# are soldiers heroes



## Ashcrapper (Jul 3, 2008)

EDIT: Changed the title of this as looking back I'm not quite comfortable with it. The original title referred specifically to Lee Rigby

Keep seeing this on reports/social media etc. Do you agree they are heroes ? if so, why?


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## L11 (Jan 21, 2011)

Not really, he had a job that involve fighting people in another country and he got killed in London by some extremists.. Can't see how that makes him a hero tbh.


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## hotchy (Aug 20, 2009)

Every single person in the armed forces who goes out risking there own life's for us is a hero.


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## Paisleylad (Jan 22, 2013)

hotchy said:


> Every single person in the armed forces who goes out risking there own life's for us is a hero.


Nail on the head.


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## Wheyman (Sep 6, 2011)

just as anyone is proud to defend their country is a hero. Rigby was killed because he was proud of his country and was willing to defend it.

Its more that Rigby stands for something we must preserve and stop mindless hatred of anyone who defends there own country.


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## latblaster (Oct 26, 2013)

Depends how you define what a 'hero' is I think.

The guys in the Services that I know don't for one moment consider themselves to be heroes....or brave.

They do a job & sometimes some of them give their life to save another, & that is a hero.

This is not in any way detracting anything from them. As I 100% support what they do. Whether I agree with the policies in place is a different matter.

But to answer your question Ash, I don't think he is a hero.

You're my hero Ash.. :wub:


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## tom42021 (Jan 19, 2012)

hotchy said:


> Every single person in the armed forces who goes out risking there own life's for us is a hero.


this exactly


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## zack amin (Mar 13, 2012)

His burial is today not far from Me, infact in Milkys home town, he was a local lad, went to Middleton college, think it's safe to safe family friends and the general public take pride and feel more humble with anyone who's been killed in cold blood, labelled ad a hero, everyone's a hero to someone


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## L11 (Jan 21, 2011)

hotchy said:


> Every single person in the armed forces who goes out risking there own life's for us is a hero.


This is where half the forum is going to turn on me BUT...

How exactly is going out to Afghanistan/Iraq/Libya to kill in order to liberate *their* people risking their life for me??

If we had a war on home soil and my friends and family and country were in danger, then I'd be the first to praise all the people that protected *us*. I'd actually seriously consider joining the army.


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## paulandabbi (Mar 13, 2013)

Wheyman said:


> just as anyone is proud to defend their country is a hero. Rigby was killed because he was proud of his country and was willing to defend it.
> 
> Its more that Rigby stands for something we must preserve and stop mindless hatred of anyone who defends there own country, especially from people who are happy to live here but hate our culture and want us to change.


This ^^^^^

People in any of the armed forces are hero's!! They have the bollox to go and fight to defend our country and all the people in it even though some of the people in it are the one's we need defending from!!


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## Xelibrium (May 7, 2013)

When i was serving i didn't see myself as a hero was a job, but now that im out i do see soldiers as heros the job is a lifestyle that puts them in danger and at a phone call could be saving this country from attacks.

My cousin lost both legs and an arm in Afghanistan to me he is a hero and anyone who disagrees that they arnt needs there head testing.


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## eezy1 (Dec 14, 2010)

L11 said:


> This is where half the forum is going to turn on me BUT...
> 
> How exactly is going out to Afghanistan/Iraq/Libya to kill in order to liberate *their* people risking their life for me??
> 
> If we had a war on home soil and my friends and family and country were in danger, then I'd be the first to praise all the people that protected *us*. I'd actually seriously consider joining the army.


he already joined the army and would be first on the frontline if their was war on home turf, same way they go out risking their lives in other countries


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## Ashcrapper (Jul 3, 2008)

Mikey81 said:


> Hero end of
> 
> Pointless thread


why is it a pointless thread? seems like a pretty good debate to me.


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## Paisleylad (Jan 22, 2013)

Ashcrapper said:


> Keep seeing this on reports/social media etc. Do you agree he is a hero? if so, why?


He obviously wont be a hero in everyones eyes.

But to a large part of the country he is and most importantly he will always be his little boys "hero".

So yes in my opinion he's a hero.


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## a.notherguy (Nov 17, 2008)

a hero is someone who goes above and beyond his duty.

did the drummer do this? or is he being labelled a hero purely for being in the wrong place and the wrong time and being murdered by 2 [email protected]?


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## Mr_Morocco (May 28, 2011)

L11 said:


> This is where half the forum is going to turn on me BUT...
> 
> How exactly is going out to Afghanistan/Iraq/Libya to kill in order to liberate *their* people risking their life for me??
> 
> If we had a war on home soil and my friends and family and country were in danger, then I'd be the first to praise all the people that protected *us*. I'd actually seriously consider joining the army.


This..

I dont see why hes a 'hero' hes a normal bloke, the army is a job he chose, he's not defending this country neither are the rest of the army by being in Afghanistan. I worked in Afghanistan for 12 months on the same bases they live on, am i a hero too


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## Paisleylad (Jan 22, 2013)

a.notherguy said:


> a hero is someone who goes above and beyond his duty.


Id say loosing your life due to being soldier for our armed forces above and beyond his duty.


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## a.notherguy (Nov 17, 2008)

Paisleylad said:


> Id say loosing your life due to being soldier for our armed forces above and beyond his duty.


whilst i dont totally agree with you (does that make all murder victims heroes? or are they unfortunate victims?) i really do get where your coming from.


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## benno_2010 (Oct 8, 2010)

As has been said - due to being in the forces automatically IMO makes him aswell as all the others heroes, I certainly wouldn't want to be going to afghan et al to fight a war!


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## megatron (Apr 21, 2004)

This thread is an insult


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## Paisleylad (Jan 22, 2013)

a.notherguy said:


> whilst i dont totally agree with you (does that make all murder victims heroes? or are they unfortunate victims?) i really do get where your coming from.


You honestly cant differentiate between the cases.

Its not about the poor lad having being killed which makes him a hero to many...he signed up to defend you and i should the need arise.

This alone makes him a hero to many(not all).


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## megatron (Apr 21, 2004)

Another pointless death in the name of the almighty sky fairy... Thanks Islam.


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## Ashcrapper (Jul 3, 2008)

When I look at people who served in the armed forces, I consider those who fought in WW1 and 2 heroes. Not sure I class people like Lee Rigby as one.

This is by no means trying to disrespect him in any way before anyone starts acting like a minge, I am genuinely curious about peoples thoughts, I don't think anyone can say there is a definitive answer, it is all down to your own interpretation.

It's not a job I would choose to do but at the end of the day it is a job and one he chose to do. If he is a hero as such, are nurses and firemen? If not why not? They save lives.


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## Ashcrapper (Jul 3, 2008)

megatron said:


> This thread is an insult


why?



megatron said:


> Another pointless death in the name of the almighty sky fairy... Thanks Islam.


its got **** all to do with Islam, I'm asking why he is classed as a hero. If he is only classed as a hero because of what happened why is that. So climb off your ****ing high horse and let people have a sensible debate.


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## Xelibrium (May 7, 2013)

i would class some firemen and nurses/docs as heros too they save lifes


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## L11 (Jan 21, 2011)

Ashcrapper said:


> When I look at people who served in the armed forces, I consider those who fought in WW1 and 2 heroes. Not sure I class people like Lee Rigby as one.
> 
> .


Exactly. People that protected OUR country, our people, our families, our values.

And yes imo, nhs doctors > soldiers.


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## a.notherguy (Nov 17, 2008)

Paisleylad said:


> You honestly cant differentiate between the cases.
> 
> Its not about the poor lad having being killed which makes him a hero to many...he signed up to defend you and i should the need arise.
> 
> This alone makes him a hero to many(not all).


i think in this rare instance there is a differentiation between the cases tho as he wasnt engaged in combat or in a war zone.

dont get me wrong, im not anti military (am anti war tho) but i think that labelling every troop a hero detracts from the true acts of heroism that happen daily on the front line where people make the conscious decision to go out and put their lives on the line in a genuine war zone.


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## Paisleylad (Jan 22, 2013)

Ashcrapper said:


> When I look at people who served in the armed forces, I consider those who fought in WW1 and 2 heroes. Not sure I class people like Lee Rigby as one.
> 
> This is by no means trying to disrespect him in any way before anyone starts acting like a minge, I am genuinely curious about peoples thoughts, I don't think anyone can say there is a definitive answer, it is all down to your own interpretation.
> 
> It's not a job I would choose to do but at the end of the day it is a job and one he chose to do. If he is a hero as such, are nurses and firemen? If not why not? They save lives.


Whats the difference between ww2 soldier and lee rigby?

Its not as if soldiers can pick and choose which wars to fight.

Id say by not classing him as the same you are being disrespectful and im sure th soldiers of ww1/2 would agree.


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## zack amin (Mar 13, 2012)

Ashcrapper said:


> why?
> 
> its got **** all to do with Islam, I'm asking why he is classed as a hero. If he is only classed as a hero because of what happened why is that. So climb off your ****ing high horse and let people have a sensible debate.


He did this in another thread just spits crap about Islam then accuses people of being arrogant, ignore him this is a good thread


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## Ashcrapper (Jul 3, 2008)

Paisleylad said:


> Whats the difference between ww2 soldier and lee rigby?
> 
> Its not as if soldiers can pick and choose which wars to fight.
> 
> Id say by not classing him as the same you are being disrespectful and im sure th soldiers of ww1/2 would agree.


he had a choice whether to join in the first place


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## Paisleylad (Jan 22, 2013)

a.notherguy said:


> i think in this rare instance there is a differentiation between the cases tho as he wasnt engaged in combat or in a war zone.
> 
> dont get me wrong, im not anti military (am anti war tho) but i think that labelling every troop a hero detracts from the true acts of heroism that happen daily on the front line where people make the conscious decision to go out and put their lives on the line in a genuine war zone.


I do see where your coming from and as mentioned previously its about opinions.

Fortunately we have the freedom to express these opinions without worry or fear.... In the most part this is down to our armed forces over the years.


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## Ashcrapper (Jul 3, 2008)

zack amin said:


> He did this in another thread just spits crap about Islam then accuses people of being arrogant, ignore him this is a good thread


yeh I know. I think all religion is utter bollocks, but that's for another thread. dont see why this cant be a sensible debate


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## Paisleylad (Jan 22, 2013)

Ashcrapper said:


> he had a choice whether to join in the first place


Which makes it all the braver you could say.


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## L11 (Jan 21, 2011)

Ashcrapper said:


> he had a choice whether to join in the first place


basically. I'm not an expert on military history but i would assume a larger percentage of the people that joined to fight in WW2 did so in order to protect their own country...

We have no home threat apart from extremism so i cant imagine that's a deciding factor in anyone joining the armed forces in the past 10 years..


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## Ashcrapper (Jul 3, 2008)

Paisleylad said:


> Which makes it all the braver you could say.


can certainly look at it that way and I can see your point, it's a fair comment


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## Mr_Morocco (May 28, 2011)

Paisleylad said:


> I do see where your coming from and as mentioned previously its about opinions.
> 
> Fortunately we have the freedom to express these opinions without worry or fear.... In the most part this is down to our armed forces over the years.


How has going to war with Iraq/Afghanistan helped us to keep freedom? If anything its f*cked up our economy because we can't really afford to be over there.


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## Mish (May 1, 2011)

The media are labelling him as a hero because it promotes him as the face against extremism. He becomes a poster boy and someone that is instantly recognisable.

It's is right for him to have private funeral. It's right for his memory and his family. I bet there were a fair few people in the Cabinet that were pushing for a full military honours funeral if only to fuel their own gain and line their own pockets.

The sad truth is that Drummer Rigby was just in the wrong place at the wrong time.


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## Guest (Jul 12, 2013)

That little chap, had riggers on the back of his man utd shirt..

I think every son in the land should look upto there fathers, as hero's

If there decent hard working, and bring there families up in a loving secure environment.... period.


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## Xelibrium (May 7, 2013)

I think we are well within our rights to be over there, terrorist training camps - the main source of heroin - 9/11 (please dont start with conspiracy theories) london bombings the list goes on... May sound a little extreme id happily vote yes on pulling our troops out and sending a nice nuke to Afghanistan.


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## littlesimon (May 24, 2010)

Interesting thread, haven't really thought about it to be honest, but I get the impression that many call him a hero out of fear of being viewed as unpatriotic.

I guess you could say he was a hero or performed a heroic act by joining the army since hero is primarily defined as *a man who performs an act of courage or admired for his courage*. Putting your name down to serve on the frontline certainly takes some courage regardless of what your motives are, be it to defend the country or just as a job due to high unemployment and zero job prospects.


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## Fortunatus (Apr 12, 2013)

He may be a hero to many but the way in which he died is making him a hero? which I don't agree with at all. it frustrates me, If it was a ordinary person wearing a army top and it was them murdered. would they be a hero? no because their just a civilian.

If someone in the army died a natural death would he still be labeled this big national hero? no.

so why does his job decide weather a man is a hero or not.

If he wasn't in the army news headlines would be "lee rigby dad of one murdered" not "lee rigby national hero".

I take nothing away from them i respect everything they do I just don't like the way they are considered more important deaths etc


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## Paisleylad (Jan 22, 2013)

Mr_Morocco said:


> How has going to war with Iraq/Afghanistan helped us to keep freedom? If anything its f*cked up our economy because we can't really afford to be over there.


Who mentioned iraq or afghanistan.

Oh and lets not try and blame out on economy on afghan... Our own bankers seen to our economy.


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## Mr_Morocco (May 28, 2011)

Paisleylad said:


> I do see where your coming from and as mentioned previously its about opinions.
> 
> Fortunately we have the freedom to express these opinions without worry or fear.... *In the most part this is down to our armed forces over the years*.


If your not talking about wars, what are you talking about?


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## Paisleylad (Jan 22, 2013)

Ashcrapper said:


> yeh I know. I think all religion is utter bollocks, but that's for another thread. dont see why this cant be a sensible debate


Agree on the religion/bollocks lol.

Thats a whole other thread.


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## Ashcrapper (Jul 3, 2008)

littlesimon said:


> Interesting thread, haven't really thought about it to be honest, but I get the impression that many call him a hero out of fear of being viewed as unpatriotic.
> 
> I guess you could say he was a hero or performed a heroic act by joining the army since hero is primarily defined as *a man who performs an act of courage or admired for his courage*. Putting your name down to serve on the frontline certainly takes some courage regardless of what your motives are, be it to defend the country or just as a job due to high unemployment and zero job prospects.





Fortunatus said:


> He may be a hero to many but the way in which he died is making him a hero? which I don't agree with at all. it frustrates me, If it was a ordinary person wearing a army top and it was them murdered. would they be a hero? no because their just a civilian.
> 
> If someone in the army died a natural death would he still be labeled this big national hero? no.
> 
> ...


both good posts


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## Paisleylad (Jan 22, 2013)

Mr_Morocco said:


> If your not talking about wars, what are you talking about?


Ok lets spin it on its head.

Do you believe the wars of the past havent allowed us to keep our freedom from others who would look to destroy it?


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## Mr_Morocco (May 28, 2011)

Paisleylad said:


> Ok lets spin it on its head.
> 
> Do you believe the wars of the past havent allowed us to keep our freedom from others who would look to destroy it?


WW1 and WW2 yes, Iraq/Afghanistan not at all.


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## Paisleylad (Jan 22, 2013)

Mr_Morocco said:


> WW1 and WW2 yes, Iraq/Afghanistan not at all.


So you agree then with my original point?

That wars over the year played a major roll in the freedom we enjoy today.

Of course no one is going to agree with every aspect of every war but ill stick my by original comment.


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## cub (Jul 14, 2011)

Definitely a hero, he died fighting against the Islamic enemy in this country as the soldiers do in Afghanistan.


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## The Cheese (Sep 22, 2012)

L11 said:


> basically. I'm not an expert on military history but i would assume a larger percentage of the people that joined to fight in WW2 did so in order to protect their own country...
> 
> We have no home threat apart from extremism so i cant imagine that's a deciding factor in anyone joining the armed forces in the past 10 years..


Regarding the first part of your statement - most people joined up in WW2 because they had no choice. They were conscripted. The vast majority didn't join up to fight for their country. They joined up because it was either that or jail. That kinda puts a different slant whether or not they were heroes doesn't it??!! Especially when you remember that back then, the propaganda was a lot harsher than today. WW2, the "authorities" made sure everyone knew who the enemy was and they went after him with posters, radio, cinema, whatever - there was no political correctness like there is today where after saying "The problem is Islam" it has to be immediately qualified with the follow up "But not all Islam. Just the extremists".

So the majority of your 2nd World War "heroes" were only heroes because they were forced to fight. Even after being force-fed some of the harshest propaganda ever put out there.

As for the second part - extremism now is no different from extremism then. Back then extremism was Nazism, Italian Facism, Communism, etc. Really no different than Islam today - it's all about control and spreading that control as far and as wide as you can.


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## tom42021 (Jan 19, 2012)

personally i believe that all people in the army ,navy,raf ,fireservice,ambulance service,lifeboats are all heros.

some are heros to us individuals personally when weve had an injury or accident like the amulance and fire service.

others like the army if not heros to us are heros toeach other as they support each other in conflict and all have there roles.

so to me yes they are all heros if not to us,they are to each other .


