# dextrose/malto/hi gi carbs pwo when cutting?



## Deads (Feb 4, 2011)

Ok, so we all know pwo is the most important time to get nutrients and protein into the muscle and to replenish glycogen stores as quickly as possible when the aim is to grow and build new muscle tissue.

But when cutting the main goal is to lose b/f while maintaining the muscle mass you've already got. Unless you've trained fasted glycogen will not be depleted too much and there's no need to spike insulin as the main benifit is growth with the downfall been the blunting of fax oxidisation. A good diet pre wo and some whey pwo should keep us anabolic so what's the point in hi gi carbs pwo when cutting if the main goal is to lose fat while maintaining muscle?


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## BigRichG (Nov 26, 2010)

point of high gi carbs is to replenish lost (burnt up) glycogen you used in the workout regardless of cutting or bulking this is the one time high gi needs to remain for this very reason.


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## BigRichG (Nov 26, 2010)

you will still lose bodyweight if you are in a *caloric defecit *and still having pwo high gi carbs.


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## Deads (Feb 4, 2011)

Replenishing glycogen asap and the insulin spike is important while trying to increase muscle mass but its at a cost of blunting fax oxidisation which is of the upmost importance while cutting.

I'll lose weight in a cal deficit yeah but I want that weight to be from fat as much as humanly possible. If pwo I'm burning fat at the highest point of the day why stop it using hi gi pwo?

Or is it simply the case that getting to 9-10% bf is possible with hi gi pwo but going lower will mean removing it. If that is the case I'll leave it in


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## BigRichG (Nov 26, 2010)

ideally fasted cardio in the morning is perfect for burning stored lipids (bodyfat) however you are in a similar state straight after weight training. this is actually when i do my cardio straight after weight training and before protein shake for 30 minutes but im trying to bulk.

i would still say it is a necessity to have high gi carbs pwo though, you cant literally burn fat 24/7 you need to give your body a chance to repair itself and sufficient carbs in the right place in order to do so. Alot of people when restricting carbs normally do carbs in first meal pre and pwo and thats it.

find out what works for you

try having 50g dextrose for a little while then take it away and see the difference. imo opinion i would think the worst thing to do.


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## BigRichG (Nov 26, 2010)

remove carbs from other parts of the day. the effects of a good workout on metabolism will virtually double your calories being burnt the next day just by sitting round doing nothing.


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## Deads (Feb 4, 2011)

I usually just put 50g of carbs in my pwo when bulking so was looking at dropping it to 25g as that should be of some help. Although I am thinking of upping carbs pwo to 75g when bulking but I'm in two minds about that

I am currently removing carbs from other meals. My main carb meals are breakfast and pwo, next important is pre wo. Rest of my meals still have carbs in just very little.


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## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

I personally don't bother with them (high GI carbs) PWO when cutting, then again I don't use them whilst bulking or maintaining either. I'd rather "spend" my calories on more wholesome foods and stuff I actually enjoy eating than a shake.

To some extent (whilst cutting) you're never going to be fully glycogen replenished as you're consuming restricted cals and carbs, recovery is going to be impaired regardless. So like you say worrying about a it (glycogen replenishment) PWO shoud be of lesser concern as your main goal is maintenance of muscle mass along side fat burning.

If I were you, I'd do your workout, and if possible get home and just have your next scheduled diet meal (if possible within an hour or so). If not, just a whey shake would probably suffice, although it depends on what and how much your pre WO nutrition consisted of given a meal 1-2hrs pre WO will still be releasing nutrients at least 4-5hrs later, if not longer.


