# Abbreviated training....good or bad?



## Da Goon

*Abbreviated (Brawn style) training...Good or bad?*​
Good 2689.66%Bad310.34%


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## Da Goon

Just wondered what everyone thought of abbreviated training versus traditional 4 day split style training.


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## Guest

:confused1: whats that?


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## Da Goon

Abbreviated e.g. Only a handful compound exercises per week


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## Guest

Give an example of what you have in mind..


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## Da Goon

Currently do a 4 day split at the moment:

gym workouts 4 sets of 10,8,8,6

1. Squats, leg press,MTS V Squat, standing hamstring curls

2. Incline db press, flat bench, cable flyes, crossovers, standing curls, preacher curls

3. Deadlifts, barbell rows, lat pulldowns, cable rows, MTS high row, Db shrugs

4. shoulder db press, side laterals, front laterals, shoulder width upright rows, cable rear delt, close grip press, incline french press.

But I used do about 4-5 exercises per week of just compounds exercises and gained quite well from that.

Just wanted to know what most people prefer


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## Guest

Starting next week im doind 1-2 exercises per body part.


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## dingosteve

i like compound exercises i you always get good gains not sure about only a couple times a week


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## westlondonlad

Yeah it worked, at least with me. Try to find Stuart McRobert's ebooks (Brawn, Further Brawn and Weight training technique) on torrent.


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## Nytol

Exceptional!

Most people will get bigger and stronger from this kind of training than any other.

However most do not have the balls to try it, so end up doing the same crap, year in, year out, getting no stronger and looking the same.


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## kaos_nw

about to start HIT next week! is there much difference between the HIT style mike mentzer advocates and Stuart Mcrobert's ways? or are they pretty much the same?


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## dtlv

A good abbreviated program I've followed a few times is this:

*Workout A*

Squats

Weighted Chins

Hangclean to Pushpress

Weighted Crunches

*
Workout B*

Romanian Deadlift

Weighted Dips

Bentover Row

Zottman Curls

Just 2-3 sets of 8 reps, alternating workouts on a one on/one off.


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## kaos_nw

Dtlv74 said:


> A good abbreviated program I've followed a few times is this:
> 
> *Workout A*
> 
> Squats
> 
> Weighted Chins
> 
> Hangclean to Pushpress
> 
> Weighted Crunches
> 
> *
> Workout B*
> 
> Romanian Deadlift
> 
> Weighted Dips
> 
> Bentover Row
> 
> Zottman Curls
> 
> Just 2-3 sets of 8 reps, alternating workouts on a one on/one off.


isn't abbreviated training based on the same principles as HIT? like training once every 3-6 days? with low volume but mad high intensity?


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## dtlv

kaos_nw said:


> isn't abbreviated training based on the same principles as HIT? like training once every 3-6 days? with low volume but mad high intensity?


It usually is but doesn't have to be. The above was actually based on a 'High Frequency' training routine by Mike Mahler, which was two workouts similar to those but alternated daily for five days a week - so;

Over two weeks

Workout A - mon, wed, fri, tues, thurs

Workout B - tues, thurs, mon, wed, fri

The whole idea was NOT to go near to failure and do just one or two working sets per exercise of eight reps (with a load you'd fail on at around 12 reps), and to stimulate gains through frequency rather than hammering the muscle.

I tried it and it works well, although it's surprisingly difficult psychologically to hold back every session.


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## kaos_nw

Yea i can imagine the feeling of knowing you got more in you but having to hold back, would be hard!


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## BLUTOS

Its a great way to train, but you do feel like your missing out on things,

I wish I had read his stuff when 17 instead of 27.

I follow his type of training 8 months of the year and keep making gains in weight on the bar.

I'm a fat endo and have no problem getting bigger, but would love to see an ecto or meso bodytype try this training just for 12 months without going down the normal way.


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## Bonzer

Nytol said:


> Exceptional!
> 
> Most people will get bigger and stronger from this kind of training than any other.
> 
> However most do not have the balls to try it, so end up doing the same crap, year in, year out, getting no stronger and looking the same.


Couldn't agree more with this statement:thumb:

I tried it last year when i was struggling to gain size and got better results in 2 month than i did in nearly a year. I got extremely exhausted off it though because i was constantly going to failure like an idiot:cursing:


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## Gym-pig

BLUTOS said:


> Its a great way to train, but you do feel like your missing out on things,
> 
> I wish I had read his stuff when 17 instead of 27.
> 
> I follow his type of training 8 months of the year and keep making gains in weight on the bar.
> 
> I'm a fat endo and have no problem getting bigger, but would love to see an ecto or meso bodytype try this training just for 12 months without going down the normal way.


