# DNP Weight Loss



## ZRJaacques (Jun 21, 2015)

Did anybody notice that during their cycle that they lost more weight than anticipated?

I'm running 500 mg right now (Dr Muscle) and seem to be losing about a pound a day.

I'm also running it alongside a PSMF, but most people seem to have incredible results regardless of diet.

What's your take on it?


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## Madoxx (Nov 7, 2010)

Suppose it depends how much you have to loose? ALso, dont forget the first week you will loose glycogen also. How many days are you on?


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## ZRJaacques (Jun 21, 2015)

Madoxx said:


> Suppose it depends how much you have to loose? ALso, dont forget the first week you will loose glycogen also. How many days are you on?


I have about 34 more pounds to lose. I'm one week in today. I did three days at 250 mg (Monday-Wednesday) and the last four days (Thursday-Sunday) at 500 mg. I'm down to 194.1 from 203.4.


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## vildgut (Dec 12, 2013)

first weightloss is just carbs and water leaving the muscles due to the dnp.


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## ZRJaacques (Jun 21, 2015)

vildgut said:


> first weightloss is just carbs and water leaving the muscles due to the dnp.


I understand that but I've read over numerous logs where people have continued to drop close to a pound a day over the next few weeks even at a 250 mg dose.


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## vildgut (Dec 12, 2013)

ZRJaacques said:


> I understand that but I've read over numerous logs where people have continued to drop close to a pound a day over the next few weeks even at a 250 mg dose.


1 pound a day just seem so like alot to me but tell us how it goes


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## zyphy (Jun 23, 2014)

vildgut said:


> 1 pound a day just seem so like alot to me but tell us how it goes


It's possible depending on how much fat you have to lose


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## troponin (Apr 2, 2014)

34 fvkin lbs to lose and you didnt think to alter cardio/diet first. wtf


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## Madoxx (Nov 7, 2010)

Mate dont take this the wrong way but your initial posts states youve heared DNP is a wonder drug and it people loose a lb a day.

It sounds to me like youve decided in your mind that your simply going to run DNP for 34 days and be ripped. May come as a shock but even DNP is not a rush game, get your diet in check, get your training in check.

How old are you? suddenly loosing 34 lbs will have an impact, what will your shape be like after it? Your target weight is 170lbs? 12 stone? and your now 15 stone? I can imagine your skin shrinking that fast unless your very young or have very good skin genetics?

What suppliments are you taking? Are you running T3? your on 500mg a day, thats a hefty dose! you also jumped the dose after only 3 days of evaluating the product you havent even hit peak dose and your increasing? strange.


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## Big Man 123 (Aug 1, 2013)

ZRJaacques said:


> Did anybody notice that during their cycle that they lost more weight than anticipated?
> 
> I'm running 500 mg right now (Dr Muscle) and seem to be losing about a pound a day.
> 
> ...


You are losing 1 pound a day on 500 mg's a day? That DNP is seriously underdosed then, that's what I lost on 250 mg's a day with Yellow Magic, thanks for the warning as my beloved Yellow Magic went away and I have to look at another one.

I will do my research to confirm that everyone have this kind of results on DM's DNP so I never bother using it.


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## Madoxx (Nov 7, 2010)

Big Man 123 said:


> You are losing 1 pound a day on 500 mg's a day? That DNP is seriously underdosed then, that's what I lost on 250 mg's a day with Yellow Magic, thanks for the warning as my beloved Yellow Magic went away and I have to look at another one.
> 
> I will do my research to confirm that everyone have this kind of results on DM's DNP so I never bother using it.


How much did you have to loose? Im on 250 Yellow magic and weighing tomorrow. Dont think im doing a lb a day mind!


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## Big Man 123 (Aug 1, 2013)

Madoxx said:


> How much did you have to loose? Im on 250 Yellow magic and weighing tomorrow. Dont think im doing a lb a day mind!


In fact that's not what happens with me, after finishing the cycle and losing the water, the total amount of fat lost equals to 1 pound a day but I never see 1 pound less on the scale each day, I have done 3 cycles, last one was last year, about this date too (Winter time), all of them with Yellow Magic and it's always the same, the scale shows weights that make no sense at all but after finishing the cycle that's the average, 1 pound of fat lost everyday.

DNP works in a very weird way lol.

