# New method of using PEG-MGF & IGF-1 LR3



## ReRaise

I found this on Muscular Development forum. Looks very interesting, anyone have any thoughts on this, PScarb?:

new method of using PEG-MGF & IGF-1 LR3

Proliferation and Differentiation. What do these two words mean, how do these processes promote muscle growth, and how do we optimize them through the use of PEG-MGF and IGF-1? Please allow me to break this down into its most simple form. MGF is the hormone responsible for expanding our pool of stem cells. The expansion of these cells is what's known as proliferation. Proliferation is the 1st step in the process of forming new muscle cells. Once these stems cells have recieved the message to proliferate through the actions of MGF, what type of cells they become, whether muscle or otherwise, depends on the message they later recieve from other hormones.

IGF-1 is what's know as a differentiator. Differentiation is the process responsible for turning immature stem cells into a defined cell type. When a stem cell is exposed to the actions of IGF-1, the cell type created is a muscle cell. However, it is very important to note that each of these processes must take place at the correct time. If one process is begun before the other has finished its work, either the entire process is short-circuited, or partial results are achieved. When a muscle(s) is exposed to stress (such as weight training), it's first response is to produce localized MGF. MGF is produced only in the muscle, not in the liver like GH mediated IGF-1 production. After training, It is vital that MGF be allowed to fully perform its function of proliferation before IGF-1 is introduced into the system. Otherwise, the inhibitory actions IGF1 will immediately halt the proliferation process and reduce the total number of stem cells available for differentiation into muscle cells. In other words, introducing IGF-1 at the wrong time will limit our rate of muscle growth.

In the past, the typical maner of administering PEG MGF and IGF-1 would be to use 200-300 mg of PEG-MGF immediately post-workout 2X weekly, followed by an injection of IGF-1 the other 5 days per week. In principle this theory is sound, as the PEG-MGF will expand the number of available stem cells, which can then subsequently be differentiated by IGF-1 the following day. However, there are 3 significant problems with this method of use. For one, since PEG-MGF is typically injected only 2 X per week, the BB'r is usually going to choose to inject it after training the bodyparts he most wants to improve, but what happens if he also trains a bodypart on the days he adminsters IGF-1? Being that IGF-1 is typicallly administered on the days PEG-MGF isn't (which is usually 5 days per week), it is highly likley that the BB'r is going to be training on at least some of the days he adminsters IGF-1. That means that on those days, the growth process involving these growth factors will be short-circuited, due to the inhibitory actions of exogenous IGF-1, and the end result will be less than optimal muscle growth.

The second issue which arises due to the current pattern of use, is that by using PEG-MGF on non-consecutive days 2X per week, the proliferation process will always be cut short due to the constant interloping of exogenous IGF-1. Because of this, the number of available stem cell will never grow very large and the potential for differenetiation will remain limited. The 3rd issue is in regards to PEG-MGF dosing....it is too light. It is now proposed that using 2 mg per week is much closer to the ideal dosage than the commonly prescribed 400 mg per week. If we use prior research as a gauage for determining proper dosing, it would point to our current dosing guidelines as being inadequate. It is a certainty that higher dosages of PEG-MGF are necessary in order to maximize stem cell proliferation. Although user experiences in this dosing range are currently minimal, what has been witnessed does appear to confirm this. In addition, the proposal is scientifically sound.

Now that I have explained the logic for why the older methods of administration are believed to be flawed in their approach, I will go over how to implement the new method of administration. The PEG-MGF molecule is always used over standard MGF, as MGF has a very short active life, being only minutes in length, while PEG-MGF will stay active for days. This enables the PEG version to deliver a much more pronounced effect. It is also important to remember that the PEG attachment does not alter the effects of the MGF molecule. The PEG attachment acts purely to extend its duration of action. As for what form of IGF-1 should be chosen, I believe IGF-1 LR3 is the superior choice only because of its greatly extended active life, which is about 24 hours in length. DES IGF-1 is a very potent form of IGF-1, being about 4X as potent as IGF-1 LR3 on a mcg basis, but its active life is only about 20 minutes. So, unless one was willing and able to administer DES many times per day, LR3 remains the better option for whole-body growth. DES is superior for site enhancment and will also deliver systematic benefits, but when it comes to a single daily injection, DES cannot trump LR3 when it comes to its whole-body benefits.

