# Insulin how good?



## rhino1

i have previous cycles using steroids behind me but am now looking into the use of insulin.

how good is insulin in bulking , imean can you compare it to gains that you could get of test if used properly.

can anyone give me an idea of what the use of insulin will do to the body if on a bulk again whether its used with steroids or not.

cheers for help:thumbup1:


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## robdog

Insulin can be very effective indeed when bulking but its not to be messed with and research is the key because if missused you can get fat or even die.


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## kingprop

Before starting insulin id use metformin (Glucophage) Its a tablet given to type 2 diabetics that makes body tissues more sensitive to the insulin the pancreas produces. Its safer and much easier to get along with.


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## Andy1972

what exactlly is metformin and is it used post workout like slin?


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## kingprop

Type one diabetics have no insulin production from the pancreas and require insulin from injection or pump. Type two have either insufficient insulin production, or have so much body tissue that the insulin released isnt enough (obesity and some bodybuilders) - therefore leaving blood glucose levels higher than normal. Metformin Hcl (Glucophage) makes tissues more sensitive to insulin. More sensitive body tissues means more uptake of nutrients.

PWO, or with each meal is good.


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## Aftershock

^^^^ and the increase in insulin sensitivity only happens in muscle cells not fat cells :thumbup1:


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## Beans

^Thats somthing I didn't know.


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## Scottswald

where can you get this?

what are typical gains for gaining mass?

any links to the subject?


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## Guest

Scottswald said:


> where can you get this?
> 
> what are typical gains for gaining mass?
> 
> any links to the subject?


 TBF its a drug for advanced lifters mate just because its safer than slin it does not mean it can be used willy nilly.....

King prop what is the average dose per kg?


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## Tall

Scottswald said:


> where can you get this?
> 
> what are typical gains for gaining mass?
> 
> any links to the subject?


Scott - I've not tried Glucophage, but I've used Chromium and Vanadyl which are both GDAs (Glucose Disposal Agents) - just like Glucophage is.

I need to start checking my BGL more. Keep an eye on my log if you are interested and I'll try and update that more more regularly...


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## kingprop

http://www.rxlist.com/cgi/generic/metformi_ids.htm

The above is obviously concerning diabetics, not bodybuilders but personally ive seen great effects on 1500mgs/d. 500mgs after my three main meals. Whilst im happy with this dose I wont increase it.

Ive noticed a loss in bodyfat and also a loss of the tiredness I usually feel especially after lunch-time. There's an added fullness to muscles and definitely a feeling of well being; I just feel better within myself. Appetite has increased also.


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## joeyh1485

I think i read some were that it slows down the intake of carbs? Kingprop would that affect your post wo meal? As you want carb intake to be quick


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## kingprop

Well I wouldnt take it whilst dieting. It does decrease glucose production and sugar absorption so immediate PWO, looking for an insulin type hit, wouldnt be prudent but then I dont even use insulin PWO like that anymore. With PWO meal ~1-2 hours after the gym I cant forsee a problem unless carb restricting at other times.


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## joeyh1485

cheers mate very interesting

I am in no way shape or form ready for this drug I just find the subject interesting


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## pauly7582

along with a regular cycle like some test and Dbol. insulin was the most anabolic substance I've ever used. was only 4 weeks as well.


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## miles2345

i was under the impression that pwo shake with carbs, then 20 mins later, take insulin was ok?


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## pauly7582

Think it's slin, carbs straight away...hour later high carb meal for the second peak.


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## adrian1436114556

i think we all have different levels of sensativity to slin miles ,as you no depending on how many ius you are going to shoot after trainning ,will determine how many carbs you will need to cover you .

i do a whey dextrose glucose mix and 1 hour later eat high protien high carb and moderate fat meal.

i must admit king props angle sounds like a safer and posibly easier way ,and clearly he gets good results more food for thought here.

am i right in saying you did the nabba britain this year kingprop i think i might have walked in on you and steve back stage ,if so hi mate,if not just ignore me .


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## kingprop

Yes Adrian, that was me. Hope you are well buddy. Good luck at the Universe bro.

I found PWO insulin just didnt work for me very well. It brought on more hypos and when I raised insulin to above say 6ius I got bad stomach cramps and really bad ****s. Plus the amount of water that was retained in my body distended my stomach big time.

Ive mentioned this before, but if we do create a 'window of opportunity' by training hard and depleting muscles of glycogen - creating a natural environment of super absorption then great, use it. My opinion is your body can absorb only so much in this time and so adding in insulin immediately is counterproductive.

I leave it an hour or so before using it. I still have my PWO shake (I use a double helping of the formula found in Cyclone, but from bags of raw ingredients from myprotein) right after training, then use whey/WMS with insulin (Novorapid or Humalog) about an hour after that. I use my natural 'window' and then extend this further.


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## eurgar

what time of day do you train kingprop? i ask this as i train around 5-6pm train an hour which means I'm normally done for 6-7pm depending what time i start if i was to take slin as you say that would mean that i could be as late as 8pm having shot as i go to bed around 10.30 do you think its a bit late to take it?


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## Beans

Well I *think* you shouldn't sleep within 5 hours of using Insulin.

But dont quote me on that, im not 100% sure.

But I am sure, that if you're asleep, your not going to see the sings of Hypoglycemia.

You could end up in a coma, and eventualy die.


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## adrian1436114556

yes you are a bit unmistakable mate you are a big dude.

thanks mate but lets get real its a great ocation and im going along to say i done it.

mate i agree i do use the window of suposed opertunity, but i feel there is a days worth of nutriants leading up to that and to suck as much up as posible you sound like you got a good thing going there.

ive done 3 spaced slin jabs a day and experianced far more muscle full ness than the pwo protacol but i went a bit silly with the ius and got cought with the overlap effect .

i tolerate 10ius morning and 10ius pwo no problem.

i think your way is safer than multi shots of slin and the results are obviouse to see.

you say you have your stuff after 3 solid meals a day mate do you eat more solid meals and only choose to use it then or supliments between your solid food shakes ect.

im a 5 solid meals man a day and drinks inbetween.

if you dont mind me asking just out of interest mate what sort of carb protien fats ratios are you consuming on your frame and size,


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## kingprop

Well you most certainly wont look out of place up there buddy, enjoy yourself.

Well, I have no hard or fast rules on food intake whilst bulking. Im not as bad as Lee Priest, but then im nowhere near his standard either lol. As long as I hit 300g of good quality protein, adequate moderate GI carbohydrates (600-800g) and whatever fats as long as the ratio of saturates: unsaturates is of a level of 1:2 (WHO recommends 1:1 for health guidelines, and with the use of our 'supplements' increasing LDL cholesterol and triglycerides I err on the cautious side) (I also love oily fish which helps greatly - Salmon and mackerel) I go to bed happy. The only thing i note is the carb content of the meals I use slin with.

I use three main meals as breakfast is low fat and moderate GI - lots of oats, bran or oat bagel and jam, fruit and whey in water. Evening meal is also low fat (saturates) and moderate GI, lunch is the same. This protocol is followed for three or four days of the week. Mostly day on, day off.

I find I get along better with meal time insulin shots ranging between 4-6 ius and its taken me a while to reach that level and ill go no higher. Here's my theory on it:

We release insulin in response to blood sugar rises. High levels of blood sugar from high GI carbohydrate intakes can cause health problems, as we can see in obese people. Going from a period of low blood sugar (a.m and PWO) to one of exceptionally high B.S after taking exogenous insulin causes huge peaks and troughs of BS levels. This can lead to insulin resistance fast, very fast. High BS levels also impairs mineral absorption and can lead to Crohns disease and ulcerative colitis (Michael Francois take a bow) Sugar, in all its preferred PWO high GI form, especially in the amounts consumed by some to stop hypos, actually interferes with the absorption of protein. For those that need a reference on that one here you go:

Lee AT, Cerami A. "Role of Glycation in Aging." Ann N Y Acad Sci. Nov 21,1992 ;663:63-70.

We create a natural window PWO so use that, naturally, or at very most be very wary of insulin use at this time and keep it minimal. We know that low to moderate GI meals are more ideal for us and our health, where our insulin produced is slow and steady in response to a gradual rise in BS. Augmenting this response is my favoured regimen. You do not need a large amount of exogenous insulin, just 2ius is 20% more than naturally produced normally and like stated the body is capable of absorbing only so much food at any one time physiologically. The idea then is to enhance as much increased absorption as possible without this need for high GI sugar consumption.

Large amounts of insulin and large amounts of high GI sugar leads to large amounts of water retention which brings bloating, stomach distention, poor digestion and insulin tolerance imho.


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## drhighintensity

ive had 2 mates die from taking insulin.

so unless you know exactly what the **** your doing dont take it


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## coco

really?

just from insulin use alone?

from going hypo???

sorry to hear that mate.


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## kingprop

^^ and thats why 2-4ius (and so relatively small doses) is safer and wont kill you. Seeking huge gains from huge doses, combined with thinking huge intakes of high GI carbs is fine, is dangerous. 2ius is used in a hospital setting with anorexics to stimulate appetite on a regular basis. A fast car wont kill you, stupidity with it will.


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## Beans

It's like anything really.

It's when people take it that notch to far, that's when the **** hits the fan.


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## 3752

Excellant set of Posts KP...to many think that insulin is the route to being massive quickly i have used slin but not as much as many....i am going to give the metformin a try on this cycle...

i was down at castles today chatting with Warren he mentioned he knows you..

i am down all week so hopefully i will bump into you mate....


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## adrian1436114556

well mate that was very interesting thanks for sharing the knolage mate. having done the high ius and and high gi carbs to cover me everything you have said is right on the money mate.

i will go back to the 3 times protacol but not exceed 6ius ,when dietting is done.

well mate i nearly fell off the chair when you mentioned ulcerated colitis.

i had this condition in 1998 and had the same sequence of operations as micheal francois ,but i hasten to add i never touched slin before that

only in 2002 did i start using it.

yes paul you are right at first i did think it was a wonder drug .

i abused it but you live and learn ,hope fully others can take something from this.


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## eurgar

good post KP definitely made me think bout the way i use slin. Have just started using for what will be my 3rd time, currently i am doing 10iu AM and 10 iu PWO/PM. Which i think i might drop to 6iu after reading your posts on this thread. I would like to try the x3 per day protocol but think this would be difficult due to work. The other thing i might try is to take an hour after training like you said in previous post.

Have got a couple of questions 1.what time of day would be best to take my second shot on non training days? what i have been doing is taking around the same time as i would PWO. and 2. I am currently mixing both my AM and PWO shots with GH, if I was to take an hour after training would you still mix together or take GH immediately PWO and then slin an hour later?

hope this makes sense I'm not the best at putting things down on paper lol


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## kingprop

Thanks guys. I think this is the main debate regarding timing of shots we are discussing. We read that a time of PWO, or low BS, is the ideal time. Im not so sure.

Insulin is released, as we know, in response to a rise in BS. Having a low BS (3-4 mmol) is found at a time of preprandial (before food/meals) The argument for PWO shots is for super-absorption as said, and so the argument/advice for A.M is simply because of low BS and so more super-absorption (bigger rebound id guess) Again something I dont believe in.

Lets consider the timing of insulin shots and the advice given. Shoot slin, eat carbs, some say wait a while before eating carbs. Even one of my favourite internet resources for advice (Basskilleronline) says shoot slin, wait 5-10 mins then eat. Im sorry, but this is totally crazy and wrong beyond belief.

Not only do we then create a situation where you can seriously mess up (shoot slin, waiting for carb intake, phone goes, girlfriend being hassled by idiot in supermarket, you grab car keys and rush to her aid) Boom!

My mate was running late for work and did this. Shot slin as couldnt at work, was running late and as work is only 2 mins drive away thought id shake it up when I get there. Idiot crashed into the back of him and so by the time he'd exchange insurance details and got to work he was a mess.

Then of course you have the 'insulin did nothing for me' guys. Imagine shooting slin, you have low BS. Then you shake it up but the insulin is already becoming active so any sugar consumed is being sucked up immediately. Well then your body wont release its own supply as BS levels arent going up. You are using exogenous insulin at the expense of your own. The pancreas is producing nothing. As it would normally produce about 10ius in response to 70g glucose (Glucose Tollerance Test for Diabetes) then the 10ius you are shooting is the only insulin there. Nothing will happen growth wise except maybe a hypo after a while.

Insulin Aspart is a great example here (Novorapid) This stuff works so fast (10-20mins) that loads of guys I know mess up on it as its too quick. It can hit you like an express train as its very hard to get the amount of carbs in to actually counteract it. Shooting that then waiting means no natural production, but no BS there either for when its active.

A.M for me (7am) is when I get up and thats whey and water, tea with sugar (fructose), protein/MRP bar or chewy oat bar/flapjack, then out the house. Breakfast is next meal around 9.30am after dropping kids at school. That's insulin time number one, after ive eaten the meal.

With regards work time, get a humalog pen. Eat lunch, go off to bog for a jab, come back and make shake - whey/MPC, powdered oats or other mod/low GI carb source. Even a mixture of high GI and low GI is good - it gives moderate GI. Sip that over the next wee while. Always carry glucose tabs, just like diabetics do if required. Incidentally they only eat one or two if they feel hypo, not the whole packet, but then if you're not shooting insulin at time of low BS (well away from food/meals) you wont need that much.

Shooting times depends on whats convenient for you over the day. I train usually at 12 noon so my 9.30 shot is becoming much less active and plenty of food has been consumed. Id guess in an ideal world then if shooting up to 10ius/d+, and eating 5-6 meals per day then 2ius with/after each meal makes more sense. Its just that I only eat three (big) in one day, the rest is shakes.


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## kingprop

Pscarb said:


> Excellant set of Posts KP...to many think that insulin is the route to being massive quickly i have used slin but not as much as many....i am going to give the metformin a try on this cycle...
> 
> i was down at castles today chatting with Warren he mentioned he knows you..
> 
> i am down all week so hopefully i will bump into you mate....


Should be down tomorrow evening Paul, around 6pm.


