# First steroid cycle... It's not that difficult



## swole troll (Apr 15, 2015)

*In bold is the crucial information although i advise reading entire post*

Due to the amount of people that have messaged me personally regarding first cycle advise or critique my first cycle after having read my 'PCT... It's not that difficult' thread (linked at bottom of page) I thought i'd crank out another simple template to link to those asking me the same question over and over, a lot of the information will carry over from the thread i made on PCT but i'm trying to keep this thread exclusively the cycle part rather than PCT

feel free to post any questions or comments below but bare in mind this is my opinion on what i believe to be correct, just like the PCT thread i made i'm not claiming its gospel I am just advising on the knowledge I have accrued on the topic

hope this helps you guys out :thumb

*OK so to start with you are going to want to have:

* Test enanthate, cypionate or sustanon 3 x 10ml vials (generally dosed 250 - 300mg per ml)

* HCG 3 x 5000iu vials

* Bacteriostatic water x 10ml

* Anastrazole 4 x 30 tablets (dosed at 1mg per tab)

* Tamoxifen 4 x 30 tablets (dosed at 20mg per tab)

* Blue base needle / 23g x 1.25" x 100 (most sellers will dispatch in boxes of 100 and theyre cheap as chips)

* Green base needle / 21g x 1.5" x 100

* Luer lock syringe barrel 2.5ml x 100

* Alcohol injection swabs x 100

OPTIONAL - * Femara 1 x 30 tablets (dosed at 2.5mg per tab)

See bottom of page for keywords*

*why 3 vials of testosterone and how should i dose it?*
typically the first cycle advised to new steroid users is 10-12 weeks and personally i believe 10 weeks to be slightly too little and 12 weeks to use an uneven amount of test so that you will be leaving oil in a punctured vial for a prolonged period of time increasing the risk of contamination so if you do opt for the 12 weeks id probably consider chucking the remainder of test rather than using leftovers to start up your next cycle

i like to advise 15 weeks of medium release esters like test enth, cyp and sust as i find it's around the week 14 mark that gains start to stagnate and given this is your first cycle and will likely yield the most dramatic results assuming diet, training and rest are on point you want to strike a balance between maximising your gains, minimising recovery and side effects

*isnt that too much AI to have on hand, how much will i need on cycle? *
as a guide i advise you to take 0.5mg anastrazole ED and adjust as needed however you will want enough anastrazole to provide 1mg every day of your cycle from day one until the day you start PCT, will you require this amount? highly unlikely but there are exceptions

oestrogen control is the most individual need of a male using AAS, we can safely assume that 500 - 600mg of testosterone for a newer steroid user is ample however the percentage at which that testosterone aromatases we cannot predict

i for example need to take 1mg of anastrazole ED for anything over 500mg of testosterone, some guys this would completely crush their E2 but others require even more AI or sometimes the inclusion of a SERM

you basically need to trial and error your dosages ideally with blood work but its fairly easy to 'feel out' your required dose if you know the signs of both high and low oestrogen

this guide is pretty accurate for sussing out where your levels are at if youre not willing to pay for bloods - http://www.superiormuscle.com/forums/steroid-articles/59096-estrogen-handbook

the reason for having femara (letrozole) on hand is the same for any cycle, this is your silver bullet for gyno and oestrogen related side effects

if youre oestrogen is wildly out of control and you are developing puffy nipples letrozole will blast your E2 down low enough to stop majority of cases in their tracks, the chances of you requiring letrozole on 500mg of testosterone per week is slim to none but as i always say 'it's better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it'

*why anastrazole and not exemestane?*
anyone who knows me on this site knows im a strong proponent of aromasin over arimidex for a whole host of reasons however for new steroid users who do not understand how their body responds to steroids and aromatase inhibitors it is a lot easier to rectify mistakes with anastrazole than it is exemestane

if you push your e2 too low with anastrazole you can rebound it back up fairly quickly and adjust as needed, with exemestane you get no such privilege and you can end up spending a long time waiting for your e2 to rise again which will have a negative impact on lipid profile, joint integrity, mental health, libido and overall gains

*how do i mix and run my HCG? *
you want to pin 500iu twice weekly spaced apart by roughly 3 days, i usually opt for mondays and thursdays

my ratio for mixing i like to use is 1ml of bac water per 5000iu of HCG which results in 10 units (5 small lines on a 1ml insulin syringe) being 500iu of HCG










in regards to mixing and storing see my PCT thread - http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/topic/254358-pct-its-not-that-difficult/?page=1

*how and where do i inject my gear?*
http://www.spotinjections.com/index3.htm

for a first cycle i recommend glutes only, a nice big muscle with decent circulation and low risk of hitting any nerve clusters

the twisting and turning can be a problem for some in which case id advise shooting quads but there is a slightly larger margin for error in regard to hitting nerve clusters and puncturing large veins

as a rough guide you want to imagine a cross separating your glute into 4 quadrants and you are injecting the upper outter quadrant










here is a video on a simple glute injection -






*why do i need tamoxifen for on cycle, i thought i only need this for PCT?*
tamoxifen will bind to the oestrogen receptor at the breast site and be your first plan of attack against uncontrollable gyno sides, much like keeping letrozole on hand you will first resort to tamoxifen if you are unable to control gyno symptoms on cycle on the maximum therapeutic dose of anastrazole

again it is highly unlikely that any of you will even require 1mg of anastrazole ED on just 500mg of test let alone need more than that in the way of SERM or stronger AI but as i mentioned above its always better to have it and not need it rather than need it and not have it

as a brief guide to those highly sensitive to oestrogen

you run your 0.5mg of anastrazole ED on cycle, if you find you are suffering elevated E2 sides then you up the adex to 1mg ED, if are still suffering from early warning signs of gyno (itchy, puffy, sore, sensitive nipples, enlarged areola) then you add in tamoxifen at 20mg ED until symptoms subside, you can then choose to taper off the tamoxifen or stay at this dose and run it right through your cycle and PCT

the effect that tamoxifen has on IGF is largely blown out of proportion and its real world effect on gains is minimal

assuming you are some sort of EXTREMELY oestrogen prone individual and even the above is not sufficient you would then sub in letrozole in the following manner - http://forums.steroid.com/educational-threads/236880-all-you-need-know-about-gyno.html

the above thread is the silver bullet for gyno, the likelihood any of you will require this protocol for just 500 - 600mg of test per week is practically nil, i personally have never known anyone require such an aggressive protocol for a first cycle

*should i use dianabol as a kickstart or should i front load my test?*
neither, this is your first cycle and we want to keep things as simple as possible, that includes managing sides, if we start throwing in compounds like dianabol then adjusting AI and SERM dosing starts to become more complicated as not only do you need to find your dosing for each whilst on dianabol and testosterone but then you also need to readjust once you come off the dianabol

youve spent the last X amount of years building muscle on as little as 30-70mg of test per week, 500mg is more than enough for a first cycle with no bells and whistles

*should i pin my test twice per week for stable bloods?*
unnecessary on the medium chain esters, one 2ml shot per week will keep your levels stable

the only reason to consider pinning twice per week is injection practice but personally i do not advise it

*here is your first cycle layout in an easier to digest layout*

*week 1-15

test e - 2ml / 500mg E7D
arimidex - 0.5mg ED 
HCG - 1000iu (500iu E3D)

3 weeks post final shot of test start pct - *

https://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/topic/254358-pct-its-not-that-difficult/?do=embed

*please see the above 'PCT... it's not that difficult' thread even if you are following a different PCT as there is plenty of valuable information in there for new steroid users*

Keywords:

testosterone enanthate, cypionate and sustanon - test enth, cyp and sust

anastrazole - adex, arimidex

femara - letro, letrozole

human chorionic gonadotrophin - hcg


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## Quackerz (Dec 19, 2015)

@Lorian

This is what I had in mind. Perfect info.

@swole troll

Great post mate, good job.


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## 31205 (Jan 16, 2013)

Great post! Although there's no way I'd be throwing left over gear away!!


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## swole troll (Apr 15, 2015)

sen said:


> Great post! Although there's no way I'd be throwing left over gear away!!


 Its a tough one to call and personally I wouldn't throw it away either

however I do believe the longer you have an open vial laying about the higher the risk of contamination

All comes down to your own judgement really, I just wouldn't want someone reading my advice and keeping a half used vial laying about for 15 - 17 weeks then pinning it and getting an infection (unlikely to happen)

I did aim this thread predominantly at steroid novices that usually start out with the ridiculous notion of 'one cycle to get ahead then ill never use again'

For these people im sure they'll have no qualms ditching half a vial of test and then when they finally do crack and decide 'just one more cutting cycle' hopefully they'll have a better knowledge of these compounds and the potential risks of contamination and they can make their own decision on whether or not to use vials from their previous cycles/blasts


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## 31205 (Jan 16, 2013)

swole troll said:


> Its a tough one to call and personally I wouldn't throw it away either
> 
> however I do believe the longer you have an open vial laying about the higher the risk of contamination
> 
> ...


 Yeah your post was 100% the safest way to do things which is obviously what you wanna promote. Adding maybes, ifs and possiblies (not even a real word?) would just make it complicated which is what a first timer definitely doesn't want.

Is this a sticky or going to be in the near future. I think it needs to be.


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## Quackerz (Dec 19, 2015)

sen said:


> Yeah your post was 100% the safest way to do things which is obviously what you wanna promote. Adding maybes, ifs and possiblies (not even a real word?) would just make it complicated which is what a first timer definitely doesn't want.
> 
> Is this a sticky or going to be in the near future. I think it needs to be.


 I'm hoping they pin it. Just makes it easily accessible to people and saves us a lot of time writing the same cycle out for people over and over again.


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## Deadlift crazy (Apr 6, 2016)

Great post man, will save a lot of time for people and newbs like me looking a donut :whistling:


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## takingnames (Mar 29, 2016)

Great reading, I thought I'd done a good bit of research but you mention a couple of things I hadn't thought of

One question, you suggest running anastrozole at 0.5mg every day while on cycle as a starting guide, a few other places I've read seem to recommend lower dosages of 0.5 or even 0.25 every OTHER day while on cycle, so was wondering what the reason was behind your recommended dosage?


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## Quackerz (Dec 19, 2015)

takingnames said:


> Great reading, I thought I'd done a good bit of research but you mention a couple of things I hadn't thought of
> 
> One question, you suggest running anastrozole at 0.5mg every day while on cycle as a starting guide, a few other places I've read seem to recommend lower dosages of 0.5 or even 0.25 every OTHER day while on cycle, so was wondering what the reason was behind your recommended dosage?


 It says adjust as needed. It is not a dose set in stone. AI doses can differ from person to person. I have been up to 750mg test with 600mg EQ and only needed 0.5mg EoD where some might need 1mg ED. It is all individual and it is best to take a precautionary approach to begin with to avoid any issues, if you feel good at that dose after a month or so try and lower it and see how you feel, if you start to notice any symptoms, itchy nipples for instance then up the AI dose back to where it was to begin with to avoid problems.

As some people on here will tell you, gyno is no joke and surgery for it is best avoided at all costs.


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## Tomahawk (Dec 24, 2014)

This is really good.. but wouldn't it be seen more if it were in the steroid section?


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## Quackerz (Dec 19, 2015)

Tomahawk said:


> This is really good.. but wouldn't it be seen more if it were in the steroid section?


 My thoughts also, still not a sticky yet either 

I have just bookmarked it to link to any newbie thread I find and would suggest others do the same. People should catch on eventually.


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## swole troll (Apr 15, 2015)

takingnames said:


> Great reading, I thought I'd done a good bit of research but you mention a couple of things I hadn't thought of
> 
> One question, you suggest running anastrozole at 0.5mg every day while on cycle as a starting guide, a few other places I've read seem to recommend lower dosages of 0.5 or even 0.25 every OTHER day while on cycle, so was wondering what the reason was behind your recommended dosage?


 you can NEVER give a cookie cutter answer on AI dosing

what i will say though is that at about 50-70mg of test per week and the percentage of which it aromatases requires no AI (this is around what somebody natural produces)

so by taking 700mg of test per week you are taking around 10x that which you would produce naturally (minus ester weight) so guess what happens to oestrogen in a bid to restore hormonal homoeostasis? it shoots up

" From what I have seen, if a man goes over a total testosterone of about 600 ng/dl, he will very likely need an aromatase inhibitor "

source - http://www.peaktestosterone.com/Testosterone_Aromatase_Inhibitors.aspx

to put that into perspective when im cruising on 125mg of testosterone and 500iu HCG per week my test levels are 30 nmol/L which equates to 864 ng/dl i keep my oestradiol at 50 pmol/L (range for men 28.0 - 156.0) by running 6.25mg aromasin ED (1/4 tab)

now this is just at a slightly above range trt dose so imagine what happens to E2 when you start injecting 5-6-7 times that...

again on paper the calculations ive laid out would suggest that everyone requires higher dose AI but in reality its not the case however with this information id say you are better off starting slightly too high and adjusting based on sides rather than starting too low and getting itchy or puffy nipples and freaking out and throwing in all sorts of meds to try and stop it (gyno symptoms are very stressful for most people)

this is also why i suggested anastrazole in the OP as you can rebound your E2 back up if you do take it too low

for the vast majority of people 0.5mg of arimidex is unlikely to flatten your E2 on 500mg of test

"



Fat said:


> Fat said:
> 
> Would running 1mg aden ED effect gains? Don't you need some estrogen?


 not at all, since Arimidex SIGNIFICANTLY INCREASES IGF-1:

just a point, arimidex is better with clomid, as arimidex raises test higher than nolva:

http://www.medibolics.com/ArimidexBo...stosterone.htm

further nolva reduces IGF-1:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11299809

and arimidex increases IGF-1:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11983488

so i favour arimidex over nolva, even if arimidex costs a little more...

and, more importantly, 1mg arimidex will not drop your hormone levels to less than normal:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...centration.png

if you look at the blood levels of oestradiol, they are about the same for MEN and POST MENOPAUSAL women. Any way you look at it,If you have 5 times the hormonal level by your calculation, how is 2.5mg/week adequate when the recommended dose is 7mg/week??

The normal oestrodiol (top range) for men is 200pmol/L. so lets say by your numbers its 5x higher, so 1000pmol/L. now arimidex decreases serum oestrodiol in most studies by 85%, when taken at 1mg/day. So, (1-0.85)x1000=150pmol/L.

So as a result, even by your numbers, when taking the recommended 1mg/day of arimidex (which provides the 85% reduction), you still would have 150pmol/L, and the low end of the reference range is 50pmol/L. Its hardly like your even down at the low end...

"

source - http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/topic/158795-gyno-starting-even-with-adex/


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## swole troll (Apr 15, 2015)

Tomahawk said:


> This is really good.. but wouldn't it be seen more if it were in the steroid section?


@Dark sim @Mingster any chance this thread can be moved to the steroid section?


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## Mogadishu (Aug 29, 2014)

Excellent post sir.


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## Quackerz (Dec 19, 2015)

swole troll said:


> i tried to but it wouldnt let me
> 
> and now it wont let me tag any mods to request it to be moved lol


 I was hoping it could get pinned.


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## DLTBB (Jan 26, 2015)

Quackerz said:


> I was hoping it could get pinned.


 They don't seem to like stickying threads on here, especially in the AAS section.


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## Quackerz (Dec 19, 2015)

DLTBB said:


> They don't seem to like stickying threads on here, especially in the AAS section.


 I noticed, no idea why though, it seems to be really useful information that would benefit a lot of people.


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## gearchange (Mar 19, 2010)

It is a very good guide but not the only way to do things or the way some things should be done in certain circumstances . If there was a newbie section it would be a great place to have it as a basic pointer to the dark side.


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## biglad90 (Oct 20, 2010)

Good post mate, let's hope some new members will read it and take note


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## RUDESTEW (Mar 28, 2015)

Great post by the way but it would be good if the science behind age was brought up for the extremely young guys thinking of jumping in .


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## p_oisin22 (Jun 4, 2012)

Good stuff mate. Curious though you rate arimidex over aromasin? Reasons? Not doubting you just interested for your view on why etc.