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## Ashcrapper (Jul 3, 2008)

The Cheese said:


> Regarding the first part of your statement - most people joined up in WW2 because they had no choice. They were conscripted. The vast majority didn't join up to fight for their country. They joined up because it was either that or jail. That kinda puts a different slant whether or not they were heroes doesn't it??!! Especially when you remember that back then, the propaganda was a lot harsher than today. WW2, the "authorities" made sure everyone knew who the enemy was and they went after him with posters, radio, cinema, whatever - there was no political correctness like there is today where after saying "The problem is Islam" it has to be immediately qualified with the follow up "But not all Islam. Just the extremists".
> 
> So the majority of your 2nd World War "heroes" were only heroes because they were forced to fight. Even after being force-fed some of the harshest propaganda ever put out there.
> 
> As for the second part - extremism now is no different from extremism then. Back then extremism was Nazism, Italian Facism, Communism, etc. Really no different than Islam today - it's all about control and spreading that control as far and as wide as you can.


have to admit that after that post and paisleylads I am looking at this from a slightly different angle. interesting


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## essexboy (Sep 7, 2008)

This thread has evolved into what I expected.A pedantic, disagreement, over what a "Hero" is.Whether Lee Rigby deserves that title anymore Than Henry Hook,Johnny Frost,Guy Gibson etc, etc,is not really pertinent.

He has been given the label, by those who are sorrowful , for the death of a young man.A young man who took a vow to fight for his country.

He may have died as a result of a war fought in a foreign land.Yet he would have stood and fought at Dover, just as readily to defend our shores as well.He knew the risks he was taking when he signed up, much more so than those poor souls who joined up during WW1,who were ignorant of the reality of war.

Every soldier deserves to die with dignity on the battlefield.Not murdered by cowards in his homeland. If it helps his comrades, family and friends get some solice and comfort, lets call him a hero and leave it at that.


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## SierraAlpha (Jul 4, 2012)

The very fact that young lads and lasses have the bravery to put themselves in a positions where they can be killed or maimed in the defence of our country makes them all Heroes. None of them will admit it and I didn't consider myself one but these people are prepared to go through hell for each other regardless of reasons joined or the given scenario they are in.

End of.


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

he served in the armed forces who lay there lives on the line protecting our way of life like this or not this is true, this guy like other soldiers do not pick and choose where they fight and with who.....i do agree i see no real point to STILL being in Afghan but i do feel there was a need to the war in Afghan at one point but fail to see the use of us still being there......

So is/was Lee Rigby a Hero yes in my opinion he was because of the job he was asked to do and did without question and he was killed on home soil by the very type of people that the wars we are fighting are trying to kill (extremists)

Just a small note: lets keep this debate sensible where as it will not be tolerated for any racist remarks nor will any derogatory remarks concerning our soldiers doing what they are asked to do etc.......if either happens i will close the thread and ban the member.


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## GolfDelta (Jan 5, 2010)

In my personal opinion no,he isn't,not in the traditional sense of the word 'hero'.He happened to be forces and happened to get killed.But that's not to say his death wasn't tragic and disgusting.

I am ex forces and have served in Afghanistan,there was nothing heroic about it,I was young when I joined up and just did what I was told.My attitude has changed towards how the armed forces are deployed by the government,don't get me wrong,to put your life in danger in a warzone deserves respect but it is worth remembering that a lot of soldiers join up very young,are from working class backgrounds and are of lower that average intelligence,this isn't me being insulting it is fact,they do not understand the hidden agendas behind miltary deployments,they are effectively brainwashed.

I am proud to have served in the forces,it changed me for the better and tought me a lot about life but I wouldn't trust the government as far as I could throw them.Why have we intervened in conflicts in oil rich countries like Iraq and Afganistan but have allowed Syria to torture and execute tens of thousands of it's own people?Because they have nothing our country/America wants.We are being run by the rich,for the good of the rich.(eg MPs pay rises just on the news today after cutting disabled benefits,cvnts)

Realised I've went off on one lol apologies for going a bit off track.


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## SierraAlpha (Jul 4, 2012)

Nicely put Pscarb mates


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## Mr_Morocco (May 28, 2011)

Pscarb said:


> he served in the armed forces who lay there lives on the line protecting our way of life like this or not this is true, this guy like other soldiers do not pick and choose where they fight and with who.....i do agree i see no real point to STILL being in Afghan but i do feel there was a need to the war in Afghan at one point but fail to see the use of us still being there......
> 
> So is/was Lee Rigby a Hero yes in my opinion he was because of the job he was asked to do and did without question and he was killed on home soil by the very type of people that the wars we are fighting are trying to kill (extremists)
> 
> Just a small note: lets keep this debate sensible where as it will not be tolerated for any racist remarks nor will any derogatory remarks concerning our soldiers doing what they are asked to do etc.......if either happens i will close the thread and ban the member.


How exactly did he/the army protect our way of life by going to war with Iraq/Afghanistan?


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## GolfDelta (Jan 5, 2010)

essexboy said:


> This thread has evolved into what I expected.A pedantic, disagreement, over what a "Hero" is.Whether Lee Rigby deserves that title anymore Than Henry Hook,Johnny Frost,Guy Gibson etc, etc,is not really pertinent.
> 
> He has been given the label, by those who are sorrowful , for the death of a young man.A young man who took a vow to fight for his country.
> 
> ...


Couldn't agree more with that,whether or not people agree on whether or not he is a 'hero' he is a figurehead for the bravery of the armed forces.


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## Breda (May 2, 2011)

If his murder didnt go down the way it did and make front page news with all the hype nobody would even know his name.

Do I look up to him?

Do I aspire to be like Lee Rigby?

No, so in my eyes he's not a hero just another victim of mindless crime.


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## essexboy (Sep 7, 2008)

Breda said:


> If his murder didnt go down the way it did and make front page news and all the hype nobody would even know his name.
> 
> Do I look up to him?
> 
> ...


His murder wasnt mindless though was it? It was a premeditated execution carried out by Islamic extremists.


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## Breda (May 2, 2011)

essexboy said:


> His murder wasnt mindless though was it? It was a premeditated execution carried out by Islamic extremists.


Doesn't mean it was well planned and mindful mate so to me yes, it was mindless


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## L11 (Jan 21, 2011)

Breda said:


> Doesn't mean it was well planned and mindful mate so to me yes, it was mindless


+1

Trying to chop of mans head with a kitchen knife wasn't exactly well planned.

P.s to people that have quote me, great points, will reply when i get back from gym.


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

Mr_Morocco said:


> How exactly did he/the army protect our way of life by going to war with Iraq/Afghanistan?


you are looking at this from a single veiwpoint the Taliban are well documented in training/financing etc terrorst groups this was the main reason the initial point to the war was to stop this or at least reduce it which data has shown that it has done this....

our way of life is not just threatened by those coming to the UK to do harm it is a global issue (big picture use of the word not your right to go to the gym)


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## Imy79 (Oct 19, 2007)

Breda said:


> Doesn't mean it was well planned and mindful mate so to me yes, it was mindless


Agree, as they werent planning to killing someone in uniform on the street. Pretty mindless IMO, they had an aim but didn't have a well thought out plan.


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

L11 said:


> +1
> 
> Trying to chop of mans head with a kitchen knife wasn't exactly well planned.
> 
> P.s to people that have quote me, great points, will reply when i get back from gym.


to be fair you and no one else knows this for certain this may have been counted as well planned by these idiots


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

essexboy said:


> This thread has evolved into what I expected.A pedantic, disagreement, over what a "Hero" is.Whether Lee Rigby deserves that title anymore Than Henry Hook,Johnny Frost,Guy Gibson etc, etc,is not really pertinent.
> 
> He has been given the label, by those who are sorrowful , for the death of a young man.A young man who took a vow to fight for his country.
> 
> ...


for me this part in bold closes the debate.....


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## L11 (Jan 21, 2011)

Pscarb said:


> you are looking at this from a single veiwpoint the Taliban are well documented in training/financing etc terrorst groups this was the main reason the initial point to the war was to stop this or at least reduce it which data has shown that it has done this....
> 
> our way of life is not just threatened by those coming to the UK to do harm it is a global issue (big picture use of the word not your right to go to the gym)


its a bit of a paradox though, the main reason extremists want to attack us in the first place is our occupation in "their" country


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## Suprakill4 (Jul 11, 2008)

hotchy said:


> Every single person in the armed forces who goes out risking there own life's for us is a hero.


Fcuking damn right! I wouldnt have the b4lls for it thats for sure.


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## Mr_Morocco (May 28, 2011)

Pscarb said:


> you are looking at this from a single veiwpoint the Taliban are well documented in training/financing etc terrorst groups this was the main reason the initial point to the war was to stop this or at least reduce it which data has shown that it has done this....
> 
> our way of life is not just threatened by those coming to the UK to do harm it is a global issue (big picture use of the word not your right to go to the gym)


Think your getting mixed up with the Taliban and Al-Qeada, FYI theres more terrorists in Pakistan and Somalia then there is in Afghanistan. The Taliban were the ruling goverment in Afghanistan, we and the yanks actually armed them back in the day and even Bin Laden, apparently the Taliban were harbouring Bin Laden after 9/11 thats why we went to war but ive yet to see proof of this, also the war with Iraq was supposdly to protect us from WMD's which could be launced in 45 mins, which again proved to be bullsh!t.

Point is none of the above effects our day to day lives at all apart from f*cking up our economy spending billions on pointless wars.

If its a global issue shouldnt we be going to war with Pakistan/Somalia and other countries who contain known terrorists? What about Syria, if we are so drawn up on protecting freedom why are we not there helping the thousands of civillians killed each day?


----------



## Ashcrapper (Jul 3, 2008)

fair bit of food for thought in the comments and my perspective has certainly shifted a bit, hadn't looked at it from particular points of view. funny what a debate without all the bullshit can do eh


----------



## Ashcrapper (Jul 3, 2008)

would be interested to hear Mikes opinion on this, don't know how to do the quote thingie so he gets a notification


----------



## Suprakill4 (Jul 11, 2008)

Pscarb said:


> for me this part in bold closes the debate.....


Me too. Very well said Essexboy.


----------



## Bear2012 (Jan 19, 2012)

Had this discussion at length yesterday and shocked quite a few people when I said he was not a hero

If it were an old woman would she be a hero? No

Is he a hero for fighting for this country? No he decided to enlist, to get paid for a job he had chosen to do. Simple as that. These military people get paid just the same as any other person who works.

A hero for me is somebody who pulls a person from a car crash, the person who goes out of their way to help somebody else in spite of the danger to themselves. The person who administers first aid and saves somebody's life, the soldier who throws himself on a grenade to protect his friends, the fireman who rushes in to drag a person out of a burning wreck. That's bravery, heroism

What happened to Lee was and is horrendous but a hero for being murdered on the street because he was a soldier? No sorry just don't get it


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## Mr_Morocco (May 28, 2011)

@mikep81


----------



## GeordieSteve (May 23, 2010)

One that always got me was David Rathband. He didn't headbutt Raoul Moat's bullet away from a school of orphans. He was sat in his car not paying attention when it happened. How does that make him a hero? :\


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## Breda (May 2, 2011)

Mr_Morocco said:


> @mikep81


Why do that?

I dont know if I have the bandwidth to deal with his long ass posts


----------



## Fatstuff (Mar 2, 2010)

It's a shame he's died and yea he is a hero of sorts but i really don't like this fcukin stupid Facebook bandwagon bollox people who use his name on there who don't know him. They need a good fist fcuking !


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## Mr_Morocco (May 28, 2011)

Breda said:


> Why do that?
> 
> I dont know if I have the bandwidth to deal with his long ass posts


 :lol:


----------



## Fatstuff (Mar 2, 2010)

If he was blown up by an ied then u would of barely heard of him and would of had less people 'mourning him' but then he would of died for his job actually making him more of a hero to some.

Just how the stupid sheep are lol


----------



## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

L11 said:


> its a bit of a paradox though, the main reason extremists want to attack us in the first place is our occupation in "their" country


who's country was occupied before 9/11??



Mr_Morocco said:


> Think your getting mixed up with the Taliban and Al-Qeada, FYI theres more terrorists in Pakistan and Somalia then there is in Afghanistan. The Taliban were the ruling goverment in Afghanistan, we and the yanks actually armed them back in the day and even Bin Laden, apparently the Taliban were harbouring Bin Laden after 9/11 thats why we went to war but ive yet to see proof of this, also the war with Iraq was supposdly to protect us from WMD's which could be launced in 45 mins, which again proved to be bullsh!t.
> 
> Point is none of the above effects our day to day lives at all apart from f*cking up our economy spending billions on pointless wars.
> 
> If its a global issue shouldnt we be going to war with Pakistan/Somalia and other countries who contain known terrorists? What about Syria, if we are so drawn up on protecting freedom why are we not there helping the thousands of civillians killed each day?


i am not getting anything mixed up i know the difference between the Taliban and Al-Qeada so your saying that the taliban have not opened there borders in the past for terrorist training camps? this debate is not about a history lesson it is about a soldier who did his job he was asked to do by the British People (yes the British people as he was a member of the British Army) and because of this 2 muslim extremists decided be it planned or not to kill him does that mean all muslims are extremists of course not just as not all soldiers should be blamed for wars that where decided around a table a million miles away from them.........

this is the problem with these threads you always get those who want to give everyone a history lesson in what we and the yanks did years ago and normally make it out to be all our fault as if the Taliban are all innocent.......did i agree with the wars NO am i stupid enough to think that the soldiers who lay there lives on the line have any influence in the war to when it ends or it should or should not of happened....no..

so please deal with the question of the debate not a history lesson on the wars......


----------



## icamero1 (Jul 3, 2009)

Bear2012 said:


> Had this discussion at length yesterday and shocked quite a few people when I said he was not a hero
> 
> If it were an old woman would she be a hero? No
> 
> ...


----------



## Breda (May 2, 2011)

GeordieSteve said:


> One that always got me was David Rathband. He didn't headbutt Raoul Moat's bullet away from a school of orphans. He was sat in his car not paying attention when it happened. How does that make him a hero? :\


Because there's no real heros these days so bein shot in the face by a love sick pr**k makes the grade.

If bein shot or killed is the qualifying criteria for heroism then I know a few heros myself, or maybe its jus down to the uniform you wear to work


----------



## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

Fatstuff said:


> If he was blown up by an ied then u would of barely heard of him and would of had less people 'mourning him' but then he would of died for his job actually making him more of a hero to some.
> 
> Just how the stupid sheep are lol


no i think it was the fact it was in this country and the shock value to many that this can happen in our own country is the reason for the media coverage to be fair, i doubt anyone expected a serving soldier to be killed on the streets of Britain by Muslim Extremists on the front line yes but not the streets........i really think it just brought it home for many


----------



## Mr_Morocco (May 28, 2011)

Pscarb said:


> who's country was occupied before 9/11??
> 
> i am not getting anything mixed up i know the difference between the Taliban and Al-Qeada *so your saying that the taliban have not opened there borders in the past for terrorist training camps?* this debate is not about a history lesson it is about a soldier who did his job he was asked to do by the British People (yes the British people as he was a member of the British Army) and because of this 2 muslim extremists decided be it planned or not to kill him does that mean all muslims are extremists of course not just as *not all soldiers should be blamed for wars that where decided around a table a million miles away from them.........*
> 
> ...


I didnt say any of that, also your point about it being a global problem, answer my question at the end of my post


----------



## icamero1 (Jul 3, 2009)

agee with bear 2012

. im sure their are a lot of brave, heroic soldiers out there who go beyond the call of duty. but at the end of the day, it is just another job. I know lads who only joined the army because they had no other job prospects, and it was the onlt way they would get to travel to other countries, so I wouldnt neccessarally call them heroes because they go out and work in dangerouse places

A hero for me is somebody who pulls a person from a car crash, the person who goes out of their way to help somebody else in spite of the danger to themselves. The person who administers first aid and saves somebody's life, the soldier who throws himself on a grenade to protect his friends, the fireman who rushes in to drag a person out of a burning wreck. That's bravery, heroism

What happened to Lee was and is horrendous but a hero for being murdered on the street because he was a soldier? No sorry just don't get it


----------



## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

Mr_Morocco said:


> I didnt say any of that, also your point about it being a global problem, answer my question at the end of my post


the global problem i mentioned relates to the fact that the issue with Muslim Extremists and terrorism is a global problem hence the way of life (freedom, safety etc)


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## Ackee&amp;Saltfish (Mar 18, 2011)

From reading peoples posts its a case of people letting their emotions cloud their judgement.. is he a hero? Not to me but I dont see why he cant be that hero to his loved ones


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## Mr_Morocco (May 28, 2011)

icamero1 said:


> agee with bear 2012
> 
> . im sure their are a lot of brave, heroic soldiers out there who go beyond the call of duty. but at the end of the day, it is just another job. I know lads who only joined the army because they had no other job prospects, and it was the onlt way they would get to travel to other countries, so I wouldnt neccessarally call them heroes because they go out and work in dangerouse places
> 
> ...


