# Here is the Doc's protocol for HPTA recovery.



## hackskii

I talked to the doc today on the phone and he answered many questions for me in regards to recovery of the HPTA.

For those of you who don't know what that is it is "Hypothalamus Pituitary Testicular Axis"

After administration of AAS, you have shutdown of the HPTA. Depending on the meds taken shutdown can be severe and much does depend on the person as well.

This is the protocol the doc said he used in literally thousands of users with suppressed HPTA.

First thing, the 500iu a day was not enough to make the testicles do their job, he suggested this was just a waste of time and money.

He suggests 8 shots of HCG @ 2500iu EOD.

With this you take 20 mg of nolvadex for 45 days.

Clomid is also taken but twice a day @ 50mg each dose 12 hours apart.

The reason for the amounts of HCG (which is the most important part, if the balls don't fire everything else is worthless), is based on his determination to bring the balls back to life, too little wont accomplish this, too much risks damage to the Leydig cells.

So he basically was saying that you do the HCG and around day 10 of the above protocol, you should get a blood test for testosterone. If it is above 400 or greater then this says the balls will be just fine once you get off the HCG and the Clomid and nolva take over. This will accept the LH that you are putting out to maintain testicular function.

He used the term like jumping a car. Your battery (Pituitary gland) if low wont start your car (your testicles), if you use another car and jumper cables (HCG) once the car starts your battery (HP part of the HPTA) will keep your car running.

The clomid by itself he suggested can inhibit either the pituitary or the hypothalamus (can't remember which one) but if taken with nolva this blocks the estrogen receptors so you wont inhibit that.

So clomid in his protocol is always taken with nolvadex ALWAYS.

He did mention that sometimes the balls just don't take and then you do the protocol again. He said it was rare that he could not fire up the HPTA.

He said that beings that I have good size difference (balls), feel good, strength gains, and a greasy face he felt I should have no problems with returning the HPTA.

Some things he said was tribulis was actually inhibitory on the HPTA, great I wish I found that out after I bought two bottles.

ZMA, he said if it made me feel good then go for it but it is placebo and the HCG, clomid, nolva was it and all that is needed.

Talked to him about progesterone and he said never take that if you are a man (the last doc prescribed it to me)

Sorry aftershock, I forgot to ask him about the GH question he was saying so much I was just trying to listen.

One thing he did mention (in an article) was that HGH actually helped with the testicular recovery with things and adding that to the Protocol is a good idea and productive.

Avoid aspirin when on HCG as it kind of ruins the effects.

He said oxandrolone was suppressive on the HPTA, but Deca and Anadrol were probably the worst in his opinion. I asked him about tren but he had no knowledge as he never used it.

He did mention that test in itself was not all that suppressive and he has seen guys on 18 months that came off and made a full recovery in 45 days with the above protocol.

He said one of the best ways was 12 weeks of test, followed by the above protocol, then start another 12 weeks followed by the above protocol with a month off after that then start again.

He did say that desensitization to HCG took around 2 months, and the dose of 2500 was fine and no damage or desensitization would occur if you followed his protocol.

There it is.


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## dynamatiz

hacks quality stuff once again

i aws jus about to pm you to find out when you were posting it

also glad to hear that desensitization will not happen on this protocol until about two months

so getting boxes of hcg in 5000 ius sounds good after all


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## big

Nice post dude 

So is he saying to run test for 12 weeks and then start the 45 day protocol the next day or what?


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## hackskii

big said:


> Nice post dude
> 
> So is he saying to run test for 12 weeks and then start the 45 day protocol the next day or what?


That I forgot to ask.

But if you do the math, 8 shots EOD is 15 days.

Then run the clomid and nolva as recommended.

So, yah I bet that might just work like that.

The HCG alone will cause some supression, but there will be androgens in there.

Right now, my strength is up, feel good, getting wood, feel pretty damn good.

But I am dieting right now too.

The guy that did the protocol and wrote a thesis or book or something based all the information off of the Doc and suffered zero supression.

He even calculated fat loss, lean muscle gain, strength the whole deal.

He said he will ask the guy to see if he could send me the E-book.

I think I will get it.

The doc totally digs me.

He is a new doc on another board and he is getting beat up.

I defended him and he said he will answer ANY question of I stay as an alliance and kindof defend him.

This board he is on is too much, hard ego's, 3 diffrent docs, many old men on TRT, all know it all's.

BS really.

All he is asking for is sort of a friend and someone to look up to him.

Hey, that is easy


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## BL1

Hacks - brought some ZMA caps the other day. Does this guy not rate the supp at all or its just ineffective when running this recovery course ??


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## Biker

hackskii said:


> The clomid by itself he suggested can inhibit either the pituitary or the hypothalamus (can't remember which one) but if taken with nolva this blocks the estrogen receptors so you wont inhibit that.
> 
> So clomid in his protocol is always taken with nolvadex ALWAYS.


that makes no sense to me as clomid has similar properties to nolvadex, i.e. it's also blocks oestrogen receptors although weaker than nolvadex. But 2 pills of clomid ED should be doing a fairly good job at blocking them.

Only took a quick read at that mate will read it better later, but that's the first thing that popped out when reading it.


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## Great White

2500iu EOD sounds far to much HCG to me.


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## John

be interesting to she what else Hackskii can get from him.


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## hackskii

BL1 said:


> Hacks - brought some ZMA caps the other day. Does this guy not rate the supp at all or its just ineffective when running this recovery course ??


He said it would do nothing to aid in recovery. But he said if it made me feel better about it then go ahead and do it


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## hackskii

Biker said:


> that makes no sense to me as clomid has similar properties to nolvadex, i.e. it's also blocks oestrogen receptors although weaker than nolvadex. But 2 pills of clomid ED should be doing a fairly good job at blocking them.
> 
> Only took a quick read at that mate will read it better later, but that's the first thing that popped out when reading it.


Clomiphene is classified as a selective-estrogen receptor-modulator (SERM).

Tamoxifen is classified as an estrogen receptor blocker.

Clomiphene blocks the normal negative feedback of circulating estradiol on the hypothalamus.

Clomiphene is a synthetic derivative an estrogen. Clomid is a mixed agonist/antagonist for the estradiol receptor. Tamoxifen is a pure estradiol receptor antagonist. Clomid acts as an estrogen, rather than an antiestrogen, by sensitizing pituitary cells to the action of GnRH. Although tamoxifen is almost as effective as Clomid in binding to pituitary estrogen receptors, tamoxifen has little or no estrogenic activity in terms of its ability to enhance the GnRH-stimulated release of LH. The estrogenic action of Clomid at the pituitary represents a unique feature of this compound and that tamoxifen may be devoid of estrogenic activity at the pituitary level.

*I think this is why he uses them together.*

*Whole article below written by the Doc.*

The administration of antiestrogens is a common treatment because anti estrogens interfere with the normal negative feedback of sex steroids at hypothalamic and pituitary levels in order to increase endogenous gonadotropin-releasing hormone secretion from the hypothalamus and FSH and LH secretion directly from the pituitary. In turn, FSH and LH stimulate Leydig cells in the testes, and this has been claimed to lead to increased local testosterone production, thereby boosting spermatogenesis with a possible improvement in fertility. There may also be a direct effect of antiestrogens on testicular spermatogenesis or steroidogenesis.

Clomiphene is a synthetic derivative an estrogen. Clomid is a mixed agonist/antagonist for the estradiol receptor. Tamoxifen is a pure estradiol receptor antagonist. Clomid acts as an estrogen, rather than an antiestrogen, by sensitizing pituitary cells to the action of GnRH. Although tamoxifen is almost as effective as Clomid in binding to pituitary estrogen receptors, tamoxifen has little or no estrogenic activity in terms of its ability to enhance the GnRH-stimulated release of LH. The estrogenic action of Clomid at the pituitary represents a unique feature of this compound and that tamoxifen may be devoid of estrogenic activity at the pituitary level.

Perusal of the literature thus indicates that clomiphene acts in several ways in the human male; (a) due to its similarity of structure to stilbesterol it binds with receptor sites in the hypothalamus and pituitary, ( B) It stimulates gonadotrophin secretion by acting on the hypothalamo-hypophyseal system, © the inhibitory effects of high levels of circulating estrogens (produced under the influence of clomiphene) on hypothalamo-hypophyseal axis are possibly prevented by its potent antiestrogenic behaviour. The result of these varied effects of clomiphene is an overall increase in gonadotrophin and estrogen secretion and accounts for their increase under clinical conditions.

In one study the administration of tamoxifen, 20 mg/day for 10 days, to normal males produced a moderate increase in luteinizing hormone (LH), follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH), testosterone, and estradiol levels, comparable to the effect of 150 mg of clomiphene citrate (Clomid). Treatment of patients with "idiopathic" oligospermia for 6 to 9 months resulted in a significant increase in gonadotropin, testosterone, and estradiol levels.

Cochran database summary showed ten studies involving 738 men were included. Five of the trials did not specify method of randomization. Antiestrogens had a positive effect on endocrinal outcomes, such as serum testosterone levels. Antiestrogens appear to have a beneficial effect on endocrinal outcomes, but there is not enough evidence to evaluate the use of antiestrogens for increasing the fertility of males with idiopathic oligo-asthenospermia.

In the over one-thousand patiemts I have treated for HPTA normalization after AAS cessation i have used the combination of clomiphene citrate and tamoxifen. I have used clomiphene citrate alone in many cases. I added tamoxifen to the protocol to see if I could get a better clinical response. This seemed to be the case although I have not had the opportunity to evaluate the data. When both compounds are used the clomiphene citrate is discontinued first and the tamozifen is continued for 2 more weeks. as I stated in the post on hCG injections it is imperative to be tested while on the medications. thus one would be tested ~3-5 days before the tamoxifen expires. In the 1st stage described in the hCG post one tests for testosterone only. the serum T level determines whether or not the hCG is halted. In the typical situation the hCG is stopped and the CC & tamoxifen continued. the lab tests at the end of the oral meds is LH & T.

I hope this is of some assistance.

Peace.

Mike

If you look at the last paragraph it pretty much tells you why as well.


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## hackskii

Paul Govier said:


> 2500iu EOD sounds far to much HCG to me.


The doc assured me this is not the case. He goes against Swale on this one big time.

He used 1000iu of HCG twice a week for his guys on TRT. Then he stops after 8 weeks for 4 weeks to rid the desentization issue.

Even then desentization is temporary too.

He did say that on an occasion or two he even used more HCG to treat the hypogonadism then tapered the dose back down.

He has treated thousands on the above protocol with no problems.

From my perspective 500iu a day after 16 days did less than just one shot of 2500iu.

If we do the math that would be 8000iu compared to just 2500iu and the 2500 did more than all the 16 days.

He was very confidant that I will not have problems.

This dude is probably the top guy in the States or on the world on his recovery protocol for AAS induced HPTA shutdown.

His whole deal was getting the testicles back in order, outside of that recovery was pointless.

He alluded to the pituitary and hypothalamus as no problem getting it to fire, the testicles is his concern.

2500, my balls are getting massive and I have only had 2 shots, 3rd one will be tonight. Getting good workouts, stronger in the gym, greasy face, morning wood, sex drive comming back, etc.

I am pumped about this and feel the doc is right on the money.

Too little HCG wont do the job and it just keeps you shutdown longer anyway.

He said it could take 6-18 months to recover with just cessation of AAS alone, 45 days recovery of the HPTA with his protocol.

He did say that out of thousands of guys only a few didnt recover.

He attributed that to possibly they had low levels prior to AAS use.

I am trying so hard to get this dude to this board.


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## crazycacti

for long cycles... eg. comp prep - this sounds like a good protocol for that for sure...

i think i'll stick to swale's protocol with my 5/6 week cycles - but...

i'm def bookmarking this for long cycles in the future


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## hackskii

*This is what the doc wrote for the reason why clomid and nolvadex are to be taken together:*

Almost everything you hear or read will be anecdotal and therefore subject to no verification. Experiences with hCG while on TRT are posted. The use of hCG for PCT is only partly related to its use on TRT.

hCG while on TRT is used for 2 reasons. One reason is cosmetic. While on TRT it is not unusual and more often expected to have testicular atrophy. This is variable from individual to individual. The other reason is to act as a stimulus so the testicles do not shut down and therefore will be easier to initiate independent function after AAS cessation.

Desensitization is a potential problem with hCG. I do not think you will experience it with doses of 500IU or less 3X/week. Studies have used this dose for considerably long periods. In my patients when hCG was used while on AAS the dose was 1000IU every 3 days with one month on hCG followed by one month off hCG.

hCG for PCT involves additional concepts. This is the timing of hCG in relation to other medications for return of HPTA functionality. Under normal conditions the HPTA is a tightly coupled dynamic feedback loop. It is this coupling that has to be achieved after AAS cessation to return to normal. The analogy I use is the starting of a car by pushing it from behind. Alone the care will not start but with pushing the clutch can be popped and the car started.

After AAS cessation the secretion of LH is nil. It will not be able to initiate T production until a certain stimulus LH level is reached. Studies have shown that the time for this to occur can be lengthy. Thus the idea is to 'push' the testicles with hCG and get them started. Once T production is initiated the dependent variable is LH. If the hCG is withdrawn without adequate LH to couple with the testicles return of HPTA functionality will fail.

The increased production of LH is achieved by a dual action of clomiphene citrate and tamoxifen. Clomiphene is a mixed agonist/antagonist (SERM) at the estradiol receptor. Clomiphene will increase the secretion of LH by action at the hypothalamo-pituitary area. Clomiphene will cause an increase in LH and secondarily increases in T and estradiol. Estradiol has a negative feedback influence on the HPTA. Estradiol is 200X the inhibitory effect of T per molar basis. Normal serum levels are the following:

Testosterone: 3-10 ng/ml (10-35 nM/L)

Estradiol: 15-65 pg/ml (55-240 pmol/L)

Tamoxifen will counteract the effect of the estradiol. Once the hCG is withdrawn the LH, initiated by clomiphene and tamoxifen, will couple with the testicles and take over production of T by the testicles. The levels of LH to maintain and couple with the testicles are maintained by clomiphene and tamoxifen. Clomiphene is continued for 15 days while Tamoxifen is continued for 30 days.

In healthy adult men, circulating levels of testosterone have a distinct pattern, with increasing levels during sleep toward a maximum around the time of awakening and a decrease during the day. In PCT hCG is administered every other day. I suggest the same time each injection in an attempt to simulate this rhythm. This is purely empirical but I recommend hCG at bedtime (2200). Clomiphene is taken in divided doses of 50mg 2X/day.


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## madball99

very informative thread..


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## taslajrisi

Hackskii

I am a new member to UK muscle. I have read most of your posts on HPTA jumpstart etc. I am pretty much shut down right now. I don't want to go into detail but its the typcial too long on plus i am 41 and i did not use sufficient PCT as outlined per your doctor. I like the posts. I am going to do your doctors protocol but had some questions:

do you take the nolv/clomid at the same time as the HCG or do you start the SERMS after the HCG?

Is the below at the same time?

15 days HCG

30 days clom

45 days nolva

or

15 days HCG

THEN

15 days clom AND 30 days nolva at the same time?

I was wondering what you thought of Tribestan. supposed to stimulate LH.

I am shut down from AAS pretty clear right now and want to get back to normal asap.


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## Robbyg

So if you were using 500ius twice aweek through out the cycle would this still be ok and aid recovery still ? thanks Scott


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## brownie

Robbyg said:


> So if you were using 500ius twice aweek through out the cycle would this still be ok and aid recovery still ? thanks Scott


good question,.. this is exactly what i was thinking... do you stiil do this and then follow he's protocol


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## taslajrisi

hackskii said:


> I talked to the doc today on the phone and he answered many questions for me in regards to recovery of the HPTA.
> 
> For those of you who don't know what that is it is "Hypothalamus Pituitary Testicular Axis"
> 
> After administration of AAS, you have shutdown of the HPTA. Depending on the meds taken shutdown can be severe and much does depend on the person as well.
> 
> This is the protocol the doc said he used in literally thousands of users with suppressed HPTA.
> 
> First thing, the 500iu a day was not enough to make the testicles do their job, he suggested this was just a waste of time and money.
> 
> He suggests 8 shots of HCG @ 2500iu EOD.
> 
> With this you take 20 mg of nolvadex for 45 days.
> 
> Clomid is also taken but twice a day @ 50mg each dose 12 hours apart.
> 
> The reason for the amounts of HCG (which is the most important part, if the balls don't fire everything else is worthless), is based on his determination to bring the balls back to life, too little wont accomplish this, too much risks damage to the Leydig cells.
> 
> So he basically was saying that you do the HCG and around day 10 of the above protocol, you should get a blood test for testosterone. If it is above 400 or greater then this says the balls will be just fine once you get off the HCG and the Clomid and nolva take over. This will accept the LH that you are putting out to maintain testicular function.
> 
> He used the term like jumping a car. Your battery (Pituitary gland) if low wont start your car (your testicles), if you use another car and jumper cables (HCG) once the car starts your battery (HP part of the HPTA) will keep your car running.
> 
> The clomid by itself he suggested can inhibit either the pituitary or the hypothalamus (can't remember which one) but if taken with nolva this blocks the estrogen receptors so you wont inhibit that.
> 
> So clomid in his protocol is always taken with nolvadex ALWAYS.
> 
> He did mention that sometimes the balls just don't take and then you do the protocol again. He said it was rare that he could not fire up the HPTA.
> 
> He said that beings that I have good size difference (balls), feel good, strength gains, and a greasy face he felt I should have no problems with returning the HPTA.
> 
> Some things he said was tribulis was actually inhibitory on the HPTA, great I wish I found that out after I bought two bottles.
> 
> ZMA, he said if it made me feel good then go for it but it is placebo and the HCG, clomid, nolva was it and all that is needed.
> 
> Talked to him about progesterone and he said never take that if you are a man (the last doc prescribed it to me)
> 
> Sorry aftershock, I forgot to ask him about the GH question he was saying so much I was just trying to listen.
> 
> One thing he did mention (in an article) was that HGH actually helped with the testicular recovery with things and adding that to the Protocol is a good idea and productive.
> 
> Avoid aspirin when on HCG as it kind of ruins the effects.
> 
> He said oxandrolone was suppressive on the HPTA, but Deca and Anadrol were probably the worst in his opinion. I asked him about tren but he had no knowledge as he never used it.
> 
> He did mention that test in itself was not all that suppressive and he has seen guys on 18 months that came off and made a full recovery in 45 days with the above protocol.
> 
> He said one of the best ways was 12 weeks of test, followed by the above protocol, then start another 12 weeks followed by the above protocol with a month off after that then start again.
> 
> He did say that desensitization to HCG took around 2 months, and the dose of 2500 was fine and no damage or desensitization would occur if you followed his protocol.
> 
> There it is
> 
> Trackskii, can you respond to my post two posts back?
> 
> Thank you


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## taslajrisi

Oops I meant Hackskii


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## hackskii

taslajrisi said:


> Hackskii
> 
> I am a new member to UK muscle. I have read most of your posts on HPTA jumpstart etc. I am pretty much shut down right now. I don't want to go into detail but its the typcial too long on plus i am 41 and i did not use sufficient PCT as outlined per your doctor. I like the posts. I am going to do your doctors protocol but had some questions:
> 
> do you take the nolv/clomid at the same time as the HCG or do you start the SERMS after the HCG?
> 
> Is the below at the same time?
> 
> 15 days HCG
> 
> 30 days clom
> 
> 45 days nolva
> 
> or
> 
> 15 days HCG
> 
> THEN
> 
> 15 days clom AND 30 days nolva at the same time?
> 
> I was wondering what you thought of Tribestan. supposed to stimulate LH.
> 
> I am shut down from AAS pretty clear right now and want to get back to normal asap.


Start them all the same day, I would do the clomid and nolva in the morning, then clomid in the afternoon (both 50mg), then before bed, do the HCG.

If that keeps you awake then shoot in the morning, I cant shoot at night but I found this works the best.

Tribestin is poo poo, I waisted much money on that and the only thing I got from it is loss of money.

Save your money.

If you want supps, then take 1000iu vitamin E every day, take ZMA at night before bed empty stomach, this will help you sleep if the HCG is affecting things.

Melatonin is a great addition to aid in sleep too, and possible GH release when sleeping.

Cant tell you if it would aid in recovery, but it is suspect HGH is helpful.

Plus at 41 your melatonin levels will be compromised some anyway.

Just make sure that when you start your PCT that you have not been on for a while and make sure the stuff is cleared.

If you like you can give me a PM and tell me how much and how long you were on.

You should be fine, dont worry, stress wont help you here, you will be fine.



Robbyg said:


> So if you were using 500ius twice aweek through out the cycle would this still be ok and aid recovery still ? thanks Scott


You would not need anywhere near the amounts if you use it during than not.

You can continue using HCG along with an AI during the clearance time of your gear, then yes, you can continue low dose in the beginning of PCT. I did this last time and that recovery went by far the best.

I was shooting 500iu during the cycle twice a week, but I still noticed some testicular atrophy at the end of the cycle.

So, I kept doing the 500iu, then did 1,000iu EOD for like 4 shots, then kept the clomid and nolva as above.

That recovery went super easy, best one yet.


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## taslajrisi

Thanks so much Scott

I may PM you soon but I need a serious jumpstart as I did not use hcg during cycle. I know i experienced atrophy during cycle but thought it would bounce back with some clom/nolva or trib. Not the case. I have been off now for more than a month so everything is cleared. What do you think of DHEA?


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## taslajrisi

One last question....

Do you shoot HCG IM or SQ ?

I used to just use slin pin in a delt?


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## hackskii

Sub-Q on the HCG mate.

DHEA is awesome, it can supply the raw building materials for recovery of T levels, but it is best to aid in controlling cortisol.

But, too much converts to estrogen, so I would be very careful with this one, low dose is ok, something like 25mg max a day, high dose of DHEA can actually cause testicular atrophy.

It can elivate testosterone in women, and estrogen in men............

But for adrenal issues, it does work pretty killer and if you have been on for a long time, no doubt you will have adrenal burnout to some degree.


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## dan2004

hackskii said:


> Sub-Q on the HCG mate.
> 
> DHEA is awesome, it can supply the raw building materials for recovery of T levels, but it is best to aid in controlling cortisol.
> 
> But, too much converts to estrogen, so I would be very careful with this one, low dose is ok, something like 25mg max a day, high dose of DHEA can actually cause testicular atrophy.
> 
> It can elivate testosterone in women, and estrogen in men............
> 
> But for adrenal issues, it does work pretty killer and if you have been on for a long time, no doubt you will have adrenal burnout to some degree.


Hi Scott in conjunction with Rhom pct caps how does this look?

Week1-12 500mg Test per week.

week 12-14 2500hcg EOD

week 12-16 Rhom pct caps?

Would this work or does he advise use of pct for 45 days rather than standard 30?. And stupid Question but is that 2500 HCG split throughout the day EOD or in one go lol.


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## hackskii

dan2004 said:


> Hi Scott in conjunction with Rhom pct caps how does this look?
> 
> Week1-12 500mg Test per week.
> 
> week 12-14 2500hcg EOD
> 
> week 12-16 Rhom pct caps?
> 
> Would this work or does he advise use of pct for 45 days rather than standard 30?. And stupid Question but is that 2500 HCG split throughout the day EOD or in one go lol.


What kind of test?

You need some time for that to clear, if you dont recovery wont be possible.

How much test and what type?

Sorry about the Rhom caps, I dont really know what they contain.

I know basicly what is in there but not how much.

100mg a day of clomid works nice.

The HCG is shot at night before bed, about a couple of hours before would be nice.


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## dan2004

hackskii said:


> What kind of test?
> 
> You need some time for that to clear, if you dont recovery wont be possible.
> 
> How much test and what type?
> 
> Sorry about the Rhom caps, I dont really know what they contain.
> 
> I know basicly what is in there but not how much.
> 
> 100mg a day of clomid works nice.
> 
> The HCG is shot at night before bed, about a couple of hours before would be nice.


Weeks 1-12 Once Per Week @

Testosterone Heptylate 300mg

Nandralone Deconate 200mg

When would you kick the HCG/PCT in. So 2500 right before bed for 15 days EOD ? So would need 7 days worth at 2500.

I would assume id wait for the HCG 15 days before hitting the PCT Caps then? I think the contain Clomid,Nolvadex,Proviron and 1 other compound not sure how much either tho? How does that sound.


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## paulo

sticky for this surely??


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## hackskii

dan2004 said:


> Weeks 1-12 Once Per Week @
> 
> Testosterone Heptylate 300mg
> 
> Nandralone Deconate 200mg
> 
> When would you kick the HCG/PCT in. So 2500 right before bed for 15 days EOD ? So would need 7 days worth at 2500.
> 
> I would assume id wait for the HCG 15 days before hitting the PCT Caps then? I think the contain Clomid,Nolvadex,Proviron and 1 other compound not sure how much either tho? How does that sound.


Start PCT day 17 from last jab.

Start the PCT all at once and it is 8 shots of 2500 that is 20,000iu total of HCG.

I really dont know about the rhom caps to be honest.


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## hackskii

paulo said:


> sticky for this surely??


I think there should be just one sticky on PCT, and then posts that support it.

I would have to start over....lol

But it would be worth it.


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## hackskii

paulo said:


> sticky for this surely??


I put everything here: http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/steroid-testosterone-information/47593-understanding-pct.html


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## dan2004

Wow this is a great thread all the same. Has anyone FULLY tried and tested this version of recovery?

How does this look scott

*Weeks 1-12 Once Per Week @*

*
Testosterone Heptylate 300mg*

*
Nandralone Deconate 200mg*

*Weeks 1-12 E3D *

*
Arimidex 1Mg*

Then your PCT recovery 17days after last jab. Also Why 17 days instead of just 2 weeks? What does the extra 3 days compensate for?


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## hackskii

dan2004 said:


> Wow this is a great thread all the same. Has anyone FULLY tried and tested this version of recovery?
> 
> How does this look scott
> 
> *Weeks 1-12 Once Per Week @*
> 
> *
> Testosterone Heptylate 300mg*
> 
> *
> Nandralone Deconate 200mg*
> 
> *Weeks 1-12 E3D *
> 
> *
> Arimidex 1Mg*
> 
> Then your PCT recovery 17days after last jab. Also Why 17 days instead of just 2 weeks? What does the extra 3 days compensate for?


Well, you would not be clear in 14 days, and probably still in there after 21 days, but beings that you are using the HCG for 15 days, that and the 17 days, things should be out completly by day 32 once you drop the HCG and continue with the clomid and nolva.


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## chrismac

So.... to put it more clearly?:-

1st HCG shot to be done 17 days after the last jab of say Test Enan.

8 shots of HCG @ 2500iu EOD [lasting 15 days]

with the above take 20 mg of nolvadex ED and Clomid @ 100mg ED split to 50mg taking 12 hours apart for 45 days.

Is that right?


----------



## miller25

PCT is becoming over complicated now, in fact steroid use is to many theories flying around. I'm sticking to what I know and what works for me.


----------



## taslajrisi

hackskii

thanks again for the info

I want to send you a PM but i cannot see the send PM button on your posts for some reason. Perhaps the PM function is not active for me yet? Can you help with getting me PM access? I got the welcome PM from Admin but cannot reply or anything. I would like to PM you some info on my situation if possible.


----------



## hackskii

chrismac said:


> So.... to put it more clearly?:-
> 
> 1st HCG shot to be done 17 days after the last jab of say Test Enan.
> 
> 8 shots of HCG @ 2500iu EOD [lasting 15 days]
> 
> with the above take 20 mg of nolvadex ED and Clomid @ 100mg ED split to 50mg taking 12 hours apart for 45 days.
> 
> Is that right?


Yes, 30 days clomid and 45 days nolva.

But, this would change some if you use HCG during, or the cycle was not a supressive one.

This aggressive PCT protocol is for those that are shut down.



miller25 said:


> PCT is becoming over complicated now, in fact steroid use is to many theories flying around. I'm sticking to what I know and what works for me.


It is not complicated at all.

HCG for the testicular axis.

Clomid and nolva for the pituitary/hypothalamus axis.

Both need to be addressed or recovery will be compromised.



taslajrisi said:


> hackskii
> 
> thanks again for the info
> 
> I want to send you a PM but i cannot see the send PM button on your posts for some reason. Perhaps the PM function is not active for me yet? Can you help with getting me PM access? I got the welcome PM from Admin but cannot reply or anything. I would like to PM you some info on my situation if possible.


I am not sure why you cant PM


----------



## ba baracuss

chilisi said:


> hi hackskii
> 
> very intersting thread...but im still not 100% sure on when to start the pct as ive always been lead to believe its 2 weeks after your last injection (long ester) but ive just been told you "should" wait 3 weeks by another poster..
> 
> so i checked a few websites and some say 3 weeks and some say 2?
> 
> ive always used 2 myself so can you shed some light on this please..
> 
> thanks
> 
> si.


As I said in the other thread mate it depends how long the long ester is AFAIK - sustanon and deca have the decanoate ester which is longer than enanthate, but enanthate is still a 'long ester'.

Hopefully Hacks can confirm either way.


----------



## hackskii

lol, hammered dudes...................Been drinking, and having a bit of some smoke...........But just enjoying myself burping,.................lol

I will say this.

If, you start too early, you will compromise recovery................

Starting too late?...................And?..................No compromise at all, as we are talking about days, not weeks................

Why should the recovery be compromised?

Recovery is simple, but one of the determining factors is self...........

Sorry, totally distracted here...............................Partying............lol.................

Not taking a serious matter lightly, just having a good time.

For what it is worth, I dont mind sharing anythying I know............After all, I didnt pay for any of that..............For what it is worth..............


----------



## Rebus

Forgive me if ive misread a post or two here, but im sure one or two state you start the pct, or atleast the hcg the day after your last jab and run that for 15days and then start the clomid and nolvadex regime.

Another states ( im sure:confused1: ) to start the whole lot together 17days after the last test shot, and again i think a post suggests starting the whoe lot the day after too and run the 45day protocol.

I think this could do with being cleared up.....maybe for my benefit if ive got up to early and misread the posts,,,,,doh...


----------



## Sylar

hackskii said:


> lol, hammered dudes...................Been drinking, and having a bit of some smoke...........But just enjoying myself burping,.................lol
> 
> I will say this.
> 
> If, you start too early, you will compromise recovery................
> 
> Starting too late?...................And?..................No compromise at all, as we are talking about days, not weeks................
> 
> Why should the recovery be compromised?
> 
> Recovery is simple, but one of the determining factors is self...........
> 
> Sorry, totally distracted here...............................Partying............lol.................
> 
> Not taking a serious matter lightly, just having a good time.
> 
> For what it is worth, I dont mind sharing anythying I know............After all, I didnt pay for any of that..............For what it is worth..............


Not hard to tell when you been on the beer and wacky baccy mate, the full stops come out to play with vengeance! lol...............................................:laugh:...............................


----------



## Robbyg

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robbyg View Post

So if you were using 500ius twice aweek through out the cycle would this still be ok and aid recovery still ? thanks Scott

You would not need anywhere near the amounts if you use it during than not.

You can continue using HCG along with an AI during the clearance time of your gear, then yes, you can continue low dose in the beginning of PCT. I did this last time and that recovery went by far the best.

I was shooting 500iu during the cycle twice a week, but I still noticed some testicular atrophy at the end of the cycle.

So, I kept doing the 500iu, then did 1,000iu EOD for like 4 shots, then kept the clomid and nolva as above.

That recovery went super easy, best one yet.

Thanks Scott just wanted to check that it was still ok to use whilst on cycle but to look for any testicular atrophy at the end of the cycle:thumb: :thumb:


----------



## soze

hacksii does ur above protocol apply to someone who is only running an 8 weeks cycle of sust @ 1ml a week, surely shutdown here wouldnt warrant such high doses of hcg??


----------



## LukeVTS

wow. my eyes have been glued to my monitor! GREAT read hackskii. is this protocall just for someone with complete shut down? Do you have an example PCT (inc clomid and tamoxifen) for someone who has used HCG throughout the cycle? im guessing the 2500 would be way too much as testicular atrophy would probably be minimal anyway. Also, is this saying that after the 45 days, you would be able to go straight back on cycle?


----------



## hackskii

soze said:


> hacksii does ur above protocol apply to someone who is only running an 8 weeks cycle of sust @ 1ml a week, surely shutdown here wouldnt warrant such high doses of hcg??


Possibly not, especially if HCG was used during the cycle.

250mg of sust for 8 weeks would not be supressive at all, in fact some dudes probably wont even need HCG with this amount.

But run 250mg for 6 months and it could take more than 10 weeks to recover with no intervention. Some guys even longer.



LukeVTS said:


> wow. my eyes have been glued to my monitor! GREAT read hackskii. is this protocall just for someone with complete shut down? Do you have an example PCT (inc clomid and tamoxifen) for someone who has used HCG throughout the cycle? im guessing the 2500 would be way too much as testicular atrophy would probably be minimal anyway. Also, is this saying that after the 45 days, you would be able to go straight back on cycle?


Complete shutdown then the above protocol would work very nicely.

HCG throughout, the HCG portion of the PCT would be potentially either very low or potentially not at all.

I run HCG during my PCT because even at 500iu twice a week I still get testicular atrophy by the end of the cycle, no sense in the testicles not being fully recovered with the addition of the SERMS.


----------



## Trenzyme

dose youre doc suggest a low dose ai in pct , i find it helps a treat


----------



## hackskii

Trenzyme said:


> dose youre doc suggest a low dose ai in pct , i find it helps a treat


No, in fact I asked him and he said it wasnt necessary.

Remember just 20mg of nolva can lower blood serum levels of letro by 38%, and it is around 28% with adex from my best guess.

I like to run an AI low dose during the cycle.


----------



## Sylar

hackskii said:


> Remember just 20mg of nolva can lower blood serum levels of letro by 38%, and it is around 28% with adex from my best guess..


It has no effect on Aromasin though.

I'm running Aromasin with my PCT at the moment and i am convinced it's helping.


----------



## hackskii

chilisi said:


> just to confirm this ongoing issue im having...
> 
> does the doc reccommend starting the pct 17 days no matter what long or short ester used.
> 
> as some are suggested 3 days,some 2 weeks and some are suggested 3 weeks..?? :confused1: :confused1:


The doc never said that, the start time for PCT is dependant on amount of gear used, and the ester attached to it.

For instance 300mg of test E, 2 weeks would be ok to start PCT, and you could wait 3 weeks to be safe, or switch to a faster ester like prop, then wait 3 days.

But for lets say 600mg of deca, hell you could wait a month, same for a Gram of cypionate, a month.

500 sust could be a month too.

It depends on the amount of mg being shot, and the ester attached.

A gram of sust, you may wait longer than a month.

100mg of enanthate 6 days

See?


----------



## TaintedSoul

hackskii said:


> The doc never said that, the start time for PCT is dependant on amount of gear used, and the ester attached to it.
> 
> For instance 300mg of test E, 2 weeks would be ok to start PCT, and you could wait 3 weeks to be safe, or switch to a faster ester like prop, then wait 3 days.
> 
> But for lets say 600mg of deca, hell you could wait a month, same for a Gram of cypionate, a month.
> 
> 500 sust could be a month too.
> 
> It depends on the amount of mg being shot, and the ester attached.
> 
> A gram of sust, you may wait longer than a month.
> 
> 100mg of enanthate 6 days
> 
> See?


mmmmm I think some graphs would be nice to give people a clearer understanding of blood levels and why to start PCT at various times due to amount used.

There was a link once that showed your total test as the course went along and as the half levels dimished near the end. Reinstalled PC so many times since there I have lost it now. :confused1:


----------



## hackskii

Yah, the roid calculator.

But, honestly I can go by my own feelings as androgens effect me big time and I can tell the diffrence without counting days.


----------



## brownie

Robbyg said:


> Quote:
> 
> Originally Posted by Robbyg View Post
> 
> So if you were using 500ius twice aweek through out the cycle would this still be ok and aid recovery still ? thanks Scott
> 
> You would not need anywhere near the amounts if you use it during than not.
> 
> You can continue using HCG along with an AI during the clearance time of your gear, then yes, you can continue low dose in the beginning of PCT. I did this last time and that recovery went by far the best.
> 
> I was shooting 500iu during the cycle twice a week, but I still noticed some testicular atrophy at the end of the cycle.
> 
> So, I kept doing the 500iu, then did 1,000iu EOD for like 4 shots, then kept the clomid and nolva as above.
> 
> That recovery went super easy, best one yet.
> 
> Thanks Scott just wanted to check that it was still ok to use whilst on cycle but to look for any testicular atrophy at the end of the cycle:thumb: :thumb:


once again great post,.. i did almost the exact protocol,.. with great recovery.. this was based on advice that hakski has given in the past..

i did however run hcg 1000iu eod for 6 shots and i also ran nolva for 6 weeks


----------



## Trenzyme

Sylar said:


> It has no effect on Aromasin though.
> 
> I'm running Aromasin with my PCT at the moment and i am convinced it's helping.


i do to mate and know it helps ..12.5 mg eod


----------



## albie

Rohm PCT caps contain:

proviron - 20mg

Nolvadex - 20mg

Clomid - 50mg

H1/Alpha CT290 - 7.5mg.

So would 45 days of these with the 2500iu eod of Hcg (8 shots) be ok? 2 pct caps/day, one am, one pm.


----------



## hackskii

albie said:


> Rohm PCT caps contain:
> 
> proviron - 20mg
> 
> Nolvadex - 20mg
> 
> Clomid - 50mg
> 
> H1/Alpha CT290 - 7.5mg.
> 
> So would 45 days of these with the 2500iu eod of Hcg (8 shots) be ok? 2 pct caps/day, one am, one pm.


Yah, but I dont like that much nolva in there.

I would buy some clomid and add to that.

What does H1/Alpha CT290 do?


----------



## taslajrisi

Scott

What AI to you typically use in cycle? Aromasin? Proviron?

I have used letro but its too strong plus there is estro rebound. I hate it now because it cannot be tapered off of it without rebound.

Is proviron minimally suppressive? What about eq? I want to avoid anything overly suppressive like deca

thanks


----------



## hackskii

I am using aromasin right now, low dose.

Proviron is too expensive and I dont think the return on investment is worth the cost.

Letro is very strong, it crushed my libido on cycle.

Proviron is one of those things that there seems to be much debate about.

Some say it is supressive, some say it isnt, and there are some studies to say either one maybe correct.

If a good PCT is outlined and followed, no need for proviron, that just eats up some more of your money, it is not needed for recovery.

If it is for sex, PT-141 maybe even a better option.


----------



## taslajrisi

Scott

Lets assume that we get the HPTA fully recovered and fired up fine. If someone wanted to take off like 6 months or so from AAS (and be natural) but wanted to keep natural test levels elevated.....what would be the best way to do this? Would low dose aromasin or like a 6-oxo work to increase natty test levels and keep the HPTA fully working fine?

Just wondering how to maximize natural levels after fully successful HPTA recovery/PCT and not take AAS for a while.


----------



## hackskii

Well, that would be achieved not with drugs, but the strongest drug known to man, food.

Not to mention lifestyle, and training.

Blocking estrogen for the hell of it in the assumption of raising testosterone levels in men is not a good idea.

Well, not unless you are one of those guys that produce alot of estrogen naturally.

But certain foods can either raise or lower estrogen.


----------



## taslajrisi

Scott,

I am doing the protocol and what i did was 2500 eod for two shots, then 1500 eod for three shots and by my third shot, my balls were huge and almost engorged (big as ever). After that I started doing 1000 eod now. I definately felt the androgen/test surge in system.

It seems like the balls went down a bit from that initial engorgement size. Is this normal? I keep reading that a too high a dose initially will render the second or next shots not as effective (anthony roberts PCT). Is this true?

Can say for sure they are back to life.....just hope they stay up after HCG and only on serms.......any comments would be appreciated.

Thanks


----------



## hackskii

taslajrisi said:


> Thanks so much Scott
> 
> I may PM you soon but I need a serious jumpstart as I did not use hcg during cycle. I know i experienced atrophy during cycle but thought it would bounce back with some clom/nolva or trib. Not the case. I have been off now for more than a month so everything is cleared. What do you think of DHEA?





paulo said:


> sticky for this surely??





taslajrisi said:


> Scott,
> 
> I am doing the protocol and what i did was 2500 eod for two shots, then 1500 eod for three shots and by my third shot, my balls were huge and almost engorged (big as ever). After that I started doing 1000 eod now. I definately felt the androgen/test surge in system.
> 
> It seems like the balls went down a bit from that initial engorgement size. Is this normal? I keep reading that a too high a dose initially will render the second or next shots not as effective (anthony roberts PCT). Is this true?
> 
> Can say for sure they are back to life.....just hope they stay up after HCG and only on serms.......any comments would be appreciated.
> 
> Thanks


Anthony Roberts is an ass and I would take his words with a grain of salt.

Now that I got that out of the way. 

Desensitization isnt really an issue with the use of nolva in the picture.

You can use less after the start of the bigger doses, testicles will become more sensitive from the stimulation of HCG anyway.

But, the whole idea here is to use the HCG till endogenous levels come to speed, once this happens, drop the HCG and continue with the SERMS.


----------



## Guest

Scott after my contest i am doing 8 weeks of test only, final two weeks are down ramp.

Am i correct in running aromasin every day during this period along with hcg every 3rd day until pct begins?

Will obviously be pming you closer to the time but i like to get things prepared in my head........

The value of your posts are undeniable, the celery tip for one is a total winner!


----------



## hackskii

Thanks for the kind words mate.

What the plan is to keep estrogen in check, not high, not low, run the HCG as kind of a primer to offer some stimulation to the nuts.

Ideally, the whole deal with the taper is to get you used to lower androgen levels in the body so you wont crash.

Doubt that 3 weeks would offer you this. 8 weeks for sure, and then once you stepped into PCT recovery should be fairly easy.

Problems happen when guys run much gear like more than a gram a week for long periods, some guys (I have known), crash on 400mg a week of cyp. Which is 4 times his natty production.

So, comming off clean, and going into PCT would be a terrible crash for that dude.

Once you get your levels back to about normal endogenous production levels, comming off is nothing more than switching the nuts on.

Once the nuts are switched, then it is time to switch the hypothalamus and pituitary.

The SERMS would still stimulate the leydig cells above normal LH levels an offer some decent stimulation.

Providing you dont get problems with the clomid.

Some guys have terrible problems with clomid and mood, it can turn dudes into chicks. 

Feel sorry for them as clomid is the best thing for priming the pituitary.

Hope this explains the game plan better.


----------



## Guest

Erm....i think i get it mate

As far as doses i really very rarely run any thing over a gram and my rebound will not be that high. More than likely 700mg prop for 5 weeks then 525mg for 1 week 350mg 1 week 175mg 1 week then straight into pct. My real goal with the rebound is to gain some muscle yet keep a good level of conditioning while i come of fat burners and then slowly taper off the cardio so i can start pct with a lean body and hopefully not gain a lot of fat during pct(i will gain some as i rather do that than under eat, i have done that once and results sucked).

I have never crashed as such.

Clomid is a bit a lame i will admit, moody and eye sight gets a bit weird but i dont care as long as the job gets done:thumbup1:

I will mail you after my contest and we can chat about how to do every thing completely including the hmg. Thanks for helping me Scott


----------



## glanzav

so thats for hpta

what about full recovery so all blood work is right

immune system is strong again

didnt dutch scott say it took 18months to fully recover from aas

i have been on and off for 2 years more time on the off big time i admitt it and i no its wrong

i have started this pct proticole even though i have had no problems with nuts srinking trouble with erections or sexual drive

i just wanna get myself back to normal then i will start short cycle blasts like one month on 6 weeks off so on

im running hgh at the mo and as iv only just started back training with having time off once my training is under way im gonna use petitides to hold onto wat i got and try and make small lean gains while i recover


----------



## hackskii

glanzav said:


> so thats for hpta
> 
> what about full recovery so all blood work is right
> 
> immune system is strong again
> 
> didnt dutch scott say it took 18months to fully recover from aas
> 
> i have been on and off for 2 years more time on the off big time i admitt it and i no its wrong
> 
> i have started this pct proticole even though i have had no problems with nuts srinking trouble with erections or sexual drive
> 
> i just wanna get myself back to normal then i will start short cycle blasts like one month on 6 weeks off so on
> 
> im running hgh at the mo and as iv only just started back training with having time off once my training is under way im gonna use petitides to hold onto wat i got and try and make small lean gains while i recover


I promised con I would help him in every avenue, like adrenal fatigue, which happens during long cycles, cholesterol, which gets seriously compromised as well.

His BP will stabilize once he comes off and, with some of the stuff I am going to have him do I doubt seriously there will be any problems.

But, this will be an interesting learning experience for a guy that has been on for a while.

To be honest, I don't expect anything less that success.

I know he is a bit worried, but he needs to leave that up to me.

Most of the stuff I am going to give him is over the counter herbal type stuff to help with his cholesterol and adrenal fatigue.

He isn't going to have kids yet, so that part of the equation does not have to be 100%.

The goal here is to get most everything taken care of. I would not be surprised if he can get a woman pregnant by the time this is all done.


----------



## MUSCLEPT

H,

Can you please help me out on my PCT and correct it if applicable.?. Also when should it actually start..?

CYCLE:

week 1 - 4 tren100 @ 1ml eod

week 1 - 4 stan100 @ 50mg EOD

week 1 - 4 test pro @ eod

PCT

1 shots of 1500IU HCG eod ( total of 8 shots)

45 days nolvadex @ 25mg/d

30 Days Clomid (1st 14r days @ 100mg, rest @ 50mg/d)


----------



## the hunter

weeks 1-4 100mgs tren eod

weeks 1-4 50mgs winstrol ed (winstrol need to be taken everyday due to is very short half life)

weels 1-4 100mgs test prop eod

weeks 1-5 500iu hcg every 3rd day

2 days after last shots start pct -

nolvadex 40/20/20/20

clomid 100/50/50/25


----------



## hackskii

4 week cycle?

You could speed the PCT along with doing the HCG during the cycle, and right up to the start of PCT.

Probably wont need a month on SERMS for a month long cycle.


----------



## MUSCLEPT

hackskii said:


> 4 week cycle?
> 
> You could speed the PCT along with doing the HCG during the cycle, and right up to the start of PCT.
> 
> Probably wont need a month on SERMS for a month long cycle.


OK. You mean HCG during the cycle? How many shots and how often of how much?

Here's the thing... i have got 1500UI HCG and if i don't know/can split the amount ...last time i tried it absolutely did not do anything for me..

Regarding the SERMS how would you go about it?

Thanks for your time...


----------



## hackskii

Send me a PM and that way I can ask you more questions, not all PCT's one uses a standard protocol.

Depending on other factors things need modifications.


----------



## Billy P

hackskii said:


> I talked to the doc today on the phone and he answered many questions for me in regards to recovery of the HPTA.
> 
> For those of you who don't know what that is it is "Hypothalamus Pituitary Testicular Axis"
> 
> After administration of AAS, you have shutdown of the HPTA. Depending on the meds taken shutdown can be severe and much does depend on the person as well.
> 
> This is the protocol the doc said he used in literally thousands of users with suppressed HPTA.
> 
> First thing, the 500iu a day was not enough to make the testicles do their job, he suggested this was just a waste of time and money.
> 
> He suggests 8 shots of HCG @ 2500iu EOD.
> 
> With this you take 20 mg of nolvadex for 45 days.
> 
> Clomid is also taken but twice a day @ 50mg each dose 12 hours apart.
> 
> The reason for the amounts of HCG (which is the most important part, if the balls don't fire everything else is worthless), is based on his determination to bring the balls back to life, too little wont accomplish this, too much risks damage to the Leydig cells.
> 
> So he basically was saying that you do the HCG and around day 10 of the above protocol, you should get a blood test for testosterone. If it is above 400 or greater then this says the balls will be just fine once you get off the HCG and the Clomid and nolva take over. This will accept the LH that you are putting out to maintain testicular function.
> 
> He used the term like jumping a car. Your battery (Pituitary gland) if low wont start your car (your testicles), if you use another car and jumper cables (HCG) once the car starts your battery (HP part of the HPTA) will keep your car running.
> 
> The clomid by itself he suggested can inhibit either the pituitary or the hypothalamus (can't remember which one) but if taken with nolva this blocks the estrogen receptors so you wont inhibit that.
> 
> So clomid in his protocol is always taken with nolvadex ALWAYS.
> 
> He did mention that sometimes the balls just don't take and then you do the protocol again. He said it was rare that he could not fire up the HPTA.
> 
> He said that beings that I have good size difference (balls), feel good, strength gains, and a greasy face he felt I should have no problems with returning the HPTA.
> 
> Some things he said was tribulis was actually inhibitory on the HPTA, great I wish I found that out after I bought two bottles.
> 
> ZMA, he said if it made me feel good then go for it but it is placebo and the HCG, clomid, nolva was it and all that is needed.
> 
> Talked to him about progesterone and he said never take that if you are a man (the last doc prescribed it to me)
> 
> Sorry aftershock, I forgot to ask him about the GH question he was saying so much I was just trying to listen.
> 
> One thing he did mention (in an article) was that HGH actually helped with the testicular recovery with things and adding that to the Protocol is a good idea and productive.
> 
> Avoid aspirin when on HCG as it kind of ruins the effects.
> 
> He said oxandrolone was suppressive on the HPTA, but Deca and Anadrol were probably the worst in his opinion. I asked him about tren but he had no knowledge as he never used it.
> 
> He did mention that test in itself was not all that suppressive and he has seen guys on 18 months that came off and made a full recovery in 45 days with the above protocol.
> 
> He said one of the best ways was 12 weeks of test, followed by the above protocol, then start another 12 weeks followed by the above protocol with a month off after that then start again.
> 
> He did say that desensitization to HCG took around 2 months, and the dose of 2500 was fine and no damage or desensitization would occur if you followed his protocol.
> 
> There it is.


----------



## Billy P

I need serious help.I was useing T as a replacement thearapy to feel younger no crazy amounts.Long story short I started having problems in the bedrooom and panicked and thought my T levels must be low BAD mistake took more than usual and it made it worse went to an Endo my LH and FSH levels were at 0 with a T level of over 2000 all she could say was stop the stuff and di not even bother with an E level on 4-3-09 Long story short all I used for PCR was Nolvadex and some Caber I actually looked better than ever and lost 20lbs of bloat and was seeeing improvement in the bedroom.Started feeling like **** again had blood work 5-15-09 from family Dr my LH levels are .4 FSH 1.2 and my T level down to 64 and E levels over 130 and ran out of Nolvadex i am feeling like pure ****.Have to see a uroligist who mt Dr says knows about this stuff but please need advice he cant just give me Androgel I need to know if the HCG and clomid and Nolva will work my FSH levels are up and it was making a difference till my T levels dropped to nothing they must be worse now.It is ruieing my whole life.


----------



## Billy P

Sorry for the misprints just upset.I was useing T for a few years again not a crazy amount untill I was having problems with my wood and panicked again what do I tell this Dr tommorow at the end of my rope i need an HPTA jumpstart bad.


----------



## hackskii

Oh, trust me your problems you mentioned are quite common, just many dont talk about it, and generally they just go back on.

I like you was on TRT and it was fantastic at first, then it was not fantastic at all.

I did a PCT and got off of TRT.

I do know a guy that specializes in your very same condition called Anabolic Steroid Induced Hypogonadism (AISH).

The problem right now is the fact that you are low in testosterone, this in itself can manafest in medical conditions.

The sooner you get your T levels up the better.

If I were you, I would start on HCG, clomid and nolva today.

Drop everything else and I would use that.

If you can get your hands on some HMG then even better.

You should be ok within 45 days of the doctors protocol.

I can get you into contact with him if you like.

Here is his e-mail address but he does the consultations for money. [email protected]

This is the very same doctor that I used.


----------



## Billy P

Another big question if I use HCG will I see a quick improvment especially in the bedroom dont care about muscle gains now and will it stunt my LH FSH improvement I cant walk around like this.


----------



## YoungGun

Scott.

It says here, you can recover in 45 days, which i don't doubt.

But if this is the case, why is it a big no no to go back on with little or no time after PCT?


----------



## Billy P

Thankyou I was feeling like a superman on the thearaphy now I feel like twiggy just hope my Dr tommoorw understands my 64 T level is making me unfunctionable my doc yesterday was very worried and gave me some androgel till I see the Uroligist tommorow.That endo wanted my T levels to go to 0 and start from new she never even heard of nolvadex or clomid.


----------



## Billy P

If I go back on I am afraid that my LH and FSH levels will drop I could easily take a 200mg dose of T .I do believe the 6 weeks of Nolva did help get my LH and FSH levels up from 0 to LH .4 FSH 1.2 .I have not touched anything but nolvadex for 2 months now.


----------



## Billy P

Thanks I hope this uroligist understands tommorow


----------



## hackskii

Billy P said:


> Another big question if I use HCG will I see a quick improvment especially in the bedroom dont care about muscle gains now and will it stunt my LH FSH improvement I cant walk around like this.


You should notice the very next day an improvement.



YoungGun said:


> Scott.
> 
> It says here, you can recover in 45 days, which i don't doubt.
> 
> But if this is the case, why is it a big no no to go back on with little or no time after PCT?


Adrenal glands and lipid profiles among other things would take time to come back into homeostasis.



Billy P said:


> Thankyou I was feeling like a superman on the thearaphy now I feel like twiggy just hope my Dr tommoorw understands my 64 T level is making me unfunctionable my doc yesterday was very worried and gave me some androgel till I see the Uroligist tommorow.That endo wanted my T levels to go to 0 and start from new she never even heard of nolvadex or clomid.


You need PCT not androgel, although androgel will help you right now, but this is treating the symptom and not the cause, that my friend is backwards.



Billy P said:


> If I go back on I am afraid that my LH and FSH levels will drop I could easily take a 200mg dose of T .I do believe the 6 weeks of Nolva did help get my LH and FSH levels up from 0 to LH .4 FSH 1.2 .I have not touched anything but nolvadex for 2 months now.


Clomid in my opinion is far superior than nolva, taken together seems to have some synergy.


----------



## Billy P

Thankyou so much I need to tell this doc to get me on HCG that is the hardest part if he wont do it I need to take matters in my own hands and that is going to cost me big bucks and time.Biggest worry is getting my LH and FSH levels up with out them all the T on earth is useless.Question which is the level that affects the wood LH or FSH noticed a big difference in my ejaculations since my FSH went up to 1.2 from 0 but was dropping my T levels bad at the same time so my sex drive was going down bad .Had to take a small dose of androgel today till I see the doc tommorow .


----------



## hackskii

LH and FSH suprisingly comes back fairly fast, it is the T levels that come slow, and can take up to a year, with no intervention.


----------



## Billy P

Ok need more help please.Again I had a bad shut down and went off everything now for over 2 months .My endo wanted me to just recover natural which is killing me.My uroligist now wants me on a low dose of androgel 10 mg a day and says the LH FSH levels will rise as long as he monitors them.


----------



## Billy P

Need an awnswer my doc would hear nothing of this PCR if you saw my last few posts I was shut down hard due to very high T levels .Have been off the T now over 2 months used only Nolvadex for PCR my T levels were down to 35 today from 65 2 weeks ago.I cant live like this my LHwent up to .7 now and FSH 1.4 all were at 0 the time of the shutdown .For now my Doc wants me on a CAREFULLY watched HRT and swears as long as he keeps the T in range my other hormones will heal .I can not get the Clomaid HCG and Nolva for a while and see no other choice right now.If I am monitored strictly can I live a NORMAL life and he will moitor everything I know it is not a cure but I need a remidy for now .


----------



## Billy P

I will get the PCR by any means possible no dr will do it.For now I have try to just mask it f for now with low doses of androgel not as a cure just a temp treatment till i get the PCR I need.I just need to get my life back I am engaged and cant suffer from this now the 8 weeks of PCR with just Nolva did start to help but the low T levels really killed my sexual performance big time.I am scared.


----------



## hackskii

Billy P said:


> Need an awnswer my doc would hear nothing of this PCR if you saw my last few posts I was shut down hard due to very high T levels .Have been off the T now over 2 months used only Nolvadex for PCR my T levels were down to 35 today from 65 2 weeks ago.I cant live like this my LHwent up to .7 now and FSH 1.4 all were at 0 the time of the shutdown .For now my Doc wants me on a CAREFULLY watched HRT and swears as long as he keeps the T in range my other hormones will heal .I can not get the Clomaid HCG and Nolva for a while and see no other choice right now.If I am monitored strictly can I live a NORMAL life and he will moitor everything I know it is not a cure but I need a remidy for now .


Me personally I feel your doctor is wrong about this.

This is a typical solution that they will give you.

He is treating the symptom and not the cause.

TRT will not restore LH and FSH levels, it cant, these are the hormones that come from the pituitary to tell the body to make testosterone and sperm.

No way LH will increase endogenous Testosterone production as it is been added exogeniously.

I dont see how.

The body wont produce testosterone with you on 10mg androgel which is the strongest one they have, it comes in 5mg, 7.5, and 10mg formulations.

But, you can stay on that till you get some HCG, then you can do a proper PCT and get the stuff back rolling again.

LH and FSH come back fairly quickly and up to just 2 weeks, testosterone levels will take up to a year with no intervention and some even longer.

I have no doubt in my mind you can be fixed up.

Clomid will double LH output between 5 to 7 days @ 100mg ED, and increase FSH by up to 20% to 50%.

Both of those would be of benefits to you.

Research chemical places sell these.

The whole issue here is your nuts, they are lazy and you need to jump start them with HCG, or HMG.

Both together will offer you a fine synergy for recovery.

Your doctor wont treat the cause, because he does not know how, as evident of him putting you on TRT.

Hope this helps


----------



## Billy P

I know I felt too good having A boost of androgel after being depleted for so long if it were that easy why not everyone do it and know i will just be right back in the same boat I was in if I dont get a serious PRC I am just scared I am sorry I touched the stuff I can not focus on anything but this problem never thought it could happen to me if anyone can send me some positive thoughts please I need them I am really scared.My Endo wants me to wait it out my Uroligist wants me on HRT i know neither are the right one.i am beyond depressed at this point.


----------



## hackskii

Well, remember that testosterone is essential to good mental health.

I can assure you that if you follow that I say to the letter, I have no doubt in my mind that withing 2 days of starting that protocol you will be feeling much better.

You will need 45 tabs of nolvadex (20mg), 60 tabs of clomid @ 50mg each, and 20,000iu HCG.

I guarantee you will have success in 45 days of you starting the PCT.

If you dont mind me asking, how many mg were you on and of what were you taking, and how long were you on?


----------



## Billy P

I was useing Test cypo off and on about 4 years at about 200mg a week .I was more useing it as anti ageing with no supervision I am 42 now .started having problems in the bedroom around Feb. I once used Decca a long time ago and knew it was the same symptoms . Thought it was too low of T levels used more than I usually do bad move Saw an endo April 2 had a t level of over 2000 and a 0 FSH and LH level quit cold turkey had blood levels done May 11 had a T level of 64 LH .4 FSH 1.2 and an E level of 132 my endo never even took an e level used only Nolvadex for pcr started feeling better in the sack till my T levels dropped big time just had more blood work yesterday from a uroligist who said I need T in my sytstem now but seemed cluless about the HPTA nd it scared me.


----------



## hackskii

Well, long term use of steroids increases the supression of the HPTA.

Me personally I would do a PCT and be done with it all.

Remember TRT replacement therapy is not going to fix the underlying problem here, only will treat the symptom.

The real problem is Anabolic Steroid Induced Hypogonadism (AISH), and believe it or not there are doctors that specialize in this and it happens to be the one that this thread was started for.

Its almost criminal for doctors to treat this disorder using TRT, or leaving it alone.

Low testosterone levels come with a whole host of problems for men.

I had a 63 test level once after a winstrol cycle, friggen sucks.


----------



## Billy P

I trust you Scott if my LHwas.4 and FSH 1.2 on May 11 I am sure they went up by now just do not know how long androgel can treat the problem not cure till I get my PCR meds


----------



## Billy P

But the pcr will cure the HPTA of the pituitary that is the main concern the endo understands it but wants me to wait it out the uroligist does not and just wants to give me androgel it sucks.and ruining my realationship big time.


----------



## hackskii

here is the deal, the HPTA consists of the pituitary and the nuts.

For primary hypogonadism this is the testicles are not producing testosterone even in light of LH from the pituitary.

Secondary hypogonadism is where the pituitary is not sending LH to the leydig cells in the testicles to produce testosterone.

Suggesting from your endo that you are secondary hypogonadism is probably not right.

Due to the fact that your LH levels are so low, the nuts arnt going to do much.

The very test that the endo will do is called a clomid stimulation test, they will use the very same drugs that guys on PCT use.

Why?

Because it works to stimulate the pituitary.

The test that they use for testing the nuts is the HCG stimulation test, this forces the nuts to respond with huge doses of LH.

Why?

Because taking blood after this test will suggest if testosterone is being produced.

So, you are not secondary hypogonadism, you are primary from steroid use.

I would fire both of your doctors, they are not worth the money you are paying them, they dont have a clue how to treat this.


----------



## Billy P

Another question why was I having ED problems to begin with if I had such a high level of T was it due to the low levels of LH and FSH which were 0 then according to blood work again they were taken again one month later now with a .4 LH 1.2 FSH but only a 64 t level we are talking over a 2000 T drop in one month.Again had blood work yesterday one month later did not get the results yet but my T levels had to drop more but my LH and FSH had to go up I would believe.Another if I start this HRT could i maintain it for life and live a normal life or will i just feel good for a while and the whole nightmare start all over again.How do they even monitor how much T is allowed in your system and keep it at a level where you can function normal just want to know .Thankyou for your info so much.Ned to know.


----------



## Billy P

Also see a big difference in my nut size the last 2 months just not alot of stimulation of course the huge drop in T would do that.


----------



## Billy P

Weird when I use the gel I get a surge and some wood for a while but this is not the cure.


----------



## hackskii

LH and FSH being zero would only cause some ED issues if the nuts are not responding.

Remember you were taking exogenous steroids so endogenous hormones dont need to be made, this is why FSH and LH were zero.

Once off the pituitary is starting to come back online but the nuts are not responding.

This is where the magic of HCG comes into play.

Injecting some of that, will within 2 days make you feel like that test gel will.

This is starting your nuts on their road to recovery.

Once those are back working, then you need to fire the pituitary, this will be done with the clomid and nolva.

You can fix this problem easy.


----------



## Billy P

Moderator please I need some real help . I will do what it takes to get my HPTA back but the Drs are makeing it worse I need questions and advice it is destroying my life if you can get me at [email protected] or even call me at 917 569-4865 yes giving my # because that is how desperate I am I need to talk to some one who has been through this PLEASE! I am so shutdown and Androgel is making it worse only relieving the mental fogness.I have to get my pituitary restarted .Fast


----------



## hackskii

You got email bro.


----------



## Eggo26

Hi hackskii i would like to know what you think about my PCT. I have been following this protocol for the last 10 days.

My cycle was composed by 100 mg test prop EOD total of 350mg a week more or less. I had last shot of Testo prop and after 2 day i did 2000 iu HGC and the day after i started with this pct protocol:

day 1 to 3 100 mg clomid + 20 mg nolva

day 4 to 35 50 mg clomid + 20 mg nolva

Now after i have read your article i was wondering if another 2000iu HGC could help me now. Today is the 10th day i'm running this protocol.

what do u think and suggest?

cheers


----------



## hackskii

If the nuts are not online then you wont have much success.

Getting those buddys to work could take months with no intervention.

Id like to see more clomid in there as well.


----------



## Eggo26

hackskii said:


> Id like to see more clomid in there as well.


I can't take more clomid coz i get bad sides effects (nausea, sight problems...)

i still have one 2000iu vials of HCG i would like to know if it is a good idea to inject it or should i keep going the same way as the last 10 days.

cheers


----------



## hackskii

Well, how long was your cycle for?

If your libido is not going then yah, id hit 1000iu EOD and continue with the serms for another month.


----------



## Eggo26

this was the cycle:

test prop 1-3 75mg EOD

test en 1-9 250mg twice a week (500mg total)

test prop 9-13 100mg EOD

Hgc 250iu 1-13 twice a week

hgc 2000iu after my last shot of prop

Proviron 6-13 50mg ED

My libido is definitely not going but today is the 11th day of pct i don't know if i have to wait more.....


----------



## petes

Hi, this all seems to make perfect sense at last! I've been a AAS user for some years and always struggled to do some kind of pct. In all fairness it seems as though fairly unsuccessfully!

I shut down very hard, even 4 weeks of 450mg test prop hammers me. Anything above 500mg/wk and I feel like c**p!

Reading this has come just at the right time!

I'm currently doing 250 of omnadren every ten days as an experiment to see how a low dose feels and if I can cut a bit too. been on about six weeks feeling bloody great, even getting good results lifting more, body fat going. Want to stay on another month. Nuts have gone! well one of them is like a peanut!

I'm dreading the thought of coming off and loosing sex drive and feeling low. Will I get this with this protocol?

Also been struggling to get HCG for ages. My contact has now got some coming but I think it is going to be packs of 3 1500iu's. Reading the article and looking at my nads, I think I'll need the full 2500iu's at least! How can I use my 1500's to best effect?

Cheers Pete.


----------



## hackskii

Pete, I bet money to bring your balls back you will need about 20,000iu of HCG.

I personally would take an AI with your omne, and also shoot some HCG in there during this time.

Then wait about 2 weeks continuely taking the HCG while the omni clears, then some HCG at the start of the PCT, then clomid and nolva.

You will be fine, but those nuts the size of peas, well that is gonna be a problem, you may need even more HCG, perhaps even HMG.


----------



## petes

hackskii said:


> Pete, I bet money to bring your balls back you will need about 20,000iu of HCG.
> 
> I personally would take an AI with your omne, and also shoot some HCG in there during this time.
> 
> Then wait about 2 weeks continuely taking the HCG while the omni clears, then some HCG at the start of the PCT, then clomid and nolva.
> 
> You will be fine, but those nuts the size of peas, well that is gonna be a problem, you may need even more HCG, perhaps even HMG.


Thanks for the reply there, realy appreciate it mate. Went to see a endocrinologist last week and he dismissed me as some sort of ar**ole told me very arrogantly to stop dead with the gear and come back in 6 months and he may be able to help! I got every respect for the medical profession but this guy needs a lesson in people skills.

Rant over! Would you say I use my 1500iu eod until my knackers start to re appear? Or try and get some 5000iu amps (may be hard for me to get) and split them and shoot that eod?

Or may be try 1500iu eod for a few shots then go to shoot every day if that doesn't fire them up. Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated. Cheers, Pete


----------



## hackskii

No, low dose will provide you with what you are looking for.

Keeping estrogen at bay and along with the HCG will provide you with what you are looking for.

PM me with your details and I will give you a plan.

Or post here.


----------



## Guest

The hcg at a high dose is great i am on day 10 of the 15 day protocol and feeling great, nuts came back great!


----------



## Cowsfortea

Con said:


> The hcg at a high dose is great i am on day 10 of the 15 day protocol and feeling great, nuts came back great!


Me too, coming to the end of this pct, and this protocol has definately been the most successful


----------



## petes

hackskii said:


> No, low dose will provide you with what you are looking for.
> 
> Keeping estrogen at bay and along with the HCG will provide you with what you are looking for.
> 
> PM me with your details and I will give you a plan.
> 
> Or post here.


Hi Scott,

can't seem to be able to email or PM you, may be my incopetance!

I'm currently running 1x250mg omnadren every 10 days been on for six weeks, wasn't fully recovered from my last cycle, all be it a short one. so I guess Ive been suppressed for about 3 months in total, not a huge length of time and very low amounts of gear. But nuts have gone.

I am using novedex xt as an AI e3d (can't get pukka AI from my supplier)

and 10mg of tamoxifen eod.

The cycle has done what I wanted, strength good, training great, feeling great! Shredded fair bit of bf. Best shape Ive ever been in tbh.

Ive got 2 shots of Omna left. Should have my HCG on thursday night and clomid and tamox I got on hand.

My supplier says the hcg is 2500iu a shot and in boxes of 3? That doesnt sound right to me so I'm taking it they'll be 1500iu in 3s.

Should I stay on and use the last two shots or do you think that'll create me more problems? Either way advice as to PCT and sorting the shrunken nuts would be great!

Cheers, Pete.


----------



## jassdhali

Im on TRT - and finally managed to get doc to refer me to an endo as I would like to know what exactly isnt functioning as it should. I remember a while back seeing a post on the basic blood tests for determining primary/secondary gonadtropin. Could anyone point me in the right direction. THanks


----------



## hackskii

petes, HCG will fix those nuts, but id like to know for sure what it is you are going to take.

Depending on the HCG, it comes in varying iu's, amps and multiuse vials too.


----------



## petes

Ok yeah, my mistake, it's just pregnyl then in 1500iu and 5000iu.

Will hopefully have it thurs eve. I will post up the dosage then.

Cheers, Pete


----------



## petes

hackskii said:


> petes, HCG will fix those nuts, but id like to know for sure what it is you are going to take.
> 
> Depending on the HCG, it comes in varying iu's, amps and multiuse vials too.


Ok I got 3 boxes of 3x2500iu amps of HCG. The powder in the powder amps has is all clumped together to form like a sort of pellet in the amp? is that right? they are all the same. It is spanish stuff Lepori. Seen some pics on the net and they look the same.

just had what will most likely be my last omna shot tonight. Where would you say I go from here? when should I start my HCG and what dose would you say? Cheers, Pete


----------



## hackskii

Pellet/wafer is totally normal and if it was any other way I would be suspect...

Once the clearance time of the gear has cleared then you can start PCT.

HCG can be used now if you like @ doses from 500iu to 1000iu EOD leading up to the PCT.

But, I would suggest you use either nolva or an AI during this time.

Keeping estrogen in check is a good idea here.


----------



## petes

hackskii said:


> Pellet/wafer is totally normal and if it was any other way I would be suspect...
> 
> Once the clearance time of the gear has cleared then you can start PCT.
> 
> HCG can be used now if you like @ doses from 500iu to 1000iu EOD leading up to the PCT.
> 
> But, I would suggest you use either nolva or an AI during this time.
> 
> Keeping estrogen in check is a good idea here.


Hi Scott,

running 1250iu eod (half an amp) up to my pct. Had my second shot yesterday, not a lot happening as far as I'm aware. How long is it before you usually notice a difference in yr nuts?! should I try the full 2500iu dose?

cheers, Pete


----------



## Andy Dee

ths is a great read hacksii as i am planning on running a 6 month cycle or just coming off when the games stop, i really need to read up and this and get a good understanding of it.


----------



## hackskii

petes said:


> Hi Scott,
> 
> running 1250iu eod (half an amp) up to my pct. Had my second shot yesterday, not a lot happening as far as I'm aware. How long is it before you usually notice a difference in yr nuts?! should I try the full 2500iu dose?
> 
> cheers, Pete


What HCG do you have.

I know pregnyl is the popular one in the UK, it comes in 1500iu, and 5000iu preperations.

Novarel comes in 10,000iu and the chineese stuff that I like the best comes in 2,000iu.

I have not heard of 2500 amps myself, but perhaps there are some out there.

What brand is it?


----------



## testosterone1

Fantastic post Hackskii mate I've made that a sticky and will be stickin to it for my next PCT! Thanks bro..Reps added


----------



## petes

hackskii said:


> What HCG do you have.
> 
> I know pregnyl is the popular one in the UK, it comes in 1500iu, and 5000iu preperations.
> 
> Novarel comes in 10,000iu and the chineese stuff that I like the best comes in 2,000iu.
> 
> I have not heard of 2500 amps myself, but perhaps there are some out there.
> 
> What brand is it?


Hi Scott, it's Spanish stuff called Lepori it comes in boxes of 3 doses of 2500iu checked it on the net and it looks ok.


----------



## hackskii

If you are not getting a responce then yes up the dose.

I have had bad HCG before, you can test it with a pregnancy test kit.

If it is positive you have the real deal.

Pregnant women produce about a million iu's of HCG every day...wow


----------



## Guest

Yep this method is great i am on day 3 of the clomid treatment now, the 15 days of hcg and hmg went by with out a bother. My weight keeps going up which is the opposite of a normal pct LOL.


----------



## petes

hackskii said:


> If you are not getting a responce then yes up the dose.
> 
> I have had bad HCG before, you can test it with a pregnancy test kit.
> 
> If it is positive you have the real deal.
> 
> Pregnant women produce about a million iu's of HCG every day...wow


Scott, well I just tested my "hcg" with a pregnancy testing kit. Did two tests, both came up negative! Oh dear! looks like I'll have to stay on a bit longer till I can get some more from another source.

Just wondering, is there any chance I could be getting a false negative due to the high concentration of supposed hcg that I am squirting on the tester?

Cheers, Pete


----------



## hackskii

Well, I hate to use a tester myself because you have to kind of saturate the medium some but in the end I have had bad HCG and I totally think it was due to heat.

But, I have only got one bad reading on one batch I bought from Mexico.

If the test showed that the medium turned color to suggest it was negative then chances are it is no good.

But, if you used alot of solvent and not alot of HCG powder then perhaps it was not hot enough to show positive.

Or, it is fake.

I cant say what to do but you will need some more.

Sucks as I did the same, I kept jabbing away and the nuts did nothing.

Sadly the gear was out of my system and the HCG wasnt doing anything.

When that stuff is good, man it works awesome.

I find the first few times work by far the best for some strange reason.

Clomid right now would not be a bad idea to be on for the moment.

Get some pregnyl, even though some of the stuff I bought that was bad, I do feel it was due to heat.

Other than that it isnt faked.


----------



## hackskii

I answered this on another thread.


----------



## petes

hackskii said:


> Well, I hate to use a tester myself because you have to kind of saturate the medium some but in the end I have had bad HCG and I totally think it was due to heat.
> 
> But, I have only got one bad reading on one batch I bought from Mexico.
> 
> If the test showed that the medium turned color to suggest it was negative then chances are it is no good.
> 
> But, if you used alot of solvent and not alot of HCG powder then perhaps it was not hot enough to show positive.
> 
> Or, it is fake.
> 
> I cant say what to do but you will need some more.
> 
> Sucks as I did the same, I kept jabbing away and the nuts did nothing.
> 
> Sadly the gear was out of my system and the HCG wasnt doing anything.
> 
> When that stuff is good, man it works awesome.
> 
> I find the first few times work by far the best for some strange reason.
> 
> Clomid right now would not be a bad idea to be on for the moment.
> 
> Get some pregnyl, even though some of the stuff I bought that was bad, I do feel it was due to heat.
> 
> Other than that it isnt faked.


Hi Scott,

Got some pregnyl 5000iu hcg. tested it with pregnancy tester result was positive, but seemed somewhat weak a result. I mixed as normal preparation and wasted a shot on the test!. Any how just wondered, in your opinion the best time to start the hcg, clomid, tamoxifene? I have 4x 5000iu amps of hcg. I had my last shot of omnadren Wednesday just gone. Cheers Pete


----------



## hackskii

petes said:


> Hi Scott,
> 
> Got some pregnyl 5000iu hcg. tested it with pregnancy tester result was positive, but seemed somewhat weak a result. I mixed as normal preparation and wasted a shot on the test!. Any how just wondered, in your opinion the best time to start the hcg, clomid, tamoxifene? I have 4x 5000iu amps of hcg. I had my last shot of omnadren Wednesday just gone. Cheers Pete


How much omna dud you shoot?

How long was your cycle and what were all the compounds?


----------



## petes

hackskii said:


> How much omna dud you shoot?
> 
> How long was your cycle and what were all the compounds?


Very light 250 omnadren every 10 days time on about 12 weeks. Purely a cut and a bit of a pep to training. No other compounds used except 10mg nolva per day for the last 3 weeks. Not really wanting to come off as I feel great, but I am shut down. And worried I'm getting too fond of it! My one ball is like a pea! oddly the other has only shrunk about a third off normal.


----------



## hackskii

Well, that sucks, pea's for nuts is not a good thing.

Mine atrophy bad but never that bad.

You will probably need more than that 4500iu HCG you have left.

If you want to keep the HCG for any length of time, I would suggest you mix that with back water if you are going to shoot.

I dont see how you can be so surpressed with that amount of gear for that amount of time.

but if you got testicular atrophy, then I would suggest you need HCG, either now, or during PCT, or a combination of both.


----------



## Guest

Hi Scott.

I did the 15 days of hcg and hmg along with toremefine (slightly altered nolva that is supposedly superior) then i started 100mg clomid and 60mg torem every day i am now on day 32 of this. The protocal called for only 30 days i know but my nuts are still not as fully as they should be and sex drive is crap. I ran proviron for about a week at 50mg and that helped a lot but i thought it may slow down recovery so i dropped it.

Do you think its a good idea to run the clomid and torem for a full 8 weeks as i once saw a study on this working very well. Or should i use hcg and/or hmg again? Or should i drop the pct meds now and simply hope for the best???

Thanks man....


----------



## 3752

Proviron won't hinder recovery Con has it has no effect on the HPTA


----------



## hackskii

Well Con, if you had a snapshot of bloods to see the numbers it would be easy to suggest the best path.

But, the fullness in the nuts wont come back all that soon, I still notice some atrophy but I am not concerned as I feel totally fine and libido is normal.

I think if you can get erections but dont think about sex as much as you did normal, then you may just need some clomid and run that with the tore for a bit longer.

If libido is a problem, no morning wood, you just dont feel right, then yes you can do another blast of the HCG/HMG.

I have ran 2 PCT before because I tested low the first time (I didnt use enough HCG).


----------



## Guest

Pscarb said:


> Proviron won't hinder recovery Con has it has no effect on the HPTA


Nice one thanks Paul. I was not completely sure if it could hold back my recovery but with this info i will carry on with it because it made me feel a lot better.



hackskii said:


> Well Con, if you had a snapshot of bloods to see the numbers it would be easy to suggest the best path.
> 
> But, the fullness in the nuts wont come back all that soon, I still notice some atrophy but I am not concerned as I feel totally fine and libido is normal.
> 
> I think if you can get erections but dont think about sex as much as you did normal, then you may just need some clomid and run that with the tore for a bit longer.
> 
> If libido is a problem, no morning wood, you just dont feel right, then yes you can do another blast of the HCG/HMG.
> 
> I have ran 2 PCT before because I tested low the first time (I didnt use enough HCG).


No i still can get it up and i do get morning wood, just erections are weaker and my libido is low.

By the sounds of things i am on the right path thanks guys


----------



## hackskii

Might want to do a short course of clomid and tore then.


----------



## Peter80

Hackskii,

I have read the comment about crashing after a long time being on even if your T levels are within range, this due to your body being used to high androgen levels for a long time.

For my self it has been 10 months since my last jab and i still not feel completly there best to describe is missing something. I am starting to think it has to do whit what is written down above. Is there anything you can do about this and how long does this feeling last? I am pretty sure my levels are within range. (they were 5 months ago although low normal range).

Thanks man.


----------



## hackskii

Peter it would be a guess without blood work.

It can take up to a year to recover with no intervention.

Get some blood, then we can have something we can put our teeth into.


----------



## Guest

hackskii said:


> Peter it would be a guess without blood work.
> 
> It can take up to a year to recover with no intervention.
> 
> Get some blood, then we can have something we can put our teeth into.


You dont think i could have desensitized my self to the hcg do you Scott when i only used torem not nolva. Its scaring the life out of me because if that happens there is no going back is there:confused1:

I think you were right about the hcg being bad as i have 5000iu and 2000iu amps. The 2000iu increases sex drive and makes my nipples puffy while the 5000iu amps did nothing......... I am not using the 2000iu amps.


----------



## hackskii

Is it the 2000iu multiuse vials chineese?

If so that stuff is proper strong, actually one of my favorites, then novarel, then APP, then pregnyl.

I have had two batches of bad pregnyl, one 5000 and the other 1500, I can only assume heat.

I always use bac water so that isnt it.

Here is the link on I believe it is the docs protocol, although there is no refrence to his name:

http://www.basskilleronline.com/hpta_reversal.html

Here is something interesting too (copy and paste):

One recent case report involved the reversal of a hypogonadal state in a man who'd previously used nandrolone decanoate, stanozolol, and methenolone for several months. The man complained of common hypogonadal symptoms ( i.e., loss of libido, fatigue, depression, etc.) and upon investigation his total and free Testosterone levels were 71 ng/dl and 29 pg/ml respectively. (The reference ranges were 260-1000 ng/dl and 34-194 pg/ml, by the way.)

He was then given 100 mg of clomiphene for 5 days and reevaluated 2 weeks later. He reported an improvement in mood, energy, and libido and his total Testosterone was 828 ng/dl. However, after a follow up 2 months later, his symptoms had returned and his total Testosterone concentration was 301 ng/dl. In other words, he suffered a relapse.

They then gave the man 100 mg per day for 2 months and then reevaluated his blood work. They found his total Testosterone was 705 ng/dl and no relapse occurred in subsequent blood work. A similar case reported restoration of the HPTA using the same dosage of clomiphene over a 5 month period.

I cant find that study anywhere but it is out there somewhere, I remember reading it with nolva.

I have not seen anything on tore.

I dont think it is perminant, or at least I have not seen it been said before.


----------



## nitrogen

hackskii said:


> I talked to the doc today on the phone and he answered many questions for me in regards to recovery of the HPTA.
> 
> For those of you who don't know what that is it is "Hypothalamus Pituitary Testicular Axis"
> 
> After administration of AAS, you have shutdown of the HPTA. Depending on the meds taken shutdown can be severe and much does depend on the person as well.
> 
> This is the protocol the doc said he used in literally thousands of users with suppressed HPTA.
> 
> First thing, the 500iu a day was not enough to make the testicles do their job, he suggested this was just a waste of time and money.
> 
> He suggests 8 shots of HCG @ 2500iu EOD.
> 
> With this you take 20 mg of nolvadex for 45 days.
> 
> Clomid is also taken but twice a day @ 50mg each dose 12 hours apart.
> 
> .


Would this protocol be recommended/effective on an individual that has been off gear 10,5 weeks? or is a course of testosterone needed pre-protocol ?


----------



## hackskii

Well, I am a firm believer in using HCG during the cycle, this protocol is mostly for the guy that has been on gear for a while and is going off gear.

This protocol would start around the time the gear clears and is just above base values, then this PCT would be started.


----------



## Peter80

hackskii said:


> Peter it would be a guess without blood work.
> 
> It can take up to a year to recover with no intervention.
> 
> Get some blood, then we can have something we can put our teeth into.


Thanks Scott. Wil go for a blood test beginning of september, thats exactly 6 months after my last test.

Question, ever heard of guys who were way in there recovery al going ok but had a sudden set back in recovering T levels? aka levels dropping again.


----------



## hackskii

Peter80 said:


> Thanks Scott. Wil go for a blood test beginning of september, thats exactly 6 months after my last test.
> 
> Question, ever heard of guys who were way in there recovery al going ok but had a sudden set back in recovering T levels? aka levels dropping again.


Actually yes, happened to me and I ran another PCT.

I think if you do slip back then you can run the clomid @ 50mg ED and you will fair well.

I have an article somewhere on the slipping thing by a doc, I was reading that yesterday.


----------



## Peter80

Ok ,Scott. I was thinking i had this happening to me the last couple off days. Could be totally in my head though and will need a test to confirm.


----------



## nitrogen

thanks for reply hackskii, what if i am off for 12 weeks now, done my hcg while on gear and my pct 2-3 weeks later, and my levels are not back to normal. would this protocol be effective?


----------



## hackskii

nitrogen said:


> thanks for reply hackskii, what if i am off for 12 weeks now, done my hcg while on gear and my pct 2-3 weeks later, and my levels are not back to normal. would this protocol be effective?


Overkill actually, once the stimulation of the nuts gets there it would only require a little bit of stimulation.

Now if you took a test to test your testosterone and it was tanked to that of a girl, then yes one could use this protocol.


----------



## nitrogen

thank you mate, will look into it


----------



## Guest

Just wanted to say thank you Scott. I re did the hcg and hmg then went on clomid and nolva again. I will finish up the clomid and nolva in one week. I feel great now. More wood than i was having on cycle (in the last few months of the cycle). My weight is going up not down. Strength is very high. Not depressed at all. The only negative is i have the obvious "off gear" look ie a bit softer and not as round muscles but this is to be expected.

Thanks again this is a superb protocal:thumbup1:


----------



## hackskii

No problems mate, I told you not to worry......

I am doing some reading up on pregnenolone, I am wondering if it would be of benefits during or after PCT.

This gave me the idea taken from Swale (HCG):

The P450 Side Chain Cleavage enzyme, which converts CHOL into *pregnenolone* at the initiation of all three metabolic pathways CHOL serves as precursor (the sex hormones, glucocorticoids and mineralcorticoids), is actively stimulated, or depressed, by LH concentrations. It is intuitively consistent that during conditions of lowered testosterone levels, commensurate increases in LH production would serve to stimulate this conversion from CHOL into these pathways, thereby feeding more raw material for increased hormone production. And vice versa. Thus the addition of HCG (which also stimulates the P450scc enzyme) helps restore a more natural balance of the hormones within this pathway in patients who are entirely, or even partially, HPTA-suppressed.

I was thinking this because pregnenolone is helpful for mood and also can convert into other hormones including testosterone.

SNIP:

Benefits of pregnenolone

Some people find pregnenolone improves energy, vision, memory, clarity of thinking, wellbeing, and often sexual enjoyment or libido. Pregnenolone may be considered a good brain enhancer in those who are deficient. Studies in rodents show pregnenolone to be one of the most effective and powerful memory boosters. Pregnenolone may increase levels of acetylcholine in the hippocampus and other memory regions in the brain. Some women report lessening of hot flashes or premenstrual symptoms.

Pregnenolone converts into DHEA, which in turn converts into testosterone and possibly on to DHT. Pregnenolone can also be converted into progesterone.

I may give it a shot as it is an over the counter cream here in the states.


----------



## stevebaker

Con said:


> Just wanted to say thank you Scott. I re did the hcg and hmg then went on clomid and nolva again. I will finish up the clomid and nolva in one week. I feel great now. More wood than i was having on cycle (in the last few months of the cycle). My weight is going up not down. Strength is very high. Not depressed at all. The only negative is i have the obvious "off gear" look ie a bit softer and not as round muscles but this is to be expected.
> 
> Thanks again this is a superb protocal:thumbup1:


Can you list dosages etc of what you used please con

thanks mate


----------



## G.H.O.S.T

I was wondering what would be the ideal protocal if i was on a 8 week cycle of oral turinabol at a dose of 60mg each day (split.) I know ill need clomiphene/nolvadex and hcg. However i know taking hcg during a cycle keeping natural testosterone production is better than shutting it down andthen re introudcing it. it would be ideal if someone could tell me ideal doses of nolvadex and clom and wen i should start taking them, also the doses of hcg that i should be taking during my cycle if im using 60mg or oral turinabol.

Thanks


----------



## hackskii

That cycle should not be too supressive.

Something simple, maybe between 21 days and 30 days.

Might even get along with 100mg clomid week 1 then 50mg for 2 more weeks, and 20mg of nolva for 30 days.

Depends alot on how bad you shut down too.


----------



## Guest

stevebaker said:


> Can you list dosages etc of what you used please con
> 
> thanks mate


Sure but it is a bit of a mess even though it did the job

8 shots of 2500iu hcg every other day this took 15 days in total during this time i shot a total of two amps of hmg split over 4 days on non hcg days i also took 60mg torem during this time (i would take nolva instead as torem is still new and who knows how effective it is. Then i did 33 days of 100mg clomid 60mg torem. Was not feeling the best so i did a total of 4 shots of hcg 2000iu with 1 amp of hmg on alternating days along with 20mg nolva this took 8 days in total then i did 5 days of 100mg clomid 20mg nolva. On day 6 now and i am starting to get the clomid blues again so i am going to stop now.

Now my nuts are still a tad small (like a large grape) and sex drive is still relatively low, however, i am strong and my muscles are looking fuller again so i think i am on the road to recovery!


----------



## pecman

Hi Scott,

This sounds like a good thing for me to try after my current course.

I'm doing

500mg sus

250mg tren

Now i didn't recover at all from my last pct so i wan't to get this one spot on as i felt like shat for 8 months, No morning wood etc fat deposits depression, You get the idea..

Do you think this would work for me as i have been shut down for a very very long time..

Any thoughts would be great :thumb:

Would nolva keep gyno sides at bay during PCT as i have heard many guys getting it of HCG.

Thanks Scott


----------



## stevebaker

Con said:


> Sure but it is a bit of a mess even though it did the job
> 
> 8 shots of 2500iu hcg every other day this took 15 days in total during this time i shot a total of two amps of hmg split over 4 days on non hcg days i also took 60mg torem during this time (i would take nolva instead as torem is still new and who knows how effective it is. Then i did 33 days of 100mg clomid 60mg torem. Was not feeling the best so i did a total of 4 shots of hcg 2000iu with 1 amp of hmg on alternating days along with 20mg nolva this took 8 days in total then i did 5 days of 100mg clomid 20mg nolva. On day 6 now and i am starting to get the clomid blues again so i am going to stop now.
> 
> Now my nuts are still a tad small (like a large grape) and sex drive is still relatively low, however, i am strong and my muscles are looking fuller again so i think i am on the road to recovery!


Thanks Con, what strength was the Hmg 75iu ?


----------



## G.H.O.S.T

hackskii said:


> That cycle should not be too supressive.
> 
> Something simple, maybe between 21 days and 30 days.
> 
> Might even get along with 100mg clomid week 1 then 50mg for 2 more weeks, and 20mg of nolva for 30 days.
> 
> Depends alot on how bad you shut down too.


So you think i wont need any hcg? and would i be taking the nolva from day 1 with clomid?

thanks


----------



## Guest

stevebaker said:


> Thanks Con, what strength was the Hmg 75iu ?


Yes Steve, 75iu per amp.

Like i said i don't feel normal as such but my muscles have responded in a favorable way again the rest will just take time


----------



## hilly

do you think using nolva instead of torem has made a bit of a difference con?


----------



## Guest

hilly2008 said:


> do you think using nolva instead of torem has made a bit of a difference con?


Not in the slightest to be honest.

All i have learned from this pct is i hate clomid as it messes me up. :cursing:


----------



## hilly

haha clomid seems to be one of those drugs were it kills some people and doesnt bother others. i find even on 100mg per day for 20 or so days it doesnt effect me to bad or maybe im just always a little moody and hormonal lol.


----------



## Guest

hilly2008 said:


> haha clomid seems to be one of those drugs were it kills some people and doesnt bother others. i find even on 100mg per day for 20 or so days it doesnt effect me to bad or maybe im just always a little moody and hormonal lol.


The first 20 days went ok it was after then that it was all down hill!


----------



## YoungGun

Think i'm one of the lucky ones. I ran 100mg Clomid for 28 days and had litterally no sides.

This is the same for most drugs with me, ovbiously BP and things will be affected but my mood is usually stable all the time.

Apart from iget depressed every now and then,on and off.


----------



## Dezw

I'm in first week of PCT, consisting of both nolva and clomid, at 40mg ed and 100mg ed respectively for the first week, then half the stated dose for a further 3 weeks.

And I can say one thing, I am a moody cow lol.


----------



## hackskii

pecman said:


> Hi Scott,
> 
> This sounds like a good thing for me to try after my current course.
> 
> I'm doing
> 
> 500mg sus
> 
> 250mg tren
> 
> Now i didn't recover at all from my last pct so i wan't to get this one spot on as i felt like shat for 8 months, No morning wood etc fat deposits depression, You get the idea..
> 
> Do you think this would work for me as i have been shut down for a very very long time..
> 
> Any thoughts would be great :thumb:
> 
> Would nolva keep gyno sides at bay during PCT as i have heard many guys getting it of HCG.
> 
> Thanks Scott


Yes, but honestly I would start some HCG now so the nuts can respond some, once the become more sensitive then less doses of HCG can be used.

No doubt though you are probably shut down pretty hard already if 8 months you went back on and were shut down there.

The idea here is to get the nuts rolling along, and the other obsticle would be to avoid desentization issues.

One reason I like running an AI during aromitizable steroids is estrogen is terribly supressive.

If the nuts respond to HCG, then you have the problem almost licked.

It is the nuts that are the single biggest factor in recovering or not recovering.

The size of the nuts are no indication of recovery of testosterone levels as the leydig cells only are about 1/10th the mass of the nuts, so in theory, it would be nice to have some big meat bags but, not necessary for testosterone production.

Bragging rights yah, test production no. :lol:

The size will come later.

To answer your question though, it is a fine line of using too much HCG and risk the damage of the leydig cells and the other factor of not getting testicular function.

So, kindof without blood work to varify your nuts are working, then it is hard to say when to stop the HCG.

In the past I have had to do something similar to Con and run another PCT, but in the end I had blood to varify I was about there, after the second PCT.

The last recovery I did was so nice that I actually dont want to do gear anymore.

But now I am testing out that test gel and will run something, not sure yet, I will play it by ear.

I can tell when my own T levels are up to speed.



G.H.O.S.T said:


> So you think i wont need any hcg? and would i be taking the nolva from day 1 with clomid?
> 
> thanks


I cant remember all the diffrent peoples cycles at the top of my head, if you like you can send me a PM with all things you took and the amounts along with time on and we can come up with something.

No such thing as a generic cookie cutter approach to PCT, many of them will be diffrent or modified.

Clomid only affects me about 3 to 4 weeks into it, then it is the vision problems, but that goes away after discontinuence.


----------



## Guest

I always hear "useless with out pics" so here is one of me taken yesterday.

As you can see i am a bit smaller, fatter and flatter but its not too bad i don't think.....225-30lb depending on carb intake at 5ft8.

P.S. i still can not pose for ****!


----------



## hackskii

Nice ass, I mean arms....lol


----------



## G.H.O.S.T

Hey hack skii, im new to this forum and im not sure how to PM. my cycle is a oral turinabol cycle (prochem) of 50mg-60mg each day (split) for 8 weeks....

thanks


----------



## pecman

hackskii said:


> Yes, but honestly I would start some HCG now so the nuts can respond some, once the become more sensitive then less doses of HCG can be used.
> 
> No doubt though you are probably shut down pretty hard already if 8 months you went back on and were shut down there.
> 
> The idea here is to get the nuts rolling along, and the other obsticle would be to avoid desentization issues.
> 
> One reason I like running an AI during aromitizable steroids is estrogen is terribly supressive.
> 
> If the nuts respond to HCG, then you have the problem almost licked.
> 
> It is the nuts that are the single biggest factor in recovering or not recovering.
> 
> The size of the nuts are no indication of recovery of testosterone levels as the leydig cells only are about 1/10th the mass of the nuts, so in theory, it would be nice to have some big meat bags but, not necessary for testosterone production.
> 
> Bragging rights yah, test production no. :lol:
> 
> The size will come later.
> 
> To answer your question though, it is a fine line of using too much HCG and risk the damage of the leydig cells and the other factor of not getting testicular function.
> 
> So, kindof without blood work to varify your nuts are working, then it is hard to say when to stop the HCG.
> 
> In the past I have had to do something similar to Con and run another PCT, but in the end I had blood to varify I was about there, after the second PCT.
> 
> The last recovery I did was so nice that I actually dont want to do gear anymore.
> 
> But now I am testing out that test gel and will run something, not sure yet, I will play it by ear.
> 
> I can tell when my own T levels are up to speed.
> 
> I cant remember all the diffrent peoples cycles at the top of my head, if you like you can send me a PM with all things you took and the amounts along with time on and we can come up with something.
> 
> No such thing as a generic cookie cutter approach to PCT, many of them will be diffrent or modified.
> 
> Clomid only affects me about 3 to 4 weeks into it, then it is the vision problems, but that goes away after discontinuence.


Thanks for the reply Scott,

My nuts never really get that small.They are still about the normal size.

I am running an AI with this course (ADEX) and it is going very well,No gyno symptoms at all :thumb: Happy days!!

I have got a good 9 weeks left of this course. I'm going to drop the Tren a couple of weeks out and taper down the test then start PCT.

So by your comments,this may be to aggresive a PCT for me For damaging the leydig cells?

do you also think i maybe suffering from Adrenal burnout being shut down that long?

Lee


----------



## hackskii

Using nolva will protect the nuts when using HCG.

Adrenal burnout is very hard to diagnose and something like a cortisol test taken many times a day would be able to diagnose.

DHEA is awesome to take and if you dont take it then you probably should.

Just a tab a day would be very helpful.

Too much can elivate estrogen.

I have a list of herbs that curb that if you like to see it.


----------



## pecman

hackskii said:


> Using nolva will protect the nuts when using HCG.
> 
> Adrenal burnout is very hard to diagnose and something like a cortisol test taken many times a day would be able to diagnose.
> 
> DHEA is awesome to take and if you dont take it then you probably should.
> 
> Just a tab a day would be very helpful.
> 
> Too much can elivate estrogen.
> 
> I have a list of herbs that curb that if you like to see it.


Yes please mate :thumbup1:

Thanks again mate:thumb: love ya Scott :bounce:


----------



## hackskii

Here you go, taken from a guy that suffered for years with excess cortisol, these are his words not mine:

First Level (reported most strongest):

Phosphatidylserine - aka PS (*)

Holy Basil Extract

Magnolia Bark Extract (main ingredient in Relora)

Epimedium Extract

Rhodiola Rosea Extract

Ashwagandha Extract

Second Level (Good but not quite as strong - supposedly):

Gerovital-H3

Theanine

Melatonin

Gingko Biloba

Beta-sitosterol

Passionflower

Siberian ginseng (Caution - In some people will actually increase cortisol)

Also it is reported that 2 grams of glutamine daily along with 500 mg of NAC daily supposedly brings down cortisol levels rapidly.

(*) Note that ALL the tests showing cortisol-lowering effects of PS have been performed using the PS that has been derived from tissue of bovine brain (cow's brain). Due to "mad cow scares", no commercial mfg will market PS from this source - plus it would be extremely expensive. The marketed PS is made from synthesized soy. No controlled tests have been done that have shown that this form of PS has any effect on lowering cortisol. I tried PS at the dose of 400 mg daily for three months and found NO effect on lowering my cortisol.


----------



## Old but not out

Hackskii,

A fantastic post - the best I have read on the net with reagard to this subject. A couple of questions.

I have never had any problems with recovery until this year - after a 6 week cycle (300mg prop a week and 50mg winstrol a day), I am struggling. I did a PCT after which was only Nolv and clomid for 2 weeks. No joy. No atrophy of testicles at all during cycle or after but I still failed to recover.

I have lost no mass, gained no fat, lost no strength. Ability to get an erection is there with internet porn. No spontaneous erections, sometimes morning wood (not that strong), sometimes not. Eight weeks have passed since cycle ended ( 6 weeks since PCT).

Can I try this PCT? If not I am going to end up jumping back on the testo which I know is not good. I have decided that if I can get myself back thats it for me no more gear.

What is the effect of this PCT without the nolva - is it still likely to be a success?

Thanks fo the thread, thanks for any help you can offer


----------



## hackskii

I dont think you would need any HCG to be honest.

If you can get an erection and perform yet morning wood is gone then just clomid may be the way fwd.

Here is some stuff on clomid from Hilly, he was so kind to give me this info, I have always known Clomid to work the best of any SERM I have used, here is some more info on that.

*Here's a study showing low-dose Clomid therapy (25mg ED) boosts testosterone by 250% in 4-6 weeks:*

Clomiphene citrate effects on testosterone/estrogen ratio in male hypogonadism, Shabsigh A, Kang Y, Shabsign R, Gonzalez M, Liberson G, Fisch H, Goluboff E. Department of Urology, NY Presbyterian Medical Center, New York, NY, USA. J Sex Med. 2005 Sep;2(5):716-21.

AIM: Symptomatic late-onset hypogonadism is associated not only with a decline in serum testosterone, but also with a rise in serum estradiol. These endocrine changes negatively affect libido, sexual function, mood, behavior, lean body mass, and bone density. Currently, the most common treatment is exogenous testosterone therapy. This treatment can be associated with skin irritation, gynecomastia, nipple tenderness, testicular atrophy, and decline in sperm counts. In this study we investigated the efficacy of clomiphene citrate in the treatment of hypogonadism with the objectives of raising endogenous serum testosterone (T) and improving the testosterone/estrogen (T/E) ratio. METHODS: Our cohort consisted of 36 Caucasian men with hypogonadism defined as serum testosterone level less than 300 ng/dL. Each patient was treated with a daily dose of 25 mg clomiphene citrate and followed prospectively. Analysis of baseline and follow-up serum levels of testosterone and estradiol levels were performed.

RESULTS: The mean age was 39 years, and the mean pretreatment testosterone and estrogen levels were 247.6 +/- 39.8 ng/dL and 32.3 +/- 10.9, respectively. By the first follow-up visit (4-6 weeks), the mean testosterone level rose to 610.0 +/- 178.6 ng/dL (P < 0.00001). Moreover, the T/E ratio improved from 8.7 to 14.2 (P < 0.001). There were no side effects reported by the patients.

CONCLUSIONS: Low dose clomiphene citrate is effective in elevating serum testosterone levels and improving the testosterone/estradiol ratio in men with hypogonadism.This therapy represents an alternative to testosterone therapy by stimulating the endogenous androgen production pathway.

*Study showing a hypogonadic 30-year old male, suffering permanent shutdown from steroid abuse, fully recovered natural hormone levels and HPTA function from 2 months of 100mg Clomid therapy:*

Use of clomiphene citrate to reverse premature andropause secondary to steroid abuse, Tan RS, Vasudevan D.

Department of Family and Community Medicine, University of Texas Health Sciences Center, Houston, Texas 77030, USA.

OBJECTIVE: To report a case of symptomatic hypogonadism induced by the abuse of multiple steroid preparations that was subsequently reversed by clomiphene. DESIGN: Case report. SETTING: University-affiliated andrology practice within family practice clinic. PATIENT(S): A 30-year-old male.

INTERVENTION(S): Clomiphene citrate, 100-mg challenge for 5 days, followed by treatment at same dose for 2 months.

MAIN OUTCOME MEASURE(S): Clinical symptoms, androgen decline in aging male questionnaire, total T, FSH, LH.

RESULT(S): Reversal of symptoms, normalization of T levels with LH surge, restoration of pituitary-gonadal axis.

CONCLUSION(S): Clomiphene citrate is used typically in helping to restore fertility in females. This represents the first case report of the successful use of clomiphene to restore T levels and the pituitary-gonadal axis in a male patient. The axis was previously shut off with multiple anabolic steroid abuse.

*Here's another study showing only 7 days of Clomid therapy increased total testosterone by 100% and, more importantly, free testosterone by over 300% in young men:*

The effects of aging in normal men on bioavailable testosterone and luteinizing hormone secretion: response to clomiphene citrate, J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 1987 Dec;65(6):1118-26.

Geriatric Research, Education, and Clinical Center, Veterans Administration Medical Center, Seattle, Washington.

Serum testosterone (T) levels in men decline with age while serum LH levels, as measured by RIA, increase. To assess if the decline in serum T levels in healthy aging men is paralleled by an age-related decline in the bioavailable non-sex hormone-binding globulin (SHBG)-bound fraction of T and to determine whether there are age-related changes in LH secretion or LH control of T production, we studied 29 young (aged 22-35 yr) and 26 elderly (aged 65-84 yr) healthy men. All men had single random blood samples drawn, and 14 men in each age group underwent frequent blood sampling for 24 h, both before and after 7 days of clomiphene citrate (CC) administration. Both mean 24-h serum total T levels and non-SHBG-bound T were reduced in elderly men compared to those in young men (P less than 0.05), while estradiol and SHBG levels were similar in the 2 age groups. Serum FSH determined by RIA and LH by RIA and bioassay were higher in the elderly men compared to those in young men (P less than 0.05), but the ratios of LH bioactivity to immunoreactivity and the LH pulse frequency and amplitude were similar. After CC administration, mean serum total T and non-SHBG-bound levels in young men increased by 100% and 304%, respectively, while in older men these values increased by only 32% and 8%, respectively. However, CC-stimulated LH pulse characteristics and serum levels of estradiol, SHBG, FSH, and bioactive and immunoreactive LH were similar in the 2 groups. Thus, both at baseline and after CC stimulation, elderly men had significantly lower serum total T and non-SHBG-bound (bioavailable) T levels than did young men, despite similar or increased levels of bioactive LH and similar bioactive to immunoreactive LH ratios and LH pulse characteristics. These results suggest that major age-related changes in the hypothalamic-pituitary-testicular axis occur at the level of the testes and are manifested by decreased responsiveness to bioactive LH. Administration of CC to young and elderly men resulted in similar changes in LH pulse characteristics and LH bioactivity and immunoreactivity, suggesting preserved hypothalamic-pituitary responsiveness in the elderly.


----------



## Old but not out

Thanks for the swift reply. I can get an erection but it is hard work (no pun intended) and not that strong and reliable.

I want it back asap (so does my wife ha ha).

Will clomid alone do this?

Is it likely a long process? How long would you persevere with Clomid?

The studies above (and those I have read) have varying dosages - what would you think is applicable?

I know that HCG will get my T back up - will this not help me out? Or will it cause more damage? My initial thoughts are from the literature I have read is I am not producing any T (in literature low T = no spontaneous erections but you manually achieve?). Should I not solve this first then use SERMS to get LH higher. If HCG does not damage shut down Leydig cells over the protocol why would it damage functioning Leydig cells.

Last but most critical - I am down and struggling to cope - if I did a 3 week cycle of T to get me on track and ran it with low dose HCG - then went back into PCT would I get away with it? Or if better a cycle with no HCG then the full recovery process. I don t care how or what I just want to get back to norm!!

Sorry for the questions but to solve a problem you need lots of information

Thanks


----------



## hilly

i just wanna say full credit must go to datbrue over on pro muscle. he is an immensly clever guy and he posted these articles. he belives in clomid like hacksii does which is why i forwarded them on.


----------



## hackskii

Well, within just two days after a HCG shot you will no doubt feel better.

You can do some low dose HCG, something like 1000iu EOD for maybe like 8 days, and start 20mg nolva ED for 45 days and 30 days of clomid @ 100mg ED.

Doses for clomid can be used in varying degrees, a endo PDF says that 100mg ED of clomid after 5 to 7 days doubles LH output and increases FSH by 20% to 50%.

So, yah, I do think clomid will work here, but you might not feel yourself for a couple of weeks.

I would recover before going on another cycle, chances are you wont come off once you feel better.


----------



## Old but not out

Thanks Hackskii.

I will run a clomid cycle first if no luck I will try the HCG followed by nolva and clomid. I will keep you informed with regard to the outcomes

Cheers


----------



## Old but not out

Ok I have started clomid as you suggest 95 days - I had actually started prior to posting). I can already see changes but there is variation - good day, bad day - is this normal

Thanks


----------



## saekson

#Hackskii

Hi

Im going to start my cycle of 500 mg of test enanthate e5d,

i also planned to use Arimidex throughout the cycle at about .25 or .5, well my question is should i use adex to the point of the first hcg shot,

and then continue your pct protocol as stated with clomid and nolva? and also do you think its necessary using hcg during the cycle if needed?

Thx


----------



## lfc2007

**HACKSII

Wow your knowledge on this subject is really good, unlike other forums and columns everyone seems to trust your judgements alot etc without argument.

Im currently coming to an end of a 9 week 500mg and now 10th week 750mg Sust.(last night)

What would you say would be the best protocol for PCT from now onwards?


----------



## hackskii

Did you run any HCG during that cycle?

Was the 750 shot of sust all in one go?

Did you run an AI during?

How old are you?

Do you recovery fairly easily?

Have you dont a PCT before and if so what was it?


----------



## lfc2007

hackskii said:


> Did you run any HCG during that cycle?
> 
> Was the 750 shot of sust all in one go?
> 
> Did you run an AI during?
> 
> How old are you?
> 
> Do you recovery fairly easily?
> 
> Have you dont a PCT before and if so what was it?


Hello..

Thanks for your reply

Yes it was the last of my gear so just thought throw it in was probably around 675 than 750.

I never ran an AI, or used HCG through cycle. I also havn't had any sides except slight shrinking of the nuts..

I am currently 24 and this is my first cycle mate...diet, workout in check.. etc

Now i done alot of research beforehand and that led to me to believe just use nolva 40/20/20/20 and chlomid 100/50/50/50 for for PCT ED three weeks after last jab..

Your post has opened my eyes to the whole PCT concept... very in depth and you seem to know your stuff more than anyone ive spoken too on forums..

your views would be greatly appreciated


----------



## hackskii

WEll, one shot of 750 sust will take probably a month to clear, in the mean time you can use a low dose AI while the sust clears, and run some HCG for a month and after 30 days start your clomid and nolva.

Drop the nolva to 20mg, no need for 40, unless it is like the first day or so.

The clomid probably should be run for a couple of weeks @ 100mg ED.

9 week cycles are not that supressive and you may be able to get the PCT done without the HCG but the HCG even with this short cycle would probably work better due to the stimulation to the testes while the clearance time of the gear leaves.


----------



## Flexboy23

hackskii said:


> WEll, one shot of 750 sust will take probably a month to clear, in the mean time you can use a low dose AI while the sust clears, and run some HCG for a month and after 30 days start your clomid and nolva.
> 
> Drop the nolva to 20mg, no need for 40, unless it is like the first day or so.
> 
> The clomid probably should be run for a couple of weeks @ 100mg ED.
> 
> 9 week cycles are not that supressive and you may be able to get the PCT done without the HCG but the HCG even with this short cycle would probably work better due to the stimulation to the testes *while the clearance time of the gear leaves*.


Are you suggesting that you bring in HCG early at this point, rather than waiting a good week or too after last injection and starting HCG, Clomid, & Nolva at the same time?


----------



## hackskii

Sure, why not?

Why supress the hypothalamus and pituitary while it is already supressed right now?

Makes sense to me to run that now while the gear clears and your testicles come online.

As the gear is clearing and reducing by each day your nuts will start producing, less chance of a crash actually.


----------



## hilly

yup i always use hcg during the 2 weeks clearing time for enanthate etc. then start the clom/nolva


----------



## lfc2007

hackskii said:


> WEll, one shot of 750 sust will take probably a month to clear, in the mean time you can use a low dose AI while the sust clears, and run some HCG for a month and after 30 days start your clomid and nolva.
> 
> Drop the nolva to 20mg, no need for 40, unless it is like the first day or so.
> 
> The clomid probably should be run for a couple of weeks @ 100mg ED.
> 
> 9 week cycles are not that supressive and you may be able to get the PCT done without the HCG but the HCG even with this short cycle would probably work better due to the stimulation to the testes while the clearance time of the gear leaves.


OK well, i took the 750 on Monday week nine, then shot a 500 Monday ( 14/09 ) So was a ten week course. Would i still need to use the above protocol?

Your suggesting not to wait for any clearance time? doesn't your guy the doctor say differently?? Also what doses of HCG would you take in my case? surely not 2500 EOD for a month??

Thanks Mate to advise.. 

What doses of HCG would you suig


----------



## hackskii

Why not use HCG while your gear is clearing?

It cant supress the pituitary any more than it already is.

If HCG is used now you can get your nuts up and running a bit faster.

I would do 500iu twice a week for now and wait till you start your PCT then you can do a couple of weeks of EOD shots of HCG at a bit bigger dose due to you having the nolva in there for protection of your nuts with the higher dose of HCG.


----------



## Old but not out

Hackskki,

I was hoping for a couple of pointers please.

I have been following the clomid protocol. I am currently tapering slowly at 25mg every other day. There have been positive changes - I have noticed that my testicles are hanging low and my scrotum is no longer tight and pulled up. (I am under the impression that this is an indicator of LH secretion?). But as of yet no real changes in sex drive and erection (I can get one but it takes a lot of work and no spontaneous erections, morning wood is there - not the best but there).

Do you feel I should

a) Continue to taper come and see what happens?

B) Increase clomid (or nolva?) and stay on for longer?

c) Start again with HCG?

Thanks for any advice you can offer it is greatly appreciated.


----------



## hackskii

What was your cycle?

How much did you use and what meds?

How long was your cycle?

When did you start PCT?

What was your PCT?


----------



## Old but not out

hackskii said:


> What was your cycle?
> 
> How much did you use and what meds?
> 
> How long was your cycle?
> 
> When did you start PCT?
> 
> What was your PCT?


2 x 3 week blocks of 300mg of prop a week (3 x 100mg)

Plus 50mg winstrol per day.

3 weeks off in between.

This ended on 12th July.

I tried a PCT of nolva 20mg/day and clomid 50mg a day for 2 weeks. I had no joy. I have tried to sit it out - mood and diposition are back to normal. Training excellent. I have lost no strength and have stayed very lean. Sex drive/erection only problems.

I restarted clomid about 2 weeks ago. Went for 5 days at 50mg a day, 5 days at 25mg a day and tapered. Initially nothing but now (as I am tapering down) I do seem to be improving. I have noticed my testes are hanging low again, this has occured only over the last 3 days or so - I believe this indicates LH secretion? (sorry to be so descriptive but this morning was the first rock hard morning wood I have had since I came off so something must be happening!!!).

As I asked do you feel that I should;

1) Continue to taper and see what happens

2) Go back on clomid (more aggresive?)

3) Go for the HCG protocol.

I have been on a number of boards and many seem to discredit the HCG route. I have no doubt that it works - it seems logical and many people have great results but I am concerned I may be on "edge of recovery" and at this point it may take me backwards?

I have done a number of cycle over the last 15 years (41 yrs old). I have not done many long cycles - mainly 4-6 weeks, with the exception of 2 long - 12 week cycles over 10 years ago. Most were oral only (probably 4 others plus this one contained injectables). I have never had a problem recovering before (despite the fact that I never ever did a PCT) - I had seamless transitions. I am begining to worry I have ****ed my HPTA up!!!

Thanks for the help. Any advice on getting back is appreciated. I reckon if I can get back to normal my AS days are over!


----------



## lfc2007

hackskii said:


> Why not use HCG while your gear is clearing?
> 
> It cant supress the pituitary any more than it already is.
> 
> If HCG is used now you can get your nuts up and running a bit faster.
> 
> I would do 500iu twice a week for now and wait till you start your PCT then you can do a couple of weeks of EOD shots of HCG at a bit bigger dose due to you having the nolva in there for protection of your nuts with the higher dose of HCG.


Ok so im really confused now haha, all the conflicting info on the internet is enough to spin my head.. i really appreciate your help on this..

Ok so i will start running HCG 500iu until its been 3 weeks after last jab ( how does that sound ) Then start PCT as normal?

What IU should i utilise for the HCG in PCT and what levels of nolva / Chlomid would you recommend using alongside and for how long..

Sorry about this, becuase its deviating from your recommended PCT im lost

Thanks again for your help


----------



## hackskii

Old but not out said:


> 2 x 3 week blocks of 300mg of prop a week (3 x 100mg)
> 
> Plus 50mg winstrol per day.
> 
> 3 weeks off in between.
> 
> This ended on 12th July.
> 
> I tried a PCT of nolva 20mg/day and clomid 50mg a day for 2 weeks. I had no joy. I have tried to sit it out - mood and diposition are back to normal. Training excellent. I have lost no strength and have stayed very lean. Sex drive/erection only problems.
> 
> I restarted clomid about 2 weeks ago. Went for 5 days at 50mg a day, 5 days at 25mg a day and tapered. Initially nothing but now (as I am tapering down) I do seem to be improving. I have noticed my testes are hanging low again, this has occured only over the last 3 days or so - I believe this indicates LH secretion? (sorry to be so descriptive but this morning was the first rock hard morning wood I have had since I came off so something must be happening!!!).
> 
> As I asked do you feel that I should;
> 
> 1) Continue to taper and see what happens
> 
> 2) Go back on clomid (more aggresive?)
> 
> 3) Go for the HCG protocol.
> 
> I have been on a number of boards and many seem to discredit the HCG route. I have no doubt that it works - it seems logical and many people have great results but I am concerned I may be on "edge of recovery" and at this point it may take me backwards?
> 
> I have done a number of cycle over the last 15 years (41 yrs old). I have not done many long cycles - mainly 4-6 weeks, with the exception of 2 long - 12 week cycles over 10 years ago. Most were oral only (probably 4 others plus this one contained injectables). I have never had a problem recovering before (despite the fact that I never ever did a PCT) - I had seamless transitions. I am begining to worry I have ****ed my HPTA up!!!
> 
> Thanks for the help. Any advice on getting back is appreciated. I reckon if I can get back to normal my AS days are over!


Nah, you are cool and dont even need HCG right now.

Remember that 100mg clomid ED after 5 to 7 days doubles LH and can increase FSH by 20% to 50%.

That is alot.

I would go the clomid route myself, your balls are being stimulated with the LH from the boost from the clomid, so if you are getting morning wood now, then no doubt you are getting close.

Our measurement in the States is like 320 to 960 and at the mid 200's I dont get morning wood.

So, you are probably in the 300 or so range maybe more, so you dont have far to go.

I would probably use 50mg ED for a while then you can taper once you feel your levels are up there again.

I would not worry, you are pretty close now.

Might just be stress making you feel that you have some ED or libido issues.

Only way to know for sure is blood.

But, hell I dont think this is going to be a problem nor perminant either.


----------



## hackskii

lfc2007 said:


> Ok so im really confused now haha, all the conflicting info on the internet is enough to spin my head.. i really appreciate your help on this..
> 
> Ok so i will start running HCG 500iu until its been 3 weeks after last jab ( how does that sound ) Then start PCT as normal?
> 
> What IU should i utilise for the HCG in PCT and what levels of nolva / Chlomid would you recommend using alongside and for how long..
> 
> Sorry about this, becuase its deviating from your recommended PCT im lost
> 
> Thanks again for your help


Sure you can run the HCG while the gear clears to prep the nuts for PCT.

You can with no problems run the HCG into PCT for a week or even two.

Then drop the HCG and continue on with clomid and nolva.

The doses would be a guess here as I am not sure how bad you shutdown or recover.

