# Post workout drink, does it work?



## winger

Snipped from T-nation. Click here for the original article.



The Top 10 Post Workout Nutrition Myths

by Dave Barr
​
The Revolution has come, are you ready?

The world of strength training is obviously full of contradiction and confusion. Just pick up any standard bodybuilding magazine and you'll see different people with drastically diverse views, all telling you that they have the one method to help you achieve your goals. But through all of this crap, every now and then we find certain principles that we can take to the grave and apply universally.

Examples include: "lift heavy weights and you'll get big," "cardio helps with weight loss," and "Canadian men are hung like moose."

Another such principle is the post workout nutrient window, which states that during the time immediately post workout, our bodies are in a state of shock and physical disarray, resulting in an opportunity for enhanced nutrient absorption and accelerated recovery. In fact, it's pretty safe to say that since its inception a decade ago, this scientifically "proven" idea has revolutionized the way we look at nutrition.

Unfortunately, this principle has become so engrained in our subculture that much of it has mutated and become dogmatic in scope. While the general principles remain, many of the studies on which they are based were done on populations that aren't completely applicable to us, such as animals or endurance athletes.

Despite the emergence of new, more applicable science, we've had a very difficult time in adapting our thinking to these current and better-suited ideas.

Making the situation worse is the fact that everyone seems to have their own input about what post workout nutrition should be! This stems from what I like to call the "telephone-chain effect" (derived from the lesson-yielding children's game), which illustrates how easily messages can change when passed through a chain of people.

How it works is that one person will dictate something to another, who in turn tells this same information to someone else, who then repeats it to another, and so on. By human nature, each person will subtly alter the message, by leaving out some parts, embellishing others, etc. to the extent that by the time you get to the tenth person, the original statement of "Hey sugar, could you mop up the mess in the pantry with the Swiffer?" becomes warped to something like "Shugart is a messed up panty sniffer."

True as it may be, obviously the point of the latter statement does not even remotely resemble the original.

But since this article is not entitled "The Top Ten Things Wrong With Our Post Workout Information," let's get to the myths that have developed, and the current reality.

1. Replenishing Glycogen Needs to be a Focus of PWO.

I'm not just suggesting that glycogen resynthesis is not important following exercise, I'm flat out saying that for strength training it's not even a concern! This is because it's just really easy to get our glycogen levels back up, and timing is generally not an issue.

Although one study showed that following endurance exercise, glycogen levels were replenished more rapidly when carbohydrates were consumed shortly after the exercise (Ivy, 1988), this is really of little concern to most of us. Unless we're subscribers to Runners World, athletes in competition, or doing 2 a day workouts, why do we care so much about rapid glycogen restoration? After all, we're mostly concerned with muscle growth, fat loss, and getting stronger.

The most common argument is that the subsequent cellular hydration and swelling will have an anticatabolic effect on muscle. I don't believe that this is possible because cellular hydration to the extent that we get with creatine supplementation has little effect on muscle protein synthesis or breakdown in healthy men or women (Louis et al., 2003).

Then there's the suggestion that if we don't replenish post exercise glycogen right away, we'll miss a window of opportunity to do so. This is largely hyperbole, exploded from bits and pieces of endurance training studies, and a perfect example of the telephone game effect.

Surprisingly, one study showed that consuming carbohydrates after strength training only increased muscle glycogen by 16% more than when water was consumed (Pascoe et al., 1993)! With this information and the huge amount of carbs that we consume on a daily basis, we should have little doubt that glycogen levels will be maximized within 24 hours of the workout.

Now these may be irrelevant points, because in the effort of keeping our focus where it ought to lie-on maximizing protein synthesis- we're going to quickly stimulate our glycogen restoration anyway. This is because we consume rapidly absorbed carbohydrates along with our protein and amino acids, which has been shown to enhance muscle protein anabolism (Rasmussen et al., 2000).

In other words, muscle glycogen will be restored whether we make it a priority or not. This way, even those who can't escape the dogma of having to rapidly restore glycogen get their fix, while at the same time, unknowingly assisting with muscle protein recovery.






2. Pre workout Nutrition will divert blood flow away from muscles during the workout.

One of a plethora of excuses made in an attempt to resist preworkout nutrition; this myth actually makes a lot of sense&#8230;until you become familiar with the physiology of hormones. Looking deeper, we can find that the insulin stimulated by food intake, actually enhances blood flow and subsequent nutrient delivery to muscles (Coggins et al., 2001).

Applying this principle, liquid pre workout meal consumption dramatically increases muscle blood flow and protein synthesis (Tipton et al., 2001). This elevation in muscle growth is at least twice that observed with the same drink taken post workout (Tipton et al., 2001)! In fact, this effect even lasts for an hour after the workout, so it's like having 2 drinks for the price of 1! If you want more detail on this topic check out the article on Arginine blood flow stimulators.

Fortunately, early resistance to this research is falling by the wayside, and people are finally starting to reap the benefits that this practice has to offer. While "pre workout nutrition" just doesn't sound as sexy as "post workout nutrition," actually doubling our muscle growth should seem pretty damn sexy to everyone!

3. The post workout meal is the most important meal of the day.

I have to admit that with all the hype on post-workout meals over the past few years, I got tangled up in this myth, too. Realistically though, as great as they are, a single post-workout meal will have minimal impact compared to what can happen if your nutrition is completely optimized. Of course it's heresy to say that these days, but that's a result of the myth building on itself more than any factual data. For example, as discussed in the myth #2, pre-workout meals can be 200% more effective for stimulating muscle growth compared to post-workout (Tipton et al., 2001).

Perhaps even more important than the pre-workout meal is the old standard: breakfast. No this article isn't part of a conspiracy by MABB (Mom's Against Bad Breakfasts) to promote the importance of this meal. Just think about it: being essentially fasted for 8-10 hours is incredibly destructive for muscle -yes even if you eat cottage cheese before bed.

This is especially true in trained individuals like us, because we have higher rates of muscle breakdown (Phillips et al. 2002) The faster we can stop this catabolism once we wake up, the better. In fact, one could even argue that the amount of muscle protein spared from this first meal would be equal to, or even greater, than that gained by a post workout meal.

Also, consuming a high quality slow protein before bed, like Low-Carb Grow! with micellar casein, will largely mitigate the catabolic effect induced by nocturnal fasting. Taking this one step further, nighttime eating will actually put your muscle into anabolic overdrive, by supplying even more amino acids to stimulate this metabolic process.

Finally, a second post workout meal can be even better for protein synthesis than the first, but I'll get to that one in a bit.

