# Why nice guys finish last...



## _-NaTh-_ (Jan 18, 2006)

I've been in a stormy "Friendship" for the past 3 months.. You can probley find the thread that explains it all..

A friendship that ended with kissing. I could explain but i will refrain.

A friend i've known for quite some time sent me this while i was feelin' quite upset one day.. It made me feel good, knowing that i was doing the right thing in everything i did.

This is a tribute to the nice guys.

The nice guys that finish last, that never become more than friends,

that endure hours of whining and bitching about what assholes guys are,

while disproving the very point. This is dedicated to those guys who always

provide a shoulder to lean on but restrain themselves to tentative hugs,

those guys who hold open doors and give reassuring pats on the back and

sit patiently outside the changing room at department stores. This is

in honor of the guys that obligingly reiterate how cute/beautiful/smart

/funny/sexy their female friends are at the appropriate moment, because

they know most girls need that litany of support. This is in honor of

the guys with open minds, with laid-back attitudes, with honest concern.

This is in honor of the guys who respect a girl's every facet, from her

privacy to her theology to her clothing style.

This is for the guys who escort their drunk, bewildered female friends

back from parties and never take advantage once they're at her door, for

the guys who accompany girls to bars as buffers against the rest of the

creepy male population, for the guys who know a girl is fishing for

compliments but give them out anyway, for the guys who always play by

the rules in a game where the rules favor cheaters, for the guys who

are accredited as boyfriend material but somehow don't end up being

boyfriends, for all the nice guys who are overlooked, underestimated, and

unappreciated, for all the nice guys who are manipulated, misled, and

unjustly abandoned, this is for you.

This is for that time she left 40 urgent messages on your cell phone, and

when you called her back, she spent three hours painstakingly dissecting

two sentences her boyfriend said to her over dinner. And even though you

thought her boyfriend was a chump and a jerk, you assured her that it was

all ok and she shouldn't worry about it. This is for that time she

interrupted the best killing spree you'd ever orchestrated in GTA3 to rant

about a rumor that romantically linked her and the guy she thinks is the

most repulsive person in the world. And even though you thought it was

immature and you had nothing against the guy, you paused the game for two

hours and helped her concoct a counter-rumor to spread around the floor.

This is also for that time she didn't have a date, so after numerous vows

that there was nothing "serious" between the two of you, she dragged you

to a party where you knew nobody, the beer was awful, and she flirted

shamelessly with you, justifying each fit of reckless teasing by announcing

to everyone: "oh, but we're just friends!" And even though you were invited

purely as a symbolic warm body for her ego, you went anyways. Because you're

nice like that.

The nice guys don't often get credit where credit is due. And perhaps more

disturbing, the nice guys don't seem to get laid as often as they should.

And I wish I could logically explain this trend, but I can't. From what I

have observed on campus and what I have learned from talking to friends at

other schools and in the workplace, the only conclusion I can form is that

many girls are just illogical, manipulative bitches. Many of them claim they

just want to date a nice guy, but when presented with such a specimen, they

say irrational, confusing things such as "oh, he's too nice to date" or "he

would be a good boyfriend but he's not for me" or "he already puts up with

so much from me, I couldn't possibly ask him out!" or the most frustrating

of all: "no, it would ruin our friendship." Yet, they continue to lament the

lack of datable men in the world, and they expect their too-nice-to-date male

friends to sympathize and apologize for the men that are jerks. Sorry, guys,

girls like that are beyond my ability to fathom. I can't figure out why the

connection breaks down between what they say (I want a nice guy!) and what

they do (I'm going to sleep with this complete booty now!). But one thing

I can do, is say that the nice-guy-finishes-last phenomenon doesn't last

forever. There are definitely many girls who grow out of that train of

thought and realize they should be dating the nice guys, not taking them

for granted. The tricky part is finding those girls, and even trickier,

finding the ones that are single.

So, until those girls are found, I propose a toast to all the nice guys.

You know who you are, and I know you're sick of hearing yourself described

as ubiquitously nice. But the truth of the matter is, the world needs your

patience in the department store, your holding open of doors, your party

escorting services, your propensity to be a sucker for a pretty smile.

For all the crazy, inane, absurd things you tolerate, for all the situations

where you are the faceless, nameless hero, my accolades, my acknowledgement,

and my gratitude go out to you. You do have credibility in this society,

and your well deserved vindication is coming.



NJL


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## Delhi (Dec 8, 2005)

Nice post,

But this sort of thing makes me sick. Its time the nice blokes stopped being "Nice". The reason that she does not want you is SHE DOES NOT FANCY YOU. STOP BEING HER LITTLE PUPPY.

Look, from my years of experience (LOL) women go out with males that they find attractive. And they are willing to "take a risk" with an erse ole for the same resons that you and I would take a risk on a beautiful young female that was otherwise a nutter.

Let me put it this way; There are as many "Nice girls" are there are "Nice blokes" out there. Think about them.......... they are usually the ones who you are not attracted too, but they always speak nice to you / want to do things for you. But you dont notice any of this because you would not touch them with a barge pole..

I spent years of my life chasing a "Friend" and I tried every trick in the book at the time to "Impress" her. I did not get her in the end and eventually I moved on..............broken hearted.

I later meet my now wife (Who is a 1000 times the woman she ever was), and I am defo glad of the way my life has turned out.

But here is the strange part: I genuinely, 100% would not go near her (Friend) now, even if she offered it for free.

Even if I was not with my wife and she (Friend) asked me out I would say no way I have moved on to bigger and better things.........................

Moral of the story is this:

If you like a lass, ask her out, if she says no MOVE ON.


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## Timmy Smooth (Nov 24, 2004)

I had a threesome with my friend. And her friend. It got very friendly. And they didn't mind cleaning up the mess afterwards.

Well, what are friends for, eh?


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## Lorian (Apr 9, 2003)

_-NaTh-_ said:


> And perhaps more disturbing, the nice guys don't seem to get laid as often as they should.
> 
> And I wish I could logically explain this trend, but I can't.


Nice guys by virtue of their very nature are not able to provide a wide enough range of emotional experience to hold an attractive girls interest beyond friendship.



L


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## HIGHLANDER1436114513 (Apr 11, 2006)

Lorian said:


> Nice guys by virtue of their very nature are not able to provide a wide enough range of emotional experience to hold an attractive girls interest beyond friendship.
> 
> 
> 
> L


That is like not getting your first ever job as your always told you dont have enough experience,doesnt mean your not equipped or couldnt do it better than the next person,just never given a bloody chance.

Why do most of the attractive girls pick/go out with the idiots ie no brains,just an ego and a reputation to live up to.I"ll be vetting both of my daughters boy friends when that time comes around,size wins respect every time with those type of guys.Just so happens I"ve got a few other things to my bow aswell

Highlander:cool:


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## Lorian (Apr 9, 2003)

HIGHLANDER said:


> That is like not getting your first ever job as your always told you dont have enough experience,doesnt mean your not equipped or couldnt do it better than the next person,just never given a bloody chance.


Fair comment. I'll rephrase my answer:

Nice guys by virtue of their very nature do not display the prospect of providing a wide enough range of emotional experience for an attractive girl to be tempted to enter into a relationship with them in the first place. In those rare circumstances where girls do enter into such relationships 'nice guys' are unable to provide the emotional stimulation required to hold her interest beyond a few months, 1 year tops (if the sex is good).



L


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## Tatyana (Jan 29, 2006)

Have you ever thought of an older woman?

:target:

x

x

x

T


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## Lorian (Apr 9, 2003)

Tatyana said:


> Have you ever thought of an older woman?


In what position?



L


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## bigdaftjoe (Nov 21, 2005)

nice guys ha! tried it once but never again now they all claim they hate me until they get me alone!


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Why would a woman want a nice guy in the first place to be a boyfriend?

After all she has a male friend that she can talk to, vent on, get advice from, help her and she gets this all and doesnt have to put out.

If a man is a friend to the woman thinking he is going to go somewhere deeper than the frendship already is, I got news for ya.

It wont happen.


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## Tatyana (Jan 29, 2006)

Lorian said:


> In what position?
> 
> 
> 
> L


 

x

x

x

T


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## HIGHLANDER1436114513 (Apr 11, 2006)

Lorian said:


> Fair comment. I'll rephrase my answer:
> 
> Nice guys by virtue of their very nature do not display the prospect of providing a wide enough range of emotional experience for an attractive girl to be tempted to enter into a relationship with them in the first place. In those rare circumstances where girls do enter into such relationships 'nice guys' are unable to provide the emotional stimulation required to hold her interest beyond a few months, 1 year tops (if the sex is good).
> 
> ...


Ok,can you expand on what type of emotional experiences someone would not be equipped with/display to attract the opposite sex,without actually being able to interact and develop them while in a relationship.

Again it boils down to what do women look for in a guy,what kind of characteristics should he portray to attract one,as first impressions last,but you cant judge a book by its cover so shy,considerate.attractive,attentative,rounded educationaly,confident does not cut it.Should it be loud,brash,self opionated,arragant,over confident look at me type of guy (ok both abit overly sterotyped) attracts the females more.Surely their isnt a personnality that is inbetween.You girls sure are hardto please and dont all sing the same song,on the other hand we look for LOOKS GREAT,AND SEX,SEX,SEX, SEE THATS NOT DIFFICULT IS IT. 

Highlander


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## Tinytom (Sep 16, 2005)

What Lorian is getting at is that when you have something that works well all the time and needs little work to keep it running smoothly you get used to it and it becomes normal.

Like driving a ferrari everyday would eventually get boring and you'd welcome the chance to give a racing mini a quick spin.

'Nice guys' do everything for their woman and therefore become just another thing that the woman owns because it is always available for use.

Now the guy who sometimes gets angry and shouts or sometimes goes out with his mates and doesn't call or who sometimes forgets an important date, that requires work and mental input from the woman in order to 'fix' the problem. This creates a stimulus and the woman is rewarded in herself when th eman conforms and runs smoothly for a while until the next breakdown.

The same is true when you reverse the scenario.

A nice guy who never displays his 'male' side but instead is docile and subservient to the womans needs becomes a plaything which eventually leads the woman to discard him for a more enjoyable and exciting model.

Don't get me wrong, I abhor violence and agression towards anyone in a relationship but you've got to have some sort of spark to keep th erelationship going, everyone is human and everyone likes to feel needed and wanted, the 'nice guy' traditionally will get by on less attention from the female than she gives to him. Therefore the relationship is not equal due to this subconcious arrangment.


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## the_gre8t_1ne (Apr 18, 2005)

Tinytom said:


> What Lorian is getting at is that when you have something that works well all the time and needs little work to keep it running smoothly you get used to it and it becomes normal.
> 
> Like driving a ferrari everyday would eventually get boring and you'd welcome the chance to give a racing mini a quick spin.
> 
> ...


 Amen Brother...


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## pookie69 (Apr 20, 2006)

Lorian said:


> Nice guys by virtue of their very nature are not able to provide a wide enough range of emotional experience to hold an attractive girls interest beyond friendship.
> 
> 
> 
> L


OK - reading that just depressed the crap outta me 



Tatyana said:


> Have you ever thought of an older woman?


I am HUGELY attracted to older women incidentally 

I'm 24 and am friends with a 40 yr old lady who flirts with me shamelessly! I so wanna go there... but i don't think i should


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## _-NaTh-_ (Jan 18, 2006)

I understand what Tom's saying. I guess i just picked the right girl at the wrong time.. Would love to talk to Tom about my dilema.

NJL


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## Tinytom (Sep 16, 2005)

PM me and I'll send you a link to a good site about male evolution and chatting up techniques etc etc


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## bigdaftjoe (Nov 21, 2005)

pookie yer *** get her smashed unless its yer ma?


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

pookie69 said:


> OK - reading that just depressed the crap outta me
> 
> I am HUGELY attracted to older women incidentally
> 
> I'm 24 and am friends with a 40 yr old lady who flirts with me shamelessly! I so wanna go there... but i don't think i should


Ah........I have news for you. That action would be very rewarding sexually to you.

Older women really know how to satisfy a man big time.

Some of the best sex I ever had came from a 50 year old woman that was looking to take care of my sexual needs.

She wasnt the prettiest but man she was a wild animal.

Older women dont like those obnixious, arrogent, immature type guys.


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## bigdaftjoe (Nov 21, 2005)

dont like or cant have?


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## pookie69 (Apr 20, 2006)

bigdaftjoe said:


> pookie yer *** get her smashed unless its yer ma?


LOL! No, it's not my ma!



hackskii said:


> Ah........I have news for you. That action would be very rewarding sexually to you.
> 
> Older women really know how to satisfy a man big time.


Well yea, that's what she keeps telling me! But i can't help but think she's only playing with me  - she gets off on seeing me blush and squirm, i'm certain!



> Some of the best sex I ever had came from a 50 year old woman that was looking to take care of my sexual needs.
> 
> She wasnt the prettiest but man she was a wild animal.


My friend is very yummy looking - definitely does not look her age - great legs and bum  . How old were you when you were involved with the 50 year old?


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## DB (Oct 31, 2003)

smash her mate... then i bet the desire to be with her soon goes..