If you have done other cycles and responded well to PCT then let me know and then I can take a better stab at it, after all without blood work or any information it is mearly guess work.

I would for sure run the clomid for no less than 2 weeks from stopping the HCG in the PCT and another 2 weeks longer with the nolva.

20mg of nolva will be just fine.

Clomid may be 100mg ED to 50mg ED, depending on the sides.


----------



## Old but not out

Hackskii,

Thanks - your help is much appreciated - I will keep you informed.

Last questions - could I use nolvadex instead? Do clomid and nolva have negative impacts on libido themselves (if so I will not feel ok until I am off?)

Thanks again


----------



## hackskii

Old but not out said:


> Hackskii,
> 
> Thanks - your help is much appreciated - I will keep you informed.
> 
> Last questions - could I use nolvadex instead? Do clomid and nolva have negative impacts on libido themselves (if so I will not feel ok until I am off?)
> 
> Thanks again


Yah they do, also on mood...lol

Clomid is far superior to tamox for recovery but not gyno...lol


----------



## Old but not out

hackskii said:


> Yah they do, also on mood...lol
> 
> Clomid is far superior to tamox for recovery but not gyno...lol


Thanks for your help - much appreciated


----------



## lfc2007

hackskii said:


> Sure you can run the HCG while the gear clears to prep the nuts for PCT.
> 
> You can with no problems run the HCG into PCT for a week or even two.
> 
> Then drop the HCG and continue on with clomid and nolva.
> 
> The doses would be a guess here as I am not sure how bad you shutdown or recover.
> 
> If you have done other cycles and responded well to PCT then let me know and then I can take a better stab at it, after all without blood work or any information it is mearly guess work.
> 
> I would for sure run the clomid for no less than 2 weeks from stopping the HCG in the PCT and another 2 weeks longer with the nolva.
> 
> 20mg of nolva will be just fine.
> 
> Clomid may be 100mg ED to 50mg ED, depending on the sides.


Thanks mate,

its my first cycle, im going to start running the HCG tomorrow once ive been to get it... 500iu wice a week until its been 3 weeks after last jab then ill run the HCG at maybe 1000iu EOD for eight shots? how does that sound??

Also what do you find is the best AI?


----------



## hackskii

How long is your cycle again?

What are the compounds?

This is getting confusing putting all recovery's in one thread.

Can you make a thread and link it here for me?

I dont want to go back a bunch of pages....sorry


----------



## BillC

Hi Scott,

currently running 500ui's x2 a week as you suggested(thanks again ) in bac water. Now I know the hcg is good for up to a month in bac water, what about the bac water itself? Is that only good for a month once used?

Cheers

Bill


----------



## hackskii

BillC said:


> Hi Scott,
> 
> currently running 500ui's x2 a week as you suggested(thanks again ) in bac water. Now I know the hcg is good for up to a month in bac water, what about the bac water itself? Is that only good for a month once used?
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Bill


I leave mine in the fridge and it probably is good for a year or more.

I have B-complex and sometimes I mix it with that so each jab I get some extra stuff...lol

It has bac water in it too.


----------



## hilly

should back water be kept in the fridge scott or is it ok in the cupboard?


----------



## hackskii

I put it in the fridge but honestly I dont know why.....That is just where I keep it because I like it cold when I mix my stuff up.


----------



## petes

Hackskii, Just had bloods done after 30 days on this protocol and came back with 18.3 nm/l!

That is way better than the last test I got 4 months after my previous cycle at 13.2nm/l! I will have another test in about a month because I have stopped the clomid at 30 days and still got 15 days of Tamoxifene, so whether my levels will drop off a bit now I'm not sure but so far fantastic. Strength been there all the way through, libido been good, all round pretty damn good! Felt a bit emotionally weird for a week or so on the clomid, but this eased loads. I was on the verge of giving up using AAS altogether, but this protocol has put me back in control, roll on next cycle! Many thanks!


----------



## Old but not out

petes said:


> Hackskii, Just had bloods done after 30 days on this protocol and came back with 18.3 nm/l!
> 
> That is way better than the last test I got 4 months after my previous cycle at 13.2nm/l! I will have another test in about a month because I have stopped the clomid at 30 days and still got 15 days of Tamoxifene, so whether my levels will drop off a bit now I'm not sure but so far fantastic. Strength been there all the way through, libido been good, all round pretty damn good! Felt a bit emotionally weird for a week or so on the clomid, but this eased loads. I was on the verge of giving up using AAS altogether, but this protocol has put me back in control, roll on next cycle! Many thanks!


Mate - what was your cycle - good to hear you are doing well?


----------



## hilly

petes said:


> Hackskii, Just had bloods done after 30 days on this protocol and came back with 18.3 nm/l!
> 
> That is way better than the last test I got 4 months after my previous cycle at 13.2nm/l! I will have another test in about a month because I have stopped the clomid at 30 days and still got 15 days of Tamoxifene, so whether my levels will drop off a bit now I'm not sure but so far fantastic. Strength been there all the way through, libido been good, all round pretty damn good! Felt a bit emotionally weird for a week or so on the clomid, but this eased loads. I was on the verge of giving up using AAS altogether, but this protocol has put me back in control, roll on next cycle! Many thanks!


if your still on pct meds mate then these results mean very little surely as the clomid and nolva are likely to be stimulating test production.

the real test is when you get bloods done 2-4 weeks after stopping eveything.


----------



## petes

Did a blast and a cruise used only test and about a 4 week of Mast. Didnt go above 500mg / week with the blast mind. Cruised at 250mg omnedren per 10 days. Total shutdown time was around 20 weeks. I shutdown hard. Nuts were more like peas!! Have always suffered with recovery in the past, but this system so far has worked bang on.


----------



## petes

I am aware of that I know! Thats why I'll have another test in a month! But I'm encouraged that the test that is in my blood is produced by me, I must be producing LH and then test in my body, even if its been heightened by clomid/nolva. When Ive been tested at this stage in the past my results were not even half what they were this time. I'll post again in a month when I get next test. Sure, it may all go to s**t yet!!


----------



## hilly

petes said:


> I am aware of that I know! Thats why I'll have another test in a month! But I'm encouraged that the test that is in my blood is produced by me, I must be producing LH and then test in my body, even if its been heightened by clomid/nolva. When Ive been tested at this stage in the past my results were not even half what they were this time. I'll post again in a month when I get next test. Sure, it may all go to s**t yet!!


will be interesting to see keep us updated mate,

how were the rest of your results? all good


----------



## hackskii

You should be fine.

Zinc is a natural aromatase inhibitor, take that at night before bed and after the PCT meds have stopped.

Vitmain E is said to help leydig cell function, get that down your neck, and vitamin D defiencies are common, up that if you are not taking any.


----------



## petes

Only had testo tested. Will get lipids checked in the next test. Didn't really fancy fasting during pct! I know my HDL gets nocked down with AAS, totals stay about the same from past experience. AI's make things lots worse for me on that score, used flush free B3 at 1g a day for a few months to ease this, but then its harsh on the liver so its a bit of a vicious circle. Must admit its the alteration to lipid profile, that worries me from a side effect point of view more than anything else. Anyone no how to safely control it? Apart from the obvious diet manipulation & cardio?


----------



## red face

this is exactly what i wrote in wiliam llewelyn underground steroids book2009.they call it power pct.i did it after 16weeks course.for me working very well.after 20days i stopped use clomid and added novedex xt from gaspari.it was the best pct i had ever.


----------



## hackskii

petes said:


> Only had testo tested. Will get lipids checked in the next test. Didn't really fancy fasting during pct! I know my HDL gets nocked down with AAS, totals stay about the same from past experience. AI's make things lots worse for me on that score, used flush free B3 at 1g a day for a few months to ease this, but then its harsh on the liver so its a bit of a vicious circle. Must admit its the alteration to lipid profile, that worries me from a side effect point of view more than anything else. Anyone no how to safely control it? Apart from the obvious diet manipulation & cardio?


Well, nolvadex helped my lipid profiles alot, in fact best lipids I have had was just at the tail end of a 45 day PCT.


----------



## Eggo26

Hey hackskii i have a problem and i hope you can help me out.

I am 24 years old and i did 2 cycles in the last 14 months. I did a proper pct for both of the cycles. (only testo for both cycle + hcg + proviron +clomid + nolva)

Now after 4 months of my last injection of testosterone i don't feel recovered at all!

I decided to follow a protocol i have found in this thread (clomid 25mg for 2 months).

I have done 7 days at 50mg and other 3 days at 25mg so far. I am my 10th day and my libido sucks and my balls are so sore!! I would like to know if the sore balls is a normal thing.

What do u suggest i should do?

regards


----------



## hackskii

I have had sore balls before when on clomid, that probably is a good thing.

I would have started out a bit more but the sore balls, that probably is ok anyway, they just sound stubbern.


----------



## -Makaveli-

From what I have read the 500iu of HCG is when your testicles is allready a bit active and not completely shut down. For example if you run 250-500iu once a week during your cycle that would be enough HCG to trigger the FSH production and your testicles will produces a small amount of your own testosteron during your whole cycle. I think the best way for HPTA would be to prevent your body from ever stop producing your own testosterone. If your during your whole cycle add a small amount of HCG to trigger FSH and Clomid or perhaps Nolva to trigger LH then you should be completely recovered even after a longer cycle. Perhaps not if the cycle contains steroids like tren, deca, eq and other steroids known for their ability to shut you down hard.

Greetings from Sweden


----------



## -Makaveli-

I have read quite a lot about different types of recovery stack and I personally thinks that the best way to recovery is, as mention above, to prevent your testicles from a complete shut down. If your succeed whit this and your testicles remain active during the whole cycle then I am most certain that your recovery after the cycle would be a peace of cake!


----------



## hackskii

Well, you got it right but kind of mixed the hormones up some.

HCG doesnt do alot for FSH but does alot for LH.

HCG is an LH analog.

But yes keeping them alive during a cycle works well for aiding in recovery when you start your SERMS.

Clomid can increase FSH by up to 50% @ 100mg ED, so unless you are using HMG during, then FSH (sertoli cells) will take a moment to come around.


----------



## Old but not out

Hackskii

If you had an option what would you choose;

1) small regular hcg doses throughout the cycle

20 larger doses at the end

thanks


----------



## hackskii

Smaller throughout, far less aromitization would occur.


----------



## Old but not out

hackskii said:


> Smaller throughout, far less aromitization would occur.


Apart from the aromitization issues - do you feel this offers you quicker recovery of post cycle natural T

Thanks


----------



## -Makaveli-

hackskii said:


> Well, you got it right but kind of mixed the hormones up some.
> 
> HCG doesnt do alot for FSH but does alot for LH.
> 
> HCG is an LH analog.
> 
> But yes keeping them alive during a cycle works well for aiding in recovery when you start your SERMS.
> 
> Clomid can increase FSH by up to 50% @ 100mg ED, so unless you are using HMG during, then FSH (sertoli cells) will take a moment to come around.


Yep noticed that  . But when it comes to HCG dosage. Your Doc recommended 8 shots of 2500 injections. It seems to me that would be overkill if your nuts are already a bit active. If that was the case then I think they would get the same stimulation by perhaps 500-1000/week. What do you think?

Also, It seems strange to me that he recommends 50mg clomid 12 hour apart. First, Clomid has a halvlife of 36 hours and it seems unnecessary to split the dosage up.

Second, most people seems to be using nolvadex instead of clomid nowadays. Why? I actually dont know. For me I think clomid has worked well before but I allways got some severe vision problems like blurry vision. If this occurs one should immediately stop using clomid because the visionproblems can become permanent. I get these clomid visisionproblems after only a couple of days of using. Last time it took perhaps 3 months before it completely gone away. No more clomid for me. 

The interesting thing whit PCT is that it seems that every steroidexpert (like Bill Phillips and others..) has his one theory but knowone really knows what works best. 

hackskii, just out of curiosity. Has your Doc his one experience whit steroids? Is he perhaps a bodybuilder himself? He seems to know more about this then most doctors I have met.

Cheers


----------



## hackskii

-Makaveli- said:


> Yep noticed that  . But when it comes to HCG dosage. Your Doc recommended 8 shots of 2500 injections. It seems to me that would be overkill if your nuts are already a bit active. If that was the case then I think they would get the same stimulation by perhaps 500-1000/week. What do you think?
> 
> Also, It seems strange to me that he recommends 50mg clomid 12 hour apart. First, Clomid has a halvlife of 36 hours and it seems unnecessary to split the dosage up.
> 
> Second, most people seems to be using nolvadex instead of clomid nowadays. Why? I actually dont know. For me I think clomid has worked well before but I allways got some severe vision problems like blurry vision. If this occurs one should immediately stop using clomid because the visionproblems can become permanent. I get these clomid visisionproblems after only a couple of days of using. Last time it took perhaps 3 months before it completely gone away. No more clomid for me.
> 
> The interesting thing whit PCT is that it seems that every steroidexpert (like Bill Phillips and others..) has his one theory but knowone really knows what works best.
> 
> hackskii, just out of curiosity. Has your Doc his one experience whit steroids? Is he perhaps a bodybuilder himself? He seems to know more about this then most doctors I have met.
> 
> Cheers


If no stimulation has been used during the cycle (HCG) and you are at the end of the cycle then more HCG would be needed.

If HCG has been used during the cycle to keep and maintain testicular function, then less would be required at the end of the cycle.

Remember, you need to know how long the cycle will last, how much gear you use, the esters involved, and what gear was used to determine when to start your PCT and how to use the HCG.

The guys that do a year cycle are screwed because the Leydig cells can become desensitized if long term use of HCG is used.

This study:

50 mg of Clomiphene citrate twice a day for 8 weeks

- Total T up by 268% (increase above baseline level) after 8 weeks of CC administration

- Free T by 1,410%!

http://www.andrologyjournal.org/cgi/reprint/12/4/258

Nolvadex is crap compared to clomid and I have used nolva/Aromasin PCT and failed.

Clomid is far superior in studies and personal experiences with many dudes including myself. If the doc said twice a day, and the study above used it twice a day with those outstanding results, why argue?

The problem with theories is that they need to be used in a real time environment; there has not been one single guy that has asked me to help him that has not seen results or success.

That doctor has competed in bodybuilding and placed 2nd in Mr. Texas.

He has treated over a thousand men for shutdown of steroids and only a few he had problems recovery with, and even then he modified things to make it work.

I look at it like this, I have seen men first hand crash and crumble, and this is one of the worst things I have ever seen. Why would anyone with any common sense do all the homework for a cycle and neglect PCT which probably is the most important pert of the equation?

Ask questions, challenge the poster, get the information, then make an informed decision, but do so only after you feel you have exhausted all your resources then you will have an informed opinion.

I have done this myself, I always challenge, I always want to know the reason behind the answer not just an answer.


----------



## steeley

This is a great thread and wish i'd read it sooner before posting various pct threads on several board.

Similar to others, i have only ever run short cycles and used clomid/nolvadex for pct and had no problem recovering.

I am now in the final 3 weeks of an 18 week cyle of circa 750mg test only. The final 3 weeks will be test p at 100mg ed.

I have decided to use HCG although it is unclear of how much my balls have shrunk but if they have its very little. I doubt very much that this is the only indicator of shutdown though. The morning wood stopped a few weeks ago as well as gains in general and the bird has just told me that she came off the pill when i started this cycle and i have been blowing my beans up her everyday and shes not pregnant- i hope. But then again is a low sperm count also an indicator of shutdown?.

Would starting the HCG 7/14 days- along with Nolvadex- BEFORE the end of cycle at a dose of say 625iu eod and then continue another 7 days into pct at the same dose provide any additional benefits in 'preping' the balls for pct?


----------



## -Makaveli-

It was not my intention to criticize you or your Doc, I just find it interesting to discuss and also for me to lern more about PCT. I personally find it just as interesting to learn and plan the cycle as I do whit the PCT, if not more.


----------



## -Makaveli-

hackskii> I cant find out how to send PM on this board. Therefore I will post my question to you here, you can delete it if you like.

Me and my girlfriend is planning to have a baby. I have now been on a cycle for perhaps 12-16 week of 500mg test and 200-400mg tren. Been using HCG during the whole cycle at 250-500 iu/week and also arimidex. What do you think would be the best PCT to get her pregnant as fast as possible?  I was planning to do 1-2 weeks with HCG 2-3 weeks after the last shot of enanthate and then clomid+nolva for 4-5 weeks. Do you think it would be better to continue with the HCG and clomid for a couple of months? What I mean is, would it increse my chances of getting my girlfrind pregnant? Some say that proviron also could help. I once saw a study that proviron infact could increse both the number av sperms and also the mobility (dont know the correct english word) of the sperms?

Hope you will understand my sometimes bad english


----------



## jock_071279

-Makaveli- said:


> hackskii> I cant find out how to send PM on this board. Therefore I will post my question to you here, you can delete it if you like.
> 
> Me and my girlfriend is planning to have a baby. I have now been on a cycle for perhaps 12-16 week of 500mg test and 200-400mg tren. Been using HCG during the whole cycle at 250-500 iu/week and also arimidex. What do you think would be the best PCT to get her pregnant as fast as possible?  I was planning to do 1-2 weeks with HCG 2-3 weeks after the last shot of enanthate and then clomid+nolva for 4-5 weeks. Do you think it would be better to continue with the HCG and clomid for a couple of months? What I mean is, would it increse my chances of getting my girlfrind pregnant? Some say that proviron also could help. I once saw a study that proviron infact could increse both the number av sperms and also the mobility (dont know the correct english word) of the sperms?
> 
> Hope you will understand my sometimes bad english


Im sure Hacks will give you a better answer, and i myself will be interested in whether or not you should continue HCG during the 2 weeks after the last test shot, and at what dose ..... But to answer your question about continuing HCG for a couple of months! im pretty sure Hacks will say no .. You dont actually start recovering naturally until your not off the HCG, all the HCG is doing is kick starting the testes, the rest is down to yourself and the Clomid & Nolva combo. But please correct me if im wrong Hackskii :confused1:

Jock


----------



## -Makaveli-

Yes, I am aware of that, but my question is if I would continue with HCG and clomid would that increse my chanses of getting my girlfriend pregnant.


----------



## petes

petes said:


> Hackskii, Just had bloods done after 30 days on this protocol and came back with 18.3 nm/l!
> 
> That is way better than the last test I got 4 months after my previous cycle at 13.2nm/l! I will have another test in about a month because I have stopped the clomid at 30 days and still got 15 days of Tamoxifene, so whether my levels will drop off a bit now I'm not sure but so far fantastic. Strength been there all the way through, libido been good, all round pretty damn good! Felt a bit emotionally weird for a week or so on the clomid, but this eased loads. I was on the verge of giving up using AAS altogether, but this protocol has put me back in control, roll on next cycle! Many thanks!


Well it's now been a month off all meds, so that 12 weeks since last shot of test. Just had testo level tested and it is now 20.5nm/l

Think you can say this PCT, for me, has been a complete succes! I followed it exactly as Hacksi suggested. What can I say- fantastic! My natural test levels last time after been off AAS for 12 months was 16.1 nm/l.

Have to say, my one ball is still lots smaller than the other! and there was only a small gradual increase of size in them with the HCG even after 20,000iu's! but the little chaps are working obviously.

Haven't had lipids checked yet, BP bang on.

Many thanks to Hacksi- thanks mate!

Now what do you think guys, should I go for another cycle, or leave it a while??!


----------



## jock_071279

petes said:


> Well it's now been a month off all meds, so that 12 weeks since last shot of test. Just had testo level tested and it is now 20.5nm/l
> 
> Think you can say this PCT, for me, has been a complete succes! I followed it exactly as Hacksi suggested. What can I say- fantastic! My natural test levels last time after been off AAS for 12 months was 16.1 nm/l.
> 
> Have to say, my one ball is still lots smaller than the other! and there was only a small gradual increase of size in them with the HCG even after 20,000iu's! but the little chaps are working obviously.
> 
> Haven't had lipids checked yet, BP bang on.
> 
> Many thanks to Hacksi- thanks mate!
> 
> Now what do you think guys, should I go for another cycle, or leave it a while??!


Hi Petes,

What protocol exactly did you run in the end ?

Cheers

Jock


----------



## Old but not out

petes said:


> Well it's now been a month off all meds, so that 12 weeks since last shot of test. Just had testo level tested and it is now 20.5nm/l
> 
> Think you can say this PCT, for me, has been a complete succes! I followed it exactly as Hacksi suggested. What can I say- fantastic! My natural test levels last time after been off AAS for 12 months was 16.1 nm/l.
> 
> Have to say, my one ball is still lots smaller than the other! and there was only a small gradual increase of size in them with the HCG even after 20,000iu's! but the little chaps are working obviously.
> 
> Haven't had lipids checked yet, BP bang on.
> 
> Many thanks to Hacksi- thanks mate!
> 
> Now what do you think guys, should I go for another cycle, or leave it a while??!


Good to hear it was a success - how has your recovery been in the past?

Last time I had such a **** recovery it has made me think about giving up AS, but my PCT's in the past have been non existent or disorganized at the best. Thinking about trying a 6-8 week blast then running this PCT.

have you ever run HCG during a cycle before - if so do you think this method fares better?

Cheers mate


----------



## hackskii

Ok, there are variables out there that need to be addressed before anyone can give any deffinitive answer to any of the vague questions.

For instance my bro took a year to recover from Deca @ 600 a week for 13 weeks.

This is common, happened to me, and another friend.

So, due to deca's long ester and also the fact its metabolites can be seen in blood for a year or longer, this is of no surprise.

Some gears are far more supressive than others like deca, tren, anadrol to name a few.

Length of time on also will be a variable here.

Amount of mg in the cycle will have a variable here too.

For what it is worth this is how I do things.

I pretty much only run testosterone, its my favorite and I can recovery fairly well with this one.

I run an AI with any aromitizable steroid, like testosterone, dbol, etc.

Controlling estrogen in a cycle helps recovery as estrogen is approx 200 times more supressive than testosterone.

So, if one kept the cycle simple and used lets say testosterone.

Didnt run it for like 5 years....lol.......Lets say 12 weeks max or less.

Ran an AI with it Entire time and also into the clearance time of the drug, but not after clearance.

Ran HCG low dose throughout the cycle @ 500iu twice a week and even into the clearance time of the drug, and even into lets say a week of PCT (I find it works best once stimulated and also with the SERMS it works better), then drop the HCG and continue with the SERMS (clomid, and nolva), there shouldnt be any big deal once done.

The testicles are hands down the rate limiting hinderince twards recovery.

Yes it is supressive to the pituitary, but the nuts are hands down by far the worst.

So, yes it is supressive to use HCG, but if the nuts are not functioning, it may take months for the SERMS to work.

So, get the nuts rolling first and foremost, then you can add or keep the SERMS in the mix.

Clomid works very fast and even within a week, so the supression of HCG is minimal with the use of Clomid, once the HCG is stopped the pituitary can bounce back in as little as two weeks, even less depending.

I dont like the idea of big amounts of HCG, but if the nuts switch has been turned off for a prolonged period of time, they become less sensitive.

By keeping them sensitive during the cycle, recovery is easier after the cycle.

If they have had a long vacation, then they need a kick start and HCG would be best.

For those guys trying to get their birds pregnant, consider the use of HCG, and HMG together.

Testicle size pretty much means nothing for testosterone levels as the leydig cells only comprise about 10% of the total mass.

But, sperm for it to be healthy could take many months even in light of normal testosterone levels as FSH among LH has not been present.

So, FSH can be elivated with clomid up to 50% so anyone that wants to get his bird pregant might want to consider clomid too.

HMG contains 75/75 - /150/150 of LH/FSH

With this in the mix your chances have increased.

Nut size will take far longer and mine even today are small but I feel awesome and am getting morning wood and last night I had a sex dream.

Last cycle was probalby 6 months ago, they still are not huge like they should be, but I am feeling good and no doubt have base normal testosterone levels.


----------



## petes

8 shots of HCG eod @ 2500iu

20mg Tamoxifene ed for 45 days

100mg Clomid ed (spit 12 hours apart) for 30 days

didn't use hcg during cycle but will definitely use it next cycle. I have trouble getting it!

And I only used a low dose of test on my cycle.

Cheers,

Pete


----------



## jock_071279

hackskii said:


> Ok, there are variables out there that need to be addressed before anyone can give any deffinitive answer to any of the vague questions.
> 
> For instance my bro took a year to recover from Deca @ 600 a week for 13 weeks.
> 
> This is common, happened to me, and another friend.
> 
> So, due to deca's long ester and also the fact its metabolites can be seen in blood for a year or longer, this is of no surprise.
> 
> Some gears are far more supressive than others like deca, tren, anadrol to name a few.
> 
> Length of time on also will be a variable here.
> 
> Amount of mg in the cycle will have a variable here too.
> 
> For what it is worth this is how I do things.
> 
> I pretty much only run testosterone, its my favorite and I can recovery fairly well with this one.
> 
> I run an AI with any aromitizable steroid, like testosterone, dbol, etc.
> 
> Controlling estrogen in a cycle helps recovery as estrogen is approx 200 times more supressive than testosterone.
> 
> So, if one kept the cycle simple and used lets say testosterone.
> 
> Didnt run it for like 5 years....lol.......Lets say 12 weeks max or less.
> 
> Ran an AI with it Entire time and also into the clearance time of the drug, but not after clearance.
> 
> Ran HCG low dose throughout the cycle @ 500iu twice a week and even into the clearance time of the drug, and even into lets say a week of PCT (I find it works best once stimulated and also with the SERMS it works better), then drop the HCG and continue with the SERMS (clomid, and nolva), there shouldnt be any big deal once done.
> 
> The testicles are hands down the rate limiting hinderince twards recovery.
> 
> Yes it is supressive to the pituitary, but the nuts are hands down by far the worst.
> 
> So, yes it is supressive to use HCG, but if the nuts are not functioning, it may take months for the SERMS to work.
> 
> So, get the nuts rolling first and foremost, then you can add or keep the SERMS in the mix.
> 
> Clomid works very fast and even within a week, so the supression of HCG is minimal with the use of Clomid, once the HCG is stopped the pituitary can bounce back in as little as two weeks, even less depending.
> 
> I dont like the idea of big amounts of HCG, but if the nuts switch has been turned off for a prolonged period of time, they become less sensitive.
> 
> By keeping them sensitive during the cycle, recovery is easier after the cycle.
> 
> If they have had a long vacation, then they need a kick start and HCG would be best.
> 
> For those guys trying to get their birds pregnant, consider the use of HCG, and HMG together.
> 
> Testicle size pretty much means nothing for testosterone levels as the leydig cells only comprise about 10% of the total mass.
> 
> But, sperm for it to be healthy could take many months even in light of normal testosterone levels as FSH among LH has not been present.
> 
> So, FSH can be elivated with clomid up to 50% so anyone that wants to get his bird pregant might want to consider clomid too.
> 
> HMG contains 75/75 - /150/150 of LH/FSH
> 
> With this in the mix your chances have increased.
> 
> Nut size will take far longer and mine even today are small but I feel awesome and am getting morning wood and last night I had a sex dream.
> 
> Last cycle was probalby 6 months ago, they still are not huge like they should be, but I am feeling good and no doubt have base normal testosterone levels.


Hey Hacks .. what AI would you recommend .. bet you say aromasin the only thing i cant get:confused1: I can get proviron. Also is this to stop estrogen related sides while on (e.g. gyno) ? or just to keep estrogen levels down in general for easier recovery? it would be good to have a few options

Thanks again

Jock


----------



## -Makaveli-

Hackskii> do you think proviron also would help?

And what is HMG? I`ve heard of it but never found it on the "steroid market".


----------



## hackskii

jock_071279 said:


> Hey Hacks .. what AI would you recommend .. bet you say aromasin the only thing i cant get:confused1: I can get proviron. Also is this to stop estrogen related sides while on (e.g. gyno) ? or just to keep estrogen levels down in general for easier recovery? it would be good to have a few options
> 
> Thanks again
> 
> Jock


Proviron is a crap AI, in fact it isnt an AI anyway...lol

I dont care for aromasin myself.

Arimidex, and letro will do more than enough.

Careful with letro, that is some strong stuff.



-Makaveli- said:


> Hackskii> do you think proviron also would help?
> 
> And what is HMG? I`ve heard of it but never found it on the "steroid market".


Human Menopausal Gonadotropins (HMG)

I cant get it either. :lol:


----------



## LOCUST

What does it mean when your balls start to hang low again, im sure i saw a reference to it in this thread somewhere ?

Is this significant ? or am i just obsessed with my balls ?


----------



## hackskii

Ball size is of no indication of testosterone production as leydig cells only comprise about 10% of overall mass of the nuts.

Big balls is always a good thing.


----------



## Peter80

Do guys find it hard to sleep whilst on the SERMS and HCG? The last couple off nights were pretty rocky for me.


----------



## hackskii

HCG keeps me awake if I shoot at night, it works better to me but I cant sleep.


----------



## Peter80

Thanks. Now i know why i have a hard time sleeping.


----------



## Old but not out

LOCUST said:


> What does it mean when your balls start to hang low again, im sure i saw a reference to it in this thread somewhere ?
> 
> Is this significant ? or am i just obsessed with my balls ?


It means that your testicles are either being exposed to LH or HCG. If you are not using HCG then your body is producing LH.


----------



## LOCUST

Old but not out said:


> It means that your testicles are either being exposed to LH or HCG. If you are not using HCG then your body is producing LH.


thats good then, as i finished pct about a month ago.


----------



## Peter80

I am going into my fourth week of the pct protocol now. Whilst on the HCG everything was quite ok. Now only on the clomid and nolva for a week things arent that great. Is it common to lose all drive and feeling funny to say atleast on the clomid and nolva?


----------



## LOCUST

how do you mean funny ?

clomid can play with moods and emotion quite bad.

had me nearly crying to lassie before hcg came along.


----------



## Peter80

I am def more moody and emotional now without the HCG. The other thing that concerns me is my libido. On the HCG it was better then it was for a long time. Now off the HCG and only taking the clomid and nolva drive is gone again. Wondering if that happens to more guys and i just have to wait till i finish the pct and the SERMS to clear out to make a good judgement?


----------



## hackskii

How much HCG did you use?

Yes SERMS can make you feel funny, in a bad way.

Sometimes it is low androgen levels, others are just the drugs.

Once they clear you can get blood done and find out just where you sit.


----------



## Peter80

I did 10.000 iu's in 8 shots. 100mg clomid and 20mg nolva a day. I wasnt completly shutdown this was more a restart. (low normal T levels after a year off a long cycle).

I wanted to know if its normal for libido to be down whilst restoring T levels? But i also realize that its highly individual.


----------



## hackskii

You should be about there anyway.

Unless the cycle was like a year or something....lol

Most likely it is the SERMS, and potentially a bit depressed androgen levles which over time with the clomid will be ok.


----------



## Peter80

The cycle was 2 years lol but now off for a year plus. Thanks Hackskii.


----------



## Old but not out

Peter80 said:


> I did 10.000 iu's in 8 shots. 100mg clomid and 20mg nolva a day. I wasnt completly shutdown this was more a restart. (low normal T levels after a year off a long cycle).
> 
> I wanted to know if its normal for libido to be down whilst restoring T levels? But i also realize that its highly individual.


Did you use an AI during HCG therapy? When did HCG end?


----------



## Peter80

No IA only nolva and clomid. HCG ended 9 days ago.

Week 1 - Felt great, good energy, high libido, great workouts (prob due to HCG)

Week 2 - Felt good, good energy, great workouts, low libido (Think due to the SERMS)

Week 3 - Felt like crap for a few days, vision went bad, was anxious, depressed. Then at about 3 days - started to pick up. Got better each day. By end of week felt alot better, workouts good, still no libido

Week 4 - Feeling really good, energy is great, mind is clear, no depression, workouts great. Still no libido

This perfectly descripes what i am going true at the moment.


----------



## Old but not out

Peter80 said:


> No IA only nolva and clomid. HCG ended 9 days ago.
> 
> Week 1 - Felt great, good energy, high libido, great workouts (prob due to HCG)
> 
> Week 2 - Felt good, good energy, great workouts, low libido (Think due to the SERMS)
> 
> Week 3 - Felt like crap for a few days, vision went bad, was anxious, depressed. Then at about 3 days - started to pick up. Got better each day. By end of week felt alot better, workouts good, still no libido
> 
> Week 4 - Feeling really good, energy is great, mind is clear, no depression, workouts great. Still no libido
> 
> This perfectly descripes what i am going true at the moment.


Water retention? Sore nips?


----------



## hackskii

You are on your way to recovery.

You should feel pretty good once the SERMS are dome


----------



## Peter80

Old but not out said:


> Water retention? Sore nips?


No not at all. I guess you think estrogen? I never ever had estrogen issues. All my blood test so far E was always very low.

thanks man. Hope you are good.


----------



## Peter80

hackskii said:


> You are on your way to recovery.
> 
> You should feel pretty good once the SERMS are dome


I have to say that iam surprised how good i am feeling, yesterday and today.


----------



## Peter80

I am comming to the end off the clomid part of the PCT (100mg clomid for four weeks) is there need to taper down the clomid or can you just stop? I still got 2 weeks nolva at 20mgs left btw.

thanks.


----------



## Old but not out

Peter80 said:


> I am comming to the end off the clomid part of the PCT (100mg clomid for four weeks) is there need to taper down the clomid or can you just stop? I still got 2 weeks nolva at 20mgs left btw.
> 
> thanks.


no need to taper clomid


----------



## Peter80

Finished the clomid today! 2 weeks nolva left. I want to start with some proviron when would be a good time to start this?


----------



## hackskii

Proviron is fine, you can take it when you are all done with the nolva if you like.

I did that last time and thought it was nice.


----------



## spstriken

Hi hackskii

I am new here and my problem is very strange you might not have heard before. I am suffering from low T level and all the sypmtoms you guys get after using AS. I used Saw Palmetto 320 extract and got myself to this problem. I was very healthy no problem what soever before using SP. Can you guide me on how to start HPTA.

thanks

spstriken


----------



## hackskii

Yah, you are the second person that has had a problem with SP.

Very strange.

No doubt things should come back to normal as it is.

Or, you can do some clomid and see how things go?

I doubt you would need HCG.

Clomid @ 100mg ED for 5 to 7 days doubles LH output and can increase FSH by up to 50%, so that might be ok.

100mg the first week, then 50 mg for a week or two later then you are done.

That would be fairly tame and it should give you a good idea anyway what is going on.

Were you diagnosed with low T or just feel like you carry alot of the symptoms and decided this yourself?

Other factors here too like sleep apnea, vitamin or mineral defiencies, stress, etc.


----------



## sitries

Hi hackski - looking to follow your advice after a year long cycle!

2 questions -

1 - i have ROHM pct caps and they contain proviron. can i use these for the 1st 3weeks of the pct and then switch over to nolva and clomid. or would i be better doing this the other way around???

2 - does the 45 day pct recovery period start 2 weeks after your last dose of test like normal. or do you start the hcg during this 2week period??


----------



## hackskii

Timing of PCT equals time it takes for androgens to be within base levels of natural production.

Say, you shoot 300mg of test enanthate you may wait 2 weeks, if you shoot 750mg of sust you might have to wait a month, or 100mg of prop you might wait just 3 days.

Run the ROHM caps at the end, especially if you are running the clomid @ 100mg ED, I think the ROHM caps have 50mg clomid?

In the beginning 50mg of clomid for me wasnt enough, but 100mg ED was.


----------



## sitries

ok cool. il use the nolva clomid hcg combo to start with then switch over to the pct caps.

There is no chance that the proviron will end up shutting me down again is there???

and just to confirm, i will use nothing ( no hcg, no clomid and no nolva in the 2weeks leading up to pct) BTW iv only been on 250mg test enanthate a week so pct will start 2 weeks after last shot.


----------



## hackskii

2 weeks would be perfect, and the proviron wont be an issue.


----------



## sitries

ok thanks Hackski. will keep you posted!! just need a bit of luck on my side now!!


----------



## Drb3e

Hi im Starting a Cylce soon with mostly short esterd gears wich are as follow Eq,Test Prop, Tren Acetate, and Injectabel Winstrol, I wont be using any orals cuz I have done a Test E, oxy-50, Deca, and Tren Hex, 3months ago and since the oxymetholone-50 are really strong I dont want to stress my liver so much again. Well back to my comming up cycle. The Cylce is as follows.

I will be starting EQ 2 weeks ahead of Test Prop and will be finishing 2 weeks earlyer than the rest of my cycle because EQ is in u for about 2 more weeks after last injection.

week1 500mg of EQ/week

week2 500mg of EQ/week

week3 500mg of EQ/week, 200mg of Test Prop EoD

week4 500mg of EQ/week, 200mg of Test Prop EoD

week5 500mg of EQ/week, 200mg of Test Prop EoD

week6 500mg of EQ/week, 200mg of Test Prop EoD

week7 500mg of EQ/week, 200mg of Test Prop EoD

week8 500mg of EQ/week, 200mg of Test Prop EoD

week9 500mg of EQ/week, 200mg of Test Prop EoD, 100mg of Tren Acetate EoD, 100mg of Winstrol EoD

week10 500mg of EQ/week, 200mg of Test Prop EoD, 100mg of Tren Acetate EoD, 100mg of Winstrol EoD

week11 500mg of EQ/week, 200mg of Test Prop EoD, 100mg of Tren Acetate EoD, 100mg of Winstrol EoD

week12 500mg of EQ/week, 200mg of Test Prop EoD, 100mg of Tren Acetate EoD, 100mg of Winstrol EoD

week13 200mg of Test Prop EoD, 100mg of Tren Acetate EoD, 100mg of Winstrol EoD

week14 200mg of Test Prop EoD, 100mg of Tren Acetate EoD, 100mg of Winstrol EoD

That Said I have 15000 IU of HCG on hand but Im not 100% sure on how to or when to start it, So far this is what I was thinking of doing with it, Eighter take it 250iu a day from week 8 until end of cycle than start my pct next day or start taking it with 250iu a day and start it at a later point so it will go into my pct. I have Nolva and clomid at hand for pct. Wich I havent drawn up yet. If you guys could give me any adivce on how to run my PCT ,how long it should be and also what do u guys think of the way I am gonna run my HCG.

PS:I also have 60x25mg tabs of Proviron with which I have a similar debate as the HCG. But with this im not sure If i sould start the Proviron at week 1 with the EQ and finish it when ever the 60 tabs run out or sould I startit at a later stage?

Im eager to hear from you all thank you


----------



## hackskii

EQ will take much longer than 2 weeks to clear.

I would get more HCG personally.

I Would also run a AI week 3 on.

500iu twice a week of HCG would be my choice, and you can start that when you start the AI.

Then you could run 1000iu HCG EOD for 6 shots during your first 12 days of PCT, then drop the HCG and run the clomid and nolva.

HCG during will keep and maintain testicular function, and offer stimulation during PCT.


----------



## Drb3e

how long do you think eq to clear? and if I run 500iu twice a week till the 14th week that is 6000iu and when i bump up to 1000iu eod for six shots wich is 6000iu as well wich comes to 12000iu all together wich is still with in the 15000iu wich i have or did u just make this hcg guidlen according to huw much hcg i have now? O so u think I sould start proviron from week 3? when to drop it?


----------



## hackskii

4 weeks on the EQ to clear.

Yah, use 9 shots then, but you will need 2 weeks at least from last shot for the clomid, then another two weeks with the nolva.

I would use all your HCG for your cycle.

Could start it same first week as your cycle too.

Object is to keep the nuts rolling along from the get go.

Run it all the way up to and even in your PCT.

Not sure but I calculated it wrong the first time, not sure why I was thinking 12,000 when you said 15000....lol


----------



## Drb3e

ok thats fine and what do you think about the 60x25mg of proviron? when sould I start taking that? sould it also go into my pct or sould it stop with my cycle? I was thinking of taking 25mg ED but correct me if im wrong


----------



## hackskii

It wont do much of anything but if it was me I would run that last day of the PCT.

I liked it all on its own.


----------



## Guest

Ok this seems like the perfect thread to ask for help.

I did a course over last summer, ending october, 300mg of test / 300mg deca.

Long story short, i buggered up my whole course and my PCT because i wasnt able to get hold of what i wanted once i started.

5 months on, i still have a fairly large gyno lump, little sex drive, and if i squidge my nips really really hard i get abit of lovely brown stuff come out. Never quite thought that would happen!

Anyway, what im trying to say is how can i get my body back to normal. I learnt my lesson, i just want it to be normal!

Thanks for the help, and abuse i expect to recieve!!!


----------



## hackskii

Goldenbee said:


> Ok this seems like the perfect thread to ask for help.
> 
> I did a course over last summer, ending october, 300mg of test / 300mg deca.
> 
> Long story short, i buggered up my whole course and my PCT because i wasnt able to get hold of what i wanted once i started.
> 
> 5 months on, i still have a fairly large gyno lump, little sex drive, and if i squidge my nips really really hard i get abit of lovely brown stuff come out. Never quite thought that would happen!
> 
> Anyway, what im trying to say is how can i get my body back to normal. I learnt my lesson, i just want it to be normal!
> 
> Thanks for the help, and abuse i expect to recieve!!!


You are still shut down.

I would not play with your nipples too much it can elivate prolactin.

You need to recover then see if you can reverse that gyno.


----------



## Guest

hackskii said:


> You are still shut down.
> 
> I would not play with your nipples too much it can elivate prolactin.
> 
> You need to recover then see if you can reverse that gyno.


Ok cool, to recover would you suggest the previous PCT of:

8 shots of HCG @ 2500iu EOD.

20 mg of nolvadex for 45 days.

Clomid twice a day @ 50mg each dose 12 hours apart.

Ive recently started taking nolva and clomid, do you think i still need HCG this late on or not?

Thanks so much for your help!


----------



## hackskii

Yah, some HCG but not at the doses you suggested.

Something small like 1000iu for 5 to 7 shots EOD and the clomid and nolva.

Once you are dont I would use letro to try and reverse the gyno.

Something like 2.5mg ED for like 5 weeks or up to 7 weeks max.

Even that I would be leary.

The PCT might even revevrse the gyno as the T to E ratio might look more faverable.


----------



## Guest

hackskii said:


> Yah, some HCG but not at the doses you suggested.
> 
> Something small like 1000iu for 5 to 7 shots EOD and the clomid and nolva.
> 
> Once you are dont I would use letro to try and reverse the gyno.
> 
> Something like 2.5mg ED for like 5 weeks or up to 7 weeks max.
> 
> Even that I would be leary.
> 
> The PCT might even revevrse the gyno as the T to E ratio might look more faverable.


ahh your brilliant, i been needing help with this for ages.

thanks for your time ill give it a bash and let ya know how i get on.


----------



## usc277

HCG is available to me in 5000 IU's only

how do i take it ?

i was thinking once my cycle is over, to rest for 2 weeks then take 3 hits of 5000IU's , each one a week apart.

any suggestions ?


----------



## Mars

usc277 said:


> HCG is available to me in 5000 IU's only
> 
> how do i take it ?
> 
> i was thinking once my cycle is over, to rest for 2 weeks then take 3 hits of 5000IU's , each one a week apart.
> 
> any suggestions ?


As i keep advising mate, run it on cycle or at the very least start it around halfway through, especially as you want children.

And like i said in your thread you can add it to your normal steroid jab.

Have a read.

http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/steroid-testosterone-information/55418-hcg-mixing-storing-dosing.html


----------



## usc277

mars1960 said:


> As i keep advising mate, run it on cycle or at the very least start it around halfway through, especially as you want children.
> 
> And like i said in your thread you can add it to your normal steroid jab.
> 
> Have a read.
> 
> http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/steroid-testosterone-information/55418-hcg-mixing-storing-dosing.html


mars man, i want to add it to my cycle, but you suggest 500IU 3 x per week

what i have is 5000 IU not 500IU...dont know how to make the 5000 into 500


----------



## Mars

usc277 said:


> mars man, i want to add it to my cycle, but you suggest 500IU 3 x per week
> 
> what i have is 5000 IU not 500IU...dont know how to make the 5000 into 500


Click the link i posted to my thread.


----------



## usc277

mars1960 said:


> Click the link i posted to my thread.


i see, thanks

but when i go and buy the HCG, they dont sell it to me in a pack, they sell it in a single-syringe form, one single syringe has the 5000 in it already...


----------



## Mars

usc277 said:


> i see, thanks
> 
> but when i go and buy the HCG, they dont sell it to me in a pack, they sell it in a single-syringe form, one single syringe has the 5000 in it already...


They can't possibly be sending it reconstituted, if they are don't buy it.


----------



## usc277

mars1960 said:


> They can't possibly be sending it reconstituted, if they are don't buy it.


thats exactly what there doing, am in a 3rd world country right now.

i cant just not buy it,,,what do you suggest i do now ? not do hcg ?


----------



## Virgo83

usc277 said:


> thats exactly what there doing, am in a 3rd world country right now.
> 
> i cant just not buy it,,,what do you suggest i do now ? not do hcg ?


 What country are you in?


----------



## Mars

usc277 said:


> thats exactly what there doing, am in a 3rd world country right now.
> 
> i cant just not buy it,,,what do you suggest i do now ? not do hcg ?


Then personally i wouldn't buy it, run your cycle and a good PCT then take 2-3 months off.


----------



## usc277

mars1960 said:


> Then personally i wouldn't buy it, run your cycle and a good PCT then take 2-3 months off.


so no HCG ?

just nolva/clomid ?


----------



## Mars

usc277 said:


> so no HCG ?
> 
> just nolva/clomid ?


Yep, and a low dose AI on cycle if you can get it.

You will recover without hCG and your fertility shouldn't be affected, recovery will just take a little longer.


----------



## usc277

mars1960 said:


> Yep, and a low dose AI on cycle if you can get it.
> 
> You will recover without hCG and your fertility shouldn't be affected, recovery will just take a little longer.


whats wrong with 5000 iu's....3 hits, each hit a week apart ?


----------



## hackskii

Never heard of already mixed HCG.

Strange, but If the mix was good you could split those 5000 doses, one hit of 5000 would be a bit much, without the clomid and nolva in there, you would get tits by the end of the next day.

See if you can source some HCG, its all over the net.

Its pretty plentiful due to the HCG diet kicking around and many places sell kits.

I have heard there is some mixed stuff for sublingual, but I dont know anything about that and again it is for the HCG diet.


----------



## jasonstatham300

Hi, I am new to this forum and came across hackskii's HPTA recovery thread and do not know if it had died. I'm 23 and was on a 13 week Deca only cycle where I shot between 275-375 mg a week and my nuts shrunk pretty bad. Right now I am on my 16th day of Clomid at 100mg and was following the 300mg day 1, 100mg days 2-16, and 50mg day 17-30 regimen, but this does nothing for growing my testicles back to normal size. One is significantly larger than the other. Since I am on day 16 would it be bad to start your HCG regimen? Right now I also have nolvadex and letrizole on hand for my next cycle, but will use it now if needed with the HCG. Any help would be appreciated greatly.


----------



## hackskii

Well, I will leave it up to you to decide.

Especially with deca and its long metabolites, testicular function post cycle is critical for recovery.

When did you start the clomid after last shot (how many days)?


----------



## the_man1

could any1 give me sum advice please im startin a cylce of tren enanthanate and test propionate n i was wondering how lng through my cylce i shud start hcg ?


----------



## hackskii

STart your own thread man, and also please do not use text speak as you probably wont get an answer.


----------



## jasonstatham300

hackskii said:


> Well, I will leave it up to you to decide.
> 
> Especially with deca and its long metabolites, testicular function post cycle is critical for recovery.
> 
> When did you start the clomid after last shot (how many days)?


3 weeks after my last shot I started the clomid. I didn't understand what everyone meant by "deca only cycles shut you down hard" I thought they were referring to libido (deca-dick) which I had no issue with, but now I understand shutting down has to do with the HPTA and your testicles.

I was 215 at my peak now I'm 195. Some sides I experienced were depression and fatigue, but now I feel better than I did my last week on although I lost water and muscle. Right now I'm just concerned with getting my testicles back to normal size and will be wiser if I decide to go back on AAS.

Do you suggest I start the HCG right away? Take nolvadex with it even though I was not on any kind of test? Thanks so much in advance for you time and sharing your knowledge I really appreciate it.


----------



## hackskii

Yah I would suggest some HCG in there.

Deca is a supressive drug period, whether taken with any other drug or by itself, it is probably the most supressive drug there is and one of the longest half lifes too.

No doubt you felt like crap, typical of crashing from gear.

I would do another PCT with HCG, clomid and nolva myself.


----------



## the_man1

i duno how to start my own thread i find it hard to use this


----------



## Cowsfortea

Is there any point starting HCG therapy a couple of weeks before test clears from your system?


----------



## hackskii

Cowsfortea said:


> Is there any point starting HCG therapy a couple of weeks before test clears from your system?


Sure, why not?

If the nuts are not firing then you wont recover anyway.

During a cycle is fine, at the end of the cycle is fine, even in PCT it is fine.

But during makes the most sense.

But many dont use so what do you do?

You prepare the nuts with HCG then your endo test will be ready to fire up once you bring the pituitary online with clomid and nolva or clomid alone.

Short story, if the nuts are not functioning, you wont recover any time soon.

This could take up to a year with no intervention.


----------



## jasonstatham300

hackskii said:


> Sure, why not?
> 
> If the nuts are not firing then you wont recover anyway.
> 
> During a cycle is fine, at the end of the cycle is fine, even in PCT it is fine.
> 
> But during makes the most sense.
> 
> But many dont use so what do you do?
> 
> You prepare the nuts with HCG then your endo test will be ready to fire up once you bring the pituitary online with clomid and nolva or clomid alone.
> 
> Short story, if the nuts are not functioning, you wont recover any time soon.
> 
> This could take up to a year with no intervention.


Okay so my plan is to start the hcg tomorrow before I go to bed and shoot 2500iu's sq. How many mg of nolvadex should I use during this 15day period?now the nolvadex will prevent gyno from the hcg? And help with recovery? Stop after 15 days.

I'm goiing to get bloodwork done 3 weeks after pct and if levels and testicles r down i will do another pct like u suggest. I am confident the hcg will help slot first time around just worried about growin breasts with all that hcg and no ai. I hav letro should I tak that too?


----------



## hackskii

Oh yah, you will need an AI or nolva for that shot, 2500iu would give me gyno next day.

Even shots like 1000iu give me gyno symptoms within 24 hours.

Need the nolva to protect the leydig cells too.

Once you stop the HCG you will need about 2 weeks of clomid for the pituitary to fire up.

Nolva can be used there as well and run for a couple of weeks past the clomid.

HCG needs to be in there for testicular function.


----------



## jasonstatham300

hackskii said:


> Oh yah, you will need an AI or nolva for that shot, 2500iu would give me gyno next day.
> 
> Even shots like 1000iu give me gyno symptoms within 24 hours.
> 
> Need the nolva to protect the leydig cells too.
> 
> Once you stop the HCG you will need about 2 weeks of clomid for the pituitary to fire up.
> 
> Nolva can be used there as well and run for a couple of weeks past the clomid.
> 
> HCG needs to be in there for testicular function.


Okay so last two questions. Again I appreciate this alot. So I'll be shooting 2500iu's tonight and taking the shot with how many mgs of nolvadex or do I take the nolvadex in the morning? Tomorrow same dosage of nolvadex same time? Say I don't have enough clonid for the 2 extra weeks will this make a huge difference cause my connect is down and I hav jus enough for y next cycle. Thank you so much for this valuable info and I definilty will update each other day


----------



## hackskii

Run the nolva right now, you can run it all the way through the HCG, but you need to run the clomid once you stop the HCG after about 3 days, so once it clears you can have the clomid bump the pituitary online.

How many clomid tabs do you have?


----------



## hackskii

You potentially could stay shutdown for up to a year.


----------



## hackskii

Not me personally.


----------



## jasonstatham300

SjHArvey said:


> Have you ever heard of a case where someone has never recovered?


I bet if you go back on within that year that's when you hear the stories of guys not being able to get hard without Viagra. These are young guys too.

Hackskii, is 20mgs of nolva with the shot enough?

I have about 55 tabs of clomid (50mg each) and have been on for 3 weeks already. I was thinking if I stop the clomid now to save a few, not take 300 mgs day 1 of my next cycle, and start clomid after hcg I should have enough.

After the hcg I take 100mgs ed for 2 weeks?

Why is my pct becoming more expensive than my gear?!?! Lol


----------



## hackskii

Nolva should be ok with that.

Save the clomid for 3 days after last jab of HCG.

100mg clomid for 2 weeks correct.


----------



## big vin

hello wonder if any one can give me some insight into recover after using gear i been using decca and sustanon on and off for about 10 years but since my last course i have not recovered . my testosterone ws abnormally low i have lost libido i also have lost morning erections and when i ejaculate there is nothing there it is totally dry it has been about 10 months now since my last course finished i can supply you with all my blood test results testosterone lh fsh shbg can someone givw me advice


----------



## antill10

running test propionate for my second cycle have done my research but no clear indication how long this stuff is run before you see results is it your usual 2 weeks?


----------



## hackskii

big vin said:


> hello wonder if any one can give me some insight into recover after using gear i been using decca and sustanon on and off for about 10 years but since my last course i have not recovered . my testosterone ws abnormally low i have lost libido i also have lost morning erections and when i ejaculate there is nothing there it is totally dry it has been about 10 months now since my last course finished i can supply you with all my blood test results testosterone lh fsh shbg can someone givw me advice


That is fine mate, start your own thread and invite me there, and then we can help you.



antill10 said:


> running test propionate for my second cycle have done my research but no clear indication how long this stuff is run before you see results is it your usual 2 weeks?


Results from testosterone?

I see them in 4 weeks.


----------



## Phil D

Hackskii, first of all great job on all the info you've put up here!

Im nearly a week into my first cycle of 12 weeks 500mg/week test e, with 30mg/day dbol kickstart. I'm running adex at 0.5mg eod and have nolva and clomid for PCT.

I didnt think i could get hold of any HCG but it turns out i can get some in about 3 weeks. Should i run it throught the rest of my cycle once i get it or save it and do the 8x 2500iu shot protocol at the start of PCT?

Also i am a bit confused about the measurments of HCG as i can buy 2x 10000iu vials which should give me enough for 8 2500iu shots, but iu is a measure of strength right? does this mean i will just need to use more bac water to reconstitute it with?


----------



## hackskii

Bac water in that 10,000iu will last about a month, I would run that @ 500iu twice to three times a week.

Twice a week should be enough to keep your nuts alive.

Run that all the way to the start of PCT.

Keep the AI in there during the time you stopped your last jab and the 3 weeks running up to your PCT along with the HCG.

I dont see a problem.

After all it is the nuts that are the sticky problem with recovery.

You just divide the water into the iu of the powder.

The iu of the powder over all wont change, if you mix it with 1ml or 10ml, the overall amount wont change.

If for instance you used 4ml of bac water, each ml would be 2500iu, but beings you are shooting 500iu twice a week you need to divide that into the amount of water you use.


----------



## Phil D

hackskii said:


> Bac water in that 10,000iu will last about a month, I would run that @ 500iu twice to three times a week.
> 
> Twice a week should be enough to keep your nuts alive.
> 
> Run that all the way to the start of PCT.
> 
> Keep the AI in there during the time you stopped your last jab and the 3 weeks running up to your PCT along with the HCG.
> 
> I dont see a problem.
> 
> After all it is the nuts that are the sticky problem with recovery.
> 
> You just divide the water into the iu of the powder.
> 
> The iu of the powder over all wont change, if you mix it with 1ml or 10ml, the overall amount wont change.
> 
> If for instance you used 4ml of bac water, each ml would be 2500iu, but beings you are shooting 500iu twice a week you need to divide that into the amount of water you use.


So i will i be better off running HCG throughout the cycle even though il be starting it about a month into the cycle?

is a larger shot of HCG required at the start of pct?


----------



## hackskii

As long as you are using it, your nuts will be able to respond to HCG anyway.

Run it the day you get it and run it all the way into the start of PCT while the gear clears your system.

There will be some shutdown in a month, but I would run an AI during and your first shot of HCG can be a bit more but all in all 500iu twice a week should keep testicular function.


----------



## Phil D

hackskii said:


> As long as you are using it, your nuts will be able to respond to HCG anyway.
> 
> Run it the day you get it and run it all the way into the start of PCT while the gear clears your system.
> 
> There will be some shutdown in a month, but I would run an AI during and your first shot of HCG can be a bit more but all in all 500iu twice a week should keep testicular function.


Appreciate the advice mate, my balls say thanks!


----------



## Phil D

What pins do i need to buy? i can buy 30g 0.5 inch pins and barrels seperately so i can switch the pin after drawing. I've heard a lot of people use insulin syringes which as far as im aware you cant change the pin on??

Also if i buy 3x 5000iu vials of HCG how much bac water will i need to reconstitute it? Would 10ml per 5000iu vail be too much (would give 500iu per 1ml)


----------



## hackskii

Phil D said:


> What pins do i need to buy? i can buy 30g 0.5 inch pins and barrels seperately so i can switch the pin after drawing. I've heard a lot of people use insulin syringes which as far as im aware you cant change the pin on??
> 
> Also if i buy 3x 5000iu vials of HCG how much bac water will i need to reconstitute it? Would 10ml per 5000iu vail be too much (would give 500iu per 1ml)


29 guage is fine.

I would not like to shoot 1ml sub-q personally, that would leave a nasty lump and possible a bruise.

I dont even like shooting half a ml, just enough so you can measure accuratly.


----------



## Phil D

hackskii said:


> 29 guage is fine.
> 
> I would not like to shoot 1ml sub-q personally, that would leave a nasty lump and possible a bruise.
> 
> I dont even like shooting half a ml, just enough so you can measure accuratly.


How does 500iu per 0.25ml shot in a 1ml barrel sound? Would that be 40ml per 5000iu of hcg? (my maths is crap!!)


----------



## hackskii

Oh man, you just confused me big time, where in the world did you get 40ml from?

That would be 2.5ml for every .25ml of 500iu to equal 5000iu

But then again you said you had 10,000iu HCG bottles?


----------



## Phil D

hackskii said:


> Oh man, you just confused me big time, where in the world did you get 40ml from?
> 
> That would be 2.5ml for every .25ml of 500iu to equal 5000iu
> 
> But then again you said you had 10,000iu HCG bottles?


Yeah i could buy either 2x 10000iu bottles but i wont need that much if im just doing 500iu 2x a week. I can buy 3x 5000iu bottles so i dont have to reconstitute as much at once and il also save a bit of money.

Lol yeah not sure where i got 40ml from! (told you my maths was crap!!)

I think im right in saying that if i reconstituted 5000iu with 2.5ml of bac water this would give 500iu per 0.25ml of solution?

40ml lol :lol:


----------



## hackskii

Yes.

My math sucks too, that is why I use a calculator......lol


----------



## Phil D

hackskii said:


> Yes.
> 
> My math sucks too, that is why I use a calculator......lol


Thanks for all the help! One last question - why do a lot of people use slin pins where you cant change the pin to draw and shoot? Wouldnt it be good to change the pin after drawing?


----------



## hackskii

Phil D said:


> Thanks for all the help! One last question - why do a lot of people use slin pins where you cant change the pin to draw and shoot? Wouldnt it be good to change the pin after drawing?


Why would you need to change the pin?

I mean it is a water based gear and stuff like pregnyl comes in amps so that isnt an issue.

I do see your point though, just hitting the rubber top does dull the pin some and can cause it to not go in as well.

I notice this on the peptides the worst, they tend to go off to the side and the rubber is thicker and that dulls the pins.

But sub-Q is easy, and the pins are so small you wont lose much in the head of the pin.

Plus, why use a harpoon when you can use a slin pin?

Scar tissue can be a problem over time, so sub-q makes the most sense to me.


----------



## Phil D

hackskii said:


> Why would you need to change the pin?
> 
> I mean it is a water based gear and stuff like pregnyl comes in amps so that isnt an issue.
> 
> I do see your point though, just hitting the rubber top does dull the pin some and can cause it to not go in as well.
> 
> I notice this on the peptides the worst, they tend to go off to the side and the rubber is thicker and that dulls the pins.
> 
> But sub-Q is easy, and the pins are so small you wont lose much in the head of the pin.
> 
> Plus, why use a harpoon when you can use a slin pin?
> 
> Scar tissue can be a problem over time, so sub-q makes the most sense to me.


Ah ok that makes sense then, 0.5ml slins it is!


----------



## xcolemanx

FSH:2.33 mIU/mL , in male;1.5-12.4 mIU/mL

LH:2.69 mIU/mL , in male;1.7-8.6

ESTRADIOL(E2):30.09 pg/mL , in male;7.63-42.6 pg/mL

PROLAKTİN:6.14 ng/ml , in male;4.04-15.2

TOTAL TESTESTERON:447.2 ng/dl, in male;270-1730

PROGESTERON:0.717 ng/ml, in male;0,27-0,90

i used Deca with Testo.But didnt do PCT.I have deca-dick for 2.5 months.My LH is so slow can i use this PCT? or Nolvadex+Clomid may be enough? My balls are in the normal size i had a control with doctor


----------



## hackskii

Yah, I think you would probably be fine with clomid and nolva.

You will notice something within the first two weeks no doubt.


----------



## xcolemanx

Someone said me go 1500IU HCG per 2 days.Total 5 shot

and start nolvadex with HCG

start Clomid after 3 days last HCG shot.So i will ask HCG to new doctors and will start PCT this week


----------



## Lois_Lane

xcolemanx said:


> Someone said me go 1500IU HCG per 2 days.Total 5 shot
> 
> and start nolvadex with HCG
> 
> start Clomid after 3 days last HCG shot.So i will ask HCG to new doctors and will start PCT this week


The hcg dose may be fine but start clomid at the same time as hcg and nolva.


----------



## xcolemanx

this dosage cant do negative effect to my balls.am i sure? Anyway i will ask to my doctor and new control and then i will start PCT.I wasted 2-3 months without PCt and without my penis lol


----------



## Lois_Lane

xcolemanx said:


> this dosage cant do negative effect to my balls.am i sure? Anyway i will ask to my doctor and new control and then i will start PCT.I wasted 2-3 months without PCt and without my penis lol


Well i use 2500iu hcg during this protocol.

Small doses wont work if your nuts are small.

The nolva should protect the cells from become desensitized.

And yes that sounds awful i couldn't do with one day without my penis let alone 3 months....lol


----------



## xcolemanx

Deca-Dick really sux man.I did very big mistake with using Deca+Enanthate now i want recover fully only


----------



## hackskii

My bro took a year to recover from deca.

That isnt the case generally with testoterone, unless you have been on for years.


----------



## xcolemanx

What did your bro use for PCT? I dont have any problem with my balls and junks.This deca-dick cant effect me permanent,am i sure?  I wont try any cyclye before fully recover


----------



## hackskii

He did use like 10,000iu HCG a week from last shot (deca didnt clear and that didnt do much to help him).

He used some clomid but not sure how much.

This was 7 years ago, so I didnt have the knowledge back then to help him proper.

Took him a year to recover and 3 months from last jab (600mg deca), he still was getting testicular atrophy.

But that is a while nother story.


----------



## Lois_Lane

After reading a little about how low dose clomid boosts test a lot.

Scott what do you think about longer term use of clomid after pct has ended at like 50mg eod? What negatives could you see arising from this idea?


----------



## hackskii

My problem with clomid is a double edge.

When I drop it to 50mg ED I lose night time wood.

But at about week 3 or so @ 100mg I get tracers in my vision, which tells me that is some kind of occular toxcicity.

So, I am stuck between recovery, and sides in vision.

At the end of the 45 day protocol, pretty much I am good to go, I can have sex and dont feel all that bad.

That is one reason last time I ran some proviron and thought it was nice after the PCT.


----------



## hilly

so you added in the proviron after the 45 day period scott


----------



## Lois_Lane

hackskii said:


> My problem with clomid is a double edge.
> 
> When I drop it to 50mg ED I lose night time wood.
> 
> But at about week 3 or so @ 100mg I get tracers in my vision, which tells me that is some kind of occular toxcicity.
> 
> So, I am stuck between recovery, and sides in vision.
> 
> At the end of the 45 day protocol, pretty much I am good to go, I can have sex and dont feel all that bad.
> 
> That is one reason last time I ran some proviron and thought it was nice after the PCT.


Sounds good Scott.

I am loving the pct its going very smoothly and i feel much better than on cycle.

I was just debating running 50mg of clomid eod for a few months after the pct has ended because it boosts test quite a bit.


----------



## hackskii

hilly said:


> so you added in the proviron after the 45 day period scott


Yah I did and for a few months, I think it was kind of nice.

I had a bit of fear of some kind of rebound thing once off the SERMS.

I just did it for the hell of it just to see, got a good deal on it so I thought id add it.

If I had to do it again id defo toss in some peptides.



Lois_Lane said:


> Sounds good Scott.
> 
> I am loving the pct its going very smoothly and i feel much better than on cycle.
> 
> I was just debating running 50mg of clomid eod for a few months after the pct has ended because it boosts test quite a bit.


I guess you can, one of the studies was just like 10mg or something.

I got tons laying around and wanted to try low dose to see if I get more night time wood, or any shift in libido.

Saving it for another cycle is crazy as I got all the HCG, clomid and nolva for a cycle along with some testosterone yet, I feel good and dont really want to do another cycle.

I am getting fat though and I dont like that, my activity level is down and I have an injured back, making even standing painful.

Went to the chiro and I think it will be sorted soon.


----------



## xcolemanx

hacksi,im using Clomid+Nolvadex.but i wonder that,nolvadex may kill sex drive? if it effects,i will continue with clomid only


----------



## hackskii

(Clomid Sides) Vision problems, libido problems, and sometimes it makes you feel like a chick.....lol

But it works very well at what it does.

I notice zero sides from nolva with the exception of improved lipid profile.


----------



## shawky

got this from a doctor what do you think to this

This recovery cycle works 100% of the time. In extreme cases, it

actually needs to be done twice. This recovery cycle is predicated on

the fact that the athlete has something to recover. Baseline blood

testing of testosterone levels, estradiol levels, and prolactin levels

will tell the athlete the whole story. If the athlete's baseline Testos

levels are low to low-normal of the range, then recovery is a waste of

time. If the athlete's levels are in the middle, then a recovery cycle

may be worth it to see the body's reaction.

Begin this cycle the week after last anabolic steroids intake.

Weeks one thru three: 1,000U hcg, IM, Monday, Wednesday, Friday; 20mg

Nolvadex daily. [50mg Clomid daily is added to the cycle if the athlete

is coming off a prolonged (12 week+), 600mg+total, weekly anabolic

steroids dosing (heavy)].

Weeks four thru six: 20mg Nolvadex daily. (50mg Clomid daily if you

used it the first three weeks)

Weeks seven, eight: clean. Use this time to evaluate your previous

anabolic steroids cycle and your recovery. Begin planning your next

anabolic steroids cycle.


----------



## hackskii

shawky said:


> got this from a doctor what do you think to this
> 
> This recovery cycle works 100% of the time. In extreme cases, it
> 
> actually needs to be done twice. This recovery cycle is predicated on
> 
> the fact that the athlete has something to recover. Baseline blood
> 
> testing of testosterone levels, estradiol levels, and prolactin levels
> 
> will tell the athlete the whole story. If the athlete's baseline Testos
> 
> levels are low to low-normal of the range, then recovery is a waste of
> 
> time. If the athlete's levels are in the middle, then a recovery cycle
> 
> may be worth it to see the body's reaction.
> 
> Begin this cycle the week after last anabolic steroids intake.
> 
> Weeks one thru three: 1,000U hcg, IM, Monday, Wednesday, Friday; 20mg
> 
> Nolvadex daily. [50mg Clomid daily is added to the cycle if the athlete
> 
> is coming off a prolonged (12 week+), 600mg+total, weekly anabolic
> 
> steroids dosing (heavy)].
> 
> Weeks four thru six: 20mg Nolvadex daily. (50mg Clomid daily if you
> 
> used it the first three weeks)
> 
> Weeks seven, eight: clean. Use this time to evaluate your previous
> 
> anabolic steroids cycle and your recovery. Begin planning your next
> 
> anabolic steroids cycle.


It looks ok but I have a problem with what he says about lower end of normal recovery is a waste of time.

Some guys take up to a year to recover and yah, it is not a waste of time as I was low end and below normal and did another PCT and came within range.

For some 1000 may be too low, I also like more clomid in there than 50mng ED.

But he is on the right track though.


----------



## MUSCLEPT

hackskii said:


> I am using aromasin right now, low dose.
> 
> Proviron is too expensive and I dont think the return on investment is worth the cost.
> 
> Letro is very strong, it crushed my libido on cycle.
> 
> Proviron is one of those things that there seems to be much debate about.
> 
> Some say it is supressive, some say it isnt, and there are some studies to say either one maybe correct.
> 
> If a good PCT is outlined and followed, no need for proviron, that just eats up some more of your money, it is not needed for recovery.
> 
> If it is for sex, PT-141 maybe even a better option.


Wow, Proviron is so cheap here in Portugal.. like ** a box .. Aromasin here is ***...are sure about ur prices? i'm amazed..


----------



## hackskii

Edit your post bro, you cant do price discussions here...............


----------



## pariah

Is HCG absolutely necessary for recovery? I've never used and well I think I recover pretty well but I don't know what I should be looking for in terms of non-recovery. I have seen blokes in the gym who are shut down bad loose all their gains but I tend to keep some of mine. I also seem to be able to get erections regularly too so I'm assuming rightly or wrongly that I'm working?

I know I'm going to get flack for this as reading thru this thread I see what proper PCT a proper PCT protocol is, but I only ever do 2 boxes of Clomid starting at 300mg day 1, 100mg for 10 days and 50mg there after til done. This was the approved protocol over on MT for ages, perhaps its changed.

So to recap, I'm looking at post 1 of this thread from Scott for a proper PCT protocol?


----------



## hackskii

It depends really, if you were on gear for years, a couple of boxes of clomid would not do it.

Many things to consider, length of cycle, gear used in cycle, if HCG is used during the cycle, how hard or easy one recoveres, much trial and error here, the big guns PCT would be fine for some but over kill for others, all depends on the cycle, the person, age, and a bunch of things.


----------



## pa88

Can you take a look at this cycle over here http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/steroid-testosterone-information/102129-first-jabs-cycle.html#post1713062 please and check its ok ?

cheers,

pa88


----------



## Bgrills

Scott,

I'm curious what kind of protocol you'd put me on.

I made the unfortunate mistake of using Tren as my first cycle. It shut me down hard. I didn't fully recover after running 3 weeks of clomid starting at 100 tapering to 50 (In retrospect I realize that was wayyyyy too little). I gave my body 8 months and SLOWLY began recovering, but still had noticeably low test. I ran another cycle this time test cyp only for about 8 weeks. Ran 8 weeks of nolva for pct (40 tapering to 20). My balls are bigger then they ever have been in the past year, but I still don't feel completely recovered (its been around 7 weeks I have 1 more of pct). I do get morning wood, but not to the extent that I was getting it before.

Should I give my body some time after my pct to see if it can slowly pick itself up? Or in your opinion would starting one of the suggested hCG protocols be best? I really would like to ATTEMPT to fix this on my own before going the doctor route (potential TRT)... A route that I would be going down with practically a blind fold in terms of knowing who to talk to (all the way in FLA).


----------



## hackskii

I hate nolva only for PCT, for me that does not work, clomid and nolva work well together.

Problem is that the testicles need to be online first.

If you are getting morning wood then it is likely you are pretty close to recovery.

You could do a small PCT with HCG to bring things back, but if you can have sex and keep and maintain erections, along with morning wood, then I personally would not worry about it.


----------



## Bgrills

hackskii said:


> I hate nolva only for PCT, for me that does not work, clomid and nolva work well together.
> 
> Problem is that the testicles need to be online first.
> 
> If you are getting morning wood then it is likely you are pretty close to recovery.
> 
> You could do a small PCT with HCG to bring things back, but if you can have sex and keep and maintain erections, along with morning wood, then I personally would not worry about it.


Scott,

I have decided that I am going to get a blood test done before I start spending a few hundred on clom, tamo, and hCG.

I'll definitely be keeping you updated!


----------



## EmporioMani

well !! tomorrow i gonna run my pct cycle which is this one

1500 ui EOD 4 shots

Clomid @ 100 mg ED for 21 days

Nolavdex @ 20mg ED for 35 days

i will keep you guys updated !!


----------



## hashmo

hi hackskii (or anyone else that knows the answer),

What's the reasoning do you think behind taking the clomid at the same time as doing the HCG shots at the start of this PCT (for the first couple of weeks). Could you wait until after the HCG shots to start the clomid, or is it able to result in the the pituitary starting to produce LH, even while the HCG is stimulating the testes to produce testosterone? I always thought the testosterone produced by the testes during HCG administration would stop the pituitary from producing LH. I'd be interesting in yours or anyones) thoughts on this.

I think I get the reasoning for taking the nolvadex during HCG administration (to prevent the Leydig cell desensitisation and avert any possible gyno from the resulting aromatization from the test being produced). But still don't see the benefit of taking the clomid at the same time as the HCG.

Please feel free to knock down my thinking if its all wrong


----------



## hackskii

Good for you to think at all the dynamics here.

My thoughts....

I cant say for sure but I will toss some thoughts out there and we can challenge the status quo.

First, testosterone wont be supressive as the testicles are atrophied and no doubt wont be pumping big numbers out the first few if any shots.

So, it wont be testosterone that is the supression to the pituitary it would be the HCG as it is an LH analog.

But, although I am not sure if the body is seeing the LH as it is specific for the leydig cells to produce testosterone and the body sees this, so not sure if LH itself is supressive but I do kind of suspect it may be.

I have heard HCG criples the pituitary but then again with clomid and nolva in the mix it probably wont over power these SERMS>

Remember clomid @ 100mg ED after 5 to 7 days doubles LH output, and this is not supressive to the pituitary even though testosterone levels can go above base values on clomid, yet it is doubled in LH yet not being supressed.

Or, perhaps the added clomid with the nolva is enough to not have to deal with the very high aromitization going on from bolus HCG doses?

I do know this method works, and unless one has issues with the sides of clomid, it maybe ok to just run the nolva and then clomid once HCG has been stopped if said person cant handle the sides.

Thanks though for bringing your thoughts to the table.


----------



## latitude

I'm a few days from the end of my pct which was.

After last shot-

weeks 1-3 hcg 1000iux3(week)

weeks 2-3 HMG 75iu (ED)

weeks 2-4 clomid 100mg ed weeks 4-6 clomid 50mg ed

weeks 1-3 Nolvadex 40mg ed weeks 4-6 20mg ed

I run proviron at 75mg ed for the first 4 weeks but dropped it because my libido dived and it didnt seem to be helping it(only reason i had it in my PCT).

So after what i thought was a solid pct, my libido is zero, my nuts still feel on the small side, losing mass and i thinks its safe to say my test hasnt recovered so need options where to go from here.

Do you guys think running another pct would be helpful? was thinking mybe i should hit another 10000iu hcg(get my nuts back to size) hmg 75iu(14 days) and run nov/clom along aside.

would be greatful for any help on this one guys!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Old but not out

latitude said:


> I'm a few days from the end of my pct which was.
> 
> After last shot-
> 
> weeks 1-3 hcg 1000iux3(week)
> 
> weeks 2-3 HMG 75iu (ED)
> 
> weeks 2-4 clomid 100mg ed weeks 4-6 clomid 50mg ed
> 
> weeks 1-3 Nolvadex 40mg ed weeks 4-6 20mg ed
> 
> I run proviron at 75mg ed for the first 4 weeks but dropped it because my libido dived and it didnt seem to be helping it(only reason i had it in my PCT).
> 
> So after what i thought was a solid pct, my libido is zero, my nuts still feel on the small side, losing mass and i thinks its safe to say my test hasnt recovered so need options where to go from here.
> 
> Do you guys think running another pct would be helpful? was thinking mybe i should hit another 10000iu hcg(get my nuts back to size) hmg 75iu(14 days) and run nov/clom along aside.
> 
> would be greatful for any help on this one guys!!!!!!!!!!!!


Cycle? Cycle length? AI's while on cycle?


----------



## latitude

Weeks 1-3 50mg dbol

weeks 1-18 750mg test e

weeks 1-7 400mg deca

weeks 10-14 tren a 75mg(ed)

weeks 4-8 500iu hcg (e3d) weeks 12-16 500iu(e3d)

Didnt use any AI's during cycle,

I should have run more hcg but hey we learn from are mistakes!!


----------



## hackskii

Generally speaking 18 week cycles would be more supressive than lets say 10 to 12 week cycles, and not to mention that is not a small cycle using supressive compounds.

I find that in the bigger cycles I need 20,000iu of HCG to recover.

For total time of the gear you used, id say you missed the HCG by about 50%

Go get another 10,000iu HCG and run another PCT.

You issue no doubt is the testicles more than anything else, they are not working.


----------



## latitude

Have hcg on the way so when it arrives i'll start another pct. I also have HMG, do you think it would be useful to add that aswell?

And what would be your thoughts be on proviron during pct? do you thinks its suppressive. The only reason i added it was because i thought it would keep the libido in order!

Thanks for the advise hackskii. Useful as always!


----------



## hackskii

Yah, you can run the HMG EOD with the HCG, no problems there.

Proviron wont help you IMO, but you can run it after the PCT if you like, I did that and liked the results actually.

Issues with libido is nothing more than your nuts are not performing, loss of libido is a direct conciquence of low endo androgens.


----------



## EmporioMani

i was on 12 weeks of cycle !!

week 1 to 6

blodenone " equipose"

testosterone proponate

winstrol

parabolan

week 7 to 9

masteron 200

testestrone proponaite

paraboln

TrenMix

week 9 to 12

winstrol

testestrone proponate

parabolan

trenMIX

week 11 to 13

propecia

well !! after week 13 i was finished with steriods and thought to wait one week and start my pct cycle !! and i waited for 1 week and on week 14 i started my pct cycle !!

my pct cycle is

1500iu EOD 4 shots

clomid ED @ 100 mg

novaldex ED @ 20 mg

well i started my pct on 17-07-2010 and today gonna be my third day on pct its monday here !!

well before beginning of my pct my nuts were ok in good size and my dick use to stand and i didnt have erection problems but i use to get less libido out after masturbating !!

but now !! as its third day on pct !! my nuts got shrinked and my dick doesnt stand it does but very hardly !!

so what do u guys think shell i continue with pct or there is somethin i am missing or there is something i need to change ? HELP PLEASE REALLY TENSED !!


----------



## hackskii

Yes, stay on the PCT but you need more HCG.....................


----------



## EmporioMani

i am having 1500iu 4 amps so thats equal to 6000iu !!! how much do i need more ?


----------



## EmporioMani

i had my second 1500iu shot now !!! seems like my balls arent getting online !! no improvement till now i can see !!

well !! i have still 2 more shots 2 go of 1500iu !! one is on wednesday and second one is on friday !! if nothin improve up !! than shell i take 5000iu of HCG E3D only 3 shots ? which will be 15 000 iu !!


----------



## Old but not out

EmporioMani said:


> i had my second 1500iu shot now !!! seems like my balls arent getting online !! no improvement till now i can see !!
> 
> well !! i have still 2 more shots 2 go of 1500iu !! one is on wednesday and second one is on friday !! if nothin improve up !! than shell i take 5000iu of HCG E3D only 3 shots ? which will be 15 000 iu !!


No divide it into 1500iu doses and continue as you are


----------



## EmporioMani

alright !!! till how long shell i take HCG ?


----------



## EmporioMani

well !! now i have 3 shots of HCG 1500iu and now i can see my balls r getting online back into shape.

i think its better to run lil amount of HCG between 250iu to 1000ui once or twice a week when you r on steriod cycle because when u gonna finish your steriod cycle you will be doing HPTA recovery and u will not be needing a heavy protocol of HCG and this will be a biggest advantage to us because it will not suck all of your muscles.

For example me, i had 12 weeks of AAS cycle and now i am on PCT rountine and i can see its sucking me up i mean u really start losing not all but good amount of muscles you gain. Clenbutrol will help keeping some amount of muscles there but still u will loose good amount of muscles.

So, next time i gonna run 500ui of HCG twice a week while i am on AAS cycle, so at the end i will not be needing heavy HCG and it will help me to keep my muscle mass.

KEEP REPS LESS AND HEAVY WEIGHT WHILE ON PCT.

WELL I WANNA THANKS HACKSKII FOR HIS GR8 SUPPORT OF GIVING ME PCT GUIDE AND TELLING ME HOW TO USE IT !! U R ALWAYS HELPFUL HACKSKII !! THANKS ALOT !!


----------



## saekson

Question for Hackskii

ive been on a cycle of test e 600mg e5d for 20 weeks

When is a good time to start pct, I read on another forum from a guy named Dr Scally that implyes waiting 4 weeks for the test to be of a somewhat normal range, because the window can be missed if taken too early.


----------



## fat-2-thi-2-mus

hey hakii,

right been on cycle for around 14 weeks and was planning on running your protocal as i have not run hcg throughout...but i am now looking at competing this time next year so i want to change to a blast ans cruise... and run hcg from now throughout... but as i have used tren i have had some atrophy...would you suggest a larger dose of hcg on the start of cruise to rectify atrophy followed by lets say 1000 iu per week? thanks


----------



## hackskii

saekson said:


> Question for Hackskii
> 
> ive been on a cycle of test e 600mg e5d for 20 weeks
> 
> When is a good time to start pct, I read on another forum from a guy named Dr Scally that implyes waiting 4 weeks for the test to be of a somewhat normal range, because the window can be missed if taken too early.


Scally is correct, 600mg of test e would take a month to clear, perhaps a couple of days longer than that.

20 week cycles are pretty supressive.


----------



## hackskii

fat-2-thi-2-mus said:


> hey hakii,
> 
> right been on cycle for around 14 weeks and was planning on running your protocal as i have not run hcg throughout...but i am now looking at competing this time next year so i want to change to a blast ans cruise... and run hcg from now throughout... but as i have used tren i have had some atrophy...would you suggest a larger dose of hcg on the start of cruise to rectify atrophy followed by lets say 1000 iu per week? thanks


At least that amount, use an AI as well.


----------



## julian coleman

followed this to the letter and i feel great,also taking growth and igf , got 12 days left.well pleased with this.


----------



## fat-2-thi-2-mus

hackskii said:


> At least that amount, use an AI as well.


excuse me for being stupid hakkii, but...

i am already running an ai, but what would it look like if i wanted to introduce hcg...would i start with an agressive dose and then go to i.e 1000 ius per week... what protocal would you recomend?

cheers J


----------



## danny1871436114701

hackskii said:


> At least that amount, use an AI as well.


Hey mate, read through the pages, wicked thread

I am running a PCT for my first cycle doing 50mg clomid 20mg nolva, cycle was

dbol 30mg day for 4 weeks

Test e 500mg for 12 weeks

Added in winny at 30mg a day last 4 weeks didnt like it though

I am planning second cycle and would like your thoughts on a PCT mate

http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/steroid-testosterone-information/107900-good-pct-second-cycle.html#post1809251


----------



## hackskii

fat-2-thi-2-mus said:


> excuse me for being stupid hakkii, but...
> 
> i am already running an ai, but what would it look like if i wanted to introduce hcg...would i start with an agressive dose and then go to i.e 1000 ius per week... what protocal would you recomend?
> 
> cheers J


500iu times 2 but if you are already atrophied then bringing them back will take a bit more effort.


----------



## goldenhairgod

hackskii said:


> I talked to the doc today on the phone and he answered many questions for me in regards to recovery of the HPTA.
> 
> For those of you who don't know what that is it is "Hypothalamus Pituitary Testicular Axis"
> 
> After administration of AAS, you have shutdown of the HPTA. Depending on the meds taken shutdown can be severe and much does depend on the person as well.
> 
> This is the protocol the doc said he used in literally thousands of users with suppressed HPTA.
> 
> First thing, the 500iu a day was not enough to make the testicles do their job, he suggested this was just a waste of time and money.
> 
> He suggests 8 shots of HCG @ 2500iu EOD.
> 
> With this you take 20 mg of nolvadex for 45 days.
> 
> Clomid is also taken but twice a day @ 50mg each dose 12 hours apart.
> 
> The reason for the amounts of HCG (which is the most important part, if the balls don't fire everything else is worthless), is based on his determination to bring the balls back to life, too little wont accomplish this, too much risks damage to the Leydig cells.
> 
> So he basically was saying that you do the HCG and around day 10 of the above protocol, you should get a blood test for testosterone. If it is above 400 or greater then this says the balls will be just fine once you get off the HCG and the Clomid and nolva take over. This will accept the LH that you are putting out to maintain testicular function.
> 
> He used the term like jumping a car. Your battery (Pituitary gland) if low wont start your car (your testicles), if you use another car and jumper cables (HCG) once the car starts your battery (HP part of the HPTA) will keep your car running.
> 
> The clomid by itself he suggested can inhibit either the pituitary or the hypothalamus (can't remember which one) but if taken with nolva this blocks the estrogen receptors so you wont inhibit that.
> 
> So clomid in his protocol is always taken with nolvadex ALWAYS.
> 
> He did mention that sometimes the balls just don't take and then you do the protocol again. He said it was rare that he could not fire up the HPTA.
> 
> He said that beings that I have good size difference (balls), feel good, strength gains, and a greasy face he felt I should have no problems with returning the HPTA.
> 
> Some things he said was tribulis was actually inhibitory on the HPTA, great I wish I found that out after I bought two bottles.
> 
> ZMA, he said if it made me feel good then go for it but it is placebo and the HCG, clomid, nolva was it and all that is needed.
> 
> Talked to him about progesterone and he said never take that if you are a man (the last doc prescribed it to me)
> 
> Sorry aftershock, I forgot to ask him about the GH question he was saying so much I was just trying to listen.
> 
> One thing he did mention (in an article) was that HGH actually helped with the testicular recovery with things and adding that to the Protocol is a good idea and productive.
> 
> Avoid aspirin when on HCG as it kind of ruins the effects.
> 
> He said oxandrolone was suppressive on the HPTA, but Deca and Anadrol were probably the worst in his opinion. I asked him about tren but he had no knowledge as he never used it.
> 
> He did mention that test in itself was not all that suppressive and he has seen guys on 18 months that came off and made a full recovery in 45 days with the above protocol.
> 
> He said one of the best ways was 12 weeks of test, followed by the above protocol, then start another 12 weeks followed by the above protocol with a month off after that then start again.
> 
> He did say that desensitization to HCG took around 2 months, and the dose of 2500 was fine and no damage or desensitization would occur if you followed his protocol.
> 
> There it is.


hi brother i'm considering this protocol on my aas abuse recovery; i'd like to know if i have to run clomid and nolvadex simultaneosly with hcg or right after my last shot . i will appreciate any advise on this


----------



## hackskii

After clearance of the gear, so exo does not interfere with endo.


----------



## Perfect Animal

Hi,

Ive a question about my HPTA recovery.

Im using aas for 4-5years, last cycle was ON about 30weeks. Using test,tren,deca,eq,dbol,drol,winny. Ofcourse not everything at same time. Mixing two steroids for 6-8 weeks, and changing it another 2's. Never go above 750mg/week test, 400mg/week tren/eq/deca, 40mg/day winny/dbol, and 100mg/day drol Was using HCG every 6-8weeks, when was changing aas. But never used 2500iu/eod HCG, I was using 1000iu/ed for 10-14 days.

In the end of cycle I was using test prop, and winny. It's already week from my last test shot, and last winny tabs.

Now Im thinking about getting my family bigger.

Do you think that this protocole :

8 shots of HCG @ 2500iu EOD.

20 mg of nolvadex for 45 days.

Clomid twice a day @ 50mg each dose 12 hours apart.

Will work on me ? I was wondering about adding proviron 100mg/ed.

And should I start nolvadex/clomid with first shot of HCG ?


----------



## ProDubai

Hello hackskii, I've been watching your thread for much like one year and I used your protocol and thanks It helped me recover on shorter cycles 4-5 weeks max gains most was kept after a cycle but my mistake is I did a longer cycle and I crashed heavy. Here what I did after the first crash:

<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" /><o></o>

Jump started with HCG for one week

<o></o>

Clomid 50mg/day for one week blood test TT:2.81ng/ml no nolvadex

<o></o>

Then 100mg + 20mg nolvadex one week

<o></o>

After that back to 50mg + 20mg one week

<o></o>

Felt good dropped clomid then boom couple of days I crashed wail on 20 mg

nolvadex blood test was 1.3ng/ml

Back ground:34 years old 1997 to 2002 did roids cycles.

Keep my Wight at 170p to 175 p 8 to 12 % fat from 2002 to 2008 my length

5.8 no roids

Back on roids on short cycles 2009 to 2010 wight jumped to 185p fat around

7.5% to 8.5% keep most of The gains I was happy thanks to your protocol .

When I screwed up with doing 10 weeks cycle with heavy as much as 1000

enth and 400 prop with primo 800 mg a week

Here where I crashed two times one after the cycle and the other when on 20mg nolvadex only.

My weight now is 160p in 40 days L<o></o>

Now I'm thinking to do a light cycle to bring my weight back, then I will do your protocol, what you think?

Thanks


----------



## hackskii

Perfect Animal said:


> Hi,
> 
> Ive a question about my HPTA recovery.
> 
> Im using aas for 4-5years, last cycle was ON about 30weeks. Using test,tren,deca,eq,dbol,drol,winny. Ofcourse not everything at same time. Mixing two steroids for 6-8 weeks, and changing it another 2's. Never go above 750mg/week test, 400mg/week tren/eq/deca, 40mg/day winny/dbol, and 100mg/day drol Was using HCG every 6-8weeks, when was changing aas. But never used 2500iu/eod HCG, I was using 1000iu/ed for 10-14 days.
> 
> In the end of cycle I was using test prop, and winny. It's already week from my last test shot, and last winny tabs.
> 
> Now Im thinking about getting my family bigger.
> 
> Do you think that this protocole :
> 
> 8 shots of HCG @ 2500iu EOD.
> 
> 20 mg of nolvadex for 45 days.
> 
> Clomid twice a day @ 50mg each dose 12 hours apart.
> 
> Will work on me ? I was wondering about adding proviron 100mg/ed.
> 
> And should I start nolvadex/clomid with first shot of HCG ?


Well, you were on for a long time, it may work, you might want to add in HMG to the mix somewhere if fertility is a concern.

But yah for the most part yes that is what I would do.


----------



## hackskii

ProDubai said:


> Hello hackskii, I've been watching your thread for much like one year and I used your protocol and thanks It helped me recover on shorter cycles 4-5 weeks max gains most was kept after a cycle but my mistake is I did a longer cycle and I crashed heavy. Here what I did after the first crash:
> 
> <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" /><o></o>
> 
> Jump started with HCG for one week
> 
> <o></o>
> 
> Clomid 50mg/day for one week blood test TT:2.81ng/ml no nolvadex
> 
> <o></o>
> 
> Then 100mg + 20mg nolvadex one week
> 
> <o></o>
> 
> After that back to 50mg + 20mg one week
> 
> <o></o>
> 
> Felt good dropped clomid then boom couple of days I crashed wail on 20 mg
> 
> nolvadex blood test was 1.3ng/ml
> 
> Back ground:34 years old 1997 to 2002 did roids cycles.
> 
> Keep my Wight at 170p to 175 p 8 to 12 % fat from 2002 to 2008 my length
> 
> 5.8 no roids
> 
> Back on roids on short cycles 2009 to 2010 wight jumped to 185p fat around
> 
> 7.5% to 8.5% keep most of The gains I was happy thanks to your protocol .
> 
> When I screwed up with doing 10 weeks cycle with heavy as much as 1000
> 
> enth and 400 prop with primo 800 mg a week
> 
> Here where I crashed two times one after the cycle and the other when on 20mg nolvadex only.
> 
> My weight now is 160p in 40 days L<o></o>
> 
> Now I'm thinking to do a light cycle to bring my weight back, then I will do your protocol, what you think?
> 
> Thanks


Think?

Like in a cycle that isnt supressive yet give you some of your weight back?


----------



## ProDubai

hackskii said:


> Think?
> 
> Like in a cycle that isnt supressive yet give you some of your weight back?


6 weeks 250mg sustanon + 400mg Primo + (2 * 500IU HCG all through to clearance) Than 45days PCT.... :thumbup1:


----------



## hackskii

Probably wont need that much PCT mate.

If HCG is used throughout and cycle is not supressive, subtle will do.


----------



## ProDubai

Much appreciated mate.


----------



## Perfect Animal

Thanks for help bro. Hope it will work for me. Other ways my lady would kick my little cojones ;-)

And 1 Q more - what is HMG ?

Ok, I found what is HMG. But 'm not able to buy it now. Is it worth to use it after using HCG ? or maybe use it after pct ?


----------



## hackskii

During, for those that find it very difficult to recover.

It is used with HCG.


----------



## BillC

Halfway through pct , finished with HCG 5 days ago, still taking 100/40 clomid and Nolva, plus 50mg proviron. Everything fine, good mood in general, actually say I feel unnormally happy. Only problem I'm having is sleep. Having very vivid dreams and keep waking 4 times plus a night. Do this a lot anyhow due to prostate being knackered but I'm waking not needing to pee, just startling awake. Last but night I must have been dreaming I was fighting as I kept hitiing the bed , shouting and swearing out loud and kept sitting up and slamming my fist on bed in sleep. Very bizarre, never normally like this, but dreams are getting more and more vivid.

Any clues as to what it is, or am I just going mad :lol: My money is on clomid as it affected me badly last time round, was very emotional / tearful although this time it seems to be agreeing.


----------



## hackskii

I would drop the nolva to 20mg ED, no need to run over that.

I get crazy dreams too mate, melatonin makes this worse but then again sleep is better.

Dreaming is a good thing.


----------



## 576

hackskii said:


> I talked to the doc today on the phone and he answered many questions for me in regards to recovery of the HPTA.
> 
> For those of you who don't know what that is it is "Hypothalamus Pituitary Testicular Axis"
> 
> After administration of AAS, you have shutdown of the HPTA. Depending on the meds taken shutdown can be severe and much does depend on the person as well.
> 
> This is the protocol the doc said he used in literally thousands of users with suppressed HPTA.
> 
> First thing, the 500iu a day was not enough to make the testicles do their job, he suggested this was just a waste of time and money.
> 
> He suggests 8 shots of HCG @ 2500iu EOD.
> 
> With this you take 20 mg of nolvadex for 45 days.
> 
> Clomid is also taken but twice a day @ 50mg each dose 12 hours apart.
> 
> The reason for the amounts of HCG (which is the most important part, if the balls don't fire everything else is worthless), is based on his determination to bring the balls back to life, too little wont accomplish this, too much risks damage to the Leydig cells.
> 
> So he basically was saying that you do the HCG and around day 10 of the above protocol, you should get a blood test for testosterone. If it is above 400 or greater then this says the balls will be just fine once you get off the HCG and the Clomid and nolva take over. This will accept the LH that you are putting out to maintain testicular function.
> 
> He used the term like jumping a car. Your battery (Pituitary gland) if low wont start your car (your testicles), if you use another car and jumper cables (HCG) once the car starts your battery (HP part of the HPTA) will keep your car running.
> 
> The clomid by itself he suggested can inhibit either the pituitary or the hypothalamus (can't remember which one) but if taken with nolva this blocks the estrogen receptors so you wont inhibit that.
> 
> So clomid in his protocol is always taken with nolvadex ALWAYS.
> 
> He did mention that sometimes the balls just don't take and then you do the protocol again. He said it was rare that he could not fire up the HPTA.
> 
> He said that beings that I have good size difference (balls), feel good, strength gains, and a greasy face he felt I should have no problems with returning the HPTA.
> 
> Some things he said was tribulis was actually inhibitory on the HPTA, great I wish I found that out after I bought two bottles.
> 
> ZMA, he said if it made me feel good then go for it but it is placebo and the HCG, clomid, nolva was it and all that is needed.
> 
> Talked to him about progesterone and he said never take that if you are a man (the last doc prescribed it to me)
> 
> Sorry aftershock, I forgot to ask him about the GH question he was saying so much I was just trying to listen.
> 
> One thing he did mention (in an article) was that HGH actually helped with the testicular recovery with things and adding that to the Protocol is a good idea and productive.
> 
> Avoid aspirin when on HCG as it kind of ruins the effects.
> 
> He said oxandrolone was suppressive on the HPTA, but Deca and Anadrol were probably the worst in his opinion. I asked him about tren but he had no knowledge as he never used it.
> 
> He did mention that test in itself was not all that suppressive and he has seen guys on 18 months that came off and made a full recovery in 45 days with the above protocol.
> 
> He said one of the best ways was 12 weeks of test, followed by the above protocol, then start another 12 weeks followed by the above protocol with a month off after that then start again.
> 
> He did say that desensitization to HCG took around 2 months, and the dose of 2500 was fine and no damage or desensitization would occur if you followed his protocol.
> 
> There it is.


You don't need the Clomid. That is old school, like a wives tale, Nolva is much better at everything Clo does and even at lower doses.


----------



## hackskii

576 said:


> You don't need the Clomid. That is old school, like a wives tale, Nolva is much better at everything Clo does and even at lower doses.


Its not old school and no nolva does not do what clomid does.

It is better for estrogenic sides, but not as good as raising LH nor FSH for that matter.


----------



## Perfect Animal

Today Im after 7 HCG shots.

Im using 100mg Clomid and 20mg Nolva every evening. Its impossible for me to use Clomid every 12hours - I have problems with seeing.

I feel fine, my balls are getting normal, but I feel that my test level is still weak. Or Im used to be ON, and my current libido is normal.


----------



## 576

hackskii said:


> Its not old school and no nolva does not do what clomid does.
> 
> It is better for estrogenic sides, but not as good as raising LH nor FSH for that matter.


Argue with the following article, I didn't write it...

Clomid, Nolvadex and Testosterone Stimulation

By William Llewellyn

I have received a lot of heat lately about my preference for Nolvadex over Clomid, which I hold for all purposes of use (in the bodybuilding world anyway); as an anti-estrogen, an HDL (good) cholesterol-supporting drug, and as a testosterone-stimulating compound. Most people use Nolvadex to combat gynecomastia over Clomid anyway, so that is an easy sell. And for cholesterol, well, most bodybuilders unfortunately pay little attention to this important issue, so by way of disinterest, another easy opinion to discuss. But when it comes to using Nolvadex for increasing endogenous testosterone release, bodybuilders just do not want to hear it. They only seem to want Clomid. I can only guess that this is based on a long rooted misunderstanding of the actions of the two drugs. In this article I would therefore like to discuss the specifics for these two agents, and explain clearly the usefulness of Nolvadex for the specific purpose of increasing testosterone production.

Clomid and Nolvadex

I am not sure how Clomid and Nolvadex became so separated in the minds of bodybuilders. They certainly should not be. Clomid and Nolvadex are both anti-estrogens belonging to the same group of triphenylethylene compounds. They are structurally related and specifically classified as selective estrogen receptor modulators (SERMs) with mixed agonistic and antagonistic properties. This means that in certain tissues they can block the effects of estrogen, by altering the binding capacity of the receptor, while in others they can act as actual estrogens, activating the receptor. In men, both of these drugs act as anti-estrogens in their capacity to oppose the negative feedback of estrogens on the hypothalamus and stimulate the heightened release of GnRH (Gonadotropin Releasing Hormone). LH output by the pituitary will be increased as a result, which in turn can increase the level of testosterone by the testes. Both drugs do this, but for some reason bodybuilders persist in thinking that Clomid is the only drug good at stimulating testosterone. What you will find with a little investigation however is that not only is Nolvadex useful for the same purpose, it should actually be the preferred agent of the two.

Studies conducted in the late 1970's at the <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comffice:smarttags" /><st1laceType w:st="on">University</st1laceType> of <st1laceName w:st="on">Ghent</st1laceName> in <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1lace w:st="on">Belgium</st1lace></st1:country-region> make clear the advantages of using Nolvadex instead of Clomid for increasing testosterone levels (1). Here, researchers looked the effects of Nolvadex and Clomid on the endocrine profiles of normal men, as well as those suffering from low sperm counts (oligospermia). For our purposes, the results of these drugs on hormonally normal men are obviously the most relevant. What was found, just in the early parts of the study, was quite enlightening. Nolvadex, used for 10 days at a dosage of 20mg daily, increased serum testosterone levels to 142% of baseline, which was on par with the effect of 150mg of Clomid daily for the same duration (the testosterone increase was slightly, but not significantly, better for Clomid). We must remember though that this is the effect of three 50mg tablets of Clomid. With the price of both a 50mg Clomid and 20mg Nolvadex typically very similar, we are already seeing a cost vs. results discrepancy forming that strongly favors the Nolvadex side.

Pituitary Sensitivity to GnRH

But something more interesting is happening. Researchers were also conducting GnRH stimulation tests before and after various points of treatment with Nolvadex and Clomid, and the two drugs had markedly different results. These tests involved infusing patients with 100mcg of GnRH and measuring the output of pituitary LH in response. The focus of this test is to see how sensitive the pituitary is to Gonadotropin Releasing Hormone. The more sensitive the pituitary, the more LH will be released. The tests showed that after ten days of treatment with Nolvadex, pituitary sensitivity to GnRH increased slightly compared to pre-treated values. This is contrast to 10 days of treatment with 150mg Clomid, which was shown to consistently DECREASE pituitary sensitivity to GnRH (more LH was released before treatment). As the study with Nolvadex progresses to 6 weeks, pituitary sensitivity to GnRH was significantly higher than pre-treated or 10-day levels. At this point the same 20mg dosage was also raising testosterone and LH levels to an average of 183% and 172% of base values, respectively, which again is measurably higher than what was noted 10 days into therapy. Within 10 days of treatment Clomid is already exerting an effect that is causing the pituitary to become slightly desensitized to GnRH, while prolonged use of Nolvadex serves only to increase pituitary sensitivity to this hormone. That is not to say Clomid won't increase testosterone if taken for the same 6 week time period. Quite the opposite is true. But we are, however, noticing an advantage in Nolvadex.

The Estrogen Clomid

The above discrepancies are likely explained by differences in the estrogenic nature of the two compounds. The researchers' clearly support this theory when commenting in their paper, "The difference in response might be attributable to the weak intrinsic estrogenic effect of Clomid, which in this study manifested itself by an increase in transcortin and testosterone/estradiol-binding globulin [sHBG] levels; this increase was not observed after tamoxifen treatment". In reviewing other theories later in the paper, such as interference by increased androgen or estrogen levels, they persist in noting that increases in these hormones were similar with both drug treatments, and state that," &#8230;a role of the intrinsic estrogenic activity of Clomid which is practically absent in Tamoxifen seems the most probable explanation".

Although these two are related anti-estrogens, they appear to act very differently at different sites of action. Nolvadex seems to be strongly anti-estrogenic at both the hypothalamus and pituitary, which is in contrast to Clomid, which although a strong anti-estrogen at the hypothalamus, seems to exhibit weak estrogenic activity at the pituitary. To find further support for this we can look at an in-vitro animal study published in the American Journal of Physiology in February 1981 (2). This paper looks at the effects of Clomid and Nolvadex on the GnRH stimulated release of LH from cultured rat pituitary cells. In this paper, it was noted that incubating cells with Clomid had a direct estrogenic effect on cultured pituitary cell sensitivity, exerting a weaker but still significant effect compared to estradiol. Nolvadex on the other hand did not have any significant effect on LH response. Furthermore it mildly blocked the effects of estrogen when both were incubated in the same culture.

Conclusion

To summarize the above research succinctly, Nolvadex is the more purely anti-estrogenic of the two drugs, at least where the HPTA (Hypothalamic-Pituitary-Testicular Axis) is concerned. This fact enables Nolvadex to offer the male bodybuilder certain advantages over Clomid. This is especially true at times when we are looking to restore a balanced HPTA, and would not want to desensitize the pituitary to GnRH. This could perhaps slow recovery to some extent, as the pituitary would require higher amounts of hypothalamic GnRH in the presence of Clomid in order to get the same level of LH stimulation.

Nolvadex also seems preferred from long-term use, for those who find anti-estrogens effective enough at raising testosterone levels to warrant using as anabolics. Here Nolvadex would seem to provide a better and more stable increase in testosterone levels, and likely will offer a similar or greater effect than Clomid for considerably less money. The potential rise in SHBG levels with Clomid, supported by other research (3), is also cause for concern, as this might work to allow for comparably less free active testosterone compared to Nolvadex as well. Ultimately both drugs are effective anti-estrogens for the prevention of gyno and elevation of endogenous testosterone, however the above research provides enough evidence for me to choose Nolvadex every time.

In next month's follow-up article I will be discussing the role anti-estrogens play in post-cycle testosterone recovery. Most specifically, I will be detailing what a proper post-cycle ancillary drug program looks like, and explain why anti-estrogens alone are not effective during this window of time.

References

1. Hormonal effects of an antiestrogen, tamoxifen, in normal and oligospermic men. Vermeulen, Comhaire. Fertil and Steril 29 (1978) 320-7

2. Disparate effect of clomiphene and tamoxifen on pituitary gonadotropin release in vitro. Adashi EY, Hsueh AJ, Bambino TH, Yen SS. Am J Physiol 1981 Feb;240(2):E125-30

3. The effect of clomiphene citrate on sex hormone binding globulin in normospermic and oligozoospermic men. Adamopoulos, Kapolla et al. Int J Androl 4 (1981) 639-45<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" /><o></o>


----------



## hackskii

576 said:


> Argue with the following article, I didn't write it...
> 
> Clomid, Nolvadex and Testosterone Stimulation
> 
> By William Llewellyn
> 
> I have received a lot of heat lately about my preference for Nolvadex over Clomid, which I hold for all purposes of use (in the bodybuilding world anyway); as an anti-estrogen, an HDL (good) cholesterol-supporting drug, and as a testosterone-stimulating compound. Most people use Nolvadex to combat gynecomastia over Clomid anyway, so that is an easy sell. And for cholesterol, well, most bodybuilders unfortunately pay little attention to this important issue, so by way of disinterest, another easy opinion to discuss. But when it comes to using Nolvadex for increasing endogenous testosterone release, bodybuilders just do not want to hear it. They only seem to want Clomid. I can only guess that this is based on a long rooted misunderstanding of the actions of the two drugs. In this article I would therefore like to discuss the specifics for these two agents, and explain clearly the usefulness of Nolvadex for the specific purpose of increasing testosterone production.
> 
> Clomid and Nolvadex
> 
> I am not sure how Clomid and Nolvadex became so separated in the minds of bodybuilders. They certainly should not be. Clomid and Nolvadex are both anti-estrogens belonging to the same group of triphenylethylene compounds. They are structurally related and specifically classified as selective estrogen receptor modulators (SERMs) with mixed agonistic and antagonistic properties. This means that in certain tissues they can block the effects of estrogen, by altering the binding capacity of the receptor, while in others they can act as actual estrogens, activating the receptor. In men, both of these drugs act as anti-estrogens in their capacity to oppose the negative feedback of estrogens on the hypothalamus and stimulate the heightened release of GnRH (Gonadotropin Releasing Hormone). LH output by the pituitary will be increased as a result, which in turn can increase the level of testosterone by the testes. Both drugs do this, but for some reason bodybuilders persist in thinking that Clomid is the only drug good at stimulating testosterone. What you will find with a little investigation however is that not only is Nolvadex useful for the same purpose, it should actually be the preferred agent of the two.
> 
> Studies conducted in the late 1970's at the <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comffice:smarttags" /><st1laceType w:st="on">University</st1laceType> of <st1laceName w:st="on">Ghent</st1laceName> in <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1lace w:st="on">Belgium</st1lace></st1:country-region> make clear the advantages of using Nolvadex instead of Clomid for increasing testosterone levels (1). Here, researchers looked the effects of Nolvadex and Clomid on the endocrine profiles of normal men, as well as those suffering from low sperm counts (oligospermia). For our purposes, the results of these drugs on hormonally normal men are obviously the most relevant. What was found, just in the early parts of the study, was quite enlightening. Nolvadex, used for 10 days at a dosage of 20mg daily, increased serum testosterone levels to 142% of baseline, which was on par with the effect of 150mg of Clomid daily for the same duration (the testosterone increase was slightly, but not significantly, better for Clomid). We must remember though that this is the effect of three 50mg tablets of Clomid. With the price of both a 50mg Clomid and 20mg Nolvadex typically very similar, we are already seeing a cost vs. results discrepancy forming that strongly favors the Nolvadex side.
> 
> Pituitary Sensitivity to GnRH
> 
> But something more interesting is happening. Researchers were also conducting GnRH stimulation tests before and after various points of treatment with Nolvadex and Clomid, and the two drugs had markedly different results. These tests involved infusing patients with 100mcg of GnRH and measuring the output of pituitary LH in response. The focus of this test is to see how sensitive the pituitary is to Gonadotropin Releasing Hormone. The more sensitive the pituitary, the more LH will be released. The tests showed that after ten days of treatment with Nolvadex, pituitary sensitivity to GnRH increased slightly compared to pre-treated values. This is contrast to 10 days of treatment with 150mg Clomid, which was shown to consistently DECREASE pituitary sensitivity to GnRH (more LH was released before treatment). As the study with Nolvadex progresses to 6 weeks, pituitary sensitivity to GnRH was significantly higher than pre-treated or 10-day levels. At this point the same 20mg dosage was also raising testosterone and LH levels to an average of 183% and 172% of base values, respectively, which again is measurably higher than what was noted 10 days into therapy. Within 10 days of treatment Clomid is already exerting an effect that is causing the pituitary to become slightly desensitized to GnRH, while prolonged use of Nolvadex serves only to increase pituitary sensitivity to this hormone. That is not to say Clomid won't increase testosterone if taken for the same 6 week time period. Quite the opposite is true. But we are, however, noticing an advantage in Nolvadex.
> 
> The Estrogen Clomid
> 
> The above discrepancies are likely explained by differences in the estrogenic nature of the two compounds. The researchers' clearly support this theory when commenting in their paper, "The difference in response might be attributable to the weak intrinsic estrogenic effect of Clomid, which in this study manifested itself by an increase in transcortin and testosterone/estradiol-binding globulin [sHBG] levels; this increase was not observed after tamoxifen treatment". In reviewing other theories later in the paper, such as interference by increased androgen or estrogen levels, they persist in noting that increases in these hormones were similar with both drug treatments, and state that," &#8230;a role of the intrinsic estrogenic activity of Clomid which is practically absent in Tamoxifen seems the most probable explanation".
> 
> Although these two are related anti-estrogens, they appear to act very differently at different sites of action. Nolvadex seems to be strongly anti-estrogenic at both the hypothalamus and pituitary, which is in contrast to Clomid, which although a strong anti-estrogen at the hypothalamus, seems to exhibit weak estrogenic activity at the pituitary. To find further support for this we can look at an in-vitro animal study published in the American Journal of Physiology in February 1981 (2). This paper looks at the effects of Clomid and Nolvadex on the GnRH stimulated release of LH from cultured rat pituitary cells. In this paper, it was noted that incubating cells with Clomid had a direct estrogenic effect on cultured pituitary cell sensitivity, exerting a weaker but still significant effect compared to estradiol. Nolvadex on the other hand did not have any significant effect on LH response. Furthermore it mildly blocked the effects of estrogen when both were incubated in the same culture.
> 
> Conclusion
> 
> To summarize the above research succinctly, Nolvadex is the more purely anti-estrogenic of the two drugs, at least where the HPTA (Hypothalamic-Pituitary-Testicular Axis) is concerned. This fact enables Nolvadex to offer the male bodybuilder certain advantages over Clomid. This is especially true at times when we are looking to restore a balanced HPTA, and would not want to desensitize the pituitary to GnRH. This could perhaps slow recovery to some extent, as the pituitary would require higher amounts of hypothalamic GnRH in the presence of Clomid in order to get the same level of LH stimulation.
> 
> Nolvadex also seems preferred from long-term use, for those who find anti-estrogens effective enough at raising testosterone levels to warrant using as anabolics. Here Nolvadex would seem to provide a better and more stable increase in testosterone levels, and likely will offer a similar or greater effect than Clomid for considerably less money. The potential rise in SHBG levels with Clomid, supported by other research (3), is also cause for concern, as this might work to allow for comparably less free active testosterone compared to Nolvadex as well. Ultimately both drugs are effective anti-estrogens for the prevention of gyno and elevation of endogenous testosterone, however the above research provides enough evidence for me to choose Nolvadex every time.
> 
> In next month's follow-up article I will be discussing the role anti-estrogens play in post-cycle testosterone recovery. Most specifically, I will be detailing what a proper post-cycle ancillary drug program looks like, and explain why anti-estrogens alone are not effective during this window of time.
> 
> References
> 
> 1. Hormonal effects of an antiestrogen, tamoxifen, in normal and oligospermic men. Vermeulen, Comhaire. Fertil and Steril 29 (1978) 320-7
> 
> 2. Disparate effect of clomiphene and tamoxifen on pituitary gonadotropin release in vitro. Adashi EY, Hsueh AJ, Bambino TH, Yen SS. Am J Physiol 1981 Feb;240(2):E125-30
> 
> 3. The effect of clomiphene citrate on sex hormone binding globulin in normospermic and oligozoospermic men. Adamopoulos, Kapolla et al. Int J Androl 4 (1981) 639-45<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" /><o></o>


I have seen his article on this but endo doctors do not use nolva for diagnosing secondary aquired hypogonadism, they use clomid.

Clomid @ 100mg ED from 5 to 7 days doubles LH output and increases FSH by 20% to 50%.

I like William but on this one, he is not right.

I have used nolva only with aromasin, and did not get the responce during the PCT for recovery.

Now to be fair here, both are used together and I believe it was bigCat that suggested teh GnRH responce between clomid and nolva.

But, when clomid and nolva are used together, the pituitary does not down regulate the GnRH receptors.

So, with that said, that isnt an issue.

Williams studies are out of date, below are some other ones that suggest clomid works well for what it does.

Again, I used both, nolva is totally crap for recovery with that only, speaking from personal experiance.


----------



## hackskii

William quoted this: increased serum testosterone levels to 142% of baseline with 20mg of nolva.

low dose clomid @ 25mg ED beats that by a sizable margin.

Here's a study showing low-dose Clomid therapy (25mg ED) boosts testosterone by 250% in 4-6 weeks:

*Clomiphene citrate effects on testosterone/estrogen ratio in male hypogonadism*, Shabsigh A, Kang Y, Shabsign R, Gonzalez M, Liberson G, Fisch H, Goluboff E. Department of Urology, NY Presbyterian Medical Center, New York, NY, USA. J Sex Med. 2005 Sep;2(5):716-21.

AIM: Symptomatic late-onset hypogonadism is associated not only with a decline in serum testosterone, but also with a rise in serum estradiol. These endocrine changes negatively affect libido, sexual function, mood, behavior, lean body mass, and bone density. Currently, the most common treatment is exogenous testosterone therapy. This treatment can be associated with skin irritation, gynecomastia, nipple tenderness, testicular atrophy, and decline in sperm counts. In this study we investigated the efficacy of clomiphene citrate in the treatment of hypogonadism with the objectives of raising endogenous serum testosterone (T) and improving the testosterone/estrogen (T/E) ratio. METHODS: Our cohort consisted of 36 Caucasian men with hypogonadism defined as serum testosterone level less than 300 ng/dL. Each patient was treated with a daily dose of 25 mg clomiphene citrate and followed prospectively. Analysis of baseline and follow-up serum levels of testosterone and estradiol levels were performed.

RESULTS: The mean age was 39 years, and the mean pretreatment testosterone and estrogen levels were *247.6 +/- 39.8 ng/dL *and 32.3 +/- 10.9, respectively. *By the first follow-up visit (4-6 weeks), the mean testosterone level rose to 610.0 +/- 178.6 ng/dL (P < 0.00001). Moreover, the T/E ratio improved from 8.7 to 14.2 (P < 0.001). *There were no side effects reported by the patients.

CONCLUSIONS: *Low dose clomiphene citrate is effective in elevating serum testosterone levels and improving the testosterone/estradiol ratio in men with hypogonadism*.This therapy represents an alternative to testosterone therapy by stimulating the endogenous androgen production pathway.

Study showing a hypogonadic 30-year old male, suffering permanent shutdown from steroid abuse, fully recovered natural hormone levels and HPTA function from 2 months of 100mg Clomid therapy:

*Use of clomiphene citrate to reverse premature andropause secondary to steroid abuse*, Tan RS, Vasudevan D.

Department of Family and Community Medicine, University of Texas Health Sciences Center, Houston, Texas 77030, USA.

OBJECTIVE: To report a case of symptomatic hypogonadism induced by the abuse of multiple steroid preparations that was subsequently reversed by clomiphene. DESIGN: Case report. SETTING: University-affiliated andrology practice within family practice clinic. PATIENT(S): A 30-year-old male.

INTERVENTION(S): Clomiphene citrate, 100-mg challenge for 5 days, followed by treatment at same dose for 2 months.

MAIN OUTCOME MEASURE(S): Clinical symptoms, androgen decline in aging male questionnaire, total T, FSH, LH.

RESULT(S): *Reversal of symptoms, normalization of T levels with LH surge, restoration of pituitary-gonadal axis*.

CONCLUSION(S): Clomiphene citrate is used typically in helping to restore fertility in females. This represents the *first case report of the successful use of clomiphene to restore T levels and the pituitary-gonadal axis in a male patient. The axis was previously shut off with multiple anabolic steroid abuse.*

This one is over double William's Study he used:

Here's another study showing only 7 days of Clomid therapy increased total testosterone by 100% and, more importantly, free testosterone by over 300% in young men:

*The effects of aging in normal men on bioavailable testosterone and luteinizing hormone secretion: response to clomiphene citrate*, J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 1987 Dec;65(6):1118-26.

Geriatric Research, Education, and Clinical Center, Veterans Administration Medical Center, Seattle, Washington.

