# 3 x 10 better for size than 4 x 6-8?



## Guest (Jan 10, 2006)

I'm training for size as opposed to strength, and my routine has always been 4 x 6-8. Considering that rep ranges are considered better to be higher for size, does anyone think it would be beter to train using 3x10?

Or a range of anywhere between 8-12 perhaps? If either is the case, does anyone know if I should be doing 3 sets as opposed to 4? I notice that is the trend with higher rep ranges too.

If someone's gonna say that it depends which bodypart, could they please give some examples as I wouldn't know which ones it would apply to - is that kind of thing dependant on size?

Answers appreciated!


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## Stu21Ldn (Mar 17, 2005)

just make sure you incorporate a varied rep range in your training, that way you got all the bases covered


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## Tom84 (Dec 12, 2005)

Reps for muscle gains

My goal is to help you reach your fitness dreams. In order to achieve this goal I must know what is going on in the real world trenches. Therefore I do not spend my time in a lab coat although I do have tremendous respect for some researchers. The mad scientist writing this article uses the gyms of Indiana University as his laboratory. My recommendations stem from my own research, which I conduct through several mediums including reading, consultations with fitness experts and real world experiments. Many of the concepts I will present to you diverge from conventional wisdom, but understand that there is method to my madness. Give these techniques a chance by applying them with sincere execution and you will succeed.

What are you trying to do in the gym? Gain muscle, lose fat, become stronger? Determine what you want to accomplish, and with the right information you can determine appropriate repetition schemes. When deciding what you want to accomplish remember to do one thing at a time. It is fine to have many different goals, but in the iron game you should focus on one dream at a time. One can achieve several goals over a time period by rotating the emphasis of training. In the following paragraphs I will explain how one can gain lean muscle mass.

I see many peculiar training methods while conducting "business" in the gym. My senses are tuned to observe what my peers are doing. One day I watched a gym regular blast off 25 reps of a standard barbell bicep curl. His form was very poor, and it was painful to watch as he bounced the bar off his groin region while violently swaying his back to gain extra momentum. The set took him less than 30 seconds to complete. He shouted at his friend and exclaimed "the more reps the better man, I will be ripped if I can keep doing more reps." I disagree for several reasons with his claims. Gravity did most of the work during his set in which he used a weight that would bring my grandmother to uncontrollable laughter. Furthermore he will not improve physically using this method unless he is a needle in a haystack genetic marvel.

Time Under Tension (TUT) is more than likely a term you have never heard, but it is time to take notice of this concept. TUT is simply the amount of time muscles are working during a set. Manipulation of this factor is a crucial part of the muscle-gaining quest. Sets must last between 40-70 seconds to elicit size gains. Firing off high numbers of reps at a rapid pace is not the way to break into desired TUT length. 10-12 reps is an ideal rep range for hypertrophy (muscle gain). The exact number of reps you perform depends on the load used. If you can do 10 reps then the weight you are using is adequate, but you must increase the load if you can perform 12 reps. The trainee must adjust the speed of each repetition in order to enter the desired TUT range.

Every repetition has four components, which can be easily measured or timed. The concentric phase of a lift is the way up, or the completion. Eccentric motion is the way down, which is when you lower a bar to your chest during a bench press rep. Isometric contractions take place at the point between the eccentric and concentric phases. For example pausing at the chest while maintaining tension is an isometric element. Finally the resetting point or top of the movement must be taken in consideration, which is merely the amount of time it takes you to reset after each rep.

Our bad form buddy mentioned previously takes advantage of the stretch-shortening cycle. This complex mechanism creates elastic energy, which will enable a trainee to lift more weight. This reflexive action should be taken advantage of by strength athletes who are most interested in performance. On the other hand those interested in growing must make the muscles do the work by deliberately controlling the time length of every rep.