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## BigRichG (Nov 26, 2010)

if you drop the carbs down pwo you recovery time will suffer. Muscle glycogen holds 1600-2000 calories and Liver glycogen 300-600 calories


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## The Big Dog (Jul 13, 2009)

I avoid pwo carbs when cutting. Just bang in some hydro whey & bcaa

This makes interesting reading

February 19th. 2010 - You've probably heard that eating a high carbohydrate meal after training is better than a low carb meal. However, this may not be the case. Keeping post-exercise carbohydrate consumption low can prolong the nutrient uptake window created from training (via increased insulin sensitivity). (1) This is because training increases the muscle cells demand for nutrients, including amino acids, for repair and sugars to replace muscle glycogen.

The resulting increase in insulin sensitivity after exercise enhances the flow of nutrients to the muscle cells in need, as well as increases the use of fat as an energy source since sugars are not available. As glycogen stores fill up, however, the cells ability to take up amino acids (for growth) and fat (for fuel) will decrease.

The idea behind the high carb theory is that when you exercise, you use up muscle glycogen. The most efficient way to replenish your glycogen stores is through carbohydrate intake. If your training frequency has you exercising several times a day or every few hours, you'll need too replace your energy stores more quickly to prepare your body for the next workout, and eating more carbs post exercise will help. If, on the other hand, you train once per day or several times a week and are more concerned with body composition, a carbohydrate restricted eating approach may prove more effective.

References -

1. Amino Acids & Proteins for the Athlete

Mauro D. Pasquale

Taylor And Francis Group 2008 Pages 356-358


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## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

BigRichG said:


> if you drop the carbs down pwo you recovery time will suffer. Muscle glycogen holds 1600-2000 calories and Liver glycogen 300-600 calories


But when cutting you're on restricted cals and carbs anyway. Like I said recovery is going to be impaired regardless. The goal isn't to grow here, it's to maintain mass you have, in which case of far greater importance is daily protein intake and giving the body a stimulus to hold onto it's muscle (resistance training).

Deads, have a read of this thread, some very interesting stuff on this very topic: http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/food-diet-nutrition-info/131832-dextrose-pre-post-workout.html


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## BigRichG (Nov 26, 2010)

bayman said:


> But when cutting you're on restricted cals and carbs anyway. Like I said recovery is going to be impaired regardless. The goal isn't to grow here, it's to maintain mass you have, in which case of far greater importance is daily protein intake and giving the body a stimulus to hold onto it's muscle (resistance training).
> 
> Deads, have a read of this thread, some very interesting stuff on this very topic: http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/food-diet-nutrition-info/131832-dextrose-pre-post-workout.html


very true ive never done a cut before so im just sharing what ive learnt from reading.


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## helicopter (Jun 21, 2007)

interesting read.

what about if your on a keto diet?


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## Deads (Feb 4, 2011)

The Big Dog said:


> I avoid pwo carbs when cutting. Just bang in some hydro whey & bcaa
> 
> This makes interesting reading
> 
> ...


Not more pasquale stuff, lol. I did his anabolic diet without great success, since then I've been abit iffy regarding him.

Body composition is important to me while cutting, but to be honest it goes out the window abit while I bulk, mass and strength been of upmost importance to me.

Cheers for info though


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## Deads (Feb 4, 2011)

Once again cheers bayman for all your useful info. I'll have a read of that link later.

So you don't have a whey shake pwo while cutting either? I always have one then my ppwo meal 45 mins later.


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## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

Deads said:


> Once again cheers bayman for all your useful info. I'll have a read of that link later.
> 
> So you don't have a whey shake pwo while cutting either? I always have one then my ppwo meal 45 mins later.


Well in most cases I've eaten a whole meal pre WO, so that's still digesting and releasing nutrients. I may have a small serving of whey to sip on during workout, or BCAA. I then just get home and have my next scheduled meal. Not noticed any difference this way, or loss of muscle.


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## Deads (Feb 4, 2011)

bayman said:


> Well in most cases I've eaten a whole meal pre WO, so that's still digesting and releasing nutrients. I may have a small serving of whey to sip on during workout, or BCAA. I then just get home and have my next scheduled meal. Not noticed any difference this way, or loss of muscle.


