# Starting out



## skin-and-bone (Nov 11, 2003)

I've never worked out seriously, and my diet sucks, but I'm going to look into the facilities of some local gyms in the next couple of weeks, and see if I can fit in some kind of routine around my work. In the meantime I'm reading up in these forums and a lot of similar ones. I also posted some pics on Anabolic Review a few weeks back, just to remind myself of where I'm starting.

I haven't got proper hosting so I'll just refer you to the thread.

http://www.anabolicreview.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=83908


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## Jock (Apr 8, 2003)

First off mate, welcome to uk-muscle

I can't give you all you need to know in one post, so my advice would be to read as much as you can. There is a lot of info already here so read, read and read some more!

Don't be afraid to ask either mate, the members here are very knowledgeble and will help you 100%

Just bear in mind that long-term commitment to diet and training is what brings results, nothing else.

If you can commit yourself to your goals then the people here will do their very best to help you achieve them!

Best of luck, Jock


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## robdog (Dec 2, 2003)

yeh mate good luck, stick at it and welcome to the board.


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## mdrury2003 (Dec 23, 2003)

Hello mate and welcome to the board.

You have come to the right place mate, you will gain bucket loads of knowledge in no time from here!!

Keep us posted on your progress


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

First off welcome to the board. I checked out your pics and you have an awsome peak on the bicepts.


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## Killerkeane (Nov 9, 2003)

Welcome skin and bone, read the threads and you will see it is possible to gain(i have) cas im exactly like you m8


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## skin-and-bone (Nov 11, 2003)

Thanks for all the comments. I've taken in a huge amount of information over the last couple of months. I can't believe how much forums like this one have taught me about something that I don't even do myself yet! Anyway, a plan is beginning to form in my mind, and I've decided to put it together piece by piece. I'm going to start by finding a suitable gym to join, while in the meantime looking for a job that will allow me more freedom to stick to a proper routine and diet. While I'm looking for a new job, I'll try to get into a basic training routine that includes proper rest, with a not so good (but looking to improve) diet.

My goal for this year is to:

1. Start (and continue) a good training routine. (probably 3 day split)

2. Get a job, or a shift pattern that allows me to fit my gym sessions around my working hours, and allows me time to eat every couple of hours. Once I have this I can plan a proper diet and slip into a good routine.

3. Once I've achieved 1. and 2. I can then be happy that I'm "on the way", and with the help of all the forums I read I can build on my knowledge and look to refine my techniques, as I continue to grow.

Long Term:

I want to have size that turns heads, but be ripped at the same time. I'm hoping I can do that in five years or so. I'm also hoping I won't have to use steroids to do it, although I know that if I do eventually take the plunge, I'll be ready.

I haven't decided how important the condition of my body will be to me in life yet. I'll probably find out over the next few years.

Age: 19

Height: 6' 2"

Weight: 13 stone


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

Well nice plan. You seem very analitical. If long term is your goal then I really recomend not doing gear (steroids) for atleast 3-5 years. The reason is because you will make gains on your own just starting out. The gains will slow down after a while, then you change your routine and continue to make gains.If you do the gear then yes you will make gains but the best way is to go as long as you can and hit a few platous. When you reach the platou that you cant get over then that is the time for the gear. There is diet and different training routines. This board can help you with all of your goals. This board has a bunch of great guy who want to help. Good luck and welcome to the board.


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## Killerkeane (Nov 9, 2003)

your too young to be having steroids, you are still growing remember skin and bone. Many people think people stop growing at about 19-21 but it is actually 25!!!! putting steroid sinto your body will only disrupt the natural growth hormones in later years to come, ive seen it happen.


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## skin-and-bone (Nov 11, 2003)

> Originally posted by Killerkeane
> 
> *your too young to be having steroids, you are still growing remember skin and bone. Many people think people stop growing at about 19-21 but it is actually 25!!!! putting steroid sinto your body will only disrupt the natural growth hormones in later years to come, ive seen it happen. *


I'm not having a go, but please read my thread again. I indicated that I don't want to use steroids, and I want to build myself up long term. I'm reading up on steroids (just out of interest), but I have no intention of using them at my age.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Lots of guys reach their peak around the ages of low to mid 30's

I know my strongest without gear was around 34 or so. This is actually my strongest right at the moment but I just got through with 3 cycles in the last year and am 44.

