# How much protein do we REALLY need?



## Mitch. (Jul 26, 2011)

I am a sports science student and recently had a nutrition lecture on protein metabolism.

It got me questioning a lot of what is preached on here about how much protein we need.

I read a lot from guys saying 'get protein up to AT LEAST 300g per day' and I have done this myself.

A lot of the content of the lecture is backed by research and says that we only need around 1.7g/kg for a trained athlete. For me this would only be 137g.

The rest is just broken down and urinated out.

I understand for steroids users the body can metabolise more protein but surely not double at the very least?

We also looked at studies identifying the optimal protein intake amount after exercise. I normally have 50g of whey whenever I have a shake but studies show the optimal amount is 20g immediately after. The extra benefit between 20g-40g is not significant.

I can post some info from the research if anyone wants to see it but basically asking is there any evidence to show we need such excessive amounts of protein or is it just information passed down from those who thought they knew to us today?

Are we wasting money on using too much whey?

This is not about calorie intake, just protein intake.


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## Mitch. (Jul 26, 2011)

Flinty you were the only view before this got shoved down!

Maybe I should have titled it 'Angelina Jolie naked picture leaked!'.


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## Mighty.Panda (Oct 5, 2011)

I would be interested to hear opinions here too. I dont use whey anymore as I really cant afford it. I find it hard getting the 200g+ of protein in with just normal food, its easy if you can splash out but I'm not rolling in money so often wonder how much do I really need..


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## r_richson (Dec 22, 2007)

understand what your sayin although i rekcon demands for protein change daily. personaly i get between 250 and 300g a day everyday and rather overcompensate then under


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## Mitch. (Jul 26, 2011)

Mighty.Panda said:


> I would be interested to hear opinions here too. I dont use whey anymore as I really cant afford it. I find it hard getting the 200g+ of protein in with just normal food, its easy if you can splash out but I'm not rolling in money so often wonder how much do I really need..


I never really questioned it before. Just assumed 'the more, the better' but the lecture actually had backing from research over the past few years.


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## Rick89 (Feb 27, 2009)

Ive tried alot of different amounts and the more ive eaten the more ive grown, also know alot that believe in this, some very good opinions over on tm forum about this.


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## Mitch. (Jul 26, 2011)

r_richson said:


> understand what your sayin although i rekcon demands for protein change daily. personaly i get between 250 and 300g a day everyday and rather overcompensate then under


That's the thing though it doesn't.

A non-trained athlete was found to need only 0.89g/kg so the demand changes whether you train or not. The weight trainer needs more than an endurance athlete but the 1.79g/kg is for a weight trained athlete.

I'm all for overcompensating but eating twice as much as you can metabolise is ridiculous.


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## Guest (Oct 29, 2011)

I was discussing this with a mate the other day. Iv read a few places that the body can only process 20-30g protein in one go unless u are on gear. A guy that works at the gym I go to is a BNBF pro n he was saying how if you are natural too much protein can actually be bad. Cant remember the reason he gave. I always thought it was 1.2 to 1.6 grams per kg bodyweight.


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## Mitch. (Jul 26, 2011)

Rick89 said:


> Ive tried alot of different amounts and the more ive eaten the more ive grown, also know alot that believe in this, some very good opinions over on tm forum about this.


Could it not be the extra calories over the extra protein?

I'm not saying what I've said is now all I believe. I'm just now confused so want opinions and views on eating 300g+ as well. I am going to have a chat with my lecturer to question her regarding bodybuilders and even steroid use.


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## Mitch. (Jul 26, 2011)

RS86 said:
 

> I was discussing this with a mate the other day. Iv read a few places that the body can only process 20-30g protein in one go unless u are on gear. A guy that works at the gym I go to is a BNBF pro n he was saying how if you are natural too much protein can actually be bad. Cant remember the reason he gave. I always thought it was 1.2 to 1.6 grams per kg bodyweight.


You have a positive and negative balance of protein. Positive being protein synthesis and negative being protein breakdown. You want to maximise the positive and minimise the negative (obviously). Eating too much protein can have an adverse effect on spiking the synthesis but just as much the breakdown. Timing protein is (apparently) key to achieving the best balance.


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## Rick89 (Feb 27, 2009)

Mitch6689 said:


> Could it not be the extra calories over the extra protein?
> 
> I'm not saying what I've said is now all I believe. I'm just now confused so want opinions and views on eating 300g+ as well. I am going to have a chat with my lecturer to question her regarding bodybuilders and even steroid use.


I did 600g a day for about 8 weeks, carbs were moderate so cals werent that high

Alot of big lads go for 800g-1000g, Im not saying we need huge amount and that your wrong just saying from experience alot prefer very large amounts.

As said check the thread on tm, lots of lads there going for massive amounts.


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## Kiwi (Dec 24, 2008)

You could probably debate this until the second coming of christ and still get oposing views.

