# 8 weeks to get sub 10%bf. (Sub 9% if possible). I'll do whatever it takes, need advices.



## Tren's physique (Feb 13, 2016)

Currently 14%bf (I'm probably exaggerating, it's just to be sure). 8 weeks to get under 10% (even more if possible).

I don't mind to sacrifice or suffer a bit for it. The aim is to use the LEAST drugs possible (currently on 500mg test, will add mast). Of course if something is needed I'll use it.

Need advices on what to do, diet included (I mean kcals and particular strategies). Remember I don't care to eat in a big deficit if it's needed.

(I know what to do on a normal situation... But this time it's 8 weeks)


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## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

Tren's physique said:


> Currently 14%bf (I'm probably exaggerating, it's just to be sure). 8 weeks to get under 10% (even more if possible).
> 
> I don't mind to sacrifice or suffer a bit for it. The aim is to use the LEAST drugs possible (currently on 500mg test, will add mast). Of course if something is needed I'll use it.
> 
> ...


 Drop cals to 2200 train how you train and add 20 mins of cardio 3x week to start.

Lower carbs a tad and up protein.


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## Fluke82 (Sep 10, 2015)

FelonE said:


> Drop cals to 2200 train how you train and add 20 mins of cardio 3x week to start.
> 
> Lower carbs a tad and up protein.


 This but lower cals. 1900.

you know my opinion on protein recommendations already


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## weaver (Dec 22, 2015)

Certainly achivable, drop cals 500-750 below maintance and keep carbs <100, you'll be hungy all day :whistling: . Do cardio as often as you can. if possible after every workout.


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## zyphy (Jun 23, 2014)

carbs low, fats low, good amount of protein and fasted cardio in the morning.


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## zak007 (Nov 12, 2011)

Go Keto, high fat moderate protein


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## Tren's physique (Feb 13, 2016)

zak007 said:


> Go Keto, high fat moderate protein


 8 weeks keto? FFS.. Not so healthy, is it?


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## Tren's physique (Feb 13, 2016)

zyphy said:


> carbs low, fats low, good amount of protein and fasted cardio in the morning.


 Can't do morning cardio. Is it OK if I do cardio after a 5/6 hours fast?


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## Tren's physique (Feb 13, 2016)

weaver said:


> Certainly achivable, drop cals 500-750 below maintance and keep carbs <100, you'll be hungy all day :whistling: . Do cardio as often as you can. if possible after every workout.


 "Luckily" I have a lot of troubles in life lately, so i'm never hungry lol. I have to force feed


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## zyphy (Jun 23, 2014)

Tren's physique said:


> Can't do morning cardio. Is it OK if I do cardio after a 5/6 hours fast?


 i find doing fasted cardio upon sleeping definitely makes a difference for me but everyones different.


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## Tren's physique (Feb 13, 2016)

zyphy said:


> i find doing fasted cardio upon sleeping definitely makes a difference for me but everyones different.


 Mmmm, i really can't though... I already sleep not very much... Getting up even earlier would probably be counterproductive. (I can't go to sleep earlier)


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## weaver (Dec 22, 2015)

zyphy said:


> i find doing fasted cardio upon sleeping definitely makes a difference for me but everyones different.


 Theoriticaly it does, but if you keep your carbs really, really low, like 2 meals of 30-40g then your inslulin will be low throughout the day, so not much of a difference.


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## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

Drogon said:


> This but lower cals. 1900.
> 
> you know my opinion on protein recommendations already


 Said 2200 to leave him room to drop them further


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## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

Intermittent fasting helps me cut too


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## Tren's physique (Feb 13, 2016)

FelonE said:


> Intermittent fasting helps me cut too


 You reckon? How do you do more or less?


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## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

Tren's physique said:


> You reckon? How do you do more or less?


 I still eat the same amount of calories but I only eat then in an 8 hour window. For example I train in the morning so I train fasted and eat between 12pm and 8pm


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## zyphy (Jun 23, 2014)

weaver said:


> Theoriticaly it does, but if you keep your carbs really, really low, like 2 meals of 30-40g then your inslulin will be low throughout the day, so not much of a difference.


 i notice a big difference, as i said, everyones body is different. you can only know till you try it for yourself


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## RedStar (Aug 8, 2014)

FelonE said:


> Drop cals to 2200 train how you train and add 20 mins of cardio 3x week to start.
> 
> Lower carbs a tad and up protein.


 Surely we need to consider what he weighs as a guy at for example 17 stone can't drop to such low calories immediately?

@Tren's physique what is your weight in stone?


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## AestheticManlet (Jun 12, 2012)

Ttm nice oral kick start, protein at 1.5g/pound cals under maintenance you'll probably gain some lean mass at the same time.


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## Growing Lad (Feb 14, 2009)

Id go with banzais/psmf straight protein diet. Slash the calories, Let the drugs retain muscle. Just lift hard 3 - 4 days a week. Cardio would be detrimental

your 14% is probably higher. And dropping to a true 8/9% will require some suffering

but you said whatever it takes


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## Tren's physique (Feb 13, 2016)

Fattymous Waterman said:


> Surely we need to consider what he weighs as a guy at for example 17 stone can't drop to such low calories immediately?
> 
> @Tren's physique what is your weight in stone?


 Errmmm, 100kg more or less... Can you do the conversion?


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## Tren's physique (Feb 13, 2016)

Ross1991 said:


> Ttm nice oral kick start, protein at 1.5g/pound cals under maintenance you'll probably gain some lean mass at the same time.


 Mate... The least drugs possible lol. I appreciate the input btw. Don't need a kickstart as the test is in my system since some weeks already... Protein so high to keep carbs lower I guess?


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## AestheticManlet (Jun 12, 2012)

Tren's physique said:


> Mate... The least drugs possible lol. I appreciate the input btw. Don't need a kickstart as the test is in my system since some weeks already... Protein so high to keep carbs lower I guess?


 Pretty much. First time I've cut using that high protein and it's going really well so far. Just personal opinion of course.


