# Is there a God



## Ken Hutchinson (May 29, 2009)

In my opinion there is no way we all came from a so called primordial soup, there are over one million different animals,insects,fish, on the planet with different DNA, there is no way all these different creatures could possibly come from a handfull of amino acids, and mutate into so many different life forms.


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## Pancake (Oct 24, 2010)

"I don't understand how it happened, so God must have done it".


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## Uriel (Oct 14, 2008)

been done a few times on here mate. I'mnot going there again. IMO - no . were are all alone as far as it matters.

I'm an atheist......I'd reccommend as a starting point - everyone read Richard Dawkins - The God Delusion and Christopher Hitchins - God is Not Great


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## Guest (Jan 12, 2011)

Ken Hutchinson said:


> In my opinion there is no way we all came from a so called primordial soup, there are over one million different animals,insects,fish, on the planet with different DNA, there is no way all these different creatures could possibly come from a handfull of amino acids, and mutate into so many different life forms.


4 billion years is a long time for different species to evolve.


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## Jux (Jul 23, 2008)

Adaptive mutations utimately lead to new species. Organisms without these adaptions become extinct, those with; flourish.

It seems to me, personally that any abstract events that confuse us are put down to divine intervention and that god is both a vengeful yet forgiving entity. 

Don't get me wrong, the values most religions teach are what most of us should live by, but all to please some infinately wise bearded bloke? Not for me thanks.


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## ShaunMc (Apr 28, 2008)

Simple answer NO there is not ..... And I doubt there is a single person who can offer any evidence to prove the existence of a god ..... And before the god squad give the counter argument to offer proof he doesn't exist ..... Remember u can't offer proof of the non existence of something


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## Lostgeordie (Aug 2, 2006)

There is no evidence to support the existence of a God. There IS evidence to support evolution.

I don't really understand your point about diversity of life = God...

Watch "Religulous" by Bill Maher and search on your tube for "If you open your mind to much your brain will fall out" by Tim Minchin...

You will laugh and hopefully be enlightened.


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## Ken Hutchinson (May 29, 2009)

mikex101 said:


> 4 billion years is a long time for different species to evolve.


where do you 4 billion years from, because you read it somewhere, and do you believe everything you read, no one knows how old the earth is.


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## localeng (Nov 11, 2010)

doubt it, but im not going to close my mind to it completely


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## ShaunMc (Apr 28, 2008)

Ken Hutchinson said:


> where do you 4 billion years from, because you read it somewhere, and do you believe everything you read, no one knows how old the earth is.


Religion works on the basis that you believe everything u read


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## Ken Hutchinson (May 29, 2009)

Lostgeordie said:


> There is no evidence to support the existence of a God. There IS evidence to support evolution.
> 
> I don't really understand your point about diversity of life = God...
> 
> ...


Thats just it, there is no proof of evolution.


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## Ken Hutchinson (May 29, 2009)

ShaunMc said:


> Religion works on the basis that you believe everything u read


I dont go with the notion of God as in the bible, but i do think something, or someone, did create us


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## ShaunMc (Apr 28, 2008)

Ken Hutchinson said:


> Thats just it, there is no proof of evolution.


Where u been lately .. There is a wealth of evidence for evolution


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## Guest (Jan 12, 2011)

Ken Hutchinson said:


> where do you 4 billion years from, because you read it somewhere, and do you believe everything you read, no one knows how old the earth is.


Oldest fossil on record is near 4billion years old. Determined via carbon dating.

That means life on earth has been around for atleast that time.


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## MXD (Jan 23, 2008)

Look into out of place artefacts. Explain that for carbon dating. You accept the nature of the reality you are presented with. For all any of us know we are all a dream and I'm just the imagination of myself.. did anything happen before Conciousness developed?


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## Guest (Jan 12, 2011)

To add: nobody knows how old the earth is exactly. But id rather listen to modern science than a 2000 year old story.


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## MXD (Jan 23, 2008)

lmao, don't bring the bible into this. Step back and look at it objectively. No one mentioned a specific religion, just if there was a god..


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## Uriel (Oct 14, 2008)

IF there IS a GOD.......then he made us in his image.......and God is pefect.......so then we are perfect????

WHY in that case does tren make us better???


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## Guest (Jan 12, 2011)

MXD said:


> lmao, don't bring the bible into this. Step back and look at it objectively. No one mentioned a specific religion, just if there was a god..


True, i just think God = Bible.

I didnt however bring up creationism first. Which is a Christian belief isnt it?

Ill have a look at out of place artefacts. Never heard of them.


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## tempnatural (Jul 8, 2010)

the idea of a single being creating us all still makes me laugh as much as it did the first day i heard it.

i dont know what i believe, but evolution is more believable than a wizard looking guy making us all. ^^


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## Lostgeordie (Aug 2, 2006)

Ken Hutchinson said:


> Thats just it, there is no proof of evolution.


Wow that's a scary quote... there is massive proof of evolution. It is scientific fact backed up by literally thousands of examples.

Take the time to read and understand the evidence.


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## ShaunMc (Apr 28, 2008)

MXD said:


> Look into out of place artefacts. Explain that for carbon dating. You accept the nature of the reality you are presented with. For all any of us know we are all a dream and I'm just the imagination of myself.. did anything happen before Conciousness developed?


Good answer .... Perceived reality and physical reality are completly seperate therefore it does pose the question about the nature of existence of a planet devoid of conscious beings


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## 8103 (May 5, 2008)

If someone has a more fulfilling like because of their faith, I respect them for that

I come from a family of devout christians, though my sister and I stopped believing early teens.

