# This should kick start some debate...



## Guest (Nov 16, 2004)

1.

Hang-Powercleans - 3x5

GoodMornings - 7x5

Lunges - 5x10

Calves Raise - 3x20

Farmers Walk - 2x1

Thick Bar Reverse Curls - 4x10

2.

Bench - 3x5

DB Bench - 7x5

Thick Bar OHP - 4x10

Close Grip Bench - 4x10

Flyes - 4x10

Neck Work - 2x20

3.

Squat - 3x5

Zercher - 7x5

SLDL (off blocks) - 5x10

Calves Raise - 3x20

Farmers Walk - 2x1

4.

Weighted Close Grip Pullups - 3x5

BB-Rows - 7x5

Seated Pulley Rows - 4x10

Chest supported Rows - 4x10

Shrugs - 4x10

Thick Bar Curls - 4x10

Neck Work

Aimed at myofribillar hypertrophy and lbage progression in the big 3.


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## GoldenArrow (Mar 30, 2004)

Fine.

Petty things....too much rowing. Maybe overworking the legs.


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## GoldenArrow (Mar 30, 2004)

Edit. PC, not legs.


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

James.Titor said:


> 1.
> 
> Hang-Powercleans - 3x5
> 
> ...


Not enough widening for back. Like wide pullups for one. I like to do 2 widening and 2 thickening. The back is the biggest sheet of muscle, needs special attention.  On number 2, I would do db inclines instead of flat db's.


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## powerU (Oct 22, 2003)

errrrr - deadlifts??


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## big (Sep 14, 2004)

Looks good to me. Needs regular deads and GHRs though IMO


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

powerU said:


> errrrr - deadlifts??


Wide back wide pullups. Deadlifts are done for thickness.


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## GoldenArrow (Mar 30, 2004)

He doesn't need deads, they'd be more harm than good in that routine.


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## Guest (Nov 16, 2004)

GA seems to be on the ball.

PowerU+Big, the powercleans are effectively my deadlifts for the moment. My powerclean weight is about the same I would do for speed deads anyway, and with all that heavy squatting and GMing [no facilities for GHR's, beleive me, they would be in there if I could]. Like GA says, deads would ruin my recovery.

Winger me old pal, WG chins are not only hell on the shoudlers (RC's) but totally not what I need right now. My lat's are good and strong from heavy deadlifts that have been the core of my routines for the last 2 years.

GA, nice point about the rowing. I may lower the volume there.


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## Guest (Nov 16, 2004)

winger said:


> Deadlifts are done for thickness.


Actually, I do deadlifts for hamstring and errecotr spinae hypertrophy, oh, and forarms, and biceps, and triceps, and lats, and calves..........


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

James.Titor said:


> Winger me old pal, WG chins are not only hell on the shoudlers (RC's) but totally not what I need right now. My lat's are good and strong from heavy deadlifts that have been the core of my routines for the last 2 years.


First off, chinups are the best back excercise there are period. Plus, I have never seen too wide of back. It also helps for shoulder width. It is only hell on the rc if dont incorectly. I have seen more people hurt from deadlifts than pullups.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Too much bench and not enough inclines.

Drop the db or bar and alternate diffrent week or weeks.

Need pullups in there you are doing too much rowing and not enough pullup/pulldowns.

Who said that deadlifts give you a wide back?

This is utter rubbish and does not stretch the lats out at all.


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## DB (Oct 31, 2003)

winger said:


> First off, chinups are the best back excercise there are period. Plus, I have never seen too wide of back. It also helps for shoulder width. It is only hell on the rc if dont incorectly. I have seen more people hurt from deadlifts than pullups.


agree with winger, never heard of anyone hurtin themselves from pull ups, i'm sure someone has but i aint heard of it, i do 4*10 pull ups a s a warm up for my bike works wonders nice and slow with good form, backs look like dog sh1t if there just thick not wide aswell and vice versa


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

Thanks diary. This sh1t is basic kinesiology. But what do I know. Look at the muscles mate. Work the muscles in line. Every thing else is just gay porn. 

Robert you just like a debate.


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## Guest (Nov 17, 2004)

[email protected] some of these replies.



> chinups are the best back excercise there are period


I disagree. Rows are.



> It is only hell on the rc if dont incorectly.


Thats not strictly ture. Very wide grip pullups put a lot of stress on the RC, even if done with perfect form.



> This sh1t is basic kinesiology


  My sentiments exactly.


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## Guest (Nov 17, 2004)

hackskii said:


> Too much bench and not enough inclines.
> 
> Drop the db or bar and alternate diffrent week or weeks.
> 
> ...