In contrast to most other injectable drugs, PEG-MGF cannot be administered with a singular inject. Several micro-injects must be used because even though PEG-MGF is systematic in its effects, the injected muscle will still recieve a greater amount of benefit. Why? While both steroid esters and the PEG attachemnt serve primarily to extend the active life of the steroid, there are critical differences between the two. With esterfied AAS, the ester must first be cleaved from the steroid before it is able to attach to the AR and cause muscle growth. This is why esterfied steroids do not cause site growth (although some users think they do due to the inflammation and subsqeuent swelling which occurs), as the steroid will already have entered circulation and become systemtaic prior to the ester being cleaved from the steroid molecule. However, unlike AAS, the PEG portion of the drug does not need to be cleaved off before it is able to attach to its receptor site and deliver its message. Also unlike AAS, the MGF molecule (whether it is MGF or PEG-MGF) communicates through cell to cell interaction. Once the PEG-MGF comes in contact with a muscle cell (such as during an injection), the affected muscle cell will relay the same signal to the adjoining muscle cells. More so, this signal will eventually stop being passed along to adjoining cells, making a single inject unsuitable for treating the entire muscle.

Another characteristic of PEG-MGF, which plays a role in the way it is administered, is the fact that it causes a disproportionate degree of muscle growth in the injected muscle, compared to the rest of the body. However, with PEG-MGF being systematic in nature, one might ask why this happens, being that the compound will eventually spread around to the entire body anyway. This is a question I would have to research, so I cannot answer it right now. Still, I speculate that there may be 3 reasons for this. For one, the injected muscle is directly exposed to the entire amount of the drug on a first come basis. Two, the compound will immediately begin attaching to receptor sites as soon as it is injected, likley using up a substantial portion of the drug before it has a chance to become systematic. Three, due to the micro-injection technique, which is explained below, the entire muscle is exposed to the actions of the drug in large quantities.

Below I will lay out the micro-injection technique. It is a pain in the ass to be sure, but due to the use of 30-31g. insulin needles, this process is made much more tolerable. The micro-injection process involves injecting a small portion of the drug into multiple locations within the same muscle. In the case of smaller bodyparts, this can be as many as 14-16 injections, split bi-laterally. In larger bodyparts, 20 injections split bilaterally is more appropriate. Remember, MGF communicates its actions cell to cell, so this micro-injection technique must be incorporated into one's protocol if optimal results are desired. Using a small amount of injections will drastically limit the amount ofuscle cells which are exposed to the actions of the MGF...and a single injection will severely limit the drug's ability to turn on stem cell proliferation. Now, before anyone is turned away by the sheer volume of injections, it should be noted that this only needs to be performed twice weekly. In addition, the use of 30-31g. 1/2 inch insulin pins reduces scar tissue build-up to less than what would be experienced with just a couple injections using a 22 g. needle. the pain factor is almost a non-issue, as it should be near painless. Lastly, this only needs to be performed for 4 weeks, after which point MGF injections cease and are then followed by a single sub-q IGF-1 LR3 injection per day for the next 4 weeks. It is up to the individual if they want to repeat the program after its conclusion.

Here is an example of how one might target their chest with this program:

*Weeks 1-4 *


*Day #1 (post-workout):*
Inject 1 mg of PEG-MGF into the pecs. Split this 1 mg up into twenty 50 mcg injections and place 10 injects on the right side of the chest, followed by 10 injects in the left side of the chest. Make sure each injection is placed fairly evenly apart. Use a 30-31g. 1/2 inch syringe.

*Day #2 (about 3-4 days after day 1): *
Same as above.

*Weeks 5-8*


*Days 1-28:*
IGF-1 LR3 @ 100 mcg once daily


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## massiccio

ouch!


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## ReRaise

That's what i thought at first but:

*
"Now, before anyone is turned away by the sheer volume of injections, it should be noted that this only needs to be performed twice weekly. In addition, the use of 30-31g. 1/2 inch insulin pins reduces scar tissue build-up to less than what would be experienced with just a couple injections using a 22 g. needle. the pain factor is almost a non-issue, as it should be near painless. Lastly, this only needs to be performed for 4 weeks, after which point MGF injections cease and are then followed by a single sub-q IGF-1 LR3 injection per day for the next 4 weeks. It is up to the individual if they want to repeat the program after its conclusion."*

I'm already pinning ghrp2/mod grf 5 times a day IM, and thats with a 29g pin, so the pinning wouldn't bother me. Sounds like this could be a good alternative to the ghrp/ghrh combo for use between AAS cycles.


