# Molecular Nutrition XFactor



## XPS (Aug 23, 2006)

http://www.molecularnutrition.net/products_xfactor.html

anyone heard or used this?

any feedback or alternatives? Looking at at adding on some lean muscle (i know what everyone wants :bounce: )


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

i think Tom has looked into this stuff


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## fits (Feb 3, 2004)

Is this a Pro hormone?


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## NeilpWest (Aug 19, 2007)

I have emailed stockists and people that have used xfactor before as i didnt believe what they claim. From what i was told its pretty good if you use it for the 50days or whatever it is they told me they gained about 10lbs or more but its not exactly cheap so i didnt bother trying it.


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## fits (Feb 3, 2004)

NeilpWest said:


> I have emailed stockists and people that have used xfactor before as i didnt believe what they claim. From what i was told its pretty good if you use it for the 50days or whatever it is they told me they gained about 10lbs or more but its not exactly cheap so i didnt bother trying it.


 any feedbackl about shut down? sides?


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## NeilpWest (Aug 19, 2007)

Yep. No shut down and no sides occured. A few guys i know use it with pct to help keep and add gains while there test is low apparently they have had good results using it this way.


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## fits (Feb 3, 2004)

just read up on it. Its been about since 2005. If it was that amazing i guess we would have heard more about it? so are you going to give it a go?


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## NeilpWest (Aug 19, 2007)

Yeah it has been around for a while now. Ill prob give it ago in the future as well as trying m1t no doubt but atm i cant afford £50 ago or whatever the xfactor is per pot.


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## XPS (Aug 23, 2006)

im not sure, i was also looking at Anabolic Xtreme Hyperdrol X2 and stacking it with Anabolic Xtreme Mass FX.

thoughts? or alternatives? M1T i dont want bitch tits !


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## Truewarrior1 (Jan 27, 2005)

yeah the problem with it is you're going to feel tired all the time,yes you'll have better pumps,but u'll also have a lot bigger and longer doms.you're also not allowed to take fish oils with it. i read a lot about it over my time on bodybuilding.com


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Time out guys, this stuff is not any good for you and yes there are sides.

Main component in X-Factor is arachidonic acid (AA).

AA is a inflammatory prostaglandin, it will increase inflammation in the body.

Fish oils decrease inflammation in the body.

Sure you need some infammmatory responce for muscle growth, fend off colds and the like, but adding it into ones diet when one's diet is already too high in AA is psycho.

Higher AA gets yoiu lower HDL to LDL ratio and less test.

Also leads to over clotting, this is not good.

Also ruins the insulin to GH ratio.

What we want here is less AA not more.

A test called the Silent Inflammation Profile (SIP) is new and checks the ratio of Omega 3 to AA.

Fish oils lower AA, which is what we want, also brings us more insulin sensitivity, again this is what we want.

In the presence of AA and excess insulin this is truely a health threatening thing.

I had a debate about this crap on a board where it was sponcered by William (dude that made it), I ripped into them defending their positions on this so bad, not william himself defended his product.

I should find that post.

From Chefx:

Arachidonic acid - This particular polyunsaturaed fat may be the most dangerous fat know when consumed in excess and is known as an Omega 6 fat. In fact, you can inject virtually every type of fat (even saturated fat and cholesterol) into rabbits and nothing happens. However, if you inject (AA) arachidonic acid into the same rabbits they are dead within three minutes. The human body needs "some" arachidonic acid, but too much can be toxic.

Getting alot of AA in the body will upset the ballance of Omega 3 to Omega 6 fatty acids in the body.

Which by the way is already out of ballance from the 1/1 to 1/4 ratio of 3 to 6.

If the typical American diet is 1/10 to 1/25 3 to 6 why in the hell would anyone further the ratio to compromise good health?

All that and it is expensive.

I can think of funner things to take that I can spend my money on for poor health that X-Factor


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## NeilpWest (Aug 19, 2007)

hackskii said:


> Time out guys, this stuff is not any good for you and yes there are sides.
> 
> Main component in X-Factor is arachidonic acid (AA).
> 
> ...


Hi hacks

Just so you know i didnt say there are no sides from what i know only what i was told by the people that used it.


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## thestudbeast (Jul 20, 2007)

hackskii said:


> Time out guys, this stuff is not any good for you and yes there are sides.
> 
> Main component in X-Factor is arachidonic acid (AA).
> 
> ...


O.k first up what sources of AA are there:

Liver

Egg yolks

Red meat

Refined oils - so any fatty junk food is loaded with it.

factory farmed fish

If you diet is low in the top 3 it will be benifited by adding some, if your diet has any of the bottem two in drop them out and replace with the top 3.

The typical American diet is not the typical diet followed on this board, still when you realize how much AA is in one egg yolk you will see how X-Factor is a rip off. Currently molecular do not recomend dropping fish oils but limiting them to 3g a day (which is sensible anyway in supplement form).

I'd say eat eggs yolks, liver and oily fish to help balance it out and not bother with the supplement............ well thats what I did.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

No diet is low in arachidonic acid, there is an abundance.

Most cultures have too many Omega 6's and not enough 3's.

Americans are not the exception here for excess arachidonic acid, the UK is very close to the Americans on AA.

I have gone to some pretty great lengths on this subject and only the japaneese are ok in the ratio of 3 to 6, eskimos too.

What cracks me up is this.

Corn oil is very high in arachidonic acid, why not just chug some of that? 

For the record 3g of fish oils would be the absolute minimum, I take 12 a day and for good reason, this improves the ratio of 3 to 6 in my diet.

Inflammation hinders recovery not promotes it.


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## thestudbeast (Jul 20, 2007)

hackskii said:


> No diet is low in arachidonic acid, there is an abundance.
> 
> Most cultures have too many Omega 6's and not enough 3's.
> 
> ...


What makes me think there's a difference between the AA found in refined oils and that found in liver?

The typical bodybuiling diet of ultra low fat, high protein, high carb will be low in AA and many other fatty acids. Still most on this diet then supplement with fish oils and then think there O.K.

Most non training individuals have to much AA, while as above some that train have too little. Deneying that AA is part of the muscle builing process is plain wrong but after questioning many that have used it, it is my humble opinion that the £50 would be better spent on diet improvements.


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## XPS (Aug 23, 2006)

XPS said:


> im not sure, i was also looking at Anabolic Xtreme Hyperdrol X2 and stacking it with Anabolic Xtreme Mass FX.
> 
> thoughts? or alternatives? M1T i dont want bitch tits !


Interesting read so far guys I will leave Molecular Nutrition XFactor.

What about Anabolic Xtreme Hyperdrol X2 and stacking it with Anabolic Xtreme Mass FX? I have heard of M1T's but heard they give you bitch tits???


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## thestudbeast (Jul 20, 2007)

What about Anabolic Xtreme Hyperdrol X2? I've read it's effect comes from the ingrediant listed containing a pro hormone (patrick arnolds opinion I think) even though they claim it is'nt.

The only people claiming the active ingrediant in mass FX boosts test is the makers. It has stinging neetle extract in there which is good but the 25-diol thing your left to make up your own mind on.

Still I'm sure you can find some people that have used it to ask on the US forums.

For the pro hormone route I hear epistane seems to be rated well and on the non hormonal side either Diesel Test or Activate xtreme are good test boosters (used both), for what thats worth


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

thestudbeast said:


> What makes me think there's a difference between the AA found in refined oils and that found in liver?
> 
> The typical bodybuiling diet of ultra low fat, high protein, high carb will be low in AA and many other fatty acids. Still most on this diet then supplement with fish oils and then think there O.K.
> 
> Most non training individuals have to much AA, while as above some that train have too little. Deneying that AA is part of the muscle builing process is plain wrong but after questioning many that have used it, it is my humble opinion that the £50 would be better spent on diet improvements.


I was not denying that AA isnt used in muscle building process, that was never my arguement from a responce from resistance training elivates inflammation that is helpful in what it does.

Inflammation if excessive is counterproductive in recovery.

No offence mate, I do honor your words of wisdom but not all bodybuilders are on a low fat diet.

In fact low fat diets are not even healthy.

Not to mention the body is pretty efficient in making fat as much as it needs with the exception of EFA's.

That and the amount of meats we eat elivate AA in the body. I would bet money that the typical bodybuilder has too high of AA in the body.

Excess AA in the body is dangerous and produces zero health benefits.

Thanks Chefx.

Arachidonic acid - This particular polyunsaturaed fat may be the most dangerous fat know when consumed in excess and is known as an Omega 6 fat. In fact, you can inject virtually every type of fat (even saturated fat and cholesterol) into rabbits and nothing happens. However, if you inject (AA) arachidonic acid into the same rabbits they are dead within three minutes. The human body needs "some" arachidonic acid, but too much can be toxic.

Ironically, the higher your insulin levels, the more your body is stimulated to make increased levels of arachidonic acid. (AA) is a long-chain omega-6 fatty acid. Enchaned production of good eicosanoids requires the presence of EPA and DHA long chain "omega 3" fats, found in fish oil.

Snip from Dr. Sears:

DGLA is the building block of many of the "good" eicosanoids, whereas AA is the building block of "bad" eicosanoids. Thus excess amounts of AA can be one of your worst hormonal nightmares. Ultimately, it is the balance between DGLA and AA in every one of your 60 trillion cells that determines which types of eicosanoids you will produce. You need some AA to produce some "bad" eicosanoids, but in the case of excess production of AA, the balance of eicosanoids will shift toward accelerated aging and chronic disease.

Some of the Eicosanoids Derived from Arachidonic Acid

Arachidonic Acid (AA)

COX 5-LOX 12 and 15 LOX

PGH2 TXA2 LTB4 12-HETE Lipoxin

PGD2 PGI2

LTBC4 15-HETE

PGJ2 PGF2a PGE2

PGB2 LTBD4

PGA2

LTBE4

Many of these eicosanoids derived from arachidonic acid can be considered to be "bad" because they promote inflammation (PGE2 and LTB4) and decrease blood flow (TXA2). In addition, the inflammatory "bad" eicosanoids can also promote the release of other pro-inflammatory cytokines.

While there is bewildering complexity of eicosanoids from ararchidonic acid, there are a very limited number of eicosanoids that come from dihomo gamma linolenic acid (DGLA) as shown below

*Taken from the Zone...interesting read.*

In the Zone Diet, he explained the role of excess insulin in stimulating the production of too much arachidonic acid. In the Omega Rx Zone he expands considerably on this theme:

All carbohydrates, even complex carbohydrates, stimulate insulin release;

Insulin activates delta-5-desaturase, the enzyme that turns omega-6 fatty acids into arachidonic acid instead of into good eicosanoids;

Lower levels of good eicosanoids mean less oxygen delivery to cells and more inflammation;

More inflammation means more diseases such as multiple sclerosis, strokes, fibromyalgia, Alzheimer's, arthritis, eczema and so on.

Other harmful effects of insulin are:

Insulin activates the critical enzyme responsible for making cholesterol in your liver;

Insulin encourages your metabolism to turn your calories into fat;

Insulin lowers your blood sugar and makes you crave carbohydrates;

Insulin has to be counteracted by the production of more glucagon and more cortisol, thus stressing your pancreas and adrenals;

Cortisol is released to counteract insulin but kills brain cells, especially in the hippocampus, which is your memory centre.

One of the best indicators that you are making too much insulin is that you have excess body fat around your middle. As Sears says "The hormonal consequences of a calorie of protein are different from those of a calorie of carbohydrate, which are different still from those of a calorie of fat. My dietary recommendations are based on hormonal thinking, whereas the USDA Food Pyramid&#8230; and many other medically endorsed diets are based on caloric thinking."

Sears offers several techniques for insulin control.

Eat only the smallest amounts of those carbohydrates which raise your blood sugar quickly (see the book for more details);

Always balance carbohydrates with protein;

Always include fats in your meal, especially monounsaturated fat from olive oil;

Eat small, frequent meals;

Eat the vast majority of your carbohydrate in the form of vegetables - in fact 10-15 portions a day.

In the Omega Rx Zone Sears has a new, additional technique up his sleeve. Omega refers to omega 3 fats, which are those found in fish oil. Rx is shorthand for 'recipe'. Sears has always known that the oils from oily fish are rich in eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA), which has two important benefits:

It can be directly made into good eicosanoids;

It inhibits the delta-5-desaturase enzyme that turns other oils into arachidonic acid;

The net effect is to significantly increase good eicosanoids and decrease bad ones.

Unfortunately research shows that fish oil supplements have only limited value in achieving these benefits. Sears has spent some years investigating the reasons for this. He now believes that excessive carbohydrate consumption (and consequent poor insulin control) has been responsible for partially counteracting the beneficial effects of fish oil supplements. He also believes that the products themselves have been less than perfect.

"Crude fish oil and cod liver oil should be considered the sewer of the sea," says Sears. "Anything that is water-insoluble, such as PCBs, DDT and organic mercury compounds will be found in the crude oil." He recommends only using products whose level of PCBs is guaranteed to be less than 10 parts per billion (ppb). And, he says, some products contain oils extracted from krill or tropical fish. These are relatively rich in arachidonic acid, which will definitely undo the benefits of consuming the oil.

Sears rejects health-food-grade fish oil in favour of a highly purified fish oil which he calls 'pharmaceutical grade'. He claims that it takes 100 gallons of health-food-grade fish oil to make one gallon of pharmaceutical-grade fish oil. So far, the results he reports from testing the highly purified product look impressive. The book contains some really interesting case reports, including a rapid reversal of an advanced case of Alzheimer's dementia.

Insulin activates delta-5-desaturase, the enzyme that turns omega-6 fatty acids into arachidonic acid instead of into good eicosanoids

As you can see above I seriously doubt bodybuilders are defficient in AA, when the body can produce it if need be. But why, we already get tons of it in our diets, too much actually.


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## thestudbeast (Jul 20, 2007)

No offence taken, I learn a lot when we discuss things.

The thing is in my first post I said if your missing, egg yolks, liver, red meat and avoid refined oils other junk food you could end up too low in it, not that everyone will be, but quite a few following the low fat route which is still so popular. Having said this your body can produce it from other fatty acids so I can't be 100% sure you could go too low.

What sources do you think the typical bodybuilder gets his AA from? Red meat is low in AA (but contains it), only liver and egg yolks are high enough to match moleculars recomendations unless you resort to refined oils and then your out of the usual bodybuiling diet............ I hope!

Factory farmed fish being the odd one out - probably feed refined oils in there food.

As for the info on insulin, it just goes to show what a bad combo refined oils and sugar is but hopefully most bodybuilders diets will consist of low GI carbs and be low in damaged omega 6 fatty acids (unless I'm deluded on what people really eat!).

As for Chefx's comment, I've seen this arguement given before, problem is many things are toxic taken in excess and benificial in the right amounts. Paracetamol?

So hold on whats my point? I think we both agree that refined and processed oils and fats are a no no. I've learn't new horrors of spiking insulin (good job I limit carbs) but I still think not throwing away your egg yolks and adding in liver into the diet can be benificial and jmo of course healthy.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

AA is found in animal tissues, especially fish, eggs, liver, and brain.

But I dont know if your meat is like ours as Corn products are used as the prominent foodstuff in westernized livestock. Red meat, dairy, and pork products have a high AA content.

Again this might not apply to you guys in the UK, and to make matters worse our cattle are not range grazing animals, so the benefits of Omega 3's are lost.

Again, I love your posts bro, I find them insightful and stimulating, you got a good mind on your shoulders, I can see this.


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## Truewarrior1 (Jan 27, 2005)

scott just posted all the stuff i knew but couldn't be bothered too


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## XPS (Aug 23, 2006)

XPS said:


> What about Anabolic Xtreme Hyperdrol X2 and stacking it with Anabolic Xtreme Mass FX??


any thoughts on these?


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## bigboy (Oct 31, 2007)

Jungle Warefare by ALRI is supposed to be similar to X Factor isnt it?? know some people who have tried both and prefer Jungle Warefare.


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## thestudbeast (Jul 20, 2007)

hackskii said:


> AA is found in animal tissues, especially fish, eggs, liver, and brain.
> 
> But I dont know if your meat is like ours as Corn products are used as the prominent foodstuff in westernized livestock. Red meat, dairy, and pork products have a high AA content.
> 
> ...


I see your point on what there feed, it makes sense as it happens with farmed fish. In the UK we really have a choice of meats to choose from. I normaly go with Argentinian beef and New Zealand lamb which are both free range, other wise it's pot luck. Most cattle in the UK will graze in the summer and be fed on silage in the winter. I have no real faith in UK meat but it's still a million times better than the hormone induced crap available in the US.

On a simmilar point the whey protein that adonis replaced was New Zealand whey and so from grass fed cows............ but it mixed poorly and so was dropped, myprotein did the same, shame.

Jungle warefare, the active ingrediant is a metabolite of ATD, they say it isn't androgenic and won't have the negative sides of ATD and still give a nice boost on your testosterone and lower oestrogen. Still if you search enough on anabolic minds you'll come across folks that have had blood tests done when on it. Guess what........... seems like it's suppresive after all. The supp industry is dying for an anabolic that does not shut you down, unfortunatly IMHO there is'nt one out yet.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Well, that is the thing about the testosterone boosters, they might work for a while but not for very long.

I just read a huge article on low test levels and many men actually suffer from too much estrogen.

Im not saying to use an AI to lower testosterone and lower SHBG to bring about more free test, what I am saying is diet and lifestyle play huge rolls in test production.

For instance.

Bellyfat = more aromatase activity = more estrogen = less total testosterone and less free testosterone.

Eating less or removing bellyfat would solve this problem, again diet and lifestyle controlled.

Or alcohol will spike estrogen which in turn will lower testostereron temporarily.

Or, many of the over the counter drugs put a strain on the liver and this has the ability for the liver to not be able to remove estrogen from the body, hence elivating estrogen levels.

Sunlight for instance?

Summer months where we are in the sun, tend to be more pregnancys and elivated testosterone levels.

I think it was 128% for sun on the back and chest area was the boost in test levels.

Or deffiencies in zinc can lower testosterone levels (zinc is needed for test production and is a mild aromatase inhibitor).

Or low fat diets and low cholesterol diets can lower test production.

So, I really dont think it is a question of buying a product that will boost levels, it really is a diet and lifestyle where one can maximize ones own hormones, lowering estrogen (if it is high), elivating total testosterone and getting more free testosterone.

This benefits accross the board for health, fat loss, muscle gain, mental health, heart health (heart has the most androgen receptors in the body of any muscle), libido, etc.

Sadly the doctors treat symptoms and not causes, only a few actually know how to elivate naturally test levels, most have not been taught.

Let me give you a brief danger of low test levels and how serious it is.

For a man that has low testosterone levels and has erectile disfunction he has a 20 year life expectancy..........WOW..........Not good, and the quailty of that 20 years will degrade even further.

In fact low test levels are partially responsible for prostate issues.


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## thestudbeast (Jul 20, 2007)

The best herbal test boosters available today work for about 28-35 days. It's not long enough to make noticable gains but can help out with libido and sexual health issues (and keep sex drive up during PCT). Totally agree though diet and lifestyle play much more of a role than any supp in test levels.


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## Guest (Nov 29, 2007)

Meh......i got the same thing from gaspari called halodrols the new ones.

Did i notice any thing?Perhaps my side of my stomach hurt a bit perhaps it was due to this perhaps not i got bored after a couple of weeks and it went in my drawer of supplument rejects:rolleyes:


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## ah24 (Jun 25, 2006)

Haven't read the whole post except one of Hack's post's about the AA...

Article from MD this month;


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## ah24 (Jun 25, 2006)

*Anything ground-breaking in there?*


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## Tinytom (Sep 16, 2005)

I used this a year ago.

Most of the scare stories regarding the negative impact are not founded. They are OK in theory but there's been separate studies shown that the highest dose does not negatively impact the body in the short term while using.

I had my cholesterol and bloods checked after I used it (before I did a gear cycle) and there was no causes for concern.

As for results. I did get the sorenss in the muscles and I did see some improvement but not masses. I think if you combined this with IGF then you'd get a much better result as AA increases the IGF sensitivity (apparently)

Overall I had a moderate response.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

I love it, he says "while a nutritionist may discourage the use of supplemental AA due to its lose association with low-grade cardiovascular inflammation."

Oh, I guess there acceptable levels of cardiovascular inflammation?

Give me a break, fish oils offer the lower levels of cardiovascular inflammation which helps longevity.

This dude is pushing poison.

No proof that it actually does anything besides cause inflammation. Gotta hand it to him, very cleverly packaged marketing hype.

Spend some money to potentially compromise health, and if a couple of tabs work good, how about a handful?

Typical thinking actually.

I read a while ago that they suggested taking a tab of fish oils with it a day. That really sounds like they are covering their ass on that one.

Dude even says this: "come to appreciate post exercise soreness; it's a great indicator of muscle growth."&#8230;&#8230;..Huh? How much? How often?

What a friggen joke.

I will leave you with this Editor's note: Does arachidonic acid (AA) increase muscle mass?

At this point, we do not know, as there have been no long term studies conducted in reference to this.

Studies to date show AA may increase peak power without significantly affecting body composition, performance are markers for muscle hypertrophy.

Funny thing, they admit that there is no evidence, but there is plenty of evidence that AA increases inflammation and guys seriously this is one thing us weight lifters need to avoid.

Sure anti-inflammatory products do hinder muscle growth, but suggesting that you have more inflammation is better for muscle growth is very reaching.

Many if not most people have problems with excess inflammation and insulin.

Also there is only evidence that endurance athletes have low levels of AA and they didn't even suggest how long this is for.

Nothing on resistance training, but they infer otherwise, which is a form of deception.


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## Tinytom (Sep 16, 2005)

I read an article about a month ago that featured a study that seemed to show that reducing inflammation by using such things as Fish Oils and Ibuprofen actually hindered muscle growth.

Obviously in any of these theoretical debates there is a tolerance line.

I think if you took this product for an extended time you would see bad effects but then it does say on the tub to take a break.

Same with gear, you wouldnt stay on indefinately (well most anyway)


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Yah, I am totally aware that anti-inflammatory drugs hinder muscle growth, and to some extent fish oils can do this.

After all they are the strongest anti-inflammatory food staple of anything.

But remember you need some anti-inflammatory stuff in your diet anyway for heart health, the DHA in fish oils help brain function, fat loss, the EPA lowers triglycerides, promotes good heart health, and a host of many things.

Looking at it primarily from a muscle loss perspective only is seriously short cutting the long term of things.

Again, you want more AA in your diet, have some corn oil, that stuff is totally loaded with AA and probaly pennies compared to X-factor, would not doubt it if it was stronger too.

But you cant patent corn oil now can you?

Cant make any money selling that to the public.

Oh, you dont have to cycle fish oils either, they are good to go for life.


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## fits (Feb 3, 2004)

well I cant use this stuff any way as i suffer with gout!!! but for results i dount its worth risking, or paying for.


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## w_llewellyn (Dec 28, 2007)

hackskii said:


> This dude is pushing poison.


While I appreciate the depth of conversation here, I must respectfully disagree with the accusation that I am "Pushing Poison". Indeed, arachidonic acid offers no value to a sedentary population, which commonly suffers from metabolic syndrome or low-grade systemic inflammation. In fact, it can be used here by the body to increase the inflammatory response. This is something an inactive sedentary person has no need or desire for.

On the other hand, one cannot forget that AA is vital to the muscle building process. Furthermore, regular exercise depletes AA stores in muscle tissue. So the statement that people eat plenty is not entirely true. Regular sedentary people in Western nations usually eat enough AA, but bodybuilders are often deficient due to heavy training. This means that with less available AA, training adaptations are harder to produce, and results slow or stagnate.

I think you need to look at the Baylor study and the effect AA + training had on IL-6, a central regulator of inflammation, before jumping to any conclusions. Resting levels of IL-6 were actually decreased in the supplemented group, not increased. We believe this is caused by AA improving insulin sensitivity in skeletal muscle (by improving the localized training response), which in turn helps better control insulin. This in turn is linked to lower, not higher, systemic inflammation.

Furthermore, one cannot exclude the large volume of safety data on the use of AA. Over and over again, the supplementation of 1.5grams per day or less has been shown to have absolutely no effect on any relevant marker of health. In doses up to 2grams per day (give or take based on weight) the U.S. FDA has even granted Generally Recognized As Safe (GRAS) status on AA. No other serious muscle-building supplement, not even creatine, has ever been granted such safety approval.


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## w_llewellyn (Dec 28, 2007)

hackskii said:


> Again, you want more AA in your diet, have some corn oil, that stuff is totally loaded with AA and probaly pennies compared to X-factor, would not doubt it if it was stronger too.


Also, I take exception to the accusation that I am a profiteer, selling only marketing hype for the sake of raking in profits. X-Factor is the result of YEARS worth of hard work, experimentation, and dedication to a very new technology our industry has not known before. It took a long time to get where we are with AA; a long uphill road that we fought because we believed in what we were doing - progressing the science of bodybuilding.. Not to make money.. There are plenty of cheap crap supplements we could have sold if that were the case..

You are also incorrect, in that if you truly found a novel and effective new use for corn oil, you could patent that use. I, however, was not after selling empty promises and marketing hype on something like corn oil, as you so politely have accused me of. I think my time in this industry, my work, and my reputation should speak for itself.. but I guess not around here.


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## w_llewellyn (Dec 28, 2007)

*Generally Recognized as Safe (GRAS)*

Generally Recognized as Safe (GRAS) is a United States of America Food and Drug Administration (FDA) designation that a chemical or substance added to food is considered safe by experts, and so is exempted from the usual Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act (FFDCA) food additive tolerance requirements.

GRAS exemptions are granted for substances that are generally recognized, among experts qualified by scientific training and experience to evaluate their safety, as having been adequately shown through scientific procedures (or, in the case of a substance used in food prior to January 1, 1958, through either scientific procedures or through experience based on common use in food) to be safe under the conditions of their intended use.

The substance must be shown to be "generally recognized" as safe under the conditions of its intended use. The proponent of the exemption has the burden of proving that the use of the substance is "generally recognized" as safe. To establish such recognition, the proponent must show that there is a consensus of expert opinion regarding the safety of the use of the substance. However, the existence of a severe conflict among experts regarding the safety of a substance precludes a finding of general recognition.


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## Tall (Aug 14, 2007)

w_llewellyn said:


> Also, I take exception to the accusation that I am a profiteer, selling only marketing hype for the sake of raking in profits.


Ah! Bill! Author of Anabolics 2007?

Sneaky adding X-Factor in the book... Good marketing move though.


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## w_llewellyn (Dec 28, 2007)

TH&S said:


> Ah! Bill! Author of Anabolics 2007?
> 
> Sneaky adding X-Factor in the book... Good marketing move though.


I do run a business, LOL.. And it DOES work, so I feel it is appropriate.

