# An email and reply I want you to read.



## supercell (Aug 23, 2005)

This email was sent to me by Micheal Phillips.

I am sure he wont mind me posting it upon this open forum as I feel it is a very relavant and has many important issues within it.

After his email I have posted my reponse. I thought long and hard about doing this but I felt strongly enough, as he did in sending it to me in the first place, to post it here.

Dear James,

I have just read your 'One step ahead' article in the current issue of The Beef, and wanted to pass on my thoughts on it to you.

First, its a great insight into the effort and discipline you obviously put in to win the UKBFF Final last year, and I enjoyed reading it. You are an outstanding Champion, and you can write too, so more power to you, and I wish you all the best with all you do in the future. You will no doubt be a great addition to The Beef.

One thing though, that has been omitted from your article, has been on my mind and I believe it should be pointed out to you - I don't know how you'll take my comments, but as a new IFBB Professional I hope you take my comments on board, and respond to them in a professional manner.

I am not a young lad who has only been training for 12 months, with no inkling of what is required to get to your level, but I think there are some young bodybuilders out there who may read your article and think that they can attain your level of physique without the use of bodybuilding related drugs. I am not being judgemental about you, James, we have never met, though I have seen you compete.

But I have to say I find your words to be 'economical with the the truth' and I just wanted to know why? Anyone with any basic knowledge of bodybuilding at your level will know that to get to your level you have to use anabolic steroids etc...so why not any mention of them?

I am not pointing this out to you because I wish personally to know, that's not my point...I want to know why you have chosen not to talk about the fact, as I believe it, that you must have used to get the physique you have, I think that is wrong, pure and simple, and doesn't paint a true picture of your contest prep.

I hope you aren't offended by my comments, if you are so be it, but the article simply doesn't paint the full picture, and therefore shouldn't have been published unless it included comments and references to the other side of competition prep.

I hope you can respond James, and I look forward to hearing from you,

Regards,

Michael Phillips.

Hi Micheal,

Many thanks for your email.

Let me take some time to explain to you my standpoint on this issue.

Over the last 5 years or so I have been very prominant on the UK/US message boards not only answering questions that other bodybuilders may have but also being frank and honest with AAS useage and drugs in sport in general.

In an ideal world we may mention such useage, however due to my position as a professional athlete, it has been indicated to me that such material would not be a wise move, for me or the IFBB of which I fully understand.

Let me put it this way.

I am sure you read Flex, Muscle and Fitness, Bodyfitness, Muscular Development etc. If you did you would see that other athletes are not in the habit of telling the whole story or omitting certain subjects. It's an unsaid and unwritten rule and be it right or wrong that's how it is.

I actually agree that it would be a great idea to mention and talk about it, and I would be happy to and in fact prior to turning pro I entered into many discussions. However, we also have to look at the law and that in certain countries such as the US, AAS useage is illegal and carries with it a prison sentence. This therefore would not be the correct message to give out to up and coming bodybuilders of any age.

I offer paid consultations to clients, as I am sure you are aware, and in those I am honest and upfront and tell them exactly what AAS do and their impact n the human body, both positive and negative. In fact I will offer you a free consultation if you wish to find out more.

I respect all bodybuilders, whatever their wishes are as far as the use of performance enhancers. We are all equal in my eyes and we all make up this wonderful sport.

Drugs are a part of our sport, like it or not but I have relied on my nutrition and knowledge of it, to not only build my own physique but also that of others.

I work with both assisted and also natural bodybuilders and am currently prepping 4 guys for the BNBF and NPA federations and I am extremely careful to check all supplements that they use.

I find the standpoint by some naturals (which I am assuming your are one) to be holier than thou, standing on their moral high ground. However, I am competing in a federation which actually is the fairest of them all, as we all compete on a level playing field.

I have known many athletes and some very highly ranked natural athletes that have used and continue to use, only to cheat themselves and others out of trophies at NPA and BNBF shows.

I have always maintained that bodybuilding is 90% diet related and you should know that yourself being in the sport. This is what is REALLY important. There will always be those who think they can build a great physique by AAS alone and keep increasing the doses due to their terrible shortfalls on nutrition.

Sometimes in life we dont tell the whole story, thats not to say we lie, as at no point have I EVER said I do not take them.

As a responsible professional athlete I have no reason to mention drug use, or anyone elses drug use in our chosen sport.

I hope you find my standpoint acceptable but at the same time respect me as an athlete and as a polite man, in respnding to your email in the first place; many, if not all my fellow athletes, would have just ignored it or told you to mind your own business.

Thats not my style and one of the reasons I am one of THE most respected bodybuilders in the UK. I am always courteous and polite and hence my time taken here to respond to your concerns.

This response, and your original email will be in the next issue of the Beef in my column and I hope this goes some way in helping you understand me and my wishes for our sport in the future.

Kind regards

James Llewellin, IFBB Professional.


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## defdaz (Nov 11, 2007)

Great response James, you really do come across well in all your posts and articles and I hope that gentleman took your response equally graciously.

It saddens me to think that many people think that getting big is just about taking steroids when, as you say, there are so many other key elements to becoming an advanced bodybuilder.


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## Macca 1976 (Sep 16, 2008)

Excellent read I think we all know when we read these articles especially in magazines like flex that the body builders in the articles do take steroids by just looking at there bodies, as its not naturally possible to get as big as some as these guys on diet alone.

But the point is that they got that way by bloody hard work and a diet that is near perfect.

I applaud the way you replied as you are right many another would have just responded with a insult.


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## Kezz (Sep 3, 2007)

nice reply mate... some uneducated people still dont believe you can build a fantastic physique without the use of drugs, sad but true


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## pastanchicken (Sep 29, 2008)

Well worded response James


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## hilly (Jan 19, 2008)

good reply james,

I thought this was obvious to most


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## Tinytom (Sep 16, 2005)

I think some people will think you can only get big with drugs whatever you tell them.

Even when you tell them what you use they always think you use more.

No win situation really.

Well worded reply.


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## Ollie B (Mar 14, 2007)

Fantastic response James. Im sure that has definatly answered his question relating to why you dont mention AAS use in the article. I like the way you conduct yourself, a true Gent.


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## Flexboy23 (Jan 11, 2009)

I've always thought this to be the case... A perfect example of this would be a muscle & fitness model who was sponsered by muscletech, but since admitting useage of AAS on the Bigger, Stronger, Faster film was dropped from sponsership by muscletech as obviously the company cannot be seen to endorse such athletes... As you said this is proberbley more of an issue for american users as it is illegal to even "use" AAS in the US.

An unwritten code of conduct..... but i think for most athletes its to do with protecting their endorsements, and its the endorsements that help ensure ones longjevity in the sport? Would that be a fair comment?

