# High Fat or High Carb bulking?



## J4MES

^^^^^^^^^


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## bail

When it comes to bulking imo their are pros and cons of both approaches, as with everything in bbing their are many ways to skin a cat,

I think it's really down to body type and the level of condition the person is pre "bulk"

For example myself little bit chubby having couple weeks of training diet (hernia op)

Ill prob start at a low carb highish fat approach

If training is pm something like this

P/f

P/f

P/c

Train carbs intra

P/c

P/f

As conditions improves I'll slowly start reducing fats upping carbs in meals (in accordance to insulin sensitivity)

However keep in mind a lot of bigger guys like to use a lot of slin in the off-season small amounts with every meal, thus carbs with every meal are compulsory however I would just keep slin in maybe pre and post so have carbs at those times, I will start having carbs with more meals as I do think it keeps leptin levels higher, however this is only so if your already in good condition and relatively insulin senstive.

But I personally even peak off season not having carbs with every meal (for my body type)


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## Gear82

Carbs do not get stored as fat in significant amounts in the human body. The body would rather burn them off as fuel.

Fat is the preferred storage macro in the human body and easily stored.

For that reason alone id go high carbs for muscle gain.


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## J4MES

bail said:


> When it comes to bulking imo their are pros and cons of both approaches, as with everything in bbing their are many ways to skin a cat,
> 
> I think it's really down to body type and the level of condition the person is pre "bulk"
> 
> For example myself little bit chubby having couple weeks of training diet (hernia op)
> 
> Ill prob start at a low carb highish fat approach
> 
> If training is pm something like this
> 
> P/f
> 
> P/f
> 
> P/c
> 
> Train carbs intra
> 
> P/c
> 
> P/f
> 
> As conditions improves I'll slowly start reducing fats upping carbs in meals (in accordance to insulin sensitivity)
> 
> However keep in mind a lot of bigger guys like to use a lot of slin in the off-season small amounts with every meal, thus carbs with every meal are compulsory however I would just keep slin in maybe pre and post so have carbs at those times, I will start having carbs with more meals as I do think it keeps leptin levels higher, however this is only so if your already in good condition and relatively insulin senstive.
> 
> But I personally even peak off season not having carbs with every meal (for my body type)





Gear82 said:


> Carbs do not get stored as fat in significant amounts in the human body. The body would rather burn them off as fuel.
> 
> Fat is the preferred storage macro in the human body and easily stored.
> 
> For that reason alone id go high carbs for muscle gain.


I've read mixed opinions online. A lot of them have been 30-50g healthy fats per a meal (mono fats like EVOO, avocado etc), combined with carbs also.

I've tried to find some ifbb pro diets online as I don't believe the ones in the magazines for a second! A lot of them are eating 150-200g fat a day but also eating 800 + carbs and 400 + protein so I guess it balances out.

Have also read eating fats while on insulin or should I say in the active window of slin is a myth and it won't make you fat?.....


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## Shreddedbeef

Gear82 said:


> Carbs do not get stored as fat in significant amounts in the human body. The body would rather burn them off as fuel.
> 
> Fat is the preferred storage macro in the human body and easily stored.
> 
> For that reason alone id go high carbs for muscle gain.


Where have you got this I fo from mate, it's incorrect..


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## Gear82

Shreddedbeef said:


> Where have you got this I fo from mate, it's incorrect..


Ive read it in a few places online and some books. How We Get Fat | BodyRecomposition There is a Lyle Mcdonald link.

Basically my understanding is, fat loses like 3% energy when its converted from fat to "fat storage" whilst carbs lose 25% of its energy when its converted from carbs to fat. But the truth is, carbs dont get stored as fats in significant amounts and only under rare circumstances.


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## Gear82

Shreddedbeef said:


> Where have you got this I fo from mate, it's incorrect..


Ive read it in a few places online and some books. There is a Lyle Mcdonald link online. I did post this earlier but it stated it needed a moderator to check my post. So your best off just searching.

From the link:

"However, since I know most of you will have just ignored my suggestion to actually read that piece, I'm going to summarize a few points from it (as well as from the Q&A):

Carbs are rarely converted to fat and stored as such

When you eat more carbs you burn more carbs and less fat; eat less carbs and you burn less carbs and more fat

Protein is basically never going to be converted to fat and stored as such

When you eat more protein, you burn more protein (and by extension, less carbs and less fat); eat less protein and you burn less protein (and by extension, more carbs and more fat)

Ingested dietary fat is primarily stored, eating more of it doesn't impact on fat oxidation to a significant degree"

Basically my understanding is, fat loses like 3% energy when its converted from fat to "fat storage" whilst carbs lose 25% of its energy when its converted from carbs to fat. But the truth is, carbs dont get stored as fats in significant amounts and only under rare circumstances.


