# Insulin course and diet



## methos (Dec 23, 2008)

Hi Guys,

after some reading through the forums and mainly some great help from ausbuilt I've started my first course of insulin. Was just looking for some feedback on my diet during this time:

7:30 10iu Slin

7:45 Breakfast Shake 100g Oats, 40g Whey, 1 Banana, 100g dextrose/glucose, 200ml milk, 200ml water

8:45 PreWO Shake 50g Whey Protein 50g Glucose/Dextrose

9:00-10:30 Train

11:00 PWO shake 50g Whey Protein (1 wholeseed bagel with cottage cheese/quark)

13:15 10iu Slin

13:30 125g wholegrain rice, 250g Fish/Chicken (100g dextrose/glucose)

16:00 Shake 50g Whey Protein (1 wholeseed bagel with cottage cheese/quark)

18:15 10iu Slin

18:30 125g wholegrain rice, 250g Fish/Chicken (100g dextrose/glucose)

21:30-22:00 1 wholeseed bagel with cottage cheese/quark, shake 50g whey protein.

wasn't sure whether I'd need the bagel and quark with the shakes hence the red text, oh yes I've learnt how to format posts  same with the dextrose shakes with the meals. Would they be needed due to my meal carbs being complex?

Cheers!

M


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

methos said:


> Hi Guys,
> 
> after some reading through the forums and mainly some great help from ausbuilt I've started my first course of insulin. Was just looking for some feedback on my diet during this time:
> 
> ...


for safety have the shakes with the 'slin. You can with the help of a BG meter- reduce your dextrose down- prob will be OK somewhere 6-7g carbs per iu, but this is individual and depends on your sensitivity.

You do need the extra cals to get bigger- that is the idea of the 'slin, but try and reel in your other carb meals (where there are no slin shots) so that your carbs are not out of control..

I changed your timing around a bit, as i don't recommend slin before training as you had... have it post workout, and then twice more through the day.. don't worry it will work well... do the 'slin EOD..

don't forget the T3, 20-25 mcg, 2 days on, 2 days off to make the most of the 'slin (and keep fat gain in check a little)


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## methos (Dec 23, 2008)

Cheers again mate.

I wouldnt normally have the PreWO shake tbh. I generally have my breakie shake and that's it. Would have the breakie shake at 8 but moved it forward slightly to allow an hour between shakes. So would be ok to move back to 8 and leave the second shake? I see my lovely toasted bagels have gone too  they were wishful thinking anyway I guess lol!

The T3 is ok? I have a load now but am also taking 4iu GH and I seem to recall being advised to change to T4 but am having difficulty sourcing this at the moment. Would you say go with the T3 or leave it? And do 2on 2off as opposed to ed?

Also on the slin off days continue with the met? 2 x 1000mcg.

May sound like a silly question but do I drop the dextrose/glucose on the non slin days?


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

methos said:


> Cheers again mate.
> 
> I wouldnt normally have the PreWO shake tbh. I generally have my breakie shake and that's it. Would have the breakie shake at 8 but moved it forward slightly to allow an hour between shakes. So would be ok to move back to 8 and leave the second shake? I see my lovely toasted bagels have gone too  they were wishful thinking anyway I guess lol!
> 
> ...


oh sorry, forgot about the HGH- in that case T4. Its easy to get, order it on: unitedpharmacies.co.uk

and its still 2on/2off.

You can do toasted bagels after you learn your BG reaction- so you may do 50% carbs in the shake, and 50% solid (like the bagel); make sure you're familiar with how your body reacts to a constant dose of 'slin (thats why its better to pick an amount like 7iu, or whatever, and just use it every time rather than changing often).

Up to you how you do your overall calorie intake, just have the whey+dextrose shake 10-15mins after your 'slin shot.

No need for the extra carbs on the non 'slin days.


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## methos (Dec 23, 2008)

Cheers again. T3 all ordered 

Just had another read through the GH blast thread. Been considering that for a while now. What are your thoughts on that?


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## Guest (Jun 24, 2011)

When you have 100g Dextrose do you drink it on its own or mix it with your shake? I had 10IU's this morning followed by my whey shake with 90g Dextrose and it was really sickening. Just wondering wether its better to take them seperate?


