# What I Have Learned in over 30 Years of on and off Use & Lifting by banzi



## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

Genetics

Its all down to picking your parents.


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## Fluke82 (Sep 10, 2015)




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## RUDESTEW (Mar 28, 2015)

I gets it now , the whole terminator movie thing is some pencil neck wanting big A to nail his old lady so he can go the the gym and get buff in the future


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## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

Eat what you like and lift, if it's going to happen you will make gains regardless.

If you cant make improvements eating a normal western diet and lifting 3/4 days a week, no amount of drugs is going to make you Mr Universe.


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## superpube (Feb 18, 2015)

Stop blinding me with broscience and speak plain English.


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## Frandeman (Mar 24, 2014)

banzi said:


> Genetics
> 
> Its all down to picking your parents.


That's why you got the face of a monkey?


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## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

Train for a year unassisted, if you make gains you can consider drugs.

Try a simple oral cycle 25mgs a day Dbol/Winstrol, if you respond well and make some good gains then consider moving forward.

If this doesn't work for you then take up another sport, its not for you.


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## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

banzi said:


> Eat what you like and lift, if it's going to happen you will make gains regardless.
> 
> If you cant make improvements eating a normal western diet and lifting 3/4 days a week, no amount of drugs is going to make you Mr Universe.


Am I going to make it?...............Be honest


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## Frandeman (Mar 24, 2014)

FelonE said:


> Am I going to make it?...............Be honest


No with that face mate


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## Dead lee (Jul 4, 2010)

Ha ha.


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## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

Frandeman said:


> No with that face mate


P1ss off Manuel


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## Mingster (Mar 25, 2011)

TBF I have even more experience lol and I must say that Banzi has pretty much nailed it here. The amount of vitamins, minerals, carbs, meal timings and all the rest of the mumbo jumbo that passes for science means very little in the grander scheme of things. Most of it is designed to part people with their hard earned cash chasing an impossible dream

Yes, you can improve yourself but no amount of clean eating, supplements, training splits and drugs is going to make you into a champion if you haven't got the genes in the first place.


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## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

Bignath4607 said:


> damn it best send all my chicken and gear back then :-(


post a pic and I will confirm.


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## DLTBB (Jan 26, 2015)

banzi said:


> Train for a year unassisted, if you make gains you can consider drugs.
> 
> Try a simple oral cycle 25mgs a day Dbol/Winstrol, if you respond well and make some good gains then consider moving forward.
> 
> If this doesn't work for you then take up another sport, its not for you.


Lmao now I know you're trolling. You can't make gains on less than 3 grams of gear. Get out of here.


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## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

DLTBB said:


> Lmao now I know you're trolling. You can't make gains on less than 3 grams of gear. Get out of here.


My first course was 16mgs a day of Winstrol tabs (Zambon), I put about 20lbs on in 10 weeks, dropped about 14lbs when I came off.

I actually tapered up and down.


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## DLTBB (Jan 26, 2015)

banzi said:


> My first course was 16mgs a day of Winstrol tabs (Zambon), I put about 20lbs on in 10 weeks, dropped about 14lbs when I came off.
> 
> I actually tapered up and down.


Bet that cost you a few shillings..


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## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

DLTBB said:


> Bet that cost you a few shillings..


Free, I just had to suck a schmos cock.


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## DLTBB (Jan 26, 2015)

banzi said:


> Free, I just had to suck a schmos cock.


Modern gear dealers are money hungry cu**s and don't accept that kind of payment. :'(


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## nWo (Mar 25, 2014)

banzi said:


> Genetics
> 
> Its all down to picking your parents.


Never thought I'd say it again, but... I love my dad


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## DLTBB (Jan 26, 2015)

Bignath4607 said:


> lmao I love a good gob job


Banzi might be up for it if he sees the order you just had delivered.


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## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

Genetics explained

Both men likely eating and training pretty much the same.


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## barksie (Nov 23, 2014)

> Eat what you like and lift, if it's going to happen you will make gains regardless.
> 
> If you cant make improvements eating a normal western diet and lifting 3/4 days a week, no amount of drugs is going to make you Mr Universe.


you just burst my bubble


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## FuqOutDaWhey (Apr 29, 2015)

banzi said:


> Train for a year unassisted, if you make gains you can consider drugs.
> 
> Try a simple oral cycle 25mgs a day Dbol/Winstrol, if you respond well and make some good gains then consider moving forward.
> 
> If this doesn't work for you then take up another sport, its not for you.


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## duranman (Aug 12, 2015)

I believe anyone can attain a great physique with the right single mindedness. If you believe you're not 'genetically gifted', don't worry about it, just want it more. But agree don't even THINK about steroids if you haven't already attained a physique better than 99% of the population.


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## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

duranman said:


> I believe anyone can attain a great physique with the right single mindedness. If you believe you're not 'genetically gifted', don't worry about it, just want it more. But agree don't even THINK about steroids if you haven't already attained a physique better than 99% of the population.


Show me an an example of a great physique which you believe can be acquired by single mindedness.


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## ausmaz (Jul 14, 2014)

So let me get this straight..... i can train hard, eat well, go to bed on time, take my supplements, say my prayers and stick myself chock full of hormones, but I'll NEVER be black?

Im just......


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## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

ausmaz said:


> So let me get this straight..... i can train hard, eat well, go to bed on time, take my supplements, say my prayers and stick myself chock full of hormones, but I'll NEVER be black?
> 
> Im just......
> 
> View attachment 118172


Enough mt2 will do it mate.


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## duranman (Aug 12, 2015)

banzi said:


> Show me an an example of a great physique which you believe can be acquired by single mindedness.


Let's say a very good physique then. What about Stallone? By his own admission he had little going for him genetically....


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## nitrogen (Oct 25, 2007)

duranman said:


> Let's say a very good physique then. What about Stallone? By his own admission he had little going for him genetically....


HGH


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## duranman (Aug 12, 2015)

nitrogen said:


> HGH


During Rocky 1 and 2? I doubt it. 3 not sure. In 4 take your point. Man was utterly dedicated.


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## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

duranman said:


> Let's say a very good physique then. What about Stallone? By his own admission he had little going for him genetically....


stallone turned a fat big physique into a ripped one.


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## duranman (Aug 12, 2015)

banzi said:


> stallone turned a fat big physique into a ripped one.


With hard work. And raw eggs....


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## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

Im not really sure what point you are making.


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## ausmaz (Jul 14, 2014)

banzi said:


> What i meant to say is that MY GENETICS are better than all you scumbag sh!tkickers....... so suck it....
> 
> That is all


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## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

looks like the quote function is ****ed again.


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## duranman (Aug 12, 2015)

banzi said:


> Im not really sure what point you are making.


Stallone was a little skinny guy who built himself up with weights and admittedly a bulky and not great diet. But he was still impressive enough before he got that Frank Zane look with Dolph in 4.


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## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

duranman said:


> Stallone was a little skinny guy who built himself up with weights and admittedly a bulky and not great diet. But he still impressive enough before he got that Frank Zane look with Dolph in 4.


Are you agreeing or disagreeing with my premise?


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## duranman (Aug 12, 2015)

banzi said:


> Are you agreeing or disagreeing with my premise?


I do not believe Stallone was 'genetically gifted' no...


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## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

duranman said:


> I do not believe Stallone was 'genetically gifted' no...


the fact he made gains by lifting weights and a not great diet says otherwise.

Some guys take grams of gear eat like a Spartan and train like animals and LLS, thats crap genetics


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## duranman (Aug 12, 2015)

banzi said:


> the fact he made gains by lifting weights and a not great diet says otherwise.
> 
> Some guys take grams of gear eat like a Spartan and train like animals and LLS, thats crap genetics


So how can we ascertain your point? Love or hate him the man's utter single mindedness made him successful. We can agree to differ because this argument is pure conjecture, but I believe he grafted his balls off for every muscle with little genetic help.


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## averagejoe95 (Apr 13, 2015)

@banzi dat u in your profile banner?


