# In what order do we loose fat?



## webby (Nov 1, 2007)

Ive read on some peoples journals about legs coming in last but is there a general order in which the body looses fat? I carry most of my bodyfat around my mid section and very little on my arms.


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## trickymicky69 (Oct 1, 2004)

I would say its down to genetics but if I had to make an informed guess it would come off the face first, then the arms, legs, chest followed by the abdominal/oblique area.

Only from my experience though


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## YetiMan1436114545 (Dec 7, 2007)

Every one is different. Legs were my first thing to go along with bitch tits, then face and belly... Arms and back seemed last for me.


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## Flabby_Abbie (Mar 1, 2008)

trickymicky69 said:


> I would say its down to genetics but if I had to make an informed guess it would come off the face first, then the arms, legs, chest followed by the abdominal/oblique area.
> 
> Only from my experience though


That's been my experience, too. I started on the Cambridge Diet at the beginning of last month (now maintaining at 8st 9) and I only had to lose half-a-stone to notice that my triple chin was now a single. I'm left with an 'apron' of loose skin round my abs, but I've been using Bio-Oil to tighten it, and it seems to be working.

Gone from 38-32-42 to 30-24-34 in six weeks (or a size 14-16 to a 6-8, depending on where I shop). Sorry, but I just love seeing the figures in black and white (not that I'm narcissistic or anything...  )

I bought my first cami from Jane Norman the other day in a 'standard' 6 (JN stuff is sized a size smaller than everywhere else, so their 8s are 6s, 10s are 8s, etc.) Size 6 is a 30" bust, which is what this top measures as.

Sarah

Sarah


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## Macro (Jun 9, 2008)

adiposity is related to both genes and hormones as well as environmental factors. Estrogen and Insulin play primary roles in reducing availability of stored fats (estrogen via upregulation of Alpha2 adrenoceptor- see article below and insulin via direct inhibition of lipolysis as well as adipogenesis-- thus the importance of maintaing good insulin sensitivity and blood glucose levels)

http://www.afboard.com/forum/anafit-ezines/136-anafit-ezine-vol-3-estrogen.html


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## Tatyana (Jan 29, 2006)

Macro said:


> adiposity is related to both genes and hormones as well as environmental factors. Estrogen and Insulin play primary roles in reducing availability of stored fats (estrogen via upregulation of Alpha2 adrenoceptor- see article below and insulin via direct inhibition of lipolysis as well as adipogenesis-- thus the importance of maintaing good insulin sensitivity and blood glucose levels)
> 
> http://www.afboard.com/forum/anafit-ezines/136-anafit-ezine-vol-3-estrogen.html


More 'oestrogen is bad' internet rumour bull****e with no references.

It also doesn't consider leptin, ghrelin, peptide (sorry can't remember full name right now), dopamine reward system.

Sorry, not so simple, it is a case of someone taking one wee bit of physiology out of context.

The concept of eliminating oestrogen to increase fat loss is one of those bodybuilding myths, far too simplistic and simply outdated.

*Gao Q, Horvath T. Crosstalk between estrogen and leptin signaling in the hypothalamus. Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab. 2008 Mar 11 [Epub ahead of print]*

Comparative Medicine, Yale University, New haven, Connecticut, United States.

Obesity, characterized by enhanced food intake (hyperphagia) and reduced energy expenditure that results in the accumulation of body fat, is a major risk factor for various diseases including diabetes, cardiovascular disease and cancer.

In the United States, more than half of adults are overweight and this number continues to increase (Flegal et al., 2002). The adipocyte secreted hormone, leptin, and its downstream signaling mediators play crucial roles in the regulation of energy balance.

Leptin decreases feeding while increasing energy expenditure and permitting energy-intensive neuroendocrine processes (such as reproduction). Thus, leptin also modulates the neuroendocrine reproductive axis.

The gonadal steroid hormone, estrogen, plays a central role in the regulation of reproduction and also contributes to the regulation of energy balance. *Estrogen deficiency promotes feeding and weight gain, and estrogen facilitates and to some extent mimics some actions of leptin. *

In this review, we examine the function of estrogen and leptin in the brain, with a focus on mechanisms by which leptin and estrogen cooperate in the regulation of energy homeostasis. Key words: estradiol, leptin, crosstalk.


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## Guest (Jun 15, 2008)

Every one is different generally women lose fat last on their legs but for me this is also the case legs and arms are the final place fat leaves while abbs are ripped long before they even start too look lean.


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## jodes (Nov 24, 2007)

Girls point of view -For me, shoulders, arms, chest first, followed by abs, legs last.


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## Macro (Jun 9, 2008)

Tatyana said:


> More 'oestrogen is bad' internet rumour bull****e with no references.
> 
> It also doesn't consider leptin, ghrelin, peptide (sorry can't remember full name right now), dopamine reward system.
> 
> ...


you obviously dont understand this study or you would not have posted it. And certainly not highlighted that portion of the text. leptin insensitivity is linked to obesity, not low levels of leptin. Leptin levels in obese persons are actually generally very high. As are estrogen levels (due to aromatase). And to be clear there is a huge difference between hypoestrogenemic state (which is what that study refers to) and the hyperestrogenic being discussed in the article.

as to your criticism, the article does not say that estrogen is the cause of all adipose issues. What is says is that higher estrogen levels are linked to alpha2 proliferation (as well as female fat pattern and inhibition of lipolysis) and that aromatase increases due to fat gain increase levels of estrogen (primarily in men, but peripheral and local impacts of estrogen synthesis in women are also significant, highly linked to secondary conversion due to reduction of SHBG).

and because macro is nice and decidedly forgiving of your rudeness...

