# Flax, fish oils, or Udo's



## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

I thought I would post this up here due to some big players on the fat scene and some of us including myself are very opinionated on this very subject.

I myself choose fish oils for a number of reasons.

First I want to supplement only Omega 3's in my diet due to the fact that the typical American diet has too much Omega 6's compared to 3's

Perfect ratio would be 1/1 to 1/4

But the typical American diet is 1/10 to 1/25

This can lead to excessive AA in the body and cause a host of health issues.

Given the additon to insulin resistance the health aspect could be very bad.

So, for me, nothing beats fish oils for the price as I dont want to supplement Omega 6's and beings that Udo's has a blend of 3/6/9 fatty acids I am just looking for fish oils to do this.

Also due to Udo's having flax in it you take a big hit on conversion from that to Omega 3's, probably the ratio is around 1/10 being lost.

So with equal 3 to 6 fatty acids in Udo's and the fact flax needs to be converted and much is lost the ratio is not being helped much.

The omega 3 profile of fish oils blows flax and Udo's away.

We are talking supplimentation here.

I take 12 fish oils a day and will forever.


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## Nytol (Jul 16, 2005)

Fish oil, hands down.


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## toxictoffee (May 2, 2007)

Nytol said:


> Fish oil, fins down.


yep agree with that or NKO

awaits tony barnes with the defence of flax/UDOs


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## Bulldozer (Nov 24, 2006)

hackskii said:


> I take 12 fish oils a day and will forever.


Ditto


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## Five-O (May 21, 2006)

lol....you can hit me up with all this technical **** of this has too much of that and this doesn't convert to this....but....you can't teach an old dog new tricks.

Udo's and Flax for me thankyou very much.


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## Five-O (May 21, 2006)

toxictoffee said:


> yep agree with that or NKO
> 
> awaits tony barnes with the defence of flax/UDOs


Just as a quick question and no flame whatsoever, what would a protein/fat meal look like for you fellas then?


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## Bulldozer (Nov 24, 2006)

Five-O said:


> lol....you can hit me up with all this technical **** of this has too much of that and this doesn't convert to this....but....you can't teach an old dog new tricks.
> 
> Udo's and Flax for me thankyou very much.


Can see ya point mate, all this science stuff makes my head spin! It all seems a bit petty to me.

Ok, if you are at the top of the game looking, for that extra few % that could make the difference then sure thats fine. Go all out with the science part and look into things further. Cos you need the edge.

If your not at the top of the game, like 98% of the guys on this board then i cant see all these little things making much of a difference tbh.

For instance i cant play tennis for sh*t. Im useless. My racket cost £60 , so its a half decent racket! But if i ditched my rachet and spent £300 on a rachet, my tennis would still suck! If i was already very good at tennis then maybe a better rachet would improve my game. If you see my point.

Fish oil , flax, udo's. Does it make that much of a difference!? Really !?


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## toxictoffee (May 2, 2007)

if you supplenet a large amount of fish oil, off set it with vit e

s for the science?

well its fine to shun it based on not kjnwoing about it but thaty does not men it doesnt exist

]if we shunned science nobody would use gear, nobody would use creatine

why is it so popular? because in vivo studies show its benefits

as for the flax oil? it cannot convert from 18 to 20 and then to 22 chain carbons to produce DHA with any efficiency

you cannot argue on ignorance

pro/fat meals?

well for a start n3 fats will limit the insulin response compared to 6s

some AAs are insulinogenic and therefore counteract the point of taking carbs out of the meal

why split carbs and fat anyway, its only the saturation of the fat (degree of) which makes it an issue

the II in insulin response of the meal is the issue, not the macro breakdown


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## Bulldozer (Nov 24, 2006)

Napoleon Hill - "Knowledge is only potential power"

:rolleye11:rolleye11


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## toxictoffee (May 2, 2007)

if we all based debates on "IMO" and no logic or science then TBH there is little worth as its simply empty opinion

which point do you disagree with so we can address the issue?


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## Bulldozer (Nov 24, 2006)

I didnt say (miss quoted again) i disagree with anything.

I also didnt say i had no respect for science.

I simple said that i dont feel the need to overcomplicate things basically cos i feel it will make little difference.

As is the case here i feel .


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Well, there are numerous studies that reflect the goodness of fish oils.

So, for heart health then this is very important.

Inflammation?

Well, an up-stream way of aiding in inflammation is Omega 3's.

Also there are small hormonal substances made from Omega 3's and Omega 6's called eicasinoids, they act like hormones but without organs or glands to produce them.

They are very powerful and have all kinds of implications to aid in good health.

Fish oils will help with insulin resistance.

This is an awesome thing as you know that type II diabetes is aided by insulin resistance.

So, become more insulin sensitive, have less chance of diabetes, and let insulin which is the most anabolic substance be utilized better and more effecient.

Again having too much AA in the body along with insulin reisistance and you are in for trouble, fish oils help massive with this.

Lipid profiles?

Fish oils lower triglycerides big time and this will give you a better good chlosterol ratio to bad, again this is a step for positive health.

So, the implications are not really for bodybuilding but improving health and if I could only take one supplement it would be fish oils.

