# Testosterone Enanthate & Tbol---- Diary



## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

Good afternoon all,

Some of you maybe aware of my previous TBOL, DBOL diaries. I have learnt a lot from these cycles...Good & Bad!

Anyway i was not going to post up this cycle, however i have changed my mind for 3 reasons.

1. i know some people appreciate and follow my progress.

2. I can go back and reflect on the cycle and how i felt at certain times etc...

3. I can also get CONSTUCTIVE! criticism which will allow me to tweak areas i have overlooked.

For me this is the big cycle as it is using injectables, i must say i am a little excited by the up ana coming cycle yet a little nervous (kind of like popping your cherry lol)

Anyways i will give you a quick overview the cycle:

Test E 10 wks @ 500mg

Tbol 4 wks @ 40mg ED

HCG 12 wks @ 500 UI each week (maybe 250UI twice a week)

Week 12 PCT:

7 x 100mg Clomid

21 x 50mg

7 x 25mg

I also have Nolva & Armidex on hand just incase.

I will post up my macro nutrient levels later and some pictures next week. I hvave been on a diet for the last 5 weeks and have lost just over a stone (14lbs) i am hoping to lose a little more before the start of my cycle which is set for the 1st Feb.

*Please remeber i don't mind constuctive critiscm, but people who try and put me off because they say i am not ready will be ignored as i have made my mind up on this a long tme ago.*

*Many thanks! :beer1:*


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## gym rat (Jul 10, 2007)

all the best woody, you should get a before pic up, then a half way cycle pic then a pic at the end,


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## NeilpWest (Aug 19, 2007)

Good luck i will follow this one as well. One thing though i would up your tbol to atleast 60-80mg ed i dont think your get much from 40 but thats completly your choice.


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## Ellis (Mar 18, 2006)

certainly a big increase from your previous two cycles, any reason why you have decided not to be so causious this time?


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## Tall (Aug 14, 2007)

Ellis said:


> *certainly a big increase from your previous two cycles*, any reason why you have decided not to be so causious this time?


^^^ Agree with Ellis.

Also are you giving your body enough time off cycle...?


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

Well i was always contemplating doing a test E cycle from the start. I was cautious before because as i was worried about my the gyno symptoms as i had pretty severe gyno before.

This was not through steriods or estrodial but through my prolactin secreting tumour. Also i wanted to make sure i could recover my natural testosterone after being shutdown again.

From the last 2 cycles it appears that my body can both handle the estrodial and also the recovery very well in PCT.

The 500mg has been determined as a great start ammount for a a first time user of Test E. My natural test levels are high end of normal so at a guess that puts me at around 200mg of natural test a week, so adding another 300 would be benifical i think. If i feel it is to much i will drop the dose but otherwise i think i will be fine.

The Tbol is just to give me a good kick start in the first 4 weeks, i may up the dose depending on how i feel, but 40mg is fine to start.

My balls seem to respond to quite low amonts of LH so i think the HCG will also be effective in keeping my Leydig cells functioning.

I will post up pics from begining to end for ya bud. It is also good for me as i can go back and see how much progress i have made. I will also be making a short film on the complete process including training, This will be quite intimidating as alot of you guys could probably bench 3 x's what i can, but hey we all have to start somewhere!

I think i will leave the ball bag time laspe recovery this time round thou lol


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## Tall (Aug 14, 2007)

I think natty test, from memory, is *50mg* per week CWoody... (not 200mg)...

You will make gains on lower doses - don't kid yourself into thinking more is better...

Its upto you at the end of the day, but this whole 'rule' of doing 500mg Test as a first cycle just seems nuts to me - and just seems to be an idea which exists on the boards.

The problem you will have CWoody is if you post on an internet board than you were going to do 200mg of Test per week with no kickstart some arm chair warrior would tell you you are wasting your time... I also don't beleive for one second that you would actually reduce the dose as you say you would...

I mean you no offense by any of the above - I'm just fairly straight talking.

I hope it works out for you whatever you decide.


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## 13stonetarget (Aug 21, 2007)

Good luck mate, interested to follow this. However, I would go with 250mg myself. If I ever do injectables, that's what I'll be starting with.

Best of luck.


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

TH&S said:


> I think natty test, from memory, is *50mg* per week CWoody... (not 200mg)...
> 
> You will make gains on lower doses - don't kid yourself into thinking more is better...
> 
> ...


I am not naive, i have spoken to senior members on this board regarding this cycle.

Actually you will find that males in there early teens can produce up to 300mg of T PW and the average male produces between 60 - 120mg. My blood levels are around 25 nmol at a guess which puts me at the high end of normal.

If i decide something is not working for me in the right way then i will change it, that was evident in my DBOL cycle when i had to stop it, the last thing i wanted to do was to stop but i determined that would be the best solution for me.

I am ambitious yes...reckless no.

I am a forward speaking person also and i do not take any offense to what you said, i just wish more people were like that.


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## Mr Brown (Mar 20, 2007)

Have you considered running an AI with this cycle Woody? Just with the 500mg test a week and HCG which I've read also is pro gyno.


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## u2mr2 (Sep 17, 2007)

13stonetarget said:


> Good luck mate, interested to follow this. However, I would go with 250mg myself.
> 
> Best of luck.


I agree. You are better off starting on a low dosage of test and then increasing it rather than the other way round as you could incur shutdown, which I think you had before from Dbol didn't you?

Good luck with it though.


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

u2mr2 said:


> I agree. You are better off starting on a low dosage of test and then increasing it rather than the other way round as you could incur shutdown, which I think you had before from Dbol didn't you?
> 
> Good luck with it though.


Mate you are gonna incur shutdown whatever you do...250mg will shut you down fairly quickly in any case so that does not really matter.

If i started on 250mg a week how would i determine that is enough to grow optimally, as the results of Test E are not evident until around week 4, the only affect i will probably notice from the test will be the libido kick in and maybe some snappiness and spots (hopefully no gyno) in the first few weeks.

There is a risk of the HCG causing amortization but 2x250ui or 1x500 ui is a fairly low dose. I have some Arimidex on hand and i have considered running a lose dose of that through the entire cycle.

You know guys you may learn a lot out of what i am about to do...some people may be a bit critical of my cycle, training & diet but i am opening myself up and letting you all see warts and all the effects of my progress.

If it turns out i have been too ambitious and reckless then it will be evident in my posts and will be a very good deterant for many newbies contemplating this sort of cycle. But i am confident in myself and will do my utmost to dispell any doubters!

I am even considering telling my endo and getting an interview with her which would be an eye opener to the to say the least!

If there are any questions i have failed to answer please excuse me as i have a fair bit of work to do at the moment.

....Peace out home boyz!


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## Mars (Aug 25, 2007)

cwoody123 said:


> Good afternoon all,
> 
> Some of you maybe aware of my previous TBOL, DBOL diaries. I have learnt a lot from these cycles...Good & Bad!
> 
> ...


Well good luck woody.

JMO, but i wouldn't run the clomid for more than 4wks.


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## gym rat (Jul 10, 2007)

you seem to have done alot of research mate and your head seems screwed on fairplay to you, alot of guys tend to just jump on to the meds without any idea what its doing to their bodies, goodluck anyway with it


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## Mars (Aug 25, 2007)

TH&S said:


> I think natty test, from memory, is *50mg* per week CWoody... (not 200mg)...
> 
> You will make gains on lower doses - don't kid yourself into thinking more is better...
> 
> ...


Got to agree on the test production, Quote from medical papers.

The testes produce testosterone regulated by a complex chain of signals that begins in the brain. This chain is called the hypothalamic-pituitary-gonadal axis. The hypothalamus secretes gonadotropin-releasing hormone (GnRH) to the pituitary gland in carefully timed pulses (bursts), which triggers the secretion of leutenizing hormone (LH) from the pituitary gland. Leutenizing hormone stimulates the Leydig cells of the testes to produce testosterone. Normally, the testes produce 4-7 milligrams (mg) of testosterone daily.


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## justdiscovering (May 10, 2007)

good luck woody will follow this as ive done in your previous threads,i know youve had big probs in the past ,i also know that hackski has given you alot of good advice too so go for it ,we all know that once someone makes up their mind then thats it.good luck.


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

mars1960 said:


> Got to agree on the test production, Quote from medical papers.
> 
> The testes produce testosterone regulated by a complex chain of signals that begins in the brain. This chain is called the hypothalamic-pituitary-gonadal axis. The hypothalamus secretes gonadotropin-releasing hormone (GnRH) to the pituitary gland in carefully timed pulses (bursts), which triggers the secretion of leutenizing hormone (LH) from the pituitary gland. Leutenizing hormone stimulates the Leydig cells of the testes to produce testosterone. Normally, the testes produce 4-7 milligrams (mg) of testosterone daily.


Could you provide these studies please mate?


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## Guest (Jan 22, 2008)

ive read both your dbol and tbol diaries and i know about your condition (read the 6-oxo one too). tbh i think you need to sit back and think through this again. i would not start off with 250mg straight away, this is going to stay in your body for 2 weeks atleast and you have no idea how its going to effect you.

i am still researching (have been for past 2 years) before i take the plunge which should be this summer all things going well and will only be at 250mg each week at the most for the first time as i dont know how i will react and to be honest its kind of scary to know that it wont just effect you quickly but over a long time.

i know you will probably do what you want but i dont think you are ready mate to be perfectly honest, especially from reading your other threads


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## Mars (Aug 25, 2007)

cwoody123 said:


> Could you provide these studies please mate?


No probs mate.

*Testosterone Deficiency*

*Overview, Incidence*

Physician developed and monitored.

Physician Advisor List

Original source: www.urologychannel.com

Original Date of Publication: 10 Jun 1998

Original Date of Publication: 10 Jun 1998

*Overview, Incidence*

*Overview*

Testosterone production declines naturally with age. Low testosterone, or testosterone deficiency (TD), may result from disease or damage to the hypothalamus, pituitary gland, or testicles that inhibits hormone secretion and testosterone production, and is also known as *hypogonadism*.

Depending on age, insufficient testosterone production can lead to abnormalities in muscle and bone development, underdeveloped genitalia, and diminished virility.

Testosterone is the androgenic hormone primarily responsible for normal growth and development of male sex and reproductive organs, including the penis, testicles, scrotum, prostate, and seminal vesicles. It facilitates the development of secondary male sex characteristics such as musculature, bone mass, fat distribution, hair patterns, laryngeal enlargement, and vocal chord thickening. Additionally, normal testosterone levels maintain energy level, healthy mood, fertility, and sexual desire.

The testes produce testosterone regulated by a complex chain of signals that begins in the brain. This chain is called the hypothalamic-pituitary-gonadal axis. The hypothalamus secretes gonadotropin-releasing hormone (GnRH) to the pituitary gland in carefully timed pulses (bursts), which triggers the secretion of leutenizing hormone (LH) from the pituitary gland. Leutenizing hormone stimulates the Leydig cells of the testes to produce testosterone. Normally, the testes produce 4-7 milligrams (mg) of testosterone daily.

*Incidence and Prevalence*

Testosterone production increases rapidly at the onset of puberty and decreases rapidly after age 50 (to 20-50% of peak level by age 80). Recent estimates show that approximately 13 million men in the United States experience testosterone deficiency and less than 10% receive treatment for the condition.

Studies have shown that men with obesity, diabetes, or hypertension may be twice as likely to have low testosterone levels


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

Thanks for that. I have hunted round for some studies on the subject but drawn a blank. The info i got was from a forum...just goes to show don't believe everything you read  .

I know you may feel i am not ready but it is a long time since my 6oxo thread. I have learned so much since then. I am not willing to wait anymore, progress must be made...and i accept the risk so that is all that needs to be said.

Say i do go ahead and do 500mg a week...what possible difference will it make over taking 250mg? I think i will still suffer the side effects in any case, i will be shutdown, i will be spotty, i will have a high sex drive.

The only possible severe side effect will be gyno but i have treatment in case of that.

Is there is anything i am missing here?


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## dan2004 (May 8, 2007)

Where do you get all your cash for these cycles 

Good luck , be carefull .


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

Pocket money mate...and my paper round ;-)


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## Guest (Jan 22, 2008)

well from research side effects are mostly dose related. if you can get results at 250 why start at 500?

mate you got the rest of the life ahead of you, be sensible when using substances on your body. when i jump in i will start as low as possible as to be honest, health is number 1. i know you probably got your mind set but i honestly think your jumping the gun. i also think you can progress much more with change of diet and training and simply waiting and not just going on because your not seeing the results you want.

only since changed by eating habits two years ago i put on over 3-4 stone, i was a very skinny 11 stone when i was 17 and im now 21 and sit at a fairly lean 15-15.5 natural. im hoping when i start cycling to get up to 17 stone, but i wont push my body too hard with gear as at the end of the day your health is the most important thing you have.


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## uknumbr14 (Sep 24, 2007)

i took my 1st course at 17.i was taking 200mg of deca and 500mg sus.i made some good gains,and loved every second of it.I knew nothing of pct back then,never did a pct and didnt really think of the effects on my body back then.you have researched well,spoken to some really good guys who know what there talking bout on ere.you have your course planned,pct planned and hopefully your diet and routine.i wish id researched like you have when i was your age.anyway good luck and enjoy


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## fifibobo (Oct 29, 2007)

Good luck Woody mate, will be watching this with interest.


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## irwit (Mar 29, 2007)

I think your being a little impatient. Its not like 250mg isnt going to be enough to give you great results. The other good point is later down the line you can then do a 500mg of test and get even better results and also go into it with alot more experience about how test e effects your body.


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

Well i had some time on my hands this afternoon so i thought i would try and inject a needle and see how it felt. I washed the area with an alcohol swab took a 21 1.5inch green and pushed it all the way into my Glute, i then drawed back on the plunger to see if i hit any blood vessels.

To be honest there was nothing to it , i felt hardly any pain.

One question...Should i be feeling resistance as i enter the muscle? as i felt the needle went in quite easily.


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## fifibobo (Oct 29, 2007)

cwoody123 said:


> One question...Should i be feeling resistance as i enter the muscle? as i felt the needle went in quite easily.


Not really, sometimes get 'crunching' sound/feel which is scar tissue I think. Just stretch area you are jagging, and should go in sweet with no resistance. If needles were blunted for any reason, you may get resistance from this.


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## Aftershock (Jan 28, 2004)

Did you put any gear in during this little adventure?

I'm not one for putting holes in myself just for fun but each to his own 

I think that is quite a wide guage needle although I used them for glute shots when I started. You may find it a little sore tomorrow.

The hardest part it breaking the skin (a little twist if the hand helps here, like a corkscrew action) after this your wont feel any resistance.

Id say a 1 1/4 inch blue would be more appropriate though mate.

I do think 250mg of eth would serve you well this time around and give good gains. 1lb of real muscle a week is realistically what your aiming for on cycle, taking more gear than necessary to achieve this wont make you gain any faster but but almost always means more sides!


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

Aftershock said:


> Did you put any gear in during this little adventure?


lol I ain't stupid mate... i just used washing up liquid instead (Joke: don't try this at home kids)

Yea the only pain i found was when piercing the skin or when i had to swap hands to draw on the plunger. It is a actually a pretty difficult area to inject.

Unfortunately i only have 21g 1 1/2 or 25g 5/8 in so i will have to go with the green ones for my Glutes but i don't think it will be to much of an issue. If i get a chance i will pop into needle exchange and see if they have the other needles.

You recommend 1lb a week gain, from what has been touted around that is the amount you should aim for naturally, so why would it not be higher if you are assisted? Don't get me wrong i am not expecting to gain a massive amount and if i do gain 1lb a week then so be it...thats a 10lbs gain in 10 weeks which i would be happy with.

Proof is in the pudding...so we will just have to see.


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## Guest (Jan 23, 2008)

mate ill follow it even though i think your wrong lol good luck anyway as it will help me with my 1st cycle.  subscribed


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## Aftershock (Jan 28, 2004)

I would say anybody apart from new trainers would be doing exceptionally well to be gaining a pound a month naturally.

Also when you hear of people gaining huge amounts of weight on cycle a lot of that is increased blood volume, water etc which will fall off post cycle.


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

Okay here is my proposed diet plan:

Upon finishing my diet i will be at 2000 cal. I try to stick too:

40% protein 40% Carbs 20% Fat, and that is what i will follow below. I may amend the amount of calories depending on how much weight i do or do not gain:

Week 1 3000

Week 2 3500

Week 3 3500

Week 4 4000

Week 5 4000

Week 6 4000

Week 7 4000

Week 8 4500

Week 9 4500

Week 10 4500

Week 11 3500

Week 12 3000

I will try to get most of my nutrition out of Lean meats and complex carbs but i will be adding in my whey&oat shakes to make up the numbers. And of course i will be adding EFA's also.


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

Oooo forgot to mention. I have just had a blood test done, i should have all the results in by Tuesday. I will then get my bloods done 6 weeks after pct which should then give us an accurate picture of what going on.


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## ba baracuss (Apr 26, 2004)

Hello mate, I'm interested in seeing how you get on with this.

I've read bits of your other thread where you abandoned the last cycle, but could you just clear up why you've decided to do gear at such an early stage?

I know you've had various medical problems etc - have these meant that your natural test is lower than normal, or can you just not be ****d to wait and have decided to get straight into gear?


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## NeilpWest (Aug 19, 2007)

cwoody123 said:


> Okay here is my proposed diet plan:
> 
> Upon finishing my diet i will be at 2000 cal. I try to stick too:
> 
> ...


I might have missed something but you should keep your cals high in pct not put them down you will just lose more of your gains.


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## bigacb (Nov 13, 2007)

How old are you woody?


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## 13stonetarget (Aug 21, 2007)

Any blood test results yet?


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

Sorry guys i have been really ill over the last few days. This may delay my cycle start date by a couple of days.

