelin responses in sheep. Human research suggests there is an interaction between insulin and ghrelin. The effect of meal frequency on this interaction is unknown. Therefore, we investigated the effect of feeding frequency on insulin and ghrelin responses in human subjects. Five healthy male volunteers were recruited from the general population: age 24 (SEM 2)years, body mass 75.7 (SEM 3.2) kg and BMI 23.8 (SEM 0.8) kg/m(2). Volunteers underwent three 8-h feeding regimens: fasting (FAST); low-frequency(two) meal ingestion (LOFREQ(MEAL)); high-frequency (twelve) meal ingestion (HIFREQ(MEAL)). Meals were equi-energetic within trials,consisting of 64% carbohydrate, 23% fat and 13% protein. Total energy intake was equal between feeding trials. Total area under the curve for serum insulin and plasma ghrelin responses did not differ between trials (P>0.05), although the hormonal response patterns to the two meal feeding regimens were different. An inverse relationship was found between serum insulin and plasma ghrelin during the FAST andLOFREQ(MEAL) trials (P<0.05); and, in the postprandial period, there was a time delay between insulin responses and successive ghrelin responses.This relationship was not observed during the HIFREQ(MEAL) trial (P>0.05). This study provides further evidence that the postprandial fall in ghrelin might be due, at least partially, to the rise in insulin and that high-frequency feeding may disrupt this relationship.

THE EFFECT OF MEAL FREQUENCY ON BODY COMPOSITION DURING 12-WEEKS OF STRENGTH TRAINING

Hansen #216;yvind1, Fostervold Mathisen Therese2, Raastad

Truls 2

(Institute of Basic Medical Sciences, University of Oslo1,

Norwegian School of Sport Sciences2, Norway)

Human trials on the effect of meal frequency on body composition are scarce. Short-term studies show increased rate of protein synthesis immediately after intake of amino acids [1], and frequent meals are shown to aid in the preservation of lean body mass when dieting [2]. Consequently it could be hypothesised that in response to strength training, more frequent meals will give larger muscle mass accumulation and lower fat mass (FM) than fewer meals. The purpose of this study was to compare the effects of 3 vs. 6meals per day on changes in body composition in young men and women performing strength training over 12 weeks. Men (n=33) and women (n=15) aged 21 to 35 with at least one year of previous strength training experience were randomly assigned to either a 6 meals a day group or a 3 meals a day group. The prescribed total dietary intake in both groups was equal and calculated to give a positive energy balance of approximately 1200 KJ/day, a protein intake of 1.5-1.7 g/kg/day and a carbohydrate intake of 5-7 g/kg/day. During the training period the dietary intake was controlled by repeated 24-hours recalls. All participants performed the same strength training program, training four times per week, giving each muscle group one heavy session and one light session per week. In the heavy sessions, training intensity varied between 10 and 3 RM sets, and 3-6 sets were performed in each exercise. Determination of body composition was performed with DEXA at the beginning of and immediately after the training period. A total of 16 men and 11 women completed the project. After multiple regression analysis the 3 meal group had a significant greater gain in lean body mass (LBM) than the 6 meal group when adjusted for gender and energy intake (p=0.04), when adjusted for gender and protein intake (p=0.03), and when adjusted for gender, protein intake, carbohydrate intake and fat intake* (p=0.01). (*: Fat intake in g/kg body weight/day showed significance on LBM, p=0.03). No significant differences in regional changes in LBM were observed, although there was a tendency towards a greater gain in the three meal group. There were no significant differences in change in fat mass (FM) between the groups, but a tendency towards a greater gain in the three meal group, 7.33% (-5.23, 19.90), p=0.24. The three meal group had a 2.87%(0.62, 5.12) larger weight gain than the six meal group, p=0.01.The participants had a 2.31% (0.83, 3.79), gain in bone mineral density of the spine during the twelve weeks of strength training, p<0.01, but there were no differences between the groups. In this study,* three meals per day resulted in larger muscle gain from strength training than six meals per day over a period of twelve weeks. The reason why 3 meals a day was superior to 6 meals a day in this study needs further investigation. More long-term studies are needed to determine the optimal meal frequency for gain in LBM from strength training."*

And also here

http://www.musculardevelopment.com/content/view/1600/51/

Yes gaining muscle while losing fat is achievable , without the use of ergogenics.

*And there are points that I stonglyy disagree like with *having mayo , real butter(!!!!) , salad dressings and not having breakfast.Atherosclerosis here I come , that sounds like an unhealthy lifestyle and a lot of calories

Eating good fats is very important for overall health and bodybuilding.Olive oil is a must for that matter and far superior than any of these sources.

To equalise a fruit with a mars bar is not fair , a mars bar now and then is OK but ...

