# Shorter high does cycles vs Longer low dose cycles



## bayaga (Feb 24, 2012)

I've been wondering about the effectiveness of shorter, higher dose cycles vs cycles which are longer but lower dosages.

Is one more effective than the other and is one more suppressive or do they average out?

Say there was the choice between:

12 weeks of 500mg of testosterone pw

VS

8 weeks of 750mg testosterone pw

This is just an example off the top of my head since I've seen many differing suggestions for similar compounds. Does anyone have any experience comparing both types?


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## stone14 (Mar 24, 2005)

The lower the dose the quicker the body can adjust to it so imo higher doses are better. Can take the brain 2-3weeks to start to adjust to big changes like hormone changes and why gains shoot up in the 1st 6weeks then drop, this is the body counteracting the aas.

So to run a low dose will only make it easier for the body to catch up imo.


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## Dux (Nov 29, 2011)

Higher for longer


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## bayaga (Feb 24, 2012)

Cheers stone. How bout in terms of shutdown and subsequent recovery?


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## BIG BUCK (Mar 26, 2010)

I'm just about to do a high one month blast , so I'll see!


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## Sambuca (Jul 25, 2012)

what u running bb2?


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## alan_wilson (Feb 25, 2012)

I read @ausbuilt say that your body needs plenty of time in order to adapt to the changes, so I'd imagine a lower dose for long would be better


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## Kamwe kuacha (Jun 19, 2011)

BB2 said:


> I'm just about to do a high one month blast , so I'll see!





Sambuca said:


> what u running bb2?


I'd like to know too!


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## BIG BUCK (Mar 26, 2010)

Growth, test, t3, masteron, m tren, all at high doses, I'd have to ask dutch if I'm allowed to give exact amounts and lengths, I'd like to gain 5 kilos keeping the same bf or less, that's the idea anyway........ It's all in the diet though!


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## Andy Dee (Jun 1, 2008)

alan_wilson said:


> I read @ausbuilt say that your body needs plenty of time in order to adapt to the changes, so I'd imagine a lower dose for long would be better


ah didnt see this part, must be true then.


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## alan_wilson (Feb 25, 2012)

andysutils said:


> ah didnt see this part, must be true then.


Well that's his opinion, which is normally backed up pretty well, but doesn't mean it's 100% fact.

Trial and error I suppose will tell.


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## Bull Terrier (May 14, 2012)

chilisi said:


> Both work really well, with the right diet and training methods.
> 
> I've done both and both are great.
> 
> Shorter length, higher dose cycles work best for me now.


Presumably just on shorter esters?

If you were on longer esters what is the shortest course which you would do? With some sort of kickstart?


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## Bull Terrier (May 14, 2012)

chilisi said:


> Hes also mentioned shorter cycles of AAS, like in "building the perfect beast"
> 
> ie 250mg of Test E ED for 30 days, then slin and Growth for 30 days I believe.


In that book the cycles on AAS are quite short, but it would be misleading to take it out of context...

He advocates a continuous cycle of blasting drugs into system - AAS, slin, GH, clen, dnp, ECA, metaformin. The whole lot.


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## stone14 (Mar 24, 2005)

You don't want your body to adapt to the aas tho, if your body adapts to your anabolic environment then it will counter-balance it making the doses pritty much ineffective, the longer your on the longer the body has to adjust to it to counteract it.

Taking aas will shoot your anabolics sky high, the body will start to adapt to that level and increase catabolic hormones coming straight up behind it, once these hormones are level and balanced that's the aas effects greatly reduced.

Idealy you want the anabolic to catabolic hormomes as far apart as possible with the anabolics being far above your catabolics. The only ped I think that's effective at reducing catabolics is insulin, aas doesn't reduce catabolics but greatly increase the anabolics creating a bigger gap in favour of muscle building.


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## stone14 (Mar 24, 2005)

stone14 said:


> You don't want your body to adapt to the aas tho, if your body adapts to your anabolic environment then it will counter-balance it making the doses pritty much ineffective, the longer your on the longer the body has to adjust to it to counteract it.
> 
> Taking aas will shoot your anabolics sky high, the body will start to adapt to that level and increase catabolic hormones coming straight up behind it, once these hormones are level and balanced that's the aas effects greatly reduced.
> 
> Idealy you want the anabolic to catabolic hormomes as far apart as possible with the anabolics being far above your catabolics. The only ped I think that's effective at reducing catabolics is insulin, aas doesn't reduce catabolics but greatly increase the anabolics creating a bigger gap in favour of muscle building.