They are cheaper than flax too and Udo's


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

I started this debate for a reason, I have the best intentions here, maybe it is time to just step back and read some eh?

Id hate to have to close my own thread that will p1ss me off.

Stick to the topic.


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## toxictoffee (May 2, 2007)

> I simple said that i dont feel the need to overcomplicate things basically cos i feel it will make little difference.


yes but thats the debate

the debate is a complicated one

if the question was

"should i eat fat in my diet?"

and we babble on about delta 6 desaturase then fine, say its too anal BUT this debate is an anal one and is based on science, not just the basics

the debate is why fish oil is beter than flax and the answer being "because IMO its not an issue" is of limited worth

why does it make little difference? what are you basing your theory on seeing as its an advanced subject rather than just "should i consume MUFAs or PUFAs or SFAs?


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

With that ^^^^^^^I say Bump...............:rolleye11


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## Tinytom (Sep 16, 2005)

Currently I am having 100g of fats a day

40g from Udos

20g From EPA Fish OIls

rest from nuts and lecithin.

This works well for me. I like the addition of extra Fish Oils as a facilitator for fat loss.


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## Tony Barnes (Oct 8, 2004)

[rolls sleeves]

Right, as I'm pretty new to posting on this board, for full transparency I'll let you all know work for Savant - the UK importers of Udo's Choice.

Now, the next point is that you cannot directly compare Udo's Choice and Fish oils - there are fundamentally different in that Udo's provides the short chain omega 3's and 6's, LNA and LA, whilst fish oils provide the long chain omega 3 derivatives EPA and DHA. As the long chain derivatives cannot be converted back to the short chain parent EFAs, and there is little/no omega 6 in fish oil, they are clearly quite different to start with.

The effects are different too. LA and LNA are used intracellularly for structural roles in organelles, etc, and in membranes. EPA and DHA are predominantly used in membranes of nervous tissues. LA and LNA when use together can produce all 3 series of eicosanoids/prostaglandins following conversion. EPA/DHA can only contribute to series 3. Series 3 prostaglandins primary function is to prevent the release of series 2 prostaglandins from AA, which is why they have an anti-inflammatory effect. However, series 1 prostaglandins that come from DGLA, which requires LA or GLA in the diet, have many more roles in that field. The on-conversion of AA to series 2 prostaglandins is blocked/slowed by both series 1 and 3 prostaglandins - by preventing it's release from membranes.

So fish oils stop AA release and series 2 prostaglandin formation by promoting series 3 prostaglandin formation, whilst seed oils stop AA release/series 2 prostaglandin formation, and promote series 1 and 3 prostaglandin formation.

Conversion to lcPUFAS is an ugly stick that is waved around happily by anyone who wants to disprove the usefullness of seed oils. Conversion of LNA is in the region of 5-10% for EPA and 2-5% to DHA - more in women. Every paper I've seen conversion rates being calculated in are using a typical damaged omega 6 heavy diet (e.g. adding in canola oil/margarine/etc) - with ratios around 10:1 omega 6:3 often being used. As the short chain fatty acids all use the same enzymes for conversion, it's accepted that if you have a lot more of one, the other isn't going to have a great time of getting converted. If you pull the ratio of omega 6:3 closer to 1:1, then more LNA will get converted to the lcPUFAs - assuming that is the be all and end all. This is dependant on issues like availbility of co-factors such biotin, b vits, mins, etc; the issue of damaged fats blocking delta 4/5/6 desaturase; other factors such as alcohol; and then people with specific enzymatic blocks ~ 2% of the population.

Amounts-wise, well, some of the levels of fish oil intake I've been hearing of late are vast, and well above what the manufacturers say you need to use to get the benefit. Working with normal levels, a reccommendation of 15ml/25kg Udo's will cover long chain conversion using the lowest/most bleak figures available. EPA and DHA both block the conversion of LNA through to themselves in a negative feedback loop. If your body craved endless amounts of the latter, why would it have mechanisms in place to prevent the over production of it?

The concern over what happens to the ratios in a diet generally tend to not be based on actually working it out. e.g prior to adding Udos, Mr X has 1g of omega 3 and 20g of omega 6 in his normal diet. He then adds in 60ml of Udos. He now has 33g of omega 3 and 35g of omega 6 in his diet. i.e. it has shifted to being closer to 1:1. Following your example, sticking in 12g of fish oil, he would now have 13g (probably less, depends on the oils) of omega 3 and 20g of omega 6 - a ratio of 1:1.5.

The idea is that Udo's can be used as your only added fat source if that's what you chose, without running the risk of over-doing omega 3.

Regarding NKO Krill oil - it's good stuff. I actually use it myself. Before anyone jumps on me shouting hypocrite, there's 2 reasons:

1. I've always had an issue with dry skin/eczema, not horrific, but annoying at points. When I first started on Udo's it cleared all of it up, apart from 1 small patch on my left forearm that persisted. When we got some NKO in, I tried it and it cleared it up. This is an indication of a degree of blocking of conversion - whether it was diet/alcohol/genetic, dunno, as my diet and drinking have changed greatly over the last few years, and indeed the NKO may no longer be doing squat for my skin.

