# What is 'Eating Clean'



## barsnack (Mar 12, 2011)

Where is the line crossed, from eating clean, to, well, not eating clean (i.e. dirty bulk)....Reason being...just put my diet together for the week, doing a bulk, but eating as clean as possible (no takeaway, no sweets or crisps)....one of my meals are Fajitas....now my housemates girlfriend, who works out, told me because I stick El Paso chili sauce on it, and use ordinary white Wraps, it isn't eating clean.....same with my chili con carne, as I stick a jar of Chilli Con Carne sauce onto the mince, he says its also isn't eating clean......maybe he's just being a ****ing ****....so what is the line between clean and erm, not so clean dieting


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## TrailerParkBoy (Sep 20, 2011)

suppose everyone has there own take on "eating clean" because there isnt a definition of it but what your doing sounds ok to me


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## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

No processed foods.


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## G-man99 (Jul 15, 2008)

barsnack said:


> Where is the line crossed, from eating clean, to, well, not eating clean (i.e. dirty bulk)....Reason being...just put my diet together for the week, doing a bulk, but eating as clean as possible (no takeaway, no sweets or crisps)....one of my meals are Fajitas....now my housemates girlfriend, who works out, told me because I stick El Paso chili sauce on it, and use ordinary white Wraps, it isn't eating clean.....same with my chili con carne, as I stick a jar of Chilli Con Carne sauce onto the mince, he says its also isn't eating clean......maybe he's just being a ****ing ****....so what is the line between clean and erm, not so clean dieting


I eat similar to you mate and see it as reasonably clean with no issues.

I'm guessing your not looking to get sub 10% bf, so why eat stuff that you really don't like and struggle to keep the diet going.


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## Frandeman (Mar 24, 2014)

Start do it yourself

Cheaper and healthier

Taste beter too and women love when you can cook

More time thou


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## coke (Jan 17, 2015)

In the grand scheme of things there is no eating clean or eating dirty, just foods that are more nutritious than others. If you are hitting your macros and calories then dont worry if you eat slightly less nutritious foods i.e white vs wholegrain etc. The best eating plan is the one you can stick to day in day out!


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## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

G-man99 said:


> I eat similar to you mate and see it as reasonably clean with no issues.
> 
> I'm guessing your not looking to get sub 10% bf, so why eat stuff that you really don't like and struggle to keep the diet going.


You can get to 10% eating a normal western diet, junk and all, you dont even have to eat like an athlete.


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## barsnack (Mar 12, 2011)

G-man99 said:


> I eat similar to you mate and see it as reasonably clean with no issues.
> 
> I'm guessing your not looking to get sub 10% bf, so why eat stuff that you really don't like and struggle to keep the diet going.


good to hear, and naw im currently bulking, so getting down to 10% is on the agenda ....the Fajitas / Chilli Con Carne I make are great ways too get the added calories I need in one sitting, while being very high in protein, as I cant seem to manage any more than 4 meals per day


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## TrailerParkBoy (Sep 20, 2011)

Frandeman said:


> *Start do it yourself*
> 
> Cheaper and healthier
> 
> ...


whats that?


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## sneeky_dave (Apr 2, 2013)

banzi said:


> No processed foods.


Bang on.


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## naturalun (Mar 21, 2014)

Eating clean to me basically means homemade meals & within macronutrients.

As long as you don't eat turkey dinosaurs and french fries every meal then Ya good to go.


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## Frandeman (Mar 24, 2014)

banzi said:


> You can get to 10% eating a normal western diet, junk and all, you dont even have to eat like an athlete.


Pls show me how..a diet??

Because I [email protected] struggle srs

Love me food and foods loves me


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## Frandeman (Mar 24, 2014)

safc49 said:


> whats that?


Cooking??? Its nice man


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## nWo (Mar 25, 2014)

I think as long as you avoid things that are obviously unhealthy (sweets/cakes, chips, burgers, pasties and other lardy processed foods) then you're all good.


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## TrailerParkBoy (Sep 20, 2011)

Frandeman said:


> Cooking??? Its nice man


oh right. the way it was typed i thought it was some type of method or programme to follow lol


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## Frandeman (Mar 24, 2014)

And free-range or organic. food is no more beneficial for us either...waste of money


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## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

banzi said:


> No processed foods.


This


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## Boshlop (Apr 1, 2012)

no real definition, but for me its things that taste how they should, , chicken that taste fresh instead of pumped up salt roll ****, fruit that taste of the fruit and not the sugar and syrup its drown in.

if you said smart eating then it would be about the numbers, but clean is about the chemicals more than the numbers


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## Little_Jay (Feb 6, 2006)

v low to no sodium... if it matches that criteria itll most probs be clean IMO


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## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

Frandeman said:


> Pls show me how..a diet??
> 
> Because I [email protected] struggle srs
> 
> *Love me food* and foods loves me


Thats the problem.


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## Frandeman (Mar 24, 2014)

banzi said:


> Thats the problem.


Thats what makes me big

Dieting is to hard... Eating is easy


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## nWo (Mar 25, 2014)

Use my dinner tonight as an example of "dirty eating" :lol:

View attachment 164562


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## TommyBananas (Nov 23, 2014)

A non-existant thing people try and describe.


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## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

TommyBananas said:


> Something idiots say and try and describe.


I must bean idiot then.


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## NovemberDelta (Apr 17, 2011)

banzi said:


> Thats the problem.


Why don't you just answer the question of how most people can get to 10 pc with junk? Are you just talking about a deficit?


