# The famous PoWeR PCT Program by Dr. Michael Scally



## Paulo Souza

Extracted from William Llewelly's Anabolics 9th Edition with permission.

Notes, sources and authors information at the bottom of the page.

The PoWer PCT study ABSTRACT: http://www.aegis.com/conferences/Lipo/2002/81.html

A more detailed ABSTRACT in PDF: http://www.medibolics.com/ScallyVergelAstractHPGA.pdf

(HYPOTHALAMIC PITUITARY GONADAL AXIS NORMALIZATION PROTOCOL AFTER ANDROGEN TREATMENT)

*The PoWeR PCT Program *

The PCT program outlined below represents what I consider to be an ideal and effective post-cycle program. It was developed by the doctors at the Program for Wellness Restoration (PoWeR), who have a formidable history helping patients recover normal hormonal functioning following steroid therapy. One of the key doctors on this program, Dr. Michael Scally, claims to have successfully treated more than 100 cases of hypogonadism/hypogonadotrophic hypogonadism, and is very well known in the field of androgen replacement therapy. PoWeR published this program as part of a recent clinical study, which involved 19 healthy male subjects who were taking supraphysiological (highly suppressive) doses of testosterone cypionate and nandrolone decanoate for 12 weeks. Their HPGA Normalization Protocol focuses on the combined use of HCG, Nolvadex' and Clomid, and is perhaps the only clinically documented post-cycle therapy program to be found in the medical literature (it is amazing how little attention has been paid to hormone normalization in clinical medicine). The most notable variation from a classic PCT stack, such that I have( been a longtime supporter of, is the combined use of two anti-estrogens. In this case I cannot say that there is disadvantage to such use; perhaps it is indeed the better option.

Examining the program closely, we note that the teste are hit hard with HCG at the onset of therapy. Its intake however, is limited to only 16 days. The doctor, undoubtedly recognize that when HCG is taken for too long or at too high a dosage, it can desensitize the LH receptor. This would only further exacerbate the post cycle problem, not help it. Anti-estrogens are used during and after HCG, with a dosage of 10 mg of Nolvadex and 100 mg of Clomid per day rounding out this compliment of drugs. Clomid is used for a shorter period of time than Nolvadex, likely because of the desensitizing effect it too' can have (on the pituitary gland) with continued use. Among other things, these two anti-estrogens will continue to foster LH release as testosterone levels start to go back up, as well as combat any potential estrogenic side effects that may be caused by HCG's up-regulation and testicular aromatase activity. Although in the first couple of weeks the anti-estrogens probably do very Iittlle as they should be much more helpful towards the middle and end of the program. During this clinical investigation: normal hormonal function was restored in all subjects,I within 45 days of drug cessation. This is a definite success far more favorable than the protracted recovery window noted in studies without post-cycle therapy, such as the 250 mg/week testosterone enanthate investigation, highlighted in Figure I. For me, I believe such a detailed recovery program should follow any serious steroid cycle It is the best way to maintain your gains at their maximun and that is, after all, what we are after.

Figure 2:









Note 1:

According to Dr. Michael Scally, the protocol described in Llewelly's book has been updated. - But it has changed minimally, he said. - Now I extend the hCG duration by using 2,000 IU, now 10 shots total. The tamoxifen is 20 MG PO BID.

Note 2:

About Dr. Michael Scally

Dr. Scally's education includes a double degree major in Chemistry (1975) and Life Sciences (1975) from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (M.I.T.) Cambridge, MA. Following, from 1975-1980, in the M.I.T. Division of Brain Sciences & Neuroendocrinology Dr. Scally researched and published investigations on neurotransmitter relationships.1 Dr. Scally's research included involvement and participation in the earliest studies detailing the role of tryptophan, serotonin, and depression. During this time, he entered the prestigious Health Sciences & Technology Program, a collaboration of M.I.T. and Harvard Medical School. In June 1980, Dr. Scally was awarded by Harvard Medical School a Doctorate of Medicine, M.D. Continuing his education, Dr. Scally trained at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Southwestern Medical School. Scally completed the first year of postgraduate medical residency in general surgery followed by postgraduate medical residency in anesthesiology.

Consultations. Contact Dr. Scally at [email protected] or [email protected] Dr. Scally has personally cared for thousands of individuals using AAS, particularly for anabolic steroid-induced hypogonadism. DONATIONS ARE NEEDED AND APPRECIATED AT WWW.ASIH.NET.

Buy his book: http://www.amazon.com/Anabolic-Steroids-Question-Subject-Research/dp/096622311X/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1276978014&sr=8-3

Note 3:

About William Llewellyn

William Llewellyn is a world-renowned foremost authority on anabolic substances and its effects on muscular performance. An accomplished research scientist, author, publisher, inventor, columnist, and company CEO in the field of sports nutrition and anabolic substances, Llewellyn has been featured in ESPN Magazine, Washington Post, Fox News Channel, ESPN Television, NPR News, ESPN Radio and other national and regional TV / Radio news programs.

In addition to writing the Anabolics books, Llewellyn also publishes Body of Science Magazine, a quarterly publication dedicated to the "understanding of sports enhancement." He writes a monthly column for Muscular Development, and has written numerous articles for other bodybuilding publications including Ironman Magazine, Exercise for Men Only, and Natural Muscle.

During his fifteen years of anabolic research, Llewellyn has made several important scientific discoveries. His latest discovery of arachidonic acid has been patented for its anabolic properties and its "use as a method of increasing skeletal muscle mass."

Buy his book: http://www.amazon.com/William-Llewellys-Anabolics-9th-Edition/dp/0967930472/ref=ntt_at_ep_dpi_10

Note 4:

PoWeR : Program for Wellness Restoration website - http://www.powerusa.org


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## Lois_Lane

Hackski introduced this to this board well over a year ago.

It works very well!


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## Paulo Souza

Hi guys, this is my first contribution to UK Muscle.

The post contains the same information as in the Scott thread - http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/steroid-testosterone-information/13764-here-docs-protocol-hpta-recovery.html - posted some time ago.

But here in this topic, after some research, i decided to put all the sources, studies and other information behind the PCT suggested by Scott (hackskii).

Thanks guys,

Paulo.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

More info:



*HPGA Normalization Protocol After Androgen Treatment*

*
N Vergel, AL Hodge, MC Scally*

*
Program for Wellness Restoration, PoWeR*
​
*Objective Results Discussion*

To develop an approach to cycle androgens that would result in significant changes in body composition and accelerate the normalization of the hypothalamic pituitary gonadal axis (HPGA) after cessation of androgens.

*Methods*

An uncontrolled study of 19 HIV-negative eugonadal men, ages 23 - 57 years, administered testosterone cypionate and nandrolone decanoate for 12 weeks, and then were treated simultaneously with a combined regimen of human chorionic gonadotropin (hCG) (2500 IU/QODx16d), clomiphene citrate (50 mg PO BID x 30d) and tamoxifen (20 mg PO QD x 45d), to restore the HPGA.

*Results*

Mean FFM by DEXA increased from 64.1 to 69.8 kg (p<.001); percent body fat decreased from 23.6 to 20.9 (p<.01); strength increased significantly from 357.4 lb to 406.4 lb (p=.02). No significant changes in serum chemistries and liver function tests were found. HDL-C decreased from a mean value of 44.3 to 38.0 (p=.02). Mean values for luteinizing hormone (LH) and total testosterone (T) were 4.5 and 460, respectively prior to androgen treatment. At the conclusion of the 12-week treatment with androgens the mean LH <0.7 (p<.001) and total testosterone was 1568 (p<.001). The mean values after treatment with the combined regimen were LH=6.2 and testosterone=458.

*Discussion*

The use of androgens has been reported to improve lean body mass, strength, sexual function, and mood accompanied by side effects caused by continuous uninterrupted use of these compounds (polycythemia, testicular atrophy, hypertension, liver dysfunction [oral androgens] and alopecia.) Androgen-induced HPGA suppression causes a severe hypogonadal state in most patients that often require an extensive period of considerable duration for normalization. This prevents most if not all individuals from cycling off these medications due to the adverse impact of this state on their previously gained LBM and quality of life. The protocol of hCG-clomiphene-tamoxifen was successful in restoring the HPGA within 45 days after androgen cessation. Further controlled studies are needed to determine if these results can be duplicated in HIV positive subjects.

*PRACTICAL APPLICATION *

The esters used in the abstract were cypionate and deconate however the administration of the PCT medications were started the day after aas cessation. Essentially the aas esters were still active when PCT began. The first 16 days a large amount of HCG was used in order to increase the mass of the testes so that they could sustain output of testosterone sooner. The HCG was stopped about the time the esters cleared so that estrogenic activity from the HCG would be reduced. During those first 16 days 2 different SERM's were also employed (Clomid and Nolvadex) This protocol is contrary to what is typically recommended in many forums but regardless the protocol was effective in all 19 men. This is a 100% success rate! After the HCG was discontinued both SERM's were continued. The following is the exact protocol in laymen's terms.

*Day 1-16 : 2500iu HCG every other day.*

*
Day 1-30 : Nolva 20mg/day; Clomid 100mg/day (50mg was taken twice per day)*

*
Day 31-45 : Nolva 20mg/day*

*
*

I now strongly believe that an AI should be used as long as there is an aromatizing compound being administered. In this case Testosterone and HCG aromatize therefore using an AI until these meds clear is now what I am recommending. There is some evidence that adding Nolva to an AI does not increase the effectiveness of estro control therefore Nolva has no real advantage alongside an AI unless one is experiencing gyno. Additionally Nolva has been shown to reduce IGF-1 and GH levels. This is not a big deal on cycle as testosterone increases IGF-1 in a dose dependant relationship. However off cycle this is a problem. PCT is a fragile time and lower IGF-1 and GH levels is not desireable as I am sure you can appreciate. The last few days I have been relooking at AI's to find one that is specific to men that can be used on cycle and during PCT. It is my conclusion that Aromasin is the obvious choice.

Aromasin (Exemestane) is a Type-I aromatase inhibitor, or suicidal aromatase inhibitor. It's called this because it lowers estrogen production in the body by attaching to the aromatase enzyme, and permanently deactivating it. (1)

Personally, I find this to be a very interesting mechanism of action when compared to type-II aromatase inhibitors, which bind competitively to the aromatase enzyme, and eventually unbind, rendering it active again. In the case of Aromasin, this doesn't happen, and once it does its job on the enzyme, those particular enzymes will no longer function.

Because the enzyme is permanently deactivated there is no estrogen rebound with Aromasin. Estrogen rebound at this critical time during PCT is undesirable so using Arimidex would be inferior. Therefore I believe Aromasin is the AI of choice during PCT.

*Reference: *

1. A predictive model for exemestane pharmacokinetics/pharmacodynamics incorporating the effect of food and formulation.Br J Clin Pharmacol. 2005 Mar;59(3):355-64.

