# Superdrol and gyno



## chudds (Mar 30, 2009)

hi guys need some solid advice...

iv tried researching and have come across too many different answers!

im currently 6 days into a 3 week cycle of superdrol at 20mgs (my second cycle) and i think im developing gyno 

first time round i had no problems at all so i fort id run it again and i have some tenderness an puffyness in my left nipple and some hard lumps underneath and to the side. but there is no itching...

i have nolva on hand and have started 40mgs since yesterday but now im lead to believe this wont help as its progestin :confused1: (which im unsure about) now i have read a lot about letro but im unsure if i can get hold of it yet.

i need to finish my 3 week cycle realy so what would you guys suggest i do? any help is much appreciated! :beer:


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## Nemises (Jun 29, 2008)

if it is progestin it may in fact make it worse.

Bump fpr phhead. He seems to know his pro hormones


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## chudds (Mar 30, 2009)

i have just read this...

http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/pro-hormones/54175-tamoxifen-during-sd-if-i-suspect-gyno.html

which leads me to try what he has done but i dont what to make it worse


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## chudds (Mar 30, 2009)

bump guys any more info? please


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## PHHead (Aug 20, 2008)

nemises_gendo said:


> if it is progestin it may in fact make it worse.
> 
> Bump fpr phhead. He seems to know his pro hormones


I dont think it is a progestin mate as like you said Nolva would make it worse and theres guys on here that have reversed it that way, my guess would be that it works like oxys by directly simulating the receptor!


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## chudds (Mar 30, 2009)

so the nolva approach should see me ok?

i am on the second day of 40mg on nolva i plan to do a 3rd of 4th day to see if the symptoms subside then drop to 20mgs for the rest of the cycle

cheers guys


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## Macro (Jun 9, 2008)

generally nolva is a bad idea with superdrol. there are many cases of on and post cycle gyno from superdrol linked to nolva.

the most effective treatment is prolactin suppression.

now in truth, the why of that is somewhat murky since the binding, metabolites, and non genomic effects of superdrol are basic unknowns. its a di-methyl-- that alone makes it a whore (how much.. no one knows).

what is clear is that tamoxifen more often than not either does nothing or exacerbates the issue.

prolactin suppression is generally effective, in most cases ameliorating the issue.

cabaser (cabergoline)- aurapharm

pramipexole- researchstop

are two solid options.


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## PHHead (Aug 20, 2008)

Macro said:


> generally nolva is a bad idea with superdrol. there are many cases of on and post cycle gyno from superdrol linked to nolva.
> 
> the most effective treatment is prolactin suppression.
> 
> ...


Yes this is a tricky one, hopefully what ever road the guy takes will be the right one.....................not to hijack the thread but since you seem quite knowledgable on these sort of issues, what would the recomend for Oxy gyno as I have a touch and have tryed Letro, Adex, Proviron, B6, and high doses of Nolva and its done F*ck all? Cheers!


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## chudds (Mar 30, 2009)

i am struggling to find sources for some stuff.. i will find out if i can get letro tonight!

i am thinking of cutting the cycle now and up the nolva and just run the pct... i dont know what to do for the best to stop the gyno as it doesn't have see to stop with the nolva (as i know now)

i have only done 6 days of SD, i have quite a high body fat (15-20%) so im constantly wondering weather its just fat or is infact gyno and the pain is me constantly checkin it...

but it jus want to cut the cycle now


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Dont know jack about superdrol.

You wont need more nolva, it is very strong even at low dose.

But it may make your gyno worse.

Again, I never tried superdrol.


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## chudds (Mar 30, 2009)

so dropping the superdrol and starting pct could make the gyno worse?


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

You wont need to do a PCT after 6 days mate.


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## chudds (Mar 30, 2009)

that was my thought... seeing as though it might not be the normal gyno its the sd creating the imbalance so ill stop that just keep up 20mg on nolva just incase normal gyno occurs...