Serum testosterone (T) levels in men decline with age while serum LH levels, as measured by RIA, increase. To assess if the decline in serum T levels in healthy aging men is paralleled by an age-related decline in the bioavailable non-sex hormone-binding globulin (SHBG)-bound fraction of T and to determine whether there are age-related changes in LH secretion or LH control of T production, we studied 29 young (aged 22-35 yr) and 26 elderly (aged 65-84 yr) healthy men. All men had single random blood samples drawn, and 14 men in each age group underwent frequent blood sampling for 24 h, both before and after *7 days of clomiphene citrate (CC) administration.* Both mean 24-h serum total T levels and non-SHBG-bound T were reduced in elderly men compared to those in young men (P less than 0.05), while estradiol and SHBG levels were similar in the 2 age groups. Serum FSH determined by RIA and LH by RIA and bioassay were higher in the elderly men compared to those in young men (P less than 0.05), but the ratios of LH bioactivity to immunoreactivity and the LH pulse frequency and amplitude were similar. *After CC administration, mean serum total T and non-SHBG-bound levels in young men increased by 100% and 304%*, respectively, while in older men these values increased by only 32% and 8%, respectively. However, CC-stimulated LH pulse characteristics and serum levels of estradiol, SHBG, FSH, and bioactive and immunoreactive LH were similar in the 2 groups. Thus, both at baseline and after CC stimulation, elderly men had significantly lower serum total T and non-SHBG-bound (bioavailable) T levels than did young men, despite similar or increased levels of bioactive LH and similar bioactive to immunoreactive LH ratios and LH pulse characteristics. These results suggest that major age-related changes in the hypothalamic-pituitary-testicular axis occur at the level of the testes and are manifested by decreased responsiveness to bioactive LH. Administration of CC to young and elderly men resulted in similar changes in LH pulse characteristics and LH bioactivity and immunoreactivity, suggesting preserved hypothalamic-pituitary responsiveness in the elderly.

So, you can see clomid smokes nolva, and again used together no downregulation of the GnRH receptors.

Again, endo doctors use clomid to determine if one is secondary hypogonadism, not nolva, but clomid, not AI's, but clomid.


----------



## hackskii

Perfect Animal said:


> Today Im after 7 HCG shots.
> 
> Im using 100mg Clomid and 20mg Nolva every evening. Its impossible for me to use Clomid every 12hours - I have problems with seeing.
> 
> I feel fine, my balls are getting normal, but I feel that my test level is still weak. Or Im used to be ON, and my current libido is normal.


7 days on clomid @ 100mg you have vision problems?


----------



## Suitelf11

Big Cat also advocates Nolvadex. I guess they're both alright? :tongue:


----------



## hackskii

Suitelf11 said:


> Big Cat also advocates Nolvadex. I guess they're both alright? :tongue:


No, they are both wrong. :whistling:

That was an old article by William, and I do believe he has moved his position from that.

Clomid works very well for what it does.

Anthony Roberts suggested a nolva, aromasin PCT, and that one went up in flames.


----------



## God

hackskii said:


> 7 days on clomid @ 100mg you have vision problems?


Possible I think. I noticed vision problems after just a couple of days.


----------



## hackskii

God said:


> Possible I think. I noticed vision problems after just a couple of days.


Mate, that has more to do with ocular toxicity than anything else, and that would take some time.

Why it effects your vision so fast is probably a sensitivity to clomid issue.

Some guys don't fair well on clomid, sadly as it is the best for what it does.


----------



## God

hackskii said:


> *Mate, that has more to do with ocular toxicity than anything else, and that would take some time.*
> 
> Why it effects your vision so fast is probably a sensitivity to clomid issue.
> 
> Some guys don't fair well on clomid, sadly as it is the best for what it does.


Could you explain in laymans terms what you mean (bold bit)?

I didn't get any depression type issues, just eyesight which went off around 1 week after I stopped the last tablet so I will be using it again.


----------



## hashmo

hackskii,

Do you think for people who experience too many negative sides from nolva+clomid that perhaps toremifene citrate might be an alternative on this pct. (maybe 120mg/day for the first two weeks alongside the HCG shots then 60mg/day of toremifene alone for the remaining four weeks)?

I think I remember seeing a post of yours from a while ago where you said you were gonna try torem, wondering what you thought.


----------



## 576

hackskii said:


> I have seen his article on this but endo doctors do not use nolva for diagnosing secondary aquired hypogonadism, they use clomid.
> 
> Clomid @ 100mg ED from 5 to 7 days doubles LH output and increases FSH by 20% to 50%.
> 
> I like William but on this one, he is not right.
> 
> I have used nolva only with aromasin, and did not get the responce during the PCT for recovery.
> 
> Now to be fair here, both are used together and I believe it was bigCat that suggested teh GnRH responce between clomid and nolva.
> 
> But, when clomid and nolva are used together, the pituitary does not down regulate the GnRH receptors.
> 
> So, with that said, that isnt an issue.
> 
> Williams studies are out of date, below are some other ones that suggest clomid works well for what it does.
> 
> Again, I used both, nolva is totally crap for recovery with that only, speaking from personal experience.


"Again, I used both, nolva is totally crap for recovery with that only, speaking from personal experience."

Right, everyone's different, but if you didn't get any blood work done though the effects you got from one to the other could be pseudo or just different because of the difference in the cycle you ran pre pct. Not to mention nobody pct's for 7-10 days so that has nothing to do with Clomid's effectiveness for pct since the effects mentioned in the article would reduce it's effectiveness later.

Also, the pharmaceutical companies promote their drug for the purpose they designed it for, but the reason it's suggested uses is different from Nolva could be so it isn't in direct competition with Nolva for that treatment, such tactics are used in sales all the time. So what the doc. prescribes doesn't necessarily convince me it's better especially when their is evidence to the contrary. If they worked so well together you would think the docs would use it that way too...

So with all things considered, cheaper cost per pct episode, doesn't shut you down and lower doses I would have to go with the Nolva like ole boy said.


----------



## hackskii

God said:


> Could you explain in laymans terms what you mean (bold bit)?
> 
> I didn't get any depression type issues, just eyesight which went off around 1 week after I stopped the last tablet so I will be using it again.


It would be something like a hang over for your eyes:lol:

It builds up.



hashmo said:


> hackskii,
> 
> Do you think for people who experience too many negative sides from nolva+clomid that perhaps toremifene citrate might be an alternative on this pct. (maybe 120mg/day for the first two weeks alongside the HCG shots then 60mg/day of toremifene alone for the remaining four weeks)?
> 
> I think I remember seeing a post of yours from a while ago where you said you were gonna try torem, wondering what you thought.


I have used tore before, I still have some, but I know what works and I use what works and at the dose that works best.

At the end of week 3 @ 100mg clomid ED, I start to get tracers, they go away after I stop.


----------



## hackskii

ruaidhri said:


> hey hacks, got a few days left of my 8 week winny cycle (my first cycle). I know you warned me it was harsh on cholesterol/lipids but after 5-6 weeks my liver and cholesterol were fine (must be lucky i guess)
> 
> Anyway, I'm going to be doing 4 weeks of rohm pct caps (nolva/clomid/proviron).
> 
> I want to start my next cycle (test only, 500mg pw) as soon as possible after the pct. How long from last winny tab do you think it will be (roughly) for my hpta to recover to an acceptable level? I mean I would like to go back on pretty much straight after pct, but I'm sure you will advise against this!
> 
> I am thinking of running 1000iu's HCG a week for test cycle, good idea?


If you have testicular function then 3 to 6 weeks would be fine.

the HCG you are going to run will be fine.


----------



## hackskii

ruaidhri said:


> Just snipped the following frmo a muscletalk article, saying that hcg is counterproductive in pct and should only be used during cycles. i understand their reasoning for it being counterproductive so i'm interested to hear your opinion:
> 
> "HCG administration post-cycle is common practice among bodybuilders in the belief that it will aid the natural testosterone recovery, but this theory is unfounded and also counterproductive. The rapid rise in both testosterone, and thus oestrogen due to aromatisation, from the administration of HCG causes further inhibition of the HPTA (Hypothalamic/Pituitary/Testicular Axis - feedback loop discussed above); this actually worsens the recovery situation. HCG does not restore the natural testosterone production.
> 
> The typically observed dosing of 2000 to 5000IU every 4 to 5 days causes such an increase in oestrogen levels via aromatisation of the natural testosterone that this has been responsible for many cases of gynecomastia.
> 
> From the above discussion it is clear that HCG is best used during a cycle, either to:
> 
> 1) Avoid testicular atrophy, or
> 
> 2) Rectify the problem of an existing testicular atrophy."


Ok, lets just look at this logically.

First and foremost it is the testicles that are the single biggest factor in recovery hands down.

If the pituitary takes perhaps a couple of weeks to fire up, and the nuts up to 6 months, why in the world would HCG which mimics LH be worse for recovery?

That makes no sense at all.

If the testicles are not functioning, you are going to have a long down time.

If the pituitary sparks back in weeks, taking HCG would only delay recovery at the most 2 weeks.

But in the two weeks time the pituitary takes to come back to live, no testicular stimulation will be happening as the pituitary is shut down.

In essence its like you are still on gear but absense of any adrogens.

HCG does work well during a cycle, it is an LH analog which mimics LH and even in light of exogenous testosterone, endogenous production still happens with HCG.

So, while the pituitary is still shut down from the use of exo gear, testicular function can still be achievable even in a cycle.

So, yah it makes sense.

But for a guy that is shut down, and decides to not use HCG because he is told it will take longer to recover, is a fool.

There are other things going on with HCG besides testicular function, it allows more raw materials to help recovery of the testicles.

Sorry, but that article is going to hurt more guys than help.


----------



## hackskii

576 said:


> "Again, I used both, nolva is totally crap for recovery with that only, speaking from personal experience."
> 
> Right, everyone's different, but if you didn't get any blood work done though the effects you got from one to the other could be pseudo or just different because of the difference in the cycle you ran pre pct. Not to mention nobody pct's for 7-10 days so that has nothing to do with Clomid's effectiveness for pct since the effects mentioned in the article would reduce it's effectiveness later.
> 
> Also, the pharmaceutical companies promote their drug for the purpose they designed it for, but the reason it's suggested uses is different from Nolva could be so it isn't in direct competition with Nolva for that treatment, such tactics are used in sales all the time. So what the doc. prescribes doesn't necessarily convince me it's better especially when their is evidence to the contrary. If they worked so well together you would think the docs would use it that way too...
> 
> So with all things considered, cheaper cost per pct episode, doesn't shut you down and lower doses I would have to go with the Nolva like ole boy said.


lol

The 5 to 7 days suggestion was to prove how effective clomid works on the pituitary, not to suggest a PCT is that short.

You missed the point entirely.

First of all, the studies show clomid to be twice as effective at stimulating LH from the pituitary than nolva.

Pseudo?

Hardly, morning wood, night time erections, libido is a great guage to suggest one works and one does not.

Nolva does not work better, and I have yet to find one person that has used nolva alone (I have) that suggested it worked better than clomid.

Why do fertility doctors perscribe clomid to men and not nolva?

Answer, because nolva wont do what clomid does.

Why do endo doctors use clomid to detrmine if one is secondary hypogonadism and not nolva?

Because clomid works.

Why do the studies suggest clomid works twice as good as nolva, if nolva is better?

From personal use, nolva is crap alone in PCT, yet I find clomid to work well with me and very tollerable.

Old school:lol:


----------



## hackskii

What does my doctor friend have to say about it?



Michael Scally MD said:


> The administration of antiestrogens is a common treatment because anti estrogens interfere with the normal negative feedback of sex steroids at hypothalamic and pituitary levels in order to increase endogenous gonadotropin-releasing hormone secretion from the hypothalamus and FSH and LH secretion directly from the pituitary. In turn, FSH and LH stimulate Leydig cells in the testes, and this has been claimed to lead to increased local testosterone production, thereby boosting spermatogenesis with a possible improvement in fertility. There may also be a direct effect of antiestrogens on testicular spermatogenesis or steroidogenesis.
> 
> Clomiphene is a synthetic derivative an estrogen. *Clomid is a mixed agonist/antagonist for the estradiol receptor. Tamoxifen is a pure estradiol receptor antagonist. Clomid acts as an estrogen, rather than an antiestrogen, by sensitizing pituitary cells to the action of GnRH. Although tamoxifen is almost as effective as Clomid in binding to pituitary estrogen receptors, tamoxifen has little or no estrogenic activity in terms of its ability to enhance the GnRH-stimulated release of LH. The estrogenic action of Clomid at the pituitary represents a unique feature of this compound and that tamoxifen may be devoid of estrogenic activity at the pituitary level.*
> 
> Perusal of the literature thus indicates that clomiphene acts in several ways in the human male; (a) due to its similarity of structure to stilbesterol it binds with receptor sites in the hypothalamus and pituitary, ( B) It stimulates gonadotrophin secretion by acting on the hypothalamo-hypophyseal system, © the inhibitory effects of high levels of circulating estrogens (produced under the influence of clomiphene) on hypothalamo-hypophyseal axis are possibly prevented by its potent antiestrogenic behaviour. The result of these varied effects of clomiphene is an overall increase in gonadotrophin and estrogen secretion and accounts for their increase under clinical conditions.
> 
> In one study the administration of tamoxifen, 20 mg/day for 10 days, to normal males produced a moderate increase in luteinizing hormone (LH), follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH), testosterone, and estradiol levels, comparable to the effect of 150 mg of clomiphene citrate (Clomid). Treatment of patients with "idiopathic" oligospermia for 6 to 9 months resulted in a significant increase in gonadotropin, testosterone, and estradiol levels.
> 
> Cochran database summary showed ten studies involving 738 men were included. Five of the trials did not specify method of randomization. Antiestrogens had a positive effect on endocrinal outcomes, such as serum testosterone levels. Antiestrogens appear to have a beneficial effect on endocrinal outcomes, but there is not enough evidence to evaluate the use of antiestrogens for increasing the fertility of males with idiopathic oligo-asthenospermia.
> 
> In the over one-thousand patiemts I have treated for HPTA normalization after AAS cessation i have used the combination of clomiphene citrate and tamoxifen. I have used clomiphene citrate alone in many cases. I added tamoxifen to the protocol to see if I could get a better clinical response. This seemed to be the case although I have not had the opportunity to evaluate the data. When both compounds are used the clomiphene citrate is discontinued first and the tamozifen is continued for 2 more weeks. as I stated in the post on hCG injections it is imperative to be tested while on the medications. thus one would be tested ~3-5 days before the tamoxifen expires. In the 1st stage described in the hCG post one tests for testosterone only. the serum T level determines whether or not the hCG is halted. In the typical situation the hCG is stopped and the CC & tamoxifen continued. the lab tests at the end of the oral meds is LH & T.
> 
> I hope this is of some assistance.
> 
> Peace.
> 
> Mike


----------



## hackskii

Clomid and E2 "priming" in rat pituitary cells...

Disparate effect of clomiphene and tamoxifen on pituitary gonadotropin release in vitro

E. Y. Adashi, A. J. Hsueh, T. H. Bambino and S. S. Yen

The direct effects of clomiphene citrate (Clomid), tamoxifen, and estradiol (E2) on the gonadotropin-releasing hormone (GnRH)-stimulated release of luteinizing hormone (LH) and follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH) were studied in cultured anterior pituitary cells obtained from adult ovariectomized rats. Treatment of pituitary cells with Clomid or enclomid (10(-8) M) in vitro for 2 days resulted in a marked sensitization of the gonadotroph to GnRH as reflected by a 6.5-fold decrease in the ED50 of GnRH in terms of LH release from 2.2 x 10(-9) M in untreated cells to 3.6 x 10(-10) M. Treatment with E2 or Clomid also increased the sensitivity of the gonadotroph to GnRH in terms of FSH release by 4.3- and 3.3-fold respectively. Tamoxifen, a related antiestrogen, comparable to Clomid in terms of its ability to compete with E2 for pituitary estrogen receptors, was without effect on the GnRH-stimulated LH release at a concentration of 10(-7) M. Furthermore, tamoxifen, unlike Clomid, caused an apparent but not statistically significant inhibition of the sensitizing effect of E2 on the GnRH-stimulated release of LH. Our findings suggest that Clomid and its Enclomid isomer, unlike tamoxifen, exert a direct estrogenic rather than an antiestrogenic effect on cultured pituitary cells by enhancing the GnRH-stimulated release of gonadotropin. "


----------



## hackskii

ruaidhri said:


> thanks for clearing that up hacks
> 
> i thought the article was wrong i just didn't know why
> 
> you said if i have testicular function, how will in know if i do lol :confused1:
> 
> my balls have shrunk a tiny bit maybe after 8 weeks winny but not much at all. start pct on tuesday


Leydig cell size only amounts to about 10% of testicular size, so the size of the nuts are not the best indication of their testicular function.

Ironically on another big board this topic is being debated.

Some good information on both sides on clomid vs nolva.

Thanks 576 for challenging me to help me dig deeper and learn more about it.

I have been reading so much my eyes are numb, at least I am at work:lol:


----------



## hackskii

Michael Scally MD said:


> In the beginning of my treatment of AIH, I had to research the literature high and how to determine what might restore the HPTA. In marked contrast to the armchair opinions I read, I had the solemn and real obligation to cure the patient, if possible. The complete lack or absence of any studies on HPTA restoration secondary to AAS was eye opening. For most physicians, even to this day, the standard of care is to ?do nothing? or ?watchful waiting.? It was my decision for a number of reasons, primarily the patient?s health & welfare, to develop a successful protocol to treat AIH. [Note: It was my stance to care for illicit AAS users, which led to my revocation.]
> 
> The administration of SERMs is a common treatment in attempts to restore the HPTA because they increase LH secretion from the pituitary that leads to increased local testosterone production (1). Most notably, Guay has used clomiphene citrate as therapy for erection dysfunction and secondary hypogonadism.
> 
> I initially used clomiphene for AIH with fair success. As the post above states, I suspected that the problem lie in the fact that clomiphene is a mixed agonist/antagonist. Clomiphene citrate is a selective estrogen receptor modulator (SERM) approved in 1967 for the treatment of female infertility. Clomiphene citrate tablets USP is a mixture of two geometric isomers [cis (zuclomiphene ? 38%) and trans (enclomiphene ? 62%)], which have opposite effects upon the estradiol receptor (2). Enclomiphene is an estradiol antagonist, while zuclomiphene is an estradiol agonist. Prior to this, I did try to use tamoxifen alone with fair success.
> 
> The addition of tamoxifen to clomiphene might be expected to increase the overall antagonism of the estradiol receptor. It is for this reason that I added the tamoxifen ? to counter the agonist effect of clomiphene. I reported on my experience within major medical conferences and in the peer reviewed literature. [Note: A quick read of the reports demonstrate the change in the protocol.]
> 
> I readily admit that well-controlled trials still need to be done. [For many, they are aware regarding my current endeavors for this goal. I am drawing closer to this achievement. As far as I know, I am the only physician working to bring proper medical care to AAS users, both prescription and nonprescription.] For all of the talk about which is better, the evidence is not there. The bottom line is the AAS user needs to check HPTA status after stopping!
> 
> (1) Gooren LJ, Van der Veen EA, van Kessel H, Harmsen-Louman W. Estrogens in the feedback regulation of gonadotropin secretion in men: effects of administration of estrogen to agonadal subjects and the antiestrogen tamoxifen and the aromatase inhibitor d1-testolactone to eugonadal subjects. Andrologia 1984;16:568 ?77. Guay AT, Jacobson J, Perez JB, Hodge MB, Velasquez E. Clomiphene increases free testosterone levels in men with both secondary hypogonadism and erectile dysfunction: who does and does not benefit? Int J Impot Res 2003;15:156-65.
> 
> (2) Turner RT, Evans GL, Sluka JP, et al. Differential responses of estrogen target tissues in rats including bone to clomiphene, enclomiphene, and zuclomiphene. Endocrinology 1998;139(9):3712-20.
> 
> (3) Scally MC, Kovacs JA, Gathe JC, Hodge AL Uncontrolled Case Study of Medical Treatment for Elimination of Hypogonadism After Androgen Cessation in an HIV+ Male with Secondary Polycythemia treated 2 years Continuously with Testosterone. Endocrine Practice 2003;9(Suppl 1). Vergel N, Hodge AL, Scally MC. HPGA Normalization Protocol After Androgen Treatment. 4th International Workshop on Adverse Drug Reactions and Lipodystrophy in HIV. Antiviral Therapy 2002;7:L53. Scally MC, Street C, Hodge A. Androgen Induced Hypogonadotropic Hypogonadism: Treatment Protocol Involving Combined Drug Therapy. The Endocrine Society 2001 Annual Meeting (Denver, CO) Abstract. Street C, Scally MC. Pharmaceutical Intervention of Anabolic Steroid Induced Hypogonadism - Our Success at Restoration of the HPG Axis. Medicine and Science in Sports and Exercise 2000;32(5)Suppl.


----------



## hackskii

ruaidhri said:


> why then are a lot of bb'ers balls so much smaller than 90% of their potential size? :lol: (not that i've seen this in person or anything :lol: )
> 
> so how do i know when i have normal testicular function after pct? is the only way of knowing getting bloods taken? :confused1:


Remember FSH is out of the picture too, so sperm production makes for the bigger picture I suspect.

I have not read alot about it but many things need to be in place before one can concieve.


----------



## Old but not out

ruaidhri said:


> why then are a lot of bb'ers balls so much smaller than 90% of their potential size? :lol: (not that i've seen this in person or anything :lol: )
> 
> so how do i know when i have normal testicular function after pct? is the only way of knowing getting bloods taken? :confused1:


A large percentage of testicular volume is taken by developing sperm - no FSH and no intra-testicular testosterone means no developing sperm and a significant decrease in testicular volume

Your testicular function can only really be checked by blood tests and sperm counts, you will have an idea of how they are working by libido, sexual function, texture, volume and colour of ejaculate. Ejaculate with no intra-testicular testosterone will also have far less odour than normal ejaculate


----------



## hackskii

ruaidhri said:


> so i should get bloods done and if my lh and fsh levels are in normal range this will indicate (full?) recovery of my hpta?


ruaidhri, LH and FSH are the are chemical hormones that go to the leydig cells to produce testosterone, and the sertoli cells to develop sperm.

Intra-testicular testosterone (ITT) is far higher concintration of testosterone than serum (circulating in the body), I think it is something like 100 times.

LH and FSH is only the snapshot from the pituitary that suggests things are working in the brain to send the signals to the testicles.

The testicles on the other hand can say a diffrent picture.

You can be just fine with LH and FSH yet have the testosterone of a girl.

In this case (not steroid induced), you would be considered primary hypogonadism and would be put on synthetic testosterone as the fix.

If your LH and FSH were low, and you didnt produce testosterone, then you would be considered secondary hypogonadism and would be put on synthetic testosterone for life.

So, primary hypogonadism is with the nuts as secondary hypogonadism is with the pituitary.

Other factors like the hypoghalamus isnt sending GnRH to the pituitary, to allow the pituitary to send LH and FSH to the testicles.

So, full recovery would be LH and FSH within range, testosterone within normal range, and sperm that is healty and can swim fast:lol: :thumb:

Last pert of recovery is sperm, as all things need to be in place for some time for this all to happen (FSH, LH, testosterone, and ITT).

Even then it could take many months and up to a year to be fertile.

Not to mention the potential for adrenal fetigue and a bunch of other stuff (lipids, etc).


----------



## Old but not out

ruaidhri said:


> thanks mate
> 
> hmmm i would rather get bloods done than play a guessing game, but i don't want to fork out loads to get them done privately. especially considering i've only done a winny only cycle, and shouldn't be shutdown badly
> 
> do you know if there's ways to get them done on nhs without telling them you're on aas?
> 
> pretty sure there's been no change in texture, colour and volume. but couldn't say about smell, haven't noticed
> 
> libido has been very poor recently though (last few weeks of 8 week cycle)


I would expect libido to be poor after an 8-week winstrol only cycle. In my experience of winstrol if I come off as soon as libido begins to fall then recovery is very quick (even without PCT)

Go to GP and complain of fatigue, no libido, insomnia, night sweats and erectile problems and he will hopefully recognise these as symptoms of low T and test you. I would come off first and wait a few weeks, in my personal experience you will be fine in 3-4 weeks


----------



## Old but not out

ruaidhri said:


> :thumb: thanks a lot hacks totally get it now.
> 
> to bit in bold: so i would really need bloods done to check fsh, lh test AND fertility tests!! damn that could get pricey!
> 
> and you just scared the sh1t out of me, with the many months - a year bit! if i'm using hcg at 1000 iu's once a week i'm guessing/hoping recovery of fertility should be considerably quicker than that?
> 
> oh, meant to ask. do you think 4 weeks pct (2 rohm caps a day) is overkill for an 8 week winny only cycle? maybe only need 3?
> 
> i complained of low libido before (genuine complaint) and asked whether it could be low test, and he dismissed that straight away cos i had facial hair! next time i'll make sure to get a different doc, and to shave before i go :lol:
> 
> if i get these tests done after every cycle i'd have to get a different doc every time lol, and it will be on my record anyway so guessing the only option is to go private
> 
> i'll do my 4 week pct then wait a couple of weeks then start test cycle  . planned on waiting a full month after pct, but dunno if i'll have the patience lol


Whats the point in running a PCT then? In terms of your long term ability to recover from cycles I would recommend a minimum 3 month break (preferably more) before you cycle again. If you intend cycling again - prior to this then you may as well go straight away. Just remember long cycles, frequent cycles and short breaks between cycles will most likely diminish your ability to recover.


----------



## Old but not out

ruaidhri said:


> but you said you find with winny you recover very quick and don't even need a pct :confused1:
> 
> and ppl say time on equals time off which would be 4 week pct then another 4 weeks off.
> 
> you said i should be fine within 3-4 weeks of coming off now you'er saying there's no point coming off unless you're coming off for at least 3 months, can yous see why i am confused!!??
> 
> and surely a short break with pct is better than no break at all?


But I never said I did not have time off in between, a long time ago when I ran winny - I would do only one course a year of 6-8 weeks. On the odd occasion 2.

You should be fine within a short time - by this I mean testes working - this does not mean that jumping back on straight away won t impact you long term. You need to (for want of a better way to put it) rest your HPTA from steroid use. Use it or lose it applies to many things including you HPTA. You need to give your body a clear run producing LH, FSH, test and maybe even sperm. My point about feeling fine after a short period was just that - you will feel fine. This does not mean your HPTA will be fully functional and it certainly does not mean it is strong enough and robust enough to withstand another "attack" from anabolic steroids without suffering damage.

As to your last point - having a short break with a PCT being better than

no break? I really don t know. I do know though that having a long break is far better long term (for your HPTA) than no or short breaks. I am not a believer in time off = time on. Your time off should be determined by your long term goals. If all you want is to get big/strong/lean then time off has to be minimal and cycles frequent you must then accept at least a small risk of a damaged HPTA and TRT. If your long term goals include maintaining HPTA function then cycles need to be infrequent, short and with longer breaks.


----------



## johnnybhoy23

Old but not out said:


> But I never said I did not have time off in between, a long time ago when I ran winny - I would do only one course a year of 6-8 weeks. On the odd occasion 2.
> 
> You should be fine within a short time - by this I mean testes working - this does not mean that jumping back on straight away won t impact you long term. You need to (for want of a better way to put it) rest your HPTA from steroid use. Use it or lose it applies to many things including you HPTA. You need to give your body a clear run producing LH, FSH, test and maybe even sperm. My point about feeling fine after a short period was just that - you will feel fine. This does not mean your HPTA will be fully functional and it certainly does not mean it is strong enough and robust enough to withstand another "attack" from anabolic steroids without suffering damage.
> 
> As to your last point - having a short break with a PCT being better than
> 
> no break? I really don t know. I do know though that having a long break is far better long term (for your HPTA) than no or short breaks. I am not a believer in time off = time on. Your time off should be determined by your long term goals. If all you want is to get big/strong/lean then time off has to be minimal and cycles frequent you must then accept at least a small risk of a damaged HPTA and TRT. If your long term goals include maintaining HPTA function then cycles need to be infrequent, short and with longer breaks.


would this be less of an issue for someone in their late 30s who already has test levels on the lower end of the scale ie they would never recover fully to what they were in their 20s or is there more to it than simply looking at test levels/testicular function?


----------



## petes

hackskii said:


> I talked to the doc today on the phone and he answered many questions for me in regards to recovery of the HPTA.
> 
> For those of you who don't know what that is it is "Hypothalamus Pituitary Testicular Axis"
> 
> After administration of AAS, you have shutdown of the HPTA. Depending on the meds taken shutdown can be severe and much does depend on the person as well.
> 
> This is the protocol the doc said he used in literally thousands of users with suppressed HPTA.
> 
> First thing, the 500iu a day was not enough to make the testicles do their job, he suggested this was just a waste of time and money.
> 
> He suggests 8 shots of HCG @ 2500iu EOD.
> 
> With this you take 20 mg of nolvadex for 45 days.
> 
> Clomid is also taken but twice a day @ 50mg each dose 12 hours apart.
> 
> The reason for the amounts of HCG (which is the most important part, if the balls don't fire everything else is worthless), is based on his determination to bring the balls back to life, too little wont accomplish this, too much risks damage to the Leydig cells.
> 
> So he basically was saying that you do the HCG and around day 10 of the above protocol, you should get a blood test for testosterone. If it is above 400 or greater then this says the balls will be just fine once you get off the HCG and the Clomid and nolva take over. This will accept the LH that you are putting out to maintain testicular function.
> 
> He used the term like jumping a car. Your battery (Pituitary gland) if low wont start your car (your testicles), if you use another car and jumper cables (HCG) once the car starts your battery (HP part of the HPTA) will keep your car running.
> 
> The clomid by itself he suggested can inhibit either the pituitary or the hypothalamus (can't remember which one) but if taken with nolva this blocks the estrogen receptors so you wont inhibit that.
> 
> So clomid in his protocol is always taken with nolvadex ALWAYS.
> 
> He did mention that sometimes the balls just don't take and then you do the protocol again. He said it was rare that he could not fire up the HPTA.
> 
> He said that beings that I have good size difference (balls), feel good, strength gains, and a greasy face he felt I should have no problems with returning the HPTA.
> 
> Some things he said was tribulis was actually inhibitory on the HPTA, great I wish I found that out after I bought two bottles.
> 
> ZMA, he said if it made me feel good then go for it but it is placebo and the HCG, clomid, nolva was it and all that is needed.
> 
> Talked to him about progesterone and he said never take that if you are a man (the last doc prescribed it to me)
> 
> Sorry aftershock, I forgot to ask him about the GH question he was saying so much I was just trying to listen.
> 
> One thing he did mention (in an article) was that HGH actually helped with the testicular recovery with things and adding that to the Protocol is a good idea and productive.
> 
> Avoid aspirin when on HCG as it kind of ruins the effects.
> 
> He said oxandrolone was suppressive on the HPTA, but Deca and Anadrol were probably the worst in his opinion. I asked him about tren but he had no knowledge as he never used it.
> 
> He did mention that test in itself was not all that suppressive and he has seen guys on 18 months that came off and made a full recovery in 45 days with the above protocol.
> 
> He said one of the best ways was 12 weeks of test, followed by the above protocol, then start another 12 weeks followed by the above protocol with a month off after that then start again.
> 
> He did say that desensitization to HCG took around 2 months, and the dose of 2500 was fine and no damage or desensitization would occur if you followed his protocol.
> 
> There it is.


Hi followed this pct protocol twice now, got bloods done to prove, and it has worked perfectly for me both times! Test levels been higher than normal even 4 weeks after finishing the 45 day protocol. Many thanks :thumb: .

Question; coming to the end of my cycle now, will of been on about 16 weeks test e 125mg e4d and mast e 200mg e4d and also ran 500iu HCG e4d (not done this before).

Balls haven't shrunk that much, should I still use the 2500iu eod or maybe lower it? The last 2 times when I used the 2500iu I carried on making strength gains pretty much all through the pct! Don't want to desensitize to it though. What are your thoughts?


----------



## hackskii

If the stimulation was during the cycle (HCG) then you wont need as much after.

I run the HCG right through the clearance time of the gear when using during, and into the first week of the PCT.

If you do this you wont need the 45 days as much of the PCT has been taken care of by the testicular function you didnt lose during the cycle.


----------



## petes

hackskii said:


> If the stimulation was during the cycle (HCG) then you wont need as much after.
> 
> I run the HCG right through the clearance time of the gear when using during, and into the first week of the PCT.
> 
> If you do this you wont need the 45 days as much of the PCT has been taken care of by the testicular function you didnt lose during the cycle.


Thanks Hacksii, that makes sense. I have a quick question on clearing times.

Have often wondered if clearance times vary with dose administered and length of time administered for. ie, if I was to drop down to 50-100mg of test e a week, would that then reduce the clearance time down to 1 week rather than two for test e? (given that natural test levels sit around 50mg per week)

For the last few years I have always tapered my doses down to 100mg test e/wk at the end of a cycle to avoid crashing hormone levels, stops me feeling the dive. (not sure science backs this up, but deff seems easier on my system) I have then started pct a just a week after last shot.

In your opinion dose this makes sense, or am I talking s**t!


----------



## hackskii

Yes it makes sense, 100mg of lets say cypionate takes about a week to clear, at the end of day 7 you would be a bit flat, day 6 might even be better, or start day 5 so blood levels of the PCT drugs can start to get into the system.

Many guys taper to avoid the crash from spiked androgens to below normal levels.


----------



## Perfect Animal

Hi hackskii,

I have a question for you ;-)

I'm after PCT, made like you told. Yesterday was last day of using clo/nolv.

Today I made a testosterone tests, and result is poor : 9,17 nmol/l, regular norm is 8,64-29,0

I'm 24yo. During PCT I used Proviron 100-150mg/day, and still use it.

What should I do to increase my testosterone level ? Should use sth like T-bomb (mhp) ?


----------



## hackskii

I tried T-bomb 2 and didnt notice anything, nor more libido, no more morning wood, nor nocternal erections.

That stuff isnt cheap either.

Just do a couple more weeks of clomid.

You are within range, it will continue to climb.


----------



## Perfect Animal

Clomid 100mg per day ?

I will go with it 2 weeks more, and than will make another tests.

Thanks bro!

Edit: what about DAA ? works or not ?


----------



## hackskii

Not sure I am day 2 on it, it might take some time, bought 2 100 gram tubs of it.


----------



## Suitelf11

What's DAA?


----------



## Old but not out

hackskii said:


> Not sure I am day 2 on it, it might take some time, bought 2 100 gram tubs of it.


Been a while since I read research but around 6-days to start working (increased not 15% but not sig) and I think day 12 maximum improvement 140% and significant). Significant difference for a least 3-days after dose is stopped. Research link below probably better you check rather than rely on my memory.

http://www.rbej.com/content/7/1/120


----------



## Old but not out

Perfect Animal said:


> Clomid 100mg per day ?
> 
> I will go with it 2 weeks more, and than will make another tests.
> 
> Thanks bro!
> 
> Edit: what about DAA ? works or not ?


Yes it works - see the link in post above


----------



## Perfect Animal

Thanks,

I have also 2 tubs 100g fo DAA, just get a parcel.

But i dont see the serving size - is it 3,12g ? Like in these researches ?

And I heard that can only use it for 4 weeks, and then need to make a break - is it true ?


----------



## Old but not out

Perfect Animal said:


> Thanks,
> 
> I have also 2 tubs 100g fo DAA, just get a parcel.
> 
> But i dont see the serving size - is it 3,12g ? Like in these researches ?
> 
> And I heard that can only use it for 4 weeks, and then need to make a break - is it true ?


No you can use it for longer - it is used for 90-days as a medical method for improving sperm count. In research I have seen 3.12g used, in medical practice 5g for sperm count


----------



## hackskii

I am using just over 3 grams myself, today is day 4 of my experiment.


----------



## Perfect Animal

Ok, I started today.

Will take 5g's per day, and we'll see what is worth.

I'm also using 100-150mg mesterolone per day, and 100mg clomid before bed.


----------



## danny1871436114701

so I am gonna do the POWER PCT like this

2500uis HCG EOD for 8 shots

ROHM PCT CAP for 30 days

Nolva 20mg for last 15 days after the rohm pct caps

Also will do 3 x 100 GHRP and 5 Grams of DAA

I will allows 4 week clearance of my test e jab and continue with VAR and add in prop to start PCT how does this sound


----------



## hackskii

Clomid would be 100mg ED, not sure how much is in the ROHM caps, nolva is doses @ 20mg ED.


----------



## danny1871436114701

hackskii said:


> Clomid would be 100mg ED, not sure how much is in the ROHM caps, nolva is doses @ 20mg ED.


Well the ROHM are apprantly 50mg clomid, 20mg, 25mg proviron in each pill take twice daily, have them already

here great review on them


----------



## hackskii

But 40mg a day is not needed, nor works any better.


----------



## danny1871436114701

hackskii said:


> But 40mg a day is not needed, nor works any better.


I purchased those prior to deciding on a POWER PCT,

so would this be ok to use opposed to spending more monies on seperates, would it make much difference having an extra 20mg nolva

I have 20000ui hcg aswell


----------



## hackskii

I would just pick up a box of clomid, cheap and then you are right where you want to be.

20,000iu is perfect, that is how much I need to recover after a cycle.

Only problem with the nolva would be mild liver tox issues, also tends to elivate SHBG, and blunt some IGF-1, so yah if you can help it stick with the plan.


----------



## danny1871436114701

hackskii said:


> I would just pick up a box of clomid, cheap and then you are right where you want to be.
> 
> 20,000iu is perfect, that is how much I need to recover after a cycle.
> 
> Only problem with the nolva would be mild liver tox issues, also tends to elivate SHBG, and blunt some IGF-1, so yah if you can help it stick with the plan.


cool Thanks, I am also doing GHRP and DAA, would you save DAA for after 45 days or all way thru


----------



## hackskii

Not sure, day 5 and im not noticing anything as of yet, but I hear it takes 12 days so the jury is out on this one from me......

Hell, go grab some sunlight while you are at it.


----------



## danny1871436114701

hackskii said:


> Not sure, day 5 and im not noticing anything as of yet, but I hear it takes 12 days so the jury is out on this one from me......
> 
> Hell, go grab some sunlight while you are at it.


Sunlight LOL, in UK winter, Poliquin Vitd3 excellence and sunbeds instead I think 

on DAA will you do 12 days on 7 days off or just 5g a day for 6 weeks or whatever


----------



## hackskii

Im going to run it at just over 3 grams a day for 200 grams worth, once it is done, I will see how it goes.


----------



## Suitelf11

What's the price of DAA in the UK? It's 30 euro here in Holland, for 100gr.


----------



## danny1871436114701

Suitelf11 said:


> What's the price of DAA in the UK? It's 30 euro here in Holland, for 100gr.


myprotein.co.uk do 250g for £20


----------



## Perfect Animal

I paid 50 euro for 200g's. But I live in the middle of nowhere so... ;-)


----------



## MMN

any updates?


----------



## mwummwum

hi, sorry if this is the wrong place to post, its todo with pct, if there a better place to post could some one possibly link me to it?

would just like to know, is my pct for the cycle i will do ok?

thanks.

Test enanthate @ 250mg per week for 10 weeks (1ml jab twice per week)

30mg Dbol ED for 4 weeks

HCG @ 500iu's once per week until PCT

3 weeks after last jab commence PCT for 4 weeks:

Clomid 100/100/50/50 mg's ED

Nolva 20/20/20/20 mg's ED

again, sorry if in wrong post


----------



## Mars

mwummwum said:


> hi, sorry if this is the wrong place to post, its todo with pct, if there a better place to post could some one possibly link me to it?
> 
> would just like to know, is my pct for the cycle i will do ok?
> 
> thanks.
> 
> Test enanthate @ 250mg per week for 10 weeks (1ml jab twice per week)
> 
> 30mg Dbol ED for 4 weeks
> 
> HCG @ 500iu's once per week until PCT
> 
> 3 weeks after last jab commence PCT for 4 weeks:
> 
> Clomid 100/100/50/50 mg's ED
> 
> Nolva 20/20/20/20 mg's ED
> 
> again, sorry if in wrong post


We have already answered this in the other thread you posted it in mate.


----------



## mwummwum

thanks


----------



## volfan2975577

Moderator - I need help with Doctors orders. I have shutdown my pituitary gland due to taking deca and test cyp. i also took HGH for about 6 months. I did not do any type of PCT and now I am paying the price. Dr. just put me on androgel and said take it for the rest of your life.

I saw your recommendation and was very grateful for your posts on this subject. Not sure if I did right though. I did 8 straight days of 2500IU of HCG at bedtime and clomid twice a day and nolvadex at betime. Still taking Clomid and Novaldex.

On the 11th or 12th day, i had by blood checked and these are the results

Test before 126 Test Now 661

Prolactin before__ Now 3.7

IGF-1 before__ Now 71

LH Before__ Now <.1

FSH Before__ Now .8

This is good about the test but the rest sucks.

Please email me and let me know what you think.

here is my email [email protected]

Thank You


----------



## hackskii

In order for me to properly answer your question I need to ask some questions.

Were you on androgel when you took this test?

Were you on HCG when you took your blood test?


----------



## hackskii

Thanks for the email mate.

All things are in order and recovery is all but done.

Relax, you are in good hands.......


----------



## Perfect Animal

I have a problem mate.

I end my pct 40 days ago.

Made first blood tests ater 1 day result - 9,17 nmol/l, regular norm is 8,64-29,0

Second made yesterday (so 39 days after pct) result - 6,19 nmol/l, regular norm is 8,64-29,0

In these days I was using clomid 100mg per 14 days, 150mg provi everyday, 5g DAA, and tbomb mhp.

What to do now ? One more time pct ? My balls are looking good, but didn't notice morning wood, or higher libido.

Do you have any ideas hackskii ?


----------



## hackskii

Really doubt those things you are taking like T-bomb, DAA will do much of anything really, or even the proviron.

What I would need though is your LH, and FSH levels.

Probably the higher number just finishing your PCT was because the stimulation from your SERMS was still in your system.

Me personally I would do another PCT but I dont know what you took, for how long and the amounts, so outside of that I am shooting blind and just guessing actually.


----------



## Perfect Animal

Hi mate.

here is copy what I wrote few weeks ago :



> Im using aas for 4-5years, last cycle was ON about 30weeks. Using test,tren,deca,eq,dbol,drol,winny. Ofcourse not everything at same time. Mixing two steroids for 6-8 weeks, and changing it another 2's. Never go above 750mg/week test, 400mg/week tren/eq/deca, 40mg/day winny/dbol, and 100mg/day drol Was using HCG every 6-8weeks, when was changing aas. But never used 2500iu/eod HCG, I was using 1000iu/ed for 10-14 days.
> 
> In the end of cycle I was using test prop, and winny.


I will make lh and fsh tests in this week.


----------



## hackskii

Make sure your tests are early in the morning like 7:00, this will show the most accurate measurement.


----------



## EmporioMani

i have got recovered since one month, but i don't get morning wood.

Is that okie ?


----------



## Perfect Animal

Hackskii - is it possible that my last test result is weak coz of time when test was made ?

Previously I made test about 7:00 in morning, and the second one was made about 3:00 afternoon.


----------



## Mars

Perfect Animal said:


> Hackskii - is it possible that my last test result is weak coz of time when test was made ?
> 
> Previously I made test about 7:00 in morning, and the second one was made about 3:00 afternoon.


I'm sure hacks will agree with me here in that although testosterone secretion is diurnal the secretion of LH is pulsatile ( as many as 6 pulses in 90mins can be secreted from the pituitary but may only last 3-4 minutes) so the range of values is quite broad regardless of the time of day.


----------



## hackskii

But at 3:00 it no doubt can be at bottom end of range and appear low yet you will be fine.

When docs check you they never just give you testosterone if you are low, they will ask you a series of questions to properly diagnose.

At my age 51, not all men get morning wood, or night time erections, some times we do, sometimes we dont.

I generally have somewhat an oily face, when my levels are low (post cycle), my face is dry, no night time wood or morning erections, low libido, difficulty to keep and maintain an erection and difficult to orgasim.

If you have the symptoms of hypogonadism yet are within range they wont give you TRT.

If you are low range, yet dont have the symptoms they wont give you TRT.

Some men just have low test levels.

But this all can mean something else, for instance, high estrogen or low estrogen can cause lidido issues and ED.

So can stress, dopamine, depression, sleep apnea, low fat diets, blood pressure medications, and a ton of stuff.

This is why the ask questions along with blood work as things might be out of order, even elivations in prolactin can cause problems, even thyroid effects Testosterone levels.

If you are going to take a test to determine what is going on you need more than just testosterone, and yes the time of the test can cause a skewed test results.

Even porn elivates LH..... :lol:

When men can ejaculate without out the use of external stimulation (porn, a woman, etc), chances are he is better off than ones that cant ejaculate without external stimulation.

If a man has low testosterone levels and cant climax without using external stimulation then chances are something needs to be looked at a bit more closely.

A full hormonal panel would be a great idea, sadly my doctor wont do all that, just the testosterone.


----------



## petes

I have followed this pct 4 times now and till now had good results. However the last two times I don't think have been as successful. This time it has totally failed for me. Had bloods done at six weeks into pct result was 2.9 total t, LH 1.5 FSH .8

Had retest with docs two weeks on doc phoned me with results so I don't have all the values, but total test was 4 and Both LH and FSH still very low. Doc did say that all the other results were perfect ie. Prolactin thyroid liver kidneys cholesterol etc. Although I've not seen the figures yet. Had tests done for ED which is killing me at mo.

I have started with 100mg clomid and 20mg of tamoxifen again. Had two shots of 1000iu HCG to kick things off. Feeling a little better but still c##p tbh! No wood at all, even 100mg of V isn't raising the old fella.

I am forty in about three months, I would say I am in the best shape I have ever been in in my life. 95kg 5'8" and about 9-10%bf - and want to stay that way! Gym performance is now on a down turn.

I have been using AAS about 10 years with sensible low doses and long breaks in between cycles, but the last few years recovery has got harder, feeling rough as hell while off, loosing weight and strength and totally loosing libido. I am using less gear whilst on also. I am seriously considering TRT.

Thing is I do not take this lightly. I don't know if to self administer, or try and go through the medical channels. I saw an Endo last year he was arrogant, had little knowledge of AAS (from what he said to me) and the protocol he said he used on his patients sounded like a roller coaster nightmare (3 weeks between jabs of enanthate). I think you have to go through an Endo to be prescribed TRT on the nhs here in uk however. My doc is brilliant fortunately, but is obviously tied to her set of rules.

Decision time I guess. I am aware as far as I have researched, the ups and downs of TRT. I have three health kids, so fertility is not an issue.

Should I wait a week or two and see if re running this pct protocol does the bizz, or should I seriously consider a TRT program? Should I self treat and get private bloods and monitoring, or go through nhs?

I'd be grateful of all sensible opinions!

Pete.


----------



## JamesBret

Hi guys, I've been having extreme difficulty fully recovering after three years of cycling 6-8 weeks on with 4 weeks off in between, used fast acting esters, mainly test but also tren, dbol and other stuff. Dose were anywhere from 2000-3500mg weekly, BW 270, 6ft, but had few months off training etc and now down to 220. Blood pressure reading has been low which is unusual for me. Have now been off gear for six months finishing my second pct and still not fully recovered, although testes seem to have reached full size etc, can achieve erection but rarely sustain, been use viagra but now even impossible to sustain with that, it seems. Don't know what else to add here but happy to answer specifics, just looking for some ideas really????????????????????????/


----------



## hackskii

petes said:


> I have followed this pct 4 times now and till now had good results. However the last two times I don't think have been as successful. This time it has totally failed for me. Had bloods done at six weeks into pct result was 2.9 total t, LH 1.5 FSH .8
> 
> Had retest with docs two weeks on doc phoned me with results so I don't have all the values, but total test was 4 and Both LH and FSH still very low. Doc did say that all the other results were perfect ie. Prolactin thyroid liver kidneys cholesterol etc. Although I've not seen the figures yet. Had tests done for ED which is killing me at mo.
> 
> I have started with 100mg clomid and 20mg of tamoxifen again. Had two shots of 1000iu HCG to kick things off. Feeling a little better but still c##p tbh! No wood at all, even 100mg of V isn't raising the old fella.
> 
> I am forty in about three months, I would say I am in the best shape I have ever been in in my life. 95kg 5'8" and about 9-10%bf - and want to stay that way! Gym performance is now on a down turn.
> 
> I have been using AAS about 10 years with sensible low doses and long breaks in between cycles, but the last few years recovery has got harder, feeling rough as hell while off, loosing weight and strength and totally loosing libido. I am using less gear whilst on also. I am seriously considering TRT.
> 
> Thing is I do not take this lightly. I don't know if to self administer, or try and go through the medical channels. I saw an Endo last year he was arrogant, had little knowledge of AAS (from what he said to me) and the protocol he said he used on his patients sounded like a roller coaster nightmare (3 weeks between jabs of enanthate). I think you have to go through an Endo to be prescribed TRT on the nhs here in uk however. My doc is brilliant fortunately, but is obviously tied to her set of rules.
> 
> Decision time I guess. I am aware as far as I have researched, the ups and downs of TRT. I have three health kids, so fertility is not an issue.
> 
> Should I wait a week or two and see if re running this pct protocol does the bizz, or should I seriously consider a TRT program? Should I self treat and get private bloods and monitoring, or go through nhs?
> 
> I'd be grateful of all sensible opinions!
> 
> Pete.


Well, it appears your nuts are still not firing yet your FSH and LH are low as well.

But many factors here affect recovery like, time on, what gear was used, how much was used, and how hard it is for you to recover, and age.

Can you tell me how long you were on?

What you used in your cycle and amounts?

When did you start your PCT (how many days from last jab)?

How long has it been from your last jab?

Your PCT in amounts of all the PCT drugs?



JamesBret said:


> Hi guys, I've been having extreme difficulty fully recovering after three years of cycling 6-8 weeks on with 4 weeks off in between, used fast acting esters, mainly test but also tren, dbol and other stuff. Dose were anywhere from 2000-3500mg weekly, BW 270, 6ft, but had few months off training etc and now down to 220. Blood pressure reading has been low which is unusual for me. Have now been off gear for six months finishing my second pct and still not fully recovered, although testes seem to have reached full size etc, can achieve erection but rarely sustain, been use viagra but now even impossible to sustain with that, it seems. Don't know what else to add here but happy to answer specifics, just looking for some ideas really????????????????????????/


Thats alot of gear using grams wont clear in the 4 week time unless it was something fast like orals or propionate.

Sounds like your nuts are not really firing on all cylinder's, how much HCG did you use?

Same questions as the other poster would give a much bigger picture as well.


----------



## petes

hackskii said:


> Well, it appears your nuts are still not firing yet your FSH and LH are low as well.
> 
> But many factors here affect recovery like, time on, what gear was used, how much was used, and how hard it is for you to recover, and age.
> 
> Can you tell me how long you were on?
> 
> What you used in your cycle and amounts?
> 
> When did you start your PCT (how many days from last jab)?
> 
> How long has it been from your last jab?
> 
> Your PCT in amounts of all the PCT drugs?
> 
> Thats alot of gear using grams wont clear in the 4 week time unless it was something fast like orals or propionate.
> 
> Sounds like your nuts are not really firing on all cylinder's, how much HCG did you use?
> 
> Same questions as the other poster would give a much bigger picture as
> 
> well.


Thanks for your reply Hackskii,

Last jab was 8th October was using 125 mg test enanthate and 200mg masteron enanthate along with 500iu hcg shots every 4 days. Cycle approx 14weeks. Last two shots were 100mg test enanthate only every week and 500iu HCG e4days started pct 10 days after last shot. Did six shots of 1000iu HCG along with 100mg clomid for 30 days and 20mg tamoxifen for 37 days. Bloods were taken at 48 days.

Never had blood work after cycle prior to this one. I was off 20 weeks before this last cycle, suspect my test was low before I went back on.

Due another test next week


----------



## JamesBret

waited weeks for last jabs to clear, last cycle was only 900mg test weekly, did 10 shots of 2500iu hcg every other day post cycle and used 100mg clomid and 20 mg tamoxifen as per the suggested protocol, feel I may have recovered but then did another pct with aromasin and tamoxifen and clomid, and have been using these for past 3-4 months really, read something about having low estradiol interefering with things down there as much as high and I think this could be a plausible hypothesis.

What do you think, as problems have got worse recently, as I have continued to use these anti-estrogen meds


----------



## hackskii

petes said:


> Thanks for your reply Hackskii,
> 
> Last jab was 8th October was using 125 mg test enanthate and 200mg masteron enanthate along with 500iu hcg shots every 4 days. Cycle approx 14weeks. Last two shots were 100mg test enanthate only every week and 500iu HCG e4days started pct 10 days after last shot. Did six shots of 1000iu HCG along with 100mg clomid for 30 days and 20mg tamoxifen for 37 days. Bloods were taken at 48 days.
> 
> Never had blood work after cycle prior to this one. I was off 20 weeks before this last cycle, suspect my test was low before I went back on.
> 
> Due another test next week


Lets wait for the next test to see what is hapening.



JamesBret said:


> waited weeks for last jabs to clear, last cycle was only 900mg test weekly, did 10 shots of 2500iu hcg every other day post cycle and used 100mg clomid and 20 mg tamoxifen as per the suggested protocol, feel I may have recovered but then did another pct with aromasin and tamoxifen and clomid, and have been using these for past 3-4 months really, read something about having low estradiol interefering with things down there as much as high and I think this could be a plausible hypothesis.
> 
> What do you think, as problems have got worse recently, as I have continued to use these anti-estrogen meds


 Driving estrogen too low just might cause libido and erection problems.

That is something I would not want to do.

I personally would drop all meds and see how you felt in a week or so.


----------



## LOCUST

Hacks, i hope you can help mate, i did a long pre comp cycle and done a long test taper style pct and was using hcg 250iu mon/thur all the way through, my pct lasted 10 weeks and finished a month ago.

im haveing serious libido issues, which makes me think i havent recoverd properly, is it a bit early to concider repeating my pct ? im currently using zma x 2 a day and DAA which has done nothing imo.

i can give you full details of the pct if you wish.

hope you can help mate ive just got married lol and the wife is srating to stress haha


----------



## hackskii

Sounds to me like your nuts are still not working.

I personally would run more HCG and another PCT using SERMS.

250 twice a week is weak IMO, not enough stimulation to bring the boys around.

That probably isnt enough for a long pre-comp cycle to avoid testicular atrophy yet along bring them back from the dead.


----------



## LOCUST

Thanks hacks, can you advise onhcg dosages as like you a large shot of hcg would give me tits by the morning,

should i run the pct you have on this thread ?

i do occasilnally get as of this week wood in the night or morning, but not regular and hard to sustain..

thanks again


----------



## hackskii

That is because HCG causes massive aromitization.

Nolva and clomid together would be run with the big doses of HCG, so no worries about the tits.

20mg nolva ED also protects from the desintization issues with the leydig cells.

So, you would run around 8 shots EOD of HCG @ 1000 to 2500iu along with 100mg clomid ED and 20mg nolva ED.

The clomid should be run about two weeks past last jab of the HCG, and the nolva about two weeks past that.

Problem is the nuts are not responding, you need to prioritize getting those up to speed first.


----------



## Mars

Isn't it true that nolva protects the leydig cells from desensitization from hCG because if you take tamoxifen with hCG it inhibits steroidogenesis in the testes which then of course inhibits the production of pregnenolone which of course will then not allow synthesization of testosterone to occur?

If so it would be absolutely pointless taking hCG in the first place.


----------



## hackskii

Not sure mars, HCG even with nolva can elivate testosterone to within range even if one was primary hypogonadism (from steroids).

HCG by itself can elivate testosterone above base levels, nolva can as well.

The doc suggests taking a blood test to determine when to stop the HCG by checking serum testosterone. Once the levels are within range you discontinue the HCG and continue with the SERMS.

I do believe it has more to do with heavy aromitization (estrogen) then Pregnenolone.

Here is Dr. Johns snip on HCG here:http://www.allthingsmale.com/word_docs/HCGupdate.doc

But there's another metabolic reason to employ this protocol. The P450 Side Chain Cleavage enzyme, which converts CHOL into pregnenolone at the initiation of all three metabolic pathways CHOL serves as precursor (the sex hormones, glucocorticoids and mineralcorticoids), is actively stimulated, or depressed, by LH concentrations. It is intuitively consistent that during conditions of lowered testosterone levels, commensurate increases in LH production would serve to stimulate this conversion from CHOL into these pathways, thereby feeding more raw material for increased hormone production. And vice versa. Thus the addition of HCG (which also stimulates the P450scc enzyme) helps restore a more natural balance of the hormones within this pathway in patients who are entirely, or even partially, HPTA-suppressed.

It is important that no more than 500IU of HCG be administered on any given day. There is only just so much stimulation possible, and exceeding that not only is wasteful, doing so has important negative consequences. Higher doses overly stimulate testicular aromatase, which inappropriately raises estrogen levels, and brings on the detrimental effects of same. It also causes Leydig cell desentization to LH, and we are therefore inducing primary hypogonadism while perhaps treating secondary hypogonadism. 250IU QD is an effective, and safe, dose. After all, we are merely replacing that which is lost to inhibition.

I dont think nolva would inhibit pregnenolone, if it did then the above levels of serum testosterone that nolvadex gives would not happen.

A cool chart below.

If what you said were true, you would not be able to make any hormones.


----------



## LOCUST

Thanks mate, i started last night on 1000iu hcg eod for 8 shots and the serms youhave outlined.

lets see what happens.


----------



## Mars

I understand what your saying Scott.

I have been doing some research and i'm just unsure whether i am interpreting it correctly.

Various studies state that *triphenylethylene compounds inhibit steroidogenesis at the step before pregnenolone formation at the site of the cholesterol side chain cleavage enzyme complex*.

But then i read that *tamoxifen when taken with hCG does not prevent hCG induced inhibition of testosterone production in testicular leydig cells*.

But then it is shown that *tamoxifen does indeed reduce LH stimulated cyclic AMP formation.*

Present studies show that tamoxifen does have a direct inhibitory effect on testicular steroidogenesis.

In more recent studies it is shown that tamoxifen significantly inhibited pregnenolone induced testosterone formation.

*The most worrying aspect is that **it is shown that tamoxifen inhibits testosterone response to gonadtropin stimulation**.*

*So if i'm reading this right then it's counterproductive to administer tamoxifen with hCG, an AI would be a much better option.*

I'm confused :lol: , what are your thoughts Scott?


----------



## LOCUST

yeah me to as ive just started my repeat pct witt hcg and nolva lol


----------



## drwheyisolate

LOCUST said:


> yeah me to as ive just started my repeat pct witt hcg and nolva lol


locust i am goin through exact same prob as you are

i have been instructed by scott to do same thing

jst quick question do you feel lethargic on nolva? i get this tight feeling in chest


----------



## hackskii

If Pregnenolone was inhibited with the use of nolva, then if this was in fact the case no other sex hormones would be made, as Pregnenolone is converted to all sex hormones.

The docs protocol suggests to get blood work and if serum testosterone was within normal range then you drop the HCG and continue with the HCG.

If nolva inhibited Pregnenolone, which is a precurser to all sex hormones then there would be no elivations in serum testosterone.

Even clomid is part of the triphenylethylene family and that doubles LH output and can elivate FSH by up to 50%.

If that were the case and it inhibited pregnenolone then you would not get the elivations in serum testosterone like it does to help determine if one was secondary hypogonadism.

There is one other thing you might want to look at in regards to using AI's for PCT (which I totally suggest not to do) is estrogen primming.

This is very controvercial as many feel either or (clomid, nolva) can be used and are not needed together to get the desired effects, yet one does some estrogen primming and the other does not.

Driving estrogen down too low when one is very low in androgens wont have an issue with estrogen in the first place because there wont be much aromitization going on due to low testosteone levels.

Now the ratio of T to E might be compromised but AI's also can compromise lipid profiles which are already compromised post cycle.

Nolvadex actually helps lipid profiles when comrpomised with gear post cycle.


----------



## Mars

hackskii said:


> If Pregnenolone was inhibited with the use of nolva, then if this was in fact the case no other sex hormones would be made, as Pregnenolone is converted to all sex hormones.
> 
> The docs protocol suggests to get blood work and if serum testosterone was within normal range then you drop the HCG and continue with the HCG.
> 
> If nolva inhibited Pregnenolone, which is a precurser to all sex hormones then there would be no elivations in serum testosterone.
> 
> Even clomid is part of the triphenylethylene family and that doubles LH output and can elivate FSH by up to 50%.
> 
> If that were the case and it inhibited pregnenolone then you would not get the elivations in serum testosterone like it does to help determine if one was secondary hypogonadism.
> 
> There is one other thing you might want to look at in regards to using AI's for PCT (which I totally suggest not to do) is estrogen primming.
> 
> This is very controvercial as many feel either or (clomid, nolva) can be used and are not needed together to get the desired effects, yet one does some estrogen primming and the other does not.
> 
> Driving estrogen down too low when one is very low in androgens wont have an issue with estrogen in the first place because there wont be much aromitization going on due to low testosteone levels.
> 
> Now the ratio of T to E might be compromised but AI's also can compromise lipid profiles which are already compromised post cycle.
> 
> Nolvadex actually helps lipid profiles when comrpomised with gear post cycle.


I don't know if it does inhibit pregnenolone, what i'm posting is medical literature on oncology and MOA of triphenylyethylenes.

I know clomiphene is a triphenylethylene.

I'm not saying take an AI during PCT.

You haven't actually said anything that i already know or have read of your posts, i know all this Scott, i'm taking it to level 2.

I would like to know how you interpret the medical literature i have posted.

Especially with regard to taking tamoxifen with hCG.

We can read nandi posts re quoted all over the forums that hcg = good and hcg + nolva = better, because of the "tamoxifen blocks hCG induced leydig cell desensitization" medical study, but has he actually interpreted this correctly and in depth? all oncology studies state that there is a reason why this happens, which i posted earlier and was just wondering what your thoughts were.

Basically Scott, (no politician type roundabout answers please :lol: ) given the oncology reports do you think it's a good idea to take tamoxifem with hCG, even though tamoxifen inhibits testosterone response to gonadtropin stimulation?


----------



## Perfect Animal

Hi hackskii!

I made my tests today, and don't know what to do now.

Testosterone 8,98nmol/l (8,64-29)

LH 8,93 mIU/ml (1,7-8,6)

FSH 11,16mIU/ml (1,5-12,4)

Prolactin 12,7ng/ml (2,5-17,0)

What do you think about it ?

Thanks mate


----------



## haza

hi hacksi,i,ve just finished reading the hpta protocol and thought i would ask for your help,im 33 year old,i have finished a course of test 350 at 2ml per week for 12 weeks and winstrol at 50mg for 6 weeks, 3 weeks ltr i done a pct of clomid 50mg and nolv 40mg for 4 weeks,3 mnth after pct i was feeling crap ie no morning wood not interested in sex all the usual probs, i went to my doctor 3 weeks ago to get bloods done and when i got a phone call asking to make an app with my doctor i was shocked as my testosterone came back at 4.6nmol/l i was made an appointment to see an endo the following week which i told endo everything,he done a full check on me and prescribed testogel,i dont really want to go down the trt route if i dont need to, do you think if i do this protocol 15 days hcg 45 days nolvadex and 30 clomid i would have a chance of getting myself back instead of this trt any help would be much appreciated thanks


----------



## haza

forgot to mention the endo has booked a ct scan of the pituarity,will doing this recovery efect the ct scan???and if doing a test only cycle then doing this recovery would be ok???thanks


----------



## hackskii

mars1960 said:


> I don't know if it does inhibit pregnenolone, what i'm posting is medical literature on oncology and MOA of triphenylyethylenes.
> 
> I know clomiphene is a triphenylethylene.
> 
> I'm not saying take an AI during PCT.
> 
> You haven't actually said anything that i already know or have read of your posts, i know all this Scott, i'm taking it to level 2.
> 
> I would like to know how you interpret the medical literature i have posted.
> 
> Especially with regard to taking tamoxifen with hCG.
> 
> We can read nandi posts re quoted all over the forums that hcg = good and hcg + nolva = better, because of the "tamoxifen blocks hCG induced leydig cell desensitization" medical study, but has he actually interpreted this correctly and in depth? all oncology studies state that there is a reason why this happens, which i posted earlier and was just wondering what your thoughts were.
> 
> Basically Scott, (no politician type roundabout answers please :lol: ) given the oncology reports do you think it's a good idea to take tamoxifem with hCG, even though tamoxifen inhibits testosterone response to gonadtropin stimulation?


Oncology is that of something to do with cancer.

And to that, I can not comment nor will, and truth be told does not apply actually.

Sorry brother, but I cant and will not delve into that aspect of this discussion as it does not apply here.

The power PCT does a great job of doing what it is supposed to do and many lads have used it with great results.

HCG and nolva are a great idea.

I think that the heavy aromitization of HCG in the testicular sense is what drives desinsitivity issues, or refined thought would be heavy aromatase activity in the nuts.

I think it as a protective agent and not inhibitory as evidence suggests otherwise from myself and many others.



Perfect Animal said:


> Hi hackskii!
> 
> I made my tests today, and don't know what to do now.
> 
> Testosterone 8,98nmol/l (8,64-29)
> 
> LH 8,93 mIU/ml (1,7-8,6)
> 
> FSH 11,16mIU/ml (1,5-12,4)
> 
> Prolactin 12,7ng/ml (2,5-17,0)
> 
> What do you think about it ?
> 
> Thanks mate


Sounds like to me that your pituitary is hammering yet the nuts are not as responsive as the puitary.

If everything is within range yet your numbers are low then your nuts are on holliday...............



haza said:


> hi hacksi,i,ve just finished reading the hpta protocol and thought i would ask for your help,im 33 year old,i have finished a course of test 350 at 2ml per week for 12 weeks and winstrol at 50mg for 6 weeks, 3 weeks ltr i done a pct of clomid 50mg and nolv 40mg for 4 weeks,3 mnth after pct i was feeling crap ie no morning wood not interested in sex all the usual probs, i went to my doctor 3 weeks ago to get bloods done and when i got a phone call asking to make an app with my doctor i was shocked as my testosterone came back at 4.6nmol/l i was made an appointment to see an endo the following week which i told endo everything,he done a full check on me and prescribed testogel,i dont really want to go down the trt route if i dont need to, do you think if i do this protocol 15 days hcg 45 days nolvadex and 30 clomid i would have a chance of getting myself back instead of this trt any help would be much appreciated thanks


Bump for tomorrow, had a long stressfull day with tons of drama at work.

Many people at work cant get along........



haza said:


> forgot to mention the endo has booked a ct scan of the pituarity,will doing this recovery efect the ct scan???and if doing a test only cycle then doing this recovery would be ok???thanks


Typical for those that are hypogonadal, they try to find the source, if said source is gear and they dont know, this is typical.

Questions tomorrow to allow me to see a bigger picture.


----------



## Perfect Animal

> Sounds like to me that your pituitary is hammering yet the nuts are not as responsive as the puitary.
> 
> If everything is within range yet your numbers are low then your nuts are on holliday...............


So you think that I should use some serms, or/and hcg ?


----------



## haza

hackski or anyone???????


----------



## hackskii

Perfect Animal said:


> So you think that I should use some serms, or/and hcg ?


LH upper end of normal, outside of normal actually and this suggests that your nuts are not so responsive to LH (atrophy).

FSH, upper end of normal.

Testosterone lower end of normal.

This would sugges that testicular atrophy is still there.

Good news is you will recover well as your nuts will produce more due to added stimulation from the pituitary.

Time will tell all and no doubt you will recover......................

Personally you can add some stuff to the mix but you will and sound recover alright but will take time.


----------



## Mars

hackskii said:


> Oncology is that of something to do with cancer.
> 
> And to that, I can not comment nor will, and truth be told does not apply actually.
> 
> Sorry brother, but I cant and will not delve into that aspect of this discussion as it does not apply here.
> 
> The power PCT does a great job of doing what it is supposed to do and many lads have used it with great results.
> 
> HCG and nolva are a great idea.
> 
> I think that the heavy aromitization of HCG in the testicular sense is what drives desinsitivity issues, or refined thought would be heavy aromatase activity in the nuts.
> 
> I think it as a protective agent and not inhibitory as evidence suggests otherwise from myself and many others.


I'm not trying to discredit the nolva/hcg protocol, i just found the report interesting and wanted your opinion.

I'm not sure why you think it doesn't apply (i didn't think it was relevant which medical department carried out the study) but if you feel you cannot comment thats fine mate.


----------



## haza

hackskii any help,advice thats all i,m asking


----------



## hackskii

mars1960 said:


> I'm not trying to discredit the nolva/hcg protocol, i just found the report interesting and wanted your opinion.
> 
> I'm not sure why you think it doesn't apply (i didn't think it was relevant which medical department carried out the study) but if you feel you cannot comment thats fine mate.


I just dont know really, most of the studies on nolva happen to do with women, cancer and not steroids.



haza said:


> hackskii any help,advice thats all i,m asking


Sure..


----------



## haza

it would be much appreciated if any1 would take 2 seconds to read through my posts and give me some feedback,its just i,ve asked for advice of 1 ov the mods with no joy,hes answered others but musnt have the answer for me!!!!


----------



## hackskii

haza said:


> hi hacksi,i,ve just finished reading the hpta protocol and thought i would ask for your help,im 33 year old,i have finished a course of test 350 at 2ml per week for 12 weeks and winstrol at 50mg for 6 weeks, 3 weeks ltr i done a pct of clomid 50mg and nolv 40mg for 4 weeks,3 mnth after pct i was feeling crap ie no morning wood not interested in sex all the usual probs, i went to my doctor 3 weeks ago to get bloods done and when i got a phone call asking to make an app with my doctor i was shocked as my testosterone came back at 4.6nmol/l i was made an appointment to see an endo the following week which i told endo everything,he done a full check on me and prescribed testogel,i dont really want to go down the trt route if i dont need to, do you think if i do this protocol 15 days hcg 45 days nolvadex and 30 clomid i would have a chance of getting myself back instead of this trt any help would be much appreciated thanks


Oh, sorry mate, but to answer your question you will recover with the 45 day recovery with probably no problems at all.



haza said:


> forgot to mention the endo has booked a ct scan of the pituarity,will doing this recovery efect the ct scan???and if doing a test only cycle then doing this recovery would be ok???thanks


The CT scan is to determine if you have a tumor on the pituitary causing you to not produce LH, this is a common practice to rule out the pituitary first.

If the pituitary comes back negative which no doubt it will they will run some more tests to determine if you are primary (testicles) or secondary (pituitary) hypogonadism.

They have a process to determine and this will take months and in the end you dont need all that.

They geve you testosterone based on your blood work (low testosterone) and your no libido, both will direct them to give you some TRT.

But that is for life, you dont need it, and yes you can recover.

At 33 you dont need to be on TRT for life, you are just shut down, thats it.

Sorry for missing your posts.


----------



## haza

Thank you hackskii pal im starting this protocol on monday morning i will keep you informed on my progress


----------



## haza

Hi hackskii i was going to start this protocol last week but never got round to it,but i have a question for you please mate my last jab ov sustanon 250 was 1 week ago,how long will i have to wait before starting it???????help would be much appreciated


----------



## hackskii

Give it another week......


----------



## Guest

Alrite hacksii, I'm due to start a ten week cycle of test e in a few weeks at 600mg per week. My question to you is how long would it take to clear my system so I can start my pct ( nolva/clomid) at the correct time? I'm gonna run hcg throughout the cycle and right upto pct at 500iu a week? I was gonna run adex right upto pct also, maybe even into the first week. Does this sound about right to you?

Cheers mate I know you must be busy


----------



## haza

Hi hacksii mate, just an update on my 45 day protocol which im nearly 4 weeks in to,well i have to say from week 2 i was on top form and getting better all the time,its proved just how bad i really was,i thought i wasnt to bad but as the days sail by im feeling the best i have in years, im waking with morning wood which i havent for a while,feeling horny as feck lol,lots ov energy, no hot flushes, just a feeling ov wellness,i was bad shut down i know now,i really appreciate your help,i just hope when i get my bloods done they are getting higher, as i was 4.6nmol,,i feel better now than when i was on 250mg sus per week, i keep u updated


----------



## hackskii

Big Mike said:


> Alrite hacksii, I'm due to start a ten week cycle of test e in a few weeks at 600mg per week. My question to you is how long would it take to clear my system so I can start my pct ( nolva/clomid) at the correct time? I'm gonna run hcg throughout the cycle and right upto pct at 500iu a week? I was gonna run adex right upto pct also, maybe even into the first week. Does this sound about right to you?
> 
> Cheers mate I know you must be busy


500 twice a week throughout and even at the start of PCT, use an AI throughout as well.

Start your PCT 3 weeks or a tad bit more as it probably wont clear 3 weeks @ 600mg.

Perhaps like 25 days or so.

Drop the adex with the SERMS.


----------



## hackskii

haza said:


> Hi hacksii mate, just an update on my 45 day protocol which im nearly 4 weeks in to,well i have to say from week 2 i was on top form and getting better all the time,its proved just how bad i really was,i thought i wasnt to bad but as the days sail by im feeling the best i have in years, im waking with morning wood which i havent for a while,feeling horny as feck lol,lots ov energy, no hot flushes, just a feeling ov wellness,i was bad shut down i know now,i really appreciate your help,i just hope when i get my bloods done they are getting higher, as i was 4.6nmol,,i feel better now than when i was on 250mg sus per week, i keep u updated


Sounds awesome, glad you are doing so well, probably you wont need to look at blood, you feel well and that is all that really matters in the first place.


----------



## Guest

Cheers mate I'll do it as you've instructed


----------



## Tomo1984

Hi hacks

Please can you provide me with sum good advice!

I've have recently finished the 45 day protocol as ur doc stated! All b it a lower dose hcg than stated!!

I feel great and training is goin well considering im off!! I truly believe I have recovered well!

As ur doc said he would recommend 12 weeks on then the protocol then another 12 wks followed by the same protocol with a month off after!

As a result I would like to follow this method

Therefore would It b considered ok to go back another 12 week test e cycle as previously completed!!

Many thanks


----------



## hackskii

I cant really answer that one, only you can.

I guess it depends on your goals.

But if you use HCG throughout you will fair better for recovery once you are done.


----------



## Tomo1984

Much appreciated Thanks

I will prob start my nx 12 weeks in another 2 weeks time then!

I will also run hcg throughout @ 1000ui per wk!

Ta


----------



## Cowsfortea

I have completed the pct advised here 9 shots of 2500 hcg every other day with 30 days 100mg clomid and 65 days 20mg tamoxifen.

Had bloods taken and all results are fine - LH, FSH, Estradiol, but testosterone is still low. What should I do now, start a another run of pct?

Very concenred


----------



## Cowsfortea

sorry 45 days tamoxifen


----------



## hackskii

Cowsfortea said:


> I have completed the pct advised here 9 shots of 2500 hcg every other day with 30 days 100mg clomid and 65 days 20mg tamoxifen.
> 
> Had bloods taken and all results are fine - LH, FSH, Estradiol, but testosterone is still low. What should I do now, start a another run of pct?
> 
> Very concenred


How low?

By the looks of the FSH and LH, you probably will be fine soon.


----------



## Cowsfortea

hope so, should I continue with the clomid and tamoxifen for the time being? I will get the exact number for testosterone level.

The thing is I felt like I was recovering a couple of weeks back was getting some night time and morning wood but recently have not.

I don't get it


----------



## hackskii

Can I see the bloods with the refrence ranges please?


----------



## Cowsfortea

Have just contacted theo doctors and they've given me the results:

testosterone is 6.7

LH 3.3

FSH 3.8

Estradoil they just said it reported less than 73, which they said was normal but bearing in mind I was on tamoxifen at the time of the test

Cheers for you help mate, I'm pretty concerned


----------



## Cowsfortea

Sorry normal range for testosterone they said was between 10 and 28


----------



## hackskii

What are the refrence ranges for the others?


----------



## Cowsfortea

normal range is between 2 - 18 for LH and FSH,


----------



## hackskii

I would try another three weeks of clomid and 4 weeks nolva.

That will give your LH and FSH a bump and probably the responce on T will elivate closer to normal.

With both of them low, it is probably low LH that is doing that as it is bottom of range, so T will follow.


----------



## Cowsfortea

Okay, I'll that then. Thanks.

No need for another run of HCG then?


----------



## hackskii

Probably not, the clomid will bump LH levels quite high and that will cause a responce from the testicles.


----------



## saekson

Hello Hackskii

I had a 5 months cycle of test e 4 months ago

would you recommend me doing hcg, if i said ive done one pct after cycle for 5 weeks with both Nolva/clomid but i wasnt fully restored?

I have mood swings and a little bit of acne is maybe good sings of higher estrogen

would it hurt to take HCG or should i just do a second pct of nolva/clomid?


----------



## hackskii

That would depend on your blood work numbers.


----------



## bigdro

hackskii,

i ran a Spawn ph cycle(tren/epi clone) and pct'd with only clomid. I have had no libido for a year and thats's the only problem i've had. Can I benefit from this protocol??


----------



## hackskii

Perhaps but why not get some blood tests to confirm that you are hypogonadism?

I think it would be better to get the big picture before you shoot off the hip.

Did you use any drugs like anti-depressant drugs, anti-anxiety drugs, or any DHT inhibiting drugs?


----------



## bigdro

Yes, I've had bloodwork done and the endo claimed everything was in normal healthy range. and that test covered everything from test, igf-1, estro, dht, prolactin, etc. I've been looking for a cure for this problem and i cant seem to find a solution. Im on wellbutrin now because it can have libido boosting effects, but they only seemed to last a couple of days. I felt great when i was on clomid (except a little emotional) and achieved erections easily. I've used Dostinex several months after pct and it did nothing( i know 19-nor compounds are notorious for raising prolactin levels). Im just trying to find a solution b/c im only 20 and this has been horrible! Again my symptoms are only low libido.


----------



## hackskii

Well, the recovery protocol is for hypogonadism and you dont have that.

I hate the designer steroids, some guys get gyno and cant combat it.

I am not sure what would be next.


----------



## bigdro

Well thanks for taking time to help me hackskii, i really appreciate it bro.


----------



## Cowsfortea

Hi I messaged you a couple of weeks back explaining I had done full pct (hcg, clomid, nolvadex) protocol but that testosterone was still low at 6.8, when normal range is 10-20. This was mid-february. I had a further follow up test 7th march and its up to 8.1, increasing but still low. I'm continuing on with 50mg of clomid daily and 20mg tamoxifen daily as you advised but this testosterone value is moving up so slowly, only 1.3 in three weeks, at this rate I'll be on clomid etc for another six weeks - 13 weeks in total. What I want to know is whether you would advise redoing the hcg protocol or just continue on with the clomid nolva combo?


----------



## hackskii

Either way mate, I think if you used some more back a month ago you would be better off now, but it is moving and the more sensitivity the better.

You should recover just fine actually but it will take time.


----------



## Cowsfortea

What do you mean when you say the more sensitivity the better?

Would it do any harm to do the hcg protocol again?


----------



## hackskii

I mean the more your testicles respond to LH the more they will respond.


----------



## zorroceasar

Hi

I followed this post as I have a high interest in restarting my HPTA.

I am 53 male diagnosed with secondary hypogonadism no known cause

did not use AAS before now uses very low dose depo T injections.

Been on HRT 6 years very low dose depotrone 80 mg per week.

Been on HCG 250 IU per week last 6 months together wth the T shots.

I am on this low dose as anything higher pushes up my hematocrit.

My total T is 12 ( 3 -29 )

Had high hematocrit possibly from the depo T injections highest was 61 %

Had CBC done before starting HRT . All iron scores was in normal range

except ferretin which was 435 ( 20 -300) H

They did not test for hematocrit then.

I started donating blood to keep my crit down but now my ferritin is very low

after giving blood every 4 weeks for 2 years.

I bought Clomid stopped all T injections and tried the Clomid 50 mg ED for 2 weeks.

Had VERY bad side effects! Headaches from hell and feeling disorientated.

tested for total T results came up 0.7 (3-29) scale.

Stopped the Clomid.

so I now I bought HCG and use 350Iu every second day subq. Been 2 weeks now

Am I on the right road ? I refuse to go back to my endo. His method is giving Sustanon 250 shots

every 3 weeks for life.


----------



## hackskii

Well, hypogonadism may be related to the pituitary or the testicles.

Were you diagnosed primary or secondary hypogonadism?

Your case is a bit diffrent than most as you have some other underlying problems as well.

I dont know all that much about your other conditions so I cant really say.

If you wanted to restart your HPTA thats one thing, but 6 years on test your testicles might not want to respond.

Remember as well, as men age for some reason the leydig cells just dont want to respond to LH like when you were younger (in some men).


----------



## zorroceasar

Hi I am secondary

is it "normal" for crit to rise with depo T?


----------



## hackskii

zorroceasar said:


> Hi I am secondary
> 
> is it "normal" for crit to rise with depo T?


To be honest I cant say.

But the larger doses (outside of TRT) I would say yes.

Have you had an ultrasound on your pituitary?

Do you have alot of bellyfat?

Have you checked your estrogen levels?


----------



## zorroceasar

I am doing very low dose 80 mg per week depo T and my crit still is high.

Yes I had an ultrasound done on the pit no tumors

Have very little bellyfat

estrogen is very low and total T is low as well with the low dose shots

does HCG now as solo therapy does 330iu every other day

2 weeks now and see what happens must say I am desperate

as I cannot give higher T shots then hematocrit increases

Gives blood to combat that and now ferritin gets too low


----------



## MRSTRONG

hi hackskii read the op and then another dozen pages or so looking for an answer could`nt find it so gonna ask the question ...in the op it says you could do 12 weeks of test, followed by the above (pct) protocol, then start another 12 weeks followed by the above (pct) protocol with a month off after that then start again.

so would that mean i can finish a cycle of multi compounds then use this pct protocol then start another cycle as soon as pct is done ? or wait one month after pct then start another cycle ?


----------



## hackskii

uhan said:


> hi hackskii read the op and then another dozen pages or so looking for an answer could`nt find it so gonna ask the question ...in the op it says you could do 12 weeks of test, followed by the above (pct) protocol, then start another 12 weeks followed by the above (pct) protocol with a month off after that then start again.
> 
> so would that mean i can finish a cycle of multi compounds then use this pct protocol then start another cycle as soon as pct is done ? or wait one month after pct then start another cycle ?


That isnt really the way I would do things.

You wont be fully recovered with other things like fertility, and possibly other things like cholesterol levels and stuff.

Gear does put a strain on the adrenal glands too.

More time off wont hurt you.


----------



## MRSTRONG

thanks buddy

think ill stick to time on plus pct = time off before starting another .


----------



## JamesF84

hackskii - I have used this protocol after my last cycle, I did 12 weeks of sust500 per week. I was shut down real bad. I did this protocal and things were back up and running in no time. Usually it took me months after my PCT to get close to up and running, after running the recovery protocal I felt as good as new, in a matter of week, it was almost as if I had never juiced.

My question this time - I have been running 500mg of test E and some winny for the last 7 weeks. I don't feel that shut down, balls are pretty much normal size this time. Should I still run the protocol or should i just do a standard Nolv/Clomid PCT. I have all the HCG on hand and have no problem running it, I am just concerned that if my nuts haven't shrunk this time then using the high doses of HCG may cause me harm.


----------



## hackskii

JamesF84 said:


> hackskii - I have used this protocol after my last cycle, I did 12 weeks of sust500 per week. I was shut down real bad. I did this protocal and things were back up and running in no time. Usually it took me months after my PCT to get close to up and running, after running the recovery protocal I felt as good as new, in a matter of week, it was almost as if I had never juiced.
> 
> My question this time - I have been running 500mg of test E and some winny for the last 7 weeks. I don't feel that shut down, balls are pretty much normal size this time. Should I still run the protocol or should i just do a standard Nolv/Clomid PCT. I have all the HCG on hand and have no problem running it, I am just concerned that if my nuts haven't shrunk this time then using the high doses of HCG may cause me harm.


Had you used low dose HCG during your cycle at like 500iu twice a week you probably would transition very easy.

Now you will be probably forced to use some HCG in this mix somewhere.

If you are doing a 12 week course and you are week 7, you can use now all the way through your cycle which would be another 5 weeks, then 2 weeks during clearance time and even a week into PCT, so that would be 8 weeks with HCG and that probably would be enough to return the nuts back to life and then continue with the clomid and nolva only.


----------



## datdere

hackskii should someone take that docs PCT for a cycle

test enth 500mgs/ week for 12 weeks

dbol 30mg/day for first 5 weeks

?


----------



## hackskii

sure.


----------



## datdere

hackskii said:


> sure.


Or do you think It's a better idea to run the HCG on cycle ( start at week 3 with nolv on hand in case of gyno) then stop HCG at start of pct which would be the same amounts the doc says of clomid and nolv. I'd do either just wandering what you think is better

cheers


----------



## gavzilla

ive been on the gear for 10 year. throughout my cycles ive always done 10 weeks on and 10 weeks off or 4 weeks off. ive been lucky as i never really bothered with pct until afew month ago. i stopped taking gear for 10 months or so as i was trying for children. i used novadex, clomid, proviron and hcg for 2 weeks here and there. i eventually got my girlfriend pregnant. i cant exactly remember my cycles and dosage as they are in my diary but it was something like 5 weeks off the gear then wk 1. 2500 iu hcg wk2. 2500 iu wk 3. 50 mg clomid with 20 mg novadex and 100 mg proviron and carried on for another 2 weeks. i repeated the process afew months later then i got my girlfriend pregnant. something happened and my balls went normal and i even felt stronger as the months went by without the gear. im back on now but im going to use the pct everytime from now on.


----------



## PRD

hackskii said:


> *Avoid aspirin when on HCG as it kind of ruins the effects*


Does paracetamol do the same thing?

as the past two cycles ive done i come off and just as a start PCT i get some propa banging headaches that can last for days

Cheers in advance 

JJ


----------



## Mars

Juice Junky said:


> Does paracetamol do the same thing?
> 
> as the past two cycles ive done i come off and just as a start PCT i get some propa banging headaches that can last for days
> 
> Cheers in advance
> 
> JJ


Wow, i didn't know about the aspirin, not a lot i can do about it though as it's prescribed.

How does it interact?

Doub't paracetomol would have any affect, but then i didn't know about aspirin lol, but TBH hCG is still working same as it ever did.


----------



## hackskii

Juice Junky said:


> Does paracetamol do the same thing?
> 
> as the past two cycles ive done i come off and just as a start PCT i get some propa banging headaches that can last for days
> 
> Cheers in advance
> 
> JJ


I cant answer that, the doc said no aspirin while on HCG, that I remember.

Also vitamin D deficiencies can lower the effects of HCG as well so taking some D would always be a good idea and happens to be quite common for deficiencies as well, especially in the UK where sunlight is compromised.


----------



## PRD

hackskii said:


> I cant answer that, the doc said no aspirin while on HCG, that I remember.
> 
> Also vitamin D deficiencies can lower the effects of HCG as well so taking some D would always be a good idea and happens to be quite common for deficiencies as well, especially in the UK where sunlight is compromised.


Okay cheers anyway 

jj


----------



## stavmangr

Copy and paste article:

It is my belief (and there are many opinions on this) that one should start their PCT with a selective estrogen receptor modulator (or SERM). These are also referred to as estrogen receptor antagonists. The most popular two of these are tamoxifen and clomiphene, but recently the drugs raloxifene, toremifine and enclomiphene (the active isomer of racemic clomiphene) have fallen into favor as well. These drugs work by binding to the estrogen receptor and occupying it; however, unlike classical estrogens, they fail to cause a full estrogenic biological response in tissues. When the tissue in question is the hypothalamus, SERM binding will result in an apparent 'estrogen signaling deficit.' This deficit causes the hypothalamus to release gonadotropin-releasing hormone (GnRH) which then travels to the pituitary where it further stimulates the production of gonadotropins (LH and FSH). The gonadotropins of course then proceed on to the testes, where they stimulate testosterone production and spermatogenesis.

The biggest problem with SERMs, however, is the fact that they not only raise testosterone levels- they also raise estrogen levels. While the SERM is still in the system, this is not a big problem because the SERM is keeping estrogenic biological activity in check. However, upon discontinuation of a SERM, there is a strong potential for testosterone/estrogen imbalance, and this imbalance can lead to a quick reversal of the HPTA recovery as well as estrogenic side effects such as gynecomastia.

*The solution here is to switch to an aromatase inhibitor when the SERM is discontinued. Aromatase inhibitors work to actually reduce estrogen production, and in doing so, they continue to stimulate LH and FSH, while at the same time normalizing the testosterone estrogen ratio. Commonly used aromatase inhibitors are arimidex, fadrozole, exemestane, and the over-the-counter options 6-oxo and ATD. Aromatase inhibitors should be taken the last week of the SERM cycle (both drugs are overlapped for a week or so) and then continued until testosterone levels are normalized (blood tests are crucial here).*

Your thoughts hackskii about the bold paragraph and could you give me an example of the above i take proviron from week 3 of my pct and continue for 2-3 weeks post pct depends how i feel (same age as you next month 51)


----------



## hackskii

Funny you suggest proviron.

Estrogen probably wont be that big of factor, but it can elevate SHBG and I have seen guys bloods to show this.

That in essence would lower free test post cycle.

Proviron would actually have less binding to SHBG.

I was never sold on proviron but just recently I got some liquid proviron and was taking that.

It was suspended in some alcohol solution and when talking to the guy he mentioned it was 10% overdosed.

So, I was taking rather large amounts of it and my gyno went away and was pain free, then I started to get some stiff joints.

I felt pretty damn stiff actually.

Stopped the proviron then about 4 days later my gyno came back (pain) and my joints feel better.

So, I attributed that to low estrogen and also my libido was not as good (strange for me as proviron is awesome for that).

So, logically yes, I would think proviron would be a great addition post cycle PCT actually.

It does make sense, although the dose would have to be just right. I have no idea how much I was taking liquid form, once most of the liquid was gone it probably doubled the dose so I might have been taking something like 200mg a day or something.

I get stiff joints when I take an AI, proviron gave me stiff joints so I now feel it is a better anti-estrogen that I originally thought.

But then again I am very sensitive to all drugs.


----------



## bishbashbosh

Hey Hackskii,

I've been reading your posts for a while now and it seems like your very knowledgable in recovering from the use of anabolics.

I am in my early twenties and have ran a few short courses most 4-6 weeks with one around 10 weeks.

I am finishing my longest course yet, I have almost been on for 12 weeks, I dieted down and my bodyfast is very low sub 8%. I incorporated mainly test, tren and primo with a little masteron and winstrol here and there. Around 300mg each of test, tren and primo.

I stayed on hcg around 200iu every other day for the first 8 weeks but then got gyno, came off the hcg and started taking femara, and it is almost gone. It goes down a little more every day and am confident it will almost completely go in the next few days.

I'm currently on week 11 and have tapered off everything and am just hitting 300mg of test a week for the last week and plan on doing PCT.

Would it be best to stay on a lower dose of letrozole, add clomid and do the 8 shots of hcg every other day. Or just switch to something like arimidex completely - i am worried about gyno as I know HCG aggravates this for me.

Also, how much of all should I take?

What are your thoughts on adding proviron? Is there any shut down with this and also what do you think of SARMS to fill the gap before my next cycle.

Thanks for your help!


----------



## hackskii

The SERMS for PCT will protect you from gyno from the HCG.

I don't like the idea of the letro in the PCT, driving estrogen down wont aid in recovery, but compromise libido, lipid profile, mood, etc.


----------



## bishbashbosh

Ok cool, I will switch on to arimidex

Any idea of the dosages and for how long specific to me, my cycle and age etc.

Or just to follow the standard protocol you mention?

Also what are your thoughts on provision and SARMS?


----------



## Jase24

Hi all new to forum av read this now and the pct after are as this is wat am struggling to grasp at mo.

Am 8weeks into a 12week course of tmp250 test/masterone/trenbolone proprionate ..it's my first ever cycle and I don't no anything bout after care

PleSe can some one help me on what I need and what dose I need?


----------



## seahawk888

hackskii said:


> Start them all the same day, I would do the clomid and nolva in the morning, then clomid in the afternoon (both 50mg), then before bed, do the HCG.
> 
> If that keeps you awake then shoot in the morning, I cant shoot at night but I found this works the best.
> 
> Tribestin is poo poo, I waisted much money on that and the only thing I got from it is loss of money.
> 
> Save your money.
> 
> If you want supps, then take 1000iu vitamin E every day, take ZMA at night before bed empty stomach, this will help you sleep if the HCG is affecting things.
> 
> Melatonin is a great addition to aid in sleep too, and possible GH release when sleeping.
> 
> Cant tell you if it would aid in recovery, but it is suspect HGH is helpful.
> 
> Plus at 41 your melatonin levels will be compromised some anyway.
> 
> Just make sure that when you start your PCT that you have not been on for a while and make sure the stuff is cleared.
> 
> If you like you can give me a PM and tell me how much and how long you were on.
> 
> You should be fine, dont worry, stress wont help you here, you will be fine.
> 
> You would not need anywhere near the amounts if you use it during than not.
> 
> You can continue using HCG along with an AI during the clearance time of your gear, then yes, you can continue low dose in the beginning of PCT. I did this last time and that recovery went by far the best.
> 
> I was shooting 500iu during the cycle twice a week, but I still noticed some testicular atrophy at the end of the cycle.
> 
> So, I kept doing the 500iu, then did 1,000iu EOD for like 4 shots, then kept the clomid and nolva as above.
> 
> That recovery went super easy, best one yet.


Do you know of a doctor who could help me? I have been shut down for a whole year and I stopped hcg after 3 months. I took clomid 50mg and nolva 20 mg for two months after. Hcg did not work for me towards the end of my hcg cycle. I have stopped everything and recently took a blood test. Everything was normal, total test 525 and free test was normal too. I have a hard time losing weight and my balls shrink in the morning and come back at night. really strange andI am still suffering from ed. Let me know if you have advice.

Thank you!


----------



## hackskii

seahawk888 said:


> Do you know of a doctor who could help me? I have been shut down for a whole year and I stopped hcg after 3 months. I took clomid 50mg and nolva 20 mg for two months after. Hcg did not work for me towards the end of my hcg cycle. I have stopped everything and recently took a blood test. Everything was normal, total test 525 and free test was normal too. I have a hard time losing weight and my balls shrink in the morning and come back at night. really strange andI am still suffering from ed. Let me know if you have advice.
> 
> Thank you!


If your levels are within normal range then you are not shut down.

It may be some other issue.

Balls do this anyway, a hot shower they might feel a bit thin too.

Testicles are not the same size either.


----------



## EmporioMani

alright a new thing into the market HCG in capsules form in GNC

http://www.gnc.com/product/index.jsp?productId=10886230

http://www.gnc.com/product/index.jsp?productId=11539655

the first link is for HCG Activator and second link is for HCG Maintenance

i didnt find anything intresting !! so what you guys have to say about it !!

*
HCG Activator Description on GNC is *

*
*

The HCG Activator™ Offers New Hope for Dieters Based on Legitimate Medical Science

HCG (or Human Chorionic Gonadotropin, as it is medically known) allows the body to burn excess bodyfat by using that fat as a food source. HCG is normally administrated by a medical doctor and is very costly and painful. Sounds crazy, right? But here's how it works:

HCG is a naturally occurring hormone that triggers the hypothalamus to release and mobilize any extra fat your body is carrying to use as an energy or "food" source. Therefore, when you go on a very low calorie diet (such as the plan contained with the HCG Activator), the HCG helps make up the difference in the calories it needs to function by using your stored fat as food. As a result, you will burn fat more quickly, and from areas that are typically harder to reduce.An additional benefit of HCG is that you will feel less hunger cravings and desires to snack between meals, despite undergoing a restrictive- calorie diet. This will help you maintain your diet and improve your motivation to continue.

Now, you may enjoy the powerful effects of HCG without the costly, painful injections: The HCG Diet Solution is a natural alternative to HCG administration. HCG Activator does not claim to be a "miracle pill" but instead uses a scientific dietary formula and medically researched protocol that is based on Dr. Simeons' diet, proven to reduce obesity, excess weight, and more specifically bodyfat. Start today, and here is what you can expect:

INSTANTLY: 100% reduction in the desire to snack-and 50% fewer instances of eating meals*

After 1 Week: Flush out up to 7 pounds of toxic fat and lose up to 1-2 pounds a day thereafter

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*
Ingredients in it are *

As a dietary supplement, take one serving (2 capsules) twicedaily with a full glass of water, preferably on an empty stomach. Take one serving, uponwaking (before breakfast); and take the second serving six hours later (between lunch anddinner). Please read the entire label carefully before use, and follow directions.

Supplement Facts

Serving Size 2 Capsules

Servings Per Container 60

Amount Per Serving % DV

Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (hCG) Glycopeptide Stimulating Complex 758.00 mg **

Acetyl-L-Carnitine Hydrochloride **

L-Arginine (as alpha-ketoglutarate) **

L-Ornithine (as alpha-ketoglutarate) **

Green Tea (Camellia sinensis) Phytosome decaffeinated extract (leaf) **

Saffrolite (Crocus sativus L.) Extract (stigma) [std. to 0.34% safranal (0.3 mg) **

Black cohosh (either Actaea racemosa or Cimicifuga racemosa) standardized as saponins **

Huperzine A (Huperzia serrata 1%) **

** Daily Value (DV) not established

Other Ingredients: Rice Flour, Cellulose, Magnesium Stearate (Vegetable Source), Silicone Dioxide

Warning: KEEP OUT OF REACH OF CHILDREN. Not intended for individuals underthe age of 18, unless instructed by a doctor. This product contains black cohosh, which is not to be used while pregnant or nursing. Consult your physician prior to use if you havehigh blood pressure or heart problems or are taking prescription drugs. Do not exceed the recommended daily intake. Seek the advice of a healthcare professional before beginning any supplement or exercise program. This product contains black cohosh, which is not to be used while pregnant or nursing. Improper use of this product will not improve results and is not advised. DO NOT USE IF SAFETY SEAL UNDER CAP IS BROKEN.

*
HCG Maintenance Description on GNC*

HCG MAINTENANCE™ Offers Dieters a Successful Weight Management Method, Based on Legitimate Medical Science

Congratulations! You were successful with Phases I & II using HCG Activator™ and following the HCG Diet Protocol. Phase III is now the most critical part of your weight-loss program. Over these three weeks, and beyond, your body will lock in its new weight "set-point" to effortlessly prevent you from regaining any unwanted pounds or inches.

So, whether you are taking a "break" for three weeks, and then starting another cycle of HCG Activator, or you have already reached your desired weight-loss goal, using HCG Maintenance™, you can comfortably sustain your new weight, along with continued healthy eating as instructed in the HCG Diet Protocol (contained free inside). Successfully following the instructions in this Phase should reset the body's weight "set-point" by positively influencing the hypothalamus. Start today and here's what you can expect:

Reset your metabolism to a high normal state

Eliminate sugar cravings and emotional urges to eat

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* These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease.

*Ingredients in HCG Maintenance*

*
*

As a dietary supplement, take 1 serving (1 capsule) 2 times daily for the firstweek and then increase to up to 2 capsules 2 times daily (after assessing tolerance). Take your HCG Maintenance™ with a full glass of water, preferably 30 minutes before a meal and/or exercise. Do not consume within 4 hours prior to sleep. FOR BEST RESULTS, use HCG Maintenance continuously for at least three weeks.

Supplement Facts

Serving Size 1 Capsule

Servings Per Container 100

Amount Per Serving % DV

Proprietary Blend 342.00 mg **

Razberi-K Raspberry Ketone **

Caffeine (natural) **

Green Tea Extract [standardized to EGCG and caffeine (Camellia sinensis) (leaf)] **

Elderberry Extract [standardized to anthocyanins (Sambucus *****) (fruit)] **

Cinnulin PF® Cinnamon Extract [standardized for 3% Type A polymers (Cinnamomum burmannii) (bark)] **

** Daily Value (DV) not established

Other Ingredients: Gelatin, Rice Flour, Magnesium Stearate, Silicon Dioxide

Warning: NOTICE: DO NOT USE IF SAFETY SEAL UNDER CAP IS BROKEN. KEEP OUT OF REACH OF CHILDREN. Not intended for individuals under the age of 18, unless instructed by a doctor. Do not use this product if you are pregnant, nursing, or contemplating pregnancy. Consult your physician before use if you are taking any over-the-counter or prescription medications. Seek the advice of a health-care professional before beginning any supplement or exercise program. This product contains caffeine and should not be taken by those wishing to eliminate caffeine from their diets. Do not exceed recommended daily intake. Improper use of this product will not improve results and is not advised.

© 2011 iSatori, LLC • 15000 W. 6th Ave., Ste. #202 • Golden, CO 80401 USA

Are these both as effect as taking HCG in injectable form ?

by the way they r saying HCG Maintenance as if these capsules gonna do maintenance with screw driver lol


----------



## C.Hill

^what a load of shít


----------



## hackskii

No, it is not the same, I see that stuff all over the place.

Problem is simple, the HCG in the Dr. Simeons' diet, uses around 100iu to 125iu to work.

As on cycle one would use about 1000iu a week.

Post cycle it would be something like a bottle a day, and that is if it influenced LH like the original diet 40 years ago.

HCG diets do work, I have my wife on it right now, and a friend on it right now.

Does this one work?

Not sure.

Would it work in place of PCT?

I doubt it.

The HCG I was looking at over the counter was sub-lingual.


----------



## EmporioMani

what are the HCG diets ? and is it different from a normal diet plan ?

and what are the benefits of HCG diet ?


----------



## hackskii

EmporioMani said:


> what are the HCG diets ? and is it different from a normal diet plan ?
> 
> and what are the benefits of HCG diet ?


http://hcgdietinfo.com/HCG_Diet_Dr_Simeons_Manuscript.htm


----------



## rickya

Hi im after a bit of help, iv read through most of your post but im still a little stuck, this is my post could you take a look for me and maybe advise me?

Thanks mate.

http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/steroid-testosterone-information/154262-need-help-done-no-pct.html


----------



## aarun

i am 22 working out for past 5 years...

this is my second cycle

i am on a cycle with

week 1 to 12---eq----400mg/week

week 4 to 12---winny--100mg/week

week 6 to 12---deca---50mg/week(for joints)

Arimidex 0.5mg eod through out the cycle

this cycle may extend to 14 weeks not sure of my contest date so oly.....

OPTION 1:

after contest

(ie 21 days after last EQ and deca shot)

HCG

3000IUs/week for 3 weeks

after 4 days

PCT

1st week; clomid 200mg + Nolvadex 40mg

2nd and 3rd week; clomid 50mg + Nolvadex 20mg

or

OPTION 2:

week 1-3........HCG 3000IUs/week with clomid 100mg ED + Nolvadex 20mg ED

week 4 and week 5......clomid 100mg ED + Nolvadex 20mg ED

week 6.....Nolvadex 20mg ED

in the above which option should i follow???

should i add Arimidex for HCG cycle also???

pls help!!!!!


----------



## Jay Walker

I recently heard that Scally has changed this protocol, to run the HCG first, then the SERMs after.

Hacks, can you confirm this?


----------



## hackskii

Jay Walker said:


> I recently heard that Scally has changed this protocol, to run the HCG first, then the SERMs after.
> 
> Hacks, can you confirm this?


I cant, but it would not surprise me one bit.

It makes way more sense to run it during and avoid the down time anyway.

Better to keep the nuts alive than try and bring them back to life.


----------



## MarcFraz1

For anybody considering a PCT, whether as a result of AAS or TRT, i feel that you should check for any possibility of a varicoele on either testicle. See the study below:

http://informahealthcare.com/doi/abs/10.3109/01485019008986861

The incidence of varicoceles in adolescent boys ranges from 5% to 19.5%. We studied five adolescent boys aged 17 to 20 years with visible left-sided varicoceles. All of them had public hair and testicular volumes between 20 to 25 mL and had achieved stage V of pubertal development. Serum gonadotropin response to the intravenous administration of 100 ?g of gonadotropin-releasing hormone (GnRh) and testosterone response to the administration of 2,000 IU human chorionic gonadotropin (hCG) daily for 3 days before and 3 months after varicocelectomy were measured. Basal levels of both gonadotropins were in the pubertal range, and there was no significant difference between serum levels before and after varicocelectomy. Both gonadotropins, however, showed increased responses to the administration of GnRH (luteinizing hormone [LH]: basal, 12.0 ± 5.1 mlU/mL; peak, 105.0 ± 36.0 mlU/mL; follicle-stimulating hormone [FSH]: basal, 11.6 ± 4.2 mlU/mL, peak, 60.0 ± 18.0 mlU/ml) that decreased after varicocelectomy (LH: basal, 14.3 ± 6.0 mlU/mL; peak, 58.6 ±12.0 mlU/mL; FSH: basal, 6.8 ± 4.6 mlU/mL; peak, 38.0 ± 8.1 mlU/mL). *Serum testosterone response to hCG was also significantly improved by varicocelectomy (testosterone peak: before, 780 ± 210 ng/dL; after, 1850 ± 170 ng/dL).* Testicular biopsy specimens showed no histologic abnormalities and normal spermatogenesis*. Endocrine evaluation in adolescent boys with varicoceles could detect an early Leydig cell dysfunction that could be corrected by varicocelectomy.*

*
*

As is evident in the study, the HCG was much more effective when the varicoele was removed due to increased leydig cell sensitivity.

Now, i have spoken to Hackskii and i will be performing my PCT once i have my varicoele removed.

There is alot of research out there concerning varicoele's and the benefits of having them removed. So if you do have one, i suggest you see about an operation a.s.a.p.

Marc


----------



## MRSTRONG

MarcFraz1 said:


> For anybody considering a PCT, whether as a result of AAS or TRT, i feel that you should check for any possibility of a varicoele on either testicle. See the study below:
> 
> http://informahealthcare.com/doi/abs/10.3109/01485019008986861
> 
> The incidence of varicoceles in adolescent boys ranges from 5% to 19.5%. We studied five adolescent boys aged 17 to 20 years with visible left-sided varicoceles. All of them had public hair and testicular volumes between 20 to 25 mL and had achieved stage V of pubertal development. Serum gonadotropin response to the intravenous administration of 100 ?g of gonadotropin-releasing hormone (GnRh) and testosterone response to the administration of 2,000 IU human chorionic gonadotropin (hCG) daily for 3 days before and 3 months after varicocelectomy were measured. Basal levels of both gonadotropins were in the pubertal range, and there was no significant difference between serum levels before and after varicocelectomy. Both gonadotropins, however, showed increased responses to the administration of GnRH (luteinizing hormone [LH]: basal, 12.0 ± 5.1 mlU/mL; peak, 105.0 ± 36.0 mlU/mL; follicle-stimulating hormone [FSH]: basal, 11.6 ± 4.2 mlU/mL, peak, 60.0 ± 18.0 mlU/ml) that decreased after varicocelectomy (LH: basal, 14.3 ± 6.0 mlU/mL; peak, 58.6 ±12.0 mlU/mL; FSH: basal, 6.8 ± 4.6 mlU/mL; peak, 38.0 ± 8.1 mlU/mL). *Serum testosterone response to hCG was also significantly improved by varicocelectomy (testosterone peak: before, 780 ± 210 ng/dL; after, 1850 ± 170 ng/dL).* Testicular biopsy specimens showed no histologic abnormalities and normal spermatogenesis*. Endocrine evaluation in adolescent boys with varicoceles could detect an early Leydig cell dysfunction that could be corrected by varicocelectomy.*
> 
> *
> *
> 
> As is evident in the study, the HCG was much more effective when the varicoele was removed due to increased leydig cell sensitivity.
> 
> Now, i have spoken to Hackskii and i will be performing my PCT once i have my varicoele removed.
> 
> There is alot of research out there concerning varicoele's and the benefits of having them removed. So if you do have one, i suggest you see about an operation a.s.a.p.
> 
> Marc


i do have a varicoele id rather leave it alone as it really dont affect me at the moment , plus i dont want any docs cutting sh1t in my sack ....


----------



## MarcFraz1

Ewen,

I do understand where you're coming from, i have just had my appointment today and will be getting it removed soon (NHS waiting list ). I am coming off trt as i am only 21 and my endo put me on it when i was only 18. I had quite a low t prior to starting trt, so i want to try and get rid of all the factors which may affect my recovery during my PCT.

Now i have found this study proving HCG's effectiveness, so will be carrying out Dr. Scally's protocol once it has been removed.


----------



## MRSTRONG

MarcFraz1 said:


> Ewen,
> 
> I do understand where you're coming from, i have just had my appointment today and will be getting it removed soon (NHS waiting list ). I am coming off trt as i am only 21 and my endo put me on it when i was only 18. I had quite a low t prior to starting trt, so i want to try and get rid of all the factors which may affect my recovery during my PCT.
> 
> Now i have found this study proving HCG's effectiveness, so will be carrying out Dr. Scally's protocol once it has been removed.


cool , ive got an appointment tuesday to get bloods done and hormone/test levels checked so ill speak to the nurse see if i can get her to ask a doc and maybe delve into it more .

mine is like a hard veiny lump (pea sized) but cannot see it like you can a varicose vein .


----------



## Fatstuff

ewen said:


> i do have a varicoele id rather leave it alone as it really dont affect me at the moment , plus i dont want any docs cutting sh1t in my sack ....


pics or bs:rolleye:

sorry, poor taste?


----------



## MRSTRONG

Fatstuff said:


> pics or bs:rolleye:
> 
> your mrs can show you if you ask her
> 
> sorry, poor taste?


----------



## hackskii

Have you been diagnosed with hypogonadism?

Have you had blood work done?

Do you get night time erections?

Can you keep or maintain an erection?

Do you have dry skin?

Do you have a libido?

Can you ejaculate?


----------



## hackskii

Ok, I would suggest that you are returning your HPTA right now and you have a couple of options.

1. Do nothing and recover after probably 2 to 3 more months.

2. Clomid for 30 days, which probably will get you close.

3. Lowish dose of HCG and clomid and nolva for 30 to 45 days.

The reason why I would be a bit careful with the HCG is because you have some testicular function, when testosterone falls well below normal ranges, even an erection can be damn hard to do.

I think that 10,000iu would probably put you where you need to be.

We do not want to over stimulate the leydig cells, just give them a push to bump up natty testosterone levels.

That and the clomid along with the nolva I don't see any reason why 10,000iu would not be enough, and probably 3 weeks of clomid probably would help you feel better by doubling LH function to boost testosterone production.

Let me know what you think.


----------



## hackskii

I would do more than your 500iu twice a week as this is a dose to keep testicular function during the cycle, but the fact that you are shut down, you will respond but it will take longer.

But in your favor leydig cell wont be compromised at dose you are taking.

I would do 1000iu EOD x 10 days.

Use your nolva right now at 20mg for 45 days.

Use clomid at 100mg ED for 30 days.

Start everything all together.

I would also add vitamin E at 1000iu every day.

5000iu Vitamin D as defencies in D would make the HCG not work as well and low D can give you low testosterone levels, so take that every day.

(1) cod liver tab a day.

ZMA before bed if you have any.

At the end, you should be damn close to recovery, or right there.


----------



## hackskii

Every other day.

The issues with clomid will probably manafest on week 3 and longer.

I get it myself but in the end after I come off it goes back to normal.

It has to do with occular toxcicity, and is accumilitive.

So, if you go low dose, you can go longer, yet this offers less bang for your buck.

If you go aggressive then you will notice faster.

If in doubt lower during HCG, then bang on with the 100mg ED.

Once the testicles return to function, the rest is totally easy.


----------



## KS_manchester

Is this thread applicable to PH or just AAS ?

HCG is a new one for me to hear, i am currently researching the adequacy of a PCT for my proposed PH 6 week usage.

It frightens me how intricate recovery is, with some people not even bothering. Ouch.

Sounds like a Dr. is crucial in the process as opposed to just "yeah, take nolva 20/20/20/10/10".

Hmmmmmm.

I have been naturally bodybuilding for 3 years now and really enjoy it. Would like to get chemical gains now, but am frightened if i am honest.

Cheers,

Karl.


----------



## nosion

Hello there, I also have some questions mostly directed to hackskii. (sorry for my bad english)

Iam 23 years old, and have done some really stupid things a couple years ago. Pulsed epistane on and off for about 1 year+ without any PCT.

I have now been off this steroid for 1 year and still not recovered. My bloodwork taken 8.May showed this:

Total testosterone: 14.2 (8.0-35.0)

Free testosterone: 2.8* (3.0-14.7)

SHBG: 51 (8-60)

Around the time these tests were taken I had zero libido, really hard time getting an erection and keeping it going,but when I did manage to get it, it was very weak.

no morning/night-time wood and depression.

For the last weeks after the bloodtest, suddenly I startet getting pretty good morning woods (have had these every day now for 3weeks) , very low libido but atleast not zero, can get a really good erection if I have to.

What would be the best route for this problem? I have not told my doctor that I have been getting better the last weeks, but he won't give me anything for this problem anyway. Iam getting sick of just waiting it out.

Would the best and safest route be clomid stacked with nolva or also HCG?


----------



## hackskii

I think you should be fine very soon if the last 3 weeks have showed improvements.

I would however use some ZMA at night before bed, and vitamin D at 5000iu.

Deficiencies in these nutrients can cause lowish testosterone levels, and both tend to have mild AI properties that with the looks of your SHBG might even help.

You will be fine, just try to relax, get some good sleep, and take those above.


----------



## nosion

allright thanks, I appreciate you taking your time to answer.


----------



## Ginger Ben

Hi Hacks just a quicky. I'm going to be coming off in the next month or so for a while following a period of being on for 6 months. Test only for 5 months (b&c) and low dose (200mg a week) tren e for last month.

Just wondered if the protocol from your first post was still the best approach for a power pct? Given its a few years old I wondered if there was a better approach.

"He suggests 8 shots of HCG @ 2500iu EOD.

With this you take 20 mg of nolvadex for 45 days.

Clomid is also taken but twice a day @ 50mg each dose 12 hours apart."

I know ill news a blood test to confirm all is well at the end of the pct but just wanted to ask if this was.still the best way to go.

Thanks in advance.


----------



## hackskii

Ginger Ben said:


> Hi Hacks just a quicky. I'm going to be coming off in the next month or so for a while following a period of being on for 6 months. Test only for 5 months (b&c) and low dose (200mg a week) tren e for last month.
> 
> Just wondered if the protocol from your first post was still the best approach for a power pct? Given its a few years old I wondered if there was a better approach.
> 
> "He suggests 8 shots of HCG @ 2500iu EOD.
> 
> With this you take 20 mg of nolvadex for 45 days.
> 
> Clomid is also taken but twice a day @ 50mg each dose 12 hours apart."
> 
> I know ill news a blood test to confirm all is well at the end of the pct but just wanted to ask if this was.still the best way to go.
> 
> Thanks in advance.


Yes, it is still fine.

You may or may not be right where you want to be in the end.

But, yah, that is what I would do.


----------



## Ginger Ben

hackskii said:


> Yes, it is still fine.
> 
> You may or may not be right where you want to be in the end.
> 
> But, yah, that is what I would do.


Thanks man, appreciated


----------



## Craigyboy

Hacksii I am on cycle at he moment and have worked up from 600mg test e pw to 750mg pw

Also taking tbol at 80mg per day for last 6 weeks of cycle.

Will have been on a total of 15 weeks

Question is how long do I wait before starting the 45 day protocol?

Thanks Craig


----------



## hackskii

A month would be about right, possibly 5 weeks, depending on if it was one shot.


----------



## Craigyboy

Do I need to do anything in that month, like take any Nolva or clomid r just stick to my adex that I have been taking throughout


----------



## Craigyboy

It is 2 shots per week ( 1x2ml, 1x1ml)


----------



## harryblue

Is testicular atrophy a good indicator of being shut down, or will they shrink regardless on cycle?

I used HCG @ 1000iu EW from week 2 and noticed some testicular atrophy around week 4 of a 500mg EW Test E cycle.

I remained on 1000iu EW but on weeks 7 & 8 weeks I tried 800iu ED for three days - so for example, 800iu HCG ED on Weds, Thurs & Fri with 500mg Test E on the Friday.

Still the same atrophy.

On avarage I'd guess 30-40% loss in size.


----------



## hackskii

harryblue said:


> Is testicular atrophy a good indicator of being shut down, or will they shrink regardless on cycle?
> 
> I used HCG @ 1000iu EW from week 2 and noticed some testicular atrophy around week 4 of a 500mg EW Test E cycle.
> 
> I remained on 1000iu EW but on weeks 7 & 8 weeks I tried 800iu ED for three days - so for example, 800iu HCG ED on Weds, Thurs & Fri with 500mg Test E on the Friday.
> 
> Still the same atrophy.
> 
> On avarage I'd guess 30-40% loss in size.


Testicular size is no indication of being shut down.

Example being leydic cells only comprise about 10% of the mass of the testicles, the rest is for sperm production which is absence of FSH, which HCG does not help.


----------



## hackskii

I have posted the supps on two threads, have a search for that.

I would run the HCG right up to start of PCT, even first week, then SERMS for 3 weeks past last HCG shot.


----------



## baggsy1436114680

Is this outdated now? whats better this hcg blast or doing 5,000iu in 1 shot for 4 weeks??


----------



## hackskii

baggsy said:


> Is this outdated now? whats better this hcg blast or doing 5,000iu in 1 shot for 4 weeks??


No, I suggested he run it through the cycle and first week into PCT to ensure testicular function.

With long cycles this would be a good idea.


----------



## hackskii

Cr3do said:


> Thanks Hackskii, but what PCT should I do, the 45 day one?


If you have run HCG through out your cycle, it wont be needed during PCT, also the length of time on there SERMS will be shorter as you already have testicular function.


----------



## MRSTRONG

hacks i plan on coming off for 8 weeks without any pct perhaps maybe adex , plan is to taper down and be clear for 8 weeks min , it will be my firstr time off since jan start of this year when i had roughly 8 weeks off whats your thoughts ?