Not enough bench and too much inclines more like! Inclines are absolutely pointless in my opinion. I have never needed them, and don't ever expect I will do.

Even if inclines weren't the most pointless exercise since kickbacks, you are prescribing me an exercise without first knowing/asking weather or not I need it!

Strength is still myprimary goal, however, i want to be 15 stone by spring, so it makes sense to bulk using the lifts that I will use when I re-start proper training.

I said deadlifts give you a massive back. In all respects. Utter Rubbish? Have you ever seen Ronnie Colemen? I never do wide grip chins and there is nothing small about my lats.As for that comment about the stretch... It is my opinion that effective ROM is VERY different from possible ROM. Like with everything, the more weight you can shift, the better. Getting an extra 1-2" of ROM an sacrificing 10-20% of the weight you could use, is just silly IMO.


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## Guest (Nov 17, 2004)

diary barry said:


> agree with winger, never heard of anyone hurtin themselves from pull ups, i'm sure someone has but i aint heard of it, i do 4*10 pull ups a s a warm up for my bike works wonders nice and slow with good form, backs look like dog sh1t if there just thick not wide aswell and vice versa


Well I have. Isn't that enough?

You do pullups as a warm up for riding a bike, and your trying to tell me how to construct a routine? No offence intended, we all start learning somewhere mate, but thats pretty laughable TBH.

Dog sh1t? My back looks great thanks, esp considering I don't train for looks.


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

James.Titor said:


> [email protected] some of these replies.
> 
> I disagree. Rows are.
> 
> ...


Just because you disagree dosn't make you right.


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## Guest (Nov 17, 2004)

I know. But it doesn't mean you are either!


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

So are you saying that rows will give you a wider back that wide pullups?

When I say wide I never said how wide.........lol. Shoulder width is still wide Robert. Like I said before. The lat is the biggest sheet of muscle, it needs differnt attention. Rows are a thickening excercise and pullups are a widening excercise period. Anything else is just gay porn


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## Lorian (Apr 9, 2003)

Of course, a combination of both would probably be even more advantageous..

I don't believe there is really a 'best' excerise for any muscle group. A stong powerful muslce needs to have been subjected to a variety of training stimuli in my opinion.



L


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## Guest (Nov 17, 2004)

A brilliant post Lorian. I conceed that a combination is best, assuming all round strenght is your goal.

I don't buy that thickening/widening crap. you have a muscle. It [the whole thing] gets bigger or smaller, thats it.


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## trickymicky69 (Oct 1, 2004)

if you are always right james why do you bother asking for an opinion? every book and magazine i have ever read tells you that pull ups give you the width and the rows give you the shape/thickness. depending on the width of your grip when rowing it isolates diffferent muscles i.e the rhomboids or the spinae errectae. the only reason bbuilders dont do pull ups in every workout is because they are too heavy. ask anyone with more than half a brain and they will concur.


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## Guest (Nov 17, 2004)

trickymicky69 said:


> if you are always right james why do you bother asking for an opinion? every book and magazine i have ever read tells you that pull ups give you the width and the rows give you the shape/thickness. depending on the width of your grip when rowing it isolates diffferent muscles i.e the rhomboids or the spinae errectae. the only reason bbuilders dont do pull ups in every workout is because they are too heavy. ask anyone with more than half a brain and they will concur.


LMFAO @ that reply.

1. Im not always right, hence [1] the word "debate" in the title, and [2] the word "conceed" in my above post.

2. 99% of all the books and magazines I have ever read tells me the same, however, we all know that they print sh1t and the only way you ever really learn is form forums like this and personal experince.

3. ROWING IS NOT AN ISOLATION EXERCISE. Every type of Row hits your entire back. Learn your anatomy.

4. Ronnie Coleman [in my recently purchased DVD "the cost of redemption"] did BB-Rows with 400lbs+ and is in this months "FLEX" doing the same with over 650lbs.Are you going to tell me he can't chin his own bodyweight?


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## trickymicky69 (Oct 1, 2004)

"those who look but do not see go away no wiser than whence they came" james horniman


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## Lorian (Apr 9, 2003)

I'm happy for this to continue, just dont drag it down to being personal ok guys because that's where I sense it's going..

:gun:



L


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## Guest (Nov 17, 2004)

Nice quote. Not heard it before. Doesn't really apply in this instance. I am talking form personal experince and listening to those that are stronger than me, not some crap a ghost writer for FLEX tells me.

"This month: 10 hot tips to really stretch your lats out."


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## Guest (Nov 17, 2004)

My apologies to TR69 if any offence has been caused.


