# If excess bodyfat is carbohydrates then?



## Karl Sanders (Feb 10, 2006)

Say like me you have some excess bodyfat, and are just about to start building muscle. If you need carbohydrates to build muscle (as is obviously the case) then why can't you just eat more protein and use the excess carbohydrates that your body has stored as flab, that way you can get bigger muscles and lose bodyfat, or can the body just not release the stored carbohydrates fast enough?

I have heard that newbies do lose some excess bodyfat when they start out, how long does this last for, I am now only about 5 pounds overweight (having lost 30 pounds since Jan 06) can I expect to lose this 5 pounds before the "newbie" effect wears off, bearing in mind that most of the extra protein I will be getting is from lean whey protein (but not protein isolate).

Thanks


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

Excess bodyfat is body fat from excess calories....

you do need an amount of carbs to help build muscle but the amount you need with be diffrent from person to person.

for example i can build on 200-300g per day where i know guys who cannot unless they eat in excess of 500g....

the newbie effect you speak about is because you are now doing more exercise than you used to which in turn will burn calories, if the body has calories from ffod available it will tap into this fuel source first but if you have no fuel from carbs available then your body will switch to fat for fuel....but this is not a simple as it sounds.

what you need to do is to construct an eating plan that will be suited to yourself with a starting macro amount of.

Protein = 1-1.5g per lb of bodyweight

Carbs = 2-3g per lb of bodyweight

Fats = .25g per lb of bodyweight

this type of eating will allow you to build new muscle whilst monotoring your energy levels and bodyfat...

remember though that you need to eat good fats in a diet....

hope this helps mate.


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## Karl Sanders (Feb 10, 2006)

Thanks for the advice, but what if i take your advice about the amount of protein and fat I need daily, but deliberately have fewer carbs (I don't mean starve myself of carbs, but lets say I only have 1.5 X bodyweight) will this make my body use of the carbs in my flab?


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

there is no carbs in your flab please get this out of your head your flab is fat pure and simple it is caused by excess calories be that from fat/carbs or protein the end result if stored by the body is fat..

the only way to increase the use of your fat stores is to burn more cals than you take in you can accomplish this by training and performing cardio...

you could switch to a carb cycling style diet which would increase the use of fat by the body by decreasing the amount of carbs in the diet but not eliminating them altogether.

i have created a post called timed carbs in this forum check it out this will explain things a little better.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Basicly if you have more carbohydrates intake than you can store in the muscle and liver which is about 220-500 grams depending on the amount of lean muscle. You will store those excess carbohydrates as fat.

Not rocket science here.

The liver stores about 120 grams of glucose, the rate of burn is about 5 grams of carbs per hour.

After about 24 hours of zero carbs the liver glucose levels will be depleted.

If your glycogen stores are full and your liver is full, you WILL store that as fat, the body is just using this for the future. This is called spillover.

Avoiding this is a good thing if fat loss is preferred.

Keeping the glucagon to insulin ratio level or in check, you will allow the body to tap into its fat stores via glucagon, and also tap in to the anabolic effects of insulin.

Too much insulin for too long will end up taking over and more fat will be gained, this is not a good idea due to the bad effects of too much insulin for long periods of time, inflammation, heart disease, bodyfat, carbohydrate addictions, etc.

Insulin drives down blood sugars, glucagon drives up blood sugars, insulin is anabolic but also promotes fat storage, glucagon is catabolic but also burns fat.

The whole idea is to keep the glucagon to insulin ratio in order and you can build muscle and lose bodyfat easier if this is done.

Most people are sugar burners (insulin), to get into fat loss you need to be a fat burner (glucagon).


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Oh, sorry I forgot this little part of the equation

Carbohydrates drive up insulon (so does large meals, regardless of macro).

Protein drives up glucagon.

Reading above, this is important.

Anyone see a key here?


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## Tatyana (Jan 29, 2006)

Hun,

your body will store anything in excess into fat. Protein into fat, fat into fat, not just carbohydrates. It's clever that way.

Certain amino acids also kick off insulin. Insulin is released every 15 minutes from your pancreas no matter what you do.

Refined carbohydrates like white flower and sugar are a problem in excess, yes, however whole grains, IMO are not that bad.

Insulin is not a transport hormone, it is a hormone of nutrient storage, and not just glucose as glycogen, trigs as fat, but also amino acids into the muscles.