Remember all prople are diffrent and what works for one might not work for another. Genetics play a part in everything. Get a proper diet set up and a good routine.

It is hard to be big and cut at the same time. I feel I look best with clothes. Without clothes I look better leaner. Just keep reading as jock said and ask questions you will be miles ahead if you follow that rout.


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## miami797 (Feb 19, 2004)

at 6'2" if you keep up with a proper training routine you'll be turning more then just heads.....you'll be turning all the ladies nice n wet...

but seriously...get in the gym...get a job since training isnt cheap, and the food is even more.....and get the right suppliments..

have a decent goal set, but dont aim too high to start because then you'll be taking juice way too early...just keep thinking 5 lbs at a time instead of 20....

dont worry about getting ripped yet, its not like youre a fat kid...

keep coming to the boards and soak in all the info you can...

and dont go to the gym swinging that axe around...


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

> Originally posted by miami797
> 
> *at 6'2" if you keep up with a proper training routine you'll be turning more then just heads.....you'll be turning all the ladies nice n wet...*
> 
> ...


That is so funny. On the other board he got allot of static. I was going to say something but figured he had enough flack about the axe. Maybe it is a good thing I live in the states


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## Panthro (Jan 12, 2004)

LMAO Miami... great quotes there!!



> Originally posted by miami797
> 
> *at 6'2" if you keep up with a proper training routine you'll be turning more then just heads.....you'll be turning all the ladies nice n wet...*
> 
> ...


I didnt want to mention the axe either...but.. nah.

Also top advice from the lads there. Seems like you have got a great attitude buddy. The goals are a grea thing to have, one step at a time. Bodybuilding isnt something that happens over night, as i know you are aware, it takes a lot of time, patience and unfortunately money  but believe me, it is all worth it!

Keep us updated on progress buddy, and feel more than welcome to ask any questions atall, no matter how big or small


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## miami797 (Feb 19, 2004)

you know what they say about red heads with axes...

but for real though, update us with your pictures...i want to see you at around 210-215lb (15stone), with a hockey mask on though....


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## skin-and-bone (Nov 11, 2003)

> Originally posted by miami797
> 
> *you know what they say about red heads with axes... *


Erm...they like to take pics of themselves and then upload them to the internet?


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## miami797 (Feb 19, 2004)

.


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

Hey looking good how many stones are ya:confused:

Does a red axe count. Hey can I call you Jason?


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## Panthro (Jan 12, 2004)

ok guys, stop the **** taking. This is a flame-free board. Skin-and-bone is a good lad, and has come here to learn and join in, not have the **** taken. anymore **** taking posts in this thread will be deleted.

Sorry S-A-B! Lets get back on track, fire away with any questions...


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## skin-and-bone (Nov 11, 2003)

I didn't really see it as ****-taking. The axe pic was supposed to provoke that kind of reaction. It's just a laugh.


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## Panthro (Jan 12, 2004)

lol, good stuff! It has cheered me up today!


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## miami797 (Feb 19, 2004)

no p*ss being taken..its all in a good laugh......im sure if he didnt have a sense of humor he wouldnt have taken a pic with an axe...


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

Yea superjoolz if you dont stop that I will have to delete your posts. Oh wait a minute, im not a moderator. Retract that statement.

I like your sense of humor skin and bone. You look like you have good genetics. You will be a big guy soon. Im 5'8". Your 6'2". Big difference. Your a good sport and nice to see you around. Stick around and ask as many questions as you like. I will have superhuge answer them


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## miami797 (Feb 19, 2004)

skin and bones...be proud bro, youre first post and youre already superstar here.....seriously..

no harm meant at all by that picture....dont mind me, i'm just a silly old yank having a laugh...

keep coming back and welcome, again, to the board


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

> Originally posted by miami797
> 
> *skin and bones...be proud bro, youre first post and youre already superstar here.....seriously..*
> 
> ...