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## Frandeman

J4MES said:


> ^^^^^^^^^


40% protein

40% carbs

20% fats


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## J4MES

Do any of you guys count macros from all of the foods or just from the source it's self?

Example counting fat from chicken or just counting the protein content. Then using a fat source to get desired fat intake from the meal?


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## Gear82

Count every gram of fat, carbs and protein.


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## bail

J4MES said:


> Do any of you guys count macros from all of the foods or just from the source it's self?
> 
> Example counting fat from chicken or just counting the protein content. Then using a fat source to get desired fat intake from the meal?


If I'm dieting I'll work it out on a app which takes into account all food sources. However bulking more likely to count from the source eg chicken and almond butter just take the fat from the almond butter into account


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## bail

J4MES said:


> I've read mixed opinions online. A lot of them have been 30-50g healthy fats per a meal (mono fats like EVOO, avocado etc), combined with carbs also.
> 
> I've tried to find some ifbb pro diets online as I don't believe the ones in the magazines for a second! A lot of them are eating 150-200g fat a day but also eating 800 + carbs and 400 + protein so I guess it balances out.
> 
> Have also read eating fats while on insulin or should I say in the active window of slin is a myth and it won't make you fat?.....


James watts off season can go up to 1000gram carbs a day think that's what gave him his hernia,

Now gets a lot more kcals from fats,

Personally I just base it on current condition and gentics

If someone is lean all year round their more likely to be able to handle a lot of carbs, if someone is a little fatter better to start with majority meals fat/pro and slowly edge toward as above stated 40/40/20 split


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## Boshlop

i start with high fats and taper them down while upping carbs. i cut in a very low carb diet so i find this stops rebound while transitioning to bulking and as soon as i see water or fat appearing too fast i just step back a tad on the carbs and tend to stay pretty lean.

may take a month to find the diet im going to use, but i dont gain fat or lose muscle doing it, may build some if any and id prefer to not gain or lose anything than gain the fat.


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## J4MES

Gear82 said:


> Count every gram of fat, carbs and protein.


But then surely if your consistent with your offseason diet you should be able to taper manipulate your diet by reducing carb intake etc?

Reading a lot of pro diets and it's cup of this etc... But thanks not overalls accurate if you want a specific gram of carbs fats per a meal!


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## Gear82

My wording may not be accurate explaining it tonight but I found this from the fao website.

*Effects of diet composition during positive energy balance*

It is during periods of positive energy balance that differences in carbohydrate and fat have the greatest impact upon body weight regulation. This is because of differences in the efficiency of metabolic pathways involved in disposing of excess carbohydrate vs. fat. One study (107) demonstrated that while the majority of excess energy is stored regardless of its composition, a greater proportion of excess energy is stored when the excess is from fat as compared to when the excess is from carbohydrate. This is a clear example of a situation where fat intake leads to more body energy storage than the same amount of energy from carbohydrate.


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## bail

Gear82 said:


> Ive read it in a few places online and some books. There is a Lyle Mcdonald link online. I did post this earlier but it stated it needed a moderator to check my post. So your best off just searching.
> 
> From the link:
> 
> "However, since I know most of you will have just ignored my suggestion to actually read that piece, I'm going to summarize a few points from it (as well as from the Q&A):
> 
> Carbs are rarely converted to fat and stored as such
> 
> When you eat more carbs you burn more carbs and less fat; eat less carbs and you burn less carbs and more fat
> 
> Protein is basically never going to be converted to fat and stored as such
> 
> When you eat more protein, you burn more protein (and by extension, less carbs and less fat); eat less protein and you burn less protein (and by extension, more carbs and more fat)
> 
> Ingested dietary fat is primarily stored, eating more of it doesn't impact on fat oxidation to a significant degree"
> 
> Basically my understanding is, fat loses like 3% energy when its converted from fat to "fat storage" whilst carbs lose 25% of its energy when its converted from carbs to fat. But the truth is, carbs dont get stored as fats in significant amounts and only under rare circumstances.


This is true if insulin is not present. Ie a carb/pro meal within reason if carbs a decent gi should increase leptin,

Same as a fat/pro meal

Insulin is low v unlikely to get stored as fat.

