# Insulin and turning fat



## Contest (Oct 4, 2011)

Hey all,

There's been a lot of talk about how if insulin is used incorrectly, it can make you fat. This I assume is put down to the extra calories and carbs but I have a few questions.

Currently my carb intake is somewhat low but I do not have a problem gaining lean muscle mass. The only carbs I'm getting currently on a daily basis is 100g of Oats x2 a day and 100g of cashew nuts.

I start my insulin cycle next week where my carb intake will consist of 160g of Vitargo, 160g of Oats.

As you can see, my current carb intake isn't vastly different from what it will be when using 'slin. Is there a chance I can still see gains in fats from using 'slin and if so, why is this the case?


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## Contest (Oct 4, 2011)

Bumpity bump


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## stone14 (Mar 24, 2005)

You gain fat from slin, no way around it no matter what your carb protocol is.

Slin is anabolic to fat cells and muscles cells, stores nutes in both 50/50 exactly the same, slin doesn't differ between the two.

Only way to control fat on slin is dnp. 400-500mg ed will have a great impact on it.


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## RascaL18 (Nov 13, 2008)

stone14 said:


> You gain fat from slin, no way around it no matter what your carb protocol is.
> 
> Slin is anabolic to fat cells and muscles cells, stores nutes in both 50/50 exactly the same, slin doesn't differ between the two.
> 
> Only way to control fat on slin is dnp. 400-500mg ed will have a great impact on it.


on that dose of dnp on slin could you possibly lean out??


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## stone14 (Mar 24, 2005)

Yes, I'm sure aus says he use's 400-500mg dnp ed to control the fat on his slin use.


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## Joshua (Aug 21, 2008)

stone14 said:


> ... stores nutes in both 50/50 exactly the same...


Why do you believe this to be true?

J


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## stone14 (Mar 24, 2005)

Joshua said:


> Why do you believe this to be true?
> 
> J


I thought it was a known fact? slin is a storage hormone it doesn't pick one over the other.

Increases gluc/nutes storage in muscle cells and fat in fat cells, you can't bulk on it and not get fat gains aswell.

I guess you could restrict your fat gain by nailing your carb use to the minimum you need to keep your blood glucose stable but you will still gain fat, the body best storage is in its fat cells and its insulins job to store. You muscles can only hold so much gluc before its spilt over so to speak, that extra will also get stored as fat and probably cause water retention since 1 gluc molecule holds 2 water molecules and this is why gluc storage in the muscles give such a big pump and long lasting muscle volume.

Imo


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## Contest (Oct 4, 2011)

@stone14 - Cheers for the useful information mate, but is this 100% fact. I did some research prior to posting this thread but couldn't find much at all. I'm running 500mg of DNP ED with my 'slin starting from Monday but I was just curious about this particular topic. How has your experience with 'slin been in terms of gains in lean muscle and fat?


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## Joshua (Aug 21, 2008)

stone14 said:


> I thought it was a known fact? slin is a storage hormone it doesn't pick one over the other.
> 
> Increases gluc/nutes storage in muscle cells and fat in fat cells, you can't bulk on it and not get fat gains aswell.
> 
> ...


Insulin itself maybe a general storage hormone, but the bit about 50/50 split is the bit I was disagreeing with.

Where glucose goes to depends on a number of factors eg glucose transporters, blood flow, etc. That is the basis of nutrient partitioning.

I certainly agree with nailing carb intake but this should be controlled before someone uses slin anyway. No point in using drugs if one doesn't have the basics under control first.

Wrt consuming enough to keep BG stable, what do you think would happen if there was a small shortfall in carb provision and one didn't overload the body with glucose?

J


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## Contest (Oct 4, 2011)

Hey Joshua,

If after a workout your muscles are completely depleted of glycogen, are you saying the insulin will shuttle the nutrients to the muscle cells first with the overflow then leading to fat cells? I too thought this idea of the 50/50 split sounded incorrect thought I'm struggling to find some real evidence about this so am not disregarding what stone14 has said.