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## Macro (Jun 9, 2008)

just get some pramipexole from researchstop or cabaser from aurapharm.

dont keep taking nolva. the doses you have taken will stay in your system long enough for one of the above to arrive. Niether should take more than a week, the only issue with aurapharm is they sometimes take a couple days to ship. Not sure of the exact shipping time for either to the UK. RS is florida based and aurapharm ships from various sites in the EU.


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## Macro (Jun 9, 2008)

chudds said:


> hi guys need some solid advice...
> 
> iv tried researching and have come across too many different answers!
> 
> ...


this normally does not happen in 6 days, so it was probably there to a great extent prior.

so likely a result of your previous cycle... guessing that you used nolva for PCT... for that one.


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## chudds (Mar 30, 2009)

will none of these get stopped by customs or the such?


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## chudds (Mar 30, 2009)

yeah i used nolva for my previous cycle... so this has just flared it up again?!

i do belive SD is a no no for me then! would this mean im prone to gyno now or jus the combo of SD and Nolva?

what kind of dosages am i lookin at of cabasa?


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## Macro (Jun 9, 2008)

chudds said:


> yeah i used nolva for my previous cycle... so this has just flared it up again?!
> 
> i do belive SD is a no no for me then!


probably

and

probably not, even with concurrent dopaminergic use (because of the speed and extent of flare)... though have seen people with similar (perhaps not as rapidly occuring issues) that were able to use "offenders" by using pramipexole or cabaser.


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## Macro (Jun 9, 2008)

as a note- IMO superdrol is an extremely toxic steroid with many unknowns. it also has the dubious priveledge of being listed on pubmed (for causing fulminant hepatic failure).


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## chudds (Mar 30, 2009)

cheers marco gonna try n get hold of some cabaser asap!


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## chudds (Mar 30, 2009)

hey guys things still arnt going right!!

iv got cabbaser and in taking that at 2mg a day also im takin b6 at 6-800mg a day and if anything i think its getting worse!

im begining to think it might not have been prolactin gyno as no matter how hard i squaeze i do not lactate....

i have just ordered some generic femera (letro) which i spretty much my last option

what do you guys suggest any help is much appreciated!!!


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

If after trying tha cabaser and you still have problems id say try the letro.

I reversed my gyno with that.


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## sitries (Feb 28, 2009)

you really shouldnt be trying to squeeze it mate! just gna make it worse. get in the letro and 2.5mg per day and itl killthe gyno...and ur libido! but thats a price well worth paying IMO


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## Sylar (Sep 7, 2008)

^ That's what I was going to say..:laugh:

If you have gyno mate, squeezing your nipples with enough force to the point of forced lactation is really not a wise thing to be doing LOL... Not that, that is the only symptom of elevated prolactin anyway's..

I don't fully understand gyno from these Prohormones tbh, really puzzled as to why guys touch them with a barge pole in the first place when there are much safer alternatives in the AAS world with many decades of clinical data backed up behind it.

Let us know how you get on mate, be interesting to see what the AI does.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Another note here, playing with your nipples can increase prolactin in men.

Just better to leave them alone anyway.

Once when I had a gyno flairup, some dude slapped me on the chest right across the nipple, within 2 days the lump was noticially bigger.

I for the life of me cant understand why dudes pinch and slap my nipples.

They are always hard but hell, I dont go around slapping anyone anywhere.


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## chudds (Mar 30, 2009)

cheers guys, i would highly recomend not taking over the counter crap ever again!!

i thought i was being clever and doing it legal but iv got nolva.... how clever am i!

well at first i thought i was me messing with them to much... my plan is dnt take anything till the letro arrives which iv ordered from 2 places so hopefuly ill defo get some!!!

is letro a popular anti e?? as none of my sources have even heard of it?!


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## chudds (Mar 30, 2009)

oh and i would happily sacrifice my sex drive for a while!!! haha


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Femara (letrozole) is popular and very strong, if anything will reverse that gyno it would be this one.

Side effects are stiff joints, and it can crush your libido.