Yea what he said


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## skin-and-bone (Nov 11, 2003)

Don't worry, I will keep coming back. I just joined fitness first in London today. I have yet to find a gym that is biased towards the free weights side of things. I guess everyone is just really fat and wants to lose weight.. Out of all the gyms I've viewed though, this has the best free weights area, even though it only has one squat rack and a couple of benches. It shouldn't be too bad as I'll be using th gym during "off-peak" hours, so there won't be too many people there. Once I get a normal job with normal hours though, I can see it being a problem.


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## miami797 (Feb 19, 2004)

where is fitness first? ive been giong to this place in the docklands right by the hockey arena....goddamn expensive though...£32 a month ($64 USD) plus a temp membership fee...cant wait to get home in april to use my regular facilities


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## skin-and-bone (Nov 11, 2003)

They have places all over. They're charging me £35 a month.


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

This is the gym I go to. The picture dosn't do justice though. There is a massive free weight area but they dont show it because that dosn't bring in the cash. I pay $60.00 for one year. That includes multiclub membership. Here is the gym I go to.

http://lafitness.com/app/club/club?clubId=22&flow=0

The reason why I pay so little is because I have been a member for over 10 years. I think when I joined they only had 2 gyms.


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## BSF James (Sep 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by miami797
> 
> *where is fitness first? ive been giong to this place in the docklands right by the hockey arena....goddamn expensive though...£32 a month ($64 USD) plus a temp membership fee...cant wait to get home in april to use my regular facilities *


£32 a month is pretty average for gym membership in the UK. My gym is nothing like the size of fitness first - just a spit and sawdust kinda place full of free weights and I charge £30 a month. Well, I do until the 26th when I sell it.

Take a look: www.bodyshapers-fitness-centre.coms.ph

From the 26th it will no longer be a bodyshapers fitness asset and the new owner is changing the name. Blub... In a way I'm kind of sad about it... Its not all that far from London actually, but probably too far away to be anything like convenient to drive to. Bloody excellent equipment there already and the new owner is bringing in some of his own stuff too (like a T bar row - I've always wanted one of those!). We've already moved away from the gym and I'm currently training at a fitness first - the weights equipment is absolute crap in comparison. So now rather than training in my own great gym for free, I'm paying to train in a mediocre gym. Kind of ironic really.


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## OnePack (Jan 9, 2004)

> Originally posted by miami797
> 
> *. *


wtf, looks like the mask was taken from slipknot, lol


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## skin-and-bone (Nov 11, 2003)

Have you been inside Holmes place though? They're even worse than Fitness First. I wish there were more specialist gyms. It's not like a lot of people don't want to train for strength and mass.


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

> Originally posted by MatracaBergFan
> 
> *wtf, looks like the mask was taken from slipknot, lol *


Wow those guys look scary. Is their music like there masks?

http://musicfinder.yahoo.com/artist/photos/1802350593


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## OnePack (Jan 9, 2004)

i like their music! it's really scary music! if their musis would turn a comedy movie into a horror movie!

i've got both their albums, Slipknot and IOWA (named after where they came from).


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## BSF James (Sep 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by skin-and-bone
> 
> *Have you been inside Holmes place though? They're even worse than Fitness First. I wish there were more specialist gyms. It's not like a lot of people don't want to train for strength and mass. *


I haven't been to a holmes place yet. there's one in star city in Birmingham, but its too far away to be convenient for me. It looks really nice from the outside. At the end of the day, yes there are lots of people who want to train for strength and mass but they are far outweighed by people who either want or need to lose weight, get fit, socialise, etc.. Chain gyms are geared towards the bigger target market - businessmen, house wives, young professionals, fitness enthusiasts - rather than hardcore trainers.

Specialist gyms are dying a slow death in this country. We just cant compete with the chain gyms. I mean I just joined fitness first on an offer where I'm only paying £15 a month with no contract - I could never afford to offer that kind of price. We did £17 a month once but it was on a two year contract and whilst it gained us 35 members, it lost us a lot of full paying members who thought they were getting a rough deal. The members we lost were loyal and spent money in the gym, the two year members all stopped coming after two months - so it was a disaster on the whole.