J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2004 Apr;89(4):1869-78. Links

*Estrogen controls lipolysis by up-regulating alpha2A-adrenergic receptors directly in human adipose tissue through the estrogen receptor alpha. Implications for the female fat distribution.*

*Pedersen SB*, *Kristensen K*, *Hermann PA*, *Katzenellenbogen JA*, *Richelsen B*.

Department of Endocrinology and Metabolism, Aarhus Amtssygehus, Aarhus University Hospital, Denmark. [email protected]

Estrogen seems to promote and maintain the typical female type of fat distribution that is characterized by accumulation of adipose tissue, especially in the sc fat depot, with only modest accumulation of adipose tissue intraabdominally. However, it is completely unknown how estrogen controls the fat accumulation. We studied the effects of estradiol in vivo and in vitro on human adipose tissue metabolism and found that estradiol directly increases the number of antilipolytic alpha2A-adrenergic receptors in sc adipocytes. The increased number of alpha2A-adrenergic receptors caused an attenuated lipolytic response of epinephrine in sc adipocytes; in contrast, no effect of estrogen on alpha2A-adrenergic receptor mRNA expression was observed in adipocytes from the intraabdominal fat depot. These findings show that estrogen lowers the lipolytic response in sc fat depot by increasing the number of antilipolytic alpha2A-adrenergic receptors, whereas estrogen seems not to affect lipolysis in adipocytes from the intraabdominal fat depot. Using estrogen receptor subtype-specific ligands, we found that this effect of estrogen was caused through the estrogen receptor subtype alpha. These findings demonstrate that estrogen attenuates the lipolytic response through up-regulation of the number of antilipolytic alpha2A-adrenergic receptors only in sc and not in visceral fat depots. Thus, our findings offer an explanation how estrogen maintains the typical female sc fat distribution because estrogen seems to inhibit lipolysis only in sc depots and thereby shifts the assimilation of fat from intraabdominal depots to sc depots.

*1: *J Lipid Res. 1999 Sep;40(9):1559-71. Links

*Regional and gender variations in adipose tissue lipolysis in response to weight loss.*

*Mauriège P*, *Imbeault P*, *Langin D*, *Lacaille M*, *Alméras N*, *Tremblay A*, *Després JP*.

Lipid Research Center, Laval University, Ste-Foy, Québec, Canada G1K 7P4.

Catecholamine-induced lipolysis was investigated in 32 obese subjects (14 men and 18 premenopausal women), aged 36-50 years, whose body mass index ranged from 30 to 42 kg/m(2). Isolated subcutaneous (subc) abdominal and femoral adipocytes were studied before and after a 15-week weight reducing program, during which mean body weight loss averaged 9 vs. 10 kg in women and men, respectively (P < 0.0001). Participants were re-examined when they were weight-stable. Fat cell weight decreased by about 15;-20% in both depots (P values ranging from 0.01 to 0.05). Epinephrine (mixed alpha2-/beta-adrenoceptor (AR) agonist) induced antilipolysis at low concentrations and a net lipolytic response at higher doses, irrespective of subjects' fatness and anatomic location of fat. Basal lipolysis, maximal lipolytic responses to isoprenaline (beta-AR agonist), dobutamine and procaterol (beta1- and beta2-AR agonists, respectively) as well as maximal antilipolytic effects of epinephrine or UK-14304 (alpha2-AR agonist) were similar before and after weight reduction. However, both beta- and beta2-AR lipolytic sensitivities and the beta-AR density were increased in both genders after weight reduction, this effect being more marked in subc abdominal than in femoral adipocytes (P values ranging from 0.001 to 0.05). The alpha2-AR antilipolytic sensitivity was reduced in adipose cells from both regions in women, but only in subc abdominal adipocytes in men (P < 0.05), although the alpha2-AR density remained unchanged after weight reduction. In conclusion, a moderate weight loss leads to a higher adipose cell lipolytic efficiency which is associated with changes at receptor levels (mainly an increased beta2- and a decreased alpha2-AR sensitivities), in both genders.

*1: *Int J Obes Relat Metab Disord. 1997 Apr;21(4):314-20. Links

*Lipolytic catecholamine resistance linked to alpha 2-adrenoceptor sensitivity--a metabolic predictor of weight loss in obese subjects.*

*Hellström L*, *Rössner S*, *Hagström-Toft E*, *Reynisdottir S*.

Department of Medicine, Karolinska Institute, Huddinge University Hospital, Sweden.