And I am not sure how can someone know how many carbs he should be taking , I know lots of people who have failed on that 

Frequent meals are not necessary to build muscle but could help people that cannot control their apettite or have fluctuating blood glucose levels

This article does raise some interesting points but it gets maybe too simplistic and easy to digest?

Prodiver don't take my post the wrong way , I ve seen other posts of you and have much respect for you.Cheers.

Andreas


----------



## GSleigh

Prodiver said:


> Yes, all other things being equal. But forget amounts of carbs and numbers of calories.
> 
> Make sure you eat enough protein and fat, and determine your carb reqiurements over a week or so by how you feel and whether you put on body fat.


I read so much that Protien just repairs muscle and carbs help it to grow.... So how does this theory weigh up with what you are saying?


----------



## pastanchicken

GSleigh said:


> I read so much that Protien just repairs muscle and carbs help it to grow.... So how does this theory weigh up with what you are saying?


Not something I've ever seen to be honest mate


----------



## pastanchicken

God said:


> But repairing is growing :confused1: When a muscle gets broken down enough it will repair bigger


My thoughts too


----------



## Tom1990

GSleigh said:


> I read so much that Protien just repairs muscle and carbs help it to grow.... So how does this theory weigh up with what you are saying?


i am eating fcuk all carbs at moment, just for breakfast, and after training, and im growing just fine :confused1:


----------



## DNC

Carbs don't help out at all with muscle building i thought,they just give you the fuel for your workouts and day to day life.


----------



## leonface

God said:


> PD will be proud of you when he reads that :tongue:


 :lol:


----------



## DNC

God said:


> PD will be proud of you when he reads that :tongue:


 :lol:

ha,ha,why?? Its the protein that builds your muscles for you???

Am i wrong in saying this??


----------



## DNC

Oh,and just to add,i'm actually on a very carb diet right now and i'm still growing.


----------



## GSleigh

DNC said:


> Carbs don't help out at all with muscle building i thought,they just give you the fuel for your workouts and day to day life.


O well **** a duck....

I am adding needless carbs into my diet by overeating oats then?

I think my balanace is currently: 350grams protien/ 500grams carbs..

I could reduce that i think to 350/350 and keep same gains with less fat gains?


----------



## DNC

GSleigh said:


> O well **** a duck....
> 
> I am adding needless carbs into my diet by overeating oats then?
> 
> I think my balanace is currently: 350grams protien/ 500grams carbs..
> 
> I could reduce that i think to 350/350 and keep same gains with less fat gains?


Yes,i reckon so mate,depends what works for you though.

When i eat alot of carbs they just tend to sit on my belly,i'm now keeping the protein high and having minimal carbs,find its working for me.Still got the same energy and feel less sluggish.

Try it and see what works for you,just keep protein high to keep building muscle:thumb:


----------



## Prodiver

Andrikos said:


> ...
> 
> *And there are points that I stonglyy disagree like with *having mayo , real butter(!!!!) , salad dressings and not having breakfast.Atherosclerosis here I come , that sounds like an unhealthy lifestyle and a lot of calories
> 
> Eating good fats is very important for overall health and bodybuilding.Olive oil is a must for that matter and far superior than any of these sources.
> 
> To equalise a fruit with a mars bar is not fair , a mars bar now and then is OK but ...
> 
> And I am not sure how can someone know how many carbs he should be taking , I know lots of people who have failed on that
> 
> Frequent meals are not necessary to build muscle but could help people that cannot control their apettite or have fluctuating blood glucose levels
> 
> This article does raise some interesting points but it gets maybe too simplistic and easy to digest?
> 
> Prodiver don't take my post the wrong way , I ve seen other posts of you and have much respect for you.Cheers.
> 
> Andreas


Thanks, Andreas - really interesting stuff! Prepare to get flamed on eating fewer meals being better for hypertrophy!

As someone else has sussed, mayo is actually very clean: just nutritious egg yolks and olive oil. And IIRC recent studies have shown a lower incidence of heart disease in those who drink milk and eat butter habitually. It's carbs that are the dangerous factor!

In practice, if you work out regularly, eating moderate amounts of such fats doesn't make you fat and doesn't raise bad cholesterol levels. And you need some saturated fats to make gear work properly, while high levels of Omega 3 and 6 may reduce inflammation and, unfortunately, muscle hypertrophy.

I didn't equate fruit with a Mars bar. Fruit provides simple carbs and fructose (no insulin spike) for energy, and makes short-term control of carbs easy. A Mars bar contains simple carbs and glucose so is good for energy and control but also a post workout insulin spike.

As others have found, if you consume the right amount of protein and a moderate amount of fats, controlling and limiting your carbs using your body's appearance and feel actually become quite easy without adhering to meaningless estimates in grams or calories.

And delaying breakfast is a proven way to mobilize your body fat stores!