Yes I get reducing carbs for people who have eaten the typical N. American fast food diet is a good idea. I have read somewhere that it is the hydrogenated fats that block up the glucose transporters.

I think that people can burn their pancreas out from eating loads of sugar and refined carbs as well.

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T


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Tatyana said:


> Insulin is not a transport hormone, it is a hormone of nutrient storage, and not just glucose as glycogen, trigs as fat, but also amino acids into the muscles.


Insulin is a transport hormone.

It transports into the muscles and into adipose tissue. Without insulin this process won't work. It is a transport hormone, and considered a storage hormone too.

If I want to send a package somewhere it gets picked up transported to its destination and then dropped off.

It is the same with insulin.

For clarity sake, it is easier for the body to store fat calorie for calorie with carbohydrates.

The higher the GI of the carb this is accelerated even more.

If you are trying to tell me that fat will store like a carb calorie for calorie this is incorrect.

Some fats have zero effect on insulin.

Without this storage hormone the fat wont store as fat.

The body is pretty smart with fat. If eaten alone the body does not want a large supply of fat. You will never see a guy drink a glass of oil, eat a cube of butter, etc. you will see people eating fats and carbs together in large quantities.

The body knows its amounts of fat it needs.

On the grain issue, I for one think they are not a good idea to have in the diet, with the exception of some steel rolled oats, but with the introduction of the agricultural age we lost 5 inches in height.

The Paleolithic diet is much closer to where we need to be in my opinion.

We have been eating more processed carbohydrates than ever, society is getting fatter, the low fat suggestion of the past is part of the problem too, along with hydrogenated oils, trans fats and even polyunsaturated vegetables being some of the problem too.

Fat is your friend, fat wont make you fat, fat suppresses insulin.


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## basil (Apr 24, 2006)

can any one give me some advice on my routine


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

basil said:


> can any one give me some advice on my routine


Sure, start a new thread.

Oh, welcome to the board.


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## Peg (Feb 9, 2006)

Basil make a thread in form and technique forum and post your training routine.

If it's diet and you want to lose fat, post it here.

There are many successful bodybuilders here who will help you sort out your routine.

Hackskii: SNAP!

lol

cheers


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## Tatyana (Jan 29, 2006)

Scott,

Insulin does not carry any of the macronutrients anywhere.

By transportation do you mean this:

Insulin binds to the surface of cells, it has receptors called GLUT-1 through 5. There are different GLUT insulin receptors for different tissue types, i.e) RBCs, kidney, brain, muscle, etc.

These receptors then send a cascade signal response into the cell's cytoplasm. This causes glucose transporters to be mobilised to the cell's surface, which then transport glucose into the cell.

I could get some piccies of the GLUT receptors and the cascade system, and the glucose transporters.

The exact process by which glucose transports amino acids and fats into cells, well would have to look that up, but insulin does not transport nutrients through the bloodstream to the cells.

People get confused really easily hun. Like that lad that thought his flab was carbohydrates.

Did you see the thread about BBing myths on 'the other site' where we were discussing the easier fat storage when you eat fat and carbs together?

Ok so if we kick off with the carb thing again, play nice ok 

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T


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

please don't make this thread over complicated the original poster is obvouisly new to the scene and i think everything he needs to know has allready been said any more information will just confuse him more and to be honest is not needed


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## Tatyana (Jan 29, 2006)

True Paul

Scott and I do this A LOT! My bad!

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T


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Tatyana said:


> Did you see the thread about BBing myths on 'the other site' where we were discussing the easier fat storage when you eat fat and carbs together?


*I have the book and it is pretty awesome called Natural Hormonal Enhancement.*

Just for the record if you ate a potato with some butter on it the butter can store as fat.

But if you ate half the potato and added butter then the butter would lower the glycemic load of the potato and this would not store as easy.

Just so we are clear on this, it is the presence of carbohydrates (in volume) that will make fat store as fat, it is not the fat that is prone to fat storage but the presence of insulin from the carbohydrate.

Large volumes of food regardless of the macro can raise insulin and promote fat storage.

I will start a thread on topics from the book in a few days. I like the book but see some things that just dont add up.

I will take pieces and piece together an article explaining things from the book, as after 100 pages it is all info and little application.