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## Macro (Jun 9, 2008)

stop taking b-6. it does lower er expression, but it lowers AR expression more. this is not desirable, and can make lactation worse. particularly in men with HPGA suppression.

how long on cabergoline? cabaser tablets?

ALWAYS stack AI with dopaminergic. You may also need HCG to get your HPGA kicking again.


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## chudds (Mar 30, 2009)

been taking it for a week started on .5mg taperd up to 2mg

should i be taking it with nolva or another ai?!


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## Guest (Apr 24, 2009)

> Another note here, playing with your nipples can increase prolactin in men.
> 
> Just better to leave them alone anyway.


****, i love playing with my nipples


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## chudds (Mar 30, 2009)

iv been searching for some time on a few forums now as to weather nolva would still be a bad idea? even with the cabaser as that would take car of the prolactin sides and nolva would take care of the estrogen i just need a stop gap untill my letro arrives which feels like its taking for ever!!!


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## chudds (Mar 30, 2009)

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/steroids/123701-progesterone-prolactin.html

i have just had a read through this and found it very intresting!

from what i have gathered prolactin and progestins do not cause gyno.... the problem all stems from estrogen! the problem with sd and tren (19 nors) lower SHBG which which protects against breast growths.

another note i picked up was that nolva can still be used against 19 nors with some success as many report nolva increase progestins reception or production but this apparently only happens in the uterus and not in breast tissue so will not exaggerate this issue

now this is only what i have read from this thread but the guys seems to know his stuff... please slate me if i got it wrong


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Wow, that seth dude is pretty sharp.

This is gonna take a while to read it all (6 long pages).


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## chudds (Mar 30, 2009)

yeah a lot of stuff there but seems to be good! (not that i can question it haha)


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## ares1 (Apr 27, 2008)

cabergoline wont do much.

Superdrol is methyl masteron (a modified DHT steroid) in some cases they may upregulate the progestin receptor, however very little is known (remember superdrol never had any medical studies carried out on it before humans were subjected to it)

based on that i would say letro is you're best option. i cant really recommend doses as ive never run it before.


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## firestorm (Feb 11, 2009)

SD doesn't aromatize so is supposedly incapable of causing gyno, however, there have been quite a number of cases of it happening. There has been a theory that SD being a progestin combined with nolva which also stimulates the progestin some form of delayed gyno can occur. There's no concrete proof on this however.

Has your bodyfat increased? For me and many others SD causes a fair amount of water retention and is typically used to bulk, increased calories of course will help to increase body fat levels. I would say any gyno you have, if it is gyno, is from an increase in body fat and if you cut back down it would probably go. An AI such as Letrozole or Arimidex would be my choice in combating this rather than a Serm.


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## Macro (Jun 9, 2008)

people have said for ages that "only estrogen" causes gyno. And in some sense thats relatively true. However, since most people have pre-existing gyno (apprx 70% of people get gyno either as neonates or during puberty.), that produces a host of hormones and enzyme factors including high levels of aromatase. the estrogen initiation and maintainance is there.

btw- erko (estrogen receptor knockout) mice can develop breast tissue. primarily ductal tissue. so for "normalish breast tissue" estrogen is needed, but other hormonal factors can induce breast tissue growth (but again here- most people already have the minimal base.)

Prolactin is a growth factor, one that is essential for breast tissue growth and maintanence. NO ONE ACTUALLY KNOWS THE IMPACT OF THESE STEROIDS. They do suppress progesterone, AND AGAIN --- NO ONE KNOWS THE IMPACT OF PROGESTERONE SUPPRESSION WITH THESE ANDROGENS WHICH ARE PROMISCUOUS LIGANDS.

now that aside, estrogen is present, even with suppression. There are likely other E's, in this case in particular, and this likely is unnaffected by tamoxifen.... bonus points to the first person to name the, 3 beta reduced,methylated metabolite of superdrol. Likely a highly potent estrogen and androgen (since the 3beta dht metabolite is such).

this is also not even accounting for the fact that most PgR antagonists are also antagonist of the GcR (BOTH actions which generally increases prolactin).

