# T3, Glycogen & Flat Muscles



## Contest (Oct 4, 2011)

Hi all,

Was wondering whether some of the more experienced/scientific folks can help me out by answering a few questions regarding T3.


Does T3 deplete muscle glycogen?

Does T3 cause muscles to appear flat due to muscle glycogen depletion?

When coming off T3, does the dose have to be tapered down or can you come straight off without any rebound effect?

Is there any point in using Kelp when coming off T3?


I have been on 100mcg of T3 for a very long time now & have noticed that the appearance of my muscles have been looking quite flat & this is especially noticeable on my arms. My body-fat % is quite low & I have been on AAS the whole time whilst using T3.

My carb intake has also not been especially low with me cycling between 185g, 320g & 490g currently but I still can't help but feel flat and deflated. At no point during my T3 usage have my carbs dropped below 120g and I've always incorporated 2 high carb days in my diet which have been 460g+.

Hope someone can shed some light on this topic & advise me on what I should do from here.

@Pscarb

@Mars

@dtlv


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## Sambuca (Jul 25, 2012)

interested to know points 1. and 2.


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

Contest said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Was wondering whether some of the more experienced/scientific folks can help me out by answering a few questions regarding T3.
> 
> ...


T3 will interfere with carbing up, so you could assume that it could make you flat but this would differ from person to person.....

there is no point in tapering T3 as your natty levels will still be suppressed no matter the dose, rebound will happen but it is not as bad as many would think and Kelp will help....


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## Tinytom (Sep 16, 2005)

If your protein isn't very high then the t3 could be depleting muscle tissue.

I vaguely remember a short article by a contest prep guy years ago where he would add extra protein every time he increased t3 regardless of the carbs and fats. That was the reason he gave.


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## Tinytom (Sep 16, 2005)

Also I remember an Australian guy who was being prepped by milos who mistakenly was taking a compound with 1000mcg of t3 total.

He was so stringy (still huge though but muscles looked bad) that milos had to give him stuff like Maccy Ds to get more calories in as his muscles were literally wasting away.


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## paul xe (Sep 24, 2011)

Tinytom said:


> Also I remember an Australian guy who was being prepped by milos who mistakenly was taking a compound with 1000mcg of t3 total.
> 
> He was so stringy (still huge though but muscles looked bad) that milos had to give him stuff like Maccy Ds to get more calories in as his muscles were literally wasting away.


Good job he wasn't on DNP then!

On subject, both times I've used T3 I've definitely noticed a flatter look to myself. No a massive change, but certainly there and very demoralising at times!


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## Contest (Oct 4, 2011)

Pscarb said:


> T3 will interfere with carbing up, so you could assume that it could make you flat but this would differ from person to person.....
> 
> there is no point in tapering T3 as your natty levels will still be suppressed no matter the dose, rebound will happen but it is not as bad as many would think and Kelp will help....


I feel this is happening to me mate as I have gone up to 800g of carbs some days but still feel and look sh*t.

How much Kelp would you recommend? Would 60mg suffice?



Tinytom said:


> If your protein isn't very high then the t3 could be depleting muscle tissue.
> 
> I vaguely remember a short article by a contest prep guy years ago where he would add extra protein every time he increased t3 regardless of the carbs and fats. That was the reason he gave.


My protein is always around the 500g mark but I don't think its helped lol.


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## Contest (Oct 4, 2011)

@Pscarb

@Tinytom

In your guys opinion, is it best I come off T3 cold turkey or should I drop the dose to something more sensible such as 50mcg and carry on using it?

I've read that T3 aids in protein synthesis but I don't know how true this is.


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## Tinytom (Sep 16, 2005)

500g of protein a day? How big are you?


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## marknorthumbria (Oct 1, 2009)

I feel MUCH smaller and worse with clen opposed to t3,

t3 doesnt really flatten me THAT much.

clen has me feeling about as big as a 7 year old girl


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## Contest (Oct 4, 2011)

Tinytom said:


> 500g of protein a day? How big are you?


This big lol...



I'm 90kg and quite lean I'd say.

When I count macros, I count every gram from everything I eat mate be it even a gram or two from vegetables. Same with when counting carbs and fats. I know Pscarb however only counts the main macro-nutrient from his food sources.


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## Tinytom (Sep 16, 2005)

Contest said:


> This big lol...
> 
> View attachment 136235
> 
> ...


Good.

2000cals from protein is a lot and requires a lot of water to process.

Be interesting to see your diet have you got it on a PDF or something you can upload.