A great response none the less James, well worded and done very professionally.... You do mention Muscular Development Magazine, which i know is pretty much very open about the use of AAS and certain IFBB PROS like Lee Priest are known to have been published admitting use, and cycle designs in that magazine.


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## EDG301 (Oct 18, 2005)

Very informative and respected response James, you truly are a great Pro BB. It is a great shame that some people believe a great physique can be built on just drugs alone, and i find them somewhat delusional when ppl do think that, but, on another note, who can blame them>? It is result of hyped up information from both the media & the government.


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## martzee (Sep 11, 2007)

why does everyone who obviously doesnt grasp the whole picture of a pro bodybuilder always jump on the subject of drugs and that they would not be at the level they are today without them!I would ask Micheal Phillips what motivates him to ask such a question?As for saying it doesnt give the correct message to young bodybuilders i must ask him why would you fill a young athlete say of the age of 15-16 yrs with the notion that they would not make there dream unless they take this drug or that drug, surely this is giving them the wrong message and as James correctly said there are alot of natural guys out there who wish to turn pro in there federation who do not nessesary want to or need to take steriods or any other enhancing drugs but have a goal to reach pro status within there federation.They would learn a great deal from guys such as James following there diet and training methods without any mention of drugs.Micheal Phillips in my view is a little confused to say the least in the true method of becoming a champion bodybuilder as it takes more than just drugs to become a champion as if this was the case we would have 1000s of mr olympias! it takes hard work and dedication and more than anything it takes genetics,if you aint got those then it doesnt matter whet you take you wont become an ifbb pro as my saying goes(you cant polish a turd!!) 

Also you dont find pro wrestlers,footballers,cyclists,or and olympic athelete disclosing there drug intake and you dont find many people jumping on there back asking them to talk about there usage solely because its not the done thing as it is not in the proffesional athletes interest to paint a picture for the media that he or she uses drugs as it always gets blown out of proportion as we all know.Micheal Phillips should concentrate on the positive attributes of Jameses article and maybe learn that its not all about steroids and drugs then he may be in a better position to understand bodybuilding rather than critisise a athlete for conducting his way as a pro athlete should!


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

James a well worded calm reply, i am sure i would not be so polite...Micheal should know better as he is a prominent figure in the natural bodybuilding world.

in my opinion he knows why you have not mentioned anything but wants to raise it as he does not want anyone to think you are natural again this shows his misunderstanding of what it takes to be a champion....maybe if he focused more on getting drugs out of the natural ranks as we all know they exist than writing Emails then maybe natural shows will be exactly that.....

i can speak like this as i know at least 5 established natural who have and still do use one or more banned substance.....

obvouisly as a natural my opinion is valid


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## Mad7 (Apr 8, 2008)

Pscarb said:


> James a well worded calm reply, i am sure i would not be so polite...Micheal should know better as he is a prominent figure in the natural bodybuilding world.
> 
> in my opinion he knows why you have not mentioned anything but wants to raise it as he does not want anyone to think you are natural again this shows his misunderstanding of what it takes to be a champion....*maybe if he focused more on getting drugs out of the natural ranks as we all know they exist than writing Emails then maybe natural shows will be exactly that.....*
> 
> ...


James,

A very well worded response from a very mature (beyond his years) professional (ps: many thanks for signing your DVD for my son Sam, he was over the moon)

Paul,

I am assuming all competitors in the natural competitions are fully tested so how can they pass the tests and then stand on a soap box and criticize "assisted" bodybuilders.

That's more hypercritical than admitting using AAS:confused1: :confused1:


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## LOCUST (May 4, 2006)

A good response james, the correct way imo, i read the article and as you say some things have to be ommitted for certain reasons.

that article was one of the best ive ever read and made me want to get on the treadmill at 11.30 pm on a sunday night it had me that motivated.


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## martzee (Sep 11, 2007)

Exactly Paul when i was competing natural in my teens up to the age of 24yrs old i got very disheartened at the then ANB fed i was competing under as most of the gus i were up against were far from natural,i even complained at one British show and the guy was disqulified(he had gyno and terrible achne!)the judges only disqulified him after i pointed this out and they approached him and he turned to tears!!At least i was honest and when i was natural i was 100% natural and competed on a level playing field when i was not!


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## coco (Mar 29, 2007)

as far as i can see he was really only asking why you had choosen to not talk about your use in your column - which you duely answered.

to me he doesnt seem to be overly critical or judgemental but raises an issue which you covered well imo.

he has issues with not "telling the whole truth" and he thinks its wrong - well thats fine, everyone is entitled to there opinion. hopefully you have educated someone who didnt really understand the full picture

(edited to say i didnt know he was involved in natural bodybuilding - and therefore to me is being not un-educated but trying to be very judgmental)

shame as i would give most the benefit of the doubt


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## EDG301 (Oct 18, 2005)

Wow, im very interested how the bnbf central is going to turn out.... lol.... seeing as i'm competing in it!!! :blink: 

Will keep my eyes open lol

And regarding responses to this sort of email, a calm, thought out approach is ALWAYS needed, otherwise the point your trying to get across gets lost in an emotional frenzy. Well done for keeping cool J :cool2:


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## Andrikos (Sep 10, 2008)

Both sides have a point imo, it is true that there are many mis guided people in gyms that will try to keep up with advanced routines or schedules .Not just in bodybuilding, in any sport people think they can reach the top without the use of drugs.Anyways that was a well structured answer , well said!


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

Mad7 said:


> Paul,
> 
> I am assuming all competitors in the natural competitions are fully tested so how can they pass the tests and then stand on a soap box and criticize "assisted" bodybuilders.
> 
> That's more hypercritical than admitting using AAS:confused1: :confused1:


there are many ways around drug tests if it is a urine test you can carefully choose your choice of drug so it is cleared before the test or even use Insulin/GH/IGF/pMGF/GHRP-6/CJC 1295 the list is endless.....and non of these can be tested for.....but yes i agree most are hypocritical...let me just say there are many naturals who are just that my point was Micheal should focus on his fed than slam a Pro for trying to keep things neutral


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## Jungle (Mar 9, 2009)

I feel that Michael Phillips has the right to ask those questions of you. I also feel that you answered his questions with respect, dignity and fully justified yours and others reasons for not mentioning AAS use in magazines/interviews etc.