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## Tren's physique (Feb 13, 2016)

Growing Lad said:


> Id go with banzais/psmf straight protein diet. Slash the calories, Let the drugs retain muscle. Just lift hard 3 - 4 days a week. Cardio would be detrimental
> 
> your 14% is probably higher. And dropping to a true 8/9% will require some suffering
> 
> but you said whatever it takes


 My 14% is probably higher? :huh: I don't want to post photos for a lot of reasons... But you can clearly see the shape of my 2 "upper" abs and a bit the two "middle" abs. You can also see some separation in leg muscles if I flex them (not much though... Just a bit) and some vein on my biceps. Surely it's not 15% mate... Btw cardio I like to do that also for health. Yeah I don't mind suffering mate. You reckon 500mg of test would be enough to retain on a drastic diet?


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## Tren's physique (Feb 13, 2016)

FelonE said:


> I still eat the same amount of calories but I only eat then in an 8 hour window. For example I train in the morning so I train fasted and eat between 12pm and 8pm


 I train around 4pm... What would be the best approach for me in your opinion?


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## RedStar (Aug 8, 2014)

Tren's physique said:


> Errmmm, 100kg more or less... Can you do the conversion?


 Yeah big guy, what's your daily maintenance? Take 500 off that and go from there.


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## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

Fattymous Waterman said:


> Surely we need to consider what he weighs as a guy at for example 17 stone can't drop to such low calories immediately?
> 
> @Tren's physique what is your weight in stone?


 I dropped cals to 1700 cals at 210lbs and got lean the quickest I ever had


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## Tren's physique (Feb 13, 2016)

Fattymous Waterman said:


> Yeah big guy, what's your daily maintenance? Take 500 off that and go from there.


 As you know my maintenance/bulking/cutting kcals are lower than almost every guy of my size. Do you remember we talked about that? Probably I maintain on "just" 3000.


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## Tren's physique (Feb 13, 2016)

FelonE said:


> I dropped cals to 1700 cals at 210lbs and got lean the quickest I ever had


 No muscle loss? No stalls?


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## RedStar (Aug 8, 2014)

FelonE said:


> I dropped cals to 1700 cals at 210lbs and got lean the quickest I ever had


 Really? Well I don't think I could drop that low when I topped out at 230lbs.

I'd rather drop slower myself.


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## Growing Lad (Feb 14, 2009)

Tren's physique said:


> My 14% is probably higher? :huh: I don't want to post photos for a lot of reasons... But you can clearly see the shape of my 2 "upper" abs and a bit the two "middle" abs. You can also see some separation in leg muscles if I flex them (not much though... Just a bit) and some vein on my biceps. Surely it's not 15% mate... Btw cardio I like to do that also for health. Yeah I don't mind suffering mate. You reckon 500mg of test would be enough to retain on a drastic diet?


 That's me at 12-14%

500mg test would hold muscle. If your doing cardio too maybe at something else. Just a suggestion tho


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## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

Tren's physique said:


> No muscle loss? No stalls?


 Nope. hungry as fvck but felt and looked great


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## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

Fattymous Waterman said:


> Really? Well I don't think I could drop that low when I topped out at 230lbs.
> 
> I'd rather drop slower myself.


 I don't like prolonging my cuts,hard and fast


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## RedStar (Aug 8, 2014)

FelonE said:


> I don't like prolonging my cuts,hard and fast


 And you're saying you suffered no muscle loss at all? Don't mean to question you bud, hope you don't mind, it's just totally different to what I e done before.


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## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

Fattymous Waterman said:


> And you're saying you suffered no muscle loss at all? Don't mean to question you bud, hope you don't mind, it's just totally different to what I e done before.


 Not that I could tell no,obviously shrunk until after the cut and I carbed up etc. Was refeeding once a week up to maintenance as well,sometimes twice a week.

Can't say it'd work for everyone but it most definately worked for me


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## RedStar (Aug 8, 2014)

FelonE said:


> Not that I could tell no,obviously shrunk until after the cut and I carbed up etc. Was refeeding once a week up to maintenance as well,sometimes twice a week.
> 
> Can't say it'd work for everyone but it most definately worked for me


 Interesting. I'm dropping down again next week, it's just nice not having to force feed myself.


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## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

Fattymous Waterman said:


> Interesting. I'm dropping down again next week, it's just nice not having to force feed myself.


 Lol hard work ain't it,I'm used to it now


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## Tren's physique (Feb 13, 2016)

Growing Lad said:


> That's me at 12-14%
> 
> 500mg test would hold muscle. If your doing cardio too maybe at something else. Just a suggestion tho
> 
> View attachment 126351


 That's defo lower mate... Don't know if it's just the photo... But that's definitely lower.

What do you think @FelonE and @Fattymous Waterman?


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## Tren's physique (Feb 13, 2016)

FelonE said:


> Nope. hungry as fvck but felt and looked great


 Do you think I can do something similar on just 500mg test?


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## Fluke82 (Sep 10, 2015)

Fattymous Waterman said:


> Really? Well I don't think I could drop that low when I topped out at 230lbs.
> 
> I'd rather drop slower myself.


 You won't lose muscle with a moderate amount of drugs

even if you cut at sub 2k cals, I'm very sure if this


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## Fluke82 (Sep 10, 2015)

Tren's physique said:


> That's defo lower mate... Don't know if it's just the photo... But that's definitely lower.
> 
> What do you think @FelonE and @Fattymous Waterman?


 Nope. 13-14% there (good physique lad btw).

People severely over estimate.

Some people still see abs at near 20%


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## Tren's physique (Feb 13, 2016)

Drogon said:


> Nope. 13-14% there (good physique lad btw).
> 
> People severely over estimate.
> 
> Some people still see abs at near 20%


 Oh well. Then let's say I'm higher and I need to get at 10%. The substance doesn't change lol.


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## Growing Lad (Feb 14, 2009)

Yeh as I said mate that puts me at 12-14. Let's say 13. Average People comment oh your ripped but a true 10% is damn lean. You'll look great and enough for the beach. I'll get much leaner that that this year


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## Tren's physique (Feb 13, 2016)

@Drogon @Growing Lad

I don't want to open a debate... Just discuss with you this thing.

Apparently the YouTube screenshot is a tested (with the machine) 6-8%bf... (He showed the results precisely after he did the test).

And also... Ffs how can Buendia (and sadik too) be 4% in this photo if that of growing lad is a 13%? IMO he's more like 10%... 11%... It may also be the photo mate, would you care to post another as I'm curious?


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## RedStar (Aug 8, 2014)

FelonE said:


> Lol hard work ain't it,I'm used to it now


 I adapted but it wasnt enjoyable.