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## Mingster (Mar 25, 2011)

Nobody is saying anyone can't build some sort of physique. I said that no amount of training splits, supplements, meal timings, diet of r drugs will make you a champion. Don't think Stallone's physique would win a local show tbf and he has all the cash in the world to hire trainers, nutritionists, doctors etc.


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## duranman (Aug 12, 2015)

Mingster said:


> Nobody is saying anyone can't build some sort of physique. I said that no amount of training splits, supplements, meal timings, diet of r drugs will make you a champion. Don't think Stallone's physique would win a local show tbf and he has all the cash in the world to hire trainers, nutritionists, doctors etc.


Stallone didn't have pot to piss in early days, but of course, he'd never win a show. In Rocky 4 he looked awesome, though agree HGH enhanced


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## Mingster (Mar 25, 2011)

duranman said:


> Stallone didn't have pot to piss in early days, but of course, he'd never win a show. In Rocky 4 he looked awesome, though agree HGH enhanced.


But nowhere near a champions physique in weight lifting terms.


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## duranman (Aug 12, 2015)

Mingster said:


> But nowhere near a champions physique in weight lifting terms.


Perhaps by today's standards, but very similar to Frank Zane I thought.


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## Mingster (Mar 25, 2011)

duranman said:


> Perhaps by today's standards, but very similar to Frank Zane I thought.


I disagree. Not within a million miles. But you are welcome to your opinion.

And by the time he made Rocky 4 he would have had a few bob I would imagine.


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## duranman (Aug 12, 2015)

Mingster said:


> I disagree. Not within a million miles. But you are welcome to your opinion.
> 
> And by the time he made Rocky 4 he would have had a few bob I would imagine.


The latter is certainly true


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## essexboy (Sep 7, 2008)

banzi said:


> Genetics
> 
> Its all down to picking your parents.


Arthur Jones of Nautilus fame, said something very similar, in his book My first 50 years in the Iron game.I quote." A true Mesomorph will after 6 months of training look like hes spent 10 years in the gym.A true ectomorph whos been training 10 years, will look like hes spent 6 months in the gym"

"After 50 years of designing machines, training world class bodybuilders, and earning a billion dollars in the process,Ive come to the conclusion that for the average trainee, a combination of squats, chins and dips, will build as much muscle as they are ever going to get"


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## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

averagejoe95 said:


> @banzi dat u in your profile banner?


yes, 1996


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## duranman (Aug 12, 2015)

essexboy said:


> Arthur Jones of Nautilus fame, said something very similar, in his book My first 50 years in the Iron game.I quote." A true Endomorph will after 6 months of training look like hes spent 10 years in the gym.A true ectomorph whos been training 10 years, will look like hes spent 6 months in the gym"
> 
> "After 50 years of designing machines, training world class bodybuilders, and earning a billion dollars in the process,Ive come to the conclusion that for the average trainee, a combination of squats, chins and dips, will build as much muscle as they are ever going to get"


And what of the mesomorph?...


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## Mingster (Mar 25, 2011)

I'm not saying you can't build a decent physique from average genetics. My genetic are pretty poor: both my parents are small and slight and I've weighed more than the pair of them combined since my mid 20's. I think I've built a decent physique, but nowhere near that of a champion. Not physique wise at least.


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## duranman (Aug 12, 2015)

Mingster said:


> I'm not saying you can't build a decent physique from average genetics. My genetic are pretty poor: both my parents are small and slight and I've weighed more than the pair of them combined since my mid 20's. I think I've built a decent physique, but nowhere near that of a champion. Not physique wise at least.


Looks pretty good to me mate


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## essexboy (Sep 7, 2008)

duranman said:


> I believe anyone can attain a great physique with the right single mindedness. If you believe you're not 'genetically gifted', don't worry about it, just want it more. But agree don't even THINK about steroids if you haven't already attained a physique better than 99% of the population.


That as Mike Mentzer Once put it is "Schwarzeneggerian" thinking at its most ridiculous.No matter how much belief, dedication inspiration thats you extoll,If you dont have the right genes you will not suceed.No more that if I tutor an aspiring guitarist, and tell them that if they practice enough they will be able to play like SRV, Hendrix etc.


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## averagejoe95 (Apr 13, 2015)

banzi said:


> yes, 1996


very impressive.


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## RUDESTEW (Mar 28, 2015)

Even chasing a dream will get you a lot further , [email protected]@k genetics lets give it a go!!!!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-3323106/Bodybuilder-syndrome-competes-competition-inside-video-captures-confident-performance-crowd.html

this guy rocks


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## essexboy (Sep 7, 2008)

duranman said:


> And what of the metamorph?...





duranman said:


> And what of the metamorph?...


Sorry my mistake, that should have read Mesomorph.


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## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

RUDESTEW said:


> Even chasing a dream will get you a lot further , [email protected]@k genetics lets give it a go!!!!
> 
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-3323106/Bodybuilder-syndrome-competes-competition-inside-video-captures-confident-performance-crowd.html
> 
> this guy rocks


why would you think someone with Downs cant build muscle and lose fat?


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## dannythinx (Oct 4, 2014)

I agree 100%. There is not one person in my entire family who has anywhere near a muscular physique. I'm naturally fat/skinny I know I cannot get anywhere near say a 1996 banzi physique. But I keep going anyway as it seems to be a habit that I can't drop


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## duranman (Aug 12, 2015)

essexboy said:


> Sorry my mistake, that should have read Mesomorph.


And my apologies, my genetics mean I need reading glasses!

It's an interesting thing re the three stereo typical body types as most of us are a fusion of two. The so called ideal Mesomorph is of average height, with relatively long legs, broad shoulders, narrow hips and naturally muscular. Those are guys I'm assuming are most likely to be Mr Olympia before all the work?...


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## duranman (Aug 12, 2015)

averagejoe95 said:


> very impressive.


Looks like Bob Paris's little brother


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## Jordan08 (Feb 17, 2014)

How to know whether i have got good genes?

I am confused even more now on taking AAS route or not :confused1:


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## zyphy (Jun 23, 2014)

banzi said:


> Enough mt2 will do it mate.


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## averagejoe95 (Apr 13, 2015)

duranman said:


> Looks like Bob Paris's little brother


id even say Bob Paris himself tbh.


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## toxyuk (Sep 8, 2015)

banzi said:


> Genetics
> 
> What I Have Learned in over 30 Years of on and off Use & Lifting


that goimg to the gym aint gonna fix your ugly face lols


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## duranman (Aug 12, 2015)

averagejoe95 said:


> id even say Bob Paris himself tbh.





averagejoe95 said:


> id even say Bob Paris himself tbh.


Too short


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## toxyuk (Sep 8, 2015)

that my balls used to be alot bigger.


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## RUDESTEW (Mar 28, 2015)

banzi said:


> why would you think someone with Downs cant build muscle and lose fat?


Anyone could build muscle and lose a bit of bully Genetically gifted or not , i was leaning towards mindset and giving it a go .


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## toxyuk (Sep 8, 2015)

What I Have Learned in over 30 Years of on and off Use & Lifting -banzi

or that you have just realised your sexual preference is towards spending your free time among buff men?

good to finally come out tell everyone?


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## BLUE(UK) (Jan 9, 2008)

banzi said:


> yes, 1996


haha.


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## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

toxyuk said:


> What I Have Learned in over 30 Years of on and off Use & Lifting -banzi
> 
> or that you have just realised your sexual preference is towards spending your free time among buff men?
> 
> good to finally come out tell everyone?


I like buff men, maybe thats why we clash.



BLUE(UK) said:


> haha.


what you laughing at?


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## BLUE(UK) (Jan 9, 2008)

banzi said:


> what you laughing at?


You in 1996.


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## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

BLUE(UK) said:


> You in 1996.
> 
> View attachment 118180


lol, he means the pic in my banner not my avi


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## benji666 (Apr 18, 2015)

banzi said:


> My first course was 16mgs a day of Winstrol tabs (Zambon), I put about 20lbs on in 10 weeks, dropped about 14lbs when I came off.
> 
> I actually tapered up and down.


