# The best way to use fast insulin for musclegrowth?



## Marylandmuscle (Jun 4, 2011)

Do anybody have some good strategies? Lets say you use GH, igf-1lr3, igf-1 des and steroids. Which way is best to use insulin for maximum growth? Ive already know what it can cause and I dont want to hear so much about it just how to use it the best way for maximum benefits.


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## Jaanos (Sep 8, 2012)

Depends really on how much "mass" (fat) your willing to risk packing on.

I personally think unless your a 300lb bodybuilder there is no reason to use slin more than PWO only, as this is the prime time to use it for MAXIMUM potential of shuttling glycogen and nutrients into the muscle cells.

Immideatly PWO go With 100g Maltodextrin, 75g HydrolizedWPI and 10g Glutamine,do bi-lateral injections IntraM of the slin to the bodypart worked, i use novo-rapid (very fast acting), but humalog will also suffice. if using longer acting slin (which i dont reccomend) you will need to reasearch the onset time of that particular insulin and shoot the slin slightly before the PWO shake.

as for the ammount of slin to use START LOW and asses your tolerance, im very insulin resistant and need to shoot about 20iu for my 100g Malto, but for gods sake dont do this untill you know how you react to it.

I hope this helps bro


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## jstarcarr (Aug 6, 2010)

pre workout and zero carbs and bcaa intra workout


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## Jaanos (Sep 8, 2012)

jstarcarr said:


> pre workout and zero carbs and bcaa intra workout


This without a doubt will send him hypo, not funny at all, comments like this stuff will get you banned. Especially when talking about insulin in which one slip up can kill you.


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## dt36 (Jun 3, 2005)

Jaanos, why is Jstarcarr wrong?

I have taken insulin using various protocols, including pre-workout with zero carbs. If you know how your body reacts to insulin and are not new to it, there is nothing wrong with this method. For some people (beginners) this would not be a recommended method I agree, however the OP asked about different strategies. Jstarcarr gave him his strategie...

Your strategie is also correct, and is another method of how to take it. the difference being is that the method you have described feeds the muscle post workout. The method jstarcarr has posted feeds the muscle immediately during the workout as it is becoming depleted. This method is also used for fasted training to help reduce any fat build up when using insulin.

We can argue the toss over safety etc, but an experienced trainer, not new to insulin will make good fat free gains with this method.


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## Marylandmuscle (Jun 4, 2011)

What ive saw somewhere it would be okay to go with in the morning 6-8 ius then 5-6 hours later probably preworkout if you want 6-8 ius or go with it POSTworkout with same amount of ius. Because if you go igf-1 its no point to go inuslin prework so igf-1 prework and insu postwork.


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## Suprakill4 (Jul 11, 2008)

5 x a day with all my solid meals at 5iu,


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## Marylandmuscle (Jun 4, 2011)

What about this that insulin makes you fat? Lets say you take IGF-1 DES, IGF-1 Lr3 and GH but no steroids right now because iam off from it for 2 months but i do the others during pct and after.. Will insulin be good anyway to use without steroids or should you wait until you throw in the roids to get more poundage? I eat very clean allways, sometimes bad but not often and train like an animal =)


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## biglbs (Jan 26, 2012)

I have heard of pre workout for blood clearance when using peps and gh intra workout,however only very fast acting and small doses,as you would be risking problems at higher doses.If you are feeding in fast carbs during workout i see no problems at all if not using Gh/peps(as it would blunt peps pulse)


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## biglbs (Jan 26, 2012)

Marylandmuscle said:


> What about this that insulin makes you fat? Lets say you take IGF-1 DES, IGF-1 Lr3 and GH but no steroids right now because iam off from it for 2 months but i do the others during pct and after.. Will insulin be good anyway to use without steroids or should you wait until you throw in the roids to get more poundage? I eat very clean allways, sometimes bad but not often and train like an animal =)


Most anaboliic tool we have ,control carbs avoiding sugars,no problem,guys get too carried away with eating and eat crap,this is where problems with fat occur off(or on though less so)AAS.


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## Superhorse (May 29, 2011)

What's the potency of fat transport to adipose tissue? I.e. do those of you who eat rice or oats or whatever it is with your meals plus run slin per meal worry about the small amount of fat in clean carbs?


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

Jaanos said:


> This without a doubt will send him hypo, not funny at all, comments like this stuff will get you banned. Especially when talking about insulin in which one slip up can kill you.


no it wont get him banned it is his opinion and to a degree i share it, by far the best way i have used Insulin is pre workout, second best would be PWO with GH in the same pin.....


