# Digestive Enzymes



## mattr

I'm a hardgainer and at the age of thirty am finally putting muscle on with a 3 times a week weight training session and twice a week mma.

But I was wondering what people thought about the use of digestive enzymes to help protein synthesis?

I have heard that for some hard gainers their body simply doesn't digest all the protein that they eat and wondered if anyone had any more advice on the subject?

Cheers, Matt


----------



## Andrew Jacks

I have read the theory and it seems to be supported by science, but I honestly do not believe there is anything as a 30 year old hard gainer, sorry to be sceptical, without looking at your lifestyle, exercise regime and diet it would be impossible to tell. These products are usually sold to teens with racing metabolic systems who are always on the move and they wonder why they look like a bean pole. I would not waste too much money on them, but could you let me know how it goes if you try?


----------



## hackskii

I love digestive enzymes myself.

Not many enzymes now days as most food is cooked or processed.


----------



## Andrew Jacks

Cheers Hackskii but does such a thing as hard gainer exist?


----------



## 3752

There is no such thing as a hard gainer, if you consider yourself a hard gainer then you are not eating enough calories, many will counter this with "yea but I am eating all the time" this may be true but they are probably eating empty calories..........

To the OP I would question you as a hard gainer though as you have said you are finally putting weight on and you are training 3 days with weights and 2 with mma, you cannot be what you would call a hard gainer....

As for digestive enzymes yes I do believe they of great use when eating as much food as BB do, I use ravenous it has helped a great deal you can get it from Cardiff sports nutrition one of the sponsors on the board....


----------



## bayman

hackskii said:


> Not many enzymes now days as most food is cooked or processed.


Rubbish! Enzymes are produced by us, not contained in the foods we eat.


----------



## Hendrix

fruit and veg in their raw state contain loads of natural digestive enzimes, and are lost as soon as cooked.


----------



## 3752

bayman said:


> Rubbish! Enzymes are produced by us, not contained in the foods we eat.


Rubbish! plenty of fresh foods contain enzymes like fruit and veg....


----------



## Clubber Lang

Pscarb said:


> Rubbish! plenty of fresh foods contain enzymes like fruit and veg....


pineapple is one of the best for enzymes isnt it?


----------



## Andrew Jacks

Clubber Lang said:


> pineapple is one of the best for enzymes isnt it?


Correct Bromelain

Amylase - Amylase is an enzyme that changes complex sugars (starches) into simple sugars during digestion. Amylase hydrolyzes starch,

glycogen, and dextrin to form in all three instances glucose, maltose, and the limit-dextrins. Amylase is secreted by the salivary glands and the pancreas that helps in the digestion of carbohydrates.

Bromelain - Bromelain is an enzyme found in pineapples that breaks down other proteins, such as collagen and muscle fiber. Bromelain is a mixture of sulfur-containing protein-digesting enzymes, called proteolytic enzymes or proteases. Bromelain is mainly comprised of cysteine proteases, with smaller amounts of acid phosphatase, peroxidase, amylase and cellulase.

Cellulase - Cellulases are a group of enzymes catalyzing an enzymatic reaction system in which cellulose is decomposed into glucose, cellobiose or cellooligosaccharides. Cellulase is an enzyme complex which breaks down cellulose to beta-glucose. Cellulases are key industrial enzymes used to breakdown biomass to fermentable sugars.

Lactase - Lactase (or beta-galactosidase) is the enzyme involved in the hydrolysis of lactose to galactose and glucose. Lactose is a disaccharide consisting of two subunits, a galactose and a glucose linked together. Lactose is an abundant disaccharide which is present in milk and in certain dairy products such as yogurt and whey.

Lipase - Lipase is an enzyme secreted by the pancreas into the small intestines. Lipase is an enzyme necessary for the absorption and digestion of nutrients in the intestines. Lipase catalyzes the breakdown of triglycerides into fatty acids. As with amylase, lipase appears in the blood following damage to the pancreatic acinar cells.

Pancreatin - Pancreatin is the mixture of enzymes obtained by extraction of the pancreas and consisting essentially of lipases, amylase and proteases. Pancreatin hydrolyses fats, changes protein into proteoses and derived substances and converts starches into dextrins and sugars. Pancreatin is a digestant that is used in the treatment of pancreatic insufficiency as pancreatic enzyme replacement.

Papain - Papain is in the dried latex obtained from the papaya fruit (Carica papaya L). Papain hydrolyzes proteins to form oligopeptides and amino acids. Papain has milk-clotting (rennet) and protein digesting properties. Papain has the ability to digest dead tissue without affecting the surrounding live tissue.

Pepsin - Pepsin is a digestive enzyme found in gastric juice that catalyzes the breakdown of protein to peptides. Pepsin is one of three principal protein-degrading, or proteolytic, enzymes in the digestive system. Pepsin degrades food proteins in the stomach. Pepsin acts as a potent proteolytic enzyme cleaving proteins into peptides in the gastric lumen at a low pH.

Chymotrypsin - Chymotrypsin is a pancreatic digestive enzyme that catalyzes the hydrolysis of certain proteins in the small intestine into polypeptides and amino acids. Chymotrypsin hydrolyzes the peptide bond of amino acids with large hydrophobic side chains, such as phenylalanine, tryptophan, and tyrosine.

Trypsin - Trypsin is a proteolytic enzyme that hydrolyzes peptide bonds on the carboxyl side of the amino acids arginine and lysine. Trypsin catalyzes the cleavage and activation of additional trypsinogen and other pancreatic proenzymes important to protein digestion.

I am still researching how important these things are, some with certain conditions no doubt benefit from them, but like all supplement, how important are they?

Fully agree with Pscarb there is not such thing as a hard gainer, teens only have problems due to lifestyle and out of control metabolic rate, once you have the basics building to your own personal best is fairly standard, but people do expect it to happen overnight


----------



## Andy Dee

I eat them only because they make a huge difference as I have digestion issues anyway.

As for hardgainer, I always say 'theres no such thing as a hardgainer, only a lack of knowledge' the only difference between the bodytypes is one needs to eat more than the other.


----------



## hackskii

bayman said:


> Rubbish! Enzymes are produced by us, not contained in the foods we eat.