**I might have missed something but you should keep your cals high in pct not put them down you will just lose more of your gains.**

Well i will still be in anabolic state of sorts during week 11-12 due to the half life of the test, however i will not be as efficient as what i would be during weeks 1-10 hence the reason i dropped the calories a bit. If lets say i do gain around a stone then that will put me at 190lbs which if i x by 14 gives me a maintaince cal range of about 2600 calories.

I may be completely wrong here but that is how i saw it??

**How old are you?**

I am 27 years old mate.

**Blood test results**

LH 2.1

FSH 1.0

Estrodial <80

Prolactin 124

Testosterone == Still waiting, usually take longer to come through


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

Day 1

Ok so i have taken the plunge! Just injected 500mg of Test and taken 40 mg of Tbol along with some milk thistle.

I must admit when it came to injecting it my hands were shaking bad, i put the needle in first time and felt pain almost as soon as i passed the the skin so i withdrew the needle an tried again slightly to the left, this time i got no pain so i aspirated (Which is no easy feat!) and then injected. My **** is a little sore right now but i suppose that is to be expected.

Anyways obviously nothing to report yet.

Will keep you informed.


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## NeilpWest (Aug 19, 2007)

cwoody123 said:


> Day 1
> 
> Ok so i have taken the plunge! Just injected 500mg of Test and taken 40 mg of Tbol along with some milk thistle.
> 
> ...


i found it very awkward injecting my glute on my own try your quad mate you can sit down and take your time over it. And i agree bout aspirating can be a right pain to pull the plunger up when its stuck in your body. good luck with it any ways.


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## u2mr2 (Sep 17, 2007)

cwoody123 said:


> Day 1
> 
> Ok so i have taken the plunge! Just injected 500mg of Test and taken 40 mg of Tbol along with some milk thistle.
> 
> ...


Nice one.

I did my first test injection a week ago, I am doing a 10 week cycle of 250mg of test enan per week with 30mg dbol ed for weeks 1-3, and I was ****ting myself too. Not much to it though once you have done the first one.


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## GOTMILF (Aug 31, 2007)

Just a quick question... how many mg's in a ml? Endo has me on 2 ml's every 3 weeks.


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

Mine is 250mg per ml


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

Day 2

I have a good sized lump on my ****...pretty sore to be honest. From what i have read this is pretty normal.

Had training today...i would say i am still under the weather at the moment as my lifts have gone down by around 20%


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

Day 3

Well the pain in my **** is still very prominent! I have a lump under the skin in the injection area along with a nice bruise. I don't know if this is where i placed the injection first time which hurt or second time where i actually injected the Test E.

Either way i will give it another 4 days before i consider going to hospital.

Has anybody else had these symptoms first time they injected?

I am using BD Testabol Enthanate.


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## NeilpWest (Aug 19, 2007)

its trauma cas you jabbed took it out then jabbed in the same area i did this on my first jab got a big lump and went red had it for a good week or so.


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## noturbo (Oct 27, 2006)

Did you change needles for the second injection?

Also id recomend trying the quads, much easier to inject as you can use both hands and see exactly what your doing

2ml is quite alot to put in a fresh muscle too so prob just not used to it


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

No i did not change the needle, just re-inserted it into a different location. I think i will try the quad next as recommended.

Many thanks guys...puts my mind at rest a little.


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## NeilpWest (Aug 19, 2007)

yeah i find the quad much easier trying to aspirate with it in your ar*e is a right pain. Also you might be bruised as you didnt change the needle it probably would have been bluntened abit from the first jab. good luck for your next jab.


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

lol Thanks...i think i will need it!


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## SCJP (Sep 8, 2005)

NeilpWest said:


> yeah i find the quad much easier trying to aspirate with it in your ar*e is a right pain. Also you might be bruised as you didnt change the needle it probably would have been bluntened abit from the first jab. good luck for your next jab.


If I was injecting (& this isn't the voice of experience), I'd definitely not inject my bum, at least not until I was rather experienced. Reason being that if the worst case scenario became reality, & I developed a big fcuk off abscess, it would be far easier to deal with on a quad or dealt, & I'd at least be able to sit down in comfort.


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## pauly7582 (Jan 16, 2007)

I'd rather lose a chunk of my ass than a chunk of my quad.

Always use a fresh sharp needle to inject. Use a blue (the bleeding sounds like you used a green).

it sounds like you may have injected too shallow, if there is a lump under the skin and bruising.


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

*Day 4*

i was feeling quite routh today...i stayed in bed most of the afternoon...My appetie is not very high at the moment. I got my 5kg of Protein today from myprotein.co.uk. I thought i would give it a go without any flavoring or sweeteners. It did not taste bad but was pretty crap at mixing...i think i will have to dig "Big blender" out the only thing with that is i have to wash it out 3 or 4 times a day.

My **** is still bloody sore....i would say my entire right cheek is inflamed still, i am hoping it will go down soon. Either way i am gonna hunt down some blue pins before my next shot!

I don't think i injected to shallow as it was a 1 1/2 " needle which i pushed right in. I reckon this is more to do with the first shot where i think i hit a nerve.


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## Ellis (Mar 18, 2006)

this is something that happens from time to time with injections you gotta just learn to live with it, occasionally you'll get a swollen and painful injection that is followed by what seems flu like symptoms such as feeling tired etc, its not necessarily down to the brand of gear or the injection technique, in al honesty i dont know why it happens occasionally it just does and its the risk you take.


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## 13stonetarget (Aug 21, 2007)

Dude, no offence but you are always ill!

Hope your injection site feels better soon!


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## NeilpWest (Aug 19, 2007)

get a hand held blender for like £5 i think mine was and they mix it fine i wouldnt spend loads of money on a big old blender.


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

*Day 6*

Well over the last couple of days i have still felt ****...i imagined my workout out yesterday was going to be crap...but in actual fact it turned out quite good. I was not lifting massive weights but the weight was back up from before i was ill. My stamina seemed better also, i think this is a good indication that i am just getting better more than any immediate results from the AAS.

Over the last couple of days i would say my libido has gone absolutely manic! which is nice...also i have noticed my body heating up quite a lot...last night i had to sleep on top of the covers with the bedroom window open and the ceiling fan blowing! o well at least i know things are kicking in.

I am glad to report that the swelling in my right buttock is now subsiding...a little sore still but defiantly more manageable. I have got my hands on some 23g blues so i will be trying quads next.

Neil i already own the big ass blender (smoothie maker) my bro bought it for me last Christmas...the only thing using it is washing it up...i still may pick a small one up thou just for the sake of mess more than anything.

*Food*

Now i will be honest with you guys this week my food has not been great as i simply just have not been feeling good. I have however forced a few whey/oat shakes down my neck each day and as much protein as possible. I know i need to get more of my macros from other clean foods but i simply could not eat large amounts. Anyways i started this cycle at 12st 8lbs and this morning i was 12st 12lbs...i believe most of this if not all is probably my body starting to hold water/Glycogen.

Anyways i think i have covered everything... im off my my hourly tommy tank lol


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

*Day 10*

By the end of my first injection i was feeling good...i had got over my illness and had a couple of good training sessions. On Monday i injected in to my quad with a 23g blue...i must say it was a lot easier to get the needle in and aspirate. I find once i get past the skin it just glides right in. Anyways 6 hours after the injection i had no pain...result i thought...next day i got the same pain as what i had in my Glute when i injected and also what Ellis mentioned "Test Flu"

This must have been what happened last time as i just felt tired and achy. Difference this time is i seem to be over it much quicker than my first shot and gobbling down a couple of ibuprofen seems to allow me to manage the pain. I just had a killer workout which is nice.

i have got a funny feeling i may have put a few more pounds on already but will wait until Friday until i verify.

Does anyone think taking antihistamines would help with test flu?


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## Five-O (May 21, 2006)

Ellis said:


> this is something that happens from time to time with injections you gotta just learn to live with it, occasionally you'll get a swollen and painful injection that is followed by what seems flu like symptoms such as feeling tired etc, its not necessarily down to the brand of gear or the injection technique, in al honesty i dont know why it happens occasionally it just does and its the risk you take.


Very true, I seem to get this most with homebrew where I might inject 500mg in one go.

Id only worry about a lump if it was EXTREMLY sore and painful and hot to touch, that normally indicates an infection, I occaisonally get a hard lump the day after, IMO its sometimes from not massaging enough to disperse the fluid afterwards.

You could be encountering sore jabs if your a little nervous when injecting and shaking the needle slightly, just try your best to keep it still and relax, I personally prefer glutes to shoot but it can be awkward, I actually lean against the bathroom sink to keep one leg solid and then have no weight on the other foot, it works well.

Oh yeah, you could also try heating the oil before you shoot, it always works for me at reducing pain.


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

*Day 15*

weighed in at 13st 5lbs today which puts me at 9lbs on in just over 2 weeks...before i get the flaming about it being to much to gain i have to inform you that before i started the bulk my Glycogen levels were depleted due to dietl so that accounts for some of the weight gain also along with the estogenic effects has probably trigged me to hold on to some water aswell.

I injected into my quad again last night in around the same place as i did before...this time i i hit a nerve so i withdrew and injected again slightly to the right which seemed to do the trick. I massaged the area for about 15 mins then went of to bed. This morning i was really surprised as there seemed to be no intense pain in the area which was nice. I have also noticed no Test flu symptoms either today.

I assume this means my muscle and body has got used too the test i am injecting. By the end of the week i find my manic libido slows a bit but just a couple of hours after injecting i am manic again! (My nuts are actually aching as i can't seem to leave myself alone lol)

I have noticed that i am starting to get more hungry over the last few days despite still being on tbol which normally kills my appetite.

I am pushing myself more at the gym...i would say i am lifting heavier but i think this more down to my own focus than anything else. I managed to dead 130kg which is a personal best for me.

Ps... The HCG is doing a great job of keeping my nuts full so far!


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## Five-O (May 21, 2006)

cwoody123 said:


> *Day 15*
> 
> weighed in at 13st 5lbs today which puts me at 9lbs on in just over 2 weeks...before i get the flaming about it being to much to gain i have to inform you that before i started the bulk my Glycogen levels were depleted due to dietl so that accounts for some of the weight gain also along with the estogenic effects has probably trigged me to hold on to some water aswell.
> 
> ...


Sounds like its coming together mate, sounds like you dispersed the test well by massaging the area, keep doiung it mate, hopefully it will work every time, sometimes there might be a small bit of pain from the needle moving whilst its in, on the plus side, a little pain for some serious gain...lol....nice work.

:lift:


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## TaintedSoul (May 16, 2007)

I think the reason everyone is going on about why go from 250mg to 500mg. If it worked before why not do it again?

But I must say you seem to have researched a helluva alot so I hope this goes well.... still no pics though???


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

*Day 22*

Well after saying i had no pain after my last shot the very next day i got severe pain again. Over the week it it went away. I injected yesterday and so far no pain.

I weighed in at 13st 11lbs this morning which is another 6lbs in 7 days. I finished tbol on saturday. My appetite is through the roof at the moment as well as my sex drive. I am also sleeping very well.

All my weights seem to be going up at the gym...i seem to have a little more focus, stamina and strength...i am also getting a good pump lately too. As i am just entering week 4 i am hoping to expect lots more progress.

Every one says i am looking alot more stockier up top which is nice.


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## Frijiman (Nov 23, 2007)

Got any before and after pics mate? well done so far


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

I have decided against posting my initial and progress pictures until the end of the cycle. I have choose to do this because all i seem to get is negative comments about i am not ready etc... and to be honest this demoralizes me a fair bit.

I will however post some before and after pictures at the end of my cycle as it does not really matter what they think at that point.

At the moment i have good determination and i want to keep it that way.


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## diaita (Nov 30, 2007)

cwoody just read m8,flu symptoms and soreness could be because its your first time with test,when ive done quads, the pain i feel is like somebodys given me a dead leg lasts a couple of days.good luck


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

I know mate i have read...i am just documenting what is going on.


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

*Day 26*

Well after i posted up the 13st 11 figure my weight seems to have gone down a bit down to 13st 9lbs today.

I feel for me so far that the test has not fully kicked in yet in regards to strength and size. I think the tbol had that initial impact and now i have finished it things have dropped off a little. I also think i was over training certain muscle groups a little so have backed of to try to give them enough rest.

Hopefully i should see some clear signs that the test is working as i am just coming to the end of week 4 now.

The thing that i am really noticing about the test is the libido boost! ...on a serious note i can't stop [email protected] must have knocked one out over 25 times in 5 days! so rry to be so graphic but it is having a real effect on me... i thought this is great to start with but now my dick is killing me. I am going to try to be strong from now on...but i know if i don't keep up the 5 finger shuffle then i will just think about sex all the time.

It's a hard life a...lol

Anyways i have upped my food to try and continue growth


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## fits (Feb 3, 2004)

interesting thread.


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## Five-O (May 21, 2006)

I would be expecting it kicking in by now, are you feeling more confident in lifting heavier weights? Do you have someone to push you at the gym, are you feeling more ooommph?

Its hard to explain, its obvious it is workign cos of the libido, you just need to keep plugging away, as long as your gettign stronger and heavier.


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## Bigger&amp;Stronger (Feb 26, 2008)

Good luck with your cycle mate, watching closely.


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

*Day 29*

Well i am weighing in at 13st 11 this morning. So a couple of pounds on. I have found that the weight has gone up on some exercises more than others. Dips the weight has gone down not because of my triceps and chest but because my shoulder is giving out. Where as other exercises like military press and Cable rope tricep pull i have gone up significantly. I am also looking bigger in the mirror.

I have again no pain after this shot so i think my muscle is now use to the test.

I am upping my food as from today so hopefully the weight will continue to go on steadily.


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## Five-O (May 21, 2006)

why are you weighing yourself everyday? The mirror tells the best story by far.

And please realise that you will weigh more at night than in the morning, you can gain anyhting from 5-7lbs in one day easy, hell you can gain that in 10 mins and 2 litres of water later.

Just keep focused on improving lifts, forget about weight, your getting too much into that aspect IMO.


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

*Day 32*

What makes you think i am weighing myself every day? I only every weigh myself in the morning after a ****.

I would say i am significantly stronger in most areas...i am still lagging in some areas, i do seem to be able to train for longer and harder. I would say i do not feel particularly blown away at the moment with the results of the test. However i will plod along... aned complete my course.

I am fairly sure my Test is good as it was from a trusted source. Here is a pic...what do you think?


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## Five-O (May 21, 2006)

cwoody123 said:


> *Day 32*
> 
> What makes you think i am weighing myself every day? I only every weigh myself in the morning after a ****.
> 
> ...





> *What makes you think i am weighing myself every day*? I only every weigh *myself in the morning* after a ****.


lol....erm read your previous posts, that should answer your question...today I am 13st 11.........day blah blah....today I am 13st 11 or so.

All I am saying is go with how you look, have you changed shape wise since you've started? Feeling more pumped? I know and appreciate seeing your weight go up really quick is good for motivation, but you and I know its water mate.


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## miller25 (Apr 22, 2007)

I would like to see what you look like have you got any photo's anywhere.


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

Here you go, I don't want to hear the bollocks about me not being ready for steroids, i bite the bullet and post these up which is more than what most of what you do so give me some slack ok. I have come along way in my opinion and my body looks 100 x better these days.


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## Five-O (May 21, 2006)

cwoody123 said:


> Here you go, I don't want to hear the bollocks about me not being ready for steroids, i bite the bullet and post these up which is more than what most of what you do so give me some slack ok. I have come along way in my opinion and my body looks 100 x better these days.


You'll get respect from me for posting them up for what its worth, but you bringing up the point that you weren't ready for gear only serves the purpose that you know deep down you've possibly dropped a b0llock.

Diet...what are you eating atm?


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

No mate i am just going from the previous post i got before on the subject...i am a 100% clear in my mind that this is what i want to do...otherwise i would not have done it!

I am eating around 4000 kcal a day in meats, oats, whey, Brown rice, whole grain breads etc...


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## Five-O (May 21, 2006)

cwoody123 said:


> No mate i am just going from the previous post i got before on the subject...i am a 100% clear in my mind that this is what i want to do...otherwise i would not have done it!
> 
> I am eating around 4000 kcal a day in meats, oats, whey, Brown rice, whole grain breads etc...


Are you doing any cardio Woody?

This isn't a slur mate, but I think you'd benefit from someone with some good experience to kind of coach you, I really feel you'll get more benefit that way, someone who can put together a good diet and training regimen so you get the best out of your cycles etc.

JMO remember.


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

Five-O said:


> Are you doing any cardio Woody?
> 
> This isn't a slur mate, but I think you'd benefit from someone with some good experience to kind of coach you, I really feel you'll get more benefit that way, someone who can put together a good diet and training regimen so you get the best out of your cycles etc.
> 
> JMO remember.


I do not do much now i am bulking but i before that on my last diet i was running 3-4 times a week. To be honest i felt no benefit from all the cardio anymore than just diet alone, if anything it made me feel weaker.

Some people believe that you can lose significant amounts of fat with diet alone and i tend to agree with that concept as i lost 7 stone with hardly any cardio.

And also cardio on a diet can be very catabolic. I now prefer to stick to weights.

I am toying with the idea of following a VLCD after this cycle as i have read studies where they got very positive results after manipulating a few variables. i think that would them make my results look a lot more prominent. You also have to remember that i am puffy in those pictures due to holding water so until i come off you won't see the best of my results...but you already new that right?

I does seem sometimes that you are trying to have a dig or belittle me somewhat. Although my pictures may look as if i am not very advanced i would say that is a far cry from the truth. I have been investigating and toying with diets for the last 9 years so i would say i know a fair bit...I don't think it is fair to label me as an newbie who has only been doing this for a couple of months.

