# Beginning Keto - Fat/Protein ratios



## stoker0nine (Jan 25, 2012)

Morning everyone,

Hope you're all well.

I've been lurking about reading this forum and deciding to join in now.

As the title suggests, i'm about to start the keto diet, so am looking for advice: i've heard different views on the ratios of fat to protein for keto, i've heard 80:20, 70:30 and 60:40.

I've now designed a diet (based on the diet PSCarb designed in the sticky), but my diet is almost 50:50. It's 106g fat and 240g protein - just over 900kcals from each. Is this acceptable, or not? My protein is at around 1.5g per lb bodyweight, and fat at 0.5g per lb, but i'm not sure if the fat is too low?

I use MyFitnessPal to track my foods as it's generally accurate.

I can post my potential diet, if it helps.

A little about me:

I'm not a complete newbie to training; I began lifting weights on a lean-ish bulk when I was a *very* skinny 17 year old, and gained a lot of muscle as well as knowledge on nutrition and training. For several reasons, I stopped lifting weights after about 2 years and other than the odd game of football and bit of kickboxing, I haven't really trained properly since then. I'm 23 now, and have gained quite a lot of fat since 4 years ago, so am looking to cut before bulking again (I can't bare these love handles and tits!).

My stats are as follows:

5ft 10-11ish

196lbs

Roughly 21% BF (last measured over Xmas).

My intentional training plan is as follows:

Typical 4 day split -

Sat: Chest & triceps followed by 30mins moderate intensity cardio (hill speed walking/elliptical, etc.)

Sun: Legs & abs followed by 30mins moderate intensity cardio (hill speed walking/elliptical, etc.)

Mon: 1 hour moderate intensity cardio (hill speed walking/elliptical, etc.)

Tues: Back & biceps followed by 30mins moderate intensity cardio (hill speed walking/elliptical, etc.)

Wed: Shoulders & abs followed by 30mins moderate intensity cardio (hill speed walking/elliptical, etc.)

Thurs: 1 hour moderate intensity cardio (hill speed walking/elliptical, etc.)

Fri: Rest

At the moment i'm doing an upper/lower split as I thought a 4 day bodypart split may be too intense to immediately begin with after 4 years off, but i'm ready to make the switch next week as I begin this diet.

Any advice here greatly appreciated.

Regards,

Stoker.


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## Tassotti (Feb 27, 2011)

You want 70:30 mate F


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## stoker0nine (Jan 25, 2012)

Hi Tassotti, thanks for your email.

That was the ratio I was aiming for, but am struggling to reach it. My protein intake would come down to around 1g per lb bodyweight, I reckon. Would that be sufficient?

Would it help if I posted my planned diet?

Cheers,

S.


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## Marrsy86 (Dec 13, 2011)

stoker0nine said:


> Would it help if I posted my planned diet?


yep


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## Tassotti (Feb 27, 2011)

Marrsy86 said:


> yep


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## stoker0nine (Jan 25, 2012)

Ok here goes (As I said, it's based on the diet PScarb wrote up, so it's almost identical):

Meal 1:

6 whole eggs, 3 x H&B triple strength omega 3, 6, 9 capsules

452kcals 1g carb, 36g fat, 40g protein.

Meal 2:

1 scoop whey (nutrisport 90+) in water, 2 x tablespoons peanut butter

274kcals 5g carbs, 15g fat, 32g protein.

Meal 3:

1 tuna tuna (in water), 2 x tablespoons ground flaxseed, 50g broccoli (probably other greens too, such as green beans and lettuce).

251kcals 7g carbs, 8g fat, 35g protein.

Meal 4:

1 scoop whey (nutrisport 90+) in water, 2 x tablespoons peanut butter

274kcals 5g carbs, 15g fat, 32g protein.

Meal 5:

200g chicken breast fillet, 20g Almonds.

349kcals, 0g carbs, 16g fat, 48g protein.

Meal 6:

200g chicken breast fillet, 20g Almonds.

349kcals, 0g carbs, 16g fat, 48g protein.

Daily totals:

1,949kcals 18g carbs 106 fat 240 protein

Cheers again,

S.