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## shakey (Jun 8, 2004)

Interesting post & a very good & honest reply James:thumbup1:


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## martzee (Sep 11, 2007)

Jungle said:


> I feel that Michael Phillips has the right to ask those questions of you. I also feel that you answered his questions with respect, dignity and fully justified yours and others reasons for not mentioning AAS use in magazines/interviews etc.


hes got a right to ask him on a one to one basis ie as a personal training client of James,not a direct writen attack on a pro athlete,if he was seriously interested in jameses insite into the use of drugs in bodybuilding then he should book an appointment with James and take whwt ever conclusion he seems fit to from the meeting,but i feel he has no real interest its just a chance to say he could never look that way so it must be down to steroids lol,just another jealous pencil neck(see i say it as it is!!!!!) :2guns:


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## EDG301 (Oct 18, 2005)

martzee said:


> hes got a right to ask him on a one to one basis ie as a personal training client of James,not a direct writen attack on a pro athlete,if he was seriously interested in jameses insite into the use of drugs in bodybuilding then he should book an appointment with James and take whwt ever conclusion he seems fit to from the meeting,but i feel he has no real interest its just a chance to say he could never look that way so it must be down to steroids lol,just another jealous pencil neck(see i say it as it is!!!!!) :2guns:


 :lol: Now.... come on martzee. He hasn't disrespected J, he has only asked a simple Q, which just so happens to become sooooo very tedious. But, if he did actually think before he wrote this, maybe he COULD have figured the answer out for himself :whistling:


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## flexwright (Oct 2, 2008)

great reply there james, you say one of the most respected,

in my eyes *The most respected*


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## martzee (Sep 11, 2007)

EDG301 said:


> :lol: Now.... come on martzee. He hasn't disrespected J, he has only asked a simple Q, which just so happens to become sooooo very tedious. But, if he did actually think before he wrote this, maybe he COULD have figured the answer out for himself :whistling:


thats just it he did think before he wrote and obviously didnt respect James as a pro and his LOGIC behind not going into detail about the use of drugs in our sport.How about writing a letter to all the naturals on here who compete under the NATURAL federations and ask them how they get around the drug tests that are obviously enforced!! :whistling: :whistling: :whistling: :whistling: i feel strongly about this as i have had first hand experience with drug use in fellow competitors in my previous natural shows,if you are going to raise a subject like this he can expect some comeback so i appoligise for nothing i have said. :rockon:


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## EDG301 (Oct 18, 2005)

martzee said:


> thats just it he did think before he wrote and obviously didnt respect James as a pro and his LOGIC behind not going into detail about the use of drugs in our sport.How about writing a letter to all the naturals on here who compete under the NATURAL federations and ask them how they get around the drug tests that are obviously enforced!! :whistling: :whistling: :whistling: :whistling: i feel strongly about this as i have had first hand experience with drug use in fellow competitors in my previous natural shows,if you are going to raise a subject like this he can expect some comeback so i appoligise for nothing i have said. :rockon:


Fair do's.


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## essexboy (Sep 7, 2008)

I think the "natural" viwepoint,especially among the naive and immature, can be to believe that drugs are the reason that James(and any other top bb) are successful.We all know that this is not the case.In a world with no drugs,the top guys would still be the top guys.The ingestion of drugs,in whatever amount or concentration,will not have any effects on the genetic advantages that James and other top bbs enjoy.Most of us realise this, and accept that mother nature is indeed frugal with her gifts.James is in a difficult position.if he mentions aas, then he may be accused of legitimising use , not mentioning them he is accused of dishonesty.Unfortunately his position, as a sucessful top bb, who admits use, will have an influence on the younger naive trainees, who will then regard James admission as a "green light" Unfortunately, our "want it now" mindset has filtered down to all aspects of society.30 years ago, i knew many national and regional competitors.Drug use was never mentioned outside of the circle,we knew it existed, yet realised that we had to do a good few years hard work, before we even considered use.Now on this board, we have school kids asking what to run with what. Its horrifying.They (aas) are now seen as a panacea for every teenage boys problems, " ill be more popular, get more girls when im big"

The first big name bb who admitted use(and i saw many) was Mentzer.He openly admitted use at a seminar in london in 1980.There was no great backlash.In fact after the dust settled , he was commended for his honesty.Interestingly, a week previously, Franco Columbo atribbuted his sucess to vitamin c!

My advice to James would be to be open about usage(not specific, regarding dose etc) but to state that they are not going to turn your average bb into a champ, and that an effective dietry and training programme, will get them as far as they can go.

To satisfy everyone may prove to be a heculean task,good luck james.


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## roy (Feb 8, 2009)

TOP POST AND A CRACKING REPLY.... OH AND IF HE DOES NOT WANT HIS FREE CONSULTATION PUT MY NAME DOWN,,,,


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## jordan2jones (Mar 7, 2008)

After reading James's contest prep i thought it was a very emotional story, there was no need for dosages products etc he was using, it was his story and the feelings he encountered along his journey. It gave the reader what type of work ethic this guy went through and gave up to get that a pro card.

You read any top sports persons autobigoraphy, rugby stars, sprinters american footballers etc etc etc do any of these renowned stars list the drugs they use quantities they take NO they dont, so why the hell is it seen that bodybuilders should list and document everything they use its bull crap.

I'd much prefer to have the likes of James representing the sport instead of the stereo typical, (ill use the term juice heads) who like everyone in the gym to know what they are chucking in them brandinshing the sport with the bad publicity which all so often is attached to 'Bodybuilding'


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## LeeB (Oct 5, 2011)

just like to say i thought the article was excellent and in fact quite inspirational, the way it read to me was not "this is my contest prep for 09" but more the journey of an established champion taking a step back and looking at what he needed to do in order to become a member of what in fact is the worlds elite... and achieving that goal.

with the above in mind.. why on earth would AAS be mentioned?? as im sure 90% of competitors would say this particular journey was not in any way shape or form about having to take X,Y or Z to achieve that! and the simple fact that you DIDNT touch on AAS in the article shows to people who want to achieve what you have that AAS use is not the be all and end all of becoming one of the worlds elite! and if AAS were mentioned it would have taken away from the mental and physical hard work and discipline that was quite obviously present throughout!

dont think its been pointed out yet... but you actually dropped DOWN a weight class this year... are we to assume that obvious AAS use did this? a little contradictory i think!


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## stevie flynn (Sep 5, 2006)

"James a well worded calm reply, i am sure i would not be so polite"

paul, i would have loved to read your reply mate!!! lol

I know mike phillips, and he's a decent bloke, so im flumoxed as to why he's got a bee in his bonett about this...

james, your reply was perfect mate, and anyone who knows you, has nuthin but 100% respect for the guy you are...

ask james if he uses gear and he will reply 'yes'

ask 'certain' natural guys if they use gear and they will say 'no'

so whos' being dishonest and deceitful here?? certainly not mr llewelyn

the npa and other natural feds need to get off the high horse and clean up its own act before lashing out at others..

steve


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## iron head case (Jul 2, 2008)

I read and enjoyed James article in the Beef, it was a breath of fresh air and different than the usual mundane tripe.In fact the Beef has improved IMO and there were lots of familiar faces popping up like T.Tom and P.Scarb adding to the mix.