The old boy in my gym told me that in his day 30 mg dbol a day was seen as a large dose to be tapered up to.I have read about people going up to 100 mg a day of dbol.

. I can only think the difference was,back then they get hold of actual pharma quality stuff,whereas these days it tends to be under dosed UGL stuff. He did tell me,that him and his friends went to a particular local doctor who they could buy test and oral gear from and the nurse in the surgery would actually do the injection which according to her was the best part of her week injecting the local bodybuilders and strongmen. . That was completely legal in the UK back then,what else was handy was the doctor would keep an eye on their general health during cycles ,without the problem with medical records . Pity you can't do that anymore.


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## BLUE(UK) (Jan 9, 2008)

banzi said:


> lol, he means the pic in my banner not my avi


Oops!!

I thought you were pulling his leg, my apologies.

Agree with you on the genetics thing.


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## toxyuk (Sep 8, 2015)

banzi said:


> I like buff men, maybe thats why we clash.


lols )) gave you a like for that m8))))))


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## nitrogen (Oct 25, 2007)

People with downs syndrome can be very dedicated as they don't see obstacles and negativity. They can be physically strong.

Well done to him.


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## essexboy (Sep 7, 2008)

duranman said:


> And my apologies, my genetics mean I need reading glasses!
> 
> It's an interesting thing re the three stereo typical body types as most of us are a fusion of two. The so called ideal Mesomorph is of average height, with relatively long legs, broad shoulders, narrow hips and naturally muscular. Those are guys I'm assuming are most likely to be Mr Olympia before all the work?...


Very few are truly one specific body type.Mike Mentzer, springs to mind as pure Meso.We are variations to some degree.A natural propensity to build muscle,Wide shoulders, narrow hips.

The most important genetic attribute is long muscle bellies.From origin to insertion.A muscle will never be able to be wider than it is long,as it wouldnt be able to contract.To appear thick, it

has to insert right into the joint, with likely short ligaments.The most extreme example of this was Sergio Olivia.His bicep inserted virtually into his forearm.Thus making a full bicep contraction past 45(or is it 90) degrees impossible.


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## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

If you train for ten years assisted and then come off, after a year you will be at the level you would have been if you had trained for 10 years unassisted.


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## Pancake' (Aug 30, 2012)

essexboy said:


> Arthur Jones of Nautilus fame, said something very similar, in his book My first 50 years in the Iron game.I quote." A true Mesomorph will after 6 months of training look like hes spent 10 years in the gym.*A true ectomorph whos been training 10 years, will look like hes spent 6 months in the gym"*
> 
> "After 50 years of designing machines, training world class bodybuilders, and earning a billion dollars in the process,Ive come to the conclusion that for the average trainee, a combination of squats, chins and dips, will build as much muscle as they are ever going to get"


Really?

The genetics card is overplayed, truth be told, if you're a true Ectomorph, limitations are slashed and you will never be a mass monster without drugs. I'd say maximum potential for most Ectomorphs, would be 200+lbs off season & a lean 160 - 180 lbs. were as Mesomorph etc, can obviously pack & carry a lot more Muscle. look at this guys genetics, he wasn't genetically blessed at all? started lifting around 100 - 120 lbs and now has 1 of the best physiques in the game. 



 look what he achieved in 2 years. look at Dorian prior to lifting? Ectomorph? I believe unless you're really genetically fcuked and I mean NBA player height and light, than, their is no reason anyone can't get their eventually and build a top physique? The food, The consistent hard work & lots of steroid cycles under one's belt, can grow. their definitely has to be something ''Extraordinary'' about one though.


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## Dark sim (May 18, 2013)

I think a lot of the guys coming out of the middle east will disagree with you Banzi. Drugs can do an awful lot to a physique if you use enough of them.


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## FuqOutDaWhey (Apr 29, 2015)

Starz said:


> Really?
> 
> The genetics card is overplayed, truth be told, if you're a true Ectomorph, limitations are slashed and you will never be a mass monster without drugs. I'd say maximum potential for most Ectomorphs, would be 200+lbs off season & a lean 160 - 180 lbs. were as Mesomorph etc, can obviously pack & carry a lot more Muscle. look at this guys genetics, he wasn't genetically blessed at all? started lifting around 100 - 120 lbs and now has 1 of the best physiques in the game.
> 
> ...


A light starting weight isn't an indicator of bad genetics imo


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## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

Dark sim said:


> I think a lot of the guys coming out of the middle east will disagree with you Banzi. Drugs can do an awful lot to a physique if you use enough of them.


and when you come off it all disappears.

Daz Ball less than two months after tearing his bicep










Mohamed mustaffa


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## Pancake' (Aug 30, 2012)

FuqOutDaWhey said:


> A light starting weight isn't an indicator of bad genetics imo


Why isn't it? someone tiny, will have to drag their physique from such starting point? but, when they do, they could show great muscle bellies, Insertions etc. what do you think indicates bad genetics then?


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## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

Starz said:


> Why isn't it? someone tiny, will have to drag their physique from such starting point? but, when they do, they could show great muscle bellies, Insertions etc. *what do you think indicates bad genetics then?*


a poor response to training and drugs.


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## Pancake' (Aug 30, 2012)

banzi said:


> a poor response to training and drugs.


Yeah, you're right, but I meant more in terms of e.g Frame/skeletal structure?


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## Dark sim (May 18, 2013)

banzi said:


> and when you come off it all disappears.
> 
> Daz Ball less than two months after tearing his bicep
> 
> ...


Of course it does at that level.

Fact is AAS can change physiques beyond what genetics can. It is just how responsive you are to them determines how much or how little you need to use.


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## Tomahawk (Dec 24, 2014)

banzi said:


> Eat what you like and lift, if it's going to happen you will make gains regardless.
> 
> If you cant make improvements eating a normal western diet and lifting 3/4 days a week, no amount of drugs is going to make you Mr Universe.


But not everybody wants to be Mr. Universe. I'd say most gym-goers would be happy to achieve a physique that is better than 99.9% of the population.


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## Jordan08 (Feb 17, 2014)

> lol, he means the pic in my banner not my avi


In your avi, you look closer to Bob paris


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## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

Jatin Bhatia said:


> In your avi, you look closer to Bob paris


it is Bob Paris


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## mal (Dec 31, 2009)

Tomahawk said:


> But not everybody wants to be Mr. Universe. I'd say most gym-goers would be happy to achieve a physique that is better than *99.9% of the population*.


based on current stats and obesity rates in the UK that shouldn't be to difficult ,ide aim a tad higher tbh.


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## MRSTRONG (Apr 18, 2009)

banzi said:


> and when you come off it all disappears.
> 
> Daz Ball less than two months after tearing his bicep


daz ball has also had kidney or liver issues and lost his size from that not from tearing his bicep


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## Jordan08 (Feb 17, 2014)

> it is Bob Paris


Let's spread the rumor then, Banzi is Bob Paris . I hope you won't mind and people will listen to your advice without refuting it


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## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

MRSTRONG said:


> daz ball has also had kidney or liver issues and lost his size from that not from tearing his bicep


that came a while after that photo, that drop in size was simply stopping training and drugs


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## Skye666 (Apr 13, 2013)

Tomahawk said:


> But not everybody wants to be Mr. Universe. I'd say most gym-goers would be happy to achieve a physique that is better than 99.9% of the population.


maybe thats the point....most in here are on gear but not achieving as great a physique as 99% of the population...


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## MRSTRONG (Apr 18, 2009)

banzi said:


> that came a while after that photo, that drop in size was simply stopping training and drugs


i know he was on a lot of drugs , just shows how much drugs can push boundaries


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## Fluke82 (Sep 10, 2015)

banzi said:


> that came a while after that photo, that drop in size was *simply stopping training* and drugs


Yes...if you stopped training you will deplete at any level.