I know a guy who has just done a long prison sentance (10 years+) who is bl00dy huge. Only had 3 meals a day with out any extra protein. Plenty of rest and sleep and consistant training. I think he is probably abit of a gentic freak but I have heard of other guys doing long lags and coming out big big guys.


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## murphy2010 (Dec 17, 2010)

Hmm i try to go for 1.5g per lb of bodyweight, but like most i'd rather over do it than under do it


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## Rick89 (Feb 27, 2009)

Kiwi said:


> You could probably debate this until the second coming of christ and still get oposing views.
> 
> I know a guy who has just done a long prison sentance (10 years+) who is bl00dy huge. Only had 3 meals a day with out any extra protein. Plenty of rest and sleep and consistant training. I think he is probably abit of a gentic freak but I have heard of other guys doing long lags and coming out big big guys.


I know people like this aswell, a mate of mine is holding some serious muscle natty aswell and eat very little protein (100g a day if that) he is of african decent and has awesome genes.

I think everyone responds different to different approaches.


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## Natural-Chris (Oct 6, 2011)

most people who train think they need to have loads of protein,yes you need a high protein diet but you certainly dont need to be guzzling your money away with whay protein,a couple of 25g shakes a day to up your daily intake but thats enough imo.


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## Rick89 (Feb 27, 2009)

Natural-Chris said:


> most people who train think they need to have loads of protein,yes you need a high protein diet but you certainly dont need to be guzzling your money away with whay protein,a couple of 25g shakes a day to up your daily intake but thats enough imo.


Yes but have you tried it??

Some people do it and grow better, me being one of them


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## murphy2010 (Dec 17, 2010)

I love having a load of shakes a day, easy to rack up high amounts of protein and for me its much more convienient an easier than eating loads of meats.


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## LunaticSamurai (May 19, 2009)

The thing is, its something that has always been done. Even in the 60's and 70's bodybuilders where consuming 30-50grms of protein per meal and having 5-8 meals a days, depending.

Is this research based on athletes or bodybuilders? two very different things.


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## Kiwi (Dec 24, 2008)

Rick89 said:


> I know people like this aswell, a mate of mine is holding some serious muscle natty aswell and eat very little protein (100g a day if that) he is of african decent and has awesome genes.
> 
> I think everyone responds different to different approaches.


I'm a skinny white boy so I need as much protein and gear as I can possibly get.


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## Guest (Oct 29, 2011)

Kiwi said:


> I know a guy who has just done a long prison sentance (10 years+) who is bl00dy huge. Only had 3 meals a day with out any extra protein. Plenty of rest and sleep and consistant training. I think he is probably abit of a gentic freak but I have heard of other guys doing long lags and coming out big big guys.


Interestingly I was reading an article about this yesterday. It suggested that you can take your daily protein intake in one go and still having the same anabolic/catabolic effect than spreading it out. I thought that was the biggest load of p!$h but there may be some truth to it. Ill go find the article nw and post the link


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## Rick89 (Feb 27, 2009)

http://testosteronemuscle.co.uk/diet-nutrition-14/very-high-protein-intake-2381/

Check this thread out guys good little debate

I would bet money every superheavyweight on the british stage is eating way more protein in offseason than whats been advised.

Im my experience more protein=more growth

not saying it the only way or everyone way, just inputting my experiences.


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## Mars (Aug 25, 2007)

Mitch6689 said:


> I am a sports science student and recently had a nutrition lecture on protein metabolism.
> 
> It got me questioning a lot of what is preached on here about how much protein we need.
> 
> ...


Interesting.

Transcription and Translation, the two major steps in protein synthesis.

Testosterone, we know that we need more protein if we take steroids because of the effects they have on RNA and mRNA, IGF etc. There are some studies out there.

One of the most relevant would be the use of 3mg of testosterone per 1kg of bodyweight done on healthy males (who were not involved in an exercise program) even in these individuals approx 250mg of testosterone increased muscle protein synthesis by 27%. So maybe 300mg of protein for a 90kg guy thats on 750mg test per week and training hard doesn't seem that excessive imo.


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## LunaticSamurai (May 19, 2009)

Its a little bit like spot reduction. Now there is no scientific evidence to prove that this works, but every bodybuilder on the planet believes in it, so based on that, if it ain't broke....don't fix it.


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## Rick89 (Feb 27, 2009)

Mars said:


> Interesting.
> 
> Transcription and Translation, the two major steps in protein synthesis.
> 
> ...


Wow that some good info, amazing how much testosterone can increase protein synthesis so much IMO

Imagine the change if a guy is on a gram or more of test a week


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## Guest (Oct 29, 2011)

That site is

www.truthaboutprotein.com

Interesting read. Whether or not it is correct is another story though.

I stick to 2-3 shakes a day at abt 30g max but then im not all that big so mayb if I upped it I'd grow more as Rick89 says.


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## expletive (Sep 12, 2011)

Mitch6689 said:


> A lot of the content of the lecture is backed by research and says that we only need around 1.7g/kg for a trained athlete. For me this would only be 137g.