Mini-Summary: Nocturnal feedings, breakfast, preworkout meals, and multiple post workout meals can be more beneficial for muscle growth than a single post workout meal.






4. There's a one-hour window of opportunity for protein synthesis following a workout.

You may be wondering: is this a myth because the real window is half an hour? Two or 3 hours? Maybe 6 hours? Sadly, in the past 2 weeks I've read different articles, all suggesting that the "window" is one of the above lengths of time.

It's not surprising that with this type of inconsistency that this is probably the most pervasive myth in bodybuilding today! Worse yet, it stems directly from the scientific research itself. The most often cited research on the protein synthetic post workout window, used elderly subjects (Esmark et al., 2001) and cardio exercise findings (Levenhagen et al., 2001) to make their predictions. While this is a completely acceptable practice when these are the only data we have to go on, there are a couple noteworthy problems.

Elderly individuals digest and absorb protein differently than healthy adults. In fact, they digest and absorb whey protein in a similar manner as they do casein (Dangin et al., 2003); in other words they have slow digestion and absorption for whey. Elderly also benefit from having 80% of their daily protein consumed at a single sitting (Arnal et al., 1999), in contrast to the benefits of our multiple feedings.

Additionally, the traditionally referenced Esmark et al. (2001), study showed that consuming the post workout meal just 2 hours after working out actually prevented any improvements induced by the training! Figure that one out and you get a prize.

Secondly, with regards to cardio&#8230;well, let's just say that there's an obvious difference between how our muscles respond to the two forms of exercise. Bear in mind that with regard to carbohydrate metabolism following a workout, there might not be much of a difference-we just don't know, but certainly the long-term protein metabolism differences can be seen.

So now what are we supposed to base our nutrition on? Enter the most underrated scientific paper in the last 5 years. Tipton and colleagues (2003) examined responsiveness of protein synthesis for a day after a workout, and found it to reflect a 24 hour enhanced level. That's right folks, a FULL DAY! This means that having a morning shake will have the same impact on muscle protein synthesis as one consumed following the workout!

These results shouldn't be too surprising because we've known for over a decade that postworkout protein synthesis is jacked up for this long (MacDougall et al., 1995), but if you're discovering this for the first time, then it's pretty exciting!

Some research suggests that even 48 hours after the workout our protein synthesis levels can be elevated by ~33% (Phillips et al., 1997), giving us an even longer period during which we can maximize our muscle growth with protein drinks.

Strike one for the one hour post workout window.






5. Consuming the drink immediately following the workout will elicit the greatest protein synthesis.

It's amazing to see how more advanced, and often experienced, people behave in the gym when it comes to getting their post workout meal. Some guys even sit there, right after their last set, and slug back a drink! In fact I've even heard "as soon as the weight hits the floor" touted as the war cry for the hardcore. While this is actually a sub-optimal practice for muscle growth and recovery, not to mention borderline obsessive compulsive, it's good to see their heart is the right place.

Comparing research that used drinks consumed immediately after a workout (Tipton et al., 2001) versus those ingested an hour after training (Rasmussen et al., 2000), the results are surprising: it seems that post workout meal ingestion actually results in 30% lower protein synthesis rates than when we wait! So every time we thought that we were badass for drinking "as soon as the weight hit the floor, we were actually short changing ourselves. Not a big deal, that's why we read T-Nation. Let's just learn, adapt, and move on.

Strike two for the one hour post workout window.

6. The best meal to consume following a post workout meal is a good SOLID meal.

This is where we can start to apply some of the novel information presented above. While we know that our post workout window (is it really even a window any more? 24 hours is more like a giant garage door) lasts for at least 24 hours, we can't assume that the responses to repeated meals will all be the same.

This is where research by Borsheim and pals (2002) comes in. This landmark research shows that the best thing to consume after our post workout meal is&#8230; another protein shake! In fact, if we time it right, we'll get the same huge increase in protein synthesis. Talk about a double whammy for our muscle growth! Now considering how crazy people get when it comes to a single post workout meal, imagine how they'll react when you tell them that they can double that effect!

Also, for those who have a hard time accepting the reality explained in myth #5, you'll get an even bigger response from the second drink, compared to what you get from the first.

7. Insulin sensitivity is enhanced for an hour following a resistance training bout.

The term insulin sensitivity gets thrown around in the strength-training world, as only the most vague of concepts. From here on, lets universally define it as: the inverse of the quantity of insulin required for an effect of a given magnitude. In other words, high insulin sensitivity requires low levels of insulin to do the job. Make sense? Now that we have a working definition, we need to destroy the myth of the one-hour post workout window once and for all!

We know that both endurance exercise and strength training will enhance insulin sensitivity in the long term. This is a good thing. Unfortunately, with all of the hype surrounding the post workout window, people have started throwing out numbers related to how long insulin sensitivity is altered. While we know that heavily damaging eccentric exercise will actually reduce insulin sensitivity (Asp et al., 1996), this should be an extreme condition and not our regular response. So if you've overdone it a bit, back off and heal up!

The more common response to strength training is an increase in insulin sensitivity (Fujitani et al., 1998; Miller et al, 1984), and brand new data show even the acute effect from a single bout lasts for over 24 hours (Koopman et al., 2005). So while we'll have an enhanced whole body insulin sensitivity following resistance training, this effect is even greater for 24 hours following exercise!

Steeerike THREE for the one hour post workout window!






8. Whey is a "fast" protein, ideal for post workout.

Back when it first came out, whey protein was pretty kick ass because it was discovered to be very high quality. Then research came out that made it even more kick ass, because we could classify it as a "fast" digesting protein compared to casein (Boirie et al., 1997).

You know what? This research stands today, because compared to casein, whey protein really is fast! Then again, a tortoise is also fast compared to a snail, but that doesn't mean we want to take a tortoise to a greyhound park. In other words, we've been considering whey a "fast" protein only because we've been comparing it to something incredibly slow. When we compare the digestibility of whey to the gold standard of amino acids, on which we base nearly all of our post workout nutritional data, whey flat out sucks.

This is incredibly frustrating because all of the ways to maximize protein synthesis we've been discussing have used amino acids. So we need to either use pure amino acids or use something that closely resembles their absorptive properties. This is where whey protein hydrolysate comes in. The protein is already broken up into large peptides, so we get a rapid absorption with peak levels reaching the blood at around 80 minutes (Calbet and MacLean, 2002), compared to 60 minutes for pharmaceutical grade amino acids (Borsheim et al., 2002).

