# Grapefruit Juice Makes Dbol, Tbol and Halotestin More effective



## Zorrin (Sep 24, 2010)

This is an interesting article I found when I was looking for something else:-

http://www.ergo-log.com/grapefruit.html

Between 17% and 47% of things like dbol are removed from the body by conversion by an enzyme which is reduced by drinking grapefruit juice. They're not quite sure which of the chemicals in grapefruit juice is responsible - it may be the one which is also resonsible for the flavour of earl gray tea.

If you can reduce the amount of a methylated steroid you have to take for the same effect, then it saves you some liver stress, and some cash. Or think of it as more anabolic effect without increasing your dose.

Intriguing. I'm very interested in enzymes at the moment. That ergo-log is quite a good read, and I like that half the articles say "such and such DOESN'T work".


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## DiggyV (May 6, 2011)

Zorrin said:


> This is an interesting article I found when I was looking for something else:-
> 
> http://www.ergo-log.com/grapefruit.html
> 
> ...


Interesting read buddy.

Grapefruit juice also makes the fat burner synephrine more effective as well, possibly as much as 300% more effective!

Am on TBol at the moment - so off to get some grapefruit juice right now!


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## biglbs (Jan 26, 2012)

It is also proven in a study(50% success) to lower Rbc when on aas!

Sales are gonna go up!


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## Jay Walker (Jun 24, 2003)

I've read this a few times, I love grapefruit juice and dbol/tbol, so win win.


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## shaunmac (Aug 13, 2010)

So basically, a 250ml glass at breakfast will help keep dbol more effective?


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## MXD (Jan 23, 2008)

I eat a whole one every morning. Pink is best.


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## Mighty Sparrow (Apr 10, 2011)

Dont quote me on this but I believe the magic ingredient in grapefruit is Naringin. Naringin has been studied in its effect on caffeine, basically it increases its half life and so gives a longer effect for the same amount.

Naringin can be purchased as a capp/tablet with all the active ingredient and no need to eat/drink any grapefruit, ideal if you are on a diet.


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## DiggyV (May 6, 2011)

Mighty Sparrow said:


> Dont quote me on this but I believe the magic ingredient in grapefruit is Naringin. Naringin has been studied in its effect on caffeine, basically it increases its half life and so gives a longer effect for the same amount.
> 
> Naringin can be purchased as a capp/tablet with all the active ingredient and no need to eat/drink any grapefruit, ideal if you are on a diet.


Spot on mate - Naringin and Hygamine - both in grapefruit juice, and also available as capsules.

You put me on to this IIRC. :thumb:


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## Irish Beast (Jun 16, 2009)

Finally an explaination for the Kai Greene video!


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## Wheyman (Sep 6, 2011)

Yes this is why a grapefuit extract is added to many supplements, we use itin our fat burner, you can read more here http://www.nutros.net/nsr-0204v.html


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## Mighty Sparrow (Apr 10, 2011)

DiggyV said:


> Spot on mate - Naringin and Hygamine - both in grapefruit juice, and also available as capsules.
> 
> You put me on to this IIRC. :thumb:


Ha ha, thats right. It works too, caffeine keeps me buzzing for ages now!!


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## rectus (Jan 18, 2012)

DiggyV said:


> Spot on mate - Naringin and Hygamine - both in grapefruit juice, and also available as capsules.
> 
> You put me on to this IIRC. :thumb:





> It is not know which substances cause the effect. The old theory was that it was the work of naringin and its metabolite naringenin. Laboratory tests do not confirm this though.


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## Barman (Feb 29, 2012)

Oh dam it i cant drink that stuff it tends to make me gag once or twice ive goten sick ha


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## rectus (Jan 18, 2012)

Barman said:


> Oh dam it i cant drink that stuff it tends to make me gag once or twice ive goten sick ha


It is revolting stuff. Good job i'm not on DBOL/TBOL. Though if I do another TBOL cycle I will add in the juice *vom*


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## Chelsea (Sep 19, 2009)

Repped Zorrin, nice info mate.


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## Vibora (Sep 30, 2007)

This is due to the isoform of cytochrome P450 - CYP3A4.

The substrate in the grapefruit binds to the intestinal isoenzyme, impairing first-pass metabolism and causing a sustained decrease in CYP3A4 protein expression.

This results in inhibition of drug metabolism in the intestine and increased oral bioavailability.

However 17aa steroids already have a very high bioavailabilty.

Also when doing the maths, in more cases than not, its way cheaper to take an extra 10mg tab of whatever steroid than to take the grapefruit juice.

However there is also the potential for increasing toxicity, side effects, and unforeseen interactions.

It is *highly advised *to not take grapefruit juice with your SERMs such as Nolva (or anything else that has a long half life).


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## Barman (Feb 29, 2012)

rectus said:


> It is revolting stuff. Good job i'm not on DBOL/TBOL. Though if I do another TBOL cycle I will add in the juice *vom*


Haha good luck man if i did it my tongue blow up the taste of S**T!! might wash it down haha


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## m118 (Feb 4, 2011)

Vibora said:


> This is due to the isoform of cytochrome P450 - CYP3A4.
> 
> The substrate in the grapefruit binds to the intestinal isoenzyme, impairing first-pass metabolism and causing a sustained decrease in CYP3A4 protein expression.
> 
> ...


this is the same reason why old people are told not to take their statins with grapefruit juice in the evening.


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## stone14 (Mar 24, 2005)

so is it best to take orals with the juice or? also is there a difrence in white and pink grapefruit extract amounts or?


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## stone14 (Mar 24, 2005)

biglbs said:


> It is also proven in a study(50% success) to lower Rbc when on aas!
> 
> Sales are gonna go up!


wouldnt this count as a negative effect?


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## stone14 (Mar 24, 2005)

Zorrin said:


> This is an interesting article I found when I was looking for something else:-
> 
> http://www.ergo-log.com/grapefruit.html
> 
> ...


this has my vote for best thread of the day, i like it.


