# whey vs food post workout



## ben jamming (Jan 28, 2008)

I have always believed (mainly due to magazines) that whey protein is a MUST after a workout due to its quick absorbtion by muscles. What I was wondering was, does the fact it is absorbed quicker mean it is better than say a nice large meal of 'real food'. So instead of having a whey shake with a bottle of gatorade, say have a large piece of meat with some veg and a melon etc??


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## bodger1976 (Nov 12, 2007)

after training your bodys in a catabolic state so taking in some quick digesting protein along with fast digesting carb to kick an insulin spike will start to reverse the catabolism and feed the muscles, as for the meal it will take time to digest and in turn longer to reverse the catabolic process, its best to take a protein/carb shake after training and have a meal about a hour or so later


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## ben jamming (Jan 28, 2008)

thats what i have always believed, but i read something recently that suggested that just because the nutrients reach your muscles faster, it does not necessarily mean your muscles will grow faster. apparantly, there is no science to back these supplement claims against whole foods.


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## big (Sep 14, 2004)

Food is fine. In fact, it may even be better for many/most people.

Did people gain muscle by lifting weights before whey protein was available? Of course!

It sounds like you're currently drinking shakes PWO, but for whatever reason want to stop (cost/don't taste nice/prefer food etc... whatever). If that's the case, switch to real food PWO for a few weeks and see if you notice any difference yourself. If the old "you must have whey PWO" is correct, then surely you'll notice a decrease in muscle and strength by not taking it? 

The reason most people take whey PWO is not because of anything other than the fact that it's an easy and convenient way to get plenty of protein in quickly. Not because food isn't as good. If you can take in the same quantity of total protein with food rather than shakes, go for food IMO.


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## ben jamming (Jan 28, 2008)

yep, im currently having 2 scoops equaling 48g protein and a bottle of gatorade. i like the convenience and dont mind the taste, i was just wondering if it would in fact be more beneficial eating a whole food meal. i think as you suggested, i will give it a try for a month or so and see what happens!


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## Sylar (Sep 7, 2008)

EAS Myoplex Original is my PW shake of choice:

* Protein 42g

* Calories 280

* Calories From Fat 20

* Total Fat 2g

* Saturated Fat 1g

* Cholesterol 15mg

* Sodium 330mg

* Potassium 550mg

* Total Carbohydrtate 24g

* Dietary Fibre <1g

* Sugars 3g

* CitriMaxTM (Garcinia cambogia) 150mg

* Choline 100mg

* Boron 1mg


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## anabolic ant (Jun 5, 2008)

big said:


> Food is fine. In fact, it may even be better for many/most people.
> 
> Did people gain muscle by lifting weights before whey protein was available? Of course!
> 
> ...





bodger1976 said:


> after training your bodys in a catabolic state so taking in some quick digesting protein along with fast digesting carb to kick an insulin spike will start to reverse the catabolism and feed the muscles, as for the meal it will take time to digest and in turn longer to reverse the catabolic process, its best to take a protein/carb shake after training and have a meal about a hour or so later


i agree very much with big and bodger....lots of truth in what they are saying.....

and i'd like to add...that there is no substitution for food...food is food...supplements are exactly what they say they are...just to supplement your diet....and because the quick carbs and protein are in an easy fluid type intake...this aids in absorption and assimilation...but i would never recommend ever going without food...after a PWO...it is after all a supplement...as said previous,anti-catabolic etc etc!!!

wholesome food i feel is the be all end all!!!

supplements are an aid to your nutrition and diet!!!

dont always believe what you read...and most decent magazines with any decent nutritionist or dietician advice for after training would recommend whole food...unless it is very late at night!!!


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## Guest (Oct 6, 2008)

I dont think there is a difference and IMO in many cases liquid meals are superior to whole food this "real" food thing is ridiculas its all made up of the same molecules the difference is a shake will not have all the other nutrients that "real" food may have. Egg whites, 2 pieces of fruit and a cup of white rice is what i use when i dont have a shake.