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## methos (Dec 23, 2008)

Ha ha, I was just thinking the same. I mixed mine with my whey prior to going to the gym because depending on traffic I can have up to a 30 minute drive so thought I'd drink it in the car on the way home. Jesus! It tastes awful! I'm still gonna mix it with they whey cause I'm lazy lol! Easier to take out and about then though too. Rather than carrying 2 separate bottles


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## Guest (Jun 24, 2011)

methos said:


> Ha ha, I was just thinking the same. I mixed mine with my whey prior to going to the gym because depending on traffic I can have up to a 30 minute drive so thought I'd drink it in the car on the way home. Jesus! It tastes awful! I'm still gonna mix it with they whey cause I'm lazy lol! Easier to take out and about then though too. Rather than carrying 2 separate bottles


Glad its not just me lol I think im going to lower the dextrose to around 60g and up the amount of oats to suit.

Im doing the same dosing of slin as you, and a similar diet plan (wish i could afford the GH!). I havent managed to get any T3 yet but im planning on getting it. Im only using slin to maintain atm not expecting to gain anything but who knows?


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

methos said:


> Just had another read through the GH blast thread. Been considering that for a while now. What are your thoughts on that?


Not a fan. Primarily because I don't believe the "blast" adequately addresses the actions of somatostatin:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somatostatin

Particularly it suppresses pacreatic hormones (insulin) and slows the metabolism (suppresses TSH- thryoid stimulating hormone)

Your "blast" would need to add insulin, and T3&T4 (yes, both..) just to overcome the suppression caused by somastatin. However this is all less likely if using 2iu of GH, as this is the highest "pulse" released in puberty (but in boys released up to 7x day , usually for a 4-5day period per month).

I'm a bigger fan of using GH, 'slin and T4 on either a EOD or 2on/2off protocol to minimise suppressive effects of somastatin, and.. GH use to be 2iu every 3-4hours up to 4-5 shots per day.

My theory is to minimise the time available to get the suppression of somastatin, which usually happens in about 3 days..



leeroy_davies said:


> When you have 100g Dextrose do you drink it on its own or mix it with your shake? I had 10IU's this morning followed by my whey shake with 90g Dextrose and it was really sickening. Just wondering wether its better to take them seperate?


I ALWAYS just add the dextrose to my protein shake; i've never separated these; make sure the shake has no added fats and you're fine (muscle milk is no good as shake when taking 'slin).



methos said:


> Ha ha, I was just thinking the same. I mixed mine with my whey prior to going to the gym because depending on traffic I can have up to a 30 minute drive so thought I'd drink it in the car on the way home. Jesus! It tastes awful! I'm still gonna mix it with they whey cause I'm lazy lol! Easier to take out and about then though too. Rather than carrying 2 separate bottles


a myth that you take separately. just take the shake (whey and dextrose) 10-15mins after your shot


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

leeroy_davies said:


> Glad its not just me lol I think im going to lower the dextrose to around 60g and up the amount of oats to suit. should be fine with this approach.
> 
> Im doing the same dosing of slin as you, and a similar diet plan (wish i could afford the GH!). I havent managed to get any T3 yet but im planning on getting it. Im only using slin to maintain atm not expecting to gain anything but who knows?


get T3 from unitedpharmacies.co.uk just search for "Liothyronine" and it will come up. Cheap and easy.


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## methos (Dec 23, 2008)

Oh right cheers mate. I'll just keep to my 4iu PWO as it's easier to be honest. Only just getting my head around this. Don't want to start something new just yet.

Today's going well. Much better than Wednesday. Have been taking my bloods starting at 30 mins after the first shot up until the following meal. First test tends to be quite high but being as I've just drunk 100g of glucose no real surprise. Comes in at 6.8-7.5 but quickly dropped to around the 5 mark so all good so far. Final check right before the next meal plummeted to 2.9 mind and boy did I notice it. Quickly drank 50mg of glucose with my meal and felt right as rain within mins.