I have a whole meal pre aswel. Wouldn't whey pwo still be ideal to keep you anabolic as its fast absorbing when you need it most?

Or do you only do this when cutting?


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## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

Deads said:


> I have a whole meal pre aswel. Wouldn't whey pwo still be ideal to keep you anabolic as its fast absorbing when you need it most?
> 
> Or do you only do this when cutting?


Contrary to popular belief, Whey isn't that fast absorbing tbh (not that I think speed of absobrtion means a whole lot in the context of a full day's eating).

Whey peaks amino levels about 60mins after ingestion, and is absorbed at around 10g per hour. So 30g of whey takes at least 3hrs to digest, faster than wholefoods for sure, but still not that fast eh? (or as fast as supplement companies like to make out).

If you've eaten pre-WO you'll still be "anabolic" from that meal for 4-5hrs, possibly longer depending on meal type, make up, and absolute amounts of food eaten. Something like whey or BCAA/EAA around workout might help up protein synthesis to a degree, but it's not like it's a switch to turning on net muscle growth.

One thing I've learnt by speaking to Dtlv on this subject is the fact that protein synthesis from training is highest for around 4hrs directly after tranining, so to my mind it's sensible to get in a good whack of your cals and foods in during this time (further reading on this in the thread I refered to), but the overall effect from training lasts a lot longer. So of far greater importance is hitting your calorie and macronutrient goals for the entire day, rather than specifically when you get food in, daily totals > nutrient timing every time.

In summary, if a whey shake PWO helps you hit your targets, go ahead and have one, but it's likely no better to just having a solid meal. Obviously a shake wins out on convenience though, so if you can't get any food in within an hour or so of working out, then it's a probably worth having one.


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## Deads (Feb 4, 2011)

bayman said:


> Contrary to popular belief, Whey isn't that fast absorbing tbh (not that I think speed of absobrtion means a whole lot in the context of a full day's eating).
> 
> Whey peaks amino levels about 60mins after ingestion, and is absorbed at around 10g per hour. So 30g of whey takes at least 3hrs to digest, faster than wholefoods for sure, but still not that fast eh? (or as fast as supplement companies like to make out).
> 
> ...


But if your digesting proteins from meat at around 3-6g per hour over 4hrs (I think u stated in my other thread?) And whey 10g per hour over 3hrs, if the bodys absorbing more for 4hrs pwo wouldn't this be ideal? Both whey and proteins from whole foods? Other wise you'll just be getting 3-6g per hour as opposed to the 10 per hour you get from the whey?

Still unsure about this pwo hi gi carb thing bayman. I think I'm gonna try 25g of dex pwo until I get down to low levels of bf then I'll remove them completely. They can't really do any harm can they but could reap a benefit. Or could they? Quite a perplexing subject this


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## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

Deads said:


> But if your digesting proteins from meat at around 3-6g per hour over 4hrs (I think u stated in my other thread?) And whey 10g per hour over 3hrs, if the bodys absorbing more for 4hrs pwo wouldn't this be ideal? Both whey and proteins from whole foods? Other wise you'll just be getting 3-6g per hour as opposed to the 10 per hour you get from the whey?
> 
> Still unsure about this pwo hi gi carb thing bayman. I think I'm gonna try 25g of dex pwo until I get down to low levels of bf then I'll remove them completely. They can't really do any harm can they but could reap a benefit. Or could they? Quite a perplexing subject this


You're overthinking it mate.

Whey may absorb faster, but it's the absolute amount of protein over the course of the entire day that's important, not when you're getting it in. I quoted the absorbtion rates to illustrate just how long intake of various proteins would be still releasing nutrients into the system, to stop you worrying about going catabolic etc.

As for the high GI thing, check back in that other thread I refered too. Unless you're an athlete, needing to perform multiple exercise bouts per day then speed of glycogen replenishment shouldn't be of great concern, you're diet will take care of this anyway. And there's no specific need to spike insulin as substrate uptake PWO isn't limited by the this either.


