# which way is best ?



## willbefit (Aug 24, 2007)

hello every one..

i have been doing weights for a while and hoping to lose BF, but for approx 1 year just going through the motions and not really acheiving anything at all.

i have slowly been reducing my calories per day, and have also reduced carbs to approx 125g per day, 4 days a week am fasted cardio for approx 45-50 mins, other times weights and cardio later in the day.

it seems when i reduced my carbs to approx 125 g my weight went down very quickly by about half a stone but realise most of this is water weight, started creatine and weight shot back up to same as before.

it seems no matter what i do i cannot shed fat, i have done low cal diets before lost lots of weight, and became just a smaller version of myself.

should i consider lower cals even more currently approx 1800 cals per day

or attempt less carbs to say 100- 105g per day and see how i get on,

my stats

85 kg

aged 35 years

height 5'9''

BF approx 18-20 %


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## toxictoffee (May 2, 2007)

welcome



> it seems no matter what i do i cannot shed fat, i have done low cal diets before lost lots of weight, and became just a smaller version of myself.


there is your answer

too low on carbs for too long

cycle them or have on day higher each week

its hard to give info of what you have said though

IMO anyone can get to 10% very easily before crazy methods are needed


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## willbefit (Aug 24, 2007)

thanks TOXIC

i understand difficult to give ideas based on my post,

below is an example of a typical days diet for me

wake 45 - 50 mins fasted cardio low pace approx 120 - 130 bpm

meal 1 whey protein in 100 ml skimmed milk

meal 2, 2 whole eggs, 1 egg white 1 slice of burgen bread

meal 3, approx 100g chicken breast, small w/m bap, tomato, salad, little flax oil

meal 4, salmon/steak stir fried with mixed veg (mixed peppers, mushrooms, onions)

meal 5, NO CARBS AT THIS POINT, usually just a whey protein shake approx 1 hour before bed

my workout is 3 times a week usually between meals 3 & 4 when i add a pwo whey shake with 200 ml skimmed milk

usually the day after my workout i have six meals but follow above protocol meal sizes etc, as that day i am hungry faster after a meal,

thanks for any opinions critique


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## Jock (Apr 8, 2003)

Ditch the Milk in the AM, go with some whey, water, oats and natty PB/UDO's Oil -You body gets protein from whey, low GI carbs from the oats and fats from the PB/UDO's.

As toxic said you've got to cycle your carbs, your body will adjust very quickly to one set amount.

I know toxic disagrees with re-feed days but you could try something along these lines.

Sun-Low Carb Day

Mon- Low Carb Day

Tues- High Carb Day

Wed-Low Carb Day

Thurs- Medium Carb Day

Fri-Low Carb Day

Sat-Refeed Day


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## willbefit (Aug 24, 2007)

thanks for your suggestions,

i will put together a carb cycling plan,

whats your thoughts on calories, i am currently aiming for approx 1800 per day, keep cals as they are and see how cycling diet goes, or lower them a little i know i have read that too little cals usually causes catabolic weight loss, but i am not losing weight at all.


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## toxictoffee (May 2, 2007)

> I know toxic disagrees with re-feed days but you could try something along these lines.


i dont disagree with re feeds, i disagree with unstructured binges and eating sh1te out of ketosis when cycling

how does a re feed differ to a high day BTW?


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## willbefit (Aug 24, 2007)

thanks, how is a re-feed day different to a high day on carbs

i appreciate not a free licence to eat as toxic says sh1te

is there any reading material you can point me to with regards to advice in setting up a carb cycling plan, so i can gauge grams of carbs for each day based on my stats etc.

thanks in advance


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## toxictoffee (May 2, 2007)

dont over complicate it for now

a few days of low carbs and a higher day, see where it takes you

if you dont know how to structure one, just play it as it goes as bullsh1t baffles brains, you can overspill and not lose anything

so, low carbs for 3-4 days and one higher day for a while ensuring you dont go way over calorie budget


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## Jock (Apr 8, 2003)

toxictoffee said:


> i dont disagree with re feeds, i disagree with unstructured binges and eating sh1te out of ketosis when cycling
> 
> how does a re feed differ to a high day BTW?


