# Do we need Black belts ?



## MrBigStuff (Nov 8, 2009)

:welcome

Id like to know what you guys think about black belts and how you see them

mybe you have a kickboxer or a wrestler background and the only think you need a belt for is to hold you pants up ?


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## TheIceman5 (Jan 13, 2009)

Black belts basically mean that you have a good knowledge of an art.

As my coach would say when sparring, Think of the man, not the dan.


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## daniel (Feb 10, 2009)

TheIceman5 said:


> Black belts basically mean that you have a good knowledge of an art.
> 
> As my coach would say when sparring, Think of the man, not the dan.


well said - i remember when i was a kid it was hell impressive if someone had a black belt in something, then i got a little older and a little wiser &...well they really only mean tht you know a certain amount of techniques don't they?


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## MrBigStuff (Nov 8, 2009)

Yes i gues so , you see guys who feel the need to mention it and others who feel the need to say hey that guys got a black belt you know

its something thats allways tickled me


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## james8 (Jun 30, 2008)

my lil brother (who isnt little) has been doing karate for almost 9 years now and i still smash him up when we spar....


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## YourMMA (Aug 20, 2009)

Depending on the art, a lot of them don't really mean much in a practical situation.

BJJ and Judo black belts earn them through full contact sparring, competition etc. These are valued belts.

I wouldn't be fazed if I found out I was fighting a Kung Fu black belt, let's put it that way.


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## daniel (Feb 10, 2009)

MMAunltd said:


> I wouldn't be fazed if I found out I was fighting a Kung Fu black belt, let's put it that way.


exactly. i achieved a junior black belt wtf) in semi contact karate when i was a kid - didnt stop me being shit at fighting!:laugh:


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## benny (Oct 9, 2009)

I think they work as agood motivational tool

when I was doing TSD training for a new belt was enough sure we sparred but its not like MMA where you have a record of wins losses and draws. Each to their own I guess but from a non competing point of view I think belts fill the gap. They also help for some competitions to match up opponents like in BJJ.


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## daniel (Feb 10, 2009)

benny said:


> ....I think they work as a good motivational tool....


actually thats a good point, esp. good for kids to build their confidence like.


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## MUTINY! (Jul 31, 2009)

MMAunltd said:


> Depending on the art, a lot of them don't really mean much in a practical situation.
> 
> BJJ and Judo black belts earn them through full contact sparring, competition etc. These are valued belts.
> 
> I wouldn't be fazed if I found out I was fighting a Kung Fu black belt, let's put it that way.


:good

Agreed


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## cobramma (Sep 14, 2007)

i think it depends on there instructor im a black belt and i know that i earned it cause it was over 4 hours long and i cudnt walk for couple of days grading that are 30mins long and ur pay god knows how much money for anit worth the paper there written on there are alot of clubs around but only a certain amount are good instuctor and trainner. also i suppose it depends on the style as well


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## Helix1x (Oct 19, 2009)

Gotta say I think gradings are very important in martial arts. With MMA, of course, it depends on your win/loss ratio etc . . . However, if you plan to master a specific martial art you need a goal to aim for and also the specifics needed to reach that goal. Imagine Kungfu, ninjutsu, Taekwondo, karate, jiujitsu with no grades. The belts or grades define each set of techniques and competence. True ,natural fighting ability and the skill of putting techniques to use in an actual fight vary from person to person, but on the whole, a high-level blackbelt who has 'mastered' his/her art will give you hell in the streets. If you are graded by a good school you will not reach blackbelt if you are anything less than a master of your art. Having 'good knowledge of the techniques' will not get you a blackbelt. MMA has rules, street fighting doesnt, that's what you've gotta remember here. A blackbelt may not be as effective in a cage as a wrestler, but that's only because he's had many of his techniques cut out due to the rules. I'm speaking from a ninjutsu viewpoint here, by the way. These techniques are cut out for a reason: because they f**k people up, badly.