These big gyms have lines and lines of cardio (which is what 90% of gym goers want), swimming pools, saunas etc.. Its impossible to compete. There are currently 14 gyms in colchester (where my gym is) - about 6 of those are non-chains. In a few months there will be only 4 left. This time next year I expect there to only be 2. Another decade and I reckon there will be very few independant gyms left in the UK. My gym is one of the safest as it has tiny overheads - we only needed about 10 members to break even - which makes it a lot easier. Almost all of the only other independant gyms that I know who are doing well these days are the ones where the owners deal a lot of gear and make their money that way. In our case we branched out into the supplements instead and that actually turned out to be the more successful business of the two.


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## Chevy (Mar 14, 2004)

MatracaBergFan you might want to check out www.biomechanical.co.uk it is my niece's boyfriends band. It's a bit heavy for me but you might like it.


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

That is a bummer Silentbob. That is kinda like watching the walmarts swallow up the mom and pop stores because they cant compete. The problem is after they monopolize the whole area they will raise their prices and then everybody looses. I feel for you mate. Expecially now paying for a gym when you never had to and the gym isn't geared for the bodybuilder.


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## miami797 (Feb 19, 2004)

slipknot are ****ing sick....not a big fan but sometimes their is no better thing to listen too then that iowa crazy ****...

you know that they vomit in those masks while on stage??? and they throw urine all ove the crowd


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## skin-and-bone (Nov 11, 2003)

> Originally posted by silentbob
> 
> *I haven't been to a holmes place yet. there's one in star city in Birmingham, but its too far away to be convenient for me. It looks really nice from the outside. At the end of the day, yes there are lots of people who want to train for strength and mass but they are far outweighed by people who either want or need to lose weight, get fit, socialise, etc.. Chain gyms are geared towards the bigger target market - businessmen, house wives, young professionals, fitness enthusiasts - rather than hardcore trainers.*
> 
> ...


I makes me feel bitter to think that all these house wives stuffing their faces with cakes, and the business guys cramming in the burgers before going to sleep, are the people that are turning the gyms into something I can't use, when most of them don't have the time/discipline to go regularly anyway.


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## skin-and-bone (Nov 11, 2003)

I think the way forward is home gyms. The initial amount of money you'd have to spend wouldn't be a big deal when you consider that you'd never have to wait to use equipment, and you wouldn't have to pay a membership fee.


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## miami797 (Feb 19, 2004)

that is a good bet, but the amount of different equipment you get at gyms is alot more then any home gym ive seen....

if you do a home gym it can be fairly cheap to start since im sure you wont be using 75-100 lb dumb bells if youre just starting to work out...that way you can start wiht what you need and just get more as you need it.........you can get a proper bench for a barbell and all..but if youre just starting i would recomend a regular flat bench or a bench you can adjust for inclines and declines...and then just buy an assortment of dumbells........dumbells can be fat better then a barbell anyway, especially for beginging........most people that can bench 225 with a barbell cant bench 100 lb dumbbells since its a bit more isolated and just harder to control...also with a regular flat bench you can do all types of other things ....

but thats just my opinion


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## skin-and-bone (Nov 11, 2003)

Unfortunately, I don't have enough space for a home gym.


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## miami797 (Feb 19, 2004)

i doubtn any of us do...but a flat bench or even a bench taht alows declines and inclend take alomt no room...and the fac tht you use dumb bells rather then a fulout bench and barbell will save you alot of room.....and this is a fairly cheap way to do it...even though i have my training facilities at my home gym i still use the flat bench with teh inclne and decline adjustments...with weight raging from 45-135...just incase i dont feel like going to gym on the crowded hours or if im up late night and want a life....

its something to consider....watch out for the machines since you cant learn proper form with them........

also, if your membership at your gym will let you have a guest, even if its for a small fee let me know...id be more then happy to have a workout with you and talk to you about some of the things you should be doing and the myths to a avoid ...

get back to me if interested.... [email protected]

i would be more then happey to have a session with you...

JUST..i repeat JUST... dont bring that axe...

youre message board buddy, miami797


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## skin-and-bone (Nov 11, 2003)

I sent you an email.


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

Well here is an option. I have a set of these at home. They go from 5-55 lbs. They also have a set that goes up to 125 lbs. They slip into each other. They take up almost no room at all. This is the exact set that I have. They are pricey though. I got them for my wife for a christmas pressent. 

Your hands fit inside them. They are actually very stable. They are called Power Bocks.