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## micreed (Sep 9, 2008)

pre workout with drink off whey protien and bcaa and dextrose shoot slin then drink half mix then top drink with water sip thru workout...after workout hgh


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## Superhorse (May 29, 2011)

What's the difference between HGH before slin preworkout and HGH post workout (after slin preworkout)?

I note MikeArnold and Mutant preworkout protocols call for it prior to the slin within time limits to let it pass the liver.


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## micreed (Sep 9, 2008)

tbh i dont think that the time frame is significant enough to matter a hell of a lot wether u shoot hgh with or after slin and workout just my personal pref to use after ....i would say however i dont spend more than 30 mins max when working out so perhaps if into long workouts pre may be better but in real would i still think its not gonna make that much diff ....the actual shake however does hence the ingrediants their was a study while back as to what kind protien /simple carb is best but cant remember who did it and where it was posted ...i belive this is milos sarcev,s proticol and this is guy who intoduced slin into bodybuilding in 90s as ur taking and shuttleing nutriants during and slightly after workout by time ur ready for real meal slin would have cleared system and no need to worry about what u eat within reason


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## Superhorse (May 29, 2011)

Yeah I read Milos stuff and MikeArnold claims he based it on that and developed his using Karbolyn and Hydrolysed Whey...alongside a variety of things like creatine, glutamine, leucine, glycerol, gplc, taurine, beta alanine etc


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## stone14 (Mar 24, 2005)

op: heres a similar thread you might like a read of and with my thoughs on it, saves me commenting the same thing twice lol. its jmo tho im no expert....

http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/steroid-testosterone-information/195871-slin-advice-serious.html


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## Outtapped (Dec 10, 2012)

Pscarb said:


> no it wont get him banned it is his opinion and to a degree i share it, by far the best way i have used Insulin is pre workout, second best would be PWO with GH in the same pin.....


Paul, what do you think about running pre with zero carbs and post with carbs? the time difference for me would be between 1 - 1.5 hours.

Also how long before workout is pre workout with insulin?

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Pscarb said:


> no it wont get him banned it is his opinion and to a degree i share it, by far the best way i have used Insulin is pre workout, second best would be PWO with GH in the same pin.....


Paul, what do you think about running pre with zero carbs and post with carbs? the time difference for me would be between 1 - 1.5 hours.

Also how long before workout is pre workout with insulin?


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

WhySoSerious said:


> Paul, what do you think about running pre with zero carbs and post with carbs? the time difference for me would be between 1 - 1.5 hours.
> 
> Also how long before workout is pre workout with insulin?
> 
> ...


i think it is stupid to run any insulin without carbs thats just asking for trouble plus i dont see the point or advantage? (unless trying to get into keto) i take my Slin 40min before training with carbs as well as carbs intra and post

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WhySoSerious said:


> Paul, what do you think about running pre with zero carbs and post with carbs? the time difference for me would be between 1 - 1.5 hours.
> 
> Also how long before workout is pre workout with insulin?
> 
> ...


i think it is stupid to run any insulin without carbs thats just asking for trouble plus i dont see the point or advantage? (unless trying to get into keto) i take my Slin 40min before training with carbs as well as carbs intra and post


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## Outtapped (Dec 10, 2012)

Pscarb said:


> i think it is stupid to run any insulin without carbs thats just asking for trouble plus i dont see the point or advantage? (unless trying to get into keto) i take my Slin 40min before training with carbs as well as carbs intra and post
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> 
> i think it is stupid to run any insulin without carbs thats just asking for trouble plus i dont see the point or advantage? (unless trying to get into keto) i take my Slin 40min before training with carbs as well as carbs intra and post


and would the pre workout carbs be fast, slow or fast and slow?

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Pscarb said:


> i think it is stupid to run any insulin without carbs thats just asking for trouble plus i dont see the point or advantage? (unless trying to get into keto) i take my Slin 40min before training with carbs as well as carbs intra and post
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> 
> i think it is stupid to run any insulin without carbs thats just asking for trouble plus i dont see the point or advantage? (unless trying to get into keto) i take my Slin 40min before training with carbs as well as carbs intra and post


and would the pre workout carbs be fast, slow or fast and slow?


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## XRichHx (Mar 7, 2012)

In a nutshell can anyone tell me how insulin like this increases growth?

From limited knowledge insulin simply shuttles nutrients to cells, then the process of muscle growth starts.


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## Superhorse (May 29, 2011)

WhySoSerious said:


> and would the pre workout carbs be fast, slow or fast and slow?


Usually fast mate. Something like karbolyn or vitargo.