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## 3752

This is not new really mate Dat has talked about this for some time, I have no tried this method as I have not been using pMGF or IGF-1LR3 that much of late, but it is a great approach and I can certainly see the benefit for it.....I have some pMGF and IGF-1LR3 at home so might try this later this year.


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## ReRaise

I've run IGF LR3 and DES previously and I felt I got more from the LR3 so I will be using it again. I'm tempted to give the above protocol a go, but I think I'd like to read about more people's experience with it, as there's hardly anything out there that I can find.

The ghrp/ghrh 5 times a day is good, but the timing of jabs etc can be a pain at times.

PScarb, could you make any guesses or predictions of how the above protocol would compare to the combination of ghrp/mod grf at saturation dose 3-5 times a day?


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## 3752

ReRaise said:


> I've run IGF LR3 and DES previously and I felt I got more from the LR3 so I will be using it again. I'm tempted to give the above protocol a go, but I think I'd like to read about more people's experience with it, as there's hardly anything out there that I can find.
> 
> The ghrp/ghrh 5 times a day is good, but the timing of jabs etc can be a pain at times.
> 
> PScarb, could you make any guesses or predictions of how the above protocol would compare to the combination of ghrp/mod grf at saturation dose 3-5 times a day?


In my opinion you would get more from the peptides but with not doing this method that is a guess, I will be giving this a go though in the coming weeks whilst prepping as I feel that is the ideal time as everything is spot on......


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## ReRaise

Thank for the input mate. I think I'll try this in the future.


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## hilly

Am using a similar idea to help heal my pec.

Have been dosing mgf Into my torn pec daily for 3 weeks now.

Will be switching to igf next week.

Jane kept the mgf dose mid day away from peptide and growth shots.


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## 19072

anyone tried this method yet?


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## SteamRod

sometimes I wonder does he just make this up.


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## DatBtrue

*For clarification, I did not write that... it is just made up fantasy.*

It appears that Mike Arnold and his interests are responsible.

I have sent the following email to Mike Arnold:

Please remove...

... the article you entitled 
*Dat's New Method of using PEG-MGF & IGF-1 LR3*


or remove my name. You know as well as I that I did not write that. Please reply to this email indicating that you have done that on elite-bodiez, Forbodybuilders and any other place you decided to commit fraud on. In addition please communicate to me the reason the fraud was committed and the names in addition to ergo-pep and Phil Hernon who continue to be involved in this sort of nonsense.

Your prompt attention to this matter is demanded. If I do not receive the courtesy of a reply within a reasonable amount of time I will assume that you and those named have the intention of scamming with my name for commercial purposes and that sort of activity I will not abide.

Later,

-Datbtrue


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## Conscript

Ladies and Gentlemen,

We have been blessed! 

Welcome to the Board Dat! :thumb:


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## DatBtrue

SteamRod said:


> sometimes I wonder does he just make this up.


I forgot to add, "thank you Steam" for having a thinking mind and of course for giving me a pretty good chuckle.


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## 3752

Dat i will remove your name from this thread, thanks for letting us all know.


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## ReRaise

Just want to say, my apologies for starting this thread. If I had known there was any question about the origins of the article I would never have posted it.

Thanks for editing it Pscarb.


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## Mike Arnold

In order to clarify, allow me to set a few things straight. First of all, I did not commit "fraud" with Dat's name, as he suggests....nor is Phil Hernon or Ergopep connected to that article in any way. Here is how the article came to be. A few months back I was on Dat's site and read about his ideas regarding using PEG-MGF & IGF-1. The idea was to cause a massive amount of proliferation through high-dose PEG-MGF administration, followed by IGF-1 use in order to turn the increased number of immature stem cells into fully functioning muscle cells. This is a commonly understood process, although Dat was the first person to publically suggest using these peptides in this fashion.

I was impressed by this idea, as it confirmed what myself and another gentlman had proposed over a year ago in private conversation. Our idea was not identical to what Dat has proposed, but in principle it was the same. However, we did not know if it would actually produce results and no one I personally knew was willing to try it, so we never publically posted the idea. After Dat put up his article, it was further confirmation of what we had been thinking all along.