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## swole troll (Apr 15, 2015)

p_oisin22 said:


> Good stuff mate. Curious though you rate arimidex over aromasin? Reasons? Not doubting you just interested for your view on why etc.


 in the post i actually state that in all circumstances bar first time steroid users i rate exemestane as the best aromatase inhibitor

" *why anastrazole and not exemestane?*
anyone who knows me on this site knows im a strong proponent of aromasin over arimidex for a whole host of reasons however for new steroid users who do not understand how their body responds to steroids and aromatase inhibitors it is a lot easier to rectify mistakes with anastrazole than it is exemestane

if you push your e2 too low with anastrazole you can rebound it back up fairly quickly and adjust as needed, with exemestane you get no such privilege and you can end up spending a long time waiting for your e2 to rise again which will have a negative impact on lipid profile, joint integrity, mental health, libido and overall gains "

once you have an understanding of your required dose of AI i recommend all steroid users to switch to aromasin for the following reasons:

(copy and paste of a post i made in a previous thread)

"Aromasin hands down

* zero impact on lipids

* suicide inhibitor

* no interaction with tamoxifen

* no oestrogen rebound

Possible downsides

* can take some time for body to start aromatasing enough test to bring e2 up if you tank levels (start low and adjust as needed to avoid this)

* harder to get hold of than arimidex"

you are correct in saying that aromasin is the weakest of the 3rd gen AI's however due to its method of action on aromatase this is largely irrelevant

that and the difference in aromatase reduction between the therapeutic doses of the 3 AI's is minimal

here is another posting i made regarding the difference of strengths between the 3rd generation AI's

"

"in the studies done on women with breast cancer at full therapeutic does theyre all fairly similar in aromatase inhibiting properties

however in men this suppression isnt quite so profound but the strength of each compound remains in the same order in terms of aromatase inhibition so in theory your friend at the gym is right however the amount of difference between the two compounds at therapeutic dose is negligible

the reason id opt for aromasin over arimidex is because A ) it has no effect on lipids which will already be compromised by being on AAS and B ) it is a suicide inhibitor so massively reduces the risk of oestrogen rebound



PMC full text:


Int J Clin Pract. 2007 Dec; 61(12): 2051-2063.

doi: 10.1111/j.1742-1241.2007.01587.x

Copyright/License ►Request permission to reuse





*
Table 1
*

Efficacy of aromatase suppression by three generations of AIs



Drug

Dose

% Inhibition

*First generation*
 
 Aminoglutethimide (1,3)

1 g

91

*Second generation*
 
 Fadrozole (100)

2 mg

82

 Vorozole (5)

1 mg

93

*Third generation*
 
 Letrozole (100,101)

2.5 mg

99

 Anastrozole (100,102)

1 mg

97

 Exemestane (100,103,104)

25 mg

98


AIs, aromatase in

source - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2228389/

"Although aromatase inhibition by anastrozole and letrozole is reported to be close to 100%, administration of these inhibitors to men will not suppress plasma estradiol levels completely. In men third-generation aromatase inhibitors will decrease the mean plasma estradiol/testosterone ratio by 77%"

*NOTE - they say "third-generation aromatase inhibitors will decrease the mean plasma estrdiol/testosterone ration by 77%" they didnt specify which AI as theyre all of such similar strengths of aromatase inhibition and makes little overall difference to plasma estrodiol levels*

source - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3143915/ "

(dont know whats going on with my fonts) Lastly id like to add that the therapeutic dose isnt the be all and end all due to half lives and overall blood serum levels, just because 25mg of aromasin is the therapeutic dose it doesnt mean that if 25mg is not bringing your E2 into range that you cannot double the dose (space it out) and further reduce E2

the same applies to anastrazole and femara however due to the negative effect of these compounds on lipids regardless of overall E2 level its not really advisable to be running x2 - 2.5x the therapeutic dose of these two compounds

at the end of the day its all down to preference, personally id rather do anything i can to avoid further detriment to my lipid profile

sorry to keep copy and pasting my old posts but ive put a lot of this information out there already and i still believe it to be true, so here is another C&P

" Oestrogen control is the most individual need of a male using AAS, we can safely assume that 500mg of testosterone for a newer steroid user is ample however the percentage at which that testosterone aromatases we cannot predict

i for example need to take 1mg of anastrazole ED for anything over 500mg of testosterone, some guys this would completely crush their E2 but others require even more AI or sometimes the inclusion of a SERM

you basically need to trial and error your dosages ideally with blood work but its fairly easy to 'feel out' your required dose if you know the signs of both high and low oestrogen

this guide is pretty accurate for sussing out where your levels are at if youre not willing to pay for bloods - http://www.superiormuscle.com/forums/steroid-articles/59096-estrogen-handbook"

source-

https://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/topic/266695-the-best-ai/?do=embed


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## swole troll (Apr 15, 2015)

RUDESTEW said:


> Great post by the way but it would be good if the science behind age was brought up for the extremely young guys thinking of jumping in .


 I don't think people should jump on too early because of the risk of closing off growth plates prematurely also I feel you should learn the main barbbell lifts and work on proper form before introducing ped's

But in all fairness when someone's ready they're going to start up regardless and if they're reading this thread then all it comes down to is a decision as they have all the info they need in here

I dont condone it im just saying that if people have made up their mind there isn't much I can say to sway it


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## Sphinkter (Apr 10, 2015)

Great post @swole troll lots of useful information. I'll be starting my first cycle this year and already have most of my bits and pieces together, going off what I read here and elsewhere I got aromasin rather than adex for the reasons you mentioned previously (no effects on lipids, suicidal AI).

So my question is: with regards to initial dosing of aromasin, where best to start?

Also for a first timer, what's your view on switching to a cruise/trt dose after cycle? I haven't planned this for definite and i do have all my PCT meds, but if I was getting to the end and knew id be wanting to get back on asap is there any point in putting my body through the stress of recovery just to get straight back on as soon as I'm recovered?


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## swole troll (Apr 15, 2015)

Sphinkter said:


> Great post @swole troll lots of useful information. I'll be starting my first cycle this year and already have most of my bits and pieces together, going off what I read here and elsewhere I got aromasin rather than adex for the reasons you mentioned previously (no effects on lipids, suicidal AI).
> 
> So my question is: with regards to initial dosing of aromasin, where best to start?
> 
> Also for a first timer, what's your view on switching to a cruise/trt dose after cycle? I haven't planned this for definite and i do have all my PCT meds, but if I was getting to the end and knew id be wanting to get back on asap is there any point in putting my body through the stress of recovery just to get straight back on as soon as I'm recovered?


 dose the aromasin 12.5mg EOD rather than ED, if you run into sides just up the dose to ED

like i keep saying aromasin is the superior 3rd gen AI i just feel that anastrazole is more idiot proof, if youve done your research (ive put most of it in these 'it's not that difficult' threads) you shouldnt have any problems

nothing wrong with staying on after 1st cycle as such

some will disagree but i see it as if blast and cruise or cycle and cruise is an inevitable outcome for the near future then you may as well not sacrifice the gains you will partially lose coming off and going through PCT

just make sure youre getting your bloods done and not taking the p1ss with dosing (especially on the cruises)

EDIT - to clarify on my stance on staying on vs pct: I think if you are cycling once or twice per year and you are moderate with dosing and have no plans to compete then cycling will probably be the healthier option overall

if you are hoping to compete or are planning to just 'cycle, pct, time off, repeat' over and over then youd be better off just running a trt dose in between cycles

you can build an above natural physique and strength base with cycling however to be truly competitive it is in my opinion that youd be best off never coming off

and bear in mind that no matter which route you take it is highly likely if not certain that one day you will end up requiring testosterone replacement therapy


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## Sphinkter (Apr 10, 2015)

swole troll said:


> dose the aromasin 12.5mg EOD rather than ED, if you run into sides just up the dose to ED
> 
> like i keep saying aromasin is the superior 3rd gen AI i just feel that anastrazole is more idiot proof, if youve done your research (ive put most of it in these 'it's not that difficult' threads) you shouldnt have any problems
> 
> ...


 Yeh I was thinking 250mg e10d for cruise dose? Like I said i might hate it for whatever reason, (pinning, sides, whatever) and just come off altogether but I'd like to have a plan of action either way.


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## swole troll (Apr 15, 2015)

Sphinkter said:


> Yeh I was thinking 250mg e10d for cruise dose? Like I said i might hate it for whatever reason, (pinning, sides, whatever) and just come off altogether but I'd like to have a plan of action either way.


 250mg e10d or 125mg e7d is fine

i pin sub q for cruises to minimize scar tissue

just make sure you get your bloods done prior to blasting or at the very minimum every 6 months

you want to check: you want a full blood screen but your main concerns whilst cruising should be RBC count, oestradiol and lipid profile

take your blood pressure at home once per week, minimize the amount of junk food you eat (should be doing this anyway) do your fvckin cardio! lol (not aimed at you but so many neglect this invaluable aspect of negating possible health risks)


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## Sphinkter (Apr 10, 2015)

swole troll said:


> 250mg e10d or 125mg e7d is fine
> 
> i pin sub q for cruises to minimize scar tissue
> 
> ...


 Never read much about pinning sub q will read into this as well.

i think the needle exchange in town does bloods for free so will be taking advantage of that.

haha I know it's easy done especially when bulking all you want to do is get bigger and it's easy to see how cardio might be detrimental to that. I try to fit in a few HIIT sessions at the end of my sessions, usually manage 2/3 per week - only about 5 minutes a go but fairly high intensity, and I usually go a walk around the estate during lunch a work weather permitting.


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## GCMAX (Dec 31, 2013)

Even though I'm on my first ever cycle I'd like to add something to the injection video. The needle was removed immediately after injection and as you could see test leaked out, instead leave the needle fully in after injection of the test for about 20 seconds or so. The muscle is then saturated and no test will leak out so you get the whole dose and no wastage.


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## Quackerz (Dec 19, 2015)

GCMAX said:


> Even though I'm on my first ever cycle I'd like to add something to the injection video. The needle was removed immediately after injection and as you could see test leaked out, instead leave the needle fully in after injection of the test for about 20 seconds or so. The muscle is then saturated and no test will leak out so you get the whole dose and no wastage.


 Greedy bastard.


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## England123 (May 1, 2016)

Just read this post. Lots of useful information. Just wanted to recap:

The cycle describes that for 15 weeks once weekly 500 test should be taken in one single injection. I have read on other websites that twice weekly 250 should be taken for optimal results (500mg total). What are the thoughts on this?

Besides this, the cycle describes that twice weekly 500iu of HCG is taken per injection.

That's 3 a week in total. There are quite some abbreviations which I am not too familiar with hence why I wanted to check whether my interpretation is correct?


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## andyboro (Oct 1, 2006)

So.... how much tren was it again? :lol:


----------



## England123 (May 1, 2016)

andyboro said:


> So.... how much tren was it again? :lol:


 :confused1:


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## swole troll (Apr 15, 2015)

England123 said:


> Just read this post. Lots of useful information. Just wanted to recap:
> 
> The cycle describes that for 15 weeks once weekly 500 test should be taken in one single injection. I have read on other websites that twice weekly 250 should be taken for optimal results (500mg total). What are the thoughts on this?
> 
> ...


 250mg twice weekly is a redundant approach that offers nothing more than pin practice

the only time id advise splitting medium chain esters into multiple shots per week is when the total ml's of oil are getting high enough that they can cause unnecessary discomfort and potential increase in scar tissue build up ie if you are on 1 gram of test per week it's advisable to inject 2ml twice per week rather than 4ml once per week

you are taking 500mg of medium chain ester (cyp, enth, sust) test per week generally that is 2ml, do it in one shot on mondays

you are injecting 1000iu of HCG per week, if you followed my mixing instructions then that is 10 units, do it in two shots: one on monday, one on thursday

that is a total of 3 shots per week, no more, no less


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## swole troll (Apr 15, 2015)

andyboro said:


> So.... how much tren was it again? :lol:


 you want to run your tren for the full 15 weeks at 0mg EOD


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## England123 (May 1, 2016)

swole troll said:


> 250mg twice weekly is a redundant approach that offers nothing more than pin practice
> 
> the only time id advise splitting medium chain esters into multiple shots per week is when the total ml's of oil are getting high enough that they can cause unnecessary discomfort and potential increase in scar tissue build up ie if you are on 1 gram of test per week it's advisable to inject 2ml twice per week rather than 4ml once per week
> 
> ...


 Thanks for the explanation.


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## biz01 (May 1, 2016)

swole troll said:


> *In bold is the crucial information although i advise reading entire post*
> 
> Due to the amount of people that have messaged me personally regarding first cycle advise or critique my first cycle after having read my 'PCT... It's not that difficult' thread (linked at bottom of page) I thought i'd crank out another simple template to link to those asking me the same question over and over, a lot of the information will carry over from the thread i made on PCT but i'm trying to keep this thread exclusively the cycle part rather than PCT
> 
> ...


 Great info I bet this would help a lot of people..I have just posted a new thread for help as im a newbie...but how does your info work if don't want to inject and only want to take the tablet form :/


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## swole troll (Apr 15, 2015)

biz01 said:


> Great info I bet this would help a lot of people..I have just posted a new thread for help as im a newbie...but how does your info work if don't want to inject and only want to take the tablet form :/


 ok firstly please can you delete the quote if possible?

the OP is a long block of text that fills up a lot of the thread, if you want to ask me a question you can tag me @swole troll

secondly i dont condone the use of oral only cycles

i think theyre more trouble than theyre worth as a standalone and they have more overall detriment to your health when compared to a simple test cycle

i do understand that injecting yourself can seem like a daunting task at first but once you get the first 2-3 shots out the way you realise how easy it really is

that and i dont know one person who started off with an oral only cycle because they were scared of pinning (or any other excuse they use) and then move onto an injectable and say "well my first oral cycle was much better"


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## Quackerz (Dec 19, 2015)

bump


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## DrDarkside (Apr 24, 2016)

swole troll said:


> Luer lock syringe barrel


 Not sure if its ok to source stuff like this surley its not a problem as its not illegal, would these work well? Terumo Luer Lock Syringe 2.5ml x 100

The only problem is that I cannot find the 'Terumo' brand needle in 21g x1.5 but I found one under the BD brand, will it still work on the terumo lock?

I want to minimze the amount of places I order from (delivery).



swole troll said:


> Bacteriostatic water


 Unfortunatley I cannot find this under the same website either.

Cheers for any help


----------



## swole troll (Apr 15, 2015)

DrDarkside said:


> Not sure if its ok to source stuff like this surley its not a problem as its not illegal, would these work well? Terumo Luer Lock Syringe 2.5ml x 100
> 
> The only problem is that I cannot find the 'Terumo' brand needle in 21g x1.5 but I found one under the BD brand, will it still work on the terumo lock?
> 
> ...


 it's fine

some people prefer BD claiming theyre sharper where as i found the opposite to be the case

both are adequate in getting the job done


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## DrDarkside (Apr 24, 2016)

swole troll said:


> it's fine
> 
> some people prefer BD claiming theyre sharper where as i found the opposite to be the case
> 
> both are adequate in getting the job done


 cheers, ah it looks like my second quote didnt come up, where i had written,' Unfortunatley I cannot find this under the same website either.' was in regards to the Bacteriostatic Water.

And just to confirm, the BD pins will work on a Terumo syringe yeah?


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## swole troll (Apr 15, 2015)

DrDarkside said:


> cheers, ah it looks like my second quote didnt come up, where i had written,' Unfortunatley I cannot find this under the same website either.' was in regards to the Bacteriostatic Water.
> 
> And just to confirm, the BD pins will work on a Terumo syringe yeah?


 yes they are compatible

bac water -

http://www.peptidesuk.com/Reconstitution/Bacteriostatic-water


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## DrDarkside (Apr 24, 2016)

swole troll said:


> yes they are compatible
> 
> bac water -
> 
> http://www.peptidesuk.com/Reconstitution/Bacteriostatic-water


 Thanks troll!


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## Sfan44 (Dec 28, 2016)

Hi Swole,

Could you please tell me the purpose of having two needle types (blue and green)?

Where should the hcg be pinned?

Thanks


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## swole troll (Apr 15, 2015)

Sfan44 said:


> Hi Swole,
> 
> Could you please tell me the purpose of having two needle types (blue and green)?
> 
> ...


 you dont 'need' greens and blues but it will make drawing the oil easier with the thicker green (21g), reduce scar tissue by using a fresh needle and make the shot less painful by using the thinner blue (23g)

remember when pushing the needle through the rubber stopper of the vial it does blunt it some

https://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/index.php?app=core&module=system&controller=embed&url=http://imgur.com/gallery/Rh7RY

inject hcg subcutaneously with an insulin syringe

*Abdomen:* Uncover your abdomen. You may give an injection within the following area: below the waist to just above the hip bone and from the side to about 2 inches from the belly button. Avoid the belly button.


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## Raposo (Mar 7, 2016)

I've got a question about exemestano. Is not about the "first cycle" but I think that you, @swole troll can help me.

About exemestane, is necessary that it will be pharma grade, or could be underlab grade? I've never asked me about the quality of the underlab AIs


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## swole troll (Apr 15, 2015)

Raposo said:


> I've got a question about exemestano. Is not about the "first cycle" but I think that you, @swole troll can help me.
> 
> About exemestane, is necessary that it will be pharma grade, or could be underlab grade? I've never asked me about the quality of the underlab AIs


 i prefer pharma with AI's and SERM's however ive not had any problems myself with UGL AI's on the few occasions i have not been able to get pharma


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## Sfan44 (Dec 28, 2016)

Sorry me again..

