# Cardio before breakfast



## Hera (May 6, 2011)

Sorry if this sounds like a stupid question, but could someone please explain the biology behind something...

...I've heard a lot about doing cardio when having either a low calorie day or before having breakfast. What I don't understand is is that mathematically it would make sense that regardless of when you do cardio you will eventually be taking in calories of which unused calories will be stored...whether it be before or after cardio. I understand that it isn't about maths...there's biology involved, so can someone exaplin it to me please?


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## clairey.h (Feb 8, 2009)

the way I understand it is if you do LI fasted cardio in the morning your blood sugar is low and your body will turn fat into fuel by taking energy from your fat reserves......

thats in simple terms so I can understand it sure someone can answer you more techniquely :lol: :lol:


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## sizar (Nov 13, 2008)

clairey.h said:


> the way I understand it is if you do LI fasted cardio in the morning your blood sugar is low and your body will turn fat into fuel by taking energy from your fat reserves......
> 
> thats in simple terms so I can understand it sure someone can answer you more techniquely :lol: :lol:


X2:thumb:


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## Tinytom (Sep 16, 2005)

Like Claire said.

First thing in the morning GH levels will be at their highest and Insulin lowest as you will have just got up.

Carbohydrate triggers insulin response and therefore stops fat burning (and cortisol release)

Therefore training on an empty stomach in the morning will mean that straight away you are into fat burning.

Of course you will have some stored glycogen but the body will prefer to tap into fat as the environment is more condusive to that.

Plus then it elevates your metabolism first thing so that you are burning more calories straight from the start of the day.

Taking a BCAA+Glutamine+Green Tea supplement with a fat burner will maximise this fat burning result.


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## clairey.h (Feb 8, 2009)

see I knew someone could answer it with techniquel words :lol: :lol:


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## Tinytom (Sep 16, 2005)

clairey.h said:


> see I knew someone could answer it with techniquel words :lol: :lol:


Do you know what - most guys who ask me in the street/gym I say what you did so they fcuk off and leave me alone.

Give someone a big answer they will always want more lol


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## MissBC (Apr 29, 2008)

chilisi said:


> Tell us more


please change your avatar...... some of us are dieting :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

:drool: :drool: :drool: :drool:


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## MissBC (Apr 29, 2008)

chilisi said:


> :lol: Just think of your cheat meal :rockon:


hahahaha well DB and i managed to polish off like a metre long pizza on sunday night as well as dessert lol!!

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm food :laugh:


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## Hera (May 6, 2011)

Tinytom said:


> Like Claire said.
> 
> First thing in the morning GH levels will be at their highest and Insulin lowest as you will have just got up.
> 
> ...





Tinytom said:


> Do you know what - most guys who ask me in the street/gym I say what you did so they fcuk off and leave me alone.
> 
> Give someone a big answer they will always want more lol


See, I do want to know more!

I understand the concept of boosting metabolism, but what confuses me is that wouldn't then eating after cardio replenish the stores you've burned off anyway, wether it be glycogen or fat? I suppose I'm confused by the whole concept of putting calories in and burining calories...don't understand how the order of it affects the overall fat loss? Or has it got something to do with different chemistry when in a state of fasting?

Sorry if I'm coming across as dense or confusing!


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## Hera (May 6, 2011)

MissBC said:


> hahahaha well DB and i managed to polish off like a metre long pizza on sunday night as well as dessert lol!!
> 
> hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm food :laugh:


Oooo...sounds good! I enjoyed a McDonalds Big Tasty with bacon meal on Sunday...still thinking about it!! (To think I used be vegetarian!)


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## Tinytom (Sep 16, 2005)

Katy said:


> See, I do want to know more!
> 
> I understand the concept of boosting metabolism, but what confuses me is that wouldn't then eating after cardio replenish the stores you've burned off anyway, wether it be glycogen or fat? I suppose I'm confused by the whole concept of putting calories in and burining calories...don't understand how the order of it affects the overall fat loss? Or has it got something to do with different chemistry when in a state of fasting?
> 
> Sorry if I'm coming across as dense or confusing!


OK here's how I understand it.

Say fro example that you get up in the morning and you have about 50% glycogen stores in your body

You then do cardio and burn off majority fat because of what I said above.

Then you take in carbs.

Logically where is the body going to put that?

The first priority would be to replenish glycogen stores not fat storage.

Only when glycogen is fully topped up would a fat storage situation happen.

So the benefit of morning cardio is to burn fat but then replenish the glycogen stores immediately after.

