# Why is steroid use so accepted here?



## Stanco (Jan 7, 2007)

That's not what in think body building is about. Body building to me is about getting a healthy body, healthy mind. I can't see anything rewarding about taking these drugs.

To me it gives me the message that "I don't care about my health, i'll do anything to get big".


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## SD (Sep 3, 2004)

Stanco said:


> That's not what in think body building is about. Body building to me is about getting a healthy body, healthy mind. I can't see anything rewarding about taking these drugs.
> 
> To me it gives me the message that "I don't care about my health, i'll do anything to get big".


I am not saying that your comments do not have any credability as there is a bit of truth to your statement although only when applied to a few people here certainly not all and you haven't made that distinction.

For example have a read of my posts and please tell me that I am not interested in my or others health or HAckskii for that matter.

For someone as new to the board as yourself, criticising the community you just joined, is not a way to win friends,I am sure you knew that when you made your statement.

So can I ask, what qualifies you to be so judgemental?

You say its not what you consider bodybuilding to be about, but what experience do you have?

Do you have any evidence to substantiate your claim that steroid use is saying ''I dont care about my health and I will do anything to get big''

I actually agree with the aboe statement when applied to many of this years new joiners to the board, but that is why the moderators and others with more experience, try to steer noobs away from AAS and onto a path of natural health. If people insist they are going to use AAS regardless of our warnings, then we advice them how to do it safely, taking as many precautions as possible, read the numerous PCT threads, supplements threads in particular my vitamin thread 

I think you will get flame grilled for starting this thread, you don't know us well enough to judge us, and your statement was innacurrate, however, I think what you have done is a good thing as it will highlight a few important points to the new joiners.

SD


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## Magic Torch (May 30, 2005)

Thanks for that post Stanco......

Just one thing, as you are so sure that steroids are detrimental to health please can you post some links to information you have studied to back this point up?

Which post's on UK-M, from senior members, lead you to your sweeping 'I dont care' statement? Agreed some new members have that logic, but they are not encouraged they are pointed in the right direction.

I use steriods, and I see myself as healthy, as does my doctor.

Also one last point, steriods are only discussed in the steriod section so if you dont agree with it then dont go in there.


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## Tinytom (Sep 16, 2005)

Stanco said:


> That's not what in think body building is about. Body building to me is about getting a healthy body, healthy mind. I can't see anything rewarding about taking these drugs.
> 
> To me it gives me the message that "I don't care about my health, i'll do anything to get big".


There are plenty of boards where steroid use is not talked about.

There are drugs in every sport and thats what you have to accept. There are guys who will rinse the gear and not pay attention to their diet and training but thats just the way things are. As for rewards, personally the rewards for me are

1. I like the way my physique looks

2. I love the feeling of being on stage and looking like a freaky muscle beast

3. Gear aside I am one of the healthiest people you will come across, i don't drink or smoke or do recreational drugs and my diet is spot on.

3. I get loads of chicks 

Bodybuilding is about getting a healthy body and mind yes but competitive bodybuilding is an extreme and at any professional level you have drugs

Do you think every cyclist in the world uses EPO for endurance? of course not but cycling is a healthy pursuit.

And every person who does athletics doesnt use THG etc but this was used at the Olympic level.

No one on this board says that steroids are a healthy pursuit but not everyone on this board uses gear. Also if you look at www.uk-muscle.com a site I also mod on there is no discussion about steroid use there but none of the natural guys there will slate gear users as they understand that to reach a certain ideal physique you have to use.

*Oh BTW to any members who feel the urge to insult this guy for this post, dont cos I'll immediately edit your post and send you an infraction. This is a discussion board and I wont accept ganging up on him because he has raised a sensitive topic.*

Cheers


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## Great White (Apr 4, 2003)

Tinytom said:


> *Oh BTW to any members who feel the urge to insult this guy for this post, dont cos I'll immediately edit your post and send you an infraction. This is a discussion board and I wont accept ganging up on him because he has raised a sensitive topic.*


Yep, was gonna say exactally the same thing. Hansome here beat me too it tho.

Everyone is entitled to there oppinion, This is an Open discussion board.

We support natural and non-natural athletes here, so every view is accepted.


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## Delhi (Dec 8, 2005)

Stanco said:


> That's not what in think body building is about. Body building to me is about getting a healthy body, healthy mind. *I* can't see anything rewarding about taking these drugs.
> 
> To me it gives me the message that "I don't care about my health, i'll do anything to get big".


Also agree with others replys.................

Just like to add that I too dont smoke, drink, do recreational drugs and also have a good diet.

I also attend gym 4 times per week, do cardio in my house 6 times per week (While most "Normal" people are sleeping) and tend to get involved in other outdoor / active persuit's.

While most normal people were watching TV, sleeping, going to a pub resturant, cinema etc I have been working hard in the gym.

So, in comparison to 99% of the population I am EXTREMLEY fit and healthy.


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## Magic Torch (May 30, 2005)

Delhi said:


> While most normal people were watching TV, sleeping, going to a pub resturant, cinema etc I have been working hard in the gym.


Loser :tongue10:

*Tom/Paul: What? you didn't say I couldn't insult Del?!?


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## Delhi (Dec 8, 2005)

Magic Torch said:


> Loser :tongue10:
> 
> *Tom/Paul: What? you didn't say I couldn't insult Del?!?


RALMAO


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## carpe diem (Jan 6, 2007)

your views are accepted stanco but i am proof that the moderators and peeps on here always steer you in the right direction, i only came here to get info on steroids but they have all changed my mind and told me to get a good diet and put on natural weight before i even consider steroids,i feel now is the right time to say a big thankyou to all of you whom have pointed me in the right direction " THANKYOU ALL"


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## LEWIS (Oct 28, 2005)

if it was not for the advice i have been given on this site due to it being open to conversation, i would be in a lesser health state than i am now (also would my friends as they wuld have listend to my logic), on many occasions i have been pointed to the right direction i would have been taking the steroid without any guidence - now i have guidence - which is surley better for my health.


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## Harry1436114491 (Oct 8, 2003)

Maybe we could do with a "natural" MOD on here?


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## DB (Oct 31, 2003)

Harry said:


> Maybe we could do with a "natural" MOD on here?


*Puffs out chest and bellows i'll do it  *


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## the_gre8t_1ne (Apr 18, 2005)

DB said:


> *Puffs out chest and bellows i'll do it *


The only thing natty about u is ur teeth!


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## Tinytom (Sep 16, 2005)

Harry said:


> Maybe we could do with a "natural" MOD on here?


To my knowledge Peg doesnt use gear. LMFAO


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## Tinytom (Sep 16, 2005)

DB said:


> *Puffs out chest and bellows i'll do it  *


No Gays allowed

(not meaning homosexuals but rather great big dancing fairies like DB that train in girly gyms with limited weights cos they are afraid of training heavy) :tongue10:


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## invisiblekid (Jun 18, 2006)

I really haven't studied steriods to the extent of 99% of the guys on here, and although I do plan on using them in the next 18months - 2 years, my view point on this arguement is that most people use (or at least see) them as a quick fix to sticking on muscle without realising their full natural potential.

While that is not a critisism of anyone here directly I feel that there is a slight tendancy from this and other boards (maybe its just society and not the boards??) to use steriods way too early.

Having said that, anyone has the right to choose and while I don't agree with it, it simply is their choice.


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## leeston (May 30, 2006)

DB - Natural MOD, I think it meant AAS free not 'natural' in any other way!lol.

As for Stanco's original post I feel he has a valid question and I am yet to observe a regular poster on here who would flame him. I think/hope you are quite safe here Stanco!

I am natural and to be honest I think that is the way I will stay. I feel there is plenty for me to learn about my body and health before I consider the 'dark side', if at all. PSCarb and TT have taught me that.

Me and my fiancee (yes I have one and she accepts me in my pants like in the pic on the left) and we have VERY differing views on training and body aesthetics. The look of a bodybuilder to her is gross to the point that she is sooo quick to ridicule. I accept this as I apperciate that it is no everyone's cup of tea.

We also have differing views about fat people (I mean biggggggg people). When watching these health and diet programs on the tv which appear to be the new fasion tv, I cannot go 10 mins without saying 'fat [email protected]@rd' and 'its your own fault', much to her annoyance. I find it funny that people find fat acceptable but dedicated BB'ers distgusting?

Me, on the other hand apperciate the BB look, like all the other members on this site. I dont just see muscle, I see symetry, hard work and extreme consideration to detail (diet and training). I have the upmost admiration for all of these guys who compete, assisted or not.

The answer to your question, in my opinion, is that when you have been in this sport (and to me it is a sport) you can get bit by the bug and you want to make the most of what you can, or have got. I accept that 'some' simply go ahead and down the drugs without considering the post conditions. It is for this reason that I have steered away. If the pitfalls were not so bad, and more importantly my knowledge was better, then I would do it. I strress here 'if my knoweldge was better'.

Driving a car to me means getting from A to B in comfort. For that reason I will by cars that have more comfort features than speed features. Others by a new fast car with all of the trimmings. Mechanics tinker with their cars in a professional manner and get the best out of them safely, however this does not interest me me at.

Yet, on the other end of the spectrum you get uneducated and unqualified people who will buy [email protected] cars and fill them with gadgets and things to make them accelerate at high speed without considering other areas such as brakes! These are the stupid ones and stupid people exist in all walks of life.

As with everything, education is the key!

Steroids, if administered properly, I beleive, can be effective and harmless. Dont feel threatened by them. If you dont want them in you life you dont need them. If you look at BB as simply a means of loosing fat and gaining general muscle to look and feel good then this is the sport for you. However, if you want to compete at the highest level you possibly can then AAS is something for consideration at a later stage.

Natural's do compete but the notoriaty and prizes are far less. Everyone can name the Mr O contenders, who can name the natural equivelent, I rest my case!

I realise I have waffled but I am sitting here eating my 11.00 luch at the same time so please forgive me!

We


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## Jock (Apr 8, 2003)

Some fantastic repsonses so far guys - so many boards would've flamed this kid to hell and back but instead he has got mature, well thought out and intelligent replies. One of the reasons why I keep coming back.

Mate you only have to turn on the TV or read the newspaper to find out the sh1t state of the nations health, obesity, binge drinking, anorexia etc.

I'm not saying people don't abuse steroids but you must realise that people abuse all drugs, alcohol and nictotine are far more widely abused that steroids- as well as more accepted, you wouldn't bat an eyelid if you saw someone sparking up a *** on the high street compared to someone dropping trou and jabbing a few cc's of Deca or Test.

Bodybuilding promotes a healthy diet and exercise something many medical experts are begging the general public to do more of - steroids and bodybuilding are very closely related, but you seem to be confusing the use and misuse as the same thing. You could go into your local Pub and ask all the regulars why they think it's ok to drink and smoke to excess, I don't think you'll find such a calm response as you've found here.

Mate I've done three successful cycles of steroids and I can say honestly I'm a happier and healthier person since I finished. I don't consider myself as a 'roid monkey' or a 'juice junkie'.

As SportDR said some of your points are valid, long term prolonged steroid use is not good for you but you won't find anyone on here promoting that.

Jock


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## ah24 (Jun 25, 2006)

Everyone has summed it all up about steroids really except one thing with stanco's post..(and not a flame here!)

You say bodybuilding to you is a healthy body and mind, when actually a bodybuilder is someone who competes in competitions for the best physique (size, definition, condition etc)


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## Tinytom (Sep 16, 2005)

ah24 said:


> You say bodybuilding to you is a healthy body and mind, when actually a bodybuilder is someone who competes in competitions for the best physique (size, definition, condition etc)


OMG prepare for a heated exchange.......:eek:


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## ah24 (Jun 25, 2006)

Tinytom said:


> OMG prepare for a heated exchange.......:eek:


Woops, what have i done lol..

I remember this debate, let me rectify myself lol *in my opinion* a bodybuilder is somebody that competes in the sport (or intends to and is training towards it)

I wouldnt class people who just go to the gym to train mirror muscles as bodybuilders


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## NikiE (Feb 23, 2005)

Not knowing much about steroids i cant really comment, but in my opinion, this site plugs the SAFE use of them....they dont promote the use but just advise peop]le on the best ways to use them...

They are gonna get used anyway....so...thats just my input


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## leeston (May 30, 2006)

ah24 said:


> Woops, what have i done lol..
> 
> I remember this debate, let me rectify myself lol *in my opinion* a bodybuilder is somebody that competes in the sport (or intends to and is training towards it)
> 
> I wouldnt class people who just go to the gym to train mirror muscles as bodybuilders


AH - to put into context what you mean is that Bodybuilding is a generic term. To some it can mean anything from aerobically based weight training right through to competing and powerlifting (although I appreciate the power lifters on here would not like to hear that).


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## ah24 (Jun 25, 2006)

Yes sad..but i googled the definition of bodybuilding:

'Bodybuilding is the sport of developing muscle fibers through the combination of weight training, increased caloric intake, and rest. Competitive bodybuilders display their physiques to a panel of judges, who assign points.'

Sorry but IMO *nothing* to do with powerlifting, just because somebody uses the gym it does not make them a bodybuilder, that is where most people are wrong, again IMO


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## Ironball (Sep 22, 2004)

I agree with NiKiE. lets not stick our heads up our bums(although some of you guys like that sort of thing) Better to have a place that people can ask about drugs and get informed, rather than just buying cat pish and sticking it in buttocks. If I was going to go down the drug road then at least people on here could tell me how to go about it.

Personally I don't want to use roids because I don't like the potential side effects, esp acne and hairloss which I get anyway. Don't blame anyone for using though because my progress is snailpace. Although now I am eating enough I am getting more progress. I would be pretty happy just to reach mu own natural potential limit. Though some guys want to compete, model, act and make a name for themselves and to do that then most likely you will have to use roids.

Lets say your ambition is to compete in worlds strongest Man. I don't suppose Mr. Pudinowski(proably spelt wrong but will help in any potential liable case) will stop using will he?

Its up to the individual whether they want to take steroids. Rather that than people sit on their ars' smoking and eating bags of doughnuts. I wonder which costs the NHS more.


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## [email protected] (Jan 6, 2007)

Stanco said:


> That's not what in think body building is about. Body building to me is about getting a healthy body, healthy mind. I can't see anything rewarding about taking these drugs.
> 
> To me it gives me the message that "I don't care about my health, i'll do anything to get big".


i dont think its so accepted here i joined the site for information on some steriods id bought myself and due to the feed back iv had from people here ive got rid of them and have read some great advice how to do it naturally,so in fact these lads have stopped me using them ,if it wasnt for the site i could be realy ****ing myself up with em. that doesnt mean iv anything against steriods i just dont think i need out like that for the goals i wanna achieve,i just realised reading this site i just need to improve my diet.


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## Stanco (Jan 7, 2007)

Hey, thx for the replies guys. I understand where all of you are coming from.


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## megatron (Apr 21, 2004)

Stanco I kind of agree with you that steroids are bad mkay. But - that is not to say that sensible, controlled use isn't reasonably safe. I had a debate with Tom and Paul a few weeks ago on the same topic, it is historically relevant that steriods do cause health problems in some cases. Obviously nobody can say catagorically that we know all of the affects of steriod use. It is my personal opinion that they do impact health but that sensible users are able to minimise that impact.


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## Biker (Apr 8, 2003)

Harry said:


> Maybe we could do with a "natural" MOD on here?


me and Jimmy are both natural, lol well we are now anyhow 

it's well over 2 years since I've touched anything and don't think I ever will again!


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## ah24 (Jun 25, 2006)

Biker said:


> me and Jimmy are both natural, lol well we are now anyhow
> 
> it's well over 2 years since I've touched anything *and don't think I ever will again!*


Did it go wrong or something?


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## Biker (Apr 8, 2003)

in my honest opionion mate I abused steroids, used far too much for far too long. But then again I would say at least 60-70% of steroid users also do this but bury their heads in the sand and think they are ok.

I think my worst stage was being on for 12 months apart from a 6 week break at the 6 month stage... doses reached over 3g a week towards the end of the year...

A lot of guys should go and get a chest xray and see just how enlarged their heart is, I have no heart problems but my heart is a lot bigger than it should be, which may cause problems in later life.

Had some serious recovery problems, after the false recovered feeling that a clomid course gives you finally wears off.


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

Harry said:


> Maybe we could do with a "natural" MOD on here?


Why ??


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## dezikrate (Jul 18, 2006)

1. I like the way my physique looks

2. I love the feeling of being on stage and looking like a freaky muscle beast

3. Gear aside I am one of the healthiest people you will come across, i don't drink or smoke or do recreational drugs and my diet is spot on.

3. I get loads of chicks 

Hey you were doing well there Tom...until the last line!!!!!  :rolleye11


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## Littleluke (Nov 21, 2005)

I respect your post stanco but you're one of many people who only know of steroids through other people. the old wrod of mouth "steroids make your willy smaller" or "you'll be dead by the time you're 50". If abused any drug can cause you long term problems. There's a steroid seminar tape in the steroids section. Listen to it, 9 people since 1930 died in relation to steroids. How many people died from smoking related illnesses this year? thousands.

You're entitled to have an opinion mate and I respect you 100% for saying how you feel.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Myself I always encourage guys to not start.

But if they do start I would rather give them some sensible advice as they are going to use anyway without my help or anyone else's.

Id rather they get direction and understanding what happens along the way than let them find out the way I did.

Good advice is just that, Good advice.

For the record, all drugs have their own set of side effects, no getting around this; some happen fast, others very slow.

I am fully aware of the side effects of steroids.

But for the record, I don't know of anyone on the board that openly recommends their use to anyone that has not been in the game for very long.


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## mant01 (Jan 1, 2007)

I think it should be acceptable to talk about the use of steroids just for the fact that people do use them and its all about personal choice. I respect anyone who goes to the gym whether they take or not mainly because steroids aren't the magic supplements they are made out to be. Its like well you only got big because you use them and they forget about all the training, the heavy weights and pain thats still involved.


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## Biker (Apr 8, 2003)

Littleluke said:


> I respect your post stanco but you're one of many people who only know of steroids through other people. the old wrod of mouth "steroids make your willy smaller" or "you'll be dead by the time you're 50". If abused any drug can cause you long term problems. There's a steroid seminar tape in the steroids section. Listen to it, 9 people since 1930 died in relation to steroids. How many people died from smoking related illnesses this year? thousands.
> 
> You're entitled to have an opinion mate and I respect you 100% for saying how you feel.


I'm sure there's a lot more than 9 have died. but often it's not clear what the cause is because of other factors, but I would feel confident in saying more than 9 people have died from steroid related problems, although in many cases it could be years after they have stopped using.


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## Stanco (Jan 7, 2007)

Yeah i agree biker. I keep hearing time and time again about body builders dying at the age of 40-50 years of age! Although i know thats from long term use/Abuse ect...


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

I love it when these debates are on the board as those doing the preaching seem to think that those using steroids are either abusing the drugs or have no common sense and are kidding themselves to the effects....

I particular like guys who have used in the past and now condemn others for their steroid use. 

I have been using steroids for 18yrs and at some points in this time i used too much or stayed on for way to long maybe both at times....now i cannot say how my steroid use will effect me in 20yrs time but then saying this nor can any of you but i am a healthy 36yr old man after 18yrs of use i get check ups regular including my heart and so far the only thing that is out of check is my cholesterol....

I wonder how many guys who smoke or drink on a weekly basis can say the same ??

Now i am not saying it is healthy or unhealthy to take steroids but from my 18yrs of experience i can say that i am in far better shape both body and mind than guys i know who are verging on being Obese who drink and smoke on a weekly basis and i am damn sure more than 9 people have died from smoking/drinking or Obese related diseases maybe that is something to think about the next time you have a kebab at the end of a night out....??


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## Littleluke (Nov 21, 2005)

> I wonder how many guys who smoke or drink on a weekly basis can say the same ??
> 
> Now i am not saying it is healthy or unhealthy to take steroids but from my 18yrs of experience i can say that i am in far better shape both body and mind than guys i know who are verging on being Obese who drink and smoke on a weekly basis and i am damn sure more than 9 people have died from smoking/drinking or Obese related diseases maybe that is something to think about the next time you have a kebab at the end of a night out....??


cracking post Paul.


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## Keyser Soze (Dec 12, 2005)

Ah yes, the perennial chestnut of natural vs needle...

I agree firmly with the thread starter, steroids have no place in bodybuilding except at the extreme levels. I am frequently stunned by a few roiders who take pride in fastidiously monitoring their diets, train weights and cardio intensely, yet scream "I'm healthier than the slobs in the street!" *whilst* injecting substances which come packaged anonymously from underground laboratories in Russia, with no corporate or government agency guarantee of safety.

Bodybuilding is about looking like the pinnacle of health - and it is pretty hard to look healthy for long unless you actually ARE healthy. What's more, there seems to be this ridiculous war between roiders and non roiders...we all make a choice, lift, don't lift, inject, don't inject. It's not my place to tell a juicer to lay off if he isn't a friend or a relation, and he'd better not give me any lectures about only trees growing naturally.  He makes his own choice, and I made my own.

That said, I look forward to the day when science has PROOF - not anecdote, not theory, but PROOF that it has refined the production process of steroids to the point where they are as safe as Evian. When that day comes, I will be waiting, needle in one hand and gold card in the other. Until then, I won't risk the lower doses, the higher doses, nothing.

No needles, no worries.


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## mant01 (Jan 1, 2007)

I'm sure theirs lots of bodybuilders that use die in there 40's and 50's, just like other people who dont use, lol. I know someone who was in his 40's and died just the other day, never touched gear and just really played football instead of going to the gym. People die all the time at all ages its just you hear more about bodybuilders because of the hipe made by steroids. Its just stupid!


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

Keyser Soze said:


> I agree firmly with the thread starter, steroids have no place in bodybuilding except at the extreme levels. I am frequently stunned by a few roiders who take pride in fastidiously monitoring their diets, train weights and cardio intensely, yet scream "I'm healthier than the slobs in the street!" *whilst* injecting substances which come packaged anonymously from underground laboratories in Russia, with no corporate or government agency guarantee of safety.


This is true but i am just as shocked by severely overweight guys who don't seem to realise that one day because they are so fat they will die this is not theory this is truth statistics now prove that the biggest killer in this day and age is Obesity, now i get angry when someone tells me that taking steroids is unhealthy and i should not do it or talk about it when those same guys or overweight and risk their own health because they cannot control themselves when they walk sorry waddle past McDonald's...

Now i have made a choice to use steroids and i stand by my choice just as those who are natural choose not to use steroids and stand by their choice i won't stand by though and be preached to by overweight guys who drink and/or smoke and then seem to think they are healthy 



Keyser Soze said:


> That said, I look forward to the day when science has PROOF - not anecdote, not theory, but PROOF that it has refined the production process of steroids to the point where they are as safe as Evian. When that day comes, I will be waiting, needle in one hand and gold card in the other. Until then, I won't risk the lower doses, the higher doses, nothing.
> 
> No needles, no worries.