2. I've also got ankylosing spondylitis. The astaxanthin in NKO is a bloody brilliant anti-inflammatory, and great for people with arthritic conditions. It's also why I eat a lot of prawns/shrimp as they have it in them too (it's the reason they turn pink when cooked, as it unbinds from proteins). If it was possible, i'd probably eat flamingos too...

Anyways, the crux is, seed oils as a base so that you get the whole spread of benefits, and also energy, etc, and fish oils used as appropriate.


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## toxictoffee (May 2, 2007)

great post tony

will bump this for when you leave savant and focus a little more on the crux, EPA/DHA requirements that cannot be sourced in the diet unlike all other ingredients of UDOs

great post though mate, i shall respond to some more bits whe i get home later

bottom line?

NKO or EPA/DHA is ideally sourced in the diet and 90% of serious BBers diets do not include dmaged n6 fats = UDOs lot of money. little worth

ps tom, add 400iu of vit E every day if you are not

any how im off to see one of my inuit friends to sell him some UDOs based on Tonys post


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## Tony Barnes (Oct 8, 2004)

lol, cheers bud.

As you know we only got into the BB 'cos people were coming to us asking for sponsorship 

I do agree though, it's not a cheap way to do things, but it is an easy one, and the results can't be knocked.

One thing I forgot to add was I find it highly amusing/ironic that fish and now krill are seen to be the best suppliers of omega 3 lcpufas, when they don't even make it themselves. That crown goes to all the tiny planktons out there, doing their bit!!

Erm, yeah, Inuits... now, that's another story altogether - as I sure as hell wouldn't recommend Udo's to them.. (although it's noteworthy that whilst they don't die of certain diseases of society, they don't last very long. Sure I've got a list of "issues" they have somewhere)


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

LA deficiency is actually a bit rare, because our intake of LA has doubled during the last 50 years, due to increased intake of polyunsaturated oils, mainly corn and safflower.

If anything, our intake of LA is too high. Although it is essential to health, studies show that excessive consumption of LA promotes tumor growth and cancer.

LNA deficiency affects upwards of 95 percent of the population.

Our intake of LNA has decreased to one-sixth of the prevailing level in 1850.

While excess LA promotes tumor growth LNA inhibits it. LNA also inhibits tissue inflammation and increases metabolic rate and energy level, helping in weight loss.



Tony Barnes said:


> The concern over what happens to the ratios in a diet generally tend to not be based on actually working it out. e.g prior to adding Udos, Mr X has 1g of omega 3 and 20g of omega 6 in his normal diet. He then adds in 60ml of Udos. He now has 33g of omega 3 and 35g of omega 6 in his diet. i.e. it has shifted to being closer to 1:1. Following your example, sticking in 12g of fish oil, he would now have 13g (probably less, depends on the oils) of omega 3 and 20g of omega 6 - a ratio of 1:1.5.


Ok, I can see your point here but honestly it is skewed. Beings that Udo's uses flax as its main Omega 3, and flax needs to convert to Omega 3 at the ratio of about 1/10th the conversion so 90% of your equation is lost. Instead of 33 grams of Omega 3 in your Udo's you are actually getting just 3.3 grams of Omega 3's and still you are adding 35 grams of Omega 6's which toss the ratio much higher to around 12 to 1 or 4.3 grams of Omega 3 to 55 grams of Omega 6.

Again supplementing an Omega 6 to the diet that is already rich in Omega 6's seems reckless to me.

Again for eicosanoid production the ratio is between 1/1 to ¼.

One other thing, much of Udo's is seed oil, I buy peanuts, almonds, and have a avocado tree.

Why would I buy a processed seed oil when I can get the benefits of protein and carbohydrates along with the oils in the seeds in their natural state?

I don't think there is much concern for over doing Omega 3's, Eskimo diets are totally rich in Omega 3's and they have the lowest incidence of heart disease, stroke, hell even cavities, depression, you name it.

I feel the burden is really on the vegetable oil industry that adds Omega 6's to everything including potato chips.

I know we got started on this on the other debate but flax, and soy, is known to have a phytoestrogen in them.

Some men this weak estrogen can trigger gyno type conditions.

In others with more aromatization going on flax and soy do tend to act as an anti-estrogen.

As you know bodybuilding and estrogen are some concern for many.

Very lean guys will have low estrogen but still adding in some flax and soy could potentially elevate estrogen in their bodies.

Estrogen is about 200 times as suppressive as testosterone to the HPTA


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Sorry, I just have to post this up from one of my favorite posters that doesnt post here anymore, here goes:



ChefX said:


> Fish vs. Flax
> 
> The optimal intake of LA compared with ALA appears critical for the metabolism of omega-3 fatty acids. An increase in AA, EPA, and DHA leads to an increase in membrane fluidity, alters the structure of the membrane receptors, and can have other beneficial effects associated with the omega-3 fatty acids. They also play a role in the regulation of cell surface expression, cell-cell interactions, and cytokine release.10 A ratio of 1:4 (LA:ALA) or less is recommended for conversion of ALA to longer chain metabolites (EPA and DHA).9 This is an important concept for vegetarians, whose diets are often much richer in LA. The intake of 3 grams per day to 4 grams per day of ALA is equivalent to 0.3 grams per day of EPA with optimal elongation. (This means you need 10 times as much flax to get the same benefits as fish aka 120g of flax oil or an additional 1000 calories of flax in order to match the benefits of just 12g of fish oils aka 108 calories added... follow????)
> 
> ALA(from flax) does not appear to be comparable with its biological effects, compared with EPA and DHA found in fish oil. It appears that the EPA and DHA from marine oils are more rapidly incorporated into plasma and membrane lipids. Algae and some fungi are also capable of forming omega-3 fatty acids de novo, and the DHA from algae supplements needs to be explored further (as in teh whole food vitamins I reccomend follow???).