Whole uncooked foods like fruits and vegetables do have enzymes, processing and cooking them destroy most of the enzymes.

The body does make enzymes too.

If your food enzymes are killed off during cooking then the body uses its enzymes from the enzyme pool for digestion.

But enzymes are used in all kinds of metabolic stuff and actually should be kept to do their jobs and not really for digestion.



hendrix said:


> fruit and veg in their raw state contain loads of natural digestive enzimes, and are lost as soon as cooked.


 Correct, at approx 118 degrees

Here are some enzymes in some of the foods.

*Papaya* = papain (breaks down peptide bonds in protein).

*Pineapple* = bromelain (helps breakdown protein). Aids on inflammation, and is an anti-coagulant.

*Sprouts* = May contain more than 100 times the enzymes of fruits and vegetables

*Nuts and seeds* = lipase (helps to break down fats). The pancreas makes lipase and if it is not in the food, this puts more of a burden on the pancreas. Remamber as said above the enzyme pool has another job to do other than break down foods, this is an example of this.

Cooking or roasting these nuts and seeds kill off the enzyme.


----------



## Rick89

Pscarb said:


> Rubbish! plenty of fresh foods contain enzymes like fruit and veg....


Paul how often would you suggest using a enzyme rich food (pineapple for example), as in how many meal a day would you add it too?? I ask as I am eating lots of red meat at the moment and would like to help digest etc.

Cheers


----------



## bayman

Pscarb said:


> Rubbish! plenty of fresh foods contain enzymes like fruit and veg....


Sorry, hasty reply. My point was - so what? The enzymes in the fruit and veg will just be digested like any other protein in the gut, they contribute jack-**** to the actual digestion of the food itself.

Here's an interested discussion on the "food enzymes" and raw foodist claims from a quackwatch article:

The claim:



> There are 3 primary groups of enzymes: (1) metabolic enzymes, (2) digestive enzymes and (3) food enzymes. Metabolic enzymes are those enzymes that catalyze various chemical reactions within the cells, such as detoxification and energy production. Digestive enzymes are secreted along the gastrointestinal tract to break down food so the nutrients can be absorbed into the bloodstream. Food enzymes are naturally present in all raw foods.


The response:



> "Food enzymes" are not needed by the body, either for digestion or for any other purpose.


The Claim:



> Enzymes are responsible for constructing, synthesizing, carrying, dispensing and delivering the many ingredients and chemicals our body uses in its daily business of living. Enzymes work by speeding up the chemical reactions in the body. If our bodies lack these enzymes, it takes an hour to process a visual site, sound or smell that normally would take just a fraction of a second.


The response:



> Enzymes in food cannot remedy a lack of cellular enzymes. All plant and animal products contain enzymes. They are responsible for both growth and post-harvest deterioration (wilting, discoloration, rancidity, etc.). They have nothing to do with the digestive process after food is consumed..


The claim:



> The modern diet consists predominately of enzyme-deficient cooked foods. Most Americans eat too few raw fruits and vegetables which are excellent sources of enzymes. However, enzymes are destroyed when food is processed, canned or cooked. Supplementation of enzymes can replace some of those lost in cooking and enhance enzymes found in raw foods.


The response:



> The amount of enzymes in food has no health significance because plant enzymes, when eaten, are digested just like other proteins. Processed foods can contain various amounts of enzymes that contribute to their spoilage.


The claim:



> Raw foods contain enzymes needed for digestion, however, cooking destroys those enzymes and forces enzymes secreted by the body to do the work.


The response:



> Raw food contains no enzymes needed for digestion. All the enzymes needed for human digestion are made in the body.


The claim:



> All raw food naturally contains the proper types and proportions of enzymes necessary to assist in the process of decomposition. In addition, when raw food is eaten, chewing ruptures the cell membranes and releases these indigenous food enzymes, many of which survive and contribute to the digestive process.


The response:



> Enzymes found in food are digested by the stomach and do not participate in the digestive process.


The claim:



> Ideally, the human body is capable of producing these same enzymes, with the exception of cellulase, necessary to digest food and allow for the absorption of nutrients. However, with estimates of as many as twenty million Americans suffering from various digestive disorders, optimal conditions are not the case.


The response:



> The vast majority of "digestive disorders" are not related to enzyme problems.


The claim:



> Most food enzymes are essentially destroyed under the conditions used to cook and process food, leaving foods devoid of enzyme activity. Placing the full digestive burden on the body, the body's digestive process can become over-stressed.


The response:



> Enzymes found in food are digested by the stomach and do not participate in the digestive process. Their presence or absence has nothing whatsoever to do with "over-stress of the digestive process."
> 
> Source: "Enzyme Deficiency"


A for depletion of pancreatic enzymes, the link below to a study which shows it takes the body around 3hrs to replenish these enzymes after a meal/



> ...enzyme secreted during the first hour of stimulation is derived from pancreatic stores and that the synthesis rate of enzymes secreted thereafter is approximately 2.7 h in normal humans.


From: http://www.springerlink.com/content/11702j57667m2u86/


----------



## bayman

hackskii said:


> Whole uncooked foods like fruits and vegetables do have enzymes, processing and cooking them destroy most of the enzymes.
> 
> The body does make enzymes too.
> 
> If your food enzymes are killed off during cooking then the body uses its enzymes from the enzyme pool for digestion.
> 
> But enzymes are used in all kinds of metabolic stuff and actually should be kept to do their jobs and not really for digestion.
> 
> Correct, at approx 118 degrees
> 
> Here are some enzymes in some of the foods.
> 
> *Papaya* = papain (breaks down peptide bonds in protein).
> 
> *Pineapple* = bromelain (helps breakdown protein). Aids on inflammation, and is an anti-coagulant.
> 
> *Sprouts* = May contain more than 100 times the enzymes of fruits and vegetables
> 
> *Nuts and seeds* = lipase (helps to break down fats). The pancreas makes lipase and if it is not in the food, this puts more of a burden on the pancreas. Remamber as said above the enzyme pool has another job to do other than break down foods, this is an example of this.
> 
> Cooking or roasting these nuts and seeds kill off the enzyme.


See my response above for most of these points.