Is this based upon trained athletes wishing to maintain muscle mass and their recovery. If so surely BBers would need more as their aim is to pack on muscle


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## essexboy (Sep 7, 2008)

Ive gained muscle and strength on a calorie reduced diet,whilst losing fat consisting of very little protein.Ive also gained fu.ck all (except fat)on the most strict "bodybuilding"diet.

The only variable (non aas use aside)that matters is how you train & recover.

If your body is in a state of shock and HAS TO build muscle to survive another onslaught, it will rob fat stores.A slight (100 aday)calorific excess is desirable, as is sufficent water intake.If your not progressing, It aint because your deficient in protein.


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## 0000_soldier (Aug 9, 2011)

The human body replaces body cells every 7 yrs, so as you get bigger ur maintenance also gets more demanding surely? but genetics also depend on this so if your cells are all made of fat and protein surely you need to replace these more than having a demand for carbs, just a thought


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## Mighty.Panda (Oct 5, 2011)

I personally think protein quantity depends on the person ''genetics'' if you will. Throw me out into the wild and I will shrink incredibly quickly as I'm not built to retain lots of muscle. I know other guys though who have gone away on trips covering huge distances, loads of physical work, hardly anything to eat and theyve come back just as big as when they left and just as strong physically because almost no muscle has dropped off them.


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## Rick89 (Feb 27, 2009)

Mighty.Panda said:


> I personally think protein quantity depends on the person ''genetics'' if you will. Throw me out into the wild and I will shrink incredibly quickly as I'm not built to retain lots of muscle. I know other guys though who have gone away on trips covering huge distances, loads of physical work, hardly anything to eat and theyve come back just as big as when they left and just as strong physically because almost no muscle has dropped off them.


Yes agree with that, some guys are very lucky to be able to make decent gains on low amounts. Genetics must play a big role


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## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

Mitch6689 said:


> A lot of the content of the lecture is backed by research and says that we only need around 1.7g/kg for a trained athlete. For me this would only be 137g.


There are other studies out there on training athletes (olympic lifters) that show up to 2.6g per KG confered benefit, this isn't that far removed from the oft quoted 1g per pound of BW (2.2g per KG). Some research (especially if calores are restricted) shows up to 3g per KG being useful also.

You can't make assumptions off one isolated lecture or study, you need to look at the whole body or research.



Mitch6689 said:


> The rest is just broken down and urinated out.


Any protein intake above what is required for lean mass maintenance and other metabolic processes is not broken down and urinated out. It will be asimilated and used for energy or stored as fat.



Mitch6689 said:


> I understand for steroids users the body can metabolise more protein but surely not double at the very least?


There's very little research on this, but I don't think 2g per pound or 4.4g per KG would not be beneficial if on gear, just look at what Mars posted for a start, and that's without other drugs in the mix.



Mitch6689 said:


> We also looked at studies identifying the optimal protein intake amount after exercise. I normally have 50g of whey whenever I have a shake but studies show the optimal amount is 20g immediately after. The extra benefit between 20g-40g is not significant.


This is old hat. 20g of protein has been shown to be the amount that optimally triggers protein synthesis. That's not to say more than 20g is going to be detrimental or wasted either though.


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## Ts23 (Jan 14, 2011)

as much as i can fit in.


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## ba baracuss (Apr 26, 2004)

bayman said:


> Any protein intake above what is required for lean mass maintenance and other metabolic processes is not broken down and urinated out. It will be asimilated and used for energy or stored as fat.


That's not true. Excess protein is excreted as urea. Sure, some can be used for energy, but excess still gets excreted.


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## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

ba baracuss said:


> That's not true. Excess protein is excreted as urea. Sure, some can be used for energy, but excess still gets excreted.


That's a huge oversimplification. Do you think it makes any sense from an evolutionary perspective for excess protein to be wasted and just urinated out?

Once the protein is digested into amino acids, they (the aminos) are either used for lean mass repair / accrediatation and other functions or they can be converted in the liver to glucose, ketones and other stuff. Obviously the glucose can be used directly by tissues that have a glucose requirement or burnt for energy, as are the ketones.

Essentially, excess protein is just burned off. That's what mitch was referring to, after a certain point protein just becomes an expensive (and inefficient) energy source. Have a read of the following:

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/nutrition/nutrient-intake-nutrient-storage-and-nutrient-oxidation.html


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## DJay (Feb 6, 2011)

Ill be following this thread because its nice to actually see some science and not the usual broscience that is on here sometimes about my mates, friends cousin says blah blah blah, actual scientific studies.

I dont know much about the subject but what i do know is this.

Humans or homosapians have been around aproximatly 100,000 years and we have changed very little phisically in this time. For atleast the first 95,000 years there was no real way of storing meat and keeping it fresh. Salting meat is a fairly recent method of doing so. If a group of 5 guys killed an animal like a deer or something similar it doesnt make sense for each of them to only be able to digest the first 150g of meat because our bodies can only absorb 30-40g of protein at once, its ridiculous to even think this. Milk protein is another story since it relies on an enzyme which is in limited supply to clot the milk so that it can be absorbed.