James comes across as intelligent and charismatic in his writing.

To be fair to M.J.P and the N.P.A and the BNBF

Its a really a hard job keeping things clean and as its already been touched on, tests can be beaten, you only have to look at the detection charts on Steroid.com to realise most orals are clear within 4 weeks and eca clen 1-2 weeks.

Natural shows are run on Honesty and in my opinion, many abuse the system.

Also who is buying all these kits that clear you and why is there a demand?


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## Hardtimes (Mar 23, 2009)

I think it was a very good question and a very good answer and I think asking it would open the eyes/doors to people realising the good sides or AAS and how common they are.

At first I thought it was a weird question to be asking as its so obvious and wondered why he would be asking you this now but then I realised..

This guy obviously has massive respect for you as he trusts you to answer this sensitive question in a way that benefits all.

I would be far from offended, I would be chuffed to bits that of all the journalists he picked you for a well balanced and educated answer.

Good work to the pair of you.

- Hopefully raising the subject will help other people around gain a mutual understanding on the best ways to deal with these things and why they are dealt with this way. - I think this is the real message that should be taken away


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## uknumbr14 (Sep 24, 2007)

To be honest i think hes asked james the question and james has answered, i dont think theres really an argument in regards to How dare he ask a question like that etc etc,,He did and to be fair if james did not want to answer then he wouldnt have.

Obviously stating drug use on a magazine that kids/adults read is not reality, it has the law associated with it, if an athlete wants to be open about there drug use then thats up to them and, on forums/ face to face etc james and many others are open about it.

Like said previously i think its more about a natty with the typical argument thats reoccurs and will always exist, they see someone in a magazine promoting themsleves and doing well and the instant thing to say is " well theyre only at that level because of steroids" Now id love to see nattys spread all over magazines(and you do) with exceptional shapes as they would have worked their nuts off to get like that, However demoting an athelete who works just as hard/some harder to be on that magazine because of steroid use in my opinion makes no sense.

Two great athletes and good guys who are assests to the sport, just a shame really he felt the need to go down that road. Keep up the good work James


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## delhibuilder (Mar 24, 2008)

any pics if this guy? still surpised the Michael wrote with some repect.


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## d4ead (Nov 3, 2008)

yeh, i think maybe he's a lil dim for not realising why they don't write about it in magazines id have thought that was pretty obvious.

Morally they do say an omission of the truth is the same as a lie. So i do see his point in a way, especially in the case of advertising other supplements.

Personally my only real view on all of this was how nice it is for a pro to take the time to respond to such a email in such a patient and understanding way.

So thanks you for being that guy.


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## dmcc (Nov 25, 2007)

A very measured and thoughtful response James.

The world needs more people like you.


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## buffguymart (Apr 12, 2008)

This whole thread is so frustrating and annoying......I have trained and in the early days, PT'ed two of todays biggest "natural" bodybuilding stars, one of whom, is now known as Mr Hollywood and can be regularly seen on the natural circuit and on LA Muscle reporting on various events around the world. Michael Phillips, If two of your biggest ambassadors to the natural sport are "pulling the wool over your eyes"...and still are, maybe you should concentrate as Paul Scraborough has already said, on cleaning out your own house, rather than interfering in a federation which is sticking by and within "its" own rules. It is common knowledge that the large majority of "natural" event winners are indeed "not natural" and while this is the case the natural federations will attract even more "assisted" competitors in order to "keep up with the jones". I look forward to your response.


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## supercell (Aug 23, 2005)

I would like to thank everybody for there input and comments, its a fascinating topic and there have been some very good points on both sides of the fence.

It also means I dont have to think about my next column in the Beef so I have Micheal to thank for that!!!!!

A very good discussion has evolved from this and anything that gets people talking is great for the sport and gives everybody a better understanding of what's involved.

J


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## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

I want to ask why he targeted Bodybuilders etc etc

His question should have encompassed "all" high level perormance athletes..like say sprinters and cyclists etc

altho their drug use is not as commenly documented it is still as widespread and vitally important to the levels they achieve


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

I gotta say James, that was very well put together and you did a great job at answering Micheal's dig.

I think you are a good ambassador to the sport.

I remember on your first contest prep, that you told everyone that you wont be discussing the drugs due to the comp.

That I felt at the time was a wise move.

Damn James, you write well.


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## ragahav (Jun 11, 2008)

Hello James,

well Michael was right in saying that "you can write too" ...well you sure have way with words .very good and apt reply, shows why you are one of the most respected bodybuilders  .


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## chrisj22 (Mar 22, 2006)

Fair question with an equally fair answer.

I don't think Michael was having a 'pop' (who knows, he may have been, but in a way he didn't want to show) - he seems interested, that's all.

But James is right; he's now a pro. You don't see Kai Green, Jay Cutler etc etc openly discussing their AAS use.

Maybe Michael should have thought of that before e-mailing James...


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## Ex-SRD (Sep 9, 2008)

James - you know my view on this.

In the ideal world where people are not judgmental and accept steroid use, this would lead to them be accepted in sport (any sport) and we could discuss their use. However, we do not live in Utopia and steroid and maligned and their prejudice is rife (and I have personally been on the receiving end of steroid prejudice more than most - but that's a long story for another time). If you want to be a name in this sport you cannot discuss their use in any way.

You have to stay shtum and the whole issue is not up for comment. Mentioning AS will do you no favours and you will probably never even know.

My advice to James would be to remove any mention of them where possible and never publically say anything or it will come back and bite your ****.

I agree with you guys, I really do. But James has to decide whether he wants to move on in the sport, or provide sound advice on safe AS use. There are plenty of others to do the latter.


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## Golden Man (Sep 10, 2005)

Knowing mr philips and peoples views on natural bodybuilding and testing I know he was not having a dig,bearring in mind there are who help natural shows who are assisted.Basically it could have been worded differently but I see his point.People assume gear will make you big..forget the effort and the dieting that people have to do.Same as the stupid assumption that all naturals are " stringy ".Personally both views valid and conducted in a respectful manner.It would be silly to mention the drug usuage but saying whether you use it or not doesnt guarantee success.

Just my view.


