# Warning about the effects of shrugs



## Keyser Soze (Dec 12, 2005)

Hi all,

You remember there came a point in the 90's when people said, DON'T roll your shoulders when shrugging!" Here's an article advising against doing shrugs AT ALL, the author seems to use a lot of medical terminology but is suspiciously light on proven cases of shoulder injury caused by shrugs. Moreover, he informs us that shrugs only target the upper traps and make them overly strong, compared to the rest of the traps, thus leading to shoulder injuries, then urges us to work our middle and lower traps more to balance out the strength, but doesn't suggest how we isolate them. Have a read, tell me if you give any weight to this:

http://stephenholtfitness.com/articles/shrugging_at_shrugs.htm

KS


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## LondonGeezer (May 25, 2006)

hmm.. interesting read.

i duno man :S i only started doing shrugs last week and i did feel a bit weiry about the whole idea of shoulder damage i never looked it up because i thought its part of training and as long as you get it right and be carefull it should be ok.


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## RAIKEY (Jun 30, 2005)

if your keeping a nice routine that includes *deadlifting* once or twice a week, then IMO shrugs are not needed anyway.


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## LondonGeezer (May 25, 2006)

DAY 1

Chest: Flat bench press. 5 sets of your heaviest weight, 10 reps.

DAY 2

Back: Chins. 5 sets of 10 reps. If you can do more than 10 reps, then you need to attach extra weight to your body. You can also do pulldowns instead of chins.

DAY 3

Legs: Squats. 4 sets of the heaviest weight you can handle, 10 reps. Leg extensions: 3 sets, 20 reps. Hamstring curls: 3 sets, 15 reps

DAY 4

Shoulders: Overhead dumbbell press. 5 sets of the heaviest weight you can handle. 10 reps. Side raises: 4 sets, 10 reps.

DAY 5

Lower back & traps: Deadlifts. 4 sets of the heaviest weight you can handle. 10 reps. Shrugs: 4 sets of the heaviest weight you can handle, 15 reps.

DAY 6

Biceps & triceps: Dips: 5 sets of the heaviest weight. 10 reps. If you can dip over 10 reps, then you need to add weight to your body using a dip belt. Biceps: Dumbbell curls on a preacher bench, using heaviest weight you can handle, 10 reps.

DAY 7

Rest

**that was my 6day routine when cycling.. otherwise i dont involve shrugs and i break it down to 3days a week.. this way im always changing my training regime every 6weeks so my body doesn't adapt to it either.


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## Ironman (Jul 12, 2005)

I like to add shrugs after my deadlifts - I find that deadlifts effects my traps the most as I add a slight shrug at the top of the movement - I finish off with a couple sets of fairly light shrugs just to gete the blood in there.

However on the medical side - I do have a bad left shoulder which ive had to get cortisone injected into - who knows if this is related to shrugs?


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## BIG-UNC (Feb 27, 2006)

i feel better when i use d/bells for shrugs you dont have to go as heavy which cuts down on the chance of injury and i never roll my shoulders! just try and touch my ears and stay for 2-3 secs then back down!


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## the_gre8t_1ne (Apr 18, 2005)

I usualy do them with a barbell, and go heavy! same princables as unc!


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## samurai691436114498 (Jan 6, 2005)

Just discussing shrugs on another forum:rolleye11 ,

and there are a load more versions of shrugs, than the normal up downs........

I think you have to have good overall trap development and a normal exercise programme that has deadlifts or shrugs or clean type movements and some forms of rowing will allow for a pretty comprehensive trap development

:lift:


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## samurai691436114498 (Jan 6, 2005)

shrug variations

normal shrug

behind back shrug

d bell shrug

calf machine shrug

over head shrug

incline bench shrug 1 sitting on incline bench

incline bench shrug 2 laying face forward on incline bench

cable row shrugs

there are more

also dead and clean movements will work upper, mid and lower traps


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## Robsta (Oct 2, 2005)

I like to do shrugs on the smiths....I find it easier to go heavy on it, and the weight is only limited by your grip, I find 5 x8-10 reps with 120-160 kilos gives a real nice burn for a couple of days after....

never injured myself doing them though, but I do them at the end of my shoulder workout so should be warmed up a bit...I do start with 80 kg on though at 15-20 reps to warm up...same as dunc- holding for 2-3 secs between reps, gets a bit difficult at 160 kg though, and I never roll my shoulders back while doing them....maybe that's why I've not injured myself..

You wait, bet I do shoulder's next week and friggin' dislocate it or somethin'


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## big pete (Mar 23, 2004)

samurai69 said:


> over head shrug


come again sam????

the only thing i can think of is like a shoulder press but keeping arms locked! close to the mark?

bloody hell, cookie has alot to answer for!!!!!!!!