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

methos said:


> Oh right cheers mate. I'll just keep to my 4iu PWO as it's easier to be honest. Only just getting my head around this. Don't want to start something new just yet.
> 
> Today's going well. Much better than Wednesday. Have been taking my bloods starting at 30 mins after the first shot up until the following meal. First test tends to be quite high but being as I've just drunk 100g of glucose no real surprise. Comes in at 6.8-7.5 but quickly dropped to around the 5 mark so all good so far. Final check right before the next meal plummeted to 2.9 mind and boy did I notice it. Quickly drank 50mg of glucose with my meal and felt right as rain within mins.


this is the "tuning" drop your glucose/dext from 10g iu, to 6 and make up the other 4g per iu with oats. If it drops to the 5 mark, also means you need to add complex carbs, as 5.6 is fasted- if you're under 5.6 you're to low. You're shooting for the slin to drop it to around 6-7, and the complex carbs to keep it around 6. You can play around with how much simple carbs up front you need (I end up using 5-6g per iu simple and remainder complex carbs), but the only way to tell is using your readings..

By the way the "following meal" should be another shake (50g whey) and 5g complex carbs per iu, 60mins after your shot (so about 45mins after your first shake). You could do some other protein and pasta if you like, but its only 5g per 1iu..

by having the 2nd shake/meal at the 60min mark, you def won't go below 5.0...


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## methos (Dec 23, 2008)

I'll have a look at my diet in a bit and work out the carbs etc exactly and look to change it. Just a quick question. You've put 20:00 10iu slin then a shake at 20:45. Is that right or would it be a shake at 20:15 or the slin at 20:30 so as to have the 15 mins between?


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## methos (Dec 23, 2008)

Have I understood you correctly with the following meal being a shake. Do you mean I should add a couple of shakes in to my diet outlined above? So take slin, 15 mins later 50g whey 100g dextrose and then 45 mins later another shake with 50g whey and 50g dextrose and then around 1:45hr later my meal?

Gonna need to get used to all this food/shakes if so. MyProtein here I come lol!


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

methos said:


> Have I understood you correctly with the following meal being a shake. Do you mean I should add a couple of shakes in to my diet outlined above? So take slin, 15 mins later 50g whey 100g dextrose and then 45 mins later another shake with 50g whey and 50g dextrose and then around 1:45hr later my meal?
> 
> Gonna need to get used to all this food/shakes if so. MyProtein here I come lol!


yes, this is correct. However you could work on lowering the dextrose form 10g/iu to 6-7g and replacing the the rest with some oats; the 2nd shake has 5g of carbs- but these should be more complex so maltodextrin (ok at a pinch); vitargo (better) or oats (best).

See this is why insulin packs on the size- both metabolic process wise- but also you force in more nutrients that are used properly (as in AAS+ 'slin +T3 (or T4))


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

methos said:


> I'll have a look at my diet in a bit and work out the carbs etc exactly and look to change it. Just a quick question. You've put 20:00 10iu slin then a shake at 20:45. Is that right or would it be a shake at 20:15 or the slin at 20:30 so as to have the 15 mins between?


good pick up- yes its shot at 20:00, first shake at 20:15 and next one at 21:00- you can have this as an "extra" or just move your 21:30 one forward- depending on how many calories you're shooting for..


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## methos (Dec 23, 2008)

ok, here we go. I think this might actually kill me but is this the kind of thing you have in mind?

7:45 Breakfast Shake 100g Oats, 30g Mornflake Oats, 40g Whey, 1 Banana, 400ml water

8:45 Shake 50g Whey, 50g Oats

9:00-10:30 Train

10:30- 10 iu 'slin

10:45 PWO shake 50g Whey Protein, 60g dextrose, 40g oats

11:00 4 iu GH

11:30 Shake 50g Whey, 50g Oats

13:30 125g wholegrain rice, 250g Fish/Chicken (50g dextrose/glucose)

15:45 10iu slin

16:00 Shake 50g Whey Protein, 60g dextrose, 40g oats

16:45 Shake 50g Whey, 50g Oats

18:30 125g wholegrain rice, 250g Fish/Chicken (50g glucose)

20:00 10iu slin

20:15 50g whey, 50g dextrose, 50g Oats

21:00 1 whole seed bagel with cottage cheese/quark, shake 50g whey protein

22:30 50g whey protein

so I've added a few more shakes in at the 60 min mark each containg 50g protein and 50g oats. I moved my 21:30 meal/snack forward and have added a purely protein based shake at 22:30 as I'm planning on then going to bed around 11, although of late it's been closer to twelve I am aiming on getting more sleep.

What I also did was to reduce the amount of glucose with my meals to 50g as I feel I'll be ok with this.