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## Paul Amos (Mar 2, 2009)

buffguymart said:


> This whole thread is so frustrating and annoying......I have trained and in the early days, PT'ed two of todays biggest "natural" bodybuilding stars, one of whom, is now known as Mr Hollywood and can be regularly seen on the natural circuit and on LA Muscle reporting on various events around the world. Michael Phillips, If two of your biggest ambassadors to the natural sport are "pulling the wool over your eyes"...and still are, maybe you should concentrate as Paul Scraborough has already said, on cleaning out your own house, rather than interfering in a federation which is sticking by and within "its" own rules. It is common knowledge that the large majority of "natural" event winners are indeed "not natural" and while this is the case the natural federations will attract even more "assisted" competitors in order to "keep up with the jones". I look forward to your response.


Rob is a close friend of mine and to offer his name up in a conversation of this nature on a public forum with comments like that is out of order pal. The purpose of James posting this as far as i can see; wasn`t for people to put a slur on individual characters, but rather as a constructive talking point and to create a better understanding for the good of everybody


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## hilly (Jan 19, 2008)

dutch_scott said:


> James
> 
> I appretiate Michael feels very strongly on these points and as you were gracious enough to answer him could you please take my comments and add your rebutal at a time suitable to you.
> 
> ...


LMAO

just watched the dvd james and it was awesome ive watched it twice and only got it thursday


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## Mars (Aug 25, 2007)

Great reply,

I was about to make the point as to wether Michael had read any of the mainstream BBing mags.


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## Chownie (May 29, 2006)

I don't really see the point of the email. I've known Michael for years from the ANB days thought it's pretty obvious James being a pro he's not going to write an article on what he takes, how he takes it etc. As people say, you won't see it in Flex, MD etc. so why The Beef? He has always been honest on the forums and in person and James is such a nice bloke, always look forward to seeing him at shows. He's a pro now and has a big sponsor so has to be careful. Good reply anyway James, always the professional.

I'm a top natural bodybuilder and do get p*ssed about non natural competitors competing in natural shows, it's the lowest of the low especially when you have a choice to compete in untested shows. I know there are plenty of people slipping through the net by using gear at natural shows, a few top ones ( I know a few from good sources) but would love to know some others (pscarb, give me the gos lol). I'm sure I've come up against plenty of users in the natural shos I've done, just pleased that i managed to kick there ****s anyway haha

Also hate natural guys slagging of users. If people want to use gear, good luck to them, they compete in non tested shows, it's part of the game. I hear some naturals knocking the classic class saying that some guys use the gear. So what? It's part of the game. I choose to stay natural so compete on the natural side. Although would like to try a non tested show and see how I would do.

Hope I havent waffled on and i make sense 

Peter Chown

www.naturalphysique.co.uk


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## MJP (May 1, 2009)

Hello James

Good to read my e-mail has a response or two...I was surprised to find it posted up on here, as I had no intention of taking it beyond the pair of us, but now you've posted it up here, I may as well post here in reply. I'm surprised at some of the comments on here...'slam a pro'...'attack on a Pro athlete'...that's a bit harsh and not true as it happens, as I meant no offence to you, I simply asked a question or two. Yes, I am actively involved in the promotion of Natural BB through the NPA and have been for years now, its something I am very proud of, but I do know a lot of folk who have taken gear, in fact my best man at my wedding was also a training partner of mine for years, and took all sorts, but he was still my good mate too. I also used to compete in NABBA and EFBB a few years ago, and attended countless shows, and I'll be at the NABBA Norh East in 2 weeks to cheer on friends (some Natural, some not) who are competing, my point is I have always loved bodybuilding, full stop. I don't like the drug side of the sport but that's the way it is, and good luck to all competitors when and wherever you wish to compete.

My point in my e-mail to you was there was no mention whatsover of any aas use...I am not after your detailed use (none of my business) but in such an article surely just one line should have been said.

Saying that, I perfectly understand your reply, you have answered me in the right way, and I appreciate the fact you took the time to respond to me, as you say, some of your fellow athletes would have ignored me. As you say, its obviously an unsaid and unwritten rule to talk about such things.

On another point brought up by yourself and by others posting on this thread, you mention so called Natural athletes who cheat, to put it bluntly...now this is the lowest form of competitor, I know most people will agree with me on that one, so don't you and the others who posted along the same lines, think that information that you know to be true should be passed on the relevent associations who are trying to keep the sport clean, and who drug test too? Shouldn't there be an obligation to do so?

I have read and heard a number of people over the years comment that there are cheats in Nat BB yet very rarely will they back it up (in confidence of course) and name names so the matter can be taken further. Yes, people will unfortunately cheat, they must be very sad individuals to do so to win a trophy, knowing full well they shouldn't have even competed in the first place.

Everybody would like to compete on a level playing field, James. Your federation is not the fairest one of all to a Natural bodybuilder, and I do not speak from an 'holier than thou' standpoint, this is a fact. I know that myself and my colleagues in the NPA will do our best to keep Natural Bodybuilding as clean as we can, just thought I would mention that as reading some of the post on this thread they imply that we don't!

Good luck with The Beef column, and with competing with the IFBB in the future. I'll keep reading with interest,

Michael Phillips


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## flatout.com (Jun 6, 2008)

group hug  xxx


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## supercell (Aug 23, 2005)

MJP said:


> Hello James
> 
> Good to read my e-mail has a response or two...I was surprised to find it posted up on here, as I had no intention of taking it beyond the pair of us, but now you've posted it up here, I may as well post here in reply. I'm surprised at some of the comments on here...'slam a pro'...'attack on a Pro athlete'...that's a bit harsh and not true as it happens, as I meant no offence to you, I simply asked a question or two. Yes, I am actively involved in the promotion of Natural BB through the NPA and have been for years now, its something I am very proud of, but I do know a lot of folk who have taken gear, in fact my best man at my wedding was also a training partner of mine for years, and took all sorts, but he was still my good mate too. I also used to compete in NABBA and EFBB a few years ago, and attended countless shows, and I'll be at the NABBA Norh East in 2 weeks to cheer on friends (some Natural, some not) who are competing, my point is I have always loved bodybuilding, full stop. I don't like the drug side of the sport but that's the way it is, and good luck to all competitors when and wherever you wish to compete.
> 
> ...


Firstly Michael, many thanks for registering on here and posting your response, I am glad you did.

Secondly I agree on all your points in the above response but as you will accept, unfortunately we do not live in an ideal world and have to sometimes contend with predjudices of many and unwritten rules of some.

Writing such things for me in my article '1 step ahead' would in my humble opinion just add fuel to the fire to the public's perception of bodybuilders and with that they would forget, or choose to ignore, the time and effort taken to build a winning physique. Not only would these perceptions have exptended to my federation but also to yours and other natural federations.

Drugs in sport have always and will always be present and no matter how rigorous the testing people will slip through and cheat in federations such as yours.