Sorry dude just got that impression from some of your replies at muscletalk.

Re-feed days for me break up the monotony of a strict diet, not an excuse to binge but surely can't hurt?


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## toxictoffee (May 2, 2007)

ok in short

protein and fats dont raise leptin, ke for re feeds

fructose leads to overspill when refeeding on high doses of carbs

supercompensation can be abused

fats alter insulin reponse and what can be stored as fat

therefore, those amongst other factors make some re feeds good, some binges sh1te

look at mental satiety Vs logical dieting


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## willbefit (Aug 24, 2007)

thanks for direction with this.

what i plan is, i was not losing any weight of any kind on 1800 cals low carbs.

so 2 low days at 1600 cals (p200/c130/f40)

followed by 1 high day of 2200 cals (p224/c/280/f45) usually weights days

i will try this for next month or so and see how i get on.

as i get used to it i will try to increase the low days a little.

am i going in the right direction with this. thanks again


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## toxictoffee (May 2, 2007)

> am i going in the right direction with this


no

the high day should look *more* like

50-100g protein

500-700g carbs baseline

20-30g fat

something along those lines


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## Tony Barnes (Oct 8, 2004)

Steve, what are your thoughts on having to increase re-feed frequency as BF drops to take account for Leptin levels?? Basic theory seems logical enough, but I've not seen it in practice, so can't comment.


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## toxictoffee (May 2, 2007)

you can argue that this alone wont obviate metabolic slow down

it will though restore glycogen levels and allow for adequate training

chronoiclally low carb diets (and carb static ones) will overtime 're set' MR but TBH this is done simply to get the anabolic rebound and supoercompensate from low glycogen levels over a week of depletion


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## Tony Barnes (Oct 8, 2004)

Furry muff.

Will see what happens when I try it in a few years... lmao!


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## toxictoffee (May 2, 2007)

dont you need to train first? reggers:


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## willbefit (Aug 24, 2007)

wow thats a lot of yummy carbs i will have to munch through.

i cannot wait to attempt that.

would glucose or dextrose pay a big part in it for pwo as it seems to be difficult to keep fat low and have high carbs, ie even oats when consumed in higher levels have quite a bit of fat, same with w/m rice etc.


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## Tony Barnes (Oct 8, 2004)

lmao - haven't you heard, I'm back at the gym 

Sorted myself out for holiday we went on (lol, lame reason I know..) - first month went really well, stuck on 8lbs and lost a load of fat. Got back from hols and fell out of routine quite badly, then got food poisoning and lost about 1/2 stone over a weekend (fat, water, and muscle  ), and now sorting out again.

Should have fitness levels up to doing full body workouts again soon - not sure on your thoughts on these, but they always yielded the best results when I used them in the past, I just have insufficient energy to get me through workout at the minute...

So the 3 year plan kinda starts here I guess... scary..


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

in practice a lot of theories in my opinion go to pot...

i was told a few years ago that if i lowered my carbs to much on carb cycling or if i over did the re-feed i would not get into condition this i have proved to be wrong several times science is great but i much prefer real time experiences shame more guys don't preach that like they do science


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## toxictoffee (May 2, 2007)

agreed paul

the work of bergstrom et al show 170mmol/kg of glycogen can be hammered into muscle

is this reality after depletion (as normal range is 90-110)

maybe, maybe not and i think you are right

try and see what works for you and if you iverspill or stay 'flat' change it as long as you know whats fat and whats sub q water


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## Bulldozer (Nov 24, 2006)

:jaw::jaw::jaw::jaw:

Mr science himself saying that personal experience is better!

Damn nearly had a heart attack


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

i love these figures bantered around mainly because so many other factors come into play that are not mentioned in these articles like late nights due to new babies and stress due to work etc etc which all effect carb loading amounts.....