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## Joshua (Aug 21, 2008)

Contest said:


> Hey Joshua,
> 
> If after a workout your muscles are completely depleted of glycogen, are you saying the insulin will shuttle the nutrients to the muscle cells first with the overflow then leading to fat cells? I too thought this idea of the 50/50 split sounded incorrect thought I'm struggling to find some real evidence about this so am not disregarding what stone14 has said.


We can't say that muscle will take all the nutrients first then when full, fat takes its share as the body doesn't work like that but it would certainly take a larger proportion.

When glycogen has been exhausted it gives one more leeway with excessive carb and less leeway if having high protein, low carb intake as there is less glycogen to make up the difference.

J


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## Contest (Oct 4, 2011)

Joshua said:


> We can't say that muscle will take all the nutrients first then when full, fat takes its share as the body doesn't work like that but it would certainly take a larger proportion.
> 
> When glycogen has been exhausted it gives one more leeway with excessive carb and less leeway if having high protein, low carb intake as there is less glycogen to make up the difference.
> 
> J


Cheers for the useful info mate. I imagine you've used insulin before so what protocol did you use and what were the gains like in respect to lean muscle and fat?

Also, have you ever ran 'slin with DNP?


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## Fatstuff (Mar 2, 2010)

only speculating but i would imagine the best way to limit fat gain would be fast acting PWO only without going too mad on the dosages and therefore carbs, may limit gains this way but it would depend where your priorites lie at the time.


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## Contest (Oct 4, 2011)

@Fatstuff - I agree with what your saying mate. It was what I was going to do initially but then opted for using DNP whilst on cycle. Fingers crossed I don't turn into a chubby, watery mess :lol:


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## Fatstuff (Mar 2, 2010)

Contest said:


> @Fatstuff - I agree with what your saying mate. It was what I was going to do initially but then opted for using DNP whilst on cycle. Fingers crossed I don't turn into a chubby, watery mess :lol:


watery is easy to deal with, fat is another ball game LOL. An obvious answer would be yes u will gain less fat while on dnp, but thats because dnp burns fat :lol:


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## Contest (Oct 4, 2011)

Fatstuff said:


> watery is easy to deal with, fat is another ball game LOL. An obvious answer would be yes u will gain less fat while on dnp, but thats because dnp burns fat :lol:


I wonder what the ratio of fat burning is when using DNP and 'slin together. I'm hoping it's 1:1 lol


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## Fatstuff (Mar 2, 2010)

Contest said:


> I wonder what the ratio of fat burning is when using DNP and 'slin together. I'm hoping it's 1:1 lol


LOL, like i said anyway im only speculating, hopefully some science guys can help a bit better than my guesswork


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## Contest (Oct 4, 2011)

Fatstuff said:


> LOL, like i said anyway im only speculating, hopefully some science guys can help a bit better than my guesswork


I'm actually waiting for the science guys to wake up and bombard this thread with useful information, articles and studies lol


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## Fatstuff (Mar 2, 2010)

@Joshua @Pscarb @ausbuilt

lol


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## m118 (Feb 4, 2011)

I'd be interested too where this '50;50' ratio came from. never heard that one before.


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

Don't know the science and don't care in my opinion DNP use is stupid.....


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## majormuscle (Oct 24, 2009)

Personally I think the fat gain on insulin is over exaggerated obviously some fat will be gained but the muscle gain well out ways the fat gain for me anyway maybe it's the way I use it I also don't fit into the "must be lean before you use insulin" rule that you often hear people say


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

Fat gain on insulin is controlled by diet and the persons metabolism in my opinion


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## Contest (Oct 4, 2011)

Pscarb said:


> Fat gain on insulin is controlled by diet and the persons metabolism in my opinion


Hi Pscarb,

Ignoring DNP usage, could you give me some info about the science of how nutrients are shuttled when using 'slin?

Specifically,

*1.* Is the theory of nutrients shuttling to fat and muscle cells 50/50 incorrect?

