# Barbell rows - cheating



## superpube (Feb 18, 2015)

How much cheating is acceptable on bent over rows?

I see some people using ultra strict form, and Far more cheating (I mean using momentum, dipping to start the movement etc) some more so than others.

Also noticed that the bigger the dude, the more they seem to cheat, randomly..?


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## monkeybiker (Jul 21, 2010)

I prefer dumbell rows, far safer for the back.


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## Jordan08 (Feb 17, 2014)

I use Yates row instead of bent over rows. Can't maintain my form on that one


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## JohhnyC (Mar 16, 2015)

superpube said:


> How much cheating is acceptable on bent over rows?
> 
> I see some people using ultra strict form, and Far more cheating (I mean using momentum, dipping to start the movement etc) some more so than others.
> 
> Also noticed that the bigger the dude, the more they seem to cheat, randomly..?


 always think you can cheat a bit on *the last rep or two *in some exercises like barbell row but not the early reps, otherwise weight is too heavy.

I just try bear in mind that its the muscles that need to be stimulated and put under load not what actual weight you can lift, that is the key point.

Some people are down right daft like on the lat pull, rocking their torso wildly back, serves no purpose but making you look like a tool


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## Quackerz (Dec 19, 2015)

IMO you should be squeezing and contracting the muscle on the concentric, you should not be able to do this if you cheat the rep. It's the same thing thing as when you see people flailing dumbbells around the gym trying to do curls...... it's not going to get you very far. You want to work the muscles involved, not ego lift.


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## superpube (Feb 18, 2015)

monkeybiker said:


> I prefer dumbell rows, far safer for the back.


 Fortunately for me, I don't lift even remotely heavy enough to harm my back lol


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## superpube (Feb 18, 2015)

JohhnyC said:


> always think you can cheat a bit on *the last rep or two *in some exercises like barbell row but not the early reps, otherwise weight is too heavy.


 Cool, that's how I've been doing it. Start strict and cheat to force last couple of reps out.



Quackerz said:


> IMO you should be squeezing and contracting the muscle on the concentric, you should not be able to do this if you cheat the rep. It's the same thing thing as when you see people flailing dumbbells around the gym trying to do curls...... it's not going to get you very far. You want to work the muscles involved, not ego lift.


 Yeah I need to work on this. I just try to make the weight move rather than working the "mind muscle connection"


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## Quackerz (Dec 19, 2015)

superpube said:


> Fortunately for me, I don't lift even remotely heavy enough to harm my back lol


 Look at my journal, paused contractions on all back exercises, try as hard as you can to engage and squeeze your lats, no point cheating, your just working your glutes and hams more instead........ I prefer dumbbell rows, especially chest supported ones with a dumbbell in each hand.


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## JohhnyC (Mar 16, 2015)

superpube said:


> Cool, that's how I've been doing it. Start strict and cheat to force last couple of reps out.
> 
> Yeah I need to work on this. I just try to make the weight move rather than working the "mind muscle connection"


 I long ago gave up on focusing on weight, half the time I don't bother looking at my journal. Just push it until muscles are tired and fatigued. Oh and making sure the secondary muscles don't take over (e.g Lat pull, an easy one to go too heavy on).


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## superpube (Feb 18, 2015)

Quackerz said:


> Look at my journal, paused contractions on all back exercises, try as hard as you can to engage and squeeze your lats, no point cheating, your just working your glutes and hams more instead........ I prefer dumbbell rows, especially chest supported ones with a dumbbell in each hand.


 Gotta work dem glutes babe for the sexy booty

You mean like laying down on your front on a bench? Got a machine that pretty much does that



JohhnyC said:


> I long ago gave up on focusing on weight, half the time I don't bother looking at my journal. Just push it until muscles are tired and fatigued. Oh and making sure the secondary muscles don't take over (e.g Lat pull, an easy one to go too heavy on).


 Yeah there's a lat pull down machine in my gym, I kept going heavy and heavier on it but never felt like my lats were doing anything, I guess I was using every other mucsle instead. Don't use that any more.


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## Quackerz (Dec 19, 2015)

JohhnyC said:


> I long ago gave up on focusing on weight, half the time I don't bother looking at my journal. Just push it until muscles are tired and fatigued. Oh and making sure the secondary muscles don't take over (e.g Lat pull, an easy one to go too heavy on).


 Just playing devils advocate but you might find this study interesting. I know the game changes slightly where PED's are involved though......