Plus, because you've upped your metabolism you will be burning calories at a higher rate anyway so for a short amount of time after you may burn up more glycogen anyway so happy days for dieting.


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## martin brown (Dec 31, 2008)

Tinytom said:


> Carbohydrate triggers insulin response and therefore stops fat burning (and cortisol release)
> 
> ---------------------------------
> 
> Taking a BCAA+Glutamine+Green Tea supplement with a fat burner will maximise this fat burning result.


Taking a BCAA+Glutamine suppement on an empty stomach will spike insulin to almost the same degree as eating sugars.


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## Hera (May 6, 2011)

Tinytom said:


> OK here's how I understand it.
> 
> Say fro example that you get up in the morning and you have about 50% glycogen stores in your body
> 
> ...


Thanks Tom, that makes sense now. Now I just have to figure out how not to feel sick doing cardio on an empty stomach!! :mellow:


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## Tinytom (Sep 16, 2005)

martin brown said:


> Taking a BCAA+Glutamine suppement on an empty stomach will spike insulin to almost the same degree as eating sugars.


Maybe - but the Aminos are there as a anticatabolic measure and can also be used to give extra energy during cardio and prevent catabolisation.

I've used that combo for years and never hampered my fat burning.

Insulin as a transport hormone would mean that the aminos get pulled form the blood faster to the areas that need it.


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## goonerton (Sep 7, 2009)

I don`t think its scientifically proven that morming cardio is better, its just a theory that a lot of people buy into.

But while you have low blood sugar and glycogen levels on waking which is perfect for fat burning. You also have high cortisol levels which supposedly is the perfect state for burning muscle.


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## martin brown (Dec 31, 2008)

Tinytom said:


> I've used that combo for years and never hampered my fat burning.





goonerton said:


> I don`t think its scientifically proven that morming cardio is better, its just a theory that a lot of people buy into.
> 
> But while you have low blood sugar and glycogen levels on waking which is perfect for fat burning. You also have high cortisol levels which supposedly is the perfect state for burning muscle.


I agree, there isn't a great deal that is "proven" in these fields.

Which is why what Tom said above is important - I think one of the most influential factors is having faith in what you are doing. This way you stick to it and much more likely to make progress.

It makes sense that lower blood sugar + fasted state = more likely to burn fat. Alot of people do it and it seems to work for most


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## Rambo55 (Jun 14, 2009)

Many many people will argue this....

But i really dont think doing cardio fasted for 40mins will burn any more fat than doing tha 40mins at 5pm.


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## Tinytom (Sep 16, 2005)

Rambo55 said:


> Many many people will argue this....
> 
> But i really dont think doing cardio fasted for 40mins will burn any more fat than doing tha 40mins at 5pm.


With a days worth of food in you and full glycogen stores?

Maybe, Maybe not.

I do both to be sure


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## Rambo55 (Jun 14, 2009)

Fasted cardio is very much a traditional BB thing.. That's done at pro level right down to the grass routes.

But studys have shown time and time again it's calories in and calories out....

In the past i've used it and it does work but when i did it later in the day burning the same amount of calories as i did before i got just as lean just as quick.....


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## Hera (May 6, 2011)

chilisi said:


> Bet you cant go without meat now?? burgers are lovely :thumb:


Damn right...eat tonnes of it! Went for 9 years without it, some of that time I was vegan...although I've gained weight since eating meat...I'm so much healthier!!! Convinced I'll live longer now


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## Hera (May 6, 2011)

chilisi said:


> You will if you eat a big mac a day :laugh:


You mean gain weight? Not get healthier! I was having a cheat day thank you very much! Good as gold the rest of the time :innocent:


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## Guest (Feb 16, 2010)

mcdonald is ath the top of the road so ill eat breakfasts and lunch there!!


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## rodrigo (Jun 29, 2009)

for me i could never cardio before brekkie, i am starvin in the mornin to the point sometimes i feel sick until i get food so i will stick with high intensity interval for fat burnin quick and nasty


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## Hera (May 6, 2011)

chilisi said:


> A burger a day keeps the doctor away
> 
> Are you going to try the fasted cardio after your thread. I've been thinking of doing this myself, as my new puppy can be taken out now, so he can get me back into shape.
> 
> It has worked for me in the past.. but it's nice to see the science behind it to justify waking up so early


Mmm, I'm still not sure. Similarly to what rodrigo said, in the mornings I'm so hungry that my stomach hurts to the point of feeling sick!! I recently did cardio before breakfast and felt faint...when I feel like that I don't do as good a work out had I eaten...so I think the negatives of cardio in the morning for me outweighs the positives.