OBJECTIVE: The weight loss achieved during treatment with very-low-calorie diets (VLCD) varies between individuals. The aim of this study was to investigate whether interindividual variations in catecholamine-induced lipolysis are of importance for the rate of weight loss during VLCD. DESIGN: Prospective study. SUBJECTS: Twenty-eight obese, but otherwise healthy and drug-free women aged 20-57 y with BMI 33.3-47.5 kg/m2 were investigated before entering a four week weight reduction program with a calorie-restricted diet. MEASUREMENTS: A subcutaneous adipose tissue biopsy was obtained from the abdominal area. Isolated fat cells were prepared and incubated in vitro with agents acting on lipolysis at defined steps in the lipolytic cascade. Glycerol release was measured and used as a lipolytic index. Following the biopsy, the subjects underwent a four week VLCD treatment. RESULTS: The decrease in body weight in the whole group ranged between 4.8 and 13.5 kg. Dietary compliance was ascertained by daily measurements of urine-ketones and regular interviews and was satisfactory in all subjects throughout the study. Based on percent body weight reduction, the material was divided into two equally sized groups, classified as rapid or slow weight losers. The rapid weight losers were 10-fold more sensitive to the lipolytic effect of noradrenaline (P = 0.04) and 10-fold less sensitive (P = 0.002) to the antilipolytic effect induced by the alpha 2-adrenoceptor agonist clonidine than the slow weight losers. In the whole material, weight loss was significantly correlated (adjusted r2 = 0.25) with alpha 2-adrenoceptor sensitivity. CONCLUSION: Rapid weight loss during VLCD is associated with increased adipocyte lipolytic sensitivity to catecholamines due to decreased alpha 2-adrenoceptor sensitivity, which in turn may promote lipid mobilization. It appears that variations in alpha 2-adrenoceptor sensitivity in adipocytes may be predictive of weight loss during VLCD.

*1: *Clin Endocrinol (Oxf). 2007 Mar;66(3):440-6. Links

*Intra-adipose sex steroid metabolism and body fat distribution in idiopathic human obesity.*

*Wake DJ*, *Strand M*, *Rask E*, *Westerbacka J*, *Livingstone DE*, *Soderberg S*, *Andrew R*, *Yki-Jarvinen H*, *Olsson T*, *Walker BR*.

Endocrinology Unit, Centre for Cardiovascular Science, Queen's Medical Research Institute, University of Edinburgh, Scotland, UK.

OBJECTIVE: Causes of visceral fat accumulation include glucocorticoid excess or decreased oestrogen/androgen ratio either in plasma or within adipose tissue. In obese subjects, the intra-adipose cortisol-generating enzyme 11beta-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase type 1 (11beta-HSD1) is increased, but information on sex steroid signalling is sp****. We aimed to test associations between body fat or fat distribution and mRNA transcript levels for androgen and oestrogen receptors and for enzymes metabolizing sex steroids in adipose tissue. DESIGN: A cross-sectional study. PATIENTS: Forty-five healthy men and women with body mass index (BMI) 21-36 kg/m(2). MEASUREMENTS: In subcutaneous adipose biopsies we measured mRNAs for enzymes metabolizing local oestrogens (aromatase) and androgens [5alpha-reductase type 1; AKR1C2 (3alpha-HSD3); AKR1C3 (17beta-HSD5, 3alpha-HSD2)] and for sex steroid receptors [oestrogen receptor (ER)-alpha and androgen receptor (AR)]. We related these to body fat mass and distribution. RESULTS: Generalized obesity (BMI) was associated with increased aromatase mRNA (r = 0.35, P < 0.05). Central obesity (waist : hip ratio) was associated with mRNA for AKR1C2 (r = 0.28, P < 0.05) and AKR1C3 (r = 0.38, P < 0.01) but not aromatase (r = 0.06). 5alpha-Reductase type 1, ER and AR mRNA levels did not predict fat amount or its distribution. CONCLUSION: These data on transcript levels suggest that, in idiopathic obesity, increased intra-adipose oestrogen generation by aromatase predicts peripheral fat distribution, while androgen metabolism by AKR1C isoforms predicts central fat distribution, supporting the hypothesis that intra-adipose sex steroid metabolism is a determinant of gynoid vs. android patterns of body fat.


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## Macro (Jun 9, 2008)

1: Metabolism. 1998 Apr;47(4):467-73. Links

Regional differences in adrenoceptor binding and fat cell lipolysis in obese, postmenopausal women.Berman DM, Nicklas BJ, Rogus EM, Dennis KE, Goldberg AP.

Department of Medicine, University of Maryland School of Medicine; the Geriatric Research, Education and Clinical Center, Baltimore Veterans Affair Medical Center, 21201, USA.