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## Tony Barnes (Oct 8, 2004)

?? You can't say that 90% of the omega 3 is lost because it's not EPA or DHA!!! The whole point about returning the ratios to closer to 1:1 is that the fatty acids compete for enzyme space down the whole elongation pathway. LNA (or ALA - sorry, different acronyms) is therefore plenty suitable to do the job. You are not altering the balance unfavourably by using flax or udos, by definition it pushes it closer to 1:1.

As for the other sources of omega 6 you've mentioned, as i've stated before, the whole point is to try and cut those out. Cooking oils, margarines, shortenings, etc, have all had the living crap kicked out of them by something like 9 different processing techniques. They are no longer healthy, and instead, give your body crap loads of damaged molecules that it now has to sort out. These damaged molecules screw up the conversion of EFAs by getting in the way of enzyme space - as you'll know enzyme inhibition is complicated, but the crux is that when molecules that are almost the right shape get in the way, things go to ****.

So once you've taken out the poor sources of omega 6 (cooking oils, "chips", cakes, biscuits, deep fried food), you are left with little in your diet. People who eat a lot of seeds and nuts will be different, and so long as they are eating raw ones, flax would make a more sensible addition to Udos, as they won't have as much a need for the omega 6..

I'm not sure how you've worked out the ratio bits - your numbers are off. 60ml of Udos will provide about 15g of omega 6, and about 30g of omega 3 (for simplicity I'm using 2:1:1 omega 3:6:9 ratios, otherwise head would be hurting this time in the morning...) - not 3g of omega 3 + 35g of omega 6.

Yes, Udo's is a seed oil, a very carefully made one at that. Expeller pressed in an light and oxygen free environment, below 50C. In these conditions the oils are bottled in nitrogen flushed amber glass that's then put in cardboard boxes and refrigerated. It is a million miles away from the cooking oils that you get on the shelf.

If people want to do as you do and source all their oils their own way, i applaud them - it's a good way to do things, but it is also more complicated. There is also the matters of whether people like the taste, are allergic, etc. It's akin to moaning if people want to use whey protein - IMO gold top milk is a better alternative with it's vitamins, fat, and caesin. Or vegans who use pea/soy/rice protein.

The inuits have actually been eating fish oils alone for so long, their entire physiology has changed. They don't have the enzymes required to process LNA to EPA/DHA, and their entire body is set up to work differently.

I agree that algal oils can be very good - Martec have a bonafide cold extraction process for their Life DHA - which is a good product. It's also fabulously expensive!

Regarding oestrogen effect - I reckon if it did this, then the guys we sponsor would have already said a thing or two. Rob Feesey gets down to crazy low BF, 3-4%, and he's never mentioned any oestrogenic effects.

It's something that needs researching, as it's very interesting, but from what I've seen in practice, it's not an issue. If you say it does trigger gyno in some men, I'd love to see this, as I have not come across it.

Final point - there was mention about the calories contained in flax. We always recommend that Udo's/flax is put in as an addition to daily calories. i.e. ignore it. The net result - the majority of people lose fat (there's always exceptions to any rule...). You can't just consider calories from EFAs as calories and nothing more when they have distinct metabolic effects. How much energy they give off when burned in a calorimeter is irrelevant.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

I understand your point so I will ask you some questions.

If Udo's has Omega 6 in there and the typical American diet has too much 6's and not enough 3's, can give me a good argument of adding in the extra 6's to my diet if it is already is too high?

So, gram for gram are you suggesting that flax gram for gram supplies the same amount of Usable Omega 3's?

Do you agree or disagree with this statement?

The intake of 3 grams per day to 4 grams per day of ALA is equivalent to 0.3 grams per day of EPA with optimal elongation.

If this is correct would it not take more flax to do the same job as fish oils?

And in the States flax is more expensive than fish oils.

Due to the conversion would I be adding in more calories in my diet regardless of metabolism?

Gram for gram would fish oils have the same capabilities for fat loss than flax?

If so why would I add more calories to my diet if I am already struggling to lower my bodyweight?

Flax and phytoestrogens is well known, this we can agree on.

Remember that the guy that is very lean will have less aromatase activity and adding in even a weak estrogen could be problematic.

You cant use this in your arguement

Rob Feesey gets down to crazy low BF, 3-4%, and he's never mentioned any oestrogenic effects.

I know many bodybuilders that take anti-estrogens during contest prep, and are on anabolics and androgenics, I bet rob is using some anti-estrogen so suggesting flax has no interferance with estrogen seems a bit biased.

There are studies that suggest that flax and nolvadex act the same on blocking estrogen sensitive breast tissue.

Nolvadex is a weak estrogen but it also is a agonist and antagonist to estrogen.