Exactly, most the soldiers ive spoken to both american and british joined the army because they could get no other job, its just another paid job for them, i didnt speak to a single 1 who said they joined to protect their country and their countrys values, so what makes them hero's.


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## tamara (Sep 23, 2012)

L11 said:


> its a bit of a paradox though, the main reason extremists want to attack us in the first place is our occupation in "their" country


But but what about the extremists that were born here "their" country is the uk so why do they want to s.hit on their doorstep.


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## zack amin (Mar 13, 2012)

Breda said:


> Why do that?
> 
> I dont know if I have the bandwidth to deal with his long ass posts


This lol


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## TwoCanVanDamn (Jun 22, 2012)

Mr_Morocco said:


> This..
> 
> I dont see why hes a 'hero' hes a normal bloke, the army is a job he chose, he's not defending this country neither are the rest of the army by being in Afghanistan. I worked in Afghanistan for 12 months on the same bases they live on, am i a hero too


What? Fvcking camp bastion? Get a grip. Did you ever have to shoot anyone or stare down the barrel of an ak47 while you were out there?

Completely different to some of the situations these guys are dealing with day in day out.

And I know because I've served in the marines and been out in afghan twice in the little forward operating bases, where people get shot and blown up, it's an insult for someone like you to say the job you did is comparable to the job we did.

Saying that I don't consider myself or any of the other guys a hero unless they actually acted in valour to save anothers life whilst out there, which happened regularly I might add.

Show some respect


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## Breda (May 2, 2011)

tamara said:


> But but what about the extremists that were born here "their" country is the uk so why do they want to s.hit on their doorstep.


Because they dont see it as their country


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## Ashcrapper (Jul 3, 2008)

Mikey81 said:


> Because my friend you are questioning whether or not a dead soldier, someone who is prepared to lay his life on the line for this country, should be labelled a hero. When you have the balls to put yourself in the firing line and become a target for mindless terrorists just because he was a soldier then I may have some respect for what your saying.
> 
> Today is the lads funeral FFS who gives a flying fcuk if you think he was a hero or not. The majority of the country think he is.
> 
> *Lets have a poll on here to see how many people think your a cvnt or not!!!*


well firstly I never stated if I thought he was a hero or not, I just wanted peoples opinions. You notice most people managed to debate it like an adult and see that people have different points of view. Funnily enough my own perspective changed when reading peoples thoughts, that's what a debate can do you see.

As for your poll, go for it I frankly couldn't give a **** what strangers on the internet think about me


----------



## essexboy (Sep 7, 2008)

Breda said:


> Because they dont see it as their country


Careful mate.You know where this is heading.............


----------



## Mr_Morocco (May 28, 2011)

TwoCanVanDamn said:


> What? Fvcking camp bastion? Get a grip. *Did you ever have to shoot anyone or stare down the barrel of an ak47 while you were out there?*
> 
> Completely different to some of the situations these guys are dealing with day in day out.
> 
> ...


No i didnt, because i didnt chose to join the army.

Good for you that you were in those situations, it was your choice to do so.


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## 2004mark (Oct 26, 2013)

Ashcrapper said:


> dont see why this cant be a sensible debate


I agree, but...

With most things I always try see both sides of situations, and quite offer people perceive me to have a strong view one way or another, purely because I question their view, when in reality I would do the same to the person on the other side of the fence.

Not so long ago though I made a conscious decision not to do this when it comes to topics about Armed Forces, national pride... and let's face it, Islam as I'm sure this is a catalyst for some peoples stand point on those topics. It's not a case of my biting my tongue, more of a case of me just accepting, respecting and understanding peoples views (wherever they are on the spectrum)... it's just the way society works.

Anyway, back on topic. Is he personally a hero, I don't know, he might have acted heroically on many occasions so I can't say he's not. I understand though that people will see him as some sort of figurehead for national pride which thus makes him a hero.


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## essexboy (Sep 7, 2008)

Ashcrapper said:


> well firstly I never stated if I thought he was a hero or not, I just wanted peoples opinions. You notice most people managed to debate it like an adult and see that people have different points of view. Funnily enough my own perspective changed when reading peoples thoughts, that's what a debate can do you see.
> 
> As for your poll, go for it I frankly couldn't give a **** what strangers on the internet think about me


Pointless poll anyway.We all know Ashys a c.unt anyway.


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## latblaster (Oct 26, 2013)

Mikey81 said:


> Because my friend you are questioning whether or not a dead soldier, someone who is prepared to lay his life on the line for this country, should be labelled a hero. When you have the balls to put yourself in the firing line and become a target for mindless terrorists just because he was a soldier then I may have some respect for what your saying.
> 
> Today is the lads funeral FFS who gives a flying fcuk if you think he was a hero or not. The majority of the country think he is.
> 
> Lets have a poll on here to see how many people think your a cvnt or not!!!


Poll of One: Ashcrapper is not a ****

Try re reading what Ash said at the start of the thread. Then apologise.


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## latblaster (Oct 26, 2013)

Only sometimes.

:lol:


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## Ashcrapper (Jul 3, 2008)

essexboy said:


> Pointless poll anyway.We all know Ashys a c.unt anyway.





latblaster said:


> Poll of One: Ashcrapper is not a ****
> 
> Try re reading what Ash said at the start of the thread. Then apologise.


oh I am :lol:


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## Mr_Morocco (May 28, 2011)

Tbh Ashcrapper is a cvnt


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## 2004mark (Oct 26, 2013)

Ashcrapper said:


> well firstly I never stated if I thought he was a hero or not, I just wanted peoples opinions. You notice most people managed to debate it like an adult and see that people have different points of view. Funnily enough my own perspective changed when reading peoples thoughts, that's what a debate can do you see.
> 
> As for your poll, go for it I frankly couldn't give a **** what strangers on the internet think about me


Ha... the precise reason why I tend not to debate such topics. People have such strong opinions that the brain becomes disengaged... and that's not an insult to the guy, I'm actually glad we have people with such views. Just shows how emotive it can be.


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## latblaster (Oct 26, 2013)

Ashcrapper said:


> oh I am :lol:


And such a beast sometimes.... :whistling:


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## Ashcrapper (Jul 3, 2008)

Looking back, it was unfair to use Lee's name for this topic, as the more I think about it this is about soldiers in general. If its causing offence or people think its disrespectful having his name up there in the title I'm happy for it to be changed.


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## Ashcrapper (Jul 3, 2008)

Mikey81 said:


> Nah the mere fact that he started this thread asking the question if a dead soldier is a hero or not makes him a cvnt in my book.
> 
> End of my input


no probs mate, we can agree to disagree. I'll refrain from calling you a **** though


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## Davie L (Jun 29, 2013)

hotchy said:


> Every single person in the armed forces who goes out risking there own life's for us is a hero.


This man is 100% correct!!!


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## TwoCanVanDamn (Jun 22, 2012)

Mr_Morocco said:


> No i didnt, because i didnt chose to join the army.
> 
> Good for you that you were in those situations, it was your choice to do so.


No it wasn't 'good for me' as you put it but my case in point is you don't know what the fvck your talking about with regards to being in Afghanistan, you may aswell have been in LA. What you did is nothing like what some of these people are doing.

Back to the question, no he's not a hero to me, as far as I know he's not done anything heroic to speak of. The only people in the armed forces who are heros are people who's actions have directly saved lives, thing is what with all the terrorism in the world, maybe being over there has prevented attacks on these shores. None of you guys have any idea in reality, as do I.

Done with this thread now anyway. Pointless really IMO. It's a debate yes, but not really achieving anything.

Rip to the lad anyway. Died to young


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## onthebuild (Sep 3, 2011)

EVERYBODY is a hero to somebody. Was he a hero? I'm sure many thought so. And nobody can take that away from him.


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## mikep81 (Oct 8, 2010)

I think the first thing to understand is that no soldier thinks of themselves as a hero. I know one in particular for example who's mum refers to him as a hero as he was awarded a commendation for saving some lives during a hostile engagement and he cringes every time.

Secondly the labelling if him as a hero isn't, or hasn't as far as I've seen, ever been anything other than people's own interpretations. Something g I always harp on about was put very well by a friend of mine and by my 9 year old stepdaughter last year. My mate said that to him "all soldiers are heroes for even volunteering to serve, knowing what they may face. Because I don't have the balls to do that sort of job and if they didn't volunteer we'd have conscription. And fvck that"! My daughter had a heroes day at school and she wanted to go as a soldier and had to write a little essay about why her choice is a hero. I can't remember exactly how she said it (i'll try and find it later) but she basically said the same thing. She said soldiers are heroes because if the bad men ever come to this country then soldiers will fight them so that I don't get killed and some soldiers get killed fighting bad men and they don't have to do it.

Anyway no-one should be offended by soldiers being regarded as heroes. It's a choice afforded by many that have died. Likewise no-one should be offended by people questioning (in a respectful way) why people think of soldiers as heroes. One thing I do think though is that all serving soldiers in countries where there is no conscription deserve a bit of respect. Because without them, it could be you being sent out, against your will, to some **** hole to do the governments work!


----------



## mikep81 (Oct 8, 2010)

Breda said:


> Why do that?
> 
> I dont know if I have the bandwidth to deal with his long ass posts


I'm hurt!!


----------



## Breda (May 2, 2011)

mikep81 said:


> I'm hurt!!


I'm sorry but you do write some long ass posts


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## mikep81 (Oct 8, 2010)

Breda said:


> Because they dont see it as their country


The very two that killed Drummer Rigby were talking about withdrawing "our troops" and "our politicians" which would suggest that in this particular case they may have seen this as their country. You do make a good point though for the majority of extremists!


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## tamara (Sep 23, 2012)

One thing I've learnt on here is to never enter a discussion about religion or politics. I have a healthy respect for everyone in the armed forces. I remember being in the millennium stadium last year with my mate watching Wales Australia in the rugby and there were marines there, I said to one "can we have a photo?" and he went to take my phone to take the picture but I was like no we want a photo of you! He blushed but obliged, he was cute and to me I saw him as a hero so treated him like one!


----------



## latblaster (Oct 26, 2013)

Mikey81 said:


> Nah the mere fact that he started this thread asking the question if a dead soldier is a hero or not makes him a cvnt in my book.
> 
> End of my input


So asking a question that you don't like, makes someone a ****. Wow

Life is full of uncomfortable questions & choices.


----------



## Ashcrapper (Jul 3, 2008)

tamara said:


> One thing I've learnt on here is to never enter a discussion about religion or politics. I have a healthy respect for everyone in the armed forces. I remember being in the millennium stadium last year with my mate watching Wales Australia in the rugby and there were marines there, I said to one "can we have a photo?" and he went to take my phone to take the picture but I was like no we want a photo of you! He blushed but obliged, he was cute and to me I saw him as a hero so treated him like one!


did you ask him how big his cock was?


----------



## L11 (Jan 21, 2011)

mikep81 said:


> The very two that killed Drummer Rigby were talking about withdrawing "our troops" and "our politicians" which would suggest that in this particular case they may have seen this as their country. You do make a good point though for the majority of extremists!


You must've watched a different video






"In our land our people have to see the same"

"Remove your goverments, they dont care about you"

p.s to everyone that responded to me, you all brought up great points but theres so many I really can't be bothered to go back now and respond to them all! But seriously, great debate.


----------



## Ashcrapper (Jul 3, 2008)

latblaster said:


> So asking a question that you don't like, makes someone a ****. Wow
> 
> Life is full of uncomfortable questions & choices.


to be fair to him this is a very touchy subject so was always going to get the odd insult thrown in and as said I shouldnt have really made the thread about Lee, its more soldiers in general


----------



## tamara (Sep 23, 2012)

Ashcrapper said:


> did you ask him how big his cock was?


No, I'd shag a marine purely for being a marine.


----------



## frenchpress (Nov 22, 2012)

Mikey81 said:


> Because my friend you are questioning whether or not a dead soldier, someone who is prepared to lay his life on the line for this country, should be labelled a hero. When you have the balls* to put yourself in the firing line *and become a target for mindless terrorists just because he was a soldier then I may have some respect for what your saying.
> 
> Today is the lads funeral FFS who gives a flying fcuk if you think he was a hero or not. The majority of the country think he is.
> 
> Lets have a poll on here to see how many people think your a cvnt or not!!!


The flipside of this is that the 'terrorists' don't choose to have British soldiers in their country!


----------



## Bear2012 (Jan 19, 2012)

Davie L said:


> This man is 100% correct!!!


Sorry total crap.

I travel to dangerous countries aboard one of the un-safest modes of transport to make sure you people have heat and fuel for your cars risking my life? Do I f**k I do it for the money its as simple as that. Nobody goes out to take a bullet its a career that takes them round the world earning money.


----------



## Ashcrapper (Jul 3, 2008)

tamara said:


> No, I'd shag a marine purely for being a marine.


  you are great


----------



## Breda (May 2, 2011)

mikep81 said:


> The very two that killed Drummer Rigby were talking about withdrawing "our troops" and "our politicians" which would suggest that in this particular case they may have seen this as their country. You do make a good point though for the majority of extremists!


If thats the case for them to be talkin about our this and our that the only conclusion I can come to is that they are stupid because they would have murdered for something that they dont see as "theirs" in the first place


----------



## Ackee&amp;Saltfish (Mar 18, 2011)

tamara said:


> No, I'd shag a marine purely for being a marine.


----------



## lukeee (Aug 17, 2009)

mikep81 said:


> I think the first thing to understand is that no soldier thinks of themselves as a hero. I know one in particular for example who's mum refers to him as a hero as he was awarded a commendation for saving some lives during a hostile engagement and he cringes every time.
> 
> Secondly the labelling if him as a hero isn't, or hasn't as far as I've seen, ever been anything other than people's own interpretations. Something g I always harp on about was put very well by a friend of mine and by my 9 year old stepdaughter last year. My mate said that to him "all soldiers are heroes for even volunteering to serve, knowing what they may face. Because I don't have the balls to do that sort of job and if they didn't volunteer we'd have conscription. And fvck that"! My daughter had a heroes day at school and she wanted to go as a soldier and had to write a little essay about why her choice is a hero. I can't remember exactly how she said it (i'll try and find it later) but she basically said the same thing. She said soldiers are heroes because if the bad men ever come to this country then soldiers will fight them so that I don't get killed and some soldiers get killed fighting bad men and they don't have to do it.
> 
> Anyway no-one should be offended by soldiers being regarded as heroes. It's a choice afforded by many that have died. Likewise no-one should be offended by people questioning (in a respectful way) why people think of soldiers as heroes. One thing I do think though is that all serving soldiers in countries where there is no conscription deserve a bit of respect. Because without them, it could be you being sent out, against your will, to some **** hole to do the governments work!


To do the governments work!!

That's the bit that bothers me, our governments should hang their heads in shame for sending our soldiers (and they are 'our' soldiers, they protect us as that's what they are for and they obey orders as without orders there would be bedlam).

its not their fault we have allowed poxy politicians to make these decisions to send them to war on our behalf (yeah right) to countries far away to find non existent weapons of mass destruction, to fight afghan warlords and basically police the world.

We should be proud of them, whether we regard them as heros is neither here nor there, its about respecting the soldiers and being proud of them for standing up and being willing to fight for us!

Id like to punch Blair in the face full pelt for everyone of our soldiers that has not only died in Iraq etc but everyone of them that he put at risk for no good reason!!


----------



## L11 (Jan 21, 2011)

Bear2012 said:


> Sorry total crap.
> 
> I travel to dangerous countries aboard one of the un-safest modes of transport to make sure you people have heat and fuel for your cars risking my life? Do I f**k I do it for the money its as simple as that. Nobody goes out to take a bullet its a career that takes them round the world earning money.


Basically. I guarantee less than 1% of soldiers would do it for free. Even if it was free accommodation, food, electricity etc on base.


----------



## mikep81 (Oct 8, 2010)

L11 said:


> You must've watched a different video
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No you're partly right yes. It's only the soldiers they referred to as "our".


----------



## mikep81 (Oct 8, 2010)

L11 said:


> Basically. I guarantee less than 1% of soldiers would do it for free. Even if it was free accommodation, food, electricity etc on base.


No one would do any job for free. The difference with soldiers and an army is that if people didn't volunteer then soldiers would have to do it for free if need be, because we'd have conscription, like many other countries still do.


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## L11 (Jan 21, 2011)

mikep81 said:


> No one would do any job for free. .


http://www.do-it.org.uk/

"Do-it. Volunteering made easy"

Pretty sure that website and the thousands of other volunteer/charity workers would disagree.


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## mikep81 (Oct 8, 2010)

lukeee said:


> To do the governments work!!
> 
> That's the bit that bothers me, our governments should hang their heads in shame for sending our soldiers (and they are 'our' soldiers, they protect us as that's what they are for and they obey orders as without orders there would be bedlam).
> 
> ...