I've also popped in wheat time I've currently been taking my GH. I do this PWO and have always taken it roughly around the time I get home. The timing ok? I was advised to take it PWO and around 30 mins after slin so thought that would be around the right time.

God knows how I'm going to do with this. I can only imagine I'll spend my day eating, bit of training and a lot of sh1tting :confused1: ha ha!

cheers again!


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

methos said:


> ok, here we go. I think this might actually kill me but is this the kind of thing you have in mind?
> 
> 7:45 Breakfast Shake 100g Oats, 30g Mornflake Oats, 40g Whey, 1 Banana, 400ml water
> 
> ...


its looking like a real body builder get massive program- if you can stick with it, i'm sure its best results you'll have gotten since starting. At a pinch, to save time, you could prob do your GH at the same time as 'slin without any detriment, as the 'slin should take 20-30mins to peak, and GH should take 30mins.. and last for 2hours..

i can vouch for the ****tin- 2-3times a day...


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## methos (Dec 23, 2008)

Ah right. I'll take the GH and slin together then. That way I can mix in one pin right? Easier then as I can just about squeeze one pin in my GC meter bag so easy to take with me then.

It's gonna be difficult to stick with it but I'm certainly gonna give it shot. Thanks very much for all your help again mate!

Gonna be an interesting next few months


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## Guest (Jun 27, 2011)

This is a pretty big diet with all them shakes! I struggle to fit in 4 shakes a day. How heavy are you?

Ive worked out the macros on this diet: 460g+ Protein, 570g+Carbs and 60g Fats about 4600 cals!

I suppose this will guarantee growth..

I thought when using slin you need to try and keep your carb levels low-moderate to avoid excess fat gain. Can you clarify if this is the case? If not my diet may need further adjusting.... lol


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

leeroy_davies said:


> This is a pretty big diet with all them shakes! I struggle to fit in 4 shakes a day. How heavy are you?
> 
> Ive worked out the macros on this diet: 460g+ Protein, 570g+Carbs and 60g Fats about 4600 cals!
> 
> ...


ta da.. and now you understand why most people don't get "what they expect" when they use 'slin- they say, oh i've used it PWO and not noticed much.. etc..

to overcome the fat gain:

1. take T3 (or T4 if on GH)

2. You may add GH (if you can afford it)

3. Take DNP at 4mg/kg with your 'slin

1&3 together will do wonders. Don't forget T3 is essential- it speeds up protein synthesis (as i've stated earlier) which makes use of the fact that 'slin drives aminos into the cells; you metabolism is also faster, and you get less fat.

Add DNP, and you put no fat on at all...( i got leaner, while adding 10lb in 4weeks, using DNP & 'slin).

At any rate, regardless of whether you're on 'slin, if you're not getting 400-500g of protein a day, I'm of the firm belief you won't gain well- just drop your carbs if you're getting fat..

The idea of the shakes is that its easier to drink shakes that eat whole meals...

look at the BEGINNERS advice from an IFBB pro (not all mods on here like it):

his is a general guide for beginning and intermediate bodybuilders that don't know the principles behind muscle growth yet or are not happy with the results that they are currently getting.

We will go through training, diet and gear. I will

tell you the principles behind everything that I

recommend for you to do, so you can understand why

certain things happen, so in the future you can fix

problems yourself.

Bodybuilding is a very simple and logical endeavour.

Everything that you do has to be logical. Only logical

actions will give you results. Every time that you

come across a new principle, always ask yourself it it

makes logical sense. If it does not, dump it!

DIET

VERY simple. Very important that you try to get as

close to 500g of protein per day. Easiest way to do

that is to have a whey protein shake in water with

every meal. Fats and carbs don't matter. Calories

don't count, macro nutrients (protein, fat, carb) do.

If you get to add fat on, just cut out the fats and

keep your carbs bellow 300g/day. That's all it is!

Very simple, but hard to stick to, so not many people

get results. On gear, the more protein you eat, the

more you grow. Is as simple as that. Gear maximises

protein synthesis.

GEAR

You need a testosterone base. 750mg/week is plenty.

You need an anabolic - deca or Eq at 400mg/week is

plenty. You need for optimum growth, a good oral like

d-bol at 30mg/d or A-50 50mg/d.

