# Maintaining size whilst off steroids



## TaintedSoul (May 16, 2007)

Using HGH and insulin and maybe IGF although have no experience with IGF. What would most sugest is the best way to hold onto gains whilst off steroids.

HGH EOD + insulin with meals? or also EOD with growth.

Trying to find the best way along with PCT to get through comming off and untill next course which could be awhile.


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## TaintedSoul (May 16, 2007)

nik said:


> dont understand your q pal have you worded it wrong


Dont think I have? :confused1:


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## Guest (Mar 18, 2009)

I am going to use short and long acting slin, metaform, proviron, igf, gh and lots of natural stuff like dhea PMSL i am very obsessive about trying to keep muscle when i do come off!!


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## Eat_Train_Sleep (Jan 13, 2009)

nik why are you posting then on this thread if you havnt got any constructive info to give and clearly dont understand the terms like igf, pct, aas, hgh ect? ..


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## Guest (Mar 18, 2009)

nik said:


> i must be f***** in the head then cause that makes no sense
> 
> or also eod with growth ?????????
> 
> must be me


 If you dont understand why are you posting:confused1: i guess you like to read your own words or some thing:rolleyes:


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## GHS (Oct 6, 2008)

Troll in the making me thinks 

With an avvy like that on this site he should go a long way.......

Tainted I'd keep the GH at every other day, cant comment on the slin or IGF as I don't know much about them.

With those 3, decent diet, good training and a solid PCT you should maintain good size mate 

GHS


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## Eat_Train_Sleep (Jan 13, 2009)

You have to earn respect not just demand it mate, as con said i assume you like reading your own words?


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## GHS (Oct 6, 2008)

nik said:


> oh 19 year old boy i got kids your age and been usin aas the same .some f****** respect


 :lol:

Great attitude to have on this forum mate.

Why would I show somebody like you respect?

I can't see you lasting long.

GHS


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## Guest (Mar 18, 2009)

Well this has nicely fvcked the thread!

Tainted what were you thinking of doing?

I am torn between fast slin/gh on training days only which will be 3 days per week and long slin and gh every day to start with.

Still have about 4 months till i worry about this lol but i want to be ready as i will stay off for 6 months. Just because the aas is stopped doesnt mean the drugs have to stop LMAO


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## El Ricardinho (May 30, 2008)

you dont seem like you want to give any nik. lose the chip on your shoulder.


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## Jimmy1 (Aug 14, 2003)

nik banned and posts deleted

carry on guys

back on topic


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## MasterBlaster (Dec 6, 2008)

GHS said:


> :lol:
> 
> Great attitude to have on this forum mate.
> 
> ...


I guess you called that one... :innocent:


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## GHS (Oct 6, 2008)

Well done Jimmy 

This is a very interesting thread and I'd love to hear some more replies.

GHS


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## hilly (Jan 19, 2008)

i will be testing how i respond to long acting slin while on a low dose of test cruise. as long as i am happy with results etc i am going to add in short acting slin. my idea is to get it right while on cycle then use it when i come off and throw some growth in their as well.

I believe db has used short acting slin with meals during pct and inbetween cycles.


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## Jimmy1 (Aug 14, 2003)

imo short acting slin is far easier to control

long slin spikes all day long with no telling when and where

thats how i felt on it aryway


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## Tiger81 (May 4, 2007)

I will be doing this myself but without the GH or igf.

Used igf before and felt i did keep my gains but this could have just been down to good/careful diet and training...

Slin deffo a good one for pct imo, keeps you anabolic but without the crash on hpta. Ill prob be doing 2x a day on training days, hammer the supps too. Should be fine.........how long can this last haha


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## TaintedSoul (May 16, 2007)

Thanks for cleaning up the thread Jimmy.



Con said:


> I am going to use short and long acting slin, metaform, proviron, igf, gh and lots of natural stuff like dhea PMSL i am very obsessive about trying to keep muscle when i do come off!!


Why metaform Con, or you using long in the morning, metaformin with meals and fast acting with PWO. I know KingProp like metaform with meals.

dhea?? have I missed out on something to play with?? :confused1:



GHS said:


> Tainted I'd keep the GH at every other day, cant comment on the slin or IGF as I don't know much about them.


2009 with be non stop use of growth. 8iu EOD and I plan to reduce training to a 9 day week so as to give body more rest. Though will trial that and see how I react.



Con said:


> Well this has nicely fvcked the thread!
> 
> Tainted what were you thinking of doing?
> 
> ...


Well as mentioned growth is going to be run the entire year. More than likely 8iu EOD doing a 9 day week program. Think you doing this now arent you? I feel off steroids I need more recovery time.

Insulin side of things only messed about with fast acting. And to be honest when I was off steroids in November I ran it at 4iu with my first 3 meals and the PWO and I found I started having more energy, more stamina in my training session and a decent fullness in muscle.

Now long acting slin in the morning and IGF is something I havent played about with? If IGF can help hold onto thing I'm all for it.

Obviosuly I'll run loads of ZMA, vitamins, GAKIC, NOS, AMINOS, Creatine and other off the shelf boring stuff for that 0.1% advantage :lol: :lol: :lol:

stay off for 6 months?? mg: why?



chilisi said:


> good question tainted..will be intereting to see what guys use/do to keep there gains..


Cheers mate. Maybe we can all learn something. Not nik as he thinks we talking another language here! PMSL :lol: :lol: :lol:

So yeah... my main goal to maintain as much as possible, I am not looking for a miracle formula to grow loads whilst off steroids. I would however like to create as healthy environment as possible for the growth of new cells that are ready to be matured rapidly on my next course end of summer. If that is possible.


