# Assumptions about steroid use!!!



## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

A lot of the time you see people requesting advice and the same answers are always given

1) your not ready for steroids

2) look at your diet and training

3) thats too many compounds

4) tren is for an advanced user

5) only need 250mg week to grow

etc etc

The list goes on..

NOW, while im not saying any of this is bad advice, you have to think outside the box for person specific requirements..

For instance...

A lot of people will chastise and say "start on 250mg week test and work up to different compounds as you progress"

That is alll very well if say that person has a linear progression in mind and a long term goal to compete lets say

All very sensible, starting on 250mg test, see sides, add in dbol next time, add maybe deca time after etc etc

So the long haul as it were...

Now what if some one was not really in it for the long haul, was impatient (like me) and wanted gains straight away, has no plans to compete, just wants to be "hench as fck" for summer and will prob stop training in a few years when interest wains???

SO want a cycle to be "hench as fck"

Now if come asked myself, I would explain sides and prob suggest a test tren and oral poss Dbol cycle

As long as risks explained, sides are not any worse on a advanced drug user to a beginner?? so whats the big deal..

Also you all assume every one has same regard for health and should all be conscious of that fact

Well some, just want to be big and wil take the consequences (if any), so if they not worried why are you???

Why does diet have to be right??? you can gain on sh1t diet with aas .

Why cant tren used 1st cycle

Why are certain drugs only for "advanced althetes"

If you have the money and prepared to take risk, why is it more acceptable for a competitive BBder to use large amounts of aas, as opposed to a bicep boy who just wants to nail chicks??

Both goals are as important to the individual as each other, in fact IMO getting nailed has more benefitial real world applications than plastic trophys

Just My opinion, and as Dutch Scott freely admits is his main inspiration for training, and why not!!!

And for the record its my opinion if we were to look at side effects, the long term linear progresive user would IMO have more chance of getting medical problems than the few time mega dose bicep boy user who wil give up training in a few years


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## WRT (May 21, 2009)

Agree with you there, for first cycle (when I get round to doing it) is gonna be 600mg test 300 tren and 30mg dbol, not a 250mg test cycle.


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## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

WRT said:


> Agree with you there, for first cycle (when I get round to doing it) is gonna be 600mg test 300 tren and 30mg dbol, not a 250mg test cycle.


Good man:thumb:

Should gain from that lol


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## Smitch (Dec 29, 2008)

Can't wait to see how this thread turns out. :thumb:


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## Smitch (Dec 29, 2008)

WRT said:


> Agree with you there, for first cycle (when I get round to doing it) is gonna be 600mg test 300 tren and 30mg dbol, not a 250mg test cycle.


And he's only 15 years old.


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## YetiMan1436114545 (Dec 7, 2007)

Hey I wanna get henchererer like you J dubz! Help!


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## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

YetiMan said:


> Hey I wanna get henchererer like you J dubz! Help!


See me after class young man  xxx


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## geeby112 (Mar 15, 2008)

Do agree with you

Alot assume if its the 1st course dont do tren:confused1: i mean even after 5 courses im sure the tren sides will still be the same.


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## Incredible Bulk (Sep 19, 2007)

jw007 said:


> 1) your not ready for steroids


Unless the guys 15 years old this answer frustrates me, if he's asking...he's pretty much already broken the amp and swabbed the site.



jw007 said:


> 2) look at your diet and training


This is a fair question but shouldnt be the only one, it should be asked after the guy posts 4 weeks later saying that he thinks his gear is bunk when in fact the McDonalds diet isnt working.



jw007 said:


> 3) thats too many compounds


One of my pet peeves

cycle one - stereotypical 500mg wk for 10-12 weeks

cycle two - 1g test + tren + dbol + + +

If you grew off 500mg, chances are you'll do well again on that cycle.



jw007 said:


> 4) tren is for an advanced user


Its a tool in the tool chest, no different than saying AAS is for the advanced user PMSL



jw007 said:


> 5) only need 250mg week to grow


Its best to advise IMO the conventional than to advise tripling the dose for no reason. What you then start is the self defeating pattern that more = more.

Soon the guy will be on his 4th cycle but on 2g+ + + + + yet looking still like the guy sub 1g.



jw007 said:


> That is alll very well if say that person has a linear progression in mind and a long term goal to compete lets say


Thats the thing, do you want another opening answer to the guys thread, "hey, do you just wanna get big or do you plan to compete?"

If the guy wants size NOW and doesnt care for the long game then that type of openess doesnt come out of the OP until page 3 of the thread.

Until then people will take the most common route on answering?

If i hear hooves, i think horse.... i dont think zebra


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## B-GJOE (May 7, 2009)

Well I'm guilty of giving all of the advice above. IMO there are too many chavs in Gyms knocking back all sorts of stuff, and they still look like they have never stepped foot on a Gym door. So I'm going to stick with my advice to those who 'in for the long haul'

However, live and let live. If people want to 'go for it' knowing the risks to 'get hench' then that's up to them. In such cases though they still need to understand exactly what it means to 'eat like fcuk' and train 'fcuking heavy' because a lot will go juicing on 3 meals a day doing pec dec, and curls all day.

Just look at all theads on here like:

I'm not gaining on 500mg Test E and 50mg Dbol what am i doing wrong?

Not gaining thinking about doing a cycle

First course what do you think

yadda yadda yadda

My point is this JW. If you have made the decision to get hooooge and you don't care how you get there, then you wouldn't be posting on a forum like this asking for opinions. You'd research yourself, then just do it.

To be asking opinions means you aint sure, and if you aint sure about

a) Whether to Juice

B) How to take Juice

then you AINT ready!


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## Craig660 (Dec 8, 2005)

WRT said:


> Agree with you there, for *first cycle* (when I get round to doing it) is gonna be 600mg test 300 tren and 30mg dbol, not a 250mg test cycle.


Not sure if your serious here - but if you havnt used steroids yet then id love to be in your position!!


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## Rossy Balboa (Nov 6, 2008)

I do agree with you actually mate,and tbh I dont see myself taking gear for years to come...I will train but want to get to a stage where I am happy with my body and can maintain it as a natty or with pep's. May re-think my next course lol.....

On the other hand though,I would probablys grow on little doses of gear so there would be no point in using loads.....There's pro's and con's really....


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## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

B|GJOE said:


> Well I'm guilty of giving all of the advice above. IMO there are too many chavs in Gyms knocking back all sorts of stuff, and they still look like they have never stepped foot on a Gym door. So I'm going to stick with my advice to those who 'in for the long
> 
> My point is this JW. If you have made the decision to get hooooge and you don't care how you get there, then you wouldn't be posting on a forum like this asking for opinions. You'd research yourself, then just do it.
> 
> ...


with regards your point, some peope are not lucky enough to train in a gym with experienced guys.

So your point about asking questions on a forum like this is not valid in this instance as they have to start research somewhere and why not a forum ( however some of replies they get I wonder why they bother)

sure I agree if in a gym where aas freely available from experienced BBders then sure I agree.

Some good points made tho


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## B-GJOE (May 7, 2009)

jw007 said:


> with regards your point, some peope are not lucky enough to train in a gym with experienced guys.
> 
> So your point about asking questions on a forum like this is not valid in this instance as they have to start research somewhere and why not a forum ( however some of replies they get I wonder why they bother)
> 
> ...


Fair points too fellow Joe.

Being one that likes to read between the lines. In most posts you can pretty much tell the Ops aint sure about their own decisions. Maybe if someone started a thread:

Wanna be huge - How do I get there

and the first post said

I've made a decision to be huge. I know about the side effects of gear, and I am prepared to take the risks. Don't tell me not to juice, because I'll do it anyway, so please advise accordingly.

Then yes, your points are absolutely valid. I've come accross people before in the Gym who you just know are going to go for it, regardless of what you say. So in these instances I DO give what advice I can, so they get what they want.


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## coll_gt4 (Dec 2, 2009)

see this is what am talking about i have been training hard now for 1 and a half years after a break i want to do a first cycle i dont want to compete i just want to get large but there is so mutch advice out there i was thinking about doing 12 weeks test e and 4 week front load of dbol unfortunantly i dont train with experianced guys and evrything i have learnd up till now is from this site

i think if am gonna do a 12 week cycle i may as well go balls to the wall and take what i can to get the best effects as long as i know the risks to my health as for those 12 weeks i aint gonna drink go out just eat and train and work

when i think about it the amount off hash coke speed and e i threw down my neck as a youngster surely thats more harmful coupled with alchol than a 12 week course of gear

but dont know not a doctor

i know you just cant walk into taking gear blindly but i bet some peeps have


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## BillC (Jun 11, 2009)

Those of us who started in the early 90's on dem der roids, never heard of anything as stupid as 500mg/ week test only cycle. My first test/ deca / dbol. d-bol all way through too, why stop with front load when it was working so well :lol: What was normal though was to have a good few years behind you first as pct? wtf do you mean pct? so training off cycle needed practice.

Upon trying dem der roids again last year 500mg test only having not used for 12 years, got to say it was sh!t. Yes gained, yes felt good, but [email protected] compared to test /deca d-bol, no coparison. So basically up the dose you pansies. :lol:


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## WRT (May 21, 2009)

Craig660 said:


> Not sure if your serious here - but if you havnt used steroids yet then id love to be in your position!!


No mate haven't used before.


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

i actually agree with you JW but the problem i see is i would not be comfortable with giving out the advice you mentioned above without knowing more about the individual....

yes you can gain on a sh1t diet hell i did it when i started but then my gains have been much much greater on alot less gear when i did sort my diet......so i do think this is a must plus if your diet is sorted then you will keep more of what you gain.....

as for doses i do believe that you should start low but the type of gear is down to the individual in saying this many newbies want to take compounds like Tren because they see it as taboo rather than they need it......

i don't give out advice on the forum concerning AAS that much nowadays mainly because i feel guys will use what they want no matter the advice the majority just want someone to say that they are good to go.......

the one you left out is that the assumption is that if you have used any steroid you know everything and can give advice.....


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## Wasp (Nov 1, 2009)

So...

5g of test for 12 weeks will make me jay cutler?