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## Ironman (Jul 12, 2005)

shrug variations

normal shrug

behind back shrug

d bell shrug

calf machine shrug

over head shrug

incline bench shrug 1 sitting on incline bench

incline bench shrug 2 laying face forward on incline bench

cable row shrugs

Ive used all of these apart from the overhead and bench shrug - which sound pretty rubbish imo.


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## Cookie (Sep 14, 2009)

big pete said:


> come again sam????
> 
> the only thing i can think of is like a shoulder press but keeping arms locked! close to the mark?
> 
> bloody hell, cookie has alot to answer for!!!!!!!!


Hahahaha what you trying to say big fella?

Check out the site buddy for more info



> Ive used all of these apart from the overhead and bench shrug - which sound pretty rubbish imo.


Interesting viewpoint!

But then again they are very sport specific and maybe not for regular bbers who do have a tendency to not stray much from the regular training path.......


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## Ironman (Jul 12, 2005)

ONE SMART COOKIE said:


> Interesting viewpoint!
> 
> But then again they are very sport specific and maybe not for regular bbers who do have a tendency to not stray much from the regular training path.......


I think bbers stay on the regular training path because its all pretty much tried, tested and proven.

It would be interesting to know which sports would benift from such exercises though?


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## Cookie (Sep 14, 2009)

Ironman said:


> I think bbers stay on the regular training path because its all pretty much tried, tested and proven.
> 
> *Have to disagree with you there, imo, bbing has all but ruined true training and made it a hell of a lot more complicated than it should be, hence all the bollocks in the mags and on the net this past 20yrs...Then again I could/should say over use of "Steroids" in bbing have all but ruined true training....*
> 
> ...


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## Keyser Soze (Dec 12, 2005)

Ironman said:


> I think bbers stay on the regular training path because its all pretty much tried, tested and proven.


That, and they either lack the imagination, the entrepreneurial spirit or in a few cases the sheer courage to deviate from the the "One-Size-Fits-All" ethos in the BB world today. After a time you're so conditioned to keeping good form, to lifting heavy all the time, remembering to go to failure on the last rep of the last set EACH session, that they don't think to question, after a certain time, the time-honoured principles. There should come a point where what's right for you is wrong for ME. Not many BB'ers know how many reps they did for the entire session, back in the 70's it was a big deal whether you did (for example) a total of 200 or 205 reps that session. Sometimes, to shock your body, you need to do 50 or a hundred reps, or do a deadlift between your legs, or do your cardio at midnight, or do a second calf workout in the same week, whatever.

Not knocking my brothers in iron, I've been guilty of all the above, that's what sites like these are for, so we can pool our info.



> It would be interesting to know which sports would benift from such exercises though?


Probably rowing, discus-throwing, Boxing, anything where the arm goes forward/back from a raised position.

KS


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## Keyser Soze (Dec 12, 2005)

Duplicate.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

RAIKEY said:


> if your keeping a nice routine that includes *deadlifting* once or twice a week, then IMO shrugs are not needed anyway.


Bang on the money here and deads also do develop the lower trap as well.

Low rows do hit some low trap if you get a good stretch.


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## Peg (Feb 9, 2006)

Common sense should prevail.

1. Any exercise can cause injury if you are not executing it correctly.

2. Body alignment is also important to prevent injury.

3. To work one muscle group more than the other will cause an imbalance of function and can cause injury or lack of strength down the road.

Some excerpts from the following link on shoulder injury may shed some light on the importance of the middle and lower traps.

"...The same advice would apply to *all adults who do resistance training*: be sure to include shoulder exercises for the rotatorcuff and scapular stabilisers in order to develop balanced strength in the upper body...."

*What Goes Wrong*

Recent research by Kibler and McMullen(3) uses the concept of 'scapular dyskinesis': an alteration in the normal position or motion of the scapula during coupled scapulo-humeral movements. They suggest that a variety of symptoms share the same biomechanical fault - the inhibition or disorganisation of activation patterns in scapular stabilising muscles, leading to altered scapular function.

This idea is supported by research from a team from Belgium(4). Cools et al investigated the timing of trapezius muscle activity during a sudden downward falling movement of the arm, comparing the performance of 39 overhead athletes with shoulder impingement against that of 30 overhead athletes with no impingement. The trapezius operates on the scapula in three sections: the lower portion depresses, the middle portion retracts, and the upper portion raises it.

"Another study from Cools and his team(5) investigated whether 19 overhead athletes with impingement symptoms had differences in their scapular muscle force (measured by isokinetic dynamometer) and electromyographic activity on the affected and uninjured sides.

