# Ppl or classic 3 day split?



## lionheart1111 (Nov 22, 2017)

Hello, I' ve benn lifing for 3 years, which split would be better when I'm bulking: push, pull, legs or chest tri, back bi, legs shoulders? I prefer the second one, but I heard that shoulders don"t have enought time to recover before chest training? Thanks.


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## Mingster (Mar 25, 2011)

Whichever routine you can stick with and progress with will serve you best.

Personally I prefer Push/Pull/Legs or Upper/Lower but you can make progress on any routine. My advice would be on exercise selection. Pick the exercises that will give you most bang for your buck. Squats, Deads, Presses, Rows, Chins and Dips will give you far better results than a load of isolation work, and you can spend less time in the gym to boot.


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## lionheart1111 (Nov 22, 2017)

I thought the same, but the reason I ask is that I read Frankie NY's article where he wrote that there is no chance to recover for shoulder if you're doing them on friday and on monday you make chest, in fact you are all the time overtrained. I find your routine, I like the simple, do you still think that there is no need to overhead press for shoulders?

Squat/SLDL/Calf exercise.

Bench/Dips/Side Laterals/Tricep exercise.

Deads/Chins/Rear Flyes/Bicep exercise.


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## Mingster (Mar 25, 2011)

lionheart1111 said:


> I thought the same, but the reason I ask is that I read Frankie NY's article where he wrote that there is no chance to recover for shoulder if you're doing them on friday and on monday you make chest, in fact you are all the time overtrained. I find your routine, I like the simple, do you still think that there is no need to overhead press for shoulders?
> 
> Squat/SLDL/Calf exercise.
> 
> ...


 I don't use an overhead press. My front delts get all the work they need from Benching. Side and Rear Laterals or Face Pulls is enough for me.


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

While I really enjoy overhead presses, I have to say my best shoulder development has come with a shoulder routine of nothing more than lateral raises and bent over lateral raises. Benching does a great job for the anterior deltoids and the upper traps get a good workout from heavy deadlifting.


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## AestheticManlet (Jun 12, 2012)

4 day upper lower for me. Bench, ohp, deads and squats twice a week.


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## lionheart1111 (Nov 22, 2017)

Mingster what abaut traps, should I add shrugs in pull day? (I will replace deadlift by rowing).


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## superdrol (Aug 9, 2012)

lionheart1111 said:


> Mingster what abaut traps, should I add shrugs in pull day? (I will replace dead lift by rowling).


 Traps will get worked with lateral raises to some degree and deads ?? Traps are probably one of the easiest muscles to grow so i wouldn't specifically target them


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## Mingster (Mar 25, 2011)

lionheart1111 said:


> Mingster what abaut traps, should I add shrugs in pull day? (I will replace deadlift by rowing).


 Deads does for my traps. They do ok.


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## lionheart1111 (Nov 22, 2017)

Congratulation, that's a impressing, but I will replace deatlift by barbell rows, that's why I'm asking.


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## Mingster (Mar 25, 2011)

lionheart1111 said:


> Congratulation, that's a impressing, but I will replace deatlift by barbell rows, that's why I'm asking.


 Rows will do a job for you.


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## lionheart1111 (Nov 22, 2017)

Thank you then, all the best.


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## lionheart1111 (Nov 22, 2017)

Sorry Mingster, I have one more last question, if in nearest future my main goal is making mass, do I need things like lateral raises and real flies? Maybe better make it simple, so it would be like this:

Squat4x8/SLDL 4x8/Calf exercise 3x8.

Bench 4x8/Dips 4x8/french press 3x8.

Row 4x8/Chins 4x8/barbell curls 3x8.

Or maybe throw out french press and barbell curl also?


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## Mingster (Mar 25, 2011)

lionheart1111 said:


> Sorry Mingster, I have one more last question, if in nearest future my main goal is making mass, do I need things like lateral raises and real flies? Maybe better make it simple, so it would be like this:
> 
> Squat4x8/SLDL 4x8/Calf exercise 3x8.
> 
> ...


 The above is pretty much exactly what I've done for 80% of my lifting history tbh. I didn't bother with the Laterals for many years and didn't seem to suffer too badly for their omission. Having said that, I suspect I was fortunate not to suffer any injuries stemming from the imbalance in my delts and would, nowadays, always recommend that you keep the Lateral work in there.

There's no need to go mad. 2-3 sets of each would suffice.


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## lionheart1111 (Nov 22, 2017)

Mingster I'll ask yet about rep range, do you recommend 5x5 system (all 5 sets the sam weight) in common exercises or stick 4x8 (pyramid)?

Squat4x8/SLDL 3x8/Calf exercise 2x8.

Bench 4x8/Dips 3x8/french press 2x8/lateral raises 2x8

Row 4x8/Chins 3x8/barbell curls 2x8/reverse fly 2x8

or

Squat 5x5/SLDL 5x5/Calf exercise 2x8.

Bench 5x5/Dips 5x5/french press 2x8/lateral raises 2x8

Row 5x5/Chins 5x5/barbell curls 2x8/reverse fly 2x8


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## Mingster (Mar 25, 2011)

First exercise 5 sets 10,10,8,6,4 reps increasing weight as you go.

