# Is it time to stop the cut and go on a lean bulk ?



## Drudkh (Jul 13, 2017)

I've been losing weight for the past 1.5 years, not consistently but the progress was slow until I started counting my macros. At the start I was a fat piece of **** weighing ~106kg ( 233lb ) and now after my final morning ( before eating or drinking anything ) weigh in I'm at 79.5 ( 175lb ). Also I'm 187cm ( 6.13 feet ). I've been on a 1500kc diet for more than 6 months, going to the gym for the past 2 years, 3 days/week fullbody workout with no cardio, working a desk job. A major issue is that I couldnt eat the necessary amount of protein ( was eating ~140g/day ) and now after losing allt his weight I feel like a weakling, with little muscle mass.

I've been thinking about continuing the cut 'till I could eliminate all the chest and belly fat so I can be able to see my abs without sucking in my gut.

Is continuing to lose weight for a few more weeks a good idea or should I stop and start gaining ?

Appreciate the help.


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## Wayno (Aug 5, 2016)

Drudkh said:


> I've been losing weight for the past 1.5 years, not consistently but the progress was slow until I started counting my macros. At the start I was a fat piece of **** weighing ~106kg ( 233lb ) and now after my final morning ( before eating or drinking anything ) weigh in I'm at 79.5 ( 175lb ). Also I'm 187cm ( 6.13 feet ). I've been on a 1500kc diet for more than 6 months, going to the gym for the past 2 years, 3 days/week fullbody workout with no cardio, working a desk job. A major issue is that I couldnt eat the necessary amount of protein ( was eating ~140g/day ) and now after losing allt his weight I feel like a weakling, with little muscle mass.
> 
> I've been thinking about continuing the cut 'till I could eliminate all the chest and belly fat so I can be able to see my abs without sucking in my gut.
> 
> ...


 I'd say go for it mate

You've been cutting for a while now by the sounds of it now use that same patience for a lean bulk, reverse diet is advisable and just slowly add things back in and hopefully you'll keep fat gain to a minimum


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## Tricky (Jan 21, 2017)

You've done well mate well done

inyour position which I will be in around 8 weeks I'm going to reverse diet so add 200kcals per day for a week for the first week and each week after increasing by 200 slowly back up the kcals while training hard concentrating on progressive load adding weight or reps each workout to add size at a rate of max 3lbs per month


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## 66983 (May 30, 2016)

Is it time to stop the cut and go on a lean bulk ?

Only you can decide, as an estimate I'd say your 12-13% BF.


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## Drudkh (Jul 13, 2017)

Tricky said:


> You've done well mate well done
> 
> inyour position which I will be in around 8 weeks I'm going to reverse diet so add 200kcals per day for a week for the first week and each week after increasing by 200 slowly back up the kcals while training hard concentrating on progressive load adding weight or reps each workout to add size at a rate of max 3lbs per month


 Isnt 3lbs/month a bit too much ? I was thinking about adding 300kcals/day and 2lbs/month for minimal fat gains. As for workout I'm going to stick with compound lifts and slowly add weight.



Sparkey said:


> Is it time to stop the cut and go on a lean bulk ?
> 
> Only you can decide, as an estimate I'd say your 12-13% BF.


 Well, I wanted some opinions about the consequences of starting a bulk with my current physique. Wanted to know if I should lean out more so I wont look too puffy while I bulk.


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## Jamie West (Jul 14, 2017)

I would go on a bulk to gain some lean muscle mass i would go up to 2500 - 3000 calories in order to gain more muscle, until you get until you get about 15-20 % bf then lean down a bit more


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## Tricky (Jan 21, 2017)

Drudkh said:


> Isnt 3lbs/month a bit too much ? I was thinking about adding 300kcals/day and 2lbs/month for minimal fat gains. As for workout I'm going to stick with compound lifts and slowly add weight.
> 
> Well, I wanted some opinions about the consequences of starting a bulk with my current physique. Wanted to know if I should lean out more so I wont look too puffy while I bulk.


 I said 3lbs max. I'm aiming for 0.5lbs a week which over 2lbs in 30 days


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## DLTBB (Jan 26, 2015)

Yeah, I'd say go for it. Continue tracking your calorie intake properly and use a small surplus though, it's way too easy to get carried away after dieting for a long time and start over-eating and gain a load of fat back quickly, try to make the weight gain as clean as possible.


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## Sphinkter (Apr 10, 2015)

Tricky said:


> I said 3lbs max. I'm aiming for 0.5lbs a week which over 2lbs in 30 days


 Is 3lbs max a month not short changing yourself a bit for your first cycle?


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## Tricky (Jan 21, 2017)

Sphinkter said:


> Is 3lbs max a month not short changing yourself a bit for your first cycle?