*2.* I'm naturally a very lean guy with my bf currently sub 10%. I also consider my metabolism to be very good. Like I mentioned in my first post, the only carbs I'll be getting in daily when using 'slin will be around when I actually use 'slin. The breakdown is 160g of Vitargo and 160g of Oats daily. Protein will be high and fats will be zero. In your opinion is this a good approach to keep fat gains minimal?

*3.* What's you insulin protocol?


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## 6083 (Jun 21, 2007)

ive been taking a break from AAS -- training 3 times a week I take a 10iu slot of slin and a 10iu shot of hgh post workout and I am in great shape and gaining muscle and not sticking fat on and eating like a horse.

im sure that would probably change if I did 3 x 10iu shots per workout day x 3 per week but then I would iron that out by taking AAS and T4s and my first 2 slin shots before I train would be with moderate carbs

I think if you just take slin post workout you are unlikely to put fat on as your muscles suck everything you throw at it -- I just drop a multi protein drink with fast simple and complex carbs plus bcaa, creatine and glutamine then follow it up 40 mins later with a big high carb high protein meal

ive been really surprised how well taking 10iu of slin and hgh postworkout and no other drugs has worked for me-- they are both great hormones when combined


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## RascaL18 (Nov 13, 2008)

Pscarb said:


> Fat gain on insulin is controlled by diet and the persons metabolism in my opinion


if some one was to rais metabolism with T3's, clen, and eca's whilst using slin PWO only, 30g carbs with their breakfast(brown bread), then carbs in the PWO shake (70dex/30oats) to 10iu humalog, 1 hour later another shake (40g dex/20g oats) followed by a chicken and pasta/ mince and rice meal, woul that suffice the carbs you need whilst keeping the fat at bay in your opinion?

ghrp6- 100mcg 3x day

cjc1295 wo dac 75mcg 3x day

hgh 2iu day


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## RascaL18 (Nov 13, 2008)

GTT said:


> ive been really surprised how well taking 10iu of slin and hgh postworkout and no other drugs has worked for me-- they are both great hormones when combined


what have you noticed and in what time frame?


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## 6083 (Jun 21, 2007)

RascaL18 said:


> what have you noticed and in what time frame?


I was taking AAS for about a year

expected a big crash

had a small drop in size and strength but after switching to slin and hgh I am back climbing again in size and strength -

my sex drive is fairly low as I would expect but the slin was initially keeping my muscles full for a day but as of a month into it I am staying full all the time now and look great, getting stronger too

cant wait to combine those along with aas and t4s


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## RascaL18 (Nov 13, 2008)

GTT said:


> I was taking AAS for about a year
> 
> expected a big crash
> 
> ...


do you use a BG meter?? also where abouts in west yorks you from?? i live in halifax but used to live in bradford!


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## 6083 (Jun 21, 2007)

RascaL18 said:


> do you use a BG meter?? also where abouts in west yorks you from?? i live in halifax but used to live in bradford!


no don't monitor my blood sugar level -- I purposely let myself go hypo a couple of times so I know what its like and can spot it coming on-- but like I said only taking it post workout I drop a **** load of carbs so never go hypo and feel my muscles after a workout just suck everything I throw at them


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## RascaL18 (Nov 13, 2008)

GTT said:


> no don't monitor my blood sugar level -- I purposely let myself go hypo a couple of times so I know what its like and can spot it coming on-- but like I said only taking it post workout I drop a **** load of carbs so never go hypo and feel my muscles after a workout just suck everything I throw at them


where in west yorkshire you from??


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

Joshua said:


> Insulin itself maybe a general storage hormone, but the bit about 50/50 split is the bit I was disagreeing with.
> 
> Where glucose goes to depends on a number of factors eg glucose transporters, blood flow, etc. That is the basis of nutrient partitioning.
> 
> ...


x2 post exercise muscles will absorb more nutrients than the fat cells; insulin sensitivity for both fat & muscle is highest in the morning (one reason lantus is taken in the morning) and is worst at night; caffeine blunts insulin sensitivity....