Second exercise 3 sets of 10 reps. If you can't do 10 reps gradually increase the reps over time till you can.

Third exercise 2-3 sets of 10-15 reps.

When you hit rep target for an exercise two workouts in a row up the weight next time.


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## nWo (Mar 25, 2014)

lionheart1111 said:


> Congratulation, that's a impressing, but I will replace deatlift by barbell rows, that's why I'm asking.


 The various types of rows all hit your upper traps, if they're Yates style rows especially.

As for 3 day splits, can't go far wrong with either a PPL or alternating upper/lower.


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## lionheart1111 (Nov 22, 2017)

Mingster I have one more question- I read this article, there are similar advices like you gave, but one thing is different, the warm- up sets, he write to make couple two, three reps and than 1 or 2 workout sets, what do you think about it?

http://npcnewsonline.com/powerbuilding-you-dont-grow-in-the-gym/63930/


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## Mingster (Mar 25, 2011)

lionheart1111 said:


> Mingster I have one more question- I read this article, there are similar advices like you gave, but one thing is different, the warm- up sets, he write to make couple two, three reps and than 1 or 2 workout sets, what do you think about it?
> 
> http://npcnewsonline.com/powerbuilding-you-dont-grow-in-the-gym/63930/


 I agree that you don't want to waste energy on warm-ups but 2-3 reps for a warm up set will not provide the two factors you are looking for from these sets. These are 1) Preparing the muscle for the heavier weight the next set will bring, and 2) Establishing your lifting groove and tempo.

If you choose your weights wisely the warm-up sets will provide both of these essential factors whilst not taxing your muscles unduly and reducing the energy you have left for your working sets.

This is relative to the individual, and is something you will perfect with experience. Using the set and rep protocol I've suggested for the first exercises you would pick a light weight for the first set of 10, and focus on form and tempo. You should not be fatigued by this set. Add some weight for the second set of 10, and do the same. Then again for the third set of 8. This should get you thoroughly warmed up, and your lifting groove and rhythm will be established. The fourth set of 6 should be done with a weight you can normally get 8 reps with. You will feel this set, but not be blowing like a beached whale. The final set of 4 should be the all out, balls to the wall effort set.


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

Mingster said:


> I agree that you don't want to waste energy on warm-ups but 2-3 reps for a warm up set will not provide the two factors you are looking for from these sets. These are 1) Preparing the muscle for the heavier weight the next set will bring, and 2) Establishing your lifting groove and tempo.
> 
> If you choose your weights wisely the warm-up sets will provide both of these essential factors whilst not taxing your muscles unduly and reducing the energy you have left for your working sets.


 IMO the above is absolutely crucial reasoning as to why you should do exercise specific warm up sets. Great post.


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## lionheart1111 (Nov 22, 2017)

Thank you Mingster one more time, you make me clear, but one more thing makes me I can't sleep, why pyramid sets ( 10,10,8,6,4 ) are better than 5x5 (all sets the same weight) when making mass, you didn't write it but I think you think like that. I read Frankie NY's routine and it make sense also what he write, I know that the best thing is to check how it works by myself but I don't want to lose 2, 3 months if it doesn't work so good.


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## Mingster (Mar 25, 2011)

lionheart1111 said:


> Thank you Mingster one more time, you make me clear, but one more thing makes me I can't sleep, why pyramid sets ( 10,10,8,6,4 ) are better than 5x5 (all sets the same weight) when making mass, you didn't write it but I think you think like that. I read Frankie NY's routine and it make sense also what he write, I know that the best thing is to check how it works by myself but I don't want to lose 2, 3 months if it doesn't work so good.


 It's simply what I prefer. Mo more, no less. Try both methods over time and see which works best for you. It's not wasted time, as there's no right way. You should progress using both methods.


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## superdrol (Aug 9, 2012)

lionheart1111 said:


> Thank you Mingster one more time, you make me clear, but one more thing makes me I can't sleep, why pyramid sets ( 10,10,8,6,4 ) are better than 5x5 (all sets the same weight) when making mass, you didn't write it but I think you think like that. I read Frankie NY's routine and it make sense also what he write, I know that the best thing is to check how it works by myself but I don't want to lose 2, 3 months if it doesn't work so good.


 I'd guess the reasoning is that a combination of higher and lower reps will affect strength and hypertrohy and allow heavier weights to be shifted on the last sets but also hypertrophy on earlier sets and different muscle fibres, but 3x10, 5x5 etc will all grow muscle, as said you just need to find one that suits you and your body and your goals


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## Mingster (Mar 25, 2011)

superdrol said:


> I'd guess the reasoning is that a combination of higher and lower reps will affect strength and hypertrohy and allow heavier weights to be shifted on the last sets but also hypertrophy on earlier sets and different muscle fibres, but 3x10, 5x5 etc will all grow muscle, as said you just need to find one that suits you and your body and your goals


 The routine covers all rep ranges. The higher rep sets with the first exercise are entirely for warm-up purposes and play no role, save the two previously mentioned, towards strength or hypertrophy.