The following is a study done in men with Aromasin that shows significant effect on estrogen and testosterone;

Pharmacokinetics and Dose Finding of a Potent Aromatase Inhibitor, Aromasin (Exemestane), in Young Males

Suppression of estrogen, via estrogen receptor or aromatase blockade, is being investigated in the treatment of different conditions. Exemestane (Aromasin) is a potent and selective irreversible aromatase inhibitor. To characterize its suppression of estrogen and its pharmacokinetic (PK) properties in males, healthy eugonadal subjects (14-26 yr of age) were recruited. In a cross-over study, 12 were randomly assigned to 25 and 50 mg exemestane daily, orally, for 10 d with a 14-d washout period. Blood was withdrawn before and 24 h after the last dose of each treatment period. A PK study was performed (n = 10) using a 25-mg dose. Exemestane suppressed plasma estradiol comparably with either dose [25 mg, 38% (P 0.002); 50 mg, 32% (P 0.008)], with a reciprocal increase in testosterone concentrations (60% and 56%; P 0.003 for both). Plasma lipids and IGF-I concentrations were unaffected by treatment. The PK properties of the 25-mg dose showed the highest exemestane concentrations 1 h after administration, indicating rapid absorption. The terminal half-life was 8.9 h. Maximal estradiol suppression of 62 ± 14% was observed at 12 h. The drug was well tolerated. In conclusion, exemestane is a potent aromatase inhibitor in men and an alternative to the choice of available inhibitors. Long-term efficacy and safety will need further study.


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## big_jim_87

thats a heavy PCT i need some thing like that soon


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## Paulo Souza

Yeah... its the only PCT clinically documented and published, great stuff.


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## Rottee

I thought you dropped the hcg once you start you nolva and clomid not run them all at same time


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## Paulo Souza

*Ask Michael Scally*

*Question:*

What's the logic behind all the different timing and dosing of HCG ?? We hear taking it every day, every other day, every 3rd, 4th, or 5th day.

What about the dosing ? I hear to take it easy to prevent desensitizing the testes. With this you hear anywhere from 100 units to 250 units to play it safe. Others say anywhere from 500 to 2500 units at a time&#8230;Isn't that a bit much ?

What about the length of time? I hear two clinics suggest 10 days; others say 3-5 weeks. Where does all this come from and who's right?

*ANSWER:*

Almost everything you hear or read will be anecdotal and therefore subject to no verification. Experiences with hCG while on TRT are posted. The use of hCG for PCT is only partly related to its use on TRT.

hCG while on TRT is used for two reasons. One reason is cosmetic. While on TRT it is not unusual and more often expected to have testicular atrophy. This is variable from individual to individual. The other reason is to act as a stimulus so the testicles do not shut down and therefore will be easier to initiate independent function after AAS cessation.

Desensitization is a potential problem with hCG. I do not think you will experience it with doses of 500IU or less 3X/week. Studies have used this dose for considerably long periods. In my patients when hCG was used while on AAS the dose was 1000IU every 3 days with one month on hCG followed by one month off hCG.

hCG for PCT involves additional concepts. This is the timing of hCG in relation to other medications for return of HPTA functionality. Under normal conditions the HPTA is a tightly coupled dynamic feedback loop. It is this coupling that has to be achieved after AAS cessation to return to normal. The analogy I use is the starting of a car by pushing it from behind. Alone the care will not start but with pushing the clutch can be popped and the car started.

After AAS cessation the secretion of LH is nil. It will not be able to initiate T production until a certain stimulus LH level is reached. Studies have shown that the time for this to occur can be lengthy. Thus the idea is to 'push' the testicles with hCG and get them started. Once T production is initiated the dependent variable is LH. If the hCG is withdrawn without adequate LH to couple with the testicles return of HPTA functionality will fail.

The increased production of LH is achieved by a dual action of clomiphene citrate and tamoxifen. Clomiphene is a mixed agonist/antagonist (SERM) at the estradiol receptor. Clomiphene will increase the secretion of LH by action at the hypothalamo-pituitary area. Clomiphene will cause an increase in LH and secondarily increases in T and estradiol. Estradiol has a negative feedback influence on the HPTA. Estradiol is 200X the inhibitory effect of T per molar basis. Normal serum levels are the following:

Testosterone: 3-10 ng/ml (10-35 nM/L)

Estradiol: 15-65 pg/ml (55-240 pmol/L)

Tamoxifen will counteract the effect of the estradiol. Once the hCG is withdrawn the LH, initiated by clomiphene and tamoxifen, will couple with the testicles and take over production of T by the testicles. The levels of LH to maintain and couple with the testicles are maintained by clomiphene and tamoxifen. Clomiphene is continued for 15 days while Tamoxifen is continued for 30 days.

In healthy adult men, circulating levels of testosterone have a distinct pattern, with increasing levels during sleep toward a maximum around the time of awakening and a decrease during the day. In PCT hCG is administered every other day. I suggest the same time each injection in an attempt to simulate this rhythm. This is purely empirical but I recommend hCG at bedtime (2200). Clomiphene is taken in divided doses of 50mg 2X/day.

*QUESTION:* I just recently finished a 7 day treatment of Clomid at 100 mg a day. prescribed by my endocrinologist. What is the best case scenario of this protocol?

Can you tell me more about Clomid and how it works?

If the Clomid did raise my testosterone levels, then what is the doctor going to do next? I assume if it didn't raise my levels then he is going to put me on testosterone replacement therapy (TRT).

*ANSWER:* Clomiphene is classified as a selective-estrogen receptor-modulator (SERM).

Tamoxifen is classified as an estrogen receptor blocker.

Arimidex, Aromasin, Femara are aromatiziation enzyme inhibitors.

Clomiphene is classified as a selective-estrogen receptor-modulator (SERM) due to its ability to compete with estradiol for estrogen receptors at the level of the hypothalamus. Clomiphene blocks the normal negative feedback of circulating estradiol on the hypothalamus, preventing estrogen from lowering the output of gonadotropin releasing hormone (GnRH). During clomiphene therapy, the frequency and amplitude of GnRH pulses increase and stimulate the pituitary gland to release more FSH and LH.

In turn, FSH and LH stimulate the testicles to produce more testosterone. LH and FSH then apparently stimulate the testicles to produce testosterone and sperm. Sperm volume and density are increased; however, clomiphene may not increase sperm maturation or motility. Testosterone is converted to estradiol as well as dihydrotestosterone (DHT). The estrogenic effects of clomiphene are secondary to the primary effects on HPTA function. Clomiphene exhibits no androgenic, anti-androgenic, or progestational effects, nor does it affect pituitary-thyroid or pituitary-adrenal function. In some clinical situations clomiphene citrate will produce negative feedback inhibition on The HPTA. This can usually be determined by clinical signs and laboratory profile.

Secondary hypogonadism is more common than primary gonadal failure and is seen in chronic and acute illnesses. Although testosterone has a role in erections, its importance in erectile dysfunction (ED) has been controversial. Hypogonadism produced by functional suppression of pituitary gonadotropins has been shown to correct with clomiphene citrate in a % of patients, but with a modest effect on sexual function.

It does appear that many men may have functional suppression of the central component of their hypothalamic-pituitary-testicular axis resulting from a variety of acute and chronic medical conditions and multiple drug use. The same is true for various types of anxiety.

Endurance Athlete:

Patients with an intact hypothalamic-pituitary-gonadal axis are most likely to respond to clomiphene citrate. To assess the efficacy of estrogen antagonist therapy on the function of the hypothalamic-pituitary-testicular axis in a young male runner with significant morbidity attributable to idiopathic hypogonadotropic hypogonadism. Clomiphene citrate (CC) at doses up to 50 mg two times per day over a 5-month period. Barely detectable levels of LH and FSH associated with hypogonadal levels of T were restored to the normal range with CC therapy. The patient experienced improved erectile function, increased testicular size and sexual hair growth, and an improved sense of well being. Exercise-induced hypogonadotropic hypogonadism exists as a clinical entity among male endurance athletes, and CC may provide a safe and effective treatment option for males with debilitating hypogonadism related to endurance exercise.

Long Term AAS Use:

Tan, R.S. and D. Vasudevan, Use of clomiphene citrate to reverse premature andropause secondary to steroid abuse. Fertil Steril, 2003. 79(1): p. 203-5.

OBJECTIVE: To report a case of symptomatic hypogonadism induced by the abuse of multiple steroid preparations that was subsequently reversed by clomiphene.

DESIGN: Case report.

SETTING: University-affiliated andrology practice within family practice clinic.

PATIENT(S): A 30-year-old male.

INTERVENTION(S): Clomiphene citrate, 100-mg challenge for 5 days, followed by treatment at same dose for 2 months.

MAIN OUTCOME MEASURE(S): Clinical symptoms, androgen decline in aging male questionnaire, total T, FSH, LH.

RESULT(S): Reversal of symptoms, normalization of T levels with LH surge, restoration of pituitary-gonadal axis.

CONCLUSION(S): Clomiphene citrate is used typically in helping to restore fertility in females. This represents the first case report of the successful use of clomiphene to restore T levels and the pituitary-gonadal axis in a male patient. The axis was previously shut off with multiple anabolic steroid abuse.

Multiple Causes:

A total of 178 men with secondary hypogonadism and ED received clomiphene citrate for 4 months. Sexual function improved in 75%, with no change in 25%, while significant increases in luteinizing hormone and free testosterone occurred in all patients.

It was found clinically that if the primary cause of the problem is corrected, clomiphene can occasionally be tapered and stopped, and the testosterone level will remain normal (unpublished observations). In some patients the total treatment needs to be extended beyond 6 months. Quite frequently in men with ED and hypogonadism, correcting that the sexual problem may require additional methods of treatment. Nevertheless, correcting the testosterone deficit may have other beneficial effects. These may include increasing energy and well-being, as well as prevention of anemia or bone loss, depending on the severity of the hypogonadism. If patients cannot maintain their testosterone levels in the normal range after clomiphene is discontinued, permanent testosterone replacement with intramuscular injection, transdermal patches, or gels should be considered.

A minority, 39%, of the men will clinically respond to this treatment totally and this group will not have to consider artificial means of correcting their sexual dysfunction, or treatment of their comorbid medical or psychological factors. Decreased responses also occurred in men with diabetes, hypertension, coronary artery disease, and multiple medication use. Since these conditions are more prevalent with aging, chronic disease may be a more important determinant of sexual dysfunction. Men with anxiety-related disorders responded better to normalization of testosterone. Assessment of androgen status should be accomplished in all men with ED. For those with lower than normal age-matched levels of testosterone treatment directed at normalizing testosterone with clomiphene citrate is a viable alternative to giving androgen supplements.

Clomiphene citrate is generally well tolerated. Adverse reactions usually have been mild and transient and most have disappeared promptly after treatment has been discontinued. Visual Symptoms - Blurred vision, lights, floaters, waves, unspecified visual complaints, photophobia, diplopia, scotomata, phosphenes and headaches are those most common I have encountered. Reducing the dosage or discontinuing the medication resolves these side effects.

Clomiphene is administered orally and is well absorbed from the GI tract. Clomiphene is a combination of racemic isomers, enclomiphene and zuclomiphene, which may have different pharmacokinetic and pharmacodynamic parameters that have not been completely elucidated. Zuclomiphene is thought to be the more estrogenic isomer. The metabolic fate of clomiphene has not been completely established, but the drug appears to undergo hepatic metabolism. Both unchanged drug and its metabolites are excreted in the feces via the bile. Stereo-specific enterohepatic recycling or sequestering seems to occur also, with the zuclomiphene isomer accumulating over several cycles of treatment. However, even with continued cycles of use, combined maximum plasma levels of enclomiphene and zuclomiphene do not appear to exceed 100 mmol/L. The half-life of clomiphene is reported to be 5 days, but studies with radiolabeled doses have demonstrated that the drug may be found in the feces for up to 6 weeks.

HCG timing and dosing for shut down recovery....logic behind it all ??