But of course other people are fine doing it in the morning.

It's nice you have a puppy to take out...makes cardio all the more enjoyable


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## Guest (Feb 16, 2010)

Katy said:


> Mmm, I'm still not sure. Similarly to what rodrigo said, in the mornings I'm so hungry that my stomach hurts to the point of feeling sick!! *I recently did cardio before breakfast and felt faint...when I feel like that I don't do as good a work out had I eaten*...so I think the negatives of cardio in the morning for me outweighs the positives.
> 
> But of course other people are fine doing it in the morning.
> 
> It's nice you have a puppy to take out...makes cardio all the more enjoyable


just have something tiny before you go then ?


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## Hera (May 6, 2011)

1russ100 said:


> just have something tiny before you go then ?


That's kinda what I've been doing. I've been having a coffee for caffeine and a piece of toast. Due to the emphasis people place on fasting before hand though, I've often sort of felt guilty for that one piece of toast. But actually, after this thread I don't think I'll feel so guilty as it at least means I get decent workout rather than feeling faint. I've also stopped taking fat burners simply cos they make me feel totally weird...unpleasantly so, which also affects the enjoyment I get out of a workout and makes work afterwards a little difficult...maybe I'm just a little fragile.


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## Hera (May 6, 2011)

chilisi said:


> I've had a protein shake in the past to settle my stomach before cardio.
> 
> But i'm sure if your good with your diet, any time of the day will suffice?


I prefer my toast, but have a shake afterwards to replenish nutirents for my muscles.

Totally agree with your last statment...I think I'm doing good enough to see results, which is all that counts for me.


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## Guest (Feb 16, 2010)

if that one piece of toast gives you a better workout then keep doing it, i wouldnt worry about it at all.

i used to swim at 5am everyday and if i didnt have something(even just the toast) it was a complete waste of time as i felt to crappy to train properly.


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## Big Dawg (Feb 24, 2008)

In reality there is probably little tangible difference between doing it fasted and doing it later in the day, but I think that getting it done in the morning also focuses you on your goals straight away and keeps you in the dieting frame of mind. It's just a part of my routine and I believe in it's benefits regardless of lack of evidence either way. The way I see it it's at least a good as doing it after a huge carb meal, and for the reasons tom mentioned I feel it's probably significantly better.


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## Tinytom (Sep 16, 2005)

I think some post deleting is going to happen here

Come back to check and all this talk of burgers and Im dieting for a show.

DAMN YOU PEOPLE :cursing: :cursing: :cursing:


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## Big Dawg (Feb 24, 2008)

Just to add, I'm a big believer in science and calories in = calories out has credibility, but there's defo more to it than that. If there wasn't then surely I wouldn't be able to eat 2500g+carbs and 10,000+ cals in a 24hr period at the weekend and still drop fat every week. Logic would dictate that because that's probs at least 7k cals over my maintenance that I would put on 2lbs of fat; however eating 2500cals the rest of the week and thoroughly depleting glycogen stores means that the body actually refills it's glycogen stores and has it's metabolism stimulated to burn MORE fat! Therefore it's not always as simple as cals in = cals out. IMO AM cardio is a winner.


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## Tinytom (Sep 16, 2005)

Rambo55 said:


> Fasted cardio is very much a traditional BB thing.. That's done at pro level right down to the grass routes.
> 
> *But studys have shown time and time again it's calories in and calories out....*
> 
> In the past i've used it and it does work but when i did it later in the day burning the same amount of calories as i did before i got just as lean just as quick.....


Which Studies?

PLus also if its that straight forward then 2500 cals a day of carbs would give the same physique as 2500 cals a day of Protein?

Sorry its not as simple as that.


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## Rambo55 (Jun 14, 2009)

How is the protein vs carbs idea you've said above anything like what i said???

Of course you need protein and one other protein sparing macro ( carbs or fat)

But you could get lean eating carbs as your sparing macro or fats ( calories being equal)

I have tons of solid studys on an ebook but i cant copy and paste from it...


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## Tinytom (Sep 16, 2005)

Rambo55 said:


> How is the protein vs carbs idea you've said above anything like what i said???
> 
> Of course you need protein and one other protein sparing macro ( carbs or fat)
> 
> ...


You said Calories in - Calories out

Therefore no matter what the calories you take in as long as you burn them off you will lose fat and get lean.

Thats the implication from your post.

Whereas many of the seasoned guys here will tell you its not that simple.

Ask your diet coach as well he'll tell you.

Nothing is ever as simple as that.