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## RedStar (Aug 8, 2014)

Drogon said:


> You won't lose muscle with a moderate amount of drugs
> 
> even if you cut at sub 2k cals, I'm very sure if this


 Will drop to 2500 next week, probably tuesday or wednesday. Thats from 6k down to 2500 in like 10-12 days then.


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## Growing Lad (Feb 14, 2009)

@Tren's physique

not a photo taker really mate couple from my FB. Back shot is at same time as that previous front shot. Second one is bulked up

















That screen shot looks way higher than 6-8 to me. Dexa isn't always 100%.

hydrostatic water weighing is gold standard


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## Fluke82 (Sep 10, 2015)

Fattymous Waterman said:


> Will drop to 2500 next week, probably tuesday or wednesday. Thats from 6k down to 2500 in like 10-12 days then.


 You'll look flatter, less glycogen and FEEL like you might be losing muscle.

But you really won't, and just need to power through and soon fill out when you up cals after.

Just my opinion, but strongly believe it


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## TheScam (Apr 30, 2013)

Tren's physique said:


> @Drogon @Growing Lad
> 
> I don't want to open a debate... Just discuss with you this thing.
> 
> ...


 Judging someone's body fat based purely on a shot of their upper body can be misleading. I can see four abs but I know im still over 15% because of where my fat stores. Mostly my ass and hips/lower back.


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## RedStar (Aug 8, 2014)

Drogon said:


> You'll look flatter, less glycogen and FEEL like you might be losing muscle.
> 
> But you really won't, and just need to power through and soon fill out when you up cals after.
> 
> Just my opinion, but strongly believe it


 I will no doubt look flatter in the day, but around my workout pre, intra and post i will consume my carbs.

Should help mentally and visually.


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## Tren's physique (Feb 13, 2016)

Growing Lad said:


> @Tren's physique
> 
> not a photo taker really mate couple from my FB. Back shot is at same time as that previous front shot. Second one is bulked up
> 
> ...


 Mate you're definitely lower... Seriously. I don't know what your bf actually is... But you defo SEEM at lower bf.

http://paindatabase.com/body-fat/

Take a look at this stuff... Apparently clinically tested bf... To show you how actually the REAL percentage matters very little and it's more the look... But anyway.


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## Tren's physique (Feb 13, 2016)

TheScam said:


> Judging someone's body fat based purely on a shot of their upper body can be misleading. I can see four abs but I know im still over 15% because of where my fat stores. Mostly my ass and hips/lower back.


 OK mate, that's true too. But you see the upper body is not crazy ripped anyway... Even if the legs were more ripped.


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## TheScam (Apr 30, 2013)

Tren's physique said:


> Mate you're definitely lower... Seriously. I don't know what your bf actually is... But you defo SEEM at lower bf.
> 
> http://paindatabase.com/body-fat/
> 
> Take a look at this stuff... Apparently clinically tested bf... To show you how actually the REAL percentage matters very little and it's more the look... But anyway.


 Interesting link that.

I probably look most like the 9.6 or 7% in terms of upper body (my display pic is a year old) yet I am certainly nowhere near that percentage.

Also, the 7% guy if you just saw his upper body you'd guess he was much higher, even though he's got the V's he doesnt look typically "lean"


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## Tren's physique (Feb 13, 2016)

TheScam said:


> Interesting link that.
> 
> I probably look most like the 9.6 or 7% in terms of upper body (my display pic is a year old) yet I am certainly nowhere near that percentage.
> 
> Also, the 7% guy if you just saw his upper body you'd guess he was much higher, even though he's got the V's he doesnt look typically "lean"


 That's why I care about the look and not about the bf... And also as much as I respect drogon, and growing lad too (despite I never talked to him before), this time I disagree with their view, as IMO growing lad is defo leaner... You can clearly see each muscle on his back, I don't know if it's just me. I'm not saying he's sub 10%, but for sure not 13... IMO he's 10/11%


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## UK2USA (Jan 30, 2016)

Drogon said:


> You won't lose muscle with a moderate amount of drugs
> 
> even if you cut at sub 2k cals, I'm very sure if this


 What would be a moderate amount of test for a cutting cycle? And would that amount change if you were to add in Anavar or Mast?


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## Tren's physique (Feb 13, 2016)

UK2USA said:


> What would be a moderate amount of test for a cutting cycle? And would that amount change if you were to add in Anavar or Mast?


 500mg test. Of course mate. More gear means not anymore a moderate amount... This imo.


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## TheScam (Apr 30, 2013)

Tren's physique said:


> That's why I care about the look and not about the bf... And also as much as I respect drogon, and growing lad too (despite I never talked to him before), this time I disagree with their view, as IMO growing lad is defo leaner... You can clearly see each muscle on his back, I don't know if it's just me. I'm not saying he's sub 10%, but for sure not 13... IMO he's 10/11%


 Yea i agree, i used to get hung up on the figures but now for me its more a "look" that im after rather than a number. Good luck on your plan


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## Growing Lad (Feb 14, 2009)

Tren's physique said:


> 500mg test. Of course mate. More gear means not anymore a moderate amount... This imo.


 That's all I ever use bulking or cutting


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## Tren's physique (Feb 13, 2016)

TheScam said:


> Yea i agree, i used to get hung up on the figures but now for me its more a "look" that im after rather than a number. Good luck on your plan


 Yeah mate... Also because people who store fat on butt and legs will obviously look way leaner than a person who stores on abs


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## Tren's physique (Feb 13, 2016)

Growing Lad said:


> That's all I ever use bulking or cutting


 Mmm we should talk a bit mate... Lol. I'm gonna PM you later. I was interested in doing this too, for health purposes... Nothing makes you feel as good as 500mg test


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## Growing Lad (Feb 14, 2009)

Tren's physique said:


> Mmm we should talk a bit mate... Lol. I'm gonna PM you later. I was interested in doing this too, for health purposes... Nothing makes you feel as good as 500mg test


 I tried exotic stuff in the past. But now I just settled for that. I don't take it too seriously obviously so for me ita all that's needed. Much easier than training natty but hopefully not too detrimental to health


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## TheScam (Apr 30, 2013)

Tren's physique said:


> Yeah mate... Also because people who store fat on butt and legs will obviously look way leaner than a person who stores on abs


 yep, thats what i've got unfortunately. Big thighs which are just starting to show their definition and an arse, but 4 abs showing. As much as it annoys me though, i think i'd rather than than the other way round really.