 I don't think it would be possible to gain 3lb plus of actual muscle tissue in a month first cycle or not? I'm not sure if you can call it a first cycle as I will have been on 300mg of test for 3 months prior to starting to eat in a supruls


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## Sphinkter (Apr 10, 2015)

Tricky said:


> I don't think it would be possible to gain 3lb plus of actual muscle tissue in a month first cycle or not? I'm not sure if you can call it a first cycle as I will have been on 300mg of test for 3 months prior to starting to eat in a supruls


 Yeh but you wont have been building any muscle as like you say you are in a deficit.

Actual muscle protein? Probably not but your muscles are only about 20% dry weight the rest being water and glycogen. So if you're only putting on 3lbs of total weight per month how much of that is going to be actual muscle tissue?


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## Tricky (Jan 21, 2017)

Sphinkter said:


> Yeh but you wont have been building any muscle as like you say you are in a deficit.
> 
> Actual muscle protein? Probably not but your muscles are only about 20% dry weight the rest being water and glycogen. So if you're only putting on 3lbs of total weight per month how much of that is going to be actual muscle tissue?


 I haven't a clue mate lol. I just know I need to ride this cut out as long as possible even though I'm bored now and feel tiny in a t shirt and in the gym but I know I'll reap the rewards bulking from a leaner base.

The fact I've always been overweight when I do start to bulk and eat above maintence I'm terrified to undo 4 months of cutting hard so I'll keep an eye on diet and be happy with even a few lbs gain per month between now and march 2018 then I'll do a 16 week contest prep


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## Sphinkter (Apr 10, 2015)

Tricky said:


> I haven't a clue mate lol. I just know I need to ride this cut out as long as possible even though I'm bored now and feel tiny in a t shirt and in the gym but I know I'll reap the rewards bulking from a leaner base.
> 
> The fact I've always been overweight when I do start to bulk and eat above maintence I'm terrified to undo 4 months of cutting hard so I'll keep an eye on diet and be happy with even a few lbs gain per month between now and march 2018 then I'll do a 16 week contest prep


 Cool mate I'm looking forward to getting it done as well. Also feeling tiny in a T-shirt, my arms are now under 15" flexed :crying: .

i got lean before I start test last august and f**ked about trying to stay lean and gain. I done alright up till xmas and it all went to s**t with uni and work getting the better of me. Been cruising since January, just want to bump up to 500mg and get ****in huge. Am just gona shoot for as much as I can and go hard as f**k in the gym, will pull calories back if my waistlines going up too fast and either set a time for a mini cut or just do it when my waist exceeds 32" or something.


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## Tricky (Jan 21, 2017)

Sphinkter said:


> Cool mate I'm looking forward to getting it done as well. Also feeling tiny in a T-shirt, my arms are now under 15" flexed :crying: .
> 
> i got lean before I start test last august and f**ked about trying to stay lean and gain. I done alright up till xmas and it all went to s**t with uni and work getting the better of me. Been cruising since January, just want to bump up to 500mg and get ****in huge. Am just gona shoot for as much as I can and go hard as f**k in the gym, will pull calories back if my waistlines going up too fast and either set a time for a mini cut or just do it when my waist exceeds 32" or something.


 See a part of me thinks that too! Just eat, train and recover and grow! If I do start to get to fat pull the calories back a bit or do a mini 4 week cut. I've never been big so would like to add some decent size. Just conscious of it not working for some reason and gaining More fat than muscle and looking like I'm fat again after going through this cutting progress lol. Trial and error I suppose, either way I doubt I can look worse than I did 10 weeks ago atleast now I sort of look like I train when I flex


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## Sphinkter (Apr 10, 2015)

Tricky said:


> See a part of me thinks that too! Just eat, train and recover and grow! If I do start to get to fat pull the calories back a bit or do a mini 4 week cut. I've never been big so would like to add some decent size. Just conscious of it not working for some reason and gaining More fat than muscle and looking like I'm fat again after going through this cutting progress lol. Trial and error I suppose, either way I doubt I can look worse than I did 10 weeks ago atleast now I sort of look like I train when I flex


 Same mate heaviest I've ever been is when I bulked to 13 stone natty and looked like shite


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## S123 (Jun 14, 2013)

If you feel you can ride the cut out do that, it all depends on you really, would you be happy with more muscle and some bodyfat (if done correctly) The problem I find with this is people think they can start eating 3 takeaways a day and gain muscle but they are just literally rebounding their bf% back to the same as before with minimal muscle gain if they are eating a ridiculous amount over maintenance


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## Devil (May 31, 2016)

IMO you've done really really well, might as well go for another few % so you're borderline shredded levels.

you will then really notice progrsss

+ muscle gains as you transition into a small surplus

if you're running gear then 200% get even leaner


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## RedStar (Aug 8, 2014)

Devil said:


> IMO you've done really really well, might as well go for another few % so you're borderline shredded levels.
> 
> you will then really notice progrsss
> 
> ...