With that said i await the day when science has PROOF that eating junk foods and being severely overweight is as safe as Evian. When that day comes, I will be waiting, Burger in one hand and donor kebab in the other. Until then, I won't risk the high saturated amounts ...

Now you can sit their behind your PC and preach to me that because you are natural you are healthy but unless you don't drink/smoke or are not overweight then maybe you should get your house in order before preaching to others.....

rant over


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## Bulldozer (Nov 24, 2006)

Bottom line is, we are all adults and we make our own decisions.

I think its sad when youngsters are on gear, but this board and as far as i know all others obviously strongly discourage this.

There are certainly a lot of bigger problems out there to worry about than steroids.

Its a personal choice and no body should be judgeing anybody who uses gear, IMO.

(By the way im a natty and never intend to take steroids)


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

Well said


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## Keyser Soze (Dec 12, 2005)

Pscarb said:


> This is true but i am just as shocked by severely overweight guys who don't seem to realise that one day because they are so fat they will die this is not theory this is truth statistics now prove that the biggest killer in this day and age is Obesity, now i get angry when someone tells me that taking steroids is unhealthy and i should not do it or talk about it when those same guys or overweight and risk their own health because they cannot control themselves when they walk sorry waddle past McDonald's......


I wouldn't mind seeing those stats you speak of - I don't say that to challenge, I am interested in the top 10 causes of natural death, so I can delay my own as long as possible!!



> With that said i await the day when science has PROOF that eating junk foods and being severely overweight is as safe as Evian. When that day comes, I will be waiting, Burger in one hand and donor kebab in the other. Until then, I won't risk the high saturated amounts ...


They say "Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery" - and I am flattered!



> Now you can sit their behind your PC and preach to me that because you are natural you are healthy but unless you don't drink/smoke or are not overweight then maybe you should get your house in order before preaching to others.....


I think we all need to get our houses in order. I am (relatively) fat and thus unhealthy. You insert your body with chemicals that WILL cause harm, of whatever severity, in the longer term, and are thus also unhealthy. Incidentally, I don't smoke, but do drink (not to binge amounts though).

Bodybuilding, I'm certain we both agree, entails sacrifice; but the question becomes, "How far do YOU want to risk your health in your old age to satisfy your desire to get fcuking huge in your youth?"

If a group of quacks got up on a medical conference, and produced infallible proof that taking Dianodex (or whatever) did nothing worse to you at age 75 than make you get up to pee once more at night than otherwise, that'd be a small price to pay for SOME people; only thing is, nobody can say; thousands of BB'ers around the world are being monitored as guinea pigs by their GP's in a big, impromptu study. Now of course I wish them the best of health, but as for myself, I don't want want to join the club now only to discover, in 2035, my poor kidney function wets the bed every night along with all of the rest who took the modern stuff. I know a FEW famous BB'ers have been juicing since the 60's with mixed results in their older age, but that's not a large enough case study and again, I don't want to be a guinea pig. I hope you see where I'm coming from on this.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned yet - I don't like the LOOK of muscle that's been juiced, I can often tell the difference and I'm sure so can a lot of others. So even if steroids were made safe, unless they got rid of the unnatural look, I wouldn't use. I've been getting a couple of "Geez, you're fcuking massive!!" comments in the last few weeks, so I'm happy with my natural progress (although I wish they'd said "slimmer"!).

Now I'm not on a crusade to change minds, just to speak mine. People do what people want to do, regardless of advice, and you and I do too. I respect difference, but I want to explain MY decision.


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## leanman (May 29, 2003)

Keyser how much do you weigh if you don't mind me asking??


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## Keyser Soze (Dec 12, 2005)

leanman said:


> Keyser how much do you weigh if you don't mind me asking??


Hi mate, I don't mind you asking but I don't see the relevance of the question.

I'm about 17stones, about 3 stones of flab to be cut, but I don't go by weight, but by tape measurement. BP and cholesterol check out ok, but I agree the 3 stones MUST be ditched.


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## dezikrate (Jul 18, 2006)

That said, I look forward to the day when science has PROOF - not anecdote, not theory, but PROOF that it has refined the production process of steroids to the point where they are as safe as Evian. When that day comes, I will be waiting, needle in one hand and gold card in the other. Until then, I won't risk the lower doses, the higher doses, nothing.

No needles, no worries.

__________________

Tis better to die young, crushed by a 200kg bench bar, unspotted and unassisted, than to grow old and die unnoticed, undrooled over by women, and unrespected by men, in an armchair in an old folks home....

Looking at your final paragraph, keyser...have you been using your gold card????


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

i don't see it as a challenge as it is very easy to obtain...

The leading killers of women may surprise you. These top 10 came from the 2002 Center for Disease Control report on mortality.

*1) Heart Disease*

Heart disease is responsible for 488,946 deaths in women - more than all forms of cancer combined. http://womensissues.about.com/od/cardiovasculardisease/]is the most significant health concern for women in the U.S. today, but according to the American Heart Association, only 13 percent of women know that heart disease is a major threat to their health.

To minimize your risk:


Don't smoke

Limit intake of alcohol

Exercise regularly

Control high blood pressure, diabetes and high cholesterol

*2) Stroke (Cerebrovascular Disease)*

Over 100,000 women died of stroke - that's almost twice as many deaths as men. Stroke is one of the leading causes of disability in America.

To minimize your risk:


Don't smoke


*Limit saturated fats*

Exercise regularly

Control high blood pressure and high cholesterol

*3) Lung Cancer*

The most common cause of cancer death in U.S. women is lung cancer. It's estimated that more than 73,000 women in the United States will die of lung cancer in 2005, with 90 percent of these deaths linked to cigarette smoking.

To minimize your risk:


Don't smoke

Get regular screenings

*4) Chronic Lower Respiratory Diseases*

These include emphysema, asthma and other lung conditions and killed 64,103 women.

To minimize your risk:


Don't smoke

*5) Alzheimer's Disease*

This memory-stealing disease is the cause of death for 41,877 women and kills two-and-a-half times the amount of women as it does men.

*6) Breast Cancer*

Breast cancer is the second-leading cause of cancer death in U.S. women with 41,514 deaths. It's estimated that more than 211,000 women will be diagnosed with breast cancer in 2005.

To minimize your risk:


Get regular screenings

*7) Diabetes*

Diabetes affects the way your body uses blood sugar and is a condition approximately 18 million people in the US have. It claimed 38,948 women. Type II diabetes is the most common, and is often preventable.

To minimize your risk:



*Maintain a healthy weight*


*Eat healthfully*

Exercise regularly

*8) Accidents*

Accidents are the number 8 killer of women in America. In 2002, 37,485 women had accidental deaths, almost 40% of which were motor vehicle accidents. Accidental falls killed almost 8,000 women.

*9) Influenza and Pneumonia*

These two combined were the cause of death for 36,763 women.

To minimize your risk:


Get an annual flu shot

*10) Colon Cancer*

Colon cancer, the third leading cause of cancer deaths for women and the 10th leading cause overall, claimed almost 30,000 women.

To minimize your risk:



*Maintain a healthy weight*


*Eat healthfully*

Exercise regularly

Don't smoke

(sources: Center for Disease Control, Mayo Clinic)

One thing is clear, though: You don't have to become a statistic. By recognizing the leading threats to your life, you can take steps to reduce your risks.

*For MEN*

*No. 1 - Heart disease*

In 2002, 429,682 men died of heart disease, the leading cause of death in both sexes. Because men usually develop heart disease 10 to 15 years earlier than women do, they're more likely to die of it in the prime of life. About one-fourth of all heart-disease-related deaths occur in men ages 35 to 65. Only after age 80 do men and women have an equal risk of developing heart disease.

You can reduce your risk of heart disease by making healthier lifestyle choices and getting appropriate treatment for other conditions that can damage your heart, such as high cholesterol, diabetes and high blood pressure. Some preventive measures you can take:


Don't smoke or use other tobacco products.


*Eat a varied diet, rich in fruits, vegetables, and low-fat foods*.


*Maintain a healthy weight*.

Get at least 30 minutes of exercise most days of the week.

Keep your cholesterol levels in normal ranges.

Control your blood sugar if you have diabetes.

Control your blood pressure.

Talk to your doctor about a low daily dose of aspirin.

*No. 2 - Cancer*

In 2002, 288,768 men died of cancer, the second-leading cause of death for both sexes. Lung cancer - 90 percent of it caused by cigarette smoking - is the most common cause of cancer death in both sexes. In 2002, it killed 90,171 men.

Prostate cancer and colorectal cancer - both of which are associated with a high-fat diet - are the second- and third-leading causes of cancer death in men. In 2002, they claimed 30,466 and 28,501 men's lives, respectively.

Some preventive measures you can take:


Don't smoke or use other tobacco products.


*Eat a varied diet, rich in fruits, vegetables and low-fat foods. *


*Maintain a healthy weight. *

Get at least 30 minutes of exercise most days of the week.

Limit your exposure to sun and use sunscreen.

Drink alcohol only in moderation, if at all.

Be aware of potential cancer-causing substances (carcinogens) in your home and workplace, and take steps to reduce your exposure to these substances.

Have regular preventive health screenings.

Know your family medical history and review it with your doctor.

*No. 3 - Accidents (unintentional injuries)*

In 2002, accidents killed 69,257 men. Motor vehicle crashes were the leading cause. More than twice as many men (31,064) as women (14,316) died in traffic accidents. Male drivers involved in such accidents were almost twice as likely as female drivers to be intoxicated. To reduce your chances of a fatal crash:


Use your seat belt.

Keep your speed down.

Don't drive while sleepy or under the influence of drugs or alcohol.

Poisoning was the second-leading cause of fatal injury to men. In 2002, 12,059 men died of poisoning. In comparison, 5,491 women died of poisoning that year. To reduce your risk of poisoning:


Place carbon monoxide and smoke detectors near bedrooms in your house.

Have fuel-burning appliances inspected each year.

Store household products in their original containers.

Read and follow label instructions for household products.

Turn on a light when giving or taking medicine and follow label instructions.

Ventilate areas in which you use chemical products.

Post the poison control number, (800) 222-1222, by each telephone in your home.

Falls and drowning were the third- and fourth-leading causes of fatal injury to men. In 2002, falls caused 8,463 deaths among men, compared with 7,794 deaths among women. Drowning accounted for 2,761 deaths among men and 686 deaths among women.

Common-sense precautions such as using a safety ladder, placing nonskid mats in showers and tubs, and never swimming alone in a large or unfamiliar body of water can reduce the risks.

Workplace accidents - which include some vehicle crashes, poisonings, falls and drownings - are a significant cause of fatal injury to men, partly because men are concentrated in dangerous occupations such as agriculture, mining and construction. Although men hold 53.7 percent of all American jobs, they account for 92 percent of workplace fatalities. In 2002, workplace injuries killed 5,081 men and 443 women.

*No. 4 - Stroke*

In 2002, 62,622 men died of stroke. Although stroke occurs in equal proportions of men and women, men have better chances of surviving than women do. You can't control some stroke risks, such as family history, age and race, but you can control the leading cause - high blood pressure - as well as contributing factors such as smoking and diabetes.

Additional preventive measures:


Lower your intake of cholesterol and saturated fat.

Don't smoke.

Control diabetes.


*Maintain a healthy weight*.

Get at least 30 minutes of exercise most days of the week.

Manage stress.

Limit alcohol consumption.

Talk with your doctor about taking a daily dose of aspirin.

*No. 5 - Chronic obstructive pulmonary disease (COPD)*

In 2002, 60,713 men died of chronic obstructive pulmonary disease (COPD), a group of chronic lung conditions that includes emphysema and chronic bronchitis. It's strongly associated with lung cancer, the leading cause of cancer deaths among men. The main cause is smoking. Men who smoke are 12 times as likely to die of COPD as are men who've never smoked.

Some preventive measures you can take:


Don't smoke.

Avoid secondhand smoke.

Minimize exposure to workplace chemicals.

*No. 6 - Diabetes*

In 2002, 34,301 men died of diabetes, a disease that affects the way the body uses blood sugar (glucose). Excess body fat, especially around the middle, is an important risk factor for diabetes. About 80 percent of people who have the disease are either overweight or obese.

The diabetes complications most likely to be fatal are heart disease and stroke, which occur at two to four times the average rate in people with diabetes. Men with diabetes haven't benefited as much from recent advances in heart disease treatment as have men without diabetes. During the past 30 years, deaths from heart disease have fallen 36 percent in men without diabetes, as compared with only 13 percent in men who have diabetes.

An estimated one-third of men with the most common form of diabetes don't know they have it. Many are unaware of the disease until they develop complications such as impotence (erectile dysfunction), nerve damage causing pain or loss of sensation in the hands or feet, vision loss or kidney disease.

Some preventive measures you can take:



*Maintain a healthy weight*.


*Eat a varied diet, rich in fruits, vegetables and low-fat foods*.

Get at least 30 minutes of exercise most days of the week.

Get your fasting blood sugar level checked periodically.

Know your family's diabetes history and discuss it with your doctor.

*No. 7 - Pneumonia and influenza*

In 2002, 28,918 men died of pneumonia and influenza. These lung infections are especially life-threatening to people whose lungs have already been damaged by COPD, asthma or smoking. The risk of death from pneumonia or influenza is also higher among people with heart disease, diabetes or a weakened immune system due to AIDS or immunosuppressive drugs.

You can reduce your risk of complications and death from pneumonia and influenza by getting immunized. A yearly flu shot is up to 90 percent effective in preventing influenza in healthy adults. The pneumococcal vaccine can reduce the risk of getting pneumonia by more than half.

*No. 8 - Suicide*

In 2002, 25,409 men committed suicide. Men commit suicide four times as often as women do, partly because they're more likely to use deadlier means - such as firearms - when they set out to take their own lives. Depression - which is estimated to affect 7 percent of men in any given year - is an important risk factor for suicide. But male depression may be underdiagnosed, partly because men are less likely than women are to seek treatment for it. In addition, men don't always develop standard symptoms such as sadness, worthlessness and excessive guilt. Instead, they may be more likely to complain of fatigue, irritability, sleep disturbances and loss of interest in work or hobbies. Substance abuse - which is more common in men - can mask depression and make it more difficult to diagnose.

People at risk of suicide may:


Be depressed, moody, socially withdrawn or aggressive

Have suffered a recent life crisis

Show changes in personality

Feel worthless

Abuse alcohol or drugs

Have frequent thoughts about death

Talk about death and self-destruction

If you find yourself avoiding others, feeling hostile and worthless, thinking about death and using alcohol and drugs to numb your pain, talk with your doctor. In an urgent situation, an emergency room or crisis center can help. Friends or family members may be the first to notice your uncharacteristic behavior. Take their advice and seek help.

*No. 9 - Kidney disease*

Kidney failure, most often a complication of diabetes or high blood pressure, took the lives of 19,695 men in 2002. Control of diabetes and high blood pressure can prevent or slow the progression of kidney disease. Another cause of kidney failure is overuse of medications such as aspirin and ibuprofen (Advil, Motrin, others) that are toxic to the kidneys.

Some preventive measures you can take:


Drink plenty of fluids.

Exercise regularly.


*Maintain your proper weight*.

Don't smoke.

Get checked regularly for diabetes and high blood pressure.

Limit your use of over-the-counter pain relievers.

Take all medications only as directed.

*No. 10 - Chronic liver disease and cirrhosis*

In 2002, 17,401 men died of chronic liver disease and cirrhosis. The leading cause is alcoholism, which takes a heavy toll on men in general. Men account for more than 70 percent of the 75,000 alcohol-attributable deaths that occur each year in the United States. Other leading causes of chronic liver disease and cirrhosis include hepatitis B and C and certain inherited diseases such as hemochromatosis, in which abnormal amounts of iron accumulate in the liver. Nonalcoholic fatty liver disease, which is associated with obesity, also sometimes leads to cirrhosis.

Some preventive measures you can take:


Don't drink alcohol to excess.

Take precautions when using possibly hazardous chemicals.

Practice safe sex.


*Don't inject street drugs*.

Take medications only as directed.

Get a hepatitis B vaccination if you're at risk.

If you develop viral hepatitis, remain under the care of your doctor until you've recovered.


*Maintain a healthy weight*.

This took me 5 seconds to get hold of and here you can see that most of the common killers in todays world for both men and women are either related to smoking, drinking or being overweight....i can only find one cause which is highlighted in red where they have identified street drugs and i suppose you could class this as steroids...

Keysor now this is all mute as you are arguing that taking steroids are unhealthy and as i have said i am not saying that they are the most health consiuse thing you can do but i would say that you being 36lbs at least of fat(your own admission) over your normall weight is far more unhealthy than me taking 1 g of test per week..


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## Bulldozer (Nov 24, 2006)

Nothing on that list really surprised me tbh!

Thanks for the rep points pscarb


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## Keyser Soze (Dec 12, 2005)

Pscarb said:


> i don't see it as a challenge as it is very easy to obtain...


I meant that my asking for stats I wasn't casting doubts on your knowledge. But that was still very interesting reading, I'll be going over it more thoroughly later.



> This took me 5 seconds to get hold of and here you can see that most of the common killers in todays world for both men and women are either related to smoking, drinking or being overweight....i can only find one cause which is highlighted in red where they have identified street drugs and i suppose you could class this as steroids...


Suppose so, except roiders aren't addicts (is it possible to develop an addiction to roids? I don't know).



> Keysor now this is all mute as you are arguing that taking steroids are unhealthy and as i have said i am not saying that they are the most health consiuse thing you can do but i would say that you being 36lbs at least of fat(your own admission) over your normall weight is far more unhealthy than me taking 1 g of test per week..


Could well be - but we won't know one way or the other for another 3 decades or so. Though I don't plan on being fat for too much longer (where have you all seen THAT old claim made before?!?!?!?)

Anyway, this has been a good chat mate, I always like having intelligent discussions with people of opposing viewpoints, and this certainly qualifies. Rep point on the way for that list.

Keyser.


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

I would say that steroids are not addictive but in some cases the effects they have ie muscle pumps, muscle etc etc are but the actuall drug is not...


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## Jock (Apr 8, 2003)

I think in the past they have been described as psychologically rather than phsiologically addictive.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

You guys do know testosterone is perscribed to those that need to supplement it right?

There is a medical reason for this.

Being a little overweight has no berring on mortality, in fact being too lean has more health conciquences that being a little overweight.

They are finding this out and have just heard this recently.


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## Peg (Feb 9, 2006)

Great discussion on a volatile topic.

*Why is more muscle considered physically fit?*

Now, it is a given here that obese is not healthy, but bean pole thin is not healthy either.... or is it?

*
What are the factors that determine the fitness and health of a body?*

There are many multilayered addictions "habits" hidden in many different areas of our lives.

Are all addictions bad?

The body is programmed to take care of itself in all its complexity.

What are the pychological and physical factors that affect the body's ability to take care of itself?

One factor is diet:

If we do not provide the proper nutrients, we create a deficit, and the body must steal from other areas of the body to compensate for that deficit.

Doctors use medical steroids to to fight arthritis and inflammatory diseases to help people become healthy. They are providing the body with what it cannot make at the time because the adrenals are too exhausted.

Steroid shots

Are these drugs adverse to the body?

In some regards they are as they are overstressing the adrenals, but to the person who is relieved of the arthritic pain, the steroids are a godsend.

Can those people overcome their arthritis with a better diet?

Studies say they can...

The challenge is being consistent and revamping the diet completely and being able to wait until the body can repair itself.

Habits are hard to break once they are developed... that includes both good and bad habits.

Each person must determine for themselves what is good or bad for their own mental health. The body follows the mind.

Can the body build enough muscle for bodybuilding competitions without steroids?

To do so, each person must find the proper balance between diet and intensity of stress on the muscles to promote a need for the body to create more muscles. Each person must be patient and learn to listen to the body. Each person will have his/her own unique requirements.

I say the biggest detriment to good health is the stress we put on our lives and how we deal with it.

I think many diseases are stress related, the stress producing a need for nutrients that are found deficient in the diet and so the body must function on less than optimum, much like a car running on gas with sugar poured into it or with less than minimal octane. Eventually you will have engine trouble, poor performance, dirty carburetor and spark plugs, fuel lines plogged, etc...


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## SD (Sep 3, 2004)

Pscarb said:


> *No. 10 - Chronic liver disease and cirrhosis*
> 
> In 2002, 17,401 men died of chronic liver disease and cirrhosis. The leading cause is alcoholism, which takes a heavy toll on men in general. Men account for more than 70 percent of the 75,000 alcohol-attributable deaths that occur each year in the United States. Other leading causes of chronic liver disease and cirrhosis include hepatitis B and C and certain inherited diseases such as hemochromatosis, in which abnormal amounts of iron accumulate in the liver. Nonalcoholic fatty liver disease, which is associated with obesity, also sometimes leads to cirrhosis.
> 
> ...


I think the only reason injecting street drugs is on there Paul, is that dirty needles can spread Hepatitus, a liver disease for those that don't know.

As such it only applies to those daft enough to share a pin, to my knowledge that would apply to no-one here, I hope!

SD


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## squatty (Jun 23, 2006)

My intitial response to the question "why is steroid use so accepted here" was "probably because it it so unaccepted everywhere else". I think its great to be able to come onto a forum and learn something but not be judged at the same time. How many of us can talk about our gear use with friends and family. Outside of people i train with, there are probably two people i feel comfortable discussing it with

Whilst i agree with all thats been written about health risks, not only from steroids but all the other activities we could chose to do, I believe that genetic factors play a big part in health problems

There has been a thread here recently from someone who suspcts he may have developed gyno after his first cycle. I gather his pct protocol was sound, so the question for me is why did he develop it when lots of other people following the same protocol havent. It may be because he is gentically prone to it

In my case,many members of my family have developed bad arthritis by their mid-fifties. Already I can see that I am developing it which will seriously curtail my training.Obviously im not happy about it but im lumbered with it gentically

At the end of the day, i think we just live our lives, doing what we do.


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## Biker (Apr 8, 2003)

Pscarb said:


> I love it when these debates are on the board as those doing the preaching seem to think that those using steroids are either abusing the drugs or have no common sense and are kidding themselves to the effects....
> 
> I particular like guys who have used in the past and now condemn others for their steroid use.


I wouldn't condemn people for using steroids but I'm not going to sugar coat them as not causing problems for people because they do, for lots of people imho. It's personal choice if those risks are worth it to you as an individual or not, my biggest concern is that so many young people who are 10 stone turn to them, we all know that most at that age don't think or care about being old and what problems it may cause at a later stage.

I know I won't use them again personally but I don't tell other people not to, still regularly give people advice on how to use them. But if people do ask me why I don't use any more I am going to tell them why.


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## TypeR (May 28, 2004)

and just out of intrest why is that biker?

Ben


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## ah24 (Jun 25, 2006)

He explained, on the top of page 3 TypeR

Too intense for too long


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## SD (Sep 3, 2004)

Biker said:


> A lot of guys should go and get a chest xray and see just how enlarged their heart is, I have no heart problems but my heart is a lot bigger than it should be, which may cause problems in later life.
> 
> Had some serious recovery problems, after the false recovered feeling that a clomid course gives you finally wears off.


