# Bulk or Cut (BMR / Calorie) - Help (Pictures)



## TheStarkFactor (Mar 12, 2013)

Hey,

I've been weight lifting and doing cardio now for around three months and I've lost two stone in the process.

I started out weighing 14.3 stone and today weigh 12.2 stone.

I was a 'skinny fat' person and I still have more fat to lose, particularly around my chest, stomach and hips.

My goal is to get to a lower bodyfat percentage before I start my first bulk as I just wasn't happy with the amount of fat that I had and didn't want to risk adding more through a bulk.

So in reality I have started off my weight lifting on a cut and at first it was just guess work in terms of calories and diet, but now I feel I have much better understanding of TDEE, BMR, Macros etc.

But I'd really appreciate it if some of you wouldn't mind checking over my figures and help me decide whether to keep cutting or start a bulk.

My stats:

5ft 10"

77.2KG / 12.2 Stone

Age 32

Male

Here is a before picture and some afters....

*BEFORE*










*AFTER*



















As I still have some love handles and bodyfat, I'm leaning towards just continuing on a cut, even though I am probably loosing some muscle in the process, as I am much happier without the fat than I am with it and even if bulking didn't add any excess fat, my worry is that I would still have the existing fat to cope with!

So, UK Muscle experts, do I continue cutting, or do I now start to bulk?

I am currently eating 2100 calories a day, split 40/40/20 (P/C/F) my BMR is circa 1800 and I used a variety of different calculators/spreadsheets to come up with that figure. I know it's below the TDEE for someone who does moderate exercise 3 - 5 a week.

I've also noticed my progress has slowed recently, over the past two weeks I don't seem to have lost any further weight according to the scales and I don't look any different in the mirror, I'm also reluctant to believe I have built any muscle through this process, even with beginner gains!

Anyway, my head hurts thinking about all of this, so I really just want to decide, do I keep cutting for another month to try and shed the rest of this bodyfat, or do I start a bulk now and start pushing for some mass!?

I'll need a hand double checking my bulking figures if I do go down that road.

Oh and almost forgot, current routine is 3x Weight Sessions a week (Full Body - Compound Exercise) and 3x Cardio Sessions a week (Interval Training Treadmill).


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## TheStarkFactor (Mar 12, 2013)

I've just had another look in the mirror and the fat around my chest and hips just has to go! So I'm going to cut for another four to six weeks. Does my calorie intake seem okay for my stats?


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## armor king (Sep 29, 2013)

dude you need to pump some iron. DO IT NOW!!!!!


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## 31205 (Jan 16, 2013)

You're eating more than maintenance arent you? 2100 vs 1800?? so how will you lose weight?


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## TheStarkFactor (Mar 12, 2013)

Yeah BMR 1800 and eating around 2100 calories daily. I'm lifting three times a week but obviously not eating enough calories to support much if any muscle growth.

As I say this was because my priority was fat loss.

Just not sure whether to go for a bulk or keep cutting as my body fat % is still far higher than I'm happy with.


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## TheStarkFactor (Mar 12, 2013)

Sorry read your question again, BMR is 1800 but TDEE is around 2700 based on my exercise routine so I'm eating a lot less than TDEE but above BMR. I thought BMR was what your body burned anyway? So 2100 would still aid fat loss as it less than TDEE when factoring in exercise 5 times a week?

If people think I should bulk at my current weight/bodyfat then I'm willing to start now - it's just getting over the not wanting any fat gain mentality.

Though I do totally appreciate I will have a better body compensation anyway because of the muscle gains.

So, UK Muscle, do I bulk, or continue to cut?


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## swampy9785 (Sep 27, 2008)

Would definitely still cut mate, I would have a physique goal in mind rather than plan for 6 weeks etc


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## saxondale (Nov 11, 2012)

cut, cut, cut ............. and lift


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## Test and Carbs (Aug 22, 2014)

No offence mate, but there's nothing to you, you're just gonna look like a skinny runt if you lose any more. Bulk and lift big, no question.


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## TheStarkFactor (Mar 12, 2013)

So two votes for cut and one for bulk .... argh lol.

I'm not going to take anything personally, so fire away with the advice.

Biggest problem is my bodyfat % is still high, so I'm on the fence about cutting or bulking.


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## saxondale (Nov 11, 2012)

TheStarkFactor said:


> So two votes for cut and one for bulk .... argh lol.
> 
> I'm not going to take anything personally, so fire away with the advice.
> 
> Biggest problem is my bodyfat % is still high, so I'm on the fence about cutting or bulking.


i always advocate diet first, prove you can before getting fatter.

9 times out of 10 the lean look was the one you wanted anyway, easy then to lean bulk/maintain what you have


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## TheStarkFactor (Mar 12, 2013)

saxondale said:


> i always advocate diet first, prove you can before getting fatter.
> 
> 9 times out of 10 the lean look was the one you wanted anyway, easy then to lean bulk/maintain what you have


So do you think I should cut and eat under maintenance calories or should I go for a couple of hundred above maintenance and try a lean bulk?

I could quite happily continue on the cut, 3x weight sessions and 3x cardio sessions a week, but I do appreciate I will have very little to show for it in terms of muscle mass by the end, I'll simply have lost weight.

I guess I'm trying to find a middle ground that probably doesn't exist, unless a few hundred calories over maintenance is the way forward....


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## spaglemon (Mar 15, 2012)

I was/am in a very similar position to you I'm 6' 2" and dropped from over 20 stone to 12 st 6lb and looked bloody awful, now attempting slow, clean bulk,

I'd still suggest you continue to cut first though, psycologically as has already been mentioned, if you've come from fatness just knowing that you can get lean will allow you not to panic when you bulk and begin to add a bit of fat back imho


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## saxondale (Nov 11, 2012)

keep cutting, lift heavy weights and you`ll be suprised what happens


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## TheStarkFactor (Mar 12, 2013)

Okay, I'll keep cutting .... using my TDEE spreadsheet, my BMR is around 1800, with moderate exercise, 3 - 5 times a week, TDEE is 2776.

Spreadsheet suggests eating around 2100 calories to lose around 2.5lbs a week. Can someone cross check my working based on my stats in the first post?

Oh, one other question, if I'm cutting, should I continue with the cardio, or reduce/stop and focus entirely on lifting? I'm just worried the cardio might hinder any small gains I do see....


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## diesel09 (May 27, 2009)

what's your training routine look like? its all good dieting and doing a bit of cardio but if your training is sh*t your not going to grow


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## NoGutsNoGloryy (Jan 7, 2013)

Definitely keep cutting. You've only just started lifting anyway you'll gain muscle even in a fairly high deficit, however don't just suddenly go 1000cals below maintenance you'll encounter a fvck load of problems...


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## TheStarkFactor (Mar 12, 2013)

Thanks chaps. Does 2100 calories sound reasonable based on my stats?

Training routine is all compound moves - free weights, bench, squat, deadlift, pull ups, dips etc (3x10) three times a week.


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## diesel09 (May 27, 2009)

split or all those compound lifts on all 3 training days?

id suggest switching to a good ppl routine but that's just my opinion


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## TheStarkFactor (Mar 12, 2013)

diesel09 said:


> split or all those compound lifts on all 3 training days?
> 
> id suggest switching to a good ppl routine but that's just my opinion


Yeah, full body workout, three times a week, so every part worked.

PPL = Push, Pull, Legs?


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## diesel09 (May 27, 2009)

TheStarkFactor said:


> Yeah, full body workout, three times a week, so every part worked.
> 
> PPL = Push, Pull, Legs?


yes mate, I think it would be much more beneficial than 3 full body workouts,


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## TheStarkFactor (Mar 12, 2013)

diesel09 said:


> yes mate, I think it would be much more beneficial than 3 full body workouts,


I'll have a look into it, can you point me in the direction of a decent one for beginners?

Also, can anyone chip in on my calorie calcs ... just want to make sure it makes sense!


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## diesel09 (May 27, 2009)

http://oldschooltrainer.com/3-day-push-pull-legs/

take a look at that mate, that's what I would recommend, I used it and see some brilliant gains and strength increase! a lot of people on here use this method of training aswell,

also what are your macros like? I respond well to a high protein low carb moderate fat diet, maybe a have a look into that, with the ppl training and added cardio you should shed the lbs fairly quickly while packing on some good size


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## TheStarkFactor (Mar 12, 2013)

diesel09 said:


> http://oldschooltrainer.com/3-day-push-pull-legs/
> 
> take a look at that mate, that's what I would recommend, I used it and see some brilliant gains and strength increase! a lot of people on here use this method of training aswell,
> 
> also what are your macros like? I respond well to a high protein low carb moderate fat diet, maybe a have a look into that, with the ppl training and added cardio you should shed the lbs fairly quickly while packing on some good size


Macros are 40, 40, 20 at the moment (P/C/F).