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/261769706_Muscle_Activation_Does_Not_Increase_After_a_Fatigue_Plateau_Is_Reached_During_8_Sets_of_Resistance_Exercise_in_Trained_Individuals

My opinion is less usually tends to be more. Fatigue is not necessary for muscular development, mechanical loading and metabolic stress are the driving factors.



superpube said:


> Gotta work dem glutes babe for the sexy booty
> 
> You mean like laying down on your front on a bench? Got a machine that pretty much does that
> 
> Yeah there's a lat pull down machine in my gym, I kept going heavy and heavier on it but never felt like my lats were doing anything, I guess I was using every other mucsle instead. Don't use that any more.


 Lying face forward on an adjustable bench set at 30 degrees. Squeeze those lats........


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## bigchickenlover (Jul 16, 2013)

Just watch Ronnie Coleman do it

GOAT


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## JohhnyC (Mar 16, 2015)

@Quackerz

I read studies likes this before. I just end getting myself into a muddle and think why isn't this working.

I guess fatigued isn't the correct word, just need to feel that my muscles are nice and drained downed.

I base my gym routines of trial and error over the years. Nicest surprise was volume does not necessarily mean better. I generally am a fan of volume and I used to spend hours in the gym, but cut it back mainly because I got fed up with it and suddenly I broke through the world's longest period of stagnation.

Worst routine for me is a full body routine. I literally wouldn't improve by a rep, but others swear buy it.


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## Quackerz (Dec 19, 2015)

JohhnyC said:


> @Quackerz
> 
> I read studies likes this before. I just end getting myself into a muddle and think why isn't this working.
> 
> ...


 I guess it all revolves around your individual recovery abilities....

I'm the same though, upper lower or PPL. Full body just does not do it for me any more.


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## Kristina (Apr 12, 2014)

Merit to both. I personally like to pyramid up and down again for both strict volume sets and heavy cheat rows. Just my opinion and preference to training approach; brutal strength won;t be happening if all you do is strict-everything. There's a time and a place for both and although some won't care about strength, I think it makes all the difference in optimising growth potential. But whatever works for you is always the best way to go.


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## Frandeman (Mar 24, 2014)

superpube said:


> How much cheating is acceptable on bent over rows?
> 
> I see some people using ultra strict form, and Far more cheating (I mean using momentum, dipping to start the movement etc) some more so than others.
> 
> Also noticed that the bigger the dude, the more they seem to cheat, randomly..?


 As long as the wife doesn't find out is fine


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## superpube (Feb 18, 2015)

Frandeman said:


> As long as the wife doesn't find out is fine


 Out of likes, but fu**ing awesome


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## Quackerz (Dec 19, 2015)

Kristina said:


> Merit to both. I personally like to pyramid up and down again for both strict volume sets and heavy cheat rows. Just my opinion and preference to training approach; *brutal strength won;t be happening if all you do is strict-everything*. There's a time and a place for both and although some won't care about strength, I think it makes all the difference in optimising growth potential. But whatever works for you is always the best way to go.


 That's what deadlifts are for. 

Cheating reps on rows also has nothing to do with strength IMO, not in the general sense....... But if you want to develop explosive strength with rows then why not just do pendlay's........ :confused1:

Also what is outlined in bold, how can I apply this to my squat or bench? Or deadlift even? Rate coding is one of, if the primary driver behind increasing strength. How is it going to be increased when you are not concentrating on the movement correctly? How will you develop correct neural patterns to perform the lift in the proper manner to increase said strength to begin with if all you are doing is flailing the weight around?

I admit that these techniques have worked for very advanced lifters, but for the majority? I would be inclined to disagree.


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## Kristina (Apr 12, 2014)

Quackerz said:


> That's what deadlifts are for.
> 
> Cheating reps on rows also has nothing to do with strength IMO, not in the general sense....... But if you want to develop explosive strength with rows then why not just do pendlay's........ :confused1:
> 
> ...


 Each to their own.

In MY experience, and this is where people get caught up in reading rather than doing... I would have never been able to develop strength to row 100kg without cheat repping. I'm aiming for 100k strict in the next few weeks (5-6 reps).

Not here to dispute your opinion, this is mine.


