# To pct, or not pct?



## Sk1nny (Jun 5, 2010)

*Do you do pct*​
No 2912.83%Not anymore 187.96%Yes 15568.58%Sometimes2410.62%


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## Sk1nny (Jun 5, 2010)

Ok guys who does n who doesn't do it?

Why do it?

Why not?


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## Little_Jay (Feb 6, 2006)

i was thinking the same, im starting a cycle soon (1st cycle) and am thinking about not doing one, because opionin is split isnt it !


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## Sk1nny (Jun 5, 2010)

Yer and people are quite highly opinionated on the subject


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## Sk1nny (Jun 5, 2010)

Some huge guys on here say they don't bother with it as sides are worse from pct drugs than from roids. Others get all humpty and grill the noobs like an age old school teacher lol


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## Suitelf11 (Jul 7, 2010)

PCT is in my eyes obligatory after any cycle to recover fast.


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## Dsahna (May 25, 2009)

Tbh i dont do a pct,only ever run an AI/Nolva incase of gyno flare up,I dont have much trouble maintaining post cycle unless i start being lazy with diet/training!


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## Sk1nny (Jun 5, 2010)

Dsahna said:


> Tbh i dont do a pct,only ever run an AI/Nolva incase of gyno flare up,I dont have much trouble maintaining post cycle unless i start being lazy with diet/training!


When do you start taking them mate at first sign or try n ride it out see if the symptoms stop after few days?

Some people have an itchy trigger finger with the pct gear I reckon


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## Sk1nny (Jun 5, 2010)

Suitelf11 said:


> PCT is in my eyes obligatory after any cycle to recover fast.


Even if your balls are pretty normal?

Do any of the pct drugs actually destroy the estradiol by making you pss it out or does it just hang around till you stop blocking it then do it's dirty work anyway?


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## Suitelf11 (Jul 7, 2010)

Yes, even when your balls are pretty normal.

Try it out by yourself, do a cycle, don't do a PCT, and check your blood.

Do a cycle, do a proper PCT, and check your blood.

Compare.

You'll go with PCT from that time on.


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## Sk1nny (Jun 5, 2010)

So the only way to tell if the pct is doing the business is by getting bloodwork done?


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## Little_Jay (Feb 6, 2006)

garry0770 said:


> When do you start taking them mate at first sign or try n ride it out see if the symptoms stop after few days?
> 
> Some people have an itchy trigger finger with the pct gear I reckon


id like to know the answer to that aswell because i would like to run something incase of gyno


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## green19210 (Jul 26, 2010)

For me it depends on what cycle you are doing...

Lets say your on lose dose dbol or lose dose anavar etc then i cant see the point really. you not going to mess up your test levels too much, which i dont think would warrant a PCT. On the other hand i would probs say for a high test cycle or a lengthy high cycle then PCT would probably be a good advantage.

But id still like to see some articals on PCT showing they are as essential as some people make out.


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## Dsahna (May 25, 2009)

garry0770 said:


> When do you start taking them mate at first sign or try n ride it out see if the symptoms stop after few days?
> 
> Some people have an itchy trigger finger with the pct gear I reckon


First sign mate:thumbup1:

Strange thing is I used to get gyno on Test whenever I went above 750mg pw,nowadays I seem to be less sensetive because im currently running 2g and theres no sign of any gyno,nolva is on hand just incase though!

I know no pct has its downside but I accept it!


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## Mars (Aug 25, 2007)

garry0770 said:


> So the only way to tell if the pct is doing the business is by getting bloodwork done?


So are you of the opinion that PCT may not do it's business?

What are your opinions on clomid's off label use for males with hypogonadism, it's clinically documented that it does work, so does it follow that it will aid in post cycle recovery?


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## Uriel (Oct 14, 2008)

garry0770 said:


> Ok guys who does n who doesn't do it?
> 
> Why do it?
> 
> Why not?


I'll be honest with you mate and I know you don't want to hear it but you could quite easily bang on 2 stone of beef without gear IMO and before you slage me off I trained 13 years clean and was way bigger than you

you are asking about stayoing on indefinateley now at cycle 1.....this is fine if you have weighed all the risks up against your goals but just staying on (I do now but have reasosns) for the hell of it is questionable IMO


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## Sk1nny (Jun 5, 2010)

Uriel said:


> I'll be honest with you mate and I know you don't want to hear it but you could quite easily bang on 2 stone of beef without gear IMO and before you slage me off I trained 13 years clean and was way bigger than you
> 
> you are asking about stayoing on indefinateley now at cycle 1.....this is fine if you have weighed all the risks up against your goals but just staying on (I do now but have reasosns) for the hell of it is questionable IMO


Honesty Is appreciated mate

Not intending to stay on for more than 12 weeks

Whilste I respect people with the patience to gain naturally I don't have such patience ;-)


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## Uriel (Oct 14, 2008)

garry0770 said:


> Honesty Is appreciated mate
> 
> Not intending to stay on for more than 12 weeks
> 
> Whilste *I respect people with the patience to gain naturally I* don't have such patience ;-)


I banged about 2 stone on in my first year, you'll not do that much better on gear TBH

Anyway, I do gear now and I stay on but I'm 43 and have all the kids etc and my natty test is dwindled to much to be of use:thumbup1:


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## BigDom86 (Jul 27, 2008)

i know plenty that do and plenty who dont. id atleast use hcg if nothign else


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## Suitelf11 (Jul 7, 2010)

garry0770 said:


> So the only way to tell if the pct is doing the business is by getting bloodwork done?


No I more meant it like, *if* you do that, you'll see it's better with PCT, so from that time on, you stick with PCT.  Since it simply works.


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## Sk1nny (Jun 5, 2010)

mars1960 said:


> So are you of the opinion that PCT may not do it's business?
> 
> What are your opinions on clomid's off label use for males with hypogonadism, it's clinically documented that it does work, so does it follow that it will aid in post cycle recovery?


Anyone know the answer to this one?


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## Mars (Aug 25, 2007)

I would like the thread starter to answer my Q's in post #14, this could be an interesting debate, you obviously have an opinion, i'd like to hear it.


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## Sk1nny (Jun 5, 2010)

Uriel said:


> I banged about 2 stone on in my first year, you'll not do that much better on gear TBH
> 
> Anyway, I do gear now and I stay on but I'm 43 and have all the kids etc and my natty test is dwindled to much to be of use:thumbup1:


I have gained a stone and a half naturally ( I'm ashamed to admit lol) I was extremely skinny before. Had Anemia as a child and have always found it hard to put on weight


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## green19210 (Jul 26, 2010)

Suitelf11 said:


> No I more meant it like, if you do that, you'll see it's better with PCT, so from that time on, you stick with PCT.  *Since it simply works*.


Will you please provide me a medical artical/journal to back this point up please? Because the drugs used in PCT can have some awful side effects some of which can be worse than the steriods taken.

People forget to mention the sides of things like nolva and clomid...sometimes the sides just arent worth running the risk, especially on a low doseage course


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## Justin Cider (Jul 18, 2010)

Clomid is immense... at making me spunk buckets!...


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## BigDom86 (Jul 27, 2008)

D92 said:


> HAHAHA look who it is BigDom.....i remeber the days when you used to get terrorised on here :lol:
> 
> Hows it going


lol i still get terrorised. :lol:


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## green19210 (Jul 26, 2010)

D92 said:


> LOL at this unbelieveably stupid post :laugh:


Well come on then explain....Because i am a firm believer that PCT is hyped up far more than it is actually needed


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## Sk1nny (Jun 5, 2010)

D92 said:


> Garry are you a few sarnies short of a picnic son....because thats the way your coming across on here mate ????


Explain yourself better genius?


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## green19210 (Jul 26, 2010)

D92 said:


> Mate youve done one ****ty dbol cycle and look like a right ****** in your avvy....do you really think anyone gives a shiit about whether you believe in PCT or not........and anyway your probably just saying you dont agree with PCT because you seen RS007 AND JW007 saying yesterday.
> 
> SHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEP


Very mature.

I think you will find if you go further back i actually have questioned PCT a few weeks ago in low dose dbol cycles.

And as this is a public forum, then i am fully entitled to give me opinion on a subject as i see fit, as long as a follow the rules.

And if you go back and re-read, i didnt say i fully disagree with PCT at all and can see the benefits in long or high doseage cycles, i just question wether the same is needed in low doseage cycles and as this is somthing my dissertation at uni will be heaverly focused on then i have every right to question things.


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## Sk1nny (Jun 5, 2010)

D92 said:


> Mate youve done one ****ty dbol cycle and look like a right ****** in your avvy....do you really think anyone gives a shiit about whether you believe in PCT or not........and anyway your probably just saying you dont agree with PCT because you seen RS007 AND JW007 saying yesterday.
> 
> SHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEP


Excuse me for not being the advanced all knowledgable muscle bound genius you clearly are.

Also thanks for your constructive input

Lastly this thread Is supposed to be about your experiences that I might learn a thing or two from


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## Sk1nny (Jun 5, 2010)

mars1960 said:


> So are you of the opinion that PCT may not do it's business?
> 
> What are your opinions on clomid's off label use for males with hypogonadism, it's clinically documented that it does work, so does it follow that it will aid in post cycle recovery?


Dude I don't know nearly enough to answer these questions, hence why I am here asking them


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## MarkFranco (Aug 26, 2010)

Ive decided to do a PCT after researching various places on the net, its funny cos some people at the gym have given me advice of PCT week after last jab for one week and others dont even bother at all.

The feeling I get though is if I want to keep my gains and get my balls back online then it is better to do a PCT and i'm suprised the feeling on this forum is different to nearly every other place ive been on.


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## Sk1nny (Jun 5, 2010)

Ha this has sorted out my confusion about pct

Clear as ****ing mud lol


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## najybomb (Nov 19, 2008)

to green.

are you really that dim? have you done zero research on steroids or post cycle therapy drugs whatsoever or are you just relying on everyone on here to give you the questions and the answers.

post cycle therapy, right yes the side effects from the drugs can be bad but i wouldnt say wqorse than steroids, and they are of a different nature entirely. to recover at a good rate you must do pct, no one is fcuking superman and just recovers okay, thats a fact! your test is shot to pieces and useing clomid and nolva by themselves doesnt cut it. as your lh bounces back once you stop taking gear so why use them to boost something that is allready bounced back? youi need hcg! jesus, morons.

thoroughly enjoy seeing your gains the way you go pmsl


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## Sk1nny (Jun 5, 2010)

I notice some of the people on the vote Opted for the not any more choice.

Why did you stop doing it?

What were the big differences you noticed coming off cycle with and without?


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## carpe diem (Jan 6, 2007)

How many people "only" use otc pct ?


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## Sk1nny (Jun 5, 2010)

Didn't put that on the poll but prob should have done although I haven't come across anyone who does OTC pct


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## steve_1111uk (Oct 31, 2008)

garry0770 said:


> I notice some of the people on the vote Opted for the not any more choice.
> 
> Why did you stop doing it?
> 
> What were the big differences you noticed coming off cycle with and without?


I would hazard a guess and say many of these are guys who have just decided to stay on and never come off hence pct not required.

Steve


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## Dsahna (May 25, 2009)

garry0770 said:


> I notice some of the people on the vote Opted for the not any more choice.
> 
> Why did you stop doing it?
> 
> What were the big differences you noticed coming off cycle with and without?


Not a big difference in the ability to keep my gains for 2-3 months until i started gear again, as long as I kept training hard and eating well!

Tbh if I had no kids and was still very young id probably do a pct,these days its blast cruise or more accurately blast blast blast cold turkey blast blast


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## Sk1nny (Jun 5, 2010)

Uriel said:


> I'll be honest with you mate and I know you don't want to hear it but you could quite easily bang on 2 stone of beef without gear IMO and before you slage me off I trained 13 years clean and was way bigger than you
> 
> you are asking about stayoing on indefinateley now at cycle 1.....this is fine if you have weighed all the risks up against your goals but just staying on (I do now but have reasosns) for the hell of it is questionable IMO


Reps mate, appreciate your input


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## Sk1nny (Jun 5, 2010)

Dsahna said:


> Not a big difference in the ability to keep my gains for 2-3 months until i started gear again, as long as I kept training hard and eating well!
> 
> Tbh if I had no kids and was still very young id probably do a pct,these days its blast cruise or more accurately blast blast blast cold turkey blast blast


Nice one mate there seems to be loads of people who insist not doing pct is breaking the 11th commandment but not many people who cycle without it


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## Sk1nny (Jun 5, 2010)

steve_1111uk said:


> I would hazard a guess and say many of these are guys who have just decided to stay on and never come off hence pct not required.
> 
> Steve


Those guys must be pickled inside lol


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

garry0770 said:


> Anyone know the answer to this one?


To answer your question, yes these drugs are documented and are used by endocrinologists to determine whether one is primary or secondary acquired hypogonadism.

If you like I have an ebook that is used by endo doctors for these drug uses and doses.

For instance 100mg clomid ED will double LH out put and increase FSH by 20% to 50% over 5 to 7 days.

This is huge.

HCG is also used for fertility and young men whose nuts do not drop, also reverses testicular atrophy in those that don't have testicular problems.

Do they work?

YES



green19210 said:


> Will you please provide me a medical artical/journal to back this point up please? Because the drugs used in PCT can have some awful side effects some of which can be worse than the steriods taken.
> 
> People forget to mention the sides of things like nolva and clomid...sometimes the sides just arent worth running the risk, especially on a low doseage course


Sides are mild and none of them are worse than gear, which all disappear apon discontinuance.

Nolva actually improves lipid profiles that were compromised during the cycle.



green19210 said:


> Well come on then explain....Because i am a firm believer that PCT is hyped up far more than it is actually needed


Really?

Tell that to my brother that did a deca cycle and was low testosterone for one year, he went through hell.

Depression, anxiety, no erections, not being able to have sex, skin problems, confusion, etc. Saddest thing I ever saw in a man.

This is common actually.

Had he done a PCT and used HCG during the cycle, he would have faired much better, and recovered far faster.

I dont mind you having an opinion on things but get the info before the debate.

low dose short cycles one may not even need PCT, same goes for pulsing, and some mild gear like anavar.

But when you take some gear and depending on which ones, the amounts, and the time on, absolutly one should run a PCT or suffer the conciquences.


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## hilly (Jan 19, 2008)

after using pct to recover from being on for 13+ months and it only taking 10 weeks im a firm believe.

mars and hacksii helped me and i tweaked it a little but their basis was what did it and their knowledge is massive.

you boys shud class ureselves as lucky they are here to help and do everything they say IMO


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## Hunter84 (Dec 23, 2008)

What Hackskii said.... :thumbup1:


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## Sk1nny (Jun 5, 2010)

Yer mate would like to read that ebook, cheers will pm you my email address. Much appreciation. Reps dude


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

No need, I will drop it right here:

hypogonadism.pdf


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

*Here's a study showing low-dose Clomid therapy (25mg ED) boosts testosterone by 250% in 4-6 weeks:*

Clomiphene citrate effects on testosterone/estrogen ratio in male hypogonadism, Shabsigh A, Kang Y, Shabsign R, Gonzalez M, Liberson G, Fisch H, Goluboff E. Department of Urology, NY Presbyterian Medical Center, New York, NY, USA. J Sex Med. 2005 Sep;2(5):716-21.