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## Swift (Apr 14, 2006)

i tried cuttin out carbs thinking the same as you once an it made me feel awful, not sure if it was a direct result of that but i felt like ****


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

drasticly cutting carbs out of your diet without thinking of replacing the cals lost with extra protein and good fats is suicide...unfortunatly people look at the easy option and dropping carbs will make you drop weight garenteed but if you do not spend the time planning the diet you will be fatigued and the fatloss will be very little most weight loss will be in the way of water loss..


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## Swift (Apr 14, 2006)

Pscarb said:


> drasticly cutting carbs out of your diet without thinking of replacing the cals lost with extra protein and good fats is suicide...unfortunatly people look at the easy option and dropping carbs will make you drop weight garenteed but if you do not spend the time planning the diet you will be fatigued and the fatloss will be very little most weight loss will be in the way of water loss..


spot on, i realised quickly something wasn't right an changed back to a proper diet


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## Tinytom (Sep 16, 2005)

Tatyana said:


> Hun,
> 
> your body will store anything in excess into fat. Protein into fat, fat into fat, not just carbohydrates. It's clever that way.


Don't agree with this.

The body will do what it easiest and therefore excess fat and carbohydrates will be converted to bodyfat more readily than protein.

It's already been said that amino acids can be converted to glucose by gluconeogenesis. COnsidering that the body uses 20% of the calories derived from protein just in digesting and processing it and the additional calories in converting amino acids to glucose, it seems unlikely that it would then convert it to fat.

More likely it would just excrete it through the urine.

I don't know anyone that got fat through excessive protein intake.


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## Tatyana (Jan 29, 2006)

True the thermogenic quality of protein is higher so less likely.

I think if someone ate a cow every day it might happen. 

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T


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## Tinytom (Sep 16, 2005)

Tatyana said:


> I think if someone ate a cow every day it might happen.


What an Udderly insane suggestion.

I moove that no-one could eat a whole cow.

I think you are milking the point.


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## Swift (Apr 14, 2006)

Tinytom said:


> What an Udderly insane suggestion.
> 
> I moove that no-one could eat a whole cow.
> 
> I think you are milking the point.


lol nice post


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Well, large volume of food regardless of macros will raise insulin and cholesterol.

Eating like this is not a good idea.

Smaller meals do not have this effect on insulin unless they are of the high glycemic persuasion.

Feast and famine is what you are telling the body you are doing with big meals.

Now this could be an approach if lets say you didn't eat for a couple of days then the body's stores will be utilized from that meal that was saved for just this occasion.

Eating smaller meals will speed the metabolism, have better control of spiking blood sugar levels, lower insulin production and have less inflammation in the body, not to mention lower cholesterol levels as well.

Not only that, but also help with insulin sensitivity.

So if you keep the meals smaller, eat more frequently, eat fats, proteins, carbohydrates together in about equal proportions you will be less likely to store fat and more likely to lose body fat if this is what you are shooting for.

Not only that, but in the presence of insulin, fat loss stops dead and also GH production.


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

i wonder if we had a p1ssing contest who would win


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## Tatyana (Jan 29, 2006)

Pscarb said:


> i wonder if we had a p1ssing contest who would win


OH don't get me started Paul. It would fall in that 'too much information' category or 'only in Europe/France' would they do something like that!



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T

I have had a very interesting and full on life!


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## Tinytom (Sep 16, 2005)

Pscarb said:


> i wonder if we had a p1ssing contest who would win


That depends if you are talking about volume of urine or length of stream.

Or maybe colour?

Or smell?

Not very specific Mr Scarb?


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

i think i have made my point.....

this member who has not replied on this thread....asked a basic question which in fairness was answered but then we had to all get all deep and technical with the answers that where given...in my opinion some of the answers where to much and are very hard for some people to follow...


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## Tatyana (Jan 29, 2006)

Tinytom said:


> That depends if you are talking about volume of urine or length of stream.
> 
> Or maybe colour?
> 
> ...


 and I just about wet myself laughing!

Tom

I could tell you exactly why you wee is yellow and poo is brown! Biochemically speaking.

Paul you have a point. I do think we need the KISS principle Keep It Simple Stupid

Sorry, couldn't help myself with the wee thing though. I didn't go into detail though. I could! I luuuuuuuuuuuuuurve biochemical pathways.

OH PLEASE let me have the space to put up the details of that one at some point.

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T


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