Yeah, I partly agree. Having served in Iraq twice I can hand on my heart say that Saddam needed to be removed. We fvcked it up big time I'll admit, but some of the sh1t that he pulled on his own people was not good. Same with the Taliban, in fact they were worse. The problem with Iraq in particular is the insurgents. All the while we were there they were apparently freedom fighters, fighting against the occupational west. "Leave our country and the fighting will stop. We just want to be left alone" they all said. And what happened, we've pretty much left and they're now just killing each other instead!! Speaking if Iraq as well and something not many may know, but Muqtada Al Sadr (the leader of the biggest insurgency uprising against the coalition in Iraq and now a legitimate political figure) condemned the killing of Drummer Rigby!


----------



## Breda (May 2, 2011)

Mikey81 said:


> More a fact I find it disrespectful to even question it the day of the guys funeral. As someone put earlier if his family and others find comfort in calling him a hero so be it.
> 
> Not really a subject I feel is in need of discussion when a solider is murdered on our streets but hey ho.


People die every day, its not a taboo subject just because he was front page and international news


----------



## Ashcrapper (Jul 3, 2008)

Mikey81 said:


> More a fact I find it disrespectful to even question it the day of the guys funeral. As someone put earlier if his family and others find comfort in calling him a hero so be it.
> 
> Not really a subject I feel is in need of discussion when a solider is murdered on our streets but hey ho.


I actually saw your point the more I thought about it, I've asked if a mod can change the thread title to not specifically be about Lee


----------



## 2004mark (Oct 26, 2013)

L11 said:


> Basically. I guarantee less than 1% of soldiers would do it for free. Even if it was free accommodation, food, electricity etc on base.


I've actually got a mate who was in Afgan for 4 months with the TA, granted he got paid, but that wasn't the reason he went out at all. I'm not a solider or anything to do with armed forces, but if I could leave my business and come back in 3-6 months time with no adverse effects I'd go on tour with the Army, RAF or Navy for no pay (not presuming I would come back mind)... I mean, what an experience it would be.


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## Ashcrapper (Jul 3, 2008)

Mikey81 said:


> A moe sensible approach


see my previous post...


----------



## L11 (Jan 21, 2011)

mikep81 said:


> Yeah, I partly agree. Having served in Iraq twice I can hand on my heart say that Saddam needed to be removed. We fvcked it up big time I'll admit, but some of the sh1t that he pulled on his own people was not good. Same with the Taliban, in fact they were worse.


Mugabe's pretty f*cked aswell but we dont seem to want to remove him for some reason... I'm not going to pretend I understand why (everyone will say oil), just putting it out there..



2004mark said:


> I've actually got a mate who was in Afgan for 4 months with the TA, granted he got paid, but that wasn't the reason he went out at all. I'm not a solider or anything to do with armed forces, but if I could leave my business and come back in 3-6 months time with no adverse effects I'd go on tour with the Army, RAF or Navy for no pay (not presuming I would come back mind)... I mean, what an experience it would be.


Of course some people would do it, but i still stand by my "Less than 1%" estimation.


----------



## L11 (Jan 21, 2011)

Ashcrapper said:


> I actually saw your point the more I thought about it, I've asked if a mod can change the thread title to not specifically be about Lee


I don't think you should have to change a thread title just because some people can't have an intelligent debate.


----------



## mikep81 (Oct 8, 2010)

L11 said:


> http://www.do-it.org.uk/
> 
> "Do-it. Volunteering made easy"
> 
> Pretty sure that website and the thousands of other volunteer/charity workers would disagree.


Charity work is hardly comparable to military life or a normal job is it! Just to clarify as it seems it was too difficult to grasp, charity work aside (where people are directly helping others) nobody would do any day to day job for free. Playing along with your pedantic comment though, one could argue that if people are willing to do charity work for free then maybe people would be willing to join the army for free!!!


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## L11 (Jan 21, 2011)

mikep81 said:


> Charity work is hardly comparable to military life or a normal job is it! Just to clarify as it seems it was too difficult to grasp, charity work aside (where people are directly helping others) nobody would do any day to day job for free. Playing along with your pedantic comment though, one could argue that if people are willing to do charity work for free then maybe people would be willing to join the army for free!!!





L11 said:


> Of course some people would do it, but i still stand by my "Less than 1%" estimation.


----------



## Ashcrapper (Jul 3, 2008)

L11 said:


> I don't think you should have to change a thread title just because some people can't have an intelligent debate.


I actually agree with him though, its the funeral today which is obviously why it was in my mind and the reason I posted. I think for the title to single him out when in reality I'm actually talking about soldiers in general is wrong and in hindsight I'm not altogether comfortable with it.

My question definitely still stands though although my position on it has shifted a touch


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## Breda (May 2, 2011)

Mikey81 said:


> Didn't say it was taboo just feel it's disrespectful and in the light of day ash has realised the point I was making and changed the title to a more appropriate one


I never said you did say it was taboo mate. If you know Mr Rigby then fair dues if not I think you are bein a bit sensitive because I domt think anybody else saw any disrespect towards him in this thread.

Dont matter tho


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## Mr_Morocco (May 28, 2011)

mikep81 said:


> Yeah, I partly agree. Having served in Iraq twice I can hand on my heart say that Saddam needed to be removed. We fvcked it up big time I'll admit, but some of the sh1t that he pulled on his own people was not good. Same with the Taliban, in fact they were worse. The problem with Iraq in particular is the insurgents. All the while we were there they were apparently freedom fighters, fighting against the occupational west. "Leave our country and the fighting will stop. We just want to be left alone" they all said. And what happened, we've pretty much left and they're now just killing each other instead!! Speaking if Iraq as well and something not many may know, but Muqtada Al Sadr (the leader of the biggest insurgency uprising against the coalition in Iraq and now a legitimate political figure) condemned the killing of Drummer Rigby!


There are ALOT worse dictatorships out there, Zimbabwe, Somalia, Syria to name a few, its double standards if people claim we went to iraq to help the people by removing saddam


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## mikep81 (Oct 8, 2010)

L11 said:


> Mugabe's pretty f*cked aswell but we dont seem to want to remove him for some reason... I'm not going to pretend I understand why (everyone will say oil), just putting it out there..
> 
> Of course some people would do it, but i still stand by my "Less than 1%" estimation.


True about Mugabe, but we've also spent a lot helping the Frenchies out in Africa. Plus we simply do not have the man power to commit to any further operations at the moment. Now, if when we are fully out of Afghan and Iraq we decide not to help other countries out then yes, that will definitely show probable ulterior motives for the current conflicts. It's too early to say right now, what about this country and that country because we're simply too thinly stretched.


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## mikep81 (Oct 8, 2010)

Mr_Morocco said:


> There are ALOT worse dictatorships out there, Zimbabwe, Somalia, Syria to name a few, its double standards if people claim we went to iraq to help the people by removing saddam


See my post above.


----------



## 2004mark (Oct 26, 2013)

mikep81 said:


> True about Mugabe, but we've also spent a lot helping the Frenchies out in Africa. Plus we simply do not have the man power to commit to any further operations at the moment. Now, if when we are fully out of Afghan and Iraq we decide not to help other countries out then yes, that will definitely show probable ulterior motives for the current conflicts. It's too early to say right now, what about this country and that country because we're simply too thinly stretched.


I'm also pretty sure the way our foreign policy is interpreted and acted up on isn't quite the same it was pre-Iraq either tbh.


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## frenchpress (Nov 22, 2012)

Mr_Morocco said:


> There are ALOT worse dictatorships out there, Zimbabwe, Somalia, Syria to name a few, its double standards if people claim we went to iraq to help the people by removing saddam


Problem with Zimbabwe is that everyone ran away! The whites went to Nambia, SA etc, and the black professionals came here. Plenty of Zmbabwean cleaners and HCAs in the NHS that were qualified doctors in Zimbabwe. Its not like Iraq where the people who have lived there for 100s of years want to stay there, and it doesn't really have the same ethno-religious groupings either. And there aren't any terrorists there who want to interfere with the west either.

Syria was a happy dictatorship (by and large) and the American and Quatari backed rebels are tearing it apart.

Somalia is similar to Zimbabwe in that lots of people just 'disappear' around the world and don't go back.


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## Southern Karate Guy (Feb 27, 2014)

Ashcrapper said:


> When I look at people who served in the armed forces, I consider those who fought in WW1 and 2 heroes. Not sure I class people like Lee Rigby as one.
> 
> This is by no means trying to disrespect him in any way before anyone starts acting like a minge, I am genuinely curious about peoples thoughts, I don't think anyone can say there is a definitive answer, it is all down to your own interpretation.
> 
> It's not a job I would choose to do but at the end of the day it is a job and one he chose to do. If he is a hero as such, are nurses and firemen? If not why not? They save lives.


A lot of brave men and women gave there lives so we can have these kinds of discussions without the fear of people kicking our doors in in the night and making us vanish ,you wouldn't have got away with this in jolly old russia, china or north korea.

Its more the fact that in time of war like the Falklands its the soldiers who go and die for us , so we can moan about how tough we have it at home.


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## Mish (May 1, 2011)

tamara said:


> No, I'd shag a marine purely for being a marine.


Confirming my point made yesterday.


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## Mr_Morocco (May 28, 2011)

mikep81 said:


> True about Mugabe, but we've also spent a lot helping the Frenchies out in Africa. Plus we simply do not have the man power to commit to any further operations at the moment. Now, if when we are fully out of Afghan and Iraq we decide not to help other countries out then yes, that will definitely show probable ulterior motives for the current conflicts. It's too early to say right now, what about this country and that country because we're simply too thinly stretched.


Can you honestly see the goverment pulling out of iraq/afghan and then going to africa or syria, i doubt it very much


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## latblaster (Oct 26, 2013)

Mikey81 said:



> More a fact I find it disrespectful to even question it the day of the guys funeral. As someone put earlier if his family and others find comfort in calling him a hero so be it.
> 
> Not really a subject I feel is in need of discussion when a solider is murdered on our streets but hey ho.


Oh now I understand...we can only discuss certain things on certain days, & not ask questions that you don't like.

Can you give me a list of these things, I'd be very interested to read them. In an attempt to understand, just why you need to insult someone so openly for asking a question?

Do you have any views on Censorship? Or will I be called c*nt for asking that, as it challenges your thinking?


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## ASOC5 (Jun 10, 2011)

Mr_Morocco said:


> Think your getting mixed up with the Taliban and Al-Qeada, FYI theres more terrorists in Pakistan and Somalia then there is in Afghanistan. The Taliban were the ruling goverment in Afghanistan, we and the yanks actually armed them back in the day and even Bin Laden, apparently the Taliban were harbouring Bin Laden after 9/11 thats why we went to war but ive yet to see proof of this, also the war with Iraq was supposdly to protect us from WMD's which could be launced in 45 mins, which again proved to be bullsh!t.
> 
> Point is none of the above effects our day to day lives at all apart from f*cking up our economy spending billions on pointless wars.
> 
> If its a global issue shouldnt we be going to war with Pakistan/Somalia and other countries who contain known terrorists? What about Syria, if we are so drawn up on protecting freedom why are we not there helping the thousands of civillians killed each day?


Wars dont **** up economies wars are great for economies the world wars lifted america out of the great depression they stimulate employment directly and indirectly in the forces and supporting areas such as manufacturing yes the government spends enormous amounts of money but its within our economy on the whole for supplies and equipment.

There is no better time for a war than in an economic downturn.


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## TryingToGetBig (May 20, 2010)

Mr_Morocco said:


> Can you honestly see the goverment pulling out of iraq/afghan and then going to africa or syria, i doubt it very much


Yes


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## TryingToGetBig (May 20, 2010)

I think everyone's opinion on what makes a hero is different, eg in USA every military person is classed as a hero even us British ones. When I went to sea world we got a free pass with 'hero pass' on it. And before the whale show they do a tribute video and all the military stand up. I personally think thats a bit much but it was nice to feel appreciated.

I don't agree people join the army just for a job and the money, think about how many people are unemployed or say there is no jobs, I think you need to be a certain type of person to join.

To answer the ops question, are soldiers heros,

IMO everyones a hero in someone's eyes regardless of what you do.


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## Skye666 (Apr 13, 2013)

..well hasn't that been a great read....NOT!! Bit uncomfortable actually some of the comments but speaking as a mum of a serving soldier and infact one who was a few feet from this guy when he was killed one who served with him and lived in the very same quarters as him..I'm not going to get into the politics of it coz its clear what my view is...of course these boys choose this career but none can be prepared for some things they see. There's a garage across from the barracks which all the soldiers use for food when the kitchens closed, it's clear they knew he was a soldier. @L11 some of what u say just doesn't sit we'll with me, there's more to ur points than meets the eye but ur being clever how u express them. as for the video and u highlighting the bits that suit u, i see what ur getting at however....lets not forget he also states ' eye for an eye and tooth for tooth, nobody is stupid enough to think this isnt directed at soldiers stop making out it wasnt. As for the rest of the rubbish re hero and how some think ' only if u saved someone from a car crash , a fire etc' ......wtf...do u not think these guys haven't tried to get another soldier who has been shot, or had half his face blown away on to a stretcher and into an aircraft which is a task in itself whilst still being shot at?? The guy on the floor may not in ur eyes deserve hero...but he will without doubt in Iraq or afghan have had to be involved in helping one of his own. These guys don't ask to be called heros they hate it but our country label them that.. And hell yes my son IS a hero!!!!


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## essexboy (Sep 7, 2008)

lukeee said:


> To do the governments work!!
> 
> That's the bit that bothers me, our governments should hang their heads in shame for sending our soldiers (and they are 'our' soldiers, they protect us as that's what they are for and they obey orders as without orders there would be bedlam).
> 
> ...


Luke too late mate.Im having him first, and he wont have much of a face left to punch.


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## gycraig (Oct 5, 2008)

its a job they choose to do, got friends in the military majority did it purely because they got sick of being unemployed.

my mum got robbed at knife point working in a bookies is she a hero?. i got robbed at knife point delivering pizzas does it make me a hero?.

iv taken a good beating stopping my mate get stamped to death does it make me a hero?.

there not protecting our country, it disgusts me how my mates lives are being risked at the whims of politicians who wouldnt solicit these wars if there was even a 5% chance any of them might have to go out and do the dirty work themselves.

yes soldiers take risks in there jobs, but a lot of jobs are dangerous/have risks.


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## L11 (Jan 21, 2011)

Skye666 said:


> @L11 some of what u say just doesn't sit we'll with me, there's more to ur points than meets the eye but ur being clever how u express them. as for the video and u highlighting the bits that suit u, i see what ur getting at however....lets not forget he also states ' eye for an eye and tooth for tooth, nobody is stupid enough to think this isnt directed at soldiers stop making out it wasnt.


Not sure if that was a compliment. If you read the thread, I didn't bring up the subject of the video, that was someone else. I only posted it to highlight that he'd misquoted it and completely invalidated that part of his argument.

On another note, if they don't ask to be called heroes, or regard themselves as heroes. Then whats the problem with me not considering them heroes?


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## Laurieloz (Apr 8, 2013)

hotchy said:


> Every single person in the armed forces who goes out risking there own life's for us is a hero.


There's absolutely no reason for me to read any further than this third thread post:thumbup1:


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## KRIS_B (Apr 17, 2011)

Well I'm in the army mate and fcuk yea were heroes. We go on tour with no questions asked , killing an almost invisible enemy who in turn hate our country and if they had the capability would come and invade .Any soldier who's died in the fight or in the name of this country should be respected. It takes a certain individual to be willing and prepared to put up with the sh1t that we do yes it's personal choice to join but we are proud to do what we do and serve (well I am anyway)


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## KRSOne (Jul 31, 2011)

L11 said:


> This is where half the forum is going to turn on me BUT...
> 
> How exactly is going out to Afghanistan/Iraq/Libya to kill in order to liberate *their* people risking their life for me??
> 
> If we had a war on home soil and my friends and family and country were in danger, then I'd be the first to praise all the people that protected *us*. I'd actually seriously consider joining the army.


they are not doing it for us, but for bent politicians and leaders. A lot of the people in the forces I know hate the sh!t they are dragged into, but go nonetheless because its their job. Risking their lives for causes they dont believe in makes them heros. Dying for a cause you are told to die deserves them respect and acknowledgement, that many people dont seem to give them


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## Skye666 (Apr 13, 2013)

L11 said:


> Not sure if that was a compliment. If you read the thread, I didn't bring up the subject of the video, that was someone else. I only posted it to highlight that he'd misquoted it and completely invalidated that part of his argument.
> 
> On another note, if they don't ask to be called heroes, or regard themselves as heroes. Then whats the problem with me not considering them heroes?


If ur not sure if its a compliment then its as ambiguous as ur comments I guess.

I don't have a problem with u not thinking they are not heroes its each to own on that ( I made that comment ref to ppl only considering it heroic to save a life...which they do with each other)


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## L11 (Jan 21, 2011)

KRIS_B said:


> killing an almost invisible enemy who in turn hate our country and if they had the capability would come and invade .


Come on now..

Why the f*ck would they want to invade us?

Seriously..?


----------



## TryingToGetBig (May 20, 2010)

L11 said:


> Come on now..
> 
> Why the f*ck would they want to invade us?
> 
> Seriously..?