I'll have a look at the link - thanks.

I've gone with 2300 calories for my daily intake, so around 20% below TDEE.


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## TheStarkFactor (Mar 12, 2013)

Hey.

Just an update - I've moved over to the stronglifts programme and I am just over two weeks into that.

I've upped my cals to just over maintenance at 2550. Still hovering around the 12 stone mark so haven't really lost any "weight" according to the scales.

I'll post a progress picture later after work to see if you guys can see any difference. I'm liking the stronglifts programme I just really want to get rid of the last remaining bits of fat on my hips/stomach and chest.


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## MrSilver (Aug 4, 2014)

Strong lifts is all right, I think the volume of starting strength is better for us 'noobs' though personally.

I'm in a similar position to yourself although I'd say I'm a few % BF above you.

Whats your stats?

Bench 5x5 at ?kg

Squat 5x5 at ?kg

Deadlift 5x5 at ?kg

Overhead Press 5x5 at?kg

Powerclean 5x5 at ?kg


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## TheStarkFactor (Mar 12, 2013)

silverzx said:


> Strong lifts is all right, I think the volume of starting strength is better for us 'noobs' though personally.
> 
> I'm in a similar position to yourself although I'd say I'm a few % BF above you.
> 
> ...


Hey.

Sorry for the slow reply.

Bench 5x5 = 42.5kg

Squat 5x5 = 55kg

Deadlift = 60kg

Overhead Press 5x5 = 42.5kg

Barbell Row 5x5 = 42.5kg

Eating circa 2400 calories a day which is around maintenance (TDEE) according to IIFYM.

Current weight is 12 stone on the dot. For the past six weeks I've slowly moved from 12.3 to 12.0 stone, so not a lot of 'weight' loss according to the scale.

I also don't see much muscle gain, though my biceps do seem bigger, but I'm guessing this is because there is very little fat on my arms so this is more obvious.

I'm debating whether to drop my calories to a proper cut, around 2000 and just continue for two weeks to see what happens. My bodyfat % is still too high for my liking, anyone want to hazard a guess as to what % I am?

Currently look like this ......


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## MrSilver (Aug 4, 2014)

What are you playing in the background?


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## TheStarkFactor (Mar 12, 2013)

silverzx said:


> What are you playing in the background?


lol ... my daughter had been playing Goat Simulator!


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## MrSilver (Aug 4, 2014)

TheStarkFactor said:


> lol ... my daughter had been playing Goat Simulator!


I did wonder.. Can't say I've ever heard of it!


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## Mikkeltaylor (Jun 10, 2014)

Problem I found with stronglifts was that if you are are just starting out with the barbell n want to lose bf then the volume and weight just isn't enough in the first few months


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## pooledaniel (May 8, 2013)

BF Looks 15-20% to me. Hard to gauge.

I can see how it's a tricky decisions between cut / bulk.. but personally I'd look to strip down a little more so you're starting from a decent body fat. You will be small to begin with, but should be a lot more noticeable when you start to pack on muscle if it's not already covered up with BF!

You are definitely thinking a lot into the numbers though that's for sure. Few tips from experience: Don't rely too heavily on a formula. Listen to your body, track results and work off current intake as a baseline. Don't constrain intake up or down based on what a formula tells you. Also, make sure you are training hard! At the level you are at, you'll be surprised the progress you can make even whilst 'cutting' if you really put the work in at the gym.


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## funkdocta (May 29, 2013)

If it was me I would be looking to put some muscle on from where you are, you still look skinny fat. I would be eating clean and at maintenance or just above, high protein and LIFT LIFT LIFT! You will find it a lot easier to burn the fat when you have more muscle mass.

That is just what i would do personally.


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## snuden (Aug 26, 2010)

cut cut cut.. lift lift lift.. and eat clean


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## TheStarkFactor (Mar 12, 2013)

I have been doing HIIT two to three days a week on top of the strong lifts, but my latest idea, was to drop calories to around 2100, drop the cardio, and continue to lift and progress, the weights are starting to get tough now as well, so I feel I'm starting to get more of a workout.

I have a feeling that with all the cardio I was doing on top of the weights that my body was holding on to fat reserves because I was only eating around maintenance on top of weight training and cardio..... or at least that's my theory, what do you think?

Also, there has been some nights where I get hungry, but I've eaten my calorie intake for the day and hit my macros, do you think I should listen to my body and eat something or stick to the figures?


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## pooledaniel (May 8, 2013)

TheStarkFactor said:


> I have been doing HIIT two to three days a week on top of the strong lifts, but my latest idea, was to drop calories to around 2100, drop the cardio, and continue to lift and progress, the weights are starting to get tough now as well, so I feel I'm starting to get more of a workout.
> 
> I have a feeling that with all the cardio I was doing on top of the weights that my body was holding on to fat reserves because I was only eating around maintenance on top of weight training and cardio..... or at least that's my theory, what do you think?
> 
> Also, there has been some nights where I get hungry, but I've eaten my calorie intake for the day and hit my macros, do you think I should listen to my body and eat something or stick to the figures?


I'm not convinced by the body holding on to fat reserves because you are eating around maintenance? By definition you need to be under maintenance to lose fat.

Also.. I wouldn't get too rigid with a number from a formula, but if you want to monitor progress properly - you'd be best to keep the same intake every day, otherwise it's very difficult to accurately assess when changes need to be made.


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## TheStarkFactor (Mar 12, 2013)

pooledaniel said:


> I'm not convinced by the body holding on to fat reserves because you are eating around maintenance? By definition you need to be under maintenance to lose fat.
> 
> Also.. I wouldn't get too rigid with a number from a formula, but if you want to monitor progress properly - you'd be best to keep the same intake every day, otherwise it's very difficult to accurately assess when changes need to be made.


Thanks for the advice.

I've adjusted to 2100 and will aim for that over the next two weeks and see how I get on.

What are your thoughts on continuing the HIIT alongside the weights?

3x Weight session and 2x HIIT sessions a week.


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## pooledaniel (May 8, 2013)

TheStarkFactor said:


> Thanks for the advice.
> 
> I've adjusted to 2100 and will aim for that over the next two weeks and see how I get on.
> 
> ...


That's the best way! Give it at least two weeks... monitor your weight, energy, lifts in the gym and how you look in the mirror! I'd advise taking photos also (you don't have to share them, but it can be hard to notice changes if you don't).

I'd say keep the HIIT in. Good to keep fitness up! I wouldn't add any more cardio on top of that until you've established your baseline and seen what happens to your weight. If your weight stays flat, i'd be inclined to say up cardio rather than dropping intake any more as you'd be getting to really low levels. Hold off for now though and keep it as a tool for when you need it!

As for weights, I'd always opt for more than 3 sessions personally - but depends on your time constraints/recovery/motivation I guess. Should still do the trick for now


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## TheStarkFactor (Mar 12, 2013)

pooledaniel said:


> That's the best way! Give it at least two weeks... monitor your weight, energy, lifts in the gym and how you look in the mirror! I'd advise taking photos also (you don't have to share them, but it can be hard to notice changes if you don't).
> 
> I'd say keep the HIIT in. Good to keep fitness up! I wouldn't add any more cardio on top of that until you've established your baseline and seen what happens to your weight. If your weight stays flat, i'd be inclined to say up cardio rather than dropping intake any more as you'd be getting to really low levels. Hold off for now though and keep it as a tool for when you need it!
> 
> As for weights, I'd always opt for more than 3 sessions personally - but depends on your time constraints/recovery/motivation I guess. Should still do the trick for now


Thanks for the reply 

Okay, sounds like a plan, I'll aim for 2100 calories over the next two weeks, 2x HIIT and 3x Weight Sessions.

Unfortunately I can't up the number of weight sessions as the Stronglifts programme is fixed, three times a week, though I do add 2.5kg to all exercises each session, aside from deadlift where I add 5kg each session, so there is progression. I started with the bar only about six weeks ago.