Unfortunately, even the highly touted whey isolate is completely useless for our timing purposes here, because it just takes too long to get taken up by the gut (Dangin et al., 2002). This is all discussed in more detail in the official product review of Surge, complete with graphs of blood amino acid profiles: http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=459463

In light of these data and the growing body of literature contradicting the versatility and usefulness of whey protein, it should henceforth be classified as "moderate" or "intermediate" speed protein, with only whey hydrolysate and amino acids existing as truly "fast."

It may be difficult to adjust our thinking, but this is simply more dogma that needs to be destroyed in order to bring us up to date with the proper application of research.

9. Using antioxidants post workout enhances recovery.

Here's another myth that just makes sense: we work out, cause all kinds of damage to our bodies, then we use antioxidants to help clean up the mess. Simple and sweet. The reality? Neither simple or sweet. In fact, it may not surprise you to find that there is a clear lack of data on antioxidant supplementation following exercise.

Taking a step back to look at the basis for the theory, it's been shown that damaging eccentric exercise didn't change the normal levels of our body's antioxidants (Child et al., 1999). In other words, our body has a natural antioxidant defense capability, and this was not stressed at all despite the exercise and the subsequent muscle damage.

This is contradicted by other data showing that there is an impact of exercise on natural antioxidant levels (Lee et al., 2002; Goldfarb et al., 2005), but clearly the case is not closed. With this conflicting research, you'd have to wonder if antioxidant supplementation would have any effect at all! Oh it does, my oxidized friend, but the effects are not what we'd expect!

Once again, here's one of the most underrated research papers of the last 5 years-take note folks because this is one of those studies you need to know about. This groundbreaking research by Childs and buddies (2001) examined the impact of post workout antioxidant supplementation on subsequent muscle damage and healing.

You'll be shocked to know they found that this practice actually increased muscle damage and delayed recovery! That's right, the microtrauma experienced by the muscle cells was exacerbated by the antioxidants. With this, the greater the damage, the more time it takes to repair.

It seems that there are pro-oxidant effects happening here, meaning that the "antioxidants" actually started causing the damage they were meant to clean up! While this effect is thought to occur with excessive antioxidant use, it's surprising that these effects were seen at a Vitamin C dosage of ~1100mg and ~900mg N-Acetyl Cysteine per day, for a 200 lb guy, neither of which are all that incredibly high. To my knowledge, this is the only study to investigate antioxidant supplementation after strength training. This makes the findings incredibly powerful because they are directly applicable to us!





 On a personal note, I was pretty blown away when I read this paper because I'd been using Vitamin C post workout for years. While these data aren't strong enough to make me swear off antioxidants altogether, they clearly show that we can overdo it quite easily with these supplements. More importantly, these data help us rethink the post workout window dogma.

10. Aspirin and ibuprofen are good anti-inflammatories for muscle recovery.

The topic of muscle inflammation is pretty hot these days because it's thought that minimizing this natural response will enhance recovery. By allowing us to hit the gym or get back on the field quicker, we can once again stimulate our bodies with a hard training session.

While the theory holds some water, we need to be careful how far we take it. For example, the use of traditional pain relievers, like aspirin and ibuprofen, has been increasingly common, because most people just don't like the feeling of muscle soreness (T-Nation readers excepted because we're hardly "most people").

A common effect of these pain relievers is that they exert a powerful anti-inflammatory effect. This fact has excited some budding pseudo-scientists, because they reason that using these common drugs will reduce muscle inflammation and enhance recovery. Great theory, poor applicability.

Early research showed that post workout use of these drugs inhibited our natural production of a chemical necessary for muscle growth and repair (Trappe et al., 2001). Further investigation showed that sure enough, muscle protein synthesis was completely shut down when these drugs were combined with strength training (Trappe et al., 2002). As a final kick in the teeth, using these drugs resulted in no effect on either inflammation (Peterson et al., 2003), or muscle soreness (Trappe et al., 2002).

Essentially we get the worst of all worlds when combining nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drugs (NSAIDS) like aspirin and ibuprofen, with strength straining. Having said that, it is important to note that there are several different ways of affecting inflammation, some may be good, others are clearly bad. Keep in the back of your mind that limiting inflammation is a good idea, but certainly be aware that it is not universally beneficial.






Ten Take Home Points

-glycogen restoration is all too easy to achieve and may not be as critical as once thought

-protein synthesis needs to be the focus of our recovery intervention

-pre-workout meals actually enhance muscle blood flow and nutrient delivery during exercise

-pre-workout meals, nocturnal feeding, and multiple post workout drinks are more beneficial than a single post workout drink

-the "post workout window" lasts at least 24 hours

-consuming a protein shake immediately after training hinders optimal results

-strength training acutely enhances insulin sensitivity for at least 24 hours

-whey protein is generally only moderate speed, while whey hydrolysate and pure amino acids are "fast"

-antioxidants taken after exercise may increase muscle damage and delay recovery

-aspirin and ibuprofen can prevent the exercise-induced elevation in muscle protein synthesis thus hindering growth and prolonging recovery

Five Frequently Asked Questions

FAQ: If we don't care about glycogen, then why would we use high glycemic carbs post workout?

A: Don't forget that the main goal is to maximize protein synthesis, which is likely accomplished using quickly absorbed carbohydrates and greatly elevating insulin.

FAQ: In the study with the pre workout drink, what did they consume and when did they drink it?

A: Pure amino acids and sucrose were consumed immediately before training started.

FAQ: Doesn't consuming carbs before a workout cause a blood sugar crash during the workout?

A: Usually no, our catecholamine response seems to keep out blood sugar elevated without problems. But if you're just starting to try this, consume carbs during the workout or have them ready just in case.

FAQ: If there is a 24-hour post workout window, why do we care about consuming multiple drinks?

A: The multiple drink method is still the best way to maximize our anabolic response following training. We take advantage of this "window" by spiking our blood amino acid level as often as we can.

FAQ: If there is a 24-hour post workout window, why do we care about fast or intermediate speed proteins?

A: The multiple drink method can only be used when fast proteins or amino acids are consumed. It just doesn't work with intermediate speed proteins.

CONCLUSIONS

It's safe to say that we've been brought up to date with the current research regarding strength training and nutrition. Perhaps more importantly it's clear that the post workout dogma has been destroyed. Unfortunately, with all of this destruction going on, there is a knowledge gap that needs to be filled, which will allow us to apply these new findings.

In other words, we need to figure out what all of this science stuff means, and how we can best use it to our advantage. In an upcoming article, I'll introduce the Anabolic Index: a detailed blueprint for making use of this latest information, allowing us to maximize our anabolic potential.