Regarding HCG; I have mixed 3 vials with 3mls bac water and have stored it in the fridge. I have since read that it only has a shelf life of 8 or so weeks once mixed, even if refrigerated. Is this true? I may have to get more if so..

Cheers


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## swole troll (Apr 15, 2015)

Sfan44 said:


> Sorry me again..
> 
> Regarding HCG; I have mixed 3 vials with 3mls bac water and have stored it in the fridge. I have since read that it only has a shelf life of 8 or so weeks once mixed, even if refrigerated. Is this true? I may have to get more if so..
> 
> Cheers


 Just load insulin syringes with 500iu, cap them and freeze them in a freezer bag

Then e3d take one out the freezer and hold the part of the barrel the ice is in between your thumb and finger and it melts back to liquid within 2 minutes


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## Catch_D (Jul 17, 2017)

Thanks for all the work put into this.. Interesting read indeed! Definitely pinning to my home screen!


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## Pr1me (Jul 29, 2017)

Quick quest,

Recently i spoke to someone and they highlighted that hcg throughout a cycle increases the chances of gyno and that i should leave it for the last 4 weeks of cycle, is there any truth in that? Or would it just be safer to pin it once a week at a 500iu dose?


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## 64rl0 (May 3, 2017)

HCG increases E2 level, so if you use HCG keep E2 in check and adjust your AI accordingly


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## Pr1me (Jul 29, 2017)

64rl0 said:


> HCG increases E2 level, so if you use HCG keep E2 in check and adjust your AI accordingly


 Okay I'll make a note of that. Do you tend to use hcg on every cycle or?


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## swole troll (Apr 15, 2015)

Pr1me said:


> Okay I'll make a note of that. Do you tend to use hcg on every cycle or?


 use it every cycle if:

* you want the fastest possible recovery
* you care about fertility 
* you want to spend the least amount of time feeling like s**t post cycle

thats not to say HCG will ensure all the above but it gives you the best possible chance.

for those that cycle on and off youre a moron not to use it imo

EDIT - and further to your above post run the HCG as i listed, 500iu E3D (or twice weekly if thats easier for you)

as the other poster mentioned you tackle the elevated E2 with an AI, yes youll likely need to increase it for the HCG but youre going to need to adjust it most cycles anyway as dosages and compounds change so might as well get use to variables now


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## Pr1me (Jul 29, 2017)

swole troll said:


> use it every cycle if:
> 
> * you want the fastest possible recovery
> * you care about fertility
> ...


 I definitely want to give myself the best chances to all the above.

I'll probably stick with the 500iu a week, save myself some spots for pinning. And yeah, i got an Al in hand .


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## swole troll (Apr 15, 2015)

Pr1me said:


> I definitely want to give myself the best chances to all the above.
> 
> I'll probably stick with the 500iu a week.


 These 2 sentences contradict one another

It's 500iu twice per week not once

but your call

I just put the information out there, what you do is you're choice


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## LackOfABetterName (Aug 10, 2017)

Pr1me said:


> I definitely want to give myself the best chances to all the above.
> 
> I'll probably stick with the 500iu a week, save myself some spots for pinning. And yeah, i got an Al in hand .


 You should do the 500ui twice a week - Subcutaneous (into the layer of fat under the skin) with a 1" 29g insulin needle into your belly fat, around about an inch away from your belly button - Pinch the fat and inject the needle all the way on an angle (about 45 degrees more or less).

This will give you the best chances to all the above and you won't have to worry about running out of spots for pinning! It's a win/win


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## damn shame (Jan 2, 2015)

Good post however you missed out Tren.


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## Pr1me (Jul 29, 2017)

LackOfABetterName said:


> You should do the 500ui twice a week - Subcutaneous (into the layer of fat under the skin) with a 1" 29g insulin needle into your belly fat, around about an inch away from your belly button - Pinch the fat and inject the needle all the way on an angle (about 45 degrees more or less).
> 
> This will give you the best chances to all the above and you won't have to worry about running out of spots for pinning! It's a win/win


 Thanks for all the info, I'll be ordering some more needles and i should have no problems injecting into belly fat at the moment the way I've been eating lol.


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## Pr1me (Jul 29, 2017)

swole troll said:


> These 2 sentences contradict one another
> 
> It's 500iu twice per week not once
> 
> ...


 I'll pin the 500iu twice a week as you've recommended, if i see any signs of gyno I'll reduce it and increase armidex.

Speaking of armidex, i take that twice a week (0.5) is that enough, I'm always tryna do the smallest doses of everything.


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## Dl5 (Aug 24, 2017)

I'm considering doing a test e cycle I'm 39yrs 5'8 14st bmi 29 I tend to yo yo the gym do few months then few months off but I want to get back stick to it get some gains . So would I be good doing this cycle


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## swole troll (Apr 15, 2015)

Dl5 said:


> I'm considering doing a test e cycle I'm 39yrs 5'8 14st bmi 29 I tend to yo yo the gym do few months then few months off but I want to get back stick to it get some gains . So would I be good doing this cycle


 would it assist in building more muscle in a shorter time frame when combined with a progressive weights regime and proper nutritional plan? yes

do i recommend someone in your circumstance run it? no

and here's why

you're not dedicated by your own admission

you're almost 40 which is when most natural males start to see a 2% annual decrease in testosterone production as is, if you shut yourself down you are going to find it harder than the younger generation to recover so you will lose more of your gains, combine that with your non dedicated attitude toward training and i assume to nutrition also and you will lose all of your gains.

My advice is get on a solid routine with progression in place, monitor your calories and break PB's and gain muscle naturally

all the advice you need is ITT (omit the gear related stuff and apply the rest to yourself)

https://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/topic/299471-stop-looking-for-the-secret-its-not-that-difficult/?do=embed

(


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## Rhinoceros (Mar 24, 2018)

swole troll said:


> dose the aromasin 12.5mg EOD rather than ED, if you run into sides just up the dose to ED
> 
> like i keep saying aromasin is the superior 3rd gen AI i just feel that anastrazole is more idiot proof, if youve done your research (ive put most of it in these 'it's not that difficult' threads) you shouldnt have any problems
> 
> ...


 Sick info from this thread. Is there a second cycle.. it's not that difficult?


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## swole troll (Apr 15, 2015)

Rhinoceros said:


> Sick info from this thread. Is there a second cycle.. it's not that difficult?


 there's no real need for a full thread on it plus where do i draw the line, i could just keep writing them endlessly

you either run the same blast again as you will almost certainly not have milked everything from 500mg test or if like most you feel the need to add something a progression in cycles could be

1. 500mg test

2. 500mg test, 30mg dbol 4 week kickstart

3. 750mg test, 40mg dbol 6 week kickstart

4. 500mg test, 400mg deca

5. 500mg test, 400mg deca, 30mg dbol 4 week kickstart

you get the idea
you just titrate and add and remove things whilst assessing sides along the way

i just used deca and dbol as an example, you could sub deca for EQ or DHB and dbol for anavar or winstrol ect

just progress the dosages and aggressiveness which in terms of gear something like 750mg test and 500mg tren with 50mg anadrol a day would be a very advanced cycle and sure to substantial meat and strength on ANYONE on this forum

then there's insulin, GH, peptides, multi compound cycles

but none of which is really for this thread

ive pushed up to almost 3g before and ample insulin, peptides, MK677 and growth and yea i grew like an absolute weed but it was far more than i needed and the sides were ridiculous both internally and externally

people hate hearing it but after self experimentation i can honestly say the best advice is get as much as you can from as little as you can for as long as you can

even after going to those unnecessary doses i listed above ive reverted back to 800 - 1g cycles and make ample gains whilst feeling much better
do i gain as fast as i did on those excessive cycles? no but im healthier for it and id rather marathon my way to the finish than sprint my way a quarter of the way through life

if you want to more reading on pushing it at a cost to your health (which is very dumb) then have a thumb through this

https://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/topic/310361-how-to-get-huge-in-a-hurry-gains-before-health-and-my-experience/?do=embed


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## Do it big (Apr 24, 2018)

Just started my first cycle on Monday, and this is a great read.

Using test e 300 ew and anavar 75mg ed. Would people recommend upping the dose of test to 500?

Just trying to cut/recomp.


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## orangeandpears (Dec 16, 2017)

Pr1me said:


> I definitely want to give myself the best chances to all the above.
> 
> I'll probably stick with the 500iu a week, save myself some spots for pinning. And yeah, i got an Al in hand .


 you don't pin HCG IM so what are you saving spots for :lol: majority of studys use 1000ui pw so i wouldn't use any less then that

slin pin into belly fat mate


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## orangeandpears (Dec 16, 2017)

Do it big said:


> Just started my first cycle on Monday, and this is a great read.
> 
> Using test e 300 ew and anavar 75mg ed. Would people recommend upping the dose of test to 500?
> 
> Just trying to cut/recomp.


 Why are you cutting on a first cycle? duuuuuuumb :lol: :thumb


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## Do it big (Apr 24, 2018)

It's recomp really. I'm 210 lbs, 5 foot 7, approx 18-19% body fat. Would like to lower body fat but keep around that weight. Continue building strength


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## SubaruSTI (Apr 16, 2018)

Do it big said:


> Just started my first cycle on Monday, and this is a great read.
> 
> Using test e 300 ew and anavar 75mg ed. Would people recommend upping the dose of test to 500?
> 
> Just trying to cut/recomp.


 from what ive read 300mg of test per week is enough but others will say do that every 3.5 to 4 days a week. 75mg ed seems like a decent dose. how have your gains been over the last week or so?


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## swole troll (Apr 15, 2015)

Do it big said:


> It's recomp really. I'm 210 lbs, 5 foot 7, approx 18-19% body fat. Would like to lower body fat but keep around that weight. Continue building strength


 id have cut naturally and accepted the small amount of strength loss (depending on how lean you cut)

then lean bulked using the gear

re your doses they're fine but again i dont agree with a cut or recomp as a first cycle


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## MrSilver (Aug 4, 2014)

@swole troll firstly really nice post mate, wish I'd seen it on my first cycle (which was 500mg Test E / 50mg anavar).

Looking to start second cycle as its been a couple of years since the first and want to run Test E / anavar again for the sake of simplicity (as I didn't react bad to it) and for the low toxicity of anavar compared to other orals such as winstrol.

Based upon previous experience and your post could you confirm this sounds like a viable run? It's a basic Test E cycle with anavar added at the front and back for extra gains.

*Test E & Var Cycle Week 1-15*
Test E 2ml 500mg / E7D *week 1-15.*
Anavar 50mg ED *week 1-4 & 12-15.*
HCG 500iu Mon/Thur *week 1-17.*
Adex 0.5mg ED *week 5-11.*

*PCT Week 18-21 (3 weeks after last Test E jab)*
Clomid 100/50/50/50mg ED *week 18-21.*
Nolva 40/20/20/20mg ED *week 18-21.*

*Extras*
Liv52 for liver protection.
BCAA's drunk throughout cycle.
ALA for joint support throughout cycle.

*Purchaseables*
3 x 10ml 250mg Test E vials
56 x 50mg Anavar
49 x 1mg Adex
35 x 50mg Clomid
35 x 20mg Nolva
4 x 5000iu HCG vials
4 x Sterile vial (for mixing HCG)
1 x 10ml BACS water
100 x 1ml Insulin syringe (for HCG)
100 x Green 21g's
100 x Blue 23g's
200 x Alcohol swabs
100 x 2.5ml Syringe (for pinning)

I've read your PCT thread also but found on 12 week cycle 4 weeks PCT put me right, this being 15 weeks might justify an additional week.

Hows it look to you? Would you add Proviron? I used that last time but doesnt seem to be as raved about as I remember.

Cheers and hopefully it looks like I've done some research.


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## swole troll (Apr 15, 2015)

MrSilver said:


> @swole troll firstly really nice post mate, wish I'd seen it on my first cycle (which was 500mg Test E / 50mg anavar).
> 
> Looking to start second cycle as its been a couple of years since the first and want to run Test E / anavar again for the sake of simplicity (as I didn't react bad to it) and for the low toxicity of anavar compared to other orals such as winstrol.
> 
> ...


 some changes id make

* use the var all in one go, start or end of cycle, which ever you prefer
* switch BCAA's to EAA's 
* liv52 is pointless, use NAC instead
* proviron is literally only for libido, the freeing up test thing might sound good on paper but does nothing in application 
* wasnt aware ALA did anything for joints, its a good GDA though
* add in 3g of fish oil daily if you dont eat oily fish 3x per week
* run adex as needed, you should have a grasp on your requirements based off your first cycle

also dont fall into the trap of thinking var is mild
it is in terms of external sides but it has literally crushed my lipids as bad as tren in the past


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## MrSilver (Aug 4, 2014)

swole troll said:


> some changes id make
> 
> * use the var all in one go, start or end of cycle, which ever you prefer
> * switch BCAA's to EAA's
> ...


 My man! Ok so!

1) Would you reccomend using the var as a kick start or toward the tail end? I thought two lots of 4 weeks could be excessive, would running it for more then 4 weeks in a row be a stupid move? Maybe run it for 6? 8 seems a bit long?

2) Can switch BCAA's no problem.

3) Will look into NAC, not heard of before.

4) Will my labido be s**t without it? I do have a Mrs and don't want to have no sex drive at all.

5) Eat plenty of salmon, tuna and white fish, at least three times a week but can up salmon whilst on cycle.

6) I can tell you what I ran last time, I was using 0.5mg of Adex twice a week as well as 50mg of Prov daily and didn't have bad gyno issues that I can remember.

7) On a side note, just checked my log from couple years back, I used 40-60mg Dbol for week 1-5 then Anavar for week 8-12.


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## swole troll (Apr 15, 2015)

MrSilver said:


> My man! Ok so!
> 
> 1) Would you reccomend using the var as a kick start or toward the tail end? I thought two lots of 4 weeks could be excessive, would running it for more then 4 weeks in a row be a stupid move? Maybe run it for 6? 8 seems a bit long?
> 
> ...


 the reason i put out a first cycle is because its cookie cutter and uncharted territory 
meaning you either cycle or you dont and you figure out how you respond during that cycle in terms of sides and gains

the reason there was no cycle 2-3-4-5 ect is because its then becoming individual coaching based on the above variables (among many others)

whats for certain is you want significant gains off the first cycle so i advised what i believe (and many many others) to be the best balance between growing like a weed and keeping sides and need for ancillaries minimal

by running dbol you already strayed from what i advise and now (dont take it the wrong way) you are asking my advice then questioning me

ill tie up your loose ends though

1) var is fine for 8 weeks itll just ruin your lipids but it will anyway, its up there with anadrol and tren for smashing HDL and raising LDL in the bloodwork ive seen on myself and others

2) I was once an advocate of BCAA's but can honestly say theyre damn near worthless now, EAA's are what i perceived BCAA's to be before more data came out proving BCAA's as expensive water flavoring

3) cheap as chips and the best liver support bar tudca

4) your libido will be fine if you control your oestrogen

5) eat oily fish 3x per week (salmon, mackerel ect) if not supplement with fish oil

6) AI's stick to what works for you, the adex will have done 99% of the work of your E2 control

7) if youve ran dbol before and had no issues just kick your cycle with dbol for 4 weeks and complete sub the var out, dont run both, 4 weeks is the minimum id run var and that would be at 100mg at least and thats purely for strength boost


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## MrSilver (Aug 4, 2014)

@swole troll your advice is much appreciated so thank you for taking the time to reply in such depth. I'll be sure to chuck some good karma your way!

When I did my first cycle I didn't even know this thread existed, hence I had some Dbol and Var chucked in (who doesn't get up sold something from time to time eh).  I know this isn't exactly directly related to a "first cycle" but I believe it would be useful for other members/lurkers who perhaps have done a first cycle and are considering a second? I'm happy to move out of your topic and start another if you think it more appropriate?

Assuming your happy to continue: Based upon anavar being a bit of a lipid destroyer and based on your suggestion I'll look into kick starting on Dbol and remove the Var completely. I'm after lean mass, not neccesarily strength ideally with minimal water retention which I thought Tbol was more sutiable for compared to Dbol (but I have never tried any other orals besides the Dbol and Var so can't comment from experience).

Also looking back on my notes, it would appear I ran 20mg of Nolva ED (no Adex) whilst on the Dbol kick starter then started on Adex every Mon/Thur once four week of Dbol finished, but I didn't write any notes regarding itchy nips or anything, I honestly can't remember if I did it as a precatuion whilst on Dbol instead of taking Adex. Nolva stops it binding and Adex destroys it, but for Dbol to be effective you need some levels of estrogen - correct? So nolva at say 10-20mg/day whilst on Dbol, then swap over to Adex once the kick starters finished?

Based on your advice here is a revised cycle.