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## the_gre8t_1ne (Apr 18, 2005)

^^Cant beat logic can ya^^? lol


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

pookie69 said:


> How old were you when you were involved with the 50 year old?


I was 37 at the time.

Funny thing 3 weeks earlier I had a 19 year old.

To be honest the 50 year old blew her out of the bedroom.

The 19 year old had a fantastic body but didnt know how to use it.

The 50 year old didnt have a fantastic body but knew how to use it.

On another note the 50 year old we could talk, the 19 year old we could not do anything like go to bars, Vegas, nowhere (drinking age is 21 in california), this limited our prospects of doing stuff.

But on a good note she could clean your house better than a hand full of single guys

She was wanting me to knock her up. She wanted a baby so I would take care of her.

This scarred the crap out of me.


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## wiseguy83 (Mar 26, 2006)

fcuk women lift weights!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!just sick to one nite stands its a lot eazyer.


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## pookie69 (Apr 20, 2006)

19 yr old all the way to 50?! Nice, i like a man who is open to anything and everything 

And for me personally, older women do it for me much moreso than young girlies my own age, but maybe that's only because i have never gotten it on with one and so maybe DB's right? The allure may well go away as soon as i've experienced it. Then again, maybe not!


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## bigdaftjoe (Nov 21, 2005)

hackskii said:


> I was 37 at the time.
> 
> Funny thing 3 weeks earlier I had a 19 year old.
> 
> ...


freudian?


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## wiseguy83 (Mar 26, 2006)

stop been a niceguy and become a WISEGUY!it worked for me mate hard as nails my heart now.ka peesh!lol


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## Gridlock1436114498 (Nov 11, 2004)

There is one basic rule you have to know in order to understand women,

*
The MOST important thing to a woman is building and maintaining social status.*

*
*

*
*What a woman looks for in a man is the ability to increase her own social status by being associated with him.

In short a woman wants a man who has higher social status than her.

What are the signs of social status? well - looks & fitness, money and power, intelligence, the ability to be a leader, drive and determination, confidence, number of friends/social group.

Signs of low social status - unfortunately - being a nice guy.- nice guys don't crave and demand power, nice guys don't lead, nice guys don't go out there and get what they want.

Unfortunately when you pander to a woman, tell her she is amazing, buy her things, admire her, compliment her - you are giving her the sign * you are better than me * and in turn - * I lower your social status *.

So.....A woman wants a man who she thinks is better than her, the guy knows or thinks she is below him and so treats her like ****. The worse he treats her the higher value she thinks he has compared to her, the more she likes him.

This incidentally is one of the reasons it is hard to get a woman into bed, sleeping with guys has NEGATIVE social implications for a woman, to be seen as a slag lowers her social status.


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## DB (Oct 31, 2003)

excellent post grid


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Wow Grid.

Nice...


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## chemist (May 17, 2006)

That is so true.


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## Ralphy (Mar 13, 2006)

Oh man dont know how I missed this thread.

Great posts by Lorian, Tom and Gridlock.

Me myself i've tried Mr Nice Guy and what a load of crap that turned out to be. Everytime i've treated a girl nice, paid her compliments, taken her to nice places etc etc etc, the relationship has just fizzled out in no longer than say 3 months.

I'm currently in the longest relationship i've ever had, 14 months. When I first got with my girlfriend, I was seeing someone else which meant she always had to be on best form to "compete" with the other chick. This gave the beginning of the relationship that spark and kept her on her toes! Also in the early days she asked me "how many people have you slept with?", when I told her she was gobsmacked. I honestly think if I was single when we met and I said i've only slept with 2 people like a good little boy, she would not have been so eager to tie me down as she was. I was a *challenge* (now thats a word which hasn't yet been mentioned). Imo and experience, women always want what they cant have...bags, shoes, watches, Jewellery, cars, homes, holidays and.....MEN! Well men they think they'll struggle to have/tie down.

In my case, the sneaking around at the beginning of the relationship may have given me this "bad boy" image which she may have taken a liking to as I believe a lot of women do.

On the other hand when i've shown absolutely no interest in a woman i.e. when I let it be known I want one thing only, the woman will be bang on my case as if im the last man on earth, now why is this:confused: . Or i've taken a girl out (and may have slept with her) and dont show her much attention after because I weren't feeling her, she wants to start naming babies "if it's a boy, we'll call him..."LMAO

Naturally, i'm Mr nice guy and there's no doubt in my mind most girls do not like this! The old saying "treat 'em mean keep 'em keen" springs to mind.

Ralphy


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## SNOWY (Mar 27, 2006)

rep for gridlock.

we have TV, magazines, lifestyle telling us what they think we should want but it still doesn't get rid of the primative desire.

women describe their ideal man, i want a humourous, intelligent, kind, honest, who will adore me.

but they don't or atleast that's not what they really want


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## pookie69 (Apr 20, 2006)

hackskii said:


> Wow Grid.
> 
> Nice...


Yea - jebus christ man. Where'd you pick up on all that sh!t?

The truth has never been so clear to me before. It's like i was hit by an epiphany after having read your post... :|... 

EDIT:- i wanna hear some input from the women on this board - what are you girlies REALLY thinking?


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## Spangle1187 (Jul 27, 2006)

Three rules to keeping a relationship

1. they have their life

2. you have your life

3. and the life you have together

lol


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## Peg (Feb 9, 2006)

gridlock said:


> The MOST important thing to a woman is building and maintaining *social status*.
> 
> What a woman looks for in a man is the ability to increase her own social status by being associated with him. I think that men want this *status* more than women do, I don't think it is strictly a woman's criteria. I don't think it is *THE *thing she looks for in a man.
> 
> ...


I thought grid's post on UKM on why nice guys finish last was interesting. It was a man's point of view transposed on a woman. It was not from the woman's heart, but it was from a man's heart interpreting a woman's heart. Interesting that the men understood it and identified with it.

*Status* is the wrong word to use.

Confident authoritative leadership would be more accurate.

Men and women see this differently. This is where the confusion lies.

A woman wants to feel cherished not pandered to. A man interprets cherished monetarily and good manners, as in giving gifts, complimenting her etc... for the sake of pandering. He intreprets so because in his mind spending his money and time on the woman is how he shows affection since the earning of money and time away from earning money is part of the man's identity and worth and a giving of himself to the woman.

Interesting that the men use the words *challenge, adore, status* in their posts. These are all things men prefer in a relationship with a woman. They want the challenge of the chase, they want the woman to adore him, they want a higher status than the other men around them.

A woman wants a man who she can connect to emotionally, physically and mentally. She wants a strong man that respects and honors her femininity and identity as a woman and the beauty that she is. (mental, spiritual as well as physical beauty)

She wants a man who is strong enough to protect her soul, provide for her soul, and cherishes her soul enough to always pursue her beauty and not take her for granted. She wants the strong gentleman who walks in the room and commands an understated respect and deference from all who are there. He can be a nice man and most probably is socially, though he can be ruthless in his career, but a gentleman par excellence with his beauty on his arm. She will be beautiful too, maybe not that hollywood gorgeous, but the deepest beauty within shining outward because her femininity will flow through his masculinity and cause her own understated respect and deference from all who are there.

*
Nice men who are wimps and can't lead finish last*. Nice men who understand true masculinity in themselves and true femininity in a woman and lovingly lead the relationship are the winners before the men who think only to treat women like ****.

Women who feel like they must be treated like **** do not have a clear understanding of what true femininity is. It is not masculinity in a woman's body. It is woman, pure woman different from man. He leads, she responds.

Women are responders by design. If you treat her like **** she will respond to that. At some point she will leave you for the nice man who respects her femininity and leads with confidence such that he doesn't have pride issues, self confidence issues that he has to treat her like ****. He understands the woman's heart. There is a mutual respect and adoration such that gifts are given not for pandering but for thanksgiving by both man and woman for each other.

It is not about social status. That's a man's interpretation based on his masculinity's view of chain of command and success by status, power, and money.

*
It is about how she can be her most beautiful.*


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## leopard1436114517 (Aug 23, 2006)

If you are a nice guy like every over man in a club i.e can i buy you a drink? or you are beautiful then why the hell would she pick you over any other guy if you bring nothing new to the table?

Confident with a bit of humour i.e take the pi55 out of them like you would your freinds e.g "you have man hands" then crack a sly smile or when a women asks you questions like what do you do as a living? how old are you? whats your name? just hit back with a "what is this a job interview?" What you should be looking for is a punch on the arm from a girl but she is laughing.

any of you guys want any more tips PM me and any of you ladies that are average looking also PM me


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## leopard1436114517 (Aug 23, 2006)

I mean average looking and above PM me


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## Tatyana (Jan 29, 2006)

Good answer Peg.

Money doesn't mean ****E to me in choosing a man. Yah it is nice, and if he is being fully masculine, he will probably succeed well in his choosen career path.

Yes it is nice to be picked up in a car that was the same amount I bought my flat for, taken out by a model, a super rich business man, however, if the man is a ****ER, the novelty wears off FAST!

x

x

x

T


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## Keyser Soze (Dec 12, 2005)

Tatyana said:


> Good answer Peg.
> 
> Money doesn't mean ****E to me in choosing a man. Yah it is nice, and if he is being fully masculine, he will probably succeed well in his choosen career path.
> 
> ...


Absolutely - the flipside to all that of course, is that a lot of women seem to be under the misapprehension that all WE men want is a eye candy on the town, a master chef in the kitchen and a great shag between the sheets. All those things ARE fantastic, but we too get bored if she can't hold a convo or outright put off if she isn't affectionate.

And that's OUR fault, this misapprehension, let me be the first to admit it...we don't yak enough about what ELSE we want, so how the hell are you (plural!) to know?!?!??!

Keyser.


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## David Lloyd (Mar 22, 2006)

hackskii said:


> Why would a woman want a nice guy in the first place to be a boyfriend?
> 
> After all she has a male friend that she can talk to, vent on, get advice from, help her and she gets this all and doesnt have to put out.
> 
> .


EXACTLY

(some) women will get all their mental stimulation from a male friend who makes her laugh, gives advice and would always look after etc etc

she then seeks her sexual gratification from some drugged up ex convict wanted for murder (and extreme example but there ya go)

lete me intorduce you to the LADDER theory (if u havent already heard)

once you are on the friends ladder there is no turning back

do not get on that ladder

read and learn nice boys

http://www.intellectualwhores.com/masterladder.html


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## Tatyana (Jan 29, 2006)

David Lloyd said:


> EXACTLY
> 
> (some) women will get all their metal stimulation from a male friend who makes her laugh, gives advise and would always look after
> 
> ...


I must be different, cause if I don't get the brain stimulation, not much else gets stimulated either!

I think having a friend that is a lover is a much better way to work out if you want to be in a serious relationship with someone.

If you think that you will be having animalistic, cave man sex at 70 to bolt your relationship together, think again!

Now while I intend to have sex till I am in the ground, I really don't think that full on bedroom acrobatics will be available to me at that age. However, my brain is the largest sex organ in my body!

x

x

x

T


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## David Lloyd (Mar 22, 2006)

Tatyana said:


> I must be different, cause if I don't get the brain stimulation, not much else gets stimulated either!
> 
> I think having a friend that is a lover is a much better way to work out if you want to be in a serious relationship with someone.
> 
> ...


all will conform to the ladder theory

there are no exceptions

if u read the ladder theory it make it clear that women will try and deny all knowledge of behaving in this way

example - above


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## DB (Oct 31, 2003)

lmfao!!^


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## Keyser Soze (Dec 12, 2005)

David Lloyd said:


> all will conform to the ladder theory
> 
> there are no exceptions


"We are the Borg. You will be assimilated. Resistance is futile."


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## David Lloyd (Mar 22, 2006)

Keyser Soze said:


> "We are the Borg. You will be assimilated. Resistance is futile."


erm yeah

what he said


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## Tatyana (Jan 29, 2006)

pookie69 said:


> Yea - jebus christ man. Where'd you pick up on all that sh!t?
> 
> The truth has never been so clear to me before. It's like i was hit by an epiphany after having read your post... :|...
> 
> EDIT:- i wanna hear some input from the women on this board - what are you girlies REALLY thinking?


According to David Llyod, we don't think for ourselves!

A bit of a social theory Nazi IMHO!

LOL everyone conforms-resistance is futile-LMAO!

x

x

x

T


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## David Lloyd (Mar 22, 2006)

Tatyana said:


> According to David Llyod, we don't think for ourselves!
> 
> x
> 
> ...


it wasnt me who devised the theory

dont shoot the messanger

and neither i nor the theory ever said women cant think for yourselves anyway


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## Tinytom (Sep 16, 2005)

Agree with the Ladder theory

Hard to make that transition unless the woman fancies the man from the beginning and is using the friendship as a ruse to get him.

There's so much more difference between a woman's body language towards a man she views as a friend and that of a potential mate who she is friendly with.

These friend-mates are all irons in the fire and just need the correct environment in order to elicit a 'conversion'. e.g. the two office workers who get it on once they are out on a staff party etc etc.