I am not a total lunatic. I do know that if it didn't actually work, pushing a useless supplement, especially to a community that uses real gear, would be professional suicide.


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## w_llewellyn (Dec 28, 2007)

In fact, I'll go one further..

I state my entire professional reputation on the fact that X-Factor works, for the vast majority of people that use it. If this is NOT true, than I DESERVE to be tarred, feathered, and thrown out of this industry on my little keister.


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## Tall (Aug 14, 2007)

w_llewellyn said:


> I do run a business, LOL.. And it DOES work, so I feel it is appropriate. I am not a total lunatic.


I've got to admit I don't know vast amounts about it as a supplement.

Now, ignoring your initial reaction to Hackskii's 'Pushing Poison' post - have you got the time to go into some detail on it as a supplement?

I have a friend who is currently running it, and I'd be interested to hear from you about it on a non-defensive level if you have the time?


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## Delhi (Dec 8, 2005)

AA aside, welcome to the board.

I enjoyed your books.

Stick around I am sure you could give and recieve valuable information.


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## w_llewellyn (Dec 28, 2007)

TH&S said:


> I've got to admit I don't know vast amounts about it as a supplement.
> 
> Now, ignoring your initial reaction to Hackskii's 'Pushing Poison' post - have you got the time to go into some detail on it as a supplement?
> 
> I have a friend who is currently running it, and I'd be interested to hear from you about it on a non-defensive level if you have the time?


I should have the time.. Shoot..


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## Tall (Aug 14, 2007)

w_llewellyn said:


> In fact, I'll go one further..
> 
> I state my entire professional reputation on the fact that X-Factor works, for the vast majority of people that use it. If this is NOT true, than I DESERVE to be tarred, feathered, and thrown out of this industry on my little keister.


Would you go so far as to offer free courses of the supplement for willing volunteers...? It retails for about $100 (£50) in the Uk so its not something I've considered using as the uk price doesn't justify it.


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## w_llewellyn (Dec 28, 2007)

TH&S said:


> Would you go so far as to offer free courses of the supplement for willing volunteers...? It retails for about $100 (£50) in the Uk so its not something I've considered using as the uk price doesn't justify it.


Funny you ask, because that has been our principle marketing strategy up to this point. The product really has been taking off due to word of mouth, not advertising.

I will need to check with the office/reps.. Maybe we can do something on this site along these lines. Being that most users are UK based we'd need to look into the logistics, however, so I can't make any promises..


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## Tall (Aug 14, 2007)

w_llewellyn said:


> I should have the time.. Shoot..


Okay - bearing in mind I know little about this supplement...

How would you describe its primary purpose as a supplement?

What do you beleive the most effect consumption level is and why?

What gains/sides were seen at the effective level, and and lower/higher levels?

Is this supplement something you take yourself?

How long would this supplement be used for?

What other supplements would aid/hinder the gains made with this supplement?

There was a statement made earlier about AA kills rabbits within 3 minutes of an injection. Is this true? If so why does this occur? What would happen if this supplement were to be injected in humans? Is this supplement only designed to be taken orally?

Am I right in thinking that Aspirin stops the function of AA?

Is there any truth in the fact that 12 Jumbo Egg Yolks contain the daily requirement for AA? (Thats badly phrases but you know what I mean)


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## Tall (Aug 14, 2007)

w_llewellyn said:


> Funny you ask, because that has been our principle marketing strategy up to this point. *The product really has been taking off due to word of mouth, not advertising.*
> 
> I will need to check with the office/reps.. Maybe we can do something on this site along these lines. Being that most users are UK based we'd need to look into the logistics, however, so I can't make any promises..


Surely thats down to the insertion of the product in the book?


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## w_llewellyn (Dec 28, 2007)

TH&S said:


> Surely thats down to the insertion of the product in the book?


I could only hope ANABOLICS were so influential, as X-Factor FAR outsells the book.


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## w_llewellyn (Dec 28, 2007)

*How would you describe its primary purpose as a supplement?*

Its primary purpose is to amplify the localized (tissue) response to training. It is generally taken to increase muscle mass, strength, and improve body composition (fat vs. lean mass).

*What do you beleive the most effect consumption level is and why? *

It works well in low doses, but the strongest anabolic effect seems to hit at about 750mg to 1gram per day..

*What gains/sides were seen at the effective level, and and lower/higher levels?*

At the peak level we generally see 1-2 pounds of lean mass gained per week.. 7-15 pounds per 50 day cycle.. 10 pounds give or take is very common provided everything else is in order. Sides at this dose are generally soreness (DOMS), oily skin (it slightly increases androgen sensitivity), and occasionally difficulty sleeping..

It works well at lower doses (250mg per day for example), but this is "supportive" range. You should notice few side effects, but gains will be slow, but progress should be steady.. This level is more "long term" use as opposed to short-term "rapid-anabolic" use.

We don't advise higher dose use, but safety studies showing no ill effects have gone up to 1.7grams per day.. People sometimes take 1,250 mg per day with no greater incidence of side effects.

*Is this supplement something you take yourself?*

Yes, but I am asthmatic and suffer from an inflammatory condition. I use it but need to be careful not to overuse it. I haven't had any problems with AA though..

*How long would this supplement be used for?*

I recommend 50 day cycles.. Maybe 8 weeks at most for high dose use.

*What other supplements would aid/hinder the gains made with this supplement?*

It is very versatile, as it amplifies the core physiological response to training. Many other supplements (NO, Creatine, test boosters, etc) feed off of this downstream..

It should not be taken with white willow bark, or any VERY potent cox inhibitor.

*There was a statement made earlier about AA kills rabbits within 3 minutes of an injection. Is this true? If so why does this occur? What would happen if this supplement were to be injected in humans? Is this supplement only designed to be taken orally?*

I don't know if it is true. I've never injected a human or rabbit with AA. I do know it is regarded as safe (see above, GRAS, safety data etc.), and have no concerns that it will harm any healthy individual that takes it. We only sell it for oral use. Note that AA is also commonly added to baby food.

*Am I right in thinking that Aspirin stops the function of AA?*

yes

*Is there any truth in the fact that 12 Jumbo Egg Yolks contain the daily requirement for AA? *

Yeah, I think it is about 13 regular whole white eggs. Not that this is actually the same thing - but does contain the stated amount of AA.


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## Tall (Aug 14, 2007)

What were the worst side effects found during the testing phase?

Is there any pre-existing conditions which would have a negative interaction with AA? And what are they? (I.e. Any Allergies, CV issues such as asthma etc etc)

Would you classify the gains made on this product as Solid, Short Term or Temporary?

What gains could a person expect to keep when they come off this product?


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## w_llewellyn (Dec 28, 2007)

*What were the worst side effects found during the testing phase?*

Soreness.. Headache maybe.. The incidence of side effects is fairly low..

*Is there any pre-existing conditions which would have a negative interaction with AA? And what are they? (I.e. Any Allergies, CV issues such as asthma etc etc)*

If you have an inflammatory condition, the body may use the greater levels of AA to increases inflammation.. Any inflammatory condition could in theory be affected by this, so we recommend its not be used if you suffer from any inflammatory disease..

*Would you classify the gains made on this product as Solid, Short Term or Temporary?*

Very solid and long term. It is not like creatine, for example, that loads fluid in your tissues.

*What gains could a person expect to keep when they come off this product?*

Since there is no hormonal interruption there is no "post-cycle crash", and most of the gains made on AA are very well retained after its use has stopped..


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## Tall (Aug 14, 2007)

Very interesting...

Are you planning on sticking around the board? Or was it just a brief stop to defend your honour?

I know of a number of people who would be very keen to speak to you.


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## Truewarrior1 (Jan 27, 2005)

i've been a member on bodybuilding.com for a long time as have you,i remember when it first came out certain people warning of the dangers,unfortunately i can't find the detailed thread on it i was looking for..but heres some stuff to think about.

http://blog.bodybuilding.com/bjrboss/2006/12/10/warning-x-factor-is-dangerous/

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=1899111&page=2

http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2007/feb2007_cover_prostate_01.htm

Arachidonic acids are found primarily in fatty red meats, egg yolks and organ meats. This particular polyunsaturaed fat may be the most dangerous fat know when consumed in excess and is known as an Omega 6 fat. In fact, you can inject virtually every type of fat (even saturated fat and cholesterol) into rabbits and nothing happens. However, if you inject (AA) arachidonic acid into the same rabbits they are dead within three minutes. The human body needs "some" arachidonic acid, but too much can be toxic.

Abnormalities of arachidonic acid metabolism have been implicated in spasm and thrombosis of coronary arteries. Scientists in Japan investigated levels of arachidonic acid metabolites in patients with acute myocardial infarction.46 Plasma levels of thromboxane B2 and leukotriene B4 in systemic artery blood were significantly elevated during the acute stage of heart attack. These findings suggest that abnormalities of arachidonic acid metabolism accompany and may play a role in the pathogenesis of acute myocardial infarction.

yes ,very safe..


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## dmcc (Nov 25, 2007)

Sounds like an interesting product indeed. Need a fat guy volunteer? 

However, the sceptic in me would like to know: (1) has Baylor University received any payment or consideration from the manufacturer for its research; and (2) has the study been peer-reviewed?

Understand, I'm not suggesting anything dodgy - but instances of researchers being paid to generate the "right" result are documented.


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## Tall (Aug 14, 2007)

Truewarrior1 said:


> Arachidonic acids are found primarily in fatty red meats, egg yolks and organ meats. This particular polyunsaturaed fat may be the most dangerous fat know when consumed in excess and is known as an Omega 6 fat. In fact, you can inject virtually every type of fat (even saturated fat and cholesterol) into rabbits and nothing happens. However, if you inject (AA) arachidonic acid into the same rabbits they are dead within three minutes. The human body needs "some" arachidonic acid, but too much can be toxic.


True - how much was injected into the Rabbits? Were human studies done? Were studies done on other animals?



Truewarrior1 said:


> Abnormalities of arachidonic acid metabolism have been implicated in spasm and thrombosis of coronary arteries. Scientists in Japan investigated levels of arachidonic acid metabolites in patients with acute myocardial infarction.46 Plasma levels of thromboxane B2 and leukotriene B4 in systemic artery blood were significantly elevated during the acute stage of heart attack. These findings suggest that abnormalities of arachidonic acid metabolism accompany and may play a role in the pathogenesis of acute myocardial infarction.
> 
> yes ,very safe..


So where the AA is metabolised abnormally things can go wrong? And people who have had heart attacks due to restricted blood flow to the heart also shouldn't take any kind of imflammatory?


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## Truewarrior1 (Jan 27, 2005)

Arachidonic Acid Causes Sudden Death in Rabbits

Melvin J. Silver 1, Willis Hoch 1, James J. Kocsis 1, Carol M. Ingerman 1, and J. Bryan Smith 1

1 Cardeza Foundation and Departments of Pharmacology and Pathology, Thomas Jefferson University, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19107

Injection of sodium arachidonate (1.4 milligrams per kilogram) into the marginal ear veins of rabbits caused death within 3 minutes. Histological examination showed platelet thrombi in the microvasculature of the lungs. Rabbits were protected from the lethal effects of arachidonic acid by pretreatment with aspirin. Fatty acids closely related to arachidonic acid did not cause death.

ALSO

Stroke in rats produced by carotid injection of sodium arachidonate

TW Furlow Jr and NH Bass

Unilateral cerebrovascular occlusion was produced in heparinized rats within 60 seconds after an injection of sodium arachidonate (in doses exceeding 0.45 milligram per kilogram) into the carotid artery. Electroencephalographic activity over the affected cerebral hemisphere was suppressed, and cerebral blood flow decreased by half. Microscopic examination revealed complete obstruction of the hemispheric microcirculation by platelet aggregates.


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## Tall (Aug 14, 2007)

Truewarrior1 said:


> http://blog.bodybuilding.com/bjrboss/2006/12/10/warning-x-factor-is-dangerous/
> 
> ^^^ He had a pre-existing Colon Ulcer which was made worse by taking an imflamatory drug...
> 
> ...


True you've just fallen foul of beleiving internet hearsay.

I'm not tryign to defend AA as I know little about it, but what you've basically posted is the equivalent of the following:

"Steroids made me lose my hair, even though all the men on my moms side were bald by 30"

"Steroids gave me man boobs, and now no one loves me"

"Rockstar ate my hamster"


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## Truewarrior1 (Jan 27, 2005)

i'm not saying it's unsafe,i'm saying it's unsafe for people with certain conditions,they may not even know they have the condition before they take it.i personally would never take it.i believe no human studies have been done with the injection route,and i imagine for good reason they probably never will be done.


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## Tall (Aug 14, 2007)

Truewarrior1 said:


> Arachidonic Acid Causes Sudden Death in Rabbits
> 
> Melvin J. Silver 1, Willis Hoch 1, James J. Kocsis 1, Carol M. Ingerman 1, and J. Bryan Smith 1
> 
> ...


^^^ Those are more interesting.

Why was it being injected? Have you got the full papers or just the extracts True?

Then again injecting air is dangerous... Taken orally, air is fine...


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## Tall (Aug 14, 2007)

Truewarrior1 said:


> i'm not saying it's unsafe,*i'm saying it's unsafe for people with certain conditions,they may not even know they have the condition before they take it*.i personally would never take it.i believe no human studies have been done with the injection route,and i imagine for good reason they probably never will be done.


The same is true of alot of drugs, but perhaps not so of alot of supplements, which is interesting...

Bill - where do you stand on all these findings?


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## w_llewellyn (Dec 28, 2007)

Truewarrior1 said:


> yes ,very safe..


You just reposted the same thing we were taking about.. Only adding to it a study illustrating that abnormal metabolism of AA is noted in certain disease.. Abnormal metabolism of many things is seen with disease, hence the term abnormal metabolism.

Here are some relevant safety studies of AA in humans, in doses similar to or above what we recommend:

Dietary arachidonic acid: harmful, harmless or helpful?

British Journal of Nutrition (2007), 98, 451-453

In conclusion, this new study by Katsumoto et al. adds valuable new information to our knowledge about the impact of increased dietary intake of arachidonic acid11. *Taken together with earlier studies12 - 20, this study suggests that, rather than being harmful, moderately increased arachidonic acid intake is probably harmless in healthy adults, although the effect of intakes above 1·5 g/d are not known and the effect of increased intake in diseased individuals is not known. *Furthermore, arachidonic acid appears to be an important constituent of infant formulas and in this setting may be helpful in growth, development and health.

***

The effect of dietary arachidonic acid on plasma lipoprotein distributions, apoproteins, blood lipid levels, and tissue fatty acid composition in humans.

Nelson GJ, Schmidt PC, Bartolini G, Kelley DS, Phinney SD, Kyle D, Silbermann S, Schaefer EJ.

Normal healthy male volunteers (n = 10) were fed diets (high-AA) containing 1.7 g/d of arachidonic acid (AA) for 50 d. The control (low-AA) diet contained 210 mg/d of AA. Dietary AA had no statistically significant effect on the blood cholesterol levels, lipoprotein distribution, or apoprotein levels. Adipose tissue fatty acid composition was not influenced by AA feeding. The plasma total fatty acid composition was markedly enriched in AA after 50 d (P < 0.005). The fatty acid composition of plasma lipid fractions, cholesterol esters, triglycerides, free fatty acids, and phospholipid (PL) showed marked differences in the degree of enrichment in AA. The PL plasma fraction from the subjects consuming the low-AA diet contained 10.3% AA while the subjects who consumed the high-AA diet had plasma PL fractions containing 19.0% AA. The level of 22:4n-6 also was different (0.67 to 1.06%) in the plasma PL fraction after 50 d of AA feeding. After consuming the high-AA diet, the total red blood cell fatty acid composition was significantly enriched in AA which mainly replaced linoleic acid. These results indicate that dietary AA is incorporated into tissue lipids, but selectively into different tissues and lipid classes.* Perhaps more importantly, the results demonstrate that dietary AA does not alter blood lipids or lipoprotein levels or have obvious adverse health effects at this level and duration of feeding.*

***

The effect of dietary arachidonic acid on platelet function, platelet fatty acid composition, and blood coagulation in humans.

Arachidonic acid (AA) is the precursor of thromboxane and prostacyclin, two of the most active compounds related to platelet function. The effect of dietary AA on platelet function in humans is not understood although a previous study suggested dietary AA might have adverse physiological consequences on platelet function. Here normal healthy male volunteers (n = 10) were fed diets containing 1.7 g/d of AA for 50 d. The control diet contained 210 mg/d of AA. Platelet aggregation in the platelet-rich plasma was determined using ADP, collagen, and AA. No statistical differences could be detected between the aggregation before and after consuming the high-AA diet. The prothrombin time, partial thromboplastin time, and the antithrombin III levels in the subjects were determined also. There were no statistically significant differences in these three parameters when the values were compared before and after they consumed the high-AA diet. The in vivo bleeding times also did not show a significant difference before and after the subjects consumed the high-AA diet. Platelets exhibited only small changes in their AA content during the AA feeding period.* The results from this study on blood clotting parameters and in vitro platelet aggregation suggest that adding 1.5 g/d of dietary AA for 50 d to a typical Western diet containing about 200 mg of AA produces no observable physiological changes in blood coagulation and thrombotic tendencies in healthy, adult males compared to the unsupplemented diet. Thus, moderate intakes of foods high in AA have few effects on blood coagulation, platelet function, or platelet fatty acid composition.*

***

Effects of dietary arachidonic acid on human immune response.

Arachidonic acid (AA) is a precursor of eicosanoids, which influence human health and the in vitro activity of immune cells. We therefore examined the effects of dietary AA on the immune response (IR) of 10 healthy men living at our metabolic suite for 130 d. All subjects were fed a basal diet containing 27 energy percentage (en%) fat, 57 en% carbohydrate, and 16 en% protein (AA, 200 mg/d) for the first and last 15 d of the study. Additional AA (1.5 g/d) was incorporated into the diet of six men from day 16 to 65 while the remaining four subjects continued to eat the basal diet. The diets of the two groups were crossed-over from day 66 to 115. In vitro indexes of IR were examined using the blood samples drawn on days 15, 58, 65, 108, 115, and 127. The subjects were immunized with the measles/mumps/rubella vaccine on day 35 and with the influenza vaccine on day 92. Dietary AA did not influence many indexes of IR (peripheral blood mononuclear cell proliferation in response to phytohemagglutinin, Concanavalin A, pokeweed, measles/mumps/rubella, and influenza vaccines prior to immunization, and natural killer cell activity). The post-immunization proliferation in response to influenza vaccine was about fourfold higher in the group receiving high-AA diet compared to the group receiving low-AA diet (P = 0.02). Analysis of variance of the data pooled from both groups showed that the number of circulating granulocytes was significantly (P = 0.03) more when the subjects were fed the high-AA diet than when they were fed the low-AA diet. The small increases in granulocyte count and the in vitro proliferation in response to influenza vaccine caused by dietary AA may not be of clinical significance. *However, the lack of any adverse effects on IR indicates that supplementation with AA may be done safely when needed for other health reasons.*


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## w_llewellyn (Dec 28, 2007)

TH&S said:


> The same is true of alot of drugs, but perhaps not so of alot of supplements, which is interesting...
> 
> Bill - where do you stand on all these findings?


I think it is probably not a good idea to inject sodium arachidonate into your marginal ear veins. Other than that, I'd direct you to the most relevant safety data I posted above, which involves the oral supplementation of arachidonic acid in similar doses with healthy adult humans for similar periods of time. I don't think it would be possible to produce safety data that is any more relevant or concrete that this..


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## Truewarrior1 (Jan 27, 2005)

TH&S said:


> ^^^ Those are more interesting.
> 
> Why was it being injected? Have you got the full papers or just the extracts True?
> 
> Then again injecting air is dangerous... Taken orally, air is fine...


unfortunately i only have the extracts,the papers would cost money i don't have  , and you'd have to inject a fair amount of air for it to cause an embolism to kill you,and not just more than cellular death!

and it's great that it's PROBABLY harmless.

where do you stand on this then?

"As can be seen in Figure 1, both saturated and omega-6 fats convert to arachidonic acid in the body, whereas the meat itself contains arachidonic acid. One way that the body rids itself of excess arachidonic acid is by producing a dangerous enzyme called 5-lipoxygenase (5-LOX). New studies show conclusively that 5-LOX directly stimulates prostate cancer cell proliferation via several well-defined mechanisms.2,26,30-36 In addition, arachidonic acid is metabolized by 5-LOX to 5-HETE, a potent survival factor that prostate cancer cells utilize to escape destruction.31,37-40" thats an excerpt from the third link i posted.


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## Tall (Aug 14, 2007)

w_llewellyn said:


> I think it is probably not a good idea to inject sodium arachidonate into your marginal ear veins. Other than that, I'd direct you to the most relevant safety data I posted above, which involves the oral supplementation of arachidonic acid in similar doses with healthy adult humans for similar periods of time. I don't think it would be possible to produce safety data that is any more relevant or concrete that this..


Is that AA bonded with Salt?


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## Tall (Aug 14, 2007)

Truewarrior1 said:


> unfortunately i only have the extracts,the papers would cost money i don't have  , and you'd have to inject a fair amount of air for it to cause an embolism to kill you,and not just more than cellular death!


yes but what about in something smaller... say... a rat? 

Can you see where I'm coming from? I'm tryign to get past the BS/The Hype/The Hearsay and find the truth.

Not often you have a supplement inventor come on the board.


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## Truewarrior1 (Jan 27, 2005)

no i agree mate it ..this just struck me wrong..

"You are also incorrect, in that if you truly found a novel and effective new use for corn oil, you could patent that use. I, however, was not after selling empty promises and marketing hype on something like corn oil, as you so politely have accused me of. I think my time in this industry, my work, and my reputation should speak for itself.. but I guess not around here."

1.i believe we should question everything,no matter the source.

2.he hasn't actually said the difference between corn flour and his supplement

3.he claims to have made 'new technology' to produce this supplement,i'd like to know how it differs from the technology used to extract AA from eggs for baby formulas,which has been around for years prior to his supplement.

4.the supplement industry isn't known for complying with FDA approved contents,what about all these *for now* LEGAL prohormones being being bandered about,it's not as if we haven't had harmful supplements before.


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## w_llewellyn (Dec 28, 2007)

Truewarrior1 said:


> where do you stand on this then?
> 
> "As can be seen in Figure 1, both saturated and omega-6 fats convert to arachidonic acid in the body, whereas the meat itself contains arachidonic acid. One way that the body rids itself of excess arachidonic acid is by producing a dangerous enzyme called 5-lipoxygenase (5-LOX). New studies show conclusively that 5-LOX directly stimulates prostate cancer cell proliferation via several well-defined mechanisms.2,26,30-36 In addition, arachidonic acid is metabolized by 5-LOX to 5-HETE, a potent survival factor that prostate cancer cells utilize to escape destruction.31,37-40" thats an excerpt from the third link i posted.


The level of AA in the diet has been shown to have no impact on whether or not you get cancer. It is not a carcinogen. It is a potent growth promoter, however, and like others of this class such as growth hormone, IGF-1, anabolic/androgenic steroids should never be used if you have cancer. These agents may increase the growth of cancer cells like they would normal cells.


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## Tall (Aug 14, 2007)

Truewarrior1 said:


> no i agree mate it ..this just struck me wrong..
> 
> "You are also incorrect, in that if you truly found a novel and effective new use for corn oil, you could patent that use. I, however, was not after selling empty promises and marketing hype on something like corn oil, as you so politely have accused me of. I think my time in this industry, my work, and my reputation should speak for itself.. but I guess not around here."
> 
> ...


Yes but I asked that the discussion be continued in a non-defensive manner when it dawned on me who he was, and what the product was. I think it was about my 2nd or third post.

That post was highly defensive, which I wanted to get past and onto some productive discussion.

But yes I agree in questioning everything


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## w_llewellyn (Dec 28, 2007)

*1.i believe we should question everything,no matter the source.*

Agreed, but you also have to look at the source in determining how credible something is or not.

*2.he hasn't actually said the difference between corn flour and his supplement*

I don't believe corn flower is anabolic, nor shares the clear association with the anabolic process as I have outlined with arachidonic acid.

*3.he claims to have made 'new technology' to produce this supplement,i'd like to know how it differs from the technology used to extract AA from eggs for baby formulas,which has been around for years prior to his supplement.*

I never claimed to have made new technology to PRODUCE this supplement. The technology is the discoveries I have made relating to the central role of AA in the anabolic process and its methods for use as a muscle-building anabolic. ANd this is not a patent-pending supplement, but a patented one. The U.S. Patent & Trademark Office agreed that I had developed a novel and pantentable use for AA.


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## w_llewellyn (Dec 28, 2007)

Truewarrior1 said:


> 4.the supplement industry isn't known for complying with FDA approved contents,what about all these *for now* LEGAL prohormones being being bandered about,it's not as if we haven't had harmful supplements before.


We do not sell illegal designer steroids in violation of U.S. law, and AA is not only DSHEA compliant as a dietary supplement but also GRAS approved. I am not sure what the actions of others have to do with our actions?


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## Tall (Aug 14, 2007)

ProHormones aren't supplements though - they are steroids which currently benefit from a loophole in the law giving them legal status.

Bill - just to say thanks for your replies thus far.


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## Tall (Aug 14, 2007)

Truewarrior1 said:


> 2.he hasn't actually said the difference between corn flour and his supplement.


Did you mean Corn *Oil* true - as opposed to Corn Flour?


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## w_llewellyn (Dec 28, 2007)

TH&S said:


> ProHormones aren't supplements though - they are steroids which currently benefit from a loophole in the law giving them legal status.
> 
> Bill - just to say thanks for your replies thus far.


Just FYI, they do not have legal status. They are considered misbranded drugs in the U.S., and are illegal. The government is just slow to act. No loophole.

No problem. Happy to help.


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## ah24 (Jun 25, 2006)

Bill, quick question.

I'm looking to compete in natty comps (first one in July) - If I was to experiment with AA could I get pulled up in the drug test?


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## w_llewellyn (Dec 28, 2007)

ah24 said:


> Bill, quick question.
> 
> I'm looking to compete in natty comps (first one in July) - If I was to experiment with AA could I get pulled up in the drug test?


We thus far we have not done any special testing or certification on this, but you shouldn't have any issue. It is made at a GMP certified facility that doesn't work with anabolic steroids, and we've had many natural bodybuilders use it for contest prep with excellent success.

In fact, we've just recently had it used for contest prep by the person that won the Mr. Long Island and Mr. New Jersey titles.


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## Truewarrior1 (Jan 27, 2005)

TH&S said:


> Did you mean Corn *Oil* true - as opposed to Corn Flour?


yes i did WMS on the mind im afraid!,the prohormone comment wasn't directed at your company bill as you don't sell any to my knowledge,merely commenting that not everything coming out of the supplement industry is safe.