*My preworkout protocol (I train first thing):*

1. 55mins before workout:100mcg ipa/mod-grf 1-29

2. 45mins before workout: 8iu GH and then 100g oats and 50g isolate (first meal of the day to help balance out blood sugar a bit)

3. 30mins before workout: 15iu Novo and at same time shake of 60g karbolyn, 20g hydrolysed protein, leucine, glutatime, creatine etc etc

4. 30mins into workout (train for an hour): 2nd shake of 60g karbolyn, 20g hydrolysed protein, leucine, glutatime, creatine etc

5. On arrival home: 100g oats and 50g isolate

On deadlift day I take another karbolyn (40g) and protein shake (20g) directly after training as deadlift burns up those carbs like crazy and much bigger risk of hypo. Also potentially applicable on legs day, others seem fine.


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## Outtapped (Dec 10, 2012)

Superhorse said:


> Usually fast mate. Something like karbolyn or vitargo.
> 
> *My preworkout protocol (I train first thing):*
> 
> ...


my idea was pre work out shake to contain dextrose and instant oats as carb source, would run mod grf and ghrp at same time as slin

So something like this

40 mins pre work out: 100mcg GHRP/100mcg Mod GRF. 7ius Slin.

Soon after: 50g dextrose/50g instant oats/ 50g protein

Train: intra workout shake (exceed) no sugars in this

post workout: 7ius slin 70g dextrose/50g protein

Within 1 hour of shake: Protein and carb meal, low fats


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Paul, something I am having a problem getting my head around with GH and slin.

Here goes.

When insulin is low, glucagon is high, and GH will be high.

We know GH spikes with resistance training.

When insulin is high, GH is blunted.

What benefits would it be to have high insulin and high GH both at the same time when they generally oppose one another?


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## Superhorse (May 29, 2011)

WhySoSerious said:


> my idea was pre work out shake to contain dextrose and instant oats as carb source, would run mod grf and ghrp at same time as slin
> 
> So something like this
> 
> ...


I think the issue with that is the slin pulses so Novo is active for 3 hours hence you will have some crossover and it will be a bit unpredictable. Admittedly though it's not a huge amount of slin so you might get away with it.

Not sure about this type of thing, it's a good idea though. I'm sure Paul or Aus can say more...


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## Outtapped (Dec 10, 2012)

Superhorse said:


> I think the issue with that is the slin pulses so Novo is active for 3 hours hence you will have some crossover and it will be a bit unpredictable. Admittedly though it's not a huge amount of slin so you might get away with it.
> 
> Not sure about this type of thing, it's a good idea though. I'm sure Paul or Aus can say more...


Yeah because Paul above has recommend pre and post, well that's how I read it anyway. Does the slim continue to pulse for 3 hours though?


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## Suprakill4 (Jul 11, 2008)

Superhorse said:


> I think the issue with that is the slin pulses so Novo is active for 3 hours hence you will have some crossover and it will be a bit unpredictable. Admittedly though it's not a huge amount of slin so you might get away with it.
> 
> Not sure about this type of thing, it's a good idea though. I'm sure Paul or Aus can say more...


I use slin at a low dose pre workout and a high dose postworkout and as long as your carbs are right then its fine. I have yet to ever go hypo on slin, be educated, sensible and you will be fine.

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Superhorse said:


> I think the issue with that is the slin pulses so Novo is active for 3 hours hence you will have some crossover and it will be a bit unpredictable. Admittedly though it's not a huge amount of slin so you might get away with it.
> 
> Not sure about this type of thing, it's a good idea though. I'm sure Paul or Aus can say more...


I use slin at a low dose pre workout and a high dose postworkout and as long as your carbs are right then its fine. I have yet to ever go hypo on slin, be educated, sensible and you will be fine.

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Superhorse said:


> I think the issue with that is the slin pulses so Novo is active for 3 hours hence you will have some crossover and it will be a bit unpredictable. Admittedly though it's not a huge amount of slin so you might get away with it.
> 
> Not sure about this type of thing, it's a good idea though. I'm sure Paul or Aus can say more...


I use slin at a low dose pre workout and a high dose postworkout and as long as your carbs are right then its fine. I have yet to ever go hypo on slin, be educated, sensible and you will be fine.


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## Tinytom (Sep 16, 2005)

hackskii said:


> Paul, something I am having a problem getting my head around with GH and slin.
> 
> Here goes.
> 
> ...


Taking gh and slin together help to increase igf1 output hackskii.

In the body the two cant exist naturally together as carbs affect the insulin output and gh release.

That's the benefit of taking both together. Enhanced recovery from both gh and slin being active at the same time.

I've done the milos protocol and pre and post loading.