----------



## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Tatyana said:


> Now while I intend to have sex till I am in the ground, I really don't think that full on bedroom acrobatics will be available to me at that age.


I got news for you hun, in the absense of estrogen your lips dry up, get thin, and intercourse is painfull.

Just ask any manopausal woman.

Now if you opt for hormone replacement therapy that would be another story.


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## Ironball (Sep 22, 2004)

fukc this shti.


----------



## Tatyana (Jan 29, 2006)

hackskii said:


> I got news for you hun, in the absense of estrogen your lips dry up, get thin, and intercourse is painfull.
> 
> Just ask any manopausal woman.
> 
> Now if you opt for hormone replacement therapy that would be another story.


ERM LUBE!

LOL

x

x

x

T


----------



## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Tatyana said:


> ERM LUBE!
> 
> LOL
> 
> ...


Sorry, the libido will be gone as well.

Intercourse is painfull to some in the absense of estrogen.

Progesterone can spark sex drive some as well.

The only real alternative is HRT.

Lube is like putting a bandaid on a bruise


----------



## Ironball (Sep 22, 2004)

Sounds like hackskii has had much experience in this field. Unlucky mate

Oh yeah when do women get the menopause? It sounds like all these 20 odd year olds have been trying to let me down gently instead of saying 'fook off you are an ugly barsteward'


----------



## Tatyana (Jan 29, 2006)

hackskii said:


> Sorry, the libido will be gone as well.
> 
> Intercourse is painfull to some in the absense of estrogen.
> 
> ...


Thanks for making my day.

AND everyone is different Scott!

There are some old ladies that love sex!

x

x

x

T


----------



## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Ironball said:


> Sounds like hackskii has had much experience in this field. Unlucky mate
> 
> Oh yeah when do women get the menopause? It sounds like all these 20 odd year olds have been trying to let me down gently instead of saying 'fook off you are an ugly barsteward'


It can start as early as 40 (some cases earlier) and some will still have periods in their 50's.

Surgery can toss a woman into menopause too.

For some it is worse than others.

My girlfriend is going through menopause or pre-menopause but she drives her car with the air on and I am freezing my ass off and she says it is hot.

Hot flashes are estrogen withdrawl.

I knew a lady that was the nicest lady in the world, she went through menopause and for about a good 5 years was a real bitch. I never seen a Dr. Jeckle and Mrs. Hyde like that in my life.

She was serously out of control.

No wonder why so many men leave their wives during this time, I can see why.


----------



## Peg (Feb 9, 2006)

http://www.intellectualwhores.com/masterladder.html

Curse you all to hell if you cheapen the love of a woman and the giving of herself to a man with such a theory as the Ladder theory.

And it is a sad day to me, if the young women and men are believing this crap

about what a relationship is all about and what women want if today's woman indeed only wants what the graph suggests.

Interesting that the graphs are written in terms that men understand.

Power, looks, other things...

*A woman sizes up a man with one thing in mind. Is he trustworthy?*

EVERYTHING else falls underneath this umbrella.

The criteria used in the theory's charts are *important to men *because the heart of a man is to battle and win and be superior. I will say that field study is biased towards the man's perspective.

Do you men really even care what the heart of woman is or needs?

I'm so full of intense angry frustrated emotions right at the moment that I'm going to stop until I can get control of them.

Incorrect conclusions have been drawn from the axioms because the axioms have been misinterpreted.

:axe: :rage: :gun:  :mmph: :mmph: :frusty: :rage::rage::rage:


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Tatyana said:


> Thanks for making my day.
> 
> AND everyone is different Scott!
> 
> ...


This is true, there is always exceptions to the rule.

But I go news for ya.

Positive thinking on your part (denial) wont help you here.

You might be the exception or you might not.

If you go through hell during menopause HRT is really the way to go.

You should consider it if only for osteoperosis benefits alone.

The new bio-identical crazy and compounding pharmacies are everywhere and taking off.

I have seen a woman go on this and she thanked me for feeling better than she felt in 10 years.

I was reading that Suzanne Summers book The Sexy Years and she kept stealing it from me reading it.

In the back of the book there were lists of bio HRT docs and she used one of them and has been thanking me ever sense.

So, dont rule out the obvious that maybe you might be a candidate for HRT and maybe not.

Many feel that it is hormones that have the biggest effect on aging.

The book that I am reading now aludes to this.

I believe it myself.

There have been studies on just supplementing HGH alone and are very impressive results.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Peg said:


> Do you men really even care what the heart of woman is or needs?


I am and I listen to everything you say.

I know the deal, it aint about battling it is about getting along and compromise is just part of the game.

Otherwise it is just cause and effect and not even love.

I must be old as I do understand.

Calm down Peg, I will send you a naked pick of me ok? 

Just kidding I dont have any.....

Bet I made you laugh tho....heee heee


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## pookie69 (Apr 20, 2006)

David Lloyd said:


> all will conform to the ladder theory
> 
> there are no exceptions


LOL! ound:

This thread is providing a nice guy like myself much food for thought. Thanks guys! 



hackskii said:


> Lube is like putting a bandaid on a bruise


LOL!

Oh man, this thread is cracking me up! 

I feel really sorry for women now, and me. I wanted to carry on having sex with my future wife till i was in the ground too! And now i hear that she will be all dry and won't wanna anyway... 

Are you SURE that's true Scott????????


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

pookie69 said:


> LOL! ound:
> 
> Are you SURE that's true Scott????????


Yah, but it depends alot on the woman.

Estrogen still gets produced, not at the same rate as before.

Menopause doesn't mean the end of estrogen though. your body stores estrogen in your body fat and your adrenal glands make estrogen too.

So yah for some this is true, I didnt say all as there are always exceptions to the rule and a woman on HRT wont be in this group.

Hey, dont feel bad. When testosterone declines you will lose the desire as well.

Depending on the man, ED is a way of life.

Not all libido issues with men are associated with low testosterone levels.

circulation is critical to the function of the heart and sexual organs, Dopamine deficiency, zinc deficiency, too little or too much estrogen, too much prolactin, weak levator ani muscles (penis muscles), medications, even thyroid has an effect on libido.

You might be in the same boat as her.

But HRT is available and more understood than ever before.

i suspect by the time you guys get my age, this will be a finely tuned practice.


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## pookie69 (Apr 20, 2006)

hackskii said:


> You might be in the same boat as her.


 

Man, this is depressing. I had better quit being such a nice guy and start getting tenfold the action now whilst i still can!


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

pookie69 said:


> Man, this is depressing. I had better quit being such a nice guy and start getting tenfold the action now whilst i still can!


Ah, knowledge is power.

I am on my last pages of the book and he has some natural remedies that will possibly elevate lagging testosterone levels and a good little bit on vasodialators he suggests.

*For erections.*

He suggests flexing the kegal(sp) muscles in the penis when you are thinking about it. Said to fix 50% of ED problems (atrophied penis)

That and some Ginko Biloba, ginseng, L-Dope (this looks promising), along with zinc (natural aromatase inhibitor), and resvertrol to improve the liver P450 system.

Maybe I will take the time and type up some stuff out of the book.


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## Ironball (Sep 22, 2004)

hackskii said:


> Ah, knowledge is power.
> 
> I am on my last pages of the book and he has some natural remedies that will possibly elevate lagging testosterone levels and a good little bit on vasodialators he suggests.
> 
> ...


I did someof those kegels for a few weeks ages ago. Never had a problem getting a boner or nothing but they are supposed to make your nob better working. Anyway I think they work because I kept getting boners and my pop shot was beter than a pornstars. Made me seem to get the urge more though so I gave up because I did not have a missus and getting boners more often just reminded me of that fact


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Well, it is like the muscles in your penis.

So if that does not get worked then it might atrophy.

But according to the doc those exercises helped 50% of the men without doing anything else.

Hey, I am doing them now while I am at work typing......LMAO.....

All that and getting paid


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## David Lloyd (Mar 22, 2006)

Peg said:


> http://www.intellectualwhores.com/masterladder.html
> 
> Curse you all to hell if you cheapen the love of a woman and the giving of herself to a man with such a theory as the Ladder theory.
> 
> ...


you can go ahead in live in your little fantasy land with pixies and fairys if thats what makes u happy - and i hope it works out for you i really do

the rest of us realistic folk who are slightley less delusional will live in the real world


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## DB (Oct 31, 2003)

David Lloyd said:


> you can go ahead in live in your little fantasy land with pixies and fairys if thats what makes u happy - and i hope it works out for you i really do
> 
> the rest of us realistic folk who are slightley less delusional will live in the real world


lol i have to agree things arnt like that i'm afraid imo


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## Ironman (Jul 12, 2005)

The heart - imo they have 2 uses

1) they pump blood around the body and sustain life.

2) when they no longer function as use (1) they can be cut up and fed as dog food


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## Tatyana (Jan 29, 2006)

David Lloyd said:


> you can go ahead in live in your little fantasy land with pixies and fairys if thats what makes u happy - and i hope it works out for you i really do
> 
> the rest of us realistic folk who are slightley less delusional will live in the real world


I love it when people refer to themselves as 'realistic'. Yah I get peeps grow up fast, however....

Throw some deep insightful philsophy and create something rather than repeat how ****e the world is, how rubbish relationships and people are. BORING BORING BORING.

I also find it intellectually lazy.



Ok on the nature of reality. It may just be what you say it is, how you think it to be.

I would rather be on the happy happy joy joy side of things 

Big Cyber Hugs

x

x

x

T


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

I find it amusing for the young find the older folks are out of touch with reality.

I thought my parents were clueless but as I grow older I can't get over how much they were trying to direct me and I rebelling.

I guess this will be the same with my daughter so to speak.

I see Peg's point, I actually agree with it.

I think the colorfull picture she was painting seemed a bit unrealistic but the dept of what she said should actually be taken noticed.

After all if women are responders, what role does this tell you that a man plays?


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## David Lloyd (Mar 22, 2006)

come on iron man, DB, Tiny Tom etc - you gonna let me battle this one out on my own are ya

ok Tatyana here's some deep philosophy for you

now this is how it is with my age group eg 18-30

usually the older the woman is, the wiser she is and is usually fed up with the bad boy t0ssers and actually (maybe) wants to find a decent guy

I have witnessed many a NICE guy get royally fcked over by their girls because they are NICE (myself included - although i dont expect u to believe that)

as it states in the ladder theory - "things that girls say they want but actually dont"

they say they want a nice guy but when presenting with one they quickly get bored and discard them like a bit of cum filled tissue

then spend ages complaining they hate men - they are all [email protected] - when infact it is their fault for ignoring the nice ones and picknig the B'stards in the first place

some of my male mates, are b"stards to their girl friends - they never call them back - turn up late, cheat on them - u name it - and the girls cant get enough of it - even when they know the guys reputation they still seem to be drawn to him

my mate who has shagged half of london - has gorgeous girls queuing up at the door even though the girls are fully aware of his reputation as a bad boy, weapon dealing/ cheating liar

i'm not saying i like it but GENERALLY this is the way it is. yes there are some exceptions and tatyana - u may well be one - but u saying that means exactly nothing as pretty much every woman i have met has said this to me in the first instance, only to turn out to be EXACTLY like all the rest

(i'm not like other girls - yeah and how may time have i heard that today) -

i actually hate the way that some blokes have to actually try to be perceived as 'bad' in order to get a girl - i think its pathetic

the whole playing game thing - acting not interested - playing hard to get

man i have been playin this game for 15 year - i'm fcking fed up of it

personally although i agree with the ladder theory i dont believe you should change who u are and act that way- i think u should be yourself - and if you are nice - stay that way

and if they dont like it they can fck off (and its a sad fact that most of them will)


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## DB (Oct 31, 2003)

I really do agree with david Lloyd on this one&#8230;

100% it may be our age and the age of girls we encounter but he is bang on the money imo

Peg I cant see anything in your post that has ever come across me in my life (yes I am only 23)

A woman sizes up a man with one thing in mind. Is he trustworthy?

EVERYTHING else falls underneath this umbrella.

I have never ever seen that before!! A nice guy who is trust worth will always find it harder to get a girl than a 'bad boy'

My bro is as good as gold and is always just a good friend&#8230; he always has girls ringing him up to tell him their problems and goes out to drinks with girls but never gets anywhere.. why is this?? Because he is too nice and trustworthy!!


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## Tatyana (Jan 29, 2006)

I love men 

x

x

x

T


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## David Lloyd (Mar 22, 2006)

DB said:
 

> I really do agree with david Lloyd on this one&#8230;
> 
> 100% it may be our age and the age of girls we encounter but he is bang on the money imo
> 
> ...


oh man i feel for him i know what thats like - it like u are paying for all these other [email protected] mistakes


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## David Lloyd (Mar 22, 2006)

Tatyana said:


> I love men
> 
> x
> 
> ...


i dont

i hate them

most of them are w'nkers and leave us nice blokes to pic up all the pieces

yes believe it or not tatyana i am one of those nice bloke's

(sometimes  )


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## Tatyana (Jan 29, 2006)

David Lloyd said:


> i dont
> 
> i hate them
> 
> ...