*Test E & Dbol Cycle Week 1-15*
Test E 2ml 500mg / E7D *week 1-15.*
Dbol 40mg ED *week 1-4.*
Nolva 20mg ED *week 1-4.*
HCG 500iu Mon/Thur *week 1-17.*
Adex 0.5mg Mon/Thur *week 5-15.*

*PCT Week 18-21 (3 weeks after last Test E jab)*
Clomid 100/50/50/50mg ED *week 18-21.*
Nolva 40/20/20/20mg ED *week 18-21.*

*Extras*
NAC for liver protection.
EAA's drunk throughout cycle.
ALA for GDA throughout cycle.
Omega 3/6/9 oil supplement and/or oily fish.

*Notes*
Extra Nolva and Adex on hand for whole cycle in case of gyno symptoms.

I suppose my last question is should I start on 40mg of Dbol and taper up to 60mg and see how I manage sides (if any)?

Muchos thanks!


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## swole troll (Apr 15, 2015)

MrSilver said:


> @swole troll your advice is much appreciated so thank you for taking the time to reply in such depth. I'll be sure to chuck some good karma your way!
> 
> When I did my first cycle I didn't even know this thread existed, hence I had some Dbol and Var chucked in (who doesn't get up sold something from time to time eh).  I know this isn't exactly directly related to a "first cycle" but I believe it would be useful for other members/lurkers who perhaps have done a first cycle and are considering a second? I'm happy to move out of your topic and start another if you think it more appropriate?
> 
> ...


 40mg dbol more than enough mate

Cycle looks fine but the dbol is a very wet compound

If you want dry then stick with the var if you already have it, if not then tbol is a good shout


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## MrSilver (Aug 4, 2014)

@swole troll spot on mate! Thank you.

I have 42x20mg Dimension Dbol and 23x50mg Dimension Var left over which I would/could top up with some TM stuff, rather than wasting it.

As you just confirmed I thought Dbol was considered wet gains and Tbol/Var dry gains. As you say would probably make most sense to stick to what I have some stock of and have already used in the past.

I'll have more of a read into all three, money isn't an issue when it comes to putting drugs in my body so I'm not scared about the cost of anything and Dbol is very cheap compound which makes me suspect it's cheap for a reason compared to var (and potentially Tbol).


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## Rhinoceros (Mar 24, 2018)

@swole troll Another beginner question just about the pins. Do a lot of people use the needle exchange or get there own? Any recommendations online?


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## swole troll (Apr 15, 2015)

Rhinoceros said:


> @swole troll Another beginner question just about the pins. Do a lot of people use the needle exchange or get there own? Any recommendations online?


 the whole list of supplies i listed at the start of this thread can be purchased on this website and delivered discretely

https://www.medisave.co.uk/consumables-general-supplies/injection-infusion/needles-syringes.html


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## Rhinoceros (Mar 24, 2018)

swole troll said:


> the whole list of supplies i listed at the start of this thread can be purchased on this website and delivered discretely
> 
> https://www.medisave.co.uk/consumables-general-supplies/injection-infusion/needles-syringes.html


 Thanks for info mate. One more thing.. what would your recommendation for when to get blood work done during the cycle? Got myself a discounted medicheck but whether to save that till half way and then get another after. Had the idea I was going to do a pre cycle check for liver/kidney function but might be a waste of money


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## swole troll (Apr 15, 2015)

Rhinoceros said:


> Thanks for info mate. One more thing.. what would your recommendation for when to get blood work done during the cycle? Got myself a discounted medicheck but whether to save that till half way and then get another after. Had the idea I was going to do a pre cycle check for liver/kidney function but might be a waste of money


 i like blood work 6 weeks post final serm to check for recovery for those that cycle

or pre blast to see if markers have normalized for those that blast and cruise


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## sabsigseven (Jul 27, 2018)

Swole Troll this is an amazing thread, thanks much for taking the time to write this and provide answers.


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## sabsigseven (Jul 27, 2018)

@swole troll Hoping I could ask about the 2ml pin/week section. I understand from what you've written (and from a complete layman's position ofc) that this being a medium chain ester doesn't require 2x 1ml pins/week (presuming here our test e is dosed 250mg/ml ofc.)

So many cycles and fora seem to insist on 2x 250mg (1ml) pins/week. Could you elaborate on why this might be, and if there are any more advantages/disadvantages to either approach?

Again, very grateful for what you've posted and also how you've written it!


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## Sasnak (Oct 11, 2016)

sabsigseven said:


> So many cycles and fora seem to insist on 2x 250mg (1ml) pins/week


 Bro-science

It's not going to make any notable difference. You can calculate release times here:

https://steroidcalc.com/


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## swole troll (Apr 15, 2015)

sabsigseven said:


> @swole troll Hoping I could ask about the 2ml pin/week section. I understand from what you've written (and from a complete layman's position ofc) that this being a medium chain ester doesn't require 2x 1ml pins/week (presuming here our test e is dosed 250mg/ml ofc.)
> 
> So many cycles and fora seem to insist on 2x 250mg (1ml) pins/week. Could you elaborate on why this might be, and if there are any more advantages/disadvantages to either approach?
> 
> Again, very grateful for what you've posted and also how you've written it!


 There's a lot of nonsense out there

Sasnak has answered this for you


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## sabsigseven (Jul 27, 2018)

That's brilliant, thanks both.


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## Sasnak (Oct 11, 2016)

sabsigseven said:


> That's brilliant, thanks both.


 The only caveat is if you are new to steroids or trying a new lab then you might want to initially inject half a mil to see how you react. Not everyone gets on with certain carrier oils/solvents. If you do half a mil and get bad pip (post injection pain) then it's not likely to be as bad as if you'd injected 2 mil. If you haven't encountered discomfort in 24 hours pin the rest. Chances of pip are low but after a bad experience some years ago I always do this. Admittedly, my bad experience was with a water based suspension.


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## sabsigseven (Jul 27, 2018)

Sasnak said:


> The only caveat is if you are new to steroids or trying a new lab then you might want to initially inject half a mil to see how you react. Not everyone gets on with certain carrier oils/solvents. If you do half a mil and get bad pip (post injection pain) then it's not likely to be as bad as if you'd injected 2 mil. If you haven't encountered discomfort in 24 hours pin the rest. Chances of pip are low but after a bad experience some years ago I always do this. Admittedly, my bad experience was with a water based suspension.


 Hi - yes I'm new to it all, just researching atm. Thanks for that advice.

Also, not that I'm *too* bothered by the prospect, but will a 2ml injection hurt substantially more than a 1ml? Just wondering how best to manage that or if there's more to it than just massage site/glute a bit afterwards and see.


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## Cypionate (Jan 17, 2016)

sabsigseven said:


> Hi - yes I'm new to it all, just researching atm. Thanks for that advice.
> 
> Also, not that I'm *too* bothered by the prospect, but will a 2ml injection hurt substantially more than a 1ml? Just wondering how best to manage that or if there's more to it than just massage site/glute a bit afterwards and see.


 If you don't react well to the carrier oil, or the solvents, or the concentration is very high such as T400, then you can end up without the use of that limb for upto a week, but it goes away

pip is just pip, 1/2ml will feel like someone gave you a dead arm/leg for a few days, nothing life threatening


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## sabsigseven (Jul 27, 2018)

Thanks Cypionate, I'll go with a .5ml pin initially and see how I do.


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## Cypionate (Jan 17, 2016)

sabsigseven said:


> Thanks Cypionate, I'll go with a .5ml pin initially and see how I do.


 Don't think too much into it, virgin muscles are gonna get some pip initially regardless, after a few shots they get used to it, long as you keep everything sterile the worst case scenario is a sore arm/leg/arse


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## MATTxSW (Sep 16, 2014)

MrSilver said:


> *Purchaseables*
> 3 x 10ml 250mg Test E vials
> 56 x 50mg Anavar
> 49 x 1mg Adex
> ...


 Can someone explain the use of 2 types of syringe and 2 types of needle?

This is my guess, insulin syringes come with their own needle, you use this to inject HCG.

The 2.5ml syringe is just a barrel with no needle. You connect a blue 23g needle and draw test from the vial. This blunts it a bit so you change to green 21g needle and inject your test.


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## Rob27 (Apr 29, 2018)

MATTxSW said:


> Can someone explain the use of 2 types of syringe and 2 types of needle?
> 
> This is my guess, insulin syringes come with their own needle, you use this to inject HCG.
> 
> The 2.5ml syringe is just a barrel with no needle. You connect a blue 23g needle and draw test from the vial. This blunts it a bit so you change to green 21g needle and inject your test.


 No, draw with the green and inject with the blue.

With hcg if injecting sub q use insulin pins, if injecting IM use the same as above, green to draw, blue to inject


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## MATTxSW (Sep 16, 2014)

Thanks! I'm just trying to finalise my shop on www.medisave.co.uk

There are a few types of insulin syringe and needle. The different ones vary by two factors... mm and g which i guess is grams weight and mm needle thickness? Which should I buy?


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## Rob27 (Apr 29, 2018)

MATTxSW said:


> Thanks! I'm just trying to finalise my shop on www.medisave.co.uk
> 
> There are a few types of insulin syringe and needle. The different ones vary by two factors... mm and g which i guess is grams weight and mm needle thickness? Which should I buy?


 buy the smallest ones they do in the insulin syringe, i think mine are 1 ml /30g i havent got mine to hand at the momemt to check.


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## swole troll (Apr 15, 2015)

MATTxSW said:


> Thanks! I'm just trying to finalise my shop on www.medisave.co.uk
> 
> Which should I buy?


 I listed what you need word for word in the OP

All of which can be sourced from medisave


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## MATTxSW (Sep 16, 2014)

swole troll said:


> I listed what you need word for word in the OP
> 
> All of which can be sourced from medisave


 I was really pleased to find your post about this.

Thanks for making that effort, I'm trying to follow it as closely as I can!One issue I had is that your list said "*Luer lock syringe barrel" but didn't specify a size so I went looking for more info** down the thread. I found Mr Silver's post listing purchasables:*

*100 x 1ml Insulin syringe (for HCG)*

*100 x 2.5ml Syringe (for pinning)*

*100 x Green 21g's
100 x Blue 23g's*

Could you confirm exactly your shopping list for your exact 1st cycle from Medisave? Thanks in advance.

@swole troll


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## jd (Aug 16, 2015)

MATTxSW said:


> I was really pleased to find your post about this.
> 
> Thanks for making that effort, I'm trying to follow it as closely as I can!One issue I had is that your list said "*Luer lock syringe barrel" but didn't specify a size so I went looking for more info** down the thread. I found Mr Silver's post listing purchasables:*
> 
> ...


 Add Alcohol swabs and a sharps bin too that list


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## Sasnak (Oct 11, 2016)

jd said:


> Could you confirm exactly your shopping list


 This:

https://www.exchangesupplies.org/shopdisp_212GLB.php

add slin pins to the order and oranges if you want to pin delts


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## MATTxSW (Sep 16, 2014)

Sasnak said:


> This:
> 
> https://www.exchangesupplies.org/shopdisp_212GLB.php
> 
> add slin pins to the order and oranges if you want to pin delts


 That's a good idea... selling exactly what you need for a 12 week cycle but I want to do a 14 or 15 week cycle and would like a few spares in case something happens. Looks like they only do 15 week cycle with no spares. By the way, what are slin pins??

Medisave is quite reasonably priced. @swole troll since this is your post, could you give final confirmation on the medisave order including syringe sizes?


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## swole troll (Apr 15, 2015)

MATTxSW said:


> That's a good idea... selling exactly what you need for a 12 week cycle but I want to do a 14 or 15 week cycle and would like a few spares in case something happens. Looks like they only do 15 week cycle with no spares. By the way, what are slin pins??
> 
> Medisave is quite reasonably priced. @swole troll since this is your post, could you give final confirmation on the medisave order including syringe sizes?


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## irwellfalls (Aug 8, 2013)

MATTxSW said:


> That's a good idea... selling exactly what you need for a 12 week cycle but I want to do a 14 or 15 week cycle and would like a few spares in case something happens. Looks like they only do 15 week cycle with no spares. By the way, what are slin pins??
> 
> Medisave is quite reasonably priced. @swole troll since this is your post, could you give final confirmation on the medisave order including syringe sizes?


 try ebay if you don't want to buy 100 of each


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## Sasnak (Oct 11, 2016)

MATTxSW said:


> Looks like they only do 15 week cycle with no spares.


 Jesus wept. Are you a troll, or just daft? They do an 84 pack. 84 barrels 84 drawing needles, 84 injecting needles and 168 alcohol swabs for £16 plus vat. A slin pin is an insulin needle. Add them plus orange needles to take your order over twenty five quid iirc and they'll deliver it for free.

How hard do you want to make it?


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## MATTxSW (Sep 16, 2014)

Sasnak said:


> Jesus wept. Are you a troll, or just stupid. They do an 84 pack. 84 barrels 84 drawing needles, 84 injecting needles and 168 alcohol swabs for £16 plus vat. A slin pin is an insulin needle. Add them plus orange needles to take your order over twenty five quid iirc and they'll deliver it for free.
> 
> How hard do you want to make it?


 Maybe they sell chill pills? Well, thanks for trying to be helpful anyway. I've made my order from Medisave

Thanks @swole troll


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## Shearer (Jan 1, 2018)

300 mg of test should I do a ml every 4days??


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## Sasnak (Oct 11, 2016)

Shearer said:


> 300 mg of test should I do a ml every 4days??


 No, 2 mil once a week is fine but split if you really want to.

If you read the guide he has answered this question and stated that splitting the dose is "unnecessary on medium chain esters".

You really don't need to pin enanthate/cypionate/sustanon more than once a week. Twice a week is fine with prop.


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## Shearer (Jan 1, 2018)

So I will be on 600 mg a week with two ml thanks


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## swole troll (Apr 15, 2015)

Shearer said:


> So I will be on 600 mg a week with two ml thanks


 that's fine

the only reason youd want to split the doses on a first cycle is pin practice and reducing oil volume for virgin sites, both of which can be done on the same day


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## Shearer (Jan 1, 2018)

Kk 2 ml and 100mg of var it is bud thanks


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## Xyz12 (Jun 4, 2019)

So what would be best for first time pinning, 2ml at once or 1ml two times a week? I like the sound of 2ml at once to minimise pinning but I don't want to inject 2ml and it causes bad pain.

What needle length is good for glutes?


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## TURBS (Oct 21, 2013)

Xyz12 said:


> So what would be best for first time pinning, 2ml at once or 1ml two times a week? I like the sound of 2ml at once to minimise pinning but I don't want to inject 2ml and it causes bad pain.
> 
> What needle length is good for glutes?


 Personally I would split the first couple of pins as virgin muscle, then go up to 2ml once a week.

1.25" blue is good for glutes.


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## swole troll (Apr 15, 2015)

Xyz12 said:


> So what would be best for first time pinning, 2ml at once or 1ml two times a week? I like the sound of 2ml at once to minimise pinning but I don't want to inject 2ml and it causes bad pain.
> 
> What needle length is good for glutes?


 TERBO has answered this well, 1 - 1.5" 23g needle, i personally use a 1.25" as listed in the OP but anything within that range should be ok assuming youre not morbidly obese in which case id advise you not to be running your first cycle until you lean up

you want to get onto minimizing shot frequency asap due to increase in scar tissue and risk of infection being increased (although the risk of both is very low)

you could do say your first month of the cycle with 2 x 1ml shots to get some pin practice in and break your glutes in and then switch to 1x2ml shot per week for the remainder of the cycle


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## Xyz12 (Jun 4, 2019)

Ok I will start with pinning twice a week 1ml each. Thanks for the replies.


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## TALBOTL (Feb 13, 2019)

Sasnak said:


> No, 2 mil once a week is fine but split if you really want to.
> 
> If you read the guide he has answered this question and stated that splitting the dose is "unnecessary on medium chain esters".
> 
> You really don't need to pin enanthate/cypionate/sustanon more than once a week. Twice a week is fine with prop.


 Apologies on dragging this up Sasnak - are you saying that in theory you could for example inject 200mg of Prop (2x100) twice a week for example Mon & Thurs?


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## Sasnak (Oct 11, 2016)

TALBOTL said:


> Apologies on dragging this up Sasnak - are you saying that in theory you could for example inject 200mg of Prop (2x100) twice a week for example Mon & Thurs?


 That would be fine unless you aromatise the test very heavily. High e2 sides would be the indicator, which in my case is always greasy skin and nothing else.

If you inject 100mg of prop, 76% of that is hormone and the rest is the ester. The terminal half life of the propionate ester is about 24 hours* so after 24 hours you'll have half of 76 left in your system, or 38mg. After 48 hours you'll have 19mg left, 9.5mg after 3 days and say 5mg 4 days post administration. Normal healthy daily natural production in younger men is 4-6mg daily.