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## flynnie11 (Jan 24, 2009)

my first cycle was 850-900mg test with a bit of dbol for first 6 weeks and i got flamed to ****... gained 11kg in 10 weeks , big strenght gains and size gains.

i think alot of people who do 500mg test for a cycle , are often dissapointed with the gains they make


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## coll_gt4 (Dec 2, 2009)

flynnie11 said:


> my first cycle was 850-900mg test with a bit of dbol for first 6 weeks and i got flamed to ****... gained 11kg in 10 weeks , big strenght gains and size gains.
> 
> i think alot of people who do 500mg test for a cycle , are often dissapointed with the gains they make


this may seem like a stupid question but just got myself a load of syring and needles blue and green needels but the syringes i got are 2ml you guys are all talking mg how do i convert ?


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## WRT (May 21, 2009)

coll_gt4 said:


> this may seem like a stupid question but just got myself a load of syring and needles blue and green needels but the syringes i got are 2ml you guys are all talking mg how do i convert ?


Depends on what concentration your gear is mate, should say on vial.


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## Harry1436114491 (Oct 8, 2003)

coll_gt4 said:


> this may seem like a stupid question but just got myself a load of syring and needles blue and green needels but the syringes i got are 2ml you guys are all talking mg how do i convert ?


It's based on the strength of the compound not the amount of oil.


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## coll_gt4 (Dec 2, 2009)

well got the dbol but not the test will be getting that next moth near the time all i know are they are 10ml vials of test e guess all ask nearer the time :thumb:

and sorry didnt mean to hijack post will post up nearer the time


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## Smitch (Dec 29, 2008)

I wish i had the balls to pin myself, then i'd have done a test cycle straight off instead of Anavar and then Dbol. Got some Trendflow test gel on the way though..... :thumb:


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## SD (Sep 3, 2004)

I think the point put across to first time users is that as they have 'virgin' receptors, it would be potentially damaging and a waste of money to mega dose so soon. Plus do we really want to look that irresponsible as a community? I mean how many of these first time users that are mega dosing will actually really be able to just give up the good stuff and move on? I don't believe most of them could and advice accordingly.

An attitude of caution can only project a spirit of relative responsibility in an activity that could well lead to premanent physical damage, nothing wrong with that.

The board has gone through phases, sometimes it has been very drug orientated with very little regard for health or safety of the new members, I think that there is a balance now between being a 'Nanny board' and a group of irresponsible drug users giving gtg advice at a every mega cycle posted. People who post here get a balance of opinion is what I am trying to say.

I understand what you mean, is it our place to try to talk people out of using heavy cycles when thats their choice? well yes, because if we can convince one person it isn't worth it then it was worthwhile.

I am already fcuked so bring on the good stuff :thumb: but I would rather other people learn't from my mistakes if possible, call it atonement perhaps, it s well placed advice all the same and I hope I can help someone along the way.

SD


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## Cheese (Jul 7, 2009)

coll_gt4 said:


> this may seem like a stupid question but just got myself a load of syring and needles blue and green needels but the syringes i got are 2ml you guys are all talking mg how do i convert ?


Unfortunately your not ready to take gear.



The vial will have mg/ml on it. For instance 200mg/ml take 2ml you have 400mg Simples.


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## Incredible Bulk (Sep 19, 2007)

Pscarb said:


> the one you left out is that the assumption is that if you have used any steroid you know everything and can give advice.....


Scarier still is that there are some who have used nothing and just go by what other people have said

CTRL C

CTRL V


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## coll_gt4 (Dec 2, 2009)

Cheese said:


> Unfortunately your not ready to take gear.
> 
> 
> 
> The vial will have mg/ml on it. For instance 200mg/ml take 2ml you have 400mg Simples.


Ready or not will still be doing it

and thanks


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## SK-XO (Aug 6, 2009)

WRT said:


> No mate haven't used before.


I thought you were on gear before mate, aw well good stuff on getting at the size your at without :thumbup1:


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## sizar (Nov 13, 2008)

Love this thread keep it for later off to the gym .. JW Can't rep you anymore


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## Terrawatt (May 22, 2010)

SD said:


> I think the point put across to first time users is that as they have 'virgin' receptors, it would be potentially damaging and a waste of money to mega dose so soon. Plus do we really want to look that irresponsible as a community? I mean how many of these first time users that are mega dosing will actually really be able to just give up the good stuff and move on? I don't believe most of them could and advice accordingly.
> 
> An attitude of caution can only project a spirit of relative responsibility in an activity that could well lead to premanent physical damage, nothing wrong with that.
> 
> ...


x 2 :thumb:


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## Huntingground (Jan 10, 2010)

I always take into account what people state but then do what I think is right for me anyhow.

Started my first course in Jan (250mg Test Cyp/week) and haven't stopped really since then.

I have used up to the following max amounts of gear at different times:-

1.) - 50mg DBOL/DAY

2.) - 600mg DECA/WK

3.) - 600mg TREN E/WK

4.) - 1000mg TEST/WK (different esters, long based).

5.) - 400mg FAST RIP every 3 days.

Some of these were used at the same time (always a test base obviously), some not.

I always shoot HCG (750 e7d) and take 0.5 ADEX e2d. I have Nolva and Clomid at hand.

I am 36, have 2 kids (don't want any more) and want to get stuck into training and live a new life (old life was coke and beer). I have stuck to training very hard, eating right, resting hard and living clean. Yes, I may not be a role model to how things should be done, but I have enjoyed it immensely and would do the same again. Have I been irresponsible - maybe but that is my decision. The change in my body has been immense!!

Also I have just started Dutch's GH blast protocol, shot 40iu last night, 40 tonight and will do for 5 days.

Would I do the same again, dead right I would.

The only question is: WHY DIDN'T I DO IT 10 YEARS AGO?????????


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## LiftHeavy (Oct 12, 2008)

My first cycle was 750mg test e and 400mg tren e, i ended up running this for 16weeks then crusing on 250mg test for 2-3 months then upped the dose to 1g test and 600mg tren lol was a heavy first cycle.

I love tren


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## Lois_Lane (Jul 21, 2009)

I love contrasting this board to Professionalmuscle.com that's all i will say.....it's VERY funny! Lets see if the responses are still the same in a few years...


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## Craig660 (Dec 8, 2005)

Never heard of that board - anyone care to enlighten me


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## d4ead (Nov 3, 2008)

my first cycle was 600 test 400 tren and 50mg dbol a day worked for me xx

i love sound advice.


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## LittleChris (Jan 17, 2009)

Craig660 said:


> Never heard of that board - anyone care to enlighten me


People who used quite heavily and now are reporting all sorts of health problems. Worth a read. 

http://www.professionalmuscle.com/forums/


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## Tommy10 (Feb 17, 2009)

first cycle....500 test/ 50mg d-bol

now its....750 test/ 300 equip....movin on to winny/ test next week

..and i f.uckin love it :bounce: :bounce:


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## Críostóir (Dec 12, 2009)

Pelayo said:


> first cycle....500 test/ 50mg d-bol
> 
> now its....750 test/ 300 equip....movin on to winny/ test next week
> 
> ..and i f.uckin love it :bounce: :bounce:


hav ur balls shrivelled up yet :lol:


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## Craig660 (Dec 8, 2005)

LittleChris said:


> People who used quite heavily and now are reporting all sorts of health problems. Worth a read.
> 
> http://www.professionalmuscle.com/forums/


Oh right - probs best i dont even look over there


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## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

Bunch of pussys over there TBH

Man the fck up


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## pariah (May 8, 2008)

Weird hows the dosages have all upped since I started taking gear about 10 years ago. I still take modest amounts because I don't believe I need huge amounts to get big. What I take, most would scoff at but I always remember something Dave Fox told me. Using too much gear is like pouring too much liquid into a glass. The overspill is the side effects.

Using that rough analogy, I barely get any sides at all and happily grow on modest amounts of gear. It works for me but probably would be frowned upon by many others.

Dave Fox


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## peter boultby (Jun 5, 2010)

geeby112 said:


> Do agree with you
> 
> Alot assume if its the 1st course dont do tren:confused1: i mean even after 5 courses im sure the tren sides will still be the same.


do u think dianabol is a good thing 4 a starter im 44 and just want a bit more size i go to the gym pump up and look good but 1 hour later im back down again


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## peter boultby (Jun 5, 2010)

do u think dianabol is a good starter 4 a 44 year old man


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## flynnie11 (Jan 24, 2009)

pariah, what would u say is a modest amount of gear , under 1g? under 1.5g?


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## peter boultby (Jun 5, 2010)

geeby112 said:


> Do agree with you
> 
> Alot assume if its the 1st course dont do tren:confused1: i mean even after 5 courses im sure the tren sides will still be the same.


do u think dianabol is a good thing 4 a starter im 44 and just want a bit more size i go to the gym pump up and look good but 1 hour later im back down again


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## WRT (May 21, 2009)

peter boultby said:


> do u think dianabol is a good thing 4 a starter im 44 and just want a bit more size i go to the gym pump up and look good but 1 hour later im back down again


Haven't you just asked that twice? Start a new thread.


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## Mikazagreat (Apr 10, 2009)

I didn't bother the 500mg advise (i am not gion to quite anytime soon but fed up of 5 years natty)

I am in the middle of my 3d cycle 14 weeks, 500mg test, 500mg tren, 800 EQ, 700mg Masteron lol.


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

the problem i see whith using multiple steroids and high doses on your first few cycles is where you going to go when you need to increase the dose? and you will


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

Mikazagreat said:


> I didn't bother the 500mg advise (i am not gion to quite anytime soon but fed up of 5 years natty)
> 
> I am in the middle of my 3d cycle 14 weeks, 500mg test, 500mg tren, 800 EQ, 700mg Masteron lol.


WOW you must be huge that is a gram more than i use when i bulk


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## pariah (May 8, 2008)

flynnie11 said:


> pariah, what would u say is a modest amount of gear , under 1g? under 1.5g?


I'm not in a position to give advice m8. You'd be better off asking some of the advanced users who compete. Personally, I'm on 400mg of test, 150 tren and if I had funds id do 50/100mg of winny along side.