Now carb pro fat meal carbs and fat more likely to get stored as fat (especially if one is fat and insulin insensitive)

However the question is not what is most effective to diet on but effective to bulk on

This is why I tend to lean toward a set up that allows for a few just pro/fat meals to increase insulin sensitivity and really make the most of the carbs you are consuming.

However this is not for everyone as stated if your that guy super quick metabolism abs easily held etc carbs could easily be handled every meal.

However do remember also for the purpose of cal intake fats a v easy dense way to get them in, especially for those guys who need to hit big numbers with cals


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## Ultrasonic

J4MES said:


> Do any of you guys count macros from all of the foods or just from the source it's self?
> 
> Example counting fat from chicken or just counting the protein content. Then using a fat source to get desired fat intake from the meal?


There is no particular reason not to count everything as it's so easy with something like myfitnesspal. Oats have 8 g of fat per 100 g for example, which is hardly insignificant.

Personally I wouldn't go below 20% of total calories from fat, since 20-30% is now recommended for general health.


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## nWo

I just count protein and calories, I don't bother counting carbs and fats. I just eat sensibly and allow them to come as they are. Plenty of low GI carbs before a workout and some simple carbs during and straight after, that's the only time I make a conscious effort in selecting a meal based on its carb or fat content.


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## Gear82

J4MES said:


> But then surely if your consistent with your offseason diet you should be able to taper manipulate your diet by reducing carb intake etc?
> 
> Reading a lot of pro diets and it's cup of this etc... But thanks not overalls accurate if you want a specific gram of carbs fats per a meal!


When it comes to the pro's they are enhanced so their diets and caloric intake will be off the charts. They can get away with a lot more on and off season because of various chemicals. If your an average lifter natural or not then its best to be accurate writing down your caloric intakes gram for gram to see how you respond. Otherwise you could end up too fat thus extending your cutting season which sucks.


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## UkWardy

Bulking on Tren at the minute so I'm trying

40 p

40 c

20 f

Going well so far


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## TommyBananas

Shreddedbeef said:


> Where have you got this I fo from mate, it's incorrect..


 No it is not incorrect.


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## TommyBananas

bail said:


> This is true if insulin is not present. Ie a carb/pro meal within reason if carbs a decent gi should increase leptin,
> 
> Same as a fat/pro meal
> 
> Insulin is low v unlikely to get stored as fat.
> 
> Now carb pro fat meal carbs and fat more likely to get stored as fat (especially if one is fat and insulin insensitive)
> 
> However the question is not what is most effective to diet on but effective to bulk on
> 
> This is why I tend to lean toward a set up that allows for a few just pro/fat meals to increase insulin sensitivity and really make the most of the carbs you are consuming.
> 
> However this is not for everyone as stated if your that guy super quick metabolism abs easily held etc carbs could easily be handled every meal.
> 
> However do remember also for the purpose of cal intake fats a v easy dense way to get them in, especially for those guys who need to hit big numbers with cals


I see you're at it again.


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## bail

TommyBananas said:


> I see you're at it again.


You lifting grown up weights yet buddy??


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## TommyBananas

bail said:


> You lifting grown up weights yet buddy??


Nice response, draconian


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## Jalex

Probably won't make a difference as log as the calorie surplus is the same.

The pro is high carbs allows you to eat more , due to the lower calorie content per g. (This could be a con, if you didn't have a huge appetite)


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## bail

TommyBananas said:


> Nice response, draconian


Thannnnnks personally when it comes to nutrition I would rather go by the opnion of , milos, John meadows Evan centopani, then the likes of someone who's 9 stone ringing wet and can't bench Into triple figures yet??

You not agree,??


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## bail

Jalex said:


> Probably won't make a difference as log as the calorie surplus is the same.
> 
> The pro is high carbs allows you to eat more , due to the lower calorie content per g. (This could be a con, if you didn't have a huge appetite)


I would also say me personally and a lot hungrier if I eat carbs all day,

If I stick with mainly fat/pro meals appetite dies Down v quick


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## Huntingground

I have done both approaches and can confidently state that high carb is the best way for me. I stay leaner, am hungrier and have more energy in the gym.


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## lukeyybrown1

Personally if I am bulking I try to make sure firstly I am in a CALORIE surplus (If your maintenance is 3500 then eat 4000 for a number of weeks until you stop gaining then you need to add more calories in, once people understand you need to eat in a surplus it is rather easy to adjust protein/carbs/fats etc around that)

myself I go;

carbs 500-600g

protein 250-300g

fats 50g

yes clean, whole meals with maybe one or two protein shakes

I split this up into around 6 meals throughout the day.