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## Rambo55 (Jun 14, 2009)

Tom,

Yes cals in and out.... But of course protein being 1g per pound of BW ( of whatever)

Im not here to say whats right and wrong as both ways are tools . And both have there place. Im not making absolute statements here im saying fasted LISS works -period ... Is the most effective way to get and stay lean no IMO it aint

But my diet coach has not one person doing fasted cardio and most competitors even the pros do more than one session of LISS per week and thats for 45mins.

Desiree walker who is now pro did zero cardio when she won her pro card. Startchy carbs all the way through


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## Rambo55 (Jun 14, 2009)

Desi  did no cardio and turned pro

Crystol did one session a week and won her show

Allen Cress is in prep now and is doing one a week

non fasted..


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## Jacko89 (Mar 4, 2009)

Katy, i wake up before AM cardio starving to the point i feel sick but as soon as i start cardio the hunger goes away until around 10minutes after.

I'm still playing around with wether i feel there is much difference in AM fasted cardio or PM cardio but what TT says makes 100% sense.

Some morning i feel awake enough to actually train instead of do my cardio and that makes me hungry ALL day long.


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## BoomTime (Feb 19, 2009)

when i was cutting i did 30 mins am cardio fasted 4 -5 times a week and dropped from 12.2 % bf to 7% bf in 8 weeks

not saying its the best for everyone but imho it works


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## Tinytom (Sep 16, 2005)

dont know what LISS is sorry not up on PT buzzwords. 

Thats fine I do know people who dont do cardio either. Everyone has their own methods and this thread was about Cardio before breakfast but seems to have been taken off topic by a debate on calories which isnt the topic being discussed.

Theres no one method thats the best and unlike you I dont have unfettered access to the pros so couldnt comment on their methods either.

On that site which one of the clients is you? Just interested as seen you are a pro model. One of my friends is closely linked with the modelling world and might know you.


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## Hera (May 6, 2011)

Jacko89 said:


> Katy, i wake up before AM cardio starving to the point i feel sick but as soon as i start cardio the hunger goes away until around 10minutes after.
> 
> I'm still playing around with wether i feel there is much difference in AM fasted cardio or PM cardio but what TT says makes 100% sense.
> 
> Some morning i feel awake enough to actually train instead of do my cardio and that makes me hungry ALL day long.


That's good that you lose your hunger once you work out. Personally, although I lose my hunger when exercising (because my body is focssuing on exercise and not on digestion) I do feel faint and unwell. So, I think I'll have my little piece of toast first. And I agree, what Tom says makes sense.


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## Rambo55 (Jun 14, 2009)

I've not been with Scott Abel long and not yet on the clients list..

I have a shoot coming up with Reflex nutrition and hopefully those pics will be up the site.

thanks


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## Tinytom (Sep 16, 2005)

Katy said:


> That's good that you lose your hunger once you work out. Personally, although I lose my hunger when exercising (because my body is focssuing on exercise and not on digestion) I do feel faint and unwell. So, I think I'll have my little piece of toast first. And I agree, what Tom says makes sense.


Id have that toast as well Katy.

A slice of toast is about 17g of carbs or 68 calories. You will burn way more than that.


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## Jacko89 (Mar 4, 2009)

Your cardio would be fueled by the food you ate the day before though, so do you think having that bit of toast is more for your head to make you feel better TT?


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## Magic Torch (May 30, 2005)

Ramboo make a thread for your modelling pics and post a few up. Have seen a few of your threads and I'm interested now.

Cheers


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## Tinytom (Sep 16, 2005)

Rambo55 said:


> I've not been with Scott Abel long and not yet on the clients list..
> 
> I have a shoot coming up with Reflex nutrition and hopefully those pics will be up the site.
> 
> thanks


Ah OK which modelling agency are you with cos my mate works in London a lot.

Also just briefly have you considered the thermogenic effect of certain foods. Also would you say that 100g of Protein and 100g of carbs yield the same calories to the body in terms of use? Theres an interesting argument on that related to what you said about calories.


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## Tinytom (Sep 16, 2005)

Jacko89 said:


> Your cardio would be fueled by the food you ate the day before though, so do you think having that bit of toast is more for your head to make you feel better TT?


Yes.

And to stop the initial hunger upon waking.


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## Tinytom (Sep 16, 2005)

Tinytom said:


> Ah OK which modelling agency are you with cos my mate works in London a lot.
> 
> Also just briefly have you considered the thermogenic effect of certain foods. Also would you say that 100g of Protein and 100g of carbs yield the same calories to the body in terms of use? Theres an interesting argument on that related to what you said about calories.