Best results I've seen are from PWO slin and gh shot with a creatine and WMS/vitargo drink then 20 mins later a vitargo whey drink 50g of each.

Doing it pre WO tends to make me more bloated and sluggish. Although I do grow I don't like the feeling.

Igf pre WO works better for me than slin.


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## Suprakill4 (Jul 11, 2008)

Tinytom said:


> Taking gh and slin together help to increase igf1 output hackskii.
> 
> In the body the two cant exist naturally together as carbs affect the insulin output and gh release.
> 
> ...


what dose of slin was used pre workout what made you feel sluggish Tom?

did you still feel sluggish if you have intra workout drink and sipped on sugary carbs throughout?

thanks.

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Tinytom said:


> Taking gh and slin together help to increase igf1 output hackskii.
> 
> In the body the two cant exist naturally together as carbs affect the insulin output and gh release.
> 
> ...


what dose of slin was used pre workout what made you feel sluggish Tom?

did you still feel sluggish if you have intra workout drink and sipped on sugary carbs throughout?

thanks.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Tinytom said:


> Taking gh and slin together help to increase igf1 output hackskii.
> 
> In the body the two cant exist naturally together as carbs affect the insulin output and gh release.
> 
> ...


Ah, that makes sense, you need slin for the IGF-1.

I also heard years ago that it reduces the carpel tunnel as well.


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## goonerton (Sep 7, 2009)

hackskii said:


> Paul, something I am having a problem getting my head around with GH and slin.
> 
> Here goes.
> 
> ...


i don't have much knowledge on this but just a thought i had when reading.

maybe high insulin blunts GH release, but possibly has no negative affect on exogenous GH as is not dependent on natural release and is just GH externally dumped into your bloodstream.

may be completely wrong but just a thought.


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## biglbs (Jan 26, 2012)

just GH externally dumped into your bloodstream.

may be completely wrong but just a thought.


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## goonerton (Sep 7, 2009)

biglbs said:


> just GH externally dumped into your bloodstream.
> 
> may be completely wrong but just a thought.


No that is correct mate,that is why when used with peps timing is everything or pulse will be blunted,as i suggested i have known guys use VERY small doses of insulin pre w/o for blood clearing followed by Gh synth too,a risky but apparently productive technique IMO


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## bigstee (Nov 15, 2011)

chilisi said:


> 10ius 3 x a day.


as above. a nice mix of fast and slow carbs. 5g bcaa 10g creatine with each shot.


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## biglbs (Jan 26, 2012)

WhySoSerious said:


> my idea was pre work out shake to contain dextrose and instant oats as carb source, would run mod grf and ghrp at same time as slin
> 
> So something like this
> 
> ...


I feel you would blunt Pulse from peps this way mate,slin and carbs/sugars,not the beast combo that close to peps?However who soon is soon after? :confused1:


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## biglbs (Jan 26, 2012)

goonerton said:


> No that is correct mate,that is why when used with peps timing is everything or pulse will be blunted,as i suggested i have known guys use VERY small doses of insulin pre w/o for blood clearing followed by Gh synth too,a risky but apparently productive technique IMO


well i haven't used much slin or researched that much, just thinking out loud really.


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## Outtapped (Dec 10, 2012)

biglbs said:


> I feel you would blunt Pulse from peps this way mate,slin and carbs/sugars,not the beast combo that close to peps?However who soon is soon after? :confused1:


So when in my proposed plan would you suggest the peps?


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## biglbs (Jan 26, 2012)

WhySoSerious said:


> So when in my proposed plan would you suggest the peps?


Not around carbs mate.Perhaps Am on awakening and Pm before bed,that kind of time,then you could add in 2-4 iu gh after a short time ,either trying 10 min piggy back theory or the one i prefere,20-30 mins after peps,deffo not near carbs though buddy.

No reason why if slinning you could not add slin/Gh synth at same time then carbs/protein too,all either pre or post training,nutrients will carry right on in.You could even add peps 20 mins pre to assist,provided no carbs present.

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WhySoSerious said:


> So when in my proposed plan would you suggest the peps?


Not around carbs mate.Perhaps Am on awakening and Pm before bed,that kind of time,then you could add in 2-4 iu gh after a short time ,either trying 10 min piggy back theory or the one i prefere,20-30 mins after peps,deffo not near carbs though buddy.

No reason why if slinning you could not add slin/Gh synth at same time then carbs/protein too,all either pre or post training,nutrients will carry right on in.You could even add peps 20 mins pre to assist,provided no carbs present.