 Also the leaner you get as a base the more efficient his body will be at making gains, as opposed to fat gains (if diet/training on point).


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## ILLBehaviour (Dec 20, 2014)

tren


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## Fadi (Dec 14, 2010)

Drudkh said:


> *Is it time to stop the cut and go on a lean bulk ?*


 Neither...

Focusing on caloric intake; focusing on cutting, focusing on bulking...,has deviated your attention from the most efficient way to achieving the look and level of strength you desire. You've achieved much so far, and for that, you ought to be congratulated. So well done for putting in the effort. However, you've reached a level now where you need to move on by taking it to the next level.

I know what you're thinking, "mate, that's exactly what I want to do, hence I've started this thread."

What I'm suggesting to you right now is this: your focus is best spent on the building of new muscle tissue, (neither a cut nor a [clean] bulk on your radar here), but full 100% focus on building some muscle mass. Why is that? Because this new muscle mass, would take care of appropriating both the cutting as well as the bulking for you, (yes even your appetite would become self-regulating as a result here), in a much more efficient way than you ever could. OK then, so what is needed here to get the job done?

You've said that you currently train 3x/week full body workout. That's perfect. What we need here is to perform the minimum amount of exercises, that would serve to maximise on your end results. It doesn't take an Einstein to work out what these fundamental exercises are.

In a nutshell and in plain English: focus on building muscles, that leads to a boost in your metabolism, that (would naturally) lead to transforming you into a more efficient calorie-burning machine..., even whilst sitting and reading these words.

I'll leave it here for now, as the purpose of my post was simply to draw your attention onto the *building of*, instead of the cutting of, or the [lean] bulking to...

Yes, it's an attitude thing; just what the brain needs to shift gears and begin to seek a new path..., one that leads to new muscles and strength gains.

All power to you Champ.

Fadi.


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## Lifesizepenguin (Jul 25, 2016)

ILLBehaviour said:


> tren


 its like the only thing ive ever seen you post :lol:


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## Devil (May 31, 2016)

Fadi65 said:


> Neither...
> 
> Focusing on caloric intake; focusing on cutting, focusing on bulking...,has deviated your attention from the most efficient way to achieving the look and level of strength you desire. You've achieved much so far, and for that, you ought to be congratulated. So well done for putting in the effort. However, you've reached a level now where you need to move on by taking it to the next level.
> 
> ...


 Sorry but most of this is complete bs.

You lose fat (and muscle, to some degree even if absolutely minimal) in a calorie deficit (cut)

you gain muscle (and fat again to varying degrees) in a calorie surplus (bulk).

Gaining muscle, which requires a surplus, will not lead to fat loss as you seem to suggest I.e when sitting around (as the body becomes more metabolically efficient) as you are still in a surplus and not a deficit! Or the alternate, you become more efficient and then enter a deficit meaning muscle gain will stall! (Hence why you need to slowly increase calories throughout duration of a bulk)

You should absolutely be focusing on one of the other op or you will spin your wheels and progress very slowly.

Studies have shown (haven't got them to hand) that there was no extra muscle gain from a 200 and a 600 calorie surplus - just extra fat gain.

Ancedotally people also gain muscle very well and "lean bulk" on a small surplus of 250-500.

As suggested, if you are getting on AAS, I'd cut even more so that you respond optimally and should see fantastic lean gains (in a adequate but not overblown surplus!).

Or just start "lean bulking" now. The idea of bulking hard and putting on as "much size/muscle as possible" is becoming so outdated now, and barely anyone respectable uses the method.

You just waste time as you inevitably have to spend more time cutting (in a deficit - which means you are not building any muscle!) with minimal, if even any, extra muscle.

Im pretty pissed, but hope that makes some form of sense.

tldr ignore this dude and 100% focus on calories (and protein) to dictate your goal - it's literally the most important thing in all instances


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## Charlee Scene (Jul 6, 2010)

Devil said:


> Sorry but most of this is complete bs.
> 
> You lose fat (and muscle, to some degree even if absolutely minimal) in a calorie deficit (cut)
> 
> ...


 Agreed


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## Drudkh (Jul 13, 2017)

Appreciate the answers.

The purpose of opening this topic was to see if I could begin a lean bulk ( 300 calories/day over maintenance ) with my current form so I can optimally put muscle without noticeably putting on fat, hence the worries about looking too puffy while in a surplus. The plan is to bulk for 6 months and the cut again, and if all goes well I should pack on about 12lbs, but how much of that will be actual muscle ? I understand that my bf% will increase, I just dont want my physique to look like s**t during this 6 months period, thus the reason I'm looking for lean gains.

As a side note, I'm not aspiring towards looking shredded, just an aesthetic and strong look. This is a great example of what I'm talking about.

