# ChunkySteve's Fat Loss Log



## ChunkySteve (Aug 2, 2014)

I've been reading here for a little while and seems to have a great member base, less bro-science and kids running round compared to other forums.

Just had had the realisation that I'm married, with a 2 year old, and have said to myself for years that I'll lose weight what I'm older and that circumstances just aren't right. Well I'm 27, and there will never be a perfect time!

My current stats are 5'11", 290lbs. I used to play rugby which was a great excuse for not worrying about my weight. I now want to sort this out - I'm an all or nothing kind of guy, so in the first instance I want to cut down to 210lbs.

I read the great timed carbs thread earlier - that seems to make a lot of sense. Where do people calculate their calories and macros from?

Im planning to do the following split for gym work:

Monday - Cardio (fasted am); Push (pm)

Tuesday - Cardio (fasted am)

Wednesday - Cardio (fasted am); Pull (pm)

Thursday - Cardio (fasted am); Legs (pm)

Friday - Cardio (fasted am)

Sat/Sun - Off

I know that for me the hardest thing will be getting diet in check as I've read so many contradictory ideas I now don't really know what to believe. The idea of paleo and no need to count calories vs a strict calorie counting approach.

How does my split look?

Would a timed carb split work for me? Has anyone ever used it to drop from 20st to 15st? How long did it take?

If I did my weight training at 8:30pm, I would have carbs with my PW meal, but would I have any during the afternoon before my workout?

Be grateful for any advice or words of wisdom.

Steve


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## finest1 (Jan 2, 2012)

hi Steve,

you need to give us an idea of your current fitness and describe your body ( i know you've supplied your stats)

the workout schedule looks good, but it depends on the actual content of that workout. also tell us what your actual goal is. "losing weight" is too generic for a specialised forum like this. you'll find you'll get better informative answers.

thanks


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## ChunkySteve (Aug 2, 2014)

Hi Finest,

Apologies for being unclear, fairly fit for the size, with some reasonable muscle mass hiding away. I had a pt do a 9 point calliper test a few weeks ago - 34%. With this in mind I'd like to aim for 210 before I try for a clean bulk. The weights consists of primarily compound movements - bench, overhead press, rows, deadlift, front and back squat etc.


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## saxondale (Nov 11, 2012)

Forget carb loading paleo and all the other stuff

good old fashioned calorie deficit and lift increasingly heavy weights mate

Nothing else required at this stage


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## andyhuggins (Nov 21, 2008)

saxondale said:


> Forget carb loading paleo and all the others stiff
> 
> good old fashioned calorie deficit and lift increasingly heavy weights mate
> 
> Nothing else required at this stage


Totally agree keep it simple to start with mate.


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## Getting-Lean (Jul 18, 2014)

Regarding carb timing, I'd personally have carbs in the last meal pre-workout and first meal post-workout. About 50-60 grams in both!

Keep to protein and fats with green veg the rest of the day, just my opinion though! There's more than one way to skin a cat as they say


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## SK50 (Apr 7, 2013)

What Saxondale said.

I know you're keen and wanting to get everything optimal, but it's the basics that'll get you the results. Eat say 1800kcal per day, stick to the routine and watch the love handles melt.

If you have 80lbs to cut I suggest doing it as quickly as possible to minimise chance of failure/relapse. Shoot for 2 - 3lb fat loss per week.


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## finest1 (Jan 2, 2012)

hi steve,

its so common to see people commit to change and go hammer and tongs at it! try to reel some of that enthusiasm, you're gonna need it when it gets tougher.

i see you've commited to doing fasted cardio in the mornings. this is great. i would advise start on Low intensity steady state (LISS), do not do HIIT fasted. LISS will get you burning fat, whilst building up your fitness level. after a while you may wish to switch to HIIT, but i'd advise later.

wrapping all this up:

20-30 LISS am

analyse your meals, and clean it up if need be. reduce your carbs slowly

your weight training sessions should not be labourous. you should do just enough to work the muscle groups and move on. for example, leg day should be heavy squats, and some hamstrings and calves. you'd burn your carbs through squatting! thats enough as you'd be doing LISS the next morning

get one of those A4 diaries from the £1 shop and write down your workouts. you'd need this when your months down the line

also follow advise given above

good luck!