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## hilly

So kingprop for some1 who is looking to use insulin for the first time what method/dosage/food types etc would you recommend to get the maximum benefit while being as safe as possible.

I have been researching slin for a while and will continue to research until maybe this time next year when i may look at trying some.

Ive read all the articles on here and else were so any inout is much aprreciated.


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## supercell

I think the only place for it in BBing is for very lean, hard gainers and when used sensibly and regularly it can help them enormously.

Mesomorphs with endomorphic tendancies or true endomorphs should leave well alone IMO.

Regular insulin users in the off season of the above body types will find it hard to get that grainy look come contest time.

However, if you aren't thinking of stepping on stage then its not really an issue and can be useful in pushing past sticking points.

I wont be using regularly again TBH but it was fun trying. It certainly made me achieve my heaviest off season weight!

I think using once a week on a stubborn bodypart as part of a refeed protocol could work well and maybe something worth considering in the future.

J


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## jjb1

ive thought of that once a week on a body part thing before

would you just do pwo shot or through the day with meals as you mention a refeed day


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## kingprop

supercell said:


> I think the only place for it in BBing is for very lean, hard gainers and when used sensibly and regularly it can help them enormously.
> 
> Mesomorphs with endomorphic tendancies or true endomorphs should leave well alone IMO.
> 
> Regular insulin users in the off season of the above body types will find it hard to get that grainy look come contest time.
> 
> However, if you aren't thinking of stepping on stage then its not really an issue and can be useful in pushing past sticking points.
> 
> I wont be using regularly again TBH but it was fun trying. It certainly made me achieve my heaviest off season weight!
> 
> I think using once a week on a stubborn bodypart as part of a refeed protocol could work well and maybe something worth considering in the future.
> 
> J


James. Firstly best of luck to you in a few weeks mate. Hope you arent putting your mind through too much un-needed stuff.

I hear what you are saying here. Fat cells being easily made but not possible to rid, only shrink. Unless you have lipo obviously, but what about the 'state' Lee priest et al get themselves into in the off season, and then the condition they can present themselves in on stage?

I know Mr. Ruhl (my other fave BB'er) has had problems condition wise in the past, perhaps explaining his 'retirement' but do you think once the fat cells are there (and as ive speculated, probably only through over consumption of high GI carbs around insulin/hypo fear time) that it would be impossible for those you describe to obtain circa 3% bodyfat once fat levels are increased so much?


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## adrian1436114556

ok i no i have exposed myself as a numpty for using way to much .

i think the conditioning thing is as james says is a body type related thing.

i personaly have come unstuck using slin on a diet and wont be going down that road ever again .

but i have achived dry condition personaly after a offseason of slin and high mix of carbs.

as you say on high refuel day there is saftey,and i use it carbing up now.

maybe a diet with a high fat ratio in pre contest with slin could effect condition as aposed to less fats ,i dont no just a thoughts.


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## musclemorpheus

KP

I have one question how long can you stay on metformin for I have previously taken insulin many years ago..

and only ever taken this for 4 weeks maximum,

How much Does HGH affect your bodies own natural insulin production,

Because I believe we need to taken additional insulin to get the best from your HGH..

Will the metformin be on a par with Insulin in this case..

As I can get hold of both products...


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## kingprop

As long as you like mate. Its being touted as a 'life extension' type drug now, or whatever they call them.

I cant give you an answer on the rest mate as I dont think its universal. Trial and error here, but obviously starting from the bottom and working up especially with insulin.

Im experimenting now with small meal time slin shots followed by 500mgs metformin, with 5ius HGH/d (three times a week) Ill report any findings or problems. So far so good.


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## 3752

kingprop said:


> Trial and error here, but obviously starting from the bottom and working up especially with insulin.


most definatly agree with this....


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## kingprop

Will you be around later Paul? Ill be at castles for 6pm, hope we can catch up.


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## anabolic ant

i know the top guys and competitiors are using this stuff...but i'd be very scared and really wouldnt take it myself...people like king prop & pscarb & adrian etc seem to have a very good knowledge,scientific and experience wise....but as for the non-experienced,non competing chaps....i wouldnt bother,insulin is a very dangerous hormone as well as being the most anabolic!!!!

can go hypo/hyper....taken at wrong times etc can lead to coma n death....very important you find someone with kingprops knowledge or similar or leave it....stick with your steroids,hgh even t3,t4....even with t3,t4 you could end up taking them for the rest of your life!!!!

your body is a very sensitive and complex thing...there have been no peer reviewed scientific journal studies on large groups of people or for bodybuilding lengths of time to show that taking insulin etc is safe for taking for extended periods of time....and what effects it will have on you!!!

just like taking steroids...your body has many negative feedback loops and receptors all over the body interpret and recognise any outside input to the body,things can shutdown,be de-sensitised,even positive feedback loops where glucagon is released...and whatever else can happen...although most advanced bodybuilders seem to gain far more scientific information and doctors and endocrinologist help these days than us normal recreational BB ers...

if you really dont need it and dont possess the knowledge to do this stuff,dont do it...be careful,safe than sorry!!!!


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## 3752

kingprop said:


> Will you be around later Paul? Ill be at castles for 6pm, hope we can catch up.


yes mate i will be there at 6ish most probably on the treadmill


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## kingprop

Very, very, very good post. Exactly spot on. I just fear that as its so easily obtained, and cheap, and there's so much dodgy info on the net about its best protocol etc thats when trouble can arise.

Back to first post - Metformin is very good, and safer than insulin by far. Alpha lipoic acid and correct carb timing is also very good. We have our own insulin, use it better.


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## kingprop

Pscarb said:


> yes mate i will be there at 6ish most probably on the treadmill


Treadmill? Whats one of those then??

Ah, those things you walk on whilst looking at ladies. Cool.


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## noone75

I've used metformin with good results, especially if U combine it with kreatin.

I've also used insulin...I was a dumb*ss and didn't know U were supposed to shake the pen before using it...so it very nearly killed me, no telling how many IU's I took.


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## kingprop

hilly2008 said:


> So kingprop for some1 who is looking to use insulin for the first time what method/dosage/food types etc would you recommend to get the maximum benefit while being as safe as possible.
> 
> I have been researching slin for a while and will continue to research until maybe this time next year when i may look at trying some.
> 
> Ive read all the articles on here and else were so any inout is much aprreciated.


Pick two main meals which incorporate low GI foods (brown rice, w/meal pasta, whole protein foods, salad) have dilute protein shake with it adding in some powdered oats, and start with 2ius.


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## DB

Great thread guys..

Kingprop..

what are your veiws on fats and slin


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## supercell

kingprop said:


> James. Firstly best of luck to you in a few weeks mate. Hope you arent putting your mind through too much un-needed stuff.
> 
> I hear what you are saying here. Fat cells being easily made but not possible to rid, only shrink. Unless you have lipo obviously, but what about the 'state' Lee priest et al get themselves into in the off season, and then the condition they can present themselves in on stage?
> 
> I know Mr. Ruhl (my other fave BB'er) has had problems condition wise in the past, perhaps explaining his 'retirement' but do you think once the fat cells are there (and as ive speculated, probably only through over consumption of high GI carbs around insulin/hypo fear time) that it would be impossible for those you describe to obtain circa 3% bodyfat once fat levels are increased so much?


But where does Priest always come unstuck? In his back and glutes and to a degree his quads. Although he is without doubt one of the best BBers the world has seen he never gets these areas really hard. Now IMO that was to do with his early days of bulking up to a rediculous weight. These fat cells were laid down and now cant be shifted.

He has learnt that this approach is not the best and now stays far leaner off season (plus he has to fit into his racing cars!!)

Ruhl is another guy who although massive is never shredded. Is this because of slin use, who knows, it could just because he tries to play the size game and never really gets right down and strict on his dieting.

You have to remember I am being really picky here. These 2 guys I have mentioned are far better than I would or could ever be, but I think with a more sensible approach off season both could have/would display crisper looks come contest time.

There is no place for slin when dieting..NO PLACE!! Some use it to slip into ketosis more quickly but for me they are asking for trouble....Slipping into a coma could be more akin to the results you are likely to achieve.

J


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## supercell

jjb1 said:


> ive thought of that once a week on a body part thing before
> 
> would you just do pwo shot or through the day with meals as you mention a refeed day


I think both could work well. The only concern is having to eat clean all day on a refeed approach if the second protocol is adopted. I for one like to have a clean refeed but I will also have my cheat on this day too, and shuttling the insane amount of fats I stick away at that one meal would be very detrimental to my conditioning.

For me it would probably be 5ius slin/25mcgs IGF after cardio pre meal 1 and then 10iu slin/10ius GH PWO, eating clean up to and including 5 hours after the last shot combo, then hit the cheat meal big stylee in the evening when all is well out of the system.

J


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## supercell

DB said:


> Great thread guys..
> 
> Kingprop..
> 
> what are your veiws on fats and slin


Sorry to Hijack.

Clean fats in moderation (EFA's) are fine, its the trans and sat fats I would stay clear of like the plague. Just make sure you dont take in any bad fats around your shot and for around 3 hours after to give the slin a chance for clearance (remember here I am talking about fast acting slin, Novorapid, humalog etc, not the background slow release stuff taken once a day)

J


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## Delhi

As some of you know I dabbled in slin earlier in the year, now i am not saying slin is not effective etc but my experience was NOT a good one.

First time I took it all went well (4iu), no problems. Second time I went hypo (Started seeing blurred, panic etc). Third time same again (hypo). That was the last time I tried teh stuff and will be teh last time I try teh stuff.

Sorry but I want to live and see my kids grow up....................

I am possibly one of unfortunate guys who is extra sensitive I dont know, but my protocol was 100% spot on on all 3 occasions.

I will just have to achieve my goals without the use of slin.

I was once told that if you can still gain fat in the offseason you are not ready for slin...........might be "Some" truth in that.


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## Tinytom

James let me offer a rebuff to your theory. 

I cant be completely sure (of slin use) obviously but Dorian got pretty big in off season and he was always diced.

I could probably think of a few more but maybe its just down to genetics in terms of that.


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## DB

just bumping this as its a great thread


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## kingprop

supercell said:


> I think both could work well. The only concern is having to eat clean all day on a refeed approach if the second protocol is adopted.
> 
> J


But if only augmenting your own insulin release by say 2-4ius at each meal would the meal have to be that clean? Obviously it wouldnt be prudent to eat a fry up, but just more of the good stuff you were going to eat; or even just the same with more being taken up? The pancreas will release only so much in response to the blood sugar rise from the meal, then the exogenous 'little extra' extends this.

Take a metformin tablet too and you have a situation more suited to muscle gain and not fat. Plus the metformin will keep blood fats low in its action, and lower LDL cholesterol.


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## kingprop

Delhi said:


> As some of you know I dabbled in slin earlier in the year, now i am not saying slin is not effective etc but my experience was NOT a good one.
> 
> First time I took it all went well (4iu), no problems. Second time I went hypo (Started seeing blurred, panic etc). Third time same again (hypo). That was the last time I tried teh stuff and will be teh last time I try teh stuff.
> 
> Sorry but I want to live and see my kids grow up....................
> 
> I am possibly one of unfortunate guys who is extra sensitive I dont know, but my protocol was 100% spot on on all 3 occasions.
> 
> I will just have to achieve my goals without the use of slin.
> 
> I was once told that if you can still gain fat in the offseason you are not ready for slin...........might be "Some" truth in that.


Was it PWO slin and/or AM slin though mate? Taking slin at times of low blood sugar is when most have problems. Try letting your pancreas do its work first, then you do your extra after.


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## Aftershock

^^^^ So out of curiosity how long after your meal will you assume you have released your natural slin and bump the little extra in?


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## DB

Aftershock said:


> ^^^^ So out of curiosity how long after your meal will you assume you have released your natural slin and bump the little extra in?


yeah nice question.. so eg

Lunch: 200g chicken 80g brown rice, 5g oil and mixed veg. finished eating by 1pm exactly

what would be your protocol with this mate?


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## 3752

i have heard this theory of some fats can be eaten whilst others cannot now i eat clean when i use slin but what i cannot work out is how the injected slin knows to shuttle some fats and not others??


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## Tinytom

Pscarb said:


> i have heard this theory of some fats can be eaten whilst others cannot now i eat clean when i use slin but what i cannot work out is how the injected slin knows to shuttle some fats and not others??


Nanites.

Dont you watch star trek? Theres these little robots that the borg use to inject people and they travel round the body and Borgalise them.

They know where to go.

So......Nanites is my guess.

Do I win a prize? :thumb:


----------



## thestudbeast

Pscarb said:


> i have heard this theory of some fats can be eaten whilst others cannot now i eat clean when i use slin but what i cannot work out is how the injected slin knows to shuttle some fats and not others??


EFA's burn easily so will be used as a fuel source on a low carb diet, this will not apply with slin use at all!! The liver will already be full so this in combination with the rise in insulin will prevent its oxidization for energy and leave in the blood stream to be stored.

This is a good thing!

Yes you want EFA's to store as fat, its there in the fat cell that they activate fat loss via PPARS (Peroxisome proliferator-activated receptors). In short people who are naturally lean have high PPAR activation.

.................... or it could be them nanites


----------



## kingprop

The oral glucose tolerance test (OGTT) uses up to 70g glucose (80g dextrose or powdered glucose) so lets say for arguments sake 75g glucose. Over and above this level gives a false positive for diabetes ie blood sugar levels go too high when measured after 2 hours of consumption (the time it should take for BS levels to return to within normal range, in non diabetics) If it doesnt and stays high you are diagnosed as diabetic.

Therefore my argument is that PWO insulin use either will make you fat or wont do anything. If you consume 75g of a fast carbs, and shoot say 10ius of fast acting insulin; and if it takes 2 hours to return BS to normal anyway (OGTT) and the fast acting insulin will hit within 20-30 minutes depending on brand and type its either going to blunt your natural secretion of insulin from the pancreas by lowering BS too fast, or it will make you fat and full of water (especially if you also consume extra fast carbs (say 100g extra as you read that 1iu=10g sugar) as the body tissues (muscle) can take up only so much so the rest is turned to fat (stored energy) and all that extra sugar retains water as it moves along. Oh, and blunts protein (amino acid) uptake as it primary for the body to sort the high BS out first. Shooting slin then waiting for a hypo to begin means the pancreas will not release insulin, thereby nothing will happen except insulin tolerance developing quickly. Well, maybe death if your unlucky!