They are invading us,


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## L11 (Jan 21, 2011)

TryingToGetBig said:


> They are invading us,


Care to elaborate?

edit* Ohhhh you mean immigration?


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## Dr Manhattan (Jan 8, 2012)

KRSOne said:


> they are not doing it for us, but for bent politicians and leaders. A lot of the people in the forces I know hate the sh!t they are dragged into, but go nonetheless because its their job. *Risking their lives for causes they dont believe in makes them heros. *Dying for a cause you are told to die deserves them respect and acknowledgement, that many people dont seem to give them


See, to me, rather than make them a hero, it makes them a mindless pawn.


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## L11 (Jan 21, 2011)

Dr Manhattan said:


> See, to me, rather than make them a hero, it makes them a mindless pawn.


Tried to rep you for that but UK-M told me off.


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## TryingToGetBig (May 20, 2010)

L11 said:


> Care to elaborate?
> 
> edit* Ohhhh you mean immigration?


Yer sure,

Quote from dictionary

definition of an invasion

1. an instance of invading a country or region with an armed force:

Napoleon's disastrous invasion of Russia in 1812

[mass noun]:

2. an incursion by a large number of people or things into a place or sphere of activity:

there was a brief pitch invasion when Sunderland scored

3. an unwelcome intrusion into another's domain:

random drug testing of employees is an unwarranted invasion of privacy

I think number 2 explains it best for you.

Ps I didn't write the dictionary, I just quoted it


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## Dr Manhattan (Jan 8, 2012)

L11 said:


> Care to elaborate?
> 
> edit* Ohhhh you mean immigration?


This is going to head to Muslamic Ray Guns!


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## Dr Manhattan (Jan 8, 2012)

TryingToGetBig said:


> Yer sure,
> 
> Quote from dictionary
> 
> ...


So then people going on holiday would be invaders? Rather than tourists?


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## L11 (Jan 21, 2011)

TryingToGetBig said:


> 2. an incursion by a large number of people or things into a place or sphere of activity:
> 
> there was a brief pitch invasion when Sunderland scored


in·cur·sion [in-kur-zhuhn, -shuhn]

noun

1.

a hostile entrance into or invasion of a place or territory, especially a sudden one; raid: The bandits made brief incursions on the village.

2.

a harmful inroad.

3.

a running in: the incursion of sea water.

I don't think either of those really describe the nature of immigration.

P.s I didn't write the dictionary, I'm just a smug c*nt that quotes it when I can't elaborate on my own point.


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## Paisleylad (Jan 22, 2013)

So basically taking all the posturing away its basically down to the individual who they see as a "hero".

Seeing his little boy on news today with the tshirt saying "my daddy the hero" was painfull to watch.

To the people that mattered most to Lee Rigby he is their hero and im pretty sure our views wouldnt even have registered.

Rest In Peace young man


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## JonnyBoy81 (Jun 26, 2013)

jesus christ - head in hands moment @ this thread. (an ex soldier)


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## KRSOne (Jul 31, 2011)

Dr Manhattan said:


> See, to me, rather than make them a hero, it makes them a mindless pawn.


surely we all are pawns to exploit? through tax, through military etc.

just because they risk their lives for the country doesnt make them any more accountable for the governments actions than ourselves


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## TryingToGetBig (May 20, 2010)

Dr Manhattan said:


> So then people going on holiday would be invaders? Rather than tourists?


No tourists go home, also tourists don't try and change the country they travel to into the one they left.

If its hard for you I could post a link to the dictionary, you can look up tourist and invasion to see the difference.


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## IGotTekkers (Jun 6, 2012)

This is a really dodgey subject, i dont want to put across my views, but i shall.

I dont believe that going into the forces automaticaly makes you a hero. I went to sign up for the army when i lived in bristol, i wasnt going to sign up to be a hero, i was going because there was fook all else for me to do and i was going nowhere with my life, had no money, no family around, no friends, i was starving, and pretty much just wanted something or somebody to take control of my life and give me a direction and a good hot meal. luck had it that i have too many medical problems and the guy at the recruitment office said i wouldnt pass the medical, so i moved back to kent and enjoyed my freedom. This is the case for many of the people that go into the forces, if you go to the USA the recruitment officers TARGET young men in troubled and poor areas and recruit them. because they know they have no other prospects. Is it any wonder that alot of the US troops are thick as **** and cant tell the difference between an enemy and a comrade, and have a "yeaahhh buddy i dropped a bomb on their ass" kind of attitude. Nobody in the british forces is defending their country, and hasnt done in a bloody long time. and any "liberation" of any other nation that our good government chooses to impose is done for the governments own benefit ie oil, or to make money from the shares they have in the arms and security companies. the forces is a job and like all other jobs and like all other jobs that are carried out by normal civilains there are indeed hero's. IMO a soldier that is shot dead while walking round some deserted blown up villiage in afghanistan is no more a hero than a guy that falls off a scaffolding on a building site. However if said guy died while saving a goup of kids from building under attack, or stood in the way of gunfire to save somebody, then sure, they are a hero and should be recognised as such. just like the guy that walked under the man falling from the scaffolding to soften his fall.

but i know that this is a really difficult concept for some people to understand, and no doubt when i get home ill have 20 quotes and as many negs


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## Dr Manhattan (Jan 8, 2012)

KRSOne said:


> surely we all are pawns to exploit? through tax, through military etc.
> 
> just because they risk their lives for the country doesnt make them any more accountable for the governments actions than ourselves


I agree to an extent. But there are ways to limit the extent to which you are a pawn. Just personally, it doesn't make someone a hero to me just before they fight for their 'Country'.

I have more respect for someone who fights for their true beliefs. But to be honest, I'd suspect 99% of frontline soldiers don't give it that much thought as to why they are truly somewhere and why they are being told to do what they do.

It's just not heroic for me personally. More naive.


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## Skinny Guy (Jul 24, 2011)

I suppose it depends on if you agree with what we are fighting for.


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## TryingToGetBig (May 20, 2010)

L11 said:


> in·cur·sion [in-kur-zhuhn, -shuhn]
> 
> noun
> 
> ...


Who was on about immigration? I never mentioned it.


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## Dr Manhattan (Jan 8, 2012)

TryingToGetBig said:


> No tourists go home, also tourists don't try and change the country they travel to into the one they left.
> 
> If its hard for you I could post a link to the dictionary, you can look up tourist and invasion to see the difference.


I was only going off example two that you used to try to express your point.

But that would be useful if you could post those links. While you're at it, you might want to post one for immigration as well so you can see the difference there too


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## Skye666 (Apr 13, 2013)

Breda said:


> If his murder didnt go down the way it did and make front page news with all the hype nobody would even know his name.
> 
> Do I look up to him?
> 
> ...


Who said a hero is someone who u look up to or aspire to be like??

he was killed in cold blood with no means to protect himself by 2 men who wanted revenge who sat in a car and waited for what could have been any soldier but not any person ( they knew what they were looking for) it was also hardly mindless with a view to that.


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## KRSOne (Jul 31, 2011)

Dr Manhattan said:


> I agree to an extent. But there are ways to limit the extent to which you are a pawn. Just personally, it doesn't make someone a hero to me just before they fight for their 'Country'.
> 
> I have more respect for someone who fights for their true beliefs. But to be honest, *I'd suspect 99% of frontline soldiers don't give it that much thought as to why they are truly somewhere and why they are being told to do what they do.*
> 
> It's just not heroic for me personally. More naive.


its not their job to question it thought really! if there was discontent, and it was voiced, the whole infrastructure would collapse, the military would cease to exist, and no doubt we would no longer be the country that we are today.

Firemen, soldiers, some police, health workers are all heroes in their own rights. If they are exploited or not, it does not devalue their lives, and the price some people pay for what we are to believe is our freedom. Its a shame more people dont see soldiers as heroes. They still do as they are told, fight, and die for what they are told is our freedom, and to me that is commendable and does deserve recognition


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## Laurieloz (Apr 8, 2013)

....I had to read the whole thread. @Ashcrapper - excellent talking point here. Firstly, yes of course Lee Rigby - and any member of the armed forces, past or present, living or dead - is/was a hero. But...I was in the forces. I never would consider myself a hero. I expect anybody serving wouldn't. "Hero" is a word for others to recognise that anyone who joins up is therefore subject to a possible combat role. If the person dies in action or not, should not deter from the issue of whether that unfortunate person eas a hero. Of course he was.

Lee Rigby was a bandsman. That was his trade. Like a doctor or policeman, plumber or hairdresser in civilian life.

But a trade in the forces is a supplementary role. ALL members of the armed forces are initially and recurrently trained to fire a weapon. They have basic training before they move on to their chosen trade.

They join to serve their country. They have little say in where they are sent to in the world. They must go to Afghanistan, Iraq, Kosovo, The Falklands if requested to. And they will go. They know that. They are told that at their attestation as they join up.

And the Islam element...that isn't relevant to Ash's post topic.


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## Breda (May 2, 2011)

Skye666 said:


> Who said a hero is someone who u look up to or aspire to be like??
> 
> he was killed in cold blood with no means to protect himself by 2 men who wanted revenge who sat in a car and waited for what could have been any soldier but not any person ( they knew what they were looking for) it was also hardly mindless with a view to that.


I said that

They wanted to kill a soldier, any soldier without cause or thought so yes it is mindless


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## L11 (Jan 21, 2011)

TryingToGetBig said:


> Who was on about immigration? I never mentioned it.


Huh?!

I mentioned it, asking if that's what you meant, you even quoted it! (and didn't deny that's what you mean, implying that I was correct)

So if you weren't talking about immigration, what were you talking about? (In regards to an invasion)


----------



## Dr Manhattan (Jan 8, 2012)

KRSOne said:


> its not their job to question it thought really! if there was discontent, and it was voiced, the whole infrastructure would collapse, the military would cease to exist, and no doubt we would no longer be the country that we are today.
> 
> Firemen, soldiers, some police, health workers are all heroes in their own rights. If they are exploited or not, it does not devalue their lives, and the price some people pay for what we are to believe is our freedom. Its a shame more people dont see soldiers as heroes. They still do as they are told, fight, and die for what they are told is our freedom, and to me that is commendable and does deserve recognition


So then would you say that the insurgents that are killing British soldiers are also heroes? As they too are fighting for what they are told is their freedom, and the best interests of their family. Serious question.

Or does being a hero depend on geographical location?


----------



## L11 (Jan 21, 2011)

Dr Manhattan said:


> So then would you say that the insurgents that are killing British soldiers are also heroes? As they too are fighting for what they are told is their freedom, and the best interests of their family. Serious question.
> 
> Or does being a hero depend on geographical location?


"One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter"


----------



## TryingToGetBig (May 20, 2010)

Dr Manhattan said:


> I have more respect for someone who fights for their true beliefs.
> 
> It's just not heroic for me personally. More naive.


 terrorists fight for what they truly believe, do you respect them?



Dr Manhattan said:


> I was only going off example two that you used to try to express your point.
> 
> But that would be useful if you could post those links. While you're at it, you might want to post one for immigration as well so you can see the difference there too


I know what immigration is, if you immigrate you integrate into the ways of the country you move to. Most people who come here don't. That's the difference.


----------



## Mr_Morocco (May 28, 2011)

TryingToGetBig said:


> No tourists go home, also tourists don't try and change the country they travel to into the one they left.
> 
> If its hard for you I could post a link to the dictionary, you can look up tourist and invasion to see the difference.


What are you referring to here? I dont see this happening in the UK, care to elaborate?


----------



## Dr Manhattan (Jan 8, 2012)

L11 said:


> "One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter"


Exactly...if we're looking into it from that perspective, then that that automatically consider soldiers as heroes would surely automatically consider opponents of soldiers heroes too you'd think.


----------



## latblaster (Oct 26, 2013)

When is a person a Terrorist & when are they a Freedom Fighter?

It all depends on which side you're on.

But, I think we know which is which in this country.


----------



## Dr Manhattan (Jan 8, 2012)

TryingToGetBig said:


> terrorists fight for what they truly believe, do you respect them?
> 
> I know what immigration is, if you immigrate you integrate into the ways of the country you move to. Most people who come here don't. That's the difference.


I don't respect anyone that goes about getting their way through violence.


----------



## TryingToGetBig (May 20, 2010)

Dr Manhattan said:


> So then would you say that the insurgents that are killing British soldiers are also heroes? As they too are fighting for what they are told is their freedom, and the best interests of their family. Serious question.
> 
> Or does being a hero depend on geographical location?


Yes the people who kill British soldiers are seen as heros, by the people who want them dead

A persons opinion of a hero is individual


----------



## L11 (Jan 21, 2011)

TryingToGetBig said:


> I know what immigration is, if you immigrate you integrate into the ways of the country you move to. Most people who come here don't. That's the difference.


I'm not even going to quote the dictionary because I'm sure you know that's bullsh*t. The act of immigration has nothing to do with integration.

That being said, I would argue that it is the distinct minority of immigrants that don't integrate into "British culture."


----------



## Dr Manhattan (Jan 8, 2012)

TryingToGetBig said:


> Yes the people who kill British soldiers are seen as heros, by the people who want them dead
> 
> A persons opinion of a hero is individual


So you'd agree that a dead terrorist is as much a hero as a dead British soldier?


----------



## latblaster (Oct 26, 2013)

I really think we should leave the immigration subject alone.

The thread will get locked before long, it's too much of an emotive subject.


----------



## NovemberDelta (Apr 17, 2011)

I was in the Forces until really recent, as was my brother. Being in forces does not make you are hero by any manner of means.

Yeah, you make sacrifices but so do many people in their work. Just being a soldier or airman whatever cannot make you a hero. I know 20 year forces personnel who have never seen a day of action. They are just civvies in uniform.

It is your actions that define you and make you what you are.


----------



## gycraig (Oct 5, 2008)

where "fighting" them in there home country while there just moving over here nilly willy :S its rediculous it would be like us just letting coach loads of germans into the country during one of the world wars.


----------



## KRSOne (Jul 31, 2011)

Dr Manhattan said:


> So then would you say that the insurgents that are killing British soldiers are also heroes? As they too are fighting for what they are told is their freedom, and the best interests of their family. Serious question.
> 
> Or does being a hero depend on geographical location?


its us vs them isnt it. they could be having the exact same conversation and it wouldnt make any difference.

at the end of the day, they arm themselves as do we. the only difference is we are over there and they are not here.

anyone who fought in any war will be a hero in their own right, by their own country and nationality.

no one is wrong here!


----------



## Skye666 (Apr 13, 2013)

Dr Manhattan said:


> I agree to an extent. But there are ways to limit the extent to which you are a pawn. Just personally, it doesn't make someone a hero to me just before they fight for their 'Country'.
> 
> I have more respect for someone who fights for their true beliefs. But to be honest, I'd suspect 99% of frontline soldiers don't give it that much thought as to why they are truly somewhere and why they are being told to do what they do.
> 
> It's just not heroic for me personally. More naive.


'Why they are being told to do what they do'. These guys are not all thick!!! U make it sound like they are none the wiser..

For some their true belief may well be to defend their country how do u know....u can't base ur 99% suspicion on anything.


----------



## Zara-Leoni (Mar 12, 2007)

They are willing to sacrifice their own lives for that of others.

What better definition of hero is there....?


----------



## Breda (May 2, 2011)

L11 said:


> I'm not even going to quote the dictionary because I'm sure you know that's bullsh*t. The act of immigration has nothing to do with integration.
> 
> That being said, I would argue that it is the distinct minority of immigrants that don't integrate into "British culture."


British culture has been pirated from every other culture. Fish and chips aint even British ffs


----------



## L11 (Jan 21, 2011)

NovemberDelta said:


> It is your actions that define you and make you what you are.


This. This is the guy.


----------



## Dr Manhattan (Jan 8, 2012)

gycraig said:


> where "fighting" them in there home country while there just moving over here nilly willy :S its rediculous it would be like us just letting coach loads of germans into the country during one of the world wars.


Wow!


----------



## L11 (Jan 21, 2011)

Breda said:


> British culture has been pirated from every other culture. Fish and chips aint even British ffs


That was on my mind as I typed that but I thought "Don't go there L11, they won't get it"


----------



## NovemberDelta (Apr 17, 2011)

Dr Manhattan said:


> So you'd agree that a dead terrorist is as much a hero as a dead British soldier?


To the people who support terror he is. That is a matter of perspective - extremists believe they have a legitimate mandate and thy are soldiers.

Let me make it very clear that is not MY own opinion - merely the way some people see it.


----------



## Dr Manhattan (Jan 8, 2012)

Zara-Leoni said:


> They are willing to sacrifice their own lives for that of others.
> 
> What better definition of hero is there....?


Doing something for the greater good of whole mankind rather than a select few would be a hero in my eyes.


----------



## gycraig (Oct 5, 2008)

Dr Manhattan said:


> Wow!


i work for an afghan delivering pizzas. his family just keep appearing from over there which i have no problem with.

but where meant to be fighting "terrorist insurgents" in there homeland who want us all dead. but they can easily just move over here :S


----------



## mikep81 (Oct 8, 2010)

L11 said:


> Not sure if that was a compliment. If you read the thread, I didn't bring up the subject of the video, that was someone else. I only posted it to highlight that he'd misquoted it and completely invalidated that part of his argument.
> 
> On another note, if they don't ask to be called heroes, or regard themselves as heroes. Then whats the problem with me not considering them heroes?