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## andyhuggins (Nov 21, 2008)

finest1 said:


> hi steve,
> 
> its so common to see people commit to change and go hammer and tongs at it! try to reel some of that enthusiasm, you're gonna need it when it gets tougher.
> 
> ...


umm don't agree totally but looks like a good starting point.


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## ChunkySteve (Aug 2, 2014)

Thank you all for your responses. I appreciate the sentiments - not getting too caught up on optimal and instead start making some basic changes and pick off the low-hanging fruit - the first. 30-40lbs (pun intended).

Based on the IIFYM calculator - I've come up with the following meal plan - could I get some comments as to whether this looks in the right area.

Meal 1 - 4 eggs + 2 rashers of bacon + 30g mozzarella (after cardio)

Meal 2 - USN Pure Protein

Meal 3 - 100g chicken breast + salad

Meal 4 - USN Pure Protein

Meal 5 - USN Pure Protein (post workout)

Meal 6 - 150g chicken breast, plus 1 cup wholewheat pasta and stir-in sauce

This comes out at 1980 calories, 230 p; 78 c; 78 f. I also have a lower carb final meal for non-weight training days where I'll make a lean mince chilli.

How does this look? Do I need to think about carbing up one day per week? I'd like to avoid big weekly cheat day binges until I have a firm grip on things, and am being consistent.


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## finest1 (Jan 2, 2012)

steve,

78g carbs for the day?? that can't be right, if so, thats way too low for someone getting back into fitness. to get to those levels you need to work your way down in carbs. dont be scared to eat carbs, theres nothing wrong with carbs, just as long as you are training. in your first post you said you'd be training in the evening. you are going to need carbs to fuel those sessions. if you don't want a cheat day don't have one. you can carb up in the morning and slowly back off as the day progresses. on the training days you need to carb up before and after.

i would advise you start your training routine first, whlist you clean up your eating, then start reducing food intake. when you train you'd be burning calories anyway, so you will start making progress in the gym.

you are on the right track, but that food schedule looks more like someone who is trying to shed the last few digits of body fat. you're no where near that stage.

good luck


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## A B (Dec 16, 2012)

I weighed an obese 17.6 stone at 6ft 38 inch waist. Joined the gym, trained compound lifts and 45min cardio on the cross trainer. Also ran where I could around 20mins the days I didnt go to the gym.

I droped all crap processed food, quit drinking, fizzy pop ect and got to around 14.7 stone in 3 months. Then came the hard bit, I introduced HIIT, so 20 - 30mins 45 sec sprint, 45 sec rest on inlcine on tredmill after my weight sessions 3-4 a week and long slow steady cardio the off days. Say 45-60mij cross train. Always rested on sunday. I got down to 14 and then I followed a strict diet and used clen and eca 2 weeks on 2 weeks off and got to 13 stone, then cleaned bulked from there. Took just under 6 months all in. All the best you can do it.


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## A B (Dec 16, 2012)

ur diet has not enough whole foods you will be hungry

I follwed something similar to this, using carbs around weights.

6 egg omelette (4white, 2 whole) 2g fish oil, multi vit

150g chicken, large leafy salad some olive oil dressing

Same as meal 2

SMe as meal 2

Pre workout 30g whey 1 slice burgen bread, tablespoon peanut butter sliced banana

Post workout 30g whey

For tea it was 200g meat either steak, fish, chicken or turkey, steamed veg and sweet potato mash

Pre bed 30g whey in semi skimmed milk, casien probaly better but didnt bother buying different whey, just added milk to slow absorption during the night

The tip is to eat a big salad in the 3 chicken meals to keep you full. I found the bread, peanut butter and banana great for energy workout and I always looked forward tonhave sweet spud or another carb source post workout with my meat and veg


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Welcome  .



ChunkySteve said:


> I've been reading here for a little while and seems to have a great member base, less bro-science and kids running round compared to other forums.


As you sound like you may be interested in real evidence over bro-science, I'll give you a couple of things think about. First up, I would suggest you stop doing fasted cardio. It is more unpleasant, and the evidence suggests it is more catabolic (breaks down muslce) and doesn't burn any more fat than cardio in a fed state. See here:

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/the-myth-of-cardio-before-breakfast-debunked.html

The evidence also suggests that, when combined with weight training, HIIT is better than LISS cardio, see here:

http://www.biolayne.com/contest-prep/best-form-of-cardio-for-bodybuilding/

Don't feel you have to do cardio every day either. I'd be more tempted to do cardio at most three times per week, on days when you don't train.