Also consider that fact that cooking food kills off lots of dangerous pathogens, deactivates certain harmful compounds and makes a lot of foods more bioavailable. A lot of intellects who've studied the development of the human species credit our ability to make fire as the real driver behind our success as a species - fire opened up a whole new world of foods and habitat that previously were too hard for us to exist on / in.


----------



## hackskii

lol, tell that to the guy that has IBS, bloating, gas, and feels lethargic after eating a meal, heart burn, acid reflux.

Then add in digestive enzymes to a meal and watch the magic happen.

I can say for certainty that if you put digestive enzymes on lets say a bowel of oats, come back in 20 minutes it will look like pudding.

I know guys with chronic heart burn, acid reflux cured their conditions by changing their diets and adding in digestive enzymes.


----------



## hackskii

bayman said:


> See my response above for most of these points.
> 
> Also consider that fact that cooking food kills off lots of dangerous pathogens, deactivates certain harmful compounds and makes a lot of foods more bioavailable. A lot of intellects who've studied the development of the human species credit our ability to make fire as the real driver behind our success as a species - fire opened up a whole new world of foods and habitat that previously were too hard for us to exist on / in.


Yah, and fire helps so you dont freeze to death too....lol

Problem is medical professionals treat symptoms and not the problems.

Digestion problems are rampet today, not so 100 years ago.


----------



## bayman

hackskii said:


> lol, tell that to the guy that has IBS, bloating, gas, and feels lethargic after eating a meal, heart burn, acid reflux.
> 
> Then add in digestive enzymes to a meal and watch the magic happen.
> 
> I can say for certainty that if you put digestive enzymes on lets say a bowel of oats, come back in 20 minutes it will look like pudding.
> 
> I know guys with chronic heart burn, acid reflux cured their conditions by changing their diets and adding in digestive enzymes.


That doesn't validate them as necessary for anyone without a pre-exisiting condition though.

Also, the above symptoms may be indicative of food intolerances / allergies moreso than a lack of enzymes as such. A lot of foods aren't prepared as they should be, giving rise to problems due to their anti-nutirent content, gluten etc. Perfect example of this are oats - eaten ground up they bloat me terribly myself, soaked overnight and pre-pared as a porridge as they should be, no probs.


----------



## bayman

hackskii said:


> Yah, and fire helps so you dont freeze to death too....lol
> 
> Problem is medical professionals treat symptoms and not the problems.
> 
> *Digestion problems are rampet today, not so 100 years ago.*


But we still cooked plenty of our food back then :confused1:


----------



## hackskii

If enzymes are pointless, and dont work in food.

How come those with lactose intollerance can take something as simple as lactaid and not have gas and stomach distress?

Well, that blows the hell out of your arguement.

Whole milk that contains acidopholis wont effect these people either, gee, wonder why? :lol:

Again, blows your arguement out of the water.

Guys that have issues with digestion will fair well adding digestive enzymes to their meals, they notice less bloat, less gas (an issue with digestion), and feel better.

Sorry, I dont adhear to your defense, it is full of holes.


----------



## hackskii

bayman said:


> But we still cooked plenty of our food back then :confused1:


True, but far less processed.


----------



## bayman

hackskii said:


> If enzymes are pointless, and dont work in food.
> 
> How come those with lactose intollerance can take something as simple as lactaid and not have gas and stomach distress?
> 
> Well, that blows the hell out of your arguement.
> 
> Whole milk that contains acidopholis wont effect these people either, gee, wonder why? :lol:
> 
> Again, blows your arguement out of the water.
> 
> Guys that have issues with digestion will fair well adding digestive enzymes to their meals, they notice less bloat, less gas (an issue with digestion), and feel better.
> 
> Sorry, I dont adhear to your defense, it is full of holes.


Because lactose intolerance is a specific condition, it's not indicative of a normal person. I digest milk just fine (Raw or pasteurised) - that blows your argument out of the water too.

What pH is the stomach on average? And don't enzymes work in very tight pH conditions?


----------



## bayman

hackskii said:


> True, but far less processed.


Well what differnece does the degree of processing have if the sum of your argument is that fresh / raw foods contain all the enzymes necessary to their digestion?

Processing or not, any enzymes present in the food would have been destroyed / denatured by the cooking process...


----------



## 3752

Rick89 said:


> Paul how often would you suggest using a enzyme rich food (pineapple for example), as in how many meal a day would you add it too?? I ask as I am eating lots of red meat at the moment and would like to help digest etc.
> 
> Cheers


Rick i used to use a few slices of pineapple with each meal but have started using ravenous and my bloat after a meal is far far less now.....


----------



## hackskii

bayman said:


> Well what differnece does the degree of processing have if the sum of your argument is that fresh / raw foods contain all the enzymes necessary to their digestion?
> 
> Processing or not, any enzymes present in the food would have been destroyed / denatured by the cooking process...


You are putting words in my mouth, I never said you need the enzymes in your food for digestion.

Processing not only kills the enzymes in the food, but removes many of the vitamins, minerals, and anti-oxidants needed for good heatlh.

So, are you saying eating a bag of potato chips is equal to eating a cooked potato nutrient wise?

I am saying that having the enzymes in the food is better than not.

I am saying many people have digestion issues and taking digestive enzymes with your food can help in digestion, less acid reflux, less gas, less bloating.

Now if you dont agree with this then fine, tell that to the numerous guys that have had issues with digestion that dont have them now adding in digestive enzyme to their diet.

pH is one of my favorite controvercial topics and if you like to debate that one then do so.

If you think that lactose intollerance is random and not common think again, many suffer and find relief from taking lactose enzymes.

If it didnt work then why do they get relief from this enzyme?

If massive amounts of protein bloat guys then they take, Protease, bromelain, this helps them.

Another thing, why have we evolved in eating raw fruits and vegetables after many years and it being in food?

You dont think it is there by accident do you?

Do you think the quality of food is the same with or without these enzymes?

It makes no diffrence?


----------



## bayman

hackskii said:


> You are putting words in my mouth, I never said you need the enzymes in your food for digestion.
> 
> Processing not only kills the enzymes in the food, but removes many of the vitamins, minerals, and anti-oxidants needed for good heatlh.


Well we were talking about enzymes and digestion were we not? Not nutrients. I grasp fully that processing removes various nutrients, but if you don't need enzymes in food for digestion, why refer to the use of certain raw foods or digestive enzyme supps?