AIM: Symptomatic late-onset hypogonadism is associated not only with a decline in serum testosterone, but also with a rise in serum estradiol. These endocrine changes negatively affect libido, sexual function, mood, behavior, lean body mass, and bone density. Currently, the most common treatment is exogenous testosterone therapy. This treatment can be associated with skin irritation, gynecomastia, nipple tenderness, testicular atrophy, and decline in sperm counts. In this study we investigated the efficacy of clomiphene citrate in the treatment of hypogonadism with the objectives of raising endogenous serum testosterone (T) and improving the testosterone/estrogen (T/E) ratio. METHODS: Our cohort consisted of 36 Caucasian men with hypogonadism defined as serum testosterone level less than 300 ng/dL. Each patient was treated with a daily dose of 25 mg clomiphene citrate and followed prospectively. Analysis of baseline and follow-up serum levels of testosterone and estradiol levels were performed.

RESULTS: The mean age was 39 years, and the mean pretreatment testosterone and estrogen levels were 247.6 +/- 39.8 ng/dL and 32.3 +/- 10.9, respectively. By the first follow-up visit (4-6 weeks), the mean testosterone level rose to 610.0 +/- 178.6 ng/dL (P < 0.00001). Moreover, the T/E ratio improved from 8.7 to 14.2 (P < 0.001). There were no side effects reported by the patients.

CONCLUSIONS: Low dose clomiphene citrate is effective in elevating serum testosterone levels and improving the testosterone/estradiol ratio in men with hypogonadism.This therapy represents an alternative to testosterone therapy by stimulating the endogenous androgen production pathway.

*Study showing a hypogonadic 30-year old male, suffering permanent shutdown from steroid abuse, fully recovered natural hormone levels and HPTA function from 2 months of 100mg Clomid therapy:*

Use of clomiphene citrate to reverse premature andropause secondary to steroid abuse, Tan RS, Vasudevan D.

Department of Family and Community Medicine, University of Texas Health Sciences Center, Houston, Texas 77030, USA.

OBJECTIVE: To report a case of symptomatic hypogonadism induced by the abuse of multiple steroid preparations that was subsequently reversed by clomiphene. DESIGN: Case report. SETTING: University-affiliated andrology practice within family practice clinic. PATIENT(S): A 30-year-old male.

INTERVENTION(S): Clomiphene citrate, 100-mg challenge for 5 days, followed by treatment at same dose for 2 months.

MAIN OUTCOME MEASURE(S): Clinical symptoms, androgen decline in aging male questionnaire, total T, FSH, LH.

RESULT(S): Reversal of symptoms, normalization of T levels with LH surge, restoration of pituitary-gonadal axis.

CONCLUSION(S): Clomiphene citrate is used typically in helping to restore fertility in females. This represents the first case report of the successful use of clomiphene to restore T levels and the pituitary-gonadal axis in a male patient. The axis was previously shut off with multiple anabolic steroid abuse.

*Here's another study showing only 7 days of Clomid therapy increased total testosterone by 100% and, more importantly, free testosterone by over 300% in young men:*

The effects of aging in normal men on bioavailable testosterone and luteinizing hormone secretion: response to clomiphene citrate, J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 1987 Dec;65(6):1118-26.

Geriatric Research, Education, and Clinical Center, Veterans Administration Medical Center, Seattle, Washington.

Serum testosterone (T) levels in men decline with age while serum LH levels, as measured by RIA, increase. To assess if the decline in serum T levels in healthy aging men is paralleled by an age-related decline in the bioavailable non-sex hormone-binding globulin (SHBG)-bound fraction of T and to determine whether there are age-related changes in LH secretion or LH control of T production, we studied 29 young (aged 22-35 yr) and 26 elderly (aged 65-84 yr) healthy men. All men had single random blood samples drawn, and 14 men in each age group underwent frequent blood sampling for 24 h, both before and after 7 days of clomiphene citrate (CC) administration. Both mean 24-h serum total T levels and non-SHBG-bound T were reduced in elderly men compared to those in young men (P less than 0.05), while estradiol and SHBG levels were similar in the 2 age groups. Serum FSH determined by RIA and LH by RIA and bioassay were higher in the elderly men compared to those in young men (P less than 0.05), but the ratios of LH bioactivity to immunoreactivity and the LH pulse frequency and amplitude were similar. After CC administration, mean serum total T and non-SHBG-bound levels in young men increased by 100% and 304%, respectively, while in older men these values increased by only 32% and 8%, respectively. However, CC-stimulated LH pulse characteristics and serum levels of estradiol, SHBG, FSH, and bioactive and immunoreactive LH were similar in the 2 groups. Thus, both at baseline and after CC stimulation, elderly men had significantly lower serum total T and non-SHBG-bound (bioavailable) T levels than did young men, despite similar or increased levels of bioactive LH and similar bioactive to immunoreactive LH ratios and LH pulse characteristics. These results suggest that major age-related changes in the hypothalamic-pituitary-testicular axis occur at the level of the testes and are manifested by decreased responsiveness to bioactive LH. Administration of CC to young and elderly men resulted in similar changes in LH pulse characteristics and LH bioactivity and immunoreactivity, suggesting preserved hypothalamic-pituitary responsiveness in the elderly.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

I have tons of stuff, but instead of having to read all of it, you will just have to take my word for it:lol:

Depending on the gear used, one would be a fool not to do a PCT unless they intend to never come off.

That in itself IMO is not a good idea.


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## Mars (Aug 25, 2007)

green19210 said:


> Will you please provide me a medical artical/journal to back this point up please? Because the drugs used in PCT can have some awful side effects some of which can be worse than the steriods taken.
> 
> People forget to mention the sides of things like nolva and clomid...sometimes the sides just arent worth running the risk, especially on a low doseage course


forget it..........  .


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## jjmac (Sep 20, 2009)

THE PCT KING HAS SPOKEN well said hacks


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## Raptor (Feb 16, 2010)

I normally run a good PCT and HCG protocol... on my last cycle i was lazy and didn't follow my HCG plan properly (the most important i think) and if im honest my Nolva / Clomid PCT i probably bothered taking the tabs 5x

Am more shut down than normal though so will be more careful in future!


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## hardgainr (Aug 14, 2010)

this is interesting, ive been reading alot about cycles, funny thing is you do hear of people getting sides from pct... so do u need a pct pct???? not sure about the whole thing. i have to err on the side of caution so my take on it id have to say is research what your putting in your body, monitor yourself and keep check for sides on cycle, i personnaly will never take anything without liver support, i took milk thiste with methyl masterdrol even though it had added milkthistle/hawthorn berry complex in it.

i think if your balls are shrinking/loss of libido/generally feel surpressed if its possible your shut down or going to shut down you should take measures to correct this, it only makes sense, wether the body could naturally bring itself back im not sure but its the only set of balls ive got and im not leaving anything to chance.

my vote is pct and some form of cycle support/liver protectant all the way im affraid.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Liver support wont be needed if orals are not used.

You wont need liver support for PCT drugs.

I myself only get sides from clomid after being on 3 weeks at 100mg ED.

Even short cycles of orals liver support wont be needed.

In fact stressing the liver with some orals actually elivate IGF-1


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## DG_27 (May 15, 2010)

Hackskii you sure know your god damn stuff IMHO..


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## green19210 (Jul 26, 2010)

Right...I asked for evidence to back up the use of PCT in low dose cycles and I've gotten it. I was never serguesting the PCT os shiit I just believed it wasn't needed in low dose cycles and wanted evidence to disprove that comment. Now it has been supplied and therefore have the answer to me question.

Ill be always the first to admit I'm wrong aslong as there is some good evidence and I will happily say that yeah I was wrong.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Mate, I was not picking on anyone per'se, just that some times we have an opinion on things that might need to be thought out a bit more before comment.

I shutdown hard, some guys dont, this is an individule thing.

But seriously I have seen guys not do a PCT and went through hell, literally guys I have talked to on a daily basis break down and cry like girls.

Other guys dont experiance this.

I have even heard of guys trying to recover and contimplated suicide, they went back on and never came off in fear of going down that path again.

As individual is it all is, asking those that are informed takes alot of the leg work out of the equation.

When someone else suggests its not needed, tell that to the guy that cant make love to his wife not even on viagra and feels insecure she will leave him due to him not being able to make love.


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## Sk1nny (Jun 5, 2010)

Yep you got every mans attention with the can't make love thing lol


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

My brother could not have sex with his wife even on 100mg viagra.

He made mention to me at the time, if 10 of the hottest women in the world were naked in front of him, he could do nothing but look, and the desire to look was not even there.

Bro. had a panic attack at a restraunt during this time.

Low androgens is a serious issue, not just for muscle loss but for all kinds of health issues like, support for lipid profiles, regulating blood sugars, bone loss, depression, to name a few, even the heart has androgen receptors in it for good reason, it is a muscle. :lol:


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## Sk1nny (Jun 5, 2010)

That's a bad case man. Hope the guy recovered from that?

I found a thing on another site

"you might be getting a little paranoid. Sqeeze around the nipple and see if there is a lump underneath. If there is no lump then dont start an anti yet as it can affect your gains. If there is a lump then its probably early gyno. If thats the case take 20mg of nolva ed. if it doesn't get better than up it to 40mg ed. Dont bother with the adex. A low dose test cycle should not require it unless you want to minimize bloat then take it at .25 ed. either way dont worry too much even a bad case of gyno can normally be reversed up to a year after symptoms start with letro and nolva.

Does this ring true?


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

D92 said:


> Hows your Bro doing now hackskii ???


That was 7 or 8 years ago, he is fine now.

If he does anything it is very short stuff like no more than 30 days.

He isnt into gear, I am not really either anymore, it elivates my blood pressure too much.

If I can find something that wont elivate blood pressure, I will probably do another cycle.

Anavar, or primo would be something I would consider, even GH, which can elivate blood pressure and water retention.


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## Sk1nny (Jun 5, 2010)

Good to hear the guy is good again. How long you been off the geer dude?


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## Kezz (Sep 3, 2007)

hardly anyone i know does pct... i always felt as bad doing pct as not... i just trt now


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## vetran (Oct 17, 2009)

ive never run pct in my life,always used to pyramid (old school),ok used to yo yo up and down between cycles apart from that every thing went fine.


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## Jimmy1 (Aug 14, 2003)

tbh ive never really done it

i understand the reason behind it but never needed it

i feel now i am late 30's....i will have a go at it and see if it helps


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## Sk1nny (Jun 5, 2010)

Kezz said:


> hardly anyone i know does pct... i always felt as bad doing pct as not... i just trt now


What's trt dude?


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## Uriel (Oct 14, 2008)

testosterone replacement therapy (1 sus 250 jab every 3 weeks)


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## Sk1nny (Jun 5, 2010)

Cheers uriel.

So if the cycle is 12 weeks you do 12 weeks trt then straight into another cycle


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## Sk1nny (Jun 5, 2010)

Dsahna said:


> First sign mate:thumbup1:
> 
> Strange thing is I used to get gyno on Test whenever I went above 750mg pw,nowadays I seem to be less sensetive because im currently running 2g and theres no sign of any gyno,nolva is on hand just incase though!
> 
> I know no pct has its downside but I accept it!


What are the down sides you have experienced dude?


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## Dsahna (May 25, 2009)

garry0770 said:


> What are the down sides you have experienced dude?


I haven't experienced any obvious drawbacks mate,but im in the minority judging by this thread!

I've even ran test at 1g+ for over 6 months on a few occasions,went cold turkey and never had one hint of lacking sex drive!


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## Sk1nny (Jun 5, 2010)

I'm not sure how many of the people who seem to swear by the pct drugs have actually tried to give them a miss n see what happens.

I'm not into huge cycles yet n prob never will be I want to be about 14.5-15 stone, being quite tall I reckon I could carry this weight in muscle n still be fairly agile for snowboarding. I reckon I will see what happens with no

pct to see if I need it before taking it to prevent something that might not happen.

All those that are gonna scream about getting up to my desired weight naturally I'd just like to say save your breath, roids are the way forward for me but well done to any of you who did it the natty way


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## Sk1nny (Jun 5, 2010)

1g+ for 6 months you must have been like an animal? Did you do any hcg to keep producing?


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## Dsahna (May 25, 2009)

garry0770 said:


> 1g+ for 6 months you must have been like an animal? Did you do any hcg to keep producing?


No!


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## jjmac (Sep 20, 2009)

id never ever do a cycle without PCT, 1st cycle i did was without one, 500mg sus 10 weeks, got depressed as fcuk after, lost libido big time, lost my appitite, and lost gains.

doing a full PCT, clomid and nolva, with HCG throughout the cycle in bursts, i never ever felt any kind of crash, i lost a tiny bit of strength and thats it, still had full motivation sex dive etc.

with all the scientific PROOF that PCT does help you recover MUCH MUCH faster i think people are being complety stupid choosing not to do it. and comments like 'im a firm believer that pct is hyped up...' are stupid. many of the older people that dont PCT dont because in the past when there was not as much known about it they just stopped, then went back on and didnt see any problem, or blast cruise constantly so dont need PCT. to have all the information on PCT so easily available at the start of your steroid use and to still choose not to use it is wreckless IMO.


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## Mars (Aug 25, 2007)

Dsahna said:


> *I haven't experienced any obvious drawbacks mate*,but im in the minority judging by this thread!
> 
> I've even ran test at 1g+ for over 6 months on a few occasions,went cold turkey and never had one hint of lacking sex drive!


Do you actually take long enough off between cycles to warrant a PCT though?

For example: i blast and cruise but i take 8wks off every year totally clean, there is no point in me running PCT as the exogenous androgens are still in my system from 40+ wks of use, so as you said with your 1g + for 6mths, there's no point in cases like ours, but thats the exception.


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## Sk1nny (Jun 5, 2010)

jjmac said:


> id never ever do a cycle without PCT, 1st cycle i did was without one, 500mg sus 10 weeks, got depressed as fcuk after, lost libido big time, lost my appitite, and lost gains.
> 
> doing a full PCT, clomid and nolva, with HCG throughout the cycle in bursts, i never ever felt any kind of crash, i lost a tiny bit of strength and thats it, still had full motivation sex dive etc.
> 
> with all the scientific PROOF that PCT does help you recover MUCH MUCH faster i think people are being complety stupid choosing not to do it. and comments like 'im a firm believer that pct is hyped up...' are stupid. many of the older people that dont PCT dont because in the past when there was not as much known about it they just stopped, then went back on and didnt see any problem, or blast cruise constantly so dont need PCT. to have all the information on PCT so easily available at the start of your steroid use and to still choose not to use it is wreckless IMO.


Reps mate informative and speaking from experience, cheers.

Wrecklessness surely is in our nature or we wouldn't be here talking about how best to recover from the chemicals we inject ourselves with


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## Sk1nny (Jun 5, 2010)

mars1960 said:


> Do you actually take long enough off between cycles to warrant a PCT though?
> 
> For example: i blast and cruise but i take 8wks off every year totally clean, there is no point in me running PCT as the exogenous androgens are still in my system from 40+ wks of use, so as you said with your 1g + for 6mths, there's no point in cases like ours, but thats the exception.


By blast n cruise do you mean you cycle then take minimal test to keep levels up between cycles?

Excuse the noob uneducatedness


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## jjmac (Sep 20, 2009)

blast cruise is like doing a 10 week cycle at normal cycle doses, like 500+mg test with whatever else, then 8-10 weeks cruise is at a low dose as low as 250mg test every 10 days, people vary it, i know someone that cruises on 500mg test, although i dont see how he can call that a cruise its more like a lower blast

then repeat.

so theres never a need for pct because your never actaully off. not a problem if your a bit older and make the choice that you dont mind being on TRT for life, bad if your 20, want to be big, blast/cruise for 5 or 6 years, only to find you can NEVER recover in some cases, then by 30 give up on bodybuilding in pursuit of new hobbies, yet have to remain on TRT for life due to mistakes made in your 20s,


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## Sk1nny (Jun 5, 2010)

I must say I am swaying more towards doing a pct because of the overwhelming response for doing them but there is still that part of me that says what's the worste that can happen. if I try first without and suffer then I do a pct next time


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## Dsahna (May 25, 2009)

mars1960 said:


> Do you actually take long enough off between cycles to warrant a PCT though?
> 
> For example: i blast and cruise but i take 8wks off every year totally clean, there is no point in me running PCT as the exogenous androgens are still in my system from 40+ wks of use, so as you said with your 1g + for 6mths, there's no point in cases like ours, but thats the exception.


