# The fasted cardio debate



## Fullsquat (Apr 16, 2011)

Ok so I've been doing a little reading into this and this is what I've picked up from it. Appreciate opinions from you guys too.

Reet, I Like AA's studies so his is the one I take most of my points from,

Hiit vs LISS.

Hiit is rarley done by myself because imo its to intense and requires recovery time in itself. Not ideal when muscles are trying to recover from resistance training. Hiit has been proven to burn more cals and as a result more fat oxidisation over a period of time. LISS burns results in more cals burned from fat while actually doing the exercise but over a 24hr period they end up been around the same.

Obviously doing higher intensity will burn more cals, 30mins of LiSS vs 30mins of Hiit - Hiit will result in more cals burned overall BUT if we are cutting or even bulking we shoud be controlling our cals via diet. So imo the goal isn't to burn more cals overall, its to burn the most cals from fat stores not glycogen.

Even if the fact Hiit is better for retaining muscle mass is true, imo for a bodybuilder who resistance trains 4-5 times per week, the difference will be minimal out outweighed do to the fact (for me at least) it quite difficult to recover from a good HIIT session.

Now fasted LISS cardio vs fed LISS cardio.

This one I'm still unsure about, the study showed over a 24hr period there was no difference in the amount of fat burned between the two, and infact the fed group could benefit more because of the thermal affect from the carbs. AA keeps referring to the intensity been higher if you eaten as you can push harder therefore you can burn more cals. Imo the goal isn't to burn more cals overall its to burn more cals from fat. For a bodybuilder who is controlling cals via diet while bulking/cutting burning more and more overall cals isn't the point at all, if I need less cals to carry on cutting I'll reduce my daily intake.

He doesn't really mention a lot about muscle catabolism in the unfed subjects, just an apparent rise in nitrogen iirc, which is bad for maintaining muscle? I don't believe muscle catabolism Is that much more of a problem as long as daily macro's/nutrition is met.

Personally I quite like doing fasted cardio, as it sets me up for the day and gets it out of the way. But if fed LISS is better, due to the thermal effect then I see no reason why I couldn't have a banana before training.

What are peoples current views? This study was conducted in 2006, things must of changed since then?


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## massiccio (Nov 17, 2010)

LISS fasted for fat burn .

HIIT for cardio fitness,and for when fasted cardio first in the morning isn't pratical.

Even better , do a bit of both at the right time , and enjoy the different benefits.

Avoid HIIT fasted & LISS feeded

Edit : I mixed up terms . For HITT I meant cardio = 75-90% max Heartbeats mantained for some time


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## Fullsquat (Apr 16, 2011)

But is hiit better for cardio vascular fitness? Is 20-30mins of hiit more beneficial the 1hr of LISS for the heart?

And why avoid LISS fed?


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## massiccio (Nov 17, 2010)

Hiit will work on cardiovascular fitness and also burn calories

LISS will do little for cardio fitness, nil for pulmonary fitness.

Avoid LISS feed because is a pure waste of time , in my opinion. You may get the same health benefit as going for a hillwalk, after lunch. OK if you are an OP or a very sedentary person. For a young aspiring athlete , there are far better options.

Liss fasted work better with a evening carb cut off, say roughly 12 hours before LISS. Then the blood sugars should be below 5.6 and your body will use fat as energy source.

EDIT : I meant cardio , 80% max BpM , not HIIT .

Sunday morning fog!


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

Just a little quickie on the subject of the nutrient partitioning effect of timing meals in relation to cardio exercise.

Depending if you are a high carb eater or a high fat/low carb eater, it may be better to time meals differently around cardio to minimise net fat gain according to a couple of studies [will link them when I find them again].

If a high carber, workout fasted and then eat. This shows less net fat storage and more glycogen storage compared to eating eaxctly the same meal first and training after.

For a low carb high fat dieter, the result is the other way around - eat then do cardio an hour or so later. Less net bodyfat storage, and a greater intramuscular fat balance is shown when eating before training than when eating a high fat recovery meal after training.

In both studies they had the participants burn around 200 kcals from their workout and overfed them giving 500 kcals. The measurements to determine changes net fat balance were taken three hours (iirc) after the last activity in each situation (either meal or workout) and then again after twenty four hours of rest and normal eating.

The results showed that even after twenty four hours the difference between the timing of the meal on fat balance was still noticable... this suggests that the body doesn't 'make up' for the differences between timing the meals around exercise and cancel them out after later meals.


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## Fullsquat (Apr 16, 2011)

Well I'm the high carb eater, although I'm cutting my primary source of fuel is still carbs. So I guess fasted LISS is good for me.

What about the subject of HIIT? In your opinion?

Is the partioning info from leangains mate?


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## Fullsquat (Apr 16, 2011)

More opinions on this?


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## JoePro (Aug 26, 2009)

How is HIIT better for cardio, when it's an anaerobic movement?

I do hill sprints on an empty stomach, that's fine for me. I know loads of guys who do HIIT on an empty stomach too and that works just as well as LISS. I'd rather do 5x Hill sprints than 45 minutes of running when I get up.


