# A lot of questions: Shoulders....routines and broadnesd....



## thanutz (Dec 30, 2004)

Hi every1,

Sorry if this sort of topic has been brought up alot but im fairly new to the forum. It will be long read so sorry.

Ive been trainign on and off for 4 years....but i only have been takign really seriosuly in the last year and have noticed some real gains...however recently been stuck in a rut.

My shoulders arent getting much stronger and i think its the rear shoulders rather than the front ones cos preciously when dumbell shoulder press was my main compound excercise i was doing it with 30 on each arm...which i think is quite good for me... But the last few times i have been trainign shoulders ive been really stuggling and it really is hurting when doing raises behind my neck with a smith machine...so much so im not lidfting f all.... So i need some excercises to really concentrate that rear shoulder muscle and strengthen it....

I also want my shoulders to be a tad broader...

I wont be building much longer i have few goals...slightly bigger and benching solid sets of 100 and then ill really cut hard.... Below is my routine any advcie would be much appreciated to help me reach my goal:

Typical day: (whey has 23g of protein per scoop) i weigh 11.7-9 stone

Breakfast: 2 eggs (boiled) 2 slices of toast

Brunch: 2 scoops protein shake (sometime brunch is at breakfast due to time contraints)

Lunch:2 sanwiches one with tuna (about 3/4 can) and one witrh chicken (1/2 breast)

Pre Gym snack: energy bar + sometimes banana

After gym: 2 scoop protein

Dinner: can of tuna broccoli n bolide veg or chicken vbreast

Gym: 6 day split...yusually go gym 5 times a week and sometime extend weekend workout so i can fit it all in. Abs every day involving leg raises crunches weighted twist. Warm up of 5-10 min boxing and wlaking 2 the gym + stretchin and cool down 10 mins boxing

Day1: shoulders: 3-4 sets 6-8 reps

Smith raise behind neckl

shioulder press

shrugs

barbell raise to neck

barbell behind neck raise

Day2: Bicep

Standing curl

preahcer curl

seated dumbell curl

hammer curl

pull downs/chin ups

Day 3 chest:

Bench press

Inclien press(dumbell)

Decline press (dumbell)

fly(dumbell)

crossover

Day 4 Tris:

Weighted dips

Weighed bench dips

skull crushers

pull downs

Day 5: Back

Weighted Pull ups

Deadlifts

Arm raises

lateral row/tbar row

one other excercise i cant rmember name

Day 6: Leg

Squat

Calf raises

Leg pushes

Thanks Guys

Anil


----------



## Guest (Jan 18, 2005)

You are overtrained!!!! Your shoulders are overworked to the point that you are now losing size/strength and probably feel lethargic and don't want to train. At the very least you have reached a plateau and won't make any gains until your body recovers. Take 2 weeks off from the gym and eat more protien. Cut back to 3 days a week. Don't do pressing movements every time. You are just begging for a shoulder injury with you current routine. Try doing all upper body pressing movements on Monday(chest, shoulders, and triceps), legs on Wedensday, and upper body pulling movements on Friday(back and biceps). Cut back the total number of sets and exercises.


----------



## Guest (Jan 18, 2005)

Mate change ure days around to shoulders, tris, biceps legs, chest, back just as an example bcoz u shouldnt be training shoulders then biceps or tris then chest thats counterproductive. But as far as volume 5 or 6 short 1 hour workouts a week is fine. Take 2 weeks off hmmmm cut back to 3 days not sure I agree and u can overtrain but being in an overtrained state that takes two weeks to recover is a new 1 to me considering the bodies powers of recovery.

push and pull split is a good idea yeah but I personally know anil and he is more advanced than to work out 3 times a week lowering the volume so drastically of his routine to simple push and pull this is what id reccomend for a beginner. Personally I have already spoke to him and reckon he's undereating aside from that and switching the days around I think all that was pretty solid


----------



## Guest (Jan 18, 2005)

Hi,im in no possision to criticise or offer advice as ive only been training 3-4 months,but reading your post it seems your not eating near enougth especially considering your grueling routine.I personally think you should do a little less in the gym and eat much more,just up the portions ie instead of two sandwiches have four.You do seem to have a good physique though, so you obviously know what ure doing.Its getting in to the habbit of eating regurly and the right foods (depending on your goals).Im in a plateau myself if you like read my post i sent earlier today 18th you might be able to offer me advice as i struggle with training as i train at home,my post also has my diet on thier if you want to have a look let me know what you think?(post title GAINS STOPPED WHY?) :wink:


----------



## thanutz (Dec 30, 2004)

Hi,

thanks for all the advice...i think food is prob an issue...i read all ure posts divie but am in position to reply to ure post as im in the same issue...not going any where....

