# with strength comes size?



## warren (Jun 16, 2008)

after reading about on here i have come to my opinion that with decent strength will come decent size, am i thinking to simplistic? wat are your veiws? am i misunderstanding it? just i ave alos read the best rep range for hyperthrophy is the 8-12 range and strength is lower around the 5 mark . so am i wrong with the assumpion i have made regarding strength and size? or am i right if the trainer is a beginner/ not been a very serious trainer :whistling:


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2009)

Get stronger at lifting weights using muscular contractions not ligament and highly enhanced cns firing and yes you will get larger.


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## Spangle1187 (Jul 27, 2006)

Yes and No lol

As you get stronger you should increase in size but I know a couple of guys who are a lot stronger than bigger guys but... they are bigger than the average guy on the street.


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## dmcc (Nov 25, 2007)

I heard once "a big muscle is a strong muscle. A strong muscle is not necessarily big." I think that's right.


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## Mars (Aug 25, 2007)

dmcc said:


> I heard once "a big muscle is a strong muscle. A strong muscle is not necessarily big." I think that's right.


 :lol: , beat me, "A bigger muscle is not always a stronger muscle, but a stronger muscle is always a bigger muscle" cannot remember who said this originally but it's true.


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## dmcc (Nov 25, 2007)

Um but Mark your saying is the opposite of mine :lol:


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## Mars (Aug 25, 2007)

I remember, it was me:lol:

http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/steroid-testosterone-information/41297-why-does-gear-make-you-stronger.html


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## Mars (Aug 25, 2007)

dmcc said:


> Um but Mark your saying is the opposite of mine :lol:


 :lol: damn Darren, got it the wrong way round again.


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## dmcc (Nov 25, 2007)

Yeah but someone else must have told you


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## Mars (Aug 25, 2007)

dmcc said:


> Yeah but someone else must have told you


I'm so bored i'm trying to find out who's quote it actually is.:laugh:


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## warren (Jun 16, 2008)

well im only 12st at the moment at 5'11''. and my lifts are terrible, so am i right in thinking concentrate on uping my weights with a strength routine will help me gain. ie will i gain more spending 6 months on a 3x10 routne lifting mediocre weights, as that is a hypertrophy range of reps, or more spending 6 months on a strength routine and building up so after 6 months my lifts are heavier and in a better position to start a hypertrophy based programme

thanks


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## stone14 (Mar 24, 2005)

why not cycle your training routines? few month run bb type workouts, few month run strength/ powerlifting type workouts?

if you lifts are crap then i would concentrate on strength if thats what you want.

to get big, lift big and eat big. i think you will get bigger quicker if you are stronger


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## flapjack (Mar 1, 2008)

"A stronger muscle is a bigger muscle" Bruce Lee (I think)


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## Stork (Jun 21, 2008)

Con said:


> Get stronger at lifting weights using muscular contractions not ligament and highly enhanced cns firing and yes you will get larger.


this.

Strength and size are different things, though they are inexorably linked.

- Size is due to the number of muscles fibres in a muscle and the size of said fibres, it's increased by breaking down fibres and building new ones.

- Strength is due to CNS (central nervous system) firing (like Con said) which can be improved by low-rep training, and ligament placements which you can't change.

Obviously as you do strength training you'll also break down muscle fibres and increase your size, and likewise when size training you'll also be training your CNS to fire more effectively.

That said, there are examples of skinny people who can do much more than it looks like they should be able to, like Bruce Lee or that Hungarian Olympic lifter ('the muscle-less wonder').


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## warren (Jun 16, 2008)

cool well i think i will concentrate on upping my strength for now, 5x5 style, im still having a problem choosing a routine. as alot of routines in mags or on the net are general purpose routines and i dont know if they will suit, i feel like i am aiming to do too little. any recomendations??


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## dmcc (Nov 25, 2007)

5x5 is good for strength. Concentrate on the three big lifts plus overhead press for shoulders. Take a look at my journal to see a 5x5 in action, or search for Tall's thread about beginning lifting. That's an excellent routine.

Essentially, work out three days a week. *For example:*

Day 1 - Push. Bench press 5x5, overhead press (5x5 or 3x6), dips or pushdowns for triceps.

Day 2 - Pull. Deadlifts 5x5, chins, rows (say 3x8 on both). Maybe some biceps curls.

Day 3 - Legs. Squats 5x5, straight-leg deadlift 3x6.

Doesn't look like a lot, but if you do it right it'll be all you need.


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## warren (Jun 16, 2008)

cool, thanks, can i ask why 5x5 on some and 3x8/6 on others?


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## dmcc (Nov 25, 2007)

Just an example that I found worked for me. Plus, 5x5 is pretty intense and you can't use it for every exercise or your CNS will burn out. 5x5 for the core lifts, the big ones, then 2 or 3 sets with slightly higher reps for the assistance exercises. Search for Tall's thread as I suggested.