I have had patients who due to excessive cardio exercise (Hypertrophic Cardiomyopathy) had enlarged hearts, so this condition is not endemic to just AAS users. These guys however were told that if they stopped exercise it would go back to a normal size eventually, I am sure it would be the same for you Biker, although looking at the evidence in the link I posted, it would appear there is no cure. In theory it would be like any other muscle,'use it or lose it'? What did your Doctors say?

Also what did you mean by your last statement about Clomid mate?

SD


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## HIGHLANDER1436114513 (Apr 11, 2006)

For the record I have been on both sides of the fence on this very interesting debate,ie used and not used.I think personnel choice is the name of the game aslong as it is a well investigated one.However for all the evidence brought forward by one party or another their are the examples of those you go against the grain,the heavy smoker/drinker who lived to a ripe old age,the health fanatic who died on the treadmill and obviously their will be the flip side of both groups also.

Unless you have the blue print for your own life and know when the grim reaper is a calling the whole game seems to be a lottery you can only do what you consider healthy for yourself in diet,exercise and supplementation.ULTIMATELY someone else is holding all the cards,live each day to the fullest to be the best you can be in all walks of life,but above all enjoy yourself if someone is smiling down on us we all might just get that chance to beat that PB in the gym of life tomorrow.

Highlander:smoke:


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## megatron (Apr 21, 2004)

On the back of this debate, whats with the eyebrow ridges? is that AAS or HGH causing that?


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## Tinytom (Sep 16, 2005)

Could be GH - Acromenagly sides

However I'm sure his heads been busted up a few times with a chair so that probably has something to do with it lmao.


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## Biker (Apr 8, 2003)

SportDr said:


> In theory it would be like any other muscle,'use it or lose it'? What did your Doctors say?
> 
> Also what did you mean by your last statement about Clomid mate?
> 
> SD


it's my understanding that increased heart size from AS use the heart tends to stay too large.

Clomid, well clomid makes people feel recovered, so they start another cycle again, but in reality often if they went a bit longer 'off' they would discover that they weren't even close to being fully recovered as the 'false' recovered feeling given by clomid will disappear and you will find real true full recovery will often be 18+ months and will have envolved you running clomid cycles several times.


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## Harry1436114491 (Oct 8, 2003)

Pscarb said:


> Why ??


Because in general, most guy's who join these boards look up to the Mods for inspiration and encouragment and a goal to aspire to.

While most Mods on here either use juice or have done in the past and have exceptional physics, maybe a good natural Mod would give "newbies" something to aspire to without thinking the only way they are going to get big is with juice.

Not realy for any other reason.


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

now i am ill at the moment so have not got the time to answer all the replies to my post's/////

Harry - MOD's are chosen for their overall knowledge of the bodybuilding/weightlifting world this includes Nutrition, training, and in some cases AAS i do not know of one MOD on this board that would tell anyone that the best route is to use steroids and most can and have done helped out natural athletes achieve success.

this topic although a good one raises it's head every other month and that is why i get so passionate about it ....

Steroid use is a personal choice on this board we (MOD's) all encourage guys to use the natural route first before they make the step up to the dark-side so to speak but once a member has posted up that they have bought the gear and want to know the best way to use it it is a responsible reply to help them the best we can why should we condemn them??

Now most who condemn the use of steroids form 2 categories

1 - *The former user:* who abused the gear and now they cannot use steroids feel the need to preach that no one should

2 - *the natural guy:* has chosen not to use steroids to achieve his goals but does not fully understand them either most feel that using steroids is the easy way and condemn any one who makes the choice to use them.

Guys you all seem to dodge the question about other health risk's when this topic comes up claiming that it is not on topic....but i think those who are fat and i don't mean slightly chubby around the waste i mean really fat are unhealthy, i also feel that everyone who smoke are way ahead of steroid users for hiding their head in the sand concerning the health risks hell they even tell you on the box you can die.....do i come on here and try to chastise them no because it is their own personal choice to either eat junk foods or not follow a decent eating regime or to smoke......

Choices are an individual thing do not condemn the individual for not making the same choices as you....


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## ah24 (Jun 25, 2006)

Repped..

Good post paul, the last sentance is clever by the way


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## Biker (Apr 8, 2003)

Pscarb said:


> Now most who condemn the use of steroids form 2 categories
> 
> 1 - *The former user:* who abused the gear and now they cannot use steroids feel the need to preach that no one should
> 
> ...


don't agree there is no reason as such that I couldn't use steroids if I wanted. Lets face it my only medical reason I could possible give would be that my heart is a bit enlarged, unless every steroids user has had a chest x-rayed or scanned they very possibly are in the same boat anyhow and using, only difference is they don't know.

I don't feel the want or need to use them anymore as personally I couldn't be ****d going through the pain of proper recovery again that was the bit that ****ed me off most about it tbh. anyhow getting too close to 40 and recovery is just going to get more and more difficult


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## Tinytom (Sep 16, 2005)

Biker said:


> I don't feel the want or need to use them anymore as personally I couldn't be ****d going through the pain of proper recovery again that was the bit that ****ed me off most about it tbh. anyhow getting too close to 40 and recovery is just going to get more and more difficult


This is constantly in my thoughts - when will I stop using? the obvious answer is when I stop competing as I only started using because I wanted to compete.

However I dont know what sort of recovery problems I may have at the time I decide to do this, at the moment competing is what I'm about and this means fairly heavy usage which I accept the consequences of.

Cross that bridge when we come to it I suppose.


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## Biker (Apr 8, 2003)

Tinytom said:


> This is constantly in my thoughts - when will I stop using? the obvious answer is when I stop competing as I only started using because I wanted to compete.
> 
> However I dont know what sort of recovery problems I may have at the time I decide to do this, at the moment competing is what I'm about and this means fairly heavy usage which I accept the consequences of.
> 
> Cross that bridge when we come to it I suppose.


2 years mate, that's how long it took me to recover fully and it was fecking awful tbh!

Spoken to a few other guys in their 30s who gave it up also and all had regular tests done etc. and it would appear at least 18 months before full recovery is pretty common.


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## Harry1436114491 (Oct 8, 2003)

Pscarb said:


> Harry - MOD's are chosen for their overall knowledge of the bodybuilding/weightlifting world this includes Nutrition, training, and in some cases AAS i do not know of one MOD on this board that would tell anyone that the best route is to use steroids and most can and have done helped out natural athletes achieve success.


Paul I agree 150% with you, it's not the point I was trying to make though.

What I was trying to say is that if we had a Natural Mod with a good physique then people could see just what they can do well before the use of AAS. Really just someone to champion the cause as it was.


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

Biker said:


> don't agree there is no reason as such that I couldn't use steroids if I wanted. Lets face it my only medical reason I could possible give would be that my heart is a bit enlarged, unless every steroids user has had a chest x-rayed or scanned they very possibly are in the same boat anyhow and using, only difference is they don't know.
> 
> I don't feel the want or need to use them anymore as personally I couldn't be ****d going through the pain of proper recovery again that was the bit that ****ed me off most about it tbh. anyhow getting too close to 40 and recovery is just going to get more and more difficult


for some reason Biker you seem to think i am having a go at you which i am not but in my experiance this is true from former users who have abused gear which was mostly through lack of knowledge...


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## Tinytom (Sep 16, 2005)

well look at the response Lee Williams got when he posted up here.

Everyone said he used gear etc etc. I've actually met Lee and he is a top guy but doesn't look as massive in the flesh as he does in the photos. This is due to the deception of a stage physique in a photo.

I think any Natural Mod on here would get a lot of sniping from people saying they used etc. Plus the Natural Scene is much more of a cult than the gear world. The natural competitive bbers tend to stick within the natural forums because they're such a close knit group. This isn't a set in stone rule just something I've noticed over the forums. I know that Fivos and Jon Bibb post here sometimes but they are more active over on Jay Rickaby's forum on UKM.com


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## ah24 (Jun 25, 2006)

When you say 'recover' what do you mean? Sounds stupid but i thought

PCT was the recovery phase lol?


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## megatron (Apr 21, 2004)

I think he means when your natural test production is back to normal.


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## Biker (Apr 8, 2003)

megatron said:


> I think he means when your natural test production is back to normal.


correct which is a lot longer than a few weeks of PCT which often temporarily makes you appear recovered


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

agreed but "back to normal" can only be measured by blood test's not by how big your nuts feel...

I have my test and FSH levels from before my course started so have a baseline to achieve, this is the only way you can be certain


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Biker said:


> I wouldn't condemn people for using steroids but I'm not going to sugar coat them as not causing problems for people because they do, for lots of people imho. It's personal choice if those risks are worth it to you as an individual or not, my biggest concern is that so many young people who are 10 stone turn to them, we all know that most at that age don't think or care about being old and what problems it may cause at a later stage.
> 
> I know I won't use them again personally but I don't tell other people not to, still regularly give people advice on how to use them. But if people do ask me why I don't use any more I am going to tell them why.


Fantastic post Biker, could not have said it better.



Biker said:


> I don't feel the want or need to use them anymore as personally I couldn't be ****d going through the pain of proper recovery again that was the bit that ****ed me off most about it tbh. anyhow getting too close to 40 and recovery is just going to get more and more difficult


I hear ya on the age and recovery deal here.

I think I am going to step out of the gear scene.

I am interested in HGH tho, but gear is kind of a pain in the ass in the long run, literally and figuritivly.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

18 months, isnt that the amount of time for full cellular turnover of the entire body?


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## shauno (Aug 26, 2007)

A few things ive noticed.

- on the face of it steroid use is discouraged to people younger than 21yo on this and other forums, however (im not naming names) when they actually post on the forum they have done/want to use its kinda like an internet pat on the back /welcome to the club type thing.

- I notice some steroid users can get very defensive about steroid use. perfect example of this was shaunmc's thread titled 'why do naturals have to state they are naturals'. have a read and put yourself in a non-biased mindset.

steroid use isnt a normal thing to do all things considered, it fascinates me when people argue that 'i dont do reccy drugs and my diet is spot on and healthy' fair do's but steroids are reccy drugs. im an occasional reccy drug user but im not ignorant to possible damage it may cause, i enjoy it but im not going to try and justify it to anyone.

- Also worth noting that a hell of alot of traffic this site generates will be from AAS users so in reference to the original question its kinda 'to be expected'.


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## Tall (Aug 14, 2007)

^^^ Old thread...


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

shauno said:


> steroid use isnt a normal thing to do all things considered, it fascinates me when people argue that 'i dont do reccy drugs and my diet is spot on and healthy' fair do's but steroids are reccy drugs. im an occasional reccy drug user but im not ignorant to possible damage it may cause, i enjoy it but im not going to try and justify it to anyone..


well i have yet to see an E or a line of charlie be used to help a heart attack victim recover yet steroids are used in the feild of medicine so you cannot compare the two plus if you look at national figures reccy drugs like charlie and E are accosiated with more health issues and social disfunction that steroids are.....

you say you are not ignorant to the damage it causes yet you do it? steroids can cause health issues and many are not ignorant to that either i and many others have bloods and ECG's carried out to make sure we are healthy when was the last medical check you had done to see the harm your drugs do?



shauno said:


> - Also worth noting that a hell of alot of traffic this site generates will be from AAS users so in reference to the original question its kinda 'to be expected'.


the traffic generated is because the knowledge is out there to use these drugs safely not seen that many boards dishing out safety info on your drugs


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## dollysprint (Sep 21, 2008)

it's also worth pointing out that it's not about cheating to make it easier, if you want to go above a certain size, roids are THE ONLY way to go, as the body will only reach a certain size before stopping, as a massive muscle-bound body is innefficient, and nature knows this.

so if you want to go above your natural limit, it isnt an easier way, it's the only way


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## Magic Torch (May 30, 2005)

shauno said:


> it fascinates me when people argue that 'i dont do reccy drugs and my diet is spot on and healthy' fair do's but steroids are reccy drugs. im an occasional reccy drug user but im not ignorant to possible damage it may cause, i enjoy it but im not going to try and justify it to anyone.


What is wrong with the argument "i dont do reccy drugs and my diet is spot on and healthy" ? Its a sensible statement which is a good point, how are steriod 'reccy' drugs? They are not taken to 'escape reality' and are used - if used properly, for a specific reason e.g. recuperation, or increased synthesis.... So why do people need to justify steriod use? And why do you think that people are ignorant to the damages it 'can' cause? Look through the AAS forum and every post about gear use will include a reference to ancillary drugs by a senior member/mod. Thats being responsible and researching the damage it can cause not ignorance.

I dont see any drug forums with smack heads, weekend ravers swapping ideas on how to deal with the side effects of reccy drugs.


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## pyrowill (May 19, 2007)

SportDr said:


> I actually agree with the aboe statement when applied to many of this years new joiners to the board, but that is why the moderators and others with more experience, try to steer noobs away from AAS and onto a path of natural health. If people insist they are going to use AAS regardless of our warnings, then we advice them how to do it safely, taking as many precautions as possible, read the numerous PCT threads, supplements threads in particular my vitamin thread
> 
> SD


I agree with SD here. I'm a big member on a fire spinners forum. We don't exactly condone fire breathing since it can very easily be very bad for you if done wrong. We get many members who just want to do it cos it looks cool, don't do the research and end up with burns or much worse. We do however realise that it will go on, so if someone offers us advice, we would much rather give our best advice and hope they learn from it, including safety, rather than say Just don't do it, and then they go do it anyway and hurt themselves. I see it the same with this forum. I personally don't think I would ever take steroids, that is my choice, others chose to, that is their choice, and at least this board, unlike others, knows that people will do it and so will offer information and safety guidelines.

Do you think if a board doesn't talk about steroid use, the members wouldnt use it. I am very happy that this board can offer this information, through articles and member advice.

Will


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## Jux (Jul 23, 2008)

I personally don't do them myself...yet .If done sensibly steroids are a god-send.

Dianabol's used in the treatment of wasting diseases like AIDS... and shows good effect.

Not being a d!ck or anything but when you say steroids arent sensible and/or natural, you don't have a leg to stand on, you do recreational drugs yourself.


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## shauno (Aug 26, 2007)

Pscarb said:


> *well i have yet to see an E or a line of charlie be used to help a heart attack victim recover yet steroids are used in the feild of medicine so you cannot compare the two plus if you look at national figures reccy drugs like charlie and E are accosiated with more health issues and social disfunction that steroids are....*.
> 
> you say you are not ignorant to the damage it causes yet you do it? steroids can cause health issues and many are not ignorant to that either i and many others have bloods and ECG's carried out to make sure we are healthy when was the last medical check you had done to see the harm your drugs do?
> 
> the traffic generated is because the knowledge is out there to use these drugs safely not seen that many boards dishing out safety info on your drugs


to be fair mate opiates such as morphine are used a hell of a lot in hospitals as pain killers. opiate = herion so there is a flaw to the argument in bold.

on the flipside you can argue that bodybuilders shouldnt use Insulin etc these drugs are intended to treat diabetics

I havnt had any blood tests mate. And i am not ignorant to damage reccy drugs may have caused me, but although you have had blood test etc do you honestly feel that your 18 years + of use has had no negative effects?

there are forums, believe it or not regarding reccy drugs some of which go into alot of detail. but then this negates my point i dont try and justify it, i find it enjoyable, i know its wrong but it is what it is.

Would you consider yourself a steroid abuser or a steroid user? seeings as your steroid use is not prescription from a doctor....


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## strongasanox (Mar 14, 2008)

to be fair extacy is used to treat dontnormalyliketodancelikeacnutdisorder

and it does what it says on the tin aswell, many of times ive been out dancing like a cnut


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

shauno said:


> to be fair mate opiates such as morphine are used a hell of a lot in hospitals as pain killers. opiate = herion so there is a flaw to the argument in bold.....


if you want to go into details Heroin has been chemically altered so although it is part of the opiate family it is not the same thing yet when they give deca to burn victims or test to heart attack victims it is in the same form we use so my point is not flawed....but hey think what you want mate you still cannot compare heroin to AAS



shauno said:


> on the flipside you can argue that bodybuilders shouldnt use Insulin etc these drugs are intended to treat diabetics....


Why not it is a natural occurring peptide not so sure i saw any reccy drugs being produced naturally though ??



shauno said:


> I havnt had any blood tests mate. And i am not ignorant to damage reccy drugs may have caused me, but although you have had blood test etc do you honestly feel that your 18 years + of use has had no negative effects?....


well seeing as my last set of blood tests and heart checks came out all within the normal range then yes i can say that i have not caused any damage to myself or they would definitely show up on the tests i have done but then i do care enough about my health to actually be bothered to get them done you don't that is your choice....and it is 20yrs not 18...

so what damage has reccy drugs done to you??



shauno said:


> Would you consider yourself a steroid abuser or a steroid user? seeings as your steroid use is not prescription from a doctor....


i see my steroid use as sensible especially when you look at the amounts i take to the level of muscle i have and the checks i get done on my body but yes it is more than is prescribed by a Doc but then this is from a guy who uses reccy drugs which are not even used by a doc so in a way you would fall into the abuser role then??

i don't make excuses for my steroid use my diet and training are spot on and i get regular tests done on my body to catch anything that might occur before it becomes a problem you cannot do the same so please don't lecture me on the amount of time i have used and if it is damaging to my health...... :thumb:


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Forums attract members for a reason.

If the information is out there, why not inquire?

Why slate something you have no control over?

If a member joins a forum to learn about steroids, I see nothing wrong with information.

Remember this site is for recreational, and informational purposes only.


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## ShaunMc (Apr 28, 2008)

Big DOM have you changed your name to Stanco ..... ur such a kidder lol


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## Golden Man (Sep 10, 2005)

Hi all its mr npa under 78kg 2nd and 2nd bnbf welsh novice all 2007.

why was this thread started and a mod should be the fountain of knowledge so on this forum they would be users with knowledge etc.


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## shauno (Aug 26, 2007)

Magic Torch said:


> What is wrong with the argument "i dont do reccy drugs and my diet is spot on and healthy" ? Its a sensible statement which is a good point, how are steriod 'reccy' drugs? They are not taken to 'escape reality' and are used - if used properly, for a specific reason e.g. recuperation, or increased synthesis.... So why do people need to justify steriod use? And why do you think that people are ignorant to the damages it 'can' cause? Look through the AAS forum and every post about gear use will include a reference to ancillary drugs by a senior member/mod. Thats being responsible and researching the damage it can cause not ignorance.
> 
> I dont see any drug forums with smack heads, weekend ravers swapping ideas on how to deal with the side effects of reccy drugs.


Well AAS are recreational drugs unless prescribed by a doctor.

I fully appreciate the lengths gone to make the make the use as safe as possible.

what i find interesting is the view that they are perfectly safe, when there is talking of shutting down and other down sides. also you cant 'stay on' forever do you not feel there are psychological problems further down the line.....

Im not a stuck up t0sser i know the score with gear, i know people who use, i may use myself.

If i used id know it was a little bit naughty, i wouldnt try and justify it as at the end of the day its my decision, make your bed lie in it type thing.


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## AdamL (Oct 17, 2007)

Each person to there own i say.

I cannot think of any reason why gear shouldnt be openly talked about? This is a forum about bodybuilding so to face the facts of sports in todays world, you will have people that take gear, and some that dont( any sport, even horse racing! ) .

Plus,id rather have a friend that takes steroids then a friend that is hooked on cocaine and stuff alike. Were all differnt remember


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## shauno (Aug 26, 2007)

Pscarb said:


> if you want to go into details Heroin has been chemically altered so although it is part of the opiate family it is not the same thing yet when they give deca to burn victims or test to heart attack victims it is in the same form we use so my point is not flawed....but hey think what you want mate you still cannot compare heroin to AAS
> 
> *But your original point was that you have yet to see reccy drugs be used to treat people, i simply stated that infact in some form they are.... cannabis for MS sufferers being another.*
> 
> ...


Im not looking down on steroid use, im just likening it to other reccy drugs which imo and by definition it is.


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## shauno (Aug 26, 2007)

AdamL said:


> Each person to there own i say.
> 
> I cannot think of any reason why gear shouldnt be openly talked about? This is a forum about bodybuilding so to face the facts of sports in todays world, you will have people that take gear, and some that dont( any sport, even horse racing! ) .
> 
> Plus,id rather have a friend that takes steroids then a friend that is hooked on cocaine and stuff alike. Were all differnt remember


I dont wanna fall out with anyone here!

Each to there own definately.


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## Magic Torch (May 30, 2005)

shauno said:


> Well AAS are recreational drugs unless prescribed by a doctor.
> 
> I fully appreciate the lengths gone to make the make the use as safe as possible.
> 
> ...


Open you mind mate your looking at this from a very tainted view point.

Your saying that steriods are a recreational drug, as you are using them for a recreational activity. Wrong. The activity may be recreation but the involvment of drug is not. They are an active drug in that they are actually doing something, you dont take Test or Anabolics to get a buzz or to relax, you take them for a reason, protein synthesis or rejuvenation.

Recreational drugs, weed, charlie, E's are taken for enjoyment only.

I see your point, that streiods can cause harm. they can. But your not talking to chest and arm monkies in a pub on a friday night, your talking to grown family men who take them in there own home, research them and take them for a specific purpose. The risks are there yes but you can do them safely. The dont have to be dangerous.


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## shauno (Aug 26, 2007)

And i agree with everything you say, i just have my outlook on it.

Theres flaws, pros and cons in each argument.

I think we should leave it there or take it to PM, cool?


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## Inggasson (Jul 13, 2008)

I train without assistance, and always will, but if somebody else wants to use drugs to get what they want then good on them. I'm happy with my progress, and that's all that should really matter.


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## Magic Torch (May 30, 2005)

shauno said:


> And i agree with everything you say, i just have my outlook on it.
> 
> Theres flaws, pros and cons in each argument.
> 
> I think we should leave it there or take it to PM, cool?


Nah its cool 90% of the general public have the same opinion, as they are tainted by the media and government BS too. Some ppl just like burying their heads in the sand.


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## Golden Man (Sep 10, 2005)

Inggasson said:


> I train without assistance, and always will, but if somebody else wants to use drugs to get what they want then good on them. I'm happy with my progress, and that's all that should really matter.


Exactly if you want to be stupid and abuse drugs thats your choice,take them to improve yourself your choice,not take them your choice.I can think of several things worse than gear usage eg mr 30 **** a night 6 pints pizza mc'ds daily with chinese then the weekend 40fags bottle of whiskey etc.

The choice is yours and hopefully its an educated choice and you know the outcome


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## shauno (Aug 26, 2007)

Magic Torch said:


> Nah its cool 90% of the general public have the same opinion, as they are tainted by the media and government BS too. Some ppl just like burying their heads in the sand.


I agree the majority have a very blinkered view/ dont know what it actually is/does


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## Golden Man (Sep 10, 2005)

shauno said:


> I agree the majority have a very blinkered view/ dont know what it actually is/does


So true and they preach and I love the misconceptions fat bloke big arms must be on roids and have a small one and is hard.