It's starting to get tough across all the exercises now, so I just hope I can continue to progress whilst eating the above calorie intake.

The stronglifts programme suggest you 'eat' your way past a weight that you can't lift, so I'm not sure how that is going to work on a cut.


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## pooledaniel (May 8, 2013)

TheStarkFactor said:


> Thanks for the reply
> 
> Okay, sounds like a plan, I'll aim for 2100 calories over the next two weeks, 2x HIIT and 3x Weight Sessions.
> 
> ...


Fair point. It's a longggg time since I ran stronglifts! If you are new to this, you've got a decent shot at pushing the weights even on a fairly restricted intake. The 'eat' your way past a weight kind of applies for pure strength training, but remember that stronglifts isn't really designed around body composition.. so may not be completely aligned with what you are aiming for! That said, it's still a great way to get started and build up your core lifts.


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## TheStarkFactor (Mar 12, 2013)

pooledaniel said:


> Fair point. It's a longggg time since I ran stronglifts! If you are new to this, you've got a decent shot at pushing the weights even on a fairly restricted intake. The 'eat' your way past a weight kind of applies for pure strength training, but remember that stronglifts isn't really designed around body composition.. so may not be completely aligned with what you are aiming for! That said, it's still a great way to get started and build up your core lifts.


Yeah, I was thinking of running stronglifts for three months, before moving on to something else, as you're right, I'm aiming for aesthetics, not strength, but I do like the progression each session with stronglifts.

I'm assuming I will build some noticeable muscle though over the course of three months? I hope anyway as I imagine I may feel somewhat demotivated if it gets to December and I look crap lol.

Well I'm finding it hard now with the current weights (see previous post), the advice on the programme is to try lifting the weight once you struggle at least three times over three sessions before deloading and building back up.

As I can't eat any more, is there any other way I can get around a weight barrier?

I know it's not part of stronglifts, but I read somewhere that on a cut you don't necessarily need to progress, just maintain, but I guess that's counter productive to the fact I'm trying to gain!

What other programmes are good for aesthetics, so muscle mass, after stronglifts?

Really appreciate all this helpful advice.


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## pooledaniel (May 8, 2013)

TheStarkFactor said:


> Yeah, I was thinking of running stronglifts for three months, before moving on to something else, as you're right, I'm aiming for aesthetics, not strength, but I do like the progression each session with stronglifts.
> 
> I'm assuming I will build some noticeable muscle though over the course of three months? I hope anyway as I imagine I may feel somewhat demotivated if it gets to December and I look crap lol.
> 
> ...


As I say, SL is decent to build up some base strength. Remember though... you can have progression on pretty much every program! If you're new to training, you should see some changes. Don't expect to get massive, but you should see a lot more shape to your physique; rounding out shoulders etc.

To get through a weight barrier... the deload and work back up does tend to work quite well. Other than that, it gets a bit more technical and comes down to the choice of assistance exercises to work on weakpoints of each lift. For example if you are struggling with lockout on bench, you'd work board press / floor press.

And I'd say you are more or less right there... generally on a cut, maintaining strength/size is the realistic target if natural. You're unlikely to be making any exciting gains haha!

As for other programs, my advice is don't over engineer it. If you're new to it - you can go with any fairly simple program and just learn the movements properly. Teach your muscles how to contract and apply some consistency to your training. I'd recommend MI40 by Ben Pakulski purely for the videos (the training plan may be a bit much to begin with); these are absolutely excellent and really break down the technique. If you can nail it down and follow the tips set out in these videos, you'll give yourself a much better base to start lifting.


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## mrwright (Oct 22, 2013)

I like how the guys with the avis showing there your size if not smaller and taking the pizz telling you to lift some weights

But those that look decent have given some useful info and help


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## saxondale (Nov 11, 2012)

mrwright said:


> I like how the guys with the avis showing there your size if not smaller and taking the pizz telling you to lift some weights
> 
> But those that look decent have given some useful info and help


Just read through the thread, yours is the only negative comment?


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## Peace frog (Jul 2, 2014)

I started this year with similar goals wanted to drop BF and gain few kilos of muscle and I've been doing 8 weeks on 1 week off,started off on full body 3x a week on a cut for 8 weeks then did 3 way split 2x a week on maintenance calories then 5 part split on maintenance plus 500 cals a day and it's worked well,got 4 weeks left then switching to PPL due to work.i think as long as your consistent with diet and not missing gym sessions most programmes work to a degree


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## jay101 (Aug 9, 2011)

Just seen this thread , first off well done dropping the fat ,

You need to decide if you want to get stronger ( increasing your lifts ) or carry on dropping the fat, of course we would all love to do both just like that but if your eating below maintenance then it's inevitable that your going to stall.

I would personally carry on with the stronglifts and track my calories eating clean properly.

As you get stronger and grow muscle you will see the difference as your muscle takes shape due to the increased resistance but saying that I like the big bulky look on me rather than skinny tbh


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## mrwright (Oct 22, 2013)

saxondale said:


> Just read through the thread, yours is the only negative comment?


There's a few saying "lift weights" or lift lift lift that kinda thing

Not really negative But not exactly nice helpful comments geeza asked what he should do laid everything out clearly and sensibly wanting to know if he should cut or bulk

And gets told basically "lol ur skinny ***** lift sum weits lol" by guys who don't look like they lift yet are probably on their 5th heavy cycle


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## Peace frog (Jul 2, 2014)

As for cut or bulk,i would cut a little more first but I'm no where near as experienced as a lot of guys on here and they may say different


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## TheStarkFactor (Mar 12, 2013)

Thanks for all the replies chaps, really appreciate the advice.

I'm sticking at 2100 calories, hitting my macros and continuing with stronglifts, current weight 5x5 weights stats are below.

Squat 60kg

Deadlift 60kg

Bench 42.5kg

Barbell Row 42.5kg

Overhead Shoulder Press - 37.5kg

Deadlift is getting very hard, squat is starting to get hard and the shoulder press is really challenging for me now, bit nervous about the next 2.5kg progression!

I'll review in four weeks and see how I feel. I'll probably stick up some photos for you guys to take a look and see how you feel I'm doing - it's always good to have someone else critique as I sometimes can't see changes in my body yet others can!

At my current cals, do you think two days HIIT of 20 mins is sufficient?


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## TheStarkFactor (Mar 12, 2013)

Demovitated tonight, looked in the mirrors and there's **** loads of fat still around my mid section and hips, I can grab a huge chunk between my fingers.

So I'm definitely continuing with the cut, but I'm now questioning everything, as to be honest, I've been at the cardio for nearly six months, and weights for two, so wasn't expecting many gains in terms of muscle, but I was really expecting to have shifted most of the fat by now and being in the low BF%.

Am I being unrealistic or should I be pretty low BF. I'm trying to figure out what's going on, not enough cardio, too much, not the right type, as I don't think my diet is out of check, hit my marcos, eat decent/clean.


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## saxondale (Nov 11, 2012)

mrwright said:


> There's a few saying "lift weights" or lift lift lift that kinda thing
> 
> Not really negative But not exactly nice helpful comments geeza asked what he should do laid everything out clearly and sensibly wanting to know if he should cut or bulk
> 
> And gets told basically "lol ur skinny ***** lift sum weits lol" by guys who don't look like they lift yet are probably on their 5th heavy cycle


Nah, dont see it.

Regarding last post OP - you're still eating too much, whats your diet been so far this week?


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## TheStarkFactor (Mar 12, 2013)

saxondale said:


> Nah, dont see it.
> 
> Regarding last post OP - you're still eating too much, whats your diet been so far this week?


So we think 2100 is too much? Thing is I still tend to feel hungry even at this level.

Anyway .... That's split, 40P, 40C and 20F.

Typical day this week is below.

2x Scoops Diet Whey Protein - Upon Wake

Porridge

1x Banana

Salmon or Chicken Sandwich (Wholemeal Bread) usually with some veg on the side.

2x Scoops Diet Whey Protein - Afternoon

1x Tablespoon Organic Peanut Butter

45g Granola + Fat Free Greek Yoghurt

Tuna + Cous Cous + Veg

Cardio is done after work on an evening on average twice a week - interval training.

SL are done Monday, Wednesday, Friday.


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## Peace frog (Jul 2, 2014)

If the weight lose has stalled maybe need to lower the cals a little further or try messing around with meal timings like IF .