Bump for Rambo


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## martin brown (Dec 31, 2008)

Have a look at this - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2221871/

No difference between TEF of PRO and CHO when taken as liquids.


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## martin brown (Dec 31, 2008)

And this: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2387273?ordinalpos=1&itool=PPMCLayout.PPMCAppController.PPMCArticlePage.PPMCPubmedRA&linkpos=2

suggests it makes no difference how often you eat or what it contains as to the thermal effect of food.


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## Rambo55 (Jun 14, 2009)

I'm with Nevs / W athletic and Flair talent..

second question i can't anwser....sorry

thanks


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## Tinytom (Sep 16, 2005)

martin brown said:


> Have a look at this - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2221871/
> 
> No difference between TEF of PRO and CHO when taken as liquids.


ah liquids are different as they are already broken down so not really what I was getting at.


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## Tinytom (Sep 16, 2005)

martin brown said:


> And this: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2387273?ordinalpos=1&itool=PPMCLayout.PPMCAppController.PPMCArticlePage.PPMCPubmedRA&linkpos=2
> 
> suggests it makes no difference how often you eat or what it contains as to the thermal effect of food.


you should have posted that on the 'sipping your protein' thread would have really stirred up the sh*t lol.

Im not talking about the thermal effect really just the energy used by the body to digest the food, its slightly different as the thermal effect would take into account the energy released as well as the energy used.

Rambo - when you are talking about calories in and out you also have to take into account the energy used by the body to digest the food. For example protein typically only releases around 80% of the total calories as the body may use 20 cals to digest 100 cals which is a net yield of 80.

in comparison fat 99 and carbs 90 I think. so when you are talking about the simple equation of cals in and cals out neglecting this will mean that you may not get your sums right.

Which is why I originally said that its not as simple as you suggested.


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## Hera (May 6, 2011)

Tinytom said:


> Im not talking about the thermal effect really just the energy used by the body to digest the food, its slightly different as the thermal effect would take into account the energy released as well as the energy used.
> 
> Rambo - when you are talking about calories in and out you also have to take into account the energy used by the body to digest the food. For example protein typically only releases around 80% of the total calories as the body may use 20 cals to digest 100 cals which is a net yield of 80.
> 
> ...


I was thinking that earlier, diferent types of food require different amounts of energy for them to be digested and converted...protein requiring the most energy compared to carbs and fat. When taking time out from exercise I always substituted snacks for protein simply for that reason.


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## Rambo55 (Jun 14, 2009)

Tom.

Thanks for clearing that up mate.... good to know.

My Coach does say calories don't measure metabolisims? Is that sort of on the same lines as your saying?


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## Hera (May 6, 2011)

Rambo55 said:


> Tom.
> 
> Thanks for clearing that up mate.... good to know.
> 
> My Coach does say calories don't measure metabolisims? Is that sort of on the same lines as your saying?


I'm trying to remember my A-level biology here...as far as I remember, metablosim is the process through which the body breaks down chemicals and converts them into other chemicals, which takes energy e.g. converting essential amino acids into the other amino acids. Given that protein consists of amino acids, more work is needed by the body to break them down. convert them and use them.

Have I remembered this right?

And sugars in carbs are more easily made use of by the body...therefore requiring less energy etc


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## martin brown (Dec 31, 2008)

Katy said:


> I was thinking that earlier, diferent types of food require different amounts of energy for them to be digested and converted...protein requiring the most energy compared to carbs and fat. When taking time out from exercise I always substituted snacks for protein simply for that reason.


I agree with everything in priciple - the science is there and has been proven.

Hoever, changing the way you eat (the foods you eat) as Katy metioned here - all for what? To save 50-100 cals a day?

This is where it gets a little crazy - and this is no dig at you Katy  - but you could just eat carbs and fat and have ONE less mouthful a day and be better off in most cases.

The science behind it can also get very complicated, so much so you can start chasing your tail as to what is most important.

M


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## Hera (May 6, 2011)

martin brown said:


> I agree with everything in priciple - the science is there and has been proven.
> 
> Hoever, changing the way you eat (the foods you eat) as Katy metioned here - all for what? To save 50-100 cals a day?
> 
> ...


No worries, I don't take it as a dig...I agree with you too. I'm interested in the science and when I stopped working out, my eating more protien was more psychological...convinced myself it wasn't as bad!!

Given that I have no desire to compete or anything like that I don't obsess over my diet...just keep it balanced to make sure I get all the necessary nutrients. (In fact, from personal experience, obsessing too much can become unhealthy). However, I totally understand why people who are training for comps etc would do all they can to help things along.


