# Should i take Nolvadex during cycle??



## Thweets (Jul 11, 2012)

im doing cycle of Test 400mg/2ml a week, deca300mg/1ml a week and starting with dbol30mg a ED just woundering if i sould take nolva throughout to prevent some estrogen??

Thanks.


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## Ginger Ben (Oct 5, 2010)

I'd run nolva while using the dbol then switch to an AI like arimidex for the rest of the cycle.


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## Mitch. (Jul 26, 2011)

Take Arimidex.

I'm not as helpful as Aus with link posting but nolva reduces IGF-1 and arimidex increases IGF-1.

1mg ED arimidex.


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## misterlee (Mar 1, 2012)

I'm fairly sure that Nolva shouldn't be run with Deca.

An AI would be suffice IMO.


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

Thweets said:


> im doing cycle of Test 400mg/2ml a week, deca300mg/1ml a week and starting with dbol30mg a ED just woundering if i sould take nolva throughout to prevent some estrogen??
> 
> Thanks.


Not Nolva. Run either Aromasin at 1x tab ED (25mg/day) or Arimidex 1xtab ED (1mg/day).

The reason not nolva:

Tamoxifen REDUCES IGF-1 (and GH):

"...Our study confirm the *inhibitory effect of tamoxifen on IGF-I and suggested*, as shown in previous in vitro data, that its *suppression could be directly related to GH reduction*"

From: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11299809

where as Arimidex SIGNIFICANTLY INCREASES IGF-1:

"...IGF-1 significantly increased during anastrozole treatment"

from: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11983488

and you will also find that arimidex alone, is just as effective as Tamoxifen combined with arimidex, and more effective than tamoxifen alone:

"...*anastrozole continues to show superior efficacy*, which is most apparent in the clinically relevant hormone receptor-positive population. Furthermore, anastrozole has numerous noteworthy advantages in terms of tolerability compared with tamoxifen."

from:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14584060

and:

"...Combination treatment" (of tamoxifen and anastrozole) "...was equivalent to tamoxifen in terms of both efficacy and tolerability. *Anastrozole showed superior efficacy to tamoxifen* for DFS, TTR and contralateral breast cancer..."

from:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14623537

I would suggest for gyno prevention, and reduction, 1mg ED is the best choice, and superior to adding nolva to armidex, or just changing to nolva as noted above.



Ginger Ben said:


> I'd run nolva while using the dbol then switch to an AI like arimidex for the rest of the cycle.


no, just start with an AI. Dbol converts to the most potent oestrogen possible- you really do want an AI right from the start.



misterlee said:


> I'm fairly sure that Nolva shouldn't be run with Deca.
> 
> An AI would be suffice IMO.


Never heard such rubbish before....

Why wouldnt you run nolva with deca??

Contrary to popular belief, deca DOES aromatise:

"...19-nortestosterone derivatives (norethisterone, norethynodrel, tibolone) can readily be aromatized in the adult human liver. This leads to the formation of the potent estrogens ethinylestradiol from norethisterone"

from: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17653961

Now nolva would prevent the gyno, but not the water retention from the increased oestrogen. Once again, an AI would be a better choice, however Nolvadex would be better than nothing!


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## Ginger Ben (Oct 5, 2010)

ausbuilt said:


> Not Nolva. Run either Aromasin at 1x tab ED (25mg/day) or Arimidex 1xtab ED (1mg/day).
> 
> The reason not nolva:
> 
> ...


Yeah, what he said.... :rolleye:


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## misterlee (Mar 1, 2012)

ausbuilt said:


> Not Nolva. Run either Aromasin at 1x tab ED (25mg/day) or Arimidex 1xtab ED (1mg/day).
> 
> The reason not nolva:
> 
> ...


I've seen this numerous times in threads. But I stand corrected.


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## Hotdog147 (Oct 15, 2011)

ausbuilt said:


> Not Nolva. Run either Aromasin at 1x tab ED (25mg/day) or Arimidex 1xtab ED (1mg/day).
> 
> The reason not nolva:
> 
> ...


I know an AI is better for various reasons over nolva but surely it won't hinder gains on cycle as steroids increase IGF-1 and those studies are for people with breast cancer, not men taking steroids! Not saying nolva is better by any means, I use AI's as you know

So surely if people don't mind a bit of bloat then nolva is a good cheap alternative no?

**Edit** Seen you say it's better than nothing! LOL


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

Hotdog147 said:


> I know an AI is better for various reasons over nolva but surely it won't hinder gains on cycle as steroids increase IGF-1 and those studies are for people with breast cancer, not men taking steroids! Not saying nolva is better by any means, I use AI's as you know
> 
> So surely if people don't mind a bit of bloat then nolva is a good cheap alternative no?
> 
> **Edit** Seen you say it's better than nothing! LOL


LOL was just going to reply I did say Nolva better than nothing- better a marginal reduction in gains then getting gyno (which will cost LOADS more to treat/reduce/remove).