IMO, 5x5 limits strength gains as I feel there's too much volume at too low a weight. You can lift considerably more weight for four reps than you can with 5x5.


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## lionheart1111 (Nov 22, 2017)

Mingster I have really last question, I am after 1st sesion my new routine, I like the simple, stimulate and go home, but what about french press, do in long time you feel it's really necessary? Do bench press and dips is not enought? I understand biceps curl, hard to feel biceps in row and chins, but dips wouldn't be enought?


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## Mingster (Mar 25, 2011)

lionheart1111 said:


> Mingster I have really last question, I am after 1st sesion my new routine, I like the simple, stimulate and go home, but what about french press, do in long time you feel it's really necessary? Do bench press and dips is not enought? I understand biceps curl, hard to feel biceps in row and chins, but dips wouldn't be enought?


 If you feel that it is enough, and you are getting satisfactory results, then it is enough.


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## lionheart1111 (Nov 22, 2017)

Hello Mingster, if you have time I have one more question- after few time my routine looks like this:

monday- bench press 5x5, dips 5x5

wed- rows 5x5, pull ups 5x5

friday- squats 5x5

I really enjoy 5x5 reps range (all 5 sets the same weight), I feel stronger and my regeneration is well but I think to do sth. like that:

monday- bench press, dips, rows, pull up

thursday- squats

Do you think it's a good idea or it can be too much to do all upper body lifts in one day? The reason that iI want to change is to maximalize regeneration because I think that's the key to grow without saa.


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## AestheticManlet (Jun 12, 2012)

Personally I don't think that's anywhere near enough volume especially over just 3 days (and definitely not 2 days)for building muscle, unless you have other goals?

To answer the original question between the 2 splits - push pull legs is the better choice. There is no point training shoulders with legs when you're hitting shoulders on chest and triceps day.

My opinion anyway for what it's worth.


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## lionheart1111 (Nov 22, 2017)

Ross but I thinking between push pull legs and upper lower, I don't do shoulders because I think like Mingster it's unnecessary. In my case, when I'm doing 5 sets the same weight rows or bench press my chest and back grows every week so I think 2 or 3 days splits are ok.


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## AestheticManlet (Jun 12, 2012)

lionheart1111 said:


> Ross but I thinking between push pull legs and upper lower, I don't do shoulders because I think like Mingster it's unnecessary. In my case, when I'm doing 5 sets the same weight rows or bench press the same weight my chest and back grows every week so I thinh 2 or 3 days splits are ok.


 Like I said it's just my opinion mate. There isn't enough volume there for me.

I like both push pull legs and upper lower. I prefer ppl at 6 days a week - not many people can train at that frequency but I did for a good while.

Upper lower can be ideal at 4 days a week.

Ideally hitting body parts twice a week in both routines, albeit ppl will be more "thorough" as in focusing on the specific muscles more.


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## lionheart1111 (Nov 22, 2017)

There is many ways to skin a cat.


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## AestheticManlet (Jun 12, 2012)

lionheart1111 said:


> There is many ways to skin a cat


 True but there are more efficient ways.

For example based on your exercise choice:

*Upper*

Flat bench 5x5

Rows 5x5

Pull-ups 3x8-10

dips 3x8-10

*Lower*

Squats - 5x5

? Deadlifts 2x5 or something

? Addition leg stuff / Calfs maybe

Upper lower off upper lower off off

Just improved your routine greatly and you'll hit the lifts twice a week with 3 days adequate rest.


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## Essex666 (May 24, 2017)

Everyone is different, and the truth is find something you enjoy, you will stick to it longer.

What worked best for me in terms of gains was actually power lifting, it blew the traditional bro splits out the water!

I truly believe the more strength you build, the better progression you will then make on hypertrophy.


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## Mingster (Mar 25, 2011)

I added 100lbs of mass training 3 times a week. You put the effort in, train intelligently, and that's easily enough work to get big and strong.


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## lionheart1111 (Nov 22, 2017)

Mingster what abaut my question- stick with ppl or change to upper lower?


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## AestheticManlet (Jun 12, 2012)

Mingster said:


> I added 100lbs of mass training 3 times a week. You put the effort in, train intelligently, and that's easily enough work to get big and strong.


 Don't doubt you mate I think 3 days could be good with enough volume but do you think for example bench press 5x5 and dips 5x5 once a week is adequate to develop chest and triceps well for example?

I could understand it for starting out to build a little strength and get form right on the big lifts but not really for a proper routine for size.

I wouldn't feel worked on that type of volume myself be done in 15-20 mins but suppose everyone is different.


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## Mingster (Mar 25, 2011)

lionheart1111 said:


> Mingster what abaut my question- stick with ppl or change to upper lower?


 They are both solid, proven systems. As you have started with P/P/L I would stick with it for now. 6 months is a reasonable time to evaluate the benefits of any system.


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## lionheart1111 (Nov 22, 2017)

Ok, I will do, but for the future- is bench press, dips, row and pull up (5x5) are not too much in one session?