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## Fullsquat (Apr 16, 2011)

JoePro said:


> How is HIIT better for cardio, when it's an anaerobic movement?
> 
> I do hill sprints on an empty stomach, that's fine for me. I know loads of guys who do HIIT on an empty stomach too and that works just as well as LISS. I'd rather do 5x Hill sprints than 45 minutes of running when I get up.


I don't think its better for cardio, I personally think LISS is with a little bit of hIIT now and again to break it up.

As a bodybuilder I'd say the main purpose for cardio is overall well-being and fat loss. LISS been the best for both imo, especially as I'd struggle to recover from resistance training 5 times a week and HIIT 3 times a week for eg, aswell.


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## JoePro (Aug 26, 2009)

Fullsquat said:


> I don't think its better for cardio, I personally think LISS is with a little bit of hIIT now and again to break it up.
> 
> As a bodybuilder I'd say the main purpose for cardio is overall well-being and fat loss. LISS been the best for both imo, especially as I'd struggle to recover from resistance training 5 times a week and HIIT 3 times a week for eg, aswell.


I was referring to massicco man.

And I do both really, fasted or post workout is both awesome for fat loss so do either, or both depending on how you feel. If your training 5x a week, then if your diet is right then you probably wont even need cardio haha. The way I see a good cut is more anaerobic work, and you lose more fat than you would doing more cardio. I read an article on it once. If you'd like me to find it bud let me know!


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## The Big Dog (Jul 13, 2009)

I would say try both. See what works best for the individual.


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## Fullsquat (Apr 16, 2011)

JoePro said:


> I was referring to massicco man.
> 
> And I do both really, fasted or post workout is both awesome for fat loss so do either, or both depending on how you feel. If your training 5x a week, then if your diet is right then you probably wont even need cardio haha. The way I see a good cut is more anaerobic work, and you lose more fat than you would doing more cardio. I read an article on it once. If you'd like me to find it bud let me know!


Stick it up if you can find it mate, worth a look for everyone and has relevance to this thread in a way.


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## The Ultimate Warrior (Dec 20, 2010)

I can't link you to any awesome studies or anything, what I can say is that I hate fasted cardio and find no real world benfit over eating and doing cardio. The only difference I notice in FAT loss is when I do 20-30 minutes sscv after a workout.

JP


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## Fullsquat (Apr 16, 2011)

Really world results and opinions are what I'm after too mate.

I'll stick in all the info into a little spreadsheet and perhaps make a little pie chart of the results.


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

The Big Dog said:


> I would say try both. See what works best for the individual.


could not agree more....

over the years i have tried both and for me HIIT does not suit me medium pace walking on a treadmill for 45 minutes gets me in the condition i need.....no matter what the studies tell me i lost more muscle in my legs doing HIIT on a calorie restrictive diet than i did will LISS


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## Fullsquat (Apr 16, 2011)

Pscarb said:


> could not agree more....
> 
> over the years i have tried both and for me HIIT does not suit me medium pace walking on a treadmill for 45 minutes gets me in the condition i need.....no matter what the studies tell me i lost more muscle in my legs doing HIIT on a calorie restrictive diet than i did will LISS


Fasted walking mate?


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

Fullsquat said:


> Fasted walking mate?


yes mate to start with then when i need to increase i add PWO


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## Fatstuff (Mar 2, 2010)

whats cardio?


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## engllishboy (Nov 1, 2007)

fatmanstan! said:


> whats cardio?


What's fasted cardio? I sleep eat.


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

engllishboy said:


> What's fasted cardio? I sleep eat.


Then you are very lucky


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## Fullsquat (Apr 16, 2011)

Pscarb said:


> Then you are very lucky


Or fat


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

Fullsquat said:


> Well I'm the high carb eater, although I'm cutting my primary source of fuel is still carbs. So I guess fasted LISS is good for me.
> 
> What about the subject of HIIT? In your opinion?
> 
> Is the partioning info from leangains mate?


When I do cardio I normally do three-four sessions a week and will do a couple HIIT and a couple steady state. In terms of which works best for me, both seem pretty similar for fat loss and for effects on muscle mass... but I rarely do cardio fasted as even when cutting and training in the morning I don't miss a meal first thing.


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## massiccio (Nov 17, 2010)

JoePro said:


> How is HIIT better for cardio, when it's an anaerobic movement?
> 
> I do hill sprints on an empty stomach, that's fine for me. I know loads of guys who do HIIT on an empty stomach too and that works just as well as LISS. I'd rather do 5x Hill sprints than 45 minutes of running when I get up.


 Absolutely !

I completely mixed up the terminology.

I wrote HIIT , I meant 80-90 % full max heart beat .

Sunday mornings...... :cursing:


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## Wevans2303 (Feb 18, 2010)

Always done fine with low intensity steady state 45 mins - 1 hour every day post workout, never fasted.

Fasted I feel light headed and flat.

HIIT I feel ****.


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## Fullsquat (Apr 16, 2011)

Dtlv74 said:


> When I do cardio I normally do three-four sessions a week and will do a couple HIIT and a couple steady state. In terms of which works best for me, both seem pretty similar for fat loss and for effects on muscle mass... but I rarely do cardio fasted as even when cutting and training in the morning I don't miss a meal first thing.


Didn't your study on page one state to workout fasted for the high carb eater? I'm guessing that's both cardio and resistance training?

So either your a high fat/ low carber or you don't follow that rule for cardio?


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