*QUESTION:* What's the logic behind all the different timing and dosing of HCG ?? We hear taking it every day, every other day, every 3rd, 4th, or 5th day. What's the logic or science behind all the different timings? Shouldn't HCG timing mimic the bodies natural pulsing of LH? What is that exactly? Where do all you guys get the timing from? Articles, studies, colleagues?

What about the dosing ? I hear to take it easy to prevent desensitizing the testes. With this you hear anywhere from 100 units to 250 units to play it safe. Others say anywhere from 500 to 2500 units at a time...Isn't that a bit much ?

What about the length of time? I hear two clinics suggest 10 days; others say 3-5 weeks. Where does all this come from and who's right? Help me! Does anyone have any hard info here ?

*ANSWER:* Almost everything you hear or read will be anecdotal and therefore subject to no verification. Experiences with hCG while on TRT are posted. The use of hCG for PCT is only partly related to its use on TRT.

hCG while on TRT is used for two reasons. One reason is cosmetic. While on TRT it is not unusual and more often expected to have testicular atrophy. This is variable from individual to individual. The other reason is to act as a stimulus so the testicles do not shut down and therefore will be easier to initiate independent function after AAS cessation.

Desensitization is a potential problem with hCG. I do not think you will experience it with doses of 500IU or less 3X/week. Studies have used this dose for considerably long periods. In my patients when hCG was used while on AAS the dose was 1000IU every 3 days with one month on hCG followed by one month off hCG.

hCG for PCT involves additional concepts. This is the timing of hCG in relation to other medications for return of HPTA functionality. Under normal conditions the HPTA is a tightly coupled dynamic feedback loop. It is this coupling that has to be achieved after AAS cessation to return to normal. The analogy I use is the starting of a car by pushing it from behind. Alone the care will not start but with pushing the clutch can be popped and the car started.

After AAS cessation the secretion of LH is nil. It will not be able to initiate T production until a certain stimulus LH level is reached. Studies have shown that the time for this to occur can be lengthy. Thus the idea is to 'push' the testicles with hCG and get them started. Once T production is initiated the dependent variable is LH. If the hCG is withdrawn without adequate LH to couple with the testicles return of HPTA functionality will fail.

The increased production of LH is achieved by a dual action of clomiphene citrate and tamoxifen. Clomiphene is a mixed agonist/antagonist (SERM) at the estradiol receptor. Clomiphene will increase the secretion of LH by action at the hypothalamo-pituitary area. Clomiphene will cause an increase in LH and secondarily increases in T and estradiol. Estradiol has a negative feedback influence on the HPTA. Estradiol is 200X the inhibitory effect of T per molar basis. Normal serum levels are the following:

Testosterone: 3-10 ng/ml (10-35 nM/L)

Estradiol: 15-65 pg/ml (55-240 pmol/L)

Tamoxifen will counteract the effect of the estradiol. Once the hCG is withdrawn the LH, initiated by clomiphene and tamoxifen, will couple with the testicles and take over production of T by the testicles. The levels of LH to maintain and couple with the testicles are maintained by clomiphene and tamoxifen. Clomiphene is continued for 15 days while Tamoxifen is continued for 30 days.

In healthy adult men, circulating levels of testosterone have a distinct pattern, with increasing levels during sleep toward a maximum around the time of awakening and a decrease during the day. In PCT hCG is administered every other day. I suggest the same time each injection in an attempt to simulate this rhythm. This is purely empirical but I recommend hCG at bedtime (2200). Clomiphene is taken in divided doses of 50mg 2X/day.

Health Consequences of Long-Term TRT

*QUESTION:* Dr. Scally,

With all the medical information on the benefits of healthy levels of testosterone (usually patients on testosterone), if a person can't restore their natural production thru proper therapy or doesn't want to try, is there really any harm on being on reasonable amounts of trt ongoing?

I'm talking mid fifties with no desire to procreate anymore or having to have daily sex. I don't consider shrunken testes, receding hairline, an occasional pimple to be problems. I'm asking about serious health concerns being caused by reasonable dose lifetime trt keeping testosterone in a normal to high normal range. I'm glad your on the forum-your reputation in this area is second to none. Thanks, Greg

*ANSWER:* The question opens up a 'bag of worms' regarding a patient's wishes. I understand your agreeing to certain side effects, etc. to be on TRT. But if there is a cause for the hypogonadism it first needs to be determined, if possible. When you state, "... a person can't restore their natural production thru proper therapy or doesn't want to try ..." I have to assume that the patient has no prior significant medical history - diagnosis PADAM or Andropause.

"TRT in Brief"

Frank hypogonadism is a clinical condition in which low levels of serum testosterone are found in association with specific signs and symptoms, including diminished libido and sense of vitality, erectile dysfunction, reduced muscle mass and bone density, depression, and anemia. It is associated with specific morbidity and mortality risks.

When relative hypogonadism occurs in an older man, the condition is often called andropause, or androgen deficiency of the aging male. The difference is whether or not a serum T level is compared to the same age or that of a younger age. BTW the same approach is taken for BMD. There we use comparison to a younger population. At this time there are no long term studies on the morbidity and mortality for TRT. The most controversial topic in the ongoing discussion of TRT is the issue of risk.

Testosterone supplementation in the United States has increased more than 500 percent in prescription sales of testosterone products since 1993. IMS Health (www.imshealth.com/ims/portal), which tracks prescription drug sales, has said the market for testosterone products in general jumped from $49 million in 1997 to $200+/2000, 250+ million/2001, and 400+/2002 The first testosterone gel on the market, Androgel, launched by the Belgian pharmaceutical company Solvay S.A. in 2000, posted about $196 million in U.S. sales last year, a 52 percent jump from 2001.

Coronary Artery Disease - Data supporting a causal relation between higher testosterone levels and heart disease is sp****. Several studies suggest that higher testosterone levels may actually have a favorable effect on the risk of cardiovascular disease. Studies of TRT have not demonstrated an increased incidence of cardiovascular disease or events such as myocardial infarction, stroke, or angina.

Lipid Profile - Available data regarding the relation of TRT to lipid profiles are inconsistent. Supraphysiologic doses of androgens, particularly oral nonaromatizable androgenic steroids lower high-density lipoprotein (HDL) levels. Numerous controlled studies using physiologic replacement doses of testosterone have shown no change, or minimal reduction, in HDL, often with a reduction in total cholesterol.

The limited information available suggest a neutral effect of TRT within the physiologic range is not associated with worsening of the lipid profile

Polycythemia - Men with hypogonadism have lower hemoglobin levels than age-matched controls, and TRT can restore their hemoglobin levels to the normal range. Injections appear to be associated with a greater risk of erythrocytosis than topical preparations. the H/H/ level should be monitored in men receiving TRT. Treatment may include the withholding of testosterone, therapeutic phlebotomy, or blood donation, may be instituted if erythrocytosis develops.

Benign Prostatic Hyperplasia - The development of BPH requires the presence of androgens and that the marked reduction in serum testosterone caused by chemical or surgical castration causes reduced prostate volume. Studies have failed to demonstrate exacerbation of voiding symptoms attributable to BPH during testosterone supplementation.

Prostate volume, as determined by ultrasonography, does increase significantly during testosterone-replacement therapy. Urine flow rates, postvoiding residual urine volumes, and prostate voiding symptoms did not change significantly in these studies. This is explained by the poor correlation between prostate volume and urinary symptoms. Individual men with hypogonadism may occasionally have increased voiding symptoms with TRT.

Prostate Cancer - There is no scientific peer-reviewed literature that definitely establishes a link between the administration of testosterone and the increasing the risk or development of prostate cancer. There is no compelling evidence that testosterone has a causative role in prostate cancer or to suggest men with higher testosterone levels are at greater risk of prostate cancer or that treating hypogonadism with exogenous androgens increases this risk. Just remember the incidence of prostate cancer rises with aging which is associated with declining testosterone levels. Prostate cancer becomes more prevalent exactly at the time of a man's life when testosterone levels decline.

Over 200,000 men are given a diagnosis of prostate cancer each year and most are first detected by a rise in the PSA level unrelated to testosterone therapy.

Interestingly the underlying prevalence of occult prostate cancer in men with low testosterone levels appears to be substantial. A history of prostate cancer has been considered an absolute contraindication to testosterone-replacement therapy which is now under active debate for men who are deemed cured.

PSA - The 2002 U.S. Preventative Services Task Force recommendations on the screening for prostatic cancer concludes that the evidence is insufficient to recommend for or against routine screening for prostate cancer using prostate-specific androgens (PSA) testing or digital rectal examination (DRE), "Screening is associated with important harms including frequent false-positive results and unnecessary anxiety, biopsies, and potential complications of treatment of some cases of cancer that have never affected a patient's health. The USPSTF concludes that evidence is insufficient to determine whether the benefits outweigh the harms for a screened population."

PSA values used to trigger prostate biopsy include an increase of 1.5 ng per milliliter within two years or a total increase of 2.0 ng per milliliter over any period. These recommendations have been based on observational population studies in untreated men.

Hepatic Effects - The use of oral preparations of testosterone has been reported to lead to hepatotoxic effects and neoplasia, including benign and malignant tumors. Intramuscular injections and transdermal preparations do not appear to be associated with hepatic dysfunction. Routine monitoring with liver-function tests is probably unnecessary but caution usually is better.

Sleep Apnea - Testosterone-replacement therapy has been associated with exacerbation of sleep apnea or with the development of sleep apnea.

Gynecomastia - A small number of men receiving testosterone-replacement therapy report breast tenderness and swelling.

Anabolic Steroid Induced Hypogonadism (ASIH) - Probably the most bothersome since this may cause problems in discontinuing TRT. Testicular size and consistency often diminish, fertility will be greatly decreased because of down-regulation of gonadotropins.

Skin - Transdermal TRT is associated with a variety of skin reactions, mainly erythema or pruritus, which are more common with patches than with gel preparations. Intramuscular injections of testosterone can cause local pain, soreness, bruising, erythema, swelling, nodules, or furuncles. Acne, oily skin, increased body hair, and flushing have also been observed but are generally considered only a minor inconvenience. There isn't any data indicating acceleration of male-pattern baldness with TRT but seems reasonable it might.

Fluid retention is uncommon and generally mild, but testosterone-replacement therapy should be used cautiously in men with congestive heart failure or renal insufficiency.

Hypertension has rarely been reported.

There is no universal agreement regarding target levels of replacement therapy, although many experienced clinicians aim for the mid- to upper-normal range in order to optimize the response to treatment. Treatment to raise levels above the physiologic range is discouraged, although it should be recognized that peak serum testosterone levels generally do rise transiently above the upper limit of normal with standard injection-therapy dosages.

If the patient reports an adequate clinical response to testosterone supplementation, there is no need for dosage adjustment, even if levels are in the low-normal range. If the clinical response is suboptimal and testosterone levels are no higher than the low-normal range, the testosterone dosage should be increased. If the maximal recommended dose of transdermal therapy has been prescribed without the achievement of adequate serum testosterone levels, consideration should be given to changing to intramuscular-injection therapy. For men receiving injection therapy, clinicians must interpret the results of blood tests on the basis of the interval since the most recent injection, recognizing that peak serum levels are obtained 2 to 5 days after injection and that the levels often return to base line by 10 to 14 days after injection. If the hematocrit rises above the reference range, consideration should be given to temporarily withholding testosterone-replacement therapy, reducing the dosage, or performing phlebotomy. Subsequent monitoring visits are performed at three-to-six-month intervals for the first year and yearly thereafter. At each visit there should be an assessment of the symptomatic response to treatment.