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## Tren's physique (Feb 13, 2016)

Growing Lad said:


> Wrong quote box





TheScam said:


> yep, thats what i've got unfortunately. Big thighs which are just starting to show their definition and an arse, but 4 abs showing. As much as it annoys me though, i think i'd rather than than the other way round really.


 Yeah me too mate... Tbh I store it more or less everywhere... So I don't complain too much. But mostly I store it on hips and lower back... As much as it annoys me... It's probably better than storing it right on the abs. But you know... The grass seems always greener on the other side lol.


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## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

Tren's physique said:


> Do you think I can do something similar on just 500mg test?


 Yes mate. I had a great cut on 500mg test and 50 winny for 7 weeks ages ago

This was the result


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## Tren's physique (Feb 13, 2016)

FelonE said:


> Yes mate. I had a great cut on 500mg test and 50 winny for 7 weeks ages ago
> 
> This was the result
> 
> View attachment 126358


 Looking ****in great mate!! I bet btw you were already starting from lower bf


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## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

Tren's physique said:


> That's defo lower mate... Don't know if it's just the photo... But that's definitely lower.
> 
> What do you think @FelonE and @Fattymous Waterman?


 10-12 I'd say. I'd say the pic of me below is 10 and he's not far off

https://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/?app=core&module=system&controller=embed&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.instagram.com%2Fp%2F64MivBSZDu%2F


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## Tren's physique (Feb 13, 2016)

FelonE said:


> 10-12 I'd say. I'd say the pic of me below is 10 and he's not far off
> 
> https://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/?app=core&module=system&controller=embed&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.instagram.com%2Fp%2F64MivBSZDu%2F


 Well then it's me mate... Because I would have told you two were equal... I've probably fallen in love with @Growing Lad so he looks better than he really is lol


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## Dan TT (May 9, 2012)

Fattymous Waterman said:


> Will drop to 2500 next week, probably tuesday or wednesday. Thats from 6k down to 2500 in like 10-12 days then.


 If your dropping to 2500 already, that makes me question what i'm doing at 2200 and probably could lower it.


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## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

Tren's physique said:


> Looking ****in great mate!! I bet btw you were already starting from lower bf


 I was about 18% bf before the cut....proper fat lol


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## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

Tren's physique said:


> Well then it's me mate... Because I would have told you two were equal... I've probably fallen in love with @Growing Lad so he looks better than he really is lol


 He's very loveable tbh


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## Growing Lad (Feb 14, 2009)

So much **** in this thread and I love it


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## Tren's physique (Feb 13, 2016)

FelonE said:


> I was about 18% bf before the cut....proper fat lol


 Oh ffs... And what did you do in that cut then? Intermittent fasting with very low kcals since the beginning?


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## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

Tren's physique said:


> Oh ffs... And what did you do in that cut then? Intermittent fasting with very low kcals since the beginning?


 Think cals were low all the way through yeah and introduced IF around 3-4 weeks from the end when it slowed diwn a tad.

Right below in pic 1 I was natty except for 3 weeks of m1t...hadn't trained for 3 months

Pic 2 was after 15 weeks of 500mg test. Bulked for first 8 up to over 15stone (ate dirty ),cut for 7 adding 50 winny for 6 weeks

Weight in both pics is 14stone


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## Todai (Jul 18, 2010)

my 12 week cut is supposed to start at 2800 .... I'm 14 stone 10.... now you's are making me want to just drop to 2000 and slog it out for a couple weeks with refeeds now and again


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## Tren's physique (Feb 13, 2016)

FelonE said:


> Think cals were low all the way through yeah and introduced IF around 3-4 weeks from the end when it slowed diwn a tad.
> 
> Right below in pic 1 I was natty except for 3 weeks of m1t...hadn't trained for 3 months
> 
> ...


 Second pic is probably how I would look now if I cut to that level I think... Not sure if it's just the lighting and pic though... As I should be heavier than you in that pic


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## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

Tren's physique said:


> Second pic is probably how I would look now if I cut to that level I think... Not sure if it's just the lighting and pic though... As I should be heavier than you in that pic


 How tall are you?


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## Tren's physique (Feb 13, 2016)

FelonE said:


> How tall are you?


 188cm x 100kg now mate... In the morning totally empty. Probably you're shorter.


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## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

Tren's physique said:


> 188cm x 100kg now mate... In the morning totally empty. Probably you're shorter.


 5ft 11


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## Tren's physique (Feb 13, 2016)

FelonE said:


> 5ft 11


 Yeah indeed. Getting to the same bf as you in that photo would be good. Probably gonna try the same approach as you mate... I'm curious to try it.


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## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

Tren's physique said:


> Yeah indeed. Getting to the same bf as you in that photo would be good. Probably gonna try the same approach as you mate... I'm curious to try it.


 Just try it mate. If you feel like you're losing too much strength/muscle etc just up cals a bit. Keep training hard and I think you'll be ok.

Keep me updated


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## totalwar (Jan 19, 2011)

So you guys have no cheat meals just refeeds?

how much extra carbs do you add on refeed days?

i though its better to drop cals slow say from 3k to 2750 2 weeks later 2500 ect?

do you not stall with weight loss after a few weeks


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## Fluke82 (Sep 10, 2015)

UK2USA said:


> What would be a moderate amount of test for a cutting cycle? And would that amount change if you were to add in Anavar or Mast?


 IMO 500mg test is easily enough to retain all muscle (unless you're a monster but 99% aren't).

or 250mg test 100mg var

250mg test 300/400 tren if you really want to push it

nothing more than that, they are all small to moderate dosages


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## zak007 (Nov 12, 2011)

Tren's physique said:


> 8 weeks keto? FFS.. Not so healthy, is it?


 You have regular refeeds, works best for me short term


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## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

totalwar said:


> So you guys have no cheat meals just refeeds?
> 
> how much extra carbs do you add on refeed days?
> 
> ...


 I don't personally have cheat meals.

Refeeds are carbs up to maintenance calories,to keep metabolism going.

As for dropping cals everyone is different but this fast/hard cut approach works for me.

If my weightloss stalls then I'll introduce intermittent fasting and add/lengthen cardio


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## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

Tren's physique said:


> I train around 4pm... What would be the best approach for me in your opinion?