----------



## hackskii

ewen said:


> hacks i plan on coming off for 8 weeks without any pct perhaps maybe adex , plan is to taper down and be clear for 8 weeks min , it will be my firstr time off since jan start of this year when i had roughly 8 weeks off whats your thoughts ?


Taper is an option but just not without something else in the mix.

If the taper is equal to or greater than endo production, no stimulation will be sent from pituitary to testicles.

A dutch endo doctor uses the taper at around 65 to 75mg a week with testosterone yet runs nolva at 20mg with that for months.

Idea is to not be zero yet some stimulation to send LH to the leydig cells to make up the difference as natty numbers are around 100mg a week of testosterone.

I myself would probably do some HCG to force the balls to get to work now.

If you have been on for some time, even blasting and cruising, then testicular function can be months, and many months at that.

Recovery with nothing could take up to a year.

This is why it is so important to keep some HCG in the mix, and or even HMG.

With the taper little LH will be sent, that little tickle to the nuts after they are not working will really be a slow roll.

Taper is ok, and especially so for the guys that have been on with big doses for long times.

What big doses do is kind of reset your androgen homeostasis, meaning dropping to a regular cycle even could cause one to crash.

I knew a guy that did big amounts, then when he tried to come off anything under 400mg a week he crashed on.

Only way around this is to taper down to natty levels, then do an aggressive PCT.

So, if you want to taper fine, keep lowering the dose to where you get to around 65mg a week, then run nolva for a few months.

Its not the way I would do it, but it would be ok.


----------



## MRSTRONG

hackskii said:


> Taper is an option but just not without something else in the mix.
> 
> If the taper is equal to or greater than endo production, no stimulation will be sent from pituitary to testicles.
> 
> A dutch endo doctor uses the taper at around 65 to 75mg a week with testosterone yet runs nolva at 20mg with that for months.
> 
> Idea is to not be zero yet some stimulation to send LH to the leydig cells to make up the difference as natty numbers are around 100mg a week of testosterone.
> 
> I myself would probably do some HCG to force the balls to get to work now.
> 
> If you have been on for some time, even blasting and cruising, then testicular function can be months, and many months at that.
> 
> Recovery with nothing could take up to a year.
> 
> This is why it is so important to keep some HCG in the mix, and or even HMG.
> 
> With the taper little LH will be sent, that little tickle to the nuts after they are not working will really be a slow roll.
> 
> Taper is ok, and especially so for the guys that have been on with big doses for long times.
> 
> What big doses do is kind of reset your androgen homeostasis, meaning dropping to a regular cycle even could cause one to crash.
> 
> I knew a guy that did big amounts, then when he tried to come off anything under 400mg a week he crashed on.
> 
> Only way around this is to taper down to natty levels, then do an aggressive PCT.
> 
> So, if you want to taper fine, keep lowering the dose to where you get to around 65mg a week, then run nolva for a few months.
> 
> Its not the way I would do it, but it would be ok.


thanks , im thinking of doing the power pct but by the time its done ill be due back on , not sure what to do for the best tbh .


----------



## Fatstuff

Stay on :rolleye:


----------



## MRSTRONG

Fatstuff said:


> Stay on :rolleye:


im tempted mate .

i id notice a crash on lower doses and 500mg was the lowest i went .


----------



## hackskii

ewen said:


> im tempted mate .
> 
> i id notice a crash on lower doses and 500mg was the lowest i went .


Well, I would taper that down, and you can use some HCG to help avoid the crash, adrenals are probably burned out too some DHEA might not be a bad idea.

This is the problem with long cycles using lots of gear.

You will have no choice to come off eventually.


----------



## hackskii

How long was your cycle?

You say you shot 1000iu a week of HCG, then did the power PCT (was more HCG in this?), and you still have atrophy?

Do you get morning wood or night time erections?

How is your libido?

Can you keep and maintain an erection?

Can you ejaculate with no external stimilus?

If your face oily or skin dry?

Do you have normal/ish energy?

Do you have brain fog?


----------



## hackskii

daniel_3855 said:


> cycle was for 14 weeks. i ran hcg right up to pct them jumped on clomid/nolva/aromasin.
> 
> i always have a rock hard on in the morning without fail and at night....bit of a pain when getting up in middle of night for a **** and its rock hard lol
> 
> libido is ok but not great. but think everyone libido will be decreased slightly after a cycle?
> 
> yes ejaculate very easy can only last 10mins without viagra lol.
> 
> i can maintain and erection but if i dont concentrate it will go floppy so i pop cialis now so it doesnt happen.
> 
> skin is slightly greasy still but not as bad when was on cycle and energy is normal.
> 
> cheers mate.


Well, if you are not taking Vitamin D, then do so, ZMA would also be a good idea, boron would be good, also A, and E.

The D works well for me, and I notice that.

Then wait another week after you take those and then re-assess.

Or low dose clomid for a few weeks, but those vitamins and minerals support your test production, as well as low dose DHEA.

You sound ok to me though.


----------



## JR8908

Hi Hackskii

Firstly I would like to say this thread is awesome. Some really interisting and usefull info on here

I would like to ask you a few questions about my next cycle

My cycle is

Week 1-10 500mg test enanthate (2 x 250mg shot per week)

Week 1-3 300mg test propionate (3 x 100mg shots per week Mon/Wed/Fri)

week 4-10 1000iu hcg (2 x 500iu shots per week)

Week 11 1000iu hcg eod for 5 shots

Week 13-16 - 20mg tamoxifen, 100mg clomid ED

Will also add in some anastroloze each week but need to get hold of some more

does this pct protocol look ok to you?

do i need to add in some tamoxifen on week 11 when i up the dose of hcg to protect the nuts like you have mentioned previously?

I seem to suffer pretty hard shutdowns in the past but i have been guilty of not following proper pct protocols so want to get this one spot on.

any help would be greatly appreciated


----------



## hackskii

I would use the HCG all the way through the clearance time of the gear, then start your PCT week 3 after last shot.

Use an AI during all the way to start time of PCT.


----------



## JR8908

hackskii said:


> I would use the HCG all the way through the clearance time of the gear, then start your PCT week 3 after last shot.
> 
> Use an AI during all the way to start time of PCT.


Ok cool thank you.

So week 11 and 12 run hcg. What dose would you recommend? Then start the tamoxifen and clomid on week 13?


----------



## hackskii

500iu twice a week and run that till the very day you start your SERMS.


----------



## JR8908

Thanks for the advice mate.

Would you be able to pop into a thread I made and offer any advice? It would be greatly appreciated.

I tried to post the thread link up on here but it won't let me. The thread is called Messed up after a long cycle, what to do next.


----------



## NO-IDEA

Hi Hackskii im having my last injection of t-400 which contains a blend of 3 esters cyp,enth, and dec on the 23rd of September. Am i ok to start the power pct protocol on the 7/8th of October or would you wait a week longer. managed to come in 40000 iu of HCG so have all the tools.

Thanks


----------



## hackskii

NO-IDEA said:


> Hi Hackskii im having my last injection of t-400 which contains a blend of 3 esters cyp,enth, and dec on the 23rd of September. Am i ok to start the power pct protocol on the 7/8th of October or would you wait a week longer. managed to come in 40000 iu of HCG so have all the tools.
> 
> Thanks


How much are you taking of the T-400?

How much of that is the dec ester per shot, what is the total last shot of the dec ester you are shooting?

Have you used HCG during?


----------



## NO-IDEA

hackskii said:


> How much are you taking of the T-400?
> 
> How much of that is the dec ester per shot, what is the total last shot of the dec ester you are shooting?
> 
> Have you used HCG during?


I will use 1m per week currently just crusing on 300 mg of test prop then starting test400 in a week as im going on holiday in 5 weeks for a week so im hoping the t400 will stop me from crashing. Theres 150 mg of dec per ml if i remember correctly. No Hcg, but this will certainly be the last cycle where i don't use it, going to stay off for a good 10 weeks and hopefully get somwhere near recovered then follow the text book on the next cycles.

Thanks


----------



## hackskii

Well, I would say 2 to 3 weeks, by the time you finish with the HCG, there should be no activity from the gear in your system.


----------



## mrbez

Hi guys,

For 500 test per week, would 500iu HCG during course, followed by 1000 iu EOD for 12 days during my clearance period be okay?

EG

Week 1 - 12 500iu per week

Week 12 - 13 1000iu EDO

Week 14 PCT


----------



## hackskii

mrbez said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> For 500 test per week, would 500iu HCG during course, followed by 1000 iu EOD for 12 days during my clearance period be okay?
> 
> EG
> 
> Week 1 - 12 500iu per week
> 
> Week 12 - 13 1000iu EDO
> 
> Week 14 PCT


How about 500iu twice a week throughout the cycle, and including clearance time of the gear instead?


----------



## mrbez

hackskii said:


> How about 500iu twice a week throughout the cycle, and including clearance time of the gear instead?


So just 500iu two times per week, including the clearance stage. With no blast, and no HCG through PCT.

PCT consisting of Nolva and Chlomid - Any need for proviron?


----------



## hackskii

mrbez said:


> So just 500iu two times per week, including the clearance stage. With no blast, and no HCG through PCT.
> 
> PCT consisting of Nolva and Chlomid - Any need for proviron?


You wont need the proviron, but if you want you can use it, or use it after.

If you really want to use more HCG you can use it for a week starting PCT, but you will need to run the clomid and nolva a bit longer if you decide to do this.


----------



## mrbez

hackskii said:


> You wont need the proviron, but if you want you can use it, or use it after.
> 
> If you really want to use more HCG you can use it for a week starting PCT, but you will need to run the clomid and nolva a bit longer if you decide to do this.


Thanks Scott - What dose of Chlomid and Nolva would you suggest?

Chlomid : 150/100/50

Nolva : 40/40/20/20


----------



## hackskii

mrbez said:


> Thanks Scott - What dose of Chlomid and Nolva would you suggest?
> 
> Chlomid : 150/100/50
> 
> Nolva : 40/40/20/20


Keep the nolva at 20mg, no need for more, try and use 100mg clomid unless the sides are too much.


----------



## ajb1986

Hi Hackskii,

I would be very grateful for your help. I am 26 years old and finished my second cycle over 18 months ago. I crashed very badly and have been extremely depressed for the past 18 months and have no interest in women whatsoever! The cycle I ran was as follows:

weeks 1-6 tren ace - 75mg EOD

weeks 1-6 test prop - 100mg EOD

weeks 4-6 wintrol - 50mg/day

I came off my cycle in March 2011, & started a PCT using HCG & nolvadex. However, after 2 days of my last cycle shot I suffered extreme depression, I become suicidal and was very close to acting on it. After several weeks I returned to a non-suicidal state but still extemely depressed. I have never fully recovered and will not be using AAS ever again. My life has been hell ever since stopping my last cycle and I have tried re-running a PCT.

I am still suffering from testicular hytrophy though do experience morning wood.

I stayed off everything for 7 months and didn't recover. My free test levels were 211 at this point.

At this stage I need to point out that I started using GHRP-6 peptides at 5000mcg/day and ran that for 6 months. I stopped the peptides and had my test levels checked again and they had risen slightly to 287.

However, 2 months after this (last week), I had my free test levels checked again and they were down to 220 :-(

I have just started your suggested PCT protocol and today is day 1 for me. Please can you comment on whether you think it will be possible for me to recover?

My doctor has suggested HRT but I really don't want to go down that road.

Also, any further suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

I can supply additional blood statistics if required.

Many thanks in advance!


----------



## hackskii

ajb1986 said:


> Hi Hackskii,
> 
> I would be very grateful for your help. I am 26 years old and finished my second cycle over 18 months ago. I crashed very badly and have been extremely depressed for the past 18 months and have no interest in women whatsoever! The cycle I ran was as follows:
> 
> weeks 1-6 tren ace - 75mg EOD
> 
> weeks 1-6 test prop - 100mg EOD
> 
> weeks 4-6 wintrol - 50mg/day
> 
> I came off my cycle in March 2011, & started a PCT using HCG & nolvadex. However, after 2 days of my last cycle shot I suffered extreme depression, I become suicidal and was very close to acting on it. After several weeks I returned to a non-suicidal state but still extemely depressed. I have never fully recovered and will not be using AAS ever again. My life has been hell ever since stopping my last cycle and I have tried re-running a PCT.
> 
> I am still suffering from testicular hytrophy though do experience morning wood.
> 
> I stayed off everything for 7 months and didn't recover. My free test levels were 211 at this point.
> 
> At this stage I need to point out that I started using GHRP-6 peptides at 5000mcg/day and ran that for 6 months. I stopped the peptides and had my test levels checked again and they had risen slightly to 287.
> 
> However, 2 months after this (last week), I had my free test levels checked again and they were down to 220 :-(
> 
> I have just started your suggested PCT protocol and today is day 1 for me. Please can you comment on whether you think it will be possible for me to recover?
> 
> My doctor has suggested HRT but I really don't want to go down that road.
> 
> Also, any further suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
> 
> I can supply additional blood statistics if required.
> 
> Many thanks in advance!


Ok, if you are taking any scrip drugs you know that it may affect Testosterone levels right?

I will give you a list of things that can compromise testosterone levels.

High cortisol, high prolactin, sleep apnea, stress, lack of sleep, deficiencies in vitamin D, E, A, zinc, magnesium, boron.

Me personally I would take 100mg clomid for 3 weeks.

5000iu vitamin D ED

1 cod liver tab a day

1000iu vitamin E ED

20 to 25mg boron a day

ZMA before bed

25mg DHEA a day

6 fish oil tabs.

Try and get 8 hours of sleep a day.

It would sound strange to me that a 6 week cycle one could shut down for a year and a half, to me something else is going on.


----------



## corporates

Interesting to see boron is in there Hackskii, i have 25kg bags of the stuff round me most days as i work in the nuclear industry a lot...

Water is boronated for the nuclear cycle...and ifd, irradiated fuel disposal facility. And decay heat storage.


----------



## ajb1986

hackskii said:


> Ok, if you are taking any scrip drugs you know that it may affect Testosterone levels right?
> 
> I will give you a list of things that can compromise testosterone levels.
> 
> High cortisol, high prolactin, sleep apnea, stress, lack of sleep, deficiencies in vitamin D, E, A, zinc, magnesium, boron.
> 
> Me personally I would take 100mg clomid for 3 weeks.
> 
> 5000iu vitamin D ED
> 
> 1 cod liver tab a day
> 
> 1000iu vitamin E ED
> 
> 20 to 25mg boron a day
> 
> ZMA before bed
> 
> 25mg DHEA a day
> 
> 6 fish oil tabs.
> 
> Try and get 8 hours of sleep a day.
> 
> It would sound strange to me that a 6 week cycle one could shut down for a year and a half, to me something else is going on.


Thanks very much for your reply Hackskii. I will try all of your suggestions.

I have to point out that the day following my first shot of HCG (2500iu's) I felt fantastic, better than I've ever felt since coming off the cycle in March 2011! Testicular size was almost restored.

Though the immense feeling of well-being I had has greatly subsided now. Perhaps a lot of it is psychological, it's hard to tell!


----------



## hackskii

ajb1986 said:


> Thanks very much for your reply Hackskii. I will try all of your suggestions.
> 
> I have to point out that the day following my first shot of HCG (2500iu's) I felt fantastic, better than I've ever felt since coming off the cycle in March 2011! Testicular size was almost restored.
> 
> Though the immense feeling of well-being I had has greatly subsided now. Perhaps a lot of it is psychological, it's hard to tell!


That is common with the use of HCG and for a few reasons one being androgen spikes and also pregnenolone for mood.

Very common and not psychological either.

I knew a guy that crashed hard, took a shot of HCG and next day he felt almost normal.

But that is the thing, you must get testicular function, HCG will mimic LH and bump T and E levels which both will be ok.


----------



## ajb1986

hackskii said:


> That is common with the use of HCG and for a few reasons one being androgen spikes and also pregnenolone for mood.
> 
> Very common and not psychological either.
> 
> I knew a guy that crashed hard, took a shot of HCG and next day he felt almost normal.
> 
> But that is the thing, you must get testicular function, HCG will mimic LH and bump T and E levels which both will be ok.


Hackskii, do you think that perhaps the GHRP-2 and CJC-1295 peptides has kept me from recovering? I finished my last steroids cycle in March 2011 which caused me to crash, and stayed off everything until October, but then used the peptides for 8 months.

(I will be staying off everything for now, at least until my test levels (hopefully) recover!)


----------



## hackskii

ajb1986 said:


> Hackskii, do you think that perhaps the GHRP-2 and CJC-1295 peptides has kept me from recovering? I finished my last steroids cycle in March 2011 which caused me to crash, and stayed off everything until October, but then used the peptides for 8 months.
> 
> (I will be staying off everything for now, at least until my test levels (hopefully) recover!)


No, I find a little bit of libido boost with GHRP-2 myself, I doubt it hinders recovery, and if I had to call it, probably helps.

You crashed due to low androgens, pretty much sums it all up there, testicles not working, and probably no signal from the pituitary to the testicles.

Once the pituitary sends enough signals to the testicles, they wake up slowly.


----------



## ajb1986

hackskii said:


> No, I find a little bit of libido boost with GHRP-2 myself, I doubt it hinders recovery, and if I had to call it, probably helps.
> 
> You crashed due to low androgens, pretty much sums it all up there, testicles not working, and probably no signal from the pituitary to the testicles.
> 
> Once the pituitary sends enough signals to the testicles, they wake up slowly.


Thanks HackSkii. Is there any way for me to find out whether I have testicular function (other than judging by size)?

& is the fact that the HCG has, at least temporarily, reduced testicular hytrophy a good sign or irrelevant?

Sorry for all the questions but my life really has been hell for the past 1 1/2 years. I'm just interested to understand whether it will be possible for me to return to a sense of well-being similar to before my tren cycle.


----------



## hackskii

ajb1986 said:


> Thanks HackSkii. Is there any way for me to find out whether I have testicular function (other than judging by size)?
> 
> & is the fact that the HCG has, at least temporarily, reduced testicular hytrophy a good sign or irrelevant?
> 
> Sorry for all the questions but my life really has been hell for the past 1 1/2 years. I'm just interested to understand whether it will be possible for me to return to a sense of well-being similar to before my tren cycle.


Testicular size is not an indication of testicular function.

Really best way is to get a hormonal panel blood work done and see what is going on.

If you can keep and maintain an erection, have normal libido, have night time erections then it is not likely it is testosterone.


----------



## ajb1986

hackskii said:


> Testicular size is not an indication of testicular function.
> 
> Really best way is to get a hormonal panel blood work done and see what is going on.
> 
> If you can keep and maintain an erection, have normal libido, have night time erections then it is not likely it is testosterone.


Unfortunately, I do struggle to maintain an erection, I very rarely get one in the day, though night time is a regular occurrence (I guess when my test levels improve slightly. I have very very low libido and it's wrecking my life because my interest in women is almost negligible :-/

Just for info, I got further test results back relating to my recent 220 free test level readings:

Serum LH level 1.4iu/L

Serum FSH level 2.1iu/L

Serum testosterone 10.9nmol/L

Serum sex hormone binding glob 47nmol/L

I'm not sure if any of these figures are useful for understanding whether I will be able to recover?


----------



## hackskii

ajb1986 said:


> Unfortunately, I do struggle to maintain an erection, I very rarely get one in the day, though night time is a regular occurrence (I guess when my test levels improve slightly. I have very very low libido and it's wrecking my life because my interest in women is almost negligible :-/
> 
> Just for info, I got further test results back relating to my recent 220 free test level readings:
> 
> Serum LH level 1.4iu/L
> 
> Serum FSH level 2.1iu/L
> 
> Serum testosterone 10.9nmol/L
> 
> Serum sex hormone binding glob 47nmol/L
> 
> I'm not sure if any of these figures are useful for understanding whether I will be able to recover?


Do you have the reference ranges of those?


----------



## NO-IDEA

Hi Hacski, i tried sending you a pm but i i think it failed. What are your thoughts on running ADEX at .5mg during the powerpct to combat hcg induced gyno. Obviously people do this but i've read recently that adex interferes with how the nolva and clomid which are also in the powerpct work? Im currently flicking between the power pct and Mars 5000 iu weekly theory, but started to worry about gyno as im very sensitive to such issue.

Regards.


----------



## hackskii

NO-IDEA said:


> Hi Hacski, i tried sending you a pm but i i think it failed. What are your thoughts on running ADEX at .5mg during the powerpct to combat hcg induced gyno. Obviously people do this but i've read recently that adex interferes with how the nolva and clomid which are also in the powerpct work? Im currently flicking between the power pct and Mars 5000 iu weekly theory, but started to worry about gyno as im very sensitive to such issue.
> 
> Regards.


Adex wont be necessary when clomid and nolva are in the mix.


----------



## ajb1986

hackskii said:


> Do you have the reference ranges of those?


No, unfortunately the normal ranges for these values don't appear to be specified. I do have a whole host of bloodwork statistics from a previous test though not sure which ones would be most relevant for understanding whether it will be possible for me to recover.

I mean, I guess, if I don't recover the only option will be TRT/HRT but I don't know how long I should wait before making a decision. I want to avoid TRT/HRT at all costs but right now my life is hell, has been for the past 18 months and there seems to be no end in sight. I have heard that it can take up to 5 years to recover fully, so perhaps I should just try to wait it out?


----------



## hackskii

ajb1986 said:


> No, unfortunately the normal ranges for these values don't appear to be specified. I do have a whole host of bloodwork statistics from a previous test though not sure which ones would be most relevant for understanding whether it will be possible for me to recover.
> 
> I mean, I guess, if I don't recover the only option will be TRT/HRT but I don't know how long I should wait before making a decision. I want to avoid TRT/HRT at all costs but right now my life is hell, has been for the past 18 months and there seems to be no end in sight. I have heard that it can take up to 5 years to recover fully, so perhaps I should just try to wait it out?


I would be willing to bet that if you can ejaculate you can recover.

Just the method might change depending on what is what.


----------



## fruityloop

hackskii read your post and you seem like you got the answers to a lot of questions

I recently purchased omnadren 250 (17 ampueles) and retabol 50ml (18ampueles)

this is a 8 week cycle

cycle as follows:

week 1: 1 omnadren + 2 Retabol

week 2: 2 Retabol + 1 omnadren

week 3: 2 omnadren + 2 Retabol

week 4: 3 omnadren + 2 Retabol

week 5: 3 omnadren + 3 Retabol

week 6: 3 Retabol + 2 omnadren

week 7: 3 omnadren + 2 Retabol

week 8: 3 Retabol + 2 omnadren

i wanted to know the amount of HCG that would be sufficient to the amount i am taking also i have been advised that i will not need clomid or nolvadex as the amount i am taking is small. is this true. Also have you or anyone you know experienced using retabol


----------



## hackskii

fruityloop said:


> hackskii read your post and you seem like you got the answers to a lot of questions
> 
> I recently purchased omnadren 250 (17 ampueles) and retabol 50ml (18ampueles)
> 
> this is a 8 week cycle
> 
> cycle as follows:
> 
> week 1: 1 omnadren + 2 Retabol
> 
> week 2: 2 Retabol + 1 omnadren
> 
> week 3: 2 omnadren + 2 Retabol
> 
> week 4: 3 omnadren + 2 Retabol
> 
> week 5: 3 omnadren + 3 Retabol
> 
> week 6: 3 Retabol + 2 omnadren
> 
> week 7: 3 omnadren + 2 Retabol
> 
> week 8: 3 Retabol + 2 omnadren
> 
> i wanted to know the amount of HCG that would be sufficient to the amount i am taking also i have been advised that i will not need clomid or nolvadex as the amount i am taking is small. is this true. Also have you or anyone you know experienced using retabol


I would use HCG in there myself at 500iu twice a week.

Yes you will need clomid and nolva.

Never heard of retabol before, what is it?


----------



## ajb1986

hackskii said:


> I would be willing to bet that if you can ejaculate you can recover.
> 
> Just the method might change depending on what is what.


Thanks a lot for the confidence buddy, I don't have any problems there so hopefully I can recover.

I don't really get on too well with clomid at all, feel like my whole world has caved in, paranoid as h*ll and feel like I'm losing my mind on it....considering stopping it! :-/

Nolvadex and HCG don't affect me adversely though.


----------



## DORIAN

Just red threw this very good post mate; i was very interested that he knew

people who have recoverd of a 18 month test cycle with 45 days pct.

just goes to show that a lot of pct people do could be exsessive.


----------



## mrbez

Hacksii - I was speaking with somebody yesterday, they said 500iu of HCG, every 3 weeks or so, during course, is all that is needed just to stimulate the gland.

He believed that 500/1000 iu per week was way too much, as you can become insensitive to it.

Thoughts?


----------



## hackskii

mrbez said:


> Hacksii - I was speaking with somebody yesterday, they said 500iu of HCG, every 3 weeks or so, during course, is all that is needed just to stimulate the gland.
> 
> He believed that 500/1000 iu per week was way too much, as you can become insensitive to it.
> 
> Thoughts?


Well, it does not stimulate any glands, so who every is saying this has no concept of what he is talking about.

A Dr. Christler suggested no more than 350iu is needed and he gives his guys between 250iu to 350iu twice a week for TRT, that pushes the numbers far past the guy that does not know what he is talking about.

Not to mention studies suggest nolva protects the leydig cells from too much HCG.

From personal experience 500iu twice a week is good, and even that might not be enough over time.


----------



## zak007

Currently on cycle just now and 2 weeks in and got tests from bloods done 2 weeks and test levels fsh and lh were all low (lower than normal range)

But also had a test done from about 10 weeks ago when on my cycle which was bunk and test levels came back at 10.9 now from 2 weeks ago a test during late evening my test results came back at 8 I didnt do a PCT due to bunk test but some of it was real

So Im on test e 10 weeks 500mg pw and was going to do the protocol in the op but not sure how to do it as a pct

He suggests 8 shots of HCG @ 2500iu EOD.

With this you take 20 mg of nolvadex for 45 days.

Clomid is also taken but twice a day @ 50mg each dose 12 hours apart.

So roughly 14-21 days after last jab start HCG 2500iu eod which is e2ds isnt it?

20mg for 45 days and clomid 100mg for 30 or 45 days and do the start the day hcg is started?


----------



## hackskii

Yes, this is correct.

You may have some hard time with recovery as you are not even recovered and now on another cycle.

I would totally suggest running the supplements I suggested during too.


----------



## zak007

hackskii said:


> Start PCT day 17 from last jab.
> 
> Start the PCT all at once and it is 8 shots of 2500 that is 20,000iu total of HCG.
> 
> I really dont know about the rhom caps to be honest.





hackskii said:


> Start them all the same day, I would do the clomid and nolva in the morning, then clomid in the afternoon (both 50mg), then before bed, do the HCG.
> 
> If that keeps you awake then shoot in the morning, I cant shoot at night but I found this works the best.
> 
> Tribestin is poo poo, I waisted much money on that and the only thing I got from it is loss of money.
> 
> Save your money.
> 
> If you want supps, then take 1000iu vitamin E every day, take ZMA at night before bed empty stomach, this will help you sleep if the HCG is affecting things.
> 
> Melatonin is a great addition to aid in sleep too, and possible GH release when sleeping.
> 
> Cant tell you if it would aid in recovery, but it is suspect HGH is helpful.
> 
> Plus at 41 your melatonin levels will be compromised some anyway.
> 
> Just make sure that when you start your PCT that you have not been on for a while and make sure the stuff is cleared.
> 
> If you like you can give me a PM and tell me how much and how long you were on.
> 
> You should be fine, dont worry, stress wont help you here, you will be fine.
> 
> You would not need anywhere near the amounts if you use it during than not.
> 
> You can continue using HCG along with an AI during the clearance time of your gear, then yes, you can continue low dose in the beginning of PCT. I did this last time and that recovery went by far the best.
> 
> I was shooting 500iu during the cycle twice a week, but I still noticed some testicular atrophy at the end of the cycle.
> 
> So, I kept doing the 500iu, then did 1,000iu EOD for like 4 shots, then kept the clomid and nolva as above.
> 
> That recovery went super easy, best one yet.


So start PCT day 17 after last jab

do hcg eod 2500iu (x8)

clomid 100mg for 30 days

nolva 20mg for 45 days

supps vitamin e 1000iu every day how much is that in g? can it be taken orally

And take zma is that a must or just to help you sleep?


----------



## chi-raq nick

Hey bro hackskii I need your knowledge and help on this one . I did aas 3 times, the first 2 times I recovered fine with no pct but I did a cycle from march until may so 3 months of sustanon 250 ,500 every week and then 30 days of 50 winstrol after that I did a 3 week of pct of Clomid and I thought I was fine but then like a idiot without knowing I started to put the rs-transdermal gel for a month without knowing that one also shuts you down.

once I started to wake up with no morning wood I did 5000 hcg and followed by 2 weeks of nolva , but I stopped the nolva cause it killed my libido and my erection worse then being shut down . Now that I quit the nolva and I noticed better nocturnal erection and sometimes morning wood I started Clomid again 100/100/50/50 what do you think ? I like Clomid . I'm waiting for my blood results also. I take zinc ,avena sativa ,Dhea ,tribulus and multi vitamin. I'm taking Clomid at night 100 at once .

You much appreciated for your knowledge and help , Respect.


----------



## hackskii

Rq355 said:


> So start PCT day 17 after last jab
> 
> do hcg eod 2500iu (x8)
> 
> clomid 100mg for 30 days
> 
> nolva 20mg for 45 days
> 
> supps vitamin e 1000iu every day how much is that in g? can it be taken orally
> 
> And take zma is that a must or just to help you sleep?


Not sure in G it is measured in iu.

I would for sure add in vitamin D as well, that is good for testosterone production and also one vitamin that is a common deficiency.

Zinc, and magnesium are necessary for testosterone production and are minerals for men, zinc for instance has mild AI properties.


----------



## hackskii

chi-raq nick said:


> Hey bro hackskii I need your knowledge and help on this one . I did aas 3 times, the first 2 times I recovered fine with no pct but I did a cycle from march until may so 3 months of sustanon 250 ,500 every week and then 30 days of 50 winstrol after that I did a 3 week of pct of Clomid and I thought I was fine but then like a idiot without knowing I started to put the rs-transdermal gel for a month without knowing that one also shuts you down.
> 
> once I started to wake up with no morning wood I did 5000 hcg and followed by 2 weeks of nolva , but I stopped the nolva cause it killed my libido and my erection worse then being shut down . Now that I quit the nolva and I noticed better nocturnal erection and sometimes morning wood I started Clomid again 100/100/50/50 what do you think ? I like Clomid . I'm waiting for my blood results also. I take zinc ,avena sativa ,Dhea ,tribulus and multi vitamin. I'm taking Clomid at night 100 at once .
> 
> You much appreciated for your knowledge and help , Respect.


Well, if you are getting night time erections, morning wood, can keep and maintain an erection, ejaculate then probably you will be fine on your own.

But if you are having problems with those and have a dry face then chances are you probably would do some clomid, 3 weeks probably would be enough.

Knowing your numbers would tell a bigger picture, but numbers only tell half the story, some guys like myself have lower end of normal numbers yet feel totally fine.

A good endo doctor asks you questions, then looks at numbers.

If the numbers are low and you have problems, then it is likely you have some hypogonadal issues.

If your numbers are normal, yet you don't feel quite right, they wont do anything.

If your numbers are low and you feel fine, they wont do anything.


----------



## chi-raq nick

hackskii said:


> Well, if you are getting night time erections, morning wood, can keep and maintain an erection, ejaculate then probably you will be fine on your own.
> 
> But if you are having problems with those and have a dry face then chances are you probably would do some clomid, 3 weeks probably would be enough.
> 
> Knowing your numbers would tell a bigger picture, but numbers only tell half the story, some guys like myself have lower end of normal numbers yet feel totally fine.
> 
> A good endo doctor asks you questions, then looks at numbers.
> 
> If the numbers are low and you have problems, then it is likely you have some hypogonadal issues.
> 
> If your numbers are normal, yet you don't feel quite right, they wont do anything.
> 
> If your numbers are low and you feel fine, they wont do anything.


Thank you for your reply . I'm able to do all of that and I don't have dry skin but my libido is like a yo-yo effect ,sometimes is there sometimes is not also my morning woods are like that but nocturnal are always there . My libido its not like it used to be before the cycle but I have a feeling that my anxietys are getting the best of me also when it comes to sex .

So I just started Clomid 2 days ago and I'm gonna do 100/50/50 like you said . I know its been 3 months but how long after the pct I should feel normal like I was before the cycle ?

Thanks for your advice and god bless you and your family.


----------



## hackskii

chi-raq nick said:


> Thank you for your reply . I'm able to do all of that and I don't have dry skin but my libido is like a yo-yo effect ,sometimes is there sometimes is not also my morning woods are like that but nocturnal are always there . My libido its not like it used to be before the cycle but I have a feeling that my anxietys are getting the best of me also when it comes to sex .
> 
> So I just started Clomid 2 days ago and I'm gonna do 100/50/50 like you said . I know its been 3 months but how long after the pct I should feel normal like I was before the cycle ?
> 
> Thanks for your advice and god bless you and your family.


Could take up to a year, but I doubt that is the case here.

I would totally recommend some Vitamin D in there at 5000iu ED.

I notice more oily face and night time erections with this one.

ZMA at night would support testosterone production as well.

Other than that, your own mind will cause issues with sex if you fixate on that, and that added anxiety is not really doing much good, just try and relax and know that within a week your LH and FSH numbers should rise considerably.

Just relax, it will only get better.

My brother notices more night time wood eating pumpkin seeds, they have:

Oleic acid, amino acids tryptophan, and glutamate, niacin, vitamin E, thiamin, riboflavin, niacin, pantothenic acid, vitamin B-6 (pyridoxine) and folates, copper, manganese, potassium, calcium, iron, magnesium, zinc and selenium, they also have other things.

But my point is that the magnesium and zinc support testosterone production, so this may be the reason why he notices more night time erections when he eats pumpkin seeds.


----------



## chi-raq nick

hackskii said:


> Could take up to a year, but I doubt that is the case here.
> 
> I would totally recommend some Vitamin D in there at 5000iu ED.
> 
> I notice more oily face and night time erections with this one.
> 
> ZMA at night would support testosterone production as well.
> 
> Other than that, your own mind will cause issues with sex if you fixate on that, and that added anxiety is not really doing much good, just try and relax and know that within a week your LH and FSH numbers should rise considerably.
> 
> Just relax, it will only get better.
> 
> My brother notices more night time wood eating pumpkin seeds, they have:
> 
> Oleic acid, amino acids tryptophan, and glutamate, niacin, vitamin E, thiamin, riboflavin, niacin, pantothenic acid, vitamin B-6 (pyridoxine) and folates, copper, manganese, potassium, calcium, iron, magnesium, zinc and selenium, they also have other things.
> 
> But my point is that the magnesium and zinc support testosterone production, so this may be the reason why he notices more night time erections when he eats pumpkin seeds.


Thank you for the advice brother . Once I get the results I put them up here so you can see cause I dont think my doctor knows anything , imagine he said let's just do testostrone test and I told him no I need everything cause that could be fine and everything else could be out of whack cause I don't feel depressed ,im not tired or fatigued and I got motivation to do everything so it does not seems like low test symptoms.


----------



## 19072

Hacks I.need some advice on a hard pct.

I came of gear 5 weeks ago. 12 weeks 300npp/600prop then cruised 20weeks of 300test with 40mg Haloteston for last 4wks. Day of last jab I also took 60mg dbol for two days. (Had a comp need the extra weight)

I didn't do pct. (Stupid I know as I've always ran pct)

4weeks later I have just started suffering ed

What would be your advise. Back on test with hcg and a heavy pct at end. Or start heavy pct asap?

How would I run a good pct.

Thanks bro


----------



## hackskii

herc said:


> Hacks I.need some advice on a hard pct.
> 
> I came of gear 5 weeks ago. 12 weeks 300npp/600prop then cruised 20weeks of 300test with 40mg Haloteston for last 4wks. Day of last jab I also took 60mg dbol for two days. (Had a comp need the extra weight)
> 
> I didn't do pct. (Stupid I know as I've always ran pct)
> 
> 4weeks later I have just started suffering ed
> 
> What would be your advise. Back on test with hcg and a heavy pct at end. Or start heavy pct asap?
> 
> How would I run a good pct.
> 
> Thanks bro


PCT now, as you have been on for 32 weeks.

I would do the doctors protocol if it was me.


----------



## ajb1986

hackskii said:


> I would be willing to bet that if you can ejaculate you can recover.
> 
> Just the method might change depending on what is what.


Hackskii, I'm 15 days into the PCT protocol and I'm really struggling on the clomid (50mg x 2 daily). I can't think straight at all and it's having a significant impact on me emotionally. Would you recommend that I just try to stick it out and endure another 15 days of clomid or should I drop the dose and maybe up the nolvadex dose (to 40mg)?

I'm literally counting down the days till I can stop the clomid and really struggling with everything ATM!


----------



## 19072

hackskii said:


> PCT now, as you have been on for 32 weeks.
> 
> I would do the doctors protocol if it was me.


Roger that boss. O just sent you a pm with the same querry. Thanks for the reply. Quick run down..

Do the hcg at 2500iu eod for 10 days then jump start with the Clomid 100mg and nolva 50mg ed??


----------



## hackskii

ajb1986 said:


> Hackskii, I'm 15 days into the PCT protocol and I'm really struggling on the clomid (50mg x 2 daily). I can't think straight at all and it's having a significant impact on me emotionally. Would you recommend that I just try to stick it out and endure another 15 days of clomid or should I drop the dose and maybe up the nolvadex dose (to 40mg)?
> 
> I'm literally counting down the days till I can stop the clomid and really struggling with everything ATM!


Drop the clomid to 50mg ED then.

If that does not do it then you will need to drop it.

Just so you know though, the symptoms you just gave are the same for androgen deficiency as well, but clomid is known to cause these sides for some men.

I get along well with it but some do not.



herc said:


> Roger that boss. O just sent you a pm with the same querry. Thanks for the reply. Quick run down..
> 
> Do the hcg at 2500iu eod for 10 days then jump start with the Clomid 100mg and nolva 50mg ed??


2500 EOD x 8 shots so that will be what 15 days?


----------



## gujkhan

hacksii i have a question can too much hcg be bad for you or delay recovery etc? I have been on for around a year used hcg at 1,000iu around 60% of the time on and when i have re started hcg i used 2,500iu 1st shot and then 1,000 per week onwards. Its my time to come off and would like to do this power pct as i want the fastest recovery, only question is can too much hcg be bad considering i have used it alot throughout or would this power pct be ok? I have currently been using 1,000iu for 6 weeks which got started off with a 2,500iu shot. Any help would be great. thanks


----------



## fray5

ajb1986 said:


> Hackskii, I'm 15 days into the PCT protocol and I'm really struggling on the clomid (50mg x 2 daily). I can't think straight at all and it's having a significant impact on me emotionally. Would you recommend that I just try to stick it out and endure another 15 days of clomid or should I drop the dose and maybe up the nolvadex dose (to 40mg)?
> 
> I'm literally counting down the days till I can stop the clomid and really struggling with everything ATM!


Hey man, I'm going through a similar situation as you. I'm 25, my testes are still atrophied 2 months after pct and I was thinking of going with the protocol you are. How has the progress been so far? Have your nuts regained and maintained their size? Do you feel better?


----------



## NO-IDEA

Hi Hackskii, just a silly question Just preparing for my blast pct, all the tools in place etc. Now when i come to prepare the HCG im using vials with the rubber stops (not single use snap tops) when im preparing and mixing the bacs water can i just put the 2ml of water straight into this vial then draw straight out and inject, then same again with the remaining 2500 iu a couple days later? what i mean is there no need to draw the 5000 iu out and into a new serile vial? obviously after the first dose is drawn out id put the ramaining 2500 iu in the fridge.


----------



## baggsy1436114680

Can this protocol be used like this, use the hcg 16 days during the clearance time after last shot and then just use clomid and nolva after?


----------



## hackskii

gujkhan said:


> hacksii i have a question can too much hcg be bad for you or delay recovery etc? I have been on for around a year used hcg at 1,000iu around 60% of the time on and when i have re started hcg i used 2,500iu 1st shot and then 1,000 per week onwards. Its my time to come off and would like to do this power pct as i want the fastest recovery, only question is can too much hcg be bad considering i have used it alot throughout or would this power pct be ok? I have currently been using 1,000iu for 6 weeks which got started off with a 2,500iu shot. Any help would be great. thanks


Wow, many questions here.

I personally would taper your gear down to like 125 a week max, see how you feel, then give it a bit of time then do the power PCT.

I pesonally would not have been a year and I would not have used 1000iu HCG for 60% of that time either.

FYI, nolva helps protect the nuts from excessive estrogen from HCG.

I have a study on that one, but you might have already got some sensitivity issues.


----------



## hackskii

baggsy said:


> Can this protocol be used like this, use the hcg 16 days during the clearance time after last shot and then just use clomid and nolva after?


It depends.

If some esters take weeks to clear, the SERMS wont spark the pituitary if androgens are still present in the system.


----------



## chi-raq nick

bro if you could help me out to read my test I would appreciated .

I am 33 ,6 ,199 pounds

Almost 3 weeks after I stopped the nolva these are my results

lh 11.2Miu/l. Normal 1.5-9.3

fsh is 2.5miu/ll. Normal is 1.6.80

Tsh 1.45 miu/l. Normal 0.40-4.50

Progesterone is 0.2 ng/ml.

Testosterone is 548 normal 250-1000

Free test 58.4pg/ml normal is 35.0-155.0 pg/ml

I'm still waiting for estradiol and my LG came flagged as high

Thank you in advance.


----------



## chi-raq nick

I'm worried about the lh that it came that high and flagged does that mean I'm still shut down or it is that high cause nolva wad stopped 16 days before I took the blood test .

should I stop Clomid I'm on second week and from 100 tapered to 50 ?


----------



## chi-raq nick

Should I be worried my LH is high ? If I stop the Clomid now and everything is my lh eventually gonna return To normal ? Sorry about freaking out bro. Should I stop the Clomid ?


----------



## chi-raq nick

Please hacski , If you could help me out with your advice I would greatly appreciated I'm losing my mind over these and I got no one to turn to for experience of aas .


----------



## hackskii

Your fine.

LH is Elivated from the clomid.

What is LG?


----------



## chi-raq nick

Oh thank you bro for replying I was about to lose it . I meant to say LH so it was a typo . I was on nolva 2 weeks before the test so I was thinking it was that for showing high lh but some guy on a different forum made me suicidal by saying from the test it looks like temporary hypogandism cause 2 weeks before nolva I did the 5000iu hcg but I'm thinking if I was primary my test would be low and lh high right ?

I haven't had no sleep since I got my results yesterday and I'm stopping the clomid since nolva dis the job and my test is normal . At the time of the test I wasnt taking any pct for 16 days but nolva got a long half life . Bro I trust you from the knowledge you have more then a doctor right now but I'm seeing a endo Monday.

here is the plan I'm gonna stop all pct and drugs until my body recovers ? do another blood test a month from now?

Much respect to you and the help you been giving is a life saver.

do you think my body is trying to regulate its self that's why the number are not matching ?


----------



## hackskii

You are fine bro.

Relax, LH is Elivated when testosterone is low, that is why the range is so broad.

Drop everything.

Take some vitamin D every day. Somewhere between 2000-5000iu ED.

ZMA will be nice and help you sleep.


----------



## chi-raq nick

I been taking everything like you recommend vitamin d ,zma and daa .

So do you think is temporary primary ? Or is just false reading cause I did the test to soon after the nolva (2 weeks)

And my test is normal free and total right?

Sorry about all the question just have no one else to turn to I got a wife and 4 kids to take care of and these is effecting me .


----------



## hackskii

You are neither primary as your testosterone is normal, and you are not secondary as your LH is normal.

You are fine, your mind is playing tricks on you.

Go have a drink and try to relax.


----------



## hackskii

You are neither primary as your testosterone is normal, and you are not secondary as your LH is normal.

You are fine, your mind is playing tricks on you.

Go have a drink and try to relax.


----------



## chi-raq nick

Thank you brother and I hope your life wishes get granted.


----------



## hackskii

chi-raq nick said:


> Thank you brother and I hope your life wishes get granted.


Thanks mate.

My wish in life is a simple one.

Happiness.

Got that one sorted already.

One reason for my patience.

I do take time for self though.

Cheers


----------



## chi-raq nick

Last time to bother you I know I said that last time but I'm serious these time lol

so why do you think my lh was elevated 11.2 from the range of 1.5-9.3 ?

Thank you

now that I remember I did take 50 mg Clomid 5 days before the bw to see if I was gonna wake up with a morning wood couldve that been the reason for lh levels to be like that only that little ?


----------



## hackskii

LH is the signal to the testicles to produce testosterone, adding in clomid lets say can double output of LH, if some clomid was still left in the system, sure it could be out of range.

But look at it this way, if your testicles were 100% recovered, then LH that high would put you probably out of range.

body is compinsating to bump up your levels even though they are normal on paper, but you might be a bit above middle of range.

If this is the case naturally, LH still will be high to bring your testosterone up to your normal levels.

I seriously doubt after weeks of being off all meds it will stay there.

As your natty levels of testosterone rise, your LH will fall.

Your testicles are probably not as sensitive as before your cycle, your body is just doing what it knows to do and that is try to maintain homeostasis.

Not to worry, its all good, trust me.


----------



## chi-raq nick

Thank you again . If you lived in Chicago drinks woulda been on me.


----------



## Cockles99

Great thread-yet more reasons to not take aas. Each to their own though. Some scary **** what this stuff can do!


----------



## chi-raq nick

Went to see the endo today and showed her the results . She said that the lh is high cause of all the meds and ,hcg at 5000iu did not cause primary cause if that was the case your test would be low and fsh would be high with the lh . Told me to go back after 1 month to do the blood work again after all the meds are out my system . She said All the meds I have taken(nolvadex,Clomid ) can cause temporary ED. I think my estradiol was low 10 in the range of 29 but she said it was ok , witch I don't think is. Do you think is low maybe that's what's giving ed ?

Thanks brother.


----------



## hackskii

Take this for your thyroid, best stuff IMO you can take, even for a healthy thyroid:

http://www.optimox.com/pics/Iodine/opt_Iodoral.htm

The other stuff, well, 1000iu HCG EOD x 8, clomid at 100mg ED for 30 days, nolva at 20mg ED for 45 days should get you right there.

If you like you can test at end of HCG just to make sure it is mid normal range.

Take the supplements especially the vitamin D so it will help the HCG work its best.


----------



## baggsy1436114680

hackskii said:


> Take this for your thyroid, best stuff IMO you can take, even for a healthy thyroid:
> 
> http://www.optimox.com/pics/Iodine/opt_Iodoral.htm
> 
> The other stuff, well, 1000iu HCG EOD x 8, clomid at 100mg ED for 30 days, nolva at 20mg ED for 45 days should get you right there.
> 
> If you like you can test at end of HCG just to make sure it is mid normal range.
> 
> Take the supplements especially the vitamin D so it will help the HCG work its best.


whats a decent dose of vitamin d to use to get the best of the hcg?


----------



## hackskii

baggsy said:


> whats a decent dose of vitamin d to use to get the best of the hcg?


I take 5000iu a day, but you wont need that much, 4000 is ok too, I just take the 5000iu because that was the dose per tab.

Love the stuff myself, get more morning wood and sex dreams, and an oily face taking that.


----------



## -aurora

prob a bit of a silly question but here it goes anyway.. What would the above protocol of hgc clomid and nolva do if your test levels were normal or in other words could this do damage/ shut you down?


----------



## hackskii

-aurora said:


> prob a bit of a silly question but here it goes anyway.. What would the above protocol of hgc clomid and nolva do if your test levels were normal or in other words could this do damage/ shut you down?


You are right, that was a silly question:lol:

Ok, seriously, probably nothing, but it would not help you with anything, and you could run a small risk of over stimulation to the leydig cells which probably would not be a good idea.


----------



## -aurora

thanks for the quick reply. I asked because im not sure if I have low test, I havnt done a blood test to confirm it yet. i done a cycle of sust and deca at the start of the year and of course like so many others done a bothed pct. i even tried again a few weeks after doing another pct. Its been 6 months since doing the gear and still all the sympthoms of low libido, erections but not strong ones, no morning wood, depression, fat gain ect ect. Is it too late to try the docs pct?


----------



## hackskii

-aurora said:


> thanks for the quick reply. I asked because im not sure if I have low test, I havnt done a blood test to confirm it yet. i done a cycle of sust and deca at the start of the year and of course like so many others done a bothed pct. i even tried again a few weeks after doing another pct. Its been 6 months since doing the gear and still all the sympthoms of low libido, erections but not strong ones, no morning wood, depression, fat gain ect ect. Is it too late to try the docs pct?


Well, although you do have the symptoms, it would be a good idea to get blood done.

Many things even including stress can mimic this, certain deficiencies in minerals can cause sub-par testosterone levels.


----------



## -aurora

i have ordered all the meds anyway so i will have them on hand soon. Ill just have to bite the bullet and go to the doctor. Would the fact that its been 6 months and ive done two bothched pcts hinder the docs pct? Thanks again for the info.


----------



## hackskii

No, it wont hinder, but depending on where you are at, this will change the protocol.

Deca is terribly suppressive, it could take some time to recover, actually up to a year.


----------



## -aurora

hackskii said:


> No, it wont hinder, but depending on where you are at, this will change the protocol.
> 
> Deca is terribly suppressive, it could take some time to recover, actually up to a year.


in what way would the protocol change? what would your advice be then if my bloods do confirm low test.


----------



## hackskii

-aurora said:


> in what way would the protocol change? what would your advice be then if my bloods do confirm low test.


Well, beings that you can get an erection tells me that you will have some testosterone.

If you are just in the low range perhaps just some clomid, if you have testosterone levels of a girl, then HCG, clomid, and nolva.

Depending on how deep you are suppressed then this could change the length of the protocol, and also the amount of dosing of HCG.


----------



## -aurora

hackskii said:


> Well, beings that you can get an erection tells me that you will have some testosterone.
> 
> If you are just in the low range perhaps just some clomid, if you have testosterone levels of a girl, then HCG, clomid, and nolva.
> 
> Depending on how deep you are suppressed then this could change the length of the protocol, and also the amount of dosing of HCG.


I guess the only real way to go about it is a blood test otherwise its just a guessing game. Thanks again for the info, you definetly know your stuff and are one of a few not to condesend or ignore noobs like myself, much appriciated.


----------



## hackskii

-aurora said:


> I guess the only real way to go about it is a blood test otherwise its just a guessing game. Thanks again for the info, you definetly know your stuff and are one of a few not to condesend or ignore noobs like myself, much appriciated.


Well, thanks for the kind words.

I appreciate that, but it is not my nature to be condescending, nor am harsh, I am here to help guys out.


----------



## -aurora

just another question should i start to see signs of returning to normal after the shots of hcg (ie: normal energy, good mood, erections etc?) and is this a sign its working and its time for the serms to take over?

Also I am going to shoot the hcg I/M I know you prefer sub q due to less scar tissue but is it ok to do it I/M

Im going to run:

hcg eod 2500iu (x8)

clomid 100mg for 30 days

nolva 20mg for 45 days

vitamin e 5000iu every day

Does that look ok?


----------



## infernal0988

Hope you dont mind just copied the protocol from the first page into a word document


----------



## hackskii

-aurora said:


> just another question should i start to see signs of returning to normal after the shots of hcg (ie: normal energy, good mood, erections etc?) and is this a sign its working and its time for the serms to take over?
> 
> Also I am going to shoot the hcg I/M I know you prefer sub q due to less scar tissue but is it ok to do it I/M
> 
> Im going to run:
> 
> hcg eod 2500iu (x8)
> 
> clomid 100mg for 30 days
> 
> nolva 20mg for 45 days
> 
> vitamin e 5000iu every day
> 
> Does that look ok?


Yes, that is fine, but if you are within range and blood verifies this, then no, I would not do that.

Get some blood so we know where you are at, this will change what I would suggest.

Vitamin D would be the 5000iu.

- - - Updated - - -



infernal0988 said:


> Hope you dont mind just copied the protocol from the first page into a word document


That is fine.


----------



## -aurora

I'm just back from a visit to the doc, haven't been to her in about 6 years as I have a work doc now and cant go to him with this for obvious reasons. i went in and explained all my symptoms of low test but all she could say was its stressed related and that i didn't need a blood test. With that said i just leveled with her and told her about the ASS. Fair play to her for being professional and not giving me a condescending speech or anything but she did however admit she had little to no experience with steroids. Once i had spilled the beans she indeed suggested a blood test and it will be back within a week. it will be interesting to see what her suggested treatment will be as she did mention i may have to go to an endo.

As soon as i get the results I will post them for your thoughts.


----------



## -aurora

hackskii said:


> Yes, that is fine, but if you are within range and blood verifies this, then no, I would not do that.
> 
> Get some blood so we know where you are at, this will change what I would suggest.
> 
> Vitamin D would be the 5000iu.
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> 
> That is fine.


ok so i got a call today from the doc and he said my testosterone level was normal and that it was 16. From google i can see the refrence range in nmol/l 10- 35/40. From this I can conclude i am in the low end of normal. What would you recommend i do


----------



## hackskii

-aurora said:


> ok so i got a call today from the doc and he said my testosterone level was normal and that it was 16. From google i can see the refrence range in nmol/l 10- 35/40. From this I can conclude i am in the low end of normal. What would you recommend i do


What time was your test taken?

How long ago was your last use of gear?


----------



## -aurora

hackskii said:


> What time was your test taken?
> 
> How long ago was your last use of gear?


test was taken at 1145am. Its been about 6 months


----------



## 19072

herc said:


> Hacks I.need some advice on a hard pct.
> 
> I came of gear 5 weeks ago. 12 weeks 300npp/600prop then cruised 20weeks of 300test with 40mg Haloteston for last 4wks. Day of last jab I also took 60mg dbol for two days. (Had a comp need the extra weight)
> 
> I didn't do pct. (Stupid I know as I've always ran pct)
> 
> 4weeks later I have just started suffering ed
> 
> What would be your advise. Back on test with hcg and a heavy pct at end. Or start heavy pct asap?
> 
> How would I run a good pct.
> 
> Thanks bro


Just an update. If you lived in Belfast hacks I'd have bought you a pint!

I followed the docs protocal.

Finished the hcg last week.

I have another 13days Clomid and 20days nolva.

I now have a good fat set of swingers lol. No more ed as soon as the Mrs touches him he is ready to go lol..

I will wait a while before I go back on. And tbh I think all ill ever use again is prop/var cycles.


----------



## -aurora

hackskii said:


> What time was your test taken?
> 
> How long ago was your last use of gear?


Would you recommend i do the docs pct?


----------



## -aurora

anyone?


----------



## hackskii

At 16 taken at the time you took your test you are within range.

That is not low end of normal as if you took your test at 7 in the morning your numbers would be even higher.

Have you ever used gear before?

Do you sun tan?

Have you tried supplementing vitamin D at 5000iu ED?

How is your sleep?

Are you stressed?

Do you take scrip drugs?


----------



## -aurora

hackskii said:


> At 16 taken at the time you took your test you are within range.
> 
> That is not low end of normal as if you took your test at 7 in the morning your numbers would be even higher.
> 
> Have you ever used gear before?
> 
> Do you sun tan?
> 
> Have you tried supplementing vitamin D at 5000iu ED?
> 
> How is your sleep?
> 
> Are you stressed?
> 
> Do you take scrip drugs?


never used gear before, that was my first cycle,

dont tan

just started supplementing vit d

sleep varies some nights i can find it hard to get to sleep.

no script drugs.

stressed a bit yes because of the ed and low to zero sex drive, also until i got the blood test i had thought my test was much lower.

I know its not in my head though because when i do get an erection and ejeculate there is very little sperm.


----------



## Carlsberg

@hackskii

thank you for for all your knowledge and input on this subject. I am about to prepare myself to come off self srcipted trt (100-150mg prop-150-300mg Masteron) the last 2 years and the same but with enanthate instead of prop for 3 years. I initially felt great and thought on paper this would be the perfect hrt with masteron giving me some anti e protection and dosages being low. My nuts have shrunk and are now large brazil nuts sized I would sa easily 30-35% of volume has gone. I think thats probably when it started to loose its benefit. I started to always have very soft erections probably dut to e2. I started adding small doses of hcg in at 125iu twice per week. any more would give me gyno symptons.

I also took GH which I believe also made libido worse.

I started to come off and its three weeks ago since last injection and I am on Clomid and aromasin 100/25mg ed in two dosages.

What was strange was that a week after I stopped AAS and gh (actually peps thats week) I woke up for two days in a row with massive morning wood and felt great. but now I feel nothing! After reading the docs protocol I decided to go back on 100mg prop ew until my hcg supplies arrive and then start the protocol. I will stay on clomid and aromasin until then maybe at a reduce dosage. then wait 3 days from last injection of prop (I do ed injections at 15mg each). Then start the protocol. I am also currently trying to work out a pep/gh protocol to run while on pct but workout days only to avoid libido (prolactin) sides.

Any comments would be appreciated!


----------



## JuiCed-uK

Hey Hacksii, thanks for all the info here. It was a really good read. Just have a few questions that I've thought up from my limited knowledge if you don't mind answering them.

Wouldn't using HCG at the stated dose cause elevated Oestrogen? And isn't elevated Oestrogen is one of the main inhibitors of restoring HPTA? So wouldn't it be least effective to use such a high dose? However I do understand your point of kick starting our testosterone production, so would you recommend running an AI for the first 2-3 weeks of the PCT thus giving us less Oestrogen to suppress our testosterone?

I've been off a 6 month cycle for about 2 months now. The first month off I used Ostarine at 8mg per day (so you could say I was still on) and the second month I haven't touched anything. I'm looking to start my PCT this week. However I do feel that I have recovered a little already without any PCT. I can tell my test is still low but I can still get erections when needed but very rarely do I "feel like it". Other than that I don't feel any other low test sides. I'm thinking that I wouldn't need such an aggressive PCT. However, as I already have everything (Nolva, Clomid, HCG, A-dex and also some D-AA, Vit E ect) is there any reason not to use your PCT over a simple Nolva/Clomid protocol?


----------



## hackskii

Carlsberg said:


> @hackskii
> 
> thank you for for all your knowledge and input on this subject. I am about to prepare myself to come off self srcipted trt (100-150mg prop-150-300mg Masteron) the last 2 years and the same but with enanthate instead of prop for 3 years. I initially felt great and thought on paper this would be the perfect hrt with masteron giving me some anti e protection and dosages being low. My nuts have shrunk and are now large brazil nuts sized I would sa easily 30-35% of volume has gone. I think thats probably when it started to loose its benefit. I started to always have very soft erections probably dut to e2. I started adding small doses of hcg in at 125iu twice per week. any more would give me gyno symptons.
> 
> I also took GH which I believe also made libido worse.
> 
> I started to come off and its three weeks ago since last injection and I am on Clomid and aromasin 100/25mg ed in two dosages.
> 
> What was strange was that a week after I stopped AAS and gh (actually peps thats week) I woke up for two days in a row with massive morning wood and felt great. but now I feel nothing! After reading the docs protocol I decided to go back on 100mg prop ew until my hcg supplies arrive and then start the protocol. I will stay on clomid and aromasin until then maybe at a reduce dosage. then wait 3 days from last injection of prop (I do ed injections at 15mg each). Then start the protocol. I am also currently trying to work out a pep/gh protocol to run while on pct but workout days only to avoid libido (prolactin) sides.
> 
> Any comments would be appreciated!


You have a few options here.

Low dose each week something like 60 to 70mg test, and the use of a SERM.

This will take months to recover but wont crash.

Power PCT where you will need 20,000iu HCG, 60 clomid tabs at 50mg each, 45 nolva tabs at 20mg each, and follow doctors protocol, although I do endorse the supplements that support testosterone in men.

Finally low dose TRT, HCG in the mix, along with clomid and nolva lower doses for longer periods of time

All ways are fine, just as long as your get testicular function most of the other stuff you will have licked.


----------



## hackskii

JuiCed-uK said:


> Hey Hacksii, thanks for all the info here. It was a really good read. Just have a few questions that I've thought up from my limited knowledge if you don't mind answering them.
> 
> Wouldn't using HCG at the stated dose cause elevated Oestrogen? And isn't elevated Oestrogen is one of the main inhibitors of restoring HPTA? So wouldn't it be least effective to use such a high dose? However I do understand your point of kick starting our testosterone production, so would you recommend running an AI for the first 2-3 weeks of the PCT thus giving us less Oestrogen to suppress our testosterone?
> 
> I've been off a 6 month cycle for about 2 months now. The first month off I used Ostarine at 8mg per day (so you could say I was still on) and the second month I haven't touched anything. I'm looking to start my PCT this week. However I do feel that I have recovered a little already without any PCT. I can tell my test is still low but I can still get erections when needed but very rarely do I "feel like it". Other than that I don't feel any other low test sides. I'm thinking that I wouldn't need such an aggressive PCT. However, as I already have everything (Nolva, Clomid, HCG, A-dex and also some D-AA, Vit E ect) is there any reason not to use your PCT over a simple Nolva/Clomid protocol?


HCG does tend to have estrogenic sides but nolva actually protects the leydig cells so that wont be a problem there, and also gyno symptoms.

If you can get and maintain an erection, chances are probably just 3 weeks of clomid might do the trick.

But yes, you only use enough HCG to get testicular function, after all, you don't use a sledge hammer to put in tacking nails now do you?


----------



## JuiCed-uK

hackskii said:


> HCG does tend to have estrogenic sides but nolva actually protects the leydig cells so that wont be a problem there, and also gyno symptoms.
> 
> If you can get and maintain an erection, chances are probably just 3 weeks of clomid might do the trick.
> 
> But yes, you only use enough HCG to get testicular function, after all, you don't use a sledge hammer to put in tacking nails now do you?


Nolva may protect the leydig cells but that's not the problem. Doesn't Oestrogen suppress testosterone? And that amount of HCG would induce a huge increase in Oestrogen therefore suppressing your natty test making the PCT useless unless an AI is present. Sorry if im way off track, im just trying to educate my self


----------



## hackskii

JuiCed-uK said:


> Nolva may protect the leydig cells but that's not the problem. Doesn't Oestrogen suppress testosterone? And that amount of HCG would induce a huge increase in Oestrogen therefore suppressing your natty test making the PCT useless unless an AI is present. Sorry if im way off track, im just trying to educate my self


No, HCG directly stimulates the leydig cells to produce testosterone directly, all the estrogen in the world can not stop the hormone that stimulates the leydig cells to produce that, it is direct stimulation, even during a cycle.

Now to be fair, it would affect the pituitary in a negative way but with the USE of the SERMS, that again is not a problem.


----------



## JuiCed-uK

hackskii said:


> No, HCG directly stimulates the leydig cells to produce testosterone directly, all the estrogen in the world can not stop the hormone that stimulates the leydig cells to produce that, it is direct stimulation, even during a cycle.
> 
> Now to be fair, it would affect the pituitary in a negative way but with the USE of the SERMS, that again is not a problem.


That actually makes sense. Thanks. From the board I come from everyone is against HCG in a PCT so just wanted to clear a few things up


----------



## hackskii

JuiCed-uK said:


> That actually makes sense. Thanks. From the board I come from everyone is against HCG in a PCT so just wanted to clear a few things up


Well, if you do not have testicular function post cycle, your recovery will be compromised and take longer.

Or, let me put it another way, you go on a long cycle, you use very suppressive compounds like deca, for lets say 6 months and you did not use HCG.

Your recovery could take up to a year, even with clomid or SERMS, and inhibiting estrogen at this point is pointless because you are not making any testosterone to convert to estrogen anyway.

Ok, so now we have a problem, even with the use of SERMS it may take weeks for the little bit of LH to go to the testicles, and in effect the no stimulation can cause further testicular atrophy.

Here is another problem.

Once atrophy is in play, the little bit of stimulation from LH once it comes along the nuts wont respond.

Only after enough stimulation will the testicles allow to function, but if LH takes weeks or longer to come into play, you just lengthened your recovery.

So, you use HCG during your PCT if it was not used during, you return testicular function and in the couple of weeks with bolus HCG injections the testicles are now firing within natty range from the over-stimulation of HCG.

Now it is the use of the SERMS to hand off the baton to the nuts to keep firing.

I also do not agree using an AI during the PCT as you will drive estrogen too low causing all kinds of other problems like lipid profile issues, stiff joints, erectile dysfunction, and you wont push the HPTA any faster using an AI than you would with a SERM and in fact less.

So, anyone that tells you that using HCG during PCT hinders recovery, they have no concept of the bigger picture which happens to be testicular function being the first and foremost importance for recovery period.

If you only had HCG, then you could recovery faster.

Pituitary can take as little as 2 months to come on-board, the testicles up to a year.

Now, which one would you suggest needs to be first, the horse, or the cart?


----------



## B3NNY

Im on week 5 of my 10 week cycle and am just started to get my pct together, would the above protocol be correct for my cycle or is it a little bit to powerful?

Currently cycling

600mg sus pw

150mg trentest eod

winny 80mg ed

adex 0.5mg e3d

Also there seems to be many conflicts on when pct should be started, opinions on mine?

Yes i am a n00b but please dont flame me, at least im trying to do things correctly.

Regards.


----------



## Carlsberg

thank you so much Hacksi will gie the power pct a go in two weeks when everything is in stock! Oh can I not replace nolva with aromasin?



hackskii said:


> You have a few options here.
> 
> Low dose each week something like 60 to 70mg test, and the use of a SERM.
> 
> This will take months to recover but wont crash.
> 
> Power PCT where you will need 20,000iu HCG, 60 clomid tabs at 50mg each, 45 nolva tabs at 20mg each, and follow doctors protocol, although I do endorse the supplements that support testosterone in men.
> 
> Finally low dose TRT, HCG in the mix, along with clomid and nolva lower doses for longer periods of time
> 
> All ways are fine, just as long as your get testicular function most of the other stuff you will have licked.


----------



## hackskii

B3NNY said:


> Im on week 5 of my 10 week cycle and am just started to get my pct together, would the above protocol be correct for my cycle or is it a little bit to powerful?
> 
> Currently cycling
> 
> 600mg sus pw
> 
> 150mg trentest eod
> 
> winny 80mg ed
> 
> adex 0.5mg e3d
> 
> Also there seems to be many conflicts on when pct should be started, opinions on mine?
> 
> Yes i am a n00b but please dont flame me, at least im trying to do things correctly.
> 
> Regards.


600mg sust would take just about a month to clear.

Start it 4 weeks from last jab of sust.


----------



## B3NNY

hackskii said:


> 600mg sust would take just about a month to clear.
> 
> Start it 4 weeks from last jab of sust.


And the protocol would suit the needs of my cycle?

Regards


----------



## hackskii

B3NNY said:


> And the protocol would suit the needs of my cycle?
> 
> Regards


Not sure what your cycle was/is.

Clearance time has to do with the ester and amounts you take.


----------



## nosion

Hi. I was hoping for some feedback from Hackskii for this one:

Blood test 8.May:

Total testosterone: 14.2 (8.0-35.0)

Free testosterone: 2.8* (3.0-14.7)

SHBG: 51 (8-60)

S-LH 6.0 (1.0-12)

S-FSH 3.0 (1.0-12)

Blood test 8.October:

Total testosterone: 15.7 (8.0-35.0)

Free testosterone: 3.7 (3.0-14.7)

SHBG: 43 (8-60)

S-LH 5.5 (1.0-12)

S-FSH 1.9 (1.0-12)

S-Progesterone 2.6 < 3.0

S-Estrogen 0.15 (0.06-0.14)

Numbers are improving really slowly, I have suffered with depression, brainfog, dry skin, erectile dysfunction for 1 year now. Never done any PCT. Doctors and endocrinologist will only put me on TRT or wait it out. Iam 23years old.

I really need som help on this one. Any suggestions?


----------



## hackskii

nosion said:


> Hi. I was hoping for some feedback from Hackskii for this one:
> 
> Blood test 8.May:
> 
> Total testosterone: 14.2 (8.0-35.0)
> 
> Free testosterone: 2.8* (3.0-14.7)
> 
> SHBG: 51 (8-60)
> 
> S-LH 6.0 (1.0-12)
> 
> S-FSH 3.0 (1.0-12)
> 
> Blood test 8.October:
> 
> Total testosterone: 15.7 (8.0-35.0)
> 
> Free testosterone: 3.7 (3.0-14.7)
> 
> SHBG: 43 (8-60)
> 
> S-LH 5.5 (1.0-12)
> 
> S-FSH 1.9 (1.0-12)
> 
> S-Progesterone 2.6 < 3.0
> 
> S-Estrogen 0.15 (0.06-0.14)
> 
> Numbers are improving really slowly, I have suffered with depression, brainfog, dry skin, erectile dysfunction for 1 year now. Never done any PCT. Doctors and endocrinologist will only put me on TRT or wait it out. Iam 23years old.
> 
> I really need som help on this one. Any suggestions?


Are you on TRT now?

Your estrogen is a bit high, that will drive up SHBG some, then lower Free T.

But notice how your LH is dropping some and your testosterone is going up some, this is because your nuts are getting more sensitive to LH.

Your numbers are moving, but I probably would take some supplements that support your testosterone some.

ZMA

1 cod liver tab

boron

5000iu vitamin D

A really low dose AI probably wont hurt you as you are out of range.

Could be just above a bit too much aromitization going on.

Do you have alot of bellyfat?


----------



## nosion

Iam not on TRT, I did about a 9month cycle of prohormones almost 2 years ago. I have not taken any blood tests up untill now. Still not recovered as you see.

Yes i have a lot of bellyfat. I do take ZMA, 5000ui vitamin D daily.

I have not taken any PCT meds after this cycle, therefor Iam not sure if the body is producing enough Testosterone or LH, + I got the aromitization going on.

Would adding some clomid do any harm ?


----------



## B3NNY

hackskii said:


> Not sure what your cycle was/is.
> 
> Clearance time has to do with the ester and amounts you take.


my cycle is..

600mg sus pw

150mg trentest eod

80mg winny (come off this now as I was getting stomach discomfort)

0.5 Adex e3d

as you mentioned I will start my pct 4 weeks after last sus jab, is the above protocol above to aggressive for my cycle? If so what would you suggest?

currently experiancing slightly lower sex drive but can get wood when needed!

regards


----------



## hackskii

nosion said:


> Iam not on TRT, I did about a 9month cycle of prohormones almost 2 years ago. I have not taken any blood tests up untill now. Still not recovered as you see.
> 
> Yes i have a lot of bellyfat. I do take ZMA, 5000ui vitamin D daily.
> 
> I have not taken any PCT meds after this cycle, therefor Iam not sure if the body is producing enough Testosterone or LH, + I got the aromitization going on.
> 
> Would adding some clomid do any harm ?


Well, looks like your estrogen is a bit high and probably inhibiting some feedback to the HPTA.

I would try low dose AI using adex @ .5mg every 3 to 4 days.

Start out every 4 days and then go from there.

If you get more night time erections then good.

could be a bit of aromatase activity going on.


----------



## hackskii

B3NNY said:


> my cycle is..
> 
> 600mg sus pw
> 
> 150mg trentest eod
> 
> 80mg winny (come off this now as I was getting stomach discomfort)
> 
> 0.5 Adex e3d
> 
> as you mentioned I will start my pct 4 weeks after last sus jab, is the above protocol above to aggressive for my cycle? If so what would you suggest?
> 
> currently experiancing slightly lower sex drive but can get wood when needed!
> 
> regards


How long was the cycle for?

Sorry for the questions, that would gauge how much HCG I would suggest.


----------



## B3NNY

hackskii said:


> How long was the cycle for?
> 
> Sorry for the questions, that would gauge how much HCG I would suggest.


No problem, I'm all for listening and learning.

Cycle will run for 10 weeks.

What's the general rule of thumb for how much pct should be used compared to how long cycle was run etc..?

Regards


----------



## newby22

hackskii, been on cycle for 7 months. used test/deca for 12 weeks then test/tritren for 12 weeks.. came off two weeks an wanted to stop but a friend told me to carry on with test for a bit longer say 4 weeks to avoid crashing too hard.. have nolva clomid and hcg to hand... meed some good advice on when to start an doses am timing.. was told ur the man to speak to for pct.. any advise will b very much appreciated had lots of other comments from people just wondered what urs would be?? cheers


----------



## hackskii

B3NNY said:


> No problem, I'm all for listening and learning.
> 
> Cycle will run for 10 weeks.
> 
> What's the general rule of thumb for how much pct should be used compared to how long cycle was run etc..?
> 
> Regards


Well, that depends really.

If HCG is used during the cycle the PCT probably will be a bit shorter.

If not then it depends on the compounds, and the time on.

Short cycles may not even need HCG.

Longer cycles probably will need HCG.

Deca, tren and other drugs probably will need HCG and more of it.

It all is about testicular function, and even that has an area of how well you respond.

Sorry for the vague answer but no cookie cutter approach works for all, some crash, some do not.

Its the guys that say its all in your head you need to steer clear of.


----------



## hackskii

newby22 said:


> hackskii, been on cycle for 7 months. used test/deca for 12 weeks then test/tritren for 12 weeks.. came off two weeks an wanted to stop but a friend told me to carry on with test for a bit longer say 4 weeks to avoid crashing too hard.. have nolva clomid and hcg to hand... meed some good advice on when to start an doses am timing.. was told ur the man to speak to for pct.. any advise will b very much appreciated had lots of other comments from people just wondered what urs would be?? cheers


Could run the test lower dose for 2 more weeks at 200mg then start the Power PCT 10 days from last jab of the 200mg test.


----------



## B3NNY

hackskii said:


> Well, that depends really.
> 
> If HCG is used during the cycle the PCT probably will be a bit shorter.
> 
> If not then it depends on the compounds, and the time on.
> 
> Short cycles may not even need HCG.
> 
> Longer cycles probably will need HCG.
> 
> Deca, tren and other drugs probably will need HCG and more of it.
> 
> It all is about testicular function, and even that has an area of how well you respond.
> 
> Sorry for the vague answer but no cookie cutter approach works for all, some crash, some do not.
> 
> Its the guys that say its all in your head you need to steer clear of.


Would you say that the power pct would be what I would need for my pct? The lads may have shrunk a little not really noticeable though but sex drive has sufferd abit as its pretty low.

Just started week 6.


----------



## hackskii

Should be ok.

You are week 6 in and having issues with libido?


----------



## newby22

Is hcg 1500 Iu a week's for 3 weeks 20 mg nolva daily for 45 days. Clomid 50 mg daily for 30 days sufficient enough for pct on very long cycle but last weeks of cycle have only been taking 250 mg test500 a week for the last 4 weeks??


----------



## hackskii

newby22 said:


> Is hcg 1500 Iu a week's for 3 weeks 20 mg nolva daily for 45 days. Clomid 50 mg daily for 30 days sufficient enough for pct on very long cycle but last weeks of cycle have only been taking 250 mg test500 a week for the last 4 weeks??


Not enough HCG.


----------



## newby22

How much do I need exactly got it hcg ina box 3 vials 1500 in each can orper more how much will I need an how many days after last jab should I start an should I do the power pct eod for 16 days 8 shots? At say 1000iu a time?


----------



## newby22

?


----------



## hackskii

newby22 said:


> How much do I need exactly got it hcg ina box 3 vials 1500 in each can orper more how much will I need an how many days after last jab should I start an should I do the power pct eod for 16 days 8 shots? At say 1000iu a time?


What was your cycle, how long, how much, which compounds?


----------



## newby22

Did test 500/ deca cycle 12 weeks.. straight into test 500/tritren 12 weeks cycle 2weeks off due to being ill.. now been on test500 3 weeks at 500 mg a week tapering down to 250 a week for 3 more weeks... ?


----------



## newby22

?


----------



## hackskii

newby22 said:


> Did test 500/ deca cycle 12 weeks.. straight into test 500/tritren 12 weeks cycle 2weeks off due to being ill.. now been on test500 3 weeks at 500 mg a week tapering down to 250 a week for 3 more weeks... ?


20,000iu of HCG, 45 tabs of nolva @ 20mg, and 60 50mg clomid tabs.

Follow the doctors protocol.


----------



## newby22

Ok cheers mate. Can u.send the like to the docs protocol.. when do I start the.hcg and do I wait 10days to start?


----------



## ItsaSecret

newby22 said:


> Ok cheers mate. Can u.send the like to the docs protocol.. when do I start the.hcg and do I wait 10days to start?


its stickied bro


----------



## newby22

Sounds stupid how do I find the.sticky LOL


----------



## mojo-jojo

top of the thread lad


----------



## syanx

I'm looking for some advice on how to run my PCT and if I need to use HCG again. I was on a 15 week cycle of 800mg Test C, 400mg Tren E and 400mg Mast E. I ran 500iu of HCG twice a week whilst on cycle.

The problem is I only left a two week gap before started my PCT(docs protocol) and I fear I may have wasted the effects of the HCG and Clomid. My last injection of AAS was 5 weeks ago. Shall I just keep on with Clomid and Nolva for the next few weeks and hopefully recover or should I run HCG again?

I've also been taking Zinc, and Vitamin D 5000iu & E 1000iu.

My libido is low but I can get an erection and ejaculate no problem, although sometimes the erection isn't the strongest.


----------



## hackskii

Did you run the HCG all the way to the start day of your PCT?

You started 2 weeks from last injections of AAS?

You should have waited longer if that was the case and keep using the HCG in there.

If you can get an erection and ejaculate you probably are not too far off the mark, so yes clomid and nolva should be ok.

How many week into the PCT are you?

What was the total amount of HCG used?


----------



## mojogoes

Hi guys can i ask!! do you need to run hcg nolv & clomi during and after every protocol or just with heavy and prolonged ones.


----------



## hackskii

HCG during the cycle with an AI for aromitizable steroids, nolva, and clomid for PCT, unless no HCG was used during, then during PCT it will be needed to be used.


----------



## syanx

hackskii said:


> Did you run the HCG all the way to the start day of your PCT?
> 
> You started 2 weeks from last injections of AAS?
> 
> You should have waited longer if that was the case and keep using the HCG in there.
> 
> If you can get an erection and ejaculate you probably are not too far off the mark, so yes clomid and nolva should be ok.
> 
> How many week into the PCT are you?
> 
> What was the total amount of HCG used?


I ran HCG at 500iu x2 a week up to the start of PCT.

I started PCT at 2 weeks from last injection of AAS.

I completely forgot about the half-life of the esters and made some wrong calculations, wont make that mistake again!

I am on week 4 of Docs Protocol (although bear in mind that the first 2 weeks were when there was probably still AAS in my system)

The total amount of HCG during the 15 week cycle was: 13,000iu (i started HCG on week 4)

The total amount of HCG used for PCT was: 20,000iu

Thanks


----------



## mojogoes

hackskii said:


> HCG during the cycle with an AI for aromitizable steroids, nolva, and clomid for PCT, unless no HCG was used during, then during PCT it will be needed to be used.


so if hcg was used during your cycle and say nolva you don't have to run it in PCT just clomid.


----------



## hackskii

syanx said:


> I ran HCG at 500iu x2 a week up to the start of PCT.
> 
> I started PCT at 2 weeks from last injection of AAS.
> 
> I completely forgot about the half-life of the esters and made some wrong calculations, wont make that mistake again!
> 
> I am on week 4 of Docs Protocol (although bear in mind that the first 2 weeks were when there was probably still AAS in my system)
> 
> The total amount of HCG during the 15 week cycle was: 13,000iu (i started HCG on week 4)
> 
> The total amount of HCG used for PCT was: 20,000iu
> 
> Thanks


That should be fine with that.



mojogoes said:


> so if hcg was used during your cycle and say nolva you don't have to run it in PCT just clomid.


I would run both clomid and nolva for my PCT, but it is very likely that if HCG was used at 500iu twice a week during, it wont be needed in the PCT, it is ok though to use during clearance time of the gear though (HCG).


----------



## mojogoes

Quote by hackskii .......I would run both clomid and nolva for my PCT, but it is very likely that if HCG was used at 500iu twice a week during, it wont be needed in the PCT, it is ok though to use during clearance time of the gear though (HCG).

Gotcha! so is there a delay time after the last pin of aas before the onslought of aromitizable or could one also use nolva and clomid during your cycle also.

ps sorry for harping on!


----------



## hackskii

mojogoes said:


> Quote by hackskii .......I would run both clomid and nolva for my PCT, but it is very likely that if HCG was used at 500iu twice a week during, it wont be needed in the PCT, it is ok though to use during clearance time of the gear though (HCG).
> 
> Gotcha! so is there a delay time after the last pin of aas before the onslought of aromitizable or could one also use nolva and clomid during your cycle also.
> 
> ps sorry for harping on!


Clomid, and nolva for what?

To sustain the axis?

Not sure what you are asking.


----------



## mojogoes

hackskii said:


> Clomid, and nolva for what?
> 
> To sustain the axis?
> 
> Not sure what you are asking.


i guess what i'm asking is can you take hcg clomid and nolva all at the same time when on a cycle job done!.......yes / no and if no why?


----------



## hackskii

mojogoes said:


> i guess what i'm asking is can you take hcg clomid and nolva all at the same time when on a cycle job done!.......yes / no and if no why?


Yes, if HCG was not used during the cycle to keep testicular function.

If HCG is used at a certain amount during the cycle, most likely it wont be needed during PCT.


----------



## mojogoes

hackskii said:


> Yes, if HCG was not used during the cycle to keep testicular function.
> 
> If HCG is used at a certain amount during the cycle, most likely it wont be needed during PCT.


So if you were to take all 3 (HCG , CLOMID , NOLVA ) while on a cycle would this eliminate having to do PCT altogether?


----------



## hackskii

mojogoes said:


> So if you were to take all 3 (HCG , CLOMID , NOLVA ) while on a cycle would this eliminate having to do PCT altogether?


No, the use of SERMS will not stop the pituitary from shutting down.


----------



## mojogoes

hackskii said:


> No, the use of SERMS will not stop the pituitary from shutting down.


why is this so......what;s the point of its advocation while on a cycle if the pituitary shuts down


----------



## hackskii

mojogoes said:


> why is this so......what;s the point of its advocation while on a cycle if the pituitary shuts down


Who advocates this?

I do not and never have.

Nothing supports SERMS use during cycle to keep or maintain HPTA axis.


----------



## mojogoes

so if hcg does not stop the testes from shutting down while on aas why would you take it at this time but not have to take it post cycle and then have to take AI to stop the hcg sides................am i missing something here.


----------



## hackskii

mojogoes said:


> so if hcg does not stop the testes from shutting down while on aas why would you take it at this time but not have to take it post cycle and then have to take AI to stop the hcg sides................am i missing something here.


I am the one lost here.

If testicular function is the single biggest part of recovery, why would one not use it during the cycle?

If low dose during has the least sides, why not use it during?

SERMS protect the testicles from the sides of HCG as well.

Go read the sticky on Understanding PCT on this site.


----------



## mojogoes

OK!.................all this on and off aas in what can only be called very short term cycles is why people are having problems with there hormones being all over the place.........how many top pro's or good semi pro's can you tell me that have taken any prolonged time off of aas's and/or other compounds in the last 10 years? the real truth of the matter guys is they don't but what you will find most of them will do is to work closely with a specialist MD to find out what's the best/highest level of test there bodies can tolerate with out giving any "over the top sides" and this itself is after lower dose's have been taken working up to this point or the next level.

The body builds up a tolerance to ALL DRU GS even aas's if they don't kill you first DRU GS THAT IS, any one with a habit will tell you how much more there having to take to get the same buz as there very first time.........so after your test level is say happy at a 1000 /2000/3000 etc for x amount of time it will have built up a tolerance to it and then have to be heightened again for more gains etc...........but there is a limit here!!

If you asked a pro bodybuilder what his protocol was for his last PCT he would laugh in your face...........PCT'S are for people who train and never show or the average joe in the gym........yes its definitely the right way to go IF your coming off for sure but if you are you can always lower your aas levels and coast now thats coasting?


----------



## mojogoes

By the way not taking X amount of GH to a pro is akin to us taking aas's and not eating for 3 days at a time.........and even when your receptors close down there are ways of unblocking them when still on enhancements.


----------



## hackskii

mojogoes said:


> OK!.................all this on and off aas in what can only be called very short term cycles is why people are having problems with there hormones being all over the place.........how many top pro's or good semi pro's can you tell me that have taken any prolonged time off of aas's and/or other compounds in the last 10 years? the real truth of the matter guys is they don't but what you will find most of them will do is to work closely with a specialist MD to find out what's the best/highest level of test there bodies can tolerate with out giving any "over the top sides" and this itself is after lower dose's have been taken working up to this point or the next level.
> 
> The body builds up a tolerance to ALL DRU GS even aas's if they don't kill you first DRU GS THAT IS, any one with a habit will tell you how much more there having to take to get the same buz as there very first time.........so after your test level is say happy at a 1000 /2000/3000 etc for x amount of time it will have built up a tolerance to it and then have to be heightened again for more gains etc...........but there is a limit here!!
> 
> If you asked a pro bodybuilder what his protocol was for his last PCT he would laugh in your face...........PCT'S are for people who train and never show or the average joe in the gym........yes its definitely the right way to go IF your coming off for sure but if you are you can always lower your aas levels and coast now thats coasting?


Well, there is a pro that did post something to this, and although guys that cycle on and off their hormones are all over the place, some of those pro's have some serious issues.

Not sure what your point is really but you can not hold more mass than your hormones can allow, that is the reason why they never come off, they are huge and take loads of drugs to get there, and maintain.

Once they come off, they return back to normal size that their genetics accept.


----------



## ItsaSecret

mojogoes said:


> OK!.................all this on and off aas in what can only be called very short term cycles is why people are having problems with there hormones being all over the place.........*how many top pro's or good semi pro's can you tell me that have taken any prolonged time off of aas's and/or other compounds in the last 10 years?[* the real truth of the matter guys is they don't but what you will find most of them will do is to work closely with a specialist MD to find out what's the best/highest level of test there bodies can tolerate with out giving any "over the top sides" and this itself is after lower dose's have been taken working up to this point or the next level.
> 
> The body builds up a tolerance to ALL DRU GS even aas's if they don't kill you first DRU GS THAT IS, any one with a habit will tell you how much more there having to take to get the same buz as there very first time.........so after your test level is say happy at a 1000 /2000/3000 etc for x amount of time it will have built up a tolerance to it and then have to be heightened again for more gains etc...........but there is a limit here!!
> 
> If you asked a pro bodybuilder what his protocol was for his last PCT he would laugh in your face...........PCT'S are for people who train and never show or the average joe in the gym........yes its definitely the right way to go IF your coming off for sure but if you are you can always lower your aas levels and coast now thats coasting?


victor martinez when he went to jail


----------



## mojogoes

hackskii said:


> Well, there is a pro that did post something to this, and although guys that cycle on and off their hormones are all over the place, some of those pro's have some serious issues.
> 
> Not sure what your point is really but you can not hold more mass than your hormones can allow, that is the reason why they never come off, they are huge and take loads of drugs to get there, and maintain.
> 
> Once they come off, they return back to normal size that their genetics accept.


Lol....................i rest my case?


----------



## chi-raq nick

Hey hackskii , almost 3 month after pct and this is my blood work

Total T 517 348-1197

Free. T 9.9. 25.1

Lh. 7.2. 1.9-8.6

Prolactin 6.9. 4.0-16

Estradiol 21.1. 7.6-42

Shbg 52.9. 15-55.9

Still no morning wood , sex drive is ok nothing what it was before .

Do you think I'm on my way to recovery ? Do you see anything wrong in those number that I need to fix ?

Thank you brother for your help .


----------



## chi-raq nick

Mostly is the damn morning wood that's bothering me and i wonder how long more it will take to go back to normal .


----------



## Fatstuff

I had morning wood that u could chop onions on when I was on mt2 lol. so maybe pt-141 would help for a short term solution while your hormones are still out of whack.


----------



## chi-raq nick

Sorry I was new to this , what's pt-141 ?


----------



## hackskii

chi-raq nick said:


> Hey hackskii , almost 3 month after pct and this is my blood work
> 
> Total T 517 348-1197
> 
> Free. T 9.9. 25.1
> 
> Lh. 7.2. 1.9-8.6
> 
> Prolactin 6.9. 4.0-16
> 
> Estradiol 21.1. 7.6-42
> 
> Shbg 52.9. 15-55.9
> 
> Still no morning wood , sex drive is ok nothing what it was before .
> 
> Do you think I'm on my way to recovery ? Do you see anything wrong in those number that I need to fix ?
> 
> Thank you brother for your help .


What is the free T reference range?

Looks like SHBG might be a bit on the high side, if that is the case free T will be a bit on the low side.

Just 10mg of boron ED after a week test levels can elevate by up to 28% and E2 lower by 38%.

boron will help lower the SHBG some.

I would advise some vitamin D in there at 4000iu ED.

But more things going on with libido than just testosterone, tons of brain chemicals have to be there.


----------



## chi-raq nick

Thank you for the reply and I been taking vitamin d like you told me last time and I been taking boron for the past couple of days but I have to be careful cause I only got one kidney due to a gun shot wound when I was stupid and younger so I only been taking 1mg boron and avena sativa . The range of free test is 8.7 - 25.1 mine was 9.9 and I notice that shbg is high do you think eventually they will stabilize them self ?? And estrogen is ok at 21 I wonder why shbg is high ?


----------



## hackskii

chi-raq nick said:


> Thank you for the reply and I been taking vitamin d like you told me last time and I been taking boron for the past couple of days but I have to be careful cause I only got one kidney due to a gun shot wound when I was stupid and younger so I only been taking 1mg boron and avena sativa . The range of free test is 8.7 - 25.1 mine was 9.9 and I notice that shbg is high do you think eventually they will stabilize them self ?? And estrogen is ok at 21 I wonder why shbg is high ?


Well, it all is within range.

When estrogen is too high or too low this can affect libido negatively, if estrogen is too high SHBG can rise as well.

If SHBG is high, free test will be lower, yours is within range but probably not in your normal range though.


----------



## chi-raq nick

I think you right about my free test not being high enough for me . Do you think eventually they will go in to place ? It's sucks that the only days that I'm happy is when I wake up with a morning wood and its 2-3 out the week lol


----------



## hackskii

chi-raq nick said:


> I think you right about my free test not being high enough for me . Do you think eventually they will go in to place ? It's sucks that the only days that I'm happy is when I wake up with a morning wood and its 2-3 out the week lol


Trust me as you age, the morning wood will be soon forgotten and you will forget all about them.

Till you start getting them again.

I hardly ever had them, or better said not very often.

After taking Vitamin D, I started getting frequently, and almost nightly.

Its when you start getting the sex dreams that starts blowing your mind.


----------



## ajb1986

Hey hackskii, just reporting back as its been a couple of months since I finished the PCT protocol you suggested.

As a reminder, my last cycle was 19 months ago (6 weeks of tren ace & test prop), it shut me down so badly I was suicidal etc, and 19 months later I still have extremely low libido & testicular atrophy. Had many blood tests and a couple of months after my cycle, my free test (normal range 230-1000) was 280, then July of this year it was down to 220.

Following the PCT protocol & getting bloods done 2 weeks after, my free test levels were up to 384 and the boys down below do have some size back. However, my libido is still extremely low & bearing in mind Im only 26, I'm guessing my free test should be nearer to the 800 mark! Do you have any suggestions for further recovery, or do you think I'll need to resort to TRT?

Many thanks in advance!


----------



## hackskii

ajb1986 said:


> Hey hackskii, just reporting back as its been a couple of months since I finished the PCT protocol you suggested.
> 
> As a reminder, my last cycle was 19 months ago (6 weeks of tren ace & test prop), it shut me down so badly I was suicidal etc, and 19 months later I still have extremely low libido & testicular atrophy. Had many blood tests and a couple of months after my cycle, my free test (normal range 230-1000) was 280, then July of this year it was down to 220.
> 
> Following the PCT protocol & getting bloods done 2 weeks after, my free test levels were up to 384 and the boys down below do have some size back. However, my libido is still extremely low & bearing in mind Im only 26, I'm guessing my free test should be nearer to the 800 mark! Do you have any suggestions for further recovery, or do you think I'll need to resort to TRT?
> 
> Many thanks in advance!


Well, I would take some supplements that support your testosterone like zinc, magnesium, vitamin A, E, D, etc.

I notice a bit better night time erections (alot actually) with 5000iu vitamin D every day, made a big difference to me.

Could go on 50mg clomid for a few weeks and reassess things.

Perhaps something else is going on like prolactin, or estrogen?


----------



## ajb1986

Thanks for the advice Hackskii. I will try most of the above but not sure I can manage taking clomid again due to the psychological effects it has on me!

Just for additional info, I've got my full list of stats to hand:

Finished my last cycle in March 2011.

17 Aug 2012 results:

Serum LH level 1.4 iu/L

Serum FSH level 2.1 iu/L

Serum testosterone 10.9 nmol/L

Serum sex hormone binding glob 47 nmol/L

Derived free testosterone 220 pmol/L

31 Oct 2012 results:

Serum testosterone 27 nmol/L

Serum sex hormone binding glob 90 nmol/L

Derived free testosterone 364 pmol/L


----------



## fatbastard6669

What are the psychological effects of Climid? It made me only feel better and better when my sexual ability was coming back?


----------



## ajb1986

fatbastard6669 said:


> What are the psychological effects of Climid? It made me only feel better and better when my sexual ability was coming back?


The psychological effects I've experienced are extreme moodiness and a very emotional state. Several times I have burst into tears for no reason whatsoever! Also, it makes me feel cloudy-headed and not able to think properly. It does however effect people differently.

Also, when taking it after my last cycle 19 months ago, it added to the suicidal feeling I had, which was largely due to the major crash I experienced coming off cycle.


----------



## fatbastard6669

Ajb, that sounds serious, hope you are well now! I guess the feelings you are describing are more ascribable to the general physical mess-up after the cycle, especially low testosterone and DHT levels as I have experienced slightly similar effects (maybe less intense of course!). Climid does nothing for me in that matter. I noticed however that Tamoxifen (Nolva) does reduce libido and performance when I'm on it.


----------



## ajb1986

fatbastard6669 said:


> Ajb, that sounds serious, hope you are well now! I guess the feelings you are describing are more ascribable to the general physical mess-up after the cycle, especially low testosterone and DHT levels as I have experienced slightly similar effects (maybe less intense of course!). Climid does nothing for me in that matter. I noticed however that Tamoxifen (Nolva) does reduce libido and performance when I'm on it.


Thanks buddy, yeah it was really extreme & whilst the suicidal feelings only lasted a few months after my major crash, I was depressed for 1-1 1/2 years after. I feel slightly better these days (having been off for 19 months now) but have zero libido or interest in women which is a real killer for me. Last time my free test was 384 (after following the protocol) though for my age (26) I should be nearer to 800 free test. I'm hoping to get another referral to a different endocrinologist to see if they can help me out because my general sense of well-being is not a touch on what it used to be!


----------



## fatbastard6669

God luck with your treatment. In the worst case scenario, your will be prescribed a special testosterone gel you rub on your shoulder every morning. They wanted to prescribe that to me but my second test came back fantastic so they didn't. Even with the test results so good, I can feel the difference even though I'm definitely much better than just after the cycle.

However my performance is probably crap and thats why I had a long break in sex - since the cycle I haven't had one yet and it finished in April! When I was on it, I had sex with one (not very attractive) girl and I couldn't get hard fully. Then she probably felt bad about herself and told my best mate that my cock is small. Well of course it will be honey if you can't get me eager wont it! lol. However it's a real confidence killer and I am still recovering in that matter.


----------



## benki11

ajb1986 said:


> The psychological effects I've experienced are extreme moodiness and a very emotional state. Several times I have burst into tears for no reason whatsoever! Also, it makes me feel cloudy-headed and not able to think properly. It does however effect people differently.
> 
> Also, when taking it after my last cycle 19 months ago, it added to the suicidal feeling I had, which was largely due to the major crash I experienced coming off cycle.


Yep same thing happend for me after tren test cycle recently but once I stoped Clomid it was gone!!

I started to do hacskiii protocol two days ago and I am affraid of Clomid but so far nothing !

Will see maybe it not Clomid side effect maybe was just hard shutdown that makes me so emotional when on clomid !


----------



## fatbastard6669

I am sure it is more attributable to severe emotions of frustration due to the shut down as most men tend to link their identities strongly to their masculinity and sex capabilities.

Mass media in the West (as moral as we know from Leverson inquiry) reinforce those fears and feelings of inadequacy, always treating us to images of males they brand as "perfect". So it goes into vicious circle. Viagra and Prozac sellers mount their profits and thousands of otherwise perfectly healthy males become victims of pharmaceutical industry and mass media.

If I ever use steroids again, it will never be because of any frustrations or low self esteem but a conscious choice like for example to break a stagnation in muscle growth.

Be proud who you are and **** the media.


----------



## hackskii

fatbastard6669 said:


> I am sure it is more attributable to severe emotions of frustration due to the shut down as most men tend to link their identities strongly to their masculinity and sex capabilities.
> 
> Mass media in the West (as moral as we know from Leverson inquiry) reinforce those fears and feelings of inadequacy, always treating us to images of males they brand as "perfect". So it goes into vicious circle. Viagra and Prozac sellers mount their profits and thousands of otherwise perfectly healthy males become victims of pharmaceutical industry and mass media.
> 
> If I ever use steroids again, it will never be because of any frustrations or low self esteem but a conscious choice like for example to break a stagnation in muscle growth.
> 
> Be proud who you are and **** the media.


Absolutely, the media is all for feeding the consumption of the masses, to buy crap it does not need.

Look at the car commercials: power, performance, elegance, luxury, integrity, last I thought it was to move your body from point A to point B?

Some in the States buy cars to make them selves look important.


----------



## fatbastard6669

I couldn't agree more, hackskii. What about fashion. Decent quality jeans can be brought for 50-70 quid. An distill, designer jeans will cost even ten times that amount for just the badge on em...

They even made an iPhone app whose only function was displaying "this app has cost me 999 dollars". Probably popular with oil tycoons and other half witted but filthy rich basterdz.

We all contribute to it by admiring such people. Without audience, there nobodies and wannabes.


----------



## Muscle Maniac

So are you trying to say if this protocol is followed the way you mention and regarding doing a test only cycle. Time on + pct doesn't = time off. ( you can take a month break and jump back on cycling)


----------



## Jay Walker

Only way to know for sure is bloodwork. Those times are just a very rough guide.


----------



## benki11

@hackskiii

Hi mate what do you think on Mars take on Power Pct

Quote

"I don't agree with the hCG dosing and i'm very suprised that Ex Dr Scally still does, given the recent findings on the MOA of hCG.

I don't agree with the 45 day protocol either. There is a possibility that clomid may raise your test levels slightly (provisionally and only while you are taking it) for those 45 days but once you stop taking it your test levels will return to what they were before you took the clomid, so basically it may help you feel a little better but TBH most guys who take clomid (even if it does raise their test levels) actually feel worse, on top of this we come back to the age old debate of whether it actually helps recovery anyway or could it possibly even hinder recovery."

Thanks


----------



## benki11

just read through thread :drool:

And could t find much lads that actually updated their recovery process doing Power Pct , so don't know how many recoverd if any?

Hacskii do you know is there a many people recoverd followed this protocol since you started this sticky thread?

(as I do this protocol thanks to you and I will update my bloods results 2 weeks post this protocol

And it would be much nicer if more people do the same think as would benefit this thread!!)


----------



## hackskii

benki11 said:


> @hackskiii
> 
> Hi mate what do you think on Mars take on Power Pct
> 
> Quote
> 
> "I don't agree with the hCG dosing and i'm very suprised that Ex Dr Scally still does, given the recent findings on the MOA of hCG.
> 
> I don't agree with the 45 day protocol either. There is a possibility that clomid may raise your test levels slightly (provisionally and only while you are taking it) for those 45 days but once you stop taking it your test levels will return to what they were before you took the clomid, so basically it may help you feel a little better but TBH most guys who take clomid (even if it does raise their test levels) actually feel worse, on top of this we come back to the age old debate of whether it actually helps recovery anyway or could it possibly even hinder recovery."
> 
> Thanks


Well, nothing wrong with the dosing of HCG, some of that biphasic stuff is just junk science.

Cloimd is known in the endo community to work so I wont defend its success, or wont defend something that needs no defense, its track record speaks for itself.



benki11 said:


> just read through thread :drool:
> 
> And could t find much lads that actually updated their recovery process doing Power Pct , so don't know how many recoverd if any?
> 
> Hacskii do you know is there a many people recoverd followed this protocol since you started this sticky thread?
> 
> (as I do this protocol thanks to you and I will update my bloods results 2 weeks post this protocol
> 
> And it would be much nicer if more people do the same think as would benefit this thread!!)


I have only known one person to not recover.

I can give you loads of guys that have not only recovered but actually had children post cycle.

Again, track record speaks for itself and needs no defense.

Try and find one person that has not recovered after being given advice for recovery.

Good luck with that. :lol:


----------



## pariah

Guys I could do with some help designing this recovery course. I admittedly have been on for around 1.5yrs now since its just easier. But Im going to give recovery a go. I have read the OP by Hackskii. This is where I currently am. This course l'm on is 300 x test E with 300 Deca and .5 adex EOD and is due to end next Friday with the last shot. Here are my questions.

(1) Should I wait 2 weeks for the drugs to clear before starting 8 injections of HCG at 2500iu EOD or start them now?

(2) Do I take the Nolva (20mg x 45 days) and the clomid (100mg x 45 days / 12hours) at the same time as the HCG or do I take it at the end of the HCG course?

thank you so much.

P.


----------



## fatbastard6669

You can give it a go, but you do realise than after so long time on it might not be successful? Man, most people do cycles for 6-10 weeks and they still recover slowly like me. I think even my cycle wasn't responsible. It's easy to destroy the balance whether by cocaine or other drugs or excessive use of AAS and very hard to get it back, when will we all learn? When it's too late?

Good luck mate though!! Read all the advice on here and give it a go!

There's still TRT left anyway if that doesn't help.


----------



## hackskii

pariah said:


> Guys I could do with some help designing this recovery course. I admittedly have been on for around 1.5yrs now since its just easier. But Im going to give recovery a go. I have read the OP by Hackskii. This is where I currently am. This course l'm on is 300 x test E with 300 Deca and .5 adex EOD and is due to end next Friday with the last shot. Here are my questions.
> 
> (1) Should I wait 2 weeks for the drugs to clear before starting 8 injections of HCG at 2500iu EOD or start them now?
> 
> (2) Do I take the Nolva (20mg x 45 days) and the clomid (100mg x 45 days / 12hours) at the same time as the HCG or do I take it at the end of the HCG course?
> 
> thank you so much.
> 
> P.


You would start them all at the same time.

The clomid is for 30 days, nolva for 45.

It is likely though that you may not even recover, but we will see.

Make sure you take vitamin D with those as well at 5000iu ED.


----------



## Solita

hackskii said:



> You would start them all at the same time.
> 
> The clomid is for 30 days, nolva for 45.
> 
> It is likely though that you may not even recover, but we will see.
> 
> Make sure you take vitamin D with those as well at 5000iu ED.


What about pct for 14 weeks Test E 800mg and 12 weeks Deca 600mg cycle be ?

So do i start hcg after two weeks for the drugs to clear or ???


----------



## Muscle Maniac

Solita said:


> What about pct for 14 weeks Test E 800mg and 12 weeks Deca 600mg cycle be ?
> 
> So do i start hcg after two weeks for the drugs to clear or ???


Would also like to know this. 600mg test. 300mg deca though


----------



## hackskii

Solita said:


> What about pct for 14 weeks Test E 800mg and 12 weeks Deca 600mg cycle be ?
> 
> So do i start hcg after two weeks for the drugs to clear or ???


I would run the HCG during, deca at 600mg for 14 weeks can be a mother to recover from.


----------



## Development

hackskii said:


> I would run the HCG during, deca at 600mg for 14 weeks can be a mother to recover from.


what would recommend for a HCG dose on Test E, Deca? I'm running slightly lower 500mg Test E, Deca 400mg for 15 weeks..... I've planned 1000iu each week from week 3


----------



## Muscle Maniac

Development said:


> what would recommend for a HCG dose on Test E, Deca? I'm running slightly lower 500mg Test E, Deca 400mg for 15 weeks..... I've planned 1000iu each week from week 3


1000iu a week sounds about right


----------



## Muscle Maniac

hackskii said:


> I would run the HCG during, deca at 600mg for 14 weeks can be a mother to recover from.


How would you run a recovery for 600mg test e and 300mg deca. 12 week cycle. Deca finishes at 10 weeks.

Cheers


----------



## hackskii

I would run the HCG all the way up to PCT start day.

Then 3 to 4 weeks clomid at 100mg, and 20mg nolva for 5 to 6 weeks.

I would run low dose adex at .5mg EOD throughout your cycle.

If this gives you stiff joints drop the dose.


----------



## Muscle Maniac

hackskii said:


> I would run the HCG all the way up to PCT start day.
> 
> Then 3 to 4 weeks clomid at 100mg, and 20mg nolva for 5 to 6 weeks.
> 
> I would run low dose adex at .5mg EOD throughout your cycle.
> 
> If this gives you stiff joints drop the dose.


Cheers buddy

Would 500iu of hcg a week be enough or would it have to be 1000iu from week 3 onwards?


----------



## Solita

hackskii said:


> I would run the HCG during, deca at 600mg for 14 weeks can be a mother to recover from.


What if i am on week 9 of the cycle ? Never start any hcg ? Should i do hcg after last injection ?


----------



## hackskii

Muscle Maniac said:


> Cheers buddy
> 
> Would 500iu of hcg a week be enough or would it have to be 1000iu from week 3 onwards?


I doubt it, but better than nothing.



Solita said:


> What if i am on week 9 of the cycle ? Never start any hcg ? Should i do hcg after last injection ?


Well, a bit late in the game but hit it with 1000iu right now, then you can do the 1000iu once a week till you start PCT.

And even then I would still have some in there for the first week or so.


----------



## benki11

hackskii said:


> I would run the HCG all the way up to PCT start day.
> 
> Then 3 to 4 weeks clomid at 100mg, and 20mg nolva for 5 to 6 weeks.
> 
> I would run low dose adex at .5mg EOD throughout your cycle.
> 
> If this gives you stiff joints drop the dose.


Hi Hacskii

Why is it that in power pct we use nolvadex for 45 days and clomid only for 30 days ?

Why 15 days extra of just nolvadex?

Thanks


----------



## str4nger

awesome, guna run that pct after my course, Ill have to take the nolva and clomid on holiday with me


----------



## hackskii

benki11 said:


> Hi Hacskii
> 
> Why is it that in power pct we use nolvadex for 45 days and clomid only for 30 days ?
> 
> Why 15 days extra of just nolvadex?
> 
> Thanks


Probably because after 3 weeks people tend to get vision issues with the clomid due to ocular toxicity, so you cant run it very long.


----------



## Arc

hackskii said:


> Probably because after 3 weeks people tend to get vision issues with the clomid due to ocular toxicity, so you cant run it very long.


i was hoping that you could give an answer about clomid in that topic

http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/pct/209349-why-high-dose-clomid.html


----------



## benki11

Arc said:


> i was hoping that you could give an answer about clomid in that topic
> 
> http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/pct/209349-why-high-dose-clomid.html


You are not as Dumb as I Thought 

Your thread sucks


----------



## hackskii

Arc said:


> i was hoping that you could give an answer about clomid in that topic
> 
> http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/pct/209349-why-high-dose-clomid.html


It only has this i


----------



## benki11

hackskii said:


> It only has this i


Lol


----------



## penfold333

hi there, know this is old thread, but i was on juice for 2yrs! oh by the way im new to here so hello all. was on deca all the way through with trying difrent tests months on with test prop n off then tri-test 500, then suss while never stopping the deca, funny enuff my libido only crashed towards the end wich was 2yrs. then i waited 3wks for the deca easters and enanthate easters to leave my body before i could even think of doing my pct, as your body has to be completley roid free before i started my tamoxifen-hcg, and n old remadee vitamin E-. mon-wed-frid-hcg-15000iu 20mg every day tamoxefin plus vitamin e-800iu evry day and shockingly enuff within a week n half my wood was up, my balls were growing and my sack was nice n loose!? this i thought would never come bk so quick as being on high dosed juice for 2years..? but believe me i was well shocked but very relieved too! i suppose every man is diffrent in there own way but if you run too much hcg you can risk over doing it n destroying the orriginal programe plan. hope this is of some help to many or some people, peace...penfold 333 laters


----------



## penfold333

benki11 said:


> Hi Hacskii
> 
> Why is it that in power pct we use nolvadex for 45 days and clomid only for 30 days ?
> 
> Why 15 days extra of just nolvadex?
> 
> Thanks


 to me it makes sence to run the extra tamoxifen at only 20mg a day instead of high doses of clomid wen they both do the same thing..! 6 weeks in total, start hcg and tamox n clomid if want to..? but no need to run clomid aswell as there both 4 the same reason, stop you getting bitch tits! simple. 3 wks of hcg-mon-wed-fri-at 15000iu on them days start tamox the same day as hcg. then wen you stop hcg after 3 weeks you continue your tamox for a further 3 weeks n only 3 wks wich is 6 wks tamox in total. run some vit-E from the start too, 800iu every day, this binds tgether very well indeed n you will see the results i promise you this!! peace out penfold 333


----------



## hackskii

penfold333 said:


> hi there, know this is old thread, but i was on juice for 2yrs! oh by the way im new to here so hello all. was on deca all the way through with trying difrent tests months on with test prop n off then tri-test 500, then suss while never stopping the deca, funny enuff my libido only crashed towards the end wich was 2yrs. then i waited 3wks for the deca easters and enanthate easters to leave my body before i could even think of doing my pct, as your body has to be completley roid free before i started my tamoxifen-hcg, and n old remadee vitamin E-. mon-wed-frid-hcg-15000iu 20mg every day tamoxefin plus vitamin e-800iu evry day and shockingly enuff within a week n half my wood was up, my balls were growing and my sack was nice n loose!? this i thought would never come bk so quick as being on high dosed juice for 2years..? but believe me i was well shocked but very relieved too! i suppose every man is diffrent in there own way but if you run too much hcg you can risk over doing it n destroying the orriginal programe plan. hope this is of some help to many or some people, peace...penfold 333 laters


Did you say 15000iu Monday, Wednesday, and Friday?

45000iu HCG total?

Leydig cells are protected with the use of nolva so it wont destroy anything.

And if anything the numbers you posted of HCG seem a bit high.

I notice it take me around 20,000iu HCG either in PCT, or during the cycle, or a combination of both for my nuts to return testicular function.



penfold333 said:


> to me it makes sence to run the extra tamoxifen at only 20mg a day instead of high doses of clomid wen they both do the same thing..! 6 weeks in total, start hcg and tamox n clomid if want to..? but no need to run clomid aswell as there both 4 the same reason, stop you getting bitch tits! simple. 3 wks of hcg-mon-wed-fri-at 15000iu on them days start tamox the same day as hcg. then wen you stop hcg after 3 weeks you continue your tamox for a further 3 weeks n only 3 wks wich is 6 wks tamox in total. run some vit-E from the start too, 800iu every day, this binds tgether very well indeed n you will see the results i promise you this!! peace out penfold 333


Actually, they are both SERMS but they are not the same.

Clomid is used to determine secondary acquired hypogonadism in men, not nolva, clomid is used.

They are similar but in my opinion clomid works much better and making the pituitary more sensitive to GnRH.

Also, the studies are conflicting on vitamin E, some show lower test levels, some suggest leydig cell sensitivity.

Vitamin D would be a much better option as HCG works better if you are deficient in vitamin D, not to mention it does elevate testosterone levels naturally.


----------



## Arc

hackskii said:


> Did you say 15000iu Monday, Wednesday, and Friday?
> 
> 45000iu HCG total?
> 
> *Leydig cells are protected with the use of nolva so it wont destroy anything.*
> 
> And if anything the numbers you posted of HCG seem a bit high.
> 
> I notice it take me around 20,000iu HCG either in PCT, or during the cycle, or a combination of both for my nuts to return testicular function.


hey Hackskii

about

*Leydig cells are protected with the use of nolva so it wont destroy anything.*

can you explain more

i am fan of clomid only pct at low dose 25 mg ED and can't understand why the need of high dose of clomid and the role of tamox in PCT


----------



## meat530

Hackskii, I'm 23 years old and from ages 20-22 I did several foolish and misguided designer steroid cycles such as a Superdrol and Tren stack, Phera Plex, Halodrol, M1A, and Ultradrol. Most cycles were 4 weeks, with one being about 8 weeks. At first my PCTs only involved crappy OTC products and natural test boosters until I learned about Nolvadex and Clomid. In October 2011 I did a 4 week Superdrol and Tren stack, with a 4 week PCT of Nolvadex and Clomid (can't remember dosages). Although I wasn't recovered completely I hopped onto a 4 week cycle of Ultradrol in March 2012 and did another PCT of Nolvadex and Clomid, with test boosters like Purus Labs Recycle and NTBM's HCGenerate. I have not cycled since then due to finally realizing I have been destroying my liver and my ability to naturally produce testosterone. I realize my mistake now in thinking I was invincible, I'm giving up steroids for good and would gladly trade the muscle I've gained for a return to feeling normal. Since this is obviously not an option, I have been researching constantly for 10 months or so about how to normalize my HPTA and have learned a lot, especially from reading this thread.

I feel like **** just about all the time. I have low libido accompanied with ED, slight depression, mental fog, low energy, problems with sleeping, basically most of the symptoms that come with low testosterone. I've been getting increasingly concerned that I'm ****ed and won't ever feel normal. I got bloodwork done a few days ago for the first time (I wish I would have been smart and resourceful enough to get bloods done this whole time). They don't look too bad, but I wanted to see what you think. I was planning on doing the HCG/Nolva/Clomid PCT you recommend, but it looks to me like I'm not primary, maybe I'm wrong though.

Here are my results after fasting, taken at approximately noon (I went through Labcorp):

Total Testosterone: 527 (348-1197)

LH: 3.0 (1.7-8.6)

FSH: 1.8 (1.5-12.4)

Estradiol: 28.2 (7.6-42.6)

I plan on getting a more expansive test done in the future for things like vitamin D, prolactin, SHBG, and free T, but this is where I'm at right now and I was wondering if you could give me some input. I realize my test is in the range for normal, and from looking at the LH level my balls seem to be at least somewhat responsive. 3.0 is at the lower end of normal though and was wondering if this should be higher, as well as my testosterone which is low normal. I feel that at 23 years old this should be higher, but maybe I'm misinformed. Before steroids I was a walking hard-on, I was active, and I could think clearly. Now I feel run down all the time, I could easily pass up sex and my dick never works the way it's supposed to, not to mention the mental fog and short term memory loss problems. I can however get a boner when masturbating, although it takes a little while and a lot of effort. I can ejaculate but it's relatively weak compared to what it used to be and the loads seem small. Also, my sack is almost always real tight and my balls barely hang at all. I have no idea if that's relevant but I don't remember them being like that before. If any more info is needed I'd be glad to give it, thanks.


----------



## hackskii

Arc said:


> hey Hackskii
> 
> about
> 
> *Leydig cells are protected with the use of nolva so it wont destroy anything.*
> 
> can you explain more
> 
> i am fan of clomid only pct at low dose 25 mg ED and can't understand why the need of high dose of clomid and the role of tamox in PCT


The nolva protects the leydig cells from high intra-testicular aromatase activity when using high dose HCG.

Who says 100mg is high dose clomid?

The tabs are 50mg them selves.

Endocrinologists use 100mg clomid for 5 to 7 days to diagnose secondary acquired hypogonadism.

The role of tamox in PCT with clomid has a synergy affect, both are agonists, and antagonists to different tissues.

Actually clomid acts as an estrogen to the hypothalamus, where nolva does not.

So, not all the tissues are acted upon the same.


----------



## hackskii

meat530 said:


> Hackskii, I'm 23 years old and from ages 20-22 I did several foolish and misguided designer steroid cycles such as a Superdrol and Tren stack, Phera Plex, Halodrol, M1A, and Ultradrol. Most cycles were 4 weeks, with one being about 8 weeks. At first my PCTs only involved crappy OTC products and natural test boosters until I learned about Nolvadex and Clomid. In October 2011 I did a 4 week Superdrol and Tren stack, with a 4 week PCT of Nolvadex and Clomid (can't remember dosages). Although I wasn't recovered completely I hopped onto a 4 week cycle of Ultradrol in March 2012 and did another PCT of Nolvadex and Clomid, with test boosters like Purus Labs Recycle and NTBM's HCGenerate. I have not cycled since then due to finally realizing I have been destroying my liver and my ability to naturally produce testosterone. I realize my mistake now in thinking I was invincible, I'm giving up steroids for good and would gladly trade the muscle I've gained for a return to feeling normal. Since this is obviously not an option, I have been researching constantly for 10 months or so about how to normalize my HPTA and have learned a lot, especially from reading this thread.
> 
> I feel like **** just about all the time. I have low libido accompanied with ED, slight depression, mental fog, low energy, problems with sleeping, basically most of the symptoms that come with low testosterone. I've been getting increasingly concerned that I'm ****ed and won't ever feel normal. I got bloodwork done a few days ago for the first time (I wish I would have been smart and resourceful enough to get bloods done this whole time). They don't look too bad, but I wanted to see what you think. I was planning on doing the HCG/Nolva/Clomid PCT you recommend, but it looks to me like I'm not primary, maybe I'm wrong though.
> 
> Here are my results after fasting, taken at approximately noon (I went through Labcorp):
> 
> Total Testosterone: 527 (348-1197)
> 
> LH: 3.0 (1.7-8.6)
> 
> FSH: 1.8 (1.5-12.4)
> 
> Estradiol: 28.2 (7.6-42.6)
> 
> I plan on getting a more expansive test done in the future for things like vitamin D, prolactin, SHBG, and free T, but this is where I'm at right now and I was wondering if you could give me some input. I realize my test is in the range for normal, and from looking at the LH level my balls seem to be at least somewhat responsive. 3.0 is at the lower end of normal though and was wondering if this should be higher, as well as my testosterone which is low normal. I feel that at 23 years old this should be higher, but maybe I'm misinformed. Before steroids I was a walking hard-on, I was active, and I could think clearly. Now I feel run down all the time, I could easily pass up sex and my dick never works the way it's supposed to, not to mention the mental fog and short term memory loss problems. I can however get a boner when masturbating, although it takes a little while and a lot of effort. I can ejaculate but it's relatively weak compared to what it used to be and the loads seem small. Also, my sack is almost always real tight and my balls barely hang at all. I have no idea if that's relevant but I don't remember them being like that before. If any more info is needed I'd be glad to give it, thanks.