In women there is an increase in visceral obesity, subcutaneous abdominal adipocyte lipolysis, and risk of cardiovascular disease (CVD) associated with weight gain after menopause. The mechanisms underlying this increase in adrenoreceptor (AR)-agonist catecholamine-stimulated lipolysis and abdominal obesity in postmenopausal women were studied in intact adipocytes isolated from the abdominal and gluteal subcutaneous fat depots in 19 obese (48% +/- 1% body fat, mean +/- SE) women with a mean +/- SE age of 58 +/- 1 years. The fat cell size and adipose tissue lipoprotein lipase (ATLPL) activity were similar in both sites. The maximal lipolytic responsiveness and sensitivity to isoproterenol were higher (P < .05) in abdominal compared with gluteal adipocytes, but maximal lipolytic response to a post-AR agent was similar. Abdominal adipocytes had a higher beta-AR ([3H]-CGP-12177) and alpha2-AR ([3H]-yohimbine) affinity than gluteal cells (P < .05), lower alpha2-AR density (P < .05), but similar beta-AR density as gluteal cells. Both abdominal and gluteal cell size correlated with alpha2-AR density (P < .01), but not with beta-AR density. Thus, a higher beta-AR affinity and lower alpha2-AR relative to beta-AR density may explain the higher in vitro catecholamine-mediated lipolysis in abdominal compared with gluteal adipocytes in obese, postmenopausal women.

1: Cell Mol Life Sci. 2003 Sep;60(9):1982-9. Links

Gender- and site-related effects on lipolytic capacity of rat white adipose tissue.Pujol E, Rodríguez-Cuenca S, Frontera M, Justo R, Lladó I, Kraemer FB, Gianotti M, Roca P.

Grup de metabolisme energètic i nutrició, Departament de Biologia Fonamental i Ciències de la Salut, Universitat de les Illes Balears, Cra. Valldemossa km 7.5, 07122 Palma de Mallorca, Spain.

Gender- and site-related differences in the lipolytic capacity, at the different steps of the adrenergic pathway, in gonadal and inguinal white adipose tissue (WAT), were assessed by studying alpha2A-adrenergic receptor (AR), beta3-AR and hormone-sensitive lipase (HSL) protein levels, and by determining the lipolytic response to different agents. Gonadal WAT showed a lower alpha2A/beta3-AR ratio, a greater lipolytic capacity in response to AR agonists, and higher HSL activity and protein levels than inguinal WAT. In female rats, we found greater alpha2A-AR protein levels and alpha2A/beta3-AR ratio compared to their male counterparts, but, on the other hand, a higher lipolytic response to beta-AR agonists and a greater lipolytic capacity at the postreceptor level, including a more activated HSL protein. Thus, the lipolytic capacity was clearly higher in gonadal than in inguinal WAT, at the different steps of the adrenergic pathway studied. Moreover, in both tissues, *females showed a greater inhibition of lipolysis via alpha2-AR*, which was counteracted by the higher lipolytic capacity at the postreceptor level.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

I always suspected excess estrogen to play a part in bellyfat in men.

Excess aromatase effects testosterone production too.


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## Macro (Jun 9, 2008)

hackskii said:


> I always suspected excess estrogen to play a part in bellyfat in men.
> 
> Excess aromatase effects testosterone production too.


with respect to soft belly fat, yes. the intra-abdominal fat is due more to androgenic and insulin influence (gut and belly distention)


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Macro said:


> with respect to soft belly fat, yes. the intra-abdominal fat is due more to androgenic and insulin influence (gut and belly distention)


You are talking visceral fat (intra-abdominal) right?

I have heard DHT drugs increase visceral fat.


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## Macro (Jun 9, 2008)

hackskii said:


> You are talking visceral fat (intra-abdominal) right?
> 
> I have heard DHT drugs increase visceral fat.


yes

and

yes (though all androgens- with calorie excess- tend to have that effect)


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## Macro (Jun 9, 2008)

Greekgoddess said:


> Lost it off my legs first, then a**e, face and neck, arms, stomach in that order.


that is an androgenic fat pattern of fat loss. very uncommon for women (unless they have had hysterectomy or extreme PCOS).

you probably have signifcantly higher than average androgen to estrogen ratio


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## thestudbeast (Jul 20, 2007)

Macro said:


> that is an androgenic fat pattern of fat loss. very uncommon for women (unless they have had hysterectomy or extreme PCOS).
> 
> you probably have signifcantly higher than average androgen to estrogen ratio


Other hormone effect fat storage area's right?

Cortisol: the area bellow the belly button.

Insulin sensitivity: Love handle area

estrogen (in males): chest, tricepts, outer top of legs, generaly soft fatty tissue.

The thiroid hormones also have a tell tale area if they are low but I forget what it is. Top subject and no doubt the future of fat loss supplements. What do you think of reservatrol for use as estrogen control?


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Greekgoddess said:


> On second thought- could it be something in the Lipo 6 I am taking that is having this effect????
> 
> My sex drive has been through the roof since I started taking it three months ago!


My GF is 52 and she is going through menopause and she has zero sex drive.


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## maccer (Jul 11, 2007)

hackskii said:


> My GF is 52 and she is going through menopause and she has zero sex drive.


haha Hacks isn't that a bit irrelevant? 

I thought you were going to give an interesting answer about lipo 6 lol


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## kaz28 (May 4, 2008)

For me - face, arms, calfs, then belly, thighs and butt....(which takes forever!)


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

maccer said:


> haha Hacks isn't that a bit irrelevant?
> 
> I thought you were going to give an interesting answer about lipo 6 lol


Hmmmmmm, never even thought of buying Lipo 6 until her post......lol

List of ingrediants:

Caffeine is the most prevalent ingredient in this supplement, delivering 200 mg per serving. A stimulant and diuretic, it is used in many fat burners to provide a boost in energy.