 I'd eat between 8 and 4 but with most of the food early on,then nothing until 8am next morning. Obviously water etc would also try and get 4-5 litres of water in.


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## Dan TT (May 9, 2012)

FelonE said:


> I'd eat between 8 and 4 but with most of the food early on,then nothing until 8am next morning. Obviously water etc would also try and get 4-5 litres of water in.


 What would your macros look like for this?


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## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

Dan TT said:


> What would your macros look like for this?


 I don't count macros mate,just overall calories. Carbs low and protein high though. Whatever they ended up being they'd be.


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## UK2USA (Jan 30, 2016)

Drogon said:


> IMO 500mg test is easily enough to retain all muscle (unless you're a monster but 99% aren't).
> 
> or 250mg test 100mg var
> 
> ...


 Thanks Drogon.


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## Todai (Jul 18, 2010)

FelonE said:


> I'd eat between 8 and 4 but with most of the food early on,then nothing until 8am next morning. Obviously water etc would also try and get 4-5 litres of water in.


 Whats your pros to this and why? i've never tried it - why do you do it?


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## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

todai said:


> Whats your pros to this and why? i've never tried it - why do you do it?


 I do it because it speeds up fat loss for me,I do it because it works for me.


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## nitrogen (Oct 25, 2007)

IF


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## Todai (Jul 18, 2010)

FelonE said:


> I do it because it speeds up fat loss for me,I do it because it works for me.


 ok, ill ask it a different way - what made you think of doing it this way? I'm really interested in this i train around 5.30pm and would like to try this out? so my last meal would be at say 5pm, then train, then do cardio before bed...

Also not natty...


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## Growing Lad (Feb 14, 2009)

IF has no magic fat loss properties if you compared it to an identical calorie/macro spread out through the day vs 8 hour window.

i do it tho too cos I'm not hungry in the morning and get to eat bigger meals later in the day.


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## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

todai said:


> ok, ill ask it a different way - what made you think of doing it this way? I'm really interested in this i train around 5.30pm and would like to try this out? so my last meal would be at say 5pm, then train, then do cardio before bed...
> 
> Also not natty...


 I just read up on it and saw it was working for people so gave it a go and it worked. Tbh I don't know why it works it just does mate. Yeah try it out.


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## Todai (Jul 18, 2010)

Growing Lad said:


> IF has no magic fat loss properties if you compared it to an identical calorie/macro spread out through the day vs 8 hour window.
> 
> i do it tho too cos I'm not hungry in the morning and get to eat bigger meals later in the day.


 fair enough, i was just thinking less insulin spikes throughout the day. was what i could think of


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## Growing Lad (Feb 14, 2009)

todai said:


> fair enough, i was just thinking less insulin spikes throughout the day. was what i could think of


 Insulin spikes won't matter mate in a calorie deficit. Your body is constantly switching between storing and burning. If you in an overall deficit there is no extra energy to store as fat


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## Todai (Jul 18, 2010)

Growing Lad said:


> Insulin spikes won't matter mate in a calorie deficit. Your body is constantly switching between storing and burning. If you in an overall deficit there is no extra energy to store as fat


 what about recovery after the workout, if I'm having no food? am I at a disadvantage to keeping muscle? if i've trained and then cardio then have a further 14-15 hours without food?

just like to hear from guys who've actually did it rather than google a million theories


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## Growing Lad (Feb 14, 2009)

For me personally I have 3 meals

2pm meal 1

train

6pm biggest meal 2

10pm meal 3

the main factor for keeping muscle is maintaining intensity in the gym whilst eating adequate protein overall each day. Drugs help. But just use a meal pattern that works for you.


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## swole troll (Apr 15, 2015)

todai said:


> ok, ill ask it a different way - what made you think of doing it this way? I'm really interested in this i train around 5.30pm and would like to try this out? so my last meal would be at say 5pm, then train, then do cardio before bed...
> 
> Also not natty...


 the benefit of intermittent fasting is satiety

when my calories have gotten closer to 2k in the past i find that eating over a 12-16 hour window makes for very small meals that leave me hungry all day

whereas with IF you spend the morning a little hungry but training usually eats into a big chunk of that hunger and generally i wont be thinking about food whilst working out and then you only have to spend another hour or two hungry before you get to eat three to four 700-500 calorie meals that are actually going to fill you up instead of leaving you hungry for more food

people often spout the benefits of transient endogenous GH release by running IF but ive seen no data to suggest this adds in anyway to the end result of getting leaner whilst retaining as much LBM as possible


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## totalwar (Jan 19, 2011)

So no protein for 14-15 hours.. Big cals drop and low cals

can see this eating up alot of muscle. Maybe the slow way would work better if retaining muscle is your goal

i think you would just send the body into starvation mode


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## swole troll (Apr 15, 2015)

Starvation *mode*?

Not sure if I've got that function programmed in, what does it do?

I've only got basal metabolic rate and total daily energy expenditure


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## Growing Lad (Feb 14, 2009)

totalwar said:


> So no protein for 14-15 hours.. Big cals drop and low cals
> 
> can see this eating up alot of muscle. Maybe the slow way would work better if retaining muscle is your goal
> 
> i think you would just send the body into starvation mode


 He can eat any meal pattern he likes that helps him adhere to the diet.

big kcal drop yep but very high protein, resistance training + steroids to offset any muscle wastage.

starvation mode is massively overplayed, the Minnesota starvation study found subjects had a 40% drop in RMR. This was after 6 months on 50% maintenance kcal, all subjects were at 5% bf, had lost 25% total body weight (accounting for 25% of the 40% RMR drop) plus they weren't lifting weights eating adequate protein or taking steroids. So at worst had a 15% reduction in RMR taking into account body weight. In other words don't worry about starvation mode.