2100 does seem low but everybody is different metabolism wise


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## TheStarkFactor (Mar 12, 2013)

Hmmm. Just to complicate matters, I've weighed myself in a different room on another hard surface, just to see whether there is a weight difference, I appreciate its not morning, so I'll double check then, but it says 12.7 stone.

Which doesn't really help, because, A, that means I'm heavier than I thought and B, I should actually be eating MORE calories than I am.

I'm at a bit of a loss, felt I was doing well, tonight has kinda really set me back.


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## Peace frog (Jul 2, 2014)

What does the mirror say? Scales ok for working out cals but no real guide for fat lose and you do look like you've done really well with that so far


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## Peace frog (Jul 2, 2014)

Also might be worth throwing in some different cardio your body may be getting used to doing same cardio all the time,I try to mix mine up all the time so I don't get to good at any particular type of cardio


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## TheStarkFactor (Mar 12, 2013)

Peace frog said:


> Also might be worth throwing in some different cardio your body may be getting used to doing same cardio all the time,I try to mix mine up all the time so I don't get to good at any particular type of cardio


Thanks for the replies.

I generally do interval training on the treadmill. What other cardio do you recommend?

Still not sure what to do about my calories, I might go crazy and knock them down to something like 1950 for a week, along with mixing up the cardio and assess in a week?


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## saxondale (Nov 11, 2012)

TheStarkFactor said:


> So we think 2100 is too much? Thing is I still tend to feel hungry even at this level.
> 
> Anyway .... That's split, 40P, 40C and 20F.
> 
> ...


oh heck yeah 2100 is too much, drop it to 1600 and see if that moves things along (make sure its a good 1600 too no bananas, peanut butter or granola)

edit - just seen last post 1950 is still to many


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## TheStarkFactor (Mar 12, 2013)

saxondale said:


> oh heck yeah 2100 is too much, drop it to 1600 and see if that moves things along (make sure its a good 1600 too no bananas, peanut butter or granola)
> 
> edit - just seen last post 1950 is still to many


Whoa, lol, 1600 is even below my BMR. Sure that's a good idea?

Happy to cut out the granola and peanut butter, but no banana?


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## saxondale (Nov 11, 2012)

bananas are like jacket potato, you think they`re good for you, but they`re not


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## Peace frog (Jul 2, 2014)

TheStarkFactor said:


> Thanks for the replies.
> 
> I generally do interval training on the treadmill. What other cardio do you recommend?
> 
> Still not sure what to do about my calories, I might go crazy and knock them down to something like 1950 for a week, along with mixing up the cardio and assess in a week?


I rotate between intervals,steady cardio(1 hour uphill treadmill walking) same with bike sometimes sprint sometimes long and steady occasionally cross trainer.

I just treat it like weights really throwing in different stuff now and then to shock my body


----------



## TheStarkFactor (Mar 12, 2013)

saxondale said:


> bananas are like jacket potato, you think they`re good for you, but they`re not


Really? I never knew that.

So you think 1600 is okay, even below BMR? Ideally I don't want to lose any muscle in the process as I don't have much in the first place lol.

So in terms of diet, the whey protein, porridge, tuna/cous cous is all okay?


----------



## TheStarkFactor (Mar 12, 2013)

Peace frog said:


> I rotate between intervals,steady cardio(1 hour uphill treadmill walking) same with bike sometimes sprint sometimes long and steady occasionally cross trainer.
> 
> I just treat it like weights really throwing in different stuff now and then to shock my body


I'll look at mixing the cardio up a little, though I am a treadmill whore, but might need to break that addiction.

When you do the 1 hour long walk on the treadmill, what incline and speed is that at?

How long are your interval sessions?


----------



## saxondale (Nov 11, 2012)

TheStarkFactor said:


> Really? I never knew that.
> 
> So you think 1600 is okay, even below BMR? Ideally I don't want to lose any muscle in the process as I don't have much in the first place lol.
> 
> So in terms of diet, the whey protein, porridge, tuna/cous cous is all okay?


you`ll not loose muscle mate.

loose the protein, eat real food or use the protein for convenience, look at your sugar and salt intake too


----------



## TheStarkFactor (Mar 12, 2013)

saxondale said:


> you`ll not loose muscle mate.
> 
> loose the protein, eat real food or use the protein for convenience, look at your sugar and salt intake too


I'll take a look at the diet again this week and I'm willing to drop the calories to see how I get on, bearing in mind I do 3x days cardio and 3x days weight, you're still sure 1600 wouldn't be too low mate with all the exercise?

Sorry for all the questions - it's difficult sometimes when you're doing this on your own.


----------



## saxondale (Nov 11, 2012)

TheStarkFactor said:


> I'll take a look at the diet again this week and I'm willing to drop the calories to see how I get on, bearing in mind I do 3x days cardio and 3x days weight, you're still sure 1600 wouldn't be too low mate with all the exercise?
> 
> Sorry for all the questions - it's difficult sometimes when you're doing this on your own.


dont worry, people tend to under estimate their food and over estimate their cardio.

i`ll bet your simply not working as hard as you think you are.


----------



## TheStarkFactor (Mar 12, 2013)

Thanks mate, well it's worth a shot and in theory I should notice a difference in a week or two?


----------



## Peace frog (Jul 2, 2014)

TheStarkFactor said:


> I'll look at mixing the cardio up a little, though I am a treadmill whore, but might need to break that addiction.
> 
> When you do the 1 hour long walk on the treadmill, what incline and speed is that at?
> 
> How long are your interval sessions?


When I do steady cardio I'll do an hour at around 10 incline and a steady 3.5mph

My interval sessions are half hour,sometimes I throw in fasted early morning cardio as well,I found that best for cutting fat but I only ever do steady cardio or a 30 minute jog on slight incline fasted as I find fasted intervals too much


----------



## saxondale (Nov 11, 2012)

TheStarkFactor said:


> Thanks mate, well it's worth a shot and in theory I should notice a difference in a week or two?


yeah

if it dont kill ya first

not srs


----------



## gradziol (Feb 21, 2014)

How u training looks like?

How ur diet looks like?

What do u want to achieve? Do u just want to be skinny or do u want to gain some muscles?


----------



## TheStarkFactor (Mar 12, 2013)

Peace frog said:


> When I do steady cardio I'll do an hour at around 10 incline and a steady 3.5mph
> 
> My interval sessions are half hour,sometimes I throw in fasted early morning cardio as well,I found that best for cutting fat but I only ever do steady cardio or a 30 minute jog on slight incline fasted as I find fasted intervals too much


I can't do fasted cardio at all unfortunately due to work, so it has to be on an evening or afternoon at weekends.

Is that 3.5K/H or 3.5MPH on the treadmill? I'll give it a bash tomorrow night. Then I'll switch between steady state and interval training.



saxondale said:


> yeah
> 
> if it dont kill ya first
> 
> not srs


Ha. I reckon the worst thing will be that I will be hungry!


----------



## TheStarkFactor (Mar 12, 2013)

gradziol said:


> How u training looks like?
> 
> How ur diet looks like?
> 
> What do u want to achieve? Do u just want to be skinny or do u want to gain some muscles?


Training is stronglifts, with cardio, diet is fairly decent, I track all my calories and stick to the macros, I want to be lean, with some decent muscle, I'd settle for a Tom Daley look. (No wise cracks!)


----------



## andyhuggins (Nov 21, 2008)

TheStarkFactor said:


> Hey,
> 
> I've been weight lifting and doing cardio now for around three months and I've lost two stone in the process.
> 
> ...


Firstly mate, congrats on the tremendous weight lose :thumb: Secondly just keep it up although the weight lose will slow over time. Then when you feel ready start to alter your training and diet to suit you.


----------



## saxondale (Nov 11, 2012)

TheStarkFactor said:


> I can't do fasted cardio at all unfortunately due to work, so it has to be on an evening or afternoon at weekends.
> 
> Is that 3.5K/H or 3.5MPH on the treadmill? I'll give it a bash tomorrow night. Then I'll switch between steady state and interval training.
> 
> Ha. I reckon the worst thing will be that I will be hungry!


thats when willpower comes in mate, that and an understanding partner.

its worth it though, once you are lean you can bulk and cut and slowly you`ll see the change your after, taken me 2 years of solid graft but now i`m happy with the way I look


----------



## TheStarkFactor (Mar 12, 2013)

saxondale said:


> thats when willpower comes in mate, that and an understanding partner.
> 
> its worth it though, once you are lean you can bulk and cut and slowly you`ll see the change your after, taken me 2 years of solid graft but now i`m happy with the way I look


I've got plenty of will power, so that shouldn't be a problem, I just don't want to be a skinny undefined runt and at the same time I can't stand the amount BF%.