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## Mingster (Mar 25, 2011)

Ross1991 said:


> Don't doubt you mate I think 3 days could be good with enough volume but do you think for example bench press 5x5 and dips 5x5 once a week is adequate to develop chest and triceps well for example?


 I do tbh. If you train progressively there's no reason why you couldn't Squat and Deadlift 250kg, and Bench 160kg using this approach. There will be very few people who could do that with underdeveloped muscles imo.



Ross1991 said:


> I could understand it for starting out to build a little strength and get form right on the big lifts but not really for a proper routine for size.


 At least 80% of my training history has been 3 day a week training, P/P/L with less than 15 sets a session.



Ross1991 said:


> I wouldn't feel worked on that type of volume myself be done in 15-20 mins but suppose everyone is different


 I understand what you're saying, but 'wouldn't feel worked' doesn't equate to being worked. If you Squat 3x5 with 200kg you would feel worked, believe me.

It's all about the weight. You can't lift heavy weights for long, whilst you can pump away with isolation work for ever.

Your ways obviously work for you and I'm not knocking them, but I suspect we have different goals at the end of the day. I have never sought a 'look' from my training. But, having said that, I would ask you how long have you trained with less volume compared to your higher volume approach? TBF you'll never know unless you compare them on a level playing field.


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## Mingster (Mar 25, 2011)

lionheart1111 said:


> Ok, I will do, but for the future- is bench press, dips, row and pull up (5x5) are not too much in one session?


 That's not the routine I suggested. That's an Upper session, not a Push or a Pull but both combined.

One exercise 5x5, 1 or two exercise 3x8-10, and a final exercise 2/3x10-15 would be more in line with what I suggested.


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## lionheart1111 (Nov 22, 2017)

No, that's not your suggestion, but I did couple training in 5x5 in all exercises and I really like it, and I think those 4 exercises are enought for my upper body at the moment if I will progress in them, so do you think that wouldn't be too much if I'll do them in one session?


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## Mingster (Mar 25, 2011)

lionheart1111 said:


> No, that's not your suggestion, but I did couple training in 5x5 in all exercises and I really like it, and I think those 4 exercises are enought for my upper body at the moment if I will progress in them, so do you think that wouldn't be too much if I'll do them in one session?


 It may not be initially, but as your weights increase over time you'll have to make adjustments.

The heavier you lift the less volume can be maintained. It;s a fine line, and it takes experience to get it right.


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## lionheart1111 (Nov 22, 2017)

So I will stay in ppl, thank you one more time.


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## nWo (Mar 25, 2014)

Just to throw in my 2p's worth, this is what my typical PPL would look like:

PUSH

Bench 5/3/1

Incline dumbbell bench 8-12 reps

Pec deck 12-15 reps

Arnold presses 6-10 reps

Cable laterals 10-15 reps

Skullcrushers 6-10 reps

Overhead cable extensions 10-15 reps

PULL

Deadlifts 5/3/1

Pulldowns 6-10 reps

V-grip cable rows 8-12 reps

Dumbbell Pendlay rows 8-12 reps

Barbell curls 6-10 reps

Rope curls 10-15 reps

LEGS

Squats 5/3/1

Leg press 8-12 reps

Leg extensions 15-20 reps

Leg curls 10-15 reps

Standing calf raises 10-15 reps

Seated calf raises 15-20 reps

Typically train every other day, or if you're on a set schedule then 3 days a week.


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## 19072 (Aug 11, 2010)

Here is my typical PPL - bear in mind as of right now leg day is up in the air due to knee pain 

Mon: pull

Deadlifts 5/3/1

Bent over rows 3x5

Weighted chins 3x12-15

Rear delts 3x12/15

Barbell curls 3x12-15

Wed: legs

Squats 5/3/1

SLDL 3x5

Thrusters 3x10-12

Leg curls &leg ext s/set 3xhigh reps

Calves

Fri: push

Bench press 5/3/1

Inc press 3x10

Military press 3x10

Lateral raises 3x12-15

Skullcrusher 3x10

Cgbp 3x8


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## Endomorph84 (Jan 21, 2016)

What are your increments (how much do you add each set) on the 5/3/1.

Examples please

@herc @I'mNotAPervert!


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## AestheticManlet (Jun 12, 2012)

Endomorph84 said:


> What are your increments (how much do you add each set) on the 5/3/1.
> 
> Examples please
> 
> @herc @I'mNotAPervert!


 Workout rough 1rm via calculator. Use 90% of this number for the base.

Week 1 65% x5, 75% x5, 85% x5 +(AMRAP

week 2 70% x3, 80% x3 90% x3 +(AMRAP)

week 3 75% x5, 85% x3, 95% x1+(AMRAP)

week 4 deload 40% x5, 50% x5, 60% x5

Program suggests you add around 5 pounds to bench and ohp iirc and 10 pounds to squats and deads but Personally I'd do the program first with your rough 1rm and get a new "proper" 1rm calculation from your heaviest set in wave 3 then restart with that as a base.

After that increasing by the increments may be more beneficial or you could keep banging in the 95% amrap and get a new 1rm.

Its a good program my lifts got quite respectable and I only ran it a few times. Ideal as you can add your usual hypertropy stuff after it. I'll come back to 531 at some point.