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## Tinytom (Sep 16, 2005)

Rambo55 said:


> Tom.
> 
> Thanks for clearing that up mate.... good to know.
> 
> My Coach does say calories don't measure metabolisims? Is that sort of on the same lines as your saying?


not sure what that means TBH mate

lots of different views on diets.


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## Hera (May 6, 2011)

Was going to try fasted cardio this morning...but man was I grumpy! Had to have my toast in the end. I think for the safety of all at the gym, I shouldn't do fasted cardio! But respect to those who can.


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

the simple thing to remember is that what works for one does not mean it will work for others......i know guys who have done 2hrs of cardio a day and turned Pro and know guys and girls who have done much less......

Ronnie Coleman did cardio both fasted and before bed so does Jay and they are at the top of their game so i don't think anyone can argue.....in his first few years as a pro Dexter did not do any cardio and was probably the most shredded guys on stage.....

no one and i mean no one can say this way or that way is best as their are to many variables....

Muscle mass

Metabolism

BF%

Diet

etc

etc....

i think anyone who knows anything will agree that each person is individual and therefore must be treated as such......i have found that doing cardio before meal 1 for me and my clients to be the better way to perform cardio opposed to in the evening or PWO........


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## GHS (Oct 6, 2008)

Just do an AM fasted session and a PM session to cover both bases


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Bump for later


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## NakedGuy (Sep 1, 2009)

all these pictures and discussion of mcdonalds and pizza are making my belly rumble.

sorry to jump in but if the idea of cardio before breaky because of your insulin levels and having no carbs in your belly, would this mean it doesnt matter what time you do it if on keto


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Getting back off topic. 

I understand the calorie in vs calorie out, but I dont agree with its use in principal.

Many things factor in here when dieting.

Yah you have to have a deficit but keeping blood sugars stable for some is half the game.

Some foods offer better satiety than others.

Carbs for instance tend to make me crave more carbs.

I find a keto diet works best and fastest at first, regardless if I am counting calories.

35 grams of fiber burns about 250 caloires.

Surely if a calorie was a calorie then this would mean something?

Protein for instance has something like a 20 to 25% loss in energy calories for digestion.

How can one suggest calorie in vs calorie out?

All things the same, one needs protein to spare muscle loss when dieting, other wise some more muscle would be lost instead of the targeted fat?

The proof is in the success of a diet, or eating lifestyle.


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## martin brown (Dec 31, 2008)

hackskii said:


> Getting back off topic.
> 
> I understand the calorie in vs calorie out, but I dont agree with its use in principal.
> 
> ...


The basic principles of thermodynamics will apply - often it's not quite so straight forward, BUT calories in go somewhere - they are either used or stored. Nothing more than that.

So if net cals in is greater than cals out you'll get fatter (or bigger).


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

I understand the concept, but what may be right and proper on paper wont be right and proper in application.

(1) cup diced celery is 19 calories.

But out of that it has 1.9 grams in fiber, which is about 8% of its total volume.

My question to you then would be simple.

If I ate 18 cups of cellery that would be 342 calories (34.2 grams fiber),

or I drank 28.5 oz of coca cola 342 calories, which one would over time equate to more weight gain?

Remember, a calorie is a calorie.......


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## b4kun09 (May 20, 2009)

i wake up at 6am and take 3 bcaa caps 1 multi vitamin and a t5. i then do 1 hour moderate pace cardio heart rate is up to about 115 then i finish and have 120grms of egg white and 104 grms off yolk blened with water. that 1 wakes u up i tell you lol


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## B-GJOE (May 7, 2009)

I know what you are driving at Hacks but can't rep you because I'm not spreading enough love.....

Another thing that people miss with the calorie in calorie out argument is that carbohydrates in long chain polymers actually require 1 molecule of water to create the full glucose melecule C6H12O6, this bond actually creates more glucose than went in. I can't remember where I read this, or the complete chemistry and maths. But the figure 4.25 comes to mind. So you think you are eating 4kcals per gram of complex carbs, but actually when the water is added to the incomplete molecules it becomes 4.25kcals.


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## B-GJOE (May 7, 2009)

Just noticed that the thread title is about cardio before breakfast, so I had better redeem myself for that completely off topic post above.

I think fasted cardio in the morning is rocking, and sets you up for the day. I feel more energetic during the day after fasted cardio.


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## martin brown (Dec 31, 2008)

hackskii said:


> I understand the concept, but what may be right and proper on paper wont be right and proper in application.
> 
> (1) cup diced celery is 19 calories.
> 
> ...