The main active ingredient in these supps that would confer benefit is Betain HCL or anything else that increases stomach acid secretion - this is what probably reduces the bloating. It's widely accepted that stomach acid secretion lowers with age, and some people have problems with this regardless.



hacksii said:


> So, are you saying eating a bag of potato chips is equal to eating a cooked potato nutrient wise?


Of course not, lets not go down the strawman route, too easy.



hacksii said:


> I am saying that having the enzymes in the food is better than not.
> 
> I am saying many people have digestion issues and taking digestive enzymes with your food can help in digestion, less acid reflux, less gas, less bloating.
> 
> Now if you dont agree with this then fine, tell that to the numerous guys that have had issues with digestion that dont have them now adding in digestive enzyme to their diet.
> 
> pH is one of my favorite controvercial topics and if you like to debate that one then do so.
> 
> If you think that lactose intollerance is random and not common think again, many suffer and find relief from taking lactose enzymes.
> 
> If it didnt work then why do they get relief from this enzyme?
> 
> If massive amounts of protein bloat guys then they take, Protease, bromelain, this helps them.
> 
> Another thing, why have we evolved in eating raw fruits and vegetables after many years and it being in food?
> 
> You dont think it is there by accident do you?
> 
> Do you think the quality of food is the same with or without these enzymes?
> 
> It makes no diffrence?


I don't think enzymes in food make much of / if any difference no. Most proteins (of which enzymes are included) are denatured in the stomach acid. The digestive enzymes that can function in stomach acid are:

Pepsin, Gelatinase, Gastric amylase, Gastric lipase, Rennin enzyme

Do any of these occur in raw foods? The clue is in the name.

All the enzymes necessary for digestion are secreted lower down the digestive tract where the pH is far less acidic. This has actually been studied for reference:



> *Tortora and Anagostakos [1981, p. 629]* report that 90% of all nutrients are absorbed in the small intestine. Further, digestion in the small intestine relies on bile and pancreatic enzymes, as a large part (but not 100%) of the food enzymes are destroyed in the stomach prior to the food reaching the small intestine. The above quote, coupled with the 90% absorption figure, suggests by extension that enzymes in raw food are of very limited nutritional significance.


----------



## hackskii

This was your post to my suggestion of enzymes.



bayman said:


> Rubbish! Enzymes are produced by us, not contained in the foods we eat.


Now you moved your position away from not being in food, to having "limited nutritional significance."

Yet for the person suffering from digestive issues digestive enzymes can help, or even foods that contain enzymes.

So, we went from Rubbish, to not, correct?

The processed thing is more complex than just nutritional values, their shelf life should cause some glimpse to their modifications from whole foods. I didnt want to list all the things wrong with processed foods, just an example of the absense of enzymes.

I do eat some of those myself, just would not want to make a meal out of that.

I am fully aware of the stomach acid decline with age, this is one reason B-12 might not be a bad idea to supplement when older. but that is another topic as well.


----------



## kernowgee

This thread had all the makings of a great debate had you not said a word bayman. Honestly no offence, but please learn to back down the mods are fishing with you.

This is very interesting subject and you are letting your ego kill fair comment. Stop making everything personal.


----------



## bayman

hackskii said:


> Now you moved your position away from not being in food, to having "limited nutritional significance."
> 
> Yet for the person suffering from digestive issues digestive enzymes can help, or even foods that contain enzymes.
> 
> So, we went from Rubbish, to not, correct?


Sorry, my first reply was a little "hit and run". What I meant by it was that enzymes contained in foods don't contribute to digestion, it's the ones produced by us that do. The reason for this as I've said is I believe all food enzymes to be destroyed by acid in the stomach, as I pointed out with the references.



kerowgee said:


> This thread had all the makings of a great debate had you not said a word bayman. Honestly no offence, but please learn to back down the mods are fishing with you.
> 
> This is very interesting subject and you are letting your ego kill fair comment. Stop making everything personal.


I'm not making anything personal mate, I'm here to learn and help others if I can. My skepticism with enzyme supps comes from my understanding of how digestion works - in a word I think they're a scam.

I think they work by upping stomach acid levels due to their Betaine content in the main unless anyone can show me differently?


----------



## hackskii

Here is a snip from a doctor that has some stuff on enzymes:

Next, consider that the human pancreas is burdened with enzyme production far in excess of any creature living on a raw food diet. In fact, in proportion to body weight, the human pancreas is more than twice as heavy as that of a cow.

Human beings eat mainly cooked food, while cows eat raw grass.

Then, there is evidence that rats on a cooked diet have a pancreas about twice as heavy as rats on a raw diet.

Moreover, evidence shows that the human pancreas is one of the heaviest in the animal kingdom, when you adjust for total body weight.

This over enlargement of the human pancreas is just as dangerous - probably even more so - than an over enlargement of the heart, the thyroid and so on. The overproduction of enzymes in humans is a pathological adaptation to a diet of enzyme-free foods.

The pancreas is not the only part of the body that over secretes enzymes when the diet is cooked. In addition, there are the human salivary glands, which produce enzymes to a degree never found in wild animals on their natural foods.

In fact, some animals on a raw diet do not have any enzymes at all in their saliva. The cow and sheep produce torrents of saliva with no enzymes in it.

Dogs, for instance, also secrete no enzymes in their saliva when they're eating a raw diet. However, if you start giving them cooked starchy food, their salivary glands will start producing starch-digesting enzymes within 10 days.

In addition, there's more evidence that the enzymes in saliva represent a pathological and not a normal situation. To begin with, salivary enzymes cannot digest raw starch. This is something I demonstrated in the laboratory.

The enzymes in saliva will only attack a piece of starch once it's cooked. Therefore, we see that the body will channel some of its limited enzyme producing capacity into saliva only if it has to.

Another snip:

I fed one group of rats a cooked diet and one group a raw diet and let them live out their lifespan to see which group would live longer.

The first group got a combination of raw meat and various raw vegetables and grains. The second group got the same foods boiled and therefore enzyme-free. I kept these rats until they died, which took about three years.

As the experiment came to a close, the results surprised me. It turned out that there was no great difference between the life spans of the two groups. Later on, I discovered the reason.