----------



## Prodiver

GSleigh said:


> I read so much that Protien just repairs muscle and carbs help it to grow.... So how does this theory weigh up with what you are saying?


Protein doesn't just "repair" muscle, it is the material for growing new muscle cells.

Carbs do not provide material directly for muscle growth, but if you are getting enough of all the amino acids you need from protein as you should, carbs provide just the energy to live and work out.

So what you read is very vague!


----------



## Prodiver

GSleigh said:


> O well **** a duck....
> 
> I am adding needless carbs into my diet by overeating oats then?
> 
> I think my balanace is currently: 350grams protien/ 500grams carbs..
> 
> I could reduce that i think to 350/350 and keep same gains with less fat gains?


You can't possibly estimate how many grams of carbs you need!

Just eat only sufficient to provide enough energy for your daily life and worjouts - as others have said! 

You can easily get to know how much you need over about a week...


----------



## El Ricardinho

i read somewhere that if you dont eat within 1 hour of waking your body switches to some kind of depletion mode? not entirely sure what state though.


----------



## Prodiver

God said:


> PD, there's been a lot of talk on this thread regarding carbs but not as much about fats. You say you should take in a decent amount of fats but could you explain a rough guideline as to what proportion you think this should be for the average individual in relation to carbohydrate intake if they are trying to stay lean.
> 
> I'm aware that this will depend on your carb sensitivity and you're not into numbers but for Joe bloggs who wants to work out a diet and is taking in 300g carbs, how many fats should he have?


In practice you'll get some fat anyway in even lean protein-rich foods like chicken and steak, and quite a lot in pork, ham, bacon, cheese, milk, peanut butter, oily fish and nuts, so you don't necessarily need to try to eat much more.

But Tinytom and others recommend several daily tablespoonsful of Udo's oil or pure olive oil. I like to get some of my good oils in mayo and salad dressings - astringent vinegar (acetic acid) is also thought to be beneficial for digestion, anti-cholesterol and fat mobilization.

And I believe eating a reasonable amount of pure unsalted butter - MMMMMMM! - on wholemeal bread and jacket potatoes, for instance, is perfectly OK. Cream on puddings occasionally will do you no harm either.

Fats and oils are very satiating and make you feel replete (not hungry) especially when you're carb-limiting, and will provide fast energy if your bod is used to mobilizing its fat stores.

You'll surely know if you're gorging fats, and the evidence will be that even if you limit your carbs quite severely you don't lose flab because you're simply eating far too many calories overall!


----------



## GSleigh

To be honest even on my current carb intake i am constantly shattered but i work longer hours so not sure how to gauge what works best...

More and more good posts though


----------



## Prodiver

GSleigh said:


> To be honest even on my current carb intake i am constantly shattered but i work longer hours so not sure how to gauge what works best...
> 
> More and more good posts though


Are you sure you're shattered because your carbs are too low?

If so - increase them!

You need to eat sufficient carbs for energy and to spare your protein. But you won't put on fat if you eat enough carbs for ample energy but no more.

Up your carbs bit by bit. If you go too far you'll see a change in your bodyfat in about 2-3 days and can then back them off a bit.


----------



## Prodiver

Greekgoddess said:


> For me personally, I don't consider the amount of carbs I take in has any effect whatsoever on the amount of energy I have. I have huge amounts of energy all the time even when I am as low as zero carbs .The only time it drops is if I am ill, if I have any alcohol or if I don't get enough sleep/rest.


Fine - but if you have good energy on zero carbs, GG, you must be getting it from your protein and/or bodyfat - which last is not necessarily a bad thing.

But getting energy from protein can be an expensive way of doing it...


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## Prodiver

God said:


> ...
> 
> But where I am trying to slowly gain muscle and not lose it, it's a bit harder to tell. You have said time and time again on this thread that carbs are the thing that make you fat however surely too much fat could also have this effect. Just looking to get your opinion on a sensible range of fats (grams per day) or does this, as with carbs come down to activity levels and other factors?


Yes, of course, your fat requirement will change with activity level and body mass as well. Apart from being an energy store, fats are important mediators of many biological functions.

If you eat too much fat, you will get porkier even if you drastically limit your carbs. In practice you won't eat too much fat unless you have an obviously unhealthy diet.

It may well be that because of your activity levels you need well in excess of your theoretical maintenance calorie intake, in which case it will be clear that you need more carbs for sufficient energy.

If you don't eat enough carbs, you'll feel weak until after a few days your bod starts strongly to use your bodyfat for energy, and you rapidly start to get thinner.

But meanwhile it will also rob some of your protein for energy, and you'll find it hard to gain muscle, and may even lose some muscle size.