A couple of things, stuff like HCGenerate which has nothing to do with HCG but uses the name to deceive you into thinking you are using something that works in my mind is a crime.

It really upsets me these guys make outlandish claims when giving something like transdermal DHEA preparations and some crap herb combinations.

Testosterone boosters are rubbish, if you have excessive aromatase activity then well yah, estrogen is suppressing testosterone.

At which point a mild AI that costs pennies a day will sort the issue.

But, manipulating normals levels of estrogen in hopes of bumping testosterone in the hope of gains is nuts, it wont work, results wont be there, and you only compromise libido, mood, lipid profiles, etc.

Simple vitamins and minerals like vitamin D, and boron, can have an impact on test levels naturally.

Why?

Because deficiencies in vitamin D are known to have lower testosterone levels, this is all backed by studies to confirm this, that and the highest fertility is in the summer time when you get the most sun, and not to mention vitamin D is very common to be deficient in.

The sound of your song is very common.

The LH, and FSH do look a tad low but those gonadotropins are only there to flip the switches in the nuts for testosterone and sperm manufacture.

If your leydig cells are sensitive then the response will be good with testosterone even in light of lower end of normal for LH release.

As men age, LH can elevate, yet, the leydig cells are not as sensitive and testosterone could be lower end of normal, even though LH is at the upper end of normal.

You probably could do some clomid, vitamin D, boron, ZMA, and eat some pumpkin seeds to see if you can bump things.

But, it should come back, just the ones you used superdrol, and tren based gears all will hammer the HPTA.

After a deca cycle for instance, it may take up to a year, or longer to recover.

Sadly, this song is pretty damn common with the influx of designer steroids, and over the counter PCT meds which most are rubbish in the first place.

A carpenter could use a screw driver to hammer in a nail, but there are better tools like his hammer for that job.


----------



## meat530

Thanks for the response, your help is much appreciated. It's been almost a year since my last cycle, and i still feel like crap and have no libido. Thats the main reason im so concerned. I just went out and bought some vitamin d and some boron last night after looking at your previous recommendations. Just curious, would some nolvadex be useful with the clomid in this case or should I just stick with the clomid by itself? Also, what dose of clomid do you recommend?


----------



## hackskii

Well, you could do the clomid alone with no worries, something like 100mg for 2 to 3 weeks.

Or 100mg for 2 weeks, then 50 for 2 weeks.

I have played with very low dose EOD stuff with clomid, it does give me more night time erections, and to be honest, big loads of semen.

Pretty impressive actually.

It will think it out big time.


----------



## meat530

Right on, well I'll be getting started on 100mg clomid along with vitamin d and boron amongst other natural supplements and get tested in a couple weeks to see where im at. Appreciated.


----------



## Arc

hackskii said:


> The nolva protects the leydig cells from high intra-testicular aromatase activity when using high dose HCG.
> 
> Who says 100mg is high dose clomid?
> 
> The tabs are 50mg them selves.
> 
> Endocrinologists use 100mg clomid for 5 to 7 days to diagnose secondary acquired hypogonadism.
> 
> The role of tamox in PCT with clomid has a synergy affect, both are agonists, and antagonists to different tissues.
> 
> Actually clomid acts as an estrogen to the hypothalamus, where nolva does not.
> 
> So, not all the tissues are acted upon the same.


1)the reseason i want to lower my clomid use is that clomid lower IGF-1 like most SERMs do

2)so can i use aromasin instead of novla for preventing high intra-testicular aromatase activity when using high dose HCG.

and after stopping the clomid should i continue use aromasin for more 10-15 day to avoid estrogenic effect of clomid (you know one isomer of clomiphene has estrogeing effect (zuclomiphene half life 5 days) )

like people when they continue use novla 10 -15 days after stopping clomid

3)last Q sorry for asking many Q

what dose of aromasin should i be running? is 12.5 EOD enough (same as the dose i will be running during cycle)

thanks Hackskii


----------



## Arc

benki11 said:


> You are not as Dumb as I Thought
> 
> Your thread sucks


lol sorry for that

check the above replies


----------



## hackskii

Arc said:


> 1)the reseason i want to lower my clomid use is that clomid lower IGF-1 like most SERMs do
> 
> 2)so can i use aromasin instead of novla for preventing high intra-testicular aromatase activity when using high dose HCG.
> 
> and after stopping the clomid should i continue use aromasin for more 10-15 day to avoid estrogenic effect of clomid (you know one isomer of clomiphene has estrogeing effect (zuclomiphene half life 5 days) )
> 
> like people when they continue use novla 10 -15 days after stopping clomid
> 
> 3)last Q sorry for asking many Q
> 
> what dose of aromasin should i be running? is 12.5 EOD enough (same as the dose i will be running during cycle)
> 
> thanks Hackskii


Well, the IGF-1 thing is not a big deal, having sub-normal testosterone levels will impact muscle loss far more than IGF-1 ever will.

I think low dose HCG during is a much better approach to this than trying to return testicular function post cycle.

Estrogen wont be an issue post cycle as endogenous testosterone levels will be low, I doubt estrogen would be a problem anyway, and an AI should be used during the cycle.

I do not agree with the use of an AI during PCT, for one estrogen is not an issue, second estrogen is necessary for mood, libido, lipid profiles, as well as bone density, cant see any benefits of its use during recovery.


----------



## Arc

so you say aromasin can't be a substitute for novla


----------



## hackskii

Arc said:


> so you say aromasin can't be a substitute for novla


Yes, that is exactly what I am saying.

Why would you think you could substitute a SERM for an AI?

The whole idea here is to use a SERM to make GnRH more sensitive at the pituitary, thus the spike in LH, and FSH.

Driving estrogen down creates unwanted sides.


----------



## Arc

hackskii said:


> Yes, that is exactly what I am saying.
> 
> Why would you think you could substitute a SERM for an AI?
> 
> The whole idea here is to use a SERM to make GnRH more sensitive at the pituitary, thus the spike in LH, and FSH.
> 
> Driving estrogen down creates unwanted sides.


you are right and i am using clomid for that

thanks hackskii for clearing that up

i hope u didn't get bored form my too many questions


----------



## anabolik

Hackskii in the next couple weeks I'll be starting your pct after being on cycle for the past 3 years and I was wondering what your thoughts were on taking dutasteride or finasteride during this time? Would taking either of these meds interfere with my recovery of natural test levels at all? I'm currenty taking dutasteride 0.5mg ed but was thinking of switching to finasteride at 1mg ed when I start pct as my test levels will be very low anyway.

Thanks.


----------



## hackskii

anabolik said:


> Hackskii in the next couple weeks I'll be starting your pct after being on cycle for the past 3 years and I was wondering what your thoughts were on taking dutasteride or finasteride during this time? Would taking either of these meds interfere with my recovery of natural test levels at all? I'm currenty taking dutasteride 0.5mg ed but was thinking of switching to finasteride at 1mg ed when I start pct as my test levels will be very low anyway.
> 
> Thanks.


That is one nasty drug and one I would not touch.

There have been cases where men were hypogonadic for life after using this drug.

Erectile dysfunction is a very common side of this drug, and some times it is permanent.

If anything it would hinder recover, or cause you to not ever recover.

Go on youtube and type that one in and see the horror many men have had.


----------



## anabolik

hackskii said:


> That is one nasty drug and one I would not touch.
> 
> There have been cases where men were hypogonadic for life after using this drug.
> 
> Erectile dysfunction is a very common side of this drug, and some times it is permanent.
> 
> If anything it would hinder recover, or cause you to not ever recover.
> 
> Go on youtube and type that one in and see the horror many men have had.


I'm aware of the problems many men report to suffer from these drugs but personally I tolerate them very well. My libido is fine and no problem getting erections so I'd say I must be one of the lucky ones.

Maybe I'll stop taking any dht meds until I feel recovered after the pct...I would never have started taking them if I didn't feel it was worth the risk...I don't want to be bald yet I'm only 27 ffs :/


----------



## hackskii

anabolik said:


> I'm aware of the problems many men report to suffer from these drugs but personally I tolerate them very well. My libido is fine and no problem getting erections so I'd say I must be one of the lucky ones.
> 
> Maybe I'll stop taking any dht meds until I feel recovered after the pct...I would never have started taking them if I didn't feel it was worth the risk...I don't want to be bald yet I'm only 27 ffs :/


I would rather be bald than not be able to get an erection with a person that I normally would want to ravage.

Some guys even had cell death of prostate tissues.

One other problem is progesterone and DHT can occupy the same receptors, inhibiting DHT takes the environment for male sex steroids and tips it more towards female sex steroids.

It may be that your androgen environment is is so high some DHT is being converted so you are safe there.

I have read that little intra-testicular DHT is manufactured in the nuts, where as intra-testicular testosterone is 40 times that of serum.

It may be likely that you were kind of protected some as DHT may have been in your system.

During PCT when androgens are low, probably wont be an issue for hair loss.


----------



## meat530

I've heard that clomid can downregulate GnRH receptors at the pituitary. Is there any truth to this?


----------



## hackskii

meat530 said:


> I've heard that clomid can downregulate GnRH receptors at the pituitary. Is there any truth to this?


Well, that would be like 2 weeks later if it were true.

BigCat wrote on this like 10 years ago.

But, with the use of nolva this is not so.

It actually upregulates GnRH receptors at first.

Also long term use suggests otherwise.


----------



## hackskii

meat530 said:


> I've heard that clomid can downregulate GnRH receptors at the pituitary. Is there any truth to this?


Well, that would be like 2 weeks later if it were true.

BigCat wrote on this like 10 years ago.

But, with the use of nolva this is not so.

It actually upregulates GnRH receptors at first.

Also long term use suggests otherwise.


----------



## disciple007

how come my post got deleted?


----------



## hackskii

disciple007 said:


> how come my post got deleted?


I dont see a deleted post.

I see you have just 2 posts.


----------



## disciple007

hackskii said:


> I dont see a deleted post.
> 
> I see you have just 2 posts.


weird, not sure why it didnt show up, maybe forgot to hit the post button. 

well here goes,

hey hackskii. like to say this thread has been very informative, no matter what i search for in regards to pct on google, your name keeps popping up with always positive responses. so hence i decided to join and try get a hold of you, knowing my luck i cant p.m you. so will have to speak openly to you.

ok where do i start?? hope you dont mind the long post. ive been a long time user of aas, started at 21 and now i am 29. the first few cycles were typical test/deca or test with stana or tren.

my pct thoughts were ****house and would be just arimidex for 2-3 weeks and wasnt taking long breaks off the cycles. i never exceeded 1g of test nor other substances, common was 600mg test. it got to the point where i did a comp and then decided to take a 2 year break from competing to pack on some mass for my next comp 2 years after it.

my stupid thinking led me to thinking i had to stay on gear for a good 2 years which i did. fair enough the gains were remarkable which got me a few trophies and a few titles under my belt but little did i realise what complications i would stuble by when coming off. after the comp i did come off the gear and did from memory 500iu hcg for 10 days and nolva at 40mg a day for 2 weeks and then 20mg for another 2 weeks. my comp was back on the 16th oct 2011 and had done a blood test on the 23/2/12 which came back with these results:

fsh 4

lh 4.1

estr 70

prog 1

prolac 233

test 4.6

after laying off for so long obviously seems i was still shut down, still low libido, feeling tired and sleepy. i then got a hold of a ifbb pro(dont want to mention names) who told me to get onto a hpta recovery pct which involved extrememly high doses of hcg,clomid and reasonable dose of nolva. the cycle duration was 21 days in total, hcg was shot every 5 days starting at 10,000iu then tapering down each shot by 2500iu.

clomid would be 300mg for 3 days and then every 3 days i would reduce by 50mg.

nolva was 20mg first week and 10mg for 2nd week, he told me it wasnt necessary but if on hand to use it.

after doing this hpta cycle i did a blood test a few weeks after it (16/6/2012) and was dissapointed with bloods which is as follows:

fsh 2

lh 2.4

estr 77

prog 1

prolac 208

test 4.5

shbg 12

he told me this was due to bad pct in the past and the abuse of the gear and suggested to start the 16 week cycle which was a heavy cycle of minimum 1g test and variety of androgenic/anabolic steroids. me stupid did what he said. i came off cycle and followed his pct once again and stayed off for a few weeks.

after that i did a ostarine cycle for 1 month at 25mg, half way through i got gyno symptons so i added 2.5mg letrozole(thats all i had at the time) every 3rd day and fixed the gyno symptons. after the 1 month ostarine and the letrozole i stayed off for a good few weeks. last week i decided to do another blood test. here is the results:

estr 70

prog 1

prolac 212

test 5.7

shbg 12

stupid me forgot to test fsh/lh but im guessing they would be between 2-5. not something i should be guessing.

my test looks like it has gone slightly higher but im still feeling shut down, very low libido to the point of sex 1-2 times a week. coming from a guy who use to do it 3x a day almost prior to steroid use. let me know your thoughts and what approach i should take. i was looking at your pct regime and intrigued by it and willing to give it a go. been hard to source decent pct in aust but i have finally found a decent source. i think some of my pct in the past was bunk and not effective hence no sense of recovery even on the pro pct advised to me.

when i did the 1st blood test out of the 3 i did a full comprehensive test and everything else was fine even thyroid, the pro wanted everything tested before attempting any gear use.

i dont smoke cigarettes,i dont drink alchohol, dont do drugs, so this would of helped recovery to a certain degree from what hes told me.

from past experiences he had worse cases which were sorted no problem.

i lost faith in him becuase these days its more about making money to them then been there for your fan and those who supported you for so many years to get them to where they are.its sad but true.

your thoughts would be greatly appreciated.


----------



## hackskii

Well, I actually do not agree with what the pro suggested, 10,000iu in one shot is just pretty aggressive, and although the idea of starting high, and tapering makes sense because as the testicles become more sensitive, they require less stimulation to make testosterone.

But, either your HCG was no good, got warm, or your nuts don't want to play.

I would do the doctors protocol, but I would add a few things, now this is going to sound kind of aggressive, but if this does not bring you closer to be within range, you will have no choice to be on TRT for life, if you ride it out, may take a year to recover, or you may never recover.

But, you are fairly young.

I am going to add a couple of more things, see if you can source them.

Here goes, start this all day 1.

2500iu HCG EOD x 8

HMG 75iu EOD x 8 take this with the HCG, but it might be a bit expensive, and this is only used in extreme cases.

100mg clomid split dose morning and night ED x 30 days

Nolva 20mg ED for 45 days

5000iu Vitamin D ED forever, this stuff is awesome, and is anti-cancer, good for the prostate and raises test levels in men, also if you are deficient in this vitamin (which technically is considered a hormone), the HCG wont work as well as discovered by a leading TRT doc named Shippen.

ZMA at night before you go to bed, this will support testosterone as men need these minerals.

You could try 10mg boron a day, that is said to lower estrogen in men, and bump up testosterone levels, it is suggested it is done via way of allowing more vitamin D in the system.

So, there you go, that is about as aggressive as it gets.

Ideally though, if you are not noticing any night time erections, nor morning wood, and libido is still bad by the last shot of HCG, you may need to run it longer, or would be an indication of some issue with the nuts.

Good luck.

If you feel better emailing me do so at [email protected], I get alot of emails from many people I do not know all with the same problem.

This is very common, but some guys just do not want to admit it.


----------



## disciple007

hackskii said:


> Well, I actually do not agree with what the pro suggested, 10,000iu in one shot is just pretty aggressive, and although the idea of starting high, and tapering makes sense because as the testicles become more sensitive, they require less stimulation to make testosterone.
> 
> But, either your HCG was no good, got warm, or your nuts don't want to play.
> 
> I would do the doctors protocol, but I would add a few things, now this is going to sound kind of aggressive, but if this does not bring you closer to be within range, you will have no choice to be on TRT for life, if you ride it out, may take a year to recover, or you may never recover.
> 
> But, you are fairly young.
> 
> I am going to add a couple of more things, see if you can source them.
> 
> Here goes, start this all day 1.
> 
> 2500iu HCG EOD x 8
> 
> HMG 75iu EOD x 8 take this with the HCG, but it might be a bit expensive, and this is only used in extreme cases.
> 
> 100mg clomid split dose morning and night ED x 30 days
> 
> Nolva 20mg ED for 45 days
> 
> 5000iu Vitamin D ED forever, this stuff is awesome, and is anti-cancer, good for the prostate and raises test levels in men, also if you are deficient in this vitamin (which technically is considered a hormone), the HCG wont work as well as discovered by a leading TRT doc named Shippen.
> 
> ZMA at night before you go to bed, this will support testosterone as men need these minerals.
> 
> You could try 10mg boron a day, that is said to lower estrogen in men, and bump up testosterone levels, it is suggested it is done via way of allowing more vitamin D in the system.
> 
> So, there you go, that is about as aggressive as it gets.
> 
> Ideally though, if you are not noticing any night time erections, nor morning wood, and libido is still bad by the last shot of HCG, you may need to run it longer, or would be an indication of some issue with the nuts.
> 
> Good luck.
> 
> If you feel better emailing me do so at [email protected], I get alot of emails from many people I do not know all with the same problem.
> 
> This is very common, but some guys just do not want to admit it.


Hey Hack.

thanks for your well detailed prompt reply.

will be in touch via email.


----------



## disciple007

Hey Hack.

thanks for your well detailed prompt reply.

will be in touch via email.


----------



## Joshua

hackskii said:


> A couple of things, stuff like HCGenerate which has nothing to do with HCG but uses the name to deceive you into thinking you are using something that works in my mind is a crime.


I couldn't agree more with this.

"Need To Build Money" NTBM seemed to cause chaos with their marketing tactics. Stay well clear as the only thing they are building is their profit margin at your expense.

J


----------



## hackskii

Joshua said:


> I couldn't agree more with this.
> 
> "Need To Build Money" NTBM seemed to cause chaos with their marketing tactics. Stay well clear as the only thing they are building is their profit margin at your expense.
> 
> J


You know, he came out with an article on PCT, and in the article said it is a detriment to use HCG post cycle as it hinders recovery.

Then at the end of his article suggests that his HCGenerate has none of the bad sides as HCG, yet insinuated his worked just as good.

I remember looking at the ingredients:

Fenugreek, good for breast feeding mothers, oops, wrong for this:lol: Fenugreek has coumarins, which can thin the blood, it is used to treat diabetes but then again, a cap of fish oils will help thin the blood and help with diabetes, and diarrhea.

Fadogia Agrestis (for libido, but no proof it does anything aside from that and the study was done on rats), looks like no studies confirm its use in humans.

3, 4 Divanillyltetrahydrofuran (fancy word for stinging nettle), which has mild AI properties but then again is is dirt cheap to buy in bulk.

Tribulus (no proof ever it elevates testosterone), why bother putting this one on the label, if anything it shows he is reaching for something.

Vitamin E a no brainer here

LongJack which has been shown to boost libido in some, but I fail to see his logic in androgen elevation.

Zinc

Ok, now the good part, it is $64.69 on sale at need to build their money.com and there is only 30 tabs which the dose is 5 caps a day, which makes this last 6 days.

Excuse me, but that is over 10 bucks a day for a cycle.

Really? :cursing:

Now you know why I have so much heart burn here over this crap that would do nothing to help you recover.

Hell, a tab of clomid a day which would cost pennies and would work far better than this crap.

Talk about opportunity....sheesh

I only wish there would be a guy defending this on the board, that would be so much fun, or the dude that wrote that bogus HCG article, even better.

Nice to see you here Josh


----------



## -aurora

hey Hack, just a quick question about hcg and desensitization. I finished a 12 week cycly of test e 500mg p/w with a 6 week dbol kickstart. Throughout from week 3 i took 1000iu of hcg p/w up until the start of pct which is the power pct of 8 x 2500iu shots with clomid and tamoxifen. The reason Im doing the power pct is the last cycle i done before this one I was shut down very bad due poor info/lack of sense on my own part and a bad pct. Im three shots in now at the moment and just starting to worry it might be too much hcg and i could be causing more damage than good due to desensitization. What are you thoughts on this and what would you advise i do for the rest of the pct.

Your info is much appreciated.


----------



## hackskii

-aurora said:


> hey Hack, just a quick question about hcg and desensitization. I finished a 12 week cycly of test e 500mg p/w with a 6 week dbol kickstart. Throughout from week 3 i took 1000iu of hcg p/w up until the start of pct which is the power pct of 8 x 2500iu shots with clomid and tamoxifen. The reason Im doing the power pct is the last cycle i done before this one I was shut down very bad due poor info/lack of sense on my own part and a bad pct. Im three shots in now at the moment and just starting to worry it might be too much hcg and i could be causing more damage than good due to desensitization. What are you thoughts on this and what would you advise i do for the rest of the pct.
> 
> Your info is much appreciated.


Well, that would be a hard call, 1000iu a week probably wont bring things back to life after 12 weeks on cycle.

It would take another probably 1000iu more, so add one more shot and be done with it and continue with the SERMS.


----------



## Fitness4Life

Very informative thread, I read the first 2 pages too many to read hehe  I'm wondering should HcG be used after every cycle? Some people tell me its only needed after more serious cycles, that Test only cycles don't really need HcG, how accurate (or wrong even) is that? Like I got told from people a few times when I asked questions about a cycle (That Im soon to go on) on another forum to just use the PCT (nolva/clom) 2 weeks after the last pin and you'll be back in no time.

Gladly waiting response.


----------



## hackskii

It depends really.

I would use HCG during the cycle and with every cycle, then that way once testicular function has been maintained, just the use of the SERMS are necessary.

Some guys shut down hard, some do not, so it depends on the person, test only is cool, but if it was like a gram a week for months on end then yes it should be used.


----------



## tom1234

I recovered well with the protocol even though I did not use HCG throughout, but will do in future as isn't that expensive and easy to jab.


----------



## Fitness4Life

hackskii said:


> It depends really.
> 
> I would use HCG during the cycle and with every cycle, then that way once testicular function has been maintained, just the use of the SERMS are necessary.
> 
> Some guys shut down hard, some do not, so it depends on the person, test only is cool, but if it was like a gram a week for months on end then yes it should be used.


Thanks very much Hackskii  I would be 500mg of Sust for 10 weeks (divided into 2 dose a week) but I want to kickstart it with something like Tbol/Var (expensive things they are!).


----------



## hawkinsmk4

hi, a little advice on restoring HPTA as theres too many conflicting ideas.

ill be the first to admit i abused anavar only last year prob 22 weeks in total the last cycle with poor pct, and ive never felt right since im sure my ive majorly suppressed myself no sex drive etc

im 26 and need to sort it out asap could you please tell me what to do how much etc length of time so i can sort myself out thanks


----------



## hackskii

Fitness4Life said:


> Thanks very much Hackskii  I would be 500mg of Sust for 10 weeks (divided into 2 dose a week) but I want to kickstart it with something like Tbol/Var (expensive things they are!).


That is fine, you can jab once a week if you like with sust, the long ester takes time to build in the system anyway.


----------



## hackskii

hawkinsmk4 said:


> hi, a little advice on restoring HPTA as theres too many conflicting ideas.
> 
> ill be the first to admit i abused anavar only last year prob 22 weeks in total the last cycle with poor pct, and ive never felt right since im sure my ive majorly suppressed myself no sex drive etc
> 
> im 26 and need to sort it out asap could you please tell me what to do how much etc length of time so i can sort myself out thanks


Conflicting ideas?

What is conflicting?

Follow the Power PCT on the first page, everything is in there.


----------



## hawkinsmk4

the dosage of hcg, im not the brightest spark, ill re-read thanks


----------



## hawkinsmk4

First thing, the 500iu a day was not enough to make the testicles do their job, he suggested this was just a waste of time and money.

He suggests 8 shots of HCG @ 2500iu EOD.

With this you take 20 mg of nolvadex for 45 days.

Clomid is also taken but twice a day @ 50mg each dose 12 hours apart.

im guessing just follow this exactly?? the clo and nolva are taken for the 45 days??


----------



## hackskii

hawkinsmk4 said:


> First thing, the 500iu a day was not enough to make the testicles do their job, he suggested this was just a waste of time and money.
> 
> He suggests 8 shots of HCG @ 2500iu EOD.
> 
> With this you take 20 mg of nolvadex for 45 days.
> 
> Clomid is also taken but twice a day @ 50mg each dose 12 hours apart.
> 
> im guessing just follow this exactly?? the clo and nolva are taken for the 45 days??


Clomid is 30 days, nolva 45 days, and yes 2500iu HCG EOD

I want you to take 5000iu vitamin D ED.

1 cod liver tab a day.

ZMA at night before bed.


----------



## Fitness4Life

hackskii said:


> That is fine, you can jab once a week if you like with sust, the long ester takes time to build in the system anyway.


Thanks very much  Oh that sounds great actually, hated thinking of jabbing twice, least at for a first cycle. Would you think even 250mg is an effective dose or should I just stick with 2ml (500mg)?


----------



## hackskii

Fitness4Life said:


> Thanks very much  Oh that sounds great actually, hated thinking of jabbing twice, least at for a first cycle. Would you think even 250mg is an effective dose or should I just stick with 2ml (500mg)?


500, 250 is only double what you are producing anyway, and why bother to do a PCT anyway without the most gains you could have gotten?


----------



## asdffdsa

Is the HCG dosage (8x 2500 i.U. eod) suggested fine for getting balls back after being on low dose test (300mg/week) for 6 months and wanting to stay on?


----------



## hackskii

asdffdsa said:


> Is the HCG dosage (8x 2500 i.U. eod) suggested fine for getting balls back after being on low dose test (300mg/week) for 6 months and wanting to stay on?


Hmmm, never been asked that question before.

If one was going to try something like that, you better use some nolva to keep the leydig cells safe from desensitization.

I guess you could, but it may have been a bit easier to just low dose with your cruise.

Is this a cruise, or are you medicating 300mg a week forever?


----------



## asdffdsa

hackskii said:


> Hmmm, never been asked that question before.
> 
> If one was going to try something like that, you better use some nolva to keep the leydig cells safe from desensitization.
> 
> Is this a cruise, or are you medicating 300mg a week forever?


Cruise.

Could you explain the Nolva part? edit: nvm understand what you mean

I think I will just try a lower amount first around 1000-1500iU e3d


----------



## hackskii

asdffdsa said:


> Cruise.
> 
> Could you explain the Nolva part? edit: nvm understand what you mean
> 
> I think I will just try a lower amount first around 1000-1500iU e3d


But you may not get the initial stimulation needed for recovery, unless there were more shots.


----------



## asdffdsa

hackskii said:


> But you may not get the initial stimulation needed for recovery, unless there were more shots.


I see. So you would recommend I should try ed or eod injections with the iU I suggested?


----------



## hackskii

asdffdsa said:


> I see. So you would recommend I should try ed or eod injections with the iU I suggested?


Well, guys that want to stay on for long periods of time also wanting testicular function would be asking the best of both worlds, there has to be a compromise somewhere.

When the nuts are shut down, they need bigger doses, if they have never been shut down and you go on cycle, you wont need the big doses.

Once shut down you will need the bigger dose, but staying on kind of puts a stick in the wheels.


----------



## Arc

i know how important to use HCG during cycle and how hyperprolactinemia can cause damage to pituitary gland and HPTA

and i came across this today and wanted to know your opinion



> cause i don't want to use HCG cause i've used it in the past and i'm afraid of getting piturity tumor, i got told by a doctor theres a leading cause to piturity benign tumors, which increase prolactin after HCG usage, none cancerous, but can **** you up down below infertility and so fourth... nothings been proven but the doctor said to him its basic sense as he knows how the piturity works and how it leads up.. so am sticking to his wise words


----------



## Eryximachus

Arc said:


> i know how important to use HCG during cycle and how hyperprolactinemia can cause damage to pituitary gland and HPTA
> 
> and i came across this today and wanted to know your opinion


Honestly, none of this stuff is safe. At least HCG is a legal, useful drug so we have studies. It's also easy to get human grade product. Contrast this with the gear. The quality is unknown, and often bad. There are few to no studies, certainly not with the doses the typical bodybuilder uses.

If you're doing steroids, a pituitary tumor is the least of your concerns.

Me personally, I'm done with gear. I'm using HCG now to recover, and I hope I never have to use it again. Or any drug. A year from now, I hope I'm drug free.


----------



## hackskii

Arc said:


> i know how important to use HCG during cycle and how hyperprolactinemia can cause damage to pituitary gland and HPTA
> 
> and i came across this today and wanted to know your opinion


Basic sense?

Funny has no proof, never even heard that before yet it is basic sense as he knows how the pituitary works?

That is a good one.

Ok, lets just look at this one logically then.

If a woman produce approx 1 million iu's of HCG during the first part of the pregnancy which is at its highest, then usually begins to subside during second trimester of pregnancy, why don't women start lactating at the beginning of the pregnancy?

Prolactin starts out after 8 weeks then rises till it hits its highest at term.

I mean their boobs would be full and full of milk early in the pregnancy if this was to be true, which it isnt.

Using that logic there, if HCG is highest in the beginning of the pregnancy, and prolactin is the lowest and not even there till end of week 8, and when HCG is the lowest during pregnancy, prolactin is the highest.

I hate studies and if I am reading this one right, no correlation between HCG and prolactin in this study: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6747379

Abnormal prolactin serum levels in women have been associated with several clinical conditions: galactorrhea (spontaneous flow of milk from the breast), anovulation with amenorrhea (does not drop an egg during menstrual cycle), hypoestrogenism (low estrogen), and hyperprolactinaemia (body producing too much prolactin.

I think what the doctor is stabbing at here would be that he is thinking of pregnenolone spiking with the use of HCG, and just got the two hormones mixed up, nothing I see would support his statement.

Now I may be wrong but my basic sense tells me otherwise:lol:


----------



## Arc

hackskii said:


> nothing I see would support his statement.


well i found these :sad:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6434577

http://journals.lww.com/greenjournal/Abstract/1989/04000/Luteal_Phase_Hyperprolactinemia_During_Ovulation.15.aspx


----------



## hackskii

Arc said:


> well i found these :sad:
> 
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6434577
> 
> http://journals.lww.com/greenjournal/Abstract/1989/04000/Luteal_Phase_Hyperprolactinemia_During_Ovulation.15.aspx


Well, using female ovulatory monkeys using HCG/HMG in luteal phases spiking progesterone probably is not a very good example here, they were high estrogen, high progesterone.

Not sure though, but it does not suggest the use of HCG in men spike prolactin, and thus causing some form of hyperprolactinemia, creating a pituitary tumor.

Didnt read the second one, men do not ovulate.


----------



## hackskii

mirello said:


> after 10 weeks of deca + test, which must be post cycle recovery?
> 
> I can go with nolvadex for 2 weeks after (the cycle of 10 week) , and then another 2 weeks with clomid? for a total of 4 weeks of recovery (2 weeks nolvadex + 2 weeks clomid) ?


Doubt that.

Why not run HCG either with the cycle or post cycle to restore testicular function?


----------



## Arc

hackskii said:


> Didnt read the second one, men do not ovulate.


 :lol: :lol: i guess its a mess as we didn't find any studies on men

although the second study done on omen dose support that after cessation of HCG treatment a mild increase in prolactin occurs


----------



## hackskii

Arc said:


> :lol: :lol: i guess its a mess as we didn't find any studies on men
> 
> although the second study done on omen dose support that after cessation of HCG treatment a mild increase in prolactin occurs


But again, both HCG, and HMG were being used and that will spike FSH (HMG), inducing ovulation, when women ovulate hormones go crazy.

This for instance: *Cycles with hyperprolactinemia were found to have significantly higher preovulatory estrogen levels.*

And this is significant as well: *We conclude that the development of luteal phase hyperprolactinemia during ovulation induction with hMG/hCG is an isolated event. *

That study actually suggests it is something else going on, perhaps high estrogen prior to ovulation.

I have never seen a man with a pituitary tumor that was HCG induced, and in the last 10 years of studying this myself, I doubt it is the cause.


----------



## Arc

nice explanation, thanks hackskii


----------



## Xbigdave79

hackskii said:


> He said it would do nothing to aid in recovery. But he said if it made me feel better about it then go ahead and do it


Hi hackskii just a quick question about the docs pct, I have been using hcg 1000iu every week from week 1 of my cycle

I take it I will not Ned 2500 every other day after 2weeksof last jab? How much should I use just to make shure the balls kick back in

They have shrunk a bit even taking hcg on cycle

My cycle was sus 750 mg p and decca 500 mg per week weeks 1 to 12

Cruse on sus 250 for 4weeks

Then 5 weeks 500mg sus and 100 mg anavar

So 21weeks in total thanks for your help


----------



## hackskii

Xbigdave79 said:


> Hi hackskii just a quick question about the docs pct, I have been using hcg 1000iu every week from week 1 of my cycle
> 
> I take it I will not Ned 2500 every other day after 2weeksof last jab? How much should I use just to make shure the balls kick back in
> 
> They have shrunk a bit even taking hcg on cycle
> 
> My cycle was sus 750 mg p and decca 500 mg per week weeks 1 to 12
> 
> Cruse on sus 250 for 4weeks
> 
> Then 5 weeks 500mg sus and 100 mg anavar
> 
> So 21weeks in total thanks for your help


Well, 21 weeks is a long cycle, I would shorten that up some.

Or at the very least wait till the deca is out then start the SERMS.

I use HCG throughout my cycle, and during clearance time of the gear before I start the SERMS then drop the HCG.


----------



## painandgains

Hey Hackskii , thanks a lot for such a piece of information.I read all the information you provided but just curious to know, what if even with the Power PCT protocol, one fails to get Natural Tests level in Normal range ?

In that case, TRT would be the only option left or one could still try to repeat this power PCT ?

I am 24 year old.

198 lbs 10% body fat at 6 feet

Compounds used Test e , winstrol.

It is almost 6 months i ended up with PCT consisting of nolva+clomid with no HCG on cycle or in PCT just to see where my tests level are and found them in gutar...Before cycling my TT was 785 ng.

I have just jabbed a shot of 2500 iu last night ,but want really to know do i really ****ed up bad that i may need to see a doc for TRT ?

Can i ever get my Natural Tests in Normal range ?

Thanks Hackskii


----------



## hackskii

painandgains said:


> Hey Hackskii , thanks a lot for such a piece of information.I read all the information you provided but just curious to know, what if even with the Power PCT protocol, one fails to get Natural Tests level in Normal range ?
> 
> In that case, TRT would be the only option left or one could still try to repeat this power PCT ?
> 
> I am 24 year old.
> 
> 198 lbs 10% body fat at 6 feet
> 
> Compounds used Test e , winstrol.
> 
> It is almost 6 months i ended up with PCT consisting of nolva+clomid with no HCG on cycle or in PCT just to see where my tests level are and found them in gutar...Before cycling my TT was 785 ng.
> 
> I have just jabbed a shot of 2500 iu last night ,but want really to know do i really ****ed up bad that i may need to see a doc for TRT ?
> 
> Can i ever get my Natural Tests in Normal range ?
> 
> Thanks Hackskii


Your cycle was 6 months ago?

How long were you on cycle for?

How much were you using?

How long on clomid and nolva were you?

What suggests you did not recover?

When you just shot 2500iu HCG did you take any nolva or clomid to protect you from gyno or desensitization issues with the leydig cells?

I always suggest the use of HCG during a cycle, always.


----------



## painandgains

Thanks Sir for taking your time to reply.

I have provided all the details in the email and get your prompt reply too.

I will do as you suggested and will let you know about the progress.

Cheers.


----------



## hackskii

Just replied to the email


----------



## SPRTN

Hackskii,

I'm on week 5 of 12 my first cycle 500mg Test E/Week + first four weeks were supplemented with Dbol. Great gains in size and strength 8+ Kg. Feeling great, no sides as of yet other than some shrinkage in the testicles.

I'm going to follow your 45 day PCT protocol.

I haven't been taking HCG - I was going to wait till the end of my cycle, but I'd rather restore the boys to their natural size sooner than later. Would it be an issue to start now? should I wait a few more weeks? Should I wait till the end? etc.

If I were to take it now would I be looking at the same level of dosage as you suggested 2500 ui EOD? or something lower?

In a nut shell:

When should I start the HCG, how long do I continue it for, and what dosage?

PS: Thanks on behalf of myself and I'm sure everyone else for taking the time to answer all of these questions. It's been beyond helpful.


----------



## hackskii

SPRTN said:


> Hackskii,
> 
> I'm on week 5 of 12 my first cycle 500mg Test E/Week + first four weeks were supplemented with Dbol. Great gains in size and strength 8+ Kg. Feeling great, no sides as of yet other than some shrinkage in the testicles.
> 
> I'm going to follow your 45 day PCT protocol.
> 
> I haven't been taking HCG - I was going to wait till the end of my cycle, but I'd rather restore the boys to their natural size sooner than later. Would it be an issue to start now? should I wait a few more weeks? Should I wait till the end? etc.
> 
> If I were to take it now would I be looking at the same level of dosage as you suggested 2500 ui EOD? or something lower?
> 
> In a nut shell:
> 
> When should I start the HCG, how long do I continue it for, and what dosage?
> 
> PS: Thanks on behalf of myself and I'm sure everyone else for taking the time to answer all of these questions. It's been beyond helpful.


I sent you a email to address this.


----------



## SPRTN

hackskii said:


> I sent you a email to address this.


Thanks, Having trouble finding it - checked my junk folder - nothing showed up.


----------



## hackskii

Here is the email I sent you:

Well, 1000iu 3 times a week would be for the first 4 shots, or 5 shots, then 500iu twice a week should be ok.

During this time take 20mg of nolva ED.


----------



## SPRTN

hackskii said:


> Here is the email I sent you:
> 
> Well, 1000iu 3 times a week would be for the first 4 shots, or 5 shots, then 500iu twice a week should be ok.
> 
> During this time take 20mg of nolva ED.


So wait till the end of the 12 weeks, then start the hcg?


----------



## hackskii

SPRTN said:


> So wait till the end of the 12 weeks, then start the hcg?


No, you take 1000iu right now, then wait 3 days and do that again, then wait 3 days and do that again for a total of 4 or 5 shots, then 500iu twice a week till you start your SERMS for PCT.

Problem now is low dose wont probably bring them back to life before you come off and start PCT.

Otherwise you just will wait to PCT and that probably is not the best approach.

Think of it like this, it is 1000iu a week to keep testicular function, so 10 weeks needs around 10,000iu in total to keep testicular function.

See how my head is working?


----------



## SPRTN

hackskii said:


> No, you take 1000iu right now, then wait 3 days and do that again, then wait 3 days and do that again for a total of 4 or 5 shots, then 500iu twice a week till you start your SERMS for PCT.
> 
> Problem now is low dose wont probably bring them back to life before you come off and start PCT.
> 
> Otherwise you just will wait to PCT and that probably is not the best approach.
> 
> Think of it like this, it is 1000iu a week to keep testicular function, so 10 weeks needs around 10,000iu in total to keep testicular function.
> 
> See how my head is working?


Awesome! Thanks!


----------



## kal-hell

Hi,

Hacksii last year I ran an 8 month cycle 750 test 500 tren. Started in April and stopped tren in oct. Cruised on test till December when I tapered off. Didn't crash and felt ok. Nuts didn't really atrophy either no pct meds taken at all, just a test taper over 6 weeks.

Back on cycle now running rohm Rip blend and tren ace 1ml of each EOD.

I've never run HCG and am not running it now.

My question is if I were to come off would the power pct work? I have HCG in preparation but it is pharma grade in 1500 iu amps. How would I fare running the power pct with 3000iu HCG instead of the 2500 just for the sake of convenience of using two amps EOD??

Thanks in advance...


----------



## hackskii

kal-hell said:


> Hi,
> 
> Hacksii last year I ran an 8 month cycle 750 test 500 tren. Started in April and stopped tren in oct. Cruised on test till December when I tapered off. Didn't crash and felt ok. Nuts didn't really atrophy either no pct meds taken at all, just a test taper over 6 weeks.
> 
> Back on cycle now running rohm Rip blend and tren ace 1ml of each EOD.
> 
> I've never run HCG and am not running it now.
> 
> My question is if I were to come off would the power pct work? I have HCG in preparation but it is pharma grade in 1500 iu amps. How would I fare running the power pct with 3000iu HCG instead of the 2500 just for the sake of convenience of using two amps EOD??
> 
> Thanks in advance...


Well, once mixed it lasts a pretty long time, you can preload the pins and freeze them, just thaw and shoot.

Yah, it should be fine though.

If you use bac water you can shoot now, at 500iu twice a week to keep the nuts alive.


----------



## kal-hell

Thanks for such a quick reply...

So your power pct protocol using 3000iu EOD for 8 shots its OK ya think?

Taking into account I've never used HCG is it still OK to start it now?? I don't understand how it would make a difference at 500iu if for example I hadn't actually recovered previously - can't get bloods...

Sorry if I so and stupid.


----------



## hackskii

Why not run the HCG right now while you are on cycle?


----------



## kal-hell

I can but what I mean is is the 500iu twice weekly gonna reawaken shut down leydig cells or do they need the big EOD doses to reawaken them so to speak.

Assume I've been shut down since April 2012... Thanks again


----------



## hackskii

kal-hell said:


> I can but what I mean is is the 500iu twice weekly gonna reawaken shut down leydig cells or do they need the big EOD doses to reawaken them so to speak.
> 
> Assume I've been shut down since April 2012... Thanks again


Oh, I get ya, no the 500iu twice a week wont wake them up, unless you did for like 20 weeks or something.


----------



## kal-hell

OK thanks. I'll just run the protocol with 8 x 3000iu HCG shots then and hope for the best when the time comes... ;-)


----------



## JR8908

Hi Hacks I have a problem/dilemma and would like to know your thoughts and get some advice if possible mate.

I ran a cycle that looked like this

Week 1-8 - 600-700mg test enanthate pw

Week 9-11 - 150mg prop 3 x pw

Hcg 500iu 2 x pw

Week 13 - 14 20/20 nolva and 100/50 clomid (I stopped the serms as I felt like total crap)

Now it's 4 weeks since my last pin and 1 week since I stopped the serms and I am showing all the signs of low test/no test. I didn't manage to pin hcg throughout all the cycle, missed probably 4 weeks of hcg. I am feeling probably the worst I've felt coming off, no libido, no erections, tired, brain fog, amxiety, dry as hell skin etc.

Now my dilemma is what to do next, I'm off away in 2 weeks with my girl and worried that trying to ride out will not be enough and don't want to go away feeling like this, just can't happen. So I was thinking of running some prop at 50mg eod from now until I get back off hol (total of 12 shots) and then start the power pct.

Does this sound ok to you or do you think I should try and ride it out before holiday?

Also, if I do the power pct is it as per your original recommendations on the first page? I seem to remember reading somewhere recently about reducing the clomid dose whilst on the hcg?

Whether I ride it out or do the power pct I want to be done with taking stuff now as I'm done with the roller coaster of hormones and ups and downs. I was thinking the power pct may set me up nicely for staying off permanently?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks


----------



## hackskii

Well, it depends.

first of all I would have kept the clomid at 100mg, you probably will need to run the nolva at 20mg ED and ride this one out.

If you had full testicular function then you should be ok, if not then you will need time to return to normal.


----------



## JR8908

hackskii said:


> Well, it depends.
> 
> first of all I would have kept the clomid at 100mg, you probably will need to run the nolva at 20mg ED and ride this one out.
> 
> If you had full testicular function then you should be ok, if not then you will need time to return to normal.


Cheers mate. I have replied I'm the other thread that I made if you can have a look.

Many thanks!!!


----------



## MS30

I recently found out I have low testosterone after using pro hormones which I thought did not require cycling. In a 348-1197 scale I was 230 and after a few days of clomid I was 384 lh at 5 out of .5-12. Bloodwork was done after a week of last dose. I am currently taking deer antler and other herbs and waiting for new doc to do further bloodwork and check E2 levels. If herbs are ineffective I am plan on trying doctor Scally protocol 100mg clomid 30 days and 20mg nolva 45 days, then go from there. I was wondering if there are any longer protocols like the 2 months of clomid? And what are the doses? Thank you.


----------



## MS30

MS30 said:


> I recently found out I have low testosterone after using pro hormones which I thought did not require cycling. In a 348-1197 scale I was 230 and after a few days of clomid I was 384 lh at 5 out of .5-12. Bloodwork was done after a week of last dose. I am currently taking deer antler and other herbs and waiting for new doc to do further bloodwork and check E2 levels. If herbs are ineffective I am plan on trying doctor Scally protocol 100mg clomid 30 days and 20mg nolva 45 days, then go from there. I was wondering if there are any longer protocols like the 2 months of clomid? And what are the doses? Thank you.


 I forgot to mention that my last testosterone reading was 211 (241-827) scale. Only a 6% increase from 230 on higher 1197 scale.


----------



## hackskii

Well, you can do 20mg nolva for 45 days, and 100mg clomid for 2 weeks, then another 3 weeks of 50mg ED.

I also would take 5000iu vitamin D every day.

Would have been nice to see your LH.


----------



## MS30

hackskii said:


> Well, you can do 20mg nolva for 45 days, and 100mg clomid for 2 weeks, then another 3 weeks of 50mg ED.
> 
> I also would take 5000iu vitamin D every day.
> 
> Would have been nice to see your LH.


Thanks for the input, for my LH do you mean LH from the last reading? or initial? I would have liked to get that as well. I have a question about D3, my calcium levels are in range but pretty high. Will D3 put level into toxic range? I'm at 9.3 out of 8.5 to 10.2 scale. Vitamin D was 40 out of 30-100 scale. I can still get erections but I have to use manual stimulation and occasional morning erections. I have had to twist arms just to get labs other than T levels at office I might have to use online E2 kit for estrogen. Thanks again.


----------



## hackskii

That is fine, you can be a bit up in D with no worries, its not like other vitamins or minerals that will disrupt things.

If you feel good, then keep doing what you are doing.


----------



## MS30

hackskii said:


> That is fine, you can be a bit up in D with no worries, its not like other vitamins or minerals that will disrupt things.
> 
> If you feel good, then keep doing what you are doing.


Feeling better with Pantosterone and Rhodiola and Ashwagandha. Supposed to give it another two months to see if it makes any improvement in T levels. If not I will definitely give your protocol a go. I have read that it might take a few cycles for HPTA to kick back in. Thank you for the advice, hopefully I will be another success story.


----------



## strangeheart

Hey Hackskii was hoping i could get some advice as I'm thinking about running the protocol. I'm 27 years old and ran a pro-hormone cycle about 4 years back cuz I didn't know what I was getting into and was just following my friends.. well you live and you learn. Had bloods done and my t came back low. It was around 270. After some low dosage clomid it went up to around 500 in just a couple weeks. Doctor said I was normal but never really got my libido back, no spontaneous erections and sometimes depending on the day i just feel downright ****ty. Also developed mild gyno (puffy nips). I supp vitamin D 5000iu and fish oils, but like i said, never really got back to the way i felt before and have just kind of accepted the fact i may never feel like i did until i read this thread. i'm more than down to try this protocol i just dont want to end up worse off than i am now. thanks


----------



## hackskii

strangeheart said:


> Hey Hackskii was hoping i could get some advice as I'm thinking about running the protocol. I'm 27 years old and ran a pro-hormone cycle about 4 years back cuz I didn't know what I was getting into and was just following my friends.. well you live and you learn. Had bloods done and my t came back low. It was around 270. After some low dosage clomid it went up to around 500 in just a couple weeks. Doctor said I was normal but never really got my libido back, no spontaneous erections and sometimes depending on the day i just feel downright ****ty. Also developed mild gyno (puffy nips). I supp vitamin D 5000iu and fish oils, but like i said, never really got back to the way i felt before and have just kind of accepted the fact i may never feel like i did until i read this thread. i'm more than down to try this protocol i just dont want to end up worse off than i am now. thanks


So, after a prohormone cycle 4 years ago you never recovered from that?

Do you take any scrip drugs at all?


----------



## strangeheart

hackskii said:


> So, after a prohormone cycle 4 years ago you never recovered from that?
> 
> Do you take any scrip drugs at all?


Nah I went in soon after and the first doc said it was all in my head and tried to send me to a psychologist and prescribed Cialis lol. So I found another doc who ran a blood test and thats when my t came back at 270. I wish i had the results still I've been trying to track them down, but he said everything was in normal limits including lh levels. I told him 270 was low and he said it it's normal, even after I explained to him all my symptoms. So i did some more research on my own thinking I could get things going again and got some clomid. After finding a third doctor i explained to him everything and he wanted to put me on trt which I was against. Two weeks of clomid and my t levels went up past 500 and the doctor said everything looked good. Havent been checked in awhile though and I'm positive they didn't stay up for long. I took some tribulus for awhile and that worked ok but then i heard it could be suppressive so i wasn't to keen on it after that. Also tried Tongkat Ali and felt a difference on that too.


----------



## chi-raq nick

Hey hacski I'm supposed to go see a anti aging doctor Monday cause I still didn't feel recovered after a year everything is in range 455-500 TT fluctuation and low bioavailble testosterone and high shbg 44 even know it starting going down since November 2012 from 53.

The low bioavailble testostrone explains no morning wood . My lh is ok 5.6 but my fsh is always low 2 , I don't wanna be in TRT so should I tell him to put me on hcg since my testicle were shrunken ?? I tried clomid and it brought my TT from 500 to 800 in 2 weeks so I'm not primary . What would you recommend ? I still have 10.000 iu of hcg i can use and a month worth of clomid .

It's almost been a year and still feel the same .i figure I tell him to put me on hcg even know my lh is on range but my fsh is always low .

If you give me an advice I be grateful.


----------



## hackskii

strangeheart said:


> Nah I went in soon after and the first doc said it was all in my head and tried to send me to a psychologist and prescribed Cialis lol. So I found another doc who ran a blood test and thats when my t came back at 270. I wish i had the results still I've been trying to track them down, but he said everything was in normal limits including lh levels. I told him 270 was low and he said it it's normal, even after I explained to him all my symptoms. So i did some more research on my own thinking I could get things going again and got some clomid. After finding a third doctor i explained to him everything and he wanted to put me on trt which I was against. Two weeks of clomid and my t levels went up past 500 and the doctor said everything looked good. Havent been checked in awhile though and I'm positive they didn't stay up for long. I took some tribulus for awhile and that worked ok but then i heard it could be suppressive so i wasn't to keen on it after that. Also tried Tongkat Ali and felt a difference on that too.


I kind of suspect something else going on here, I would have a hard time swallowing a prohormone cycle 4 years ago still has the effects you are getting today.

I think you would need a full hormonal panel to see a good picture of what is going on.


----------



## hackskii

chi-raq nick said:


> Hey hacski I'm supposed to go see a anti aging doctor Monday cause I still didn't feel recovered after a year everything is in range 455-500 TT fluctuation and low bioavailble testosterone and high shbg 44 even know it starting going down since November 2012 from 53.
> 
> The low bioavailble testostrone explains no morning wood . My lh is ok 5.6 but my fsh is always low 2 , I don't wanna be in TRT so should I tell him to put me on hcg since my testicle were shrunken ?? I tried clomid and it brought my TT from 500 to 800 in 2 weeks so I'm not primary . What would you recommend ? I still have 10.000 iu of hcg i can use and a month worth of clomid .
> 
> It's almost been a year and still feel the same .i figure I tell him to put me on hcg even know my lh is on range but my fsh is always low .
> 
> If you give me an advice I be grateful.


I think HCG would be a bad idea here.

HCG will lower LH big time.

High SHBG can be many things, including highish estrogen, or even a look at the thyroid might not be a bad idea.

Are you taking vitamin D at 5000iu a day?


----------



## latblaster

Couple of odd posts.


----------



## chi-raq nick

My thyroid is in range also my estrogen ultra sensitive is 16 so is in range vitamin d I been taking 5000 iu a day like you told me since last year . Last year I did sustanon 750 a week for 14 weeks and Winstrol injection for 38 days . My shbg is going down but is taking forever its barely moving 1 point a month . I think the Winstrol it was a bad badge or something . My doctor said its not permanent and it could take up to 2 years for everything to return to normal . But I'm going to this anti aging doctor since most doctors don't know nothing he specializes in hormones . My liver function is fine also so this idiopathic high shbg is weird . Would should I tell this doctor Monday cause I defenetly do t wanna be on trt? With my TT I don't need to be , thank you.


----------



## chi-raq nick

By the way I figure why the shbg is the problem cause I was taking stinging neetle and everything was ok morning wood and libido but my doctor told me to stop cause it will create dht problems and kidney and I only have one kidney .


----------



## hackskii

chi-raq nick said:


> By the way I figure why the shbg is the problem cause I was taking stinging neetle and everything was ok morning wood and libido but my doctor told me to stop cause it will create dht problems and kidney and I only have one kidney .


Playing with DHT in my opinion is never a good idea, unless you are old, and have prostate issues, other than that modifying any hormone has some cascade of influence on other hormones.


----------



## chi-raq nick

Since my shbg started going down from November 53.9 in January to 45 and then this stupid doctor put me on clomid dispite my lh being well with in range so that's what stopped the process of it going down and now is 44 what you think hacskskii wait it out ? Or TRT ? I'm not primary or secondary I just don't know what to ask when I see this endo Monday .

It's my fault too cause from all the knowledge I got here I should of told him my lh is fine 7.2 and that clomid will raise shbg .


----------



## hackskii

chi-raq nick said:


> Since my shbg started going down from November 53.9 in January to 45 and then this stupid doctor put me on clomid dispite my lh being well with in range so that's what stopped the process of it going down and now is 44 what you think hacskskii wait it out ? Or TRT ? I'm not primary or secondary I just don't know what to ask when I see this endo Monday .
> 
> It's my fault too cause from all the knowledge I got here I should of told him my lh is fine 7.2 and that clomid will raise shbg .


Or, you may just do a short course of proviron, that will bring SHBG down some without really affecting things much, and probably give you a bump in libido.

Many things affect SHBG, too much estrogen can as well.

Another option is low dose at like adex at .5mg twice a week, then see how you feel.

Remember as well, clomid will bump up testosterone too.


----------



## chi-raq nick

For some odd reason clomid lowered my lh from 7.2 to 5.6 and my TT testosterone from 519 to 455 after I was done but while I was on it it took it to 850 in 2 weeks and raised my shbg . My estrogen ultra sensitive is 16 so its great . But I will ask the doctor for proviron do you know if they prescribe it ?


----------



## hackskii

chi-raq nick said:


> For some odd reason clomid lowered my lh from 7.2 to 5.6 and my TT testosterone from 519 to 455 after I was done but while I was on it it took it to 850 in 2 weeks and raised my shbg . My estrogen ultra sensitive is 16 so its great . But I will ask the doctor for proviron do you know if they prescribe it ?


Not sure, I am in the states and they never scrip that drug.


----------



## chi-raq nick

Oh **** I'm in the states too is there Anything they prescribe in the states for shbg ?? Thank you bro.


----------



## hackskii

chi-raq nick said:


> Oh **** I'm in the states too is there Anything they prescribe in the states for shbg ?? Thank you bro.


Just use a mild AI like adex at .5mg twice a week max.

But that may drive estrogen a bit low.


----------



## MS30

I was wondering if there are any protocols for toremifene? Would that combine with clomid and replace Nolva? Or vice versa? And what doses would be recommended?


----------



## hackskii

MS30 said:


> I was wondering if there are any protocols for toremifene? Would that combine with clomid and replace Nolva? Or vice versa? And what doses would be recommended?


Not to my knowledge.


----------



## Marylandmuscle

IF you will be on for 24 weeks... Can you take HCG during the whole cycle like 250-500 ius each 3 day or 4 to not get really shut down.. Then 1-2 weeks after last inject go with this protocol and pct? Will the hcg during cycle be a waste of time?


----------



## hackskii

Marylandmuscle said:


> IF you will be on for 24 weeks... Can you take HCG during the whole cycle like 250-500 ius each 3 day or 4 to not get really shut down.. Then 1-2 weeks after last inject go with this protocol and pct? Will the hcg during cycle be a waste of time?


Why so long a cycle?


----------



## Marylandmuscle

Because iam getting ready for a show so I wanted to give 12 weeks of build up and 12 weeks of diet. Change things in time with the stuffs you are taking. Then go off for about more then 5-6 months afterwards. Going HCG all the way but stop with it 6-7 weeks Before show because of estrogen and all that. THen after the show is over wait 1-2 weeks then go with Power HCG 2000-2500mcg eod in 14 Days like you shown. So thats why.. other wise I often go like 12-14 weeks cycles and off. But will be off a longer time after this competition so. But i take the HCG during cycle because make recovery faster afterwards. Some like to go hcg during cycles.. Some dont. I know my friend did pretty high dosages and never got off for about 3 years...Then after 11 months with out taking hcg or anything his tests was normal and no probbs at all.


----------



## hackskii

One could use HCG for a while, but it is hard to say with how much one can get away with for how long, and how much before it may be an issue.

As the cycles get longer, so would the hypothetical.


----------



## Marylandmuscle

I mean.. To use HCG for a year if peoples are on for year isnt maybe good. But 5-6 months isnt so bad? Then you take it out 6-8 weeks out from comp so 1-2 months if gone with HCG. So lets say it will be like 3 months. Do you Think its bad to go low dose 250-500mcg e3day on cycle? Then I will break after this for a long time and recooperate with Power PCT.


----------



## hackskii

I always suggest HCG while on cycle, but I also do not suggest 6 month cycles either.


----------



## Marylandmuscle

I know 3 months cycles is standard. But whats hard with 6 months cycles(if you go moderate dosages like 500 test a week etc not 1000 and up)? Can you recover from it with right pct and rest from steroids up to 6 months and more?


----------



## hackskii

Marylandmuscle said:


> I know 3 months cycles is standard. But whats hard with 6 months cycles(if you go moderate dosages like 500 test a week etc not 1000 and up)? Can you recover from it with right pct and rest from steroids up to 6 months and more?


Yah, but when guys go on for long periods of time, they can get issues with all kinds of things, and for just a bit of muscle there is a risk.

Sure you can recover, but I feel better off steroids than on.


----------



## dannyp90

Hacksii, could I dose 5000ui e3d? Or is the gap between doses to long? Reason for this is I'm away from home with work and although still can cook food (at work) and go to the gym as normal I don't have a fridge were I am staying, I'm home on weekends and on wednesday.


----------



## hackskii

dannyp90 said:


> Hacksii, could I dose 5000ui e3d? Or is the gap between doses to long? Reason for this is I'm away from home with work and although still can cook food (at work) and go to the gym as normal I don't have a fridge were I am staying, I'm home on weekends and on wednesday.


I don't like that idea, way to overkill.


----------



## dannyp90

hackskii said:


> I don't like that idea, way to overkill.


What do you recommend reconstitute and leave in a cool place?


----------



## hackskii

dannyp90 said:


> What do you recommend reconstitute and leave in a cool place?


Or get the 2000iu multi-use vials, or the 1500iu pregnyl ones.


----------



## dannyp90

hackskii said:


> Or get the 2000iu multi-use vials, or the 1500iu pregnyl ones.


Pin 2000ui EOD instead?


----------



## hackskii

dannyp90 said:


> Pin 2000ui EOD instead?


Sure


----------



## hackskii

dannyp90 said:


> Pin 2000ui EOD instead?


Sure


----------



## Marylandmuscle

Hacksii.. I have taken 2,5 half month now but I will go off. I am tapering down now but.. I Think i took 500mg the week Before and this week 250... Can I stop completely next week and just wait 14-20 Days then go on the HCG Power PCT? Or should I go one week with 250 more then go off completely?


----------



## Marylandmuscle

Or wait like the PCT calculator shows until 4 weeks have past then to the PCT?


----------



## Marylandmuscle

And also wonder is clomid and nolva a must in the post therapy to do it right? Cant you juse use the HCG? Some people say CLOMID makes their testo just go up with 10% and estrogen 300%... Maybe with nolva also? Or whats your opinion about it.. What happends if you just take the HCG as post therapy?


----------



## hackskii

Tapering down is fine, the allows you to get used to the lower androgens and help avoid a crash from your body feeling low in androgens.

Wait 2 weeks then start the Power PCT.

Yah, don't worry about the clomid and nolva, they will be fine.

I kind of would like you to use just 1 tab a day of clomid during the first week or so, then you can run it for a bit longer at 100mg or after the 30 days drop it to 50mg and run for 5 weeks total on the clomid, 6 weeks on the nolva.

Clomid wont do much of anything for LH while on HCG, FSH perhaps, not LH, so we need a bit more time for the clomid to work on LH post HCG use.


----------



## Marylandmuscle

Many people say like 1500 / 6-7 shots would do fine? What are your opinions about that? Do it like eod it will be like 10-14 Days.

But like this is okay?

Clomid 30-35 Days 50mg ED or go 100mg first 14 Days and then the rest 50mg ed

Nolvadex 40-45 Days 20mg ED

HCG 1500 eod / e3day 6-7 shots.

And go all the same?

Looks good to go?

I have taken HCG during my cycle 250-500mcg e3d so now I am waiting 2 weeks for the PCT and not taking hcg until its time for the pct.


----------



## hackskii

Marylandmuscle said:


> Many people say like 1500 / 6-7 shots would do fine? What are your opinions about that? Do it like eod it will be like 10-14 Days.
> 
> But like this is okay?
> 
> Clomid 30-35 Days 50mg ED or go 100mg first 14 Days and then the rest 50mg ed
> 
> Nolvadex 40-45 Days 20mg ED
> 
> HCG 1500 eod / e3day 6-7 shots.
> 
> And go all the same?
> 
> Looks good to go?
> 
> I have taken HCG during my cycle 250-500mcg e3d so now I am waiting 2 weeks for the PCT and not taking hcg until its time for the pct.


For your first question, it depends how long a person has been on, and if one was to use HCG during the cycle, short cycles with lets say anavar then no problem, long cycles with tren and deca in the mix, not enough stimulation to recover testicular function.

Second one would be better to do 50mg during the HCG, then 100mg after, or if no HCG, then you can do 100mg to help fire things up, then reduce the dose and go longer.

If you use HCG at 500iu twice a week during the cycle, you keep it in there till the start of your PCT, then drop the HCG, and use the SERMS.


----------



## sawyer1

The 8 shots and 45 days of nolva and clomid do u run them all starting at the same time or the hcg before?


----------



## Marylandmuscle

Yee oxandrole, tren and decca shuts you down hard. But lets say you do a long cycle to 20 weeks then the Power PCT should be the one to go with. So i would go for that then afterwards. But if you dont take tren, deca etc then its easier to get back to normal stats.


----------



## Marylandmuscle

Also i wonder if you used hcg during cycle of 2,5 months.. And going off.. Then I wait like 2-3 weeks no hcg nothing. Should I still take HCG in the PCT? maybe not 2000-2500 but 1000-1500 eod or e3d in the pct because ive already done 250-500mcg e3d in the cycle. OR you dont have to use hcg if you did take it during cycle? I mean does it harm you if you should take it in pct but you took it in your cycle on AAS?


----------



## hackskii

sawyer1 said:


> The 8 shots and 45 days of nolva and clomid do u run them all starting at the same time or the hcg before?


Start all the same time.



Marylandmuscle said:


> Yee oxandrole, tren and decca shuts you down hard. But lets say you do a long cycle to 20 weeks then the Power PCT should be the one to go with. So i would go for that then afterwards. But if you dont take tren, deca etc then its easier to get back to normal stats.


Easier to recover for sure.



Marylandmuscle said:


> Also i wonder if you used hcg during cycle of 2,5 months.. And going off.. Then I wait like 2-3 weeks no hcg nothing. Should I still take HCG in the PCT? maybe not 2000-2500 but 1000-1500 eod or e3d in the pct because ive already done 250-500mcg e3d in the cycle. OR you dont have to use hcg if you did take it during cycle? I mean does it harm you if you should take it in pct but you took it in your cycle on AAS?


Use the HCG all the way through your cycle, through the clearance time with the gear, then drop the HCG and use the SERMS.


----------



## Marylandmuscle

So hcg trough cycle.. then paus 1-2 weeks then go hcg again like what would be best 500 ed for 7 Days or 1000-1500 e3d in 10-14 Days then wait 4-7 Days and go SERM clomid + nolva? Some say you shouldnt go HCG plus SERMs together and break them up.


----------



## hackskii

Marylandmuscle said:


> So hcg trough cycle.. then paus 1-2 weeks then go hcg again like what would be best 500 ed for 7 Days or 1000-1500 e3d in 10-14 Days then wait 4-7 Days and go SERM clomid + nolva? Some say you shouldnt go HCG plus SERMs together and break them up.


I am sure I was pretty clear, no where in my post did I suggest HCG being used in PCT if HCG was used during the cycle, and certainly not more than what kept testicular function during the cycle.


----------



## MS30

Hey hackskii, going to the doc later this week. I am going to definitely request estrogen along with the rest of my blood work. I was just wondering what can be done if my estrogen levels are high before starting nolva and clomid. Will an AI be required? Or will nolva be enough?


----------



## hackskii

MS30 said:


> Hey hackskii, going to the doc later this week. I am going to definitely request estrogen along with the rest of my blood work. I was just wondering what can be done if my estrogen levels are high before starting nolva and clomid. Will an AI be required? Or will nolva be enough?


Why would they be high?


----------



## MS30

Not sure, but I wanted to get a full workup. The new doc is better than the old one but still doesn't know a whole lot about hormones. We talked about using clomiphene but he said I would have to go through endo for that. Took a look at my last bloods and said he doesn't think I have hypogonadism since my free testosterone is in range: 4.3 (1.5-4.2) and total test 228 (348-1197) of original blood work. He told me that free test is what is important, but I told him I still have low energy and problems with getting and maintaining erections, so obviously there is still a problem. I felt great, and everything was functioning well when I was taking clomiphene so I might have to take some kind of protocol to restore function. The blood work should come back in about two weeks. What are your thoughts?


----------



## hackskii

MS30 said:


> Not sure, but I wanted to get a full workup. The new doc is better than the old one but still doesn't know a whole lot about hormones. We talked about using clomiphene but he said I would have to go through endo for that. Took a look at my last bloods and said he doesn't think I have hypogonadism since my free testosterone is in range: 4.3 (1.5-4.2) and total test 228 (348-1197) of original blood work. He told me that free test is what is important, but I told him I still have low energy and problems with getting and maintaining erections, so obviously there is still a problem. I felt great, and everything was functioning well when I was taking clomiphene so I might have to take some kind of protocol to restore function. The blood work should come back in about two weeks. What are your thoughts?


Have you ever used steroids before?


----------



## MS30

hackskii said:


> Have you ever used steroids before?


I did use prohormones such as trenadrol,massdrol and pheramass, on and off until about 4 years ago. Would that cause some hormone desensitization, or something else that would affect bound testosterone levels?


----------



## SteveV

What's the docs protocol if you can't get HCG?

I finished a 5 week oral course, my body **** down hard - went to a doc and asked for HCG, but no, not without blood test, the doc disnt believe my body shut down

Results come back - 2.5, now doc says they want another blood test for FSH/LH incase my pityritary is shut down - and wants to put me on low level dose of test FFS

I explain that, as per my last consultation I am taking clomid and nolvadex, so shouldn't be a problem, and I want my body to produce its own test, so no more low doses, just HCG to restart.

she bloody phones a friend, who says no, he must have more tests - I'm like, why am I here if you're just relaying messages?

Anyway, I told her what I thought of her dr skills and now I'm back to square 1

So if anyone knows how to bring test back without HCG? I have lost half my gains and no sex drive at all, this is depressing the **** out of me


----------



## hackskii

MS30 said:


> I did use prohormones such as trenadrol,massdrol and pheramass, on and off until about 4 years ago. Would that cause some hormone desensitization, or something else that would affect bound testosterone levels?


If you are hypogodal, then there may be something else going on here, which at this case would be cause for further investigation.


----------



## hackskii

SteveV said:


> What's the docs protocol if you can't get HCG?
> 
> I finished a 5 week oral course, my body **** down hard - went to a doc and asked for HCG, but no, not without blood test, the doc disnt believe my body shut down
> 
> Results come back - 2.5, now doc says they want another blood test for FSH/LH incase my pityritary is shut down - and wants to put me on low level dose of test FFS
> 
> I explain that, as per my last consultation I am taking clomid and nolvadex, so shouldn't be a problem, and I want my body to produce its own test, so no more low doses, just HCG to restart.
> 
> she bloody phones a friend, who says no, he must have more tests - I'm like, why am I here if you're just relaying messages?
> 
> Anyway, I told her what I thought of her dr skills and now I'm back to square 1
> 
> So if anyone knows how to bring test back without HCG? I have lost half my gains and no sex drive at all, this is depressing the **** out of me


Generally speaking 5 week courses of orals are pretty tame.

What did you take superdrol?

Yes you can recover without HCG.

100mg clomid ED for 30 days

20mg nolva for 45 days

5000iu vitamin E ED

3mg boron ED

1 cod liver tab ED

25mg zinc a day at night before bed

200 to 400mg magnesium ED

How long have you been on clomid and when was the last day of your cycle?

And what oral did you take, and at what amount?


----------



## SteveV

I was taking 50mg dbol and 50mg winny ED

I was also taking 15mg nolvadex (1/2 a 30mg) ED

I started 50mg clomid and 15 mg nolvadex ED immediately following my last day on the dbol

About 1 week into PCT I was loosing size and strength, so upped to 100mg clomid and 30 mg nolvadex ED

Been doing that for 2 weeks when I went to see the dr as I was still regressing (and I haven't touched the mrs since either)

So now I am 3 weeks and 4 day into PCT

I had my androgens tested before I did the dbol, was just over 22, which dr said was good

Thanks heaps for the alternate protocol, I've got some shopping to do


----------



## hackskii

SteveV said:


> I was taking 50mg dbol and 50mg winny ED
> 
> I was also taking 15mg nolvadex (1/2 a 30mg) ED
> 
> I started 50mg clomid and 15 mg nolvadex ED immediately following my last day on the dbol
> 
> About 1 week into PCT I was loosing size and strength, so upped to 100mg clomid and 30 mg nolvadex ED
> 
> Been doing that for 2 weeks when I went to see the dr as I was still regressing (and I haven't touched the mrs since either)
> 
> So now I am 3 weeks and 4 day into PCT
> 
> I had my androgens tested before I did the dbol, was just over 22, which dr said was good
> 
> Thanks heaps for the alternate protocol, I've got some shopping to do


Well, you probably are not feeling too well from the SERMS too, this is a common side of them.

Sad that you did 5 weeks of orals and now still are not back after 3 weeks plus on SERMS.


----------



## SteveV

Sad is not the word I was thinking

Thanks again


----------



## hackskii

SteveV said:


> Sad is not the word I was thinking
> 
> Thanks again


Not a problem.

In the future probably winstrol is not going to be a drug I would recommend.

Also, smaller cycles like 30mg dbol if it is legit would be fine, or low dose testosterone using HCG during.


----------



## MS30

Would a clmiphene and nolva cycle still be helpful? Or would an AI protocol/treatment be a possible option? I will give you blood work results as soon as I get them. I am also looking for endos in my area, I found a few that specialize in reproduction. Found online bio available test calculator

Albumin*g/dL 3.9

SHBG*nmol/L*14.7

Testosterone*ng/dL*4.3

Free Test 0.119 ng/dl 2.78%

Bio Test 2.55 ng/dl 59.3%

Thank you for all the responses.


----------



## MS30

Saw the previous post, I was wondering would toremifene might be something to try if clomiphene doesn't do the trick. Like tylenol vs ibuprofen, has anyone had success with that serm?


----------



## hackskii

MS30 said:


> Saw the previous post, I was wondering would toremifene might be something to try if clomiphene doesn't do the trick. Like tylenol vs ibuprofen, has anyone had success with that serm?


Tore probably wont be as effective in most men, but you are using both clomid and nolva, so I dont see you benefiting anything from its use.

If you use blood work, please put reference ranges in there, different countries, and labs use different measuring, and values.


----------



## MS30

hackskii said:


> Tore probably wont be as effective in most men, but you are using both clomid and nolva, so I dont see you benefiting anything from its use.
> 
> If you use blood work, please put reference ranges in there, different countries, and labs use different measuring, and values.


I believe that ng/dl is used for most readings, I have to double check lab reports.

Albumin 3.9 (3.4-4.5) g/bl

Free Test 4.3 (1.5-4.2) ng/dl

SHBG 14.7 (16.5-55.9) ng/dl

My main question is that as long as estrogen levels are not too high would the 5 week protocol you mentioned be still worth a try based on my levels thus far?

Btw here are some more of my prior levels

LH 4.34 (0.57-12.07)

FSH 5.0 (1.4-13.6)

Total Test 228 (348-1197) ng/dl

Vitamin D 42 (30-100)

Thanks again.


----------



## MS30

Deleted post*


----------



## hackskii

MS30 said:


> I believe that ng/dl is used for most readings, I have to double check lab reports.
> 
> Albumin 3.9 (3.4-4.5) g/bl
> 
> Free Test 4.3 (1.5-4.2) ng/dl
> 
> SHBG 14.7 (16.5-55.9) ng/dl
> 
> My main question is that as long as estrogen levels are not too high would the 5 week protocol you mentioned be still worth a try based on my levels thus far?
> 
> Btw here are some more of my prior levels
> 
> LH 4.34 (0.57-12.07)
> 
> FSH 5.0 (1.4-13.6)
> 
> Total Test 228 (348-1197) ng/dl
> 
> Vitamin D 42 (30-100)
> 
> Thanks again.


Something looks wrong here to me.

LH, FSH, free testosterone are all in range.

SHBG is low thus the reason for less binding of free testosterone.

Are you taking an AI right now?

I would do a few weeks of clomid and see if your LH bumps up and gives you more total testosterone.

Or, you might have a bad lab result, or was not taken in the morning like it is supposed to be.


----------



## MS30

hackskii said:


> Something looks wrong here to me.
> 
> LH, FSH, free testosterone are all in range.
> 
> SHBG is low thus the reason for less binding of free testosterone.
> 
> Are you taking an AI right now?
> 
> I would do a few weeks of clomid and see if your LH bumps up and gives you more total testosterone.
> 
> Or, you might have a bad lab result, or was not taken in the morning like it is supposed to be.


I apologize, 228 (348-1197) reading was taken before clomiphene, LH, FSH, SHBG were taken 6 days after last dose. Test was 384 (348-1197). Free test 4.04 (1.5-4.2)


----------



## MS30

Lab was taken yesterday and I requested LH FSH and Testosterone Estrogen levels. I have been taking otc supps like dhea, but i dont think it will affect the levels too much, dhea 30-50mg daily. Last test reading was 211 (241-827) scale on 30mg dhea.


----------



## hackskii

MS30 said:


> I apologize, 228 (348-1197) reading was taken before clomiphene, LH, FSH, SHBG were taken 6 days after last dose. Test was 384 (348-1197).


OK, that makes alot more sense.

You went from 228 to 384 in 3 weeks right?



MS30 said:


> Lab was taken yesterday and I requested LH FSH and Testosterone Estrogen levels. I have been taking otc supps like dhea, but i dont think it will affect the levels too much, dhea 30-50mg daily. Last test reading was 211 (241-827) scale on 30mg dhea.


Drop the DHEA, it is not suggested to take this in any preparation over 25mg with men.

DHEA can elevate estrogen in men, testosterone in women, and if you are not like 60 years old, drop it.

You are throwing alot of numbers here, if you are sitting at 384 right now, I dont see much problem bumping that up some with the use of clomid.


----------



## MS30

hackskii said:


> OK, that makes alot more sense.
> 
> You went from 228 to 384 in 3 weeks right?
> 
> Drop the DHEA, it is not suggested to take this in any preparation over 25mg with men.
> 
> DHEA can elevate estrogen in men, testosterone in women, and if you are not like 60 years old, drop it.
> 
> You are throwing alot of numbers here, if you are sitting at 384 right now, I dont see much problem bumping that up some with the use of clomid.


No longer at 384, scale of (241-827) im 211. Clomiphene I was on for 5 days and went off for 6 days to get more accurate bloods, old doc did not perform E levels. Do you think that I could start protocol while I wait to find decent endocrinologist?


----------



## hackskii

MS30 said:


> No longer at 384, scale of (241-827) im 211. Clomiphene I was on for 5 days and went off for 6 days to get more accurate bloods, old doc did not perform E levels. Do you think that I could start protocol while I wait to find decent endocrinologist?


Me personally.

I would start clomid at 100mg for 7 days, then drop it to 50 for a month, then after the 5 weeks you do EOD with 50mg and run that for a month, then you can drop to 12.5mg EOD for another month.

I think it is the sudden stop that is the problem, seen guys that have even low dose run for a while put LH off the upper end of the chart, I think his LH was 25 or something crazy like that.

Vitamin D really helps too, once I was diagnosed low I started on 5000iu vitamin D every day and starting getting night time erections and sex dreams.


----------



## MS30

Thank you very much for all the input. This is the last protocol you mentioned, 20mg nolva for 45 days, and

100mg clomid for 2 weeks, then another 3 weeks of 50mg ED, and 5000iu vitamin D every day. Can I do this protocol or clomid solo as you just mentioned? The one you just mentioned sounds better for tapering off but im wondering if i should include nolva.

Already doing vitamin D 5000 liqui gels.


----------



## hackskii

MS30 said:


> Thank you very much for all the input. This is the last protocol you mentioned, 20mg nolva for 45 days, and
> 
> 100mg clomid for 2 weeks, then another 3 weeks of 50mg ED, and 5000iu vitamin D every day. Can I do the above protocol or clomid solo as you just mentioned?
> 
> Already doing vitamin D 5000 liqui gels.


Well, you can do clomid alone, but clomid works well withing like a week, once your nuts get more sensitive to LH, you wont need the big guns to move the numbers, then over time even lowering the dose of clomid still spikes LH, I have seen guys numbers pretty damn high after tapering that down over time to pretty low amounts and still get great stimulation.

The tapering is a good idea to me to make a smooth transition, and so once you just cut it, it wont dive back down.


----------



## MS30

hackskii said:


> Well, you can do clomid alone, but clomid works well withing like a week, once your nuts get more sensitive to LH, you wont need the big guns to move the numbers, then over time even lowering the dose of clomid still spikes LH, I have seen guys numbers pretty damn high after tapering that down over time to pretty low amounts and still get great stimulation.
> 
> The tapering is a good idea to me to make a smooth transition, and so once you just cut it, it wont dive back down.


So just the clomid for now for about 3 months, then eventually cut it entirely, and I should be good to go? How many milliliters do you think I will need total? I'm thinking about 90ml. Are there any symptoms I should look for that would indicate a need to include nolva? Be a shame to let it go to waste.


----------



## hackskii

MS30 said:


> So just the clomid for now for about 3 months, then eventually cut it entirely, and I should be good to go? How many milliliters do you think I will need total? I'm thinking about 90ml. Are there any symptoms I should look for that would indicate a need to include nolva? Be a shame to let it go to waste.


ml?

Is that the liquid stuff?


----------



## MS30

Yes. I will start protocol once blood work comes back.


----------



## hackskii

OK, no worries, just try to relax, drop all your other stuff for now.

Try to get a good night sleep.

Try to relax, I see no long term issues, but you do need to relax.

Can you do that?

A bit of trust here, you will be fine.


----------



## Marylandmuscle

So hacksii.. clomid and nolva are incase the only Tools you need after cycle to get back on track if thats the right thing to say  ? I mean i took hcg 250-500mcg during my whole cycle of 2,5 months and my balls isnt that small. Infact iven ever even paied attention that my balls have been smaller or anything under my cycles ive been on and done.. Never felt or anything that they have been smaller or anything what I can feel or felt over time. But to the question ive took hcg 250-500mcg during my cycle.. And now been off Everything from 3 weeks and starting pct today nolva / clomid was my idea of 20 / 50 of each in 30 Days. But should i go hcg again with 500 maybe in 10-14 Days e3d just to be sure or will the SERMs be enough?


----------



## hackskii

Marylandmuscle said:


> So hacksii.. clomid and nolva are incase the only Tools you need after cycle to get back on track if thats the right thing to say  ? I mean i took hcg 250-500mcg during my whole cycle of 2,5 months and my balls isnt that small. Infact iven ever even paied attention that my balls have been smaller or anything under my cycles ive been on and done.. Never felt or anything that they have been smaller or anything what I can feel or felt over time. But to the question ive took hcg 250-500mcg during my cycle.. And now been off Everything from 3 weeks and starting pct today nolva / clomid was my idea of 20 / 50 of each in 30 Days. But should i go hcg again with 500 maybe in 10-14 Days e3d just to be sure or will the SERMs be enough?


Its hard to say, if you did 500iu twice a week during your cycle then perhaps that would be good enough, but you were a bit light on the HCG during.

How do you feel now?

Can you get an erection?


----------



## Marylandmuscle

Well yes i can masturbate one to two times a day haha and get out sperm if thats what you mean erection hehe  Or should i go now with clomid nolva some hcg also? Like 3-4 shots of 500 extra to be sure?


----------



## hackskii

Marylandmuscle said:


> Well yes i can masturbate one to two times a day haha and get out sperm if thats what you mean erection hehe  Or should i go now with clomid nolva some hcg also? Like 3-4 shots of 500 extra to be sure?


Drop the HCG, and continue with the SERMS.


----------



## MS30

hackskii said:


> OK, no worries, just try to relax, drop all your other stuff for now.
> 
> Try to get a good night sleep.
> 
> Try to relax, I see no long term issues, but you do need to relax.
> 
> Can you do that?
> 
> A bit of trust here, you will be fine.


Hey Hackskii, just got labs back here are the results.

ESTRONE (E1)

ESTRADIOL (E2) 8.8 (4.6-42.6)

ESTROGENES 36 (40-115)

DHEA 188 (31-701)

Testosterone 172 (148-1097)

SHBG 14.6 (16.5 -55.9)


----------



## Marylandmuscle

Okay thanks mate! I started yesterday so taking clomid 50 and nolva 20 each day. Thinking of 30 Days each of both would be enough? Its like one month.


----------



## hackskii

MS30 said:


> Hey Hackskii, just got labs back here are the results.
> 
> ESTRONE (E1)
> 
> ESTRADIOL (E2) 8.8 (4.6-42.6)
> 
> ESTROGENES 36 (40-115)
> 
> DHEA 188 (31-701)
> 
> Testosterone 172 (148-1097)
> 
> SHBG 14.6 (16.5 -55.9)


Looks ok so far, you must be using an AI or something your estrogen is a bit on the low side, but might be from those test boosting things.

Why no LH, or FSH?


----------



## hackskii

Marylandmuscle said:


> Okay thanks mate! I started yesterday so taking clomid 50 and nolva 20 each day. Thinking of 30 Days each of both would be enough? Its like one month.


Thats fine, wont hurt anyway.


----------



## MS30

Not sure, I asked for them. Guess I will have to wait for endo, I've been putting calling one off due to busy schedule. Can I start protocol today, or wait til tomorrow?


----------



## MS30

Siberian Eleuthero is an herb that issupposed to bind estrogen. It has helped with energy level.


----------



## Marylandmuscle

But Hacksiii your recomandation is to go the HCG during cycles and not after and just kick with the serms right? Or only use the HCG like the last 2-3 weeks left of cycle in some high dosages.


----------



## MS30

hackskii said:


> Looks ok so far, you must be using an AI or something your estrogen is a bit on the low side, but might be from those test boosting things.
> 
> Why no LH, or FSH?


Just started rat on protocol yesterday 50mg last night, and 50mg this morning and another 50mg late afternoon. I believe last batch was super concentrat3d since it was in paste form and had to be heated to turn it into liquid. Rat was administered doses in the morning rather than twice or more throughout the day. 225mg, 150mg for five days then down to 100mg and 50mg on last day of six day administration. New batch is liquid at room temp with 95% purity.


----------



## hackskii

Marylandmuscle said:


> But Hacksiii your recomandation is to go the HCG during cycles and not after and just kick with the serms right? Or only use the HCG like the last 2-3 weeks left of cycle in some high dosages.


I never recommend using HCG the last few weeks of a cycle.

I do however suggest the use of HCG during the cycle to keep and or maintain testicular function.

If you have not used any HCG and find yourself in a problem, then you pretty much have two choices, ride it out, or use HCG.



MS30 said:


> Just started rat on protocol yesterday 50mg last night, and 50mg this morning and another 50mg late afternoon. I believe last batch was super concentrat3d since it was in paste form and had to be heated to turn it into liquid. Rat was administered doses in the morning rather than twice or more throughout the day. 225mg, 150mg for five days then down to 100mg and 50mg on last day of six day administration. New batch is liquid at room temp with 95% purity.


Why a rat protocol?

225mg of clomid in my opinion is not something that I would suggest.



MS30 said:


> Siberian Eleuthero is an herb that issupposed to bind estrogen. It has helped with energy level.


Well, it is just basically just Siberian Ginseng and I don't feel it will be all that, unless you are going through drug withdrawal, ginseng is used alot in China.


----------



## MS30

That was initial protocol. When I first found out about clomiphene 300mg and 150mg was recommended for initial protocol. So I split the difference. 100mg is the most my rat can handle. Your latest recommendation is the one being utilized now as of today. Just mentioned previous info to see if desensitization could be an issue.


----------



## hackskii

Actually endocrinologists use clomid at 100mg ED for 5 to 7 days to see of LH output doubles, and there is an increase in FSH from 20% to 50%.

Hence why the suggestion for 300mg which is overkill to say the least.

Not to mention ocular toxicity with the use of clomid is well known.

I assume we are talking rat is in a metaphor of self then?

No need to speak in riddles, that tends to throw things off.


----------



## Marylandmuscle

I have allways used it through out cycles because thats how ive been learned to use it like 250-500mcg 2 times a week or each 3rd day if that what you can call it. And only SERMS after the cycle is over.


----------



## MS30

hackskii said:


> Actually endocrinologists use clomid at 100mg ED for 5 to 7 days to see of LH output doubles, and there is an increase in FSH from 20% to 50%.
> 
> Hence why the suggestion for 300mg which is overkill to say the least.
> 
> Not to mention ocular toxicity with the use of clomid is well known.
> 
> I assume we are talking rat is in a metaphor of self then?
> 
> No need to speak in riddles, that tends to throw things off.


No permanent ocular side effects from clomiphene. Other temporary problems with other serms, btw d3 has improved erections, and vision, a stubborn eye floater is almost gone. Can person take 5000mg of d3 on a continuous basis?


----------



## hackskii

MS30 said:


> No permanent ocular side effects from clomiphene. Other temporary problems with other serms, btw d3 has improved erections, and vision, a stubborn eye floater is almost gone. Can person take 5000mg of d3 on a continuous basis?


Yes, and I have done this now for about 2 years with zero problems.

I get them on sale for buy one, get one free.

I did not get many night time erections before and I am 53, so I thought it was my age.

The very first day I took 5000iu vitamin D, I got a night time erection which I thought was strange.

I was diagnosed low in vitamin D, and it was very low.

Second day on 5000iu, I had a sex dream.

Then it is like what the hell is going on here, so did some reading on it and found out it does raise testosterone levels.

Makes sense as fertility is highest in the summer months when we are outside more and get more sunlight.

I remember reading years ago that sun bathing the upper body can increase testosterone by up to 128%.

I love the stuff, and even last night had night time wood, and kind of a sex dream.


----------



## SteveV

hackskii said:


> Generally speaking 5 week courses of orals are pretty tame.
> 
> What did you take superdrol?
> 
> Yes you can recover without HCG.
> 
> 100mg clomid ED for 30 days
> 
> 20mg nolva for 45 days
> 
> 5000iu vitamin E ED
> 
> 3mg boron ED
> 
> 1 cod liver tab ED
> 
> 25mg zinc a day at night before bed
> 
> 200 to 400mg magnesium ED
> 
> How long have you been on clomid and when was the last day of your cycle?
> 
> And what oral did you take, and at what amount?


Had bloods done again - now back up to 11.8 (from 2.5) feeling a lot better - and I found a dr that wasn't a stranger to hormone therapy so now have some hCG also 

thanks again for your help Hackskii


----------



## MS30

hackskii said:


> Yes, and I have done this now for about 2 years with zero problems.
> 
> I get them on sale for buy one, get one free.
> 
> I did not get many night time erections before and I am 53, so I thought it was my age.
> 
> The very first day I took 5000iu vitamin D, I got a night time erection which I thought was strange.
> 
> I was diagnosed low in vitamin D, and it was very low.
> 
> Second day on 5000iu, I had a sex dream.
> 
> Then it is like what the hell is going on here, so did some reading on it and found out it does raise testosterone levels.
> 
> Makes sense as fertility is highest in the summer months when we are outside more and get more sunlight.
> 
> I remember reading years ago that sun bathing the upper body can increase testosterone by up to 128%.
> 
> I love the stuff, and even last night had night time wood, and kind of a sex dream.


Hey Hackskii, I have noticed some energy improvement but not nearly as much as last time around at higher doses. How long will it take to notice results at 50mg ×2 daily? I am at my fifth day.


----------



## hackskii

MS30 said:


> Hey Hackskii, I have noticed some energy improvement but not nearly as much as last time around at higher doses. How long will it take to notice results at 50mg ×2 daily? I am at my fifth day.


Depends on how much testicular function you already have, and how well you respond to clomid.


----------



## MS30

hackskii said:


> Depends on how much testicular function you already have, and how well you respond to clomid.


I guess what Im asking is, how long should I wait to increase the dose? Or will it just take longer to kick in at lower doses? Or how long before ai throw in nolva along with clomid? Thanks.


----------



## hackskii

MS30 said:


> I guess what Im asking is, how long should I wait to increase the dose? Or will it just take longer to kick in at lower doses? Or how long before ai throw in nolva along with clomid? Thanks.


I can only tell you what the guidelines are.

100mg clomid for 5 to 7 days doubles LH output and puts FSH at 20% to 50% increase.


----------



## MS30

hackskii said:


> I can only tell you what the guidelines are.
> 
> 100mg clomid for 5 to 7 days doubles LH output and puts FSH at 20% to 50% increase.


The new supplier must have sent a bad batch. I will use another supplier for next 7 days. Thanks again.


----------



## MS30

MS30 said:


> The new supplier must have sent a bad batch. I will use another supplier for next 7 days. Thanks again.


Hey Hackskii, I am on the 7th day of using different batch. I am a little better but I am not at the same level as I was with higher dose. I would take 150-200mg once a day. Should I just go through the protocol and do another one with nolva? Or perhaps add nolva on this one? Thank you very much. So far no vision or emotional side effects. More ejaculate so I know its working a little. Thanks again.


----------



## hackskii

MS30 said:


> Hey Hackskii, I am on the 7th day of using different batch. I am a little better but I am not at the same level as I was with higher dose. I would take 150-200mg once a day. Should I just go through the protocol and do another one with nolva? Or perhaps add nolva on this one? Thank you very much. So far no vision or emotional side effects. More ejaculate so I know its working a little. Thanks again.


I myself would not go past 100mg ED.


----------



## MS30

hackskii said:


> I myself would not go past 100mg ED.


Alright, any idea why it is not as effective as last time. I was masturbating a little less than now but still I would think it would be about the same. What do you think about using nolva now or wait a month after I am done with the three month cycle you recommended? Thanks. BTW ran out of previous stock, so I took 50mg old and 50mg new this morning.


----------



## hackskii

There are two reasons why you dont feel quite right.

First you did not have full testicular function prior to starting the Clomid.

Or, the clomid makes you feel not so normal.


----------



## MS30

hackskii said:


> There are two reasons why you dont feel quite right.
> 
> First you did not have full testicular function prior to starting the Clomid.
> 
> Or, the clomid makes you feel not so normal.


I am feeling better, last Testosterone reading was lower but I am taking time off due to a muscle strain and school work. I am still having ED issues, but I was reading that this should improve week by week. Testicles are getting bigger with slight ache on and off. Does the ache go away once testicles are back to full size and function? Appreciate the responses, I will keep you posted.


----------



## hackskii

It will go away, but ball ache probably at this point is a good thing.


----------



## MS30

hackskii said:


> It will go away, but ball ache probably at this point is a good thing.


I ordered clomid from another place, since I am not sure that the supply I just bought has the stated potency. If that turns out to be the case should I just keep going using 50mg daily? Last good supply was a little old too, three months sitting while waiting for herbs to do the trick. Thanks again.

The batch I have now is super weak. Last batch 1 dose(?mg) = instant energy. This one just numbing. Should get better product by Saturday.


----------



## MS30

Im getting a new batch of clomid tomorrow. If prior batches were weaker dose should I go back to 100mg for a few days? Or just keep going at 50mg?


----------



## hackskii

MS30 said:


> Im getting a new batch of clomid tomorrow. If prior batches were weaker dose should I go back to 100mg for a few days? Or just keep going at 50mg?


You can run it for a week at 100.


----------



## MS30

On 3rd day of 100mg clomid with new batch, feeling more energetic in the gym but still have some erection issues and soft morning erections. If 100mg at 5he end of 7 days should I use 50mg clomid and 20mg nolva? Or just wait and see how clomid solo goes? Thanks again.


----------



## hackskii

Keep the clomid at 100 for now, you can drop it down later.


----------



## MS30

hackskii said:


> Keep the clomid at 100 for now, you can drop it down later.


So no Nolvadex later?


----------



## hackskii

Now not later.


----------



## MS30

Got it, I will keep you posted. I only have 30 doses of nolva on hand, will I need 45?


----------



## hackskii

MS30 said:


> Got it, I will keep you posted. I only have 30 doses of nolva on hand, will I need 45?


45 wont hurt you.


----------



## MS30

hackskii said:


> 45 wont hurt you.


I apologize, I misread your post of NOW not later for Nolva. I will take 20mg ED starting today, finishing 100mg of clomid in a few days. Clomid batches are not as strong as first batch. Im looking forward to using nolva combo.


----------



## MS30

hackskii said:


> 45 wont hurt you.


So far adding nolva has been working out great, more erections and better sleep.


----------



## MS30

hackskii said:


> 45 wont hurt you.


Hi Hacksii! Recently went to Doc, and was not at all thrilled with protocol. I am dropping to 12.5mg EOD next week unless you think I should stop sooner. Still doing 50mg EOD and 20mg nolva ED. LH super high 22 with 8 as max. Here are the results.

FSH 12.8 (1.5-12.4)

Testosterone 624 (249-836)

Free Test 145 (47-244)

Percent free Test 2%

LH 22.7 (1.7-8.6)

Prolactin 14.2 (4-15.2)

Estradiol <5 (8-43)

SHBG 27 (10-80)


----------



## hackskii

Wow, those are some crazy numbers.

Who says SERMS dont work with LH numbers like that, hell even FSH is even over max.

Prolactin is a strange one here, that one should probably be lower, perhaps using the amino acid tyrosine may help curb that some.

Might also want to take these two B vitamins B3 and folic acid as they are needed for the conversion of tyrosine to dopamine.

Could drop the clomid down to 12.5mg 3 times a week, then taper it off completely.

Crazy numbers even estrogen is low...lol.


----------



## MS30

hackskii said:


> Wow, those are some crazy numbers.
> 
> Who says SERMS dont work with LH numbers like that, hell even FSH is even over max.
> 
> Prolactin is a strange one here, that one should probably be lower, perhaps using the amino acid tyrosine may help curb that some.
> 
> Might also want to take these two B vitamins B3 and folic acid as they are needed for the conversion of tyrosine to dopamine.
> 
> Could drop the clomid down to 12.5mg 3 times a week, then taper it off completely.
> 
> Crazy numbers even estrogen is low...lol.


Thanks Hacksii. Yeah, I saw the LH and was thinking immediately to cut back. I took a little more clomid today about 40mg and 20mg nolva. I am cutting it down to 12.5mg 3 times a week starting tomorrow, my vision has been getting a little blurry as well at long distances so I need to def cut back. Should I also stop taking nolva now as well? Or wait a few more days to complete 45 day protocol? Also how many more weeks should I use clomid at the 12.5mg dose? Hopefully once I am off the levels will hold and SHBG will drop, estrogen will rise a little and back to normal sex function. I was also thinking of adding B6 vitamin supplement to deal with elevated prolactin; what are your thoughts on that? One more thing, someone had a similar issue after using pro hormones and recommended using Caber to lower prolactin levels and he bounced back, I will also add tyrosine and B3 vitamins, how much B3 should I take? Thank you again for your advice.


----------



## hackskii

MS30 said:


> Thanks Hacksii. Yeah, I saw the LH and was thinking immediately to cut back. I took a little more clomid today about 40mg and 20mg nolva. I am cutting it down to 12.5mg 3 times a week starting tomorrow, my vision has been getting a little blurry as well at long distances so I need to def cut back. Should I also stop taking nolva now as well? Or wait a few more days to complete 45 day protocol? Also how many more weeks should I use clomid at the 12.5mg dose? Hopefully once I am off the levels will hold and SHBG will drop, estrogen will rise a little and back to normal sex function. I was also thinking of adding B6 vitamin supplement to deal with elevated prolactin; what are your thoughts on that? One more thing, someone had a similar issue after using pro hormones and recommended using Caber to lower prolactin levels and he bounced back, I will also add tyrosine and B3 vitamins, how much B3 should I take? Thank you again for your advice.


I cant remember the amounts of the B-vitamins, but B-vitamins work best when taken together, so take a B-complex, then add the others too it.

Inhibiting too much prolactin will compromise some leydig cells so just a bit of curbing it would be probably the best idea.

Inhibiting some prolactin can decrease refractory times between orgasms.


----------



## MS30

hackskii said:


> I cant remember the amounts of the B-vitamins, but B-vitamins work best when taken together, so take a B-complex, then add the others too it.
> 
> Inhibiting too much prolactin will compromise some leydig cells so just a bit of curbing it would be probably the best idea.
> 
> Inhibiting some prolactin can decrease refractory times between orgasms.


What about nolva? Should I cut to 10mg or just stop now?


----------



## MS30

hackskii said:


> I cant remember the amounts of the B-vitamins, but B-vitamins work best when taken together, so take a B-complex, then add the others too it.
> 
> Inhibiting too much prolactin will compromise some leydig cells so just a bit of curbing it would be probably the best idea.
> 
> Inhibiting some prolactin can decrease refractory times between orgasms.


Started combining tyrosine and b3,b6, and folic acid all at max daily doses. I have also cut nolva to 10mg for the next few days until the full 45 are done. I also cut down clomid to 12.5mg 3 days a week like you recommended. Got a lot of erections last night and in morning, and it is easy to get them during the day. Libido not as high but with SHBG being substantial its no surprise. Hopefully my levels hold up, if not I have read that more than one pct may be required. It is not unsual after long shutdown, also prohomone users seem to have good results with torem. Thanks again Hacksii, I will keep you posted.


----------



## monetwothree

hackskii said:


> I talked to the doc today on the phone and he answered many questions for me in regards to recovery of the HPTA.
> 
> For those of you who don't know what that is it is "Hypothalamus Pituitary Testicular Axis"
> 
> After administration of AAS, you have shutdown of the HPTA. Depending on the meds taken shutdown can be severe and much does depend on the person as well.
> 
> This is the protocol the doc said he used in literally thousands of users with suppressed HPTA.
> 
> First thing, the 500iu a day was not enough to make the testicles do their job, he suggested this was just a waste of time and money.
> 
> He suggests 8 shots of HCG @ 2500iu EOD.
> 
> With this you take 20 mg of nolvadex for 45 days.
> 
> Clomid is also taken but twice a day @ 50mg each dose 12 hours apart.
> 
> The reason for the amounts of HCG (which is the most important part, if the balls don't fire everything else is worthless), is based on his determination to bring the balls back to life, too little wont accomplish this, too much risks damage to the Leydig cells.
> 
> So he basically was saying that you do the HCG and around day 10 of the above protocol, you should get a blood test for testosterone. If it is above 400 or greater then this says the balls will be just fine once you get off the HCG and the Clomid and nolva take over. This will accept the LH that you are putting out to maintain testicular function.
> 
> He used the term like jumping a car. Your battery (Pituitary gland) if low wont start your car (your testicles), if you use another car and jumper cables (HCG) once the car starts your battery (HP part of the HPTA) will keep your car running.
> 
> The clomid by itself he suggested can inhibit either the pituitary or the hypothalamus (can't remember which one) but if taken with nolva this blocks the estrogen receptors so you wont inhibit that.
> 
> So clomid in his protocol is always taken with nolvadex ALWAYS.
> 
> He did mention that sometimes the balls just don't take and then you do the protocol again. He said it was rare that he could not fire up the HPTA.
> 
> He said that beings that I have good size difference (balls), feel good, strength gains, and a greasy face he felt I should have no problems with returning the HPTA.
> 
> Some things he said was tribulis was actually inhibitory on the HPTA, great I wish I found that out after I bought two bottles.
> 
> ZMA, he said if it made me feel good then go for it but it is placebo and the HCG, clomid, nolva was it and all that is needed.
> 
> Talked to him about progesterone and he said never take that if you are a man (the last doc prescribed it to me)
> 
> Sorry aftershock, I forgot to ask him about the GH question he was saying so much I was just trying to listen.
> 
> One thing he did mention (in an article) was that HGH actually helped with the testicular recovery with things and adding that to the Protocol is a good idea and productive.
> 
> Avoid aspirin when on HCG as it kind of ruins the effects.
> 
> He said oxandrolone was suppressive on the HPTA, but Deca and Anadrol were probably the worst in his opinion. I asked him about tren but he had no knowledge as he never used it.
> 
> He did mention that test in itself was not all that suppressive and he has seen guys on 18 months that came off and made a full recovery in 45 days with the above protocol.
> 
> He said one of the best ways was 12 weeks of test, followed by the above protocol, then start another 12 weeks followed by the above protocol with a month off after that then start again.
> 
> He did say that desensitization to HCG took around 2 months, and the dose of 2500 was fine and no damage or desensitization would occur if you followed his protocol.
> 
> There it is.


could you clarify the aspirin effect ? also acetaminophen or Tylenol or any other types of pain relievers cause issues like that ?


----------



## ELECTRICF

Hi Hackskii I like the ideas I have been reading here on PCT. I've actually been on without coming off for a little over a year. I go on 12 weeks before a powerlifting competition and then cruise the rest of the time. I have been having erection issues for a while now, and they are very inconsistent even with the use of cialis. I have a competition on oct 5 so I cant come off at the moment and another one on march 2 2014 so that dosnt give me a wide window. I was wondering if you had any ideas on combating this issue, and if it would be worthwhile doing the protocol you suggested even though I will have to go on again 12 weeks prior to march 2. Currently I'm taking arimidex .5mg eod 500mg test enan a week, 400mg eq a week, and 50mg dbol on training days. I cruise at 250mg enan a week. I was trying to PM you but for some reason its not allowing me to do so. Any help would be appreciated.


----------



## BigTrev

fukin doctor who,,,its startin to cheese me off now


----------



## monetwothree

BigTrev said:


> fukin doctor who,,,its startin to cheese me off now


why ??


----------



## BigTrev

monetwothree said:


> why ??


because im a qualified sergeon and do homers at brain surgery

I charge,,,£200 for a full overhall...


----------



## monetwothree

BigTrev said:


> because im a qualified sergeon and do homers at brain surgery
> 
> I charge,,,£200 for a full overhall...


can i get a .345 overhaul ?? i dont know the exchange rate but i can only put 21 dollars into anything for my brain


----------



## BigTrev

monetwothree said:


> can i get a .345 overhaul ?? i dont know the exchange rate but i can only put 21 dollars into anything for my brain


ok certainly and cause you usa you get discount,,,as the usa rocks in my books

tho firstly you need to send me your bank details along with any passwords you use,,,don't be fearful this company is the best at cleaning


----------



## monetwothree

BigTrev said:


> ok certainly and cause you usa you get discount,,,as the usa rocks in my books
> 
> tho firstly you need to send me your bank details along with any passwords you use,,,don't be fearful this company is the best at cleaning


 :lol: :lol: love you guys  i think the usa is quickly becoming third world ... jmo ....


----------



## BigTrev

monetwothree said:


> :lol: :lol: love you guys


USA class,,,great nation and take no nonsense attitude,,,,hope some day I get to visit the usa


----------



## monetwothree

io got to look across the mighty Niagara at the great Canada and would love to visit there as well one day .... been to Moscow a few times and loved it there and Amsterdam of course was just tops in my book Warsaw was good too but seriously the people of Europe are far more genuine and friendly than the Americans i know and i grew up here :lol: ... again jmo


----------



## hackskii

monetwothree said:


> could you clarify the aspirin effect ? also acetaminophen or Tylenol or any other types of pain relievers cause issues like that ?


I did not ask him why not to use aspirin with HCG, its just what he said.

I know another doctor (Eugine Shippen), noticed that those deficient in vitamin D had less of a response from HCG, and Vitamin D is known for boosting testosterone levels if one is deficient in D.

I love the stuff myself.



ELECTRICF said:


> Hi Hackskii I like the ideas I have been reading here on PCT. I've actually been on without coming off for a little over a year. I go on 12 weeks before a powerlifting competition and then cruise the rest of the time. I have been having erection issues for a while now, and they are very inconsistent even with the use of cialis. I have a competition on oct 5 so I cant come off at the moment and another one on march 2 2014 so that dosnt give me a wide window. I was wondering if you had any ideas on combating this issue, and if it would be worthwhile doing the protocol you suggested even though I will have to go on again 12 weeks prior to march 2. Currently I'm taking arimidex .5mg eod 500mg test enan a week, 400mg eq a week, and 50mg dbol on training days. I cruise at 250mg enan a week. I was trying to PM you but for some reason its not allowing me to do so. Any help would be appreciated.


Pretty common side for guys on a long time, could be many things, including estrogen being too low.


----------



## ELECTRICF

Do you think im taking too much ai? How much do you take while on? Would it be of any benefit to run your pct after this meet on oct 5th considering I have to go on again 12 weeks before march 5?


----------



## ELECTRICF

Do you think im taking too much ai? How much do you take while on? Would it be of any benefit to run your pct after this meet on oct 5th considering I have to go on again 12 weeks before march 5?


----------



## Paul Era

Hi All

This is my first post. I have been watching the site for a while and im currently doing PCT

After a three month test prop cycle I have undertaken the PCT mentioned by Hackski in the first post on this thread.

I am third week in so have completed all the hcg and now on clomid and novla. My nuts feel more solid than they did and

have defo grown but my mood is swinging all over the place and my libido is through the floor. I managed to get an errection

last night but it was weak and then the semen produced was almost water in its consistency. Im not getting morning woods or

having them when I wake up at night. My sleep pattern is also ****ed and im waking up loads

Basically I am reaching out for advice as I need to know that this will get better as im getting really depressed.

Do I just need to ride this out and keep on with the tablets. Im due to finish them on Oct 12th. If anyone can give me advice then please let me know. I would really appreciate it


----------



## hackskii

Keep going, I take it you felt pretty good while on the HCG right?


----------



## Paul Era

hackskii said:


> Keep going, I take it you felt pretty good while on the HCG right?


Yeah sex drive wasnt great but I thought PCT was going to be a breeze as I felt pretty good. It was after the hcg ended that I started feeling rough/tempremental/ Im going to keep on with PCT.

Thanks for getting back to me


----------



## hackskii

Stick with it, only way is up now, it will get better.


----------



## Paul Era

hackskii said:


> Stick with it, only way is up now, it will get better.


Thank you. Will do


----------



## MS30

hackskii said:


> I cant remember the amounts of the B-vitamins, but B-vitamins work best when taken together, so take a B-complex, then add the others too it.
> 
> Inhibiting too much prolactin will compromise some leydig cells so just a bit of curbing it would be probably the best idea.
> 
> Inhibiting some prolactin can decrease refractory times between orgasms.


Hey Hacksii, I'm still feeling good and have harder morning erections. A few days ago I had erections that were so ha4d it almost hurt. I was wondering if it would be ok if I used some Tongkat Ali to help things along and wheat grass to help detox from serms? I also got some Igf1 Lr3 to help make new leydig cells and resensitize the one's I have. Thank you very much.


----------



## hackskii

That would be fine but not necessary actually.


----------



## ELECTRICF

hackskii said:


> I did not ask him why not to use aspirin with HCG, its just what he said.
> 
> I know another doctor (Eugine Shippen), noticed that those deficient in vitamin D had less of a response from HCG, and Vitamin D is known for boosting testosterone levels if one is deficient in D.
> 
> I love the stuff myself.
> 
> Pretty common side for guys on a long time, could be many things, including estrogen being too low.


Hey Hackskii,

Do you think that doing a month of hcg 1000 ius eod every other month like the doc suggested he does for TRT patients would be beneficial in restoring my testicular function since I cannot come off until march?


----------



## MS30

hackskii said:


> That would be fine but not necessary actually.


Hey Hacksii, my erections have been going down in hardness and frequency the last two days. I read that vitamin E can lower testosterone. I have been taking it for about a week now to help stem any estrogen rebound. I have stopped taking it as of today upon learning about this. I am also taking 8mg ED of vitamin C powder to manage cortisolIs there anything else I should avoid taking, and what supps can I take that will manage estrogen and cortisiol? Thank you.


----------



## hackskii

ELECTRICF said:


> Hey Hackskii,
> 
> Do you think that doing a month of hcg 1000 ius eod every other month like the doc suggested he does for TRT patients would be beneficial in restoring my testicular function since I cannot come off until march?


Well, if testicular function has not been achieved then perhaps, but if some what, over stimulation probably would occur.



MS30 said:


> Hey Hacksii, my erections have been going down in hardness and frequency the last two days. I read that vitamin E can lower testosterone. I have been taking it for about a week now to help stem any estrogen rebound. I have stopped taking it as of today upon learning about this. I am also taking 8mg ED of vitamin C powder to manage cortisolIs there anything else I should avoid taking, and what supps can I take that will manage estrogen and cortisiol? Thank you.


DHEA, and NCA for cortisol.

Estrogen= Cruciferous Vegetables, low dose zinc at 25mg, vitamin D, and DIMM but probably wont need to do anything.


----------



## MS30

hackskii said:


> Well, if testicular function has not been achieved then perhaps, but if some what, over stimulation probably would occur.
> 
> DHEA, and NCA for cortisol.
> 
> Estrogen= Cruciferous Vegetables, low dose zinc at 25mg, vitamin D, and DIMM but probably wont need to do anything.


I'm taking 50mg of zinc and 2mg copper eod. Vitamin E is supposed to stay in body for about a week. Hopefully things will be rocking again by then. Still improvement in overall energy, and pumps. Should I avoid DHEA until I'm done with clomid? And what does NCA stand for? I have made appt with doc next in Nov to check levels. Thank you again.


----------



## hackskii

MS30 said:


> I'm taking 50mg of zinc and 2mg copper eod. Vitamin E is supposed to stay in body for about a week. Hopefully things will be rocking again by then. Still improvement in overall energy, and pumps. Should I avoid DHEA until I'm done with clomid? And what does NCA stand for? I have made appt with doc next in Nov to check levels. Thank you again.


NAC, sorry...lol

Lower the zinc, no need for that much, and you can drop the copper too.

DHEA is fine if cortisol is high, 25mg max.


----------



## MS30

hackskii said:


> NAC, sorry...lol
> 
> Lower the zinc, no need for that much, and you can drop the copper too.
> 
> DHEA is fine if cortisol is high, 25mg max.


Thanks. Last cortisol reading back in April was cortisol 10.6 (2.4-18.6)


----------



## hackskii

MS30 said:


> Thanks. Last cortisol reading back in April was cortisol 10.6 (2.4-18.6)


You are in range, just try to relax and stay off stimulants.


----------



## MS30

hackskii said:


> You are in range, just try to relax and stay off stimulants.


Will do.


----------



## MS30

hackskii said:


> You are in range, just try to relax and stay off stimulants.


I forgot to mention I am also taking 10k iu of vitamin A ED. I'm not sure if that would cause T levels to go down or estrogen go up.


----------



## hackskii

MS30 said:


> I forgot to mention I am also taking 10k iu of vitamin A ED. I'm not sure if that would cause T levels to go down or estrogen go up.


You do need A, just not alot it stores in our bodies, too much it toxic, but necessary for test production.


----------



## ELECTRICF

hackskii said:


> Well, if testicular function has not been achieved then perhaps, but if some what, over stimulation probably would occur.
> 
> DHEA, and NCA for cortisol.
> 
> Estrogen= Cruciferous Vegetables, low dose zinc at 25mg, vitamin D, and DIMM but probably wont need to do anything.


Well I've been on for about a year and a half blasting and cruising. I did a short run of low dose hcg at 250iu eod for a total of 5000ius during my last cruise, and noticed some benefit in morning wood but shot my estrogen up causing me to break out in back acne real bad, and eventually my libido dropped until I got back on a blast again. I'm coming to the end of this blast as next week is my competition and was trying to decide what path to take on the 2 month window I have before I have to start another blast 12 weeks out from another comp I have in march. In your initial post was the doc suggesting that he would have his clients do a 10-12 week cycle do you the recovery pct take a month off and then cycle again? That dosnt seem like it would be the case but thats what I recall he wrote. Is there any way you could help me figure out how to get my libido and erections back to a more regular frequency and consitency given the fact that I have a 2month window before needing to blast again?


----------



## hackskii

ELECTRICF said:


> Well I've been on for about a year and a half blasting and cruising. I did a short run of low dose hcg at 250iu eod for a total of 5000ius during my last cruise, and noticed some benefit in morning wood but shot my estrogen up causing me to break out in back acne real bad, and eventually my libido dropped until I got back on a blast again. I'm coming to the end of this blast as next week is my competition and was trying to decide what path to take on the 2 month window I have before I have to start another blast 12 weeks out from another comp I have in march. In your initial post was the doc suggesting that he would have his clients do a 10-12 week cycle do you the recovery pct take a month off and then cycle again? That dosnt seem like it would be the case but thats what I recall he wrote. Is there any way you could help me figure out how to get my libido and erections back to a more regular frequency and consitency given the fact that I have a 2month window before needing to blast again?


The doctor never talked about B and C cycles, just recovery.

Your erection and libido issues are linked to being on for a long time.


----------



## Paul Era

Hi HackskiI

Once again thanks for your help so far. Its awesome the advice you give to everyone on here. I have a couple more questions if that's ok

1. On the 45th day should I just stop Nolva completely or taper down?

2. I am going to get a blood test one month after the 45 day recovery schedule. Would the following be what I need to get tested for

Serum Total Test

Serum SHBG

Serum Free Test

Serum LH

Serum FSH

Oestradiol

Progesterone Serum

Serum TSH

Serum Free Thyroxine

Out of these what are related to HTPA function? Is it LH?

3. My sex drive is still not back and the occasionally errections I get are very weak. If I get blood test results and everything is ok other than total test and free test

does that mean my htpa function is ok but just taking a while to recover and create a normal level of test?

4. I am considering a course of hgh next instead of test prop which I have done before. Will this help bring my sex drive back? Im interested as it doesn't shutdown

htpa?

Thanks again

Paul


----------



## hackskii

You can taper the nolva if you like, but nothing makes this a necessity.

Your HPTA are LH, FSH, total testosterone, and free testosterone.

Ask for a hormonal panel and that should cover it but probably not estrogen, nor progesterone, or prolactin, but probably wont need to check those anyways.

It could be that your numbers come back ok but still have issues with erections, happens to some.

HGH might help some, but probably nothing to the sex drive, but it wont hurt you.

Vitamin D at 5000iu a day would be awesome, and not a bad idea.

Take a cod liver cap a day too.


----------



## MS30

hackskii said:


> That would be fine but not necessary actually.


Hey Hacksii, the last few days my morning erections have been getting softer and the last two days I have not had any morning erections. My libido has greatly decreased despite using MT2. My last dose of clomid will be this Sunday. I was wondering if this could be due to estrogen rebound? I hate to think I might need to do another pct cycle. I plan on getting more blood work done next month to check my levels again, in the meantime is there anything that I can take to help reduce any estrogen build up?


----------



## hackskii

Well, you are just going to have to let it run its direction.

Take 5000iu vitamin D every day as well, ever sense taking that I still get night time erections, and last night I had a sex dream where my old boss took her clothes off of her and jumped in bed with me, and I am 54 years old.


----------



## MS30

hackskii said:


> Well, you are just going to have to let it run its direction.
> 
> Take 5000iu vitamin D every day as well, ever sense taking that I still get night time erections, and last night I had a sex dream where my old boss took her clothes off of her and jumped in bed with me, and I am 54 years old.


How long should I give it? 4 weeks or 6, maybe 8? Thanks.


----------



## hackskii

MS30 said:


> How long should I give it? 4 weeks or 6, maybe 8? Thanks.


Well, after a few weeks all things will pretty much be where they will be.

Some guys dont feel all that great on SERMS, so you will know later if anything is going to need to be done.

Just try and relax.


----------



## Paul Era

Hi Hackski

I have just finished the 45 days two days ago. I am still struggling with my libido and erections but feel pretty good other than that. im taking vitamin d 5000 iu and the cod liver like you said. I read somewhere today that there could be estrogen bounce back and I should take adex? Is this right? I have a blood test booked in for 21st Oct. Should I just hold off everything other than vitamin d and cod liver until then? Thanks again Paul


----------



## hackskii

Paul Era said:


> Hi Hackski
> 
> I have just finished the 45 days two days ago. I am still struggling with my libido and erections but feel pretty good other than that. im taking vitamin d 5000 iu and the cod liver like you said. I read somewhere today that there could be estrogen bounce back and I should take adex? Is this right? I have a blood test booked in for 21st Oct. Should I just hold off everything other than vitamin d and cod liver until then? Thanks again Paul


I would not take an AI, if you want low dose clomid EOD would probably be a good idea, but if you feel good, and can have sex, everything will be ok, just some wait time.