For me, it just got to the point where I was going to youth group and we would open with a prayer etc, discuss ways in which god has helped us through our day bla bla bla and I thought to myself, this is all bullsh1t and I don't believe any of it. I was living a lie going to church, camps etc when in reality it was doing nothing for me.

I think everyone should respect what individuals choose to believe. I hate it when people take the p1ss out of religions. Afterall, religions outweigh atheists.

I do not agree with religions being pushy however. Mormons knocking on doors?! We don't knock on their doors!


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## CoffeeFiend (Aug 31, 2010)

Im an atheist to the core i believe there is no god, there never was and there never will be. What created the universe? Is a question that is devoid of meaning. The notion that there was at one point in time (fallicious already) 'nothing' is absurd. The anthropic principle states 'you cannot create something from nothing'. If there was at one point no universe and there now is this would defy the law. Something needs to exist therefore the universe has always been there as it is infinite in its apparent 'size'. God isnt necessary for existence, the universe simply is in existence and this is incapable of change.

You'll notice im always sticking up for religous types on here namely because people generalise the beliefs of a few nutjobs to everyone in that specific religion. Its my personal belief that religion is a psychological construct of the human mind, a defense mechanism in effect. By definition God cannot be called a delusion strictly as it has already been said theres 'evidence for and against God' - i personally dont think there is any for but thats just me.

Does it make people feel weak their a tiny finite collection of atoms floating around without purpose in a universe of infinite size and time? Yes ofcourse it does. Does it scare them? Ofcourse. God makes people feel better.

The notion of collective religion was in its first implementation a tool of social control. Many, many thousands of years ago employed to allow primitive societies and tribes to work together without killing one another.

Will end by saying i have a problem with religion but not with the people who practice it peacefully, i have friends of all religions and respect them all. Their religions teach them a lot of wonderful things but in some cases they teach them quite the opposite.


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## Dazzaemm2k7 (Aug 10, 2010)

is there a god

=

*NO *

!!!


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## Ken Hutchinson (May 29, 2009)

Lostgeordie said:


> Wow that's a scary quote... there is massive proof of evolution. It is scientific fact backed up by literally thousands of examples.
> 
> Take the time to read and understand the evidence.


http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Evolution%20Hoax/4000.htm

Evolution is just a theory.....Darwins theory or evolution......it's not a fact, ie it's a theory.


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## Team1 (Apr 3, 2008)

Ken Hutchinson said:


> In my opinion there is no way we all came from a so called primordial soup, there are over one million different animals,insects,fish, on the planet with different DNA, there is no way all these different creatures could possibly come from a handfull of amino acids, and mutate into so many different life forms.


I dont believe in and kind of deity as in the ones in Religions, but im not ruling out "something". Certainly not someone with a grey beard wagging his finger at us for nonsense.

Al the animals on earth can be traced back through each other and evolution is a proven fact. To suggest otherwise is just pure ignorance of the facts


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## powerhousepeter (Dec 4, 2010)

Im a JW and I obviously believe in god, but I never force my beliefs on anyone, as to most of the questions raise, you'd be surprised to know that all of them can be answered in the bible, but to be explained thru a forum post would be to difficult


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## cellaratt (Jul 16, 2008)

Do atheist believe in the Devil..?


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## Fatstuff (Mar 2, 2010)

I can't believe in this day and age people believe that we were created by the man in the sky! That Noah built an arc and fitted all the animals on it! That Jesus Rose from the dead! That ..... Fvck it can't be ****d...... No there is no god!


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## Fatstuff (Mar 2, 2010)

cellaratt said:


> Do atheist believe in the Devil..?


That would be a no


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## Lostgeordie (Aug 2, 2006)

Ken Hutchinson said:


> http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Evolution%20Hoax/4000.htm


Please tell me you're winding me up... what a load of utter fu(kin' rubbish!

They don't even understand the basic scientific principle...


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## Raptor (Feb 16, 2010)

Don't believe in "God" but there certainly were 'powers' that created our universe (one of many)

Its impossible to just 'appear'


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## Team1 (Apr 3, 2008)

Ken Hutchinson said:


> http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Evolution%20Hoax/4000.htm
> 
> Evolution is just a theory.....Darwins theory or evolution......it's not a fact, ie it's a theory.


There is loads of evidence. There is several methods of dating that are all accurate (accurate when workign in millions) and can be proven. Tha site is for idiots


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## Lostgeordie (Aug 2, 2006)

Team1 said:


> I dont believe in and kind of deity as in the ones in Religions, but im not ruling out "something". Certainly not someone with a grey beard wagging his finger at us for nonsense.
> 
> Al the animals on earth can be traced back through each other and evolution is a proven fact. To suggest otherwise is just pure ignorance of the facts


This is the correct scientific approach - a good scientist will not rule out the existence of a God but will state that there is no evidence to support the existence of a God. This is a fact.

The scientific principle that we use to question the universe around us is the most powerful asset we have.


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## Kerrse (Jan 5, 2011)

I don't believe any in any type of GOD but i do understand why some people feel the need to believe in something, this is fine as long as they don't try and push their views onto me.


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## Raptor (Feb 16, 2010)

Ken Hutchinson said:


> http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Evolution%20Hoax/4000.htm
> 
> Evolution is just a theory.....Darwins theory or evolution......it's not a fact, ie it's a theory.