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## Guest (Mar 19, 2009)

Will take 6 months off because if i am going to take a break i am going to make it count

I am going to get a lot of GHRP-6 and GHRH which i am going to run at 100mcg every 3 hours 6 times per day with slin (tests showed a 100kg male maxed out with this dosage and this is basically my weight). When i run this i will run long acting slin first thing in the am. I will run igf for the first 40 days at 50mcg in the am as this has been showing to help recovery of the hpta. Training 3 days per week will have 10iu gh/slin. Metaform will be used on periods that i dont use the before mentioned drugs just a small dose with meals according to an article i read by big A on promuscle this is a great way to keep muscles full. I will run proviron at least for some of the time to help with erections. Cialis will be run eod. Pct actual drugs will be discussed with some knowlagable mates of mine but probably will not be clomid and nolva rather it will be torm and ralox.

Low dose tyroid may be taken during certain periods if its deemed a good idea.

Yes i will be taking a **** load of things but every thing at reasonable doses this will give me some thing to keep busy with while giving my body a long break from aas.

Dhea is a debatable supplument some say its great others say its crap personally i pay $5 for a 1 month supply so i will throw it in i think it will help with sex drive.

Other natural stuff like animal test ext will be added in as i get given it(i have a sponsership with my local store and get things like this on the random to test for them).


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## hilly (Jan 19, 2008)

sounds like a plan con. I won t be coming off probs till you finish most of your 6 months so if you dont mind i will proberly be hitting you a good few PM's for advice.


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## Porky Pie (Aug 2, 2007)

Here's what I'll be doing, when I come off after what will be two and a half years on.

Full PCT, bit of zinc and trib - that's it. I can't be doing with all that other sh1t, doesn't do much for strength anyway. Training, resting and eating should be the main things to worry about, not having a hypo at 4am in the morning.

For me the key is being mentally strong and not becoming disheartened. Anyway, it'll be nice to fit into some normal clothes for a change.


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## glanzav (Sep 11, 2008)

you could run test prop as it doesnt effect your testosterone indulgence

i no a few guys that compete that do this

im gonna do 6 weeks igf-1 now

6 weeks hgh and fast acting slin

6 weeks hgh fast acting slin and 1ml of prop eod

thats after standard pct


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## TaintedSoul (May 16, 2007)

glanzav said:


> you could run test prop as it doesnt effect your testosterone indulgence
> 
> i no a few guys that compete that do this
> 
> ...


Come on mate, do you or these chaps you know seriously believe that. Any external testosterone be it short or long ester is going to supress the HPTA. In this case it's never going to come right as you never off.

If this was the case threads like this wouldnt be needed. But sadly we need to come off completely if we want to recover fully.


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## TaintedSoul (May 16, 2007)

DB said:


> IMO Slin in completely clean mate!
> 
> tbh, i see no reason not to use it... I'm not deluded, i know if I come off completely then I'll **** all my muscle out very quickly, I'm a ecto/meso naturally so my body would not want to sit at a lean 17 stone, it wants to be at a happy 13-14 stone so I'd struggle big time to maintain it... Insulin is a great way to hold onto a large majority of my gains..
> 
> ...


Cheers for the input DB. I think we have imliar body types as I started out basicaly anorexic and battle to maintain weight the longer I am off. I can loose weight so easily if I am not careful.

You make a good point about the long acting insulin, I'm very wary of using this too much. But twice a day of short acting slin woul dbe ideal if I can hold onto more gains.

You mention HGH not worth unless spending loads. If you were to do it now what doses would you consider beneficial for yourself?


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## GHS (Oct 6, 2008)

DB said:


> LMFAO!!!
> 
> Test prop doesn't affect natural test production? *u mugging me off?*
> 
> of course it does!!


 :lol:

Ye bruv are you mugging him off you little slaaaag?

Don't chat sh*t init! *said in a Danny Diar accent*

Didin't realise you were so gangsta DB :lol: 

GHS


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## Guest (Mar 19, 2009)

glanzav said:


> you could run test prop as it doesnt effect your testosterone indulgence
> 
> i no a few guys that compete that do this
> 
> ...


 LMAO! That is a little cycle mate but hey if you want to tell your self you have come off doing that be my guest:laugh::laugh::laugh:


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## GHS (Oct 6, 2008)

And he's only staying on the hgh for 12 weeks.

This will be of no benefit to you other than maybe loosing a little BF but thats it.

GHS


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## Guest (Mar 19, 2009)

GHS said:


> And he's only staying on the hgh for 12 weeks.
> 
> This will be of no benefit to you other than maybe loosing a little BF but thats it.
> 
> GHS


 This statement comes from extensive use of gh no doubt, you wouldnt be one of those forum parrots would you:whistling:


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## gym rat (Jul 10, 2007)

GHS said:


> And he's only staying on the hgh for 12 weeks.
> 
> This will be of no benefit to you other than maybe loosing a little BF but thats it.
> 
> GHS


 your statement is wrong mate. hes using it with slin, you dont stay on that combo for very lengthy periods of time


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## GHS (Oct 6, 2008)

Con said:


> This statement comes from extensive use of gh no doubt, you wouldnt be one of those forum parrots would you:whistling:


 :lol:

You got me.

But its sounds like ive done more research than that clown.

GHS


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## GHS (Oct 6, 2008)

gym rat said:


> your statement is wrong mate. hes using it with slin, you dont stay on that combo for very lengthy periods of time


 I wasn't reffering to the combo/slin though mate I was reffering to the HGH where you should stay on for at least 6 months.

GHS


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## toxo (Mar 11, 2008)

your a big lad tainted but i dont think your at the sort of size were lossing a lot of mass off cycle would be an issue imo you should just take the time off and whatever little mass you do loose will easily be regained through muscle memory when you go back on, save the gh and other peptites until you need them.


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## gym rat (Jul 10, 2007)

yeah but hes using it as a combo shooting it in the muscle with the slin and gh in same pin to get a large igf release, do abit of research mate


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

glanzav said:


> you could run test prop as it doesnt effect your testosterone indulgence
> 
> i no a few guys that compete that do this
> 
> ...


utter tosh...so these guys who do this and say it does not effect their natty production do they come to this conclusion through blood test or because they feel fine??

any amount of AAS that will produce muscle growth will effect your natty production it is foolish to think otherwise....

in my opinion for most SLin combined with GH is an exceallant choice to maintain size after a cycle(not including water size) but then so is IGF-1 and GH what you have to ask yourself why do you feel you need to?