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## nWo (Mar 25, 2014)

Kristina said:


> Each to their own.
> 
> In MY e. xperience, and this is where people get caught up in reading rather than doing... I would have never been able to develop strength to row 100kg without cheat repping. I'm aiming for 100k strict in the next few weeks (5-6 reps).
> 
> Not here to dispute your opinion, this is mine.


 Good post. I like to keep it strict to failure, then once I'm there then s**t's getting messy - cheats, half reps, you name it. Always worth considering that cheats can be combined with heavy (or extra) controlled negatives which have been proven time and time again to build strength and size.

Cheats are a powerful tool when applied wisely and safely.


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## Quackerz (Dec 19, 2015)

Kristina said:


> Each to their own.
> 
> In MY experience, and this is where people get caught up in reading rather than doing... I would have never been able to develop strength to row 100kg without cheat repping. I'm aiming for 100k strict in the next few weeks (5-6 reps).
> 
> Not here to dispute your opinion, this is mine.


 I would be interested to see the science behind this if you could link me any studies?

I understand that this is your experience, have you tried pendlay's? In doing rather than reading I find these develop strength a lot more than cheat rows. This is my opinion.

Edit: Good work with the BB row progression also. (regardless of how you perform it  )


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

A little bit of cheating is fine so long as you still feel it in the target muscle and aren't putting yourself in a position where you are susceptible to injury. In certain cases the fastest way to continually develop strength involves hitting a rep target with a bit of cheat, then over the next few sessions not increasing the reps or load but cleaning up the form of those reps and then increasing. Going heavier without cleaning up form can see you plateau more quickly, and doing everything super strict can see your rate of progression become very slow. Whatever you need to feel the target muscle(s) for a given exercise always, and minimize potentially injurious movement arcs when cheating.

When it comes to rowing, arguably the dumbbell row, especially performed one arm with the other arm braced, is a more effective exercise than the barbell row, so perhaps consider changing to this as the main exercise if you just can't click with barbell rows.


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## UK2USA (Jan 30, 2016)

Jatin Bhatia said:


> I use Yates row instead of bent over rows. Can't maintain my form on that one


 Not familiar with Yates rows, can you explain?


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## Quackerz (Dec 19, 2015)

UK2USA said:


> Not familiar with Yates rows, can you explain?


 It's a slightly more upright barbell row with a supinated grip on the bar.


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## JohhnyC (Mar 16, 2015)

Kristina said:


> Each to their own.
> 
> *In MY experience, and this is where people get caught up in reading rather than doing..*. I would have never been able to develop strength to row 100kg without cheat repping. I'm aiming for 100k strict in the next few weeks (5-6 reps).
> 
> Not here to dispute your opinion, this is mine.


 Yeah i agree with that, I read too much about strict form, super strict diets and often wonder do these people actually go to the gym. From my perspective I think it depends on the exercise, a bit of cheating is fine as long as you remember why you are doing it. If you are doing it to show off how much you can lift like many do in my gym with ezbar curls bar for example, swinging the torso back and forth on all reps. That is pointless. Squats worst one of all, no-one needs to be doing 10 x 1/4 squats.

lat pulls another example, last rep or two I think you should cheat given the increasing resistance. My last 2 reps are about eye/forehead level, just to keep the pump going.

@dtlv made a very good point. I think you need to clean up form before moving up. On lat pulls, for example, if I am failing on the last rep and getting to forehead level, I just immediately drop the weight by a 1/5 or so and squeeze out another few reps . I never count these in my journal. Only possible on machines really

Point is to focus on why your lifting the weight for that particular piece of apparatus and not the actually number of kg's involved


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## EpicSquats (Mar 29, 2014)

I cheat pretty badly on barbell rows. If it's too heavy I get someone to lift it for me while I watch and drink a can of pepsi max.


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## JEE (Jun 8, 2016)

Quackerz said:


> That's what deadlifts are for.
> 
> Cheating reps on rows also has nothing to do with strength IMO, not in the general sense....... But if you want to develop explosive strength with rows then why not just do pendlay's........ :confused1:
> 
> ...





Kristina said:


> Each to their own.
> 
> In MY experience, and this is where people get caught up in reading rather than doing... I would have never been able to develop strength to row 100kg without cheat repping. I'm aiming for 100k strict in the next few weeks (5-6 reps).
> 
> Not here to dispute your opinion, this is mine.





I'mNotAPervert! said:


> Good post. I like to keep it strict to failure, then once I'm there then s**t's getting messy - cheats, half reps, you name it. Always worth considering that cheats can be combined with heavy (or extra) controlled negatives which have been proven time and time again to build strength and size.
> 
> Cheats are a powerful tool when applied wisely and safely.