I admire natural athletes just as much as I admire those that chose to take performance enhancers; like you said its a personal choice and all the time it is legal to take such PED's then there are no legal implications either, its just simply personal choice.

I would like to offer you the chance to watch my DVD, I will send one free of charge to you if you PM me or email me your address. You know, I am sure, the work required to get 'right down' and go to those 'very dark places' in the final few weeks and my DVD higlights these and will also give you a chance to get to know me a little better and my passion for the sport.

I for one think this has been a very positive exercise for everyone and with your permission I would like to use our correspondence in the next issue of the Beef along with a selection ( balanced ones I may add) of the responses of others.

If you are happy with this I will submit to you what I will be putting forward for printing and you can say 'yes' or 'no' to it. If you are not entirely happy then I will of course find something else to go into my next column. Your agreement to this is obviously vital Michael.

I may well be at one of your NPA shows with Fivos this year so it will give me a chance to see how things work in the NPA and if you are present, a chance for us to introduce ourselves.

Thanks again for your reply Michael

J


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## mick_the_brick (Oct 29, 2008)

Interesting read IMO


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## Rudedog (Jan 14, 2009)

Good thread


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## Diamond (Jul 28, 2007)

Personally James, I think you've been very generous and most gracious in your response. In itself, I think this speaks volumes about you as a person and what you represent.

Having read the original e-mail, I am amazed that Michael Phillips had the temerity to accuse you of being 'economical with the truth'. I have always found you to be honest and up-front; one of the most, if not the most open bodybuilders around, with regard to drug use. I have read your threads on this forum, which provide, in the most intricate detail, your approach to preparing for competition. For those who are interested, surely this is evidence enough of your honesty and commitment to the sport of bodybuilding. None of these accounts present any benign attempt to deceive or be 'economical with the truth', quite the opposite in fact.

The expression 'economical with the truth' is an interesting one, for the fact it reveals Michael Phillips as a hypocrite of the highest order. The Natural Physique Association (NPA), a self-proclaimed 'natural for life' organisation, adopts an untenable position, which in practice makes a mockery of the notion of 'truth' and honesty. As I ponder the meaning of the slogan, I wonder what test is 'out there' to uphold the claim of 'natural for life'. Maybe Michael should bear this in mind when he next reflects upon how innocent youngsters peruse the magazines, admiring so-called natural physiques, on the understanding that such fine specimens are life-time natural. As several have already noted earlier in this thread, the natural scene is awash with physiques that are enhanced, which serve to corrupt the sport and deceive those who regard such champions as bona fide naturals. Moreover, contrary to the claim in Michael's response above, when people choose to point out these shortcomings they are often berated for 'causing trouble' or being unduly negative. This begs the question as to whether the natural scene is actually intent on cleaning up its act? Or, indeed, is this yet another elaborate deception?

In the end, which is more honest (or least economical with the truth)? The assisted body that masquerades as a so-called natural and is lauded as a natural champion, or the assisted athlete who competes in an open federation (un-tested), but does so with the highest integrity?


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## Ex-SRD (Sep 9, 2008)

James, we should talk about this when we next meet mate


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## SHAROOTS (Nov 22, 2007)

Great read m8, its also good that Michael has joined the forum too.


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## hilly (Jan 19, 2008)

I am sorry but i personally dont think that their should be any mention of james AAS use be it 1 line or 1 page in a magazine that can and will be bought by young impressionable people who may and most likely will take it out of context.

Yes they may have access to similar info via the web but i dont think its suitable for a magazine personally. their are several other reasons already mention in this thread which are just as valid however i feel this is a very important one.

James as far as i am aware from reading many many old threads of his trained for a long time without AAS and has always used very little. for him to mention it in his article means it is likely a young lad will see it and jump staight on the band wagon without taking into consideration all the hard work and natural training put in before AAs use was started.

I would love to see the pro's talk about their use in magazines but they never will because they wont want to discuss their tricks so to speak etc but also because of the negative reasons of on the younger generation and the sport.



MJP said:


> Hello James
> 
> Good to read my e-mail has a response or two...I was surprised to find it posted up on here, as I had no intention of taking it beyond the pair of us, but now you've posted it up here, I may as well post here in reply. I'm surprised at some of the comments on here...'slam a pro'...'attack on a Pro athlete'...that's a bit harsh and not true as it happens, as I meant no offence to you, I simply asked a question or two. Yes, I am actively involved in the promotion of Natural BB through the NPA and have been for years now, its something I am very proud of, but I do know a lot of folk who have taken gear, in fact my best man at my wedding was also a training partner of mine for years, and took all sorts, but he was still my good mate too. I also used to compete in NABBA and EFBB a few years ago, and attended countless shows, and I'll be at the NABBA Norh East in 2 weeks to cheer on friends (some Natural, some not) who are competing, my point is I have always loved bodybuilding, full stop. I don't like the drug side of the sport but that's the way it is, and good luck to all competitors when and wherever you wish to compete.
> 
> ...


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## stevie flynn (Sep 5, 2006)

Diamond...

brilliant post mate....

steve


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

James, MJP cant PM yet.

You can go through me if you like: [email protected]


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## MJP (May 1, 2009)

Thanks for your e-mail to me James, and for your comment on here too. As I said I meant no offence to you but unfortunately some people think otherwise, notably Dr. Dean 'Diamond;' Garratt. Well, Dean, it doesn't surprise me that you're still tryiong to discredit me as a person, and the NPA as an association, people obviously don't know you on here, and what you're like. The fact is all your talk is just talk, no facts, and no proof of any of your allegations, as usual - the shame is some people will take on board your comments and believe them to be true - we might as well all drown in a sea of cynicism if we all listen to you. We both know what your agenda really is, but you're not worth any more effort or comment from me as I know what you're like, so please yourself what you say. I have only just joined on here, so I'll say no more to you.

To the others who have commented, good or bad, thank you.

'Personally James, I think you've been very generous and most gracious in your response. In itself, I think this speaks volumes about you as a person and what you represent.

Having read the original e-mail, I am amazed that Michael Phillips had the temerity to accuse you of being 'economical with the truth'. I have always found you to be honest and up-front; one of the most, if not the most open bodybuilders around, with regard to drug use. I have read your threads on this forum, which provide, in the most intricate detail, your approach to preparing for competition. For those who are interested, surely this is evidence enough of your honesty and commitment to the sport of bodybuilding. None of these accounts present any benign attempt to deceive or be 'economical with the truth', quite the opposite in fact.