Obv at the top when huge amounts are used the drop is significantly more noticeable but to an average steroid/gym user, if they stopped and recovered ok and continued to train and eat well, they would not go downhill as fast as that.


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## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

Drogon said:


> Yes...if you stopped training you will deplete at any level.
> 
> Obv at the top when huge amounts are used the drop is significantly more noticeable but to an average steroid/gym user, if they stopped and recovered ok and continued to train and eat well, they would not go downhill as fast as that.


you go back to what you would have achieved natty.


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## Dark sim (May 18, 2013)

Skye666 said:


> maybe thats the point....most in here are on gear but not achieving as great a physique as 99% of the population...


Have you worded that wrong? 99% of population don't have great physiques, they LLS. It is the 1% everyone wants to look like.


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## Skye666 (Apr 13, 2013)

Dark sim said:


> Have you worded that wrong? 99% of population don't have great physiques, they LLS. It is the 1% everyone wants to look like.


lol yes ...a greater / better physique not as great ...fingers don't work in the mornings.


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## Dark sim (May 18, 2013)

Skye666 said:


> lol yes ...a greater / better physique not as great ...fingers don't work in the mornings.


You got 2 likes lol


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## Gmags (Nov 16, 2015)

If one was to have considerably bad genetics. Struggled adding muscle, wasn't very lean, small chest, not very strong, but held a little more muscle than the average person, would you advise to just try and cut and be happy with what you have and get lean?

I am currently 6ft 1 and 13 stone 12 and would guess around 20% body fat. I have struggled to gain muscle, but am considering trying to shift some fat and see what I look like lean and go from there.

If I uploaded photos everyone would say you need to bulk you need to bulk, but I am not happy with the fat gains.


----------



## Fluke82 (Sep 10, 2015)

banzi said:


> you go back to what you would have achieved natty.


Most probably.

But if you train hard adn eat right, you will go back to your natty genetic limit, which may have taken you many many more years to reach as a ever natural (if at all)...



Skye666 said:


> lol yes ...a greater / better physique not as great ...*fingers don't work in the mornings.*


Good job mine do, maybe you should be waking up next to me next time.


----------



## Dark sim (May 18, 2013)

Drogon said:


> Most probably.
> 
> *But if you train hard adn eat right, you will go back to your natty genetic limit, which may have taken you many many more years to reach as a ever natural (if at all)...*
> 
> Good job mine do, maybe you should be waking up next to me next time.


I disagree, If you cannot reach your genetic limit naturally then you couldn't maintain it after AAS.


----------



## Fluke82 (Sep 10, 2015)

Dark sim said:


> I disagree, If you cannot reach your genetic limit naturally then you couldn't maintain it after AAS.


I will assume you mean because "one is likely not too have the knowledge or experience to maintain it without the help of gear etc" which I often see spouted by advocates of people not using gear before reaching such a potential or advising them to lift years after years first.

Where in fact, IMO, one can acquire such knowledge in a very short time-frame in comparison to what it actually takes to reach your natural limit.

I am pretty confident I have enough knowledge to be able to train and eat correctly, whether using PEDs or not, to maintain such a level (natural peak).

Whether i reach/surpass/actually do so is another matter entirely.

Edit - it has also been proven that prolonged AAS use can actually CHANGE your "genetic limit". Which is why you see past users do so well in "natty comps" where "natty" means having used no AAS for say 5 years prior, where they may have been using extensive PEDs for 10 years prior to that 5 year natural period.


----------



## BLUE(UK) (Jan 9, 2008)

Drogon said:


> Most probably.
> 
> But if you train hard adn eat right, you will go back to your natty genetic limit, which may have taken you many many more years to reach as a ever natural (if at all)...


If you don't have the tools to hit it naturally in the first place you'll not maintain it that's for sure.

Also, the psychological side of things will more than likely see one be more negative from the muscle loss than someone who's slowly but surely gained tiny bits let alone the affects of the hormone yoyo on the state of mind.

Those who think they'll maintain their natty limits after coming off long term are in cloud cuckoo land unless they hit their natty limit naturally before using aas.


----------



## Fluke82 (Sep 10, 2015)

BLUE(UK) said:


> If you don't have the tools to hit it naturally in the first place you'll not maintain it that's for sure.
> 
> Also, the psychological side of things will more than likely see one be more negative from the muscle loss than someone who's slowly but surely gained tiny bits let alone the affects of the hormone yoyo on the state of mind.
> 
> Those who think they'll maintain their natty limits after coming off long term are in cloud cuckoo land unless they hit their natty limit naturally before using aas.


See above, lol. Completely addresses your post (despite me typing it prior to seeing yours pal!)


----------



## Dark sim (May 18, 2013)

Drogon said:


> I will assume you mean because "one is likely not too have the knowledge or experience to maintain it without the help of gear etc" which I often see spouted by advocates of people not using gear before reaching such a potential or advising them to lift years after years first.
> 
> Where in fact, IMO, one can acquire such knowledge in a very short time-frame in comparison to what it actually takes to reach your natural limit.
> 
> ...


This so called "genetic limit" I see thrown about is not something we can measure, so it is all bollocks really.


----------



## BLUE(UK) (Jan 9, 2008)

Drogon said:


> See above, lol. Completely addresses your post (despite me typing it prior to seeing yours pal!)


How would one know whether the gains were from AAS use or a good diet/training/genetic protocol unless they've already tried it?

The only way you could possibly know is to come off all AAS and see where you are after 18months. A few months doesn't quite cut it.


----------



## Fluke82 (Sep 10, 2015)

Dark sim said:


> This so called "genetic limit" I see thrown about is not something we can measure, so it is all bollocks really.


agreeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeed



BLUE(UK) said:


> How would one know whether the gains were from AAS use or a good diet/training/genetic protocol unless they've already tried it?
> 
> The only way you could possibly know is to come off all AAS and see where you are after 18months. A few months doesn't quite cut it.


Because a good diet and training is not hard, lol. Incredibly simple.

and as aboveee to clarify, i think genetic limit is BS any ways, who knows what it is.


----------



## BLUE(UK) (Jan 9, 2008)

Drogon said:


> agreeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeed
> 
> Because a good diet and training is not hard, lol. Incredibly simple.
> 
> and as aboveee to clarify, i think genetic limit is BS any ways, who knows what it is.


As it's incredibly simple, why the need to use AAS?

I'm not an AAS basher, just genuinely curious as you appear to have the magic formula.


----------



## Fluke82 (Sep 10, 2015)

BLUE(UK) said:


> As it's incredibly simple, why the need to use AAS?
> 
> I'm not an AAS basher, just genuinely curious* as you appear to have the magic formula. *


Because I want to get to my destination faster, because I want a look/physique that cannot be achieved natural and because I am impatient.

Quite to the contrary, what I am saying is *there is no magic formula. *Just simple, proven advice/principles that rely on the basics of thermodynamics and human physiology


----------



## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

BLUE(UK) said:


> As it's incredibly simple, why the need to use AAS?
> 
> I'm not an AAS basher, just genuinely curious as you appear to have the magic formula.


because you can look great in a year and keep it for ten as opposed to looking average for 10 years and still being in the same place after you eventually come off.


----------



## BLUE(UK) (Jan 9, 2008)

banzi said:


> because you can look great in a year and keep it for ten as opposed to looking average for 10 years and still being in the same place after you eventually come off.


But like I said, how many will realistically look good for the further 10yrs if they come off? This is my whole point, as soon as just about any AAS users stop using, they LLS as you like to say.

The other issue is the laughable one where one will use and then maintain around their genetic limit after coming off AAS.....!!


----------



## Gmags (Nov 16, 2015)

> agreeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeed
> 
> Because a good diet and training is not hard, lol. Incredibly simple.
> 
> and as aboveee to clarify, i think genetic limit is BS any ways, who knows what it is.


You keep changing your mind about genetic limit.

You said above that AAS has been known to change your genetic limit then you are agreeing with someone which contradicts your earlier statement just because they look good and clearly known their stuff.