You use the test and the anabolic non stop. The oral

is 4 weeks on 4 weeks off. Every 6th week (the half

way point between the off oral period - so 2 weeks

after you finish the oral) you have a blood test. If

the blood test is OK, then you can begin your next 4

weeks on oral. There is no reason for you to come off.

The only 2 reasons are health or your receptors are

saturated. If the regular blood test is OK, your

health is OK. If you are still making progress, your

receptors are OK. Coming off, will just sabotage your

gains. That's why I do not believe in set time frames

for cycles. Listen to your body. When you use the

oral, you need to use all the liver aids available - Synthergine,

milk thistle, L-methionine, liv-52, etc. Of course you

cannot drink or do rec drugs during that time. Using

these precautions, your blood tests will be OK.

You also need to use an anti estrogen like Nolvadex at

10mg/d throughout the whole time. Also, you have a

choice between HCG every 4 weeks at 5000IU or Clomid

at 50mg EOD. These will make sure that your balls will

stay at a decent size and they will not forget how to

function.

The blood tests that you need are: full blood count,

liver and kidney function tests, FSH, LH, TSH,

cholesterol.

If the Total protein test in the liver tests is high,

that is because of your diet. You need to keep an eye

on the Billirubin and Urea test results. Your FSH and

LH will be suppressed - that's normal because of the

gear. If the TSH is low, add 20mcg/d T3. If the kidney

function is off, then drink more. protein stresses the

kidneys, so you need more fluids.

When you eventually come off the gear, you make sure

that you are off the orals. Then cut out the anabolic

over 2 weeks. Then the testosterone over 3 weeks. One

week after that, you need to add primo tabs or anavar

(oxandrin) for 3 weeks. That will ensure that you will

keep your gains.

Ideally do a gainkeeper's formula that is outlined in another article.

TRAINING

Why does a muscle grow? Because it has to adapt. When

does it have to adapt? When you expose it to something

that it has not done before. When is something that it

has not done before? When the muscle is taxed 100%.

That's 100% effort. What's 100% effort? When you train

to 100% PHYSICAL, not mental failure. So, to make the

muscle grow, you have to train with 100% effort

otherwise, the muscle will not adapt/grow.

Now, using the above logic, for a set to be beneficial

to your growth, it needs to be 100% effort. So, a 100%

effort set of an exercise, will make you grow. Then,

what is the point to do a second set of that exercise?

You cannot go more than 100%. The muscle already has

been taxed by 100% from the first set, so why should

you do a second one? You will just eat into your

recovery ability.

So, you should only do one set to failure per

exercise. Later on, I will describe the training

program and how exercises and warm-ups are involved.

A muscle will not grow until it's recovered. The

muscle will not begin to recover until the nervous

system is recovered. It takes roughly 24hours for the

nervous system to recover from a workout. Only then

will the muscle begin to recover and grow. So, you

should never train 2 days in a row. Even if you train

different bodyparts, you still use the same nervous

system. You train 2 days in a row, your nervous system

recovers, but by the time the muscles begin to, you

train again, so the body has to concentrate again on

recovering the nervous system.

A training frequency of 3 days per week (Mon, Wed,

Fri) is more than enough. Numerous pros, including

myself, train like this offseason for maximum growth.

Even if you use streroids, you still have to train

like this. Steroids increase your recovery ability,

but they also make you stronger at a quicker rate. The

extra strength will give you the ability to train

harder/tear more muscle tissue, so you will need the

extra recovery that the steroids will give you.

The following is a great training program that I

recomend:

Mon - Chest, Shoulders, Triceps

* Incline press - warm-up sets, 1 work set

* Flat flyes - 1 work set

* Millitary press - 1 warm-up, 1 work set

* Lateral flyes - 1 work set

* Rear delt machine - 1 work set

* Tricep pushdowns - 1 warm-up, 1 work set

* Lying tricep extensions - 1 work-set

Wed - Quads, Hams, Calves

* Squats - warm-ups, 1 work set

* Leg press - work set

* Leg extension - work set

* Leg curl - warm-up, work set

* Stiff leg deadlift - work set

* Standing calf raise - work set

Fri - Abs, Back, Bis

* Rope crunches - warm up, work set

* Lat pull down - warm-ups, work set

* Deadlift - warm-up, work set

* Bent-over rows - work set

* Shrugs - work set

* Standing BB curls - warm up, work set

* Concentration curl - work set

You do a lot of warm-ups for your first exercise of

the day. You do one warm-up for the first exercise of

each bodypart, only to optimise the firing of te

neuropathways.