*half lives would appear to be considerably shorter that we think. It was traditionally claimed that prop ester had a half life of 3.5 days when in fact the terminal half life is actually about a day.


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## stuey99 (Nov 30, 2012)

Sasnak said:


> That would be fine unless you aromatise the test very heavily. High e2 sides would be the indicator, which in my case is always greasy skin and nothing else.
> 
> If you inject 100mg of prop, 76% of that is hormone and the rest is the ester. The terminal half life of the propionate ester is about 24 hours* so after 24 hours you'll have half of 76 left in your system, or 38mg. After 48 hours you'll have 19mg left, 9.5mg after 3 days and say 5mg 4 days post administration. Normal healthy daily natural production in younger men is 4-6mg daily.
> 
> *half lives would appear to be considerably shorter that we think. It was traditionally claimed that prop ester had a half life of 3.5 days when in fact the terminal half life is actually about a day.


 I'm defo not one to go on about "stable blood levels" mate...as I think we all agree its not necessary

I personally think this is taking it to the extreme tho...the minimum I'd go with prop is mon/wed/fri


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## TALBOTL (Feb 13, 2019)

For me who is considering a first cycle of Test P that useful to know, I have no issues with every day injections hence choosing it over Test E but if it's possible (sides dependent) to go twice week at 200mg as opposed to 100mg EOD that'll be much easier.

Ps thanks for the info on half life too, as you say the traditional claims seem to differ somewhat!

LT


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## Sasnak (Oct 11, 2016)

stuey99 said:


> I'm defo not one to go on about "stable blood levels" mate...as I think we all agree its not necessary
> 
> I personally think this is taking it to the extreme tho...the minimum I'd go with prop is mon/wed/fri


 I agree, I was just doing the maths to show it would work


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## Sasnak (Oct 11, 2016)

TALBOTL said:


> opposed to 100mg EOD that'll be much easier.


 Personally I'd do m/w/f. EOD confuses me as I can never remember if I pinned it yesterday lol. More half life info here: https://steroidcalc.com/about.html


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## swole troll (Apr 15, 2015)

aloha

just an FYI to anyone browsing this thread

I have no issues with someone running an oral only cycle as their first cycle if they wish to test the waters of the PED world

we should always aim to make the most from the least

just like a well structured training routine will titrate volume upward before deloading or a bulking program will slowly increase the calories over time
I do believe there is merit to doing an oral only cycle as your first introduction to steroids should you so wish (i dont think either injectable or oral first is best, theyre just different options)

reason being

* you get an introduction to performance enhancement (oral anabolic steroids do work guys, thought this was obvious)

* you will make results in an unnatural time frame that you can keep post cycle if you are smart about it

* any sides you run into can easily be nullified by cutting the cycle off if you are unable to get control of them

* and you will experience some level of shutdown and HPTA recovery

if you have a very tight reign on your physique and strength levels as you should do before considering steroids then you most certainly will notice the chemical assistance of say a simple anavar cycle

this thread will still remain as a first steroid cycle thread but for those that want a simple breakdown and introduction to performance enhancement the oral only route is most definitely a viable option and I would advise the drug of choice to be anavar / oxandrolone

very mild on everything external (gyno, acne, hair loss) not so great internally (very hard on lipids) but for an introduction to steroids this should not pose an issue assuming you are fit and healthy as you should be

how you would run this cycle is

50mg of anavar taken once per day for 50-60 days (typically UGL anavar at 50mg per pill dosage will come in tubs of 50-60)

48hrs after your last dose of anavar you will commence clomiphene at 50mg for 4 weeks *or* tamoxifen at 20mg for 6 weeks

you will then get blood work 6 weeks post final SERM to assess HPTA response

you will then wait a further 6 weeks and retake bloods to compare test levels to pre cycle test levels to assess whether a full HPTA recovery has been achieved or not before starting another cycle like the one outlined in the OP of this thread for example would be a great progression as you would have done a total of 350mg of anavar per week for 6 weeks as your first cycle and then for your second you will have increased the dosage to 500mg (of test) and the length on by 4-9 weeks.

please note this post is not encouragement of indefinite oral only cycles

injectables are largely healthier and more sustainable meaning more tissue accrued and retained post cycle due to how the body works with adaptive change and homeostasis.

so to clarify you most certainly can start with the cycle outlined in the OP of this thread but alternatively you can start with an oral only cycle if you so wish however any subsequent cycles should be injectable anchored from then on


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## sean m (Sep 20, 2015)

swole troll said:


> aloha
> 
> just an FYI to anyone browsing this thread
> 
> ...


 Would this level of oral be a good fit as a first try of steroids with having been put on trt due to low test ?


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## swole troll (Apr 15, 2015)

sean m said:


> Would this level of oral be a good fit as a first try of steroids with having been put on trt due to low test ?


 yes

just run it concurrently with your TRT and omit the PCT part afterward


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## 18557 (Jul 5, 2010)

swole troll said:


> test e - 2ml / 500mg E7D
> arimidex - 0.5mg ED
> HCG - 1000iu (500iu E3D)


 Glad I've seen this!

My health has been shocking over the last few years so my training and eating has been either 100% or 0%!

I've been given a new lease of life from the docs but neither of us know how long it will last but right now I can train and I can get the calories down me, even if some are from dense shakes. So I want to make the most of however long this will last and was thinking 15 weeks of test E with a dbol kick start, however reading this I'll drop the dbol. I also wasn't considering the HCG so glad I've read you're explanations as to why that's important!


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## swole troll (Apr 15, 2015)

rbduk said:


> Glad I've seen this!


 glad the information in this thread was useful to you, look after yourself on cycle and refer to all my "its not that difficult series" threads for complete baseline coverage for your first cycle, AI management and post cycle therapy.

cant source request / allude to on here mate so id suggest you edit and delete that last line from your post


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## 18557 (Jul 5, 2010)

Edited thanks. Sorted anyway now.

One other thing, I've decided to go b&c, couple of questions :

1. Is hcg really necessary now? 35 and done with kids

2. Ai is only needed on blast?


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## Sasnak (Oct 11, 2016)

1. Yes, it'll make recovery easier if things don't work out and you want or have come off.

2. You won't know until you've tried. Some need ai on 150mg, others don't on 750mg.


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## swole troll (Apr 15, 2015)

rbduk said:


> Edited thanks. Sorted anyway now.
> 
> One other thing, I've decided to go b&c, couple of questions :
> 
> ...


 why are you in a first cycle thread asking for blast and cruise advice?

A ) its irrelevant to the thread subject

and

B ) this leads me to believe you are on or not far from your first cycle and already considering blast and cruise

your questions also lead me to believe this as well.

please start a new thread on the topic


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## Tipperaryman (Sep 29, 2014)

@swole troll i see in an earlier post that you would not recommend someone starting used peds when shoving on in years ! im 39 and i have a solid training regime, and was thinking of doing a few cycles , now that i have finished with having kids etc. I was always interested but didn't want to mess around with my system too much. Obviously, if its a waste of time and money, then i just wont bother, and will stick to regular training and diet but i am interested to get your further thoughts on it ?


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## swole troll (Apr 15, 2015)

Tipperaryman said:


> @swole troll i see in an earlier post that you would not recommend someone starting used peds when shoving on in years ! im 39 and i have a solid training regime, and was thinking of doing a few cycles , now that i have finished with having kids etc. I was always interested but didn't want to mess around with my system too much. Obviously, if its a waste of time and money, then i just wont bother, and will stick to regular training and diet but i am interested to get your further thoughts on it ?


 you by all means can you just need to be a bit more wary of the cardiovascular risks at your age

I'd sooner someone jump on with a solid training base a bit older in years than very young with no training history to speak of.

another thing to consider is the likelihood of a full and or event free recovery at your age is significantly lower than someone 10 years your junior so you need to keep in mind that shut down of your HPTA could result in permanent dependence, this applies to all but again as you get older the chances of steroid induced permanent hypogonadism post shut down increase exponentially.

I mean in short you are only risking the same as someone younger than you just the chances it will effect you are higher given your age but that doesn't mean you can't still 'safely' use PED's

there is an endless list of people in bodybuilding, powerlifting and recreational lifters that have used from their 20's into their 50's and 60's without significant event so by you starting 19 years later than them it kind of puts it into perspective that what you're proposing isn't really that concerning provided you are a bit more vigilant with your health than someone half your age that can (recklessly) afford to have their head in the sand a little more

just know the risks of lifelong dependence will be high for someone your age

and have a read through this thread

https://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/topic/333257-managing-your-health-on-cycle-its-not-that-difficult/?do=embed


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## Tipperaryman (Sep 29, 2014)

@swole troll thanks for the response.

Yea, If I was going to do a cycle , my plan is to stick rigidly to your recommendation on first cycle , including decent amount of cardio etc.. I want to do it as responsibly and 'safely' as possible , however , if I'm honest , the idea of shutting down my system permanently would frighten me..


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## swole troll (Apr 15, 2015)

Tipperaryman said:


> *The idea of shutting down my system permanently would frighten me..*


 give this a LOT of consideration before making a decision.


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## Sasnak (Oct 11, 2016)

Tipperaryman said:


> if I'm honest , the idea of shutting down my system permanently would frighten me


 You have to assume that you are going to be reliant on trt for life and the chances are you will be. Nobody does just a couple of cycles. The only exception is those who try and get sides that most get away with and cannot tolerate them so they bail after a few weeks and don't use again. Don't underestimate how highly addictive steroid use is. Granted, it doesn't make you high like other drugs but then neither does gambling and look how people get addicted to that. Also consider if you cycle on and off you'll lose most, if not all of the muscle bulk you gained whilst on. This is why most users blast and cruise. I'm 46 and decided to stay on permanently last year. Like you I've got kids/had a vasectomy so my fertility isn't an issue.

Your choice.

Edit - buy this test and see what your natural levels are like.

https://www.forthwithlife.co.uk/male-hormones/

Other providers such as medichecks offer the same tests if you want to shop around


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## sos2008 (Feb 19, 2019)

Tipperaryman said:


> @swole troll thanks for the response.
> 
> Yea, If I was going to do a cycle , my plan is to stick rigidly to your recommendation on first cycle , including decent amount of cardio etc.. I want to do it as responsibly and 'safely' as possible , however , if I'm honest , the idea of shutting down my system permanently would frighten me..


 I think we are all apprehensive shutting ourselves down especially for the first time, the moment you cross the line and jab though there is no going back. Training on juice and off just doesn't compare and as swoll & sasnak said there is never just one cycle. I thought I will just do one gain 20lbs keep it and be happy, of course that didn't happen I was so happy with the gains off my first granted and it has changed my physique forever but then human nature you get greedy and you think oh ill just try one more 'cut' on gear to see and its rinse repeat. All I would say is stick to test only its the safest most studied compound and don't hammer dosage you can build a quality physique on 500mg. Time on = time off always no exceptions, pre steroid bloods to know what your recovery levels are, buy and monitor your blood pressure, HCG & cardio throughout, donate blood to keep blood clot down & solid pct of nolva/clomid. Theres so such thing as guaranteed recovery but the above will give you the best chance & you would be 'v unlucky not to recover. If you start throwin in Tren/Deca etc & blasting for 6 months then you really are playing with the devil, especially over 35.


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## Vince the Mince (Aug 15, 2019)

Does the argument that hcg on cycle is beneficial for cholesterol levels hold much water? Maybe this is common knowledge already but I didn't find much about it. The argument was that since your testes are still recieving the signal to make test they'll utilise cholesterol in the blood as opposed to them sitting doing nothing while your ldl levels build up.


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## swole troll (Apr 15, 2015)

Vince the Mince said:


> Does the argument that hcg on cycle is beneficial for cholesterol levels hold much water? Maybe this is common knowledge already but I didn't find much about it. The argument was that since your testes are still recieving the signal to make test they'll utilise cholesterol in the blood as opposed to them sitting doing nothing while your ldl levels build up.


 this is not the reason we utilize HCG on cycle and tbh not something i've ever even come across

a simple 500mg test cycle alongside a healthy diet and regular cardio shouldnt have any concerning effect on lipid profile for the time frame that you will be on cycle 
this is assuming you don't already suffer with poor cholesterol which I'd advise you address before starting a cycle not trying to manage it whilst on cycle


----------



## Vince the Mince (Aug 15, 2019)

swole troll said:


> this is not the reason we utilize HCG on cycle and tbh not something i've ever even come across
> 
> a simple 500mg test cycle alongside a healthy diet and regular cardio shouldnt have any concerning effect on lipid profile for the time frame that you will be on cycle
> this is assuming you don't already suffer with poor cholesterol which I'd advise you address before starting a cycle not trying to manage it whilst on cycle


 I know this isn't the reason, and my cholesterol is good. But I thought it was interesting. It sounds like it would work in theory but it's easy to make up something that sounds like it would work when it's actually complete shite. Thought maybe you boys would know one way or the other.


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## Tipperaryman (Sep 29, 2014)

sos2008 said:


> I think we are all apprehensive shutting ourselves down especially for the first time, the moment you cross the line and jab though there is no going back. Training on juice and off just doesn't compare and as swoll & sasnak said there is never just one cycle. I thought I will just do one gain 20lbs keep it and be happy, of course that didn't happen I was so happy with the gains off my first granted and it has changed my physique forever but then human nature you get greedy and you think oh ill just try one more 'cut' on gear to see and its rinse repeat. All I would say is stick to test only its the safest most studied compound and don't hammer dosage you can build a quality physique on 500mg. Time on = time off always no exceptions, pre steroid bloods to know what your recovery levels are, buy and monitor your blood pressure, HCG & cardio throughout, donate blood to keep blood clot down & solid pct of nolva/clomid. Theres so such thing as guaranteed recovery but the above will give you the best chance & you would be 'v unlucky not to recover. If you start throwin in Tren/Deca etc & blasting for 6 months then you really are playing with the devil, especially over 35.


 @sos2008 @Sasnak thanks for the replies. yes, i would definitely be just interested in using the Test E and while i would be hoping for some good gains, im not looking to blow up or anything like that. you both mention getting the bloods done and i certainly will, but what parameters am i looking for ? How would i know what my recovery levels are ? Sos2008, do you mean that i should stay on the test 500mg full time ? (sorry if these questions are basic knowledge, i appreciate the feedback)


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## Sasnak (Oct 11, 2016)

Tipperaryman said:


> parameters am i looking for


 The hormone panel will give you your natural levels. You then run the tests again post pct (I'm not sure how long after) and compare them to see if you have fully recovered.


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## sos2008 (Feb 19, 2019)

Tipperaryman said:


> @sos2008 @Sasnak thanks for the replies. yes, i would definitely be just interested in using the Test E and while i would be hoping for some good gains, im not looking to blow up or anything like that. you both mention getting the bloods done and i certainly will, but what parameters am i looking for ? How would i know what my recovery levels are ? Sos2008, do you mean that i should stay on the test 500mg full time ? (sorry if these questions are basic knowledge, i appreciate the feedback)


 no mate just 500mg per week for 10-12 weeks then PCT then 12 weeks off all steroids minimum and then back on, rinse repeat. Keep checking your bloods to make sure your recovered if you don't want to be on TRT between cycles though. You will blow up on 500mg a week if your training and diet are spot on, 20+lbs in 10 weeks is very noticeable to others, I got questioned a lot on my first lol. Honestly if you do it properly as outlined in swoll trolls first cycle post you will love it, I loved every second of my first.


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## Tipperaryman (Sep 29, 2014)

sos2008 said:


> no mate just 500mg per week for 10-12 weeks then PCT then 12 weeks off all steroids minimum and then back on, rinse repeat. Keep checking your bloods to make sure your recovered if you don't want to be on TRT between cycles though. You will blow up on 500mg a week if your training and diet are spot on, 20+lbs in 10 weeks is very noticeable to others, I got questioned a lot on my first lol. Honestly if you do it properly as outlined in swoll trolls first cycle post you will love it, I loved every second of my first.


 Thanks for that , ya , I'm pretty excited about giving it a go tbh !


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## 18557 (Jul 5, 2010)

The problem is you get half way through, like I am now , and start to think about how things will change in the gym when you get to the end ! You need a strong head to come off after your 12 weeks!


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## PhilJ56 (Jun 24, 2019)

I've just had my first jab of my first cycle of Test E this morning. Looking forward to the next 10 weeks


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## Tipperaryman (Sep 29, 2014)

swole troll said:


> give this a LOT of consideration before making a decision.


 @swole troll would running a lower dose of Test e, say 300 per week , lower the risk of having full system recovery issues ? or would this amount shut down the sytem regardless, so makes no difference ?


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## swole troll (Apr 15, 2015)

Tipperaryman said:


> @swole troll would running a lower dose of Test e, say 300 per week , lower the risk of having full system recovery issues ? or would this amount shut down the sytem regardless, so makes no difference ?