"X-Factor is the result of YEARS worth of hard work, experimentation, and dedication to a very new technology our industry has not known before."

what new technology? hard work and experimentation yes,what dedication to a very new technology?

from my point of view it looks like you've found out AA has an anabolic effect,funded 2 studies,tested it on people,found out it works,and sold it at a huge mark-up?

how is corn oil AA different from your AA?

"The level of AA in the diet has been shown to have no impact on whether or not you get cancer. It is not a carcinogen. It is a potent growth promoter, however, and like others of this class such as growth hormone, IGF-1, anabolic/androgenic steroids *should never be used if you have cancer.* These agents may increase the growth of cancer cells like they would normal cells."

that study doesn't show you GET cancer from it,but that if you have cancer AA will speed up the process! yes just like we know AAS/GH/IGF does,but where's the warning when u buy your product saying 'if you have cancer,don't take this,because it'll help the cancer survive' and how many people really know they have cancer until they get the symptoms?very few i'd imagine.

don't take this personal,i used to love you and PA arguing for days on end


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## ah24 (Jun 25, 2006)

w_llewellyn said:


> We thus far we have not done any special testing or certification on this, but you shouldn't have any issue. It is made at a GMP certified facility that doesn't work with anabolic steroids, and we've had many natural bodybuilders use it for contest prep with excellent success.
> 
> In fact, we've just recently had it used for contest prep by the person that won the Mr. Long Island and Mr. New Jersey titles.


Thats great, cheers mate.

If you do end up doing it a discounted rate on here or need people to test it - drop me a PM


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## dmcc (Nov 25, 2007)

Oi ah, TH and I asked first!


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## ah24 (Jun 25, 2006)

dmcc said:


> Oi ah, TH and I asked first!


You can't stick to a diet so the results would be void...too many variables:love:

Plus pre-comp is a little different to just average rec. weightlifter


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## dmcc (Nov 25, 2007)

Git.  And I never said that I can't stick to a diet, just that I'm not that bothered about diets.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

w_llewellyn said:


> We believe this is caused by AA improving insulin sensitivity in skeletal muscle (by improving the localized training response), which in turn helps better control insulin. This in turn is linked to lower, not higher, systemic inflammation.


Welcome to the board first off.

I was wondering when you were going to defend your product and reputation.

I love your books but I would totally recommend not supplementing AA in the body.

Your statement above seems to me to be incorrect.

I think you are reffering to insulin sensitivity PWO and yes exercise helps against insulin resisitance.

Adding AA to your body increases insulin resistance not the other way around.

If you are suggesting that bodybuilders are defficient in AA, think again.

Dr. Sears has devoted alot of his medical field in research to this very topic.

The SIP test suggests that AA is too high in the typical American diet.

Bodybuilders eat more food due to physical requirements than the average joe and not to mention many of the bodybuilders diet is high in AA, not the other way around as you suggest.

I want you to re-read my posts carefully, they reflect my feelings on this topic.

For the record I am adament against the use of supplementing AA in the diet.

Insulin resistance and a diet high in AA is not healthy, period.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Could AA be a contributor of colorectal cancer, or auto-immune disorders?

PubMed that one&#8230;..lol

If the typical American diet is too high in Omega 6 fatty acids, why would I add AA to my diet if I already have enough in my diet?

Too many Omega 6's in the diet disrupt good eicosanoid production. If the ratio of Omega 3 to Omega 6's in the diet is optimum at 1/1 to ¼, and the typical American diet is 1/10 to 1/25, why would or should I add AA to my diet?

There is a test called The Silent Inflammation Profile (SIP) that is very new and this test determines the EPA to AA ratio in the body. Seems the Japanese have very low incidence in heart disease this test determines the persons profile of eicosanoid production for good health. Japanese have the lowest SIP test of any Country, Americans have one of the highest AA to EPA ratio. With that said, you suggest we weight lifters are difficient?.............I highly doubt that one, if anything it is too high and avoidance of AA would be better than supplementing it.

Again the Americans diet is too high in the ratio of AA to EPA? So, with that said, do you really feel this is necessary to supplement?

You said the "FDA has even granted Generally Recognized As Safe (GRAS) status on AA"

Oh man, is this the same FDA that approved Vioxx as safe? You know the one that killed all those people it was supposed to help, before it got pulled from the market, and lawsuits pending?

Or the original Statin drugs that killed more people than it helped that were FDA approved?

Is this the Same AA that Dr. Barry Sears has been warning the general public about for the last 20 years?

Barry Sears has been the pioneer leader in this country for eicosanoid research, he routinely expresses his concern on the dangers of too much AA.

*Ironically, the higher your insulin levels, the more your body is stimulated to make increased levels of arachidonic acid.* (AA) is a long-chain omega-6 fatty acid. Enchaned production of good eicosanoids requires the presence of EPA and DHA long chain "omega 3" fats, found in fish oil.

So much for your suggestion that AA lowers insulin resistance.

Copy and paste from some of Sears work: LOX Enzymes

Unlike inhibitors of the COX enzymes, there are very few inhibitors of the LOX enzymes. Since leukotrienes (particular LTB4) represent a primary mediator of pain, then the only way to affect their production is to use corticosteroids with all of their associated side effects. However, the leukotrienes synthesized from EPA are physiologically neuter compared to those derived from arachidonic acid. This is why the AA/EPA ratio is a very good indicator of the body's potential to prevent the over-production of leukotrienes without using resorting to the use of corticosteroids.

Drug companies are racing to develop new patentable drugs--ones that affect the downstream enzymes that control eicosanoid production from arachidonic acid. Overlooked in this frenzy by the drug companies seeking new and more expensive drugs to go downstream to modify eicosanoid synthesis, is that there is an existing "drug" that can achieve all of these benefits without any side effects. This is because it goes upstream to modify eicosanoid production by reducing arachidonic acid levels. That "drug" is high-dose fish oil since the elevated levels of EPA will reduce the production of "bad" eicosanoids (such as PGE2 and LTB4) derived from arachidonic acid.

Another snip:

This is because the end product that the delta-5-desaturase enzyme that produces from DGLA is arachidonic acid (AA). *DGLA is the building block of many of the "good" eicosanoids, whereas AA is the building block of "bad" eicosanoids. Thus excess amounts of AA can be one of your worst hormonal nightmares. Ultimately, it is the balance between DGLA and AA in every one of your 60 trillion cells that determines which types of eicosanoids you will produce. You need some AA to produce some "bad" eicosanoids, but in the case of excess production of AA, the balance of eicosanoids will shift toward accelerated aging and chronic disease.*

Some of the Eicosanoids Derived from Arachidonic Acid

Arachidonic Acid (AA)

COX 5-LOX 12 and 15 LOX

PGH2 TXA2 LTB4 12-HETE Lipoxin

PGD2 PGI2

LTBC4 15-HETE

PGJ2 PGF2a PGE2

PGB2 LTBD4

PGA2

LTBE4

Many of these eicosanoids derived from arachidonic acid can be considered to be "bad" because they promote inflammation (PGE2 and LTB4) and decrease blood flow (TXA2). In addition, the inflammatory "bad" eicosanoids can also promote the release of other pro-inflammatory cytokines.

Another snip

Insulin was an activator of the delta-5-desaturase enzyme. The role of excess insulin in negatively affecting eicosanoid balance also explained why excess insulin was highly associated with heart disease. It wasn't that insulin was a cause, but that it drove the metabolism of essential fatty acids to make more arachidonic acid, and therefore more "bad" eicosanoids. *The more "bad" eicosanoids you make, the more likely you will promote platelet aggregation and increased vasoconstriction, the underlying factors for a heart attack.*

Seems much of what you are saying is in contradiction to what is already been known about this pro-inflammatory substance.

So you say you are not a profiteer?

This might interest you some&#8230;lol

Bill Phillips had a product called HMB and said it was supposed to be similar to Deca, it wasn't, he was wrong, he made a ton of money and never apologized for making a mistake.

Magazines are owned by supplement company's like these for instance:

Muscle and fitness-------------------Weider Products

Muscle Media------------------------EAS

Muscular Development---------------TwinLab

Pump-------------------------------SoCal

Muscle Mag-------------------------Robert Kennedy's Line/Muscle Tech

Flex--------------------------------Weider Products

Testosterone-----------------------Biotest

See how ****ing easy it is to deceive?

Are they liars?-----------Yep.

Do they make money?----Yep.

Is it right?---------------Nope.

I think what you are doing, you feel are right but I don't believe you have read up enough on this substance to verify it is in fact safe let's say 20 years down the road?

There is a huge range of people that should avoid this product, only a small portion of this population could see benefits from this with no health consequences. This product does nothing to promote good health and everything to promote poor health.

Diets high in omega-6 fats and saturated fats are associated with greater prostate cancer risk, whereas increased intake of omega-3 fats from fish has been shown to reduce risk.

Snip:

*Based on studies showing that consumption of foods rich in arachidonic acid is greatest in regions with high incidences of prostate cancer*,26,30,35,49 scientists sought to determine how much of the 5-LOX enzyme is present in malignant versus benign prostate tissues.

Using biopsy samples taken from living human patients, the researchers found that 5-LOX levels were an astounding six-fold greater in malignant prostate tissues compared to benign tissues. This study also found that levels of 5-HETE (a 5-LOX metabolite that prevents prostate cancer destruction) were 2.2-fold greater in malignant versus benign prostate tissues.33

The scientists concluded this study by stating that selective inhibitors of 5-LOX may be useful in the prevention or treatment of patients with prostate cancer.

*As a man, this does not concern you William?*

The very fact that every man in the world if he lives long enough will have some form of prostate problems whether it be BPH, prostatitis, or prostate cancer, all men will have one or more of these conditions if he lives long enough.

Still think pushing this poison is a good idea?

I know from first hand experiance that fish oils helped me urinate harder with more flow. I am 48 years old and noticed this very thing with fish oils after about 3 months.

I would bet alot of money that if I added X-Factor to my diet that those benefits from fish oils would be reversed, I would lay money on this and might just go ahead and do it to prove my point, at my own health risk.

I have no interest in this other than good health, you can defend your position if you like but it goes against everything I have learned on good Eicosanoid production, not to mention you are making money off of this stuff.

What is to say that the kids won't take more than suggested? You know how bodybuilders are; they routinely take more than suggested.


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## w_llewellyn (Dec 28, 2007)

You are continuing to confuse a regular sedentary model for active training people. To begin with, contrary to what you say about dietary AA levels being sufficient, studies consistently show that people that regularly train have lower levels of AA in muscle phospholipids and a reduced prostaglandin response. It is one of the things that leads to training stagnation.

You do correctly link higher AA release to higher insulin levels, but it is a consequence, not cause. Furthermore, the model you are talking about is, again, sedentary, and with people noticing insulin resistance. Indeed with insulin resistance comes elevated release of AA and elevated inflammatory cytokine IL-6 (a key marker of systemic inflammation). Hyperinsulinemia is closely related to systemic inflammation.

But again, that is not what happens with active training people who supplement AA - whose bodies are utilizing AA on constant basis to build/repair skeletal muscle tissue. Our studies demonstrated that AA combined with resistance training actually reduced IL-6, not increased it. It seems most logical to say that AA improves the local tissue response to training, and as a result many of the good things come from productive workouts.


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## w_llewellyn (Dec 28, 2007)

BTW - Linoleic acid is the main fatty acid to be concerned about with regard to prostate cancer, not AA. There is a positive correlation between dietary LA and cancer risk, whereas no such association was shown with AA. You also cannot support assertions made about AA by looking at studies talking about total Omega-6 intake. As you know, Omega 6 represents a broad category of fatty acids, of which AA is only 1.

I will agree with you so far as to say if you have prostate hypertrophy, cancer, elevated PSA values etc you shouldn't take AA, or anabolic steroids for that matter. If you are healthy, however, I consider your position alarmist since it concerns an essential fatty acid with an enormous amount of safety data behind it. As far as anabolic substances go, it is far safer than hormones, and we all know how overstated the risks of those are. I have studied AA for years and find absolutely no reason anyone should be concerned with using it so long as they are healthy and do not suffer from an inflammatory disease.


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## w_llewellyn (Dec 28, 2007)

And I am not sure you are actually reading my posts closely. It seems you are more interested in posting your next response instead of actually taking the time to look at what I am presenting here. I assume you are open minded enough to actually consider what I am saying, and I am not taking the time to answer you for nothing. I write this because you bring up things like platelet aggregation and vasoconstriction in your last post after I already posted a study showing this level of AA use has absolutely no effect on these biomarkers of health. I am not sure we are communicating if you aren't even addressing what I am posting..


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## w_llewellyn (Dec 28, 2007)

And I am sorry, but many of your comments are getting very difficult to respond to. I don't really understand what VIOXX and statins have to do with AA. All prescription drugs have risks that are balanced in the eyes of the FDA by their therapeutic value. This is entirely different than what the FDA regards as safe for use as a dietary ingredient; for use in baby food. And your comments about the industry, etc.. I don't know what to say except that it seems like your mind is already made up. You are not even addressing what I write when it is in contrary to one of your posts. You simply move on to the next angle. This is usually a sign the other party is not listening at all.

For what it is worth, you say that I simply haven't studied AA enough, yet I contend I have studied it far more extensively than most in this field. I'd wager I also studied it much more than you have. I highly doubt you can claim to have had literally hundreds if not thousands of studies on arachidonic acid littering your house for the past 6 or 7 years. It has been nearly my complete professional focus for the better part of a decade. So yes, I find your comment not only inaccurate, but a little condescending.


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## Nytol (Jul 16, 2005)

Interesting stuff.

What do you have to say Bill???


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Condescending?..................Maybe.

Is it warranted?.................Absolutely!!!!!!!!!!!

Tell you what, for every study you post on the benefits of AA, I will post 2 on the dangers of excess AA.

Deal?

Vioxx as well as the first Statins and many medications have killed people.

My point is this. FDA is no friend of the people it represents.

Is Vioxx and the early Statins in line with AA, no, of course not, but it kind of levels the playing field that your product is safe, doesn't it?

Guess you can't use that argument that the FDA says it is ok right?

I got news for you.

Many people (more than not) are insulin resistant, in fact it is over half the population in the US. Diabetes is on the rise and is the highest ever.

Due to our heavily processed foods and simple sugars this is going to get worse before it gets better, just watch and see. Oh, and even that elevates AA.......lol

Where is the deficiencies in AA in the bodybuilders diet?

This I would love to see big time, and the studies that are not slanted with a poor diet.

The body is awesome at trying to maintain homeostasis; it does not want to stay in anabolism.

And before we get too far ahead of ourselves, you seem to be putting X-Faxtor in the same category as anabolics...........Please spare me ok?

Don't insult the members of this board like that to push your inflammation.

Fact, vasoconstriction is a reality with AA, this is not good.

Insulin resistance is not good.

Together this is worse than the sum of one.

In light of the fact most people are insulin resistant, have too much inflammation in their bodies, and have far too high Omega 6 to 3 in their bodies, you still stand your ground?

Guess what?....................I am the guy to call foul here.

Your group of people that would be safe to take this product is very small, yet anyone can buy it and abuse it for that matter.

I am not listening?..................FYI, I don't miss much, yes I am very opinionated on this very issue, same as you if not more, but I don't have a financial gain in it either, as you do.

I could give you some reading that might open your closed eyes, I will answer any question you have, I will also swap you 2 for 1 on the studies of AA, this seems like a fair trade off to me.

But I am not condescending for no reason, I just disagree with you and whole heartedly, this is my passion if you have not noticed&#8230;&#8230;.lol

I know why you are here, to defend your product and probably got here by one of the search engines. That is cool; this shows me that others can do this search too. Not only that but now they can read the dangers of this poison while you defend it.

Your only posts are here to defend your product.

I am here to alert others of the dangers of things and do so with no monetary gain.

I enjoy a healthy, even heated dabate, and if I am wrong then I will be the first to admit it. I have no degrees, no medical experiance, nothing, but it does not take rocket science to figure this basic equation out.

Listen up ok?

Too much AA in the body is bad.

Prostate?

Love this topic, BPH happens to be an inflammatory problem, I am sure that AA is counterproductive to this.

Estrogen is the problem with prostate issues and we can have a debate on this one if you wish.

IF AA is hypertrophic as you say then BPH wont be too hard to swallow here eh?

So, you are saying that X-Factor is site specific as an anabolic responce in muscle tissue only, and not the prostate?

So, as you can see there is a very small percentage of the population that can take this product, yet anyone can have access to it.

Is that fair?

Is that right?

Now do you feel I am condesending?


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## w_llewellyn (Dec 28, 2007)

And might I add, since you clearly disagree with the FDA and all the studies and experts that came forth to support its GRAS classification. What kind of qualifications do you actually have, aside from reading a Barry Sears book? It says in your profile you are an airplane inspector. As an airplane inspector, how much of your average day is spent focusing on the physiological roles of AA in body?


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## w_llewellyn (Dec 28, 2007)

I am really trying to stay professional and hang in here, but it is very difficult given your posts. I am starting to realize you are like many self declared experts on the internet - no experience, little background on the subject besides a general interest in bodybuilding and access to pubmed, and a sense of "right" and duty to let everyone else know how smart and correct you are. You simply are not right, and I can see that no amount of time spent proving this to you is going to make a damn of difference. Your mind is made up, and I am a busy many with more things to do than repeat myself over and over again to someone that won't listen.. So this is possibly my last post.

As painful as it was, I read your post and believe these were the relevant points:

*The FDA doesn't care about Americans because it approved VIOXX*

No need to respond to this. There are no facts here.

*It is a Fact that Half the U.S. population is diabetic*

This is not true at all. Only 7% of the U.S. population is diabetic.

We still don't recommend people take AA if they are diabetic BTW, and sell mainly to a healthy weight training population that are generally weak candidates for adult onset (insulin resistant) diabetes.

*There are no AA deficiencies in Bodybuilders*

This depends on how you define deficiency. Training does lower AA levels. One study in the MD article you don't seem to want to read shows AA depletion. There are others I certainly am not going to take the time to find for you. Feel free to look into this yourself.

*The body is awesome at trying to maintain homeostasis*

Agreed. This says nothing about AA..

*Fact, vasoconstriction is a reality with AA*

No, facts need to be supported. It isn't a fact because you put those 4 letters in front of it. Case in point, you seem to be wrong about many things in your posts that have the word FACT in front of them.

Here, it is a fact that you are not correct. And for a third time you are ignoring all the safety data to the contrary.

*Insulin Resistance is not Good*

Agreed. Now show me that AA supplementation in healthy training people does anything of the sort. It doesn't. Since IL-6 is related to insulin resistance, I can and have shown you data suggesting it does the opposite.

*Most people are insulinresistant*

Again, very wrong. And also very ignorant of you to say, as you treat the readers like they must be sedentary couch potatoes instead of an active population, which due to lifestyle will likely never suffer from the ills of inactivity like obesity, metabolic syndrome, and adult onset diabetes.

*BPH happens to be an inflammatory problem, I am sure that AA is counterproductive to this.*

Yes, which is why you shouldn't take it if you have inflammation.

*you are saying that X-Factor is site specific as an anabolic responce in muscle tissue only, and not the prostate? *

AA is inert itself. Your body will convert it to anabolic substances as needed, mainly in skeletal muscle tissue. It doesn't simply make all your tissues and organs grow or inflame. You should know this. Taking it doesn't cause BPH either.

*Your group of people that would be safe to take this product is very small*

No, it isn't at all. Everyone very actively exercising is a candidate so long as they are healthy.


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

Damn that was a long read. 

Welcome to the board Bill!

Bill, I don't think Hackskii was trying to come across as being the smart guy, he has a passion as do you.

Also, is IQ specific to a certain job? Why did you look up his profile in the first place?

You were doing so well.....lol


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

Hell of a read guys, It is refreshing to see a good debate...

Bill stay around mate i know you are a busy guy but your input like everyone else's is valued....


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## w_llewellyn (Dec 28, 2007)

winger said:


> Damn that was a long read.
> 
> Welcome to the board Bill!
> 
> ...


IQ is a measure of intelligence, not knowledge. Hackskii may be a smart guy, but he does not have a deep understanding of AA metabolism and physiology. At best I believe he did read the Zone diet and a few pubmed abstracts. IQ doesn't automatically instill someone with the understanding of human physiology. It does give him the tools to learn though if he chooses, and I hope he does take the time to do that.

And again, from where I am sitting, Hackskii's comments about my work, my motives, my lack of compassion for my fellow man, and the industry I work in as a whole are very insulting. I am normally very composed but it is getting difficult to keep responding to this nitwit..


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## w_llewellyn (Dec 28, 2007)

I also am frustrated that I have spent so much time even answering this guy. This will be my 25th post in less than 24 hours. I spent a great deal of time yesterday to dig up medical abstracts to address just about every key point he has made, and they are simply ignored. Instead of addressing my responses on a technical level, I am met with things like "Look at Bill Philips, and EAS", "the industry is all about making money", and "the FDA doesn't care about people". This is no longer science, and I am not sure how to even communicate with this guy at this point. He says that he likes a scientific debate, but has prodced extremely little science on his side - just a lot of insults and emotion..

I suggest if Hackskii would like to continue this at all, he counter my safety data with specific data of his own. Where is his proof that with a normal heatlhy population:

AA supplementation increases insulin resistance

AA supplementation increases platelet aggregation

AA supplementation increases vasoconstriction or blood pressure

AA supplementation causes negative effects on the immune system

Exercise does not lower AA levels in the body

AA supplementation causes BPH or cancer

Bodybuilders are largely insulin resistant

I am not sure how closely you are reading, but I have presented strong evidence that is counter to every statement above. Hackskii is also contradicting not only me, but the FDA and every expert that presented data to the FDA supporting GRAS status on AA. I 'd like to see Hackskii prove with other medical papers that all the data I've shown is incorrect. And again, I'd like to see relevant models since that is what I have provided. In-vivo human supplementation studies, not emotional responses about how "bad" this or that must be. The data is there. AA has been extensively studies for decades. Put up or shut up I guess is what they say.


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## Tinytom (Sep 16, 2005)

What an excellent debate.

A lot of this stuff on fats goes over my head TBH.

I tried X-Factor about a year ago and did notice some results but not what it says on the tub (although I understand the importance of marketing)

I also didnt have any detrimental effects that my docs tests showed.

I think that the price over here in the UK makes it less appealing than in the USA.


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## pikey (Nov 3, 2007)

THS - thanks for letting me know this thread was running

I've been running x-factor for 4 weeks at 4 capsules per day, two in the morning two in the evening<O</O

I've noticed<O</O
​





Increased pump in the muscle<O</O
​




Increased pain when training<O</O
​




Increased post workout soreness<O</O
​




Feel like vomiting every workout<O</O
​




Not sleeping brilliantly <O</O
​



There could be other factors at work here but this is the only addition to my supplementation recently so by no means scientific but I put it down to the x-factor. My bodyweight has been stable - perhaps lost 2K but that is down to eating a less than ideal diet over xmas.<O</O

Must admit I find £50 per tub expensive and have been thinking of buying a few from the states as the usual price seems $50 per tub.
​


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

Hi mate nice to see you over here again looking forward to seeing you at the finals again in 2008...


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## pikey (Nov 3, 2007)

Hi Paul, Cheers mate same goes, going to get into the prep mode from 2nd Jan, should be fun as Andy is aiming to make an impact in class 2..


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

w_llewellyn said:


> *What gains/sides were seen at the effective level, and and lower/higher levels?*
> 
> At the peak level we generally see 1-2 pounds of lean mass gained per week.. 7-15 pounds per 50 day cycle.. 10 pounds give or take is very common provided everything else is in order. Sides at this dose are generally soreness (DOMS), oily skin (it slightly increases androgen sensitivity), and occasionally difficulty sleeping..


Say, what type of study was that?


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

I said this: "*Many people (more than not) are insulin resistant, in fact it is over half the population in the US*."

You said I said this: "*It is a Fact that Half the U.S. population is diabetic*"

I didn't say that and you know it, twisting around my words to make me appear wrong is laughable. This does not help your arguments at all; in fact make you look childish. Also attacking me does nothing towards defending your posts and only tells me that a healthy debate will only result into character attacks.

I never said I was an expert on anything; in fact I gave my credentials to keep the debate on topic.

Bodybuilders do not have deficiencies of AA (as you claim), there are tests to determine this (SIP) and for your information there is an excess in the typical American diet. If you are referring to low fat diets, or vegetarianism then ok, that is a whole different group. Typical American diets are low in fish, inflammation is high, and the balance of excess AA in the diet is too high, not to mention too many Omega 6's and not enough Omega 3's. I bring this up as you seem to be sheltered on the ratio's that promote inflammation, or are closing your eyes to what is going on (and you talk about me not listening, you hypocrite. :doh.

Bodybuilders eat red meat and eggs and more than the typical American diet in these macro's.

Can asthmatics supplement AA?

How about auto-immune disease can they supplement AA?

How about people with diabetes or people that are insulin resistant?

How about arthritic or rheumatoid people?

Men with BPH?

Bodybuilders that use insulin?

People with hyperinsulinemia?

People with high fat diets?

People that eat a lot of eggs and steak?

How about guys that suffer from too much inflammation like people that suffer from plantar fasciitis or us weight lifters that constantly have joint aches from over 30 years of lifting?

What about people with colitis?

How about people with high cholesterol?

How about people on Statins which are the only drugs known to increase AA production?

What about people that have a high GI diet and eat a lot of processed foods?

I can go on and could make a very large list of people that should not take this product.

Inflammation hinders recovery and injury, sure taking anti-inflammatory drugs help heal injury to slow inflammatory response and do hinder muscle gain.

You suggest that white willow bark not be taken, great, you didn't say why but as with aspirin, ibuprophen, and even fish oils, this kills AA's response to PG-2 which is the pro-inflammation prostaglandin and would render your product useless.

Again there is no shortage of AA in the typical American diet, and certainly not in the bodybuilders diet. So what if AA gets used with exercise, does this mean that there is a need to supplement this?...............NO!

In fact, you are compromising health for muscular size, and making money doing it. Shame on you Bill.

Hell, you are making it out that you are a humanitarian and I am evil. Truth is you are only defending your product to line your wallet. All your posts on this board are to attack me and or defend your product, you are no better than all the other supplement companies that own muscle magazines to sell their useless products.

I have PM'd you more than once on messo board and you never PM'd me back.

Now you seem not too busy to bash my character?

I have nothing to lose here, but I will expose you for what you are a profiteer.

Your claim of 1 to 2 pounds a week is a joke, hell even Deca wont do that.

That and your suggestion of all of it being keep able, is only an exaggeration to defend your product. Your MD article means nothing to me coming from a magazine that is owned by TwinLabs.

And this is not biased?

Dude, why in the hell would I even read that when it is clearly slanted to endorse products that it advertises? That is like asking my wife if I am handsome, her answer is obviously yes. Not to mention much of the research is done by supplement companies and this in itself is biased.