So surely lower doses of exogenous insulin would enable the tissues to take up as much as they can without you overspilling and getting fat? Once you get bigger and bigger muscle wise you could actually use more insulin, in fact you'd need too as more body tissues leads to type 2 diabetes (obese people or BB'ers) as the pancreas wont release more just because you've added loads of muscle/fat/tissue. The body will want to return to a homeostatic level. That could be the key then to growing past a genetic sticking point.

Just eating extra food when not using insulin, and not burning it off, makes you fat because of the overspill. Energy in v energy out, but we want more energy in to gain muscle weight and not fat weight. Increasing the uptake of nutrients is a good thing. Using exogenous insulin is the answer but using too much isnt IMHO.

So imo AM and PWO is too soon to use insulin. A low blood sugar level isn't the ideal time. A high, or post prandial time makes more sense to me. And minimal use of it too.


----------



## hilly

What you are saying kingprop makes sense but from what i gather people have been using slin pwo for years with very good results and not getting fat.

Would they have benefited more from doing it this way do you think??


----------



## kingprop

That may be true but what was available years ago? The fastest insulin was actrapid, but act rapidly it did not. Now Humalog, and more recently Novorapid was introduced. Now these are fast, and have a shorter duration. But same old protocol is being used.


----------



## Delhi

My protocol was PWO with humalogR, took shake and carbs (50 protien and 40g carbs), then 1 hour later solid meal containing the same.

I did blood test every 15 mins too LOL

TBH as I said earlier i think slin is out now for me.

IGF and GH sure, but slin no


----------



## Aftershock

kingprop said:


> So imo AM and PWO is too soon to use insulin. A low blood sugar level isn't the ideal time. A high, or post prandial time makes more sense to me. And minimal use of it too.


OK so coming back to the original question, how long after eating your breakfast or PWO meal would you wait before you assumed your body had released the majority of its natural insulin?

Because its at this point you are recommending a small shot of slin right?


----------



## MXD

kingprop said:


> That may be true but what was available years ago? The fastest insulin was actrapid, but act rapidly it did not. Now Humalog, and more recently Novorapid was introduced. Now these are fast, and have a shorter duration. But same old protocol is being used.


Novo rapid peaks after 1.5 hours though. But has an onset of 10 mins.

There fore if you jab pwo have a high gi carb drink and the a meal an hour later, the pancreas wil still release the insulin for the high gi carbs post say 75g dex for 10iu (natty production).

Then 1.5 hours later the other 10iu peaks topping up your own insluin?

Also insulin pwo will instantly stop catabolic action, which is well worth its use directly pwo.


----------



## LordDecider

As a healthcare professional I have to urge EXTREME caution with the use of both oral hypoglycaemics and insulin. Insulin in particular, if used incorrectly, can be fatal, and I would be concerned that first-time users would be particularly susceptible to misuse. If you do take it please ensure that you have a source of rapidly absorbed glucose around. In the healthcare setting we also use products such as Hypostop (a glucose gel rubbed into the gums) or glucagon.

Play safe.

LD


----------



## kingprop

So use your natural production of insulin to stop catabolism. Why do you want so much extra then? Extra stopping? Super-hyper nutrient uptake? It doesnt happen. Depending on what your PWO meal is you have a peak of 10ius hitting you between 1 and 3 hours (this onset and duration has only been measured in diabetics btw) So if thats one hour you'll have a hypo as you've only eaten your 75gs carbs (enough to replenish glycogen stores depending on how hard you've worked out) and release your bodies 10ius, you will be fast going into low BS for the novorapid to take effect. Go home, have a shower and you will run into problems as the hot shower itself can have an effect on blood movement and speed up the hypo.

Unless you are drinking your PWO shake (50g whey iso, 75g WMS lets say) and then eating immediately (at the gym preferably) and cutting down dose, it just seems too risky for me. When humalog came along a lot of BB'ers messed up. Since Novorapid has, more have.

Your PWO meal consists of what? Protein and moderate GI carbs? That will take a while to raise BS levels. You may run into problems and then use sugar to combat your hypo. All that sugar will impair amino acid uptake.

10ius is a very large amount for you to be taking. You'll get fat, full of water, distended in the stomach or dead. Bet you dont get bigger. Especially with Novorapid.

If I was training in the evening I wouldnt use insulin. Depending on what time you're done, how hard you have worked and worked out during the day, what you've eaten during the day etc will all have a bearing on BS levels - and then you'll want to go to sleep at some point. I used too, but dont anymore and advise others not too.

All I am saying is that ive tried the post workout, silly amount thing and it did nothing but cause me trouble. Didnt make me any bigger in the way I wanted (muscular) Changing to minimal use at meal times (as meal is finished) and minimal means 2ius for most, has had much better results and virtually zero side effects.


----------



## jjb1

if you took blood test with and with out the post work out protocal and with this covered the whole 3 hour after injection of slin couldnt you figure out if this really is something really is in this?

i know some of the top guys have used slin massively and consistanty which helped take the sport to new levels of size some belive, have all these guys missed out on this info then?

if you watch ronnie in one of his videos he waits for a beeper to sound before tucking into his breakfast i was convinced this was slin use in the morning

from doing loads of reading myself i noticed alot of top guys taking slin maybe 4 times a day at 6 - 10iu shots and also shots pwo and this brings you into the years of humalog ect

with the post work out shot here i totally understand you have created a natural window and your body will suck up nutrition anyways but surely you may multiply this and force thew muscle to accept much more then your natural self could? creating a bigger window so to speak?

you seem to have massive knoledge on this kingprop and make alot of sense im just supprised no one else has targeted this problem..........


----------



## kingprop

It really is justan interest mate. Im learning and experimenting now after doing the 10iu PWO regimen. Im sure, and agree with posts here that its individual and down to genetics etc but im also sure that blanket advice concerning 'shoot slin then eat' is a recipe for disaster. With GH and IGF more readily available and cheaper than ever a lot of guys I meet are considering using them all together when off gear when physically it shouldnt even be a consideration for them.

With have the whole psyche to deal with when coming off gear, we understand we should let HPTA recover for our own health etc and im just scared as well that too many guys will mess up with the old protocol especially when using the faster insulins which have only just come available. Im not preaching to anyone, just want to discuss it. If we dont discuss and try alternative lower dose regimes, and more and more folk end up in A+E we will bring this to the news and end up shooting ourselves in the foot so to speak with all our 'special supplements'

Ive also nearly doubled my bodyweight in 15 years of bodybuilding, and had reached a plateaux in growth. I guess only time will tell if what im practicing currently will have a major effect. Whats for sure though is PWO large doses werent working for me and since switching to this it seems to be.


----------



## jjb1

its an important intrest though bro your totally right about gh igf1 slin becoming very common

i did alot of reading when i started slin and had some not so good results did more reading then had better ones but im really interested in slin shots with meals i posted a thread not long back as i was more cunfused with the fat intake while basically using slin all day but some mods gave some interesting points on it and info mentioning the explination of olympia sizes breakfasts being consumed with slin timing ect

if you get time could you list your current protocol ie

wake

meal 1

meal 2 (slin amount and timing to meal)

and so on.........

many thanks


----------



## kingprop

No worries. Currently choosing three days per week to use it. Mon/Wed/Fri. The week just gone has been only 4ius Humalog each meal 2xd. Ive also taken 500mgs metformin with these shots.

Meal one as described before is more of a grab and rush affair as im always in a hurry/lazy git and also any AM insulin shot before has left me in trouble at times especially when getting up toward 6-8ius. Its not good turning up to work sweating and shaking and looking pale faced. So its normally whey and water first thing. Cup of tea/coffee with fructose or sweetner. Banana or 2 occasionally. Maybe a yoghurt. Protein flapjack or bar to eat on way. Sometimes porridge if time allows. Consumed around 7.30am.

Meal two around 9.00-10am. This week used 4ius humalog. Ive been looking recently for a good supplement for this protocol and have bought 8 tubs of Myprotein MP Max weight gainer (where before I was mixing my own concoction up) It contains per 100g:

411 kCals

34g Protein (mixed sources)

46g Carbs (malto + ultra fine oats)

9.8g EFA's and MCT's (MCT's being why I chose it, I want to experiment this with them)

3.3g Fibre

So ive been eating 2 servings of this: http://www.ainsley-harriott.com/ainsley-harriott-cous-nutri.htm

100g = ~30g carbs (+~30g carbs from added extras)

and adding in sultanas, chopped dried apricots, raw chashews and diced turkey breast. Prepared the night before all in a tub ready to go. 500mgs metformin with first mouthfull.

And drink one and half servings (150g) of the weight gainer with water. I then shoot the 4ius once finished.

I train between 12-2pm usually. Drink carbs during (10% mix) Have PWO shake and PWO meal.

Meal four is around 4pm-4.30pm. Could be 2 jacket potatoes, tin beans, tin tuna. 500mgs metformin with first mouthfull.

Bang another shake in. Once done 4ius humalog.

Evening meal with the family 6pm (say fresh grilled mackerel + salad) something before bed, could be shake or whey + milk or another meal depends on how hungry I am.

I always have something on hand with me be it glucose tabs or fruit but the essence of it is to consume moderate GI foods all day keeping a constant in BS levels.

Other items used are 10ius blue top split into 2x5iu shots tues and thurs (20ius/w)

400mgs test prop mon/wed/fri (1200mgs/w)

The only other things I can use are test suspension (but hate daily jabs) Dbol (but hate the acne) and Tbol (cant get any!!)

Anything else - winny, anavar, deca, EQ, masteron, proviron, longer ester tests, I cant use as they give me cluster headaches due to being a DHT deriv, or hanging around too long in my system.

If my quads grow any, lol , ill be happy its working!


----------



## aussieboy

im in Long r3 Igf-1 and ive read up some people saying its best to do 4 weeks on igf-1 and for weeks on insulin.....??? is it bad to do it together?


----------



## Dragon555

kingprop said:


> 400mgs test prop mon/wed/fri (1200mgs/w)


Damn! no wonder your KingProp! lol can u take tren tho?

so if you were only shooting 2iu slin per shot could you get away with just a low Gi meal without a shake or would you still need a shake with every meal, how many 2iu shots would be enough to see good results? eg. if you done 1shot (2iu, after protein/carb meal) mon/wed/fri would that be enough or more?


----------



## kingprop

aussieboy said:


> im in Long r3 Igf-1 and ive read up some people saying its best to do 4 weeks on igf-1 and for weeks on insulin.....??? is it bad to do it together?


This will be the next thing to investigate. If you research you read that IGF can prevent the fat gain from insulin use, so it seems that the two could work well together.

With the fact that its long acting (IGF) compared to some insulins we use, and the fact that IGF lowers my blood sugar levels; coupled with the only evidence ive gained is from using IGF pre-workout and then the huge dose insulin (8-12ius) PWO regimen the only thing I noticed was that it didnt do anything more for me than just IGF use.

Trying it together again, which I will in future, I would emply the low dose insulin (2-3 times per day with meals) and IGF AM and again 12 hours later. The insulin would therefore be in between this.

The reason research will say do not do them together is the tissue desensitivity issue again. But then running a 3 days per week protocol, as with insulin only, should go some way to prevent or delay this onset.

Have a go mate, please report your findings here perhaps on a seperate thread. I for one would be very interested in any results. As always with these compound begin dose on the very low side and build up maybe also use the scales, body fat calipres and even someone elses opinion on body composition changes, before upping any dose schedule you dont think is working. Good luck mate.


----------



## kingprop

Dragon555 said:


> Damn! no wonder your KingProp! lol can u take tren tho?
> 
> so if you were only shooting 2iu slin per shot could you get away with just a low Gi meal without a shake or would you still need a shake with every meal, how many 2iu shots would be enough to see good results? eg. if you done 1shot (2iu, after protein/carb meal) mon/wed/fri would that be enough or more?


I can and have taken tren acetate before however my wife says that if I take it again she will divorce me! Ill assume I dont get on with it too well then. The fist hole has been plastered over in the wall though, lol.

Id say a sinlge 2iu shot once per day (3xw) would be where to begin. This is probably more suited to PWO meal times as the low dose wont bring you into hypo, you've replenished glycogen stores by consuming PWO shake AND PWO meal (to a large degree, you've certainly not got an empty stomach anyway) and leaving it until then would surely extend the post workout window by giving you over and above insulin secretion for that time. This protocol wont make you fat, wont make you hold masses of water, and could be employed for a long time therefore giving you real world long time researched results.

For those that have used insulin and didnt get along with it so now do not use it at all, this could be tried again much more confidently.


----------



## jjb1

bro thanks for posting your protocol tbh i struggled to totally understand it though

i have a good diet im more than happy how my nutrition is coming right now so how do i apply this method to a 6 meal a day diet with out adding more shakes ect

would you take slin pre or post meal and by how long a time frame either way? this is with out extra meals or shakes added just slin using on my normal meals

many thanks KP


----------



## Tinytom

GOD DAMN there's some good info on this thread.

:thumb:


----------



## Aftershock

Kingprop just to confirm do you take your metformin every day or just on the days you use the slin?


----------



## Beans

Tinytom said:


> GOD DAMN there's some good info on this thread.
> 
> :thumb:


x2

Learning alot


----------



## ANABOLIC-EDGE

What would you do Kingprop, as a first time Slin user, that trains in the evening at 6.30?

Something along the lines of 2 IUs PWO. Im currently having 30grams of protein and 40grams of glucose PWO.