I will do this for a number of weeks, and also throw cheat meals in and also lower my carbs on certain days then carb back up etc always shocking the body.

CARBS are lovely for looking and feeling full. providing they are clean, your not gonna get fat.

use 2iu slin before each meal... its lovely

my main carb source is white rice...... it digests so nicely and I am hungry again 2hrs later which is great as digestion is so important


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## Major Eyeswater

Gear82 said:


> Carbs do not get stored as fat in significant amounts in the human body. The body would rather burn them off as fuel.
> 
> Fat is the preferred storage macro in the human body and easily stored.
> 
> For that reason alone id go high carbs for muscle gain.


This is correct, but it's only half the story.

Carbs generally do not get converted to fat - but they will do if your glycogen stores are maxed out and there is nowhere else to put them.

High carb intake upregulates the glycolytic energy pathways and downregulates the lipolytic. In plain English, this means that high carbs in causes the body to switch to predominantly carb burning, and the fats that you eat get shunted towards storage instead of being burned for energy. Low carb diets downregulate carb burning and upregulate fat burning.

Theoretically, the body burns so many calories per day, so it shouldn't matter whether the majority of those calories are coming from fats or carbs, because the metabolism switches fuel depending on what's coming in. In practice though, people tend to respond to high carbs or high fats differently - which is why there is never any agreement on which one is the best.


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## ohh_danielson

I would always go for higher carbs as opposed to fat for bulking. I know your body can use fats for fuel instead of carbs but I prefer carbs and I think the body does too.

40/40/20 is too generic for my liking too, it's good for starting out I suppose but I always work out my protein and fats needs, then use carbs for the remaining calories. So I don't use percentages tbh, I mean if I was to work it out it might work out something like 50c/21f/29p.

Then when I stop gaining I just up my kcals/carbs a little more.


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## TommyBananas

bail said:


> Thannnnnks personally when it comes to nutrition I would rather go by the opnion of , milos, John meadows Evan centopani, then the likes of someone who's 9 stone ringing wet and can't bench Into triple figures yet??
> 
> You not agree,??


John Meadows [email protected]@[email protected]@[email protected]@[email protected]@[email protected]@[email protected]@


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## bail

TommyBananas said:


> John Meadows [email protected]@[email protected]@[email protected]@[email protected]@[email protected]@[email protected]@


Wanna explain??


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## 3752

J4MES said:


> Do any of you guys count macros from all of the foods or just from the source it's self?
> 
> Example counting fat from chicken or just counting the protein content. Then using a fat source to get desired fat intake from the meal?


i only count the macro i am eating the food for, there are a few exceptions like whole eggs but in general i would only count the carbs from Oats and not the Pro or Fat.....

as for the comment about the body not storing carbs as fat in significant amounts is incorrect, no matter what you have read and by who if you burn 3000cals a day but you eat 6000cals from carbs you will store a shed load of fat........so as a blanket statement it is very incorrect, as a statement concerning energy from foods in a balanced diet then there is some value in it but only because Carbns are the preferred form of energy for the body......


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## J4MES

Pscarb said:


> i only count the macro i am eating the food for, there are a few exceptions like whole eggs but in general i would only count the carbs from Oats and not the Pro or Fat.....
> 
> as for the comment about the body not storing carbs as fat in significant amounts is incorrect, no matter what you have read and by who if you burn 3000cals a day but you eat 6000cals from carbs you will store a shed load of fat........so as a blanket statement it is very incorrect, as a statement concerning energy from foods in a balanced diet then there is some value in it but only because Carbns are the preferred form of energy for the body......


Thanks for your input Paul. Do you think there's much difference between a P/F of P/C or P/C/F meals?

Have you had experience with a higher fat bulking diet? If so how high did you go and how did it compare to a higher carb diet?

I know Bostin loyd preaches a higher fat diet but to be honest I don't really listen to anything he says lol


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## 3752

please don't use anything Boston Lloyd says as anything knowledgable...........

of course there is a difference between P/C, P/F, P/C/F meals....but does it make a huge difference to most...no i do not think so not in general......

it is true that many will react better with P/F over P/C meals in certain situations, i find those who have a natural high metabolism it makes zero difference if they use P/F/C opposed to the other options....

for me when dieting i react much better by having P/F or P/C meals at certain times of the day, i have found this to be the case for most i have coached......especially when dieting.

in the off season you can be more flexible, plus adding fats to a P/C meal will slow down the digestion of the meal as well as helping control insulin release......

there is no one way that trumps all others for anyone to say otherwise is either blinded or just plain stupid........best advice is to use a trial and error approach this is by the best way to determine what best suits you.