----------



## motownrecovery

Hi hackskii and everyone, I'm new here. It seems from what I've read from tons of sites online hackskii and close friends seems to be the most knowledgable on HPTA restart via Dr. Scally etc. Please bear with me if I don't know alot about my problem, Deca shutdown.....suppression and low T for the last few years.

My so called friend *gave me some Deca Durabolin and some Test *to help me get going on a workout program. He *didn't tel me I needed to PCT*. I went into shutdown when I came off. I eventually started to recover naturally, but knew all along even when I could have sex again a month or so later, it wasnt quite right. * I haven't felt right ever since*. I finally got some blood work done due to an event a month ago. Turns out my Test came back in the 280s. Low for a guy like me who was horny and energetic all the time before. Had bloodwork done, ultrasound, x-rays, everything came back normal including thyroid etc except my "what my doc calls" just barely low T.

I took this Deca cycle (sorry i dont remember how much it was or the test etc.)* it was 4 years ago*. I assumed because i didnt find out about PCT till way later, that I was screwed and would need cialis for life....till I started reading online about late recovery PCT/restarting HPTA. One guy on here said he had his nuts shut down for 10 years and came back with hackskii 's help!!!! and some other guys that had been shut down for a year or two or three had rebooted from stuff, maybe long cycles, or TRT's.

I was wondering, *is the hackskii @hackskii and Dr. Scally protocol able to be used by me?* I don't want to go on TRT for life. I was 30 at the time, 35 now, 6 foot 7 athletic guy. I dont want to do any more gear, just get my libido, energy and test levels back to normal, and then slam the gym naturally.

Am I right in the stuff I read, that even though its *been 4-5 years, I can still use Scally's reboot and might be successful? * My boys right now are about the size of small eggs, when I was atrophied they were much smaller years ago. Reading about HCG etc though and the rest of the protocol, it sounds very promising, like I'm just stuck at Deca suppression, and need a kickstart back into normality and regain test and libido and energy.

For now *I'm just asking if this is possible at all*, or if I misread Scally's stuff. Not looking to get into all the numbers right this sec beyond what i've posted, since I don't have access to more details right this sec. I just want to know if anyone in a situation like mine has ever recovered. My bodybuilder buddy believes in the Scally protocol and said he had friends who were totally messed up and suppressed for more than 5 years come back to normal and feel good and normal finally again when they used the Scally protocol. Is he right?

I am not an expert on such things, and that's why I come to this board, which seems to be the best on the net. Scally seems to have great success with restarts, as does hackskii from what I can gather.

So is it *possible to restart 4-5 years later, use the power PCT and recover back to normal from Deca suppression that never quite came back? * I would appreciate feedback. Its just a basic question at this point. Thanks guys. Love these boards. been reading them as a guest for a week now.


----------



## MS30

I'm kind of in the same boat. So far tests indicate that pituitary and nuts are functioning, just the testes seem to not be producing enough total test. I just came off 3 month clomid and 45 days of nolva. The past few days morning wood has been on and off, and I'm getting retested next month. Last reading was over 600 on a 836 scale. A lot more energy and stamina. Especially today, besides clomid and nolva there is also raloxifene, toremifene. I have read that certain people respond better to those serms. I have also tried IGF1 LR3. A peptide which helps to resensitize testicles and can create new leydig cells. Hacksii has been a great help, on the boards he helped out a young guy who was on trt for 3 yrs. So I don't see why it can't work for us.


----------



## motownrecovery

Hims30. Ty for the reply. So it is totally possible then? Just cause its years ago doesn't mean the pct won't work? Glad you are getting energy etc. I hope to attempt scallys protocol soon. Buddy said.hcg is very important first step as in scallys protocol. U have good test numbers. Hope.I can get.back there.


----------



## MS30

I hope they stay there. More than one pct may be required. I have read that it may require going on and off for a year on serms. Dr. Shira Miller also uses a similar protocol but at lower doses and longer periods.


----------



## MS30

Hcg is important if nads have shrunk. Mine are normal size but I will ask Hacksii about it should I need another pct.


----------



## motownrecovery

I hope they do too. Very encouraging youre feeling better. I'm about five years.no pct but I only did one cycle. So scallys protocol could work for me you're saying?

I'm assuming you feel Considerably better than before and your test was much lower before? Tia


----------



## MS30

Check with Hacksii about effectiveness. Pro hormones are a different animal than AAS. But I don't see the harm in trying, worst case scenario we'll end up on trt. My first test was 230 on 1197 scale. Go through the whole thread and search Hacksii's post to get some more info, he should get back to you soon.


----------



## motownrecovery

That's what I was thinking too. My buddy swears that the scally protocol helped his friends in same boat. Just wanted to see if others agree with him that it can happen is all.


----------



## motownrecovery

@MS30 i will try it as soon as I can get the stuff. From what my bud says...I'm just stuck with deca suppression because i never pcted. He says guys have recovered from this years later with the power pct. Im just stuck on hold.till i.do. he says Deca is pretty open and shut in how it makes.one shutdown and this.protocol almost always is.good.for deca shutdown even when performed years later...that the time isn't as big an obstacle in this scenario as others. Eg I'm not atrophied...oor if so its not much...and hcg will get em going.

I started a clomid only round for a week but quit once he pointed me to.scally.protocol. I'm hopeful. He said his.buddy was deca dkd for 9 years and scallys.worked like a charm. Back to normal t levels.


----------



## motownrecovery

also ive noticed an oily nose and upper lip lately. could that be from the 100 mg clomid i was doing for a week or so?


----------



## MS30

Good to hear about deca. Never had oily nose or upper lipfrom clomid. Effects should be temp, should be fine until you cut dose. Have you contacted Hacksii yet? Just respond to one of his posts.


----------



## motownrecovery

im not saying my buddy is right, just saying what he said. im hoping he's right. ive been *searching for days trying to find someone who has had low T and never quite recovered from Deca or something similar, and years later tried the scally protocol and it brought them back to their normal levels! *i read some posts that seemed to say as much but they were always a bit different, and im no expert. usuall they were talking about being on TRT for years, but came back, one dude said it's he same thing basically. Another said his nuts were shut down for ten years and came back so... i dunno...

i rarely get morning wood, can have an erection, but sometimes takes work, sometimes seems softer, balls look like small eggs, normal size, they came back from smaller, but im thinking the HCG would help to make sure anyhow in case theyre 90% or something, get them prepped for scally's pct. my buddy loves that protocol.

as for the oily.... i think it started last week while i was still taking clomid, i tapered it and stopped 2 days ago... oil still here.

as for Hacksii,* i can't do PMs yet, and Hax hasn't come here to reply*. @Hacksii ? i just want to go ahead with the scally protocol asap and see if it helps me out.

i had read elsewhere that the oil could be from my test raising... which would have been from the clomid. sound reasonable?

I had blood tests done, came back just under the normal level. thats all the bloods i can do for now... long story. i just want to know if the scally pct sounds like a great plan for me. seems like it to me at least... i figure it will either work, or im just back where i started. my buddy thinks my history, just one cycle of deca / test with no pct, and just sitting on incomplete recovery for the last few years is the ideal candidate for the POWER PCT, and that he's seen it work for his friends. *I wish Hacksii could give me a general reply, like ya, its worth a shot, or whatever, or that hes seen cases like this where it has worked using the power pct*. just a general, ya, sounds good, good luck.....go for it, and if it doesnt hold, then get more bloods done when i would be able to by that point maybe. thoughts? *maybe you could ask hacksii for me? * its a pretty simple scenario. just one round of this stuff and never quite came back the following years.


----------



## motownrecovery

I think.hackskii is busy or maybe I'm breaking forum.etiquette? I don't mean to. I tried writing On two other threads like you said but no reply.yet. sigh. Want hacks general opinion so bad. I'm so sad right.now. want to get better and marry my.girl.


----------



## hackskii

motownrecovery said:


> im not saying my buddy is right, just saying what he said. im hoping he's right. ive been *searching for days trying to find someone who has had low T and never quite recovered from Deca or something similar, and years later tried the scally protocol and it brought them back to their normal levels! *i read some posts that seemed to say as much but they were always a bit different, and im no expert. usuall they were talking about being on TRT for years, but came back, one dude said it's he same thing basically. Another said his nuts were shut down for ten years and came back so... i dunno...
> 
> i rarely get morning wood, can have an erection, but sometimes takes work, sometimes seems softer, balls look like small eggs, normal size, they came back from smaller, but im thinking the HCG would help to make sure anyhow in case theyre 90% or something, get them prepped for scally's pct. my buddy loves that protocol.
> 
> as for the oily.... i think it started last week while i was still taking clomid, i tapered it and stopped 2 days ago... oil still here.
> 
> as for Hacksii,* i can't do PMs yet, and Hax hasn't come here to reply*. @Hacksii ? i just want to go ahead with the scally protocol asap and see if it helps me out.
> 
> i had read elsewhere that the oil could be from my test raising... which would have been from the clomid. sound reasonable?
> 
> I had blood tests done, came back just under the normal level. thats all the bloods i can do for now... long story. i just want to know if the scally pct sounds like a great plan for me. seems like it to me at least... i figure it will either work, or im just back where i started. my buddy thinks my history, just one cycle of deca / test with no pct, and just sitting on incomplete recovery for the last few years is the ideal candidate for the POWER PCT, and that he's seen it work for his friends. *I wish Hacksii could give me a general reply, like ya, its worth a shot, or whatever, or that hes seen cases like this where it has worked using the power pct*. just a general, ya, sounds good, good luck.....go for it, and if it doesnt hold, then get more bloods done when i would be able to by that point maybe. thoughts? *maybe you could ask hacksii for me? * its a pretty simple scenario. just one round of this stuff and never quite came back the following years.


Power PCT would not be for you.

Clomid would be ok, but also I would take 25mg zinc a day, 300mg magnesium a day, and 5000iu vitamin D every day, that should move things some.

Clomid at 100mg for 7 days, then 50mg for 4 weeks taken every day should move you big time.

You can taper that even longer after the 5 weeks to EOD, then after a period of time, drop it to 25 EOD.

The metabolites from deca can last a long time, but not 4 years, or 10 years, recovery under the worst conditions would be a year.

Your nuts are firing, but with the clomid, you will get an oily face, and night time wood, now grab some of those supps and take them now.


----------



## motownrecovery

Ty hackskii. Would that clomid only run maybe get my levels back up into normal range and keep them there permanently if I taper like u said? Should I run nolva alongside? Shorter Hcg run wouldnt prep for the clomid?

I had run clomid 100 for bout a week and quit 3 days ago but still oil on nose n lip. So it was doing something. I didn't get nightime wood from it in those five days tho.

I will try what ur saying if its a shot at returning to a higher level. I'm asduming ur clomid challenge is an attempt at a lasting fix not ongoing. I really fear trt....ty hackskii. I want to be better so bad.

Can low t make u insomniac n lose appetite n tired?. After tests Doc says I'm just anxious.


----------



## hackskii

motownrecovery said:


> Ty hackskii. Would that clomid only run maybe get my levels back up into normal range and keep them there permanently if I taper like u said? Should I run nolva alongside? Shorter Hcg run wouldnt prep for the clomid?
> 
> I had run clomid 100 for bout a week and quit 3 days ago but still oil on nose n lip. So it was doing something. I didn't get nightime wood from it in those five days tho.
> 
> I will try what ur saying if its a shot at returning to a higher level. I'm asduming ur clomid challenge is an attempt at a lasting fix not ongoing. I really fear trt....ty hackskii. I want to be better so bad.
> 
> Can low t make u insomniac n lose appetite n tired?. After tests Doc says I'm just anxious.


Yes, low T can do that, but so can many things, just try to relax and dont forget to run the vitamin D as suggested.

Oily face is always a good sign.


----------



## motownrecovery

Thanks. I would.like to know if.this has a shot at returning my levels higher and possibly settling say at 4 something permanently instead of 290....or is this for sure going.to be only temp fix n I.come back to.290? I was kind.of getting the impression u think my balls r fine n the oil is great sign ( dont know why but great lol)and this might.be a possible successfull kickstart to my.hpta and I might get permanent results.after taper....not guaranteed.of.course...but.possible....like.maybe others in my position.have pulled this.off with that protocol? Can i run nolva at same.time as clomid and end.nolva later like.scally? Would it.help? Ms30 seems to b doing.well with that and ur.help.

Btw my right ball seems.too high up despite its size. Would some hcg drop it.down? Would clomid drop it too? Some peope posted clomid.plumped their.balls.but.i thought only hcg did that. Just a short couple shots hcg with aromasin before i do your clomid.pct reboot and.vitamin attempt?

Just came.back.from pharmacy with the stuff. Is there a chance.this.will.work.and.hold? Have u seen it.before? Thanks.for.caring...youre my number one resource to try to recover.


----------



## hackskii

motownrecovery said:


> Thanks. I would.like to know if.this has a shot at returning my levels higher and possibly settling say at 4 something permanently instead of 290....or is this for sure going.to be only temp fix n I.come back to.290? I was kind.of getting the impression u think my balls r fine n the oil is great sign ( dont know why but great lol)and this might.be a possible successfull kickstart to my.hpta and I might get permanent results.after taper....not guaranteed.of.course...but.possible....like.maybe others in my position.have pulled this.off with that protocol? Can i run nolva at same.time as clomid and end.nolva later like.scally? Would it.help? Ms30 seems to b doing.well with that and ur.help.
> 
> Btw my right ball seems.too high up despite its size. Would some hcg drop it.down? Would clomid drop it too? Some peope posted clomid.plumped their.balls.but.i thought only hcg did that. Just a short couple shots hcg with aromasin before i do your clomid.pct reboot and.vitamin attempt?
> 
> Just came.back.from pharmacy with the stuff. Is there a chance.this.will.work.and.hold? Have u seen it.before? Thanks.for.caring...youre my number one resource to try to recover.


HCG only works like LH, but also once on HCG it will lower endo production of LH, HCG does nothing for FSH.

Leydig cells that make testosterone are only about 10% of the total mass of the testicles, the other 90% is for sperm production.

HCG will cripple LH, but not FSH, clomiid will move both LH, and FSH.

Low dose clomid seems to work well, and one could use nolva but I dont like using more than what is needed.

It is likely that the 290 number may be skewed from the time of your test, or other things going on.

290 would result in the possibility of going on TRT but if you took the test earlier it probably would be a bit higher, add vitamin D, higher still.

Anyone that is suggesting you use HCG for any reason you suggested above has no clue what they are talking about, you do not need HCG.


----------



## Paul Era

hackskii said:


> I would not take an AI, if you want low dose clomid EOD would probably be a good idea, but if you feel good, and can have sex, everything will be ok, just some wait time.


Hi Hackskii. Once again thank you for all your help far. Im gradually getting better but still not feel 100% so going to stick to the clomid eod. Should I do 50 mg every other day or 25mg every day? Thanks Paul


----------



## Scott9585

Hi,

Just wondering if anyone can point me in a direction.

I finished a long cycle wish consisted of first 14 weeks of test E then tren E, then straight into 10 weeks of Test P, Tren A and Mast.

I came off with HCG at 500iu ed. Looking now I can tell this isn't nearly enough I was just given poor into at the time by someone I thought knew there stuff. I also used tamoxifen.

During the pct I was fine, regular morning wood however upon stopping nothing has really happened. I don't get morning wood anymore but can masturbate and hold an erection. Also the initial sex drive isn't there.

I came off 11 weeks ago and finished of pct 8 weeks ago. Should I run another course of HCG, clomid and nolva? Any advise would be great.

Cheers


----------



## hackskii

Scott9585 said:


> Hi,
> 
> Just wondering if anyone can point me in a direction.
> 
> I finished a long cycle wish consisted of first 14 weeks of test E then tren E, then straight into 10 weeks of Test P, Tren A and Mast.
> 
> I came off with HCG at 500iu ed. Looking now I can tell this isn't nearly enough I was just given poor into at the time by someone I thought knew there stuff. I also used tamoxifen.
> 
> During the pct I was fine, regular morning wood however upon stopping nothing has really happened. I don't get morning wood anymore but can masturbate and hold an erection. Also the initial sex drive isn't there.
> 
> I came off 11 weeks ago and finished of pct 8 weeks ago. Should I run another course of HCG, clomid and nolva? Any advise would be great.
> 
> Cheers


If it was HCG then you would not need much.

If you felt good while on HCG this would suggest that testicular function was achieved with the use of HCG, it is now the pituitary that needs a push.

I would run 100mg clomid for 3 weeks ED, and 20 mg of nolva for 4 to 5 weeks.

That should get you pretty close.

5000iu of vitamin E every day as well.


----------



## Scott9585

hackskii said:


> If it was HCG then you would not need much.
> 
> If you felt good while on HCG this would suggest that testicular function was achieved with the use of HCG, it is now the pituitary that needs a push.
> 
> I would run 100mg clomid for 3 weeks ED, and 20 mg of nolva for 4 to 5 weeks.
> 
> That should get you pretty close.
> 
> 5000iu of vitamin E every day as well.


Thanks buddy - I will get to it right away


----------



## motownrecovery

Thanks hackskii. What does test 3.8 equal ....just below the 3.9 expected. What does that convert to in standard measure?

*
And.can the.clomid and.vitamin protocol maybe result in sustained higher test levels even after tapering it off...or is this just a temp.boost?* Has this.clomid late boot ever lasted after quitting? Hoping so. I'm assuming my five day clomid 100 run that i quit was.too.short to result in morning woods etc....

Thanks so much @hackskii


----------



## hackskii

motownrecovery said:


> Thanks hackskii. What does test 3.8 equal ....just below the 3.9 expected. What does that convert to in standard measure?
> 
> *
> And.can the.clomid and.vitamin protocol maybe result in sustained higher test levels even after tapering it off...or is this just a temp.boost?* Has this.clomid late boot ever lasted after quitting? Hoping so. I'm assuming my five day clomid 100 run that i quit was.too.short to result in morning woods etc....
> 
> Thanks so much @hackskii


Correct, too quick, if you ran it longer, then even tapered it down some, your numbers would stay higher, and even weeks above top of range.


----------



## motownrecovery

Ok probably. Last question for.now. if.I.thought.my balls were almost normal.size but.maybe 5-10% smaller then they were prior to that old deca cycle....would.I.benefit.at.all.from just one or..two subq 2000iu blasts of.hcg before clomid just to be sure in case theyre not.actually.fully activated or full.size? Or.would.clomid.maybe bring them.to.size.as.well....prob not right?

And final.question...so theoretically I.could.go.from 290 to.high level on clomid...then after I.taper.off its.possible.for it.to*.permanently* stay at some higher level like 400 or more without continuing.clomid? That.would.be amazing. And how.long would i.need to wait.post.clomid finish to do blood.test?Thanks.for.explaining to.a.newb. @hackskii


----------



## hackskii

motownrecovery said:


> Ok probably. Last question for.now. if.I.thought.my balls were almost normal.size but.maybe 5-10% smaller then they were prior to that old deca cycle....would.I.benefit.at.all.from just one or..two subq 2000iu blasts of.hcg before clomid just to be sure in case theyre not.actually.fully activated or full.size? Or.would.clomid.maybe bring them.to.size.as.well....prob not right?


Remember I said that the leydig cells that produce testosterone only comprise about 10% of the total mass of the testicles?

Testicular size has nothing to do with testosterone production.

Clomid will do what you want to do.



motownrecovery said:


> And final.question...so theoretically I.could.go.from 290 to.high level on clomid...then after I.taper.off its.possible.for it.to*.permanently* stay at some higher level like 400 or more without continuing.clomid? That.would.be amazing. And how.long would i.need to wait.post.clomid finish to do blood.test?Thanks.for.explaining to.a.newb. @hackskii


It will only go as high as it did when you were natty, it will go higher on clomid but once stopped not higher than normal.

Everything should go back to normal, unless you have some other underlying medical issue.


----------



## motownrecovery

Ok great..I'm guessing.I've been.stuck.around 290 for.these four years since that deca cycle 4-5 yrs ago since I never pcted ever. 290 is.not my natural tt level before deca.

So I will.forget hcg like u.said....and.hope this *clomid protocol permanently returns.me to near my natural tt levels from four years ago prior to the deca I.have that right? And.it's possible?* Ty @hackskii...for bein patient explaining.


----------



## hackskii

motownrecovery said:


> Ok great..I'm guessing.I've been.stuck.around 290 for.these four years since that deca cycle 4-5 yrs ago since I never pcted ever. 290 is.not my natural tt level before deca.
> 
> So I will.forget hcg like u.said....and.hope this *clomid protocol permanently returns.me to near my natural tt levels from four years ago prior to the deca I.have that right? And.it's possible?* Ty @hackskii...for bein patient explaining.


That is correct, clomid will do what you want, it will spike both LH, and FSH will bump up testosterone levels, and give you some nice ejaculate volume as well, look for doubling the amount of semen.


----------



## motownrecovery

Ty @hackskii. has this actually worked as a permament restoration back to normal.levels on people you know.of.in my long term.no.pct predicament? Would b awesome if.so

Hopimg boosts energy and.libido.too.

How long after.I'm.done.clomid can I get.blood tested? How long do I wait? Thanks.brother. those are the last two questioms. Youre awesome


----------



## hackskii

motownrecovery said:


> Ty @hackskii. has this actually worked as a permament restoration back to normal.levels on people you know.of.in my long term.no.pct predicament? Would b awesome if.so
> 
> How long after.I'm.done.clomid can I get.blood tested? How long do I wait? Thanks.brother. those are the last two questioms. Youre awesome


6 weeks ideally would be the wait time for all of the SERMS metabolites to leave and not skew a test.


----------



## motownrecovery

Ok great will wait six weeks......

What about the first question there man in my last post...before the clomid blood test question..very curious to know @hackskii


----------



## hackskii

Well, permanent in relation to those that don't quite recover after a cycle, but in my mind 4 years time one should recover.

If not, then you would have a record as the longest I ever heard was just over a year, and a year from my brother that did a 13 week deca cycle at 600mg per week, he took a year.

Remember, there may be some underlying other issue going on.


----------



## MS30

Hey Hacksii, just thought I'd give an update. Morning erections are not quite as hard now, but have been more consistant. I have noticed a substantial increase in their strength if I do not masterbate for one or two days. I'm wondering if T levels are slow on the comeback and just need to give the nads a rest. If that is the case I should have obstained from taking care of business while on pct. Another encouraging fact is that I'm stronger in the gym more than a week after stopping clomid and lr3. Any thoughts on resveritol and or royal jelly? I'm just curious if I should stay cold turkey until bloodwork in November. Thanks again. And good luck to motown, hope to hear good news soon.


----------



## hackskii

Pleasure yourself all you want, no need to curb one of the more fun things in life, it wont make a bit of difference for recovery, just refractory times may be longer that's all.

If you are not allergic to bee products then royal jelly is fine, the resveritol is a good anti-oxidant supplement, with mild AI properties, is fine.

Nothing dramatic there but if you feel better taking that, then do so.


----------



## MS30

Quick question. Is it ok to have a few drinks, or should I avoid it entirely for a while?


----------



## hackskii

MS30 said:


> Quick question. Is it ok to have a few drinks, or should I avoid it entirely for a while?


I don't see a problem with that, in life all things are acceptable within moderation.


----------



## MS30

I have been taking B vitamins and Tyrisine for a while, but I still get puffy nips from time to time and always when I first wake up then back to normal. Kind of like the pic below. Strength is still good in the gym and erection strength is down. I was wondering if it could be estro rebound or just stubborn prolactin levels? I appreciate any feedback. Thanks.


----------



## hackskii

You had surgery?


----------



## MS30

No, that's from a pic online. For some reason my chest starts that way on the left and like 2min later looks like the right.


----------



## MS30

The pic is the closest comparison. My nips will curve down and protrude slightly. Then normal, then like the left pic back a forth throughout the day.


----------



## hackskii

I don't know, it could be many things, all of which probably should not be of worry.


----------



## MS30

I have read similar findings on IGF-1. I am curious as to your thoughts

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0014299989906869


----------



## hackskii

MS30 said:


> I have read similar findings on IGF-1. I am curious as to your thoughts
> 
> http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0014299989906869


Yes, this was speculated many years ago but never proven, hence why I do suggest GH during PCT, but never could prove it other than just speculation.


----------



## MS30

I loved IGF-LR3 more than DES. I'm still feeling the effects of LR3 weeks after final dose. Here's hoping it can deliver.


----------



## MS30

I was also considering the possibility that I might have Tertiary hypogonadism. My total T levels have been good but overall levels are low, def had great results from clomid, but I fear those are fading as well. Should I talk to Doc about GnRH levels as well? Or have my previous numbers indicate that it is unlikely an issue? Thanks. Btw I am getting blood work done in two weeks.


----------



## hackskii

MS30 said:


> I was also considering the possibility that I might have Tertiary hypogonadism. My total T levels have been good but overall levels are low, def had great results from clomid, but I fear those are fading as well. Should I talk to Doc about GnRH levels as well? Or have my previous numbers indicate that it is unlikely an issue? Thanks. Btw I am getting blood work done in two weeks.


I cant remember your numbers.


----------



## MS30

FSH 12.8 (1.5-12.4)

Testosterone 624 (249-836)

Free Test 145 (47-244)

Percent free Test 2%

LH 22.7 (1.7-8.6)

Prolactin 14.2 (4-15.2)

Estradiol <5 (8-43)

SHBG 27 (10-80)


----------



## hackskii

MS30 said:


> FSH 12.8 (1.5-12.4)
> 
> Testosterone 624 (249-836)
> 
> Free Test 145 (47-244)
> 
> Percent free Test 2%
> 
> LH 22.7 (1.7-8.6)
> 
> Prolactin 14.2 (4-15.2)
> 
> Estradiol <5 (8-43)
> 
> SHBG 27 (10-80)


Were you taking an AI or something?

Your estrogen is probably a bit low, other than that I see nothing wrong only looks like you have been using something. LH is very high.


----------



## MS30

Remeber, I was on clomiphene 3 months and tomaxifene 45 days. It will be a month off both in another two weeks.


----------



## MS30

Old readings are as follows. 7/2/13

ESTRONE (E1)

ESTRADIOL (E2) 8.8 (4.6-42.6)

ESTROGENES 36 (40-115)

DHEA 188 (31-701)

Testosterone 172 (348-1097)

SBHG 14.6 (16.5 -55.9)


----------



## MS30

Any thoughts? Thanks.


----------



## MS30

* No sarcasm.


----------



## hackskii

I think you are fine.


----------



## MS30

Thanks. I will ask doc for full workup nonetheless. I didn't think to ask about gnrh level.


----------



## hackskii

MS30 said:


> Thanks. I will ask doc for full workup nonetheless. I didn't think to ask about gnrh level.


But, GnRH must be in range otherwise your LH, and FSH would be low, and the GnRH stimulation test wont show much more than the LHRH, and FSH anyway.

I think if all things are within range, you need to stop looking to find something, if you keep turning over rocks to find something you may, but it may be in your head as well.

I would stop fixating on something that may not be happening and just realize things are where they are at right now and will improve later.


----------



## MS30

I saw this post while researching Royal Jelly, and thought of Hacksii. Note the Vitamin D dose.

My testosterone went way up with Royal Jelly. way up

Here is the study that caused me to begin this journey:bit-of-royal-jelly-increases-testosterone-by-20-percenton ergo-log dot com.Ok, I added Royal Jelly to my regime, testing for testosterone before and after one month apart. I didn't expect such a rise, I was hoping for more like 20%, not 50%.Below is the pertinant info including which supplement. I only took one Royal Jelly capsule in my dinner meal.November 13, 2012 blood test for testosterone:Test Name In Range Out Of Range Reference Range LabTESTOSTERONE, FREE AND SLITOTAL, LC/MS/MSTESTOSTERONE, TOTAL,LC/MS/MS 976 250-1100 ng/dLFREE TESTOSTERONE 43.6 35.0-155.0 pg/mL==========================================December 14, 2012TESTOSTERONE, FREE AND SLITOTAL, LC/MS/MSTESTOSTERONE, TOTAL,LC/MS/MS 1479 H 250-1100 ng/dLFREE TESTOSTERONE 83.3 35.0-155.0 pg/mL==============================================I am 62 years old and definitely taking other boosters: vitamin D and D-Aspartic Acid.Tons of protein, BCAAs, EAAs.But. . . .I kept all these variables consistent throughout the month I was taking the Royal Jelly.I honestly made an effort to maintain the same supplement regime as the month before the test.Probably less bacon and eggs is the only thing.I take less than 1/2 teaspoon of D-Aspartic Acid with all 3 meals.I take less than 3/4 teaspoon L-Arginine/L-Orthanine with all 3 meals.I take 12,000 IUs of Vitamin D, 10,000 with breakfast, 1,000 lunch and dinnerI think that is all the specific testosterone boosters.*I kept this all consistent throughout my testing.========================Here is what I bought for 3 bottles which cost $18.97 plus shipping.Now Foods Royal Jelly 300mg, Soft-gels, 100-Count*If you look on the bottle it says "300mg per serving. Serving size: 2 capsules"So, that was 150mg capsule with dinner every night.=========================================Now, I am no doctor, I don't recommend any of this.But if you are messing with your testosterone you should be getting blood tests to see the results.So you can poo poo my "science" and maybe offer me some insites, but I am thrilled at my level and honestly sharing all the facts I can about it.I worry that it might be too high.I am willing to answer any questions concerning my self-study.Royal Jelly is just the honey that queen bees eat. I'm thinking, right?So it's not that caustic a substance. I'm hoping.=======================================Can't tell if it affected my libido much.However, just to be honest, I am fantasizing about 3 sheep at a time now instead of the usual 1. . .


----------



## hackskii

Hmm, well one thing with royal jelly is if you are allergic to bees, which I am, then it is not recommended.

I have tried the pollen, royal jelly, and bee propolis as well and the royal jelly the minute I take it my stomach instantly turns on me.

I could not figure this out but then realized that I am allergic to bee stings so that made sense.


----------



## MS30

I have noticed that I have a lot more gas recently, but I'm not sure if it's that or the N -acetylcysteine l-tyrosine. I was just marveling at the 12k iu of vitamin D. I'm not sure if it would be possible to take a high dose like that for very long.


----------



## MS30

hackskii said:


> Hmm, well one thing with royal jelly is if you are allergic to bees, which I am, then it is not recommended.
> 
> I have tried the pollen, royal jelly, and bee propolis as well and the royal jelly the minute I take it my stomach instantly turns on me.
> 
> I could not figure this out but then realized that I am allergic to bee stings so that made sense.


Just found out I might have sleep apnea. I'm not fat, but another family member has it. It may not be the sole cause of my low T but I'm sure it contributes to it. Even sleeping on my side I still toss and turn lately.


----------



## hackskii

MS30 said:


> Just found out I might have sleep apnea. I'm not fat, but another family member has it. It may not be the sole cause of my low T but I'm sure it contributes to it. Even sleeping on my side I still toss and turn lately.


Sleep apnea is known to lower testosterone levels, in fact it was stated here someplace earlier.


----------



## MS30

hackskii said:


> Sleep apnea is known to lower testosterone levels, in fact it was stated here someplace earlier.


I will try to find the post. Any indication of how much testosterone increased after being treated or effectively cured of sleep apnea? I was thinking that would it be possible that with sleep apnea that my recovery from prohormones was inhibited? Hence the low levels more than 2yrs later?


----------



## hackskii

MS30 said:


> I will try to find the post. Any indication of how much testosterone increased after being treated or effectively cured of sleep apnea? I was thinking that would it be possible that with sleep apnea that my recovery from prohormones was inhibited? Hence the low levels more than 2yrs later?


No, the sleep apnea will show low levels of testosterone in men, and low meaning hypogonadal.


----------



## MS30

hackskii said:


> No, the sleep apnea will show low levels of testosterone in men, and low meaning hypogonadal.


Is there a good chance that levels will return to where they should be despite using pct meds? I just hope that I did not do any damage taking them when it appears that they may not have been necessary? Also, would it help recovery if someone were to go on a pct protocol while being treated for sleep apnea? I did notice that for a time I was sleeping better while on pct. I just realized that this may be why I get better erections on some mornings than others. Thanks.


----------



## hackskii

You should recover just fine.

But get that apnea sorted.


----------



## MS30

hackskii said:


> You should recover just fine.
> 
> But get that apnea sorted.


I got a sleep study scheduled a few weeks from now. Energy level has been going down, the saying "I didn't know how bad I felt until I felt better." I post lab results soon.


----------



## hackskii

MS30 said:


> I got a sleep study scheduled a few weeks from now. Energy level has been going down, the saying "I didn't know how bad I felt until I felt better." I post lab results soon.


Get that apnea sorted, and here is some of the reasons why.

When you stop breathing your heart will beat faster to try and get more oxygen to your body, your red blood cells will go up to try to get more oxygen to the body, GH will spike, but the heart will work very hard.

Over time this creates a whole environment which could include loss of sleep, fatigue, being tired, congestive heart problems, and the list is long.

It will interfere with recovery and even being able to function.


----------



## MS30

hackskii said:


> Get that apnea sorted, and here is some of the reasons why.
> 
> When you stop breathing your heart will beat faster to try and get more oxygen to your body, your red blood cells will go up to try to get more oxygen to the body, GH will spike, but the heart will work very hard.
> 
> Over time this creates a whole environment which could include loss of sleep, fatigue, being tired, congestive heart problems, and the list is long.
> 
> It will interfere with recovery and even being able to function.


Yes, I am well aware of the risks. My father has the same condition, docs are not sure if his obesity caused it or if the sleep apnea contributed to his obesity. In our case it looks like the apnea came first. Even though I'm a lean 220, I inherited my father's turkey neck. Which is where the problem for me lies. I can feel where air is being cut off almost mid way down. 6 weeks was the soonest I could get an appt for a study. Thanks, ttyl. Btw, just found this article

http://jcem.endojournals.org/content/87/7/3394.full


----------



## Mogy

hackskii said:


> He said oxandrolone was suppressive on the HPTA, but Deca and Anadrol were probably the worst in his opinion. I asked him about tren but he had no knowledge as he never used it.
> 
> He did mention that test in itself was not all that suppressive and he has seen guys on 18 months that came off and made a full recovery in 45 days with the above protocol.


Could you clarify something for me Hacks, I'm about to do a first time cycle of Anavar, I know it's suppressive and is going to shut down my test production. However I've been advised that the standard PCT of nolva with clomid is enough to get me functioning properly again.. In your opinion, is HCG definitively a necessary or will it just help/speed up recovery?


----------



## hackskii

Mogy said:


> Could you clarify something for me Hacks, I'm about to do a first time cycle of Anavar, I know it's suppressive and is going to shut down my test production. However I've been advised that the standard PCT of nolva with clomid is enough to get me functioning properly again.. In your opinion, is HCG definitively a necessary or will it just help/speed up recovery?


Yah, that would be enough, low dose HCG will keep some test in your system so that is not a bad idea for that.


----------



## Paul Era

Hackskii, just got my results back after the 45 days pct then 21 day wait after. In all honesty I still feel pretty awful can you have a look at these and see if anything stands out to you as why. The doc just said im now within normal range but I cant be as I feel pretty low all the time ie. no sex drive, memory issues and low energy : (

Serum Albumin level - 47 g/l (35.0 - 52)

Serum Test Level - 19.0 nmol/l (no range given)

Sex sex hormone binding globulin level - 63 nmol/l (no range given)

Free Test level - 250 pmol/l (no range given)

LH level - 8.4 (no range given)

FSH LEVEL - 4.9 (no range given)

Oestradiol - 81 (46 - 607)

Its really starting to get me down mate so any help or advice from yourself or anyone else would be massively appreciated. I cant go on feeling like this. The doc said I should concern myself with free test level and that my serum test being 19 means im only just below average but everything I have read on internet says free test is important and it seems 250 is v low for a 35 year old man. Thanks in advance for any help P


----------



## hackskii

Paul Era said:


> Hackskii, just got my results back after the 45 days pct then 21 day wait after. In all honesty I still feel pretty awful can you have a look at these and see if anything stands out to you as why. The doc just said im now within normal range but I cant be as I feel pretty low all the time ie. no sex drive, memory issues and low energy : (
> 
> Serum Albumin level - 47 g/l (35.0 - 52)
> 
> Serum Test Level - 19.0 nmol/l (no range given)
> 
> Sex sex hormone binding globulin level - 63 nmol/l (no range given)
> 
> Free Test level - 250 pmol/l (no range given)
> 
> LH level - 8.4 (no range given)
> 
> FSH LEVEL - 4.9 (no range given)
> 
> Oestradiol - 81 (46 - 607)
> 
> Its really starting to get me down mate so any help or advice from yourself or anyone else would be massively appreciated. I cant go on feeling like this. The doc said I should concern myself with free test level and that my serum test being 19 means im only just below average but everything I have read on internet says free test is important and it seems 250 is v low for a 35 year old man. Thanks in advance for any help P


Well, the reference range for free testosterone would be a good start as I dont know the range, and it can change depending on the lab.

also, what time was the test taken?

Are you taking the vitamin D at 5000iu per day?

Were you taking an AI by chance?

Your estrogen looks a tad bit low, that can cause ED issues and mood issues too.


----------



## Paul Era

Thanks for the quick response mate

This blood test was one month after pct end. After pct

I did continue taking 25mg of clomid ed after your advice

And research onlin re but I had to

stop week before blood test as clomid really ****s with

me mentally

Im taking the 5000iu vitamin d daily

Test was at 8.30 am

Having looked back at all my other test the range was

243 - 571

Yesterday I managed to get a semi hard on and it

Took ages to come and when I did the amount was

Ridiculously small.

Like I said energy levels beyond low and really down

But what is really worrying me is the brain fog. I have

Really been struggling in work and keep forgetting

Words. Im in a bit of a state in all honesty and my doc

Is totally resistant against helping me. Starting to think I

Might go on to TRT just to get my life back


----------



## hackskii

Well, free test is at the bottom of range, but you could use clomid at 25mg EOD, or even 3 times a week, the dose is low enough not to warrant sides, yet subtle enough to bump natty T levels up some, and some studies suggest more free T with this approach as well.

But you will recover naturally, and with the erections puts you low end, but just try to relax, it will all come back.


----------



## Paul Era

hackskii said:


> Well, free test is at the bottom of range, but you could use clomid at 25mg EOD, or even 3 times a week, the dose is low enough not to warrant sides, yet subtle enough to bump natty T levels up some, and some studies suggest more free T with this approach as well.
> 
> But you will recover naturally, and with the erections puts you low end, but just try to relax, it will all come back.


Thanks Hackskii. The situation is im getting married in 5

Weeks so I may go trt route and come back to this after. I

need to start feeling some kind of normal in next few weeks.

Probably not the most sensible option I know

Have u got an e mail address you could message to me?

I dont mind paying for your time/consulting I really need a

Mentor and you seem to have endless knowledge


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## hackskii

[email protected]


----------



## MS30

Quote Originally Posted by MS30 View Post

Hi Hacksii! Recently went to Doc, and was not at all thrilled with protocol. I am dropping to 12.5mg EOD next week unless you think I should stop sooner. Still doing 50mg EOD and 20mg nolva ED. LH super high 22 with 8 as max. Here are the results.

FSH 12.8 (1.5-12.4)

Testosterone 624 (249-836)

Free Test 145 (47-244)

Percent free Test 2%

LH 22.7 (1.7-8.6)

Prolactin 14.2 (4-15.2)

Estradiol <5 (8-43)

SHBG 27 (10-80)

Recently did a follow up blood work with updated numbers soon to follow. Doc was concerned that LH was high enough to cause some burnout, but I'm not too concerned about that since there have been higher numbers that you have mentioned. Doc has referred me to an endo, but I would prefer to see what sleep study has to say first, I feel that endo will say the same. I will post new info as soon as I get it.

I'm just curious if the urologist is confusing high LH produced by clomid and nolva with HCG? I didn't want to get too into detail since the doc seemed alarmist and not very familiar with SERMS as a TRT alternative. I was also wondering at what levels would overload pituitary or the hypothalymus? On a more positive note, I have been getting more erections and libido improvement. I'm not sure if it is due to progressing serm recovery or if it's due to taking Tongkat Ali and Royal Jelly. Thanks


----------



## MS30

hackskii said:


> [email protected]


Just got results back. I was not given all of the test results.

Total Test 192 (249-836)

Free test 54 (47-244)

Fsh 3.6 (1.5-12.4)

Lh 4.5 (1.7-8.6)

I'm hoping that treating sleep apnea will fix this.


----------



## hackskii

MS30 said:


> Just got results back. I was not given all of the test results.
> 
> Total Test 192 (249-836)
> 
> Free test 54 (47-244)
> 
> Fsh 3.6 (1.5-12.4)
> 
> Lh 4.5 (1.7-8.6)
> 
> I'm hoping that treating sleep apnea will fix this.


Treat the sleep apnea and you will move those numbers up, and feel much better.


----------



## MS30

hackskii said:


> Treat the sleep apnea and you will move those numbers up, and feel much better.


Thanks. Do you think that they will get back up to 600 ish? Just to put to rest any doubts I was curious if any desensitization may have ocurred. It is my understanding that it only occurs with synthetic LH. I hope Endo is better informed, this doc thinks that the low T levels are due to SERMS but I told nurse that they were low before. My lowest was 172, and would they vary between 230 and 190 depending on how well I slept? So far I cant find any before and after sleep apnea T level stories. Thanks again.


----------



## hackskii

Well, just took 10 seconds to find this

Decreased Testosterone Levels Linked To Sleep Disorder

July 25, 2002

Sleep apnea is a respiratory disorder that affects 4%-9% of adult males. Its most common manifestation is loud snoring and it may occur several hundred times throughout the night, resulting in sleep fragmentation and excessive daytime sleepiness. The current study, reported in the July issue of The Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism, found that nearly half the subjects who suffered from severe sleep apnea also secreted abnormally low levels of testosterone throughout the night.

HAIFA, ISRAEL and NEW YORK, NY, July 25, 2002-Male patients who suffer from obstructive sleep apnea (OSA) -- the inability to breathe properly during sleep -- produce lower levels of testosterone, resulting in decreased libido and sexual activity, according to researchers at the Technion-Israel Institute of Technology. Previous studies had indicated that male sleep apnea patients had reported decreased libidos but the studies were unable to establish a scientific link. The current study, reported in the July issue of The Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism, found that nearly half the subjects who suffered from severe sleep apnea also secreted abnormally low levels of testosterone throughout the night.

"For years we have seen sleep-disorder patients complain of decreased libido but we had no explanation for this phenomenon until now," said Professor Peretz Lavie, head of the Technion Sleep Laboratory and study leader.

Sleep apnea is a respiratory disorder that affects 4%-9% of adult males. Its most common manifestation is loud snoring and it may occur several hundred times throughout the night, resulting in sleep fragmentation and excessive daytime sleepiness. For many years sleep apnea sufferers have complained of decreased libidos, yet previous studies reported that patients' testosterone levels, although low, were within the normal adult male range.

The current study adopted a different methodology. Earlier studies had only measured participants' testosterone levels once after awakening. In this study, subjects were admitted to the Technion Sleep Center for an entire night and were fitted with electrodes and catheters. They were monitored between 7 p.m. and 7 a.m. with blood samples collected every 20 minutes. At 10 p.m., lights were turned off and the participants retired to sleep. Two groups -- one of sleep apnea patients and another of normal controls of similar body weight and age -- were investigated.

The study found that nearly half the sleep apnea patients secreted abnormally low testosterone levels throughout the night.

"Should follow-up studies confirm these findings, then therapeutic intervention of sleep apnea could become a recommended remedy for certain forms of male sexual dysfunction," said Prof. Rephael Lubo****zky, an endocrinologist on the research team. "It is our hope that in the future, by correcting nighttime breathing patterns we will be able to stimulate hormone production and thereby raise libidos."

The Technion-Israel Institute of Technology is Israel's leading scientific and technological center for applied research and education. It commands a worldwide reputation for its pioneering work in computer science, biotechnology, water-resource management, materials engineering, aerospace and medicine. The majority of the founders and managers of Israel's high-tech companies are alumni.

Based in New York City, the American Technion Society is the leading American organization supporting higher education in Israel with more than 20,000 supporters and 17 offices around the country.


----------



## MS30

hackskii said:


> Well, just took 10 seconds to find this
> 
> Decreased Testosterone Levels Linked To Sleep Disorder
> 
> July 25, 2002
> 
> Sleep apnea is a respiratory disorder that affects 4%-9% of adult males. Its most common manifestation is loud snoring and it may occur several hundred times throughout the night, resulting in sleep fragmentation and excessive daytime sleepiness. The current study, reported in the July issue of The Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism, found that nearly half the subjects who suffered from severe sleep apnea also secreted abnormally low levels of testosterone throughout the night.
> 
> HAIFA, ISRAEL and NEW YORK, NY, July 25, 2002-Male patients who suffer from obstructive sleep apnea (OSA) -- the inability to breathe properly during sleep -- produce lower levels of testosterone, resulting in decreased libido and sexual activity, according to researchers at the Technion-Israel Institute of Technology. Previous studies had indicated that male sleep apnea patients had reported decreased libidos but the studies were unable to establish a scientific link. The current study, reported in the July issue of The Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism, found that nearly half the subjects who suffered from severe sleep apnea also secreted abnormally low levels of testosterone throughout the night.
> 
> "For years we have seen sleep-disorder patients complain of decreased libido but we had no explanation for this phenomenon until now," said Professor Peretz Lavie, head of the Technion Sleep Laboratory and study leader.
> 
> Sleep apnea is a respiratory disorder that affects 4%-9% of adult males. Its most common manifestation is loud snoring and it may occur several hundred times throughout the night, resulting in sleep fragmentation and excessive daytime sleepiness. For many years sleep apnea sufferers have complained of decreased libidos, yet previous studies reported that patients' testosterone levels, although low, were within the normal adult male range.
> 
> The current study adopted a different methodology. Earlier studies had only measured participants' testosterone levels once after awakening. In this study, subjects were admitted to the Technion Sleep Center for an entire night and were fitted with electrodes and catheters. They were monitored between 7 p.m. and 7 a.m. with blood samples collected every 20 minutes. At 10 p.m., lights were turned off and the participants retired to sleep. Two groups -- one of sleep apnea patients and another of normal controls of similar body weight and age -- were investigated.
> 
> The study found that nearly half the sleep apnea patients secreted abnormally low testosterone levels throughout the night.
> 
> "Should follow-up studies confirm these findings, then therapeutic intervention of sleep apnea could become a recommended remedy for certain forms of male sexual dysfunction," said Prof. Rephael Lubo****zky, an endocrinologist on the research team. "It is our hope that in the future, by correcting nighttime breathing patterns we will be able to stimulate hormone production and thereby raise libidos."
> 
> The Technion-Israel Institute of Technology is Israel's leading scientific and technological center for applied research and education. It commands a worldwide reputation for its pioneering work in computer science, biotechnology, water-resource management, materials engineering, aerospace and medicine. The majority of the founders and managers of Israel's high-tech companies are alumni.
> 
> Based in New York City, the American Technion Society is the leading American organization supporting higher education in Israel with more than 20,000 supporters and 17 offices around the country.


Thanks Hacksii, but I was looking for serum levels before and after. I have found studies and post from sufferers but no actual testosterone numbers.


----------



## MS30

hackskii said:


> Treat the sleep apnea and you will move those numbers up, and feel much better.


This is the best post I have come across.

http://www.apneasupport.org/about17589.html


----------



## MS30

MS30 said:


> This is the best post I have come across.
> 
> http://www.apneasupport.org/about17589.html





hackskii said:


> Treat the sleep apnea and you will move those numbers up, and feel much better.


Just got updated results, no range for cortisol, but it has to be high.

Test 192 (249-836)

Free Test 54 (47-244)

FSH 3.6 (1.5-12.4)

LH 4.5 (1.7-8.6)

Cortisol 18.2

Prolactin 14.2 (4-15.2)

Estridol 5 (8-43)


----------



## hackskii

MS30 said:


> Just got updated results, no range for cortisol, but it has to be high.
> 
> Test 192 (249-836)
> 
> Free Test 54 (47-244)
> 
> FSH 3.6 (1.5-12.4)
> 
> LH 4.5 (1.7-8.6)
> 
> Cortisol 18.2
> 
> Prolactin 14.2 (4-15.2)
> 
> Estridol 5 (8-43)


Well, your E is down because your T is down, and prolactin is a bit up, but in range.

Looks like the nuts are not firing on all cylinders.


----------



## MS30

Could it be soley due to sleep apnoea? Or might I need another round of serms after treatment? Just started dhea 25mg. Any other ideas in the meantime?


----------



## MS30

hackskii said:


> Well, your E is down because your T is down, and prolactin is a bit up, but in range.
> 
> Looks like the nuts are not firing on all cylinders.


See last post. Would some DIM help for E levels?


----------



## hackskii

MS30 said:


> Could it be soley due to sleep apnoea? Or might I need another round of serms after treatment? Just started dhea 25mg. Any other ideas in the meantime?


Well, till you fix the apnea, you probably wont be feeling that great, it puts a terrible load on the heart.

What happens is you lose oxygen, so the heart speeds up to try to keep oxygen in the system, also red blood cells, and I think a GH spike too, but it is super hard on the heart, not something I would want years neglecting.

I had a friend that had this, he ended up with congestive heart failure, he retained tons of water, which made it harder on the heart, high blood pressure, etc.


----------



## hackskii

MS30 said:


> See last post. Would some DIM help for E levels?


No, they are already low.


----------



## MS30

hackskii said:


> No, they are already low.


Sleep apnoea is known to get progressively worse, which is why I did not notice it at first. I also know of a neighbor that died from it.


----------



## MS30

hackskii said:


> No, they are already low.


Is it normal for T levels to drop really low after pct? Just had another night of waking up after 6 hours and not being able to get back to sleep, and earlier that night felt like I was about to pass out.

I was also wondering by looking at my 624 test level that was taken close to noon if that rules out possible testicular damage from prohormones?


----------



## hackskii

MS30 said:


> Is it normal for T levels to drop really low after pct? Just had another night of waking up after 6 hours and not being able to get back to sleep, and earlier that night felt like I was about to pass out.
> 
> I was also wondering by looking at my 624 test level that was taken close to noon if that rules out possible testicular damage from prohormones?


First question yes, some, but all will return back to normal.

Second one, nah, you will be fine, I did many cycles from in my 20's, and in my 40's and I have no issues with hypogonadism at all.

Libido is still healthy too which is kind of surprising some.


----------



## MS30

hackskii said:


> First question yes, some, but all will return back to normal.
> 
> Second one, nah, you will be fine, I did many cycles from in my 20's, and in my 40's and I have no issues with hypogonadism at all.
> 
> Libido is still healthy too which is kind of surprising some.


Thanks Hacksii. I would pose less questions but docs have not been helpful thus far. And it is hard to find solid info on multiple cycles on different prohormones and their effects. Feeling better today after restarting DHEA 25mg twice a day. My level was around 230 vs 170-190 off of it. According to what I have found so far is that T levels will go up with CPAP machine but may not be the 300% increase I would need, so I am thinking another round of clomiphene or toremifene might be needed with CPAP. I am going to order some ghrp to help with sleep and workouts.


----------



## hackskii

MS30 said:


> Thanks Hacksii. I would pose less questions but docs have not been helpful thus far. And it is hard to find solid info on multiple cycles on different prohormones and their effects. Feeling better today after restarting DHEA 25mg twice a day. My level was around 230 vs 170-190 off of it. According to what I have found so far is that T levels will go up with CPAP machine but may not be the 300% increase I would need, so I am thinking another round of clomiphene or toremifene might be needed with CPAP. I am going to order some ghrp to help with sleep and workouts.


Read up on boron, and testosterone, just for giggles, that was the old time bodybuilders thing for test boosting.


----------



## MS30

hackskii said:


> Read up on boron, and testosterone, just for giggles, that was the old time bodybuilders thing for test boosting.


Thanks for the Boron tip. I just got some a few days ago. I wanted to mention something that I just remembered. In July of 2010 must have been my last dose of prohormones since I recall running track to get in shape for a job, and taking a lose dose of ephedra earlier that day. On one of the lapse I felt like I had a headache and a subsequent nosebleed later on, didn't call doc since I had did not have any speech, visual, limb movement problems. This feeling of brain fog and substantial vertigo continued for a few days, scheduled a CAT scan with doc and in the meantime I went to see an acupuncturist. Two days after I went to the acupuncturist I felt like a huge amount of head pressure had been relieved and after a few more treatments and about two weeks later the vertigo was gone. I just thought of this because my latest sensation of nearly passing out reminded me of this. I think that it is odd that testosterone levels would crash so quickly, the last few days I have not been able to sleep more than 6 hours, last night with some ghrp I was able to sleep for a total of 12. Good energy level today as well but now it is starting to wane. I have also had hot flashes in the past, I did not think much about it at the time since I did not once consider it could be low Testosterone. If feelings persist should I use small doses of clomid say 12.5-25mg daily until sleep study? Please share your thoughts. Thank you very much.


----------



## hackskii

MS30 said:


> Thanks for the Boron tip. I just got some a few days ago. I wanted to mention something that I just remembered. In July of 2010 must have been my last dose of prohormones since I recall running track to get in shape for a job, and taking a lose dose of ephedra earlier that day. On one of the lapse I felt like I had a headache and a subsequent nosebleed later on, didn't call doc since I had did not have any speech, visual, limb movement problems. This feeling of brain fog and substantial vertigo continued for a few days, scheduled a CAT scan with doc and in the meantime I went to see an acupuncturist. Two days after I went to the acupuncturist I felt like a huge amount of head pressure had been relieved and after a few more treatments and about two weeks later the vertigo was gone. I just thought of this because my latest sensation of nearly passing out reminded me of this. I think that it is odd that testosterone levels would crash so quickly, the last few days I have not been able to sleep more than 6 hours, last night with some ghrp I was able to sleep for a total of 12. Good energy level today as well but now it is starting to wane. I have also had hot flashes in the past, I did not think much about it at the time since I did not once consider it could be low Testosterone. If feelings persist should I use small doses of clomid say 12.5-25mg daily until sleep study? Please share your thoughts. Thank you very much.


Well, the nosebleed and headache probably was due to high blood pressure, that is pretty common on gear, moreso depending on which one.

Low dose wont hurt you clomid, you can see how you feel on that.


----------



## MS30

hackskii said:


> Well, the nosebleed and headache probably was due to high blood pressure, that is pretty common on gear, moreso depending on which one.
> 
> Low dose wont hurt you clomid, you can see how you feel on that.


Thanks. I slept pretty well last night, but I still feel a tad of vertigo. My only possible concern is that clomid may affect sleep study but I do not think it would affect it that much. Speaking of which, should I cut the ghrp a few days before the test since it appears to improve my sleep? I cant seem to find any data on ghrp and sleep apnea. I did find an article saying that Delta Inducing Sleep Peptide had little affect on the condition. Thanks again. I think I will do 12.5mg EOD of clomid and see how that works.


----------



## DutchTony

hackskii said:


> I talked to the doc today on the phone and he answered many questions for me in regards to recovery of the HPTA.
> 
> For those of you who don't know what that is it is "Hypothalamus Pituitary Testicular Axis"
> 
> After administration of AAS, you have shutdown of the HPTA. Depending on the meds taken shutdown can be severe and much does depend on the person as well.
> 
> This is the protocol the doc said he used in literally thousands of users with suppressed HPTA.
> 
> First thing, the 500iu a day was not enough to make the testicles do their job, he suggested this was just a waste of time and money.
> 
> He suggests 8 shots of HCG @ 2500iu EOD.
> 
> With this you take 20 mg of nolvadex for 45 days.
> 
> Clomid is also taken but twice a day @ 50mg each dose 12 hours apart.
> 
> The reason for the amounts of HCG (which is the most important part, if the balls don't fire everything else is worthless), is based on his determination to bring the balls back to life, too little wont accomplish this, too much risks damage to the Leydig cells.
> 
> So he basically was saying that you do the HCG and around day 10 of the above protocol, you should get a blood test for testosterone. If it is above 400 or greater then this says the balls will be just fine once you get off the HCG and the Clomid and nolva take over. This will accept the LH that you are putting out to maintain testicular function.
> 
> He used the term like jumping a car. Your battery (Pituitary gland) if low wont start your car (your testicles), if you use another car and jumper cables (HCG) once the car starts your battery (HP part of the HPTA) will keep your car running.
> 
> The clomid by itself he suggested can inhibit either the pituitary or the hypothalamus (can't remember which one) but if taken with nolva this blocks the estrogen receptors so you wont inhibit that.
> 
> So clomid in his protocol is always taken with nolvadex ALWAYS.
> 
> He did mention that sometimes the balls just don't take and then you do the protocol again. He said it was rare that he could not fire up the HPTA.
> 
> He said that beings that I have good size difference (balls), feel good, strength gains, and a greasy face he felt I should have no problems with returning the HPTA.
> 
> Some things he said was tribulis was actually inhibitory on the HPTA, great I wish I found that out after I bought two bottles.
> 
> ZMA, he said if it made me feel good then go for it but it is placebo and the HCG, clomid, nolva was it and all that is needed.
> 
> Talked to him about progesterone and he said never take that if you are a man (the last doc prescribed it to me)
> 
> Sorry aftershock, I forgot to ask him about the GH question he was saying so much I was just trying to listen.
> 
> One thing he did mention (in an article) was that HGH actually helped with the testicular recovery with things and adding that to the Protocol is a good idea and productive.
> 
> Avoid aspirin when on HCG as it kind of ruins the effects.
> 
> He said oxandrolone was suppressive on the HPTA, but Deca and Anadrol were probably the worst in his opinion. I asked him about tren but he had no knowledge as he never used it.
> 
> He did mention that test in itself was not all that suppressive and he has seen guys on 18 months that came off and made a full recovery in 45 days with the above protocol.
> 
> He said one of the best ways was 12 weeks of test, followed by the above protocol, then start another 12 weeks followed by the above protocol with a month off after that then start again.
> 
> He did say that desensitization to HCG took around 2 months, and the dose of 2500 was fine and no damage or desensitization would occur if you followed his protocol.
> 
> There it is.


This may be a ridiculous question but would this power pct help with fertility issues?

I'm 36 and have done 4 cycles over the past 2-3 years including an 18 week test and deca cycle. All have been roughly 3-4 months on then 3-4 months off, but I've never used hcg or done a pct (yes I'm a d!ck). Been off cycle since february and my boys don't seem to be working anymore so basically I need all the help I can get.

Also just to make sure I've got it 100% right does it go like this.....

Day 1-15 2500iu hcg eod

Day 1-45 20mg nolva ed

Day 1-45 50mg clomid twice a day

Day 46 - woman pregnant :lol:

Seriously any help is greatly appreciated

Thank you in advance


----------



## hackskii

CapeTownTony said:


> This may be a ridiculous question but would this power pct help with fertility issues?
> 
> I'm 36 and have done 4 cycles over the past 2-3 years including an 18 week test and deca cycle. All have been roughly 3-4 months on then 3-4 months off, but I've never used hcg or done a pct (yes I'm a d!ck). Been off cycle since february and my boys don't seem to be working anymore so basically I need all the help I can get.
> 
> Also just to make sure I've got it 100% right does it go like this.....
> 
> Day 1-15 2500iu hcg eod
> 
> Day 1-45 20mg nolva ed
> 
> Day 1-45 50mg clomid twice a day
> 
> Day 46 - woman pregnant :lol:
> 
> Seriously any help is greatly appreciated
> 
> Thank you in advance


Well, 30 days would be about the longest I would run the clomid.

What are you on right now?

When are you coming off?

We can probably modify things for a better effect.


----------



## DutchTony

hackskii said:


> Well, 30 days would be about the longest I would run the clomid.
> 
> What are you on right now?
> 
> When are you coming off?
> 
> We can probably modify things for a better effect.


I've been off everything since february but started another test and deca cycle a week ago. I'm thinking maybe I should just stop completely and try the power pct, or could I carry on and just jump on the hcg immediately?


----------



## hackskii

Jump on the HCG now, you can run the nolva at 20mg per day, and hit the HCG every 3 to 4 days at 1000iu or even more, then after you have around 20,000iu down you, you may have some testicular function.

Ideally perhaps some HMG may be of consideration, along with the HCG.


----------



## DutchTony

hackskii said:


> Jump on the HCG now, you can run the nolva at 20mg per day, and hit the HCG every 3 to 4 days at 1000iu or even more, then after you have around 20,000iu down you, you may have some testicular function.
> 
> Ideally perhaps some HMG may be of consideration, along with the HCG.


Ok great I'm gonna get right on this. Shall I stop the test and deca cycle or carry on but use nolva and hcg alongside it? Also is it worth me using 2500iu every 3 or 4 days rather than 1000iu?


----------



## hackskii

CapeTownTony said:


> Ok great I'm gonna get right on this. Shall I stop the test and deca cycle or carry on but use nolva and hcg alongside it? Also is it worth me using 2500iu every 3 or 4 days rather than 1000iu?


I would myself drop the deca for sure, testosterone can be lowered as well to doses that would moreso mimic natty levels.

It will take some time for the nuts to come alive.


----------



## DutchTony

hackskii said:


> I would myself drop the deca for sure, testosterone can be lowered as well to doses that would moreso mimic natty levels.
> 
> It will take some time for the nuts to come alive.


Thank you very much mate

I'll also look into HMG as I've never heard of it.


----------



## Deadcalm

With this protocol (the one mentioned in the original post of this thread) would HMG alongside HCG be beneficial at all for recovery? Perhaps 3 x 75iu shots during the last week of higher HCG shots during the PCT?


----------



## hackskii

Deadcalm said:


> With this protocol (the one mentioned in the original post of this thread) would HMG alongside HCG be beneficial at all for recovery? Perhaps 3 x 75iu shots during the last week of higher HCG shots during the PCT?


Absolutely, FSH supports leydig cells, in fact, those that are so stubborn probably should look into this, and if fertility is an issue, even moreso.


----------



## Deadcalm

hackskii said:


> Absolutely, FSH supports leydig cells, in fact, those that are so stubborn probably should look into this, and if fertility is an issue, even moreso.


The only thing I've heard is that HMG is basically a mixture of actual LH and FSH, whereas HCG just mimics one of them. Is it therefore possible that HMG may suppress LH and FSH during the PCT protocol mentioned in this thread?

If so, would it be best taking the HMG before the clomid/nolva/HCG therapy just alongside the HCG running up to the clomid and nolva?

This PCT sounds powerful so it almost feels like a case of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" but if there's a way to use HMG to assist recovery without the risk of hampering it then I'd like to try it - especially as I am concerned about fertility.


----------



## hackskii

Yes, it gets use in conjunction with HCG.

For those that cant really seem to recover, HMG is added.


----------



## Rise-N-Fall

Hey hax, what would your suggestions be on Andropen 275 alone with only taking 1/2ml twice a week for 5 weeks be? Just looking for a little boost, I'm 30 hrs old, 5'9" 175 lbs. What would you PCT suggestion be on that cycle too?


----------



## hackskii

I would shoot that on one go, no need to split that up, just take 100mg of clomid for 3 weeks 2 weeks from last jab.

It does have that long ester in there though.


----------



## Rise-N-Fall

You dont think I would need to combine with Nolvadex? Is HCG more for constant cycles, not so much as a small first cycle?


----------



## hackskii

Rise-N-Fall said:


> You dont think I would need to combine with Nolvadex? Is HCG more for constant cycles, not so much as a small first cycle?


Well, the degree of testicular atrophy is far less with short cycles, so probably not.


----------



## Rise-N-Fall

Thanks for all the help and great posts. I learned so much from them. Just in case the clomid doesn't work as well as expected could I start HCG like a month late or is that not good?


----------



## hackskii

Rise-N-Fall said:


> Thanks for all the help and great posts. I learned so much from them. Just in case the clomid doesn't work as well as expected could I start HCG like a month late or is that not good?


Well, HCG will kind of hammer down LH, so then you will have to start the process all over again.

If you wanted to add in a few shots during, all your problems will be sorted.


----------



## Deadcalm

hackskii said:


> Well, HCG will kind of hammer down LH, so then you will have to start the process all over again.
> 
> If you wanted to add in a few shots during, all your problems will be sorted.


Quick question about this.

I've always thought that HCG shouldn't be used during PCT as it suppresses LH. However, this PCT protocol outlined in this thread has HCG usage alongside the first couple of weeks of clomid and nolva.

Can clomid and nolva still work to some degree to get natural LH and FSH production going even whilst HCG is being administered?


----------



## hackskii

Deadcalm said:


> Quick question about this.
> 
> I've always thought that HCG shouldn't be used during PCT as it suppresses LH. However, this PCT protocol outlined in this thread has HCG usage alongside the first couple of weeks of clomid and nolva.
> 
> Can clomid and nolva still work to some degree to get natural LH and FSH production going even whilst HCG is being administered?


Ok, short answer.

HCG should be used during, this will avoid the use later.

If you have not used HCG, and you are shut down, then you really have no choice here, with the direct stimulation of HCG and a big one at that, the nuts will recover much faster, if not, months, maybe even a year.

Remember the pituitary will take a little time coming back, with no testicular stimulation you still are not only shut down, but risk even more atrophy.

Once the pituitary is normal, the balls are still not producing.

The HCG is kind of like jumper cables for your nuts, it forces then to go to work, and right now.


----------



## Deadcalm

hackskii said:


> Ok, short answer.
> 
> HCG should be used during, this will avoid the use later.
> 
> If you have not used HCG, and you are shut down, then you really have no choice here, with the direct stimulation of HCG and a big one at that, the nuts will recover much faster, if not, months, maybe even a year.
> 
> Remember the pituitary will take a little time coming back, with no testicular stimulation you still are not only shut down, but risk even more atrophy.
> 
> Once the pituitary is normal, the balls are still not producing.
> 
> The HCG is kind of like jumper cables for your nuts, it forces then to go to work, and right now.


I understand that yes. What I was referring to was HCG during PCT.

People say that you should use HCG to get the testicles working BEFORE starting PCT (if you haven't used it throughout the cycle), and that you shouldn't use HCG during PCT because it suppresses LH.

However, this protocol advocates using HCG a couple of weeks into the PCT itself alongside the clomid and nolva dose.

So can you keep using HCG a couple of weeks into your PCT and the clomid and nolva will still work to get the pituitary firing LH and FSH whilst HCG is being administered?


----------



## MS30

hackskii said:


> Ok, short answer.
> 
> HCG should be used during, this will avoid the use later.
> 
> If you have not used HCG, and you are shut down, then you really have no choice here, with the direct stimulation of HCG and a big one at that, the nuts will recover much faster, if not, months, maybe even a year.
> 
> Remember the pituitary will take a little time coming back, with no testicular stimulation you still are not only shut down, but risk even more atrophy.
> 
> Once the pituitary is normal, the balls are still not producing.
> 
> The HCG is kind of like jumper cables for your nuts, it forces then to go to work, and right now.


Hey Hacksii. I have been taking clomid 25mg ED for a week now. Energy levels are up along with libido and erections, but for some reason I still feel a tad dizzy if I do not get a ton of sleep. I was just wondering what hormone process is going on to cause this? I am also back at the gym after two weeks of feeling like crap. I had my sleep doc apt postponed until January and seeing Endo in a few weeks. Thank you for your time.


----------



## hackskii

Deadcalm said:


> I understand that yes. What I was referring to was HCG during PCT.
> 
> People say that you should use HCG to get the testicles working BEFORE starting PCT (if you haven't used it throughout the cycle), and that you shouldn't use HCG during PCT because it suppresses LH.
> 
> However, this protocol advocates using HCG a couple of weeks into the PCT itself alongside the clomid and nolva dose.
> 
> So can you keep using HCG a couple of weeks into your PCT and the clomid and nolva will still work to get the pituitary firing LH and FSH whilst HCG is being administered?


Well, lets look at the statement.

The first few weeks of PCT LH aint gonna be there anyway, so if you use HCG or not, no or little activity will be present anyway.

If you have done a fairly long cycle, you WILL need to use HCG, or recovery can take many months.

Use HCG and you are looking at something like 6 weeks, no HCG, 3 to 6 months, HCG 6 weeks.

Not to mention the instant surge of androgens will make you feel much better within days.


----------



## hackskii

MS30 said:


> Hey Hacksii. I have been taking clomid 25mg ED for a week now. Energy levels are up along with libido and erections, but for some reason I still feel a tad dizzy if I do not get a ton of sleep. I was just wondering what hormone process is going on to cause this? I am also back at the gym after two weeks of feeling like crap. I had my sleep doc apt postponed until January and seeing Endo in a few weeks. Thank you for your time.


It will move numbers up, it has been shown to, but with all SERMS, you do run a risk of some sides.


----------



## Rise-N-Fall

Hax, when is the best time to jab? Morning, preworkout, post workout or at the end of the day? Thanks.


----------



## hackskii

Rise-N-Fall said:


> Hax, when is the best time to jab? Morning, preworkout, post workout or at the end of the day? Thanks.


Just before bed, but the spike in T may not allow you to sleep, so if so then hit that in the morning.

First spike is 2 hours, second spike between 24, and 48 hours.


----------



## Rise-N-Fall

Thanks Hax


----------



## MRENIGMA

Starting this protocol today

Fingers crossed

Taken first shot 2500iu Hcg

20mg nolva

50am 50pm clomid


----------



## MS30

hackskii said:


> It will move numbers up, it has been shown to, but with all SERMS, you do run a risk of some sides.


Hi Hacksii. I have been doing well on low dose clomid, my head pressure and dizziness is almost gone and dose not seem to be related to dosing. I think that acupuncture should take care of it. I was wondering though if I can switch over to toremifene now, or if I should ween myself off completely first? I ask since I have been noticing some slight blurriness in vision. Thank you.


----------



## funkdocta

MS30 said:


> Hi Hacksii. I have been doing well on low dose clomid, my head pressure and dizziness is almost gone and dose not seem to be related to dosing. I think that acupuncture should take care of it. I was wondering though if I can switch over to toremifene now, or if I should ween myself off completely first? I ask since I have been noticing some slight blurriness in vision. Thank you.


Just a quick note... Acupuncture does absolutely nothing more than give a placebo effect. You would be better getting yourself tested for diabetes and get your blood pressure checked for dizziness etc.


----------



## MS30

funkdocta said:


> Just a quick note... Acupuncture does absolutely nothing more than give a placebo effect. You would be better getting yourself tested for diabetes and get your blood pressure checked for dizziness etc.


Totally disagree sir. It helped immensely for just that the last time my levels crashed. Great for knee swelling as well.


----------



## Marshan

funkdocta said:


> Just a quick note... Acupuncture does absolutely nothing more than give a placebo effect. You would be better getting yourself tested for diabetes and get your blood pressure checked for dizziness etc.


Fooled by endorphin release maybe?


----------



## Jay Walker

MS30 said:


> Totally disagree sir. It helped immensely for just that the last time my levels crashed. Great for knee swelling as well.


Another advocate for Acupuncture here, as well. Fixed a 2 year tennis elbow injury in about 60 seconds, still cannot believe it.


----------



## funkdocta

MS30 said:


> Totally disagree sir. It helped immensely for just that the last time my levels crashed. Great for knee swelling as well.


Like i said.... placebo.  They could stick them anywhere and you wouldn't know the difference


----------



## funkdocta

Jay Walker said:


> Another advocate for Acupuncture here, as well. Fixed a 2 year tennis elbow injury in about 60 seconds, still cannot believe it.


I definitely don't believe it.  I had it for shin splints, water on the knee, and shoulder injury.... did **** all. Placebo is a very very very powerful thing.


----------



## MS30

funkdocta said:


> Like i said.... placebo.  They could stick them anywhere and you wouldn't know the difference


You can definitely tell the difference depending on the points and the problem. I see it as another aspect of individualized medicine. Many people may have the same problem but require different treatments for it. Just as schizophrenia has thousands of genes in different combinations that cause it, therefore many people will require different gene therapy when it becomes available. Will acupuncture work for everyone, or everything? No. It also depends on the practioner, just like surgeons some are better than others. It may also take a while to find a treatment program that works. BTW, how many of us on these forums have seen poor studies on supplements that many have found helpful?


----------



## Jay Walker

funkdocta said:


> I definitely don't believe it.  I had it for shin splints, water on the knee, and shoulder injury.... did **** all. Placebo is a very very very powerful thing.


Each to their own, I'd tried everything, worked for me. Nothing placebo about it, had pain, now I dont.


----------



## funkdocta

MS30 said:


> You can definitely tell the difference depending on the points and the problem. I see it as another aspect of individualized medicine. Many people may have the same problem but require different treatments for it. Just as schizophrenia has thousands of genes in different combinations that cause it, therefore many people will require different gene therapy when it becomes available. Will acupuncture work for everyone, or everything? No. It also depends on the practioner, just like surgeons some are better than others. It may also take a while to find a treatment program that works. BTW, how many of us on these forums have seen poor studies on supplements that many have found helpful?


Its call the placebo effect.  There is no scientific evidence it works, quite the contrary actually.


----------



## hackskii

Nice hyjacks,,,,lol


----------



## Jay Walker

hackskii said:


> Nice hyjacks,,,,lol


Haha my bad daaawg


----------



## MS30

hackskii said:


> Nice hyjacks,,,,lol


It was a change of pace. Didn't realize that it would cause a derail. I picked up some toremifene that I am thinking I might use depending on how levels are improved using cpap. Still have to wait a few more weeks for test.


----------



## MS30

hackskii said:


> Nice hyjacks,,,,lol


Merry belated Christmas Hacksii. I have been taking clomiphene at 12.5mg everyday, and yesterday my libio has been at its highest in a while. Erections come much more easily, and with ipamorelin I have noticed that when I sleep for 10 or more hours my erections and libido are stronger, which leads me to believe that my gnrh release is too low on its own. I have plans to switch over to toremifene should I need to, just want to confirm that the transition will not be a problem. I have not seen any info on a 300% increase on T levels after being treated for sleep apnea, but many people do not post levels after treatment, and studies do not appear to use people who lift weights on a regular basis. Thank you for your time and input.


----------



## mason42

Hi hackski happy new year to you sir. Need your expert help on a couple of matters.

Ive been trying to get the wife pregnant for 3 years now. Have been blasting

and cruising through my courses, never really came of in 2011 or 2012, came of mid

2013. and done the odd shot of sustanon to keep anxiety and depression away. Waited 5

weeks after last sus 250 shot to clean out the androgens before starting the power pc 2500iu

hcg mon wed fri for two weeks then 10mg of tamox an 50mg of clomid

twice a day and carried taking 10mg tamox after the clomid to stop estrogen rebound.

Still had balls the size of marbles even after the pct :sad:

Lately i havnt had much sex drive at all, no lust, no morning wood so went to doctors and got testosterone

prolactin, lh and fsh tested.

Results as follows

Testosterone satisfactory 21.1 nmoi/l range is 8.4 - 28.70 nmoi/l DID NOT EXPECT THIS considering im alost impotent !!!!

LH levels are 0.1 ul instead of being in the range1.5 - 9.3 ul OOPS !!!!

FHS levels 0.5 ul instead of being in the normal range 1.4 - 18.1 ul OOPS AGAIN

Im 48 now , done a lot of courses over the years, have a teenager and a 5 year old so

have been successfull in baby making before.

What i dont understand is how can my test be above average when my lh and fsh are

virtually non existent, surely i need a higher level of lh and fsh to produce testostorone.

Next step is the fertility test, cant see me having to many tadpoles around with them lh and fsh levels.

Thyroid test was satisfactory and the prolactin results were a little low at 39mu/l range is 45-375mu/l

Any help or advice would be appreciated, wife is 37 and still wants another little one.


----------



## hackskii

mason42 said:


> Hi hackski happy new year to you sir. Need your expert help on a couple of matters.
> 
> Ive been trying to get the wife pregnant for 3 years now. Have been blasting
> 
> and cruising through my courses, never really came of in 2011 or 2012, came of mid
> 
> 2013. and done the odd shot of sustanon to keep anxiety and depression away. Waited 5
> 
> weeks after last sus 250 shot to clean out the androgens before starting the power pc 2500iu
> 
> hcg mon wed fri for two weeks then 10mg of tamox an 50mg of clomid
> 
> twice a day and carried taking 10mg tamox after the clomid to stop estrogen rebound.
> 
> Still had balls the size of marbles even after the pct :sad:
> 
> Lately i havnt had much sex drive at all, no lust, no morning wood so went to doctors and got testosterone
> 
> prolactin, lh and fsh tested.
> 
> Results as follows
> 
> Testosterone satisfactory 21.1 nmoi/l range is 8.4 - 28.70 nmoi/l DID NOT EXPECT THIS considering im alost impotent !!!!
> 
> LH levels are 0.1 ul instead of being in the range1.5 - 9.3 ul OOPS !!!!
> 
> FHS levels 0.5 ul instead of being in the normal range 1.4 - 18.1 ul OOPS AGAIN
> 
> Im 48 now , done a lot of courses over the years, have a teenager and a 5 year old so
> 
> have been successfull in baby making before.
> 
> What i dont understand is how can my test be above average when my lh and fsh are
> 
> virtually non existent, surely i need a higher level of lh and fsh to produce testostorone.
> 
> Next step is the fertility test, cant see me having to many tadpoles around with them lh and fsh levels.
> 
> Thyroid test was satisfactory and the prolactin results were a little low at 39mu/l range is 45-375mu/l
> 
> Any help or advice would be appreciated, wife is 37 and still wants another little one.


Well, your numbers are high for one of two reasons.

1. The gear is not clear from your system.

2. HCG allowed your testicles to product levels within range.

Either one could be the cause, and looking at your LH, and FSH, lets hope it is from the HCG.

You could hop on clomid at 100mg per day for 1 week, then 50mg for another 3 weeks, then half the dose every couple of weeks till you are done.

This will bump both FSH, and LH for fertility.

Take 5000iu vitamin D every day, and for the first week 10,000iu per day then drop to 5000.


----------



## blue0eyes0

hi hackskii, im have had trouble holding onto my gains after cycles, have never done a pct. This time i want to do one. My cycle which will finish soon is 18 weeks of test e at 600-800mg. Im currently taking 1.25mg of letro eod for gyno issues (been using letro 2 weeks) im hoping in 6 weeks time when i do my last jab of test the gyno will be gone/reduced so i can come off the letro and into pct. Ive heard that using tamox after letro for estrogen rebound is wise so i should be covered as i will be using tamox for pct. I was planning to do clomid and nolva, is hcg needed? i dont mind getting it if its needed just dont know how to use it and never liked the though of jabbing sub-q. Im 28 btw. Im also planning to use creatine for the first time in between cycles to try to keep some fullness.

many thanks


----------



## mason42

Thankyou for the reply sir, i was not aware that hcg could decrease the lh and fsh levels that much.

One thing i did,nt mention was that i have been doing 500iu of hcg every week for the last 8 months.

Thinking that would prevent my natural test and fertility hormones from shutting down to much while

continuing with a cruise of sustanon every 2 weeks.

Would you reccomend going back onto the sustanon after doing the 4 weeks of clomid ?

hrt dose of 250mg every 2 weeks.

Would the extra testosterone increase the lh and fsh levels or is that just going to shut me down even

further ?



hackskii said:


> Well, your numbers are high for one of two reasons.
> 
> 1. The gear is not clear from your system.
> 
> 2. HCG allowed your testicles to product levels within range.
> 
> Either one could be the cause, and looking at your LH, and FSH, lets hope it is from the HCG.
> 
> You could hop on clomid at 100mg per day for 1 week, then 50mg for another 3 weeks, then half the dose every couple of weeks till you are done.
> 
> This will bump both FSH, and LH for fertility.
> 
> Take 5000iu vitamin D every day, and for the first week 10,000iu per day then drop to 5000.


----------



## hackskii

blue0eyes0 said:


> hi hackskii, im have had trouble holding onto my gains after cycles, have never done a pct. This time i want to do one. My cycle which will finish soon is 18 weeks of test e at 600-800mg. Im currently taking 1.25mg of letro eod for gyno issues (been using letro 2 weeks) im hoping in 6 weeks time when i do my last jab of test the gyno will be gone/reduced so i can come off the letro and into pct. Ive heard that using tamox after letro for estrogen rebound is wise so i should be covered as i will be using tamox for pct. I was planning to do clomid and nolva, is hcg needed? i dont mind getting it if its needed just dont know how to use it and never liked the though of jabbing sub-q. Im 28 btw. Im also planning to use creatine for the first time in between cycles to try to keep some fullness.
> 
> many thanks


I do feel that HCG would be needed, in fact with that much letro you are running you could actually add it right now and regain testicular function while your gear is clearing.

600mg of test E, to 800mg would probably take a month to clear, and while this is happening you can do 2500iu E3D X 8 shots for the month you are waiting for it all to clear.

This way you will have testicular function prior to starting your SERMS.

That would be a fast recovery.



mason42 said:


> Thankyou for the reply sir, i was not aware that hcg could decrease the lh and fsh levels that much.
> 
> One thing i did,nt mention was that i have been doing 500iu of hcg every week for the last 8 months.
> 
> Thinking that would prevent my natural test and fertility hormones from shutting down to much while
> 
> continuing with a cruise of sustanon every 2 weeks.
> 
> Would you reccomend going back onto the sustanon after doing the 4 weeks of clomid ?
> 
> hrt dose of 250mg every 2 weeks.
> 
> Would the extra testosterone increase the lh and fsh levels or is that just going to shut me down even
> 
> further ?


I thought you wanted to come off for fertility issues?


----------



## mason42

Im struggling with the coming off, depression kicks in within 5 weeks of last test shot.

Dont know if its possible but im hoping to attain hormone levels that will give me the

best of both worlds, no depression with a sex drive, and get the wife pregnant :thumb:


----------



## blue0eyes0

hackskii said:


> I do feel that HCG would be needed, in fact with that much letro you are running you could actually add it right now and regain testicular function while your gear is clearing.
> 
> 600mg of test E, to 800mg would probably take a month to clear, and while this is happening you can do 2500iu E3D X 8 shots for the month you are waiting for it all to clear.
> 
> This way you will have testicular function prior to starting your SERMS.
> 
> That would be a fast recovery.
> 
> sounds good, so i should start my 1st shot of hcg a few days after last shot of test? and after my 8th shot i could go right into 4 weeks of nolva and clomid? i understand this but what is the relevance of the fact im on letro? (excuse my aparent lack of knowledge) letro just lowers my estrogen right?


----------



## hackskii

blue0eyes0 said:


> sounds good, so i should start my 1st shot of hcg a few days after last shot of test? and after my 8th shot i could go right into 4 weeks of nolva and clomid? i understand this but what is the relevance of the fact im on letro? (excuse my aparent lack of knowledge) letro just lowers my estrogen right?


You can shoot the HCG today if you want, the letro will help you to not have estrogenic sides from the big doses of HCG.


----------



## MS30

hackskii said:


> You can shoot the HCG today if you want, the letro will help you to not have estrogenic sides from the big doses of HCG.


Hey Hacksii. I spoke with doc and I will be scheduled for a sleep study in the next few weeks. I have been under a lot of stress today since I lost my job. 12.5mg ED of clomid has helped but I do have some visual side effects, would torem decrease those or be the same?


----------



## hackskii

You are getting vision issues at 12.5mg per day?

That would be unusual, but although I can not say for sure on the tore, probably would not affect like clomid.


----------



## MS30

hackskii said:


> You are getting vision issues at 12.5mg per day?
> 
> That would be unusual, but although I can not say for sure on the tore, probably would not affect like clomid.


The visual sides are on and off, one minute a tad blurry then clear the next. Thanks for the input. I will get back to you as soon as I get tested for apnea.


----------



## blue0eyes0

hackskii said:


> You can shoot the HCG today if you want, the letro will help you to not have estrogenic sides from the big doses of HCG.


would a dose of 2500iu cause leydig desensitisation? could i do 500iu or maybe 1000iu e3d for 10 shots instead? and letro at 1.25g eod would be ok to control the estrogen?

also just so i can learn more can you answer me this...on the peak testosterone website it says nolva has an effect on blocking the pituitary from sensing any estrogen in the body and this in turn stimulates the hypothalamus to send messages to the pituitary to secrete LH. So wouldnt that mean using nolva would keep testes functioning? ive never heard of this and its probably me just misunderstanding something.


----------



## hackskii

blue0eyes0 said:


> would a dose of 2500iu cause leydig desensitisation? could i do 500iu or maybe 1000iu e3d for 10 shots instead? and letro at 1.25g eod would be ok to control the estrogen?
> 
> also just so i can learn more can you answer me this...on the peak testosterone website it says nolva has an effect on blocking the pituitary from sensing any estrogen in the body and this in turn stimulates the hypothalamus to send messages to the pituitary to secrete LH. So wouldnt that mean using nolva would keep testes functioning? ive never heard of this and its probably me just misunderstanding something.


Well SERMS would have more of an effect on having GnRH be more sensitive at the pituitary level, and no, using a SERM to keep LH on cycle wont work.

So, if that site is telling you to run nolva to keep things moving, they sadly are wrong.

Now, some speculation as to clomid and FSH levels, which would probably be a good thing.

If you are taking 20mg nolva then yah, you can run the 2500iu with pretty much no problems, and yes you can run it lower more frequent for longer, either way.


----------



## didless

currently running 250mg test and 200mg masteron whist doing the power pct in the hope to bring my sperm count up, ive been cycling for 6 years  would this be possible?


----------



## hackskii

didless said:


> currently running 250mg test and 200mg masteron whist doing the power pct in the hope to bring my sperm count up, ive been cycling for 6 years  would this be possible?


Your LH will never rise with androgens above natty endogenous levels.

HMG probably would be a better choice along with the HCG, but what you are looking for can take some time.


----------



## didless

so come off all gear and continue the power pct then run it a month later after 4 week break?


----------



## didless

The hmg is a 75iu vial how many iu would i need and how long should i run it for


----------



## hackskii

I feel you should come off if you want to have kids, and that may take up to a year, but perhaps less.

The HMG would be ran with the HCG, you can back off some on the HCG as they do work well together.

The FSH in the HMG will support the leydig cells.


----------



## didless

whats the protocall for the hmg and dosage hacks please


----------



## hackskii

didless said:


> whats the protocall for the hmg and dosage hacks please


It would be much the same as HCG at E3D, but could be EOD, and is used when one just can not seem to recover, or fertility.


----------



## ironhead2013

Hi hackskii im new to this so i couldn't figure out how to send you a PM.. I have a question in relation to pct.. i feel im in some major trouble!! is it possible for you to email me so i can ask you a question if you don't mind, i would appreciate it very much, thank you.

my email is.. [email protected]


----------



## hackskii

Email sent


----------



## landerson

Hi all, I haven't done a cycle, other than epi, for about 5+ years now. However I keep getting gyno! If I take letro it goes away but a few weeks after stopping it comes back! I've even tapered off the letro and used nolvadex for any rebound but it still comes back! Small lumps under each nipple that are sore to touch! This last time round I've just used 20mg of nolvadex each day and the lumps have gone and no more pain! Nothing else appears wrong, I have high sex drive, plenty of libido, erections, had a baby etc etc

Other than staying on nolvadex forever I really don't know what to do?

Hope this makes sense and someone can help!


----------



## hackskii

I would get blood work done and have them check testosterone, estrogen, and prolactin, along with thyroid.

Hypothyroid can cause gyno as well.


----------



## landerson

hackskii said:


> I would get blood work done and have them check testosterone, estrogen, and prolactin, along with thyroid.
> 
> Hypothyroid can cause gyno as well.


Should I stop taking the nolvadex and go to the doc with gyno symptoms? Or how much would it cost to do privately?

Cheers mate


----------



## hackskii

landerson said:


> Should I stop taking the nolvadex and go to the doc with gyno symptoms? Or how much would it cost to do privately?
> 
> Cheers mate


Well, without blood work, you really have no idea what is going on, and everything then is a guess.

I am in the USA so I have no idea what costs what there.


----------



## Billyboi92

hi hackski quick question i have 15,000 iu of hcg and i am in the first week of a 12 week test e 500mg and dbol 50mg cycle what woud u say is the best way to use the hcg? during my cycle or just befor pct as a blast ??


----------



## NorthernSoul

The blast is more for emergency use, to get the balls firing again from a big shut down. You aren't majorly shut down, so injected 500 twice per week or 1,000iu once a week up to pct.


----------



## hackskii

Billyboi92 said:


> hi hackski quick question i have 15,000 iu of hcg and i am in the first week of a 12 week test e 500mg and dbol 50mg cycle what woud u say is the best way to use the hcg? during my cycle or just befor pct as a blast ??


500iu twice a week throughout your cycle, and including clearance time of the gear, once the SERMS are started you can drop the HCG.


----------



## MS30

Hi Hacksii, had a sleep study done, according to the results I do not have apnea, but since I did not sleep very deeply for very long I asked for another one just to be sure. I have been taking torem 15mg ED, I have maintained focus and muscle pumps with it, but I do not have as much libido. Should I take more of it? Or do you think that it lowers estrogen too much? Thank you very much.


----------



## Billyboi92

nice one so I run 1000iu a week right up to pct so no leaveing like 3 days befor pct as I have seen other people say ? mybe this is a silly question but does hcg during cycle have any affect to gains ? and will 0.5 adex eod be ok ?


----------



## hackskii

MS30 said:


> Hi Hacksii, had a sleep study done, according to the results I do not have apnea, but since I did not sleep very deeply for very long I asked for another one just to be sure. I have been taking torem 15mg ED, I have maintained focus and muscle pumps with it, but I do not have as much libido. Should I take more of it? Or do you think that it lowers estrogen too much? Thank you very much.


I don't have alot of experience with tore, but low dose clomid works super well and will over time drive LH up pretty impressively.

I would give it more time and see how you feel.

You taking Vitamin D as well?



Billyboi92 said:


> nice one so I run 1000iu a week right up to pct so no leaveing like 3 days befor pct as I have seen other people say ? mybe this is a silly question but does hcg during cycle have any affect to gains ? and will 0.5 adex eod be ok ?


No affect on gains, unless you were taking only enough gear to slow down endo production, but you will fire testosterone even on cycle using HCG.

No need to wait the 3 days, SERMS will start to work right as HCG is clearing.

LH really wont work with SERMS while HCG is working, but FSH will, which does support leydig cells to a certain degree.


----------



## Sharpz

didless said:


> whats the protocall for the hmg and dosage hacks please


X2


----------



## Sharpz

Ignore me I see you already answered this mate


----------



## Billyboi92

when is the best time to pin hcg any day of the week I have heard do it the night befor ur test e ?


----------



## Billyboi92

one more thing how much bac water would u mix with 5000iu ? and could I extend my cycle to 15 weeks of 500mg test e with 1000iu aweek this is my first test cycle orals only befor this one ?


----------



## hackskii

Billyboi92 said:


> when is the best time to pin hcg any day of the week I have heard do it the night befor ur test e ?


At night, as the first pulse will be during sleep, but it may keep you awake and if so then morning.

All just my thoughts as I noticed it seemed to work better, but gave me insomnia.

Makes sense, making something during the recovery phase during sleep sounds good to me.



Billyboi92 said:


> one more thing how much bac water would u mix with 5000iu ? and could I extend my cycle to 15 weeks of 500mg test e with 1000iu aweek this is my first test cycle orals only befor this one ?


I use just 1ml for that, no need to use up alot of water, remember to use bacteriostatic water, and put in the fridge.


----------



## TOPX

hackskii said:


> At night, as the first pulse will be during sleep, but it may keep you awake and if so then morning.
> 
> All just my thoughts as I noticed it seemed to work better, but gave me insomnia.
> 
> Makes sense, making something during the recovery phase during sleep sounds good to me.
> 
> I use just 1ml for that, no need to use up alot of water, remember to use bacteriostatic water, and put in the fridge.


Hi Hackskii,

I am in week 9 of a 15 week Test Heptylate cycle (600 mg a week). I have been running Arimidex at 0.5mg EOD throughout but have not run HCG as I have done in previous cycles. I am going to do a blast of HCG at the end of my cycle (1000iu EOD for 20 days) and have a few questions:

When should I start the HCG? Should I start it 20 days before I am due to start my 4 week PCT (ROHM PCT tabs) or should I start it the same time as I start my PCT?

I am 23 years old, do you think 1000iu EOD for 20 days will be a sufficient dose or should it be more/less?

Should I wait 2 weeks or 3 weeks from my last jab of test before starting my PCT? I have always waited 2 weeks in the past but I'm seeing mixed advice lately some people saying 2 others saying 3.


----------



## hackskii

You probably could start it before your cycle ends and hit it every 3 days, and start a couple of weeks before your last jab, and continue that 4 to 5 weeks.

4 weeks from last jab start your SERMS, you can run the HCG the first week or so just to make sure you have testicular function and no influence from exogenous steroids.

You might want to add a bit more clomid to that though.


----------



## TOPX

hackskii said:


> You probably could start it before your cycle ends and hit it every 3 days, and start a couple of weeks before your last jab, and continue that 4 to 5 weeks.
> 
> 4 weeks from last jab start your SERMS, you can run the HCG the first week or so just to make sure you have testicular function and no influence from exogenous steroids.
> 
> You might want to add a bit more clomid to that though.


Thanks for the advice mate appreciate it.

So 1000iu every 3 days starting around 4 or 5 weeks before I start my SERMS and then I could overlap the HCG and SERMS by a week?

The ROHM PCT tabs are 100mg clomid and 40mg nolvadex per day, how much more clomid should I add to that?


----------



## hackskii

TOPX said:


> Thanks for the advice mate appreciate it.
> 
> So 1000iu every 3 days starting around 4 or 5 weeks before I start my SERMS and then I could overlap the HCG and SERMS by a week?
> 
> The ROHM PCT tabs are 100mg clomid and 40mg nolvadex per day, how much more clomid should I add to that?


I thought ROHM caps were 20mg nolva, and 50mg clomid, and like 25mg proviron or something like that?

I think you will need around 20,000iu of HCG to achieve testicular function, and possibly more.


----------



## TOPX

hackskii said:


> I thought ROHM caps were 20mg nolva, and 50mg clomid, and like 25mg proviron or something like that?
> 
> I think you will need around 20,000iu of HCG to achieve testicular function, and possibly more.


The old ROHM PCT caps were 50mg clomid, 20mg nolva, 25mg proviron and pt-141 (not sure of dose) per capsule but you took 2 a day.

Now they are in tablet form and they have dropped the proviron and pt-141. You take 4 tabs a day, think it's 25mg clomid and 10mg nolva per tab, haven't got the pot with me to check at the moment.

If I was to run the HCG at 1000ie E3D I'd bee looking at 60 days in total to get through 20,000iu which is roughly 8 weeks, would it be best to keep the number of weeks on HCG to 4 or 5 but use a higher dose per shot instead of 1000iu?


----------



## Billyboi92

So would u say pin the hcg day befor test e or any day of the week


----------



## MS30

Thanks Hacksii. Yes I am taking 5k IU daily, feeling better on clomid than tore. I am going to try epitalon to see if it will undo any damage.



hackskii said:


> I don't have alot of experience with tore, but low dose clomid works super well and will over time drive LH up pretty impressively.
> 
> I would give it more time and see how you feel.
> 
> You taking Vitamin D as well?
> 
> Thanks Hacksii. Yes I am taking 5k IU daily, feeling better on clomid than tore. I am going to try epitalon to see if it will undo any damage.
> 
> No affect on gains, unless you were taking only enough gear to slow down endo production, but you will fire testosterone even on cycle using HCG.
> 
> No need to wait the 3 days, SERMS will start to work right as HCG is clearing.
> 
> LH really wont work with SERMS while HCG is working, but FSH will, which does support leydig cells to a certain degree.


Thanks Hacksii. Yes I am taking 5k IU daily, feeling better on clomid than tore. I am going to try epitalon to see if it will undo any damage.


----------



## Billyboi92

hcg night befor test pin or anyday of the week ?


----------



## hackskii

TOPX said:


> The old ROHM PCT caps were 50mg clomid, 20mg nolva, 25mg proviron and pt-141 (not sure of dose) per capsule but you took 2 a day.
> 
> Now they are in tablet form and they have dropped the proviron and pt-141. You take 4 tabs a day, think it's 25mg clomid and 10mg nolva per tab, haven't got the pot with me to check at the moment.
> 
> If I was to run the HCG at 1000ie E3D I'd bee looking at 60 days in total to get through 20,000iu which is roughly 8 weeks, would it be best to keep the number of weeks on HCG to 4 or 5 but use a higher dose per shot instead of 1000iu?


You could get more aggressive, but I took the longer more gentle approach.



Billyboi92 said:


> So would u say pin the hcg day befor test e or any day of the week


Either way is fine, probably at night before bed might be best, but may interfere with sleep.


----------



## Billyboi92

ok so I started getting slighty sensitive nipples on 0.5 eod should I just up my dose to 0.5 ed I was going to start hcg tonight aswell but should I wait for the nipples to carm down till I start as I heard it can cause gyno ?


----------



## ddon

I need help.

I am new to steroid. I took Test cypionate Jan 21st 2014, got shut down 2 days after. started using hcgenerate after 3 day to bring it back but no sign and liquidex after few days but no sign still. Liquidex made me feel weird. I had stop test totally. after that first shot. it was (10unit of an insulin injection). I need help. I can get HCG but don't know where to find HMG. I need help in bring it back for valentines day.  and also my girl wants a baby and she worried and I have been running say am busy but no sexual feeling , no sex drive or no libido. Please see my test result in attachment. I just need my sex life back and no more steroid for me. HELP!

Hackskii I need your help and anybody with good advice. I also need help getting HMG.


----------



## Billyboi92

would like some advise on what to do with slighty sore nipples was on 0.5 eod should i take 1mg aday till the soreness has gone or just start taking 0.5 ed and see if he gets betters help on this would be helpfull  dont want gyno


----------



## Billyboi92

Somepme please get back to me ! Lol


----------



## mason42

Billyboi92 said:


> would like some advise on what to do with slighty sore nipples was on 0.5 eod should i take 1mg aday till the soreness has gone or just start taking 0.5 ed and see if he gets betters help on this would be helpfull  dont want gyno


Give us a clue as to what medication the 0.5 is billy and we could answer your question :confused1:

would also help if we knew what dose of test or tren you are or have been doing.

Im assumeing arimadex or aromasin or maybe even letrozole is your 0.5 med ?

I would do 1mg very day for a few days and if that clears it up then you can drop to

0.5 every day.


----------



## Billyboi92

i am running 500mg test e for 12 weeks and 50mg dianabol for 4 weeks on week 3 started to get sore nipples about 4 5 days ago i have been taking 0.5 arimidex eod from day one? i have little tiny tiny pea size lumps under nipples they have been there for years though but its more the tiny lumps that have become kind of sore and sensitive do i up my dose to 0.5 ed and nolvadex at 20mg till it clears or 1mg ed and nolvadex ?


----------



## mason42

Billyboi92 said:


> i am running 500mg test e for 12 weeks and 50mg dianabol for 4 weeks on week 3 started to get sore nipples about 4 5 days ago i have been taking 0.5 arimidex eod from day one? i have little tiny tiny pea size lumps under nipples they have been there for years though but its more the tiny lumps that have become kind of sore and sensitive do i up my dose to 0.5 ed and nolvadex at 20mg till it clears or 1mg ed and nolvadex ?


Yea you got mild gyno, think most of us have had it at some point but its reversable.

Just do the 1mg of arim ed, that should clear it up, then you can lower the

dosage down to 0.5 ed, maybe get back to 0.5 eod, safer at that dose.

Dont take nolva with arim. Theres an interaction there that lowers the effectiveness

of the arimidex.


----------



## ddon

hackskii said:


> Have you ever used steroids before?


I need help.

I am new to steroid. I took Test cypionate Jan 21st 2014, got shut down 2 days after. started using hcgenerate after 3 day to bring it back but no sign and liquidex after few days but no sign still. Liquidex made me feel weird. I had stop test totally. after that first shot. it was (10unit of an insulin injection). I need help. I can get HCG but don't know where to find HMG. I need help in bring it back for valentines day. and also my girl wants a baby and she worried and I have been running say am busy but no sexual feeling , no sex drive or no libido. Please see my test result in attachment. I just need my sex life back and no more steroid for me. HELP!

Hackskii I need your help and anybody with good advice. I also need help getting HMG.


----------



## thomson2708

Guys I am currently running the below as suggested by Mogy

having to run 1500iu as supplier didn't have 2500iu

I have been on this since Monday , but don't feel am seeing any results yet from the HCG.

Days 1 - 16 HCG 1500iu every other day

Days 1 - 44 nolva 20mg

Days 17 - 30 clomid 100mg

Days 30-37 clomid 50mg

Is this okay to run or should I start running 1500 ED ?

Cheers


----------



## thomson2708

any one ?


----------



## MS30

hackskii said:


> I don't have alot of experience with tore, but low dose clomid works super well and will over time drive LH up pretty impressively.
> 
> I would give it more time and see how you feel.
> 
> You taking Vitamin D as well?
> 
> Hi Hacksii, got word from doc that I do have moderate sleep apnea, getting cpap soon.


----------



## hackskii

ddon said:


> View attachment 145050
> View attachment 145051
> 
> 
> I need help.
> 
> I am new to steroid. I took Test cypionate Jan 21st 2014, got shut down 2 days after. started using hcgenerate after 3 day to bring it back but no sign and liquidex after few days but no sign still. Liquidex made me feel weird. I had stop test totally. after that first shot. it was (10unit of an insulin injection). I need help. I can get HCG but don't know where to find HMG. I need help in bring it back for valentines day.  and also my girl wants a baby and she worried and I have been running say am busy but no sexual feeling , no sex drive or no libido. Please see my test result in attachment. I just need my sex life back and no more steroid for me. HELP!
> 
> Hackskii I need your help and anybody with good advice. I also need help getting HMG.


1 shot, dont worry about it, you are not shut down, your test levels are fine, but you have some other issue with your blood, or allergies or some thing going on there, not testosterone, or anything else, those are all fine, you wont need to do anything.



Billyboi92 said:


> would like some advise on what to do with slighty sore nipples was on 0.5 eod should i take 1mg aday till the soreness has gone or just start taking 0.5 ed and see if he gets betters help on this would be helpfull  dont want gyno


Try .5 ED then, but if you get stiff joints, no libido, go back to EOD.



Billyboi92 said:


> i am running 500mg test e for 12 weeks and 50mg dianabol for 4 weeks on week 3 started to get sore nipples about 4 5 days ago i have been taking 0.5 arimidex eod from day one? i have little tiny tiny pea size lumps under nipples they have been there for years though but its more the tiny lumps that have become kind of sore and sensitive do i up my dose to 0.5 ed and nolvadex at 20mg till it clears or 1mg ed and nolvadex ?


You are gyno prone, so you can add some nolva in there if you really want to, dbol is notorious for gyno, and certainly with that much test, so go half tab ED.



ddon said:


> I need help.
> 
> I am new to steroid. I took Test cypionate Jan 21st 2014, got shut down 2 days after. started using hcgenerate after 3 day to bring it back but no sign and liquidex after few days but no sign still. Liquidex made me feel weird. I had stop test totally. after that first shot. it was (10unit of an insulin injection). I need help. I can get HCG but don't know where to find HMG. I need help in bring it back for valentines day. and also my girl wants a baby and she worried and I have been running say am busy but no sexual feeling , no sex drive or no libido. Please see my test result in attachment. I just need my sex life back and no more steroid for me. HELP!
> 
> Hackskii I need your help and anybody with good advice. I also need help getting HMG.
> View attachment 145107
> View attachment 145108


As above, no need to do anything, but you got some issue with your blood, allergies or something disease perhaps, your T levels are fine.


----------



## ddon

I lost all my sexual feeling and cant get erection. and if i do it will be 10%. what to do to speed up the recovery. or do you think i am partially shutdown because i shrunk a little and 2% sperm, look like clear water  . I can have sex or feel a woman or lust. As far as the high pat in blood result, i was really sick few days ago when i got blood drawn and treated for bronchitis.


----------



## ddon

hackskii said:


> 1 shot, dont worry about it, you are not shut down, your test levels are fine, but you have some other issue with your blood, or allergies or some thing going on there, not testosterone, or anything else, those are all fine, you wont need to do anything.
> 
> Try .5 ED then, but if you get stiff joints, no libido, go back to EOD.
> 
> You are gyno prone, so you can add some nolva in there if you really want to, dbol is notorious for gyno, and certainly with that much test, so go half tab ED.
> 
> As above, no need to do anything, but you got some issue with your blood, allergies or something disease perhaps, your T levels are fine.


I lost all my sexual feeling and cant get erection. and if i do it will be 10%. what to do to speed up the recovery. or do you think i am partially shutdown because i shrunk a little and 2% sperm, look like clear water  . I can have sex or feel a woman or lust. As far as the high pat in blood result, i was really sick few days ago when i got blood drawn and treated for bronchitis.


----------



## Billyboi92

thanks hackski i just want the sore nipples to go and then i will proberley go 0.5 ed arimidex as eod still gave me sore nipples so should i take 1mg arimidex and nolvadex still sore nipples have gone and then drop it back to 0.5 ed ? and should i wait to start hcg till the sore nipples have cleared up ?


----------



## Billyboi92

hackskii said:


> 1 shot, dont worry about it, you are not shut down, your test levels are fine, but you have some other issue with your blood, or allergies or some thing going on there, not testosterone, or anything else, those are all fine, you wont need to do anything.
> 
> Try .5 ED then, but if you get stiff joints, no libido, go back to EOD.
> 
> You are gyno prone, so you can add some nolva in there if you really want to, dbol is notorious for gyno, and certainly with that much test, so go half tab ED.
> 
> As above, no need to do anything, but you got some issue with your blood, allergies or something disease perhaps, your T levels are fine.


thanks hackski i just want the sore nipples to go and then i will proberley go 0.5 ed arimidex as eod still gave me sore nipples so should i take 1mg arimidex and nolvadex still sore nipples have gone and then drop it back to 0.5 ed ? and should i wait to start hcg till the sore nipples have cleared up ?


----------



## hackskii

ddon said:


> I lost all my sexual feeling and cant get erection. and if i do it will be 10%. what to do to speed up the recovery. or do you think i am partially shutdown because i shrunk a little and 2% sperm, look like clear water  . I can have sex or feel a woman or lust. As far as the high pat in blood result, i was really sick few days ago when i got blood drawn and treated for bronchitis.


I think this is something entirely different than what you think it is, and more than likely due to being sick.



Billyboi92 said:


> thanks hackski i just want the sore nipples to go and then i will proberley go 0.5 ed arimidex as eod still gave me sore nipples so should i take 1mg arimidex and nolvadex still sore nipples have gone and then drop it back to 0.5 ed ? and should i wait to start hcg till the sore nipples have cleared up ?


If you are using .5 EOD, then go to .5 ED, and if you still have issues then add the nolva, or your AI is not any good.


----------



## Billyboi92

So dont go to 1mg ed till sides clear ? Just want to get that right as have heard that from other people and if I was to add nolva should I do half tab or whole ? One more thing hcg I was going to start this last week but started gettim sore nipples so I didnt start as people said it can make gyno worse ?


----------



## ddon

hackskii said:


> 1 shot, dont worry about it, you are not shut down, your test levels are fine, but you have some other issue with your blood, or allergies or some thing going on there, not testosterone, or anything else, those are all fine, you wont need to do anything.
> 
> Try .5 ED then, but if you get stiff joints, no libido, go back to EOD.
> 
> You are gyno prone, so you can add some nolva in there if you really want to, dbol is notorious for gyno, and certainly with that much test, so go half tab ED.
> 
> As above, no need to do anything, but you got some issue with your blood, allergies or something disease perhaps, your T levels are fine.


I mean i shrinked and my dick got smaller. Cant have erection. I was fine before pre-injection. My sickness is just for cough which is bronchitis. my balls are aching/pain and small. I can have small 5% erection as of today. it will rise and then down quickly.


----------



## hackskii

Billyboi92 said:


> So dont go to 1mg ed till sides clear ? Just want to get that right as have heard that from other people and if I was to add nolva should I do half tab or whole ? One more thing hcg I was going to start this last week but started gettim sore nipples so I didnt start as people said it can make gyno worse ?


Ok, look at it this way, you are on .5mg adex EOD right?

If you go to 1mg ED that is increasing your dose by 4 times.

When dealing with estrogen a number of things happen.

First it may take 3 weeks for blood plasma levels to be in 100%.

So, you up the dose too high, you will get low estrogen sides, and that is not good.

With an AI you move the dose up little by little.

Nolva can lower blood plasma levels of adex, so that is another thing to consider.


----------



## hackskii

ddon said:


> I mean i shrinked and my dick got smaller. Cant have erection. I was fine before pre-injection. My sickness is just for cough which is bronchitis. my balls are aching/pain and small. I can have small 5% erection as of today. it will rise and then down quickly.


First of all, you did not give the mg used in the shot, so I have no idea how much you shot.

Not to mention you saying you got testicular atrophy after 2 days and up to 14 days?

No way, never going to happen, 2 months yes, not two days, and HCGenerate is some over the counter crap that in now way works, only thing in common with HCG is its name, throw that stuff in the trash and lesson learned there.

You will be fine, personally I think much of this has to do with timing of you being sick, thinking you are shut down, and you are only living what your mind is telling you.

You are fine, trust me.


----------



## Billyboi92

Ok thanks with hcg should I wait till nipples are better as I heard can make symptoms worse ?


----------



## hackskii

Billyboi92 said:


> Ok thanks with hcg should I wait till nipples are better as I heard can make symptoms worse ?


Well, it surely can make them worse, and the more you use the faster that will happen.

Generally speaking though, beginning of a cycle gyno usually is not an issue, it is at the end of the cycle for some reason.


----------



## Billyboi92

well i bought 15000 iu and was going to start it week 2 3 at 1000iu a week but nipples started getting sore so i did not start it what u recommend i do


----------



## hackskii

Billyboi92 said:


> well i bought 15000 iu and was going to start it week 2 3 at 1000iu a week but nipples started getting sore so i did not start it what u recommend i do


Up the dose of adex, then see how you feel.

At 500iu HCG during a cycle will keep and maintain testicular function.


----------



## Billyboi92

ok thanks hackski ive read on here stuff you have wrote saying 1000iu weekly till pct ?


----------



## V E G E T A

hackskii said:


> I talked to the doc today on the phone and he answered many questions for me in regards to recovery of the HPTA.
> 
> For those of you who don't know what that is it is "Hypothalamus Pituitary Testicular Axis"
> 
> After administration of AAS, you have shutdown of the HPTA. Depending on the meds taken shutdown can be severe and much does depend on the person as well.
> 
> This is the protocol the doc said he used in literally thousands of users with suppressed HPTA.
> 
> First thing, the 500iu a day was not enough to make the testicles do their job, he suggested this was just a waste of time and money.
> 
> He suggests 8 shots of HCG @ 2500iu EOD.
> 
> With this you take 20 mg of nolvadex for 45 days.
> 
> Clomid is also taken but twice a day @ 50mg each dose 12 hours apart.
> 
> The reason for the amounts of HCG (which is the most important part, if the balls don't fire everything else is worthless), is based on his determination to bring the balls back to life, too little wont accomplish this, too much risks damage to the Leydig cells.
> 
> So he basically was saying that you do the HCG and around day 10 of the above protocol, you should get a blood test for testosterone. If it is above 400 or greater then this says the balls will be just fine once you get off the HCG and the Clomid and nolva take over. This will accept the LH that you are putting out to maintain testicular function.
> 
> He used the term like jumping a car. Your battery (Pituitary gland) if low wont start your car (your testicles), if you use another car and jumper cables (HCG) once the car starts your battery (HP part of the HPTA) will keep your car running.
> 
> The clomid by itself he suggested can inhibit either the pituitary or the hypothalamus (can't remember which one) but if taken with nolva this blocks the estrogen receptors so you wont inhibit that.
> 
> So clomid in his protocol is always taken with nolvadex ALWAYS.
> 
> He did mention that sometimes the balls just don't take and then you do the protocol again. He said it was rare that he could not fire up the HPTA.
> 
> He said that beings that I have good size difference (balls), feel good, strength gains, and a greasy face he felt I should have no problems with returning the HPTA.
> 
> Some things he said was tribulis was actually inhibitory on the HPTA, great I wish I found that out after I bought two bottles.
> 
> ZMA, he said if it made me feel good then go for it but it is placebo and the HCG, clomid, nolva was it and all that is needed.
> 
> Talked to him about progesterone and he said never take that if you are a man (the last doc prescribed it to me)
> 
> Sorry aftershock, I forgot to ask him about the GH question he was saying so much I was just trying to listen.
> 
> One thing he did mention (in an article) was that HGH actually helped with the testicular recovery with things and adding that to the Protocol is a good idea and productive.
> 
> Avoid aspirin when on HCG as it kind of ruins the effects.
> 
> He said oxandrolone was suppressive on the HPTA, but Deca and Anadrol were probably the worst in his opinion. I asked him about tren but he had no knowledge as he never used it.
> 
> He did mention that test in itself was not all that suppressive and he has seen guys on 18 months that came off and made a full recovery in 45 days with the above protocol.
> 
> He said one of the best ways was 12 weeks of test, followed by the above protocol, then start another 12 weeks followed by the above protocol with a month off after that then start again.
> 
> He did say that desensitization to HCG took around 2 months, and the dose of 2500 was fine and no damage or desensitization would occur if you followed his protocol.
> 
> There it is.


would HCG be necessary on an anavar only cycle? I took 100MG clomid EOD and feel great, wood all the time, kept my gains... Would HCG only be necessary for a cycle that included test?


----------



## thomson2708

hackskii said:


> Well, it surely can make them worse, and the more you use the faster that will happen.
> 
> Generally speaking though, beginning of a cycle gyno usually is not an issue, it is at the end of the cycle for some reason.


Hi Hackskii

I am currently running the below as suggested by Mogy

having to run 1500iu as supplier didn't have 2500iu

I have been on this since Monday , but don't feel am seeing any results yet from the HCG.

Days 1 - 16 HCG 1500iu every other day

Days 1 - 44 nolva 20mg

Days 17 - 30 clomid 100mg

Days 30-37 clomid 50mg

Is this okay to run or should I start running 1500 ED ?

I have been on this for a week now with still no change down below for atrophy.

Thanks


----------



## hackskii

Billyboi92 said:


> ok thanks hackski ive read on here stuff you have wrote saying 1000iu weekly till pct ?


Sure, that is fine.



V E G E T A said:


> would HCG be necessary on an anavar only cycle? I took 100MG clomid EOD and feel great, wood all the time, kept my gains... Would HCG only be necessary for a cycle that included test?


Well, it depends on how long you are on, what meds you take, and the amounts as well.

6 week anavar cycle, clomid would be fine.

12 weeks deca, better add some HCG....lol


----------



## hackskii

thomson2708 said:


> Hi Hackskii
> 
> I am currently running the below as suggested by Mogy
> 
> having to run 1500iu as supplier didn't have 2500iu
> 
> I have been on this since Monday , but don't feel am seeing any results yet from the HCG.
> 
> Days 1 - 16 HCG 1500iu every other day
> 
> Days 1 - 44 nolva 20mg
> 
> Days 17 - 30 clomid 100mg
> 
> Days 30-37 clomid 50mg
> 
> Is this okay to run or should I start running 1500 ED ?
> 
> I have been on this for a week now with still no change down below for atrophy.
> 
> Thanks


WEll, at least run some clomid with that, this will move FSH up some even on HCG.

Other than that, it would depend on how long you were on, and what meds used.

Many questions on same page with different people make it hard for me to remember everyone's cycles and problems.


----------



## thomson2708

hackskii said:


> WEll, at least run some clomid with that, this will move FSH up some even on HCG.
> 
> Other than that, it would depend on how long you were on, and what meds used.
> 
> Many questions on same page with different people make it hard for me to remember everyone's cycles and problems.


Thanks Hackskii , I was running test ethanate 500mg and deca 400mg for 8 weeks

I thought you couldn't take clomid along with hcg , if taking this along side the hcg would you recommend around 50mg or go for 100?

Many thanks !


----------



## hackskii

Well, I would use 100mg myself.


----------



## thomson2708

hackskii said:


> Well, I would use 100mg myself.


Thanks I will add that in from tomorrow

Do you think 1500iu be too little to fix the damage caused?


----------



## Billyboi92

hackskii said:


> Sure, that is fine.
> 
> Well, it depends on how long you are on, what meds you take, and the amounts as well.
> 
> 6 week anavar cycle, clomid would be fine.
> 
> 12 weeks deca, better add some HCG....lol


 If I started it now though will it make my sore nipples worse


----------



## hackskii

thomson2708 said:


> Thanks I will add that in from tomorrow
> 
> Do you think 1500iu be too little to fix the damage caused?


Can you remind me what your cycle was?

This will better reflect how much it may take to restore testicular function.


----------



## hackskii

Billyboi92 said:


> If I started it now though will it make my sore nipples worse


Well, it could, but if you add nolva, no.


----------



## thomson2708

hackskii said:


> Can you remind me what your cycle was?
> 
> This will better reflect how much it may take to restore testicular function.


Was 500mg test e and 400 deca ran for 8 weeks

Nolva on weeks 2 and 4 at 20mg

And proviron weeks 3 and 4


----------



## hackskii

thomson2708 said:


> Was 500mg test e and 400 deca ran for 8 weeks
> 
> Nolva on weeks 2 and 4 at 20mg
> 
> And proviron weeks 3 and 4


Well, it will take around a month for that to clear.

Deca takes time to clear.