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## anabolic ant (Jun 5, 2008)

your idea that liquid meals are superior to food is maybe only for a certain time or period in the day...as for food...you cant replace it...if you think you can function on shakes & supplements then not being funny...i would like to see this....i would say that first off,you would start to have dietary problems,absorbtion problems(malabsorbtion),internal malfunction and after a while malnutrition,immune system problems,satiety problems and lose a lot of fat free muscle mass and strength and a whole hosts of other detrimental effects to your homeostasis!!!!

and if you want to look at everything is made up of the same molecules idea...we can extend that theory to almost everything on earth....carbon based life forms,foods,periodic table...i aint gonna go into biology and chemistry here but you know what i mean!!!

from my opinion and knowledge of nutrition....i will say that simply food is irreplaceable...and as i normally say...a healthy balanced diet cannot be compromised,you will gain all your nutrients and the best possible absorption from whole food diet...supplements are...as they are correctly named just supplements....the protein shake was invented as an additional/supplement because of intake for protein and carbohydrates needs from foods would almost be impossible to consume if we followed the 1-1.5grams or 2grams/lb of bodyweight principle....extra/additional calories of intake supplementing food comes in the form of liquid shakes....shakes and supplements alone hold in my eyes....little or no value up against foodstuffs,absorption,internal organ function,digestion....i could go on and on...i think maybe your blinded by maybe stubborness to see that foods vs supplements is a no contest(no offence)!!!!!

i could list a 100 things,that would be for starters that your shakes do not have,contain or progress to for your essential needs or non-essential for that matter....

for example...banana's contain potassium,there are not many products that will give you potassium,and at a correct dosage either!!!

certain fish...e.g. mackerel,contains not only PUFA'S(poly-unsaturated fatty acids),MUFA's(mono-unsaturated fatty acids) but contains a life saving iodine....in poor countries fish eating is encouraged because of the metabolism effects of gout!!!

i could go on on about just vegatbales,fruits,protein sources,carbohydrtae sources,fats,fluids,electrolytes balances,internal organ function....bla bla....but really from my background and i would say most if not all dieticians and nutritionists would agree...unless folk were so poor and malnutritioned or recovering from serious illness that only supplements containing only a few essential nutrients/ingredients could be administered...before re-introduction of solid foods!!!!

natural progression and selection here inicates that foods are a tried and tested deal...right from the beginning of times to even now...babies would not grow if they didnt progress from milk and mushy food to whole solid foodstuffs!!!!

i am very strong on this...is because food is what i studied...i just feel that you mistyped or didnt think too deeply into what you was saying...i think this debate is down to ones education and knowledge of foods...

i know a few bodybuilders who even when dieting will still eat very lean strips of meat with rice cakes,ryvita and such like and use supplements as supplemements still...sorry to sound like i'm being offensive,i'm not...just got me on one of my subjects that i go deep into to!!!!!


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## ba baracuss (Apr 26, 2004)

Since when was milk protein not food?

Regardless of what science says, it seems fairly logical to me that your body needs nutrients to repair itself ASAP after a workout, so the quicker they absorb, the better.

A solid plate of food is the last thing I want after a workout, not to mention impractical.

In the days before whey, I would imagine they drank milk PWO, maybe adding in some eggs.


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## anabolic ant (Jun 5, 2008)

not being rude but i agree with you for a post workout shake...but after that...maybe you didnt read all of what i said above...there is a time and a place for that protein shake,firstly carbs then the shake....i have em after a workout myself...but then i have a bloody good big meal a little while after that...you can be sure of that!!!

i have my cereal in the morning and then some toast,fish fingers(ooops secret diet details out now),then i have a protein drink with that ...but throughout the day...my main deal is food and i'm guessing so is everyone else's....there is a time n place for that shake and (if not in the morning,or mid morning)then its pretty much after a workout...and if your like me...after the foods...a shake before i go to bed....so i dont disagree...but as a food vs shakes debate...go back and read carefully!!!!!