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## AestheticManlet (Jun 12, 2012)

Mingster said:


> I do tbh. If you train progressively there's no reason why you couldn't Squat and Deadlift 250kg, and Bench 160kg using this approach. There will be very few people who could do that with underdeveloped muscles imo.
> 
> At least 80% of my training history has been 3 day a week training, P/P/L with less than 15 sets a session.
> 
> ...


 Yeah that's true mate I train mainly for aesthetics, dabbled with strength routines like 531 but I've still had the hypertropy stuff behind it.

In terms of frequency only ever done 6 days ppl or 4 days u/l as for the volume per workout probably didn't really change.

I just got the feeling op was after aesthetics/size rather than strength


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## Endomorph84 (Jan 21, 2016)

Ross1991 said:


> +(AMRAP


 Cheers beast.

Is the AMRAP an additional set?


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## AestheticManlet (Jun 12, 2012)

Endomorph84 said:


> Cheers beast.
> 
> Is the AMRAP an additional set?


 No it's that last set for as many as possible so wave 1 it's 85% for at least 5 + however many you can do.


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## Mingster (Mar 25, 2011)

Ross1991 said:


> just got the feeling op was after aesthetics/size rather than strength


 Maybe he does. It's not particularly clear tbh. And, maybe, like most, he doesn't clearly understand what he wants as of yet. I'm not against your approach and, given the results you've achieved, you'd be mad to change now.

To me size comes from strength. And, ime, you can't build the strength to create the size without a fairly minimalistic training approach. But I come from a powerlifting background so it's natural I would approach this from that perspective.

I find most people, train far more than they actually need to, and I can never get my head around that. They would never work 5 days for 3 days pay.


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## AestheticManlet (Jun 12, 2012)

Mingster said:


> Maybe he does. It's not particularly clear tbh. And, maybe, like most, he doesn't clearly understand what he wants as of yet. I'm not against your approach and, given the results you've achieved, you'd be mad to change now.
> 
> To me size comes from strength. And, ime, you can't build the strength to create the size without a fairly minimalistic training approach. But I come from a powerlifting background so it's natural I would approach this from that perspective.
> 
> I find most people, train far more than they actually need to, and I can never get my head around that. They would never work 5 days for 3 days pay.


 That's true.

Yeah I've done both 6 days and 4 days a week and to be honest results don't seem any noticeably better from either.

My problem is the mental side especially when blasting and wanting to be in there most days.

Ive been doing 4 days a week with 531 also and just gone back to my old 6 day and it's killing me might have to stick to 4 days if it doesn't ease up haha.


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## Mingster (Mar 25, 2011)

Ross1991 said:


> My problem is the mental side especially when blasting and wanting to be in there most days.


 I ran a thread a few years back about this.

It seems that most people train the way they do not to optimize their results but for a variety of other reasons. The mental side, such as you suggest, the feeling that more is better, the feeling that training more often equates to a greater work ethic, the buzz they get from training, guilt over not training on days off, the social aspect - meeting mates etc, the chance of meeting fit girls, etc etc.

Now these are all valid reasons for going to the gym, but none of them actually improve results.


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## AestheticManlet (Jun 12, 2012)

Mingster said:


> I ran a thread a few years back about this.
> 
> It seems that most people train the way they do not to optimize their results but for a variety of other reasons. The mental side, such as you suggest, the feeling that more is better, the feeling that training more often equates to a greater work ethic, the buzz they get from training, guilt over not training on days off, the social aspect - meeting mates etc, the chance of meeting fit girls, etc etc.
> 
> Now these are all valid reasons for going to the gym, but none of them actually improve results.


 Haha yeah that's true mate I do know 6 days has worked for me as that's what I've done to get to where I am atm but thinking maybe I could have done 4 days with a better thought out routine and been just as fine if not better.

Head f**ks :thumbup1:


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## 19072 (Aug 11, 2010)

Endomorph84 said:


> What are your increments (how much do you add each set) on the 5/3/1.
> 
> Examples please
> 
> @herc @I'mNotAPervert!


 Here you go pal - read up on this. Find out what your 1RM is and go from there 

https://www.t-nation.com/workouts/531-how-to-build-pure-strength

*
5/3/1 by the Numbers
*

In 5/3/1, you're expected to train three or four days a week. Each workout is centered around one core lift - the parallel squat, bench press, deadlift, and standing shoulder press.

Each training cycle lasts four weeks, with these set-rep goals for each major lift:

Week 1   3 x 5
Week 2   3 x 3
Week 3   3 x 5, 3, 1
Week 4   Deload

Then you start the next cycle, using heavier weights on the core lifts. And that's where a seemingly simple system starts getting a little more complicated.

You aren't just picking a weight to lift five times or three times or one time per set. You're using a specific percentage of your one-rep max. And not your full 1RM. The calculations are based on 90% of it.