How sad..better to be educated than naive


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

In the end, people doing something will defend their position of what they are doing, right or wrong.

Like a reformed smoker, he could care less when he was smoking and others sucking up his smoke, but when he quits he wants everyone to quit, or at the very least will not put up with someone elses smoke.

See how the road runs two ways?


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## PeterTheEater (May 20, 2004)

id rather discuss it and know the pros and cons than cane it on the side and not know what i was in for...


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## robc (Sep 21, 2008)

To be fair, just because something is made illegal it does not always mean it is due to being extremely harmful. The combination of a poorly advised government and political aims and pressures, make for a very blurry line of what is a serious threat to health and that which is not.

Sometimes a substance will be restricted or made illegal for other reasons, such as Ephedrine. Ephedrine can be used as a precursor to methamphetamine, an illegal drug.

One example of the poor decision making of the UK government; MDMA (Ecstasy) was rated at 18 on a list of 20 recreational drugs, in order of 1 being the worst for health and 20 being the least of concern, in a study conducted by the UK Medical Research Council in 2007.

The factors effecting the test were; acute physical harm, the propensity for physical and psychological dependency on the drug, and the negative familial and societal impacts of the drug.

So what does this tell us? it tells us that the governments own body, the UK Medical Research Council, has in this case, advised the government that MDMA usage is a far lesser concern than alcohol, tobacco and cannabis.

See UK_government_assessment_of_overall_harm and http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/6474053.stm for the source of information.

Yet Ecstasy is still rated as a Class A drug and carries a heavy fine and/or sentence for possesion and trafficking, and alcohol is available for however much you wish to consume.

More to the point of this thread... I personally believe that if one is aware of the risks to ones health, takes proper precautions and gains full understanding of what they are about to take on, fair play to them, who am I or anyone else to judge?

One thing I do hate, is when people are ignorant to the subject (steroids or other drugs) and use common misconceptions as their basis of fact, with little or absolutely no real understanding or knowledge of such a subject.

It happens all the time


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## TH0R (Aug 15, 2007)

Magic Torch said:


> your talking to grown family men who take them in there own home, research them and take them for a specific purpose. The risks are there yes but you can do them safely. The dont have to be dangerous.


That is a very good point


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## Inggasson (Jul 13, 2008)

Personally, I feel that if 90% of recreational and bodybuilding drugs were made legal and readily available in pharmacies or whatnot, crime would be reduced significantly and the government would make substantial revenue by way of tax. It's a matter of whether the elected distributors of these drugs could be kept in check and forced to do so responsibly, but I guess the problem our country has with under-age drinking suggests that such controls would be difficult, if not impossible, to enforce.

I still wouldn't use them, but it'd solve a lot of problems, IMHO.


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

robc said:


> To be fair, just because something is made illegal it does not always mean it is due to being extremely harmful. The combination of a poorly advised government and political aims and pressures, make for a very blurry line of what is a serious threat to health and that which is not.
> 
> Sometimes a substance will be restricted or made illegal for other reasons, such as Ephedrine. Ephedrine can be used as a precursor to methamphetamine, an illegal drug.
> 
> ...


brilliant post mate...

Shauno am i correct in thinking you are 17yrs old?


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

Notice how alcohol is the 5th most harmful drug and smoking is the 9th maybe that should be taken into consideration the next time someone starts to preach about the harmful effects of steroids??


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## robc (Sep 21, 2008)

Pscarb said:


> Notice how alcohol is the 5th most harmful drug and smoking is the 9th maybe that should be taken into consideration the next time someone starts to preach about the harmful effects of steroids??


Haha yes mate damn right.

I find it a shame that people do not appear to do their research properly before they make their final judgement on things, such as steroids.

People can be too quick to judge before all sides are heard and all things are considered.

I am glad Heroine is so high on that list, it can destroy lives. "Crack" Cocaine also deserves a high spot.

I have no doubt in my mind that the UK government needs to fully re-assess their drug enforcement policies and seek to perform full and proper studies so they can base their decisions on cold hard fact instead of caring too much what the public thinks and if it will affect  *votes*.

:thumb:


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## ShaunMc (Apr 28, 2008)

Pscarb said:


> Notice how alcohol is the 5th most harmful drug and smoking is the 9th maybe that should be taken into consideration the next time someone starts to preach about the harmful effects of steroids??


if you took into account the harm alcohol does other people and its impact on society it would rate at the top ........ just visit a casualty department on a friday night and see the amount of injuries caused bu alcohol related crime ... then consider the cost implic ation to the NHS and the police ...

and alcohol is legal

how many other drugs can u take where the next day you wake up and your body feels like its been poisoned ???????????


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## TH0R (Aug 15, 2007)

ShaunMc said:


> if you took into account the harm alcohol does other people and its impact on society it would rate at the top ........ just visit a casualty department on a friday night and see the amount of injuries caused bu alcohol related crime ... then consider the cost implic ation to the NHS and the police ...
> 
> and alcohol is legal
> 
> how many other drugs can u take where the next day you wake up and your body feels like its been poisoned ???????????


Don't want to join the "steroids are bad" brigade because in my mind its an education issue, you educate yourself on it and make a decision for yourself based on what you've learnt, simple as, unfortunately its normally the under educated that make these knee jerk laws reacting to popular (and uneducated on the subject) reaction.

Regards your above argument Shaun, I don't really see it that way, Alcohol is bad for you, we all know that so your point to me is a bit foggy. Its ok to legalise steroids because there not as bad for you as alcohol, or ban alcohol because its bad for you:confused1: Where do we stop, legalise cannabis as its way down the list? Should we ban glue as that is/has been a real problem in society.

TBH mate its a non win argument, I tend to believe that we should legalise the lot and use the tax to tackle the social situations which occur because of abuse, at the mo the only big winners are the dealers, IMHO


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## ShaunMc (Apr 28, 2008)

tel3563 said:


> Don't want to join the "steroids are bad" brigade because in my mind its an education issue, you educate yourself on it and make a decision for yourself based on what you've learnt, simple as, unfortunately its normally the under educated that make these knee jerk laws reacting to popular (and uneducated on the subject) reaction.
> 
> Regards your above argument Shaun, I don't really see it that way, Alcohol is bad for you, we all know that so your point to me is a bit foggy. Its ok to legalise steroids because there not as bad for you as alcohol, or ban alcohol because its bad for you:confused1: Where do we stop, legalise cannabis as its way down the list? Should we ban glue as that is/has been a real problem in society.
> 
> TBH mate its a non win argument, I tend to believe that we should legalise the lot and use the tax to tackle the social situations which occur because of abuse, at the mo the only big winners are the dealers, IMHO


my only point was the legality of a drug is not an indication of its safeness ........ there is no such thing as a safe drug but people are too quick to moralise about steroid use when in relative terms its a very low risk drug to the individual and society

i has this argument with a girl from needle exchange when she said steroid users are just as bad as heroin users ........... to which i replied that steroid users dont rob old ladies to feed their habit and end up in a bed sit sleeping in their own p!ss


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## Tasty (Aug 28, 2007)

I'm suprised to see Ketamine so high up that list


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## TH0R (Aug 15, 2007)

ShaunMc said:


> my only point was the legality of a drug is not an indication of its safeness ........


In that case it was a good one:thumb:


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## Beklet (May 13, 2005)

robc said:


> To be fair, just because something is made illegal it does not always mean it is due to being extremely harmful. The combination of a poorly advised government and political aims and pressures, make for a very blurry line of what is a serious threat to health and that which is not.
> 
> Sometimes a substance will be restricted or made illegal for other reasons, such as Ephedrine. Ephedrine can be used as a precursor to methamphetamine, an illegal drug.
> 
> ...


Need to spread the love....but yes you are absolutely right - just because something is legal, doesn't make it safe - OTC drugs can be very dangerous when taken to excess or with the wrong things, the government is misinformed about so many things :cursing:


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## robc (Sep 21, 2008)

ShaunMc said:


> i has this argument with a girl from needle exchange when she said steroid users are just as bad as heroin users ........... to which i replied that steroid users dont rob old ladies to feed their habit and end up in a bed sit sleeping in their own p!ss


haha a very good and valid reply mate. :lol:



> Need to spread the love....but yes you are absolutely right - just because something is legal' date=' doesn't make it safe - OTC drugs can be very dangerous when taken to excess or with the wrong things, the government is misinformed about so many things :cursing: [/quote']
> 
> Very true, which also reminded me... the government (and the general public, for that matter) must realise and come to terms with the fact that drugs themselves are not the problem, it is drug *abuse*.
> 
> ...


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## totalimmortal (Sep 18, 2008)

In my opinion the only reason drugs such as alcohol and tobacco top various lists involving casualties, violence etc etc is because they ARE legal and available to everyone in massive quantities...

I'm sure anabolic steroids would contend for these top spots with any of these drugs were they legal and being used excessively and at the leisure of anybody that wanted to get big...

Basically what i'm trying to say is many of these drugs are potentially no more dangerous than any of the others, tobacco and alcohol are consumed in excessively vast quantities as opposed to anabolic steroids, more usage is inevitably going to incurr more injuries and what have you...

I don't know whether to beleive what charts like show us because people fail to realise these aren't fair and relative comparisons, the harm caused by drugs should be displayed in a more comparitive way ie everything should be taken in relative doses but such studies would probably be unethical and the only thing they really have to go by would be hospital/police records...

I also would like to point out I am currently running my first AAS cycle and I think we as a community here tend to shy away from the side-effects side of the story here (i'm not sure whether this is 100% true as I haven't read THAT much on this board) and I think we should talk more openly about the dangers that are associated with AAS rather than effectively saying 'Nah, there's nothing wrong with steroids...alcohol, there's the problem'


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## Alex Redford (Sep 9, 2008)

Littleluke said:


> I respect your post stanco but you're one of many people who only know of steroids through other people. the old wrod of mouth "steroids make your willy smaller" or "you'll be dead by the time you're 50". If abused any drug can cause you long term problems. There's a steroid seminar tape in the steroids section. Listen to it, 9 people since 1930 died in relation to steroids. How many people died from smoking related illnesses this year? thousands.
> 
> You're entitled to have an opinion mate and I respect you 100% for saying how you feel.


 lmao not a dig at nayone but ... Luke your so right... on a sunday i go to a differant gym to where i train and just chil out using the sauna and pool to relax however when in the sauna me and my trainin partner wher just chatting about if when we are going to think about taking gear and then this overweight woman decides to but in and tell us her life story and it all ends with steroids will be the death of you and all then the played the same record... alot of people who only know them through other people your right mate.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

There is so much missinformation about steroids in the media and general public it is crazy.

I have talked to many people, they are so wrong it isnt funny.

I love the one where they say it makes your pee pee smaller.....OMG, clueless comes to mind here....


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## dmcc (Nov 25, 2007)

Tasty said:


> I'm suprised to see Ketamine so high up that list


I'm not. Isn't it derived from a horse tranquilizer or something?


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## Ashcrapper (Jul 3, 2008)

Noticed a lot of comments in the thread about steroid users (on here) having clean lifestyles etc.

This isnt true about the "pub muscle" steroid users who go in the gym where I train. Id say about 75% of them get absolutely off their tits every weekend. Surely this cant be isolated to the filth whole where I train can it?

Think it depends on the type of person and their goals how healthy they are but then again this is true in every walk of life.

Good thread by the way, interesting debate :rockon:


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## Guest (Oct 8, 2008)

That list is fvcking ridiculas alcohol scores over ketamine and solvents score lower than weed PMSL.


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## Macca 1976 (Sep 16, 2008)

Stanco I have looked at many topics about steroids and Steroid abuse at times I have even considered using them myself but decided it was all for the wrong reasons.

I have known of people who have use them and abused them and have become totally differant in personality for the worse.

I have known guys who have done major damage to there bodys, I also have seen studies that have backed up claims body builders who do abuse steroids dont live as long due to the excess strain on there hearts and bodys, just look at all the problems Arnold S had in later life.

But then there are some guys who do take steroids who are a totally dedicated bunch whos diet and training is nothing I could ever stick to, also you wont see them smashing a glass over some one head at 2 in the morning because of Alcohol, you wont see them coughing there guts up due to smoking so you have to ask this there are so many things that are bad for you in life but its your life and you should choose how you live it as long as it not affecting others.

The problem we have now adays with steroids is that to many people are using it as a get big quick and lose fat fix, there not doing any research and just diving in at the deep end, in my opinion these are the guys who are giving the dedicated a bad name and why so many of these questions araise.


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## essexboy (Sep 7, 2008)

Il think youll find arnolds heart issues(valve replacement )was more likely due to a genetic predispostion than steroids.However, i have known of three friends whose deaths whilst not attributed directly to steroids,had symtoms/illnesses that were extremely rare, for men of their age.Remember its not just bbs who use aas, its EVERYBODY whether it be rowers, wrestlers, mma fighters etc.


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## Macca 1976 (Sep 16, 2008)

Totally agree its common in other sports but they are more regulated than body building when it comes to testing as steroids are accepted in the body building world, the problem with steroids is it is very hard to prove a death through them unlike smoking and drinking.

I also think that a lot of deaths are cause with sports men and women using black market products that could have anything in them, I hear a lot on this forum about people complaining of back pain and other bad syptoms when taking steroids surely that your body telling you to stop? :confused1:


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

Macca 1976 said:


> also have seen studies that have backed up claims body builders who do abuse steroids dont live as long due to the excess strain on there hearts and bodys.


could you post up or link to these studies please mate....


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## Uriel (Oct 14, 2008)

1 thing I like about forums like this is the honesty.

When I was a scroat, I used to read "Flex" and "Muscle & Fitness" as I tried to learn how to get as big as the Olympians in it.

There was much talk of 5 hour a day training, eating (Joe Weiders Products), vitamins etc.

Do you think anyone got Huge following the advice in those mags?

One vital piece of information was NEVER discussed..... Anabolics.

At least a budding BB'er can come here and get good honest advice on what is needed to get massive if that is what they want.

I haven't bought Flex since Ronnie Coleman won his first O....I seem to remember he was a cop at the time and the list of about 40 - 50 supplemets he took daily to get that big.........yeah ok Ronnie!


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## essexboy (Sep 7, 2008)

Pscarb said:


> could you post up or link to these studies please mate....


try reading The Adonis Complex.Sorry i cant remember the author.AAS effects on cholesterol ldl/hdl,are probably the most agressive, side effect.Remember that if you experience side effects whilst using,(high bp, behaviour issues) most likely the side effects will disapear on cessation.Arterial plaque which has been cause by "bad fat" will not.


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## essexboy (Sep 7, 2008)

Uriel said:


> 1 thing I like about forums like this is the honesty.
> 
> When I was a scroat, I used to read "Flex" and "Muscle & Fitness" as I tried to learn how to get as big as the Olympians in it.
> 
> ...


glad to see i wasnt the only one.Apart from me reading them in the 70s, nothing has changed.Since Weider began publishing his nonsense, every generation has gullable young bbs, who buy into the myth.Its hard to imagine a world when information wasnt available indstantly, amd we had to rely on the magazines for information.i remember seeing Mentzer in 1980ish in london.He openly admitted to using steroids.He rationalised his decision to admit to using them by saying " I dont do anything im ashamed of, and im not ashamed of using steroids" More power to him.


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## Macca 1976 (Sep 16, 2008)

Pscarb said:


> could you post up or link to these studies please mate....


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/medical_notes/241341.stm

http://dwb.unl.edu/Teacher/NSF/C10/C10Links/www.tcada.state.tx.us/research/facts/steroids.html

Here is two of them I will try and find the other I saw.


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## BigDom86 (Jul 27, 2008)

i think you need to have common sense when taking steroids. sure they are not as bad, nearly as bad as government etc make out. but they are detrimental to health and if you think otherwise your just kidding yourself. these tests they do in hospitals for heart condition, liver etc, are only tests, they do not show the true deep down effects it is having. if you take them you take them, if you dont you dont, its personal choice at the end of the day. i think alot of people are weak minded either way and are easily persuaded in both directions


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## A7X (Oct 22, 2008)

Macca 1976 said:


> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/medical_notes/241341.stm
> 
> http://dwb.unl.edu/Teacher/NSF/C10/C10Links/www.tcada.state.tx.us/research/facts/steroids.html
> 
> Here is two of them I will try and find the other I saw.


Actually i don't think those links prove the dangers of steroid usage. In fact i dont know of many cases where steroids have been the main cause of early death.

I read the autopsy reports of 10 german bodybuilders a while ago (one of them was andreas muntzer) and in nearly all cases diuretics or rec drugs have been greatly involved.

On the other hand steroids do cause some unfavorable changes to ones health - left v. heart growth for example (which seems to be reversible though), and a shift in hdl / ldl ratio which may contribute to plaque formation (even though not the main cause as it seems today).

So of course steroids have some health risks associated to them - as every prescription drug. But reasonable use should be fairly safe. I nkow several bodybuilders in their 50s and they are all perfectly healthy despite using AAS for quite some time or are still using. The media tries to scare people cause scary things sell best.


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

Macca 1976 said:


> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/medical_notes/241341.stm
> 
> http://dwb.unl.edu/Teacher/NSF/C10/C10Links/www.tcada.state.tx.us/research/facts/steroids.html
> 
> Here is two of them I will try and find the other I saw.


Macca these are typical scaremongering pieces of crap with no science to back them up, i wanted to see the study/papers you mentioned here



Macca 1976 said:


> also have seen studies that have backed up claims body builders who do abuse steroids dont live as long due to the excess strain on there hearts and bodys.





BigDom86 said:


> they are detrimental to health and if you think otherwise your just kidding yourself.


so by this we can take that everyone who takes steroids are in bad health?



BigDom86 said:


> these tests they do in hospitals for heart condition, liver etc, are only tests, they do not show the true deep down effects it is having.


i don't understand what you mean? by having regular tests you will see any effect they have on your body or are you saying the negatives just appear with no sign?


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## BigDom86 (Jul 27, 2008)

no im not saying that at all paul. bodybuilders are among the healthiest in the world. but there are problems. im not going into anything as i get flamed whenever i mention anything against steroids on this board.


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## MXMAD (Oct 11, 2007)

I to come here last year asking the best course or steroids to do

I was told to leave them alone and start training natty and get a good diet going, if these people here didnt care they would of let me get on with it.


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## pauly7582 (Jan 16, 2007)

Pscarb said:


> Macca these are typical scaremongering pieces of crap with no science to back them up, i wanted to see the study/papers you mentioned here


lol there arent any mate. you'd have to track them for years until they died. No one would bother carrying out something so big on such a niche area for so long. Longevity studies are only done in huge groups which are massively costly to the NHS, like smokers, obese etc.


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

BigDom86 said:


> no im not saying that at all paul. bodybuilders are among the healthiest in the world. but there are problems. im not going into anything as i get flamed whenever i mention anything against steroids on this board.


Dom i quoted what you said because it does come across that steroids are un-healthy so that would mean we who use are un-healthy it was not a dig.....i think what you meant was that if not respected they can damage your health to a degree but then that could be said about asprin


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## BigDom86 (Jul 27, 2008)

yes i agree with you, you can use them in moderation. but what is moderation? medicinal uses are much much lower than bb levels, even low or moderate bb doses are high wouldnt you agree?


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Macca 1976 said:


> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/medical_notes/241341.stm
> 
> http://dwb.unl.edu/Teacher/NSF/C10/C10Links/www.tcada.state.tx.us/research/facts/steroids.html


This is a classic example of taking some bits of information, spinning that into something far worse than it actually would normally appear.

I found both of those articles had some information, but so exagerated it was a form of media hysteria.

This is sensationalism at its finest.

Sorry, some of the information is true, but not in the context of fair reporting of facts.

One example was the liver, it is the orals that are for the most part hard on the liver, injectables are not hard on the liver, hell even alcohol is harder on the liver than most injectables.

Cancer?

Give me a break, if you are predisposed to that then you are going to get it, it just does not give you cancer unless it was something like anadrol which has been to show that it can but not very likely.

Lumping all steroids into the cancer sceene is nonesense.


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## ba baracuss (Apr 26, 2004)

Macca 1976 said:


> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/medical_notes/241341.stm


I've always wondered why athletes have used nandrolone/deca when it's considered by many on here to be unsuitable for someone's first cycle due to the bad shutdown it can lead to.

A group of Dutch footballers tested positive for it a few years ago too.

Maybe they just use small doses or something :confused1:

Ben Johnson did Winstrol not deca BTW.



BigDom86 said:


> no im not saying that at all paul. bodybuilders are among the healthiest in the world. but there are problems. im not going into anything as i get flamed whenever i mention anything against steroids on this board.


One of the reasons you get flamed is because you have no evidence to back up your claims - just gossip and myths.

Paul has 20 years of gear use of his own and I'm sure tons of experience of others' use to back up his opinions.


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## essexboy (Sep 7, 2008)

A7X said:


> Actually i don't think those links prove the dangers of steroid usage. In fact i dont know of many cases where steroids have been the main cause of early death.
> 
> I read the autopsy reports of 10 german bodybuilders a while ago (one of them was andreas muntzer) and in nearly all cases diuretics or rec drugs have been greatly involved.
> 
> ...


you read the autopsy reports of TEN bodybuilders.surely diuretics and cocaine arent the only contributing factors here? you say you know several bbs in their 50s. fine so do I and some are having health problems.i aslo knew 3 who didnt make it to their 40s, and two who didnt make 30.Your young wait until you reach your late forties,your optomistic view of your mortality will become more realistic, and you wont be so dissmisive of the potential risk,as you are now.


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## essexboy (Sep 7, 2008)

Pscarb said:


> so by this we can take that everyone who takes steroids are in bad health?


It would seem that a common side effect is elevated blood pressure.I would judge that any young male who has no other health issues that would cause high bp, not to be on optimum health.it would seem that extremely serious health issues, are ignored by many who use aas.


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## BigDom86 (Jul 27, 2008)

i think many steroid users are naive and dont look at the bigger picture, yes it can cause deaths but not a direct link, because of course you cant make a direct link. sure steroids can cause increase bp, fatty deposits etc etc. i also think many anti-steroid people are naive too, there both as bad as each other in my opinion. paul i respect how you take what you take and that you are alwayss getting tested etc aswell. unfortunately this isnt the case with alot of people.


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## Guy.B (Oct 11, 2008)

im interested to know what can be acheived through purely natural means. All the famous bb's have obviously used gear so i wanna see what can be acheived naturally. I know it has alot to do with genetics but for the average joe, can you be big without gear??


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## BigDom86 (Jul 27, 2008)

guy look on npa and bnbf website. also look jim cordova, kiyoshi moody, rob hope, jon harris, many many more.


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## Guest (Oct 22, 2008)

Guy.B said:


> can you be big without gear??


 Depends on your defintion of big.


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## Guy.B (Oct 11, 2008)

Con said:


> Depends on your defintion of big.


like for eg. rob hope

also, is it true that u can easily lose gains made on gear, and is that the case when clean?