You won't like how this sounds I suspect, I see the beauty in everyone, or the pain, so I have love and compassion for people.

Much easier than hating. Hating eats me up, cause yes, there have been people that I hate too.

It is so lovely you want to pick up the pieces, but the woman has to do it herself. Of course you can be there while she does it, but not letting her struggle a bit is robbing her of one of the experiences she will grow most from.

x

x

x

T


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## Tatyana (Jan 29, 2006)

Lily said:


> This is an interesting read........
> 
> being an older woman (yep 31 is classed as old now:boohoo: ) I have had my fair share of complete and utter bastards........mainly menatlly and physically abusive from my ex (but thats another story) but i wouldt say i stayed with my ex because i loved the bad boy image he had, yeah he had a reputation for being a fighter and dabbling abit into drugs, womanising, drinking etc, i stayed with him because i was absolutly terrified for my life and this guy was supposed to love me, yeah right.
> 
> ...


I am an older woman as well hun.

I really loved the bad boy, and still have a soft spot for bad boys (Predacious!).

As I have been single for awhile, I can so see that younger women do not always appreciate their partners.

On the flip side:

It is frightening how many women have been in abusive relationships, and I so get that men suffer big style from it as well.

x

x

x

T


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## David Lloyd (Mar 22, 2006)

this is good

we are starting to agree on a few things here


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## Tinytom (Sep 16, 2005)

Sorry but I've got to come down on DB and DL's side here.

The older the women the more they grow aware of their body clock and the necessity to settle down with a man. They can be less reliant on their looks to attract men and so have to be more in touch with their emotions - same goes for guys.

I have to reiterate what I said before about women (and men) requiring a mental stimulus from a relationship to keep it going. I've been out with girls who are beautiful and trustworthy and who are truly 'nice girls' but there's always something missing, I think as you become more familiar with each other you get used to each other and fit in with each other. This means that there are less instances of conflict as you both know where your boundaries are. This reduces the mental stimulus but when you are older this is replaced by the love aspect whereby you become best friends and start to do everything together.

I still think that the reason that players or bad boys are so successful is that they provide a touch of excitement to a woman I mean who wants a guy that will just lay over all the time.

However women play this game as well, its not just limited to men and bad boys.

The perfect boyfriend would be one that plays this game to perfection, affectionate when need be and beligerent when the time calls for it. This isn't a bad thing because if you truly love someone you wouldn't let them walk over you. Thats obsession/infatuation.

I would recommend anyone to read 'Games people Play' - cna't remember the author but it is an awesome psycology book. Read it and you'll understand why things happen the way they do in relationships, not just between male and females but also in groups.


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## David Lloyd (Mar 22, 2006)

Tatyana said:


> I am an older woman as well hun.
> 
> *I really loved the bad boy, and still have a soft spot for bad boys (Predacious!).*
> 
> ...


nuff said

i'm wandering why u were in disagreement with me to begin with :rolleye11


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

David Lloyd said:


> oh man i feel for him i know what thats like - it like u are paying for all these other [email protected] mistakes


Why would you feel for him?

After all he is actually socializing and interacting with the opposite sex.

When you guys get older, you will notice that all the conquests in the world me nothing in comparison to finding the right woman to spend the rest of your lives with.

All those one night stands, sexual encounters will mean nothing when you find your love of your life.

All that is just chopped liver.

I am willing to bet that I have slept with more women than 10 of you lads put together.

I have slept with more than 100 women in my life and the list keeps going.

Am I looking for a shag buddy?..................Nope.

What am I looking for?........................My soulmate.

Now my point.

When fishing you need the right bait go get the fish you are looking for.

Do you honestly think that the woman of your dreams is going to fall for a bad guy?

How long before she opt's out of this relationship?

To me, looking at chicks strictly on appearance is rather shallow. There is a real person hiding under all that skin and flesh.

Do I guess DB's brother has it all over you lads as he see's the woman on the inside.

I would not feel sorry for him, I respect him and that is quite an admirable quality.

When it is all said and done you still have to look in the mirror.


----------



## DB (Oct 31, 2003)

excellent post tom!!


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## David Lloyd (Mar 22, 2006)

hackskii said:


> *Why would you feel for him?*
> 
> After all he is actually socializing and interacting with the opposite sex.
> 
> ...


ok here we go

top 15 reasons why i feel sorry for him

1. having to listen women moan about how all men are [email protected] when the nice guy (DB's bro) is not being given a chance

2. watching girls he like/loves, feels for fall for bad boys and getr treated like sh!t regardless of how much he warns them

3. not getting laid

4. being told he is just a friend

5. getting heart broken once he is given a chance

6. not getting laid

7. getting walked all over and taken advantage of

8. rejection

9. him perpetually tryin to assure her there are nice blokes about really

10. losing confidence

11. losing faith in mankind

12. losing faith in females

13. losing faith in himself

14. him (possibly) thinking he should change himself for the worst in order to get the girl he likes

15. not getting laid


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

David Lloyd said:


> ok here we go
> 
> top 15 reasons why i feel sorry for him
> 
> ...


That is quite extreme for a guy respecting the opposite sex.

I was young once too.

Do you actually think that I can not relate to what you are saying?

I have been there and I have dont that.

None of you boys were or are as much of a bad boy than me.

I have slept with married women, I have slept with tons of chicks and dumped them.

I have broken many hearts.

I got mine broken hard and after that for 10 years I did the heart breaking.

Is this fair?

Because my feelings are protected and the womans are not and I take advantage of this situation is this right?

If you read into my posts comming from a man almost 50, you will understand where I am going with this.

All you suggest I have done.

But I am done.

Its not all just fun and games.

Life is not a game, it is an adventure.

It is never fair to inflict hurt on anyone, whether it is intentional or on accident.

Open communication with your partner will open up your eyes.

I think Peg and myself are very similar in many ways.

I think she would be a supurb catch.

When you get older you will see your priorities change.

I know dont listen to me but some day down the road you might just remember what I am talking about and say....Dammit that old guy was right.

I understand myself I understand my feelings.


----------



## _-NaTh-_ (Jan 18, 2006)

I feel sorry for DB's brother becuase he probley gets what i get.

"All males are dick heads" while disproving the very point.

DB's little passage about his brother, reminds me alot of myself.

Except i guess i must have something different at the very same time becuase they end up wanting me.

I could rant and rave all day about them wanting me. You could even ask the question "Why've you made this thread? If you such a stud." It's because one girls got me.. good..

Note: Beauty isn't scar deep.

NJL


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## _-NaTh-_ (Jan 18, 2006)

hackskii said:


> I have broken many hearts.
> 
> I got mine broken hard and after that for 10 years I did the heart breaking.
> 
> ...


I did that for the past 2 years, After i broke my own heart. Then i realised what i was doing..

Heres an interesting read. about this

http://uk.askmen.com/dating/curtsmith/getiton15.html

NJL


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## David Lloyd (Mar 22, 2006)

hackskii said:


> That is quite extreme for a guy respecting the opposite sex.
> 
> I was young once too.
> 
> ...


in red above

i'm off to the gym now but will end by saying i love women

i used to hate them for reasons i have described above and the way the treat blokes

but now i realise that it is us MEN that make them behave this way in the first place

not me personally but the B'astards that trreat women like sh!t and make them lose their trust for all men there after

i have lost count of the times i have heard "i dont wana get in a relationshio with you cos i i am afraid of getting hurt again"

"or my ex wants to kill me"

or

"i'm still in love with my ex even though he used to hit me"

i even know 3 girls who have been raped - now their trust for men is now ruined for the rest of their lives

men are **** holes

i feel sorry for women

laterz


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## Tatyana (Jan 29, 2006)

Tinytom said:


> Sorry but I've got to come down on DB and DL's side here.
> 
> The older the women the more they grow aware of their body clock and the necessity to settle down with a man. What if a woman doesn't want to have children Tom?
> 
> I would recommend anyone to read 'Games people Play' - cna't remember the author but it is an awesome psycology book. Read it and you'll understand why things happen the way they do in relationships, not just between male and females but also in groups.


Dr. Eric Berne, also the author of I'm OK, Your're Ok.

 *GAMES PEOPLE PLAY*  READ it!

I like transactional analysis! However once you know and notice yourself playing the games.....................................................

That's when the fun begins!

x

x

x

T


----------



## Tatyana (Jan 29, 2006)

David Lloyd said:


> in red above
> 
> i'm off to the gym now but will end by saying i love women
> 
> ...


Baz pants has a brother?

There are two filthy little love monkies running around in the world?



x

x

x

T

It's ALL GOOD hun!


----------



## Tatyana (Jan 29, 2006)

David Lloyd said:


> i'm off to the gym now but will end by saying i love women


Ditto, off to gym again!

I will say it again

I LOVE MEN!

:bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce:

x

x

x

T


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Better to have loved once than never at all.


----------



## _-NaTh-_ (Jan 18, 2006)

Think you should read my link i posted T, about your comment "Takes two to tango" 

NJL


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## Tatyana (Jan 29, 2006)

_-NaTh-_ said:


> Think you should read my link i posted T, about your comment "Takes two to tango"
> 
> NJL


I must admit, I have gone out with a jerk before!

However, I did find the article a bit, oh poor poor me I had my heart broken. Yes it is terrible, however, it is also a time when you will probably grow the most as a person.

It's ALL GOOD.

I had my heart broken a year ago! I was really angry for awhile, not anymore.

I have had quite a few really nice boyfriends, one through high school, one through university, and I married a really nice man. Just a few anger and violence issues that were not going to get resolved!

Well, really, you have to be somewhat sensible.

Have to think about where you meet the guy and the approach to dating, if I met someone in a club, or on line, I would be far more cautious, whereas if they were a friend's friend or met because of uni or work, a little less cautious.

I am going to start dating again. It has been awhile!

Nice guys beware! :target:

x

x

x

T


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## Peg (Feb 9, 2006)

David Lloyd.

I am not delusional. I may be idealistic and a dreamer, but then those are the people that affect change in the world by not accepting status quo and fight to make the world a better place in which to live.

The Ladder Theroy bases its rating system of power, looks, and other things...

It says that a woman has two ladders and the man has one ladder.

It says that the dating game is all about a shag.

I contend the theory is biased towards a man's perspective that is then transposed on the woman's identity and thereby the conclusions based on the axioms are incorrect because the presuppostion is faulty from the get go.

I say that the dating game needs to be reconstructed.

*Both genders need to understand the core fears and needs of each other and learn to love not for selfish gain but love for the higher good of the other.*

It is a mindset. In the giving there is taking and/or there is taking in the giving. It seems to me that our world forgets the joy of giving until there is some horrid tragedy like 911 or natural disasters of earthquake or tidal waves.

*In relationships the dating is no longer what can I give to this relationship, it is more what can I take from it.*

*
That grieves my heart deeply.*

The trustworthiness is the resting of your mind and heart within another person's hands and hoping that person does not drop it on the cold floor and smash it unrecognizable. The bad boys are trusted with the body, the body less significant to the woman than to men, the heart and soul are trusted with the nice guys. Now TA comes into play and creates a fine web of outcomes and payoffs that complicate it even more when all that is wanted is to feel cherished and significant to the opposite gender.. The expressiono of that significance and cherish different for the genders because of their design.

The man wants to battle and be superior (he wants to win) in his life and he wants to pursue beauty. The woman wants to be the beauty of a man's life. To be that beauty she allows him to battle for her and shares her heart and feelings with him so he can help her win her battles.

I've talked about this in past posts on other threads.

Wild at Heart and Captivating.. Two books about genders and how to relate to each of them, if you want to read them.

The difficulty in communication and relationships arises when the opposite gender sees giving significance to the other from his/her own view of significance instead of the other's view of significance. The difficulty arises when one or the other or both genders are not fullfilling their design within the relationship. When you understand the design... the games of TA are no longer needed.

I just simply say see from the other person's eyes and let your love be that for the highest good of the other not yourself.

I think sometimes we complicate relationships too much with theories and psychology.

All that is needed is pure unadulterated love. We'd do better to spend our time on studying that and what that really is.


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## Tinytom (Sep 16, 2005)

Tatyana said:


> Dr. Eric Berne, also the author of I'm OK, Your're Ok.
> 
> *GAMES PEOPLE PLAY* READ it!
> 
> ...


Not talking about children Taty talking about the need to find someone to grow old with. Everyone gets this at some point


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## Tatyana (Jan 29, 2006)

Tinytom said:


> Not talking about children Taty talking about the need to find someone to grow old with. Everyone gets this at some point


LOL, it was just TA translated for children, but still TA.

Sorry I did learn that as a child! It has stuck in that simple form for me.

x

x

x

T


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## _-NaTh-_ (Jan 18, 2006)

Tatyana said:


> LOL, it was just TA translated for children, but still TA.


Tom was referring to the comment you made "What if a women doens't wish to have children"


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## big_nige (Apr 3, 2007)

at the end of the day become gay.

after sex u could share a protein shake and play 2 player on fifa 2007



lol


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## SCJP (Sep 8, 2005)

big_nige said:


> after sex u could share a protein shake


I thought the protein shake was part of sex?