Did you even read my response? It didn't completely invalidate that part of my argument at all. Only one part. My argument still stands that they refer to the troops as "our".


----------



## TryingToGetBig (May 20, 2010)

Mr_Morocco said:


> What are you referring to here? I dont see this happening in the UK, care to elaborate?


Ok I feel there are three types of people.

Tourists - go on holiday, go home = good

Immigrants - come to uk, stay, bring something good to us, intergrate into society = good

Invaders - come to uk, stay, bring nothing good to us, don't intergrate into society, wish harm to the people already in the country. Bad

All 3 happen in uk,

Anyway well off topic


----------



## NovemberDelta (Apr 17, 2011)

Skye666 said:


> 'Why they are being told to do what they do'. These guys are not all thick!!! U make it sound like they are none the wiser..
> 
> For some their true belief may well be to defend their country how do u know....u can't base ur 99% suspicion on anything.


Based on my experience in the forces almost everyone was doing what they were doing because they were told to.


----------



## Zara-Leoni (Mar 12, 2007)

Dr Manhattan said:


> Doing something for the greater good of whole mankind rather than a select few would be a hero in my eyes.


What? Like recycling?

Admirable perhaps, but hardly heroic....


----------



## Dr Manhattan (Jan 8, 2012)

KRSOne said:


> its us vs them isnt it. they could be having the exact same conversation and it wouldnt make any difference.
> 
> at the end of the day, they arm themselves as do we. the only difference is we are over there and they are not here.
> 
> ...


See this is where we disagree.

To me, dying for such reasons isn't brave or noble. It's foolish and a waste.

But then, the latter doesn't have quite the same ring if used for a recruitment drive.


----------



## L11 (Jan 21, 2011)

Zara-Leoni said:


> They are willing to sacrifice their own lives for that of others.
> 
> What better definition of hero is there....?


Well they're not really, they're willing to sacrifice their own lives for money.

Yes they will protect their friends and colleagues if they were in danger, but it's only their line of work that makes them likely to have to do this, not any intrinsic moral capacity.

Wouldn't we all protect our friends and colleagues if they were in danger?


----------



## TryingToGetBig (May 20, 2010)

Dr Manhattan said:


> So you'd agree that a dead terrorist is as much a hero as a dead British soldier?


To someone he would be.


----------



## NovemberDelta (Apr 17, 2011)

gycraig said:


> i work for an afghan delivering pizzas. his family just keep appearing from over there which i have no problem with.
> 
> but where meant to be fighting "terrorist insurgents" in there homeland who want us all dead. but they can easily just move over here :S


The flaw in your logic is the assumption that

a) all these Afghan people represent "terrorist insurgent"

B) we are at war with Afghanistan


----------



## L11 (Jan 21, 2011)

mikep81 said:


> Did you even read my response? It didn't completely invalidate that part of my argument at all. Only one part. My argument still stands that they refer to the troops as "our".


I must admit, although i've had a ridiculous amount of time on my hands, I haven't read all 200+ posts in this thread, my apologies.

I haven't seen the part where they refer to the troops (british troops?) as "our", I will watch the video again and look out for it.


----------



## mikep81 (Oct 8, 2010)

Mr_Morocco said:


> Can you honestly see the goverment pulling out of iraq/afghan and then going to africa or syria, i doubt it very much


Yes and no. The problem now is that our foreign policies have changed and reactions to Iraq and Afghanistan have changed the way we do things. It's entirely plausible now that we'll stay well the fvck away from any country so as not to cause the government any more problems with public opinion. Certainly its too early to call is as at this moment in time we couldn't handle any further operations. But as I said once the draw downs are finished, then you can look at the situation and argue about other regimes being left. But as said, even then, because if recent events, its not going to be as black and white as some might think.


----------



## Dr Manhattan (Jan 8, 2012)

Zara-Leoni said:


> What? Like recycling?
> 
> Admirable perhaps, but hardly heroic....


Haha maybe not recycling. I'd say that's more a case of being considerate.


----------



## Bashy (Jun 16, 2010)

Its all down to interpretation.

Thinking of the soldiers in WW1 and WW2 they were prepared to, and did, defend their country by actively fighting an enemy that posed a direct threat.

Then you have people who sign up quite prepared to serve their country but never actually do. Are you classed as a hero because by signing up you are showing willingness to defend your country? I think its all down to interpretation.

Fair play to Lee Rigby for choosing that path in life but I do not see him as a 'hero' as I would define it.

I see it as a honourable bloke being on the wrong end of some misguided ideology as interpreted by a pair of cnuts.


----------



## L11 (Jan 21, 2011)

Right I'm off to get some Disaronno and hopefully a blowjob.

I've genuinely enjoyed this discussion, I must admit I've purposely played devil's advocate on certain issues, simply to delve deeper into the matter, and it has been interesting.

Good luck @Dr Manhattan


----------



## tamara (Sep 23, 2012)

Mish said:


> Confirming my point made yesterday.


Are you that retarded or what like!?

There's a time and a place for derogatory comments. This thread isn't one of them. I only responded with what I did because the AUTHOR of this thread asked me a question regarding penis size and I responded with what you quoted, purely to prove that despite me having this penchant towards a large phallus, I would put that aside for a marine as I think of them highly and in that instance it wouldn't matter.

Had enough of little pussy f**got boys (not men) having a go at me for stuff.


----------



## Dr Manhattan (Jan 8, 2012)

L11 said:


> Right I'm off to get some Disaronno and hopefully a blowjob.
> 
> I've genuinely enjoyed this discussion, I must admit I've purposely played devil's advocate on certain issues, simply to delve deeper into the matter, and it has been interesting.
> 
> Good luck @Dr Manhattan


Mate I'm bailing too! I'm getting zero blow jobs or tasty alcohols...but instead have a training class for my puppy. Lame!


----------



## mikep81 (Oct 8, 2010)

I cant believe some of the sh1t i'm now reading on this! It seems some people are now arguing for the sake of it on this. Of course terrorists are heroes to some, I can't even believe that's being asked!!! Bin Laden called all his jihadists heroes! Are they heroes to us... Fvck no but it doesn't mean they're not heroes to someone! The Taliban are here's to themselves and their supporters, they're terrorists to a majority of Afghan people though. It's fvcking simple!


----------



## Paisleylad (Jan 22, 2013)

Dr Manhattan said:


> Mate I'm bailing too! I'm getting zero blow jobs or tasty alcohols...but instead have a training class for my puppy. Lame!


Maybe you's can help one and other out?...blowjob for a well trained puppy seems fair.

;-p


----------



## Zara-Leoni (Mar 12, 2007)

L11 said:


> Well they're not really, they're willing to sacrifice their own lives for money.


There are far easier and safer ways to make a living, and the majority of them pay better for far less hours and a better quality of life and time with family etc.

I come from a military family, and work-wise we supply supplements to the 3 barracks in Edinburgh and also to Sandhurst. In addition there is a company partially run from my work premises that does resettlement training for service leavers, so its fair to say I spend a lot of time around serving and ex-serving men and women. I've yet to meet a soldier who signed up soley for the money...



L11 said:


> Yes they will protect their friends and colleagues if they were in danger, but it's only their line of work that makes them likely to have to do this, not any intrinsic moral capacity.
> 
> Wouldn't we all protect our friends and colleagues if they were in danger?


No, we all would not. Catagorically not. I probably would personally, but there are millions who would not.


----------



## Dr Manhattan (Jan 8, 2012)

tamara said:


> Are you that retarded or what like!?
> 
> There's a time and a place for derogatory comments. This thread isn't one of them. I only responded with what I did because the AUTHUR of this thread asked me a question regarding penis size and I responded with what you quoted, purely to prove that *despite me having this penchant towards a large phallus, I would put that aside for a marine as I think of them highly* and in that instance it wouldn't matter.
> 
> Had enough of little pussy f**got boys (not men) having a go at me for stuff.


Aren't you a trooper. I'm sure those marines with tiny penises will rest easy now :thumb:


----------



## gycraig (Oct 5, 2008)

NovemberDelta said:


> The flaw in your logic is the assumption that
> 
> a) all these Afghan people represent "terrorist insurgent"
> 
> B) we are at war with Afghanistan


my logic ? i never said we are at war with afghanistan. we are apparently fighting a small percentage of them who would just love to bomb fk out of the uk. apparently were stopping them doing this by being in afghan, despite the fact it is very easy for them to just get on a plane to here.


----------



## Breda (May 2, 2011)

tamara said:


> Are you that retarded or what like!?
> 
> There's a time and a place for derogatory comments. This thread isn't one of them. I only responded with what I did because the AUTHUR of this thread asked me a question regarding penis size and I responded with what you quoted, purely to prove that despite me having this penchant towards a large phallus, I would put that aside for a marine as I think of them highly and in that instance it wouldn't matter.
> 
> Had enough of little pussy f**got boys (not men) having a go at me for stuff.


Author

Just sayin "whistling:


----------



## tamara (Sep 23, 2012)

Breda said:


> Author
> 
> Just sayin "whistling:


I know, just noticed, umm auto correct done it!


----------



## Ashcrapper (Jul 3, 2008)

Dr Manhattan said:


> So then would you say that the insurgents that are killing British soldiers are also heroes? As they too are fighting for what they are told is their freedom, and the best interests of their family. Serious question.
> 
> Or does being a hero depend on geographical location?


a rather intriguing post, interesting point 

I dont think people will ever agree on this but its been a good debate, and that is the point of forums isnt it. Been interesting reading peoples thoughts on this


----------



## Mr_Morocco (May 28, 2011)

Of course the iraqi and afghani insurgents are seen as heroes in their countrys, end of the day they're protecting their land and their way of life from the occupying forces


----------



## mikep81 (Oct 8, 2010)

gycraig said:


> my logic ? i never said we are at war with afghanistan. we are apparently fighting a small percentage of them who would just love to bomb fk out of the uk. apparently were stopping them doing this by being in afghan, despite the fact it is very easy for them to just get on a plane to here.


Without trying to sound like a d1ck, that is wrong. The Taliban don't want to bomb UK. They only want to gain control of Afghan, and are not an international terrorist organisation. We initially invaded Afghanistan because the Taliban were allowing terrorist groups to train in their country. We are fighting them now because the Afghan people don't want to live under their rule, due to the disgusting way in which they keep control (yes there's other theories on reasons why we're there but this isn't the time to place for that).


----------



## Breda (May 2, 2011)

tamara said:


> I know, just noticed, umm auto correct done it!


Hmmmm... sure it did


----------



## Ashcrapper (Jul 3, 2008)

tamara said:


> Are you that retarded or what like!?
> 
> There's a time and a place for derogatory comments. This thread isn't one of them. I only responded with what I did because the AUTHOR of this thread asked me a question regarding penis size and I responded with what you quoted, purely to prove that despite me having this penchant towards a large phallus, I would put that aside for a marine as I think of them highly and in that instance it wouldn't matter.
> 
> Had enough of little pussy f**got boys (not men) having a go at me for stuff.





Dr Manhattan said:


> Aren't you a trooper. I'm sure those marines with tiny penises will rest easy now :thumb:


these two posts have genuinely tickled me :lol:


----------



## Mish (May 1, 2011)

tamara said:


> Are you that retarded or what like!?
> 
> There's a time and a place for derogatory comments. This thread isn't one of them. I only responded with what I did because the AUTHUR of this thread asked me a question regarding penis size and I responded with what you quoted, purely to prove that despite me having this penchant towards a large phallus, I would put that aside for a marine as I think of them highly and in that instance it wouldn't matter.
> 
> Had enough of little pussy f**got boys (not men) having a go at me for stuff.


You are quite right petal a thread on such a serious subject does not deserve to be brought down with the inclusion of sex and smut that you so duly resulted to at the first opportunity


----------



## gycraig (Oct 5, 2008)

Zara-Leoni said:


> There are far easier and safer ways to make a living, and the majority of them pay better for far less hours and a better quality of life and time with family etc.
> 
> I come from a military family, and work-wise we supply supplements to the 3 barracks in Edinburgh and also to Sandhurst. In addition there is a company partially run from my work premises that does resettlement training for service leavers, so its fair to say I spend a lot of time around serving and ex-serving men and women. I've yet to meet a soldier who signed up soley for the money...
> 
> No, we all would not. Catagorically not. I probably would personally, but there are millions who would not.


a lot of people CANT GET A JOB. the army is pretty much a guaranteed job if your willing to put the effort in, a lot of people thrive in the army who where on the dole before they went in.

the army isnt always peoples first option


----------



## NovemberDelta (Apr 17, 2011)

gycraig said:


> my logic ? i never said we are at war with afghanistan. we are apparently fighting a small percentage of them who would just love to bomb fk out of the uk. apparently were stopping them doing this by being in afghan, despite the fact it is very easy for them to just get on a plane to here.


Yeah, but by referring to these Afghans as "them" and finding fault with allowing them into Britain it implies you view Afghans as extermist terroritst? So what if Afghans who aren't extreme (most of them) are allowed in? Remember the war is against the Taliban, not Afghans per se.

Maybe I have misunderstood what you meant.


----------



## Ashcrapper (Jul 3, 2008)

Mish said:


> You are quite right petal a thread on such a serious subject does not deserve to be brought down with the inclusion of sex and smut that you so duly resulted to at the first opportunity


to be fair I set that going


----------



## Dr Manhattan (Jan 8, 2012)

Mish said:


> You are quite right petal a thread on such a serious subject does not deserve to be brought down with the inclusion of sex and smut that you so duly resulted to at the first opportunity


----------



## Mish (May 1, 2011)

Ashcrapper said:


> to be fair I set that going


And she didn't need to be asked twice did she?


----------



## Ashcrapper (Jul 3, 2008)

Mish said:


> And she didn't need to be asked twice did she?


yeh but its hardly fair to slate her when I directly asked if he had a big cock


----------



## gycraig (Oct 5, 2008)

NovemberDelta said:


> Yeah, but by referring to these Afghans as "them" and finding fault with allowing them into Britain it implies you view Afghans as extermist terroritst? So what if Afghans who aren't extreme (most of them) are allowed in? Remember the war is against the Taliban, not Afghans per se.
> 
> Maybe I have misunderstood what you meant.


im not saying that at all i happily work for a man from afghan. and would of been unemployed for a long time if he hadnt been allowed in

all we ever hear in the press is how our soldiers are protecting us from bomb wielding maniacs who want to destroy the uk/the usa. imo this is simply not true as people from these countries can pretty much walk into our country without any hassle anyway.

im rubbish at expressing myself tbh so easy to misunderstand me


----------



## Rubes (Sep 4, 2011)

I haven't really managed to go through all of the pages of this thread however I'm slightly doubtful that a person's occupation automatically makes them a hero.

I will say though that being a solider, gives more opportunities for heroism than other careers.

As for the way in which the individual died, iirc it's was just an incidence of being the wrong place at the wrong time as opposed to noble martyrdom.


----------



## Tonk007 (Jan 1, 2012)

megatron said:


> Another pointless death in the name of the almighty sky fairy... Thanks Islam.


what a ignorant post, got nothing to do with islam, only people to blame for these kinds of attrocites are the western goverments

dont go sticking your noses/invading muslim countries killing innocents, then these knids of incidents wouldnt take place

only way to stop these incidents is to get out of occupied land & stop trying to police the world


----------



## Paisleylad (Jan 22, 2013)

Rubes said:


> I haven't really managed to go through all of the pages of this thread however I'm slightly doubtful that a person's occupation automatically makes them a hero.
> 
> I will say though that being a solider, gives more opportunities for heroism than other careers.
> 
> As for the way in which the individual died, iirc it's was just an incidence of being the wrong place at the wrong time as opposed to noble martyrdom.


This "wrong place ,right time" that keeps popping up.

Couldnt this be said about every death as surely there aint many deaths resulting in "right place right time".

Oh and the lad was targeted due to him being serving member of the armed forces.

Lets not try and make it coincedence.


----------



## Paisleylad (Jan 22, 2013)

Tonk007 said:


> what a ignorant post, got nothing to do with islam, only people to blame for these kinds of attrocites are the western goverments
> 
> dont go sticking your noses/invading muslim countries killing innocents, then these knids of incidents wouldnt take place
> 
> only way to stop these incidents is to get out of occupied land & stop trying to police the world


If you seriously believe that then im going to stick my neck on the line and say you are part of the problem.

Answer me this... Who kills more muslims each year... Western governments or muslims?


----------



## Rubes (Sep 4, 2011)

Paisleylad said:


> This "wrong place ,right time" that keeps popping up.
> 
> Couldnt this be said about every death as surely there aint many deaths resulting in "right place right time".
> 
> ...


Perhaps I shouldn't have used that expression. It demeans his death. Although he was targeted for being a soilder, I don't think his death meant he was a hero. I'll have to reread the article though . But it's perfectly possible that whilst on the force he did heroic deeds.