Retail price of this inflammatory substance is $70.00. Great, I am going to spend that much money on an AA product when I can get that out of a juicy steak and egg breakfast? The amount of arachidonic acid in a single yolk is roughly 1/9th of a gram.

Hell, I could have a couple of tablespoons of corn oil and skyrocket AA in my body for pennies&#8230;..lol

What is so special about supplementing your AA instead of food?

Longevity in weight lifting comes from the ability to train at optimal levels with no injuries. Even slightly elevated levels of AA in athlete's shows to reduce training ability by significant amounts due to joint inflammation, and if you know bodybuilding at all you will note joint issues such as arthritis are the biggest complaint. I for one suffer from this and take fish oils to lower inflammation in my body. I would never take this product.

Again, if you have a good diet, eating meats, eggs and even dairy, you won't need to supplement AA.

If anything it should be kept in check, with the American diet high in AA and low in Omega 3's inflammation is an issue. Free range eggs have 19 times the Omega 3 in them than store bought eggs, hell our cattle is not even free range and the Omega 3's in the American diet is low and that if anything needs to be supplemented.

Again Americans are about 1/10 to 1/25 of Omega 3's to Omega 6's. Optimum levels of Omega 3 to 6 is 1/1 to ¼, adding in AA only pushes this further out of whack. As you know Omega 3's aid in good eicosanoid production and elevates PG-1 and PG-3 which are both anti-inflammatory prostaglandins. The SIP test that is done here in America only supports that most people have too much AA in their diets. AA is an Omega 6, sadly we have too much Omega 6's in our diets due to vegetable oils and too low Omega 3's due to the free range animals are almost nonexistent, and we dont eat enough oily fish.

So, Omega 6 is too high, inflammation is high; adding AA to the diet is downright dangerous.

Not to mention that X-Factor is accessible to everyone that has a credit card or cash, I am sure there are not any disclaimers on the bottle. You know how gullible the kids and adults are, take these pills and grow muscles. *I am sure Bill you have no problem selling your product to the non target groups to line your wallet.* So much for "YOUR" credibility. Hell, you even push this poision in your book. Shame on you Bill, you remind me of another Bill, that endorced another worthless product for monitary gain.

Did you know that the highest concentration of prostaglandins in the mans body is in the prostate?

Hence the name prost"a"glandin. If I said fish oils helped me urinate harder with better flow, and they raise PG-1 in the body which is an anti-inflammation prostaglandin, and keeps PG-2 at bay which is an inflammation prostaglandin, why in the hell would I compromise this by adding AA into my diet which would elevate PG-2 and cause excess inflammation to my body, and the prostate?

This could very well compromise my healthy prostate due to excess PG-2.

In a study Omega 6 fatty acid when consumed in excess amounts, promote the growth of prostate tumor cells. Omega 6 fatty acids (arachidonic acid) were also found to be higher in the brains of many rats that showed signs of depression.

I would recommend you read more on eicosanoids, good and bad, AA elevates bad eicosanoid production, and I can tell you that you won't be able to discredit that statement unless you miss quote it like you did above.

High AA levels are heavily associated with depression, Chronic Fatigue, Sleep difficulties (and as you know most recovery comes from good sleep) not to mention is the building block of bad eicosanoids.

Fish oils that are high in DHA are known to help with depression, fat loss among other positive things.

*You will like this snip:*

Arachidonic acid is the building block for PGJ2. This eicosanoid is a PPAR gamma agonist, which has been shown to stimulate the transformation of stem cells in the adipose tissue to differentiate into new fat cells. The adipose tissue is one of the few tissues that can rapidly grow new cells with the proper hormonal stimulate. This is one of the primary reasons why increased accumulation of arachidonic acid in the fat cells causes obesity.

Could the above the reason why the 1 to 2 pounds of muscle is gained?.......lol


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## thestudbeast (Jul 20, 2007)

Well Hack's I think he answers most questions well, you know we have differing views on this topic......................

but I bet he won't answer why his product is better than consuming some liver and egg yolks each day (both of which are high in AA).

I think the key point that came out of out discusion over wether a BB could be defficient in AA was that modern food production means high AA in foods where there should be none (salmon for example). Still I think it is *possible* to be difficient if you train.

Still I stand to be corrected.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Snip......

Arachidonic Acid: How it Creates Disease

However, the natural and more likely chemical conversion of dietary LA will go on to be converted into Arachidonic acid, a 20 carbon long chain fatty acid that is also found in animal products, specifically red meat, dairy and eggs. Arachidonic acid (AA) will lead to PG2 series of chemical mediators, which are pro-inflammatory, contribute to platelet aggregation and increased constriction of the vessels. The platelet aggregation and vessels changes if also coupled with a poor diet- which would favour low nutrients and high blood lipids- can contribute to an increased CVD risk. AA can also create thromboxanes of the 2 series, specifically thromboxane A2 (TXA2) which is a more potent vasoconstrictor and promotes platelet aggregation. In addition, eicosanoid metabolites from AA such as prostaglandin E2 (PGE2), leukotriene B4, 12-hydroxyeicosatetraenoic acid and TXA2 have all been positively linked to carcinogenesis.

The main symptoms associated with too much AA or sensitivity to it are:

Chronic Fatigue

Poor or restless sleep

difficulty awakening or grogginess upon awakening

brittle hair

thin, brittle nails

constipation

Dry, flaking skin

Minor rashes


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## Stomp (Nov 10, 2007)

hackskii said:


> Snip......
> 
> Arachidonic Acid: How it Creates Disease
> 
> ...


I am not a scientist and I have only used one cycle (2 bottles) of X-factor. However, I noticed none of those symptoms and some were just the opposite:

- Somewhat greasier skin and some minor acne

- A bit more hornier that usual

- Restfull sleep, no fatigue whatsoever

I can not comment about gains because I changed my training routine drastically just before I started the cycle which was a mistake. I will do another cycle starting in the end of January and I will then post my experiences.


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## w_llewellyn (Dec 28, 2007)

> In fact, you are compromising health for muscular size, and making money doing it. Shame on you Bill.
> 
> Hell, you are making it out that you are a humanitarian and I am evil. Truth is you are only defending your product to line your wallet. All your posts on this board are to attack me and or defend your product, you are no better than all the other supplement companies that own muscle magazines to sell their useless products.
> 
> ...


I asked you to post medical references showing that the supplementation of AA in humans does any of what you say it does, and you have failed to do so. This response from you is very long and filled only with emotional speculation, supposition, and personal insults about my character and motives. I am not going to take the time to respond to these kinds of personal insults and comments.

Please, get back on topic and find relevant in-vivo references showing that the supplementation of AA has caused any of the things you suggested here. There have been dozens of supplementation studies on AA. If what you say is true you should be able to find evidence for it very easily.


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## w_llewellyn (Dec 28, 2007)

hackskii said:


> Snip......
> 
> Arachidonic Acid: How it Creates Disease
> 
> However, the natural and more likely chemical conversion of dietary LA will go on to be converted into Arachidonic acid, a 20 carbon long chain fatty acid that is also found in animal products, specifically red meat, dairy and eggs. Arachidonic acid (AA) will lead to PG2 series of chemical mediators, which are pro-inflammatory, contribute to platelet aggregation and increased constriction of the vessels. The platelet aggregation and vessels changes if also coupled with a poor diet- which would favour low nutrients and high blood lipids- can contribute to an increased CVD risk. AA can also create thromboxanes of the 2 series, specifically thromboxane A2 (TXA2) which is a more potent vasoconstrictor and promotes platelet aggregation. In addition, eicosanoid metabolites from AA such as prostaglandin E2 (PGE2), leukotriene B4, 12-hydroxyeicosatetraenoic acid and TXA2 have all been positively linked to carcinogenesis.


This appears to be the only attempt at providing some medical reference. Again, it fails to be in a study where they actually gave AA to a human. My counter for it is a simple supplementation study where they gave 1,500mg of AA daily for 50 days to human subjects. For the record, this is officially the 4th time you have ignored this information and tried to present it as fact yet again.

The effect of dietary arachidonic acid on platelet function, platelet fatty acid composition, and blood coagulation in humans.

Nelson GJ, Schmidt PC, Bartolini G, Kelley DS, Kyle D.

Western Human Nutrition Research Center, ARS, USDA, San Francisco, California 94129, USA.

Arachidonic acid (AA) is the precursor of thromboxane and prostacyclin, two of the most active compounds related to platelet function. The effect of dietary AA on platelet function in humans is not understood although a previous study suggested dietary AA might have adverse physiological consequences on platelet function. Here normal healthy male volunteers (n = 10) were fed diets containing 1.7 g/d of AA for 50 d. The control diet contained 210 mg/d of AA. Platelet aggregation in the platelet-rich plasma was determined using ADP, collagen, and AA. No statistical differences could be detected between the aggregation before and after consuming the high-AA diet. The prothrombin time, partial thromboplastin time, and the antithrombin III levels in the subjects were determined also. There were no statistically significant differences in these three parameters when the values were compared before and after they consumed the high-AA diet. The in vivo bleeding times also did not show a significant difference before and after the subjects consumed the high-AA diet. Platelets exhibited only small changes in their AA content during the AA feeding period. *The results from this study on blood clotting parameters and in vitro platelet aggregation suggest that adding 1.5 g/d of dietary AA for 50 d to a typical Western diet containing about 200 mg of AA produces no observable physiological changes in blood coagulation and thrombotic tendencies in healthy, adult males compared to the unsupplemented diet. *Thus, moderate intakes of foods high in AA have few effects on blood coagulation, platelet function, or platelet fatty acid composition.


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## thestudbeast (Jul 20, 2007)

thestudbeast said:


> Well Hack's I think he answers most questions well, you know we have differing views on this topic......................
> 
> *but I bet he won't answer why his product is better than consuming some liver and egg yolks each day (both of which are high in AA).*
> 
> ...


Bump on my question.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Arachidonic acid is a precursor to a number of eicsanoids (e.g.,

thromboxane A2, prostacylcin, and leukotriene B4). These eicosanoids

have been shown to have beneficial and adverse effects in the onset of

platelet aggregation, hemodynamics, and coronary vascular tone. EPA has

been shown to compete with the biosynthesis of n-6 eicosanoids and is the

precursor of several n-3 eicosanoids (e.g., thromboxane A3, prostaglandin

I3, and leukotriene B5), resulting in a less thrombotic and atherogenic

state (Kinsella et al., 1990).

Series 2 - prostaglandins are made from arachidonic acid (AA).

One member PGE12, acts like PGE1, helping to keep platelets from sticking together, but another called

PGE2 causes the following:

1- PGE2 promotes platelet aggregation, which is the first step in clot formation

2- PGE2 induces the kidney to retain salt, leading to water retention and high blood pressure.

3- It causes inflammation. PGE2 opposes PGE1 function. It is a "bad guy" Prostaglandin.

PGE1 (GLA as the precursor) inhibits the release of AA from cell membranes where AA is stored - as long

as AA remains in membranes, it cannot be converted into series 2 prostaglandins. This prevents the bad

effects of PGE2 from occurring.

Note: for added protection from the damaging effects of PG2 prostaglandins, the human body converts

DGLA only slowly to AA. Since animal products contain AA, however, a high meat diet works against this

protection, making people who consume diets rich in animal products more prone to cardiovascular,

inflammatory, and kidney diseases.

Partially hydrogenated oils are rich in trans fatty acids which increase

the inflammatory effects of arachidonic acid PG2.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Here is some reading for you:

http://www.imagination-institute.com/The%20Cancer%20Diet.htm

Not really scientific but&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;

*This Omega 6 Fatty Acid Triggers a Prostate Cancer Cell Growth Cascade*

Scientists have found that a common omega 6 fatty acid known as arachidonic acid signals increased growth of prostate cancer cells in culture.

*Arachidonic acid is found in most vegetable seed oils--especially corn oil. *

Also of interest: The introduction of a non-steroidal inflammatory to the culture kept the growth in check.

This has triggered a further study with laboratory animals to see if increased amounts of arachidonic acid causes increased tumor growth in them.

*Researchers with the study pointed out that an increase in the use of corn oil in the US in the last 60 years parallels an increase in prostate cancer incidence.*

Recommendation:

Decrease the corn oil use, and substitute olive oil whenever possible. Taking an aspirin a day may not hurt while more research is gathered--other studies have already shown that daily NSAID use decreases risk.

*Fish oils in cancer prevention*

STOCKHOLM, SWEDEN. Several test tube (in vitro) and animal experiments have clearly shown that the long-chain omega-3 polyunsaturated fatty acids (PUFAs) eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA) and docosahexaenoic acid (DHA), the main components of fish oil, help inhibit the promotion and progression of cancer. Their beneficial effect is particularly pronounced in hormone-dependent cancers such as breast and prostate cancer. Some, but not all, epidemiologic studies have also found a beneficial effect.

Researchers at Sweden's famous Karolinska Institutet have just published a comprehensive review of the current knowledge regarding the role of PUFAs in carcinogenesis. *They conclude that omega-3 PUFAs are protective against cancer progression, while omega-6 PUFAs, notably arachidonic acid and its derivatives, help promote the growth of cancer*. They believe the n-3 PUFAs exert their beneficial effects in several different ways:

•	They suppress the synthesis of pro-inflammatory eicosanoids from arachidonic acid and thus produce an overall anti-inflammatory effect.

•	They positively affect gene expression or the activities of signal transduction molecules involved in the control of cell growth, differentiation apoptosis, angiogenesis and metastasis.

•	They suppress excessive production of nitrogen oxide (NO) during chronic inflammation and thereby help prevent DNA damage and impaired DNA repair.

•	They decrease estrogen production and thus reduce the estrogen-stimulated growth of hormone- dependent cancer cells.

•	Fish oils improve insulin sensitivity and cell membrane fluidity and may help prevent metastasis through these effects.

Free radicals and reactive oxygen species produced in cells may attack PUFAs resulting in the formation of more free radicals, specifically hydroperoxides. The hydroperoxides, in turn, may damage DNA ultimately leading to cancer. These effects have indeed been observed in some in vitro experiments, but not in actual human beings. Many studies have shown that fish oils actually retard aging and suppress so- called free radical diseases such as atherosclerosis and cancer. Other studies have shown that a daily EPA + DHA intake in excess of 2.3 grams decreases the production of superoxide, a potent cancer promoter. At least one in vitro and one animal experiment have observed that EPA + DHA kill human breast cancer cells via the formation of hydroperoxides, but that this effect is strongly inhibited by vitamin E. Thus, at this point, it is not entirely clear whether EPA + DHA exert part of their beneficial effect through an increase or a decrease in the production of free radicals and reactive oxygen species. The researchers recommend more work in this area, but emphasize that the major benefits of fish oils probably are associated with their ability to inhibit the synthesis of arachidonic acid-derived, pro-inflammatory eicosanoids. The Swedish researchers also confirm that fatty, cold-water fish are the best sources of EPA and DHA and that the conversion rate of alpha-linolenic acid (flaxseed oil) to EPA is very low, even in healthy humans - probably in the order of 2-5%.

Larsson, SC, et al. Dietary long-chain n-3 fatty acids for the prevention of cancer: a review of potential mechanisms. American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, Vol. 79, June 2004, pp. 935-45

*Colon cancer progression associated with fatty acid status*

BADALONA, SPAIN. Several epidemiological studies have shown that high fat diets are associated with an increased risk of colon cancer. Other studies have shown that diets rich in fish and fish oils are protective against colon cancer. Spanish medical researchers have just released the results of a major study aimed at determining if and how polyunsaturated fatty acids play a role in the progression of adenomas (benign polyps) to full-blown colon cancer. The study involved 27 patients with sporadic benign polyps of the rectum or colon, 22 patients with cancer of the colon or rectum, and 12 subjects with a normal colon. The researchers measured the fatty acid profile of blood plasma and biopsy samples of the lining of the colon from both diseased and normal areas. They found no differences between polyp patients and patients with a normal colon as far as plasma profile and normal colon lining profile was concerned. However, there was a significant difference between the fatty acid profile of normal colon tissue and diseased colon tissue in adenoma patients. Diseased lining tissue was found to have higher levels of linoleic acid, dihomogammalinolenic acid, and eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA) and lower levels of alpha-linolenic and arachidonic acids. There was also a very significant stepwise reduction in EPA content of diseased colon lining from the benign polyp stage to the most severe colon cancer stage.

The researchers conclude that there are significant changes in the levels of n-3 and n-6 fatty acids early on in the sequence leading from benign polyps to colon cancer and speculate that these changes might participate in the progression to colon cancer. They recommend further work to investigate the benefits of long-term dietary manipulation in view of the finding that low-dose fish oil supplementation normalizes the cell proliferation pattern in patients with sporadic polyps.

Fernandez-Banares, F., et al. Changes of the mucosal n3 and n6 fatty acid status occur early in the colorectal adenoma-carcinoma sequence. Gut, Vol. 38, 1996, pp. 254-59

*Fish oil supplementation helps prevent colon cancer*

ROME, ITALY. The presence of benign polyps (adenomas) is a significant risk factor for full-blown colon or rectal cancer. Animal studies have shown that the omega-3 polyunsaturated fatty acids, eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA) and docosahexaenoic acid (DHA) inhibit the development of colon cancer and epidemiological studies have shown that fish consumption is inversely proportional with the incidence of colon cancer. Encouraged by these findings, researchers at the Catholic University of Rome set out to determine if fish oil supplementation would inhibit the development of benign polyps, the precursors of colon cancer.

Their study involved 34 men and 26 women who had just undergone surgery to remove benign polyps from their colon. The patients were divided into 4 groups. Group 1 was supplemented with 1.4 grams of EPA and 1.1 grams of DHA per day, group 2 with 2.7 grams of EPA and 2.4 grams of DHA, group 3 with 4.1 grams of EPA and 3.6 grams of DHA while group 4 received placebo capsules containing mainly olive oil. Biopsy samples from the lower part of the colon lining and blood samples were taken and analyzed at the start of the trial and 30 days later at the end of the supplementation period. Overall, patients in the fish oil groups experienced a significant decline in the number of abnormal cells in their colon lining as compared to members of the placebo group. Further analysis showed that the reduction in the number of abnormal cells was limited to patients who had a large number of abnormal cells at the beginning of the trial. The researchers also noted a very significant increase in EPA and DHA levels and a significant drop in arachidonic acid level in the biopsy samples from the fish oil supplemented patients.

A separate 6-month trial involving 15 patients taking 1.4 grams per day of EPA and 1.1 grams per day of DHA also showed a significant drop in the number of abnormal colon lining cells. The researchers conclude that low-dose supplementation with fish oils inhibit the proliferation of abnormal cells (a precursor to polyps) in patients at risk for colon cancer and that this effect can be maintained with long- term treatment. They caution that it may be advisable to increase vitamin E intake during fish oil administration.

Anti, Marcello, et al. Effects of different doses of fish oil on rectal cell proliferation in patients with sporadic colonic adenomas. Gastroenterology, Vol. 107, December 1994, pp. 1709-18

Several studies have implicated the role of dietary fatty acids, especially arachidonic acid, in prostate cancer formation and progression (1, 2). Three types of enzymes [cyclooxygenases, epoxygenases (cytochrome P450), and lipoxygenases] can metabolize this acid. Most cancer-related research has been done on cytochromes and cyclooxygenases, but much less is known about lipoxygenases. Human lipoxygenases (~670 amino acids) are divided into several major categories [5-lipoxygenase (5-LOX), 8-LOX, 11-LOX, 12-LOX, and 15-LOX] depending on the outcome of arachidonic acid peroxidation (3). A growing body of evidence points to the crucial role of 12-LOX involvement in prostate cancer.

*Arachidonic acid is metabolized by 12-LOX to 12(S)-hydroxyeicosatetraenoic acid [12(S)-HETE], and this biologically active metabolite has been reported to be potentially involved in prostate cancer development by modulating cell proliferation *(1, 9, 10). 12(S)-HETE has also been shown to play a significant role in the processes of tumor-induced angiogenesis and metastasis. 12(S)-HETE possesses mitogenic properties for microvascular endothelial cells (11) and can promote endothelial cell migration (12). Surface expression of integrin {alpha}vß3, a tumor-induced angiogenic vasculature-related endothelial cell integrin, is up-regulated by 12(S)-HETE, promoting integrin translocation from intracellular pools (13). Furthermore, 12(S)-HETE can induce endothelial cell cytoskeletal rearrangement, resulting in endothelial cell retraction (14), a necessary step for tumor cell extravasations. In addition, 12(S)-HETE can stimulate tumor cell motility (15) and augment the invasive potential of AT2.1 rat prostate tumor cells (16). Through a protein kinase C-dependent pathway, 12-HETE has been reported to modulate the release of the lysosomal enzyme cathepsin B in MCF10AneoT human mammary carcinoma cells and murine B16a melanoma cells (10). Our own studies show that P-12-LOX overexpression in human prostate cancer (PC3) cells promotes the increased accumulation of 12(S)-HETE and vascular endothelial growth factor in culture media, leading to constitutive extracellular signal-regulated kinase 1/2 phosphorylation. This process is driven by 12(S)-HETE that stimulate extracellular signal-regulated kinase 1/2 phosphorylation via a pertussis toxin-sensitive G-protein-coupled receptor and mitogen-activated protein/extracellular signal regulated kinase kinase (17).

*Arachidonic acid is metabolized by 12-LOX to 12(S)-hydroxyeicosatetraenoic acid [12(S)-HETE], and this biologically active metabolite has been reported to be potentially involved in prostate cancer development*

The effect of prolactin on phospholipid metabolism in the prolactin-dependent rat lymphoma cell line Nb2 was investigated in cells prelabeled with [3H]arachidonic acid or [3H]ethanolamine. Prolactin (20 ng/ml) caused (a) a 20-60% loss of radiolabeled phosphatidylethanolamine within 0.5 to 2 min, ( B) a loss of [3H]ethanolamine-labeled phosphatidylethanolamine from crude membranes, © a rapid accumulation of [3H]phosphoethanolamine and [3H]ethanolamine, and (d) a transient increase (15 s to 2 min) in prostaglandin F2 alpha and E2. Arachidonic acid (1-2 micrograms/ml) induced Nb2 cell growth but prostaglandin F2 alpha, E2, ethanolamine, and phosphoethanolamine did not. Prostaglandin E2 inhibited while prostaglandin F2 alpha enhanced growth in the presence of prolactin or arachidonic acid. These results suggest that stimulation of Nb2 cell growth by prolactin is linked to activation of a phosphatidylethanolamine-specific phospholipase C. Arachidonic acid and prostaglandin F2 alpha may participate in regulating the mitogenic action of prolactin.

Study links brain fatty acid levels to depression

Main Category: Depression News

Article Date: 26 May 2005 - 0:00 PDT

A group of researchers from Israel has discovered that rats exhibiting the signs of depression have increased levels of the omega-6 fatty acid, arachidonic acid, in their brains. The details of their findings appear in the June issue of the Journal of Lipid Research, an American Society for Biochemistry and Molecular Biology journal.

During recent years, omega-3 fatty acids have enjoyed increased popularity as numerous studies have shown that supplementing diets with fish oil (a natural source of this polyunsaturated fatty acid) does everything from reducing the risk of heart disease to preventing arthritis. There is also evidence that depression may be associated with a dietary deficiency in omega-3 fatty acids. This "phospholipid hypothesis" of depression has been supported by research showing that omega-3 fatty acid concentration in the blood of depressed patients is lower than that in control patients.

"The "phospholipid hypothesis" of depression postulates that decreased omega-3 fatty acid intake, and hence, perhaps decreased brain omega-3 fatty acid content, could be responsible for the disease," explains Dr. Pnina Green of Tel Aviv University. "In humans, because of high dietary variability and the obvious inability to examine brain tissue, the theory is backed up mainly by indirect evidence. The availability of the Flinders Sensitive Line rat, an animal model of depression, overcomes both these obstacles."

In the Journal of Lipid Research study, Dr. Green in collaboration with Dr Gal Yadid of Bar-Ilan University, Ramat Gan, used the Flinders Sensitive Line rats to investigate the link between omega-3 fatty acids and depression. They examined the brains of the depressed rats and compared them with brains from normal rats. Surprisingly, they found that the main difference between the two types of rats was in omega-6 fatty acid levels and not omega-3 fatty acid levels. Specifically, they discovered that brains from rats with depression had higher concentrations of arachidonic acid, a long-chain unsaturated metabolite of omega-6 fatty acid.

Arachidonic acid is found throughout the body and is essential for the proper functioning of almost every body organ, including the brain. It serves a wide variety of purposes, from being a purely structural element in phospholipids to being involved in signal transduction and being a substrate for a host of derivatives involved in second messenger function.

"The finding that in the depressive rats the omega-3 fatty acid levels were not decreased, but arachidonic acid was substantially increased as compared to controls is somewhat unexpected," admits Dr. Green. "But the finding lends itself nicely to the theory that increased omega-3 fatty acid intake may shift the balance between the two fatty acid families in the brain, since it has been demonstrated in animal studies that increased omega-3 fatty acid intake may result in decreased brain arachidonic acid."

Although far less attention has been paid to dietary requirements for omega-6 fatty acids, which can be found in most edible oils and meat, perhaps in the future depression may be controlled by increasing omega-3 fatty acid intake and decreasing omega-6 fatty acid intake.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

*Omega-6 fats cause prostate tumors to grow twice as fast*

Fatty acids such as those found in corn oil turn on genes that stimulate tumor growth

Omega-6 fatty acids--such as those found in corn oil--caused human prostate tumors in cell culture to grow twice as quickly as tumors to which omega-6 fats had not been added, according to a study conducted at the San Francisco VA Medical Center.

An omega-6 fatty acid known as *arachidonic acid turns on a gene signaling pathway that leads directly to tumor growth*, according to principal investigator Millie Hughes-Fulford, PhD, director of the Laboratory of Cell Growth at SFVAMC and scientific advisor to the U.S. Under Secretary for Health for the Department of Veterans Affairs.

The results of the study are published in the February 1 issue of Cancer Research.

"After we added omega-6 fatty acids to the growth medium in the dish, and only omega-6, we observed that tumors grew twice as fast as those without omega-6," recounts Hughes-Fulford, who is also an adjunct professor of medicine at the University of California, San Francisco.

"Investigating the reasons for this rapid growth, we discovered that the omega-6 was turning on a dozen inflammatory genes that are known to be important in cancer. We then asked what was turning on those genes, and found that omega-6 fatty acids actually turn on a signal pathway called PI3-kinase that is known to be a key player in cancer," she adds.

Hughes-Fulford says the results are significant because of the high level of omega-6 fatty acids in the modern American diet, mostly in the form of vegetable seed oils such as corn oil--over 25 times the level of beneficial omega-3 fatty acids, which are found in canola oil, fish, and green vegetables. She notes that over the last 60 years, the rate of prostate cancer in the U.S. has increased steadily along with intake of omega-6, suggesting a possible link between diet and prostate cancer.