It probably isn't worth no,like i say though,if a was younger and hadn't yet had kids id most likely do a PCT to prevent any future regrets!


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## Sk1nny (Jun 5, 2010)

Cruising on 500? I'm cycling on 500 lol


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## jjmac (Sep 20, 2009)

^^ i was cycling 500 when he told me that i thought shiiit, no wonder your twice the size.....

the worst that can happen if you dont pct is your c0ck becomes something you only use to pi55 out of, and you end up with less test than an 8 yr old girl, so lose all the gains you made on cycle, and infact you could end up with less muscle mass than before, but now have depression etc to deal with.

so it would not have been worth doing the cycle in the 1st place


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## Dsahna (May 25, 2009)

garry0770 said:


> I must say I am swaying more towards doing a pct because of the overwhelming response for doing them but there is still that part of me that says what's the worste that can happen. if I try first without and suffer then I do a pct next time


Worst that can happen is going into permanent shutdown and realising you want to start a family with your new lass = FCUKED!


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## Mars (Aug 25, 2007)

garry0770 said:


> By blast n cruise do you mean you cycle then take minimal test to keep levels up between cycles?
> 
> Excuse the noob uneducatedness


Yes.



garry0770 said:


> I must say I am swaying more towards doing a pct because of the overwhelming response for doing them but there is still that part of me *that says what's the worste that can happen*. if I try first without and suffer then I do a pct next time


You will lose more of your gains.

Hacks already explained what certain PCT meds do and thats the reason i advocate PCT, in most cases.

It's common sense really, if you want to keep as much of your hard earned gains as possible then you need to get your natty test up and running again asap, PCT helps do this, it's that simple.


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## Sk1nny (Jun 5, 2010)

Yes very scared of the only using cock to pss with idea!


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## jjmac (Sep 20, 2009)

garry0770 said:


> Yes very scared of the only using cock to pss with idea!


mate it scared the cr4p out of me, it wasnt just that i couldnt get it up, but that i didnt want it to go up either, i spent literally hours watching porn, good porn too, lesbians licking ar5eholes etc lol, c0ck didnt even twitch, viagra did bugg3r all either. took me ages to be able to confidently have sex again, in the end a combination of HCG, proviron, and viagra got me going again.

now with PCT im just as horney as when im on cycle its great, its just when im off i dont walk around with a hardon


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## Sk1nny (Jun 5, 2010)

Yer it all adds up to doing the pct.

Not worried about having kids as I have 18yr old daughter n 13 yr old son. Been trying for another one for couple of years but doesn't seem to be happening anyway.

Sexual dysfunction would be a big problem for me and losing gains a big waste of time and effort.


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## Raptor (Feb 16, 2010)

jjmac said:


> mate it scared the cr4p out of me, it wasnt just that i couldnt get it up, but that i didnt want it to go up either, i spent literally hours watching porn, good porn too, lesbians licking ar5eholes etc lol, c0ck didnt even twitch, viagra did bugg3r all either. took me ages to be able to confidently have sex again, in the end a combination of HCG, proviron, and viagra got me going again.
> 
> now with PCT im just as horney as when im on cycle its great, its just when im off i dont walk around with a hardon


I was shut down once bad too when i 1st started using i had no idea what i was doing and for my 1st couple of years i was on pretty much most of the time but on a vary low dose what was just taking my natty test away... when i came off properly i was fcuked and took a year off Believe it or not it took me about 9 months to become fully recovered and i never want to end up like that again!

If im honest im shut down right now pretty bad now and im 5 weeks + after cycle so i recan im gonna shoot 500iu HCG ed for 5 days and maybe some more if needed followed by a short Clomid blast


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## Sk1nny (Jun 5, 2010)

I'm sold dudes! Pct is the way to go. Just like to say thanks to all those who contributed with good solid posts made from thier personal experience

Also thanks to the people who turned the first few pages into a slagging match, very entertaining and something I knew would happen before starting the post


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## jjmac (Sep 20, 2009)

proviron was like a god send to me mate, ive always got some now in my box of tricks if i ever feel like im not quite recovering sex wise i bang 50mg a day down for a week or two


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## jjmac (Sep 20, 2009)

garry0770 said:


> Yer it all adds up to doing the pct.
> 
> Not worried about having kids as* I have 18yr old daughter* n 13 yr old son. Been trying for another one for couple of years but doesn't seem to be happening anyway.
> 
> Sexual dysfunction would be a big problem for me and losing gains a big waste of time and effort.


pics or we dont believe you:lol: :lol:


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## Sk1nny (Jun 5, 2010)

Is that your missus in the avi raptor?

Cos if it is n you need someone to fill the spot while you are temporarily out of action I would be more than happy to help a brother out!

Only joking dude

How did you end up shut down so bad?


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## Sk1nny (Jun 5, 2010)

jjmac said:


> pics or we dont believe you:lol: :lol:


Lmao she likes nerds mate not muscle bound macho types. You should be right in there lol


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## jjmac (Sep 20, 2009)

haha wicked


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## Raptor (Feb 16, 2010)

garry0770 said:


> Is that your missus in the avi raptor?
> 
> Cos if it is n you need someone to fill the spot while you are temporarily out of action I would be more than happy to help a brother out!
> 
> ...


Lol i wish it was and im not shut down real bad but the last few cycles i have recovered quickly with no probs, this time i was lazy and i guess it catches up as it did to me a few years ago! Time to be careful again to avoid serious shut down... Its something i *never* want to experience again


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## PHMG (Jun 15, 2010)

I'm going to run a strong pct after my cycle. I want kids some day relatively soon and believe it is very important to get things firing properly again.


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## Mars (Aug 25, 2007)

PowerHouseMcGru said:


> I'm going to run a strong pct after my cycle.* I want kids some day relatively soon and believe it is very important to get things firing properly again*.


Very important to keep things firing too, so the use of hCG on a regular basis is essential.


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## Raptor (Feb 16, 2010)

PowerHouseMcGru said:


> I'm going to run a strong pct after my cycle. I want kids some day relatively soon and believe it is very important to get things firing properly again.


The way you have used in the past year is the same style what fcuked me over and left me severely shut down.. with you being fairly new to cycling you wont feel it until its too late


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## Sk1nny (Jun 5, 2010)

Way to cheer him up raptor lol


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## Sk1nny (Jun 5, 2010)

From what I have read on the effects of the pct drugs I could use em to boost our chances of getting her preggo. I could take the hcg n give her the nolva whilst I'm not on cycle. Got to be a winning combination lol. I'm not really bothered if we have another one but the other half is getting all freaked cos our girl Is off to uni in a few weeks n I think it's leaving her feeling a bit empty. I was quite looking forward to the peace n quite tbh lol


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## Mars (Aug 25, 2007)

garry0770 said:


> From what I have read on the effects of the pct drugs I could use em to boost our chances of getting her preggo. I could take the hcg n give her the nolva whilst I'm not on cycle. Got to be a winning combination lol. I'm not really bothered if we have another one but the other half is getting all freaked cos our girl Is off to uni in a few weeks n I think it's leaving her feeling a bit empty. I was quite looking forward to the peace n quite tbh lol


Clomid is better for ovulation induction  .


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## Sk1nny (Jun 5, 2010)

I took 10mg nolva to get rid of itchy sore nips, don't have any lumps under there but thought I'd "nip" it in the bud lol. Halflife of nolva is 14 days so will take another 10 mg tonight then leave it n see what happens

How does everyone else use nolva on cycle in case of sore itchy nips?


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## Mars (Aug 25, 2007)

garry0770 said:


> I took 10mg nolva to get rid of itchy sore nips, don't have any lumps under there but thought I'd "nip" it in the bud lol. *Halflife of nolva is 14 days* so will take another 10 mg tonight then leave it n see what happens
> 
> How does everyone else use nolva on cycle in case of sore itchy nips?


Yeah, of course it is :confused1: , you sure like a wind up mate :lol: .

20mg ED is what i have my clients on for dbol only cycles.


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## Sk1nny (Jun 5, 2010)

Says in the leaflet you get out of a pharma packet of nolva the half-life is 14 days.

Not questioning your experience dude


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## Mars (Aug 25, 2007)

garry0770 said:


> Says in the leaflet you get out of a pharma packet of nolva the half-life is 14 days.
> 
> Not questioning your experience dude


Plasma clearance of tamoxifen is biphasic. It has an initial half-life of 7 to 14 hours with a secondary peak in 4 days or more. This terminal half-life may exceed 7 days. Prolongation of blood levels is believed to be due to enterohepatic circulation.

It can be up to 14 days before the* metabolites* are excreted, but terminal/elimination half life is recognised by the medical authority as 5-7 days.


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## XxDannyxX (Aug 23, 2010)

when researching my first cycle i didn't even think about not taking a pct, that was like my top priority in making sure is right.


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## Sk1nny (Jun 5, 2010)

That clears that up, very informative. Cheers for your help on this mars.

I see why people get annoyed with noobs asking what seem like stupid and impertinous questions but at the same time it's stupid for a noob to not recognise the level of experience there is in this forum.

I have read lots on all the subjects I ask questions on but it's hard to relate this information to something you have no experience of

I'd rather ask loads of stupid question and get to a level of understanding I'm happy to proceed with than just take a leap of faith


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## Sk1nny (Jun 5, 2010)

XxDannyxX said:


> when researching my first cycle i didn't even think about not taking a pct, that was like my top priority in making sure is right.


Gold star for you dannyboy ;-)


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

garry0770 said:


> Good to hear the guy is good again. How long you been off the geer dude?


Over a year, I do play with peptides and some gels and stuff, but nothing worth suggesting anything.

I will be 51 in a month, and I love my beer, so you can see I am not as interested as when I was young.

I need to drop weight over anything else.



garry0770 said:


> Cheers uriel.
> 
> So if the cycle is 12 weeks you do 12 weeks trt then straight into another cycle


Basicly this is blast and cruise approach.



garry0770 said:


> Yer it all adds up to doing the pct.
> 
> Not worried about having kids as I have 18yr old daughter n 13 yr old son. Been trying for another one for couple of years but doesn't seem to be happening anyway.
> 
> Sexual dysfunction would be a big problem for me and losing gains a big waste of time and effort.


I thought you were in your 20's?



The Raptor said:


> I was shut down once bad too when i 1st started using i had no idea what i was doing and for my 1st couple of years i was on pretty much most of the time but on a vary low dose what was just taking my natty test away... when i came off properly i was fcuked and took a year off Believe it or not it took me about 9 months to become fully recovered and i never want to end up like that again!
> 
> If im honest im shut down right now pretty bad now and im 5 weeks + after cycle so i recan im gonna shoot 500iu HCG ed for 5 days and maybe some more if needed followed by a short Clomid blast


I would use a bit more of the HCG, and do EOD dosing higher dose.

Clomid and nolva all together, but run the clomid 2 weeks past clearance time of HCG (about a week), to ensure pituitary stimulation, and run the nolva a couple of weeks or a week longer than the clomid.


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## IanStu (Apr 12, 2009)

I realy think everyone has different needs here, I came off gear 5 weeks ago having been on for a year non stop, I decided not to do any PCT, the reason for this was to see how my body responded so I would know in the future wheather I needed it or not.

I have had no shut down at all, sex drive is still good (not as high as on gear but thats to be expected), in fact the only difference I've noticed in my body is that my nuts are bigger 

Maybe 5 weeks isn't long enough to say definitively that I'm not gonna experience some problems but so far so good.

I'll be starting on gear again in a week anyway, I think 6 weeks natty is long enough for any man tbh :thumb:


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## Sk1nny (Jun 5, 2010)

I'm in my thirties hackskii still young to have an 18 yr old but I do look much younger than I am. Part of the reason for my sudden interest in manning my body up quick. I am getting to an age where I don't want to look like a boy any more. Sometimes i have to explain my daughter is my daughter not my gf lol


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## Sk1nny (Jun 5, 2010)

What have you been on for a year dude? Why stay on for so long are you looking to be 20st?


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## danny1871436114701 (May 2, 2010)

I think I will run the PCT written the sticky thread most times when I come off from now on, it will cost more but from what I have read recovery is immense.

it seems high dosage of hcg but must be that for a reason


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## steve_1111uk (Oct 31, 2008)

IanStu said:


> Maybe 5 weeks isn't long enough to say definitively that I'm not gonna experience some problems but so far so good.


What were you taking? after my last cycle of PC tri test 400 it took 4 weeks for test levels to drop into the top of the normal range so at 5 weeks with long ester you could still be coming down.

Steve


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## Evileddie (Jul 27, 2010)

Well im pretty much sold on PCT after reading this thread.

Thanks to the thread starter.

Now what i need to see is a list of reliable websites that i can get the HCG/clomid/Nolv from without being ripped off!


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## steve_1111uk (Oct 31, 2008)

Evileddie said:


> Well im pretty much sold on PCT after reading this thread.
> 
> Thanks to the thread starter.
> 
> Now what i need to see is a list of reliable websites that i can get the HCG/clomid/Nolv from without being ripped off!


As there perscription meds thats against forum rules.


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## Evileddie (Jul 27, 2010)

steve_1111uk said:


> As there perscription meds thats against forum rules.


Ahh yes thanks for the heads up.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

steve_1111uk said:


> What were you taking? after my last cycle of PC tri test 400 it took 4 weeks for test levels to drop into the top of the normal range so at 5 weeks with long ester you could still be coming down.
> 
> Steve


True story, a gram of sust wont be clear in 5 weeks either


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## Mikazagreat (Apr 10, 2009)

I lookat PCT this way, it's not expensive and might or may not help with recovery as some ppl claim, and i don't think it will be harmfull like the cycle so no point of not doin it, if it helps then fine, if not then fine.


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## Mars (Aug 25, 2007)

ruaidhri said:


> Mars, I'm nearing the end of a 8 week only winny cycle, I think I'mm gonna do test only 500mg a week next.* How long would you leave after a 4 week pct to start next cycle*? And I would like to use HCG during cycle, to help me recover quicker post cycle. How would I use it?
> 
> jjmac, do you use proviron only post cycle or does it have its uses during cycles too?


That's entirely up to you, you know the old addage about time on + PCT = time off but TBH, how many really stick to it.

Personally i run 1000iu of hCG shot 1 x p/w for the length of the cycle and so do most of my clients and all of them are much happier with that protocol than 2 or 3 injections p/w. You don't need to start this till week 2-3 as it takes around 2wks for the pituitary to stop producing GnRH.


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## IanStu (Apr 12, 2009)

steve_1111uk said:


> What were you taking? after my last cycle of PC tri test 400 it took 4 weeks for test levels to drop into the top of the normal range so at 5 weeks with long ester you could still be coming down.
> 
> Steve


Yes I agree, that is a possibility.

I was on a limited palette of test c...deca....dbol...in varying doses over the time, with dbol in relatively short bursts. During the year I gained about 2.5 stone....during my 5 weeks off I have dropped nearly a stone :w00t:

tbh the only reason I came off was because suddenly almost overnight I came out in spots all over my abbs and forearms (weird)...they have now almost completely cleared up so time to get back on me thinks


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## danny1871436114701 (May 2, 2010)

mars1960 said:


> *That's entirely up to you, you know the old addage about time on + PCT = time off but TBH, how many really stick to it.*
> 
> Personally i run 1000iu of hCG shot 1 x p/w for the length of the cycle and so do most of my clients and all of them are much happier with that protocol than 2 or 3 injections p/w. You don't need to start this till week 2-3 as it takes around 2wks for the pituitary to stop producing GnRH.