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## glanzav (Sep 11, 2008)

i was just stating what i was doing guys i run my gh for 3-6 months guys 10iu eod

and as for the test prop its what i have been told by a couple of old time bodybuilders maybe some1 can clear it up abit better untill i get more info as im only learning like everyone else from eachother and other ppl in the sport

if it was down to my own knowledge i would of got no where by now


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## TaintedSoul (May 16, 2007)

Pscarb said:


> utter tosh...so these guys who do this and say it does not effect their natty production do they come to this conclusion through blood test or because they feel fine??
> 
> any amount of AAS that will produce muscle growth will effect your natty production it is foolish to think otherwise....
> 
> *in my opinion for most SLin combined with GH is an exceallant choice to maintain size after a cycle(not including water size) but then so is IGF-1 and GH what you have to ask yourself why do you feel you need to?*


Confused Paul.. are you asking why we feel the need to maintain as much gains as possible from a cycle whilst off? :confused1:



[email protected] said:


> your a big lad tainted b*ut i dont think your at the sort of size were lossing a lot of mass off cycle would be an issue *imo you should just take the time off and whatever little mass you do loose will easily be regained through muscle memory when you go back on, save the gh and other peptites until you need them.


I know I'm skinny mate you dont have to rub it in :lol:

It's the yoyo effect that is not nice. 2009 I'll spend a fair bit on GH and assess things in Jan 2010 if it was really worth it. I need to get 120kg's for my height to look decent.


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

no my point is that many use these peptides as a way of keeping gains from a cycle but yet have very little understanding how to do this using PCT meds and diet...

i am not saying guys should not use these peptides just asking how many use them because they don't know how to keep gains through normal methods thats all....


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## MXD (Jan 23, 2008)

When I'm coming off in the next few weeks I'm going to be running:

Training day: 12iu lantus am, 8iu novo pwo + 8iu gh (bi laterally)

Non training day: 20iu lantus

The lantus works very, very well for me. I've gained 4-5 mostly lean kilos in 4 weeks of using it which I am utterly extatic about.

Never used the gh before and not expecting anything miraculous but should help that little bit more. Thinking about it even if I wasn't a bodybuilder I'd take gh for its benifits


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## TaintedSoul (May 16, 2007)

Pscarb said:


> no my point is that many use these peptides as a way of keeping gains from a cycle but yet have very little understanding how to do this using PCT meds and diet...
> 
> i am not saying guys should not use these peptides just asking how many use them because they don't know how to keep gains through normal methods thats all....


Oh ok I get it. I know what you saying. I generally keep 2 maybe 3kg's. But if I can keep 3 maybe 4kg's then that's worth it to me.

My one poor mate crashed badly, got depressed and weight is right back to where he started. but you can only preach PCT to someone for so long and then give up.

I think the biggest problem and I am guilty of this myself in the past. You go mental on a course, religous on diet, training, health and lifestyle. Come of and slowly start drinking with everyone again and so begins a very catabolic phase untill next course.


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## glanzav (Sep 11, 2008)

correct me if im wrong pscarb

When HGH makes it pass through the liver, a release of IGF-1 is a result. IGF-1 appears to be the key player in muscle growth. It stimulates both the differentiation and proliferation of myoblasts. It also stimulates amino acid uptake and protein synthesis in muscle and other tissues. While HGH will cause an increase in your IGF-1 level over the course of a few months, HGH has a cumulative effect, so the addition of IGF-1 will greatly speed up the time to results.

so the HGH with make the IGF-1 more effective.

Im still learning and reading on this guys i aint just gonna jump in the deep end

in the past all i done is run my pct then take tribulus zma zinc and something like no explode


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## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

Few points from me!!!!

I assume Tainted (just perused thread)

You want to come off maintain size and mostly get HPTA back to normal????

Im also assuming your not too worried about "total" recovery Ie all blood levels back to normal etc etc as you would have to come of prov and a few other bits as well

Test production back full swing yes????

Yeah go with some sort slin\GH protocol

Def run proviron......

DHEA, I would advise against it, reason being Years ago I went for a holiday in states for about a month....

Had finished a course and had decent size nuts (pre cruising days)

Mate and I decided to get some (at time available OTC there)

It said take 1 day, being me I took 4:thumb:

Sex drive went thro roof:thumbup1: HOWEVER my nuts shrunk faster than than on any AAS i ever took, in 1 week i was smaller than before when on gear:cursing:

So I sacked em off, whats point taking "pretend AAS" that fck you up when you might as well be on real thing

As for taking AAS while recovering...... IT IS POSSIBLE

Your body shuts down HPTA etc because it has exogenous AAS in it 24 hour a day every day......

SOOOOOOOOOO

What if it only had AAS in it a few days a week and only for a few hours????

Its my theory that after semi recovered you will be able to use a pre workout shot consiting of either test base, tren base (poss Mtren, not sure on life span) or cheque drops....

they will be in and out in 4 hours max I think (wil need to check)

So 3 days a week pre workout shoot 100mg test\tren base for a super workout and anabolic widow after training and will just slightly confuse body and notin actual fact stop recovery...

I have since read an article\study on this method (was in BEEF mag) i will try to dig out and find for reference:thumbup1:


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## toxo (Mar 11, 2008)

TaintedSoul said:


> Oh ok I get it. I know what you saying. I generally keep 2 maybe 3kg's. But if I can keep 3 maybe 4kg's then that's worth it to me.
> 
> My one poor mate crashed badly, got depressed and weight is right back to where he started. but you can only preach PCT to someone for long and then give up.
> 
> I think the biggest problem and I am guilty of this myself in the past. You go mental on a course, religous on diet, training, health and lifestyle. Come of and slowly start drinking with everyone again and so begins a very catabolic phase untill next course.


 like i said you should be able to maintain most of your size and strength whilst off if you keep on training hard and eating/resting properly. i mean is it really worth all the extra expense and head fukc to try and keep a small amount of mass during what is meant to be your recovery time? its only going to take you amybe 2 or 3 weeks to gain that mass back when your on cycle anyway.