I've never seen any actual ratio- it comes down to time on 'slin in my books.... the longer you're on, the fatter you tend to get.... for a number of reasons.


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

Pscarb said:


> Don't know the science and don't care in my opinion DNP use is stupid.....


I think this is one of the few cases where DNP is warranted, and in this case I agree with Borresson and A.L Rea; however I think Rea got it wrong as to WHY DNP is good with 'slin.

Here's the thing, 'slin is a storage hormone- and basically when the muscle cell is fully glycogen loaded, and the liver is fully glycogen loaded, storage in fat cells takes place (also why I dont think there is a set ratio of how this happens as it depends if youre carb depleted to begin with, etc).

Now DNP works by making the mitochondria ineffecient, and we know that your muscles are "flat" and "depleted" on DNP; basically DNP stops, or least makes it exceptionally hard for the muscle cell to achieve full glycogen storage, as the glucose keeps being burned of as heat... consequently, the carbs you ingest to meet the needs of the 'slin, never, or at least rarely/very little overflow into fat storage...

I have some science behind the above if people want to see it...


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## Contest (Oct 4, 2011)

Cheers for your input Aus and fire away with the scienice. I'd love to read it.


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## greekgod (Sep 6, 2009)

Ausbuilt, what abt running T3/T4 whilst on slin? would it help ensure fat gain to a miniumn? no DNP found here....


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## marknorthumbria (Oct 1, 2009)

Im about to run 'slin in my upcoming cycle. Am I worried about fat gain?

No because I'm planning on 30 mins hard post workout cardio ED..stop being lazy and up cardio.I will add in t3 if I feel I need it


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## RascaL18 (Nov 13, 2008)

marknorthumbria said:


> Im about to run 'slin in my upcoming cycle. Am I worried about fat gain?
> 
> No because I'm planning on 30 mins hard post workout cardio ED..stop being lazy and up cardio.I will add in t3 if I feel I need it


But when you shoot slin post workout your body just simply won't burn fat whilst slin is high. If any thing I think it will be dangerous to do cardio after a slin jab! All the glucose you'd burn as a energy is already getting sapped to your muscles


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## marknorthumbria (Oct 1, 2009)

Weights > cardio > slin

Did you think I meant weights > slin > cardio !?


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## marknorthumbria (Oct 1, 2009)

Also some days I hit morning cardio aswell..


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## stone14 (Mar 24, 2005)

Its more just a mix of my opinion rather than proven fact realy, not saying I'm right, but I agree with the blood flow from a workout if more blood going into a muscle then more slin can store gluc there.

I doubt you could 100% gluc deplete your muscle from 1 workout.

Also since fat is the bodies main storage fat gain will increase the longer you use slin if bulking on it, no way around that other than dnp.

Gluc is constantly being used by are muscles 24/7 and continously getting topped up as we intake food, but fat is 'dead weight' so aslong as your in a calorie suplus tthe fat will keep coming while on slin.

I don't believe you can bulk on slin and not gain fat, too many factors involved.

I guess its more correct to say with the right training,diet and slin+carb use 'nailed' then more will go to the muscles, but some still goes to fat cells and you will see visual fat gain in the mirror from bulking on slin plus the muscles can only hole so much glu they don't have an unlimited storage capacity, so any extra will go the fat cells. So your muscles will absorb as much as they can but any extra will be for you fat cells.


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## stone14 (Mar 24, 2005)

Maybe I shouldn't have said 50/50 (handover face) lol

Slin defo doesn't know the difrence between muscle cells and fat cells, i guess if will go were we cause a need for it 1st before anywere else. I agree with blood flow having an impact on were gluc goes.


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## Contest (Oct 4, 2011)

Cheers for all the feedback lads, it's much appreciated.