70% of gynecomastia is considered to be idiopathic. you have can very low estrogen levels, but that signalling can be amplified by a number of compounds including prolactin.

Can say this, prolactin suppression is very effective in cases non responsive to E suppression. As an ADDITION, by suppressing this direct agonist and E "cofactor".

as a note- according to BC and perhaps Seth, superdrol cannot cause gynecomastia. Which is clearly not true.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Macro said:


> bonus points to the first person to name the, 3 beta reduced,methylated metabolite of superdrol.


Im gonna take a stab at this one........DHT..

Superdrol/methasteron 2a,17a-Dimethyl-17ß-hydroxy-5a-androstan-3-one


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## Tall (Aug 14, 2007)

Macro said:


> people have said for ages that "only estrogen" causes gyno. And in some sense thats relatively true. However, since most people have pre-existing gyno (apprx 70% of people get gyno either as neonates or during puberty.), that produces a host of hormones and enzyme factors including high levels of aromatase. the estrogen initiation and maintainance is there.
> 
> btw- erko (estrogen receptor knockout) mice can develop breast tissue. primarily ductal tissue. so for "normalish breast tissue" estrogen is needed, but other hormonal factors can induce breast tissue growth (but again here- most people already have the minimal base.)
> 
> ...


Agreed.

So the thoughts that have been kicking around for a while are:

E rebound

Idiot users with poor product choice (Test Boosters seem to be causing gyno, key issues are data comes from 16 - 19 year old "bros" on the boards)

Progesterone/Prolactin

Theres a possible link between Superdrol, reduced thyroid activity and then delayed Gyno.

Given Superdrol doesn't aromatise, there is clearly some "unwanted" activity given the number of users reporting nipple issues only a few days into the cycle.


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## ba baracuss (Apr 26, 2004)

Tall said:


> Agreed.
> 
> So the thoughts that have been kicking around for a while are:
> 
> ...


Which test boosters do you mean? AI ones or prohormones?


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## Tall (Aug 14, 2007)

ba baracuss said:


> Which test boosters do you mean? AI ones or prohormones?


The ATD ones and the 6-bromo ones mate are reported as causing gyno.

ATD is steroidal.

Think about it - even hCG is a gyno risk.

The issue though is the quality of the reported data...


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## ba baracuss (Apr 26, 2004)

Tall said:


> The ATD ones and the 6-bromo ones mate are reported as causing gyno.
> 
> ATD is steroidal.
> 
> ...


OK, cheers for that. Reason for asking is I reckon I have mild estrogen issues and have got some aromasin to run low dose to see if it helps.

Aromasin is steroidal, and an AI obviously, so you have me a little concerned now...


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## Tall (Aug 14, 2007)

ba baracuss said:


> OK, cheers for that. Reason for asking is I reckon I have mild estrogen issues and have got some aromasin to run low dose to see if it helps.
> 
> Aromasin is steroidal, and an AI obviously, so you have me a little concerned now...


BA I'd bet you could control it with diet and supps rather than taking an AI.


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## ba baracuss (Apr 26, 2004)

Tall said:


> BA I'd bet you could control it with diet and supps rather than taking an AI.


Perhaps, but there's a bit more to it - I use a DHT blocker to keep my hair intact which I have assumed is allowing estrogen to become proportionally higher, what with DHT opposing it etc...


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Tall said:


> The ATD ones and the 6-bromo ones mate are reported as causing gyno.
> 
> ATD is steroidal.
> 
> ...


HCG has the worst sides for gyno, one shot and the next day you can have alot of pain and a lump.

I have never seen anything that promotes gyno for men that are not gyno prone.

I think some of the anti-estrogens and specifically the AI's tend to promote gyno after the stuff clears.

Once you take an AI, the estrogen receptors become sensitive, once the drug leaves the system there is a flood so to speak of estrogen, those sensitive estrogen receptors then respond to the influx of estrogen.