I bet i could give you a run for your money about the theory of Diet, exercise and muscle building lol


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## ah24 (Jun 25, 2006)

cwoody123 said:


> I do not do much now i am bulking but i before that on my last diet i was running 3-4 times a week. To be honest i felt no benefit from all the cardio anymore than just diet alone, if anything it made me feel weaker.
> 
> Some people believe that you can lose significant amounts of fat with diet alone and i tend to agree with that concept as i lost 7 stone with hardly any cardio.
> 
> ...


LOL mate I'm not flaming here but you have a lot to learn by the looks of it.

Firstly, cardio on a diet can be catabolic? Yes, it *could* be, but if your as knowledgable as you make out with diets, surely you can manipulate it in your favour?

Secondly, I was going to go further in depth but I'm not looking to keep posting differing views, so all I'll say is with your last comment;

*I bet i could give you a run for your money about the theory of Diet, exercise and muscle building lol*

After seeing your pics and looking at Jimmys, I think you could be a little off the mark

Why not take peoples advice on this thread instead of insisting your right? They're only looking out for you and trying to help you achieve your goals.


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## YetiMan1436114545 (Dec 7, 2007)

ah24 said:


> After seeing your pics and looking at Jimmys, I think you could be a little off the mark


Sorry but I have to say this...

Jimmys tonk bruv innit! (Think thats what MT's friend said to him about starting roids and this just seems a perfect time to say that)

To cwoody - I follow this thread with great interest


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## Lux (Mar 23, 2006)

Won't be long until cwoody is behaving like a kid. Hands over ears and stamping feet going "la la la la la, can't hear you, la la la la"



Sure you can't always judge peoples knowledge by looking at their own physique. But posting stuff that shows you at least have some knowledge would help!!!

I mean, cardio is all bad? What about the evidence of tabatas sprints increasing GH and improving fitness?


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## hilly (Jan 19, 2008)

I dont think he was saying cardio is bad just that he doesnt see the benefit of it.

What are your micros like mate protein/carbs/fat.

You have obviously researched your cycle alot. With your diet you say around 4000 cals is this you no you are hitting between 3800-4200 cals or you are just guessing? I notice the biggest mistake people make is not weighing there food they can think they are eating alot more than they really are.

Regarding the lump you have gotten from your injection sometimes if you are not deep enough into the muscle the oil can lay between the muscle and fat. this causes a lump. The oil still gets absorbed it just takes longer.

Keep up the hard work mate


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## Lux (Mar 23, 2006)

hilly2008 said:


> I dont think he was saying cardio is bad just that he doesnt see the benefit of it.


Yeah, sorry about that. Sounded harsher than what i meant it to


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## irwit (Mar 29, 2007)

every credit for posting a pic. You do look like you are holding a lot of water, will be interesting to see how much youve actually put on after your pct.

I'll agree with you that you can lose alot of fat with just a good diet but its not like cardio is going to do any harm. Help you sweat out some of that water aswell ;o)

Anyway stilll think its a really good thread and chear for being so open about your experiences as im sure they are a big help for people looking into doing a cycle themselves.

Good luck with the rest of the cycle.


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## hugyy66 (Mar 8, 2008)

i am 6 ft 200 lbs been working out for 4 years and i have 4 -- 10 ml bottles of tren e 100 mg and 100 tabs of 10 mg winstrol what is the correct way to use everything i am eating very good and want to cut but dont no where to start i here so many different ways im confused and i want to do it right


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## ah24 (Jun 25, 2006)

hugyy66 said:


> i am 6 ft 200 lbs been working out for 4 years and i have 4 -- 10 ml bottles of tren e 100 mg and 100 tabs of 10 mg winstrol what is the correct way to use everything i am eating very good and want to cut but dont no where to start i here so many different ways im confused and i want to do it right


Start your own thread and you may get some help


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## miller25 (Apr 22, 2007)

cwoody123 said:


> Here you go, I don't want to hear the bollocks about me not being ready for steroids, i bite the bullet and post these up which is more than what most of what you do so give me some slack ok. I have come along way in my opinion and my body looks 100 x better these days.


Ok, I think you need to drop the gear and go on a strict diet while doing a decent amount of cardio and some strength training. Basicly what I am trying to say is you need to lose some fat and steroids arnt the answer. You don't really look like you have got any muscle at all.

Don't take it the wrong way just giving you an honest verdict.


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

ah24 said:


> LOL mate I'm not flaming here but you have a lot to learn by the looks of it.
> 
> Firstly, cardio on a diet can be catabolic? Yes, it *could* be, but if your as knowledgable as you make out with diets, surely you can manipulate it in your favour?
> 
> ...


yea i have a lot to learn i suppose....hmm lets see what i i have learned so far.

Low intensity cardio, HIIT, <layer id="google-toolbar-hilite-0" style="background-color: Yellow; color: black;">volume</layer> <layer id="google-toolbar-hilite-1" style="background-color: Cyan; color: black;">training</layer> ---Check

All pituitary Hypothlamus hormones and their functions ---Check

Macro nutrients and there function in the human body ---Check

Insulin, Glucogen, Glycogen, Leptin function ---Check

Hypertrophy, ATP, Protein synthesis ---Check

Leydig cells, SHBG, Albumin, Estrodial, DHT ---Check

Glycemic index, Ketonic diets, Carb cycling ---Check

...God i am boring myself now!!

I just want to point out that you really should not judge a book by its cover especially if that book has been starved of testosterone for 12 years of its young life and replaced with a hormone that causes excessive weight gain, depression, female breast tissue build up and lactation.

I would bet that FiveO has had testosterone since Puberty as well as a nice lean base to build from, i am not saying that i look better as i know this is not the case!

We have completely different variables that you would have to take in to account before you even try to compare us and where we have got. It does not mean i do not know what i am talking about.

Maybe you should read my story from the beginning before making patronizing comments.


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

YetiMan said:


> Sorry but I have to say this...
> 
> Jimmys tonk bruv innit! (Think thats what MT's friend said to him about starting roids and this just seems a perfect time to say that)
> 
> To cwoody - I follow this thread with great interest


The above applies to you too mate.

On a second note i get my bloods taken before and after every cycle which makes me more responsible than many. I have not just blindly chucked steroids down my neck i have spent a year researching and made sure i had PCT set etc...

Thanks for following my posts mate i am sure you will learn a lot wether right or wrong you will learn something before you take the big step!

You have done very well so far mate from what i have read on your post...keep it up ;-)


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

Lux said:


> Yeah, sorry about that. Sounded harsher than what i meant it to


Thats right i did not say that! maybe learning to read would be a good cycle for you too start before you even touch steroids lol

I think cardio has its place for cardiovascular improvement. Every one is different and i have tried both ways and have just posted up what i feel works for me. I find it funny when people slag you off when you say that cardio is not not needed for weight loss.

I suppose it is because they just blindly listen to peoples advice with out assessing whether it is actually working for them. Not in all i cases but in most cases. Just like the people who think Muller lights are good for them! or people who think ab rollers will give them a flat tummy despite being over weight.

Lux you got any pics of yourself and i don't mean those ones ones on on twinkslovedick.com lol


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## Captain Hero (Jun 13, 2004)

I think you should open your mind a bit and not reply using your ego, every response I have read posted by yourself seems very defensive bro.

Youve got balls for posting your pics mate and I respect that, there are some noticeable improvements in your back and chest


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

hilly2008 said:


> I dont think he was saying cardio is bad just that he doesnt see the benefit of it.
> 
> What are your micros like mate protein/carbs/fat.
> 
> ...


No mate i weigh everything almost all the time. I do have a cheat meal every now and then.

Thanks for acknowledging my cycle i have tried to cover all bases as i have learned a lot from my oral cycles about how i feel etc... i really think HCG has made all the difference for me.

When i inject in my quad i first tense my leg to find the area the biggest area of muscle to the right of my leg... i then relax a little and inject. I use 21G 1-quarter " needle and i go right in so i would have thought i was going deep enough, maybe i am missing something obvious?

I may swap legs this week and see how that goes as i have injected into the same muscle for 3 weeks.

Thanks for a non attacking constructive post


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

irwit said:


> every credit for posting a pic. You do look like you are holding a lot of water, will be interesting to see how much youve actually put on after your pct.
> 
> I'll agree with you that you can lose alot of fat with just a good diet but its not like cardio is going to do any harm. Help you sweat out some of that water aswell ;o)
> 
> ...


That is a bloody good point mate! maybe i will do some light cardio to try and deal with water problem.

Thanks for the encouragement ;-)


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Damn, I missed this one, well better late than never

500 test E is just fine bro.

HCG is probably a bit low, but you can do that about 3 times a week.

I never had much luck with that low of a dose of HCG.

Clomid looks a bit low too bro, I would not drop below 50mg, I rarely drop below 100mg, I do notice I lose morning wood if I do this.

Also, I would suggest an AI during, something like adex would be fine twice a week dose.

(1.5 - 9.3) is the range of LH and yours is 2.1? if your testosterone is normal then this kind of means your leydig cells are pretty sensitive.

OK, to cardio or not to cardio....

It is your call, you dont have to do it if you dont want to.

I think the idea here is to gain the most muscle during the shortest period of time.

This will be achieved by doing basic compound lifts increasing your weight or reps each week.

I understand exactally where you are comming from woody.

Libido boost is deffinetly a good indication of your gear being good.

5 grams for each lb of bodyweight for protein is probably too high.

I doubt even in the positive nitrogen condition you are currently in that you can assimilate that.

Take some digestive enzymes and pro-biotics too, this will help you to get more out of your food and keep the immune system tuned up.

70% of your immune system is in the intestines.

Enzymes will help you to get more nutrients out of your food and also not tax the digestive system as much.

Your water is most likely from aromitization. An AI will be helpfull here, so would dandelyon root.

Sleep more.

Enjoy your cycle.


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

miller25 said:


> Ok, I think you need to drop the gear and go on a strict diet while doing a decent amount of cardio and some strength training. Basicly what I am trying to say is you need to lose some fat and steroids arnt the answer. You don't really look like you have got any muscle at all.
> 
> Don't take it the wrong way just giving you an honest verdict.


Fair enough mate.

You are right i have no muscle tone...it must be all that fat that allows me to deadlift 140kg and bench and bench press my body weight!

Pictures don't necessarily show the whole truth mate. I know steroids arnt the answer for fat but i know i have the right more than anyone to use them to get my body back to what it should be! I also get my bloods down before and after and follow PCT so i feel i am doing things a lot more sensibly than most who post on these boards.

Anyways you have your opinion which i respect but do not agree with and your hench bruv! so you must know exactly what your talking about!


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

hackskii said:


> Damn, I missed this one, well better late than never
> 
> 500 test E is just fine bro.
> 
> ...


Thanks mate, Now guys this is constructive criticism from a man that has earned my respect so i know when he recommends something i know that it is not blind dribble but well studied advice.

Yea i forgot to mention that i changed my HCG dose to every 3 days which seems to keep my nuts full. I was thinking of chucking the AI in also but did not want to lower it to much... i also have some D root so will take that

Do you mean pro biotic yogurts like Yakult?

Cheers mate for everything


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## Lux (Mar 23, 2006)

cwoody123 said:


> Lux you got any pics of yourself and i don't mean those ones ones on on twinkslovedick.com lol


No sorry mate. I'm just a keyboard warrior that knows **** all and looks like ****. In fact, i don't even train. I'm just here to worship you guys :crazy:


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## Captain Hero (Jun 13, 2004)

cwoody123 said:


> Thanks mate, Now guys this is constructive criticism from a man that has earned my respect so i know when he recommends something i know that it is not blind dribble but well studied advice.
> 
> Yea i forgot to mention that i changed my HCG dose to every 3 days which seems to keep my nuts full. I was thinking of chucking the AI in also but did not want to lower it to much... i also have some D root so will take that
> 
> ...


those are pro biotic drinks I believe, you can get organic pro biotic yogurts from most places mate pretty cheap too  I normally get the unflavoured ones


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

Captain Hero said:


> I think you should open your mind a bit and not reply using your ego, every response I have read posted by yourself seems very defensive bro.
> 
> Youve got balls for posting your pics mate and I respect that, there are some noticeable improvements in your back and chest


I am defensive because people who no nothing about me make idiotic posts... i will defend myself if i feel people are trying to have a dig.


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## miller25 (Apr 22, 2007)

cwoody123 said:


> Fair enough mate.
> 
> You are right i have no muscle tone...it must be all that fat that allows me to deadlift 140kg and bench and bench press my body weight!
> 
> ...


There is a lot of guys like you in my gym, who are strong and don't really have that much muscle or any real shape, I suppose it's what your goals are. Are you going for strength?. Or are you going for a muscular look cos a lot of guys who look good and arnt really that strong cos they know it isn't all about how much they can lift. I still feel you would benifit from a good diet and no gear, you probably could dead lift 140kg without it anyway.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Well, diffrent people do diffrent things for diffrent reasons.

It is your choice woody to cycle or not.

When things run afoul then the boards are the perfect tool to get back on track.

You already have a plan, I can see that you are open to modifications, nothing wrong with that.

Just keep an eye on high blood pressure and stuff.

I gotta say though, I love the libido on cycle.

When you get older you will forget just what it was.

Doing a cycle makes one remember what used to be.....lol


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

hackskii said:


> Well, diffrent people do diffrent things for diffrent reasons.
> 
> It is your choice woody to cycle or not.
> 
> ...


I must admit i love the libido increase too...but it did get a bit much at times. I don't mean to be graphic but i ****ed so much in a 2 week period my dick all across the right size swelled up and has not gone down. This is just swelling right you cant build the muscles up in your penis can you?? lol i have changed hands to try not to put any pressure on that side...one bonus is i have a lot more girth when it comes to rumpty pumpty with the misses.

I acknowledge that i do need to diet after this, i think a lot of water will go after finishing the cycle along with AI's. I have been toying with the idea of running a VLCD of 800cal a day along with high volume resistance training to preserve lean mass.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

I would opt for the zone diet myself.


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

hackskii said:


> I would opt for the zone diet myself.


Hmmm i will look into that one...cheers.

*Day 36*

Well i injected into my other leg yesterday. Started getting pain around 4 hours after the shot and could barley move my leg this morning. I have a nice case of test flue again today aswell that leaves me feeling hot and cold and wanting to sleep all the time.

I weigh 13st 13 now so a few pounds on. I feel after the tbol i defiantly lost size...i don't know what the reasons were but for sure there is a negative difference.

I ran a blood test today that should be back before Friday. This will then confirm where my Test actually is, i also included SHBG, Albumin, Estodial, LH, FSH.

So we will see.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

You ran a test day 36?

I doubt you will find anything interesting there with the exception of over the top serum test levels

But it would be interesting to see if there is any FSH or LH.

This might give some idea to how fast one shuts down.

5 weeks should be pretty much nothing on LH and FSH.


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## Tall (Aug 14, 2007)

Are you using Pharma or UG Test Woody?


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

Thats what i am looking for, also i am looking for elevated estrodial. I don't know what effect HCG will have on my LH, FSH but we will see.

I am using BD test mate.


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## Lew35 (Feb 10, 2008)

I've been reading with intererest cos I'm gonna start a similar cycle next month.I'm doing a first cycle of 60 mgs of Tbol for 8 weeks and 250 mgs test e (iranian) for 10.Also taking 25 mg a day proviron cos I've had a bit of natural gyno since I was a teen and that leads me to think I'm prone.Got plenty of Nolva on hand too.Hope you achieve your goals cwoody,I'll be keeping a close eye on your progress.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Woody, I would love to see your blood work.............

Dude, I really would like to take a look at that.........

Hell bro, I would be very intested in your monitoring of your blood work during cycle.

I would be willing to pay you to take your tests for the results.......(Ok, within reason ok?)

Nothing to gain but for my own knowledge................

I could learn alot from this, and so could you.................

There is value here......


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

hackskii said:


> Woody, I would love to see your blood work.............
> 
> Dude, I really would like to take a look at that.........
> 
> ...


Well it's lucky enough i can get my blood work done mostly when i want so no problem there. i am also fascinated by the effects also and i am willing to share my results as and when i get them.

If my test is not elevated then i will know there is a problem with my gear...i don't foresee that to be the case as my sex drive is kicking in again! a couple of days after my shot.

If more people get their blood work done please share it with us as we can then build up a much clearer picture about whats going on. Already their was a discussion between me an Pscarb about PCT & recovery after what i experienced with my test levels after 4 week PCT with Clomid.

But if anything that comes of getting my blood work i can get an idea of how my body reacts to all this.

Anyways i will keep you posted when i get my results...Friday hopefully!


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## ju5t1n (May 12, 2006)

Woody don't bite... but I get a feeling your been quite impatient looking at your pics you could have a long way to go natural yet its always a good idea to build a strong solid base natural until you feel you have gone as far as you go before even thinking about AAS bodybuilding is just like any sport you dont become good over night it takes years and years rushing will just make you not reach your full potential.

I hope I haven't offended you and if i'm wrong then i'm wrong just my 2 pence worth.

all in all I wish you all the best. :beer1:

:lift:


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Yah, that is what most people would think, but here is a problem and I can understand why woody is doing it.

He had a prolactin secreting tumor that pretty much gave him bitch tits and way too much escess belly fat, not to mention very low testosterone levels.

For the most part his levels were so low he could hardly have sex, and even that was a problem.

I think he said something like the last 12 years or something.

So, he got the pituitary opperated on, restored his HPTA that has been supressed for years, now he is seing some diffrence going in a positive direction.

Remember, 12 years of having testosterone levels of a girl pretty much puts you in the rears for any kind of development of muscle.

This androgen cycle will allow him to make up for some lost time.

I respect his decision, he isnt doing mad doses, he is using his head, he is doing the blood work, he asks alot of questions.

If I was in his spot, hell yah, I would be doing it too, maybe even more reckless than him, so to that I take my hat off to him.