However, given the choice, or if you can afford an AI, its the better choice is my actual point.


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## Mitch. (Jul 26, 2011)

ausbuilt said:


> Not Nolva. Run either Aromasin at 1x tab ED (25mg/day) or Arimidex 1xtab ED (1mg/day).
> 
> The reason not nolva:
> 
> ...


I'm sure you have a copy and paste post considering the amount of times you explain this to people!

I knew you'd be in to post so kept mine short for the OP to search for your info.


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

hctiM said:


> I'm sure you have a copy and paste post considering the amount of times you explain this to people!
> 
> I knew you'd be in to post so kept mine short for the OP to search for your info.


yep, i just google the key words and my name and up will come a thread and I do cut 'n paste... as no one searches/reads, everyone only asks their own q...


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## Rich_89 (Jul 11, 2012)

Why would anyone run nolvadex when we have aromatase inhibitors?? Show nolva the toilet.

Use adex, aromasin, or research forma stanzol for an excellent AI. or if you can get letro, only a low dose is ample to counter any estro/progestro sides.

Deca will cause progesterone and prolactin related side effects though, being a 19-nor compound, therefore you should be running cabergoline/dostinex with it! Or you may get milky tits.


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## Mitch. (Jul 26, 2011)

Rich_89 said:


> Why would anyone run nolvadex when we have aromatase inhibitors?? Show nolva the toilet.
> 
> Use adex, aromasin, or research forma stanzol for an excellent AI. or if you can get letro, only a low dose is ample to counter any estro/progestro sides.
> 
> Deca will cause progesterone and prolactin related side effects though, being a 19-nor compound, therefore you should be running cabergoline/dostinex with it! Or you may get milky tits.


Estrogen needs to be present for the gyno to grow before prolactin becomes an issue. Use an AI to control estrogen and you shouldn't need caber.


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## HVYDUTY100 (Sep 4, 2010)

Ive used Nolva with test and deca... still do and havnt had any problems with it... the IGF1 issue does annoy me abit. but like said above if it does reduce the gains only marginally, I can live with that


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## Rich_89 (Jul 11, 2012)

hctiM said:


> Estrogen needs to be present for the gyno to grow before prolactin becomes an issue. Use an AI to control estrogen and you shouldn't need caber.


I agree with you sir, but you can't eradicate all estrogen from your body, that's why some say letro is a poor on cycle AI, because it's so powerful. You need some present. So if there is someone who is a bit sensitive, this bit of estrogen could open up a floodgate of problems.

Err on the side of caution and have caber on hand, so you won't be caught out.


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

Rich_89 said:


> Why would anyone run nolvadex when we have aromatase inhibitors?? Show nolva the toilet.
> 
> Use adex, aromasin, or research forma stanzol for an excellent AI. or if you can get letro, only a low dose is ample to counter any estro/progestro sides.
> 
> Deca will cause progesterone and prolactin related side effects though, being a 19-nor compound, therefore you should be running cabergoline/dostinex with it! Or you may get milky tits.


I use letro at 1x tab/day as I'm on 4g/week test. For most others its overkill and will decrease sex drive considerably (reduced mine a little!).

as for deca, I'm sorry my friend, you're sprouting BROSCIENCE.

Number one- Deca DOES AROMATISE to a very potent oestrogen:

"...19-nortestosterone derivatives (norethisterone, norethynodrel, tibolone) can readily be aromatized in the adult human liver. This leads to the formation of the potent estrogens ethinylestradiol from norethisterone"

from: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17653961

as I noted above... but lets explore the actions of oestrogen, progesterone and prolactin further:

There is some pretty basic misunderstanding out there, with people repeating "bro science" and saying they have "prolactin" gyno from deca or tren, which is physically impossible:

Prolactin "...stimulates the mammary glands to produce milk (lactation): Increased serum concentrations of prolactin during pregnancy cause enlargement of the mammary glands of the breasts and prepare for the production of milk. However, the high levels of progesterone during pregnancy suppress the production of milk. Milk production normally starts when the levels of progesterone fall by the end of pregnancy and a suckling stimulus is present

thats from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prolactin

You should note that, HIGH progesterone INHIBITS prolactin!!

Then, 19-nortestosterones , are classed as progestins:

"Clinical studies have shown" Deca Durabolin..." (a 19-nortestosterone derivative) "... to be effective in treating anaemia, osteoporosis and some forms of neoplasia including breast cancer, and also acts as a progestin-based contraceptive... Estrogenic effects resulting from reaction with aromatase are also mitigated as a result of the drug being a progestin."

from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nandrolone

And if you read this, 19-nortest has MINOR activity in aromatisation in men:

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...39128X66910129

Now what DOES cause breast development?