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## big_nige (Apr 3, 2007)

oh no

hahahaha

grim

i will stick to my casein and whey


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

big_nige said:


> at the end of the day become gay.
> 
> after sex u could share a protein shake and play 2 player on fifa 2007
> 
> ...


Man, that was funny.


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## Deano! (Aug 6, 2004)

haha funny thread just got home and im broke up like

one year and 3 days been going out, ive done everything icoul shes 17 im 22 loland i sent her flowers, wroteher love letters and spoiled her sooo much, i couldnt have been a nicer guy to her

shes got exams coming up and we're in love (so i thought) and im giving hr as mch space as she keeps asking, well today shes decided she wants to just be mates..... OMG i thought i was sorted for life u know..... all girls i know just sleep round, dont stay faithful and i thought i'd found aperfect girl, but seems it wasnt meant to be, so now im lost  so gutted everything i have has something to do with her

i booked us a holiday for june 31st to barbados im going with my 21 year old sister shes gunna get me to go with loada girls etc lol

tomorrow start back on sunbeds and concentrating on my training as its been slacking since ive been with Annie :'(

sorry just wanted to let a bit out, thanks


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## ALake (Feb 13, 2007)

SCJP said:


> I thought the protein shake was part of sex?


That was pimpin

Respect!


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## Rowlf (Jan 10, 2007)

What a thread! Had to put my bit in...

I know the ladder theory is repulsive to some, and fully believed by others, but can I just check that everyone realises this is high level intellectual satire? The guy that wrote this is both intellectually and comically gifted. Doesn't make his misogynism right - although the more I read it, the more I begin to think that even this is satirical creativity. Admire it for what it is....

If anyone's looking for something perhaps a little more convincing on the male/female interaction front, try 'The Selfish Gene' by Richard Dawkins - it's accessible Darwinian evolutionary theory at a genetic level, expressed often through animal (imply human from this) procreational behaviour. It's more accessible than you might think, I promise...


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## Rowlf (Jan 10, 2007)

Just in case there's any doubt in his comedy/intellectual credentials...

http://www.intellectualwhores.com/beethoventheory.html


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## Deano! (Aug 6, 2004)

lmao she finished me for another guy, one year to be finished because shes a ****in slag wat a let down i loved her so much and still do, this has properly put me down for a while


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## SCJP (Sep 8, 2005)

At least you've found out what the lil' bike's really like now, rather than a year or more later.

It's going to hurt, but good riddance.


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## Gridlock1436114498 (Nov 11, 2004)

Deano! said:


> lmao she finished me for another guy, one year to be finished because shes a ****in slag wat a let down i loved her so much and still do, this has properly put me down for a while


I've been there dude,

Trust me I know how **** this can be. It's going to hurt for a while, but it get more and more bearable every day that passes you will think about it a little less.

Focus on the hurt to give you motivation to change the things about you and your life that you want to improve.

I could show you how to win her back (especially at that age), but believe me when I say you are better off without her.



> OMG i thought i was sorted for life u know


Don't think like this, I promise you women and female attention are an abundance, there are 3,250,000,000 women on this earth, and just about any one could be yours.

When you are ready I will show you how to. Regardless of what you look like or what your past success with women has been.

- look me up http://www.alphainteractions.com we are upgrading the site at the mo but it should be up soon

If you want to know how to stop the emotional pain you are feeling now - DEAD. PM me and we can go through some EFT stuff.


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## Deano! (Aug 6, 2004)

i had to work with her last night...... she was with me everyday until the last month she just started wanting space..... ive never felt like this for a girl before, and i couldnt get her back shes v.stubborn.... shes had everythi she could ever want from me, im a waiter in a resteraunt, i wrote love letters, senther flowers, spent over 1k on a necklace from christmas, she went away so i bought her some more jewelry just to show her im gunna miss her, now i look at it, it sounds like i was buying her but i just wanted her to be mine for the rest of my life, she was so perfect, las weekend i made videos she was saying how much she loved me etc. within a week im dumped and see her with another lad..... that quick.... i done everything she done nothing, she didnt give a **** it doesnt seem fair that im the one upset and hurt so much and shes fine ****ing other guys.....

nice guys definitly finish last


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Well bro, giving everything in the beginning was probably not the best approach.

I swear, some women wont leave you when you treat them with little respect.

I am not saying to do this but on the other hand putting them above you isnt the best approach.


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## danimal (Aug 14, 2012)

agree with hacksii, it seems the worse i treat women the more interest they have in me


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## Tinytom (Sep 16, 2005)

Deano! said:


> i had to work with her last night...... she was with me everyday until the last month she just started wanting space..... ive never felt like this for a girl before, and i couldnt get her back shes v.stubborn.... shes had everythi she could ever want from me, im a waiter in a resteraunt, i wrote love letters, senther flowers, spent over 1k on a necklace from christmas, she went away so i bought her some more jewelry just to show her im gunna miss her, now i look at it, it sounds like i was buying her but i just wanted her to be mine for the rest of my life, she was so perfect, las weekend i made videos she was saying how much she loved me etc. within a week im dumped and see her with another lad..... that quick.... i done everything she done nothing, she didnt give a **** it doesnt seem fair that im the one upset and hurt so much and shes fine ****ing other guys.....
> 
> nice guys definitly finish last


Fcuking hell mate

Dwelling on it doesnt make it better, I thought I had met a top bird and I got fcuked over royally a while back cos of it.

Just get your act together and do some man horring for a while.

Look at Gridlocks site and also www.alpha-male.co.uk for some ideas on getting yourself together.

So what if she's off with another guy, he'll get the same treatment eventually and you'll be long gone with a fitter , better girl cos you'll have learned from your mistakes. Learn form this mate or you'll just end up a doormat for the rest of your life shelling out your cash for little slags who dont appreciate it.

Nice guys dont finish last, doormats who have no self confidence and just roll over for any little skirt finish last. I'm a nice guy (just ask my missus  ) but I'm now more street savvy in recognising the signs of a silly tart. Only be nice to those that deserve it mate, the rest just smash their pasties in and walk off.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

This guy teaches us guys how to get laid and spend less money doing it:

http://www.blowmeuptom.com

There is even a listen live button so you can see how he rolls.

Very popular with the guys and hated by women, you will soon see why.

I listen to him almost every day, he is really hard, but he has a great point.

Almost everything you did is a no no in this guys book.

You could have had all that without spending anything.

As tom said, she is now that guys problem.

Here is some links: http://www.blowmeuptom.com/multimedia.tl

Check it out, you will just love this big time, he is way popular here in the States.


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## Deano! (Aug 6, 2004)

lol thanks guys, yesterday got sum propa tidy birds number in ASDA lmao ..... classy bird like (lol) so will dabble her saturday if i get outta work at all  thanks guys you been big help


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Hey bro, right now might be a perfect time to be alone and grow within yourself, rebounding right now might not be the best idea.

Trying to replace something probably might end up like the other.

I for sure would not get into any type of commitment and be up front and tell them that you dont want one.

Just some thoughts.


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## chrisj22 (Mar 22, 2006)

Deffo agree with the 'treat em' mean, keep em' keen' statement to a certain degree.

I've been with my girlfriend for 4 years & I've probably bought her not even 10 off the cuff presents in all that time (not including birthdays, xmas etc).

She loves it mate. She even say's that girls who keep getting presents every week will eventually take full advantage & blow guys out - happened to my best mate.

Keep your chin up bro & talk to Gridlock....you should see some of the thread's he's done.


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## Tinytom (Sep 16, 2005)

Yeah Gridlock is a Sexual Juggernaut. No pasty is safe when he starts his run.:axe:


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## Deano! (Aug 6, 2004)

thanks alot for all the advice guys


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## Guest (Apr 13, 2007)

Tatyana said:


> Have you ever thought of an older woman?


Cannot fault an older woman guys, they're brilliant. And know what they want, so no ****in' about...!!!!!

Other than that, I'd like to say that I was once a nice guy, but I got fed up with the whole "nice guys finishing last" scenario, so I changed, and I think life has improved greatly.

So to all you good guys out there, CHANGE!!!! Unless you're happy to be last in the picking order

WOO HOO


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## bigdaftjoe (Nov 21, 2005)

sp*nk buckets mate treat em like that and they love it dont ever ever tell them how you really feel in fact just keep moving its not worth the grief (oh joes been hurt in the past etc etc i love me and my boy no one else ever everything else is a means to an end) and never ever spend any money on them!!!


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## Deano! (Aug 6, 2004)

ok what exactly does "a means to an end" mean ?

i know its self explanitory i just dont understand thanks


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## Guest (Apr 14, 2007)

"Means to an end" = in no uncertain terms "something you needed, you got, the end, throw it away"

At least that the way i see it


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## darkstar (Jan 6, 2007)

This thread is awesome. Ive read ever word.

Peg is the one here with the most sense .

Listen up fellows, her words are true.


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## SCJP (Sep 8, 2005)

darkstar said:


> Ive read ever word.


Someone's bored...


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## Rowlf (Jan 10, 2007)

Right. Ready for my first flaming...

Since I started reading this post I've kept right up with it. I've got to say I disagree with most of you. I've had my fair share (more than) of women, and most of it was when I was treating them really badly - that part I agree with, and am ashamed of. Women often seem to respond to this as a challenge, almost. However, think about this....the women that respond to this type of challenge will most likely respond to other things in ways similar to each other, too. Like being unstable...untrusting....high maintenance...ringing any bells?

I decided over two years ago that I no longer wanted to wake up next to women I didn't want to cuddle. I decided to wait. And I have waited, and waited, but the right one's still not here yet. I've realised that I'm cool with it if she never turns up. Better that, than live with someone I don't want to hold when I sleep. While thinking like this, here's what I realised:

There is another type of woman. She's not interested in your muscles, or your face, or the way you look. She's interested in what you think, and what you feel. She's often not the one in a short skirt with loads of slap on her face. Christ, she's certainly not out at the nightclubs. She has a brain that works. You can have conversations without worrying that you'll offend her. And if you listen to her, she's actually got something interesting to say, that isn't about shopping, or who said what to who, etc.

Guys - they may not be the pin up girls we're told by the media we should find attractive. These girls are attractive because of the people they are, and that's what makes them sexy. Don't go for chicks because they've got hot bodies. Look at the ones sitting just out of the light of the dance floor.

I know these much better women exist, because two of my best friends found some and married them.

So, sorry to bang on, but don't treat women like dirt - those women are someone's little girl. If that was your little girl you'd kill the guys that treated them like 'sp*nkbuckets' - I know I will if anyone does it to my daughter when she's older. Instead, why not just avoid these losers, and take a second look at the ones you normally pass by - it's not about how much they can make your d*ck twitch, it's about how much they can make your heart twitch, and I think it's worth holding out for.

Sorry. Rant over.


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## darkstar (Jan 6, 2007)

SCJP said:


> Someone's bored...


No its an interesting thread.:beer1:


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## darkstar (Jan 6, 2007)

Rafe, i dont think you are going on ,its just tellin it like it is, or can be. Cool post.


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## Peg (Feb 9, 2006)

Ok from a woman's point of view.

A woman does NOT want to be treated like dirt.

I think the terminology we are using is emotional and does not really describe what is wanted.

This is the bottom line.

A woman wants a strong (in mind and heart) man who can lead the relationship.

Now, strength of heart implies the balls to face fears of inadequacy, the confidence in one's self to tell the woman, 'No', the courtesy of a gentleman to open the door for her in a sign of respect, the security in his masculinity to be tender and caring but still possess the power of authority and leadership.

The man I just described is the nice guy. He also has strong convictions and a will of iron steel, but is still approachable, courteous, and respectful.

You must win her respect. I think this is why men say treat women like dirt.

But in reality to treat her like dirt will not win the respect of a woman of worth for any length of time.

How do you win the respect of a man? Do you treat a man like dirt?

No flaming from me Rafe. It was a very good post to present the other side.

Thank you Darkstar for your comments about my post.

What must also be considered is the selfishness of both partners.

What bites in a sour relationship is the fact that the person A no longer wants to meet the selfish needs of person B.

Person B is thinking about his/her own needs and not the needs of person A who has left the relationship.

Person B feels humiliated for thinking of person A's wants because person A has "trampled" on person B's feelings.

The real honest truth is Person B's selfishness of pride is pricked because A either took advantage and/or showed no gratitude towards what was given and/or left. Person B feels uncompensated for his effort and time.

Notice that the focus is on person B and his/her own selfishness.

True love will not be pricked this way.

True love will be pricked in the sadness that more cannot be given because A has left.

A woman who truly loves a man unselfishly will not need material things from the man. She accepts them as a token of his love for her, but she does not demand these things of him. She will want to give back to the man more than he gives her. She will want to spend time with him, talk of things of interest to him, and help him be the best man he can possibly be. If your girlfriends do this, they are keepers.

To spend your money on a woman tells her you like her. Spend it sparingly, until you know she is a woman of worth who wants to give more of herself to you than just her body, and you are sure that she does not want to consume you in her own selfishness to any greater degree than you want her in your own selfishness.


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## Keyser Soze (Dec 12, 2005)

Rafe said:


> Right. Ready for my first flaming...