 The cns and neural adaptations will happen with a bit of body English on the concentric ( the part of the lift where you cheat ) as long as you keep as near too perfect form on the negative and hold that back as hard as possible. I've always trained on my own, and found that as @Kristina said, I would not have been able too advance without employing such techniques.

B


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## Quackerz (Dec 19, 2015)

JEE said:


> The cns and neural adaptations will happen with a bit of body English on the concentric ( the part of the lift where you cheat ) as long as you keep as near too perfect form on the negative and hold that back as hard as possible. I've always trained on my own, and found that as @Kristina said, I would not have been able too advance without employing such techniques.
> 
> B


 That's great. I stick to my opinion and would say you are wrong.

Do you bounce the bar off your chest when you bench also? Or hitch when you deadlift? It's ego lifting, pure and simple.

Why can't you simply periodize your progression?


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## nWo (Mar 25, 2014)

JEE said:


> The cns and neural adaptations will happen with a bit of body English on the concentric ( the part of the lift where you cheat ) as long as you keep as near too perfect form on the negative and hold that back as hard as possible. I've always trained on my own, and found that as @Kristina said, I would not have been able too advance without employing such techniques.
> 
> B





Quackerz said:


> That's great. I stick to my opinion and would say you are wrong.
> 
> Do you bounce the bar off your chest when you bench also? Or hitch when you deadlift? It's ego lifting, pure and simple.
> 
> Why can't you simply periodize your progression?


 I agree with both of your points to a degree. Cheat reps are a tool to be used, not abused. On one hand, adding them in here and there, at the end of a set or even the occasional set of cheats for the sole purpose of heavy negative rep training is a very powerful tool to aid progress when done correctly; however, one's program shouldn't be based around them alone, and training with s**t form all the time even when you're controlling your negatives very strictly isn't a smart way to train - the positive part of the rep also builds muscle and jerking the weight up takes stress off of the muscle. Conversely, refusing to use them outright on the premise of "strict is best" when they possess several benefits, isn't going to help you.

As I say, I find it best when they're either used at the end of a set to failure to take the muscle beyond the point of failure, or maybe a few sets of cheats as a last exercise when the muscle is already heavily worked; or here and there to get some heavy negative training in, which in itself is taxing on the CNS and should only be done periodically.


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## Quackerz (Dec 19, 2015)

I'mNotAPervert! said:


> I agree with both of your points to a degree. Cheat reps are a tool to be used, not abused. On one hand, adding them in here and there, at the end of a set or even the occasional set of cheats for the sole purpose of heavy negative rep training is a very powerful tool to aid progress when done correctly; however, one's program shouldn't be based around them alone, and training with s**t form all the time even when you're controlling your negatives very strictly isn't a smart way to train - the positive part of the rep also builds muscle and jerking the weight up takes stress off of the muscle. Conversely, refusing to use them outright on the premise of "strict is best" when they possess several benefits, isn't going to help you.
> 
> As I say, I find it best when they're either used at the end of a set to failure to take the muscle beyond the point of failure, or maybe a few sets of cheats as a last exercise when the muscle is already heavily worked; or here and there to get some heavy negative training in, which in itself is taxing on the CNS and should only be done periodically.


 I don't doubt that it works, simply that I think there is a better way of doing it, you do not progress in this manner with any other exercise, why rows?

I simply think a periodized approach would work IMO. Cheating works despite how you train, not because of it.


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## DLTBB (Jan 26, 2015)

Kristina said:


> Merit to both. I personally like to pyramid up and down again for both strict volume sets and heavy cheat rows. Just my opinion and preference to training approach; brutal strength won;t be happening if all you do is strict-everything. There's a time and a place for both and although some won't care about strength, I think it makes all the difference in optimising growth potential. But whatever works for you is always the best way to go.


 This TBH.


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## Heavyassweights (Jan 18, 2014)

my old friend scott fancies is an advocate of extreme weight to to prepare the muscle

i agree that you cant be strict with everything and in the same breath not all exercises are suitable for all


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## Quackerz (Dec 19, 2015)

Why are cheat rows hailed so much yet this is considered unacceptable then?











Exact same principal.