Make your mind up.


----------



## Fluke82 (Sep 10, 2015)

Gmags said:


> You keep changing your mind about genetic limit.
> 
> You said above that AAS has been known to change your genetic limit then you are agreeing with someone which contradicts your earlier statement ju*st because they look good and clearly known their stuff.*
> 
> Make your mind up.


AAS is known to change your "limit".

I was agreeing with the fact no-one actually knows what it is.

Believe me, i have disagreed a lot with @Dark sim in the past (and agreed with other things).


----------



## Dark sim (May 18, 2013)

Gmags said:


> You keep changing your mind about genetic limit.
> 
> You said above that AAS has been known to change your genetic limit then you are agreeing with someone which contradicts your earlier statement just because they look good and clearly known their stuff.
> 
> Make your mind up.


He is fickle like a female, lifts like one too apparently.


----------



## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

BLUE(UK) said:


> But like I said, how many will realistically look good for the further 10yrs if they come off? This is my whole point, as soon as just about any AAS users stop using, they LLS as you like to say.
> 
> The other issue is the laughable one where one will use and then maintain around their genetic limit after coming off AAS.....!!


No, you misunderstand, you can look great in a year and maintain that look if you use for 10 years, after 10 years you decide to come off you will be no worse off than if you just trained natty for the ten years, except natty you will look distinctly average.


----------



## Skye666 (Apr 13, 2013)

Drogon said:


> Most probably.
> 
> But if you train hard adn eat right, you will go back to your natty genetic limit, which may have taken you many many more years to reach as a ever natural (if at all)...
> 
> Good job mine do, maybe you should be waking up next to me next time.


no


----------



## Fluke82 (Sep 10, 2015)

Dark sim said:


> He is fickle like a female, lifts like one too apparently.


What's your max lifts Rich? Never actually asked.


----------



## Skye666 (Apr 13, 2013)

Dark sim said:


> He is fickle like a female, lifts like one too apparently.


erm...this isn't about gender :tongue:


----------



## Dark sim (May 18, 2013)

Drogon said:


> What's your max lifts Rich? Never actually asked.


Don't really do 1rm.

Bench 140kg x20, 180 x8-10

Shoulder press 140kg x10-12

Dips BW + 100kg x6 (Haven't ever seen anyone do this).

Leg press 750kg x10 (won't ever do it again, as I partially tore my quad 2014 doing this weight). Now I stick to 400-500 for 20-30.

Squat 220kg x10 (not since my torn quad). Squat like a girl now.

Deadlift I don't

BOR - 160kg x10. Can single arm row 80s, probably 90s if you find me some.



Skye666 said:


> erm...this isn't about gender :tongue:


It is when I say it is


----------



## Fluke82 (Sep 10, 2015)

Dark sim said:


> Don't really do 1rm.
> 
> Bench 140kg x20, 180 x8-10
> 
> ...


Sorry...who lifts "like a female"  .

Any reason for not DL - injuries?


----------



## Dark sim (May 18, 2013)

Drogon said:


> Sorry...who lifts "like a female"  .
> 
> Any reason for not DL - injuries?


Me 

Neglected them in my earlier days, always had lower back issues. Now I rack pull instead.


----------



## A1243R (Nov 2, 2014)

Dark sim said:


> *Don't really do 1rm.*
> 
> *Bench 140kg x20, 180 x8-10*
> 
> ...


Basically your weak as fcuk and a midget then yeah


----------



## averagejoe95 (Apr 13, 2015)

Dark sim said:


> Have you worded that wrong? 99% of population don't have great physiques, they LLS. *It is the 1% everyone wants to look like.*


sure its not the rich pianos 5% everyone wants to look like


----------



## essexboy (Sep 7, 2008)

Starz said:


> Really?
> 
> The genetics card is overplayed, truth be told, if you're a true Ectomorph, limitations are slashed and you will never be a mass monster without drugs. I'd say maximum potential for most Ectomorphs, would be 200+lbs off season & a lean 160 - 180 lbs. were as Mesomorph etc, can obviously pack & carry a lot more Muscle. look at this guys genetics, he wasn't genetically blessed at all? started lifting around 100 - 120 lbs and now has 1 of the best physiques in the game.
> 
> ...


Your "starting point" can be deceptive.The statement is a generalisation, and not a definitive.Yes, the "extraordinary" is genes.Its not fairy dust.


----------



## BLUE(UK) (Jan 9, 2008)

banzi said:


> No, you misunderstand, you can look great in a year and maintain that look if you use for 10 years, after 10 years you decide to come off you will be no worse off than if you just trained natty for the ten years, except natty you will look distinctly average.


I agree and understood the part you say above although I must say that I've seen plenty of AAS users who look 'average' at best so imo natty or no natty can look average for 10yrs.


----------



## BLUE(UK) (Jan 9, 2008)

Dark sim said:


> Don't really do 1rm.
> 
> Bench 140kg x20, 180 x8-10
> 
> ...


Good lifts there.

I was always after a 140kg OHP but I've never hit it,much to my disappointment.

Those dips are good, I used to do +60 but that always felt close to my max.

How much do you lift on lying tricep extensions?


----------



## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

BLUE(UK) said:


> I agree and understood the part you say above although I must say that I've seen plenty of AAS users who look 'average' at best so imo natty or no natty can look average for 10yrs.


as said earlier, it all depends on your genetic response to drugs.


----------



## IDntEvenLiftCuz (Feb 21, 2015)

Dark sim said:


> Don't really do 1rm.
> 
> Bench 140kg x20, 180 x8-10
> 
> ...


what a beast, f**k. You train in powerlifting? Impressive all around.


----------



## ellisrimmer (Sep 9, 2012)

how can I make my lats bigger banzi


----------



## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

ellisrimmer said:


> how can I make my lats bigger banzi


make your chest and arms smaller


----------



## A1243R (Nov 2, 2014)

IDntEvenLiftCuz said:


> what a beast, f**k. You train in powerlifting? Impressive all around.


Does he look like a power lifter :lol: Hes a bodybuilder aiming for super heavies i think


----------



## Info Junkie (Nov 22, 2013)

A1243R said:


> Does he look like a power lifter :lol: Hes a bodybuilder aiming for super heavies i think


A lot of powerlifter these days are impressive , while he may not be a powerlifter lifting that heavy is defo "power" lifting haha


----------



## Dark sim (May 18, 2013)

BLUE(UK) said:


> Good lifts there.
> 
> I was always after a 140kg OHP but I've never hit it,much to my disappointment.
> 
> ...


Dunno on that one. They have agitated my elbows in the past. Currently doing them 6x8 strict at 60kg, could crank out 80-90 I reckon.


----------



## Dark sim (May 18, 2013)

IDntEvenLiftCuz said:


> what a beast, f**k. You train in powerlifting? Impressive all around.


No. I have been lifting 17+ years consistently. And thank you.


----------



## essexboy (Sep 7, 2008)

benji666 said:


> The old boy in my gym told me that in his day 30 mg dbol a day was seen as a large dose to be tapered up to.I have read about people going up to 100 mg a day of dbol.
> 
> . I can only think the difference was,back then they get hold of actual pharma quality stuff,whereas these days it tends to be under dosed UGL stuff. He did tell me,that him and his friends went to a particular local doctor who they could buy test and oral gear from and the nurse in the surgery would actually do the injection which according to her was the best part of her week injecting the local bodybuilders and strongmen. . That was completely legal in the UK back then,what else was handy was the doctor would keep an eye on their general health during cycles ,without the problem with medical records . Pity you can't do that anymore.


Yup.Start at 5 mg daily, work up to 30mg over 3 weeks, then taper off same way.Occasionally used with a shot of deca once a fortnight.Dinabol came in little tubs.Made by Ciba.Think they were white.Most whom I knew, used the same doctor in Forest Gate/Manor Park, convienently near to Wag Bennetts gym.Give he a tenner and he would write prescriptions all day.