It acts like a estrogen to the prostate and that is not cool.

In your opinion could flax act as an agonist and antagonist to estrogen in men?

If so would you really suggest that a very lean guy that has little aromitization take flax over fish oils?

Why flax or Udo's over fish oils?


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## Tony Barnes (Oct 8, 2004)

I understand your point so I will ask you some questions.

If Udo's has Omega 6 in there and the typical American diet has too much 6's and not enough 3's, can give me a good argument of adding in the extra 6's to my diet if it is already is too high?

*
*

*
As per above, the idea is to remove the poor sources of omega 6 from the diet, and supplement with good, undamaged omega 6*

So, gram for gram are you suggesting that flax gram for gram supplies the same amount of Usable Omega 3's?

*
*

*
Depends on how you define the term useable. >97% of eaten LNA is absorbed into the body, of which roughly half is burned as fuel, the rest goes down other matabolic roles. I dno't know the stats for fish oils, but would assume it's similar*

Do you agree or disagree with this statement?

The intake of 3 grams per day to 4 grams per day of ALA is equivalent to 0.3 grams per day of EPA with optimal elongation.

*Yes - but the flax will also be doing stuff elsewhere*

If this is correct would it not take more flax to do the same job as fish oils?

And in the States flax is more expensive than fish oils.

*
*

*
Yes, it will take more flax to do the same roles as fish oils, however, it will also be covering other roles. The price comparison is true for the UK too.*

Due to the conversion would I be adding in more calories in my diet regardless of metabolism?

*Yes*

Gram for gram would fish oils have the same capabilities for fat loss than flax?

*
*

*
From what I can gather from PPAR activation, they will exert a similar effect, though LNA is a stronger promoter I think, will have to sieve through the studies (they made for a painful read on the train down to London, and the concurrent hotel stay last year...).*

*
*

*
* If so why would I add more calories to my diet if I am already struggling to lower my bodyweight?

*You're not "adding" calories in that respect. I would never recommend 12g of flax to be used as a meaningful amount. A meaningful amount is 15ml/25kg when using Udo's. At this level, taken in addition to normal diet, most people see weight fall off. It doesn't make much sense, but the thank-you emails I get from athletes we sponsor who do just that to get ripped for stage confirms it.*

Flax and phytoestrogens is well known, this we can agree on.

Remember that the guy that is very lean will have less aromatase activity and adding in even a weak estrogen could be problematic.

You cant use this in your arguement

Rob Feesey gets down to crazy low BF, 3-4%, and he's never mentioned any oestrogenic effects.

I know many bodybuilders that take anti-estrogens during contest prep, and are on anabolics and androgenics, I bet rob is using some anti-estrogen so suggesting flax has no interferance with estrogen seems a bit biased.

*
*

*
Rob is a natural for life athlete. We only sponsor natural athletes as first and foremost we are a health food company, and as such assisted athletes go against the grain of what we believe in. If we were simply a sports supplement company, things may be different. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to be able to, as we've had requests from some bloody high up guys, and it would make my job a million times easier having them promote it, but we had to make a decision on that early on. It doesn't take away our respect for what they achieve though! However, it does emphasise that proper diet and training can achieve amazing things. *

There are studies that suggest that flax and nolvadex act the same on blocking estrogen sensitive breast tissue.

Nolvadex is a weak estrogen but it also is a agonist and antagonist to estrogen.

It acts like a estrogen to the prostate and that is not cool.

*Do you have any links for that? Would be an interesting read*

In your opinion could flax act as an agonist and antagonist to estrogen in men?

*
*

*
I would suggest that it would work as partial agaonist - i.e. neither strongly promoting, nor blocking the binder. in this sense it would work as a oestrogen normaliser, the same in women. I'd love for someone to be able to prove this one way or the other, as I haven't seen any direct research.*

*
*

*
* If so would you really suggest that a very lean guy that has little aromitization take flax over fish oils?

*N/A*

Why flax or Udo's over fish oils? 

*
*

*
More overall benefits, undamged source of EFAs with lower oxidative damage potential (decent Vit E intake in diet will counter this at normal fish oil intake - megadosing is uncharted), doesn't leave anything out, caters for undamaged omega 6, and for those that are that way inclined it's vegan.*

*
*

*
*

*
*

*
*There are people for whom fish oil is needed, and then there is the majority for whom seed oils are fine. There is always going to be impllications of cost, ease of use, etc - but this is true of many foods, and indeed, most of life. All I can say is that Udo's is probably the most rigorously made nutritional oil out there, and given the amount of copies that have cropped up over the years, is a very popular and effective way to retain/enhance health.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

http://www.brinkzone.com/articledetails.php?acatid=6&aid=71

It does not show the study but makes refrence to it.

A leading TRT doctor here in the states suggests that men with alot of aromitization should use soy and flax in their diet to control estrogen.

But he recommends that men with low belly fat to avoid flax and soy.

There are many natural aromatase inhibitors that will lower estrogen like. chrysin, dessicated liver, tobacco, Diindolylmethane (DIM), cruciferous vegetables, Indole-3-carbinol (I3C) as examples and all are over the counter and do work.

So again if Rob is natural he has access to these during contest prep.

That would be kind of interesting.