 No you'd still completely suppress hpta function after any worthy period of time on that dose

There is no way avoiding this side

You utilize hcg to somewhat limit the overall suppression of the entire axis (namely the leydig cells of the testicles) but hpta suppression is inevitable when using exogenous hormones


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## Tipperaryman (Sep 29, 2014)

ok, understood, thanks for the response


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## Rhinoceros (Mar 24, 2018)

@swole troll thanks again

Should calorie intake change much when on? Was conservative this time round moving into a surplus from dieting but assume it'd have a lot more benefit adding another 500 on top of the surplus


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## swole troll (Apr 15, 2015)

Rhinoceros said:


> @swole troll thanks again
> 
> Should calorie intake change much when on? Was conservative this time round moving into a surplus from dieting but assume it'd have a lot more benefit adding another 500 on top of the surplus


 Initiate your surplus pre cycle so that you are steadily gaining 0.5kg per week before you go on (couple weeks prior)

Your weight will jump up when you go on due to glycogen retention and transient water fluctuation hence it's best to establish the caloric surplus before this so that you can ignore the rapid changes in weight for the first couple weeks and then reassess once things normalize again.

Gaining 4-5lb per month is ample on cycle (again once the initial influx has settled)


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## Mujlos (Feb 27, 2020)

Hi @swole troll, I'm confused as to whether to just run Tamoxifen as a PCT as shown in this thread. Or to run Tamoxifen & Clomid as in the PCT thread?

Ill be doing 600mg Test E/wk for 17 weeks with 50-75mg Anavar for the last 8. Running HCG throughout.

When I did my first cycle a few years ago my pct was 10 days after my last pin for 3 weeks: Tamoxifen 40/20/20 & HCG 500iu a day for 10 days. And least to say I recovered shitly and felt crap for months. Put me of going back on for a long time.

This time round I want a belt and braces approach to PCT & the on cycle HCG.


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## swole troll (Apr 15, 2015)

Mujlos said:


> Hi @swole troll, I'm confused as to whether to just run Tamoxifen as a PCT as shown in this thread. Or to run Tamoxifen & Clomid as in the PCT thread?
> 
> Ill be doing 600mg Test E/wk for 17 weeks with 50-75mg Anavar for the last 8. Running HCG throughout.
> 
> ...


 The tamoxifen only PCT was for an oral only cycle as they're generally less suppressive due to the shorter time frame that you are using.

Run the PCT in my PCT thread if you want the fastest possible recovery (assuming you follow all the advice I gave in my first cycle guide threads)


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## Dannyb0yb (Nov 28, 2017)

Sasnak said:


> You have to assume that you are going to be reliant on trt for life and the chances are you will be. Nobody does just a couple of cycles. The only exception is those who try and get sides that most get away with and cannot tolerate them so they bail after a few weeks and don't use again. Don't underestimate how highly addictive steroid use is. Granted, it doesn't make you high like other drugs but then neither does gambling and look how people get addicted to that. Also consider if you cycle on and off you'll lose most, if not all of the muscle bulk you gained whilst on. This is why most users blast and cruise. I'm 46 and decided to stay on permanently last year. Like you I've got kids/had a vasectomy so my fertility isn't an issue.
> 
> Your choice.
> 
> ...


 Can i ask why they are addictive and why people dont settle for x amount of cycles?

When going off you apparently lose all the extra mass eventually?


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## Sasnak (Oct 11, 2016)

Dannyb0yb said:


> Can i ask why they are addictive and why people dont settle for x amount of cycles?
> 
> When going off you apparently lose all the extra mass eventually?


 Because you feel "ordinary" when you are off. 
Yes, you'll lose most when you come off. I spend most of the year on just half a mil a week (125 or 150mg) and that still has me outperforming what I would naturally. I am 46 though. Wouldn't necessarily be the case for those under 35

Edit - an idea of the difference.

Bench 5x5

Training naturally for ages - 85 kg

Blast - 107.5 kg

"Trt" dose - 95 kg

I could achieve better results naturally but at the expense of getting fat. Pick 2 of the following:

Lean

Strong

Natural


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## Dannyb0yb (Nov 28, 2017)

Sasnak said:


> Because you feel "ordinary" when you are off.
> Yes, you'll lose most when you come off. I spend most of the year on just half a mil a week (125 or 150mg) and that still has me outperforming what I would naturally. I am 46 though. Wouldn't necessarily be the case for those under 35


 Sounds like sort of a waste running cycles if you are forced to run them long term, in order to keep any extra gains. Especially considering all the health risks

Not trying to be condescending, I know a lot of people on this forum do cycles, it just doesnt sound that appealing if you are sort of "forced" to do cycles for life if you want to keep dem gainz


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## Sasnak (Oct 11, 2016)

Dannyb0yb said:


> Sounds like sort of a waste running cycles if you are forced to run them long term, in order to keep any extra gains. Especially considering all the health risks
> 
> Not trying to be condescending, I know a lot of people on this forum do cycles, it just doesnt sound that appealing if you are sort of "forced" to do cycles for life if you want to keep dem gainz


 I added a bit to my post.


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## Sasnak (Oct 11, 2016)

Dannyb0yb said:


> Sounds like sort of a waste running cycles if you are forced to run them long term, in order to keep any extra gains


 You'll keep more if you cruise between blasts. Coming off completely is when you tend to lose the lot. Whilst using gear can never be considered sensible reducing the cruise dose to around what a healthy individual would produce naturally is more sensible than running larger does year round. Obviously you'll probably end up with hypogonadism if you do this but it is possible to keep other health markers in check


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## The40YearOldVirginMuscle (Nov 14, 2019)

I thought youd only lose most of your gains or struggle to maintain them if you were past your genetic potential?


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## swole troll (Apr 15, 2015)

Sasnak said:


> I could achieve better results naturally but at the expense of getting fat. Pick 2 of the following:
> 
> Lean
> 
> ...


 bastardized version of shredded, natty, huge and I'd have to disagree with you on that one ^ buddy

I have a long term friend I knew categorically to be natural (I've been his 'drug coach' since the day he went from natty to enhanced) when he was squatting 240kg and deadlifting 300kg at 130kg body weight

people may scoff at these numbers but very few on here are pulling 7 plates on gear! and fact of the matter is a 300kg deadlift IS strong, the internet has warped some's perception but the majority of gyms don't have 6 plate deadlifters let alone 7

fun fact the same guy is honing in on 360kg now on his 3rd or 4th cycle, he'll be one of few people in the UK to legitimately deadlift 400kg in the next few years.

lean and natural is very achievable

and there are guys in the IPF achieving all 3; lean, strong and natural in the lower weight categories.


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## swole troll (Apr 15, 2015)

The40YearOldVirginMuscle said:


> I thought youd only lose most of your gains or struggle to maintain them if you were past your genetic potential?


 this is correct

many just cant cope with the small loss of coming off combined with the deflated look of natural glycogen retention.

plus many blast and cruise and still are not at their genetic potential.

genetic potential is a lot greyer an area than people think as you can often keep progressing for MUCH longer than most deem at their limit, problem is you may only be gaining 1lb of muscle every 6 months of caloric surplus which is a crap return on investment however that means you are technically able to accrue more size and strength / NOT at your genetic potential.

Generally, natural or enhanced most will truly cap out their potential due to set backs. There comes a point where you are so strong (relative to your genetics) that you make very slow progress and when you become injured, be it a small niggle or major set back, in the time it takes for you to recover you lose more muscle and strength than you are able to gain back and surpass between that set back and the next

as an example your bench may be at 140kg x8 reps, you develop tricep tendinitis causing you to be unable to do any kind of press for 6 weeks and in that time where you are operating so far advanced as a trainee you quickly lose say 15kg off your bench so now you are at 125kg x8 reps and it takes you 8 weeks to get back to 140kg x8 then you pull something in your back doing weighted pull ups which hinders your tightness and causes not only your back training to regress but also you cant get as tight on the bench press and subsequently can only manage 135kg for 8 and so on...

basically you are at a very advanced strength level for your genetics and injuries become more common whilst progression becomes more infrequent

this can either be age or genetic related but either way this is typically the true start of downward annual trend in size and strength, whether you are natural or enhanced.


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## Dannyb0yb (Nov 28, 2017)

swole troll said:


> this is correct
> 
> many just cant cope with the small loss of coming off combined with the deflated look of natural glycogen retention.
> 
> ...


 Great post. The almost inevitable surge of injuries is perhaps also our body's way of telling us not to become too greedy and enjoy the muscle mass gained at a reasonable level. But more want more

Ronnie Coleman and his injuries comes to mind

Continoually lifting 2-300 kg is a lot for the human body and our connective tissue to endure


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## Sasnak (Oct 11, 2016)

swole troll said:


> lean and natural is very achievable


 Fair point. Yeh, shredded and natural a la Andreas Munzer ain't happening without drugs.

I'd forgotten the three words.


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## The40YearOldVirginMuscle (Nov 14, 2019)

swole troll said:


> this is correct
> 
> many just cant cope with the small loss of coming off combined with the deflated look of natural glycogen retention.
> 
> ...


 With regards to age being the limiting factor or weakest link would you advise gh to supplement & aid with recovery?

What age would be best to start with gh supplement & should it be used as an extended cycle 6 months +, used continuously or used alongside with a window pre & post cycle of aas?


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## swole troll (Apr 15, 2015)

The40YearOldVirginMuscle said:


> With regards to age being the limiting factor or weakest link would you advise gh to supplement & aid with recovery?
> 
> What age would be best to start with gh supplement & should it be used as an extended cycle 6 months +, used continuously or used alongside with a window pre & post cycle of aas?


 hi mate

could you please repost your questions ITT and I'll get back to you

https://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/topic/337561-performance-enhancing-drug-discussion-human-growth-hormone/?do=embed

this thread is geared toward the first time steroid user and feel it's getting heavily derailed.


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## Foxnews (Mar 27, 2018)

How would you adjust this cycle if you were using a Test 400 ( blend of T)

*TEST 400mg per 1ml.*

*♦ Chemical Name ♦*
Test Enanthate (120mg)
Test Cypionate (120mg)
Test Deconoate (160mg)

also planning 1 shot of Deca at 300 one a week.


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## Sorin (Mar 2, 2020)

If i kick with dianabol 1 month and after that start with Test 3-4 month ?


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## swole troll (Apr 15, 2015)

Sorin said:


> If i kick with dianabol 1 month and after that start with Test 3-4 month ?


 I have no idea what the question is


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## Sorin (Mar 2, 2020)

swole troll said:


> I have no idea what the question is


 Ok, sory because my english is almost zero. Damn it german i forgot english.

I want one cycle to try: dianabol + test 500 week. But i think 2 componente same time make cycle complicated.Thus i think it would be better separated to take. 3 weeks Diana und then start with test. Is that ok ? I run HCG during cycle and think to buy arimidex auch.


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## swole troll (Apr 15, 2015)

Sorin said:


> Ok, sory because my english is almost zero. Damn it german i forgot english.
> 
> I want one cycle to try: dianabol + test 500 week. But i think 2 componente same time make cycle complicated.Thus i think it would be better separated to take. 3 weeks Diana und then start with test. Is that ok ? I run HCG during cycle and think to buy arimidex auch.


 Okay this thread is aimed as a first cycle for which the one I've laid out is ample

If you wish to use dianabol then do so during the first 4 weeks of the cycle that I've laid out utilizing 20mg of tamoxifen every day if you run into nipple sensitivity issues (gynecomastia symptoms)

However again if this is your first cycle I do not advise this, i advise the cycle I've laid out as written and if it is anything but your first cycle I'd reccomend starting a new thread on the topic.


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## 92917 (Apr 27, 2020)

swole troll said:


> *how do i mix and run my HCG? *
> you want to pin 500iu twice weekly spaced apart by roughly 3 days, i usually opt for mondays and thursdays
> 
> my ratio for mixing i like to use is 1ml of bac water per 5000iu of HCG which results in 10 units (5 small lines on a 1ml insulin syringe) being 500iu of HCG


 Just a question about the amount of bac water to add and why? ... A lot of stuff I've read online states 5ml of bac water for 5000iu. Some say 2ml. I've been doing the 1ml like above and then 0.1ml = 500iu x twice a week. Is it better to mix HCG with less water? Does it make much difference to the potency?


----------



## swole troll (Apr 15, 2015)

Pez189 said:


> Just a question about the amount of bac water to add and why? ... A lot of stuff I've read online states 5ml of bac water for 5000iu. Some say 2ml. I've been doing the 1ml like above and then 0.1ml = 500iu x twice a week. Is it better to mix HCG with less water? Does it make much difference to the potency?


 Makes no difference

Just mix it enough that the powder becomes suspended in the water and that you are able to effectively measure your dosage whilst taking into consideration that the higher the concentration the more that is lost in small amounts of fluid that remain in the syringe and needle.


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## stuey99 (Nov 30, 2012)

Pez189 said:


> Just a question about the amount of bac water to add and why? ... A lot of stuff I've read online states 5ml of bac water for 5000iu. Some say 2ml. I've been doing the 1ml like above and then 0.1ml = 500iu x twice a week. Is it better to mix HCG with less water? Does it make much difference to the potency?


 Kinda like vodka mate. Put a double in a glass...fill it half with coke or upto the top...you're still drinking a double


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## 124037 (Jul 5, 2020)

swole troll said:


> HCG 3 x 5000iu vials


 Hold on!! So you are saying I have to use hcg during the cycle?


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## stuey99 (Nov 30, 2012)

ali jumaa said:


> Hold on!! So you are saying I have to use hcg during the cycle?


 The answer's in the original post mate


----------



## stv (Jul 10, 2020)

@swole troll Hey mate, luckily I bumped into this thread and have a couple of questions if you have time.

I'm 30y old and started my first cycle ~ 10 days ago. I decided to run 250 test cypionate every 5 days and to ramp it up to twice a week (250 on mon and thursday).

My cycle will last 10-12 weeks.

Also, I added 50-75mg proviron with my test to keep my estrogen in control.

Now with the questions.

1) Can I run proviron entire cycle at lower dosages (50-75mg) or would it be better to leave it for later stages of my cycle?

2) I bought both anastrozol and nolva, (tamoxifen) before I started my cycle, but different people told me I can do more damage than good if I run it. Now, I see you are very knowledgeable and I will go with your advice and start using anastrozol. My question is, how much of it I need if I use proviron? Do I need to use 0.5mg each day as you suggested or can I try slowly to ramp it up, for eg. to take it only on days when I inject my testosterone?

3. Also, what is the reason for using hcg on cycle, to keep fertility, libido or something else?


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## swole troll (Apr 15, 2015)

ali jumaa said:


> Hold on!! So you are saying I have to use hcg during the cycle?


 It is advisable if you want a smooth a recovery of your natural testosterone as possible

low T is not conducive to mental well being, healthy libido or anabolism so I'd assume this is something you'd want to rectify ASAP.


----------



## swole troll (Apr 15, 2015)

stv said:


> @swole troll Hey mate, luckily I bumped into this thread and have a couple of questions if you have time.
> 
> I'm 30y old and started my first cycle ~ 10 days ago. I decided to run 250 test cypionate every 5 days and to ramp it up to twice a week (250 on mon and thursday).
> 
> ...


 1) yes you can run proviron at a lower dosage but 75mg is not considered low

I don't understand "or would it be better to leave it for the later stages of my cycle?"

or what? can you run low dosages or leave it til the later stages of your cycle?

it's a confusing question so I'm unsure how to answer that.

2) what damage will it do? and which drug in particular are you referring to when you say 'do more damage' as they're two different drugs with two entirely different actions

what benefit would taking it on days when you inject testosterone have? you do realize this is an esterfied compound with a slow release and effect, its not a 24hr transient effect, there is a spike in oestrogen 24hrs post shot but prolonged exposure is where issues arise, you could take a birth control pill and nothing happen, its the chronic exposure to elevated oestrogen that causes problems.

my advice is all in the OP

I have no idea what you're taking proviron for, it wont lower your e2 it can help to balance the oestrogen androgen ratio but this can require some level of plate spinning I'm not about to try and explain to someone with so many other things on their plate in regard to managing a first cycle so it's easier to just go the more traditional route of e2 management via an AI which again is covered in the OP and the controlling e2 thread I made.


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## 124037 (Jul 5, 2020)

swole troll said:


> It is advisable if you want a smooth a recovery of your natural testosterone as possible


 I have heard if I use during the cycle then it will be less effective to my body after the cycle. So what do you think??

Is there a good point in what they are saying?


----------



## swole troll (Apr 15, 2015)

ali jumaa said:


> I have heard if I use during the cycle then it will be less effective to my body after the cycle. So what do you think??
> 
> Is there a good point in what they are saying?


 Nonsense

It mimics LH that's it.

Provided you take a normal amount (like the amount I'm advising) you will be perfectly fine and it would be to your benefit to use hcg the entire cycle.