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## BigDom86 (Jul 27, 2008)

yeah depends on definition of big. your not gona get a natural ronnie, well you might, will have very good genes though and possible mutations.

but there are many big nattys, espcially kiyoshi moody and jim cordova


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## Guest (Oct 22, 2008)

Guy.B said:


> like for eg. rob hope
> 
> also, is it true that u can easily lose gains made on gear, and is that the case when clean?


 No because when your always clean you dont have the drop in hormones that maintain muscle once steriods are discontinued.

Never met Rob Hope so i dont know how "big" he looks in clothes but he certaintly looks great on stage.

Here is my honest opinion, with out gear you can look wicked on stage but in shape and in clothes you will not have a physique that looks very dominating, now on steriods you may not even look better on stage but when fully clothed you will look a lot rounder and "bulked".


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## TH0R (Aug 15, 2007)

Guy.B said:


> like for eg. rob hope
> 
> also, is it true that u can easily lose gains made on gear, and is that the case when clean?


take a look at this guys log

http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/shows-pros-inspiration/37331-give-me-my-ifbb-procard-now.html

Superb genetics and he will be deffo one to look out for in the coming years


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## Uriel (Oct 14, 2008)

don't forget lots of "naturals" do loads of gear, just saying you don't does not mean it's true.

I have decent genes and trained natural for a long time. I have a fair idea of what's achievable and what is not.


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## BigDom86 (Jul 27, 2008)

yes uriel is right ^^. im nto sure which federations let it go by though. i would only want to compete in a federation that does testing throughout the year, eventhough it would cost more


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## A7X (Oct 22, 2008)

essexboy said:


> you read the autopsy reports of TEN bodybuilders.surely diuretics and cocaine arent the only contributing factors here? you say you know several bbs in their 50s. fine so do I and some are having health problems.i aslo knew 3 who didnt make it to their 40s, and two who didnt make 30.Your young wait until you reach your late forties,your optomistic view of your mortality will become more realistic, and you wont be so dissmisive of the potential risk,as you are now.


Yeah it was more like a "case study" to link the use of steroids to early death. i'd upload it for you but it is completly in german. If you are still interested shoot me a pm.

I also now some BB's (even two former pros) who indeed HAVE health problems, but both of them used also rec drugs and ran fairly high dosages (speaking of 3+ gramms, +15IU GH/day) for extended periods (years) of time without getting medical check ups. Thats i not what i would call reasonable steroid use.

Maybe i presented a view on steroids which came across a bit to optimistic, i am well aware of the risks involved - but on the other hand i simply dont like non founded statements from so called "authorities" about the "dangers" steroids imply. A good buddy studied endocrinology (sp?) over here and even he runs AAS (only test) whereas he schould be the one who should know best what kind of health risks to expect.


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## MaKaVeLi (Aug 12, 2008)

I bet quite a few "naturals" talk out of their **** and have actually cycled before.

And steroid use is so accepted on the board because they are all a bunch of skanky roid heads who cheat and are just lazy!!! Ronnie coleman is natural and proves you don't need roids, pfff no dedication whatsoever. Shame on you!!


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

essexboy said:


> you read the autopsy reports of TEN bodybuilders.surely diuretics and cocaine arent the only contributing factors here? you say you know several bbs in their 50s. fine so do I and some are having health problems.i aslo knew 3 who didnt make it to their 40s, and two who didnt make 30.


here is a fact to shock you......old people can have bad health without steroids....how could this be!!!!



essexboy said:


> Your young wait until you reach your late forties,your optimistic view of your mortality will become more realistic, and you wont be so dismissive of the potential risk,as you are now.


can i ask essexboy...

do you drink alcohol?

do you smoke?

do you eat foods containing sat/trans fats?

if you do then please look at the stats to how many people die each day or have serious health issues then compare it to the amount of steroid users have died or have bad health issues i think you will find any one of the things above contribute to more deaths and serious health issues than steroids ever will.......i think you will find obesity is becoming the biggest killer in the uk so when are you going to stop people going into McDonald's??

it truly does amaze me how many preach about the health issues associated with steroids yet think nothing of slamming back a vindaloo every weekend with 5-6beers.....

i have used steroids for 20yrs and the worst side effect i have ever had is a little acne along with a 3point rise in my cholesterol reading yet i know guys who have never used any drug yet they are dead now and they was younger than me...how can this be?



essexboy said:


> It would seem that a common side effect is elevated blood pressure.I would judge that any young male who has no other health issues that would cause high bp, not to be on optimum health.it would seem that extremely serious health issues, are ignored by many who use aas.


i would say your information is out of date a common side effect of some oral steroids is high BP...but then bad diet can cause high BP so if a guy using steroids whilst eating a bad diet has high BP how can you tell it is the diet or steroid that caused it?

the most common side effect of steroid use is a drop in HDL (good cholesterol) in one of my MD mags it speaks of a study carried out on bodybuilders over a 12 week period using different doses of deca and the only side effect worth mentioning was a drop in HDL the amount it dropped was dose dependant......


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

I can vouch for the drop in HDL's, mine went down to 15, when the range should be 60.


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## essexboy (Sep 7, 2008)

Pscarb said:


> here is a fact to shock you......old people can have bad health without steroids....how could this be!!!!
> 
> can i ask essexboy...
> 
> ...


Whoa! please understand im not judging your or anyone elses use of ANYTHING. Yes i use alcohol,(unfortunately not as much as id like to anymore) have smoked, and 20 years ago used dinabol and deca, once.My point is that in the same way smokers become defensive, and use the "weve all got to die of something" line many steriod users also rationalise aas use the same way.All i have done is post my experiences with people Ive known.Sure a bad diet(high sodium) can contribute to elevated bp.That doesnt lessen the fact that aas also have the same effect, its just another cause.There just seems to be a high incidence of complications and deaths, from users of aas that come to light from time to time.Whether or not these fatalities were aware of potental problems we wont know.It would seem prudent however to keep closely monitored and be aware that some of the side effects are potentially very serious.Whilst typing this three well known names who died prematurely have sprung to mind,and i wasnt even trying.The cavalier fashion with which some view aas use is what i find alarming.Please understand im all for the individual being able to make informed choices, good luck ps.


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

essexboy said:


> There just seems to be a high incidence of complications and deaths, from users of aas that come to light from time to time.Whether or not these fatalities were aware of potental problems we wont know.It would seem prudent however to keep closely monitored and be aware that some of the side effects are potentially very serious.


yes i agree with you that many do not fully understand the sides but my point is that steroids do not just kill you it takes a serous abuse of the drug to cause major issues (this was told to me by my Doc) yet many including yourself point out the dangers of Steroid use yet you drink and smoke (or did) and these two things are in the top 10 most dangerous drug list issued by the government hell it says in big bold letters on a packet of **** that they will kill you so how fukcing stupid do you have to be to then smoke after reading that??

this is why i defend the health issues associated with steroid use.....



essexboy said:


> The cavalier fashion with which some view aas use is what i find alarming.Please understand im all for the individual being able to make informed choices, good luck ps.


so do i mate, their are many members on this and other boards that use high doses of steroids whilst not looking like they even train this alarms me.....

i have been using gear on and off for 20yrs sometimes using silly doses yet their are guys in my gym that use more than i do now but they have only just started training this again alarms me.....

boards like this are essential as they arm the individual with information so they can make an informed choice.......


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## Littleluke (Nov 21, 2005)

Pscarb said:


> yes i agree with you that many do not fully understand the sides but my point is that steroids do not just kill you it takes a serous abuse of the drug to cause major issues (this was told to me by my Doc) yet many including yourself point out the dangers of Steroid use yet you drink and smoke (or did) and these two things are in the top 10 most dangerous drug list issued by the government hell it says in big bold letters on a packet of **** that they will kill you so how fukcing stupid do you have to be to then smoke after reading that??
> 
> this is why i defend the health issues associated with steroid use.....
> 
> ...


I was having a discussion with a newish member to my gym. He is a big lump but nice and lean too.. The thing is he seems to be a bit over enthusiastic about his steroid use and he openly talks about it. Alot of people will look at him, hear that he uses 4g a week and think that is what is needed to look that good.

IMO this is why the mg usage has increased in gyms due to guys like this!


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

i agree Luke in fact for the guys i know who compete their and my usage has dropped where those in the gym at the beginner level it is increasing...


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## Macca 1976 (Sep 16, 2008)

Quote

can i ask essexboy...

do you drink alcohol?

do you smoke?

do you eat foods containing sat/trans fats?

if you do then please look at the stats to how many people die each day or have serious health issues then compare it to the amount of steroid users have died or have bad health issues i think you will find any one of the things above contribute to more deaths and serious health issues than steroids ever will.......i think you will find obesity is becoming the biggest killer in the uk so when are you going to stop people going into McDonald's??

it truly does amaze me how many preach about the health issues associated with steroids yet think nothing of slamming back a vindaloo every weekend with 5-6beers.....

i have used steroids for 20yrs and the worst side effect i have ever had is a little acne along with a 3point rise in my cholesterol reading yet i know guys who have never used any drug yet they are dead now and they was younger than me...how can this be?

The reason more people die of obesity is that junkfood is avaliable everywhere just imagine the goverment legalised steriod and they were as easy to get hold as a bag of chips, I think the death rate would at least double.

But what I cannot understand is that certain drugs are illegal and smoking the biggest killer of all is not!!!

Also Alcohol can improve your health drank in moderation, like a glass of red wine a night it binge drinking that kills.

I cannot understand with the "I took steroids for 20 years and I am healthy", my great uncle smoked 20 **** a day and died at 88.

Everyone is differant!!!


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

Macca 1976 said:


> The reason more people die of obesity is that junkfood is avaliable everywhere just imagine the goverment legalised steriod and they were as easy to get hold as a bag of chips, I think the death rate would at least double.


just because it is available does not mean you should stuff your fat face with it does it? within 5miles of my house i have over 10 fast food outlets yet i am not obese why?

my point is everything can cause health issues yet everyone focuses on steroids why?



Macca 1976 said:


> Also Alcohol can improve your health drank in moderation, like a glass of red wine a night it binge drinking that kills.


but this is one type and a small amount my point is the weekend warriors who drink Fri/Sat night 6-10pints plus shots etc....



Macca 1976 said:


> I cannot understand with the "I took steroids for 20 years and I am healthy", my great uncle smoked 20 **** a day and died at 88.
> 
> Everyone is differant!!!


yes and my point if you read the posts before it is that you can use steroids with no serous side effects, as the growing opinion which is mainly from those who don't use steroids or who have very little understanding is that if you take any steroid you will die....


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## Macca 1976 (Sep 16, 2008)

yes and my point if you read the posts before it is that you can use steroids with no serous side effects, as the growing opinion which is mainly from those who don't use steroids or who have very little understanding is that if you take any steroid you will die....


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## A7X (Oct 22, 2008)

I think steroid dangers today are blown out of proportion, after all steroids have been developed for the treatment of diseases and most of them do have a really good saftey reccord...

For the fun of it i copied the "Adverse Reaction" paragraph from both Testosterone Cyp (Pfizer) and Aspirin, the most used drug worldwide i guess:

*Testosterone*

Endocrine and urogenital: Gynecomastia and excessive frequency and duration of penile<o></o>

erections. Oligospermia may occur at high dosages.

<o></o>

Skin and appendages: Hirsutism, male pattern of baldness, seborrhea, and acne.

<o></o>

Fluid and electrolyte disturbances: Retention of sodium, chloride, water, potassium,<o></o>

calcium, and inorganic phosphates.

<o></o>

Gastrointestinal: Nausea, cholestatic jaundice, alterations in liver function tests, rarely<o></o>

hepatocellular neoplasms and peliosis hepatis

<o></o>

Hematologic: Suppression of clotting factors II, V, VII, and X, bleeding in patients on<o></o>

concomitant anticoagulant therapy, and polycythemia.

<o></o>

Nervous system: Increased or decreased libido, headache, anxiety, depression, and generalized<o></o>

paresthesia.

<o></o>

Allergic: Hypersensitivity, including skin manifestations and anaphylactoid reactions.

<o></o>

Miscellaneous: Inflammation and pain at the site of intramuscular injection.

*Aspirin*

anaphylaxis<o></o>

angioedema<o></o>

bronchospasm<o></o>

bleeding<o></o>

GI ulceration/perforation<o></o>

GI bleed<o></o>

anemia, iron deficiency<o></o>

thrombocytopenia<o></o>

leukopenia<o></o>

nephrotoxicity<o></o>

hepatotoxicity (high-dose ASA)<o></o>

salicylism<o></o>

Reye's syndrome (rare)<o></o>

dyspepsia<o></o>

GI irritation<o></o>

nausea/vomiting<o></o>

abdominal pain<o></o>

anorexia<o></o>

rash<o></o>

urticaria<o></o>

ecchymosis<o></o>

occult GI blood loss<o></o>

bleeding<o></o>

tinnitus<o></o>

dizziness<o></o>

hyperuricemia

Even recently on US TV a guy "died"due to a "steroid overdose" whereas the package insert of Test Cyp clearly says: "OVERDOSAGE : There have been no reports of acute overdosage with the androgens." :cursing:

On the other hand it is not too bad the media scares the **** out of uninformed people if steroids would loose their image of beeing dangeours drugs everybody would be using them making it harder for us to stand out :innocent:


----------



## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

Macca 1976 said:


> Point taken and another point is that I bet the reason why steroids are so dangerous is it like russian roulette most people dont know what they are really getting when buying on the black market, if steroids were legal you might be able to lower the risk of side effects.


yes and no

yes they would be better controlled health and safety wise

no because the biggest health issue with steroids are the Muppet's who use to much to soon and this will never go away....

i just read a study in the recent MD about Italian researchers studied 20 bodybuilders over 2 yrs and the most significant long term side effect was fertility problems and increased HDL levels....when you look at all the scaremongering crap that is about the researches must of been surprised all the bodybuilders did not diet


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

A7X this is exactly my point anything can be dangerouse when abused


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## essexboy (Sep 7, 2008)

A7X said:


> I think steroid dangers today are blown out of proportion, after all steroids have been developed for the treatment of diseases and most of them do have a really good saftey reccord...
> 
> For the fun of it i copied the "Adverse Reaction" paragraph from both Testosterone Cyp (Pfizer) and Aspirin, the most used drug worldwide i guess:
> 
> ...


the reason i believe that they have become vilified is that it only takes one halfwit to kill or maim and steroids get the blame.We all know they have an effect on mood( really played me up) but the same halfwit, would probaly have commited the same offence if he had drunk a few pints of wife beater.Also the goverment know that a black market has grown.it cannot codone this.however the "they cant be harmful as they are used to treat sick people" is of no real consequence.i was put on a drug called Amioderon.its meant to be used for a maximum of 6 months.my harley st specialist left me on it for 18 months(yeah thanks)the potential sides make steroids about as toxic as candyfloss.Liver damage, Destruction of thyroid,lung damage, and my favourite, blindness!plus extreme sensitivity to sunlight.(i used to look like a lobster in summer)Point is, the balancing game, do the potential side effects outweigh potentail benefits?:


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Lets just look at this from a money perspective.

The governments have pharma companies that make up the real steroids for medical and TRT.

Underground labs constitute probably about 80% of all the steroid distribution or more, everyone that purchases these do so with no taxes being paid, and many times cheaper than the pharma companies.

Alcohol has a tax, and cigarettes have tons of tax, more than half the price of the pack if **** is taxed and that is about 5 bucks a pack (total price).

Everyone knows **** kill, hell it did my grandpa in, my mother, and my dad had bypass surgery potentially from smoking.

This is all about money, the government cant get their hands on the taxes of the UG lab guys that sell.

Here in the states they are thinknig about making a luxery tax for fat people and potentially deny coverage with medical.

This game has alot to do with money, if I could grow this stuff in my back yard It would be solid growth.

Not everything is meet's the eye here, money influences many things, if you dont think so check out the speeding cameras which were designed to keep accidents down, but all the while used to generate money without the use of any labor envolved......Such BS it isnt funny.


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## Golden Man (Sep 10, 2005)

Christ still cant believe this thread is going


----------



## Guest (Oct 25, 2008)

a list of drug related deaths, including sports soo many steriod ones in there goldenboy maybe your barking up the wrong drug tree , more damaging stuff out there than ass

• Herb Abrams - professional wrestling promoter, heart complications brought on by drug abuse.

• Nick Adams (36) - actor, drug overdose.

• Kerry Gene Adkisson (33) - professional wrestler, suicide, after arrest for cocaine possession and drug problems.

• Michael Brent Adkisson (23) - professional wrestler, suicide, overdosed on tranquilizers.

• Ryūnosuke Akutagawa (35) - writer, committed suicide by overdosing on barbiturates.

• Dennis Allen - infamous drug dealer, drug induced heart failure.

• GG Allin (36) - punk musician, heroin overdose.

• Bridgette Andersen (21) former child actress, alcohol and heroin overdose.

• Pier Angeli (39) Italian-born actress, died of anaphylactic shock after being given a tranquilizer by her doctor.

• Matthew Ansara - actor and bodybuilder, heroin overdose.

• Chris Antley - champion horse-racing jockey, drug-related causes.

• West Arkeen - musician, drug overdose.

• Howard Arkley - painter, drug overdose.

• Kevyn Aucoin - photographer & make-up artist, kidney and liver failure due Chet Baker (58) - jazz trumpeter and singer.

• John Balance (42) - musician, Coil, fell over a banister while drunk.

• Florence Ballard (32) - musician, The Supremes, cardiac arrest strongly exacerbated by long-term drug abuse.

• Lester Bangs (33) - musician, writer, overdose of painkillers, possibly accidental.

• Jean-Michel Basquiat (27) - painter, heroin overdose.

• Scotty Beckett (38) - American former child actor, suicide, barbiturate overdose.

• Bix Beiderbecke (28) - jazz musician, alcoholism.

• Steve Bechler - Major League Baseball pitcher, after using the drug ephedra.

• John Belushi (33) - of the Blues Brothers, actor, and comedian, heroin and cocaine overdose (speedball).

• Bunny Berigan (33) - musician, trumpet, liver cirrhosis from alcoholism.

• Wes Berggren - musician, Tripping Daisy.

• George Best (59) - ex-footballer with Manchester United, multiple organ failure exacerbated by chronic long-standing alcoholism.

• Leah Betts (18) - schoolgirl, ecstasy related.

• Len Bias (22) - basketball star; died of cocaine overdose before ever playing in the NBA.

• Dave Bidwell - musician, the Pink Fairies, Chicken Shack, Savoy Brown, Mungo Jerry.

• Bam Bam Bigelow (45) - professional wrestler, toxic levels of cocaine and temazepam.

• Count Gottfried von Bismarck (44) - Aristocrat, suspected drug overdose.

• Matty Blagg (real name Matthew Roberts) - musician, Blaggers I.T.A., heart attack due to ketamine / ecstacy OD.

• Mike Bloomfield (36) - blues guitarist, heroin overdose.

• Tommy Bolin (25) - musician, Deep Purple, drugs overdose and/or alcohol poisoning.

• John Bonham (32) - musician Led Zeppelin, alcohol related asphyxiation caused by choking on his own vomit.

• James Booker (44) - musician, liver failure.

• Christopher Bowman (40) - former professional ice skater, possible prescription drug overdose.

• Elisa Bridges (29) - model, acute intoxication - combined effects of heroin, methamphetamine, meperidine and alprazolam.

• Erik Brødreskift (30) - musician, Borknagar,Gorgoroth,and Immortal, suicide - pill overdose.

• Herman Brood (55) - musician, suicide after long-term substance abuse issues.

• Dennis Brown (42) - musician, Reggae singer, believed to be AIDS related but strong rumours of chronic drug abuse.

• Lenny Bruce (40) - comedian, morphine overdose.

• Rob Buck (42) - musician, 10,000 Maniacs, liver disease.

• Tim Buckley (28) - rock and roll musician, heroin overdose.

• Chad Butler (aka "Pimp C") - rap musician, accidental overdose of Promethazine/Codeine "syrup" mixed with a pre-existing medical condition, sleep apnea[1][2].

• Paul Butterfield (44) - musician, drug and alcohol overdose.

• Andrés Caicedo (25) - writer, drugs overdose, and other things (suicide).

• Toy Caldwell - musician, Marshall Tucker Band.

• Casey Calvert - guitarist of Hawthorne Heights, accidental drug overdose through mixture of opiates, citalopram, and clonazepam.

• Ken Caminiti (41) - former Major League Baseball player; acute cocaine and opiates intoxication.

• Skip Candelori - musician, Turning Point.

• Max Cantor - journalist, actor, heroin overdose, he became an addict while researching addicts in New York.

• Truman Capote (59) - writer, liver disease complicated by phlebitis and multiple drug intoxication.

• Gia Carangi - supermodel, heroin abuse led to a death from AIDS.

• Leroy Carr - blues musician, cirrhosis of the liver as a result of alcoholism.

• Gene Clark (46) - musician, the Byrds, bleeding ulcer due to long term alcohol abuse.

• Sonny Clark - musician, hard bop pianist, heroin overdose.

• Steve Clark (30) - musician, Def Leppard, accidential death (anti-depressants, painkillers and alcohol).

• Michael Clarke (47) - musician, the Byrds, liver failure due to long term alcoholism.

• Will Clay - musician, The Toys.

• Montgomery Clift - actor, heart attack due to severe alcoholism and drug abuse.

• Kurt Cobain - musician, Nirvana, heroin overdose and a shotgun wound in head. Also theories for murder.

• Natasha Collins (31) - actress - cocaine overdose.

• Brian Cole - musician, the Association, heroin overdose.

• Brian Connolly - musician, Sweet, liver damage caused by long-term substance abuse and chronic alcoholism.

• Megan Connolly (27) - actress, heroin overdose.

• Pamela Courson - common law wife of Jim Morrison of The Doors, heroin overdose.

• Cowboy (real name Keith Wiggins) - musician, Grandmaster Flash & the Furious Five, drug overdose.

• Carl Crack (30) - musician, Atari Teenage Riot, drug overdose.

• Darby Crash (22) - punk musician, of The Germs, suicide by heroin overdose.

• Robbin Crosby (42) - musician, ex-Ratt, contracted HIV as a result of long-time heroin addiction and died of a heroin overdose.

• Dalida (54) - singer, suicide, barbiturates overdose (sleeping pills).

• Dorothy Dandridge (42) - actress, singer, anti-depressant overdose.

• Eileen Davies - alternative rock singer/ songwriter, heroin overdose.

• Jesse Ed Davis (43) - guitarist, session musician, drug overdose.

• Paul Demayo (38) - professional bodybuilder, heroin overdose.

• Ted Demme (38) - film director, heart attack, small amount of cocaine taken may have contributed.

• Rick Dey - musician, the Vejtables, February Sunshine, the Wilde Knights and the Merry-Go-Round.

• Dimwit - musician, D.O.A., drug overdose.

• Teri Diver (29) - pornographic actress, cardiac arrest caused by overdose of migraine medication.

• Kiki Djan - musician, Osibisa, drug addiction and AIDS.

• DJ Screw (29) - musician, heart attack thought to be result of codeine overdose.