Imo, a heroic death would be one where the individual directly chose to self-sacrifice themselves to save (an)other(s).


----------



## TryingToGetBig (May 20, 2010)

Paisleylad said:


> If you seriously believe that then im going to stick my neck on the line and say you are part of the problem.
> 
> Answer me this... Who kills more muslims each year... Western governments or muslims?


Good point, I really wish I could take some people away with me next time I deploy, it would change a lot of people's opinions. Most of what people see and believe comes from the media, and we all know they chat sh*t for a good story.


----------



## mikep81 (Oct 8, 2010)

gycraig said:


> im not saying that at all i happily work for a man from afghan. and would of been unemployed for a long time if he hadnt been allowed in
> 
> all we ever hear in the press is how our soldiers are protecting us from bomb wielding maniacs who want to destroy the uk/the usa. imo this is simply not true as people from these countries can pretty much walk into our country without any hassle anyway.
> 
> im rubbish at expressing myself tbh so easy to misunderstand me


To be fair, regarding your second paragraph, the press seem to consistently get the whole Afghan thing wrong. Afghanis in general don't want to attack the west. The mission in Afghanistan was to stop it being used a terrorist training hub for the worlds terror organisations, which has worked. Last year Al Qaeda said they wanted their followers to launch lone wolf attacks as it is too difficult for them to operate a global network like before. If this is truly the case then in one respect we've made a major accomplishment by going into Afghan. On the flip side though, lone wolf attacks are harder to predict so we may have fvcked ourselves over a little there, but we have made it harder for them. Also since going into Afghanistan, a lot more countries have responded and taken responsibility for terrorism in their own country, which is also a plus.


----------



## richie777 (Jul 7, 2013)

Paisleylad said:


> If you seriously believe that then im going to stick my neck on the line and say you are part of the problem.
> 
> Answer me this... Who kills more muslims each year... Western governments or muslims?


You do realise the type of person you're trying to reason with ... ?


----------



## Ashcrapper (Jul 3, 2008)

richie777 said:


> You do realise the type of person you're trying to reason with ... ?


educate us


----------



## Paisleylad (Jan 22, 2013)

richie777 said:


> You do realise the type of person you're trying to reason with ... ?


No reasoning from me mate.

This myth that the West started this is one that crops up again and again.

AlQueda were bombing their way across the world long before 9/11 which many see as the starting point.


----------



## NBK (Feb 4, 2012)

Not all service men are equals, infantry soldiers (the ACTUAL ones who do the fighting) are the only people you should respect


----------



## MincedMuscle (Aug 6, 2012)

Heroes perhaps only in terms of "it's the thought that counts". Most of us believe we fight for a good cause but we aren't. Doesn't matter what country it is. Unless you're in your own country defending from invaders.


----------



## NovemberDelta (Apr 17, 2011)

NBK said:


> Not all service men are equals, infantry soldiers (the ACTUAL ones who do the fighting) are the only people you should respect


Yeah forget the Royal Navy medics working in support, the Royal Marines driving the vehicles, the RAF Reg protecting the assetsn and all the thousands working in support but not directly on the front line - don't respect them. Oh or the Apache pilots, the Harrier bombers, - forget them too! Not a great post mate.


----------



## SILV3RBACK (Jun 23, 2012)

No he isn't.


----------



## NBK (Feb 4, 2012)

NovemberDelta said:


> Yeah forget the Royal Navy medics working in support, the Royal Marines driving the vehicles, the RAF Reg protecting the assetsn and all the thousands working in support but not directly on the front line - don't respect them. Oh or the Apache pilots, the Harrier bombers, - forget them too! Not a great post mate.


From personal experiance i have what goes on out there. Camp bastion and kandahar is looked after by the yanks more. People die and the same people that are there to save their lives complain because now they cant call their gf back home because all communications get blocked. The same apache pilots that wouldnt fly because it was deemed to dangerous but yet on the ground , when we desperatly neesed help we were left alone. So no i dont respect them


----------



## Rubes (Sep 4, 2011)

Zara-Leoni said:


> What? Like recycling?
> 
> Admirable perhaps, but hardly heroic....


I thought the person meant something like (possibly underpaid) research on pest-resistant, high nutrient foods.


----------



## NovemberDelta (Apr 17, 2011)

richie777 said:


> You do realise the type of person you're trying to reason with ... ?


Let me preface this by emphasising I am ex forces and pro forces BUT

It is niave in the extreme not to acknowledge the effect that invasions and incursions have had on radicalising otherwise normal people.

Take the cases of misconduct and collateral damage caused by primarily western forces. If my daughter's entire wedding party was killed by western bombers I can guarantee it would radicalise me.

It isn't right to dismiss this opinion bacause it is uncomfortable.


----------



## KRIS_B (Apr 17, 2011)

L11 said:


> Come on now..
> 
> Why the f*ck would they want to invade us?
> 
> Seriously..?


This is either a serious comment or your thick as fcuk!!


----------



## latblaster (Oct 26, 2013)

richie777 said:


> You do realise the type of person you're trying to reason with ... ?


You really DO need to alter that comment.


----------



## KRIS_B (Apr 17, 2011)

Dr Manhattan said:


> So then people going on holiday would be invaders? Rather than tourists?


Hmmmm... Are you Taliban or sumert cause it seems your rather up for their side?? If our country was invaded an the enemy was coming up your street and the only hope you had was us would we still be Mindless pawns? I think not mate we are aware of other underground reasons we are fighting were not stupid but we still choose to do it. And any other squad die I know who hasn't agreed with it or decided to wanna do it had left do you my friend don't have a clue


----------



## KRIS_B (Apr 17, 2011)

Not squad die .....SQUADDIE!! . Fckin stupid iPhone and "decided to not wanna do it has left"


----------



## DeadlyCoobra (Oct 16, 2011)

Would you consider scientists researching new vaccines, cures for diseases, water filtration systems and genetically modified crops to increase yield and tolerance to harsher environments heroes?

It requires no courage or bravery on their part yet they are dedicating their lives to something that will help save others. Is it only heroic if danger or risk is involved?

If they spend years studying and researching to get to the position where they are doing vital research like this, does that not in a way mean they have given their life to that cause?

IMO soldiers, fireman, doctors, ambulance drivers and these scientist e.t.c are all heroes.


----------



## Dr Manhattan (Jan 8, 2012)

KRIS_B said:


> Hmmmm... Are you Taliban or sumert cause it seems your rather up for their side?? If our country was invaded an the enemy was coming up your street and the only hope you had was us would we still be Mindless pawns? I think not mate we are aware of other underground reasons we are fighting were not stupid but we still choose to do it. And any other squad die I know who hasn't agreed with it or decided to wanna do it had left do you my friend don't have a clue


Haha no mate I'm not Taliban.

But as far as I'm aware, the UK isn't under any threat from the Taliban. I just try and see things from the outside rather than from within and remove the blinkers. I know it's not all black and white.

But you call them the enemy...the enemy of who? They aren't my enemy, that's for sure.


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## Xelibrium (May 7, 2013)

Dr Manhattan said:


> Haha no mate I'm not Taliban.
> 
> But as far as I'm aware, the UK isn't under any threat from the Taliban. I just try and see things from the outside rather than from within and remove the blinkers. I know it's not all black and white.
> 
> But you call them the enemy...the enemy of who? They aren't my enemy, that's for sure.


Theyd be your enemy if a family member was in 9/11 or the london bombings

Some people on here need a serious wake up call


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## nowhereboy (May 22, 2012)

Christ don't get me started on this subject. I'm like an anti patriot. Soldiers ain't heroes in my eyes.


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## Dr Manhattan (Jan 8, 2012)

Xelibrium said:


> Theyd be your enemy if a family member was in 9/11 or the london bombings
> 
> Some people on here need a serious wake up call


Not sure if you're being serious or not...

In case you are, why would the Taliban be my enemy? That was Al Quaeda (supposedly) and not the Taliban that carried out those attacks.

Blaming the Taliban for 9/11 or 7/7 is as logical as blaming the government of Pakistan or Iran or Russia.


----------



## WilsonR6 (Feb 14, 2012)

There is some absolute idiot that is unfortunately somehow related to me who joined the army thinking he was billy big bollocks then went AWOL the day he was supposed to fly out to Afghanistan

Just thought I'd share that with you all.

I had considered Army as an option till I watched vids on Youtube. If you get a minute watch them, they are ****ing scary as ****! In one a group of like 6 are getting ambushed while walking across a mountain so the guy with the camera starts sprinting and you can hear the bullets whistling past him and you can see them hitting the rocks and stuff right next to his feet and he's relatively calm considering the situation. Then he takes cover in a small turret like thing near to a big rock but he's not even fully in it he's half in it just chilling trying to radio through to someone or something, bullets still exploding on things right next to him and you would expect to him be in sheer panic mode but he looks about the equivalent of what I would if a bigger guy was to start throwing punches at me

He lives too. People like him are heroes!


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## vetran (Oct 17, 2009)

are soldiers heroes? hmm, i no a lot of guys that have come out of the forces and end up downtown thinking they are the bees, getting p*ssed causing trouble and trying to prove themeselves, proper t*ts, the heroes are the lads that have been in proper combat and been affected by it all, ie why the fck go fight for your country then come back and start trouble with your own


----------



## Xelibrium (May 7, 2013)

Dr Manhattan said:


> :lol: not sure if you're being serious or not...
> 
> In case you are, why would the Taliban be my enemy? That was Al Quaeda (supposedly) and not the Taliban that carried out those attacks.
> 
> Blaming the Taliban for 9/11 or 7/7 is as logical as blaming the government of Pakistan or Iran or Russia.


Supposedly being the keyword, 2 of the men involved openly told people they were in support of the Taliban several months before MI5 even published this. The pair from Leeds Mohammad khan and sehsed tanweer.

Reports of one also went to a Taliban training camp after hajj pilgrimage in Pakistan.

If your family were injured or killed they wouldn't be your enemy?

Your either a really sick troll judging by your previous posts or a supporter of them or just some jumped up idiot who thinks its cool.


----------



## Dr Manhattan (Jan 8, 2012)

Xelibrium said:


> Supposedly being the keyword, 2 of the men involved openly told people they were in support of the Taliban several months before MI5 even published this. The pair from Leeds Mohammad khan and sehsed tanweer.
> 
> Reports of one also went to a Taliban training camp after hajj pilgrimage in Pakistan.
> 
> ...


If you're back tracing, you may want to look at who trained and armed the Taliban? Then, once you've found the answer...I'd be interested to know if that makes them the enemy as well.

As for if I'm a troll or if I support the Taliban...perhaps I just think that Weatern Governments should just rock up and dictate to people who is in charge, masquerading it as 'democracy' and 'freedom' for their people.


----------



## Xelibrium (May 7, 2013)

Dr Manhattan said:


> If you're back tracing, you may want to look at who trained and armed the Taliban? Then, once you've found the answer...I'd be interested to know if that makes them the enemy as well.
> 
> As for if I'm a troll or if I support the Taliban...perhaps I just think that Weatern Governments should just rock up and dictate to people who is in charge, masquerading it as 'democracy' and 'freedom' for their people.


Yeah i figured you would pull that one out.

It wasn't the Taliban who were trained or armed it was the Mujaheddin the Taliban were still running round in nappies learn your history and events properly

Lets go back even further to get rid of the original point who first came to England who trained that army who lead them... wow.

ridiculous circles for people like you


----------



## Dr Manhattan (Jan 8, 2012)

Xelibrium said:


> Yeah i figured you would pull that one out.
> 
> It wasn't the Taliban who were trained or armed it was the Mujaheddin the Taliban were still running round in nappies learn your history and events properly
> 
> ...


People like me...meaning?


----------



## Xelibrium (May 7, 2013)

Meaning you have no clue what you are talking about at all so you revise back to sh1te you know nothing of but have probably heard off either some stupid article or a work college pipe down if you know nothing of it


----------



## Xelibrium (May 7, 2013)

vetran said:


> are soldiers heroes? hmm, i no a lot of guys that have come out of the forces and end up downtown thinking they are the bees, getting p*ssed causing trouble and trying to prove themeselves, proper t*ts, the heroes are the lads that have been in proper combat and been affected by it all, ie why the fck go fight for your country then come back and start trouble with your own


I've seen this myself specially with drink!


----------



## JonnyBoy81 (Jun 26, 2013)

Mod , are you not gonna delete this thread !?

Nowt to do with BB. and not very respectful comments being left, no matter what personal opinions maybe.

fvck.


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## Ashcrapper (Jul 3, 2008)

This is general conversation mate. I honestly wasnt trying to cause offence with this thread, I've even changed my stance somewhat after reading people's thoughts. It's a debate mate...


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## L11 (Jan 21, 2011)

KRIS_B said:


> This is either a serious comment or your thick as fcuk!!


I'm assuming you meant

"This is a joke, or you're thick as fcuk!!"

Because what you actually said implies that I'm either serious, and intelligent. Or joking, and stupid. Neither of which would be worth pointing out.


----------



## Mr_Morocco (May 28, 2011)

JonnyBoy81 said:


> Mod , are you not gonna delete this thread !?
> 
> Nowt to do with BB. and not very respectful comments being left, no matter what personal opinions maybe.
> 
> fvck.


 :confused1:


----------



## Mr_Morocco (May 28, 2011)

L11 said:


> I'm assuming you meant
> 
> "I'm assuming this is a joke, or you're thick as fc
> 
> Because what you actually said implies that I'm either serious, and intelligent. Or joking, and stupid. Neither of which would be worth pointing out.


did you get your disaranno and blowjob then


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## L11 (Jan 21, 2011)

Mr_Morocco said:


> did you get your disaranno and blowjob then


Nah mate, her boyfriend's brother saw us in asda and txted him so she went home


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## Mr_Morocco (May 28, 2011)

L11 said:


> Nah mate, her boyfriend's brother saw us in asda and txted him so she went home


 :lol:


----------



## Bear2012 (Jan 19, 2012)

JonnyBoy81 said:


> Mod , are you not gonna delete this thread !?
> 
> Nowt to do with BB. and not very respectful comments being left, no matter what personal opinions maybe.
> 
> fvck.


Why? Its a debate and in the general conversation area if it offends you or not on par with BB what you want to read then go search the other forums?


----------



## Bear2012 (Jan 19, 2012)

I have a mate who is still serving and has done multiple tours in Afghan and he would be the first one to stand up and say he is no hero he does it for the money, the job, the opportunities and he is TRAINED to do what he does.

I also have a mate who is ex SAS he is of the same opinion. Funny enough if you ask them both they say the real hero's on the battle field are the medics who rush in under chaotic conditions trying to save lives.

I respect anyone that serves it is an honourable profession and one our government needs to look at and look after the people when they get out of service. But? I can understand why Rigby's family may feel he is a hero but for me it was a man murdered in the street and if it were anyone else it would have been another violent murder.

It really is that simple is it not?


----------



## rumbaba (Oct 2, 2012)

L11 said:


> This is where half the forum is going to turn on me BUT...
> 
> How exactly is going out to Afghanistan/Iraq/Libya to kill in order to liberate *their* people risking their life for me??
> 
> If we had a war on home soil and my friends and family and country were in danger, then I'd be the first to praise all the people that protected *us*. I'd actually seriously consider joining the army.


They are heroes, you might not always support where your government deploys them, but the soldiers themselves should always be shown support. USA and Australia should hang their heads in shame in the way they greeted returning soldiers from Vietnam. Even if you don't support the politics behind the deployment the troops don't really have a say in where they are sent and so should,in my opinion, receive their nations best wishes.


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## latblaster (Oct 26, 2013)

So at what point do people in the services become a hero?

The day they enlist, complete basic training, or engage in battle?

Genuinely, I am interested how you, who believe that 'they are all heroes', decide this.


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## Nidge (Jan 22, 2007)

hotchy said:


> Every single person in the armed forces who goes out risking there own life's for us is a hero.


This ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


----------



## Nidge (Jan 22, 2007)

a.notherguy said:


> a hero is someone who goes above and beyond his duty.
> 
> did the drummer do this? or is he being labelled a hero purely for being in the wrong place and the wrong time and being murdered by 2 [email protected]?


He wasn't just a drummer mate he was in the Royal Fusiliers who have seen action in Iraq and Afghan.


----------



## latblaster (Oct 26, 2013)

I think the underlying reasons why people consider this young man a hero, goes deeper than we seem to be addressing.

It is a part of us creating in some way a National Identity, perhaps someone to who we can look up to, identify with or consider to be representative of our spirit.

The phrase "Troubled Times" has been used for many 100's of years & having someone that we can associate ourselves with is not new in this respect.

There is no need to describe quite how 'bad things are' in the world, & I believe we are building up to some great changes.

People feel scared, money is short while others lead a life of apparent ease. And yet another innocent has their life ended too soon.

Perhaps Lee Rigby is being "used" as an icon in some ways, as a means to differentiate ourselves from the evil that is all around.

Maybe I haven't expressed myself fully here, so don't jump down my throat if it doesn't quite resonate with you.

But, poor Lee Rigby is still dead.

And it doesn't have to be this way. We get one shot at life. Let's make it a good one.