Until then, Raise the Barr!

Thanks to: Nathan Devey, Nathan Dewsbury, Tan Huaiyu, Jonathan Boyle, my Phrenologist Dr. Ryan Smith, and everyone who helped review this document.

Dave can be reached via e-mail at [email protected]

References

1. Arnal MA, Mosoni L, Boirie Y, Houlier ML, Morin L, Verdier E, Ritz P, Antoine JM, Prugnaud J, Beaufrere B, Mirand PP. Protein pulse feeding improves protein retention in elderly women. Am J Clin Nutr. 1999 Jun;69(6):1202-8

2. Asp S, Daugaard JR, Kristiansen S, Kiens B, Richter EA. Eccentric exercise decreases maximal insulin action in humans: muscle and systemic effects. J Physiol. 1996 Aug 1;494 ( Pt 3):891-8.

3. Boirie Y, Dangin M, Gachon P, Vasson MP, Maubois JL, Beaufrere B. Slow and fast dietary proteins differently modulate postprandial protein accretion. Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 1997 Dec 23;94(26):14930-5.

4. Borsheim E, Tipton KD, Wolf SE, Wolfe RR. Essential amino acids and muscle protein recovery from resistance exercise. Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab. 2002 Oct;283(4):E648-57.

5. Calbet JA, MacLean DA. Plasma glucagon and insulin responses depend on the rate of appearance of amino acids after ingestion of different protein solutions in humans. J Nutr. 2002 Aug;132(8):2174-82.

6. Child R, Brown S, Day S, Donnelly A, Roper H, Saxton J. Changes in indices of antioxidant status, lipid peroxidation and inflammation in human skeletal muscle after eccentric muscle actions. Clin Sci (Lond). 1999 Jan;96(1):105-15.

7. Childs A, Jacobs C, Kaminski T, Halliwell B, Leeuwenburgh C. Supplementation with vitamin C and N-acetyl-cysteine increases oxidative stress in humans after an acute muscle injury induced by eccentric exercise. Free Radic Biol Med. 2001 Sep 15;31(6):745-53.

8. Coggins M, Lindner J, Rattigan S, Jahn L, Fasy E, Kaul S, Barrett E. Physiologic hyperinsulinemia enhances human skeletal muscle perfusion by capillary recruitment. Diabetes. 2001 Dec;50(12):2682-90.

9. Dangin M, Boirie Y, Garcia-Rodenas C, Gachon P, Fauquant J, Callier P, Ballevre O, Beaufrere B. The digestion rate of protein is an independent regulating factor of postprandial protein retention Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab 280: E340-E348, 2001

10. Dangin M, Guillet C, Garcia-Rodenas C, Gachon P, Bouteloup-Demange C, Reiffers-Magnani K, Fauquant J, Ballevre O, Beaufrere B. The rate of protein digestion affects protein gain differently during aging in humans. Physiol. 2003 Jun 1;549(Pt 2):635-44.

11. Esmarck B, Andersen JL, Olsen S, Richter EA, Mizuno M, Kjaer M. Timing of postexercise protein intake is important for muscle hypertrophy with resistance training in elderly humans. J Physiol. 2001 Aug 15;535(Pt 1):301-11.

12. Fujitani J, Higaki Y, Kagawa T, Sakamoto M, Kiyonaga A, Shindo M, Taniguchi A, Nakai Y, Tokuyama K, Tanaka H. Intravenous glucose tolerance test-derived glucose effectiveness in strength-trained humans. Metabolism. 1998 Jul;47(7):874-7.

13. Goldfarb AH, Bloomer RJ, McKenzie MJ. Combined antioxidant treatment effects on blood oxidative stress after eccentric exercise. Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2005 Feb;37(2):234-9.

14. Ivy JL, Katz AL, Cutler CL, Sherman WM, Coyle EF. Muscle glycogen synthesis after exercise: effect of time of carbohydrate ingestion. J Appl Physiol. 1988 Apr;64(4):1480-5.

15. Koopman R, Manders RJ, Zorenc AH, Hul GB, Kuipers H, Keizer HA, van Loon LJ. A single session of resistance exercise enhances insulin sensitivity for at least 24 h in healthy men. Eur J Appl Physiol. 2005 May;94(1-2):180-7.

16. Lee J, Goldfarb AH, Rescino MH, Hegde S, Patrick S, Apperson K. Eccentric exercise effect on blood oxidative-stress markers and delayed onset of muscle soreness. Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2002 Mar;34(3):443-8.

17. Levenhagen DK, Gresham JD, Carlson MG, Maron DJ, Borel MJ, Flakoll PJ. Postexercise nutrient intake timing in humans is critical to recovery of leg glucose and protein homeostasis. Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab. 2001 Jun;280(6):E982-93.

18. Louis M, Poortmans JR, Francaux M, Berre J, Boisseau N, Brassine E, Cuthbertson DJ, Smith K, Babraj JA, Waddell T, Rennie MJ. No effect of creatine supplementation on human myofibrillar and sarcoplasmic protein synthesis after resistance exercise. Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab. 2003 Nov;285(5):E1089-94.

19. MacDougall JD, Gibala MJ, Tarnopolsky MA, MacDonald JR, Interisano SA, Yarasheski KE. The time course for elevated muscle protein synthesis following heavy resistance exercise. Can J Appl Physiol. 1995 Dec;20(4):480-6.

20. Miller WJ, Sherman WM, Ivy JL. Effect of strength training on glucose tolerance and post-glucose insulin response. Med Sci Sports Exerc. 1984 Dec;16(6):539-43.

21. Pascoe DD, Costill DL, Fink WJ, Robergs RA, Zachwieja JJ. Glycogen resynthesis in skeletal muscle following resistive exercise. Med Sci Sports Exerc. 1993 Mar;25(3):349-54.

22. Peterson JM, Trappe TA, Mylona E, White F, Lambert CP, Evans WJ, Pizza FX. Ibuprofen and acetaminophen: effect on muscle inflammation after eccentric exercise. Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2003 Jun;35(6):892-6.

23. Phillips SM, Tipton KD, Aarsland A, Wolf SE, Wolfe RR. Mixed muscle protein synthesis and breakdown after resistance exercise in humans. Am J Physiol. 1997 Jul;273(1 Pt 1):E99-107.

24. Phillips SM, Parise G, Roy BD, Tipton KD, Wolfe RR, Tamopolsky MA.

Resistance-training-induced adaptations in skeletal muscle protein turnover in the fed state. Can J Physiol Pharmacol. 2002 Nov;80(11):1045-53.

