# interesting read...food myth(s)



## AllpainNoGlory (Mar 4, 2009)

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*The Myth: *When trying to gain muscle, you should eat copious amounts of protein

According to the Mayo Clinic, 10 - 35% of your daily dietary intake should be protein - whether trying to gain weight, lose weight, or maintain weight. Most of this comes from our regular food and we seldom need to take protein supplements. Even more damning for this myth are two recent studies by independent sport medicine journals in which various people (including bodybuilders) were given varying extra quantities of protein each day; summing one study up, Dr Richard Krieder from the University of Memphis said: "Although it is important for athletes to get an adequate amount of protein . . . consuming additional amounts of protein does not appear to promote muscle growth."


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## Tinytom (Sep 16, 2005)

What a load of bollox


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## rs007 (May 28, 2007)

Tinytom said:


> What a load of bollox


Nice, concise, and straight to the point - and of course completely and irrefutably correct, as any bodybuilder thrice the size of Dr Richard Krieder will testify :thumbup1:

Id like to see the bodybuilders concerned, and to know if any stimulus was applied to the rest of them to actually make their bodies require extra protein.


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## W33BAM (Dec 23, 2008)

Tinytom said:


> What a load of bollox


My exact thoughts also!!! :thumb:


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## shorty (Mar 13, 2007)

well i go by the RDA for protein for a middle aged man and have 14" inch arms so something must be working :lol:


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## toxo (Mar 11, 2008)

nasser el sombaty said he never went over 250g of protien a day even when he was

300lb+


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## Tinytom (Sep 16, 2005)

[email protected] said:


> nasser el sombaty said he never went over 250g of protien a day even when he was
> 
> 300lb+


I dont believe that for a second as on his videos he said he ate mostly chicken and zucchini while dieting.

This would mean he would be only on 1000 cals from protein so he'd have to be consuming a large amount fat to keep the calories up to a level where he wasnt catabolic.


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## rs007 (May 28, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> nasser el sombaty said he never went over 250g of protien a day even when he was
> 
> 300lb+


*said*

If you asked him what gear he was on a week, it would probably have *said* something like "2 sust, 2 deca" :lol:

Unfortunately bodybuilding is full of people who are silly enough to believe they have some secret - therefore they dont quite tell all about what they do...

All joking aside, you are going to get massive people that for whatever reason can get by on lower amounts, probably something to do with their muscle being more resilient and requiring less protein just to maintain thant the average person - but they will be the minority...


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## a.notherguy (Nov 17, 2008)

i hope that is true cos it would save me a fortune but ive never met a big guy who didnt eat alot of protein.


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## Gerry_bhoy (Dec 25, 2008)

'Mon the protein! :thumbup1:


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## big_john86 (Dec 5, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> nasser el sombaty said he never went over 250g of protien a day even when he was
> 
> 300lb+


 iv got a book and it says he eats 600 grams of protien a day pre contest


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## toxo (Mar 11, 2008)

big_john86 said:


> iv got a book and it says he eats 600 grams of protien a day pre contest


 well maybe it was 250g offseason then.


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## big_john86 (Dec 5, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> well maybe it was 250g offseason then.


could be:thumbup1:


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## AllpainNoGlory (Mar 4, 2009)

shorty said:


> well i go by the RDA for protein for a middle aged man and have 14" inch arms so something must be working :lol:


which is what its saying...its not saying if you take protein you wont gain anything its saying if you take an excess of it it would be the same as taking the rda


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## confused01 (Mar 21, 2009)

i thought it was something like a gram of protein for ever pound you weigh in orde to put on weight if not i'm wasting loads of money trying to intake enough protein  maybe i'm wrong though


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## Guest (Mar 21, 2009)

35% sounds like a decent amount of protein to me.


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## Beklet (May 13, 2005)

Con said:


> 35% sounds like a decent amount of protein to me.


Yep. I'd have thought that's around the amount most of us are eating, on a day to day basis 

10% seems a bit low though...


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## dmcc (Nov 25, 2007)

2g per kg of bodyweight is what I've always gone by...


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## rs007 (May 28, 2007)

There is a very very simple way to put this to bed once and for all, because what someone says on paper must be true, and what is actually true in reality, are very often different things.

So, I propose people post a pic, list their hieght, their wieght, and their protein intake daily. We will jsut have to assume everyone is competant to acurately count up how much protein they are taking, although I know a lot arent...

And of course there will be exceptions, a massive lean fellow with an unusually low protein intake, or the opposite, a small person with a very high protein intake (people like me)- but I am pretty sure we will see a trend soon enough ie in general, larger protein intake has built a bigger physique, somewhere in the region of a ripped bodywieght in lb of whatever their protein intake is, divided by 1.8....

So, as I am suggesting this, please allow me to go first: 5ft 11, around 14st 10lb in the pic, clearly still a good bit fat to come off, had to go to around 14st to get stageworthy.

Protein intake no less than 350g per day, muscular wieght maintained only, ie no gains, ie that was my protein requirement for MAINTENANCE only - needed to eat slightly more to get growing.










Next please


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## LittleChris (Jan 17, 2009)

Looking good there RS.

When working out your protein requirements, do you include indirect sources? e.g. 100g of rice would be the carb part of a meal if you have it with 225g of chicken, but the rice itself has protein as well.

Interested to know who counts these indirect sources and who doesn't.


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## rs007 (May 28, 2007)

LittleChris said:


> Looking good there RS.
> 
> When working out your protein requirements, do you include indirect sources? e.g. 100g of rice would be the carb part of a meal if you have it with 225g of chicken, but the rice itself has protein as well.
> 
> Interested to know who counts these indirect sources and who doesn't.


I count everything just to see, but dont count it if you know what I mean when calculating requirements and if I have met them or not. The indirect stuff doesnt add up to much in my diet (when it is going well anyway) the bulk of my protein coming from chicken, beef, eggs and protein shakes.


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## rs007 (May 28, 2007)

Come on guys, get some pics up, I am particularly interested to see a good number of the "1g per lb is all you need" contingent, and no lying now 

This will all be good real-life data for me to collect :thumbup1:

Girls, you can take part too, muscle is muscle, be it on a guys frame or a gals - muscle density doesn't vary that much if at all across gender...


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## dmcc (Nov 25, 2007)

Well I would but I'm hardly a good test subject, am I? :lol: I'm arguably taking in too little protein - in the region of 220-240g per day at the absolute most though as I'm about to add more eggs that will be going up a little. Either way, I'm still gaining.


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## LittleChris (Jan 17, 2009)

Ah I see, thanks for that RS.

I aim for 350g or thereabouts myself.


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## BigDom86 (Jul 27, 2008)

usually about 200-250g a day. i would try for more but it gets expensive. when im a bit older and have more money I will up it, but not right now as a student 

btw im going to get some new pics up soon as the one in my avatar is about 9 months old so hopefully can see some progress


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## donggle (Aug 28, 2007)

250-300g for me.

Weight 16 stones exactly.

Height 5'10.

~13-15% bf


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## Growing Lad (Feb 14, 2009)

itl be different from dieting to gaining tho.

i take

1gram per lb wen gaining and 1.5g per pound wen cutting.

wen your taking in loads of calories and carbs helping to spare the pro then too much pro can be detrimental as it has the largest TEF of any macronutrient which can hinder weight gain. however this is obviously good for fat loss.


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## BigDom86 (Jul 27, 2008)

rs2007 for that much protein you have what does an average daily diet foryou look like?


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## rs007 (May 28, 2007)

estfna said:


> 250-300g for me.
> 
> Weight 16 stones exactly.
> 
> ...


With all due respect, we need a full photo. What you think is 13-15%, what I think is 13-15% and what is actually 13-15% could well be 3 different things.

Since protein only builds maintains muscle, not fat, then it stands to reason we need to see only muscle, to correlate accurately with any given protein intake....


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## rs007 (May 28, 2007)

BigDom86 said:


> rs2007 for that much protein you have what does an average daily diet foryou look like?


Im not going into the specifics of my diet, because right now its all over the place, but the core constituents of the protein intake are

circa 300 protein powder per day, distributed, all usually around 80% protein so 240ish g of high quality protein which I drip feed through out the day,

Solid sources 450ish to g raw wieght fresh chicken breast - 103ish g there,

thats 340 ish so far, throw in half a pound raw wieght of lean steak mincethats another 50ish g there.