Again, in practice you shouldn't reach this situation because if you eat enough protein and fats and discover roughly your necessary average amount of carbs for energy, and work out intensely and watch your visible bodyfat levels, you can back off or increase carbs judiciously to maintain or reduce bodyfat slowly while making lean muscle gains.


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## Prodiver

El Ricardinho said:


> i read somewhere that if you dont eat within 1 hour of waking your body switches to some kind of depletion mode? not entirely sure what state though.


Yes - it starts to deplete your bodyfat. :thumb:


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## Prodiver

"Going back to my previous post... I stated that 300g carbs is definately enough for me using your logic and then using your calculation for protein (163g) and being sensible about fat (50g) I got the figure of 2302 calories to be exact. So you believe that with that intake bearing in mind my activity level I will gain muscle and lose fat if my training is correct?"

Well, try it and see!

You'll know within a week if you have enough energy and if you're losing fat and gaining muscle...


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## Prodiver

God said:


> I know this was all said a while ago but was reading through the thread and remembered watching a program on tv a while back that was relevant to Cons and Martins point.
> 
> Basically what they did was get 10 people from different cultures/backgrounds and measure there body fat using a bod pod. Once they had the starting measurements/weight/bf % they got everyone to eat a 5000 calorie diet (consisting of a lot of bad foods as well as healthy). After a month or so they retested body fat percentage/weight/measurements.
> 
> The results were quite startling. Some of the participants added considerable fat mass - Some peoples bodyfat percentage increased 8-10% in a month! Others however added very little fat and actually gained considerable muscle (One asian man in particular gained something like half a stone of muscle and only a couple of pounds of fat). An important thing to note is that ALL participants were banned from doing any exercise and were limited to a very small amount of steps each day. The diets were not high in protein and were loaded with carbs and fat yet a minority added muscle mass proving that carbs and fat CAN build muscle in some people and that everyone varies in how they respond to a high calorie diet in terms of fat gain and muscle mass.
> 
> I wish I could remember the name of the program. If I do I will post it and see if I can find a download to share.


Anyone who grows muscle must be eating sufficient essential amino acids (protein) and stressing their muscles enough for hypertrophy.

If they didn't exercise, the muscle mass they added was almost certainly stored glycogen.

If you work out intensely you will need an ample amount of carbs for energy.

It's simply that you don't need so much carbs that you put on fat while gaining lean muscle, and you can balance the amount so you use and lose fat.


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## Andy Dee

martin brown said:


> I still don't believe lowering carb intake can make somebody grow muscle better. It's just too theorised with zero actual evidence. There are 20million + people in the UK who are proof the fastest way to put on weight is high carb high cal diets.


Exactly, proof of what though? lean mass or fatass? 

The fact is its about gaining muscle not fat or poor bodysize, there is proof that you can grow off little carbs as this is what ive always done.

I grew very well off 250-300g carbs, 150g+ fats and 220-250g protein a day and found 300g carbs daily was the perfect peak to give me sufficiant energy levels in the gym.

I use to actually eat more fats than carbs at one point.


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## Grim_Reaper

well patric,

im stuck at 85kg now for two weeks running now, and i still cant see my abs.

I take aprox 170g protein per day training and non training days,

100g carbs on training days that inc post workout fast carbs at 50g + carnitine, green tea caps and pro+ caffeine. 20 min X trainer 4 times a week.

carbs are as low as possible on non training days.

what am i doing wrong:confused1:


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## martinmcg

Grim_Reaper said:


> well patric,
> 
> im stuck at 85kg now for two weeks running now, and i still cant see my abs.
> 
> I take aprox 170g protein per day training and non training days,
> 
> 100g carbs on training days that inc post workout fast carbs at 50g + carnitine, green tea caps and pro+ caffeine. 20 min X trainer 4 times a week.
> 
> carbs are as low as possible on non training days.
> 
> what am i doing wrong:confused1:


sounds like you straving to death ........ and body has gone in survival mode.. your only on 1500 kcal , minus your training and cv , 500?? only leaves 1000 to live on .... ,


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## Grim_Reaper

martinmcg said:


> sounds like you straving to death ........ and body has gone in survival mode.. your only on 1500 kcal , minus your training and cv , 500?? only leaves 1000 to live on .... ,


Well if thats the case how come i still have no abs????


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## Prodiver

Grim_Reaper said:


> well patric,
> 
> im stuck at 85kg now for two weeks running now, and i still cant see my abs.
> 
> I take aprox 170g protein per day training and non training days,
> 
> 100g carbs on training days that inc post workout fast carbs at 50g + carnitine, green tea caps and pro+ caffeine. 20 min X trainer 4 times a week.
> 
> carbs are as low as possible on non training days.
> 
> what am i doing wrong:confused1:


Are you gaining any lean muscle? If you are, and losing bodyfat, your weight may stay about the same. Abs are last to appear.