It turned out that the rats on the cooked diet were still getting enzymes, but from an unexpected source. They had been eating their own feces, which contained the enzymes excreted from their own bodies.

All feces, including those of human beings, contain the enzymes that the body has used. My rats had been recycling their own enzymes to use them over again. And that's why they lived as long as the rats on the raw diet.

Incidentally, the practice of eating feces is almost universal among today's laboratory animals. Although these animals receive "scientific" diets containing all known vitamins and minerals, the animals instinctively know they need enzymes. Because of this, they eat their own feces.

In fact, the animals on these scientific diets develop most of the chronic human degenerative diseases if they are allowed to live out their life spans. This shows that vitamins and minerals alone are not sufficient for health.

*One problem mentioned was stomach acid kills off the enzymes. Seems though this is not so:*

HEALTHVIEW: When people get enzymes from food, aren't they destroyed by stomach acid and therefore of little or no value?

HOWELL: This is not true. Although most nutritionists claim that enzymes in food are destroyed in the stomach, they overlook two important facts.

First of all, when you eat food, acid secretion is minimal for at least thirty minutes. As the food goes down the esophagus, it drops into the top portion of the stomach. This is called the cardiac section, since it's closer to the heart.

The rest of the stomach remains flat and closed while the cardiac section opens up to accommodate the food. During the time the food sits in the upper section, little acid or enzymes are secreted by the body. The enzymes in the food itself go about digesting the food. The more of this self-digestion that occurs, the less work the body has to do later.

When this 30 to 45 minute period is over, the bottom section of the stomach opens up and the body starts secreting acid and enzymes. Even at this point, the food enzymes are not inactivated until the acid level becomes prohibitive. You see, food enzymes can tolerate chemical environments many times more acid than neutral.

Another snip:

HEALTHVIEW: Do animals also have a special section of the stomach where food digests itself?

HOWELL: Absolutely. In fact, some creatures have what I call a food enzyme stomach.

There are the cheek pouches of monkeys and rodents, the crop of many species of birds, and the first stomachs of whales, dolphins and porpoises.

When birds, for instance, swallow seeds or grains, these grains lie in the crop for 8 to 12 hours. As they sit, they absorb moisture, swell up and begin to germinate. During germination, enzymes are formed which do the work of digesting the seeds and grains.

Whales, dolphins and porpoises have a first stomach which secretes no enzymes. Whales, for example, swallow large quantities of food without chewing it. The food simply decomposes and digests itself. In the flesh of the fish and other marine life the whale eats is an enzyme, called cathepsin, which breaks down the fish once it has died. In fact, this enzyme is present in almost all creatures.

After the whale's catch has liquefied itself, it passes through a small hole into the whale's second stomach.

It mystifies scientists how the whale's catch can get through that small hole into the second stomach. They have no idea that self-digestion was at work.


----------



## hackskii

Twelve Points on Enzymes

Enzymes rule over all other nutrients. Enzymes are responsible for nearly every facet of life and health and far outweigh the importance of every other nutrient.

Enzymes are needed to help control all mental and physical functions. Each body cell has in excess of 100,000 enzyme particles necessary for metabolic processes.

Enzymes cannot function properly without the presence of other substances which are known as coenzymes. Coenzymes are minerals, vitamins and proteins.

Once enzymes have completed their appointed task they are destroyed. For life to continue you must have a constant enzyme supply which requires continual replacement of enzymes.

Enzymes are found in all living cells including raw foods or those that are cooked at a temperature lower than 116 degrees Fahrenheit. Enzymes begin to perish when the temperature increases beyond 116 degrees. The degree of enzyme destruction is a function of time and temperature.

Enzymes are primarily proteins, yet enzymes need amino acids for their normal function. Hormones are primarily proteins, which require interaction with enzymes to regulate bodily processes.

Enzymes aid in transforming proteins into amino acids. Protein does not perform its function unless broken down into amino acids. Amino acids can be considered as an enzyme carrier whose function is to transport enzymes to various functions in the body.

Enzymes help extract minerals from food. Enzymes transform minerals into an alkaline detoxifying agent which combines with acid cellular wastes and toxic settlements within the body thus neutralizing them and preparing them for elimination.

Enzymes use minerals to create an even balance of dissolved solids both inside and outside the cells, thus equalizing both internal and external pressures, which we call osmotic equilibrium.

Vitamins are required as coenzymes to work with enzymes in every chemical reaction in every cell of the body. Without minerals extracted from food by enzymes, vitamins would be unable to perform their function.

An enzyme deficiency must be carefully considered as a possible precursor of bodily imbalance and consequent disease symptoms.

Enzymes are, therefore, justified as a supplemental dietary substance which need is parallel with mineral, vitamin and all other supportive therapies.

As compiled by Dr. John Whitman Ray, N.D., Ph.D.

From the book "Body Electronics Fundamentals" by Douglas Morrison


----------



## hackskii

*Scientific Studies:*

In a 2004 research project conducted by The Netherlands Organization for Applied Scientific Research, the effect of supplemental digestive enzymes was studied. The purpose of the study was to measure how well digestive enzymes digest proteins and carbohydrates and how available nutrients are to the body. This study concluded that enzyme supplements can significantly increase the degree of digestion in the lumen of the small intestine and improve availability of proteins and carbohydrates to the cells.

In a 2001 study, 260 people used enzyme supplements over seven months. The majority of the people taking enzymes reported noticeable improvement. Specifically, 235 (90%) experienced positive results, 14 (6%) reported negative results, and 11 (4%) were uncertain if any change occurred. Subjects reported significant improvements in digestion, stools/bowels, energy level, sleep patterns, weight gain or loss, foods tolerated, overall appearance, and mental skills.

Research conducted by Dr. Edward Howell, over a 50-year timeframe, showed that many of the physical problems and diseases we experience can be linked to improper digestion of food. In his research, he discovered that the saliva of young adults contain 32 times more enzymes than adults over 69 years. Dr. Howell concluded that the gradual depletion of the body's enzyme supply over time was caused by a steady diet of cooked foods. As the enzyme supply diminishes, the body becomes more susceptible to degenerative diseases and premature aging. Further research on rats revealed that rats receiving enzyme supplements had a higher level of enzymes in their body and tended to live longer than rats on enzyme-free diets.