"While estrogens are present in both men and women, they are usually present at significantly higher levels in women of reproductive age. They promote the development of female secondary sexual characteristics, such as breasts, and are also involved in the thickening of the endometrium and other aspects of regulating the menstrual cycle. In males, estrogen regulates certain functions of the reproductive system important to the maturation of sperm[10][11][12] and may be necessary for a healthy libido.[13][14]"

from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estrogen

Now progesterone:

"...Progesterone has a number of physiological effects that are amplified in the presence of estrogen. Estrogen through estrogen receptors upregulates the expression of progesterone receptors.[26] ."

also:

"Progesterone is sometimes called the "hormone of pregnancy",[35] and it has many roles relating to the development of the fetus...In addition progesterone inhibits lactation during pregnancy. The fall in progesterone levels following delivery is one of the triggers for milk production." (folks please not, as noted above in prolactin- high progesterone INHIBITS prolactin, low progesterone lets prolactin rise).

both the above from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progesterone

So to summarise that:

1. 19-nortest derivatives (deca & tren) are progestins

2. High levels of progesterone INHIBIT prolactin

3. Progesterone only exerts the majority of its effects in a high oestrogen environment.

So, where the F**K do people get of saying take CABER to suppress prolactin when taking 19-nor steroids??? Taking a 19-nor steriod AUTOMATICALLY INHIBITS PROLACTIN!!!


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## xpower (Jul 28, 2009)

Personally I use letro (750-1g test I use 1.25mg letro a day) & when on Dbol Letro & Raloxifen


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

HVYDUTY100 said:


> Ive used Nolva with test and deca... still do and havnt had any problems with it... the IGF1 issue does annoy me abit. but like said above if it does reduce the gains only marginally, I can live with that


yes its only marginal. Nolva use means you're a water balloon though! :devil2:



Rich_89 said:


> I agree with you sir, but you can't eradicate all estrogen from your body, that's why some say letro is a poor on cycle AI, because it's so powerful. You need some present. So if there is someone who is a bit sensitive, this bit of estrogen could open up a floodgate of problems.
> 
> Err on the side of caution and have caber on hand, so you won't be caught out.


sorry mate, please stop spouting bro-science.


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## Rich_89 (Jul 11, 2012)

HVYDUTY100 said:


> Ive used Nolva with test and deca... still do and havnt had any problems with it... the IGF1 issue does annoy me abit. but like said above if it does reduce the gains only marginally, I can live with that


The reason guys get caught out with nolva and tren/deca is because 19nors cause progesterone related side effects, and nolva is a SERM. So it regulates estro, but not progesterone related sides. And nolva is strictly for gyno as, not really estrogen sides. It is as breast cancer drug after all.

The fact that deca aromotises (the post in various threads) to estrogen is new to me. May have to do some more research of my own to verify this lol. As i'm not one to take one source and believe it, but wouldn't rubbish it until i've done some reading.


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## Rich_89 (Jul 11, 2012)

ausbuilt said:


> sorry mate, please stop spouting bro-science.


What part of that is bro-science?

If estro runs riot, you can develop prolactin based side effects. . .


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

Rich_89 said:


> The reason guys get caught out with nolva and tren/deca is because 19nors cause progesterone related side effects, and nolva is a SERM. So it regulates estro, but not progesterone related sides. And nolva is strictly for gyno as, not really estrogen sides. It is as breast cancer drug after all.
> 
> The fact that deca aromotises (the post in various threads) to estrogen is new to me. May have to do some more research of my own to verify this lol. As i'm not one to take one source and believe it, but wouldn't rubbish it until i've done some reading.


mate, AI's are breast cancer drugs too...

its not news that 19-nor (deca) aromatises. It just does so at about 20% the rate of testosterone. Tren does not aromatise, hence no water retention with tren (technically progestins should reduce water retention- like tren, but deca does aromatise to oestrogen, hence the water with deca).


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## xpower (Jul 28, 2009)

I'm quite prone to Gyno on Dbol.

Letro is dose dependant so my OK maybe less/more than others need.

after much self experimentation I've found MY best solution


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## HVYDUTY100 (Sep 4, 2010)

ausbuilt said:


> yes its only marginal. Nolva use means you're a water balloon though! :devil2:
> 
> if i keep my diet clean i dont actually suffer to bad with it when on both test and deca at decent doses.... Fortunately I havnt been told I have a moon face yet, when that day comes i may consider an AI


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## xpower (Jul 28, 2009)

HVYDUTY100 said:


> We all react in differing ways/have less or more aromatase.