Yes a calorie is a calorie. I agree with your point - and your trying to find the most extreme cases and even so it make little difference in the real world.

Who eat all of their calorie requirements from celery? Or coke?

The celery will have a slightly lower NET calorie intake. Although the caffiene in the coke will raise metabolism to some degree, just not quite as much as digesting fibre.

Net calroies count. If you eat 100 cals too many from celery you put weight on. You simply cannot argue against that. Calories are a measurement of energy and they cannot just disappear!

Eating a diet soley of fat would have the least TEF and produce the highest amount of available calories from food. Does this mean it's all stored as fat and we would be better on 100% protein diets? No.

What you also have to factor into the equation is that fats and proteins have structural properties. They are not simply used as energy but for building cells, hormones etc.

But it's all pretty irrelevant because these slight differences are balanced out over the course of meals, days and weeks - and this is what matters, the big picture. and the easiest way to work out the big picture is: calories in vs calories out!

Arguing the small stuff is like trying to track metabolic rate every hour and adjusting intake accordingly! It's just OTT for real life application.



B|GJOE said:


> I know what you are driving at Hacks but can't rep you because I'm not spreading enough love.....
> 
> Another thing that people miss with the calorie in calorie out argument is that carbohydrates in long chain polymers actually require 1 molecule of water to create the full glucose melecule C6H12O6, this bond actually creates more glucose than went in. I can't remember where I read this, or the complete chemistry and maths. But the figure 4.25 comes to mind. So you think you are eating 4kcals per gram of complex carbs, but actually when the water is added to the incomplete molecules it becomes 4.25kcals.


There are 4.25 cals in a gram of CHO - it cannot start at 4 and create an extra quarter! Energy cannot be made or lost - only changed.


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## B-GJOE (May 7, 2009)

martin brown said:


> Yes a calorie is a calorie. I agree with your point - and your trying to find the most extreme cases and even so it make little difference in the real world.
> 
> Who eat all of their calorie requirements from celery? Or coke?
> 
> ...


Here is a bit of chemistry for you



> The chemical name for sugar - the white granulated stuff you put in your tea - is sucrose. Sucrose is a disaccharide , which means two sugars. Its chemical formula, C 12 H 22 O 11 , means that it is made up of twelve atoms of carbon, twenty-two atoms of hydrogen and eleven atoms of oxygen. When it is digested, it enters the bloodstream as the blood sugar, glucose, whose formula is C 6 H 12 O 6 . In this process one molecule of C 12 H 22 O 11 ends up as two molecules of C 6 H 12 O 6 . But you will notice that sucrose has only twenty-two hydrogen and eleven oxygen atoms, before it can become glucose, it must gain two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom somehow. It does this very simply by combining with water whose chemical formula is H 2 O (which means it has two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom - exactly what we need). The process is illustrated thus:
> 
> C 12 H 22 O 11 + H 2 O == 2 C 6 H 12 O 6
> 
> ...


Source=http://www.second-opinions.co.uk/diabetes-4.html


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## nearlynatural (Aug 24, 2009)

hi katy

ive lost 6 inches off my waist so fat, currently now 32 inches, whilst my muscle is on the whole intact, ive lost 3/4 off an inch off my arms, i can live with that as there lean 16.5 now,

the way i did it was walking, i started about 5 weeks ago and i am shocked at how well it has worked, i power walk 40-50 mins to the train station 4 times a week , its actually become quite enjoyable and time passes much quicker compared to a treadmill.

i take BCAA and glutamine with multi vitamin before hand and my heart i try to keep my heart rate between 100-130.

Good luck


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## nearlynatural (Aug 24, 2009)

Sorry forgot to add, i occasionally also walk but on a treadmill after training,

training is intence and heavy but with proper form.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

B|GJOE said:


> I know what you are driving at Hacks but can't rep you because I'm not spreading enough love.....


Its ok boss, I suck at chemistry anyway. 



martin brown said:


> Yes a calorie is a calorie. I agree with your point - and your trying to find the most extreme cases and *even so it make little difference in the real world. *
> 
> Who eat all of their calorie requirements from celery? Or coke?
> 
> ...


I know what you are saying but in bold I dispute that.

It is like someone saying they are a little pregnant.

It either is or is not, regardless of the little variations in between.

dieting is never cut and dry, there many ways to skin a cat.

Keto diets work better on some than others, and not because it is a calorie, it is because one may adhere to it better.

Now my question was pretty much skipped and the answer is huge.

The celery would be about 250 calories less due to the fiber.