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## Deads (Feb 4, 2011)

bayman said:


> You're overthinking it mate.
> 
> Whey may absorb faster, but it's the absolute amount of protein over the course of the entire day that's important, not when you're getting it in. I quoted the absorbtion rates to illustrate just how long intake of various proteins would be still releasing nutrients into the system, to stop you worrying about going catabolic etc.
> 
> As for the high GI thing, check back in that other thread I refered too. Unless you're an athlete, needing to perform multiple exercise bouts per day then speed of glycogen replenishment shouldn't be of great concern, you're diet will take care of this anyway. And there's no specific need to spike insulin as substrate uptake PWO isn't limited by the this either.


Strange how everything you've been told over the years, turns out to be over rated. People think the anabolic window is when everything should be gotten in asap. Creat a spike and protein, carbs, creatine nutrients are all absorbed quicker. Or is this still the case when trying to grow and increase muscle mass? Or is it just the case of making things easier, quicker and more convenient?

Or are we taking when cutting, so just maintaining muscle mass and losing fat? A good diet, consisting of the correct amount of daly macro's and constant protein intake should suffice?


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## Deads (Feb 4, 2011)

What you reckon bayman?


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

bayman said:


> Contrary to popular belief, Whey isn't that fast absorbing tbh (not that I think speed of absobrtion means a whole lot in the context of a full day's eating).
> 
> Whey peaks amino levels about 60mins after ingestion, and is absorbed at around 10g per hour. So 30g of whey takes at least 3hrs to digest, faster than wholefoods for sure, but still not that fast eh? (or as fast as supplement companies like to make out).


depends which study you read 

The data I've got for whey absorption is 45-60 mins to begin to alter plasma amino acid levels, then 60% of the aminos hit the bloodstream over the next two hours in quite a big spike, then a drop off and the remaining 40% of aminos from the whey become slowly and steadily available over the following four-five hours. Obviously anything eaten with the whey will affect this, as will portion size.

So yeah, whey isn't fast absorbing in the sense that it all gets absorbed quickly, but it does provide a fairly large initial spike of amino acids which drops off to a much smaller trickle for several hours afterwards, and it's the spike that is considered important for the anabolic signalling effects it has, not simply just for the timely provision of amino acids for protein turnover.

Back to thread topic, is not a disaster if you take carbs after cardio when cutting, but there's no essential need and most would probably not. Fat burning from cardio happens in two phases, during the exercise itself, then the post exercise phase when oxygen utilisation is higher (EPOC) and metabolic rate is raised. This period of raised metabolism and increased calorie burn at rest lasts for up to 24 hours and will happen anyway however you time your carbs.

I would only add the carbs personally if both fat loss and improving CV exercise performance were equal priority and you were exercising very frequently. In this case the glycogen replenishment will help maintain high performance, but if your main goal is purely fat loss then I don't see a reason to prioritise taking them.


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## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

Deads said:


> Strange how everything you've been told over the years, turns out to be over rated. People think the anabolic window is when everything should be gotten in asap. Creat a spike and protein, carbs, creatine nutrients are all absorbed quicker. Or is this still the case when trying to grow and increase muscle mass? Or is it just the case of making things easier, quicker and more convenient?
> 
> Or are we taking when cutting, so just maintaining muscle mass and losing fat? A good diet, consisting of the correct amount of daly macro's and constant protein intake should suffice?


IMO it doesn't matter if you're trying to grow or cutting. You could drink as many PWO shakes as you want, and if the rest of your diet isn't on key you wouldn't grow or lose fat one bit.

I subscribe to getting in sufficient cals and nutrients PWO when growing, especially as research shows training ups protein synthesis acutely for 4hrs, but to my mind it's just as good to get real food down you. A wholefood meal will up insulin sufficiently without a specific need to spike things and will keep you anabolic too, plus there's all the extra nutrients in food verses shakes. The only use I see for shakes is that they are a convenient source of easy calories if you struggle to get them in. People were getting jacked long before we had PWO shakes.