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## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> like i said you should be able to maintain most of your size and strength whilst off if you keep on training hard and eating/resting properly. i mean is it really worth all the extra expense and head fukc to try and keep a small amount of mass during what is meant to be your recovery time? its only going to take you amybe 2 or 3 weeks to gain that mass back when your on cycle anyway.


Dont agree in slightest...

Tainteds body will ge going from an enviroment rich with 1500+mg per week of lovely muscle building protein synthesising AAS..

He is training super hard and eating clean, and currently gaining very very slowly...

Lets say even if his HPTA was in no way suppressed at all, lets say his natty test is tops 50mg per week....

He is not genetically gifted, hes an ectomorph....

So how the fck can a body with all that good sh1t and good training going into it, possible maintain his lean muscle mass on just 50mg test a week (but that assuming a lot caue TBH he wont have any) when the bodys primary desire is to get as small and effecient as poss...

Even training will be effected, he wont be able to lift same weights, therefore muscles not getting same stimulation, he wont be able to recover as quick, therefore again reduced training, viscious circle

If it was that easy to maintain mass when off with good diet and training hard then NOBODY would need to cruise eh!!!!

Come off, expect to lose.

END OFF


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## Goose (Jan 29, 2009)

jw007 said:


> Come off, expect to lose.
> 
> END OFF


 mg: ....

:sad:

.....

:crying: ...


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## toxo (Mar 11, 2008)

jw007 said:


> Dont agree in slightest...
> 
> Tainteds body will ge going from an enviroment rich with 1500+mg per week of lovely muscle building protein synthesising AAS..
> 
> ...


 i never said he wouldn loss mass.


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## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> i never said he wouldn loss mass.


you said he would be able "to maintain most of size and strength"

He wont, coming off that much, by there method of action, even if somehow miraculasly he maitained his size, his strength would drop considerably.. FACT

Strength drops = tissue loss

And from that dose quite considerable too


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## TaintedSoul (May 16, 2007)

Exaclty as JW said.. I am a hard gainer, I was never built at all during my teens. Skinny with concave chest and was never eally the strongest person. I do feel I have managed to change alot of this through force feeding, years of training and steroids.

But I can loose weight very easily. Insulin I have found whilst on it's own I managed to start pushing more weight. So if absorbing the food better and being able to push alot closer to what I am doing now... then that can only be positive.

I'm biding my time untill I have a family and then I can look at blaste/cruise methods. untill then I need to play it safe otherwise my partner would be devastated if I compromised things. And she sort of supports me through all this..... sort of!!!

But as said there coming off from 1gram + week back to comprised natty levels you going to loose. It's how we can best control these losses and minimise them.


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

Yes you will get better results if you run IGF-1LR3 with GH bu then you will get even better results if you add MGF/pMGF then even better when you add CJC etc etc....there is an abundance of peptides on the market now that can help whilst off cycle to maintain and even grow when off the thing i am seeing more often than not is many using them without getting the basics correct first.....tainted this was not aimed at you mate just an observation in general.....

yes you will lose whilst off cycle this is fact as you cannot hope to hold onto the mass you have achieved when on 1g+ of steroids when you are clean but a good sound PCT/Diet and training will help keep losses to a minimum then when you have mastered this add in some peptides and you could very well have a situation where you are growing on or off cycle although at different rates...



glanzav said:


> correct me if im wrong pscarb
> 
> When HGH makes it pass through the liver, a release of IGF-1 is a result. IGF-1 appears to be the key player in muscle growth. It stimulates both the differentiation and proliferation of myoblasts. It also stimulates amino acid uptake and protein synthesis in muscle and other tissues. While HGH will cause an increase in your IGF-1 level over the course of a few months, HGH has a cumulative effect, so the addition of IGF-1 will greatly speed up the time to results.
> 
> ...


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## ANABOLIC-EDGE (Apr 28, 2008)

Good post JW. I dont think those who gain weight/size/strength easily are gonna be the best ones to advise. I wont be coming off for while, not interested in working my ass off to slowly loss muscle and be depressed!

Im gonna prob do some subcut test shots, and also up the slin.

Im pretty much permanently on Proviron, 125mg a day. Did you notice much upping the dose JW, i think your on 250mg?


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## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

ANABOLIC-EDGE said:


> Good post JW. I dont think those who gain weight/size/strength easily are gonna be the best ones to advise. I wont be coming off for while, not interested in working my ass off to slowly loss muscle and be depressed!
> 
> Im gonna prob do some subcut test shots, and also up the slin.
> 
> Im pretty much permanently on Proviron, 125mg a day. Did you notice much upping the dose JW, i think your on 250mg?


Cheers mate

Not taking any prov at moment mate, altho i prob should

I usually go up to 100mg a day if I remember....

I mostly save its use tho for times of cruising, as I feel you get more benefit from it then..

TBH if on 4+g a week Im not sure the freeing up of test via prov actually counts in this instance as is abundance ha ha

However with SHIC i just added everything to cover all bases lol


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Test is test.

If you shoot testosterone that is at or exceeds your natural endogenous production, the HPTA will shut down.

If the HPTA is shut down and you shoot prop EOD, your HPTA will not recover.

Con, careful with the DHEA, low dose is ok, nothing over 20mg a day, guys tend to have elivated estrogen on that and when I was using 200mg a day (thinking I could get muscle form that), I got testicular atrophy.

They say DHEA is mildly absorbably taken orally, but that is BS, I did bloods and it was like 5 times off the chart.

DHEA is one of those hormones that exogenous administration does not effect endogenous production, so I am told.

But it is a pre-curser for all sex steroids.

I want to try CJC-1295 myself.