I usually stay around these numbers on every cycle using different compounds. I'm not into the huge look by any means, I like a bit of muscle with some condition and that works well for me.


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## ShaunMc (Apr 28, 2008)

as paul said if u start on a high dose where do u go from there ???? its simple biochemistry

if u have never touched alcohol before u dont need to get out and down a bottle of vodka ..u would prob get drunk on a few shots

why start on a huge dose of gear when a smalll amount would be sufficient to get a response ........ after many years of steroid use the amount you need may go up due to

1. drug tolerance

2. bigger muscle size

too many guys on here equate drug amount to gains ... look up dose response relationships ..


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## pea head (May 28, 2008)

This is where my patience wears thin,some of the amounts posted up makes me laugh,no disrespect to anybody but when i see what sh1t goes in then see a pic in the avvy....oh dear and steak dinner comes to mind.

Slin this,GH that....really ???????


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## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

Pscarb said:


> the problem i see whith using multiple steroids and high doses on your first few cycles is where you going to go when you need to increase the dose? and you will





ShaunMc said:


> as paul said if u start on a high dose where do u go from there ???? its simple biochemistry
> 
> if u have never touched alcohol before u dont need to get out and down a bottle of vodka ..u would prob get drunk on a few shots
> 
> ...


See from I can gather here is more assumtions

It comes across from your posts that all high dose users to start, are Retards?? and in fact are nopt capable of logical or intelligent thought????

Just because your not an experienced user, does not mean you cant think logically about your goals in hand and will go on to abuse PEDs at ever increasing amounts...

I will give you a prime example form this board..

DMCC had decided to Powerlifting was the way to go as opposed BBding...

I was giving him some help in this area

NOW, he had a strong DL naturally *240kg* :thumbup1: But we had a goal and a limited time to achieve it..

This was over a year ago..

So he had never ran any aas before, Now we discussed it at length and decided on a training and aas program that would achive his goals in shortest time poss..

Standard "illogical" reasoning on the board states "250-500mg test per week is ample to start"

BULLSH!T, sure he would have made gains, but not those required to reach goals...

So his course consisted of a standard PL course of peds..including a small amount of tren 1st time *shock fckin horror*

He didnt post at the time because of flaming from no nothings as is the case that always occurs from the uneducated in matter..

During his 8 week hard super hard training program, the peds enabled him to keep up intensity, recover and make the progression required for his goals

End of 8 week blast, Big D had Deadlifted *305kg*

Do you think 500mg test a week would have achieved this??/ Would it fck

Another blast later and he competed pulling *315kg in comp:thumb:*

That was a year ago, now has been invited to compete in Europe, and guess what?? after intelligently discussing it, was thought that his basic power is now there, so to compete he is using a lot less than previous as he does not need as much to progress as hard work has beeen done.

So you see, no its not always the case increased doses are required

And those that do use higher than the norm, Not all are Retards (altho a lot are)


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## pea head (May 28, 2008)

Well im ok then Joe,my doses are well lower than most on here but i make up for it with actually training


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## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

pea head said:


> Well im ok then Joe,my doses are well lower than most on here but i make up for it with actually training


Thought you were injured??

You been tellin me porkies whole time:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## pariah (May 8, 2008)

I think what Pscard and Shaun is saying, if a user takes 1g for example on their 1st cycles, this is a the psychological springboard where users feel the need to keep increasing it from the initial 1g of test when in fact they probably could start lower and work up and do as well, which is contrary I assume to your points.

I fail to see the retard association in their posts and most AAS users who start out don't know what the hell they're doing any ways, it has nothing to do with logical or intelligent thought but a general lack of understanding.


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## Tommy10 (Feb 17, 2009)

Callofthewild said:


> hav ur balls shrivelled up yet :lol:


yae hive tae decide...baws or brawn.... :lol: :lol:...ye canny huv bathe like


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## Críostóir (Dec 12, 2009)

I like my pair of kiwis


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## Tommy10 (Feb 17, 2009)

Callofthewild said:


> I like my pair of kiwis


tks for that visual description... :whistling: :lol: :lol:


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

Joe so you are saying throw caution to the wind use as much as you want you will be fine ??

Many will and do do that then at the end of their cycle/pct they are not much bigger muscle wise that when they began to be fair I really don't care I advise to save people time and money because like it or not nailing your diet, training and rest will enable you to grow better on less but then saying that to your mates or on a forum does not look as big as "yea just smashed in 3g this week" does it


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## dan2004 (May 8, 2007)

IMO I think il sit on the fence for this debate. However my first course consisted of dbol only. My second course consisted of Test En 300mg p/w and my 3rd Course consisted of Test dec and Nandralone = 500mg combined. With this i discovered how my body reacted to the above compounds. The dbol gave me water , the Enanathate gave me some good gains and the Deca gave me gyno to hell. So using different types of compounds gradually rather than instantly can work in the favour of a new user when it comes to finding what works and what simply does not. Finally like greedy fuk wit im now using Test 400 @ 2ml per week with Tbol and im getting my best gains ever


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## Terrawatt (May 22, 2010)

jw007 said:


> See from I can gather here is more assumtions
> 
> It comes across from your posts that all high dose users to start, are Retards?? and in fact are nopt capable of logical or intelligent thought????
> 
> ...


I think you are talking about some exceptional circumstances there Joe, I would probably agree under those conditions.

But when we are talking about kids on their first cycle, banging over 1g of combined gear into themselves on the basis that someone used the galacticaly stupid abbreviation .... "gtg" ....... with the attitude of 'live & let live' as a way of easing their conscience, that's a different matter.

The public give us a rough time as it is when taking this sh*t. My brother laughed at me the other day when I explained to him that I use. He said, "You eat really healthy, train at the gym, don't drink, don't smoke and yet you inject steroids into you" He said I was a fcuking idiot. After educating him on the responsibilities of moderate use, he began to see it a little my way.

What you are advocating is complete recklessness. It just plays into the hands of everyone out there that know nothing at all about aas. All you are doing is to add fuel the fire. I'm 37 years old with 4 children, and believe me, I have lived a little. You don't need to be an expert about steroids to know that you shouldn't mix this sh*t the first time you use it.

What do you say to the guy that;

- just had a stroke because the D-Bol pushed his already high bp up through the stratosphere ?

- just grabbed hold of his missus and beat 7 belles of sh*t out of her because she forgot to buy him some brown rice ?

- tore a peck and bicep, because he believed he could bench 500kg ?

The list is endless. It's just train-wreck after train-wreck I'm afraid.

Just because you did it, and look 'hench as fcuk' with no apparent sides, doesn't mean everyone else will end up the same. Everyone else's genetics are different from your's you know.

I am envious as fcuk though


----------



## thevoice (May 10, 2007)

I was quite sirprised to hear what the guys down my gym are using and in what dosage - the stuff you see on most forums is just repeated advice that nobody seems to follow (or at least very few in the real world).

Things I have come across down the gym are -

PCT overated

cycles consist of grams

stuff thrown in here and there and dosages changed alomost weekly dpending what therer source brings in.

Most shocking was one lad who is using 5grams of aas - at first i thought he meant 500mg but no actually 5grams!


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## WRT (May 21, 2009)

jw007 said:


> End of 8 week blast, Big D had Deadlifted *305kg*
> 
> Do you think 500mg test a week would have achieved this??/ Would it fck
> 
> Another blast later and he competed pulling *315kg in comp:thumb:*


Fvcking hell - 240kg dead to 305kg in 8 weeks is awesome:thumbup1:

Like you say every person has their goals and it's doubtful he'd have reached that goal on a low dose test course.


----------



## pariah (May 8, 2008)

But surely diet is the biggest impact on strength and gains not X amount of compounds. Could he have reached said goals on 3g of test with a ****e diet or less test and a stunningly perfect diet?

Too much talk of compounds and not enough of dietary input maybe?


----------



## Andy Dee (Jun 1, 2008)

jw007 said:


> If you have the money and prepared to take risk, why is it more acceptable for a competitive BBder to use large amounts of aas, as opposed to a bicep boy who just wants to nail chicks??
> 
> Both goals are as important to the individual as each other, in fact IMO getting nailed has more benefitial real world applications than plastic trophys


Id have to agree with that, why should gunning to nail more chicks give someone anyless motivation and determination to get the body they want compared to someone who wants a trophy in there hand.



jw007 said:


> *And for the record its my opinion if we were to look at side effects, the long term linear progresive user would IMO have more chance of getting medical problems than the few time mega dose bicep boy user* who wil give up training in a few years


haven't you been on for about 15 years though mate? :lol:

I agree with what your saying though, people on here seem to treat gear like its a fckin exam or a theory test, nope you didnt pass that question im affraid your not ready for steroids yet 

And i dont see anything wrong with someone wanting to take a little gear with very little training experience to look a bit better for there hols or to increase there chances of nailing more birds on a night out.

Just because some people waited 10 centuries to use gear, that doesnt give the newbie any less of a right to use them than you.

People want a quick fix, its 2010 not 1950, dont see anything wrong with that in my book


----------



## Dig (Aug 28, 2007)

Interesting thread can see the points from both sides tbh.

Personally i ran tren on my first cycle, some people will not think this is justifiable and unnecessary however i had goals that i wanted to achieve as a junior in PL. I achieved the goals i set out to achieve so dont regret doing things this way.

Had i started with a test only cycle etc i dont think i would have made the gains i have, health is good, i suppose the only sides i have had is more injuries than i probably would have had due to pushing body harder.


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## Archaic (Mar 8, 2010)

Yep, on allot of boards you will get shot down for suggested anything but 500mg Test for first cycle, but...

As long as the individual has put in the time in to researching how best to recover HPTA, keep gains post cycle, and how to deal with any neg sides like gyno etc - I don't see an issue stacking tren/test/mast etc on first cycle tbh.

If they do not put the research in first, it is a bit of a wasted effort post cycle IMO. Plus, not much fun walking around with gyno you could have prevented, quickly/effectively dealt with.

And as for Tren Ace always being 'advised' to be run first time round, it's bollox IMO. Yes - it will be out of your system faster than Enanthate, but it will also be in allot faster! Hence, if you are an individual who does not get on with Tren, rapidly spiking serum levels with a very short ester like Ace will not show the exact same said effects as running a longer, slower acting ester like Enan.