Why Use Both Clomid and Nolvadex Together?

*QUESTION:* I have read that Clomid and Novadex are very similar products. Is this true? If so why would you need to take both?

*ANSWER:* The administration of antiestrogens is a common treatment because anti estrogens interfere with the normal negative feedback of sex steroids at hypothalamic and pituitary levels in order to increase endogenous gonadotropin-releasing hormone secretion from the hypothalamus and FSH and LH secretion directly from the pituitary. In turn, FSH and LH stimulate Leydig cells in the testes, and this has been claimed to lead to increased local testosterone production, thereby boosting spermatogenesis with a possible improvement in fertility. There may also be a direct effect of antiestrogens on testicular spermatogenesis or steroidogenesis.

Clomiphene is a synthetic derivative an estrogen. Clomid is a mixed agonist/antagonist for the estradiol receptor. Tamoxifen is a pure estradiol receptor antagonist. Clomid acts as an estrogen, rather than an antiestrogen, by sensitizing pituitary cells to the action of GnRH. Although tamoxifen is almost as effective as Clomid in binding to pituitary estrogen receptors, tamoxifen has little or no estrogenic activity in terms of its ability to enhance the GnRH-stimulated release of LH. The estrogenic action of Clomid at the pituitary represents a unique feature of this compound and that tamoxifen may be devoid of estrogenic activity at the pituitary level.

Perusal of the literature thus indicates that clomiphene acts in several ways in the human male; (a) due to its similarity of structure to stilbesterol it binds with receptor sites in the hypothalamus and pituitary, ( B) It stimulates gonadotrophin secretion by acting on the hypothalamo-hypophyseal system, © the inhibitory effects of high levels of circulating estrogens (produced under the influence of clomiphene) on hypothalamo-hypophyseal axis are possibly prevented by its potent antiestrogenic behaviour. The result of these varied effects of clomiphene is an overall increase in gonadotrophin and estrogen secretion and accounts for their increase under clinical conditions.

In one study the administration of tamoxifen, 20 mg/day for 10 days, to normal males produced a moderate increase in luteinizing hormone (LH), follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH), testosterone, and estradiol levels, comparable to the effect of 150 mg of clomiphene citrate (Clomid). Treatment of patients with "idiopathic" oligospermia for 6 to 9 months resulted in a significant increase in gonadotropin, testosterone, and estradiol levels.

Cochran database summary showed ten studies involving 738 men were included. Five of the trials did not specify method of randomization. Antiestrogens had a positive effect on endocrinal outcomes, such as serum testosterone levels. Antiestrogens appear to have a beneficial effect on endocrinal outcomes, but there is not enough evidence to evaluate the use of antiestrogens for increasing the fertility of males with idiopathic oligo-asthenospermia.

In the over one-thousand patients I have treated for HPTA normalization after AAS cessation i have used the combination of clomiphene citrate and tamoxifen. I have used clomiphene citrate alone in many cases. I added tamoxifen to the protocol to see if I could get a better clinical response. This seemed to be the case although I have not had the opportunity to evaluate the data. When both compounds are used the clomiphene citrate is discontinued first and the tamoxifen is continued for 2 more weeks. as I stated in the post on hCG injections it is imperative to be tested while on the medications. thus one would be tested ~3-5 days before the tamoxifen expires. In the 1st stage described in the hCG post one tests for testosterone only. the serum T level determines whether or not the hCG is halted. In the typical situation the hCG is stopped and the CC & tamoxifen continued. the lab tests at the end of the oral meds is LH & T.

Source: http://www.mesomorphosis.com/


----------



## hackskii

Bumping this to read later:

Testosterone supplementation in the United States has increased more than 500 percent in prescription sales of testosterone products since 1993. IMS Health (www.imshealth.com/ims/portal), which tracks prescription drug sales, has said the market for testosterone products in general jumped from $49 million in 1997 to $200+/2000, 250+ million/2001, and 400+/2002 The first testosterone gel on the market, Androgel, launched by the Belgian pharmaceutical company Solvay S.A. in 2000, posted about $196 million in U.S. sales last year, a 52 percent jump from 2001.

Coronary Artery Disease - Data supporting a causal relation between higher testosterone levels and heart disease is sp****. Several studies suggest that higher testosterone levels may actually have a favorable effect on the risk of cardiovascular disease. Studies of TRT have not demonstrated an increased incidence of cardiovascular disease or events such as myocardial infarction, stroke, or angina.

Lipid Profile - Available data regarding the relation of TRT to lipid profiles are inconsistent. Supraphysiologic doses of androgens, particularly oral nonaromatizable androgenic steroids lower high-density lipoprotein (HDL) levels. Numerous controlled studies using physiologic replacement doses of testosterone have shown no change, or minimal reduction, in HDL, often with a reduction in total cholesterol.

The limited information available suggest a neutral effect of TRT within the physiologic range is not associated with worsening of the lipid profile

Polycythemia - Men with hypogonadism have lower hemoglobin levels than age-matched controls, and TRT can restore their hemoglobin levels to the normal range. Injections appear to be associated with a greater risk of erythrocytosis than topical preparations. the H/H/ level should be monitored in men receiving TRT. Treatment may include the withholding of testosterone, therapeutic phlebotomy, or blood donation, may be instituted if erythrocytosis develops.

Benign Prostatic Hyperplasia - The development of BPH requires the presence of androgens and that the marked reduction in serum testosterone caused by chemical or surgical castration causes reduced prostate volume. Studies have failed to demonstrate exacerbation of voiding symptoms attributable to BPH during testosterone supplementation.

Prostate volume, as determined by ultrasonography, does increase significantly during testosterone-replacement therapy. Urine flow rates, postvoiding residual urine volumes, and prostate voiding symptoms did not change significantly in these studies. This is explained by the poor correlation between prostate volume and urinary symptoms. Individual men with hypogonadism may occasionally have increased voiding symptoms with TRT.

Prostate Cancer - There is no scientific peer-reviewed literature that definitely establishes a link between the administration of testosterone and the increasing the risk or development of prostate cancer. There is no compelling evidence that testosterone has a causative role in prostate cancer or to suggest men with higher testosterone levels are at greater risk of prostate cancer or that treating hypogonadism with exogenous androgens increases this risk. Just remember the incidence of prostate cancer rises with aging which is associated with declining testosterone levels. Prostate cancer becomes more prevalent exactly at the time of a man's life when testosterone levels decline.

Over 200,000 men are given a diagnosis of prostate cancer each year and most are first detected by a rise in the PSA level unrelated to testosterone therapy.

Interestingly the underlying prevalence of occult prostate cancer in men with low testosterone levels appears to be substantial. A history of prostate cancer has been considered an absolute contraindication to testosterone-replacement therapy which is now under active debate for men who are deemed cured.

PSA - The 2002 U.S. Preventative Services Task Force recommendations on the screening for prostatic cancer concludes that the evidence is insufficient to recommend for or against routine screening for prostate cancer using prostate-specific androgens (PSA) testing or digital rectal examination (DRE), "Screening is associated with important harms including frequent false-positive results and unnecessary anxiety, biopsies, and potential complications of treatment of some cases of cancer that have never affected a patient's health. The USPSTF concludes that evidence is insufficient to determine whether the benefits outweigh the harms for a screened population."

PSA values used to trigger prostate biopsy include an increase of 1.5 ng per milliliter within two years or a total increase of 2.0 ng per milliliter over any period. These recommendations have been based on observational population studies in untreated men.

Hepatic Effects - The use of oral preparations of testosterone has been reported to lead to hepatotoxic effects and neoplasia, including benign and malignant tumors. Intramuscular injections and transdermal preparations do not appear to be associated with hepatic dysfunction. Routine monitoring with liver-function tests is probably unnecessary but caution usually is better.

Sleep Apnea - Testosterone-replacement therapy has been associated with exacerbation of sleep apnea or with the development of sleep apnea.

Gynecomastia - A small number of men receiving testosterone-replacement therapy report breast tenderness and swelling.

Anabolic Steroid Induced Hypogonadism (ASIH) - Probably the most bothersome since this may cause problems in discontinuing TRT. Testicular size and consistency often diminish, fertility will be greatly decreased because of down-regulation of gonadotropins.

Skin - Transdermal TRT is associated with a variety of skin reactions, mainly erythema or pruritus, which are more common with patches than with gel preparations. Intramuscular injections of testosterone can cause local pain, soreness, bruising, erythema, swelling, nodules, or furuncles. Acne, oily skin, increased body hair, and flushing have also been observed but are generally considered only a minor inconvenience. There isn't any data indicating acceleration of male-pattern baldness with TRT but seems reasonable it might.

Fluid retention is uncommon and generally mild, but testosterone-replacement therapy should be used cautiously in men with congestive heart failure or renal insufficiency.

Hypertension has rarely been reported.

There is no universal agreement regarding target levels of replacement therapy, although many experienced clinicians aim for the mid- to upper-normal range in order to optimize the response to treatment. Treatment to raise levels above the physiologic range is discouraged, although it should be recognized that peak serum testosterone levels generally do rise transiently above the upper limit of normal with standard injection-therapy dosages.

If the patient reports an adequate clinical response to testosterone supplementation, there is no need for dosage adjustment, even if levels are in the low-normal range. If the clinical response is suboptimal and testosterone levels are no higher than the low-normal range, the testosterone dosage should be increased. If the maximal recommended dose of transdermal therapy has been prescribed without the achievement of adequate serum testosterone levels, consideration should be given to changing to intramuscular-injection therapy. For men receiving injection therapy, clinicians must interpret the results of blood tests on the basis of the interval since the most recent injection, recognizing that peak serum levels are obtained 2 to 5 days after injection and that the levels often return to base line by 10 to 14 days after injection. If the hematocrit rises above the reference range, consideration should be given to temporarily withholding testosterone-replacement therapy, reducing the dosage, or performing phlebotomy. Subsequent monitoring visits are performed at three-to-six-month intervals for the first year and yearly thereafter. At each visit there should be an assessment of the symptomatic response to treatment.

Why Use Both Clomid and Nolvadex Together?

QUESTION: I have read that Clomid and Novadex are very similar products. Is this true? If so why would you need to take both?

ANSWER: The administration of antiestrogens is a common treatment because anti estrogens interfere with the normal negative feedback of sex steroids at hypothalamic and pituitary levels in order to increase endogenous gonadotropin-releasing hormone secretion from the hypothalamus and FSH and LH secretion directly from the pituitary. In turn, FSH and LH stimulate Leydig cells in the testes, and this has been claimed to lead to increased local testosterone production, thereby boosting spermatogenesis with a possible improvement in fertility. There may also be a direct effect of antiestrogens on testicular spermatogenesis or steroidogenesis.

Clomiphene is a synthetic derivative an estrogen. Clomid is a mixed agonist/antagonist for the estradiol receptor. Tamoxifen is a pure estradiol receptor antagonist. Clomid acts as an estrogen, rather than an antiestrogen, by sensitizing pituitary cells to the action of GnRH. Although tamoxifen is almost as effective as Clomid in binding to pituitary estrogen receptors, tamoxifen has little or no estrogenic activity in terms of its ability to enhance the GnRH-stimulated release of LH. The estrogenic action of Clomid at the pituitary represents a unique feature of this compound and that tamoxifen may be devoid of estrogenic activity at the pituitary level.