----------



## kingprop

jjb1 said:


> bro thanks for posting your protocol tbh i struggled to totally understand it though
> 
> i have a good diet im more than happy how my nutrition is coming right now so how do i apply this method to a 6 meal a day diet with out adding more shakes ect
> 
> would you take slin pre or post meal and by how long a time frame either way? this is with out extra meals or shakes added just slin using on my normal meals
> 
> many thanks KP


I think this is the main question here. I am using small amounts post meals. Say 10 mins after finishing it all, which could take 30 mins or so. So main question is does the body tissues become more sensitive to the insulin we use/produce when we are using so making us insulin tolerant, or when we use insulin does this not allow our blood sugar to rise after a while thereby preventing so much being released by the pancreas? ie taking it pre meals like AM and PWO.

I have a blood glucose monitor and am monitoring BS regularly to find this out. I hope to find that rather than tissues becoming less sensitive per se it is the pre meal use of insulin that tells the pancreas, after a while using, that it doesnt need to release so much.

Im also using Humalog. If I was using Novorapid, and I have some so will employ it at some point, I would use a very small amount in between meals. As most meals are kept moderate GI and quite frequent I would hope to find that a constant stream of BS is being released over time and that the extra small amount of Novorapid is purely ''topping up' over and above my natural secretion.

Like I say im no expert by far in this field. Im just sure (hoping anyway) that my way will work better for me. It is so far. (No hypos at all!!)


----------



## kingprop

Aftershock said:


> Kingprop just to confirm do you take your metformin every day or just on the days you use the slin?


currently just on the days im using insulin and only with the meals I use it after. I swallow 500mgs with the first mouthfull.

Im dropping the metformin next week onwards to hopefully establish a truer reading of the point above re reduction in pancreatic secretion as apposed to tissue desensitisation from prolonged use. I may use the insulin every day mon-fri to try this out.


----------



## kingprop

ANABOLIC-EDGE said:


> What would you do Kingprop, as a first time Slin user, that trains in the evening at 6.30?
> 
> Something along the lines of 2 IUs PWO. Im currently having 30grams of protein and 40grams of glucose PWO.


I would consume the PWO shake and go home. Then use the 2ius with my evening meal making sure the meal contained 100g of moderate GI carbs. I would also test BS before going to bed and perhaps have whey and fine oats (20g min) before bed.


----------



## hilly

very very good thread. I will use that pwo method during my pct in a couple of weeks as i never have used insulin before so will start this way and see how it goes. good advice kingprop


----------



## standardflexer

I did that hilly very good idea mate let me know how much of your gains you keep.


----------



## hilly

ill keep it all posted in my journal mate


----------



## danimal

has anyone used slin pre workout and is this dangerous?


----------



## Tinytom

danimal said:


> has anyone used slin pre workout and is this dangerous?


Yes and Yes if you dont have everything spot on with your nutrition.


----------



## MXD

Some truly great input from yourself here KP.

I'd like to ask you how you would specifically use novorapid as that is all I've got, I've been thinking:

6:00am 30 whey 50g oats/ bread + jam

8:00 jab

9:00 banana, turkey and a 50/50 mix of white / brown rice

A question is how would you implement this around pwo times as the novo rapid takes 1.5 h to peak.

So finish trainging at 3:00 shake,

4:00 jab and small meal

then 5:30 evening meal

8:30 whey and oats etc?


----------



## kingprop

That reads fine to me mate. Completing training at 3pm gives two ideal opportunities (meals) a bit before and a bit after. The same as I am doing.


----------



## kingprop

So its been a total of six weeks experimenting with this protocol for me now. Doses with the two meals 3xW have been minimal and ive found my ideal dose to be 4ius with these meals. Im still taking 500mgs metformin at the start of the two meals each day.

I came to this regimen at a sticking point on my cycle (test prop only) when my weight was 135kgs (BF by calipre 12%)

Weight yesterday (Weighed every Wednesday) was 138.5kgs (BF by calipre 12% still)

So this is a bodyweight gain of around 0.5kgs (1lb) per week which im very happy with.

http://www.eje-online.org/cgi/content/abstract/143/1/85

Now, whilst this could be due to the above research if SHBG was holding my gains back I also believe it is the action of the small dose more frequent usage of insulin and metformin that has enabled me to absorb more nutrients from the large amount of food im eating.

As many have said 'Its not about the food you eat but the food you absorb/process that matters' I believe the combination has tipped the balance over to muscle tissue construction more than before where fat and water gain were greater, and digestion problems rife.

Primasorb? Bioperine? Digestive enzymes? Or something that your body produces naturally to process your foods with a small amount of a biguanide to tip the scale a little further over?

I will continue this for another three weeks where I hope to hit 140kgs. This will be a good indicator as it puts me where I was last year before comp diet (and I have loads of pictures of my ugly mug from then) You guys can then judge if anything has really changed. The pictures are actually from beginning January this year and so it sets me 5 weeks earlier than last time for my diet. (Next show NABBA SE qualifier May 2nd)


----------



## kingprop

Here's a relaxed back shot from then. Im 140kgs but BF was over 15% so if I can manage to get there and stay at 12% or thereabouts its all good... I hope..


----------



## hilly

very interesting kingprop and good results it looks. cnt wait to see the pics.


----------



## TaintedSoul

Kingprop, how tall are you?


----------



## kingprop

189cms mate


----------



## TaintedSoul

kingprop said:


> 189cms mate


Thats basically my height..... FCK!!! Paint yourself green tonight and scare the kids!!

What you say has helped you the most towards your current weight.... steroids or insulin? Have you always been fairly big before starting BodyBuilding.


----------



## rs007

Hi KP,

Some great posts there and a lot of useful info.

Got to admit, I have been thinking the same for a long time now, but never thought to raise my concerns since the current (and IMO less than ideal) trend for insulin use is firmly established... but if taking insulin on low blood sugar, prior to eating a meal, to me it is plainly obvious that via feedback, your body simply wont release any insulin of its own in response to the rising blood sugar from the meal - so as you say, you are just replacing one with the other...

And about the panic overcompensating too - I'd known for some time that when a diabetic feels a hypo coming on they take in small amounts of simple sugars (ie 1 or 2 glucose tabs). I mean apart from all the negative health aspects of huge volumes of quick carbs, its just a quick road to getting fat...

Great reading KP


----------



## kingprop

Hey RS, hope you're well mate? You competing next year? I hear Andy Jameson is making a comeback (Class one 2006)

One thing about insulin is its an interesting topic. I still dont understand fully the actions in my body, or think ive worked out best protocol for me yet. All I do know is that the PWO regimen, which I followed after reading posts about its effectiveness, didnt really work for me much at all.

I think im understanding now that for me PWO insulin was difficult to manage due to overcompensation of sugar, heavy water retention, and stomach bloating and digestion problems. This could be due to my endo/meso make-up, perhaps I was already insulin tolerant to some degree anyway due to body weight?

Ive stopped my test cycle now as im hoping this new way for me will still give benefits off test. Certainly looks good for PCT and time off, for me. The two small injections really give a pumped feel akin to being on cycle. I may in future then perform a day on and day off setup with it.

Im really hoping to find something of use for time off as funds (ie wife) doesnt allow HGH/IGF usage then. This will be tinkered with up until Xmas and ill post all results good and bad.

Im going to begin using soon some glutamine peptides and kre-alkylyn from Extreme Nut. with it once test levels are low. Ill also add in some glycerol and change training from hard and heavy, to lighter and more reps.


----------



## Dragon555

kingprop said:


> Hey RS, hope you're well mate? You competing next year? I hear Andy Jameson is making a comeback (Class one 2006)
> 
> One thing about insulin is its an interesting topic. I still dont understand fully the actions in my body, or think ive worked out best protocol for me yet. All I do know is that the PWO regimen, which I followed after reading posts about its effectiveness, didnt really work for me much at all.
> 
> I think im understanding now that for me PWO insulin was difficult to manage due to overcompensation of sugar, heavy water retention, and stomach bloating and digestion problems. This could be due to my endo/meso make-up, perhaps I was already insulin tolerant to some degree anyway due to body weight?
> 
> Ive stopped my test cycle now as im hoping this new way for me will still give benefits off test. Certainly looks good for PCT and time off, for me. The two small injections really give a pumped feel akin to being on cycle. I may in future then perform a day on and day off setup with it.
> 
> Im really hoping to find something of use for time off as funds (ie wife) doesnt allow HGH/IGF usage then. This will be tinkered with up until Xmas and ill post all results good and bad.
> 
> Im going to begin using soon some glutamine peptides and kre-alkylyn from Extreme Nut. with it once test levels are low. Ill also add in some glycerol and change training from hard and heavy, to lighter and more reps.


how long are you going to be drug free KP? are you using insulin while your off to hold size and condition if so whats your shot regime? or do you come totally clean and just EAT lol


----------



## kingprop

TaintedSoul said:


> What you say has helped you the most towards your current weight.... steroids or insulin? Have you always been fairly big before starting BodyBuilding.


I trained without using anything for over ten years. This was probably the best thing i did as I got to 17 stone, from a start of 12 stone, over this time.

Every year since then ive put on bodyweight. Every years cycle is heavier than the one before it. I guess im searching now for the ultimate stack, where I can use a bit of this and a bit of that, minimising dose and sides and maximising growth.


----------



## kingprop

Dragon555 said:


> how long are you going to be drug free KP? are you using insulin while your off to hold size and condition if so whats your shot regime? or do you come totally clean and just EAT lol


Ill stay off until beginning January but will use insulin in small amounts with the metformin every other day for a while and see how it goes.


----------



## Dragon555

is that every other training day? or right through the week inc sat and sun?


----------



## rs007

kingprop said:


> Hey RS, hope you're well mate? You competing next year? I hear Andy Jameson is making a comeback (Class one 2006)


Im doing ok - yourself? Prob not competing next year, as I just havent been able to address my one weakness - size. I don't mind getting beaten off stage, but I have got to at least improve on my last appearance and I don't think that is going to be possible. What about you, you going for it again?



kingprop said:


> All I do know is that the PWO regimen, which I followed after reading posts about its effectiveness, didnt really work for me much at all.
> 
> I think im understanding now that for me PWO insulin was difficult to manage due to overcompensation of sugar, heavy water retention, and stomach bloating and digestion problems.


Totally feel the same with regard to the PWO and established use patterns, just don't seem to do anything for me positive. I am not pretending I know the best way, but I do know that the usual method is not best for me...



kingprop said:


> This could be due to my endo/meso make-up, perhaps I was already insulin tolerant to some degree anyway due to body weight?


Well as I understand it (and I could be wrong) as your muscular size goes up, its not like your body produces more insulin but there is argument that you could legitimately use more... an you are a hell of a size... so maybe by virtue of that size, its not so much you were tolerant, just that you simply need more by default?



kingprop said:


> Ive stopped my test cycle now as im hoping this new way for me will still give benefits off test. Certainly looks good for PCT and time off, for me. The two small injections really give a pumped feel akin to being on cycle. I may in future then perform a day on and day off setup with it.
> 
> Im really hoping to find something of use for time off as funds (ie wife) doesnt allow HGH/IGF usage then. This will be tinkered with up until Xmas and ill post all results good and bad.
> 
> Im going to begin using soon some glutamine peptides and kre-alkylyn from Extreme Nut. with it once test levels are low. Ill also add in some glycerol and change training from hard and heavy, to lighter and more reps.


Hope you record all this as you go - I for one will be followign with great interest!


----------



## kingprop

Dragon555 said:


> is that every other training day? or right through the week inc sat and sun?


From now its every other day inc weekends. Still 4ius twice per day and 500mgs metformin with meals. Ill run this up until the Xmas two weeks when Ill stop it and consume lots of junk and alcohol. lol


----------



## kingprop

RS2007 said:


> Im doing ok - yourself? Prob not competing next year, as I just havent been able to address my one weakness - size. I don't mind getting beaten off stage, but I have got to at least improve on my last appearance and I don't think that is going to be possible. What about you, you going for it again?


Yes mate. This year although my first wasnt good and I was lazy. I feel I need to address that.

It sounds like an altered insulin protocol could work for you then too mate. Have you tried any other than PWO?


----------



## rs007

kingprop said:


> Yes mate. This year although my first wasnt good and I was lazy. I feel I need to address that.


Well, if that was you being lazy... fk me if yet your finger out!



kingprop said:


> It sounds like an altered insulin protocol could work for you then too mate. Have you tried any other than PWO?


Just experimenting along your lines right now! Can't say I've seen any major gain yet (not long enough), lots of fullness / pumps though and none of the groggy bloating etc, so initial observations are good! And no hypo's or need to jam lots of glucose down my neck in blind panic!

So I'll keep tweaking away and monitor the results, cheers for backing up my suspicions though, I'd have probably just stuck to the same old regime otherwise. :thumbup1:


----------



## extrarep

Could you explain the cycle in a bit more detail - am very interested in trying but its hard to get defintive answers

Thanks mate


----------



## kingprop

There's no real set cycle mate really its just a discussion of not using it only PWO but looking to use it at other meal times at a lesser dose. This would be begun low and slow, perhaps 2ius with one meal each day (PWO meal?) and could feasibly be increased to something like 4-6ius with two or three meals per day. At this stage, and to prevent insulin tolerance it may be prudent to use this with a day on/ day off regimen.

I cant argue that some guys get great gains from PWO use of insulin, but this way ive found less bloat and GI distress and im managing my food intake better for the rest of the day. The pumps are amazing and as yet no hypos at all.

So its kinda like a theory. We only release so much insulin naturally and its thinking on the lines of topping this up slightly rather than going for the super hyper saturation that PWO insulin in big doses with lots of simple sugars may bring.

Im currently now off cycle and have been for the whole of November. Im still using the insulin 2 times per day at 3-4ius each time. Its going really well so this way may be a decent addition to off cycle times.


----------



## niknaknok

thanks kp for starting this thread just read it and think it covers many issues i have had with slin.the thread is nice and easy to read also without that blankness you sometimes get when readin long articles.


----------



## laurie g

yeah its good kingprop i remember you and steve at the britain this year paul scarb intoduced us- top gents you were. thinking of doing slin me self but a bit scared really but i do need more mass so ill look at doing it. your diet has to remain mega clean on slin doesnt it?