I start my first 'slin cycle today so wish me luck :thumb:

I've already taken 250mg of DNP this morning and will be using 10IU of 'slin PWO today with another cap of DNP. If I survive the week,

I shall be using another 6IU in the mornings. Will be doing this 6 days per week as I workout 6 days and only for a month.


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## Bull Terrier (May 14, 2012)

ausbuilt said:


> I think this is one of the few cases where DNP is warranted, and in this case I agree with Borresson and A.L Rea; however I think Rea got it wrong as to WHY DNP is good with 'slin.
> 
> Here's the thing, 'slin is a storage hormone- and basically when the muscle cell is fully glycogen loaded, and the liver is fully glycogen loaded, storage in fat cells takes place (also why I dont think there is a set ratio of how this happens as it depends if youre carb depleted to begin with, etc).
> 
> ...


One doubt though - if DNP impairs ATP and glycogen storage, won't it stop the insulin from working since presumably it won't be able to shuttle much of anything into muscle cells?

Just a thought...


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## Contest (Oct 4, 2011)

Bull Terrier said:


> One doubt though - if DNP impairs ATP and glycogen storage, won't it stop the insulin from working since presumably it won't be able to shuttle much of anything into muscle cells?
> 
> Just a thought...


Here's a few interesting points I have read from "Building the perfect beast".



> DNP is an oxidative phosphorylation uncoupler. It makes the process only about 40% efficient by uncoupling a high-energy phosphate molecule from ATP and therefore turning ATP into ADP. To maintain an adequate supply of ATP, the body must step-up production. For this reason metabolism is significantly increased and an incredible amount of calories are burned. During this accelerated metabolic state, and due to the need for ATP production, most of the calories come from fatty acids (adipose/fat tissue). So little or no muscle is lost (With adequate protein intake).





> 2,4-Dinitrophenoi (DNP) uncouples the mitochondria! oxidative chain from ATP
> 
> production, preventing oxidative metabolism, The consequent increase in energy demand is, however, contested by cells increasing glucose uptake to produce ATP via glycolysis. In skeletal muscle cells, DNP rapidly doubles glucose transport, reminiscent of the effect of insulin. However, glucose transport stimulation by DNP does not require insulin receptor substrate-1 phosphorylation and is wortmanniti insensitive.


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## RascaL18 (Nov 13, 2008)

Contest said:


> Here's a few interesting points I have read from "Building the perfect beast".


Got a feeling that there is some good info there, but what does it mean for us english speaking members?


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## Contest (Oct 4, 2011)

I admit I don't understand the whole science behind what is written in these articles but the key thing I took from the first block quote which I understand is...

"During this accelerated metabolic state, and due to the need for ATP production, most of the calories come from fatty acids (adipose/fat tissue). So little or no muscle is lost (With adequate protein intake)."

And from the second block quote...

"DNP rapidly doubles glucose transport, reminiscent of the effect of insulin."


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## Contest (Oct 4, 2011)

So I started DNP yesterday and didn't expect it to do anything on the first day but my god I am sweating absolute buckets. I normally sweat quite a bit as it is and tend to never feel cold. Even at this time of the year I wear vests and t-shirts as jumpers and tops make me feel constricted and hot.

Last night after gym I literally did not stop sweating. Had an ice cold shower but it did nothing lol. I'm now in my office wearing a vest and the sweat is trickling off my face and everyone's looking at me thinking wtf lol.

This is only my 2nd day and at this rate I can't help thinking I'm going to melt :lol:

Is there anything I can do to prevent the sweating?

By the way, I'm mainly sweating from the temple region of my head for some reason. The sweat is directly trickling down into my eyes which stings like a b*tch lol.


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

Contest said:


> Hi Pscarb,
> 
> Ignoring DNP usage, could you give me some info about the science of how nutrients are shuttled when using 'slin?
> 
> ...


i really have no clue but i cannot believe how anyone without a substantial study on humans that train could prove this figure? far to many variables involved.