I'm on the day 15 of my 25 days cycle, 10 days to go, 4.5 lbs of fat left, let's do it!!

Looking forward to your results mate!!! Good luck :thumb:


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## ZRJaacques (Jun 21, 2015)

Madoxx said:


> Mate dont take this the wrong way but your initial posts states youve heared DNP is a wonder drug and it people loose a lb a day.
> 
> It sounds to me like youve decided in your mind that your simply going to run DNP for 34 days and be ripped. May come as a shock but even DNP is not a rush game, get your diet in check, get your training in check.
> 
> ...


I by no means think DNP is a "miracle" drug, but it's properties are second to none. It's ability to increase metabolic rate is unlike anything I've ever heard of and nothing comes close. I've done my research and have read hundreds of logs, and thousands of posts over the last few weeks and have learned a lot about the chemical.

I do plan on running it for the next few weeks to see how my progress goes, but I don't simply think I'm going to lose 34 pounds in the next 34 days. I'll be satisfied with any amount of results. My diet is in check (PSMF) and my training is in check as well.

I'm 23 and from what I've also read, skin elasticity is largely genetic and even when I've done a PSMF in the past and lost a large amount of weight in a short period of time, I did not have an ounce of loose skin on my body. Now by no means was I losing weight at a pound per day, but it was fast never the less. My goal weight is 160 pounds and from there I plan on going on a long term controlled bulk. If my skin can not keep up with the weight loss, then that's the consequence I'll have to deal with. So far though, I haven't seen anyone complain about loose skin at the end of their DNP cycle.

I'm taking a multi vitamin, fish oil, Creatine and Psyllium Whole Husks every now and then. I'm not taking every supplement recommended on every board because I believe most of them are a waste of money. I'm not taking T3 and don't plan to. I've seen many people run their cycles without it, and T3 can be very catabolic when ran without AAS.

I took 250 mg for 3 days to assess my tolerance and allergies to the chemical. At times it can be a bit uncomfortable because of the heat, but as long as I'm next to a fan or an AC I'm good. Otherwise it can get ugly fast. A lot of people seem to think 400-600 mg a day to be a moderate dose and it doesn't seem to be overwhelming.



Big Man 123 said:


> You are losing 1 pound a day on 500 mg's a day? That DNP is seriously underdosed then, that's what I lost on 250 mg's a day with Yellow Magic, thanks for the warning as my beloved Yellow Magic went away and I have to look at another one.
> 
> I will do my research to confirm that everyone have this kind of results on DM's DNP so I never bother using it.


Actually I've lost 15.6 pounds on my first 10 days so far so that averages out to be about 1.5 pounds per day. Even after the initial water weight loss/glycogen depletion I've had 2 big wooshes in just the last 3 days. One at 1.8 pounds, and another at 4 pounds last night. I weighed in at 187.8 pounds this morning. Down 6.3 from my post 3 days ago.


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## Vincey (Jun 12, 2015)

This stuff sounds insane.

I'd be very apprehensive about taking it as I don't know much about it apart from it makes you sweat and you lose weight.

I've got a decent diet sorted and I'm losing weight that way and with my training but I'll be honest it is slow, slow to the point where I feel a bit deflated at times where I don't often lose more than a couple of pounds a week.


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## zyphy (Jun 23, 2014)

ZRJaacques said:


> I by no means think DNP is a "miracle" drug


lol yes it is. you can try and outeat dnp but most will not be able to handling the sweating

if it wasnt so easy to overdose on, it'd be prescribed as a fat loss drug for the overweight (which is what it once was used for)


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## zyphy (Jun 23, 2014)

Big Man 123 said:


> In fact that's not what happens with me, after finishing the cycle and losing the water, the total amount of fat lost equals to 1 pound a day but I never see 1 pound less on the scale each day, I have done 3 cycles, last one was last year, about this date too (Winter time), all of them with Yellow Magic and it's always the same, the scale shows weights that make no sense at all but after finishing the cycle that's the average, 1 pound of fat lost everyday.
> 
> DNP works in a very weird way lol.
> 
> ...


iirc for every 1 lb of fat you lose, you hold 1.5lbs of water lol (if you're not on t3/supplementing enough with vit-c). ignore the scale, wait till after your dnp run is done is the best way to do it


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## Madoxx (Nov 7, 2010)

ZRJaacques said:


> I've done my research and have read hundreds of logs, and thousands of posts over the last few weeks and have learned a lot about the chemical.