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

Lorian said:


> Of course, a combination of both would probably be even more advantageous..
> 
> I don't believe there is really a 'best' excerise for any muscle group. A stong powerful muslce needs to have been subjected to a variety of training stimuli in my opinion.
> 
> ...


I like that.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Well, I feel that pullups should be done.

I think they are a safe, and a good all around compound exercise.

Look at how good gymnists look. Oh, sorry they dont do any pulling from the ground and have massive backs and biceps.

High bar and rings is almost all pulling in some form or another.

Gymnists have great bodys.

For the sake of argument james, you seem to have alot of knowledge but not alot of experiance.

Experiance comes from doing something for years.

Not to put you down but I have been lifting longer than you have been born.

If you take nothing from this post take this.

You dont have to win a debate, argument to feel good or right.

Sometimes in winning you will actually lose.

If you have a hard time figureing that out then you can PM me.

We all have a right to our opinions. What applies to one wont apply to all. Just try to keep an open mind about it all. We all can learn something from someone else even children.

When I do bent over rows I dont feel alot of soreness in the lats.

When I do pullups and or pulldowns I feel the lats outside sore.

Bent over rows make the middle of my back sore and low rows hit just below my traps.

I see an application for both.

To say that you dont do pullups because you train for strength is a contradiction.

But to say that deadlifts work your lats as well as pullups or pulldowns then this just plain wrong.

Pullups and pulldowns have a great stretch on the lats. Just hanging from a bar can crack your back.


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## John (Jun 5, 2004)

but before i go into my point, i first would like to say isnt it great how we feel that we can say what we like when we like to whom we like any way we like, as long as we say no offence meant, or dont take this the wrong way!

This is pathetic and i include myself in there, im guilty of it too, i think we should just post our threads and replys and if we all dont think the same we should leave it at that, instead of putting each other down, i think were way to old for that, and im sure this board has already lost 1 good member who had many posts, down to something similar to this.

So i dont think all this silly bickering should be tolerated, as lorian and cheater have both said it lowers the tone.

Now to my point on training back, chins, rows, pulleys, man im surprised at you all, everyone knows the best way to train back is to hang from a chining bar, 1 hand wide the other really narrow, with your bare feet, whilst gripping a shopping trolley or any other odd object with your toes, and just hang there for as long as you can, this will build more muscle than any other exercise. ps this isnt meant to offend anyone, if it does im sorry.


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## Shib (Sep 16, 2004)

> everyone knows the best way to train back is to hang from a chining bar, 1 hand wide the other really narrow, with your bare feet, whilst gripping a shopping trolley or any other odd object with your toes,


ROFL

Doh, man how did i forget that


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

I apologize if I have offended anyone on this board and if I come across cross.

I again apologize.

This was never my intention to do this.

If for any reason I am pushing my opinions then again I apologize.

I don't want to push my thoughts, opinions, feedback, routine, cycles, anything, on anyone.

I don't want any altercations, negative feedback, put downs, etc.!

I am not all knowing, all answering, and all assuming, or all anything.

I just want to help. I don't have to be right and I love the feedback, negative or positive.

I visit this board (which is my favorite) because I want to learn, help, teach, be taught, and have fun. I know who to contact for information on all subjects that I need help on.

I am not a bully, just an old man expressing his opinions on things relative on subjects discussed.


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## trickymicky69 (Oct 1, 2004)

rows are not an isolation exercise? i myself believe they are. after bbuilding for a few years you LEARN to isolate your muscles. maybe you havent done this yet james? i can single out virtually any muscle group in my back and use only this muscle. rows work the whole back? this is dependent on the width and angle of the grip employed.you will not train your lower back with rows very effectively i feel when compared to deads, good mornings, hypers etc. maybe we are all wrong but half of these "ghost writers" have forgotten more than you will ever know and it doesnt hurt to show some humility. i have read nearly every post of yours and sometimes it seems like you are leading the questioning to start an argument. when the bbuilding is over maybe you could try a career in politics  this is NOT a flame just an observation


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## DB (Oct 31, 2003)

James.Titor said:


> Well I have. Isn't that enough?
> 
> You do pullups as a warm up for riding a bike, and your trying to tell me how to construct a routine? QUOTE]
> 
> thats a typo i ment back!


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## DB (Oct 31, 2003)

James.Titor said:


> 4. Ronnie Coleman [in my recently purchased DVD "the cost of redemption"] did BB-Rows with 400lbs+ and is in this months "FLEX" doing the same with over 650lbs.Are you going to tell me he can't chin his own bodyweight?