Im predominately ecto and approx 4 yrs ago weighed 14 1/2 and now weigh around 17 ish ( at 6-1).I am in no way built for BB , lifting weights or gaining weight

I credit all this to abbreviated forms of training - its simple , lots of rest and theres an easy plan - weight progression

Never been sure one 100% Mentzer HIT but loves Dorians ideas and Brawn was a god send


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## NICK_1

i am currently having a week off the gym with the view of going back next week on a new routine, been training a 4 day split last 3 months and need a change, come across this thread, i am going to be doing the following, just wondering peoples thoughts.......i amlooking to continue increasing size and strength...

5x5 - 5 sets of 5 reps (unless otherwise stated)

Monday - Pull Day (Back and Bis)

Deadlifts

Chins (Palms facing) or Lat Pulldowns

Rows (Palms facing if you wish)

Bicep Curl 3x5

Wednesday Push Day (Chest,Tris and Shoulders)

Bench (Flat or Incline)

Incline DB Press 3x5

Overhead Press

Dips Or Close Grip Bench Press

Friday Legs Day

Squats

SLDL

Calf Raises (Optional)

Ab's work out


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## rodrigo

did this and liked it alot 5x5 push and pull got me good strength gains and a bit of size


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## NICK_1

i've trained 5x5 before just doing squats/deads/bench, which was great but havent tried the above posted routine before so thought i'd give it a go.


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## Nytol

NICK_1 said:


> i am currently having a week off the gym with the view of going back next week on a new routine, been training a 4 day split last 3 months and need a change, come across this thread, i am going to be doing the following, just wondering peoples thoughts.......i amlooking to continue increasing size and strength...
> 
> 5x5 - 5 sets of 5 reps (unless otherwise stated)
> 
> Monday - Pull Day (Back and Bis)
> 
> Deadlifts
> 
> Chins (Palms facing) or Lat Pulldowns
> 
> Rows (Palms facing if you wish)
> 
> Bicep Curl 3x5
> 
> Wednesday Push Day (Chest,Tris and Shoulders)
> 
> Bench (Flat or Incline)
> 
> Incline DB Press 3x5
> 
> Overhead Press
> 
> Dips Or Close Grip Bench Press
> 
> Friday Legs Day
> 
> Squats
> 
> SLDL
> 
> Calf Raises (Optional)
> 
> Ab's work out


IMO it depends how advanced your strength is.

I can not squat and deadlift in the same week, and certainly could not add SLDL in there too.

However when I 1st started training I did, but as your strength grows the overall stress on the body and your recovery systems increases.

I would definitely drop out the rows on day 1, and of course do chins rather than gay lat pulldowns  .

And do only one chest exercise on day 2.

I currently do 2 sets to failure per body part, and only train each body part every 14 days, (I only train twice per week as this is most effective for me).

When training with intensity, recovery time needs to be taken seriously.

I've benched 220kg and Deadlifted 302.5, do chins with an extra 50kg around my waist, using this training style, at a bodyweight of around 105kgs, and being 6'1 I have a pretty large ROM to move the weight over.

http://www.vimeo.com/user407389/videos


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## big

Nytol said:


> Exceptional!
> 
> Most people will get bigger and stronger from this kind of training than any other.
> 
> However most do not have the balls to try it, so end up doing the same crap, year in, year out, getting no stronger and looking the same.


x2 :beer:

I couldn't agree more

Most people are too scared to try it, as it "doesn't feel like it's enough"...


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## Nytol

big said:


> x2 :beer:
> 
> I couldn't agree more
> 
> Most people are too scared to try it, as it "doesn't feel like it's enough"...


Most people who have trained with me feel like it is plenty


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## TH0R

Big, Nytol, I hear what your saying

What about us guys who enjoy lifting weights, very minimum I could do is 3x pwk without

going nuts.

I would love to be in the gym for a couple of hours if truth be told, but I limit it to 45 mins atm

and what about Wee G, hes doing zillions of sets/reps (although not too failure) and gaining

at an extremely fast rate.

More than 1 way to skin a cat??


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## TH0R

What about differing metabolic rates as well!!

and all those German & Russian PLers who train a few times a day??

What about the old addage theres no such thing as overtraining, your just under eating??

I dare say some will respond differently to others, but to say its the best blah blah is naive imo

unless you have some scientific proof that your keeping from us:rolleye:


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## big

tel3563 said:


> What about differing metabolic rates as well!!
> 
> and all those German & Russian PLers who train a few times a day??
> 
> What about the old addage theres no such thing as overtraining, your just under eating??
> 
> I dare say some will respond differently to others, but to say its the best blah blah is naive imo
> 
> unless you have some scientific proof that your keeping from us:rolleye:


Nobody has said it's the best, hot stuff

Just that it is an exceptional way to train for many(most?) people

If you've tried it and it didn't work for you, then by all means, keep doing what is working for you

But if you haven't tried it, just because you like being in the gym, then you might be selling yourself short

It's a little like diet, gear, or sexual preferences... you need to try a variety of things to see what actually works best for you


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## Nemises

is it like rippetoe starting strength or madcow?