"It was 6,000 years ago that Jesus Christ spoke the stars into existence. It was 6,000 years ago that Jesus spoke animals, fish, plants, and land into existence. And it was 6,000 years ago that God formed man out of the dust of the earth."

Whatever bible basher wrote that should be ashamed Ken, impossible im afraid we have artefacts and ancient civilisations dating long before then.... people delude themselves and just 'want to believe' this theory


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## Ken Hutchinson (May 29, 2009)

Lostgeordie said:


> Please tell me you're winding me up... what a load of utter fu(kin' rubbish!
> 
> They don't even understand the basic scientific principle...


That was just an example, ok a bad one at that i just picked at ramdom, but as said we do not know how old the earth is, but let us say it was 4/5 billion years old,why did it take so long to invent (the good stuff) all the great inventions have come about in the last two hundered years what was we doing for the first couple of billion.


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## IrishRaver (Feb 4, 2010)

There is no God. Some people need to believe in a higher power for guidance or whatever, weak minded I'd say. "Jesus gave me the power to get off drugs, to conceive, to become a better person or whatever" - no, you're to fickle to understand all you needed was the right motivation, and the fear of burning in hell is that boot up the **** you needed.


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## Team1 (Apr 3, 2008)

powerhousepeter said:


> Im a JW and I obviously believe in god, but I never force my beliefs on anyone, as to most of the questions raise, you'd be surprised to know that all of them can be answered in the bible, but to be explained thru a forum post would be to difficult


Yes mate if i remember correct JW's believe that only animals have evolved and god made humans pretty much as we are today in our current form.

Genius that is....


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## CoffeeFiend (Aug 31, 2010)

Ken Hutchinson said:


> That was just an example, ok a bad one at that i just picked at ramdom, but as said we do not know how old the earth is, but let us say it was 4/5 billion years old,why did it take so long to invent (the good stuff) all the great inventions have come about in the last two hundered years what was we doing for the first couple of billion.


Growth in knowledge, technology and understanding is exponential - that means it starts off very slow but speeds up. Basically.


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## cellaratt (Jul 16, 2008)

cellaratt said:


> Do atheist believe in the Devil..?





fatmanstan! said:


> That would be a no


There's to much evil in this world to ignore his existense IMHO......


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## Ken Hutchinson (May 29, 2009)

We only know what we are being told, by them in charge, who is to say we are all not living the Trueman show.


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## Team1 (Apr 3, 2008)

straughany10 said:


> My way of thinking is theres no harm in believing in him but if i didnt believe then what would happen if I pop my cloggs, turn up at the owld pearly gates and the big man is there with brian clough at his side, and he says i'm not allowed in cos i didnt believe, i couldnt take the look of contempt from cloughy.


Thats no real beleif buddy and wil end you in hell if there is a god as you need to have faith apparently

Thats called Pascals Wager. google that


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## 8103 (May 5, 2008)

IrishRaver said:


> There is no God. Some people need to believe in a higher power for guidance or whatever, weak minded I'd say. "Jesus gave me the power to get off drugs, to conceive, to become a better person or whatever" - no, you're to fickle to understand all you needed was the right motivation, and the fear of burning in hell is that boot up the **** you needed.


so over 60% of the population of the world are weak minded


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## powerhousepeter (Dec 4, 2010)

straughany10 said:


> On a different note, when a jehovas witness turns up at my nanas house she confuses them to fcuk, coversation goes like this:
> 
> Them: Can i just.....
> 
> ...


Adam and eve had loads of children, Cain and Abel married there sisters, that how they were able to have kids


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## Ken Hutchinson (May 29, 2009)

powerhousepeter said:


> Adam and eve had loads of children, Cain and Abel married there sisters, that how they were able to have kids


So whcih one was the ginger one lol


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## 2004mark (Oct 26, 2013)

Lostgeordie said:


> Wow that's a scary quote... there is massive proof of evolution. It is scientific fact backed up by literally thousands of examples.
> 
> Take the time to read and understand the evidence.


Ha, spot on. Species are adapting to new environments all the time, sometimes in the space of a few generations (their generations, not ours). Not only is there vast conclusive amounts of evidence of animals and plants evolving, it also happens in viruses... take the swine flu as and example we ALL know about, this is an evolution of the influenza virus (H1N1 strand), this is why vaccines and constantly needed to be developed to cope with these evolutions.

Humans have only been about for 50-200k years that is 25,000-100,000 times less than the approximate age of Earth, I think there has been more than an adequate time for evolution to happen.

Yes it's had to believe we have evolved from a single cell organism, but it's just as hard to get your head around how the single cell organism first came about, likewise so even the notion of just how long 4-5 billion years is.


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## Team1 (Apr 3, 2008)

Ken Hutchinson said:


> That was just an example, ok a bad one at that i just picked at ramdom, but as said we do not know how old the earth is, but let us say it was 4/5 billion years old,why did it take so long to invent (the good stuff) all the great inventions have come about in the last two hundered years what was we doing for the first couple of billion.


Its wellproven the evolution of the species on the planet to get us to this point. Well proven and we dont know how old the earth is exactly. we can only go on the oldest dated materials as proof and beyond that theory

To use a religious term..."seek and you shall find" Ken. Your ignorance pains me

Evolution takes millions of years. We as a species only started walking upright a milion or so ago if i remember correct


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## 8103 (May 5, 2008)

Lets flip the coin over... we've questioned evolution, how about questioning religious miracles

There are countless stories, videos, evidence of individuals who are bound to a wheelchair, yet a prayer is said and they can walk again..