I lasted 6 weeks lol, did 1st cycle gained 9kg lost 2.5 in pct felt ok bit tired, then had an offer for something and also few other things in my life and thought sod it will go back on, will run HCG and do the hackski pct wen I decide to come off, maybe a 16 weeker this time


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## Sk1nny (Jun 5, 2010)

Mikazagreat said:


> I lookat PCT this way, it's not expensive and might or may not help with recovery as some ppl claim, and i don't think it will be harmfull like the cycle so no point of not doin it, if it helps then fine, if not then fine.


Might not be expensive for some bros but it doubles the cost of my cycle


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## MarkFranco (Aug 26, 2010)

garry0770 said:


> Might not be expensive for some bros but it doubles the cost of my cycle


Might lose all or most your gains thought... Catch 22 haha, I thought PCT was the norm but it seems a fair few just dont bother, rather safe than sorry my self.


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## Dsahna (May 25, 2009)

MarkFranco said:


> Might lose all or most your gains thought... Catch 22 haha, I thought PCT was the norm but it seems a fair few just dont bother, rather safe than sorry my self.


Its not a total waste of time though,lets say you put on a stone over the course of a 12 week cycle and come off,dont do pct and lose the stone you put on!

When its time to cycle again,because you have been a stone heavier in your previous cycle you now have muscle memory on your side too,so you could put that stone back on in about a month and have the next 8 weeks to add new muscle on top,so as long as you dont mind losing between cycles and dont have sex drive problems,you will still make good longterm progress!


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## zelobinksy (Oct 15, 2008)

Well if i were running something like a low dose on stans, var or dbol i probably woudlnt.

My present cycle is test e 500mg p/w + 40mg dianabol for first 6 weeks and then last 5 add some stans 20-30mcg pd.

So i think it will be in order for a pct


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## Graham Mc (Oct 15, 2009)

6 weeks into a test 400 cycle and plan on doing no pct...


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## Mars (Aug 25, 2007)

Graham Mc said:


> 6 weeks into a test 400 cycle and plan on doing no pct...


So are you running any ancilliaries on cycle then to make recovery easier instead?


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## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

Dsahna said:


> Its not a total waste of time though,lets say you put on a stone over the course of a 12 week cycle and come off,dont do pct and lose the stone you put on!
> 
> When its time to cycle again,because you have been a stone heavier in your previous cycle you now have muscle memory on your side too,so you could put that stone back on in about a month and have the next 8 weeks to add new muscle on top,so as long as you dont mind losing between cycles and dont have sex drive problems,you will still make good longterm progress!


Nice Post Dan

You might lose your meat head persona yet:thumb:


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## Dsahna (May 25, 2009)

Perish the thought Joe,if anyone needs a Dictionary when reading my posts they should be fcuking ashamed mate:laugh:


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## Graham Mc (Oct 15, 2009)

mars1960 said:


> So are you running any ancilliaries on cycle then to make recovery easier instead?


HCG, is all my friend if thats what your asking.


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

Graham Mc said:


> HCG, is all my friend if thats what your asking.


I could be wrong here so please correct me.

HCG during cycle to keep the balls firing, but after your cycle using HCG you might need some anti estrogen's so you don't get gyno.

Please correct me if I am wrong, I am still learning.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

winger said:


> I could be wrong here so please correct me.
> 
> HCG during cycle to keep the balls firing, but after your cycle using HCG you might need some anti estrogen's so you don't get gyno.
> 
> Please correct me if I am wrong, I am still learning.


Estrogenic sides from HCG can happen in as little as a day.

I shot 1000iu HCG by itself and bang, next day I had gyno symptoms and felt like a splinter was in my nipple.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

I would do the AI myself.

Can you tell me why you are going to do 10000iu jab of HCG on Saturday?

That is huge, you would get tits so fast you would probably need gyno surgery...lol


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

ok, sorry, was on iphone and my eyes are not good, thought you said 10 thousand:lol:

Well, Mars has info to support the 1000iu once a week, seems to bump twice in waves to support this.

As long as you have an AI then ok, but for me 1000iu will give me gyno symptoms next day and estrogen is quite supressive on the HPTA.

Me pesonally I do 500iu but its up to the person, it is really the amount a week that makes the most sense.

For instance:

Me personally I need 20,000iu of HCG to recover my nuts, it makes no diffrence if it is done during the cycle, post cycle, or a bit of both (my fav) to recover.

If I use half that, I dont recover, unless of course I do a short cycle like a month, but 10 to 12 week cycles I need that much HCG to recover.

Example 12 weeks @ 1000iu a week = 12,000iu HCG, then I run 3 weeks HCG while the gear clears @ 15,000iu total, then 5 shots @ 1000 for a total of 10 days while on clomid and nolva, then 2 more weeks of clomid @ 100mg ED, and 4 weeks 20mg nolva.

So, 20,000iu HCG, 2 weeks clomid after the HCG is stopped, and 4 weeks of nolva after the HCG has stopped.

I can mix it up any way but in the end the nuts need a certain amount of stimulation to allow the clomid to keep them rolling along.


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## mal (Dec 31, 2009)

if you want to fire your nutts up midway through a cycle,i got hcg

today and proviron,would you inject bigger doses 2000+,or would

you just do 500-1000 as i am still going to be on cycle for another

month or so.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Well, good question.

If it takes X number of HCG shots to recover testicular function, it would take less amount to keep or maintain, but you would be using longer.

At the end it takes me 20,000 HCG for testicular recovery, how it is divided makes no diffrence, 20,000 over a cycle, clearance time, and PCT.


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## mal (Dec 31, 2009)

cool, i think il just get more as its so cheap? do 6 shots of 2000

and 500 a week till the end,i got a load of proviron for my

libido,its cerap at the mo,ive got aromasin and nolv to.

provirons making a bit of a comeback i hear.

ive got Gonasi hp 2000 you heard of these?


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Not heard of those.

I got a bunch of the 2000iu chineese stuff and those are in multiuse vials, they are rocket fuel. :lol:


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## dr_squeeze (Jul 28, 2008)

deffinatly do pct 100% an use hcg unless you like having a limp dick and saggy shriveled balls is what iv'e found out from my experience.


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## Sk1nny (Jun 5, 2010)

Ok so after the 70% yes vote I'm giving in to peer pressure and doing my first pct.

I've read and understood hacksiis very impressive pct sticky and had my last jab of pc onerip this morning at 6am. Unfortunately coming off is a sudden decision so I didn't have any hcg on hand I do however have the necessary nolva and clomid and will start taking these on 3rd morning after last jab?

Nolva 1 dose of 20mg ed for 45 days( am or pm?)

Clomid 1dose of 50mg every 12 hours for 30 days.

My balls don't seem particularly small but I've been on a while so they may have shrunk slowly without me noticing

I will throw myself into the gym with vigour and keep my diet in check to try and help maximise gains kept

Anything else I should be doing while on the pct?

Thanks for all the guys who contributed to this thread with personal experience. I must say I had planned to taper off and try my luck without the pct but acne has landed big time. Erupting like fireworks over chest and even abs so I need to come off and get it sorted.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

It all depends.

How long you were on.

How supressive the drugs you used.

How responsive you are to PCT.

Age.

If or not you used HCG during your cycle.

Testicular size means nothing in regards twards recovery.

Asking if you do or do not need HCG is something you need to decide with the information you have.

Discount said information would or could result in a crash, using the information at hand might avoid a crash.

Without enough information to aid in recovery compromises the information used to aid in recovery.

Sorry man, had two shots of tequilla and had two beers..........................


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## rs007 (May 28, 2007)

hackskii said:


> To answer your question, yes these drugs are documented and are used by endocrinologists to determine whether one is primary or secondary acquired hypogonadism.
> 
> If you like I have an ebook that is used by endo doctors for these drug uses and doses.
> 
> ...


PCT is overstated. I am not saying some sort of therapy should not be conducted in some cases, but as I mentioned twice above, the numbers do not add up; percentage improvements in levels that look good on paper, are not good inreality; 50% increase on jack sh1t is still jack sh1t.

You instil fear into people that when they stop using gear they are going to experience X/Y/Z and a high proportion of them will, regardless of whether there is any physiological cause. I thoroughly believe this is what we are seeing today.

Clomid made me depressed and suicidal -as well as temporarily (thankfully) disturbing my vision. You simply could not pay me to take that stuff again, horrible insidious little drug. I'd rather go weeks or months without being able to maintain a hard on than use that again (although this has never happened despite cold cessation) and low test can never make me as depressed as that stuff did. Let me just add I used it way way way back, long before the internet really took off, so no one knew, and no one said it could do these things. I was just using it as it was reccomended to me as a natural test booster, and encountered the effects with no prior mental conditioning of what it would do on the negative side.

Also, for regular cyclers, quite simply, what is the point? Even if you could get it all fixed and up and running, assuming you are going to start again within 2-3 months (I think this is fair for most, myself included) then you are just going to hammer it shut again. In many ways, the human body functions as a machine; and a machine suffers far more wear and tear when ran in a stop-start manner...

I don't buy into PCT as it is currently presented on the net, certainly not for regular cyclers. I can see some logic in routinely administering HCG during cycle, but even then, I think it probably safer - and a more preservative measure - to let it shut down and stay shut down until you decide to come off for good, if you decide to come off for good - I have accepted that I will be on some form of test for the rest of my life and I compeltley happy with that.

Why?

Because no matter how good natural levels are - and the very best a PCT can hope to achieve is natural levels (but I suspect doesn't even achieve this) - it simply cannot compare to the feeling and elevated function in all areas that you experience on cycle. I think this is the root of a lot of peoples issues. They get used to the way they are on cycle, and forget what it was like before. Natural androgen levels can never compare to artificially boosted levels, and it is idiotic to think so...


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## rs007 (May 28, 2007)

PS Hackskii - don't be going off on one, this isn't a personal attack - I just thoroughly believe that you aren't quite right in what you are saying - at the very least there is PLENTY room for debate, none of this is written in stone and I don't think it should be told as if it were :thumbup1:


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## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

Right....

I can now comment legitimately!!!

I have been on AAS i figured continuosly for at least 3 years...

Since Xmas I had to cold turkey off everything for health issues, That included all AAS, all peps, all stims and even all protein shakes and creatine and any other stuff!!!

Obvioulsy I ran no PCT whatsoever, as I didnt come off benefitial drugs to then start putting in [email protected] just as harsh drugs...

Outcome????

Well TBh i feel really good, 2 months down line, sure lower sex drive, but not really an issue as was super high before, feel good, no depression no anything negative..

I have had a month off training and have lost around 10kg, but look healthier...

Blood tests!! everybody says you cant tell recovery unless you have blood tests, well I have had more blood tests in last 2 months than prob most of you your whole lives, everything tested virtually every day..

Long and short of it is, blood tests are an indicator of what possible is going on, but there are toomany factores for anything to be conclusive, as such blood tests are merely a tool and part of a bigger picture!!

How do I know??

I had certain readings (will post in a few weeks when rest of results are in) that were literally off the scale, according to the "norm" I should have been dead and def not walking around feeling fine.

Results were so off scale, docs would pick up my chart, look at it, then look at me and ask if I was indeed the same person as bloods did not indicate a healhy 18st meat head lol..

I believe my body had adjusted to different levels after years of working at enhanced state, as such blood test are im my case at very least no indicator of recovery


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## hsmann87 (Jun 22, 2010)

Have you PCT'd in the past though JW?


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## rs007 (May 28, 2007)

Thats just the thing though Joe, another bug bear of mine - blood tests are viewed as be all and end all.

The simple fact is indicated "normal" ranges in blood tests can in no way be applicable to the typical meat head; we are far from normal.

As you say, a tool - a glimpse/snapshot which MAY show some useful signs of things that are going on - but nothing more, interpretation is key. And again, the research which shows what levels would be "normal" for someone with advanced musculature will prob never be done on ethical grounds.

And finally, apart form possibly highlighting underlying serious health conditions (stress possibly) I couldn't care less about bloods anyway - health to me is about quality of life not quantity - of course each individual has to set their own definition of "health" for themselves.

But as long as I can work, play, shag, eat and am not depressed, overly tired etc etc - I could care less that my blood results don't match up to the accepted range for a normal individual who has never taken steroids, never ate a high protein diet, and never seen the inside of a gym!!


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## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

hsmann87 said:


> Have you PCT'd in the past though JW?


Ran Rohm PCT caps on a couple of occasions


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## Sk1nny (Jun 5, 2010)

I totally agree with everything rs sais in his post ( good posts mate) but here I am still considering starting the pct tomorrow morning. What a fvcking sheep lol.

If jw isn't crashing (yet) after his 3 years of more gear than most would do in 10 years then surely the case rests that a crash can happen to some people but is not something that definitely will happen if we don't take the pct drugs?


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## Andy Dee (Jun 1, 2008)

I for one do not run PCT as im not convinced at all by it and it would seem it causes more problems than its worth.

Its not the start and end of all.

I personally was on around 8-10 months solid then decided to stop, it was a hard desicion though i gotta admit but in the end i chose not to.

as the weeks went by I was expecting the world to end because I didnt run the Bible of PCT and I experienced the following by doing things my own way.

No loss of libido

No acne

Felt slightly tired

Lost some gains (which is inevitable) maybe around 5lbs.

Was firing my own test again within a few weeks.

and that was as sh1t as my life got without PCT.

This isnt an attack on anyone who runs PCT or PCT itself but heres a couple of posts that ive found which took me no longer than 10 minutes

*ive only done 2 cycles and both are what most would call "moderate cycles" but the only problems i had with spots was during pct. During pct my shoulders, chest and back developed spots which to an extent have not really cleared up. I never had acne issues growing up but during pct id wake up with a new spot somewere on my body. Nothing major but definately more than normal.*

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*Hi

Just finished 1 cycle of test e and into my second week of pct(started 3 weeks after last job) from the middle of my cycle until now ACNE are just crazy!!!

They keep poping on my fece one after another 3 new BIG ones every day,

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Just finished test cyp and dbol cycle and as of Monday am now on clomid and nolva. Went to gym today had a good legs session. At the end I was doing some weighted sit-ups when I got a pain in my lower abs area, it then increased in size so much it popped the button off my trousers! And to top it all it started to spasm really bad.*

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This s**t me up a bit, never experienced anything like that before. Had to be helped to a chair like an old man. Lower abs/stomach still Really sore. Return to normal size fairly quickly.*

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Any ideas wot happened?*

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Is likely to have been cause by gear/pct?*

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basically, been about 5 weeks now since last jab, half way through pct, cant seem to get hard and even if i can its only for bout 5mins! how long do people normally take?

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I lost a bit on interest in PCT, stopped now running DAA amongst other things.. and sex drive is pretty much just where it was at before cycle*

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*Hi all

I'm currently in my 2nd wk of PCT and for the last 2 days I have had pains in my left arm.

It feels like a dull ache. (over trained feeling).

It started in my bi/tri and has now reached my forearm.

Is this a side of decreasing test or something else??

Alternatively is it high salt levels as water retention decreases?

All comments would be appreciated.

Ta

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im going to run a low dose test cycle for 10 to 12 weeks. can i run my pct with nolva and proviron alone?*

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tbh i dont like the sound of some of the sides from clomid and i already have pleanty of nolva.*

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the proviron ill take for my sex drive coz i had a issue be4 with a dbol only cycle and mister floppy.*

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*basiclly think ave got the stage now, am a week into pct and my sex drive is non existant cant keep a hard on for more than 5 mins, how longs it normally take to come back!