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## warren (Jun 16, 2008)

thanks for that really helps, and makes sence reps cheers mate


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## dmcc (Nov 25, 2007)

http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/getting-started/28936-basic-compound-routine-beginners.html

That's the thread I was referring to.


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## warren (Jun 16, 2008)

ok, here i go lol.

*pull*

*deadlifts - 5x5*

*chins - 3x8*

*1arm db rows - 3x8*

*bb curls - 3x8*

*legs*

*squats - 5x5*

*leg curl - 3x8*

*calf raises - 3x8*

*push*

*incline bench - 5x5*

*shoulder press - 3x8*

*dips - 3x8*

think i will give this a go pretty much the same as the one tall posted hopefully this will get my numbers up. and my legs some size lol. my fiance says i have chicken legs, and i have never realised how small they are, untill i tried and can nearsl get my hand around my ankle lol


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## Tall (Aug 14, 2007)

warren_1987 said:


> ok, here i go lol.
> 
> *pull*
> 
> ...


W,

Thats fine but you need to fix *WHY* you struggle to SLDL...


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## dmcc (Nov 25, 2007)

Tall said:


> W,
> 
> Thats fine but you need to fix *WHY* you struggle to SLDL...


He's not said that he does struggle. Or have I missed something?


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## ba baracuss (Apr 26, 2004)

MXD's mate is supposedly not huge but lifts mental weights, while I've seen routines of people on here who use lots of gear and lift similar weights to me - I don't use gear (yet anyway) and am not mega strong either.

Basically - 5x5 is for strength, 3x10 is size, but of course we all respond differently.


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## warren (Jun 16, 2008)

thanks for the check, i have always thought i just have bad knees, but maybee its my form. it feels fine when i am doing them but the next day i never feel any soreness on my legs but more my lower back and behind my knees. i have always neglected my legs which is another big reason i have not progressed aswell as i should have. where exactly do the sldl affect, as like i said i feel it little on my legs. also what depth do you guys recomend for squats, ass to grass or 90 degree? thanks


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## warren (Jun 16, 2008)

dmcc said:


> He's not said that he does struggle. Or have I missed something?


yeah mate it was in a pm i sent tall ,


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## martin brown (Dec 31, 2008)

What you need to realise is that training for a purpose is far more productive. The reason MOST people should train to get stronger is that it is far more easily measured than size.

Novice/intermediate lifters benefit greatly from a 5x5 or 3x8 routine based around geting stronger, beacuse without a doubt you will get bigger in the process.

There are not very many big benchers around, but I guarantee they all have big chests, delt and triceps, and probably a big back and traps too. Just like all big squatters have big legs. There isn't a small 500lbs raw bencher or squatter that I've ever heard of.

So get stuck into the squats and go as low as you can.

It is only when your training specifically for 1RM powerlifting and using equipment like shirts and suits that this slightly starts to change. Even then, I do very few reps now and I've got bigger not smaller over the past 12 months.

M


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## flapjack (Mar 1, 2008)

I am not trying to jack Warrens thread, but this seems to fit here so here goes.

My current goal is to greatly increase my strength and hopefully get a bit more size, but mostly want the strength. I am mixing some very low rep heavy stuff followed by higher reps on following exercises.

So for example on leg day

Squats - warm up sets and then 4 sets of 2 very heavy

Front squats - 3 sets of 8

SLDL - 3 sets of 8

Calf raises - sh1t my legs are going into a massive cramp think I will go for a slow walk on the treadmill and then go home:lol:

similar sort of set up on pull day and push day.

I hope this will increase strength and should also build a bit of muscle mass.


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## warren (Jun 16, 2008)

yeah , too true. i tink my numbers at the moment will be rougly these estimates

bench - 50kg

squat - 60kg

deadlift -70kg

i know pathetic as i weigh like 75kg,


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## dmcc (Nov 25, 2007)

warren_1987 said:


> yeah , too true. i tink my numbers at the moment will be rougly these estimates
> 
> bench - 50kg
> 
> ...


We all start somewhere. Just over a year ago I was struggling to pull 115kg. Today I pulled 240 for 3.


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## chrisj22 (Mar 22, 2006)

I would say so, yes.

Powerlifters aren't small are they.


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## dmcc (Nov 25, 2007)

chrisj22 said:


> I would say so, yes.
> 
> Powerlifters aren't small are they.


Yeah look at that Terry Hollands, he's a right weed. :lol: :lol:


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## warren (Jun 16, 2008)

am i right in thinking my lifts should go up fairly fasst in the first month or two? about 1 year ago i was benching 85kg, squating 95kg and deadlifting 115kg would i make a fast jump back to these types of numbers?


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## dmcc (Nov 25, 2007)

Muscle memory will no doubt come into play and you should see a quick enough progression. I really found, though, that good form and confidence is equally important.