Perusal of the literature thus indicates that clomiphene acts in several ways in the human male; (a) due to its similarity of structure to stilbesterol it binds with receptor sites in the hypothalamus and pituitary, ( B) It stimulates gonadotrophin secretion by acting on the hypothalamo-hypophyseal system, © the inhibitory effects of high levels of circulating estrogens (produced under the influence of clomiphene) on hypothalamo-hypophyseal axis are possibly prevented by its potent antiestrogenic behaviour. The result of these varied effects of clomiphene is an overall increase in gonadotrophin and estrogen secretion and accounts for their increase under clinical conditions.

In one study the administration of tamoxifen, 20 mg/day for 10 days, to normal males produced a moderate increase in luteinizing hormone (LH), follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH), testosterone, and estradiol levels, comparable to the effect of 150 mg of clomiphene citrate (Clomid). Treatment of patients with "idiopathic" oligospermia for 6 to 9 months resulted in a significant increase in gonadotropin, testosterone, and estradiol levels.

Cochran database summary showed ten studies involving 738 men were included. Five of the trials did not specify method of randomization. Antiestrogens had a positive effect on endocrinal outcomes, such as serum testosterone levels. Antiestrogens appear to have a beneficial effect on endocrinal outcomes, but there is not enough evidence to evaluate the use of antiestrogens for increasing the fertility of males with idiopathic oligo-asthenospermia.

In the over one-thousand patients I have treated for HPTA normalization after AAS cessation i have used the combination of clomiphene citrate and tamoxifen. I have used clomiphene citrate alone in many cases. I added tamoxifen to the protocol to see if I could get a better clinical response. This seemed to be the case although I have not had the opportunity to evaluate the data. When both compounds are used the clomiphene citrate is discontinued first and the tamoxifen is continued for 2 more weeks. as I stated in the post on hCG injections it is imperative to be tested while on the medications. thus one would be tested ~3-5 days before the tamoxifen expires. In the 1st stage described in the hCG post one tests for testosterone only. the serum T level determines whether or not the hCG is halted. In the typical situation the hCG is stopped and the CC & tamoxifen continued. the lab tests at the end of the oral meds is LH & T.


----------



## hackskii

Lois_Lane said:


> Hackski introduced this to this board well over a year ago.
> 
> It works very well!


More like 6 years ago:lol:


----------



## benki11

And some people on this board including mods saying it is outdated pct protocol ?


----------



## gaz_0001

There is actually a new PoWeR PCT.

http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/steroid-testosterone-information/195801-new-power-pct-vs-old-power-pct.html

My PCT is similar to that as is, but i gave the New PoWeR PCT to friend who used it earlier this year. Said it was highly rated and would definately use again.


----------



## Zorrin

I didn't want to chime in here before reverend hackskii.

I'm starting to think that PCT science isn't really a science, its a pseudoscience at best - still in its infancy. Every now and again, some study is published which overlaps PCT by accident, and people draw conclusions from it. People like Llewellin take fixed stances, sell their books and products, and make their money. Right or wrong - we pay with our testicles.

I like that Hackskii manages to simplify and rationalise the science, and changes his mind from time to time, while Llewellin et al try and make it sound more scienc-y - which it most definitely isn't.

Nowadays, hip hop, rap music is like a science, a billion dollar industry - but it used to be amateurish, like our knowledge of how to get our bodies producing testosterone. For me, Hackskii is the Grandmaster Flash of PCT.

In the same way that there is a limit to how fast our muscles can grow, there must be a limit to how fast our leydig cells can regenerate from atrophy. I don't think they will recover fully in 10 days, no matter how loud you shout at them with HCG. I'm minded to talk to my balls in a normal speaking voice (1000iu of HCG a week) for 5 weeks (because HCG typically comes in 5000iu amps) while I'm still using steroids. Why regrow them after you've stopped?

Even better, don't let them shrink in the first place.

It looks like aromasin isn't as strong an AI as I was lead to believe - I've only been using 10mg a day.

In my next PCT, I'm going to be using HCG (1000iu / week) and aromasin (20mg / day) for the last 5 weeks of my cycle, dropping the test prop for the last week and replacing it with 100mg of clomid a day. I don't see any reason to wait until PCT before starting the standard clomid / nolva protocol. They're cheap meds, compatible with aromasin, so why not start them a week or two early, so when your body is ready for them, they are in place?

I've read that proviron is barely suppressive of the HPTA at 50mg a day, and I'm wondering if 50mg of the similar masteron propionate every second day wouldn't be as effective (ie 25mg of mast prop a day)? Its a strong androgen which protects muscle mass well, binds SHBG, and has a slight AI effect.

Its like an anabolic proviron, and works at much lower doses than people generally use. Its cheap, too.

These are just ideas I want to run up the flagpole to see if they fly - I'll admit that I don't know what I'm talking about with PCT, but who does? Would half a ml of masteron prop eod be suppressive, and hinder recovery? I'm fairly sure it would preserve existing muscle mass in the total absence of testosterone.

You read about people "bridging" with a dbol tablet in the morning, but using something estrogenic seems stupid to me. The best bridging compound, rational thinking would suggest, would be an anabolic proviron (masteron), with aromasin to minimise estrogen, and clomid to hide the whole schebang from your HPTA. Get your balls back using HCG first, then signal them second, and start it all a couple of weeks before you have totally run out of artificial androgens.

At no point should you have the hormonal profile of a 100 year-old man if you want to keep the muscle you've earned (well, paid for fair and square).


----------



## gaz_0001

Zorrin said:


> I'm starting to think that PCT science isn't really a science, its a pseudoscience at best - still in its infancy.


Completely agree with this comment.

Ive tried several things that work well for other people and the really dont do anything at all for me.

For example, HcG use has had me confused for a while. I tried to keep them from shrinking whilst on cycle...with advice from others i tried 500iu 1xEW, 500iu 2xEW, 1000iu 1xEW, 500iu E5D etc etc. None done anything for me.

Around November this year, i done 5000iu over the period of 4 days in 2x2500iu jabs. Within 5 days my balls were back and i felt great.

So last week, i thought, ill just do 2500iu and that should be enough....wrong...has not done anything at all....so for me personally i actually need in excess of 1000iu EW throughout cycle (Figure unknown) and for a blast its >2500iu <=5000iu


----------



## benki11

Zorrin said:


> I didn't want to chime in here before reverend hackskii.
> 
> I'm starting to think that PCT science isn't really a science, its a pseudoscience at best - still in its infancy. Every now and again, some study is published which overlaps PCT by accident, and people draw conclusions from it. People like Llewellin take fixed stances, sell their books and products, and make their money. Right or wrong - we pay with our testicles.
> 
> I like that Hackskii manages to simplify and rationalise the science, and changes his mind from time to time, while Llewellin et al try and make it sound more scienc-y - which it most definitely isn't.
> 
> Nowadays, hip hop, rap music is like a science, a billion dollar industry - but it used to be amateurish, like our knowledge of how to get our bodies producing testosterone. For me, Hackskii is the Grandmaster Flash of PCT.
> 
> In the same way that there is a limit to how fast our muscles can grow, there must be a limit to how fast our leydig cells can regenerate from atrophy. I don't think they will recover fully in 10 days, no matter how loud you shout at them with HCG. I'm minded to talk to my balls in a normal speaking voice (1000iu of HCG a week) for 5 weeks (because HCG typically comes in 5000iu amps) while I'm still using steroids. Why regrow them after you've stopped?
> 
> Even better, don't let them shrink in the first place.
> 
> It looks like aromasin isn't as strong an AI as I was lead to believe - I've only been using 10mg a day.
> 
> In my next PCT, I'm going to be using HCG (1000iu / week) and aromasin (20mg / day) for the last 5 weeks of my cycle, dropping the test prop for the last week and replacing it with 100mg of clomid a day. I don't see any reason to wait until PCT before starting the standard clomid / nolva protocol. They're cheap meds, compatible with aromasin, so why not start them a week or two early, so when your body is ready for them, they are in place?
> 
> I've read that proviron is barely suppressive of the HPTA at 50mg a day, and I'm wondering if 50mg of the similar masteron propionate every second day wouldn't be as effective (ie 25mg of mast prop a day)? Its a strong androgen which protects muscle mass well, binds SHBG, and has a slight AI effect.
> 
> Its like an anabolic proviron, and works at much lower doses than people generally use. Its cheap, too.
> 
> These are just ideas I want to run up the flagpole to see if they fly - I'll admit that I don't know what I'm talking about with PCT, but who does? Would half a ml of masteron prop eod be suppressive, and hinder recovery? I'm fairly sure it would preserve existing muscle mass in the total absence of testosterone.
> 
> You read about people "bridging" with a dbol tablet in the morning, but using something estrogenic seems stupid to me. The best bridging compound, rational thinking would suggest, would be an anabolic proviron (masteron), with aromasin to minimise estrogen, and clomid to hide the whole schebang from your HPTA. Get your balls back using HCG first, then signal them second, and start it all a couple of weeks before you have totally run out of artificial androgens.
> 
> At no point should you have the hormonal profile of a 100 year-old man if you want to keep the muscle you've earned (well, paid for fair and square).


I think all of you on TRT don't respect PCT or saying it is t working because maybe complexes Cause other people are recovering,seems all of lads who cycle say pct works ! So let say Mars don believe in PCT But ,Hacskii does


----------



## hackskii

Ok, for the record the number one pm's and email I get are for recovery, I get them every single day, some time several.

Only one man has not recovered and even him, he did not follow directions that well.

Ok, just some thoughts here.

Why use an AI when post cycle testosterone is low, aromataze activity will be low, and thus estrogen low?

Does it make sense to anyone to crush estrogen when it is needed for libido, bone density, lipid profiles, and mental health, not to mention cause stiff joints?

Ok, does the use of an AI work as well as a SERM?

no

Does lets say nolva work positively on lipid profiles when they already are compromised post cycle?

yes

I agree that testicular function is the single biggest part of the equation for recovery period.

Keeping the testicles alive during cycle is paramount to recovery.

If it has not been done then something would then need to be done.

HCG has a fantastic track record, I wont go into details or debates on if it works, studies suggest it does, hell they give them to boys that have not had their nuts drop, endo doctors use it, so nuf said.

If you don't like it, don't use it, take as long as you want to recover, no sweat off my balls.

Same with clomid, they do use it in men for fertility, some TRT doctors use it as well, so, again, not doing to defend this one as I have more studies that anyone and will blast them all here but wont waste my time.

If you don't think it works, fine, don't use it.

We all have our opinions, some things are just common sense.

Just ask some guys that have used the protocol, I have and it works great.


----------



## BLUEV

Hey Hax!

I am trying to find a good protocol for PCT. I have read a lot and your name keeps popping up, but I can't seem to message you. I am trying to get help finding a good PCT cycle. I have read soooo much on doctors notes not to do something and others, to do something... I assume Nolva and clomids are the main ones to use... I read to use HCG and read never to use HCG coming off a cycle..

Please help

Message me if you have time. 

thanks

BV


----------



## stuey99

benki11 said:


> And some people on this board including mods saying it is outdated pct protocol ?


Yeah, I've seen people saying this mate. Is it outdated? Are there better ways to do it? Well, to be honest I have no idea bro. All I know is I was totally shutdown last year...zero libido, felt like crap and totally unable to get even a semi!! And the power pct worked for me!!