How about exorcisms, you can't deny that something is going on there. Clearly possessed, and after the exorcism, they're ok..


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## Lostgeordie (Aug 2, 2006)

Ken Hutchinson said:


> That was just an example, ok a bad one at that i just picked at ramdom, but as said we do not know how old the earth is, but let us say it was 4/5 billion years old,why did it take so long to invent (the good stuff) all the great inventions have come about in the last two hundered years what was we doing for the first couple of billion.


I think there may be evidence of Devolution in this thread... 

Are you seriously asking that question... "what was we doing for the first couple of billion?"

I suppose the answer "Evolving from slime into extremely complex sentient beings" is not enough for you?


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## CoffeeFiend (Aug 31, 2010)

cellaratt said:


> There's to much evil in this world to ignore his existense IMHO......


The problem of evil is often sighted as existence God doesnt exist. To resolve this problem we must briefly assume he does exist (bahhh)

God = Omnibenevolence hes all good.. infinitely good

He made all of us in our finite complexity, but being finite we are not perfect. God could have made us into mindly automata therefore a perspective of good or neutrality. But in robbing people of their own free will God would have commited an evil in itself. God therefore had 2 choices:-

Let people have free will and watch evil seap into the world as the natural requisite of of being a finite being is choice of being good or bad..

Make people into mindless automata without free will - defy the principles of Gods omnibenevolence because he would have commited evil.

The first option God commits evil indirectly, the second he does it directly.

Now we can unassume he exists wee


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## Team1 (Apr 3, 2008)

crouchmagic said:


> so over 60% of the population of the world are weak minded


No mate. less than 50 percent now im afraid. non beievers, atheists and people of no religion now make up the majority in the UK and im sure that will continue to rise based on trends


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## IrishRaver (Feb 4, 2010)

cellaratt said:


> There's to much evil in this world to ignore his existense IMHO......


By that logic, you're saying all the good comes from God?

So when I do a good deed, it's actually God. I feel so insignificant.

When people do bad things, commit crimes, it's actually the devils fault! Get all those murderers and rapists out of jail, let's pin the devil!

My point of view is that it's pretty childish to believe in such monsters living in the sky or below the earth. It's hard for me to understand how I breathe the same air as these people who believe in such things.


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## laurie g (Nov 28, 2008)

there is no god. and thats that.No debate about it.


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## cellaratt (Jul 16, 2008)

You would think earth would be bored by now...I get bored after standing around for 15 minutes...


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## Ken Hutchinson (May 29, 2009)

2004mark said:


> Ha, spot on. Species are adapting to new environments all the time, sometimes in the space of a few generations (their generations, not ours). Not only is there vast conclusive amounts of evidence of animals and plants evolving, it also happens in viruses... take the swine flu as and example we ALL know about, this is an evolution of the influenza virus (H1N1 strand), this is why vaccines and constantly needed to be developed to cope with these evolutions.
> 
> Humans have only been about for 50-200k years that is 25,000-100,000 times less than the approximate age of Earth, I think there has been more than an adequate time for evolution to happen.
> 
> Yes it's had to believe we have evolved from a single cell organism, but it's just as hard to get your head around how the single cell organism first came about, likewise so even the notion of just how long 4-5 billion years is.


Why are there single cell organisms still around today, surely if they evolved there would be none left.


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## 8103 (May 5, 2008)




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## 8103 (May 5, 2008)

Team1 said:


> No mate. less than 50 percent now im afraid. non beievers, atheists and people of no religion now make up the majority in the UK and im sure that will continue to rise based on trends


Was just a quick google mate


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## IrishRaver (Feb 4, 2010)

crouchmagic said:


> so over 60% of the population of the world are weak minded


I guessed more.. but compared to people who understand that there is no higher power, yes weak minded in the sense that they cannot control their own actions alone, they need a push from God. No offence intended, I just have strong opinions on this subject as I was force fed Catholicism as a child. Literally shoved down my throat all this BS about God and religion.


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## Guest (Jan 12, 2011)

Ken Hutchinson said:


> Why are there single cell organisms still around today, surely if they evolved there would be none left.


Why? because they have no need.

Things only evolve and adapt to their surroundings when there is a need. Lack of food, change in environment, disease etc. If theres no change, they dont change.


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## Lostgeordie (Aug 2, 2006)

crouchmagic said:


> Lets flip the coin over... we've questioned evolution, how about questioning religious miracles
> 
> There are countless stories, videos, evidence of individuals who are bound to a wheelchair, yet a prayer is said and they can walk again..
> 
> How about exorcisms, you can't deny that something is going on there. Clearly possessed, and after the exorcism, they're ok..


There are some really interesting studies done on faith healing - the effects are, in every case, temporary.

In Africa after exorcism thy are not "OK" they are often de-limbed Torsos... all in the name of God...

Interesting point though - there are lots of studies debunking these things out there.

The temporal lobe (that which is responsible for Religion) has been proven to be stimulated by electrical charge... religious epiphanies are often linked to temporal lobe epilepsy.


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## MXD (Jan 23, 2008)

My statement of what I believe;

God

The Devil

Heaven and Hell (more specifically heavenly and hellish dementions).

Demonic and angelic beings existing close to but just out of fase with our demention.

Alien human interaction and interbreeding including alien intevention into our species.

We've specifically had over 50 different species of alien make contact with us.

The existence of a pre civilisation that existed very close and perhaps past our current technological development afew thousand years ago, covered by an extinction event.

Thats just me, but I really don't care what anyone else thinks really..