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## stone14 (Mar 24, 2005)

Sy. said:


> What?!
> 
> Of course not


a higher rbc means better cardio through better oxygen delivery to the body (and better nutes delivery i think), plus making you vascular, eq's main action is increasing rbc, so why would you want to reduce it?


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## cas (Jan 9, 2011)

cant stand the stuff....what about cranberry juice?


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## stone14 (Mar 24, 2005)

Sy. said:


> Oh I don't know.. to reduce the chance of stroke and heart attack.
> 
> No im being silly I want my blood to be thicker. Aslong as im vascular..cause if theres one thing women love its a vascular man


haha true but...

im sure its fine if rbc is a problem you will want to reduce it, but when guys run high doses test with 1g eq and other etc and are fine im sure for the normal aas user its fine, also improved cardio even without aas is down to increased rbc, this is why there is a world olympics gym at 30,000 feet to purposly reduce there oxygen intake to increase there rbc to make them fitter once they return to a normal hight above seea level... and why people use blood dopping techniques to increase rbc also. aas increasing rbc is a positive effect imo but there will oviously be a healthy range, if you want to reduce rbc then ruduce aas.

for the average guy yes lower rbc at an older age is great to reduce the chances of blood clots etc as you say, higher rbc to a point is good for active people


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## biglbs (Jan 26, 2012)

stone14 said:


> wouldnt this count as a negative effect?


Not when you want protein synthesis benefits etc without loading your heart up mate,as us poor weak old gits need all the help we can get!Pass me zimmer whilst your up please?


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## biglbs (Jan 26, 2012)

stone14 said:


> haha true but...
> 
> im sure its fine if rbc is a problem you will want to reduce it, but when guys run high doses test with 1g eq and other etc and are fine im sure for the normal aas user its fine, also improved cardio even without aas is down to increased rbc, this is why there is a world olympics gym at 30,000 feet to purposly reduce there oxygen intake to increase there rbc to make them fitter once they return to a normal hight above seea level... and why people use blood dopping techniques to increase rbc also. aas increasing rbc is a positive effect imo but there will oviously be a healthy range, if you want to reduce rbc then ruduce aas.
> 
> for the average guy yes lower rbc at an older age is great to reduce the chances of blood clots etc as you say, higher rbc to a point is good for active people


I did'nt think just reducing aas use unless in duration terms, made a jot of difference to rbc ultimatly,i thought it either caused the process or did not?Am i wrong on that bro?


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## Zorrin (Sep 24, 2010)

Isn't narangin also in orange juice?

It seems like a lot of us can't stand grapefruit juice. Its made me heave ever since I was given some grapefruit flavour penecillin as a kid. I think I saw narangin tablets in Holland and Barratt, I might give them a try.

Yes, methylated steroids like dbol are pretty much 100% absorbed already. Grapefruit juice seems to prevent its main pathway of elimination from the body, so it hangs around longer, doing its stuff.

Embarrasingly for me, I've just started my first dbol cycle. I feel such a fraud!

I decided years ago that I don't get on with it, its too estrogeny for me. Why use it when turinabol is quite cheap? But now I'm broke, so the remaining 210 blue hearts that have moved house with me twice are getting used, with test prop and aromasin.


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## biglbs (Jan 26, 2012)

Sy. said:


> What other guys run is of no concern. Some may 'get away' with it, most won't!
> 
> I'd be giving blood or letting my own blood every week tbh.
> 
> ...


It is worth a mention----You must not ever give blood on aas and the letting of blood only lowers volume not the viscosity. :smartass:


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## Zorrin (Sep 24, 2010)

gymfreak786 said:


> intresting website


Yeah, I found it by accident, but its full of good stuff.

I have a load of the "classic" prohormone 1-AD left, which I really rate. It lloks like, if you take it and HCG at the same time, you get three times as much of the enzyme which converts it to 1-test. I keep stumbling on interesting articles, and reassuringly, half of them tell you that "this and this have no effect"


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## Mike Arnold (Apr 12, 2012)

biglbs said:


> It is worth a mention----You must not ever give blood on aas and the letting of blood only lowers volume not the viscosity. :smartass:


I will reply to a few posts in this thread, so this is not directed solely at you. There is a lot of misinformation in this thread regarding RBC (hematocrit) and whether its elevation is a "good" or "bad' thing for AAS users.

The bottom line is that anytime hematocrit is elevated outside the normal range it is a negative...period. The normal range is quite limited and even a small elevation outside the normal range can significantly increase the possibility of stroke...and in case anyone thinks this is not something that steroid users really need to worry about because it "doesn't happen very often", think again. In fact, more than ever, elevated hematocrit is finally starting to be paid more attention to...now that enough steroid users have DIED from strokes, due to elevated hematocrit.

To the poster who basically inferred that some BB'rs use grams of EQ and are fine, so that means normal steroid users does not have to worry...that is 100% inaccurate. It is a scientific fact that even TRT doses of testosterone, at 200 mg per week, can potentially elevate hematocrit outside of the normal range. The normal range for hematocrit in adult males ranges between approximately 40-50. This means there is about a 10 point variance in which we are supposed to function...and using just a few hundred mg's of Test and Deca per week can easily elevate one's number into the mid-50's or even above. To put things in perspective, having a hematocrit level even in the mid-upper-50's, which happens all the time with low to moderate dose steroid use, greatly increases the possibility of a stroke due to bloodclots. I personally know 3 men just this last year...young men...amatuer BB'rs...who all died from this very cause. It is no ****in' joke and if anyone here thinks it is a benefit to elevate hematocrit outside the normal range or that "normal" amounts of AAS don't raise hematocrit high enough to cause these issues...you are 100% wrong.

Elevated hematocrit has been an ignored cardiovascular risk factor in AAS users for many years, but now we finally have multiple respected authorities and indisputable medical reserach showing that hematocrit should be monitored and maintained just as much as blood pressure and lipids. In fact, elevated Hematocrit poses a more acute risk than trashed lipids because altered lipids can take years before their damage manifests in the form of a heart attack. With elevated hematocrit, one could have an acute episode (bloodclot) within just a short time after experiencing elevated levels.

