# How many grams of protein per bodyweight?



## hackskii

This is really actually going to be a debate.

I am asking for others input on this one.

How many mg per pound or kg of bodyweight in protein a day?

i would like some that know about protein turnover and nutrient partitioning and stuff to chime in.


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## nathanlowe

I take in between 150g and 200g of protein per day at a body weight of 170pounds.


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## chronic-2001

I aim for roughly 2 grams of protein for every gram of my weight.

Just do that because I remember when I first started someone told me that was the ideal amount. Is quite costly though since im a vegetarian so I have to supplement alot


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## cellaratt

I shoot for 300 grams a day at a body weight of 140lbs and a next target weight of 150lbs. 2:1 ratio...


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## 2tpaul

i weigh 177 and i usually have 200 grams of potein a day


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## Kel

I have posted a similar thread, also wanted to know bout carbs if you wouldnt mind taking a look. Thanks (sorry for the hijack hackskii!)


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## hackskii

I am not really asking how much, but why do you use the amounts you choose?

i mean, did it come from an article or something?

Did a buddy say do this or that?

Do you notice more or less gains with increasing it or decreasing it?

The amount of protein has long been a debate.

I want to know why you select the amount.

I know this might open up a can of worms but..............lol

I only take in about 150 maybe grans a day and I am 223 lbs.

When I was 215 pounds I only took in 180 grams.

When I was 190 lbs I only took in 130 grams.

To be honest, I dont take in as much protein as most and actually dont feel it is necessary.

I think the numbers are flawed, and I also feel they are missinterprited too.


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## cellaratt

Well ...my training partner recommend twice my bodyweight...I up it to fit the next weight I'm aiiming for...to much debate to look any further...Works well for me when I can stick to my diet. Couple of months ago I gained 18 lbs in five weeks...


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## Wee G1436114539

For drug free guys i go with Lemon at 1.8g / kg LBM, providing their is a calorie surplus overall in the diet.

For enhanced guys i think the sky is the limit to be honest. Yet to see a decent study using over a gram of T plus extras with 200 / 300 / 400g protein though...lol....so really it is all conjecture.


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## MXD

Hmmmm it is a very tricky area tbh, It all depends on how much insulin can deposit the amino acids into musclular tissues and how much is secreted by in the kidneys.

Other factors come into play such as glucogen secretion via the liver that gets secreted in the presence of too much protein, this impares insulin release and therefore halts protein synthesis.

Also excess protein will just be secreted via loop of henle or turned into blood glucose via glucenogensis.

What we need would be studies indicating protein saturation and glucogen release in realation to kg or lbm.


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## trickymicky69

THIS IS AN EXTRACT FROM THE UK COUNCIL FOR SPORT.

makes some interesting reading

FACTFILE > PROTEIN

Protein is required for building and repairing muscle. But that doesn't necessarily mean that strenuous training, be it strength, speed or endurance work merits the need for extra protein. In fact most athletes will find that their protein intakes are high enough because of the extra food they are eating to meet the energy needs of their sport.

Daily protein recommendations - grams of protein / per kilogram of bodyweight / per day

Activity level

Protein g/kg/d

Sedentary to low levels of activity

0.75

Regular activity (more than 1 hour per day)

1.0-1.2

Endurance athletes

1.2-1.4

Strength or speed athletes

1.2-1.7

Should you increase protein intake when you want to build muscle? If so how much?

It is important to note, that experts state there is no advantage - either in terms of performance or muscle size - in taking more than 2g of protein per kg of body weight per day (providing carbohydrate needs are met). However many strength athletes and bodybuilders report consuming protein in excess of 2-3g/kg/per day. This is often in the belief that excess protein will lead to an increase in muscle mass but, in reality the extra protein is metabolized and excreted rather than converted into muscle.

Although such high protein diets are not necessarily harmful, they are expensive and also carry the risk of displacing other nutritional goals such as providing adequate carbohydrate fuel for continued training and performance. In fact it is entirely feasible that an increase in energy intake is fundamental for increasing muscle mass during training, possibly more so than protein intake. But it's important to ensure this tactic fits in with the other training and competition goals and does not lead to an undesirable increase in fat mass.

Do you need to use protein powders, or are other dietary sources of protein (e.g. milk) ok?

In practise providing enough food is consumed to meet both energy and carbohydrate requirements, then achieving an adequate amount of protein is fairly easy. Animal sources are richer in protein than vegetable sources, therefore a larger quantity of non-animal sources need to be consumed to provide the equivalent amounts of protein. This can be particularly problematic for vegetarian strength and endurance athletes due to the bulk of the fibre-rich vegetables and pulses that they need to eat to meet the daily protein needs. In this situation, protein intake needs to be monitored and it may be necessary to supplement the diet with a rich source of protein such as a milk powder.