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## cellaratt (Jul 16, 2008)

IrishRaver said:


> By that logic, you're saying all the good comes from God?
> 
> So when I do a good deed, it's actually God. I feel so *insignificant*.
> 
> ...


Your one out of 6,852,472,823...That seems kinda insignificant...


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## Lostgeordie (Aug 2, 2006)

Ken Hutchinson said:


> Why are there single cell organisms still around today, surely if they evolved there would be none left.


Evolution doesn't mean "becoming more advanced" it simply means changing to better survive in their environment.

If there are no demands placed on the organism, why would it evolve?


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## Ken Hutchinson (May 29, 2009)

We are brain washed everyday, they dont like us asking questions, they shoot us down as nut jobs, if we dare think outside of the box, they treat us like little children, the truth is out there.


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## IrishRaver (Feb 4, 2010)

cellaratt said:


> Your one out of 6,852,472,823...That seems kinda insignificant...


If that's how you feel day to day mate I feel sorry for you, my glass is half full.


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## Fatstuff (Mar 2, 2010)

Ken Hutchinson said:


> Why are there single cell organisms still around today, surely if they evolved there would be none left.


Is that the best u can ask, do you really want people firing questions for proof that a bearded man could walk on water and turn water into wine and other fancy tricks! I'm not saying Jesus never existed btw I'm just saying he was the worlds first Paul Daniels! First ever conman to walk the planet, intelligent in his time surrounded by the weak minded, saw a niche in the market and capitalised!


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## CoffeeFiend (Aug 31, 2010)

Ken Hutchinson said:


> We are brain washed everyday, they dont like us asking questions, they shoot us down as nut jobs, if we dare think outside of the box, they treat us like little children, *the truth is out there.[/*QUOTE]
> 
> *Cues the X-files tune*


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## Ken Hutchinson (May 29, 2009)

fatmanstan! said:


> Is that the best u can ask, do you really want people firing questions for proof that a bearded man could walk on water and turn water into wine and other fancy tricks! I'm not saying Jesus never existed btw I'm just saying he was the worlds first Paul Daniels! First ever conman to walk the planet, intelligent in his time surrounded by the weak minded, saw a niche in the market and capitalised!


I'm not talking about God as in the bible


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## Team1 (Apr 3, 2008)

Ken Hutchinson said:


> Why are there single cell organisms still around today, surely if they evolved there would be none left.


It woul take too much here to explain the way evolution works

The reason there is singe cell organisms is because they work in their environment.

People make the same mistake....well if we evolved from monkeys why is there still monkeys......we didnt evolve from monkeys. us and monkeys evolved from an ape like creature or a "common ancestor". we mutated and started walking upriht thus becoming a successful species and monkeys evolved into their form (eventually) into a species that is also a success

hope that helps


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## Raptor (Feb 16, 2010)

cellaratt said:


> Your one out of 6,852,472,823...That seems kinda insignificant...


Doesn't stop me from living my life to the full, im not gonna stay in thinking:

"well i'll be boring now but all is ok because i'll spend all eternity with god in paradise in about 50 years"


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## Lostgeordie (Aug 2, 2006)

Ken Hutchinson said:


> We are brain washed everyday, they dont like us asking questions, they shoot us down as nut jobs, if we dare think outside of the box, they treat us like little children, the truth is out there.


Yeah cos religion is not like that AT ALL! PMSL!


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## 2004mark (Oct 26, 2013)

Ken Hutchinson said:


> We only know what we are being told, by them in charge, who is to say we are all not living the Trueman show.


So every university, lab and government organisation across the whole world that study our planet, space and animals have some how (in the past, present and future) have, and will continue to, conspire against 'God' to make us all believe something that isn't true... seriously!


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## Andrew Jacks (Sep 29, 2010)

Is god human; no, but something created all this or do some people think this is a very elaborate carbuncle, lets just be honest and accept we have not reached an intellectual level where we can explain the chicken and egg let alone the dilemma of if there is a creator who created the creator.

I often wonder if everything was created by us all and until we die we blank out the truth, fcuk too deep


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## cellaratt (Jul 16, 2008)

IrishRaver said:


> If that's how you feel day to day mate I feel sorry for you, my glass is half full.


No need to feel sorry for me...GOD has blessed me in many ways...My glass is always full...  ...


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## Raptor (Feb 16, 2010)

What about steroid use? Were playing god with our genetics?

Surely he won't like that


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## Smitch (Dec 29, 2008)

Well i'm agnostic.

Prove god exists and i'll believe it.

Tell me one thing he has actually helped you with that you have physical evidence of and i'll convert. And don't give me all this 'well i believe' or'i have faith, i just know' nonsense.

Nope? Didn't think so....


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## IrishRaver (Feb 4, 2010)

The Raptor said:


> What about steroid use? Were playing god with our genetics?
> 
> Surely he won't like that


He also hates it when you masturbate. He hates it when you have sex for pleasure. He hates those naughty thoughts we have when we look at Raptors avi 

Bit of a killjoy, eh?


----------



## micreed (Sep 9, 2008)

and we are only here by accident ...mamales were around with dinosaurs but didnt evolve much just small shew like things ...dinos ruled earth mammles only evolved when dinos were wiped out by meteor strike thus letting mammles evolve and fill the void ...so we are actualy a accident...


----------



## jimmy89 (Jan 7, 2011)

my theory is either god created or aliens


----------



## 8103 (May 5, 2008)

Lust is a sin

Can you tell me that a lot of christian men have never looked at a girl and thought, 'damn I'd tap that'

tut tut you dirty buggers!