Two other research studies (Journal of Nutrition 12:59-83, 1936 and Proceedings of the Society for Experimental Biology and Medicine 37:613-615) found that younger adults tended to have much higher enzyme levels in the urine, pancreas, and cells when compared to older adults.

Research (American Journal of Physiology 141:38-41, 1944) done on both domestic and wild animals revealed that feeding these animals a diet of heat-processed, enzyme-free food caused their pancreas gland to enlarge up to three times the normal size to handle the extra burden of the enzyme-deficient food.

References:

"The First Quantitative Evidence Proving The Efficacy of Supplemental Enzymes." National Enzyme Co.: Missouri; 2004.

Bartos and Goth. Proceedings of the Society for Experimental Biology and Medicine (37:613-615).

DeFelice, Karen. "7-Month Peptizyde and Zyme Prime Summary Report". Enzyme and Autism Board: December 2001.

Grossman, M., Greengard, H., Ivy, A., American Journal of Physiology (141:38-41); 1944.

Howell, Edward. "Enzyme Nutrition." Avery Publishing Group: New York; 1985.

Howell, Edward. "Food Enzymes for Health and Longevity." Lotus Press: Wisconson; 1994.

Ivy, A., Schmidt, C., Beazell, J. Journal of Nutrition (12:59-83); 1936.

Resources:

Cichoke Dr Anthony J. "The Complete Book of Enzyme Therapy." Avery Publishing Group Inc.: New York; 1999.

Cutler Ellen, D.C., Kaslow Jeremy, M.D. "Micro Miracles: Discover the Healing Power of Enzymes." Rodale Books: Pennsylvania; 2005.

Santillo, Humbart. "Food Enzymes: The Missing Link to Radiant Health." Hohm Press: Arizona; 1993 (second edition).


----------



## hackskii

Another snip:lol:

It is sometimes said that food enzymes or supplemental enzymes swallowed with food cannot do any work because the acid in the stomach prevents their activity. This is true if the enzymes and very strong acid are mixed together in a test tube in a laboratory demonstration. But it is untrue when enzymes are taken into a living body. The stomach normally allows salivary enzymes, food and supplementary enzymes to digest food for up to an hour. When they have finished their job of performing predigestion, food enzymes and proper supplemental enzymes, functioning at a lower pH, continue digestion of protein, carbohydrate and fat for a longer time than salivary or pancreatic enzymes; salivary digestion being restricted to starch. As the stomach acid level becomes higher, the special acid enzymes, pepsin, can continue the digestion of protein where the others left off. These facts have been elicited after the stomach and upper intestinal contents were pumped out and examined at various intervals following meals.

I have been able to show the dire consequences following use of the enzyme-deficient diet by discovering that the pancreas must enlarge to produce the vast quantities of enzymes necessary when the body is forced to digest all of the food without outside aid. This does not harm the pancreas at all, anymore than it harms a muscle when it must enlarge to do more work. Similarly, when a government agency must enlarge to give away more money to foreign governments, the only harmed parties are the taxpayers. An enlarged pancreas can give out and waste more precious enzymes than a normal organ, but this generous dispensation is not good for the body as a whole because it strains the enzyme potential of the whole body in its effort to produce a normal quota of metabolic enzymes to keep all organs and tissues healthy and disease-free.

Those who theorize that food enzymes do not digest food in the human stomach, thereby confess ignorance of the fact that physiologists have fed test meals to human subjects, along with the food enzyme, barley amylase. Other physiologists fed test meals and waited for the salivary enzyme, ptyalin, to work on them. Later, the contents of the duodenum and stomach were pumped out and it was learned that marked digestion of the food consumed occurred in both instances. And a large portion of the enzymes fed with the food, were recovered, proving that they were not permanently inactivated, and proving furthermore, that theoretical prognostication can be dangerous.

There are those who surreptitiously proclaim that food enzymes cannot do any work in the stomach because all enzymes are proteins, and food enzymes are digested as are other proteins. But this argument very conveniently overlooks, or perhaps tries to hide the fact, that if the enzyme complex had no special and specific immunity against being digested because it contains protein, what is to prevent one portion of the enzyme pepsin from being digested by an adjoining and contiguous portion of the same enzyme while pepsin functions in the stomach? Why do pancreatic proteolytic enzymes not digest each other while they are at work reducing food proteins to amino acids in the small intestine?


----------



## Hendrix

I believe the main benefit of fruit/veg smoothies was for the uptake of nutrients through natural digestive enzymes, this was accredited to the 'detox effect' ot the raw fruit/veg. However i am sure the visible physical health benefits are more from the uptake of more nutrients, but could be wrong.

What do you think Scott?


----------



## hackskii

hendrix said:


> I believe the main benefit of fruit/veg smoothies was for the uptake of nutrients through natural digestive enzymes, this was accredited to the 'detox effect' ot the raw fruit/veg. However i am sure the visible physical health benefits are more from the uptake of more nutrients, but could be wrong.
> 
> What do you think Scott?


Well, kindof.

Biggest problem I have with juicing is the fact that it raises the glycemic index of the fruit by removing the fiber.

Fiber slows digestion thus lowering the glycemic index of food or the glycemic load of a meal.

The plus side of juicing is you would have to eat alot of the vegetable (lets say) to get the nutrients that the juice would.

One example would be cellery juice.

I juice 5 stalks of cellery for a glass of juice.

When I drink this it has an amazing effect on lowering blood pressure, and I do mean lower.


----------



## kernowgee

Brilliant thread, guys anything we need to look for in a supplement, I have seen a few online for a few quid are they worth the money

Example

http://www.chemistdirect.co.uk/healthaid-digeston_1_4896.html

These include natural digestive enzymes which are used by the body to break down food; absorbing or bulking and cleansing agents such as charcoal and psyllium husk; beneficial herbs; and probiotic cultures which help maintain friendly bacteria. HealthAid Digeston 5Digeston contains a combination of eight beneficial digestive enzymes including Papain, Pepsin, Bromelain and Betain Hcl, all of which help to break down food in the stomach and gut. People who suffer from after dinner discomfort because of bloating often find taking extra digestive enzymes in the form of a food supplement to be most helpful. Also contains Papaya enzyme powder, a particularly well-known and effective ingredient. Each tablet contains (average)apainPepsinBetain HydrochloridePancreatinBromelainPapaya enzyme powderAmylaseProtease 80mg150mg100mg75mg50mg5mg10mg10mgFree from: Yeast, Gluten, Artificial Colouring, Flavouring, Preservatives


----------



## Rick89

Pscarb said:


> Rick i used to use a few slices of pineapple with each meal but have started using ravenous and my bloat after a meal is far far less now.....