11 week test 600mg cycle

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Started PCT last night 100mg clomid and 40mg nolva and felt off my head. Split the dose today into 2. First was at 8 this morning n the rest 3 this afternoon but still feal strange. This is my first time taking clomid and i never had anything like this on just nolva. I have been running HCG through out my course. What should i do to stop this ????*

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Any advise welcome*

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*Same happened to me after my one and only cycle. Finished the course end of june and from when I started the PCT three weeks later the spots started and got worse every day up until end of November. Now two months into accutane and antibiotics to get rid of them, pain was nearly unbearable at the worst stage.

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I usually get a few more spots during PCT, I remember reading it is due to your natty test starting back up causing a shock to your system. *

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* i had the same problem during pct and for a few months after, nothing major but just more spots than normal. Buy one of those female body washing mits and a half decent bodyscrub shower gel, i found them in the ladies section at tescos. worked for me.

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I finished 20 week cycle of test e and tren a (tren was only 4 weeks) about 3 weeks ago and although I feel fat and smaller, mentally, I feel amazing. I was expecting to be crying, hugging a pillow whilst watching Hollyoaks, but instead I feel happier, more sociable and more interested in things. I didn't even think I felt that bad on cycle. But now I feel awesome. Strength has even increased and I've only lost about 3lbs.*

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is this normal!? *

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* Some huge guys on here say they don't bother with it as sides are worse from pct drugs than from roids. Others get all humpty and grill the noobs like an age old school teacher lol

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I started my PCT 2 weeks ago - iv run 7 of the 8 2500iu HCG shots and been doing 100mg clomid & 20mg Nolvadex daily with 1 proviron tab. My back has broken out in the most incredible acne iv seen since i was a teenager - loads of nasty spots & whiteheads all since i started - i am assuming this is just a reaction to massive hormone fluctuations but this is common? *

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* i've had bad spot break outs over my back during pct but just put it down to the deca clearing from my system? who knows?

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I get it bad when on pct.and it will not go it's self so past two times I have just ran accutane when I have finished the cycle.now I am running accutane through out my cycle at 40mg a day. *


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Well here are some numbers that support the claims of clomid elevating testosterone levels in men with low levels.

If this works with men with compromised T levels then why not with men that have depressed HPTA levels?

*Here's a study showing low-dose Clomid therapy (25mg ED) boosts testosterone by 250% in 4-6 weeks:*

Clomiphene citrate effects on testosterone/estrogen ratio in male hypogonadism, Shabsigh A, Kang Y, Shabsign R, Gonzalez M, Liberson G, Fisch H, Goluboff E. Department of Urology, NY Presbyterian Medical Center, New York, NY, USA. J Sex Med. 2005 Sep;2(5):716-21.

AIM: Symptomatic late-onset hypogonadism is associated not only with a decline in serum testosterone, but also with a rise in serum estradiol. These endocrine changes negatively affect libido, sexual function, mood, behavior, lean body mass, and bone density. Currently, the most common treatment is exogenous testosterone therapy. This treatment can be associated with skin irritation, gynecomastia, nipple tenderness, testicular atrophy, and decline in sperm counts. In this study we investigated the efficacy of clomiphene citrate in the treatment of hypogonadism with the objectives of raising endogenous serum testosterone (T) and improving the testosterone/estrogen (T/E) ratio. METHODS: Our cohort consisted of 36 Caucasian men with hypogonadism defined as serum testosterone level less than 300 ng/dL. Each patient was treated with a daily dose of 25 mg clomiphene citrate and followed prospectively. Analysis of baseline and follow-up serum levels of testosterone and estradiol levels were performed.

RESULTS: The mean age was 39 years, and the mean pretreatment testosterone and estrogen levels were 247.6 +/- 39.8 ng/dL and 32.3 +/- 10.9, respectively. By the first follow-up visit (4-6 weeks), the mean testosterone level rose to 610.0 +/- 178.6 ng/dL (P < 0.00001). Moreover, the T/E ratio improved from 8.7 to 14.2 (P < 0.001). There were no side effects reported by the patients.

CONCLUSIONS: Low dose clomiphene citrate is effective in elevating serum testosterone levels and improving the testosterone/estradiol ratio in men with hypogonadism.This therapy represents an alternative to testosterone therapy by stimulating the endogenous androgen production pathway.

*Study showing a hypogonadic 30-year old male, suffering permanent shutdown from steroid abuse, fully recovered natural hormone levels and HPTA function from 2 months of 100mg Clomid therapy:*

Use of clomiphene citrate to reverse premature andropause secondary to steroid abuse, Tan RS, Vasudevan D.

Department of Family and Community Medicine, University of Texas Health Sciences Center, Houston, Texas 77030, USA.

OBJECTIVE: To report a case of symptomatic hypogonadism induced by the abuse of multiple steroid preparations that was subsequently reversed by clomiphene. DESIGN: Case report. SETTING: University-affiliated andrology practice within family practice clinic. PATIENT(S): A 30-year-old male.

INTERVENTION(S): Clomiphene citrate, 100-mg challenge for 5 days, followed by treatment at same dose for 2 months.

MAIN OUTCOME MEASURE(S): Clinical symptoms, androgen decline in aging male questionnaire, total T, FSH, LH.

RESULT(S): Reversal of symptoms, normalization of T levels with LH surge, restoration of pituitary-gonadal axis.

CONCLUSION(S): Clomiphene citrate is used typically in helping to restore fertility in females. This represents the first case report of the successful use of clomiphene to restore T levels and the pituitary-gonadal axis in a male patient. The axis was previously shut off with multiple anabolic steroid abuse.

*Here's another study showing only 7 days of Clomid therapy increased total testosterone by 100% and, more importantly, free testosterone by over 300% in young men:*

The effects of aging in normal men on bioavailable testosterone and luteinizing hormone secretion: response to clomiphene citrate, J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 1987 Dec;65(6):1118-26.

Geriatric Research, Education, and Clinical Center, Veterans Administration Medical Center, Seattle, Washington.

Serum testosterone (T) levels in men decline with age while serum LH levels, as measured by RIA, increase. To assess if the decline in serum T levels in healthy aging men is paralleled by an age-related decline in the bioavailable non-sex hormone-binding globulin (SHBG)-bound fraction of T and to determine whether there are age-related changes in LH secretion or LH control of T production, we studied 29 young (aged 22-35 yr) and 26 elderly (aged 65-84 yr) healthy men. All men had single random blood samples drawn, and 14 men in each age group underwent frequent blood sampling for 24 h, both before and after 7 days of clomiphene citrate (CC) administration. Both mean 24-h serum total T levels and non-SHBG-bound T were reduced in elderly men compared to those in young men (P less than 0.05), while estradiol and SHBG levels were similar in the 2 age groups. Serum FSH determined by RIA and LH by RIA and bioassay were higher in the elderly men compared to those in young men (P less than 0.05), but the ratios of LH bioactivity to immunoreactivity and the LH pulse frequency and amplitude were similar. After CC administration, mean serum total T and non-SHBG-bound levels in young men increased by 100% and 304%, respectively, while in older men these values increased by only 32% and 8%, respectively. However, CC-stimulated LH pulse characteristics and serum levels of estradiol, SHBG, FSH, and bioactive and immunoreactive LH were similar in the 2 groups. Thus, both at baseline and after CC stimulation, elderly men had significantly lower serum total T and non-SHBG-bound (bioavailable) T levels than did young men, despite similar or increased levels of bioactive LH and similar bioactive to immunoreactive LH ratios and LH pulse characteristics. These results suggest that major age-related changes in the hypothalamic-pituitary-testicular axis occur at the level of the testes and are manifested by decreased responsiveness to bioactive LH. Administration of CC to young and elderly men resulted in similar changes in LH pulse characteristics and LH bioactivity and immunoreactivity, suggesting preserved hypothalamic-pituitary responsiveness in the elderly.

You guys can call it opinions all you want, but none of you are putting any numbers up that suspect your opionions are anything other than just that, opinions.

I get more PM's on crashing than any other PM's ever.

So, crashing is not in ones head, it is something that is real.

Perhaps it does not happen to everyone.

Its like saying men don't cheat on their wives because they never cheated on their wives and its all just a bunch of BS.

But in reality it happens.

Saying you don't crash does not mean that others do not and is not a valid confirmation of what the reality of the matter is.

They do use HCG for boys with puberty issues, they use clomid for fertility, so lets cut the BS and say that for some these drugs work well.

RS suggesting my brother take a sugar pill when he crashed to avoid his dreadful condition is insulting, I was there, I saw it happen first hand, I never ever felt so sorry for him in all his life.

But perhaps I am just making this up to support my opinion?

If that isn't bad enough there were 3 of us all on Deca cycles, everyone crashed, not just my brother, the other guy crashed too and was put on TRT.

Joe, did you ever get your hormonal levels checked with all those blood tests you took?


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## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

Scott,

my free test was through roof LMFAO

Not sure about others, No

But that was before I came off, since I came off they were not concerned with hormone LH, FSH etc but everything else you need to fucntion or rather stay alive lol

BuT I assume they were low, BUT as I said, I have felt fine, I look fine and I still get super hard ons, so even if they are zero??? To me its irrelevant as Im fully functional as it were..

Which is why in my previous post I said that blood tests can be an indicator but are in no way conclusive to actual performace or sate of an individual, whicj will be born out when I post my blood resulst in a few weeks and you can see for yourself I am off the scale on a few things, but for al intents and purposes, despite medical opinion, I was still functioning normally when according to doctors i shouldh have been bed ridden


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## Andy Dee (Jun 1, 2008)

I did have bloods done and I still have the copy of them, although things were still out of range thats im not disputing but I came back very well and very quickly.

I never said nor implying that PCT doesnt work, Just stated that i dont run it and the reasons why.


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## Mars (Aug 25, 2007)

jw007 said:


> Right....
> 
> I can now comment legitimately!!!
> 
> ...


I have the same experience every year when i take my 8wks off, totally clean, no PCT meds, nothing, mood and libido are good, overall i feel fine.

BUT, after 44wks of steroid use i wouldn't expect any different TBH.


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## Sk1nny (Jun 5, 2010)

I am in no doubt the pct drugs do work to speed up recovery but if we don't take them will we still recover? I think yes


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## Andy Dee (Jun 1, 2008)

Sk1nny said:


> I am in no doubt the pct drugs do work to speed up recovery but if we don't take them will we still recover? I think yes


yes as my post above and bloodwork states.


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## Little_Jay (Feb 6, 2006)

tbh i blame these for my acne breakout, only guessing but next cycle dont think i will


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## Sk1nny (Jun 5, 2010)

Cheers for the info andy. I didn't miss your post mate. Good stuff!


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

I never said PCT was absolute and had to be done.

I did say some guys do need to do it to either avoid a crash or minimize it.

I do feel that is speeds recovery of the HPTA.

Just some more clips from stuff as after all I am just giving my opinion on things:lol:

*Long Term AAS Use:*

Tan, R.S. and D. Vasudevan, Use of clomiphene citrate to reverse premature andropause secondary to steroid abuse. Fertil Steril, 2003. 79(1): p. 203-5.

OBJECTIVE: To report a case of symptomatic hypogonadism induced by the abuse of multiple steroid preparations that was subsequently reversed by clomiphene.

DESIGN: Case report.

SETTING: University-affiliated andrology practice within family practice clinic.

PATIENT(S): A 30-year-old male.

INTERVENTION(S): Clomiphene citrate, 100-mg challenge for 5 days, followed by treatment at same dose for 2 months.

MAIN OUTCOME MEASURE(S): Clinical symptoms, androgen decline in aging male questionnaire, total T, FSH, LH.

RESULT(S): Reversal of symptoms, normalization of T levels with LH surge, restoration of pituitary-gonadal axis.

CONCLUSION(S): Clomiphene citrate is used typically in helping to restore fertility in females. This represents the first case report of the successful use of clomiphene to restore T levels and the pituitary-gonadal axis in a male patient. The axis was previously shut off with multiple anabolic steroid abuse.

Snip form my friend Dr. Scally

Multiple Causes:

A total of 178 men with secondary hypogonadism and ED received clomiphene citrate for 4 months. Sexual function improved in 75%, with no change in 25%, while significant increases in luteinizing hormone and free testosterone occurred in all patients.

It was found clinically that if the primary cause of the problem is corrected, clomiphene can occasionally be tapered and stopped, and the testosterone level will remain normal (unpublished observations). In some patients the total treatment needs to be extended beyond 6 months. Quite frequently in men with ED and hypogonadism, correcting that the sexual problem may require additional methods of treatment. Nevertheless, correcting the testosterone deficit may have other beneficial effects. These may include increasing energy and well-being, as well as prevention of anemia or bone loss, depending on the severity of the hypogonadism. If patients cannot maintain their testosterone levels in the normal range after clomiphene is discontinued, permanent testosterone replacement with intramuscular injection, transdermal patches, or gels should be considered.

A minority, 39%, of the men will clinically respond to this treatment totally and this group will not have to consider artificial means of correcting their sexual dysfunction, or treatment of their comorbid medical or psychological factors. Decreased responses also occurred in men with diabetes, hypertension, coronary artery disease, and multiple medication use. Since these conditions are more prevalent with aging, chronic disease may be a more important determinant of sexual dysfunction. Men with anxiety-related disorders responded better to normalization of testosterone. Assessment of androgen status should be accomplished in all men with ED. For those with lower than normal age-matched levels of testosterone treatment directed at normalizing testosterone with clomiphene citrate is a viable alternative to giving androgen supplements.

Clomiphene citrate is generally well tolerated. Adverse reactions usually have been mild and transient and most have disappeared promptly after treatment has been discontinued. Visual Symptoms - Blurred vision, lights, floaters, waves, unspecified visual complaints, photophobia, diplopia, scotomata, phosphenes and headaches are those most common I have encountered. Reducing the dosage or discontinuing the medication resolves these side effects.

Clomiphene is administered orally and is well absorbed from the GI tract. Clomiphene is a combination of racemic isomers, enclomiphene and zuclomiphene, which may have different pharmacokinetic and pharmacodynamic parameters that have not been completely elucidated. Zuclomiphene is thought to be the more estrogenic isomer. The metabolic fate of clomiphene has not been completely established, but the drug appears to undergo hepatic metabolism. Both unchanged drug and its metabolites are excreted in the feces via the bile. Stereo-specific enterohepatic recycling or sequestering seems to occur also, with the zuclomiphene isomer accumulating over several cycles of treatment. However, even with continued cycles of use, combined maximum plasma levels of enclomiphene and zuclomiphene do not appear to exceed 100 mmol/L. The half-life of clomiphene is reported to be 5 days, but studies with radiolabeled doses have demonstrated that the drug may be found in the feces for up to 6 weeks.

Here is another snip that I think is a nice read:

Q: I have read that Clomid and Novadex are very similar products. Is this true? If so why would you need to take both?

A: The administration of antiestrogens is a common treatment because anti estrogens interfere with the normal negative feedback of sex steroids at hypothalamic and pituitary levels in order to increase endogenous gonadotropin-releasing hormone secretion from the hypothalamus and FSH and LH secretion directly from the pituitary. In turn, FSH and LH stimulate Leydig cells in the testes, and this has been claimed to lead to increased local testosterone production, thereby boosting spermatogenesis with a possible improvement in fertility. There may also be a direct effect of antiestrogens on testicular spermatogenesis or steroidogenesis.

Clomiphene is a synthetic derivative an estrogen. Clomid is a mixed agonist/antagonist for the estradiol receptor. Tamoxifen is a pure estradiol receptor antagonist. Clomid acts as an estrogen, rather than an antiestrogen, by sensitizing pituitary cells to the action of GnRH. Although tamoxifen is almost as effective as Clomid in binding to pituitary estrogen receptors, tamoxifen has little or no estrogenic activity in terms of its ability to enhance the GnRH-stimulated release of LH. The estrogenic action of Clomid at the pituitary represents a unique feature of this compound and that tamoxifen may be devoid of estrogenic activity at the pituitary level.