Other preditors such as lions can eat about 40kg of meat in one sitting, this is more than 1/3 of their bodyweight in most cases. Thats equivilent to a 90kg guy eating 30kg of meat in one sitting.

Obviously we are not lions but we follow that same rules of nature, we have evolved and adapted to eat what we kill as quickly as possible before it rots, is infested with insects or another preditor takes it from us. Saying humans can only consume less than 50g of meat protein at once is just ridiculous. Where this myth came from is probably the same as other myths you hear in the gym. Its just mixed up in chinese whispers.


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## Rick89 (Feb 27, 2009)

bayman said:


> That's a huge oversimplification. Do you think it makes any sense from an evolutionary perspective for excess protein to be wasted and just urinated out?
> 
> Once the protein is digested into amino acids, they (the aminos) are either used for lean mass repair / accrediatation and other functions or they can be converted in the liver to glucose, ketones and other stuff. Obviously the glucose can be used directly by tissues that have a glucose requirement or burnt for energy, as are the ketones.
> 
> ...


Some great info there bayman, myself I have always responded best to higher amounts of protein on gear.

what are your theories on higher amounts being used efficiently for growth, as in do you believe larger amounts can be used on large bodybuilder using peds and hefty dose of androgens in the mix, how would one best determine the right amount for them before it just gets stored as energy?


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## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

Rick89 said:


> Some great info there bayman, myself I have always responded best to higher amounts of protein on gear.
> 
> what are your theories on higher amounts being used efficiently for growth, as in do you believe larger amounts can be used on large bodybuilder using peds and hefty dose of androgens in the mix, how would one best determine the right amount for them before it just gets stored as energy?


Gear changes things, obviously. As Mars pointed out a dose of 3mg per KG of test upped protein synth by around 27% (or a third for ease). So if 300mg test for a 100kg man ups his protein synth by a third, what does double the dose do? or double the dose plus other meds?

There is little research on this, but I'd say it's safe to assume that more protein is going to be used for growth whilst on gear than when not. Again, that's not supporting "more = better" approach, because like anything there will be an upper limit, even on AAS.

I don't think you could determine an optimum amount yourself, we'll have to wait for further research, not that I can anyone funding a study on this. Pulling a figure out of the air I'd say on a moderate cycle anything up to double the recommendation for a natural could be put to use, or say 2g per lb.

Again, much above this I'd hazard it will just be an expensive energy source, so when you hear people saying "well the more protein I get the more I grow" it's most likely down to the extra cals it's providing than the protein per say. Rememebr carbs are protein sparing, and it's easier (and cheaper) to get more carbs in than having to resort to 800g-1000g of protein per day.


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## Rick89 (Feb 27, 2009)

bayman said:


> Gear changes things, obviously. As Mars pointed out a dose of 3mg per KG of test upped protein synth by around 27% (or a third for ease). So if 300mg test for a 100kg man ups his protein synth by a third, what does double the dose do? or double the dose plus other meds?
> 
> There is little research on this, but I'd say it's safe to assume that more protein is going to be used for growth whilst on gear than when not. Again, that's not supporting "more = better" approach, because like anything there will be an upper limit, even on AAS.
> 
> ...


Cheers mate greta info again, yes your very right it expensive shooting for big amounts as appose to cals from elsewhere

I once went on a moderate carb diet low fat and bumped protein up to 600g on 50mg test a week and grew really well but as you say may have been the extra cals supporting the new growth, its just guess work as you say currently no real studies etc

I guess a guy weighing 110kg shooting 900mg a week of test would enhance his synthesis roughly 90% right??

So could aim for a pretty hefty amount although as pointed out there will be a saturation point right?

Do different compounds effect protein synthesis differently are certain drugs better at doing so such as dianabol

Edit read you post again seems to answer all lol


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## ba baracuss (Apr 26, 2004)

bayman said:


> That's a huge oversimplification. Do you think it makes any sense from an evolutionary perspective for excess protein to be wasted and just urinated out?
> 
> Once the protein is digested into amino acids, they (the aminos) are either used for lean mass repair / accrediatation and other functions or they can be converted in the liver to glucose, ketones and other stuff. Obviously the glucose can be used directly by tissues that have a glucose requirement or burnt for energy, as are the ketones.
> 
> ...


Well clearly it is. You can make it as complicated as you like, but at the end of the day, excess protein is excreted, end of story.

Evolution is kind of irrelevant since we eat far different diets than our ancestors. If only protein was eaten, then less would be p1ssed out, but that's not the case since we eat far more efficient energy sources.


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## LunaticSamurai (May 19, 2009)

Interesting reading you guys.


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## Suprakill4 (Jul 11, 2008)

People always say you dont need as much as you think. Ill tell you one thing though, my gains are much better since upping it to 400g a day from 300g thats for certain.