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## mlc2010 (Apr 2, 2012)

I was under impression that t3 speeds up protein synthesis, is this true?


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## Contest (Oct 4, 2011)

Tinytom said:


> Good.
> 
> 2000cals from protein is a lot and requires a lot of water to process.
> 
> Be interesting to see your diet have you got it on a PDF or something you can upload.


I have indeed mate. I'm very particular about logging my diet and training.

Will PM you my diet now 

I don't compete or anything and everything I have done is from reading/research and trial and error.


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## Rick89 (Feb 27, 2009)

of no use to this thread what so ever but looking awesome contest great condition and shape pal


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## Contest (Oct 4, 2011)

Rick89 said:


> of no use to this thread what so ever but looking awesome contest great condition and shape pal


Cheers mate


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## marknorthumbria (Oct 1, 2009)

Tinytom said:


> Good.
> 
> 2000cals from protein is a lot and requires a lot of water to process.
> 
> Be interesting to see your diet have you got it on a PDF or something you can upload.


im 480g p , 420g p train/non train days respectively. at say 93kg

sometimes i wonder if its too high but its been 400+ for two years, keep water 5L+ ED

@Contest - look awesome m8


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## Tinytom (Sep 16, 2005)

Diet looks good to me mate.

I would make the following changes.

Firstly you are training each body part twice a week. That can end in over training and your CNS and thyroid output can get suppressed from that.

I'd change as follows.

Mon tue train

Wed rest

Thur fri train

Sat rest and cheat day

Sunday weak body part day.

Workouts as follows

Chest

Shoulders

Back/traps

Quads

Hams/calves

Arms

Focus on just one body part per session. You'll see that there's 2 many days to fit into one week so you'll have to carry over into the next week.

This accomplishes 2 things

1. It gives you variation in your schedule allowing for a different stimulus and adaption would be required by the body.

2. It allows more rest for your body for body parts and makes your workout schedule more interesting.

Stick to 45 mins max for weight training.

I'd also reduce the cardio back to 30 mins.

Drop the t3 down to 50mcg. You'll see a slight gain in weight while you adjust but then as your metabolic rate slows down slightly your body can start to fill out more

Add in supplements like krill oil and vitamin d3 to increase metabolic rate naturally and boost immune system.


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## Tinytom (Sep 16, 2005)

As a reference I only have about 300-350g max protein a day.

I only use 25mcg t3 a day.


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## Contest (Oct 4, 2011)

@Tinytom

Cheers for all the useful info mate, I really appreciate it 

My workouts at the moment never exceed 45 minutes excl. cardio though Saturdays are longer as I enjoy deadlifting very heavy and require sufficient rest between sets. This is pretty much the day I completely blow my CNS by deadlifting up to 260kg.

I read this article about myo-reps and have really been enjoying working out in this manner. I pick 3 exercises for each body part and blast out a myo-set which means my workouts end up being quite short but very intense. Its almost a bit like Dorian's HIIT protocol.

Myo-set days I rest 20 seconds between each set and straight set days I rest no more than 45-60 seconds. I was always a volume guy before but hit a major plateau and working out in a HIIT manner helped me a fair bit breaking through this plateau.

Do you feel that shorter, low volume but intense workouts can still lead to over-training and a suppression of the CNS and thyroid output?

If you're currently using 25mcg T3, shall I drop it down to that dose as well mate? You're in awesome shape so I imagine if 25mcg is good enough for u, it should be fine for me as well lol.

What's your carb intake like mate? Like I've mentioned, there have been days where I've had 800g of oats through the day and hit like 8000Kcals but still haven't felt satisfied in terms of hunger or looked fuller the next day. Obviously seems this is down to the excessive T3 usage.

Once again, cheers for your advice mate.


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## Contest (Oct 4, 2011)

marknorthumbria said:


> im 480g p , 420g p train/non train days respectively. at say 93kg
> 
> sometimes i wonder if its too high but its been 400+ for two years, keep water 5L+ ED
> 
> @Contest - look awesome m8


Cheers mate. You look in awesome shape and condition yourself. I've always kept my protein fairly high and I drink a shed load of water through the day mainly to keep cravings at bay lol.

I think my issue is that I do everything in excess be it protein intake, gear usage, carb refeeds or training lol.