Perusal of the literature thus indicates that clomiphene acts in several ways in the human male; (a) due to its similarity of structure to stilbesterol it binds with receptor sites in the hypothalamus and pituitary, ( B) It stimulates gonadotrophin secretion by acting on the hypothalamo-hypophyseal system, © the inhibitory effects of high levels of circulating estrogens (produced under the influence of clomiphene) on hypothalamo-hypophyseal axis are possibly prevented by its potent antiestrogenic behaviour. The result of these varied effects of clomiphene is an overall increase in gonadotrophin and estrogen secretion and accounts for their increase under clinical conditions.

In one study the administration of tamoxifen, 20 mg/day for 10 days, to normal males produced a moderate increase in luteinizing hormone (LH), follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH), testosterone, and estradiol levels, comparable to the effect of 150 mg of clomiphene citrate (Clomid). Treatment of patients with "idiopathic" oligospermia for 6 to 9 months resulted in a significant increase in gonadotropin, testosterone, and estradiol levels.

Cochran database summary showed ten studies involving 738 men were included. Five of the trials did not specify method of randomization. Antiestrogens had a positive effect on endocrinal outcomes, such as serum testosterone levels. Antiestrogens appear to have a beneficial effect on endocrinal outcomes, but there is not enough evidence to evaluate the use of antiestrogens for increasing the fertility of males with idiopathic oligo-asthenospermia.

In the over one-thousand patients I have treated for HPTA normalization after AAS cessation i have used the combination of clomiphene citrate and tamoxifen. I have used clomiphene citrate alone in many cases. I added tamoxifen to the protocol to see if I could get a better clinical response. This seemed to be the case although I have not had the opportunity to evaluate the data. When both compounds are used the clomiphene citrate is discontinued first and the tamoxifen is continued for 2 more weeks. as I stated in the post on hCG injections it is imperative to be tested while on the medications. thus one would be tested ~3-5 days before the tamoxifen expires. In the 1st stage described in the hCG post one tests for testosterone only. the serum T level determines whether or not the hCG is halted. In the typical situation the hCG is stopped and the CC & tamoxifen continued. the lab tests at the end of the oral meds is LH & T.

http://www.mesomorphosis.com/articles/scally/ask-michael-scally.htm#ixzz1DgqEU0dM

Again, if you don't want to do a PCT then don't, if you do then do, but when someone says it is not necessary, they are merely giving their opinion with nothing other than their own opinion to back this up, and to that, I say ignorance.


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## Andy Dee (Jun 1, 2008)

No worries, at least one person who has posted on this page has also had a copy of them very results for anyone who is having any doubts


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

scouse_jay said:


> tbh i blame these for my acne breakout, only guessing but next cycle dont think i will


If acne is an issue, then try tanning, and also use some milk of magnesia and rub it on the effected area.


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## rs007 (May 28, 2007)

hackskii said:


> Again, if you don't want to do a PCT then don't, if you do then do, but when someone says it is not necessary, they are merely giving their opinion with nothing other than their own opinion to back this up, and to that, *I say ignorance*.


I say you are insulting anyone that disagrees with you then?

What about experience.

The way you write that, it is almost as if you are saying if someone has no letters after their name, they can't possibly be right. Now I don't have letters after my name (unless those letters are C.U.nt :lol: ) but at one time years ago I could have conversed with the best. I have got rusty on the big words. Why? Because the answers don't lie down that path I am afraid.

Brave new world.

Your studies you repeatedly quote, while interesting, are usually on isolated individual cases - fair to say these can't prove a trend - and like all studies I guess, are open to interpretation and can be pulled to shreds. As I say, interesting tho.

I did find the 250% increase in test levels on a low dose of clomid more promising, that might be under the dose threshold that gave me issues, lowest dose i have tried was 50mg, so can't say for certain - but I suppose with everything, the lower the dose you can successfully use to achieve the aim, the better.

250% still not a hell of a lot in real terms tho if producing next to zero, but as I say, a bit more merit in that one.

But I know form experience coming off clean is best for me, and just waiting - being patient. Everyone wants a magic bullet - although I am perfectly willing to accept some individuals may need clinical intervention... my argument is that this number of individuals is a hell of a lot lower than those who just run PCT parrot fashion because they are led to believe they must.

But hey, what do I know - I'm ignorant, right


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## Andy Dee (Jun 1, 2008)

rs007 said:


> I say you are insulting anyone that disagrees with you then?
> 
> What about experience.
> 
> ...


dont beat yourself up to much about that, you maybe seen as ignorant but at least people believe what you say which is more than can be said for my posts


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## Sk1nny (Jun 5, 2010)

Again, if you don't want to do a PCT then don't, if you do then do, but when someone says it is not necessary, they are merely giving their opinion with nothing other than their own opinion to back this up, and to that, I say ignorance.

What about personal experience hacksii? Does it count for nothing? What about 30% of the people on the vote that checked " no / not any more or sometimes" ( including one of the mods and some of the guys who have been in the game a long time) not a single one of those guys have posted on this thread saying they have had any problems or negative effects at all from not running a pct. Is that not research? It might just be the personal experience of a load of meatheads ( sorry guys but it's true  but they are living experiments and the most obvious choice of study cases in my humble opinion.

Not a personal attack, of course we all respect that you know your stuff. Nobody can argue with that But to call people ignorant and discount their collective experience is of course ignorance in it's self surely?


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## rs007 (May 28, 2007)

Sk1nny said:


> *Not a personal attack*, of course we all respect that you know your stuff. Nobody can argue with that But to call people ignorant and discount their collective experience is of course ignorance in it's self surely?


Just want to reiterate my posts are not a personal attack on you Hacks. Hell mate, as a person and a free thinking soul, I love ya mate. Honestly I do.

My attack (if you can call it on that) is on the fear culture surrounding PCT as it is pushed today - yes, pushed. The fear of it is creating just as many problems as the placebo of it solves :lol:

As I say there may be genuine cases where clinical intervention is required, I would not argue that at all; but ask any GP if the incidence of certain illness has went up since the advent of google, they will tell you yes - people read, peoples mind starts going overdrive, peoples minds creates or at least augments the physical symptoms manifested.

The mind is the most powerful tool we have in our arsenal - but it is also the weakest, the one that can hold us back the most, the one that can inflict the most pain - I'm only really grasping that fact myself now. Fear plays on that, fear creates stress and worry - those two factors alone could account for most of the symptoms associated with coming off AAS - lack of libido and ED to name but two... PCT in most cases IMO and IME gives users the mental crutch, the placebo mainly, to overcome this...

Again I stress not discounting that some cases may require medical intervention. I can't state this enough.

But yeah, 100% not a personal attack on you Hackskii although I do think you can't help taking it as such, hell, if anything this just shows your passion for the subject at hand - something I can never feel - so I am envious on that.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

How could I take it anything but an attack when it was suggested that my brother could have taken a sugar pill and felt better.

Or that he is inferred as weak minded?

Nobody saw what I saw, my best friend in life, my closest person in my life melt down into a sad pathetic shadow of the man he is.

That hurt me more than anything.

He almost lost his marriage, he was an emotional wreck and had the testosterone levels of a girl.

Not for a month, but a freaking year.

His skin looked like he had hives all over his body.

Could not get an erection with Viagra.

Zero libido, no motivation, and an emotional wreck.

Suggesting he is weak minded or a sugar pill (placebo) would have helped just chapped my ass.

He was diagnosed hypogonadism and there was nothing the doctors could do.

This was the sole reason I took to finding out all the information I could about his condition.

Had I know back then what I know now I can say with certainty that never would have happened.

Why?

Because as being a twin, I have done it myself with awesome success.

Many reasons guys don't crash, it perhaps might even be they go back on once the androgen's drop while being off actually being on due to longer esters.

Shoot a gram of sust and go to the doctors a month later and you still will be above or within normal levels.

I have been around a very long time, seen many things, am on many boards.

But, when guys feel like suicide, cant go under 400mg of test a week without crashing, want to come off and you tell them it is all in their head or suggest a sugar pill.......................Yah, that's ignorance, sorry but it is.

Call a guy weak minded when he has a real problem is not part of the solution.

Another thing, there is more supporting the use of clomid to bump LH levels when they are severely diminished, than your own personal experience.

Numbers don't lie, I didn't make these things up, many members use PCT protocols and recover well and better than nothing at all.

You are talking to a guy that was put on TRT years ago due to not recovering naturally.

Hooked up with a doctor that has helped over a thousand men, he helped me big time to get off TRT and run a normal life.

I hated TRT, I felt worse than I do now.

For arguments sake, sure some don't or wont need to do a PCT, yet others will, suggesting they are weak is just ignorance and you know it.


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## rs007 (May 28, 2007)

No it isn't ignorance hackskii - you have interpreted it incorrectly.

Like you say I don't know anything of wingers situ - I said in many situations, and I do believe that. The mind is simply one of the strongest tools we have, it can and does turn against you tho, producing very real issues - ask any psychologist.

For Winger to have had such an extreme reaction simply isn't normal; if you can't see or even accept the possibility that there may have been many other factors to this then who is ignorant?

I knew you had took the huff at something :lol:


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## rs007 (May 28, 2007)

PS long ester argument may have some merit; but not in my case give me a little credit - and, I didn't say you made up the numbers, I am arguing that they aren't that relative as much more increase would have to be witnessed

We are talking percentage increases, it is simple maths that even huge percentage increases on next to nothing, still leave you with next to nothing... that is indisputable


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## rs007 (May 28, 2007)

Just to remind you, here is what I said re wingers case:



> Deca does seem to be more guilty than most of causing this, but I am entirely fair in saying a lot of those effects can be entirely psychologically mediated; give a man a sugar pill and tell him it will stop him getting a hardon, chanced are he wont get a hardon. Not directly belittling wingers case, but there are more factors to this. Add to that the fact that maybe he just shouldnt be using gear full stop, some folks just don't get on with certain things in life... Conversely I have never had any serious lasting issue, just stopping... could trade anecdotals all day long, you'll run out long before I will


Never once implied taking a sugar pill would have cured him; I said that if you take a healthy guy, give him a sugar pill, but tell him this is a hardon killing pill, then the chances of that guy not being able to achieve or maintain a satisfactory hardon will be huge.

You misconstrued me completely.

I only raised the question that in wingers case there must have been more to it, which given that most people do not have his type of reaction, is a fair comment? no?

Ultimately, we are arguing over nothing - you got him sorted, via your route etc, and that is all that counts - hey haven't I said some 5+ times now that I am perfectly willing to accept that some cases will need clinical intervention?

I never implied that anyone was weak minded - I simply pointed out one well documented - certainly more well documented than any of the other stuff we are discussing - facet of being human. You call it weak minded - your words, not mine - I think it is fantastic, amazing and mind blowing - just how the mind can help us, or crush us, form the slightest of cues.

Take a guy who is using gauranteed real gear. He is gaining. Half way through the cycle, whisper in his ear that you have seen it reported his stuff is fake. Watch his gains falter - this will happen to most folks.

Take the opposite of my last example - give a guy a sugar pill and tell him it is viagra - most will report better hardons?

Post up on a bodybuilding site that when coming off gear you will get zero sex drive, zero hardons, feel suicidal, feel homicidal - see my point?

Thats all I was saying - you have picked that up, ran with it, and are now personally offended - well tough, I didn't mean what you have taken, and I question your right to be offended :lol:


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## LittleChris (Jan 17, 2009)

I have been 'off' for some and haven't run a PCT. Going to take a shot later though so will be back 'on' I suppose.

6days off is enough time for recovery


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

rs007 said:


> For Winger to have had such an extreme reaction simply isn't normal; if you can't see or even accept the possibility that there may have been many other factors to this then who is ignorant?


600mg deca for 13 weeks and his test levels were below normal for a year, even had a 68 testosterone level when men are 320-960 range.

Oh, and the other guy on the same gear as us, for the same time, same dose, but about 5 years younger crashed too.

Yep, he went to the endo doctors too and they ended up putting him on TRT.

So, 3 guys, 3 crashes, 3 exact same cycles with the same gear all had the same thing happen.

How can I accept the possibility that it was anything other than the gear?

I am very much aware of the mind and its ability to do things.

I personally take a moment every single day to meditate and I can put myself where ever I want and free myself from all the static that occupies the mind.

I can lower my heart rate, lower my breathing, increase clarity, and tap into euphoria easily.

With testosterone levels low for a year, no placebo will offer any aid here, this I am quite sure of.

The numbers on the men that use clomid just for one instance speak clear, it does work.

Denial is not a river that runs in Egypt.

Next time someone PM's you about suffering from a nasty crash, tell them its just in their head, that should fix them up:lol:


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## Kezz (Sep 3, 2007)

when i came off gear i used to feel a bit low for a couple of months then seem to bounce back.. but didnt bother with pct

I used to think to myself what is the point in recovering if i am going straight back on after it, but for the last couple of years i have just been using low amounts of test, 500mg pw for 16 weeks then 16 weeks oof 125 mg.

I suppose i'm worried now if i come off completely now i will age fast and become weak!! its like a lottery, there are winners and there are losers u just have to hope you hold the right ticket,lol


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## Sk1nny (Jun 5, 2010)

Sorry if this is really personal hacksii but I have some questions that as you pointed out yourself you are in a unique position to answer. how did you start your brothers natural test again after such a long crash? Was he on hrt for any of this time? Do you think your 45 day pct would bring someone back from a crash? If you tell me to f off I will understand completely


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Sk1nny said:


> Sorry if this is really personal hacksii but I have some questions that as you pointed out yourself you are in a unique position to answer. how did you start your brothers natural test again after such a long crash? Was he on hrt for any of this time? Do you think your 45 day pct would bring someone back from a crash? If you tell me to f off I will understand completely


I didnt start him back, I didnt have the information back then.

He crashed and I sat and watched him.

I do feel that it was the deca, and its long ester, the longish cycle, and its metabolites that kept him low.

dude had testicular atrophy even worse 3 months post cycle.

I mean 3 months later LH was nothing along with his testosterone levels.

I understand now why, and although it would appear to be an isolated incidence its not actually.

He did use some HCG and within two days he felt far far better, but the amount he took was not enough for what he needed.

I cant prove it, but I feel deca's metabolites keep playing havoc for some strange reason, and it is or will show on a blood test a year later.

Shutdown for a year or longer are not unheard of.

At the very same time I said fcuk that, im not going through that so once I started to crash, I went on low dose testosterone to ride it out.

I eventually went off and although I didnt crash, I could not have sex if there were a room of naked women around me begging me for sex, it was just impossible.

So, I never ever did deca again, and would never as long as I am not going to go on TRT.

It is an awesome drug, actually for gains to sides probably my favorite, but it did make me aggressive.

If I stick to testosterone, EQ, dbol, and others I dont have the issues.

Again, I do feel that it exerts some kind of influence on the pituitary that allows LH to be seriously compromised even months later as I witnessed with my brother 3 months post cycle when clearly the gear was out of his system.

He did introduce HCG and felt far better as some stimulation to the testicles was apparent, only to crash again when it was all done.

I do think the 45 day would have done something, and at 600mg it might take a month or longer for that long ester to clear, hell, perhaps 5 to 6 weeks even, so at the very least waiting for it to clear then do a PCT he probably would have been much closer to the mark.

Only way I would do deca again would be a blast on deca, then a cruise on test, or even a blast on test after then cruise.

I do feel there has a massive influence due to the gear used, and the long esters.