Let's use chest as an example - if for example your

max (work set) in the incline press is 3 plates, then

you do 2 warm-ups with the bar, 2 warm-ups with one

plate, 1 warm-up with 2 plates and then your work set

with 3 plates. The work set is a set where you fail at

about 6 reps. Every workout, you have to do more reps

or increase the weight in that work set (remember, the

muscle has to do something that it has not done

before). So if one work out you fail with 6 reps, the

following nothing less than 7. When you reach 8 reps,

the following workout you should do (increase) a

weight where you can do minimum 4 reps. Then increase

your reps again every workout until you reach 8 again,

and so on. Each rep has a tempo of 2-1-1. That is 2

seconds in the negative, one second in the contraction

and 1 second in the positive.

Then, after you fail in the incline press, you move

straight to flat flyes. You do not need a warmp now

because your chest is more than warm after you failed

on presses.

And that's it for chest. The basic routine stays the

same. If you want variety, small changes as using DB's

instead of BB or doing flat presse and incline flyes

for example, is mor ethan enough variety to keep the

muscle 'confused'.

These are the basic principles behind muscle growth. You do the above you will GROW, no matter what.


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## methos (Dec 23, 2008)

Can see now what ausbuilt is getting at. I've tried loads of things over the years and although most people consider me large, currently around 110kg, I don't really hang around with many bodybuilders anymore so don't have much comparison and I know I can still put on a lot more weight. I've changed everything in the past including my diet but I've never had a diet like this one. Fish is slowly steaming away as I write this and I have to admit I'm not looking forward to eating it lol!

Gonna be a tough few months but already I can feel a fullness in my muscles that I've not had before. Think it's a combo of my cyp kicking in and the slin perhaps rather than just the slin. Just come off a course of dodgy lixus test 400 so would imagine for around 6-7 weeks I was cold turkey.

This diet really is a struggle but I'm sure I'll adapt to it. Looking forward to seeing the results soonish 

Just hope I don't get too much fat!


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## methos (Dec 23, 2008)

How many carbs should I ideally be looking at in the rice I have in the meals. I've just bought a load of different sorts and they vary per 100g from 24g up to 73g of carbs. Massive difference! Don't wanna run low and risk a hypo and don't wanna be too high and risk blubber.


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

methos said:


> How many carbs should I ideally be looking at in the rice I have in the meals. I've just bought a load of different sorts and they vary per 100g from 24g up to 73g of carbs. Massive difference! Don't wanna run low and risk a hypo and don't wanna be too high and risk blubber.


your overall carbs are up to you. First plan your protein, then your carbs around you 'slin shots (lets call these the "essential" carbs) the remaining carbs/cals are up to you- if you're getting fat reduce your carbs until only the essential ones remain...

If you have two types of rice, and one offers 24g carbs per 100g, and the other 73, well it means you can have more of the first to make your goal in grams of carbs- so you will feel "fuller". Personally, when on a 'slin/anabolic phase diet like above, my problem is i ALWAYS feel full, so I opt for the more calorie dense/less volume of food.. but if you're after a full stomach feeling, go the opposite..

as i've said before, make sure at your size you get 50mcg T3 (200mcg T4 if on GH) 2days on 2days off to help with muscle growth and fat control..


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

leeroy_davies said:


> This is a pretty big diet with all them shakes! I struggle to fit in 4 shakes a day. How heavy are you?
> 
> Ive worked out the macros on this diet: 460g+ Protein, 570g+Carbs and 60g Fats about 4600 cals!
> 
> ...


by the way, if you're not eating like this, thats why even taking AAS you're not getting the size you expect- the number one reason for lack of gain on AAS is lack of protein, and calories... the 'slin is a great way of forcing the cals, but it also does an amazing amount of anabolic processes in your body to make use of the nutrients; combined with T3 (T4 with growth) and you will have an amazing amount of muscle being built from the amino's taken in..