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## Todai (Jul 18, 2010)

Growing Lad said:


> He can eat any meal pattern he likes that helps him adhere to the diet.
> 
> big kcal drop yep but very high protein, resistance training + steroids to offset any muscle wastage.
> 
> starvation mode is massively overplayed, the Minnesota starvation study found subjects had a 40% drop in RMR. This was after 6 months on 50% maintenance kcal, all subjects were at 5% bf, had lost 25% total body weight (accounting for 25% of the 40% RMR drop) plus they weren't lifting weights eating adequate protein or taking steroids. So at worst had a 15% reduction in RMR taking into account body weight. In other words don't worry about starvation mode.


 love a bit of science


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## NoGutsNoGloryy (Jan 7, 2013)

Drogon said:


> This but lower cals. 1900.
> 
> you know my opinion on protein recommendations already


 Dropping calories to quickly is dumb


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## Fluke82 (Sep 10, 2015)

NoGutsNoGloryy said:


> Dropping calories to quickly is dumb


 Why is it?


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## NoGutsNoGloryy (Jan 7, 2013)

Drogon said:


> Why is it?


 Well most people who can't cut properly or have a hard time dieting will just get to many cravings, eventually just leading to a binge and you will adjust to 1900 calories rather quickly, by the end of the cut you'd end up maintaining body weight on what a child eats daily. Add in cardio to, it's just not going to be a very successful cut imo.

In 8 weeks you can do it so much easier for example and i'm dieting on 2400-2800 calories most days and the best thing is, i'm not even finding it challenging at all nor do i get any cravings and i'm also losing weight faster than what most people diet on silly low calories do.


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## RedStar (Aug 8, 2014)

Drogon said:


> Why is it?


 Probably the idea of looking flat, not being able to lift at same intensity etc, mind fvcking when you look in the mirror, progressive slow cuts probably are better.

But the reality is, if by being hard on myself for 6 weeks I can achieve what I would normally achieve in 10, then I would do the 6 weeks.


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## 31205 (Jan 16, 2013)

Tren's physique said:


> Can't do morning cardio. Is it OK if I do cardio after a 5/6 hours fast?


 I'll do whatever it takes but not cardio and not keto? So basically not whatever it takes?


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## Fluke82 (Sep 10, 2015)

NoGutsNoGloryy said:


> Well most people who can't cut properly or have a hard time dieting will just get to many cravings, eventually just leading to a binge and you will adjust to 1900 calories rather quickly, by the end of the cut you'd end up maintaining body weight on what a child eats daily. Add in cardio to, it's just not going to be a very successful cut imo.
> 
> In 8 weeks you can do it so much easier for example and i'm dieting on 2400-2800 calories most days and the best thing is, i'm not even finding it challenging at all nor do i get any cravings and i'm also losing weight faster than what most people diet on silly low calories do.


 What do you mean "adjust"? Starvation mode is a myth. See @Growing Lad 's post above on the Minnesota starvation study (actual real life, scientific results). So that point is an absolute no-go of yours.

and then re the rest, if you want an easier ride, then yes, run a small deficit. He doesn't say he wants an easier ride, he wants to get to a certain goal as fast/well as possible.

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/size-of-deficit-and-muscle-catabolism-qa.html

read that from one of the TOP individuals in this field (and remember, OP will be using steroids here as well, lol)



Fattymous Waterman said:


> Probably the idea of looking flat, not being able to lift at same intensity etc, mind fvcking when you look in the mirror, progressive slow cuts probably are better.
> 
> But the reality is, if by being hard on myself for 6 weeks I can achieve what I would normally achieve in 10, then I would do the 6 weeks.


 As above mate, in terms of results, effectiveness and achieving your end goal, a thought out fast cut is absolutely miles better (read the above link, great answer).

If you want to feel a bit better, feel a bit more pumped etc then yes, slow cut, but at the end of the day you are wasting valuable time imo.

i'd rather get my cut done ASAP so you can actually get back to building strength and gaining muscle (both of which we know are icnredibly hard in a deficit, the latter being near impossible without heavy AAS use). Doing it this way, you will make much better gains over say a year than slow cutting.


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## RedStar (Aug 8, 2014)

Drogon said:


> What do you mean "adjust"? Starvation mode is a myth. See @Growing Lad 's post above on the Minnesota starvation study (actual real life, scientific results). So that point is an absolute no-go of yours.
> 
> and then re the rest, if you want an easier ride, then yes, run a small deficit. He doesn't say he wants an easier ride, he wants to get to a certain goal as fast/well as possible.
> 
> ...


 Thanks fella will look into this at lunch.

I am losing so much water since coming off deca, most notably in my face, neck and waist. Trousers are already a lot looser.

I dropped to 2750 today, will do that this week, and then bang, down to 2000 cals.


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## Tren's physique (Feb 13, 2016)

sen said:


> I'll do whatever it takes but not cardio and not keto? So basically not whatever it takes?


 Where did i say no keto and no cardio? I can't do cardio in the morning, it would be just counterproductive, as I already can't sleep enough.


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## Fluke82 (Sep 10, 2015)

Fattymous Waterman said:


> Thanks fella will look into this at lunch.
> 
> I am losing so much water since coming off deca, most notably in my face, neck and waist. Trousers are already a lot looser.
> 
> I dropped to 2750 today, will do that this week, and then bang, down to 2000 cals.


 bet you feel a lot better now though?

I have come to the conlusion I hate feeling heavy/bloated now, the main thing is breathing. I am already a heavy breather and hate it getting worse!

Will be great to see your results when you drop cals (to prove my point above), I know you'll stick to it also.

How is the TM var? I am lab-maxing tonight.


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## Dan TT (May 9, 2012)

This thread is making me really question if i'm too many cals at 2200 @ 93kg 5"11. Have just added Tren + T3 up to 50mcg today mind you.


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## RedStar (Aug 8, 2014)

Drogon said:


> bet you feel a lot better now though?
> 
> I have come to the conlusion I hate feeling heavy/bloated now, the main thing is breathing. I am already a heavy breather and hate it getting worse!
> 
> ...


 I will post pics end of this week. That will be 2 weeks cutting 7 days at 4,000 cals, 1 week at 2750 cals. Then week 3 will be 2000 cals.

I hate the strained breathing, already my snoring is dying down, still there but not so loud I am told.

The TM var is serving me nicely, nice little pumps, feel harder when it is active in my body, strength hasn't shot down since starting cut, shin pumps and no signs of dht based winny sides.


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## Todai (Jul 18, 2010)

I'm the same - i've started today cals down at 2-2250 - depending on meals. Test/tren - var, clen - thought about t3 but with my cals being so low anyways i don't think ill majority need it.