The expression 'economical with the truth' is an interesting one, for the fact it reveals Michael Phillips as a hypocrite of the highest order. The Natural Physique Association (NPA), a self-proclaimed 'natural for life' organisation, adopts an untenable position, which in practice makes a mockery of the notion of 'truth' and honesty. As I ponder the meaning of the slogan, I wonder what test is 'out there' to uphold the claim of 'natural for life'. Maybe Michael should bear this in mind when he next reflects upon how innocent youngsters peruse the magazines, admiring so-called natural physiques, on the understanding that such fine specimens are life-time natural. As several have already noted earlier in this thread, the natural scene is awash with physiques that are enhanced, which serve to corrupt the sport and deceive those who regard such champions as bona fide naturals. Moreover, contrary to the claim in Michael's response above, when people choose to point out these shortcomings they are often berated for 'causing trouble' or being unduly negative. This begs the question as to whether the natural scene is actually intent on cleaning up its act? Or, indeed, is this yet another elaborate deception?

In the end, which is more honest (or least economical with the truth)? The assisted body that masquerades as a so-called natural and is lauded as a natural champion, or the assisted athlete who competes in an open federation (un-tested), but does so with the highest integrity?'


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## Diamond (Jul 28, 2007)

MJP said:


> Well, Dean, it doesn't surprise me that you're still tryiong to discredit me as a person, and the NPA as an association, people obviously don't know you on here, and what you're like. The fact is all your talk is just talk, no facts, and no proof of any of your allegations, as usual - the shame is some people will take on board your comments and believe them to be true - we might as well all drown in a sea of cynicism if we all listen to you. We both know what your agenda really is, ...


Discredit you and the NPA, Michael? Far from it, you are perfectly adept at doing this as dictator of the NPA and chief promoter of so-called natural for life bodybuilding. The un-doing is all your own work.

If drawing attention to the charade of natural bodybuilding is my agenda, then so be it. Clearly, I am not alone in recognising the pretense for what it is.

The question of facts and proof is an interesting one for the fact that judgements are often applied inconsistently. So, where in some cases people are deemed ineligible for membership on the strength of someone's word or a piece of inside information, in other contexts the word of an 'informant' may be considered unreliable or simply 'just talk, no proof, no facts'. The question then, is what counts as reliable and trustworthy? And who decides? In the absence of a test, who makes the final judgement?

I know first hand of someone who was banned because an inside 'friend' revealed some information based on a casual conversation. Yet in other circumstances a chat with someone's mum is all that's needed to establish trust and alay suspicion. You can see how I'm curious as to where the 'economy of truth' and trustworthiness fits in here?

So, is this really a 'sea of cynicism' or just a deep curiosity? I am simply unable to reconcile these apparent inconsistencies. What is more damaging is the fact that people on the outside aren't always aware of how decisions are reached and this is due to an overwhelming lack of transparency.

Surely the bottom line is honesty, Michael ... the very point raised in your original e-mail to James.


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## iron head case (Jul 2, 2008)

LOL Dean and M.J.P Crossing swords,

It reminds me of the film (Highlander)

:laugh:

Going back to the topic, Any sponsored athlete would be advised by their sponsors to act in a professional way and mentioning steroids would take some of the focus from the supplements they are endorsing.

We all know Ronnie Coleman used a little more than the no xplode and cell mass stack and that Jay Cutler was already winning trophies before muscle tech made him the first million dollar sponsored body builder.

I can see Michael"s point of view though and its unfortunate that teens are using gear more and more now, i suppose because of the internet, steroids are easy to get hold of now and people talk about them like its having a cup of tea or similar.

I know the natural feds test on show days, but surely this is a big waste of money? Some one taking gear or clen/eca would stop taking it a couple of weeks before the show and would p1ss clean.

Surely only a complete idiot would use up till a show day?

Whats the solution to testing for cheats? Who knows, its a tough job and the majority of people will always remain cynical inc myself.

I collect old bodybuilding magazines and when i look at the Mr Americas from the 40s 50s and early 60s (pre gear era) some of the natural junior and novice champions would not look out of place along side them.

Surely food has not changed that much or am i not giving supplements and modern training any credit?


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## Diamond (Jul 28, 2007)

Mark, I agree with your points, although I must emphasise that my argument is not a digression. Surely, the point, which goes back to the original e-mail, is one to do with honesty and integrity. The accusation levelled was that in failing to disclose information about drug-cycles, James had in some way been economical with truth and by implication tacitly dishonest.

My argument, which supports your point, Mark, is that there's an inconsistency here. The natural (for life) physique cannot be taken at face value. I think the comparison made between today's natural physiques, especially in the top echelon, bears close resemblance to many top IFBB athletes competing in the late 1970s and early 1980s: guys like Padilla, Makkaway, Bannout, Zane etc. These guys weren't that heavy and yet it is unlikely they were lifetime natural. Logically, what does this suggest?

So, in the end, which position is least honest? The one that pretends there isn't a problem and carries on regardless, or the other which openly acknowledges bodybuilding for what it is? You know, I recently read Dwain Chambers' new book and it was fascinating, in the sense that it merely confirmed my prejudices about what goes on in top-flight athletics. Hardly revelatory, I know, but in my view there's a strong connection between what goes on here and the smokescreen that continues to cover natural bodybuilding.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Wow, some eloquent posts, I bet a couple of you guys are writers.


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## Ex-SRD (Sep 9, 2008)

Diamond - what's Dwaine Chambers' new book called? I wouldn't mind a read


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## Diamond (Jul 28, 2007)

Mr Story Dwain Chambers - Race against me ... very good.


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## thebull1436114614 (Mar 17, 2009)

This topic was not about cheats natural bodybuilding, it was about James not mentioning AAS usage in his article. Hes replied very well and shown his ability to communicate well as a pro.

Once again however this has been turned into a "lets bash natural bodybuilding" thread.

Dean (Diamond) I have a great deal of respect for what you achieved in your time in natural bodybuilding but frankly coming back and picking faults in Michael whenever you can is getting quite tiresome. Your a very smart bloke and have one of the best physiques ever to tread the natural boards, but to keep reading that the NPA is a farce is wearing.

-YES there are cheats

-YES the federation claims to be natural for life and cant always deliver on that

-YES it all seems hypocritical to put these natural pictures in the magazines even though some guys are not

BUT

-IF everyones attitude was "the NPA is a farce" no one would compete and wed have no natural platform to stand on

-Everyone knows the cost of testing and in an amateur sport there is barely enough money to cover show costs let alone catching cheats

- IF someone chooses to compete and there morale lies with "natural for life" status, they only have one federation as an option that preeches it. A lot of people that compete do it for personal change its not always about being top dog.

Your point about naturals being like the guys from the 60s and 70s may be true, but training and nutrition has come a long way and people can now achieve a lot more drug free.