• Desmond Donnelly (53) - politician/ businessman/ journalist, suicide under influence of alcohol/ overdose of barbiturates.

• Tommy Dorsey (51) - jazz musician and bandleader, choked to death while sleeping with the aid of drugs.

• John Dougherty - musician, Flipper, heroin overdose.

• Eric Douglas - stand-up comedian, "acute intoxication" by the effects of alcohol, tranquilizers and painkillers.

• Nick Drake (26) - musician, anti-depressant overdose, disputed suicide.

• Michael Dransfield (24) - poet, heroin overdose.

• Bobby Driscoll (31) - actor, heart failure, long term drug abuse.

• Kevin DuBrow (52) - rock vocalist, cocaine overdose.

• Bobby Duncum, Jr. - professional wrestler, prescription drug overdose.

• Anthony Durante - professional wrestler, drugs overdose.

• Jeanne Eagels (35) - actress, alcohol and/or heroin abuse.

• Tommy Edwards (47) - musician, liner notes for greatest hits album claim death due to alcoholism

• John Entwistle (57) - musician, bassist for the Who, died from heart failure brought upon by cocaine use.

• Brian Epstein (32) - Manager of The Beatles, drug overdose.

• Howie Epstein (47) - musician, ex-bassist with Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers, heroin overdose[3].

• Rick Evers - musician, drummer and songwriter, was married to Carole King, heroin overdose.

• Chris Farley (33) - comedian who rose to fame on Saturday Night Live, cocaine and morphine overdose (speedball).

• Pete Farndon (31) - musician, the Pretenders, drowned/ heroin overdose.

• Rainer Werner Fassbinder - playwright, director, cocaine overdose (possible suicide).

• Brenda Fassie (39) - singer, cocaine overdose.

• W.C. Fields (67) - performer and actor, complications of alcoholism.

• Keith Ferguson - musician, the Fabulous Thunderbirds.

• Aaron Flahavan - professional football goalkeeper, died driving drunk in 2001.

• Althea Flynt - co-publisher of Hustler magazine, drowned after passing out after drug overdose.

• Zac Foley (31) - musician, EMF, heroin, cocaine, ecstasy, temazepam, barbiturates and alcohol in bloodstream.

• Katy French (24) - supermodel and socialite, cocaine use.

• Sigmund Freud (83) - neurologist, long-term cocaine use, physician assisted morphine overdose (euthanasia).

• Rory Gallagher (47) - musician, Taste, died of pnemonia and a liver failure, caused by side effects of a combination of doctor-prescribed drugs.

• Paul Gardiner - musician, Tubeway Army, drug overdose.

• Judy Garland (47) - singer and actress, disputed drug overdose as cause of death.

• Lowell George (34) - musician, Little Feat, heart attack - habitual drug abuse probable cause.

• Talitha Getty (30) - actress (Barbarella) and socialite (Wife of John Paul Getty Jr), heroin overdose in Rome 1971.

• Andy Gibb (30) - singer, younger brother of the Bee Gees; cardiac damage strongly exacerbated by cocaine and alcohol abuse.

• Simon Gipps-Kent - actor, morphine poisoning, suspected drugs overdose.

• Candy Givens - musician, Zephyr, drowned in jacuzzi after passing out from a mix of alcohol and quaaludes.

• Trevor Goddard - former professional boxer turned actor, cocaine, heroin, hydrocodone, and diazepam overdose.

• Alexander Godunov (45) - actor, died of alcoholism.

• Dwayne Goettel (31) - musician, Skinny Puppy, heroin overdose.

• Paul Gonsalves (53) - jazz tenor saxophonist, Duke Ellington, narcotics overdose

• Lucy Grealy (39) - poet, presumed accidental drug overdose.

• Sean Greenway - indie musician, member of GOD, heroin overdose

• Gribouille (26) - singer, drugs overdose.

• Eddie Guerrero (38) - professional wrestler, previous drug use led to heart attack.

• Stacy Guess - musician, the Squirrel Nut Zippers, heroin overdose.

• Clinton Haines - noted computer hacker, heroin overdose on 21st birthday.

• Paul Hammond - musician, Atomic Rooster, drug overdose (suicide).

• Bobby Hatfield - musician, The Righteous Brothers, heart attack triggered by cocaine overdose.

• Tim Hardin - folk musician, heroin and morphine overdose.

• Brynn Hartman - wife and murderer of comedian Phil Hartman, suicide after cocaine and alcohol.

• Alex Harvey - musician,The Sensational Alex Harvey Band, liver damage caused by alcohol abuse.

• Phyllis Haver - actress, intentional barbiturate overdose

• James Hayden (29) - actor, heroin overdose.

• Joey Hawthorne - professional poker player, drug overdose.

• Eddie Hazel - musician, guitarist, of the P-funk collective, liver failure.

• Mitch Hedberg - comedian, multiple drug toxicity (cocaine and heroin).

• Helno (real name Noel Rota) - musician, Les Negresses Vertes, died trying to overcome serious drug addiction.

• Tim Hemensley - indie musician, member of GOD, heroin overdose

• Margaux Hemingway (41) - actress, disputed suicide, overdose of phenobarbital.

• Jimi Hendrix (27) - rock and roll musician, respiratory arrest caused by alcohol and barbiturate overdose and vomit inhalation.

• Curt Hennig - professional wrestler, cocaine overdose.

• Gregory Herbet - musician, Blood, Sweat & Tears.

• Gino Hernandez (28) - wrestler, cocaine overdose.

• Bob Hite - musician, Canned Heat, heart attack.

• Randy Jo Hobbs - musician.

• Abbie Hoffman - self-identified communo-anarchist, social and political activist in the United States, suicide by overdose of Phenobarbital pills

• El Duce Hoke - musician, drummer and singer in the Mentors, hit by train when alcohol intoxicated (disputed murder theories).

• Billie Holiday (44) - jazz singer died from cirrhosis of the liver attributed to longtime alcohol and heroin abuse.

• Hollywood Fats - musician, heroin overdose.

• Gary Holton (33) - actor, Auf Wiedersehen, Pet, alcohol and morphine overdose.

• James Honeyman-Scott - musician, the Pretenders, cocaine overdose.

• Shannon Hoon (28) - musician, singer in Blind Melon, cocaine overdose.

• Howard Hughes (70) - aviator, engineer, industrialist, movie producer, playboy, liver failure - autopsy showed lethal amount of codeine and also valium in body.

• Gertrude Hullett - died of barbiturate overdose while being treated by suspected serial killer John Bodkin Adams.

• Harold Hunter (31) - professional skateboarder and actor, apparent cocaine overdose.

• Phyllis Hyman - singer, suicide involving lethal amounts of alcohol and temazepam.

• Julio Jaramillo (42) - singer, liver damage caused by alcohol.

• Steven Ronald "Stevo" Jensen - musician, The Vandals, prescription drug overdose.

• Joëlle, American born French singer, drug overdose.

• Anissa Jones (18) - actress (played "Buffy" on American TV series Family Affair), accidential overdose of cocaine, angel dust, Quaaludes and Seconal.

• Bethany Jones - photographer and makeup artist, complications of muscular dystrophy coupled with injection of methamphetamine.

• Brian Jones - musician, the Rolling Stones, drowned, very likely due to alcohol and barbiturate intoxication.

• Rob Jones (a.k.a. The Bass Thing) - musician - former bassist of The Wonder Stuff, heroin/cocaine/alcohol overdose.

• Russell Jones (a.k.a. Ol' Dirty Bastard) - hip hop musician, accidential overdose, cocaine and prescription painkiller[4].

• Janis Joplin (27) - rock and roll and blues musician, heroin overdose.

• John Kahn - musician, Jerry Garcia Band, complications of heart disease, heroin, cocaine, and antidepressants found in his body.

• Wells Kelly - musician, Orleans, heroin overdose.

• David Kennedy - fourth child of Robert F. Kennedy, cocaine and Demerol overdose.

• Jack Kerouac - writer/poet, complications due to alcoholism.

• Bernard Kettlewell - lepidopterist and medical doctor, drug overdose.

• Dorothy Kilgallen, Irish-American journalist and television game show panelist, fatal combination of alcohol and Seconal, perhaps concurrent with a heart attack

• John Kordic - hockey player, died during struggle with police after cocaine overdose.

• Paul Kossoff - musician, Free, drug-related heart problems.

• Eddie Kurdziel - musician, Redd Kross, drug overdose.

• Alan Ladd (50) - actor, acute overdose of alcohol and hypnotic barbiturates, probable suicide [5].

• Arcadia Lake - pornographic actress, drug overdose.

• Barbara La Marr - actress, drug-related death in Hollywood.

• Karen Lancaume - pornographic actress, overdose of temazepam (suicide).

• Carole Landis - actress, overdose of barbiturates (suicide).

• Peter Laughner - musician, Pere Ubu, acute pancreatitis.

• Heath Ledger (28) - actor, accidental death Combined Drug Intoxication of various prescription drugs, including oxycodone, hydrocodone, temazepam, and others[6].

• Bruce Lee (32) - actor, martial artist, died of acute cerebral edema due to a reaction to compounds present in the prescription pain killing drug Equagesic.

• Rudy Lewis - musician, the Drifters.

• Gerald Levert - R&B singer, son of O'Jays singer Eddie Levert - accidental combination of prescription medications.

• Frank X. Leyendecker - illustrator, drug overdose.

• Debbie Linden - glamour model & actress, heroin overdose.

• Ruan Lingyu -

• Eugene Lipscomb - American football player, heroin overdose.

• Mike Lockwood - professional wrestler, choked on his own vomit after overdose of painkillers and alcohol.

• Trinity Loren (real name: Joyce Evelyn McPherson) - porn star, model, and stripper, accidental overdose of prescription painkillers.

• Bela Lugosi (73) - actor, drug-related heart attack.

• Zoe Tamerlis Lund - former child musical prodigy turned model, actress, and writer, heart failure due to heroin use.

• Donyale Luna (34) - first notable African American supermodel & actress, drug overdose.

• Frankie Lymon - musician, doo *** singer, heroin overdose.

• Aaron Lynch - writer on memetics, opiate-based painkiller overdose (coroner ruled accidental death.)

• Phil Lynott (36) - musician, Thin Lizzy, health breakdown caused by a heroin overdose. (speedball.)

• Billy Mackenzie - musician, the Associates, overdosed on temazepam, amitriptyline, and paracetamol (suicide).

• Chris Mainwaring - Australian Footballer, alleged accidental overdose.

• Bibek Maitra - politician, drug overdose.

• Steve Marriott - musician, The Small Faces and Humble Pie, drug related fire.

• Sherri Martel - professional wrestler, accidental overdose with multiple drugs in her system, including high amounts of oxycodone.

• Billy Martin - Major League Baseball player and manager, alcohol-related auto accident.

• James McCallum Bronson - stepson of actor Charles Bronson, drug overdose.

• David McComb (36) - musician, The Triffids, heroin overdose.

• Jimmy McCulloch - musician with Wings, guitarist, heroin overdose.

• Ron "Pigpen" McKernan - musician, the Grateful Dead, gastrointestinal hemorrhage linked to alcohol abuse.

• Robbie McIntosh - musician, Average White Band, heroin overdose.

• Clyde McPhatter - singer.

• Aimee Semple McPherson - Canadian-born evangelist and media sensation in the 1920s and 1930s, overdose of prescription barbiturates.

• Jonathan Melvoin - touring keyboardist for the Smashing Pumpkins, heroin overdose.

• Big Maceo Merriweather (47) - blues pianist, chronic alcoholism

• Mighty Spoiler - calypso music singer, alcohol-related illness.

• Miss Christine - musician, The GTOs, heroin overdose.

• Amedeo Modigliani - painter, tubercular meningitis - exacerbated by poverty, overworking, and excessive use of alcohol and narcotics.

• Joëlle Mogensen - singer, drug overdose.

• Marilyn Monroe (36) - actress, overdose of barbiturate-based sleeping pills.

• Ken Montgomery - musician, D.O.A.

• Keith Moon - musician, the Who, accidental overdose on anti-seizure medication prescribed for alcoholism.

• Edith Alice Morrell - died of morphine overdose while being treated by suspected serial killer John Bodkin Adams.

• Chester Morris - actor, drug overdose.

• Jim Morrison (27) - musician, The Doors, heart failure, alcohol abuse (cause and fact of death disputed).

• Billy Murcia - musician, the New York Dolls, accidental suffocation after drugs and alcohol.

• Brent Mydland - musician, keyboardist, of the Grateful Dead, cocaine/morphine overdose.

• Modest Mussorgsky - classical composer, alcohol.

• Delphine Neid - musician, The Nuns, drugs overdose.

• Joachim Nielsen (36) - rock musician in the band Jokke & Valentinerne, drug overdose

• Bradley Nowell (28) - musician, Sublime, heroin overdose.

• Jack Nance (53) - actor, alcohol addiction.

• Hugh O'Connor - actor, of In the Heat of the Night TV series, suicide under influence of cocaine.

• Lani O'Grady - actress, of Eight Is Enough - multiple drug intoxication.

• Johnny O'Keefe - musician/ singer, heart attack after prescription drugs addiction.

• Christina Onassis - daughter of the billionaire Aristotle Onassis, pulmonary edema, caused by constant drug abuse and dramatic weight changes.

• Charlie Ondras - musician, Unsane.

• Bryan Ottoson - musician, American Head Charge, accidental prescription-drug overdose.

• Malcolm Owen - singer, lyricist of the Ruts, heroin overdose.

• John Panozzo (47) - musician, drummer, Styx, complications of alcohol abuse.

• Marco Pantani (34) - cyclist, Tour de France winner; acute cocaine intoxication.

• Charlie Parker (34) - jazz musician; the official cause of death was (lobar) pneumonia and a bleeding ulcer, his death was hastened by his drug and alcohol abuse

• Robert Pastorelli (49) - television actor, heroin overdose.

• Gram Parsons (26) - country musician, of the Byrds and the Flying Burrito Brothers, overdose, purportedly of morphine and tequila.

• Jon-Jon Paulos - musician, the Buckinghams.

• Chris Penn (40) - actor (Reservoir Dogs), brother of Sean Penn, heart disease and prescription drugs.

• Art Pepper (56) - jazz musician.

• John Pulcine (76) - Painter, drug overdose.

• Jack Pickford (36) - actor, syphillis & alcohol and drug abuse.

• Kristen Pfaff (27) - musician, ex-member of Hole, heroin overdose.

• Esther Phillips (48) - musician, singer, liver and kidney failure due to alcohol and heroin dependency.

• John Phillips (65) - musician, of the Mamas and the Papas, heart failure due to lifetime of alcohol and narcotics abuse.

• River Phoenix (23) - actor, overdose of heroin and cocaine (speedball).

• Jeffrey Lee Pierce (37) - musician, the Gun Club.

• Rob Pilatus (32) - musician, Milli Vanilli, drug overdose.

• Dana Plato (34) - actress, of Diff'rent Strokes, suicide - overdose of muscle relaxant Vanadom (carisoprodol)and Vicodin.

• Pola - model, appeared in Vogue and Cosmopolitan - heroin overdose in 1975.

• Jackson Pollock (44) - painter; killed in a single-car accident while driving drunk.

• Darrell Porter (50) - professional baseball catcher (Kansas City Royals and St. Louis Cardinals) turned broadcaster, cocaine overdose.

• Freddie Prinze (22) - comic, actor (Chico and the Man), self-inflicted gunshot wound while under the influence of Quaaludes.

• Robert Quine - musician, suicide by heroin overdose.

• Glenn Quinn - actor, heroin overdose.

• Carl Radle (37) - bass guitarist, Derek and the Dominos, Eric Clapton, kidney disease due to long term narcotics and alcohol abuse

• Dee Dee Ramone (50) - musician, the Ramones, heroin overdose.

• James Ray - singer, drug overdose.

• Johnnie Ray (63) - musician, liver failure caused by alcoholism.

• Michael Reeves - film director, barbiturate overdose.

• Wallace Reid (31) - actor, flu caused by morphine addiction.

• Jimmy Reilly (17) - musician, Watertower West and Tony And The Tigers, heroin and alcohol overdose.

• Elis Regina (36) - singer, fatal alcohol and temazepam interaction.

• Brad Renfro (25) - actor, overdose of heroin and morphine[7].

• Rob Graves Ritter - musician, Thelonius Monster, Gun Club, the Bags, 45 Grave.

• Rachel Roberts (53) - actress - barbiturate overdose (suicide).

• Andy Rogers - musician, bassist with Johnny Cash, heroin overdose.

• Don Rogers (23) - American football player, cocaine overdose.

• Peter Rosen - musician, War.

• Alma Rubens - actress, flu caused by heroin addiction.

• Michael Rudetsky - musician, keyboardist, Culture Club, heroin overdose.

• David Ruffin (50) - musician, the Temptations, drug overdose.

• George Sanders (65) - actor, barbiturates overdose (suicide).

• Catya Sassoon (33) - model and actress, overdose of hydromorphone and cocaine.

• Joe Schermie - musician, Three Dog Night, heart attack resulting from long-term drug abuse

• Bon Scott (33) - musician, AC/DC, aspiration brought on by alcohol intoxication.

• Ronnie Scott (69) - jazz tenor saxophonist and jazz-club owner, died accidentally from a mixture of brandy and temazepam.

• Jean Seberg - actress, barbiturate and alcohol overdose (suicide).

• Jason Sears - musician, Rich Kids on LSD, treatment with natural drugs.

• Rod Scurry (36) - Major League Baseball relief pitcher, cocaine-induced heart attack.

• Edie Sedgwick - actress.

• Nerine Shatner - wife of actor William Shatner, drowned in swimming pool while intoxicated and with traces of diazepam in bloodstream.

• Will Shatter - musician, Fliper, heroin overdose.

• Bobby Sheehan - musician, Blues Traveler, drug overdose.

• Eric Show - baseball player, cocaine and heroin overdose (speedball).

• Pavlos Sidiropoulos - rock musician, heroin overdose.

• Judee Sill - folk musician, heroin overdose.

• Don Simpson - film producer, heart attack, reports of 20 drugs in his body at time of death.

• Tom Simpson - road racing cyclist, dehydration and exhaustion while cycling, amphetamines and alcohol usage.

• Hillel Slovak (26) - musician, Red Hot Chili Peppers, heroin overdose.

• Anna Nicole Smith (39) - Playboy playmate, actress, reality show star, lethal combination of chloral hydrate and various benzodiazepines.

• Robert "Snoopy" Smith (46) - Saxophonist and husband of jazz and blues singer, Fritzi Presley, died in Biloxi, MS of heart attack after a lifetime of alcohol abuse.

• Freddy Soto - comedian, writer and actor, mixture of alcohol, alprazolam, and fentanyl.

• Epic Soundtracks - musician, Swell Maps.

• Louie Spicolli - professional wrestler, choked on vomit after drugs and alcohol overdose.

• Layne Staley (34) - musician, Alice in Chains, cocaine and heroin overdose (speedball).

• Joey Stefano (26) - pornographic actor, overdose of cocaine, morphine, heroin and ketamine.

• Inger Stevens - actress, suicide - overdose of sleeping pills.

• Rory Storm - musician, suicide - sleeping pills overdose.

• Margaret Sullavan (48) - actress, deliberate barbiturate overdose.

• Paige Summers - pornographic model & actress, a drug overdose from a combination of the painkillers codeine and oxycodone.[8]

• Screaming Lord Sutch - singer and politician, suicide following Prozac overdose.

• Zoë Tamerlis Lund - musician turned model, heart failure after sustained heroin and cocaine abuse.

• Warren Tartaglia (Walid al-Taha) - jazz musician & one of six founders of Moorish Orthodox Church of America, heroin overdose.

• Chase Tatum (34) former wrestler for the now-defunct World Championship Wrestling organization, apparent drug overdose.

• Vinnie Taylor - musician, Sha Na Na, heroin overdose.

• Gary Thain - musician, Uriah Heep, drug overdose.

• Jason Thirsk (28) - musician, Pennywise, suicide after depression and alcoholism treatment.

• Jotie T'Hooft - poet, drug overdose, suicide.

• Johnny Thunders - musician, the New York Dolls, alcohol and methadone poisoning.

• Dylan Thomas - poet, chronic alcoholism.

• John Thompson - poet, "a brutal mix of barbiturates and liquor."

• Georg Trakl - playwright, cocaine overdose.

• D. M. Turner (34) - author/psychonaut, drowned in a bathtub while on ketamine.

• Ike Turner (76) - musician/producer, died from cocaine overdose with high blood pressure and emphysema as contributing factors[9].

• Dick Twardzik - bebop jazz pianist, heroin overdose.

• Stu Ungar (45) - Three-time World Series of Poker Main Event winner, heart condition caused by long-term cocaine abuse.

• Enrique Urquijo - singer, drug overdose.

• Paul Vaessen - former professional footballer with ****nal, post mortem found he had a high levels of methadone, heroin, temazepam, diazepam, and alcohol in his bloodstream.

• Lupe Vélez - actress, secobarbital overdose (suicide).

• Michael VerMeulen - magazine editor, drug overdose.

• Sid Vicious (21) - musician, the Sex Pistols, heroin overdose, disputed suicide

• Gene Vincent - rock and roll musician, liver damage caused by alcohol.

• Robert Hudson Walker - actor, died suddenly after being administered sodium amytal by his doctor.

• Shelby Walker (31) - female boxer and Martial arts fighter, apparent medicine overdose.

• Jeremy Michael Ward - musician, The Mars Volta, apparent heroin overdose.

• Dinah Washington - musician, singer, overdose of diet pills and alcohol.

• Dave Waymer (34) - American football defensive-back, cocaine-induced heart attack.

• Michael Weber - lead guitarist of The Seminal Rats, heroin overdose.

• Rachel Whitear - student, heroin overdose led to large-scale anti-drugs press campaign in Britain.

• Brett Whiteley - artist, heroin and temazepam overdose.

• Kurt Winter - guitarist with The Guess Who, kidney failure after sustained drug abuse

• Chris Whitley (45) - guitarist, songwriter, complications from lung cancer caused by excessive cigarette smoking

• Keith Whitley (33) - country musician, alcohol poisoning.

• Danny Whitten - musician, Crazy Horse, drug overdose or drugs with alcohol (disputed).

• Dale Whittington - racecar driver, drug overdose.

• Alan Wilson - musician, Canned Heat, drug overdose (possible suicide).

• Dennis Wilson (39) - musician, The Beach Boys, alcohol-related drowning

• Hank Williams (29) - musician, drugs and probably alcohol.

• Kenneth Williams (62) - actor, author and comedian of Carry On fame, overdose of barbiturates (accidental or suicide).

• Linda Wong - pornographic actress, overdose on alprazolam, chloral hydrate and alcohol.

• Andrew Wood - musician, lead singer Mother Love Bone, Malfunkshun, heroin overdose.

• Anna Wood (15) - Australian schoolgirl, cerebral edema, caused by water intoxication and resultant hyponatremia after taking ecstasy.