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## EpicSquats (Mar 29, 2014)

Quackerz said:


> Why are cheat rows hailed so much yet this is considered unacceptable then?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 Crossfit pullups aren't called "cheat pullups". Crossfitters just call them pullups. And they're almost guaranteed to fvck your rotator cuffs.

As for that other video of that guy doing bench press, he is clearly a hero and deserves some sort of award, like a belly shaped trophy or something.


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## Quackerz (Dec 19, 2015)

EpicSquats said:


> Crossfit pullups aren't called "cheat pullups". Crossfitters just call them pullups. And they're almost guaranteed to fvck your rotator cuffs.
> 
> As for that other video of that guy doing bench press, he is clearly a hero and deserves some sort of award, like a belly shaped trophy or something.


 An overdramatised example but an example none less. Why rows but not anything else? It's silly.


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## DLTBB (Jan 26, 2015)

I don't think anybody is suggesting you should intentionally go out of your way to cheat reps or use bad form, they're just saying that they think it's acceptable to use looser form or a little bit of momentum on your heavier sets - by which point you would have done a number of lighter sets with strict form anyway. It's worked for me when I've tried it anyway.


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## nWo (Mar 25, 2014)

Quackerz said:


> I don't doubt that it works, simply that I think there is a better way of doing it, you do not progress in this manner with any other exercise, why rows?
> 
> I simply think a periodized approach would work IMO. Cheating works despite how you train, not because of it.


 It can be used with all manner of exercise, it's just best to be used where safe. Rows, curls, shoulder presses - any exercise where you can safely use momentum from other muscles - are suitable, whereas stuff like the bench press isn't at all safe. As I say, it's just a method of going beyond failure or the occasional bit of heavy negative training.

8:55 in this video shows how this premise is put into practice. Again, it's used with exercises only where it's safe and practical:


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## Quackerz (Dec 19, 2015)

I'll simply leave it as two separate opinions. All this is going to do is go backwards and forwards otherwise.

Edit: Could not leave this alone.


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## Quackerz (Dec 19, 2015)

I'mNotAPervert! said:


> I agree with both of your points to a degree. Cheat reps are a tool to be used, not abused. On one hand, adding them in here and there, at the end of a set or even the occasional set of cheats for the sole purpose of heavy negative rep training is a very powerful tool to aid progress when done correctly; however, one's program shouldn't be based around them alone, and training with s**t form all the time even when you're controlling your negatives very strictly isn't a smart way to train - the positive part of the rep also builds muscle and jerking the weight up takes stress off of the muscle. Conversely, refusing to use them outright on the premise of "strict is best" when they possess several benefits, isn't going to help you.
> 
> As I say, I find it best when they're either used at the end of a set to failure to take the muscle beyond the point of failure, or maybe a few sets of cheats as a last exercise when the muscle is already heavily worked; or here and there to get some heavy negative training in, which in itself is taxing on the CNS and should only be done periodically.


 Just re-reading this, what do you mean by 'the positive portion of the rep also builds muscle'? The concentric portion of the lift is where the most amount of fibres are recruited to begin with, hence stimulating more growth as you are stimulating more fibres, not sure what you mean by this?


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## nWo (Mar 25, 2014)

Quackerz said:


> Just re-reading this, what do you mean by 'the positive portion of the rep also builds muscle'? The concentric portion of the lift is where the most amount of fibres are recruited to begin with, hence stimulating more growth as you are stimulating more fibres, not sure what you mean by this?


 Sort the point I was making, mate - people that cheat the weight up on every set are missing an important part of the rep, just as much as those that just drop the weight after each positive. Though, both the eccentric and concentric are important, which is why it's beneficial to firstly not make a habit of ego lifting, but secondly not overlook cheats as a tool for overloading on negative reps as they're often overlooked as an effective part of a rep. Your negative strength is always going to be stronger than your positive strength, hence cheats at the end of a set to positive failure being useful in also exhausting your eccentric strength as well as concentric.


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## Quackerz (Dec 19, 2015)

I'mNotAPervert! said:


> Sort the point I was making, mate - people that cheat the weight up on every set are missing an important part of the rep, just as much as those that just drop the weight after each positive. Though, both the eccentric and concentric are important, which is why it's beneficial to firstly not make a habit of ego lifting, but secondly not overlook cheats as a tool for overloading on negative reps as they're often overlooked as an effective part of a rep. Your negative strength is always going to be stronger than your positive strength, hence cheats at the end of a set to positive failure being useful in also exhausting your eccentric strength as well as concentric.