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## ba baracuss (Apr 26, 2004)

hackskii said:


> HCG has the worst sides for gyno, one shot and the next day you can have alot of pain and a lump.
> 
> I have never seen anything that promotes gyno for men that are not gyno prone.
> 
> ...


Even if you taper the dose off gradually?


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## Sylar (Sep 7, 2008)

I use Type-II/Type-I AI's on cycle and with PCT and never suffer any problems post cycle with regards to gyno. If you don't taper heavily suppressive E1/E2 AI's off though, it's a no brainer there will be some oestrogen rebound.

SERMS if anything could cause problems when coming off if you've been running them for a large part of the cycle for gyno control. I've haven't read one report of Aromasin casuing post delayed gyno as a result of oestrogen rebounding, whether it be clinical or anecdotal.

Type-I AI's like Aromasin are noncompetitive inhibitor's - They bind to the aromatse enzyme and initiate a sequence of hydroxylation, this hydroxylation produces an unbreakable covalent bond between the inhibitor and the enzyme protein. From this point on, enzyme activity is permanently blocked, even if all unattached inhibitor is removed.

The only way aromatase enzyme activity can now be restored is by new enzyme synthesis, this is a gardual process and should counter the chances of sudden oestrogen rebound you may experience when dropping Type-II competitive inhibitor's that reversibly bind to the active enzyme site, like Letro etc. I've never heard of one report concerning Aromasin and post delayed gyno as a result of running it - and will gladly read any clinical studies proving otherwise if anyone has them?


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

ba baracuss said:


> Even if you taper the dose off gradually?


Yes, it would be a good idea.



Sylar said:


> I use Type-II/Type-I AI's on cycle and with PCT and never suffer any problems post cycle with regards to gyno. If you don't taper heavily suppressive E1/E2 AI's off though, it's a no brainer there will be some oestrogen rebound.
> 
> SERMS if anything could cause problems when coming off if you've been running them for a large part of the cycle for gyno control. I've haven't read one report of Aromasin casuing post delayed gyno as a result of oestrogen rebounding, whether it be clinical or anecdotal.
> 
> ...


Aromasin is a suicide inhibitor correct?

I was maingly suggesting the Aromatase inhibitors.

Nice post, I wondered why aromasin didnt rebound, always heard it but never understood why.

Thanks Sylar.


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## Sylar (Sep 7, 2008)

hackskii said:


> Aromasin is a suicide inhibitor correct?
> 
> I was maingly suggesting the Aromatase inhibitors.
> 
> ...


Yeah, It's a Type-I steroidal suicidal Aromatase Inhibitor mate.

I'm running it at full dose now along with Prami to shift a lump I recently developed on a Test/Tren cycle. Going to slightly prolong the cycle on low dose Cyp until I sort the gyno out I think. Really in two minds whether to bridge tbh... Haven't made up my mind 100% yet.

Don't think oestrogen is the primary driver seeing as I was running Adex for prevention at the time at a relatively high dose, so don't want to jump on Nolva with PCT just yet and potentially exacerbate issues...


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

I see.

I was never gyno prone, but the last two cycles I got a bit of a lump and the last one I reversed it with letro.

Now on out, any cycles will result in some form of prevention.

I was going to do the blast and cruise, I think I was on for like 13 weeks, I packed it in and I just cant have my blood pressure elivated like that, not to mention, I have cycled in and out for the last 6 years, and this last time I felt like it was giving me an attitude, I felt shorter with people.

I notice over time things tend to build up.

Like my bodies systems are rebelling, I am very sensitive to most things and can see things develop as time goes on.

I will re-access things in the future, but this BP deal is not cool, I dont have any plans on checking out early, I only have a 9 year old.

My BP has always been boarderline, on gear it can get to stage II stroke ranges.

Thats not cool.

Hell, my doctor told me to not lift heavy weights. He felt it would put a strain on my heart and pushing 50 he couldnt believe that I keep going fairly heavy.