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## 124037 (Jul 5, 2020)

swole troll said:


> you will be perfectly fine and it would be to your benefit to use hcg the entire cycle.


 I think that may be killer to my budget :lol:


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## swole troll (Apr 15, 2015)

ali jumaa said:


> I think that may be killer to my budget :lol:


 Then maybe consider another hobby as enhanced muscle building is not a cheap endeavour.


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## 124037 (Jul 5, 2020)

@swole troll but I have an important question for you that I didn't really understand... now if I am using hcg during the cycle then you told us to start pct 18 days after the last injection.

then what I have to do during this 18 days stop taking hcg or just continue taking the same dosage and then increase it when the 18 days are passed?


----------



## stuey99 (Nov 30, 2012)

ali jumaa said:


> @swole troll but I have an important question for you that I didn't really understand... now if I am using hcg during the cycle then you told us to start pct 18 days after the last injection.
> 
> then what I have to do during this 18 days stop taking hcg or just continue taking the same dosage and then increase it when the 18 days are passed?


 My point exactly mate

Read the "PCT its not that difficult" thread

The answer is in the OP!!!

Again mate...it's YOUR cycle, at least invest some of YOUR time in researching it


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## stv (Jul 10, 2020)

@swole troll Sorry, I see now my post is kinda confusing.



> or what? can you run low dosages or leave it til the later stages of your cycle?


 What I actually meant is, can I run proviron entire cycle (12 weeks) on 75mg dosage or is it unsafe? From what I read people use it in final stages to look leaner and more thick.

I primarily wanted to run proviron as I have some libido issues and I thought (now I see wrongly) that it blocks estrogen conversion so I wouldn't need to use AI during cycle if I use proviron.



> 2) what damage will it do? and which drug in particular are you referring to when you say 'do more damage' as they're two different drugs with two entirely different actions


 Yeah sorry I wasn't very clear. I meant arimidex during cycle, I bought nolva and clomid for PCT.

From what I read, AI can crush your estrogen levels and make you feel miserable.

But if I continue with my cycle I will do it this way - 250mg of T cypionate every 4/5 days + arimidex 0.5 every day + proviron 75mg every day for 12 weeks. Does it look alright to you?



> I'm not about to try and explain to someone with so many other things on their plate in regard to managing a first cycle


 I think you are completely right and I'm starting to have some doubts after reading this thread. I will make a decision today if I will continue with my cycle or pull out. I'm not sure I'm mentally ready for it risks, plus as I have mentioned, I have some sort of erectile dysfunction and I'm afraid it will only worsen it.

One more question if you don't mind I know it's very stupid, If I decide to stop my cycle, do I need full and strong PCT and how long should I wait as I took only 2 vials (2x250 cyp)? Or I need to do a PCT like after a regular cycle.

Thank you


----------



## swole troll (Apr 15, 2015)

ali jumaa said:


> @swole troll but I have an important question for you that I didn't really understand... now if I am using hcg during the cycle then you told us to start pct 18 days after the last injection.
> 
> then what I have to do during this 18 days stop taking hcg or just continue taking the same dosage and then increase it when the 18 days are passed?


 Read my threads for the answer

https://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/topic/267472-swole-trolls-its-not-that-difficult-series-first-cycle-management/?do=embed

The question you are asking is in these threads so now I know either you didn't read them or didn't pay attention so I won't continue to answer questions regarding the details of them.

I made these threads to avoid having to answer the same things over and over.


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## 124037 (Jul 5, 2020)

stuey99 said:


> Again mate...it's YOUR cycle, at least invest some of YOUR time in researching it


 forgive me bro I am so sorry. I didn't notice this line.

Maybe my English doesn't help that much.

*HCG 500iu pinned on mondays and thursday (1000iu per week total) from your first shot of gear until 3 days prior to starting clomid*


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## swole troll (Apr 15, 2015)

stv said:


> @swole troll Sorry, I see now my post is kinda confusing.
> 
> What I actually meant is, can I run proviron entire cycle (12 weeks) on 75mg dosage or is it unsafe? From what I read people use it in final stages to look leaner and more thick.
> 
> ...


 Please read my threads linked above all

Everything you need to be concerning yourself with is in those (proviron isn't mentioned in them).


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## 124037 (Jul 5, 2020)

here this person who claims to be a doctor said in the second 8:38 that using hcg too much too long can cause desensitization, but definitely no one knows what is too much and too long for him. is using it during and after the cycle can be too long and too much?

That is really confusing guys every one got different opinion :confused1:


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## Youdontknowme (Jul 7, 2020)

ali jumaa said:


> here this person who claims to be a doctor said in the second 8:38 that using hcg too much too long can cause desensitization, but definitely no one knows what is too much and too long for him. is using it during and after the cycle can be too long and too much?
> 
> That is really confusing guys every one got different opinion :confused1:


 Internet is full of opinions, differing experiences, etc. Do your research and go with what you feel best. Posting a YouTube video of someone else's experience will not change the opinion of someone else


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## 124037 (Jul 5, 2020)

Youdontknowme said:


> Posting a YouTube video of someone else's experience will not change the opinion of someone else


 I am not trying to change his opinion but I am expressing how things are really confusing!! Is this wrong?!


----------



## stuey99 (Nov 30, 2012)

ali jumaa said:


> here this person who claims to be a doctor said in the second 8:38 that using hcg too much too long can cause desensitization, but definitely no one knows what is too much and too long for him. is using it during and after the cycle can be too long and too much?
> 
> That is really confusing guys every one got different opinion :confused1:


 So look at people's oponions and make your mind up then


----------



## Youdontknowme (Jul 7, 2020)

ali jumaa said:


> I am not trying to change his opinion but I am expressing how things are really confusing!! Is this wrong?!


 If you're still so confused after reading the above threads and after reading the whole internet and watching all of YouTube, then maybe you need a new hobby. Of course there are different approaches, just like there's many ways to do everything in life. And just like everything else decide who you think you trust and go with their advice. Neither are dead are they so their advice can't be that bad.

HINT: follow swoles first cycle, pct and managing health on cycle or just give it up. If you're still too confused or worried about hair , hcg, or anything else don't bloody bother


----------



## swole troll (Apr 15, 2015)

ali jumaa said:


> That is really confusing guys every one got different opinion :confused1:


 I'm assuming you lift weights?

how did you manage to decipher what approach to take with this given the vast array of opinions out there.

do you own a car?

a lot of opinions as to which one to buy.

even when you go to get a hair cut there is a broad variety of styles with differing opinions on which looks best.

as @Youdontknowme and @stuey99 have said, you educate yourself and draw your own conclusions based on all the information you find.

Of course these threads written by me reflect my opinion. Think about that sentence for a moment.


----------



## stuey99 (Nov 30, 2012)

swole troll said:


> I'm assuming you lift weights?
> 
> how did you manage to decipher what approach to take with this given the vast array of opinions out there.
> 
> ...


 He seems to want you to spend time ontop of the time you've already spent writing these guides to pursuade him your opinion is the right one lol

@ali jumaa this guy's already kindly invested his time, now you invest some of yours. It is your cycle after all


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## 124037 (Jul 5, 2020)

I am sorry for all of you guys I really feel I annoyed you by my questions that never stop.

But to understand me since that is my first time doing this and I know it is kind of dangerous and it has a very high potential risk and it is not advised by any good doctor in the world.

It makes me think 10 times before making any step.

I do really apologize for that.


----------



## 92917 (Apr 27, 2020)

swole troll said:


> even when you go to get a hair cut there is a broad variety of styles with differing opinions on which looks best.


 I imagine he could never decide (after reading reviews & the entire internet of course) and looks like this:


----------



## 124037 (Jul 5, 2020)

Youdontknowme said:


> Neither are dead are they so their advice can't be that bad.


 They are absolutely alive but what about their balls? are they still alive too :smoke:

There is no way to know


----------



## swole troll (Apr 15, 2015)

ali jumaa said:


> They are absolutely alive but what about their balls? are they still alive too :smoke:
> 
> There is no way to know


 if hypogonadism is a concern for you then do not touch steroids.


----------



## swole troll (Apr 15, 2015)

this thread is derailing into a silly conversation, @ali jumaa please start a thread with your questions in.

I will be culling all the redundant comments in this already heavily populated informational thread.


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## 124037 (Jul 5, 2020)

swole troll said:


> if hypogonadism is a concern for you then do not touch steroids.


 Absoulutay it concerns me, even if I am only intersted in bodybuildingnot in having children. it makes no sense to increase my testosterone for a period of my life to lower it for my entire life. in this way I will lose more than what I will gain!!


----------



## swole troll (Apr 15, 2015)

ali jumaa said:


> Absoulutay it concerns me, even if I am only intersted in bodybuildingnot in having children. it makes no sense to increase my testosterone for a period of my life to lower it for my entire life. in this way I will lose more than what I will gain!!


 Every time you take steroids you shut down your HPTA.

From the first time you do this until any or every subsequent time you do this, you risk damaging your sperm and testosterone production anywhere from not at all, all the way to infertility and or hypogonadism (inability to produce sperm or testosterone)

so as I said above unless these are things you are willing to risk, do not take steroids.

You can take every little peptide, serm, AI and over the counter supplement you want.
You can limit the time you are on steroids and you can avoid highly suppressive compounds.

You can take every precaution and smart move you want but you can still permanently shut down your testosterone production for life from just a single cycle and subsequently become dependent on exogenous hormones for the rest of your life to feel normal (the same applies to your fertility although sometimes this can't even be salvaged exogenously)

is this likely on a fairly mild first testosterone only cycle like the one I've laid out? not really.
is it possible? yes.

and more importantly it does become more likely to impair testicular function with every subsequent cycle and I will tell you now that 99% of people that run a cycle continue to do so, thus increasing that risk.

so my advice is weigh up the pros vs the cons before worrying about proviron or doctors on youtube or leydig cell desensitization being valid or not.


----------



## Vinny (Nov 18, 2012)

@swole troll

Thought would post it here as might be related.

How many days after Injection would you take your blood test?


----------



## swole troll (Apr 15, 2015)

Vinny said:


> @swole troll
> 
> Thought would post it here as might be related.
> 
> ...


 It will be at its highest 24hrs post injection

I tend to do mine 4 days post shot to get an idea of what my average test is (once peak plasma levels are achieved)

My trough reading (6 days post shot) was about 33nmol on 150mg test plus 500iu hcg e3d but of course depending on many factors YMMV.


----------



## Vinny (Nov 18, 2012)

swole troll said:


> It will be at its highest 24hrs post injection
> 
> I tend to do mine 4 days post shot to get an idea of what my average test is (once peak plasma levels are achieved)
> 
> My trough reading (6 days post shot) was about 33nmol on 150mg test plus 500iu hcg e3d but of course depending on many factors YMMV.


 Thanks pal will do it on Friday 

Heard on the "Strom cast" with Dr Dean, people can metabolise test at different levels, some people stay in range on 50mg Test E a week and some people need 150mg+ I think he said.

Would like to cruise as low as I can if means will recover my lipids faster.


----------



## Towel (Jun 2, 2019)

Vinny said:


> Thanks pal will do it on Friday
> 
> *Heard on the "Strom cast" with Dr Dean, people can metabolise test at different levels, some people stay in range on 50mg Test E a week and some people need 150mg+ I think he said.*
> 
> Would like to cruise as low as I can if means will recover my lipids faster.


 This is what so many people fail to realise

Then you get the same sheep on here pop up when someone posts bloods going "test is underdosed I got X amount when I was on the same dose"

Glad people like doctor dean are talking about it as maybe the forum sheep might actually take note, my brother gets almost double whatever I get everytime he gets bloods on the same dose.


----------



## Vinny (Nov 18, 2012)

Towel said:


> This is what so many people fail to realise
> 
> Then you get the same sheep on here pop up when someone posts bloods going "test is underdosed I got X amount when I was on the same dose"
> 
> Glad people like doctor dean are talking about it as maybe the forum sheep might actually take note, my brother gets almost double whatever I get everytime he gets bloods on the same dose.


 Agreed pal, there is so many variables.

If you use a good lab, 9 out of 10, they're fairly consistent. If you gear is good, our own bodies can be a variable.


----------



## 124037 (Jul 5, 2020)

swole troll said:


> so my advice is weigh up the pros vs the cons


 I weighed them up.

I am risking something important absolutely but according to the studies that I read so far, the shrinkage and supression is mostly reversible even without any pct but with a small marginal difference. and this margin can be diminished by hcg, as I can finally conclude nothing is mostly perminant.


----------



## stuey99 (Nov 30, 2012)

ali jumaa said:


> I weighed them up.
> 
> I am risking something important absolutely but according to the studies that I read so far, the shrinkage and supression is mostly reversible even without any pct but with a small marginal difference. and this margin can be diminished by hcg, as I can finally conclude nothing is mostly perminant.


 I think you're absolutely right mate...you should just run a cycle and not bother with a pct



swole troll said:


> Could you please provide the study you read that stated "shrinkage and suppression is mostly reversible even without PCT with a small marginal difference"
> 
> and if you 'conclude nothing is mostly permanent' why have you bothered asking me so many questions on the matter? seems like affirmation seeking and when my answers didn't correlate with what you were hoping for you have dismissed it with what I believe to be made up claims
> 
> so I am interested in seeing those study papers (not youtube videos)


 Leave him to it man


----------



## swole troll (Apr 15, 2015)

stuey99 said:


> Leave him to it man


 actually yes this thread is cluttered for those that wish to learn as it is.


----------



## 124037 (Jul 5, 2020)

stuey99 said:


> mate...you should just run a cycle and not bother with a pct


 I think you didn't get my point I didn't say you don't have to do a pct, but usually if you didn't your testical should start to recover but without a pct you will not achieve a full recovery, but with pct you are increasing your chances to get your hormones back to the baseline level or very close to it.


----------



## stuey99 (Nov 30, 2012)

ali jumaa said:


> I think you didn't get my point I didn't say you don't have to do a pct, but usually if you didn't your testical should start to recover but without a pct you will not achieve a full recovery, but with pct you are increasing your chances to get your hormones back to the baseline level or very close to it.


 Excellent mate

Looks like you're all set then


----------



## 92917 (Apr 27, 2020)

stuey99 said:


> Kinda like vodka mate. Put a double in a glass...fill it half with coke or upto the top...you're still drinking a double


 Hi mate. Wondering if you can help me here. I somehow have managed to f**k up Doing the HCG properly and not sure what I've done wrong.

I thought I was doing exactly as @swole troll's very helpful guidelines have suggested but I've ran out of HCG before I was expecting to.

I've Got a 5000iu Pack - doing 1000iu week (500iu mon + thurs) so should be 5 weeks worth. I Added 1ml bac water to HCG vial - been taking out 0.1ml (500iu) From vial in fridge + pinning with 1ml syringe.

2.5 weeks in (5 injections) and it's empty but that should only be 2,500iu in total. So I'm confused.. Am I being an idiot? Did the powder absorb some of the water and I should add 2ml bac water next time? Also I've basically done double dose and I'm due to have bloods done tomorrow so not sure if it'll have any impact on that. My pinning has been accurate with the 0.1ml..


----------



## stuey99 (Nov 30, 2012)

Pez189 said:


> Hi mate. Wondering if you can help me here. I somehow have managed to f**k up Doing the HCG properly and not sure what I've done wrong.
> 
> I thought I was doing exactly as @swole troll's very helpful guidelines have suggested but I've ran out of HCG before I was expecting to.
> 
> ...


 Erm...no idea what's gone wrong there mate...either you've only used 0.5ml bac water or you've been injectimg 0.2ml each time

My bet is you've mistakenly used 0.5ml instead of 1ml


----------



## swole troll (Apr 15, 2015)

Pez189 said:


> Hi mate. Wondering if you can help me here. I somehow have managed to f**k up Doing the HCG properly and not sure what I've done wrong.
> 
> I thought I was doing exactly as @swole troll's very helpful guidelines have suggested but I've ran out of HCG before I was expecting to.
> 
> ...


 It's simple math that you've laid out yourself so it's a case of user error in practice.

5000iu / 5 weeks = 1000iu per week

you've either not diluted it properly (not used a full ml) or you've been drawing too much fluid up in each shot.


----------



## 92917 (Apr 27, 2020)

swole troll said:


> It's simple math that you've laid out yourself so it's a case of user error in practice.
> 
> 5000iu / 5 weeks = 1000iu per week
> 
> you've either not diluted it properly (not used a full ml) or you've been drawing too much fluid up in each shot.


 I thought exactly this. It Can only be one of these reasons but I've Definitely been pinning 0.1ml exactly As I'm very precise about that. (1/10th of a 1ml syringe) And I Definitely added 1ml bac water in as it was the full 1ml syringe.... even if my measurements were slightly off (0.15ml for example) I shouldn't have got through 5000iu that quick.