Suppression is also a thing with time on, if one is on a long time with big doses, then comes off it may take a while for that to clear the system, again sustanon at some of the doses guys take can take over a month to clear, all the while LH function is nil and still further suppression can be apparent.

All gear suppresses, some more than others, time one, type of gear, amounts, age, if HCG was used during, if an AI was used with aromtizable gear, all will play in the recovery factor, and lets not forget predisposition of those that just tend to recovery slowly.

I do think some guys can go cold turkey and be fine, but I do honestly feel that if they use HCG during, use an AI during with certain gears, and a SERM post cycle, I do feel they would recover faster.

One comment was that the use of PCT meds are as bad or worse then gear is just crazy.

I don't get any sides with PCT meds other than gyno issues with HCG with no SERM, in no way do they put me in Stage II Stroke range like gear does.

Guys that say they are worse are kidding them selves, there are many other SERMS, and AI's that can be substituted if sides are not acceptable.

That boils down to lack of knowledge more than anything else.

One guy once said he didn't have any problems post cycle, and felt due to his libido being normalish he was recovered, but dude was taking 200-300mg proviron every day.....lol


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## Sk1nny (Jun 5, 2010)

That's a harsh story mate. Could there have been something wrong with the gear you guys took? I have thus far steered clear of deca and don't plan on using it in the future. I should have started pct today but haven't as yet. My last long ester jab was 4 weeks ago and was 125mg test e as I had tapered down. My last short est jab was 3 days ago at 6 am. I reckon I should be clear now but I woke up today hornier than ever and really buzzing. I am taking nothing at all at the moment and plan to not use anything untill I see a definate sign I need it. I had planned on starting pct today but if I have no symptoms is it worth starting a cure? Genuine question btw not sarcasm as it could be interpreted.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

I dont know how long you were on, nor what gear you used.

If you said you were blasting and cruising for the last 4 years I would suggest yes you do something.

If it was a short cycle like 8 weeks then you can do nothing.

I think it really lies down to the lack of responce from the testicles.

If lets say the nuts have not recieved any stimulation then the depth of supression to the nuts (atrophy) for a prolonged period of time might be compromised.

If some stimulation is recieved to the nuts then supression is lessoned.

Its like breaking your arm.

No stimulation to muscle in a cast would result in atrophy.

If some stimulation was to the muscle then atrophy would be less, and increased blood flow to said muscle would offer better rewards to said muscle to bounce back to the norm would be less compromised.

Same with the nuts.

So, how would this be done?

Use something that stimulates the testicles to perform their normal function.

HCG.

The pituitary responds to other things, AI's, SERMS, and what have you, even diet.


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## Raptor (Feb 16, 2010)

Sk1nny said:


> That's a harsh story mate. Could there have been something wrong with the gear you guys took? *I have thus far steered clear of deca and don't plan on using it in the future.* I should have started pct today but haven't as yet. My last long ester jab was 4 weeks ago and was 125mg test e as I had tapered down. My last short est jab was 3 days ago at 6 am. I reckon I should be clear now but I woke up today hornier than ever and really buzzing. I am taking nothing at all at the moment and plan to not use anything untill I see a definate sign I need it. I had planned on starting pct today but if I have no symptoms is it worth starting a cure? Genuine question btw not sarcasm as it could be interpreted.


Good call.... people say Tren is worse but its not imo


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Raptor said:


> Good call.... people say Tren is worse but its not imo


First of all tren has a far less long acting ester, the acetate ester is fast, deca is one of the longest esters there is, the deconate ester.

Nuf said.

NPP might be a better option but hell, the nandrolone gear scares me big time:lol:


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## Sk1nny (Jun 5, 2010)

I started using ass in July last year and used test e/ c at doses up to 1.2g ew also ran dbol (lots of) and a short course of winni. I tapered down to do only 125mg ew for 4 weeks then nothing for 3 weeks until feb 1st when I had planned to have a break but as the acne almost stopped in this time I thought f it and got back on it with 2ml pc onerip eod. First week was great I shed fat and gained lean mass like I couldn't believe then suddenly I was covered in more spots than a leopard and this time it looks like I'm going to be scarred by them  so off I came. I am 33 and currently 13st/4 up from 10st/8 6 months ago. I was up to 14 but dropped a bit as the long esters cleared.

I havent used any hcg in all that time. Now 2 days after pct should have started and I feel great. Horny as ever and morning glory in good form, no depression and workouts going well, good intensity and motivation. So one part of the pct myth has been busted. "No there isn't a set amount of time after stopping aas to start pct" I think most people would agree?

I did get carried away with this first cycle and I don't think blast cruise is for me ( yet) I plan on doing time on time off for the time being.

For now though I'm going to hold off on the pct drugs until I feel symptoms of shutdown. I will check in on this thread daily to see how it's going and gauge my hopefully natural recovery


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## cult (Nov 7, 2009)

Good thread this is. Ive nothing to add myself but all i can say is i finished my 1st cycle on xmass eve waited 2 weeks then done nolva day1 60mg, 13 days 40mg, 13 days 20mg and now its been a few weeks since ive been on but i now feel like sh1te. I just cant be ****ed eating or training.

I started at 13.4 but im now at just 14. My heaviest was 1lb under 15stone but its been slowing fading away since ive came off and its a major head fcuk. I've also been getting really really mild dizzy spells and when im in a car to long i feel this coming on more.

When im out and about in teh car and when home im feel really tired, is this part of pct . I was thinking of going to the doc myself and getting bloods done again, got them done before cycle so i know if ill be recoverd or not.


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## Dezw (May 13, 2009)

PCT is a must.

I see so many people not bothering with it then complaining months later of low test issues and also the loss of their gains.


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## Sk1nny (Jun 5, 2010)

The cultivater

Good post mate, you seem to be an example of someone who didn't do a proper pct and is now wondering if your symptoms (unusual as they are) are related to low test levels. If you get the bloodwork done let us know how it goes. Hope they go well for you mate 

As for your gains I'd say 10lbs is a pretty good amount of mass to keep from a cycle. What did you run and fir how long?


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## cult (Nov 7, 2009)

Sk1nny said:


> The cultivater
> 
> Good post mate, you seem to be an example of someone who didn't do a proper pct and is now wondering if your symptoms (unusual as they are) are related to low test levels. If you get the bloodwork done let us know how it goes. Hope they go well for you mate
> 
> As for your gains I'd say 10lbs is a pretty good amount of mass to keep from a cycle. What did you run and fir how long?


It was a 12 week 500mg test-e with adex EOD at 0.5mg . Ive been putting thebloods off untill at least 8 weeks after cycle then ill pop down to teh docs and have them done. Tbh its also my life at the moment as ive fcuk all to do and this time of year is also a pain in the 4rse. I just can't wait to pull myself out of this downer and get back to were i was mentaly concerning training. Ive to go away next week with the lads so it'll be after that ill get bloods done and let you all know how it went. Ive it in my head to do a tbol cycle next because i ve read the pct isnt as hard on you.


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## don1 (Jul 9, 2009)

cultivator said:


> Good thread this is. Ive nothing to add myself but all i can say is i finished my 1st cycle on xmass eve waited 2 weeks then done nolva day1 60mg, 13 days 40mg, 13 days 20mg and now its been a few weeks since ive been on but i now feel like sh1te. I just cant be ****ed eating or training.
> 
> I started at 13.4 but im now at just 14. My heaviest was 1lb under 15stone but its been slowing fading away since ive came off and its a major head fcuk. I've also been getting really really mild dizzy spells and when im in a car to long i feel this coming on more.
> 
> When im out and about in teh car and when home im feel really tired, is this part of pct . I was thinking of going to the doc myself and getting bloods done again, got them done before cycle so i know if ill be recoverd or not.


Why so much nova? Wheres the hcg at least?


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## cult (Nov 7, 2009)

don1 said:


> Why so much nova? Wheres the hcg at least?


I was advised to take this,lol, ill be using hcg next time around thou.


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## Sk1nny (Jun 5, 2010)

cultivator said:


> I was advised to take this,lol, ill be using hcg next time around thou.


Sounds like you gained a lot from your cycle mate especially with the use of an ai. You seem to have done well mate. Are you training well now? If you are frustrated by being off then take it out on the weights  try some higher reps with Lower weights for a few weeks to limber up your new muscle mass then hit them hard. I wondered if I would find gym had less meaning when you know the rapid results aren't going to come but I am loving it. You have to compare yourself to how you was before the cycle not when on cycle and it's easier to be positive.


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## cult (Nov 7, 2009)

Sk1nny said:


> Sounds like you gained a lot from your cycle mate especially with the use of an ai. You seem to have done well mate. Are you training well now? If you are frustrated by being off then take it out on the weights  try some higher reps with Lower weights for a few weeks to limber up your new muscle mass then hit them hard. I wondered if I would find gym had less meaning when you know the rapid results aren't going to come but I am loving it. You have to compare yourself to how you was before the cycle not when on cycle and it's easier to be positive.


I understand what your trying to say but TBH i need a good kick up the 4rse when i get like this. I know i done great with teh gain's, i couldnt believe it when looking in teh mirror but now i feel skinny and it's a major head fcuk. Ever since ive came off and done squats ive felt fcuked, theres been time's that i just want to put the head down on the floor and if i were to close my eye's for at least 30sec's then i'd be out cold sleeping,lol, thats how bad it got so i had to drop the squat'sfor now. Ive been trying to mix it up abit and its kind of helping a small bit. This is my 4th day off and going to go back on tues and start again. Even if i lose al my gain's then it is just getting put dowwn as experience and ill have to come at it at a different angle. I actuly love training but recently it hasnt been so good but i know ill be back at it again soon.


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## Sk1nny (Jun 5, 2010)

rs007 made some good posts about mental attitude and using that big lump of muscle in your head to remain positive and focused


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## Guest (Feb 13, 2011)

using lower weights and higher reps in pct is a recipe for muscle loss.

you built that muscle with heavy weights, you keep it with heavy weights


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## Sk1nny (Jun 5, 2010)

ALR said:


> using lower weights and higher reps in pct is a recipe for muscle loss.
> 
> you built that muscle with heavy weights, you keep it with heavy weights


Imo or ime is what usually follows a statement like that chap


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## Dagman72 (Apr 2, 2009)

Sk1nny said:


> rs007 made some good posts about mental attitude and using that big lump of muscle in your head to remain positive and focused


Great quote from RS.

This is what happens to a lot of people when of, probably why people never come of.

Cultivator - you need to eat, maybe that is why your tired and even getting dizzy spells.


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## Sk1nny (Jun 5, 2010)

Another day no pct and I am feeling great still. Training going well although im not quite as strong as I was my workouts are still intense. Had sex 2x yesterday, morning and night both good sessions and no fatigue or any sign of mr floppy lol. Im hoping this is a good sign im not heading for a crash. I did however feel muscular cramps which is unusual. My work is quite intense and physical and I got through the day today really well if I had low test I wouldn't last a morning at work so let's hope tomorrow is another day like today


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## Guest (Feb 14, 2011)

Sk1nny said:


> Imo or ime is what usually follows a statement like that chap


Not when it's a fact. Google the research if you must, intensity (ie weight on bar + speed) is what builds a muscle and keeps a muscle. You can lower volume by 2/3 if intensity is maintained muscle will be also. Dropping the weight WILL result in muscle loss


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

ALR said:


> Dropping the weight WILL result in muscle loss


What if volume and frequence are elivated?


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## Sk1nny (Jun 5, 2010)

ALR said:


> Not when it's a fact. Google the research if you must, intensity (ie weight on bar + speed) is what builds a muscle and keeps a muscle. You can lower volume by 2/3 if intensity is maintained muscle will be also. Dropping the weight WILL result in muscle loss


 so it's a fact that harder muscle is more likely to go before more watery muscle? I can't be bothered to google that because I know it not to be true. Hardening and maintaining is done with higher reps ( generally ) and building more is done with lower reps ( generally ) imo. Any different routine would be effective when suddenly losing the strengh gains from aas because it allows you to adjust your targets instead of consistently failing to reach the ones you were hitting when you felt like superman. It's all about Keeping positive. Anyway cheers for the input. You have your opinion I have mine


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Guys, there is not cut and dry way of training.

70% of your 1 rep max works 90% of both slow and fast twitch muscle fibers.

It all has to do with stimulation, and that is done with combintations of volume, frequency, and intensity.

If intensity is low and volume is high, its all good.

If frequency is low and intentisy is high, all is good.

If volume is low yet frequency is high, then all is good.

If volume is high, frequency is high, and intensity is high, you are overtraining:lol:

Its all about a adaptive responce to stimulation of the muscle.

This is why guys change up their routines, that is never a bad idea.


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## Guest (Feb 14, 2011)

Sk1nny said:


> so it's a fact that harder muscle is more likely to go before more watery muscle? I can't be bothered to google that because I know it not to be true. Hardening and maintaining is done with higher reps ( generally ) and building more is done with lower reps ( generally ) imo. Any different routine would be effective when suddenly losing the strengh gains from aas because it allows you to adjust your targets instead of consistently failing to reach the ones you were hitting when you felt like superman. It's all about Keeping positive. Anyway cheers for the input. You have your opinion I have mine


If you've got "watery muscle" you prob need to run an AI on cycle.

You already said in this thread you've seen some strength loss in coming off, I'm in PCT right now and have not lost any.


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## Dagman72 (Apr 2, 2009)

ALR said:


> If you've got "watery muscle" you prob need to run an AI on cycle.
> 
> You already said in this thread you've seen some strength loss in coming off, I'm in PCT right now and have not lost any.


When I was on PCT I was still gaining and getting stronger - wait and see once you have finished PCT and being natty for a few weeks - you will lose some gains and strength.


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## Guest (Feb 14, 2011)

Dagman72 said:


> When I was on PCT I was still gaining and getting stronger - wait and see once you have finished PCT and being natty for a few weeks - you will lose some gains and strength.


Well it hasn't happend on any other cycle but i'll take your word for it


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## Sk1nny (Jun 5, 2010)

Do I look like I am holding a lot of water? Your obviously a unusual bloke if you keep your strength gains when not on the geer but lucky for you eh.


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## don1 (Jul 9, 2009)

ALR said:


> If you've got "watery muscle" you prob need to run an AI on cycle.
> 
> You already said in this thread you've seen some strength loss in coming off, I'm in PCT right now and have not lost any.


my last pct the last 14 days my strength said bye bye see you next time LOL


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## Sk1nny (Jun 5, 2010)

Another good day. I'm tired from last night but that's nothing to do with test. More to do with valentines last night  so another good session with my favourite girl ( my only girl lol ) no sign of any low test symptoms. I'm eating just as well as when on cycle. Haven't dropped any more weight. Off to the gym for a chest session in a while. My acne isn't getting better or worse atm, hopefully the anti biotics will kick in soon. I'm missing being on the geer but I'm not missing the pip from that onerip ha


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

I am going to drop a graph off here.


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## Sk1nny (Jun 5, 2010)

I like the graph hacksii. It seems the potency of clomid is prettyimpressive as is the power of posivity.


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## Guest (Feb 15, 2011)

yeah interesting that a placebo helped them raise their test levels! ha

any graphs for how good nolva is? currently pcting with HCG and nolva, thought I had clomid but none


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

17 men 42 to 71 years of age with ED, was the study.

I like the fact that the clomid did a pretty good job for being older dudes.