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## Guest (Mar 19, 2009)

The point Jay and Scott have made about DHEA is interesting tbh i didnt see much from it so if there is any chance of it hurting recovery i will just leave it well alone!

Proviron would be run at 50mg ed which i thought was meant to not effect recovery in any way.

As far as losing gains if i can come off for 6 months and only lose ten lb of lean muscle after its all done and said i will be very happy.

Pct is the most important part and i have not even begun to think about that because i rather get help with this than just go for some standard run, that said i have stock piled EVERY THING lol.


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## TaintedSoul (May 16, 2007)

When off and finished with PCT and all natty. What and why would you run priviron and for how long?


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## Guest (Mar 19, 2009)

TaintedSoul said:


> When off and finished with PCT and all natty. What and why would you run priviron and for how long?


 Mate i am no fool after a 6 week pct i am not going to be back to normal not even close IF proviron really DOES NOT SUPRESS then i will be taking it to feel better.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Guys, if you do a good PCT and have used HCG, there is not that big of a deal to be worrying about recovery.


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## Guest (Mar 19, 2009)

hackskii said:


> Guys, if you do a good PCT and have used HCG, there is not that big of a deal to be worrying about recovery.


 Not when you have been supressed pretty much for over a year mate.

That said should i be proven wrong i will be more than happy

I have been depressing my self lately by reading promuscle and all the guys that havent been able to recover!


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Con said:


> Not when you have been supressed pretty much for over a year mate.
> 
> That said should i be proven wrong i will be more than happy
> 
> I have been depressing my self lately by reading promuscle and all the guys that havent been able to recover!


Well, that perhaps is because they are doing something wrong?

Again, you guys that dont like clomid and run other things.

Don't, I dont care what anyone else says on any other board, no other SERM can make this claim:

Clomid @ 100mg a day after 5 to 7 days doubles LH output and increases FSH by 20% to 50%

Hell, they use it in for a fertility drug for men.

Not to mention they use it to test to see if one is secondary hypogonadism

Primary is when the balls dont work.

Secondary is when the pituitary does not work, clomid is used as a primer to jumpstart the pituitary to test to see if LH and FSH increase, if it does, then you are not classed as secondary hypogonadism.

Biggest factor here is the nuts....................PERIOD!

That is just one piece of the key.

Recover is totally easy if one was to follow directions.

Most dont, they listen to too many other people and screw things up.

Now granted, I ran one PCT and did blood and it was a bit on the low end warranting TRT supplementation, so I ran another PCT and my "T" levels were within base values.

The information is out there, for the life of me I dont know why others just dont follow directions.

Recovery is stupidly easy.


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## glanzav (Sep 11, 2008)

im with jw007 on this hence why i said throwing in abit of prop some guys may agree others may not but i no what i gotta do to keep my weight on as natty im like 9 stone lol so holding onto 17 and a half to 18 stone i find very hard a sec.

pscarb you say about peptides ill admitt i no nothing about them any chance you could start a post when you get 5 mins spare explaining each one what they do risk benefits so on that would be great


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## Guest (Mar 19, 2009)

glanzav said:


> im with jw007 on this hence why i said throwing in abit of prop some guys may agree others may not but i no what i gotta do to keep my weight on as natty im like 9 stone lol so holding onto 17 and a half to 18 stone i find very hard a sec.
> 
> pscarb you say about peptides ill admitt i no nothing about them any chance you could start a post when you get 5 mins spare explaining each one what they do risk benefits so on that would be great


 Well then there is no point in doing any sort of pct.

All the peptides are explained by Paul already you just have to look through this section

Interesting Scott needless to say i will be reading through all your pct posts before i start.


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

Con after being on for a year + you will not recover in 6 weeks i can tell you that from my own experiances no matter the PCT you do...but given the correct PCT and rest it will not take a long time...


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

glanzav said:


> pscarb you say about peptides ill admitt i no nothing about them any chance you could start a post when you *get 5 mins spare* explaining each one what they do risk benefits so on that would be great


i would love to mate but having 5min spare to do this justice is not going to happen anytime soon


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## Guest (Mar 19, 2009)

Pscarb said:


> Con after being on for a year + you will not recover in 6 weeks i can tell you that from my own experiances no matter the PCT you do...but given the correct PCT and rest it will not take a long time...


 Paul did you mean to say 6 months or what you did say of 6 weeks?

I have never even imagined recovering in 6 weeks i dont think thats possible besides on the very shortest cycles i am talking about giving my body a full break and recovering hdl levels ext in 6 months. In fact if i am content with how i am looking which i assume i will be with the amount of chemicals i am storing up for this half year:rolleyes: i may take even longer off.

I am a young man i have done a lot in powerlifting and i have taken my physique a long way in the past few years i would be a fool to not let my body have a decent rest. After all its not a sprint its a marathon:thumbup1:

How i see it is time on steriods will affect some things perhaps some of you are supermen and nothing happens to you well the kudos to you but for me cholestrol changes, slighly elevated liver and kidney values and slower tyroid have all been shown also i have stage 1 hyper tension most of the time in the sytstolic reading on gear i have no problems off gear.

After this contest i will keep my self much leaner in fact for the rest of the year i will try and stay sub 225lb as my body prefers this, plus if you lose some size off cycle if your lean who cares your still bigger and leaner than 99.99% of people! Now if you get off cycle being 15% chances are you hit 20% bf lose some size get really fed up with how you look and want to jump right back on.

@HACKSKI, mate i have a little question about what you were writing, normally you do like to preach a bit (dont mean it in a bad way) about how recovery is hard and people take it too lightly and i have talked with your brother a couple of times and he has told me his problems. However now your making it sound like a walk in the park?

Personally when i come off i lose some size strenght doesnt go any where because i simply dont lift as heavy as i can any more any way, sex drive decreases but i think this is mental as i get anxiety thoughts over this at times, i gain a bit of fat but truth be told i never really watched my diet too well. Overall its not bad its not like i shrink away to nothing....