Synephrine is similar to Epherdra without the cardiovascular side effects. It is used in many weight loss products for its perceived ability to suppress the appetite, increase metabolism and lift energy levels.

Bioperine® may assist in the body's ability to absorb vitamins, minerals and antioxidants, promoting thermogenesis.

Guggulsterones have been shown to stimulate the thyroid, increasing the metabolic rate at which fat is burned.

Yohimbine, from the bark of the African Yohimbe tree, is often used in drugs designed to enhance sexual performance for its ability to increase blood flow to the penis. It is also thought to improve energy and stamina.

Only things I see may boost libido is Guggulsterones, and Yohimbine.

Yohimbe does help me sometimes.


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## dudeson (May 8, 2007)

Face, Arms, quads/hams, chest/back, and very slowly my stomach. It's weird, even when I was younger and had a hint of a six pack, I always had love handles, when I get thin my obliques really jut out but I have still a decent amount of fat towards the rear of them. It's weird that my calves have almost never had any fat on them. They never really shrink or grow depending on my BF%...


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## ymir (Jun 4, 2007)

My order is : Delts, Quads,Arms, Chest, Abs, Hams Glutes and Lower back last


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## JawD (Sep 15, 2004)

Face was first, I dont have much on my legs, a little on my chest and bloody loads on my stomach and its driving me insane


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

Macro said:


> with respect to soft belly fat, yes. the intra-abdominal fat is due more to androgenic and insulin influence (gut and belly distention)


this would be the reason the year i took off steroids i lost 3inches on my waist and since then i have used much less on my cycles of both steroids and insulin and my waist is smaller than before 2005..

excellant info Macro...


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## pauly7582 (Jan 16, 2007)

Macro said:


> you obviously dont understand this study or you would not have posted it. And certainly not highlighted that portion of the text. leptin insensitivity is linked to obesity, not low levels of leptin. Leptin levels in obese persons are actually generally very high. As are estrogen levels (due to aromatase). And to be clear there is a huge difference between hypoestrogenemic state (which is what that study refers to) and the hyperestrogenic being discussed in the article.
> 
> as to your criticism, the article does not say that estrogen is the cause of all adipose issues. What is says is that higher estrogen levels are linked to alpha2 proliferation (as well as female fat pattern and inhibition of lipolysis) and that aromatase increases due to fat gain increase levels of estrogen (primarily in men, but peripheral and local impacts of estrogen synthesis in women are also significant, highly linked to secondary conversion due to reduction of SHBG).
> 
> ...


 :thumb: A man after my own heart. What is your background Macro?


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## Dmaster (Sep 6, 2005)

So, in other words, is it a good or bad idea to take Yohombine and Aromatase inhibitor. From the descriptions of products I've seen, the later can stunt Estrogen quite well, which helps more testosterone be made in the body. But for a fairly large guy looking to lose weight, would more availability to all fat help burn it all better. I've seen various comments that in general its easier to see the effect from using the products when you are much lower bf%, but it still works just as well at higher bf%, just not so obvious. As take off a bit of extra fat in that case, to reveal more fat 

I'm wondering if they would help as I'm going for a ketogenic diet, and due to things like bitch tits and having a high bf% I would assume I have most estrogen than I want, which will be effectively helping to lock in some of the fat, aswell as making growing muscle a little harder.

With a Ephedra and caffeine stack I hear yohombine is a good thing to add, though unfortunately in the UK we can only get the oral use Yohombine but I guess that would have to do.

http://astronutrition.com/testosterone-support-15/6oxo-natural-aromatase-inhibitor-285/

http://astronutrition.com/testosterone-support-15/novedex-xt-antiaromatese-testosterone-booster-708/

These are the only two Aromatase inhibitors I've found available in the UK(so far), would either be useful, relatively safe to use at all. The second link claims to be the second coming in these products but realistically, I haven't a clue if its better or not. Its explaination, and a quick read on the drugs it uses, seems to suggest it might be better, but then it could all be BS, anyone used either?

I guess to a point, I wouldn't mind losing the "bad" area's of fat first, bitch tits, fat under belly button, as frankly these are the most obvious, most depressing and being I'm in for a long haul, could provide a much needed motivational boost losing these sooner rather than later.

I saw people mention T3/4/5 in the thread, are they dangerous to use at all, the blurb on them both seem to permanent boost to metabolism, I would assume permanent to mean throughout the day as you still take it, rather than long term, as long term messing with hormones would seem a dangerous prospect. Bad idea to be taking anything along the lines of a ECA stack alongside the T3/4/5?

Cheers for any advice.


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## Beklet (May 13, 2005)

Mine generally comes off all over, but I seem to notice changes in my belly first.

And no matter how slim I get, the handles stay.... :cursing:


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Beklet said:


> Mine generally comes off all over, but I seem to notice changes in my belly first.
> 
> And no matter how slim I get, the handles stay.... :cursing:


Maybe those handles are there for a reason? :innocent: :whistling:


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

Be interesting to see the effects of a low dose of L-dopa on your misses Scott


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

cwoody123 said:


> Be interesting to see the effects of a low dose of L-dopa on your misses Scott


I am all ears mate.