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## TommyBananas (Nov 23, 2014)

FelonE said:


> I must bean idiot then.


Well, FelonE you know yourself  biscuit eater when cutting.

The Dirt on Clean Eating | Wannabebig

10 Aesthetic Naturals That Use IIFYM or Flexible Dieting - Obviously natural/or not makes no difference.






Not entirely relevant, but someone who switched from clean eating - a competitor


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## TommyBananas (Nov 23, 2014)

NovemberDelta said:


> Why don't you just answer the question of how most people can get to 10 pc with junk? Are you just talking about a deficit?


A deficit while hitting macros with any foods, will allow you to get to any % of bodyfat, including. 3-4-5-6% - Banzi just doesn't understand thermodynamics fully. I posted lots of links above.

Alberto Nunez from 3DMJ someone who is as shredded/if not more than everyone here. A huge follower of IIFYM.


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## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

TommyBananas said:


> Well, FelonE you know yourself  biscuit eater when cutting.
> 
> The Dirt on Clean Eating | Wannabebig
> 
> ...


I'm not this time mate. Same meals everyday.


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## DaveCW (Dec 9, 2013)

barsnack said:


> Where is the line crossed, from eating clean, to, well, not eating clean (i.e. dirty bulk)....Reason being...just put my diet together for the week, doing a bulk, but eating as clean as possible (no takeaway, no sweets or crisps)....one of my meals are Fajitas....now my housemates girlfriend, who works out, told me because I stick El Paso chili sauce on it, and use ordinary white Wraps, it isn't eating clean.....same with my chili con carne, as I stick a jar of Chilli Con Carne sauce onto the mince, he says its also isn't eating clean......maybe he's just being a ****ing ****....so what is the line between clean and erm, not so clean dieting


As long as the sauces and such don't have a high fat and sugar content your fine.

Just swap the white wraps out for wholegrain or whatever else you deem healthier.

Ps. Tell housemate to bin her, she's showing signs already :thumbup1:


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## TommyBananas (Nov 23, 2014)

FelonE said:


> I'm not this time mate. Same meals everyday.


That's fine. Doesn't mean it doesn't work, lol.


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## TommyBananas (Nov 23, 2014)

DaveCW said:


> As long as the sauces and such don't have a high fat and sugar content your fine.
> 
> Just swap the white wraps out for wholegrain or whatever else you deem healthier.
> 
> Ps. Tell housemate to bin her, she's showing signs already :thumbup1:


High fat and sugar has nothing to do with fat loss.

White wraps are fine.


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## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

TommyBananas said:


> That's fine. Doesn't mean it doesn't work, lol.


No, they both work.


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## MrTwisted (Sep 14, 2014)

Frandeman said:


> Start do it yourself
> 
> Cheaper and healthier
> 
> ...


Doesn't take much more time to make a chilli from scratch(ish)

1 carton passatta

1 tin chopped tomatoes

1 tin kidney beans in chilli sauce (or just kidney beans if the sauce is too dirty)

Mince

Sweet peppers

Onion

tsp chilli flakes

3 tbsp tabasco

Bosh.


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## TommyBananas (Nov 23, 2014)

FelonE said:


> No, they both work.


Exactly!


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## biggestdog2007 (Apr 7, 2010)

Clean to me is:

Home made food using lean cuts of meat, good quality carbs, plenty of fruit and vege and sensible sauce options. Home made fajitas and chilly are both fine as far as im concerned, a mcdonalds not so much.

At the end of the day if the macros are the same you shouldnt see any body composition differences, but cleaner foods generally keep you fuller and satisfied for longer and give you a cleaner energy than junk food.


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## TELBOR (Feb 20, 2012)

Here we go again


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## NovemberDelta (Apr 17, 2011)

TommyBananas said:


> A deficit while hitting macros with any foods, will allow you to get to any % of bodyfat, including. 3-4-5-6% - Banzi just doesn't understand thermodynamics fully. I posted lots of links above.
> 
> Alberto Nunez from 3DMJ someone who is as shredded/if not more than everyone here. A huge follower of IIFYM.


I agree, I am fully in agreement with flexible dieting. Getting adequate protein or not eating too much fat would not be possible if eating only junk food, I don't think. IIFYM is a different matter from simply being in a caloric deficit.


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## TommyBananas (Nov 23, 2014)

NovemberDelta said:


> I agree, I am fully in agreement with flexible dieting. Getting adequate protein or not eating too much fat would not be possible if eating only junk food, I don't think. IIFYM is a different matter.


Indeed. People think IIFYM is eating junk all the time, and while it is possible (if you used a lot of whey etc) to hit macros without eating anything 'good' - anyone with a brain would not do this.

80/20 is a good place to be imo.

Or even the days when you do just want mostly junk and hit macros, it still works without the guilt and results continue without any problem!


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## Smitch (Dec 29, 2008)

I used to try and eat "clean", nowadays I obviously don't live off junk food but eat pretty normally and just make sure I get enough protein, fats, carbs etc and I look better than I used to when I was more anal about food.

People like me who like crap food will ultimately fail if they try and force themselves to live off chicken, rice and other boring sh1t so it's easier just to take a sensible approach that you know you can adhere to that will still yield results.


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## Frandeman (Mar 24, 2014)

MrTwisted said:


> Doesn't take much more time to make a chilli from scratch(ish)
> 
> 1 carton passatta
> 
> ...


You are telling me???