This is why staying on a constant dose all year round is ineffective and won't produce consistant gains. And why cycling is a far better method.

In order to keep gaining while on aas year round you will have to keep increasing the doses in an attempt to keep your anabolic level in favour of muscle building, you would end up on crazy doses for minimal gains with a catabolic level just as high, so to keep homrones as low as possible, cycling and cruising or cycle and pct is by far the best methods.


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## stone14 (Mar 24, 2005)

So imo a short high dose cycle will blast your anabolics in and out before then body has enough time to reach fully to it, running a low dose for a long period is a waste imo. But a shic will cost a lot more to run and repeat thru the year and long term may not be the best for your health as the years go on imo with the iratic hormone changes shooting up and down.

A standard 8-12 week cycle is sort of meeting in the middle.

Shics imo 4-6 weeks

Standard cycles 8-12 weeks

Long cycles 16+weeks

Imo long cycles need switched up either aas or doses ie I wouldn't run a 16+week cycle with same aas same doses taking into consideration the body starts to adjust to your aas 2-3weeks in


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## Zorrin (Sep 24, 2010)

Horses for courses.

I think if you're young, you recover from long cycles.

Bulkers can be long, but cutters are generally shorter, because diets are short, and cardio / ephedrine / clen / T3 / DNP leave you a bit burned out.

I'm a bit older than Ausbuilt, so I do shorter, girlier cycles which are easy to recover from. And i don't compete. I just want to look good all year.

A typical cycle for me is 40 days of injectibles with 42 days of oral steroid on top, begin PCT on day 43. 6-weekers, in other words.

Doesn't sound very hardcore, does it?

It is though, kinda. I do 6 weeks on, 7 weeks off, four times a year (every season). I end up doing 6 months of oral steroids with 6 months of test, but with 4 breaks for my liver, and four PCTs. 6 months flat out.

You know if you do 12 weeks of test E with 4 weeks of dbol as a kickstart? Week 4 is the best. Full test dose combining with an oral steroid.

I do 24 "week 4s" a year. Its almost impossible to mess yourself up too badly in 42 days.

there's the boredom factor. Same steroid for months yawn. I train maybe 36 out of a 42 day cycle. I'm always in shape, or not too far from it, and I'm not ready to go onto TRT yet. My balls still work - in fact I maximise them with HCG, tamoxifen, clomid, aromasin, then top it up with superhuman levels of lovely test prop.

The older you get, the better test is. I've always either just done it, doing it, or about to do it.


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## Kamwe kuacha (Jun 19, 2011)

Zorrin said:


> Horses for courses.
> 
> I think if you're young, you recover from long cycles.
> 
> ...


What sort of doses do you run in those 40 days?


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## Zorrin (Sep 24, 2010)

ShaunH101 said:


> What sort of doses do you run in those 40 days?


At the moment, 100mg of test prop (AP testorapid) mixed with 100mg of PC NPP, eod, and 100mg anavar each day. So thats 350mg of test prop, 350mg of nandrolone phenyl prop a week, and 700mg of anavar a week. Not high in the injectibles, but short esters are potent.

Think of it as an oral-only cycle, like the ones you used to enjoy. But with test and nandrolone! NPP is quite a cosy steroid which wraps you in cotton wool, makes a weak DHT and a weak estrogen, but is more anabolic than test

Its very nice, I'm enjoying it. Theres test, a 19-nor, and a DHT in there. Something's working! Right now, I'm using them to recover from a kettle of boiling water my soon-to-be-ex through over me. The "journal of burns and wounds" recommended anavar and nandrolone. That's handy, I thought. I'm already on them! You would not believe my rate of recovery. i will do a post, with pictures about it 10 days after she did a Carlos Tevez on my back and arm.

Never used nandrolone before, but tren shut me down teribly. I was off my oats. I'm going to do 100mg mast prop / 50mg Prochem test prop eod for 3 weeks at the end, to stay sexy while the nandrolone clears off totally, then I'll have a few weeks of fun doing interesting PCT science.

I'm never bored.