10g protein is provided by

30g lean meat or poultry

40g fish

70g soya beans

125g tofu, lentils, kidney beans

small tin (225g) baked beans

50g nuts or seeds

2 small eggs

330ml cows milk

400ml soya milk

30g skimmed milk powder

200g yoghurt

40g hard chees

110g breakfast cereal

3 slices bread

It is simple to meet protein needs from everyday foods, this still holds true when dietary fat intake needs to be controlled. Here it would still be best to carefully select protein foods - and cooking methods - before resorting to using protein supplements. In these situations it is strongly recommended that advice is sought from a sports nutrition expert.

High protein diets have been falsely associated with exercise training, due to the mistaken belief that this will lead to greater muscle mass and strength, simply because muscle itself is protein. But despite the influential power of advertising, a protein supplement will primarily just burn a large hole in your pocket. Nor is there any benefit in taking expensive individual amino acid supplements. It doesn't matter if excess protein is obtained from food or a supplement it still won't be turned into muscle


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## trickymicky69

so are our theories outdated because the 30g per meal argument dates back to the 70's?

is it time for change?


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## Tall

trickymicky69 said:


> so are our theories outdated because the 30g per meal argument dates back to the 70's?
> 
> is it time for change?


I dunno if you like steak, but a nice 1lb round of sirloin will have a good 100g of protein in there.

30g of protein would be found in approx 150g of chicken, 150g of beef, not a vast amount of meat.

Most of the 1g per 1lb of bodyweight comes from magazines/supplement manufacturers.

I think in short most people need to find what works for them.

I can happily sit at around 150g+ Protein at ~250lbs, I get bigger and stronger each week while loosing fat.

If I don't get ~150g I've noticed my recovery isn't as good, although there could be some correllation in the fact that if I'm not getting 150g my diet is probably off...

I have eaten > 400g Protein ED before, and I just got very bloated and farted/crapped most of it out.

I can dig out some studies if I remember / the discussion continues, but they dont show a great deal.

Most of the interesting studies are on BCAAs, the more interesting ones say they aren't as anabolic as everyone makes out...


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## trickymicky69

TH&S said:


> I have eaten > 400g Protein ED before, and I just got very bloated and farted/crapped most of it out.


i bet your biggest workouts were gained pushing your huge turds around the u-bend


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## nathanlowe

I dont think their will ever be a true answer.

Every person is different, has different sized muscles etc so there is going to be no set answer. What works for one person might not work for another.

As we are evolving past studies will also fade out.

In the 1 month i have been havign 150 to 200 g of protein, my strength gains have gone through the roof, i have hit PBs consecitivly on a week by week basis.


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## trickymicky69

nathanlowe said:


> In the 1 month i have been havign 150 to 200 g of protein, my strength gains have gone through the roof, i have hit PBs consecitivly on a week by week basis.


i dont think this can be totally attributed to protein and would guess that it is mostly down to your high test levels (because you are young) and the fact at your level of training the gains will come easily


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## nathanlowe

But when i wasnt following a better diet with a low amount of protein i wasnt making the same strength gains and wasnt lifting the same weights.

Since improving diet i have gone noticably stronger.


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## trickymicky69

nathanlowe said:


> But when i wasnt following a better diet with a low amount of protein i wasnt making the same strength gains and wasnt lifting the same weights.
> 
> Since improving diet i have gone noticably stronger.


it also might be the fact that when you do not eat properly, subconciously you are not as mentally prepared as when you follow a good diet.

its a placebo effect


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## Lost Soul

Wee G said:


> For drug free guys i go with Lemon at 1.8g / kg LBM, providing their is a calorie surplus overall in the diet.
> 
> For enhanced guys i think the sky is the limit to be honest. Yet to see a decent study using over a gram of T plus extras with 200 / 300 / 400g protein though...lol....so really it is all conjecture.


I can live with much of that



MXD said:


> Also excess protein will just be secreted via loop of henle or turned into blood glucose via glucenogensis.


Or the fat pathway if glucose levels are excessive



nathanlowe said:


> But when i wasnt following a better diet with a low amount of protein i wasnt making the same strength gains and wasnt lifting the same weights.
> 
> Since improving diet i have gone noticably stronger.


But as a beginner anything you do will induce increases in strength.

My answer to the question revolves around a few main issues:

Lean body weight, not weight

Other macros in your diet

Use of anabolics

I will go into a little more later when i have a monet but i urger someone to try a day of 500g of protein, minimal water intake and document their toilet habits for the day.