Well if u got cost of redemtion i'm sure u'll know that ronnie does 2 back days on thickening and one widening,

and wide grip pull ups are included.

i belive rows can hit ur whole back but only if its performed with different angles

Trickmickey69=after bbuilding for a few years you LEARN to isolate your muscles

couldnt agree more with u mate!! :beer:

Hackskii=I apologize if I have offended anyone on this board and if I come across cross...

Never have been offensive mate.


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## John (Jun 5, 2004)

Being offensive and intolerant here, we know who it is , yet we and i mean the board seem content to accept because " it just how he is ", what a lot of crap, we the Board have been conditioned into this way of thinking because its been going on so long !


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## John (Jun 5, 2004)

and i just got another cgi error.


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## Biker (Apr 8, 2003)

I haven't read all the posts but here's my take on a few of the things mentioned.

Lat pulldowns/chins IMHO will give more lat width than any other single exercise (performed slightly wider than shoulder width and to the upper chest with a slight arch in your back)

Rows are also good for lat width and IMHO come a close second in that respect, but the bonus with them is the thickness they will give throughout the lat from the outside right to the traps and including the lower portion of the traps - you will never IMHO get the same thickness with lat pulldowns/chins

Someone said somewhere than flat benching was better than incline from a bodybuilding perspective I don't agree, incline benching will build a much more asthetically pleasing chest than flat will. Personally and again from a bodybuilding perspective I don't really rate flat benching at all, and believe that decline and incline are all that needed.


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## John (Jun 5, 2004)

" how much can you bench ", weve all done it, its ridiculous, i know loads of guys who never do it, they always do decline and incline.

Man Dorian yates said he hated it, as it " causes more injury, than any other chest exercise ",

and he did ok without it.

" I don't really rate flat benching at all, and believe that decline and incline are all that needed. " quoted by biker.


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## Biker (Apr 8, 2003)

lol having said that I do make you do flat benching once a week John  lol and that's 5 sets of 2 reps also


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## DB (Oct 31, 2003)

yeah dorians chest was quality, and guess what piece of equipment he's using to do it on in his book???

a smith!


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## John (Jun 5, 2004)

youve taken that too far barry edit your last post quick , just to the part where you said he had a great chest .

And yeh Biker you do but we,ll let that slide for now


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## John (Jun 5, 2004)

James, but why would you buy this ? , you think bodybuilding is gay, strength is the way to go, Rc is a bodybuilder, not a strength trainer?

4. Ronnie Coleman [in my recently purchased DVD "the cost of redemption"] Seems Strange, you,d buy it thats all.:confused:


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## DB (Oct 31, 2003)

Its not a dig at anyone john, no need to edit it,

Just people forget that the smith can be a good piece of machinery, i dont have to use it as i have a trainin partner and have incline barbell benches at my gym, but he choose to use it thats all. he's got 4 plates each side also.

i dont have a problem with debating but it always gets out of hand and peoples opinions get forced apon others sometimes.

Anyway what lovely weather we've had today!!


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## John (Jun 5, 2004)

on the edit, i was being humourous as the smith always gets flamed, and stick your nice weather up ur aas, i live in scotland it sucks, lol


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## DB (Oct 31, 2003)

LOL!! fair play!

mmmmmmm scotland, oh that warm north sea breeze all that beautiful white snow..... u can keep it!

i'd prefer to b in sunny cali with hacks!!!


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## Shib (Sep 16, 2004)

diary barry said:


> i'd prefer to b in sunny cali with hacks!!!


Now is it the weather or hackski's warm body which made you come up with that comment


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## DB (Oct 31, 2003)

Shib said:


> Now is it the weather or hackski's warm body which made you come up with that comment


eeeeeerrrrrrrrrrrrrr....


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

Well I went into work with a t-shirt and shorts at 5:30 a.m. It was a little cold but ok. It is supposed to be 74 degrees today and sunny. 

Is James MIA?


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

It is nice here.

A bit cold in the late afternoon like in the upper 60's

Dont need a jacket.


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## trickymicky69 (Oct 1, 2004)

bloody freezing here but it makes it easier to train harder :lift:


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## John (Jun 5, 2004)

Is James MIA?

we aint this lucky.:boohoo:


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## Guest (Nov 18, 2004)

> For the sake of argument james, you seem to have alot of knowledge but not alot of experiance.
> 
> Experiance comes from doing something for years.
> 
> Not to put you down but I have been lifting longer than you have been born.


Thats patronising crap.

End of discussion.


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## John (Jun 5, 2004)

but the sh1t sounds about right.


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## Lorian (Apr 9, 2003)

K, this one has run it's course.

Regardless of if you see eye to eye with James, there's no denying it was a good topic and some good posts were made before it went off track.



L


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