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

The question "how much protein do you need?" needs further qualification - are we talking about how much do we need to survive, how much do we need to maintain and support organ and muscle protein levels, or how much do we need to gain extra muscle mass and maintain it?

In most cases (on forums like this anyway) people are asking the third question, but most studies and study data usually only really relates to the first two questions - so people have to be very cautious when quoting 'protein requirements' from studies, because usually the figure is the bare minimum to maintain current nitrogen retention levels but without factoring in the possiblity of greater need due to activity, and without considering also whether bare minimum requirement is optimal or not - it may well be that 0.8g/kg bodyweight is all you need to maintain nitrogen balance, but despite meeting needs I doubt very much that amount is also optimum for health or muscle building.

If you look at all the studies out there, there are quite a few interesting observations made - firstly that athletes may actually need less protein to maintain nitrogen balance/prevent illness than non athletes due to exercise stimulated adaptations which lead to increased efficency of protein utilisation. However, this doesn't mean people exercising regularly necessarily should eat less protein - high protein intake, way above basic need, causes a few interesting things which may be considered beneficial to a bodybuilder or athlete, things such as; increased protein turnover (leads to improved quality of the RNA and DNA within muscle tissue and keeps muscle healthy), elevated basal IGF1 (stimulates fat loss and muscle anabolism post prandially and post exercise), high thermic effect (a very high protein diet has a high enough total thermic effect to meaningfully elevate BMR), elevated basal glucagon (counters the negative effect of insulin on fat cells).

Another reason why intake is best higher than the minimum amount needed relates to protein quality - if your protein intake is incomplete and missing sufficient quantities of one or more of the essential amino acids then protein synthesis, and retention of muscle and organ protein, would still not be happening properly even if you met your minimum gross protein need. Unless you engineer every gram of your protein intake to precisely provide the amino acid profile you need, eating more protein than the minimum and from a variety of sources, or sources you know have a complete EAA profile, is the only way to easily ensure a good all round intake of amino acids. Also, while only eight or nine aminos are essential, that doesn't mean that the non essentials are without health benefit - they very much are, and while you can survive without them, you function best with them.

I guess having blabbed about the advantages of high protein intake it's only fair to mention the potential negatives; firstly, high protein intake (as I bet many people on have discovered already) is pretty good at causing constipation and gas. This is due to high protein levels negatively altering the balance of intestinal bacteria, and that people usually drop carbs at the expense of protein and so are proportionately under eating dietary fibre. Also, high protein diets followed for a long time can cause polyps to develop in the colon, and this can increase the risk of disease of the colon (diverticulitis and similar). Second issue is acid-base balance. Protein is of course acidic, and continually elevated levels of amino acids in the blood plasma from a high protein diet cause the body to demineralise bone mass to use the calcium to buffer the acidity - this both increases osteoporosis risk in later life, and also increases the risk of kidney stones as part of the extra calcium the kidneys have to excrete. This acid damage is slightly offset by exercise, but still is an issue with longterm high protein intake in athletes. Final thing is that, according to at least two studies, when total calories ingested from protein exceed total calories from carbohydrate then testosterone levels become noticably reduced.

All in all, I think that for a natural athlete a good minimum target for total protein intake is around 2g/kg bodyweight (around 1g per lb bodyweight) per day, and around the workout make sure you ingest a food source providing 10-15g of essential amino acids. More is fine, but not essential IMO.

Provided those two conditions are met, I think all bases are covered. For someone using AAS or slin, it would be silly not to raise protein intake a lot higher though, as I see no point in taking a drug which increases the amount of protein your body can utilise for anabolism and then to not provide that protein.


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## Rick89 (Feb 27, 2009)

Great post, spot on IMO

Im going to try aim for 800g a day when try slin for first time in new year, will also make sure to benefit my digestive system with fibre, enzymes etc


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

ba baracuss said:


> Well clearly it is. You can make it as complicated as you like, but at the end of the day, excess protein is excreted, end of story.
> 
> Evolution is kind of irrelevant since we eat far different diets than our ancestors. If only protein was eaten, then less would be p1ssed out, but that's not the case since we eat far more efficient energy sources.


Excess protein is excreted and p!ssed out, but not as protein or amino acids and not without first being used to extract chemical energy... amino acids in excess of need for any anabolic or synthetic processes go through the process of deamination where the amino group of the AA molecule is converted to ammonia, which then is converted to urea and excreted in urine (and a little in sweat). The remaining parts of the amino acid then are either used partially in the process of transanimation (where bits of individual amino acids get swapped around to synthesise new non essential amnio acids), or mainly for the synthesis of several forms of ketone which are then used either directly for energy or are used to synthesise glycogen and glucose or fatty acids, either for immediate energy use or storage.

Is only part of the excess amino acid molecule that is excreted, and not before its chemical energy is utilised.


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

Rick89 said:


> Great post, spot on IMO
> 
> Im going to try aim for 800g a day when try slin for first time in new year, will also make sure to benefit my digestive system with fibre, enzymes etc


Yeah make sure to look after your digestive system well with the high protein - eat some foods with decent natural fibre content, and perhaps consider some probiotics too.