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## andymc88 (Aug 18, 2011)

A think the higher fat would be better I used 50/50 and was fu*ked constantly didnt realise I should have been having more fat in my diet also a make sure it's healthy fats, I ate anything for 4weeks and yes i lost weight bt I think when I ate the healthy fat I looked and felt better just my opinion like


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## Tassotti (Feb 27, 2011)

That looks like Dave Palumbos diet

It's not a keto diet


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## Tassotti (Feb 27, 2011)

Take a look at this thread for meal ideas

http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/food-diet-nutrition-info/140691-keto-expert-tutor-metor-required.html


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## stoker0nine (Jan 25, 2012)

Tassotti said:


> That looks like Dave Palumbos diet
> 
> It's not a keto diet


I realise that I need to increase the fats to make it a keto diet, but how? At the expense of less protein?

What would you suggest I change to make it a keto diet?

I actually thought it was a half-decent diet :huh: lol. You can tell i've never had to cut before!

Cheers,

S.


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## stoker0nine (Jan 25, 2012)

Maybe i'll halve the chicken breasts at meal 5 and 6, and throw in some extra peanut butter?

Not really sure what to do with the other meals to get 70% fat and 30% protein though...

S.


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## bartonz20let (Aug 13, 2010)

Tassotti said:


> That looks like Dave Palumbos diet
> 
> It's not a keto diet


With 18g of carbs a day it will induce ketosis for sure.

OP this might be worth a read http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/keto.htm

Also if your 21% bf your lean mass is around 155lb (exc. fat) so around 1g of protein/lb of lean mass should be ok, so 155g protein and adjust fats to suit.

Personally I have plenty of bacon, cheese and egg to keep the fat high.


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## Tassotti (Feb 27, 2011)

bartonz20let said:


> *With 18g of carbs a day it will induce ketosis for sure.*
> 
> OP this might be worth a read http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/keto.htm
> 
> ...


No it wont, it will induce gluconeogenesis


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## stoker0nine (Jan 25, 2012)

bartonz20let said:


> With 18g of carbs a day it will induce ketosis for sure.
> 
> OP this might be worth a read http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/keto.htm
> 
> ...


bartonz, thanks for your message.

I have read that bodybuilding.com article, and others around there, too.

Ok, maybe i'll revamp the diet so each meal has 25g-30g protein max per meal to total 150g or so per day, and then just add in fats, as you say.

On a side note, you mention cheese and bacon, any particular brands? I *LOVE* cheese, but have kept away from it whenever training because I don't know which kind to get, can you suggest a brand?

Same question for bacon really.

Finally, regarding the 1 meal re-feed, is this a "cheat" meal, or healthy re-feed? I've heard some people gorge on healthy carbs, such as potatoes and pasta, while others have a giant calorie loaded pizza from the takeaway.

Thanks again,

S.


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## stoker0nine (Jan 25, 2012)

bartonz20let said:


> With 18g of carbs a day it will induce ketosis for sure.
> 
> OP this might be worth a read http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/keto.htm
> 
> ...





bartonz20let said:


> With 18g of carbs a day it will induce ketosis for sure.
> 
> OP this might be worth a read http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/keto.htm
> 
> ...


bartonz, thanks for your message.

I have read that article, and others around there, too.

Ok, maybe i'll revamp the diet so each meal has 25g-30g protein max per meal to total 150g or so per day, and then just add in fats, as you say.

On a side note, you mention cheese and bacon, any particular brands? I *LOVE* cheese, but have kept away from it whenever training because I don't know which kind to get, can you suggest a brand?

Same question for bacon really.

Finally, regarding the 1 meal re-feed, is this a "cheat" meal, or healthy re-feed? I've heard some people gorge on healthy carbs, such as potatoes and pasta, while others have a giant calorie loaded pizza from the takeaway.

Thanks again,

S.


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## stoker0nine (Jan 25, 2012)

Tassotti said:


> No it wont, it will induce gluconeogenesis


That's a big word that I don't like the look of. How do I avoid this then?


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## stoker0nine (Jan 25, 2012)

bartonz20let said:


> With 18g of carbs a day it will induce ketosis for sure.
> 
> OP this might be worth a read
> 
> ...





bartonz20let said:


> With 18g of carbs a day it will induce ketosis for sure.
> 
> OP this might be worth a read http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/keto.htm
> 
> ...


bartonz, thanks for your message.