So if your 1RM in the bench press is 315 pounds, you use 285 (90%) as the base number for your training-weight calculations. Here's how it works:





Week 1

Week 2

Week 3

Week 4

Set 1

65% x 5

70% x 3

75% x 5

40% x 5

Set 2

75% x 5

80% x 3

85% x 3

50% x 5

Set 3

85% x 5+

90% x 3+

95% x 1+

60% x 5


When you see 5+, 3+, or 1+, that means you do the max reps you can manage with that weight, with the goal of setting a rep record in each workout.

Let's walk through the Week 1 workout for bench press. Using the example above, if your 1RM is 315, you calculate all your percentages from 90% of that max, or 285 pounds.

So you're using 185 (65% of 285) x 5, 215 x 5, and 240 or 245 x 5 or more. (In my 5/3/1 ebook, I provide detailed lists of weights and percentages so you don't have to carry a calculator with you to the gym.)

After you finish the first cycle, you add five pounds to your 1RM calculations for the two upper-body lifts and 10 pounds to your 1RM for the squat and deadlift.


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## nWo (Mar 25, 2014)

Endomorph84 said:


> What are your increments (how much do you add each set) on the 5/3/1.
> 
> Examples please
> 
> @herc @I'mNotAPervert!


 Covered above by Ross. As for whether I increase the weight by 1RM recalculation or in set increments, just go with whatever number is greater. So if the program says you should increase by 10lbs, but you punch in your week 3 AMRAP weight and reps into a calculator and your calculated 1RM has increased by 15lbs compared to the 1RM you used as a base for your weights on the cycle you just finished, then go with that instead.

Also note that Wendler says in his later books that you don't need to deload every 4 weeks - every 2nd cycle (so every 7 weeks) is fine.


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## AestheticManlet (Jun 12, 2012)

I'mNotAPervert! said:


> Covered above by Ross. As for whether I increase the weight by 1RM recalculation or in set increments, just go with whatever number is greater. So if the program says you should increase by 10lbs, but you punch in your week 3 AMRAP weight and reps into a calculator and your calculated 1RM has increased by 15lbs compared to the 1RM you used as a base for your weights on the cycle you just finished, then go with that instead.
> 
> Also note that Wendler says in his later books that you don't need to deload every 4 weeks - every 2nd cycle (so every 7 weeks) is fine.


 I never got around to deloading I think it's a mental thing


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## nWo (Mar 25, 2014)

Ross1991 said:


> I never got around to deloading I think it's a mental thing


 If the weights are still going up as they should then there's probably no need tbf :thumbup1:


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## AestheticManlet (Jun 12, 2012)

I'mNotAPervert! said:


> If the weights are still going up as they should then there's probably no need tbf :thumbup1:


 Yeah especially when blasting and using orals - dem constant strength gainz


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## Mr Wuppet (Mar 22, 2017)

Does anyone do a Lower/Upper/Rest/Legs/Push/Pull/Rest routine?

When I'm back in Glasgow from the beginning of January, I want to get back into lifting after a few months lay-off. I'm in two minds as to whether to follow Izzy Narvaez's PLTW novice program (3 days per week Squat 2x3-6, Paused Bench 3x3-6, Deadlift 1x3-6, plus 1 day GPP) and swim on my "rest" days, or follow some kind of PPL routine with higher reps & more exercises.

Do any of you guys with more experience recommend having certain days devoted to strength and others to hypertrophy (e.g., 3x6 Front squats & 2x6 Deadlifts on Lower Day, 10x10 Back squats on Leg Day, 4x8 Rack Pulls on Pull Day, etc.), or mixing strength and hypertrophy exercises on the same day (e.g., 3x6 Back squat & 4x8 SLDL on Lower Day, 5x5 Military Press & 3x10 Incline Dumbbell Press on Push Day, etc.)?

I swam a little this morning, not pushing myself that hard (just teaching my father a little bit), but I felt faint and dizzy in the showers afterwards! I felt better after getting a sugary drink inside me, but I definitely need to devote at least 2 days per week cardio.


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## AestheticManlet (Jun 12, 2012)

Mr Wuppet said:


> Does anyone do a Lower/Upper/Rest/Legs/Push/Pull/Rest routine?
> 
> When I'm back in Glasgow from the beginning of January, I want to get back into lifting after a few months lay-off. I'm in two minds as to whether to follow Izzy Narvaez's PLTW novice program (3 days per week Squat 2x3-6, Paused Bench 3x3-6, Deadlift 1x3-6, plus 1 day GPP) and swim on my "rest" days, or follow some kind of PPL routine with higher reps & more exercises.
> 
> ...


 I designed myself a 5 day routine ppl off ul off, but I decided against it.

Sticking to ppl myself up to 6 days a week, if I need a rest or still have doms for the muscles I'm training that day I'd just take an extra day off, not anal about hitting the exact 6 days in a week if I'm not up to it.

I like upper lower but my gripe is the fact that to me deadlifting is not a lower exercise. I used to squat and dead on lower day and upper day was bench and overhead press. But I prefer having deads on my Pull day, no doubt it hit legs but not half as hard as it hits back.


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## lionheart1111 (Nov 22, 2017)

Mingster what do you think about creatin?


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## Mingster (Mar 25, 2011)

lionheart1111 said:


> Mingster what do you think about creatin?