Charge on Mate.


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

ju5t1n said:


> Woody don't bite... but I get a feeling your been quite impatient looking at your pics you could have a long way to go natural yet its always a good idea to build a strong solid base natural until you feel you have gone as far as you go before even thinking about AAS bodybuilding is just like any sport you dont become good over night it takes years and years rushing will just make you not reach your full potential.
> 
> I hope I haven't offended you and if i'm wrong then i'm wrong just my 2 pence worth.
> 
> ...


Cheers mate. There are few complicated variables which change my situation a bit which Hackskii has kindly filled you in on. But thanks for following ;-)


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Woody, muscle takes time to build, in light of your situation I totally stand behind you.

Bro, if you need any help or any guidence then please ask for some help.

I do have some good idea's to get you where you want to be in regards of your training.


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## ju5t1n (May 12, 2006)

Sorry I didn't fully understand the situation but you can prob imagine that if you had started AAS after training for 6 months because you hadn't seen the gain overnight that every beginer expects then you certainly wouldn't be the first nor the last....

all in all good luck and as Hacksii said plod on :beer1:


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

hackskii said:


> Woody, muscle takes time to build, in light of your situation I totally stand behind you.
> 
> Bro, if you need any help or any guidence then please ask for some help.
> 
> I do have some good idea's to get you where you want to be in regards of your training.


I will be sure to pick your brains on that mate!

I have just been training, i am stronger for sure! i seem to have more intensity. I really think having a few days off has really helped, even to the point where i think i was doing to much in the first place. i think i will leave an extra day between my split and see how it goes.

ju5t1n don't worry about it mate. I must admit i have been a bit defensive but i really do think some people were just having a dig so i do not regret anything i have said or done so far.

Thanks for opening your eyes a bit :beer1:


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## miller25 (Apr 22, 2007)

Just to let you know, i wasn't having a dig, just saying what I thought. In the end you know whats best for you, we all learn by trial n error.


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

miller25 said:


> Just to let you know, i wasn't having a dig, just saying what I thought. In the end you know whats best for you, we all learn by trial n error.


I know you wasn't mate....you simply just did not know the situation. To be honest if i saw someone posting those pictures up and i would have assumed they had just started also and would have not recommended any type of gear...just solid training and diet.

Just follow along mate...i am sure you got lots of good advice to give. I have made my mind up on this and there is no going back for me.


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## miller25 (Apr 22, 2007)

Nah, I am on a learning curb myself. I have a feeling one over the next few years you gonna post a picture off you looking ripped, I can just see it.


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## ba baracuss (Apr 26, 2004)

Woody, without gear, are your test levels what is considered normal following your treatments/op's, or are they still lower than normal?


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

They are normal mate


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## ba baracuss (Apr 26, 2004)

cwoody123 said:


> They are normal mate


Thanks. So you're effectively just like a normal 1st time test user?

In that case this will be an interesting thread as if I have a dabble at some point in the future it will be test also.


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

*Day 43*

Ok i have some blood test results back...quite odd to say the least.

LH < 1.0 (1-10)

FSH <1.0 (1-10)

Testosterone + > 55.5 (10 - 40)

Estrodial 455 (<80)

Albumin 39 (34-48)

SHBG 14 (13-71)

Prolactin 66 (0-400)

Ok so estrodial is very high which i was expecting anyway, it is the highest it has ever been in all my blood work. Will start Armidex as soon as i can.

LH & FSH is less than 1 which means i am fully shutdown. Interesting to note that the HCG does not show up as LH FSH in the blood test results.

Testosterone +> 55.5 to me this means that it is more than 55.5 so that must be as high as they test which means i do not know for sure my full Testosterone profile but i know it is very high.

Albumin is normal but SHBG seems to be very low compared some of my other results which normally lurked between 30-50 and they are now 14 which means that more bioavailabe test will be available...or there could be some skewed results from the test.

I am still trying to make sense of the results but by the looks of things i am anabolic.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

These tests had to be done on cycle correct?

Judging by the low FSH and LH and high test, it looks like you did it during your cycle.

Judging by the high estrogen, possibly there is alot of aromitization going on, maybe your body fat % might have something to do with that but that would be just a guess.

I would get those numbers more in line with base values if it was me.

I would be very interested to know what dose of adex you will use to get the numbers within base values.

Very interesting.


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

hackskii said:


> These tests had to be done on cycle correct?
> 
> Judging by the low FSH and LH and high test, it looks like you did it during your cycle.
> 
> ...


i just ran them on the cycle out of interest to be honest and because i can. I had the bloods taken 36 days into the cycle so it was during the cycle...is your memory going bud lol

For sure their is a lot of estrodial floating around which is not only due to the test but the HCG aswell as you mentioned before that it armotizes pretty heavily. The only thing i have noticed has been the water retention...no signs of gyno which means i am not prone to estrogen induced gyno. However prolactin induced gyno is another story!

isn't it strange how my SHBG is so low and my Albumin is normal considering estrodial is so high considering estrodial has an impact on SHBG. Tbol lowers SHBG right?...the only thing is i stopped tbol over a week before those bloods were drawn. 

From experience with Armidex i don't think it will take to long at all before my estrodial levels are low...we will see.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

I am no endo but if I had to guess, id say there is alot of aromitization. Yes SHBG raises with estrogen but maybe SHBG will elivate later?

I bet you got alot of free test going on right now.....lol

At least you know your stuff is good......


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

*Day 52*

I really don't have much to report. My weight has remained at 13st 11lbs so not change in a couple of weeks. My strength gains seem to have leveled off also.

Is it normal in a cycle for both strength and weight to level off?


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## NeilpWest (Aug 19, 2007)

cwoody123 said:


> *Day 52*
> 
> I really don't have much to report. My weight has remained at 13st 11lbs so not change in a couple of weeks. My strength gains seem to have leveled off also.
> 
> Is it normal in a cycle for both strength and weight to level off?


mine slowed towards the end of my 8weeks but my weight didnt stay the same for more than a few days during cycle was always going up. Strength wise i was dissapointed with test enan.


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

This is what i have noticed...it seems when i was kick starting with tbol i was getting great gains in strength and size, a week after i stopped i have noticed things have stalled. This confuses me as Test E is more Anabolic/Androgenic than tbol.

I thought it was just me brining to much into it but i am not sure now, i wish i had run tbol all the way through!


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## NeilpWest (Aug 19, 2007)

cwoody123 said:


> This is what i have noticed...it seems when i was kick starting with tbol i was getting great gains in strength and size, a week after i stopped i have noticed things have stalled. This confuses me as Test E is more Anabolic/Androgenic than tbol.
> 
> I thought it was just me brining to much into it but i am not sure now, i wish i had run tbol all the way through!


i didnt kick start my test cycle but i mass gains right till near the end were great i wouldnt say they stalled till the last few days. tbh i didnt really notice any strength at all was quite annoyed. My next cycle starting next week is test cyp instead reportidly people get better strength from that.


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

Well let us know how you get on with that mate.


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## irwit (Mar 29, 2007)

I would of thought strength would shoot up initialy and then only gradually get more but would of thought weight gains would be pretty consistant trhoughout ( after initial water retention) as all that test in your body would be rebuilding you back twice the size after a sneeze, let alone squats and deads ( yes I am exaduarting! )

Maybe you are losing fat plus you have a lot of water so that will fluctuate your weight alot.


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## irwit (Mar 29, 2007)

100th post :lift:


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Yah woody, the gains slow on test for me at around week 6 to 7.

There are other drugs like deca that keep going for longer than that, but the gains are slower and longer, supression is bigger and longer too...lol

Kind of a wash.

That is typical with test though. I dont know how these guys keep getting gains past the 8 week mark.

Maybe they are a bit creative with diffrent compounds.


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## Tall (Aug 14, 2007)

hackskii said:


> Yah woody, the gains slow on test for me at around week 6 to 7.
> 
> There are other drugs like deca that keep going for longer than that, but the gains are slower and longer, supression is bigger and longer too...lol
> 
> ...


Do you get bloods done when your gains slow down...?


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## TaintedSoul (May 16, 2007)

It's this reason I though perhaps 6on/off would be better for me as results seem to taper off after the 6 week mark.

Perhaps those getting results are switching from one steroid to another and back again.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

TH&S said:


> Do you get bloods done when your gains slow down...?


Why would I do this?


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## Five-O (May 21, 2006)

TH&S said:


> Do you get bloods done when your gains slow down...?


The body can only normally grow for a certain amount of time mate IMO, I don't feel bloodwork would prove anything worth noting at that stage tbh.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Five-O said:


> The body can only normally grow for a certain amount of time mate IMO, I don't feel bloodwork would prove anything worth noting at that stage tbh.


Not only that but LH and FSH will be low or next to nothing, Testosterone will be sky high, Estrogen would be seriously elivated, cortisol would be high, many things to consider.

Problem lies in the fact that it does not want to be in anabolism, this is kind of self defeating for homeostasis and survival.

At this point alot of muscle requires alot of fuel and extra work from the body.

The body knows this and responds to massive shutdown, among other things.

Blood work during a cycle wont say much of anything really as you are chemically altering your hormonal profile.

The body is only trying to adapt to what you are doing and at this point, the body is much smarter than we are trying to tweak things.


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

hackskii said:


> Not only that but LH and FSH will be low or next to nothing, Testosterone will be sky high, Estrogen would be seriously elivated, cortisol would be high, many things to consider.
> 
> Problem lies in the fact that it does not want to be in anabolism, this is kind of self defeating for homeostasis and survival.
> 
> ...


This seems to be what i noticed in during my most recent blood test. If gains slow or stop around week 6-7 why do people advocate a 10 week test cycle?

I am thinking if my gains are slowing or stalling then maybe i might be able to take advantage of the extra T in another way. My theory would be i could follow that VLCD diet i was talking about and use the combination of T and resistance training to maintain my muscle mass.

What do you think?


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## Tall (Aug 14, 2007)

The reason I asked if bloodwork had been done was to see what was happening to SHBG levels in the body....

Other factors by week 6 or 7 could be down regulation of receptor sites or possible 'pathway burnout' (pathway from receptor to cell)

Regular bloodwork would show where SHBG levels were. And as we know, compounds can be added in to counteract high SHBG levels... (If increased SHBG were the reason for the gains slowing down...), although I don't know if they would show receptor downgrade.

The body really doesn't want to grow as much muscle as people try to make it do when on cycle, as the body strives for homeostasis.

Other issues relating to gains slowing down are people beleiving all the weight they are gaining is pure muscle, as opposed to some muscle and a large amount of water and glycogen.

By week 6 are you guys saying your strength stops increasing...? Or your weight gain slows to a more normal level...?

Going back to the homeostatis point - by week 6 could it be that the body has realised that it doesn't need to continue retaining so much fluid as a result of the exogenous test in the blood stream...?

So hacks the above are some reasons as to why someone may get blood done mid cycle. Perhaps I'm coming at this from the wrong angle. Who knows. But it something, anything, which was going well for for me suddenly starts to not produce the expected results I'd be having a look into the root cause of the problem.


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

cwoody123 said:


> *Day 43*
> 
> Ok i have some blood test results back...quite odd to say the least.
> 
> ...


Strange you mention SHBG as you can see from my blood test results show my SHBG is very low...a lot lower than what it normally is. If i was to work out my free T from these values then my values would be through the roof!

I personally would say it is the last 2 weeks that my weight and strength have stopped...saying that though i weighed in at 14st 2 this morning which is another 5lbs on so i think i maybe jumping the gun a bit.

By fluid are you talking about water? Because i feel i have lost a fair bit of water from the pics i posted up last.


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## Tall (Aug 14, 2007)

cwoody123 said:


> Strange you mention SHBG as you can see from my blood test results show my SHBG is very low...a lot lower than what it normally is. If i was to work out my free T from these values then my values would be through the roof!
> 
> I personally would say it is the last 2 weeks that my weight and strength have stopped...saying that though i weighed in at 14st 2 this morning which is another 5lbs on so i think i maybe jumping the gun a bit.
> 
> By fluid are you talking about water? Because i feel i have lost a fair bit of water from the pics i posted up last.


How do you calculate your free test from the above Woody...?

When you say your strength has stopped can you be more specific...?

You gained 5lbs in two weeks and yet the weight gain is slowing down? What was it like before?

(Appologies if any of the above was answered previously in the thread...)


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

TH&S said:


> The reason I asked if bloodwork had been done was to see what was happening to SHBG levels in the body....
> 
> Other factors by week 6 or 7 could be down regulation of receptor sites or possible 'pathway burnout' (pathway from receptor to cell)
> 
> ...


Nice post.

SHBG isnt usually an issue during a cycle as there will be more free test anyway due to the shear volume of the test you are taking.

Elivations in estrogen can cause SHBG to elivate along with even nolva, but because you are taking in up to 3 to 5 times the normal endogenous values you will have more free test anyay.

Free testosterone is a test all in itself, you dont calculate SHBG with total test to get free testestosterone, other things bind to testosterone like ablumin(sp).

I take an AI during my cycle which would lower estrogen, which would also lower SHBG, which would lower water retention but I swear it helps me keep the nuts rolling along better with the use of HCG.

I dont use alot of adex, just enough for estrogen management, after all you need some estrogen.

I dont really know why gains stall, guess you could go the crazy route and change up compounds to try and keep gaining, but to me this seems reckless.

Or, up the dose again till gains start comming back. But again I see this as reckless because now the body is used to running on higher androgens, once you lower/taper, you will get symptoms of a crash, or do a PCT and probably crash.

I dont like saying this to encourage young guys to do cycles, but I swear they grow way faster than the older guys on gear, hell, recover faster too.

When I was in my 20's I did some cycles of deca, anavar, winstrol, and made huge gains with so little you could not believe. I think I was doing 200mg of deca a week and making monster gains.

Hell, 200mg of deca now would only shut me down and all gains would be lost...lol

Anavar back then was 2.5mg for pharma stuff, I think I was taking like 2 or 3 tabs a day and making gains, hell chicks take more than that....lol

Maybe it is the diffrence from pharma and underground, I dont know.

Anyway, SHBG is not a problem, if you are worried about it at all, drop some proviron or something....lol

I am on cycle right now but very low dose test and very low mast.

250 test and 100 mast E. My brother commented yesterday that my shoulders looked bigger.

But, I started my cycle when my endogenous tesosterone was at the very bottom of the base values. A test before they wanted to put me on TRT.

I feel that due to me being so low this small cycle is working well.

If I had been in the upper range I think it would not work as well with such low amounts......not sure really.

Sorry to hyjack your thread woodie.


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

TH&S said:


> How do you calculate your free test from the above Woody...?
> 
> When you say your strength has stopped can you be more specific...?
> 
> ...


I use this site to calculate my free T http://www.issam.ch/freetesto.htm

My strength has slowed down in the amount i can lift. I am still lifting the same weights what i was lifting after week 6.

The 5 lbs seems to have gone on in 1 week as i was 13st 11 the week before.


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

*Day 59*

Well i have to say my last shot on Sunday ****ing kills! my leg is throbbing! so have dosed up on painkillers. I weighed in at 13st 10lbs which is a big drop of over 6lbs in just over 6 days, i think this is due to the AI i have been taking...to be honest i think i over did it with the AI as yesterday i felt aching in all my joints and felt weak and my libido seems to have gone right down.

So i have stopped the AI for a while until i feel better.

I must say i do look a lot leaner than what i was before, not just from the lack of water but actual fat loss.

This makes me think even more i should take advantage of this and follow the 4 week VLCD as i don't think i am going to gain anymore lean mass.

I am happy with the androgenic effects as i seem to have be able to grow a full beard where as before this cycle it was spatial...the only bit which isnt nice is the big spots that appear on my chest and back.

here is the study: http://www.jacn.org/cgi/content/full/18/2/115

Ooo another thing i have noticed is i am sweating so much in my sleep i wake up soaked in sweat...anyone else noticed this?


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## Tall (Aug 14, 2007)

cwoody123 said:


> I use this site to calculate my free T http://www.issam.ch/freetesto.htm
> 
> My strength has slowed down in the amount i can lift. I am still lifting the same weights what i was lifting after week 6.
> 
> The 5 lbs seems to have gone on in 1 week as i was 13st 11 the week before.


Did you periodise your training while on cycle...?

I don't think a 4 week VLCD will make the difference that you are hoping it will...


----------



## beequeth (Mar 8, 2007)

cwoody123 said:


> Ooo another thing i have noticed is i am sweating so much in my sleep i wake up soaked in sweat...anyone else noticed this?


Its quite normal with test mate. I also found Deca gave me night sweats to the point, that the bed matress was still damp 10 hours later !!


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

TH&S said:


> Did you <layer id="google-toolbar-hilite-0" style="background-color: Yellow; color: black;">periodise</layer> your training while on cycle...?
> 
> I don't think a 4 week VLCD will make the difference that you are hoping it will...


Sorry to sound a bit stupid but what does "<layer id="google-toolbar-hilite-1" style="background-color: Yellow; color: black;">periodise</layer> your training" actually mean?

So what you are saying is if i lost 20-30lbs with almost none of it being LBM then i would not be happy with the results. I disagree lol

I have personally seen someday follow such a diet which had even less nutrition... and a much more unplanned exercise routine, i slated this guy that it would not work and he would just burn away his muscle. 5 months later he was looking great with from what i can see no massive amount of muscle loss.

I am not saying starving yourself is the way to go but i do feel this might fit in well to the end of my cycle.


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

beequeth said:


> Its quite normal with test mate. I also found Deca gave me night sweats to the point, that the bed matress was still damp 10 hours later !!


This is good to know...thanks!


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## Tall (Aug 14, 2007)

cwoody123 said:


> Sorry to sound a bit stupid but what does "<LAYER id=google-toolbar-hilite-1 style="COLOR: black; BACKGROUND-COLOR: yellow">periodise</LAYER> your training" actually mean?
> 
> So what you are saying is if i lost 20-30lbs with almost none of it being LBM then i would not be happy with the results. I disagree lol
> 
> ...