----------



## Peace frog (Jul 2, 2014)

TheStarkFactor said:


> I can't do fasted cardio at all unfortunately due to work, so it has to be on an evening or afternoon at weekends.
> 
> Is that 3.5K/H or 3.5MPH on the treadmill? I'll give it a bash tomorrow night. Then I'll switch between steady state and interval training.
> 
> Ha. I reckon the worst thing will be that I will be hungry!


Mph mate


----------



## gradziol (Feb 21, 2014)

TheStarkFactor said:


> I've got plenty of will power, so that shouldn't be a problem, I just don't want to be a skinny undefined runt and at the same time I can't stand the amount BF%.


U have been fat for some time, now u will be skinny for some time before u bulk up, easy  Sorry mate but getting ur dream body doesn't happen overnight.

I would continue to cut if I were u then, when u around 10% bf (yes u will look skinny at that point, but just for some time) gradually add carbs, reduce some cardio and watch ur body response.

U can add some creatine and other supplements at that point to help u build muscles.

What r ur macros, how exactly traning looks like, how much cardio do u do?

U r defo doing something right (seeing a pics) but it is always a space for improvement


----------



## TheStarkFactor (Mar 12, 2013)

Peace frog said:


> Mph mate


Thanks man, will try it tonight.



gradziol said:


> U have been fat for some time, now u will be skinny for some time before u bulk up, easy  Sorry mate but getting ur dream body doesn't happen overnight.
> 
> I would continue to cut if I were u then, when u around 10% bf (yes u will look skinny at that point, but just for some time) gradually add carbs, reduce some cardio and watch ur body response.
> 
> ...


Yeah, I know it's going to take time, I guess I feel a bit demovitated because I've been going almost six months and I'm still not at a point I feel able to bulk and start building mass.

I'm going to continue with a cut, I'll give 1600 - 1700 calories a shot this next week and see how I get on. Marcos are 40P, 35C, 25F.

I do stronglifts, 5x5, and two to three days cardio, but going to up the intensity/duration of the cardio to see how I get on.


----------



## gradziol (Feb 21, 2014)

TheStarkFactor said:


> Thanks man, will try it tonight.
> 
> Yeah, I know it's going to take time, I guess I feel a bit demovitated because I've been going almost six months and I'm still not at a point I feel able to bulk and start building mass.
> 
> ...


Diet looks ok, also if u lift 5x5 is always good plan, can give u awesome relusts for years (remember to deload sometimes, some ppl dont do it and that's when they start to struggle).

I would add cardio daily, start with something like 30 minutes and up it 5 minutes every week. Do fasted cardio (morning) or after workout. If u cant do fasted, dont worry to much, just try to do it few hours after a meal.

What supplementation u on (if any)?


----------



## TheStarkFactor (Mar 12, 2013)

gradziol said:


> Diet looks ok, also if u lift 5x5 is always good plan, can give u awesome relusts for years (remember to deload sometimes, some ppl dont do it and that's when they start to struggle).
> 
> I would add cardio daily, start with something like 30 minutes and up it 5 minutes every week. Do fasted cardio (morning) or after workout. If u cant do fasted, dont worry to much, just try to do it few hours after a meal.
> 
> What supplementation u on (if any)?


I'm starting to struggle with the weight now, especially on deadlift and shoulder press, I think stronglifts suggests trying to lift the weight over three sessions before deloading, if I'm right?

I'll add in 3x days cardio, so exercising in total 6 days out of 7.

I've decide to shoot for 1750 calories, which is still quite low, but not quite 1600 as I was a little nervous about going that low. I have put on some muscle, albeit not a lot, and a fair bit hidden by fat, so I don't want to risk losing it.

Also as I'm only eating 1750 calories it's difficult to eat more than 3/4 meals a day without shooting over whereas before at around 2400/2500 calories I could easily spread out my eating. This a big deal?

Only supplements are Whey Protein and creatine in my PWO.

Edit: Oh and some Quest Protein bars have just landed along with some l-carnitine supplements.

How does this look for today? Assuming hitting all my macros - only need to hit 1750 cals.

8.30AM - Protein Shake + Acetyl L Carnitine (ALCAR) Supp

8.30AM - Glass of Orange Juice

9.30AM - Wholegrain Rolled Oats / Porrige

11.00AM - Quest Protein Bar

1.00pm - Chicken, Tomato & Pasta Meal + Acetyl L Carnitine (ALCAR) Supp

3.00pm - Protein Shake

6.00pm - Workout

7.15pm - Salmon/Tuna Sandwich (Wholemeal Bread) + Acetyl L Carnitine (ALCAR) Supp


----------



## saxondale (Nov 11, 2012)

TheStarkFactor said:


> I'm starting to struggle with the weight now, especially on deadlift and shoulder press, I think stronglifts suggests trying to lift the weight over three sessions before deloading, if I'm right?
> 
> I'll add in 3x days cardio, so exercising in total 6 days out of 7.
> 
> ...


Swop the last sandwich for a meal


----------



## TheStarkFactor (Mar 12, 2013)

saxondale said:


> Swop the last sandwich for a meal


Tuna / Salmon / Chicken with some basmati rice and veg?


----------



## saxondale (Nov 11, 2012)

TheStarkFactor said:


> Tuna / Salmon / Chicken with some basmati rice and veg?


Skip the rice.


----------



## TheStarkFactor (Mar 12, 2013)

saxondale said:


> Skip the rice.


I might not hit my carb macro then plus are you not meant to have carbs PWO?

I've struggled today energy wise on these reduced cals.


----------



## saxondale (Nov 11, 2012)

TheStarkFactor said:


> I might not hit my carb macro then plus are you not meant to have carbs PWO?


You're way over analysing it mate



> I've struggled today energy wise on these reduced cals.


Pah, seriously mate - thats all in your head and the reason half the forum look like they do and the other half keep skipping from one fad diet (excersise) to the next, it doesnt get handed to you on a plate, its hard work and determination that builds better bodies

@banzi put him straight mate

Im avaliable for motivation talks - reasonable rates. Lol


----------



## TheStarkFactor (Mar 12, 2013)

Ha. Well this isn't a fad for me, it's for life, so will take all advice.

If I'm over analysing then I could have rice? lol.

Either way I've taken the advice on board mate, lowered my cals substantially and I'm increasing my cardio intensity.

Am I heading in the right direction?

Might take you up on the motivational talks haha.


----------



## saxondale (Nov 11, 2012)

TheStarkFactor said:


> Ha. Well this isn't a fad for me, it's for life, so will take all advice.
> 
> If I'm over analysing then I could have rice? lol.
> 
> ...


Do that for two weeks, see how you feel, small changes over time are the name of the game

If all else fails take drugs


----------



## TheStarkFactor (Mar 12, 2013)

saxondale said:


> Do that for two weeks, see how you feel, small changes over time are the name of the game
> 
> If all else fails take drugs


I'll report back in two weeks with pics.

No drugs lol.


----------



## gradziol (Feb 21, 2014)

TheStarkFactor said:


> I'm starting to struggle with the weight now, especially on deadlift and shoulder press, I think stronglifts suggests trying to lift the weight over three sessions before deloading, if I'm right?
> 
> I'll add in 3x days cardio, so exercising in total 6 days out of 7.
> 
> ...


1. Spread ur meals a little bit, u have 11 hour window without food. So last meal is just before u go to bed.

2. Orange juice is just sugar, replace it with some more oats and make it one meal (so no 8:30 and 9:30 but one as u wake up)

3. U have most of the proteins from whey which is **** when u cutting mate as whey is predigested and doesnt take that much energy to digest. Leave whey for breakfast and pre workout only.

4. Quest bar - replace it with same meal as 1pm meal (just cook once and split it in half).

5. Preworkout meal is WAY to early mate. Better do it like that:

08:30

11:30

14:30

16:30 pre workout meal (whey and oats)

18:00 workout

19:30 post workout meal (proteins + carbs)

22:00 fish and some fats (EVOO or nuts) - no carbs in last meal.


----------



## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

TheStarkFactor said:


> Ha. Well this isn't a fad for me, it's for life, so will take all advice.
> 
> If I'm over analysing then I could have rice? lol.
> 
> ...