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## skin-and-bone (Nov 11, 2003)

I've been staring at that pic for 2 minutes, and I still haven't figured out what they are. Weights, obviously, but...


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## miami797 (Feb 19, 2004)

talk about a lethal weapon.....i know a few peope who use em...how much you looking to get rid of em for??? or are you just recomending them

they aer weights that you can adjust with a pin orsomehitn....thyre actually quite a good investmeant...that and a flat bench


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

> Originally posted by skin-and-bone
> 
> *I've been staring at that pic for 2 minutes, and I still haven't figured out what they are. Weights, obviously, but... *


 http://www.powerblock.com/frame.html


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## skin-and-bone (Nov 11, 2003)

Ah, right. I've probably got more weights than that already though.


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## OnePack (Jan 9, 2004)

> Originally posted by Chevy
> 
> *MatracaBergFan you might want to check out **www.biomechanical.co.uk** it is my niece's boyfriends band. It's a bit heavy for me but you might like it. *


i just took a look. wow, they are a pretty awesome lookin band. Not as heavy as slipknot but still very heavy stuff.

the web site looks cool. nice special effects and i watched the video. I thought it was just an amatuer band of teenagers (sorry for stereotyping) but they are cool. They even have their own cd! i'll definately think about buying it if i happen to see it.

thanks chevy

for those who thought i was c country fan, well, i like both metal and country (as it says on my profile)


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## OnePack (Jan 9, 2004)

> Originally posted by winger
> 
> *http://www.powerblock.com/frame.html*


i can't figure out how that works. is it a bench which can fold down into a small "block" with a barbell and some adjustable weights which fit somewhere inside the block when the bench is folded down? how does the thing work?


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

No they are dumbells that fit inside each other. You drop the pin to set the weight. Mine go to 55 lbs. They have some that go up to 120. I bought them for my wife. So I am pretty sure that she dosn't need the 120's.


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## BSF James (Sep 29, 2003)

They are really expensive. We used to sell those but I could never justify to someone why they should pay that much even for the basic set that go to 45lbs. I could buy a dumbbell rack to 50kg for not all that much more than they cost in the UK. They are probably much better priced in the US though. The powerblocks to 45lb retail at £350 (about $550) in the uk. If you want the add on to make them up to 85lb that costs an extra £204.99, and the add on to make them to 125lb costs £349. I can get a brand new rack of dumbbells for £900. That's without even shopping around for a good deal. Second hand you could probably get them for a few hundred.

When I was considering refurbing my gym, I asked a local equipment dealer how much he'd give me for my existing equipment (bear in mind that the price it was bought at was nearly £40k) and he said he'd offer me £1000. The used equipment market is flooded at the moment. Everything besides cardio is pretty cheap.

I've thought about having a home gym. There's no space in my current house though. We're only renting it though, so we may buy in a year so it could be that I'll do that then. Powertec do some nice home gym equipment. All I'd really want is a rack of dumbells, a bench, a squat stand, a barbell and plenty of olympic plates.

I bet those powerblocks are pretty good though. Space saving too. Just extremely expensive.


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## skin-and-bone (Nov 11, 2003)

Ok, well I've ordered some protein powder, and some creatine (not sure if I'll need that), and now I need to get a routine together. I've been thinking over my current situation, and have realised that time is going to be limited. So, to start out I want a routine that allows me to train monday, wednesday, and friday. I want friday to be my leg day, and I want to keep things as simple as possible. Any suggestions?


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## Jock (Apr 8, 2003)

Simple is always the best way bro.

Split up your bodypart workouts, I do:

Monday: Chest/Triceps

Tuesday: Back/Shoulders

Friday: Legs/Biceps

Build your routine around "the big 3" (squat, deadlift, bench press)

Keep reps moderate to low 6-8 and sets moderate 3-4, eat 4,500-5,000kcals per day from clean foods.

Drink 1.5-2 gallons of water a day and get 8 hours of sleep every night.

Good luck, Jock


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## miami797 (Feb 19, 2004)

dont worry about only training 3 days a week, thats perfect, especially for a begining routine.....too many people train alot more then needed and do the opposite thing to their muscles that they're training to do in the first place....

get in the gym for a few week before you start using that creatine also...