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

agree with tom on the overtraining but i have said this before  plus you do alot of cardio as well........i think this is the issue not necessarily the T3 (although this will not be helping)



Contest said:


> @Pscarb
> 
> @Tinytom
> 
> ...


why would you need to carry on using it? what do you want to gain? if you want to come off of it then come off, if you don't then don't what i mean is lowering it will not benefit the thyroid gland at all it will remain suppressed


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

Contest said:


> @Tinytom
> 
> Cheers for all the useful info mate, I really appreciate it
> 
> ...


it is the frequency of the high intensity workouts that will smash the CNS over time not the length of the workout


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## Contest (Oct 4, 2011)

Pscarb said:


> agree with tom on the overtraining but i have said this before  plus you do alot of cardio as well........i think this is the issue not necessarily the T3 (although this will not be helping)
> 
> why would you need to carry on using it? what do you want to gain? if you want to come off of it then come off, if you don't then don't what i mean is lowering it will not benefit the thyroid gland at all it will remain suppressed


I've read that a small amount of T3 can aid in protein synthesis but I'm not 100% on this mate. Maybe you can shed some light on this topic as its much debated 

It's true I do a lot of cardio but as its LISS on a stationary bike, would/can it still cause adverse effects? Its low impact and doesn't damage muscle fibres the same way that jogging or incline treadmill walking can. Once again I may be wrong about this as well.

My goal is to get rid of this flat look and fill out. Would also b nice to gain some more lean muscle and I'm pretty sure I can keep fat and body-fat % low via cardio and clean eating. Even on low carb days my Kcals are still fairly high (3300Kcal). On medium days its 4300Kcal and 5300Kcal on high but it seems I'm just maintaining my look on these numbers.


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## Contest (Oct 4, 2011)

Pscarb said:


> it is the frequency of the high intensity workouts that will smash the CNS over time not the length of the workout


Cheers for that mate, I wasn't aware of that. I was under the assumption that low volume, high intensity training was much easier on the CNS and that it was high volume training that would smash it.


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

It is intensity this can be from many things like volume, days training or weight used what you need to ask is when are you letting your body recover??


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## Contest (Oct 4, 2011)

Pscarb said:


> It is intensity this can be from many things like volume, days training or weight used what you need to ask is when are you letting your body recover??


Currently only when I sleep and Thursdays when I take the whole day off from weights and cardio :innocent:

Do you also run a small amount of T3 through your cycles line Tinytom mate? I know you've used 100mcg+ doses in the past but did you ever notice any flattening of your muscles when you were on high doses?


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

Contest said:


> Currently only when I sleep and Thursdays when I take the whole day off from weights and cardio :innocent:
> 
> Do you also run a small amount of T3 through your cycles line Tinytom mate? I know you've used 100mcg+ doses in the past but did you ever notice any flattening of your muscles when you were on high doses?


i do run a small amount when on cycle mainly, i have run higher than 100mcg but not often but i have run 100mcg for a full year as for feeling flat i could not tell as i only use T3 in those amounts when i am dieting for a show and i feel flat all the time then anyway 

the T3 may be contributing to the flatness but i really think your 6 days a week training high intensity along with cardio (no matter the type) is certainly not helping.....


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## Pictor (Jan 10, 2011)

Pscarb said:


> T3 will interfere with carbing up, so you could assume that it could make you flat but this would differ from person to person.....
> 
> there is no point in tapering T3 as your natty levels will still be suppressed no matter the dose, rebound will happen but it is not as bad as many would think and Kelp will help....


Slightly off topic, but do you avoid or keep your vitamin c seperate from your Kelp/Iodine as I've read they can interfer with each other affecting absorption!


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## Sambuca (Jul 25, 2012)

how beneficial is it running t3 on cycle say in a bulk?

from my own experience which is limited i am not sure if i would run any cycle with out some t3. but after reading this im now unsure. lol :confused1:

currently bulking and putting weight on but staying lean so im happy. If I came off t3 i presume even with a clean diet some fat would come on. but would i gain more muscle wise still as i feel t3 has helped?

that makes little sense but basically use t3 on cycle or not lol and if so is 50mcg (WC UGL) suitable while bulking (yes yes UGL T3 could be any dose but i personally couldnt tell the difference from the pharma i had -_- )


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## Tinytom (Sep 16, 2005)

Paul's pretty much covered my response with his posts.

I'd say 25mcg a day is beneficial for gaining on a lean mass course/diet. I always have a high protein meal at the same time I have my t3 in the morning.


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## Sambuca (Jul 25, 2012)

Tinytom said:


> Paul's pretty much covered my response with his posts.
> 
> I'd say 25mcg a day is beneficial for gaining on a lean mass course/diet. I always have a high protein meal at the same time I have my t3 in the morning.


cheers tom


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## Pictor (Jan 10, 2011)

Tinytom said:


> Paul's pretty much covered my response with his posts.
> 
> I'd say 25mcg a day is beneficial for gaining on a lean mass course/diet. I always have a high protein meal at the same time I have my t3 in the morning.