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## cobramma (Sep 14, 2007)

i totaly agree pal well said


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## PrideNeverDies (Sep 28, 2008)

I dont know much about belts regarding traditional martial arts

but BJJ and Judo .. belts are good because it's a motivational tool, and a reward


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## YourMMA (Aug 20, 2009)

Basically what MMA is/was all about.

In the vale tudo days, anything could be used and the weak arts were separated from the strong arts i.e. useful techniques separated from non-useful ones.

The main arts that were effective in full-contact, hand to hand fighting emerged in wrestling, boxing, thai, bjj, judo and the other fell to the wayside. These people need to consolidate themselves with rankings and dan grades to tell others how awesome they are or stories of 'the street.

Ninjitsu - Anyone remember Scott Morris?!

"We don't know much about him, because he is a ninja."


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## james8 (Jun 30, 2008)

ninjitsu worked for donatello and the other turtles tho.....


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## MrBigStuff (Nov 8, 2009)

Not meaning to step on your toes , but i disagree with some of that , while it might be a tool to get kids to learn remember there wasnt any belts in the old days

The belts were brought in when the arts became a sport and a comercail enterprise that spreed out across the globe

and the oldest disapline that we know of came from aceint greece ,wrestling which back in them times they could strike and grapel and the only rules were no eye gauging and the refere had a whip to cuation the fighters, and they had all the same moves that the later asian martail arts had chokes armbars ect . later on as the olypics progress they split wrestling into two sports boxing and wrestling

so what i am saying is belts are part of a comercail enterprise you have been brought up in promoted by holliwood

other disaplines have survived without them and still dont need em , i just think we should be proud that we europeans have the oldest known disapline and dont think asians have the monoply on killer

moves


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## SteSteez (Jul 21, 2007)

When it boils down to it there is no difference in what grading people are in MMA, i've never been graded although I do roll with graded people regularly and sometimes i've pulled off submissions or just general attempts and they've pointed out certain standards of what i've displayed interms of grading and to be honest - i couldn't give a monkeys... maybe i'll get graded if i wanna teach little kids in 20years time?

Grading is great if your a business - tell your customer they are level 1, they can get to level 2 but they need to come more and more into your shop... eventually when they reach level 2 explain they can get to level 3 aswel if they spend more in your shop. Superb business module.

As for Kids - i think this business module is superb for kids as it gives them confidence and something to aspire to, an achievement. prolonging their interest in MA.


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## Si-K (Jul 23, 2007)

I failed my black belt at 14 and never bothered grading after that - the grading was a farce ( 4 hours long and basically if you where a northern being graded down south on this day you where not getting your grade) and I have learnt over time if your a black belt in a semi contact art then in real life application - you are probably gonna get a nasty surprise - again a black belt in non full contact arts means you have a good basic knowledge of x moves/kata's etc - it's more a case of the person who practices the art rather than the art itself - but on the majority, as pointed out the non to semi contacts got laughted at when up against full fighting/contact arts - simply because of the lack of shock to the full contact fighters and the fact they knew their moves worked in real life application and not just a theory (imho).


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## Helix1x (Oct 19, 2009)

The main arts that were effective in full-contact, hand to hand fighting emerged in wrestling, boxing, thai, bjj, judo and the other fell to the wayside. These people need to consolidate themselves with rankings and dan grades to tell others how awesome they are or stories of 'the street.

Ninjitsu - Anyone remember Scott Morris?!

"We don't know much about him, because he is a ninja."

Yeah, the thing is MMAunltd, we "have" heard of Scott Morris. He won a few fights in UFC then got beat by a 'blackbelt' in Taekwondo and karate. Big deal. However, I've never heard of you, so I dont know where you get off taking the piss out of someone who made it farer than you have up to now and probably ever will just because he listed his style as ninjutsu. There are loads of people who say they are mixed martial artists but couldnt beat their own dicks let alone a blackbelt in an asian martial art. I'd like to see you in a streetfight with Morris and we'll rate your MMA against whatever he has to offer.