Giving 390ish g of protein not counting incomplete or incidental. I usually bung in some eggs too, so will be over 400 - this is me eating with a growth margin, remember.

Thats the core constituents of it the protein intake.


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## BigDom86 (Jul 27, 2008)

thats alot of protein powder lol, lucky your sponsored


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## rs007 (May 28, 2007)

BigDom86 said:


> thats alot of protein powder lol, lucky your sponsored


Maybe a lot for my size, but not a lot for some fo the guys at the top of the sport - I have a crap appetite, and its the only way I can push my protein intake.

I am very lucky I am sponsored, by what I genuinely consider to be one of the best companies in the UK - and they are Scottish 

But this can be done reasonably economically with bulk bought powders which I have used in the past and can show work out cheaper than chicken, on a grams of protein per £ basis - a lot of branded powders are the same too - and arguably a better source if implemented correctly....


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## BigDom86 (Jul 27, 2008)

RS2007 said:


> Maybe a lot for my size, but not a lot for some fo the guys at the top of the sport - I have a crap appetite, and its the only way I can push my protein intake.
> 
> I am very lucky I am sponsored, by what I genuinely consider to be one of the best companies in the UK - and they are Scottish
> 
> But this can be done reasonably economically with bulk bought powders which I have used in the past and can show work out cheaper than chicken, on a grams of protein per £ basis, and arguably a better source...


yep i use unflavoured whey and mix it with a flavoured one as im tight  works out quite reasonable.

how many scoops you have a day then? must be 10+ :bounce:


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## rs007 (May 28, 2007)

BigDom86 said:


> how many scoops you have a day then? must be 10+ :bounce:


Dont count scoops as it is meaningless! Scoop sizes vary widely, as does the density of even two packs of the same type of protein powder. I use 300ish g of powder a day - 60g ea in 5 shakes.

Anyway, nuff about me - more lean people posting pics, bodywieghts, heights and protein intakes please


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## Zara-Leoni (Mar 12, 2007)

RS2007 said:


> There is a very very simple way to put this to bed once and for all, because what someone says on paper must be true, and what is actually true in reality, are very often different things.
> 
> So, I propose people post a pic, list their hieght, their wieght, and their protein intake daily. We will jsut have to assume everyone is competant to acurately count up how much protein they are taking, although I know a lot arent...
> 
> ...


1.818gms protein per lean lb is what I stick to. That said its hard to know exactly how much of your body is fat.

I started my diet on 250gms per day, am now on 200gms per day.

5ft 2. 10st + offseason, approx 8.5 stone on stage.

Last time competed:


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## donggle (Aug 28, 2007)

RS2007 said:


> With all due respect, we need a full photo. What you think is 13-15%, what I think is 13-15% and what is actually 13-15% could well be 3 different things.
> 
> Since protein only builds maintains muscle, not fat, then it stands to reason we need to see only muscle, to correlate accurately with any given protein intake....


Fair point. no recent photo's but a have a full outline of abs when tensed... and I'm probably closer to 5'9 that 5'10! haha

Erm... imagine this photo (taken before xmas) with a semi-six pack and a few lbs more muscle haha :laugh:


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## Beklet (May 13, 2005)

RS2007 said:


> Girls, you can take part too, muscle is muscle, be it on a guys frame or a gals - muscle density doesn't vary that much if at all across gender...


I'm not a good test subject either - I have a lot of bodyfat (30%+ ) but I try to stick to 1g/lb bodyweight so around 150g a day at moment.....

Oh and I'm natty, as that may make a difference

There are new pics on the journal I'm not posting them on here


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## Uriel (Oct 14, 2008)

How much protein is in a Milky Way.....I'm doing my counting now


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## BigDom86 (Jul 27, 2008)

Uriel said:


> How much protein is in a Milky Way.....I'm doing my counting now


lol i find myself doing this. usually with yorkies as there for men. mily ways are for...


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## Guest (Mar 21, 2009)

300-350 for me depending on low/medium day.

No need for a picture there are enough of me LOL.


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## rs007 (May 28, 2007)

Con said:


> 300-350 for me depending on low/medium day.
> 
> No need for a picture there are enough of me LOL.


What sort of wieght do you expect to be, when show ready Con, you must have a fairly accurate idea?

Not that wieght is important for stage, but it is important in the comparison of protein intake vs lean body mass.

That is one fkn hell of a back mate, impressive!

I think for the purposes of accuracy, only show ready or neary show read comparisons can really be valid; in the case of yourself Esfna - and this isnt a slur, because it happens to me and everyone I know too - you could lose 10lb to a stone in your first two weeks of dieting and you wouldnt even notice much of a difference - ie your wieght just now is misleading since is comprises too many dynamic factors other than lean mass (skeleton/organs dont count as they are generally static variables). Your show wieght would be even less still, probably well sub 14st at a very rough guess.


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## Guest (Mar 21, 2009)

RS2007 said:


> What sort of wieght do you expect to be, when show ready Con, you must have a fairly accurate idea?
> 
> Not that wieght is important for stage, but it is important in the comparison of protein intake vs lean body mass.
> 
> ...


Erm.... 195-200lb i would imagine depending on how anabolic the body stays. Currently fairly depleted at 220lb. At a height of 5ft8 if that helps.


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## rs007 (May 28, 2007)

Con said:


> Erm.... 195-200lb i would imagine depending on how anabolic the body stays. Currently fairly depleted at 220lb. At a height of 5ft8 if that helps.


Our third compliant example then (Zara and me being the first two) of 1.8 per lb = maintenance - 300 to 350g you say per day, and a wieght of 195 to 200lb, not far off, not far off at all. Same height, wieght, and protein intake as Weeman last year I might add 

Now, I am not an expert, i am only commenting on what I have observed in nearly 2 decades, but if I were you con, carrying as much muscle as you do, Id pin that hard at 350g per day quality protein minimum. It roughly equates that 25g of protein has the ability to maintain approx 14lb of lean mass, so by swinging nearly twice that, you could be jeapordising some of that hard earned muscle you are carrying so well :thumbup1:

Just my thoughts mate, feel free to ignore, you clearly have a good idea of where you are going...

But anyway, so far, the body builders we can clearly say sit right in the band of approx 1.8g, of protein per lb for maintenance is:

Con

RS2007

Zara Leoni

I have a dozen more I could add ( i done this experiment previously with a wide range of competitive bbers) but will not, to keep this fair.

Would love TinyTom and PScarbs input and stats here too, for my own interest.


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## Guest (Mar 21, 2009)

Sorry about the pic, i need to take some new ones. It is from Jan. 2009. I am a hair under 6 feet tall and weigh 227lbs as of this morning. I consume about 300-325 grams of protein a day


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## Prodiver (Nov 14, 2008)

RS2007 as always makes excellent points. But here are a few factors to be taken into consideration.

You need to be aware of "protein sparing": you need to eat enough carbs for your energy requirements, otherwise some or most of the protein you eat will be converted into glycogen.

If so, you will tend to assume that you need extra amounts of protein to put on muscle, as your body becomes accustomed to using a proportion of your protein as carbs.

If you eat sufficient carbs to spare your protein, any protein that you don't use - metabolize - will be excreted - which is why excess can be detected in your urine and, long-term, is bad for your kidneys.

The US Bureau of Food, and others, discovered that most males metabolize about 0.8 grams protein per kg bodyweight per day; moderate phyisical workers metabolize about 1.2 gms/kg/day; and hard-working physical labourers and growing athletes such as powerlifters and bodybuilders metabolize about 1.9gms/kg/day.

This approximates to roughly 2gms/kg/day, or the slightly higher 1 gm/pound/day, and as you can see is double what a normal male needs.

This relatively small amount shouldn't be surprising, as the human body is extremely efficient at making the best use of nutrients, which is why on plentiful diets we easily get porky, and big red meat eaters tend to get big and muscular.

To consume much in excess of this is potentially a dangerous waste - except perhaps where very large amounts of steroids, HGH and insulin, etc. can be induced to force protein take up.