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## chrisj22 (Mar 22, 2006)

dmcc said:


> Yeah look at that Terry Hollands, he's a right weed. :lol: :lol:


 :lol: yeah, he could do with taking in more calories, the skinny bastard! :laugh:


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## glanzav (Sep 11, 2008)

strength = speed x power

when you look to increase size as arnold and greats would say you want big muscles you have to lift have forced reps even, even if you do lose a lil technique but dont take the pee with it no good these half movements and things.

but then when you are training to this level its so vital to get your nutrition right to repair the muscle and give it the best environment for growth

but i also do feel it is impossible to train like this all off season pushing urself one better every session iv tried and iv caused injuries and iv also picked up illness along the way which sets me back again

i no guys though who are knocking on now and are big guys so once you got your size its just all about maintance if your happy where your at but i no they still pump the gear into them big time too


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## warren (Jun 16, 2008)

was also wondering what you guys would recommend barbell or dumbbell? for shoulder press and benchpress.


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## glanzav (Sep 11, 2008)

do a week of each cant go wrong then can you

make yourself strong in all areas with no weak points


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## dmcc (Nov 25, 2007)

Personal preference I think. I prefer BB as the DB's in my gym stop at 45kg, and I find heavy DB's awkward to manoeuvre by myself for shoulders.


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## warren (Jun 16, 2008)

is using the smith mahine a bad idea , as i train alone and usualy in the morning when it is empty so struggle to get a spot , which is a pain when training for strength as it means i have to stop reps early and cant push to failure. tata why i usually ue the db as i can drop them down if needed.


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## dmcc (Nov 25, 2007)

The smith has its place, but as the weights get heavier it can be very easy to damage your shoulder. I used the smith for a bit and I am sure it exacerbated my existing rotator cuff injury.


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## Parker5000 (Mar 14, 2009)

It defo aint just the size of the guns! I'm a feather weight at 13st so i'm pretty biased but hey if ya can press your body weight 5 times i'd say ya doin ok.


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## warren (Jun 16, 2008)

i have a mate who is a free lance rock climber ( no ropes) he is 6' 80kg but his strength is remarkable. im not too sure what he would pull on traditional exersices but i have seen the guy climb and he can pull his bw with 1 arm when his grip is limited. i know to gain i will have to have a diet sorted also. but weather i go mega strict is another matter. im moving to greece for 6 months and want to enjoy my time there aswell, so dont want to spend all my time cooking and training. but i will eat hearty and get my protien in


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## stone14 (Mar 24, 2005)

free weights are best warren, imo if you train alone try and do as many sets as you can with free weights then go into the smith machine to do you last set(s) in there for your safety.

or can gym staff not spot you for your last few reps?

i would definatly use a power rack for squats, just set the pins at the corret high and squat with the bar.

i wouldnt squat in smith machine as your movement is restricted to up and down and i dont think you will use your stabilizing muscles which will be working if using free weights.

free weight is harder but is better and you will progress more than with machines imo


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## warren (Jun 16, 2008)

thanks for the in put, i only have 1 week left at my current gym before i move to greece so hopefully the gym there will have a squat rack as the one we ahave at the moment is just a stand, so if you are putting the bar back you have to be accurate to get it in the slot, its not a proper rack more a bar stand, so i will have to use the smith for now. i have been to the gym today and was really dissapointed with my results. but i knew they would be poor.

push day

flat bb bench.

not inc warm up set, 5 sets as follows. 50kg

5-5-5-5-5

the last set was nervy but i think it was right may add 5 kg next time as, i started with 60kg but could only lift it fast with poor form.

-----

overhead bb press ( smith machine )

5 sets as follows not inc warm up - 30kg

5-5-5-4-3

-----

bodyweight dips

3 sets of 8

8-7-5

this isnt a log jusst a note , to show where im starting , i wont have too much net acces over there but will try keep a log.

also i was wondering, *do i stil up the weight each week if i did not compleate the full 5x5 previous session, or do i wait untill i can ?*


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## dmcc (Nov 25, 2007)

If it feels light, up the weight. Even if it's only 2.5kg. For a long time, I was doing something like this:

Week 1: 2x5 @ 100, 3x5 @ 105

Week 2: 5x5 @ 105

Week 3: 3x5 @ 105, 2x5 @ 107.5

etc etc. It worked.


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## warren (Jun 16, 2008)

thanks mate, i should be able to up the benc to 55kg and the oh press to 32.5kg, dont want to jump too much on the ohp as 2 times i had to hook the ba earlier than i wanted, but i didnt class them as reps


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## warren (Jun 16, 2008)

well i had my pull day yesterday and it has killed me lol. i didnt even bother with the bi curls as the other exercises done me. yet again i was a bit dissapointed with my wide grip pull ups but was bit happier with my deads.

deads.

all 5x5 compleate at 80kg

wide grip pull ups

1x7 1x6 1x6 at bw minus 20kg im 75kg. shamefull i know

bent over 1 arm rows. 25kgdb

1x8 1x7 1x7

cheers guys, thought id just put these on and in 6 months then i can pull this thread up and compare,


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