----------



## Ken Hutchinson (May 29, 2009)

jimmy89 said:


> my theory is either god created or aliens


Welcome to the forum Jimmy, and well said lol


----------



## CoffeeFiend (Aug 31, 2010)

crouchmagic said:


> Lust is a sin
> 
> Can you tell me that a lot of christian men have never looked at a girl and thought, 'damn I'd tap that'
> 
> tut tut you dirty buggers!


Next you'll be implying Catholic priests fiddle with little boys mate.

Hang on a minute...


----------



## ShaunMc (Apr 28, 2008)

what people forget is that science doesnt claim to prove anything it just offers explanations based upon evidence and observations , those who believe in god have a belief which is not based upon any evidence therefore it offers a much weaker explanation

Science doesnt look to benefit from its explanations only to present evidence and possible reasons for that evidence being present ...... The belief in god is linked to religion which is based upon controlling large groups of people into thinking a certain way


----------



## Team1 (Apr 3, 2008)

Ken Hutchinson said:


> Welcome to the forum Jimmy, and well said lol


Hang on Ken so do you believe that we were created as in we were created in our current human form?


----------



## 8103 (May 5, 2008)

CoffeeFiend said:


> Next you'll be implying Catholic priests fiddle with little boys mate.
> 
> Hang on a minute...


I remember when I was younger, in a youth group, the topic was about sins. The woman leading it was saying whatever sin, whether its theft, murder, lust, adultery, all as bad as each other. So if you lust, it is on the same par as murder in gods eyes.

That led me to sh1t myself, as I used to have a cheeky toss to porn daily! lol


----------



## 2004mark (Oct 26, 2013)

The Raptor said:


> What about steroid use? Were playing god with our genetics?
> 
> Surely he won't like that


Good point, although steroid use doesn't play with our genetices, however genetic modification (GM) does... as does breading animals.

If you think about it, evolution in humans has now stopped. It's no longer survival of the fittest as any runt with an IQ of 65 can now bread successfully in the western world in our current environment/culture, where even 60years ago they would probably not have survived themselves, never mind their children. So in effect the human race will start to devolve... that is where IMO genetic modification will take over to push us forward.


----------



## Smitch (Dec 29, 2008)

ShaunMc said:


> what people forget is that science doesnt claim to prove anything it just offers explanations based upon evidence and observations , those who believe in god have a belief which is not based upon any evidence therefore it offers a much weaker explanation
> 
> Science doesnt look to benefit from its explanations only to present evidence and possible reasons for that evidence being present ...... The belief in god is linked to religion which is based upon controlling large groups of people into thinking a certain way


Science actually tries to dispove stuff until there is evidence to support it, not just come to conclusions through blind faith.


----------



## jimmy89 (Jan 7, 2011)

how can you possibly believe dna came from a bunch of amino acids, its not possible it has no brain it cant develop, we were cleary designed by a higher force, or to an extent the first intelligent lifeforms were which then began evolving

definatley god or aliens

check out the egyptions there technology was way ahead of their time it would be extremely difficult even by todays standards to build the pyamids as they are now and have them stand for so long, there is a big theory of them worshipping aliens/gods

just my view anyhow doesnt really matter we will all die one day and find out


----------



## CoffeeFiend (Aug 31, 2010)

crouchmagic said:


> I remember when I was younger, in a youth group, the topic was about sins. The woman leading it was saying whatever sin, whether its theft, murder, lust, adultery, all as bad as each other. So if you lust, it is on the same par as murder in gods eyes.
> 
> That led me to sh1t myself, as I used to have a cheeky toss to porn daily! lol


You heard it here fellas..

Drowning 400 kittens

Having a [email protected]

Equally as evil, funny how you cant get locked up for having a quick jack off isnt it lol


----------



## coflex (May 10, 2010)

Lostgeordie said:


> There is no evidence to support the existence of a God. * There IS evidence to support evolution.*
> 
> I don't really understand your point about diversity of life = God...
> 
> ...


the evolution theory has got so many holes in it, that is why it is STILL a theory and unprovable.

if evolution was the way of things, then why aren't there half developed man/monkeys walking around???


----------



## Ken Hutchinson (May 29, 2009)

Team1 said:


> Hang on Ken so do you believe that we were created as in we were created in our current human form?


Yes i do, i believe we have not changed we are what we are, and who or what made us, made us as we are now.


----------



## MXD (Jan 23, 2008)

Neither Idea, evolution or the existence of god doesn't have to be mutually exclusive at all..


----------



## Team1 (Apr 3, 2008)

coflex said:


> the evolution theory has got so many holes in it, that is why it is STILL a theory and unprovable.
> 
> if evolution was the way of things, then why aren't there half developed man/monkeys walking around???


Care to tell us of some of these holes? Evolution isnt a "theory" as you put it its a fact.


----------



## CoffeeFiend (Aug 31, 2010)

coflex said:


> the evolution theory has got so many holes in it, that is why it is STILL a theory and unprovable.
> 
> if evolution was the way of things, then why aren't there half developed man/monkeys walking around???


Er what would you call Sylvestor Stallione mate?


----------



## ShaunMc (Apr 28, 2008)

Ken Hutchinson said:


> Yes i do, i believe we have not changed we are what we are, and who or what made us, made us as we are now.


ken please keep posting as it strengthens the science argument more and more lol


----------



## Team1 (Apr 3, 2008)

Ken Hutchinson said:


> Yes i do, i believe we have not changed we are what we are, and who or what made us, made us as we are now.