This concerns me a lot, all the research you have done and you went from 250 a day up to 500 a day after only 3 days. No guide out there will say to double the dose after 3 days.



ZRJaacques said:


> I'm taking a multi vitamin, fish oil, Creatine and Psyllium Whole Husks every now and then.


So the only vits your taking is a multi vit, not bothering with ALA or Vit E as anti toxants? Or even vit c for water retention? No T3 means you will hold a lot of water so consider Vit C


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## Madoxx (Nov 7, 2010)

zyphy said:


> iirc for every 1 lb of fat you lose, you hold 1.5lbs of water lol (if you're not on t3/supplementing enough with vit-c). ignore the scale, wait till after your dnp run is done is the best way to do it


I was running crappy BRL for a week with no t3, I started t3 @ 50mcg and overnight dropped 2lb, this continued for 3 days and I dropped 7lb over the 3 days just from T3 supplimentation sorting the water


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## zyphy (Jun 23, 2014)

Madoxx said:


> I was running crappy BRL for a week with no t3, I started t3 @ 50mcg and overnight dropped 2lb, this continued for 3 days and I dropped 7lb over the 3 days just from T3 supplimentation sorting the water


i hope you're using some form of aas whilst on t3, otherwise you will be wasting away muscle


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## Madoxx (Nov 7, 2010)

zyphy said:


> i hope you're using some form of aas whilst on t3, otherwise you will be wasting away muscle


Just a little drop here and there


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## zyphy (Jun 23, 2014)

Madoxx said:


> This concerns me a lot, all the research you have done and you went from 250 a day up to 500 a day after only 3 days. No guide out there will say to double the dose after 3 days.


nobody needs 500mg (of legit dnp) that's the fat ****s who cant stop eating junk food whilst dieting. low dose + cardio + decent deficit is all you need, dnp will then work its magic within that


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## ZRJaacques (Jun 21, 2015)

Madoxx said:


> This concerns me a lot, all the research you have done and you went from 250 a day up to 500 a day after only 3 days. No guide out there will say to double the dose after 3 days.
> 
> So the only vits your taking is a multi vit, not bothering with ALA or Vit E as anti toxants? Or even vit c for water retention? No T3 means you will hold a lot of water so consider Vit C


What's the point? I took it for 3 days without an allergic reaction and I don't seem to be suffering all too bad on 500 mg. I only read about a few people who couldn't handle 250 mg so I wanted to give 500 a shot.

I'm not supplementing with vitamin C, but I'm not stalling on the scale so the water retention hasn't bothered me all too much. I'm getting a good amount of vitamin C in my multi, and from my pre workout as well as some of my protein powders.


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## ZRJaacques (Jun 21, 2015)

zyphy said:


> nobody needs 500mg (of legit dnp) that's the fat ****s who cant stop eating junk food whilst dieting. low dose + cardio + decent deficit is all you need, dnp will then work its magic within that


I hate to think of my self as a fat ass who "can't stop eating junk" but my diet has been in check and I wanted to see how effective 500 mg of DNP can be alongside a PSMF.


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## ZRJaacques (Jun 21, 2015)

Bump


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## zyphy (Jun 23, 2014)

ZRJaacques said:


> I hate to think of myself as a fat ass who "can't stop eating junk" but my diet has been in check and I wanted to see how effective 500 mg of DNP can be alongside a PSMF.


if you have true legit 500mg of dnp you wont last very long lol. also the amount of fat you burn as you increase the dose isnt linear, so you will be putting extra strain on your body for no reason.


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## Madoxx (Nov 7, 2010)

ZRJaacques said:


> What's the point? I took it for 3 days without an allergic reaction and I don't seem to be suffering all too bad on 500 mg. I only read about a few people who couldn't handle 250 mg so I wanted to give 500 a shot.
> 
> I'm not supplementing with vitamin C, but I'm not stalling on the scale so the water retention hasn't bothered me all too much. I'm getting a good amount of vitamin C in my multi, and from my pre workout as well as some of my protein powders.


Mate, i have gone up to 600mg of BRL DNP and was fine. However at 375mg of "Banned Labs" I was ****ed. I lasted 3 days and dropped the dose back down by skipping a day.