Not sure what you mean but if it helps her with wanting to do something then I am all ears.

This is quite rediculous actually and very frusterating.

I am far too young to never have sex again in my life, and she is too nice to cheat on.

Kind of funny you brought it up, I actually am upset today about this situation and was thinking in my mind of a way around this all.

Maybe it is the heat, It was 97 degrees here yesterday and I was miserable, today is going to be the same.

I was talking to a friend about this, he asked me if I think she is cheating on me, I said I didnt think so.

Some times it does my head in thinking maybe I am not attractive to her anymore, maybe it is me and not her.

She is going through menopause so I dont mind waiting, but is has been months already since the last time.

I dont have privacy really so the other option is a bit compromised.

I really dont get much affection either and if it was food, I would have starved long ago.

I better stop writing or I am going to be upset......


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## Beklet (May 13, 2005)

hackskii said:


> Maybe those handles are there for a reason? :innocent: :whistling:


 

They're really not getting any use at the moment though....... :thumbdown:

As for your Mrs - apparently Gingko Biloba is good, and I'm forever seeing adverts for Ymea on the telly - both are supposed to boost oestrogen levels.

Apparently the sex drive can return when the main symptoms have gone and the hormones have settled.

Having read your posts, I'm bloody dreading it!!!!!


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Beklet said:


> They're really not getting any use at the moment though....... :thumbdown:
> 
> As for your Mrs - apparently Gingko Biloba is good, and I'm forever seeing adverts for Ymea on the telly - both are supposed to boost oestrogen levels.
> 
> ...


Some women will not suffer from loss of libido.

My buddy said his wife had some problems with libido but once the menopause was over he said her sex drive came back with a vengance.

Thanks Bek for the info, I will pass it on right now.


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

hackskii said:


> I am all ears mate.
> 
> Not sure what you mean but if it helps her with wanting to do something then I am all ears.
> 
> ...


Bless! i know how you feel mate, my misses went through a stage where she could not keep up with me. It does make you start to question there commitment to the relationship and also whether it is actually you with the problem.

The reason Lipo6 works on the libido is the interaction Yohimbine has with the dopaminergic system.

L-Dopa is a prescription drug which in high doses can cause physiological problems. So i would steer clear of this unless you really know what your doing!

Luckily there a a few natural remedies which contain high amounts of L-Dopa...One of these is called "Mucuna pruriens" Also Broad beans (Especially baby one's) contain lots of L-dopa, you could sneak these in to her meals without her knowing a thing lol

I believe dopamine enhancing drugs are the successor to Viagra with the added bonus of libido increase.

Be interesting to see how she gets on with it!


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

I bought a few things from the health food store and Mucuna pruriens was one of them, also one bottle of something that is supposed to be for women only, also some DHEA.

I might even have some yohimbe laying around.

Greekgodess, how long did it take you with the lipo to notice the change in libido?

Viagra does nothing for libido, it is a vasodialator, works on the plumbing.

MTII on the other hand does work on libido at the hypothalamus, she did try it once and it did work on libido, but she also got the other side of nausia, she felt like having sex but she also felt like throwing up.

PT-141 is another one that works on libido, also an injectable works just like MT-II but with no tanning.

I actually got lucky yesterday after I put alot of pressure on her, it has been so long. Sadly she didnt enjoy it and didnt really want me to take the time to satisfy her down there either.


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## Beklet (May 13, 2005)

hackskii said:


> I bought a few things from the health food store and Mucuna pruriens was one of them, also one bottle of something that is supposed to be for women only, also some DHEA.
> 
> I might even have some yohimbe laying around.
> 
> ...


Damn :crying:

Problem is, the less you get, the less you want it too - went through something similar a few years back. My libido is back to normal now, still no idea what caused it, just hope it doesn't happen again!


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

my ex-wife was frigid but i think that was down to her looking like Jabba the Hut in a dress


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Thanks Goddess for that information.

She eats very little as she is so self concious about her weight.

This in itself could be limiting for her loss.

Catabolic hormones from worrying or what ever else....

I think she looks nice myself. She on the otherhand does not...

This might be the problem in itself actually.

She does not feel sexy........Not at all......

I think she is, but she does not......

I, Must not be hot enough....lol.....Just kidding...........

Maybe she needs some Hormones?

Maybe she needs me to make her feel more sexy?

I think she is hot............id like her to feel that.

Ok, sorry to hyjack this thread..............lol

Back on topic, I lose the fat in my face first............................


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## YetiMan1436114545 (Dec 7, 2007)

Pscarb said:


> my ex-wife was frigid but i think that was down to her looking like Jabba the Hut in a dress


That made me laugh out loud lol.

hack... Get a younger girl friend dude! :thumb :with big bush!


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

YetiMan said:


> That made me laugh out loud lol.
> 
> hack... Get a younger girl friend dude! :thumb :with big bush!


lol, That would be alot of fun.