Thanks Paul, basically what Im doing currently with the pinapple, will look into getting some ravenous.


----------



## Andrew Jacks

kernowgee said:


> Brilliant thread, guys anything we need to look for in a supplement, I have seen a few online for a few quid are they worth the money
> 
> Example
> 
> http://www.chemistdirect.co.uk/healthaid-digeston_1_4896.html
> 
> These include natural digestive enzymes which are used by the body to break down food; absorbing or bulking and cleansing agents such as charcoal and psyllium husk; beneficial herbs; and probiotic cultures which help maintain friendly bacteria. HealthAid Digeston 5Digeston contains a combination of eight beneficial digestive enzymes including Papain, Pepsin, Bromelain and Betain Hcl, all of which help to break down food in the stomach and gut. People who suffer from after dinner discomfort because of bloating often find taking extra digestive enzymes in the form of a food supplement to be most helpful. Also contains Papaya enzyme powder, a particularly well-known and effective ingredient. Each tablet contains (average)apainPepsinBetain HydrochloridePancreatinBromelainPapaya enzyme powderAmylaseProtease 80mg150mg100mg75mg50mg5mg10mg10mgFree from: Yeast, Gluten, Artificial Colouring, Flavouring, Preservatives


One is a fiver the other forty plus, I know which I would opt to use


----------



## mattr

Pscarb said:


> There is no such thing as a hard gainer, if you consider yourself a hard gainer then you are not eating enough calories, many will counter this with "yea but I am eating all the time" this may be true but they are probably eating empty calories..........
> 
> To the OP I would question you as a hard gainer though as you have said you are finally putting weight on and you are training 3 days with weights and 2 with mma, you cannot be what you would call a hard gainer....
> 
> As for digestive enzymes yes I do believe they of great use when eating as much food as BB do, I use ravenous it has helped a great deal you can get it from Cardiff sports nutrition one of the sponsors on the board....


If the general consensus is that there is no such thing as a hardgainer then that works for me. Through my twenties I trained 4 or 5 times a week and pretty much never put any weight on so when I put it into google I got a ton of stuff calling me a hardgainer. Admittedly I only really started to take note of my diet at the beginning of the year and have put on 3kg so far

Thanks for all the info on digestive enzymes. I never expected it to be such an active topic but have certainly learned a lot!!


----------



## Tharayman

Wooow! hackskii realy killed it in the end! Very informative posts, feel like I have realy learned something today 

I would like to thank bayman, even if he did not have faintest idea what he was talking about, he did cause hackskii to post all the good stuff 

Will certainly try some supplement with digestive enzymes.


----------



## hackskii

Well, I do have my favorite ones, and was waiting for them to go on sale.

And as my best friend laying in the hospital in ICU with pancreatic issues, I may point him in the right direction once he gets out of the hospital, it has been almost 2 weeks and was fearing he might not make it.


----------



## dtlv

Inadequate enzyme action during early stages of digestion and inadequate microbial action during latter stages of digestion between them are the basis of so many problems that reach way beyond digestion itself... poor enzyme balance (and poor gastric acid production) leads to improper first stage digestion and food intolerances and then, further along on the digestive process, also leads to a poor balance of digestive bacteria, and poor balance of digestive bacteria leads to problems with whole body immunity, allergy and inflammation.

There's very good theory to using digestive enzymes and pre and probiotics to help prevent a whole range of problems, especially where there's a genetic problem producing the right enzymes for foods eaten or a diet that poorly supports intestinal bacteria.


----------



## totalwar

Nice posts hackskii

So whats a good supp to use? I seen these ones for protein digestion http://www.amazon.co.uk/Doctors-Best-Proteolytic-Vegetarian-Capsules/dp/B0018NYRTS/ref=sr_1_4?s=drugstore&ie=UTF8&qid=1396790294&sr=1-4&keywords=%2C+Protease%2C+bromelain%2C

As i want to digest more protein when i dink whey or eat chicken so thinking of getting theses and takeing them,

Allso dose digestive enzymes in whey protein work well

Been on google all day looking trying to figure all this out

I seen something about not wanting to use the ones that make carbs digest faster

http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2013/jan2013_Are-You-Obtaining-the-Proper-Enzymes_01.htm

What you think of this ^^^

Wondering what ones to use


----------



## Sambuca

I like solgar digestive enzymes


----------



## hackskii

totalwar said:


> Nice posts hackskii
> 
> So whats a good supp to use? I seen these ones for protein digestion http://www.amazon.co.uk/Doctors-Best-Proteolytic-Vegetarian-Capsules/dp/B0018NYRTS/ref=sr_1_4?s=drugstore&ie=UTF8&qid=1396790294&sr=1-4&keywords=%2C+Protease%2C+bromelain%2C
> 
> As i want to digest more protein when i dink whey or eat chicken so thinking of getting theses and takeing them,
> 
> Allso dose digestive enzymes in whey protein work well
> 
> Been on google all day looking trying to figure all this out
> 
> I seen something about not wanting to use the ones that make carbs digest faster
> 
> http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2013/jan2013_Are-You-Obtaining-the-Proper-Enzymes_01.htm
> 
> What you think of this ^^^
> 
> Wondering what ones to use


Well, I think that is a bit of hype myself as if one has a healthy diet, digestive enzymes are made by the pancreas anyway.

Also when other things are added to the faster spiking carbohydrates it lowers the glycemic load, so adding in protein, and fats, lowers the load of the meal.


----------



## totalwar

So you think not to bother

I read this made me think i mite be better useing them when i drink whey to absorb more protien

http://www.precisionnutrition.com/rr-whey-too-much

What you think


----------



## hackskii

totalwar said:


> So you think not to bother
> 
> I read this made me think i mite be better useing them when i drink whey to absorb more protien
> 
> http://www.precisionnutrition.com/rr-whey-too-much
> 
> What you think


That was a fun read, and I always suggest whole foods, I don't do shakes, now that I read that, I understand after all these years why I do it.