25. Rasmussen, BB, Tipton KD, Miller SL, Wolf SE, and Wolfe RR. An oral essential amino acid-carbohydrate supplement enhances muscle protein anabolism after resistance exercise. J Appl Physiol 88: 386-392, 2000

26. Tipton KD, Rasmussen BB, Miller SL, Wolf SE, Owens-Stovall SK, Petrini BE, Wolfe RR. Timing of amino acid-carbohydrate ingestion alters anabolic response of muscle to resistance exercise. Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab. 2001 Aug;281(2):E197-206

27. Tipton KD, Borsheim E, Wolf SE, Sanford AP, Wolfe RR. Acute response of net muscle protein balance reflects 24-h balance after exercise and amino acid ingestion. Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab. 2003 Jan;284(1):E76-89.

28. Trappe TA, Fluckey JD, White F, Lambert CP, Evans WJ. Skeletal muscle PGF(2)(alpha) and PGE(2) in response to eccentric resistance exercise: influence of ibuprofen acetaminophen. J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2001 Oct;86(10):5067-70.

29. Trappe TA, White F, Lambert CP, Cesar D, Hellerstein M, Evans WJ.

Effect of ibuprofen and acetaminophen on postexercise muscle protein synthesis. Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab. 2002 Mar;282(3):E551-6.



© 1998 - 2005 Testosterone, LLC. All Rights Reserved.
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## Ironman

bump

Some interesting points here - like the 2 pwo drinks - makes sence.

Drinking protien immediatly after a workout actually inhibits protien synthesis.

Anybody else have any thoughts on this?


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## tkd

it is slightly confusing, as i thought a pwo was necessary to prevent a catabolic state...but there is only 1 way to find out: trial and error ! try it out and see if it works.


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## crazycacti

tom platz always believed to leave it at least an hour to an hour and a half to have a PWO shake


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## hackskii

It was suggesting the use before workout.


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## crazycacti

ah - i was picking up on ironmans point before i read the whole article - i found the link i was going on about anyway....

look at q. 5

http://www.tomplatz.com/smb/quiz.htm


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## hackskii

I missed one but I in the chicken wings but was going to pick that then changed my mind.


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## winger

crazycacti said:


> ah - i was picking up on ironmans point before i read the whole article - i found the link i was going on about anyway....
> 
> look at q. 5
> 
> http://www.tomplatz.com/smb/quiz.htm


I got 100% yee haw.

Tom says 1.5 hours later and condones early workouts.


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## Ironman

I kind of do take a pre workout drink - just a blend of whey and bananas about 30 mins before I train. But this can vary.


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## winger

Ironman said:


> I kind of do take a pre workout drink - just a blend of whey and bananas about 30 mins before I train. But this can vary.


Isn't 30 minutes a bit too early? For me it is, not having a go just curious.


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## Ironman

winger said:


> Isn't 30 minutes a bit too early? For me it is, not having a go just curious.


I seem to handle it ok - Its not a big drink as I dont want anything heavy on my stomach - and I mix it with lots of water.


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## winger

Ironman said:


> I seem to handle it ok - Its not a big drink as I dont want anything heavy on my stomach - and I mix it with lots of water.


I agree. If I have to much in my stomach I cant get a pump.


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## Tinytom

Recently I've started to have 10g of whey isolate with 10g of simple carbs in a water suspension during my workout. I used to have just water before and during workout but I've noticed that this small amount of nutrients during WO helps me to stay quitestrong throughout.

As for PWO shake

I tend to have this after I've showered and changed (after 20 mins cardio) so it works out about 45 minutes after.


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## BIG-UNC

water suspension???? what does this mean? do you meen just mixed with

water TT?...unc


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## Captain Hero

crazycacti said:


> tom platz always believed to leave it at least an hour to an hour and a half to have a PWO shake


im starting to believe this might be a good idea too.


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## Peg

I do know that it is important healthwise to have the glycogen stores in the liver at an adequate level as an energy source before work-out. I do know that we want to burn the fat and not the muscle when we are working out. When exactly does the process go from glycogen to fat burning?

I know for my MA classes I need to have complex carbs one hour and a half before class or I will get dizzy in the middle of class and not be able to go all out. It is the same with my weight training.

Too much protein on my stomach and my training is no good.

If I miss a meal in the morning, my training later is no good.

Since I am not competing and I am not wanting bulk, I will listen to my body and it tells me what I need and when I need.

I find that it is no one part of the diet, ie, PWO drink, that is critical.

I find that it is the whole day's intake of nutrients that makes a difference.

If you fudge on one part, the other parts are affected.

I find that sometimes we forget the whole picture and just focus on one aspect of it similarly to saying vitamin C will help keep us from getting sick.

It is only one part of the whole process that the body uses to keep the body healthy.

So to is the PWO drink before and after.

The body eats before it needs the nutrition for the energy it needs.

Think about infants. They go through "fat" stages getting ready for an increase in their growth stages...

Interesting article, Winger. Thank you!

Tinytom: having something during work-out seems a reasonable thing if the body is needing more energy. Do you feel hungry or is there a sense that you need to have carbs, water or protein. Isolate, is that already protein that is partially broken down for fast absorption? I'm still trying to get all the terminology straight in my mind.

Do you have a sense from your body that it is wanting protein? My body tells me "sugar' water in the middle of my work out.


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## winger

I eat a ballanced meal of proteins, fats and carbs before training about 1.5 hours before I train.

For me, and it might be only me, but that is the sweet spot.

If I eat late which I dont do, I dont get a good pump and actually I dont feel like I got full energy.

I train hard and fast, kind of like how I like my sex............lol.

IMO, if you are training for hours then you might need more quick food to sustain your workout. But then again if you are training for hours a day you are waisting your time and energy that could be spent for recuperation.


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## Peg

The human body is a complex interdependent machine of awesome efficiency and beauty.

I tend to look for the patterns in nature and follow them. Have you ever noticed the seasons and the different foods that occur in the different seasons??? I think there is a reason for that occurance.

Our bodies benefit from those cyclic seasonal changes.

1. The human body prepares for change. Watch how an infant goes through phases of eating and not eating during growth spurts and non growth spurts.

Our children get fat when we ignore these spurts and force them to eat when the body is not hungry.

2. The human body uses that preparation to continue it's function during and after the change.

Free Radicals, Exercise, and Antioxidant Supplementation

It has always been a staple for me to prepare for demand on the body.

In the preparation, the body has what it needs to endure and recover from the demand.