Those who actually TRY to elevate hematocrit, thinking it will make them more vascular and improve their endurance, are making a foolish choice. The increase in vascularity we see when using AAS is only partially caused by elevated hematocrit...and is mostly attributable to other causes. Intentionally elevating Hematocrit for the sole purpose of becoming more vascular is assinine...plain and simple. Likewise, intentionally elevating hematocrit through steroid use for the sake of improved muscular endurance is just as foolish. As BB'rs, we can train plenty hard enough without raising our hematocrit levels outside the normal range. Besides, just like with vascularity increases, the increase in mucular endurance we experience with certain steroids is most often due to causes which have nothing to do with hematocrit.

The statement which claims that giving blood should not be done when a BB'r has elevated hematocrit because it only lowers blood volume, not viscosity...is false. It is true that giving blood does not "diectly" reduce viscosity but it certainly does indirectly reduce viscosity within a few hours...and it will continue to reduce it over a couple days. Why? Because RBC's take weeks to build up, while plasma is replaced very rapidly...within hours to days. When we give blood, we lose a certain amount of RBC & plasma...whatever was naturally contained in the amount of blood given. However, after the blood has been given, the body will immediately start replacing plasma at a rate much faster than it does RBC's, as plasma is made mostly from the water we drink, but RBC's need to be produced by bone marrow. Therefore, as plasma increases dissproportionately to RBC's, hemeatocrit goes down. So, telling someone with elevated hematocrit not to give blood is not only potentially injurious to their health, but may cause them to spread this same mis-information to others.

The quickest way to reduce hematocrit is to hydrate oneself. Being dehydrated increases hematocrit, while being extra hydrated reduces hematocrit...as hematocrit is simply the percentage of RBC's per volume of blood. By drinking more water, plasma rises and therefore, RBC percentage goes down per total volume of blood. However, this is a short term fix and not sufficient for those with signifiant elevation. As has been mentioned multiple times in this thread, Naringin is an effective manager of hemetaocrit and should be consumed every day in steroid using BB'rs.


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## Mars (Aug 25, 2007)

Mike Arnold said:


> I will reply to a few posts in this thread, so this is not directed solely at you. There is a lot of misinformation in this thread regarding RBC (hematocrit) and whether its elevation is a "good" or "bad' thing for AAS users.
> 
> The bottom line is that anytime hematocrit is elevated outside the normal range it is a negative...period. The normal range is quite limited and even a small elevation outside the normal range can significantly increase the possibility of stroke...and in case anyone thinks this is not something that steroid users really need to worry about because it "doesn't happen very often", think again. In fact, more than ever, elevated hematocrit is finally starting to be paid more attention to...now that enough *steroid users have DIED from strokes, due to elevated hematocrit.*
> 
> ...


Prove it.

They have never raised mine, though i have plenty else wrong.

Chronic smokers have a higher hematocrit than most steroid users.

People who live at high altitudes have higher hematocrits than people on TRT.


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## biglbs (Jan 26, 2012)

Mike Arnold said:


> I will reply to a few posts in this thread, so this is not directed solely at you. There is a lot of misinformation in this thread regarding RBC (hematocrit) and whether its elevation is a "good" or "bad' thing for AAS users.
> 
> The bottom line is that anytime hematocrit is elevated outside the normal range it is a negative...period. The normal range is quite limited and even a small elevation outside the normal range can significantly increase the possibility of stroke...and in case anyone thinks this is not something that steroid users really need to worry about because it "doesn't happen very often", think again. In fact, more than ever, elevated hematocrit is finally starting to be paid more attention to...now that enough steroid users have DIED from strokes, due to elevated hematocrit.
> 
> ...


The reason i said you'must not give blood on ass',had nothing to do with the viscosity,it simply is a factual statement as NHS do not allow,needle/aas/users to give blood due to health restrictions,after all Granny may not want Test in her blood!!! :lol:


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## mark67 (Apr 14, 2010)

Gonna buy me gallons of grapefruit juice


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## monkfish (Mar 14, 2012)

DON'T take grapefruit juice if on blood pressure tablets, it stop them working. I love grapefruit juice but haven't had it for 10 years now - gutted.


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## 12sec1/4 (May 25, 2009)

Zorrin said:


> This is an interesting article I found when I was looking for something else:-
> 
> http://www.ergo-log.com/grapefruit.html
> 
> ...


Hello Zorrin,

I know your pretty clued up with this sort of thing so thought I'd ask......

Is Bromelain any good? As in is it the same stuff? I got two bottles from your fav store (H& B) and am yet to use them... I was told by a herbalist to get them as they help digest Protein....

Thanks.


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## DutchTony (Sep 25, 2011)

Would pineapple juice work as i love that?

Can't stand grapefruit juice.


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## biglbs (Jan 26, 2012)

monkfish said:


> DON'T take grapefruit juice if on blood pressure tablets, it stop them working. I love grapefruit juice but haven't had it for 10 years now - gutted.


Not all are the same,only some,check with doc and on label,to be certain IMO


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## monkfish (Mar 14, 2012)

biglbs said:


> Not all are the same,only some,check with doc and on label,to be certain IMO


I'll check but i'm on 3 different tablets so I'd imagine one will be affected by grapefruit.


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## corporates (Nov 12, 2006)

There is some truth in this. If you have ever taken anti-histamines, triludan forte was one that was banned for this very reason, it is known that grapefruit has an effect on many drugs. just ask your gp or google grapefruit ban triludan.


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## Davidmc1961 (Nov 1, 2008)

Zorrin said:


> This is an interesting article I found when I was looking for something else:-
> 
> http://www.ergo-log.com/grapefruit.html
> 
> ...


Yep, always down my dbol with grapefruit juice, yummy.


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## hometrainer (Apr 9, 2003)

i cant drink it at the mo as i'm on simvastatin for high cholseterol .some times getting old isnt that much fun


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## biglbs (Jan 26, 2012)

monkfish said:


> I'll check but i'm on 3 different tablets so I'd imagine one will be affected by grapefruit.


Hope you can have it!