As for when cutting, what's the point? I'd rather "spend" my calories so to speak on foods I can actually chew, and that are going to keep me feeling full on a diet, a PWO shake isn't going to accomplish either of these. PWO shakes on a diet is one of the most pointless things I've seen infiltrate the bb'ing community to be honest.



Deads said:


> A good diet, consisting of the correct amount of daly macro's and constant protein intake should suffice?


In one. Much more important to be consistent with your diet as a whole than worrying about PWO shakes.


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## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

Dtlv74 said:


> depends which study you read
> 
> The data I've got for whey absorption is 45-60 mins to begin to alter plasma amino acid levels, then 60% of the aminos hit the bloodstream over the next two hours in quite a big spike, then a drop off and the remaining 40% of aminos from the whey become slowly and steadily available over the following four-five hours. Obviously anything eaten with the whey will affect this, as will portion size.


Pretty much what I said no?

For reference it's the Yves Boire study I was referring to in relation to my quoted absorption times: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9405716

This graph especially:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC25140/figure/F2/

Peak plasma leucine concentration at around 60mins in the above.



> Given that 30 grams of whey protein was absorbed within 3-4 hours, I guess some people believed that meant 30 grams of protein can only be used in one sitting. Or that you had to eat every 3-4 hours to stay "anabolic." Unfortunately, people missed a few facts that made these findings irrelevant to real-world scenarios. First of all, *this study looked at the absorption rate of whey protein in the fasted state. *On it's own, and with no meals eaten beforehand, 30 grams of whey protein is absorbed within a mere 3-4 hours. With meals eaten earlier in the day, or if you'd consume a whey shake after a meal, absorption would be much slower


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## Deads (Feb 4, 2011)

Dtlv74 said:


> depends which study you read
> 
> The data I've got for whey absorption is 45-60 mins to begin to alter plasma amino acid levels, then 60% of the aminos hit the bloodstream over the next two hours in quite a big spike, then a drop off and the remaining 40% of aminos from the whey become slowly and steadily available over the following four-five hours. Obviously anything eaten with the whey will affect this, as will portion size.
> 
> ...


I don't have shakes after cardio pal, I'm talking resistance training when cutting


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## Deads (Feb 4, 2011)

Totally see ur point bayman.

Pwo hi gi carbs will help the people who struggle to eat when bulking then I guess?

So there's no truth in the 30min anabolic window when looking to bulk? Would you advise having some dex and whey and then having a solid meal even if u don't do it urself?


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## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

Deads said:


> So there's no truth in the 30min anabolic window when looking to bulk? Would you advise having some dex and whey and then having a solid meal even if u don't do it urself?


No truth at all, it's much longer than than the oft quoted 30-60minutes. Would I advise it? It depends. If you struggle to eat cals then yes, if not a large meal PWO will suffice too.


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## Deads (Feb 4, 2011)

bayman said:


> No truth at all, it's much longer than than the oft quoted 30-60minutes. Would I advise it? It depends. If you struggle to eat cals then yes, if not a large meal PWO will suffice too.


So the spike apparently caused by the hi gi in the pwo shake won't at all be more beneficial when bulking?

I sort of keep repeating the same question but there must be some sence in the hype of the hi gi pwo shake?


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## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

Deads said:


> So the spike apparently caused by the hi gi in the pwo shake won't at all be more beneficial when bulking?
> 
> I sort of keep repeating the same question but there must be some sence in the hype of the hi gi pwo shake?


Go to the time to actually read this, then come back and answer your own question: http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/food-diet-nutrition-info/131832-dextrose-pre-post-workout-2.html#post2210067


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## Deads (Feb 4, 2011)

bayman said:


> Go to the time to actually read this, then come back and answer your own question: http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/food-diet-nutrition-info/131832-dextrose-pre-post-workout-2.html#post2210067


No its not needed aslong as diet is in place and daily requirements are met 

but I'd still personally have to have a whey shake upon finishing as I came see a possible argument for that.