Manipulating the tempo or length of each of these four phases is the next step. The eccentric motion should last 3 seconds, but the concentric phase must be fast. Move the load concentrically as fast you can safely with good form on every rep. Accelerating the load will recruit more muscle fibers, which is important for mass and strength gains. The isometric and resetting points should be one second each, and must be kept in exact time proportion. A bench press rep will take you three seconds to lower the bar, one second to pause, one second to lift and one second should be taken at the top of each rep to reset. It is easy to count off in your head after a couple of workouts. 3+1+1+1=6 seconds for each rep, and a ten rep set would take 60 seconds (10x6) putting you in the desired TUT range. Adjusting the TUT every three weeks will keep your muscles growing. Try lowering the number of reps and increasing the load per set while adjusting the tempo to stay within the proper ranges.

[email protected]

Train hard and smart!


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## Andy1981iron (Dec 16, 2004)

You say your training for size but it a lot of other posts you've said that you are on a 'strict cut'.

Do 1 or the other.


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## Guest (Jan 10, 2006)

:mrgreen:   ..nice spot andy...


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## finephysique (Dec 20, 2005)

Everyone is different it can take quite a while to work out what set and rep range works best for you, I do 12-20 sets per body part, with reps between 20 and 3 for various sets


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## Guest (Jan 10, 2006)

trigger1981iron said:


> You say your training for size but it a lot of other posts you've said that you are on a 'strict cut'.
> 
> Do 1 or the other.


I'm cutting to lose fat but my life goals is size as opposed to strength. Considering that there is no cutting-specific weights routine, surely this is a valid question?


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## Guest (Jan 10, 2006)

young gun said:


> Reps for muscle gains
> 
> My goal is to help you reach your fitness dreams. In order to achieve this goal I must know what is going on in the real world trenches. Therefore I do not spend my time in a lab coat although I do have tremendous respect for some researchers. The mad scientist writing this article uses the gyms of Indiana University as his laboratory. My recommendations stem from my own research, which I conduct through several mediums including reading, consultations with fitness experts and real world experiments. Many of the concepts I will present to you diverge from conventional wisdom, but understand that there is method to my madness. Give these techniques a chance by applying them with sincere execution and you will succeed.
> 
> ...


Very interesting read - I actually always use a basic TUT, which is making the whole movement last a good few seconds whilst keeping excellent posture of course, but the 3:1 second ratio was something I was unaware of. So... positive motion only 1 second, a second pause for both top and bottom and 3 seconds negative motion; gotcha, thanks!


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## Tom84 (Dec 12, 2005)

groovyguy said:


> trigger1981iron said:
> 
> 
> > You say your training for size but it a lot of other posts you've said that you are on a 'strict cut'.
> ...


You need to do a little more research. It would take me a long time to explain. Long and short is on a strict cut the only thing your gona be gaining are abs. No size no strength no muscle unless your on roids or a genetic freak. You can't do both at once. One requires a calorific excess the other requires a calorific deficit.


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## Guest (Jan 10, 2006)

young gun said:


> groovyguy said:
> 
> 
> > trigger1981iron said:
> ...


I thought that you could always gain lean muscle whilst cutting and even if I was only trying to maintain, surely the best way to maintain or make slight gains whilst cutting is going to be the same way as when not, plus when my cut's finished, I'd like to be prepared with all the knowledge so surely I can ask the question without being told off?


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## crazycal1 (Sep 21, 2005)

i may be wrong ,but didnt nick increase lean muscle while cutting after his first superdrol cycle :?:


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## Tom84 (Dec 12, 2005)

I don't mean to sound harsh mate but theres articles on every question you ask on almost every bodybuilding site there is. There is a poll on rep range from like a week ago on this board. Personally I think questions should be more a lack of understanding of something you are trying to grasp than just what rep range is best etc...

maintaining and gaining are not the same. You can work hard and if you get your cut spot on you can just about maintain your muscle mass but its incredibly difficult. You can't gain whilst cutting. Gaining requires a calorific excess which on a cut you won't have otherwise you won't lose fat


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## nick500 (Dec 12, 2005)

crazycal1 said:


> i may be wrong ,but didnt nick increase lean muscle while cutting after his first superdrol cycle :?:


i think this was because I really hit my legs hard and hadn't fully reached my plateau on them yet - my legs got a lot bigger on SD and continued that growth through PCT.