and tbh bodybuilding has become a science....i used to think like a lot of guys...and i say this with caution used to be a proper meathead...thought everyone was stuck up,thinking they was better than me etc...but if you really read and understood what i was saying you'd probably agree with me!!!!

mate,i'm from the same place most people come from...council estate,hard upbringing,but a few years ago i decided i wanted/needed to do some sh*t for my kids,role model,help them do their homework,achieve something,get a decent job etc etc etc and went to uni...sh*t i aint no academic with mummy n daddy backing me or a silver spooner(no offence)...but i worked hard,got my degree in human nutrition and speak with a levelled tongue ...so what i said is true...you cant substitute food....trust me!!!!

and yes having a quick liquid absorptive shake with nutrients after training is a bloody good idea,in fact genius....but what happens after that or before that....shakes for tea,breakfast????

my point exactly....and i believe i'm answering the original question from ben jamming about absorption....he wanted to know because its quicker absorption does that mean shakes are a better idea than having a meal....welll after a workout yes...but in reality....all the time.....NO!!!!!

i just explained this fact in depth a bit so other people could see,if they didnt know!!!


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## Guest (Oct 7, 2008)

Long posts there Ant.

You didnt understand what i meant in my post which shows i should have worded it better and saved you typing out that monster reply

The term I used was LIQUID MEALS compared to SOLID FOOD (which is what people usually term every thing not liquid).

Liquid meals can be any food item liquidized personally over half my meals are liquidized because i dont like to eat most of which are not supplument based quick examples include; egg whites, udo oil, oats, orange juice all blended together. Same molocule means exactly that if i eat oats in a bowl or liquidize them they are still oats.

Back to the original question, post training you need fast absorbed protein and carbs and IMO there is nothing wrong with essential fats at this time even if it slows absorbtion but that is a different topic. Now if this is in the form of a shake or physically eating it either way is just fine liquid will absorb faster than whole food because it doesnt need to be broken down.


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## anabolic ant (Jun 5, 2008)

Con said:


> I dont think there is a difference and IMO in many cases liquid meals are superior to whole food this "real" food thing is ridiculas its all made up of the same molecules the difference is a shake will not have all the other nutrients that "real" food may have. Egg whites, 2 pieces of fruit and a cup of white rice is what i use when i dont have a shake.


i',m very particular to detail as you know...but yes...you didnt state that you liquidise your meals mush!!!!

you only stated this in your latest reply...???

so to the original answer...which i've probably answered yes to about 5-6 times on different occasions...is that i agree with the whole post workout shake...liquid thing!!!!

blimey...not being rude...but it may be me or be late...but i do proof read what i write and if you did read what i say...i agree,crying out loud...i'm saying the same thing over n over!!!!

go back n see/read...i agree son!!!!


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## Guest (Oct 7, 2008)

anabolic ant said:


> i',m very particular to detail as you know...but yes...you didnt state that you liquidise your meals mush!!!!
> 
> you only stated this in your latest reply...???
> 
> ...


PMSL you sound frantic:lol:but i do see your point bodybuilding at its best has to be very scientific:thumbup1:

My reply didnt state that because for postwork out i really dont think it matters, some people feel hungry pw and can eat a big meal, i feel sick as a dog after training and barely can drink a shake the only important factor is getting in protein and carbs for repair. Now at other times of the day if your not eating any real food and its all muscletech whey shakes then you will have a problem perhaps not even in muscle growth but certaintly your health will suffer.

A great quote from Dogcrapp is "if every one put the same thought into all their meals as they do their post work out meal there would be a lot more monsters walking around". :beer:


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## pastanchicken (Sep 29, 2008)

I have both, get a shake down right after training, then get home and put some chicken/lean steak on.

Plenty of protein :thumbup1:


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## trickymicky69 (Oct 1, 2004)

i think it was hacksii that said the brain/stomach connection and the use of nutrients is reduced in liquid meals.

the human body is designed to chew, digest and use nutrients.

they didnt have eas myoplex when we were chasing mammoths around the countryside and we havent evolved that much apart from the porn industry


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## paulo (Feb 17, 2007)

i have protein shake and banana-then make meal,protein and carbs with a glass of milk mmmmmmmmmm


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## SD (Sep 3, 2004)

Its all food as far as your body is concerned :thumb: liquid or solid it is just broken down to its constuent parts and then reserved for use later on or excreted.