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## synthasize (Aug 15, 2009)

I think the often spouted idea of using nolvadex during the dbol kickstart and then an AI for the remainder of the cycle is rubbish. If you do this you are only blocking oestrogen at the breast, and then it can take weeks for adex/aromasin to become stable, so you have a week or two where you have high levels of oestrogen, nothing blocking aromatisation, and nothing blocking binding at the breast


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## Rich_89 (Jul 11, 2012)

ausbuilt said:


> mate, AI's are breast cancer drugs too...
> 
> its not news that 19-nor (deca) aromatises. It just does so at about 20% the rate of testosterone. Tren does not aromatise, hence no water retention with tren (technically progestins should reduce water retention- like tren, but deca does aromatise to oestrogen, hence the water with deca).


Well i've learnt something new today then, because i was unaware deca/tren aromatise to estrogen. So if what you are saying (in your post above) is true, how is it that people are stricken with leaking nipples when on tren/deca, because it does happen?

Edit: i know AI's are breat cancer drugs, but i was under the impression that nolva specifically targets the breat tissue, where as AI's are more of an 'all rounder', with regards to bloat etc, when it comes to off label uses of course.


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## xpower (Jul 28, 2009)

Rich_89 said:


> Well i've learnt something new today then, because i was unaware deca/tren aromatise to estrogen. So if what you are saying (in your post above) is true, how is it that people are stricken with leaking nipples when on tren/deca, because it does happen?


 Too much estro to polactin/progesterone?


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

Rich_89 said:


> What part of that is bro-science?
> 
> If estro runs riot, you can develop prolactin based side effects. . .


You FUNDAMENTALLY misunderstand these hormones:

"During pregnancy, high circulating concentrations of estrogen and progesterone inhibit the action of prolactin on milk production. Following delivery, reduced estrogen and progesterone production allows prolactin to induce lactation."

from:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prolactin

Now the whole point is if Deca increases progesterone- this inhibits prolactin.

In fact, high circulating oestrogen ALONE would inhibit prolactin....

How much simpler can I put this- deca and tren do no give you prolactin issues!!! where's the proof???


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## Thweets (Jul 11, 2012)

Thanks for all advice, appreciated. Was also woundering would Tbol be better for bulking than dbol?


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

Rich_89 said:


> Well i've learnt something new today then, because i was unaware deca/tren aromatise to estrogen. So if what you are saying (in your post above) is true, how is it that people are stricken with leaking nipples when on tren/deca, because it does happen?
> 
> Edit: i know AI's are breat cancer drugs, but i was under the impression that nolva specifically targets the breat tissue, where as AI's are more of an 'all rounder', with regards to bloat etc, when it comes to off label uses of course.


nolva is SERM (Selective Estrogen Modulator) it decreases the ACTIVITY of estrogen at the breast, but increases it in places like the uterus/bones/liver.

AI is an AROMATASE INHIBITOR; its not an "all rounder" it doesnt target at any tissue- what it does do is bind to the Aromatase Enzyme, preventing the enzyme from aromatising test to estrogen... thus reducing the overall level of oestrogen in post menopausal women and men (as pre-menopausal women get 65% of their oestrogen by production in the uterus, and only 35% by aromastisation in peripheral tissues such as liver, fat etc)


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

Thweets said:


> Thanks for all advice, appreciated. Was also woundering would Tbol be better for bulking than dbol?


tbol is a drug primarily developed for female athletes.


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## capo (Jul 24, 2011)

I have always thought that with deca you should run Nolva and Proviron

http://juicedmuscle.com/jmblog/content/controversy-surrounds-proviron-mesterolone


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

capo said:


> I have always thought that with deca you should run Nolva and Proviron
> 
> http://juicedmuscle.com/jmblog/content/controversy-surrounds-proviron-mesterolone


nolva is better than nothing, but an AI is better still. I prefer arimidex.

as for proviron- sure, its 1-methyl DHT. The link is correct that deca reduces to DHN which binds at the DHT receptor sites, including the penis, causing "deca dick".

AS proviron becomes DHT once past the liver, it displaces the DHN, and gives you "wood" again. However its far to weak an anti-oestrogen to prevent gyno without nolva or an AI.

But before popping a proviron, remember that 5% of all testosterone converts to DHT:

"...In men, approximately 5% of testosterone undergoes 5?-reduction to form the more potent androgen, dihydrotestosterone. DHT has approximately three times greater affinity for androgen receptors than testosterone and has 15-30 times greater affinity than adrenal androgens.[1] During embryogenesis DHT has an essential role in the formation of the male external genitalia, while in the adult DHT acts as the primary androgen in the prostate and in hair follicles.[2]"

from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dihydrotestosterone

now that means to your body, 25mg of proviron is the same as 500mg of test (as in you body thinks you have that much extra test in your system and shuts you down appropriately,e ven if you wheren't on deca....)

50mg of proviron gives the DHT equivalent of 1g of test...... so my question is why not take test with your deca and get better muscle growth as well as normal sex drive..


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