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## Sk1nny (Jun 5, 2010)

No doubting clomid is seriously potent stuff then. I may just use some for fertility treatment lol. Still no pct still feel great. Been hornier than when I was on cycle tbh which is weird. I'm also really buzzing in the gym like I'm on dbol or something. My lifts are slowly getting better and I'm looking quite pumped ( for me anyway  )


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## Andy Dee (Jun 1, 2008)

Sk1nny said:


> No doubting clomid is seriously potent stuff then. I may just use some for fertility treatment lol. Still no pct still feel great. Been hornier than when I was on cycle tbh which is weird. I'm also really buzzing in the gym like I'm on dbol or something. My lifts are slowly getting better and I'm looking quite pumped ( for me anyway  )


Did you run HCG through this cycle?


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## Sk1nny (Jun 5, 2010)

@ andy... No I have never used hcg or clomid but did use a little nolva after some weird burning nipples I got early on. Little bit of nolva soon got rid of that. No moobs for me


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## Andy Dee (Jun 1, 2008)

Sk1nny said:


> @ andy... No I have never used hcg or clomid but did use a little nolva after some weird burning nipples I got early on. Little bit of nolva soon got rid of that. No moobs for me


No worries mate, how long have you been off now and how are you feeling?


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## luke80 (Aug 6, 2010)

I first took steroids 8 years ago and had no internet access for info. I found a source who recomended some dianabol and nothing else. Since then I've never used any pct and never had problems. I have 1 or sometimes 2 courses a year and never go mad on the doses.

This probably doesn't suit everyone but I keep 90% of my gains and have never turned into a girl. Now excuse me while I do some crosstich and watch dirty dancing.


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## Sk1nny (Jun 5, 2010)

Lmao, you may have to send me some of your patterns luke as I'm feeling a bit strange. Eg... I got in a right huff the other night cos I'd shaved my beard into a goatee and the woman hadn't noticed. When I realised what I was in a mood about I thought **** me I'm turning into a moaning old hag lol. Apart from that though I am on top form. Loads of energy in the gym even after 11 hour shift at work, sex drive is great but I'm itching to get growing again  only thing is these spots aren't going in a hurry!


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## Andy Dee (Jun 1, 2008)

Sk1nny said:


> Lmao, you may have to send me some of your patterns luke as I'm feeling a bit strange. Eg... I got in a right huff the other night cos I'd shaved my beard into a goatee and the woman hadn't noticed. When I realised what I was in a mood about I thought **** me I'm turning into a moaning old hag lol. Apart from that though I am on top form. Loads of energy in the gym even after 11 hour shift at work, sex drive is great but I'm itching to get growing again  *only thing is these spots aren't going in a hurry*!


They wont go unless treated ime.


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## Sk1nny (Jun 5, 2010)

I'm on anti biotics mate


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Sk1nny said:


> I'm on anti biotics mate


Any thing else?

Have you been under alot of stress?


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## Sk1nny (Jun 5, 2010)

Hi hacksii, no nothing else and not under any more stress than usual  . I have just got some more benzyl peroxide cream and wash as that helped before. Also I am waiting on some vitamin b5 from myprotein, at 1g ed it definitely has an effect.


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## Marshan (Aug 27, 2010)

Jeez...why couldnt I have founnd this site after my 1st cycle..?!?!?! Sust and deca 2 yrs ago....went through all the feelings and symptoms Hackskiis brother did...to which I say thank you Hackskii for your excellent on the nail advice...and like most of the guys who have consulted you I live in terror of going through that again...pretty sure it'll be blast and cruise for me in future too...just wondering what's a good cycle or system to use for cruising.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

I would for sure use testosterone to cruise with.

Idea is to use about the same as you produce or between 100mg and 250mg a week.

But in all fairness 250mg a week isnt really a cruise, it is a small cycle.

You could do testosterone alone, run HCG throughout, then clomid and nolva for PCT while you ran an AI during.

I bet money recovery would be quiet easy and effective.

Something like 400 to 500mg a week of test E and an AI like adex at .5mg 3 times a week, then 3 weeks from last jab start your clomid and nolva.

You can use HCG mid way through the first week at 500iu and do that twice a week right to the start of your PCT week three.

All the while running the HCG and the AI.

Start day of the PCT you can drop the AI and just use the SERMS.


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## Sk1nny (Jun 5, 2010)

Sorry to hear about your bad experience d1. Seems you carried on cycling 

Out of interest does anyone know what kind of effect on sperm count would the above blast cruise have?


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## Marshan (Aug 27, 2010)

Thanks for the interest sk1nny, ya, I kept on lifting and cycling because I like everything about working out and like any interest or hobby in life,there's unpleasant aspects too.

Re; sperm count.. yes and no sk1nny...I couldnt give you a count but I did get my girlfriend pregnant at the end of my last cycle in october, 12 weeks of deca and sust 3Xweek..fortunately I dont suffer too bad with shrinkage but my moods after coming off are desperate. Im 36, Ive a lad 18...and this baby was planned and will be the last for a couple of reasons. Hence I dont fancy putting myself through what I would term 'hell' again. Of course at the time I didnt know enough and trusted one of my 'knowledgeable' friends who promised many times..."Ya,that PCT will be here next week". He also reckons when you're 'on' yer hardly producing enough sperm to knock a doll up. From that,I tend to take lightly some of the claims users make e.g. weights they're lifting etc. Still...thanks to yerself and again to Hackskii for concern and advice..thats one great thing about the comunity in general..the cameraderie,interest and pull together everyone has for one another. :thumbup1:


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## Sk1nny (Jun 5, 2010)

Ok now I am ready to admit you were right hacksii. My natty test hasn't just bounced back as I thought it would. Libido is lowish And gains are going down the pan  I was 14 stone and am now 12/4. I'm training well and eating well but the weight is dropping a few pound ew

So I'm back on  gonna do a 12 week test e 750mg ew with 3ml Pc onerip ew first 6 weeks ( jabbing 1ml schering tesovoron 250 and 1ml pc one rip mon wed fri) and var arimidex and hcg the last 6 weeks then do the clomid and nolva as I should. Then I will stay off for a while and get some blood tests done me thinks


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## moby1991 (Mar 1, 2011)

personally i will be doing a pct after my first cycle but its really up to each individual just give the knowledge if they wanna do it they'll do it


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## Andy Dee (Jun 1, 2008)

Half of the battle would have been over long ago if you had ran HCG.

Ime this is the biggest mistake, but you live and learn mate one of those things.


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## Sk1nny (Jun 5, 2010)

Yer I agree andy it's a lesson learned


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## Ts23 (Jan 14, 2011)

pct ? what is 1 of them


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## liamo69 (Aug 15, 2011)

ask any top pro or top national...pct is just junk to them.....BUT yep BUT they stay on or cruise all year.pct is persional choice they never had it years ago and they had the best bodybuilders.........its personal choice.............to me id use it if you want but remmber pct like legit clomid can cause worse side effects then the gear


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

liamo69 said:


> ask any top pro or top national...pct is just junk to them.....BUT yep BUT they stay on or cruise all year.pct is persional choice they never had it years ago and they had the best bodybuilders.........its personal choice.............to me id use it if you want but remmber pct like legit clomid can cause worse side effects then the gear


In red.

First, I dont know of any pro's that visit this board, and they have to stay on to keep being a pro, that is what they make their money on.

Ask any man that wants to get his woman pregnant if it is junk.

Ask any man that has had life threatening problems associated with steroid abuse if it is junk.

Clomid, and or any PCT is not worse than the gear, id suggest Stage II stroke range far outweighs anything that PCT (which is temporary) sides would do.

Nolva actually improves lipid profiles, steroids destroy them (especially orals).

Lets not over dramatize the whole thing, manipulating hormones comes with a cost.


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## m118 (Feb 4, 2011)

liamo69 said:


> ask any top pro or top national...pct is just junk to them.....BUT yep BUT they stay on or cruise all year.pct is persional choice they *never had it years ago and they had the best bodybuilders*.........its personal choice.............to me id use it if you want but remmber pct like legit *clomid can cause worse side effects then the gear*


so because they didnt have it years ago... no need to use it now? i assume you apply the same rational to antibiotics, mobile phones, etc.. because people didnt have those years ago but still managed to get by and do well

as for the worse side effects, that's just a silly statement based on nothing except delusion. Hackskii has corrected your mistake very well


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## TheMeatWagon (Dec 3, 2012)

Sk1nny said:


> Ok guys who does n who doesn't do it?
> 
> Why do it?
> 
> Why not?


Kidding right? Of course YES.


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## Mars (Aug 25, 2007)

My tuppence worth.

I'm not going into my years of cycling and cruising but as many know i stopped taking everything 17wks ago due to heart attack.

Iv'e never done PCT, i have always taken HCG and an AI.

First 12wks off, mood libido fine, weeks 14,15,16 low libido, but still 2-3 x weekly.

Rang GP this morning.

9 am cortisol, normal

estrogen, normal

PSA, normal

LH and FSH, normal

Testosterone, low, normal.

and i'm 52 and been on for god knows how many years.


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## Paz1982 (Dec 16, 2012)

Mars said:


> My tuppence worth.
> 
> I'm not going into my years of cycling and cruising but as many know i stopped taking everything 17wks ago due to heart attack.
> 
> ...


pretty good going for any 52 year old standards, gear or no gear


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## umadbrah (Jul 20, 2011)

Mars said:


> My tuppence worth.
> 
> I'm not going into my years of cycling and cruising but as many know i stopped taking everything 17wks ago due to heart attack.
> 
> ...


wow, real world appliance and not recycled forum info


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## Hotdog147 (Oct 15, 2011)

Mars said:


> My tuppence worth.
> 
> I'm not going into my years of cycling and cruising but as many know i stopped taking everything 17wks ago due to heart attack.
> 
> ...


So, how long before you're back on! 

I've just had my bloods back today too, everything spot on, cholesterol is perfect now, everything in range apart from ALT which was only slightly above, my PSA was 0.8, this was a concern of mine as my dad was diagnosed with prostate cancer last week.

9 months I've been off, was on for a year and hormone wise I was fully recovered 11 weeks post cycle, just had the these tests done recently to see if all is well so I can go back on!! Testosterone was 13.1, always been around this level anyway, and the bloods were drawn in the afternoon so may have been higher if I had then done AM

Some BSI extreme ripp staring at me waiting to be pinned, 1ml EOD wit some tbol will do for a nice little 6 weeker

Let the fun begin again!


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## benki11 (Sep 17, 2010)

Hotdog147 said:


> So, how long before you're back on!
> 
> I've just had my bloods back today too, everything spot on, cholesterol is perfect now, everything in range apart from ALT which was only slightly above, my PSA was 0.8, this was a concern of mine as my dad was diagnosed with prostate cancer last week.
> 
> ...


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## benki11 (Sep 17, 2010)

Hotdog147 said:


> So, how long before you're back on!
> 
> I've just had my bloods back today too, everything spot on, cholesterol is perfect now, everything in range apart from ALT which was only slightly above, my PSA was 0.8, this was a concern of mine as my dad was diagnosed with prostate cancer last week.
> 
> ...


You ve used hcg & pct ?


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## Mingster (Mar 25, 2011)

Paz1982 said:


> pretty good going for any 52 year old standards, gear or no gear


Don't underestimate the prowess of 52 year olds. I'm a goddam sexual tyrannosaurus


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## JonnyBoy81 (Jun 26, 2013)

Hotdog147 said:


> So, how long before you're back on!
> 
> I've just had my bloods back today too, everything spot on, cholesterol is perfect now, everything in range apart from ALT which was only slightly above, my PSA was 0.8, this was a concern of mine as my dad was diagnosed with prostate cancer last week.
> 
> ...


Do you get your bloods done via your GP? are they happy to do it? what is the best option for getting this done, either charged or for free?

cheers mate


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## Hotdog147 (Oct 15, 2011)

JonnyBoy81 said:


> Do you get your bloods done via your GP? are they happy to do it? what is the best option for getting this done, either charged or for free?
> 
> cheers mate


Yes my GP mate, he knows all about my AAS use, most people don't like to tell them but I do, it's our health after all!

Some needle exchanges offer these for free, and they're confidential too, other than that there is the private route which is very expensive


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## JonnyBoy81 (Jun 26, 2013)

Hotdog147 said:


> Yes my GP mate, he knows all about my AAS use, most people don't like to tell them but I do, it's our health after all!
> 
> Some needle exchanges offer these for free, and they're confidential too, other than that there is the private route which is very expensive


Cheers for the info buddy. Doc it is


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

Damn Mars, you sure are an old fart..lol

You guys are lucky, it took me almost a year to get back to normal and that was 10 years ago and I was 43 at the time.

I did two PCT's for some help.

I do remember three week after my last shot (13 week deca only cycle) and took a shot of HCG and felt 100% better.

I had tes levels of a female, I was suicidal, panic attacks, anxiety attacks and couldn't get wood, but damn I looked good..lol

I was 5'7" at 190 lbs with abs, looked great on the outside, a mess on the inside. I would take my fat feeling good self over that Adonis self 10 years ago.

I feel if the hormones are off, it can effect well being. I say that because I had never ever had an anxious moment or a panic moment in all my life and haven't had it since.


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## TheMeatWagon (Dec 3, 2012)

Mars said:


> My tuppence worth.
> 
> I'm not going into my years of cycling and cruising but as many know i stopped taking everything 17wks ago due to heart attack.
> 
> ...


How about sperm count? IMHO it doesn't matter if you want to have kids or not, the point is to be at the end of the cycle in the same functional condition you were before plus the added muscle.


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## Mars (Aug 25, 2007)

TheMeatWagon said:


> How about sperm count? IMHO it doesn't matter if you want to have kids or not, the point is to be at the end of the cycle in the same functional condition you were before plus the added muscle.


I dont care about sperm count, i'm 52 and my GF has had a hysterectomy and as for muscle did you miss the bit about having a heart attack? so yeah i'm still holding all my muscle and working out like crazy  .


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## TheMeatWagon (Dec 3, 2012)

Mars said:


> I dont care about sperm count, i'm 52 and my GF has had a hysterectomy and as for muscle did you miss the bit about having a heart attack? so yeah i'm still holding all my muscle and working out like crazy  .


I did not miss the bit about the heart attack and I'm genuinely happy you're ok, but you probably missed the part where I say my opinion on the fact that the body functions *should be* fully restored after a cycle, whether you care about those functions or not. It is only my opinion, but we should endorse responsibility on this forum, and avoid that people hurt themselves.

Not everyone who says "I don't care about sperm count" will stick to that for all his life, and then guess who gets the blame when they want to have kids and they can't?

A good cycle is in my opinion a cycle that starts in a healthy organism, that builds muscle in a healthy organism and ends in a healthy organism, hence I always advocate the use of HCG throughout and PCT afterwards.

I'm all up for blast and cruise, as long as people know what they are doing and most importantly, they dont damage themselves.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

winger said:


> Damn Mars, you sure are an old fart..lol
> 
> You guys are lucky, it took me almost a year to get back to normal and that was 10 years ago and I was 43 at the time.
> 
> ...


Love that avatar, have not seen it in a while.

I would love to have sex, just being married is stopping me:lol:


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## Guest (Aug 24, 2013)

its simple you take a chance or do a PCT , some recover fine and others dont, some recover in 3 months and others take over a year.

thats the gamble  - and its no good judging some ones else's recovery against your own.

it would have been good to have seen (and more informative) -to have the poll answered only by ppl who did not/do not PCT and the poll to have a range of months it took to recover with the last one being ' i did not recover and had to start a PCT protocol' , at least then you would have a median to look at and not 'yes/no'.

*the main thing with mars is he ran HCG thruout- which makes a big differnce (he knows this as well as hackskii and many other of us here who push HCG usage on cycle)


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## Arc (Jan 17, 2013)

pugster said:


> its simple you take a chance or do a PCT , some recover fine and others dont, some recover in 3 months and others take over a year.
> 
> thats the gamble  - and its no good judging some ones else's recovery against your own.
> 
> ...


this one :thumbup1: and Ai


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