Im at university and food seems to be a majour cost which is the problem with eating good food...i could definatly eat crap 24/7 but that wouldnt help.

As for overtrainign i dont think so... im in the gym (excluding changing and stuff) for only an hour id say at most 1hr 30 when training two muscle groups.

if some one could give some excercies to ass variety to my shopulder and broaden them as to shock my muscles i would be greatful...cheers

Anil


----------



## Guest (Jan 18, 2005)

The two weeks off is a great way to let your body heal completely from overtraining to the point you'll be dying to get back to the gym and get a proper workout. Also gives plenty of time to re-evaluate your training, diet, and actual goals. It's just a reccomendation. As his workout stands he's taxing his shoulders on days 1,3,and 5. Way too much. Sometimes switching back to a simple begginer's program can re-energize new growth especially from such an overtrained state. Intensity is much more result giving than volume. More than likely more total calories and total protein per day is needed.


----------



## Guest (Jan 19, 2005)

Good god the mind boggles as to were some of you guys get these training routines, do you just pluck them out of thin air.

YOU ARE OVER TRAINING listen to what the guys are saying you ask for help and when its given you ignore it.

You are a begginer you need a simple routine of basic mass builders i've been training a long time and can easy get my arm to 20" i only use 2 exercises per body part 2-3 sets of each and each body part is only trained once every 6 days.

when you train your muscle it first needs time to rest then to recover and only when this has happened completly will it grow if you train again before you are fully recovered all you are doing is breaking the muscle down again causing loss of size and strength. if you want to progress switch to the routine in the bodybuilding training forum "a good solid begginers training routine" if you dont want to make any progress stick to what you think.

As for diet when your trying to add size you need to eat as much as poss and get 1.5 grams protein and 2 grams of carbs per pound of bodyweight.

One other point pain is felt for a reason its your body telling you that you need to stop doing what your doing as it is causing injury listen to your body if an exercise causes pain change exercise train the muscle from a different angle.

If you need anything else just ask.


----------



## thanutz (Dec 30, 2004)

Hey gary,

I was not ignoring his advice, i have so many different things from ppl in the gym on the forum and from books that its hard to find out what is right for me....sych as tarinign for no longer than hour, split sessions, rest days...etc. But i have had some time to think and reflect on what u and i think chris said.

Eating if my first problem...i will eat more simple. Im planing on make some protein bars fro wehy and oatmeal to help me eat on the go and i will eat before i go to bed/have a large shake...I prob wont build for more than a month as i dont want to get more than 12.5 stone at my goal so may bulk to 13-13.5 (am just under 12 at mo) . I will keep on the creatine.

As for trainign gonna take a few days off....i took a week off three weeks ago due to the gymn closure and was quite slack with my routine over christmas...but found i mainted more than anything..

So lets say 3 day a week Mon Wed and Fri (poss a weekend 2 for small hidden muscle groups??) with warm up cool down stretching and abs in each session

Day 1: Shoulder Bis

1 Shoulder excercise (compound need advice and cant be dumbell press)

Stand up preacher bar curl

Upright row???

Hammer Curls

Day 2: Chest Tris

Bench Press

Weighted Dips

Fly

Skull Crushers

Day 3: Back n Legs

Squats

Deadlifts

Calf Raises

T Bar Row

Leg Pushes

Any advice guys on changing what muscles im working together with things i could eat/ better excercise would be much appreciated. Especially a shoulder excercie and something taht will really widen my shoulders....

Thanks

Anil


----------



## Benji1466867921 (Oct 2, 2004)

> So lets say 3 day a week Mon Wed and Fri (poss a weekend 2 for small hidden muscle groups??) with warm up cool down stretching and abs in each session
> 
> Day 1: Shoulder Bis
> 
> ...


Legs and back??

Thats Quads, hamstrings, calves, Lats, Rhomboids, Traps and lower back

and then Shoulders and biceps??

I'd say train Legs on there own add back with biceps, and train shoulders with chest

How about this?