They found that the injured side showed significantly lower peak force during protraction, a significantly lower ratio of protraction to retraction force and significantly lower electromyographic activity in the lower trapezius during retraction.

Together these findings support the concept of scapular dyskinesis involving abnormal recruitment timing and strength of the trapezius muscle - specifically the lower and middle portions. These results underline the importance for injury prevention of good scapular stability in the depression and retraction movements.

*How to Protect Your Shoulders*

It would seem from the research that *incorrect muscle function (developed through sport-specific demands or injury) is most evident in the lower and middle trapezius and lateral rotator-cuff muscles*. From a practical viewpoint this means overhead athletes and people involved in weight training need to spend time on specific strengthening shoulder exercises to promote injury prevention and ensure balanced strength and good posture.

Step 1: equalise front and rear strength

Step 2: develop good pulling form

Step 3: isolate the rotator cuff

Here is the link for the tables and exercises and more discussion on the topic.

Preventing sports injury of the upper body.


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## Peg (Feb 9, 2006)

Excerpt from Shoulder anatomy

"Muscle imbalances can cause big problems, because subtle muscle imbalances are difficult to diagnose and take time and commitment to redress and rebalance. Most common imbalances result from aggressive bench pressing without concomitant work on the opposing muscles including the traps, lats, rhomboids and stabilizers, specifically the muscles comprising the rotator cuff. Most quality health clubs will array their cybex or universal machines in such a way that you exercise the protagonists and antagonists as you move sequentially down the exercise line. Do not skip machines.

Stabilizer muscles like the rotator cuff muscles need to be specifically worked with very light weights, say three to five pounds, or elastic bands. Heavier weights will merely engage the larger muscles of the deltoids leaving the SITS muscles dormant and unprepared."



From Exrx.net

*Trapezius, Middle Fibers*

See exercises for

*General Back *

Trapezius, Upper

*Also see Shoulder exercises*

Deltoid, Anterior

Deltoid, Lateral

Deltoid, Posterior

See Fixed Bar Rhomboids

Also see Rear Deltoid Stretch for Posterior Deltoid.

Also see Side Deltoid Stretch for Lateral Deltoid.

*Trapezius, Lower Fibers*

See exercises

*General Back *

Latissimus Dorsi & Teres Minor

*Also see Shoulder exercises*

Deltoid, Anterior

Deltoid, Lateral

Deltoid, Posterior

See Fixed Bar Back Stretch for General Back.

Also see Rear Deltoid Stretch for Posterior Deltoid.

Also see Side Deltoid Stretch for Lateral Deltoid.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Peg said:


> Most common imbalances result from aggressive bench pressing without concomitant work on the opposing muscles including the traps, lats, rhomboids and stabilizers, specifically the muscles comprising the rotator cuff.


For the record this is how I injured my shoulder.

my chiropractor said this was years in the making.

He also suggested some exercises that would improve my imballance to improve the injury.

He said it will take time and boy oh boy was he right about that one.

Seems I took years to actually create this imballance and will take some time to re-do what I have done.

Some exercises I do are rhomboid exercises, rear delt exercises and I do far more diffrent angle bent over rowing movements.

I go as heavy as possible on bent over rows to allow for as much strengthing as possible.

I also do rotator cuff exercises, both interior and exterior rotator exercises.

Helped a bunch.

Cool post Peg.


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## Peg (Feb 9, 2006)

Thanks, Scott.

I think the more we become aware of the muscles we have the better we can train them.

I think too many times we start things by just diving into them and develop bad habits.

I've always been one to observe and study my body to learn more about it so that I will not injure it. Sometimes in my haste to achieve a certain result I may cut corners and move ahead too fast.

When I've been lazy and eat a crappy diet, I tend to cause injury.

When I do not fully understand the mechanics of the muscle motion, I tend to cause injury.

This slow approach is a blessing and a curse in my MA training. My instructor keeps telling me to not think so much! LOL. He is right too, but I have to first understand the biomechanics to be able to visualize it for it to become second nature to me.

To learn something new correctly, takes time, focus, observation, reevaluation, and lots of questions and practice. The practice can be slow and difficult at first to get it down correctly.

I am applying the same care to my weight training as I am learning more about it and applying what I learn to my routines.

Bodybuilding is fun but it is definitely a learned discipline of the body, mind, and spirit. I definitely like the shapely results training is producing. I still have a ways to go to what I envision for myself. It will happen.