Honestly mate. thats totally insane. If you look at al the evidence and search for the truth then you might be able to shake off that nonsense


----------



## Ken Hutchinson (May 29, 2009)

ShaunMc said:


> ken please keep posting as it strengthens the science argument more and more lol


I'm out my head is spinning lol.


----------



## CoffeeFiend (Aug 31, 2010)

Ken Hutchinson said:


> I'm out my head is spinning lol.


Lol wimp, im missing a lecture for this, this sh!t is hillarious


----------



## 2004mark (Oct 26, 2013)

coflex said:


> the evolution theory has got so many holes in it, that is why it is STILL a theory and unprovable.
> 
> if evolution was the way of things, then why aren't there half developed man/monkeys walking around???


You've only got to look into the Biological Classification system and how all organisms fit into it's taxonomic ranks to understand evolution.


----------



## jimmy89 (Jan 7, 2011)

tbh who knows what will be discovered in the next 1000 years as technology advances

they do say we only use a small portion of our brain power


----------



## Guest (Jan 12, 2011)

jimmy89 said:


> how can you possibly believe dna came from a bunch of amino acids,


And aliens and or some invisable being thats never been seen before or since coming down and planting it is a more believable option?


----------



## Team1 (Apr 3, 2008)

Would it be fair to say that people who believe we were created as we are today are either

Ignorant to the FACTS

Brainwashed

Happy in their faith

just plain thick as pigs

Must be summit like that because its as much a fact that we did NOT get created by a god as we are today as it is that Dale Winton like it up the ars3 and sleeps in a sunbed


----------



## rs007 (May 28, 2007)

Put very simply, science leads to most being arrogant, blinkered.

Not all that can be measured, matters - and not all that matters can be measured.

It really is as simple as that.

Science is good inside its box, using its measuring variables - outside that it is useless.


----------



## cellaratt (Jul 16, 2008)

Team1 said:


> Would it be fair to say that people who believe we were created as we are today are either
> 
> Ignorant to the FACTS
> 
> ...


This...other than that your post seem's kinda rude...Why all the hostility..?


----------



## Team1 (Apr 3, 2008)

cellaratt said:


> This...other than that your post seem's kinda rude...Why all the hostility..?


Thjats totally fair enough. I can understand that. I just find it really frustration when people who believe that try to justify it with nonsense. If its a faith thing and thats it then who can argue with that

I find it incredibly frustrating and i have issue with "creationists". theres too many of them and they need resisting to avoid us ever having the scenario where its taught in schools as valid science along with evolution


----------



## rs007 (May 28, 2007)

Its been said that Satans best trick was convincing the world that he doesn't exist.

Perhaps thats nonsense?

Perhaps his best trick was providing a convincing distraction that our simple brains would more happily accept, to make us believe God does not exist?

Everything around us could be BS.

Not saying I believe any of that, but my mind is entirely open, and that the way ah ha ah ha I like it


----------



## MXD (Jan 23, 2008)

Yeah Rab you need to get abit of Rc's Wide on me thinks :lol:


----------



## Gee-bol (Jul 2, 2009)

religious people always claim we had to be created because we couldnt just spark into life,ok then....who created god and surely he would of also needed a creater,then what about gods creater someone must of created him cos its impossible just to spring into life,right?


----------



## Team1 (Apr 3, 2008)

rs007 said:


> Its been said that Satans best trick was convincing the world that he doesn't exist.
> 
> Perhaps thats nonsense?
> 
> ...


Very poetic Today :lol:

I used to be (even more) of a tool but now i suppose its fair to say when you rally think aout it you cant rule greater powers out


----------



## jimmy89 (Jan 7, 2011)

mikex101 said:


> And aliens and or some invisable being thats never been seen before or since coming down and planting it is a more believable option?


the universe is huge more chance of being intelligent life than us than us evolving

and if you do believe in evoloution then there is going to be other intelligent life out there isnt there because it must have evolved just like we did


----------



## Team1 (Apr 3, 2008)

MXD said:


> Yeah Rab you need to get abit of Rc's Wide on me thinks :lol:


Dont get you mate? RC's wide on?


----------



## rs007 (May 28, 2007)

jimmy89 said:


> the universe is huge more chance of being intelligent life than us than us evolving
> 
> and if you do believe in evoloution then there is going to be other intelligent life out there isnt there because it must have evolved just like we did


You raise an interesting contradiction - I see people all the time (on here and real life) saying "nope, deffo no god" but then stating with absolute confidence that we are alone in the universe.

Contradiction? I mean thats like saying you don't believe in god because that infers we are special, but you believe we are alone in the VAST universe, which also kinda infers we are special?

:lol:

Simple fact is, not one of us can say with any certainty - even science can't as I think someone already implied - what started this all off or who.

Maybe it was never started at all? As finite beings (bodily at least, that much we know), the concept of being finite is ingrained into us. I don't think we are equipped to truly comprehend infinity. Maybe life has always just been here. Wasn't created, was just there. Most folks can't take on board that simple thought - the old BIOS programming quips back in - "but SOMETHING must have created life"

Maybe not?


----------



## Guest (Jan 12, 2011)

jimmy89 said:


> the universe is huge more chance of being intelligent life than us than us evolving


Where did the other intelligent life come from? see where im going with this?

Maybe there is life on other planets, Id be very surprised if there wasnt, however, Life on this planet (any life) is such a freak confidence thats the chances of it happening once are so minute, i dont even want to think about it happening twice.