But one thing I know, if you cheat on a woman that loves you, you will bring out the worst in humanity.

*There hath no rath like a woman scorned.* I have seen this first hand with her last time she left me when she thought I cheated on her. I didnt cheat but she thought I did.

Oh man, that was the ugliest thing I ever saw in my life.

Dont get me wrong, the thought has crossed my mind, but acting out on that thought would really be a bad thing if she were to find out. Not only that but she does not deserve this as she is a good woman, I just could not do that to her even though I do think about it.

She would rather watch me be with someone than have me do it outside of the relationship.

I dont think that would be a good idea either.


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

This is exactly what i went through...But my need for sex was much greater...I toyed with the idea of cheating and using prostitutes to satisfy my hunger.

In the end thou i love her so much that i dont think i could ever do it...luckily enough i have calmed down abit and she has got better.

But it is not very nice thing to go through...at the end of the day mate your just fighting against your natural instincts to pro create...Damn that Oxytocin!!!


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## Macro (Jun 9, 2008)

Dmaster said:


> With a Ephedra and caffeine stack I hear yohombine is a good thing to add, though unfortunately in the UK we can only get the oral use Yohombine but I guess that would have to do.
> 
> .


they are are available in the UK

https://www.theafstore.com/eu/product.php?productid=35&cat=0&page=1&featured

https://www.theafstore.com/eu/product.php?productid=34&cat=5&page=1

oral yohimbine is not reccomended with EC (BP and anxiety issues), oral Y is ok with xanthine and synephrine based stacks (if you can tolerate the oral Y which many cannot)


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## Macro (Jun 9, 2008)

Dmaster said:


> These are the only two Aromatase inhibitors I've found available in the UK(so far), would either be useful, relatively safe to use at all. The second link claims to be the second coming in these products but realistically, I haven't a clue if its better or not. Its explaination, and a quick read on the drugs it uses, seems to suggest it might be better, but then it could all be BS, anyone used either?
> 
> .


6oxo and ATD (rebound xt) are effective AI's. HOWEVER, they have terrible half life and poor (but also quite variable) oral bioavailability. Generally reccomend against their use. 6oxo also has some E metabolites, which are a bit of an unknown.

basically they lack effective delivery and active life (transdermal, pellet, or esterfied and injected they would be good). Most steroidal AI's need to be methylated to be effective orally. (as aromasin is, 6-methylated)

Reccomend aromasin (research companies and sources will carry) or AIFM (transdermal ATD, transdermal delivery overcomes both the half life- via dermal lag- and the bioavailability issues with ATD) which the european afstore carries.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Macro said:


> or AIFM (transdermal ATD, transdermal delivery overcomes both the half life- via dermal lag- and the bioavailability issues with ATD) which the european afstore carries.


ATD has DHEA in it, is that legal to import into the UK?

Does this AI work well and what is the half life of it?


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## Macro (Jun 9, 2008)

The european AFSTORE ships from the UK, so there are no import issues.

AIFM is pretty comparable to aromasin (a bit stronger at higher end dosing). delivery rate varies, however generally the bolus is released over 8-12 hours with lesser release for 24-36hrs. most people dose twice a day, though once a day dosing is feasible.


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## Macro (Jun 9, 2008)

as a topical it is not subject to the same regulations as "supplements".


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Macro said:


> as a topical it is not subject to the same regulations as "supplements".


How many mg's of DHEA?

How many mg's of DHEA gets in to your system transdermally?

I mean what is the % of loss through a transdermal preperation?

I know it is high as testim (testosterone gel) is 5g gell that has 50mg of testosterone, approximatly 10% is absorbed in a 24 hour period.

I have always wondered where the other 90% was lost to.......lol

Sorry, but that is one question I always wanted to know.

So, do you rate that transdermal AI?


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## Macro (Jun 9, 2008)

hackskii said:


> How many mg's of DHEA?
> 
> How many mg's of DHEA gets in to your system transdermally?
> 
> ...


5 pumps which is the high end of dosing provides about the equivalent of 50mg orally (so its relatively low, but enough to be supportive when your adrenal DHEA is suppressed)

testim and androgel use one of the oldest delivery platforms, 10% is very poor (its actually 5-15%- skin thickness and dermal integrity causing such variations-- age is the primary cause of loss of thickness and integrity- also its penetration potency limits sites of effective delivery).

AIFM uses a much more advanced (though relatively natural delivery platform-- nature makes damn good penetration enhancers  ), delivery can be up to 50%. because of higher penetration, site of application is not as important to uptake (though it still can have impact).

with respect to what happens to the other percentage with any transdermal, some is heavily metabolised in the dermis (it goes through to slowly), some just gets trapped and is later shed with dead skin, some just remains in the outer layer and is washed away (when you shower)


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

I like that post, I always wondered what happened to the otherstuff that does not get metabolised.


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## Ashcrapper (Jul 3, 2008)

always seems to be my gut last sadly. although I think that may be down to several pints too many at the weekend :thumb:

hello all by the way, im new round here


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Welcome to the board Ash


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## Ashcrapper (Jul 3, 2008)

thanks mate


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## adesign (Jun 10, 2008)

My face, neck and thighs lose it first. My hips and arms last.