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## flecks (Dec 1, 2011)

Mike Arnold said:


> I will reply to a few posts in this thread, so this is not directed solely at you. There is a lot of misinformation in this thread regarding RBC (hematocrit) and whether its elevation is a "good" or "bad' thing for AAS users.
> 
> The bottom line is that anytime hematocrit is elevated outside the normal range it is a negative...period. The normal range is quite limited and even a small elevation outside the normal range can significantly increase the possibility of stroke...and in case anyone thinks this is not something that steroid users really need to worry about because it "doesn't happen very often", think again. In fact, more than ever, elevated hematocrit is finally starting to be paid more attention to...now that enough steroid users have DIED from strokes, due to elevated hematocrit.
> 
> ...


took me a while to read that but i think this is great info, have already found a source of Naringin, and Great post by the doctor sounding bber...  )


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## Shaftie (Apr 5, 2014)

Zorrin said:


> If you can reduce the amount of a methylated steroid you have to take for the same effect, then it saves you some liver stress,


I don't think it would reduce liver stress. The inhibitors in grapefruit only act on intestinal CYP3A4, not the liver enzyme. So in effect you increase intestinal absorption of the drug, and thus the amount of drug reaching the liver. Since the liver enzymes are unaffected, you still get the same rate of buildup of toxic breakdown products that you would get taking a higher dose of the drug.

So it's the exact equivalent of upping the dose, with the same increased risk of side effects.


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## stone14 (Mar 24, 2005)

As above GF juice is only effective in the gut, it has no effect on the liver other then to increase the amound of drug going to it from reducing its distruction in the gut. And it has to be pink GF.


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## Prince Adam (Mar 17, 2012)

I do miss Zorrin's random anecdotes, sigh


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## Shaftie (Apr 5, 2014)

stone14 said:


> As above GF juice is only effective in the gut, it has no effect on the liver other then to increase the amound of drug going to it from reducing its distruction in the gut. And it has to be pink GF.


Can you remember where you read that it has to be pink grapefruit? What I've been reading suggests white is the most potent.

http://www.bluelight.org/vb/threads/626567-White-grapefruit-vs-red-or-pink-for-CYP-3A4-inhibition


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## NFS (Jan 9, 2014)

I read this thread today and the article, i just went and bought pink GF and wow its discusting!! lol


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## dbaird (Sep 2, 2012)

be careful, grapefruit juice inhibits the breakdown of many drugs making them stay in your system for much longer.

There was a man in florida who ate grapefruit every day... it made his statins build up in his body and killed him in the end.

You could potentially be doing more damage than good here.


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## NFS (Jan 9, 2014)

dbaird said:


> be careful, grapefruit juice inhibits the breakdown of many drugs making them stay in your system for much longer.
> 
> There was a man in florida who ate grapefruit every day... it made his statins build up in his body and killed him in the end.
> 
> You could potentially be doing more damage than good here.


Surely a small glass a day while im on my dbol only cycle will be okay? and up the effectiveness of the dose?


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## dbaird (Sep 2, 2012)

NFS said:


> Surely a small glass a day while im on my dbol only cycle will be okay? and up the effectiveness of the dose?


Yeh you will *probably*be ok.. it does the same of codeine also..

But what you currently know about how to use dbol safely, and its half life goes out the window. All its going to do is stop your liver from being able to break it down as effectively.. so there will be more in your body. Your guess is as good as mine as to how much will be floating round with your liver enzymes impaired.


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## kreig (May 12, 2008)

NFS said:


> Surely a small glass a day while im on my dbol only cycle will be okay? and up the effectiveness of the dose?


It's fine as long as you don't happen to be taking any other drugs it can effect which could build up in your system


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## NFS (Jan 9, 2014)

dbaird said:


> Yeh you will *probably*be ok.. it does the same of codeine also..
> 
> But what you currently know about how to use dbol safely, and its half life goes out the window. All its going to do is stop your liver from being able to break it down as effectively.. so there will be more in your body. Your guess is as good as mine as to how much will be floating round with your liver enzymes impaired.


humm interesting. i have 3 weeks left of my cycle i will give it a try for atleast a few days drinking 200ml a day and see how i go. cheers



blitz2163 said:


> It's fine as long as you don't happen to be taking any other drugs it can effect which could build up in your system


well im taking Nolva and some ibuprofen, i wonder if its bad that im taking nolva as the half life of nolva is massive!?


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## stuey99 (Nov 30, 2012)

FFS...if people want more dbol in their system...JUST TAKE MORE FVCKIN DBOL!!

Lol...it's probably cheaper and better tasting than poncy fvckin pink grapefruit juice anyway haha!!


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## dbaird (Sep 2, 2012)

NFS said:


> humm interesting. i have 3 weeks left of my cycle i will give it a try for atleast a few days drinking 200ml a day and see how i go. cheers
> 
> well im taking Nolva and some ibuprofen, i wonder if its bad that im taking nolva as the half life of nolva is massive!?


In the name of bro-science go for it :thumb: I would probably do it.. but I am reckless and slightly demented


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## NFS (Jan 9, 2014)

stuey99 said:


> FFS...if people want more dbol in their system...JUST TAKE MORE FVCKIN DBOL!!
> 
> Lol...it's probably cheaper and better tasting than poncy fvckin pink grapefruit juice anyway haha!!


lol some people love to experiment haha, surely adding more dbol will have a more increased effect on the liver!? yeah i agree with you, it is proper manky sh1te



dbaird said:


> In the name of bro-science go for it :thumb: I would probably do it.. but I am reckless and slightly demented


cheers i will see if i can be ****d to drink some tomorrow, it truly is wrong!


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## kreig (May 12, 2008)

I quite like the taste so I'm washing my dbol kick start down with 150ml


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## mal (Dec 31, 2009)

Theres a study that caffiene taken with anavar boosts its effectiveness massively...

Bet you didnt know that!


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## kreig (May 12, 2008)

mal said:


> Theres a study that caffiene taken with anavar boosts its effectiveness massively...
> 
> Bet you didnt know that!


Works for painkillers too


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## dave-taff89 (Jul 14, 2013)

Interesting......... Hmmmmmm


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## SK50 (Apr 7, 2013)

So, who takes grapefruit to control hematocrit?