Obviously I didnt take that advice...lol


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## james c (Aug 24, 2008)

chudds said:


> hi guys need some solid advice...
> 
> iv tried researching and have come across too many different answers!
> 
> ...


 this is why i will never do any steriods reliated 2 progesterone


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## PHHead (Aug 20, 2008)

Sylar said:


> Yeah, It's a Type-I steroidal suicidal Aromatase Inhibitor mate.
> 
> I'm running it at full dose now along with Prami to shift a lump I recently developed on a Test/Tren cycle. Going to slightly prolong the cycle on low dose Cyp until I sort the gyno out I think. Really in two minds whether to bridge tbh... Haven't made up my mind 100% yet.
> 
> Don't think oestrogen is the primary driver seeing as I was running Adex for prevention at the time at a relatively high dose, so don't want to jump on Nolva with PCT just yet and potentially exacerbate issues...


Sorry to hear your having Gyno trouble mate........hows the Prami going, any sides as I may be running it soon?


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## Sylar (Sep 7, 2008)

PHHead said:


> Sorry to hear your having Gyno trouble mate........hows the Prami going, any sides as I may be running it soon?


Going well mate, lump has defintiely decreased in size since starting treatment about 5-6 days ago - Aromasin may be helping aswell mind, i'm not 100% sure what degree oestrogen is contributing to the gyno, but Adex didn't stop it from developing in the first place and that has always done a great job at prevention for me. Even increased the dose to 1mg ED after inital gyno symptoms arose and still developed the bloody lump!

I'd start off on .25mg ED on the Prami and gradually taper up, if you don't taper you can pretty much guarantee you'll feel sick as a pig. I know Harry started off on a higher dose and regretted it lol.. Macro wrote a good article on Pramipexole dosing here:

http://www.afboard.com/forum/anabolic-discussion/30264-pramipexole-prolactin-suppression-prevention-vs-treatment-dosing.html

Can't say for certain it will work for you, but it's worth a shot IMO seeing as Letro, Nolva etc had zero impact on your gyno mate. I'd still probably stack it with an AI though...


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## PHHead (Aug 20, 2008)

Sylar said:


> Going well mate, lump has defintiely decreased in size since starting treatment about 5-6 days ago - Aromasin may be helping aswell mind, i'm not 100% sure what degree oestrogen is contributing to the gyno, but Adex didn't stop it from developing in the first place and that has always done a great job at prevention for me. Even increased the dose to 1mg ED after inital gyno symptoms arose and still developed the bloody lump!
> 
> I'd start off on .25mg ED on the Prami and gradually taper up, if you don't taper you can pretty much guarantee you'll feel sick as a pig. I know Harry started off on a higher dose and regretted it lol.. Macro wrote a good article on Pramipexole dosing here:
> 
> ...


Nice one mate, well I'll follow your progress and try it myself if you get a result. Cheers!


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## Macro (Jun 9, 2008)

Sylar said:


> Going well mate, lump has defintiely decreased in size since starting treatment about 5-6 days ago - Aromasin may be helping aswell mind, i'm not 100% sure what degree oestrogen is contributing to the gyno, but Adex didn't stop it from developing in the first place and that has always done a great job at prevention for me. Even increased the dose to 1mg ED after inital gyno symptoms arose and still developed the bloody lump!
> 
> I'd start off on .25mg ED on the Prami and gradually taper up, if you don't taper you can pretty much guarantee you'll feel sick as a pig. I know Harry started off on a higher dose and regretted it lol.. Macro wrote a good article on Pramipexole dosing here:
> 
> ...


the benefits of prolactin suppression are manyfold. Prolactin is a throwback ancestral hormone, that is not need in adult males. Its controversial whether its needed for development as most, if not its roles are better filled by other more specifically acting pituitary and fragment factors.

those that deny such, and there are some "armchair guru's" that do (which is worse because both the science and anecdotal reports back up the benefits of pramipexole and to a lesser extent cabergoline- lack of autoreceptor effects- or at least less), are more than a bit obtuse.