No I'm saying a 4 week diet won't be long enough for you.

Also the people on that diet were approx 44% BF, and regardless of the training used they all ended up at 37% (or whatever the figure was)

Periodise your training means a number of weeks of intensity, a period of deloading and rest and then repeating.


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## Cookie (Sep 14, 2009)

cwoody123 said:


> Sorry to sound a bit stupid but what does "<LAYER id=google-toolbar-hilite-1 style="COLOR: black; BACKGROUND-COLOR: yellow">periodise</LAYER> your training" actually mean?


Are you actually being serious here?

And your taking drugs????????????

mg: :jaw:

Thought I would read for a laugh and I sure got that. (Insert PMSL smilie)


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

Well i could see how things go and then based on the results i could either follow the same protocol again or follow another plan.

fat percentage (C+D: 44.5±7.0 to 37.1±6.0, R+D: 46.2±6.8 to 37.6±4.8) i can't really read these things but to me that looks like around 9% body fat loss. Probably wrong thou!

My routine looks like this:

Week 1-2 progressive overload.

Week 3 Volume training (lighter weights higher reps)

Week 4 Progressive overload.

Week 5 = off

I added the week off only recently but i really think it helps me progress.


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

ONE SMART COOKIE said:


> Are you actually being serious here?
> 
> And your taking drugs????????????
> 
> ...


LOL i was waiting for this kind of post...well done cookie monster!


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## Cookie (Sep 14, 2009)

cwoody123 said:


> LOL i was waiting for this kind of post...well done cookie monster!


Well hopefully you`ll heed the post and do more research on the subject as I have said in the past, your situation could easily be remedied minus the drugs for muscle gain & fatloss and the drugs are just an easier solution to a problem that has troubled you for a long time...

& its MR Cookie Monster


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

ONE SMART COOKIE said:


> Well hopefully you`ll heed the post and do more research on the subject as I have said in the past, your situation could easily be remedied minus the drugs for muscle gain & fatloss and the drugs are just an easier solution to a problem that has troubled you for a long time...
> 
> & its MR Cookie Monster


The reason it has troubled me for a long time is because i have been ill and if i want to use drugs to help treat it then i will...i am not going to get into this discussion with you again mate.


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## Cookie (Sep 14, 2009)

cwoody123 said:


> The reason it has troubled me for a long time is because *i have been ill* and if i want to use drugs to help treat it then i will...*i am not going to get into this discussion with you again mate.*


*Which you wave around like a banner*

*You don`t have to, but I feel it is my duty as an individual who has had a lot of experiances to point out flaws when I see them so that others can be fully informed from more than just 1 or 2 opinions.*

*It is an *open* forum so I can post if I feel the need to and if others want to debate this with me then they can either here or in pms.*


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Ok, lets not hyjack his thread here guys.

Night sweats?...................Totally, some gear way more than others and for sure dose dependant.

On the VLCD diet, you do no training what so ever, the body is going to use alot of the minerals and vitamins trapped in the fat, also you wont need to exercise and will lose between a half a pound and a pound a day.

My Girlfriend is on it right now.

It was the only thing she could do to lose weight.

On another note, you can do something like the zone diet and lose just fine, but it wont be as fast, but it will work well.


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## Cookie (Sep 14, 2009)

hackskii said:


> Ok, lets not hyjack his thread here guys.


So posting up concerns is classed as hijacking?

MMMM smacks of censorship to me..............!!!!!!!


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

Yea what am i thinking you must have new everything before you started chucking steroids down your neck big fella.

*I wave having an illness around like a banner!*

That is because it is applicable to my situation and aims mate, you have every right to make comments on this public board but insinuating that i know **** all because i didn't know the term for one little piece of training is pretty much an insult in my book.

So watch me fall on my face and make a prat of myself...at least then you can point at me out to all those people following your advice following a completely medically untested low dbol cycle and make them think you are the master of the universe.


----------



## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

hackskii said:


> Ok, lets not hyjack his thread here guys.
> 
> Night sweats?...................Totally, some gear way more than others and for sure dose dependant.
> 
> ...


i think the idea of the resistance training is to stimulate your body to hold onto the muscle and also to keep your metabolism from crashing. I will have a look tonight at the zone diet.

Is your girlfriend taking HCG?


----------



## irwit (Mar 29, 2007)

I bet theres alot of info in this thread once Im done translating all this VLCD, LH, FSH and all the other acronyms in there. Cheers for sharing.

If you are admitting your not really gaining anymore are you not tempted to get out while you can.

Are you sure your not going to be carrying on for no real gain but 4 more weeks of unwanted sides? More spots, bad sleep, longer ammount of time shutdown etc...


----------



## Tall (Aug 14, 2007)

hackskii said:


> Ok, lets not hyjack his thread here guys.
> 
> Night sweats?...................Totally, some gear way more than others and for sure dose dependant.
> 
> ...


The study woody has shows 4kg LBM loss on VLCD + Cardio over 12 weeks.

On VLCD + Resistance training 1kg of LBM was gained over 12 weeks.

VLCD + Nothing? I'd guess at some LBM loss - more so in leaner individuals than fatter ones.


----------



## Tall (Aug 14, 2007)

cwoody123 said:


> Well i could see how things go and then based on the results i could either follow the same protocol again or follow another plan.
> 
> fat percentage (C+D:* 44.5±7.0 to 37.1*±6.0, R+D: *46.2±6.8 to 37.6*±4.8) i can't really read these things but to me that looks like around 9% body fat loss. Probably wrong thou!
> 
> ...


Yeah so 9% on VLCD + Resistance training.

Bear in mind that all studies need to be taken with a pinch of salt.

They placed the fatter group on VLCD + Resistance training. And the leaner group on VLCD + Cardio.

What if the groups were reversed? While I would expect the LBM increase to be similar, would the fat loss have been the same...?

Personally I wouldn't do a VLCD. Think of how grumpy you'll be.

I'd do a TKD. Cookie has me on one now. I'm getting leaner and stronger each week.

I have my training partner on one. He's made huge improvements in 2.5 weeks. He's gone from having a spare tire around his mid section to being able to see his spinae erector V when pumped after deads. He can now see his Quad/Ham split. His chest has gone from being flat to having some definition under his pecs.

His deads are rocketing up each week.

Food for thought.


----------



## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

cwoody123 said:


> i think the idea of the resistance training is to stimulate your body to hold onto the muscle and also to keep your metabolism from crashing. I will have a look tonight at the zone diet.
> 
> Is your girlfriend taking HCG?


My girlfriend is taking the HCG for the VLCD diet. Nothing works for her to inspire her.

Trust me, it has to be something for her to want to do something.......Placebo or something she believes in......It is cool bro, what ever makes her happy so I dont have to wear her insecutities.....lol

I should not have to but anyway, it is easier for me.....lol

VLCD diets are not to be used with reisistance training, read up on this one mate.

Zone diet on the other hand would work well with resistance training.

It is up to you.

You have all the cards to play at your deal. All depends on what "YOU" wan't to do................................You are the man of your life.................It is all about you.....................

Screw the people that dont know about your condition.

Screw those that just dont understand.

You are a smart kid.

You have a good grasp on things.

Trust me I understand what it was that did the damage to you, I also understand fully what you are trying to do and bro.........I support you 100%, if there is anything that you would like to know, give a PM to me. I wont rip into you, I wont give you sh!t, I will give you truth, but I understand totally mate...........Go for it.................................You desirve it, and it is owed to you.................Time is waisting bro.........................:cool:


----------



## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

irwit said:


> I bet theres alot of info in this thread once Im done translating all this <layer id="google-toolbar-hilite-0" style="background-color: Yellow; color: black;">VLCD</layer>, LH, FSH and all the other acronyms in there. Cheers for sharing.
> 
> If you are admitting your not really gaining anymore are you not tempted to get out while you can.
> 
> Are you sure your not going to be carrying on for no real gain but 4 more weeks of unwanted sides? More spots, bad sleep, longer ammount of time shutdown etc...


Yea i suppose it can all get a bit confusing...to me the acronyms are second nature now...to the point of forgetting the actual bloody names lol

I was tempted but to be honest but apart from the spots, sweats i feel fairly good on test, my brain feels sharp, high libido. Plus i am getting androgenic benefits that would have probably taken a year or so to get naturally.

I don't think it will effect being shutdown to much as i already am fully shutdown so that should not be an issue. I have one more shot on Sunday and that is it...i will have to leave 2 weeks and then i start PCT.


----------



## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

TH&S said:


> Yeah so 9% on VLCD + Resistance training.
> 
> Bear in mind that all studies need to be taken with a pinch of salt.
> 
> ...


I know the study is probably not 100% accurate but it does give a good indication that you can stop or at the very least minimize muscle loss to the bare minimum.

TKD...that is another ketonic <layer id="google-toolbar-hilite-2" style="background-color: Cyan; color: black;">diet</layer> with timed carbs in the morning and after training right? when i did Atkins i felt like ****! would this not have a similar effect?


----------



## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

TH&S said:


> Yeah so 9% on VLCD + Resistance training.
> 
> Bear in mind that all studies need to be taken with a pinch of salt.
> 
> ...


I know the study is probably not 100% accurate but it does give a good indication that you can stop or at the very least minimize muscle loss to the bare minimum.

<layer id="google-toolbar-hilite-1" style="background-color: Yellow; color: black;">TKD</layer>...that is another ketonic <layer id="google-toolbar-hilite-3" style="background-color: Cyan; color: black;">diet</layer> right with timed carbs in the morning and after training? when i did Atkins i felt like ****! would this not have a similar effect?


----------



## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

hackskii said:


> My girlfriend is taking the HCG for the VLCD diet. Nothing works for her to inspire her.
> 
> Trust me, it has to be something for her to want to do something.......Placebo or something she believes in......It is cool bro, what ever makes her happy so I dont have to wear her insecutities.....lol
> 
> ...


I have found that so much with women...My mum does 50 sit ups every morning in the belief that it will give her a flat tummy...I am itching to scream at her but i know it helps as a placebo to give her more determination to stick to her diet.

The Zone diet seems appealing...the thing with the Zone diet from what i read is about trying to balance hormones for optimal fat loss. It is sort of low carb without being ketonic.

Thanks for the support mate, it is good to know that some one who knows the condition can understand what i have been through and not just look at my pictures and make idiotic remarks. I will be sure to call upon your advice and share my Blood test results with ya :beer1:


----------



## Tall (Aug 14, 2007)

hackskii said:


> VLCD diets are not to be used with reisistance training, read up on this one mate.


Some studies for you mate:



> 1: Int J Obes. 1989;13 Suppl 2:119-23.Links
> 
> Selection of appropriate exercise regimens for weight reduction during VLCD and maintenance.Lemons AD, Kreitzman SN, Coxon A, Howard A.
> 
> ...





> 1: J Am Coll Nutr. 1999 Apr;18(2):115-21. Links
> 
> Effects of resistance vs. aerobic training combined with an 800 calorie liquid diet on lean body mass and resting metabolic rate.Bryner RW, Ullrich IH, Sauers J, Donley D, Hornsby G, Kolar M, Yeater R.
> 
> ...


I'm in no way advocating a VLCD. Personally I think its too extreme.

Gavin had a good insight on it, which I would agree with (apart from the fact I obviously don't like VLCDs)



Wee G said:


> Nothing wrong with vlcd's per se, as long as steps are taken to preserve LBM as the study notes. So, go for it BUT look out for...
> 
> Enough resistance exercise to preserve LBM.
> 
> ...


----------



## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

TH&S said:


> Some studies for you mate:
> 
> I'm in no way advocating a VLCD. Personally I think its too extreme.
> 
> Gavin had a good insight on it, which I would agree with (apart from the fact I obviously don't like VLCDs)


Thanks for taking the time to find those bud...i think i am going to look at a few alternative diets that you guys were talking about after all...i am still tempted thou as i think my results would be more benefital as i would still be anabolic up to 3 weeks into the diet.

thanks for the input in any case :beer1:


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

In regards to that 800 calories study i found this science board which argues it...God made my brain hurt!

http://www.groupsrv.com/science/about129763-0-asc-0.html


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## Tall (Aug 14, 2007)

cwoody123 said:


> In regards to that 800 calories study i found this science board which argues it...God made my brain hurt!
> 
> http://www.groupsrv.com/science/about129763-0-asc-0.html


Just looks like a load of pub lads arguing...

LBM increase was minimal, the point of adding the resistance training was to reduce any loss in LBM.

Woody I still think you should look at another diet. You really want to do a body re-comp. Get leaner while getting stronger and laying down some muscle.


----------



## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Cookie and Sam.

If you have nothing nice to say, then say nothing.

This thread is his journal and he has made the decision.

I dont think you guys understand the big picture here.

I wont go into detail here why I support him but you guys are out of order.

I will delete any post that negativly attacks woody on his journal, that goes for everyone.


----------



## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

cwoody123, love your journal and have been following it for a while. Just haven't said much, but I truly support what you are doing and wish you the best of luck!

If I was delt your deck of cards, I would have taken the same path mate.


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## fits (Feb 3, 2004)

so hows it all gong? any before and after/during pics yet?


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

winger said:


> cwoody123, love your journal and have been following it for a while. Just haven't said much, but I truly support what you are doing and wish you the best of luck!
> 
> If I was delt your deck of cards, I would have taken the same path mate.


Thanks mate


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

fits said:


> so hows it all gong? any before and after/during pics yet?


Yea things are good mate. I feel really good at the mow. Getting a bit spotty but other than that i can't complain.

Just about to inject my last shot after i finish this post. I will post some pics up in about 4 weeks.


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## fits (Feb 3, 2004)

cwoody123 said:


> Yea things are good mate. I feel really good at the mow. Getting a bit spotty but other than that i can't complain.
> 
> Just about to inject my last shot after i finish this post. I will post some pics up in about 4 weeks.


 Look forward to seeng them. Has there been a big change? not followed your whole journal so im not sure of your stats.


----------



## irwit (Mar 29, 2007)

cwoody123 said:


> Getting a bit spotty but other than that i can't complain..


Get to pharmacy and get anything with benzol peroxide in it. Its basically a mild bleech but only substance that actually kills the infection. Get a 2.5 one to start with. Make sure you go pharamcy and get unbranded otherswise its expensive! Apply morning and night after a shower. Keep it off your cloths as its a bleech! Youll need a decent moisturiser aswell as its drys your skin out alot initially.


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

fits said:


> Look forward to seeng them. Has there been a big change? not followed your whole journal so im not sure of your stats.


I would not say the change is massive...i am certainly lifting more. i think once the puffiness has settled down i will see more of the results. The main thing i notice is the androgenic results. I know have a full beard where as before it was spatial. I also have noticed fat loss particularly on my buttocks legs.


----------



## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

irwit said:


> Get to pharmacy and get anything with benzol peroxide in it. Its basically a mild bleech but only substance that actually kills the infection. Get a 2.5 one to start with. Make sure you go pharamcy and get unbranded otherswise its expensive! Apply morning and night after a shower. Keep it off your cloths as its a bleech! Youll need a decent moisturiser aswell as its drys your skin out alot initially.


Ah it doesn't bother me to much...not long and they will be gone. As long as they aren't there during the summer when i have to look beautiful then i don't mind 

Good info none the less :beer1:


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## riga (Feb 8, 2008)

great thread cwoody!! Be good to see your results mate. I'll be starting a similar cycle sust250(250ml per week) for ten week and dbol to kick start @ 30mg ed for 4 weeks. Cwoody take it you would recommend jabbing your quad?? Again great thread.


----------



## Tall (Aug 14, 2007)

riga said:


> great thread cwoody!! Be good to see your results mate. I'll be starting a similar cycle sust250(250ml per week) for ten week and dbol to kick start @ 30mg ed for 4 weeks. Cwoody take it you would recommend jabbing your quad?? Again great thread.


You're starting another cycle already...???

You can't be long finished your Oxy & Dbol cycle!


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## riga (Feb 8, 2008)

I was only enquiring as to what you guys thought about the cycle, and from the replies I got decided against it. Im currently free, pct finished and waiting to start new cycle. Training going good and diet is better than before so looking forward to this cycle. Anyone offer any advice or should I start another thread???


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

TH&S said:


> You're starting another cycle already...???
> 
> You can't be long finished your Oxy & Dbol cycle!


I see you don't mis much do you....lol


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## Tall (Aug 14, 2007)

Woody what were your Squat and Dead at the start of the cycle and then again at the end dude?


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

TH&S said:


> Woody what were your Squat and Dead at the start of the cycle and then again at the end dude?


Good question, bump for the Woodmiester.


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

riga said:


> great thread cwoody!! Be good to see your results mate. I'll be starting a similar cycle sust250(250ml per week) for ten week and dbol to kick start @ 30mg ed for 4 weeks. Cwoody take it you would recommend jabbing your quad?? Again great thread.


Thanks mate. I had real trouble injecting my Glute...must be my fat ****!


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

TH&S said:


> Woody what were your Squat and Dead at the start of the cycle and then again at the end dude?


Although i don't like giving out how much i lift i will tell ya. I started out deadlifting about 100kg and can now do 140kg (when i remember my bloody chalk!)

Before the cycle i was squatting 80kg and now i can do 100kg...the problem i had was the injection site in my quad would cane some weeks so i found it hard to do squats let alone improve them. This is something i want to concentrate more on naturally.

I am working hard in the gym still with the help of ephedrine as i have been on a diet for the last 14 days, i have to say i have noticed no strength loss, and my body is showing more definition.

Pictures at the end of PCT should show the full result.