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## MissBC (Apr 29, 2008)

DB said:


> Sorry butt! I am a London boy afterall! quite a common phrase around here!


hahahahah i agree, im not from london and even I USE IT......................................... (i rip it out only when its called for and will have th most effect since its coming from a kiwi)


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Con, it is a walk in the park and my very last PCT was hands down the easiest one I ever did.

These guys that take a year to recover are doing their PCT wrong, dont have the best grasp on approach, nor do they follow directions.

With the exception of some long acting gear and type of gear like deca for instance that can exert some shutdown from its metabolites hanging around for months, recovery is not that big of deal.

If you use alot of deca, you will need to get on test for a while (for me anyway) to ride out its metabolites and thus its supression.

If you testicular function as varified by blood work with HCG, and you fall within range, recovery at this point is weeks, not even months.

Recovery is nothing more than allowing the nuts to fully function, then prime the pituitary with SERMS that work.

This isnt rocket science and many people blow this for what reason, I dont know.

Now depending on how responsive to HCG, HMG or both, once you find this the problem is solved.

Guys that have problems are either having some of the gears metabolites exert some supression on the HPTA, or the testicles are not fully functioning.

That is it.

It is simple, and yes, you can be on a year, and literally you can be recovered in as little as 45 days, if you dont believe me, let me design your PCT and I will prove it.

If you dont recover in 45 days, then some modifications will probably have to happen but you will be so close you wont notice much diffrence.


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## Guest (Mar 19, 2009)

Like i said i will be talking with you i would be a fool not to. 

What do you think of the new drugs (new to me at least pmsl) torm and ralox because a few guys i respect very much say its the way forward.

Hell if it actually did some good i would take every pct drug under the sun:rolleyes:


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

Con sorry mate cannot remember where i got the 6 weeks from..

Hackskii when you say those who take a year to recover are doing it wrong is this the same for you bruv? just asking as you have mentioned on many thread how he was crashed for a really long time....

i personelly do not believe that those who have been on for a year + can recover very quickly, i may not have your knowledge of the subject Scott but it still took me 11months to get back into normal levels.....

you say your last PCT was the best you have ever done can i ask how long you was on? and how long it took for your levels to get back into the normal ranges?

i now believe that no time frame should be put on recovery i believe you are fully recovered when you are fully recovered that might take 3 weeks it may take 3months i feel the stress and pressure many place on them,selves to recover actually hinders the recovery process....and level of recovery should be recorded with blood tests not just the ability to get wood.....hell if you have the right women in your life you should get wood every morning  i know i do..... 

so that there is no confusion i am not challenging your methods Scott just airing my opinion....


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

I took forever once when using deca, but I used no PCT at that time and neither did my brother.

Well, I think I had like 20 tabs of clomid or something like that.

But that was over 6 years ago.

I do believe that those that have been on over a year can recover faster than what guys think.

I have been PMing con and he will follow my advice and put it in a log for all to see just how he is going to be instructed.

We all will see if it can be done, or not.

It took you longer Paul because of some things you didn't take, if you like send me a PM and I will identify why I feel you could have cut that way down.

From last jab 8 weeks, but I didn't have blood tests, but everything else was normal including libido and morning wood.


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## jassdhali (Jul 2, 2008)

Excellent thread guys, I was wondering may seem a daft question but with correct PCT what percentage of gains have been kept ?


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

jassdhali said:


> Excellent thread guys, I was wondering may seem a daft question but with correct PCT what percentage of gains have been kept ?


Most all, but if you are holding more muscle than you hormonally can naturally, then they will go bye bye.

Sure peptides and slin can keep some size on you, but with zero intervention, gains will go if you have more muscle than you can carry naturally.


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## Guest (Mar 20, 2009)

As Scott says he has been giving me info on how to perform a successfull pct as from info he has gained from various doctors. I do believe he has written the exact protocal up on here in the past.

I will certaintly keep an honest log including food and drugs such as igf being used along with every other factor just for my own records and i shall post them up because even though every one is individual it still may be interesting this i dont know.

Only problem i see is getting the blood work done because my doctor (its a university clinic) had been a pain in the ass just to get a simple blood panel done for the basics. I had to go as far as state i needed a record of it for my sports coach in Ireland who coaches me over email and we wanted to see if my training was going correctly lol they really didnt want to let me do the test and then to get the results. I guess thankfully(or not) my cholestrol levels are a bit out so they have no problems giving me tests now but asking one for hormones is a different matter.

Scott or any one if you know a place you can send a blood sample to and get this test done i would be happy if you would tell me.

It is still a long time away but i am very particular when it comes to planning to the point where it becomes OCD.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Con said:


> It is still a long time away but i am very particular when it comes to planning to the point where it becomes OCD.


Don't worry about anything Con, I will help you with the cholesterol and even anxiety issues all with natural things.

I got one for cholesterol that works better than anything, it isnt cheap, but is a solable fiber that is equal to 20 apples worth of fiber and you take that two doses a day.

I can literally get your lipid profile looking better than ever before.

Just be patient, I will explain everything and no stone will go unturned.

This is going to be very fun, and challenging.

I see this as something that is going to flawless and I expect no hickups.


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## TH0R (Aug 15, 2007)

I look forward to the log Con, should be very interesting

Great Thread TS


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

hackskii said:


> It took you longer Paul because of some things you didn't take, if you like send me a PM and I will identify why I feel you could have cut that way down..


as you said about yourself Scott it was a long time ago and i made mistakes i have my PCT covered now and i do recover within 6 - 8 weeks of ending a cycle.....this was measured by bloods as i never lose libido or morning wood.....thanks for the offer but i am covered...


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## All4n (May 30, 2008)

Great thread. It was mentioned that deca can cause suppression for many months after use, is this due to the actual nandralone or the deconate ester? Just wondering if this applies to NPP or not?


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Not sure really.

I know my brother was getting some serious testicular atrophy 3 months from last jab of deca.