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## Bulldozer (Nov 24, 2006)

I meant Toxic btw Paul. Not you


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## toxictoffee (May 2, 2007)

paul

does that run true of gear use or do you go off science where that is concerned?

as for me and science?

i like a bit but its not everything 

i certainly could have carbed up harder for the show i did


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

TT i dont use science when it comes to dieting i use instinct...their was a huge difference in how i carbed up in 2006 drug free (3 days 1200g carbs)and how i carbed up in 2007 assisted(3 days 2700g carbs)

by the science the difference should not be this much....

i do like to look at some studies but most that are quoted on boards are done so with little or no understanding of how it is transferred to either human subjects or real time experiences...i am not including you in this group though....

I will say i do love when guys preach the use of carbs, protein and fats in dieting especially for pre-comp diets without fully understanding the other factors that are involved....

Science has its place but in bodybuilding most of it goes above most guys heads and has no real relevance to the guy on the street who come to this type of board for pure facts for example when it comes to re-feeding i would advise to start with trebling the typical daily amount of carbs for one day this is not a scientific calculation it is just a number to start with if you see what i mean....


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## toxictoffee (May 2, 2007)

fully agree mate

this is one area when walking the walk and walking it with others wins hands down over science

its like when youn built a model rocket at home as a kid

first few times you took it out after making it, the damn thing wouldnt fly

tweak it over time and watch the thing work...just gotta find the key and apply it to each person you deal with


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## Mars (Aug 25, 2007)

Jeez,I got a good one take in less calories than you use.Once your carb source is depleted you'll use fat for energy


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## Slamdog (Jun 11, 2007)

mars1960 said:


> Jeez,I got a good one take in less calories than you use.Once your carb source is depleted you'll use fat for energy


it stops happening after a while...

your body resets your metabolism after a while...


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## toxictoffee (May 2, 2007)

mars1960 said:


> Jeez,I got a good one take in less calories than you use.Once your carb source is depleted you'll use fat for energy


oh right

why didnt we think of that


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

mars1960 said:


> Jeez,I got a good one take in less calories than you use.Once your carb source is depleted you'll use fat for energy


yes you are correct but what happens when your body realises the changes you have made and lowers leptin?? how do you propose this is tackled??


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## Mars (Aug 25, 2007)

Damn pscarb,you got me again,whats leptin.


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## Mars (Aug 25, 2007)

Pscarb said:


> yes you are correct but what happens when your body realises the changes you have made and lowers leptin?? how do you propose this is tackled??


Would the body not realise very quickly the changes you are making and not the changes you have made and react accordingly.I read that someone said don't underestimate your body it will realise very quickly any changes in what you put into it.


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## toxictoffee (May 2, 2007)

once you drop carbs out the body goes into ketosis

in ketosis you lose LBM if you dont use carbs at some point and your metabolic rate is 'reset' to a lower point

you lose muscle and eventually become skinny fat

the body strives for homeostatis, yes and this will be a lower RMR/BMR and you lose muscle

weight training cannot be done efficiently without carbs at some point and living in letosis will not yield a good body composition


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## Mars (Aug 25, 2007)

toxictoffee said:


> once you drop carbs out the body goes into ketosis
> 
> in ketosis you lose LBM if you dont use carbs at some point and your metabolic rate is 'reset' to a lower point
> 
> ...


I totally agree but can,t you lose body fat and still gain muscle? You don't need to go into ketosis as such to lose fat, you will just use body fat for energy once your carb supplies have been depleted. Then as you are training to gain muscle as well, then wouldn't you just have your post workout shake as normal.


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## toxictoffee (May 2, 2007)

you will not gain muscle mass in ketosis

shakes mean little also

cut or bulk

unless

your a new trainer

you have 10 years to add minimal mass

you use gear


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

mars1960 said:


> Would the body not realise very quickly the changes you are making and not the changes you have made and react accordingly.I read that someone said don't underestimate your body it will realise very quickly any changes in what you put into it.


i think you will find i say that alot  your body is not stupid and does not necessarily do what you tell it, once you lower your calories via lowering carbs you will drop weight initially this will be water weight mainly because for every 1g of carbs your body takes in approx 3g of water so if you drop your carbs then you also drop the amount of water you hold.