The study results build on earlier work in which Fulford and her research team found that arachidonic acid stimulated the production of an enzyme known as cPLA-2, which in turn caused a chain of biochemical reactions that led to tumor growth. In the current paper, the researchers have "followed that biochemical cascade upstream to its source," Hughes-Fulford says. "These fatty acids are initiating the signal pathway that begins the whole cascade."

Hughes-Fulford and her fellow researchers also found that if they added a non-steroidal antiflammatory or a PI3K inhibitor to the growth media, interrupting the signal pathway, the genes did not get turned on and increased tumor cell growth did not take place.

Currently, Hughes-Fulford is conducting a study in which research animals are fed diets with different levels of omega-3 and omega-6 fatty acids, "to see how the tumors grow in animals."

Hughes-Fulford says that her study results have directly influenced her own diet. "I'm not a physician, and do not tell people how to eat, but I can tell you what I do in my own home," she says. "I use only canola oil and olive oil. We do not eat deep-fried foods."

And before you suggest that AA does not cause cancer but speeds it up, remember, every man if he gets old enough will suffer from BPH, prostatitis, or prostate cancer.

Prostate cancer is a very slow growing cancer, many men die of natural causes long before dying of prostate cancer.

Yah, I am really looking at speeding things along for a couple of pounds that accompany side effects.

I can find more studies, but It only took a few minutes to find those and there are many more that suggest AA is in abundance and not to be supplemented by any logical thinking person.

Eicosanoids and their sub class prostaglandin research are fairly new.

There is no deficiencies of AA in the typical bodybuilding diet and just because it lowers AA with exercise, that is actually a good thing.

Tipping the balance of bad Eicosanoids using AA, which is already in abundance due to vegetable oils and a typical American diet, is playing with fire.

No study to my knowledge has been given on this topic yet, it is going to happen but later on.

Oh and Bill, my name is not this "guy" or "that guy", a simple look at my siggy will say my name as Scott


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## Tall (Aug 14, 2007)

hackskii said:


> Omega-6 fats cause prostate tumors to grow twice as fast...


Are you saying cut down on Olive Oil Hacks...? Thats high in Omega 6 (Appologies if I've misread...)


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

TH&S said:


> Are you saying cut down on Olive Oil Hacks...? Thats high in Omega 6 (Appologies if I've misread...)


No need to worry about olive oil, it is mostly an Omega 9 EFA, in fact it is a great thing to add more cals to your diet if you are bulking:

Olive oil, for instance, is 77% monounsaturated fat, 9% polyunsaturated fat, and 14% saturated fat.

Fatty Acids

Oleic- 76.7% (Omega-9)

Palmitic- 10.5% (Omega 6)

Linoleic- 6.6% (Omega 3)

Linolenic- 0.7% (omega 3)


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## Chris4Pez1436114538 (Sep 3, 2007)

:bump: for later reading


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

*Theory*

If you think back to the type of diet humans evolved to eat (cave-man diet), it provided a much more balanced mix of n-3 and n-6 fatty acids. Over the last century, modern diets have come to rely heavily on fats derived from vegetable oils (n-6) - bringing the ratio of n-6 to n-3 fatty acids from the cave-man's ratio of 1:1 to the modern-day range of 20-30:1 - yikes! The unbalanced intake of high n-6 fatty acids and low n-3 fatty acids sets the stage for increases in blood viscosity (and tendency of blood to clot), vasoconstriction (and elevated blood pressure) and inflammatory processes (involved in everything from heart health to pain levels). Fatty acids of the n-3 variety, however, have opposing biological effects to the n-6 fatty acids - meaning that a higher intake of n-3 oils can deliver anti-inflammatory, anti-thrombotic and vasodilatory effects that can lead to benefits in terms of heart disease, hypertension, diabetes, and a wide variety of inflammatory conditions such as rheumatoid arthritis and ulcerative colitis. In the body, linoleic acid (n-6) is metabolized in the body to arachidonic acid - a precursor to specific "bad" eicosanoids which can promote vasoconstriction and elevated blood pressure. Linolenic acid (n-3), however, is metabolized in the body to EPA (eicosapentaenoic acid) and DHA (docosahexaenoic acid). EPA serves as the precursor to prostaglandin E3, which may have vasodilatory properties on blood vessels - effects which can counteract the vasoconstriction caused by n-6 fatty acids. DHA has been associated with optimal brain development in infants.

*Scientific Support*

Recent studies have shown consumption of linolenic acid and other n-3 fatty acids to offer protection against heart disease and heart attacks. This effect is thought to be mediated through the synthesis of eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA) and docosahexaenoic acid (DHA). Fish oils contains large amounts of both EPA and DHA and the majority of studies in this area have used various concentrations of fish oil supplements to demonstrate the health benefits of these essential fatty acids. For example, one gram of menhaden oil (a common source) provides about 300 mg of these fatty acids. EPA is known to induce an antithrombotic (clot-preventing) effect through its inhibition of platelet cyclooxygenase (which converts arachidonic acid to thromboxane A2) and the "less-sticky" platelets that result. Fish oil, and its high content of EPA and DHA, may also protect against heart disease through an anti-inflammatory effect (via reduced cytokine production and/or increased nitric oxide production in the endothelium). *Consumption of broiled or baked fish, 2 or more times per week, is associated with a 40% reduction in risk of rheumatoid arthritis. In one study, 8 weeks of omega-3 supplementation (9-10 grams per day) resulted in significant improvements in joint pain and stiffness among arthritis sufferers.* Flaxseed, a rich plant source of omega-3 fatty acids, has been shown to lower both systolic and diastolic blood pressure (1-2 tablespoons daily). Epidemiological studies have shown that subjects with high intakes of linolenic acid (n-3) have been shown to have a 50% reduced risk of heart disease - which may be partly due to beneficial effects on blood pressure, cholesterol levels, blood clotting and heart rhythm. Indeed, omega-3 fatty acids are known to reduce thromboxane activity, which could explain the benefits of omega-3's in reducing platelet aggregation (blood clotting) and blood vessel constriction. There is also some evidence that omega-3 fatty acids from fish oil and flaxseed may help improve insulin sensitivity, modulate lipid metabolism and combat both mild depression and Attention Deficit and Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD). Although the data is far from clear, it is known that omega-3 fatty acids are concentrated in the brain and that children and adults suffering from depression and/or ADHD typically show sub-optimal blood levels of essential fatty acids. In addition, population studies suggest that a high consumption of fish (rich in omega-3's) may be related to a lower risk of depression, including postpartum depression. Mothers pass large amounts of essential fatty acids to their babies during the last 3 months of fetal brain development and via breast milk - so much that new mothers have only half the normal blood levels of omega-3 fatty acids and nursing mothers may have even lower levels. *A recent expert scientific advisory board at the National Institutes of Health highlighted the importance of a balanced intake of n-6 and n-3 fatty acids to reduce the adverse effects of elevated arachidonic acid (a metabolic product of n-6 metabolism). The committee recommended a reduction in the intake of n-6 fatty acids (linoleic acid) and an increase in n-3 (linolenic acid, DHA, EPA) intake. *Adequate intake recommendations were established for the first time for the support of cardiovascular health in adults and brain development in infants (see dosage recommendations below).

*I have been saying this all along, for years actually.*


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Abstract:

Summary Background

Dietary fatty acid intake has been proposed to contribute to asthma development with n-6 polyunsaturated fatty acids (PUFA) having a detrimental and n-3 PUFA a protective effect. Objective

The aim of our analysis was to explore the relationship between fatty acid composition of serum cholesteryl esters as marker of dietary intake and prevalence of asthma, impaired lung function and bronchial hyper-responsiveness in children. Methods

The study population consisted of 242 girls and 284 boys aged 8-11 years, living in Munich, Germany. Data were collected by parental questionnaire, lung function measurement and skin pr**k test according to the International Study of Asthma and Allergies in Childhood phase II protocol. Confounder-adjusted odds ratios (OR) with 95% confidence intervals (CI) were calculated for the association between quartiles of fatty acid concentration and health outcomes with the first quartile as reference. Results

n-3 PUFA: *levels of eicosapentaenoic acid were not related to asthma and impaired lung function*. Linolenic acid levels were positively associated with current asthma (OR for fourth quartile 3.35, 95% CI 1.29-8.66). Forced expiratory volume in 1 s (FEV1) values decreased with increasing levels of linolenic acid (p for trend=0.057). n-6 PUFA: *there was a strong positive association between arachidonic acid levels and current asthma* (OR4th quartile 4.54, 1.77-11.62) and a negative association with FEV1 (P=0.036). In contrast, linoleic acid was negatively related to current asthma (OR4th quartile 0.34, 0.14-0.87) and FEV1 values increased with increasing levels of linoleic acid (P=0.022). The ratio of measured n-6 to n-3 PUFA as well as levels of palmitic and oleic acid were not consistently related to asthma or lung function. Conclusion

Our data do not support the hypothesis of a protective role of n-3 PUFA. Elevated arachidonic acid levels in children with asthma may be because of a disturbed balance in the metabolism of n-6 PUFA or may be secondary to inflammation in these patients.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Omega 3 Fatty Acids: Paul Hardy

Dr. Hardy discussed his experience with treating many people with autism with omega 3 fatty acids and other nutritional supplements. He hypothesizes that some people diagnosed with ASD may actually have bipolar disorder.

During the last 100 years, brain size has decreased 10%, and this could be due to a lack of omega 3 fatty acids since they make up over 60% of the brain. Dietary intake of omega 3 fatty acids has greatly decreased in the US. Farm-raised fish are usually raised on corn, so they have little or no omega 3 fatty acids (which are made by algae). Also, the use of cod liver oil as a medication was largely stopped in the 1960s for no apparent reason. Finally, baby formulas do not contain any essential fatty acids.

*In his clinical experience, he finds that many people with autism have an omega 3 deficiency, and often have elevated arachidonic acid (a bad fatty acid). * Also, since omega 3 levels are very low in the US, the reference ranges of the testing labs may be too low. He estimates that 90% of people with ASD need omega 3 fatty acids.

He recommends 2-5 g/day of combined EPA and DHA, starting at a lower level and increasing.


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## w_llewellyn (Dec 28, 2007)

Again, you have failed to support any of your assertions. You are just posting a bunch of studies that are unrelated - either talking about the general health benefits of Omega 3's (which are not really in dispute), the fact that higher AA levels are noticed in things like autism and asthma (are you now suggesting AA causes asthma and autism?), the fact that AA is a growth promoter and may increase the growth rate of existing tumors, the fact that high corn oil in the diet is unhealthy. Nothing you posted shows that AA consumption causes anything you have stated.

Please, find a study showing that the supplementaion of AA has caused any of these bad things or stop wasting everyone's time including mine.


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## w_llewellyn (Dec 28, 2007)

thestudbeast said:


> Bump on my question.


You need to eat about 13 regular whole white eggs per day to equal that much AA. That is about 3 grams of cholesterol per day, and I am not even sure of the effects of high heat on AA. I don't know anyone that has done this for more than a day or two. If you do, please post your results..


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

Hey Bill, does XFactor help with strength gains?


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## w_llewellyn (Dec 28, 2007)

winger said:


> Hey Bill, does XFactor help with strength gains?


Yes, definitely..


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

Here is a study but they want $20.00......bastards. Click here.

I emailed the guy.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

w_llewellyn said:


> the fact that high corn oil in the diet is unhealthy.


So, corn oil is a nasty substance full of AA but your supplement is cool right?

If yes, then please explain why corn oils are bad and your supplement has no adverse health conciquences.

Do you really think that American bodybuilders are defficiant in AA?

You do not come out and say, but do suggest this, which is leading?

Do you agree that the ballance of Omega 3 to Omega 6 is a problem in the states?

I stated 1/10 to 1/20, but it is actually as high as 1/30 off from 3 to 6.

You have no problems with this?

And if you do, then the suggestion of adding in Omega 3's would actually compete with the AA and render your product worthless.

Are you also ok with the typical American diet being rich with AA, and needs supplementation?

After all much of the cows are fed corn which when we eat the meat elivates AA in the body, both beef fat and beef muscle.

You have no problems with elivated AA in the body?

If not then please explain.

If AA is responsible (out of ballance) for bad eicosanoids, would you supplement X-Factor?

Bill, everything I read tells me that AA is in abundance, Omega 3's are defficient, and adding excess inflammation is a problem.

With that said you have no problem with this statement?

Do you have any health disclaimers on your product?

If so what are they?

I posted those studies for a reason, not everything is so cut and dry, optimum health is what we all are after for longevity, are you suggesting that your product is after this goal?

Don't you think that the target group would be more suitable to vegetarians, than carnivores?

Show me one study, *only one *that deals with defficiencies in AA in regards to a bodybuilders diet.

If you can do that then please, show me a study where excessive AA in the diet is beneficial for optimum health.

If you choose to answer none of these questions then please answer the last two.

I am looking fwd to your answers.

Understanding eicosanoid's is something totally new, long term health effects are something that will unfold as time goes by, long after you made your money.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

w_llewellyn said:


> (are you now suggesting AA causes asthma and autism?)


Well, yah actually, in abundance, excessive AA has way more problems than you or I suggest.

Oh, I forgot you wont take your very own product due to your asthema, but let this not detour our debate on the healthy supplementation of AA in our diets.

Which for the record I am dead set against.

And for the record I can careless about cholesterol, and eating alot of eggs I have no problem with.

Arnold suggested Eggs are anabolic.

Vince Gironda suggested a high fat diet is anabolic.


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## w_llewellyn (Dec 28, 2007)

Once again Hackskii, you are still not supporting anything you have asserted earlier. This is just another 1,000+ words full of supposition, random questions, and personal jabs. I will continue to ignore these. The only thing remotely resembling an attempt at moving forward scientifically were your two requests for info at the end. I will answer, but again believe that it is time you provide actual data showing the supplementation of AA in humans has caused all these side effects you stated, or concede that this info cannot be found.

[1] There (again) is a reference in the article written by Mike Roberts on AA earlier in this thread that shows training (albeit endurance) to lower AA levels. There are other studies talking about resistance exercise and reduced AA levels/PG synthesis, but don't have them in front of me at the moment and am not digging through file cabinets to find them for you. This should be a sufficient place for you to start.

[2] I don't think I have been claiming that excessive AA is optimal to health. Nevertheless, the Baylor study did show that AA supplementation combined with resistance training significantly lowered IL-6 levels, a central inflammatory cytokine. IL-6 ELEVATIONS are related to systemic inflammation and insulin resistance, not reductions. So this appears to be a potential benefit. Even so, I will also remind you that AA is considered an advanced bodybuilding supplement, and we do not market it as a health aid for sedentary people.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

So, I guess that the 1 to 2 pounds of lean muscle you suggested should now be backed up with a study.

After all you are asking that of me.

To this I say I dont believe you.

Or, if I eat eggs and organ meat daily X-Factor will offer results and be safe to supplement?

What is the RDA of AA?

Your recommendation of X-factor yields how much AA a day?

Gonna take a stab at it here but I am guessing it is higher than the RDA?

It was difficult for me to determine if the diets were low in AA in relation to supplemtation, at this point, sure diets low in AA would recieve benefit from supplemtation.

Show me a study on X-Factor that proves your 1 to 2 pounds a week gains, (good luck finding that one).

Ok, here is an interesting study, I think you might like that Bill

*Dietary arachidonic acid: harmful, harmless or helpful?*

Mammalian cells and tissues contain substantial amounts of

the n-6 PUFA arachidonic acid, especially in their membrane

phospholipids. For example, platelets from human adults

living on a typical Western diet have about 25% phospholipid

fatty acids as arachidonic acid1, while for human mononuclear

cells, neutrophils, erythrocytes, skeletal muscle, cardiac tissue

and liver phospholipids, arachidonic acid contents are about

222, 153 , 171,4,5, 176 , 94 and 205% total fatty acids, respectively.

This arachidonic acid can have two origins: the diet

or endogenous synthesis from a precursor, particularly linoleic

acid, which is consumed in fairly high amounts in most diets.

Important dietary sources of preformed arachidonic acid are

eggs and meat; fish also contain arachidonic acid. Typical

intakes of arachidonic acid have been estimated to be between

50 and 300 mg/d for adults consuming Western-style diets7-9.

The most well-recognised functional role of cell membrane

arachidonic acid is as a cell signalling molecule, either in its

own right or after its conversion to oxidised derivatives

known as eicosanoids. The eicosanoid family of mediators

includes prostaglandins, thromboxanes, leukotrienes, lipoxins

and hydroxy- and hydroperoxy-eicosatetraenoic acids. To

form eicosanoids, arachidonic acid is first released from cell

membrane phospholipids by phospholipase enzymes. The

free arachidonic acid then acts as a substrate for cyclooxygenase,

lipoxygenase or cytochrome P450 enzymes, ultimately

yielding the various eicosanoid metabolites. These metabolites

have well-established roles in many pathological processes

including thrombosis, inflammation and immunosuppression.

Thus, drugs targeted at eicosanoid synthesis (aspirin, non-steroidal

anti-inflammatory drugs, some steroids, cyclooxygenase-

2 inhibitors) and actions (leukotriene receptor antagonists)

have been developed and in some cases are widely used

with good efficacy. The idea has developed that, since arachidonic

acid-derived mediators are involved in so many pathologies,

arachidonic acid itself must be harmful. This notion is

compounded by observations that free arachidonic acid is a

potent platelet aggregator, induces inflammatory responses

and is an immunosuppressant. Finally, the many health benefits

of long chain n-3 PUFA frequently involve an 'antagonism'

of arachidonic acid: long chain n-3 PUFA partly replace

arachidonic acid in cell membranes and inhibit arachidonic

acid metabolism to eicosanoids. These observations have led

to the idea that both arachidonic acid and its eicosanoid

derivatives are harmful. This idea is supported by a study

with arachidonic acid (6 g/d as an ethyl ester) in healthy

human volunteers, which was stopped early (after 3 weeks)

because of a dramatic increase in ex vivo platelet aggregation

10, which prompted concern about a potentially adverse

pro-thrombotic action of dietary arachidonic acid.

An article in the current issue of the British Journal of

Nutrition assesses the impact of increased dietary intake of

arachidonic acid in an adult population with high fish

intake11. This is the first study of arachidonic acid intake in

such a population; previous studies in healthy adult human

subjects have been conducted in low fish consumers in the

USA10,12 - 17 and in the UK18 - 20. In this new study, approximately

840 mg arachidonic acid/d was consumed by Japanese

adults for 4 weeks. Habitual arachidonic acid intake was estimated

to range between 110 and 270 mg/d with an average of

about 175 mg/d. This is not unlike typical intakes reported for

adults in Western countries7 - 9,18. Habitual intakes of EPA and

DHA ranged from 42 to 691 and from 98 to 991 mg/d, respectively,

with average intakes of about 310 and 550 mg/d respectively

11. These are much greater than long chain n-3 PUFA

intakes among those subjects involved in studies of arachidonic

acid previously (e.g. 90 and 150 mg/d for EPA and DHA,

respectively18). In this new study, the amount of arachidonic

acid was increased in serum phospholipids (from 9·6 to

13·7 g/100 g total fatty acids) and TAG (from 1·4 to 2·3 g/

100 g total fatty acids) with maximum incorporation occurring

at 2 weeks of supplementation11. The increase in arachidonic

acid content of serum phospholipids is consistent with that

seen in plasma phospholipids in adults in the UK supplementing

their diet with 680 mg arachidonic acid/d (from 9·3 to

15·9 g/100 g total fatty acids), in which maximum incorporation

occurred at 4 weeks (an earlier time point was not examined)

18. A washout period of 4 weeks resulted in a return of

arachidonic acid in serum phospholipids and TAG to levels

seen prior to starting supplementation11. Again, this is consistent

with earlier observations for plasma phospholipids after a

4-week washout period18. In the study of Kusumoto et al.

there was no effect of supplemental arachidonic acid on

blood pressure, serum lipid and glucose concentrations or

serum markers of liver function11. These findings are consistent

with an earlier study conducted in the USA using 1·5 g arachidonic

acid/d, which showed no effects on blood lipid or

lipoprotein concentrations14. However, the main focus of

this new study is platelet aggregation. Given this, it is unfortunate

that the authors do not report the fatty acid composition

of platelet phospholipids. Studies using data across populations

with different patterns of PUFA intake have reported

that platelet aggregation is highly related to the arachidonic

acid and EPA contents of platelets21. In this new study, maximal

aggregation of platelets in response to ADP, collagen or

arachidonic acid and platelet sensitivity to ADP or collagen

were not affected by dietary arachidonic acid supplementation

11. Thus, the main conclusion from this new study is

that increasing arachidonic acid intake by 840 mg/d does not

result in a pro-aggregatory state. One reason for this may be

that the starting platelet content of arachidonic acid was

already above that which results in a maximal aggregatory

response. Additionally, the relatively high long-chain n-3

PUFA content expected to be present in these platelets may

have prevented any pro-aggregatory effect of an increased arachidonic

acid content from occurring. However, without

seeing the data on platelet fatty acid composition in this

study it is not possible to assess this further. Furthermore,

no arachidonic acid-derived eicosanoids such as prostaglandin-

I2 and thromboxane-A2 are reported here and so it is not

possible to properly assess the functional impact of the supplement.

As indicated earlier, an early study reported a

marked increase in platelet aggregation after 6 g arachidonic

acid/d for 3 weeks10. This was associated with increased arachidonic

acid in platelets and increased urinary appearance of

a prostaglandin-E metabolite. In another study, arachidonic

acid (1·5 g/d for 7 weeks) only slightly increased platelet arachidonic

acid (from 21 to 22·5% of total fatty acids) and did

not alter platelet aggregation in response to ADP, collagen or

arachidonic acid, or prothrombin, partial thromboplastin or

bleeding times13. The limited effect of 1·5 g arachidonic

acid/d on platelet fatty acid composition probably accounts

for the lack of a functional effect. Furthermore, this study

suggests that platelet fatty acid composition in the study by

Kusumoto et al., which used 840 mg arachidonic acid/d,

may have been little affected; this would account for the

lack of functional effect on platelets. This strengthens the

need to see the data for platelet fatty acid composition.

In contrast to what might be predicted22 - 24, studies assessing

a range of immune functions and inflammatory markers in

healthy adults in response to increased intake of arachidonic

acid (up to 1·5 g/d) have not identified any major effects16 - 20.

Taken together with the studies on blood lipids, platelet reactivity

and bleeding time13,14, including this latest study11, it seems

appropriate to conclude that a significant increase in arachidonic

acid intake by healthy adults, up to an intake of, say, 1·5 g/d

appears unlikely to have any adverse effect. However, the earlier

study by Seyberth et al.10 suggests that higher intakes of arachidonic

acid should be approached with caution. Furthermore,

there is no information on the impact of increased arachidonic

acid supply in disease. It is possible that inflammatory processes

that already exist within an individual could be exacerbated by

providing exogenous arachidonic acid. However, the discovery

of novel anti-inflammatory mediators produced from arachidonic

acid25 and the identification of hitherto unknown anti-inflammatory

actions of mediators previously considered to be proinflammatory

in nature26 indicate first, the complexity of this

system and, second, that predicting the effect that increased arachidonic

acid supply might have is difficult. Nevertheless, it is

important to keep in mind that, just because there is little biological

impact of an increase in arachidonic acid intake or

status11 - 20, there may still be significant benefit from a decrease

in its intake or status.

It is important to note that a role for arachidonic acid in

neurological development has been identified27, that arachidonic

acid-derived eicosanoids are not confined to pathology

but have many physiological roles, that human breast milk

contains arachidonic acid28, that infant formulas, which

include arachidonic acid (and DHA), are associated with

improved growth and development29,30 and that formula

containing arachidonic acid (and DHA) has been shown to

enable preterm infants to achieve immune development similar

to that seen with breast-milk feeding31 and to lower the risk

of necrotising enterocolitis in preterm boys32. These observations

suggest an important role for arachidonic acid in the

normal growth and development of infants and demonstrate

that harmful actions are not seen as a consequence to its provision,

at least when given in combination with DHA.

In conclusion, this new study by Katsumoto et al. adds valuable

new information to our knowledge about the impact of

increased dietary intake of arachidonic acid11. Taken together

with earlier studies12 - 20, this study suggests that, rather than

being harmful, moderately increased arachidonic acid intake

is probably harmless in healthy adults, although the effect of

intakes above 1·5 g/d are not known and the effect of increased

intake in diseased individuals is not known. Furthermore, arachidonic

acid appears to be an important constituent of infant

formulas and in this setting may be helpful in growth, development

and health.

Philip C. Calder

Institute of Human Nutrition

School of Medicine

University of Southampton

Bassett Crescent East

Southampton SO16 7PX

UK

[email protected]

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(1995) Are long-chain polyunsaturated fatty acids essential

nutrients in infancy? Lancet 345, 1463-1468.

31. Field CJ, Thomson CA, Van Aerde JE, Parrott A, Euler A, Lien

E & Clandinin MT (2000) Lower proportion of CD45R0 þ cells and deficient interleukin-10 production by formula-fed

infants, compared with human-fed, is corrected with supplementation

of long-chain polyunsaturated fatty acids. J Pediatr

Gastroenterol Nutr 31, 291-299.

32. Carlson SE, Montalto MB, Ponder DL, Werkman SH &

Korones SB (1998) Lower incidence of necrotizing enterocolitis

in infants fed a preterm formula with egg phospholipids. Pediatr

Res 44, 491-498.


----------



## Tall (Aug 14, 2007)

hackskii said:


> ...
> 
> Taken together
> 
> ...


Lol Hacks - I'm confused now - this study is saying AA is ok?


----------



## Tall (Aug 14, 2007)

hackskii said:


> So, I guess that the 1 to 2 pounds of lean muscle you suggested should now be backed up with a study.
> 
> After all you are asking that of me.
> 
> ...


I'm reading the study as saying supplemented 'mega doses' are unsafe, under 2g ED is however safe...?


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

hackskii said:


> These observations have led
> 
> to the idea that both arachidonic acid and its eicosanoid
> 
> ...


Study stopped after 3 weeks.


----------



## Tall (Aug 14, 2007)

winger said:


> Study stopped after 3 weeks.


That study was yes - the author refers to about 4 studies over all.

The outcome of that study was if you take 6g ED as an Ethyl Ester (so AA bonded with an acid bonded to an alcohol - is this done for prioritisation by the liver? dunno...) then it increased the grouping of platelets in the blood which posed the risk of blood clotting.

No blood clotting was found though as the study was stopped.

Why on earth I'm trawling through medical studies on NYE is beyond me...??


----------



## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

TH&S said:


> Why on earth I'm trawling through medical studies on NYE is beyond me...??


Isn't it about 11:21 there?

Happy New Year!