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## Ironman (Jul 12, 2005)

Keyser Soze said:


> That, and they either lack the imagination, the entrepreneurial spirit or in a few cases the sheer courage to deviate from the the "One-Size-Fits-All" ethos in the BB world today. After a time you're so conditioned to keeping good form, to lifting heavy all the time, remembering to go to failure on the last rep of the last set EACH session, that they don't think to question, after a certain time, the time-honoured principles. There should come a point where what's right for you is wrong for ME. Not many BB'ers know how many reps they did for the entire session, back in the 70's it was a big deal whether you did (for example) a total of 200 or 205 reps that session. Sometimes, to shock your body, you need to do 50 or a hundred reps, or do a deadlift between your legs, or do your cardio at midnight, or do a second calf workout in the same week, whatever.
> 
> KS


Everyone is different - but If I do a bench it hits my chest - if you do bench it hits your chest.

I was referring to the exercises in bbing not the principals, I think over the years the best exercise have been tried tested an proven - thats why when you go to a gym or you watch a pro bbing video you dont see anyone doing upside down shrugs one legged deadlifts.

JMO


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## Peg (Feb 9, 2006)

Ironman said:


> I was referring to the exercises in bbing not the principals


I will agree with you there but the exercises are based on the principles of the biomechanics of the muscle's range of motion.

I do think you can have some entreprenuerial bodybuilding movements if you understand the biomechanics thoroughly.

After all, the basic tried and true moves at one time were entreprenuerial were they not?

The bottom line for me is to use the exercises that work the muscle groups the best with the least potential for injury for the goals that I want for my physique, in my opinion...

Those are the exercises that I want to master and use in my training.

Seems to me that shrugs will cause shoulder injury down the road unless I doubly take care to do them correctly and also work the middle and lower trap. From reading this thread, I am not sure if they are worth the effort if another exercise does it better with less potential for injury.


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## Ironman (Jul 12, 2005)

Peg said:


> I do think you can have some entreprenuerial bodybuilding movements if you understand the biomechanics thoroughly. You can, but again - if they were productive they would be mainstream by now surely?
> 
> After all, the basic tried and true moves at one time were entreprenuerial were they not? This is true.
> 
> ...


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## Peg (Feb 9, 2006)

We are agreed, Ironman.

It is a matter of personal preference.

Mainstream by now? Maybe, maybe not, all art evolves as more knowledge is comprehended and applied.

There is the old saying as well, "Why reinvent the wheel?" 

We are creators and inventors by design... It is always good to tweek that wheel to go faster and last longer.

Having so many exercises to choose from makes it difficult for anyone beginning to know where to start and how to safely build the repertoire of exercises in their routine based on the goals that they want.

For my goals, shrugs are not an exercise I need nor want at the moment. I may not be able to do them correctly and adversely hurt myself down the road as Scott did.

My goals may change in the future and I may add them as I become more experienced in the art. That is the beauty and challenge of bodybuilding... the dynamics of the transformation of the body. It is never a static thing.


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## rayvonn (Nov 17, 2005)

Keyser Soze said:


> Hi all,
> 
> You remember there came a point in the 90's when people said, DON'T roll your shoulders when shrugging!" Here's an article advising against doing shrugs AT ALL, the author seems to use a lot of medical terminology but is suspiciously light on proven cases of shoulder injury caused by shrugs. Moreover, he informs us that shrugs only target the upper traps and make them overly strong, compared to the rest of the traps, thus leading to shoulder injuries, then urges us to work our middle and lower traps more to balance out the strength, but doesn't suggest how we isolate them. Have a read, tell me if you give any weight to this:
> 
> ...


I like shrugs but have no idea how dangerous they are as only been training for a month so far


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## Captain Hero (Jun 13, 2004)

Keyser Soze said:


> Hi all,
> 
> You remember there came a point in the 90's when people said, DON'T roll your shoulders when shrugging!" Here's an article advising against doing shrugs AT ALL, the author seems to use a lot of medical terminology but is suspiciously light on proven cases of shoulder injury caused by shrugs. Moreover, he informs us that shrugs only target the upper traps and make them overly strong, compared to the rest of the traps, thus leading to shoulder injuries, then urges us to work our middle and lower traps more to balance out the strength, but doesn't suggest how we isolate them. Have a read, tell me if you give any weight to this:
> 
> ...


Arnie and the other old timers used to do shrugs loads and I dont see any of them with shoulder problems, not that I see them on a day to day basis but you get me


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## megatron (Apr 21, 2004)

I find it much easier to damage shoulders by doing overhead press style exercises than shrugs.

having said that I don't feel that the RoM of shrugging does a great deal.


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## Carlos901 (Nov 5, 2004)

i have to agree there, i always get a pain when i do overhead press


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