Been a chef for 14 years haha

Know how to make chilli con carne


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## MrTwisted (Sep 14, 2014)

Frandeman said:


> You are telling me???
> 
> Been a chef for 14 years haha
> 
> Know how to make chilli con carne


Wasn't telling you. Just showing everyone it doesn't take very long as you said takes more time.


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## G-man99 (Jul 15, 2008)

These people stating no processed food, are you fully aware of the term processed??

Any food that has been transformed from it's original state is deemed as processed, any salt, chemicals, additives etc are processed.

Tinned veg is processed etc etc

Milk is processed, whey, the list is endless in terms of people believing it isn't processed food


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## lotus (May 30, 2009)

If people manage to understand flexible dieting it becomes so easy , just gets a bad rep from people who don't understand it or use it as an excuse to eat sh1t all the time . Never going to be easy for people to admit they can get the same results from eating within reason what they want when they've been eating the same monotonous foods for the last x amount of years


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## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

NovemberDelta said:


> Why don't you just answer the question of how most people can get to 10 pc with junk? Are you just talking about a deficit?


I don't eat like a bodybuilder , I just dont eat masses of food, I can stay at 10/11%, year round, if I want to get down I diet hard for 4-6 weeks and get to 8% easily.

And yes, its just about eating in a deficit.


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## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

TommyBananas said:


> *A deficit while hitting macros with any foods, will allow you to get to any % of bodyfat, including. 3-4-5-6% - Banzi just doesn't understand thermodynamics fully.* I posted lots of links above.
> 
> Alberto Nunez from 3DMJ someone who is as shredded/if not more than everyone here. A huge follower of IIFYM.


So you keep saying

Lets see, try and get yourself down to 5% BF just eating what you like as long as it fits your macros

When you have done it get back to us

Im sick and tired of fat fuks who have never even been 8% let alone 5 telling people how easy it is.

5% takes suffering mate.


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## TommyBananas (Nov 23, 2014)

banzi said:


> So you keep saying
> 
> Lets see, try and get yourself down to 5% BF just eating what you like as long as it fits your macros
> 
> ...


Now go look at all the links and videos of competitors who have won shows and tell me it can't be done. End of story.

Layne Norton is a much smarter individual than you are. With a hefty amount of achievements - won shows, won PL comps and you're telling me he is wrong? 

The other video I posted, Lazarus Ross - sounded like you, now listen to him. As he said, it's really difficult to hear after being a slave to eating 'clean' previously and people don't want to admit it to themselves and their ego clouds their judgement.

But you won't watch them, or read the links - cause of your ego.


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## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

TommyBananas said:


> *Now go look at all the links and videos of competitors who have won shows and tell me it can't be done. End of story.*
> 
> Layne Norton is a much smarter individual than you are. With a hefty amount of achievements - won shows, won PL comps and you're telling me he is wrong?
> 
> ...


It will be end of story when you do it yourself, and not until.

As for Layne Norton, how many of the people who follow his principles look like him when hes in shape?


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## TommyBananas (Nov 23, 2014)

banzi said:


> It will be end of story when you do it yourself, and not until.


No it won't, because I don't care about being lean. Go check my log. I dieted down fairly lean, I don't enjoy it, it doesn't suit my goals.

There is plenty, and by plenty I mean endless amounts of evidence, qualified people, bodybuilders and so on that follow flexible dieting.

The burden of proof is on you to prove it doesn't work, but you can't and won't ever. So stop with your broscience, and your ego and your weird posting habits and move along until you can show me evidence that it doesn't work, I've provided plenty for you to prove it does - competitors included who are in 20x better shape than you are, with pro cards.


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## barsnack (Mar 12, 2011)

TommyBananas said:


> Now go look at all the links and videos of competitors who have won shows and tell me it can't be done. End of story.
> 
> *Layne Norton is a much smarter individual than you are. With a hefty amount of achievements - won shows, won PL comps and you're telling me he is wrong*?
> 
> ...


I know where your going to be sending your Valentines Day too this year


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## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

TommyBananas said:


> No it won't, because I don't care about being lean. Go check my log. I dieted down fairly lean, I don't enjoy it, it doesn't suit my goals.
> 
> There is plenty, and by plenty I mean endless amounts of evidence, qualified people, bodybuilders and so on that follow flexible dieting.
> 
> The burden of proof is on you to prove it doesn't work, but you can't and won't ever. So stop with your broscience, and your ego and your weird posting habits and move along until you can show me evidence that it doesn't work, I've provided plenty for you to prove it does - competitors included who are in 20x better shape than you are, with pro cards.


So, you have no idea if it takes more dedication and a harder/stricter diet to hit 5%.

Thought not.

Stop quoting what you think other people do to hit 5%, try it yourself, because if it doesn't work for you , whatever cack they are selling is irrelevant.


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## TommyBananas (Nov 23, 2014)

banzi said:


> So, you have no idea if it takes more dedication and a harder/stricter diet to hit 5%.
> 
> Thought not.
> 
> Stop quoting what you think other people do to hit 5%, try it yourself, because if it doesn't work for you , whatever cack they are selling is irrelevant.


This is not about if I have dedication, or if its harder.

This is about food choices not mattering as long as macros are met.

You're clinging on to straws now and you won't admit you're wrong because you think it makes you weak or your ego is damaged.

This conversation is over. I look forward to the evidence you have of flexible dieting not working the same as "clean eating".


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## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

TommyBananas said:


> This is not about if I have dedication, or if its harder.
> 
> This is about food choices not mattering as long as macros are met.
> 
> ...


The evidence is you cant hit 5% on IIFMM.