I have heard a few reasons why this may be.

One was that it still has residual gear stored in the fat, and small amounts are released and keep you either shut down or supressed.

The other was that the metabolites are still in the body and that is what is causing it.

Either way, the fix would be to get some distance from that last shot.

One may taper down with testosterone, run lower doses to get some distance and get used to lower doses of androgens before you start your PCT.

Both reasons would make it quite practical to do this, if supressive compounds are used like tren and deca.

Shorter esters would most likely be a good idea, and help with this problem.


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## BANDIT1 (Apr 27, 2008)

This is one of the best and informative post's I have ever read Outstanding job everyone


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## All4n (May 30, 2008)

I used deca in the past and even 5 months later i still had very low sex drive. Nolva only pct and no HCG though which i think defiantly contributed.

Recently used tren ace and 7 weeks post cycle strength/sex drive are coming back very nicely. I did use HCG this time though. I have a suspicion that it is the longer acting esters that may cause the problems. I think finishing off on a short acting ester (i finished last cycle with 25mg prop EOD for 1 week) is beneficial to recovery. Based off this, i think NPP would be easier to recovery from than Deca even though the same drug has been used. If you think about it, the longer acting ester is lingering about in your body for longer and thus suppression is longer. Longer suppression, longer it takes to recover right?


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Yes, but remember deca can be detected in a test for up to a year.

But yea, very long esters you have to wait for them to clear before you can even consider recovery, unless you add in HCG.

HCG is supressive but because the nuts are not stimulated on cycle, it is a good idea to get them in order first, then worry about the pituitary.


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## TaintedSoul (May 16, 2007)

Con said:


> Scott or any one if you know a place you can send a blood sample to and get this test done i would be happy if you would tell me.
> 
> .


Are there no clinics anywhere you can walk in and get a blood tests done. There are a few here in London and I think having access to something like that is invaluable.

Con look forward to your PCT log, how soon you coming off. I'm due in a few weeks!! :cursing: :cursing:

This thread is progressing nicely. Thanks for all the input guys.


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

Con won't be coming off until after the 16th of May which is show day


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## TH0R (Aug 15, 2007)

is there any difference to the length of time trained prior to AAS, will prior training

help in anyway?

For example;

18 yr old Boy trains 3 months, jumps on gear then comes off with good pct

45 yr old Man trains few years, jumps on gear then comes off with good pct

just random examples:whistling:

:beer:


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

tel3563 said:


> is there any difference to the length of time trained prior to AAS, will prior training
> 
> help in anyway?
> 
> ...


I cant prove it but I would say yes.

I did some cycles when I was in my 20's with no PCT, but not the doses I take now, very mild ones.

Now, I can tell it takes longer and is harder.

I cant prove it but I would suggest a younger guy can recover faster than an older guy.

Again, just my opinion.


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## TH0R (Aug 15, 2007)

hackskii said:


> I cant prove it but I would say yes.
> 
> I did some cycles when I was in my 20's with no PCT, but not the doses I take now, very mild ones.
> 
> ...


I wasn't thinking of the age Hacks, i took that as a given, it was more the

length of time training previous to AAS i was getting at, I should of put

2x45 year olds


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Well, remember at our age, testosterone levels as well as GH levels are far lower than our younger counterparts.

You can only hold the amount of muscle your body has hormones for.

If you exceed your genetic disposition for muscle, and you come off, you will lose that muscle that is above your genetic disposition.

Now of course peptides, slin and other things can keep you above this limit, but with no other intervention, likely most will be lost.


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## TH0R (Aug 15, 2007)

hackskii said:


> Well, remember at our age, testosterone levels as well as GH levels are far lower than our younger counterparts.
> 
> You can only hold the amount of muscle your body has hormones for.
> 
> ...


So this implies that the sooner you go on AAS the better, as you'll only lose what

exceeds your genetic disposition.

Example

I'm 25 years old, so fully grown, train for 3 months and then take AAS for

10 weeks, do a good pct and maintain good diet. Will I keep most of my gains

as I'm unlikely to have reached my genetic disposition, even with 10 weeks

of test.

other scenario

Im 21 years old, train for good solid 5 years eating correctly etc, then embark

on 10 week AAS, will i lose the same amount of muscle as above example

or less/more:confused1:


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Good question.

This is why I dont have heartburn with guys going on after not being at their genetic disposition.

But with all things, you have to weigh the good with the bad, if elivated blood pressure is an issue, that has to be taken into consideration.

If male patern baldness runs in your family, then you would need to make the choice if muscle means more than hair, or use a drug that does not convert to DHT.

Another thing to take into consideration is how fast the muscle grows.

It can grow super fast on cycle, far faster than connective tissue, injuries do happen on gear being pushed past your genetic disposition.

Best bench before gear was 6 to 10 reps with 225 lbs, on cycle even at an old age I did 18 reps with 225, then got an injury...lol

Regardless if the reasons behind wanting to use gear, so many questions need to be asked prior to even thinking about their use.

It is not for everyone.


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## MXD (Jan 23, 2008)

Tel, the fact is you will be able to add more muscle untill you're about 50 as thats when your test will start to drop if you are a healthy *training* (higher androgen levels) male.

If you use gear after training for a good while you will still hold on to the muscle you would of been possible to of carried in your later years.. but here is where we hit a hypothetical.

Imo if the person used gear earlier then hed be able to add onto the amount of muscle he'd add past the normal physiological ranges his body allowed for and hold onto it when his body has returned to homeostasis, if that makes sense? lol


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## jaydfinnie (Mar 25, 2009)

theres only 1 thing that keeps ur mass eat half a turnip a day and 1 processed sweet garden pea with gravy lo


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## TH0R (Aug 15, 2007)

MXD said:


> Tel, the fact is you will be able to add more muscle untill you're about 50 as thats when your test will start to drop if you are a healthy *training* (higher androgen levels) male.
> 
> If you use gear after training for a good while you will still hold on to the muscle you would of been possible to of carried in your later years.. but here is where we hit a hypothetical.
> 
> Imo if the person used gear earlier then hed be able to add onto the amount of muscle he'd add past the normal physiological ranges his body allowed for and hold onto it when his body has returned to homeostasis, if that makes sense? lol


Nice post MXD but........