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## benny (Oct 9, 2009)

I dont think there is a "perfect" martial art every style has weaknesses MMA is a sport after all and if you try and get someone in a BJJ "guard" on the street chances are you going to get a boot in the head or balls. There are loads of threads all over the net about reailty systems(krav etc) vs traditional(kung fu) and traditional vs sporting/mma techniques. Most systems that I have seen/studied are generally as rule based on punching/kicking people in weak areas whilst avoiding getting punched/kicked themselves some systems/arts are more successful against certain attacks than others but I think that most have at least some merit. We also have to remember that not everyone studies a martial art for the same reason. I have a friend who studies TSD and he loves doing katas and light kick boxing it keeps him fit so whats the harm?

Also on another note go on BJJ forum those guys take a lot of pride in their belt colours and considering it takes ten years of hard work to get to black belt in BJJ who can blame them?


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## MrBigStuff (Nov 8, 2009)

This is one of my favourite moves and im sure it was about before those asains invenred martail arts


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## SteSteez (Jul 21, 2007)

To top if off though just a simple glance in my local newspaper this week heralded a great photo of a local karate club with the article focussing on them entering a tournament... near enough all the students are rocking black belts and there is even a woman that looks out of shape and is over 65+year old.. with her black belt she can take on a deviant smackhead grabbing her bag? maybe but anything else shes struggling.

i'm not arguing whether this MA is better than that MA or that one MA is shit - i'm basically saying a grading doesn't really mean shit - it all falls down to the individual


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## daniel (Feb 10, 2009)

Helix1x said:


> Yeah, the thing is MMAunltd, we "have" heard of Scott Morris. He won a few fights in UFC then got beat by a 'blackbelt' in Taekwondo and karate. Big deal. However, I've never heard of you, so I dont know where you get off taking the piss out of someone who made it farer than you have up to now and probably ever will just because he listed his style as ninjutsu. There are loads of people who say they are mixed martial artists but couldnt beat their own dicks let alone a blackbelt in an asian martial art. I'd like to see you in a streetfight with Morris and we'll rate your MMA against whatever he has to offer.


hmm someones hit a nerve there:laugh:


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## Imy (Jul 20, 2007)

The way I've always looked at it is that a 1st Dan onwards pretty much shows that the guy/girl has a good amount of knowledge in the art. You could call it a degree in that art form. That's the way I see it. Just a massive amount of knowledge and ability.

No matter how old you get, being a blackbelt is an impressive feat. It shows determination and talent (at the proper dojos, I mean). I still have full respect for anyone who holds a 1st Dan+ in any martial art.

Chances are, though, if someone's a 2nd Dan (AKA, kept practicing and learning after receiving 1st Dan status), you can bet your ass that he knows what he's doing.


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## MrBigStuff (Nov 8, 2009)

What i have noticed from this thread 80% of posters dont respect the martail arts sports grading system !

so i propose we take a vote to replace the belts grading are activity next to our profiles

all in favour of note needing a panzy forieghn coloured belt next to our profile give me a thumbs up


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## YourMMA (Aug 20, 2009)

Helix1x said:


> Yeah, the thing is MMAunltd, we "have" heard of Scott Morris. He won a few fights in UFC then got beat by a 'blackbelt' in Taekwondo and karate. Big deal. However, I've never heard of you, so I dont know where you get off taking the piss out of someone who made it farer than you have up to now and probably ever will just because he listed his style as ninjutsu. There are loads of people who say they are mixed martial artists but couldnt beat their own dicks let alone a blackbelt in an asian martial art. I'd like to see you in a streetfight with Morris and we'll rate your MMA against whatever he has to offer.


He won A fight and lost to a guy who was a legitimate kickboxer (full contact, effective combat sport).

Farer? I think I know what you mean by that....Fighting in UFC 2 wasn't 'making it' as it wasn't a part of the hierachy system which is in place now i.e. it wasn't the 'Premier League' of MMA. Anybody could enter, regardless of whether they were proven to be good or not.

I have beaten/submitted blackbelts in random arts including trad ju jitsu and TKD.

I find myself explaining this to you when all you really need is a cuddle :gh


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