One thing which helps avoid a high degree of digestion issues with high protein intakes is to increase protein gradually over a period of weeks rather than to just suddenly add 200g per day - by graduating the increase you give intestinal bacteria a chance to keep with the changing diet rather than to just suddenly slap them down.


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## Matt 1 (May 8, 2010)

Dtlv74 said:


> The question "how much protein do you need?" needs further qualification - are we talking about how much do we need to survive, how much do we need to maintain and support organ and muscle protein levels, or how much do we need to gain extra muscle mass and maintain it?
> 
> In most cases (on forums like this anyway) people are asking the third question, but most studies and study data usually only really relates to the first two questions - so people have to be very cautious when quoting 'protein requirements' from studies, because usually the figure is the bare minimum to maintain current nitrogen retention levels but without factoring in the possiblity of greater need due to activity, and without considering also whether bare minimum requirement is optimal or not - it may well be that 0.8g/kg bodyweight is all you need to maintain nitrogen balance, but despite meeting needs I doubt very much that amount is also optimum for health or muscle building.
> 
> ...


My thoughts.


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## need2bodybuild (May 11, 2011)

Very interesting thread!


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## Matt 1 (May 8, 2010)

I personally think bodybuilders go overboard on protein, but better safe than sorry is a good moto in this case. I also think the media and supplement companies tell you its more than what you need, for obvious reasons, which does stick in the back of my mind when you read 'recommened amounts' but..they seem to back it up with research, whether this research has been pushed for results, I am unsure.

I think personal experience is the best way to go, try it with 1.5grams, try it with 2g.. see what works better for you


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## DeadlyCoobra (Oct 16, 2011)

Great thread!

Interesting article by Dorian Yates on this topic, may not be a scientific study but from a guy that wrote down everything he ate and did pretty much from the beginning and won 6 Olympias doing what he did, im sure he knows what he is talking about.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0KFY/is_11_21/ai_111506214/?tag=content;col1

I agree with the 1 -1.5g / lb of bodyweight


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## JoeShmoe (Nov 7, 2007)

Ive always stuck to around 1g per 1lb (i.e 200 grams) on lifting days and 0.75 per 1lb on non lifting days (i.e 150grams). So i supplement with shakes 3-4 days a week and dont the rest

Seems to work fine for me, maybe i'd have better gains by eating more but with a busy job and 2 young kids its not always easy to plan, buy and eat for yourself only


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## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

ba baracuss said:


> Well clearly it is. You can make it as complicated as you like, but at the end of the day, excess protein is excreted, end of story.
> 
> Evolution is kind of irrelevant since we eat far different diets than our ancestors. If only protein was eaten, then less would be p1ssed out, but that's not the case since we eat far more efficient energy sources.


See Dtlv's post for refernce. The energy is used from the excess protein first before it is p*ssed out. You can still get fat eating too much protein (although the least likely macro to be stored as such and difficult to do so).


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## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

JoeShmoe said:


> Ive always stuck to around 1g per 1lb (i.e 200 grams) on lifting days and 0.75 per 1lb on non lifting days (i.e 150grams). So i supplement with shakes 3-4 days a week and dont the rest
> 
> Seems to work fine for me, maybe i'd have better gains by eating more but with a busy job and 2 young kids its not always easy to plan, buy and eat for yourself only


I wouldn't bother "cycling" protein intake personally.


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

DeadlyCoobra said:


> Great thread!
> 
> Interesting article by Dorian Yates on this topic, may not be a scientific study but from a guy that wrote down everything he ate and did pretty much from the beginning and won 6 Olympias doing what he did, im sure he knows what he is talking about.
> 
> ...


Good article.

I think the 1-1.5g/lb range is fine for most people... certainly I seem to do best in this range. Have never noticed anything more beneficial from going above 1.5g/lb - quite the opposite in fact as that's when I start to get IBS type issues and lowered appetite. Less than 1g/lb and I feel fairly low in mood and over a longer period don't seem to grow quite as well (or am slightly more catabolic, can't tell which it is).


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## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

DeadlyCoobra said:


> Great thread!
> 
> Interesting article by Dorian Yates on this topic, may not be a scientific study but from a guy that wrote down everything he ate and did pretty much from the beginning and won 6 Olympias doing what he did, im sure he knows what he is talking about.
> 
> ...


One thing I really like about that article is how much he rates Caesin and other slow proteins for muscle growth. I've been saying this for ages, but people get hung up on spiking protein synthesis with bcaa and whey when in fact a large proportion of "fast" proteins ingested get burnt off for energy; slow proteins like caesin halt protein breakdown promoting a positive nitrogen balance.

Muscle growth is as much about stopping protein breakdown as it is about spiking protein synth, hence why AAS asre so effective when in a net calorie deficit.