I am thinking of trying it based on that pubmed study : http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3243695

I have just found mine to be highly elevated still after a blast, and I'm 4 weeks off gear  Mine is definitely related to gear as mine has always been 46 or so but is now 54 ! ouch

I am on SSRIs - would taking grapefruit 12 hours apart from the SSRI be ok?

I'm trying to find a place where I can donate blood other than NHS but not having any luck.


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## Andy Dee (Jun 1, 2008)

SK50 said:


> So, who takes grapefruit to control hematocrit?
> 
> I am thinking of trying it based on that pubmed study : http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3243695
> 
> ...


Not me. But after reading this thread, i'll sure as sh1t be off to the shop tonight to buy it and stock it.


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## SK50 (Apr 7, 2013)

andysutils said:


> Not me. But after reading this thread, i'll sure as sh1t be off to the shop tonight to buy it and stock it.


I have read on many US boards that people use it based on this one study that keeps popping up.

But I have also read that grapefruit juices are contraindicated in TRT as it reduces the metabolism of estrogens....


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## mrblonde (Oct 27, 2010)

Grapefruit juice blended with a tin of drained tuna = win win (cant even taste the fishes)


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## SkinnyJ (Apr 21, 2012)

Can anyone summarise the thread to save reading 5 pages!? :lol:


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## Shaftie (Apr 5, 2014)

SK50 said:


> But I have also read that grapefruit juices are contraindicated in TRT as it reduces the metabolism of estrogens....


Do you have a source for this? It isn't what I would expect since grapefruit juice doesn't act on the liver.


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## SK50 (Apr 7, 2013)

LordShaftesbury said:


> Do you have a source for this? It isn't what I would expect since grapefruit juice doesn't act on the liver.


No firm or quality source. I heard it mentioned on a forum and googled 'grapefruit juice trt' and there are a few low quality mentions of it on not-very-scientific sites.

I have not looked into it in detail - my original post was because I have heard of it and hoped someone would chime in to validate/reject the concept.

Perhaps the info is sourced from http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7715468

Whether the test in ovariectomized women applies to males I can only speculate.

Also, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23859031


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## SK50 (Apr 7, 2013)

This as well indicates that the enzymes may reduce the metabolism of estrogens :

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/6900482.stm


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## Shaftie (Apr 5, 2014)

SK50 said:


> No firm or quality source. I heard it mentioned on a forum and googled 'grapefruit juice trt' and there are a few low quality mentions of it on not-very-scientific sites.
> 
> I have not looked into it in detail - my original post was because I have heard of it and hoped someone would chime in to validate/reject the concept.
> 
> Perhaps the info is sourced from http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7715468


So that one is as expected - grapefruit juice lowered the metabolism of orally delivered estrogen.

It's the other 2 studies (both by the same authors) that are less understandable. Unless the CYP3A4 present in the intestines also contributes to endogenous steroid breakdown?

However the authors themselves write



> "We found that risk was 30% higher in women who consumed the equivalent of one-quarter of a fresh grapefruit or more per day (16 [this is the 2007 study referenced by the BBC article]). The association was seen in never-users of postmenopausal hormone therapy (HT) as well as in HT users. However, *subsequent studies have not found an overall association and in the Nurses' Health Study, stratification by HT showed a significant decrease in breast cancer risk with greater intake of grapefruit in women who never used hormone therapy (17, 18)*"


From their latest study



> "Serum assays for estrone (E1), estradiol (E2), estrone-3-sulfate (E1S), dehydroepiandrosterone sulfate, and sex hormone-binding globulin were conducted. *Whole grapefruit intake had significant effects on endogenous E1S [i.e. NOT estrone or estradiol]*. Peak effects were seen at 8 hr, increasing by 26% from baseline. No changes in mean E1 or E2 with whole fruit intake were observed. *In contrast, fresh juice, bottled juice, and soda intake all had significant lowering effects on E2*."


Soda intake reduced estradiol??? I am unconvinced ... what this suggests to me is that there was something wrong with the way they designed or performed their study.


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## SK50 (Apr 7, 2013)

Well, there are more than enough proponents who I trust out there, such as the articles by @Mike Arnold, to make me try the grapefruit. I am actually experiencing symptoms of high hematocrit when I'm dehydrated (red sun burnt looking face)... and I'm off gear... not good at all. If I can't give blood what else can I do? Bloodlet myself over the toilet? I wanted to go back on cycle soon...

I'm going to take it 12 hours apart from my SSRI - if anyone has any knowledge on whether this is a bad idea please let me know


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## barb86 (Mar 14, 2012)

SK50 said:


> Well, there are more than enough proponents who I trust out there, such as the articles by @Mike Arnold, to make me try the grapefruit. I am actually experiencing symptoms of high hematocrit when I'm dehydrated (red sun burnt looking face)... and I'm off gear... not good at all. If I can't give blood what else can I do? Bloodlet myself over the toilet? I wanted to go back on cycle soon...
> 
> I'm going to take it 12 hours apart from my SSRI - if anyone has any knowledge on whether this is a bad idea please let me know


I tried it mate and after about 20 weeks on 500mg test my crit was 52 - slightly high. I've never got tested for crit without using it so I don't know if it made a difference. Try taking IP-6 too, apparently that can help to keep it down. Apart from that your only option is to give blood.


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## SK50 (Apr 7, 2013)

barb86 said:


> I tried it mate and after about 20 weeks on 500mg test my crit was 52 - slightly high. I've never got tested for crit without using it so I don't know if it made a difference. Try taking IP-6 too, apparently that can help to keep it down. Apart from that your only option is to give blood.


Thanks. Looking into IP-6 now.

That seems like a high hematocrit for 500mg for 20 weeks. Thanks for sharing the info. So it seems that grapefruit juice is unlikely to normalise hematocrit when using supraphysiological amounts of AAS.

Any idea if you can get rid of blood in the UK apart from going to a blood donor centre and lying about AAS usage?