I may add some flax to my diet just for GP


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## thestudbeast (Jul 20, 2007)

phytoestrogens are found in many fruit and vegtables it does'nt stop us eating them I think you'll find peanuts are full of them yet many do well on peanut butter. It's very easy to get the wrong end of the stick with the hormone system even if your a doctor. Flax undeniably does interact with more than one hormone in the body but it maybe a while before we see the whole picture. On a side note it's meant to bind to DHT making it unable to attach to the reseptors (so possibly help hairloss). Soy should not be mentioned in the same breath as flax as it's photoestogenic qualities are in fact it's only good ones, only fermented soy should be contimplated for consumption and then in small amounts.


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## andr0lic (Aug 20, 2007)

I've supplemented with omega-3's for almost ten years, and through first-hand experience I found this to be the accurate equation:

NKO>Cod Liver Oil>Fish oil>flax oil (for males at least)

Women have more of the enzyme necessary(which you all know I'm sure) to convert the alpha-linolenic acid in flax. As far as mufa's and pufa's, i'm not going to pretend i have advanced knowledge, but what i do have is exceptional intelligence and a rather objective critical nature.

The thing that many people who state scientific findings and fact verbatim forget is that sound anecdotal evidence may belie a more accurate truth than science currently has the comprehension of explaining. So while it is meritorious and often beneficial to state that scientific edict takes precedence over someone's opinion, when you have a few thousand someones of reasonable aptitude, it comes down to the proof on paper, and the proof in da puddin'.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Man, I love the direction of the posts here on the thread, oh man, I am in heaven learning and reasoning.

From personal experiance.

I take 12 fish oils a day and after 3 months I noticed that my urination and flow (p1ss) was much stronger. I was confused at this until I found something on the net that supported my assumptions.

First it is well known that fish oils aid in inflammation.

Second fish oils aid in PG1 and PG3 prostaglandin production.

With that said the most prostaglandins in the body reside in the prostate.

With fish oils anti-inflammation properties it made much sense that this was the reason as I did nothing diffrent.

So from personal experiance i love fish oils


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## andr0lic (Aug 20, 2007)

With regard to prostaglandin inhibition, I have noticed that when i supplement in excess of 6 or 7 grams of fish oil a day, I start to lose some of my size and fullness, especially post-workout, when Prostaglandin formation is so important. Over the years using and experimenting with many different doses of fish oil, I've found for me, that too much fish-oil is counter-intuitive to acheiving the desired anabolic state. My eyes don't lie, and the outcome is the same repeatedly whenever i dose too high on my Omega-3's. The correlation could be drawn with 100% pure cherry juice or ibuprofen. yes they will lower inflammation to a degree but if too much is administered, the decrease in prostaglandin activity then becomes deletrious. In contrast, no matter how much flax oil i have ever used, i've never encountered the reduced fullness and muscle-wasting effects as seen with high dose fish oil. let that be a testament to the inefficacy of flax oil as an omega-3 supplement.

I would bet that a lot of you out there who reduced your fish oil intake back to 6 or so grams a day would allow yourselves to reap the maximum benefits of its anti-inflammatory and hormonal optimizing effects.

-Andy Androlic


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## Nytol (Jul 16, 2005)

Excellent stuff!

I found Krill oil to be excellent.


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## andr0lic (Aug 20, 2007)

Nytol said:


> Excellent stuff!
> 
> I found Krill oil to be excellent.


 It is.

But I stress the NKO brand(not name brand, brand of sourced oil) as it has the highest amount of phospholipids(omega's) and NATURAL(not synthetic) astaxanthin(search this word on google and read up on it for 10 minutes). I guarantee you will want to try krill in favor is fish oil and once you switch you won't ever go back. I once had someone debate me that you need more than 1 or two grams a day of omega-3's for optimal function. I rebutted by asking him what would he rather take 500 milligrams of s isomer alpha-lipoic acid or 100 mgs. of potassium corrected R-isomer ALA? Why take more of a lesser effective substance? That's like gobbling primo tabs as opposed to just injecting a fraction of the amount with much better results overall.

ORAC(anti-oxidant potency rating):

fish oil:8

lycopene: 58

krill oil: 378

It's so potent, that if I take more than 2 grams per day(usually only take 1.5), I notice symptoms of the aforementioned high dose fish oil intake.

Excellent for breakouts too(as in a thing of the past) The difference between krill and fish oil is like comparing synthetic store-bought vitamin E to high-gamma mixed tocopherol E. Lights out, Game over.

-Andy


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## Tony Barnes (Oct 8, 2004)

hackskii said:


> Man, I love the direction of the posts here on the thread, oh man, I am in heaven learning and reasoning.
> 
> From personal experiance.
> 
> ...