I know from experience that you can only get so far eating slack, you have to buckle down and suffer to hit sub 6%

you only have the fact you cant diet without having the luxury of eating junk.


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## TommyBananas (Nov 23, 2014)

banzi said:


> The evidence is you cant hit 5% on IIFMM.


Keep clinging bruh.


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## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

TommyBananas said:


> Keep clinging bruh.


My skin clings to my abs when I diet, yours hangs over your belt


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## TommyBananas (Nov 23, 2014)

banzi said:


> My skin clings to my abs when I diet, yours hangs over your belt


Very relevant to the conversation. This wasn't even up for debate anyway - you could never 'win' the argument lol, because science > you.


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## TommyBananas (Nov 23, 2014)

I'd also like to point out, I've been mature the entire time having this discussion and you try and throw personal insults as a last resort because you have nothing else to say.


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## Smitch (Dec 29, 2008)

Had someone telling me the other night how he eats clean, he was proud of the fact, and the fact that he was 6ft 3 with abs at 12.5 stone.

If he didn't have abs at that weight and height I'd be concerned, he needs a decent fvcking meal inside him. :lol:


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## saxondale (Nov 11, 2012)

TommyBananas said:


> Now go look at all the links and videos of competitors who have won shows and tell me it can't be done. End of story.
> 
> Layne Norton is a much smarter individual than you are. With a hefty amount of achievements - won shows, won PL comps and you're telling me he is wrong?
> 
> ...


we`re saying - lets see you do it mate not some guy of the internet.


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## TommyBananas (Nov 23, 2014)

saxondale said:


> we`re saying - lets see you do it mate not some guy of the internet.


It doesn't matter what I do, it's completely irrelevant to this topic.


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## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

TommyBananas said:


> I'd also like to point out, I've been mature the entire time having this discussion and you try and throw personal insults as a last resort because you have nothing else to say.


Look mate, if its just a matter of macros, why dont you just count macros and go on a cal deficit and see how far you can get down, its not hard, you can have a big mac and chocolate every day as long as it fits your macros.

Surely its not hard?

I have never ben a big believer in science and studies when it comes to how me as an indvidual responds to outside influences/

A study saying 99 out of a hundred people lose weight eating junk is irrelevant if you are Mr 100


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## sneeky_dave (Apr 2, 2013)

TommyBananas said:


> I'd also like to point out, I've been mature the entire time having this discussion and you try and throw personal insults as a last resort because you have nothing else to say.


Hand the shiitting chuff on!! Haven't you just had a warning about calling people names because they disagreed with you?

*In trots Tommy nanas on his great white steed*


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## TommyBananas (Nov 23, 2014)

banzi said:


> Look mate, if its just a matter of macros, why dont you just count macros and go on a cal deficit and see how far you can get down, its not hard, you can have a big mac and chocolate every day as long as it fits your macros.
> 
> Surely its not hard?
> 
> ...


Thermodynamics is not a study.

Too bad you don't believe in science, I should listen to your anecdote instead right? No.

Why would I go into a calorie deficit and compromise my goals and lose some of my strength when thats the complete opposite of what I want to do?

Either go read all the links, watch the videos, or stop replying - because if anyone takes the time to ACTUALLY do that, they and you, yourself will realise how uneducated on the topic you actually are.


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## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

TommyBananas said:


> It doesn't matter what I do, it's completely irrelevant to this topic.


No it isn't, its the entire point, just because someone claims it works for them has no bearing on if it works for you.

You say it works but have ZERO evidence.


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## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

Smitch said:


> Had someone telling me the other night how he eats clean, he was proud of the fact, and the fact that he was 6ft 3 with abs at 12.5 stone.
> 
> If he didn't have abs at that weight and height I'd be concerned, he needs a decent fvcking meal inside him. :lol:


When you're bigger getting the abs out is more challenging. Anyone can not eat and have abs.


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## TommyBananas (Nov 23, 2014)

sneeky_dave said:


> Hand the shiitting chuff on!! Haven't you just had a warning about calling people names because they disagreed with you?
> 
> *In trots Tommy nanas on his great white steed*


Exactly the reason as to why after the warning; I ensured I didn't call anyone anything and stayed mature through the entire discussion? lol...


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## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

TommyBananas said:


> Thermodynamics is not a study.
> 
> Too bad you don't believe in science, I should listen to your anecdote instead right? No.
> 
> ...


Great post, yet you cant hit 5%, why is that..Oh yes, you just dont want to.


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## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

FelonE said:


> When you're bigger getting the abs out is more challenging. Anyone can not eat and have abs.


Really?

Doesnt having a lot of muscle give you a higher BMR?


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## Major Eyeswater (Nov 2, 2013)

TommyBananas said:


> Indeed. People think IIFYM is eating junk all the time, and while it is possible (if you used a lot of whey etc) to hit macros without eating anything 'good' - anyone with a brain would not do this.


People argue against IIFYM by using the strawman argument 'you can't just hit your macro targets with whey, lard & haribos & expect to stay healthy'

Well of course not, and IIFYM never suggests this. The idea behind the protocol is that provided the majority of your intake is from wholefoods and that all your micronutrient bases are covered, then a bit of 'unclean' food isn't going to make your ar5e fall off.

My approach is to make sure my total calories & protein are in range when I average them out over the week, that the majority of my food is good wholesome stuff, and that I've got plenty of veggies going in. I prefer higher carbs than fat, but my normal food-choices take care of that, and if one day comes out with more fat calories than carbs I don't give it a second thought.