Threre is more than enough amino acids stored in your body to repair after a workout BUT I absolutely love my PW shake, its part of my routine and will never drop it as its my reward for work well done! :cool2: If it helps build on the muscle, cool beans 

More important imho is to have some anti-oxidants pwo, I used to take these as a tablet but I see cnp have added them to their pwo recovery drink which I am gonna try as of this week.

Anti-oxidants get used up very quickly during exercise and anecdotally during smoking too, cell damage is the result, this can have deleterious effects on your general health that may not be immediately apparent or easily attributable to one cause.

Play safe and take some good anti-oxidant food or supplements pwo then have something you enjoy, solid or otherwise as a reward for your effort.


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## pastanchicken (Sep 29, 2008)

I'm the same, after I've finished my workout I have a shake, and it does feel like a reward for all the hard work.


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## totalimmortal (Sep 18, 2008)

I beleive this article you read...

Hormones produce longer sustained affects within the body, and when the 'catabolic' hormones are secreted into the bloodstream during strenuous excercise then their effects will keep on going untill the hormones themselves are all passed out through the urine...

But it's also possible because an influx of sugar into the blood is going to cause insulin secretions as well that the insulin may counter act the effects of the catabolic hormones but as always it just depends upon the relative amounts of each hormone and the ratio or balance they acheive with each other...

I'm not sure if protein on it's own is going to cause insulin secretions though, maybe someone else knows?


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## totalimmortal (Sep 18, 2008)

SportDr said:


> Threre is more than enough amino acids stored in your body to repair after a workout


I'm not too sure, I think the amino acid pool is very limited when it comes to this...

The protein breakdown that occurs during the workout is probably only going to be repaired from protein held elsewhere in the body...

Remember the small pool of interchangeable proteins is probably also being used to produce enzymes, hormones, lipoproteins and many other things it's not like it's much of a reserve.


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## SD (Sep 3, 2004)

totalimmortal said:


> I'm not sure if protein on it's own is going to cause insulin secretions though, maybe someone else knows?


Cant remember the source but I do remember a debate about wheys effects on insulin secretion on this board many moons ago? perhaps it was Isolate?



totalimmortal said:


> I'm not too sure, I think the amino acid pool is very limited when it comes to this...
> 
> The protein breakdown that occurs during the workout is probably only going to be repaired from protein held elsewhere in the body...
> 
> Remember the small pool of interchangeable proteins is probably also being used to produce enzymes, hormones, lipoproteins and many other things it's not like it's much of a reserve.


Your absolutely right, there are many 'mouths to feed' for the AA pool, reps for that, but from memory I saw an estimate of around 150g, thats a lot of protein to share so I wouldnt worry about running out before you got a good meal inside you. I did an article on this here somewhere yonks back about protein and osteoporosis, my conclusion was that you should target your AA, rather than take broad spectrum ones such as in a whey supplement, for the situation if you were worried about not having enough protein to go around.

Besides I am stll advocating pwo shake cos I love it! sod the science :beer:

SD

FOund the article here


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## ParaManiac (Mar 20, 2007)

SportDr said:


> Cant remember the source but I do remember a debate about wheys effects on insulin secretion on this board many moons ago? perhaps it was Isolate?


Whey is indeed insulogenic,hence the reason milk is.

It's the whey fractions that create an insulin response even though the Gi is low.


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## thestudbeast (Jul 20, 2007)

Whey protein insulegenic due to the high amount of BCAA's.

An insulin spike PWO is necessary to lower cortisol, this should be done ASAP so a shake makes perfect sense as its better at getting this insulin response and you can consume it after your last set, which you can't do with a meal.

