# got my testosterone levels tested after 2 year cycle



## David Lloyd (Mar 22, 2006)

i was cruising and blasting for 2 years but needed to come off

i did 3 week hcg (500iu ED) with test at 125mg PW

then 2 weeks after last jab i did 6 weeks PCT (tamorifen and clomid)

1 week after pct i got my testosterone checked and it is at 2.3

apparently it should be over 9

should i get back on the clomid etc?

what level is usual after PCT? i am guessing it should be higher?


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## sitries (Feb 28, 2009)

id run another pct if test levels are low - try out hackskis pct. Get some more HCG in there mate - 8 shots of 2500ius eod with clomid and nolva for a 45day recovery. thats the plan anyway.


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## Mikazagreat (Apr 10, 2009)

I think 1 week after a PCT is not enough time to know if u back to normal, did u check your F.S.H/L.H?

I don't think u should use HCG again, maybe Clomid/Nolva for another 2 weeks.

but from personal experience.

I will suggest u use a test booster (Axis HT from BSN) this worked wonder for me took 2 bottles after PCT and when i checked my test level it was on the high end that was like 4 weeks after PCT.


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## Mars (Aug 25, 2007)

You don't need another PCT, you do not need 8 shots of 2500iu hCG EOD, it will take time for your test levels to rise again and they will do that naturally without screwing with your hormones even more.

At the risk of repeating myself :lol: , 2wks after last jab is NOT enough time for the androgens to clear your system after a long cycle.


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## Sprinter (Mar 2, 2008)

Mars how long after last jab of a 12 week course of say test e would you advise to start pct?


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## freddee (Mar 2, 2009)

The normal protocol is ten days after last jab.


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## BigDom86 (Jul 27, 2008)

i was told 3 to 4 weeks after last jab if test e or c


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## BillC (Jun 11, 2009)

MArs has said it before it's different when your on for a long time, takes a lot longer than peopple realise for the gear to clear your system, it's an accumilitive effect. I'm sure I've seen posts where he says to leave it up to 6 weeks before pct if you've been on for that length of time.


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## David Lloyd (Mar 22, 2006)

it was enanthate

thats always 2 weeks after last jab isnt it

thats been the general consensus for years?

unless things have changed?


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## David Lloyd (Mar 22, 2006)

BillC said:


> MArs has said it before it's different when your on for a long time, takes a lot longer than peopple realise for the gear to clear your system, it's an accumilitive effect. I'm sure I've seen posts where he says to leave it up to 6 weeks before pct if you've been on for that length of time.


ah really?

damn it

maybe i should get back on the clomid


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## Kezz (Sep 3, 2007)

after 2 years i would have thought it would takke many months to get back to normal


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## Mars (Aug 25, 2007)

David Lloyd said:


> it was enanthate
> 
> thats always 2 weeks after last jab isnt it
> 
> ...


Yes things have changed.

Just like many things in the steroid world over the years.

But it's fine if you want to start PCT 2 wks after last jab of test enan, guess it makes no diff it was 10wks at 250mg or 16wks at 1000mg :lol: , just punch it into roid calculator  .


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## Old but not out (Sep 8, 2009)

mars1960 said:


> Yes things have changed.
> 
> Just like many things in the steroid world over the years.
> 
> But it's fine if you want to start PCT 2 wks after last jab of test enan, guess it makes no diff it was 10wks at 250mg or 16wks at 1000mg :lol: , just punch it into roid calculator  .


I recently finished an 8-week test E course at only 500mg a week and in the third week after my last 250mg jab I have absolutely no doubt I still had t in my system. Test E - 3 weeks before PCT


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## Mars (Aug 25, 2007)

Old but not out said:


> I recently finished an 8-week test E course at only 500mg a week and in the third week after my last 250mg jab I have absolutely no doubt I still had t in my system. Test E - 3 weeks before PCT


Exactly.

Thats the minimum time i recommend before starting PCT, i don't care if i get a bit of stick off some ppl, it's kinda going against the grain of what most have read or been told but i'll keep recommending PCT start times that may seem a little unorthadox at times.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Looking just at the numbers, you did not get testicular function back.

@ 10,000iu HCG that probably brought you half way to testicular function.

Doing nothing may take 4 months or more to come back.

You do in fact need to run another PCT along with HCG.