----------



## Tall (Aug 14, 2007)

winger said:


> Isn't it about 11:21 there?
> 
> Happy New Year!


Lol yup


----------



## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Well the suggestion that AA is put into baby formula by Bill is correct.

Breast milk is very high in fat and babies need this for brain development, breast milk also has high amounts of DHA (you know one of the fats in fish oils), breast milk is rich in cholesterol too.

Using the logic Bill does, I guess we need to supplement cholesterol too eh?....lol

Breast milk also is high in Omega 3's.

Here is the ratio of AA to EPA that is for optimum health:

The best marker of wellness is the AA to EPA ratio in the blood. This is the gold standard for determining the extent of silent inflammation in a patient. The ideal AA/EPA ratio is approximately 1.5. This is the AA/EPA ratio found in the Japanese (10-13), who are considered the longest-lived and healthiest population in the world (14). For reference, the average AA/EPA ratio of Americans is approximately 12, and for patients with obesity, type 2diabetes, as well as other chronic conditions associated with silent inflammation, the AA/EPA ratio is above 20.

From what I got out of the article was that free arachidonic acid is a

potent platelet aggregator, induces inflammatory responses

and is an immunosuppressant.

But to be fair, I dont think anyone can say either way that a diet rich in Omega 6's (which typically is in the States and UK), would be safe to supplement X-Factor.

I know that we get too much in our diet anyway and supplementing it seems not only pointless but dangerous long term.

I stick to my original position.


----------



## Tall (Aug 14, 2007)

hackskii said:


> Well the suggestion that AA is put into baby formula by Bill is correct.
> 
> Breast milk is very high in fat and babies need this for brain development, breast milk also has high amounts of DHA (you know one of the fats in fish oils), breast milk is rich in cholesterol too.
> 
> ...


----------



## Tall (Aug 14, 2007)

hackskii said:


> Ok, here is an interesting study, I think you might like that Bill
> 
> *Dietary arachidonic acid: harmful, harmless or helpful?*.


Bill actually posted this here: http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/supplementation/26248-molecular-nutrition-xfactor-5.html#post348761

This is getting quite interesting. I'm slowly understanding what is being posted in the articles and extracts - its still very complicated though...


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## Tall (Aug 14, 2007)

Let no one say I'm biased... 

*Effects of arachidonic acid supplementation on training adaptations in resistance-trained males*

Journal of the International Society of Sports Nutrition 2007, *4**:*21doi:10.1186/1550-2783-4-21


[TR][TD]Published:28 November 2007
[/TD][/TR]
*Abstract (provisional)*

*Background*

To determine the impact of AA supplementation during resistance training on body composition, training adaptations, and markers of muscle hypertrophy in resistance-trained males.

*Methods*

In a randomized and double blind manner, 31 resistance-trained male subjects (22.1 +/- 5.0 yrs, 180.0 +/- 0.1 cm, 86.1 +/- 13.0 kg, 18.1 +/- 6.4% body fat) ingested either a placebo (PLA: 1 g * d-1 corn oil, n = 16) or AA (AA: 1 g * d-1 AA, n = 15) while participating in a standardized 4d * wk-1 resistance training regimen. Fasting blood samples, body composition, bench press one-repetition maximum (1RM), leg press 1RM and Wingate anaerobic capacity sprint tests were completed after 0, 25, and 50 days of supplementation. Percutaneous muscle biopsies were taken from the vastus lateralis on days 0 and 50.

*Results*

Wingate relative peak power was significantly greater after 50 days of supplementation while the inflammatory cytokine IL-6 was significantly lower after 25 days of supplementation in the AA group. PGE2 levels tended to be greater in the AA group. No significant differences were observed between groups in body composition, strength, anabolic and catabolic hormones, or markers of muscle hypertrophy (i.e., total protein content or MHC type I, IIa, and IIx protein content) and other intramuscular markers (i.e., FP and EP3 receptor activity or MHC type I, IIa, and IIx mRNA expression).

*Conclusions*

AA supplementation during resistance-training may enhance anaerobic capacity and lessen the inflammatory response to training. *However, AA supplementation does not promote greater gains in strength, muscle mass, or influence markers of muscle hypertrophy.*


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

TH&S said:


> Let no one say I'm biased...


I never tought you were biased bro.



TH&S said:


> *However, AA supplementation does not promote greater gains in strength, muscle mass, or influence markers of muscle hypertrophy.*


Oh man, this is some funny stuff here, so much for the 1 to 2 lbs a week muscle gains......Oh man, that is classic....lol

Oh, where is that study of 1 to 2 lbs of muscle a week?

That is some heavy unfounded statement.

So, let me see if I get this one strait.

I am going to supplement something that is already excessive in my body, spend alot of money, get no gains, and potentially compromise health?

Oh yah right.

Anything for a buck eh Bill?

Maybe I need to chase around this product on other boards and do a little copy and paste.

If I was paid as much to stop AA from getting on the shelves as he is for AA leaving them.......Oh nevermind, only satisfaction would be unvailing the truth, no monitary gain........Too bad.....lol

Sorry TH&S, I cant rep you anymore.


----------



## Tall (Aug 14, 2007)

hackskii said:


> Oh man, this is some funny stuff here, so much for the 1 to 2 lbs a week muscle gains......Oh man, that is classic....lol
> 
> Oh, where is that study of 1 to 2 lbs of muscle a week?


Just going to post the Full Extract now... Its taking me a while to get my head around it... All though the conclusion wasn't good there are some interesting numbers in there. But something will make you laugh...


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## Tall (Aug 14, 2007)

Attached is the full PDF extract of the study I quoted above.

I'll quote the basics - there are Standard Deviation issues to consider.

Over 50 days, the AA subjects increased marginally in body fat (0.5kg) - where the Placebo group stayed the same.

Both groups gained on their bench press - however the AA group did marginally more (10kgs compared to the Placebos 8kgs)

The AA group gained 0.2kgs more of Fat Free Mass when compared to the Placebo Group (1.2kgs for AA compared to 1kgs for the placebo group)

Protein was increased from 1.3g / lb BW to 2g / lb BW

AA group gained 2kgs more on the leg press when compared to the Placebo group.

Okay I know Hackskii that you have been patiently waiting for me to tell you the funny part...

okay here goes:



> Competing interests
> ​
> 
> 
> ...


Doh...!!

Bill - can you point me in the direction of the study which shows your subjects gained 10 to 15lbs over 50 days on this product? Thats what I was looking for when I found the above study.

Effects of arachidonic acid supplementation on training adaptations.pdf


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## w_llewellyn (Dec 28, 2007)

The Baylor study failed to produce statistical significance on the gains in body mass, lean body mass, and some other measures even though all weight and performance measures were higher in the AA group. We used small groups and there was too much personal variability. To produce a 95% confidence interval is difficult in supplement studies, especially small ones, as it only takes a few in the placebo group to make gains to skew significance.

To give you a little background Hackskii, you will find that there is a P Value next to most outcomes in a study. First you look at the total outcome, in this case which group gained more weight and strength. For the Baylor study it was indeed the AA group, on every measure. Then you must measure all the individual differences in groups to determine the odds that the groups reflected a change caused by the intervention and not random chance; what confidence you can have in the result. This is the P value. A P value of .05 says there was a 95% chance the intervention caused X result. A P value of .15 says there was an 85% chance. Only a P Value of 95% or greater is considered "proof" in a clinical study. In our case, due to small groups and differences between individuals, we only reached statistical significance on a couple of measures. You can see from the standard deviations that the numbers were quite broad. This does not mean the study proved AA doesn't build muscle, only that we could not prove it with 95% confidence or greater based on the variability of the numbers.

Even so, we did have some statistically strong and statistically significant measures, which demonstrates that AA does indeed effect performance and is not just a working as a blind placebo. So for a Phase I we are very pleased, and look forward to a larger and better controlled test for Phase II.

And I will remind you that I am giving the product away to prove it works. This debate is if it is safe or not.


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## w_llewellyn (Dec 28, 2007)

TH&S said:


> Okay I know Hackskii that you have been patiently waiting for me to tell you the funny part...


You find it funny that my company gave a substantial amount of money to a reputable university to independently study our supplement? Isn't this what all companies with new ingredients should be doing? I usually am complimented for it, so am a little shocked you find humor in it.


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## Tall (Aug 14, 2007)

w_llewellyn said:


> You find it funny that my company gave a substantial amount of money to a reputable university to independently study our supplement? Isn't this what all companies with new ingredients should be doing? I usually am complimented for it, so am a little shocked you find humor in it.


No the mild humour was found in the part in which you'd paid for the study but it didn't show the outcome to be as you had expected. Funny is the sense that life throws a spanner in the works but you need to laugh about it sometimes, and those comments were to Hackskii, and not directed at yourself as its fair to say Hackskii undersyands my sense of humour as I do his.

If you had read my previous posts you'll see that I had spent some considerable time going through the studies Hackskii had posted in order to show that the studies showed the AA appeared to be safe given certain 'provisos', to the point where I've almost being defending your product - hence my statement about being biased.

So again Bill - please stop being defensive.

I am genuinely interested in getting to the 'truth'.

I'm also somewhat disappointed you didn't mention this study - but I understand why you didn't as any business must protect its interests and at an element of marketting must be made when a business in making representations, so we'll leave that is it is.

I would be interested to see the details of the "Real Life" study your website mentions.

Whilst not an expert in scientific studies, I would feel it fair to say I have a reasonable knowledge on how to control an 'experiement', in the study you paid for Bill there were too many variables which changed and not enough control measures were in place IMHO.

Why was the placebo group placed on a supplement of Corn Oil instead of a substance which wasn't a pre-cursor to AA?

Why were some of the results self reported?

Why was the protein increased from 1.3g / lb BW ED to 2g / lb BW ED?

From reading the numbers, it would appear the better athletes were placed on the placebo - what would have happened if the same study was conducted again with the groups reversed...?

I'n my mind the interesting part of the study was the fact over a 50 day period, Bench Press was increased by 12kgs and Leg Press by 25kgs while both groups were supplementing with either AA or the Placebo which was a precursor to AA, but the AA group had vastly more prostagladins in there system at the end.

I mind mind the product is safe providing the following conditions are observed:

- AA is not bonded with an Ethyl Ester and supplemented at more than 6g ED.

- AA is not bonded with sodium and injected


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## thestudbeast (Jul 20, 2007)

w_llewellyn said:


> You need to eat about 13 regular whole white eggs per day to equal that much AA. That is about 3 grams of cholesterol per day, and I am not even sure of the effects of high heat on AA. I don't know anyone that has done this for more than a day or two. If you do, please post your results..


200mg per whole egg so 13 gives 2.6g right....... same as x-factor.

So what about the cholesterol? Dietry cholesterol does not has a bearing on chances of a heart attack, your so educated on fats yet choose to perpetuate a myth.......... thats naughty.

Try Vince Gironda or anyone who's tried his methods for people who have consumed way more than 13 eggs per day for 8 week stretches. Certainly works no doubt in that, the results speak for themselves but wether the AA has anything to do with it I could not comment on. Vince did however insist on them being consumed raw.


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## Nytol (Jul 16, 2005)

thestudbeast said:


> 200mg per whole egg so 13 gives 2.6g right....... same as x-factor.
> 
> * So what about the cholesterol? Dietry cholesterol does not has a bearing on chances of a heart attack, your so educated on fats yet choose to perpetuate a myth.......... thats naughty.*


I thought so too.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

I have never seen this depth of discussion on any board.

WOW.

Very impressive.

Thanks Bill on helping me with understanding studies, I am not too good at all the numbers and such as I have zero college experiance, hell I even took the easy classes in high school.


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

Great thread!


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## phosphate bond (Dec 31, 2007)

hackskii said:


> Also ruins the insulin to GH ratio.
> 
> Fish oils lower AA, which is what we want, also brings us more insulin sensitivity, again this is what we want.
> 
> In the presence of AA and excess insulin this is truely a health threatening thing.


(Note: I am a independent contractor working with Molecular Nutrition)

Actually Increased AA in *human *skeletal muscle has been correlated with decreased fasting insulin levels.

Moreover it has been found that the ratio of AA to saturated fat in human skeletal muscle phospholipids correlates with decreased insulin levels.

So you want higher levels of AA and decreased levels of saturated fat in muscle if we care about insulin sensitivity.

Now in this study Bill did IL-6 (which is secreted by hyperinsulinemia and/or hypoxia) showed a strong trend towards decreasing and I believe this to be partly done by reductions in insulin levels in the AA group (although he never measured fasting blood sugar or fasting insulin levels in the experiment he funded)

Below is a study I have which supports the ability of AA to lower insulin levels (when AA is found in skeletal muscle).



Pubmed said:


> N Engl J Med. 1993 Jan 28;328(4):238-44.Click here to read Links
> 
> The relation between insulin sensitivity and the fatty-acid composition of skeletal-muscle phospholipids.
> 
> ...


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## phosphate bond (Dec 31, 2007)

thestudbeast said:


> O.k first up what sources of AA are there:
> 
> Liver
> 
> ...


The only real problem with eating too much of an American diet is there is a lot of saturated fat that accompanies the AA. I think Ideally you would want the saturated fat lower in relation to the AA.

The shame is that Animals raised by ranchers these days are fattened up considerably whereas the wild animals humans evolved to eat are much more lean (higher AA to saturated fat ratio....at least according to Udo Erasmus's book<---later on I will try and find the page number where I found that information. It's just been a long time since I looked this up)


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## phosphate bond (Dec 31, 2007)

hackskii said:


> What cracks me up is this.
> 
> Corn oil is very high in arachidonic acid, why not just chug some of that?


Corn oil doesn't have any AA in it. As a matter of fact that is what Bill used as the placebo for the X factor experiment.

So those results where really comparing AA to another omega 6. Still I though the results were interesting.


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## thestudbeast (Jul 20, 2007)

phosphate bond said:


> The only real problem with eating too much of an American diet is there is a lot of saturated fat that accompanies the AA. I think Ideally you would want the saturated fat lower in relation to the AA.
> 
> The shame is that Animals raised by ranchers these days are fattened up considerably whereas the wild animals humans evolved to eat are much more lean (higher AA to saturated fat ratio....at least according to Udo Erasmus's book<---later on I will try and find the page number where I found that information. It's just been a long time since I looked this up)


OK so I'm glad your not also going to mention the cholesterol, that was of course just silly as we all know dietry cholesterol has a less than 4% impact on your cholesterol levels plus it's the heated treated damaged cholesterol thats bad not the stuff from organic free range eggs which is good!

Now while I agree with you in that farmers are not following good practice with their animals these days, you seem to be thinking about getting your dietry AA from muscle meet, this would be long winded.

I'm asking the difference between X-factor and the same value of eggs and liver (that would be 6 free range organic eggs and 50g of New zealand lambs liver).

Are you saying saturated fat is bad for you (another myth educated people should stop sreading) or are you saying for AA to work it needs to be in a low saturated fat diet?

Welcome to UKMuscle we follow a UK diet here


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Well AA is in the fat and muscle of meat, dropping the fat in the meat and adding in AA seems a bit crazy.

There is too much AA in the typical American diet anyway.

Not to mention the ratio of Omega 3 to 6 is defficient in the American diet, so again why supplement a product that costs money, not proven for long term health inplications, adding in Omega 6 when we already have too much of that and avoid Omega 3's while taking your product as to not interfere with its inflammatory properties?

Look, I am simple and to me it seems adding in AA to a diet rich in AA is crazy, and comes at a price of adding in some muscle at the cost of health.

Defending your product sounds like a defense lawyer defending his guilty client.

Why post a study on men from 27 patients undergoing coronary artery surgery?

Insulin sensitivity comes from resistance training and Omega 3's.

Why not post a study on a group of people that supplement Omega 3's compared to those that dont take Omega 3's and are taking AA as a supplement?

I would venture to say the Omega 3 group would have a better chance at becomming more insulin sensitive than your AA group.

Do a study on that if you want to validate your claims, seems like you pick and choose only those studies that favor your outcome.

Did those men have the same diet and glycemic index as well as the macros of proteins, carbs and fats?

Was the diet controlled?

What percentage of bodyfat were the group?

Got news for ya, insulin resistance also can be in lean men that have too many processed foods and too much sugar in their diet as well as not enough good fats.


----------



## big_nige (Apr 3, 2007)

really aiming this question to hackskii and thestudbeast, reading ur info u guys no your foods and the effects.

im starting the anabolic diet could u point me away from the damged omega 6's and fats etc and does free range food really make a difference i know the price does to your wallet. i just lack the knowledge in fats and proteins unlike urselves.

cheers


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

I answered this on a post that you submitted.

Some say free range is better, but I am not sure. Free range is compromised to suggest the animals are free range, in todays diet much of this is not so.

Kindof like marketing hype for sales of a more expensive product.

I buy eggs from a guy that has chickens in his yard, sure he feeds them chicken feed, but remember these chickens eat bugs and everything in dudes yard, this egg is superior and the yolk is golden in color and rather large in nature (in comparison to store bought eggs), not only that but the color of the shell is green, brown, and I suspect this egg is superior.

Hell, they taste better.

Granted they are a bit smaller but killer when making a meal.

Same as cattle, free range is way higher in CLA, Omega 3's, among other healthy things.

If you can buy these then do so.

If not then you dont have much choice in supplementing Omega 3's as the ratio of 3 to 6 is out of whack.


----------



## phosphate bond (Dec 31, 2007)

thestudbeast said:


> Are you saying saturated fat is bad for you (another myth educated people should stop sreading) or are you saying for AA to work it needs to be in a low saturated fat diet?
> 
> Welcome to UKMuscle we follow a UK diet here


Well saturated fat is definitely implicated in insulin resistance and even that journal abstract I posted points to that. Saturated fat also delays insulin secretion by the pancreas, but results in oversecretion overall (due to a late sensing in the rise in blood sugar in the body)

Then insulin resistance is in turn implicated in the formation of too many "bad prostaglandins" (in other *non-muscle parts of the body*) according to the "zone diet" theory.

However, What people need to remember is that prostanglandins released by muscle contractions are neccessary for the action of insulin to work* in muscle*. Lowering of cAMP (by series 2 prostanglandins) allows glycogen sythetase to be activated for example.

P.S. The main problem with saturated fat is in sendentary people (because of their low ability to oxidize it) and thus it can accumulate in muscle phosopholipids (displacing arachidonic acid there). Then in turn there insulin action doesn't work as well when they (obese people) exercise. This seems to me to be a nasty catch-22.


----------



## phosphate bond (Dec 31, 2007)

hackskii said:


> If not then you dont have much choice in supplementing Omega 3's as the ratio of 3 to 6 is out of whack.


The ratio of one thing, but I think the ratio of polyunsaturated fatty acids to saturated fatty acid in muscle phospholipid matters too.

P.S. I have no real problem with EPA/DHA with Arachidonic acid. In fact in several studies they appear to be synergistic (rather than antagonistic). It really depends on the application these fatty acids are used in that matters most IMO.


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

I don't give a rats ass about studies. I eat what God put on this earth and that is meat, fruits and vegetables.


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## Louis_C (Dec 30, 2007)

£50 a pop? Would be cheaper and better buying the real deal


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

phosphate bond said:


> Corn oil doesn't have any AA in it.


The primary fat in corn oil, linoleic acid, can convert to arachidonic acid in the body.

So, you are right that it doesn't have AA in it but it does convert to AA.

Sources of linoleic acid include vegetable oils, soybean oil, corn oil, and safflower oil, as well as, grains and nuts.

Yah, there is too much of this fat in the typical American diet.

Too much AA and too many Omega 6's, and not enough Omega 3's.

Beings that AA is an Omega 6 and we have too many of those in our diet why supplement?

Beings that AA is in abundance in the American diet, why supplement it?



phosphate bond said:


> Then insulin resistance is in turn implicated in the formation of too many "bad prostaglandins" (in other *non-muscle parts of the body*) according to the "zone diet" theory.


AA is one of the main building blocks for bad eicosanoids, supplementing it only makes this worse.

Fish oils support good eicosanoids, which you probably know that prostaglandins are sub-class eicosanoids.

Again, your X-Factor is only safe for a very small group of people, other than that it is basically something that is actually dangerous to supplement for the majority of the population.

Bet you take all orders without screening the preferred profile of people.

Is there any disclaimer on your product of the potential dangers of X-Factor?

If so please list these.

Alcohol in small amounts is good for the body and a tonic for the liver, excess is not good, AA is the same, moderation is ok, but much of the population has too much AA in their diets due to vegetable oils.

Again supplementing AA in the body is not healthy just like me drinking a 12 pack of beer a day.

Make no mistake about it, too much AA in the body is not healthy, nor conducive for good health, supplementing it only increases the risk of overproduction of bad eicosanoids in the body.

So, it is not a matter if it builds muscle, inflammation is necessary for that.

My biggest concern is health.

Last thing I need in my diet is more inflammation.

There are two tests that test the ratio of EPA and AA in the body, both suggest there is too much AA in the body.

I have heard of guys on other boards that got zero effects from X-Factor, why is this?

Too much AA in the body already?

Before you get started on Saturated fats, those are necessary for good health, all the sex steroids come from cholesterol.

Beef has been known for years to be great for bulking, beef has AA in both the fat and the muscle.

Funny thing about supplements.

A supplement is to add something to the diet that is defficient, like fish oils for those that dont eat enough fish, I supplement that.

I dont eat alot of fruits so I supplement Vitamin C in my diet.

What do you class X-factor as?

If you say supplement then it is not necessary and needs not supplementation.

I would class it as a pro-inflammatory and potentially dangerous product.


----------



## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Too much AA effecting children with ADHD, or better said EPA and DHA help children with ADHD and lowering the ratio of AA to EPA/DHA?

Research

Effects of an open-label pilot study with high-dose EPA/DHA concentrates on plasma phospholipids and behavior in children with attention deficit hyperactivity disorder

Paul J Sorgi1 , Edward M Hallowell1 , Heather L Hutchins2 and Barry Sears2

1Hallowell Center, 142 North Road, Suite F 105, Sudbury, MA 01776, USA

2Inflammation Research Foundation, 222 Rosewood Drive, Suite 500, Danvers, MA 01923, USA

Nutrition Journal 2007, 6:16doi:10.1186/1475-2891-6-16

Abstract

Background

Attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) is the most common neurological condition in children. This pilot study evaluated the effects of high-dose eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA) and docosahexaenoic acid (DHA) supplementation on the isolated plasma phospholipids and behavior in children with ADHD (primarily inattentive subtype and combined subtype).

Methods

Nine children were initially supplemented with 16.2 g EPA/DHA concentrates per day. The dosage was adjusted dependent on the ratio of arachidonic acid (AA) to EPA in the isolated plasma phospholipids at four weeks to reach a level normally found in the Japanese population.

Results

At the end of the eight-week study, supplementation resulted in significant increases in EPA and DHA, as well as a significant reduction in the AA:EPA ratio (20.78 ± 5.26 to 5.95 ± 7.35, p < 0.01). A psychiatrist (blind to supplement compliance or dosage modifications) reported significant improvements in behavior (inattention, hyperactivity, oppositional/defiant behavior, and conduct disorder). There was also a significant correlation between the reduction in the AA:EPA ratio and global severity of illness scores.

Conclusion

The findings of this small pilot study suggest supplementation with high-dose EPA/DHA concentrates may improve behavior in children with ADHD.

Background

Attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) is a neurological condition characterized by the inability to concentrate in a sustained manner, to pay attention to tasks, and to control impulsive actions [1]. It is estimated that 3 to 7 percent of children have this disorder, and boys are affected to a much greater extent than girls [2]. As many as 60 to 80 percent of children with ADHD continue to have problems with this condition as they become adults [1]. The etiology appears to be multi-factorial with both genetic and environmental influences. Among these influences is an observed decrease in long-chain (LC) polyunsaturated fatty acids (PUFAs) in children with ADHD. Some proposed mechanisms for the low levels of PUFAs include insufficient dietary intake, inefficient conversion of shorter chain PUFAs to LC PUFAs or rapid metabolism of LC PUFAs [3]. Stevens et al. [4,5] found that young boys with ADHD and symptoms of essential fatty acid (EFA) deficiency (excessive thirst, dry skin and hair, brittle nails, frequent urination and/or hyperfollicular keratoses) are characterized by low levels of LC PUFAs, including AA, EPA and DHA in the plasma phospholipids compared to control. This group of children with ADHD also had a high ratio of AA to EPA compared to control (68.87 vs. 45.83 respectively) suggesting the depression of EPA was greater than that of AA [4,5]. Other studies from the same group have also reported greater AA:EPA ratios in children [3] and young adults [6] with ADHD compared to control.

The findings that children with ADHD have altered PUFA levels led to interventional studies that supplemented with these fatty acids. Hirayama et al. [7] found that supplementation of 0.61 g of LC omega-3 fatty acids per day for two months (primarily DHA in foods) had no effect when analyzing parent and teacher assessments separately in children with ADHD; however, when analyzing assessments together, physical aggression significantly improved compared to the placebo group [8]. Voigt et al. [9] supplemented children with ADHD for four months with 0.35 g of DHA per day and found no improvements in any ADHD symptoms. Richardson and Puri [10] supplemented children with ADHD related symptoms, primarily dyslexia, for three months with 1.67 g per day of omega-3 and omega-6 fatty acids or olive oil placebo in a double-blind randomized fashion. Half of the scales tested (seven of 14) improved compared to placebo, including cognition, anxiety/shyness, psychosomatic subscales, restlessness/impulsivity and three global scales; however, the participants were children with ADHD-related symptoms not diagnosed with ADHD in accordance to DSM IV criteria. The only study that measured the AA:EPA ratio was that of Stevens et al. [11] who supplemented children with ADHD and symptoms of EFA deficiency with 0.66 g per day of both omega-3 and omega-6 PUFAs for four months. Although the AA:EPA ratio decreased from 33.04 to 15.19, only two of 16 behavioral outcome measures significantly improved compared to the placebo group suggesting the decreased AA:EPA ratio may not have been lowered enough to observe a greater impact on behavior.

Depression is often a co-morbidity of ADHD and an increased AA:EPA ratio has been shown to positively correlate with severity of depression [12]. High-dose dietary supplementation with EPA and DHA (9.6 g) has been shown as an effective adjunctive treatment for bipolar depression [13]. Epidemiological data has shown that the Japanese population has low rates of depression [14], compared to the US population and they have a high intake of fish and low AA:EPA ratio [15]. The ratio of AA:EPA in the isolated plasma phospholipids of the Japanese population is approximately 1.3 to 3 [15,16]; young boys with ADHD in the United States had AA:EPA ratios greater than 30 [4,5,11]. A recent study found negative correlations between omega-3 status and behavior in young adults with ADHD suggesting lower omega-3 status may be associated with severity of behavioral symptoms [6].