But even then, the amount of extra protein needed would equate to a maximum of about 30% of the additional muscle weight the gear taker could put on above what he would naturally (because muscle is about 30% protein/70% water).

So if he might expect to gain 10 kg a year naturally, but 20 kg on gear, he would only need 0.3 x (20-10) = 3.3 kg protein extra per year, or about 10 gms a day...

(Let the flaming begin... :laugh


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## weeman (Sep 6, 2007)

heres me last year at 212lbs,i'm just under 5'9" and as RS mentioned above was on a consistent 350g prot a day,eventually came down to just over 200lbs when stage ready


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## Uriel (Oct 14, 2008)

can't rep you you at the moment pro. Good information


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## Guest (Mar 21, 2009)

Great post Patrick....repped...... Great information


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## weeman (Sep 6, 2007)

prodiver i understand what your saying but in practise i think most will tend to find it different gravy,i've tried every sort of variant there is diet wise when it comes to prot/carb/fat numbers consumed in a day versus lean muscle gain,if i stuck to the just over 1g per lb of bodyweight i get markedly weaker and stringy,and thats with plenty of carbs,typically off season i will have around the 400g a day mark of carbs which is plenty,especially so in my case where i am not overly active during the day ie dont have a heavy labouring job etc.

Apart from those genetically gifted amongst us i dont think you will find many advanced bodybuilders able to make lean tissue gains when protein is kept at that level,i certainly have found the case that way anyway and also as mentioned RS did an extensive survey with many competitive athletes a little while ago to find if the trend remained the same amongst them as well.


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## donggle (Aug 28, 2007)

RS2007 said:


> I think for the purposes of accuracy, only show ready or neary show read comparisons can really be valid; in the case of yourself Esfna - and this isnt a slur, because it happens to me and everyone I know too - you could lose 10lb to a stone in your first two weeks of dieting and you wouldnt even notice much of a difference - ie your wieght just now is misleading since is comprises too many dynamic factors other than lean mass (skeleton/organs dont count as they are generally static variables). Your show wieght would be even less still, probably well sub 14st at a very rough guess.


I completely agree with you mate. If I diet to show condition I would be over the moon with 14 stone in good nick. I'd probably be closer to 13 and half though!


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## rs007 (May 28, 2007)

Prodiver said:


> RS2007 as always makes excellent points. But here are a few factors to be taken into consideration.
> 
> You need to be aware of "protein sparing": you need to eat enough carbs for your energy requirements, otherwise some or most of the protein you eat will be converted into glycogen.
> 
> ...


No flame here!

Yep, a lot of factors, but we cant pin them all.

What I say is in my own case I know 350g was my maintenance level because after I competed I held condition for a long time, and gained no muscle - but I got very very gradually fatter, implying carbs were just a little over maintenance too, ie ample, ie sparing the protien for its true purpose. I only started growing in actual muscle terms when I put protein to 375 minimum, but gunning for 400, and the strength increases I experienced were next level for me - AAS usage was the same at that point (upped temporarily since as an experiment but back down now), everything just took off with that extra protein.

The trend will show mostly that the 1.8 rule is about as accurate a yardstick as we are going to get - and this rules out protein getting used as energy to a certain degree, since, its near impossible we were all taking in the exact same amount of excess, or the same carb deficit, to maintain the ratio...


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## rs007 (May 28, 2007)

Hamster said:


> Stage pic....bugger know protein intake...i just guessed :laugh:
> 
> Second pic from this morning at 180g per day.
> 
> Im normally about 10st off season.


Looking "fecking disgusting" Hamster :lol:

You look fantastic. What weight are you in the second pic, if I may be so bold?


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## Uriel (Oct 14, 2008)

Bloody excellent discussion, good back up info from RS and Weeman. Great that you guys log your food intake so accurately.

I just know how many fistfulls of spuds, rice, chicken and steak I have. I need to pay more attention.


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## Uriel (Oct 14, 2008)

Hamster, Can you see someones knob moving around in there when you get Lucky?

Very Lean now


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## weeman (Sep 6, 2007)

Hamster said:


> Stage pic....bugger know protein intake...i just guessed :laugh:
> 
> Second pic from this morning at 180g per day.
> 
> Im normally about 10st off season.


looking lean Hammy,10 weeks out,your gner be shreeded with a capital FKN!


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## Prodiver (Nov 14, 2008)

RS2007 said:


> No flame here!
> 
> Yep, a lot of factors, but we cant pin them all.
> 
> ...


Well I'm happy to say I find Ramsay's and Weeman's arguments and actual experience persuasive.

My question then is, though, what level of gear, etc. are they taking?

It would be interesting to ascertain how many gms equivalent of testosterone per kg bodyweight they take on cycle, off cycle and average, and compare this to gms protein per kg bodyweight consumed total and above the empirical maintenance level, to discover how much protein the body can be forced to take up...


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## rs007 (May 28, 2007)

Hamster said:


> I know..i have a right complex about looking disgustin and like a man!!
> 
> Stage pic i have no clue what i weighed on stage...around 57k i think.
> 
> ...


You dont look like a man hamster, I dont find men attractive as a rule (make an exception for Darren and Patrick tho:lol but you are a very attractive lady.

Natural or not, you are heading to land right in the band as well, if anything Id say your protein is slightly too low at the moment, but thats up to you - you clearly know your stuff.

So far the list of 1.8g/lb compliant BBers is:

Con

Zara

Me

Weeman

and looks like Hamster too going by the visual evidence and the intake figures..

I would say Estfna too given what he is eating and the wieght I think he would come in at if prepped right, but I concede I cant really include him as he is too far out, and it would look like I was just trying to manipulate the figures.


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## Uriel (Oct 14, 2008)

Hamster said:


> I feel fat!!!
> 
> Want to be leaner but Paul S had a right go at me today for complaining :laugh:
> 
> Can see your Knob :whistling:


Your going to be cling film ripped:thumb:


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## MaKaVeLi (Aug 12, 2008)

Hamster stop complaining!!  you look fecking fantastic and are already lean as fcuk and still 9 weeks until your show!!

Right now I'm eating approx 120g fat, 300g carbs and 330g protein


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## dmcc (Nov 25, 2007)

RS2007 said:


> I dont find men attractive as a rule (make an exception for Darren and Patrick tho:lol


And you claimed to me that you weren't a cock tease (though I'd smash you like plates at a Greek wedding).

I've been reading this debate with interest and TBH I don't think there's a one-size-fits-all solution. It has, though, got me thinking that I'm not eating enough protein; just as well I have a kitchen full of eggs, meat and whey powder. An extra 50-70g a day won't be hard and that would put me near the 300g mark. Trial and error.


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## Zara-Leoni (Mar 12, 2007)

RS2007 said:


> Our third compliant example then (Zara and me being the first two) of 1.8 per lb = maintenance - 300 to 350g you say per day, and a wieght of 195 to 200lb, not far off, not far off at all. Same height, wieght, *and protein intake as Weeman last year I might add*
> 
> Now, I am not an expert, i am only commenting on what I have observed in nearly 2 decades, but if I were you con, carrying as much muscle as you do, Id pin that hard at 350g per day quality protein minimum. It roughly equates that 25g of protein has the ability to maintain approx 14lb of lean mass, so by swinging nearly twice that, you could be jeapordising some of that hard earned muscle you are carrying so well :thumbup1:
> 
> ...


Same..... I could also name many who adhere to similar levels.


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## rs007 (May 28, 2007)

Prodiver said:


> Well I'm happy to say I find Ramsay's and Weeman's arguments and actual experience persuasive.
> 
> My question then is, though, what level of gear, etc. are they taking?
> 
> It would be interesting to ascertain how many gms equivalent of testosterone per kg bodyweight they take on cycle, off cycle and average, and compare this to gms protein per kg bodyweight consumed total and above the empirical maintenance level, to discover how much protein the body can be forced to take up...


That is a fantastic thought process, and one I addressed RE myself lightly in one of my posts.

I have seen no real correlation, individual response to gear seems to vary so much. At that time, I was using 750mg test per week, 500mg deca, I dropped that a good bit out from the show, and went to 100mg prop eod, and some winstrol and that was it - that took me into the figures mentioned.