You are jumping around all over the place, take a deep breath, sit down and take heed.

now, eat 4 whole eggs for breakfast and then eat as much chicken fillet and broccoli as you like.

You can also have 3 or 4 teaspoons of peanut butter a day.

Do that for 4 weeks, come back and thank me.


----------



## TheStarkFactor (Mar 12, 2013)

Thanks for the suggestions mate, when you say increase oats, the usual serving size is 40g plus 300ml milk, do you mean just throw in some more oats, so say another 20g or something, up the cals?

Are you saying swap the whey to pre-workout, as I always thought you should take the whey straight after working out?

How does this sound as an example two day split?

08:30 - Whey Protein & 60g Oats + Milk

11:30 - Tuna & Basmati Rice + Veg

14:30 - Tuna & Basmatic Rice + Veg

16:30 - Whey Protein /w Oats

18:00 - Workout

19:30 - Chicken & Pasta

22:00 - Salmon + EVOO

08:30 - Whey Protein & 60g Oats + Milk

11:30 - Chicken & Pasta + Veg

14:30 - Chicken & Pasta + Veg

16:30 - Whey Protein /w Oats

18:00 - Workout

19:30 - Steak & Cous Cous

22:00 - Salmon + EVOO


----------



## saxondale (Nov 11, 2012)

TheStarkFactor said:


> Thanks for the suggestions mate, when you say increase oats, the usual serving size is 40g plus 300ml milk, do you mean just throw in some more oats, so say another 20g or something, up the cals?
> 
> Are you saying swap the whey to pre-workout, as I always thought you should take the whey straight after working out?
> 
> ...


Mate here's what ive eaten today

2 slices of wholemeal toast, butter, marmalade

Bowl salad 50g cheese

2 chicken breast, micro veg

Bowl tuna and tomato (5 mins ago)

Thats it, 5 cups of tea and one coffee.


----------



## TheStarkFactor (Mar 12, 2013)

saxondale said:


> Mate here's what ive eaten today
> 
> 2 slices of wholemeal toast, butter, marmalade
> 
> ...


That's not a lot and I guess quite spread out throughout the day?

Thing is, the above is on target for 1700 calories and I like to plan what I'm having each day, keeps me straight.

I'm not trying to over complicate things, because I'd prefer if they were simple, but everyone has their own take I guess on what to eat, how to eat it and when.


----------



## gradziol (Feb 21, 2014)

TheStarkFactor said:


> Thanks for the suggestions mate, when you say increase oats, the usual serving size is 40g plus 300ml milk, do you mean just throw in some more oats, so say another 20g or something, up the cals?
> 
> Are you saying swap the whey to pre-workout, as I always thought you should take the whey straight after working out?
> 
> ...


Looks ok mate but remove all or at least some of the milk (lactose is sugar). See below how u should spread ur macros.

U dont have to have it straight away mate, dont get urself drugged into believing that u cant go for a **** in the morning without BCAA and protein shake.

U can eat around 30 minutes after workout, easy, it takes hours anyway for amino acid from previous meals during a day to stop feeding ur muscles.

U don't eat often coz u need proteins that often, u do it to keep ur metabolism high. TBH u could have eaten proteins just 3 times a day and still would be fine. But this way ur metabolism would slow down and u don't want it.

Some ppl will advise u to cut all carbs and switch to fat as energy source. IMHO if u r not on steroids it is not the best way and u rly have to know a lot about diet and ur body to use keto diets efficiently and safe for ur muscles anyway.

Stick to:

08:30 - Proteins + Carbs + Fat

11:30 - Proteins + Carbs

14:30 - Proteins + Carbs

16:30 - Proteins + Carbs

18:00 - Workout

19:30 - Proteins + Carbs

22:00 - Proteins + Fats

I am not saying it is the best approach mate but I think is the easiest to stick to and defo works and been there for years. With time u can try carbs cycling, keto etc


----------



## saxondale (Nov 11, 2012)

TheStarkFactor said:


> That's not a lot and I guess quite spread out throughout the day?
> 
> Thing is, the above is on target for 1700 calories and I like to plan what I'm having each day, keeps me straight.
> 
> I'm not trying to over complicate things, because I'd prefer if they were simple, but everyone has their own take I guess on what to eat, how to eat it and when.


Two years ago I would have had that, bacon sandwich mid morning, chip shop tea and a packet of biscuits for supper too.

Even with the worlds smallest portion your still eating 4 main meal a day! See?


----------



## TheStarkFactor (Mar 12, 2013)

gradziol said:


> Looks ok mate but remove all or at least some of the milk (lactose is sugar). See below how u should spread ur macros.
> 
> U dont have to have it straight away mate, dont get urself drugged into believing that u cant go for a **** in the morning without BCAA and protein shake.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the reply mate, do really appreciate the help, how does the below look, for example.....

08:30 - Scrammbled Egg (3/4 eggs) on Wholemeal Toast with Olive Oil Spread

11:30 - Whey Protein + Oats (made with water)

14:30 - Chicken + Pasta + Veg

16:30 - Whey Protein + Oats (made with water)

18:00 - Workout

19:30 - Tuna + Rice

22:00 - Tuna + EVOO

Edit: Is lean mince, with wholemeal spaghetti and sirloin steak okay choice for protein and carbs?


----------



## gradziol (Feb 21, 2014)

TheStarkFactor said:


> Thanks for the reply mate, do really appreciate the help, how does the below look, for example.....
> 
> 08:30 - Scrammbled Egg (3/4 eggs) on Wholemeal Toast with Olive Oil Spread
> 
> ...


It looks ok, I would personally replace meal at 11:30 with same meal as 14:30 (I do it like that, just cook one meal and eat it twice at work). Eggs r perfect for breakfast, egg protein is absorbed rly fast, only question is, how can u squize 3-4 yolks in there? I am 95kg and when I cut I barely can do 2 yolks in the morning (remember that oats have fat as well so u have to add up macros it from all food sources).

Olive Oil spread has probably been next to bottle of oil in its way to ur fridge but u wont find much of it in it. Stick to good quality butter if u have to use something.

Wholemeal toast - it is usually mostly done from white flour with some addition of wholemeal for a colour, not he best carbs source but **** it mate, one carbs source during a day may be little "dirty" and lets face it, we r just human being, we need some pleasure from time to time (and oats with water r not even close to achieve that).

Stick to ur diet, enjoy it, remember ur golas and u will get there 

Now go lift (or to sleep as it is late)!!! :thumbup1:


----------



## TheStarkFactor (Mar 12, 2013)

Thanks mate, really helpful, I do appreciate all the input. Eggs, are medium and according to Myfitness Pal, 4g fat and 6g protein per egg, so only 12g fat in total and I have around 50g to play with I think so didn't think that was too bad?

Unless I'm missing something 

Oh and is sirloin steak and lean mince okay, assuming within macros?


----------



## pooledaniel (May 8, 2013)

TheStarkFactor said:


> Thanks mate, really helpful, I do appreciate all the input. Eggs, are medium and according to Myfitness Pal, 4g fat and 6g protein per egg, so only 12g fat in total and I have around 50g to play with I think so didn't think that was too bad?
> 
> Unless I'm missing something
> 
> Oh and is sirloin steak and lean mince okay, assuming within macros?


Given you've only got two meals in the day with fats in - the yolks are fine. You should be shooting for min 0.8g / kg fat, so if you're getting that from just two meals - they will both need to have a fair bit in.

As for sirloin steak and lean mince - absolutely fine (get 5% lean mince).


----------



## pooledaniel (May 8, 2013)

saxondale said:


> Mate here's what ive eaten today
> 
> 2 slices of wholemeal toast, butter, marmalade
> 
> ...


I really hope this isn't you advising him to eat this little... !


----------



## saxondale (Nov 11, 2012)

pooledaniel said:


> I really hope this isn't you advising him to eat this little... !


There's plenty there for an overweight natty trying to loose fat.


----------



## pooledaniel (May 8, 2013)

saxondale said:


> There's plenty there for an overweight natty trying to loose fat.


I respectfully disagree. I think that's a pretty awful setup if trying to lose fat!


----------



## saxondale (Nov 11, 2012)

pooledaniel said:


> I respectfully disagree. I think that's a pretty awful setup if trying to lose fat!


And what would you suggest?


----------



## pooledaniel (May 8, 2013)

saxondale said:


> And what would you suggest?