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

*Update*

Well it is my first day of Clomid today @ 100mg...nuts are already a descent size from the HCG...speaking of HCg i lowerd my dose of 500ui e3d to 350ui e3d days as i think it was a little to much and i don't want to take any chances fooking up my Leydig cells.

*Diet*

I have been on a diet for 2 1/2 weeks now and here are my results:

Before diet:

Weight 13st 11lbs

Now 12st 13lbs

Measurements:

*24/03/08* Chest 41" , Waist 38", Hips/bum 41", Quads R25" L24", Bicep R15" L14.5"

*13/04/08* Chest 40", Waist 36", Hips/bum 39", Quads R24" L23", Bicep R14.5" L14.5"

All measurements were done with Myotape so should be fairly accurate. I will measure again in week1/2

*
Gym*

Strength has remained in the gym...to keep intensity i take ephedrine 1hr before my work out which helps no end.

So far i am very happy with the results of the cut.


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

What does your workout look like post cycle?


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

Same as bulking mate.


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

* 30/04/08 Just a quick note*

Been on Clomid now for 14 days. To be honest i feel really ****! My mind is all foggy and i get episodes where i want to rip peoples heads off. Strange as i never really felt like this on PCT...well maybe a little last time.

i will be dropping my dose from tomorrow so hopefully i should feel better


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

Rage while post cycle, interesting. I would have thought the opposite.

I hope you start to feel better mate!


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

I would stay the course.....

If clomid works like you want to rip peoples faces off, this is androgen related......

lol

Take some Vitamin E and some Zinc bro............lol

You go killer...........


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

Hmmm i don't think it is androgen related as winger suggested surely i would have felt the same aggressiveness on T...i felt happy as larry on test to be honest...my mind was actually bloody sharp by the end of my cycle!

I have heard some people can get get moody and emotional on clomid...i dunno maybe its my body missing all that test floating around.

I am not proud of my over reaction but my girlfriend noticed it...we were driving up to Sandown race course and there was a car behind me and it beeped for no reason...so as she pulled up beside she said "move over" in a really aggressive voice just to try to make her self look like it was not her fault that she jumped the light...anyway i just exploded and shouted "FCUK YOU!" without even thinking about it...her husband was in the passenger seat and did a mocking laugh...which just made me even more furious and i proceeded to try to jump out of my car in traffic to haul his **** out of his seat and wipe that smile off his face...luckily my girlfriend held me back and they drove off, but i really think i would have stepped toe to toe with him over some frankly that was not worth bothering with.

My girlfriend said she has never seen me like that and i must admit nor have i until now.

I take zinc already...Vitamin E or Just the E bit might be a good idea lol

GGRRRrrrrrr


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

I get like that when I drive. I really hate stupid drivers, but for the most part I can control it.

I am glad you didn't rearrange the guys face.

Just try to observe yourself from outside your body and you will get a better incite of yourself.

I really do believe that test levels swing back and fourth after a cycle while the body is trying to adjust, I have no proof though.

I don't do gear buy my twin does..


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## miller25 (Apr 22, 2007)

Clomid has strange effects, I always feel like going into tears.


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

Yea i know people get ratty when there hormones change that may be a factor and also clomid maybe binding to some receptor in the brain that makes you cry when watching bambies mum die!


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## beequeth (Mar 8, 2007)

Its down to the hormone imbalance mate. The high levels of test in your system are / have faded away. For me that always means mood swings, and a generally unsettled feeling.

Stick with it, you should bounce back


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Clomid is a agonist and antagonist to estrogen, it is no surprise funny things can happen.


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

Well this is my last week of Clomid so tappering down now. Nuts feel full and in good shape.

Got acne like i never had before thou.

Pics come next week


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

cwoody123 said:


> *Update*
> 
> Well it is my first day of Clomid today @ 100mg...nuts are already a descent size from the HCG...speaking of HCg i lowerd my dose of 500ui e3d to 350ui e3d days as i think it was a little to much and i don't want to take any chances fooking up my Leydig cells.
> 
> ...


*..................................................................................*

*
*

*
**18/05/2008*

*
*Chest 37" , Waist 34", Hips/bum 37.5", Quads R23.5" L22.5", Bicep R14.5" L14"

*12st 3lbs*

*
*

*
*

*
Pics tmoz*

*
*


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

Ok here are my Post PCT pics...i do seem to be holding a little more water than usual...this is probably due to my lack of H20 intake over the last few days

...Be gentle!!

*Before*










*After*


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## Mr Brown (Mar 20, 2007)

Mate it's coming!

Fair play! Been reading your logs for a while and you're making some good sensible progress I think!


----------



## MXD (Jan 23, 2008)

It most certainly is!, That front shot in particular, keep it up man, great work :thumbup1:


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Much better mate, much better.

Cortisone shots will flatten that keloid scar and lighten the color of it, but I hear it hurts like hell though.


----------



## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

Thanks Gents!

I am pretty proud of my self for getting rid of the body fat...i think that is the real difference. This carb cycling is working wonders for me, dare i say it even better than VLCD!

I have 3 weeks until my holiday so hopefully i can trim a little more and you never know i may get a little abbigge poking through!

My scar has actually got a lot lighter in the last 4 months...and most of the time it is hidden under my clothes...i don't really mind people seeing it as its my battle wound lol

The cortisone injections sound like fun but i think i will leave it for a little while longer and see how it goes ;-)


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## bigacb (Nov 13, 2007)

Youve definatly come on loads mate. Keep it up.


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

Good job Woodie, keep up the good work.


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## irwit (Mar 29, 2007)

Can you post weight and measurements before and after cycle. Also a quick recap or exactly what you did during the cycle. You certainly look alot leaner, shoulders look alot better aswell.


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## Robbyg (Feb 25, 2008)

Woody you look great the tranformation is amazing you certainly have work hard mate well done and keep it up mate


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

irwit said:


> Can you post weight and measurements before and after cycle. Also a quick recap or exactly what you did during the cycle. You certainly look alot leaner, shoulders look alot better aswell.


All data should be in the diary somewhere...i will do a conclusion when i get a chance.

Thanks for all you comments, they will spure me on for my last 3 weeks! :beer:


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

O yea forgot 2 mention...in the last 3 days i have had stonking boners in the morning and last night i tried to sleep hump the misses...apparently i flipped her over and tried to got at it until she told me to fcuk off! lol


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## Mr Brown (Mar 20, 2007)

LOL!

ungrateful.


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## irwit (Mar 29, 2007)

cwoody123 said:


> All data should be in the diary somewhere...i will do a conclusion when i get a chance.
> 
> Thanks for all you comments, they will spure me on for my last 3 weeks! :beer:


15 pages mate !!!


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

Ok i will dig through and get the info ;-)


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

*I have tried to calculate the info as accurate as possible however some of the weights are estimates as i never wrote them down for that week...but you get the idea!*

*Reading this back i think a lot of people have got an apology to make!...you know who you are! lol I got a lot of stick for what i have done and i have not only proved myself right but all the people who gave good advice on this forum!*

*Week 1 *

Weight: 12st 8lbs

Calories:3000

Gear: Test E 500mg EW-- Tbol 40mg ED

Meds: HCG 500ui 2x EW

Week 2

Weight: 12st 12lbs

Calories:3500

Gear: Test E 500mg EW-- Tbol 40mg ED

Meds: HCG 500ui 2x EW

Week 3

Weight: 13st 5lbs

Calories:3500

Gear: Test E 500mg EW -- Tbol 40mg ED

Meds: HCG 500ui 2x EW










Week 4

Weight: 13st 11 lbs

Calories:4000

Gear: Test E 500mg EW -- Tbol 40mg ED

Meds: HCG 500ui 2x EW

Measurements: Chest 41" , Waist 38", Hips/bum 41", Quads R25" L24", Bicep R15" L

Week 5

Weight: 12st 8lbs

Calories: 4000

Gear: Test E 500mg EW

Meds: HCG 350ui 2x EW

Week 6

Weight: 13st 11lbs

Calories:4000

Gear: Test E 500mg EW

Meds: HCG 350ui 2x EW

Week 7

Weight: 13st 13lbs

Calories:4500

Gear: Test E 500mg EW

Meds: HCG 350ui 2x EW

Bloods:

LH < 1.0 (1-10)

FSH <1.0 (1-10)

Testosterone + > 55.5 (10 - 40)

Estrodial 455 (<80)

Albumin 39 (34-48)

SHBG 14 (13-71)

Prolactin 66 (0-400)

Week 8

Weight: 13st 11lbs

Calories:4500

Gear: Test E 500mg EW

Meds: HCG 350ui 2x EW

Week 9

Weight: 13st 11lbs

Calories:1000

Gear: Test E 500mg EW

Meds: HCG 350ui 2x EW , 30mg Chest eze Each training day

Week 10

Weight: 13st 4 lbs

Calories:1000

Gear: Test E 500mg EW

Meds: HCG 350ui 2x EW , 30mg Chest eze Each training day

Week 11

Weight: 13st 0lbs

Calories:1000

Meds: HCG 350ui 2x EW , 30mg Chest eze Each training day

Week 12

Weight: 12st 10 lbs

Calories:1000

Meds: HCG 350ui 2x EW , 30mg Chest eze Each training day

Measurements: Chest 40", Waist 36", Hips/bum 39", Quads R24" L23", Bicep R14.5" L14.5"

Week 13

Weight: 12st 9 lbs

Calories:1000

Meds/PCT: HCG 350ui 2x EW --- Clomid 100mg ED , 30mg Chest eze Each training day

Week 14

Weight: 12st 8 lbs

Calories:2000 Carb cycling

Meds/PCT: Clomid 100mg ED , 30mg Chest eze Each training day

Week 15

Weight: 12st 6 lbs

Calories:2000 Carb cycling

Meds/PCT: Clomid 50mg ED , 30mg Chest eze Each training day

Week 16

Weight: 12st 3 lbs

Calories:2000 Carb cycling

Meds/PCT: Clomid 25mg ED , 30mg Chest eze Each training day

Measurements: Chest 37" , Waist 34", Hips/bum 37.5", Quads R23.5" L22.5", Bicep R14.5" L14"


----------



## samurai691436114498 (Jan 6, 2005)

> Reading this back i think a lot of people have got an apology to make!...you know who you are! lol I got a lot of stick for what i have done and i have not only proved myself right but all the people who gave good advice on this forum!


NOT FROM ME YOU WONT!!!


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

That's good mate...At least we know you can't admit it when your wrong which makes your advice much less credible as you are a simply...a mister right!


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## tony1401 (Mar 8, 2008)

cwoody....ive just read this whole facinating thread for the first time, and wanna give you a high five mate, well done


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## thestudbeast (Jul 20, 2007)

Sorry I must of missed this what great point do you think you've proved with this journal?


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

tony1401 said:


> cwoody....ive just read this whole facinating thread for the first time, and wanna give you a high five mate, well done


Thanks for that mate...Its good to know their are people out there who are not biased and give merit where merit is due!!

There are some very bitter people out their who think that their way is the only way...It got so bad that their posts had to be deleted by the moderators due to fact that they just became verbal attacks...but hey with a bit of hard work and the right focus i have achieved my goals so i am happy 

So onwards and upwards to the next chapter!.... :beer:


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## samurai691436114498 (Jan 6, 2005)

cwoody123 said:


> That's good mate...At least we know you can't admit it when your wrong which makes your advice much less credible as you are a simply...a mister right!


where do you get off with this B0ll0cks................what sort of jumped up **** are you

this whole thread/journal has been total sh1te and you are a total tw4t with some reall hanups and issues.................

hacks has been a total **** as usual and you sound like the typical junkie....justiying your need for a fix

i have never been against AAs and came here looking for info..............but YOU are the typical " Junkie AAs Idiot" that BB.com and other sites seem to adore

if you live to your 50s..............congratulations...........if not..............well TBH its your own fault so no sympathy for you what so ever.............. your partner, family and kids/parents...............them i feel sorry for



> *D (bol) Day 6th June *( 1 2 3 4 5 ... Last Page)
> 
> samurai69 23-05-2008 07:52 PM
> 
> by dogs32 *697 Posts**, ** 43,771 visits*Steroid and Testosterone information


.


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

Another idiotic outburst designed to stain my progress...  other people seem to think i have done really well so why can't you?

I am not jumped up and yes i am insecure...but i have come along way. But i am in no way the image you just painted!

And as i told you before i can justify the use of these drugs a hell of a lot more than you!

And why would i not live until i am 50...is that because of all these nasty steroids i am putting into my body??

Anyway you don't even need to answer the above as your post has completely highlighted your intent lol


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

samurai69 said:


> hacks has been a total **** as usual


Why do you drag me into this?

Ive asked you to play nicely and you refuse to do so.

I didnt flame you.

This is uncalled for.


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## tony1401 (Mar 8, 2008)

happy dayz


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## Robbyg (Feb 25, 2008)

WOW this is getting heavy ........


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

Silly silly stuff...Hacks can you delete these posts that are pointless to my diary?


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## Jimmy_Cricket (Aug 3, 2006)

....


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## TaintedSoul (May 16, 2007)

samurai69 said:


> * hacks has been a total **** as usual *


Why the need to flame Hackski?


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## Jimmy1 (Aug 14, 2003)

whats your grief with hacks sam?

seems a bit uncalled for


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## irwit (Mar 29, 2007)

Right ... take this either way, its not a flame or anything.

First off from 1st picture to last picture GREAT improvement mate, totally new body !!! You should be really proud.

However ...

Looking at your beginning and ending stats I would of thought there would be a much better change of numbers. Yes you have lost fat but its only really 4 inchs off your waist which is great but you have lost size allover. also your weight has dropped 5lbs. I know you have lost fat which loses weight and will have gained muscle but I really dont think the transformation pictures from start to finish really justify the 500mg of test a week. This is JMO but to put my body through that for that change just wouldnt be worth it. So to start tell people they owe you an apology for advising you against the steroids is pretty bold. No point posting in an open forum if you are going to demand apologies off people who advise against what you think.

Just my 2 pence, great change, very impressive but personally I think the advice to not take was right.


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## Andy Dee (Jun 1, 2008)

cwoody123 said:


> Good afternoon all,
> 
> Some of you maybe aware of my previous TBOL, DBOL diaries. I have learnt a lot from these cycles...Good & Bad!
> 
> ...


looks good apart from maybe the tbol as it takes about 4 weeks to kick in, which is not far from when the test would start to kick in anyway, bascially your gonna stop taking the tbol in 4weeks time when it actually takes around that time to kick in anyway. :whistling:

Dbol would have been better or stacking with prop, i would have probably bumped the tbol up to 80mgs daily too bro.


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

irwit said:


> Right ... take this either way, its not a flame or anything.
> 
> First off from 1st picture to last picture GREAT improvement mate, totally new body !!! You should be really proud.
> 
> ...


i think looking back i would have to admit i was steering the hornets nest a bit with that comment so i apologize...but i am very happy with my progress. The test has a major effect on my dieting period to help preserve lean mass hence the reason why i have have kept almost all my strength despite 2st weight loss.

500mg for me was great...i felt fantastic with what i would say was next to no side effects, every one will react differently to drugs and dosages but for me 500mg was fine.

Prostate is fine.

HPTA has fully bounced back...Blood work soon will confirm this but i know from the way i feel its all good.

Liver values unchanged.

Libido back to normal.

Muscles are bigger and i am a lot leaner.

And guess what i am going to perform a similar cycle again with the edition of running Tbol for longer say round about 7 weeks. And i am also going to diet again at week 9.

I am a stubborn [email protected] as you probably have gathered by now lol


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

andysutils said:


> looks good apart from maybe the tbol as it takes about 4 weeks to kick in, which is not far from when the test would start to kick in anyway, bascially your gonna stop taking the tbol in 4weeks time when it actually takes around that time to kick in anyway. :whistling:
> 
> Dbol would have been better or stacking with prop, i would have probably bumped the tbol up to 80mgs daily too bro.


For me i felt Tbol effects after about 2 1/2 weeks...i will actually be running it for around 7 weeks next time along with Sustanon in the place of test E.

I never got on with Dbol...it seemed to have a very negative effect on me so will stick with Tbol.


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## Andy Dee (Jun 1, 2008)

cwoody123 said:


> For me i felt Tbol effects after about 2 1/2 weeks...i will actually be running it for around 7 weeks next time along with Sustanon in the place of test E.
> 
> I never got on with Dbol...it seemed to have a very negative effect on me so will stick with Tbol.


dbol didnt agree with me either, i dont really like orals, tbols anabolic and angrogen is much lower than dbol which is probably why its got far less sides, make sure you definetely protect your liver, just because tbols effects are much lower than dbol, its still highly toxic on the liver all the same.

the sust would be good next time round i think, i wouldnt even bother stacking it with an oral, if the tbol sets in after about 2 and half weeks like ya said, the sust will probably only take a few days to kick in cos of the prop in it.

your definetely did your homework, 500mg of test and tbol is a fab first cycle, i wouldnt suggest anything much different


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

yea i take plenty of milk thistle throughout. I created a post a few weeks a go on dbol...and to my surprise a lot of people didn't get on with it either!

I personally love running Tbol along side...it will also work in unison with the Test as Tbol's effects are largely not activated through the steroid receptors a as it is a class 2 steroid...this gives a 2 pronged attack. I think i read that it also lowers SHBG but i may be wrong!

Thanks for the input thou mate


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## remi (May 19, 2008)

woody i can remember you saying you got some flu like symptoms after your first shot of ethanate i am experiecing similar symptoms soreish throat and aches how long did they take you to subside and did they rea-merge again after following shots? thanks


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

3 days after the first shot then got less and less each time i shot by a day or so...if i remember correctly. I think my body was fighting a dodgy batch of Test thou after talking to others and reflecting on the pain i was getting after each jab.