I was thinking about giving starting strength ago. Anyone done it? any opinions on it?


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## Heineken

I train twice a week at the moment and I'm growing like a weed, 7 weeks in and very pleased with it. More recovery time, mood seems better, I'm allowed a social life.. I was really sceptical at first but it's worked brilliantly! More people should try it IMO


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## Nemises

Nytol said:


> IMO it depends how advanced your strength is.
> 
> I can not squat and deadlift in the same week, and certainly could not add SLDL in there too.
> 
> However when I 1st started training I did, but as your strength grows the overall stress on the body and your recovery systems increases.
> 
> I would definitely drop out the rows on day 1, and of course do chins rather than gay lat pulldowns  .
> 
> And do only one chest exercise on day 2.
> 
> I currently do 2 sets to failure per body part, and only train each body part every 14 days, (I only train twice per week as this is most effective for me).
> 
> When training with intensity, recovery time needs to be taken seriously.
> 
> I've benched 220kg and Deadlifted 302.5, do chins with an extra 50kg around my waist, using this training style, at a bodyweight of around 105kgs, and being 6'1 I have a pretty large ROM to move the weight over.
> 
> http://www.vimeo.com/user407389/videos


Some class videos there!!!!

Some size 10 weeks out. reps


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## dtlv

The way I look at it in simplistic/generalised terms is this:

*Low volume/HIT/abbreviated training =*

*
*

maximal CNS stimulation

moderate hormonal stimulation

maximal myofibrillar hypertrophy

moderate sarcoplasmic hypertrophy

*High volume training=*

moderate CNS stimulation

maximal hormonal stimulation

moderate myofibrillar hypertrophy

maximal sarcoplasmic hypertrophy

Which is better? Hard to say, but i guess it depends on what you need most. For a beginner who is injury free and who has a lot of development potential left the abbreviated route (once they have a few months basic training under their belt) is probably best.

If older or carrying injuries though the higher volume approach may be more useful.

For those in the middle, periods of both seems the most sensible approach to me.


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## Nytol

tel3563 said:


> What about us guys who enjoy lifting weights, very minimum I could do is 3x pwk without
> 
> going nuts.


I enjoy making progress more than I enjoy lifting a weight up and down, they are merely tools to achieve a specific goal.

Also if you can train for 2hrs, you are not training hard enough.



Nemises said:


> Some class videos there!!!!
> 
> Some size 10 weeks out. reps


Thanks.

That is not me in the 10 weeks out video, that is James Llewellyn 10 weeks before the Arnold Classic, I am far taller


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## Nemises

Ah, ok lol.

Do you think ripptoe starting strength is a good place to start?


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## Nytol

I have never read it, I read BRAWN when I started, and followed the principles in that for the first couple of years, then progressed more into a HIT style training, dropping the volume as I got stronger.

From what I've heard the principles are similar and it will probably put you in a better position than 95% of gym members.


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## Nemises

By brawn do you mean 'scrawny to brawny' or is it something else?


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## Nytol

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Brawn-Stuart-McRobert/dp/9963916317/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1266352632&sr=8-1


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## MillionG

Exactly what I do.

One big compound followed by one related exercise..

Today will be Squat 5x5 and then some calf work... for example.


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## Nemises

Thanks.!


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## Gza1

would a 5/3/1 routine come under this catogory


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## TH0R

Nytol said:


> I enjoy making progress more than I enjoy lifting a weight up and down, they are merely tools to achieve a specific goal.
> 
> Also if you can train for 2hrs, you are not training hard enough.


So the Russian and Chinese Olympic weightlifters are just playing around then,

some of them train 2-3 hours 3 times a day, massive volumes as well.

I'm not doubting it works for yourself and big, but I think your more the

exception than the rule tbh, I train at a mainly BBers gym and I don't see anyone

doing this, and we have some near pro bbers, one of which I think will be within 2 years.

I think some people just jump on the bandwagon because its easier, 2 days

per week means 5 days off, happy days for someone not so committed and

in essence kidding themselves.

JMO of course:thumbup1:


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## tom_91

What are people's thoughts on this? Might give it a go soon as I like the simplicity of it.

Day 1

Bench press or weighted dips 2x8

Squats 1x20

Bent over rows 2x8

Day 2

Overhead press 2x8

Deadlifts or straight leg deadlifts 1x15

Chins 2x8

Making sure you're adding kg's every workout.