I'm not a big fan of a lot of processed food - I find much of it too salty so don't eat much of it. But of I fancy pizza for dinner, or if I'm out and the only thing available is a greaseburger, then that's what I'll eat.


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## TommyBananas (Nov 23, 2014)

banzi said:


> No it isn't, its the entire point, just because someone claims it works for them has no bearing on if it works for you.
> 
> You say it works but have ZERO evidence.


Ok heres a scenario for you.

Going from 30% bodyfat to 25% bodyfat. Calorie deficit, macros hit.

Going from 15-10% the exact same way..

You keep mentioning this silly number 10% as if Thor comes down, attaches a magical "can't lose anymore fat" belt around you? Is that what happens?

No. Thermodynamics, banzi.

There are thousands of people who follow flexible dieting, also, which pubmed has a few studies SHOWING that flexible dieting worked for contest prep, I will try and find them at some point - The Nadolsky brothers did one as far as I'm aware, two doctors in the US who are shredded to the bone who advocate 'flexible' dieting.

Look, your argument is pointless because you refuse to look at evidence, competitors or other people doing it. Enjoy.


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## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

banzi said:


> Really?
> 
> Doesnt having a lot of muscle give you a higher BMR?


Ffs lol yes. What I'm saying is when you've got more muscle then you're dieting is more challenging to try and keep it while cutting fat whereas if you're skinny with abs holding on to hard earnt muscle is less of a concern.


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## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

TommyBananas said:


> Ok heres a scenario for you.
> 
> Going from 30% bodyfat to 25% bodyfat. Calorie deficit, macros hit.
> 
> ...


YADDA, YADDA ,YADDA

"This person does this and this person does that"

All that garbage is irrelevant to you, you need to do it yourself to know if it works, FOR YOU.


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## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

I've been in both situations


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## barsnack (Mar 12, 2011)

banzi said:


> My skin clings to my abs when I diet, yours hangs over your belt



View attachment 164566


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## TommyBananas (Nov 23, 2014)

Major Eyeswater said:


> People argue against IIFYM by using the strawman argument 'you can't just hit your macro targets with whey, lard & haribos & expect to stay healthy'
> 
> Well of course not, and IIFYM never suggests this. The idea behind the protocol is that provided the majority of your intake is from wholefoods and that all your micronutrient bases are covered, then a bit of 'unclean' food isn't going to make your ar5e fall off.
> 
> ...


Great post!


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## TommyBananas (Nov 23, 2014)

banzi said:


> YADDA, YADDA ,YADDA
> 
> "This person does this and this person does that"
> 
> All that garbage is irrelevant to you, you need to do it yourself to know if it works, FOR YOU.


As I said, go to my log - I got lean, if you say its not lean then you're just being awkward for no apparant reason.

It works for everyone, because thermodynamics - as I said, it's not up for debate, have fun arguing with yourself and throwing personal insults around :thumb:


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## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

TommyBananas said:


> As I said, go to my log - I got lean, if you say its not lean then you're just being awkward for no apparant reason.
> 
> It works for everyone, because thermodynamics - as I said, it's not up for debate, have fun arguing with yourself and throwing personal insults around :thumb:


Did you get to 5% eating junk?

Never mind answering, we know you didnt.


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## TommyBananas (Nov 23, 2014)

banzi said:


> Did you get to 5% eating junk?
> 
> Never mind answering, we know you didnt.


Read Major Eyewaters post; your strawman arguement sucks, peace.


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## Major Eyeswater (Nov 2, 2013)

banzi said:


> The evidence is you cant hit 5% on IIFMM.


Could you provide links to that evidence


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## TommyBananas (Nov 23, 2014)

Major Eyeswater said:


> Could you provide links to that evidence


He doesn't believe in science and/or studies he said in a previous post, so even if he could...


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## Boshlop (Apr 1, 2012)

TommyBananas said:


> As I said, go to my log - I got lean, if you say its not lean then you're just being awkward for no apparant reason.
> 
> It works for everyone, because thermodynamics - as I said, it's not up for debate, have fun arguing with yourself and throwing personal insults around :thumb:


you two will never get along... but your both on the same side... yes thermodynamics is the entire point behind weight loss, but some time a slightly more advance diet is needed to get the desired speed of loss depending on the person, personally 9-10% is easy to get to, going below that at any pace needs adjustment beyond kcals or i just lose energy and become a mess. some one might get to 5% using the simple drop and if so, good for them.

banzi is right about not knowing until your their whats most effective, and your right about the general rule of fat loss. just seem a tad too stubborn to put two points together


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## Frandeman (Mar 24, 2014)

I eat then I clean

Is that ok??


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## SkinnyJ (Apr 21, 2012)

brb bleaching all my food so its clean


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## Frandeman (Mar 24, 2014)

Frandeman said:


> I eat then I clean
> 
> Is that ok??


L


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## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

Boshlop said:


> you two will never get along... but your both on the same side... yes thermodynamics is the entire point behind weight loss, but some time a slightly more advance diet is needed to get the desired speed of loss depending on the person, personally 9-10% is easy to get to, going below that at any pace needs adjustment beyond kcals or i just lose energy and become a mess. some one might get to 5% using the simple drop and if so, good for them.
> 
> banzi is right about not knowing until your their whats most effective, and your right about the general rule of fat loss. just seem a tad too stubborn to put two points together


They both know their stuff but they're both blinkered,stubborn and argumentative.


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## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

TommyBananas said:


> Read Major Eyewaters post; your strawman arguement sucks, peace.