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## Outtapped (Dec 10, 2012)

biglbs said:


> Not around carbs mate.Perhaps Am on awakening and Pm before bed,that kind of time,then you could add in 2-4 iu gh after a short time ,either trying 10 min piggy back theory or the one i prefere,20-30 mins after peps,deffo not near carbs though buddy.
> 
> No reason why if slinning you could not add slin/Gh synth at same time then carbs/protein too,all either pre or post training,nutrients will carry right on in.You could even add peps 20 mins pre to assist,provided no carbs present.
> 
> ...


Is this not going to work at increasing igf-1 as a few have stated regardless of carbs tho?

I'll be running peps morning and night anyway and will start with gh but only have 100iu and plan on using that at 2-3 ius after each pep shot.


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## biglbs (Jan 26, 2012)

WhySoSerious said:


> Is this not going to work at increasing igf-1 as a few have stated regardless of carbs tho?
> 
> I'll be running peps morning and night anyway and will start with gh but only have 100iu and plan on using that at 2-3 ius after each pep shot.


Using peps with carbs is pointless,if taken too soon,half an hour is the soonest you want to run them,so i have read most places.


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## biglbs (Jan 26, 2012)

It will blunt the pulse


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## Outtapped (Dec 10, 2012)

biglbs said:


> It will blunt the pulse


I understand it blunts the pulse which wont be a problem at am and pm injections but as taking gh /slin together helps increase igf-1 will this also blunt the increase of igf-1 if taken near carbs?


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## biglbs (Jan 26, 2012)

WhySoSerious said:


> I understand it blunts the pulse which wont be a problem at am and pm injections but as taking gh /slin together helps increase igf-1 will this also blunt the increase of igf-1 if taken near carbs?


I have no clear answer on that one mate,i should think Paul or Tom will chime in with that,my thinking is no it will not as it is not reliant on any natural release process other than its own mechanism, so it should not,however i would like to confirm that.

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WhySoSerious said:


> I understand it blunts the pulse which wont be a problem at am and pm injections but as taking gh /slin together helps increase igf-1 will this also blunt the increase of igf-1 if taken near carbs?


I have no clear answer on that one mate,i should think Paul or Tom will chime in with that,my thinking is no it will not as it is not reliant on any natural release process other than its own mechanism, so it should not,however i would like to confirm that


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## goonerton (Sep 7, 2009)

WhySoSerious said:


> I understand it blunts the pulse which wont be a problem at am and pm injections* but as taking gh /slin together helps increase igf-1 *will this also blunt the increase of igf-1 if taken near carbs?


does anyone have any data on the bolded bit, would be a very interesting read for anyone taking these hormones. never heard of this, obviously know that GH raises IGF1 but any data on a combination of GH and insulin raising IGF1 would be much appreciated.


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## Outtapped (Dec 10, 2012)

Pscarb any info?


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## biglbs (Jan 26, 2012)

goonerton said:


> does anyone have any data on the bolded bit, would be a very interesting read for anyone taking these hormones. never heard of this, obviously know that GH raises IGF1 but any data on a combination of GH and insulin raising IGF1 would be much appreciated.


Do you recon if we threaten each other the mods will then see we need advice and step in??? :innocent:


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## Tinytom (Sep 16, 2005)

biglbs said:


> Do you recon if we threaten each other the mods will then see we need advice and step in??? :innocent:


Lol

I did read some obscure article years ago that referred to gh and slin taken together theoretically raising igf higher than normal.

However a study has not been done

However I know my recovery is better taking the two together rather than say just gh or slin. I did a bit of self administration testing


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## biglbs (Jan 26, 2012)

Tinytom said:


> Lol
> 
> I did read some obscure article years ago that referred to gh and slin taken together theoretically raising igf higher than normal.
> 
> ...


As you do and is often better IMO

However i don't think carbs would cause any problems with this,what are your thoughts?

obviously peps would not be an option here.


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## Tinytom (Sep 16, 2005)

biglbs said:


> As you do and is often better IMO
> 
> However i don't think carbs would cause any problems with this,what are your thoughts?
> 
> obviously peps would not be an option here.


My pre and post workout protocol is this.

30 mins pre WO

Lucozade. 2 caps Matador. 100 mcg IGF. Creatine E2. 50 mg Dbol.

10 mins prior. Pre workout pump drink. Normally super pump or hyper fx

I have an intra workout drink of 1 scoop Branch out and 1 scoop cytoguard.

Post WO

5iu slin 3iu simplex

1 scoop CreaMass (20g WMS and creatine)

20 mins later 50g Vitargo and 50g whey


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## biglbs (Jan 26, 2012)

Lovely,makes sense,thanks Tom


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