Only eating later in the day tho, before the gym, then after, then one meal, then cardio before bed. 
Easy for me as i suffer cramps in mornings and stuff, so tbh i don't feel hungry till later in the day and I'm up late anyways.

ill take in some BCAA during my cardio


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## NoGutsNoGloryy (Jan 7, 2013)

Drogon said:


> What do you mean "adjust"? Starvation mode is a myth. See @Growing Lad 's post above on the Minnesota starvation study (actual real life, scientific results). So that point is an absolute no-go of yours.
> 
> and then re the rest, if you want an easier ride, then yes, run a small deficit. He doesn't say he wants an easier ride, he wants to get to a certain goal as fast/well as possible.
> 
> ...


 Well i can't account for one study, sure it has evidence, i'm not going to argue with that but it's just one study. Have you ever even done a 20week cut... Most of the time you have to consistently drop calories every now and then because stalled weight loss so how do you explain that?

And not everybody does this a hobby like myself it's not wasting valuable time at all... I do this as a lifestyle not to just look good for a 3day holiday or half an hour of posing about with a pair of ball stranglers but yeah each to their own. That's why i prefer to do longer cuts, because it's healthier and more enjoyable.


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## Todai (Jul 18, 2010)

NoGutsNoGloryy said:


> Well i can't account for one study, sure it has evidence, i'm not going to argue with that but it's just one study. Have you ever even done a 20week cut... Most of the time you have to consistently drop calories every now and then because stalled weight loss so how do you explain that?
> 
> And not everybody does this a hobby like myself it's not wasting valuable time at all... I do this as a lifestyle not to just look good for a 3day holiday or half an hour of posing about with a pair of ball stranglers but yeah each to their own. That's why i prefer to do longer cuts, because it's healthier and more enjoyable.


 What about super low calories with weekly refeeds?

there's some impressive physiques here with different views on cutting - and as we can see theres many ways to tie a shoe lace i guess


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## Fluke82 (Sep 10, 2015)

NoGutsNoGloryy said:


> Well i can't account for one study, sure it has evidence, i'm not going to argue with that but it's just one study. *Have you ever even done a 20week cut... Most of the time you have to consistently drop calories every now and then because stalled weight loss so how do you explain that?*
> 
> And not everybody does this a hobby like myself it's not wasting valuable time at all... I do this as a lifestyle not to just look good for a 3day holiday or half an hour of posing about with a pair of ball stranglers but yeah each to their own. That's why i prefer to do longer cuts, because it's healthier and more enjoyable.


 Yes, I have tried both, and can tell you, fast cuts are better in every-way except feeling a tad worse, but you never feel great dieting so why not get it over with asap.

If you ran an actual appreciable deficit, the 20 week cut would become 10 weeks. You stall on your 20 week slow cut because a) your weight goes down and therefore your TDEE does, but as the deficit is so small it becomes EVEN smaller and you stall. You also have less of a margin for error on a small deficit. No one can count to 100% accuracy. If you're cutting on 250-500 cals, it is very very easy to miscaulate your calories by 5% and there's half your deficit gone.

After a fast cut you'd also have 10 weeks on top lean bulking (actually gaining muscle andd strength) compared to a 20 "slow" week cut.

Please tell me also why cutting slow is "healthier"? you do spew some bro-science mate.

Again, being in a deficit for 10 weeks (1000 cal deficit) vs 20 weeks (500 cal deficit). You could go back to maintenance/normal/bulking calories in half the time PLUS you'd spend less time carrying more fat (which we know doesn't got too well with all the major diseases etc  ) . Tell me again which way seems healthier?


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## Colin (Sep 28, 2015)

Tren's physique said:


> 8 weeks keto? FFS.. *Not so healthy*, is it?


 Why do you think that?


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## NoGutsNoGloryy (Jan 7, 2013)

Drogon said:


> Yes, I have tried both, and can tell you, fast cuts are better in every-way except feeling a tad worse, but you never feel great dieting so why not get it over with asap.
> 
> If you ran an actual appreciable deficit, the 20 week cut would become 10 weeks. You stall on your 20 week slow cut because a) your weight goes down and therefore your TDEE does, but as the deficit is so small it becomes EVEN smaller and you stall. You also have less of a margin for error on a small deficit. No one can count to 100% accuracy. If you're cutting on 250-500 cals, it is very very easy to miscaulate your calories by 5% and there's half your deficit gone.
> 
> ...


 The whole point i'm trying to say is i don't do this bodybuilding bullsht where i have to diet so hard for 6weeks just to look good. I eat healthy for my lifestyle, i don't get fat then cut back down and repeat over and over again.. falling back into the same trap, maybe people should get some willpower and do it year round lol.

I eat the same year round, it's healthier because i eat "clean" and i never get obese like most lols and what the fvck is healthy about eating a childs portion when most of us weigh like 200lbs. My brother is 14 and eats more than you guys do and he's not fat at all and like i said i eat like i do for my LIFESTYLE and it is more enjoyable because whilst most you guys sit about at home eating your boring chicken & rice out of your plastic boxes, i go out every weekend & eat fastfood twice a week and i'm pretty sure i'm leaner than most guys... and i've only been "dieting" for a month... Oh and just because you do once a year 10 week cut doesn't mean you're immune to diseases and also like i said, i don't gain any fat matey because i don't bulk.. So tell me again... which way seems healthier?


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## Fluke82 (Sep 10, 2015)

NoGutsNoGloryy said:


> The whole point i'm trying to say is i don't do this bodybuilding bullsht where i have to diet so hard for 6weeks just to look good. I eat healthy for my lifestyle, i don't get fat then cut back down and repeat over and over again.. falling back into the same trap, maybe people should get some willpower and do it year round lol.
> 
> I eat the same year round, it's healthier because i eat "clean" and i never get obese like most lols and what the fvck is healthy about eating a childs portion when most of us weigh like 200lbs. My brother is 14 and eats more than you guys do and he's not fat at all and like i said i eat like i do for my LIFESTYLE and it is more enjoyable because whilst most you guys sit about at home eating your boring chicken & rice out of your plastic boxes, i go out every weekend & eat fastfood twice a week and i'm pretty sure i'm leaner than most guys... and i've only been "dieting" for a month... Oh and just because you do once a year 10 week cut doesn't mean you're immune to diseases and also like i said, i don't gain any fat matey because i don't bulk.. So tell me again... which way seems healthier?