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## Tony Barnes (Oct 8, 2004)

andr0lic said:


> With regard to prostaglandin inhibition, I have noticed that when i supplement in excess of 6 or 7 grams of fish oil a day, I start to lose some of my size and fullness, especially post-workout, when Prostaglandin formation is so important. Over the years using and experimenting with many different doses of fish oil, I've found for me, that too much fish-oil is counter-intuitive to acheiving the desired anabolic state. My eyes don't lie, and the outcome is the same repeatedly whenever i dose too high on my Omega-3's. The correlation could be drawn with 100% pure cherry juice or ibuprofen. yes they will lower inflammation to a degree but if too much is administered, the decrease in prostaglandin activity then becomes deletrious. In contrast, no matter how much flax oil i have ever used, i've never encountered the reduced fullness and muscle-wasting effects as seen with high dose fish oil. let that be a testament to the inefficacy of flax oil as an omega-3 supplement.
> 
> *
> When you are taking flax, you are also taking in LA (omega 6 parent EFA), which then promotes series 1, and potentially, series 2 prostaglandin formation. This will probably underline the difference you have mentioned, as opposed to flax being innefectual.*
> ...


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## Tony Barnes (Oct 8, 2004)

andr0lic said:


> It is.
> 
> But I stress the NKO brand(not name brand, brand of sourced oil) as it has the highest amount of phospholipids(omega's) and NATURAL(not synthetic) astaxanthin(search this word on google and read up on it for 10 minutes). I guarantee you will want to try krill in favor is fish oil and once you switch you won't ever go back. I once had someone debate me that you need more than 1 or two grams a day of omega-3's for optimal function. I rebutted by asking him what would he rather take 500 milligrams of s isomer alpha-lipoic acid or 100 mgs. of potassium corrected R-isomer ALA? Why take more of a lesser effective substance? That's like gobbling primo tabs as opposed to just injecting a fraction of the amount with much better results overall.
> 
> ...


Fully agree with this.


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## Nytol (Jul 16, 2005)

http://www.mercola.com/products/krill_oil.htm

This was the brand I used.


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## Tony Barnes (Oct 8, 2004)

Can't tell from that if it's NKO - uses their research, so would hope so. Is there a little NKO logo on the tub somewhere?


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## Nytol (Jul 16, 2005)

Yes it is NKO, nice to see it is available in the UK now though, even if it is more expensive,


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## Tony Barnes (Oct 8, 2004)

Yeah, although strictly speaking it's still illegal to sell in the UK, as it doesn't have European novel food status yet...

Should be sorted by end of September from what I hear, but some places are selling already.


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## anabolic lion (Aug 4, 2004)

is this the stuff ?

http://www.reflex-nutrition.com/sports_nutrition/healthier_living/document_107_6.php


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## Tony Barnes (Oct 8, 2004)

Yup


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

andr0lic said:


> With regard to prostaglandin inhibition, I have noticed that when i supplement in excess of 6 or 7 grams of fish oil a day, I start to lose some of my size and fullness, especially post-workout, when Prostaglandin formation is so important. Over the years using and experimenting with many different doses of fish oil, I've found for me, that too much fish-oil is counter-intuitive to acheiving the desired anabolic state. My eyes don't lie, and the outcome is the same repeatedly whenever i dose too high on my Omega-3's. The correlation could be drawn with 100% pure cherry juice or ibuprofen. yes they will lower inflammation to a degree but if too much is administered, the decrease in prostaglandin activity then becomes deletrious. In contrast, no matter how much flax oil i have ever used, i've never encountered the reduced fullness and muscle-wasting effects as seen with high dose fish oil. let that be a testament to the inefficacy of flax oil as an omega-3 supplement.
> 
> I would bet that a lot of you out there who reduced your fish oil intake back to 6 or so grams a day would allow yourselves to reap the maximum benefits of its anti-inflammatory and hormonal optimizing effects.
> 
> -Andy Androlic


Funny you should mention.

X-Faxtor comes to mind here.

Said to be anabolic due to its AA content

Not something I would want to do tho.

I hear you andy on anti-inflammatory drugs. My dog has double hip displasia and osteoarthritus.

I give her some very strong anti-inflammatory drug called Metacam.

I noticed she lost alot of her muscle in her hind quarters when I put her on that.

So, yes you are correct in the inflammatory responce to anabolisim.

I am surprised you figured that one out by youself, most people would never notice this.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Tony Barnes said:


> Omega 3 only makes series 3 - series 1 come from GLA in the omega 6 family


*My bad, It was something I read years ago, thanks for clearing that one up.*

Thanks Tony.

Fish oils will also decrease arachidonic acid formation and therefore also decrease PGE2 formation.


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## thestudbeast (Jul 20, 2007)

> X-Faxtor comes to mind here.
> 
> Said to be anabolic due to its AA content


I looked into this after reading many, many good logs on x-factor and decided against when looking into AA. The makers of x-factor suggest you don't take any omega 3 on it as it suppreses the inflamitory effect of AA. The call it the component of red meat that makes you grow but it seems to be more present in liver. I also saw AA linked to cancer? Well that was the end of my research into this product.

So Tony can I ask why you think AA is not a good idea supplemented? Is it for the reasons above or have I got the wrong end of the stick?


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## andr0lic (Aug 20, 2007)

Mercola is known to be overpriced from what I've read around the boards, and anyone who knows him, knows he is a snake(or so i hear).

Google: Source Naturals NKO. their product is the best IMO and is usually one of the cheapest krill around if sourced through the proper reseller.