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## skin-and-bone (Nov 11, 2003)

Monday: Chest/Triceps

Tuesday: Back/Shoulders

Friday: Legs/Biceps

Right, if I went with this, how many exercises should I do per body part, and how many sets of each? Also, which exercises would be good?


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

> Originally posted by skin-and-bone
> 
> *Monday: Chest/Triceps*
> 
> ...


Monday

Bench and Incline. Scull crushers and dips.

Wednesday

Pull ups and dead lifts. Standing bicept curl and preacher bench curls.

Friday

Squats. Seated military press, side lateral raises.

3 to 4 sets per excercise, 8-10 reps.

I know it sounds basic but you are just starting out. If you notice there aren't any leg extensions and leg curls. I dont think you need them right now. Those are for shaping. Lets get a foundation first.


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## skin-and-bone (Nov 11, 2003)

Thanks a lot. Do you think it's better to have shoulders on Friday, and biceps on Wednesday, then? If it doesn't make much difference, then I'm fine with that.

One thing though. Is it possible to do skull crushers without someone to spot you?


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## Panthro (Jan 12, 2004)

> Originally posted by skin-and-bone
> 
> *Thanks a lot. Do you think it's better to have shoulders on Friday, and biceps on Wednesday, then? If it doesn't make much difference, then I'm fine with that. *
> 
> ...


id do back and bis, and shoulders and tri's TBH matey...

And, skull crushers arent called that for no reason... id be cautious doing them on your own... probably best asking someone nearby to watch you.... dont want to drop a bar on your head!


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## skin-and-bone (Nov 11, 2003)

> Originally posted by Panthro
> 
> *id do back and bis, and shoulders and tri's TBH matey...*
> 
> ...


Does anyone else have any input on what the best order would be, for body parts over the three days? I'm trying to find a common opinion.

That was my concern over skull crushers. I confess, I didn't know what they were until I looked them up, but most of the time I'll be training alone, so really I need exercises I'll have no touble with on my own. What about lying tricep extensions?


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

> Originally posted by skin-and-bone
> 
> *Does anyone else have any input on what the best order would be, for body parts over the three days? I'm trying to find a common opinion. *
> 
> ...


Lying tricept extensions are skull crushers. You dont need a spot. You can do those on your own.

Once again.

Monday

Bench and Incline. Scull crushers and dips.

Wednesday

Pull ups and dead lifts. Standing bicept curl and preacher bench curls.

Friday

Squats. Seated military press, side lateral raises.

If you divide up your routine like this you give yourself time to grow.


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## skin-and-bone (Nov 11, 2003)

Sorry, what I meant to say was shall I use dumbells for the tricep extensions?


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## skin-and-bone (Nov 11, 2003)

Thanks for posting that, by the way. That's given me something to try out now.


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## verve (Sep 10, 2003)

if,on chest day,u went in and did about 10 sets for bench press and that's it,would u grow?same for squats for legs.and military press for shoulder.thanx


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

Yea you would. They say change does a body good.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Yes, if you are stale that would work. Sometimes I take an exercise and just do that like 8 sets and call it a day for that musclegroup. That will shock your muscles into submission. Great if you dont get sore in that exercise anymore. But I would not make a habbit of it but it is ok on occasion for shocking purposes.


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## skin-and-bone (Nov 11, 2003)

I went to the gym today to get one of the personal trainers to show me the form and technique for the exercises. With the incline dumbell press, I found that my arms would shake really badly, even with stupidly light weights. I can see myself looking like a right tosser. Damn, I wish I had space for a home gym.


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

skin-and-bone said:


> I went to the gym today to get one of the personal trainers to show me the form and technique for the exercises. With the incline dumbell press, I found that my arms would shake really badly, even with stupidly light weights. I can see myself looking like a right tosser. Damn, I wish I had space for a home gym.


Every body starts out like that. Dont worry about it. Just stay in the gym and learn.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

You will be just fine skin!

Take it one day at a time. One step at a time on your journey of weightlifting.


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## skin-and-bone (Nov 11, 2003)

There aren't enough hours in the day. I need to save as much time as possible. If I didn't have access to a squat rack, or a bar for pull-ups. What leg and back exercises could I use to replace those two exercises?


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## Skin and Bone (Dec 13, 2004)

Now, if only I could remember my old password.


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