----------



## 3752

it all depends what type you use....

i am going to be using long acting slin in the new year instead of the fast type.....

to be fair most guys get fat on slin because they eat to many carbs as they are scared of going hypo these extra cals are then converted to fat as they are not used......

on UKI Maxitier explains why longer acting slin is better to use over short acting slin


----------



## laurie g

cheers paul- yeah my diets clean anyway well ill talk to you bout it down stueys when your down next- ill be down 6.30 tonight-(hint hint)


----------



## 3752

i am away until friday mate be in the gym on Monday


----------



## BIG-UNC

is it possible/worth it using metformin on its own with out the injectable form of slin if so what would be the best aas to have with it for max results?


----------



## Cap'n Beefy

Did we come to a decision, is Metformin and GH likely to have similar effects to GH and Insulin?


----------



## noel

yeah good question - Kingprop? anyone

Metformin - useful on its on (if so what protocal)?

taken whilst running GH?

whilst on cycle or use while off


----------



## noel

anyone?


----------



## kingprop

Usefull? Well id say yes if you've gained say over 20lbs of bodyweight since starting bbing. the pancreas cant tell the difference between muscle cells and fat cells as far as body mass goes. it may be prudent to read some articles on metformin written with the 'life extension' folk in mind. On its own it reduced post meal sleepiness for me and went well when combining it PWO with creatine. Alpha lipoic acid is used in some countries like metformin is here, and its added to so many OTC PWO blends we see in the shops. Dont expect miracles but it may be a good start before insulin. Just dont drink alcohol as this increases the risk of lactic acidosis as far as I understand it.


----------



## kingprop

laurie g said:


> yeah its good kingprop i remember you and steve at the britain this year paul scarb intoduced us- top gents you were.


Hi buddy, I remember you well. Looking at the British DVD and pics mate id give you a year or two to pack on some mass, and with the masters help you'll kick some @rse bro. Excellent proportions and still so young. Im jealous!!


----------



## glanzav

kingprop have u ever used slow acting insulin

or does any1 have more info on it

iv read on other post that a morning shot of slow acting is much safer and heard of guys shotting between 20-50ius i think

can any1 explain how the slow acting works and are there any peaks with it when you may feel hypo

and how long does it take to clear your system cos if i was to use slow i no i like to have a afternoon sleep b4 work at night and wouldnt wanna go hypo when sleeping

anymore info would be great


----------



## glanzav

bump guys


----------



## musclemorpheus

mate the best person to speak to would be Paul Scarb he is using slow acting insulin at the moment if you look at his Offseason log in Pros section..

I do know that there is no peaks..

but to get more info have a look at UKIRON forum there is more info about the use of slow acting insulin, I am seriously considering it....


----------



## POWERPANTS97

Long acting insulin, preferably lantus is fantastic stuff....my appetite increased no end whilst on that, i could eat a large solid food meal every 1 and a half hours no problem (250g rice, 250+g steak & veg). Love the stuff.

PP97


----------



## kingprop

Ive never used slow acting insulin. I was always put off by its peaks throughout the day. Reading the excellent information on UKIron I can understand why Lantus slow acting, and not the mixtard varieties, would be of use. The only problem I have is with insulin tolerance. Im not sure whether the risks are as minimal as id like using it.

As im dieting now insulin is off the cards, but in the summer I may give this a bash.


----------



## aussieboy

kingprop said:


> This will be the next thing to investigate. If you research you read that IGF can prevent the fat gain from insulin use, so it seems that the two could work well together.
> 
> With the fact that its long acting (IGF) compared to some insulins we use, and the fact that IGF lowers my blood sugar levels; coupled with the only evidence ive gained is from using IGF pre-workout and then the huge dose insulin (8-12ius) PWO regimen the only thing I noticed was that it didnt do anything more for me than just IGF use.
> 
> Trying it together again, which I will in future, I would emply the low dose insulin (2-3 times per day with meals) and IGF AM and again 12 hours later. The insulin would therefore be in between this.
> 
> The reason research will say do not do them together is the tissue desensitivity issue again. But then running a 3 days per week protocol, as with insulin only, should go some way to prevent or delay this onset.
> 
> Have a go mate, please report your findings here perhaps on a seperate thread. I for one would be very interested in any results. As always with these compound begin dose on the very low side and build up maybe also use the scales, body fat calipres and even someone elses opinion on body composition changes, before upping any dose schedule you dont think is working. Good luck mate.


*IGF + Insulin*

If you plan on doing IGF1 with Insulin......

IGF1 and Insulin together have a pro-insulin effect on your blood sugar balance. It can enhance the chances of a hypoglycemic episode ten fold. I would recommend against it for any one not ABSOLUTLY comfortable with insulin or IGF1.

Here is how insulin and IGF1 work together. Igfbp3 is the binding protein, which allows IGF1 to remain active in the system for a long enough period of time to really work its magic. IGF1 by nature has a half-life of less than 10 minutes by its self. The molecule was so small it would escape the blood stream very rapidly. This was the reason IGF1 was so "underground". It took very frequent injections at high dosages to achieve even minimal results. Aside from this reconstituting the compound required a degree in biochemistry. This short acting version was the only IGF1 known until recently IGF1 would have been administered in 100 mcg dosages 4-6 times a day. That is a hell of a lot of IGF1. That explains a lot of the distended bellies. Now with R3 long chain IGF1 and the Binding protein IGFBP3 IGF1 will last up to 6 hours in the system. By binding IGF to the IGFBP3 you make the molecule larger and it gets trapped in the blood stream until the protein is broken down and the IGF molecule escapes. You can further its life by combining Insulin with it, although I here its very risky. Insulin prevents the breakdown of IGFBP3 and leaves the IGF1 molecule roaming free in the blood stream for longer periods of time up to 12 hours as insulin levels return to normal IGFBP3 will begin to break down and the IGF1 will escape from its bound protein IGFBP3 again having a half life of less than 10 minutes.

Insulin should be taken at the normal dosage it is usually administered at minus 10% about 45 minutes prior to the IGF1 infusion. Again let me remind you this can be deadly if you don't know what you are doing. And of course do not use Insulin for the nighttime injection of IGF1 by taking it in the morning you prolong the IGF1's half life to 12 hours and then take a 6 hour injection, you should be fine. Hell if you want to eat a big bowl of rice and drink another 100g of simple carbs 45 minutes before the bed time IGF1 infusion you could spike insulin for at least a few hours of extended IGF1 activity. If your not going to be using insulin in the stack then go ahead and do the same in the morning.


----------



## 3752

aussiboy what results have you had from Insulin and IGF?


----------



## 3752

POWERPANTS97 said:


> Long acting insulin, preferably lantus is fantastic stuff....my appetite increased no end whilst on that, i could eat a large solid food meal every 1 and a half hours no problem (250g rice, 250+g steak & veg). Love the stuff.
> 
> PP97


levimer is a better choice than Lantus mainly due to some people getting eye sight problems whilst using lantus...


----------



## aussieboy

Pscarb said:


> aussiboy what results have you had from Insulin and IGF?


i ve been doing some research and thats the best info i have found so far.

ive ordered some igf from muscle research n have my insulin already. as soon as it arrives im gonna do a cycle of 6 weeks. doing the igf 1 like u said "only 3 times a week"....

one question pscarb....ive heard that wen the igf 1 comes already mixed its no good anymore...is that true? and wen u meassure it is it ok to peal the metal bit off and take the rubber cap off to meassure it...??? one of my mates does it he finds it easier to suck everything out..

and ive heard that some puts it all into an insulin neddle and leaves it in the fridge...meaning he uses the same neddle through out the whole cycle. and reckons its best way to do it so u dont have to keep on moving the bottle upside down all the time...or opening n closing.

what do u reckon about al this? how do u do it wit omegas igf?


----------



## MXD

Pscarb said:


> levimer is a better choice than Lantus mainly due to some people getting eye sight problems whilst using lantus...


Anymore info on this Paul? I was just about to start lantus in the am at 10 iu, thanks


----------



## glanzav

aussie boy if it comes pre mixed it should be fine its mixed with a form of acid and can last up to a month at room temp

i no the omega labs come pre mixed and everyone seemed to get on well with it

i would say igf is different to hgh and it doesnt really matter so much if it is shock about abit correct me if im wrong

its fine to use the same needle for a while though the best thing is to draw out ur amount into a slin needle then use some bac water


----------



## stone14

this is prob the best slin thread ive read!

is glargine and lantus the same thing, slin brand etc or two drifent slins?

KP: is metformin otc? legal to buy? also does taking that with slin make you more sensitive to slin, meaning you need less to be affective and less to go hypo?

how would you use metformin with long acting slin?


----------



## kingprop

Its prescription only but can be imported quite easily without a script. The idea for me involved using an oral diabetic agent and smaller insulin doses so I could lower the insulin, which I did and got along very well. I didnt go hypo once.

With long acting I would be more wary, but it could be done ok if you keep your eye on your food and BS. A meter is essential.


----------



## All4n

kingprop, some brilliant info on this thread by yourself and others, just finished the whole thing. I'm not looking to use insulin yet by any means but like to research things when they interest me. How would the following protocol look for a first time insulin user?

5.30pm - 50g whey/casein blend + 50g powdered oats

6.15pm - train

7.30pm - 40g whey + 50g powdered oats + 500g metformin

8.15pm - 150g chicken + 300g sweet potatoe +veg + 500g metformin

8.30pm - 2iu humulog insulin

10.30pm - 50g casein + 50g oats

10.45-11pm - bed

How does this look? Can the two doses of metformin be used in such close proximity? Would you use the metformin and/or insulin at different times? If using GH with this method, could it simply be shot with the insulin as described above and still receive the benefits on the slin/GH combo using the timings as described above?

If adopting a *metformin only* protocol when best would it be used for the pre/post and ppwo carbs? Should it be used only once during this time as they are all very close together? For example with the PWO shake only or with the PPWO meal only. Thankyou for your time.


----------



## kingprop

There's no real benefit from splitting the dose of metformin yet keeping it so close. Id use 500mgs with PWO meal and increase this to maximum 1000mgs if needed over next few weeks. With a half life of ~6 hours for it I keep doses up to 12 hours apart. If using metformin only I would take one dose with breakfast and one with PWO meal.


----------



## All4n

Cheers for reply mate. So essentially insulin sensitivity will be increased for 6 hours. How effective is metformin in your experience? Do you notice much difference between 500mg and 1000mg? Would you advise avoiding other GDAs while using metformin such as ALA and Na-RALA or would these still provide additional benefit (perhaps only very minor in comparison i guess though)? Or best left for when not using metformin?


----------



## kingprop

Most certainly use the metformin on its own first to see how you respond. If you complicate it and side effects appear you'll want to know whats causing them. A combination of oral antihypoglycaemic agents might be worth investigating though in the future.

Ive slowly increased now to 1000mgs in one dose, but have just one of these per day as im dieting and want a reduced action time instead of the 12 hour dose. Insulin sensitivity is increased throughout the day still. When dosing every 12 hours it'll give 500mgs>250mgs>500mgs>250mgs and so on. Only half the life (dose) is gone after 6 hours.

Metformin seems to suit most people. The fatter Endo guys lose bodyfat and the Ecto guys like the fullness of muscle feeling. Life extensionists (other non-diabetics who use it) go up to 2000-2500mgs per day dose wise from what ive read/heard.


----------



## hilly

kingprop said:


> Most certainly use the metformin on its own first to see how you respond. If you complicate it and side effects appear you'll want to know whats causing them. A combination of oral antihypoglycaemic agents might be worth investigating though in the future.
> 
> Ive slowly increased now to 1000mgs in one dose, but have just one of these per day as im dieting and want a reduced action time instead of the 12 hour dose. Insulin sensitivity is increased throughout the day still. When dosing every 12 hours it'll give 500mgs>250mgs>500mgs>250mgs and so on. Only half the life (dose) is gone after 6 hours.
> 
> Metformin seems to suit most people. The fatter Endo guys lose bodyfat and the Ecto guys like the fullness of muscle feeling. Life extensionists (other non-diabetics who use it) go up to 2000-2500mgs per day dose wise from what ive read/heard.


So king prop your using metformin while dieting, what benefits do you think their are to this.

I have been using it on my refeed day on a sat and have now added 500mg this morning as its a medium day. any thoughts on using it every day. my low days are 100g carbs all taken before 3pm.


----------



## All4n

kingprop said:


> Most certainly use the metformin on its own first to see how you respond. If you complicate it and side effects appear you'll want to know whats causing them. A combination of oral antihypoglycaemic agents might be worth investigating though in the future.
> 
> Ive slowly increased now to 1000mgs in one dose, but have just one of these per day as im dieting and want a reduced action time instead of the 12 hour dose. Insulin sensitivity is increased throughout the day still. When dosing every 12 hours it'll give 500mgs>250mgs>500mgs>250mgs and so on. Only half the life (dose) is gone after 6 hours.
> 
> Metformin seems to suit most people. The fatter Endo guys lose bodyfat and the Ecto guys like the fullness of muscle feeling. Life extensionists (other non-diabetics who use it) go up to 2000-2500mgs per day dose wise from what ive read/heard.


Yeah it's just i'm currently using NA-rala and ALA so curious to whether to drop these or continue with them. I wil drop them inititially and consider reintroducing after assessing the metformin. I will dose at 7am (breakfast) and 7.30pm or 8pm (PWO).

I've read Avandia (Rosiglitazone) can be used in conjunction with metforim, do you have any experience with this med? What other meds do you know of that would be able to be stacked with metformin for enhanced effects?


----------



## kingprop

hilly2008 said:


> So king prop your using metformin while dieting, what benefits do you think their are to this.
> 
> I have been using it on my refeed day on a sat and have now added 500mg this morning as its a medium day. any thoughts on using it every day. my low days are 100g carbs all taken before 3pm.


Im just playing around at present. Dieting like this is a new experience for me. Whilst at first I was cautious about using it whilst dieting, it made sense to use it as my diets' intensity increased. I have one high carb meal each day PWO after training session one. I train twice per day atm mon-fri.