Weeman takes a pile more than me, by his own admission probably wastes a lot of what he is taking, yet his lean ripped wieght obeyed the rule too...

Now this bit is just my opinion, but I dont necessarily think that a bigger guy automatically requires more gear. It doesnt work like food, it isnt like muscle is built using the actual molecules of the steroid - the steroid just provides a signal. What will determine the amount of gear you need to take for what effect, is the sensitivity of you to recieving that signal - purely in my opinion I must stress. Gear is somehting I havent looked into as much, simply because I dont beleive it is the biggest piece of the puzzle - I shoot and forget (much like my bedroom performance, to the angst of the missus :lol: )


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## rs007 (May 28, 2007)

MaKaVeLi said:


> Hamster stop complaining!!  you look fecking fantastic and are already lean as fcuk and still 9 weeks until your show!!
> 
> Right now I'm eating approx 120g fat, 300g carbs and 330g protein


You are reasonably lean if your avatar is recent. Bodywieght?


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## MaKaVeLi (Aug 12, 2008)

RS2007 said:


> You are reasonably lean if your avatar is recent. Bodywieght?


Cheers mate I weigh around 217 (7 lbs most likely all water due to the dbol)


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## rs007 (May 28, 2007)

MaKaVeLi said:



> Cheers mate I weigh around 217 (7 lbs most likely all water due to the dbol)


Well you are bang in the limits of the trend too - do the math - say if you were to shred up comp-ready, you would be around or a bit under 190-200.... very hard to be exact hence why I say in the limit of the trend.

:thumbup1:

PS, not ar$e licking or anything, but your shape is outstanding mak, cant wait to see how you progress over time.


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## Guest (Mar 21, 2009)

RS2007 said:


> Well you are bang in the limits of the trend too - do the math - say if you were to shred up comp-ready, you would be around or a bit under 190-200.... very hard to be exact hence why I say in the limit of the trend.
> 
> :thumbup1:
> 
> PS, not ar$e licking or anything, but your shape is outstanding mak, cant wait to see how you progress over time.


Don't I make the list RS?? 227lbs with 300-315 grams of protein


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## weeman (Sep 6, 2007)

Prodiver said:


> Well I'm happy to say I find Ramsay's and Weeman's arguments and actual experience persuasive.
> 
> My question then is, though, what level of gear, etc. are they taking?
> 
> It would be interesting to ascertain how many gms equivalent of testosterone per kg bodyweight they take on cycle, off cycle and average, and compare this to gms protein per kg bodyweight consumed total and above the empirical maintenance level, to discover how much protein the body can be forced to take up...


at the time of that pic,4 weeks out,i was using 200mg prop eod,200mg eq eod,150mg mast eod(which turned out not to be masteron at all grrrr),50mg winny ed,5iu gh 2 on 1 off.

In the weeks previous to that i was using 500mg test e eod,100mg prop eod,200mg eq eod 



Hamster said:


> Like i say....dont feel lean...feel i need to be leaner at 9 weeks out and have some cuts in the legs at least.
> 
> Im panicking today and sh!tting it.


stop worrying,your legs will come in,it tend sto be a typical trait in most women i think that their legs and lower body in general come in slower/last.

The girl in our gym doing trained showed us how she was looking at around the 8 week out mark and her upper body is READY ready,really shredded but her lower body is taking much longer to come in,tho now thats happening too as theres nothing left anywhere else on her for it to come off,she too isnt using any gear.


----------



## MaKaVeLi (Aug 12, 2008)

RS2007 said:


> Well you are bang in the limits of the trend too - do the math - say if you were to shred up comp-ready, you would be around or a bit under 190-200.... very hard to be exact hence why I say in the limit of the trend.
> 
> :thumbup1:
> 
> PS, not ar$e licking or anything, but your shape is outstanding mak, cant wait to see how you progress over time.


Yes I try to stick above 300 grams per day no matter what, thanks again I appreciate it. You look big and very lean in your pics, how long have you been training if you don't mind me asking? Well I'm only 3 weeks into my cycle so time will tell, seem to be responding well to gear so far though:thumbup1:


----------



## Prodiver (Nov 14, 2008)

RS2007 said:


> That is a fantastic thought process, and one I addressed RE myself lightly in one of my posts.
> 
> I have seen no real correlation, individual response to gear seems to vary so much. At that time, I was using 750mg test per week, 500mg deca, I dropped that a good bit out from the show, and went to 100mg prop eod, and some winstrol and that was it - that took me into the figures mentioned.
> 
> ...


Hmmm... I'm not so sure. A study I can't quickly access found a direct correlation between lean muscle mass gained and steroid intake for a given exercise routine and diet.

They apparently didn't explore the upper levels of gear intake because of the short and long-term side effects!

But one would expect an s-curve of effectiveness - the curve would prob flatten off at the top as you became a human jelly...

Also the gain per mg was remarkably consistent between all the males who took part. Differences for bodybuilders in non-controlled situations (real life) can be attributed to other variables like diet and workout routine...

Pity they didn't appear to compare gear intake and protein intake...


----------



## rs007 (May 28, 2007)

zeus87529 said:


> Don't I make the list RS?? 227lbs with 300-315 grams of protein


On the face of it Zeus you actually make the list of people that dont match the trend - if you were in obeyance of the rule you would only wiegh 180ish.

Having said that, you might well make the trend - if you dont mind me saying, you are carrying a fair bit "extra"... (zeus strikes RS off friends list) 

Cant really include you either way, bit like estfna you are too far out to accurately tell one way or the other - have you ever been show ready/shredded in the past? If so what wieght were you, and how many g of protein were you taking then?

Bodyfat needs to be very low simply to get this protein irrelevant factor out of the equation....


----------



## rs007 (May 28, 2007)

Prodiver said:


> Hmmm... I'm not so sure. A study I can't quickly access found a direct correlation between lean muscle mass gained and steroid intake for a given exercise routine and diet.
> 
> They apparently didn't explore the upper levels of gear intake because of the short and long-term side effects!
> 
> ...


As I say, I was going purely on gut feeling and opinion ont hat last bit, thinking out loud really. I am only basing it on myself and weeman, not enough samples to form a trend.


----------



## Zara-Leoni (Mar 12, 2007)

Hamster said:


> What do you aim to be this time on stage?
> 
> Apart from PP were does you protein come from as in solid food?


I was 8st 6 in that pic....

I hope to come in approx 8st 7 this year - with (at a guess) 5lbs ish more muscle but leaner....

Protein comes from:

Extreme Protein

Eggnation Liquid Eggwhites

Chicken

Salmon

Fillet Steak


----------



## Guest (Mar 21, 2009)

RS2007 said:


> On the face of it Zeaus you actually make the list of people that dont match the trend - if you were in obeyance of the rule you would only wiegh 180ish.
> 
> Having said that, you might well make the trend - if you dont mind me saying, you are carrying a fair bit... (zeus strikes RS off friends list)
> 
> ...


I am currently 14% bodyfat. You are still my friend RS I probably look higher in the pic, but hold alot of water when on creatine. I will have to take some current full body pics. I am actually in pretty good shape.

Yes I have competed in the past. Was eating far more protein when I was using aas. I came in onstage at 202lbs and was eating about 375-400 grams of protein per day


----------



## anabolic ant (Jun 5, 2008)

there is no standard or correct amount for any group or population of people,simply because we are all different by DNA,therefore we all require differing amounts of protein ingestion...we all digest and utilise protein for the demands our bodies place on it,protein turnover,metabolism,assimilation etc etc etc is all different even if by NMOLs(nano-mols)...so this given by this doctor is a skimming the surface load of old twollox!!!!

you can see from many of the posts here already,everyones intake is different...so the doc needs to really bend over and take a shafting for this poo poo info!!!!


----------



## Prodiver (Nov 14, 2008)

Ramsay, Weeman - and anyone else - you please try to estimate as closely as possible:

1. how much gear in mg you took per day on-cycle (total per n days/n)

2. your starting bodyweight

3. your final bodyweight

(these should give roughly your lean muscle mass increase)

5. your protein intake per kg/day

Then you/we can work out your lean mass gained per day per gm protein per mg gear...