Pretty big loss in protein from whey.


----------



## Tharayman

totalwar said:


> So you think not to bother
> 
> I read this made me think i mite be better useing them when i drink whey to absorb more protien
> 
> http://www.precisionnutrition.com/rr-whey-too-much
> 
> What you think


That was a real "WTF-moment". Do you know of any more studies supporting this? If this is correct we are dumping a lot of money right down the ****ter...

Got me thinking that a 20:80 whey:milk blend would be a good option uptake-vice...


----------



## Test-e

hackskii said:


> That was a fun read, and I always suggest whole foods, I don't do shakes, now that I read that, I understand after all these years why I do it.
> 
> Pretty big loss in protein from whey.


Good read.

Literally, p!ssing your money away with whey. Guess it's time to invest in some digestive enzymes.


----------



## totalwar

So do you think we should use them hackskii? Dose any one els have any more studies supporting this?


----------



## hackskii

totalwar said:


> So do you think we should use them hackskii? Dose any one els have any more studies supporting this?


I use them, I cant think of any reason not to use them.

Because it allows carbs to be digested faster would only mean that one could use with other foods, and control the portions.

Saying using digestive enzymes promotes insulin resistance is nuts IMO, and all that has to do with portion control, and limit carbs.

Eating raw whole foods would be the best thing anyway.


----------



## gearchange

I have a medical problem and do not produce bile for digestion.Initially I could not absorb any fats through digestion properly due to this..Problem for a lifter like me.So I took systemic enzymes and guess what? I can now digest all foods without a problem.So I would definitely say use them,they do work.


----------



## totalwar

Okay so makes no difference to carbs lol ive only started reading about them so dont no much about them

I ordered theses because i read on that there the ones for protein digestion http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B0018NYRTS/ref=oh_details_o02_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Should i get other ones to digest carbs and fat better? Any good recommendations ?

I plan on using them with protein shakes to digest more protein

So i take it i dont need them for whole food like chicken beef eggs ex.

Thanks hackskii your very knowledgeable as allways


----------



## SJL1990

@Pscarb noticed your footer about peptides. Could you tell me anything about "Recov Bipeptides"? A guy I know swears by them... Any info much appreciated.


----------



## 3752

SJL1990 said:


> @Pscarb noticed your footer about peptides. Could you tell me anything about "Recov Bipeptides"? A guy I know swears by them... Any info much appreciated.


Recov Bipeptides is not a peptide in the sense of what my link is, they are basically pre-digested protein containing 22 amino acids i can see them being of use but i would not imagine it would be anything magical as such......


----------



## hackskii

Pscarb said:


> Recov Bipeptides is not a peptide in the sense of what my link is, they are basically pre-digested protein containing 22 amino acids i can see them being of use but i would not imagine it would be anything magical as such......


Hey Paul, was that the dried pigs blood stuff that a guy was spouting about some 2 to 3 years ago?


----------



## 3752

hackskii said:


> Hey Paul, was that the dried pigs blood stuff that a guy was spouting about some 2 to 3 years ago?


you know Scott now you have said that i think it is, never occurred to me until your post....good memory mate or i am getting really bad lol

edit just rebooked and the brand is Tagart this is the same Scott, keep away from them guys they are crap


----------



## hackskii

Pscarb said:


> you know Scott now you have said that i think it is, never occurred to me until your post....good memory mate or i am getting really bad lol
> 
> edit just rebooked and the brand is Tagart this is the same Scott, keep away from them guys they are crap


Yah, that is what I thought, I remember because it was such a big debate and that/those guys went nuts, till someone said its just dried pigs blood and why is it better?

Then it kicked off....lol

I have a good memory about things I tend to want to remember, now on the other hand when the wife tells me things, I hardly ever remember.

She hates that. :lol:


----------



## totalwar

Hackskii or pscarb just wondreing do you to have any info on my questions? ^^^^ thanks


----------



## hackskii

totalwar said:


> Hackskii or pscarb just wondreing do you to have any info on my questions? ^^^^ thanks


If your question is to ask me if you should use them then yes, I recommend them as well as pro-biotics.


----------



## totalwar




----------



## 3752

totalwar said:


> So you think not to bother
> 
> I read this made me think i mite be better useing them when i drink whey to absorb more protien
> 
> http://www.precisionnutrition.com/rr-whey-too-much
> 
> What you think


well a good digestive enzyme will help you absorb all foods not only whey, they are a must have along with Pro biotics in any ones regime if they are serious about growing


----------



## Guest

Pscarb said:


> well a good digestive enzyme will help you absorb all foods not only whey, they are a must have along with Pro biotics in any ones regime if they are serious about growing


Not an overly big fan of HB but would these foot the bill Paul?

http://m.hollandandbarrett.com/pages/product_detail.asp?pid=3123&prodid=2980


----------



## Tinytom

I remember that dried pigs blood crap a few years ago. Funny as fcuk.

Digestive enzymes I use AD ravenous or Digest Gold.


----------



## totalwar

So would you take them with every meal or shake?


----------



## sauliuhas

hackskii said:


> lol, tell that to the guy that has IBS, bloating, gas, and feels lethargic after eating a meal, heart burn, acid reflux.
> 
> Then add in digestive enzymes to a meal and watch the magic happen.
> 
> I can say for certainty that if you put digestive enzymes on lets say a bowel of oats, come back in 20 minutes it will look like pudding.
> 
> I know guys with chronic heart burn, acid reflux cured their conditions by changing their diets and adding in digestive enzymes.


This is so true...


----------



## totalwar

Howoftn do you take them? Like one time a day or 3 times a day


----------



## Themanthatcan

totalwar said:


> Howoftn do you take them? Like one time a day or 3 times a day


It all depends on what brand etc you take, i have had pancreatitis and they help me a massive amount, according to mine you take one with small meals and two with big meals. I have the ones from Holland and Barratt. Since taking them i have a lot less bloating, cramps and my stools are healthier.

Would recommend them to anyone.


----------