PWO carbs and protein also increases androgen receptors and so you want this to happen ASAP also. Unless you hate shakes then go with a carb/protein shake diretly PWO to optimise gains.


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## ben jamming (Jan 28, 2008)

Have very much enjoyed reading this thread, lots of helpful information. I guess I will stick to what I have always down then and have the shake straight away post workout, then within the hour have a big meal with meat, carbs etc. Although I do agree with con, I find it hard to eat within that hour, I just eat it slowly until its gone.

I also noticed the point that liquid meals are an adequate way to get food down you. I do a lot of blending throughout the day as well as eating whole foods just to get the nutrients without having to sit down for ages. I can say now there is no way I could eat the oats I eat if they were not in my shake along with egg whites etc. As for the supplements themselves, apart from postworkout and before bed, I only use them as a way to bump up my protein intake with meals or unless I am SERIOUSLY stretched for time and need something quick.

There are obviously some people on here with incredible knowledge so its nice to hear all sides to the argument. Anabolic ant, were you being serious about the fish fingers or was it a joke!?


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## SD (Sep 3, 2004)

ParaManiac said:


> Whey is indeed insulogenic,hence the reason milk is.
> 
> It's the whey fractions that create an insulin response even though the Gi is low.


Aha! Knew there was something on it.

I dont agree with your first statement though matey, if milk is insulogenic its because its high in sugar (Lactose) primarily I should think. Whey is low or none lactose so I dont think they are comparable that whey (way, lol) :bounce:

SD


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## SD (Sep 3, 2004)

thestudbeast said:


> Whey protein insulegenic due to the high amount of BCAA's.
> 
> An insulin spike PWO is necessary to lower cortisol, this should be done ASAP so a shake makes perfect sense as its better at getting this insulin response and you can consume it after your last set, which you can't do with a meal.
> 
> PWO carbs and protein also increases androgen receptors and so you want this to happen ASAP also. Unless you hate shakes then go with a carb/protein shake diretly PWO to optimise gains.


You cant increase the quantity of receptors did you mean make them more receptive/sensitive? essentially your point is spot on though a mix of carbs and protein is the way forward. Heres a nice article to support that


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## Seyyed-Merat (Sep 1, 2007)

Food is the best thing ever in terms of bodybuilding and even power sports. Its the most anabolic thing you can put in your body, however I prefere shakes and fluid because after training I aint hungry im more thirsty and its quick and convinient sure I could get the same from having some eggs and maybye high gi carbs from food such as white rice pasta etc but its not the thing thats on my mind when ive finished blasting the s**t out of my legs! The only people Ive seen who live on protien shakes are male fashion models (like replace them with food)...not exactly huge:whistling:

As many here said

Supplements only supplement a good diet consisting of good quality grub.


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## anabolic ant (Jun 5, 2008)

ben jamming said:


> Anabolic ant, were you being serious about the fish fingers or was it a joke!?


well ben...i'm not gonna lie to you mate...i actually have been having fish fingers n toast nearly every morning after my cereal for years(if not fingers a fried egg or two),probably going back to a kid....i know,i know...its not the best thing in the world,but i like to break my fast (breakfast) with a substantial amount of calories in the morning,kicks my day off nicely....my cereal is healthy,i grill the fingers an have brown bread,so not all bad....then my shake!!!!

i was being serious bro...i guess were all different...and have our thing!!!!

btw way,this is a good post so i'll send a rep your way!!!!!


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## thestudbeast (Jul 20, 2007)

SportDr said:


> You cant increase the quantity of receptors did you mean make them more receptive/sensitive? essentially your point is spot on though a mix of carbs and protein is the way forward. Heres a nice article to support that


err not sure how that backs up your point at all, try this one 

Human Performance Laboratory, Department of Kinesiology, University of Connecticut, Storrs, CT 06269-1110, USA. [email protected]