Common sense and the observations of nature suggest that it is more important to have a *complex carbohydrate protein shake with sufficient antioxidants and protein BEFORE the workout *to give the body what it needs.

PWO - I listen to my body as it prepares for the next demand on it.

I usually am not hungry right after the work out. I am incredibly thirsty and sugar hungry. I drink a powerade or water...

Sometimes I am protein hungry as well. I eat a handful or two of mixed nuts. Now this goes against the grain of no fats after workout... but I need fat for the vitamin A that is in my body and I need those B vitamins and zinc for biochemical energy to repair and restore.

I don't eat a post work out meal until about one hour after a work-out simply because my body does not tell me I'm hungry for substantial food until then.

I must trust my body to know what it needs.

I must fill my mind with knowledge of what foods contain what nutrients and train my mind to associate those foods with what my body says it needs.

When I do that successfully, I lose weight, have energy, and have powerful workouts that accomplish the change I seek.

With so much conflicting research and so many variables that can affect the outcome of that research, I will remember to focus on the whole picture of health and not just one aspect of it.

The body knows.

Learn its rhythms and seasons and work with it.

We tend to work in the deficit, when the body wants to work with the plus.


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## Captain Hero

Peg said:


> Tinytim: having something during work-out seems a reasonable thing if the body is needing more energy. Do you feel hungry or is there a sense that you need to have carbs, water or protein. Isolate, is that already protein that is partially broken down for fast absorption? I'm still trying to get all the terminology straight in my mind.
> 
> .


LOL at Tinytim, Peg Tiny Tim was the dying boy in a muppets christmas carol


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## LondonGeezer

still.. in the article it said.. The multiple drink method can only be used when fast proteins or amino acids are consumed. It just doesn't work with intermediate speed proteins.

saying this then.. to have a pre-workout protein drink and then a post-workout protein drink and then maybe another throughout the day and the next morning just wont hack being efficient enough as using the faster protein and we'll be wasting valuable "open window" time.

so stick to just the pre-workout and post-workout shake? and pre-workout and post-workout meals..?? no point in morning shakes because its not as effective or will it still have some effect?

because all of the protein shakes ive come across are WHEY PROTEIN, this is the first time ive heard of that faster protein.


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## hackskii

I think you would be better off using diffrent whole food selections for your main sources of protein.

I do notice I have some stinky breath with whey protein:eek:


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## LondonGeezer

yehhh!! i just bougth this tub of optimum nutrition 100% whey last week and after a shake my mouth goes all dry and sticky and moments later if i dont brush or rinse my mouth or do SOMETHING it gets sticky on the lips and thats wen u kno uh-ohhh lol


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## winger

If I have said it once I will say it again.

I have yet to see what man can copy what God has perfected.

I dont drink pre/post work out shakes, just eat at the right window and you will be fine.


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## LondonGeezer

Winger do you not use protein shakes at all? if you can cram in all the proteins from eating food then your far ahead mate..


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## winger

LondonGeezer said:


> Winger do you not use protein shakes at all? if you can cram in all the proteins from eating food then your far ahead mate..


 No shakes, unless I have to skip a meal.

We were given teeth for a reason. The more you have to chew the leaner (generalization) you will be. Why does everything have to be so fast? Fast food......get my point?

I am not directing it towards you, I just think that the magazines and the supplement companies want people to believe it works......of course, it puts cash in their pockets. :smoke:


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## LondonGeezer

no no ur absolutely spot on there mate..!! fair enuff protein shakes DO work but its the quicker route AND easier route to digest more proteins.. what is your average protein intake? do you follow the rule of 1.5g protein p/1lb of bodyweight? its a bit of an unrealistic target to be reaching if your not having shakes.

but i never hit 231g of protein a day.. i hit around 170-180g a day and im making very good gains  and 180g a day is possible with 6meals and no shakes.. i just slack my meals knowing i can make it up with a shake later. (2-3 shakes max p/day @ 24g protein each)


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## Peg

Cap said:


> LOL at Tinytim, Peg Tiny Tim was the dying boy in a muppets christmas carol


LOL!!! I'm sleep deprived and having a blonde moment.

Forgive me Tiny*tom*

Cap: You like the muppets??? I love 'em, one and all.


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## winger

LondonGeezer said:


> no no ur absolutely spot on there mate..!! fair enuff protein shakes DO work but its the quicker route AND easier route to digest more proteins.. what is your average protein intake? do you follow the rule of 1.5g protein p/1lb of bodyweight? its a bit of an unrealistic target to be reaching if your not having shakes.
> 
> but i never hit 231g of protein a day.. i hit around 170-180g a day and im making very good gains  and 180g a day is possible with 6meals and no shakes.. i just slack my meals knowing i can make it up with a shake later. (2-3 shakes max p/day @ 24g protein each)


 I actually take in about 30 grams of protein for 3 meals and 20 gram of protein for the other two meals.

So thats 130 grams of protein for a 200lb man.

I dont really think anyone can digest more than about 50 grams a sitting, but I bet it is even less than that.



Peg said:


> LOL!!! I'm sleep deprived and having a blonde moment.
> 
> Forgive me Tiny*tom*
> 
> Cap: You like the muppets??? I love 'em, one and all.


Also Tinytim sang, "Tiptoe through the Tulips".


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## hackskii

I take in around 180 grams and I am 183 lbs. this morning.


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## LondonGeezer

yeah so really if we keep dead strict diets it can be done without the shakes but seriously talking id go mad having 20/30g protein p/meal for more then 2weeks lol. Shakes make it possible


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## crazycacti

i normally agree with the hackman twins - and that doesn't change, esp with the food is best point... the thermogenic effect of food, when compared to shakes, is much greater, for example...

i also think eggs are the daddy, and often over looked - perfect food for all of us 

however i do disagree with the amount of protein guys... i get in 300g easy in a day - 250g of this coming from meat, eggs and fish....

when dieting especially, i feel it is imperitive to whack the protein up to prevent catabolism....

when bulking protein should still be kept high, but not as high because your carbs will be going up, but i'm still talking 300g for me and i'm 230 lbs atm...


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## hackskii

I just had a ground beef patty with cheese, garlic and season salt and man was that tasty.

I have 6 meals a day and all of the contain protein, except for my cheat meal last night which was pizza and I kind of went out of control on that.

It was sooooo good I could not stop myself.

Pizza is my one downfall in food.

Even the smell of it drives me bananna's.

I moan when I eat pizza.