I not only read it, I "liked" it.

Hes not talking about getting to ultra low bodyfat he's just talking about staying in shape and eating dirty, I agree with him on that.


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## TommyBananas (Nov 23, 2014)

Boshlop said:


> you two will never get along... but your both on the same side... yes thermodynamics is the entire point behind weight loss, but some time a slightly more advance diet is needed to get the desired speed of loss depending on the person, personally 9-10% is easy to get to, going below that at any pace needs adjustment beyond kcals or i just lose energy and become a mess. some one might get to 5% using the simple drop and if so, good for them.
> 
> banzi is right about not knowing until your their whats most effective, and your right about the general rule of fat loss. just seem a tad too stubborn to put two points together


Dieting does not need to be 'advanced' - a simple changing of macros/calories is the only thing that ever needs to be done. Clearly for you, you lose energy so a macronutrient shift toward some macro more than another, and or calorie/macro cycling somehow could benefit you.

But this isn't about that, he is saying flexible dieting does not work because I've not done it - it is *not* up for debate, unless he is a special snowflake or someone else is (they're not) we're all the same medical conditions aside.


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## TommyBananas (Nov 23, 2014)

banzi said:


> I not only read it, I "liked" it.
> 
> Hes not talking about getting to ultra low bodyfat he's just talking about staying in shape and eating dirty, I agree with him on that.


He clearly agrees with me that 5% is achievable with IIFYM - check his latest post.


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## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

Major Eyeswater said:


> Could you provide links to that evidence


I can post pics of me and what it took to get there.

He cant provide anything.

The "you" in the post was aimed at Tommy.

Until Tommy posts pics at 5% and is honest about how he did it, the point stands.


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## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

TommyBananas said:


> He clearly agrees with me that 5% is achievable with IIFYM - check his latest post.


I take it hes done it himself then.

Great.


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## TommyBananas (Nov 23, 2014)

banzi said:


> I can post pics of me and what it took to get there.
> 
> He cant provide anything.
> 
> ...


The point doesn't stand at all - because IIFYM works for every human on earth, medical conditions and personal preferences aside.

Over and out.


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## Boshlop (Apr 1, 2012)

FelonE said:


> They both know their stuff but they're both blinkered,stubborn and argumentative.


yep, ideas dont seem to be able to be on the same level, there must be a 1st and 2nd. personally i just find it fun to watch now


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## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

TommyBananas said:


> The point doesn't stand at all - because IIFYM works for every human on earth, medical conditions and personal preferences aside.
> 
> Over and out.


Says the man who cant hit 8%

Wheres this log you keep mentioning, I would like to read it?


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## TommyBananas (Nov 23, 2014)

banzi said:


> Says the man who cant hit 8%
> 
> Wheres this log you keep mentioning, I would like to read it?


In the log area, I'll tag you if you care that much, lol. Can't wait for more awkward, arrogant, ego driven responses.


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## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

Boshlop said:


> yep, ideas dont seem to be able to be on the same level, there must be a 1st and 2nd. personally i just find it fun to watch now


It got boring very quickly. They're never gonna agree so what's the point?


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## Boshlop (Apr 1, 2012)

FelonE said:


> It got boring very quickly. They're never gonna agree so what's the point?


this sort of sums up politics and religion in on sentence :lol:


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## TommyBananas (Nov 23, 2014)

FelonE said:


> It got boring very quickly. They're never gonna agree so what's the point?


Shut up you! :laugh:


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## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

Boshlop said:


> this sort of sums up politics and religion in on sentence :lol:


Sums up most of the threads on here too.


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## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

TommyBananas said:


> Shut up you!


Lol


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## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

TommyBananas said:


> In the log area, I'll tag you if you care that much, lol. Can't wait for more awkward, arrogant, ego driven responses.


please, I have no idea where the log area is.

Im just about to eat a pizza and need something to remind myself I shouldn't.


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## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

FelonE said:


> It got boring very quickly. They're never gonna agree so what's the point?


I bet you hit on every post update. :thumb:


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## TommyBananas (Nov 23, 2014)

FelonE said:


> Sums up most of the threads on here too.


Better than Facebook though, right? :tongue:


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## NovemberDelta (Apr 17, 2011)

The idea that you need to have attained something yourself to be aware of research and science supporting a point is bizarre.

If flexible diet research and science shows that it works, if I want to say "studies show it works" I don't have to have even tried it.

Research shows certain drugs work certain ways, I don't have to try them to have confidence in the science that proves this. Especially if I don't have a disease, ergo, if I want to put on strength I don't need to try to get to 5 pc to be allowed to say IIFYM works.


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## saxondale (Nov 11, 2012)

TommyBananas said:


> The point doesn't stand at all - because IIFYM works for every human on earth, medical conditions and personal preferences aside.
> 
> Over and out.


see, it`s these contradictory posts that make a mockery of what your saying - does it work for every human, or not?


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## nWo (Mar 25, 2014)

> Use my dinner tonight as an example of "dirty eating" :lol:
> 
> View attachment 164562


...aaaaand it's all gone


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## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

banzi said:


> I bet you hit on every post update. :thumb:


I bet I do. Sorry just been scoffing Bourbons lol.


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## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

TommyBananas said:


> Better than Facebook though, right? :tongue:


Yeah.


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## Major Eyeswater (Nov 2, 2013)

banzi said:


> I can post pics of me and what it took to get there.
> 
> He cant provide anything.
> 
> ...