I would run the HCG at what you said, EOD to E3d, run low dose clomid at 50mg per day, 20mg nolva, and after last jab of HCG, up the clomid to 100mg.

Need a bit of time away from the deca, but 8 weeks is tame so you may be ok.


----------



## thomson2708

hackskii said:


> Well, it will take around a month for that to clear.
> 
> Deca takes time to clear.
> 
> I would run the HCG at what you said, EOD to E3d, run low dose clomid at 50mg per day, 20mg nolva, and after last jab of HCG, up the clomid to 100mg.
> 
> Need a bit of time away from the deca, but 8 weeks is tame so you may be ok.


Yeah I stopped the cycle back in December and started running clomid 50mg and nolva 20 for a couple weeks but was recommended to get some hcg so stopped until now when I got the hcg.

I will keep it going and hopefully see some life back soon


----------



## Billyboi92

hackskii said:


> Sure, that is fine.
> 
> Well, it depends on how long you are on, what meds you take, and the amounts as well.
> 
> 6 week anavar cycle, clomid would be fine.
> 
> 12 weeks deca, better add some HCG....lol


 hackski ive been taking 1mg adex and 20mg nolva for a few days now and soreness in nipples are still the same i am a little confused on what to do next should i up the nolva to 40mg or just drop the dianabol i am on the start of week 4 its a 4 week kickstart of a 12 weeks 500mg test e cycle ?


----------



## Billyboi92

could someone please help here ?


----------



## hackskii

Drop the dbol


----------



## Billyboi92

hackskii said:


> Drop the dbol


 Ok mate will do just a quick question if you up dosage and add nolvadex how long untill that should start working ?


----------



## jazzo1

Hackskii can you help me with my cycle? I can tell your the most knowledgable person on this site iv been following your posts before coming a member..


----------



## hackskii

Billyboi92 said:


> Ok mate will do just a quick question if you up dosage and add nolvadex how long untill that should start working ?


Not too long, but it wont matter it needs to be done anyway.


----------



## MS30

Hey Hacksii, I have been using my cpap for a while and I am feeling better, but lately I have been getting a flushed face and neck for a few min. Could it be too much clomid? Or too much vitamin d3. D3 5k daily, clomid 12.5-25mg ED. Thanks.


----------



## hackskii

MS30 said:


> Hey Hacksii, I have been using my cpap for a while and I am feeling better, but lately I have been getting a flushed face and neck for a few min. Could it be too much clomid? Or too much vitamin d3. D3 5k daily, clomid 12.5-25mg ED. Thanks.


I doubt it is any of those.

Are you getting night time wood?


----------



## mr_ba

Hi hackskii, Im new to the forum and have read many of your posts. I would like to pm your regarding a restart pct after having low test even 8 months after last jab. However I do not have access to pm a member. Could I trouble you for some advice and contact you via email? Many thanks in advanced


----------



## hackskii

mr_ba said:


> Hi hackskii, Im new to the forum and have read many of your posts. I would like to pm your regarding a restart pct after having low test even 8 months after last jab. However I do not have access to pm a member. Could I trouble you for some advice and contact you via email? Many thanks in advanced


Sure [email protected]


----------



## MS30

hackskii said:


> I doubt it is any of those.
> 
> Are you getting night time wood?


Yes, still getting night time erections. I believe that the flushing of neck and face was due to too much niacin. I switched from 750mg tabs to 500 mg capsules which apparently are absorbed better than tabs. I am going to give cpap a few weeks then go to doc for levels. Nipples are firm more often so it looks like prolactin is going down. I have been trying to finish school and hope to get back to working out soon. Any idea if I should come off clomid soon?


----------



## hackskii

MS30 said:


> Yes, still getting night time erections. I believe that the flushing of neck and face was due to too much niacin. I switched from 750mg tabs to 500 mg capsules which apparently are absorbed better than tabs. I am going to give cpap a few weeks then go to doc for levels. Nipples are firm more often so it looks like prolactin is going down. I have been trying to finish school and hope to get back to working out soon. Any idea if I should come off clomid soon?


Niacin is so known for flushing, we would take that in school and then get sent to the nurse then home.

I actually hate that feeling of your skin feeling there is bugs in it, I hate that.

The coated one seems to avoid that, I hear taking an aspirin 20 minutes before the niacin helps that.

Well, lets just gauge your response to the clomid, you can keep reducing it and keep an eye on night time erections.

I would still stay on the vitamin D at 5000iu per day, 1 cod liver cap, 25mg zinc, and magnesium every day.


----------



## Billyboi92

Hi I am now running 0.5 eod and 20mg nolva ed to keep gyno at bay . On week 8 of a 15 week 500mg test e cycle and I am getting really stiff pains in my knee joints ? Could anyone help me found out what this could be


----------



## hackskii

Billyboi92 said:


> Hi I am now running 0.5 eod and 20mg nolva ed to keep gyno at bay . On week 8 of a 15 week 500mg test e cycle and I am getting really stiff pains in my knee joints ? Could anyone help me found out what this could be


It is the AI.


----------



## Billyboi92

hackskii said:


> It is the AI.


thank you i thought it could be what can i do about it lower back hurts now should i lower the adex dose ? i am just worried about lowering adex as i had to add nolva in to keep gyno at bay worried if i lower adex gyno will start getting bad again ? and this pain has only started since i added in nolva :/


----------



## Billyboi92

could i drop adex alltogether and just run nolva for gyno or would that not work


----------



## hackskii

Billyboi92 said:


> thank you i thought it could be what can i do about it lower back hurts now should i lower the adex dose ? i am just worried about lowering adex as i had to add nolva in to keep gyno at bay worried if i lower adex gyno will start getting bad again ? and this pain has only started since i added in nolva :/





Billyboi92 said:


> could i drop adex alltogether and just run nolva for gyno or would that not work


Yes, you can run the nolva alone, or drop the dose of the adex.


----------



## Billyboi92

hackskii said:


> Yes, you can run the nolva alone, or drop the dose of the adex.


ok so if i lower dose what do u suggest i go to?? i would love to drop adex all together but i am worried that make my gyno go mad or would 20mg nolva be enough to keep gyno at bay ?


----------



## Marshan

20mgs a day is the widely accepted dose for Nolvadex.


----------



## hackskii

mixerD1 said:


> 20mgs a day is the widely accepted dose for Nolvadex.


As above...


----------



## Billyboi92

hackskii said:


> As above...


Ok but what about the adex if its making me have stiff joints should i lower the dose of adex or drop it ? If i dropped it i would worry about gyno coming back


----------



## John J Rambo

Billyboi92 said:


> Ok but what about the adex if its making me have stiff joints should i lower the dose of adex or drop it ? If i dropped it i would worry about gyno coming back


Maybe switch to Aromasin? Ive read that's helped.

Similar problem to you.

I'm on week 9 of test e 500mg and my E got high in week 6 and killed my sex drive, prior to that it was thru the roof but since then its like I'm not even taking test.

I had been taking .25mg adex e3d but had to increase it quite a lot. I've upped it now to .5mg ed and my sex drive is gradually returning but my finger joints are killing me.

Would love to get back to that sweet spot I had in weeks 3 to 6 but dont think it will happen on this cycle.


----------



## Billyboi92

yes but i was on 0.5 adex eod and started gettin gyno added in nolva and my joints have gone mad :/ dont no if i should lower the adex with the nolva or just drop adex and see if the nolva on its own is enough to control gyno issuses


----------



## Billyboi92

I have been getting a bad belly pains trapped wind and the runs for about 3 weeks now i jab on a monday and allways seems to happen mid week and gett better by the end of the week have not got a clue what this is


----------



## hackskii

Billyboi92 said:


> Ok but what about the adex if its making me have stiff joints should i lower the dose of adex or drop it ? If i dropped it i would worry about gyno coming back


Lower the dose, drop the nolva.


----------



## Billyboi92

hackskii said:


> Lower the dose, drop the nolva.


Hackskii I had to add the nolva because 0.5eod adex was making my gyno worse ? If I dropped nolva and lowered adex it would make it even worse I am confused :s should I just lower the adex to every 2 or 3 days and keep nolva 20mg ed ? And see if that helps my stiff joints and back


----------



## hackskii

Oh, sorry, misread.

Sounds like your adex might not be any good, so if you are getting gyno at .5mg EOD then do .5 ED and see if this helps.

It may take up to 3 weeks to get blood plasma levels of adex up to speed.


----------



## Billyboi92

hackskii said:


> Oh, sorry, misread.
> 
> Sounds like your adex might not be any good, so if you are getting gyno at .5mg EOD then do .5 ED and see if this helps.
> 
> It may take up to 3 weeks to get blood plasma levels of adex up to speed.


Ok I will try that what about my joints in my knees and bad back ? I have been pinning once a week is that ok or should I change to twice weekly


----------



## Sportbilly

I've just had bloods done and the results were scary .. Estradoil was 1112 pmol/l, the reference range is 28 to 156. Test was 52 nmol/l .. again very high. My FSH and sex hormones are in the dirt.

Enchronologists suggestion was to jump off everything for 3 to 6 months. She had no idea what to do in reality, she'd not seen anything like it. I suggested I keep the Nolvadex going, she said no. It doesn't seem right to me that you do nothing and wait for your body to sort itself out .. I'm 47 that **** can take forever.

The irony is that I'm my most ripped / leanest now at 8% bodyfat, muscle mass is up and liver, kidneys etc all in perfect health.

Needless to say I'm necking arimidex and injecting HMG just to get the FSH going .. any other ideas graciously received as will professional references.

Oh .. I was doing 3 x 500 i.u. HCG through cycle .... be careful with that ****, though I do seem to be a good dancer now.


----------



## Billyboi92

?? Any idea y I have bad back and stiff knee caps


----------



## hackskii

Billyboi92 said:


> Ok I will try that what about my joints in my knees and bad back ? I have been pinning once a week is that ok or should I change to twice weekly


Sounds like either estrogen is too low, or you are doing 10iu a day of GH...lol



Sportbilly said:


> I've just had bloods done and the results were scary .. Estradoil was 1112 pmol/l, the reference range is 28 to 156. Test was 52 nmol/l .. again very high. My FSH and sex hormones are in the dirt.
> 
> Enchronologists suggestion was to jump off everything for 3 to 6 months. She had no idea what to do in reality, she'd not seen anything like it. I suggested I keep the Nolvadex going, she said no. It doesn't seem right to me that you do nothing and wait for your body to sort itself out .. I'm 47 that **** can take forever.
> 
> The irony is that I'm my most ripped / leanest now at 8% bodyfat, muscle mass is up and liver, kidneys etc all in perfect health.
> 
> Needless to say I'm necking arimidex and injecting HMG just to get the FSH going .. any other ideas graciously received as will professional references.
> 
> Oh .. I was doing 3 x 500 i.u. HCG through cycle .... be careful with that ****, though I do seem to be a good dancer now.


Well, with all that HCG, and HMG in the mix, you can run that till the test clears your body, then use just the SERMS (clomid and nolva).

That spike in estrogen is likely to do with the hCG as well.



Billyboi92 said:


> ?? Any idea y I have bad back and stiff knee caps


That probably will be from estrogen too low.


----------



## Sportbilly

hackskii said:


> Well, with all that HCG, and HMG in the mix, you can run that till the test clears your body, then use just the SERMS (clomid and nolva).
> 
> That spike in estrogen is likely to do with the hCG as well.
> 
> .


Thanks. Do you think GNRH and GHRP would help ? I've read that mega dosing Triptorelin will expedite the process.


----------



## Billyboi92

hackskii said:


> Sounds like either estrogen is too low, or you are doing 10iu a day of GH...lol
> 
> Well, with all that HCG, and HMG in the mix, you can run that till the test clears your body, then use just the SERMS (clomid and nolva).
> 
> That spike in estrogen is likely to do with the hCG as well.
> 
> That probably will be from estrogen too low.


Ok but how can estrogen be to low if the little lunps I have under each nipple start getting worse ?


----------



## Arc

hey hackskii

i am now 25, second time to use steroids first one was just 12 wks of test, ai and hcg 1000 i.u a wk, going to start a blast and cruise for a year may be more

just test alone, Ai and hcg

as for hcg, can i inject 5000 i.u every 4 weeks to keep balls alive for better recovery and as i want to have children in the future without risking desensitizing my balls

i know it is optimum to use 1000 i.u a week but due to parent issues  i can't keep my hcg in the fridge


----------



## hackskii

Sportbilly said:


> Thanks. Do you think GNRH and GHRP would help ? I've read that mega dosing Triptorelin will expedite the process.


I would leave the trip alone if it was me.

You can run the peptides if you like.



Billyboi92 said:


> Ok but how can estrogen be to low if the little lunps I have under each nipple start getting worse ?


Why not get a blood test and find out?



Arc said:


> hey hackskii
> 
> i am now 25, second time to use steroids first one was just 12 wks of test, ai and hcg 1000 i.u a wk, going to start a blast and cruise for a year may be more
> 
> just test alone, Ai and hcg
> 
> as for hcg, can i inject 5000 i.u every 4 weeks to keep balls alive for better recovery and as i want to have children in the future without risking desensitizing my balls
> 
> i know it is optimum to use 1000 i.u a week but due to parent issues  i can't keep my hcg in the fridge


I would not shoot 5000iu every 4 weeks.


----------



## Arc

hackskii said:


> I would not shoot 5000iu every 4 weeks.


so what do you suggest?


----------



## Billyboi92

hackskii said:


> I would leave the trip alone if it was me.
> 
> You can run the peptides if you like.
> 
> Why not get a blood test and find out?
> 
> I would not shoot 5000iu every 4 weeks.


Thanks I will get that done . One more thing I have hcg which I should of started at beginning of cycle but didnt for a few reasons but I would like to know how should I use 15,000 ius at the end of cycle ??


----------



## hackskii

Arc said:


> so what do you suggest?


500iu twice a week throughout.



Billyboi92 said:


> Thanks I will get that done . One more thing I have hcg which I should of started at beginning of cycle but didnt for a few reasons but I would like to know how should I use 15,000 ius at the end of cycle ??


You can start that now as 500iu twice a week, or even every 3 days you can shoot 500iu.


----------



## Billyboi92

hackskii said:


> 500iu twice a week throughout.
> 
> You can start that now as 500iu twice a week, or even every 3 days you can shoot 500iu.


Yes but aren't you supposed to start hcg week 2 or 3 ? I am mid week of week 8 I have about 5 weeks left do I start now or use hcg as a blast befor pct??


----------



## Billyboi92

??


----------



## hackskii

Billyboi92 said:


> Yes but aren't you supposed to start hcg week 2 or 3 ? I am mid week of week 8 I have about 5 weeks left do I start now or use hcg as a blast befor pct??


Why not start now?

You can blast the hCG a bit higher if you like then drop back down.


----------



## Billyboi92

hackskii said:


> Why not start now?
> 
> You can blast the hCG a bit higher if you like then drop back down.


Ok i will start 500ius twice weekly now but i will have some hcg left when test finishes what should i do with this blast some higher dosages befor pct ? And will hcg make gyno worse ?


----------



## Billyboi92

And whens the best time to pin hcg can i do it the same time i pin test e ?


----------



## Billyboi92

??


----------



## hackskii

I think best time is to pin at night.

I would also if you could pin a bit more now, and yes you can pin a bit during your PCT to make sure you have achieved testicular function.


----------



## MS30

hackskii said:


> I think best time is to pin at night.
> 
> I would also if you could pin a bit more now, and yes you can pin a bit during your PCT to make sure you have achieved testicular function.


 Speaking of testicle function I just got over a virus and didn't have any night time erections and lost some overall performance, both performance and night time erections are improving. I have also noticed that my testicles get softer as they hang lower. Any thoughts on how long it should take for them to stay firm? Another serm like raloxifene perhaps?


----------



## hackskii

If it is improving then do nothing, or keep doing what you are doing.


----------



## MB437

Hi @hacksii, dont want to hijack the post. been an informative read - I was having a discussion with ashmo on my thread i started about my recovery, was wondering if you could weigh in on it

http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/pct/263533-need-help-year.html


----------



## MB437

For anyone else on here who might be able to help along with hackskii. here is a shortened version.

22 male BF = 12-15%

cycled during years of being 19,20,21 - v poor pct throughout and limited recovery throughout cycles however no issues with anything until now.

Last cycle was just over a year ago - simple d bol and test e - **** pct - im talking OTC test boosters- again please dont bash me on this I was a ridiculous kid who didnt know any better was just the culture i was in at the time unfortunately

most recent bloods - 1.5 months ago showed fsh @2.5 and LH @ 2. Free test was at 300 (>200) and total T was at 13.6 (10-36)

recently ran clomid @ 100/50/25 and got morning wood etc on it. however i was still achieving morning wood from memory prior to ever getting bloods or investigating a problem, just lacked real libido and desire- at the time i figured it was due to stress.

Basically im looking to see if i will need hcg to recover here. some say i wont due to the fact it appears my balls are working (i wouldnt call them full and plump but they certainly arent in atrophy, both about regular size from research ive done)- however ive had no bloods done since my little attempt at clomid. I am hoping i wont need hcg cos i know its gona be a nuisance to source here and source legit stuff at that.

Discussed with ashmo and deadcalm on other thread I left. Hoping you guys (Hackskii) espicially can weigh in with some experience in point me in right direction. would love to be able to get away with running aggressive clomid and nolva but not sure if that will do the trick this far past the cycle.


----------



## 19072

So i finished my course. test , anavar and masteron. dropped the var and mast month before test.

Completed the docs protocol and can defo say my testostrone has increased again. (increase in sex drive, morning wood etc)

What my concerns are, i am getting married in end of july and baby making comences in nov. do i stay off until she falls pregnant or do i let vanity take over and do a light test/var cycle before my honeymoon in aug????

@hackskii - im a lil concerned my swimmers may not be strong now that i am cleared of PCT should i go get them checked?


----------



## hackskii

Stay off if you want kids.


----------



## dmore

hackskii , thanks for this.

So much help and great information!

I really need your opinion on this protocol I've been assigned by Scally":

hCG challenge 2,000 IU Q3D (10 shots total)

HMG 75 IU Q3D (10 shots total)

Obtain TotalT after 5-6 injections.

NO SERM at this time.

Start Vit D3 10,000 IU QD

Well I've spent almost all of 2013 cycling and bridging, no PCT.

Then on October I began PowerPCT protocol even extended it up a bit.

Got labs on January 2014, test was mid normal.

From then on was just downhill, by BF went up, despite following strict diet and kept intense training.

January Labs (post PCT):

SDHEA: 245 µg/dL

ESTRADIOL: 14 pg/mL

FREE T: 163 pg/mL

LH: 1.88 mUI/mL

FSH: 1.05 mUI/mL

Decided to do more complete labs in April, results as follows:

SHBG 14.6nmol/L

SDHEA 210 µg/dL

PROLACTIN: 7.91 ng/mL

ESTRADIOL: 14 pg/mL

TOTAL T: 230 ng/dL

FREE T: 65 pg/mL

LH: 1.17 mUI/mL

FSH: 0.88 mUI/mL

25HD: 31.2 ng/mL

-

I've never heard of HCG only protocol. Why do you think he kept the SERMs out at this time?

THanks in advance for your time!


----------



## hackskii

dmore said:


> hackskii , thanks for this.
> 
> So much help and great information!
> 
> I really need your opinion on this protocol I've been assigned by Scally":
> 
> hCG challenge 2,000 IU Q3D (10 shots total)
> 
> HMG 75 IU Q3D (10 shots total)
> 
> Obtain TotalT after 5-6 injections.
> 
> NO SERM at this time.
> 
> Start Vit D3 10,000 IU QD
> 
> Well I've spent almost all of 2013 cycling and bridging, no PCT.
> 
> Then on October I began PowerPCT protocol even extended it up a bit.
> 
> Got labs on January 2014, test was mid normal.
> 
> From then on was just downhill, by BF went up, despite following strict diet and kept intense training.
> 
> January Labs (post PCT):
> 
> SDHEA: 245 µg/dL
> 
> ESTRADIOL: 14 pg/mL
> 
> FREE T: 163 pg/mL
> 
> LH: 1.88 mUI/mL
> 
> FSH: 1.05 mUI/mL
> 
> Decided to do more complete labs in April, results as follows:
> 
> SHBG 14.6nmol/L
> 
> SDHEA 210 µg/dL
> 
> PROLACTIN: 7.91 ng/mL
> 
> ESTRADIOL: 14 pg/mL
> 
> TOTAL T: 230 ng/dL
> 
> FREE T: 65 pg/mL
> 
> LH: 1.17 mUI/mL
> 
> FSH: 0.88 mUI/mL
> 
> 25HD: 31.2 ng/mL
> 
> -
> 
> I've never heard of HCG only protocol. Why do you think he kept the SERMs out at this time?
> 
> THanks in advance for your time!


I am going to need reference ranges for your lab work, different labs have different reference ranges.

The idea of no SERM during the hCG challenge is a bad idea, you could potentially get gyno with that, and nolva will protect the nuts from too much testicular aromatase activity.

Not sure why your numbers went down but it is due to lower levels of gonadotropins.

He does not include SERMS within the protocol because while on hCG LH wont move, in fact it will lower even with the use of SERMS.

SO, I assume he pulled that one out because it was not doing anything.

Once the hCG is gone, the clomid will influence the pituitary and then do its job.


----------



## 19072

hackskii said:


> Stay off if you want kids.


Thanks man. Looks like im gonna have to make the switch to peps/gh then...


----------



## dmore

hackskii said:


> I am going to need reference ranges for your lab work, different labs have different reference ranges.
> 
> The idea of no SERM during the hCG challenge is a bad idea, you could potentially get gyno with that, and nolva will protect the nuts from too much testicular aromatase activity.
> 
> Not sure why your numbers went down but it is due to lower levels of gonadotropins.
> 
> He does not include SERMS within the protocol because while on hCG LH wont move, in fact it will lower even with the use of SERMS.
> 
> SO, I assume he pulled that one out because it was not doing anything.
> 
> Once the hCG is gone, the clomid will influence the pituitary and then do its job.


i hear u.

here are the ranges:

SHBG 14.6nmol/L (13.5 - 71.4 nmol/L)

SDHEA 210 µg/dL (80 - 560 µg/dL)

PROLACTIN: 7.91 ng/mL (2,1 - 17,7ng/mL)

ESTRADIOL: 14 pg/mL (11 - 44 pg/mL)

TOTAL T: 230 ng/dL (166 - 811 ng/dL)

FREE T: 65 pg/mL (34 - 246 pg/mL)

LH: 1.17 mUI/mL (0.57 a 12.07 mUI/mL )

FSH: 0.88 mUI/mL (0.95 a 11.95 mUI/mL)

25HD: 31.2 ng/mL (30.0 a 100.0 ng/mL)


----------



## hackskii

I would take 50mg clomid for a month, or start a bit higher, then taper down after a bit.

I would also use 5000iu or even 1000iu of vitamin D, you are at bottom end of normal, and even that alone will move your numbers.

Could also toss in 3mg per day of boron for a month or so with those I suggested.


----------



## dmore

So you wouldn't recommend HCG? I've done 3 shots already.

Also no Nolva?

Thanks hackskii, really appreciate your help


----------



## hackskii

dmore said:


> So you wouldn't recommend HCG? I've done 3 shots already.
> 
> Also no Nolva?
> 
> Thanks hackskii, really appreciate your help


Ok, I am lost.

Why are you using hCG when you are in range of free T, total T, LH, FSH?

OK boss, you are on your own with this one.

Due to the fact you are doing this your way, I am bowing out and will not waste any more of my time typing for nothing.

Have a nice day.


----------



## dmore

hackskii said:


> Ok, I am lost.
> 
> Why are you using hCG when you are in range of free T, total T, LH, FSH?
> 
> OK boss, you are on your own with this one.
> 
> Due to the fact you are doing this your way, I am bowing out and will not waste any more of my time typing for nothing.
> 
> Have a nice day.


This protocol was assigned to me by mr scaly himself after a private consult. I thought it was unusual so wanted to hear a second opinion since you are really experienced!

Maybe this wasn't clear at first.

Sorry about that.

And regarding the range, my levels dropped from January(post pct) to now I am 27 yo, my levels shouldn't be in the low range should they? We are trying this protocol to see if it will kick back mid normal range I guess.

I will do labs next week and finish this protocol to see how it will respond.


----------



## MS30

I apologize if I was not being clear. I was improving up until I got sick. I recently bumped up the clomid dose back up to 24-25mg from 15-17mg, which has brought back sleeping erections. The problem that I am faced with is my sources. I have two different liquid and tablet suppliers and I'm not sure if the dosing is accurate. I am going to get checked out next month for levels, if I am at 600+ which would be my levels on 50mg of clomid, would that indicate a substantial HTPA improvement if I am taking 25mg at most daily? Thanks


----------



## hackskii

A doctor Eugene Shippen had some impressive results with just 12.5mg per day with clomid.


----------



## MS30

Does it matter what time of day I take it? Or if I should take it the same time every day?


----------



## hackskii

MS30 said:


> Does it matter what time of day I take it? Or if I should take it the same time every day?


Wont matter


----------



## ReRaise

After competing almost 2 weeks ago I had a week completely off everything. I'm now doing a 10ml vial of Test prop at 100mg per day over 10 days and then plan to run this PCT outlined in the OP.

Do I just start the HCG at 2500iu the day after the last jab, and then after the HCG start the Nolva/clomid? My concern was that I'll have no test in me after the first couple of days of starting HCG, and most people seem to be going from Enanthate into HCG allowing for some kind of taper down of test levels whilst on HCG.

As i am on only Test prop will that matter? (Also running HGH now and through PCT/Time off)

@hackskii


----------



## ScouseDrago

hackskii said:


> Stay off if you want kids.


Just to clear up. I am not on any cycle and I haven't as of yet, but your advice to stay off if you want kids (caught my eye  ). Is this just stay away from gear altogether until you have kids or just don't run a cycle whilst trying?


----------



## hackskii

ReRaise said:


> After competing almost 2 weeks ago I had a week completely off everything. I'm now doing a 10ml vial of Test prop at 100mg per day over 10 days and then plan to run this PCT outlined in the OP.
> 
> Do I just start the HCG at 2500iu the day after the last jab, and then after the HCG start the Nolva/clomid? My concern was that I'll have no test in me after the first couple of days of starting HCG, and most people seem to be going from Enanthate into HCG allowing for some kind of taper down of test levels whilst on HCG.
> 
> As i am on only Test prop will that matter? (Also running HGH now and through PCT/Time off)
> 
> @hackskii


Doc changed his protocol to 2000iu E3D.

You can use the hCG while the prop is clearing, it will take about 3 days to clear anyway, so once you jab the hCG you can get some movement with your T levels.

Make sure you run a SERM while using that though, gyno is pretty common with those doses.



ScouseDrago said:


> Just to clear up. I am not on any cycle and I haven't as of yet, but your advice to stay off if you want kids (caught my eye  ). Is this just stay away from gear altogether until you have kids or just don't run a cycle whilst trying?


If you want kids, then you may want to stay off being on, some men become infertile while on, and can take quite some time to get back to being fertile again.


----------



## nicj1990

@hackskii

I tried to send you a private message, but was unsure whether it went through.

I have been self adminitrating a TRT dose of 150mg Test-E for the past 6 months, after being on cycle for 20 weeks using 600mg per week.

When i was on cycle i used HCG, 2x500iu shots each week. I ran a correct PCT and recovered fine.

Several months later i decided to go commit to blast and cruising without the use of HCG, knowing full well that i would get testicular atrophy.

I would like to fully come off the TRT dose and fully recover, is this protocol the best for me?

I would appreciate as much advice as you can give me

Nick


----------



## nicj1990

Bump


----------



## hackskii

Well, how long have you been on a maintenance dose?


----------



## nicj1990

hackskii said:


> Well, how long have you been on a maintenance dose?


at least 6 months, thats straight off 20 weeks of 600mg Test E a week


----------



## hackskii

nicj1990 said:


> at least 6 months, thats straight off 20 weeks of 600mg Test E a week


Well, the doc has changed his protocol some.

But, I would do 2000iu shots every 3 days and use 20mg nolva.

Once you have achieved testicular function by blood work, drop the hCG and continue with 20mg nolva ED, and then add 100mg clomid for 3 weeks, then run another 2 weeks at 50mg, you can actually drop the dose even lower as time goes on.


----------



## nicj1990

hackskii said:


> Well, the doc has changed his protocol some.
> 
> But, I would do 2000iu shots every 3 days and use 20mg nolva.
> 
> Once you have achieved testicular function by blood work, drop the hCG and continue with 20mg nolva ED, and then add 100mg clomid for 3 weeks, then run another 2 weeks at 50mg, you can actually drop the dose even lower as time goes on.


Thanks for the advice, how soon should I start this after my last jab? My last jab was a week ago of 150mg test e.


----------



## nicj1990

nicj1990 said:


> Thanks for the advice, how soon should I start this after my last jab? My last jab was a week ago of 150mg test e.


??


----------



## hackskii

nicj1990 said:


> Thanks for the advice, how soon should I start this after my last jab? My last jab was a week ago of 150mg test e.


Well, if you are going to run the hCG you probably can start now, 150mg of test E will take about 9 days or so to get to normal, to below normal levels of testosterone.


----------



## thenewguy1

I am 25 years old and shutdown from prior steroid cycles and being very dumb. I am just confused because i feel absolutely fine, i have sex all the time and i get morning wood alot. I dont think i have one symptom of low T but yet my levels are extremely low (I posted blood work below). I never really did a good PCT and i have taken tren and deca, not in the same cycle. I was working with an endocrinologist and i recently got a brain MRI and she said everything on the mri was normal, she gave me two options either i can wait and hope my HPTA comes back on its own or she said i can get on TRT which i thought was pretty messed up that she even gave me that option, that should be LAST RESORT. So i am at a loss right now, should i be worried about having such low levels? Again i feel amazing i work 50 hours a week and still make it to the gym 4 times a week. My plan as of right now is this, Wait another month or so and get more blood work if my levels are going up then i will just wait and let them come back on their own, but if they are not going up then i will EITHER do some sort of pct or go to mass general hospital where they have a good endocrinology unit. I would really appreciate any advice, also is there any vitamins i can take to give my body some help getting my hormone levels back up?

Blood work taken 5/15:

Total Test - 129 ng/dL normal 250-100

Free Test - 12.6 pg/mL normal 35-155

LH - .7 mIU/mL normal 1.5-9.3

FSH - .9 mIU/mL normal 1.4-18.1

prolactin - 8.2 ng/mL normal 2.8-29.2


----------



## hackskii

I would try and move those LH, and FSH numbers, sure looks like the nuts are working but the pituitary is a bit sluggish.

So, I would use 20mg of nolva ED for 6 weeks, 100mg clomid ED for 2 weeks, then drop that to 50mg for another 2 weeks, then a week of 25mg EOD.

That should move your numbers up, and T levels too.

You could do nothing and wait, but if you still can have sex then no big issue here.

Vitamin D is very important here too, 5000iu ED forever, I love the stuff myself.


----------



## thenewguy1

Is it possible that clomid/nolva could further hurt me? I am trying to cycle again in the future so i want to recover as quickly as possible but i want to do so safely as possible. So you recommend starting the clomid/nolva along with vitamin D3? What about hcg? I am trying to decide weather to just wait it out or run the clomid/nolva.


----------



## hackskii

thenewguy1 said:


> Is it possible that clomid/nolva could further hurt me? I am trying to cycle again in the future so i want to recover as quickly as possible but i want to do so safely as possible. So you recommend starting the clomid/nolva along with vitamin D3? What about hcg? I am trying to decide weather to just wait it out or run the clomid/nolva.


How do you feel since your blood work over a month ago?

Any symptoms improve?


----------



## thenewguy1

I have been getting allot more morning wood and hornier than i was a couple months ago but that's about it. Nothing major, like i said i really don't have any symptoms of low T. I feel great but i want to get my Test levels back up as quickly as possible.


----------



## thenewguy1

SO even though i don't have any symptoms of low testosterone do you think its a good idea to start clomid/nolva?


----------



## hackskii

thenewguy1 said:


> SO even though i don't have any symptoms of low testosterone do you think its a good idea to start clomid/nolva?


Well, beings that you put it that way, do nothing, but do take 5000iu vitamin D every day.


----------



## loon111

Hi Hackskii can i have a conversation with you in Yahoo Messenger ( since i am new member here i cannot PM )


----------



## hackskii

loon111 said:


> Hi Hackskii can i have a conversation with you in Yahoo Messenger ( since i am new member here i cannot PM )


I saw you on messenger and did not know who that was.


----------



## loon111

I just went online now, hope you have time to chat. I am there, thank you


----------



## Sportbilly

On the basis that we share information and experiences and hopefully they help others here goes:

For the past 6 months I've been experiencing shutdown, sleeping with a hard-on / morning wood most of the time, just my junk fails to work at the most inappropriate times, it's frustrating, I need to resolve the problem and when cialis and the likes don't work you know you're 'ked.

Bloods from 3 months ago:

Testosterone >52.0 nmol/l (range 9.9 -27.8)

Estradiol 1112 pmol/l (range28 - 156)

FSH <0.1 mIU/ml (range 1.5 - 12.4)

LH <0.1 mIU/ml (range 1.7 - 8.6)

The Endocrinologist suggested I stop everything with immediate effect and allow nature to correct everything. Right, bin that Endocrinologist. BTW everything else was fine, A+ in fact.

Today's bloods:

Testosterone 4.06 ng/ml (range 2.8 - 8.0)

FSH 0.1 iu/l

LH 0.1 iu/l

Estradiol 72.6 pg/ml

Different Endocrinologist (more experienced, highly regarded chap favoured by the local gym rats). He put me on Letrozole when he saw previous bloods which have brought my Estradiol down which was just as well as I had more estrogen than a ladyboy's handbag. He also encouraged me to use GnRH but was very sceptical re: Triptorelin (which I've used twice before with no effect).

He also suggested that using hcg and hmg would only have an temporary effect and may be counterproductive to my aim to restore my FSH and LH levels which he advises can only occur naturally and by driving down my estrogen levels. He also suggested that this may take quite some time but patience is not my biggest virtue.

On this occasion I will be pinning GnRH 3 times daily, keep up with the Letrozole for another couple of weeks and see how I get on. If necessary I'll use hcg and hmg on a 'as needs' basis with possibly nolva/ clomid too. Though I am also considering hitting the clomid and nolva now as I really don't want to wait for that undetermined length of time

My Endocrinologist also advised that it's okay to continue with modest levels of Test (250mg every 2 weeks) and he wasn't remotely concerned about me using Anavar (50mg on workout days). I'll also drop my HGH to 2 iu / day based on his advice.

Other remarks:

Letro not as bad as its press makes it out to be.

pge-1 has saved the day (& night) on many occasions recently.

Hacks I'd appreciate any comments / input re: protocol.


----------



## hackskii

I personally think you are going about this from the wrong angle and here is why:

Today's bloods:

Testosterone 4.06 ng/ml (range 2.8 - 8.0) *In range*

FSH 0.1 iu/l *Out of range*

LH 0.1 iu/l *Out of range*

Estradiol 72.6 pg/ml *In Range*

So lets look at this logically for a minute.

Lowest detectable amount of LH, and FSH gonadotropins, yet testosterone and estrogen are in range.

This suggests that you do not need hMG, or hCG as the nuts are firing within range yet gonadotropins are well low and out of range.

What is the fix?

SERMS, this will make GnRH more sensitive at the pituitary and spike your LH, and FSH.

100mg of clomid per day after 5 to 7 days doubles LH output, and can increase FSH by 20% to 50%.

Pretty cool, move your LH and have a bigger response from the nuts.

100mg per day for 2 weeks of clomid, then taper that to 50mg for another 3 weeks or so, then half that for another few weeks.

20mg nolva for a couple of months with the clomid and you should be good to go in no time.

Also, take 5000iu vitamin D per day as well and do this forever.

Using hCG now or anything else puts the gonadotropins at risk, the issue is not the nuts, but the pituitary, and that switch needs to be turned on, not the nuts, they are in range already.


----------



## Sustanation

Hi @hackskii

I have been on 750mg of sustanon for the last 6 months, was on Dianabol for the first month, and for the last 8 weeks on 50mg of anavar, wanting to come off for the rest of the year.

I was going to do

days 1-16 2000ius HCG EOD

Days 1-30 50mg Clomid

Days 1-45 20mg Nolvadex

Days 1-45 5000ius Vitamin d and 5 grams d'aspartic acid.

When should I Commence PCT if my last shot was going to be 500mg of sus tonight.


----------



## hackskii

Sustanation said:


> Hi @hackskii
> 
> I have been on 750mg of sustanon for the last 6 months, was on Dianabol for the first month, and for the last 8 weeks on 50mg of anavar, wanting to come off for the rest of the year.
> 
> I was going to do
> 
> days 1-16 2000ius HCG EOD
> 
> Days 1-30 50mg Clomid
> 
> Days 1-45 20mg Nolvadex
> 
> Days 1-45 5000ius Vitamin d and 5 grams d'aspartic acid.
> 
> When should I Commence PCT if my last shot was going to be 500mg of sus tonight.


A month from last shot.

But, run 20mg nolva while the sust clears, and 2000iu hCG E3D till you start the clomid at 100mg per day for 2 weeks (30 days from last sust shot), then you can run 50mg for another few weeks, leave the nolva at 20mg a week past the last clomid tab.

Drop the DAA


----------



## Sustanation

hackskii said:


> A month from last shot.
> 
> But, run 20mg nolva while the sust clears, and 2000iu hCG E3D till you start the clomid at 100mg per day for 2 weeks (30 days from last sust shot), then you can run 50mg for another few weeks, leave the nolva at 20mg a week past the last clomid tab.
> 
> Drop the DAA


Ok will drop the dmaa

So after my last shot do 20mg of nolvadex ed and 2000iu eod until day 30 then do clomid for 2 weeks.

Confused.com


----------



## hackskii

Sustanation said:


> Ok will drop the dmaa
> 
> So after my last shot do 20mg of nolvadex ed and 2000iu eod until day 30 then do clomid for 2 weeks.
> 
> Confused.com


Where in my post to you did it say EOD?

I said every third day E3D, that will take you about a month to do 2000iu every 3 days.

30 days actually till the hCG is out of your system, or 28 days till your last 2000iu shot and 3 days for it to stop stimulating leydig cells to product testosterone.

So, 30 days to start the SERMS would be perfect.

Make sure you mix with bac water so it does not go bad while using.


----------



## MS30

hackskii said:


> Wont matter


Hello Hacksii, I had some blood work done recently, at the time I was taking 10.5mg of clomid daily for two weeks. I am now completely off it, but I am taking 100mg of GHRP-2 three times a day, which may increase testosterone. Anyways here are the results.

A1C 5.1

Estrogen 53 (40-115)

Cortisol 16.6 (4.4-22)

SHGB 15.6 (16.5-55.9)

CHOLESTEROL 139 (0-200)

TRIGLYC 47 (30-150)

PROLACTIN 11.2 (2.5-17.4)

ESTRIDOL 9.2 (7.6-42.6)

DHGA 402 (31-701)

TESTOST 626 (348-1197)

FREE TEST 24.85 (5-21)

TSH 1.31 (0.4-4.0)

FSH 9.5 (

LH 13.6

If you need them I will post prior results. I know off hand that they are better than the last one, and that the cpap is helping since I have seen much better results from GHRP-2. I was just wondering if I should drop the GHRP-2? Thank you.


----------



## DutchTony

MS30 said:


> Hello Hacksii, I had some blood work done recently, at the time I was taking 10.5mg of clomid daily for two weeks. I am now completely off it, but I am taking 100mg of GHRP-2 three times a day, which may increase testosterone. Anyways here are the results.
> 
> A1C 5.1
> 
> Estrogen 53 (40-115)
> 
> Cortisol 16.6 (4.4-22)
> 
> SHGB 15.6 (16.5-55.9)
> 
> CHOLESTEROL 139 (0-200)
> 
> TRIGLYC 47 (30-150)
> 
> PROLACTIN 11.2 (2.5-17.4)
> 
> ESTRIDOL 9.2 (7.6-42.6)
> 
> DHGA 402 (31-701)
> 
> TESTOST 626 (348-1197)
> 
> FREE TEST 24.85 (5-21)
> 
> TSH 1.31 (0.4-4.0)
> 
> FSH 9.5 (
> 
> LH 13.6


I realise this isn't for me, but you haven't asked a question.....


----------



## MS30

DutchTony said:


> I realise this isn't for me, but you haven't asked a question.....


This is just an update to a few previous posts. These are the latest results after long protocol.


----------



## NJMuscle

hello @hackskii

I ran Test Cyp Weeks 1-20

Triumphalis (prohormone) 45mg 1-4

Epistane @ 30mg 19-22

Oral MENT @ 25mg-45mg 19-22

I really screwed up big time by not blasting HCG at the end using your protocol. I realize that now and I'll never run gear without it.

Instead i've been using Clomid @ 75mg/day & Tamox @ 20mg/day for the past 3 weeks.

Along with a Natty Test booster.

Also threw some Vitamin D in there.

It's been a month and half since my last pin.

Basically, the boys still aren't at full size, my libido is pretty low, my energy is low, aggression is low, I feel flat, and unmotivated.

The good news is that I can still get hard no problem. I'm getting bloodwork next weekend to see where everything is at.

What are my options from here if my T, FSH, LH, etc are out of range? Use SERMS for an additional 3 weeks? Is hCG not an option at this point?


----------



## hackskii

Lets wait for the blood to come back, before we go ahead with anything else.


----------



## Gurlaash

Original post is too old but still a good read. Would like to know if anyone tried this protocol with a basic cycle. eg TestE for 12 and dbol for 6 weeks. ???

I am thinking 750 mg TestE a week and Dbol 30 mg a day for 6 weeks.

HPTA gonna shut down I know. So should I be doing 2500iu EOD of total 8 shots after 12 weeks or can I do 1000iu every week with this basic cycle ??

Thanks.


----------



## hackskii

Or, run hCG during the cycle at 500iu twice a week and not have to worry about using it post cycle.


----------



## Gurlaash

Ok good to know I could do that.

So 500iu X 2 per week throughout whole 12 weeks and 0.5 mg Adex ED also ON the cycle for 12 weeks.

Then 14 days break after the last pin of Test and on day 15th back in the game with 40 mg Nolva and 100 mg Clomid for 45 days and WITHOUT hcg. Right ??


----------



## hackskii

Well, run the hCG while the gear clears.

Adex start at .5mg twice a week and be on the look out for estrogenic sides, if they manafest, then go EOD on the.5 adex.

20mg is fine with nolva, 100mg for clomid per day, run that 3 weeks clomid, 4 weeks nolva.

You can run the clomid a week or two longer at 50mg and run the nolva a week or so longer than the clomid.


----------



## arnold84

Dhea in pct guys? Yes no?


----------



## hackskii

arnold84 said:


> Dhea in pct guys? Yes no?


Well, if guys are on long then id say yes, but for just the sake of it, probably wont need it.


----------



## richyb1974

Were you happy with the clonid results? Did you feel ancy? I have some but have been a bit scared to take it....


----------



## Fitness4Life

@hackskii I just pinned my final Test E last night as part of a lean gain and I am quite pleased with the results (yay!). I have HcG, Clom and Nolva on board and will start all 3 of those products in 14 days and hoping of course like anyone else to keep 90%+ of the gains.

My question is: To keep the gains (or as many as possible) I will need to still eat the amount I am eating more or less and train hard correct? But also I heard that if I used Clen (which I have a lot spare - can use way down the line again) I can continue to eat a lot without risking putting on fat, just to keep those gains while my body stabilizes during PCT. Would you consider this an ok thing to do during the PCT (2w on 2w off)? I am just going to be plowing away in the gym trying to put on some more mass naturally over the next 5 months but of course trying to keep the bf% in the early teens (or max mid teens).


----------



## micro_trauma

very interesting


----------



## hackskii

Fitness4Life said:


> @hackskii I just pinned my final Test E last night as part of a lean gain and I am quite pleased with the results (yay!). I have HcG, Clom and Nolva on board and will start all 3 of those products in 14 days and hoping of course like anyone else to keep 90%+ of the gains.
> 
> My question is: To keep the gains (or as many as possible) I will need to still eat the amount I am eating more or less and train hard correct? But also I heard that if I used Clen (which I have a lot spare - can use way down the line again) I can continue to eat a lot without risking putting on fat, just to keep those gains while my body stabilizes during PCT. Would you consider this an ok thing to do during the PCT (2w on 2w off)? I am just going to be plowing away in the gym trying to put on some more mass naturally over the next 5 months but of course trying to keep the bf% in the early teens (or max mid teens).


Nah, I would not use clen post cycle myself, adrenals take a beating on cycle and adding in stimulants really in my opinion is probably not the best thing to do.

It may allow you to train harder on cardio to burn more cals.


----------



## Fitness4Life

hackskii said:


> Nah, I would not use clen post cycle myself, adrenals take a beating on cycle and adding in stimulants really in my opinion is probably not the best thing to do.
> 
> It may allow you to train harder on cardio to burn more cals.


So maybe after PCT. Ah I'll see how it goes anyway  Thanks for the reply!!


----------



## nosion

hi. I have been on for 10 months. Dosage around 500mg test every week. 3 months with tren 400mg thrown im there. 1000ui hcg every week. Testicles normal size. Last shot was 750mg test e 16 days ago. I have done 2500 ui of hcg eod for 3 shots with 20mg Nolvadex. How would you approach this next hackskii ? Thanks for answers.


----------



## MS30

Hey Hacksii, my clomid protocol was working, but even with apnea treatment my levels are back down below 250 for total testosterone. Any suggestions on protocol will be appreciated. Should I try triptorelin? Clomid and Nolva? Or a combination? Here are my numbers:

Test Name: ALBUMIN

Result: 4.0

Units: g/dl

Reference Range: (3.4-4.5)

Test Name: THYROTROPIN

Result: 1.47

Units: uIU/ml

Reference Range: (0.4-4.0)

Test Name: FOLLITROPIN

Result: 3.1

Units: mIU/ml

Reference Range:

Interpretation: FSH reference ranges: AS OF 4/18/13

Male: 0.7- 10.8 mIU/mL

Test Name: LUTROPIN

Result: 2.6

Units: mIU/mL

Reference Range:

Interpretation: LH REFERENCES RANGES: AS OF 4/18/13

Male: 1.2- 10.6 mIU/mL

Test Name: PROLACTIN

Result: 20.80 High

Units: ng/ml

Reference Range: (2.5-17.4)

Test Name: TESTOSTERONE

Result: 241 Low

Units: ng/dL

Reference Range: (348-1197)

Test Name: TESTOSTERONE.FREE

Result: 10.84

Units: ng/dL

Reference Range: (5.00-21.00)

Test Name: TESTOSTERONE.FREE/TESTOSTERONE.TOTAL

Result: 4.50 High

Units: %

Reference Range: (1.50-4.20)

Test Name: ESTRADIOL

Result: 10.7

Units: pg/mL

Reference Range: (7.6-42.6)


----------



## hackskii

nosion said:


> hi. I have been on for 10 months. Dosage around 500mg test every week. 3 months with tren 400mg thrown im there. 1000ui hcg every week. Testicles normal size. Last shot was 750mg test e 16 days ago. I have done 2500 ui of hcg eod for 3 shots with 20mg Nolvadex. How would you approach this next hackskii ? Thanks for answers.


10 month cycles are kind of hard on ya man.

I would keep using some hCG while the 750mg test E clears, probably take more than 5 weeks time to clear, after that just use the SERMS.



MS30 said:


> Hey Hacksii, my clomid protocol was working, but even with apnea treatment my levels are back down below 250 for total testosterone. Any suggestions on protocol will be appreciated. Should I try triptorelin? Clomid and Nolva? Or a combination? Here are my numbers:
> 
> Test Name: ALBUMIN
> 
> Result: 4.0
> 
> Units: g/dl
> 
> Reference Range: (3.4-4.5)
> 
> Test Name: THYROTROPIN
> 
> Result: 1.47
> 
> Units: uIU/ml
> 
> Reference Range: (0.4-4.0)
> 
> Test Name: FOLLITROPIN
> 
> Result: 3.1
> 
> Units: mIU/ml
> 
> Reference Range:
> 
> Interpretation: FSH reference ranges: AS OF 4/18/13
> 
> Male: 0.7- 10.8 mIU/mL
> 
> Test Name: LUTROPIN
> 
> Result: 2.6
> 
> Units: mIU/mL
> 
> Reference Range:
> 
> Interpretation: LH REFERENCES RANGES: AS OF 4/18/13
> 
> Male: 1.2- 10.6 mIU/mL
> 
> Test Name: PROLACTIN
> 
> Result: 20.80 High
> 
> Units: ng/ml
> 
> Reference Range: (2.5-17.4)
> 
> Test Name: TESTOSTERONE
> 
> Result: 241 Low
> 
> Units: ng/dL
> 
> Reference Range: (348-1197)
> 
> Test Name: TESTOSTERONE.FREE
> 
> Result: 10.84
> 
> Units: ng/dL
> 
> Reference Range: (5.00-21.00)
> 
> Test Name: TESTOSTERONE.FREE/TESTOSTERONE.TOTAL
> 
> Result: 4.50 High
> 
> Units: %
> 
> Reference Range: (1.50-4.20)
> 
> Test Name: ESTRADIOL
> 
> Result: 10.7
> 
> Units: pg/mL
> 
> Reference Range: (7.6-42.6)


I would consider some dostinex to lower your prolactin some, cabaser will work as well same but different name.

Also some Vitamin D with the cabaser.


----------



## MS30

hackskii said:


> 10 month cycles are kind of hard on ya man.
> 
> I would keep using some hCG while the 750mg test E clears, probably take more than 5 weeks time to clear, after that just use the SERMS.
> 
> I would consider some dostinex to lower your prolactin some, cabaser will work as well same but different name.
> 
> Also some Vitamin D with the cabaser.


I didn't use any TEST E, just wanted to make sure that there is no confusion. Would taking GHRP-2 account for the Prolactin increase? I will try some CABER to lower prolactin. How long should I take Cabergoline? Right now I am taking L-Dopa, hoping that it helps. Should I start using SERMS again? I also have a new cpap mask to try out. Thank you again for your advice.


----------



## JustinJJ

hackskii said:


> 10 month cycles are kind of hard on ya man.
> 
> I would keep using some hCG while the 750mg test E clears, probably take more than 5 weeks time to clear, after that just use the SERMS.
> 
> I would consider some dostinex to lower your prolactin some, cabaser will work as well same but different name.
> 
> Also some Vitamin D with the cabaser.


 @hackskii

Thank you for great input, I currently on a cycle Wk4 Day23, and I really need your wise advise. This week I am start using HCG 300iu twice a week.

Following is my plan

Wk1-10 TestProp100mg/TrenA100mg/Mast150mg EOD

WK11 Test Prop100mg EOD

WK4-11 HCG300IU twice a week

WK12 HCG 1500IU*4 shots/EOD(last Test Prop pin after 3 days )

WK13 Nolva100mg/Clomid40mg

WK14 Nolav50mg/Clomid20mg

WK15 Nolav50mg/Clomid20mg

WK16 Nolav50mg/Clomid20mg

Plan to do HCG 3000IU two shot(or 1500IU 4 shots) when last pin 3 days later,

I will run clomid and Nolva when HCG all injected.

Can you please let me know how you think this plan? thanks you HACK!


----------



## hackskii

MS30 said:


> I didn't use any TEST E, just wanted to make sure that there is no confusion. Would taking GHRP-2 account for the Prolactin increase? I will try some CABER to lower prolactin. How long should I take Cabergoline? Right now I am taking L-Dopa, hoping that it helps. Should I start using SERMS again? I also have a new cpap mask to try out. Thank you again for your advice.


It could very well be the GHRP.

I would hold off on the SERMS for now, try the new mask on and see how you get along.


----------



## MS30

hackskii said:


> It could very well be the GHRP.
> 
> I would hold off on the SERMS for now, try the new mask on and see how you get along.


Crap! I just took 80mg of Torem. I figured I would try something different, and I was feeling a crash coming on. Still having problems with the new mask, I will call the doc soon. My free test was higher than previous levels (4.5) which has given me harder erections that I have not had in a while, and levels lasted a bit longer, even more so than when I was taking ghrp-2 before. Should I CUT GHRP-2? Or just add vitamin B6? My PROLACTIN has always been a bit high unless I was taking SERMS. Thanks again.


----------



## hackskii

Tore is fine.

Cabaser works well for inhibiting prolactin, low dose to start.


----------



## MS30

hackskii said:


> Tore is fine.
> 
> Cabaser works well for inhibiting prolactin, low dose to start.


Ok, I will continue with TOREM and GHRP-2. TOREM will be at 100mg today and then taper off to 30mg ED. I will start the CABER at .25mg E4D. Thank you.


----------



## JustinJJ

@hackskii

Thank you for great input, I currently on a cycle Wk4 Day23, and I really need your wise advise. This week I am start using HCG 300iu twice a week.

Following is my plan

Wk1-10 TestProp100mg/TrenA100mg/Mast150mg EOD

WK11 Test Prop100mg EOD

WK4-11 HCG300IU twice a week

WK12 HCG 1500IU*4 shots/EOD(last Test Prop pin after 3 days )

WK13 Nolva100mg/Clomid40mg

WK14 Nolav50mg/Clomid20mg

WK15 Nolav50mg/Clomid20mg

WK16 Nolav50mg/Clomid20mg

Plan to do HCG 3000IU two shot(or 1500IU 4 shots) when last pin 3 days later,

I will run clomid and Nolva when HCG all injected.

Can you please let me know how you think this plan? thanks you HACK!


----------



## JustinJJ

hackskii said:


> It could very well be the GHRP.
> 
> I would hold off on the SERMS for now, try the new mask on and see how you get along.


Can I have your advice as well? thanks!


----------



## hackskii

JustinJJ said:


> @hackskii
> 
> Thank you for great input, I currently on a cycle Wk4 Day23, and I really need your wise advise. This week I am start using HCG 300iu twice a week.
> 
> Following is my plan
> 
> Wk1-10 TestProp100mg/TrenA100mg/Mast150mg EOD
> 
> WK11 Test Prop100mg EOD
> 
> WK4-11 HCG300IU twice a week
> 
> WK12 HCG 1500IU*4 shots/EOD(last Test Prop pin after 3 days )
> 
> WK13 Nolva100mg/Clomid40mg
> 
> WK14 Nolav50mg/Clomid20mg
> 
> WK15 Nolav50mg/Clomid20mg
> 
> WK16 Nolav50mg/Clomid20mg
> 
> Plan to do HCG 3000IU two shot(or 1500IU 4 shots) when last pin 3 days later,
> 
> I will run clomid and Nolva when HCG all injected.
> 
> Can you please let me know how you think this plan? thanks you HACK!


Just run the hCG during, if you keep testicular function then no need to run longer.

also, the clomid is 100mg and the nolva is 20mg max.

You can run the clomid for 3 weeks at 100mg then another 1 to 2 weeks at 50mg

You can run the nolva for 4 to 6 weeks.


----------



## JustinJJ

hackskii said:


> Just run the hCG during, if you keep testicular function then no need to run longer.
> 
> also, the clomid is 100mg and the nolva is 20mg max.
> 
> You can run the clomid for 3 weeks at 100mg then another 1 to 2 weeks at 50mg
> 
> You can run the nolva for 4 to 6 weeks.


Thanks for great input! Because some reason, I just have HCG in hand and plan to do 300iu twice a week from WK5,

so you said,"Only do HCG during cycle until end of 11WK, then wait for 3-5days, do clomid and Nolva, thats all I need" ?

its that the meaning from you, sorry for language issue and barrier. Again, so I dont have to 1500iu EOD after 11wk until end

of 12WK?


----------



## micros

Hi,

I read about the above protocol in "Anabolics 2009" book,

It was the only tested PCT protocol, as they said in the book.

Added to the broscience variant of HCG during cycle to avoid testicles atrophy,

by that there is the possibility that the HCG phase could be skipped.

Now, given the fact I did not have the time to go through the over 90s pages

topic, I'm asking the brief question about the proofs, boold tests related proofs

that this protocol, at the end of the 45 days bring the T production back to normal

for a mid-duration (12-16 weeks) mid-suppressive (no nandro inside) cycle

or it takes another adjustmen time to completely go back to normal?

Cheers and Thanks


----------



## hackskii

JustinJJ said:


> Thanks for great input! Because some reason, I just have HCG in hand and plan to do 300iu twice a week from WK5,
> 
> so you said,"Only do HCG during cycle until end of 11WK, then wait for 3-5days, do clomid and Nolva, thats all I need" ?
> 
> its that the meaning from you, sorry for language issue and barrier. Again, so I dont have to 1500iu EOD after 11wk until end
> 
> of 12WK?


Well, the 300iu twice a week is a bit light for testicular function.

You could do 500iu every 3 days for the first month, then back off to 500iu twice a week.

300iu is a bit weak.



micros said:


> Hi,
> 
> I read about the above protocol in "Anabolics 2009" book,
> 
> It was the only tested PCT protocol, as they said in the book.
> 
> Added to the broscience variant of HCG during cycle to avoid testicles atrophy,
> 
> by that there is the possibility that the HCG phase could be skipped.
> 
> Now, given the fact I did not have the time to go through the over 90s pages
> 
> topic, I'm asking the brief question about the proofs, boold tests related proofs
> 
> that this protocol, at the end of the 45 days bring the T production back to normal
> 
> for a mid-duration (12-16 weeks) mid-suppressive (no nandro inside) cycle
> 
> or it takes another adjustmen time to completely go back to normal?
> 
> Cheers and Thanks


If hCG is used during at 500iu twice a week, no need to keep the hCG in the PCT.

You can use it during clearance times of the gear before you start the SERMS.

As for bloods if no hCG was done, here is the deal.

You use the hCG at 2000iu every 3 days, and after 3 weeks you get bloods.

If testosterone is not in range continue with hCG, if in range then drop the hCG and continue with the SERMS.

I do not agree with using clomid with hCG as LH will continue to drop while on hCG regardless of anything being used.


----------



## mluke

Nice. Subd


----------



## MS30

hackskii said:


> Tore is fine.
> 
> Cabaser works well for inhibiting prolactin, low dose to start.


I looked into it and my cpap problems stem from my body getting used to 4 to 6 hours of real sleep. Apparently it will take another 12 weeks or so for my body to want a full 8hrs on cpap. In the mean time I will take Torem and caber. I will be using Caber at .5mg every 3 to 4 days. I am wondering how long should I take it? 6 weeks? Or more?


----------



## hackskii

Not sure, may take some time to inhibit prolactin.


----------



## MS30

hackskii said:


> Not sure, may take some time to inhibit prolactin.


I have also been taking 5 to 10mg of melatonin every night. I just found out that it can affect hpta, so I will be stopping that. I have been using that dose for a few months now. I tried some over the counter sleeping pills the last two nights, the main ingredient in Benadryl, and that is no good either, one night 9 hours sleep good wood, next day 5hrs weak wood. How long should it be before the stuff clears my system? On the plus side libido is up, and overall function is better than it was before cpap.


----------



## hackskii

MS30 said:


> I have also been taking 5 to 10mg of melatonin every night. I just found out that it can affect hpta, so I will be stopping that. I have been using that dose for a few months now. I tried some over the counter sleeping pills the last two nights, the main ingredient in Benadryl, and that is no good either, one night 9 hours sleep good wood, next day 5hrs weak wood. How long should it be before the stuff clears my system? On the plus side libido is up, and overall function is better than it was before cpap.


Not heard that melatonin can affect HPTA, and due to deeper sleep I bet it helps that.

Who said it inhibited the HPTA?


----------



## MS30

hackskii said:


> Not heard that melatonin can affect HPTA, and due to deeper sleep I bet it helps that.
> 
> Who said it inhibited the HPTA?


Thanks for the quick reply, it looks like the info was based on a rodent study and T levels were not affected negatively after chronic use. That being said, what about taking Diphenhydramine? The first night I took 16mgs of melatonin (3mg does not cut it) and 75mg of Diphenhydramine. I almost slept 10hrs, but felt groggy afterwards. The next night took 10mgs of melatonin and 50mgs of Diphenhydramine, and woke up after about 5 hours or so. Will taking higher doses have any negative affect on recovery? It is also frustrating that I cannot get good before and after levels of cpap treatment. It appears that some guys T leves are not that affected by apnea, and others are, whether or not their level is severe. I am looking into using Triptorelin as well, I am looking for a study where a guy used 600mcg over the course of 3 days (100mcg typical dose) and made a full recovery. Of course, I am going to wait until I am consistently sleeping 8hours on cpap without waking up before going that route. I appreciate the help.


----------



## hackskii

1 study on trip, and nobody has yet to rave about it, in fact I know two endo docs that say it is pretty worthless.

3mg would be the starting dose, no more than 6mg would really be needed with melatonin, that stuff kind of gives me a hang over.

Bad sleep is just bad period, more factors than just test levels, negative impact on cortisol as well, less GH release, etc.


----------



## MS30

hackskii said:


> 1 study on trip, and nobody has yet to rave about it, in fact I know two endo docs that say it is pretty worthless.
> 
> 3mg would be the starting dose, no more than 6mg would really be needed with melatonin, that stuff kind of gives me a hang over.
> 
> Bad sleep is just bad period, more factors than just test levels, negative impact on cortisol as well, less GH release, etc.


I was reading that too much melatonin can act as a stimulant. I tried some Valerian root last night and I slept really well, over 8 hours. I am thinking about running some more blood work in a few months and see where my levels are. I had solid wood this morning for a few min, which indicates that at least free testosterone is coming back, I think it is mostly due to sleep, but GHRP-2 is known for bumping up free T as well. My only concern is my total testosterone which last time was below 250ng. Most studies on sleep apnea state that there is only a 10-20% increase in total Test after cpap has been utilized. I plan on getting more blood work done in a few months to see where my levels are at, in the meantime I will be taking Torem until I run out in a few weeks, then back to 12.5mg of Clomid and stop for 6 weeks before bloodwork. I was wondering if it would help my body to restart if I took SERMS EOD? I am considering TRT if I cannot get my Test to a decent level by this time next year. Any thoughts? Like getting more Torem and doing that for a few months and see if the Testes become more sensitive to LH? Or if levels tank without SERMS to just use low dose Clomid instead? Thank you for your insight.


----------



## hackskii

If you are getting morning wood, you probably are not too far off the mark.

If you can keep and maintain an erection, and have sex, it is very likely you are just fine.

5-HTP helps relax as well, valarian root is nice too, the tincture tastes like dog crap though.

Melatonin to my knowledge is the hormone that gets released when the sun goes down.

It is a anti-cancer hormone and the only hormone that is anti-cancer, also when taken before the gym you get a higher GH output.

There is speculation that if taken at night before bed a higher GH release may be possible due to more REM sleep.


----------



## MS30

hackskii said:


> If you are getting morning wood, you probably are not too far off the mark.
> 
> If you can keep and maintain an erection, and have sex, it is very likely you are just fine.
> 
> 5-HTP helps relax as well, valarian root is nice too, the tincture tastes like dog crap though.
> 
> Melatonin to my knowledge is the hormone that gets released when the sun goes down.
> 
> It is a anti-cancer hormone and the only hormone that is anti-cancer, also when taken before the gym you get a higher GH output.
> 
> There is speculation that if taken at night before bed a higher GH release may be possible due to more REM sleep.


Thank you for the info. My morning erections were better on SERMS, but I'm pretty sure sleep has improved them. My only question is if free T is good, then why is my total so low? How would suggest I taper off? Torem first, then GHRP-2? GHRP first? I'm assuming I should wait 8 weeks before determining if apnea treatment is enough? BTW I am still having a bit of trouble with sleep, can I use 5 htp with vitamin B6? I have heard the combo can cause a bad reaction. Thanks again.


----------



## hackskii

If they are in range that might be where they are, if that is the case then no problems.


----------



## MS30

hackskii said:


> If they are in range that might be where they are, if that is the case then no problems.


I have been having problems sleeping still, waking up after 4 hours, then sleeping another two hours waking up each hour. I had some dizziness and a low hotflash feeling that could be due to caber, and no morning erections since taking caber. Libidio is up and I can get longer erections, should I cut the dose? Or just come off of it, and the ghrp, which can increase prolactin? Thanks.


----------



## hackskii

I think GH can bump up prolactin, but unless it is something pretty high, doubt it is elevated out of range.

I don't agree with taking anything that yields little rewards.


----------



## MS30

hackskii said:


> I think GH can bump up prolactin, but unless it is something pretty high, doubt it is elevated out of range.
> 
> I don't agree with taking anything that yields little rewards.


Ok then, I'll drop the ghrp-2 and just use caber for a few more weeks at a lower dose. I will update as soon as I go in for another blood panel.


----------



## hackskii

why use caber at this point?


----------



## MS30

hackskii said:


> why use caber at this point?


I probably will drop Caber, my libido really did improve and occaaional puffiness in nips less frequent. The problem is on Torem I no longer get morning or night erections. I was thinking of switching to clomid until I am able to sleep longer. I was thinking 10-12mg dose. Or should I just taper off everything? Thank you.


----------



## hackskii

I would never use another SERM over clomid, some don't get along with it well but I cant think of anything that works as well.

12.5mg is fine and probably will work well.


----------



## MS30

hackskii said:


> I would never use another SERM over clomid, some don't get along with it well but I cant think of anything that works as well.
> 
> 12.5mg is fine and probably will work well.


Sounds good, today I was able to get blood flowing below just by thinking about sex, so I am almost at the level I was at before pro-hormones in my mid twenties in that regard. So the Caber seems to have helped, I have heard from those that have used pro-hormones that caber cleared up their sexual issues. I have gone off of it for now, but I have plenty left over if I need to try it again. Talked to my doc and I got a prescription for Ambien, so I will see if that helps. Thanks again for your help.


----------



## hackskii

Prolactin is highest after intercourse, so technically caber would only aid in refractory time, and probably not libido, unless it was caused from too much prolactin.


----------



## MS30

hackskii said:


> Prolactin is highest after intercourse, so technically caber would only aid in refractory time, and probably not libido, unless it was caused from too much prolactin.


I'll double check with the pharmacist, but is there any adverse reactions to taking clomid with Ambien, or just coming off cabergoline for that matter?


----------



## MS30

hackskii said:


> Prolactin is highest after intercourse, so technically caber would only aid in refractory time, and probably not libido, unless it was caused from too much prolactin.


Past two nights I wake up suddenly from a dream, like no REM. I was feeling very tired before hand, and a tingling headache. I believe it is caused by the Caber, any idea until it's out of my system? My last dose was .5mg 4 days ago, and I only took, .25mg and .5mg, .5mg spaced between 3-4 days between doses. Shortly after waking up I took some melatonin and 5 htp, and I was able to sleep for a few more hours, but woke up about every hour.


----------



## hackskii

MS30 said:


> I'll double check with the pharmacist, but is there any adverse reactions to taking clomid with Ambien, or just coming off cabergoline for that matter?


I don't see any issue here.


----------



## flippyfloppy33

hacksii, just ended a 10 week cycle of prop/pct about 3 months ago.

Had 2 blood tests in the last month and both times my total t was in the 300's (one time 315 and another 390).

Would like to do a test e or test e/winny cycle but want to get my numbers back in order.

I have somewhat of a libido but nothing crazy, but am ALWAYS tired and have consistently lost any gains made on the most recent cycle, which is odd because I have always retained gains from all other previous cycles well.

Is this something that I could go into a cycle without worries or should I be worried about becoming completely shut down?

What do you suggest the best route is?


----------



## hackskii

Well, your next cycle should include an AI, and hCG, other than that, it is your call.


----------



## hackskii

If hCG has not been used during the cycle then one perhaps may need it after.

500iu twice a week will be just fine to use, any less and one may not keep testicular function.

Actually the Power PCT has been modified, but for the most part he moved the frequency to 2000iu every 3 days.

The clomid wont do much while on hCG so pretty much you will need it after the hCG.

It is always recommended that it be used during the cycle.


----------



## Big Ian

Hi Hacksii,

Have read up to page 5 on this thread (awesome btw) but dont have time right now to read all 95 pages so sorry if this has been asked before.

My situation is that ive been b and c'ing for the last 3-4 years (mostly c'ing on 170mg/test e per week due to a variety of injuries ive had) an have finished one last blast where i took my last shot of 1500mg tren e and mast e combined 2 weeks ago and im going clean for a good while/possibly forever. I have used hcg throughout at around 750iu per week so my balls are only very slightly atrophied i would say, would doin the 2500iu eod hcg be too much? Ie would it do more harm than good or can it only help but i may be wastin some money? I would rather spend a bit more and potentially waste a bit on the recovery to make sure i have an easier transition than not use enough by cheaping out but equally dont want to damage my chances of recovery by doing too much?

Also, how long after my last shot do you think i should start the power pct?

Thanks


----------



## hackskii

How much was your last shots each in mg?

Was that 1500mg tren E, and 1500mg mast E?

If so then more than a month to start your PCT.

You might just need somewhere around 1500 to 2000iu hCG every 3 days to get testicular function over about 3 to 4 weeks time.

Could if you used that much enanthate then you can shoot the hCG while the gear clears and use 20mg nolva for protection against estrogenic sides.


----------



## Big Ian

hackskii said:


> How much was your last shots each in mg?
> 
> Was that 1500mg tren E, and 1500mg mast E?
> 
> If so then more than a month to start your PCT.
> 
> You might just need somewhere around 1500 to 2000iu hCG every 3 days to get testicular function over about 3 to 4 weeks time.
> 
> Could if you used that much enanthate then you can shoot the hCG while the gear clears and use 20mg nolva for protection against estrogenic sides.


Thanks for the reply bud 

No sorry didnt make it clear on dose. 1500mg total for the last 4 weeks, 1000mg tren e and 500mg mast e per week. Highest ive ever been on tren as an experiment......was awesome lol

Do you think about 3 weeks after my last shot of tren/mast until the 2000iu hcg e3d?


----------



## hackskii

1000mg of tren E wont clear in 3 weeks, I would play it safe and run your hCG 4 weeks or even 5 weeks, then off hCG and on the SERMS.

Could drop it to 1500iu every 3 days for 5 weeks.


----------



## Big Ian

hackskii said:


> 1000mg of tren E wont clear in 3 weeks, I would play it safe and run your hCG 4 weeks or even 5 weeks, then off hCG and on the SERMS.
> 
> Could drop it to 1500iu every 3 days for 5 weeks.


Ta bud, should i just start the higher dose phase of the hcg now then or wait a bit longer (currently 14 days post injection and did a shot of hcg on sunday of 1000iu and still have another 1000iu shot out of this amp to use)


----------



## MS30

hackskii said:


> I don't see any issue here.


Thanks, I am feeling better after going without a week of using Caber, and I have been taking 12.5mg of Clomid ED, but I am only getting occasional morning wood. My varying sleep quality has probably affecting that more so. I was wondering how long I can use low dose clomid before my body adapts to it? I have heard people having that problem running serms long term. Any thoughts on using DIM? Or would that interfere with Clomid? Thank you.


----------



## Big Ian

hackskii said:


> 1000mg of tren E wont clear in 3 weeks, I would play it safe and run your hCG 4 weeks or even 5 weeks, then off hCG and on the SERMS.
> 
> Could drop it to 1500iu every 3 days for 5 weeks.


Also, would 50mg per day of clomid be ok as i get pretty bad visual disturbances from clomid and theyre worse te higher dose i go?


----------



## hackskii

Big Ian said:


> Ta bud, should i just start the higher dose phase of the hcg now then or wait a bit longer (currently 14 days post injection and did a shot of hcg on sunday of 1000iu and still have another 1000iu shot out of this amp to use)


That probably wont be enough hCG though.



MS30 said:


> Thanks, I am feeling better after going without a week of using Caber, and I have been taking 12.5mg of Clomid ED, but I am only getting occasional morning wood. My varying sleep quality has probably affecting that more so. I was wondering how long I can use low dose clomid before my body adapts to it? I have heard people having that problem running serms long term. Any thoughts on using DIM? Or would that interfere with Clomid? Thank you.


DIMM is fine, probably wont interfere, and long term use running 12.5mg should not be an issue, you can also go EOD with that too.

Tapering all is fine.



Big Ian said:


> Also, would 50mg per day of clomid be ok as i get pretty bad visual disturbances from clomid and theyre worse te higher dose i go?


Fine, generally it is bigger doses and longer use that causes the ocular toxicity issues with clomid.


----------



## Big Ian

hackskii said:


> That probably wont be enough hCG though.
> 
> DIMM is fine, probably wont interfere, and long term use running 12.5mg should not be an issue, you can also go EOD with that too.
> 
> Tapering all is fine.
> 
> Fine, generally it is bigger doses and longer use that causes the ocular toxicity issues with clomid.


Yeah sorry i will be getting another 15000iu's hcg mate, just meant should i start the higher dose/more frequent phase next week after my last 1000iu shot or should i wait another week do you think for clearance times?

I get issues with my eyes within a few days at 100mg mate. You reckon 50mg will be worthwhile runnin anyway?


----------



## hackskii

Big Ian said:


> Yeah sorry i will be getting another 15000iu's hcg mate, just meant should i start the higher dose/more frequent phase next week after my last 1000iu shot or should i wait another week do you think for clearance times?
> 
> I get issues with my eyes within a few days at 100mg mate. You reckon 50mg will be worthwhile runnin anyway?


I kind of forgot your situation.

I cant remember your situation.

Let me read back.


----------



## hackskii

OK, you have been using 750iu a week of hCG for years?

You may not need as much as I was thinking, and yes you can just take nolva now and use 1000iu every 3 days till your gear clears then drop the hCG and add in the clomid.

If it gives you vision issues then you can do the clomid at 100mg per day for a couple of weeks, then drop to 50.

Clomid does work well fast at 100mg so no need to run it long.


----------



## Big Ian

hackskii said:


> OK, you have been using 750iu a week of hCG for years?
> 
> You may not need as much as I was thinking, and yes you can just take nolva now and use 1000iu every 3 days till your gear clears then drop the hCG and add in the clomid.
> 
> If it gives you vision issues then you can do the clomid at 100mg per day for a couple of weeks, then drop to 50.
> 
> Clomid does work well fast at 100mg so no need to run it long.


Thanks buddy, have already ordered 20,000iu now in readiness lol never mind! Still think i might run your suggested protocol e3d, going to split each amp of 5000iu into 3, so 1666iu per shot so it will take me to around 7wks after my last injection.

Was planning to run adex at 0.25mg/eod for the first 2 weeks of the high dose hcg and then switching to the 100mg clomid and 20mg nolva combined for the next 30 days. So that should give me about 2 wks just on clomid and nolva and then switch just to the nolva for another 5 weeks or so just to make sure im back up and running after all this time.

Does that sound reasonable?


----------



## Big Ian

Also, is it optimal to take the nolva and clomid on an empty stomach or with food or does it not matter?


----------



## MS30

hackskii said:


> DIMM is fine, probably wont interfere, and long term use running 12.5mg should not be an issue, you can also go EOD with that too.
> 
> Tapering all is fine.
> 
> Fine, generally it is bigger doses and longer use that causes the ocular toxicity issues with clomid.


Hi Hacksii, I was also wondering what other supplements I could use to lower SHBG and Prolactin? I was thinking about trying TestoJak 100 or 200. I hear that Singing Nettle is an 5AR2 inhibitor. So would Avena Sativia be a good choice? Any other things I could use with clomid would be helpful. Thank you.


----------



## hackskii

Big Ian said:


> Thanks buddy, have already ordered 20,000iu now in readiness lol never mind! Still think i might run your suggested protocol e3d, going to split each amp of 5000iu into 3, so 1666iu per shot so it will take me to around 7wks after my last injection.
> 
> Was planning to run adex at 0.25mg/eod for the first 2 weeks of the high dose hcg and then switching to the 100mg clomid and 20mg nolva combined for the next 30 days. So that should give me about 2 wks just on clomid and nolva and then switch just to the nolva for another 5 weeks or so just to make sure im back up and running after all this time.
> 
> Does that sound reasonable?


Because LH wont move when hCG is in the mix, you may just want to run low dose AI while on the nolva at 20mg per day.

Clomid once the hCG is gone will move LH very well.

Clomid with hCG will move FSH up though, but the sides of running clomid to long can be pretty heavy.



Big Ian said:


> Also, is it optimal to take the nolva and clomid on an empty stomach or with food or does it not matter?


Wont really matter.



MS30 said:


> Hi Hacksii, I was also wondering what other supplements I could use to lower SHBG and Prolactin? I was thinking about trying TestoJak 100 or 200. I hear that Singing Nettle is an 5AR2 inhibitor. So would Avena Sativia be a good choice? Any other things I could use with clomid would be helpful. Thank you.


Inhibiting DHT is not a good idea for promoting an increase in T levels, DHT is 3 to 5 times more androgenic than testosterone and absolutely necessary for libido, among other things.

Avena Sativa would be ok though, but some of the other things just steer clear of.

Cod liver tab a day, 25mg zinc, 200mg magnesium, 5000iu vitamin D all every day, along with 3mg boron would be fine, along with l-carnitine as well.

Other than that you can ditch all the other stuff.


----------



## basicallyyes

HI Hackskii, thanks for continuing to add to this thread, I've been reading from the start and still have some time to catch up. I was going to PM you but don't think I can because I'm new.

My HPTA has been shut down for some time now. I've had blood work and MRI's done to ensure no permanent physical problems and it just looks like I need a proper restart. Would you mind posting what the current proper HPTA restart / PCT is? I see what it started as but am thinking it may have changed during the 96 pages of this. Feel free to PM me if you're able to, I'd like to do this exactly correct to give myself the best chance of restarting. Thanks again man



hackskii said:


> OK, you have been using 750iu a week of hCG for years?
> 
> You may not need as much as I was thinking, and yes you can just take nolva now and use 1000iu every 3 days till your gear clears then drop the hCG and add in the clomid.
> 
> If it gives you vision issues then you can do the clomid at 100mg per day for a couple of weeks, then drop to 50.
> 
> Clomid does work well fast at 100mg so no need to run it long.


----------



## hackskii

Well, it has changed.

The doc now uses 2000iu every 3 days, but never said about the use of clomid.

So, this is how I suggest it be done.

2000iu every 3 day x 10 shots, so that will be about 30 days on hCG.

Basically you would go get blood after the 3rd week to see if you are in range for testosterone.

If not then continue with hCG, if so drop the hCG and take the SERMS.

Now to avoid the estrogenic effects of the hCG you will take 20mg nolva per day.

Once the hCG is done you add 100mg clomid for 3 weeks, then drop it to 50mg for 2 weeks.

The nolva will stay in there for the while time and a week or two post clomid use.

Vitamin D at 5000iu should be used daily.


----------



## basicallyyes

Thanks a bunch man, I know it's a bit of a pain to repeat things you've probably said over and over, it's just such a large thread 

So if I understand then here is the protocol lined out:

5000 iu Vit D every day

2000iu hcg every 3rd day for thirty days

once I am in range for serum testosterone stop hcg and begin 100 mg of clomid for three weeks, then 50 mg for two weeks.

complete

20 mg nolvadex every day for the entire duration and for two weeks after my last dose clomid

Also, is there a place online I can buy the hcg or is it pretty much only through a doctor...if so do I have to go to a specialist like an endo or can I just go to a primary care physician (I'm in the states) I have clomid and am taking d3 already, still need nolvadex and hcg...PM me if you know of any reliable places online I can get these or post em here if forum rules allow. I'm ready to get my life back, THANK YOU



hackskii said:


> Well, it has changed.
> 
> The doc now uses 2000iu every 3 days, but never said about the use of clomid.
> 
> So, this is how I suggest it be done.
> 
> 2000iu every 3 day x 10 shots, so that will be about 30 days on hCG.
> 
> Basically you would go get blood after the 3rd week to see if you are in range for testosterone.
> 
> If not then continue with hCG, if so drop the hCG and take the SERMS.
> 
> Now to avoid the estrogenic effects of the hCG you will take 20mg nolva per day.
> 
> Once the hCG is done you add 100mg clomid for 3 weeks, then drop it to 50mg for 2 weeks.
> 
> The nolva will stay in there for the while time and a week or two post clomid use.
> 
> Vitamin D at 5000iu should be used daily.


----------



## hackskii

Well, hCG is sold on the net, but I don't know any place but if you look up hCG diet, it is all over the place.

But yah, pretty much what you wrote.


----------



## basicallyyes

hackskii said:


> Well, hCG is sold on the net, but I don't know any place but if you look up hCG diet, it is all over the place.
> 
> But yah, pretty much what you wrote.


thanks, what blood indicator lets me know I'm ready to get on clomid and off hcg? Am I looking at free testosterone going above 400?


----------



## hackskii

Yes, serum testosterone, and middle of range, it can actually go higher than natty levels, but that would be overkill.

Where your normal levels are.


----------



## basicallyyes

hackskii said:


> Yes, serum testosterone, and middle of range, it can actually go higher than natty levels, but that would be overkill.
> 
> Where your normal levels are.


thanks for taking time to answer my questions, much appreciated


----------



## 909Kasper

Is there any possibility I can private message you or email you regarding this? I have had serious trouble getting my natural production back and it's been a very rough year trying to get things working again.


----------



## basicallyyes

You guys are injecting hcg right? Not the liquid oral stuff



hackskii said:


> Well, hCG is sold on the net, but I don't know any place but if you look up hCG diet, it is all over the place.
> 
> But yah, pretty much what you wrote.


----------



## hackskii

basicallyyes said:


> You guys are injecting hcg right? Not the liquid oral stuff


Liquid oral stuff for the hCG diet is not hCG.


----------



## basicallyyes

Kasper, I'm in the same boat you are. I'd like to keep in touch so if you get things started again I can re-create what you did. I'm going to do exactly as hackskii has spoken about here and see if that works



909Kasper said:


> Is there any possibility I can private message you or email you regarding this? I have had serious trouble getting my natural production back and it's been a very rough year trying to get things working again.


----------



## mat2000

I wonder if this protocol will work for me.

I am secondary with low LH and T. My problem is in the pituitary side, although my MRI scans are fine. My Cortisol is a bit high but with unknown reason.

I have never took any TRT treatment, or HCG. I only took Clomid for 3 weeks to test if my testicles are producing T, and that was confirmed (T increased greatly).

So basically I need a restart protocol for my pituitary not for my testicles, this protocol seems focusing on restarting the testicles (as I understood) after being shut down for too long by using TRT, am I right?


----------



## hackskii

Well, I would look at the things that would suppress LH, like cortisol.


----------



## Gurlaash

I have the same problem with LH.. Restarting of test production was fine after my second cycle in the past.. First one wasn't so great due to my own ignorance and I am on my third one right now.. I keep HCG in the mix during the cycle and my testicals restart after pct.. But my LH and FSH didn't come back to normal.. The readings were still on the floor when I started my third one. May be I too need a pituitary restarting protocol. Is there any ?


----------



## hackskii

Use 20mg nolva for 6 weeks.

Use 100mg clomid for 3 weeks, then 2 weeks at 50mg per day.

I would add 5000iu vitamin D every day as well.


----------



## MS30

hackskii said:


> Inhibiting DHT is not a good idea for promoting an increase in T levels, DHT is 3 to 5 times more androgenic than testosterone and absolutely necessary for libido, among other things.
> 
> Avena Sativa would be ok though, but some of the other things just steer clear of.
> 
> Cod liver tab a day, 25mg zinc, 200mg magnesium, 5000iu vitamin D all every day, along with 3mg boron would be fine, along with l-carnitine as well.
> 
> Other than that you can ditch all the other stuff.


Hi Hacksii, I have been using Avena Sativa for a while now and it has improved sensitivity and a little bit of libido. I am going to change up my protocol to 25mg of clomid EOD, I have fround a source where 25mg is the smallest dose, but has a higher purity. I was wondering if I could add HORNY GOAT WEED to the mix? Or should I just stick with what I am using now? And I was wondering what is a safe level of Vitamin D? My last reading was 65. Thank you.


----------



## hackskii

Some guys love horny goat weed, others do not, some love MACA, others do not.

It is fine to add, and your vitamin D I think by memory is ok, I still supplement that anyway.


----------



## didless

Hi Hacks

Been off the gear now since January after being on for a good few years, done a full power pct in january, had my bloods done last week (9 months since start of pct) and just phoned for results and all seems fine apart from my testosterone, I've booked another appointment to discuss.

Would clomid help increase my testosterone levels? im assuming that the doc is going to say they are low, how low I don't know been trying for a baby since feb but no joy.

Prior to blood tests the doc felt my testies and were of normal size.


----------



## 19072

@didless - have you been for sperm analysis?


----------



## hackskii

didless said:


> Hi Hacks
> 
> Been off the gear now since January after being on for a good few years, done a full power pct in january, had my bloods done last week (9 months since start of pct) and just phoned for results and all seems fine apart from my testosterone, I've booked another appointment to discuss.
> 
> Would clomid help increase my testosterone levels? im assuming that the doc is going to say they are low, how low I don't know been trying for a baby since feb but no joy.
> 
> Prior to blood tests the doc felt my testies and were of normal size.


It would be good to know or see the numbers.

Just taking vitamin D at 5000iu may move your numbers, and if the test was done in the afternoon it will show lower numbers than morning.

Can you get an erection and keep one?

Do you get morning or night time wood?

Can you have sex?


----------



## didless

hackskii said:


> It would be good to know or see the numbers.
> 
> Just taking vitamin D at 5000iu may move your numbers, and if the test was done in the afternoon it will show lower numbers than morning.
> 
> Can you get an erection and keep one?
> 
> Do you get morning or night time wood?
> 
> Can you have sex?


Test was done around 9am last week.

Can you get an erection and keep one? YES

Do you get morning or night time wood? YES

Can you have sex? YES

No sperm test yet, I went to doc explaining that we are trying for baby and it hasn't happened and explained my sex drive would allow for sex once a day but that was about it so sent me for tests, all good apart from testosterone receptionist said so have an appointment with doc week tomorrow


----------



## didless

would clomid help with natural test levels?


----------



## arnold84

didless said:


> would clomid help with natural test levels?


I would say wait for the blood test results and post up total T , free T , FSH , LH

Then you can see where the problem lays


----------



## didless

here are the results

View attachment 161358


View attachment 161359


----------



## arnold84

didless said:


> here are the results


did they test for LH and FSH?


----------



## didless

Not sure


----------



## hackskii

Did you finish the PCT?

How much hCG did you use?


----------



## didless

yes finished power pct feb/march, hcg was 8 shots of 2000iu


----------



## hackskii

didless said:


> yes finished power pct feb/march, hcg was 8 shots of 2000iu


Sounds like you did not achieve testicular function.

Or, not enough hCG was used.

No LH, FSH numbers?


----------



## didless

hackskii said:


> Sounds like you did not achieve testicular function.
> 
> Or, not enough hCG was used.
> 
> No LH, FSH numbers?


The pics above are the complete forms of the test.

if my sperm count and mobility checks out ok then I should be fertile?


----------



## arnold84

didless said:


> The pics above are the complete forms of the test.
> 
> if my sperm count and mobility checks out ok then I should be fertile?


Are you trying to achieve htpa recovery or trying to get your sperm count up? If it's the latter then a combo of hcg/hmg/clomid/proviron will send your sperm count through the roof


----------



## didless

arnold84 said:


> Are you trying to achieve htpa recovery or trying to get your sperm count up? If it's the latter then a combo of hcg/hmg/clomid/proviron will send your sperm count through the roof


I'm just trying to get the wife pregnant, will hopefully find out sperm count friday.


----------



## Billchris123

Hackskii I need your help mate, sorry to just jump on the thread but need your advice man ! I have started a thread or could you pm me? Much. Appreciated man !


----------



## didless

The count was lowish but mobility was good and had some good news last night, its been 11 months since I stopped gear after 8 years of blast and cruise.


----------



## Ljb

didless said:


> The count was lowish but mobility was good and had some good news last night, its been 11 months since I stopped gear after 8 years of blast and cruise.


8 years! wow! makes me worry a little less about my messed up sex drive! curious - your blasting and cruising what sort of dosages etc was it? did you have any time off at all for 8 years? and did you use anything to keep you in check whilst you were on? hcg etc


----------



## Warrior87

Ljb said:


> 8 years! wow! makes me worry a little less about my messed up sex drive! curious - your blasting and cruising what sort of dosages etc was it? did you have any time off at all for 8 years? and did you use anything to keep you in check whilst you were on? hcg etc


Stop worrying bro, just hit up the power PCT and come off for a while. Otherwise it's TRT


----------



## didless

Ljb said:


> 8 years! wow! makes me worry a little less about my messed up sex drive! curious - your blasting and cruising what sort of dosages etc was it? did you have any time off at all for 8 years? and did you use anything to keep you in check whilst you were on? hcg etc


My dosages were sensible 500/800mg of test no more than 400mg of tren e or deca, no hcg was used during which is most likely why my test levels are low now.


----------



## MS30

Hi hacksii, I am still taking 10-12mg of clomid daily, but I had to cut the other supplements since I was getting blurry vision from combining them with clomid on top of adderall (which can lower T levels) I was taking it for school purposes; I am off it now and I can sleep again. I am still not making much progress though in terms of function, I will occasionally get night time erections, but I still have difficulty achieving and maintaining one at will. I am planning on using clomid for a few more months then if nothing changes I will start looking for docs to get a prescription for TRT. I was thinking of possibly adding HCG and see if that would somehow be more effective. I have been researching triptorelin and have heard of guys having success, but it was only temporary and they were looking to restore function long enough to have a child. So it looks as though I do not have much of an option. Any input is always appreciated. Thank you.


----------



## hackskii

Could be the stimulants and perhaps adrenal issues..


----------



## MS30

hackskii said:


> Could be the stimulants and perhaps adrenal issues..


My last DHEA reading was within range, but a little low. Would you recommend taking DHEA at 25mgs? Or something else without the risk of raising estrogen?


----------



## hackskii

MS30 said:


> My last DHEA reading was within range, but a little low. Would you recommend taking DHEA at 25mgs? Or something else without the risk of raising estrogen?


In range then probably ok, a bit low then you can supp that.


----------



## Warrior87

hackskii said:


> In range then probably ok, a bit low then you can supp that.


Hacksi or any other learned PCT goers, could you look at my blood results. All other readings in range, Prolactin is fine.

So here are my bloods, been off AAS for 3 months after stupidly running 140mg test prop a week. Ran HCG at the end, but obviously that did stuff all.

Was very shut down for around 10 weeks, then just before I got bloods I noticed my testicles improved in size.

Still however notice my libido is low. Currently 27 years of age. On the bloods I see the LH is lower end of scale, and my test is still lower end of scale.

FSH is also low, showing that I am still on the shut down side, but possibly improving.

Obviously I want my natural libido back. I have a power pct waiting in my cupboard if needed.

Advice guys, should I be concerned, what should I focus on?nIm thinking my pituitary was pretty shut down, however it appears to be working, at the lower end of the scale, but should this rise naturally or with a proper PCT?

Now currently taking cod liver oil and Vit d3 5000iu


----------



## hackskii

Warrior87 said:


> Hacksi or any other learned PCT goers, could you look at my blood results. All other readings in range, Prolactin is fine.
> 
> So here are my bloods, been off AAS for 3 months after stupidly running 140mg test prop a week. Ran HCG at the end, but obviously that did stuff all.
> 
> Was very shut down for around 10 weeks, then just before I got bloods I noticed my testicles improved in size.
> 
> Still however notice my libido is low. Currently 27 years of age. On the bloods I see the LH is lower end of scale, and my test is still lower end of scale.
> 
> FSH is also low, showing that I am still on the shut down side, but possibly improving.
> 
> Obviously I want my natural libido back. I have a power pct waiting in my cupboard if needed.
> 
> Advice guys, should I be concerned, what should I focus on?nIm thinking my pituitary was pretty shut down, however it appears to be working, at the lower end of the scale, but should this rise naturally or with a proper PCT?
> 
> Now currently taking cod liver oil and Vit d3 5000iu


looks ok to me, the LH actually looks a bit high and the nuts are probably the sticking point, but they will be fine in no time.

Nothing stands out to me out of the ordinary, many young men will have LH actually lower than yours, but T levels higher, probably just a testicular issue, depending on the time of the test, those numbers could be higher.


----------



## jomamma007

Hey guys, and Hacksiii. First post here. I am 23 years old and was put on TRt after not recover from steroid use at 21 years old. I have what oyu would called anabolic induced hypogonadism I guess. I was on trt for a year and came off 10 months ago. I did the power PCT, well I did 1500iu hcg eod for 10 shots then I did clomid @100mgs for 4 weeks and nolva @20mgs for 6 weeks. My numbers elevated but I believe I started my PCT too soon or my body just needed more time to recover being on trt for a year at such a young age.

Anywho I just did a second PCT of torem but I don't think it did anything as I feel pretty much the same. I will get bloods tomorrow to see where I'm at, but I am not ready for a life of trt and need to recover. I definitely feel better then 6 months ago after my first PCT but I stilll have a lot of sides.

Now do I run another Power PCT as stated on the sticky, or the live POWER pct thread.

I believe its hcg alongside nolva, and clomid is added in after the last shot of hcg. Or do I just let my body try to balance out and fix itself.

Can someone also post a link up of the exact protocol, I'm having a hard time finding it, I only see the sticky Hacksii made many years ago thats 99 pages.

Thanks guys


----------



## jomamma007

What is the current Power Pct Protocol, Hacksii?

I was on HRT for a year at 22 years old after steroid induced hypogonadism. I don't want to be on this so I started the POWER PCT and got off of HRT 10 months ago.

I didn't recover as well as I liked and after 2 months my numbers after the POWER pct my numbers were low again, so I'm thinking about running a 2nd POWER pct. Any Advice?

I'm getting blood work done tomorrow to see where I'm sitting at. I know this was going to be a long process, after abusing steroids for a year only coming off long enough to PCT for 3 cycles and thena year of HRT but I know I can recover.

I ran a Torem pct this last 5 weeks but I'm not sure if it was legit as I don't really feel any different. If my numbers are elevated from the Torem, I will let my body level out for a few months and see what happens/. If not I think running the Power Pct again would be my best shot. The power pct I ran consisted of 1500 eod of hcg for 10 shots and then clomid at 50mgs for 4 weeks and nolva 20mgs and 6 weeks. Both serms started 4 days after last hcg shot. It seems you guys have a more effective power pct protocol now that I am hoping will be my best shot.

Also what's your take on HMG, should it be inlcuded?


----------



## hackskii

jomamma007 said:


> What is the current Power Pct Protocol, Hacksii?
> 
> I was on HRT for a year at 22 years old after steroid induced hypogonadism. I don't want to be on this so I started the POWER PCT and got off of HRT 10 months ago.
> 
> I didn't recover as well as I liked and after 2 months my numbers after the POWER pct my numbers were low again, so I'm thinking about running a 2nd POWER pct. Any Advice?
> 
> I'm getting blood work done tomorrow to see where I'm sitting at. I know this was going to be a long process, after abusing steroids for a year only coming off long enough to PCT for 3 cycles and thena year of HRT but I know I can recover.
> 
> I ran a Torem pct this last 5 weeks but I'm not sure if it was legit as I don't really feel any different. If my numbers are elevated from the Torem, I will let my body level out for a few months and see what happens/. If not I think running the Power Pct again would be my best shot. The power pct I ran consisted of 1500 eod of hcg for 10 shots and then clomid at 50mgs for 4 weeks and nolva 20mgs and 6 weeks. Both serms started 4 days after last hcg shot. It seems you guys have a more effective power pct protocol now that I am hoping will be my best shot.
> 
> Also what's your take on HMG, should it be inlcuded?


Before you do anything lets look at your numbers first.


----------



## MS30

hackskii said:


> In range then probably ok, a bit low then you can supp that.


Thanks. I have also been using Semax, which is supposed to normalize neural function and increase pituitary output. And I have been taking Aspartic Acid to help increase T from another angle. I have been debating whether or not to keep using it after I stop the Serms again to see if levels stay decent. My concern is that the Aspartic Acid will keep levels high enough to where doc will not prescribe TRT. I plan on stopping supplements in a few weeks and get another reading; and if levels are not around 600 or so I will go the TRT route. I was considering using triptorelin, but I do not want to put any more stress on my pituitary gland. I get the feeling that the sleep apnea is causing a knee jerk reaction by the endocrine system despite using cpap, kind of like having an allergic reaction and using adrenaline to treat the symptom, but it is not treating the cause of the problem. Thank you for all your help. If you have any other suggestions please let me know. Thank you.


----------



## hackskii

Drop the DAA, nix on the trip, and yes the apnea can lower T output.


----------



## MS30

hackskii said:


> Drop the DAA, nix on the trip, and yes the apnea can lower T output.


I will drop the DAA, but any particular reason why? I thought it worked on a different mechanism. Or is it an issue of stress on the gonads? Thanks


----------



## hackskii

MS30 said:


> I will drop the DAA, but any particular reason why? I thought it worked on a different mechanism. Or is it an issue of stress on the gonads? Thanks


I feel it may not help in recovery, in fact may hinder, so lets get all the obstacles out of the way to facilitate recovery.

Vitamin D at 5000iu per day would be a good add if not there already.


----------



## MS30

hackskii said:


> I feel it may not help in recovery, in fact may hinder, so lets get all the obstacles out of the way to facilitate recovery.
> 
> Vitamin D at 5000iu per day would be a good add if not there already.


Anything against resveratrol, or royal jelly?


----------



## hackskii

If one has any allergies to bee stings, then royal jelly is a no go, but I have no issue with resveratrol.


----------



## Doug3fresh

so im confused, after reading this thread, compared to the "understanding PCT" thread i am all over the place now.

im planning on 10 weeks of test p at 500mg

anavar for 8 weeks at 60mg and 80mg for last 2 weeks

i was planning on starting hcg on my second week, 2x week @ 500iu until my last test p pin,

keeping arimidex on hand just in case, and would run .25 - .5 in the later half of my cycle

and clomid for pct, 4 weeks at 100mg and last 2weeks at 50mg

am i an idiot?


----------



## hackskii

Doug3fresh said:


> so im confused, after reading this thread, compared to the "understanding PCT" thread i am all over the place now.
> 
> im planning on 10 weeks of test p at 500mg
> 
> anavar for 8 weeks at 60mg and 80mg for last 2 weeks
> 
> i was planning on starting hcg on my second week, 2x week @ 500iu until my last test p pin,
> 
> keeping arimidex on hand just in case, and would run .25 - .5 in the later half of my cycle
> 
> and clomid for pct, 4 weeks at 100mg and last 2weeks at 50mg
> 
> am i an idiot?


That is fine but the clomid you probably wont be able to run that much for that long.

Try 3 weeks at 100mg then drop that in half to 50mg for another week or so then cut it in half again, and run that for a week.


----------



## jomamma007

hackskii said:


> Before you do anything lets look at your numbers first.


Don't know if you wanted me to start my own thread. Not trying to hijack. Got boods back, just finished my second PCT since coming off TRT at 23 years old 10 months ago. All labcorp standard ranges, don't have them on me or I'd post them.

Total Test 783

Free test 12(9-21)

Estradiol sensitive 12(3-70) I think this I why I have been feeling so crappy, I have all the low E symtpoms

LH 7.3 (1-8)

FSH 7.8

SHBG 60 H (15-51)

everything else was normal

I guess my numbers are elevated from the second PCT which consisted of 4 week of Torem. My best bet I guess would be to let my body level out and see now if my numbers hold, re-test in 6-8 weeks?


----------



## Jay Walker

jomamma007 said:


> Don't know if you wanted me to start my own thread. Not trying to hijack. Got boods back, just finished my second PCT since coming off TRT at 23 years old 10 months ago. All labcorp standard ranges, don't have them on me or I'd post them.
> 
> Total Test 783
> 
> Free test 12(9-21)
> 
> Estradiol sensitive 12(3-70) I think this I why I have been feeling so crappy, I have all the low E symtpoms
> 
> LH 7.3 (1-8)
> 
> FSH 7.8
> 
> SHBG 60 H (15-51)
> 
> everything else was normal
> 
> I guess my numbers are elevated from the second PCT which consisted of 4 week of Torem. My best bet I guess would be to let my body level out and see now if my numbers hold, re-test in 6-8 weeks?


How long after PCT were they taken?


----------



## mihudmx

hi, i will give it a try to this protocol, after my contest cycle been shut down really hard. After bloodwork doc wanted to put me on TRT, Hope it works!


----------



## jomamma007

Jay Walker said:


> How long after PCT were they taken?


Unfortunately I took these 5 days after last Torem dose so I'm still being artificially stimulated. I will re-test in 4 weeks, and again in 8 weeks. Eat healthy, train smart, sleep as much as I can, take zma and vitamin d3 and hope my numbers stay above 500.

My SHBG has been a problem for a while know. It used to be 19(15-51) so I had some free test, but ever since I ran PCT's , it gets elevated from them. I swear I'd be better off running a 6 week cycle t get my SHBG down as it will fall as my test levels elevate, and then just taper off and let my body heal without PCT. At least my SHBG would stay down. It would probably come down faster then naturally letting it, as SHBG takes forever t normalize...


----------



## hackskii

Once off the SERMS SHBG will drop.


----------



## jomamma007

hackskii said:


> Once off the SERMS SHBG will drop.


so will my test haha, so let my body find it's homestasis and re-test in 6-8 weeks? Thanks for the reply


----------



## Warrior87

LH and FSH look really good, however it's so close after PCT that they are higher end scale due to that. Bloods in a month or so will give you a more accurate reading of your natural HPTA system


----------



## jomamma007

hackskii said:


> Once off the SERMS SHBG will drop.


If my next blood work in 6 weeks (8 weeks after end of PCT) shows High SHBG still, which I'm sure it will

What if I did a 6 week prop and mast E cycle to get that SHBG down and just come off with no PCT and let my body fix itself. Trust me I'm not addicted to gear I don't even care anymore , but I think this will help and here's why.

I only say this because after 2 months of 8 wee pro hormone with a bunk PCT that left me with a 108 Total test at the end of it, my body bounced back in 6 weeks and I had a 500 T level and SHBG was only 19(15-55) so I had a good amount of free test, mid range.

Then I did power pct old version after a tren cycle, and 6 months after my total T was 450 but my SHBG was still High 60(15-55)H which left me with no Free test, below the bottom of the range.

For some reason SERMS just elevated the crap out of my SHBG.

I've read that SHBG is the slowest changing of the hormones and I have a good feeling this method would get it down quicker then waiting 1+years naturally as I've read with most guys who have High SHBG after PCT.


----------



## hackskii

An AI will lower SHBG.


----------



## jomamma007

hackskii said:


> An AI will lower SHBG.


Thanks for the response. The only thing is that my esradiol sensitive is low already at 12(3-70). Would this be wise to do? I have aromasin on hand.


----------



## sauliuhas

just tried to have sex with mrs, got it up, 5min later it gone soft, can't hold an erection.. done a power pct after cycle, and it's been 3 mth since last jab...

viagra - even doesn't help, am using all the vits: d,e,zma, daa, b6, b12, c, etc, ad taurotest... this is so f... frustrating..


----------



## Warrior87

sauliuhas said:


> just tried to have sex with mrs, got it up, 5min later it gone soft, can't hold an erection.. done a power pct after cycle, and it's been 3 mth since last jab...
> 
> viagra - even doesn't help, am using all the vits: d,e,zma, daa, b6, b12, c, etc, ad taurotest... this is so f... frustrating..


Maybe the sex is boring? Therefore you aren't stimulated


----------



## sauliuhas

nah it's from a heavy pre comp cycle, i was on for 10mth eliminating test few wks precomp.. done power pct, then pct again.. was ok for a while, but now sex drive is not as it used to be.. balls shrunk big time.


----------



## Warrior87

sauliuhas said:


> nah it's from a heavy pre comp cycle, i was on for 10mth eliminating test few wks precomp.. done power pct, then pct again.. was ok for a while, but now sex drive is not as it used to be.. balls shrunk big time.


You could now be secondary...?


----------



## hackskii

Perhaps a run of clomid then?


----------



## sauliuhas

Warrior87 said:


> You could now be secondary...?


... done the bloods today, results next friday... i hope am not primary, secondary is possible to restore


----------



## MS30

hackskii said:


> If one has any allergies to bee stings, then royal jelly is a no go, but I have no issue with resveratrol.


Hi Hacksii, I will be off clomid soon and get some blood work done in a few weeks. Depending on the results I am going to ask him about getting a TRT script, if he won't even try that then I will have to find another doc. Should I cut the resveratrol as well? I don't want to get my levels just high enough to where I'm not performing well, but high enough not to have TRT. Thank you.


----------



## hackskii

MS30 said:


> Hi Hacksii, I will be off clomid soon and get some blood work done in a few weeks. Depending on the results I am going to ask him about getting a TRT script, if he won't even try that then I will have to find another doc. Should I cut the resveratrol as well? I don't want to get my levels just high enough to where I'm not performing well, but high enough not to have TRT. Thank you.


Why do you want TRT?

Your Own hormones can be balanced better than you can balance them.


----------



## MS30

hackskii said:


> Why do you want TRT?
> 
> Your Own hormones can be balanced better than you can balance them.


I would prefer to avoid it, but it looks like my body does not want to recover. I will know more when the next set of blood work comes back. Even with low doses of SERMS my libido is extremely low. Let me know if you have any more suggestions. Thank you.


----------



## KOZMO

Serms can kill libido.


----------



## KOZMO

MS30 said:


> Thanks. I have also been using Semax, which is supposed to normalize neural function and increase pituitary output. And I have been taking Aspartic Acid to help increase T from another angle. I have been debating whether or not to keep using it after I stop the Serms again to see if levels stay decent. My concern is that the Aspartic Acid will keep levels high enough to where doc will not prescribe TRT. I plan on stopping supplements in a few weeks and get another reading; and if levels are not around 600 or so I will go the TRT route. I was considering using triptorelin, but I do not want to put any more stress on my pituitary gland. I get the feeling that the sleep apnea is causing a knee jerk reaction by the endocrine system despite using cpap, kind of like having an allergic reaction and using adrenaline to treat the symptom, but it is not treating the cause of the problem. Thank you for all your help. If you have any other suggestions please let me know. Thank you.


Most recent studies say daa does nothing but drain wallet. Apnea increases time it takes to recover dramatically.


----------



## hackskii

Have faith, your body wants to recover.


----------



## MS30

KOZMO said:


> Most recent studies say daa does nothing but drain wallet. Apnea increases time it takes to recover dramatically.


Any time frame or examples of how long it would take for someone with apnea to recover? I will consider waiting until I have my tonsils removed before using TRT. Removing them should help my symptoms and decrease the need for cpap. Thank you.


----------



## sauliuhas

got the txt from nhs today, saying they got my blood results, and 2 of the readings are within the range, and one is on the border line..

booked an appointment, nearest one is next thursday.. I said can u just tell me which reading is on the border line, she goes: am not trained to discuss the results..

now me thinks, should i go in there and just ask, I know they tested for testosterone, probs fsh, lh, my balls are atrophied so imagine lh would be down, but J is it hard to just tell me, instead of waiting for a week and half???


----------



## KOZMO

MS30 said:


> Any time frame or examples of how long it would take for someone with apnea to recover? I will consider waiting until I have my tonsils removed before using TRT. Removing them should help my symptoms and decrease the need for cpap. Thank you.


Nothing is set in stone. What is your ahi? You need to make sure you are getting adequate sleep. My guess is you have not managed your apnea well enough to get proper sleep. Resulting in all symptoms you mentioned. I am a cpap user as well although I actually have hypopnea which is shallow breathing. Found out I have a deviated septum so after get surgery I should be able to say bye bye to. Cpap


----------



## MS30

KOZMO said:


> Nothing is set in stone. What is your ahi? You need to make sure you are getting adequate sleep. My guess is you have not managed your apnea well enough to get proper sleep. Resulting in all symptoms you mentioned. I am a cpap user as well although I actually have hypopnea which is shallow breathing. Found out I have a deviated septum so after get surgery I should be able to say bye bye to. Cpap


Average AHI is 2.5 . I also have ADHD which is also associated with low T, and had symptoms of low T and sleep apnea before using any supplements looking back now. So it TRT might be the way to go, but I will see what happens when I go for another consult.


----------



## flippyfloppy33

Hackskii, need some advice in terms of cycling or not before restart. Have run two test cycles (enanthate three years ago, prop one year ago). Came of the first cycle great, got back up and running and feeling right. Last year after cycling prop I never felt right. Had my numbers taken twice after cycle and that were in the low and mid 300's, so not totally shut down but testies never got back to full size. So my question is, is it viable to run a test e cycle followed by a restart and expect to have good results or should I skip that and just run a restart?


----------



## Warrior87

MS30 said:



> Average AHI is 2.5 . I also have ADHD which is also associated with low T, and had symptoms of low T and sleep apnea before using any supplements looking back now. So it TRT might be the way to go, but I will see what happens when I go for another consult.


You have been posting in this thread about recovery for over 18 months. Are you still not recovered from PH use from 2 years ago?


----------



## MS30

Warrior87 said:


> You have been posting in this thread about recovery for over 18 months. Are you still not recovered from PH use from 2 years ago?


I think it was due to a combination of PH use and sleep apnea. But after a few PCT's and cpap treatment it doesn't look like the body is going to cooperate. Which is why I am considering TRT. Levels may have been low before PH use, but I never thought to get checked out for apnea or hormone levels before starting something like PH. A full hormone panel should be part of every physical, but in America as long as you are well enough to walk, docs do not care.


----------



## Warrior87

MS30 said:


> I think it was due to a combination of PH use and sleep apnea. But after a few PCT's and cpap treatment it doesn't look like the body is going to cooperate. Which is why I am considering TRT. Levels may have been low before PH use, but I never thought to get checked out for apnea or hormone levels before starting something like PH. A full hormone panel should be part of every physical, but in America as long as you are well enough to walk, docs do not care.


Obviously it's a personal choice. But after 2 years I would have given in


----------



## hackskii

flippyfloppy33 said:


> Hackskii, need some advice in terms of cycling or not before restart. Have run two test cycles (enanthate three years ago, prop one year ago). Came of the first cycle great, got back up and running and feeling right. Last year after cycling prop I never felt right. Had my numbers taken twice after cycle and that were in the low and mid 300's, so not totally shut down but testies never got back to full size. So my question is, is it viable to run a test e cycle followed by a restart and expect to have good results or should I skip that and just run a restart?


I feel it best to figure out what is inhibiting your T levels before I did anything.

Could be many things, most of them can be fixed.


----------



## MS30

Warrior87 said:


> Obviously it's a personal choice. But after 2 years I would have given in


When I first started SERMs I had no clue that I had apnea. So this time around I am getting a full nights sleep on cpap and serms. If it does not take then I will go on TRT.


----------



## rasimfb

Hello hackskii.

Hope you can help on this.

I am 28 years ol and

I am highly active person been going to gym 8 years now and still going 4-5 days a week.

I used of course whey proteins,cretain,amino acids,BCAA,zma fat burners etc.

But never used streoids.

Didnt have any issues since ........

So ? have been having low -t symptoms like 3-5 months now.When I felt this ,I was low in libido,and went to urology...

So test were very low for my age...*

This was in november

Free T = 6,98 pg/ml

Total T = 3,8* ng/ml

So my doctor advised me nebido which ? took in NOvember,and I have been using proviron since than.

I took another test just last week and this not helped me...

The new test is :

Total T = 375 ng/dl

Free* T = 7,09 ng/dl

SHBG* * =* 34,79 nmol/L

TSH* * * =* 2,09

FSH* * * =* 0,42 mIU/ml

LH* * * * *=* 2,74 mIU / ml

E2 = 54 pg/ml 7-43 ref

TOtal 25 OH Vitam?n D* *=* * 15* ng/ml (* I am taking now 12000uni of Vitain D3* daily)

I am having right now low libido depression and major muscle loss and fat gain and feels my testicels went smaller.

What should i do right now?

Thanks


----------



## hackskii

I need all your reference ranges for everything, all labs have different values

Put up LH, FSH, E2, and as many things as you can.

I kind of suspect over training but we will go there once you post up the ranges.


----------



## rasimfb

hackskii said:


> I need all your reference ranges for everything, all labs have different values
> 
> Put up LH, FSH, E2, and as many things as you can.
> 
> I kind of suspect over training but we will go there once you post up the ranges.


Thanks hacksii for your reply..

Fsh 0.42 miu/ml ref 1-18

Lh 2.74 miu/ml ref 1.80-8.60

Prolaktin 6.45 ng/ml 1.60-20

Tsh 2.09 iu/ml 0.27-4.20

D vitamin 15 ng/ml

E2 54.25 pg/ml 7.6-43

If you need more please let me know


----------



## hackskii

T levels please.

E2 if you got that.


----------



## rasimfb

hackskii said:


> T levels please.
> 
> E2 if you got that.


Total T = 375 ng/dl 240-950

Free* T = 7,09 ng/dl 2.60-16.60

SHBG* * =* 34,79 nmol/L 14.50-48.40

E2 = 54.25 pg/ml 7.6 - 43


----------



## hackskii

Well, there you have it, seems your E is a bit too high.

Are you overweight?

This may just be that your T to E ratio is a bit off, and E is too high, that will compromise libido.

Add just 25mg of zinc to your diet.

Could not figure out how your FSH was low but LH in range.

Probably just a bit high E.


----------



## rasimfb

hackskii said:


> Well, there you have it, seems your E is a bit too high.
> 
> Are you overweight?
> 
> This may just be that your T to E ratio is a bit off, and E is too high, that will compromise libido.
> 
> Add just 25mg of zinc to your diet.
> 
> Could not figure out how your FSH was low but LH in range.
> 
> Probably just a bit high E.


In nov3mber doc gave me nebido injection and 50 mg proviron ed for 1 month maybe that lowered fsh?

But i had low libibo before injection also.but he didnt even check my fsh lh levels just test and free test.

I lost really bad muscle mass since than..and got some fat on the belly and chest.

I am 1.88 cm and 87 kg.

I m getting now optimen multivitamin -d3 12.000ui - grape seed...

My balls kind of small now and really low libido..

Do you think vitamin d made my test lowered and eating high carb at night made my e2 high.

1 doc told me use 100mg clomid ed 1 month

The other one 1000ui hcg x2 week and 0.5 aridimex x2 week

I didnt know anything about test or e2 levels so every min im th8nking this and efcting my life.

Really dont know what to do.


----------



## hackskii

Drop the vitamin D in half, take adex at .5mg twice a week and give it 2 weeks then lets see how that goes.

Get 8 hours sleep, add 25mg zinc, and do not overtrain.

Lets see how that goes.


----------



## rasimfb

hackskii said:


> Drop the vitamin D in half, take adex at .5mg twice a week and give it 2 weeks then lets see how that goes.
> 
> Get 8 hours sleep, add 25mg zinc, and do not overtrain.
> 
> Lets see how that goes.


Thank you very much for your time..

Should i cont to use whey protein ?

Also hcg or clomid is not neseccary i guess?

Sorry asking maybe stupid questions but even i was traning for a long time but never searched of test production or e2 as well.

Should i do some low carb diet to lose fat as well?


----------



## hackskii

Whey is ok.

Yes lose weight.

Start with what I suggest then we move forward from there.


----------



## rasimfb

hackskii said:


> Whey is ok.
> 
> Yes lose weight.
> 
> Start with what I suggest then we move forward from there.


Sure i will do that..what time should i take the adex and 3 days apart i guess?

One more question 

Will e2 rebound if i stop adex?


----------



## hackskii

rasimfb said:


> Sure i will do that..what time should i take the adex and 3 days apart i guess?
> 
> One more question
> 
> Will e2 rebound if i stop adex?


Depends, but if you feel you will get some better advice then please seek it some where else.


----------



## rasimfb

hackskii said:


> Depends, but if you feel you will get some better advice then please seek it some where else.


No i just wanted to learn thats why i asked.please dont get me wrong this is the first time i m going to use it.i realy appriciate all your help..


----------



## hackskii

rasimfb said:


> No i just wanted to learn thats why i asked.please dont get me wrong this is the first time i m going to use it.i realy appriciate all your help..


Then follow directions and I will ask you the questions, until then I have other things to do than 20 questions.

You asked for help, I am giving you help, you ask many questions, that makes helping much harder.


----------



## hackskii

Just found this: Amelioration of nandrolone decanoate-induced testicular and sperm toxicity in rats by taurine: Effects on steroidogenesis, redox and inflammatory cascades, and intrinsic apoptotic pathway

Results of the present study showed that taurine reversed nandrolone decanoate-induced perturbations in sperm characteristics, normalized serum testosterone level, and restored the activities of the key steroidogenic enzymes; 3beta-HSD, and 17beta-HSD.

Moreover, taurine prevented nandrolone decanoate-induced testicular toxicity and DNA damage by virtue of its antioxidant, anti-inflammatory, and anti-apoptotic effects.

Highlights

• Nandrolone decanoate (ND) disrupts sperm profile and steroidogenesis in rats.

• ND upregulates gene expression of inflammatory and apoptotic markers.

• Taurine normalizes sperm profile and serum testosterone level in ND-treated rats.

• Taurine prevents ND-induced testicular toxicity and DNA damage.

• Taurine shows antioxidant, anti-inflammatory, and anti-apoptotic effects.

Might not be a bad idea to add that to the mix during recovery.


----------



## Dan94

@hackskii

Do you rate these supps for lowering Estrogen?

5 Supplements that Lower High Estrogen Levels in Men


----------



## hackskii

Dan94 said:


> @hackskii
> 
> Do you rate these supps for lowering Estrogen?
> 
> 5 Supplements that Lower High Estrogen Levels in Men


Yah, they are all right, nothing spectacular though, zinc should be in the diet anyway, not over 25mg per day though.


----------



## Dan94

hackskii said:


> Yah, they are all right, nothing spectacular though, zinc should be in the diet anyway, not over 25mg per day though.


Do you rate DIM supps? I've seen them mentioned alot when researching.

My Test is in range but on the low side and E2 is in range but slightly higher side so trying to boost test (already taking Vit D @ 5000iu ED) by lowering estrogen.