 Studies show it has benefits but it does nothing for me.


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## lionheart1111 (Nov 22, 2017)

And any other supplements/vitamins, do you feel and using something? The only one I using is zma, I can sleep all night after.


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## Mingster (Mar 25, 2011)

lionheart1111 said:


> And any other supplements/vitamins, do you feel and using something? The only one I using is zma, I can sleep all night after.


 I'm not a believer in supplements to aid my lifting.

All you need to do is lift the weights and eat the food. It's as simple as that.


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## lionheart1111 (Nov 22, 2017)

So so many people are brainwashed by this industry. Thanks again.


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## nWo (Mar 25, 2014)

Mr Wuppet said:


> Do any of you guys with more experience recommend having certain days devoted to strength and others to hypertrophy (e.g., 3x6 Front squats & 2x6 Deadlifts on Lower Day, 10x10 Back squats on Leg Day, 4x8 Rack Pulls on Pull Day, etc.), or mixing strength and hypertrophy exercises on the same day (e.g., 3x6 Back squat & 4x8 SLDL on Lower Day, 5x5 Military Press & 3x10 Incline Dumbbell Press on Push Day, etc.)?


 The upper/lower routine I posted on page 2 contains a mixture of both strength and hypertrophy work :thumbup1:


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## lionheart1111 (Nov 22, 2017)

Hello Mingster, I know that I was asking abaut it, but one more time- do you really think that we dont need any supplements or minerals, its not about muscle gain but general healt, what about zinc (I feel better sleep in my case), magnesium (I feel calm dawn ), vitamin d3 (so much talking abaut it that in our climate we all need it), omega 3 (so many studies show that it have positive benefits to pur healt), or its just marketing and good food is really enought?


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## Mingster (Mar 25, 2011)

lionheart1111 said:


> Hello Mingster, I know that I was asking abaut it, but one more time- do you really think that we dont need any supplements or minerals, its not about muscle gain but general healt, what about zins (I feel better sleep in my case), magnesium, vitamin d3 (so much talking abaut it that in our climate we all need it), omega 3 (so many studies show that it have positive benefits to pur healt), or its just marketing and good food is really enought?


 It's your decision. I take 5000iu Vit D with K2 and that's about it. A multi Vit/Min wouldn't hurt but it also wouldn't add much if you have a well balanced diet.


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## lionheart1111 (Nov 22, 2017)

If my max in rows is 70 kg for 8 reps, how should looks series?:

12x20

10x40

8x60

6x70

or

12x30

10x50

8x70

and in future 6x90?


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## lionheart1111 (Nov 22, 2017)

.


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## TITO (Nov 11, 2008)

Mingster said:


> I added 100lbs of mass training 3 times a week. You put the effort in, train intelligently, and that's easily enough work to get big and strong.


 What did your 3 x p/w routine look like?

I've not got time/motivation to be going 5 + times for a while


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## Mingster (Mar 25, 2011)

TITO said:


> What did your 3 x p/w routine look like?
> 
> I've not got time/motivation to be going 5 + times for a while


 I've posted this many times over the years...

Squat 5 sets 10,10,8,6,4 reps. SLDL 3x10. Calf Isolation 2-3x12-15.

Bench 5 sets 10,10,8,6,4 reps. Dips 3x10. Side Delts 2x12. Tricep Isolation 2-3x12-15.

Deads 5 sets 10,10,8,6,4. Chins 3x10. Rear Delts 2x12. Bicep isolation 2-3x12-15.


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## TITO (Nov 11, 2008)

Mingster said:


> I've posted this many times over the years...
> 
> Squat 5 sets 10,10,8,6,4 reps. SLDL 3x10. Calf Isolation 2-3x12-15.
> 
> ...


 Awesome mate back to basics. How come that rep range for the big 3? I was thinking of 5x5 but yours looks more in "hypertrophy" range (if that even exists) so as I'm more looking for size rather than strength may try that lol!


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## Mingster (Mar 25, 2011)

TITO said:


> Awesome mate back to basics. How come that rep range for the big 3? I was thinking of 5x5 but yours looks more in "hypertrophy" range (if that even exists) so as I'm more looking for size rather than strength may try that lol!


 The first three sets are primarily warm ups. The last two sets are the working sets. When I use this routine it's to progress my 4 rep set above all else, which is more in line with the powerlifting aspect. As the weights increase this set may drop down to triples, or even doubles, but the goal would be to eventually achieve 4 reps with that weight. IME I find that you shouldn't really be going into 1RM territory unless it's a competitive lift, so it's always good to save a little in the tank whilst training progressively for strength.The rest of the exercises are more in tune with hypertrophy and you could describe it as a kind of powerbuilding routine so to speak.


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## TITO (Nov 11, 2008)

Mingster said:


> The first three sets are primarily warm ups. The last two sets are the working sets. When I use this routine it's to progress my 4 rep set above all else, which is more in line with the powerlifting aspect. As the weights increase this set may drop down to triples, or even doubles, but the goal would be to eventually achieve 4 reps with that weight. IME I find that you shouldn't really be going into 1RM territory unless it's a competitive lift, so it's always good to save a little in the tank whilst training progressively for strength.The rest of the exercises are more in tune with hypertrophy and you could describe it as a kind of powerbuilding routine so to speak.