But do you really have enough energy to work out intensely? 100 gms/400 calories carbs a day seems very meagre, especially if you're doing cardio too.

According to TT and others your carbs are best higher on non-training days to build up energy and lower on training days.

170 gms protein plus 100 gms carbs will give you a total of 1080 calories a day which by any measure is a low average for an 85kg bloke who works out.

How much fat are you eating?

I suspect that much of your protein is being used for energy, not building muscle.


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## Grim_Reaper

Don't think so regarding gaining lean muscle (shirts not getting any tighter)

Fats are from mayo, p.butter and evo

I would say aprox 100g total train and non train days.


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## bravo9

pro plus and caffeine tabs ,, u must be buzzin mate


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## Grim_Reaper

bravo9 said:


> pro plus and caffeine tabs ,, u must be buzzin mate


Pro+ is caffeine lol


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## Grim_Reaper

I was 15st and quiet fat

Now im 13st 4 ish, and slimmer but now stuck with what my wife calls love handles


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## Prodiver

Grim_Reaper said:


> Don't think so regarding gaining lean muscle (shirts not getting any tighter)
> 
> Fats are from mayo, p.butter and evo
> 
> I would say aprox 100g total train and non train days.


So you're eating a total of about 1980 cals a day - that's still very low.

As Mart McGlynn says, your bod's prob in starvation mode! And I find it hard to believe you've enough energy to work out really intensely, especially with those stims and cardio!

I'm sure all your protein is being used for energy, so you won't grow any lean mass.

Up your carbs bit by bi till you actually start clearly to add bodyfat. Then adjust them. And plan a decent intense workout routine, limit the cardio for now and stop the stims.


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## Grim_Reaper

how much cardio do you think then??

20 min X trainer 350kcal aech time plus what ive used through training.

Why stop the stims??


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## Prodiver

Grim_Reaper said:


> how much cardio do you think then??
> 
> 20 min X trainer 350kcal aech time plus what ive used through training.
> 
> Why stop the stims??


I'd stop the cardio for a while until you get into a good strong workout routine. Start it again when you start to put on fat.

Meanwhile up your carbs judiciously to spare your protein.

A cup of coffee and some fast carbs are fine before working out, but you don't need chemical stims to do a good workout and lose bodyfat while you're trying to gain lean mass and if you're properly fed and not overtraining.


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## Grim_Reaper

Ok ill up carbs to 250 non training days and 200 training days

stll carrying body fat so how about X trainer once a week??


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## Prodiver

Grim_Reaper said:


> Ok ill up carbs to 250 non training days and 200 training days
> 
> stll carrying body fat so how about X trainer once a week??


Suck it and see - but watch carefully what happens: if you change several things at the same time it may be difficult to know what's responsible for what.


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## BoltonBobcat

all very interesting and i have adopted PD's thoughts to try and shift that last bit of stubborn fat around the base of the stomach....

now on excess Protein...I am currently consuming approx 130g to much protein per day, for my bodyweight of 173lb's, now i was of the opinion that any excess protein is turned into energy....similar to carbs and fats...and if that energy is not used then it will sit as body fat?

On that basis i am going to lower my protein intake to about 300g and see if there are any changes / loss of muscle mass...


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## Prodiver

BoltonBobcat said:


> all very interesting and i have adopted PD's thoughts to try and shift that last bit of stubborn fat around the base of the stomach....
> 
> now on excess Protein...I am currently consuming approx 130g to much protein per day, for my bodyweight of 173lb's, now i was of the opinion that any excess protein is turned into energy....similar to carbs and fats...and if that energy is not used then it will sit as body fat?
> 
> On that basis i am going to lower my protein intake to about 300g and see if there are any changes / loss of muscle mass...


Yes - any excess protein will be metabolized and about 47% turned into energy which may be stored as fat.

If it's only a small excess this can be compensated for when adjusting your carb intake.

But getting energy from protein is wasteful and expensive, and could reduce lean muscle gain if your carbs are too low.

You'll have seen there is some argument over how much protein you need to grow well.

Try 2 gms per kg actual bodyweight per day for a while, and up it judiciously if you're clearly not gaining lean muscle. Some advocate as high as 4 gms per kg.


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## big_jim_87

lol what happend to the days of force feeding and the "you should never feel hungry" princable gon? this is how i have gon about my diet since i started training and i do keep it clean a good 6k aday of clean cals. i do get a bit of a gut but this is all food and water bloat. im on a mini diet 9 days in and now a lot of water has fuked off imlean as a bean! lol prob only about 8-9% i dont even know why im on a low carb diet atm as i was lean to start with. i eat carbs from breky to super lol and still stay lean. im admit 6k for me did sund like a lot at 1st as im not huge but it has worked ok for me.

a rule i have gon by for a wile now is take lean body mass (lbs) x20-24 this is total cals you need each day. carbs are not the enemy if good carbs. i add very little fat on a bulk but again a little fat gain is not the total enemy ether, you gain a few lb fat nothing crazy, a few lb water that comes off easy! if you are 10lb heavier you will be stronger, joint are safer? if you are stronger you will lift heavier? if you lift heavier you cause more stress on the muscle? more stress = more hypertrophy? this is bodybuilding after all?