• Natalie Wood - actress, drowned when intoxicated.

• Paula Yates (40) - British TV presenter & author, partner of deceased INXS star, Michael Hutchence, heroin overdose.

• Stefan Zweig Austrian writer, suicide with his wife on exile in Brazil during WWII.


----------



## Golden Man (Sep 10, 2005)

Who is golden boy and why are you cutting and posting athletes mans,people etc who have passed away on this thread.Just my view but a little tastless especially as most of the time it aint usage more abuse as already said.Its accepted here as people use it so what I doubt very much if people came on this thread and board and said I abuse gear take it like smarties or I inject every 2hours a ridiculou high dosage(sorry not aware of quantites and products) that people would find this acceptable.Its that simple...even I get it natural and all!!


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## essexboy (Sep 7, 2008)

Yeah ok romper, WE ALL KNOW that cocaine, heroin etc can kill.Geez.The point of this thread was isues relating to steroids.If you like ill post a list of deaths caused by alcohol abuse.ITS NOT RELAVANT


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## dmcc (Nov 25, 2007)

Lupé Vélez didn't die of a drug overdose. Her last meal was a burrito buffet washed down with a truckload of tequila. It didn't mix well and when she was running to the toilet to barf, she tripped and cracked her skull on the toilet bowl.

See, Frasier really was educational...


----------



## freddee (Mar 2, 2009)

every time you buy a magazine outside, those specific to natural bodybuilding, you yourself are endorsing the use of AAS, because 99% of them pictured did not get to were they are by taking what ever supplement they are touting, and say they achieved there gains in 12 weeks.

having said that, nothing compares to dedication, session after session in the gym, and the disipline to to keep a strict diet.


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## Tommy10 (Feb 17, 2009)

Pscarb said:


> I love it when these debates are on the board as those doing the preaching seem to think that those using steroids are either abusing the drugs or have no common sense and are kidding themselves to the effects....
> 
> I particular like guys who have used in the past and now condemn others for their steroid use.
> 
> ...


You first took steroids at 18?....wow...how did u know where to start?

does BB run in the family?


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

freddee said:


> every time you buy a magazine outside, those specific to natural bodybuilding, you yourself are endorsing the use of AAS, because 99% of them pictured did not get to were they are by taking what ever supplement they are touting, and say they achieved there gains in 12 weeks.
> 
> having said that, nothing compares to dedication, session after session in the gym, and the disipline to to keep a strict diet.


no one is endorsing steroids by buying magazines that are non natural don't be an idiot.......



Pelayo said:


> You first took steroids at 18?....wow...how did u know where to start?
> 
> does BB run in the family?


i didn't that was my point if you read my post it said i made alot of mistakes i took gear because of peer pressure, no BB does not run in my family can i ask why you would ask this?


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## Tommy10 (Feb 17, 2009)

Pscarb said:


> no one is endorsing steroids by buying magazines that are non natural don't be an idiot.......
> 
> i didn't that was my point if you read my post it said i made alot of mistakes i took gear because of peer pressure, *no BB does not run in my family can i ask why you would ask this?*


Nothin really meant by the question, just wondered how you got in to BB at a young age, what had inspired you to start so young, wish I had started the gym a lot younger. :thumbup1:


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## Was_Eric (Jul 3, 2008)

I agree with Essex boy when he says it isn't relevant to talk about other ways to die (or affect your health)

I am contributing to this thread because I am still trying to make my own mind up and for that reason I like the fact that this board is so open about steroids

The question I am trying to answer for myself is - is taking steroids risking my health?

I also have other questions like - **MOD EDIT - you cannot ask these questions on the board**


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

Pelayo said:


> Nothin really meant by the question, just wondered how you got in to BB at a young age, what had inspired you to start so young, wish I had started the gym a lot younger. :thumbup1:


i started training because i was 9stone soaking wet and my best mate lived with Billy payne who was huge and nearly a Pro as i said peer pressure......



erics44 said:


> I agree with Essex boy when he says it isn't relevant to talk about other ways to die (or affect your health)


it is actually mate as many look into the health risk's with taking steroids(rightfully so) but then don't bat an eye when they drink alcohol or eat foods will loads of trans fats it is relevant because many will drink to excess or get fat which both cause more deaths than steroids will ever do then slate the health risks to AAS......


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## stig77 (May 14, 2009)

I'm new to this site, came across it while researching certain type of steroid. I found it that helpful that i joined!I have seen the different topics you can talk about and to be fair steroids is only a small part of them. Thanks 2 all u guys for your help getting me on the right dosage and ensuring the safety of myself while injecting. Steroids are my choice, i have not been influenced by this website alone, that is all i have to say really!


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## Was_Eric (Jul 3, 2008)

Pscarb said:


> it is actually mate as many look into the health risk's with taking steroids(rightfully so) but then don't bat an eye when they drink alcohol or eat foods will loads of trans fats it is relevant because many will drink to excess or get fat which both cause more deaths than steroids will ever do then slate the health risks to AAS......


Yes I agree, people do things every day that are definitely more detrimental to the health than taking steroids (in a controlled way), and it is definitely unjust that steroids get such bad press

I think the question is tho - is taking steroids a health risk and if it is, considering this is a health focussed sport, is taking steroids not a contradiction.

like I said tho I don't know the answers I am still trying to make my own mind up

and sorry for the other questions, I wrote them in jest although I should of thought about it before I posted


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## Was_Eric (Jul 3, 2008)

stig77 said:


> I'm new to this site, came across it while researching certain type of steroid. I found it that helpful that i joined!I have seen the different topics you can talk about and to be fair steroids is only a small part of them. Thanks 2 all u guys for your help getting me on the right dosage and ensuring the safety of myself while injecting. Steroids are my choice, i have not been influenced by this website alone, that is all i have to say really!


good first post fella


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## BigDom86 (Jul 27, 2008)

is taking steroids a health risk? no

is abusing steroids a health risk? yes

is drinking alcohol a health risk? no

is abusing alcohol a health risk? yes

there is a big difference between sensible use and abuse. I study biochemistry and recently we have been studying the use of androgens in mice with heart complications, and it has actually been shown to aid in a healthy heart and cardiovascular system. some studies even contradict the decrease in HDL and increase LDL and infact show the opposite.


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## ares1 (Apr 27, 2008)

the question should not be "why is steroid use so excepted here?" but, "why is are the media & 90% of the population so against using steroids?"


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## Was_Eric (Jul 3, 2008)

CarbWhore said:


> the question should not be "why is steroid use so excepted here?" but, "why is are the media & 90% of the population so against using steroids?"


i dont know if this question has been raise yet on this thread but do you think that steroids / performance enhancing drugs should be banned from professional sport?


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## BigDom86 (Jul 27, 2008)

olympics i think it should be banned yes.

other sports like nfl etc i dont think so as it makes the sport what it is


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## ares1 (Apr 27, 2008)

erics44 said:


> i dont know if this question has been raise yet on this thread but do you think that steroids / performance enhancing drugs should be banned from professional sport?


No, if they werent banned - it would create a trully level playing field...

also... it would make the boxing more interesting if they gave them cheque drops before a fight, the heavyweight division seems so bland these days.


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## Prodiver (Nov 14, 2008)

BigDom86 said:


> ...
> 
> there is a big difference between sensible use and abuse. I study biochemistry and recently we have been studying the use of androgens in mice with heart complications, and *it has actually been shown to aid in a healthy heart and cardiovascular system. some studies even contradict the decrease in HDL and increase LDL and infact show the opposite*.


This is really interesting, BigDom! 

I came across some references to such findings a while back but can't find them - can you point us to some, please? Have any human studies been done?


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## BigDom86 (Jul 27, 2008)

im going back to uni tomorrow for a week so ill get a look at the studies then, its for a pharmacology paper. i think there were a few human studies. the studies of use of androgens were in mice. but in reference to LDL and HDL it was human studies. i remember one study well which said of protection to dying cardiac myocytes


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## Was_Eric (Jul 3, 2008)

CarbWhore said:


> No, if they werent banned - it would create a trully level playing field....


Would it not become question of who takes the better drugs?



CarbWhore said:


> also... it would make the boxing more interesting if they gave them cheque drops before a fight, the heavyweight division seems so bland these days.


 :lol: true, although 20th June is a very nice prospect for a heaveyweight title fight


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## BigDom86 (Jul 27, 2008)

erics44 said:


> Would it not become question of who takes the better drugs?


true this is what i think has happened to pro bodybuilding now ie mr olympia etc. i think its now about who is most willing to take the most amount of gear


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## Prodiver (Nov 14, 2008)

BigDom86 said:


> im going back to uni tomorrow for a week so ill get a look at the studies then, its for a pharmacology paper. i think there were a few human studies. the studies of use of androgens were in mice. but in reference to LDL and HDL it was human studies. i remember one study well which said of protection to dying cardiac myocytes


Great, thanks! :thumb:

It's real studies like these that can increase our knowledge and take our sport forward...


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## Was_Eric (Jul 3, 2008)

BigDom86 said:


> true this is what i think has happened to pro bodybuilding now ie mr olympia etc. i think its now about who is most willing to take the most amount of gear


perhaps this is what makes it dangerous and turns people against steroids

for instance if my son got into bodybuilding any steroid use would worry me, how far is he going with it? is he putting the physique rewards before his health?


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## ares1 (Apr 27, 2008)

BigDom86 said:


> true this is what i think has happened to pro bodybuilding now ie mr olympia etc. i think its now about who is most willing to take the most amount of gear


really? so it has nothing to do with how hard they train and how much dedication they have to diet?

i know plenty of people who thrash the gear :whistling: and have got nowhere from it.

let the athletes use - less conspiracy more sport :beer:


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## BigDom86 (Jul 27, 2008)

lol dont get me wrong there at the top of their game in terms of training, diet, dedication etc.

lets not forget alot of these athletes are using many different things aswell as gear, this again is where the problem comes from. how many bodybuilders have died from steroid use? none. however if you look at wrestling there have been numerous deaths, eventhough this is associated with steroids it is most likely not true as wrestlers take alot of other substances, though gear may contribute to it.

@prodiver no problem i get full access to uni to any resources i want


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## ares1 (Apr 27, 2008)

BigDom86 said:


> lol dont get me wrong there at the top of their game in terms of training, diet, dedication etc.
> 
> lets not forget alot of these athletes are using many different things aswell as gear, this again is where the problem comes from. how many bodybuilders have died from steroid use? none. however if you look at wrestling there have been numerous deaths, eventhough this is associated with steroids it is most likely not true as wrestlers take alot of other substances, though gear may contribute to it.
> 
> @prodiver no problem i get full access to uni to any resources i want


yes the main factor with wrestlers is they dont live like bodybuilders. they use horrendous ammounts of "uppers" and then silly ammounts of "downers" to counteract these.


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## Was_Eric (Jul 3, 2008)

BigDom86 said:


> how many bodybuilders have died from steroid use? none.


is this true?


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## essexboy (Sep 7, 2008)

BigDom86 said:


> lol dont get me wrong there at the top of their game in terms of training, diet, dedication etc.
> 
> lets not forget alot of these athletes are using many different things aswell as gear, this again is where the problem comes from. how many bodybuilders have died from steroid use? none


i think that statements rather naive.i personally knew three bb who have died from conditions, not usually atributable to young men with no previous health issues.Its direct causation, where the grey area exists.

If i wander drunk across the road, and get hit by a bus,whats to blame, The booze or the bus?

Just for the record im not anti-aas.


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## Dandy-uk (Apr 12, 2009)

i do think that this is a pointless thread lol if someones gonna use there gonna use if someone is against there against this could go on foooorever  do wot u do be safe and those who are against be against but keep it to yaselfs  i dont use but i dont have any argument on this


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## d4ead (Nov 3, 2008)

personally i think stanco's original comment was deliberately insulting and derogative and was made only to get a load of abusive comments back.

I dont get the attitude at all.

gear is accepted here because its accepted in professional body building. Accepted on the stage in competition.

If all competitions were natural only, i'm sure the body building community would change.

if gear use is not for you then 'bully for you' you can proudly tag yourself as a natural body builder and enter natural competitions.

Im sorry if this seems bad but i really felt insulted and flamed by his original comment. Not only has he insulted me and many of the people i class as friends here but he also insulted just about every professional out there.

I would say most body builders that use gear care just as much for there health as those that don't.

In every field there are abusers.

while i understand you are more then entitled to your opinion, i still feel that you original comment was like walking into a gay bar and screaming 'all ******* are aids ridden scum, why do you tolerate them here.'

thats used as an example and i would like to point out that i do not agree with the above insult in any way.


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## Big Dawg (Feb 24, 2008)

Bottom line - steroids make you cool! End of.


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## ares1 (Apr 27, 2008)

erics44 said:


> is this true?


To a certain extent, most of the "young deaths" in bbing can be attributed to diuretics eg Andi Munzer.

if you have a pre existing medical problem steroids may exasperate this, steroids may also cause the effects of recreational drugs to be more severe for the health.


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## d4ead (Nov 3, 2008)

AlasTTTair said:


> Bottom line - steroids make you cool! End of.


your the man ttt


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## Was_Eric (Jul 3, 2008)

CarbWhore said:


> To a certain extent, most of the "young deaths" in bbing can be attributed to diuretics eg Andi Munzer.
> 
> if you have a pre existing medical problem steroids may exasperate this, steroids may also cause the effects of recreational drugs to be more severe for the health.


In my quest to find an answer to the question - could i be seriously risking my health in taking steroids - your post above points to yes


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

essexboy said:


> i think that statements rather naive.i personally knew three bb who have died from conditions, not usually atributable to young men with no previous health issues.Its direct causation, where the grey area exists.
> 
> If i wander drunk across the road, and get hit by a bus,whats to blame, The booze or the bus?
> 
> Just for the record im not anti-aas.


Steroids do have risks but to die from them is a stretch to make any assumption about the 3 men your speaking of you need to look at every aspect of their life and their steroid use...

did they use to much to soon?

did they do a regular PCT

did they get bloods complete?

where they fat/obese

Did they drink

Did they smoke

Did they do any cardio vascualr exercise these all come into play and have to be considered before any assumptions are made.....



AlasTTTair said:


> Bottom line - steroids make you cool! End of.


joking or not this is the reason why more teens are using or should i say abusing steroids and one of the reasons we as a whole are getting more and more bad press....to be honest this is the most stupid thing to say on a board that can influence young people thinking of using steroids


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## Big Dawg (Feb 24, 2008)

^ Pretty sure if someone like JW were to make a joke like that there wouldn't be a problem.


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## Was_Eric (Jul 3, 2008)

Pscarb said:


> Steroids do have risks but to die from them is a stretch to make any assumption about the 3 men your speaking of you need to look at every aspect of their life and their steroid use...
> 
> did they use to much to soon?
> 
> ...


maybe the world is so against the use of steriods because, although if used properly they can be much more of a benefit than harmful, it is easy to make a mistake and seriously damage your health?

i feel the need to point out again that im not trying to cause any conflict I am just trying to find out if this negative press is justified and how safe I actually am taking steroids


----------



## Big Dawg (Feb 24, 2008)

erics44 said:


> maybe the world is so against the use of steriods because, although if used properly they can be much more of a benefit than harmful, it is easy to make a mistake and seriously damage your health?
> 
> i feel the need to point out again that im not trying to cause any conflict I am just trying to find out if this negative press is justified and how safe I actually am taking steroids


I think you're always doing a certain amount of damage when fcuking with your hormones mate, be it temporary or permanent. The extent of this is hard to pinpoint though as there are so many other factors at play, as has been pointed out. The only way it could lead to death though IMO would be if your body weight gets up to 300lb+ and you're putting serious strain on your heart, but steroids would only be the cause here in so much as food is the cause of obese people dying of heart attacks.


----------



## d4ead (Nov 3, 2008)

come on guys sunshine kills you, how many people still go out in the sun???

Too much of any substance on earth has a detrimental effect.

You want to talk about stupid talk to the guys that go out every weekend and drink themselves to oblivion. Or people that even now still smoke.

in ttt defence i think its safe to assume anyone dumb enough to take what he said seriously would have been to dumb to read it in the first place. In my opinion much like the these pills can make you drowsy' on sleeping pill box's, i brought up earlier.

I would also like to point out there talking about bringing in test injections as a male answer to the pill.

Oh wait i guess then it would be safe as it would be prescribed.

You just have to look at the subject objectively.

All that needed to be said to answer the original post has been said.

1. its tolerated here because it tolerated in the sport and in competition.

2. if you want to keep it natural you can and just stick to natural competitions.

3. generally people that use gear do very much care about there health.

Not even the best scientists in the world seem to be able to agree on what foods are safe and what cause us to die, what chance have we got.

a Dr put it great on the news the other day.

'we have discovered that a glass of red wine a day can increase your chance of cancer significantly, but the same glass will decrease your chance of heart problems significantly. So go choose do you want to die of heart disease or cancer.'


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## heavyweight (Jan 26, 2009)

Tinytom said:


> *There are plenty of boards where steroid use is* *not talked about.*
> 
> There are drugs in every sport and thats what you have to accept. There are guys who will rinse the gear and not pay attention to their diet and training but thats just the way things are. As for rewards, personally the rewards for me are
> 
> ...


Thats what makes thye board heavy !


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## Ser (Aug 10, 2008)

essexboy said:


> i think that statements rather naive.i personally knew three bb who have died from conditions, not usually atributable to young men with no previous health issues.Its direct causation, where the grey area exists.
> 
> *If i wander drunk across the road, and get hit by a bus,whats to blame, The booze or the bus?*
> 
> Just for the record im not anti-aas.


Err, YOU...for not looking before you crossed the road:confused1:

i love how it always someone else's fault.....YOU get drunk, YOU don't look where YOU are going...its YOUR fault!

Same can be said about not knowing your own family history, not educating yourself about a substance before putting it into your body.....jeez!

Its been said before, the list of 'side effects' from asprin or ibubrufen is SHOCKING...but they are sold over the counter....


----------



## 1237matt (Apr 15, 2009)

I think that BBs who take steroids should do it as 'the last step'. When they reach their optimum level on the best diet and training for them that they have found then steriods is the only option to make further gains. BUT I can imagine that takes years and years and much knowledge and experience. I can't stand it when idiots go on steriods after a few months of training. I was in the gym the other day and heard these two oafs talking about how they have just started their first cycle. They said that they where doing chest and I pointed out that they where doing dumbell shoulder military press. They where not happy. I couldn't help but say that they should invest time at the gym, effort and a well researched diet before embarking on steriods.

But on the whole I am against steriods. I think that most people can get 'huge' on the right diet and training. Steriods is admitadly a quicker way to that point but with possibly harmful side affects. In my opinion steriods is the ultimate payment for the ultimate sin of vanity.

However there is a big difference between steriod use and steriod abuse.


----------



## Ser (Aug 10, 2008)

PS, those in 'power' are seriously considering using testosterone as a male contraceptive, its SAFER than the female pill and more effective...and that will be widely accepted......makes you think huh?

If steroids were legalized today the stigma that people who are not educated in that area associate with usage( i bet) would be dropped in record time......


----------



## d4ead (Nov 3, 2008)

Mrs Weeman said:


> PS, those in 'power' are seriously considering using testosterone as a male contraceptive, its SAFER than the female pill and more effective...and that will be widely accepted......makes you think huh?
> 
> If steroids were legalized today the stigma that people who are not educated in that area associate with usage( i bet) would be dropped in record time......


yup, ive been following this closely in testing its been reported as being as effective as the pill at 99.9%

sweet id sign up today 

wait is it still evil and wrong and bad for me if my dr says its ok?


----------



## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

AlasTTTair said:


> ^ Pretty sure if someone like JW were to make a joke like that there wouldn't be a problem.


No i would say the same to them it was a stupid statement and you know so stop moaning.



erics44 said:


> maybe the world is so against the use of steriods because, although if used properly they can be much more of a benefit than harmful, it is easy to make a mistake and seriously damage your health?


not really mate and when you say serouisly damamge your health what do you mean? i in my early days i admittingly abused the dose i used going up to 3g per week yet the most serouise side i got was acne and bitch tits.....before you come back with how do you know i get regular bloods done and found no damage.....



1237matt said:


> I think that BBs who take steroids should do it as 'the last step'.


 this i agree with



1237matt said:


> But on the whole I am against steriods. I think that most people can get 'huge' on the right diet and training.


what is considered Huge? because in my eyes i have not seen any Huge naturals some good ones but non that i would say Huge.....



1237matt said:


> Steriods is admitadly a quicker way to that point but with possibly harmful side affects.


again not really if this was the case then everyone who used them would be Huge and this is definatly not the case, the myth of just take steroids and you will be huge is just that a myth everyone natty or not need to know the basics and apply them to grow muscles of any size....steroids will take you past your natural potential....



1237matt said:


> In my opinion steriods is the ultimate payment for the ultimate sin of vanity.


 and what is the ultimate payment....and please don't say death


----------



## 1237matt (Apr 15, 2009)

no not death hopefully but put it this way- they are not 'good' for you are they. If your natrual testorone levels decrease or even stops and you become dependant on roids for testorone boosts e.t.c. then that just scares me to be quite honest. I did say 'possible' harmful side affects. Of course many people feel little or no side affects BUT the only way to find out is to do them yourself and at that exact point you have made a gamble that might become a negative one long term.

I am not disrespecting people who use steriods because I know that using them alone does not give the desired affect. And i dont wish to offend anyoine taking them. I know You still have be absolutley dedicated in every realm of body building. I just find this topic very interesting and I like reading posts like this because you find genuine opinions on a taboo subject from people who actually have the experience rather than someone who thinks they know about them.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

BigDom86 said:


> is taking steroids a health risk? no
> 
> is abusing steroids a health risk? yes
> 
> ...


For some taking steroids would in fact pose a health risk, like myself for instance, just 400mg of testosterone a week gives me Stage II stroke range BP issues (after 8 or so weeks), once it was so high I was urinating blood from the kidneys.

For the record it is a tad high anyway, but on cycle depending on the gear it can get up to 178/116 and I have seen it in the 180's...

Remember kidney failure from blood pressure is number 2 behind diabetese.

From the standpoint of HDL to LDL ratio, I have blood that would suggest it does not favor lipid profile.

Let me explain, low levels of testosterone in a man lower HDL, and raise LDL's.

Same as high doses of testosterone lower HDL's and increase LDL's.

The risk of stroke is heavy for high blood pressure, and mine got so high even the doctors were freaking out when I was using tren, mast, and test.

So, those with high blood pressures, kidney problems, etc, should be very carefull taking steroids thinking they may be safe.

Liver damage is well known, and that is a very important organ.


----------



## Was_Eric (Jul 3, 2008)

Pscarb said:


> not really mate and when you say serouisly damamge your health what do you mean? i in my early days i admittingly abused the dose i used going up to 3g per week yet the most serouise side i got was acne and bitch tits.....before you come back with how do you know i get regular bloods done and found no damage.....


i dunno what i mean by seriously really

why is the world against steroids?