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## Nytol

tel3563 said:


> So the Russian and Chinese Olympic weightlifters are just playing around then,
> 
> some of them train 2-3 hours 3 times a day, massive volumes as well.
> 
> I'm not doubting it works for yourself and big, but I think your more the
> 
> exception than the rule tbh, I train at a mainly BBers gym and I don't see anyone
> 
> doing this, and we have some near pro bbers, one of which I think will be within 2 years.
> 
> I think some people just jump on the bandwagon because its easier, 2 days
> 
> per week means 5 days off, happy days for someone not so committed and
> 
> in essence kidding themselves.
> 
> JMO of course:thumbup1:


Olympic lifting is as much, (if not more), technique than strength, you are comparing apples to oranges.

I totally disagree, people who grow well on volume routines are the exception, the majority of gym members train too much, with too little intensity, and therefore stay the same.

There are very few people on this 'bandwagon', most follow the masses, I know many, many people, none train this way, and only very few who are genetically superior are stronger than me.

So in essence, I think you are talking out of your bum, JMO of course, :thumb:


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## Nytol

PS, I did/(do), train with our newest pro BB'er for the 18 months before he turned pro, the majority of the time we trained in an abbreviated, HIT fashion, and even for someone like James who has amazing genetics, it was hard going, and at times he needed time off for further recovery.

In this time he made some very good progress, as I am sure he would be only too happy to tell you.

An easy route it most certainly is not, (if done right), and it takes a strong mentality to constantly try and better what you did before, rather than just going through the motions, and getting a nice pump.

Outline your training progress for us Tel, starting weight, how much gained, current strength levels etc, be interesting to compare.


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## rs007

I do have a sort of fondness for the stuff I picked up in Stuart McRoberts "Brawn". As a 14/15 year old, it was the first thing I read that made logical sense on some level. I'd been reading all sorts of Flex articles like "100 sets to big guns" with all the pics of DeMayo, Dillet, Haney, etc etc... and tried them and got fvck all.

Then along came this stuff, aimed more so at nattys which I was at the time, telling you polar opposite stuff like not to train your bis and tris directly etc etc.

I was training in the house, crappy york bench and a pile of cast iron plates, so was limited in just how far i could take it (no way to squat safely for example) but boy did I see results. I remember my arms going from 13.5 to 14.5 in a reasonably short time - couple of months or thereabouts. It was totally logical stuff, like if you are stuck and couldnt get past a wieght, get tiny tiny discs - industrial washers even, and get them on the bar, use that to get progression on a micro level...

All solid principals, and I do incorporate some of them even now. I must admit, I don't have the balls to NOT train bis or tris directly tho :lol: Mind you maybe should, never train my calves directly and those fvckers keep growing :cursing:

I think abreviated training is a good thing - maybe even more so for nattys, but I think some of the principals can apply successfuly to users too - Stuart McRobert himself said this...

Was really eye opening stuff back then, early 90s, was like being told the laws of physics were actually completely wrong or something like that.


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## MillionG

rs007 said:


> I do have a sort of fondness for the stuff I picked up in Stuart McRoberts "Brawn". As a 14/15 year old, it was the first thing I read that made logical sense on some level. I'd been reading all sorts of Flex articles like "100 sets to big guns" with all the pics of DeMayo, Dillet, Haney, etc etc... and tried them and got fvck all.
> 
> Then along came this stuff, aimed more so at nattys which I was at the time, telling you polar opposite stuff like not to train your bis and tris directly etc etc.
> 
> I was training in the house, crappy york bench and a pile of cast iron plates, so was limited in just how far i could take it (no way to squat safely for example) but boy did I see results. I remember my arms going from 13.5 to 14.5 in a reasonably short time - couple of months or thereabouts. It was totally logical stuff, like if you are stuck and couldnt get past a wieght, get tiny tiny discs - industrial washers even, and get them on the bar, use that to get progression on a micro level...
> 
> All solid principals, and I do incorporate some of them even now. I must admit, I don't have the balls to NOT train bis or tris directly tho :lol: Mind you maybe should, never train my calves directly and those fvckers keep growing :cursing:
> 
> I think abreviated training is a good thing - maybe even more so for nattys, but I think some of the principals can apply successfuly to users too - Stuart McRobert himself said this...
> 
> Was really eye opening stuff back then, early 90s, was like being told the laws of physics were actually completely wrong or something like that.


Damn hard not to iso. I gave in with Tri's, 5x5 heavy skullcrushers.. Love them.


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## essexboy

tel3563 said:


> So the Russian and Chinese Olympic weightlifters are just playing around then,
> 
> some of them train 2-3 hours 3 times a day, massive volumes as well.
> 
> I'm not doubting it works for yourself and big, but I think your more the
> 
> exception than the rule tbh, I train at a mainly BBers gym and I don't see anyone
> 
> doing this, and we have some near pro bbers, one of which I think will be within 2 years.
> 
> I think some people just jump on the bandwagon because its easier, 2 days
> 
> per week means 5 days off, happy days for someone not so committed and
> 
> in essence kidding themselves.
> 
> JMO of course:thumbup1:


Tel, with respect.There is nothing "easy" about training 20 reps squats to failure, negative only chins, weighted dips with forced, negative reps, and static holds.The usual volume routines are a breeze compared to this. you are making the classic mistake, of comparing a lot of work with hard work.They are mutually exclusive.Your statement about the pros at your gym, is not valid.copy what they do precisely,see what happens.