----------



## alan_wilson (Feb 25, 2012)

Well.

I've served. My brother served, my three cousins are in Afgan now, and their dad just got back.

Every male member of my family has served, so its hard for me not to get to too biased.

First off, no soldier I knew, hero or not, considered themselves a hero, even if they had done something incredible.

The Hero tag is something that is given by others, and most of the time hero is our way of saying that we appreciate what our soldiers are doing, and to me its only a good thing.

Are soldiers hero for simply going on an operational tour, no. are they heros for going out on patrols and putting some rounds down...no.

are our soldiers heros for making sure each of there opos or mates come back safely each and every time, yes! Are they heros for occasionally going that extra mile to safe a life or go that extra mile to ensure a countries safety, or the peoples safety which could result in their own loss of life...YES.

to some its just a job, its not for everyone, nor is it for everyone to agree on.

its your choice if you feel a soldier is a brave hero.

hero or not, anyone who puts their life in danger in the forces should be respected, that's all any soldier would want

but as someone rightly said, each son, daughter, husband, wife, best friend who is in the forces is a hero to someone...and always will be...and that should never be disrespected.


----------



## dentylad (Nov 19, 2011)

Speak to someone who worked in Northern Ireland as a para in the 90's and tell me they aint a hero. Picking up your mates bodyparts is enough to warrant hero status if you ask me. Same as fighting anyone so we can keep our freedom tbh


----------



## Bear2012 (Jan 19, 2012)

alan_wilson said:


> Well.
> 
> are our soldiers heros for making sure each of there opos or mates come back safely each and every time, yes! Are they heros for occasionally going that extra mile to safe a life or go that extra mile to ensure a countries safety, or the peoples safety which could result in their own loss of life...YES.
> 
> ...


----------



## NovemberDelta (Apr 17, 2011)

Xelibrium said:


> Your either a really sick troll judging by your previous posts or a supporter of them or just some jumped up idiot who thinks its cool.


Why is he? Because he disagrees with you?

Just because you are/were in the forces doesn't mean your opinion is any more valid than anyone elses. I was in the forces too, I deployed, but that doesn't mean I regard the Taliban as "my" enemy, especially going about my daily business. For the vast majority of people living in the UK the Taliban don't effect their lives one bit. @Dr Manhattan just seems to be against power projection by western governments. That does not make him stupid/troll/immature.


----------



## alan_wilson (Feb 25, 2012)

Bear2012 said:


> I'm more saying that lads would put others before themselves if it ment gettin someone back safely...just Cus its a job makes it no less of an act
> 
> I 100000% agree with your last point, the women at home, mother or father
> 
> That should never be forgotten


----------



## Bear2012 (Jan 19, 2012)

alan_wilson said:


> It is hard for us being away from home but for them they do an outstanding job and unpaid. Hard on us but harder on them at times. :beer:


----------



## KRIS_B (Apr 17, 2011)

alan_wilson said:


> Well.
> 
> I've served. My brother served, my three cousins are in Afgan now, and their dad just got back.
> 
> ...


Bang in the Billy's mate wish I'd of had the time to write something like that!


----------



## Skye666 (Apr 13, 2013)

Rubes said:


> I haven't really managed to go through all of the pages of this thread however I'm slightly doubtful that a person's occupation automatically makes them a hero.
> 
> I will say though that being a solider, gives more opportunities for heroism than other careers.
> 
> As for the way in which the individual died, iirc it's was just an incidence of being the wrong place at the wrong time as opposed to noble martyrdom.


Well coming in to the room and having an opinion when u openly admit u haven't followed the thread sorry but if u can't be ****d to read don't be ****d to throw a half wit opinion in...it's rude!


----------



## Rubes (Sep 4, 2011)

Skye666 said:


> Well coming in to the room and having an opinion when u openly admit u haven't followed the thread sorry but if u can't be ****d to read don't be ****d to throw a half wit opinion in...it's rude!


I've now read all the pages. My opinion hasn't changed so I'm not sure how that's affected anything. But I apologize if I've offended you. I understand it's a sensitive issue.

It's my opinion. But as someone has said earlier, it's not my right to deny others (his son for example) the opportunity to see him as a hero.


----------



## essexboy (Sep 7, 2008)

Dr Manhattan said:


> See this is where we disagree.
> 
> To me, dying for such reasons isn't brave or noble. It's foolish and a waste.
> 
> But then, the latter doesn't have quite the same ring if used for a recruitment drive.


Is this a general comment or a specific comment about Afghanistan?


----------



## latblaster (Oct 26, 2013)

So anymore seditious comments anyone? :lol:


----------



## mikep81 (Oct 8, 2010)

Fvck there's some major confusion in here about the difference between the Taliban and international terrorists.


----------



## gycraig (Oct 5, 2008)

mikep81 said:


> Fvck there's some major confusion in here about the difference between the Taliban and international terrorists.


there either international terrorists or we are not fighting to defend our own country which is the opinion that keeps being spouted in this thread.


----------



## dirtymusket1 (May 24, 2008)

Of course they are, They put their lives at risk EVERY day so you and i don't have to.................

When was the last time YOU got shot at or blown up by an IED in work?????????????????????????


----------



## Ashcrapper (Jul 3, 2008)

dirtymusket1 said:


> Of course they are, They put their lives at risk EVERY day so you and i don't have to.................
> 
> When was the last time YOU got shot at or blown up by an IED in work?????????????????????????


last Wednesday, was one of them days. Got home late too


----------



## gycraig (Oct 5, 2008)

vetran said:


> are soldiers heroes? hmm, i no a lot of guys that have come out of the forces and end up downtown thinking they are the bees, getting p*ssed causing trouble and trying to prove themeselves, proper t*ts, the heroes are the lads that have been in proper combat and been affected by it all, ie why the fck go fight for your country then come back and start trouble with your own


worked in a few night clubs mate and whenever you got a "Group of squaddies in" you knew 9 times out of 10 a fight would kick off be it there fault or not.

hard for me to view them as heroes when iv had to help bouncers drag 5 of them them off a lad in a nightclub over something as stupid as a spilt pint. always intimidating to other customers when theres a group of them and it wasnt exactly a rare occurence either.


----------



## gycraig (Oct 5, 2008)

dirtymusket1 said:


> Of course they are, They put their lives at risk EVERY day so you and i don't have to.................
> 
> When was the last time YOU got shot at or blown up by an IED in work?????????????????????????


iv been robbed at knife point at work, my mum has been robbed at knife point at work, iv also been mugged at work. am i a hero ?


----------



## Ashcrapper (Jul 3, 2008)

gycraig said:


> iv been robbed at knife point at work, my mum has been robbed at knife point at work, iv also been mugged at work. am i a hero ?


been blown up by an IED?


----------



## dirtymusket1 (May 24, 2008)

gycraig said:


> iv been robbed at knife point at work, my mum has been robbed at knife point at work, iv also been mugged at work. am i a hero ?


I was robbed at knifepoint working in a mobile fish and chip van when i was 10 years old and i dont think im a hero

Which part of "When was the last time YOU got shot at or blown up by an IED in work" did you NOT understand??????????????????????


----------



## blackfairie (Mar 13, 2013)

In my mind anyone who is willing to leave there family they love and go fight for there country and know they may never come back home again is a major hero in my eyes, especially since I would never have the courage to do something like that I am very glad there are men and woman who are brave enough to do what I cannot. I don't know the full story behind lee rigby but if he was willing to defend his country then yes he is definitely a hero to me.


----------



## Paisleylad (Jan 22, 2013)

dirtymusket1 said:


> I was robbed at knifepoint working in a mobile fish and chip van when i was 10 years old and i dont think im a hero
> 
> Which part of "When was the last time YOU got shot at or blown up by an IED in work" did you NOT understand??????????????????????


At 10?

Lol..hard knock life


----------



## Ashcrapper (Jul 3, 2008)

dirtymusket1 said:


> I was robbed at knifepoint working in a mobile fish and chip van when i was 10 years old and i dont think im a hero
> 
> Which part of "When was the last time YOU got shot at or blown up by an IED in work" did you NOT understand??????????????????????


so you have to have been shot at or blown up to be a hero? therefore that would suggest Lee Rigby isn't a hero dirtymusket1 because as far as I'm aware a sharp instrument was used in the horrible incident he sadly suffered.


----------



## Ackee&amp;Saltfish (Mar 18, 2011)

dirtymusket1 said:


> I was robbed at knifepoint working in a mobile fish and chip van when i was 10 years old and i dont think im a hero
> 
> Which part of "When was the last time YOU got shot at or blown up by an IED in work" did you NOT understand??????????????????????


We've got an xbox 360 with C.O.D in the staff room at work does that count?


----------



## dirtymusket1 (May 24, 2008)

Ashcrapper said:


> so you have to have been shot at or blown up to be a hero? therefore that would suggest Lee Rigby isn't a hero dirtymusket1 because as far as I'm aware a sharp instrument was used in the horrible incident he sadly suffered.


When i replied to the post , it was entitled "Are soldiers hero's"

Maybe that d1ck that moves in and out of your left ear on your avatar should be growing out of the middle of your forehead because anyone who disputes the fact that people who put their lives on the line day and daily for our benifit are surely d1ckheads

Have a nice day


----------



## Ashcrapper (Jul 3, 2008)

dirtymusket1 said:


> When i replied to the post , it was entitled "Are soldiers hero's"
> 
> Maybe that d1ck that moves in and out of your left ear on your avatar should be growing out of the middle of your forehead because anyone who disputes the fact that people who put their lives on the line day and daily for our benifit are surely d1ckheads
> 
> Have a nice day


that isnt me in the avatar mate. it's a cartoon drawing. did you go and watch Pacific Rim this afternoon by any chance?


----------



## gycraig (Oct 5, 2008)

dirtymusket1 said:


> When i replied to the post , it was entitled "Are soldiers hero's"
> 
> Maybe that d1ck that moves in and out of your left ear on your avatar should be growing out of the middle of your forehead because anyone who disputes the fact that people who put their lives on the line day and daily for our benifit are surely d1ckheads
> 
> Have a nice day


our benefit ?


----------



## dirtymusket1 (May 24, 2008)

blackfairie said:


> In my mind anyone who is willing to leave there family they love and go fight for there country and know they may never come back home again is a major hero in my eyes, especially since I would never have the courage to do something like that I am very glad there are men and woman who are brave enough to do what I cannot. I don't know the full story behind lee rigby but if he was willing to defend his country then yes he is definitely a hero to me.


Hear Hear !!!

R.I.P. Lee Rigby :sad:


----------



## Mish (May 1, 2011)

dirtymusket1 said:


> I was robbed at knifepoint working in a mobile fish and chip van when i was 10 years old and i dont think im a hero
> 
> Which part of "When was the last time YOU got shot at or blown up by an IED in work" did you NOT understand??????????????????????





dirtymusket1 said:


> Of course they are, They put their lives at risk EVERY day so you and i don't have to.................
> 
> *When was the last time YOU got shot at or blown up by an IED in work*?????????????????????????





Ashcrapper said:


> so you have to have been shot at or blown up to be a hero? therefore that would suggest Lee Rigby isn't a hero dirtymusket1 because as far as I'm aware a sharp instrument was used in the horrible incident he sadly suffered.


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## gycraig (Oct 5, 2008)

dirtymusket1 said:


> I was robbed at knifepoint working in a mobile fish and chip van when i was 10 years old and i dont think im a hero
> 
> Which part of "When was the last time YOU got shot at or blown up by an IED in work" did you NOT understand??????????????????????


i could of died doing my job which is the same thing ?


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## dirtymusket1 (May 24, 2008)

gycraig said:


> i could of died doing my job which is the same thing ?


So you dedicated your life to defending queen and country wherever in the world it was necessary to send you or?????????????

What exactly were you doing for work at the time?


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## Mish (May 1, 2011)

dirtymusket1 said:


> So you dedicated your life to defending queen and country wherever in the world it was necessary to send you or?????????????
> 
> What exactly were you doing for work at the time?


He was delivering pizzas to starving benefit scum to put money in his Afghani boss's pocket to send back home to fund the war against 'our boys'


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## gycraig (Oct 5, 2008)

dirtymusket1 said:


> So you dedicated your life to defending queen and country wherever in the world it was necessary to send you or?????????????
> 
> What exactly were you doing for work at the time?


i was working in a bookies for one and delivering pizzas for the other one. its just a job to them a dangerous one but a job. iv not met a single person in the army who joined "to protect my country"


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## dirtymusket1 (May 24, 2008)

Mish said:


> He was delivering pizzas to starving benefit scum to put money in his Afghani boss's pocket to send back home to fund the war against 'our boys'


OHHHHHHHHHHH i am really really sorry, clearly gycraig is a hero of the highest order........

Dont know what i was thinking..........

must have been the caveman cider :w00t:


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## Paisleylad (Jan 22, 2013)

Mish said:


> He was delivering pizzas to starving benefit scum to put money in his Afghani boss's pocket to send back home to fund the war against 'our boys'


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## dirtymusket1 (May 24, 2008)

Paisleylad said:


> View attachment 128831


Paisleylad, ur a bad man ! :whistling:


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## gycraig (Oct 5, 2008)

dirtymusket1 said:


> OHHHHHHHHHHH i am really really sorry, clearly gycraig is a hero of the highest order........
> 
> Dont know what i was thinking..........
> 
> must have been the caveman cider :w00t:


AH i must have missed the bit where i have said im a hero ?


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## dirtymusket1 (May 24, 2008)

gycraig said:


> i was working in a bookies for one and delivering pizzas for the other one. its just a job to them a dangerous one but a job. iv not met a single person in the army who joined "to protect my country"


OK, when you signed up to work in the bookies and to deliver pizza's did you agree to give up your life (if necessary) for your queen and country?

No???

Then you are NOT a hero irrespective of whether or not you were robbed at knifepoint

Sh1t happens, live with it (i have known this since i was 10)


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## gycraig (Oct 5, 2008)

dirtymusket1 said:


> OK, when you signed up to work in the bookies and to deliver pizza's did you agree to give up your life (if necessary) for your queen and country?
> 
> No???
> 
> ...


i didnt say i was a hero rofl.


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## dirtymusket1 (May 24, 2008)

gycraig said:


> AH i must have missed the bit where i have said im a hero ?


You didn't say you were a hero you stated that you had been robbed at knifepoint and asked the question "am i a hero?"

My answer to that question was NO

Simples :thumb:


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## N666T (Sep 4, 2010)

i was in the forces(army)for 12 years served in the 1st gulf war , 3 tours of NI , and served in bosnia and sierra leone i dont consider myself a hero , i was doing a job i liked


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## dirtymusket1 (May 24, 2008)

N666T said:


> i was in the forces(army)for 12 years served in the 1st gulf war , 3 tours of NI , and served in bosnia and sierra leone i dont consider myself a hero , i was doing a job i liked


And that is exactly why you ARE a hero :thumbup1:

Thankyou !


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## mikep81 (Oct 8, 2010)

gycraig said:


> there either international terrorists or we are not fighting to defend our own country which is the opinion that keeps being spouted in this thread.


Not really. The Taliban have not attacked the UK or any country outside of Afghanistan, at least as far as we know anyway. They do, or did, however allow their country to be used as a training base for multiple terrorist organisations. Our beef was initially with Al Qaeda and the Taliban for harbouring them. By being in Afghanistan now we are preventing that from happening, and other countries in the area have followed suit, which is disrupting international terrorist organisations in the area and in turn protecting the UK. Although some argue now that the lone wolf attack scenario poses a greater threat as its harder to prevent!


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## steeve (May 29, 2008)

I won't read through all of this thread but I will give my 2 cents worth. Whether or not a soldier is a hero is only relevant as to what they do in battle. It is the actions and decisions of those who instruct and lead them that is often cowardly and downright irresponsible.


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## Guest (Jul 13, 2013)

Anyone can be a hero , doing a certain ' job' does not automatically make you one.


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## latblaster (Oct 26, 2013)

The word "some" is often very appropriate in its usage.

Some soldiers are heros.

Some Policeman are heros.


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## laurie g (Nov 28, 2008)

No not heros, those who were drafted in the first and second world wars, ie had no choice, that literally were saving our country i would say were heros. Having worked on military bases i have seen the so called would be heroes and the majority are jumped up chavs who want to kill something, little nobbers.

A hero for me is a selfless person who does something entirely to help someone who may need their help, in what ever form.


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## latblaster (Oct 26, 2013)

laurie g said:


> No not heros, those who were drafted in the first and second world wars, ie had no choice, that literally were saving our country i would say were heros. Having worked on military bases i have seen the so called would be heroes and the majority are jumped up chavs who want to kill something, little nobbers.
> 
> *
> A hero for me is a selfless person *who does something entirely to help someone who may need their help, in what ever form.


Yes, it is about "Selfless Giving" putting the needs of others before yourself, but not sacrificing yourself in the process.


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## Zara-Leoni (Mar 12, 2007)

Rubes said:


> I thought the person meant something like (possibly underpaid) research on pest-resistant, high nutrient foods.


Genetically modified crops.... Yes.... thats simply marvellous for *mankind*.... shame about the rest of the planet though eh?


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