 I have never seen people perform cheat rows with a slower negative than a regular strict row. Not saying people don't do it, but they would have to be an extreme exception.


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## nWo (Mar 25, 2014)

Quackerz said:


> I have never seen people perform cheat rows with a slower negative than a regular strict row. Not saying people don't do it, but they would have to be an extreme exception.


 It's not about a slower negative, it's about extra negatives or heavier negatives. I can't speak for everyone of course, some people just spend years training with s**t form and not getting much bigger as time goes by and again I'm not condoning such a thing, but to say that these things don't have their place is being very closed-minded IMO. I've always had my best progress training with fewer sets with intensity techniques tacked on the end of my last sets (cheats being one of these techniques) than I have training on a middle-of-the-road program. Not necessarily saying it's THE best approach, - rather, touting it as an effective tried & trusted approach for myself, many I've spoken to as well as some of the most successful bodybuilders of all time.


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## Quackerz (Dec 19, 2015)

I'mNotAPervert! said:


> It's not about a slower negative, it's about extra negatives or heavier negatives. I can't speak for everyone of course, some people just spend years training with s**t form and not getting much bigger as time goes by and again I'm not condoning such a thing, but to say that these things don't have their place is being very closed-minded IMO. I've always had my best progress training with fewer sets with intensity techniques tacked on the end of my last sets (cheats being one of these techniques) than I have training on a middle-of-the-road program. Not necessarily saying it's THE best approach, - rather, touting it as an effective tried & trusted approach for myself, many I've spoken to as well as some of the most successful bodybuilders of all time.


 I would just do a drop set and keep the form strict, just seems like a more intelligent approach personally if you wanted to train beyond failure, you would be able to contact the actual muscle more also.

For the record when in reference to resistance training intensity refers to the % of your 1RM you are working at. Not how hard you train, I understand where you are coming from though.

I just see no logical scientific reason for the idea that cheat rows make a good form of overload for training beyond failure. Just because something works it does not make it optimal.

I have seen PLers use these to good effect to help with their lockout due it being mostly a glute and hamstring dominant movement due to the motions but if you want to overload your upper back just do snatch grip block pulls, can't beat them really. You are barely using your Lats doing these so it's not worth a mention either, why not just do them properly?


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## nWo (Mar 25, 2014)

Quackerz said:


> I would just do a drop set and keep the form strict, just seems like a more intelligent approach personally if you wanted to train beyond failure, you would be able to contact the actual muscle more also.
> 
> For the record when in reference to resistance training intensity refers to the % of your 1RM you are working at. Not how hard you train, I understand where you are coming from though.
> 
> ...


 Dropsets are great, but why limit yourself to one technique when there are several to utilise, not only to get the benefits of several techniques but also to keep things interesting?

Literally speaking, yes. That also coincides with how closely you train to failure, though - if one person does a set of 6 reps with a Rate of Perceived Exertion of 7 or 8, and next workout does a set of 6 with an RPE of 9 or 10, the weight used on the set with the higher RPE is going to be heavier. Thus, greater intensity. The term RPE is used when solely referring to how hard you train on a given workset, but as an overall description using the word intensity is fitting. Stuff like dropsets, cheats, rest pause etc have been referred to as intensity techniques for decades, it's nothing new.

If it works, it works. What is optimal anyway? There's no one approach that fits all, if you're happy with the results from something that's being done in a safe manner then that sounds pretty optimal to me.

If a cheat is done correctly then the muscle that would normally primarily be worked would still be assisting - in the case that they're used as a set-extender, the lats in the case of rows would already be heavily worked, and would then still take a further pounding with the extra reps, plus the negative strength is then being exhausted too, completely squeezing every last ounce out of the muscle.


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## Quackerz (Dec 19, 2015)

I'mNotAPervert! said:


> Dropsets are great, but why limit yourself to one technique when there are several to utilise, not only to get the benefits of several techniques but also to keep things interesting?
> 
> Literally speaking, yes. That also coincides with how closely you train to failure, though - if one person does a set of 6 reps with a Rate of Perceived Exertion of 7 or 8, and next workout does a set of 6 with an RPE of 9 or 10, the weight used on the set with the higher RPE is going to be heavier. Thus, greater intensity. The term RPE is used when solely referring to how hard you train on a given workset, but as an overall description using the word intensity is fitting. Stuff like dropsets, cheats, rest pause etc have been referred to as intensity techniques for decades, it's nothing new.
> 
> ...