You may not see many using this protocol.Thats because it takes a certain mindset.its also, unpleasant, and anti social.However i can garantee what you do see at your gym.Countless trainees using some psuedo scientific routine, gleaned from a comic,used by some guy "with big guns" and all of them save the tiny percentage of genetic freaks, making zero progress, which is why this board is overun with 18 year olds seeking drug advice.Its the same as it was 40 years ago, and it will be the same in another 40 years.


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## essexboy

tom_91 said:


> What are people's thoughts on this? Might give it a go soon as I like the simplicity of it.
> 
> Day 1
> 
> Bench press or weighted dips 2x8
> 
> Squats 1x20
> 
> Bent over rows 2x8
> 
> Day 2
> 
> Overhead press 2x8
> 
> Deadlifts or straight leg deadlifts 1x15
> 
> Chins 2x8
> 
> Making sure you're adding kg's every workout.


make sure you insert 3/4(at least)days between the w/o.Id be inclined to squat/deadlift last.you wont hold back, as much.


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## Heineken

tel3563 said:


> So the Russian and Chinese Olympic weightlifters are just playing around then,
> 
> some of them train 2-3 hours 3 times a day, massive volumes as well.
> 
> I'm not doubting it works for yourself and big, but I think your more the
> 
> exception than the rule tbh, I train at a mainly BBers gym and I don't see anyone
> 
> doing this, and we have some near pro bbers, one of which I think will be within 2 years.
> 
> I think some people just jump on the bandwagon because its easier, 2 days
> 
> per week means 5 days off,* happy days for someone not so committed and*
> 
> *
> in essence kidding themselves.*
> 
> *
> *
> 
> JMO of course:thumbup1:


PMSL

What a load of sh*t! Have you even tried twice a week? My guessing is no. Talk about jumping on a bandwagon. Until you've tried it I don't think you're exactly experienced enough to make such a judgement.

IMO of course


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## tom_91

> make sure you insert 3/4(at least)days between the w/o.Id be inclined to squat/deadlift last.you wont hold back, as much.


Monday

Bench press or weighted dips 2x8

Bent over rows 2x8

Squats 1x20

Friday

Overhead press 2x8

Chins 2x8

Deadlifts or straight leg deadlifts 1x15

Then the next week do it on tuesday and saturday, then wednesday and sunday etc.

Better?


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## TH0R

Nytol said:


> PS, I did/(do), train with our newest pro BB'er for the 18 months before he turned pro, the majority of the time we trained in an abbreviated, HIT fashion, and even for someone like James who has amazing genetics, it was hard going, and at times he needed time off for further recovery.
> 
> In this time he made some very good progress, as I am sure he would be only too happy to tell you.
> 
> An easy route it most certainly is not, (if done right), and it takes a strong mentality to constantly try and better what you did before, rather than just going through the motions, and getting a nice pump.
> 
> Outline your training progress for us Tel, starting weight, how much gained, current strength levels etc, be interesting to compare.


Its nothing startling but here goes

Went for 11-10 to 14-10, weight training and boxing/ma at same time. Around

3 years natty, much volume, far too much but training with a sibling didn't

help:rolleyes: Too much competition, but ate fairly well tbh

Few breaks for kids, other sports, got back into it around 3.5 years ago.

Still 14/7, got to 15/7 in 24 months still natty. Experimented with low volume

very similar to what your talking about, didn't like it and felt I went backwards

gave it around 8 weeks. Lost a fair bit of muscle imo, maybe I'm just a pussy trainer:rolleyes:

Was 15 stone when hitting the dark side, around 18 months ago, sitting at 16/5 and leaner and 16lb heavier than avvy 2 weeks ago, unfortunately I've

been Ill for over a week and lost an unbelievable 8lbs, as of this morning I was

15/11, pig sick tbh but I never ate fvck all for 3 full days, trying to make

up for it now but still too sick to train :sad:

I don't do massive volume anymore, haven't since I joined this forum, normal

week would be one on one off so full body every 8 days, chest/bi, legs,

shoulders/Tris, back/calves

No point looking at James's training imo, his genetics are way above mine and

he' probably grow doing the dishes:thumb:

Your missing my point btw, I'm not saying its an easy route, its deffo *not* easy

when done correctly with the correct mindset, as you and james and probably

many others have proven, what I meant was it becomes an attractive proposition

for the lazy trainer (I use the trainer term loosely here) who just sees it as an easy way to train, and in effect will get nothing from it or at the least very

little.