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

thevoice said:


> I was quite sirprised to hear what the guys down my gym are using and in what dosage - the stuff you see on most forums is just repeated advice that nobody seems to follow (or at least very few in the real world).
> 
> Things I have come across down the gym are -
> 
> ...


and how many of these guys actually look like they take 5g of gear a week??



Archaic said:


> Yep, on allot of boards you will get shot down for suggested anything but 500mg Test for first cycle, but...
> 
> *As long as the individual has put in the time in to researching how best to recover HPTA, keep gains post cycle, and how to deal with any neg sides like gyno etc - I don't see an issue stacking tren/test/mast etc on first cycle tbh.*
> 
> ...


but that is the thing most don't research this......

when i started i did not wait i used more than 500g per week and had no clue about nutrition or PCT and i lost all my gains and continued to yo yo with gains on cycle with losing them off cycle for years......the advice i and many other more experianced guys give on these forums is not to preach that you are not advanced enough to use more it is to save you the time and money guys like me wasted learning the hard way......


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## cult (Nov 7, 2009)

TBH i cant fcuking wait till start juicing .Ive put it off for 2 years now, made some good gains in that peirod and learnt how to eat in that time .

Ill be doing a 12 week test-e in sept/oct 2 months after i get some lipo on my chest .

Im even considering getting the lipo and might just start juicing next week but ive been waiting on this op for 2 year now and its free so my heads in a bit of a spin now ffs and reading this thread hasnt helped one bit, lol, as i might just take the plundge and pin tonight .


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## sizar (Nov 13, 2008)

Pscarb said:


> and how many of these guys actually look like they take 5g of gear a week??
> 
> So true
> 
> ...


i like your honesty there ..^^^

why you use more than you need.


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## Ash1981 (Jun 16, 2009)

cultivator said:


> TBH i cant fcuking wait till start juicing .Ive put it off for 2 years now, made some good gains in that peirod and learnt how to eat in that time .
> 
> Ill be doing a 12 week test-e in sept/oct 2 months after i get some lipo on my chest .
> 
> Im even considering getting the lipo and might just start juicing next week but ive been waiting on this op for 2 year now and its free so my heads in a bit of a spin now ffs and reading this thread hasnt helped one bit, lol, as i might just take the plundge and pin tonight .


how is the operation free? nhs?


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## thevoice (May 10, 2007)

none of them look like they take 5g a week if thats what the "massive guys" take (i dont know so cant compare) but they are what i would class as big. wired thing is they where skinny just a few years back so they have exploded on aas.

just to clafiy - they look big but not lean - where as guys who i think are massive look massive and v cut.


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## ekko (Dec 3, 2008)

coll_gt4 said:


> Ready or not will still be doing it
> 
> and thanks


 honesty @ its best right there lol


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

sizar said:


> i like your honesty there ..^^^
> 
> why you use more than you need.


if this was asked to me i did because like most on here i had no fukcing clue


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## cult (Nov 7, 2009)

Got form said:


> how is the operation free? nhs?


something simular its on the HSE thats what its called here in ireland


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## Terrawatt (May 22, 2010)

Pscarb said:


> if this was asked to me i did because like most on here i had no fukcing clue


 :rockon:


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## Mikazagreat (Apr 10, 2009)

Mikazagreat said:


> I didn't bother the 500mg advise (i am not gion to quite anytime soon but fed up of 5 years natty)
> 
> I am in the middle of my 3d cycle 14 weeks, 500mg test, 500mg tren, 800 EQ, 700mg Masteron lol.


I will ignore the sarcasm :lol:

not huge i am 5.7 currently 210pounds 14% bf, but clearly my body doesn't respond on small amount of gear first cycle was 500mg upped to 750mg of test last few weeks, diet and training was all good and results were lousy my genetics sucks.


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

ignore the sarcasm all you want mate but 2.5g per week on your 3rd cycle is still to much for a guy your size in my opinion


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## ShaunMc (Apr 28, 2008)

Pscarb said:


> ignore the sarcasm all you want mate but 2.5g per week on your 3rd cycle is still to much for a guy your size in my opinion


totally agree on this


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## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

Pscarb said:


> *Joe so you are saying throw caution to the wind use as much as you want you will be fine ??*
> 
> Many will and do do that then at the end of their cycle/pct they are not much bigger muscle wise that when they began to be fair I really don't care I advise to save people time and money because like it or not nailing your diet, training and rest will enable you to grow better on less but then saying that to your mates or on a forum does not look as big as "yea just smashed in 3g this week" does it


No???

Where did I say that??

I dont advocate 3g per week either...

Also assumptions keep being bandied about with regards "youngsters" using mega amounts blah blah

where did I say this either?? (not directly aimed at you)

A lot of 1st time users are late to mid 30s with a decent head on shoulders, a family already so the usual "500mg test per week" scare tactics wont apply

Also, its assumed that diet and training are not nailed, who says that???

Someone who starts on 500mg test per week can also not have diet and training nailed

BUT someone banging in sh1t loads of gear without anything nailed will gain more than Mr 500mg wk in same boat fact.....

Im not advocating mega doses here

What I am saying is

500mg per week everything equal wont do jack sh1t in comparison to my recommended 1st cycle to a switched on trainer

of

600mg test per week

300mg tren

30-50mg dbol a day

Pretty much what WRT is thinking about

Now that course WILL yeild awesoem results used by right person and far and away exceed results form 500mg per brigade...

Which brings me to another point (one I will be starting a thread about shortly







)

Diet and training nailed???

I hear thios bandied about all time

Well for the record what you consider "nailed" is not what I consider "nailed"

You think your FST training is "nailed" for you???

Well I have treied that, amd apart from a pump it does not do sh1t for me, not saying you dont benefit from it, But I dont

Diet, the same

I seem to thrive on a diet with high sugar content, lucozade, fizzy drinks and pizza etc etc

currently 18st lean with abs and intercostals (as weighed saturday:thumb

My diet consists of nothing like the 26 bland chicken and rice meals per day.

I lose strength and size when doing that as I cant consume enough clean calories to function

In fact I do pretty well with Mc D quarter pounders and chicken sarnies..

So your defination of nailed for you is not nailed the same for every one

If your going to compete, then sure a more rigid approach is required, But to make gains, everything does not have to be set in stone and followed to letter

I bet we all know some big cut dude in gym who eats badly "figuratively" speaking compared to the norm??

Ever thought he is actually eating optimally for what his body requires???

Just a thought


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## Smitch (Dec 29, 2008)

Do you really have that bad a diet? :confused1:


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## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

Smitch said:


> Do you really have that bad a diet? :confused1:


I get prob 300+g quality protein in per day in form of chicken, steak, eggs or syntha 6 etc etc

But as for the rest of my intake, as long as my protein is high im not that fussed, if I start get fat, lower carbs

Dont get me wrong, I dont spend al day munching on crisps and chocolate etc etc

But if I cheesy garlic bread and a beer with my dinner I will have it..

If I want pizza at luch time I wil have it, perhaps I would increase protein by swallowing a few eggs before or after, but by no means am I anal or OCD in anyway

If I want something I will eat it, but I dont spend my day eating like a fat person lol

Moderation and common sense mate


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## sizar (Nov 13, 2008)

JW 007 .. Mr Hulk

I love your threads as always you are very honest and out with it. which is great

again regarding nailing training what works for me will not work for someone else .. so everyone is different in the way they train .. but in my view intensity is a must.

you are very lean seen your picture .. if you weren't using AAS and peps having diet like will make you fat you will not be 18 stone lean 

you saying that will make some people think is ok to eat junk and sugary food and be big like you lol but the fact is .. it won't happen ..

As i said i love the honesty in your thread keep it up


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## LittleChris (Jan 17, 2009)

sizar said:


> JW 007 .. Mr Hulk
> 
> I love your threads as always you are very honest and out with it. which is great
> 
> ...


Have a cloth to wipe the brown stains off your nose buddy :laugh:


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## Smitch (Dec 29, 2008)

jw007 said:


> I get prob 300+g quality protein in per day in form of chicken, steak, eggs or syntha 6 etc etc
> 
> But as for the rest of my intake, as long as my protein is high im not that fussed, if I start get fat, lower carbs
> 
> ...


I just imagined you sitting at home, surrounded by empty Dominos boxes and Stella cans everywhere watching TV with an intravenous drip of test munching on a bag of Dbols!!! :lol:


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## sizar (Nov 13, 2008)

LittleChris said:


> Have a cloth to wipe the brown stains off your nose buddy :laugh:


 :confused1: no need for that. i didn't mean no disrespect by it .. i just meant drugs makes hell a difference to gains ( muscle and fat ) which is down to diet .. another thing is someone's genetic some people can't put any fat on or very little no matter what they eat.


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## sizar (Nov 13, 2008)

Smitch said:


> I just imagined you sitting at home, surrounded by empty Dominos boxes and Stella cans everywhere watching TV with an intravenous drip of test munching on a bag of Dbols!!! :lol:


see my point lol :laugh:


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## doylejlw (Feb 14, 2010)

at pub last nite some fella come up to me say's do you want some steroids, you dont even have to train and you'll got massive on them :lol:


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## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

sizar said:


> JW 007 .. Mr Hulk
> 
> I love your threads as always you are very honest and out with it. which is great
> 
> ...


Agreed, Gh and AAS make a huge difference

But we are talking about PED users here and not Nattys Right???

Yeah, Natty Bodybuilder, sort of contradiction in terms :lol: :lol:

I would suggest nothing but "anal-ity" and "OCD" to achieve any sort of gainage after the 1st few years of training

Yeah, your correct, A lot of people would be dead if did same as what I have done

Loads would be fat as fck, But that just shows the differences in people and how one way does not suit all.