Hi mate, I won't flame you, you can obviously construct logical sentance, which is always a good start for being open to reason. I'll start by saying I disagree a lot, but I'll say why - and I'll support the points I agree with. I'm a masculist - which you've no doubt heard of - but without the shoulder chip most feminists carry.



> Since I started reading this post I've kept right up with it. I've got to say I disagree with most of you. I've had my fair share (more than) of women, and most of it was when I was treating them really badly - that part I agree with, and am ashamed of.


Agreed, fair enough. You don't have to mistreat women to get devotion, sex, eye-candy on your arm and all those other good things, but it's a lot easier than being a doormat for them.



> Women often seem to respond to this as a challenge, almost. However, think about this....the women that respond to this type of challenge will most likely respond to other things in ways similar to each other, too. Like being unstable...untrusting....high maintenance...ringing any bells?


Ask yourself this; are the flaky types really the only category of good-looking women you can pull? I've seen some stunners reading "Physics Today" etc. on the underground - just in the same way not all Investment Bankers are ugly sods (well, a lot ARE!!)



> I decided over two years ago that I no longer wanted to wake up next to women I didn't want to cuddle. I decided to wait. And I have waited, and waited, but the right one's still not here yet.


That's a long time. There are lots of women who are good to sleep with AND cuddle/dine out/converse with etc. You might be setting your standards high for the wrong reasons.



> I've realised that I'm cool with it if she never turns up.


I'd say it's better to be single than unhappily married. A misery shared is a misery doubled.



> There is another type of woman.


There are quite a few categories of women.



> She's not interested in your muscles, or your face, or the way you look. She's interested in what you think, and what you feel. She's often not the one in a short skirt with loads of slap on her face. Christ, she's certainly not out at the nightclubs. She has a brain that works. You can have conversations without worrying that you'll offend her. And if you listen to her, she's actually got something interesting to say, that isn't about shopping, or who said what to who, etc.


But...not all women who are intelligent AND beautiful sit at home on Saturday nights reading Emily Bronte', ya know. Just because a nightclub is a place you can switch off your brain and just go with the flow, doesn't mean they don't HAVE a brain when going in. I think you're narrowing your choice of life partner - if absolutely must have just one for life - into an unworkably sp**** demographic. That said, if you're finding that your choice of hunting game is spouting rubbish about shopping and gossip, it's time to hunt fresh fields.



> Guys - they may not be the pin up girls we're told by the media we should find attractive. These girls are attractive because of the people they are, and that's what makes them sexy. Don't go for chicks because they've got hot bodies. Look at the ones sitting just out of the light of the dance floor.


Chicks with hot bods are just that; they have something to offer, it probably won't be a rant about the Nasdaq going sideways, and I'm cool with getting just one thing from them; I don't expect much else.



> I know these much better women exist, because two of my best friends found some and married them.


I think you mean women of superior intellect. And I don't think it's a coincidence their husbands are your closest friends.



> So, sorry to bang on, but don't treat women like dirt - those women are someone's little girl.


Absolutely right. BUT...by the exact same token, you WERE OR ARE someone's beloved son. That should be a sacred concept to women, but by and large, it isn't. By all means romance them, marry them if you really must, but don't EVER let a woman trample on your heart. There is no need, actually.



> If that was your little girl you'd kill the guys that treated them like 'sp*nkbuckets' - I know I will if anyone does it to my daughter when she's older. Instead, why not just avoid these losers, and take a second look at the ones you normally pass by - it's not about how much they can make your d*ck twitch, it's about how much they can make your heart twitch, and I think it's worth holding out for.
> 
> Sorry. Rant over.


Heee hee!! 

God put women on Earth to make most of Man's anatomy twitch. That's what they do...and let's hope that never ends!!

Question for you mate....how old are you and your daughter????

Cheers,

Keyser.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Peg said:


> Ok from a woman's point of view.
> 
> A woman does NOT want to be treated like dirt.
> 
> ...


Impressive post.

You have a PM


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## SCJP (Sep 8, 2005)

darkstar said:


> No its an interesting thread.:beer1:


Sorry, wrong choice of words. Should have read:

'Someone's got a lot of time on his hands.'


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## Rowlf (Jan 10, 2007)

Good post, Keyser.

Okay, I take some of your points. In my (rather long) post, I do seem to be splitting the ladies into 'dopey hot bodies', and 'intelligent mousy physicists'. You're right - there are lots more types of woman - in fact, there are as many types of woman as there are women in the world. I stand corrected.

I think if one accepts that it is legitimate to only want some women for sex though, for example, it is also legitimate to claim that it's acceptable for women to only want men for one thing - for example, money, or power, or to have someone to assert themselves over. Or sex. I'm not convinced either is acceptable, as I'm not convinced that at a deep psychological level anyone is ever after only 'one' thing.

I haven't yet worked out how to quote on the forum, sorry. When you say there are plenty of women who are good to sleep with and dine out/cuddle/etc, I think I may have expressed myself wrongly. I was trying to convey by 'cuddling' the physical expression of that feeling where you just cant get close enough to someone you love, rather than just a cuddle to go to sleep with.

In answer to your question, I'm 33 and my daughter is nearly 15. Scary, I know. She lives with me at the moment, but looks like she's just about to go back and live with her mum again. I'll tell you something else that's interesting, though - I suffer a bit from 'single mother syndrome'. That's when people don't really want to date you because you're a single parent. It's the most amazing thing - I've been talking to women and when I mention that I'm a single dad, I've seen the light in their eyes (you know the one? The one that tells you they're interested?) literally turn off. I don't even bother to pursue - I know what kind of partner I want, and what kind I don't.

Good luck with the masculinist thing, by the way - someone needs to give the rabid end of the feminist spectrum a run for their money. I find militant feminism rather distasteful - although I find militant anything rather distasteful, and so always enjoy someone brave challenging it.


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## SCJP (Sep 8, 2005)

Rafe said:


> That's when people don't really want to date you because you're a single parent. It's the most amazing thing - I've been talking to women and when I mention that I'm a single dad, I've seen the light in their eyes (you know the one? The one that tells you they're interested?) literally turn off.


Spot on with that. One good way to sort the wheat from the chaff (sp?). I'd rather keep these people away from my lil' girl.

Another side to this is the women that might be interested, but who steer clear as they believe that you're just taking the Tot out for the day while wifey gets her nails done/does the chores/get's p!ssed/whatever.


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## Peg (Feb 9, 2006)

Rafe, Do you think when you find the woman who makes your heart twitch, she will make the dick twitch stronger than if she was just a dick twitcher? 

How does a woman make a man's heart twitch?


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## Deano! (Aug 6, 2004)

this topic has become really useful

i still need some help though, i dont want to just use girls, ive never been like that, i want somebody i can wake up with and hug all morning and they want to spend there spare time with me all the time

****** kept asking for space though, shes got big exams coming p and needs to revise and for the year we where together she spent ALL her time with m, so then sh wanted to spend time with her family also, she claims she just loves me as a mate now, but she still cris and she was thinking about getting back with me, but its not happened yet she wants me to leave her to it and she'll give me an answer eventualy.

But shes stubborn and if i leave her to it i know i wont get an answer, i took her the gym with me again yesterday and kissed her, shes stunning, makes me smile so much, my heart beats so hard when i see her if i havent seen her for a few days, she never did love me this much, but she did love me, now does that mean i should let her go or still try? i cant go with a girl that isnt attractive, i need to be physicly attracted to get with them, but the majority these days sleep around etc. is it so much to ask for a decent girl that isnt a bit of a [email protected] (dont mean to stereo type, just the majority)

I want **** for the rest of my life she is perfect looking, she could have done things for me more but i learnt to live with it, i miss her so much, i wake up so early every morning missing her, and thinking that shes out and other guys will see her the way ive seen her for the last year if she sleeps with them or anything is just disgusting me 

i know im to soft but i dont mind being like this, i just want **** by my side  ive seen other goodlookers but annie was naturaly stunning....


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## Deano! (Aug 6, 2004)

Peg said:


> Rafe, Do you think when you find the woman who makes your heart twitch, she will make the dick twitch stronger than if she was just a dick twitcher?
> 
> How does a woman make a man's heart twitch?


For me i knw i loved ***** when i noticed her doing things for me that i didnt ask for and she went out of her way to do it, like im at a mates hungry she made a sandwich and brought it around? all these little things add up, and when they put you first like that you know they arent just with you to use you, they genuinly like/love you

saorry i know it wasnt a question for me i just wanted to answer


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## Tinytom (Sep 16, 2005)

Names have to be kept out of this thread please.

Good posts by Peg I thought.

Deano your posts signify that you think this girl is better than you and you are lucky to have/had her. You will never get her back as long as you think that or can portray to here that you are an equal.

Although I dont see the reason to dwell on something that has ended so badly. Relationships end for a reason mate. Yes it hurts but move on. If you pulled one fit bird you'll pull another one.


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## Deano! (Aug 6, 2004)

but nobody knows who i mean ??

np though


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## SCJP (Sep 8, 2005)

Deano! said:


> shes stunning, makes me smile so much, my heart beats so hard when i see her if i havent seen her for a few days


Get this out of your fcuking head. You will not get the relationship you want from her. Even if she choses to get back with you now, it'll all end in tears later & you'll feel much, much, worse.

Have a good cry to your Mum or something (I'm not being sarcastic here), but move on or you'll just end up a mess.

In time you'll feel a lot better, but you need to accept that it's over first.

Deal with it & don't let her get the better of you.


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## Peg (Feb 9, 2006)

Thanks TT for your kind words about my posts.

Your post actually brought to mind that a man must earn a woman's respect when you said don't be a door mat to a woman.

No man respects a wimpy man.

No woman respects a wimpy man, either.



> ****** kept asking for space though, shes got big exams coming p and needs to revise and for the year we where together she spent ALL her time with m, so then sh wanted to spend time with her family also, she claims she just loves me as a mate now, but she still cris and she was thinking about getting back with me, but its not happened yet she wants me to leave her to it and she'll give me an answer eventualy.


It may be that you are making her feel like you are too needy and asking too much of her too soon and so she wants that space.

True love will give each other space and help each other accomplish each other's dreams not inhibit them.

A wise man told me once that you cannot make a person love you.

What you are saying is that you are afraid to let go because you are afraid she will find someone else. It is a fear you must face with a strong heart.

Is your love a selfish love? Are you wanting her more for your own needs?

Is your love true love? Are you wanting her higher good more than your selfish needs?

You have to honestly ask yourself these questions and act accordingly.

The best thing to do is talk, talk, talk, with her and give her the space she needs to accomplish what she wants in her life as well.

If you know in your heart of hearts, she does not love you as you love her, then let her go. Be honest with yourself. If you know in your heart of hearts she does love you, fight for her love but don't demand it. Give her the time she needs to know if she loves you or not.


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## grunjhed (Apr 7, 2007)

I have come into this very late but can totally agree with Peg. If you are petrified of letting her go because you may lose her then she was never yours to begin with. When you have found true love then you will understand that it is better to lose your love knowing that she is in a happier place than to keep her by your side knowing that she isnt fullfilling her dreams and happiness.

It is better to let go of what you cherish to see it blosom than to hold onto something and watch it die. If it is true love then she will come around and will come running back to your arms. As the age old saying goes, set your loved one free and if they come back it was meant to be.

I never truely understood these words until the day I met my wife... I came across a situation where I was worried that I was holding her back, so I let her go. She came running back to me so fast we both realised it was true.

Thats my 5 cents worth.


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## Rowlf (Jan 10, 2007)

Peg - I think the sexual thing is so much different when love is involved. So much so that I no longer want anything but. Which leads me to:

Deano - One of the most important elements of life is pain. Through painful experience, as well as pleasurable experience, we learn. Life often does not give us the things we believe we need to make going on existing worthwhile. Yet we go on existing. Loss is natural.

The measure of a man is not how many successes he has under his belt, how fast his car, how big his house, how good his relationship. I believe the true measure of a man is how well he stands up after disappointment without losing sight of his own worth, and how much of his own integrity he keeps when his world is falling apart.

Whatever you do, don't lose sight of your own worth. Be kind, don't judge her, don't judge yourself - life is life, and the only thing one can guarantee is that wherever you end up, it won't be where you though you were going when you started.

Oh, and keep your integrity. It's the only thing any of us can truly say they own, and it can never be bought. Yet people give it away for nothing all the time.


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## Keyser Soze (Dec 12, 2005)

Rafe said:


> Good post, Keyser.
> 
> Okay, I take some of your points. In my (rather long) post, I do seem to be splitting the ladies into 'dopey hot bodies', and 'intelligent mousy physicists'. You're right - there are lots more types of woman - in fact, there are as many types of woman as there are women in the world. I stand corrected.


Well, don't go to the other extreme and be afraid to compartmentalise, I never did like that "There are as many different types of X as there are members of X" approach, because it's something that we're conditioned to follow, but...all professional recruiters, criminal psychiatriasts, and most tellingly of all, marketing analysts divide people into socio-economic segments for more precise communications - it's what they do as professionals. It's just a shame we "common" folk aren't so discerning.