Most people look for an easy way to do anything and 5 days off will appeal to

the wannabe big chavvy type as they don't need to be in the gym....some even

post on this thread



essexboy said:


> Tel, with respect.There is nothing "easy" about training 20 reps squats to failure, negative only chins, weighted dips with forced, negative reps, and static holds.The usual volume routines are a breeze compared to this. you are making the classic mistake, of comparing a lot of work with hard work.They are mutually exclusive.Your statement about the pros at your gym, is not valid.copy what they do precisely,see what happens.
> 
> You may not see many using this protocol.Thats because it takes a certain mindset.its also, unpleasant, and anti social.However i can garantee what you do see at your gym.Countless trainees using some psuedo scientific routine, gleaned from a comic,used by some guy "with big guns" and all of them save the tiny percentage of genetic freaks, making zero progress, which is why this board is overun with 18 year olds seeking drug advice.Its the same as it was 40 years ago, and it will be the same in another 40 years.


Essex, I never said it was easy, read the post please.

I am not making the classic mistake, I'm judging Nytols view with my own experience,

is that so hard to accept?? Is my years of experience any less valuable than

Nytols?? To me its more important what I think/know.

I've done 20 rep squats a plenty, is 20 rep squats more punishing than 4 sets

of 12 (with pauses) with as much weight as you can do 8 with, I think not

What about doing 4 sets of as many as you can do, with 45 second rests, tell me thats a breeze eh:whistling:



Heineken said:


> PMSL
> 
> What a load of sh*t! Have you even tried twice a week? My guessing is no. Talk about jumping on a bandwagon. Until you've tried it I don't think you're exactly experienced enough to make such a judgement.
> 
> IMO of course


Your guessing is wrongI have tried it, and your point is..................or did I hit a nerve


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## Heineken

I just don't appreciate being referred to as someone kidding themselves when I'm getting decent results. Additionally, I don't have to visit the gym 6 times a week to be 'committed' either lol, building muscle isn't just down to time spent in the gym. How long did you give this method before you wrote it off as a waste of time?


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## TH0R

Heineken said:


> *I just don't appreciate being referred to as someone kidding themselves* when I'm getting decent results. Additionally, I don't have to visit the gym 6 times a week to be 'committed' either lol, building muscle isn't just down to time spent in the gym. *How long did you give this method before you wrote it off as a waste of time?*


So when I said SOME people will just jump on the bandwagon because they

can take it easy, you immediately thought of yourself, hmmm interesting.

.......and you can't be bothered to read my previous post either, hmm interesting

Do you have any pics of this phenomenal weed like growth your experiencing??


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## martin brown

I'm not a fan of training twice a week - it's not enough stimulation for most people.

And I see well Tel's point here - tell people not to deadlift too often and they do it one every lifetime if they are the lazy kind.

BUT I am a big fan of the style of routine - I'd just have it done three days a week or even 4 depending upon the split and level of person doing it. There certainly isn;t anything easy about doing compound exercises that's for sure - but only done properly.

M


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## Heineken

tel3563 said:


> So when I said SOME people will just jump on the bandwagon because they
> 
> can take it easy, you immediately thought of yourself, hmmm interesting.
> 
> .......and you can't be bothered to read my previous post either, hmm interesting
> 
> Do you have any pics of this phenomenal weed like growth your experiencing??


You should be a politician, you seem very good at taking things out of context and avoiding questions 

You slated the way I train, so obviously I'm going to think of myself, odd statement to make :confused1:

I did not read your other posts before replying no, I saw the earlier post and directly quoted it. Nothing to do with not being bothered lol. However I have done now and you said you lost muscle doing it for 'around' 8 weeks. I don't see how anyone can lose muscle training heavy compounds twice a week and eating properly, unless you were kidding yourself into thinking you had more muscle than you actually did maybe?

My 'phenomenal weed like growth' is relative to me and my previous experience with other routines, pictures will have little worth in this debate


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## tom_91

@ Martin Brown

Any good examples of 3/4 day splits using compounds?


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## TH0R

Heineken said:


> You should be a politician, you seem very good at taking things out of context and avoiding questions
> 
> You slated the way I train, so obviously I'm going to think of myself, odd statement to make :confused1:


If you re-read my post I didn't slate anything:confused1: I said lazy fvckers would be

attracted to it because it only meant 2 days in the gym, seen as most ppl

only want a quick fix way to get to there goal, what else would be more attractive

than only 2 days per week in the gym??

Now the difference being, the said lazy fvckers wouldn't make the gains

somebody with Nytols/Bigs intense training could.

One of my big beliefs is it takes at least a year and probably a lot more, before

anyone can train with the highest intensity required for this type of routine.

Most just "go through the motions" without realising.