I have read that article, and others around there, too.

Ok, maybe i'll revamp the diet so each meal has 25g-30g protein max per meal to total 150g or so per day, and then just add in fats, as you say.

On a side note, you mention cheese and bacon, any particular brands? I *LOVE* cheese, but have kept away from it whenever training because I don't know which kind to get, can you suggest a brand?

Same question for bacon really.

Finally, regarding the 1 meal re-feed, is this a "cheat" meal, or healthy re-feed? I've heard some people gorge on healthy carbs, such as potatoes and pasta, while others have a giant calorie loaded pizza from the takeaway.

Thanks again,

S.


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## Tassotti (Feb 27, 2011)

stoker0nine said:


> That's a big word that I don't like the look of. How do I avoid this then?


Gluconeogenesis occurs when there is too much protein in the diet and low carbs

The body will be using protein for energy (and eventually muscle) You dont want this.

Having fats at least 65% will induce ketosis so burning fats for energy. You want this


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## stoker0nine (Jan 25, 2012)

Tassotti said:


> Gluconeogenesis occurs when there is too much protein in the diet and low carbs
> 
> The body will be using protein for energy (and eventually muscle) You dont want this.
> 
> Having fats at least 65% will induce ketosis so burning fats for energy. You want this


Fair enough, is this a correct start?



stoker0nine said:


> Maybe i'll halve the chicken breasts at meal 5 and 6, and throw in some extra peanut butter?
> 
> Not really sure what to do with the other meals to get 70% fat and 30% protein though...
> 
> S.


Any other suggestions?

S.


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## bartonz20let (Aug 13, 2010)

I was under the impression that Ketones were a byproduct of gluconeogenesis??

http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/ketones-and-ketosis/metabolism-and-ketosis/

Edit; just to say, i'm not advocating low fat, low carb diets although I am under the impression ketones will be produced from the resulting gluconeogenisis


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## bartonz20let (Aug 13, 2010)

stoker0nine said:


> On a side note, you mention cheese and bacon, any particular brands? I *LOVE* cheese, but have kept away from it whenever training because I don't know which kind to get, can you suggest a brand?
> 
> Same question for bacon really.
> 
> Finally, regarding the 1 meal re-feed, is this a "cheat" meal, or healthy re-feed? I've heard some people gorge on healthy carbs, such as potatoes and pasta, while others have a giant calorie loaded pizza from the takeaway.


Personally I eat cheap-o bacon and cheese, keto diets can be quite pricey as it is, but thats just me.

As for refeeds, its all in the macros, really you don't want hi carb hi fat so i'd advise not having the takeaway but i'm not gona lie and say I don't have KFC.


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## stoker0nine (Jan 25, 2012)

bartonz20let said:


> Personally I eat cheap-o bacon and cheese, keto diets can be quite pricey as it is, but thats just me.
> 
> As for refeeds, its all in the macros, really you don't want hi carb hi fat so i'd advise not having the takeaway but i'm not gona lie and say I don't have KFC.


Damn right it can be expensive!

So RE cheese and bacon, there isn't a particular brand or anything, providing it's low carb?

Ah, in that case, I might have to whip out the big 100g bags of Doritos for my re-feed. I'm a sucka for crisps, they are my downfall. Cheese and crisp sandwiches, mmmmm! :devil2:

Thanks,

Stoker.


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## bartonz20let (Aug 13, 2010)

I eat asda green lable £1 for a pack of bacon  had the odd pack that just fell to bits but when your buying 1kg for £4 you can't really winge.


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## stoker0nine (Jan 25, 2012)

bartonz20let said:


> I eat asda green lable £1 for a pack of bacon  had the odd pack that just fell to bits but when your buying 1kg for £4 you can't really winge.


Yeah fair one I guess.

Another question; i'm currently using Xtend BCAA. Is this allowed on keto? If I remember rightly, 1 serving has about 7g protein, and nothing else, other than glutamine and the usual BCAA formula.

I have 1 serving (2 scoops) during training, and usually 1 scoop at some point during the day with 1litre of water, if for no other reason than it tastes amazing and is just like drinking juice!

Thanks,

S.