Im not naive I know there are cheats out there, I know for a fact iv competed against one. Im just tired of this bashing of the NPA. A lot of good genuine people put a lot of there own free time in to make it grow and comments like the above are an insult to them.

On a side not I will say I have no personal issue with you Dean either, like I said your achievements, knowledge and physique have my respect. Just your attitude towards the NPA doesnt.

-


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## Diamond (Jul 28, 2007)

You are, of course, entitled to your opinion, Pete. I do, however, feel you are missing a bigger point. This is not about NPA bashing but rather how the lead figure of a natural organisation can accuse an essentially honest IFBB pro of being economical with the truth, when there are so many un-truths and distortions circulating natural bodybuilding. There is an undeniable sense of hypocrisy here, which you may choose to acknowledge or not. Try this for example: if James is obliged to reveal his AAS use, then is there not a similar imperative for the NPA to become more open and transparent with its members?


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## thebull1436114614 (Mar 17, 2009)

"More open and transparent with its members"

Are you suggesting they promote the federation as "Natural for life- With the exception of a few" Because that shore as hell wont work! lol

What do you suggest the NPA do to be more open with members? They shouldnt have to be its a natural federation. Its advertised as a natural federation, it tests like a natural federation, its policy is not 2 years drug free like that of musclemania. They set there stall out to be a natural federation and I dont think it should have to come to anything other than that.

As for Michael asking James the question, to be honest im surprised no one in the past has asked any IFBB Pro this. In fact I bet they have, just on this occasion its been made public. Come on I bet you have read articles in the past and thought, ok this guys achieved this on the back of hard training, but whats he taken to get the edge?

The hypocrisy you speek of was never an issue till you made something more of it. No one mentioned the credibility of the NPA until you (as usual) bought your personal agenda against MJP to the fore. James is not obliged to reveal anything personal, just as the NPA shouldnt have to explain why people choose to compete in their federation.

and speeking of hypocrisy try this discussion:

Natural fed opinionist: "Natural federations are full of users, I know a few for sure"

Natural federation: "O thats great, you can help us then who are they so we can clean up the sport as drug testing alone wont do"

Natural fed opinionist: "O no im not going to do that its not my place"

Natural federation: "Ok cheers then you just keep on laughing"

Sigh....


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## iron head case (Jul 2, 2008)

Hi Pete,

I think Rob Riches or the Hollywood L.A Muscle guy (as they put it) was named in this thread as a natural cheat.


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## thebull1436114614 (Mar 17, 2009)

Hey Iron

Hope the lincs is coming together well. Not named directly but enough to suggest its him. I was quite shocked to be fair that someone came forward and all respect to them for saying something for a change.


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## iron head case (Jul 2, 2008)

thebull said:


> Hey Iron
> 
> Hope the lincs is coming together well. Not named directly but enough to suggest its him. I was quite shocked to be fair that someone came forward and all respect to them for saying something for a change.


I agree with you Pete,

that if people know cheats, they should email or pm Michael and let him know.

Anyone can say i know someone that's a natural that uses,

words are cheap.

The npa have a website and i am sure Michael"s contact details are available.

http://www.npabodybuilding.com/

Here is the link


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## Golden Man (Sep 10, 2005)

:ban: :ban: :ban: :cursing: :cursing: I thought I had escaped.MJP and James I feel that you hould have kept this amongst yourselves.Solely because it gives upity self righteous people a platform to air their personal views (no directed at anybody particularly unless you fit that description) and at the end of the day yes James uses gear etc but then again he knows his stuff regards nutrition ad training and yes there are cheats in natural bodybuilding and cheats in all other sports.

The sport is small enough doesn't need internal wranglings.MJP and James keep up the good work and hopefully tis thread is closed as I can see it getting personal.


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## stevie flynn (Sep 5, 2006)

"The hypocrisy you speek of was never an issue till you made something more of it. No one mentioned the credibility of the NPA until you (as usual) bought your personal agenda "

thebull... the above statement is not true.. its not just deans personal opinion..go back and re-read this whole thread.. its the opinion of lots of people..

if you want to try marginalise dean by suggesting he has issues with the npa, then go ahead mate, but there are MANY people who have the same opinion as dean with regards to the hipocrisy within sections of natural bodybuilding..

and to suggest we name and shame offenders?? get real pal... we aint doing the dirty work for you..

its down to the npa and other natural feds to up there game, and work harder to to catch these people who cheat true naturals out of trophys..

steve


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## thebull1436114614 (Mar 17, 2009)

Steve im talking more about the guys that claim natural bb is a farce then dont bother to help out. Its annoying from a competitors point of view. Surely the dirty work is done by those that choose to compete unfairly?

There was no need for this to become a naturals arent clean thread and maybe we should draw the line here. I know you are a big supporter of the sport so I respect your opinion, but what do you suggest naturals feds do to clean up the problem further?

As for Dean im not marginalising him, but he seems to stay clear of the boards and then as soon as a debate like this comes up involving michael he pops up to question him. Michael shouldnt have to defend himself all the time after the hard work hes put in. Im well aware people share Deans opinions. I myself share some of his views on how clean athletes are. However Im the sort of person that prefers to productively sort these issues rather than jump up and say "what a farce this all is"

I enjoy competeing in the NPA and BNBF whether there are cheats or not. Its a small enough sport and Il never be competitive in the UKBFF or NABBA so when I see a good federation full of good selfless people getting put down it gets to me.

Il say it again, no personal beef with anyone, just standing up for the sport.


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## Diamond (Jul 28, 2007)

stevie flynn said:


> "The hypocrisy you speek of was never an issue till you made something more of it. No one mentioned the credibility of the NPA until you (as usual) bought your personal agenda "
> 
> thebull... the above statement is not true.. its not just deans personal opinion..go back and re-read this whole thread.. its the opinion of lots of people..
> 
> ...


Thanks Steve, it's appreciated.

Pete, believe me you don't know the half of it. You are right about one thing, however. Michael shouldn't have to defend himself all of the time and, indeed, wouldn't need to if he was honest, fair and consistent.


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## MJP (May 1, 2009)

Words are cheap indeed Mark, especially when some people are talking...

Ok, last word from me, Dean. For a University lecturer like yourself the written word comes easy to you, but its a pity what you write can't be backed up. Its a real shame you wish to destroy all the good work done by others but I'm sure you won't change, so carry on, nothing you say against me will phase me, I'll carry on regardless, and we'll see how the NPA goes this year and in the future.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

I am closing this thread, it ran its course and it pretty much got off topic anyway.

Thanks for all the post guys, I appreciate it, I think it is just best for the sport to close this thread...

sorry


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## Tinytom (Sep 16, 2005)

This thread reminds me of the old UKM.com arguments. Great to see some of the old faces here.


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