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## Mike Arnold (Apr 12, 2012)

Naringin, the drug-like compound found in grapefruit, is recognized as such by the medical community. This is why patients taking particular medications, such as blood thinners, are told not to consume grapefruit or grapefruit juice with these medications.

In addition, normal values vary among laboratories (not everyone in the medical community agrees 100% on what is considered normal, just as testosterne reference ranges vary slightly, as well) a normal hematocrit can be as high as 54 for adult males. Other laboratories might be as low as 50.3%. Regardless a reading of 52 is still considered well within safe level by basically everyone.

In addition, do not underestimate the effects that 500 mg of testosterone can have on hematocrit, especially over a 20 week period. Some people might mistakenly think that 500mg of testosterone will not have much of an effect on hematocrit simply because this is now considered a fairly low-dose cycle among steroid users, but the truth is that 500 mg of testosterone has a VERY pronounced effect on hematocrit. In fact, just 200 mg of testosterone per week (which is signifiantly more than what the typical male actually produces per week--the average man produces 100 or less) has been shown to elevate hematocrit outside of the normal range (54+). This has recently been a focal point among physicians regarding the safety of TRT.

So, don't think for one second that 500 mg of testosterone should be mild on hematocrit, as this is not the case. It is also important to note that hematocrit does not increase in direct proportion to steroid dose. In other words, 500 mg of testosterone might increase hematocrit as high as 1,000 mg of testosterone, or very close to it. The body has a limit as to how many RBC's it will produce, no matter how much gear someone takes. So, just because someone might be running 3 grams of gear, it does not necessarily mean that their hematocrit will be higher than someone running 1 gram of AAS.

Lastly, personal response will play a significant role in how someone responds to AAS's ability to elevate hematocrit. One's baseline reading will also determine where one eventually ends up. One man using 500 mg of test may have significant problems with hematocrit, achieving a reading of 57 (too high), while another man using 2 grams of gear might hit 51. If a steroid user already has a fairly high hematocrit reading before he even uses AAS, and he is more senstive to the hematocrit elevating effects of AAS than the typical man, he is more likely to have problems than the man who normally has a below-average hematocrit reading and a reduced sensitivity to the hematocrit elevating effects of AAS.

The man in this post, who had a reading of 52 while using 500 mg of test for 20 weeks, would have had a higher reading that if he had not used naringin. Besides, according to several reference ranges he is STILL within the normal range...and even according to the lowest reference ranges, he is barely outside the normal range. Another man taking the same dose might have ended up at 45, due to the different variables mentioned above.

Naringin works. This has been clinically proven on multiple occasions, which again, is the precise reason all patients taking particular medications are told to abstain from grapefruit-containing food items. You can see the evidence fo this by doing a search on PubMed.

I should also point out that naringin is a hematocrit modulator. It is really an amazing drug, as it lowers hematocrit when it is high and increases hematocrit when it is low. Obviously, when someone is taking blood thinners to eliminate a blood clot, the last thing the patient needs is a drug which will bring hematicrit back into a normal range.

Ohh, one more thing. Naringin is not an exact drug. One cannot take naringin at a specific dose in order to elicit a specific raising or lowering of hematocrit, due to its mdulating nature. In other words, if someone had a hematocrit reading of 56 and took an optimal dose of naringin and reduced it to 51, just because the person doubled the dose, it does not mean hematocrit will go even lower. In the same way, if someone's hematocrit is below normal and they take an optimal dose, doubling the dose will not cause hematcrit to go even higher. As long as one takes an optimal dose of naringin (roughly 8 ounces of grapefruit juice daily), it will have whatever effect it is going to have. Taking more will not cause your hematocrit to go higher or lower becase it is a modulator. It raises and lowers hematocrit as it sees fit. This effect will vary from person to person not only based on the variables mentioned above, but also according to how each person responds to naringin. It works in everyone, but it will increasse or lower hematocrit based on what it thinks your body's hematocrit reading should be. Just because you might want a reading of 47 doesnt mean it is going to happen, but it will stop the person from avoidng the exremes on either side.

I recommend that all steroid users take naringin. All AAS, even what we consider fairly low doses (which are really massive doses according to the medical community) will have a profound effect on hematocrit. Don't think you are safe just because you are only using 500 mg per week. It doesn't work that way and the body sure doesn't respond that way. AAS are powerfull drugs with powerfull effects on RBC production. Steroid users, especially long-term users, should make sure they take steps to keep ALL their cardiovascular health markers in line, including blood pressure, lipids, and hematocrit. Their are OTC products (or even foods, as in the case of naringin) which can do this for you. Most people, unless they suffer from genetic conditions, are able to normalize these cardiovascular health markers strictly with OTC products and healthy eating habits.


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## Shaftie (Apr 5, 2014)

From what I've been reading, naringen is not the active compound in grapefruit.

http://www.ualberta.ca/~csps/JPPS4%283%29/S.Wanwimolruk/grapefruit.htm

It looks like there are a lot of different CYP3A4-inhibitng compounds in grapefruit, none of which alone are very potent, but which together add up to produce the effect. Personally I'm going to stick to the whole fruit (partly cos I like 'em).


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## SK50 (Apr 7, 2013)

Mike Arnold said:


> Naringin, the drug-like compound found in grapefruit, is recognized as such by the medical community. This is why patients taking particular medications, such as blood thinners, are told not to consume grapefruit or grapefruit juice with these medications.
> 
> In addition, normal values vary among laboratories (not everyone in the medical community agrees 100% on what is considered normal, just as testosterne reference ranges vary slightly, as well) a normal hematocrit can be as high as 54 for adult males. Other laboratories might be as low as 50.3%. Regardless a reading of 52 is still considered well within safe level by basically everyone.
> 
> ...


Thanks for coming back to post, Mike. I have also just been reading some of your articles on this subject around the net. Great post - this is a very much appreciated contribution


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## SK50 (Apr 7, 2013)

LordShaftesbury said:


> From what I've been reading, naringen is not the active compound in grapefruit.
> 
> http://www.ualberta.ca/~csps/JPPS4%283%29/S.Wanwimolruk/grapefruit.htm
> 
> It looks like there are a lot of different CYP3A4-inhibitng compounds in grapefruit, none of which alone are very potent, but which together add up to produce the effect. Personally I'm going to stick to the whole fruit (partly cos I like 'em).