As for intensity, again person dependant

I know a certain high ranking Bbder who IMO trains like a gay:lol: :lol: But looks awesome, Then others IMO far harder working and are no where near his level

Horses for courses, Same as AAS, some peope thrive on nap 50s (certain 210kg bencher onthsi forum loves them) while others cant tolerate

Thanks for kind words tho mate


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## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

Smitch said:


> I just imagined you sitting at home, surrounded by empty Dominos boxes and Stella cans everywhere watching TV with an intravenous drip of test munching on a bag of Dbols!!! :lol:


some days can be like that:lol: :lol:

I can have a weekend of utter sh1t lifestyle

But 5 days later I have pulled it all back, ready for next weeked

Thus most my progress pics are taken towards end of week LMFAO


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## Smitch (Dec 29, 2008)

doylejlw said:


> at pub last nite some fella come up to me say's do you want some steroids, you dont even have to train and you'll got massive on them :lol:


He wants to research his target demographic a bit more. I'm no expert but i'm sure he'd have more luck flogging dem dere roids in a gym. :lol:


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## Guest (Jun 7, 2010)

my natty opinion for what its worth.

I was always under the impression that using one compound to begin with and adding one compound at a time as required was the best way to go as then you will understand what effect that compound has on your body, be it good or bad without having to guess at what compound is causing any sides you may be getting.


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## sizar (Nov 13, 2008)

jw007 said:


> Agreed, Gh and AAS make a huge difference
> 
> But we are talking about PED users here and not Nattys Right???
> 
> ...


Glad you didn't take my post as an insult as it wasn't meant to be. i was just trying to point out how drugs can make huge different thats all.


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## doylejlw (Feb 14, 2010)

Smitch said:


> He wants to research his target demographic a bit more. I'm no expert but i'm sure he'd have more luck flogging dem dere roids in a gym. :lol:


 to be honest was bit lost for words didnt know what to say really, all was thinking in my head is what a ****! :laugh:


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## gumballdom (Dec 14, 2008)

mikex101 said:


> my natty opinion for what its worth.
> 
> I was always under the impression that using one compound to begin with and adding one compound at a time as required was the best way to go as then you will understand what effect that compound has on your body, be it good or bad without having to guess at what compound is causing any sides you may be getting.


that was always my take on it. at the mo i dont have any set goals, so when i start i think id prefer to see how i react to each compound first, even though gains may be slightly slower this way.

but then agree with jw if you have set goal insight, are aware of the risks and sides etc, then may aswell throw everything you can at it (within reason)


----------



## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

mikex101 said:


> my natty opinion for what its worth.
> 
> I was always under the impression that using one compound to begin with and adding one compound at a time as required was the best way to go as then you will understand what effect that compound has on your body, be it good or bad without having to guess at what compound is causing any sides you may be getting.


yes, That is as I 1st stated if you have a long term progressive goal

getting "hench as fck for summer" does not really require this scientific type approach:lol: :lol:


----------



## Cra16 (Jan 23, 2010)

jw007 said:


> No???
> 
> Where did I say that??
> 
> ...


Only people with ecto metabolisms understand this kind of diet, I can't get enough calories in if I eat clean, the fibre starts to rip through me. Most people bulking diet is my cut. lucozade, 200 oats with 50g palitonose, 1 ltre of lactose free milk......... makes a quick breakfast for me at 4am each day.


----------



## Mikazagreat (Apr 10, 2009)

Pscarb said:


> ignore the sarcasm all you want mate but 2.5g per week on your 3rd cycle is still to much for a guy your size in my opinion


I wanned to catch up a little bit i started gear too late age 28 

So far i am doin blood work usually, and can handle the sides so far.

Also something else, IMO u can't count it like that 1g,2g,3g of gear.

I wonder who invented that calculation method !!

Because 100mg Proviron a day is not like doin 100mg Tren Ace a day.


----------



## sizar (Nov 13, 2008)

Mikazagreat said:


> I wanned to catch up a little bit i started gear too late age 28
> 
> So far i am doin blood work usually, and can handle the sides so far.
> 
> ...


28 is not late.. why would you think is late ? just curious here..

agree with you 100mg proviron is not same as 100mg tren. as every drug acts differently for example proviron can be used on PCT but tren can't.


----------



## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

jw007 said:


> No???
> 
> *Where did I say that??*
> 
> ...


no mate you didnt that was the question.....my issue with these type of threads is not you starting it Joe it is those that will look at it and go "yea i can use 2-3g per week does not matter about diet or training really" sort of a gtg thread as we all know some post a thread about their cycle when the cycle is stupid but all they want is one person to say gtg and they feel much better and will do it.....



Mikazagreat said:


> I wanned to catch up a little bit i started gear too late age 28
> 
> So far i am doin blood work usually, and can handle the sides so far.
> 
> ...


yea but your not using 100mg of proviron a day....

mate take what you want kid yourself that the calcalation method does not count the fact is you are using 2.5g per week on your 3rd cycle for me if you feel this is what is needed for you to grow then you are doing something very wrong or you have only used fake gear......it is your body so your choice but i hate to think what you will be using on your 5th or 10th cycle if this is what your using on your 3rd when your diet and training is bang on as you say


----------



## MR RIGSBY (Jun 12, 2007)

Mikazagreat said:


> I wanned to catch up a little bit i started gear too late age 28
> 
> So far i am doin blood work usually, and can handle the sides so far.
> 
> ...


Kind of see your reasoning about the 100mg prov and 100mg Tren mate but nobody 'invented' that calculation method.

500mg+500mg+800mg+700mg = 2500mg or 2.5g


----------



## Mikazagreat (Apr 10, 2009)

Pscarb said:


> yea but your not using 100mg of proviron a day....
> 
> mate take what you want kid yourself that the calcalation method does not count the fact is you are using 2.5g per week on your 3rd cycle for me if you feel this is what is needed for you to grow then you are doing something very wrong or you have only used fake gear......it is your body so your choice but i hate to think what you will be using on your 5th or 10th cycle if this is what your using on your 3rd when your diet and training is bang on as you say


No i don't think this is what i need to grow, and i didn't use fake gear i have done a massive transformation in 9 months, i know i could grow with less gear (not much less) but i wanned to take my chances with higher doses and try different compounds for this period of time and see how far i can go, I was on since jan the plan was 2 blasts and a cruise in the middle then come off the rest of the year.


----------



## sizar (Nov 13, 2008)

Mikazagreat said:


> No i don't think this is what i need to grow, and i didn't use fake gear i have done a massive transformation in 9 months, i know i could grow with less gear (not much less) but i wanned to take my chances with higher doses and try different compounds for this period of time and see how far i can go, *I was on since jan the plan was 2 blasts and a cruise in the middle then come off the rest of the year*.


and are you off yet lol ?


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## Mikazagreat (Apr 10, 2009)

sizar said:


> and are you off yet lol ?


8 weeks to go.


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## sizar (Nov 13, 2008)

Mikazagreat said:


> 8 weeks to go.


have you had blood done in that time .. I am just curious .. not trying to flame you or anything .. just wondering how everything has effected you regarding lipid prof and so on .. thats all


----------



## Mikazagreat (Apr 10, 2009)

sizar said:


> have you had blood done in that time .. I am just curious .. not trying to flame you or anything .. just wondering how everything has effected you regarding lipid prof and so on .. thats all


I do blood work every 6-8 weeks or couple of weeks after i add new compounds, i am gettin results from latest blood work tomorrow, last one was during cruise was all fine except lipid ratio was a bit messed up, HDL was low.


----------



## sizar (Nov 13, 2008)

Mikazagreat said:


> I do blood work every 6-8 weeks or couple of weeks after i add new compounds, i am gettin results from latest blood work tomorrow, last one was during cruise was all fine except lipid ratio was a bit messed up, HDL was low.


atleast you get bloods done.


----------



## kingy_88 (Apr 13, 2009)

jw007 said:


> I bet we all know some big cut dude in gym who eats badly "figuratively" speaking compared to the norm??
> 
> Ever thought he is actually eating optimally for what his body requires???
> 
> Just a thought


yeah my father in law 16st with abs at about 5' 6, he goes to KFC after EVERY training session lol


----------



## doylejlw (Feb 14, 2010)

kingy_88 said:


> yeah my father in law 16st with abs at about 5' 6, he goes to KFC after EVERY training session lol


 lucky git! what i would do to eat kfc everyday


----------



## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

Mikazagreat said:


> No i don't think this is what i need to grow, and i didn't use fake gear i have done a massive transformation in 9 months, i know i could grow with less gear (not much less) but i wanned to take my chances with higher doses and try different compounds for this period of time and see how far i can go, I was on since jan the plan was 2 blasts and a cruise in the middle then come off the rest of the year.


i would like to see this massive transformation......

so you have been on for how long on these doses?? so your 3rd cycle was a Blast and Cruise....??

like i said your body your choice....


----------



## jacksparra (Feb 4, 2010)

jw007 said:


> No???
> 
> Where did I say that??
> 
> ...


Got to agree there JW,Every body reacts in a different way.It seems like theres to many generic answeres to the same Qs.


----------



## Mikazagreat (Apr 10, 2009)

Pscarb said:


> i would like to see this massive transformation......
> 
> so you have been on for how long on these doses?? so your 3rd cycle was a Blast and Cruise....??
> 
> like i said your body your choice....


1 cycle then pct.

Blas/cruise/blast (still running in week 6 with he high doses)

I'm outside on mobile if u would like to see difference untill now I'll post images in this thread.


----------



## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

Mikazagreat said:


> 1 cycle then pct.
> 
> Blas/cruise/blast (still running in week 6 with he high doses)
> 
> I'm outside on mobile if u would like to see difference untill now I'll post images in this thread.


so this is your 2nd cycle?

i would imagine the gains to be impressive please post the pictures with the amount of gear you are using i would not expect anything else......

can i ask though if your first cycle was 500mg and you was less than impressed with the gains why x the amount by 5 to 2.5g why not double them or even triple the amount? what made you come to this figure?


----------



## arnienoonoo (Jun 2, 2010)

here is an assumption for ya lol:lol:


----------



## Mikazagreat (Apr 10, 2009)

Pscarb said:


> so this is your 2nd cycle?
> 
> i would imagine the gains to be impressive please post the pictures with the amount of gear you are using i would not expect anything else......
> 
> can i ask though if your first cycle was 500mg and you was less than impressed with the gains why x the amount by 5 to 2.5g why not double them or even triple the amount? what made you come to this figure?