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## Miller

read a few pages of this and I think everything is down to your body type

as an endomorph, I think eating 3 meals a day and supplementing with 2 shakes would really be perfect for me now Iv learned, and anything in the ballpark of 200-220g of protein is plenty

I do think that the typical ectomorph would really struggle though, I've tried helping ecto friends put on weight before and 8 meals a day and 5000+ cals just dont seem enough for them (lucky bastards)


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## Grim_Reaper

endomorph,ectomorph ???


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## dixie normus

Grim_Reaper said:


> endomorph,ectomorph ???


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somatotype_and_Constitutional_Psychology

:thumb:


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## Grim_Reaper

Patrick mate,

how much

protein

Carbs

Fats

Do you think you personally consume per day??


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## Prodiver

Grim_Reaper said:


> Patrick mate,
> 
> how much
> 
> protein
> 
> Carbs
> 
> Fats
> 
> Do you think you personally consume per day??


I've rarely worked them out.

But I eat about 220 grams protein a day at present (my remaining body weighs about 110 kgs) mainly from chicken, but also beef, eggs, cheese, tuna and ham, supplemented with shakes.

I get some fats of course with my protein foods. I drink full milk in tea and coffee several times a day, and sometimes have about 1/2 a pint with Shredded Wheat for breakfast. If I make a wholemeal meat/ham/tuna and salad sandwich for lunch I butter the bread and add a little real mayo, and dress any salad I eat with oil and vinegar. I eat some peanut butter and a small block of cheese a week (Red Liecester - MMMMM!). But I rarely eat any biscuits or cakes etc. so I have few other sources of fat.

I eat a wholemeal home-baked medium loaf a week, and a few baked potatoes. But I eat plenty of fruit and salads.

I must be eating sufficient protein as I can gain muscle and keep it. And I have ample energy so I must be eating enough carbs. And I'm not getting noticeably porkier, though I've been having a lay-off during piggy-flu.

But I couldn't really say how many grams or calories total I eat!


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## Grim_Reaper

So would you say you having about 200 to 250g carbs then??


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## Prodiver

Grim_Reaper said:


> So would you say you having about 200 to 250g carbs then??


Well thinking about it, from protein I get about 880 calories; let's suppose I get about the same from 100 gms fats. That's 1760 calories.

As a 250lb + bloke (300lb if I had both legs) I must have a need of something like 3000 cals a day, so the outstanding 1240 minimum must come from about 300 gms carbs.

But as you know I mistrust guestimates of grams and cals, and I suspect I eat rather more fat than supposed above - which latest research suggests is better for test levels and lean muscle growth than high carbs.

However, I never said you should eat no or very little carbs - but just enough to have sufficient energy yet stay lean - which may actually be quite a sustantial amount for a big guy who works out hard.


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## Grim_Reaper

Well im currently on 170 to 200g protein per day from chicken and 2 shakes

100g fats from p.Butter and evo.

Carbs mostly from basmati rice at 250g non train days and 200 training days,

x-trainer at 20min once a week now after we last spoke.

My weight still holding at 85k but stomach still not going down


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## alabbadi

Nice post with lots of useful info, i agree with PD that counting calories can be misleading as one cannot accurately tell how much is in them.

i do use them as a guidline but not to count every calorie i just need to know that i am consuming roughly 500 cals a meal.

one point with regards to the comment PD made about not consuming breakfast when we wake up but 2 hours later. when i wake up i am hungry and the first thing i consume is 30-40g of whey i have read in a lot of bodybuilding websites and magazines that the body needs this after an 8 hour period of no food. so to wait another 2 hours wouldn't this cause the body to go into a catabolic state and therefore not burn fat instead it might use muscles for energy. i am not saying that PD is wrong i haven't tried it myself but this is what the so called experts preach.