I was led to believe test levels start dropping in adult healthy males at 19

or am i getting that mixed up with the Vietnam war

I suppose what I'm hoping is because I've trained so long natty, the base

that i've built will help me keep the smaller gains that i seem to be getting.

Could this not be the reason that i haven't made the impressive gains some

have? Although i still have a few weeks to go ie better base=less gains on AAS?

Seems to sort of make sense to me

I intend to run a PCT with good diet and then see how it goes, can I expect

to return to my original size prior to AAS within weeks or months?

Being a bit new to all this has made this thread enthralling to me, I'd like

to learn about the peptides etc if anyone can link me to some decent reading

material it would be appreciated:beer:


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## Incredible Bulk (Sep 19, 2007)

i managed to keep hold of most of my gains when i came through PCT and out the other side.

I put it down to training just as hard as when i was 'on', not going to a cut straight away and maintaining the diet for 5-6 weeks after


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Well, I am older, and I do know guys besides myself at my work that are similar in age and I gotta say.

The dudes on gear get big, they come off, belly fat comes on, and size shrinks some, most all the dudes at work I find this to be so.

I went back on as I wasnt happy with the amount of fat I seemed to be gaining...lol

I always do PCT, last two were fantastic, last one was far hands down the best and easiest.

I do kind of get tired of thinking about sex night and day.

It is fun, but kind of gets old and is distracting.


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## Guest (Mar 26, 2009)

hackskii said:


> Well, I am older, and I do know guys besides myself at my work that are similar in age and I gotta say.
> 
> The dudes on gear get big, they come off, belly fat comes on, and size shrinks some, most all the dudes at work I find this to be so.
> 
> ...


 These guys need gh to run post cycle and cut down their food intake a tad


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Perhaps, but one of my asian buddies has some pretty freaking thin hair, and asians have thick hair.

You can tell when he is on and off, but he will not do a PCT, he does not believe in them, but then again he was suffering from high cholesterol, anxiety, high blood pressure and some elivated liver enzymes.

He was forced to go off, then gave me some serious sh!t for using.

Typical hypocrite, as long as he is on, its all good, if he has to go off for medical reasons, the rips the p!ss into me.

Screw him.

The other older guy got laid off and all he does is train, sleep and eat, I heard he was massive, and he has to be in his 50's.

Super lean and very vascular.


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## TaintedSoul (May 16, 2007)

tel3563 said:


> is there any difference to the length of time trained prior to AAS, will prior training
> 
> help in anyway?
> 
> ...


I believe you need to have learnt to diet and train your muscle properly before hitting juice. And ideally reached your natural genetic limit. This will become harder as you age as mentioned to due to various hormones declining. But definately have diet and training technique nailed and you going to gain the most from it. That would be in an ideal situation but many dont do that.. I never did and I know looking back I could have learnt so much more before starting.

Some chaps might start and be lucky to have an experienced couch and after 6months could hit the juice and explode over the next few years. Other might plod along on their own and after a year still not be getting it right and wont benefit as much from steroids, they'd gain but how much more could they have. BodyBuilding is definitely not one of those one size fits all scenarios.

If you talking recovery and I can only go how I felt back then and now and I definately feel coming off a course back when I was younger I didnt even notice a hormone change and never did PCT. Whereas now I can feel things suppresed alot more, hell for a few weeks I dont even want to know about sex.


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## TaintedSoul (May 16, 2007)

Little update :

Well now... I have been off since mid April. I got upto 110kg's on previous course. 112kg on a really bloated period. Before starting I was on about 103kg's I think. I had never flat benched 170kg's in my life and near the end of the course I was hitting it for about 4 reps.

So fast forward I have been hitting HGH constantly 4 times a week on training days post workout into muscle worked and been cycling insulin. I finish a 300iu pen and then take some time off. Generally take 12iu(breakfast), 6iu, 6iu, 12iu(post workout). Each day on traing days only.

So last time I checked my weight was about 107.5kg's. Granted I have gained a little fat on the stomach so there is little more muscle loss going on. But weights wise I have never held onto most of my strength like I am currently. Did 170kg decline press today, followed by 110kg incline press which I'm sure if it was a my first set I could get 140kg's out.

So anyway... I can honestly say this PCT period and the time afterwards has been the easiest transition to date. Hell I didnt even notice PCT in the gym.

Thoughts.. HGH and insulin definitely help me maintain far more size and strength post cycle whilst doing time on/off. :thumbup1:


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## hilly (Jan 19, 2008)

great stuff, have you thought of trying a long acting slin mate?

I would be curiouse as to how this stacked up against your results with fast acting as you would be the only person who would have ran both that could give us an account of which one worked better than the other so to speak.


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## TaintedSoul (May 16, 2007)

hilly2008 said:


> great stuff, have you thought of trying a long acting slin mate?
> 
> I would be curiouse as to how this stacked up against your results with fast acting as you would be the only person who would have ran both that could give us an account of which one worked better than the other so to speak.


I'll grab some on my next shopping spree and let you know mate. I have been thinking of trying it.


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## hilly (Jan 19, 2008)

TaintedSoul said:


> I'll grab some on my next shopping spree and let you know mate. I have been thinking of trying it.


Great stuff,

In theory it seems like a good idea but i have yet to actually speak to any1 that can atribute any actual gains to it as most people start it when running a course etc so obviously its hard to say what has come from what.

I think from my research the best is to run both and shoot the levemir at breaky then some fast acting with 1 or 2 meals .


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## paulo (Feb 17, 2007)

i reckon compounds (exercises) and plenty clean calories/rest is the way--taper off gear,taper training to basics,keep cals highish and incorporate long walks for fat burnage-without losing muscle as low intensity


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