Contest said:


> *2.* I'm naturally a very lean guy with my bf currently sub 10%. I also consider my metabolism to be very good. Like I mentioned in my first post, the only carbs I'll be getting in daily when using 'slin will be around when I actually use 'slin. The breakdown is 160g of Vitargo and 160g of Oats daily. Protein will be high and fats will be zero. In your opinion is this a good approach to keep fat gains minimal?


if you are sub 10% with a very good metabolism why are you limiting carbs to just around slin unless you are intending to use it with most meals?? (sorry if i have missed this)



Contest said:


> *3.* What's you insulin protocol?


i don't have one, i am going to be using it in the New year to add to the "Methods i have used sticky" both Pre and Post workout (separate trials)



RascaL18 said:


> if some one was to rais metabolism with T3's, clen, and eca's whilst using slin PWO only, 30g carbs with their breakfast(brown bread), then carbs in the PWO shake (70dex/30oats) to 10iu humalog, 1 hour later another shake (40g dex/20g oats) followed by a chicken and pasta/ mince and rice meal, woul that suffice the carbs you need whilst keeping the fat at bay in your opinion?
> 
> ghrp6- 100mcg 3x day
> 
> ...


it is hard to say carbs will only be stored as fat if they are above what is needed, many use the number 10iu per iu injected through trial and error i got this down to 4g per iu but that was for me, this is what i needed to grow and not get fat.....

guys there are a lot of question in this thread asking what others think is needed for yourself truth be known no one and i mean no can give you this answer and if you have to ask you are not ready for insulin......if you take 100g of carbs after a workout for example then start with 4iu of Slin if this is fine raise this to 6iu and continue to increased to either a number you are happy with or you feel the sides of Slin (dizzyness etc) insulin is not a "suck it and see" drug


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## Guest (Dec 4, 2012)

Insulin reacts with blood glucose and transports it to wherever it's needed. If your muscles are depleted of energy, then that's where it's going to end up going 1st. Any excess is then stored as fat.

I don't think DNP + Slin is going to be the answer to stopping fat build up, I think you forgetting that the body needs fat storage to survive. If it feels you are burning too many fat stores, it trys to rebuild them, then you are taking away the focus of the excess slin from going to the muscles in going to the stomach. In my opinion (THis is purely my opinion on insulin use and my experiences being diabetic, NOT actual scienctific facts) to get the most from slin, you should use it pre and post workout only. Use it to fuel the muscles once they are exhausted and in need of refuelling. That way the excess insulin won't try and store glucose as fat.

When I first started using insulin, it took me a while to get regular doses sorted out, during this time I put on 3 stone in fat. I wasn't even eating more than normal, I just wasn't eating clean, nor was I exercising properly as I had just been diagnosed with diabetes. It's taken me a hell of a long time to change that, as insulin is a growth hormone, and the more you use, the more fat you put on. That's fact. I'd start with very small slin doses , and gradually increase until you feel there is a change in fat %age. Then drop back a few iu's and use that.


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## Contest (Oct 4, 2011)

Pscarb said:


> if you are sub 10% with a very good metabolism why are you limiting carbs to just around slin unless you are intending to use it with most meals?? (sorry if i have missed this)


Hi Pscarb,

I am limiting my carbs to just around 'slin timing to keep fat gains to a minimum. Am I going about this the wrong way in your opinion?

My current protocol is as follows...

*Morning* - 6iu insulin (60g Vitargo, 60g Whey) - 1 hour later 100g of Oats

*Post-workou*t - 10iu insulin (100g Vitargo, 60g Whey) - 1 hour later 50g of Oats

Today was my first day on 'slin and touch-wood, everything went well. I'll be taper my morning and post-workout carbs slowly to assess my tolerance and see how much carbs my body actually requires.

My meals throughout the day are all high protein. For example, 400g of tuna, 400g of chicken, 250g of quark, 170g of greek yogurt, protein shakes, salads and vegetables. No fat is being consumed this month due to using 'slin.

I workout 6 days a week so will be using 'slin on all 6 days.

Feel free to criticize mate...


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