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## Guest (Jun 28, 2011)

i cant even begin to keep with you about slin gh etc because ive never used them, always put on size from aas i feel your training and diet advice is debatable tbh

not everyone not matter the aas will be able to use 500g protein efficiently, not even jay cutler has that much in the offseason and in theory going one set to failure is all good but in the real world giving 100% for another set is very possible given enough rest inbetween sets and training one day on one day off??


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

ricky23 said:


> i cant even begin to keep with you about slin gh etc because ive never used them, always put on size from aas i feel your training and diet advice is debatable tbh
> 
> not everyone not matter the aas will be able to use 500g protein efficiently, not even jay cutler has that much in the offseason and in theory going one set to failure is all good but in the real world giving 100% for another set is very possible given enough rest inbetween sets and training one day on one day off??


Oh don't worry, I'm not saying that diet/training is THE way, more an illustration (from the professionalmuscle.com forum where i copied it from) where one of the main guys (an IFBB pro) makes this recommendation.

training wise, I do use something very close to this, but again it does vary; its by no means the answer; both diet and gear though are pretty simple but reasonable- i think the biggest lack of progress is due to both to little gear, and even if enough gear, to little protein/cals.

I actually use a formula based on bodymass, and I take in 438g (well I actually just round up to 440) protein per day.. and yes you can use it when (as I recommend) you take T3 supplementally with it.

The reason is:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thyroid

where you will see it states:

The thyroid gland controls *how quickly* the body uses energy, *makes proteins,* and controls how sensitive the body should be to other hormones.

now this is related to whats called the Protein Turn Over Rate (PTOR):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protein_turnover

also see this excellent explanation:

endocrine.pdf


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## Guest (Jun 28, 2011)

ausbuilt said:


> Oh don't worry, I'm not saying that diet/training is THE way, more an illustration (from the professionalmuscle.com forum where i copied it from) where one of the main guys (an IFBB pro) makes this recommendation.
> 
> training wise, I do use something very close to this, but again it does vary; its by no means the answer; both diet and gear though are pretty simple but reasonable- i think the biggest lack of progress is due to both to little gear, and even if enough gear, to little protein/cals.
> 
> ...


i always thought supplementing t3 (25-50mcg) for enhanced protein synthesis was overstated, might be wrong but havent seen much to suggest the benefits outweigh the risks especially if on aas like tren etc

might be wrong, aas do have a suppressing effect on thyroid levels but thought it was marginal tbh


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## methos (Dec 23, 2008)

ausbuilt said:


> your overall carbs are up to you. First plan your protein, then your carbs around you 'slin shots (lets call these the "essential" carbs) the remaining carbs/cals are up to you- if you're getting fat reduce your carbs until only the essential ones remain...
> 
> If you have two types of rice, and one offers 24g carbs per 100g, and the other 73, well it means you can have more of the first to make your goal in grams of carbs- so you will feel "fuller". Personally, when on a 'slin/anabolic phase diet like above, my problem is i ALWAYS feel full, so I opt for the more calorie dense/less volume of food.. but if you're after a full stomach feeling, go the opposite..
> 
> as i've said before, make sure at your size you get 50mcg T3 (200mcg T4 if on GH) 2days on 2days off to help with muscle growth and fat control..


Ah ok. Think it's becoming clearer by the day. So the essential carbs would be the ones in the shake directly after the shot is that right? So if I've understood exactly how slin works the combo of the dextrose and the oats giving me the quick and slow release carbs. The then following shakes and the meals are the carbs I could look to reduce if I were to start getting fat. Obviously start reducing these with the help of my BG meter?

That right?


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

ricky23 said:


> i always thought supplementing t3 (25-50mcg) for enhanced protein synthesis was overstated, might be wrong but havent seen much to suggest the benefits outweigh the risks especially if on aas like tren etc
> 
> might be wrong, aas do have a suppressing effect on thyroid levels but thought it was marginal tbh


its not really about suppressed thyroid. Look at what insulin does:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insulin

where under "physiological effects" it says:

he actions of insulin on the global human metabolism level include:

Control of cellular intake of certain substances, most prominently glucose in muscle and adipose tissue (about two-thirds of body cells)

Increase of DNA replication and protein synthesis via control of amino acid uptake

Modification of the activity of numerous enzymes

The actions of insulin (indirect and direct) on cells include:

Increased glycogen synthesis - insulin forces storage of glucose in liver (and muscle) cells in the form of glycogen; lowered levels of insulin cause liver cells to convert glycogen to glucose and excrete it into the blood. This is the clinical action of insulin, which is directly useful in reducing high blood glucose levels as in diabetes.