Yes i lost fat and gained muscle, but it was only over a short period of time, like 6 weeks.

To think that you can sustain it is pretty much impossible without s**t loads of gear !

Nick


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## Guest (Jan 11, 2006)

if u always do 4 x 6/8 what you need is some variation. you can either do 3 x 10 for a couple of months, or do 3 x 10 with a couple of 1/2 or 3 rep maxes at the end.

Taking BenchPress as an example do 3 x 10 pyramid for example maybe you can only do 10 reps of 100kg, so dropping it do then to 90kg would allow you to do a further 10 then down to 80kg for your last set of 10.

Where as staying on the same weight wouldn't allow you to do 3 x 10.

This is still heavy training and will build strength and mass.

You can also use this method maybe do a starting weight of 100kg then do a 1 rep max at say 140kg.

Then drop back down to 100kg for 8.

Then upto 130kg for 1 or 2.

Then back down to 100kg for 6 etc, only thing that will limit your training is your imagination.

I never keep my training the same and always do the above on different weeks, so long as your putting on mass and you test your 1 rep max and it goes up every month you should come on just fine.

What ive been currently doing is before Christmas i was doing heavy 1 rep sets, 2 rep sets, 3 rep sets etc.

Then getting in some light 3 x 10 at the end of the same weight.

This side of Christmas im doing 3 x 10 only for a variation of at least 4 exercises on chest.

I still and will expect to increase in strength and size.

BTW, Mass goes hand in hand with Strength, if you put weight on you will put strength on.

Thats why you only see 20+stone strongmen, their bodyweight is what puts them in the league of strongman.


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## Guest (Jan 11, 2006)

young gun said:


> I don't mean to sound harsh mate but theres articles on every question you ask on almost every bodybuilding site there is. There is a poll on rep range from like a week ago on this board. Personally I think questions should be more a lack of understanding of something you are trying to grasp than just what rep range is best etc...
> 
> maintaining and gaining are not the same. You can work hard and if you get your cut spot on you can just about maintain your muscle mass but its incredibly difficult. You can't gain whilst cutting. Gaining requires a calorific excess which on a cut you won't have otherwise you won't lose fat


Yes, there are articles on every question you ask on almost every bodybuilding site, however there are also articles on other bodybuilding sites that contradict the other sites. I wanted to talk to real gym-goers like myself to see what their take on it is. Every question on MC can probably be answered on a bodybuilding site so perhaps we should just shut MC down?

A poll does nothing for explanation and I looked at it. Surely it's worth my time typing as I'm after reassurance and other people's time IF they want to contribute, if not they can ignore the thread?

I know that you can gain a small amount of muscle whilst cutting (http://www.thefactsaboutfitness.com/research/gain.htm/), with a smaller calorie deficit , cutting at a slower rate but that's beside the point... as I said earlier: "even if I was only trying to maintain, surely the best way to maintain...whilst cutting is going to be the same way as when not?", meaning that the best routine to cut with to prevent muscle loss would be the same one that promotes the best size gains if that is my non-cutting goal? Plus I won't be cuttin forever so why not get clued up now?



TheDaddy2003 said:


> BTW, Mass goes hand in hand with Strength, if you put weight on you will put strength on.


Yes they do but not necessarily in a ratio of 1:1, I wouldn't train if I only got bigger with no strength gains but muscle fibres can be stimulated in different ways to promote different results:

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/hale6.htm

http://www.timinvermont.com/fitness/vs.htm

http://www.illpumpyouup.com/articles/size-training-vs-strength-training.htm


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## Tom84 (Dec 12, 2005)

Oh this is just getting ridiculous. That study was done with overweight individuals training for the first time. Yes in the first 6 months of training uncommon results will happen.

Secondly I already posted what bodybuilding sites are for. Grasping topics you have researched and are unsure of. IE. everybody says glutamin is crap but supplement companies say its awesome what have been peoples results with it.