Or about a total of only 90 calories, and that does not take into consideration the calories it would take for you to chew that much celery (20 minutes).

And not to mention the duration it would take to eat that much cellery, and the amount of stable blood sugar levels that would have and the satiety of that snack...lol

The coke would go in, spike blood sugars, spike insulin, store as fat and glucose, then in a short period of time the brain would make a call for more fuel as the last one just got stored.

So, although I do agree with you on paper, not in practice.

When I diet and eat carbs I overfeed.

It isnt just the calories that make me not be able to lose weight, it is the selection of foods.

And, buy the way, sugar is a worthless calorie, and celery happens to lower blood pressure better than any other natural food you can eat.

Try drinking a glass of celery juice and in just half an hour let me know what your BP is.

Sugar would cause you to be insulin resistant anyway and I know guys that drink alot more soda than the amount I used as an example.

So, in the real world, people sure do over indulge on soda's.

Celery has enzymes and vitamins and minerals too. :innocent:


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## martin brown (Dec 31, 2008)

Now I do agree as I said above - but it's not worth worrying about in real life when eating a balanced diet will be most important - and when balanced cals in vs. cals out will have a greater overall effect on weight itself.

Just incase anyone read the above and thought "great I'll go eat loads of celery everyday to burn loads of cals" just consider this:-

The results of the largest, long-term trial to date, published in 1999, also suggest that, contrary to popular belief, high dietary fibre intake does not protect against colorectal cancer. Researchers at Harvard Medical School and the Dana-Farber Cancer Institute, both in Boston, Massachusetts, studied 88,757 women over sixteen years. They say:

"there was what they call an 'unexpected' finding, in that, according to their data, a high consumption of vegetable-derived fiber was actually 'associated with a significant increase (35%) in the risk of colorectal cancer' "

Taken from - http://www.second-opinions.co.uk/bran_and_cancer2.html

Or read this book - Fiber Menace by Konstantin Monastyrsky for more reasons why dietry fibre should not be consumed in high doeses.

M


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## B-GJOE (May 7, 2009)

martin brown said:


> Now I do agree as I said above - but it's not worth worrying about in real life when eating a balanced diet will be most important - and when balanced cals in vs. cals out will have a greater overall effect on weight itself.
> 
> Just incase anyone read the above and thought "great I'll go eat loads of celery everyday to burn loads of cals" just consider this:-
> 
> ...


Apparently the guy that did the research into the benefits of bran fibre was funded by Dr Kellog who had mountains of the stuff. Mmmmmm no vested interest the research discovering the benefits of fibre then...............

Anyway, the guy that did the research actually died from colon cancer.

The bran fibre works is that it actually injures the intestinal tract which then secretes a mucous from the wounds. This mucous is supposed to have the benefit of aiding the passage of food through the intestinal tract.

IMO, it is a crazy logic that continuing to injure ones insides is good for you.

Utter nonsense!!!

Therefore, I am with Martin on this one, more main stream rubbish to keep the food manufacturers in the dosh.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Bumping this for tomorrow.

I want to respond with perspective tomorrow when not at the pub slambing beer and shots.

lol

bran?

lol

Vegetables offer much protection.

Till tomorrow.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

B|GJOE said:


> Apparently the guy that did the research into the benefits of bran fibre was funded by Dr Kellog who had mountains of the stuff. Mmmmmm no vested interest the research discovering the benefits of fibre then...............
> 
> Anyway, the guy that did the research actually died from colon cancer.
> 
> ...


Actually its worse than that:

Oat bran, which is high in phytic acid, as well as related bran products can cause numerous problems with digestion and assimilation, leading to mineral deficiencies, irritable bowel syndrome and autoimmune difficulties such as Crohn's disease. Case control studies indicate that consumption of cereal fiber can be linked with detrimental effects on colon cancer formation.10


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## B-GJOE (May 7, 2009)

hackskii said:


> Actually its worse than that:
> 
> Oat bran, which is high in phytic acid, as well as related bran products can cause numerous problems with digestion and assimilation, leading to mineral deficiencies, irritable bowel syndrome and autoimmune difficulties such as Crohn's disease. Case control studies indicate that consumption of cereal fiber can be linked with detrimental effects on colon cancer formation.10


You're a man after my own heart hacks. Enjoying your posts here, and in the cholesterol thread. Awesome stuff. Reps.....


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Thanks Joe, I remember reading years ago about Bran.

I like your posts too.

Weston Price has great stuff on fats among other interesting things.


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## deeconfrost (Dec 15, 2010)

eat clean and do cardio,all the way


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