So today for example looks like this:

6am. 4ius HGH 40 mins cardio

7am. meal one. 4 eggs, 8 egg whites, smoked salmon, gluten free bagel.

9am. train

10am. Shake 50g whey iso

10.30am meal two. carb content 100g-300g. metformin 500-1000mgs depending on carb amount.

The rest of the meals are either shakes of WPI or chicken/turkey or white fish with small leaf salad.

Reasons for this were to exert any positive influence on the metabolism of the carbs eaten with meal two. Metformin will slow the release of carbs from the stomach to the blood stream and so lower blood sugar after eating. It will make muscle tissue more sensitive to the insulin produced and so use this sugar more effectively.

This has led to a lowered insulin production and decrease in hunger which was felt when consuming total daily carbs spread evenly over the day.


----------



## kingprop

All4n said:


> Yeah it's just i'm currently using NA-rala and ALA so curious to whether to drop these or continue with them. I wil drop them inititially and consider reintroducing after assessing the metformin. I will dose at 7am (breakfast) and 7.30pm or 8pm (PWO).
> 
> I've read Avandia (Rosiglitazone) can be used in conjunction with metforim, do you have any experience with this med? What other meds do you know of that would be able to be stacked with metformin for enhanced effects?


Metformin's the only oral agent ive used but I definitely want to experiment with stacking it with another.


----------



## mick_the_brick

Very interesting thread KP..

Reps Bro


----------



## LOCUST

Is metformin good to use when off cycle, and bulking ?


----------



## hilly

locust i reckon it would be mate yes, from what i have rewad it helps your body use up its nutrients better and makes it less likely for you to store fat.

Have a search on here i no a couple of people who used it after dieting during the rebound with good effect.

BIG a over on pro muscle and a few others guys really rate the stuff.


----------



## LOCUST

Cheers hilly, thats excatly the reason im asking, cos of the post show rebound.

Also off cycle, to help gain better and make better use of food in gerneral.


----------



## Need-valid-info

as mick hart would say bodybuilding is good but not that good. So insulin is a no no why take the risk


----------



## biglee32

Amazing info, and its great that you guys are sharing the information its taken ages to get, your a credit to bodybuilding, there a so many idiots in the sport who seem to pass on knowledge that they know nothing about, this thread was awsome, and makes perfect sense. Ive always wonderd if insulin after eatin is better, as taking it before then eating means waiting for the food to hit the bloodstream, which takes a while considering the physiological process. Thanks


----------



## Guest

Well seeing that this thread has been bumped i will try and get it going again.

KingProp have you ever tried the insulin prior to the work out whilst using a pre/during/pwo shake ie the Milos Sacerv method (i was reading milos's posts over on rxmuscle and if he madeit sound like the holy grail of bb  ).


----------



## LittleChris

From my reading I thought that pre-workout was very dangerous as you run risk of going hypo during your workout when blood sugars are already lowered. I guess thats what the pre/during/pwo shakes are for though.

Then again, Milos knows his stuff so will be interesting to see what he says if only I could find the link...


----------



## All4n

The shakes by milo are interesting. Lots of stories about how he was adding 20-30lbs to his guys using them too. Although how much of this was water/fat/muscle or even how true it is not sure.

But i'm also curious to how much more benefit someone would really get using slin? I mean how much greater in effect comes from these shakes from injecting slin compared with your bodies natural release? Which will be high due to the simple sugars.

Con, havn;t you experiemented with similar shakes in the past minus the insulin use? How did you get on with them? I'd hazard a guess they'd only work well under the right circumstances:

Very high volume training

Very good insulin sensitivity

Theory does make sense but i think it's going to be pretty person dependent. If insulin sensitivity isn't high then you're not gonna benefit. If you don't use high volume training (because you grow better on low volume) then you arn't gonna see much benefit. If you don't have a fast metabolism and need the extra nutrients/calories then it probably isn't a wise idea. High volume training = high volume of blood flow into muscle. So add a high volume/big influx of nutrients into that equation and it makes sense you're going to be pretty anabolic state. So i guess adding insulin into the equation allows for maximum uptake of said nutrients = more anabolism.

Defiantly not for everyone, but for those fitting into the right category it could be just the ticket for new growth.

Also i think would work very well for those that grow on training twice per day. Again high volume. As it means maximum recovery between workouts. Where maximising the rate of glycogen synthesis is very important.


----------



## Guest

I used the pre during and pwo shakes heavly two years ago.

It worked very well but i made a mistake when building my shake (i used trueprotein and made it into one powder) and that was to use waxy maize. WM gives me horrible bloating and the shakes killed my appetite for a long time. Now using vitargo would solve this for me or even gatoraid powder would work.

As far as volume i have found higher volume with short rest periods to be very effective for arm training much more so than HIT.



All4n said:


> The shakes by milo are interesting. Lots of stories about how he was adding 20-30lbs to his guys using them too. Although how much of this was water/fat/muscle or even how true it is not sure.
> 
> But i'm also curious to how much more benefit someone would really get using slin? I mean how much greater in effect comes from these shakes from injecting slin compared with your bodies natural release? Which will be high due to the simple sugars.
> 
> Con, havn;t you experiemented with similar shakes in the past minus the insulin use? How did you get on with them? I'd hazard a guess they'd only work well under the right circumstances:
> 
> Very high volume training
> 
> Very good insulin sensitivity
> 
> Theory does make sense but i think it's going to be pretty person dependent. If insulin sensitivity isn't high then you're not gonna benefit. If you don't use high volume training (because you grow better on low volume) then you arn't gonna see much benefit. If you don't have a fast metabolism and need the extra nutrients/calories then it probably isn't a wise idea. High volume training = high volume of blood flow into muscle. So add a high volume/big influx of nutrients into that equation and it makes sense you're going to be pretty anabolic state. So i guess adding insulin into the equation allows for maximum uptake of said nutrients = more anabolism.
> 
> Defiantly not for everyone, but for those fitting into the right category it could be just the ticket for new growth.
> 
> Also i think would work very well for those that grow on training twice per day. Again high volume. As it means maximum recovery between workouts. Where maximising the rate of glycogen synthesis is very important.


----------



## ares1

im using pre, peri & Pwo carb shakes atm with metformin - have been doing so for a few weeks now - energy and pumps are excellent.

Anyone got any links to Milos's stuff on this?


----------



## Guest

CarbWhore said:


> im using pre, peri & Pwo carb shakes atm with metformin - have been doing so for a few weeks now - energy and pumps are excellent.
> 
> Anyone got any links to Milos's stuff on this?


 Well over on his board he talks about it a lot but you have to join he talks a bit about it on rxmuscle. Here is the formula.....

The during work out shake is all predigested aminos nothing like whey as this would not digest and just sit in your gut and make you sick.

Pre Workout:

3-10g Creatine

3-10g Glutamine

15-20g Essential Amino Acids

15g BCAA

30-50 Vitargo

1tsp electrolyte drink powder

During Workout:

3-5g Creatine

3-10g Glutamine

15-20g Essential Amino Acids

15g BCAA

50 Vitargo

1tsp electrolyte drink powder

Post Workout

3-5g Creatine

3-10g Glutamine

40-50g Whey

50-75 Vitargo

1tsp electrolyte drink powder .

Obviously he will not say how much slin to use as its individual but he does talk about going to ten iu you would want to work up slowly to that no doubt. Milos hypes it on rxmuscle radio show to be better than steriods so for a soon to be reborn natural such as my self this is interesting


----------



## LittleChris

Would you alter your training then as you follow a low-volume HIT training usually don't you?


----------



## Guest

LittleChris said:


> Would you alter your training then as you follow a low-volume HIT training usually don't you?


 I have been reading into various protocals for training specifically what works for naturals because when your natural the whole game is changed imo. If i was to use a shake protocal like this i would use a higher volume program specifically things like german volume 10x10 on moves like deadlifts with a 4 second negative on every rep with a 2 second positive with 1 minute rest between sets, looks pretty fvcking hard IMO.

I will be using low frequency ie 3 days per week but i may try some thing different to HIT. I was doing DC for a couple of months this year and i like it but its too dependant on rest pause which is not optimal at all times imo.


----------



## kingprop

All4n said:


> But i'm also curious to how much more benefit someone would really get using slin? I mean how much greater in effect comes from these shakes from injecting slin compared with your bodies natural release? Which will be high due to the simple sugars.


Not high, but fast. Fast release due to the fast increase in blood sugar. No more insulin will be released. The pancreas only releases so much, which is why you have to not eat (starve) for the glucose tolerance test (GTT) to be accurate. If you ate it would give a false positive for diabetes, as blood sugar would be high.

This is why we use insulin. If we could simply neck another shake then it wouldnt be needed, but doing that continually would lead to high concentration of sugar in the urine due to the kindey overspill.

Ive personally found that chasing the mega release, natural and added-in, coupled with post workout 'suction' time and lots of sugar eaten is to much. Super-saturation is simply that. Saturated in water.

Giving 2ius with certain meals is more than would be there naturally. The gains this way are slow though. And super-saturation gives huge weight increases, some even good! Add this to the 'most anabolic substance in the world' kudos, and big things are expected. Big fat things can be created quickly. But everyone complains at this obviously.

Anything good, and you're 100% correct, is very specific and very difficult to get right. Right enough that you're very happy anyway.


----------



## Guest

kingprop said:


> Not high, but fast. Fast release due to the fast increase in blood sugar. No more insulin will be released. The pancreas only releases so much, which is why you have to not eat (starve) for the glucose tolerance test (GTT) to be accurate. If you ate it would give a false positive for diabetes, as blood sugar would be high.
> 
> This is why we use insulin. If we could simply neck another shake then it wouldnt be needed, but doing that continually would lead to high concentration of sugar in the urine due to the kindey overspill.
> 
> Ive personally found that chasing the mega release, natural and added-in, coupled with post workout 'suction' time and lots of sugar eaten is to much. Super-saturation is simply that. Saturated in water.
> 
> Giving 2ius with certain meals is more than would be there naturally. The gains this way are slow though. And super-saturation gives huge weight increases, some even good! Add this to the 'most anabolic substance in the world' kudos, and big things are expected. Big fat things can be created quickly. But everyone complains at this obviously.
> 
> Anything good, and you're 100% correct, is very specific and very difficult to get right. Right enough that you're very happy anyway.


 Fvcking love your posts mate:beer:

Have you used long acting slin yet namely lantus if so did you find superior gains due to the direct effect on igf in the body?


----------



## LittleChris

Do you think insulin is overrated then?

I was reading something about Building the Perfect Beast and it attributed the massive increase in size in the upper echelons of the sport to insulin almost exclusively.

I imagine they are using longer acting daily and probably shorter acting with meals though as detailed in this thread?


----------



## kingprop

Con said:


> Well seeing that this thread has been bumped i will try and get it going again.
> 
> KingProp have you ever tried the insulin prior to the work out whilst using a pre/during/pwo shake ie the Milos Sacerv method (i was reading milos's posts over on rxmuscle and if he madeit sound like the holy grail of bb  ).


I have and it is very good. Ive never taken more than 4ius, and 2ius does massive things. Then I had a 'wobbler' once. Never again. IGF for me pre-wo now.


----------



## LittleChris

Con said:


> I have been reading into various protocals for training specifically what works for naturals because when your natural the whole game is changed imo. If i was to use a shake protocal like this i would use a higher volume program specifically things like german volume 10x10 on moves like deadlifts with a 4 second negative on every rep with a 2 second positive with 1 minute rest between sets, looks pretty fvcking hard IMO.
> 
> I will be using low frequency ie 3 days per week but i may try some thing different to HIT. I was doing DC for a couple of months this year and i like it but its too dependant on rest pause which is not optimal at all times imo.


I think that volume training was what held me back when I was natural. I did plenty of volume and also supersets and dropsets 4times a week. Live and learn though.

Is it not possible that with your new protocols during PCT that you will maintain your size, even add some LBM?


----------



## Guest

kingprop said:


> I have and it is very good. Ive never taken more than 4ius, and 2ius does massive things. Then I had a 'wobbler' once. Never again. IGF for me pre-wo now.


 Wow i am suprised to hear this after having read that the chance of hypo is basically non existant until you go well over 30iu.

I shall start very low in that case cheers King.



LittleChris said:


> I think that volume training was what held me back when I was natural. I did plenty of volume and also supersets and dropsets 4times a week. Live and learn though.
> 
> Is it not possible that with your new protocols during PCT that you will maintain your size, even add some LBM?


 Hmm, that would be nice but doubtful as i have been shut down for a silly period of time. If i can recover with out disappearing then i am happy. That said after 6 months of close to constant dieting i should be in the best possible place for recovery.

Well i certaintly wouldnt be doing all those things especially drop sets when off gear its far too catabolic to do frequently imo.

I have been reading up on Poliquins methods of late, now it is very different to how i normally would train but some of his theorys are interesting imo. I think a reason many guys fail to continue to make gains or lose gains of gear is because they simply are not training correctly. Gear masks over training and allows you to gain on sub par routines.


----------



## LittleChris

Con said:


> Wow i am suprised to hear this after having read that the chance of hypo is basically non existant until you go well over 30iu.
> 
> I shall start very low in that case cheers King.


Think he was talking about pre-WO slin as opposed to long acting stuff.


----------



## kingprop

LittleChris said:


> Think he was talking about pre-WO slin as opposed to long acting stuff.


Aye, sorry. Fast slin pre-workout. Novorapid messed me up big time.


----------



## kingprop

Con said:


> Fvcking love your posts mate:beer:
> 
> Have you used long acting slin yet namely lantus if so did you find superior gains due to the direct effect on igf in the body?


Thanks bud.

No not used it yet. Been dieiting since Jan so no need to as yet but will try it out after October. The mixtard types available in the past scared me sensless. Lantus looks good, perfect in fact.


----------



## kingprop

LittleChris said:


> Do you think insulin is overrated then?
> 
> I was reading something about Building the Perfect Beast and it attributed the massive increase in size in the upper echelons of the sport to insulin almost exclusively.
> 
> I imagine they are using longer acting daily and probably shorter acting with meals though as detailed in this thread?