The thing is Mate - you stated that 'the evidence is you cant hit 5% on IIFYM.' Providing evidence that you have done it a certain way is not evidence that you can't do it via IIFYM, and this is what I'm asking for.

I remember a seminar by Tom Platz where he talked about pop tarts being a regular part of his precontest diet


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## zyphy (Jun 23, 2014)

You're 'dirty bulking' if you're gaining far too much fat vs muscle over a defined period of time (e.g. a month). The whole 'eating clean' thing is a myth if you ask me.


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## zyphy (Jun 23, 2014)

Btw the concept of IIFYM isn't to base your whole diet around junk food lmao. It was primarily built as a means of providing sanity to most people who can't stick to 'clean' foods.


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## zyphy (Jun 23, 2014)

SkinnyJ said:


> brb bleaching all my food so its clean


Haha.


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## Joooshh29 (Apr 8, 2015)

BUMP , Just read all this , Tommy banana , so if everyone hits they macrons for the day they can eat junk food and lose weight , surely if it was this easy half the population wouldn't be over weight ??? I'm not expert , but to get down to 5% BF takes dedication , them contest guys have 2,3,4 ,5 times as much muscle mass as us, so they can consume what they like... To preserve there muscle


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## Joooshh29 (Apr 8, 2015)

Yes but if all it took was hitting macros and eating what you like , it would be easy , that's all I'm saying is if this point was to reach 10-15% then yeah ok , but not to get to 5% , its dedication and preparation


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## saxondale (Nov 11, 2012)

TommyBananas said:


> All food has certain macros, if they can fit in, bodyfat is irrelevant.


Are you seriously claiming you can arrive at stage ready eating ssh1t?


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## saxondale (Nov 11, 2012)

TommyBananas said:


> Several forum members here have done it, they posted in the last thread about it.
> 
> PHMG, was one of them. Lotus who is absolutely shredded, follows IIFYM, also. While you were banned we went through this entirely
> 
> No-one is saying eat 100% sh1t.


Ban? Moi? Working away mate

Lol, so its IIFYM as long as its clean Not shh1t


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## saxondale (Nov 11, 2012)

TommyBananas said:


> You don't even know what IIFYM means anyway, while you were gone - quite a few people saw the light


genuinly asking mate then what food meets my macros that isnt actually just clean food?

Double whopper with cheese?


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## Joooshh29 (Apr 8, 2015)

How can I see the light ? I'm willing to read


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## saxondale (Nov 11, 2012)

I dont get it, sorry mate

IIFYM is just eating a varied clean diet?


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## TELBOR (Feb 20, 2012)

I think people forget it's IF and not MAKE.

IF it fits then yes allow a "treat".

But don't "MAKE" it fit because you have to have junk daily.

I think a lot of people believe IIFYM is a diet that is McDonald's, crisps and pop all day.

It isn't.

@PHMG had a solid diet with treats thrown in, but he also smashed the cardio and high intensity weight sessions - then placed in his first comp


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## saxondale (Nov 11, 2012)

TommyBananas said:


> If you don't get it, thats your fault, plenty of info above.


I

I was hoping you could just explain it but roblet beatbyou too it, no worries.


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## TELBOR (Feb 20, 2012)

TommyBananas said:


> @PHMG has a nice bum.


I like his eyebrows


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## JuggernautJake (Nov 6, 2013)

banzi said:


> Really?
> 
> Doesnt having a lot of muscle give you a higher BMR?


that's exactly how I thought...but I can say that when I'm smaller its much easier to stay lean ... I have no idea why

I think it might be something to do with the fact while I have more muscle I get hungrier? and thus become more prone to overeating...

not sure but definitely the lighter I am the easier it is to stay lean for me, I could be the minority


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## TELBOR (Feb 20, 2012)

TommyBananas said:


> Jesus fvck. You've changed your name, I only realised now, like I was like who the fvck is TELBOR.


You clown


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## Joooshh29 (Apr 8, 2015)

IIFYM is just eating a varied clean diet?


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## Jalex (Nov 16, 2014)

saxondale said:


> genuinly asking mate then what food meets my macros that isnt actually just clean food?
> 
> Double whopper with cheese?


Double whopper with cheese probably has a decent macro breakdown I imagine (perhaps too much fat). It's the micros it lacks and so you would need to make sure to get them from the remainder of your diet


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## Info Junkie (Nov 22, 2013)

TommyBananas said:


> If you don't get it, thats your fault, plenty of info above.


Tommy although I find it strange how you have so many posts on the forum already (jealous) I have watched the videos and read links above and I can agree it all does make sense been honest ,

Going start first cycle in 10weeks just going to do a cut first and I will gve this flexible dieting a go to do so ,

Las year I had a good cut vascular veins out etc with the normal low carb diet so I will see how this compare for myself but I do expect the same result for listening to videos anyway.

One thing that I fully agree with is what layne said about clean eating all week and having a Sunday to cheat a little does turn into a full out binge day as have Been to clean all week per say


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## Info Junkie (Nov 22, 2013)

Vascular and veins out is the same thing hahaha I meant abs


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## BennyC (Mar 18, 2010)

If you are following a varied and well balanced diet, eating to established macros with a degree of accuracy & consistency and not binging - then you are following IIFYM/Flexible dieting.


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## aofelix (Sep 12, 2010)

From my research, IIFYM is the truth. Hit carbs, protein, fats and micros required from sources and it won't affect body composition.