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## bigacb (Nov 13, 2007)

hackskii said:


> I see.
> 
> I was never gyno prone, but the last two cycles I got a bit of a lump and the last one I reversed it with letro.
> 
> ...


Are you currently running hgh scott? I've read a few studies regarding HGH helping with blood pressure and strengthening the cardiac system in general just at a low dose.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

bigacb said:


> Are you currently running hgh scott? I've read a few studies regarding HGH helping with blood pressure and strengthening the cardiac system in general just at a low dose.


No, i cant afford it, but I am going to be running some GH enhancers and pulsing stuff really quick.


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## bigacb (Nov 13, 2007)

The studies i saw were at 1iu's ed so maybe its an option at such a low dose?


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

bigacb said:


> The studies i saw were at 1iu's ed so maybe its an option at such a low dose?


Yah, for the life extension folks that are older, they generally start out at 1iu a day, or at night rather.

25mg DHEA they take as well.

Some take 100mg test cyp a week, and also .5mg adex twice a week.

Others also add melatonin for more restfull sleep.

Read alot of stuff on old men taking it and reversing some aging, some said it rolled back the clock 10 years.

Trust me if I had it, I would be taking it right now.


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## bigacb (Nov 13, 2007)

Haha no worries. Have you heard any benefits of taking HGH for eczema as ive found very little info but one guy said it cleared it up. That was at 1iu ed aswell.


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## Manticore (Aug 29, 2008)

Interesting thread. So many unknowns and debated issues to get your head around. When talking about pre-existing gyno, presumably pubescent related - are there any AIs or other substances effective in reversing the effects. I've heard many perspectives on this one.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Yes, AI's can be used to reverse some gyno issues, I had gyno myself and reversed it with letro.


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## Manticore (Aug 29, 2008)

hackskii said:


> Yes, AI's can be used to reverse some gyno issues, I had gyno myself and reversed it with letro.


and letro isn't likely to cause estrogen rebound would you say?


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## Sylar (Sep 7, 2008)

Manticore said:


> and letro isn't likely to cause estrogen rebound would you say?


It's a dead cert to cause rebound if you don't adequately taper off - I'd still following up with a SERM or weaker AI after tapering off too just to be on the safe side. Seen a couple guys get gyno from the rebound even after tapering...

If off cycle, i'd either breifly run Nolva or Aromasin after tapering down to counter potential oestrogen rebound. If on cycle, jump onto a low dose weaker AI like Adex or Aromasin for the remainder of the cycle to ensure gyno doesn't return.


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## Manticore (Aug 29, 2008)

Sylar said:


> It's a dead cert to cause rebound if you don't adequately taper off - I'd still following up with a SERM or weaker AI after tapering off too just to be on the safe side. Seen a couple guys get gyno from the rebound even after tapering...
> 
> If off cycle, i'd either breifly run Nolva or Aromasin after tapering down to counter potential oestrogen rebound. If on cycle, jump onto a low dose weaker AI like Adex or Aromasin for the remainder of the cycle to ensure gyno doesn't return.


Sound advice, which i shall adhere to there Sylar.

How long would you recommend running Nolva or Aromasin for after tapering down?


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Manticore said:


> and letro isn't likely to cause estrogen rebound would you say?


For sure taper that down, I would give myself about a 3 week taper on that.

Or, have a SERM instead then you wont have to worry about it.


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## Sylar (Sep 7, 2008)

Manticore said:


> Sound advice, which i shall adhere to there Sylar.
> 
> How long would you recommend running Nolva or Aromasin for after tapering down?


I've had to use Letro twice to date and both times were on cycle, so tapered down then jumped onto a weaker AI for the remainder of the cycle. Last time I tapered Letro down over 9 days at .25mg stages ED until I reached the final 0.25mg dose, then jumped onto my usual preventative low dose of Adex for the remainder of the cycle. Think I did run the Adex at 1mg ED for the first 4-5 days though...