All your research and surely you know you dont hit peak dose of DNP until around day 7. So to increase the dose after 3 days when you havent experienced if you can handle 250mg yet is quite silly.

Look at your multi vit, is it 4g of vit c? I imagine its about 100mg, which is 40x less than the vit c dose im running.


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## ZRJaacques (Jun 21, 2015)

zyphy said:


> if you have true legit 500mg of dnp you wont last very long lol. also the amount of fat you burn as you increase the dose isnt linear, so you will be putting extra strain on your body for no reason.


Well I guess I'll never really know whether or not it's a real 500 mg dose but the source seems to be reputable/legit. I've had good results and it seems to be working so far.


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## ZRJaacques (Jun 21, 2015)

Actually you hit your peak dose around day 10 of a dose. I'm about to hit day 10 of 500 mg this Sunday so I'll let you know how I feel.

My total intake of vitamin C comes out to about 1 gram a day. The water retention isn't bothering me. I can tell I'm holding some but it's still not affecting the scale. I know this probably has something to do with the deficit I'm in but I'll just have to wait until my cycle is over with the see the water retention go away.


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## Big Man 123 (Aug 1, 2013)

ZRJaacques said:


> I by no means think DNP is a "miracle" drug


I strongly disagree with that and I think that after you finish your cycle you will disagree too lol.

Last year I lost 20 pounds of fat in 3 weeks, back in the days it took me 3 months to do it naturally, that is, DNP made me lose fat 4 times faster and at a low dose.

If there is a miracle drug, that one is DNP without a doubt.



ZRJaacques said:


> I do plan on running it for the next few weeks to see how my progress goes, but I don't simply think I'm going to lose 34 pounds in the next 34 days. I'll be satisfied with any amount of results. My diet is in check (PSMF) and my training is in check as well.


Be careful, don't forget that you store toxins on your fatty tissue, that is, you release them on your body when you lose fat and in this case you are doing it at a crazy fast rate, so have a watch at these high dosed long cycles.

Do a research at what is needed for the liver to work at its peak and do an effort on doing that so it can clean your body at the best way possible.



ZRJaacques said:


> I'm taking a multi vitamin, fish oil, Creatine and Psyllium Whole Husks every now and then. I'm not taking every supplement recommended on every board because I believe most of them are a waste of money. I'm not taking T3 and don't plan to. I've seen many people run their cycles without it, and T3 can be very catabolic when ran without AAS.


T3 is not catabolic at all if you take it at a HRT dose, the problem comes when you take more than that.



ZRJaacques said:


> I took 250 mg for 3 days to assess my tolerance and allergies to the chemical. At times it can be a bit uncomfortable because of the heat, but as long as I'm next to a fan or an AC I'm good. Otherwise it can get ugly fast. A lot of people seem to think 400-600 mg a day to be a moderate dose and it doesn't seem to be overwhelming.


There's no way on this planet that you can know your tolerance or allergies to DNP in 3 days, you need at least 6 days, in fact you just did the number one mistake people do with DNP and the reason why people die on the compound: They believe they can stand a higher dose because they felt nothing on the first days, you won't know what it can do to you or your ability to tolerate the dose in less than 1 week.

You said you did a ton of research but you missed the most important point.



ZRJaacques said:


> Actually I've lost 15.6 pounds on my first 10 days so far so that averages out to be about 1.5 pounds per day. Even after the initial water weight loss/glycogen depletion I've had 2 big wooshes in just the last 3 days. One at 1.8 pounds, and another at 4 pounds last night. I weighed in at 187.8 pounds this morning. Down 6.3 from my post 3 days ago.


Good results mate, I knew that DM's DNP couldn't be that bad lol, thanks for the info.


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## Big Man 123 (Aug 1, 2013)

Madoxx said:


> Just a little drop here and there


LMFAO :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:


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## Big Man 123 (Aug 1, 2013)

zyphy said:


> iirc for every 1 lb of fat you lose, you hold 1.5lbs of water lol (if you're not on t3/supplementing enough with vit-c).


Good info there mate! thanks :thumb:



zyphy said:


> ignore the scale, wait till after your dnp run is done is the best way to do it


Absolutely, in fact if you are more strict about it you could say that the scale doesn't count for shít while running or not a DNP cycle lol :laugh:

For me, the mirror has the last word in whatever goal you may have about your look.