Btw, I'm not on any kind of gear.


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## Fadi (Dec 14, 2010)

Devil said:


> Sorry but most of this is complete bs.
> 
> Im pretty pissed, but hope that makes some form of sense.
> 
> tldr ignore this dude and 100% focus on calories (and protein) to dictate your goal - it's literally the most important thing in all instances


 Thank you for your contribution Sir. You've managed to write plenty despite been under the influence (as you've stated above).

I'm sure you've heard of the term: the straw man fallacy.

You want to focus on calories and the state of being in either a deficit or a surplus. That is fine with me, however that was not what I was talking about, so I'm not quite sure how you've come to the conclusion that what I wrote was simply "bs"..., unless of course you'd consider any approach other than what has already been discussed in this thread as "bs".

What you wrote was different, belonging to a different approach. That Sir does not automatically make it "bs". I not only respect different point of views from mine, but would also welcome such differing views from mine.

I wish you all the best Champ.

Fadi.


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## Devil (May 31, 2016)

Fadi65 said:


> Thank you for your contribution Sir. You've managed to write plenty despite been under the influence (as you've stated above).
> 
> I'm sure you've heard of the term: the straw man fallacy.
> 
> ...


 Erm, this:

"What I'm suggesting to you right now is this: your focus is best spent on the building of new muscle tissue, (neither a cut nor a [clean] bulk on your radar here), but full 100% focus on building some muscle mass. Why is that? Because this new muscle mass, would take care of appropriating both the cutting as well as the bulking for you, (yes even your appetite would become self-regulating as a result here), in a much more efficient way than you ever could. OK then, so what is needed here to get the job done?"

is a very long way of you saying don't focus on calories - don't cut of clean bulk etc

Calories are the utmost important aspect by a long shot to make sure that he hits his goal (lean bulk with minimal fat) and also not spin his wheels, which he most certainly would do be relying on his "appetite and letting his body self regulate" as you suggest (whatever that even means).

Your post sounded good, and to a Newb looking for advice would most certainly sell well to those at the bottom of the ladder - but I stand by my initial comment - it's nearly all BS.


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## Fadi (Dec 14, 2010)

Devil said:


> Erm, this:
> 
> "What I'm suggesting to you right now is this: your focus is best spent on the building of new muscle tissue, (neither a cut nor a [clean] bulk on your radar here), but full 100% focus on building some muscle mass. Why is that? Because this new muscle mass, would take care of appropriating both the cutting as well as the bulking for you, (yes even your appetite would become self-regulating as a result here), in a much more efficient way than you ever could. OK then, so what is needed here to get the job done?"
> 
> ...


 Does a lion or a tiger focus on their caloric intake? The answer is no. Well why not? It's because their internal "sensors" if you like, would dictate to them how much and how often they should be eating.

I mentioned that the exercise would take care of the regulation of the amount of caloric intake, so leave it to the exercise and the amount of muscles you have to dictate your appetite. In other words, focus on working your ass off in the gym and let your body tell you what do with your calories instead of you increasing or decreasing calories.

Re the self-regulate. Well we can discuss that if you like, but I'd just allude to one point here, and that is the taking of exogenous steroids. If you do take, then by all means your approach towards "Calories are the utmost important aspect by a long shot... ." would 100% apply, as you have proved it by throwing much of your focus onto them. That does not make your approach wrong now, but rather different by necessity.

I believe the OP is a natural trainee, so it's really up to him as to which approach he would choose to take. No one is right or wrong here mate, as you do what you need to do based on the individual circumstances. If for some reason you believe I'm having some debate with you here, or saying that your approach is wrong, then you've got my apology Sir, as that's not what this is about or what I'm about.


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## Devil (May 31, 2016)

Fadi65 said:


> Does a lion or a tiger focus on their caloric intake? The answer is no. Well why not? It's because their internal "sensors" if you like, would dictate to them how much and how often they should be eating.
> 
> I mentioned that the exercise would take care of the regulation of the amount of caloric intake, so leave it to the exercise and the amount of muscles you have to dictate your appetite. In other words, focus on working your ass off in the gym and let your body tell you what do with your calories instead of you increasing or decreasing calories.
> 
> ...


 I read the first line and stopped myself reading the rest. Srs.

OP will just have to decide.


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## jakes (Jun 1, 2017)

Drudkh said:


> Isnt 3lbs/month a bit too much ? I was thinking about adding 300kcals/day and 2lbs/month for minimal fat gains. As for workout I'm going to stick with compound lifts and slowly add weight.
> 
> Well, I wanted some opinions about the consequences of starting a bulk with my current physique. Wanted to know if I should lean out more so I wont look too puffy while I bulk.


 Remember mate, the more muscle you have the quicker you'll burn calories. Fantastic progress btw, well done.


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