I would at the very least run 10,000iu HCG, and something around 1500 to 1000iu.

Beings that you have some testicular function you wont need the super aggressive doses.

You may consider the first two shots EOD ! 1500, then 1000.

Something like this:

1500 X 2 EOD, then 1000 X 7 EOD, that will use all the 10,000iu HCG

Then back on the clomid for 30 days @ 100mg, then 20mg nolva for 45 days.

You could run some HMG in that mix if you really want some extra boost.

I would also supplement Vitamin E and D daily while on the PCT, the D will help with the HCG as defneicies tend to hinder its work, and the E will help the leydig cells.

Long courses of gear tend to be more problematic for recovery.

But you defo need the HCG in there, your nuts are not firing.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

On the other start times for PCT, it depends on the ester used, and the amount you shoot.

100mg of propionate, 3 days.

100mg enanthate about 5 days

100mg cypionate about 6 days

orals, one day.

More gear, more time to clear.

Someone shooting sust @ 500mg for a cycle may want to start PCT between 3 to 4 weeks to allow that long ester to clear in the sust.

I have a friend that did 300mg of test cypionate and after 3 weeks he still had alot of that floating around in his system.

The idea here is simple, you dont want the negative feedback of high androgens to get in the way of trying to recover, only when it drops to base levels or lower that the hypothalamus till fire LHRH to the pituitary and that is if estrogen is not elivated.

Clomid and nolva will not work if androgens are high even in the presence of low esrogen, it wont happen.

Once your nuts are functional, you will recover easy.

One way to do this is to take blood when on HCG, if you fall within base range, you get off the HCG and continue with the SERMS, this way the pituitary will fire and hand off LH back to the testicles.


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## danimal (Aug 14, 2012)

i was on for the best part of 18 months! been off for 7 months nearly and i still dont feel 100% my test levels were 9 after 4 months off low considering im only 25


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## tom jones (Jul 7, 2008)

So with Proviron being an androgen, taking that would hinder recovery?



hackskii said:


> On the other start times for PCT, it depends on the ester used, and the amount you shoot.
> 
> 100mg of propionate, 3 days.
> 
> ...


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

tom jones said:


> So with Proviron being an androgen, taking that would hinder recovery?


Not necessarily but I wouldnt personally.

Not unless you felt like total hell and it made you feel a bit better, but the HCG will do that anyway.

Running around with low testosterone levels isnt healthy for many reasons, not to mention mental health.

Crashing is just terrible.

I would also suggest that the original poster run some DHEA low dose too to help support his adrenal glands, he can also run some pregnanolone to help him with his mood.

Running some GH along with the PCT isnt a bad idea to help with recovery either.


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## tom jones (Jul 7, 2008)

hackskii said:


> Not necessarily but I wouldnt personally.
> 
> Not unless you felt like total hell and it made you feel a bit better, but the HCG will do that anyway.
> 
> ...


OK thanks, Im shortly going to do PCT and was going to add some Prov...but then Ive been reading about the negative effects it has on the prostate, so I think I'll give it a miss...


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## Old but not out (Sep 8, 2009)

David Lloyd said:


> i was cruising and blasting for 2 years but needed to come off
> 
> i did 3 week hcg (500iu ED) with test at 125mg PW
> 
> ...


Mate,

What were your LH levels - if you can find that out you will have an idea wether the limiting factor for your recovery is at the testes or pituitary?


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## stone14 (Mar 24, 2005)

it took me 6month to feel recovered from a 4 month cycle. 1 weeks means nothing imo can take up to a year for some to recover.

coming of 2 year i would have run a test taper 100mg for 6-8 weeks and higher dose hcg (i would use hcg throughout) if testes supressed. also an AI, prov, and clomid running into pct of clomid, prov, dhea, clen and peptides for maintaining gains. jus me like lol, i think this looks ok.

defo keep with the hcg and clomid for now


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## David Lloyd (Mar 22, 2006)

hackskii said:


> Looking just at the numbers, you did not get testicular function back.
> 
> @ 10,000iu HCG that probably brought you half way to testicular function.
> 
> ...


cheers Hacksii

ok i will get 10,000 iu hcg like you said, gonna take about a week to get though :-(

have you heard of Tamoreifen? it is meant to be the best compound for recovering your test levels

i have this and nolva which i have started again today- i dont have any clomid but can get some??

would you run the clomid with the HCG?