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## fits (Feb 3, 2004)

cwoody123 said:


> 3 days after the first shot then got less and less each time i shot by a day or so...if i remember correctly. *I think my body was fighting a dodgy batch of Test thou after talking to others and reflecting on the pain i was getting after each jab*.


 Sounds Healthy :thumb: :thumbup1: :beer:


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

Scratch that..it was about 6 days first time then 3 days after each shot after that. Brain is frazzled from work!


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## Lux (Mar 23, 2006)

ok, you want pics to prove if i'm keyboard warrior or not? Plenty of people have seen them so its no bother posting my pics. I'm no beast and definately no warrior. Could definately be better but can't really be ****d lately


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

Cool cool...very lean! how much do you weigh? and what's your height? and drug history?


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## Lux (Mar 23, 2006)

cwoody123 said:


> Cool cool...very lean! how much do you weigh? and what's your height? and drug history?


Those pics are at 135lbs top, 140 mid and 144 end right. 5'7" and those pics were natty, just training with high volume and very short rests.

Admittidly i don't look as good now but thats because i can't be bothered to put in the required effort. Just after those pics i took time out and went kickboxing and unlicenced boxing. Don't bother with that after getting banned so training has been sliding and more into fishing.

Basically those pics are "glory days" shots. Something i can easily achieve again in 16 weeks of dedication. I know i'm not big and lots of room for improvement


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## EDG301 (Oct 18, 2005)

How long have you been training cwoody?


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

For what it is worth mate you got my respect for posting up your pics. Getting banned from unlicensed boxing!! you must be a psycho lol

Got any fighting vids?

At the moment i am obsessed with getting bigger and leaner...but i am sure there will be a point when i loose interest...but at the moment it is certainly an addictive pastime!


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

dan ellis said:


> How long have you been training cwoody?


About 3 years but only 1 1/2 years with testosterone.


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## Lux (Mar 23, 2006)

cwoody123 said:


> For what it is worth mate you got my respect for posting up your pics. Getting banned from unlicensed boxing!! you must be a psycho lol
> 
> Got any fighting vids?
> 
> At the moment i am obsessed with getting bigger and leaner...but i am sure there will be a point when i loose interest...but at the moment it is certainly an addictive pastime!


The unlicenced boxing was just something i had a bash at, i got banned from kickboxing because i did the boxing. If i was getting paid properly i might be tempted into the ring again.

Thanks for the respect mate, shame my mental health isn't right or i would be training properly.

Be happy, and be smart in your pursuit of the physique you desire. You will get to where you want to be, and probably want more :thumbup1:


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

All I can say is if I was gay or a chick Lux I would do ya......lol


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

...Now there is an offer you can't refuse!


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## remi (May 19, 2008)

cwoody123 said:



> Scratch that..it was about 6 days first time then 3 days after each shot after that. Brain is frazzled from work!


cheers fella just needed something to gauge it against, I feel really lerthaergic and unwell now but did a chest session earlier, after being rough and unable to sit down all weekend. totally supprised me, posted new pb's on flat and incline bench 5x5 which i found bizarre because even after doing a few sets i still felt ropey as hell, but suprisingly this did not effect strength. did you find this also?


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## EDG301 (Oct 18, 2005)

Truthfully, Don't you think you could have achieved this naturally? Looked at progression pics n i'm not putting you down or being arrogant, but i really do think you could have achieved the same, or maybe better results naturally. just my opinion though, i always think drugs should b a last resort, after all other boxes are ticked. Am 19 years old so may be biased as my test is still naturally high. welcome feedback


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## EDG301 (Oct 18, 2005)

Wats with the scar on stomach?


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Guys, woody was shut down for 10 years with a prolactin secreting tumor.

He had so low of test levels growing up that he could not have sex or had a serious problem having it.

He got short changed in the hormonal roll of the dice.

How would you guys feel if growing up as a young adult and could not have sex?

Guys, seriously I endourse his approach as he was fcuked out of many good years where his bonner would be put to use daily.

He has had many problems that are now sorted.

He is only or mearly trying to get back what he missed in his youth.

Good on him for doing so.

I would do the same thing if I was him.

The scar is from excess prolactin causing excessive belly fat as well as gyno.

Do you know anyone that got gyno from not taking steroids or non puberty gyno?

Dude was delt a bad hand of cards, it is not his fault, but he has to wear the aftermath.

I salute him in his endevers as a man to succeed what it is he is going after.


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## noturbo (Oct 27, 2006)

hackskii said:


> Guys, woody was shut down for 10 years with a prolactin secreting tumor.
> 
> He had so low of test levels growing up that he could not have sex or had a serious problem having it.
> 
> ...


Well said hackskii, and good job woody :thumb:


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

Then you had guys coming onto his thread and saying he wasn't training right....lol

I have an idea, don't read the guys journal and only look at his pics and bash him for taking steroids... :cursing:

No wonder Hackskii was so passionate about this journal.


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## EDG301 (Oct 18, 2005)

My Bad, got suspicious and wondered if this bloke always took the easy way out- this is obviously not the case so i respect the bloke for what he has gone through.

However, i personally would still not **** with my system if i had gone through this but if he is doing everything correctly and not playing russian roullete with his body thats fine.

Good luck in the future


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## fits (Feb 3, 2004)

He was definately delt a **** hand, but he is also an ass, and I think he would admit that himself. Wether it is a defensive thing due to having people not understand what he is doing and attacking him, or wether it is just him, there is no need for his attitude some times.

Do you think Hack, that woody could not have got to the stage he is at right now? I mean he is in allot better shape, no doubt about that, but he is very much an average build. Do you think this was unachievble for woody without AAS?

Each to their own, I would never have a go at any one dabbling with any drug, ****, I have done enough harm to my own body over the years with different things.

Forgive me for being lazy and not reading back but what did the docs say? if they though woody needed test would they not have him on HRT? maybe they do, as i say apologies for not reading back.


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## irwit (Mar 29, 2007)

I guess its a patience thing, as easy as it is to say he could achieve that result without the steroids it would have taken longer. Personally I would think his next cycle, not that I agree with having another cycle, should give better results. Its a great change but that was more down to losing all that fat so considering the result I would still say the steroids werent as needed.

Still reps for the change and being so honest during his cycle. Its a great resource for other looking into cycles.


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## thestudbeast (Jul 20, 2007)

LMAO at both sides on this arguement. He's an adult so he needs not justify his steriod use, now woody if you could do it without the I told you so attitude then everyone will calm down.

If I'd gone through what he had I'd use for sure.


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## bigacb (Nov 13, 2007)

thestudbeast said:


> If I'd gone through what he had I'd use for sure.


Agreed...


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## fits (Feb 3, 2004)

thestudbeast said:


> LMAO at both sides on this arguement. He's an adult so he needs not justify his steriod use,* now woody if you could do it without the I told you so attitude* QUOTE]
> 
> This I agree with, and also, stop ruining other peoples journals just because you don't get on with them! as well as stop dishing out AAS advise as FACT when it is only your opinion. and stop.............. no. thats it from me for now.......cue the sarky, bickery response.............. :rockon:


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## fits (Feb 3, 2004)

thestudbeast said:


> If I'd gone through what he had I'd use for sure.


 I have not read woody's full history so as I said before, these things may have already been answered, but... what have the doctors/specialists said? after going through so much, would it not have been better to try to bring himself slowly and steadily up to 'normal' and tried to advance naturally at first rather than jumping into the deep end? and I mean that from a medical point of view not morally? People are on here advising and congratulating him, what if, due to reasons in his medical history, he gets f*cked up, what are people on here going to say then after dishing out encouragement to him?


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## bigacb (Nov 13, 2007)

fits said:


> I have not read woody's full history so as I said before, these things may have already been answered, but... what have the doctors/specialists said? after going through so much, would it not have been better to try to bring himself slowly and steadily up to 'normal' and tried to advance naturally at first rather than jumping into the deep end? and I mean that from a medical point of view not morally? People are on here advising and congratulating him, what if, due to reasons in his medical history, he gets f*cked up, what are people on here going to say then after dishing out encouragement to him?


Im congratulating him on what hes had to go through as a person and where hes come too. Having them problems and surgery wont have been the easiest and looking at him now compared to then he's in alot better shape both mentally and pyhsically. Im not sure whether he was better doing it naturally or what, this i cant comment on.


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

dan ellis said:


> My Bad, got suspicious and wondered if this bloke always took the easy way out- this is obviously not the case so i respect the bloke for what he has gone through.
> 
> However, i personally would still not **** with my system if i had gone through this but if he is doing everything correctly and not playing russian roullete with his body thats fine.
> 
> Good luck in the future


Hi mate...no it is easy to jump to assumptions considering that a lot of people on this board come from a complete different angle than my self. when i was 18st i lost over 6 1/2 stone having to follow a 1000 cal a day diet, in a year i lost all that weight and was down 2 around 10st. Now you can imagine with all that weight loss the would have been significant muscle loss that coupled with the fact i had no testosterone virtually destroyed most of my skeletal muscle.

i would say a lot of my gains have just been to get back default skeletal muscle including recovery of important muscles such as my heart. It takes a long time to get back to full fitness even using steroids. I mean i am 27 now and i have made the descion that i do not want to be 35 before i peak physically.

I mean even adnrogenicly i have not peaked...i am just starting to get chest hair and shaving regularly...it takes a long time for you body to catch up.

I have made a calculated risk on this...but for me i feel it is a risk worth taking.

When i said i have had test of 1 1/2 years i mean that i have had normal testosterone levels not on gear for a year 1/2 i have been deprived of around 18,250mg or (more) test over 10 years based on 5mg a day.


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

This was me just before i started weight training 4 or so years ago


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## thestudbeast (Jul 20, 2007)

**** him up how? I'm no e-doctor so I'll just say if I was in the same postion at 27 I'd do the same and if it shut me down permentantly I'd stay on. I presume the doctors would tell him if he was at anymore risk than the rest of us using gear.


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

Well you do look way better and good for you Woodie.


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

thestudbeast said:


> **** him up how? I'm no e-doctor so I'll just say if I was in the same postion at 27 I'd do the same and if it shut me down permentantly I'd stay on. I presume the doctors would tell him if he was at anymore risk than the rest of us using gear.


My Endo did not put me on HRT as my test fell in the normal zone...the very low end of normal at the time. The NHS can be very blank minded when it comes to protocols on treating individual cases.

My endo asked me why my Test was so hi after doing clomid the first time, so i told her and she laughed saying that clomid is used for pregnant females...but then she had to admit it worked...this is how clueless they can be.

She questioned me about steroids after my blood test results on the Tbol diary...i did not bother denying it and she gave me a lecture on how steroids are bad for you and they will raise my prolactin...i had already investigated to see if there was a link to prolactin and T which there was none so i knew she was talking ****e.

Any ways my prolactin has never gone up infact the opposite has happened...it is now to low despite 2 successful and one failed cycle so i have had to cut back on the dostinex. My new MRI shows that my tumour has completely gone just leaving an empty space.

What i am saying is you even have to question so called professionals views ...there is nothing wrong with doing this...i don't think i am smarter than them i just think i have the right to question there judgement. The more they get the right the more trust i will give them.

Thanks for all the support :beer:


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## Cookie (Sep 14, 2009)

winger said:


> Then you had guys coming onto his thread and saying he wasn't training right....lol


Isn`t the basic idea of self improvement built around ones ability to train correctly, given training is what its all about?

Do not large numbers fail in their attempts to make progress due to improper training regimes, from overtraining to undertraining, wrong exercise selection, poor exercise form etc..?

If somebody sees something is wrong then wouldn`t it be wrong of that individual to keep their gobs shut and to not say something and let somebody fail or not reach the point they should reach?


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

ONE SMART COOKIE said:


> Isn`t the basic idea of self improvement built around ones ability to train correctly, given training is what its all about?
> 
> Do not large numbers fail in their attempts to make progress due to improper training regimes, from overtraining to undertraining, wrong exercise selection, poor exercise form etc..?
> 
> If somebody sees something is wrong then wouldn`t it be wrong of that individual to keep their gobs shut and to not say something and let somebody fail or not reach the point they should reach?


I am happy with my routine...it works well for me :thumbup1:


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

fits said:


> This I agree with, and also, stop ruining other peoples journals just because you don't get on with them! as well as stop dishing out AAS advise as FACT when it is only your opinion. and stop.............. no. thats it from me for now.......cue the sarky, bickery response.............. :rockon:


Are you not guilty yourself of hijacking his journal with biased responses?

I see it as you are.

How can you call foul to him and hypocritically do it back and think no foul?

Fits, did you not jump the gun and start insulting him without reading his journal to understand why in the first place his motivation for doing what he is doing?

You see, after his pituitary tumor was removed, he was left with no testosterone, no sex drive, a nice pair of tits and a belly to match.

He went to his doctor to help him get his stuff back online and they didn't have a clue, the fix was actually TRT.

He decided he wanted help to jump his HPTA back online and he asked me for help.

Guess what?

His stuff all returned with a good PCT that even his doctors could not help him with.

That is awesome.

Fits I don't understand the fear tactics going on here, steroids are much safer than the media suggests. He is in good hands, he is doing fine, he does feel good, and if anything goes wrong then he still can go on TRT which by the way the doctors were going to do anyway.

He is not going to have any problems.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

ONE SMART COOKIE said:


> Isn`t the basic idea of self improvement built around ones ability to train correctly, given training is what its all about?
> 
> Do not large numbers fail in their attempts to make progress due to improper training regimes, from overtraining to undertraining, wrong exercise selection, poor exercise form etc..?
> 
> If somebody sees something is wrong then wouldn`t it be wrong of that individual to keep their gobs shut and to not say something and let somebody fail or not reach the point they should reach?


Just out of curiosity, how is his routine wrong?

He is losing fat and gaining muscle, where is he going wrong?

When suggestions are made to help him train properly, would this not suggest that what ever training he is getting or getting it from is wrong?

Or the only person that can train him properly is this person/persons suggesting help?

There are many qualified people on this board to train him properly, although he has not directly asked me, I could help him train properly too.

He only needs to ask, that's it.

Would you suggest cookie that I would be giving him bad advice in training if he asked me?

I would suggest there are many qualified people on this board that could help him, but he is making gains so we can just leave it at that.


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## Robbyg (Feb 25, 2008)

I think credit should be given when credit is due , i think he has done an amazing job he has come along way from 18 st there are not many people out there who have got the balls to come on here and post a journal and tell everyone some quite personal stuff .

There are some people only on here ready to slate people on their progress how ever small it maybe , we should start to congrat each other on our progress and be positive as this only spears people on instead of being negative anyway enough of my rant .....


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## fits (Feb 3, 2004)

hackskii said:


> Are you not guilty yourself of hijacking his journal with biased responses?
> 
> I see it as you are.
> 
> ...


 No fear factor, Im not the one that has spent half his life as a women and is now dabbling with strong drugs. I just put some questions to you thats all. As I said before, He has made some good changes, But I put it to you again, do you not think he could have got to the standard that he is at without AAS? in a resasonble amount of time? or not? maybe not with all his problems....its just a question.

I know woody is your little project and it seems that you have done good things with him up to now, and I would not call you out on your knowlage of AAS, as you seem to know your stuff. But you state above "he isn't going to have any problems" - how can you be 100% certain? what if he does? do you have the bank balance to cover the law suit LOL

I put questions up, you have come on in MAJOR defense mode for your little project. to save this going the way other threads have I will not make this into an arguement. Lets sit back and watch the show . :beer:


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## fits (Feb 3, 2004)

Robbyg said:


> I think credit should be given when credit is due , i think he has done an amazing job he has come along way from 18 st there are not many people out there who have got the balls to come on here and post a journal and tell everyone some quite personal stuff .
> 
> There are some people only on here ready to slate people on their progress how ever small it maybe , we should start to congrat each other on our progress and be positive as this only spears people on instead of being negative anyway enough of my rant .....


 100% agree - credit should be given where credit is due and , woody has made some big changes - congratulations. But all the other arguements are spin offs from one thing. Woody went about telling people that a certain way of doing things was crap. He said he tried it when he had not. And his response to people's comments, some of them constructive comments, was rude, very!

I think whats made things worse is that Hack has taken him on as a project and has been biased towards woody, inturn offending other, very valuable, members. This in turn has put peoples backs up as he is a MOD and should dnot be biased.

I have never had a problem with Hack (as far as I can remember) and even offered to buy the first round should BOI ever have a meet up (it may have been winger actually but they are the same any way lol ) but I do feel that hacks has been far to eager to respond for woody!

even on this thread, woody ignored my posts, which is fair enough, I was going to let it go, and therefore would not have posted on his thread again.... but hacks jumps in to Defend. And in a very accusing way....now im posting again LOL and around around we go. any way, i have obviously had far too much coffee and it home time!


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## thestudbeast (Jul 20, 2007)

fits said:


> No fear factor, Im not the one that has spent half his life as a women and is now dabbling with strong drugs. :beer:


out of order mate.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Fits.

Your responses are biased; I can see them in your posts. I can tell by your defensiveness as well.

You suggest he is hijacking Samauri's thread and accuse of him yourself, but you are doing it to him and he is not asking you to not do it.

I don't need to call him out for doing it, you are already doing that.

I am calling you out for doing it because nobody else is and you are the one calling foul. This is hypocrisy and actually worst in nature than what he is doing as you are doing it too and calling foul.

See the difference?

14 x 14 cycles do in fact shut you down, I have blood tests to prove it and if this isn't understood by you then I won't take the time to spell it out for you. I wasn't following woody's comments on how he did it.

The reason I know the 14 x 14 does shut you down as I used this approach with a buddy of mine, I even posted the blood results, I have seen his numbers on paper and his lipid profile was seriously compromised.

While we are at it, after 2 months my friend's lipid profile was compromised. What would happen if he thought the 14 x 14 was safe as cookie and samauri suggested and did this for a year?

I can tell you, it would not be good.