 Lol boring chicken and rice? I eat/drink whatever I want mate, being clever about it is the key.

Not even going to respond to the rest, I've proved (with studies, links etc) every point you made is redundant and you just post more garbage.

Do what works for you and crack on, I am happy you are content.


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## Tren's physique (Feb 13, 2016)

Colin said:


> Why do you think that?


 Eating practically no carbs for 8 weeks means that in the end you'll have a very very high concentration of ketones in your body, which is a state called ketoacidosis. I think you know what it is. Otherwise I'll go more into the detail. What do you think? Maybe planning some refeeds it can be done with no problems


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## AngryBuddha (Nov 25, 2015)

Celery, tabasco and kangaroo steak diet is quickly becoming the most popular, and effective diet for getting ripped fast, even a few ifbb pro's are implementing it, if you have paypal pm me for more info


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## Growing Lad (Feb 14, 2009)

NoGutsNoGloryy said:


> Well i can't account for one study, sure it has evidence, i'm not going to argue with that but it's just one study. Have you ever even done a 20week cut... Most of the time you have to consistently drop calories every now and then because stalled weight loss so how do you explain that?
> 
> And not everybody does this a hobby like myself it's not wasting valuable time at all... I do this as a lifestyle not to just look good for a 3day holiday or half an hour of posing about with a pair of ball stranglers but yeah each to their own. That's why i prefer to do longer cuts, because it's healthier and more enjoyable.


 That one study is the largest most well documented study on starvation/calorie restriction that's ever taken place.


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## Colin (Sep 28, 2015)

Tren's physique said:


> Eating practically no carbs for 8 weeks means that in the end you'll have a very very high concentration of ketones in your body, which is a state called ketoacidosis. I think you know what it is. Otherwise I'll go more into the detail. What do you think? Maybe planning some refeeds it can be done with no problems


 Every time i diet I use Keto so yes know its ins and outs.

Your statement about being on keto for 8 weeks will cause ketoacidosis is very very wrong. I don't no any one who used keto for dieting has experienced this.

Yes you will have more ketones in your body but this isn't a problem at all.


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## Sebbek (Apr 25, 2013)

I'm dropping to 1500 cals /6-8 weeks job done

high protein and fat

test between 250-350(depends on body weight I'm approaching cut with)- t3 only first few weeks then oxy

S


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## UlsterRugby (Nov 16, 2014)

totalwar said:


> So no protein for 14-15 hours.. Big cals drop and low cals
> 
> can see this eating up alot of muscle. Maybe the slow way would work better if retaining muscle is your goal
> 
> i think you would just send the body into starvation mode


 What's this starvation mode you speak of


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## Growing Lad (Feb 14, 2009)

guys all methods work, high carb, keto, IF, 6 meals a day. That's all minutia, the big picture is hitting calories and protein in a way that allows you to adhere to it.

now OP has 8 weeks, this timeframe means Cals need to be aggressive, you don't have to do this if you have time, If you want to look full, maintain 100% intensity in the gym then by all means use a smaller deficit.

if you hate dieting and want to get it over with as quick as possible use a big deficit.

things you don't need to worry about are epic muscle wastage, metabolic damage and starvation mode.

and one guy said there is a going to be a binge on the low cal diet, once you get down to low body fat even on the higher cal diet your hormones will want you to eat. This is where the will power comes in.

Also refeeds really aren't needed, especially if over 8% body fat. It takes a week or two of over feeding to bring hormones back in place, so one day achieves nothing. Plus a little dose of t3 will fix a lot.

there a million ways to skin a cat


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## Growing Lad (Feb 14, 2009)

All my mates normally ask me how to get in shape for holiday but they usually have a million retarded questions and overthink everything. So I don't know if this will help anyone but this is what I tell my mates now a days

diet:

body weight in pounds X 10 = total kcals

body weight I pounds X 1 = protein intake.

eat what you want, as many or few meals as you want, just hit calories and protein.

Lift weight 3 X week full body.

cardio is just for calorie burning, HIT, low intensity, fasted. Doesn't matter just do it to burn some calories a couple times a week.

this is very simplistic but works and very easy to follow


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## Tren's physique (Feb 13, 2016)

Sebbek said:


> I'm dropping to 1500 cals /6-8 weeks job done
> 
> high protein and fat
> 
> ...


 And you don't loose any muscle on that dosage? I guess you don't cut aggressively


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## Sebbek (Apr 25, 2013)

Tren's physique said:


> And you don't loose any muscle on that dosage? I guess you don't cut aggressively


 No muscle waste

If skin start to get loose cals up

Aggresive cut this is from 3500 (maintenance)

S


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## totalwar (Jan 19, 2011)

I think big calorie drops leads to muscle loss.

if you drop a 1000 cals then boby will take half from fat half from muscle..

OP could

drop 250 week 1 2750

drop 250 week 2 2500

drop 250 week 3 2250

drop 250 week 4 2000

then stay on that for 4 weeks

i still think its thats a massive drop in cals but i think wouldbwork better still extreme

as none of the pros do these quick cuts or IIFYM.

Dont they say more than 1-2lb a week weight loss is muscle?


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## Peasnall (Jan 24, 2011)

totalwar said:


> I think big calorie drops leads to muscle loss.
> 
> if you drop a 1000 cals then boby will take half from fat half from muscle..
> 
> ...


 Not with test and tren in the mix


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## JohhnyC (Mar 16, 2015)

Sebbek said:


> I'm dropping to 1500 cals /6-8 weeks job done
> 
> high protein and fat
> 
> ...


 tried that last week and lasted about a day and a half then ate a 2000cal meal

Hard to get your proteins in on that low. Meals become very boring

Great if you can do it, I have no will power, puts me in a shitty mood. 2000 - 2200 is about the lowest I can go I reckon before I start getting hungry all day


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## Sebbek (Apr 25, 2013)

JohhnyC said:


> tried that last week and lasted about a day and a half then ate a 2000cal meal
> 
> Hard to get your proteins in on that low. Meals become very boring
> 
> Great if you can do it, I have no will power, puts me in a shitty mood. 2000 - 2200 is about the lowest I can go I reckon before I start getting hungry all day


 When I was younger low carbs were making me like a ticking bomb

Now it's a lot easier

I do get cravings now and then but it's manageable

I don't go over 14-15% bf through the year so not much to cut anyway

Best

S


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