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## Ser (Aug 10, 2008)

d4ead said:


> yup, ive been following this closely in testing its been reported as being as effective as the pill at 99.9%
> 
> sweet id sign up today
> 
> wait is it still evil and wrong and bad for me if my dr says its ok?


MORE effective...and less dangerous than a female using the pill as a contraceptive


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## Ser (Aug 10, 2008)

erics44 said:


> i dunno what i mean by seriously really
> 
> why is the world against steroids?


simple answer? ignorance! people are uneducated.....lack of knowledge can be a dangerous thing sometimes.....


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## miles2345 (Mar 26, 2008)

since my last blood test last year i have put on a stone and recently finished a 16 weeks course and with my diet and lifestyle they are lower than last year, and they were in the normal range then


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## dan the man (Apr 1, 2009)

what does it matter to you if some1 else takes gear every body wants different things stop moaning and get on with your cardio


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

1237matt said:


> no not death hopefully but put it this way- they are not 'good' for you are they. .


well they are used in nearly all feilds of medicine so to say steroids are not good for you is a bit of a stretch......the abuse of steroids is not good for you the use of them can be fine.....



1237matt said:


> If your natrual testorone levels decrease or even stops and you become dependant on roids for testorone boosts e.t.c. then that just scares me to be quite honest. .


this statement shows me that you know very little about steroids, your HPTA does suppress or even shutdown but it does recover it takes a well planned PCT and time....your natural levels decrease with age naturally does this scare you as you cannot recover from this drop......

you do not use steroids and that is fine but your lack of understanding about them just fuels the media crap that is said about them every day....


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## BigDom86 (Jul 27, 2008)

hackskii said:


> For some taking steroids would in fact pose a health risk, like myself for instance, just 400mg of testosterone a week gives me Stage II stroke range BP issues (after 8 or so weeks), once it was so high I was urinating blood from the kidneys.
> 
> For the record it is a tad high anyway, but on cycle depending on the gear it can get up to 178/116 and I have seen it in the 180's...
> 
> ...


good post. not being rude here but do you have a quite high bodyfat? as you say your levels are high normally. my levels are anywhere between 120-140/60-75ish normally is that high?


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## 1237matt (Apr 15, 2009)

Pscarb,

My original quote 'If your natrual testorone levels decrease or even stops and you become dependant on roids for testorone boosts e.t.c.'

My statement was not wrong though was it? I accept your point that this can be corrected through careful planning BUT don't you think that the 'media crap' is a result of people not being able to 'carefully plan' their way back. People like yoursefl have this knowledge but what Im saying is that people go on these cycles without fully understanding what they are getting into. If anything you are doing the right thing by creating such a good info and advice source for potential roid users.

On a competeting level.....

Firstly I dont care wether people take sterioids or not. Its their choice and as long as it doesnt affect anyone else thats fine- same as smoking. But take boxing for example..... Once two fighters have agreed to a fight they meet at an agreed weightclass.(and are drug tested) This is so they can compete on a fair level so one does not have a weight advantage e.t.c. So this means they are competeting on a level playing field and that the winner should theoretically be the most talented or the person thats trained the hardest.

But in bodybuilding this natrual level playing field has been completley thrown out the window. Isnt it a case of who takes the best steriods and understands the cycles the best e.t.c? Obviosuly genetics, diet and training are still essential elements but is that not enough for steroid users?

People who enjoy bodybuilding and all the focus and determination that goes along with it may reach a point where they want to compete. Admitadly there are natrual comps but to be 'the best' and to win the major comps do they have no choice but to turn to steroids?

Please dont be offended by this- it is my last intention. I appreciate how dedicated BBs have to be even with roids. And on a personal level think it is commendable how you deter most people away from roids until they are ready. Im just interested in your opinions


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

BigDom86 said:


> good post. not being rude here but do you have a quite high bodyfat? as you say your levels are high normally. my levels are anywhere between 120-140/60-75ish normally is that high?


Your levels are fine mate, that is not a problem.

Yah, I am probably around 21% or so, and extra weight gain does increase this.

But lets remember, I dont go into stroke range outside of cycles.

I was in stroke range even taking BP meds on gear.

The only thing diffrently I did was go on gear.

The lipid profile was looking very bad after a course of winstrol, then later on I was reading from a doctors book he wrote that winstrol is notorious for jacking the lipid profiles up.

Many factors here need to be considered, it increases hair loss (scalp), it can compromise lipid profiles, it can cause shut down for up to a year and this in itself can compromise good health as many issues are regulated with hormones including, blood sugar, mood, libido, depression, anxiety, bad skin, insecurity, and many others.

To say that nobody has died is really stretching it.

It would be more accurate to say that nobody has died from steroids that can be confirmed with an autopsy.

I have taken gear off and on for over 20 years, I have seen many things, and to think they are safe is actually not something that I would say.

The longer I go on, the more this manafests itself.

I have known a guy that have had a stroke on cycle (ah but it could not be proved so who knows, dude was only in his 30's), saw a guy with a 5 HDL, now the doctor told him that he had high blood pressure, panic attacks, anxiety, the worst cholesterol profile of anyone he has ever seen, and the guy was only 38 years old and was put on all kinds of meds.

This guy was on and off for over 10 years, and mostly on.

He looked better than most members on this board, but his insides the doctor said he had the cardiovascular health of a very old man.

He got off, everything came back to normal over time.

Not to mention that during a large deca only cycle I did, many of my friends and family noticed a turn in my disposition, I got angry pretty fast, and had no worries about letting anyone know.

Looking back, I know it was the deca.

Safe?

I will let you decide.


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## essexboy (Sep 7, 2008)

Pscarb said:


> Steroids do have risks but to die from them is a stretch to make any assumption about the 3 men your speaking of you need to look at every aspect of their life and their steroid use...
> 
> did they use to much to soon?
> 
> ...


Paul.this was a long , long time ago.I cant vouch for the individuals liestyles.None of them were fat.Regarding usage, i cant be specific.None of the deaths were directly atributable to steroids obviously.The point was that they died from conditions ,USUALLY attributed to men of far more years, and/or alcohol abuse.once again im NOT anti-aas.In what is fast becoming a police state, I passionately defend the individuals right to make informed choices.,as long as it doesnt negatively affect others.

I do consider aas use for other than medical conditions abuse,because it is! however, if the potential benefits (personally) are felt to be worthwhile, physically or pyschologically then I respect your (and anyones)choice.If i had began lifting weights at an earlier age, without my medical iisues, im sure that i would have made a similar choice.


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## Inggasson (Jul 13, 2008)

I don't get why some people get so high and mighty about the steroids issue. I'm a natural trainer and probably always will be, but I don't see a point in deriding people who choose to use chemical assistance. Chumps like Chris Benoit and Greg Valentino give BBing a bad name. Anyway, whether a guy is natural or not, I can still appreciated a finely sculpted body as a work of art. Live and let live, I say.


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## Prodiver (Nov 14, 2008)

Humans - almost uniquely - do all manner of things that are totally unnatural and carry certain levels of risk, but confer desirable rewards: farming, fishing, flying, travelling by car, sports diving, rugby, hill walking, gardening...

When they introduced running spikes at the 1924 Olympics they were regarded as scandalously unfair. Spikes have allowed faster times, but at what cost to athletes' joints?

The ancient Greeks used to feed their elite athletes special secret diets of honey, nuts and herbs to gain every advantage over their rivals.

So what's the problem of employing unnatural AAS to achieve the results we desire?


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## adonis (Mar 26, 2009)

I agree with Prodiver. We all take risks in some way. Believe me, my health was alot worse when i was getting my head smashed playing rugby each week followed by the silly drinking culture...now im purely bodybuilding, not drinking and taking AAS to help me in my competition my blood pressure and resting heart rate is much lower than my previous lifestyle


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

1237matt said:


> Pscarb,
> 
> My original quote 'If your natrual testorone levels decrease or even stops and you become dependant on roids for testorone boosts e.t.c.'
> 
> My statement was not wrong though was it?


well yes you are wrong because they do not become dependant on steroids for test boosts as you call it, yes you will be suppressed for a time but even without PCT you will recover but it will take more time you do not become dependant on steroids......



1237matt said:


> On a competeting level.....
> 
> But in bodybuilding this natrual level playing field has been completley thrown out the window. Isnt it a case of who takes the best steriods and understands the cycles the best e.t.c? Obviosuly genetics, diet and training are still essential elements but is that not enough for steroid users?
> 
> People who enjoy bodybuilding and all the focus and determination that goes along with it may reach a point where they want to compete. Admitadly there are natrual comps but to be 'the best' and to win the major comps do they have no choice but to turn to steroids?


if you are natty and want to compete in a non natty competition yes you are at a disadvantage but that is when genetics come into play Fivos and Lee Williams both with outstanding natty physiques have both won non tested shows and beaten much bigger guys.....Ronnie Coleman earned his pro card at the IFBB Worlds which is drug tested....

the only non level playing field is the one in the natty shows when you have a true natural then have others who do use AAS/GH/SLin etc and claim to be natural.......



1237matt said:


> Please dont be offended by this- it is my last intention. I appreciate how dedicated BBs have to be even with roids. And on a personal level think it is commendable how you deter most people away from roids until they are ready. Im just interested in your opinions


i am not offended mate your misunderstanding of the use and application of steroids for most is comical you are bunching us all up into the group of the weekend warriors who just take what ever it takes to get big arms to go clubbing.....

the thing that makes me laugh about all this is that i get medical checkups several times a year including heart and bones scans my BP is 125/85 and does not go much higher yet there are natty bodybuilders who are at more risk than me because they do not monitor their body they have higher BP because of their diet....yet as a steroid user i am the unhealthy one  ...think about that the next time you sink a pizza and then realise Obesity is becoming the biggest killer in this country....worth a thought.... :thumb:


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## Dandy-uk (Apr 12, 2009)

this thread is bulls***t full stop for some one to come on a bodybuilding forum and start such debates is out of order ffs its a bodybuilding forum bodybuilding and steroids tend to come hand in hand no 100% but its not unknown that most bodybuilders are using. i say mind ya own fkin buissness . i personally wouldnt use but i aint looking to compete etc . but if some one does leave them to it and lets just hope they dont abuse them ... abuse of anything will kill ya jeez od on any sort of drug . smoking will **** ya liver lungs heart whatever . and just becoz some lil weed is jealous of the way some one looks while using gear and there not getting no where becoz there against steroids and cant train properly have to lash out tut tut


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## firestorm (Feb 11, 2009)

Stanco said:


> That's not what *in think* body building is about. Body building to me is about getting a healthy body, healthy mind. I can't see anything rewarding about taking these drugs.
> 
> To me it gives me the message that "I don't care about my health, i'll do anything to get big".


Key words in your post "i think".

I view steroid use like any other vice, used moderately and/or correctly then the risks are reduced and you get what you want out of it. Start to abuse it and you'll just muck up your body. I have a few friends who do all sorts of drugs, some pop a pill every now and then, snort a line of coke every now and then and then I have friends who hammer it every weekend. One of my mates who hammers the pills had a heart attack at 23. Another mate who hammers the drink has been classed as an alcoholic and now has to have regular checkups because he b0rked his liver, at 26.

I think "bodybuilding" isn't necessarily a pursuit for a fit and healthy body, for me that is "fitness training". Bodybuilding for me is about altering the physical appearance of your body for a myriad of reasons, most are usually personal and psychological. And, steroids are a tool which help.

I'm an "open" gear user, and by that I mean if people ask I tell them the truth, even close friends or family members. It's quite funny how often I get lectured by people (usually friends, or friends of friends), about the damage I'm causing and the long term effects of the "****" I'm pumping into my ass. Then they go snort a line of coke in the toilets. Joy.


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## hungryshark (May 21, 2009)

Everybody is entitled to thier opinion... I'd like to add a couple of points from the perspective of someone who has studied pharmacology and toxicology at degree level (thats the effects of drugs on the body). From a toxicology point of view any substance can be toxic to the human body at high enough levels that includes things like water and oxygen, so yes if people use steroids at the wrong doses or not knowing what they are doing they can cause harm to the body.

However the fact that doctors give steroids to children and people with growth problems, people with low immune systems such as AIDS sufferers, even people who have been starved such as hostages and prisoners of war who have incredibly fcuked up bodies from the abuse and torture they have recieved to help them to recover. The fact that this can be done over long periods with minimal side effects or problems shows that if taken sensibly and within dosage guidelines then steriods are no more dangerous to your health than any other drug out there.

I don't personally use but i have no problem with people who do so long as they make the effort to get all the advice they can to make sure they don't hurt themselves.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

hungryshark said:


> Everybody is entitled to thier opinion... I'd like to add a couple of points from the perspective of someone who has studied pharmacology and toxicology at degree level (thats the effects of drugs on the body). From a toxicology point of view any substance can be toxic to the human body at high enough levels that includes things like water and oxygen, so yes if people use steroids at the wrong doses or not knowing what they are doing they can cause harm to the body.
> 
> However the fact that doctors give steroids to children and people with growth problems, people with low immune systems such as AIDS sufferers, even people who have been starved such as hostages and prisoners of war who have incredibly fcuked up bodies from the abuse and torture they have recieved to help them to recover. The fact that this can be done over long periods with minimal side effects or problems shows that if taken sensibly and within dosage guidelines then steriods are no more dangerous to your health than any other drug out there.
> 
> I don't personally use but i have no problem with people who do so long as they make the effort to get all the advice they can to make sure they don't hurt themselves.


Nice post


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

hungryshark said:


> Everybody is entitled to thier opinion... I'd like to add a couple of points from the perspective of someone who has studied pharmacology and toxicology at degree level (thats the effects of drugs on the body). From a toxicology point of view any substance can be toxic to the human body at high enough levels that includes things like water and oxygen, so yes if people use steroids at the wrong doses or not knowing what they are doing they can cause harm to the body.
> 
> .


whilst doing cardio tonight i read an old copy of MD(earlier this year) and it mentioned about the amount of people who die in the states from viadin(sp) per year the number for last year was just over 2000 the figure was nearly the same for oxycodin(sp) weird how these kill yet available OTC they would not be produced by big pharmaceutical firms now would they


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## iMORE_TEST (May 23, 2009)

ha why so concerned


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## Raptor (Feb 16, 2010)

They are acceptable in the bodybuilding community as they help you towards your goals...

Simples.


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## Peter V (May 27, 2009)

I think part of the problem is the amount of use and what you would have left if you took it away.

For example if by magic drugs were taken out of cycling, you'd still have a very similar sport, but take drugs away from bodybuilding, and the so called 'sport' would literally have a completely different image, and would change it totally. This importance of drugs in bodybuilding has led to the drug use filtering down from the top pro's, right down to very amateur gym goers, unlike other sports where the 'bad stuff' stays right at the extreme top.


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## kgb (Sep 13, 2009)

Peter V said:


> I think part of the problem is the amount of use and what you would have left if you took it away.
> 
> For example if by magic drugs were taken out of cycling, you'd still have a very similar sport, but take drugs away from bodybuilding, and the so called 'sport' would literally have a completely different image, and would change it totally. This importance of drugs in bodybuilding has led to the drug use filtering down from the top pro's, right down to very amateur gym goers, unlike other sports where the 'bad stuff' stays right at the extreme top.


People tend to say without AAS the top guys would still be the top guys.

Taking the drugs out of sports would have a much bigger effect on bodybuilding than it would on football or cycling.

Equally nothing about modern living can be considered anywhere near 'natural'.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

All sorts of drugs are in sports from BETA blockers in shooting, to clenbugerol in swimming.

Drugs in bodybuilding is no diffrent.


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## yoohoo1 (Jan 8, 2010)

My take on the OP's question is that most people are ignorant. The people on here are not and our eyes are wide open. Why else would i have to hide my steroid use from smokers, coke users, alcohol abusers, obese non exercisers, etc. All these things are proven to be far worse for you than moderate AAS use while eating healthy and exercising. Steroids just seem to have a massive stigma attached to them worse than class A's (except smack). Crazy when you think about it.


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## freddee (Mar 2, 2009)

I thought body building was making boats!!, I imagine if michael Jacksons doctor prescribed them, everything would be ok....


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## BLUTOS (Mar 5, 2005)

I think cos this is an open forum, you dont have to read the "steroid" posts if you dont want to, I have peeked at them cos the amout of chemicals that re available these days you would need a bloody doctorate to get your head round em.

From mates who have n still used I am just amazed that they still eat better, aremore diligent in their training etc than a "natty".


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## Lois_Lane (Jul 21, 2009)

Some of the most popular members on here are massive drug junkies.....if the most popular members were natural it would be slightly different.


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## Milky (Nov 30, 2008)

It is a strange concept that steroid use is as bad (if not worse) than recreational drug use.

Perhaps the problem is the genuine guys who use are too honest about it hence making it look more widespread.

The press do it a terrible miss-justice too, recent events have once again proved this.

For far to long we have been reading steroids = cheat.

I bet not one of the cretins who preach this have ever taken time to study the subject properly.


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## lordgeorge (Jun 30, 2010)

My opinion as a young beginner is that bodybuilding is about seeing how far

you can push the human body, finding out what happens if we experiment.

I think that without the use of steroids this has already been done,

sport is about advancing and breaking records and I think that to break

any standing records steroids have to be used, look at how some of the records for the big 3 lifts have increased over the years. and tell me you can top them completely natural.

In my opinion taking steroids are in no way different to supplementing with creatine or protein. as Testosterone is as natural as either of these substances, it's effects are just more prominent.

however there are those that use them without putting in the research, and this is what gets them the bad press.

it's the same with other drugs and 'herbal substances that are frowned upon and made illegal because of the activities of uneducated tw*ts.

In a world constant looking for someone or something to blame drugs are perfect for this role, and while some are responsible for a lot of suffering responsible steroid use should not fall into this category.


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## IanStu (Apr 12, 2009)

well I love em...there is absolutely no way at my age that I could hope to gain much muscle naturally....I cant imagine ever coming off them.... 

I cant see how it could be considered cheating, who are you cheating?


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## Lois_Lane (Jul 21, 2009)

IanStu said:


> well I love em...there is absolutely no way at my age that I could hope to gain much muscle naturally....I cant imagine ever coming off them....
> 
> I cant see how it could be considered cheating, who are you cheating?


 You cheat your self! Its all about building a temple of health not a whore house of death!


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## Irish Beast (Jun 16, 2009)

Wouldn't say body building was about getting a healthy body. It's about having a huge one! I however have neither!


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## pea head (May 28, 2008)

Irish Beast said:


> Wouldn't say body building was about getting a healthy body.* It's about having a huge one! I however have neither!*


You are right there mate...you certainly dont have a huge one. :lol:


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## Lois_Lane (Jul 21, 2009)

Irish Beast said:


> Wouldn't say body building was about getting a healthy body. It's about having a huge one! I however have neither!


 Well there are varying degrees of it obviously. Just naturally building your body up and that means no extreme weight gain while staying lean. That will be healthy. Loading your self on any drug that remotely may or may not have some thing to do with muscle growth and go over 20 stone well that may not be quite as healthy:lol:

Personally i am all about the health:whistling:


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## IanStu (Apr 12, 2009)

Lois_Lane said:


> You cheat your self! Its all about building a temple of health not a whore house of death!


but I like whore houses....especialy if you can get a nice cup of tea afterwards


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## Andy Dee (Jun 1, 2008)

Lois_Lane said:


> Well there are varying degrees of it obviously. Just naturally building your body up and that means no extreme weight gain while staying lean. That will be healthy. Loading your self on any drug that remotely may or may not have some thing to do with muscle growth and go over 20 stone well that may not be quite as healthy:lol:
> 
> *Personally i am all about the health* :whistling:


every now and then


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## Smitch (Dec 29, 2008)

Stick with dat dere Celltech.


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## pea head (May 28, 2008)

Smitch said:


> Stick with dat dere Celltech.


No mate...that crap is dated....Frog Tech is better.


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## Andy Dee (Jun 1, 2008)

Smitch said:


> Stick with dat dere Celltech.


Lol! :laugh: yeh blud and stay away from doze protein shakes.. You'll get huge man init.


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## skinnyfat (Mar 30, 2010)

I dont smoke(anymore)

I dont do AAS

I dont eat artificial sweeteners

I dont eat much sugar or unrefined as I was brought up that way luckily

BUT I do get drunk every other weekend probably

Theres so many things bad for you, you can read some places that not getting enough sleep is probably the most unhealthiest thing


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## Bulk1 (Apr 12, 2007)

Bit off topic, wondering how well educated they were back in Arnies day to the importance of PCT. Back then there was no internet to look up the dangers of using gear. No books on the subject they could order on ebay with the user name 'The Terminator' (to keep there indentity confidential). Did they bother with PCT?

If they could survive the massivley high dosages of the crap they were taking back then.. it would be very much safer these days with all the knowledge on them.

I can understand someone's concern if they are seeing newbie guys being advised to take steriods. Which hopefully doesnt happen.


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## suliktribal (Apr 4, 2010)

Because steroids are awesome.


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## R11HNO (Dec 27, 2010)

Body building should be about healthy life style and living longer and fitter..there are so many dangers when it comes to using steroids, if anyone new to the sport is thinking about going down that road....please read : http://hubpages.com/hub/Steroids-vs-Natuaral-body-building


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

Stanco said:


> That's not what in think body building is about. Body building to me is about getting a healthy body, healthy mind. I can't see anything rewarding about taking these drugs.
> 
> To me it gives me the message that "I don't care about my health, i'll do anything to get big".


its this simple:

1x pint of lager= 18.4g of alcohol, or 18,400mg of alcohol for your liver to process..

most recreational BB's take 500-1000mg of sterods per WEEK, and people say the CRAZY ones do 3000mg PER WEEK..

i don't know anyone who only has 1 pint of beer a week... and there is a real problem in this country with health related problems from alcohol abuse.. lets not get started on smoking...

for my money, taking steroids is far LESS dangerous to your health than something most "regular people" do: drink..

so tell me, how many people die from Steroid use each year according to the NHS, and how many people die from cirrhosis of the liver from alcohol abuse...

do some research, and get real my friend..


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

Bulk1 said:


> Bit off topic, wondering how well educated they were back in Arnies day to the importance of PCT. Back then there was no internet to look up the dangers of using gear. No books on the subject they could order on ebay with the user name 'The Terminator' (to keep there indentity confidential). Did they bother with PCT?
> 
> If they could survive the massivley high dosages of the crap they were taking back then.. it would be very much safer these days with all the knowledge on them.
> 
> I can understand someone's concern if they are seeing newbie guys being advised to take steriods. Which hopefully doesnt happen.


the most MASSIVE dosages BBs take of steroids, don't even count compared to 2 pints of beer in a week- see my other post..


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## keano (Feb 9, 2006)

R11HNO said:


> Body building should be about healthy life style and living longer and fitter..there are so many dangers when it comes to using steroids, if anyone new to the sport is thinking about going down that road....please read : http://hubpages.com/hub/Steroids-vs-Natuaral-body-building


Who is this d1ck ???

I have seen the same guy post over many BB forums to the exact same link, always in his first couple of posts.


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