No, not at all. Its very powerful, and bloody cheap. I just went into it all guns blazing and it bit me on my fat ****. Refining it for me has been interesting, and beneficial. Im still dead new to it all but documenting it and receiving feedback has been essential. Out of everything so far including last week contest prep, getting this right is extremely taxing on mind and body! And ongoing.


----------



## All4n

Are you still using the method of fast slin with meals KP? Or rather will you be using it again once finished dieting? Do you still rate this method as effective for LBM gains?


----------



## kingprop

Yes I do very much. Im sure a big pro is using this and long acting once per day. I believe the 30ius with each meal and 100ius long per day is someones protocol. Someone German probably.

For me i'll stay, or rather go back to, the 2-4ius with each meal 2 or 3x per day. Day on day off too I found the best for LBM gains. It's a real 'slow and steady wins the race' protocol. I will try small amount lantus too a.m.

I just have to be real careful or the fat flies on me.


----------



## Guest

What do your meals look like when using slin mate?

I am thinking with the long slin considering it gets low in the body at the 14-16 hour mark to simply focus on carb/protein meals during the day then at night bang in the higher fat meals.


----------



## All4n

kingprop said:


> Yes I do very much. Im sure a big pro is using this and long acting once per day. I believe the 30ius with each meal and 100ius long per day is someones protocol. Someone German probably.
> 
> For me i'll stay, or rather go back to, the 2-4ius with each meal 2 or 3x per day. Day on day off too I found the best for LBM gains. It's a real 'slow and steady wins the race' protocol. I will try small amount lantus too a.m.
> 
> *I just have to be real careful or the fat flies on me*.


Biggest factor that puts me off slin use. Maybe it's the dangers for some, but with proper useage/care/attention slin should not become dangerous in the first place.

It's obviously worked for you but a quote from ukiron:



> I do not advocate to use fast acting insulin at all. Fast ating insulin acts only on liver, there is no any benefite in using it for bodybuiolding.
> 
> regardless of effect on BG, if fast acting insulin acts only on liver what would be the reason to use it for bodybuilding. we need insulin which can spread and act on muscles, fast acting insulin does not have time to reach muscles. Only way it can be as diluted intra muscular injection into those muscles which you need to improve. What would be effect, we don't know, risk of hypoglycemia on effective doses 100%.


Kinda makes sense due to the all the stories of fat gain you hear from fast acting slin users. But i guess most if not all use the PWO/before breakfast method. Makes sense how these people got fat as they would be slamming down lots of high GI carbs right after, then on top of that another high carb meal. But the advice still plays on my mind as the guy has a lot of knowledge.

Then again, the protocols obviously work for Milos and his clients, but then do they use GH with their slin? As this seems to be the method that results in best growth without fat gain i guess due to the surge in IGF-1.

I still do like the idea of fast slin after meals, but still unsure of how well it would work. That's on its own without any long slin or GH. Trial and error i guess, but have not jusitfied/convinced it's worth to my self yet.


----------



## kingprop

That's really interesting as ive used actrapid, humalog and novorapid and im thinking of totally prefering the actrapid and have been for a while.

Im not too sure on the fast slin not acting on muscles (systemically) and id like back-up to that statement but maybe thats why im preferring actrapid after all this time looking back on regimens used. I cant wait to try lantus now.

GH use is pretty essential with slin though, for me so far.


----------



## Rebus

Bumping this as very interesting and with ' off season ' approaching it may be on peoples minds....


----------



## flashskate13

I've got some igf-1 long r3 and read up on it alot about how to eat after using and using it after training the only problem I've got is that I will be taking it at 6pm after training so it leaves me 5 hours till I go asleep is this ok because I don't want to go hypo in my sleep. Was going to try it out on a Sunday to see how I react first because I will be able to train earlier..


----------



## pob80

an awsome thread with good info :thumb: king prop what are your opinions with fast acting insulin novorapid while carb loading for a comp?


----------



## Bazooka Tooth

kingprop said:


> Yes I do very much. Im sure a big pro is using this and long acting once per day. I believe the 30ius with each meal and 100ius long per day is someones protocol. Someone German probably.
> 
> For me i'll stay, or rather go back to, the 2-4ius with each meal 2 or 3x per day. Day on day off too I found the best for LBM gains. It's a real 'slow and steady wins the race' protocol. I will try small amount lantus too a.m.
> 
> I just have to be real careful or the fat flies on me.


if using smaller amounts with meals do you still need to use fast carbs?

so if i used 4iu with breakfast would i need 40g of fast carbs or are the fast carbs only needed pwo?


----------



## hilly

Bazooka Tooth said:


> if using smaller amounts with meals do you still need to use fast carbs?
> 
> so if i used 4iu with breakfast would i need 40g of fast carbs or are the fast carbs only needed pwo?


you should always consume carbs when consuming insulin mate.

if i took 4iu with breaky i would aim for 40g carbs from oats/wholemeal toast with a little fast acting carbs like fruit.


----------



## Bazooka Tooth

so it would not matter about using fast carbs. i could just use 40g oats if i used 4iu of humalog

also would i need to have 40 grams of carbs only for 4iu insulin. would i need to use more insulin if my breakfast is say 60 grams of carbs


----------



## Guest

Bazooka Tooth said:


> so it would not matter about using fast carbs. i could just use 40g oats if i used 4iu of humalog
> 
> also would i need to have 40 grams of carbs only for 4iu insulin. would i need to use more insulin if my breakfast is say 60 grams of carbs


40 grams of oats does not equal 40 grams of carbs if thats what your getting at.

But no with low doses you should not need any simple sugars. It is all up to individual differences though so always keep a log of things.


----------



## Bazooka Tooth

no i know mate i mean 40 grams of carbs using oats as the only source.

whats the best way to use it like this? 1 day on 1day off i heard but how long would be best for first time user? 8-10 weeks?


----------



## Guest

Bazooka Tooth said:


> no i know mate i mean 40 grams of carbs using oats as the only source.
> 
> whats the best way to use it like this? 1 day on 1day off i heard but how long would be best for first time user? 8-10 weeks?


Mate there are a million opinions on this.

Personally I would use it for 1 week straight keeping every thing such as your normal diet and training the same just run 4-10iu every morning with breakfast and see how you get on. Not every body likes it and some people just gain fat.

Some thing like wake up have your shot then have a whey isolate shake with carbs coming from whatever carbs you like personally i enjoy a few pieces of fruit. Then an hour later have your oats along with a chicken breast or perhaps another shake. Keep the fat very low if any thing have a few grams of fish oil.

Another way that i find very good is have a shot with your meal after your work out. Not your work out shake but the meal after. But it only works if you train early as you don't want to take slin close to bed.


----------



## steve_1111uk

What would be best/safest for the first timer trying insulin? that fast acting insulins like novorapid or the slower acting insulins such as lantus?

Steve


----------



## kingprop

Everything/anything fast acting first mate, then if there's any problems its out of the system quick(er). Either way keep it low when you begin. Assess your reactions.


----------



## European

All4n said:


> Yeah it's just i'm currently using NA-rala and ALA so curious to whether to drop these or continue with them. I wil drop them inititially and consider reintroducing after assessing the metformin. I will dose at 7am (breakfast) and 7.30pm or 8pm (PWO).
> 
> I've read Avandia (Rosiglitazone) can be used in conjunction with metforim, do you have any experience with this med? What other meds do you know of that would be able to be stacked with metformin for enhanced effects?


With metformin you can use 15mg of Actos - a prescription med to increase insulin sensitivity.


----------



## Joshua

European said:


> With metformin you can use 15mg of Actos - a prescription med to increase insulin sensitivity.


Thiazolidinedione have a new bundle of risks associated with them especially for the heart. They alter metabolism in a quite fundamental way.

J


----------



## Papa Lazarou

I've used fast acting slin a number of times. Got up to 20iu ED without probs (10iu on waking, 10iu after training).

However would like to start using long acting insulin but not sure of the meal timings? I presume its unlike fast acting slin where you need to eat large amounts of carbs (for me about 5-6g/iu of fast acting slin) and can eat as normal?

There seems a lot of info on fast acting slin but nothing on long acting (don't want to be messing around before bed worrying about sleeping and going hypo on the old Nova Rapid!).

Cheers guys.


----------



## Farroid

A mate of mine went into a diabetic koma after jabbin that.


----------



## Mosquito

Hi,

I have had diabetes Type 1 since the age of 8 for almost 30 years.

I just would like to say that, first of all, there are many different types of insulin. Some of them have rapid action, some of them so-called retarded.

However, it is not all. There are three other divisions between insulins: some of insulins chemically equivalent to pig's insulin, some to bull's insulin, and the most modern insulins are chemically equivalent to human insulin. Human insulins are made using genetical engeneering and fully artificial. Human body may get tolerant to either pig's of bull's insulin after sometime. However, it is NOT the case with human insulin. I am using human insulin since 1990 and still it is OK for me.

Human insulins in pharmacies are divided into two categories - of quick action and retarded. If you want to increase the mass of your body using insulin then the best for you will be artificial human insulin of quick action. I just wonder how can you get it in the UK without having diabetes.

Artificial human insulin of quick action has the following qualities:

1. It must be injected under skin. The best place for an injection is your laps. Insulin injected in a lap starts working quicker than insulin injected in some other place.

2. Quick insulin starts working in between 10 and 30 minutes. So, it is good idea to have a meal rich in carbs just before the injection. People with diabetes calculate the dosage in the following way - 1 unit of insulin for 10 gramms of carbs. However, if your body produces its own insulin you have to be careful and do not take too much straight away as you may get into coma and can die. I had coma at the age of 10 - I went to bed at night and woke up the next day at 5 pm in the hospitals intensive therapy with tubes in my veins. Therefore, if you want to increase your weight using insulin then start with 2 units after hi-carb meal. if it is OK then add 1 unit two days later. It is a good idea ALWAYS to have Lucozade (NOT sport) if you use insulin. If you feel dizzy or drowsy, if you start sweating suddenly or have an attack of unexplained ridiculous laugh then it is called hypoglycaemia, i.e. low level of glucose in your blood. In this case IMMEDIATELY drink Lucozade or take Lucozade tablets. It helps. After drinking Lucozade have a big hi-carb meal. I have to warn you - hypoglycaemia has very negative impact on your nervous system - your nervous cells are just burnt when you have it.

3. Quick human insulin is active for about 6-7 hours after injecting it. The maximum effect it has in 2-3 hours after injection. Therefore, you have to have VERY hi-carb meal in 2-3 hours after an injection to avoid hypoglycaemia. And, of course, you MUST NOT sleep 7 hours after an injection.

And my advise for ALL who want to increase their weight using insulin - BE VERY VERY VERY BLOODY CAREFUL. Better if you use it being under supervision of another person who does not take it with you.

If you have some questions about insulin - i'll be happy to answer. It seems that I have a good chance to save someone's life some day. Good luck!


----------



## LittleChris

dutch_scott said:


> [
> 
> 3. Quick human insulin is active for about 6-7 hours after injecting it. The maximum effect it has in 2-3 hours after injection. Therefore, you have to have VERY hi-carb meal in 2-3 hours after an injection to avoid hypoglycaemia. And, of course, you MUST NOT sleep 7 hours after an injection.
> 
> !


huh?

why not?

if u use 20ius of novarapid, its peaked in 15 and 45 and done, gone, more risk of falling out of bed,

u can sleep literally an hour later

the risks are less each minute and each carb that passed,

bits of ur info is good for a google paste but this is ridiculous scare mongering

7 hours? jesus christ wr in names of jesus does it say this.

u dnt even need a very high carb meal just on the top side 10g per iu and even this is high unless uv been in ketosis or not eaten much.

not flaming just 2 hours and u can sleep, 7 is imo way way way too long to even worry. :thumb:


----------



## rixy

hi can anyone tell me why i get all symtoms of hypoglycemia but am definetly not diabetic. it nearly always happens if i go longer than 3 hours without food.any suggestions on why its happening. thanks . ps i dont use insulin


----------



## madmanc89

rixy said:


> hi can anyone tell me why i get all symtoms of hypoglycemia but am definetly not diabetic. it nearly always happens if i go longer than 3 hours without food.any suggestions on why its happening. thanks . ps i dont use insulin


 because you hijack other threads


----------



## rixy

sorry mate just a newbie we all make mistakes , take it easy


----------



## madmanc89

rixy said:


> sorry mate just a newbie we all make mistakes , take it easy


 was only jokin pal. like 2 wind people up. :thumb:


----------



## 1DAY

I have been thinking of using Inslin but its all so confusing when you read up on it.

I would like to do it when bulking with test deca and dbol. Ive heard you can just run it 2 weeks on two weeks off and start very small and there are certain supps that must be taken.

I train early so should i have it before i train or post work out?

ill guess ill never do it because i dont no enough about it.


----------



## Mad-Line

http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/muscle-research-forum/113941-cycle-advise-slin-novorapid.html

i still waiting some details thanks

Best Regards


----------



## Hard Trainer

kingprop said:


> Type one diabetics have no insulin production from the pancreas and require insulin from injection or pump. Type two have either insufficient insulin production, or have so much body tissue that the insulin released isnt enough (obesity and some bodybuilders) - therefore leaving blood glucose levels higher than normal. Metformin Hcl (Glucophage) makes tissues more sensitive to insulin. More sensitive body tissues means more uptake of nutrients.
> 
> PWO, or with each meal is good.


Very true matey, im a type 1 diabetic and have been for 4 years now. Ive been trying to look into manipulating it but no body seems to know (or say) lol


----------



## FatScrub

I don't like adding to resurrected threads, but I guess it's better than creating another subject. And it's a great thread anyway so here goes:

Is it really necessary to combine slin with something else? From reading the experiences here people seem to combine it with HGH. For me I have not used slin or HGH before, and I want to know the effects of a single compound first before starting to combine.

Would you say just adding 2-4 units slin EOD would be enough to seen gains over let's say 6 weeks? And then follow up with 3 months HGH?