----------



## stuey99 (Nov 30, 2012)

Pez189 said:


> I thought exactly this. It Can only be one of these reasons but I've Definitely been pinning 0.1ml exactly As I'm very precise about that. (1/10th of a 1ml syringe) And I Definitely added 1ml bac water in as it was the full 1ml syringe.... even if my measurements were slightly off (0.15ml for example) I shouldn't have got through 5000iu that quick.


 Mate the only explanation is the "exact" measurements you made being WAY OFF

I'd put money on the original amount being 0.5ml


----------



## 92917 (Apr 27, 2020)

stuey99 said:


> Mate the only explanation is the "exact" measurements you made being WAY OFF
> 
> I'd put money on the original amount being 0.5ml


 1ml bac water being the full 1ml syringe into the HCG vial... and with another 1ml syringe withdrawing 0.1ml (1/10th so a tiny amount), I'm not that stupid to do 0.5ml (half the 1ml syringe), I can understand being slightly off 0.1ml a few times even though I swear I've been precise but honestly no way I've been pinning "way" more than 0.1ml.


----------



## swole troll (Apr 15, 2015)

Pez189 said:


> I thought exactly this. It Can only be one of these reasons but I've Definitely been pinning 0.1ml exactly As I'm very precise about that. (1/10th of a 1ml syringe) And I Definitely added 1ml bac water in as it was the full 1ml syringe.... even if my measurements were slightly off (0.15ml for example) I shouldn't have got through 5000iu that quick.


 If you are absolutely certain of this then the only other explanation is that someone else is using your HCG.

There is literally no other possibilities as to why your 1ml of fluid divided into 0.1ml doses doesn't equate to 10 shots.


----------



## stuey99 (Nov 30, 2012)

Pez189 said:


> 1ml bac water being the full 1ml syringe into the HCG vial... and with another 1ml syringe withdrawing 0.1ml (1/10th so a tiny amount), I'm not that stupid to do 0.5ml (half the 1ml syringe), I can understand being slightly off 0.1ml a few times even though I swear I've been precise but honestly no way I've been pinning "way" more than 0.1ml.


 Mate...there are ONLY 2 possibilities

Either you only used 0.5ml at the start...

Or you injected 0.2ml every time instead of 0.1ml

There ain't a 3rd option here lol


----------



## stuey99 (Nov 30, 2012)

swole troll said:


> If you are absolutely certain of this then the only other explanation is that someone else is using your HCG.
> 
> There is literally no other possibilities as to why your 1ml of fluid divided into 0.1ml doses doesn't equate to 10 shots.


 Ah sorry yeah...3 possibilities :lol:

Or 4 I guess...a leak in the vial that's leaked exactly half of what was in it :lol:


----------



## 92917 (Apr 27, 2020)

stuey99 said:


> Ah sorry yeah...3 possibilities :lol:
> 
> Or 4 I guess...a leak in the vial that's leaked exactly half of what was in it :lol:


 So no possibility of something strange happening with the powder and water mixing? I'm confused as honestly I am not making this up Or being ignorant with what I'm doing. Withdrawing from the HCG vial it came in that's been stored in the fridge. Don't think any could have leaked from the rubber topped vial.


----------



## stuey99 (Nov 30, 2012)

Pez189 said:


> So no possibility of something strange happening with the powder and water mixing? I'm confused as honestly I am not making this up Or being ignorant with what I'm doing. Withdrawing from the HCG vial it came in that's been stored in the fridge. Don't think any could have leaked from the rubber topped vial.


 Yeah I was joking about it possibly leaking mate

You put a certain amount in...and you took that same amount out...I never said you were being ignorant, you've just made a mistake with the amount of water you put in (or a mistake with how much you injected...but I doubt you'd make that same mistake 5 times lol)

As myself and @swole troll said, there really aren't any other possibilities...not without changing the laws of maths and physics anyway


----------



## 92917 (Apr 27, 2020)

stuey99 said:


> Yeah I was joking about it possibly leaking mate
> 
> You put a certain amount in...and you took that same amount out...I never said you were being ignorant, you've just made a mistake with the amount of water you put in (or a mistake with how much you injected...but I doubt you'd make that same mistake 5 times lol)
> 
> As myself and @swole troll said, there really aren't any other possibilities...not without changing the laws of maths and physics anyway


 Yeah fair enough. I don't Wana clutter this thread about it As I get the maths lol. But I just don't understand what mistake I've made as I've done exactly as I should have. But I know that doesn't make sense and something's gone wrong somewhere along the line so il have to figure it out, when I do il put my hands up and own whatever it it was, but at the moment I still don't know. Thanks anyway.


----------



## stuey99 (Nov 30, 2012)

Pez189 said:


> Yeah fair enough. I don't Wana clutter this thread about it As I get the maths lol. But I just don't understand what mistake I've made as I've done exactly as I should have. But I know that doesn't make sense and something's gone wrong somewhere along the line so il have to figure it out, when I do il put my hands up and own whatever it it was, but at the moment I still don't know. Thanks anyway.


 One of only 2 possibilities mate lol


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## TURBS (Oct 21, 2013)

Pez189 said:


> 1ml bac water being the full 1ml syringe into the HCG vial... and with another 1ml syringe withdrawing 0.1ml (1/10th so a tiny amount), I'm not that stupid to do 0.5ml (half the 1ml syringe), I can understand being slightly off 0.1ml a few times even though I swear I've been precise but honestly no way I've been pinning "way" more than 0.1ml.


 Use insulin syringe; 1ml bac water = every 10 is 500iu, every 20 is 1000iu (I jab this E7D).


----------



## 124037 (Jul 5, 2020)

I have a question: how can I reduce the dosage of arimidex? Since the medicine come only as 1 mg per tab?

Can I take 3 tabs per week?

*the pharmacist told me you should not cut them!!


----------



## Youdontknowme (Jul 7, 2020)

ali jumaa said:


> I have a question: how can I reduce the dosage of arimidex? Since the medicine come only as 1 mg per tab?
> 
> Can I take 3 tabs per week?


 Cut it in half


----------



## 124037 (Jul 5, 2020)

Pez189 said:


> As to your other question about 3 tablets... *Really?*


 I read them again and I didn't find an answer for this particular question!!


----------



## swole troll (Apr 15, 2015)

Look guys I'm going to start deleting pointless chit chat in this thread

most of these questions are either answered and you're just using these later pages to have it spoon fed to you or they're just outright daft.

EDIT - done ^

remember there is an AI and oestrogen control thread in this series so consider popping your AI and oestrogen control related questions in that thread.


----------



## swole troll (Apr 15, 2015)

ali jumaa said:


> I read them again and I didn't find an answer for this particular question!!


 start a thread.


----------



## IainF (Aug 17, 2020)

swole troll said:


> how you would run this cycle is
> 
> 50mg of anavar taken once per day for 50-60 days (typically UGL anavar at 50mg per pill dosage will come in tubs of 50-60)
> 
> 48hrs after your last dose of anavar you will commence clomiphene at 50mg for 4 weeks *or* tamoxifen at 20mg for 6 weeks


 Hi Swole, many thanks for your time and effort here - more and better info than I have found scouring the internet for weeks!!

I am about to embark on my first cycle (Anavar only). I very much understand your misgivings with it vs injectables but I am now at least much more aware of how it fares Vs injectables.

I have enough Anavar to run 50mg per day for about 40 days and sufficient novladex to take your recommended 20mg for 6 weeks.

My intention however was more like 30mg per day for 3 weeks then novla for 3 weeks.

No delusions about become a pro bodybuilder, I just want to revisit on lifts of my late 20's and (of course!) Add an inch to the biceps haha.

Is running for such a short time a waste of time, bearing in mind I am not anticipating becoming a mass monster?

I also asked about adding test in a separate thread I started...Sasnak helped me out a bit but I'm still entirely confused as to why that would aid in helping avoid shut down. Shut down is not really a concern to me as long as the novla has a decent chance of bringing me back to normal post cycle!

If my stats have any bearing : age 35, 90kg, 15%bf, trained natty 12 years, currently lift 215kg dead, 180kg squat, bw+60kg dip, bw+45kg pull up...they are the only ones I care about really. Dead and squat were 230 and 200 when I was about 29 and my strongest ever.

EDIT: Sasnak answered the question about adding test for me - free rest will be increased as Anavar will bind to sbhg but my own test production will be suppressed on cycle. Adding test won't help with my natural production at all.


----------



## swole troll (Apr 15, 2015)

IainF said:


> Hi Swole, many thanks for your time and effort here - more and better info than I have found scouring the internet for weeks!!
> 
> I am about to embark on my first cycle (Anavar only). I very much understand your misgivings with it vs injectables but I am now at least much more aware of how it fares Vs injectables.
> 
> ...


 I outlined an oral only first time steroid user cycle earlier ITT for those that do not wish to start out with injectables.

the dosage and PCT I laid out is the bare minimum for both that I would recommend to make the progress worth the shutdown, IE you will actually hold onto some of the progress difference from when you went on until you completed your PCT and then successfully recovered endogenous function whilst retaining some level of muscle or performance.

anything less than this will result in very modest gains in progress which will be entirely lost during the recovery process.

To specifically answer your question, no 30mg of anavar for 3 weeks would be entirely pointless both from an on cycle progress perspective and of course to a post cycle perspective since you wont even make any progress in such a small time frmae when on the 3 weeks of anavar there is nothing to retain post use.

This 'could' even result in you losing muscle as you will gain nothing going on for 3 weeks but potentially lose muscle whilst your test is low.

again refer back to my optional oral only first cycle guide early ITT for what I believe to be the only worthy method of avoiding an injectable cycle for your very first experience with PEDs.


----------



## IainF (Aug 17, 2020)

swole troll said:


> I outlined the an oral only first time steroid user cycle earlier ITT for those that do not wish to start out with injectables.
> 
> the dosage and PCT I laid out is the bare minimum for both that I would recommend to make the progress worth the shutdown, IE you will actually hold onto some of the progress difference from when you went on until you completed your PCT and then successfully recovered endogenous function whilst retaining some level of muscle or performance.
> 
> ...


 Thanks Swole, very helpful. I would hate to run my first cycle and make no gains or even go backwards!!

I'll go with your recommendation of 50mg Anavar per day for 50 days and 6 week tamoxifen PCT.

I'll post up results during and post cycle in your Anavar specific thread.


----------



## IainF (Aug 17, 2020)

Hopefully last question Swole!!

Would you recommend getting bloods done pre cycle too, or just get them post cycle to ensure they look healthy?

I'm assuming there is a thread relating to where to get blood work and what to ask for...will have a look!


----------



## swole troll (Apr 15, 2015)

IainF said:


> Hopefully last question Swole!!
> 
> Would you recommend getting bloods done pre cycle too, or just get them post cycle to ensure they look healthy?
> 
> I'm assuming there is a thread relating to where to get blood work and what to ask for...will have a look!


 It's wise to get tested for pre cycle endogenous testosterone production so that you have reference point for recovery.

https://medichecks.com/products/male-hormone-check-blood-test


----------



## peidolong (Apr 22, 2021)

swole troll said:


> It's wise to get tested for pre cycle endogenous testosterone production so that you have reference point for recovery.
> 
> https://medichecks.com/products/male-hormone-check-blood-test


 @swole troll Hi swole, thanks for your informative post on first cycle, definitely my go to guide.

I'm 37 this year, 1.87m, 95kg (bodyfat should be between 22% - 25%), and I work out 5 times a week. I'm planning to start a cycle, and definitely want to do it right. My last cycle was probably more than 7 years ago and i haven't touched any PED since.

Did my bloodwork recently as attached. Apparently my lipids and estrogen level are on the slightly high side, and if memory serves based on my previous cycle (>9 years ago), I'm sensitive to gyno. And if I interpret it correctly, my Testo level of 10.38nmol/L though within range, seems to be on the lower end of the spectrum.

Could my baseline elevated estrogen level be due to my bf%? Would you advise starting a cycle once I manage to secure all the required gear?

Many thanks in advanced, and if I happen to ask these questions in the wrong place, do let me know and I will remove this post and ask these in the right place.


----------



## swole troll (Apr 15, 2015)

peidolong said:


> @swole troll Hi swole, thanks for your informative post on first cycle, definitely my go to guide.
> 
> I'm 37 this year, 1.87m, 95kg (bodyfat should be between 22% - 25%), and I work out 5 times a week. I'm planning to start a cycle, and definitely want to do it right. My last cycle was probably more than 7 years ago and i haven't touched any PED since.
> 
> ...


 Yes your body fat is high, unless you are competing in strongman or open class PL I would suggest cutting down naturally before going on cycle as this will have a significant impact on how much testosterone you aromatase which not only will cause oestrogenic side effects like water retention, gynecomastia, acne, emotional issues ect but also will be taking away from what you want the testosterone to be doing.

You really want to be ending a bulk at 20% at the absolute highest for recreational purposes and this isn't a goal, lower is better (8-18% is a good range), I'm just saying if everything were running smoothly and you were making great gains then you could continue to bulk for example for another 5 weeks once at 15% body fat rather than cut the cycle short when you are making great progress and PBs in the gym.

But for now, most definitely cut! all you markers will improve potentially also inc your testosterone which is low end of the scale at just over 10nmol (9nmol being bottom ref range).


----------



## peidolong (Apr 22, 2021)

swole troll said:


> Yes your body fat is high, unless you are competing in strongman or open class PL I would suggest cutting down naturally before going on cycle as this will have a significant impact on how much testosterone you aromatase which not only will cause oestrogenic side effects like water retention, gynecomastia, acne, emotional issues ect but also will be taking away from what you want the testosterone to be doing.
> 
> You really want to be ending a bulk at 20% at the absolute highest for recreational purposes and this isn't a goal, lower is better (8-18% is a good range), I'm just saying if everything were running smoothly and you were making great gains then you could continue to bulk for example for another 5 weeks once at 15% body fat rather than cut the cycle short when you are making great progress and PBs in the gym.
> 
> But for now, most definitely cut! all you markers will improve potentially also inc your testosterone which is low end of the scale at just over 10nmol (9nmol being bottom ref range).


 @swole troll thanks for your reply.

so your advice is that I should aim to hit 15% bodyfat (hopefully in 5-6weeks), then take my bloods again to establish a new baseline, and then maybe start a cycle if the new baseline looks promising?

could I also attribute my current high estrogen levels and low test to my bf%?


----------



## swole troll (Apr 15, 2015)

peidolong said:


> could I also attribute my current high estrogen levels and low test to my bf%?


 Most likely.


----------



## Freddy-K (Aug 26, 2021)

swole troll said:


> *In bold is the crucial information although i advise reading entire post*
> 
> Due to the amount of people that have messaged me personally regarding first cycle advise or critique my first cycle after having read my 'PCT... It's not that difficult' thread (linked at bottom of page) I thought i'd crank out another simple template to link to those asking me the same question over and over, a lot of the information will carry over from the thread i made on PCT but i'm trying to keep this thread exclusively the cycle part rather than PCT
> 
> ...


Is HCG necessary? Can I cycle without it also do you need HCG during cycle and PCT or only on cycle?


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## Advocate. (Jun 19, 2021)

@swole troll you are a star! Thank you for your extremely useful and informative post. I literally spent 2h of reading everything including the comments of this thread, and it's Sunday 1:40am right now, starting the work in almost 7h!

I have one question for you and would appreciate if you could answer please. I would like your thought on TRT (e.g. Sustanon or Test E 250mg per week or every 10 days) vs Cycles (e.g. Sustanon or Test E 500mg per week). Do you think 12 weeks of TRT is better (in terms of keeping the gained muscles) and safer (from fertility perspective) in a long run than cycles? I want to be as careful as possible in order to minimise potential side affects and maintain fertility.


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## Spieren (Sep 21, 2010)

Advocate. said:


> @swole troll you are a star! Thank you for your extremely useful and informative post. I literally spent 2h of reading everything including the comments of this thread, and it's Sunday 1:40am right now, starting the work in almost 7h!
> 
> I have one question for you and would appreciate if you could answer please. I would like your thought on TRT (e.g. Sustanon or Test E 250mg per week or every 10 days) vs Cycles (e.g. Sustanon or Test E 500mg per week). Do you think 12 weeks of TRT is better (in terms of keeping the gained muscles) and safer (from fertility perspective) in a long run than cycles? I want to be as careful as possible in order to minimise potential side affects and maintain fertility.


Swole hasn’t been on for a while buddy, you may be waiting a while.
This could make a good thread in the main forum as ‘Blast & Cruise Vs Cycling & PCT’ You’ll probably find it‘s 50/50. TRT will hold gains better but it’s potentially a lifetime commitment. As for a fertility perspective, I think cycling and PCT (along with HCG) will win hands down. Personally I don’t have any real life experience to offer bud.


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