The interventional studies in children with ADHD demonstrate that some behavior may improve with PUFA supplementation [5,8,10]; however, the findings have not been consistent and few have monitored fatty acid levels in the plasma phospholipids. A possible association between ADHD behaviors and omega-3 status, particularly the AA:EPA ratio and the lack of consistent results led us to hypothesize that insufficient levels of omega-3 fatty acids, or lack of sufficient reduction of the AA:EPA ratio, are two possible explanations for the inconsistent findings of previous studies. To address this hypothesis, we undertook an open-label pilot study to first determine if children with ADHD would adhere to a protocol of high-dose EPA/DHA concentrates (initial dosage of 16.2 g EPA and DHA per day) to reach the goal AA:EPA ratio between 1.5 and 3 as found in the Japanese population. Second, behavior was assessed by a psychiatrist specialized in this childhood disorder to measure what effect such a reduced AA:EPA ratio would have on behavior.

Methods

Study design and participants

This was an eight-week, open-label, proof-of-efficacy pilot study. Nine children aged 8-16 were recruited from the patient population under treatment for ADHD-primarily inattentive subtype or ADHD-combined subtype at the Hallowell Center, Sudbury, MA. There were more boys (n = 6) than girls (n = 3). Two-thirds (n = 6) presented with ADHD-combined subtype, and one-third (n = 3) with ADHD-primarily inattentive subtype according to criteria of the Diagnostic Statistical Manual (DSM) IV [17]. Two of the three participants who presented with ADHD-primarily inattentive subtype were girls. Participant characteristics are outlined in Table 1. All participants had an established relationship with the psychiatrist involved in the study. Three participants voluntarily discontinued stimulant medication prior to study initiation with the psychiatrist's approval. The remainder continued with their treatment regime for the duration of the study. There were no medication dosage changes during the course of the eight-week study. Children and parents/guardians provided informed and written assent and consent respectively. Integreview, Houston, TX, approved the study for the use of human subjects in research.

Table 1. Baseline Characteristics of Study Participants*

Study intervention

At the start of the study, all participants were instructed to consume two tablespoons (30 mL) of a liquid EPA/DHA concentrate (supplied by the Inflammation Research Foundation) providing 16.2 g of LC omega-3 fatty acids (10.8 g EPA and 5.4 g DHA) per day. The EPA/DHA concentrate dosage was adjusted at week four based on the AA:EPA ratio in the isolated plasma phospholipids as follows: if the AA:EPA ratio was below 1.0, the dosage was decreased to 15 ml (5.4 g EPA, 2.7 g DHA per day), if the AA:EPA ratio was between 1.0 and 1.5 the dosage was decreased to 20 ml (8.1 g EPA, 4 g DHA per day). Isolated plasma phospholipids are not subject to daily fluctuations in dietary intake and are a reliable marker of fatty acid levels [18] and correlate to dietary intake of fatty fish [19-21] and fish oil supplementation [22,23]. EPA levels were used to monitor adherence to the supplementation protocol and the participant's parent/guardian was phoned once per week to monitor adherence and adverse effects of the EPA/DHA concentrates. The children and at least one parent/guardian met with the psychiatrist at three time points: baseline (week 0), midpoint (week four) and conclusion (week eight). At the initial (baseline) visit participants were advised to follow a "healthy diet" that encouraged fruits, vegetables and balanced intake of macronutrients at meals and snacks. At each of the three meetings, the psychiatrist conducted behavioral assessments, and a phlebotomist drew blood for fatty acid analysis. Fatty acid analysis of the isolated plasma phospholipids was completed by Nutrasource Diagnostics, Guelph, ON, Canada, as described by Laidlaw and Holub [23].

Behavioral assessment

The ADHD Symptom Checklist-4 (ADHD SC-4) was used to monitor behavioral changes by the psychiatrist at each meeting. Retrospectively the psychiatrist asked the parent/guardian and child each of the checklist questions and also observed symptoms during the process. This questionnaire categorizes behavior as inattention, hyperactivity, oppositional/defiant, and conduct disorder. There was also a section to monitor medication side effects. Inattention and hyperactivity scores can range from 0 to 27 each. Oppositional/defiant scores range from 0 to 24 and conduct disorder from 0 to 3 [24,25].

The Clinical Global Impression Scale was used by the psychiatrist to rate participants' severity of illness [26]. The scores are derived from a 7-point Likert scale [26]. Severity of illness ranged from 1 as normal (not at all symptomatic), to 7 as among the most symptomatic patients. Although the psychiatrist knew the children were part of a study, he was blind to dosage adjustments and protocol adherence. The parents also completed the short form Conner's Parent's Rating Scale (CPRS) [27-29] at baseline, week four and week eight. Responses were scored and categorized into 4 groups: oppositional behavior, cognitive problems/inattention, hyperactivity and an ADHD index.

Statistical analysis

Summary statistics are reported as mean ± SD and medians. Statistical analyses were performed using Stata for Mac (version 9, StataCorp LP, College Station, Texas). Fatty acids, ADHD SC-4, CPRS, and severity of illness were reported for baseline (week 0), midpoint (week four) and at the conclusion of the study (week eight). The non-parametric Friedman test was used to assess changes over time. If the Friedman test was statistically significant at the 0.05 level, then the Wilcoxon signed rank test was used as a post-hoc test to compare changes from baseline to four and eight weeks. Spearman correlations were used to identify a relationship between changes in the primary fatty acid outcome variable, the AA:EPA ratio, and the primary behavioral outcome variable, severity of illness.

Results

Effect of EPA/DHA concentrates on isolated plasma phospholipid fatty acid levels

Blood was monitored throughout the study to ensure that the AA:EPA ratio was greater than 1.0 because of the potential concern with high-dose EPA/DHA supplementation on prolonged bleeding times; although, a recent study of the Japanese indicated no adverse effects related to EPA intake in patients whose AA:EPA ration was lowered to 0.8 [15]. To maintain the goal AA:EPA ratio between 1.5 and 3 dosage adjustments were made at week four based on fatty acid results. At week four, three participants had an AA:EPA ratio below 1.0 and adjusted their EPA/DHA concentrate dosage to 15 ml per day; two participants had AA:EPA ratios between 1.0 and 1.5 and adjusted their dosage to 20 ml EPA/DHA concentrate; the remaining four participants had an AA:EPA ratio of 1.5 or above, and were instructed to continue with the initial daily dosage. Four of the five participants whose dosage was adjusted at week four increased their AA:EPA ratio by week eight, however the AA:EPA ratio remained less than 3 (Figure 1). Two participants had an AA:EPA ratio less than one at week eight and upon exiting the study were advised to decrease the supplement dosage if they were to continue with the protocol post study.

Figure 1. AA:EPA ratio changes from week 4 to 8 in the participants with EPA/DHA concentrate dosage changes.* * Each line represents a participant's AA:EPA ratio from week 4 to week 8 in the five who were instructed to decrease their intake of the EPA/DHA concentrate.

Overall, at the conclusion of the eight weeks of supplementation, the average EPA and DHA levels in the isolated plasma phospholipids significantly increased by a factor of 9.5 and 2.4 respectively (Table 2). The AA tended to decrease at eight weeks, although the reduction was not significant (p = 0.07). As a consequence of AA and EPA changes, there was a 71% reduction in the mean AA:EPA ratio (20.78 ± 5.26 to 5.95 ± 7.35, p < 0.01) from baseline to week eight. The EPA/DHA concentrate dosage adjustment at week four resulted in the average EPA and DHA levels to increase from week four to eight with a corresponding 42% relative increase (4.19 ± .5.45 to 5.95 ± 7.35, p = 0.07) in the AA:EPA ratio; in contrast, the relative increase in median AA:EPA ratio over the same period was only 16% and better reflects the actual changes among compliant study participants. Nonetheless, these increases demonstrate sensitivity to EPA and DHA supplementation dosage.

Table 2. Fatty acids from the isolated plasma phospholipids described as means ± SD and median.*

Protocol adherence

The largest AA:EPA reduction for most participants occurred in the first four weeks (Figure 2). Figure 2 shows that one participant's AA:EPA ratio returned to baseline levels at week eight following a reduction at week four. Furthermore, this participant's EPA and DHA levels also returned to near baseline levels, indicating poor compliance from week four to eight. This participant's parent reported poor protocol adherence for the second half of the study, which mimics the fatty acid data. A second participant who refused to consume the liquid was switched to a capsule supplementation and was instructed to consume 24 one-gram capsules (9.6 g EPA and 4.8 g DHA) per day from week two to week eight. The lack of change in the AA:EPA ratio in this participant indicated non-compliance. We chose less than 100% increase in the isolated plasma phospholipids for EPA and DHA as an indicator of poor compliance. The two non-compliant children were not of the same ADHD subtype or gender. All other participants had greater than a 100% increase in both EPA and DHA levels at the conclusion of the study and were considered compliant with study supplementation protocol.

Figure 2. AA:EPA ratio changes at week 0, week 4 and week 8.* *Each line represents a participant's AA:EPA ratio from baseline to week 4 and week 8, dashed lines represent the participants whose EPA/DHA concentrate dosage was not changed at week 4.

Adverse effects

One participant reported loose stools while taking 30 ml of the liquid EPA/DHA concentrate per day. At week four, the dosage was decreased to 15 ml per day with no subsequent adverse events. No observational effects on bleeding were reported by the parents. One child had adverse effects (tics) related to stimulant medication prior to study initiation that continued throughout the study. Sleep disturbance is another know adverse effect of medication for the treatment for ADHD [30]; four of the nine children had improvements in sleep noted by the parents.

Behavioral analysis

All categories of the ADHD SC-4 significantly improved by week eight. Specifically, inattention, hyperactivity, oppositional/defiant behavior and conduct disorder all significantly improved over the course of the study (Table 3). The CPRS showed significant improvements (p < 0.05) in all four categories (oppositional behavior, cognitive problems/inattention, hyperactivity, and the ADHD index) over the eight week study as well (Table 3). The severity of illness score, assessed by the psychiatrist, tended to improve (p = 0.08) over time. On average, the severity of illness score decreased by 1 point from 4.4 (moderately symptomatic) to 3.3 (mildly symptomatic). The two subjects who were identified as non-compliant from parental reports and fatty acid levels were the only participants who were scored a 5 (markedly symptomatic) at baseline and week eight.

Table 3. Behavioral assessment*

Correlations

There was a significant positive correlation of the percent change in AA:EPA ratio with the percent change in severity of illness (Rho = 0.7638, p = 0.027). However, the AA:EPA ratio did not significantly correlate with the ADHD SC-4 or CPRS categories.

Discussion

Supplementation with high-dose EPA/DHA concentrate resulted in significant modifications of fatty acids, particularly a significant improvement in the AA:EPA ratio in the isolated plasma phospholipids and improvements in behavior assessed by a psychiatrist (blinded to protocol adherence and supplement dosage adjustments) in this small pilot sample of children with ADHD.

At baseline fatty acid analysis of the isolated plasma phospholipids from the children in this study were similar to that of previous studies of children with ADHD and thirst/skin symptoms of EFA deficiency [3,5,11]; however, we did not assess EFA deficiency symptoms. Children with ADHD and thirst/skin symptoms of EFA deficiency had lower AA and DHA levels in the plasma phospholipids compared to control groups. Both the AA and DHA mean levels from previous studies [3,5,11] were within the 95% CI (8.98-10.05; 1.63-2.97, respectively) of this study's mean AA and DHA levels.

Supplementation of high-dose EPA/DHA concentrates resulted in marked changes in fatty acid levels of the isolated plasma phospholipids. EPA and DHA levels in the isolated plasma phospholipids were used to monitor compliance. We chose the AA:EPA ratio as an important marker because of it's relationship with depression [12], as depression is often associated with ADHD [31]. In this study, there was indeed a significant positive correlation between the AA:EPA ratio and severity of illness.

Although the EPA and DHA supplementation dosages used in this study were high compared to previous studies with children, there was no serious adverse effect except one case of loose stools that was corrected with a lower dose. Young et al. [32] supplemented adults with ADHD with high-dose EPA/DHA concentrates (approximately 36 g EPA and DHA per day) with no reported serious adverse effects other than loose stools and fishy burps. The average AA:EPA ratio after 12 weeks of the high-dose EPA/DHA supplementation in adults with ADHD was 1.4 ± 0.6 [32]; however, behavior was not assessed in this study.

Stevens et al. [11] supplemented children with ADHD and thirst/skin symptoms with 480 mg DHA, 80 mg EPA, 40 mg AA and 60 mg GLA per day. At these levels, the AA:EPA ratio was reduced to15.19 after four months [11], which remains 2.5 times greater than the mean AA:EPA ratio obtained in this study. Stevens et al. [11] did monitor behavior and found improvements in conduct assessed by the parents and attention assessed by the teachers in the PUFA group compared to olive oil placebo. When assessed clinically, the parental rating scales were also evaluated based on diagnostic criteria, and a significant PUFA treatment effect was reported for oppositional/defiant disorder. The findings by Stevens et al. [11] supports our data in that we also found improvements in oppositional behaviors rated by the parents and improvements in both oppositional/defiant behaviors and conduct assessed clinically by the psychiatrist, however, a psychiatrist did not assess behavior in Stevens et al.'s study.

This study found a statistically significant improvement in the psychiatrist's report of inattention, hyperactivity, oppositional/defiant behavior and conduct disorder based on the ADHD SC-4 questionnaire. Scores for inattention, hyperactivity and oppositional/defiant behavior continued to improve from week four to eight, even with the EPA/DHA concentrate dosage adjustment. The dosage adjustment, however, did not bring the AA:EPA ratio above 3 suggesting the importance of monitoring fatty acids and the AA:EPA ratio in particular rather than EPA/DHA dosage alone. The severity of illness scale demonstrated a positive improvement from an average of moderately symptomatic to mildly symptomatic. This improvement was similar regardless of medication use or lack there of. The percent change in severity of illness also correlated with percent decrease in the AA:EPA ratio, suggesting a connection between the clinical improvement observed by the psychiatrist and the improvements in the AA:EPA ratio.

Data from Stevens et al. [11] in children and Young et al. [32] in adults with ADHD suggest that greater amounts of both EPA and DHA may be required to decrease the AA:EPA ratio to between 1.5 and 3. The mean AA:EPA ratio at the end of this study was 5.95 ± 7.35 for all participants. When the two participants who were non-compliant were removed, the AA:EPA ratio was 2.52 ± 2.91, suggesting a daily dose between 8.1 g and 16.2 g of EPA/DHA concentrate may be appropriate to decrease the AA:EPA ratio to between 1.5 and 3 and to observe improvements in behavior in children with ADHD.

There are a number of limitations to this pilot study and therefore interpretation of results requires caution. The study is limited in that there was no placebo group for reference comparisons as this was a pilot study to determine appropriate dosage for protocol adherence and to maintain AA:EPA levels between 1.5 and 3. Dietary intake was not recorded at baseline or monitored throughout the study; therefore, we are unable to decipher intake of fatty acids from the diet. Also related to diet, we advised the children to eat more fruits and vegetables and consume meals and snacks that are balanced with protein, carbohydrates (preferably fruit and vegetables) and "healthy" monounsaturated fats. Advice for following both a "healthy diet" and high-dose fish oil supplementation may have been confounding factors. However, the dose-response relationship between percent change in AA:EPA ratio and the reduction in the severity of ADHD suggest the behavioral changes were due to, at least in part, the intake of high-dose EPA/DHA concentrates. The lack of behavioral change or regression to pre-study status in those subjects who were least compliant to supplementation also suggest that behavioral changes were associated with intake of the LC omega-3 fatty acids.

EPA/DHA concentrate dosage adjustments themselves can be viewed as a limitation since some, but not all participants' daily intake dosage was modified at week four. The supplement intervention adjustment was based on the AA:EPA ratio, therefore those whose AA:EPA ratio dropped below the goal range was adjusted upward and by using this ratio as our goal, we also avoided most adverse events. The lack of a proper means to monitor supplement intake, such as weight of returned bottles, was also a limitation of this study. However, this was compensated for by use of isolated plasma phospholipids levels as a means to monitor protocol adherence.

Conclusion

Although this was a small one-arm study, the results are encouraging as they suggest that high-dose EPA and DHA (up to 16.2 g per day) can be given to children with good adherence. Also, our results concur with trends and significant findings of some, but not all studies of PUFA supplementation in children with ADHD or related symptoms [8,10,11]. The inconsistent findings from previous studies and our results suggest that greater dosages of EPA are needed to decrease the AA:EPA ratio to levels similar to the Japanese population and to observe significant behavioral improvements. The findings of this study suggest that children with ADHD and a high AA:EPA ratio might be responsive to treatment with EPA and DHA supplementation to bring the AA:EPA ratio to below 3.

The preliminary results found in this pilot study warrant future randomized, placebo-controlled, double blind studies that use participant's AA:EPA ratios to determine EPA/DHA supplementation dosage for adjunct treatment of ADHD in children.

Competing interests

BS is a stockholder and president of Zone Labs Inc; HLH is a stockholder and employee of Zone Labs Inc.

Authors' contributions

PJS was involved with the design of the study and carried out all psychological testing. EMH was involved with the design of the study. HLH performed the statistical analysis and drafted the manuscript. BS conceived the study and helped to draft the manuscript. All authors read and approved the final manuscript.

Acknowledgements

The Inflammation Research Foundation financially supported this study. We would like to thank Christine DeCammillis for her organizational help with the study participants at the Hallowell Center and Garrett Fitzmaurice for his statistical expertise.


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## Tall (Aug 14, 2007)

hackskii said:


> The primary fat in corn oil, linoleic acid, can convert to arachidonic acid in the body.
> 
> So, you are right that it doesn't have AA in it but it does convert to AA.


Which is why Phosphate Bond I'm sure I said the Placebo group shouldn't have been on Corn Oil as the Placebo...

Hacks - I'll have a look through the updates on this thread over the weekend - too much for my brain to handle at the moment.

This is certainly one of the most scientific threads ever...!


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## thestudbeast (Jul 20, 2007)

O.K guys easy with the studies, two reasons first up no one reads them, second nobodys putting up the parameters the studies where done under making them both out of context and useless.

I think we are starting to come to a concensus here about AA being relevant for only those defficiant and Hacks theory that those who get no results off X-Factor have already too much AA in there diet is hard to argue against.

If the molecular guys have the balls to do it they should pick at least one person who's diet is relativly high in AA and see the results.

Now as for saturated fat, the healthest countries in the world all eat good amounts of it, Japan from pork, eggs, seafood and cook in lard. The Swiss number two in the health stakes eat mainly saturated fat as their energy source. So who comes third and what do they eat? Greece and Austria, both with saturated fat heavy diets. So what don't they eat? Processed fats, refined carbs, vegtable oils!!!!!!!!!

So you can quote studies and known mechanisms but the populations of these countries are showing just how wrong and outdated that research is.

Still I'll be intested in the results as people from this side of the pond do like to say it how it is


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## ARNIE (Dec 19, 2006)

some long posts there guys with some good reading,but i think ill stick to aas according to them studies there safer.lol


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## Bulldozer (Nov 24, 2006)

winger said:


> I don't give a rats ass about studies. I eat what God put on this earth and that is meat, fruits and vegetables.


Amen to that bro


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

Bulldozer said:


> Amen to that bro


You mean someone actually reads my posts....lol.

Hey Bully, I like your other avatar better, it gives me more inflammation in the Johnson.  Maybe my AA is too high...lol


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## Bulldozer (Nov 24, 2006)

winger said:


> You mean someone actually reads my posts....lol.
> 
> Hey Bully, I like your other avatar better, it gives me more inflammation in the Johnson.  Maybe my AA is too high...lol


LOL,

She will be back soon


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Only reason why I posted some studies that were not actually relivent was for the purpose of showing how too much AA in our diets can have adverse health conciquences.

The body needs to be looked at as a hole, everything revolves around the center like an axle on a wheel.

This is diet controlled and influenced by lifestyle.

Again with the implication of too much AA causing depression, higher blood pressure, prostate cancer growing faster, excessive inflammation, among many things.

I am all for good health.

Any supplement that could potentially compromise good health for the sake of a pound or so of muscle in my opinion should be exposed for what it is.

I have no stake in this other than showing the other side of the coin.

I have no personal vendetta against anyone.

I do feel X-Factor can compromise good health and I will dig my heals in on this one.

I have done alot of reading on excess AA in the body long before this product ever hit the market, and when it did I was quite shocked honestly.

Every board I am on will get the same responce, and there have been many.

The studies may or may not be relivent, but id love to see a study that shows or suggests excess AA in the body to be anything but hazardous.

Supplementing it just sounds reckless to me.


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## phosphate bond (Dec 31, 2007)

hackskii said:


> The primary fat in corn oil, linoleic acid, can convert to arachidonic acid in the body.
> 
> So, you are right that it doesn't have AA in it but it does convert to AA.


Well Bill gave corn oil to the placebo group and they apparently were not able to convert it very well to AA so that the strong trend of lowering IL-6 was occuring.

Like I said I think it is very probable that this lowering of IL-6 was due in part to improved insulin sensitivity. (see the New England Journal of Medicine abstract for beneficial effects of AA in human muscle)

Now this "Zone Diet" theory you are talking about here is more geared towards the sedentary population that is not using their muscle actively (for an insulin lowering effect). These people are different and they have different problems with AA elsewhere in their body.

Now sometimes "generalizing" about certain effects is useful in conveying information, but then other times you really need to consider the "application" of how something is being used. I'm saying this because sometimes I think the effects can be divergent and suprising.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

You think it didnt convert well due to the fact it didnt need to?

That too much conversion would cause too much inflammation?

The body is very smart at trying to maintain homeostasis.

How was the level tested of AA to EPA, or was that not addressed?

Got news for you bro, Sears tested his diet on the Stanford University Swim team and there was marked levels of performance enhancement.

The test results were in his first book "Enter The Zone".

Good book, worth reading.

His last book was a good read too, all throughout the book he cautions about excess inflammation and AA was in that book alot.

That book is called "The Anti-Inflammation Zone"

Now for the record, I do not agree 100% with all of his work, but much of it is very promising.

I was on the Zone Diet and to be honest I got so lean I had to re-introduce way more carbs as I got pretty lean and lost no strength.

So, comming from personal expericance to some respect, pound for pound I was the strongest I ever have been in my life.

I felt fantastic too.

I dropped 25 pounds and lost zero strength if that doesnt sound hard to believe.

I am not making that up either, I have trained for 30 years.

At 37 (11 years ago), I had a smaller waist than when I was 18, I had more lean muscle mass than I was 18, I was stronger than any other time in my life.

All clean and with the use of no steroids.

I just think the area of abuse is rife with supplements and steroids, when the bottle says take one tab a day, hell most will take more. This I have a problem with if 5 pills work good, lets have 10.

Again an American diet is too high in AA anyway.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Arachidonic acid, which is found primarily in fatty red meats, egg yolks, and organ meats. This particular polyunsaturated fat may be the most dangerous fat known when consumed in excess. In fact, you can inject virtually every type of fat (even saturated fat and cholesterol) into rabbits, and nothing happens. However, if you inject arachidonic acid into the same rabbilts, they are dead within three minutes. The human body needs some arachidonic acid, but too much can be toxic. Ironically, the higher your insulin levels, the more your body is stimulated to make increased levels of arachidonic acid.

I know that was posted before but...... 

What gets me is exercises uses some AA, to come to the conclusion that athletes are defficient in AA is leading.

This is one fat that does not need to be supplemented.

In light of the fact that most people are insulin reisitant, higher insulin levels, the more stimulated the body is to make more AA.

Questions for you Phosphate:

Do you feel that too much AA in the body has zero health conciquences?

If not please explain.

If one is eating foods rich in AA (like bodybuilders do), do you really feel that AA still needs to be supplemented?

If the answer is yes why not pop a couple of eggs more in the diet?

Do you feel that the typical American (not weight lifters) have too much AA or not enough AA in their diets?


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## Tall (Aug 14, 2007)

Is AA contained in Eggs? Or does something happen when the eggs are digested which means a pre-cursor to AA is converted to AA?


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Silent Killer: The Link between Obesity and Type 2 Diabetes Dr. Barry Sears

CBN.com ? Obesity is one of the biggest generators of silent inflammation. Since nearly two-thirds of Americans are now overweight, this means that the epidemic of silent inflammation is also out of control. By the same token, our diabetes epidemic has grown by 33 percent in the last decade. It should come as no surprise that all three epidemics have worsened in recent years. All three are intricately connected with a condition known as insulin resistance.

Insulin resistance occurs when your cells become less responsive to the actions of insulin, forcing your pancreas to continuously produce more insulin to drive glucose into cells. This excess insulin (produced as that response to insulin resistance) also increases the storage of body fat. So the real question behind our current obesity epidemic is what actually causes insulin resistance?

No one knows for sure, but there is a growing opinion that the molecular cause of insulin resistance may originate in the endothelial cells. Endothelial cells form a very thin barrier that separates the bloodstream from your organs. If this barrier is not working very well, you have a condition called endothelial dysfunction, which means among other things that insulin can no longer easily pass from the bloodstream through the endothelial barrier to interact with its receptors on the cell surface. It?s only when insulin interacts with these receptors that the cell can take up glucose from the bloodstream. Any difficulty insulin has in getting to its receptors will keep blood glucose levels elevated. The body responds by pumping out still more insulin, now creating a condition known as hyperinsulinemia.

Obesity from a Different View

What if the epidemic rise in obesity in the last twenty years was not primarily due to the usual suspects (fast food, TV, junk food), but fueled by increased silent inflammation, which increases insulin resistance? This means that unless you reduce the underlying silent inflammation, any other approach to reduce obesity may be doomed to failure. This also means that simply restricting calories will not be enough to turn back our current obesity epidemic.

*I believe that obesity starts with excess arachidonic acid (AA). You can increase arachidonic acid in the bloodstream either directly by eating too much of it (it?s particularly high in fatty red meats and egg yolks) or indirectly by consuming too many high glycemic-load carbohydrates, which increase insulin production, which in turn promotes increased AA production. Either way, the body goes to great lengths to take any excess AA out of the circulation and store it away in your fat depots in an effort to keep inflammation under control. *

*
*

*
Here is where the trouble starts, because fat cells aren?t simply inert balls of lard sitting on our stomach, thighs, and hips. These cells are very active glands that can secrete out large amount of inflammation mediators if they?re given the right stimulus. As your fat cells become filled with more AA, it causes an overproduction of pro-inflammatory eicosanoids in the adipose (fatty) tissue. *

Eicosanoids play an integral role in your health. Just ask the Nobel Prize committee, which awarded the 1982 prize in medicine for the discovery of eicosanoids. They are also the most powerful hormones, since they affect the synthesis of virtually every other hormone in your body. In a sense, you can think of eicosanoids as ?super-hormones? capable of bringing great health benefits (?good? eicosanoids), or great harm (?bad? eicosanoids), depending on which one a cell produces.