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## ZRJaacques (Jun 21, 2015)

Big Man 123 said:


> I strongly disagree with that and I think that after you finish your cycle you will disagree too lol.
> 
> Last year I lost 20 pounds of fat in 3 weeks, back in the days it took me 3 months to do it naturally, that is, DNP made me lose fat 4 times faster and at a low dose.
> 
> ...


Maybe I'll believe that sometime in the future but I'll have to see where I eventually end up. See that's what begs my very first question of this thread. I asked whether or not people lose more weight than they anticipate or even calculate. You said you lost 20 pounds of fat in 3 weeks, taking in 250 mg a day of DNP and eating close to maintenance. I'm eating a PSMF/VLC diet while on 500 mg of DNP and my calculations put me at about a 3500 calorie deficit every day. But I've obviously lost more than my calculations so far and I bet if you were to calculate your weight loss you wouldn't come out to a 20 pound loss in those 3 weeks eating at the deficit you were at and at 250 mg of DNP.

I might end up investing in taking some additional Vitamin C/E supplementation for the antioxidants they provide.

I don't plan on running T3.

As far as assessing my tolerance/allergies to 250 mg, yeah maybe I didn't quite wait long enough but I lucked out in that respect. 500 mg isn't unbearable, and as long as I'm in front of an AC or a fan, I'm usually fine. I'm also consuming a very small amount of carbs so the heat/sweating might not be as bad as other's reported at a 500 mg dose. Which also helps me sleep better as I'm not getting up 3-4 times in the middle of the night to change my sheets.


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## zyphy (Jun 23, 2014)

Big Man 123 said:


> Good info there mate! thanks :thumb:
> 
> Absolutely, in fact if you are more strict about it you could say that the scale doesn't count for shít while running or not a DNP cycle lol :laugh:
> 
> For me, the mirror has the last word in whatever goal you may have about your look.


For sure, the mirror never lies


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## zyphy (Jun 23, 2014)

ZRJaacques said:


> Well I guess I'll never really know whether or not it's a real 500 mg dose but the source seems to be reputable/legit. I've had good results and it seems to be working so far.


Not sure what you're using but 500mg of the yellow potion will have you tied to your bed with a fan on you all day long


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## ZRJaacques (Jun 21, 2015)

zyphy said:


> Not sure what you're using but 500mg of the yellow potion will have you tied to your bed with a fan on you all day long


Well I'm using 500 mg crystal and it's from a reputable source. Like I said, it's not a walk in the park but individual tolerance to certain compounds obviously vary. Conciliator even agreed that tolerance varies greatly and that 500 mg crystal is considered a moderate dose. I haven't heard of too many people being "chained to their bed" on 500 mg.


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## zyphy (Jun 23, 2014)

ZRJaacques said:


> Well I'm using 500 mg crystal and it's from a reputable source. Like I said, it's not a walk in the park but individual tolerance to certain compounds obviously vary. Conciliator even agreed that tolerance varies greatly and that 500 mg crystal is considered a moderate dose. I haven't heard of too many people being "chained to their bed" on 500 mg.


Crystal and powder aren't the same mg for mg. powder is far stronger. Wouldn't advise you to go any higher though


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## ZRJaacques (Jun 21, 2015)

zyphy said:


> Crystal and powder aren't the same mg for mg. powder is far stronger. Wouldn't advise you to go any higher though


I don't plan on it. I'm just trying to figure out where these extra pounds of weight loss are coming from. I know that water/glycogen depletion can take up a good amount, but after most of that is gone the rate of weight loss seems to outweigh my expectations. I'm not complaining, I'm just trying to figure it out. I don't know whether or not the amount built up in your system once you've reached your peak at a certain dose has something to do with it. I thought that for every 100 mg of crystal ingested warranted an 11% percent increase in metabolic rate. But I'm starting to think that once you've reached your peak that it might be a little more than this.


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## Madoxx (Nov 7, 2010)

Might considering investing in vit c and e? mate they are pennies - if your more concerned about your wallet than your health then DNP isnt for you.

You been given advice after advice, yet you always have something to come back with and some excuse about why your doing things the way you are doing them. The people offering you advice are speaking from experience, your on day 9 ? So you have 9 days experience with DNP. Yet everything said you just ignore.