Therefore, I decided to use Dat's basic idea, but structure the program in my own way. I wrote it out as you see above. However, this was in no way meant to be taken as "fraud" against Dat. In fact, I mentioned Dat's name in the article out of respect alone, as I felt it was right to give credit where credit was due. I never said that Dat wrote the article, nor did I imply he wrote the article. I was only crediting Dat with the basic idea. The bottom line is that Dat misunderstood my intentions. As you can see in his post, he believes I was using his name to lend legitimacy to the article, simply so I could "sell more peptides" for Ergopep, whch is a peptide company I am employed by. This is miles from the truth. What Dat doesn't understand is that I am a salaried employee of Ergopep, with commissions representing a minute amount of my total Ergopep income. More so, the income earned from ErgoPep is just small fraction of my total income, with my primary income supplying the lion's share of what I earn. His proposal that I am "trying to make money off his name by selling more PEG-MGF & LR3", is absurd. It would be comparable to me digging ditches just to earn $5. In other words, even if I had full athuority to use Dat's name to sell peptides, it wouldn't make any damn difference. In reality, I would've preferred to never have put Dat's name in the article to begin with, but I did so purely out of respect for him, as it was his original idea.

Secondly, I do NOT need Dat's name to lend legitimacy to what I say. There are 1000's people all over the web who gladly hear what I have to say and many pay me well for consultations regarding all things BB'ing. I have been a BB'ing coach for 20 years and have amassed a clientele of pro level BB'rs, top national level competitors, and top international competitors. I have appeared as a steroid "expert" (not my words, their's) on international BB'ing radio shows, and serve as a consultant to various authors, coaches, trainers, and others within the industry. Dat's "name" I do not need or want. He is a well respected peptide researcher, but that's where it ends. Peptides involve a "very" small part of what I do. In addition to the above, I am employed by ErgoPep. I gained my employment with ErgoPep through friendly association with the owners & empoyees of the company. After talking, we all thought it would be a good idea for me to come on board. Since I believe in many of the peptides available today, and because I was able to fit this part-time position into my busy schedule, it seemed like great fit. The short article you see in this thread was written purely for fun and not connected To ErgoPep in any way. In reality, the only reason I even posted the article was because the forum I oversee (MD) was getting a bit short on topics at that particular time and I wanted to put something new out there for the guys to talk about.

Obviously, Dat, knowing very little about the situation and jumping to conclusions prior to communicating with me, put up the comment you see in this thread. I have since attempted to contact Dat and explain exactly what you read here, but he has refused all communication. It is an unfortunate situation, although I can understand how he may have misunderstood my intentions. Still, attempting to privately resolve the problem prior to putting up public posts would've been the appropriate thing to do. Dat knew where to reach me, but did not PM me at a single site I frequent, nor did I recieve a single e-mail from him. My only thought at this point is that Dat attempted to contact me at his own website by PM'ing me, but I rarely log onto Dat's site (maybe 4-5 times ever), so I would not have recieved such a PM. More so, after hearing about this and attempting to log onto his website to see if he had indeed sent me a PM, I had been banned from the site and was unable to check my PM's.

The primary point of this post is that I have indeed been misrepresented and have had numerous people come to my defense. Dat has even been contacted by at least one person attempting to explain the situation, but Dat has been steadfast in avoiding all communication. At this point I can only surmise that Dat realizes his intial judgment was incorrect and does not wish to engage in further communication. I have no hard feelings toward Dat and have extended my apologies for any misunderstandings that might have occured, but this situation was handled poorly.


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## dazc

personally cant see its going to do much over a single shot.

I can see whats being said about the logic of the micro inject, and exposing the muscle to it etc, but IMO blood flow will have cleared the peptide from the muscle quickly, it wont stay there for any length of time. a peg peptide with an active life in the days is always going to be largely systemic in its actions IMO.


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## ws0158

what about using this method just on say your right pec to bring up a lagging muscle??


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## Mike Arnold

dazc said:


> personally cant see its going to do much over a single shot.
> 
> I can see whats being said about the logic of the micro inject, and exposing the muscle to it etc, but IMO blood flow will have cleared the peptide from the muscle quickly, it wont stay there for any length of time. a peg peptide with an active life in the days is always going to be largely systemic in its actions IMO.