Even Nytol/Big can't deny that fact, I can't see it doing much for a newby, even

without going into form/ROM factors, although another factor is newbies normally

grow whatever they do, so who knows:confused1:

Regards your pics, you stated you grow like a weed on this routine, comparison

pics would be helpful to prove your point, no?


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## martin brown

tom_91 said:


> @ Martin Brown
> 
> Any good examples of 3/4 day splits using compounds?


Most routines that have credability - Jim Wendler's 5/3/1, Stronglifts, Bill Stars stuff etc. Even Westide or WS4SB...


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## Wee G1436114539

I think abbreviated training helps solve the issue that holds back the majority of non-serious gym goers (they do not know how to train intensely / work hard) but at the same time completely closes the door on a host of other possible ways of growing muscle.

The only "routines" that, to me, have ANY credibility are those which accept that there are several possible ways of growing muscle (stimuli), all of which are inversely related to one and other, and therefore attempt to balance these means out. As the various training means are inversely related this means that no one means can stimulate maximum hypertrophy, for all people, all the time and hence that 99% of "routines" or "methods" that advocate a fixed volume, training load, etc at all times are utter bull****. 

Those that Martin lists above - use linear or conjugate periodisation to vary stimulus over tme, and hence, tome, make ore sense than a "progressive overload" abbreviated routine.

BTW, I used to write for Stuart's "HardGainer" magazine and think he is a decent guy.


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## dtlv

I think lazy people get attracted to both methods of training - some like the abbreviated route so they can train for half an hour three days a week with compound exercises but using warm up loadss, while others will train for longer but do less quality exercise, normally finding reasons not to do big compound exercises. This usually means no deadlifts, minimal leg training, no place for training to failure EVER but thirty sets of various curls and on the pec dek.


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## dtlv

Wee G said:


> I think abbreviated training helps solve the issue that holds back the majority of non-serious gym goers (they do not know how to train intensely / work hard) but at the same time completely closes the door on a host of other possible ways of growing muscle.
> 
> The only "routines" that, to me, have ANY credibility are those which accept that there are several possible ways of growing muscle (stimuli), all of which are inversely related to one and other, and therefore attempt to balance these means out. As the various training means are inversely related this means that no one means can stimulate maximum hypertrophy, for all people, all the time and hence that 99% of "routines" or "methods" that advocate a fixed volume, training load, etc at all times are utter bull****.
> 
> Those that Martin lists above - use linear or conjugate periodisation to vary stimulus over tme, and hence, tome, make ore sense than a "progressive overload" abbreviated routine.
> 
> BTW, I used to write for Stuart's "HardGainer" magazine and think he is a decent guy.


Very much agree with this Wee G - the most successful training methods that have longevity are those that cover all bases but without compromise to any of them.

Am A huge fan of daily undulating periodised programs - simultaneous use of higher rep workouts (for sarcoplasmic hypertrophy and hormonal stimulation) and shorter heavier abbreviated workouts (more for myofibrillar hypertrophy and CNS stimulation) alternated in a structured and progressive way. The mix also allows all muscle fiber types to be covered.

People often do one version of training, get results, and then off the back of those results automatically assume the other method is non effective. Although some people may be more genetically (and psychologically) suited to one method more than the other, in truth they both have value when followed properly and are perhaps best of all used when combined in a well considered periodised routine.

Ironically perhaps the worst training methods of all are also approaches that take aspects of both, but combine them the wrong way - volume with too much intesity (=overtraining), or abbreviated training with not enough intensity (=undertraining).


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## BigDom86

i think abbreviated training is good. but some people take it too far. what kind of leg stimulation are you going to get out of one set of squats? and thats it?

i agree that there is no need to be in the gym for 1hr30-2hours at all. try to keep my workouts to 1hr-1hr15.

there is a big difference between high intensity training, and people who like to think that just because they are doing one massive set basically in 10minutes then are ****ed etc. of course you will be. i can easily make myself tired etc, feel ****ed etc, by using a 1/5 of the weight i use on movement and simply just doing something like squat, then chinups, then bench with no rest. but whats the point?


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## kaos_nw

this thread has really got me lost! lol i was really excited about going on a HIT routine like Mike Mentzers one for 8-10 weeks to measure the progress as i have just come off a 5 day split and want to see how i respond to intensity vs volume

one thing i aim to achieve by using a abbreviated routine is to fully develop my 'mind-muscle' link, because in my normal routine I think i kind of go through the movements rather than actually working the target muscle.

So with a HIT/abbreviated routine where i have a really slow rep cadence e,g, 2-4sec up, 2 sec squeeze, 3-4 sec down I hope to learn to really focus the tension to the target muscle in all future routines. So a slow steady controlled rep is the best way to learn how to target the muscle correct?