I still have a lot of malto and dextrose left so the question is can it do any harm and why not take it? I won't bother taking it during cutting but when I start bulking again I'll use it till its used up, and I'll only add it again if I need the extra cals.

Another question bayman if you don't mind? My last main meal of the day is protein veg and fats, then the majority of the time I wake, eat some oats and whey, followed by a little pasta, a banana and egg whites 30mins later. I then train 1hr 30mins later, will liver and muscle glycogen be increased enough to power me through my workout by then? Or will a hi gi carb help me in some way?

Today I'll be doing fasted cardio upon waking then following the above, eating then training 1hr 30mins later. Again will glycogen be increased enough to power me through me workout or am I shooting myself in the foot?


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## Deads (Feb 4, 2011)

Thoughts on that one pal?


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

I'd say you'd be fine without the workout carbs... when you utilise glycogen foe energy in an exercise, you don't just use glycogen from the muscles you are workign but also from your liver... but sets of stores can be pretty low and you will still perform fine so long as neither store runs out. if you've eaten any form of carbohydrate in reasonable quantity within the few hours previous training (as you do) then you will pretty much certainly have enough glycogen for an hour or so of weights without any detriment.


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## Deads (Feb 4, 2011)

Dtlv74 said:


> I'd say you'd be fine without the workout carbs... when you utilise glycogen foe energy in an exercise, you don't just use glycogen from the muscles you are workign but also from your liver... but sets of stores can be pretty low and you will still perform fine so long as neither store runs out. if you've eaten any form of carbohydrate in reasonable quantity within the few hours previous training (as you do) then you will pretty much certainly have enough glycogen for an hour or so of weights without any detriment.


You mean intra workout carbs arnt needed pal? And I should be fine just eating the way I am 2hrs prior to training?

Tbh I have noticed a few times 45mins in I start feeling drained, but hey I have been training hard for 45mins solid so muscles are gonna be tired right?


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

Deads said:


> You mean intra workout carbs arnt needed pal? And I should be fine just eating the way I am 2hrs prior to training?
> 
> Tbh I have noticed a few times 45mins in I start feeling drained, but hey I have been training hard for 45mins solid so muscles are gonna be tired right?


yeah you should be fine in theory, but i don't know your whole diet and energy expenditure etc so it is really a little silly of me to tell you that either you shouldn't (or should) take the carbs.... all I'll recommend is that you experiment, try without intra workout carbs for a week and see how you get on, and then compare to a week of using them again and stick with whatever worked best.

I've kind of learned what activity levels and overall calorie intake makes intra workout carbs most useful for me by just playing around and keeping a good training log... is probably the most sensible way to approach it IMO, rather than listen to me go on and on about theory :lol:


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## Deads (Feb 4, 2011)

Dtlv74 said:


> yeah you should be fine in theory, but i don't know your whole diet and energy expenditure etc so it is really a little silly of me to tell you that either you shouldn't (or should) take the carbs.... all I'll recommend is that you experiment, try without intra workout carbs for a week and see how you get on, and then compare to a week of using them again and stick with whatever worked best.
> 
> I've kind of learned what activity levels and overall calorie intake makes intra workout carbs most useful for me by just playing around and keeping a good training log... is probably the most sensible way to approach it IMO, rather than listen to me go on and on about theory :lol:


Would dex/malto be ideal to use intra workout then? How much would you recommend? Would there be a disadvantage to using it like a crash or anything?

Guess it would be wise to chuck some whey in there too. Tbh I've never looked at using an intra workout shake.

I eat well but my last meal of the day is fats/pro no carbs. So I go from about 6pm the night before till 10am next day without carbs then get loads in 1hr 30mins pre wo which obviously won't be fully digested by wo time.


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