BTW i dont know my FS levels etc - i will ask the endocrinologist when i see him but that might not be for a week or two -


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## David Lloyd (Mar 22, 2006)

also my kidneys are not fully functional

i have a GFR of 50 (should be over 60 at least apparently)

would any of these pct meds affect my kidneys?


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## BigDom86 (Jul 27, 2008)

david do you mean toremifene? i have some of this from researchstop which im going to give a go


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## David Lloyd (Mar 22, 2006)

BigDom86 said:


> david do you mean toremifene? i have some of this from researchstop which im going to give a go


yep thats the one

i know my testosterone is only at 2.3 but my sex drive seems to be ok weirdly

i mean its not brilliant but at least i can perform

i thought i wouldnt even be able to get it up for months

i am thinking the tore may have helped


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

David Lloyd said:


> cheers Hacksii
> 
> ok i will get 10,000 iu hcg like you said, gonna take about a week to get though :-(
> 
> ...


If anyone is suggesting tore is better than clomid or is the best, I can honestly say they dont know what the fcuk they are talking about.

No doubt someone that does blast and cruises and never comes off.

Or another arm chair guru which is mistaken.

Get the clomid, it is hands down the best SERM for HPTA, nolva with it is awesome.

*Next time someone refers you this information tell them that endo doctors use clomid as a test to determine secondary aquired hypogonadism, not tore, nolva or any other drugs.*

These people are not doing you any favors trying to help you.



David Lloyd said:


> also my kidneys are not fully functional
> 
> i have a GFR of 50 (should be over 60 at least apparently)
> 
> would any of these pct meds affect my kidneys?


I honestly dont know, I do know having low T levels are not healthy either, as for kidneys, I really cant say, keeping your blood pressure down would be a big help here especially if it is elivated.

I dont know why but you are the third person on gear that has had kidney problems 4th counting me.

Strange.

What was the cause of your kidney damage?



David Lloyd said:


> yep thats the one
> 
> i know my testosterone is only at 2.3 but my sex drive seems to be ok weirdly
> 
> ...


I know guys on proviron that have not to much problems with sex even with depressed testosterone levels.

Are you on proviron right now?


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## David Lloyd (Mar 22, 2006)

no not taking proviron at all

my kidneys were fine on cycle - i got tested regularly

the only issues i had were with my blood pressure

i was on blood pressure meds which affected my kidneys

also when i came off the gear - i also stopped training due to injury and started drinking very heavily (every day/night for about 2 months)

i lost 14 kg in 2 and a half months

thats a lot of muscle waste (creatinine) going through my kidneys which they didnt like at all

the booze didnt help either

Hacksii - wouldnt this high dose hcg cause desensitzeation?

i have never heard of anyone using doses that high

i was using clomid with the tore but ran out of clomid after 4 weeks so swapped it for nolva / tore

i am sh!t scared i am never goin to be able to have kids


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## BigDom86 (Jul 27, 2008)

hacskii will sort you out mate 

btw what caused your blood pressure problems? what problems were you having?


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

David Lloyd said:


> no not taking proviron at all
> 
> my kidneys were fine on cycle - i got tested regularly
> 
> ...


Desentization wont be an issue if you are running nolva in that mix, it protects the nuts from that.

I would run them all together and start everything day 1, once you get your goodies.

I hammered my kidneys too with very high blood pressure.

That is alot of muscle loss, and no doubt even more during loss of androgens.


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## David Lloyd (Mar 22, 2006)

well my blood pressure was always high even when i was a teenager

so being on cycle for 2 years obviously it went sky high

Hacksii isnt pregnenolone a DHEA precerssor? would i really need that AND DHEA

what sort of dose would you recommend?


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

DHEA is a precurser to all sex hormones, so it can be used where ever it is needed.

Pregnanolone is basicly a feel good hormone, HCG converts to some and I think this may be a factor in the less crashing of HCG use.

Something very small like 25mg a day max, it can be used in higher amounts but tends to elivate estrogen in men and testosterone in women.

Transdermal preperations probably would work better.