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## hackskii

crazycacti said:


> i normally agree with the hackman twins - and that doesn't change, esp with the food is best point... the thermogenic effect of food, when compared to shakes, is much greater, for example...
> 
> i also think eggs are the daddy, and often over looked - perfect food for all of us
> 
> however i do disagree with the amount of protein guys... i get in 300g easy in a day - 250g of this coming from meat, eggs and fish....
> 
> when dieting especially, i feel it is imperitive to whack the protein up to prevent catabolism....
> 
> when bulking protein should still be kept high, but not as high because your carbs will be going up, but i'm still talking 300g for me and i'm 230 lbs atm...


Many people feel this way.

I used to too until I read this by Bill Phillips: http://www.musclemedia.com/training/abcde/v61_abc4.asp

Very long read but read about the protein and enzymes that are associated with the breakdown of protein.

Seems that very high doses of protein dont work like cycling the protein. More is not better and more is better for short runs but constantly run high has no benefits over lower consumption.

Here is a small snip:

The consequence of this is that if you habitually consume a high-protein diet, you are setting off multiple "adaptations" and alterations in how your body metabolizes protein-it influences your protein requirement.18,19 In other words, the more protein you ingest, the more you need! This may not sound so bad for a protein lover, but think twice and you will see its downside. Eventually, you will need such a high protein intake in order to generate the positive effects that health problems could occur.

Another consideration is a large amount of protein supplements could be necessary to meet the extraordinary protein requirement you've built up.

And, perhaps most importantly, if you develop this need for a high amount of protein and you miss a meal or during your long overnight fast [the time you don't eat while you're sleeping], your body is quickly thrown into a protein catabolic state. You literally have to eat protein every few hours in order to not go "catabolic."


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## crazycacti

i've read that too bro....

i also agree with cycling the protein, as well as everything else, such as vits ect...

imo (i know Tom Blackman also believes this...) the body grows in spurts... this is one way in which you can tie in cycling the protein...


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## hackskii

But consumption of high protein all the time up's the requirement for more protein.

Its like drinking.

If you do it only once and a while just a few drinks gets you hammered. You drink every day then it takes much more to get the same effect.

This is controlled by enzymes, same as the protein issue is controlled by enzymes.

Like dieting, restrict the cals then the body loses weight up untill a point, then the body adjustes and weight loss is halted.

It is all relative.


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## crazycacti

aye....

refeed days when dieting....

'defeed' days when bulking...

this is bang on what i do.... working well at the moment


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## hackskii

Well, I am on a cycle of test and igf right now and I seem to be gaining muscle and losing fat at the same time.

How cool is that?

I love how I feel on test.

Man, went out last night and I find myself much more aggressive with the chicks.

Talking to this fat one last night and she is a nympho, I had wood talking to her and she is massive

Got a hair cut yesterday and was flirting with this asian lady that has cut my hair for around 3 years and she is older than me but looks good for her age and it was like she was taking the bait too.

Then at the bar the waitress (which is taller than me) said something about me asking her for her phone number.

I was all arrogent and said if I wanted her number I would ask and she will give it to me.

She was taken back my me being so fwd and confident.

Man, I love testosterone, I feel like massive sexual desires on cycle.

I remember being like that when I was young but not at 46, soon to be 47

Its strange.


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## crazycacti

i know what you mean there bud!

its just the close to tears PCT feeling i don't like (3 weeks in now  lol!)


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## hackskii

crazycacti said:


> i know what you mean there bud!
> 
> its just the close to tears PCT feeling i don't like (3 weeks in now  lol!)


I know what you mean.

But if you have a good plan in place this is the best you can hope for.

Nothin like a good game plan I say.


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## winger

There is a guy at the gym I go to named Arial. He is this short Filipino looking guy. He is probably about 5'4" tall and weighs in at about 150 lbs. He is so shreaded and probably pound for pound the strongest guy in the gym.

He is 100% vegitarian. He eats no meats, fish, foul or eggs.

He also does dips and pullups everywork.

In my opinion he over trains and doesn't take in enough protein but he obviously is doing somthing right.

He always looks the same and he doesn't do any gear. It's a mystery to say the least.

I should snap a pic of him you guys would trip out.

Crazycacti, good luck on your pct mate!


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## LondonGeezer

definatly winger i'd like to see this picture.. is he slapping in 20shakes a day along with his pods & peas? lol


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## winger

LondonGeezer said:


> definatly winger i'd like to see this picture.. is he slapping in 20shakes a day along with his pods & peas? lol


No shakes eather. The guy is amazing.

He does seated 100 lb db's for military. I cant even swing the hundreds up yet alone military them.

I see him about 3-4 times a week and I will snap a pic for sure.


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## LondonGeezer

damn.. filipino u say.. it brings a thought to mind. I had a mate who did no gym work.. drank like a horse and ate like a pig, smoked weed and cigerettes like there wos no tomorow.. yeh if i gave him a dumbell with 24kg on it he'd curl it.. he got 8reps from a 24kg dumbell and EXCELLENT movement.. didnt lean back to bring it up completely straight.. strained on the last few but that's expected.. and you wont believe the best bit.. he's 17 in october. this goes about 6months back he curled 24kg in my room and i wos like 

now he's quit smoking, quit drugs & alcohol and bought himself a home gym.. i saw him last week (we dont talk nemore) he is bigg. wish i had that natural strength stuff


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## hackskii

winger said:


> No shakes eather. The guy is amazing.
> 
> He does seated 100 lb db's for military. I cant even swing the hundreds up yet alone military them.
> 
> I see him about 3-4 times a week and I will snap a pic for sure.


I know this guy; he looks totally awesome and shredded. Asian of some sort.

Super strong and looks awesome.

Great genetics.

He is a vegetarian. I think, I don't like his routine, I don't like his diet, but this dude looks awesome.

Kind of resets what you think or preach.

Maybe just maybe all that other stuff does not matter and his genetics keep him for what he does, tip top?

I think I know more than him but what if I swapped bodies with him, can I improve upon his physique?

Hell, maybe not.

Maybe he has super high testosterone levels with great genetics?

I don't have high testosterone and I don't have good genetics either.

Strange&#8230;..

What if?

Makes me wonder none the less.

I am happy with my body, I think this is a good thing.

Sorry guys, it is Saturday and I have hoisted a few&#8230;&#8230;.well, that was kind of a lie.

Ok, a few and a few and quite possibly a few more&#8230;..oh dear, its ok I am having a good time.