*You're correct. A "portion" of the PEG-MGF will go systematic quickly, where it will live out the majority of its active life by attaching to random receptor sites. However, we already know that PEG-MGF is effective in helping to bring up a targeted muscle, but one massive injection would not be even close to optimal for bringing up that muscle, especially a large muscle, as much of that muscle's receptor sites would not be exposed to the actions of any PEG-MGF at a concentrated level. When injecting PEG-MGF right into a muscle, the affected area will recieve the MGF signal on a large scale. Therefore, injecting PEG-MGF directly into a muscle will result in a more exagerated effect due to a greater degree of receptor saturation. The portion of the PEG-MGF which goes systematic will not be able to attach to any other muscle with the same degree of saturation, resulting in reduced effects. Remember, the PEG portion of the molecule does not affect the MGF molecule like a steroid ester affects a steroid. With esterfied AAS, the ester will prevent the steroid from attaching to the muscle at the injection site, at least until the ester is cleaved from the steroid. With PEG-MGF, the PEG portion of the molecule does not prevent it from immediately attaching to the available receptor sites and doing its job. Injecting PEG-MGF directly into a muscle will result in the affected area recieving the lion's share of the peptide and its consequent effects. Remember, once MGF attaches to the receptor site, it stays attached to the receptor site...it doesn't just float off after a few minutes, so the only potion of the injected peptide which will go systematic is that portion which was not able to attach to a receptor site...likely due to saturation taking place. *

*
*

*
Additionally, I do not think the PEG-MGF & IGF-1 needs to be administered in 4 week rounds, either. 1 week of PEG-MGF, followed by 1 week of IGF-1 (then repeat) should work just fine. Since most people will train the entire body within one week, this will allow each muscle to be trained once during each round of PEG-MGF and IGF-1 administration, resulting in all muscles being nearly equally affected by both the proliferation & differentiation processes inherent to each peptide. During the IGF-1 weeks, I recommend LR3 for more of a whole body effect, and DES injected into the target muscle multiple times per day for more of a site enhancing effect.*


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## loganator

Mike Arnold said:


> *You're correct. A "portion" of the PEG-MGF will go systematic quickly, where it will live out the majority of its active life by attaching to random receptor sites. However, we already know that PEG-MGF is effective in helping to bring up a targeted muscle, but one massive injection would not be even close to optimal for bringing up that muscle, especially a large muscle, as much of that muscle's receptor sites would not be exposed to the actions of any PEG-MGF at a concentrated level. When injecting PEG-MGF right into a muscle, the affected area will recieve the MGF signal on a large scale. Therefore, injecting PEG-MGF directly into a muscle will result in a more exagerated effect due to a greater degree of receptor saturation. The portion of the PEG-MGF which goes systematic will not be able to attach to any other muscle with the same degree of saturation, resulting in reduced effects. Remember, the PEG portion of the molecule does not affect the MGF molecule like a steroid ester affects a steroid. With esterfied AAS, the ester will prevent the steroid from attaching to the muscle at the injection site, at least until the ester is cleaved from the steroid. With PEG-MGF, the PEG portion of the molecule does not prevent it from immediately attaching to the available receptor sites and doing its job. Injecting PEG-MGF directly into a muscle will result in the affected area recieving the lion's share of the peptide and its consequent effects. Remember, once MGF attaches to the receptor site, it stays attached to the receptor site...it doesn't just float off after a few minutes, so the only potion of the injected peptide which will go systematic is that portion which was not able to attach to a receptor site...likely due to saturation taking place. *
> 
> *
> *
> 
> *
> Additionally, I do not think the PEG-MGF & IGF-1 needs to be administered in 4 week rounds, either. 1 week of PEG-MGF, followed by 1 week of IGF-1 (then repeat) should work just fine. Since most people will train the entire body within one week, this will allow each muscle to be trained once during each round of PEG-MGF and IGF-1 administration, resulting in all muscles being nearly equally affected by both the proliferation & differentiation processes inherent to each peptide. During the IGF-1 weeks, I recommend LR3 for more of a whole body effect, and DES injected into the target muscle multiple times per day for more of a site enhancing effect.*


Seems like a very interesting theory that ....just wondered if you know anyone who has tried it?


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## mr_b

I helped someone use very similar methods about 8 years ago with great success. In particular we used it to promote growth in the calves/legs


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