The total calories there can't add up to much over 1200. That's low to the point it's completely counterproductive, so as a starting point - I'd be adding a lot more in! Fats consist of 50g cheese and some butter... so what, 30-40g fats tops? Far too low IMO, especially if natural. I'd start with ramping up fats to around 0.8g / KG bodyweight, from blend of nuts + seeds, oils, oily fish, avocado etc. Protein wise I'd split the two chicken breasts into separate meals, and add a whey shake after the gym. I'd ditch the toast and marmalade completely, and get some decent carbs in from oats / sweet potato / mixed grain / rice etc, taken in pre/post workout.

I realise my position is quite different to OPs as I've got a fair bit more size, but still - same principles apply; cutting doesn't mean starving yourself.


----------



## saxondale (Nov 11, 2012)

pooledaniel said:


> The total calories there can't add up to much over 1200. That's low to the point it's completely counterproductive, so as a starting point - I'd be adding a lot more in! Fats consist of 50g cheese and some butter... so what, 30-40g fats tops? Far too low IMO, especially if natural. I'd start with ramping up fats to around 0.8g / KG bodyweight, from blend of nuts + seeds, oils, oily fish, avocado etc. Protein wise I'd split the two chicken breasts into separate meals, and add a whey shake after the gym. I'd ditch the toast and marmalade completely, and get some decent carbs in from oats / sweet potato / mixed grain / rice etc, taken in pre/post workout.
> 
> I realise my position is quite different to OPs as I've got a fair bit more size, but still - same principles apply; cutting doesn't mean starving yourself.


i agree, the point I was making was he is eating a lot more than he thinks he is.


----------



## TheStarkFactor (Mar 12, 2013)

Well, I appreciate all the help and advice, I've been tracking my calories daily on MyFitnessPal and I've been aiming for between 1700 and 1800.

I've increased the amount of cardio and mixed it up a little. Doing 1 hour uphill walks (10% incline at 5.3km) on the treadmill and also interval training.

Progressing with stronglifts and current stats are:

62.5KG Squat

OH Press 40kg

Deadlift 70kg (struggling with form now at this weight)

Bent Over Row (struggling with form at this weight)

Bench - 45kg

Guess all I can do now is see how I get on over the next couple of weeks and report back. I'll probably fire up some photos in two weeks for you guys to compare to my last ones as it's sometimes difficult to tell when you look yourself.

Easily hitting my protein macro, and usually my fats, but usually under on my carbs, is this the end of the world?

@pooledaniel you suggest 0.8g of fat per kg of weight, this would equate to around 90g of fat. So my macros would probably look like 40P, 40F and 20C .... is this okay on a cut? Low carb but high fat?


----------



## pooledaniel (May 8, 2013)

TheStarkFactor said:


> Well, I appreciate all the help and advice, I've been tracking my calories daily on MyFitnessPal and I've been aiming for between 1700 and 1800.
> 
> I've increased the amount of cardio and mixed it up a little. Doing 1 hour uphill walks (10% incline at 5.3km) on the treadmill and also interval training.
> 
> ...


I thought your weight was around 80kg? I.e. min fats of 64g. I wouldn't say there's a problem with a higher fat approach, but I'd shoot for closer to 70g fat (based on your weight being 80kg ish), and up the carbs slightly.

Give it a few weeks as you say and see how you get on!


----------



## TheStarkFactor (Mar 12, 2013)

Hey. Current weight is 76kg @pooledaniel

It's been five days since the calorie drop and increased cardio so thought I'd pop on the scales to see if there was any change....exactly the same weight, gutted.

Can't see any change in the mirror either.

I know it's only been five days since mixing it up, but I was expecting at least something.


----------



## MrSilver (Aug 4, 2014)

I wouldn't get to hung up on the scales mate!

Five days is a bit of a p!ss in the wind when it comes to noticing visual changes and / or scale changes!

Just keep at it, as long as your lifts are increasing your doing it right! :thumb:


----------



## TheStarkFactor (Mar 12, 2013)

silverzx said:


> I wouldn't get to hung up on the scales mate!
> 
> Five days is a bit of a p!ss in the wind when it comes to noticing visual changes and / or scale changes!
> 
> Just keep at it, as long as your lifts are increasing your doing it right! :thumb:


Just feels like I've been spinning my wheels for ages, so it gets a bit depressing when you bust your ass and don't see any real changes and I'm not even talking about muscle gains, more focused on reducing my bodyfat.

I know five days is too soon to see any new changes, it's a tough mental battle sometimes and you start to doubt everything you're doing. :turned:


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## MrSilver (Aug 4, 2014)

TheStarkFactor said:


> Just feels like I've been spinning my wheels for ages, so it gets a bit depressing when you bust your ass and don't see any real changes and I'm not even talking about muscle gains, more focused on reducing my bodyfat.
> 
> I know five days is too soon to see any new changes, it's a tough mental battle sometimes and you start to doubt everything you're doing. :turned:


That's why you come on here and we tell you to stick at it, eat right, stop being a major pvssy and LIFT MORE.

(not srs about pussy bit). :lol:


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## TheStarkFactor (Mar 12, 2013)

silverzx said:


> That's why you come on here and we tell you to stick at it, eat right, stop being a major pvssy and LIFT MORE.
> 
> (not srs about pussy bit). :lol:


Ha. Probably! 

It's difficult when you train on your own, none of my mates are into weight lifting or the gym, so it's a solo ride for me.

Do my weights at home and cardio at the gym, head down and get on with it.


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## MrSilver (Aug 4, 2014)

TheStarkFactor said:


> Ha. Probably!
> 
> It's difficult when you train on your own, none of my mates are into weight lifting or the gym, so it's a solo ride for me.
> 
> Do my weights at home and cardio at the gym, head down and get on with it.


Loads of my mates are into the gym and regularly see them there but I'd much rather (and try) to keep to myself, have my headphones in and crack on, lift weights then GTFO.

I'm there to lift, not for a social.

If your paying for a gym membership just to do cardio you might as well lift there and make use of a proper squat rack etc?


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## TheStarkFactor (Mar 12, 2013)

silverzx said:


> Loads of my mates are into the gym and regularly see them there but I'd much rather (and try) to keep to myself, have my headphones in and crack on, lift weights then GTFO.
> 
> I'm there to lift, not for a social.
> 
> If your paying for a gym membership just to do cardio you might as well lift there and make use of a proper squat rack etc?


I've got a squat rack and decent bench at home and 120kg weights, so a decent setup and should last me a good while.

I only pay £16 a month for my gym membership, so it's cheap as chips and just around the corner from my work, so handy for cardio, but the weights section isn't great and always busy.


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## MrSilver (Aug 4, 2014)

TheStarkFactor said:


> I've got a squat rack and decent bench at home and 120kg weights, so a decent setup and should last me a good while.
> 
> I only pay £16 a month for my gym membership, so it's cheap as chips and just around the corner from my work, so handy for cardio, but the weights section isn't great and always busy.


Oh right fair play, wish I had a squat rack! No space for it though!

Happy days!

If you haven't got a journal started yet (which I'm 99.9% sure you haven't) then get one up!


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## TheStarkFactor (Mar 12, 2013)

silverzx said:


> Oh right fair play, wish I had a squat rack! No space for it though!
> 
> Happy days!
> 
> If you haven't got a journal started yet (which I'm 99.9% sure you haven't) then get one up!


I'm not sure I 'had' space, more like made space for it lol.

Occupies a third of the living room!

The way I see it, the weights I have, squat rack and bench should last me as n00b for a good six to twelve months. Then by that point I should be pretty confident and able to pick up where I left off but at the gym instead.

A journal sounds like a good idea, is there a specific part of the forum for it?


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## MrSilver (Aug 4, 2014)

TheStarkFactor said:


> I'm not sure I 'had' space, more like made space for it lol.
> 
> Occupies a third of the living room!
> 
> ...


Haha! Fair play!

This is the area you want to put it: http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/member-journals-pictures/


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## TheStarkFactor (Mar 12, 2013)

silverzx said:


> Haha! Fair play!
> 
> This is the area you want to put it: http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/member-journals-pictures/


Thanks man, I'll check it out later after work.


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## TheStarkFactor (Mar 12, 2013)

Thinking about the fat loss/cutting, when do you think I should weigh myself next and look at body composition in the mirror?