----------



## hackskii

BLUEV said:


> Hey Hax!
> 
> I am trying to find a good protocol for PCT. I have read a lot and your name keeps popping up, but I can't seem to message you. I am trying to get help finding a good PCT cycle. I have read soooo much on doctors notes not to do something and others, to do something... I assume Nolva and clomids are the main ones to use... I read to use HCG and read never to use HCG coming off a cycle..
> 
> Please help
> 
> Message me if you have time.
> 
> thanks
> 
> BV


If testicular function is not there then you have no choice than to not use HCG, anyone says otherwise do not listen to them.



stuey99 said:


> Yeah, I've seen people saying this mate. Is it outdated? Are there better ways to do it? Well, to be honest I have no idea bro. All I know is I was totally shutdown last year...zero libido, felt like crap and totally unable to get even a semi!! And the power pct worked for me!!


My car is out dated yet it still takes me to work every single day, never had any problems with it.

Problem is it works, works well, has a great track record with thousands of men recovering and only a modest few that did not, and that even may be explained by bad HCG, not following directions, etc.

When another person comes along, reads between the lines to something that happens to be a stretch, then there is a new plan that is the latest and greatest.

The pulsing of HCG confirms its use in the Power PCT, nothing suggests that the dosing, nor timing would change outcome results.

I read alot of things, some of it just leaves me shaking my head.

If it aint broke, don't fix it, it either works, or not, and all the recovery points to it working by thousands.

I have only seen one guy that seemed to not recover in years, and even that, he did not follow directions.

This stuff is simple, why people make it over complicated is way beyond me.


----------



## stuey99

hackskii said:


> If testicular function is not there then you have no choice than to not use HCG, anyone says otherwise do not listen to them.
> 
> My car is out dated yet it still takes me to work every single day, never had any problems with it.
> 
> Problem is it works, works well, has a great track record with thousands of men recovering and only a modest few that did not, and that even may be explained by bad HCG, not following directions, etc.
> 
> When another person comes along, reads between the lines to something that happens to be a stretch, then there is a new plan that is the latest and greatest.
> 
> The pulsing of HCG confirms its use in the Power PCT, nothing suggests that the dosing, nor timing would change outcome results.
> 
> I read alot of things, some of it just leaves me shaking my head.
> 
> If it aint broke, don't fix it, it either works, or not, and all the recovery points to it working by thousands.
> 
> I have only seen one guy that seemed to not recover in years, and even that, he did not follow directions.
> 
> This stuff is simple, why people make it over complicated is way beyond me.


You'll get no arguments from me on this one Scott...still owe you one for getting me through a really tough time with this. I started feeling better the day after first shot of hcg. Was up and down throughout the protocol, stressed abit and convinced myself at times it wasn't working. But with your reassurance I got through it and it did work!!


----------



## stuey99

hackskii said:


> If testicular function is not there then you have no choice than to not use HCG, anyone says otherwise do not listen to them.
> 
> My car is out dated yet it still takes me to work every single day, never had any problems with it.
> 
> Problem is it works, works well, has a great track record with thousands of men recovering and only a modest few that did not, and that even may be explained by bad HCG, not following directions, etc.
> 
> When another person comes along, reads between the lines to something that happens to be a stretch, then there is a new plan that is the latest and greatest.
> 
> The pulsing of HCG confirms its use in the Power PCT, nothing suggests that the dosing, nor timing would change outcome results.
> 
> I read alot of things, some of it just leaves me shaking my head.
> 
> If it aint broke, don't fix it, it either works, or not, and all the recovery points to it working by thousands.
> 
> I have only seen one guy that seemed to not recover in years, and even that, he did not follow directions.
> 
> This stuff is simple, why people make it over complicated is way beyond me.


Ps. You should treAt yourself to a new car mate, I reckon you deserve it lol.


----------



## hackskii

stuey99 said:


> Ps. You should treAt yourself to a new car mate, I reckon you deserve it lol.


I know, but it still takes me to work and back, it gets terrible gas mileage but hell, I am close to work.

My goal is being totally 100% debt free owning all my things, that will happen within or around a month.

I don't have a house payment, car payment, pretty much just a couple of hundred on a card, solar panels just 160 bucks left from 23 grand last year, and one zero interest loan with a couple of grand on it.

My goal is to have nothing coming out, and making it on retirement with money to spare.

New car is not a priority now, and next one will be cash and used as to get the most car for my buck.

It will also be high gas mileage as I can only see gas as going up.

I have been focused on this for 6 years pinching pennies and act poor, the wife hates it, but, really close now.


----------



## stuey99

hackskii said:


> I know, but it still takes me to work and back, it gets terrible gas mileage but hell, I am close to work.
> 
> My goal is being totally 100% debt free owning all my things, that will happen within or around a month.
> 
> I don't have a house payment, car payment, pretty much just a couple of hundred on a card, solar panels just 160 bucks left from 23 grand last year, and one zero interest loan with a couple of grand on it.
> 
> My goal is to have nothing coming out, and making it on retirement with money to spare.
> 
> New car is not a priority now, and next one will be cash and used as to get the most car for my buck.
> 
> It will also be high gas mileage as I can only see gas as going up.
> 
> I have been focused on this for 6 years pinching pennies and act poor, the wife hates it, but, really close now.


That's the dream mate...retire with money to spare!! I've got quite a few years to go yet, but hopefully with my mrs controlling my compulsive spending we'll be in the same boat...looking good so far, if all goes to plan I'll have my feet up, sipping a glass of Shiraz and messing about with a few grand kids by the time I'm 55!!


----------



## hackskii

stuey99 said:


> That's the dream mate...retire with money to spare!! I've got quite a few years to go yet, but hopefully with my mrs controlling my compulsive spending we'll be in the same boat...looking good so far, if all goes to plan I'll have my feet up, sipping a glass of Shiraz and messing about with a few grand kids by the time I'm 55!!


Played with the one year old grandson, and the two year old Grandaughter, I spent a lot of time playing with them, they never left me alone. Wife is jealous as they dig me the most. :lol:

But I talk to them like people, ask questions, teach, tickle, pat, etc.

it's no surprise I am number 1, I like it as much they do.


----------



## stuey99

hackskii said:


> Played with the one year old grandson, and the two year old Grandaughter, I spent a lot of time playing with them, they never left me alone. Wife is jealous as they dig me the most. :lol:
> 
> But I talk to them like people, ask questions, teach, tickle, pat, etc.
> 
> it's no surprise I am number 1, I like it as much they do.


Think grandad's are always number 1 mate!! Think it's cos no matter how old we get we're still just big kids deep down lol!! Sounds like you're living the dream over there Scott...sit back and enjoy my friend!!


----------



## BLUEV

hax,

what would be a good protocol for coming off 14 weeks of test cyp at 600 mg?


----------



## hackskii

BLUEV said:


> hax,
> 
> what would be a good protocol for coming off 14 weeks of test cyp at 600 mg?


Have you used HCG during?


----------



## BLUEV

hackskii said:


> Have you used HCG during?


YES, I have.. about 600 IU a week.


----------



## hackskii

Wait 3 weeks or a bit more, keep the HCG in the mix till you start PCT, then clomid and nolva.


----------



## mycatmagnus

Hi and greetings from the state of Michigan in the United states. I have been reading all your postings about the pct protocol..which have been amazing and have all my stuff ready to go except mixing supplies and needles. I'm 47 years old and have been shutdown for almost three years..way down on the low test range. My question is,and I can't find the answer anywhere is about mixing and injecting 2000iu's at one time. The ratio's to use,etc. I have 4 5000iu bottles of hcg. I am so eager to get started and hopefully get my libido back! This is my last shot before I consider TRT. I would sooo appreaciate any info and guidance and would even be willing to pay you some way for your advice. Thank you. sincerely,M. Wade USA


----------



## hackskii

mycatmagnus said:


> Hi and greetings from the state of Michigan in the United states. I have been reading all your postings about the pct protocol..which have been amazing and have all my stuff ready to go except mixing supplies and needles. I'm 47 years old and have been shutdown for almost three years..way down on the low test range. My question is,and I can't find the answer anywhere is about mixing and injecting 2000iu's at one time. The ratio's to use,etc. I have 4 5000iu bottles of hcg. I am so eager to get started and hopefully get my libido back! This is my last shot before I consider TRT. I would sooo appreaciate any info and guidance and would even be willing to pay you some way for your advice. Thank you. sincerely,M. Wade USA


I would not inject 20,000iu all at the same time, I would not go past 2500iu myself.

I am from California.


----------



## Zorrin

I do four short cycles, and four PCTs a year, and I usually tinker with one part of it each time.

I've found that using HCG towards the end, then the standard Clomid / tamoxifen PCT works very well. But I've decided that i recover best with 100mg clomid ed / 10mg aromasin eod, starting a little bit before all the steroids are out of my system.

I've also found this; if I let the HCG use overlap PCT by a week or two, the aromasin stops most of my "bollock test" from aromatising, and the clomid hides the bit of estrogen that slips through from my hypothalmus, no problem at all. It makes "misery fortnight" much more amenable, without noticeably slowing my recovery. I used NPP, but I was getting early morning wood the first week of PCT, and never touched viagra or cialis. I'm 45 years old.

I don't know why, but the aromasin / clomid combo works really really well. I don't bother with tamoxifen (I've got a ton of it, but I feel its better for on-cycle gyno prevention). There was a thread about clomid / aromasin PCT a few days ago, and everyone who's tried it seems to like it a lot.

I can envisage clomid / aromasin becoming the common protocol. Aromasin is a suicide aromatase inhibitor, but its fairly gentle and controllable, with no sudden aromatase rebound when you discontinue use. It differs from arimadex and letro in that it's compatible with both clomid and tamoxifen - they don't fight each other due to their mechanisms. It also improves your lipid profile, which is unusual for an AI. Aromasin is the only AI I use, on-cycle or in PCT. It handles stuff like dianabol well.

Aromasin would be no good for gyno treatment - I would use letro in that case, and put up with clicky knees and no sex drive. I've been watchful enough (or more probably just fortunate) to never suffer from gyno. But I had a miserable couple of months where I was off my oats after the last cycle I did that included a bit of tren (in a rip blend).


----------



## hackskii

Zorrin said:


> I do four short cycles, and four PCTs a year, and I usually tinker with one part of it each time.
> 
> I've found that using HCG towards the end, then the standard Clomid / tamoxifen PCT works very well. But I've decided that i recover best with 100mg clomid ed / 10mg aromasin eod, starting a little bit before all the steroids are out of my system.
> 
> I've also found this; if I let the HCG use overlap PCT by a week or two, the aromasin stops most of my "bollock test" from aromatising, and the clomid hides the bit of estrogen that slips through from my hypothalmus, no problem at all. It makes "misery fortnight" much more amenable, without noticeably slowing my recovery. I used NPP, but I was getting early morning wood the first week of PCT, and never touched viagra or cialis. I'm 45 years old.
> 
> I don't know why, but the aromasin / clomid combo works really really well. I don't bother with tamoxifen (I've got a ton of it, but I feel its better for on-cycle gyno prevention). There was a thread about clomid / aromasin PCT a few days ago, and everyone who's tried it seems to like it a lot.
> 
> I can envisage clomid / aromasin becoming the common protocol. Aromasin is a suicide aromatase inhibitor, but its fairly gentle and controllable, with no sudden aromatase rebound when you discontinue use. It differs from arimadex and letro in that it's compatible with both clomid and tamoxifen - they don't fight each other due to their mechanisms. It also improves your lipid profile, which is unusual for an AI. Aromasin is the only AI I use, on-cycle or in PCT. It handles stuff like dianabol well.
> 
> Aromasin would be no good for gyno treatment - I would use letro in that case, and put up with clicky knees and no sex drive. I've been watchful enough (or more probably just fortunate) to never suffer from gyno. But I had a miserable couple of months where I was off my oats after the last cycle I did that included a bit of tren (in a rip blend).