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## thestudbeast

HMMMMMMMMMM!!!!!!!!

No one mentioned what in my opinion is the single most important factor. Have you ever heard of people adding a small dose of T3 into their AAS courses to get "increased protein turnover"? T3 is a thiriod hormone present in everyone in varing amounts, if you have lots of it you'll have a high rate of protein turnover and if you have low amounts your protein turnover will be minimal. Now the naturaly skinny ecto types are flooded with T3, while the endo fatties have almost non existant levels.

This in essence explains why a 140lbs ectomphic guy will need loads of protein to grow and also why you fatties claim to need so little! So I'd happlily tell you the amount of protein you need but you'll have to describe the person before I can recomend anything.


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## Aftershock

The protein I choose to consume varies my carb/fat intake.

When I'm consuming high carbs I do not worry particularly about supplementing the amount of protein I consume, because carbs are protein sparing. In this situation id say the carbs to protein ratio is about 2/1 the vast majority coming from whole foods. So a 500g carb day will have approx 250g of protein.

When I drop the carbs to diet I increase the fats so Im not in a massive calorie deficit, and to try and get the body used to burning fat instead of carbs for fuel.

A lot of the higher fat food sources are naturally higher in protein anyway and this means I generally end up consuming more protein. In this instance the carb/protein ratio switches to about 2/3. eg 200g carbs 300g protein.

I don't think this extra protein is strictly necessary but I like to think of it as insurance, and a consequence of switching to a higher fat diet 

Its very difficult for me to say I consume "x" amount of carbs for a particular reason because It will vary as the other macros vary.


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## Andy Dee

trickymicky69 said:


> i bet your biggest workouts were gained pushing your huge turds around the u-bend


LMAA ROTF lol, mint, yeh, i bet you probably ended up doing a few BB incline brownlifts and log squats in there on that much a day:laugh:

Funny as fook m8


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## the_muss

I personally have found that anything above 1.5g per lb has not had an effect on my results. I have tried various amounts of protein over the last 7 years and i think that the optimum is between 1.2 to 1.5g per lb. When I have had more than this I find myself putting on fat as my cals are too high - even with a low carb diet. This is for a natural bber who trains a 5 day split.


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## fits

interesting topic, I know this has been discussed lots in the past but just from looking at the post you can see that it seems fairly sparodic. Apart from most people seem to consume at least 150g of protein per day....

interesting thought with the T3.

I have changed my mind over the years. (no surprise there) it does seem that the BIG bloke around consume allot more, bu tthen the BIG blokes about are normally using AAS........

what exactly are your thoughts Hack?


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## *BigT*

?


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## Lost Soul

thestudbeast said:


> HMMMMMMMMMM!!!!!!!!
> 
> No one mentioned what in my opinion is the single most important factor. Have you ever heard of people adding a small dose of T3 into their AAS courses to get "increased protein turnover"? T3 is a thiriod hormone present in everyone in varing amounts, if you have lots of it you'll have a high rate of protein turnover and if you have low amounts your protein turnover will be minimal. Now the naturaly skinny ecto types are flooded with T3, while the endo fatties have almost non existant levels.
> 
> This in essence explains why a 140lbs ectomphic guy will need loads of protein to grow and also why you fatties claim to need so little! So I'd happlily tell you the amount of protein you need but you'll have to describe the person before I can recomend anything.


Does this answer the question or does it answer the question of what % ingested they are able to utlise for its purpose?


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## ba baracuss

I currently consume approx 180-200g at 210lbs.

I constantly worry that this isn't enough, however reading how much Hackskii and TH&S get through is very interesting and re-assuring too.

I've only been training and eating properly for a short period of time so I am gradually increasing my intake.

Good thread Scott :thumbup1:


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## hackskii

I specifically asked the question to fire up a debate&#8230;&#8230;Not to mention I did PM some dudes and give them a personal invite&#8230;&#8230;lol

I have a friend that is totally ripped and is a vegetarian, he does not take in that much protein but looks killer and is actually quite strong for how lean he is. I doubt the dude is getting g100 grams of protein a day. I did ask him once and he said he takes in 35 grams a day. At the time looking at him I did everything but call him a liar.

Not sure if he is assisted or not, he looks it but says he is not.

Bill Phillips suggested a time ago that guys that eat huge amounts of protein have a lot of enzyme activity that helps to break down the protein. He suggested that they need large amounts of protein because by eating so much for so long they trained their bodies to be able to use this much. But on the down side if they didn't get enough like what they were eating they would go catabolic.

I have the article I can post it here.

I do feel that people eat more than they need, or that the fitness industry makes sweeping claims about the virtues of protein.