I increased dose end of cycle and added some winny so last 6 weeks I was using like 1 gram already, the first blast used around 1.6 g a week, then I cruised and now using the mentioned doses in first post.

Will make pics when I get home and post them.


----------



## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

Going back to the op, I think that probably around 99% of advice given to first time AAS users on forums is ignored by them anyway... most people post in a way which they want to look like is asking a question, but they are actually looking for confirmation after already making their minds up.

The only reason I'd say to someone get diet and training sorted before AAS is because getting diet and training sorted will optimise your rate of growth in any circumstance, including use of steroids... it seems slightly illogical to spend a fair bit of cash on AAS, yet at the same time choose not to do things to make the best of them.

If wanting to look 'hench in a hurry', best to try and do everything optimally IMO.


----------



## PHHead (Aug 20, 2008)

Dtlv74 said:


> Going back to the op, I think that probably around 99% of advice given to first time AAS users on forums is ignored by them anyway... *most people post in a way which they want to look like is asking a question, but they are actually looking for confirmation after already making their minds up.*
> 
> The only reason I'd say to someone get diet and training sorted before AAS is because getting diet and training sorted will optimise your rate of growth in any circumstance, including use of steroids... it seems slightly illogical to spend a fair bit of cash on AAS, yet at the same time choose not to do things to make the best of them.
> 
> If wanting to look 'hench in a hurry', best to try and do everything optimally IMO.


This is so true mate, TBH I really shy away from offering any advice to anyone anymore because of this!


----------



## Mikazagreat (Apr 10, 2009)

Pscarb said:


> so this is your 2nd cycle?
> 
> i would imagine the gains to be impressive please *post the pictures* with the *amount of gear you are using* i would not expect anything else......
> 
> can i ask though if your first cycle was 500mg and you was less than impressed with the gains why x the amount by 5 to 2.5g why not double them or even triple the amount? what made you come to this figure?


All what i managed to get for now i am lookin for a front double before but can't find it.

I will post my whole progress pictures end of this blast when i finish dieting.

About amount of gear i think u know.


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## Ash1981 (Jun 16, 2009)

what are time differences between the before and nows dude

excellent work by the way:thumbup1:


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

i was not asking about the amount of gear i said with the amount of gear you have and are using i would expect impressive results


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## Mikazagreat (Apr 10, 2009)

Pscarb said:


> i was not asking about the amount of gear i said with the amount of gear you have and are using i would expect impressive results


I wonder how u found the progress ?


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## xeonedbody (Aug 28, 2009)

Mikazagreat said:


> I wonder how u found the progress ?


Just to drop in my personal opinion...great progress mate no doubt!


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## aeon (Jul 21, 2009)

Yes mate good progress, plent guys bangin more than that lets not kid ourselfs


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## Mikazagreat (Apr 10, 2009)

Got form said:


> what are time differences between the before and nows dude
> 
> excellent work by the way:thumbup1:


I think little under 9months.


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## sizar (Nov 13, 2008)

Mikazagreat said:


> All what i managed to get for now i am lookin for a front double before but can't find it.
> 
> I will post my whole progress pictures end of this blast when i finish dieting.
> 
> About amount of gear i think u know.


 :thumb:

I think you done very well .. keep it up mate


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## Ash1981 (Jun 16, 2009)

Mikazagreat said:


> I think little under 9months.


thats good mate

how long did you train natural before taking the plunge?


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## Mikazagreat (Apr 10, 2009)

Got form said:


> thats good mate
> 
> how long did you train natural before taking the plunge?


5 years mate.


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## ojaysmoke (Mar 27, 2010)

jw007 said:


> No???
> 
> Where did I say that??
> 
> ...


mate currently my cycle is

test 500mg/wk 1-12

dbol 30mg/ED 1-4

i want to add tren to it aswell, should i run it for the same length as the test.

cheers


----------



## warren (Jun 16, 2008)

Pscarb said:


> ignore the sarcasm all you want mate but 2.5g per week on your 3rd cycle is still to much *for a guy your size* in my opinion


just wondering your opinion on this matter and please dont take this as being funny as it really a geniune question and i may be tinkingabout this wrong, but you mention for a guy his size, would you cosider it too much if a guy is natty 6'5 an 250lbs and decides to use this ammount as a first cycle? just asking as technically the guy woul hol alot moe mass than some veryy good top amatures all be it spread over his larger frame?

just wondering and some shorter guys will be in great condition and hold great mass for tere height but someone taller will technically hold more lbm .

hope that makes sence lol


----------



## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

you are assuming just because your taller you are holding more lean tissue why? gear should be dosed in my opinion to lean tissue size not just weight my opinion is that using 2.5g per week for a guy who is on his 2nd cycle is to much....


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## Testoholic (Jun 13, 2009)

Pscarb said:


> you are assuming just because your taller you are holding more lean tissue why? gear should be dosed in my opinion to lean tissue size not just weight my opinion is that using 2.5g per week for a guy who is on his 2nd cycle is to much....


totally agree, been using gear for a number of years now, can see how much lean tissue i hold in pics in my thread, and i have NEVER been anywhere near 2.5g's. biggest cycle to date is 1200mg test, 400mg npp a week. i think there is some insane gear usage on this board in relation to development, but its a personal choice and its never gonna change no matter whats said..


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

Testaholic said:


> totally agree, been using gear for a number of years now, can see how much lean tissue i hold in pics in my thread, and i have NEVER been anywhere near 2.5g's. biggest cycle to date is 1200mg test, 400mg npp a week. i think there is some insane gear usage on this board in relation to development, but its a personal choice and* its never gonna change no matter whats said*..


totally agree mate


----------



## warren (Jun 16, 2008)

Pscarb said:


> you are assuming just because your taller you are holding more lean tissue why? gear should be dosed in my opinion to lean tissue size not just weight my opinion is that using 2.5g per week for a guy who is on his 2nd cycle is to much....


i should have made it more clear ,these are just for example

i wont try do the maths lol but if a guy is 5' and 14st at 10%bf he will look impressive size wise and people could look and justify gear use by saying oh yeah he has the size.

but then a guy who was 15st at 10% (allowing for larger bone size etc ) but was 6'5 would look skinny,

now both would have the same lbm ( like i said i havent done the maths etc ) but one would look massive wone would look skinny , would it be more justified the shorter one using more gear as he looks bigger ebven though the taller guy has the same lbs just looks skinny due to height.

i do totally agree with people will use what they want to or feel need to use, and its easier for you and other more experienced guys to see this because you have the knowledge and experience. like when parents tell there kids not to do something as they know and the kid ignores, lol

thanks.


----------



## sizar (Nov 13, 2008)

Warren mate i think your missing the point .. between LEAN BODY MASS is everything in your body apart from BODY FAT

But Lean tissue is the amount of muscle .. alone .. not bone or frame of the person .. when it comes to tissue it has nothing to do with being tall or short.

which i think whats Paul saying .. gear should be dosed based on Muscle/lean tissue of the person not body weight or lean body mass.


----------



## Incredible Bulk (Sep 19, 2007)

Testaholic said:


> i think there is some insane gear usage on this board in relation to development, but its a personal choice and its never gonna change no matter whats said..


i agree... with all respect to the OP, he has made some good changes with gaining mass and losing bf% but for jacking up the gear to 2.5g i'd expect something better to warrant becoming the human pin cushion.


----------



## sizar (Nov 13, 2008)

Incredible Bulk said:


> i agree... with all respect to the OP, he has made some good changes with gaining mass and losing bf% but for jacking up the gear to 2.5g i'd expect something better to warrant becoming the human pin cushion.


i think no matter how much you up the dose ..the body can only cope with so much at certain time .. and rest will be wasted but who knows what's their limits are ..


----------



## hilly (Jan 19, 2008)

for me i think as paul has said and others dosages should be piced according to developement/LBM. some1 who is 13 stone at 10% will and should use less than some1 who is 15 stone at 10%. the 13 stone guy will get the same results from 500mg as the guy who is 15 stone using 750mg IMO. Like all drugs the should be doses according to weight IMO.

I have used higher and lower doses and found at my weight and developement i dont need higher doses. when i say higher i mean 1.5g.

I intend to push my weight from a current 14 stone at around 8% to 16 stone with as minimum gain in bodyfat as possible without breaking 1g total by next may. Will i manage it?? possibly not but im going to give it a go and see were i get. if i need to push doses past this then i will but only as a last resort.

there will be some peptide use in there


----------



## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

Incredible Bulk said:


> i agree... with all respect to the OP, he has made some good changes with gaining mass and losing bf% but for jacking up the gear to 2.5g i'd expect something better to warrant becoming the human pin cushion.


totally agree IB


----------



## Incredible Bulk (Sep 19, 2007)

sizar said:


> i think no matter how much you up the dose ..the body can only cope with so much at certain time .. and rest will be wasted but who knows what's their limits are ..


pour water into a cup, the cup can only take so much before overspilling.

if you've got a small cup its fruitless to be pouring in a lot of water...

i need the the toilet now...all this talk of water :laugh:


----------



## sizar (Nov 13, 2008)

Incredible Bulk said:


> pour water into a cup, the cup can only take so much before overspilling.
> 
> if you've got a small cup its fruitless to be pouring in a lot of water...
> 
> i need the the toilet now...all this talk of water :laugh:


Exactly i know what you mean

and you talked about WATER lol :laugh:


----------



## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

i have been coaching a friend of mine for a year now because i have revamped his training and diet so he sticks to a diet Mon-Fri he takes nearly a gram less per week than he did a year ago but he is a stone heavier and in much better condition....my point is yes take and use gear but understand it is a piece to the puzzle not the whole puzzle...