 Exactly my point, you cannot fully contract your back properly whilst performing cheat reps........... this is my point, all you are doing is aimlessly flailing a weight around. You are using mainly your glutes and hamstrings for the most part to initiate the rep, and if this is the case IMO the weight is certainly too heavy to be able to hold a decent contraction.......

RPE is a meaningless concept as far as training beyond failure is concerned. There is nothing to gauge it off and has no meaning in this discussion.

As for the blood and guts episodes I do not see him cheating his rows here, slow and controlled with a nice contraction, just and observation...........


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## DappaDonDave (Dec 2, 2013)

Quackerz said:


> IMO you should be squeezing and contracting the muscle on the concentric, you should not be able to do this if you cheat the rep. It's the same thing thing as when you see people flailing dumbbells around the gym trying to do curls...... it's not going to get you very far. You want to work the muscles involved, not ego lift.


 I prefer the cable machine for curls, constant tension baby.

I also only do DB row, cheating only if I want to ego-lift. Otherwise a controlled lifting is best.


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## Quackerz (Dec 19, 2015)

DappaDonDave said:


> I prefer the cable machine for curls, constant tension baby.
> 
> I also only do DB row, cheating only if I want to ego-lift. Otherwise a controlled lifting is best.


 This is why your the dappa don.


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## theBEAST2002 (Oct 16, 2011)

The back is a very hard area to train to achieve massive amounts of muscle mass and development. However, unless your on your last few reps of your working set I do not condone cheating.

If you want to shift massive weights then try One Arm Machine Rows. Preferably the lever version and not the low pullie version. Get yourself very secure, sweep your arm out to a 45 degree angle for Lat, Trap and Rhomboid development or into your waist for Lat emphasism.


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## Quackerz (Dec 19, 2015)

theBEAST2002 said:


> The back is a very hard area to train to achieve massive amounts of muscle mass and development. However, unless your on your last few reps of your working set I do not condone cheating.
> 
> If you want to shift massive weights then try One Arm Machine Rows. Preferably the lever version and not the low pullie version. Get yourself very secure, sweep your arm out to a 45 degree angle for Lat, Trap and Rhomboid development or into your waist for Lat emphasism.


 Would this be as beneficial on a cable machine with one handed attachment? Curious as I'm going into pure mass phase for my upper body for the next few months. Trying to figure my way around it.


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## theBEAST2002 (Oct 16, 2011)

Quackerz said:


> Would this be as beneficial on a cable machine with one handed attachment? Curious as I'm going into pure mass phase for my upper body for the next few months. Trying to figure my way around it.


 Not in my experience as people start cheating, where as a chest supported machine makes it far harder to cheat.


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## Quackerz (Dec 19, 2015)

theBEAST2002 said:


> Not in my experience as people start cheating, where as a chest supported machine makes it far harder to cheat.


 Reason I like them also, I prefer chest supported rows at 30 degrees with dumbbells with a supine grip. I tend to feel it more than any other form of row.


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## theBEAST2002 (Oct 16, 2011)

Quackerz said:


> Reason I like them also, I prefer chest supported rows at 30 degrees with dumbbells with a supine grip. I tend to feel it more than any other form of row.


 I have done this many times.


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## GetOffMyCloud (Sep 10, 2016)

JohhnyC said:


> always think you can cheat a bit on *the last rep or two *in some exercises like barbell row but not the early reps, otherwise weight is too heavy.
> 
> I just try bear in mind that its the muscles that need to be stimulated and put under load not what actual weight you can lift, that is the key point.
> 
> Some people are down right daft like on the lat pull, rocking their torso wildly back, serves no purpose but making you look like a tool


 This. I generally get a good 6 reps in with perfect form then struggle on the last two. I'll stay at that weight until I cN do 8 or 10 perfectly then up it.

Side lateral raises are the worst I've seen for this - seen blokes doing the most demented side lateral raises imaginable that would no where near hit the medial delt. I let my form lapse but only for the last few reps when I can't hold the weight with good form. It's a version of drop setting I guess.


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## Frost_uk (Sep 1, 2014)

I use Pendlay Rows with a manageable weight, a weight that I can hold and squeeze at the top of the movement, back is one area I'd rather not cheat on


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## 19072 (Aug 11, 2010)

I use this machine for rows.


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