----------



## Prodiver (Nov 14, 2008)

anabolic ant said:


> there is no standard or correct amount for any group or population of people,simply because we are all different by DNA,therefore we all require differing amounts of protein ingestion...we all digest and utilise protein for the demands our bodies place on it,protein turnover,metabolism,assimilation etc etc etc is all different even if by NMOLs(nano-mols)...so this given by this doctor is a skimming the surface load of old twollox!!!!
> 
> you can see from many of the posts here already,everyones intake is different...so the doc needs to really bend over and take a shafting for this poo poo info!!!!


Hmmm... Again, I think you'll find that most people in any given society metabolize protein at a remarkably consistent rate for a given activity - it's the old bell-curve again...


----------



## rs007 (May 28, 2007)

anabolic ant said:


> there is no standard or correct amount for any group or population of people,simply because we are all different by DNA,therefore we all require differing amounts of protein ingestion...we all digest and utilise protein for the demands our bodies place on it,protein turnover,metabolism,assimilation etc etc etc is all different even if by NMOLs(nano-mols)...so this given by this doctor is a skimming the surface load of old twollox!!!!
> 
> *you can see from many of the posts here already,everyones intake is different...so the doc needs to really bend over and take a shafting for this poo poo info!!!!*


Not really different? Well it is, but its the same give or take a margin, when related back to lean/ripped wieght - the ratio is the same, at the very least there is a definite correlation between protein intake and size on a given frame, so yeah, doctor needs a punch in the head :thumbup1:

On a side note, while we are all different, I don't believe we are all that different - I think this is bandied about far too much as a get out for why something does or doesnt work as expected, when it is more probable that the person concerned has misinterpreted or missed an important factor altogether...


----------



## rs007 (May 28, 2007)

Prodiver said:


> Ramsay, Weeman - and anyone else - you please try to estimate as closely as possible:
> 
> 1. how much gear in mg you took per day on-cycle (total per n days/n)
> 
> ...


The only thing I can give you since that pic is my protein intake, which has been ramped up to 400, but since fell back down for one reason or another. I havent been consistent enough since then to take any stats that would be relevant; I have also put on a lot of fat, so that would skew.

For the 18 or so weeks run in on that last diet, I was dieting; again that will skew - lost wieght not gained, although still using obviously.

I think for the particular experiment you are proposing, people would have to start off ripped, and be similar at the end, ie have gained no appreciable fat over the course of the cycle, for the results to be in anyway valid. After all, I could start a course and just use 250mg sust - 400g protien - but 1kg of carbs, and put on 3 stone in 8 weeks :lol:

Someone else could do the same, put on 5 or 6lb on a totally different gear usage, stay the same amount of bf (ie bf% goes down due to the addition of muscle) and that would be a lot more applicable - but would look like a lesser result due to lesser poundage gained.

Bodyfat and excess stomach content etc is the one major thing that skews all this right off, sometimes into irrelevance; which is why I stick to very lean/ripped bb'ers for my info - no disrespect to the guys who have given off season wieghts and protein intakes here - but you WILL lose more than you think you have to lose, your never as lean as you think 

Unless you are weeman, who usually gets heavier and leaner at the same , bloody enigma :blink: :lol:


----------



## weeman (Sep 6, 2007)

Prodiver said:


> Ramsay, Weeman - and anyone else - you please try to estimate as closely as possible:
> 
> 1. how much gear in mg you took per day on-cycle (total per n days/n)*for the first 8-10 wks i was using 900mg eod whatever that works out at per day (low carbs brain frazzled,sorry lol)*
> 
> ...


----------



## weeman (Sep 6, 2007)

RS2007 said:


> The only thing I can give you since that pic is my protein intake, which has been ramped up to 400, but since fell back down for one reason or another. I havent been consistent enough since then to take any stats that would be relevant; I have also put on a lot of fat, so that would skew.
> 
> For the 18 or so weeks run in on that last diet, I was dieting; again that will skew - lost wieght not gained, although still using obviously.
> 
> ...


lol that was actually the case this year at the start before things went t1ts up!


----------



## rs007 (May 28, 2007)

*Bodybuilders proving the 1.8g of prot per lean lb maintenance:*

Con

Zara

Me

Weeman

Hamster *probably*

Makaveli *probably*

*Bodybuilders taking MORE than 1.8g per lean lb:*

zeus87529

*Bodybuilders taking LESS than 1.8g per lean lb:*

none yet

Would genuinely love to see anyone stepping on stage, having got to that particular ripped weight, with a protein intake lower than 1.8g per lb - I do think they will exist, but I do think they will be a genetic anomaly and hence a rarity...


----------



## ba baracuss (Apr 26, 2004)

I think gear use has a lot of relevance to the protein 'rules'.

Gear is known to increase protein synthesis for a start.

I personally think the body gets used to eating more and more protein over time in terms of enzymes etc because so many people buy the 'more protein is better' argument. I don't.

I'd like to see typical protein consumption of JW and Nytol as I've often seen both mention that their diets aren't great, yet both carry a lot of mass.


----------



## Prodiver (Nov 14, 2008)

weeman said:


> lol that was actually the case this year at the start before things went t1ts up!


Yes, well, Weeman proves all Ramsay's caveats coz he took loadsa gear, ate loadsa protein and lost weight... 

Like to know what your lean mass muscle gain was over that period though Weeman...


----------



## rs007 (May 28, 2007)

Ba, your points are interesting and valid, definitely - I'm addressing them one at a time but remember, I need to stress - just my thoughts and opinions!!!



ba baracuss said:


> I think gear use has a lot of relevance to the protein 'rules'.
> 
> Gear is known to increase protein synthesis for a start.


Yep, so by virtue a user can metabolise more protein. BUT - steroids also decrease catabolism - the amount of tissue broken down. So, a natural will experience higher catabolsim. So they will need ot eat more protein on those grounds, to offset this and retain +ve nitrogen balance.

So in reality, might it not make that much a difference? Certainly hamster says she is natural, and for whatever reasons, she is going to land right in the 1.8g per lb bracket too...



ba baracuss said:


> I personally think the body gets used to eating more and more protein over time in terms of enzymes etc because so many people buy the 'more protein is better' argument. I don't.


I am beginning to think this too - if you take in less, your body should get more efficient and use it better - maybe protein cycling is something to try? Low for a period, but not too low... then burst high... then as the body comes adjusted, drop it again? Just thinking out loud.

Anyway, is it possible that the vast majority of the bodybuilders adhering to the 1.8 rule could have adjusted the exact same? I suppose it could be.



ba baracuss said:


> I'd like to see typical protein consumption of JW and Nytol as I've often seen both mention that their diets aren't great, yet both carry a lot of mass.


Definitely - just because there diets arent that great, doesnt mean they arent getting the protein in... my diet is utter sh1te right now, if anything I am getting more protein becasue I am still making sure I get my staple sources, and then the incidental from teh crap I am eating will push it up even further, PLUS give calorific support to ensure the protein isnt getting wasted... so this must always be considered.

Anyway, JWs gimpy arm will require less than his non-gimpy one, so that would skew his result anyway - null and void  :lol:


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## Prodiver (Nov 14, 2008)

RS2007 said:


> *Bodybuilders proving the 1.8g of prot per lean lb maintenance:*
> 
> Con
> 
> ...


Sorry I haven't got a pic other than my avvy but I have clearly put on muscle over the last 2 months or so: I weigh about 127 kg and I reckon I eat about 260-300 gms protein a day. Perhaps I'd better increase it...

I'm a little bit porky at present so I may not be eligible for inclusion...


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## rs007 (May 28, 2007)

Prodiver said:


> Yes, well, Weeman proves all Ramsay's caveats coz he took loadsa gear, ate loadsa protein and lost weight...
> 
> Like to know what your lean mass muscle gain was over that period though Weeman...


 :lol:

I am talking about ultimate maintenance - how much protein for how much muscle.

Growth and lean tissue gain is different gravy - obviously you must eat more than maintenance, this is clear - but how much? I dont know? I can tell you in most of the cases I have looked at, there is radically different gear use, yet everyone seems to be in a state where each 25g of protein will allow another stone of lean wieght to be held. But this is totally different from saying "up your protein 25g, and youll gain a stone"

Or is it?