Well, a few thoughts on that.

Nolva improves lipid profiles as well, and I have always had highish cholesterol, on nolva it never looked better with any other lipid profile test.

It is well documented that nolva protects the leydig cells from desensitization from HCG, not seen one study confirming aromasin does this.

We know SERMS help to make GnRH more sensitive in the pituitary, not sure how aromasin works on bumping natty test levels but I would probably suggest it is lowering estrogen to not cause any negative feed back issues.

I did a aromasin, nolva PCT and that was by Anthony Roberts, and to be honest that one I failed, but to be fair I used aromasin and nolva, not clomid.

Some studies would suggest (going back I think to 1972) that clomid after a period of time made GnRH less sensitive over time, whereas nolva increased GnRH sensitivity like 6 weeks out.

Both used together no issue, but I cant say that about aromasin.

I found aromasin weak myself, I could not even control gyno with that one, just seemed like it did not work.

I always recommend an AI when using compounds that aromatize, and estrogen management helps to avoid shutdown as estrogen is approx 200 times more suppressive than testosterone.


----------



## Machette

@hackskii

hacks bro quick question; how much vit e should i use alongside the power pct?


----------



## hackskii

MonstaMuscle said:


> @hackskii
> 
> hacks bro quick question; how much vit e should i use alongside the power pct?


Well, they say 1000iu ED, but dont forget about vitamin A either.


----------



## Machette

hackskii said:


> Well, they say 1000iu ED, but dont forget about vitamin A either.


So how much of each?


----------



## hackskii

Vitamin D at 5000iu ED,

Take 1 cod liver tab a day,

20 to 25mg zinc ED max,

200 to 400mg magnesium a day,

And some vitamin E.

But any formulation of anti-oxidants would be a very good idea, these will help the leydig cells to stay healthy, OPC, ALA, resveratrol, etc.


----------



## AndyTee

Subbed


----------



## psc

I am on day 20 and today i did not take clomid, i can't stand it anymore. I am having major headache from clomid every single day and night. Even my eyeballs are starting to ache.

Should i skip few days of clomid and then get back on it? Have i ****ed up my pct by not taking clomid?


----------



## DC1

I've used the Power PCT protocol for a few years now with excellent results.

Highly recommended.


----------



## MrLulz

Anyone know the rationale of running Nolva solo for 2 weeks past Cloud cessation? I've always stopped both together around the 4 week mark.


----------



## hackskii

psc said:


> I am on day 20 and today i did not take clomid, i can't stand it anymore. I am having major headache from clomid every single day and night. Even my eyeballs are starting to ache.
> 
> Should i skip few days of clomid and then get back on it? Have i ****ed up my pct by not taking clomid?


Yah, probably the reason why it was modified, but yah, you can drop it for a bit, but keep the nolva in the mix, you can then drop the dose and try that, but even at 12.5mg clomid does still work, just not as good.



MrLulz said:


> Anyone know the rationale of running Nolva solo for 2 weeks past Cloud cessation? I've always stopped both together around the 4 week mark.


I am assuming only because the clomid starts getting crazy visual sides by 3 to 4 weeks at 100mg per day.

Nolva also helps to make GnRH more sensitive at the pituitary.

I recommend running no clomid while on hCG and run it after tapering it along the way after 2 to 3 weeks.


----------



## Richard_1980

@hackskii

I wonder if you could cast you eye over my PCT...

I've been reading these forums and researching for about a year now and am about to embark on my first cycle.

I going to run Test E only at 500mg PW split over two injections for 12 weeks.

I'm going to run HCG at 1000iu (one injection) every week from week 3 up until I start PCT.

I have adex if i show signs of gyno which i'll run at 0.5mg E3D.

My PCT looks like this:

Week 1

100 mg Clomid / 20mg Nolva

Week 2

100 mg Clomid / 20 mg Nolva

Week 3

50 mg Clomid / 20mg Nolva

Week 4

50 mg Clomid / 20mg Nolva

How does that look to you, would you change anything?

Thanks!


----------



## hackskii

Richard_1980 said:


> @hackskii
> 
> I wonder if you could cast you eye over my PCT...
> 
> I've been reading these forums and researching for about a year now and am about to embark on my first cycle.
> 
> I going to run Test E only at 500mg PW split over two injections for 12 weeks.
> 
> I'm going to run HCG at 1000iu (one injection) every week from week 3 up until I start PCT.
> 
> I have adex if i show signs of gyno which i'll run at 0.5mg E3D.
> 
> My PCT looks like this:
> 
> Week 1
> 
> 100 mg Clomid / 20mg Nolva
> 
> Week 2
> 
> 100 mg Clomid / 20 mg Nolva
> 
> Week 3
> 
> 50 mg Clomid / 20mg Nolva
> 
> Week 4
> 
> 50 mg Clomid / 20mg Nolva
> 
> How does that look to you, would you change anything?
> 
> Thanks!


Yah, the frequency of the hCG, 500iu every 3 days or so, or twice a week to make that easy.

No benefits of one shot over 2 per week same amount, only more estrogenic effects.


----------



## Richard_1980

Great, thanks.

Everything else seem ok?


----------



## hackskii

yes


----------



## bigd82

hackskii,

i came off my third cycle and did not the best PCT only ran 4 1500 iu shots of HCG every three days for 12 day, 20 mg novladex and clomid 50 mg for 4 weeks

that PCT was completed in mid august, I then took some Winnie on its on at the beginning of september. I had my bloods checked and everything came back good LH was 4.2 but my test was 190. I am 32 with no kids and want to ensure that i fully recover from my previous cycle. i thought i wanted to start again and did one shot of 250 mg test e and 200 mg eq.

i have changed my mind and want to give a good long go of being natural and focus on starting a family.

my question is this, my only shot was 1 week ago today i also ran HCG 250 iu every three days (two shots). I would greatly appreciate your opinion as to whether or not i should run the power PCT (full program) in an effort to further increase my LH and testosterone. or would you reccomend just running clomid and nolvadex.

thank you for your help


----------



## bigd82

@hackskii


----------



## hackskii

Well, probably the SERMS may be all you need.


----------



## bigd82

@hackskii could you briefly expand. what would you advise. i do have access to the HCG clomid and nolvadex.

i appreaciate all of your insight


----------



## bigd82

@hackskii could you please expand. my main questions are the following

since i did the winnie for 4 weeks ended the end of september with no pct and then took the one shot of 250 mg test e and 200 mg eq wouldn't i be shut down still? The blood work was done prior to the shot taken but after the winnie. again it showed my LH level at 4.2 but my test at 200 prior #'s were LH 10 and test 594.

the shot of test and eq were taken 8 days ago. would you advise only the SERMS? would it be detrimental to do the HCG? if i do the HCG should i do the full amount or a lesser amount. again i really really appreciate your input.


----------



## 21p

@hackskii

I have been on TRT for ~3.5 years, 100mg/w. Starting your protocol today, 7 days after my last shot of test. I did not run HCG for the last year, so I'm sure my nuts are mighty shut down.

Will update with a log for those who wish to follow my thoughts. I am a 33 year old US medical student (MD). We are on a 6 week break for the winter, so I figured this would be the ideal time to cry like a bitch and get bloated lol...

Protocol:

(Week 1-4) 2000mg HCG E3D, 20mg Tamoxifen ED x 4 weeks

--Labs--

(Week 4-7) 100mg Clomiphene ED, 20mg Nolva ED x 3 weeks

--labs--

(Week 7-9) 50mg Clomiphene ED, 20mg Nolva ED x 2 weeks

(Week 9-11) 20mg Nolva ED

--finish--

Final labs 1 month after.

I should be good on understanding the labs, but what would you recommend to combat E2 if it should rise? I am open to suggestions and will listen to experience. Just because I am smart, doesn't mean I'm experienced lol. I think not listening to professionals led me to TRT in the first place, not gonna jinx this by going my own way while terminating TRT.

Briefly, I got sick of taking damn shots every week and trying to balance all this **** out. Much easier to go natty if possible. Research suggests it is probably much safer, too.


----------



## hackskii

bigd82 said:


> @hackskii could you please expand. my main questions are the following
> 
> since i did the winnie for 4 weeks ended the end of september with no pct and then took the one shot of 250 mg test e and 200 mg eq wouldn't i be shut down still? The blood work was done prior to the shot taken but after the winnie. again it showed my LH level at 4.2 but my test at 200 prior #'s were LH 10 and test 594.
> 
> the shot of test and eq were taken 8 days ago. would you advise only the SERMS? would it be detrimental to do the HCG? if i do the HCG should i do the full amount or a lesser amount. again i really really appreciate your input.


Your issue sounds complicated.

Your gear won't be out of your system in 8 days.

What amounts of gear did you shoot 8 days ago?

You could use some hCG while the gear is in your system as the SERMS wont work till your gear gets to or below natty levels.



21p said:


> @hackskii
> 
> I have been on TRT for ~3.5 years, 100mg/w. Starting your protocol today, 7 days after my last shot of test. I did not run HCG for the last year, so I'm sure my nuts are mighty shut down.
> 
> Will update with a log for those who wish to follow my thoughts. I am a 33 year old US medical student (MD). We are on a 6 week break for the winter, so I figured this would be the ideal time to cry like a bitch and get bloated lol...
> 
> Protocol:
> 
> (Week 1-4) 2000mg HCG E3D, 20mg Tamoxifen ED x 4 weeks
> 
> --Labs--
> 
> (Week 4-7) 100mg Clomiphene ED, 20mg Nolva ED x 3 weeks
> 
> --labs--
> 
> (Week 7-9) 50mg Clomiphene ED, 20mg Nolva ED x 2 weeks
> 
> (Week 9-11) 20mg Nolva ED
> 
> --finish--
> 
> Final labs 1 month after.
> 
> I should be good on understanding the labs, but what would you recommend to combat E2 if it should rise? I am open to suggestions and will listen to experience. Just because I am smart, doesn't mean I'm experienced lol. I think not listening to professionals led me to TRT in the first place, not gonna jinx this by going my own way while terminating TRT.
> 
> Briefly, I got sick of taking damn shots every week and trying to balance all this **** out. Much easier to go natty if possible. Research suggests it is probably much safer, too.


Much like you I was on TRT, after a time it just did not work for me.

Labs are pretty simple, if estrogen gets out of whack then a mild AI would be best.

During the use of SERMS it may bump up SHBG some lowering free testosterone.

But, when levels of testosterone are low, estrogen may not be an issue, unless the T to E ratio is out.

But, looking at what you wrote, it is perfect.

Take 5000iu vitamin D every day, it seems men deficient in vitamin D tend to have hCG not work as well.

Also, Scally said no aspirin either.


----------



## bigd82

@hackskii

The one and only shot taken was Friday 11/21 it was 250 mg test enthanate and 200 mg EQ.

The labs I referenced were done prior to that shot and after a poorly executed PCT then a short 4 week cycle of winnie with no PCT.