I do a cutter here, a bulker there. I've been training for 25 years, i don't need too many bulkers. If I did, it would be higher test and tbol, something like that


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## RowRow (Nov 17, 2011)

stone14 said:


> So imo a short high dose cycle will blast your anabolics in and out before then body has enough time to reach fully to it, running a low dose for a long period is a waste imo. But a shic will cost a lot more to run and repeat thru the year and long term may not be the best for your health as the years go on imo with the iratic hormone changes shooting up and down.
> 
> A standard 8-12 week cycle is sort of meeting in the middle.
> 
> ...


This is why when I blast (which for now are long, 18 weeks +) I have several phases where every 6 weeks or so a new drug is introduced. for example 2g test 1g tren is my base, in 2 weeks i'll be adding 600mg deca for 12 weeks and then 4 weeks later adding 750mg mast and 50mg anavar for the last 8 before i cruise again.


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## stone14 (Mar 24, 2005)

RowRow said:


> This is why when I blast (which for now are long, 18 weeks +) I have several phases where every 6 weeks or so a new drug is introduced. for example 2g test 1g tren is my base, in 2 weeks i'll be adding 600mg deca for 12 weeks and then 4 weeks later adding 750mg mast and 50mg anavar for the last 8 before i cruise again.


Yeh I agree that's the way to do it for long cycles, either ramping the doses up or adding extra aas in to it at stages like you have, both ways increase the anabolic environment your creating.

If ran the other way say 500mg test 20weeks, the body starts to adjust 2-3weeks in, for some guys gains slow and stop as soon as week6 or not far after, so why keep running it to 20weeks if the bodies caught you up? So u need to increase the doses are as you have have a base and then add extras ontop.

Only problem with ramping the doses up is the coming off needs planning imo as to simply stop aas will cause an anabolic crash, and then the tables have turned catabolics will be sky hight, anabolics will be falling to zero. I like the test/stasis taper on t-nation for coming off long high dose cycles if you wanting to come off and pct, otherwise cruising and staying on is a far better idea if your wanting to maintain your progress.


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## bayaga (Feb 24, 2012)

BB2 said:


> Growth, test, t3, masteron, m tren, all at high doses, I'd have to ask dutch if I'm allowed to give exact amounts and lengths, I'd like to gain 5 kilos keeping the same bf or less, that's the idea anyway........ It's all in the diet though!


Yowser that's alot! Obviously not your 1st cycle Keep us informed!



chilisi said:


> Hes also mentioned shorter cycles of AAS, like in "building the perfect beast"
> 
> ie 250mg of Test E ED for 30 days, then slin and Growth for 30 days I believe.
> 
> And all due respect to the big Aussie, but when has he used "lower" doses lately


I'm interested in this book. Done a search for it and I'm looking at one with a picture of a green hulk on the front cover. It seems to be from 2005. Is that the same one?



Zorrin said:


> At the moment, 100mg of test prop (AP testorapid) mixed with 100mg of PC NPP, eod, and 100mg anavar each day. So thats 350mg of test prop, 350mg of nandrolone phenyl prop a week, and 700mg of anavar a week. Not high in the injectibles, but short esters are potent.
> 
> Think of it as an oral-only cycle, like the ones you used to enjoy. But with test and nandrolone! NPP is quite a cosy steroid which wraps you in cotton wool, makes a weak DHT and a weak estrogen, but is more anabolic than test
> 
> ...


Yikes! That sounds serious Zorrin. Just curious, is it just the var which is giving you the wolverine healing factor or everything you're taking? I remember you mentioned using var to help you heal up in an earlier post.


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## Zorrin (Sep 24, 2010)

bayaga said:


> Yowser that's alot! Obviously not your 1st cycle Keep us informed!
> 
> I'm interested in this book. Done a search for it and I'm looking at one with a picture of a green hulk on the front cover. It seems to be from 2005. Is that the same one?
> 
> Yikes! That sounds serious Zorrin. Just curious, is it just the var which is giving you the wolverine healing factor or everything you're taking? I remember you mentioned using var to help you heal up in an earlier post.


I recon its the anavar and the ZMA. You need loads of zinc to heal a burn, and its the most common mineral deficiency. Also, when you use even a single 3 tablet dose of ZMA, you notice how nice your skin goes.