You state " I wanted to see how effective 500 mg of DNP can be alongside a PSMF" - if youve never run DNP before what are you comparing this too? how can you decide how effective it is if youve never run it?

Crack on with your 500mg a day and increasing your doses as/when you fancy. However bear in mind that DNP potency differs between brands, heck it even differs between batches...... Ive had a batch that the potency changed just from opening a new tub with a different expiry date.

Anyhow, Im out, good luck with your goals.


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## monojfk (Sep 20, 2014)

Hi , I finished a 10 day cycle last month and kept it off no problem , I lost around 7ib time water retention was gone , started off on 125 yellow magic then doubled up on day 6 for next 5 days, got to be honest , sides weren't too bad , split them AM 6.30am ish then around 7 pm , Lethargy did kick in around day 7 to the point I could have fell asleep within minutes lol sheets were sodden and I went through around 3 night tops a night so it appears most of my sides are at night which obviously suits due to work , Am about to go on another cycle in the next fortnight as I have nights planned the next two weekends and obviously no alcohol etc, looking at 15 days this time, question is re T3 which I have in the cupboard , it's seems most are split on opinions about running it or not , Pros and cons please ?? all help would be appreciated thanks.


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## ZRJaacques (Jun 21, 2015)

Madoxx said:


> Might considering investing in vit c and e? mate they are pennies - if your more concerned about your wallet than your health then DNP isnt for you.
> 
> You been given advice after advice, yet you always have something to come back with and some excuse about why your doing things the way you are doing them. The people offering you advice are speaking from experience, your on day 9 ? So you have 9 days experience with DNP. Yet everything said you just ignore.
> 
> ...


Did I not just say I was going to invest in some additional Vitamin C/E. It's not like they're being completely neglected. I get some through my other supplements and vegetables.

What "advice" have I ignored time after time? I said I'm not running T3 and that's about it. If you can find me evidence that T3 is ABSOLUTELY CRITICAL in DNP use, then prove your case. As far as everything else goes there's not much that I've ignored. I don't plan on increasing the dose past 500 mg per day.

What do you mean by "seeing how effective it is." I said I wanted to see how effective DNP is, isn't that why anybody would run it? I'm really not sure what you were trying to get at there. So far my comparison with a PSMF/DNP has vastly outplayed every other dieting scenario I've ever been apart of. That's enough for me to compare it to.

Do the F*****g research yourself if you don't believe Dr Muscle is a reputable brand. I don't care. Like I said it's working for me and my results are speaking for itself.


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## ZRJaacques (Jun 21, 2015)

MissMartinez said:


> 250mg Dr Muscle caps = 125mg Yellow magic for sides in my opinion


Is yellow Magic crystal or powder?


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## ZRJaacques (Jun 21, 2015)

MissMartinez said:


> I'm not 100% sure, I thought I read it was crystal though.


Oh okay! Well at least you have a tried both and have a good comparison. I've heard good things about Yellow Magic!


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## zyphy (Jun 23, 2014)

MissMartinez said:


> I'm not 100% sure, I thought I read it was crystal though.


Powder; yellow magic is very strong


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## LeXtheFlex (Oct 13, 2014)

Can somebody PM me a good and reliable dnp source?


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## Tomahawk (Dec 24, 2014)

zyphy said:


> iirc for every 1 lb of fat you lose, you hold 1.5lbs of water lol (if you're not on t3/supplementing enough with vit-c). ignore the scale, wait till after your dnp run is done is the best way to do it


How does taking T3 affect water retention?


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## Kian1980 (Dec 29, 2007)

Can somebody PM me a good and reliable dnp source? UK if poss


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## MunchieBites (Jan 14, 2013)

Big Man 123 said:


> You are losing 1 pound a day on 500 mg's a day? That DNP is seriously underdosed then, that's what I lost on 250 mg's a day with Yellow Magic, thanks for the warning as my beloved Yellow Magic went away and I have to look at another one.
> 
> I will do my research to confirm that everyone have this kind of results on DM's DNP so I never bother using it.


I agree, got to be under dosed. I'm on 125mg yellow magic and sweating my wotsits off. Would never cope with 500mg, going far too close to the LD50. What's your diet like and are you taking T3?


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## MunchieBites (Jan 14, 2013)

Kian1980 said:


> Can somebody PM me a good and reliable dnp source? UK if poss


that's against forum rules dude

or it use to be


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