----------



## 3752

Insulin is the most anabolic substance....you can use it on its own and many do the key is to make sure you don't use to much at a time so the fat gain is not excessive obvouisly a clean diet around injections is key..


----------



## hilly

from my point of view of you like into the actions of insul then look into the actions of gh it just seems sensible to have the 2 together. like a pen and paper. then add in some test and boooom away u go.


----------



## blackbeard

FatScrub said:


> I don't like adding to resurrected threads, but I guess it's better than creating another subject. And it's a great thread anyway so here goes:
> 
> Is it really necessary to combine slin with something else? From reading the experiences here people seem to combine it with HGH. For me I have not used slin or HGH before, and I want to know the effects of a single compound first before starting to combine.
> 
> Would you say just adding 2-4 units slin EOD would be enough to seen gains over let's say 6 weeks? And then follow up with 3 months HGH?


 Try the protocol below,taking the first drink 20-30 minutes pre workout alongside 6-9 units of fast acting slin.I do this on 3 workout days per week,no steroids or g.h. It's person dependent but i can gain 3-4kg with this over six weeks with no fat gain to speak of.It seems to lean me out if anything!!

Pre Workout:

3-10g Creatine

3-10g Glutamine

15-20g Essential Amino Acids

15g BCAA

30-50 Vitargo

1tsp electrolyte drink powder

During Workout:

3-5g Creatine

3-10g Glutamine

15-20g Essential Amino Acids

15g BCAA

50 Vitargo

1tsp electrolyte drink powder

Post Workout

3-5g Creatine

3-10g Glutamine

40-50g Whey

50-75 Vitargo

1tsp electrolyte drink powder


----------



## 3752

blackbeard said:


> Try the protocol below,taking the first drink 20-30 minutes pre workout alongside 6-9 units of fast acting slin.I do this on 3 workout days per week,no steroids or g.h. It's person dependent but i can gain 3-4kg with this over six weeks with no fat gain to speak of.It seems to lean me out if anything!!
> 
> Pre Workout:
> 
> 3-10g Creatine
> 
> 3-10g Glutamine
> 
> 15-20g Essential Amino Acids
> 
> 15g BCAA
> 
> 30-50 Vitargo
> 
> 1tsp electrolyte drink powder
> 
> During Workout:
> 
> 3-5g Creatine
> 
> 3-10g Glutamine
> 
> 15-20g Essential Amino Acids
> 
> 15g BCAA
> 
> 50 Vitargo
> 
> 1tsp electrolyte drink powder
> 
> Post Workout
> 
> 3-5g Creatine
> 
> 3-10g Glutamine
> 
> 40-50g Whey
> 
> 50-75 Vitargo
> 
> 1tsp electrolyte drink powder


i have used Slin Pre-WO and it works very well but and it is a huge But it is very very risky due to how your blood sugar naturally reacts during a workout not something i would suggest to just anyone to use


----------



## FatScrub

Thanks guys.

No pre-wo slin because I'm on a low carb diet anyway. 6 meals (including the shakes) a day with 30-40 grams of complex carbs. That's Milos Sarcev's method above, right? It was mentioned a few pages back in this thread. But yeah that's not for me.

I'll do 2-4 iu 1.5 hour after my post-wo shake, along with my post-wo meal. Will start this saturday with 2 iu, am excited 

I won't combine it yet - need to experience it standalone otherwise I won't be able to distinguish between gains from one compound to another.


----------



## xpower

Just a had a read through this thread & I must say it raises some very interesting points.

I wont be using slin any time soon (not that I need to yet anyway)but it sure is an enlightening read:thumbup1:


----------



## Hard Trainer

xpower said:


> Just a had a read through this thread & I must say it raises some very interesting points.
> 
> I wont be using slin any time soon (not that I need to yet anyway)but it sure is an enlightening read:thumbup1:


It is a brilliant thread. Im tryin to workout how to manipulate insulin in my favour with being a diabetic. Noone seems to tell me so im picking bits up from reading threads like this


----------



## dazc

Hard Trainer said:


> It is a brilliant thread. Im tryin to workout how to manipulate insulin in my favour with being a diabetic. Noone seems to tell me so im picking bits up from reading threads like this


hi mate, the problem is, that being diabetic means that you wont react to it in the same way that a non diabetic will, so even the most experienced of insulin users wont really have much of an idea about how you could best use it.

AFAIK, diabetics tend to find it harder to gain muscle


----------



## bert.edge

dazc said:


> hi mate, the problem is, that being diabetic means that you wont react to it in the same way that a non diabetic will, so even the most experienced of insulin users wont really have much of an idea about how you could best use it.
> 
> *AFAIK, diabetics tend to find it harder to gain muscle*


LOL - you wanna tell that to one of the lads at the gym - the guys a monster!

Uses lots of slin and knows his stuff - obviously been using AAS for a very long time, but wowzer, the guys huge!

to be fair, been training a very long time 30+ years, and only got diabetes late on in life so maybe its just helped gains? in comparison with someone whos had it since birth/early years?


----------



## dazc

lol, maybe thats why hes diabetic?


----------



## hungryhorse

nov rapid can u take this first thing in morning i dont train till 7 at nite and ive been told u have to stay awake for 4 hours after the injection ive done 5 cycles of gear been training 3 years im 14.7 stone and 27 im bulking not looking to stay lean at min.and how much (iu) to take as first time????


----------



## m118

dazc said:


> hi mate, the problem is, that being diabetic means that you *wont react to it in the same way* that a non diabetic will, so even the most experienced of insulin users wont really have much of an idea about how you could best use it.
> 
> AFAIK, diabetics tend to find it harder to gain muscle


why do you think that is? or is that a type 1 would have to use significantly more insulin to get the same relative effect?


----------



## Shreds

Pscarb said:


> i have used Slin Pre-WO and it works very well but and it is a huge But it is very very risky due to how your blood sugar naturally reacts during a workout not something i would suggest to just anyone to use


I know this is slightly old, but paul, surely the during workout shake after every working set, you will keep your sugars up. And also having dextrose on you, so purely out of interest how is it risky during workouts?

Would have assumed if you feel light headed, dizzy, fuzzy vision etc just chomp on a dextrose?


----------



## bodysculpt

Shreds said:


> I know this is slightly old, but paul, surely the during workout shake after every working set, you will keep your sugars up. And also having dextrose on you, so purely out of interest how is it risky during workouts?
> 
> Would have assumed if you feel light headed, dizzy, fuzzy vision etc just chomp on a dextrose?


This is an awesome thread, Id like to bump this one, if youve have a good Carb 20g-40g/Pro meal and then your slin 2-4iu slin slightly after 15min to 30min?? to let natural slin do its work first? then you workout say 2 hours later, will that still be a "pre workout" slin injection, will you still get benefits even though its been 2 hours since slin dose? and do you need to even worry about having low BS?


----------



## trainiac

This is a super-informative thread. I have been thinking about it all day.

First, I can see a rationale for using insulin on non-training days, since the body is still needing nutrients on the off-days to repair and rebuild muscle tissues. Maybe best to use slightly less insulin and only 1x per day on the off days.

Second, I am confused by metformin. Near the front of this thread, it is correctly stated that metformin increases insulin sensivity, which is good and means you don't need massive doses of insulin. However, in reviewing metformin over at the life extension site, www.lef.org, it shows that metformin tricks the body into thinking it's in a calorie-restricted state, reduces appetite, and leads to weight loss. That seems contradictory to me, especially if I am using in insulin to gain weight. Is the idea of metformin for bodybuilders that it the extra calories we deliberately consume will overcome the body's response to metformin as a weightloss drug?


----------



## DeDe

I learn a lot about insulin from this thread and I have been using it for a last week 3x 10iu every other day.

I'm thinking now to introduce 1000mg metformin to this cycle to keep insulin sensitivity high.

Is it better to have 1000mg metformin every day and just lower the amount of insulin administered to something around 5iu or maybe have metformin only on a days without insulin, or maybe just forget it and wait till I finish this insulin cycle in next 3 weeks and then start 1000-1500mg of metformin?


----------



## gooner fc

DeDe said:


> I learn a lot about insulin from this thread and I have been using it for a last week 3x 10iu every other day.
> 
> I'm thinking now to introduce 1000mg metformin to this cycle to keep insulin sensitivity high.
> 
> Is it better to have 1000mg metformin every day and just lower the amount of insulin administered to something around 5iu or maybe have metformin only on a days without insulin, or maybe just forget it and wait till I finish this insulin cycle in next 3 weeks and then start 1000-1500mg of metformin?


Hi mate i'm gonna start using slin for the first time this week, i got metformin on hand but will use it when i finished my slin cycle for one month and then repeat cycle, i'll only be doing 6iu x2 aday. What have you been running the slin with, and also whats your meals like after slin shot??


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## DeDe

Im currently on 1g sustanon and 750mg deca weekly plus 50mg dbol as a kickstart, also 10iu of hgh on days with insulin and 4iu's on days without insulin.

10min after slin injection im having shake with 50mg dextrose 10g creatine and 15g bcaa then after 10min another shake with 60g of whey isolate

1h after that its a proper meal 130g of rice and 250g chicken then 2h after is 120g of porridge oats and chicken or whey protein

Repeating this whole cycle after another slin injection 2h later.

It's also my first proper cycle with insulin so Im trying to monitor my blood sugar level and adjust the carbs


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## Sureno

KP this has been one helluva' read, very informative but very confused, im doing the pwo shot but want to try the split dosage, just worried about going hypo and not sure i could handle a meal with a weight gain on top???

anyway my head hurts now, you got a protocol on aspirin? :wacko:


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## 3752

Sureno said:


> KP this has been one helluva' read, very informative but very confused, im doing the pwo shot but want to try the split dosage, just worried about going hypo and not sure i could handle a meal with a weight gain on top???
> 
> anyway my head hurts now, you got a protocol on aspirin? :wacko:


so what is your question? can you split the dose....Yes, will you go hypo....no if you eat enogh carbs....


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## Sureno

Pscarb said:


> so what is your question? can you split the dose....Yes, will you go hypo....no if you eat enogh carbs....


how long between each shot should i leave, im using novorapid, onset is 10-20min, peaks 1.5hrs and duration is 5hrs, should i shoot every 5hrs or less, im worried about the so called "overlapping" effect? was going to do 3x5iu

cheers mate


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## J.Smith

Im using humalog atm...10iu pre breakky, and 10iu pre workout...been doing this three times now...

Only thing im feeling is a slightly better pump...is that about right?

Also...on non workout days im not using it atall...could i add it in pre breakky on workout days?


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## littledaz

Using x3 10iu's eod protocol. (or can i do mon, tues, thus,fri?)

How do you plan this into you diet? Do you inject with the meal but then what about the second wave?

Pointers to information will be great.


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## J.Smith

BUMP.

If your using slin pre workout...would doing more volume and drops sets etc help..as that will help push the nutrients into the muscles better


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## Superhorse

Aftershock said:


> ^^^^ and the increase in insulin sensitivity only happens in muscle cells not fat cells :thumbup1:


Sorry for digging this quote up but so does that mean metformin is ideal for a lean bulk because it won't impact fat cells as much as actual slin?


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## Elvis82

Pscarb said:


> Excellant set of Posts KP...to many think that insulin is the route to being massive quickly i have used slin but not as much as many....i am going to give the metformin a try on this cycle...
> 
> i was down at castles today chatting with Warren he mentioned he knows you..
> 
> i am down all week so hopefully i will bump into you mate....


Sorry to drag up a very old post Paul....

Did you try the metformin on your cycle? Was this just on its own or with small doses of slin? How were the results? Any problems or advise?

Thanks


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## gearchange

I know everyone talks about metformin and slin. Well metformin does not make you produce any more insulin it only makes you more sensitive to what you have already and therefore it makes for a better environment as a bodybuilder. You can't get fat or go hypo on them and up to 2000mg a day is the norm and safe,They should be taken with food and you should buildup to this as they can make you feel sick.

There is a drug called Gliclazide that actually makes you produce more insulin that works very well with metformin.You can go hypo with this so treat it the same as you would insulin..

Then of course you have insulin which used in conjunction with the above drugs or on its own can be very powerful for gaining mass.


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## shorney

I started at

Monday 4ius post workout and mixed up a protein drink double scoop plus creatine and 50g of dextrose in it and was fine

Wednesday 6ius the same as above with a good balanced meal an hour later

Friday 8ius upped the dextrose to a scoop and a half and a meal an hour later I could tell I was getting close as a bit shakey so done my blood it was 4.8 ate that and was fine again

Monday 10ius same again but didn't leave it so long to eat this time and was fine again

I'm running 50mgs of alpha pharma T3 a day

800mg of tri test a week

600mg of tri tren a week

I seem to be getting on fine with it but that doesn't mean anyone else will so be warned it dangerous and it can happen to you so be warned but used sensabley it works well


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## Mark2021

Bumping this, what a read!

Has anyone else since tried new methods and found them to work?

Im researching the slin with meals as I often train late at night so PWO isn't good for me.


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## Dark sim

Mark2021 said:


> Bumping this, what a read!
> 
> Has anyone else since tried new methods and found them to work?
> 
> Im researching the slin with meals as I often train late at night so PWO isn't good for me.


Eat a meal, jab 3iu, training days only.


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## Mark2021

Dark sim said:


> Eat a meal, jab 3iu, training days only.


how many meals can this he done for?

slin used will be novorapid


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## Dark sim

Mark2021 said:


> how many meals can this he done for?
> 
> slin used will be novorapid


Would limit to 3 carb meals


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## solidcecil

Dark sim said:


> Would limit to 3 carb meals


trying to PM mate, think your inbox is full @Dark sim


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## Dark sim

solidcecil said:


> trying to PM mate, think your inbox is full @Dark sim


empty now


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## barksie

> Bumping this, what a read!
> 
> Has anyone else since tried new methods and found them to work?
> 
> Im researching the slin with meals as I often train late at night so PWO isn't good for me.


yeah found this thread the other week, some good info on slin, would be better to have updates off original posters from 2008


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