----------



## hackskii

Dan94 said:


> Do you rate DIM supps? I've seen them mentioned alot when researching.
> 
> My Test is in range but on the low side and E2 is in range but slightly higher side so trying to boost test (already taking Vit D @ 5000iu ED) by lowering estrogen.


DIMM probably would be my first pic out of those.


----------



## Dan94

hackskii said:


> DIMM probably would be my first pic out of those.


How much would you use and would you cycle it at all?


----------



## hackskii

Dan94 said:


> How much would you use and would you cycle it at all?


If you are an older chap with a bit of amortization going on, then yes, cycling it no.


----------



## Redfox999

Can i ask why Tamoxifene is only used 20mg a day instead of 40mg ?what has changed that it's only used at max 20mg


----------



## hackskii

Redfox999 said:


> Can i ask why Tamoxifene is only used 20mg a day instead of 40mg ?what has changed that it's only used at max 20mg


Its always been 20mg.

Who suggests higher doses?


----------



## Redfox999

Well "standart" pct is usually 40mg Nolva...So i would like to know why it is not nessesary to take 40mg nolva


----------



## hackskii

Redfox999 said:


> Well "standart" pct is usually 40mg Nolva...So i would like to know why it is not nessesary to take 40mg nolva


Some body is not telling you the truth, I do not know of one person that suggests 40mg nolva.

I am saying it is not necessary to run 40mg nolva, 20mg will do.


----------



## Redfox999

Ok,that´s good enough to me then.Thanks...btw how much do you know about toremifene? im really intrested about it and was planning to use it.It seems to be quite similar then Nolva but seems to be much efficient about filling you´r old boys etc.


----------



## hackskii

Redfox999 said:


> Ok,that´s good enough to me then.Thanks...btw how much do you know about toremifene? im really intrested about it and was planning to use it.It seems to be quite similar then Nolva but seems to be much efficient about filling you´r old boys etc.


I have some, but never used it.

Clomid though is the daddy IMO for SERMs


----------



## EsiMania

my last hormone analysis has been realized i have Testicular problem...test was 2.74

i felt in this by awful therapy after using steroids

doctor said it's not hypogonadism...he Prescribed hcg 2500 IU twice per weak for 6 weeks..also i use clomid 50 mg per day

i have some questions

1. for first injection i forgot about 2500 IU and i made mistake by using 5000 IU and 3 days later i did second by 2500 IU...should i be worry about 5000 IU in first injection? can it heart my Testis?

2. what will be happen if i use any kind of hormones in this period?

3. this dose of clomid is good enough?

thanks


----------



## hackskii

EsiMania said:


> my last hormone analysis has been realized i have Testicular problem...test was 2.74
> 
> i felt in this by awful therapy after using steroids
> 
> doctor said it's not hypogonadism...he Prescribed hcg 2500 IU twice per weak for 6 weeks..also i use clomid 50 mg per day
> 
> i have some questions
> 
> 1. for first injection i forgot about 2500 IU and i made mistake by using 5000 IU and 3 days later i did second by 2500 IU...should i be worry about 5000 IU in first injection? can it heart my Testis?
> 
> 2. what will be happen if i use any kind of hormones in this period?
> 
> 3. this dose of clomid is good enough?
> 
> thanks


Its not really the way I would use it but I think that would work, but 35000iu may be a bit much, and if you had a shot of 5000iu then probably won't kill you, and lets do the math, its already done.

I would add 5000iu vitamin D to the mix every day.

At week 5 get bloods done to dee if you need anymore hCG, I also would ad 20mg per day nolva.


----------



## EsiMania

thanks

so it's better by hcg 2500 IU twice a weak...clomid 50 mg every day...nolva 20 mg

what is the reason of using clomid and nolva together? how it can help in this situation?


----------



## hackskii

EsiMania said:


> thanks
> 
> so it's better by hcg 2500 IU twice a weak...clomid 50 mg every day...nolva 20 mg
> 
> what is the reason of using clomid and nolva together? how it can help in this situation?


Yes, it is better using clomid and nolva together, I also would hold off on the clomid till after the hCG is done.


----------



## EsiMania

i have high Blood concentrations...these days i'm using hcg and i have bad feel in my heart...i did heart tests and doctor said there is nothing...also he said drug like nolva and clomid have no effect...but i'm not sure about hcg effect on heart and blood


----------



## crashz

Hey Hacksii, I hope you get a chance to read this. I am Trying to determine if this HCG protocal you mentioned will be too much for me or not. I have been running test enanthate and sust for a about a year and a half. At one point I stop for about three months and came off with hcg. I went back on, typically about 500mg/week. I am 25 years old, I do have atrophy clearly at this point but was never "large in size" to begin with so cant tell too much. Do you think following this protocal will help me or do you recommended different doses? I have 20000iu of hcg, 50mg nolva and 50 clomid. I just took my last jab three days ago of 1cc sust 250. Any chance you can suggest if this protocal would fit me as I have no idea if I am in total hpta shutdown. I intended to wait three weeks prior to starting hcg. I have never run hcg but only nolva to fight gyno symptoms during my long cycle. Thank you in advance.


----------



## hackskii

Nolva is 20mg not 50 per day.

hCG can be started now really, run that at 2000iu every 3 days, and take a tab of nolva at 20mg ED, run that till you run out of hCG or 10 shots (30) days, then once hCG is done, add the clomid at 100mg for 2 weeks, then 50mg for another 3 to 4 weeks, keep the nolva in at 20mg per day and run that a week longer than the clomid.

Add in 5000iu vitamin D3 every day starting now.


----------



## crashz

hackskii said:


> Nolva is 20mg not 50 per day.
> 
> hCG can be started now really, run that at 2000iu every 3 days, and take a tab of nolva at 20mg ED, run that till you run out of hCG or 10 shots (30) days, then once hCG is done, add the clomid at 100mg for 2 weeks, then 50mg for another 3 to 4 weeks, keep the nolva in at 20mg per day and run that a week longer than the clomid.
> 
> Add in 5000iu vitamin D3 every day starting now.


Just from everything I have read because the sust stays in the system for 3 weeks should I allow my sust to clear prior to hcg? Im just worried I will not be able to recover for making the mistake of running for so long with no hcg. I have 50mg nolva tabs, would it be wise to break it in half? As for clomid, any experience with visions problems and side effects, that has me worried the most. Sorry to pick your brain, just curious why the suggestion of 2000iu e3d of hcg for 10 shots oppose to 2500iu eod for 8 shots. Currently I am still on hold because my source has still not delivered the nolva and clomid, will the delay bare any affect? Thanks again, appreciate the feedback.


----------



## hackskii

Testicular function is primary.


----------



## EsiMania

it's know 4 weeks...8 shots of hcg 2500 iu...50 clomid per day...10 nolva per day...but i feel no change

same bad feeling...losing my weight more...as doctor said it's is for 6 weeks...i don't know what should i do...how can i stop it?


----------



## hackskii

How long on the clomid?


----------



## EsiMania

hackskii said:


> How long on the clomid?


how long i'm using? it's about two weeks...i added clomid from third week...almost no change


----------



## hackskii

EsiMania said:


> how long i'm using? it's about two weeks...i added clomid from third week...almost no change


How long on the hCG did you start after your last jab?

You do realize that clomid will do nothing if there is gear in your system right?


----------



## the.indian.guy

damn....look at the size of this thread. awesome work mr. hackskii

seriously, i appreciate the patience of "hackskii", answering to almost everyone .

great work


----------



## EsiMania

hackskii said:


> How long on the hCG did you start after your last jab?
> 
> You do realize that clomid will do nothing if there is gear in your system right?


last cycle was about 3 months ago...after that only 3 shots of hcg 2500 for therapy and then nothing...1 month later i realized i have testicular problem...in fact for one year i didn't use therapy after cycles and i fell in testicular problem

i think using hcg in this four weeks and adding clomid nolva from third week doesn't help me until now

i wanna change it to 3 shots of hcg 2500 per week...100 mg clomid & 20 mg nolva per day...can it help?


----------



## hackskii

EsiMania said:


> last cycle was about 3 months ago...after that only 3 shots of hcg 2500 for therapy and then nothing...1 month later i realized i have testicular problem...in fact for one year i didn't use therapy after cycles and i fell in testicular problem
> 
> i think using hcg in this four weeks and adding clomid nolva from third week doesn't help me until now
> 
> i wanna change it to 3 shots of hcg 2500 per week...100 mg clomid & 20 mg nolva per day...can it help?


Clomid is pointless while on hCG, have you had bloods?

3 shots of 2500 probably won't get you half way there.


----------



## EsiMania

hackskii said:


> Clomid is pointless while on hCG, have you had bloods?
> 
> 3 shots of 2500 probably won't get you half way there.


thanks a lot Mr. hackskii

so i should off clomid and use it after last shot of hcg?

in first three weeks of hcg i had libido but now in fourth i loose it almost ...you think 3 shots of hcg per week is not helpful?

i put my last blood test here

View attachment 167165


----------



## hackskii

Both LH, and FSH are in range your T is not.


----------



## MS30

hackskii said:


> Why do you want TRT?
> 
> Your Own hormones can be balanced better than you can balance them.


Hi Hacksii, I just had some labs done 4 weeks after my latest clomid run. I wanted to wait another 4 weeks but doc ordered bloodwork for another unrelated medication. Here are the latest numbers. There is some improvement, but not much. I think Semax helped in restoring some pituitary function.

Test Name: TESTOSTERONE

Result: 300

Units: ng/dl

Reference Range: (241-827)

Test Name: DEHYDROEPIANDROSTERONE

Result: 138

Units: ng/dL

Reference Range: (31-701)

Test Name: LUTROPIN

Result: 5.8

Units: mIU/mL

Reference Range:

Interpretation: LH REFERENCES RANGES: AS OF 4/18/13

Male: 1.2- 10.6 mIU/mL

Test Name: PROLACTIN

Result: 5.20

Units: ng/ml

Reference Range: (2.5-17.4)

Test Name: FOLLITROPIN

Result: 4.6

Units: mIU/ml

Reference Range:

Interpretation: FSH reference ranges: AS OF 4/18/13

Male: 0.7- 10.8 mIU/mL

Test Name: SEX HORMONE BINDING GLOBULIN

Result: 22.4

Units: nmol/L

Reference Range: (16.5-55.9)

Test Name: DEHYDROEPIANDROSTERONE SULFATE

Result: 271.0

Units: ug/dL

Reference Range: (138.5-475.2)

Assuming that these ranges stay the same, is it possible to increase Testosterone levels with another run of Clomid? My sexual function has improved, but I am not as energetic as I was when levels were in normal range for my age group about 630ng or so. Test was taken in the afternoon, but so were the tests for 600 levels. As I said before I would hate to use syringes on TRT. Thank you for your help.


----------



## hackskii

MS30 said:


> Hi Hacksii, I just had some labs done 4 weeks after my latest clomid run. I wanted to wait another 4 weeks but doc ordered bloodwork for another unrelated medication. Here are the latest numbers. There is some improvement, but not much. I think Semax helped in restoring some pituitary function.
> 
> Test Name: TESTOSTERONE
> 
> Result: 300
> 
> Units: ng/dl
> 
> Reference Range: (241-827)
> 
> Test Name: DEHYDROEPIANDROSTERONE
> 
> Result: 138
> 
> Units: ng/dL
> 
> Reference Range: (31-701)
> 
> Test Name: LUTROPIN
> 
> Result: 5.8
> 
> Units: mIU/mL
> 
> Reference Range:
> 
> Interpretation: LH REFERENCES RANGES: AS OF 4/18/13
> 
> Male: 1.2- 10.6 mIU/mL
> 
> Test Name: PROLACTIN
> 
> Result: 5.20
> 
> Units: ng/ml
> 
> Reference Range: (2.5-17.4)
> 
> Test Name: FOLLITROPIN
> 
> Result: 4.6
> 
> Units: mIU/ml
> 
> Reference Range:
> 
> Interpretation: FSH reference ranges: AS OF 4/18/13
> 
> Male: 0.7- 10.8 mIU/mL
> 
> Test Name: SEX HORMONE BINDING GLOBULIN
> 
> Result: 22.4
> 
> Units: nmol/L
> 
> Reference Range: (16.5-55.9)
> 
> Test Name: DEHYDROEPIANDROSTERONE SULFATE
> 
> Result: 271.0
> 
> Units: ug/dL
> 
> Reference Range: (138.5-475.2)
> 
> Assuming that these ranges stay the same, is it possible to increase Testosterone levels with another run of Clomid? My sexual function has improved, but I am not as energetic as I was when levels were in normal range for my age group about 630ng or so. Test was taken in the afternoon, but so were the tests for 600 levels. As I said before I would hate to use syringes on TRT. Thank you for your help.


Prudent advice would suggest doing nothing, and I agree.

Take vitamin D3 at 5000iu per day.

3mg boron per day for a few weeks.


----------



## MS30

hackskii said:


> Prudent advice would suggest doing nothing, and I agree.
> 
> Take vitamin D3 at 5000iu per day.
> 
> 3mg boron per day for a few weeks.


Thanks. How does boron work exactly?


----------



## hackskii

Used long ago son, like 40 years, something to do with Vitamin D


----------



## therock13

i could use some help regarding the docs power pct.. I've been off the juice for 2 years and I'm wanting to get myself back to normal. First off I was doing test e, and tren a and experienced major shutdown. The ol' testes only feel like they recovered size-wise like 60-65%. Prior to my cycle(s) i was a beast naturally and my test was through the roof when I was growing up and in my early& mid twenties. I'm now 29 years old and test is at only 330 ng/dl.!! I want to do the power pct but I'm not sure how this would work 2 years later.. should I NOT use the hcg and just do the 30 days of clomid and 45 days of nlova? Should I include the hcg or would this further inhibit/suppress the hpta? I want to permanently get my test levels higher(back to normal) revive my hpta and also get the nuts filled back out and back to the original size. Any veterans have any suggestions please give me your opinion.Thanks


----------



## hackskii

After 2 years, I don't think the Power PCT would be a good idea, size of the nuts mean nothing really.

Perhaps low dose clomid but I suspect something else may be going wrong.

You got the full bloods?


----------



## rasimfb

Hello hackskii,

I wrote you before regrding low test and I think found out why.

Varicocele was causing and i had a surgery like 4 days ago from both sides.I had microsurgery.

Just wanted to ask that since my balls werent functional for like 6-7 months.

I guess it could be the same as pct protocol.

My test were before surgery

Total T = 351 ng/dl

Free* T = 8,00 ng/dl

Fsh 0.44 miu/ml ref 1-15.40

Lh 2.14 miu/ml ref 1.20-7.80

Prolaktin 6.45 ng/ml 1.60-20

Tsh 2.09 iu/ml 0.27-4.20

E2 22.25 pg/ml 11-38

What would yo suggest?


----------



## hackskii

Just heal up, you will bounce back.


----------



## therock13

hackskii,

thanks for replying brother much appreciated! I don't have the full blood tests yet but I will be getting them done in the near future. I will def report back to you upon receiving the results..the doctors said I was fine after telling me my test levels were "normal"and they said my thyroid and liver were good as those were the only tests they performed. I know you really cant say much without seeing the labs yet but what might you suspect be the problem? And what tests exactly should I request? - thanks in advance.


----------



## therock13

hackskii,

thanks for replying brother much appreciated! I don't have the full blood tests yet but I will be getting them done in the near future. I will def report back to you upon receiving the results..the doctors said I was fine after telling me my test levels were "normal"and they said my thyroid and liver were good as those were the only tests they performed. I know you really cant say much without seeing the labs yet but what might you suspect be the problem? And what tests exactly should I request? - thanks in advance.


----------



## hackskii

LH, FSH, estrogen, prolactin, serum testosterone, free testosterone, SHBG.


----------



## Jalex

rasimfb said:


> Hello hackskii,
> 
> I wrote you before regrding low test and I think found out why.
> 
> Varicocele was causing and i had a surgery like 4 days ago from both sides.I had microsurgery.
> 
> Just wanted to ask that since my balls werent functional for like 6-7 months.
> 
> I guess it could be the same as pct protocol.
> 
> My test were before surgery
> 
> Total T = 351 ng/dl
> 
> Free* T = 8,00 ng/dl
> 
> Fsh 0.44 miu/ml ref 1-15.40
> 
> Lh 2.14 miu/ml ref 1.20-7.80
> 
> Prolaktin 6.45 ng/ml 1.60-20
> 
> Tsh 2.09 iu/ml 0.27-4.20
> 
> E2 22.25 pg/ml 11-38
> 
> What would yo suggest?


I have a varicole on my left nut.

Doctor said its small-medium and unless causing me bad discomfort (which it's not, just sometimes if I go in an awkward position).

Although I have borderline low test (not enough for trt).

Is there actually proof it effects test levels? Did your doc tell you that? Ancedotal? Thansk


----------



## hackskii

I have just seen it before in men.


----------



## therock13

hackskii,

ok thanks I will get those checked asap. Also i just checked my results from couple weeks ago and the free test is at 82.1 pg/ml..you mentioned maybe running a low dose of just clomid so I was wondering how much for how long ?


----------



## hackskii

12.5mg per day for a couple of months, I would take vitamin D3 at 5000iu per day.


----------



## therock13

hackskii,

Awesome thanks again bro. I appreciate your time and guidance


----------



## rasimfb

hello hacksii

Dont call me stupid  but ? dont know anything about test boosters or streoid.

Sice I told my low t since 6-7 months

Could be the reason of a nootropic testosterone booster as Cellucor p6 extreme black?

?s it a prohormone?

Amount Per Serving % DV **

Vitamin D (As Cholecalciferol) 1,666 IU 416%

Vitamin B6 (As Pyridoxal 5-Phosphate) 2 mg 100%

Magnesium (as D-Aspartic Acid Magnesium Chelate) 135 mg 33%

Zinc (As Zinc Monomethionine) 30 mg 200%

Copper (As Copper Bis (Glycinate) Chelate) 2 mg 100%

Nootropic Testosterone Matrix 2,105mg †

D-Aspartic Acid Magnesium Chelate, D-Serine, Alpha GPC (L-Alpha-Glycerylphosophorylcholine), 3,3'-Diindolymethane, Androstenolone

Vitamin & Mineral Support Blend 191mg †

Zinc Monomethionine, Copper Bis (Glycinate) Chelate, Cholecalciferol, Pyridoxal-5-Phosphate

Androgen Support Matrix 167mg †

Mucuna pruriens Seed Extract, (standardized for L-Dihydroxyphenylalanine), Andrographis paniculata Aerial Parts Extract (standardized for Andrographolides content)

** Percent Daily Values are based on a 2,000 calorie diet

† Daily Value not established

Other Ingredients:

Gelatin, Vegetable Cellulose, Silica Dioxide, Magnesium Stearate, Titanium Dioxide, FD&C Red #40, FD&C Blue #1, FD&C Yellow #6.

Contains: Soy.

D-Aspartic Acid Magnesium Chelate Is A Panent Of ThermoLife International, LLC And Is Protected by U.S. Patent # 8202908.

After I took this and stopped symptoms begin to start of low t ....


----------



## hackskii

rasimfb said:


> hello hacksii
> 
> Dont call me stupid  but ? dont know anything about test boosters or streoid.
> 
> Sice I told my low t since 6-7 months
> 
> Could be the reason of a nootropic testosterone booster as Cellucor p6 extreme black?
> 
> ?s it a prohormone?
> 
> Amount Per Serving % DV **
> 
> Vitamin D (As Cholecalciferol) 1,666 IU 416%
> 
> Vitamin B6 (As Pyridoxal 5-Phosphate) 2 mg 100%
> 
> Magnesium (as D-Aspartic Acid Magnesium Chelate) 135 mg 33%
> 
> Zinc (As Zinc Monomethionine) 30 mg 200%
> 
> Copper (As Copper Bis (Glycinate) Chelate) 2 mg 100%
> 
> Nootropic Testosterone Matrix 2,105mg †
> 
> D-Aspartic Acid Magnesium Chelate, D-Serine, Alpha GPC (L-Alpha-Glycerylphosophorylcholine), 3,3'-Diindolymethane, Androstenolone
> 
> Vitamin & Mineral Support Blend 191mg †
> 
> Zinc Monomethionine, Copper Bis (Glycinate) Chelate, Cholecalciferol, Pyridoxal-5-Phosphate
> 
> Androgen Support Matrix 167mg †
> 
> Mucuna pruriens Seed Extract, (standardized for L-Dihydroxyphenylalanine), Andrographis paniculata Aerial Parts Extract (standardized for Andrographolides content)
> 
> ** Percent Daily Values are based on a 2,000 calorie diet
> 
> † Daily Value not established
> 
> Other Ingredients:
> 
> Gelatin, Vegetable Cellulose, Silica Dioxide, Magnesium Stearate, Titanium Dioxide, FD&C Red #40, FD&C Blue #1, FD&C Yellow #6.
> 
> Contains: Soy.
> 
> D-Aspartic Acid Magnesium Chelate Is A Panent Of ThermoLife International, LLC And Is Protected by U.S. Patent # 8202908.
> 
> After I took this and stopped symptoms begin to start of low t ....


I would not spend my money on any test booster, regardless of the ingredients.


----------



## rasimfb

hackskii said:


> I would not spend my money on any test booster, regardless of the ingredients.


I have already used thos product and,

After I took this and stopped symptoms begin to start of low t ....

I have done every test and nothing came wrong and thıs started right after ı started I used this ****.

Total T = 351 ng/dl

Free* T = 8,00 ng/dl

Fsh 0.44 miu/ml ref 1-15.40

Lh 2.14 miu/ml ref 1.20-7.80

Prolaktin 6.45 ng/ml 1.60-20

Tsh 2.09 iu/ml 0.27-4.20

E2 22.25 pg/ml 11-38

Also have done bilateral varicocele like 1 week ago but now 0 libido .LAbs are just before surgery.

I have also tried clomid only 4 tablets and 1 week later resluts came like this: ( It is before the first test results ı mentioned earlier..

Prolaactin : 10.79 ng/ml ref : 3- 14.70

FSH : 0.76 miu/ml ref: 1.40 - 15.40

LH : 4.02 miu/ml ref : 1.20 - 7.80

e2 : 18.90 pg/ml ref : 11 -38

Total Test : 516.70 ng/ml ref : 300 - 1080

Free Test : 11.20 pg/ml ref : 8.70 - 30

SHBG : 41.40 nmol/l ref : 11-80

So should I got shot down ?

Should i try some pct?


----------



## hackskii

You are fine, don't do anything, but make sure you get enough sleep and take 5000iu vitamin D3 every day.


----------



## rasimfb

hackskii said:


> You are fine, don't do anything, but make sure you get enough sleep and take 5000iu vitamin D3 every day.


Hacksii

I have been the sanme since november and nothing changed.

Have been taking 6.000iu vitd3,multi vit, sleeping good

Had 5 lab tests always was around 350-375... lh fsh around the same.

It just happened after i used this product

Checked that Androstenolone is a prohormone which this product also has..i didnt finish the bottle but this is the only thing that i ised different than what i used to.


----------



## rasimfb

hackskii said:


> You are fine, don't do anything, but make sure you get enough sleep and take 5000iu vitamin D3 every day.


 @hackskii

Dear,

Doctor put me on 50mg Clomid. 25mg morning and 25mg evening.Today is 10th day.

And ? retested today just to see any change..

My last test was ;

Total T = 351 ng/dl

Free* T = 8,00 ng/dl

Fsh 0.44 miu/ml ref 1-15.40

Lh 2.14 miu/ml ref 1.20-7.80

Prolaktin 10.90 ng/ml 3-14.70

Tsh 2.09 iu/ml 0.27-4.20

E2 22.25 pg/ml 11-38

AFTER CLOMID :

Total T = 541 ng/dl

Free* T =

Fsh 1.35 miu/ml ref 1-15.40

Lh 7.33 miu/ml ref 1.20-7.80

Prolaktin 12.99 ng/ml 3 - 14.70

I would like to ask your opinions.

Please reply


----------



## hackskii

rasimfb said:


> @hackskii
> 
> Dear,
> 
> Doctor put me on 50mg Clomid. 25mg morning and 25mg evening.Today is 10th day.
> 
> And ? retested today just to see any change..
> 
> My last test was ;
> 
> Total T = 351 ng/dl
> 
> Free* T = 8,00 ng/dl
> 
> Fsh 0.44 miu/ml ref 1-15.40
> 
> Lh 2.14 miu/ml ref 1.20-7.80
> 
> Prolaktin 10.90 ng/ml 3-14.70
> 
> Tsh 2.09 iu/ml 0.27-4.20
> 
> E2 22.25 pg/ml 11-38
> 
> AFTER CLOMID :
> 
> Total T = 541 ng/dl
> 
> Free* T =
> 
> Fsh 1.35 miu/ml ref 1-15.40
> 
> Lh 7.33 miu/ml ref 1.20-7.80
> 
> Prolaktin 12.99 ng/ml 3 - 14.70
> 
> I would like to ask your opinions.
> 
> Please reply


Yah, look at your LH, it is at the top of range, T moved some, but not as much as LH, probably the nuts were a bit sluggish.

Clomid works very well, you probably should cut that in half now.


----------



## rasimfb

hackskii said:


> Yah, look at your LH, it is at the top of range, T moved some, but not as much as LH, probably the nuts were a bit sluggish.
> 
> Clomid works very well, you probably should cut that in half now.


Thanks man...

Thank you for your all help. I dont know why I got low t and lh and fsh since never used steroids,but as I mentioned used test booster..

So how long do you suggest to continue on 25mg and should I taper down after 25mg?

One last question is it normal that right now I dont have sex drive and some mild depression ?

Thanks advance.


----------



## hackskii

rasimfb said:


> Thanks man...
> 
> Thank you for your all help. I dont know why I got low t and lh and fsh since never used steroids,but as I mentioned used test booster..
> 
> So how long do you suggest to continue on 25mg and should I taper down after 25mg?
> 
> One last question is it normal that right now I dont have sex drive and some mild depression ?
> 
> Thanks advance.


Tapering would be a good idea as your LH is too high, clomid works well even low dose, and you don't need your LH that high.

Clomid can cause depression, and yes cause sex drive issues, another reason for using the lowest amount need to stimulate things.


----------



## rasimfb

hackskii said:


> Tapering would be a good idea as your LH is too high, clomid works well even low dose, and you don't need your LH that high.
> 
> Clomid can cause depression, and yes cause sex drive issues, another reason for using the lowest amount need to stimulate things.


Alright so will use 25mg 10 days from now on and 12.5mg another 10 days.

Than when should I get my blood test after stopping?

And how would I know that my hpta is normal again after stopping ?


----------



## hackskii

6 weeks after stopping get tested.


----------



## Bilz111

Hey Hackskii,

Well I started my anabolic cycle in last Nov with no knowledge and it was done by my trainer with sustanon,clen,winny,primbolan(This is what he told me)but due to the sides(ED issues I quitted) I couldn't continue soi only took 9 doses of which 3 were winny,and six were sustanon.After that I was still experiencing ED issues so I took Cialis 10mg which solved the problem and I was back and all was fine.So I started my pct with clomid 50 EOD,Nolva 25mg ED and proviron 10mg ED for 10 days before I had ED issues again.Since than my libido is down and I feel like ****,cialis was the only thing keeping my soldier alive and my pct ended on 16 Jan.PPl have told me that it takes time but I will recover with time.i did my blood tests last month and it came as follows:

1st Blood work done after 10 days of PCT(on 21/1/2015)

Serum testosterone: 490(249-836)

Prolactin:6.10(3-14)

Estrogen: 27 (range 39.8)

Blood Work Done 6/3/2015

Serum Testosterone :386.1 (249-836)

Serum Prolactin: 10.30 (3-14.7)

Serum FSH:0.55 (1.4-15.4)

Serum LH:0.60 (1.2-7.8)

Serum SHBG:42.88(14.5-48.4)

Free adrongen index: 31.24 (33.8-106)

Please Help!


----------



## hackskii

Your LH, and FSH are low, I would add clomid in at 100mg per day for a week, you using 50mg EOD was a bit light.

I would do 100mg clomid, for a week, then drop it to 50mg ED for a month.

I would run nolva for 6 weeks at 20mg per day.

5000iu vitamin D3 ED.


----------



## addseo1115

I have enjoyed with your experience. Thank you for posting. Have a nice day. :thumb:


----------



## Bilz111

First of all I would like to thankyou Hackskii for your help and your prompt reply.

I did my blood work done yesterday and here are the results.

Serum testosterone :390.2 (249-836)

Serum Prolactin: 8.00(3-14.7)

Serum FSH:1.12 (1.4-15.4)

Serum LH:0.60 (1.2-7.8)

Serum SHBG:39.34(14.5-48.4)

Free adrongen index: 34.4 (33.8-106)

Estrogen: 35.00(ND -39.8pg/ml)

My Testosterone has increased so did my FSH but LH remains still.Also I haven't taking any meds yet.

So should I use the above protocol you suggested?

Again sorry for being a ass but honestly I am just terrified thinking that I would never recover


----------



## hackskii

50mg clomid for a month, along with 10mg nolva for 6 weeks.

5000iu vitamin D.


----------



## Bilz111

hackskii said:


> 50mg clomid for a month, along with 10mg nolva for 6 weeks.
> 
> 5000iu vitamin D.


Thanktyou for your prompt reply.

One last thing do I need to taper it off coz most ppl say so in order to avoid estrogen rebound?


----------



## hackskii

You won't get estrogen rebounding with SERMS, but it is a good idea to taper that as well.


----------



## crashz

Im on my second shot of hcg (pregnyl) and haven't noticed any increase or feeling in testicles. Doing 20mg nolva ed and 2000iu e3d. Does it take a few shots or could I just not be responding to hcg? I did notice an increase in erection. Would it be too early to determine, all im concerned about is if I'm responding to hcg.


----------



## hackskii

Just calm yourself. All things are going in the right direction.

Try to relax.


----------



## hackskii

john_ said:


> hackskii i need your help i cant send u a private msg i dont know why


You don't have enough posts to PM yet.


----------



## hackskii

Just drop the dbol and you will regain your libido.


----------



## hackskii

john_ said:


> its been 2 weeks ...since those pills...... i have erection problems and i feel lethargic.......


Can you get some clomid?


----------



## hackskii

WEll, at 100mg clomid from 5 to 7 days doubles LH output and increases FSH by up to 50%

So, for a week start at 100mg clomid, and 20mg nolva, then after a week you can cut both in half and run for another 2 weeks or so.

For a 2 week cycle you probably should not even have to worry, but after 2 weeks, you should be ok.

Perhaps maybe highish estrogen.


----------



## hackskii

john_ said:


> how can 2 pills of dbol cause this ? size of both testes is same as before ...but erection problems are frustrating


Well, dbol does aromatise so it could be high estrogen that may cause libido issues, or the T to E ratio is off some.


----------



## hackskii

john_ said:


> i dropped the cycle in middle because my blood pressure got raised.... 150/100.... and i was feeling bloated and too much water retention


Pretty typical with dbol actually.


----------



## hackskii

Zinc is fine at 25mg per day, has mild AI properties, vitamin D at 5000iu is fine, and Boron at 3mg per day is fine too, Vitamin E is 1000iu per day.

Fenugreek is not needed, inhibiting DHT is a no no, as it is needed for libido, and opposes estrogen in some way making a better profile of T to E.

You can take all together if you like.


----------



## hackskii

You will be fine. Try to relax.


----------



## hackskii

john_ said:


> great thanks..... should i add aromasin along with ....clomid & nolvadex


You won't need to.

You can if you want, but doing so may drive E too low and make you feel worse.


----------



## rasimfb

hackskii said:


> Tapering would be a good idea as your LH is too high, clomid works well even low dose, and you don't need your LH that high.
> 
> Clomid can cause depression, and yes cause sex drive issues, another reason for using the lowest amount need to stimulate things.


Hello @hackskii

So I got my results back today and It has been 1 month since I started Clomid.

1 thing that is when I tapered down the Clomid from 50mg to 25mg my fsh dropped.Why do you think it would be? (Had varicocele surgery 1.5 month ago)

The Reslts when I was on 50mg ;

Total T = 541 ng/dl

Free* T =

Fsh 1.35 miu/ml ref 1-15.40

Lh 7.33 miu/ml ref 1.20-7.80

Prolaktin 12.99 ng/ml 3 - 14.70

ANd When I tapered down to 25mg:

Total T = 791 ng/dl

Fsh 1.04 miu/ml ref 1-15.40

Lh 8.12 miu/ml ref 1.20-7.80

Prolaktin 12.29 ng/ml 3-14.70

E2 29.60 pg/ml 11-38

DHT 131,68 pg/ml ref: 112-955

DHEA-S 259.00 ug/dl REf : 160-449

Also I had some other tests about adrenals,cause after I though what I had done wrong about my self since I never used streoids.Once you said for my case seems overtraining..

And I remembered after,back in summer ? used continuesly caffeine and was drinking coffe olsa during the day 2 cups I would say ED.

After I ready symptoms of overtraining that was me actually.

I was always tired,my joint and legs were painfull everyday I woke even when I dont train my legs.

Even though I slept more than 8 hours When I Woke up I was like never slept and very hard to get up.

Than I sensed my power and everything was going away.It was in November...

The Adrenal Tests are:

Cortisol AM(fasting) : 33.73 ug/dl Ref: 7-29 (THis is high but during the say it looks normal)

Cortisol 11.45 : 0.30 ug/dl Ref : < 0,69

Cortisol 16.30 : 0.20 ug/dl Ref : < 0,43

Cortisol 23.00 : 0.10 ug/dl REf : < 0,35

Norepinefrin : 258 pg/ml Ref : 120 - 680

Epinefrine : 43,50 pg/ml Ref : 0 -60

Dopamine : 82,60 pg/ml REf : 0 -87

Thanks in advance for your help


----------



## hackskii

I think that looks pretty good.

Depending on the time of the test FSH would be in range, and although it appears to be a tad bit low, I don't think you have anything to worry about.

Pretty killer T levels there man.


----------



## rasimfb

hackskii said:


> I think that looks pretty good.
> 
> Depending on the time of the test FSH would be in range, and although it appears to be a tad bit low, I don't think you have anything to worry about.
> 
> Pretty killer T levels there man.


Thanks man I hope I can keep these levels...

I took the tes early in the morning at 8.45..

But dont know if fsh would have been higher or something is stopping it.

What do you think about the overtraininig thing and adrenal hormones levels ?


----------



## sauliuhas

2 weeks tomorrow, no results for bloods

#NHSslow

#****edoff


----------



## hackskii

rasimfb said:


> Thanks man I hope I can keep these levels...
> 
> I took the tes early in the morning at 8.45..
> 
> But dont know if fsh would have been higher or something is stopping it.
> 
> What do you think about the overtraininig thing and adrenal hormones levels ?


Not displayed by the cortisol levels, but then again, try and relax, take things with a grain of salt, be happy, and try to relax.


----------



## strykn

Hello Haksi read a bunch of the thread and am a bit confused on what seems acceptable to warrant a HPTA restart... I been off gear for 1 year now and got bloods recently:

Total T: 8.2 (8.4-28.8) nmol/L

Testosterone Free Calculated

242 (170-630 pmol/L)

LH : 2.6 ( range <10)

FSH: 1.9 (Range <10)

I'm assuming HCG is not warranted and I should try the Clomid/ Novla protocol? Thanks


----------



## hackskii

Well, I see LH is up some, and T is down some.

Try 25mg clomid per day for a month.

Now, was deca in any of your last cycle?

What was your last cycle?


----------



## strykn

hackskii said:


> Well, I see LH is up some, and T is down some.
> 
> Try 25mg clomid per day for a month.
> 
> Now, was deca in any of your last cycle?
> 
> What was your last cycle?


Thanks for reply. I did test-e 500mg a week for 3 months then cruised at 250mg for 6 months. When I came off, for PCT I had blasted 1 vial of HCG in 1 week and then the standard aromasin/clomid/novla.. I recovered fine and bloods 2-3 weeks after PCT my total T was around 14 ... but these past few months I have been getting symptoms of low T so decided to get bloods done and viola total T had dropped ....

Will do the clomid!


----------



## Vitality

Great Infos here !

Also big thanks to Hackskii

I will start PCT in 3 weeks myself.

I have been on TRT for 15 months. Did a cold turkey withouth pct (as my endo advised LOL) after 6 months.

Afterwards startet TRT again 6 months on 80mg Testo Enantat every 3 days.

The last 3 months I went up to 120mg E3D and been in the best form of my life. Training, body and health wise (never sick).

So which would be the best PCT for me ?

I am 30years old. Planning to have some children some day.

I am planning to do the Power PCT from Dr. Scally but with slight changed according to Hackskii

5 days after the last injections (I use T - Enantat) I start with:

hCG 2,000 IU, 7 shots total (I know its supposed to be 10 shots but only got 15,000 IU HCG)

50mg clomid ED for 14 days then another 16days 50mg clomid twice per day. (12h between use)

Tamoxifen 20mg ED for 45 days (with hcg and clomid in the morning).

Also I add on daily basis:

25mg zinc

400mg magnesium

5000iu vitamin D3

and 2g of Fishoil

things to avoid:

Asperin and Alcohol

I also have in stack:

Cialis and levitra in case I have some erection problems and wanne have some quality time with my girl.

Formeron (an AI) in case I get bad acne (I always have/had bad skin) or the erection problems are caused by high estradiol.

My questions are:

1. Is 5 days after last pin correct to start pct ?

2. Should I lower my trt dose the last 3-6 injects to 80mg, which is a normal TRT dose (atm I am at 120mg)

3. I have not great skin... with the 120mg dose it got a bit worse but not significant. I am afraid of the pct acne. Is Clomid and Tamoxifen enough to handle Estro/Acne? Or should I add a pump of Formeron EOD. Anything else to reduce bad skin?

4. Dr. Scallys protocol starts with 100mg clomid from day one. Since its not that important while on HCG i wanted to start with 50mg and only up the dose to 100mg when I am off HCG. I also dont know how my side effects will be from clomid, since I never took it so starting with 50mg seems saver. Am I missing something or good idea?

5. Should I buy more HCG to do the full 10 shots instad of 7? I can buy only another 15,000 UI so I would waste around 80bucks...and I am kinde broke atm.

6. is Power PCT the right way after 8-15 months of TRT on moderate T doses?

If interested I keep you guys posted how its going 

Cheers Vitality

ps: I went on TRT coz I had all the symptoms and my T was quite low. Fixed all my problems. I think stress and pressure caused low T. I eliminated lots of stress and pressure so I hope my Tlevel will be finde now on its own... at least I wanne try if not I go back to TRT for life.


----------



## sauliuhas

@hackskii

Looked on pubmed for daa studies, but I can't find them! Were it says that it has opposite effect

Is it this one?EzineArticles Submission - Submit Your Best Quality Original Articles For Massive Exposure, Ezine Publishers Get 25 Free Article Reprints


----------



## hackskii

JISSN | Abstract | Three and six grams supplementation of d-aspartic acid in resistance trained men


----------



## hackskii

Vitality said:


> Great Infos here !
> 
> Also big thanks to Hackskii
> 
> I will start PCT in 3 weeks myself.
> 
> I have been on TRT for 15 months. Did a cold turkey withouth pct (as my endo advised LOL) after 6 months.
> 
> Afterwards startet TRT again 6 months on 80mg Testo Enantat every 3 days.
> 
> The last 3 months I went up to 120mg E3D and been in the best form of my life. Training, body and health wise (never sick).
> 
> So which would be the best PCT for me ?
> 
> I am 30years old. Planning to have some children some day.
> 
> I am planning to do the Power PCT from Dr. Scally but with slight changed according to Hackskii
> 
> 5 days after the last injections (I use T - Enantat) I start with:
> 
> hCG 2,000 IU, 7 shots total (I know its supposed to be 10 shots but only got 15,000 IU HCG)
> 
> 50mg clomid ED for 14 days then another 16days 50mg clomid twice per day. (12h between use)
> 
> Tamoxifen 20mg ED for 45 days (with hcg and clomid in the morning).
> 
> Also I add on daily basis:
> 
> 25mg zinc
> 
> 400mg magnesium
> 
> 5000iu vitamin D3
> 
> and 2g of Fishoil
> 
> things to avoid:
> 
> Asperin and Alcohol
> 
> I also have in stack:
> 
> Cialis and levitra in case I have some erection problems and wanne have some quality time with my girl.
> 
> Formeron (an AI) in case I get bad acne (I always have/had bad skin) or the erection problems are caused by high estradiol.
> 
> My questions are:
> 
> 1. Is 5 days after last pin correct to start pct ?
> 
> 2. Should I lower my trt dose the last 3-6 injects to 80mg, which is a normal TRT dose (atm I am at 120mg)
> 
> 3. I have not great skin... with the 120mg dose it got a bit worse but not significant. I am afraid of the pct acne. Is Clomid and Tamoxifen enough to handle Estro/Acne? Or should I add a pump of Formeron EOD. Anything else to reduce bad skin?
> 
> 4. Dr. Scallys protocol starts with 100mg clomid from day one. Since its not that important while on HCG i wanted to start with 50mg and only up the dose to 100mg when I am off HCG. I also dont know how my side effects will be from clomid, since I never took it so starting with 50mg seems saver. Am I missing something or good idea?
> 
> 5. Should I buy more HCG to do the full 10 shots instad of 7? I can buy only another 15,000 UI so I would waste around 80bucks...and I am kinde broke atm.
> 
> 6. is Power PCT the right way after 8-15 months of TRT on moderate T doses?
> 
> If interested I keep you guys posted how its going
> 
> Cheers Vitality
> 
> ps: I went on TRT coz I had all the symptoms and my T was quite low. Fixed all my problems. I think stress and pressure caused low T. I eliminated lots of stress and pressure so I hope my Tlevel will be finde now on its own... at least I wanne try if not I go back to TRT for life.


I would not even use clomid while on hCG myself, I also would get the full 20000 just to make sure.

The math problem would be for every 100mg testosterone do about 5 to 6 days for that to make it back to natty levels, if SERM's are used, they will have no influence if testosterone levels are in normal range.


----------



## strykn

Day 3 of 5000IU of Vit D.. my depression is going away this is great


----------



## Vitality

hackskii said:


> I would not even use clomid while on hCG myself, I also would get the full 20000 just to make sure.
> 
> The math problem would be for every 100mg testosterone do about 5 to 6 days for that to make it back to natty levels, if SERM's are used, they will have no influence if testosterone levels are in normal range.


Thank you a lot for your answer.

i try to get more hcg. Problem is, it takes a while in Germany :/

Ok so while on HCG i will only to 20mg of Tamo and start with clomid as soon as hcg ends. Should i use an AI like Formerone while on HCG? Or whill 20mg Tamo be enough to keep estrogen low?

Any other idea to prevent or battle bad skin while pct?

thank you hackskii


----------



## hackskii

low dose AI is ok if estrogen is an issue, if not, then no issue.


----------



## hackskii

john_ said:


> hackskii these are results FSH 6.42 (1.55----9.47) mIU/mL
> 
> LH 4.31 (2.0-----12.0) mIU/mL
> 
> prolactin : 148 (78-----380) mIU/mL
> 
> Testosterone : 9.36 nmol/L (4.56------28.2) nmol/L


Looks ok to me, though T is a bit on the low side, how do you feel?


----------



## sauliuhas

@hackskii

Would u say it's most likely secondary hypo, if test is low, fsh and lh below the range as well?

Cheers


----------



## hackskii

john_ said:


> well im only 23.... i dont feel like before.....but the depression is somewhat gone .....libido has gotten a little better ......should i continue nolva and clomid ....? and i took this test in the afternoon.... also before dbol i had killer libido like my body was always on fire its not the same....also i was losing my hair my head was going bald..... and now its started growing back ??? lol


Why not start a thread, or tell me what your cycle is, other than that just looking at the numbers that are in range won't tell me anything about what it is you did to get you to where you are.

Did you cycle?

If so what did you use, and how much, and how long?

Do you take any scrip drugs?



sauliuhas said:


> @hackskii
> 
> Would u say it's most likely secondary hypo, if test is low, fsh and lh below the range as well?
> 
> Cheers


He is not secondary, well within range and many guys will have much higher T with even lower LH.


----------



## sauliuhas

hackskii said:


> Why not start a thread, or tell me what your cycle is, other than that just looking at the numbers that are in range won't tell me anything about what it is you did to get you to where you are.
> 
> Did you cycle?
> 
> If so what did you use, and how much, and how long?
> 
> Do you take any scrip drugs?
> 
> He is not secondary, well within range and many guys will have much higher T with even lower LH.


Sorry I was on about my case not the guy above lol!

My test fsh and lh are low, and am reading that its secondary hypogonadism!

Doc is going to do an ultrasound next friday!


----------



## hackskii

See, guys jump in and post some labs and then want me to figure out what is going on with no other information.

I would have to look at what is going on with you, and if you want to do that fine, but start a new thread then invite me, and give as much information as possible as I am not a mind reader.


----------



## hackskii

john_ said:


> i did a dbol only cycle without pct because i was going to go 2 weeks but my bp got so high i stopped and did only a week.....this was my first cycle never used before....and dosage was 10mg per day


You won't need to do anything.


----------



## hackskii

john_ said:


> so will i be like this with low libido forever or will i recover back .....


You did a 1 week cycle, surely you are not shut down, and if you are having libido issues it probably is estrogen related and will go away.

Take 25mg zinc a day, and 5000iu vitamin D3 per day.


----------



## rasimfb

rasimfb said:


> Hello @hackskii
> 
> So I got my results back today and It has been 1 month since I started Clomid.
> 
> 1 thing that is when I tapered down the Clomid from 50mg to 25mg my fsh dropped.Why do you think it would be? (Had varicocele surgery 1.5 month ago)
> 
> The Reslts when I was on 50mg ;
> 
> Total T = 541 ng/dl
> 
> Free* T =
> 
> Fsh 1.35 miu/ml ref 1-15.40
> 
> Lh 7.33 miu/ml ref 1.20-7.80
> 
> Prolaktin 12.99 ng/ml 3 - 14.70
> 
> ANd When I tapered down to 25mg:
> 
> Total T = 791 ng/dl
> 
> Fsh 1.04 miu/ml ref 1-15.40
> 
> Lh 8.12 miu/ml ref 1.20-7.80
> 
> Prolaktin 12.29 ng/ml 3-14.70
> 
> E2 29.60 pg/ml 11-38
> 
> DHT 131,68 pg/ml ref: 112-955
> 
> DHEA-S 259.00 ug/dl REf : 160-449
> 
> Also I had some other tests about adrenals,cause after I though what I had done wrong about my self since I never used streoids.Once you said for my case seems overtraining..
> 
> And I remembered after,back in summer ? used continuesly caffeine and was drinking coffe olsa during the day 2 cups I would say ED.
> 
> After I ready symptoms of overtraining that was me actually.
> 
> I was always tired,my joint and legs were painfull everyday I woke even when I dont train my legs.
> 
> Even though I slept more than 8 hours When I Woke up I was like never slept and very hard to get up.
> 
> Than I sensed my power and everything was going away.It was in November...
> 
> The Adrenal Tests are:
> 
> Cortisol AM(fasting) : 33.73 ug/dl Ref: 7-29 (THis is high but during the say it looks normal)
> 
> Cortisol 11.45 : 0.30 ug/dl Ref : < 0,69
> 
> Cortisol 16.30 : 0.20 ug/dl Ref : < 0,43
> 
> Cortisol 23.00 : 0.10 ug/dl REf : < 0,35
> 
> Norepinefrin : 258 pg/ml Ref : 120 - 680
> 
> Epinefrine : 43,50 pg/ml Ref : 0 -60
> 
> Dopamine : 82,60 pg/ml REf : 0 -87
> 
> Thanks in advance for your help





hackskii said:


> I think that looks pretty good.
> 
> Depending on the time of the test FSH would be in range, and although it appears to be a tad bit low, I don't think you have anything to worry about.
> 
> Pretty killer T levels there man.


 @hackskii

Hey

Its been like 9 days since ? stop clomid as you can see the previous lab results..

Total T = 791 ng/dl

Fsh 1.04 miu/ml ref 1-15.40

Lh 8.12 miu/ml ref 1.20-7.80

Prolaktin 12.29 ng/ml 3-14.70

E2 29.60 pg/ml 11-38

DHT 131,68 pg/ml ref: 112-955

DHEA-S 259.00 ug/dl REf : 160-449

SHBG 48.60 nmol/L ref : 11-80

Free Test 17.30 pg/ml ref : 8,70 - 30

Today I got another lab I was just curious cause libido was going down..Prolactin and e2 going up with test and fsh again dropping..

Total T = 890 ng/dl

Fsh 0.85 miu/ml ref 1-15.40

Lh 6.00 miu/ml ref 1.20-7.80

Prolaktin 16.79 ng/ml 3-14.70

E2 34.20 pg/ml 11-38

TSH : 1.690 u?U/ml ref : 0.300 - 4,200

FT3 : 5.41 pmol/L ref : 3.10 -6.80

FT4 : 21.19 pmol/L ref : 12 - 22

What can I do with this prolactin and e2 levels ?


----------



## lysos

Hi haskii! Thanks for your thread it's awesome!

Can U help me ? Im 29 old and my libido is dead and my strength went down after my last cycle & PCT, i dont have morning erection. Im taking D3 5000 iu/day from 2 months.

My cycle Was:

1-4 dianabol 60mg

1-8 prop 100 mg e2d

6-20 cypio 500 mg e5d

1-10 npp 100 mg e2d

My PCTwas: 2500hcg e4d total: 10000 hcg after that 4 weeks clomid 50mg ed.

I finished PCT 31 of march.

Now my lab result are:

T: *12,81* nmol/l 8,64 - 29,00

Free T: *0,336* nmol/l 0,243 - 0,571

TSH: *1,30* mIU/l 0,30 - 3,69

LH: *2,8* mIU/l 1,7 - 8,6

FSH: *2,1* mIU/l 1,5 - 12,4

E2: *141 pmol/l* pmol/l 28 - 156

Prol: *10,4* ng/ml 4,0 - 15,2

What protocol U suggest for me ?

Thanks!


----------



## hackskii

rasimfb said:


> @hackskii
> 
> Hey
> 
> Its been like 9 days since ? stop clomid as you can see the previous lab results..
> 
> Total T = 791 ng/dl
> 
> Fsh 1.04 miu/ml ref 1-15.40
> 
> Lh 8.12 miu/ml ref 1.20-7.80
> 
> Prolaktin 12.29 ng/ml 3-14.70
> 
> E2 29.60 pg/ml 11-38
> 
> DHT 131,68 pg/ml ref: 112-955
> 
> DHEA-S 259.00 ug/dl REf : 160-449
> 
> SHBG 48.60 nmol/L ref : 11-80
> 
> Free Test 17.30 pg/ml ref : 8,70 - 30
> 
> Today I got another lab I was just curious cause libido was going down..Prolactin and e2 going up with test and fsh again dropping..
> 
> Total T = 890 ng/dl
> 
> Fsh 0.85 miu/ml ref 1-15.40
> 
> Lh 6.00 miu/ml ref 1.20-7.80
> 
> Prolaktin 16.79 ng/ml 3-14.70
> 
> E2 34.20 pg/ml 11-38
> 
> TSH : 1.690 u?U/ml ref : 0.300 - 4,200
> 
> FT3 : 5.41 pmol/L ref : 3.10 -6.80
> 
> FT4 : 21.19 pmol/L ref : 12 - 22
> 
> What can I do with this prolactin and e2 levels ?


Prolactin can make libido a bit off, but you probably can do cabbies at half tab twice a week, and adex at .5mg twice a week, but careful with that, testosterone is upper end of normal so it makes sense that E is following the same, ratio looks good though.


----------



## hackskii

lysos said:


> Hi haskii! Thanks for your thread it's awesome!
> 
> Can U help me ? Im 29 old and my libido is dead and my strength went down after my last cycle & PCT, i dont have morning erection. Im taking D3 5000 iu/day from 2 months.
> 
> My cycle Was:
> 
> 1-4 dianabol 60mg
> 
> 1-8 prop 100 mg e2d
> 
> 6-20 cypio 500 mg e5d
> 
> 1-10 npp 100 mg e2d
> 
> My PCTwas: 2500hcg e4d total: 10000 hcg after that 4 weeks clomid 50mg ed.
> 
> I finished PCT 31 of march.
> 
> Now my lab result are:
> 
> T: *12,81* nmol/l 8,64 - 29,00
> 
> Free T: *0,336* nmol/l 0,243 - 0,571
> 
> TSH: *1,30* mIU/l 0,30 - 3,69
> 
> LH: *2,8* mIU/l 1,7 - 8,6
> 
> FSH: *2,1* mIU/l 1,5 - 12,4
> 
> E2: *141 pmol/l* pmol/l 28 - 156
> 
> Prol: *10,4* ng/ml 4,0 - 15,2
> 
> What protocol U suggest for me ?
> 
> Thanks!


Well, 20 week cycle with only 10,000iu hCG is the problem I see.

But to be fair you are in range, just your T to E is off some, estrogen is high end of normal, and testosterone is low end of normal, probably would do ok using an AI.

Or, could use 25mg DHEA a day, and 25mg clomid ED for a month.


----------



## IAIN1978

Hi Hackskii, reading the first page on this thread, at the bottom it mentions after running the Power PCT to then run 12 weeks of testosterone followed by PCT again and then repeat again. What's the theory behind this?


----------



## hackskii

IAIN1978 said:


> Hi Hackskii, reading the first page on this thread, at the bottom it mentions after running the Power PCT to then run 12 weeks of testosterone followed by PCT again and then repeat again. What's the theory behind this?


I don't think I said that.


----------



## IAIN1978

Sorry bud, not saying you said it but it's written towards the bottom of first page. Not to worry m8. Was just interested.


----------



## rasimfb

rasimfb said:


> Hello @hackskii
> 
> So I got my results back today and It has been 1 month since I started Clomid.
> 
> 1 thing that is when I tapered down the Clomid from 50mg to 25mg my fsh dropped.Why do you think it would be? (Had varicocele surgery 1.5 month ago)
> 
> The Reslts when I was on 50mg ;
> 
> Total T = 541 ng/dl
> 
> Free* T =
> 
> Fsh 1.35 miu/ml ref 1-15.40
> 
> Lh 7.33 miu/ml ref 1.20-7.80
> 
> Prolaktin 12.99 ng/ml 3 - 14.70
> 
> ANd When I tapered down to 25mg:
> 
> Total T = 791 ng/dl
> 
> Fsh 1.04 miu/ml ref 1-15.40
> 
> Lh 8.12 miu/ml ref 1.20-7.80
> 
> Prolaktin 12.29 ng/ml 3-14.70
> 
> E2 29.60 pg/ml 11-38
> 
> DHT 131,68 pg/ml ref: 112-955
> 
> DHEA-S 259.00 ug/dl REf : 160-449
> 
> Also I had some other tests about adrenals,cause after I though what I had done wrong about my self since I never used streoids.Once you said for my case seems overtraining..
> 
> And I remembered after,back in summer ? used continuesly caffeine and was drinking coffe olsa during the day 2 cups I would say ED.
> 
> After I ready symptoms of overtraining that was me actually.
> 
> I was always tired,my joint and legs were painfull everyday I woke even when I dont train my legs.
> 
> Even though I slept more than 8 hours When I Woke up I was like never slept and very hard to get up.
> 
> Than I sensed my power and everything was going away.It was in November...
> 
> The Adrenal Tests are:
> 
> Cortisol AM(fasting) : 33.73 ug/dl Ref: 7-29 (THis is high but during the say it looks normal)
> 
> Cortisol 11.45 : 0.30 ug/dl Ref : < 0,69
> 
> Cortisol 16.30 : 0.20 ug/dl Ref : < 0,43
> 
> Cortisol 23.00 : 0.10 ug/dl REf : < 0,35
> 
> Norepinefrin : 258 pg/ml Ref : 120 - 680
> 
> Epinefrine : 43,50 pg/ml Ref : 0 -60
> 
> Dopamine : 82,60 pg/ml REf : 0 -87
> 
> Thanks in advance for your help





hackskii said:


> I think that looks pretty good.
> 
> Depending on the time of the test FSH would be in range, and although it appears to be a tad bit low, I don't think you have anything to worry about.
> 
> Pretty killer T levels there man.





hackskii said:


> Prolactin can make libido a bit off, but you probably can do cabbies at half tab twice a week, and adex at .5mg twice a week, but careful with that, testosterone is upper end of normal so it makes sense that E is following the same, ratio looks good though.


Thanks man,

I couldnt fint anywhere dostinex here,so what I can use to lower the prolactin ?


----------



## Bilz111

Hey hackskii,

I am taking 50mg clomid since 23ed April and also started hcg 2400iu EOD(2 doses) than 1200 iu(3 doses and the last one was missed so took it after two days.)

Now I got my blood work done and here are the results;

Serum Testosterone :928.9

LH:Less than 0.07

Fsh: less than 0.30

prolactin :6.70

Estrogen: 74

Testosterone has gone up but my fsh and lh are at bottom.

Has the hcg suppressed my hpta?

please help.


----------



## hackskii

Bilz111 said:


> Hey hackskii,
> 
> I am taking 50mg clomid since 23ed April and also started hcg 2400iu EOD(2 doses) than 1200 iu(3 doses and the last one was missed so took it after two days.)
> 
> Now I got my blood work done and here are the results;
> 
> Serum Testosterone :928.9
> 
> LH:Less than 0.07
> 
> Fsh: less than 0.30
> 
> prolactin :6.70
> 
> Estrogen: 74
> 
> Testosterone has gone up but my fsh and lh are at bottom.
> 
> Has the hcg suppressed my hpta?
> 
> please help.


Yah, don't do any more hCG.

Take clomid at 100mg for a week, then 50mg for a bit even a month.

Nolva at 20mg per day for a month.

Vitamin D every day at 5000iu.

Good news is T is well within range and actually depending on the labs over top end of normal.

What is the reference range for your labs, and for estrogen?


----------



## Bilz111

Thankyou for your prompt reply.

well yes testosterone is actually over the limit as it's 826 maximum.

As for the estrogen the range is 39.


----------



## Bilz111

Thankyou for your prompt reply.

well yes testosterone is actually over the limit as it's 826 maximum.

As for the estrogen the range is 39.


----------



## hackskii

Well, I am thinking now a bit of aromasin, and the SERMS to move your E down.

The ratio is ok, still a bit high compared to high T, but SERM's and Aromasin would probably allow you to feel good once your T starts to drop.

If you T drops, and E stays high, you won't feel all that good, and perhaps gyno symptoms may occur.


----------



## Bilz111

But what I don't get is clomid is supposed to increase fsh and lh but I have been taking it for 15 days and it had no effect so I am guessing that it didn't worked cause of hcgs effect?

I started nolva yesterday 10mg along with clomid 50mg.

Also I would like to know for how long can we take clomid at 50mg?

Will do a blood test after a week to know where do I stand.


----------



## Bilz111

Hey hackskii I did my blood test today and here are the results;

Serum Testosterone :380

Fsh: 1.27

LH: 1.80

Estrogen: 42

I am taking 50mg clomid and 10mg nolvadex along with 5000 iu vitD.

What should I do now as I am already on day 22nd of clomid?should i continue it for 30 days total or extend it?

Also what abt nolva?


----------



## Bilz111

Hey hackskii I did my blood test today and here are the results;

Serum Testosterone :380

Fsh: 1.27

LH: 1.80

Estrogen: 42

I am taking 50mg clomid and 10mg nolvadex along with 5000 iu vitD.

What should I do now as I am already on day 22nd of clomid?should i continue it for 30 days total or extend it?

Also what abt nolva?


----------



## hackskii

What are the lab ranges?


----------



## Bilz111

Serum Testosterone;380 (range 249-840)

Fsh:1.27 (range 1.4-15.4)

LH:1.80 (range 1.2-7.8)

Estrogen: 42(range 39)


----------



## hackskii

Bilz111 said:


> Serum Testosterone;380 (range 249-840)
> 
> Fsh:1.27 (range 1.4-15.4)
> 
> LH:1.80 (range 1.2-7.8)
> 
> Estrogen: 42(range 39)


More than likely a bit of clomid and an AI would be a good idea.

T in range, LH low, Estrogen high.


----------



## Deadcalm

Bilz111 said:


> Hey hackskii I did my blood test today and here are the results;
> 
> Serum Testosterone :380
> 
> Fsh: 1.27
> 
> LH: 1.80
> 
> Estrogen: 42
> 
> I am taking 50mg clomid and 10mg nolvadex along with 5000 iu vitD.
> 
> What should I do now as I am already on day 22nd of clomid?should i continue it for 30 days total or extend it?
> 
> Also what abt nolva?


If you've already been on clomid for 22 days and your FSH and LH are that low, then it's not a good sign.

Where have you got your clomid from? Is it pharmaceutical?

If I were you I'd make sure you have legit clomid before going any further, because it should be pushing your LH and FSH levels much higher than that after 22 days and whilst you're still on it now.


----------



## Bilz111

Yes but as I was taking hcg and while on it my testosterone went to 928 my lh and fsh were v low.So I was under the impression that hcg with clomid didn't do much coz of hcg effect.As you see my blood test on 6th while hcg +clomid.

As for the clomid yes it's a pharmaceutical grade one.


----------



## hackskii

Even on clomid hCG will hammer LH.


----------



## Bilz111

Deadcalm said:


> If you've already been on clomid for 22 days and your FSH and LH are that low, then it's not a good sign.
> 
> Where have you got your clomid from? Is it pharmaceutical?
> 
> If I were you I'd make sure you have legit clomid before going any further, because it should be pushing your LH and FSH levels much higher than that after 22 days and whilst you're still on it now.


Yes but as I was taking hcg and while on it my testosterone went to 928 my lh and fsh were v low.So I was under the impression that hcg with clomid didn't do much coz of hcg effect.As you see my blood test on 6th while hcg +clomid.

As for the clomid yes it's a pharmaceutical grade one.


----------



## Bilz111

hackskii said:


> Even on clomid hCG will hammer LH.


So what should i do?

pls help


----------



## hackskii

Bilz111 said:


> Hey hackskii,
> 
> I am taking 50mg clomid since 23ed April and also started hcg 2400iu EOD(2 doses) than 1200 iu(3 doses and the last one was missed so took it after two days.)
> 
> Now I got my blood work done and here are the results;
> 
> Serum Testosterone :928.9
> 
> LH:Less than 0.07
> 
> Fsh: less than 0.30
> 
> prolactin :6.70
> 
> Estrogen: 74
> 
> Testosterone has gone up but my fsh and lh are at bottom.
> 
> Has the hcg suppressed my hpta?
> 
> please help.


Start clomid at 100mg for a week, then do 2 weeks 50mg, followed by another 2 weeks 25mg

Nolva at 20mg every day for 6 weeks.

5000iu vitamin D3 ED.

You won't need hCG, your numbers are super high in T.


----------



## Bilz111

Should I be worried abt any side effects of clomid and nolva for using it for 7 weeks and clomid for 2 months straight as I was previously taking it since almost a month or should I give it a break and start after 10 days?



hackskii said:


> Start clomid at 100mg for a week, then do 2 weeks 50mg, followed by another 2 weeks 25mg
> 
> Nolva at 20mg every day for 6 weeks.
> 
> 5000iu vitamin D3 ED.
> 
> You won't need hCG, your numbers are super high in T.


----------



## hackskii

Bilz111 said:


> Should I be worried abt any side effects of clomid and nolva for using it for 7 weeks and clomid for 2 months straight as I was previously taking it since almost a month or should I give it a break and start after 10 days?


What dose were you on the clomid?


----------



## Bilz111

hackskii said:


> What dose were you on the clomid?


I am taking 50mg clomid since 23rd april and taking 10mg nolva since 8th May.


----------



## hackskii

You will be fine, you can run that for a couple of weeks, then drop to 25 for a month if you like.


----------



## Bilz111

hackskii said:


> You will be fine, you can run that for a couple of weeks, then drop to 25 for a month if you like.


So i don't increase the dosage to 100mg like you said in the earlier post along with 20mg nolva?


----------



## hackskii

Bilz111 said:


> So i don't increase the dosage to 100mg like you said in the earlier post along with 20mg nolva?


Well, my fear is that it builds up and can give vision issues, so 50 will just have to do, and that will work well.


----------



## Bilz111

hackskii said:


> More than likely a bit of clomid and an AI would be a good idea.
> 
> T in range, LH low, Estrogen high.


I just got my blood work

Serum Testosterone: 866.4(249-836)

Serum FSH: 3.15(1.4-15.4)

Serum LH: 5.30(1.27-7.8)

Estrogen: 48.0(39.8)

My libido has went down which I think is due to high estrogen?

I am taking 50mg clomid and started taking 10mg nolva since 8th of this month.

So my LH and FSH have responded to clomid but should I taper it down to like 25mg for a week before going off?

As for Estrogen I was planning to continue Nolvadex 10mg till the 30th.

Need your help

TY.


----------



## hackskii

Bilz111 said:


> I just got my blood work
> 
> Serum Testosterone: 866.4(249-836)
> 
> Serum FSH: 3.15(1.4-15.4)
> 
> Serum LH: 5.30(1.27-7.8)
> 
> Estrogen: 48.0(39.8)
> 
> My libido has went down which I think is due to high estrogen?
> 
> I am taking 50mg clomid and started taking 10mg nolva since 8th of this month.
> 
> So my LH and FSH have responded to clomid but should I taper it down to like 25mg for a week before going off?
> 
> As for Estrogen I was planning to continue Nolvadex 10mg till the 30th.
> 
> Need your help
> 
> TY.


Damn, nice numbers.

High estrogen will lower libido or can anyway.

I don't think you need to do much but probably get your E under control, but both are above range so ratio is probably fine.

Low dose AI would be fine, and drop that clomid way down to 12.5mg every other day, just taper it, your LH should drop some, along with everything else.


----------



## Bilz111

hackskii said:


> Damn, nice numbers.
> 
> High estrogen will lower libido or can anyway.
> 
> I don't think you need to do much but probably get your E under control, but both are above range so ratio is probably fine.
> 
> Low dose AI would be fine, and drop that clomid way down to 12.5mg every other day, just taper it, your LH should drop some, along with everything else.


Thankyou for your quick reply.Last Monday and Tuesday I took 20mg of nolva instead of 10mg by mistake and since than my libido and soilder is more like shrunk.So I thought that I might be low on estrogen and got my blood work done and as you said my numbers look good but my soilder is down!!

I have Iron champ HPTA and Volume on hand can I give it a try?


----------



## hackskii

Bilz111 said:


> I have Iron champ HPTA and Volume on hand can I give it a try?


No don't waste your time with this crap.


----------



## Bilz111

hackskii said:


> No don't waste your time with this crap.


OK so what should I do wait it out?


----------



## hackskii

Bilz111 said:


> OK so what should I do wait it out?


I don't even remember what the issues is actually.


----------



## Bilz111

Bilz111 said:


> Thankyou for your quick reply.Last Monday and Tuesday I took 20mg of nolva instead of 10mg by mistake and since than my libido and soilder is more like shrunk.So I thought that I might be low on estrogen and got my blood work done and as you said my numbers look good but my soilder is down!!
> 
> I have Iron champ HPTA and Volume on hand can I give it a try?


I had low tests and low libido along with low fsh and lh.I ran hcg along with clomid 50mg for 23rd April for a month.Things improved but this Monday and Tuesday I took 20mg of nolva instead of 10mg and my libido went down and my soilder feels small and flacid....


----------



## hackskii

Bilz111 said:


> I had low tests and low libido along with low fsh and lh.I ran hcg along with clomid 50mg for 23rd April for a month.Things improved but this Monday and Tuesday I took 20mg of nolva instead of 10mg and my libido went down and my soilder feels small and flacid....


What are your numbers again?


----------



## Bilz111

Serum Testosterone: 866.4(249-836)

Serum FSH: 3.15(1.4-15.4)

Serum LH: 5.30(1.27-7.8)

Estrogen: 48.0(39.8)


----------



## hackskii

Problem probably would be too high E.

But it may be in your head too due to good numbers.


----------



## bogbrush

john_ said:


> hackskii what are your thoughts on d aspartic acid for pct


Waste of time!

New study's suggest no increase in test.


----------



## hackskii

john_ said:


> hackskii what are your thoughts on d aspartic acid for pct


Saw a study that showed it lowered testosterone.

No for PCT


----------



## hackskii

Check your estrogen, but if it was high, LH would have dropped.


----------



## hackskii

You are in range though.

Your LH is high because it is trying to move testosterone, and it will move slowly up.

You will just have to wait.


----------



## Jaguar12

Hey hackskii, I am new to the forum

I am seeking your guidance on some blunder I have done in past while on AAS.

Started First cycle at the start of 2013, since then I gone under 3 more AAS cycles but without PCT (unfortunately).

Last Cycle was Sustenon-250 with Androlic around 2 and half Months ago, since then sex drive and erection is at rock bottom. I went under many Testosterone and other hormonal test in last one year but T is hovering around 250 and libido is completely gone with poor erection

A month ago, I have started a PCT protocol with low dose of premix HCG (i.e) 1000IU once in 3 days. But, after having 10000Iu in around 1 Month, T level does not return to normal value (may be due to low dose). I have started Nolva 40 mg a day from last 7 days.

I have tried restarting HPTA but, seems like nothing is working. I don't know how much time it will take to recover everything.

Please help, I am very depressed.


----------



## hackskii

What was your testosterone level at 1000iu every 3 days?

Did you mix that in bacteriostatic water?

I can tell you what I would do but first lets see the answer.


----------



## rasimfb

hackskii said:


> What was your testosterone level at 1000iu every 3 days?
> 
> Did you mix that in bacteriostatic water?
> 
> I can tell you what I would do but first lets see the answer.


 @hackskii .Hey man , If you remember my thread last week.

I am doing 1000UI HCG every 3 days but I cant find bacteriostatic water so I did with the water that comes in with HCG, and the brand is preglyn.

Would it be alright?


----------



## hackskii

rasimfb said:


> @hackskii .Hey man , If you remember my thread last week.
> 
> I am doing 1000UI HCG every 3 days but I cant find bacteriostatic water so I did with the water that comes in with HCG, and the brand is preglyn.
> 
> Would it be alright?


If sterile water no, if bacteriostatic water then yes, a month mixed in bac water would be fine, not sterile water, and probably not saline.


----------



## Jaguar12

> What was your testosterone level at 1000iu every 3 days?
> 
> Did you mix that in bacteriostatic water?
> 
> I can tell you what I would do but first lets see the answer.


Testosterone was 226 ng/dl around 2 weeks ago after taking 8 shots of 8000 IU hcg  I purchased pre-mixed hcg manufactured by Bharat Serum with the name HUCOG. I doubt over this pre-mix version of HCG then I purchased the powered vial and mixed it with water like liquid (I guess Sodium chloride) provided with packet. But, still I did not taken any shot of mixed solution. Please suggest what I should do from here.

To cover all scenarios, one thing which I would like to add that, I went under tooth extraction and high dose of pain killer for around 2 weeks at same time when I was on HCG. (I read somewhere that painkillers causes T suppression.)

Please look at other aspect, here is results from other test report:

*AFTER 8000IU HCG* in 24 days

(CORTISOL) = 13.9 ug/dl ------Ref Range 6.2 - 19.4

(E2) = 46.2 pg/ml --------------Ref Range 0 - 39.8

(FSH) = 0.89mIU/ml -----------Ref Range 1.4-18.1

(LH) = 1.75 mIU/ml ------------Ref Range 1.5 - 9.3

(PROLACTIN) = 5.83ng/ml ----Ref Range 2.1 - 17.7

(SHBG) = 20.54nmol/L --------Ref Range 14.5 - 48.4

(Tot.Testosterone) =226 ng/dl

*Before HCG*

CORTISOL = 8.53 ug/dl------RR 6.2 - 19.4

FSH = 2.71 mIU/ml-----------RR 1.4-18.1

LH = 3.4 mIU/ml--------------RR 1.5 - 9.3

PROLACTIN= 9.37 ng/ml-----RR 2.1 - 17.7

TSH = 1.91 uIU/ml-----------RR 0.30 - 5.5

FT4 = 1.46 ng/dl-------------RR 0.70 - 1.80

FREE Testosterone = 3.27 pg/ml--------RR 4.25 - 30.37

Total Testosterone = 228.3 ng/dl


----------



## hackskii

Seeing that your E2 is a bit out of range and T under range, you probably won't feel all that well.

25mg clomid a day, and 5mg aromasin a day for a month should put you in range.

It almost looks like your hCG was no good but T is the same and LH dropped so probably might be ok but no movement in T seems strange.

But with the hCG I think you can get away with just the clomid and aromasin, could go higher dose with clomid the first week.


----------



## Jaguar12

hackskii said:


> Seeing that your E2 is a bit out of range and T under range, you probably won't feel all that well.
> 
> 25mg clomid a day, and 5mg aromasin a day for a month should put you in range.
> 
> It almost looks like your hCG was no good but T is the same and LH dropped so probably might be ok but no movement in T seems strange.
> 
> But with the hCG I think you can get away with just the clomid and aromasin, could go higher dose with clomid the first week.


Thanks hackskii for ur valuable Input,

I want to give a try with HCG for 2 more Weeks like 5000 iu/week. After, I will start protocol designed for me. Earlier, I was on pre-mix version of HCG. But, now I will go with powered vial and mixed it with provided solvent with packet. Would it be a bad idea to stick with HCG for prolong period of time as it obstacle to re-start HPTA in long run.

One more question, Effect of HCG will remain same with provided liquid along with packet or it should always be good to mix with bacteriostatic water?


----------



## hackskii

Jaguar12 said:


> Thanks hackskii for ur valuable Input,
> 
> I want to give a try with HCG for 2 more Weeks like 5000 iu/week. After, I will start protocol designed for me. Earlier, I was on pre-mix version of HCG. But, now I will go with powered vial and mixed it with provided solvent with packet. Would it be a bad idea to stick with HCG for prolong period of time as it obstacle to re-start HPTA in long run.
> 
> One more question, Effect of HCG will remain same with provided liquid along with packet or it should always be good to mix with bacteriostatic water?


I would mix with bacteriostatic water, and shoot the hCG every 3 days, but your T is just below range if you were to use hCG then LH will fall.

Nuts are working, just not well.


----------



## chris p

hackskii said:


> I talked to the doc today on the phone and he answered many questions for me in regards to recovery of the HPTA.
> 
> For those of you who don't know what that is it is "Hypothalamus Pituitary Testicular Axis"
> 
> After administration of AAS, you have shutdown of the HPTA. Depending on the meds taken shutdown can be severe and much does depend on the person as well.
> 
> This is the protocol the doc said he used in literally thousands of users with suppressed HPTA.
> 
> First thing, the 500iu a day was not enough to make the testicles do their job, he suggested this was just a waste of time and money.
> 
> He suggests 8 shots of HCG @ 2500iu EOD.
> 
> With this you take 20 mg of nolvadex for 45 days.
> 
> Clomid is also taken but twice a day @ 50mg each dose 12 hours apart.
> 
> The reason for the amounts of HCG (which is the most important part, if the balls don't fire everything else is worthless), is based on his determination to bring the balls back to life, too little wont accomplish this, too much risks damage to the Leydig cells.
> 
> So he basically was saying that you do the HCG and around day 10 of the above protocol, you should get a blood test for testosterone. If it is above 400 or greater then this says the balls will be just fine once you get off the HCG and the Clomid and nolva take over. This will accept the LH that you are putting out to maintain testicular function.
> 
> He used the term like jumping a car. Your battery (Pituitary gland) if low wont start your car (your testicles), if you use another car and jumper cables (HCG) once the car starts your battery (HP part of the HPTA) will keep your car running.
> 
> The clomid by itself he suggested can inhibit either the pituitary or the hypothalamus (can't remember which one) but if taken with nolva this blocks the estrogen receptors so you wont inhibit that.
> 
> So clomid in his protocol is always taken with nolvadex ALWAYS.
> 
> He did mention that sometimes the balls just don't take and then you do the protocol again. He said it was rare that he could not fire up the HPTA.
> 
> He said that beings that I have good size difference (balls), feel good, strength gains, and a greasy face he felt I should have no problems with returning the HPTA.
> 
> Some things he said was tribulis was actually inhibitory on the HPTA, great I wish I found that out after I bought two bottles.
> 
> ZMA, he said if it made me feel good then go for it but it is placebo and the HCG, clomid, nolva was it and all that is needed.
> 
> Talked to him about progesterone and he said never take that if you are a man (the last doc prescribed it to me)
> 
> Sorry aftershock, I forgot to ask him about the GH question he was saying so much I was just trying to listen.
> 
> One thing he did mention (in an article) was that HGH actually helped with the testicular recovery with things and adding that to the Protocol is a good idea and productive.
> 
> Avoid aspirin when on HCG as it kind of ruins the effects.
> 
> He said oxandrolone was suppressive on the HPTA, but Deca and Anadrol were probably the worst in his opinion. I asked him about tren but he had no knowledge as he never used it.
> 
> He did mention that test in itself was not all that suppressive and he has seen guys on 18 months that came off and made a full recovery in 45 days with the above protocol.
> 
> He said one of the best ways was 12 weeks of test, followed by the above protocol, then start another 12 weeks followed by the above protocol with a month off after that then start again.
> 
> He did say that desensitization to HCG took around 2 months, and the dose of 2500 was fine and no damage or desensitization would occur if you followed his protocol.
> 
> There it is.


Hi could you just use pregnyl after a course?


----------



## chris p

Could you just use pregnyl after a course?


----------



## hackskii

chris p said:


> Could you just use pregnyl after a course?


Could but using hCG during will negate the need for after.


----------



## chris p

hackskii said:


> Could but using hCG during will negate the need for after.


Is pregnyl a hcg? And is it best 2 run it throughout the course.


----------



## hackskii

chris p said:


> Is pregnyl a hcg? And is it best 2 run it throughout the course.


Yes


----------



## chris p

hackskii said:


> Yes


Thanks alot mate


----------



## hackskii

john_ said:


> hacksii im using clomid and nolvadex ive noticed testes are getting so big is it normal ? what does it mean that its working also semen volume is high..... i am noticing very bad side effects from clomid and nolvadex .....


Yah, volume will be up, but thin.


----------



## sjbuilder

Hacksii - This has been a great and very useful write up. Much appreciated.

I'm on day 45, only mod was 2000 iu hcg shots and i honestly feel great after being on for years. It was rough at first but its much better now. I work two jobs and at some points early on it was killer going to the second one in the evening feeling drained.

Just curious what if anyone on here can comment on how this impacted their sperm counts. That is the reason i decided to do the PCT after TrT for a few years.I read a few articles saying in 50 to 70 days the counts should be restored even if they were at 0


----------



## Frozen1987

Hi Hacksii

Really appreciate the great work you've done here for all of us. Could you please clarify to me, why it's not possible to start shooting HGC in the end of the cycle and do the last shoot of HGC in the same time when the AAS leave the system in order to begin restoration earlier, as the usage of HGC on pct doesn't give to function pituitary/hypothalamus axis mimic it. I try to be more clear: currently I am on 16 week cycle of Test enantate (750mg/week). If I understand correctly since the last jab it takes almost 21 days for things to be out. I try to understand, whether it's possible to start shooting HGC on the 6 day after the last jab of test, so after my last inject of HGC (hoping that my testicles began to work), there is nothing left in the system, clomind and nolva would begin to help me to restore putiatary/hypothalamus axis immediately, as in case if I begin PCT recovery 17days after the last jab of AAS, It takes longer (I will wait at least 21 till the AAS left the system, and then 15 days of using the HGC)

And second question:. Whether it's needed to make a break in the usage of 1000/week, in case if the cycle exceed for instance more than 5 months or this volume doesn't lead to desentization. Whether taking of anastrasole during the cycle help to avoid desentization?

Many thanks in advance


----------



## rambo18

What would you say for accunate while on pct mate


----------



## Jaguar12

hackskii said:


> Seeing that your E2 is a bit out of range and T under range, you probably won't feel all that well.
> 
> 25mg clomid a day, and 5mg aromasin a day for a month should put you in range.
> 
> It almost looks like your hCG was no good but T is the same and LH dropped so probably might be ok but no movement in T seems strange.
> 
> But with the hCG I think you can get away with just the clomid and aromasin, could go higher dose with clomid the first week.


Hi hackskii & everyone on forum

Thanks for your valuable Input!

Just to update my progress on SERM, I was on Nolvadex and Clomid from last 40 days, started with Nolva 40 mg/day and bring it to 10 mg. Similarly, Clomid with 100mg/day to 25 mg now

Results of my blood work, after this protocol. Here are the results:

· Total Testosterone:------------------564.6, RR (241 - 827 ng/dl) was on 226.0

· ESTRADIOL/OESTROGEN (E2)---74.4, RR (0 - 39.8 pg/ml) was on 46.2

· LH ---------------------------------------14.01, RR (1.5 - 9.3 mIU/ml) was on 1.75

· FSH---------------------------------------6.92, RR (1.4-18.1 mIU/ml) was on 0.89

· SHBG-----------------------------------20.18, RR (14.5 - 48.4 nmol/L) was on 20.54

· DHEA----------------------------------197.40, RR (160 - 449 μg/dl)

· TSH---------------------------------------1.45, RR (0.30 - 5.5 μIU/ml)

Although my testosterone level gone up by 338.6 ng/dl in 40 days protocol, but libido is still low. I can get erection but I sometime have a hard time maintaining it. Seems like problem is now with ESTRADIOL as E2 level is out of range.

Please suggest me from here, should I continue with Clomid and Nolva for few more weeks or it is better to control Estrogen level by using Arimidex. If yes, then what should be recommended dose. Please help
Thanks in advance!


----------



## Jaguar12

Guys....? Can anyone please guide me on this.


----------



## hackskii

Sorry, never got the email notifications for the thread, seems the site has been upgraded.

Jaguar, it looks like your estrogen is too high, get that in range and things will be better.

To the other guys, I always recommend using hCG during, to avoid all the mess with trying to get the nuts online after.

Yes you can restore function at end of cycle but at 750 shot of enanthate, it will be active for about a month.

So, 2000iu every 3 days, after 30 days, you can start the clomid, nolva should be in the mix while on hCG.


----------



## Jaguar12

hackskii said:


> Sorry, never got the email notifications for the thread, seems the site has been upgraded.
> 
> Jaguar, it looks like your estrogen is too high, get that in range and things will be better.


Thats allright hackskii, no problem

I have one question as I am on clomid 25mg/day and to control Estrogen should I go with aromasin or arimidex? Please suggest dosage.

Thanks


----------



## GymClassHero

hackskii said:


> I talked to the doc today on the phone and he answered many questions for me in regards to recovery of the HPTA.
> 
> For those of you who don't know what that is it is "Hypothalamus Pituitary Testicular Axis"
> 
> After administration of AAS, you have shutdown of the HPTA. Depending on the meds taken shutdown can be severe and much does depend on the person as well.
> 
> This is the protocol the doc said he used in literally thousands of users with suppressed HPTA.
> 
> First thing, the 500iu a day was not enough to make the testicles do their job, he suggested this was just a waste of time and money.
> 
> He suggests 8 shots of HCG @ 2500iu EOD.
> 
> With this you take 20 mg of nolvadex for 45 days.
> 
> Clomid is also taken but twice a day @ 50mg each dose 12 hours apart.
> 
> The reason for the amounts of HCG (which is the most important part, if the balls don't fire everything else is worthless), is based on his determination to bring the balls back to life, too little wont accomplish this, too much risks damage to the Leydig cells.
> 
> So he basically was saying that you do the HCG and around day 10 of the above protocol, you should get a blood test for testosterone. If it is above 400 or greater then this says the balls will be just fine once you get off the HCG and the Clomid and nolva take over. This will accept the LH that you are putting out to maintain testicular function.
> 
> He used the term like jumping a car. Your battery (Pituitary gland) if low wont start your car (your testicles), if you use another car and jumper cables (HCG) once the car starts your battery (HP part of the HPTA) will keep your car running.
> 
> The clomid by itself he suggested can inhibit either the pituitary or the hypothalamus (can't remember which one) but if taken with nolva this blocks the estrogen receptors so you wont inhibit that.
> 
> So clomid in his protocol is always taken with nolvadex ALWAYS.
> 
> He did mention that sometimes the balls just don't take and then you do the protocol again. He said it was rare that he could not fire up the HPTA.
> 
> He said that beings that I have good size difference (balls), feel good, strength gains, and a greasy face he felt I should have no problems with returning the HPTA.
> 
> Some things he said was tribulis was actually inhibitory on the HPTA, great I wish I found that out after I bought two bottles.
> 
> ZMA, he said if it made me feel good then go for it but it is placebo and the HCG, clomid, nolva was it and all that is needed.
> 
> Talked to him about progesterone and he said never take that if you are a man (the last doc prescribed it to me)
> 
> Sorry aftershock, I forgot to ask him about the GH question he was saying so much I was just trying to listen.
> 
> One thing he did mention (in an article) was that HGH actually helped with the testicular recovery with things and adding that to the Protocol is a good idea and productive.
> 
> Avoid aspirin when on HCG as it kind of ruins the effects.
> 
> He said oxandrolone was suppressive on the HPTA, but Deca and Anadrol were probably the worst in his opinion. I asked him about tren but he had no knowledge as he never used it.
> 
> He did mention that test in itself was not all that suppressive and he has seen guys on 18 months that came off and made a full recovery in 45 days with the above protocol.
> 
> He said one of the best ways was 12 weeks of test, followed by the above protocol, then start another 12 weeks followed by the above protocol with a month off after that then start again.
> 
> He did say that desensitization to HCG took around 2 months, and the dose of 2500 was fine and no damage or desensitization would occur if you followed his protocol.
> 
> There it is.


Hi @hackskii I won't bore you with my reasons, I've done 1 shot of test e at 500mg and want to stop, and I've also done 2 500iu shots of HCG. Do I need to PCT? I have both nolva and clomid


----------



## Sustanon Steve

You won't need PCT mate after only 1 shot so don't worry


----------



## Sustanon Steve

Is this not a sticky anymore or is my tapatalk being gay?


----------



## hackskii

You wont need to do anything after only one shot.


----------



## Bilz111

Hey hackskii,

Can clomid 50 mg and nolva 20mg on pct cause penile shrinkage?

I did a pct due to low tests after a cycle and during pct it has shrunk.

My pct ended in 23 may and after pct I had goods numbers but libido was still an issue.

So I had my blood tests done last week

Serum Testosterone : 282

Prolactin :7

Estrogen: 22

Fsh:1.00

LH: 0.9

What should I do now?


----------



## Silverfoxxs

Need advice from @Hacksii please.

I am going to run a Test - Deca - Dbol cycle and i wanted your input on how best to use HCG?

Wk(1-6) 30mg dbol

Wk (1-13) Test E 600mg

Wk (1-13) Deca 400mg

I know from your previous post thats its best to run HCG during a cycle rather than in the PCT..

As i am reading conflicting amounts Of HCG usage, i just wanted your advice on the actual amount of HCG to use and when to start administering it.. (which week) and when to stop.. and when to start PCT and finally looking at my cycle, what PCT would you recommend for optimal recovery.. previously i have only used Nolva...

Oh and would you recommend i use an AI during the cycle? If so how much and for how many weeks?

Thanks alot for all your help and support Hacksii.. its invaluable to us ALL.. much appreciated..


----------



## GymClassHero

hackskii said:


> I talked to the doc today on the phone and he answered many questions for me in regards to recovery of the HPTA.
> 
> For those of you who don't know what that is it is "Hypothalamus Pituitary Testicular Axis"
> 
> After administration of AAS, you have shutdown of the HPTA. Depending on the meds taken shutdown can be severe and much does depend on the person as well.
> 
> This is the protocol the doc said he used in literally thousands of users with suppressed HPTA.
> 
> First thing, the 500iu a day was not enough to make the testicles do their job, he suggested this was just a waste of time and money.
> 
> He suggests 8 shots of HCG @ 2500iu EOD.
> 
> With this you take 20 mg of nolvadex for 45 days.
> 
> Clomid is also taken but twice a day @ 50mg each dose 12 hours apart.
> 
> The reason for the amounts of HCG (which is the most important part, if the balls don't fire everything else is worthless), is based on his determination to bring the balls back to life, too little wont accomplish this, too much risks damage to the Leydig cells.
> 
> So he basically was saying that you do the HCG and around day 10 of the above protocol, you should get a blood test for testosterone. If it is above 400 or greater then this says the balls will be just fine once you get off the HCG and the Clomid and nolva take over. This will accept the LH that you are putting out to maintain testicular function.
> 
> He used the term like jumping a car. Your battery (Pituitary gland) if low wont start your car (your testicles), if you use another car and jumper cables (HCG) once the car starts your battery (HP part of the HPTA) will keep your car running.
> 
> The clomid by itself he suggested can inhibit either the pituitary or the hypothalamus (can't remember which one) but if taken with nolva this blocks the estrogen receptors so you wont inhibit that.
> 
> So clomid in his protocol is always taken with nolvadex ALWAYS.
> 
> He did mention that sometimes the balls just don't take and then you do the protocol again. He said it was rare that he could not fire up the HPTA.
> 
> He said that beings that I have good size difference (balls), feel good, strength gains, and a greasy face he felt I should have no problems with returning the HPTA.
> 
> Some things he said was tribulis was actually inhibitory on the HPTA, great I wish I found that out after I bought two bottles.
> 
> ZMA, he said if it made me feel good then go for it but it is placebo and the HCG, clomid, nolva was it and all that is needed.
> 
> Talked to him about progesterone and he said never take that if you are a man (the last doc prescribed it to me)
> 
> Sorry aftershock, I forgot to ask him about the GH question he was saying so much I was just trying to listen.
> 
> One thing he did mention (in an article) was that HGH actually helped with the testicular recovery with things and adding that to the Protocol is a good idea and productive.
> 
> Avoid aspirin when on HCG as it kind of ruins the effects.
> 
> He said oxandrolone was suppressive on the HPTA, but Deca and Anadrol were probably the worst in his opinion. I asked him about tren but he had no knowledge as he never used it.
> 
> He did mention that test in itself was not all that suppressive and he has seen guys on 18 months that came off and made a full recovery in 45 days with the above protocol.
> 
> He said one of the best ways was 12 weeks of test, followed by the above protocol, then start another 12 weeks followed by the above protocol with a month off after that then start again.
> 
> He did say that desensitization to HCG took around 2 months, and the dose of 2500 was fine and no damage or desensitization would occur if you followed his protocol.
> 
> There it is.


Hi Hackskii.

I'm on my last week of test e now after a 12 week cycle. I've asked before bbut I just want to double check on my pct.

I ran hcg throughout at 1000iu per week split into 2 doses, do I still need to blast 2500iu eod at the end of my cycle? If so how soon do I start?

Thanks


----------



## hackskii

GymClassHero said:


> Hi Hackskii.
> 
> I'm on my last week of test e now after a 12 week cycle. I've asked before bbut I just want to double check on my pct.
> 
> I ran hcg throughout at 1000iu per week split into 2 doses, do I still need to blast 2500iu eod at the end of my cycle? If so how soon do I start?
> 
> Thanks


No, you will start your SERM's 2 weeks from last jab, and keep the hCG during those 2 weeks.


----------



## flippyfloppy33

Hackskii, had low t about a year ago but have been off all gear for about that time. Since, my T has naturally increased to the low 500's (got labs again this month).

Although T has increased I still don't feel all there. Nuts never fully came back in size and my sex drive/energy has been down.

I there anything you could recommend for fixing this? Also, I have issues with tomaxifen, could I supplement torem with any recommendations you might have?

Total t-517ng/dl (250-1100)

LH-2.0mIU/ml (1.5-9.3)

FSH-2.4mIU/ml (1.8-8.0)

let me know if there is any other labs you need! Thank you.


----------



## hackskii

Nothing, but I would add 5000iu vitamin D every day.

I would not inhibit estrogen unless it was out of range or upper range.


----------



## mmichael

> Nothing, but I would add 5000iu vitamin D every day.
> 
> I would not inhibit estrogen unless it was out of range or upper range.


I read ur entire post. It looks great. Lets take a scenerio though, say someone was B.C for 3-5 years. The entire time that guy ran MOSTLY 250IU e3d or 500IU a week non-stop regradless of cruise/Blast phases. Then around years 5, they choose to come off. Would they skip the entire HCG protocol u said and just run the 1-45 Days of 20mg Nolva and 100mg Clomid Split 50-50, then do bloods?


----------



## hackskii

mmichael said:


> I read ur entire post. It looks great. Lets take a scenerio though, say someone was B.C for 3-5 years. The entire time that guy ran MOSTLY 250IU e3d or 500IU a week non-stop regradless of cruise/Blast phases. Then around years 5, they choose to come off. Would they skip the entire HCG protocol u said and just run the 1-45 Days of 20mg Nolva and 100mg Clomid Split 50-50, then do bloods?


That use of hCG during is not enough to keep testicular function.

But if testicular function was maintained, then only the SERMs would then be needed.


----------



## mmichael

> That use of hCG during is not enough to keep testicular function.
> 
> But if testicular function was maintained, then only the SERMs would then be needed.


so even with the use of HCG 500IU PW, I still need to do the blast of 2500IU EOD ?

Isn't that basically just saying that it's a waste to run hcg during B.C if i'm still going to need to blast it in the end, even after running it all the time? I always thought it would help a lot in the end, but according the way u said, it seems not really. What is HCG only more beneficial for SHORT cycles? quick recovery


----------



## sponge2015

mmichael said:


> so even with the use of HCG 500IU PW, I still need to do the blast of 2500IU EOD ?
> 
> Isn't that basically just saying that it's a waste to run hcg during B.C if i'm still going to need to blast it in the end, even after running it all the time? I always thought it would help a lot in the end, but according the way u said, it seems not really. What is HCG only more beneficial for SHORT cycles? quick recovery


Think he's saying that 500iu a week isn't enough.

I used 1000iu a week which hackskii has always recommended.


----------



## sponge2015

hackskii said:


> That use of hCG during is not enough to keep testicular function.
> 
> But if testicular function was maintained, then only the SERMs would then be needed.


To confirm, is 1000iu a week was used would a blast still be needed at the end?

I've been on a while now but have used 1000iu a week since week 1 religiously so not sure if I should blast the hcg or just go straight into the clomid/nolva


----------



## hackskii

sponge2015 said:


> To confirm, is 1000iu a week was used would a blast still be needed at the end?
> 
> I've been on a while now but have used 1000iu a week since week 1 religiously so not sure if I should blast the hcg or just go straight into the clomid/nolva


Actually 250 iu EOD kept 93% of testicular ITT function.


----------



## hackskii

mmichael said:


> so even with the use of HCG 500IU PW, I still need to do the blast of 2500IU EOD ?
> 
> Isn't that basically just saying that it's a waste to run hcg during B.C if i'm still going to need to blast it in the end, even after running it all the time? I always thought it would help a lot in the end, but according the way u said, it seems not really. What is HCG only more beneficial for SHORT cycles? quick recovery


Never a waste of time to keep testicular function, never, ever.


----------



## hackskii

mmichael said:


> so even with the use of HCG 500IU PW, I still need to do the blast of 2500IU EOD ?
> 
> Isn't that basically just saying that it's a waste to run hcg during B.C if i'm still going to need to blast it in the end, even after running it all the time? I always thought it would help a lot in the end, but according the way u said, it seems not really. What is HCG only more beneficial for SHORT cycles? quick recovery


hCG was not enough to keep testicular function at 500iu per week, double that would be a better option.


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## sponge2015

hackskii said:


> Actually 250 iu EOD kept 93% of testicular ITT function.


Huh? All I asked is if 1000iu of hcg was used weekly from start to finish, would a blast of Hcg still be needed before commencing clomid/nolva


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## hackskii

sponge2015 said:


> Huh? All I asked is if 1000iu of hcg was used weekly from start to finish, would a blast of Hcg still be needed before commencing clomid/nolva


No, just got confused for a moment man, its all good.


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## herb

that's some great info pal. I'm looking to come off for aswell


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## CraigOBrien

Hi *hackskii, I ran deca and test400 @ 600mg deca and 800mg test per week. Been off for about 2 months and did a pct of hcg @1500iu eod for 20 days with clomid and nolva @ 50/20 for 40 days. Still havent recovered, do you think running another pct using this protocol would help recover? *


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## hackskii

How long on the deca did you run?

You may want to get some labs.

Can you get an erection, or have sex?


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## CraigOBrien

hackskii said:


> How long on the deca did you run?
> 
> You may want to get some labs.
> 
> Can you get an erection, or have sex?


Ran deca for 9 weeks and test for 12. I can get an erection but not fully and struggle to keep it up, but i've been using proviron whenever I have sex at 75mg every day with no suppression and can somewhat keep it up but when i come off cant get it up properly. Can only get blood tests after your cycle and thats the only needle exchange place thats around me and i dont fancy going to my doctor and having it on my record


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## hackskii

You can try clomid at 25mg per day for a month.

But without bloods to see what is going on it would be hard to say if it is the nuts or not.


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## CraigOBrien

hackskii said:


> You can try clomid at 25mg per day for a month.
> 
> But without bloods to see what is going on it would be hard to say if it is the nuts or not.


Seen the doc today, he said to wait 2 weeks to see were bloods are at before doing anything


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## DelDoesIT

My friend never ran ran hcg threw his cycle, he is a month or so away from his pct and was only going to use nolva and clomid 2 weeks after his last shot, can the hcg be useful here or is he already completely shut down because the the hcg never got a chance to keep the nuts stimulating? Still trying to learn the best way I can for my pct shortly aswell so cheers if anyone can shed some light on it for me :huh:


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## hackskii

Depending on how long he was on, and the length of the cycle, I doubt he will recover with just 2 weeks of nolva, and yes hCG should be in the mix anyway, regardless if during, or after, depending on the length of cycle.


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## DelDoesIT

hackskii said:


> Depending on how long he was on, and the length of the cycle, I doubt he will recover with just 2 weeks of nolva, and yes hCG should be in the mix anyway, regardless if during, or after, depending on the length of cycle.


I meant 2 weeks after his last shot of test, he intends to do 5 weeks of clomid 100/100/75/75/50 nolva 40/40/20/20/10 (that's what he usually does for pct) and wants to run his hcg for pct for its faster recovery. He has been on for 5 months maybe, just test e @ 600mg he has a wife and kids so he doesn't mess with other aas from what he told me. In your first post you said 8 shots of 2500iu hcg eod, that would cost a bomb lol. Is there a different way of blasting it at the end of a cycle without the need for that amount of hcg 8x a day?


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## hackskii

DelDoesIT said:


> I meant 2 weeks after his last shot of test, he intends to do 5 weeks of clomid 100/100/75/75/50 nolva 40/40/20/20/10 (that's what he usually does for pct) and wants to run his hcg for pct for its faster recovery. He has been on for 5 months maybe, just test e @ 600mg he has a wife and kids so he doesn't mess with other aas from what he told me. In your first post you said 8 shots of 2500iu hcg eod, that would cost a bomb lol. Is there a different way of blasting it at the end of a cycle without the need for that amount of hcg 8x a day?


One problem is the fact 600mg will take longer than 2 weeks to clear his system, adding in the SERM's wont do anything as his testosterone levels will be too high for the gonadotropins to start.

At this time during clearance time of gear he can do some hCG.

2000iu every 3 days would work well for a month.


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## Ernie

Hi Hacksii,

I just finished my pct two days ago and I didn't recover at all. No libido, depression and so on. My cycle was 600 test e, 300 tren e and 600 mast. I also used 250iu hcg x 2 a week (while on cycle), 25mg aromasin a day and 20mg nolvadex to prevent gyno. I was planning to run this cycle for 10 weeks, but I stopped it after week 7 as I got injury and couldn't train. So I started PCT after 2 weeks of my last jab 100/100/100/50 clomid and 40/40/40/20 nolva. However, at the end of my pct I lost libido completely and I can't get erection at all.I also feel that my testicles are 3 times smaller than before. Can you please give me advice what to do next? Should I do another pct? If yes, when should I start? I really appreciate your help.


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## hackskii

Looks like you did not use enough hCG during as you used just about half as much as you needed, 250iu would work, but every other day more like.

Not only that but the 600mg test E could take a month to clear, 2 weeks you started while the gear was still in your system full throttle.


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## Sebbek

hackskii said:


> Looks like you did not use enough hCG during as you used just about half as much as you needed, 250iu would work, but every other day more like.
> 
> Not only that but the 600mg test E could take a month to clear, 2 weeks you started while the gear was still in your system full throttle.


Those mistakes r so common


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## irobot

Hi Hackskii, fantastic thread, can't believe it has been running so long, wish I had found it ages ago. Bit of background, I am 44 and have done a number of courses over the last 20 years many of the early ones based on ignorance resulting in a bit of gyno which could have been easily solved with a bit of knowledge. This meant that most subsequent courses were pretty minor non aromatising steroids. This time however I really wanted to make an effort to get back in great shape so I did a 10 week course of 100ml of propionate and 75ml of tren a eod and then added in winstrol for the last month. This time I had an ai in place from the start and the course went great, looked like I did when I was 30. This is where my ignorance kicked back in, the course I was following suggested a pct of hcg @500iu for ten days, unfortunately I was going out of the country so took 1000iu for 5 days and then followed this with nolva I had left about 15 days worth. I have then been taking Gasparis nolva X for 25 days. It all seemed to be going quite well until I got sick and was on anti biotics for a week. Totally lost libido and balls and sack seemed to shrink upwards, can still get an erection, more a case of if I can be bothered. I don.t think I am in such a bad way as some of the unfortunate guys on here as I don't think I am totally shut down but was hoping you could give us an idea of how to get back on track. Sorry about thelong post but thanks for any feedback.


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## Ernie

I understand that I made some mistakes... However, what's done is done... Can you please let me know what are my options? should I see my doctor or should I try HCG blast followed by clomid and nolva ?


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## Gnats Chuff

irobot said:


> Hi Hackskii, fantastic thread, can't believe it has been running so long, wish I had found it ages ago. Bit of background, I am 44 and have done a number of courses over the last 20 years many of the early ones based on ignorance resulting in a bit of gyno which could have been easily solved with a bit of knowledge. This meant that most subsequent courses were pretty minor non aromatising steroids. This time however I really wanted to make an effort to get back in great shape so I did a 10 week course of 100ml of propionate and 75ml of tren a eod and then added in winstrol for the last month. This time I had an ai in place from the start and the course went great, looked like I did when I was 30. This is where my ignorance kicked back in, the course I was following suggested a pct of hcg @500iu for ten days, unfortunately I was going out of the country so took 1000iu for 5 days and then followed this with nolva I had left about 15 days worth. I have then been taking Gasparis nolva X for 25 days. It all seemed to be going quite well until I got sick and was on anti biotics for a week. Totally lost libido and balls and sack seemed to shrink upwards, can still get an erection, more a case of if I can be bothered. I don.t think I am in such a bad way as some of the unfortunate guys on here as I don't think I am totally shut down but was hoping you could give us an idea of how to get back on track. Sorry about thelong post but thanks for any feedback.


Mate, Gaspari Nova is in no way good enough for a PCT. The product you have bought is not Nolvadex (Tamoxifen) which is commonly used as a PCT med. You have bought an over the counter "Testosterone Booster" with a clever name to make you think you're getting Nolvadex.

Over the counter PCTs aren't worth a penny.

I'm nowhere near clued up enough to advise you as well as some on here but at the minimum you will need Clomid taken at 100mg every day for 4 weeks and id also get some real Nolvadex too, run at 20mg every day for 4 weeks also.

It may be beneficial to blast some hcg before starting the above drugs but I'm out of my depth advising on dosages etc for this.


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## hackskii

Ernie said:


> I understand that I made some mistakes... However, what's done is done... Can you please let me know what are my options? should I see my doctor or should I try HCG blast followed by clomid and nolva ?


Ideally labs would be the best way to suggest the path to take, but 7 week cycles are fairly tame, but the time the gear took to clear took additional 4 weeks or so.

I would use hCG at 1000iu every 3 days by 7 shots, use 20mg nolva during this time, then once you are off the hCG add in clomid at 100mg for the first 2 weeks, then drop to 50mg for 2 weeks per day.

That should about do it, the hCG should make you feel pretty good by at least day 2 or so.


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## Desohigh

Hey Hackskii;

I need help for my cycle total duration 8weeks.

Test prop 50mg EOD

Tren ace 100mg EOD

Arimidex 0.5mg EOD

Cabaser 10mg E3D

HCG 350iux2 E4D (with test tren injections i get it with subq)

After last injection of prop and HCG, i drop everything, after 3-4 days when my body cleared from all hcg,test and tren, I go nolva clomid

clomid 100/50/50/50

nolva 40/20/20/20

I need to keep my testicular function and my recovery fast.

What you think?

Also is it possible to inject HCG with prop+ace?


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## hackskii

No need for Cabaser

Run the hCG at 500iu every 3 days, and run it on your last shot day of the gear as well, then you can follow your numbers but nolva wont be needed at 40mg first week ED, just use 20mg

I would also run 5000iu vitamin D ED.


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## irobot

Gnats, I know you are right, wasn't using nolva x as a pct more as a supplement. Never had trouble after a course before and mistakenly thought the hcg and nolvadex that I took would be enough. This was a bigger course than I have took in the past and I have just got away with it before. Thanks for the input.


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## hackskii

irobot said:


> Hi Hackskii, fantastic thread, can't believe it has been running so long, wish I had found it ages ago. Bit of background, I am 44 and have done a number of courses over the last 20 years many of the early ones based on ignorance resulting in a bit of gyno which could have been easily solved with a bit of knowledge. This meant that most subsequent courses were pretty minor non aromatising steroids. This time however I really wanted to make an effort to get back in great shape so I did a 10 week course of 100ml of propionate and 75ml of tren a eod and then added in winstrol for the last month. This time I had an ai in place from the start and the course went great, looked like I did when I was 30. This is where my ignorance kicked back in, the course I was following suggested a pct of hcg @500iu for ten days, unfortunately I was going out of the country so took 1000iu for 5 days and then followed this with nolva I had left about 15 days worth. I have then been taking Gasparis nolva X for 25 days. It all seemed to be going quite well until I got sick and was on anti biotics for a week. Totally lost libido and balls and sack seemed to shrink upwards, can still get an erection, more a case of if I can be bothered. I don.t think I am in such a bad way as some of the unfortunate guys on here as I don't think I am totally shut down but was hoping you could give us an idea of how to get back on track. Sorry about thelong post but thanks for any feedback.


Sure, 100mg clomid for 2 weeks, then drop that to 50mg for another 2 weeks, you should be close there.

I would also take 5000iu vitamin D per day, and 25mg of zinc per day.


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## irobot

hackskii said:


> Sure, 100mg clomid for 2 weeks, then drop that to 50mg for another 2 weeks, you should be close there.
> 
> I would also take 5000iu vitamin D per day, and 25mg of zinc per day.


Thanks, Hackskii no need for any hcg or nolva now, cheers.


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## GymClassHero

hackskii said:


> No need for Cabaser
> 
> Run the hCG at 500iu every 3 days, and run it on your last shot day of the gear as well, then you can follow your numbers but nolva wont be needed at 40mg first week ED, just use 20mg
> 
> I would also run 5000iu vitamin D ED.


 Hi Hackskii. Would running 500iu 2 x per week during a 24 week cycle cause desensitisation? That's what I've done. Is this correct?


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## hackskii

GymClassHero said:


> Hi Hackskii. Would running 500iu 2 x per week during a 24 week cycle cause desensitisation? That's what I've done. Is this correct?


 It could, but most likely not as the stimulation is not over what natural production produces.

Answer no.


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## GymClassHero

hackskii said:


> It could, but most likely not as the stimulation is not over what natural production produces.
> 
> Answer no.


 Thanks mate. I'm using tamoxifen 20mg/day just for belt and braces.


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## GymClassHero

hackskii said:


> It could, but most likely not as the stimulation is not over what natural production produces.
> 
> Answer no.


 @hackskii Please could you voice your opinion on freezing HCG? I use pregnyl which as you know only comes with sterile water, which I am unable to acquire. From my experience it's fine, my nuts swell up and my semen volume increases. Can you shed any of your expert knowledge on this? I know Dr. Scally isn't particularly for it, but Dr. John Crisler says you can do it without decreasing it's potency. I know you're not a Doctor but just wanted to hear your .02.


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## hackskii

It is not something that I would do unless I had to, bacteriostatic water lasts up to about 6 weeks, so any prep of 5000iu pregnyl would be fine with bac water.

Freezing should be ok, but if that was the only option then I would have to go with that.

No studies on this topic exist, only opinions, and judging from that, I have not seen anything negative in that approach.


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## bobster2k

Hi hackskii, I've been reading through some of your threads advising long time users looking to restart. I've noticed your dosage and timing recommendations have changed over the years. Can you please give me your most recent wisdom regarding PCT doses for someone recovering from 3 years of trt and intermittent cycles. Also I've seen you recommend HMG/HCG combo in other threads, but not here. Why is that? Thanks!

Also I should mention I tried a power pct about 1.5 years ago with no success. 2500iu eod for 16days then clomid/nolva combo for 30 more days. I think it was something like 100mg clomid per day first two weeks then 50. Same for nolva 40 then 20. Blood test on day 45 had my test around 760 fsh and lh both between 6 and 8 I believe. Thought I was good to go. A month later it all crashed down. Test at 125, lh at 1 and fsh at .4. Waited a few more months and just couldn't take it anymore and got back on trt. In hind sight I don't think 6 months was long enough and my lack of patience got the best of me. Also I should have got bloods after HCG and before clomid. Money is no object, so I hope the addition of HMG and a stricter diet, that I can do it this time. Also I started trt because I used to cycle and thought it would just be easier instead of pct.


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## hackskii

Protocol changed because the frequency of shooting hCG was too short, due to its second spike of testosterone between 48 and 72 hours. So, the dosing every 3 days works better with hCG.
hMG has been around a long time but was very expensive, this supports the FSH whereas the hCG does not, making recovery a bit better due to some unknown reason of FSH and leydig cell support.

Also, while on hCG LH will not rise, in fact fall, even in the light of any SERM's, AI's, or any drugs, so using clomid during the time of hCG therapy is pointless, but not totally useless as it can move FSH up some, but clomid is one of those things that you can't take forever without getting some serious vision issues, so this is why I recommend not using clomid during hCG, only nolva.

It may be likely you used either a long acting ester, or deca when you tried to recover, it is super inhibitive and months later it can continue to suppress.

I always suggest to slowly taper the dose of clomid for instance, because lets say you are double over reference range of LH, and you just cold turkey the clomid, your LH will fall, and even that may make one not feel so good.

But, all your questions I have answered in other posts regarding recovery.


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## chaista

Hey @hackskii first i want to first thank you for this thread.

I followed the protocol as described in your post and after a month ending pct I got labs done, I was wondering if you could give your opinion on the results and if there's anything I should do;

FOLLICLE STIM. HORMONE 0.6 IU/L (1.5-12.4)

LUTEINISING HORMONE 5.0 IU/L (1.7-8.6)

PROLACTIN 335 mIU/L (86-324)

SEX HORMONE BINDING GLOB 77 nmol/L (16-55)

TESTOSTERONE 24.5 nmol/L (7.6-31.4)

Testosterone/SHBG Ratio 31.8 (24-104)


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## lysos

Hi,

I need help with cycle of my friend.

His cycle

1-10 test cyp 250mg e4d

1-4 dbol 20 mg

10-18 test prop e2d 100 mg

10-14 dbol 50 mg

16-18 winstrol 50mg e2d

Now He is before the winny. What PCT should he take ???

HCG Was only once 2500 iu e3d around 8 week.


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## Pablos

@hackskii

starting my test e cycle and anavar cycle soon.

i will be taking 600mg per week of test and running the var for 5 weeks.

At the minute i have tamoxifen,anastrozle and 10000iu of hcg.

i want to make sure i have everything nailed down before i start a cycle.

can you or anybody advise me on what way to take the hcg during or after?clomid or nolva?how much and how long?

thanks


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## therock123

hackskii said:


> The doc assured me this is not the case. He goes against Swale on this one big time.
> 
> He used 1000iu of HCG twice a week for his guys on TRT. Then he stops after 8 weeks for 4 weeks to rid the desentization issue.
> 
> Even then desentization is temporary too.
> 
> He did say that on an occasion or two he even used more HCG to treat the hypogonadism then tapered the dose back down.
> 
> He has treated thousands on the above protocol with no problems.
> 
> From my perspective 500iu a day after 16 days did less than just one shot of 2500iu.
> 
> If we do the math that would be 8000iu compared to just 2500iu and the 2500 did more than all the 16 days.
> 
> He was very confidant that I will not have problems.
> 
> This dude is probably the top guy in the States or on the world on his recovery protocol for AAS induced HPTA shutdown.
> 
> His whole deal was getting the testicles back in order, outside of that recovery was pointless.
> 
> He alluded to the pituitary and hypothalamus as no problem getting it to fire, the testicles is his concern.
> 
> I'm new to this board .I found this article and have a question regarding HPTA Shutdown.What is the best way to start your system back up while still on 50 mg Test Prop and 100 mg Primo ed.Is there a protocol for HCG ,nolva and clomid? Do you need to be off for this to work.I assume yes but was wondering.
> 
> 2500, my balls are getting massive and I have only had 2 shots, 3rd one will be tonight. Getting good workouts, stronger in the gym, greasy face, morning wood, sex drive comming back, etc.
> 
> I am pumped about this and feel the doc is right on the money.
> 
> Too little HCG wont do the job and it just keeps you shutdown longer anyway.
> 
> He said it could take 6-18 months to recover with just cessation of AAS alone, 45 days recovery of the HPTA with his protocol.
> 
> He did say that out of thousands of guys only a few didnt recover.
> 
> He attributed that to possibly they had low levels prior to AAS use.
> 
> I am trying so hard to get this dude to this board.


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## therock123

Does this doc have any books or articles out That we can read?


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## KOZMO

so you are supposed to be able to accomplish the same results with clomid alone?


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## edinburgheire

Any updates from anyone?


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## The Fix3r

hackskii said:


> Start them all the same day, I would do the clomid and nolva in the morning, then clomid in the afternoon (both 50mg), then before bed, do the HCG.
> 
> If that keeps you awake then shoot in the morning, I cant shoot at night but I found this works the best.
> 
> Tribestin is poo poo, I waisted much money on that and the only thing I got from it is loss of money.
> 
> Save your money.
> 
> If you want supps, then take 1000iu vitamin E every day, take ZMA at night before bed empty stomach, this will help you sleep if the HCG is affecting things.
> 
> Melatonin is a great addition to aid in sleep too, and possible GH release when sleeping.
> 
> Cant tell you if it would aid in recovery, but it is suspect HGH is helpful.
> 
> Plus at 41 your melatonin levels will be compromised some anyway.
> 
> Just make sure that when you start your PCT that you have not been on for a while and make sure the stuff is cleared.
> 
> If you like you can give me a PM and tell me how much and how long you were on.
> 
> You should be fine, dont worry, stress wont help you here, you will be fine.
> 
> You would not need anywhere near the amounts if you use it during than not.
> 
> You can continue using HCG along with an AI during the clearance time of your gear, then yes, you can continue low dose in the beginning of PCT. I did this last time and that recovery went by far the best.
> 
> I was shooting 500iu during the cycle twice a week, but I still noticed some testicular atrophy at the end of the cycle.
> 
> So, I kept doing the 500iu, then did 1,000iu EOD for like 4 shots, then kept the clomid and nolva as above.
> 
> That recovery went super easy, best one yet.


 Am I right in saying clomid is useless when taken before atleast 15 days after last pin and it's evident hcg is better taken at the latter stages of a cycle to ready the body for pct (clomid/nolva) so is it ok to start hcg say 3 days after last pin for 2 weeks along with nolva then begin nolva and clomid for a further 2 weeks to finish off pct?


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## Ds1983

Hello @hackskii new to this site and heard you are the man to ask about hcg use. Please help I have 50,000 iu so plenty 

Just wanting to know how to run?

Would you suggest during cycle like 500iu e4ds or end of cycle along with pct.

Hope you can help thanks

Look forward to your response


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## ragnar_the_pit

Signed up specifically to post in this great thread.

Used to be fairly active on another board but life got in the way.

Currently doing a hybrid between Power PCT and Hacksii's PCT.

Was pinning 75mg test cyp 2x per week for 6 months for self-administered TRT
Last pin was 12/7.
Went on a vacation and took nothing from 12/8-12/17.
Started PCT on 12/18.

PCT has been 2000iu HCG E3D and 20mg Nolva/.5mg adex daily
So I'm 6 HCG shots in for total of 12,000iu HCG and on day 19 of PCT
Was pinning 250iu HCG 2x per week for the last 2 months while on test

Just had blood work back that was taken on day 17:

LH: 4.5 mIU/ML on scale of 1.5-9.3
FSH: 4.3 mIU/mL on scale of 1.6-8.0
Estradiol: <15
Total Test: 337 ng/dL

Should I keep running the HCG/Nolva combo until my Total Test is over 400 and then start the Clomid?

Considering bumping up the HCG to 2,000 EOD instead of E3D. Is this ill advised?


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## Ozzymodo

@hackskii

Amazing thread bro, I'm up to page 21 reading all the comments. Need some advice on my recent cycle and doing another PCT.

3 cycles under my belt, last one was 2 months Decca only at 750mg, hcg used throughout. Waited a month from last jab to pct, in the last week waiting to pct I blasted 10,000 iu of hcg. My labido came back and felt amazing. Started my PCT once I finished the hcg and around 2 weeks after that labido, mood, sex drive and erections disappeared, PCT failed clearly. I'm yet to get blood work done but from what I can gather my hpta is shutdown as my nuts seemed to be working fine when on the hcg but failed to be upheld when I discontinued. Can barely get hard, can still ejaculate but no morning or night wood at all.

Would you recommend giving this PCT a shot?

Many thanks


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