How about this?

http://www.healthmonthly.co.uk/swanson_herb?gclid=CKu264Wq2L0CFRDItAodbzMAnA


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## Shaftie (Apr 5, 2014)

The "25% naringin" on the label suggests to me they've done some level of purification to try to enrich for that compound (which is counterproductive), but it doesn't look all that pure pure so presumably you'd still get a lot of all the other active compounds along with it. Certainly wouldn't do any harm but then neither would fresh juice/fruit.


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## Mike Arnold (Apr 12, 2012)

LordShaftesbury said:


> From what I've been reading, naringen is not the active compound in grapefruit.
> 
> http://www.ualberta.ca/~csps/JPPS4%283%29/S.Wanwimolruk/grapefruit.htm
> 
> It looks like there are a lot of different CYP3A4-inhibitng compounds in grapefruit, none of which alone are very potent, but which together add up to produce the effect. Personally I'm going to stick to the whole fruit (partly cos I like 'em).


When you say Naringin does not actively modulate hematocrit, you're right and wrong (mostly wrong), but before I explain why, let me first say that grapefruit's ability to interfere with the metabolism of certain drugs and it ability to modulate hematocrit are related, but 2 different effects. Just because one compound is more effective at interfering with the CYP3A4 enzyme does not mean it is better as a hematocrit modulator. The study you posted a link to is rferring to the inhibition of the CYP3A4 enzyme, which is in reference to the compound's ability to interfere with drug metabolism, NOT its ability to modulate hematocrit.

So, the study you posted a link to is irrelevant in terms of naringin's effectiveness as a hematocrit modulator. Even if these 2 effects were one in the same, it still wouldn't matter, as naringenin is an aglycone of naringin. Basically, this means that naringin converts to naringenin in the body through hydrolysis, which occurs when one of the sugar molecules is remove from naringin, forming naringenin. For all intents and purposes, narinegnin is naringin.

Now that we've cleared that up, I will say again that naringin is very effective as a modulator of hematocrit. However, you are right about one thing--and that is that other compounds in grapefruit do have an effect on hematocrit, which is why I always recommend grapefruit juice/whole grapefruit when attemptimng to bringh hematocrit into a normal range, never supplemental naringin alone. Below is a copy & paste from PubMed, which was based on previous research showing naringin's effectiveness at modulating hematocrit. This is a good example of grapefruit's ability to increase/decrase hematocrit based on one's need.

*Ingestion of grapefruit lowers elevated hematocrits in human subjects.*

*
*

*
*Robbins RC, Martin FG, Roe JM.

*Source*

Food Science and Human Nutrition Department, IFAS, University of Florida, Gainesville.

*Abstract*

*This study was based on in vitro observations that naringin isolated from grapefruit induced red cell aggregation and evidence that clumped red cells are removed from the circulation by phagocytosis*. The effect on hematocrits of adding grapefruit to the daily diet was determined using 36 human subjects (12 F, 24 M) over a 42-day study. The hematocrits ranged from 36.5 to 55.8% at the start and 38.8% to 49.2% at the end of the study. There was a differential effect on the hematocrit. The largest decreases occurred at the highest hematocrits and the effect decreased on the intermediate hematocrits; however, the low hematocrits increased. There was no significant difference between ingesting 1/2 or 1 grapefruit per day but a decrease in hematocrit due to ingestion of grapefruit was statistically significant at the p less than 0.01 level.

PMID:3243695 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


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## Mike Arnold (Apr 12, 2012)

LordShaftesbury said:


> From what I've been reading, naringen is not the active compound in grapefruit.
> 
> http://www.ualberta.ca/~csps/JPPS4%283%29/S.Wanwimolruk/grapefruit.htm
> 
> It looks like there are a lot of different CYP3A4-inhibitng compounds in grapefruit, none of which alone are very potent, but which together add up to produce the effect. Personally I'm going to stick to the whole fruit (partly cos I like 'em).


When you say Naringin does not actively modulate hematocrit, you're right and wrong (mostly wrong), but before I explain why, let me first say that grapefruit's ability to interfere with the metabolism of certain drugs and it ability to modulate hematocrit are related, but 2 different effects. Just because one compound is more effective at interfering with the CYP3A4 enzyme does not mean it is better as a hematocrit modulator. The study you posted a link to is rferring to the inhibition of the CYP3A4 enzyme, which is in reference to the compound's ability to interfere with drug metabolism, NOT its ability to modulate hematocrit.

So, the study you posted a link to is irrelevant in terms of naringin's effectiveness as a hematocrit modulator. Even if these 2 effects were one in the same, it still wouldn't matter, as naringenin is an aglycone of naringin. Basically, this means that naringin converts to naringenin in the body through hydrolysis, which occurs when one of the sugar molecules is remove from naringin, forming naringenin. For all intents and purposes, narinegnin is naringin.

Now that we've cleared that up, I will say again that naringin is very effective as a modulator of hematocrit. However, you are right about one thing--and that is that other compounds in grapefruit do have an effect on hematocrit, which is why I always recommend grapefruit juice/whole grapefruit when attemptimng to bringh hematocrit into a normal range, never supplemental naringin alone. Below is a copy & paste from PubMed, which was based on previous research showing naringin's effectiveness at modulating hematocrit. This is a good example of grapefruit's ability to increase/decrase hematocrit based on one's need.

Ingestion of grapefruit lowers elevated hematocrits in human subjects.

Robbins RC, Martin FG, Roe JM.

Source

Food Science and Human Nutrition Department, IFAS, University of Florida, Gainesville.