The paper said winstrol increases some RNA messenger for making collagen tenfold. It said it wasn't sure about nandrolone, but it probably helped. Anavar it loved. testosterone isn't particularly effective, it says you want a steroid and as much protein as possible. All sorts of things went wrong. My bandages kept getting crusty with yellow goo then sticking to my T-shirt when i tried to take it off, things like that. No wife to help me, I had to hold my T-shirt in my mouth and cut the bandage away behind my back the wrong way round in a mirror for fear of tearing off my newly formed skin.

Some spots were just holes like windows through to my muscle, no skin at all. yet the whole time I only took 2 neurofen before I got my dressing changed, just in case. You know how much a burn on your finger hurts? This one (about the size of a man's hand on my tricep, back and armpit) has hardly hurt. I mean that - I'm not just being brave. Now its finally getting a bit itchy. My bandage came off yesterday, and I submerged it in the bath for the first time, Softened scabs were floating like day-old cornflakes in milk.


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## biglbs (Jan 26, 2012)

chilisi said:


> Longer esters as well. Due to the higher amount, the active half lives will be more effective.
> 
> My blast now is 4 weeks, with long, short and esterless meds.


We used to use this method late 80's/90's with 2 week clen in middle then a week or two on hcg,then repeat,worked well.


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## The Oak 2009 (Sep 14, 2009)

stone14 said:


> Yeh I agree that's the way to do it for long cycles, either ramping the doses up or adding extra aas in to it at stages like you have, both ways increase the anabolic environment your creating.
> 
> If ran the other way say 500mg test 20weeks, the body starts to adjust 2-3weeks in, for some guys gains slow and stop as soon as week6 or not far after, so why keep running it to 20weeks if the bodies caught you up? So u need to increase the doses are as you have have a base and then add extras ontop.
> 
> Only problem with ramping the doses up is the coming off needs planning imo as to simply stop aas will cause an anabolic crash, and then the tables have turned catabolics will be sky hight, anabolics will be falling to zero. I like the test/stasis taper on t-nation for coming off long high dose cycles if you wanting to come off and pct, otherwise cruising and staying on is a far better idea if your wanting to maintain your progress.


Just wondering Stone. How important do you think 'staying on' and cruising is to maintaining gains made on cycle?

I have always thought at some point I will just start to blast and cruise. I am now at the end of my 5th cycle. At what point did you deciede you didnt want to cycle anymore? Do you think your physique has improved signifigantly since taking that decision?

Cheers


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## stone14 (Mar 24, 2005)

The Oak 2009 said:


> Just wondering Stone. How important do you think 'staying on' and cruising is to maintaining gains made on cycle?
> 
> I have always thought at some point I will just start to blast and cruise. I am now at the end of my 5th cycle. At what point did you deciede you didnt want to cycle anymore? Do you think your physique has improved signifigantly since taking that decision?
> 
> Cheers


Thru my aas use something always came up be it an injury or cash being ill etc etc setting me back, also my weight wouls always drop eventually once I cam off even with running pct, I believe if you need aas to gain it you need to keep it, just got sick of the yo-yo effect in gains, so decided the only way to maintain and progress is to stay on, this being my lifestlye I don't plan on coming off.

I was off all lastyear with a spine injury which needed surgery so I crusied all thru that year on trt dose test only lost 4lb in about 9month, with no training and a poor diet, imo as a natty I would have lost far more, a stone or more easy.


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## Pandy (Jul 14, 2012)

This is a great read guys.

I've just finished a long ester 12 week cycle and looking forward to trying a short ester one next.


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## biglbs (Jan 26, 2012)

chilisi said:


> I thought hcg was a new thibg for us kids
> 
> 's a really effective method if done correctly.
> 
> ...


I was using hcg from your Grans wee mate,i am that old!!!! :lol:

I was thinking of bashing this method after chrimble,deca/sus from next week till then,then a few weeks off first and see.


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## biglbs (Jan 26, 2012)

Another method i find works is chopping and changing content of a course around ,whilst thinking in terms of how long they are active ,this has done well too.

For instance startd/bol/ Deca/sus,2 weeks @ high dose,then stop

then prop/winny/3 weeks,standard dose ,stop dead and hcg 2 weeks,

wait and repeat after 4 weeks from last prop.jab.

It realy hits home week 3 onward,big time.


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## bayaga (Feb 24, 2012)

Zorrin said:


> My bandage came off yesterday, and I submerged it in the bath for the first time, Softened scabs were floating like day-old cornflakes in milk.


I'm glad I wasn't eating whilst reading that!


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