LondonGeezer said:


> damn.. filipino u say.. it brings a thought to mind. I had a mate who did no gym work.. drank like a horse and ate like a pig, smoked weed and cigerettes like there wos no tomorow.. yeh if i gave him a dumbell with 24kg on it he'd curl it.. he got 8reps from a 24kg dumbell and EXCELLENT movement.. didnt lean back to bring it up completely straight.. strained on the last few but that's expected.. and you wont believe the best bit.. he's 17 in october. this goes about 6months back he curled 24kg in my room and i wos like
> 
> now he's quit smoking, quit drugs & alcohol and bought himself a home gym.. i saw him last week (we dont talk nemore) he is bigg. wish i had that natural strength stuff


17 is super young.

I was not strong at 17, hell I was not strong till like 25.

Even later around 30-35 I actually got stronger.

I was a late bloomer, I didnt start shaving till about 21

He is too young to smoke or drink.

At least he turned himself around, this is a good thing.

Take a pic of that dude, id like to see it.

I will post pics soon of my old, fat, ass


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## winger

Genetics are everything. 

Saturday night and I am hoisting as well, I dont post unless I have hoisted a few................:cool:


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## hackskii

winger said:


> Genetics are everything.
> 
> Saturday night and I am hoisting as well, I dont post unless I have hoisted a few................:cool:


*Right!*


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## LondonGeezer

im not hoisting nothing.. just woke up with a sore neck so puttin out the deep heat and neurofen gel and givin maself a massage sittin ere..

yeh he wos 16 at the time of curling 24kg, he beat all my uncles in an arm wrestle and they range from the ages of 21-36 i got 8 uncles and he beat them all without a strain.. he's superman lol

unfortunatly i dont think il b able to get a pic unless i stalked him becos i dont see/speak to him anymore its jus wen he drives past.. yep 17 and drivin his sisters car with not a car in the world about the law lol


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## winger

LondonGeezer said:


> im not hoisting nothing.. just woke up with a sore neck so puttin out the deep heat and neurofen gel and givin maself a massage sittin ere..
> 
> yeh he wos 16 at the time of curling 24kg, he beat all my uncles in an arm wrestle and they range from the ages of 21-36 i got 8 uncles and he beat them all without a strain.. he's superman lol
> 
> unfortunatly i dont think il b able to get a pic unless i stalked him becos i dont see/speak to him anymore its jus wen he drives past.. yep 17 and drivin his sisters car with not a car in the world about the law lol


He's on top of the world. Those kind of guys dont even need to train. Lucky bastards. :smoke:

He might need that strength when they lock him up for not obeying the law.


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## Peg

crazycacti said:


> i've read that too bro....
> 
> i also agree with cycling the protein, as well as everything else, such as vits ect...
> 
> imo (i know Tom Blackman also believes this...) *the body grows in spurts... this is one way in which you can tie in cycling the protein...*


I tend to believe this as well because of seeing it happen with my children.

They bulk before the growth spurt, then there is a lull in the eating after the growth spurt and then they bulk again for the growth spurt.

I am actually experimenting with weekly growth spurts by listening to my body and feeding it what it wants. Not what my appetite wants but what the body wants in terms of nutrition.

I am finding that the body prepares ahead of time instead of working in a deficit so I have to think ahead... still finding out how far ahead I have to think ahead.

It is an interesting study done on myself!!! I love the human body and its beauty of design and science.

I'm keeping a log of the consumption of protein/fast carbs/slow carbs/fats in relationship to my training.

I'm using all the information I have about the body and nutritional value of foods but letting go of any set pattern other than what my body tells me.

Now, it may slow down my flab loss a bit but if I can lose flab and still gain lean muscle and strength at the same time then I don't mind the slow down and waiting a bit longer for that physique I want especially if it can be maintained easily and plateaus are a minimum but natural occurance...

Perhaps plateaus are just the rest stage before the next growth phase???

I'm whirring.. Lots of questions... I'll stop...

It is fun experimenting on myself. So far the results towards my goals have been good.


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## dudz

Its been working for me Lol...


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## Guest

dutch_scott said:


> few points
> 
> from my university studys both biology and pharmacology no where does it say man can replace what the body wants to do. Period. Tom Prince said it best, eat when your hungry your muscles will tell you wen they need food.
> 
> I live by this,Some days i eat like 3 meals, 140-180g protein max, others may get 500, some days i fast almost some i eat only solids, the defeed does def make the body slow down its acitivty and hold onto protein so when you re feed you almost supercompensate and hyper growth occurs.
> 
> Worrying about eating probably does more damage than missing a meal. The body will not stop growing through a missed meal, Period.
> 
> Also the body depending on how much tissue it has to repair and what peptides and hormones it has to use can assimilate ANY ammount of protein. Saying the body can only use 50g a sitting is scientifically silly, does the body say "ah ha, 47,48,49,50, ding ding ding, the exzymes and mechanisms for the protein train are now closed please come back in 3 hours""", nope, It needs to survive so will heal its damages. fight or flight.
> 
> I strongly follow this and have been as high as 275lbs with abdominals and do not attribute it to the genetics thing everyone uses to wash over anything they cant explain.


Very interesting post mate. Do you follow a diet or eat well as and when you feel like it? Surely getting up to 275lbs would require major eating and on a regular basis?


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## bkotey

Waheed_Akhtar said:


> Very interesting post mate. Do you follow a diet or eat well as and when you feel like it? Surely getting up to 275lbs would require major eating and on a regular basis?


Cool post! I would like to agree with scott due to my inability/weakness (lol) to adhere strictly to rigid 'bulking' diets. I do feel that sometimes im forcing the food down. Im more comfortable with having a good breakfast and then playin it by ear (?) tbh.

I agree with waheed somwhat also. As If that is you in your avitar, most would reckon your diet to be more intricate and strategic than your are letting on :whistling: .


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## razzaefc

i usually work out pretty late on, if i was to use his rule and have my pwo drink an hour and half afterwards, i would be going to bed not long after,would it be o.k to drink it that close to bed, or would that be prefect timing in order to start my recovery


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## winger

Before bed I would just do straight protein.


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## Rossy Balboa

Sorry to interupt,i havent read all the posts but is it right that a shake should not be consumed immediately after workout? Cheers


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## winger

Right after.


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## Rossy Balboa

Aye,it shouldnt be taken right after workout? Just to clarify,because this is wot i have been doing lol!


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## hackskii

Should


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## Rossy Balboa

Ah good! Thought i'd be doing it wrong lol! Cheers for clearing that up!


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## epod11

Hi,

I to was told this by my trainer

www.igmuscle.co.uk


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## scottbourn

any good one to recomend ?


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## hackskii

Chocolate milk.


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