Abstract

This study was based on in vitro observations that naringin isolated from grapefruit induced red cell aggregation and evidence that clumped red cells are removed from the circulation by phagocytosis. The effect on hematocrits of adding grapefruit to the daily diet was determined using 36 human subjects (12 F, 24 M) over a 42-day study. The hematocrits ranged from 36.5 to 55.8% at the start and 38.8% to 49.2% at the end of the study. There was a differential effect on the hematocrit. The largest decreases occurred at the highest hematocrits and the effect decreased on the intermediate hematocrits; however, the low hematocrits increased. There was no significant difference between ingesting 1/2 or 1 grapefruit per day but a decrease in hematocrit due to ingestion of grapefruit was statistically significant at the p less than 0.01 level.

PMID:3243695 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


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## Shaftie (Apr 5, 2014)

Mike Arnold said:


> When you say Naringin does not actively modulate hematocrit, you're right and wrong (mostly wrong), but before I explain why, let me first say that grapefruit's ability to interfere with the metabolism of certain drugs and it ability to modulate hematocrit are related, but 2 different effects. Just because one compound is more effective at interfering with the CYP3A4 enzyme does not mean it is better as a hematocrit modulator. The study you posted a link to is rferring to the inhibition of the CYP3A4 enzyme, which is in reference to the compound's ability to interfere with drug metabolism, NOT its ability to modulate hematocrit.


Yes you are right, I was referring only to CYP3A4 inhibition, not effects on hematocrit.


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## barb86 (Mar 14, 2012)

SK50 said:


> Thanks. Looking into IP-6 now.
> 
> That seems like a high hematocrit for 500mg for 20 weeks. Thanks for sharing the info. So it seems that grapefruit juice is unlikely to normalise hematocrit when using supraphysiological amounts of AAS.
> 
> Any idea if you can get rid of blood in the UK apart from going to a blood donor centre and lying about AAS usage?


I'm sure you can because there are plenty of guys on trt, whether a regular dr can prescribe a therapeutic phlebotomy or not though I'm not sure. Not really looked into it to be honest because there's no way in hell I'm giving blood regularly

And for anyone thinking of trying it, get tested before & after (whilst properly hydrated)!! You can just drink grapefruit juice too so need need to p*ss about actually eating them


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## SK50 (Apr 7, 2013)

Mike Arnold said:


> When you say Naringin does not actively modulate hematocrit, you're right and wrong (mostly wrong), but before I explain why, let me first say that grapefruit's ability to interfere with the metabolism of certain drugs and it ability to modulate hematocrit are related, but 2 different effects. Just because one compound is more effective at interfering with the CYP3A4 enzyme does not mean it is better as a hematocrit modulator. The study you posted a link to is rferring to the inhibition of the CYP3A4 enzyme, which is in reference to the compound's ability to interfere with drug metabolism, NOT its ability to modulate hematocrit.
> 
> So, the study you posted a link to is irrelevant in terms of naringin's effectiveness as a hematocrit modulator. Even if these 2 effects were one in the same, it still wouldn't matter, as naringenin is an aglycone of naringin. Basically, this means that naringin converts to naringenin in the body through hydrolysis, which occurs when one of the sugar molecules is remove from naringin, forming naringenin. For all intents and purposes, narinegnin is naringin.
> 
> Now that we've cleared that up, I will say again that naringin is very effective as a modulator of hematocrit. However, you are right about one thing--and that is that other compounds in grapefruit do have an effect on hematocrit, which is why I always recommend grapefruit juice/whole grapefruit when attemptimng to bringh hematocrit into a normal range, never supplemental naringin alone. Below is a copy & paste from PubMed, which was based on previous research showing naringin's effectiveness at modulating hematocrit. This is a good example of grapefruit's ability to increase/decrase hematocrit based on one's need.


So, the past 3 days I have been drinking grapefruit juice - I take it 12 hours apart from my SSRI, but I am still clearly having the adverse effects one would expect by taking them together simultaneously (palpitations, panic attacks etc).

From the above paragraph, am I to understand that if I get a pure naringin supplement, then I can get some of the hematocrit modulation effects, without having the typical grapefruit enzyme effects which would interact with my SSRI?

Thanks


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## Mike Arnold (Apr 12, 2012)

SK50 said:


> So, the past 3 days I have been drinking grapefruit juice - I take it 12 hours apart from my SSRI, but I am still clearly having the adverse effects one would expect by taking them together simultaneously (palpitations, panic attacks etc).
> 
> From the above paragraph, am I to understand that if I get a pure naringin supplement, then I can get some of the hematocrit modulation effects, without having the typical grapefruit enzyme effects which would interact with my SSRI?
> 
> Thanks


The whole grapefruit works best, as multiple compounds combine to maximize its hematocrit modulating effect. Besides, I dont know if naringin would have that effect on your medications, so I can't recommend it.


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## Mike Arnold (Apr 12, 2012)

LordShaftesbury said:


> Yes you are right, I was referring only to CYP3A4 inhibition, not effects on hematocrit.


Gotcha.


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## musclemate (Sep 14, 2012)

Apparently grapefruit juice shouldn't be taken erection meds like Viagra. It amplifies the effect of lowering blood pressure.


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## SK50 (Apr 7, 2013)

Mike Arnold said:


> The whole grapefruit works best, as multiple compounds combine to maximize its hematocrit modulating effect. Besides, I dont know if naringin would have that effect on your medications, so I can't recommend it.


Thanks, I understand.

From what I read my SSRI is metabolised by CYP3A4 and CYP2C19. And naringin alone doesn't appear to inhibit CYP2C19, whereas whole grapefruit does. This is just based on my own google research so I'm not sure. I am going to just try it.

Unless anyone else knows the answer to this rather random question...


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## Mike Arnold (Apr 12, 2012)

SK50 said:


> Thanks, I understand.
> 
> From what I read my SSRI is metabolised by CYP3A4 and CYP2C19. And naringin alone doesn't appear to inhibit CYP2C19, whereas whole grapefruit does. This is just based on my own google research so I'm not sure. I am going to just try it.
> 
> Unless anyone else knows the answer to this rather random question...


Naringin itself doesn't cause significant inhibition of CYP3A4 (it does to a small degree), but like I said in a prior post, naringin turns into naringenin in the body, which has significant CYP3A4 inhibiting effects. So, taking naringin WOULD significantly interere with the metabolism of your medication.


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