I have seen some studies on this using older folks and whey protein where they did get results. But then again I have no idea how much they were eating in the first place.


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## thestudbeast

Lost Soul said:


> Does this answer the question or does it answer the question of what % ingested they are able to utlise for its purpose?


Well a high protein turn over requires lots of protein, the body will get it for somewhere and if you don't provide the nitrogen source the body will scavenge from one muscle to feed another. I'd of thought the % available would be more related to HCL and enzyme levels and the protein % utilized more related to muscle fibre type and testosterone levels. Still if you have other idea's please share.


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## thestudbeast

hackskii said:


> I specifically asked the question to fire up a debate&#8230;&#8230;Not to mention I did PM some dudes and give them a personal invite&#8230;&#8230;lol
> 
> I have a friend that is totally ripped and is a vegetarian, he does not take in that much protein but looks killer and is actually quite strong for how lean he is. I doubt the dude is getting g100 grams of protein a day. I did ask him once and he said he takes in 35 grams a day. At the time looking at him I did everything but call him a liar.
> 
> Not sure if he is assisted or not, he looks it but says he is not.
> 
> Bill Phillips suggested a time ago that guys that eat huge amounts of protein have a lot of enzyme activity that helps to break down the protein. He suggested that they need large amounts of protein because by eating so much for so long they trained their bodies to be able to use this much. But on the down side if they didn't get enough like what they were eating they would go catabolic.
> 
> I have the article I can post it here.
> 
> I do feel that people eat more than they need, or that the fitness industry makes sweeping claims about the virtues of protein.
> 
> I have seen some studies on this using older folks and whey protein where they did get results. But then again I have no idea how much they were eating in the first place.


There was a killer article on T-Nation on this I'll go find it tommorow. Protein lowers SHBG which is also helpful.

Edit: http://www.t-nation.com/article/diet_and_nutrition/the_protein_debate&cr=dietAndNutrition


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## hackskii

Ah, nice those happen to be some of my favorite authors on protein. I will read this and post back my thoughts.

This thread is comming along better than I thought.


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## Lost Soul

thestudbeast said:


> Well a high protein turn over requires lots of protein, the body will get it for somewhere and if you don't provide the nitrogen source the body will scavenge from one muscle to feed another. I'd of thought the % available would be more related to HCL and enzyme levels and the protein % utilized more related to muscle fibre type and testosterone levels. Still if you have other idea's please share.


Im not sure if I do, I was thinking out loud, but will have a think how this influences carbohydrate metabolism too in terms of T3 and which if any is favoured to increase to overcome such issues


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## thestudbeast

Lost Soul said:


> Im not sure if I do, I was thinking out loud, but will have a think how this influences carbohydrate metabolism too in terms of T3 and which if any is favoured to increase to overcome such issues


I say both as T3 burns through every thing quickly, both carbs and protein reliquish their amino's/glucose quickly where as fat is slow burning so would be counter productive to individuals with high T3.

On the flip side endo's will do well on ultra low GI carb sources, a good percentage of calories from fats and will not need as much protein.


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## trickymicky69

hackskii said:


> I have a friend that is totally ripped and is a vegetarian, he does not take in that much protein but looks killer and is actually quite strong for how lean he is. I doubt the dude is getting g100 grams of protein a day. I did ask him once and he said he takes in 35 grams a day. At the time looking at him I did everything but call him a liar.
> 
> Not sure if he is assisted or not, he looks it but says he is not.


This kinda reminds me of the people that train when incarcerated and still grow on a terrible diet with hardly any protein.

We should all remember most of the supplement industry is based on these claims and that whey will be there biggest earner when they peddle this-for want of a better word-propoganda


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## Tatyana

MXD said:


> Hmmmm it is a very tricky area tbh, It all depends on how much insulin can deposit the amino acids into musclular tissues and how much is secreted by in the kidneys.
> 
> well typically the absolute max amount of amino acids that can be deposited in tissue per day is about 5-10g. So let's say you max that at 10g per day.
> 
> Other factors come into play such as glucogen secretion via the liver that gets secreted in the presence of too much protein, this impares insulin release and therefore halts protein synthesis.
> 
> I think you need to check your biochem, this statement makes no sense whatsoever.
> 
> *Also excess protein will just be secreted via loop of henle* or turned into blood glucose via glucenogensis.
> 
> If you are losing any significant amount of protein through your kidneys, your kidneys are FC-UKed. This statement is not true either.
> 
> What we need would be studies indicating protein saturation and glucogen release in realation to kg or lbm.