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## bail

J4MES said:


> Thanks for your input Paul. Do you think there's much difference between a P/F of P/C or P/C/F meals?
> 
> Have you had experience with a higher fat bulking diet? If so how high did you go and how did it compare to a higher carb diet?
> 
> I know Bostin loyd preaches a higher fat diet but to be honest I don't really listen to anything he says lol


So does John meadows, Evan centopani, Jason huh (to a extent low carb all year anyway), Dave palumbo

But then Alot if pros (anyone working with goarge farah for eg) likes the high carb approach low or none intra though


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## Big Man 123

Eating a high fat high protein diet is ridiculous, excess protein won't convert into more muscle and you don't need fats for energy, excess fats = getting fat.

As obvious as it is (still people don't get it) the main source of energy are carbs, so a high carb, moderate protein, low fat diet is what you should be eating.

Also by eating a lot of carbs you will widen the amount of protein used for building muscle.

That's why there are people abusing protein, because they scared of carbs and think that abusing fats will yield an insane amount of testosterone release (how ridiculous is that), so they eat less carbs than they should and PRESTO! their bodies take a considerable part of their protein intake for energy.

I don't care who says what, size doesn't mean knowledge, it only means you were eating a surplus of calories and lifting weights for a considerable amount of years, the best coach in regards of training, nutrition and steroids I know is skinny as a twig, so judging someone's knowledge by his size is as retarded as neglecting carbs from the diet.


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## liam0810

at the moment i'm on meals

meal 1 p/f

meal 2 p/f

meal 3 p/f

meal 4 p/c

meal 5 p/c

meal 6 p/c

meal 7 p/f

and i feel better for it. less bloated then when i'm on a high carb diet. weight is creeping up slower than when on higher carb diet but i dont feel as watery. regards the science i havent got a clue but for me i am preferring the high fats and protein and moderate carbs.


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## J4MES

liam0810 said:


> at the moment i'm on meals
> 
> meal 1 p/f
> 
> meal 2 p/f
> 
> meal 3 p/f
> 
> meal 4 p/c
> 
> meal 5 p/c
> 
> meal 6 p/c
> 
> meal 7 p/f
> 
> and i feel better for it. less bloated then when i'm on a high carb diet. weight is creeping up slower than when on higher carb diet but i dont feel as watery. regards the science i havent got a clue but for me i am preferring the high fats and protein and moderate carbs.


Try me out on this darling 

Only reason I started find out info on this as Dave palumbo preaches it so it got me thinking.

I see Scott normally likes a keto diet when shredding up. Does he incorporate this method in his offseasons? Higher fat lower carbs?


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## bail

liam0810 said:


> at the moment i'm on meals
> 
> meal 1 p/f
> 
> meal 2 p/f
> 
> meal 3 p/f
> 
> meal 4 p/c
> 
> meal 5 p/c
> 
> meal 6 p/c
> 
> meal 7 p/f
> 
> and i feel better for it. less bloated then when i'm on a high carb diet. weight is creeping up slower than when on higher carb diet but i dont feel as watery. regards the science i havent got a clue but for me i am preferring the high fats and protein and moderate carbs.


I like this split even if I'm grafting during the day I find it v good when it comes to energy levels may add small amount of carbs in meal 2 but that it


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## 3752

just to put this out there....excess calories from P/F/C will be stored as fat.......here is a tip do not eat in excess if you do not want to get fat....


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## Big Man 123

Just to clarify, the thread is about bulking and so I posted, for shredding fat the world is different.


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## liam0810

J4MES said:


> Try me out on this darling
> 
> Only reason I started find out info on this as Dave palumbo preaches it so it got me thinking.
> 
> I see Scott normally likes a keto diet when shredding up. Does he incorporate this method in his offseasons? Higher fat lower carbs?


yeah Scott eats like that year round really. he prefers high fats to high carbs


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## dtlv

High carb works well but to make it work you also have to go very low fat - nice read here: If You Go "High Carb", You Better Go Really High! Seven Meals/Day, More than 800g of Carbs, Less Than 50g of Fat & 1000kcal Over Maintenance and Still "Lean Gains"! - SuppVersity: Nutrition and Exercise Science for Everyone


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