For the sake of practicality, I divide womankind into several categories, each of which with a distinct set of attributes that encompass 85-90% of them, the rest are admixtures of one sort or another.



> I think if one accepts that it is legitimate to only want some women for sex though, for example, it is also legitimate to claim that it's acceptable for women to only want men for one thing - for example, money, or power, or to have someone to assert themselves over. Or sex. I'm not convinced either is acceptable, as I'm not convinced that at a deep psychological level anyone is ever after only 'one' thing.


Of course nobody is. I'll bed a young hot babe after a club; it doesn't have to go any further, if I like her enough I'll agree to meet her for a drink or something to eat or another club. If I don't, I won't. It's that simple. I'm not the world's most handsome dude (yet), I accept there's an element of, "He could pay for a few nights out" there. That's cool too; the ones who find me interesting convo or a great laugh inevitably bring their purses next time. I soon find out who's who before blowing too much cash. Neither of us is after ONLY "one thing", but we both want that "one thing".



> I haven't yet worked out how to quote on the forum, sorry.


Highlight the text you want to quote, then above the text window, there's a long row of icons starting with a B at the left. Click the 3rd icon from the right, it looks like a tiny yellow piece of paper with black text, that'll quote for you (by wrapping quote tags around the selected text)



> When you say there are plenty of women who are good to sleep with and dine out/cuddle/etc, I think I may have expressed myself wrongly. I was trying to convey by 'cuddling' the physical expression of that feeling where you just cant get close enough to someone you love, rather than just a cuddle to go to sleep with.


If I'm reading you right, mate, I think you're after the ultimate intimacy you can have with a woman, that bond that goes so deep you both lose your individual selves in the couple. You'll do anything for each other, and I do mean ANYTHING, she's your best mate, she's your confessional priest, she laughs hysterically at your jokes, she cheers you up when your upset, she gives you a shoulder to cry on, she get completely rat-arzed with you when you're celebrating your new contract, you spend weekends planning what you'll both be doing in 10 years, and you do exactly the same for her. In short, you've merged into a single person, just split over two brains and two bodies.

The bad news - it's rare to find a woman who understands or has a template for what that kind of relationship is. Most haven't seen it in real life or fiction

The good news - YOU can learn it, and then you can teach it to her. And the right girl, even though she hasn't ever lived or seen what you're teaching her, will thank you for it both for all of the rest of her life, and with it.



> In answer to your question, I'm 33 and my daughter is nearly 15. Scary, I know.


Nope, you were a teenage dad. Seen 'em before.



> She lives with me at the moment, but looks like she's just about to go back and live with her mum again. I'll tell you something else that's interesting, though - I suffer a bit from 'single mother syndrome'. That's when people don't really want to date you because you're a single parent. It's the most amazing thing - I've been talking to women and when I mention that I'm a single dad, I've seen the light in their eyes (you know the one? The one that tells you they're interested?) literally turn off. I don't even bother to pursue - I know what kind of partner I want, and what kind I don't.


Holllllllllld on there. Tell them your daughters age in the same sentance that you inform them of her existance. "I have a daughter from a previous marriage" is going to put off 80% of women, the intelligent ones included, in the same vein that I'd be deterred by a single mother - I don't want baggage.

BUT...next time, tell them, "I have one child, a girl of 15". If she liked you up to that point, she'll immediately think, "Hmmm, ok, that'll make life interesting but not too difficult". See the difference???



> Good luck with the masculinist thing, by the way - someone needs to give the rabid end of the feminist spectrum a run for their money. I find militant feminism rather distasteful - although I find militant anything rather distasteful, and so always enjoy someone brave challenging it.


Welllllllllll............I let the extremist feminists, and their less fanatical sisters wallow in their ignorance. I don't throw peals before swine of either sex in general, and in particular I also don't argue with women of any leaning at all, in keeping with the advice our fathers gave us, or in some cases should have given us. What our fathers certainly never told us was the WHY; that got lost in the mists of time down the generations. But masculism is not about fighting feminism, and it's even less about being anti-women; it's about being PRO-man.

Being a masculist is about helping other men get the best of their relationships with women; this means appreciating women for what they are, not what the media tries to force-feed us. Being a masculist also involves helping guys understand that the differences in genders that manifest in society (higher wages for men, higher driving speeds etc) are inherent in human nature. For example, society can only go so far to legislate "equality", and, just as you can bring a horse to water but not make him drink, nor can you force a woman to study Radiological Life Sciences - and extremely well paid pursuit - when her mind simply finds it too abstract, decides to continue studying Sociology instead, and then finds herself competing with thousands of her sisters who all opted for the softer, talkier-feelier sciences in University.

Best of all, there are many women masculists who openly recognise and embrace the males natural position in society. These are often women who are lucky enough to have lived happily under the strong leadership of men with determination and wisdom - fathers, employers, bigger brothers, husbands, heck it can just be the guy in the uniform who pulled them out of a burning building.

There are also a few who are just tired of their men being pussified and long for them to show some balls, with other men, with other women, and yes, with themselves too. As Peg said with such laser-guided precision, "No woman wants a wimp". Women are getting tired of it. And you don't need to be under 5-5" or under 110Ibs to be a wimp.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Man, alot of good posts here.

When my wife left me I was a mess, hell I was 25 years old and crying like a baby at work.

Till one guy told me that my wife (ex) was not worth my dignity.

Damn, that really opened my eyes, those words struck deep inside me and told me something about being a man.

As Rafe said about integrity, both are very similar, dignity and integrity go hand in hand.

Bro, honestly I love my daughters mother, but if she feels that she could be happier some where else then I would accept her happiness with someone else, this is fair to both parties.

For her it is fair for her happiness and my daughters happiness.

To me it is fair to me as if I dont make her happy then I am missing the happiness from some one else.

You cant make someone be with you and even if you could, this is not her choice and in the end it wont make you happy either, that whole thing would be a compromise.


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## Keyser Soze (Dec 12, 2005)

hackskii said:


> Man, alot of good posts here.
> 
> When my wife left me I was a mess, hell I was 25 years old and crying like a baby at work.


All right Hacks!! Just a point of chronology, I thought you were freshly turned 40 when she upped and left?? Or is this a previous wife??



> Till one guy told me that my wife (ex) was not worth my dignity.
> 
> Damn, that really opened my eyes, those words struck deep inside me and told me something about being a man.


I bet it did. The media doesn't talk much about male dignity, so your pal did. He simply reminded you of something that we just don't hear much about any more. Good, ol'-fashioned pride in being a MAN. In the 50's, that would have been a much used phrase on the radio - now, it'd be a slur.



> You cant make someone be with you and even if you could, this is not her choice and in the end it wont make you happy either, that whole thing would be a compromise.


Well, I know how you mean that, but I don't like that thinking much either, only because it too often then gets warped into an excuse not to try hard, and try smart. Just as women hunt guys in packs (safety in numbers) and once they id a guy they want, they'll concert meticulously well-discussed attacks, and afterwards get together with their girlfriends to go over how the gameplan is panning out, ie whether he likes you, whether he's the committing type etc, so too can you mount a one-man campaign that gives a woman dozens of reasons to go out with you, and no significant reason not to.

Keyser.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Keyser Soze said:


> All right Hacks!! Just a point of chronology, I thought you were freshly turned 40 when she upped and left?? Or is this a previous wife??


Last one was my Grilfriend with my Daughter, that was 5 years ago.

But now, there is talk of her comming back.

Sadly she has about 10 thousand dollars in debt, I told her 10 grand is nothing and if there is something else that I sould not be kept in the dark about it.

So far everything is going better now than ever actually.

My daughter is crying for me now, not just when I leave there but during the week.

In the long run it will be cheaper and easier on both of us, I hope we grow together instead of apart.

We both can be a real piece of work at times.


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## Rowlf (Jan 10, 2007)

> If I'm reading you right, mate, I think you're after the ultimate intimacy you can have with a woman, that bond that goes so deep you both lose your individual selves in the couple. You'll do anything for each other, and I do mean ANYTHING, she's your best mate, she's your confessional priest, she laughs hysterically at your jokes, she cheers you up when your upset, she gives you a shoulder to cry on, she get completely rat-arzed with you when you're celebrating your new contract, you spend weekends planning what you'll both be doing in 10 years, and you do exactly the same for her. In short, you've merged into a single person, just split over two brains and two bodies.
> 
> The bad news - it's rare to find a woman who understands or has a template for what that kind of relationship is. Most haven't seen it in real life or fiction
> 
> The good news - YOU can learn it, and then you can teach it to her. And the right girl, even though she hasn't ever lived or seen what you're teaching her, will thank you for it both for all of the rest of her life, and with it.


Absolutely! That is the best I have ever heard it expressed. That's exactly what I want, and I'll settle for nothing less. If I have to teach it I will, and I'm also prepared to learn anything in the same vein that she's prepared to teach me.



> For the sake of practicality, I divide womankind into several categories, each of which with a distinct set of attributes that encompass 85-90% of them, the rest are admixtures of one sort or another.


I agree that for the sake of broader brushstrokes - such as advertising, and insurance, and things of that ilk, this kind of division is useful. So too, I can accept it as a shorthand for debating the various attributes of a woman, or a car, or an animal, or any larger group within which discussion of smaller divisions is wanted. However, I think this model begins to break down when one begins to talk about specific women, or animals, or cars (witness the thread at the moment about the renault that's costing about a million quid to fix at the ford dealership under warranty). While one could cite this renault being an example that renaults are unreliable and/or expensive to keep on the road, one could find just as many reports of their cheapness and reliability. Thus, there's a danger of skewing when one doesn't take a big enough sample - though I'm not a statistician, so I couldn't comment on what sample of women would be needed for a conclusive study of this nature - possibly more than one man could experience in his short lifetime.

I think what I'm getting at here is that compartmentalisation of any 'type' is useful only at a macrocosmic level. When looked at microcosmically, any particular label we choose to apply to a woman (or a car, or an animal) is, to all intents and purposes, as likely as unlikely to apply to the particular one on which we are commenting.

I do agree with the idea of 'tendencies' though. People have tendencies, and these can sometimes be deduced by their external behaviours. A good example might be the partner who, immediately after you become an 'item', wants to hold hands literally all the time (I choose an example I hope most can relate to). This would, to my mind, more likely than anything else illustrate a tendency towards insecurity, at least with a partner. If one can read these tendencies, a lot of future upset for all can be avoided.

I think the most important point there is 'the behaviour is not the person'. Behaviour is mostly learnt, which means that, with most people, new behaviours can be learnt in place of the old ones, given a patient teacher and a willingness to learn.

Here's to everyone who wants to finding someone to learn with.:beer1:


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## Peg (Feb 9, 2006)

> I do agree with the idea of 'tendencies' though. People have tendencies, and these can sometimes be deduced by their external behaviours. A good example might be the partner who, immediately after you become an 'item', wants to hold hands literally all the time (I choose an example I hope most can relate to). This would, to my mind, more likely than anything else *illustrate a tendency towards insecurity,* at least with a partner. If one can read these tendencies, a lot of future upset for all can be avoided.


Tendancies can also be construed incorrectly, Rafe. I will agree with you about reading the tendencies, but make sure you both are seeing eye to eye on the tendencies being exhibited.

It may be that the holding of hands, is just an outpouring of love through touch and the woman is not insecure at all but more secure because she sees that kind of touch a pleasure of the love shared and so embraces it.

It really is a matter of perspective and seeing through the eyes of the other person. Never box yourself into your own perceived tendencies without scruntinizing them and asking questions about them and seeing them from the other person's eyes.

What may be thought to be needy and clingy may in fact be an overwhelming desire to love you and seek your higher good just expressed in a way that isn't immediately recognized as such because of the conditioning by what society has heretofore taught through media, hearsay, experience, or family. Granted, it may also be that needy clingy of insecurity. Just don't lose a keeper because you thought the tendencies incorrectly.


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## Rowlf (Jan 10, 2007)

> It may be that the holding of hands, is just an outpouring of love through touch and the woman is not insecure at all but more secure because she sees that kind of touch a pleasure of the love shared and so embraces it.


I understand what you're saying here, but that's why I specifically said



> the partner who, *immediately after* you become an 'item', wants to hold hands literally all the time


I am totally with holding hands 24/7 with the woman I love. I just don't think that kind of love can happen instantaneously. Thus, when the behaviour is exhibited when the time has not elapsed for that behaviour to have a solid root in a sound relationship development, it would worry me greatly.


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## Rowlf (Jan 10, 2007)

Demetrius:

Do I entice you? Do I speak you fair?

Or rather do I not in plainest truth

Tell you I do not nor I cannot love you?

Helena:

And even for that do I love you the more.

I am your spaniel, and, Demetrius,

The more you beat me I will fawn on you.

Use me but as your spaniel: spurn me, strike me,

Neglect me, lose me; only give me leave,

Unworthy as I am, to follow you.

What worser place can I beg in your love -

And yet a place of high respect with me -

Than to be usèd as you use your dog?