There is a lot more involved in growth and the achievable rate of growth than I could ever consider, probably the RATE of growth will tie more heavily to gear dosages:confused1:

Dont know, other than eat more than your maintenance to grow, I dont know - common sense says go up a little... how it ties in with gear use is a mystery to me, but you ahve started me thinking now! :thumbup1:


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## rs007 (May 28, 2007)

Prodiver said:


> Sorry I haven't got a pic other than my avvy but I have clearly put on muscle over the last 2 months or so: I weigh about 127 kg and I reckon I eat about 260-300 gms protein a day. Perhaps I'd better increase it...
> 
> I'm a little bit porky at present so I may not be eligible for inclusion...


Without being offensive... aren't you missing a leg? Dont know how or if that would skew things. You could be the first person to be in the "under 1.8 bracket" - but I genuinely unbiasedly believe its impossible to accurately deduce where you sit unless you were very lean...

Have you ever got shredded, and do you know the protein level you were having to take to maintain that - assuming ample carbs to meet energy demands too of course?


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## Guest (Mar 21, 2009)

Prodiver said:


> Sorry I haven't got a pic other than my avvy but I have clearly put on muscle over the last 2 months or so: I weigh about 127 kg and I reckon I eat about 260-300 gms protein a day. Perhaps I'd better increase it...
> 
> I'm a little bit porky at present so I may not be eligible for inclusion...


If you are consuming over maintance carbs and fats why would you need more protein than this.....

Perhaps i miss the point but i am currently dieting when i eat 300p i am taking about 230c when i take 350p i am taking 130c, my calories have to come from some where

When i am eating a calorie excess i can grow on about 200-250p just due to the increased carb and fat OBVIOUSLY as i eat pretty clean i have more protein than that simply because of how my diet works out.

Protein does not directly convert to muscle in fact over all consumption of protein is not a direct relation to muscle growth as much as people would like to imagine its far more complex than that.

You guys have me confused i will leave it to you:beer:


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## Growing Lad (Feb 14, 2009)

surely none of this is comparable as even if you find the trend of people eating 1.8g pro per lb...they all have different levels of energy nutrients (Carbs and fats).? which as we know spare pro?

e.g wee man may have been having 4g carbs per kg and Zar 2g carbs per kg? (while having pro at 1.8 per pound)


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## Guest (Mar 21, 2009)

Growing Lad said:


> surely none of this is comparable as even if you find the trend of people eating 1.8g pro per lb...they all have different levels of energy nutrients (Carbs and fats).? which as we know spare pro?
> 
> e.g wee man may have been having 4g carbs per kg and Zar 2g carbs per kg? (while having pro at 1.8 per pound)


In a perfect world every gram of protein would be utilised only for body repair and growth fat would be used for body functions and carbs purely for energy, nothing would be wasted and no fat would be gained. Sadly this is not the case thus precise numbers are useless its all rough guestimates in the same way that we cant work out exactly how many calories we need to survive every day as there are ongoing variables!


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## Prodiver (Nov 14, 2008)

RS2007 said:


> Without being offensive... aren't you missing a leg? Dont know how or if that would skew things. You could be the first person to be in the "under 1.8 bracket" - but I genuinely unbiasedly believe its impossible to accurately deduce where you sit unless you were very lean...
> 
> Have you ever got shredded, and do you know the protein level you were having to take to maintain that - assuming ample carbs to meet energy demands too of course?


Yes - I very prob need less protein as I'm about 20% deficient in muscle (most of one leg) :laugh: Mind you I run hotter now and radiate more calories...

Haven't been really shredded since I was a fvcking fit young diver... Damn! Takes a big hammer to drive a long nail though...


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## rs007 (May 28, 2007)

Prodiver said:


> Takes a big hammer to drive a long nail though...


 :lol:


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## rs007 (May 28, 2007)

Protein can only be spared up to a point, ie that of which it has all been spared. Adding more carbs at this point cant "free up" any more protein - therefore it has to be there in an adequate amount in the first place.

At the end of a show diet, where most of my samples are taken from, overall calorific intake per individual will be rationally the same Id be willing to bet - think about it, no one does anything THAT drastically different coming into show, the majority of people draw their information from the same sources, and at the end of the day, the mirror dictates, and doesnt lie - we all (if the prep is good) hit ground zero...

But that could be one thing I need to raise about the 1.8 rule - all the samples that I have that correlate this with bodywieghts were in or at the conclusion of a show diet, or very lean already. Metabolic rates, while individually varied, will have been over all elevated.

Could it be, that in the off season, with metabolism going a little bit slower, you could get away with less intake, since the machine is processing slower?

In that case I am with JW, fk that - up the dose, get on T3 and eat like a horse, life is too short


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## Prodiver (Nov 14, 2008)

I've just had a thought: probably the best way to be sure you're ingesting sufficient protein yet not wasting any, ie. metabolizing all you consume, is to measure your urinary protein daily.

Proteinuria means you're wasting it, but if no protein shows you could up your intake until it just begins to.

There are test sticks available for this I think...


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## rs007 (May 28, 2007)

Prodiver said:


> I've just had a thought: probably the best way to be sure you're ingesting sufficient protein yet not wasting any, ie. metabolizing all you consume, is to measure your urinary protein daily.
> 
> Proteinuria means you're wasting it, but if no protein shows you could up your intake until it just begins to.
> 
> There are test sticks available for this I think...


 :thumbup1:

Might give good forewarning of problems too...


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## Prodiver (Nov 14, 2008)

RS2007 said:


> :thumbup1:
> 
> Might give good forewarning of problems too...


Yes - especially for gear users.

Here you go:

http://www.uritest.co.uk/?gclid=CKq8ssuPtZkCFQwNGgod62EG6w


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## d4ead (Nov 3, 2008)

i read a great post that had both dr's this guy and the original one that had siad 'eat a lot more protein' argueing there cases it was very interesating but ultimatley they agreed to disagree. reason being the original idea of eating more protein came from live study on colledge football kids the other was mainy theory. simple fact was the realality didnt match the theory. more protein was needed in real life to grow. i guess its down to the individual to test there own bodys in reality cos everyone responds differently


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

180 grams for me, many days less, I weigh 220lbs

I feel most eat too much protein, the more you take in the more your enzymes turn you into a protein burning machine.

Best shape I ever was in I followed 40/30/30 (zone) diet, lost tons of fat and condition was best ever in my life at 37 years old.

Had a smaller waist and more strenght than when I was 18, been training since 15 years old and am almost 50 now.

Seen a vegetarian dude in my gym, fantastic ripped shape, very strong, very lean with tons of muscle. He gave me his diet, I said it was too low in protein, he said, well I look awesome, he did, so I just shut my mouth.

Remember, some food combining makes complete proteins too.

Again, I feel most put too much emphesis on protein, and far too much on powders.


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## anabolic ant (Jun 5, 2008)

Prodiver said:


> Hmmm... Again, I think you'll find that most people in any given society metabolize protein at a remarkably consistent rate for a given activity - it's the old bell-curve again...


i guess if we are talking rates...then a bell shape is fitting but to generalise and say that we all need that same amount is a little absurd since a 9 stone bodybuilders protein requirements are different to 18 stone bodybuilders...this percentage of protein is dependant on actual demand for protein amount...i think he said 35% is the mark...but doesnt figure vary with different types of activity...ok,we can say a certain amount may be optimum for growth,but this is still not particular or specific should i say in percentage needed for an individual!!!!

i do agree there is a range of values that can be representative of enough to cause growth,repair,recovery etc...but i was thinking on a more individual basis...i guess we all work the same physiologically,digestion,metabolisation,assimilation...but putting a mark on percentage to ones growth could be a bit non-specific...

the value must vary and as with size/muscle mass/strength increase and this may represent a more sigmoidal curve...where those factors increase with protein intake...


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## Tinytom (Sep 16, 2005)

You asked for my input

Pic below is a recent pic where I am on 350g protein, 110g carbs and 120g fats at 88kg.

Off season my protein doesnt change just my carbs.

actually edit that, off season I have more protein but normally around 50-60g more because I add another whey scoop to my PWO shake.


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## Goose (Jan 29, 2009)

You look insanely good there Tom!