So you can take T3 with food when using it in a lean bulk then mate, or do you still wait 20-30 mins after before eating?!


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## Sambuca (Jul 25, 2012)

Big Ste said:


> So you can take T3 with food when using it in a lean bulk then mate, or do you still wait 20-30 mins after before eating?!


i normally take mine then jump in the shower get ready etc then have 6 scrambled eggs with coconut oil and GI free bread lol 

the science i have read says empty stomach for 20mins but ive taken with my breakfast and without never felt different but wether it is as effective i dont know


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## Pictor (Jan 10, 2011)

Sambuca said:


> i normally take mine then jump in the shower get ready etc then have 6 scrambled eggs with coconut oil and GI free bread lol
> 
> the science i have read says empty stomach for 20mins but ive taken with my breakfast and without never felt different but wether it is as effective i dont know


I've always taking it first thing on waking and leave 20-30 mins before eating, but this is taking 100mcg/day and cutting! Not sure if you still take it on empty stomach or not when not cutting?!


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## Tinytom (Sep 16, 2005)

I take around 10 minutes after food.

I take all my pills with food as over the years I've found that better


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## Contest (Oct 4, 2011)

@Tinytom @Pscarb

I've read that the human body naturally produces about 25mcg of T3 itself so would 25mcg of exogenous T3 be of any benefit lads?

Seems on US boards people are taking doses as low as 6.25mcg lol.

I shall b dropping my dose down tomorrow to 50mcg and if that doesn't help then I shall drop it down to 25mcg. If that doesn't help either I'll come off completely and will tune my training as I may b overtraining.

Thanks once again for the advice fellas.


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

Contest said:


> @Tinytom @Pscarb
> 
> I've read that the human body naturally produces about 25mcg of T3 itself so would 25mcg of exogenous T3 be of any benefit lads?
> 
> ...


the body when primed and at top health may release this amount but this differs from person to person, but many things effect the thyroid gland steroids, digestion, food types etc.....so basing anything on what the average person releases is irrelevant as for the US boards they are full of normal gym members like this one what dose they are using and why that dose would be unique to them.....

my advise to you is to stop the T3 then get some bloods done in 4 & 8 weeks to know where your natural levels stand then go from there with dosing


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## reza85 (Jan 11, 2009)

U are in insane shape mate do u have any other pics ?


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## Contest (Oct 4, 2011)

reza85 said:


> U are in insane shape mate do u have any other pics ?


This was taken a couple of months prior to the other pic mate...


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## Contest (Oct 4, 2011)

@Pscarb @Tinytom

Ignore my ignorance boys but can you explain to me how cardio may be a contributing factor in my flatter look?

I'm a little confused as I was under the impression that LISS cardio would primarily burn calories from fat and spare muscle glycogen. Also, as it's low intensity, I was also under the impression that this would fall under general conditioning meaning it could be done on a daily basis without ill effect.

I'm also not in a calorie deficit by the way (minimum calories being 3300 on a low carb days, 4300 on medium and 5300 on high).

I've dropped my T3 dose down from 100mcg to 25mcg. I shall assess my progress and appearance over the month and if nothing changes, I'll be coming off all together. Fingers crossed it was the T3 to blame lol.


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

Contest said:


> @Pscarb @Tinytom
> 
> Ignore my ignorance boys but can you explain to me how cardio may be a contributing factor in my flatter look?
> 
> ...


it is not as simple as LISS burns more calories from fat than glycogen to be fair, is it fasted cardio??

on its own LISS would not make you flat but you are doing this on top of 6 days a week high intensity training, you are not looking at the big picture you are focusing on only one part (cardio).....it is simple if you are not in a defecit and you are taking in a decent amount of carbs(which you are) then something is wrong for you to feel flat this cannot be argued, T3 would not cause this to this degree in my opinion so it leads to that you are not resting enough.

to be honest i see no rhyme or reason to train this much and do cardio..........


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## Contest (Oct 4, 2011)

Pscarb said:


> it is not as simple as LISS burns more calories from fat than glycogen to be fair, is it fasted cardio??
> 
> on its own LISS would not make you flat but you are doing this on top of 6 days a week high intensity training, you are not looking at the big picture you are focusing on only one part (cardio).....it is simple if you are not in a defecit and you are taking in a decent amount of carbs(which you are) then something is wrong for you to feel flat this cannot be argued, T3 would not cause this to this degree in my opinion so it leads to that you are not resting enough.
> 
> to be honest i see no rhyme or reason to train this much and do cardio..........