A Midsummer Night's Dream

Act II Scene I

Interesting, no? In a way, this thread's been running for hundreds of years, then, at least. This is especially interesting as when Shakespeare was writing, women were not allowed on the stage. Instead, all the womens parts were played by young men and boys, and often in Sheakespeare's work we can see glimmers and references to the fact that what is said by the women about being women takes on a deeper meaning as we know them to have been played by men. This deeper meaning is often a comment by the men of the day (i.e. Shakespeare) about their society's view of women generally. Rereading the above section with Helena being played by a man reveals at least some of this.


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## Peg (Feb 9, 2006)

I do hear what you are saying, Rafe. I'm just commenting objectively for the sake of discoverery in discussion about how men and women will see things, as we all know, from a different point of view.



Maybe the holding of hands is not insecurity then, maybe the woman is walking with a prized trophey? 

I will disagree with you about loving instantaneously. It can and does happen for a woman. It is built into a woman's design to love completely and totally which also can be construed by a man as being insecure, clingy, and needy. Time with her would determine if it was true love or that clingy neediness.

Experience with men who take advantage of the love condition a woman out of loving instantaneoulsy, but they do love this way.

I think you are seeing love from the point of view which is to first win the man's respect (after he calms his lust) and then he will love the woman.

Women first love and then the man must win a woman's respect.


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## Peg (Feb 9, 2006)

Gotta love Shakespeare!

Is it not the loyalty of a dog that men respect?

Helena is insigtful for knowing a man so well.

Her love is so deep that she would subjegate her "self" to be this loyal to the man.

Why is it that men abuse this loyalty of women or at least do not fully appreciate it the same way they appreciate the loyalty of a man?

Dogs do turn on their master, don't they? Why?

I like the Song of Solomon, personally.


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## Rowlf (Jan 10, 2007)

I'm not sure that men 'respect' the loyalty of the dog, rather dogs and men both have a tendency towards a natural 'pack' pecking order, so both feel comfortable with a servant/master relationship - not that the man would ever consider the dog in any way 'equal' to him, so I suppose it depends on how we define the term 'respect' in this particular instance.

Contrast the nature of the cat, so oft beloved by women - it does what it does, takes what it wants and gives what it wants when it wants.

I'm sure there's something quite profound in that somewhere, but I think I need to think about it for a while... answers on a postcard, please!

Flexing my brain now...:lift:


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## darkstar (Jan 6, 2007)

I said it befor listen up to PEG. You'll win the heart of ever lass.Not that you should have that goal.

Youll treat women they way only they know they want to be treated.

INSIGHT my bratha.

Thanx Peg and all who take the time to expound.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

I talk to her all the time, she helps me with my fears.

She is a very sensible lady.


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## Gridlock1436114498 (Nov 11, 2004)

darkstar said:


> Youll treat women they way only they know they want to be treated.
> 
> INSIGHT my bratha.
> 
> .


Peg is an amazing women who has given me deep insight on a range of things from relationships to religion.

However I don't think human beings actually know or realise what they really desire or what will make them happy - otherwise we would all be on cloud9 all day.

What the average woman thinks she wants in a man and what she is actually attracted to are often polar opposites.

I teach this for a living - trust me.


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## darkstar (Jan 6, 2007)

"What the average woman thinks she wants in a man and what she is actually attracted to are often polar opposites."

Here in lies the problem of the non -self actualized woman/man.

Basically Everybodys problem to some degree.


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## darkstar (Jan 6, 2007)

One more thing , we will never be on cloud 9 all the time. We are just to humane for that. IMO.


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## Peg (Feb 9, 2006)

Wow, guys.

Thank you for your compliments.

Actually, Gridlock, if these things that I speak are acted upon in a relationship, it is possible to be on cloud 9 24/7.

The challenge lies within the selfish/selflessness duality. It will get blurred and then time must be taken to sort it out and clarify. When each learn to stop and ask the other, "What may I do for you, today." It takes the focus off of ourselves and puts it on to the other.

It is easy to think of the other person when the relationship begins. After all we are also being selfish in this because the other person is meeting our own selfish need.

The key to cloud 9 is to always stay thinking of the other person first.

I will say that this is easier for the woman than the man, at least it use to be, because her design is to love which is a natural giving of oneself.

When both become selfish then there is no longer giving and only taking and this is when a relationship has conflict and becomes rocky.

Women will always be attracted to strength. There are many different expressions of strength. Strong body, strong mind, strong convictions, strong integrity, strong heart, strong self confidence, etc.. So, Gridlock, what may seem like a polar difference may not be so different when scrutinized from a different perspective.

Simply put, humanity is not on cloud 9 usually because some perceived self need or want is not being met.

Life is not stagnate. A woman can be attracted to one or several strengths to begin with and then as the relationship grows other strengths may become more attractive to her and take on more significance than the things that first attracted her.

It is the journey of relationships to discover the subtle selfishness we all have and learn how to recognize its potential distructive power in a relationship.

When both partners are looking out for each other's back then self will be safe, secure, satisfied, and on cloud 9. True love will seek the higher good of the other first and battle the selfishness to take before permission is given to take.

Such is always easier said than done in the battlefield of relationships.


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## Rowlf (Jan 10, 2007)

I think part of the problem, too, is the way we assume relationships ought to be, rather than the way they are in our own experience - for example our experience of relationships in films, telly, or in books. While I accept that this has always been so (the vistorians were masters of this kind of literature) and humans seek out stories with 'happy endings', too often things are portrayed without the full nature of the hardships that accompany such journeys.

A silly example: You never see anyone on the Starship Enterprise go for a poo, do you? At some point, one supposes that Kirk must have walked into the loo as Dr McCoy was coming out after he had done a big stinker. Pehaps McCoy always does big stinkers, and it's an ongoing niggling friction between him and the rest of the crew.

We never see these little niggles, but the truth is that when relationships hit rocky times, the things like this that once we might have laughed about become a thorn in our side. How much better would it be if, at least a little more frequently, we saw the wider range of human relationships expressed in everyday terms (not necessarily pooing, though...)?

I'm not against fantasy in storytelling, you understand. It's just as important as any other way of depicting relationships. I'd just like to see a fuller range of experience shown for us to compare ourselves to.


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## Gridlock1436114498 (Nov 11, 2004)

Peg said:


> Wow, guys.
> 
> Thank you for your compliments.
> 
> ...


Amazing and spot on.

My spiritual beliefs focus around everthing that this post alludes to. I follow a life philosophy laid out by one of my friends, that basically strips hinduism and Buddism down to the core, the key to life and happiness I believe:

1) The elimination of desire, the ability to find contentment in what you have.

2) The service of others before yourself "What may I do for you today"

3) which leads on from 2 - Karma.

That is it, simple/


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## Keyser Soze (Dec 12, 2005)

Rafe said:


> A silly example: You never see anyone on the Starship Enterprise go for a poo, do you? At some point, one supposes that Kirk must have walked into the loo as Dr McCoy was coming out after he had done a big stinker. Pehaps McCoy always does big stinkers, and it's an ongoing niggling friction between him and the rest of the crew.


There are two problems with that;

1) They probably use transporter technology instead of old-fashioned excretion, thus saving cubicle space and waste disposal facilities, I imagine it all gets beamed into the ether;

2) McCoy is a Doctor - he'd be the first to get his gut flora checked out at the first whiff of trouble (pun very intentional).

But I take your point. 

Keyser


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## Rowlf (Jan 10, 2007)

LOL @ Keyser


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## Peg (Feb 9, 2006)

> We never see these little niggles, but the truth is that when relationships hit rocky times, the things like this that once we might have laughed about become a thorn in our side. How much better would it be if, at least a little more frequently, we saw the wider range of human relationships expressed in everyday terms (not necessarily pooing, though...)?


Rafe I agree with you whole heartedly about the little niggling things.

Most movies always end right when the marriage begins.



> A silly example: You never see anyone on the Starship Enterprise go for a poo, do you? At some point, one supposes that Kirk must have walked into the loo as Dr McCoy was coming out after he had done a big stinker. Pehaps McCoy always does big stinkers, and it's an ongoing niggling friction between him and the rest of the crew.


That example just cracked me up!!! Thanks. It was a nice way to end my work day.

Does it not become niggling because selfishness demands it so?

It is at these niggling times when love and thought for other should take precedence with the discipline of the mind and reason. Who said love was an emotion? I say that true love is displayed with a disciplined mind that chooses to not let the emotional demands of selfishness control. Sometimes all that is needed is just good manners and common courtesy.


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## bigdaftjoe (Nov 21, 2005)

peg as always love to you and yours, and as a hedonist i can only say do what makes you happy if you can make other people happy along the way cool, if you cant so be it. Life revolves around one thing you and yours, who you impregnate along the way to get yours dont really matter. if you can love that person and want to spend the rest of your life with them great if you dont or cant thats also cool, i love me more than anything but even i get sick of my company. the point im trying (badly) to make is that imo there is nothing more than what you currently have so squeeze every drop from every day dont miss a single opportunity and take fcuking chances


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## Peg (Feb 9, 2006)

Hey, bigdaftjoe. I wholeheartedly concur. I like to say take life by the balls and give it a good shake.

Gridlock:

Desire as the want of something can be bad or good depending on its context and its intensity.

I do believe being content in what we have is part of happiness, but I also know that contentment can sometimes lead to complacency and stagnation and this too can lead to rocky times in a relationship.

I see desire as if it was a road trip. I will enjoy and be content in each leg of the trip as I travel it, but I will also look forward to the next leg in the trip.


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## Rowlf (Jan 10, 2007)

> It is at these niggling times when love and thought for other should take precedence with the discipline of the mind and reason. Who said love was an emotion? I say that true love is displayed with a disciplined mind that chooses to not let the emotional demands of selfishness control. Sometimes all that is needed is just good manners and common courtesy.


Peg, are you familiar with the concept of 'freedom through discipline'? I'm a big fan of it on a personal level. Zen in the Art of Archery by Eugen Herrigel is a fantastic example to explain what I am far less able to. It will take you no more than a couple of hours to read, if anyone fancies it. I reccommend it wholeheartedly.



> as a hedonist i can only say do what makes you happy if you can make other people happy along the way cool, if you cant so be it...there is nothing more than what you currently have so squeeze every drop from every day dont miss a single opportunity and take fcuking chances


Nothing to do with being a hedonist IMO. Just a sensible viewpoint borne out of a knowledge of the temporary nature of our lives. I wholeheartedly agree, mate. The nice thing is when something you do can make you and someone else happy at the same time. They're the biggest payoffs, I think.

Thank you all very much. You made me think lots, and I like that.:love:


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## Keyser Soze (Dec 12, 2005)

Rafe said:


> Peg, are you familiar with the concept of 'freedom through discipline'? I'm a big fan of it on a personal level. Zen in the Art of Archery by Eugen Herrigel is a fantastic example to explain what I am far less able to. It will take you no more than a couple of hours to read, if anyone fancies it. I reccommend it wholeheartedly.


That actually sounds a lot like my own life philosophy; but before I get the book, or see the movie, or even buy the T-shirt, is it anything to do with the idea that, in order to achieve the freedom to pursue the pleasures you want, you need the discipline to do the work needed to get up to speed for the pursuit?



> Nothing to do with being a hedonist IMO.


Nothing wrong either with being a hedonist - me and Joe like our tipple, he'll tell ya...me more than him!! 



> Thank you all very much. You made me think lots, and I like that.




You're welcome, and I think I speak for most of us established members here; we feel likewise, mate. 

Keyser.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Wow, very interesting the depth here.

I liked the read.


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## Rowlf (Jan 10, 2007)

> That actually sounds a lot like my own life philosophy; but before I get the book, or see the movie, or even buy the T-shirt, is it anything to do with the idea that, in order to achieve the freedom to pursue the pleasures you want, you need the discipline to do the work needed to get up to speed for the pursuit?


Goes further than that. In the 1930's Herrigel was living in Japan and wanted to learn about Zen. The only way to learn Zen is through one of the traditional disciplines (swordcraft, archery, calligraphy and flower arranging), as it can't be explained properly in any other way. Eventually he found a master who agreed to teach him Zen Archery. The book is his struggle with understanding it. Any lessons to be gained are simply lessons you draw yourself - the book does not seek to instruct. That's one of the reasons it's so easy to learn from, I think.

I'd love to know what your thoughts are on it.


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## Peg (Feb 9, 2006)

Zen is a state of mind, I think. It is like water flowing, it is the learning of becoming one with all energy and force of life to see outside of yourself from another point of view.

You are right, you cannot instruct in it other than to teach the fullness of an art's discipline.

You learn of the freedom of discipline in the journey through discovery of seeking the excellence of the art no matter what it is that you pursue. The lessons you draw yourself will tend to be timeless lessons of revelation about life and humanity.

There are many levels of focused perseverence and endurance within the discipline choosen and each level will have with it a freedom learnt and a bondage revealed. It takes a lifetime to discover the full excellence of any disciplined art and the letting go of the bondages.

Christianity also teaches this freedom, but the discipline practiced is perhaps more difficult to comprehend as it encompasses all things and deals specifically with the discipline of self expressed in agape love.

KS, there can also be a freedom in the work and a bondage in the pleasure.


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