However, from a health/doctors perspective, there still are foods which are inherently bad for you and can affect your heart, raise your cholesterol etc. Then again, to counter that point.. if you're lifting weights and doing some type of cardiovascular activity, its all kind of irrelevant as most people affected by diseases such as diabetes really take the **** when it comes to consumption of sugars and lack of inactivity. I'd like to stress not ALL people as some have a genetic predisposition and some are just unlucky (type 1).

I remember reading a study [don't quote me on this, memory is ****ty] where the actual ammount of sugar required to induce type 2 diabetes is something like 50g fructose. Thats a huge amount and would require my diet to be revolved around huge sugary snacks completely. Then we have unsaturated vs saturated fats and the deposition of cholesterol in the arteries etc etc. Anyway, hopefully you guys get my point. For body composition IIFYM is cool but standard bro-bodybuilding diets really taught people to at least try and understand whats good for them. Sadly that understanding sometimes causes people to overthink and misunderstand concepts and then spread misinformation.

People are just very set in their ways as their understanding is "if somethings worked for me, it must be right" so eating broccoli and chicken breast and brown rice and oats and dextrose must be right but there are more enjoyable ways to go about bodybuilding unless you find those foods enjoyable.


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## Rick89 (Feb 27, 2009)

TommyBananas said:


> Several forum members here have done it, they posted in the last thread about it.
> 
> PHMG, was one of them. Lotus who is absolutely shredded, follows IIFYM, also. While you were banned we went through this entirely
> 
> No-one is saying eat 100% sh1t.


as ive mentioned on here many times my good friend and occasional training partner won the world junior bodybuidling natural title using IIFYM, ive seen him eat bacon, sausage, haribos, loads of nice foods on top of his good macros and youve never seen anybody so lean

also holds british records in powerlifting,

http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/member-journals-and-pictures/267317-pics-training-buddy-yesterday-npa.html?highlight=

i love your knowledge and advice tommy, even if you do love to fckin wind people up in the process :thumb:


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## TommyBananas (Nov 23, 2014)

Rick89 said:


> as ive mentioned on here many times my good friend and occasional training partner won the world junior bodybuidling natural title using IIFYM, ive seen him eat bacon, sausage, haribos, loads of nice foods on top of his good macros and youve never seen anybody so lean
> 
> also holds british records in powerlifting,
> 
> ...


Awesome!  He looks amazing! nohomo!


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## Rick89 (Feb 27, 2009)

TommyBananas said:


> Awesome!  He looks amazing! nohomo!


yes the guy is a crazy hard worker, awesome genetics but his mentality is so driven its unreal


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## saxondale (Nov 11, 2012)

Rick89 said:


> as ive mentioned on here many times my good friend and occasional training partner won the world junior bodybuidling natural title using IIFYM, ive seen him eat bacon, sausage, haribos, loads of nice foods on top of his good macros and youve never seen anybody so lean
> 
> also holds british records in powerlifting,
> 
> ...


not burger king then?

it does seem the pro iffy guys try nd play the eat what you want card but when pushed always admit its still all health food


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## Wheyman (Sep 6, 2011)

I eat clean, for example when I have a burger I match it with eating an equal amount of fairy liquid, that way it balances out


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## Rick89 (Feb 27, 2009)

saxondale said:


> not burger king then?
> 
> it does seem the pro iffy guys try nd play the eat what you want card but when pushed always admit its still all health food


mate im not talking about some guy on the internet, i know him personally and know the kind of stuff he eats


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## saxondale (Nov 11, 2012)

Rick89 said:


> mate im not talking about some guy on the internet, i know him personally and know the kind of stuff he eats


I know mate, thats what I`m saying, agreeing with you.


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

I've gotta confess to skipping all but the first page of this thread as these discussions often drive me nuts.

Clean eating is just a phrase that has no inherent meaning, but generally the common agreed definition is to avoiding foods that are excessively processed and contain chemical additives and mostly consuming unaltered foods - fresh nuts, fruit, veg, unprocessed meat, dairy etc.

The age old argument though is how much difference does it make compared to eating the same amount of each macro from clean vs non-clean foods? The answer to that is to a degree un-givable because it's something impossible to tightly study given how varied people eat and how different people are.

Generally though I think the following are the most important things to remember:

- fat gain and fat loss is dependent upon energy balance and not food quality.

- health markers and disease risk factors always improve when moving from being over-fat to a healthy body fat level, independent of food quality

However:

- improvement in health markers that come with optimizing body composition can vary in how well they improve between foods of different qualities and macros

- the above variations have a genetic-food-activity-health type interaction, meaning that different people will improve slightly better than others on the same types of food and different individuals will likely benefit best with food selections slightly different to one another

- although fat and weight loss or gain may be similar between diets of different qualities of foods, perceived energy levels, mood, exercise performance, immune response, appropriateness of appetite and emotional satisfaction with diet etc can all differ between diets composed of different food selections

So, in general I like to look at it this way - get your basic energy, protein, efa, fiber and micronutrient requirements right first, then construct the rest of the diet around your own individual responses to food in all the ways that affect your life and health quality. Ideally to do the health quality side of it you'd get bloods done semi-regularly and have an idea of your health responses and even get some gene testing done, but that of course isn't practical for most of us. In the absence of that though following the best 'safe bet' statistically for keeping risk factors as minimal as possible involves a diet that mostly fits the 'clean' diet description, where approximately 70-80% of what you eat would be fresh veg, fruit, meat, dairy etc. The remaining bit can be whatever makes you happy - more of the same if you are a clean eating enthusiast, junky stuff if you are like most people.


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