Glucogenic amino acids are converted to glucose, ketogenic amino acids to ketone bodies and slotted in further down the glycolytic pathway, some are slotted in the Kreb's cycle as anapleurotic reactions.

Your body does not '****' out anything of value, it would turn any excess calories into fat.

I agree with whoever said it is about biochemical individuality.

It is ridiculous to try and impose some 'cookie cutter' amount of protein on everyone.


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## hackskii

Tatyana said:


> Glucogenic amino acids are converted to glucose, ketogenic amino acids to ketone bodies and slotted in further down the glycolytic pathway, some are slotted in the Kreb's cycle as anapleurotic reactions.
> 
> Your body does not '****' out anything of value, it would turn any excess calories into fat.
> 
> I agree with whoever said it is about biochemical individuality.
> 
> It is ridiculous to try and impose some 'cookie cutter' amount of protein on everyone.


Nice post, and welcome back if I havent said that already. :wub:

I agree with the cookie cutter comment, but also I think this thread should also dispell myths and rumors that is frequently passed around as truth.

One thing I did learn today was this, by Phillips SM.

At the same time, several studies have shown that strength training, consistent with the anabolic stimulus for protein synthesis it provides, actually increases the efficiency of use of protein, which reduces dietary protein requirements.


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## hackskii

Tatyana said:


> Glucogenic amino acids are converted to glucose, ketogenic amino acids to ketone bodies and slotted in further down the glycolytic pathway, some are slotted in the Kreb's cycle as anapleurotic reactions.


hey Tat, do you have a list of which amino's convert to glucose, ketone's?

Could you also explain what anapleurotic reactions are please?

I think I know what you are getting at but honestly it went right over my head.


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## Tatyana

God bless wiki

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glucogenic_amino_acid

A *glucogenic amino acid* is an amino acid that can be converted into glucose through gluconeogenesis.[1][2] This is in contrast to the ketogenic amino acids that are converted into ketone bodies.

In humans, the glucogenic amino acids are - glycine, serine, threonine, valine, histidine, arginine, cysteine, proline, alanine, glutamate, glutamine, aspartate, asparagine and methionine, whereas isoleucine, phenylalanine, tyrosine and tryptophan can be either glucogenic or ketogenic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anapleurosis

Wiki lists only aspartate and glutamate.

The TCA cycle deals with the products of glycolysis, and makes reducing substances for the electron transport chain, where ATP is made.

*Anaplerotic reactions* are those that form intermediates of the TCA or citric acid cycle. The malate is created by PEP carboxylase and malate dehydrogenase in the cytosol. Malate, in the mitochondrial matrix, can be used to make pyruvate (catalyzed by NAD+ malic enzyme) or oxaloacetic acid, both of which can enter the citric acid cycle. As this is a cycle, formation of any of the intermediates can be used to 'top up' the whole cycle. Anaplerotic is of Greek origin, meaning to fill up.


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## Tatyana

Different molecules in the Kreb's cycle/TCA cycle are taken out to make other things, but glycolysis can't carry on unless there are all of the intemediates.

It really is quite a gorgeous little chemical machine.

Glucose is converted to either pyruvate or lactate depending if there is oxygen or not.

Pyruvate is converted to acetyl CoA which is a three carbon molecule, and then it has more carbons added to it, then taken away again (which is why it is called a cycle, it circles around making FADH and NADH)

Acetyl CoA make loads of stuff, but if it isn't going into the TCA cycle, the intermediates still need to be there.

The body keeps these pathways going almost all the time, and they are controlled by either feedback mechanisms or hormones like insulin and glucagon.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acetyl-CoA


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## nathanlowe

Hacksii, what protein is it that you consume during the day ?


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## fits

Wow the thread just got serious! LOL Tat just took it to a level beyond me!

I have started to believe that timing is probably more important than huge amount! People stil think i'm obsessive trying to get protein in to every meal! and im no where near as dedicated as most of you!


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## Lost Soul

Tatyana said:


> Your body does not '****' out anything of value, it would turn any excess calories into fat.


In terms of CALORIES, this is correct and the quicker people learn the better off they will be


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## andyboro

Ok, most of this stuff is so far over my head i need stilts to read it but my understanding was that bodys ability to turn excess cals consumed as protein into fat was quite poor?