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## bartonz20let (Aug 13, 2010)

providing its free of/very low carb it should be good to go.


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## stoker0nine (Jan 25, 2012)

bartonz20let said:


> providing its free of/very low carb it should be good to go.


Oh I do hope so. I find drinking only water the hardest part of dieting.

Xtend BCAA nutrient profile is as follows:

1 serving (2 scoops):

32kcals

1g carbs

0g fat

7g protein

1g sugar

Vitamin B6(as Pyridoxine HCL) 10mg 500%

L-Leucine 3.5g †

L-Glutamine 2.5g †

L-Isoleucine 1.8g †

L-Valine 1.8g †

Citrulline Malate 1g †


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## bartonz20let (Aug 13, 2010)

Diet coke? Pepsi Max?? Coffee with 0carb sweetners??


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## stoker0nine (Jan 25, 2012)

bartonz20let said:


> Diet coke? Pepsi Max?? Coffee with 0carb sweetners??


Yeah I currently drink those, i'm having a pepsi max as we speak (or type) and drink a couple of black coffees a day, I just always miss juice...

Okay, next subject (LOL), I have read a lot about this diet but not a lot in relation to training while on this diet. Should training be the same as bulking, or different? I'm unsure as to whether a lack of carbs should dictate the type of training. Is the training routine I mentioned in my early post acceptable?

Sat: Chest & triceps followed by 30mins moderate intensity cardio (hill speed walking/elliptical, etc.)

Sun: Legs & abs followed by 30mins moderate intensity cardio (hill speed walking/elliptical, etc.)

Mon: 1 hour moderate intensity cardio (hill speed walking/elliptical, etc.)

Tues: Back & biceps followed by 30mins moderate intensity cardio (hill speed walking/elliptical, etc.)

Wed: Shoulders & abs followed by 30mins moderate intensity cardio (hill speed walking/elliptical, etc.)

Thurs: 1 hour moderate intensity cardio (hill speed walking/elliptical, etc.)

Fri: Rest

Cheers,

S.


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## bartonz20let (Aug 13, 2010)

Personally I have not seen a difference in my training, its hard to describe but energy seems not to be quite as high but lasts longer.

If that training plan is working for you mate, stick with it but you if your not already you may find that much cardio hard work (depending on intensity), just seems alot thats all but tbh I walk for a couple of hours a day with no problem.


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## stoker0nine (Jan 25, 2012)

bartonz20let said:


> Personally I have not seen a difference in my training, its hard to describe but energy seems not to be quite as high but lasts longer.
> 
> If that training plan is working for you mate, stick with it but you if your not already you may find that much cardio hard work (depending on intensity), just seems alot thats all but tbh I walk for a couple of hours a day with no problem.


It does look like a lot of work, is that much cardio unnecessary?

The intensity isn't massively high, I do get dripping with sweat by the end (especially the 1 hour sessions) but I could probably hold a conversation while doing it (between lvl 8 -10 on elliptical).

RE weights, as I said i've been doing upper/lower for about 3 weeks since just starting to lift again, but I don't think i'm benefiting from this anymore as it's not as intense (but more frequent) than a body part split - i'm not really getting very sore during the days after training, even though i'm lifting heavy weights (and even increasing weights each session).

4 day split has always worked for me when I was bulking years ago.

Cheers,

S.


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## bartonz20let (Aug 13, 2010)

If your not sore, your just not lifting heavy enough i'd day, have a look at reverse pyramid training, its working really well for me but first sets have to be your max.

I couldnt stand that much cardio in the gym, i'd up the pace and lower the time or i'd just get so frekin bored.


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## JordanJ (Oct 29, 2011)

Maybe have a look at this, see if it offers you anything you don't already now (Read the whole thread    )

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=36497&highlight=keto


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## stoker0nine (Jan 25, 2012)

JordanJ said:


> Maybe have a look at this, see if it offers you anything you don't already now (Read the whole thread    )
> 
> http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=36497&highlight=keto


 Cheers mate i'll take a look.



bartonz20let said:


> If your not sore, your just not lifting heavy enough i'd day, have a look at reverse pyramid training, its working really well for me but first sets have to be your max.
> 
> I couldnt stand that much cardio in the gym, i'd up the pace and lower the time or i'd just get so frekin bored.