PURPOSE: The purpose of this investigation was to determine the effects of 3 wk of L-carnitine L-tartrate (LCLT) supplementation and post-resistance-exercise (RE) feeding on hormonal and androgen receptor (AR) responses. METHODS: Ten resistance-trained men (mean+/-SD: age, 22+/-1 yr; mass, 86.3+/-15.3 kg; height, 181+/-11 cm) supplemented with LCLT (equivalent to 2 g of L-carnitine per day) or placebo (PL) for 21 d, provided muscle biopsies for AR determinations, then performed two RE protocols: one followed by water intake, *and one followed by feeding (8 kcal.kg body mass, consisting of 56% carbohydrate, 16% protein, and 28% fa*t). RE protocols were randomized and included serial blood draws and a 1-h post-RE biopsy. After a 7-d washout period, subjects crossed over, and all experimental procedures were repeated. RESULTS: LCLT supplementation upregulated (P<0.05) preexercise AR content compared with PL (12.9+/-5.9 vs 11.2+/-4.0 au, respectively). RE increased (P<0.05) AR content compared with pre-RE values in the PL trial only. Post-RE feeding significantly increased AR content compared with baseline and water trials for both LCLT and PL. Serum total testosterone concentrations were suppressed (P<0.05) during feeding trials with respect to corresponding water and pre-RE values. Luteinizing hormone demonstrated subtle, yet significant changes in response to feeding and LCLT. CONCLUSION: In summary, these data demonstrated that: *1) feeding after RE increased AR content, which may result in increased testosterone uptake*, and thus enhanced luteinizing hormone secretion via feedback mechanisms; and 2) *LCLT supplementation upregulated AR content*, which may promote recovery from RE.

PMID: 16826026 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

seems AR content can be increased 

BTW Para is right about the specific amino's in whey being insulegenic, it has nothing to do with the lacto's  .


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## thestudbeast (Jul 20, 2007)

SportDr said:


> Aha! Knew there was something on it.
> 
> I dont agree with your first statement though matey, if milk is insulogenic its because its high in sugar (Lactose) primarily I should think. Whey is low or none lactose so I dont think they are comparable that whey (way, lol) :bounce:
> 
> SD


So we know lactose has a low GI so you'd of thought the II would be simmilar. Two schools of thought on this one, the first is lactose is so hard to digest that the body pumps out insulin in response. The second and much more credible reason is that the amino's in milk interact with the low GI lactose to give the response, this has been out lined by Para but here's some more info:

http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/135/3/376

we now can see than high levels of BCAA's have a separate insulin releasing capability.


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## SD (Sep 3, 2004)

thestudbeast said:


> err not sure how that backs up your point at all, try this one


Wasnt trying to back my point up 'err' was trying to back up yours :whistling:


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## SD (Sep 3, 2004)

thestudbeast said:


> BTW Para is right about the specific amino's in whey being insulegenic, it has nothing to do with the lacto's  .


And I didnt say my good friend Para was wrong I said I disagreed with the comparison to whey :innocent:


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## SD (Sep 3, 2004)

thestudbeast said:


> http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/135/3/376
> 
> we now can see than high levels of BCAA's have a separate insulin releasing capability.


I would adjust that statement to say, 'we can now see that administration of Leucine in food deprives rats has an insulin releasing capability' still an interesting read though :thumb:


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## thestudbeast (Jul 20, 2007)

So I'm not sure what your point is, in terms of milk we know it does give a strong insulin response but we also know its low GI.

We also know that lactose is low GI and so should not cause this response even though it is a sugar. Do you go with the poor digestion theory or do you have another?

As for the article I'd agree that yes it does show that carb + prot is ideal PWO but you state that AR content can not be altered, I was wondering what your basing this on, as per the study I posted I thought both content and sensitivity could be increased via various means.

In terms of amino's not only lecuine has this insulin response, you do have to peice it together from human and animal studies but some amino's such as BCAA's and glutamine* show insulegenic activity.

*from memory could be wrong!


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## ben jamming (Jan 28, 2008)

appreciate the rep anabolic ant, believe thats my first. As for fish fingers, may just have to give it a try myself!

There is definitely some deep knowledge in this thread, am enjoying the read even though i dont understand all of it, good way to learn though.


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