Are you new to weight training? If so I'd suggest you switch from your push, pull, leg routine to a beginners whole body programme three times per week e.g. Stronglifts. As someone new to training you will benefit from training each muscle three times per week rather than the once per week with your current schedule.

Good luck in achieving your goals, whatever you choose to do  .


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## saxondale (Nov 11, 2012)

Ultrasonic said:


> Welcome  .
> 
> As you sound like you may be interested in real evidence over bro-science, I'll give you a couple of things think about. First up, I would suggest you stop doing fasted cardio. It is more unpleasant, and the evidence suggests it is more catabolic (breaks down muslce) and doesn't burn any more fat than cardio in a fed state. See here:
> 
> ...


Says 'dont listen to broscience' then posts broscience.

Way to go ultrasonic


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

saxondale said:


> Says 'dont listen to broscience' then posts broscience.
> 
> Way to go ultrasonic


What broscience would you say I have posted? The articles all have links to proper research papers. I could also provide others. I posted the links I did as they are more readable. Brad Schoenfeld and Layne Norton would both be highly insulted at being called bro-scientists FWIW! You may want to look into who they are...

Feel free to post links to scientific studies to refute what I have posted though, I would be genuinely interested  .


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## saxondale (Nov 11, 2012)

Ultrasonic said:


> What broscience would you say I have posted? The articles all have links to proper research papers. I could also provide others. I posted the links I did as they are more readable. Brad Schoenfeld and Layne Norton would both be highly insulted at being called bro-scientists FWIW! You may want to look into who they are...
> 
> Feel free to post links to scientific studies to refute what I have posted though, I would be genuinely interested  .


Soon ss you mentioned catabolism mate


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

saxondale said:


> Soon ss you mentioned catabolism mate


I would look for more links to real science showing catabolism, but you wouldn't bother to read them, any more than you have the references provided in the original links.

Have a pleasant evening  .


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

@ChunkySteve For info I just had a look at the references from my fasted cardio link. What the research actually seems to show is that cardio with low muscle glycogen levels is catabolic, which is not the same as saying cardio before breakfast is catabolic (in general it may well not be). Glycogen levels will depend on your previous carb intake and activity, and how long you perform cardio for. But for someone following a very low carb diet, glycogen levels will be low. Either way, the fact remains that the evidence suggests that fasted cardio doesn't burn more fat. Here is another, more recent, study if you care:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23723099

Fasted cardio works because it is cardio. Do it this way if it fits in with your schedule and general diet plan, but if down the line you feel you want to do cardio after food then the evidence suggests that you will be no worse off in terms of fat loss. If your food includes carbs then you would also be at reduced risk of catabolism.

I'll shut up now  .


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## saxondale (Nov 11, 2012)

Ultrasonic said:


> I would look for more links to real science showing catabolism, but you wouldn't bother to read them, any more than you have the references provided in the original links.
> 
> Have a pleasant evening  .


We've done this soooo many times in the past, the links are in my history if you want to look, US army rangers study into catabolism, its a theory not reality is the conclusion

Other studies are avaliable if you want to google


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

saxondale said:


> We've done this soooo many times in the past, the links are in my history if you want to look, US army rangers study into catabolism, its a theory not reality is the conclusion.


Actually no, we haven't. Please do give me the link. I will read it.


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## saxondale (Nov 11, 2012)

Its in my post history somewhere, heres a link to something but my tablet downloads rather than links

http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/intermittent-fasting/218840-if-vs-non-if-studies.htm

What the reports said was everytime the ran the tests over the years on two sets of recruits, same training, one set feed maintenance, one set starvation ration there was no difference in muscle gain or loss until such time as the recruits would be hospitalised.