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## Macro (Jun 9, 2008)

hackskii said:


> I like that post, I always wondered what happened to the otherstuff that does not get metabolised.


glad to be of assistance


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## Lost Soul (Apr 5, 2008)

Nice info macro, thanks mate



thestudbeast said:


> Other hormone effect fat storage area's right?
> 
> Cortisol: the area bellow the belly button.
> 
> ...


Have you had a read of Charles Poliquins theory/study on this?

He links caffeine to cortisol, cortisol to body fat

food for thought on ECA and other caff based thermogenics people use when dieiting


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## Macro (Jun 9, 2008)

there may be some support for his theory with caffiene ALONE, but see also the increase in T levels (and suppressing cortisol is quite easy  )

Int J Sport Nutr Exerc Metab. 2008 Apr;18(2):131-41.Links

Dose effect of caffeine on testosterone and cortisol responses to resistance exercise.Beaven CM, Hopkins WG, Hansen KT, Wood MR, Cronin JB, Lowe TE.

Horticulture and Food Research Institute of New Zealand, Hamilton, New Zealand.

INTRODUCTION: Interest in the use of caffeine as an ergogenic aid has increased since the International Olympic Committee lifted the partial ban on its use. Caffeine has beneficial effects on various aspects of athletic performance, but its effects on training have been neglected. PURPOSE: To investigate the acute effect of caffeine on the exercise-associated increases in testosterone and cortisol in a double-blind crossover study. METHODS: Twenty-four professional rugby-league players ingested caffeine doses of 0, 200, 400, and 800 mg in random order 1 hr before a resistance-exercise session. Saliva was sampled at the time of caffeine ingestion, at 15-min intervals throughout each session, and 15 and 30 min after the session. Data were log-transformed to estimate percent effects with mixed modeling, and effects were standardized to assess magnitudes. RESULTS: Testosterone concentration showed a small increase of 15% (90% confidence limits, +/- 19%) during exercise. Caffeine raised this concentration in a dose-dependent manner by a further small 21% (+/- 24%) at the highest dose. The 800-mg dose also produced a moderate 52% (+/- 44%) increase in cortisol. The effect of caffeine on the testosterone:cortisol ratio was a small decline (14%; +/- 21%). CONCLUSION: Caffeine has some potential to benefit training outcomes via the anabolic effects of the increase in testosterone concentration, but this benefit might be counteracted by the opposing catabolic effects of the increase in cortisol and resultant decline in the testosterone:cortisol ratio.


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## Lost Soul (Apr 5, 2008)

Nice one macro



> but this benefit might be


I hate when pubmed stuff finishes off with these lines :laugh:

What do you like for cortisol control for natural trainers long term and PCT/after PCT for steroid users?


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## miles2345 (Mar 26, 2008)

everyone is different there isnt a rule


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## thestudbeast (Jul 20, 2007)

Lost Soul said:


> Nice info macro, thanks mate
> 
> Have you had a read of Charles Poliquins theory/study on this?
> 
> ...


cortisol is only an issue with testosterone is low, they use exogenous testosterone so.................


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## Lost Soul (Apr 5, 2008)

and naturals?


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## thestudbeast (Jul 20, 2007)

Lost Soul said:


> and naturals?


should avoid strong adrenal stimulants, caffines double edged as it increases insulin sensitivity if taken every day which will in turn lower cortisol in the long run.

Controling the hormone thats making them fat is a better idea than a stimulant.


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## Lost Soul (Apr 5, 2008)

thestudbeast said:


> should avoid strong adrenal stimulants, caffines double edged as it increases insulin sensitivity if taken every day which will in turn lower cortisol in the long run.
> 
> Controling the hormone thats making them fat is a better idea than a stimulant.


For sure...its just getting that over to those who enjoy grenade, EPH, T5 and so on


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## Macro (Jun 9, 2008)

there is very mixed data on caffeine and insulin sensitivity. Also keep in mind that training, which none of these studies take into account, has a significant impact on the metabolic effects of many compounds. Since using caffeine with and without exercise produces very different effects on plasma levels of things like FFA's, insulin, blood glucose, etc...


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## Kezz (Sep 3, 2007)

I use T5's every day and the fat is flying off me!!


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## Macro (Jun 9, 2008)

that is a very high dose ephedrine stack, there is not much benefit exceeding the 10:1 caffeine to ephedrine ratio. thats just over 3:1. Though should be fine, just perhaps a little taxing on the CNS.


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## thestudbeast (Jul 20, 2007)

Macro said:


> there is very mixed data on caffeine and insulin sensitivity. Also keep in mind that training, which none of these studies take into account, has a significant impact on the metabolic effects of many compounds. Since using caffeine with and without exercise produces very different effects on plasma levels of things like FFA's, insulin, blood glucose, etc...


Yes the short term studies tend to say one thing and long term another, still I get my caffine though green tea. With the info available I'd say either use caffine everyday in moderate amounts or not at all.


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## Macro (Jun 9, 2008)

green tea (egcg in particular) has many benefits with respect to glucose clearance and insulin sensitivity.


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