----------



## IDntEvenLiftCuz (Feb 21, 2015)

A1243R said:


> Does he look like a power lifter :lol: Hes a bodybuilder aiming for super heavies i think


Plenty of powerlifters have great physiques, don't be one of those people that stereotype they're all fat 30% BF fatboys.


----------



## Jordan08 (Feb 17, 2014)

> *Don't really do 1rm.*
> 
> *Bench 140kg x20, 180 x8-10*
> 
> ...


It's because of gym members like you who takes all the gym plates and force others for starting threads on taking pictures of fit chicks in gym at UKM.


----------



## Dark sim (May 18, 2013)

Jatin Bhatia said:


> It's because of gym members like you who takes all the gym plates and force others for starting threads on taking pictures of fit chicks in gym at UKM.


I've been lucky in a sense, all my gyms ever have never had many fit chicks in. So work got done


----------



## essexboy (Sep 7, 2008)

Gmags said:


> If one was to have considerably bad genetics. Struggled adding muscle, wasn't very lean, small chest, not very strong, but held a little more muscle than the average person, *would you advise to just try and cut and be happy with what you have and get lean?*
> 
> I am currently 6ft 1 and 13 stone 12 and would guess around 20% body fat. I have struggled to gain muscle, but am considering trying to shift some fat and see what I look like lean and go from there.
> 
> If I uploaded photos everyone would say you need to bulk you need to bulk, but I am not happy with the fat gains.


A realistic outlook,is essential to prevent years of frustration.Plus, the time commitment, could be used pursuing other activities that will glean far more satisfaction.I spent 10 years, trying to

combat "neutral" genes.Once you finally accept your limitations, a huge veil is lifted, and actually makes lifting more enjoyable, and rewarding.Sure goals are great, but inevitably comparing

individual progress to others,which is usually how we gauge our own results, generally ends in heartache.


----------



## MRSTRONG (Apr 18, 2009)

Dark sim said:


> Don't really do 1rm.
> 
> Bench 140kg x20, 180 x8-10
> 
> ...


good lifts and for someone thats trained 17 years as a natty those are what you`d expect to see .

shame more people on here didnt just shut the fcuk up and put some effort in like you have .


----------



## Dark sim (May 18, 2013)

MRSTRONG said:


> good lifts and for someone thats trained 17 years as a natty those are what you`d expect to see .
> 
> shame more people on here didnt just shut the fcuk up and put some effort in like you have .


Cheers. Been on for just over 2 years now though.

Too many are quick to say it's not working.


----------



## Gmags (Nov 16, 2015)

> A realistic outlook,is essential to prevent years of frustration.Plus, the time commitment, could be used pursuing other activities that will glean far more satisfaction.I spent 10 years, trying to
> 
> combat "neutral" genes.Once you finally accept your limitations, a huge veil is lifted, and actually makes lifting more enjoyable, and rewarding.Sure goals are great, but inevitably comparing
> 
> individual progress to others,which is usually how we gauge our own results, generally ends in heartache.


I have never had a lean look, always sat around 17-22% body fat I would say. I hold a little more muscle than the average person so wouldn;t say I am skinny but not really a fan of some of the fat gains I have made whilst trying to bulk. Rather than a V shape look my hips come back out a little bit, also holding fat on chest area and around belly button.

If I manage to be strict with diet (which I struggle) and do cardio (bike or crosstrainer only) and get lean I can either decide to maintain the lean look or add lean muscle. Being lean with my current muscle mass is going to be a lot better than I look now I don't feel like I will feel skinny.

How do you go about maintaining lifts and not losing muscle mass whilst trying to cut? I am going to be eating less, doing more cardio and therefore lifting less. Planning my workouts to be 30 mins cardio and 30 mins lifting.

Is creatine advisable? Or to just be 300 cals under maintenance for a period of time?

Is 1-2 pounds per week an ideal challenge? Could do with some examples of bodyfat % to show what I am aiming for,


----------



## Gmags (Nov 16, 2015)

> Cheers. Been on for just over 2 years now though.
> 
> Too many are quick to say it's not working.


15 years natty and 2 years on?

Do you have comparisons for your lifts, size and BF %?

Be interested to see how things have changed.


----------



## Dark sim (May 18, 2013)

Gmags said:


> 15 years natty and 2 years on?
> 
> Do you have comparisons for your lifts, size and BF %?
> 
> Be interested to see how things have changed.


Correct.

Was 19 1/2 natty around 15-18%. Now 21st 7lbs same bf.

http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/topic/154807-ukms-natty-physiques/?page=15#comment-3591902

Natty lifts were

Bench 140 10-12

Squat 180 10

Leg press 550 10

Shoulder press 100 maybe more? 10

BOR 140 8


----------



## essexboy (Sep 7, 2008)

Gmags said:


> I have never had a lean look, always sat around 17-22% body fat I would say. I hold a little more muscle than the average person so wouldn;t say I am skinny but not really a fan of some of the fat gains I have made whilst trying to bulk. Rather than a V shape look my hips come back out a little bit, also holding fat on chest area and around belly button.
> 
> If I manage to be strict with diet (which I struggle) and do cardio (bike or crosstrainer only) and get lean I can either decide to maintain the lean look or add lean muscle. Being lean with my current muscle mass is going to be a lot better than I look now I don't feel like I will feel skinny.
> 
> ...


My recommendations to lose fat, and gain strength, would be to follow a low carb high fat,moderate protein diet.Interspersed with fasting,.Train 2/3 times a week,on a whole body routine using basic movements.Press, squats chins dips.A couple of all out "gun to head" sets of each.

Forget "cardio" All it does is create more metabolic "panic" Food reduction is the effecient route to fat loss.

Whoever told you you cant gain on a caloric restricted diet, is incorrect.I doubled my Duo squat weight over 6 months, whilst eating less than 1800 calories daily.


----------



## Gmags (Nov 16, 2015)

> My recommendations to lose fat, and gain strength, would be to follow a low carb high fat,moderate protein diet.Interspersed with fasting,.Train 2/3 times a week,on a whole body routine using basic movements.Press, squats chins dips.A couple of all out "gun to head" sets of each.
> 
> *Forget "cardio" All it does is create more metabolic "panic" Food reduction is the effecient route to fat loss.*
> 
> Whoever told you you cant gain on a caloric restricted diet, is incorrect.I doubled my Duo squat weight over 6 months, whilst eating less than 1800 calories daily.


Thank you for the reply.

Can you explain more into this please?

How would 30 mins on a bike or crosstrainer 3 x per week be less beneficial than say a couple of extra sets and reps doing X exercise?


----------



## essexboy (Sep 7, 2008)

Gmags said:


> Thank you for the reply.
> 
> Can you explain more into this please?
> 
> How would 30 mins on a bike or crosstrainer 3 x per week be less beneficial than say a couple of extra sets and reps doing X exercise?


Exercise is stress.Diet restriction can also cause the body to enter a starvation mode, where it works more efficiently , to conserve energy.If at the same time, you are sending signals that your

exercise levels are increasing too, this can further impede fat loss.You are far better introducing plain old walking into your schedule.


----------



## Gmags (Nov 16, 2015)

> Exercise is stress.Diet restriction can also cause the body to enter a starvation mode, where it works more efficiently , to conserve energy.If at the same time, you are sending signals that your
> 
> exercise levels are increasing too, this can further impede fat loss.You are far better introducing plain old walking into your schedule.


Ok that makes sense.

So increased cardio and decreased calories could enter into starvation mode whereby the body rather than burning fat will actually look to store?

So sticking with the same/similar routine my body is used to and just decreasing calories gradually is more effective?


----------



## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

Gmags said:


> Ok that makes sense.
> 
> So increased cardio and decreased calories could enter into starvation mode whereby the body rather than burning fat will actually look to store?
> 
> So sticking with the same/similar routine my body is used to and just decreasing calories gradually is more effective?


cardio isn't an efficient method to lose body fat, the effort and time expenditure don't add up.

an hour on a stationary bike to burn off a KitKat. :confused1:


----------



## Dark sim (May 18, 2013)

essexboy said:


> Exercise is stress.Diet restriction can also cause the body to enter a starvation mode, where it works more efficiently , to conserve energy.If at the same time, you are sending signals that your
> 
> exercise levels are increasing too, this can further impede fat loss.You are far better introducing plain old walking into your schedule.