Snip from Swale:

*We use DHEA on cycle, during HRT or during PCT becuase, *

"This is to help "back fill" the hormonal pathways disrupted by the secondary hypogonadism induced when we supplement testosterone." - Dr. Crisler (Swale)

More snips:

DHEA is also bioidentical (is natural). So, it will not reduce the bodies own DHEA levels. (Edit: I'm no longer so sure on this one. Thats why it should be used ONLY when endogenous DHEA levels are low)

Supplemeting DHEA "off cycle" will not raise endogenous testosetrone in males.

DHEA is produced in the adrenal cortex of the brain and testes

Most abundant steroid hormone

The body converts cholesterol - pregnenolone - DHEA - androstenedione - testosetrone

Low levels of DHEA have been linked to: Obesity (type II diabetes), immunne dysfunction, autoimmune disease, cancer, hypertension, cardiovascular disease, depression, loss of labido, erectile dysfunction and osteoporosis.

Too much info, sorry for making you read that..........

Here some more reading for you on pregnenolone: http://www.raysahelian.com/pregnenolone.html


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## David Lloyd (Mar 22, 2006)

thanks again hacksii

u mentioned 25mg for a daily dose

is this for DHEA or Preg?

i am going to order them now


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

DHEA is 25mg ED.

Preg is a hit and miss.

Transdermal over oral, but check our the link on that for dosing.


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## David Lloyd (Mar 22, 2006)

hmm according to that site it says take no more than 10mg per day of preg

these are tablets that u put under the tongue and it by pases the liver

however the capsules i have just ordered from ebay are 100mg each

i'm wondering if it is a higher dose because it is an oral capsule and so i presume a lot of it will be destroyed by the liver?


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## kevinmorris (Sep 22, 2008)

Ive been reading reports recently where Letrozole in small amounts have been proven to elevate testosterone where guys had very low levels. I may have missed it, but why hasn't it been mentioned here?


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

I take preg myself and so does the chick and she likes it.

Outside of recovery it is testicles first, pituitary second and mental health third.

All things fall into place.....

Sorry, putting the cart before the horse is futal.

Order is key.


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## stone14 (Mar 24, 2005)

hackskii said:


> More snips:
> 
> DHEA is also bioidentical (is natural). *So, it will not reduce the bodies own DHEA levels*. (Edit: I'm no longer so sure on this one. Thats why it should be used ONLY when endogenous DHEA levels are low)
> 
> Supplemeting DHEA "off cycle" will not raise endogenous testosetrone in males.


i used cissus drol for 4 weeks ( have used it before with no problems, this time round i used 100mg dhea ed with it, when i ran out of dhea i couldnt *get it up* properly for about 3 weeks...........


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## David Lloyd (Mar 22, 2006)

stone14 said:


> i used cissus drol for 4 weeks ( have used it before with no problems, this time round i used 100mg dhea ed with it, when i ran out of dhea i couldnt *get it up* properly for about 3 weeks...........


that would be more likely due to the drol i would think

100mg of DHEA is quite a high dose though


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

DHEA as stated above a few posts suggested it elivated estrogen in men, when I said 25mg max, that is correct as endo levels will elivate with exo supplementation, DHEA is a bit diffrent than the other hormones like this.

If you want bigger doses then you probably need to take an AI with it.

I got testicular atrophy off of 100mg, that is why I said 25mg max, and you can even half that with decent results.

Never used Mdrol myself, nor have any desire to do so.


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## jonesy86 (Nov 30, 2009)

sorry to hi-jack the thread, how do u go about getting your testosterone levels tested?


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## David Lloyd (Mar 22, 2006)

jonesy86 said:


> sorry to hi-jack the thread, how do u go about getting your testosterone levels tested?


its just a blood test

ask your doc

if he wont do it - he will at least refer you to someone who will eg an endocrinologist


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## mikes75 (Oct 18, 2013)

I would go with low dose clomid for 3 months to get lh up, something like 25mg eod and last month 12,5mg eod because the testicles are waken already with that hcg u did so its better not to **** them up with too much hcg!


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## SSJay (Feb 11, 2011)

mikes75 said:


> I would go with low dose clomid for 3 months to get lh up, something like 25mg eod and last month 12,5mg eod because the testicles are waken already with that hcg u did so its better not to **** them up with too much hcg!


Hopefully he has recovered now mate, considering this thread was almost 4 years ago..


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