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## Prodiver (Nov 14, 2008)

Tinytom said:


> You asked for my input
> 
> Pic below is a recent pic where I am on 350g protein, 110g carbs and 120g fats at 88kg.
> 
> ...


WOOF! Looking good Tom! :wink:

Can we ask what gear you were taking on that diet?


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## Tinytom (Sep 16, 2005)

Prodiver said:


> WOOF! Looking good Tom! :wink:
> 
> Can we ask what gear you were taking on that diet?


500mg Testex

200mg Tren Hex

50mg Winstrol/day

100mg Proviron/day

50ug T3

100ug T4


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## Tinytom (Sep 16, 2005)

Goose said:


> You look insanely good there Tom!


Thanks mate

I've dropped a few kilos since that pic but no muscle :thumb:


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## Goose (Jan 29, 2009)

Tinytom said:


> Thanks mate
> 
> I've dropped a few kilos since that pic but no muscle :thumb:


Awesome mate. Did you do much cardio whilst still running the T3/T4? I'm in a predicament. Bulking currently on 350g Protein, 450g Carbs and 90grams of fats.

Up to 103kg from 92kg in 5 weeks! But BF still isnt reducing. If doing cardio it would mean doing it at 5:30am before work


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## Tinytom (Sep 16, 2005)

Goose said:


> Awesome mate. Did you do much cardio whilst still running the T3/T4? I'm in a predicament. Bulking currently on 350g Protein, 450g Carbs and 90grams of fats.
> 
> Up to 103kg from 92kg in 5 weeks! But BF still isnt reducing. If doing cardio it would mean doing it at 5:30am before work


I do 40 minutes before breakfast and 40 minutes PWO in the evening mate.

What fats are you using? I noticed that olive oil made me leaner without any cardio or drop in calories when I was off season.

I have about 50ml of olive oil a day off season.


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## Goose (Jan 29, 2009)

Tinytom said:


> I do 40 minutes before breakfast and 40 minutes PWO in the evening mate.
> 
> What fats are you using? I noticed that olive oil made me leaner without any cardio or drop in calories when I was off season.
> 
> I have about 50ml of olive oil a day off season.


Is the cardio at a 65% HR?

Currently using Extra virgin Olive oil at 30ml a day.

Mainly fats come from Olive oil, whole eggs and oily fish.


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## Tinytom (Sep 16, 2005)

Goose said:


> Is the cardio at a 65% HR?
> 
> Currently using Extra virgin Olive oil at 30ml a day.
> 
> Mainly fats come from Olive oil, whole eggs and oily fish.


I dont really go by HR as I use effy before a Workout so that will elevate it.

TBH Ive found that doing cardio at a snails pace has little impact on me, so I prefer a more intense workout in the morning and some fast walking PWO


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## rs007 (May 28, 2007)

Holy smoke Tom, absolutely outstanding! What a physique. If I can get half as good as that one day, I'll be delighted.

88kg = 194lb, give or take.

194 x 1.8 = guess?

Almost exactly 350, in fact on of the closest matches yet, and you say if anything when yuo are offseason you eat more.

Another physique on the list, although I think I might need to remove con, he seems confused over his protein intake, quoting 300 to 350 (big day to day swing there) then goes on to say he actually eats more since he eats that clean... so not sure about con 

but then, I dont think any of us are sure about con :lol:

*Bodybuilders proving the 1.8g of prot per lean lb maintenance:*

Zara

Me

Weeman

Hamster *probably*

Makaveli *probably*

TinyTom

*Bodybuilders taking MORE than 1.8g per lean lb:*

zeus87529

*Bodybuilders taking LESS than 1.8g per lean lb:*

none yet

*Bodybuilders who are not sure *  *:*

con

I can do this all day - have done this all day in the past - the glaring and irrefutable trend that will form is that for a shredded bodybuilder, the trend line will send back bodywieght in lb x 1.8 just happens to be around about the protein they are taking in to maintain... yes there are other factors that could, should change things, but that is specifically why I see end of diet shredded bodybuilders as the only way to reliably illustrate anything reliably - fat and a lot of subc water, as well as excess stomach content, is taken right out of the equation. Its about as close as we will ever get to knowing our true muscular wieght.

IMO


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## Goose (Jan 29, 2009)

Maybe my protein intake is too low? At 225lbs I should be consuming 405grams of protein right? Im only hitting 350grams?


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## pastanchicken (Sep 29, 2008)

Tom, that picture is awesome mate :thumbup1:


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## GHS (Oct 6, 2008)

I'm hitting roughly what Goose is (350g) at 250lbs.......

I think I may up the protein dose???


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## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

Pic pre torn arm (when had nicer golden tan:thumbup1

Around 238lb

5'10" and was eating 300g plus a day protein, at time most came in form of shakes and potein bars as have sh1t Appetite like Ramsey Street..

Hardly ate any carbs TBH, few slices toast and few sarnies was about it..

So High protein, low carb and not much fat (only recent added eggs)

was strong as fck too

Prob aroun 10% Body fat or prob lower as I am awesome....


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## rs007 (May 28, 2007)

Goose said:


> Maybe my protein intake is too low? At 225lbs I should be consuming 405grams of protein right? Im only hitting 350grams?


1.8 is for maintenance and applied to your shredded wieght - however by applying it to your non shredded wieght, perhaps this is the ideal way to provide a margin for growth, assuming of course you arent obese 

I gun for 400 when I am going for it.


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## Goose (Jan 29, 2009)

GHS said:


> I'm hitting roughly what Goose is (350g) at 250lbs.......
> 
> I think I may up the protein dose???


Thats because your diet is of awesomeness!! 



RS2007 said:


> 1.8 is for maintenance and applied to your shredded wieght - however by applying it to your non shredded wieght, perhaps this is the ideal way to provide a margin for growth, assuming of course you arent obese
> 
> I gun for 400 when I am going for it.


I wouldn't say I was obese but im carrying more bodyfat than I would like!


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## Tinytom (Sep 16, 2005)

I think you should also think about the types of protein you consume

I use 15g of BCAA and 15g of Glutamine a day which is 30g of protein from a base source.

I use 5g before each workout and 5g after weights.

Leucine (BCAA) has been shown to be directly involved in anabolic activation PWO and the benefits of glutamine are well known.

Off season I also have a handful of amino acids with each meal. So thats another 35g or so of base proteins a day which would mean on a training day I could be taking in nearly 70g of protein from base sources.

Makes a difference.


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## hilly (Jan 19, 2008)

Tom, do you have any bcaa or l glutamine before your am cardio?


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## Prodiver (Nov 14, 2008)

RS2007 said:


> 1.8 is for maintenance and applied to your shredded wieght - however by applying it to your non shredded wieght, perhaps this is the ideal way to provide a margin for growth, assuming of course you arent obese
> 
> I gun for 400 when I am going for it.


Really interesting, Ramsay! :thumb:

So, minimum 1.8 gms protein per day per pound lean bodyweight for *maintenance*.

Tom adds maybe 70 gms a day more for growth - if I've got him right - which seems reasonable.

Do you concur - or any other thoughts on amounts for *growth*?


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## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

Tinytom said:


> You asked for my input
> 
> Pic below is a recent pic where I am on 350g protein, 110g carbs and 120g fats at 88kg.
> 
> ...


Is that your "New Boy" you ordered from thailand in background TT???

Hes nice


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## Goose (Jan 29, 2009)

Yeah true Tom that does add up!

I'm getting most of my protein from whole foods. My diet can be found here:

http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/shows-pros-inspiration/53470-gooses-off-season-journal.html

I don't particularly want to cut calories from carbs as it could hinder my growth but im sure I should be able to maintain a lean body mass offseason without doing the cardio.


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## Prodiver (Nov 14, 2008)

Tinytom said:


> 500mg Testex
> 
> 200mg Tren Hex
> 
> ...


Thanks Tom. :thumb:

What do/would you take now for max growth?


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## Tinytom (Sep 16, 2005)

Hamier - Yes like I said before EVERY workout.

Pro Diver - TBH I dont go massive on gear even in off season I think my last course was 1g Test Enth, 400mg NPP and some Dbol.

I tend to get a better result by changing around my peptides like MGF, IGF, GH amd slin. By altering the timings of these compounds I managed to gain a good amount over the Xmas/Jan period.