I can post multiple studies negating starvation mode, metabolic adaption maybe, starvation mode no.


----------



## Gmags (Nov 16, 2015)

> cardio isn't an efficient method to lose body fat, the effort and time expenditure don't add up.
> 
> an hour on a stationary bike to burn off a KitKat. :confused1:


I was on the bike the other day and the machine was telling me 600 calories per hour.

What are the equivalent calories burned during weight bearing exercises?


----------



## superpube (Feb 18, 2015)

Gmags said:


> I was on the bike the other day and the machine was telling me 600 calories per hour.
> 
> What are the equivalent calories burned during weight bearing exercises?


you don't burn calories during the hour or so your lifting weights, you burn them in the days afterwards when they're repairing


----------



## Frandeman (Mar 24, 2014)

superpube said:


> you don't burn calories during the hour or so your lifting weights, you burn them in the days afterwards when they're repairing


Don't think so Mrs

You burn calories while you train

and even after when you finish your session and go for bath


----------



## Dark sim (May 18, 2013)

superpube said:


> you don't burn calories during the hour or so your lifting weights, you burn them in the days afterwards when they're repairing


We are burning calories 24/7. Any form of activity requires extra energy (kcals) expenditure, which is expended as we need it.

Think you are getting confused with HIIT, where there is evidence of an after burn effect?


----------



## toxyuk (Sep 8, 2015)

Dark sim said:


> We are burning calories 24/7. Any form of activity requires extra energy (kcals) expenditure, which is expended as we need it.
> 
> Think you are getting confused with HIIT, where there is evidence of an* after burn effect*?


quite mike chang might be listening )))


----------



## superpube (Feb 18, 2015)

opticalillusion said:


> No, *YOU, *don't burn calories whilst lifting weights because you still haven't graduated from the pink ones in the pansy corner.
> 
> Don't tell anyone I'm still in there too....


I only train in there so I can perv on you xx



Frandeman said:


> Don't think so Mrs
> 
> You burn calories while you train
> 
> and even after when you finish your session and go for bath


I shower. Is this why I'm fat?


----------



## superpube (Feb 18, 2015)

Dark sim said:


> We are burning calories 24/7. Any form of activity requires extra energy (kcals) expenditure, which is expended as we need it.
> 
> Think you are getting confused with HIIT, where there is evidence of an after burn effect?


I'm often confused.

f**k, I think I've actually learnt something from ukm today. Thanks nark sim


----------



## Fluke82 (Sep 10, 2015)

A calorie deficit dictates your weight loss.

Whether you get this through cardio, more volume, eating less, is largely irrelevant (unless you are going to extremes).

Just do whatever is easier for you.


----------



## Fluke82 (Sep 10, 2015)

Dark sim said:


> We are burning calories 24/7. Any form of activity requires extra energy (kcals) expenditure, which is expended as we need it.
> 
> Think you are getting confused with HIIT, where there is evidence of an after burn effect?


I remember debating with you many moons ago about male/female and you stated categorically that you do need to train a female different, is a completely different kettle of fish etc etc. See below. Any comments? (I'm like an elephant - never forget)  .

Gender Differences in Training

Do Men and Women need to train differently for optimal results? Let's delve into the science and subtleties, and investigate this intriguing topic in greater detail.

Muscle Fiber Characteristics - (Miller et al, 1992)

• The female group voluntary strength in knee extension was 62% and 69% of the male 1RM and MVC. 
• Positive correlations between 1RM strength and CSA were found.
• Males showed more favourable CSA than females. 
• Gender differences were more pronounced in the upper limbs.
• Hypothesized that the strength difference between genders is largely attributable to cross sectional area.

On a physiological level, how does this impact the way a female or male should train? It doesn't, really. However there are other factors at play here that need to be analyzed.

Body Composition

• The minimum quantity of fat associated with good health is substantially higher in females than males (Katch et al, 1980)
• Women demonstrate lower metabolic rates than men (Westerherp, 1999)
• It's likely that this is spurred on by hormonal differences (Shephard, 2000)

Biomechanics

• Women have larger Q-Angles because they are shorter than men (Grelsamer, 2005). 
• Increased Q-Angle values do not correlate well with patellar pain (Post, 1999; Witvrouw et al, 2014). 
• Active females demonstrate an increased risk for lower extremity musculoskeletal injuries than equivalently trained male counterparts (Granata, 2002). 
• This gender bias towards higher musculoskeltal injuries in females has also been observed in the upper extremities (Treaster, 2011). 
• Furthermore, females demonstrate less leg stiffness than male counterparts (Granata, 2002).

Menstrual Cycle

• DiBrezo (1991), Janse de Jong (2003), Shepard (2000) indicate that exercise performance is unaffected for strength and endurance during different phases of the menstrual cycle.
• Joint laxity is impacted during different phases of the menstrual cycle (Park et al, 2009).
• Female athletes may be at a higher risk of injury during the 3rd and 4th phases of the menstrual cycle (Petscher, 2004).

In conclusion, we advise that females take precaution when training during the 3rd and 4th phases of the menstrual cycle. Training should be a priority during all times in any regard. We also advise that females are vigilant about the pitfalls of inadequate energy intake and it's impact on long-term health. For the purposes of performance, evidence does not suggest that there is a need to modify training according to the menstrual cycle (Janse de Jong, 2003). Aside from differences in anthropometry and cross sectional area, it is reasonable for women to expect similar training protocols to their male counterparts.


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## toxyuk (Sep 8, 2015)

i need to get my diet in order im a lost cause at the moment  were to start ?


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## Dark sim (May 18, 2013)

Drogon said:


> I remember debating with you many moons ago about male/female and you stated categorically that you do need to train a female different, is a completely different kettle of fish etc etc. See below. Any comments? (I'm like an elephant - never forget)  .
> 
> Gender Differences in Training
> 
> ...


No time to read. What is it saying?

Girls can handle much higher volume on legs especially.


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## toxyuk (Sep 8, 2015)

opticalillusion said:


> Were you confused the day you got married to a woman too? I sure was.
> 
> Thoroughly disappointed also


and that never changes trust me. damn women snakes and apples........


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## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

Drogon said:


> I remember debating with you many moons ago about male/female and you stated categorically *that you do need to train a female different, is a completely different kettle of fish etc etc. See below. Any comments? (I'm like an elephant - never forget)*  .
> 
> Gender Differences in Training
> 
> ...


the above is why PT get to charge so much.

Its also a a shame you didn't remember you were wrong, that information says there isn't a difference.


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## Gmags (Nov 16, 2015)

> I did an hr spin class and was goin he'll for leather and only burned 350 lol. Was wearing a heart rate monitor.
> 
> Better off doing exercise that you are carrying your full body weight.


For what reason are you doing this spin class then?

Maybe the calculations on the screen were wrong.

Cannot do jogging/treadmill because of knee. Maybe going to try the cross trainer?


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## Fluke82 (Sep 10, 2015)

Some interesting points, for when you have second.

But focusing on your leg volume point...

a) women have larger Q-Angles which, in summary demonstrated an increased risk for lower extremity musculoskeletal injuries.

b ) females demonstrate less leg stiffness than males (I am not sure what they actually mean by "stiffness").

This may be a negative in advocating such a higher lower body work/volume for women in comparison to men and something to consider.