----------



## sizar (Nov 13, 2008)

Pscarb said:


> i have been coaching a friend of mine for a year now because i have revamped his training and diet so he sticks to a diet Mon-Fri he takes nearly a gram less per week than he did a year ago but he is a stone heavier and in much better condition....*my point is yes take and use gear but understand it is a piece to the puzzle not the whole puzzle.*..


love it :thumb:

Reps


----------



## warren (Jun 16, 2008)

sizar said:


> Warren mate i think your missing the point .. between LEAN BODY MASS is everything in your body apart from BODY FAT
> 
> But Lean tissue is the amount of muscle .. alone .. not bone or frame of the person .. when it comes to tissue it has nothing to do with being tall or short.
> 
> which i think whats Paul saying .. gear should be dosed based on Muscle/lean tissue of the person not body weight or lean body mass.


no mate im just not getting it across very well. what i was sayin is 200lbs of lean tissue on a guy 5' will look impressive, now take a guy with 200lbs of lean tissue but is 6' now he will look skinny. so should the dosing be different? they both have the same ammount of lean tissue but taller one loks skinny due to it being spread over a larger frame.

take 10lbs of steak, and spread 5lbs over a 10''x10'' space and then take the otehr 5lbs and spread it over a 20''x20'' space one will look bulkier but in reality both has the ame ammount of steak??

this makes sence in my head but cant get it out lol, btw im not szying i agree with taking lots etc etc i think people will take what they want and compleatly agree with the points made but this wa just a thought when size mentioned.


----------



## sizar (Nov 13, 2008)

warren_1987 said:


> no mate im just not getting it across very well. what i was sayin is 200lbs of lean tissue on a guy 5' will look impressive, now take a guy with 200lbs of lean tissue but is 6' now he will look skinny. so should the dosing be different? *they both have the same ammount of lean tissue *but taller one loks skinny due to it being spread over a larger frame.
> 
> take 10lbs of steak, and spread 5lbs over a 10''x10'' space and then take the otehr 5lbs and spread it over a 20''x20'' space one will look bulkier but in reality both has the ame ammount of steak??
> 
> this makes sence in my head but cant get it out lol, btw im not szying i agree with taking lots etc etc i think people will take what they want and compleatly agree with the points made but this wa just a thought when size mentioned.


No they do not


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## xzx (Jun 6, 2008)

sizar said:


> No they do not


 Correct, if they both have the same lean tissue the taller guy will be obviuosly be heavier, NOT the same weight!

If they are both the same weight then the tall guy will have LESS lean tissue due to bone size/weight.


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## sizar (Nov 13, 2008)

xzx said:


> Correct, if they both have the same lean tissue the taller guy will be obviuosly be heavier, NOT the same weight!
> 
> If they are both the same weight then the tall guy will have LESS lean tissue due to bone size/weight.


Thank you Finally someone understood what i was on about .. LEAN TISSUE IS NOT LEAN BODY MASS.


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## Mikazagreat (Apr 10, 2009)

Incredible Bulk said:


> i agree... with all respect to the OP, he has made some good changes with gaining mass and losing bf% but for jacking up the gear to 2.5g i'd expect something better to warrant becoming the human pin cushion.


I haven't been using the 2.5 grams for more than 6 weeks already, and for my poor genetics i think i am doin fine.

I really don't get your point and pscarb's ?! if the 2.5 is soo much (for my size !!) and i haven't done well enough for those 2.5 grams !!

u suggest that if u take too much gear for your size u will not benefit from the most of it !?


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## Incredible Bulk (Sep 19, 2007)

where do you go from here?

3g?

3g+


----------



## goonerton (Sep 7, 2009)

xzx said:


> Correct, if they both have the same lean tissue the taller guy will be obviuosly be heavier, NOT the same weight!
> 
> If they are both the same weight then the tall guy will have LESS lean tissue due to bone size/weight.


He never said that one wouldn`t be heavier. He said they both would have 200lb of lean tissue. Which is obviously right, unless of course you think a ton of bricks weighs more than a ton of feathers:lol:

Personally I don`t think you can work out how much gear people need just by going on their weight or lean tissue mass. Some people simply respond better to gear than others.

But regardless of how poorly I responded , I would not want to start banging these high doses, I would rather get by with less gains on sensible doses.

The way I look at it. The higher the doses the more likelihood of getting health issues, and since I want to keep using for as long as poss, I would prefer to keep the doses moderate and hopefully prolong the time I can do it.


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## warren (Jun 16, 2008)

sizar said:


> No they do not


yes they do !!

re-read my post, it says if *both have 200lbs of lean tissue, *YES they both have the same , being 200lbs. i never mentioned overall weight.

obv the taller guy would weigh more, thats why in my v firstpost i made the guy slighlty heavier to compenate for bone etc

so both have 200lbs of lean tisue , the shorter guy may weigh 230lbs, the taller guy may weigh 260lbs but they BOTH have the 200lbs of lean tissue.

would the shorter guy be justified in using mre gear even though he as the same lean tissue , but looks bigger.


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## Greyphantom (Oct 23, 2003)

sizar said:


> No they do not





xzx said:


> Correct, if they both have the same lean tissue the taller guy will be obviuosly be heavier, NOT the same weight!
> 
> If they are both the same weight then the tall guy will have LESS lean tissue due to bone size/weight.





sizar said:


> Thank you Finally someone understood what i was on about .. LEAN TISSUE IS NOT LEAN BODY MASS.


Actually in the last post of Warrens he is right, as described by Sizar he is talking about Lean tissue, not LBM... thus 200lbs of lean tissue or just the muscle and not the bones etc would look smaller on a taller person... or did I misconstrue Warrens post?

As for the more is better or less is better debate I am somewhat in between... personally I find that more works better for me than less (although not talking huge amounts) and I believe that its all about how an individual reacts to a compound... ie one person might gain really well off 250mg and put on 10kg in a cycle while another might need 500mg to do the same (factoring that diets and training are the same or at least similar)...

*edit* oh I was correct in assuming that Warren was talking about just the lean tissue weight... he got in just before me...


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## sizar (Nov 13, 2008)

no guys if you read the original POST he made ..

this is what he said

( i should have made it more clear ,these are just for example

i wont try do the maths lol but if a guy is 5' and 14st at 10%bf he will look impressive size wise and people could look and justify gear use by saying oh yeah he has the size.

but then a guy who was 15st at 10% (allowing for larger bone size etc ) but was 6'5 would look skinny,

*now both would have the same lbm *( like i said i havent done the maths etc ) but one would look massive wone would look skinny , would it be more justified the shorter one using more gear as he looks bigger ebven though the taller guy has the same lbs just looks skinny due to height.

i do totally agree with people will use what they want to or feel need to use, and its easier for you and other more experienced guys to see this because you have the knowledge and experience. like when parents tell there kids not to do something as they know and the kid ignores, lol

thanks.)


----------



## warren (Jun 16, 2008)

sizar said:


> no guys if you read the original POST he made ..
> 
> this is what he said
> 
> ...


yeah but i corrected that in the post i just made which is when you replied no they wouldnt. think its a slight mix up, read my last post. an i did say i hadnt done the math there just an example and i had made the taller person weigh more therefore making the lbm the same , obv tough not acurate but trying to get the point that xx ammount of lbt on a 5' guy looks more than n a 6'5 guy , etc . but yet have same


----------



## sizar (Nov 13, 2008)

warren_1987 said:


> yeah but i corrected that in the post i just made which is when you replied no they wouldnt. think its a slight mix up, read my last post. an i did say i hadnt done the math there just an example and i had made the taller person weigh more therefore making the lbm the same , obv tough not acurate but trying to get the point that xx ammount of lbt on a 5' guy looks more than n a 6'5 guy , etc . but yet have same


the FACT is mate when we all mentioned lean tissue then you changed your word.. but you kept on talking lean body mass this and that. forget it.


----------



## Mikazagreat (Apr 10, 2009)

Incredible Bulk said:


> where do you go from here?
> 
> 3g?
> 
> 3g+


nope, come off 5 months then go back on similar doses with different stack only test would remain the same.


----------



## warren (Jun 16, 2008)

ofcourse i would, im happy to be corrected. if iam corrected on something i wont carry on calling it the wrong thing. i am happy to learn that what i was thinking is lean tissue and not lean mass. thats not the argument.

my question was if both have the same lean tissue ( as you corrected me not lean mass) but one was taller and looked skinny but the shorted guy looked ''hench'' would the shorter guy be more justified in using higher doeses as he LOOKS bgger althogh lbt is the same as the taller guy who looks skinny. think that maks perfect sence? or are we going to go crazey and say well not just lean tissue but lean tisse per ince of height etc etc


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## MR RIGSBY (Jun 12, 2007)

Mikazagreat said:


> nope, come off 5 months then go back on similar doses with different stack only test would remain the same.


Think the point is mate because you've set your benchmark so high, so early your going to have to run 2.5g+ each time you cycle or be dissapointed.

Its totally up to the individual what doses you run but if your in it for the long term then its definately more sensible to start off lower and work up.


----------



## warren (Jun 16, 2008)

MR RIGSBY said:


> Think the point is mate because you've set your benchmark so high, so early your going to have to run 2.5g+ each time you cycle or be dissapointed.
> 
> Its totally up to the individual what doses you run but if your in it for the long term then its definately more sensible to start off lower and work up.


what about running it the way joe said he did for the powerlifting. started im on larger than normal dose to get a benc mark in size or strength etc etc then once a good point as been reached, use lower doses?

dont know if ths will work for everyone, as i havent tried it. but thinking out the box


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## SALKev (Feb 28, 2009)

sizar said:


> the FACT is mate when we all mentioned lean tissue then you changed your word.. but you kept on talking lean body mass this and that. forget it.


Are you trying to be a tw4t :confused1: :confused1:

Of course he would change it to be correct - wouldn't you?

He didn't mention lbm after he got corrected and used lean tissue from there onwards..

Fvck me...


----------



## MR RIGSBY (Jun 12, 2007)

warren_1987 said:


> what about running it the way joe said he did for the powerlifting. started im on larger than normal dose to get a benc mark in size or strength etc etc then once a good point as been reached, use lower doses?
> 
> dont know if ths will work for everyone, as i havent tried it. but thinking out the box


What Joe said was specific only to DMCC aims for competing in a powerlifting comp, has no bearing on trying to gain size year in year out.

I agree with Joe in that there shouldn't be one generic answer given to anyone who asks a question about steroids without konowing fully there situation.