Now you here plenty of stories of guys on diets who say that they worked for the first 3-4 weeks then they could not lose any more weight this is because the body realises that you are losing fat and goes into a starvation mode holding onto fat for emergency this will lead to protein being broken down and converted in to sugars for energy.

you can combat this by carb cycling and including a refeed day into your diet this will trick the body into thinking their is no starvation and will raise the metabolism this should last for around 4-5 days then revert back by lowering the metabolism again initially a refeed should be done every 10 days but as you get leaner the refeed days will get closer together...

Here is a good read on Leptin...

http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/diet-nutrition/25250-refeeds-leptin.html


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## willbefit (Aug 24, 2007)

excellent read you attached pscarb

i am stuck on doing low cals / carbs and having a re-feed day

or carb cycling

i must admit i do find it difficult to stick to 1600 cals really want to cheat on those days, so i think i should try carb cycling more variety and less days at low cals.

as long as i have understood all i have read in this post


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

carb cycling is low carbs not low cals you must replace some of the calories lost via dropping the carbs with calories from good fat sources


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## Mars (Aug 25, 2007)

Hi pscarb,found the ironmag article very interesting. I also read a thread you posted about it, in fact iv'e read a lot of your threads. I'm learning a lot on this forum all very interesting food for thought. Cheeers and keep up the good work.


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## Slamdog (Jun 11, 2007)

There is an article on T-Nation too

http://www.t-nation.com/readArticle.do?id=1685372&cr=


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## willbefit (Aug 24, 2007)

re-feed day today,

i have died and gone to heaven.

cinamon and raisin bagel, yummy, lots of oats for brekki, and having a good sized plate of spag bol a little later on. might even treat myself to a bar of chocolate.

good for sanity, hope it does the trick on the leptin levels, some good reads recommended in prev posts thanks


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## toxictoffee (May 2, 2007)

keep fats and protein levels low if you are aiming to increase leptin levels

they do not increase leptin

mental satiety? yes but not leptin and TBH a refeed is about carbing up, not 'fatting/proteining' up (if there are such terms)


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## Mars (Aug 25, 2007)

willbefit said:


> re-feed day today,
> 
> i have died and gone to heaven.
> 
> ...


Umm sounds good bagel, oats,spag,good choice you willbefit.


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## toxictoffee (May 2, 2007)

low fibre sh1tty carbs are best for refeeds initially especially to break out of ketosis


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## Mars (Aug 25, 2007)

toxictoffee said:


> low fibre sh1tty carbs are best for refeeds initially especially to break out of ketosis


 Yea gotta agree stay away from those green fibrous veg.


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## willbefit (Aug 24, 2007)

understood, at first i thought it was just loads of w/m bread or rice etc.

but i realised they come with quite a lot of dietry fat, thus could not work out how to keep protein and fat low, then looked at crap simple carb sources, nearly zero fat for most, but really high levels of carbs,

near the end of the day for me, and i must say i am feeling like i have had enough of carbs, ie if it was a task to do this over several days, it would be a tall order, cant believe i am saying this but you obviously cannot have to much a good thing.

until next week, back to good carbs and protein and fats meals.


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## toxictoffee (May 2, 2007)

a high carb day of 250g is ifne to consume starchy fibrous stuff but if you have 24 hours to put away 1000g then that is going to be a hard one

simple, easy to digest initially then the fibrous, slow burners later


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

there is a huge difference between a high carb day and a cheat day....

high carb days will replenish glycogen and raise Leptin but i have found in my own experiences that a cheat day stimulates the metabolism much better than a high carb day especially when you are carb cycling.


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## willbefit (Aug 24, 2007)

my understanding of a cheat day from what i have read is.

eat whatever i like be it, pizza, crisps, any crap fatty foods.

at risk of being told off, would that be quite counter productive to a hard week of a strict diet.

strangely now that i have got up following my high carbs day,

my weight has gone up by only half a pound, not the extra water weight i was expecting to see, although my fasted cardio was much easier i was able to achieve much higher intensity and i did not have that drained feeling within seconds of starting as my body adapts to burning fat for fuel, not until approx 35 mins anyway.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

toxictoffee said:


> low fibre sh1tty carbs are best for refeeds initially especially to break out of ketosis


Poor choice in my opinion.



mars1960 said:


> Yea gotta agree stay away from those green fibrous veg.