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## Nytol

tel3563 said:


> One of my big beliefs is it takes at least a year and probably a lot more, before
> 
> anyone can train with the highest intensity required for this type of routine.
> 
> Most just "go through the motions" without realising.
> 
> Even Nytol/Big can't deny that fact, I can't see it doing much for a newby,


I agree to a point, a new trainer is not going to be able to deliver the intensity to get away with only a set or two for stimulation, when I started I followed a 5 x 5 routine as outlined in BRAWN, as I got stronger, I dropped sets off, as I felt they were doing more harm than good.

As I got stronger still I went from training 3 days per week to 2, and increased the time between body parts.

When I went back to training 3 x per week with James, I made almost no progress at all, as 3 x per week is too much for my body to recover from, regardless of any hormonal therapy.

Now I train twice per week, I do train biceps and triceps, with thick bar curls, OH EZ Extensions, and Dips.

In retrospect I'd have probably grown more not training arms directly in the beginning, but I made constant progress in strength, weight and size, until I hit a weight plateau at 210lbs, (at 6'1)

I'd gained over 60lbs naturally in a 2.5 year period, with no attention to diet and no supps, (protein was super expensive back then), and was leaner than when I started.

My use of AAS was only ever about bodyweight, strength has always come progressively for me, and seems to stay even when off, I've been off for about 4 months now and still benched a comfortable 200kg a couple of weeks ago.

My max bodyweight was 260lbs, this was obtained training twice per week on the 14 day split, I still had abs at this weight but felt too heavy, so dieted down to a leaner 245ish.

I should also point out that in addition to having p1ss poor genetics, I have probably the worst appetite on the board, when I would go out to dinner with my girlfriend and my 4yr old daughter, they would often eat more than I did :sad:

The worst training cycle I ever did was Mon, Tues, Thurs, Fri, which despite still using low volume, actually caused me to regress.


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## TH0R

Nice post Nytol, its good to have a Bbing/pl related debate again tbh:thumbup1:


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## Nytol

tel3563 said:


> Nice post Nytol, its good to have a Bbing/pl related debate again tbh:thumbup1:


Yeah, shocked the $hit out of me


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## Scrappy

im a huge hit fan, but i made my best gains on two full body 5x5 a week, i think every thing has its place though


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## essexboy

tom_91 said:


> Monday
> 
> Bench press or weighted dips 2x8
> 
> Bent over rows 2x8
> 
> Squats 1x20
> 
> Friday
> 
> Overhead press 2x8
> 
> Chins 2x8
> 
> Deadlifts or straight leg deadlifts 1x15
> 
> Then the next week do it on tuesday and saturday, then wednesday and sunday etc.
> 
> Better?


yes.If however, you dont fell recovered rest more, there are no hard and fast rules.


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## wmullen

I love abbreviated training.....after a long time in the wilderness I revisited Brawn about 6 months ago and have been making steady progress ever since....natural.

As for not spending enough time in the gym I just spend the extra days doing cardio.....2 days weights, 3 days cardio...suits me fine!


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## John Chun

Hi all,

This is a great thread. I'm just starting back my training after an injury 16 months ago. In the past 12 months I have mainly done bodyweight training to get my strength back (ironically I'm not fitter than I ever have been in my life). I gained some fat so have been trying to trim down a bit recently.

Anyway this thread got my attention as I used to be a big HIT fan years ago. I'm goiong to dig out my brawn book & mentzer books (although they take it to the extreme!!).

*Nytol* - You seem to have a very good physique and it sounds like we have similar genetics etc. I was wondering if you could post a sample 2 day a week routine for me?? I train at home so am limited as to what I can do. I have heavy weights, bar, dumbbells etc as well as olympic rings to do dips on. I have a chin bar too.

Obviously I can't do heavy squats but can do lunges, deadlifts, bent rows etc. Any ideas??

I look forward to hearing any ideas you may ahve

Many thanks

John


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## Burner

The Beyond Brawn book is interesting but he is incredibly long winded. He repeats himself again and again and its grueling trying to read huge chunks in a single sitting. I guess its best used as a reference book. I'm not dismissing the content and am taking it on board. I'm training one on two off but using deads, squat and bench. Im fairly new to serious strength training and trying to restrict myself to mostly barbell work as he recommends. It may seem like alot for someone new but I really cant get the intensity from all three lifts. I dont usually have a spotter and so am often resorting to machine benches (the ones where you use plates) and smith machines. Squat is the only one im really feeling the effects of as im making real progress relative to the others. So much so that I might have to limit it to twice a week. Deads arent taxing me as much because grip strength is a sticking point so I may try some other things to bring that up.

I'm only half way through so I searched to see what he has to say on creatine but he is largely dismissive. I take this stuff cos its cheap and seems to work and the label says take before and after training. How do you supplement this stuff when training only twice a week? What about other stuff you supplement around training like BCAAs? This doesn't necessarily apply to me but im interested.


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