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## Lost Soul

bulkaholic said:


> Agree with the fact timing may be key. I have read a good post on this(here i think) that went into the way our bodies are still geared for fibrous fruits and veg along with protein. After heavy excercise the body can process over double the usual stated 30g of protein.
> 
> So I wonder if you would be better off receiving protein mainly morning (to halt catabolism) and pre/post w/o for the same reasons along with the nice insulin spike caused by whey with fast acting carbs.
> 
> Maybe the rest of the day could be much lower protein but just needs somebody daring enough to try it (people don't want to risk losing muscle)
> 
> I have started cycling protein from today (as cycling carbs) so will be interesting to see the results.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Colin


but unlike carbs, AAs cant be stored in their free form


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## Tatyana

andyboro said:


> Ok, most of this stuff is so far over my head i need stilts to read it but my understanding was that bodys ability to turn excess cals consumed as protein into fat was quite poor?


No.

Think about how we evolved, protein/food was a precious comodity while we were living in caves and clubbing animals.

As far as evolution goes, our bodies are still geared up to this way of survival.

Our bodies do not waste a bloody thing, we have an infinite ability to store nutrients in case of times of famine.

I think lost soul meant AAs, as in amino acids (plural).

Fat has a storage tissue - adipose/fat

Carbs have a storage molecule - glycogen

Amino acids are not stored (well you can sort of call it muscle), but they are not wasted.

Amino acids are used for more than just muscle, there are peptide hormones, neurotransmitters, structural proteins (i.e collagen), transport proteins and enzymes.

Enzymes are quite important, they basically make everything in the body and they have to be renewed.

If I went a bit too out there on the biochemical pathways but this is my basic analogy.

Food is like money, and let's say protein and carbs are like tenners (4 kcal/g) and fat is like a twenty (9 kcal/g).

The cells need the energy from food for the same sort of things that a full organism needs it for, eating, repairing things, reproducing, eliminating waste.

Cells can only use energy in the form of coins as they are so diddy.

The central pathways of metabolism, glycolysis, Kreb's cycle and beta oxidation (fatty acid oxidation) converts the big bills into coins.

That is it in a nutshell, and these happen in almost every cell in the body, some to more of an extent some to less of an extent.

The more mitochondria a cell has, the more these metabolic processes (changing money) is going on.


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## Lost Soul

yes AAs = amino acids, AAS = anabolic & androgenic steroids


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## thestudbeast

bulkaholic said:


> Cheers, I have learned so much today already. Everyday i come on here and learn something new:thumb:
> 
> Ok so there is no storage facities for amino's correct? If that's so does this dispell the myth of protein utilisation after exercise?
> 
> I thought the body have an amino acid pool in the liver storing about 15gs? No the body will use more protein after exercise, essential amino acids are the way to go.
> 
> Or does the bodies demand increase to replenish spent reserves? And if that is the case does that mean we wont process more protein just replace the levels used during exercise?
> 
> I'd say so but by how much depends on the individual.
> 
> I am assuming the thinking behind spreading prtein throughout the day is based on the lack of storage facility for protein
> 
> No it's more to do with the amount the body can use at one time, excess amounts will get turned into glucose and used as energy or stored as fat.
> 
> Cheers


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## fits

Wasn't it Gironda who said he would rather a Trainer had just 90g of good quality protein per day? than people have 300g+ ( i think I have quoted that last bit wrong) Cookie?


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## Tinytom

Wow lots of good info there.

I normally stick to 350g a day of protein as this is the level I have found best results at.

I take in protein shakes at specific times ie Breakfast, Pre and Post Workout when I need a fast dump of aminos. I also have a slower acting shake midway through the day when dieting which is more for calories and keeping the metabolism going than any sort of muscle building.

Other than that I have alot of chicken or turkey along with brown basmati rice and some fat which slows down my insulin levels and helps to make sure that as little protein is wasted as possible.

I normally measure excessive protein intake by the 'p*ss test' which will be familiar to many of the guys here.

I am 95kg at present so my protein intake is nearly 4g/kg which some would say is excessive but I am still growing so obviously its not wasted.


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## fits

Do people here keep their protein at a steady rate? Or adjust it when cutting/bulking?


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## Tatyana

bulkaholic said:


> Cheers, I have learned so much today already. Everyday i come on here and learn something new:thumb:
> 
> Ok so there is no storage facities for amino's correct? If that's so does this dispell the myth of protein utilisation after exercise?
> 
> What do you mean by protein utilisation after training exactly?
> 
> There is a period post training where your muscles are glycogen depleted and throwing in food at this time is anabolic.
> 
> Or does the bodies demand increase to replenish spent reserves? And if that is the case does that mean we wont process more protein just replace the levels used during exercise?
> 
> Our bodies do not use protein as an energy source unless they think that the body is starving. I think you are confusing glycogen (glucose/carbs) with protein.
> 
> I am assuming the thinking behind spreading prtein throughout the day is based on the lack of storage facility for protein
> 
> Yes, and protein also has a higher saiety/satisfaction thing.
> 
> Also
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Colin


Studbeast, where did you get that 15 g of protein in the liver thing from?