Other than maybe 6 people who post on here and are planing to compete in the next month, catabolism isnt nor will be an issue


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

BTW, the fact that exercise with low glycogen is catabolic is the mainstream view amongst professional athletes. If you watch the following episode of Horizon from 27:35 you will see Dave Brailsford of the Team Sky cycle team talking about this during an interesting little test. The whole programme is worth a watch FWIW.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x1amh2t_bbc-horizon-sugar-v-fat-h264-1280x720-aac-rmac_lifestyle

I'd have posted this earlier but I couldn't find it quickly. Now I really will shut up, I need to get to bed!


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## ChunkySteve (Aug 2, 2014)

Saxon/Ultra - thank you both for your enthusiasm for ensuring I have all the information in front of me. Fasted cardio works for my schedule, and ensures I fit it in before life gets in the way.

AB - that's exactly the sort of motivational stories I want to hear!

If it sounds like I'm proposing to go too low carb - would people recommend I either a) add carbs and thereby increased calories; or B) increased carbs but decrease fats/protein?

Not wanting to get caught up in minutiae but do want to get the easy stuff right from the start.

Thanks,

Steve


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## saxondale (Nov 11, 2012)

By your own admission 'professional athletes' not the OP, me, you or 99.99% of the rest of the world. There is also a good Horizon episode debunks LISS training and diet.

Go to bed, you need the sleep


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## saxondale (Nov 11, 2012)

ChunkySteve said:


> Saxon/Ultra - thank you both for your enthusiasm for ensuring I have all the information in front of me. Fasted cardio works for my schedule, and ensures I fit it in before life gets in the way.
> 
> AB - that's exactly the sort of motivational stories I want to hear!
> 
> ...


Eat what works for you mate, if the diets too harsh you'll give up.

Were just shooting hoops mate, me and sonic


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

saxondale said:


> By your own admission 'professional athletes' not the OP, me, you or 99.99% of the rest of the world.


My point was to prove it is real science not bro-science :wink: .

Your link doesn't work I'm afraid but I tracked down what I think must be the study you were referring to here:

http://ftp.rta.nato.int/public//PubFulltext/RTO/MP/RTO-MP-042///MP-042-06.pdf

I'll have a read tomorrow.


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## A B (Dec 16, 2012)

Just keep carbs for pre and post workout you will be fine, you will notice the most changes in the first 6 weeks of diet and training, stick it out for 12 weeks and you wont want to go back to your old self. Good luck


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## saxondale (Nov 11, 2012)

Ultrasonic said:


> My point was to prove it is real science not bro-science :wink: .
> 
> Your link doesn't work I'm afraid but I tracked down what I think must be the study you were referring to here:
> 
> ...


That may not be the one but rather one of several, google throws them up. Its fine in theory not not relevant in real life mate.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

saxondale said:


> That may not be the one but rather one of several, google throws them up. Its fine in theory not not relevant in real life mate.


Just to let you know that I haven't forgotten about this, but I haven't had chance to properly look at your paper, and I may not for a couple of weeks as I'm off on holiday soon. What I'll do is start a new thread relating to this subject once I've had chance to look at this properly.

For now I keep fasted cardio being a good idea (for natural trainees at least) firmly in the bro-science category, but I'll keep an open mind when I come back to this.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Ultrasonic said:


> Are you new to weight training? If so I'd suggest you switch from your push, pull, leg routine to a beginners whole body programme three times per week e.g. Stronglifts. As someone new to training you will benefit from training each muscle three times per week rather than the once per week with your current schedule.


^

Did you read this part of my first post ChunkySteve? I think it rather got lost in the fasted cardio discussion, but it is potentially very significant. PPL is not an optimal beginner programme.


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## saxondale (Nov 11, 2012)

Ultrasonic said:


> Just to let you know that I haven't forgotten about this, but I haven't had chance to properly look at your paper, and I may not for a couple of weeks as I'm off on holiday soon. What I'll do is start a new thread relating to this subject once I've had chance to look at this properly.
> 
> For now I keep fasted cardio being a good idea (for natural trainees at least) firmly in the bro-science category, but I'll keep an open mind when I come back to this.


Your far too serious for me mate, lol


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

saxondale said:


> Your far too serious for me mate, lol


It's your fault for accusing me of posting bro-science  . I'm all about the evidence!


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## saxondale (Nov 11, 2012)

Here -knock yourself out

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=DxqdAgAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover&output=html_text

There are books on the subject, just google us army rangers study into catabolism


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