The cheapest best source of NKO on the net though would have to be NOW's brand on BB.com. unfortunately this isnt an option for most of you because of the shipping, but they offer the same amount of NKO for about USD10 cheaper, so maybe int'l shipping would be moot. Most of my staples are from NOW because they are such a huge company(c-GMP certified), they have the buying power to cut everyone elses throat on prices with equal or better quality.

BTW, props to Tony for informing us of his affiliations.


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## andr0lic (Aug 20, 2007)

While I can't hang with Tony's technical savvy, I will say that I have always ascribed to the theory of taking your omegas seperately as they counteract one another(omega-9 is discluded). That is not to say that they cannot be absorbed at all if taken with the 6's, but why not be sure? We already take in so much 6 through so many food sources that it would seem prudent to take the 3 seperated by a period of hours. I always have and always will, but again, that's just me, and the relevance of me saying this is that udo's is blended oils, and that is a flawed formula for this reason alone.

An interesting thing I just learned six months ago, is that bioavailability of 3 is increased when taken with additional fat. A SMALL amount of butter is excellent as it has next to no 6's, as is ex. virgin olive oil as it is predominantly 9's which do not interfere with absorbtion rates. I always used to take my fish oil with a basically fatless meal as to avoid any decreased availability but now I take it with said fats at mealtime as this is a very delicate substance we're talking about, and we want to maximize its assimilation and utility in the body.

-Andy


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## Nytol (Jul 16, 2005)

andr0lic said:


> Mercola is known to be overpriced from what I've read around the boards, and anyone who knows him, knows he is a snake(or so i hear).
> 
> Google: Source Naturals NKO. their product is the best IMO and is usually one of the cheapest krill around if sourced through the proper reseller.
> 
> ...


Thanks mate, I'll have a look at them.

I've never heard anything bad said about Mercola, I find his site interesting.


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## Tony Barnes (Oct 8, 2004)

hackskii said:


> *My bad, It was something I read years ago, thanks for clearing that one up.*
> 
> Thanks Tony.
> 
> Fish oils will also decrease arachidonic acid formation and therefore also decrease PGE2 formation.


My understanding was their main mode of action is to prevent release of AA from membranes, such that it can't be used for series 2 prostaglandin formation. This is mediated by the series 3 prostaglandins


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## Tony Barnes (Oct 8, 2004)

thestudbeast said:


> I looked into this after reading many, many good logs on x-factor and decided against when looking into AA. The makers of x-factor suggest you don't take any omega 3 on it as it suppreses the inflamitory effect of AA. The call it the component of red meat that makes you grow but it seems to be more present in liver. I also saw AA linked to cancer? Well that was the end of my research into this product.
> 
> So Tony can I ask why you think AA is not a good idea supplemented? Is it for the reasons above or have I got the wrong end of the stick?


IMO to recommend supplementation with AA, at the same time as a reduction in omega 3 is bloody moronic.

If you want to set yourself up for inflammation, sure, go for it.

If you want your body to keep working for longer, don't.

It may well cause better growth - series 2 prostaglandins are indicated for their fight or flight benefits, i.e. making sure you don't die in a given scenario. It's possible they have a slightly longer burn effect in muscle growth, in order to power people away from a dodgy diet source, but this is hugely speculative on my part!!!

Remember, good red meat, that is grass fed, will have some omega 3 in it too - not massive amounts, but it's there.


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## Tony Barnes (Oct 8, 2004)

andr0lic said:


> While I can't hang with Tony's technical savvy, I will say that I have always ascribed to the theory of taking your omegas seperately as they counteract one another(omega-9 is discluded). That is not to say that they cannot be absorbed at all if taken with the 6's, but why not be sure? We already take in so much 6 through so many food sources that it would seem prudent to take the 3 seperated by a period of hours. I always have and always will, but again, that's just me, and the relevance of me saying this is that udo's is blended oils, and that is a flawed formula for this reason alone.
> 
> An interesting thing I just learned six months ago, is that bioavailability of 3 is increased when taken with additional fat. A SMALL amount of butter is excellent as it has next to no 6's, as is ex. virgin olive oil as it is predominantly 9's which do not interfere with absorbtion rates. I always used to take my fish oil with a basically fatless meal as to avoid any decreased availability but now I take it with said fats at mealtime as this is a very delicate substance we're talking about, and we want to maximize its assimilation and utility in the body.
> 
> -Andy


The logic of taking both at the same time, is that as they use the same enzymes for elongation and desaturisation, by balancing the amounts at intake, you get balanced amounts getting converted. By taking them seperatly, you could potentially get more net conversion (of both omega 3 and 6), however you would also be putting your body in a see-saw world of inflammation / anti-inflammation. It makes more sense to keep it as constant as possible, slightly favouring the anti-inflammation.

I haven't heard the increased bioavailability via co0ingestion with other fats. Omega 3's are absorbed at about 97% efficiency anyway (i.e. you'll **** about 3% out), and I don't think that the levels of other fats in the system at the time would affect the volume that get burned versus the amount that get sent off for other roles. I'd be interested in anything you have to read on that though.


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## Tony Barnes (Oct 8, 2004)

andr0lic said:


> Mercola is known to be overpriced from what I've read around the boards, and anyone who knows him, knows he is a snake(or so i hear).
> 
> *lol, I've heard some things about him in the past, personally I don't really rate a chunk of what he says*
> 
> ...


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