Legs

Squats

Leg Press

Hamstring Curls

Calf Press

Back & Biceps

Chins/Lat pulldowns

Deadlift

T Bar rows

Shrugs

Stand up preacher bar curl

Chest, Shoulders & Triceps

Bench Press

Flys

Shoulder Press

Weighted Dips

Skull Crushers


----------



## thanutz (Dec 30, 2004)

Thanks benj for ure input...i agree with what ure saying and u have layed out a good routine for me... Just a quick question...my main goals are slightly broader shouklders (not by much) ad bigger arms...so i really wanna work my tris for this. Im not too bithered about my legs (sure u have haeard that 1 b4) how can i incioporate that in my work out.? is that enough shoulders?

For all who has repied to my posts....thanks so much for all the advice i assure u im not ignoring it im taking ti all in board and giving ti carful thought and findin out what is best for me!

If i have caused any offence to any of u it was not my intention.

Thanks every1!

Anil


----------



## Guest (Jan 19, 2005)

BUMP TO GAR 8472

as for press behind neck, pull downs behind neck and upright rowing.... bin them!

if you want more width to your shoulders do nice strict lateral raises.

btw is that your gixer in your pic???


----------



## Guest (Jan 19, 2005)

Hey Gary im not criticising what u said when i disagree but i personally know anil so have am at an advantage in that respect when commenting on him. First he's not what i would consider a begginner he has slightly different goals to many bodybuilders but he's been training for 4 years on and off and a year solid, i know bcoz i train with him pretty regularly.

I think hes probably a bit more advanced and can cope with a greater workload than the begginners standard 3 days a week compound exercises focused routines. And I know the last thing he was doing was ignoring any1's advice. Just my short two cents worth I just really think that the last thing he wants to be doing is cutting down his gym time so drastically overtraining sucks its just an excuse to go home and not work as intensely IMO but then this is what works 4 me personally i respond better to a higher volume of exercise. Anil u may wanna consider giving a go to this for a few months to c where it takes u but im not sure it will help u achieve what u want. Ah well it will give u more time to go out and study (wel actually just go out) take it easy mate.


----------



## Benji1466867921 (Oct 2, 2004)

> my main goals are slightly broader shouklders (not by much) ad bigger arms...so i really wanna work my tris for this


This should come with time, don't fall in to the trap alot of people fall into and work these body parts too much and overtrain them, causing them to grow even slower! Just make sure you hit them hard and concetrate on incresing lifts each workout.


----------



## thanutz (Dec 30, 2004)

Thanks guys for all ure advice:

Benjy

new routine starts next week aside from food which starts now...i just dont wanna loose what i have now cos i can dip with 30 kgs 3 sets of 8 ( abit of stuggle towards the end) with a belt...im just scared of loosing my gains!!!

Gymwear

I do lateral raises at the moment.... what sort of weight are we talking about....i cand 15kgs on each arm but my technique is often 2 fast and perhaps isnt uasing the right muslces...shall i just stick to tens and be slow and controlled????i think thats a suilly question but always nice for some confirmation. why bin those excercises are they no good...i can dumbell press quite alot when som1 is there as i get worried some times and need help in case i drop it...Any shoulder excercises u wanna recommened.. .as for the gsxr yp its my baby only had here sicne decmeber had a 400 b4 i think ill stick to a 600 though may 750 when im much much older...but prob not...do u ride??? oh and whats BUMP Gar 8472???? sorry if im being thick

Tom 84

I def think my food intake is a majour prob...i didnt change irt much when i was cutting to building so am gonna increase. its all a learnign curve and my intial trainign had no movement cos i was lacking knowledge that i am now gaining...thanks for all the support big man!

Cheers every1


----------



## Guest (Jan 20, 2005)

Dont worry you didn't offend anyone, and what i ment by ignoring advice is the fact that alot of guys start training and believe the more you do the better the results, and for most things in life thats true the more effort the more reward but they get stuck in the mind set of more is better its not not for bodybuilding anyway.

Weather your classed as a begginer or intermediate or advanced isn't determined by how long you've been training but by how much you know and how you apply that knowledge. An intermediate will have a full routione worked out that works for them and is producing steady good results and will understand why its working. You are still confused and don't really sound like you are sure of any of the basic principles.

I'm 37 I've been training since i was 17 i've made alot of mistakes and learned from them. From 16 to 30 i read just about every bodybuilding mag that was printed I read them over and over making sure i absorbed every usefull bit of information i know what im talking about.

I've already told you what to do the routine i told you about is exactly what you need its up to you what you do with the information but i'm not gunna repeat my self. You say your going to try it and in the same sentence say that your going to add to it by training "hidden" muscle groups on weekends, which changes the routine immediately. what are these hidden muscle groups.

PS. press behind neck is a great exercise for rear delts and traps. I never train shoulder without it.