Why do I have to take account of electrolytes when using MP.

And for crying out loud do some research. No the best routines when cutting are not the best routines when bulking for some people, they are for others. It depends. Some people drop volume in the weights room when cutting otherwise they overtrain and are continually falling into a state of catabolism due to the extra amount of cardio. Some don't.

There are thousands of articles written by real gym goers. They aren't all written by scientists.

Your starting to wind me up posting things I read about 4 years ago and attempting to contradict me (http://www.thefactsaboutfitness.com/research/gain.htm/), with ridiculous info.


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## Mr Nice (Jan 7, 2006)

For size I use the 6-12 rep range to failure which uses the 2b anarobic fibers which are the best for growth.


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## Guest (Jan 11, 2006)

young gun said:


> Oh this is just getting ridiculous. That study was done with overweight individuals training for the first time. Yes in the first 6 months of training uncommon results will happen.
> 
> Secondly I already posted what bodybuilding sites are for. Grasping topics you have researched and are unsure of. IE. everybody says glutamin is crap but supplement companies say its awesome what have been peoples results with it.
> 
> ...


That's a good point actually, they were beginners. Still, it the concept of gaining lean muscle whilst cuttig has been around for a while and is widely believed to be possible without supps.

Different routines when cutting seems to be what you are suggesting yet these guys have already advised me that probably isn't the case. http://www.musclechat.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=4213&highlight=

Regarding what muscle forums are for, my 'ignore it' point still stands, plus most of the people here to my knowledge are BBers yet I see alot of 4 x 6-8 stuff going around, hence my questions regarding 3 x 10 or higher, therefore I wanted to clarify that fact against what BBing sites say. Surely THAT'S a valid question?

I suggest you take a chill pill BTW; if I'm being so moronic why isn't everyone hounding me?

Mr. Nice, thanks - useful info.


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## Tom84 (Dec 12, 2005)

Right last reply. No one with half a brain thinks its widely believed that you can cut and bulk at the same time its extremly difficult. To say its widely believed and has been for a while is a joke. It's also widely believed that glutamin works or that muscletech products are good.

The only people who believe this are either

1. Uneducated and pathetically hopeful

2. Extremly educated and can manipulate there body in this way

or 3. Genetically gifted and can do this from personal experience.

I didn't advise you to do anything I pointed out you MAY need to change because its about what works for you the replies in the thread you posted made that pretty clear.

Finally for f**ks sake there isn't a holy grail to bodybuilding otherwise we would all train exactly the same way and all be competitors. People change reps, sets, time, carbs fats, proteins, sleep, supplements and many other variables. Some people have huge calves genetically some people have s**t calves but there arms grow like weeds. The question whats the best routine, or should I do this etc is a joke because you can't ever say.

You can ask would this be overtraining do you guys think as I've been training for 6 weeks with x amount of sets and got no gains so something is wrong. I guy might say I do the same thing Iv'e gained 10 pounds. That doesn't mean its gonna work for you.

I know guys who train for 45 mins I know guys who train for 2 hours. I know guys who train 5 times a week, I know guys who train once every 4 days.

The guys who post 6 - 8 respond genetically better to this rep range. The guys who post 10 - 12 respond genetically better to this rep range. Its that simple. I will be completely ignoring your posts from now on as you have asked I should have done that when you started banging on about not eating chicken.


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## nick500 (Dec 12, 2005)

groovyguy said:


> young gun said:
> 
> 
> > Oh this is just getting ridiculous. That study was done with overweight individuals training for the first time. Yes in the first 6 months of training uncommon results will happen.
> ...


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## Tom84 (Dec 12, 2005)

ahhhhhh sense. Thank god for that


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## Guest (Jan 12, 2006)

young gun said:


> Right last reply. No one with half a brain thinks its widely believed that you can cut and bulk at the same time its extremly difficult.