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## DeadlyCoobra (Oct 16, 2011)

bayman said:


> One thing I really like about that article is how much he rates Caesin and other slow proteins for muscle growth. I've been saying this for ages, but people get hung up on spiking protein synthesis with bcaa and whey when in fact a large proportion of "fast" proteins ingested get burnt off for energy; slow proteins like caesin halt protein breakdown promoting a positive nitrogen balance.
> 
> Muscle growth is as much about stopping protein breakdown as it is about spiking protein synth, hence why AAS asre so effective when in a net calorie deficit.


Yeah i agree, i normally have a protein blend and make sure i take in carbs PWO for this exact reason. No carbs and the "fast" proteins just get converted to glusose (gluconeogenesis i think)

I mean this is isn't exactly make or break when it comes to building muscle but if you wan't to do it properly then everything adds up.


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## NoGutsNoGlory (Jun 11, 2009)

It's threads like this that remind you why you love UK-M.


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## Mitch. (Jul 26, 2011)

Haven't checked on this thread in a few days but seems it's getting people talking and even if I'm not replying anymore it's interesting to read. I will take some of what you have said to my lecturer this week and discuss bodybuilding needs with and without addition of steroids.

I will put some links of recent scientific studies up for those who want to read and see who the subjects were and what protocol was carried out.

Not now though as I'm tired.


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## DJay (Feb 6, 2011)

Great posts Dtlv, you seem to know your stuff!


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## digitalis (Sep 13, 2011)

This may have been mentioned already but have a wild stab in the dark guess who started propagating the whole "2grams per BW" line and generally try and scare lifters into believing a 400g a day protein diet is neccesary.....that's right SUPPLEMENT COMPANIES, those cheeky loveable chaps who try and mostly succeed in getting us to spend upwards of £30 a month on just friggin protein powder.


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

bayman said:


> One thing I really like about that article is how much he rates Caesin and other slow proteins for muscle growth. I've been saying this for ages, but people get hung up on spiking protein synthesis with bcaa and whey when in fact a large proportion of "fast" proteins ingested get burnt off for energy; slow proteins like caesin halt protein breakdown promoting a positive nitrogen balance.
> 
> Muscle growth is as much about stopping protein breakdown as it is about spiking protein synth, hence why AAS asre so effective when in a net calorie deficit.


I agree that people focus a little too much on bumping up the anabolic side of nitrogen balance and forget that at least as important is limiting the catabolic side of the equation.

The only time that I think a nice bolus of quickly absorbed aminos is always a good idea is around the workout - but with a couple of points. Firstly, around the workout, NEAAs contribute nothing to protein synthesis, so if trying to be as efficient as possible you want to focus a protein source which mostly provides the EAAs rather than NEAAs. Next thing is dose - the recent studies of Tipton show that you only need around 10-12g of EAAs to max out protein synthesis - more amino acids than this amount doesn't equate to any greater PS.

I know you don't share my enthusiasm for EAA powder as a workout supp, but to my mind this is perfect for the job as a) its EAAs only, B) you only need a small dose (10-12g) compared to whey or anything else (30g of whey is needed to get 12g EAAs), and c) a 12g dose of EAAs only takes about 20 mins to release EAAs into the bloodstream and maximum elevation occurs within 45-90 mins after taking it... this is much faster than whey which takes an hour to begin elevating plasma EAAs, and doesn't achieve the peak until the 120-180min mark. I also take them immediately pre rather than PWO based on the study which showed this to increase net protein synthesis to a greater degree than taking it PWO due to increasing anabolism to a higher rate than catabolism already during the workout (thanks to the fast availability).


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

Mitch6689 said:


> Haven't checked on this thread in a few days but seems it's getting people talking and even if I'm not replying anymore it's interesting to read. I will take some of what you have said to my lecturer this week and discuss bodybuilding needs with and without addition of steroids.
> 
> I will put some links of recent scientific studies up for those who want to read and see who the subjects were and what protocol was carried out.
> 
> Not now though as I'm tired.


Please do post up anything relevant when you've got the time. I can post up a few too if you like.


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## m118 (Feb 4, 2011)

Quick question, if I'm sipping on BCAAs during my workout, how long will it take for them to be fully absorbed and ready to be used by the muscle?


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## -Jack- (Sep 28, 2009)

I know that over do it as my unrination is effected. But atleast 1g per kg of body weight. I find my muscle recovery rate is slower on less than that.


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## adpolice (Oct 27, 2011)

One thing of sure,more than the average person less than what supp companies made us believe...


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## PHMG (Jun 15, 2010)

problem is, these "studies" are never taken on hard training, steroid using bodybuilders.


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

PowerHouseMcGru said:


> problem is, these "studies" are never taken on hard training, steroid using bodybuilders.


Exactly, and the few studies that do look at bodybuilders and athletes who train in a similar way show quite clearly that conditioned athletes do adapt and respond slightly differently compared to non athletes.

Finding the right thing to do is a mix of going with what the science suggests, but playing around from that start point to find the optimal IMO.