However if someone was to say they want to build and maintain size in the long run (ie they don't just want a quick fix for there hols) then without a doubt I think the best way is to start off on say 500mg and work up cycle after cycle, its the only way you'll progressively get bigger year after year.


----------



## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

Mikazagreat said:


> I haven't been using the 2.5 grams for more than 6 weeks already, and for my poor genetics i think i am doin fine.
> 
> I really don't get your point and pscarb's ?! if the 2.5 is soo much (for my size !!) and i haven't done well enough for those 2.5 grams !!
> 
> u suggest that if u take too much gear for your size u will not benefit from the most of it !?


i never said that what i said was that for the amount of muscle you have and the fact this is your 2nd cycle 2.5g in my opinion is to much and with a better diet/training you would grow on less......am i impressed by your progress well you have certainly grown but to say that you have used the amount of gear you have used and have not been off since January then no mate to be honest i would of expected more...but listen it is your choice and your body so makes no difference to me but i stand by what i said at the beginning in my opinion you are using to much gear at your stage.



SALKev said:


> Are you trying to be a tw4t :confused1: :confused1:
> 
> Of course he would change it to be correct - wouldn't you?
> 
> ...


are you trying to get banned? why do you feel the need to insult sizar? can you not get your point across with the abusive language?

my point about the amount of gear and muscle mass is the same no matter the height if you have 200lbs of lean tissue not weight but lean tissue why would you need more gear if you was 6 foot opposed to 5'7" ?? you still have the same amount of lean tissue.......at 6 foot you may need more calories but not more gear although this is biggest problem with most as many confuse the 2......and opt for more gear than calories.....


----------



## warren (Jun 16, 2008)

MR RIGSBY said:


> What Joe said was specific only to DMCC aims for competing in a powerlifting comp, has no bearing on trying to gain size year in year out.
> 
> I agree with Joe in that there shouldn't be one generic answer given to anyone who asks a question about steroids without konowing fully there situation.
> 
> However if someone was to say they want to build and maintain size in the long run (ie they don't just want a quick fix for there hols) then without a doubt I think the best way is to start off on say 500mg and work up cycle after cycle, its the only way you'll progressively get bigger year after year.


yeah sensible, was jut wondering others veiws n this, i personally havent tried it that way so couldnt say.

does anyone else have an veiws on my question about lbt, would you say its ok for a guy with x ammount at 5' ,looks big to use a higher dose than a guy who has the same ammount of lbt but is 6'5 and therefre looks like he hasnt trained a day?

technically they would both hav the same lbt but because one looks like he is underweight he would get tld to use less,

i will just say im not stating they should or shouldnt im just wondering


----------



## SALKev (Feb 28, 2009)

Pscarb said:


> are you trying to get banned? why do you feel the need to insult sizar? can you not get your point across with the abusive language?


It wasn't meant to come across as an insult and yes I could but TBH I doubt it would get my point across as effectively and he was rude and pretty ignorant to warren - we could discuss the ethics behind that but hey, it won't change anything.

If that came across as an insult sizar, I apologise, it wasn't meant to - I got a little hotheaded


----------



## Mikazagreat (Apr 10, 2009)

Pscarb said:


> i never said that what i said was that for the amount of muscle you have and the fact this is your 2nd cycle 2.5g in my opinion is to much and with a better diet/training you would grow on less......am i impressed by your progress well you have certainly grown but to say that you have used the amount of gear you have used and have not been off since January then no mate to be honest i would of expected more...but listen it is your choice and your body so makes no difference to me but i stand by what i said at the beginning in my opinion you are using to much gear at your stage.


I still think it's my 3d cycle 

if i did 3 blasts x 12weeks and 2 cruises in the middle is it same as 6 weeks of dbol cycle ?

I think 1 blast is similar to 1 cycle.

I had the lousy cycle first then came off remember.

Then i finished 1 blast (1.6 g a week), cruised, then now the other blast 6 weeks in.

I don't expect more as i am doin everything i sleep 8-10 hours a day i train 5 days a week (i have used gear because i was not recovering from my training intesity, i deadlifted 5 plates each side and squat 4 plates each side with decent forms and few reps before i touched gear) i don't let gains come over strength, my diet during cycle include at least 6 meals a day with 250-300 grams protien and around 3000-3500 calories.

Can't see why i should be gaining more!

Again mate my current stats are 5.7/210 pounds, Caliper says i am 14.5% bodyfats.


----------



## Smitch (Dec 29, 2008)

Worth a bump....


----------



## xjx (Jul 11, 2014)

Interesting thread, just read the entire thing. Didn't know JW but sad to hear of what has happened.


----------



## SelflessSelfie (May 25, 2014)

Smitch said:


> Worth a bump....


Enjoyed reading the ops post and this thread, thanks for bumping it mate!

So many people saying "Too fat to cycle", "Don't use tren until you have 4+ cycles under your belt" confused me a little when I decided to start down this path.

Personal circumstances differ so much and personal goals that it is just ignorant to give blanket advice. I have gained massively on my first cycle due to hard work and a nailed diet, gained 26 pounds in 8 weeks and had no side effects from the test. Now I'm thinking of adding some tren ace to my first cycle at low dose to assess my tolerance and to cut some fat ready for my first cycle after photos. This is my personal goal and tren along side the same efforts I have put into gaining is the way for me to do it.

A lot of this forum would just say I'm not ready and try to dissuade me, but why not use the best tools to achieve our goals and get the best results we can?

Suppose we all need to be a little less judgemental and a little more open minded.


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## Smitch (Dec 29, 2008)

SelflessSelfie said:


> Enjoyed reading the ops post and this thread, thanks for bumping it mate!
> 
> So many people saying "Too fat to cycle", "Don't use tren until you have 4+ cycles under your belt" confused me a little when I decided to start down this path.
> 
> ...


Yeah totally.

I ran test, tren and mast for my first injectable cycle, i like to find stuff out for myself rather than listen to what others have read on the internet and taken as gospel.


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## 39005 (Nov 25, 2013)

You have to remember that most people post with the intention of trying to limit harm , i dont say to people yes take xyz compound right away only to hear they have croaked or are in a nuthouse somewhere, its about taking responsibility for your posts and as i dont know most peoples medical history thats the best way to do it ( imo ).

Most of the drugs we use are powerful hormones, some are powerful cancer drugs etc- being careful is common sense.

If that does not make you think then carry on and dont ask for advise you are not going to listen too ( this is not aimed at anyone in this thread btw)


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## Smitch (Dec 29, 2008)

aqualung said:


> You have to remember that most people post with the intention of trying to limit harm , i dont say to people yes take xyz compound right away only to hear they have croaked or are in a nuthouse somewhere, its about taking responsibility for your posts and as i dont know most peoples medical history thats the best way to do it ( imo ).
> 
> Most of the drugs we use are powerful hormones, some are powerful cancer drugs etc- being careful is common sense.
> 
> If that does not make you think then carry on and dont ask for advise you are not going to listen too ( this is not aimed at anyone in this thread btw)


I completely agree.

But i will do my own reading and make my own choices as to what is best for me, but crucially i won't try and blame other people for my own mistakes if it all goes tits up.


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## 2004mark (Oct 26, 2013)

aqualung said:


> You have to remember that *most people post with the intention of trying to limit harm* , i dont say to people yes take xyz compound right away only to hear they have croaked or are in a nuthouse somewhere, its about taking responsibility for your posts and as i dont know most peoples medical history thats the best way to do it ( imo ).
> 
> Most of the drugs we use are powerful hormones, some are powerful cancer drugs etc- being careful is common sense.
> 
> If that does not make you think then carry on and dont ask for advise you are not going to listen too ( this is not aimed at anyone in this thread btw)


I don't think so... I would say 'most' are just followers looking to flame a newbie with their little bit of knowledge.

I've always had much the same attitude that JW expressed in the OP. Thinking about it though... I remember reading this post years back, so maybe it's this post that formed that opinion.

Good bump btw @Smitch


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## SelflessSelfie (May 25, 2014)

aqualung said:


> You have to remember that most people post with the intention of trying to limit harm , i dont say to people yes take xyz compound right away only to hear they have croaked or are in a nuthouse somewhere, its about taking responsibility for your posts and as i dont know most peoples medical history thats the best way to do it ( imo ).
> 
> Most of the drugs we use are powerful hormones, some are powerful cancer drugs etc- being careful is common sense.
> 
> If that does not make you think then carry on and dont ask for advise you are not going to listen too ( this is not aimed at anyone in this thread btw)


I completely agree with this. I suppose it's easier when it's an active member of the forum you have seen doing research and asking the questions, making progress and using the advice given. You may be more inclined to use a little less caution advising someone who you may have built up a picture of as being a responsible, mature, dedicated user.

Where's as the daily first post guys "Been training 3 months, first cycle, diet consisting of haribo and McDonald's, four compounds a good idea?" type of posts (Yeah OK this is extreme) may be given far different advice.

Horses for courses I suppose!


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## 39005 (Nov 25, 2013)

2004mark said:


> I don't think so... I would say 'most' are just followers looking to flame a newbie with their little bit of knowledge.
> 
> I've always had much the same attitude that JW expressed in the OP. Thinking about it though... I remember reading this post years back, so maybe it's this post that formed that opinion.
> 
> Good bump btw @Smitch


looking back at my early morning post i would change 'most' to 'some'  , when you have been here a while you know exactly who to ask specific questions too regarding AAS /peptides /training/diet / competing etc etc - personally i expect anyone who asks a question to at least make some effort into finding out themselves about what they are asking - its just called common sense as far as im concerned.


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## 2004mark (Oct 26, 2013)

aqualung said:


> looking back at my early morning post i would change 'most' to 'some'  , when you have been here a while you know exactly who to ask specific questions too regarding AAS /peptides /training/diet / competing etc etc - personally i expect anyone who asks a question to at least make some effort into finding out themselves about what they are asking - its just called common sense as far as im concerned.


Yeah, that's sort of what I was getting at.

What I get from the OP is that it's not aimed at the considered few, but more the people who offer 'default' advice. Which can be seen across a much wider variety of topics... I mean 300g of protein is the correct amount for anyone of any weight, at any bf%, for any goal right


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