There may be amino acids in the cells, but they would be there as they are being used to make something.

Central dogma of biology

DNA makes RNA makes protein

RNA are like little factories, they run around the cytoplasm with the code the DNA gave them picking up amino acids and stringing them together to make whatever the cell was stimulated to make, enzymes, cell surface receptors, structural protein like collagen, muscle, hormones..........

We actually know the DNA code for every single amino acid, each one usually has about 4, they occur as triplets.

I think we need some pictures for this.


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## donggle

Tatyana said:


> No.
> 
> Think about how we evolved, protein/food was a precious comodity while we were living in caves and clubbing animals.
> 
> As far as evolution goes, our bodies are still geared up to this way of survival.
> 
> Our bodies do not waste a bloody thing, we have an infinite ability to store nutrients in case of times of famine.


That is an excellent point and one I always come back to. We are all descended from ancestors who were fat and lazy, not the slim, athletic ones. The slim ones would of died in the ice ages but the fatter ones survived by drawing on their stores. Therefore the human body must have some sort of ability to utilise every nutrient it processes to some sort of maximum.

I don't believe in the body only being able to digest a certain amount of protein either, the average man can lift no where near the amount of a trained athlete, so in the same respect, I believe you can train yourself to digest huge amounts of protein.

But only so much protein can be used for actual growth, I believe the rest is used for energy. Therefore as long as you have a surplus of calories at the end of the day with adequate protein you will grow.

The question all comes down to what is the optimal amount of protein?

My opinion is only around 1g/lb of lean bodyweight (everything except fat), but because of what everyone says, I feel like I'm coming short by consuming this. I always pick a weight I want to achieve and eat what I would need at that level, not what I need where I am.

Example being (not calculated, just in my head so probably off), I weigh 92KG which is around 202lb. At around 17-18%bf I would be around 165lbs lean. I want to get to 180lbs lean, so I would eat around 180g per day of protein, which is easily achievable. More often than not I will go up to 200g per day, just because it is a nice round number.


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## thestudbeast

Tatyana said:


> Studbeast, where did you get that 15 g of protein in the liver thing from?


Not sure, thats why I put a ? after it. I presume the use for it would be to turn the protein into glucose by gluconeogenesis which is one of the liver many jobs I beleive.

Be that as it may I'm not sure what all this has too do with the original question.


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## Tall

Tatyana said:


> No.
> 
> Think about how we evolved, protein/food was a precious comodity while we were living in caves and clubbing animals.
> 
> As far as evolution goes, our bodies are still geared up to this way of survival.
> 
> *Our bodies do not waste a bloody thing, we have an infinite ability to store nutrients in case of times of famine.*


Sadly thats not true.

Eat 500g of carbs and see how much your body wastes...


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## Tatyana

> That is an excellent point and one I always come back to. *We are all descended from ancestors who were fat and lazy, not the slim, athletic ones. The slim ones would of died in the ice ages but the fatter ones survived by drawing on their stores*. Therefore the human body must have some sort of ability to utilise every nutrient it processes to some sort of maximum.


Really close but not exactly. Most of our ancestors were probably not fat, but would store fat when they could.

The Pima Indians of Arizona are a good example of what happens when environments shift and moderisation occurs.

Their environment was the desert, and life was a bit harsh. They were not fat.

Now that they have adopted a Western way of living, the incidence of obesity and type 1 and 2 diabetes is higher than almost any other group of people on the planet.

It is thought that they have the 'thrifty' gene, meaning that they are better at storing fat for when they need it.

The world is now fat, there are more overweight and obese people than there are starving people in the world, and this has happened in the last 20-50 years.

Genetic changes don't happen that quickly in humans, it is the environment that has changed, it is now obesogenic.

Heating/Air con in homes etc, transport, the change and availability of foods, all of these things with our primitive 'thrifty fat storing' genes is thought to have resulted in the current obesity crisis.


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## hackskii

nathanlowe said:


> Hacksii, what protein is it that you consume during the day ?


Either chicken, fish, or beef, eggs, but I do get it from other sources indirectly like nuts, and cheese.

Tat, that was fantastic.

I had no idea that amino acids can take diffrent pathways for fuel sources.

I am gonna have to read that again....lol


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## Aftershock

Is it not true that although protein can be converted into energy and stored in fat cells this process is more wasteful than the conversion of carbohydrates into fat?

I mean the conversion processes itself is less efficient?