 That's awesome cheers mate and thank you for sharing your routine


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## Jack of blades (Apr 2, 2017)

Whole body workouts 3x a week is the way for me


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## delbo (Aug 17, 2014)

Mingster said:


> I've posted this many times over the years...
> 
> Squat 5 sets 10,10,8,6,4 reps. SLDL 3x10. Calf Isolation 2-3x12-15.
> 
> ...


 That seems pretty simple and looks to be working for you so it's obviously a solid routine. Do you think sticking to this routine and focusing on progressive overload for each exercise weekly is an efficient way to train?

Also how long do you typically spend in the gym using that routine?


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## Mingster (Mar 25, 2011)

delbo said:


> That seems pretty simple and looks to be working for you so it's obviously a solid routine. Do you think sticking to this routine and focusing on progressive overload for each exercise weekly is an efficient way to train?
> 
> Also how long do you typically spend in the gym using that routine?


 Yes, it's worked very well as a progressive routine for me.

I've used it for months on end. I would usually deload every 7th week and resume at 80% of my previous lifts for the big three.


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## delbo (Aug 17, 2014)

Mingster said:


> Yes, it's worked very well as a progressive routine for me.
> 
> I've used it for months on end. I would usually deload every 7th week and resume at 80% of my previous lifts for the big three.


 Never quite understood what a deload was. Just lowering the weight?


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## Mingster (Mar 25, 2011)

delbo said:


> Never quite understood what a deload was. Just lowering the weight?


 If you're starting from scratch or thereabouts you can just keep progressing your training over a long period.

As the weights become heavier this basic linear progression becomes more and more difficult, and this will eventually lead to sticking points when additional weight increases are next to impossible. You would introduce deloads at this point.

When I deload I do so for two cycles of the aforementioned programme i.e two sessions each for Squat, Bench, and Deads. I do three sets of 5 reps for each of the big lifts at 60% of the weight I was using for my four reps sets. I focus on lifting these lighter weights explosively with every rep. For the other lifts I would again use 60% of the weight for higher reps - 15 instead of 10, and 20 instead of 12-15.

Following that two cycle deload I would resume using 80% of my previous 4 rep max's on week 1, 85% on week 2, 90% on week 3, 95% on week 4, 100% on week 5, then better my previous bests on week 6. On week 7 I would repeat the whole process.

It's a slow but steady form of progression, but completely necessary imo, when the weights get to a certain level.


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## delbo (Aug 17, 2014)

Mingster said:


> If you're starting from scratch or thereabouts you can just keep progressing your training over a long period.
> 
> As the weights become heavier this basic linear progression becomes more and more difficult, and this will eventually lead to sticking points when additional weight increases are next to impossible. You would introduce deloads at this point.
> 
> ...


 Thanks for taking the time to explain that buddy. Do you essentially just have two working sets for the big lifts(the 6 rep set and the 4 rep set) and just focus on progressing those lifts and the previous sets aren't really monitored as much as you are using those as warm up sets?


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## Mingster (Mar 25, 2011)

delbo said:


> Thanks for taking the time to explain that buddy. Do you essentially just have two working sets for the big lifts(the 6 rep set and the 4 rep set) and just focus on progressing those lifts and the previous sets aren't really monitored as much as you are using those as warm up sets?


 Yep. You would use the first three sets as warm up for the final two. The first set may well remain unchanged for long periods whilst the second and third sets would be adjusted as the working sets weights increase.


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## delbo (Aug 17, 2014)

Mingster said:


> Yep. You would use the first three sets as warm up for the final two. The first set may well remain unchanged for long periods whilst the second and third sets would be adjusted as the working sets weights increase.


 Sorry to be a plague but how long do your sessions take on average?


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## Mingster (Mar 25, 2011)

delbo said:


> Sorry to be a plague but how long do your sessions take on average?


 It depends at which stage of the training cycle I am. At 80% I probably take about 40 minutes, at 100% or above more like 55 mins. No more than an hour in any case.


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## delbo (Aug 17, 2014)

Mingster said:


> It depends at which stage of the training cycle I am. At 80% I probably take about 40 minutes, at 100% or above more like 55 mins. No more than an hour in any case.


 What are your views on all these recent studies showing that it's more beneficial for a muscle to be trained twice per week for hypertrophy?


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## Mingster (Mar 25, 2011)

delbo said:


> What are your views on all these recent studies showing that it's more beneficial for a muscle to be trained twice per week for hypertrophy?


 I don't take much stock with studies tbh. We're all different. Try everything and find what works for you. Then stick with it. Consistency is the most important thing.


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## delbo (Aug 17, 2014)

Mingster said:


> I don't take much stock with studies tbh. We're all different. Try everything and find what works for you. Then stick with it. Consistency is the most important thing.


 Thanks mate you're very informative! Be interesting to know if many other guys on this forum are in your way of thinking when it comes to your 3 day , lower volume style of training as I was always under the impression that it really needed to be twice per week minimum or else high volume


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