I was using liquid Letro, If you have the tabs it can be a bit more tricky to accurately taper down at such precise doses, the best you could probably manage with accuracy is a 1/4 of a tab at a time. I'd drop it by a 1/4 E4D, then jump onto either a SERM or Aromasin. Most of the guys i've seen using Letro off cycle run the SERM ( usually Tamox) for 8-10 days afterwards with no rebound issues as of yet, so i'd do it something like that mate.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

I love you Sylar, and I am not gay...............Good advice as usual mate.....

Caution for estrogen rebounding is always a good idea, one perhaps could un-due what they undone with the use of AI's for reversal of gyno.

Sylar has some good information on aromasin and non tapering.....................Cheers mate.......


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## Sylar (Sep 7, 2008)

hackskii said:


> I love you Sylar, and I am not gay...............Good advice as usual mate.....
> 
> Caution for estrogen rebounding is always a good idea, one perhaps could un-due what they undone with the use of AI's for reversal of gyno.
> 
> Sylar has some good information on aromasin and non tapering.....................Cheers mate.......


Aww Thanks mate lol... :blush:

I did begin to question your sexuality after reading your Lymphatic Drainage posts in the Personal Care section though.... :tongue:


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Sylar said:


> Aww Thanks mate lol... :blush:
> 
> I did begin to question your sexuality after reading your Lymphatic Drainage posts in the Personal Care section though.... :tongue:


Oh my. :blush:

This reminds me of another story.

Many years ago I used to sell weed to people at work. I lived across the street and many people would come over on payday.

One rather large (huge actually) lady used to visit me alot.

She often made comments about her ability to use her mouth on men.

She was damn good at that.

One night she came over to my place wearing nothing but a tee shirt.

She has huge knockers, but she was huge too.

As she came into my house, I just pushed her down and hammered on her.

I know she liked me but she was not pretty by any standards.

She later told the guys at work I raped her (years later).

To this day 20 years later, my friends still laugh at me and she is the topic.

She still works here, she has red hair that looks like a rooster, she is round like a ball and wears tight spandex pants.

She is also 10 years older than me too...

I will never live that one down.


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## ba baracuss (Apr 26, 2004)

:lol:


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## PHHead (Aug 20, 2008)

Sounds like an average wk end for me mate lol..............


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Sad part is I see her almost every day and when she walks by my friends say there goes your girlfriend.


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## Sylar (Sep 7, 2008)

FPMSL!! :lol: :lol:


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

My brother at break time kept bringing it up over and over, then the 8 guys at the table were talking then my brother brings it up again.

I may need to change careers.....lol


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## Macro (Jun 9, 2008)

hackskii said:


> No, i cant afford it, but I am going to be running some GH enhancers and pulsing stuff really quick.


really should give prami a try. its GH benefits are actually noticeable.

eg.

http://www.professionalmuscle.com/forums/showthread.php?p=564094#post564094


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Wow, that kind of sounds promising.

Macro, do you feel that inhibiting prolactin would be a benefit for fat loss?

I know a guy that had a prolactin secreting tumor and he got really fat and gyno.

The GH release alone might help here.


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## Macro (Jun 9, 2008)

hackskii said:


> Wow, that kind of sounds promising.
> 
> Macro, do you feel that inhibiting prolactin would be a benefit for fat loss?
> 
> ...


yes. both suppression of prolactin and GH increase help.

prolactin causes hypoglycemia, which causes overfeeding and exaggerated insulin response. Its lipogenic. basically prolactin is from a bodybuilding standpoint and general male health view, pretty much the devil.

its moderate to high prolactin levels (higher than men generally, and much higher when breast feeding) that is associated with higher rate of auto-immune diseases in women.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Oh freaking awesome.

I will pick some of that up, sounds like a catch 22 where it not only hinders GH production but yet increase fat storage.

I would suspect that fat loss slows when dieting from prolactin?


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