A copy and paste

"Protein is at the top of the hierarchy of macronutrients, as far as the Thermogenic Effect goes. A whopping 27% (on average) of the calories you consume from protein are used in the process of digesting the protein. Most of this is attributed to the fact that the protein has to be broken down into amino acids which then can be made use of, which is a labor-intensive process intracellularly. If you were to consume 300 Calories in pure protein (such as by a pure protein powder, or eggwhites, or something similar), the Thermogenic Effect would burn off 81 of those calories just during the act of digestion, leaving you with 219 calories.

Calories consumed from carbohydrates experience a 7% (on average) Thermogenic Effect. This is quite a bit less than Calories from protein, but it's still one more strike against the "carbohydrates make you fat" theory. Part of the reason the Thermogenic Effect is so much lower for carbohydrates is that carbohydrates, in terms of human physiology, has been the food of choice longer than proteins. It tends to be more bioavailable, and depending on the glycemic index of the carbohydrate (whether the energy is released very quickly or very slowly), the Thermogenic Effect may be more or less than 7%. Low GI carbohydrates tend to have a slightly higher Thermogenic Effect because they are actively dispersing energy over a longer period of time. Yet another reason to avoid refined sugars--they're all very high up on the glycemic index.

Fats are in third place of the hierarchy, and I'm not saying last because I happen to place a large amount of value on fats. They have a pretty low Thermogenic Effect of 3%, on average, meaning that the Calories you think you're getting are, for the most part, the Calories you are getting. Fat is the most bioavailable macronutrient, hence the low amount of energy needed to make use of it"


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## Guest

300-400 depending on intake of other nutrients calories 4500-6000 per day depending on how i feel at a body weight of 225lb and climbing.

If your eating plenty of carbs and good fats protein doesnt have to be that high.


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## Tatyana

> Is it not true that although protein can be converted into energy and stored in fat cells this process is more wasteful than the conversion of carbohydrates into fat?
> 
> I mean the conversion processes itself is less efficient?


I am not sure if efficient is the way to look at it.

A lot of the reactions in metabolism have been studied right down to the enzyme kinetics, and it is know exactly how much energy is either given off or requirerd for the reaction to occur.

Sorry my memory is not that great, but it is referred to as the 'delta G'.

Glycolysis, the initial conversion of glucose to to pyruvate or lactate actually 'costs' energy at some points and only makes two ATP molecules, which is nada as far as metabolism goes.

It is about energy balance and what the body needs to convert substrates. Pyruvate yields a lot more ATP once it has gone through the Kreb's cycle and the electron transport chain.

I would have to check on all the energy balance for protein/AA metabolism, but basically, if it doesn't yield energy, or costs too much energy, the body doesn't do it.

If a reaction takes too much energy (delta G) it just doesn't happen (or it's reverse doesn't happen).

I am sure that those figures in your cut and paste came from some enzyme kinetics studies, or I would hope that they have, and they do have a wider range than what was stated.

A bit more on protein in the body and 'storage'.

In your bloodstream, there is roughly 60-80 g/L of protein and an average 70 kg man has 4 L of blood. This would include albumin and all of the immunoglobulins/antibodies, HDL, LDL, CRP, tranferrin, complement, alpha-1-antitrypsin, fibrinogen, prothrombin and other coagulation proteins and about 4-5 others I don't remember right now (there are actually 100s, but these make up the bulk of it)

Here is a basic list

http://www.sigmaaldrich.com/Area_of_Interest/Biochemicals/Enzyme_Explorer/Key_Resources/Plasma__Blood_Protein/Plasma_Protein_Composition.html

Albumin levels are decreased in malnutrition, so obviously it is used, and also less would be synthesised in the liver when someone is not getting enough food.

This is what I am doing this week in the lab, separating out all the basic blood proteins using electrophoresis.

It looks like DNA tests, but it is actually all the proteins in serum.

http://web.indstate.edu/thcme/micro/BLD-GEL.JPG


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## hackskii

Is it just me or did anyone else get some wood??????

I love this stuff even though I don't understand it.......lol

Great thread, oops, I did it........................Better said, one of the best threads I ever read......Due to the Quality posts........

I love you guys.........., oh girls too.....sorry....


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## Tatyana

hackskii said:


> Is it just me or did anyone else get some wood??????
> 
> I love this stuff even though I don't understand it.......lol
> 
> Great thread, oops, I did it........................Better said, one of the best threads I ever read......Due to the Quality posts........
> 
> I love you guys.........., oh girls too.....sorry....


LOL, yes but you are easy and on a cycle.

:whistling:


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## hackskii

Tatyana said:


> LOL, yes but you are easy and on a cycle.
> 
> :whistling:


Not that easy, I dont date men....lol

I have standards too.

They might be low but still, I have standards. :thumb:


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