There must be a point over the next few weeks whereby if my weight hasn't changed and body composition doesn't look any different that I need to evaluate what the hell is going on! lol.

Appreciate five days is too early and I'm being daft beating myself up over it, but there must be a general rule of thumb about when things should change.


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## MrSilver (Aug 4, 2014)

TheStarkFactor said:


> Thinking about the fat loss/cutting, when do you think I should weigh myself next and look at body composition in the mirror?
> 
> There must be a point over the next few weeks whereby if my weight hasn't changed and body composition doesn't look any different that I need to evaluate what the hell is going on! lol.
> 
> Appreciate five days is too early and I'm being daft beating myself up over it, but there must be a general rule of thumb about when things should change.


I'm not expecting to see any significant changes this side of 2014 with only 3 months left.

Bulk up to the new year and do a cut?

It might not sound fun being slightly unhappy with BF% for another 3-4 months, but in the grand scheme of things it's not long at all.


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## TheStarkFactor (Mar 12, 2013)

silverzx said:


> I'm not expecting to see any significant changes this side of 2014 with only 3 months left.
> 
> Bulk up to the new year and do a cut?
> 
> It might not sound fun being slightly unhappy with BF% for another 3-4 months, but in the grand scheme of things it's not long at all.


I wonder how long it takes to see 1% decrease in bodyfat, or is that a, how long is a piece of string question?

I guess I am trying to find a measure, that I can compare myself to, to see whether I am making progress inline with what is the 'norm'. As I may think I am just spinning my wheels but I might actually be doing well, if that makes any sense at all?

I think I will stick with a cut for at least another four weeks.


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## pooledaniel (May 8, 2013)

TheStarkFactor said:


> I wonder how long it takes to see 1% decrease in bodyfat, or is that a, how long is a piece of string question?
> 
> I guess I am trying to find a measure, that I can compare myself to, to see whether I am making progress inline with what is the 'norm'. As I may think I am just spinning my wheels but I might actually be doing well, if that makes any sense at all?
> 
> I think I will stick with a cut for at least another four weeks.


Quite hard to define a 'norm' for % bodyfat decrease. I'd say weight wise, around 1lb a week should be manageable and sustainable until pretty much all your fat is off. Body fat I'm not really sure if you are carrying quite a bit of excess. I've not got many before/after photos to hand, but the one I do have is below for reference. This was over a period of 10 weeks, going from around 12-15% to somewhere a little below 10%. I guess things will be quicker though the more BF you are carrying.


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## TheStarkFactor (Mar 12, 2013)

pooledaniel said:


> Quite hard to define a 'norm' for % bodyfat decrease. I'd say weight wise, around 1lb a week should be manageable and sustainable until pretty much all your fat is off. Body fat I'm not really sure if you are carrying quite a bit of excess. I've not got many before/after photos to hand, but the one I do have is below for reference. This was over a period of 10 weeks, going from around 12-15% to somewhere a little below 10%. I guess things will be quicker though the more BF you are carrying.
> 
> View attachment 158997


Thanks for the reply mate. @pooledaniel

You had a decent amount of mass as well before you're cut. I know I'll not have anywhere as much mass as a starting point but I'd rather lean out than maintain or risk any more fat gain at the moment.

The problem with my bodyfat is that I am very lean in some area.....upper back, arms, upper chest, then lower chest, stomach and hips are just laden with extra fat, it's just where my body seems to hold it.

It's also very stubborn ....!

In theory then if a 1lb a week is achievable and assuming I'm not gaining much muscle mass then if I weigh my self on Friday then a 'win' would be an 11 stone 11 figure or thereabouts.

Just hope I've made the right decision to continue cutting .... if I could see a visible difference then I'd probably be more confident in my decision. The scales haven't moved in about five to six weeks and I don't think I look any different in the mirror.

Edit: I've just had a read of the 'timed carbs' article by pscarb and I think this might be a great idea for me to try.


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## saxondale (Nov 11, 2012)

TheStarkFactor said:


> Thinking about the fat loss/cutting, when do you think I should weigh myself next and look at body composition in the mirror?
> 
> There must be a point over the next few weeks whereby if my weight hasn't changed and body composition doesn't look any different that I need to evaluate what the hell is going on! lol.
> 
> Appreciate five days is too early and I'm being daft beating myself up over it, but there must be a general rule of thumb about when things should change.


 ten days mate - measure yourself against something fixed, belt hole, shirt collar etc mirror is too subjective, scales to variable, my usual one is my watch slides round my wrist


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## TheStarkFactor (Mar 12, 2013)

saxondale said:


> ten days mate - measure yourself against something fixed, belt hole, shirt collar etc mirror is too subjective, scales to variable, my usual one is my watch slides round my wrist


Thanks for the tip, I'll have to think of something fixed, I've got thin wrists anyway so that won't work! lol.

I'm quite sold on the 'timed carbs' approach as well, but I'll need to have a good think about foods and how this will work for me.

Tonight weight session was a struggle, didn't make my 5x5 on barbell row, finding that one the most hard at the moment, squat, my form is suffering at 65kg and starting to aggravate an old injury, feels like it's been a bad week for me all round.


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## TheStarkFactor (Mar 12, 2013)

Hey.

Thought I'd update the thread. 

I swapped to a very low carb/keto diet eating around 1900 calories a day and increased the cardio, well, it certainly worked I was plateaued at 12 stone, I'm now 11 stone on the nose, though annoyingly still have some really stubborn body fat areas, abs not really visible imo.

I am conscious that I am getting quite small now and I know I need to start looking at increasing calories.

How much each week should I start increasing by? TDEE is around 2300 and I want to see what my body can do on the lowest possible calories, still being a beginner and not wanting to gain much fat.

I was thinking of holding at 2000 calories on non training, cardio only days, and shoot for 2300 calories on weight days, so not to over complicate things. Thoughts?

Also, I was looking at sticking with low carbs/keto, but using timed carbs on my weights days, so dextrose in my PWO shake and then a good portion of carbs with the meal after weights. But sticking to low carbs on non training days, again thoughts?


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## saxondale (Nov 11, 2012)

TheStarkFactor said:


> Hey.
> 
> Thought I'd update the thread.
> 
> ...


Stick at 1900, suppliment with creatine.


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## TheStarkFactor (Mar 12, 2013)

saxondale said:


> Stick at 1900, suppliment with creatine.


Hi, my morning and PWO shakes do have creatine currently.

Will I still make n00b gains on such a low cal count?


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## saxondale (Nov 11, 2012)

I looked better the thinner I got


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## TheStarkFactor (Mar 12, 2013)

saxondale said:


> I looked better the thinner I got


Do you think there is much point cycling the calories on the non training days and training days i.e. eat more on non training days or just eat the same amount every day?

I don't want to over complicate things too much until I have to.


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## saxondale (Nov 11, 2012)

TheStarkFactor said:


> Do you think there is much point cycling the calories on the non training days and training days i.e. eat more on non training days or just eat the same amount every day?
> 
> I don't want to over complicate things too much until I have to.


No need imo mate, we're not competing athletes, find what suits you and what you can stick to.


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## TheStarkFactor (Mar 12, 2013)

saxondale said:


> No need imo mate, we're not competing athletes, find what suits you and what you can stick to.


Thanks. I'll probably go for 2000 calories, might eat a bit more on training days, but I won't go crazy, I'll also make sure I get some carbs on training days to help with training and see how I get on over the next month.


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## TheStarkFactor (Mar 12, 2013)

Oh before I forget, what is a fairly low cal, preworkout carb that I can take to help with training?

I'm conscious on keto that I will have very little carbs in my system before lifting, and I'd like to take something before a session to help.


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## saxondale (Nov 11, 2012)

@Ultrasonic- thats his area mate.


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## TheStarkFactor (Mar 12, 2013)

saxondale said:


> @Ultrasonic- thats his area mate.


Thanks mate.

Do you think I should maintain the cardio at 2x sessions of LISS per week, or look at reducing that if I am trying to put on a bit of mass, especially considering the low calories, or just stick with things for another month?


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## saxondale (Nov 11, 2012)

Another month, add creatine in tablet form, increase food slowly,, pretty much what I'm planning once lost holiday bread basket stomach


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## TheStarkFactor (Mar 12, 2013)

saxondale said:


> Another month, add creatine in tablet form, increase food slowly,, pretty much what I'm planning once lost holiday bread basket stomach


Any benefit of tablet over powder?

Would a banana suffice pre-workout?


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