*If it makes any difference, I have a form of autism called Asperger's Syndrome, which is classed as a learning disability - it's difficult to explain how it affects understanding, but you know the 'instinctive', 'common sense' parts of the brain? They basically don't exist - people like me aren't good with shades of grey so to speak, and 'finding the right thing' or 'what comes naturally' is a virtual impossibility for us.*

http://www.udel.edu/bkirby/asperger/

http://users.wpi.edu/~trek/aspergers.html

I am not stupid, I am aware that to 'bulk', you need a significant calorie excess, and to 'cut', you need a deficit, but the belief is that I'd heard of by many on another board a while back was that a small enough deficit and a slow enough cut will allow some energy to go towards muscle gains - hell, last time I cut I went up on squats, SLDLs and calf-raises and I was only taking creatine with it. I never said '"bulk and cut"; I said "gain a *slight* amount of muscle", and that was an 'if'.

One's belief in something does not make them stupid; uneducated perhaps (or rather lacking knowedge in that area, I'm doing a degree but obviously not anythingregarding the human body, eh?). You say that everyone's different and yet many people disagree and say that one type of training is always more suited to a type of goal, and that in itself is another point of discussion. That's your opinion, and even if you are right which you may well be, that's what discussion is for isn't it? To explain how and why, not just blam blam blam 'actually it's this way, you should accept it' - you haven't once explained how or why it's that way bar the post you just made (and that wasn't hardcore evidence, just loose references), but you were irritated already because I didn't adopt your mode of thinking despite your lack of explanation as to why I should. Anyway, I thought one golden rule which applies to every BBer or strength trainer was not to train much past an hour (as it invites catabolicism) yet you know someone who trains for 2 - we are all human and therefore similar to some extent aren't we?

Nick, you make a point that it's not worth the energy to try and convince me, but I wasn't arguing the point blind; that was my belief. If I'm so obviously wrong, you could just tell me in what way I am wrong rather than call me moronic for saying that my belief like I'm some suicidal religious fundamentalist.

I wasn't looking for a hard and fast, just a point in the right direction and what to try if one thing isn't any good. As it is, I'm left pretty much more confused than before. And TBH, I'm getting pretty frustrated too. You're right; I won't bother coming back to the forum, I'll scour all these BBing sites for anything else, and decide on my own.


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## Tom84 (Dec 12, 2005)

Ok I know I said no more replies but I now feel I have to. Ah hypocrisy

1. First of all and most importantly congratulations on your taking of a degree, I apologize if you can't handle concepts that are simply not black and white unfortuantely bodybuilding isn't. I wasn't aware Asperger's affected people like this I thought it was more concerned with an incapability to grasp social norms and interaction.

Secondly you said gaining lean muscle whilst cutting. You did not mention the word slight but no matter. This is possible simply as the more lean muscle you gain the more your bf drops as a ratio. And when just starting this is possible IMV. But at no other times

Thirdly training past an hour does not invite catabolism in everyone. Yes of course we are similar to some extent but very differnt in others. All you have to do to figure that out is look at the body compisiton of black 100m sprinters compared to white or asian 100m sprinters to know genetics play a very large role.

Fourthly I have already told you why you are wrong. You didn't listen that was Nick's point.

And Asperger's syndrome would make no difference to your capability to realize your bodily reaction to different methods of training all that requires is a tape measure a scale and a notebook.

You continually disagree and try to point out error's I make with incorrect statements that don't really prove anything

'You say that everyone's different and yet I thought one golden rule which aplies to every BBer or strength trainer was not to train much past an hour (as it invites catabolicism) yet you know someone who trains for 2 - we are all human and therefore similar to some extent aren't we? ' This proves my point. Yes you shouldn't train for over an hour is a base rule. As is get protein every 3 hours. But many guys I know train this way with good results. Some people high carbs works for others it doesn't.

Its different for everyone. To try and end this thread. Try training in a number of different ways to see what works for you. If you wish to have a detailed routine look up garry's beginners routine for exact guidance.


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## Mr Nice (Jan 7, 2006)

You want to be silly ok.


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