What i am having trouble with is gaining muscle mass . i am improving all the time in the gym i.e getting stronger and i am not gaining much fat i have roughly stayed the same for the last 3-4 months however i upped my protein intake by 80g a day for the last 10 weeks but not seen much change in muscle mass.

my weight is 85kg and i use to consume around 140g -160g protein a day now i consume 20g more before and after workout and 40g consisting of whey an casien before bedtime.

i am puzzled why this increase has not brought on an increase in muscle mass.

so any help will be appreciated.

regards


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## Prodiver

alabbadi said:


> Nice post with lots of useful info, i agree with PD that counting calories can be misleading as *one cannot accurately tell how much is in them.*
> 
> i do use them as a guidline but not to count every calorie i just need to know that i am consuming roughly 500 cals a meal.
> 
> one point with regards to the comment PD made about not consuming breakfast when we wake up but 2 hours later. when i wake up i am hungry and the first thing i consume is 30-40g of whey i have read in a lot of bodybuilding websites and magazines that *the body needs this after an 8 hour period of no food. so to wait another 2 hours wouldn't this cause the body to go into a catabolic state and therefore not burn fat instead it might use muscles for energy*. i am not saying that PD is wrong i haven't tried it myself but this is what the so called experts preach.
> 
> What i am having trouble with is gaining muscle mass . *i am improving all the time in the gym i.e getting stronger and i am not gaining much fat i have roughly stayed the same for the last 3-4 months* however i upped my protein intake by 80g a day for the last 10 weeks but not seen much change in muscle mass.
> 
> my weight is 85kg and i use to consume around 140g -160g protein a day now i consume 20g more before and after workout and 40g consisting of whey an casien before bedtime.
> 
> i am puzzled why this increase has not brought on an increase in muscle mass.
> 
> so any help will be appreciated.
> 
> regards


A calorie is a calorie is a calorie! We know exactly how much energy is in one: 1 calorie! But we have no accurate way of telling how many we need on any day.

Whey - protein - on rising is fine. The body craves and gets used to being given carbs on rising though, so it doesn't burn fat. Avoiding carbs for an hour or so trains the bod to mobilize its fat reserves.

What sort of rep ranges are you doing in your workouts? Have you altered your routine to surprise your bod into growth?


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## alabbadi

Prodiver said:


> A calorie is a calorie is a calorie! We know exactly how much energy is in one: 1 calorie! But we have no accurate way of telling how many we need on any day.
> 
> Whey - protein - on rising is fine. The body craves and gets used to being given carbs on rising though, so it doesn't burn fat. Avoiding carbs for an hour or so trains the bod to mobilize its fat reserves.
> 
> What sort of rep ranges are you doing in your workouts? Have you altered your routine to surprise your bod into growth?


Thanks for your reply, with regards to sets and reps i usually keep them in the range 6-8 once i can lift a weight 8 reps i move the weight up. i always use this method for compound exercises. other exercises i may go 10-12 reps especially on shoulders biceps and triceps.

i am improving strengthwise all the time buit as said i am not seeing a big change in muscle mass. i am not puting on fat although i have a little but not worried too much as the proportion is low.

i just wondered why i am not seeing more muscle if i am training my muscles to failure and taking on extra protein.

regards


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## Zee Deveel

Prodiver said:


> Yes.
> 
> Edit: 30lbs in a year? Maybe, on someone really serious!


http://www.rosstraining.com/articles/hardcore.html



> Over a period of approximately 4 months, I was able to gain 12 pounds. Although 12 pounds is certainly not a huge increase in size, it would be equivalent to moving up one or two weight classes as a fighter.
> 
> After gaining the mass, I do not notice any changes to my conditioning. Overall, I feel as fast and explosive as I did prior to gaining the weight.
> 
> My experiment has shown me that one can gain size without impairing other athletic qualities. In my opinion, the most important aspect of mass building takes place in the kitchen. I did not make many changes to my actual training plan. The biggest change to my daily schedule was related to food consumption. I simply ate larger meals with greater frequency. The intense nature of my conditioning workouts allowed me to eat more without gaining body fat.


^^ Example of a guy gaining 12lbs in 4 months and gaining no fat, he's also not even a bodybuilder and trains more for conditioning than hypertrophy. So imagine what you could do!


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## Prodiver

Zee Deveel said:


> http://www.rosstraining.com/articles/hardcore.html
> 
> ^^ Example of a guy gaining 12lbs in 4 months and gaining no fat, he's also not even a bodybuilder and trains more for conditioning than hypertrophy. So imagine what you could do!


Here's hoping! :thumb:


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## Zee Deveel

Prodiver said:


> Here's hoping! :thumb:


This thread has been a really cool read by the way, thanks for starting it PD.

I'm starting a new training regime looking to gain as much lean mass as possible whilst hopefully cutting BF.

I'm doing low intensity fasted cardio every day. Heavy lifting twice a week and strength and conditioning circuits four times a week. I'm planning on eating really big on lifting days and for the following 36 hours then cut back on calories (carbs) on some of the other days to shed bodyfat.

How long would you say a muscle takes to recover fully. Clearly I'm asking you to generalize massively, but as a rough guide.. Are we looking at 36-48 hours or so?