I thought it might just be me not lifting intensely enough, but at the gym it's working, i.e. getting a good pump, muscles fatiguing, etc. it's just the following days when I should be sore....i'm not. Maybe it is just time to increase volume.

Yeah cardio is BORING but I tend to just put my iPod on and go off in a daydream.

One of the lads at the gym sits his portable DVD player on the machines while doing cardio haha.

Cheers,

S.


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## stoker0nine (Jan 25, 2012)

Hi all,

Just had another couple of questions regarding the keto diet.

I've begun the diet and tweaked it a little to increase fats (by adding lots of cheese and EVOO mainly!) and now have the correct ratio of P:F.

Firstly, should the PWO shake contain only whey protein? I know carbs shouldn't be consumed, and I know that fat can slow absorption but by not including fats it is going against the Keto principle, or is the PWO shake excluded from this?

Secondly, is creatine advised? I was previously taking Kre-Alkalyn, which I would continue to take if appropriate (although I do fancy trying Creapure, as i've heard good things about it).

Thirdly, regarding the once-a-week re-feed, should this be an all-day thing, or a 1 meal/1hour re-feed? Also, most people seem to have theirs on a Saturday...which is a training day for me, is it still acceptable to re-feed on a training day?

Thanks,

S.


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## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

Tassotti said:


> No it wont, it will induce gluconeogenesis


You don't need to be eating high fat to induce a ketogenic state, it's the amount of carbs in the diet that dictates this. You can still be ketogenic on a protein sparing modified fast (PSMF) which is basically all protein and trace carbs and fat - your body uses bodyfat for the production of ketones.


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## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

anab0lic said:


> A whole day carb up is major overkill


Why is it? It will help reset diet induced drops in Leptin.


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## biglbs (Jan 26, 2012)

I am amazed by the knowledge imparted here,top guys--i have learnt loads too thanks


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

There's some good research suggesting that consuming mostly polyunsaturated fat rather than saturated or monounsaturated fat on a ketogenic diet produces a much deeper and much more stable state of ketosis - is worth a try.

The only thing I would say in respect of this is to make sure to get a decent intake of omega 3 as part of your total polyunsaturated fat intake, as excess omega 6 can partially inhibit lipolysis, especially in combination with higher saturated fats if those are your main two fats.


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## mark22 (Jul 13, 2011)

When I did keto I used coconut oil and milk to get in the fat burning mode, and give me some energy for the day.


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## stoker0nine (Jan 25, 2012)

bayman said:


> Why is it? It will help reset diet induced drops in Leptin.


Good, so a day's carb up is recommended?

Once I finish my workout on a Saturday morning around 10am I will have my whey but also probably eat simple sugars for the rest of the morning (apples, white bread) then return to complex carbs from lunch time onwards.



Dtlv74 said:


> There's some good research suggesting that consuming mostly polyunsaturated fat rather than saturated or monounsaturated fat on a ketogenic diet produces a much deeper and much more stable state of ketosis - is worth a try.
> 
> The only thing I would say in respect of this is to make sure to get a decent intake of omega 3 as part of your total polyunsaturated fat intake, as excess omega 6 can partially inhibit lipolysis, especially in combination with higher saturated fats if those are your main two fats.


Thanks, I have read this one quite a lot so I do have a good multivitamin, plus added omega 3 supplement and plenty of omega 3 eggs. Hopefully this should be enough.



mark22 said:


> When I did keto I used coconut oil and milk to get in the fat burning mode, and give me some energy for the day.


I was a bit concerned with drinking milk, not sure why. Haven't really checked out it's nutrition profile but it seems to be recommended quite a lot.

I've just bought some walnut oil last night, so going to use quite a bit of that. I did see coconut oil and it seems to be recommended a lot, but I don't really like coconut, so with that in mind combined with the fact that I reckon the coconut oil might taste like coconut (i'm clever like that you see, hehe) I didn't bother with it.

I'm starting a blog over in the blog section (obviously) as my diet officially starts today.

I'll link to it later when I get started, so check it out if you're interested.

Cheers,

S.


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## mark22 (Jul 13, 2011)

I meant coconut milk but you won't like it. It's got mct's in which the body uses for energy easily. You can just get mct oil as well.


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