So essentially I'm asking if I should run the full power PCT, or a modified version based on only taking one shot and that my system was coming back up prior to the shot, I realize now that I should have waited longer for a more complete comeback and have decided to take at least a year off from the gear. Please advise


----------



## hackskii

Well, probably wont be out of your system for around 2 to 3 weeks, hCG can be used at this time, then after the gear clears use clomid and nolva.


----------



## bigd82

Thank you sir. One last question... Does it matter whether you go IM or subcontanious when shooting the hcg?


----------



## DC1

bigd82 said:


> Thank you sir. One last question... Does it matter whether you go IM or subcontanious when shooting the hcg?


It doesnt matter mate though i go sub-q.


----------



## hackskii

DC1 said:


> It doesnt matter mate though i go sub-q.


No difference at all.


----------



## bigd82

@hackskii thanks for all your input so far. based on your recommendation of taking HCG now i had ran 250 iu every 3 days for the last 9 days.

I'm looking for the best course of action in my PCT based on the fact that i only took one shot. again when i had my bloods ran prior to the shot i took my LH was at just over 4 and my total free test was a bit low at 194. i am sure that was due to the winnie i took with absolutely no PCT whatsoever that ended about 45 days prior to the bloodwork. maybe i am not asking my question as clearly as possible so i apologize if i seem redundant.

it has now been 2 weeks and 3 days since my pin of 250 mg test 200 mg eq (only pin since bloodworm) i have taken 3 pins of 250 iu HCG last one being two days ago.

what PCT would you recommend? i do have the HCG and SERMS to run the full power PCT but not sure if the higher dosage of HCG would be counter productive. again i am looking to get back to full functionality and take an extended amount of time off the gear. please advise


----------



## hackskii

I would just take some clomid for like 3 weeks.


----------



## Heady Muscle

Paulo Souza said:


> Extracted from William Llewelly's Anabolics 9th Edition with permission.
> 
> Notes, sources and authors information at the bottom of the page.
> 
> The PoWer PCT study ABSTRACT: AEGIS Security & Investigations - Los Angeles Private Investigator
> 
> A more detailed ABSTRACT in PDF: 404 Not Found
> 
> (HYPOTHALAMIC PITUITARY GONADAL AXIS NORMALIZATION PROTOCOL AFTER ANDROGEN TREATMENT)
> 
> *The PoWeR PCT Program *
> 
> The PCT program outlined below represents what I consider to be an ideal and effective post-cycle program. It was developed by the doctors at the Program for Wellness Restoration (PoWeR), who have a formidable history helping patients recover normal hormonal functioning following steroid therapy. One of the key doctors on this program, Dr. Michael Scally, claims to have successfully treated more than 100 cases of hypogonadism/hypogonadotrophic hypogonadism, and is very well known in the field of androgen replacement therapy. PoWeR published this program as part of a recent clinical study, which involved 19 healthy male subjects who were taking supraphysiological (highly suppressive) doses of testosterone cypionate and nandrolone decanoate for 12 weeks. Their HPGA Normalization Protocol focuses on the combined use of HCG, Nolvadex' and Clomid, and is perhaps the only clinically documented post-cycle therapy program to be found in the medical literature (it is amazing how little attention has been paid to hormone normalization in clinical medicine). The most notable variation from a classic PCT stack, such that I have( been a longtime supporter of, is the combined use of two anti-estrogens. In this case I cannot say that there is disadvantage to such use; perhaps it is indeed the better option.
> 
> Examining the program closely, we note that the teste are hit hard with HCG at the onset of therapy. Its intake however, is limited to only 16 days. The doctor, undoubtedly recognize that when HCG is taken for too long or at too high a dosage, it can desensitize the LH receptor. This would only further exacerbate the post cycle problem, not help it. Anti-estrogens are used during and after HCG, with a dosage of 10 mg of Nolvadex and 100 mg of Clomid per day rounding out this compliment of drugs. Clomid is used for a shorter period of time than Nolvadex, likely because of the desensitizing effect it too' can have (on the pituitary gland) with continued use. Among other things, these two anti-estrogens will continue to foster LH release as testosterone levels start to go back up, as well as combat any potential estrogenic side effects that may be caused by HCG's up-regulation and testicular aromatase activity. Although in the first couple of weeks the anti-estrogens probably do very Iittlle as they should be much more helpful towards the middle and end of the program. During this clinical investigation: normal hormonal function was restored in all subjects,I within 45 days of drug cessation. This is a definite success far more favorable than the protracted recovery window noted in studies without post-cycle therapy, such as the 250 mg/week testosterone enanthate investigation, highlighted in Figure I. For me, I believe such a detailed recovery program should follow any serious steroid cycle It is the best way to maintain your gains at their maximun and that is, after all, what we are after.
> 
> Figure 2:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Note 1:
> 
> According to Dr. Michael Scally, the protocol described in Llewelly's book has been updated. - But it has changed minimally, he said. - Now I extend the hCG duration by using 2,000 IU, now 10 shots total. The tamoxifen is 20 MG PO BID.
> 
> Note 2:
> 
> About Dr. Michael Scally
> 
> Dr. Scally's education includes a double degree major in Chemistry (1975) and Life Sciences (1975) from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (M.I.T.) Cambridge, MA. Following, from 1975-1980, in the M.I.T. Division of Brain Sciences & Neuroendocrinology Dr. Scally researched and published investigations on neurotransmitter relationships.1 Dr. Scally's research included involvement and participation in the earliest studies detailing the role of tryptophan, serotonin, and depression. During this time, he entered the prestigious Health Sciences & Technology Program, a collaboration of M.I.T. and Harvard Medical School. In June 1980, Dr. Scally was awarded by Harvard Medical School a Doctorate of Medicine, M.D. Continuing his education, Dr. Scally trained at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Southwestern Medical School. Scally completed the first year of postgraduate medical residency in general surgery followed by postgraduate medical residency in anesthesiology.
> 
> Consultations. Contact Dr. Scally at [email protected] or [email protected] Dr. Scally has personally cared for thousands of individuals using AAS, particularly for anabolic steroid-induced hypogonadism. DONATIONS ARE NEEDED AND APPRECIATED AT ASIH HOME1.
> 
> Buy his book: Anabolic Steroids - A Question of Muscle: Human Subject Abuses in Anabolic Steroid Research: 9780966223118: Medicine & Health Science Books @ Amazon.com
> 
> Note 3:
> 
> About William Llewellyn
> 
> William Llewellyn is a world-renowned foremost authority on anabolic substances and its effects on muscular performance. An accomplished research scientist, author, publisher, inventor, columnist, and company CEO in the field of sports nutrition and anabolic substances, Llewellyn has been featured in ESPN Magazine, Washington Post, Fox News Channel, ESPN Television, NPR News, ESPN Radio and other national and regional TV / Radio news programs.
> 
> In addition to writing the Anabolics books, Llewellyn also publishes Body of Science Magazine, a quarterly publication dedicated to the "understanding of sports enhancement." He writes a monthly column for Muscular Development, and has written numerous articles for other bodybuilding publications including Ironman Magazine, Exercise for Men Only, and Natural Muscle.
> 
> During his fifteen years of anabolic research, Llewellyn has made several important scientific discoveries. His latest discovery of arachidonic acid has been patented for its anabolic properties and its "use as a method of increasing skeletal muscle mass."
> 
> Buy his book: William Llewellyn's Anabolics 9th Edition: 9780967930473: Amazon.com: Books
> 
> Note 4:
> 
> PoWeR : Program for Wellness Restoration website - http://www.powerusa.org


Good post, thanks!


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## fatladmfc

I just wanted to offer some feedback regarding Dr Scallys power PCT.​
After 3 years of using then abusing I decided that I wanted to fully come off. I was worried about sexual function as when I came off before I had no sex drive and struggled to have sex without Viagra.​
I decided to try the power PCT, research showed me the latest information has changed ever so slight regarding dosages, so I did the follow regime.​
*Day 1-20 : 2000iu HCG every other day.*​
*Day 1-30 : Nolva 40mg/day (20mg was taken twice per day)* *; Clomid 100mg/day (50mg was taken twice per day)*​
*Day 31-45 : Nolva 40mg/day (20mg was taken twice per day)*​
​
For me it was a complete success, my sexual function and drives are back to where they were before I started using.​
I found 100mg of Clomid quite difficult due to visions issues but I stuck with it and I've had no further issues with my sight.​
In short it worked for me, so I'm sure it will work for you.​


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## meekdown

I ran the power pct, with the help from guys on this board, I came off after 3 years of usage, lots of test, tren, winny, halo,mast etc, ran the power pct as me and my wife wanted to start a family. I also added hmg and proviron at 75mg mwf, and 200mg of prov a day, within 6 weeks my wife was pregnant and were expecting a little girl in August! I can't stress enough how worried I was before I used this program and swear by it


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## 19072

meekdown said:


> I ran the power pct, with the help from guys on this board, I came off after 3 years of usage, lots of test, tren, winny, halo,mast etc, ran the power pct as me and my wife wanted to start a family. I also added hmg and proviron at 75mg mwf, and 200mg of prov a day, within 6 weeks my wife was pregnant and were expecting a little girl in August! I can't stress enough how worried I was before I used this program and swear by it


 Like wise - I ran the power pct with added proviron and HMG. afer using gear since 2009. Always did PCT but went back on after a month lol.. 6weeks of Power pct andthe wife was pregnant. baby girl is now 9months old. We have decided to try again. I am trying to make it happen whilst on cycle. test/tren/mast.

I have added an extra 1000iu HCG and 150mg proviron. I will find out in two weeks if its worked. IF not ill come off and run the power pct along with HMG i have sitting here.


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## meekdown

Congrats mate! Look forward to seeing how you go on cycle! If you do can you let me know as I'm back on now and it would save messing about! Lol

All the best


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## 19072

meekdown said:


> Congrats mate! Look forward to seeing how you go on cycle! If you do can you let me know as I'm back on now and it would save messing about! Lol
> 
> All the best


 I'll give you a run down. Tried last month on cycle (500test/400tren/400mast - 1000iu hcg - AI) - no joy

This month added 150mg proviron and added another 1000iu HCG - window was open last week so waiting game now.

If the above doesnt work i bought 600iu MG from ADC sitting in the fridge so will considering dropping to TRT and trying for one month and if that doesnt work then come off completely lol...


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## meekdown

herc said:


> I'll give you a run down. Tried last month on cycle (500test/400tren/400mast - 1000iu hcg - AI) - no joy
> 
> This month added 150mg proviron and added another 1000iu HCG - window was open last week so waiting game now.
> 
> If the above doesnt work i bought 600iu MG from ADC sitting in the fridge so will considering dropping to TRT and trying for one month and if that doesnt work then come off completely lol...


 Sounds like a plan mate, I do think the combo of hmg and proviron work really well, best of luck mate!


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## 19072

meekdown said:


> Congrats mate! Look forward to seeing how you go on cycle! If you do can you let me know as I'm back on now and it would save messing about! Lol
> 
> All the best


 Yes i used them both together last time to great effect. I have held back as it was near 200sheets for the HMG and didnt want to trial it on cycle incase it didnt do the job lol. If in two weeks the proviron and hcg pulls through ill be stuck with these boxes of HMG lol..

pop over to my journal i am keeping a log on the pregnancy along with my training.


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## meekdown

I will check that out mate, yeah I know, I spent loads on proviron and was hesitant to use that much just in case it didn't work for me! Will check the log mate, take care


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