JW - He's too old, anything over 12 is just damaged goods.


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## Guest (Mar 23, 2009)

RS2007 said:


> but then, I dont think any of us are sure about con :lol:


Pardon:confused1: like i stated on my low carb days its 350p on medium days it 300p, off season i dont specifically count protein because purely by eating the foods that i do i am more than covered. I also add in aminos with my meals i am very big into suppluments.

I think this topic is a joke tbh genetic differences will make this topic obsolete long before one looks at any other factors.

Also for those eating a calorie rich diet with only 200 grams protein wtf are you actually eating, straight bread and jam is it?!

Also GHS with the amount of **** you put into your body you should be consuming massive amounts of quality food which would very quickly add up to 400-500 grams of protein. Its really not that hard nearly every thing has protein you just have to make sure you have all the aminos needed to make it a complete protein and look and behold thats what amino acid suppluments are for FFS!


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## Goose (Jan 29, 2009)

Do you think amino acid supps are vital for diet? I havn't included these in mine..

Hmm...


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## pecman (May 11, 2008)

Well i'm hitting nowhere near 300g protein a day, i never have really apart from my show prep. I have a very tiny appertite and have to consume most of mine through shakes.

But i'm not moaning i'm holding at 17st 5 at about 18% bf and a shat diet.

Shouldn't really admit this on here but ho hum. sorting it out now for summer, should be able to hit 18 st quite easy, And i'm dead serious i eat fook all really. And started at 11st

* go's and buries his head in shame,, be gentle


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## rs007 (May 28, 2007)

Con said:


> Pardon:confused1:


It really not that difficult con, it was a joke, remember those? Things people say, not quite meaning them, just for a wee giggle or a windup? generally accompanied by -> :lol: or similar?



Con said:


> like i stated on my low carb days its 350p on medium days it 300p, off season i dont specifically count protein because purely by eating the foods that i do i am more than covered. I also add in aminos with my meals i am very big into suppluments.


So, why would you swing your protein either way by 50g, fairly big amount, just because your carbs are swinging? Whats the point of a low carb day, if your body isnt registering somethings lower because you are attempting to substitute? There is enough reason and logic behind assuming protein requirements are fairly stable for a trainer following a consisitent routine? I like what you raise (and TTom too I believe) about using aminos, fills in the gaps in the protein which might otherwise be incomplete. I dont, because I am constantly supping whey all day anyway - assumign that will fill gaps in my AA requirements, but maybe somethign I look at.

Logically, someone can get by on less protein (although there will still be a minimum) if it is all complete, as opposed to someone who eats 500g might only be having to do so to get enough quantity to make maybe 300 (say) complete and usable... priotein efficiency must be a factor...



Con said:


> I think this topic is a joke tbh genetic differences will make this topic obsolete long before one looks at any other factors.


Hey well thats your opinion, good on ya - but should we stop discussing it becasue you think its a joke? Im sure many greater men have thought other subjects jokes, which later became very relevant...  <- that was a joke again there mate :lol:



Con said:


> Also for those eating a calorie rich diet with only 200 grams protein wtf are you actually eating, straight bread and jam is it?!!


Very good point:thumbup1:

I do love my bread and jam, dont forget the pb now though :lol:


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## GHS (Oct 6, 2008)

RS2007 said:


> *1.8 is for maintenance* and applied to your *shredded wieght* - however by applying it to your non shredded wieght, perhaps this is the *ideal way to provide a margin for growth*, assuming of course you arent obese
> 
> I gun for 400 when I am going for it.


 So if I'm 250lbs now at roughly 14% BF what would my rough shredded weight be? 210 maybe?

So I'd need 1.8 x 210 = 378g to maintain muscle

and for growth I'd need

1.8 x 250 = 450g

Is that correct?

GHS


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## LittleChris (Jan 17, 2009)

Would be surprised if you had a stage weight of 210 to be honest GHS.


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## Goose (Jan 29, 2009)

yeah how did you come up with the idea you would be shredded at 210lbs? To truly know you would have to get shredded.. I wouldn't have a clue.. I'd probably lose a good 3 stone.


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## GHS (Oct 6, 2008)

LittleChris said:


> Would be surprised if you had a stage weight of 210 to be honest GHS.


 Thats why I put a question mark and asked maybe..........?

What you you suggest then Chris?

GHS


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## GHS (Oct 6, 2008)

Goose said:


> yeah how did you come up with the idea you would be shredded at 210lbs? To truly know you would have to get shredded.. I wouldn't have a clue.. *I'd probably lose a good 3 stone*.


 3 stone = 42lbs

I'm 250 currently so if I lost 42lbs I'd be 208lbs on stage.....

Doesn't sound far off from what you suggested mate?

But I agree I won't know until I do it. Nobody can possibly say.

GHS


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## Prodiver (Nov 14, 2008)

RS2007 said:


> ...
> 
> I do love my bread and jam... :lol:


Oooh! seems we both like a nice piece, Ramsay... :laugh:


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## LittleChris (Jan 17, 2009)

Water from all the AAS as well. No idea what you would weight to be honest, would wager around 185-190 or thereabouts.


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## rs007 (May 28, 2007)

LittleChris said:


> Would be surprised if you had a stage weight of 210 to be honest GHS.


Remember though GHS is a tall bugger, lot of mass on that frame although maybe not as immediatley apparent as if he had that same mass, but was only 5ft 8...

GHS, very very hard to guesstimate, but you wont be a mile off, unless you lost a lot of muscle on your diet - a lot of peopel get a bit of lean tissue gain jsut due to teh better eating and discipline...

Either way, people will disagree with me, but if I were you, with your frame size and the apparent mass you are holding, I'd be on minimum 400g quality protein a day plus the necessary carbs, just my $0.02. Unfortunately it gets even more expensive for you tall guys, you have to eat more and build more, just to be proportianately the same as someone with less height...

But when you do get massive, you will be a beast, so its all good :thumbup1:


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## rs007 (May 28, 2007)

Goose said:


> Do you think amino acid supps are vital for diet? I havn't included these in mine..
> 
> Hmm...


Only essential if the core of your intake is "incomplete" protein - anyone got amino acid assays for all the usual foods - chicken, beef, turkey etc? Would love to see and compare.

But of course this is open ended info - does anyone have the amino acid profile of human muscle? That is, after all, what we want to build isnt it :thumb:

That way we could identify the gaps and it would be clear to each individual what they need to fill-in in their own diet.

I massive percentage of my protein intake is whey, which I am perhaps incorrectly assuming to be complete and in accordance with human meat?


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## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

RS2007 said:


> It really not that difficult con, it was a joke, remember those? Things people say, not quite meaning them, just for a wee giggle or a windup? generally accompanied by -> :lol: or similar?
> 
> So, why would you swing your protein either way by 50g, fairly big amount, just because your carbs are swinging? Whats the point of a low carb day, if your body isnt registering somethings lower because you are attempting to substitute? There is enough reason and logic behind assuming protein requirements are fairly stable for a trainer following a consisitent routine? I like what you raise (and TTom too I believe) about using aminos, fills in the gaps in the protein which might otherwise be incomplete. I dont, because I am constantly supping whey all day anyway - assumign that will fill gaps in my AA requirements, but maybe somethign I look at.
> 
> ...


That post did make me chucke:lol: :lol: :lol:


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## rs007 (May 28, 2007)

jw007 said:


> That post did make me chucke:lol: :lol: :lol:


Meant to say big fella, I'll get that photo you requested as soon as I can find a pair of nazi SS jackboots and a cucumber, might be a while, but you know Im good bro :lol:


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## pastanchicken (Sep 29, 2008)

RS2007 said:


> Meant to say big fella, I'll get that photo you requested as soon as I can find a pair of nazi SS jackboots and a cucumber, might be a while, but you know Im good bro :lol:


Can I get a copy too? Cheers :drool:


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## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

RS2007 said:


> Meant to say big fella, I'll get that photo you requested as soon as I can find a pair of nazi SS jackboots and a cucumber, might be a while, but you know Im good bro :lol:


No worries Little man....

You have remebered the WW2 gas mask???????

Useless without it mate:thumbup1:


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