Now you can probably guess what happens. These ?bad? eicosanoids induce the formation of new inflammatory mediators that spew forth from fat cells into the surrounding circulation--and generate systemic silent inflammation.

Now before you start cursing all your fat, I want to emphasize that all fat is not created equal. Some types of fat are far more harmful than others. It depends on their metabolic activity. Subcutaneous fat--the fat that collects on your hips, thighs, and buttocks and makes you look like a pear--isn?t that harmful. It may not look too good, but at least it won?t kill you, because your body is in no rush to mobilize the AA out of these fat cells. That?s why this type of fat is considered metabolically inactive. It is primarily a storage depot.

On the other hand, visceral fat can be a killer. This kind of fat collects around the abdominal organs, such as the liver, kidneys, and gallbladder and makes you look like an apple.

How do I spot visceral fat?

You may think that the easiest way to see if you have visceral fat is to look at yourself in a mirror. But this may be deceptive, because visceral fat is often found with in close contact with subcutaneous fat in the abdominal region. The real indication of the amount of your abdominal fat that is actually visceral fat is measured by either your TG/HDL ratio or your fasting insulin levels.

Visceral fat is very metabolically active and causes the constant release of stored AA into the bloodstream. This is the last place you want excess AA, since it?s then taken up by every one of your sixty trillion cells, making each one more likely to generate more pro-inflammatory eicosanoids, and therefore more silent inflammation throughout the body.

Visceral fat is even more insidious because it also continually releases other inflammatory mediators in addition to stored AA. Two of the worst are the pro-inflammatory cytokines, tumor necrosis factor (TNF), and interleukin-6 (IL-6). TNF is implicated in creating even more insulin resistance, whereas IL-6 triggers the liver to synthesize C-reactive protein (CRP), which can stimulate your white blood cells to begin to mount an inflammatory response to a potential infection (even though there isn?t one). About a third of the CRP circulating in your blood came directly from visceral fat cells. These pro-inflammatory cytokines are produced in your visceral fat as a response the increased pro-inflammatory eicosanoid production caused by increased AA levels.

This means the fatter you are (really, the more visceral fat you have), the more silent inflammation you generate. This is the smoking gun that links obesity with increased rates of heart disease, cancer, or Alzheimer?s. Anything that increases silent inflammation is going to be bad for your future.

The Diabetes Connection

Diabetes used to be a very rare disease, but times have changed. Over the last twenty years, it has become an epidemic. Okay, let me clarify this. Type 2 (adult-onset) diabetes has become an epidemic, while type 1 (juvenile) diabetes still remains relatively rare. Type 1 diabetes is caused by a condition in which the pancreas completely shuts down and fails to produce any insulin, causing blood sugar levels to spiral upward out of control. The more common type 2 (90 percent of all diabetics have this version) occurs when the patient develops long-term insulin resistance. As I mentioned above, insulin resistance causes the pancreas to secrete more insulin (hyperinsulinemia) in an effort to reduce blood glucose levels. Eventually the pancreas (really the beta cells in the pancreas) just get tired and stop producing enough excess insulin. This is called beta-cell burnout. The result is that without enough insulin becoming secreted by the pancreas, blood glucose levels begin to raise to dangerous levels. The danger comes from two factors; (a) excess glucose in the blood produces free radicals (oxidative stress), and ( B) excess glucose is neurotoxic to the brain. Hyperinsulinemia usually precedes the development of type 2 diabetes by about eight years, but they both come from increased insulin resistance. Starting to see the connection?

Obviously, not everyone who is has insulin resistance becomes a type 2 diabetic. However, enough do--there are an estimated 16 million Americans afflicted with type 2 diabetes. This devastating disease puts a person at a 2 to 4 times greater risk of dying from heart disease and also increases the likelihood of kidney failure, blindness, impotence, and amputation. Because of these expensive complications, type 2 diabetes is the most expensive of all chronic diseases, costing approximately $132 billion per year. As our obesity epidemic increases, so will the epidemic of type 2 diabetes. That?s very bad news for the health care industry.

The good news is that taking Ultra Refined high-dose fish oil to reduce silent inflammation (the molecular cause of insulin resistance) and following the Zone Diet will help reduce hyperinsulinemia (the consequence of insulin resistance) and begin to reverse type 2 diabetes in just six weeks.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

TH&S said:


> Is AA contained in Eggs? Or does something happen when the eggs are digested which means a pre-cursor to AA is converted to AA?


Eggs contain AA.

TH&S, read that article above, pretty brutal.

Suggests AA makes one fatter not leaner as implied with X-Factor.


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## diaita (Nov 30, 2007)

well ive followed some posts but this 1s intense,great read, learning loads was looking at AA in my 6th ed, great book bill


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

Well I did the zone diet too and got very lean and kept my strength too.

It's about ratios, some get it, some don't and some find it very confusing, but for me, best book I have ever read!

If diet is spot on, you will never look better!


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## Tall (Aug 14, 2007)

winger said:


> Well I did the zone diet too and got very lean and kept my strength too.
> 
> It's about ratios, some get it, some don't and some find it very confusing, but for me, best book I have ever read!
> 
> If diet is spot on, you will never look better!


Whats the basics of the Zone Diet guys?


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

TH&S said:


> Whats the basics of the Zone Diet guys?


Lower GI carbs, but you can eat the higher ones, you have to add a fat, fiber and protein.

It is basicly 40% carbs, 30% protein, and 30% fats.

The diet limits saturated fats some, endources good oils like extra virgin olive oils, and also fish oils.

Back when I did the diet I didnt have the good fats in my diet that much, he revised it some after the first book came out to include better fats.

The diet designed for each one personally depending on the amount of lean tissue and also how much training you do.

For instance, a guy with less muscle and limited exercise would take in less of each macro, but all the macro's were calculated on protein requirements.

More muscle, more protein, more exercise, more protein, then you just figure out the macro's using the percentages above.

Last meal had pretty low calories but I did notice that every day when I woke up I was leaner. He explains how the ratio's can effect fat burning even in sleep.

Hell, on that diet you can even have a beer or two, but then you cut back on the carbs and have a protein chaser......lol

Something like if you have 2 beers, eat a chicken breast.....lol

At that time I didnt drink, I payed very strict adhearance to the diet.

In the beginning I dropped too much weight too fast as I could not stay between the 1 to 2 pound loss, so I added im more food using the same percentage of macro's.

At the end I was eating 7 meals a day and still losing weight and at this point I weighed only 163 pounds, hell I am 210 today 11 years later.

I am no stronger today than back then, sure I could go on a cycle and beat the old personal bests, but I had almost unlimited energy back then.

In the end I stopped as people were telling me I was too skinny, my vascularity was freaky.

Too bad I didnt go on a cycle back then as I would have some killer pictures.

I gotta admit tho, I was getting laid more back then than anytime in my life, older and younger women, much younger.

It looked like I was younger at the end of the diet than at the start.


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## phosphate bond (Dec 31, 2007)

hackskii said:


> That too much conversion would cause too much inflammation?
> 
> The body is very smart at trying to maintain homeostasis.
> 
> How was the level tested of AA to EPA, or was that not addressed?


I can see where you are coming from (because I have read those Dr. Sear's books), but the main problem I have with his theories is that he does not address the fact that arachidonic acid is essential for proper insulin function in muscle. But then who is doing heavy labor in the "Zone"? (most people today do not lift weights or do heavy physical labor like the kind that occured 1000's of years ago)

Now if you want to lower "silent inflammation" you need to decrease insulin levels. AA is this respect helps. Like I said AA stimulates and then Downregulates cAMP (locally in muscle when released by muscle contractions). You want cAMP low in the rebound state (post exercise) because cAMP pgosphorylates glycogen synthetase and thus inactivates it. You want glycogen sythetase to be maximal if you want to lower blood sugar and store it as maximal glyogen.

Now for the record I am very optimistic about the combined use of AA with EPA/DHA (there is a specific reason why I like the combo and it has to do with the total body physiology when they are both combined). For one thing EPA/DHA have been actually shown to increase AA levels when not given in exessively high dosages. I believe this has to do with the benefical effects of EPA/DHA one one aspect of mitochondrial respiration (you absolutely need to have ATP to even get AA into muscle for example.) Yes I know what Dr. Sears says about insulin activating delta 5 desaturase, but that is not the whole story here. Insulin (in excessive amounts) also stimulates acetyl COA-carboxylase and lipogenesis (rather than ATP production) and this results in a poor distribution of any endogenously made or exogenous AA. That is probably why these folks in that Costa Rica study have so much AA as triglyceride in adipose cells rather than having AA as phospholipid on the surface on the muscle cells. Not to mention the fact that this poor ATP state results in so much release of AA elsewhere in the body. This poor ATP state is what Dr. Sears is talking about when he mentions high insulin and excessive production of bad "total body" prostaglandins.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Wow, nice post, I had to read that more than once....lol

But again, back to square one here.

Most folks have too much AA in the body.

The drop in AA in the study was used in endurance athletes.

I do doubt there are deficencies in resistance training, hell the body can manufacture AA when insulin is high.

Many, or better said, most bodybuilders have a high glycemic meal post workout, would this not give a boost in AA post workout, due to exercise causing insulin sensitivity? Not to mntion a spike in insulin from the high GI meal?

Some guys do not even gain on X-Factor, could this be the case that they either have enough or too much AA in the body already?

If so why supplement?

What is your background, I am curious?

You write well, and dont get emotional like Bill....lol

Again I have nothing against him, I do feel he is doing what he feels is right.

Time will tell here.

Anything in excess is bad, hell even water can kill you if you drink too much and that is about as safe and necessary as it gets.

Thanks for the post, I would like this thread to have the most information for and or against the supplementation of AA on the net anywhere.

Time will tell I guess if this product is totally safe like you and Bill suggest.

Dr. Sears seems to be in direct opposite here.

Really quickly, after I was supplementing 12 fish oils a day, after a few months I noticed I urinated harder with more flow. I am 48 and prostate problems is a big fear to me (and rightly so). I feel (although I cant prove it), that it was due to PG-1 and PG-3 allowing less inflammation in my prostate, allowing me to urinate better.

The prostate has one of if not the most amount of prostaglandins in the body.

Would excess AA cause me to influence BPH in a negative way?


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## Truewarrior1 (Jan 27, 2005)

damn hacks don't you read the thread  i posted this..

"As can be seen in Figure 1, both saturated and omega-6 fats convert to arachidonic acid in the body, whereas the meat itself contains arachidonic acid. One way that the body rids itself of excess arachidonic acid is by producing a dangerous enzyme called 5-lipoxygenase (5-LOX). New studies show conclusively that *5-LOX directly stimulates prostate cancer cell proliferation via several well-defined mechanisms*.2,26,30-36 In addition, arachidonic acid is metabolized by 5-LOX to 5-HETE, a potent survival factor that prostate cancer cells utilize to escape destruction.31,37-40" thats an excerpt from the third link i posted.

bills reply was..

"The level of AA in the diet has been shown to have no impact on whether or not you get cancer. It is not a carcinogen. It is a potent growth promoter, however, and like others of this class such as growth hormone, IGF-1, anabolic/androgenic steroids should never be used if you have cancer. These agents may increase the growth of cancer cells like they would normal cells."


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## Tall (Aug 14, 2007)

Truewarrior1 said:


> damn hacks don't you read the thread  i posted this..
> 
> "As can be seen in Figure 1, both saturated and omega-6 fats convert to arachidonic acid in the body, whereas the meat itself contains arachidonic acid. One way that the body rids itself of excess arachidonic acid is by producing a dangerous enzyme called 5-lipoxygenase (5-LOX). New studies show conclusively that *5-LOX directly stimulates prostate cancer cell proliferation via several well-defined mechanisms*.2,26,30-36 In addition, arachidonic acid is metabolized by 5-LOX to 5-HETE, a potent survival factor that prostate cancer cells utilize to escape destruction.31,37-40" thats an excerpt from the third link i posted.
> 
> ...





> *5-LOX directly stimulates prostate cancer cell proliferation via several well-defined mechanisms*


^^^ that means where prostate cancer cells are already in existance, 5-LOX encourages additional prostate cancer cell reproduction. This does not mean AA is a carcinogen.

So I'd say Bill was correct on that point.


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## Truewarrior1 (Jan 27, 2005)

read back on the thread i never claimed it caused cancer..i know what it means,he was correct that it isn't a cause of cancer,but it shows it accellerates it.


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

This is pretty slick, lumping it into stuff that actually does work.



> It is a potent growth promoter, however, and like others of this class such as growth hormone, IGF-1, anabolic/androgenic steroids should never be used if you have cancer.


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## ARNIE (Dec 19, 2006)

there goes slick willy again!


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

winger said:


> This is pretty slick, lumping it into stuff that actually does work.


Well, can you blame him bro, he is only trying to make a few bucksmg::love:

Now where was that study that Bill suggested they build 1 to 2 pounds of muscle a week?

How did he know that was all muscle and not fat?

Funny, many threads the guys suggest they got nothing from it.

Maybe it was fat pounds.....lol....:eek:

I would venture to say that it has its place in the vegatarian diet or mabye guys that eat no meat or eggs, other than that I see no reason to supplement AA.

Fish oils on the other hand I totally recommend supplementing daily and for ever.

My health is important to me, if I am going to jack myself I might as well use gear as this I know works, and it isnt much if any more expensive....lol......

I dont need any scientific studies backing that one up to support it, or some killer media hype either.....haaa haaaaa


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## thestudbeast (Jul 20, 2007)

So how much AA is optimal according to molecular? For example should a vegan take more x-factor than a meat eater and should someone on the anabolic diet take less or none at all.

So simple equation of: amount in diet + X-factor dose = optimal amount

How much AA should we have according to you guys?


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## phosphate bond (Dec 31, 2007)

thestudbeast said:


> So how much AA is optimal according to molecular? For example should a vegan take more x-factor than a meat eater and should someone on the anabolic diet take less or none at all.
> 
> So simple equation of: amount in diet + X-factor dose = optimal amount
> 
> How much AA should we have according to you guys?


It is tough to say but that 1 gram per day of AA Bill gave to the experimental group did show "strong trending" reductions in IL-6 (IL-6 levels correlate with silent inflammation)

So I think there may be something to giving additional AA (beyond the typical diet) to people as long as people are weight training.

Keep in mind there is a lot of talk about omega 6 to three ratios here, but if you look on page 56 (or is it page 64) of Udo Erasmus's book "The fats that Heal, the fats that Kill" you will see that these ratios are upside down in wild meat. Wild meat actually has less saturated fat, but a stronger AA:EPA/DHA ratio. Wild meat and heavy physical exercise is what humans have evolved on so consider this with any argument here. Saturated fat does impact insulin secretion and insulin resistance also (not to mention silent inflammation if either of these two get out of hand)

Like I was saying you definitely need series 2 prostaglandins (from localized muscle contractions) if you ever hope to activate glycogen sythetase. (stimulating CAMP to break down glycogen and then eventually lowering cAMP allows that enzyme to work correctly)


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Lets not demonize saturated fats here, many feel they have a bad rap and this has perpetuated myth's over the years to make saturated fats the bad guy.

Yes they can effect blood sugar levels, but all foods eaten together determine the glycemic load of that meal.

There are in fact more than a dozen different types of saturated fat, but you predominantly consume only three: stearic acid, palmitic acid and lauric acid.

It's already been well established that stearic acid (found in cocoa and animal fat) has zero effect on your cholesterol levels, and actually gets converted in your liver into the monounsaturated fat called oleic acid.

The other two, palmitic and lauric acid, do raise total cholesterol. However, since they raise "good" cholesterol as much or more than "bad" cholesterol, you're still actually lowering your risk of heart disease.


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## phosphate bond (Dec 31, 2007)

hackskii said:


> Lets not demonize saturated fats here, many feel they have a bad rap and this has perpetuated myth's over the years to make saturated fats the bad guy.
> 
> Yes they can effect blood sugar levels, but all foods eaten together determine the glycemic load of that meal.
> 
> ...


Saturated fats are only "bad" for people who have a supply and demand problem. Anytime excess free fatty acids are in the bloodstream they affect the secretion of insulin at the pancreas (resulting in a delayed but over-secretion curve when in the presence of glucose at the same time).

Now bodybuilders do not normally have this problem because they have large muscles (high demand for oxidizing fat) and low adipose levels (low supply of fat). Now in this case any saturated fats eaten will do usually cause a rise in plasma levels of fatty acids (because they are oxidized or disposed of promptly)

What we are talking about here is the average american (a target of the Zone Diet). These people are the reverse and high satuared fat affects them differently than someone Bodybuilding. For one thing they have higher insulin levels and thus acetly-COA carboylase is activated in muscle (rather than oxidative phosphorylation). For this reason they have a hard time converting fatty acids into ATP (malonyl COA produced from Acetyl COA carboylase blocks carnitine from transporting fatty acid into the mitochondria)

In these cases (because of excess saturated fat relative to their ability to oxidize it) there can be a set-up scenario for hyperinsulinemia and silent inflammation. Then all this Dr. Barry Sears "bad prostaglandins" stuff kicks in because of the poor energy state resulting from the hyperinsulinemia.

Its not Arachidonic acid that causes "silent inflammation" it is a poor energy state that causes it. You can't repair anything without ATP and the cells in your body know this. That is why they send out all these little messanger chemicals like IL-6 to help correct the situation.

That is the irony about obese people (targeted by the Zone Diet) is that they are over-eating, but are poorly converting there food into energy.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

The reason why I posted that was because you were giving the impression that we should avoid saturated fats and supplement AA, I guess this is part of your arguement to lower saturated fats in the diet and increase AA for those that lift weights.

Same can be made for saturated fats along with meats that in weight lifters I do not believe that AA needs to be supplemented.

Bill on another post on this thread talked about cholesterol from eggs could be a problem.

I disagree. Overall cholesterol is effected but not the ratio of HDL to LDL, thus overall risk is not a factor.

I am aware that saturated fats have an impact on insulin, but fish oils and olive oil have a neutral effect. Not only that but fiber slows digestion lowering spiking of blood sugar as well as insulin spiking.

So, a diet that has meat, vegetable fiber, and some good oil wont be an issue with insulin responce, as the glycemic load wont be much of a factor, even for those that dont exercise. Fish oils aid better than any other fat for insulin sensitivity.

Also for those just sitting on the couch burn almost all fat and hardly any glucose/glycogen.

Even ketogenic diets like Atkins work exceptionally well for the couch potato. I have no problem with fats, I do feel that the problem really lies in simple sugars, processed foods, transfats and hydgrogenated oils, not saturated fats.

Some of the most energy I ever had (with the exception of the zone), was on a ketogenic diet.

high fat diets are not the problem, high fat diets with diet high in carbohydrates is a problem, and for most low fat diets are not healthy.

I dont think eating saturated fats makes one prone to hyperinsulinemia.

Sears suggests against Saturated fats, but that is about one of the only positions that I do not agree with him on.

Many studies Atkins posted suggested in better lipid profiles on a ketogenic diet. At least in the beginning anyway....lol


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## thestudbeast (Jul 20, 2007)

Yes some interesting points Scott, it's amazing how our countries with such poor health try to put the blame on saturated fat. As our diets have changed to vegtable fats and refined carbs so our health has plumeted to all time lows. Yet the top 4 countries in the health stakes all eat diets rich in saturated fat.

If you look at the Insulin index you clearly see that products high in saturated fat like beef can not be compared to refined carbs in terms of insulin release and it is the combo like Hack's mentioned of saturated fat and refined carbs that give the large sustained release of insulin. This has been proven in practice by the anabolic diet, Vince Gironda's teachings, the plaeo diet etc etc.

I think the most conclusive exidence of wether AA should be in our diets will be to look at what our ansesters (sp) ate like PB has hinted at. The problem is knowing how much AA would have been in wild meat. Remember that organ meat was given priority in hunter gatherer times, in fact when a pack of wolves or lions catch a prey the first thing they go for is the liver and organ meats. Eggs again would have been eaten along with red meat, so the sources would have been there. If AA is present in reasonable quantities in wild animals livers it will no doubt turn out all the boffins have got it wrong again!


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

Bump for Bill!


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## Tall (Aug 14, 2007)

winger said:


> Bump for Bill!


My sentiments exactly...


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## Tinytom (Sep 16, 2005)

This thread is fcuking awesome.!!!!!

wealth of info I never knew.

Cheers guys


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

*This study looks familiar.*

J Int Soc Sports Nutr. 2007 Nov 28;4(1):21 [Epub ahead of print] Links

Effects of arachidonic acid supplementation on training adaptations in resistance-trained males.Roberts MD, Iosia M, Kerksick CM, Taylor LW, Campbell B, Wilborn CD, Harvey T, Cooke M, Rasmussen C, Greenwood M, Wilson R, Jitomir J, Willoughby D, Kreider RB.

ABSTRACT: BACKGROUND: To determine the impact of AA supplementation during resistance training on body composition, training adaptations, and markers of muscle hypertrophy in resistance-trained males. METHODS: In a randomized and double blind manner, 31 resistance-trained male subjects (22.1 +/- 5.0 yrs, 180.0 +/- 0.1 cm, 86.1 +/- 13.0 kg, 18.1 +/- 6.4% body fat) ingested either a placebo (PLA: 1 g * d-1 corn oil, n = 16) or AA (AA: 1 g * d-1 AA, n = 15) while participating in a standardized 4d * wk-1 resistance training regimen. Fasting blood samples, body composition, bench press one-repetition maximum (1RM), leg press 1RM and Wingate anaerobic capacity sprint tests were completed after 0, 25, and 50 days of supplementation. Percutaneous muscle biopsies were taken from the vastus lateralis on days 0 and 50. RESULTS: Wingate relative peak power was significantly greater after 50 days of supplementation while the inflammatory cytokine IL-6 was significantly lower after 25 days of supplementation in the AA group. PGE2 levels tended to be greater in the AA group. No significant differences were observed between groups in body composition, strength, anabolic and catabolic hormones, or markers of muscle hypertrophy (i.e., total protein content or MHC type I, IIa, and IIx protein content) and other intramuscular markers (i.e., FP and EP3 receptor activity or MHC type I, IIa, and IIx mRNA expression). CONCLUSIONS: AA supplementation during resistance-training may enhance anaerobic capacity and lessen the inflammatory response to training. However, *AA supplementation does not promote greater gains in strength, muscle mass, or influence markers of muscle hypertrophy.*


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## phosphate bond (Dec 31, 2007)

hackskii said:


> I am aware that saturated fats have an impact on insulin, but fish oils and olive oil have a neutral effect. Fish oils aid better than any other fat for insulin sensitivity.


Fish oils definitely lower insulin secretion (evidenced by reduced C-petide levels) but not blood sugar in type II diabetics. So I am not sure how they are helping with glucose disposal. You can improve insulin sensitivity two ways. One ways is to lower insulin secretion. The Other way is to improve insulin action. Ideally you want both effects. This is why some books I have seen have recommended caution for people people with diabetes to take Fish oil (in high amounts). You can find the actual studies on Pubmed. Some are conflicting as usual but the info is there.

Now some of these diets like Atkins have a lot of saturated fat in them, but not lots of glucose at the same time. Its when you combine carbs with saturated fat that insulin resistance can be a problem when energy expenditure is lower than intake.


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## thestudbeast (Jul 20, 2007)

phosphate bond said:


> Now some of these diets like Atkins have a lot of saturated fat in them, but not lots of glucose at the same time. Its when you combine carbs with saturated fat that insulin resistance can be a problem when energy expenditure is lower than intake.


The type of carb is also an issue, for example the Japs eat rice and pork/eggs together and don't suffer and the swiss eat dairy lactose/saturated fat with out negative health consiquences (they are the top two healthiest countries in the world)

But in general we agree on this topic.

Is it Moleculars position that AA is inflamitory in the muscle during exersize and then works as an anti inflamitory there after?


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Or better asked, why were the muscle biopsies not taken immediatly after training, instead of a fasting state 48 hours after exercise in the Baylor Study?

Surely this would have a huge impact on the outcome?

Why assume that AA was responsible solely for the lowering of IL-6?


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## phosphate bond (Dec 31, 2007)

thestudbeast said:


> Is it Moleculars position that AA is inflamitory in the muscle during exersize and then works as an anti inflamitory there after?


Anytime you reduce insulin levels (long term) you are improving "silent inflammation". However, that doesn't mean that there can't be short term inflammatory effects.


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## thestudbeast (Jul 20, 2007)

phosphate bond said:


> Anytime you reduce insulin levels (long term) you are improving "silent inflammation". However, that doesn't mean that there can't be short term inflammatory effects.


I wasn't doubting the fact, it's just a different understanding than when the product was first released


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Diet is the number one factor of silent inflammation, insulin resistance, and overall good or bad health, exercise number two and supplementation number three, although lifestyle does play a heafty part (alcohol, drugs, sleep, stress, hell even age).


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

phosphate bond said:


> Fish oils definitely lower insulin secretion (evidenced by reduced C-petide levels) but not blood sugar in type II diabetics. So I am not sure how they are helping with glucose disposal. You can improve insulin sensitivity two ways. One ways is to lower insulin secretion. The Other way is to improve insulin action. Ideally you want both effects. This is why some books I have seen have recommended caution for people people with diabetes to take Fish oil (in high amounts). You can find the actual studies on Pubmed. Some are conflicting as usual but the info is there.
> 
> Now some of these diets like Atkins have a lot of saturated fat in them, but not lots of glucose at the same time. Its when you combine carbs with saturated fat that insulin resistance can be a problem when energy expenditure is lower than intake.


This guys is a beast. phosphate bond, I will read every one of your posts from hell to high water!

Oh, just because most are not posting doesn't mean we aren't reading your quality posts. 

Ok, getting off leg now.


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## Tall (Aug 14, 2007)

Bump for Bill...


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## Truewarrior1 (Jan 27, 2005)

let's face it,bill's not posting again,he got emotional and felt personally attacked.so he sent someone who could actually argue the science side of things and not take it personal.i for one prefer this thread now that it's just the science side of it.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

I think Bill's intentions were good, I think he thinks his intentions were good.

Just in the big picture of things, excess inflammation is something that is not needed nor welcomed for good health.

I have read allot on this subject and this product has a small group that can safely cycle it and not worry about health consequences.

Not to mention it is expensive and is readily available in the Typical American and British diets, even in excess.

What kind of got me though is his assertion that gains of 1 to 2 pounds a week were the norm, he posted no study to confirm this. I have read a lot on other sites and many of the guys got nothing from the product.

That and the fact that Bill not only designed the product, but has a stake in endorsing, and defending it.

It is no wonder he got defensive and took it personal.

There is no way you can have one study using a small group of guys and come to any type of conclusion, of its safety or its effectiveness. Long term health consequences take time to manifest.

If I want to gain some size and strength I will just do a cycle of gear, hell it is about the same price anyway and I know what the sides and gains are&#8230;.lol


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