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## Prodiver

Zee Deveel said:


> This thread has been a really cool read by the way, thanks for starting it PD.
> 
> I'm starting a new training regime looking to gain as much lean mass as possible whilst hopefully cutting BF.
> 
> I'm doing low intensity fasted cardio every day. Heavy lifting twice a week and strength and conditioning circuits four times a week. I'm planning on eating really big on lifting days and for the following 36 hours then cut back on calories (carbs) on some of the other days to shed bodyfat.
> 
> How long would you say a muscle takes to recover fully. Clearly I'm asking you to generalize massively, but as a rough guide.. Are we looking at 36-48 hours or so?


Thanks! I think you might ask TinyTom and James Ll about both days to eat big and recovery times.

It seems better to eat big on non-workout days, I believe, and recovery time depends on the person and their workout intensity. 48 hours is commonly stated, but working a muscle once a week seems effective, while some HIT routines advise no sooner than 10 or 14 days.


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## sizar

yeah some people eat big on the days off and eat abit less on training day .. i can understand why eat big on days off because muscle building requires alot of calories and energy.


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## Zee Deveel

Prodiver said:


> Thanks! I think you might ask TinyTom and James Ll about both days to eat big and recovery times.
> 
> It seems better to eat big on non-workout days, I believe, and recovery time depends on the person and their workout intensity. 48 hours is commonly stated, but working a muscle once a week seems effective, while some HIT routines advise no sooner than 10 or 14 days.


I remember reading a really good thread by TinyTom on this subject. Where he showed his workout split and which days he eats big, which he eats small etc.. Damned if I can find it though, any ideas?!

Oh when I said eat big on workout days, I meant post-workout and then for the rest of the day.  Though I'm gonna be lifting with my brother and he can't train until 8-9pm so I'm thinking a double sized casein shake and a big block of cheese pre-bed!


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## Bonzer

Zee Deveel said:


> I remember reading a really good thread by TinyTom on this subject. Where he showed his workout split and which days he eats big, which he eats small etc.. Damned if I can find it though, any ideas?!


This one?

http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/nutrition-diet-articles/71389-losing-weight-gaining-muscle-simple-guide.html


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## Slindog

I strongly disagree with the thread starter.

Efficiency requires routine


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## Guest

Slindog said:


> I strongly disagree with the thread starter.
> 
> Efficiency requires routine


And.....cue another ten pages:laugh:


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## AR77

So whats a healthy rate of weight gain using this method? 1-2lbs a week is what usually would be thrown around for bulking from what I've read but im guessing that it would be lower using this method? Maybe 2-3lbs a month?


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## Prodiver

ruaidhri said:


> Since september I have bulked up from around 13st to 14st with minimal fat gains. I have been counting calories every day making sure I hit my target. This method has obviously worked for me but it wold be so much easier if i could just eat when I'm hungry and make sure I hit my 200+g protein/day and make sure I have enough energy for workouts. My only fear is that I will probably be eating a couple of hundred (at least) calories less per day doing this so surely my muscle gains will suffer? To clarify, I aim for roughly 3600 calories per day at the moment but if I switch to what prodiver suggests and only eat when I'm hungry I've worked out that I'd consume more like 3200 per day so I fear I will lose muscle. Maybe as a result of the lower cals I'll lose a little fat but I'm probably about 13/14 % bf right now so I don't think I could drop much lower and contine to make the same gains? If i could stay at 8-10% all year round and continue to make the same gains that would be immense but its surely not possible?
> 
> Sorry for such a long-winded post there and if my questions sound stupid!


It was not I who suggested eating only when hungry - it's difficult to do if you have a job. Eating 3 good meals a day is fine.

You won't lose any muscle by reducing carbs - they don't build muscle themselves. But you do need enough carbs and fats for energy and to prevent any of your protein being used for energy. Just be aware that all excess calories are stored as fat, and carbs are the main contributor to this, not fat s themselves.


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## parttime buddha

Like the post and like the simple thinking with all the over-complicated things we keep seeing these days. I would like to add a couple of small considerations.

1. Breakfast in the a.m. is best eaten immediately upon waking since cortisol is high 1st thing in the morning. We all know cortisol is not our friend.

2. I hated the tired feeling I had when I tried some low carb diets and found integrating some complex carbs (eg: potatoes) into my daily meal plan helped my strength and seemed to help balance my blood sugar better. Everyone is different so total matter of opinion.

3. Some casein protein before bed should be a little more beneficial than a full meal. I personally sleep a little better when i keep that last meal simple. (tip-mix the protein in this meal in a glass, not a blender if you have a girlfriend. Gas=less ass :laugh

hope this helps add to your post - counting cals sucks and who can eat 400 grams of protein in a day without having a feeding assistant??? Thanks for the post & mindset.


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## powerhousepeter

thought id resurect an old thread, still read through it and it makes alot of sence, and its also simple, any body do or use anything similar to this?


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