Increased lipid synthesis - insulin forces fat cells to take in blood lipids, which are converted to triglycerides; lack of insulin causes the reverse.

Increased esterification of fatty acids - forces adipose tissue to make fats (i.e., triglycerides) from fatty acid esters; lack of insulin causes the reverse.

Decreased proteolysis - decreasing the breakdown of protein

Decreased lipolysis - forces reduction in conversion of fat cell lipid stores into blood fatty acids; lack of insulin causes the reverse.

Decreased gluconeogenesis - decreases production of glucose from nonsugar substrates, primarily in the liver (the vast majority of endogenous insulin arriving at the liver never leaves the liver); lack of insulin causes glucose production from assorted substrates in the liver and elsewhere.

Decreased autophagy - decreased level of degradation of damaged organelles. Postprandial levels inhibit autophagy completely.[26]

Increased amino acid uptake - forces cells to absorb circulating amino acids; lack of insulin inhibits absorption.

Increased potassium uptake - forces cells to absorb serum potassium; lack of insulin inhibits absorption. Insulin's increase in cellular potassium uptake lowers potassium levels in blood. This possible occurs via insulin-induced translocation of the Na+/K+-ATPase to the surface of skeletal muscle cells.[27][28]

Arterial muscle tone - forces arterial wall muscle to relax, increasing blood flow, especially in microarteries; lack of insulin reduces flow by allowing these muscles to contract.

Increase in the secretion of hydrochloric acid by parietal cells in the stomach

Decreased renal sodium excretion.[29]

then, you will see why increased T3 levels are essential; insulin will GREATLY affect "the increase of DNA replication and protein synthesis via control of amino acid uptake" and further it "Decreased proteolysis - decreasing the breakdown of protein"

so you can see that when you increase PTOR via T3, you will build more muscle as the insulin also (synergistically) increases protein syntheiss and stops the breakdown of protein- this last point is important- PTOR means protein is taken in AND excreted faster- but with insulin you are making the process more anabolic, as you are reducing the breakdown, while the T3 increases the take up in combination with the insulin; and this happens at a faster rate because of the T3..

many people think that T3 can reduce muscle mass (burns it as they say), but this is wrong- it just increases protein turn over... but if you increase your protein intake to match, then you build it as fast as you tear it down- then when you take AAS or 'slin, you stop the tear down, but you retain the increased build up.. much faster than AAS alone or 'slin alone, plus your metabolism generally is increased so you put less fat on, even though bulking..

most don't understand PTOR, hence have mistakenly thought t3 burns muscle..

dont forget 50mcg of T3 is effectively double the amount of T3 in your body normally- and means you have effectively 75mcg of t3 working.. you need a lot more protein than you would without the T3...


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

methos said:


> Ah ok. Think it's becoming clearer by the day. So the essential carbs would be the ones in the shake directly after the shot is that right? So if I've understood exactly how slin works the combo of the dextrose and the oats giving me the quick and slow release carbs. The then following shakes and the meals are the carbs I could look to reduce if I were to start getting fat. Obviously start reducing these with the help of my BG meter?
> 
> That right?


the essential carbs are the ones in the first shake and the (optional 2nd shake an hour later- I don't need this one, some do). you can refine the carbs down in the 2nd optional shake and your general remaining intake- yes use a BG meter- you don't want your BG under 6.0 at 1hour and 2hours after your shot.


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## methos (Dec 23, 2008)

ausbuilt said:


> I actually use a formula based on bodymass, and I take in 438g (well I actually just round up to 440) protein per day


I'd have to agree with you on this one. I've always just struggled either financially or physically eating that much in the past which has prevented me eating as much protein as I'd need but I remember a couple of lads who trained in my gym who just stood out from the rest. Both ate in excess of 400g protein a day. Although there are "scientifically proven studies" to suggest more than 2-2.5g of protein per body kg is a waste the larger guys I've spoken to always try to be more around 4g per body kg. Must be some truth to it.


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## PharmaSay (Jun 9, 2010)

While I dont agree with Aus on some aspects (DNP and insulin !!) his take on thyroid meds and v.high protein are spot on when using AAS/HGH/insulin.


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