Fiber is a must in the diet and 35 grams of fiber burns 250 calories, helps to regulate insulin by slowing digestion and also helps elimination and cholesterol issues.

I understand we are talking about body building here but Green leafy vegetables are loaded up with DIMM and indoles which curb estrogen naturally.

Green leafy vegetables have one of the must nutrition and detoxifying properties of any food, not to mention anti-oxidant effects.

Every diet in the book adds fiber.


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## toxictoffee (May 2, 2007)

why is it a poor choice initially?

its not, certainly not on a ketogenic diet


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

toxictoffee said:


> why is it a poor choice initially?
> 
> its not, certainly not on a ketogenic diet


Why spike insulin during dieting?

Keto diets are to switch from burning carbs, or a sugar burner to a fat burner.

How would introducing a person that is in ketosis, to simple sugars benefitial to the dieter?

Fiber is one substance that actually slows digestion which lowers blood sugars and can avoid fat storing.

Please tell me of the benefits of simple sugars and glycogen repleneshment out side of PWO recovery?

Not having a go bro, just a debate.

You are welcome to bring scientific evidence or just plain experiance if you like.


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## mart77 (Aug 18, 2007)

hackskii said:


> Why spike insulin during dieting?
> 
> Keto diets are to switch from burning carbs, or a sugar burner to a fat burner.
> 
> ...


arent you meant to have refeeds to boost leptin levels?


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## toxictoffee (May 2, 2007)

on a CKD

the best way to break out of ketosis is ingesting 'fast acting' carbs

we are talking the refeed post week long ketosis after the final depletion work out. the notion of minimising an insulin response is crazy, fibre would do this

prime the body for an insulin response by using n3 fats earlier in the day and kick yourself out of ketosis initially and as quickly as possible by beginning the refeed with fast acting sugars

you later switch to slow digesting carbs but intially the insulin issue is not one, in fact its somewhat advantageous and anabolic

i cant think of a cyclical ketogenic diet which would have it any other way


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Sorry, I don't like the idea of simple sugars outside of let's say PWO.

Insulin resistance is very real and too much insulin is not good.

Not only that but AA is elevated from a keto type diet due to the meats and such, and in the presence of AA and insulin that is a bad combination.

Most people become less tolerant to carbs in a keto type diet.

Insulin spikes tank GH levels and fat burning stops.

Insulin is a storage hormone and too much carbs or too high elevation of blood sugars can cause one to store fat.

I also don't believe that in the absence of carbs that you lose muscle, I hear this so often and I just don't buy it.

Keto diets have been used for over 100 years to control epilepsy, and even used to this day when anti-seizure medications don't control the epilepsy.

Massive studies have been performed on children with epilepsy for years being on a keto diet.

Paleolithic diets produced bigger and stronger men, many cultures have meat and fat based diets with little health concerns and no cavities, mental health issues, cardiovascular disease and very strong people, Eskimos come to mind here.

Sorry, but I have not seen any evidence to suggest any thing different.

The brain is the biggest glucose hog in the body that is its preference for fuel; ketones can also be used for fuel providing there is enough fat in the diet.

I myself went on a keto diet for probably 3 months, I lost a lot of weight and felt very good, only drawback in strength was stamina as I could not get the reps but I could get the weight. One side effect that I didn't appreciate was I smelled funky.

Diet stalled and I slowly added in carbs of fruits and vegetables and the weight started to drop again.

I also don't understand the avoidance of fructose. An apple is almost a perfect food, without going into much detail of the enzymes, vitamins, salable fiber, among many other things, I am at a loss as to why one would not indulge in one of life's perfect foods and swap that out for a simple sugar and or processed crap.

Sorry, I am lost here as this is not conducive of good health.

It has been a while since I read Atkins book, but he suggested slowly adding back the carbs.

If you would explain to me how keto diets lose lean muscle I am all ears.