----------



## thanutz (Dec 30, 2004)

Hey Gary,

I said hidden muscle groups as a suggestion and wanted a response to it. And i didnt mean both days just one...sorry wasnt clear. So what do u suggest i do for my shoulders??? No one has suggested a compound excercise i should do to see/obtain the most gains. The behind the neck press is the only excercise i was getting pains from, i dont know why i usually dont get aches n pains so was obviously concerned. Like u say i need knowledge which is what im trying to gain....I never once questioned ure knwoledge gary, your more experienced, which is why im grateful for ure advice.

Thanks

Anil


----------



## Guest (Jan 20, 2005)

Dont get me wrong bud, I know I don't always come across how I mean to in text but every thing i say is in good humour.

Where are the pains you get when pressing behind neck in your traps, delts tris joints or muscles. These pains can be the result of over training.

Shoulder presses are the best overall exercise for the delts, but if you cant use it to work the rear head what about bent over laterals they hit the rear heads too.

I'm going to work out a full new routine for guys who won't use the other one because they think its not advanced enough for them (though that exact routine got me to 18.5 inch arms and a 90kg for 10 reps shoulder press) I'll make it a split routine i'll post it in the next few days depends on my spare time. I'll post here again when its done.


----------



## Olorin (Nov 27, 2004)

Check out this site:

http://www.exrx.net/Lists/Directory.html


----------



## Olorin (Nov 27, 2004)

Did some Arnold presses today after looking at this site, they seem a lot tougher the normal dumb bell press. Mabye I'll end up with shoulders like the big man himself... or mabye not :roll:


----------



## thanutz (Dec 30, 2004)

Olorin that sites really good shows u everything! Thanks Gary...

Anil


----------



## mutley1466867920 (Apr 24, 2004)

Hi Anil,

Some pretty good advice has been given here, but of all of the advice that you have been given, I hope you listen to Garry's...If you don't do so now, you'll get there eventually by yourself eventually

Just a comment from you old routine. 5 seperate exercises on the bicep ? Such a small muscle group, should be fatigued by 2 exercises/ 3-4 sets each - as long as you are applying the correct form, intensity and focus.

Your diet is light, but you were drastically overtraining as well. You obviously have drive which is great, but just getting your diet in order without engaging in a decent routine won't sort your problem.

All of the components need to be right for bodybuilding to work as efficiently as possible, and it is a fact that it's how you treat your body outside of the gym that has the greatest effect.

Some guy on here has a sig that says 50% of bodybuilding is nutrition and 50% is not overtraining. 100% True and always worth bearing in mind.

Good Luck. It takes a bit of courage to cut back on your routine if you are overtraining because you are concerned it will have a negative effect, but you won't regret it...


----------



## MrSkinny (Mar 9, 2005)

howdy all,

Thanutz, your not alone, I made the exact same mistake as you did. I started training at 17/18 (i.m 31 now) and have been training on and off for most of this time. when I was in my early 20's I did 4-day-a-week split routines at about 2 hours at a time with 2 further days of intense cardio work. Was very cut but no mass at all. Way too many exercises per body part. And as I was only getting marginal gains, I got really frustrated at this lack of gain so started training much harder until I was totally exhausted after each session. Definetly over trained. Also never touched creatine/protein shakes. What a tit'ead eh 

I think Gary and the other guys are right. don't really matter how long you train, one can still make the basic mistakes over and over again. Even though I have been training for a relatively long time I consider my self as beginner (maybe to intermediate). I think its because there is so much crap advice about and a lot is aimed at serious bodybuilders. Interestingly enough I have been back 2 months now after gap of 2 years. I have been reading a lot of the posts and taken advice on board. I have reached my max weight ever (might be a bit more body fat going on now, though). Nowhere near as much strength as before but getting there. This is where a log book helps. I was looking at it last night. In 1995 I used to do 3 sets of 12, 140kg deep squats and I am 6'3" and have skinny legs. Now I'd image its like 100kg (don't do them though)

Finally, I really recommend doing proper form and avoiding the bad exercises as thebigskev says. I totally f#cked my back up years ago through poor squat and sit ups. I ended up off work for 9 months due to ruptered 3 disks and damaged sciatic nerves. My spinal cord was left permanently damaged and some exercises I cannot possible do.

Also used to have a shoulder pain. In the gym one day, a guy suggested it might be due to lat pulls behind the head. He was right, when I stopped in went away!

Thats my 2 cents worth

cheers all


----------