Edit - the breakdown from the study for Stiffness:

The term stiffness describes the force response that results from and resists mechanical stretch. Stability requires active muscle stiffness (Duan, Allen, & Sun, 1997; Wagner & Blickhan, 1999) and may ultimately influence musculoskeletal injury (McGill, 2001). However, the contribution of gender differences in stiffness properties to the increased ACL injury rates observed in women has been largely overlooked. During controlled open-chain measurements of the isolated in vivo knee, women demonstrate less active muscle stiffness than men do (Blackburn, Riemann, Padua, & Guskiewicz, 2004; Granata, Wilson, & Padua, 2002).Granata, Padua, and Wilson (2002) observed similar findings during closed-chain, functional tasks such as two-legged hopping. Reduced stiffness properties in women may result in decreased stability and may potentially influence their elevated risk of ACL injury.


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## 2004mark (Oct 26, 2013)

MissMartinez said:


> I did an hr spin class and was goin he'll for leather and only burned 350 lol. Was wearing a heart rate monitor.
> 
> Better off doing exercise that you are carrying your full body weight.


I don't think he meant he kept that pace up for an hour though (although it is achievable). A sprint cyclist can produce 1500 watts for a relevantly short period. That about the equivalent of 1300 calories per hour.


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## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

Quote said:


> For the purposes of performance, evidence does not suggest that there is a need to modify training according to the menstrual cycle (Janse de Jong, 2003). Aside from differences in anthropometry and cross sectional area, it is reasonable for women to expect similar training protocols to their male counterparts.


it doesn't matter

@‌Drogon


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## Gmags (Nov 16, 2015)

> I don't think he meant he kept that pace up for an hour though (although it is achievable). A sprint cyclist can produce 1500 watts for a relevantly short period. That about the equivalent of 1300 calories per hour.


I did 20 minutes on the bike and it was saying at the current speed and difficulty it was 600 calories per hour. So did I burn 200?


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## FuqOutDaWhey (Apr 29, 2015)

Gmags said:


> I did 20 minutes on the bike and it was saying at the current speed and difficulty it was 600 calories per hour. So did I burn 200?


I'd take any number from them with a pinch of salt tbh


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## 2004mark (Oct 26, 2013)

Gmags said:


> I did 20 minutes on the bike and it was saying at the current speed and difficulty it was 600 calories per hour. So did I burn 200?


If that was the average for your workout then yeah


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## Jordan08 (Feb 17, 2014)

> I can post multiple studies negating starvation mode, metabolic adaption maybe, starvation mode no.


I Read somewhere that in order to lose fat, around 20% caloric deficit should come from cardio and rest from food. Though, i personally rely heavily on cardio.


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## Jordan08 (Feb 17, 2014)

> I did 20 minutes on the bike and it was saying at the current speed and difficulty it was 600 calories per hour. So did I burn 200?


How much speed or RPM?


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## Dark sim (May 18, 2013)

Jatin Bhatia said:


> I Read somewhere that in order to lose fat, around 20% caloric deficit should come from cardio and rest from food. Though, i personally rely heavily on cardio.


Not sure mate. @banzi is one for not doing much cardio, and just using calorie restriction for fat loss. Some people need to do more cardio to allow the extra food they crave.


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## Jordan08 (Feb 17, 2014)

> Not sure mate. @banzi is one for not doing much cardio, and just using calorie restriction for fat loss.* Some people need to do more cardio to allow the extra food they crave*.


I think it was from some Norton's video on youtube. Don't remember exactly.

I belong to this group as well.


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## 2004mark (Oct 26, 2013)

Jatin Bhatia said:


> How much speed or RPM?


The figure would be irrelevant unless you knew the resistance.


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## Jordan08 (Feb 17, 2014)

> The figure would be irrelevant unless you knew the resistance.


My bad. You are correct mate


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## Fluke82 (Sep 10, 2015)

banzi said:


> it doesn't matter
> 
> @‌Drogon


yes that's what my original argument was to @Dark sim

that male/female training is pretty much the same, same training principles, same diet prnciples etc.its about the Individual not gender.

he disagreed (for example that women should/can train much higher volume on legs) or something along those lines, just thought it was interesting.


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## Dark sim (May 18, 2013)

Drogon said:


> yes that's what my original argument was to @Dark sim
> 
> that male/female training is pretty much the same, same training principles, same diet prnciples etc.its about the Individual not gender.
> 
> he disagreed (*for example that women should/can train much higher volume on legs*) or something along those lines, just thought it was interesting.


I stand by that, from what I've seen.


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## Fluke82 (Sep 10, 2015)

Ya I know thatttt, I just came across that text/article/studies etc and thought of you (how cute)


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## Dark sim (May 18, 2013)

Drogon said:


> Ya I know thatttt, I just came across that text/article/studies etc and thought of you (how cute)


<3


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## Dark sim (May 18, 2013)

MissMartinez said:


> EPOC is overestimed for the most part with CV don't you think?
> 
> http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/steady-state-versus-intervals-and-epoc-practical-application.html/


Without a doubt. Never even considered kcals burnt during cardio. I am either losing weight or im not, if I'm not I address it.


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## essexboy (Sep 7, 2008)

Dark sim said:


> I can post multiple studies negating starvation mode, metabolic adaption maybe, starvation mode no.


 its only an hypothesis.I cant see how it could be accurately measured.I just believe its a logical one.When you actually accept, what we are and how our DNA is primed for only one thing.We can dress it up, with any number of titles, I think we generally believe the outcome is the same.


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## essexboy (Sep 7, 2008)

Gmags said:


> Ok that makes sense.
> 
> So increased cardio and decreased calories could enter into starvation mode whereby the body rather than burning fat will actually look to store?
> 
> So sticking with the same/similar routine my body is used to and just decreasing calories gradually is more effective?


Yup.However, it might be prudent to decrease carbs, not just overall calories.


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## Gmags (Nov 16, 2015)

> Yup.However, it might be prudent to decrease carbs, not just overall calories.


I can just switch to skimmed milk, remove powdered oats from shakes and avoid carbs at lunch. Thats surely a start.

No fizzy drinks or evening treats!


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## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

essexboy said:


> Yup.However, it might be prudent to decrease carbs, not just overall calories.


I find reducing carbs works better than reducing cals.

And no, I dont want an argument about it.


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## Fluke82 (Sep 10, 2015)

banzi said:


> I find *reducing carbs works better than reducing cals.*
> 
> And no, I dont want an argument about it.


Because they are effectively the same thing.

and no - I am not trying to start an argument... :whistling:


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## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

Drogon said:


> Because they are effectively the same thing.
> 
> and no - I am not trying to start an argument... :whistling:


 numerically yes, physiologically no.


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## BTS93 (Sep 5, 2013)

Dark sim said:


> Correct.
> 
> Was 19 1/2 natty around 15-18%. Now 21st 7lbs same bf.
> 
> ...


 Hugely respect that you trained 15 years natty. Someone to look up to!
Ever take any supps that weren't technically steroids whilst being natty? (ECA/Clen?)

Sorry for the late quote.. Been putting off reading the thread with the about of pages lol.


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## Dark sim (May 18, 2013)

BTS93 said:


> Hugely respect that you trained 15 years natty. Someone to look up to!
> Ever take any supps that weren't technically steroids whilst being natty? (ECA/Clen?)
> 
> Sorry for the late quote.. Been putting off reading the thread with the about of pages lol.


 Appreciate the comment.

All I took regularly was cellmass from bsn, a creatine blend. This would always take my bench from 130x10 to 140 for 10 and add 7lbs in 4 weeks. Did not know what eca/clen were until 2 years ago.


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## BTS93 (Sep 5, 2013)

Dark sim said:


> Appreciate the comment.
> 
> All I took regularly was cellmass from bsn, a creatine blend. This would always take my bench from 130x10 to 140 for 10 and add 7lbs in 4 weeks. Did not know what eca/clen were until 2 years ago.


 Inspiring buddy. What was your routine type if you mind me asking? e.g. PPL, bro split etc.. & has this changed since playing with chemicals?


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## Dark sim (May 18, 2013)

BTS93 said:


> Inspiring buddy. What was your routine type if you mind me asking? e.g. PPL, bro split etc.. & has this changed since playing with chemicals?


 Bro split, still bro split.


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