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## PHMG (Jun 15, 2010)

It wasnt that long ago that the people doing these "studies" were saying that bodybuilders dont need more protein than anyone else....which everyone who trained knew to be untrue. Good job no one listended then!


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## richgearguy (Jun 23, 2011)

Good thread. 300g of protein / day works out to nearly 110 kg protein / year. This is a huge amount, and only a small fraction of this protein will ever find its way into muscle. That's not to say the excess protein does not serve an anabolic function, it may well do, but how much of this excess is actually beneficial?

I've found a recent paper that indicates ingestion of 20g protein (an amount mentioned previously in this thread) following intense exercise is optimal for muscle protein synthesis:

http://www.ajcn.org/content/89/1/161.short

The subjects were not bodybuilders / weight lifters as far as I can see, so the 20g may underestimate the optimum amount needed by the folks on this forum. Anyway, it's an interesting and highly cited study nevertheless.

My own view is that an increased total daily intake of protein is beneficial, but it is just as (more?) important to ensure that blood amino acid levels are maintained at elevated concentrations throughout the day by, for example, eating small protein-rich meals every 2 - 3 hours or casein protein before a longer stretch.


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## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

richgearguy said:


> I've found a recent paper that indicates ingestion of 20g protein (an amount mentioned previously in this thread) following intense exercise is optimal for muscle protein synthesis:
> 
> http://www.ajcn.org/content/89/1/161.short
> 
> The subjects were not bodybuilders / weight lifters as far as I can see, so the 20g may underestimate the optimum amount needed by the folks on this forum. Anyway, it's an interesting and highly cited study nevertheless.


As stated before, whilst 20g was the amount needed to stimulate maximum protein synth, that's not to say any more than 20g of protein per serving is negative or won't be beneficial. This was another study the supplement industry jumped all over to pimp whey etc.



richgearguy said:


> My own view is that an increased total daily intake of protein is beneficial, but it is just as (more?) important to ensure that blood amino acid levels are maintained at elevated concentrations throughout the day by, for example, *eating small protein-rich meals every 2 - 3 hours* or casein protein before a longer stretch.


With regard to your first point, the benefits of a high protein diet (relative to a standard western diet) are well documented, anecdotal and scientific.

As for your second, you're missing a couple of cruicial factors. Firstly proteins (especially wholefood ones) take a lot longer to digest than most people think, in the region of 2-6g per hour depending on source; Whey (one of the fastest proteins) for instance only digests at around 10g per hour. What's my point you might ask? Well if you're constantly eating every 2-3 hours, in theory the meals or supps are constantly being digested and absorbed and subsequently constantly elevating blood amino acid levels. This doesn't give tissues a "refractory" period and leads to "oversaturation" for want of a better word, potentially leading to a higher rate of amino acid oxidation. Layne Norton has done some interesting work on this, suggesting less meals with larger protein servings (3-4 meals per day) may and I quote may be better for mass gains as a result.

There is in fact some decent research showing amino acid sensitivity increases with less meals and especially after a period of fasting, and huge boluses of protein with a prolonged digestion speed might very well give better nitrogen retention than small spikes throughout the day. There's actually a Norwegian study from a few years ago (that I posted in a recent hotly debated thread) showing that 3 meals gave better muscle growth than 6 meals, and although there were some weird variables in that study, the results are still quite interesting.


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## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

Some of my posts from the "other" thread:

http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/protein/152745-3-4-meals-mass-possible-15.html#post2551859

http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/protein/152745-3-4-meals-mass-possible-5.html#post2551321


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

Protein absorption isn't static or consistent to everyone... plenty of studies using animals show that after a few weeks on a considerably higher than normal protein diet adaptatons begin to occur (most significantly changes in enzyme levels) which significantly increase the rate of protein absorption.

Am pretty confident that a 10g per hour max absorption rate for whey for example only applies to individuals used to consuming an average protein intake, and that individuals long term adapted to a high protein intake would be able to absorb protein at a greater rate.


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## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

Dtlv74 said:


> Protein absorption isn't static or consistent to everyone... plenty of studies using animals show that after a few weeks on a considerably higher than normal protein diet adaptatons begin to occur (most significantly changes in enzyme levels) which significantly increase the rate of protein absorption.
> 
> Am pretty confident that a 10g per hour max absorption rate for whey for example only applies to individuals used to consuming an average protein intake, and that individuals long term adapted to a high protein intake would be able to absorb protein at a greater rate.


This isn't something I've read or researched before, thanks for pointing it out. The fact remains that absorption speed doesn't mean much in the grand scheme of things though.


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## skelator52 (Oct 8, 2011)

had a ex boxer tell me today that he had a friend died by having too much protien i.e shakes etc he told me not to rely on shakes which i told him i dont i told him i only have a few a day just to top up


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## BenderRodriguez (Nov 29, 2010)

skelator52 said:


> had a ex boxer tell me today that he had a friend died by having too much protien i.e shakes etc he told me not to rely on shakes which i told him i dont i told him i only have a few a day just to top up


No expert but I reckon he's had too many blows to the head.


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