So, in your effort to defend sam's protocol as a safer way of doing things, I would suggest otherwise that it could in fact be more dangerous than the traditional 8 week cycle with a PCT.

I have much more to say on this and can go into more detail of how it is flawed and not safer as you suggest.

Not to mention I do have blood work and sam and cookie do not.

So, if you want facts, I do have them, they don't.

As you know and everyone else knows I never said anything bad about samauri. Show me one post where I flamed him, and I can show you many where he did flame me.

That really isn't my style to insult and flame; I am merely showing the flaws to the cycle and the potential risks.

It is woody's decision and his alone if he wants to take drugs, it is not for you, nor anyone else that he has to answer for, or defend his position.

Why do you feel the need to do so?

Would he have gotten the gains natural?

No, not in the same time he did.

You can only keep the gains that your natural hormonal profile will allow you to keep. If you carry 50 more pounds of muscle than you can normally carry, once you go off, over a period of time those gains will disappear. This is all genetically disposed.

So, the answer to your question is this. No, not given the same time frame.

I am quite confident that he will not have any problems. After all he is getting blood work done and that is a bit more than the other guys are doing. Not only that, dude isn't an idiot either. Trust me he will be fine.

It's like you want him to have problems or something.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Oh, and cookie and sam flammed woody's journal long before woddy did it to sam, but I can see you never spoke up with that.

See how this gives the appearance of biasedness?...........not even sure if that is a word...lol


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## fits (Feb 3, 2004)

thestudbeast said:


> out of order mate.


 Don't Shi* stir, you have taken a very small piece of what I was saying and made a point out of it! As I have said before, I think he has done well to make changes.

Hack

I don't have much time as I am leaving work

You are making a point of me doing something. highjacking a journal, something your little project has done and you not only didn't call him out for it, you helped!

You can put up what ever blood works you have, but at the end of the day how does this help? for all we know your 'Freind' may have dont the 14x14 completely different to s69....just like woody did! You never actually mention, as far as I can see the fact that woody didn't do the cycle anything like it was suggested!!!!!

I would like to see your full opinion on the 14x14 though, maybe start another thread?

From what I read cookie gave advise on woodys journal and woody done his usual and went off at the deep end!!!!

You say "It's like you want him to have problems or something" - I say go back and read my posts. I have stated - I HOPE HE DOESN'T GET PROBLEMS FURTHER DOWN THE LINE! and I mean that.

Home time


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

Ok Fits you have had your say now just leave it


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## Andy Dee (Jun 1, 2008)

who cares, he looks great and has acheived an amazing goal, id say by the look of him, the risk was worth taking, woody you used steroids to get to where you wanted to be, good for you i say, cos your cycles done less far damage to your health as it would have done being miserable and unhappy not being able to make your goal without them.


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## EDG301 (Oct 18, 2005)

Lets not be bitches here guys, its woodys journal and were all littering it with pointless and petty arguments. Respect to woody, if his done his research and has taking on the possible consequences, then good luck in the future m8- people will question your motives as this is a unusual situation that most people cannot understand, but be aware that people who do offer advise/opinions are either trying to help or trying to understand.

Please delete the above arguments so other people can read your journal without having to skim through the ****e.


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## EDG301 (Oct 18, 2005)

Also, good progress dude


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

ONE SMART COOKIE said:


> Isn`t the basic idea of self improvement built around ones ability to train correctly, given training is what its all about?
> 
> Yes, but can a guy with a tes level of a girl train like a normal guy with normal tes levels?
> 
> ...


Yes, but did he ask for your opinions?

Cookie, I am not in any way having a go and I do love you more than you might know!

I love your mind, I love your thoughts and I love your routines. For those in the know, I have tried his routines with great gains.

Why can I say that? Because he is a mod on my board and he was my first pic. Funny how threads go and I am sorry to see Sam69 banned.

He is also a member on my board.

If Sam got regular blood work like woodie, this whole thread wouldn't have taken off like it did. But is that a bad thing? Look at all the traffic....lol :thumb:


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

I really can't say anything here bro..............

Woody is not my project, he never asked me.

Right now I would not mind claiming his success.....lol

I would like to see his routine actually........

He is doing fine though, even though he is.............Oh hell, not my project.....lol.....

Woody is his own man, trust me.......

Ok woody send me your routine please................

Or post it on the board here................we can fine tune.....


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

Well that is funny, I never saw his routine and it got criteaked (sp)....lol

Hell, I want to try his routine.....lol


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

Guys stop B1tching...

at the end of the day the only true way to determine shutdown or suppression is blood tests this is fact and no one can get around this so with this in mind no one can say they have not been sutdown or negativly effected by any steroid course no matter how many times they or others say so.....like i have said before pay for the steroids pay for the blood work......fukcing idiots


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

Be getting my blood work drawn in a few weeks time along with Liver values  I will post my routine up a bit later as i am off to work.

Romper stomper i do not appreciate you sending me PM's calling me a **** and why do i bother posting etc etc... If you got something constructive to say then post it on the board...otherwise leave it out will ya!


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## Cookie (Sep 14, 2009)

Winger,

Intersting thoughts, but what you seemed to have overlooked is the basic principles of health & longevity in that you treat the cause not the symptoms, treat as a whole.

Adding super fuel to a knackered engine (as already suggested) will only result in diar(sp) consequences, lovingly finely tune that engine back to health/life through conditioning, 100% clean diet, adiquate(sp) recovery techniques, 8-9hrs sleep per night, water consumption to suit their needs and a few other little tricks would yes take a little longer (where are patience when you need them) but propel them much further than they could imagine not only in their looks, self confidence but also longevity outlook on life.

To me its a win win situation, just a little patience and humility is required.

And thank you for the kind words. :thumbup1:


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## fits (Feb 3, 2004)

winger said:


> If Sam got regular blood work like woodie, this whole thread wouldn't have taken off like it did.:


 Here we go again, Making assumption??? Is this a genetic disorder? you go around stating things as if they are FACT!!!!! It is very frustrating when people are calling others out for bickering, and highjacking threads and stuff when you have all done the same else where and you STILL say things like that above......... it's as If you are trying to antagonise people.

PsCarb, What you say is ofcourse correct, BUT, I don't think S69 ever stated that He was definitely NOT shut down, he didn't have blood works but didn't 'notice' any bad sides, or OBVIOUS signs of shut down....there lies a HUGE difference! and I think people are getting confused - lets remind people for the last time - woody had bloods done - YES - But woody didn't do the same Cycle as Sam

Now, We are going around in circles and this is a mans journal so I will not post on woodys thread and disrupt his journal any more.

I have never said woody should not take AAS - I don't know enough about them or his condition to make such a bold statement.

good luck with your continued experiments Woody, ill be reading along with many others I'm sure at what happens sin the future. Your on here documenting everything which is brave and I'm sure will help educate people along the way.

To good health :beer:


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## bigacb (Nov 13, 2007)

winger said:


> If Sam got regular blood work like woodie, this whole thread wouldn't have taken off like it did. But is that a bad thing? Look at all the traffic....lol :thumb:


This is the most true thing that has been said all day. There would have never been an arguement in the first place if this happened. Sam69 would have said 'yes im shutdown with blood results proving this' or 'no im not shutdown with blood results proving this' so FITS hows you could say this comment isnt true i really dont know.


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

Mon

Chest, Triceps, Shoulders

Weighted dips: 10 x 10kg, 8 x 40kg, 8 x 40kg, 30kg to failure

Flat Dumbbell press: 10 x 30kg, 8 x 60kg, 8 x 60, 50kg to failure

Standing cable fly: 4 Sets.

Rope triceps pull downs: 4 sets

Seated Dumbbell shoulder press (Alternate session use the Smith machine)

Front cable raises

Wed

Back, Traps, Biceps

Deadlifts: 10 x 100kg, 6 x 140kg, 6 x140kg, 10 x 100kg (Alternate with bent over rows each session)

Pull ups: 10, 10, 8, 6, last set to failure

Dumbbell shrugs

Cable curl or EZ curl

Fri

Legs, Abs

Squat 5 sets - last set to failure.

Seated leg curl 4 - sets,

Seated leg raise - 4sets

Calf raises -4 sets.

Weighted crunches, Side crunches, hanging leg raises

Sun

Repeat Monday workout and so on

****Sorry not to detailed I have had to rush&#8230;. I will try to amend when I get home


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## irwit (Mar 29, 2007)

so its an every other day training then rather thana monday wednesday friday ? Bigchest workout mate, Id be f00ked off that !!!


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

Yea i have found that that is optimal enough time for me to recover...and because it is a split routine It works out that muscles only get directly stimulated every 4 days...i normally swap exercises around each session to keep the stimulation varied but essentially that was what i was following on my cycle.

Monday seems like a large amount of exercises but i can get done within 45 mins as i don't like to chat and **** about like some others in the gym. IN and OUT...then some protein and simple sugars down my neck!


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Monday

Chest

That looks ok woody but I would change a few things around like.

I would do the dips last and bench and inclines first.

Dips will hit lower chest and so will bench.

So, bench, then inclines, then dips, you really don't need the fly's yet, that will put some extra fatigue in the routine and possibly compromise shoulders some.

shoulders

Next I would do military press, then side laterals, probably wont need to do front raises as front delts will get hit from bench, military, inclines and dips, so there would be a chance of overtraining the shoulders.

Triceps

Triceps will not need much if anything here as they just have been hit with bench, inclines, military press and dips, and all angles have been hit, so the triceps will be hammered if you are using any kind of intensity. You honestly won't need the isolation here; it will only cut into your recovery.

Wednesday

I would swap legs here for back and biceps, the extra recovery time from upper body will be beneficial here.

Squats

And another big movement exercise like leg press or hack squats, just a different variation of angles here.

Calves are fine.

You could do your leg curls on back day as dead lifts incorporate a lot of hamstring, and mostly in the glute to hamstring tie in.

It is your call it does not make that much of a difference.

Friday

Dead lifts

I would do two variations of rowing exercises personally. If you think of it like this&#8230;. You are doing so much pushing exercises that muscle imbalance can happen. As it looks you are doing nothing for back thickness with the exception of dead lifts. As much pushing as you are doing, you seriously need to do more pulling work with either a low row, a mid row, and a high row.

Again, it is all about angles.

Think of the rear delt for instance as an opposite as the front delt, you are getting your front delt hit using no less than 4 other exercises.

Your rear delt is really only being hit indirectly with deads and pulldowns. So with that said, select two rowing exercises with different angels and one pulldown or pullup exercise.

This will help give you more balance in your body and help you with less chance of injury due to muscle imbalance.

Dead lifts

Bent over rows

High row or low row

Pulldowns/pullups.

You wont need shrugs if you are doing dead lifts.

Strait curl bar curls.

But vary this from week to week.

Hope this helps some, it isn't perfect, but it will get you closer, also allow you to not overtrain with extra isolation exercises that honestly wont do much of anything.


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

Thanks for the time to look at it mate...it has changed somewhat since then i am now doing a push and pull routine for chest and back on the same day...i just did not have time to write and post it up...when i get 5 mins thou i will do.

Right off to bed to see if the misses will give me some sexy time!

Cheers!


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

cwoody123 said:


> Right off to bed to see if the misses will give me some sexy time!
> 
> Cheers!


Does that go under cardio?


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## MXD (Jan 23, 2008)

Lol I very much doubt it, I used to say sex was cardio, my mrs said it was more like a 1 rep max! :lol:


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## noturbo (Oct 27, 2006)

MXD said:


> Lol I very much doubt it, I used to say sex was cardio, my mrs said it was more like a 1 rep max! :lol:


 :lol: Thats some funny stuff right there, made me giggle anywho :lol:


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

MXD said:


> Lol I very much doubt it, I used to say sex was cardio, my mrs said it was more like a 1 rep max! :lol:


Well at least your training...lol


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## miller25 (Apr 22, 2007)

MXD, your looking pumped up.


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## bigacb (Nov 13, 2007)

miller25 said:


> MXD, your looking pumped up.


Why dont you just sleep with him... :lol:


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## MXD (Jan 23, 2008)

miller25 said:


> MXD, your looking pumped up.


Cheers m8 :thumbup1:


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## miller25 (Apr 22, 2007)

bigacb said:


> Why dont you just sleep with him... :lol:


Cos i've been waiting for you all my life.


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

Man love...you got to love it!..does anyone else get homosexual or bestiality thoughts when there on?


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

cwoody123 said:


> Man love...you got to love it!..does anyone else get homosexual or bestiality thoughts when there on?


Only twice...lol


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## miller25 (Apr 22, 2007)

No, but I look at every girls **** that I see and say fcuk me i'd tear that ****.


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## miller25 (Apr 22, 2007)

The word thats edited is every girls bottom


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## bigacb (Nov 13, 2007)

miller25 said:


> Cos i've been waiting for you all my life.


and i thought you didnt care :wub: .


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Lets please keep this on topic.......

I dont mind some hyjacking, but..............


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## bigacb (Nov 13, 2007)

hackskii said:


> Lets please keep this on topic.......
> 
> I dont mind some hyjacking, but..............


jealous...haha only kidding.


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## Guest (Jun 12, 2008)

cwoody123 said:


> I am happy with my routine...it works well for me :thumbup1:


Sorry woddy, may have missed it (im reading this while pretending to work)

But what is your workout?

Nice thread and progress. To be honest i would have expected more but im naive about test etc and this is the most in depth 'study' (i suppose) ive seen.

Cheers


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

Hi mate...soz for the delay...been sunning myself up in a hot country 

Mon

Chest, Triceps, Shoulders

Weighted dips: 10 x 10kg, 8 x 40kg, 8 x 40kg, 30kg to failure

Flat Dumbbell press: 10 x 30kg, 8 x 60kg, 8 x 60, 50kg to failure

Standing cable fly: 4 Sets.

Rope triceps pull downs: 4 sets

Seated Dumbbell shoulder press (Alternate session use the Smith machine)

Front cable raises

Wed

Back, Traps, Biceps

Deadlifts: 10 x 100kg, 6 x 140kg, 6 x140kg, 10 x 100kg (Alternate with bent over rows each session)

Pull ups: 10, 10, 8, 6, last set to failure

Dumbbell shrugs

Cable curl or EZ curl

Fri

Legs, Abs

Squat 5 sets - last set to failure.

Seated leg curl 4 - sets,

Seated leg raise - 4sets

Calf raises -4 sets.

Weighted crunches, Side crunches, hanging leg raises

Sun

Repeat Monday workout and so on

I have changed my routine quite a lot since...but that was the routine i was doing on my last cycle.

The real success of those before and after pictures in my view was the diet at the end of my cycle, the Test allowed me to keep muscle whilst shedding fat.

I will be following a similar cycle in the near future with a VLCD at the end followed by carb cycling


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

You can do it without a VLCD diet.


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

I agree you can lose weight without a VLCD over a longer period. The reason i choose to do the VLCD is to get as much fat burning in 4 weeks whilst i am still in an anabolic state. The benefits do slow very quickly on a VLCD due to your body down regulating its metabolizm due to lack of food. This is the reason i swap over to Carb cycling after.

Another benefit i find is after 8 weeks of bulking i become sick of food which allows me to stick the diet out a little more, also i am an 'all or nothing person' so i can easily stick it out for a month

I think everyone finds there own way to diet...what works for one may not work for another.


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## bertil1980 (Jun 5, 2008)

nice gains m8 :thumb: would you opt for test E again or would you go for some sust next time? also how did you find the strenght gains on test E?


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

I was going to go for sust but it was not readily available in eygpt so i am opting for test E again...i would have liked to try sust but Test E does the job so i aint fussed. Strength gains were larger when i was taking tbol and test. sort of leveled off after week 7, but for sure noticeable strength gains and intensity.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Ever try a keto diet before woody?

4 weeks work well on those.


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

ketonic diet **** me up mate. I really don't react well to no carbs...i need my brain for work so that pushed me away from doing a ketonic diet. I can just about handle Carb cycling lol


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

cwoody123 said:


> ketonic diet **** me up mate. I really don't react well to no carbs...i need my brain for work so that pushed me away from doing a ketonic diet. I can just about handle Carb cycling lol


The reason you probably had such a bad experiance was because you probably were not on long enough, or the fat was not high enough for you to slip into fat burning.

It is harder for some than others, I for one can transition very easy, many can not, but ketones are just fine for the brain, I love how I feel on them TBH.

I actually have more energy on a keto diet, but it could take up to 3 days before your body starts using fat for fuel, if the fat/fuel is too low, you will get that problem.

The brain is the biggest glucose hog in the body, it is just being stubbern.

Fat loss is actually faster on a keto diet than a starvation diet.

Both will lose the same amount of weight, but starvation diets will take more muscle and less fat.


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

Might give it a go again i think before my cycle and see how i get on for 2 weeks


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

Scott one more question: I noticed that my energy levels were low when low carbing...i would be yawning all day...that would not be a good idea in my new job. Once you get into ketosis does this pass?


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

cwoody123 said:


> Scott one more question: I noticed that my energy levels were low when low carbing...i would be yawning all day...that would not be a good idea in my new job. Once you get into ketosis does this pass?


Yes, once in ketosis my energy is endless, I am not tired at all, especially after a meal where you spike blood sugars and insulin will make them fall, and after big meals.

Keto diets are effective because it taps into your own fat for fuel.

They do have their problems like your breath will small like hell, certain body odors over time will be kind of funky, some get headaches, some get tired, but once in ketosis if the fat is high, you should be fine, it can take 3 days or more.

I do notice the more you do the diets the easier to slip in to them.


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

Ok as of Monday i will give it a go. I will post up a keto Diary in the diet section to motivate myself. Before and after shots etc...I put on 4 lbs on holiday so i want that off and i want to continue the hunt for my abs before my next cycle. I can see them when i lean back so i'm close!


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## chris carter (Sep 12, 2008)

sound


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