Also I would like for you to explain fructose and its avoidance of the fruits carbohydrate.

Did you also suggest that Omega 3's kick you out of ketosis, if so please explain?


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## toxictoffee (May 2, 2007)

scott in short 

fructose fills liver glycogen and can interupt ketosis, is not ideal for a refeed in large amounts as you over spill

n3 fats simply increase insulin sensitivity ready for the carb up, thats a minor issue and i will dig some info out if you wish



> Insulin is a storage hormone and too much carbs or too high elevation of blood sugars can cause one to store fat.


supercompensation and depletion allows for simple sugars to be stored as glycogen so yes insulin is a great storage hormone, rember we are looking to store at this point and you would have to do something very wrong to store bodyfat when depleted

look at the work of bergstrom on super compesnation and just how much you can cram away before overspill

a normal diet will be around 70-90mmol/kg of glycogen, an advanced endurance athlete, 100mmol/kg...after depleting over 3-4 days you can go out to 170mmol/kg...again how do you store fat unless its through sh1tty fats and fructose?



> Insulin spikes tank GH levels and fat burning stops.


yes and at no point during the refeed would you expect to be anything other than anabolic after 5/6 days without carbs...this is a time for anabolism, not catabolism/ketosis...you are breaking out

anyhow...

carb free diets will lose muscle, the thryoid will slow down, leptin is inhibited and recovery and intensity of work outs without glycogen is poor, hence why you store through supercompensation enough glycogen to train after the refeed on a CKD



> It has been a while since I read Atkins book


yes its an SKD which is poor for training athletes, read lyles work or dan duchaine



> The brain is the biggest glucose hog in the body that is its preference for fuel; ketones can also be used for fuel providing there is enough fat in the diet.


as is the CNS, but not skeletal muscle beyond SO fibre training, which doesnt extend to weight training, hence the use of CHO and doing steady cardio whilst in ketosis to aid fat loss


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

I forgot about the liver glycogen re-fill first with fructose......my bad.....I have memory problems and repeating myslf helps with memory.

So on your refeed days you restrict the fats and some proteins right?

I have not read much about supercompisition, well practicly nothing actually.

I would love to read some of Bergstrom's stuff on this, if you have a link I would love to read that.

So the refeed days are the last two meals, or the whole day?

In refrence to the mmol deal (clueless to me) how many grams are we talking about for lets say a 200lb guy?


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## toxictoffee (May 2, 2007)

hi scott

ok

protein would be 50g ED, fat as low as possible

you would

eat normally up to a glycogen depltion session at midday (so a keto diet high in n3 fats this time)

YOU MAY take some simple sugar pre work out, but mst dont

then do you circuit training

then have a period of 6 hours or so where you consume ~300-500g of easy carbs

continue this for the next day with low protein and low fat gradually introducing better carbs

i have gone 100g in a day and not got close to spilling over or being full

then a second day could be employed

you soon find your level (as long as you dont mistake water weight/bloat for fat)

i cvan go to 1200 over 24 hours and not hit the sides, some will do that over 2 days, some just 500g is enough over 24 hours

then that takes you to the following week loaded with glycogen ready for 2 hard sessions and back into a keto diet

all logic goes out then window for the 'GI' thing on the re feed

the quicker acting carbs intially the better to break out of ketosis and allow for the anabolic environment and refeed to commence, where you do fcuk all for a couple of days, re stock and then hammer it out in ketosis for another 5 days

SKDs are fine for sedentry people

cyclical keto diets for trainers


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## bulking (Oct 1, 2007)

bump for later.

some good info on here.


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## Guest (Feb 20, 2008)

Try a keto diet.

No carbs at all besides 1 carb meal per week.

1.5 grams protein per lb of body weight and .5 grams fat per lb of body weight, best diet i have done so far.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Con said:


> Try a keto diet.
> 
> No carbs at all besides 1 carb meal per week.
> 
> 1.5 grams protein per lb of body weight and .5 grams fat per lb of body weight, best diet i have done so far.


Keto diets work well, but lately they stall fast for me.


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