In the mornings (Mon - Fri) its fasted but with BCAA's (I know some don't consider this fasted).

In the evenings (6x per week) it's 30 minutes post-workout (workouts being 30-45 minutes).

In terms of sleep I get a minimum of 6 hours and a max of 8 hours during the week. On weekends I'll get a minimum of 8 hours.

I think I just have an addiction to training and being active lol. I keep doing cardio to maintain a low body-fat % and to generally keep up my fitness level and hit the weights to maximize muscle mass.

I've read that carb re-feeds are completely negated when using T3 in high doses. Is there any truth in this mate? A few competing bodybuilders I have spoken to have told me that they always drop T3 usage a few weeks prior to comp day as they simply cannot fill out otherwise no matter how many carbs they consume.


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

Contest said:


> In the mornings (Mon - Fri) its fasted but with BCAA's (I know some don't consider this fasted).
> 
> In the evenings (6x per week) it's 30 minutes post-workout (workouts being 30-45 minutes).
> 
> ...


so 5 days a week you do it twice a day.... 

taken from my article in the BEEF about Myths in Bodybuilding:



> RER is a measure for what macronutrients (Carbohydrates or Fats) our body is utilising during the workout as energy. The higher the RER, the more carbohydrates the body is using for fuel. The lower the RER, the more fat the body is using as fuel.
> 
> As stated above RER shows if more carbohydrates or fats are being used as the energy source for exercise, many believe that fasted cardio will use more fats than carbohydrates because they are in a fasted state. But research has clearly proven this to be FALSE!!!!! Fasted cardio actually burns more carbohydrates than fats. Basically,
> 
> YOU WILL NOT BURN MORE STORED FAT DOING FASTED CARDIO!!!!!!


doing LISS in my opinion will not keep fitness levels up to any degree especially seeing it is very low impact cardio (HIIT cardio will increase fitness more)

are carb refeeds completely negated when using T3 HELL No as i have said in a few posts thyroid meds will effect carbing up but it does not negate the action......competitors normally drop it because they want every tiny miniscule of carb to go in i have used it all the way to the show and yes there is a slight difference but it is not vast....


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## Contest (Oct 4, 2011)

Pscarb said:


> so 5 days a week you do it twice a day....
> 
> taken from my article in the BEEF about Myths in Bodybuilding:
> 
> ...


Yes mate, 5 days a week I do LISS cardio twice a day (fasted in the AM + PWO).

Didn't realize you wrote an article for the BEEF. That's well cool mate 

In terms of fasted cardio, does the intensity of the cardio performed affect RER? I'm still baffled on why so many pro's still swear by fasted cardio and use it as one of their primarily tools to cut down on body-fat for competitions.

I was doing HIIT as well but after a few weeks I felt very fatigued and felt it was affecting my weight training sessions so dropped it all together. LISS however I find quite comfortable and the morning AM sessions really help in improving my focus and getting my day started.

Got my stationary bike parked next to my bed so as soon as the alarm goes off, I jump straight out of the bed onto the bike lol.


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

i write a column for the BEEF mate have done for 4yrs....

i am not saying LISS is not effective at dropping fat it is i use it often what i am saying is in response to you saying it uses more fat for energy than carbs, nothing is that simple.....

your issue in my opinion is the amount you are doing on top of 6 days training.......i don't know how to say it in any other way??


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## Contest (Oct 4, 2011)

Pscarb said:


> i write a column for the BEEF mate have done for 4yrs....
> 
> i am not saying LISS is not effective at dropping fat it is i use it often what i am saying is in response to you saying it uses more fat for energy than carbs, nothing is that simple.....
> 
> your issue in my opinion is the amount you are doing on top of 6 days training.......i don't know how to say it in any other way??


Cheers for the info mate. I'll be the first to admit I can be very stubborn at times :lol:

I want you to tell me; "You can do all the weight training and cardio you want and it'll be fine". - But I know this is not the case as you've pointed out kindly. I wish it was the T3 to blame as opposed to the over-training :sad:

When coming off T3, should you watch your carb intake to prevent a nasty rebound? When on T3 I could get away with very large amounts of carbs but I imagine this wouldn't be the case when I come off.

Also, will have to start reading the BEEF more often :thumb:


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## rectus (Jan 18, 2012)

@Mars can chime in on whether T3 works for increased protein synthesis, I don't want to misquote him


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