----------



## rs007 (May 28, 2007)

Team1 said:


> Very poetic Today :lol:
> 
> I used to be (even more) of a tool but now i suppose its fair to say when you rally think aout it you cant rule greater powers out


Poetic? Better than pathetic which is my usual form :lol:

Thats my point, you can't rule anything out, and you can't really prove it all anyway - yet you do see people drawing firm lines in there belief system whatever that might be (we all believe something). Its like a coping mechanism. It comes over kinda arrogant - although I'm sure that isn't the intention.

But thinking openly, I think is a useful exercise.


----------



## Team1 (Apr 3, 2008)

You cant rule anything out unless you can firmly prove it otherwise...ie....i can prove you like ginger cock up your **** because i seen you get pumped by weeman and i video'd it for my later self satisfaction.

Brings me to the point that life on other planets cant be proven right now but its is very probable. There will be plenty planets which are within the "goldielocks" zone like earthin the universe so its probable that life has developed elsewhere too. Maybe not as advanced as us, maybe more. We cant say for sure, we can only make educated guesses on it

Evolution however we can prove as firmly as your bum and ginger cock being as one


----------



## Gee-bol (Jul 2, 2009)

science cant disprove the existance of god 100% but 99.99% is more than good enough for me ;-)


----------



## jimmy89 (Jan 7, 2011)

rs007 said:


> You raise an interesting contradiction - I see people all the time (on here and real life) saying "nope, deffo no god" but then stating with absolute confidence that we are alone in the universe.
> 
> Contradiction? I mean thats like saying you don't believe in god because that infers we are special, but you believe we are alone in the VAST universe, which also kinda infers we are special?
> 
> ...


very very true


----------



## jimmy89 (Jan 7, 2011)

mikex101 said:


> Where did the other intelligent life come from? see where im going with this?
> 
> Maybe there is life on other planets, Id be very surprised if there wasnt, however, Life on this planet (any life) is such a freak confidence thats the chances of it happening once are so minute, i dont even want to think about it happening twice.


i see what you mean but i just think, if we evolved from amino acids as believed, then other planets must have life also

its true though what you say where did god or aliens come from, where did eveyrthing come from :confused1:


----------



## Mikazagreat (Apr 10, 2009)

The endless thread.


----------



## rs007 (May 28, 2007)

Team1 said:


> You cant rule anything out unless you can firmly prove it otherwise...ie....i can prove you like ginger cock up your **** because i seen you get pumped by weeman and i video'd it for my later self satisfaction.
> 
> Brings me to the point that life on other planets cant be proven right now but its is very probable. There will be plenty planets which are within the "goldielocks" zone like earthin the universe so its probable that life has developed elsewhere too. Maybe not as advanced as us, maybe more. We cant say for sure, we can only make educated guesses on it
> 
> Evolution however we can prove as firmly as your bum and ginger cock being as one


Yes, I like ginger cock. Its true. There, I said it - you happy now?

You aren't getting the point though - don't worry, many don't - yes evolution can be proven - but what if it is all a mirage? The easiest way I can break it down for a simpleton knob nosher like yourself is - imagine everything you see around about you is false - like the Matrix perhaps?

Again, not saying I believe that myself, but I do keep an open mind, and do think there is a benefit to musing over such bullsh1t


----------



## Guest (Jan 12, 2011)

jimmy89 said:


> i see what you mean but i just think, if we evolved from amino acids as believed, then other planets must have life also
> 
> its true though what you say where did god or aliens come from, where did eveyrthing come from :confused1:


With the amount of planets being discovered, then yeah, id agree, theres probably a pretty big chance of life on other planets, but what alot of people dont realise is, its not just the fact that aminos sprang into life. Its the fact that earth is where it is, Not to far away, and not too close to the sun, not too big that the atmosphere is harsh, and not too small so that the plants gravity cant stop the solar winds stripping away the atmosphere and it being just another big dead rock.

Not varying on its axis too much so that there a stable temperatures throughout the day and year.

Theres a billion factors all lined up in such a way that life has been promoted on this planet.

A planet only needs 1 of those billion factors to be out of whack, and its gone from maybe having intelligent life, to being just another dead rock.


----------



## ShaunMc (Apr 28, 2008)

can the belief of god make me any bigger ........NO

case closed


----------



## 2004mark (Oct 26, 2013)

jimmy89 said:


> i see what you mean but i just think, if we evolved from amino acids as believed, then other planets must have life also
> 
> its true though what you say where did god or aliens come from, where did eveyrthing come from :confused1:


I believe there is a far greater chance than not we are not alone in this unimaginably vast universe. But that's not to mean I believe we 'were put here' by aliens or have ever interacted with them, because I don't... but who knows, intelligent life from another place could have visited this planet billions of years ago when it was lifeless and deposited the single cell organisms that we have almost certainly evolved from... but I very much doubt it.


----------



## rs007 (May 28, 2007)

ShaunMc said:


> can the belief of god make me any bigger ........NO
> 
> case closed


Ronnie Coleman disagrees, and he is bigger than you


----------



## Jimbo 1 (Jul 25, 2010)

ShaunMc said:


> Religion works on the basis that you believe everything u read


Bump

Man wrote these books Bible etcetera they put in what they want to control the venerable & needy

But there is a bit of history in these books

I think an alien genetic scientist is more believable


----------



## NoGutsNoGlory (Jun 11, 2009)

Cracking posts by mikex101.


----------



## Squeeeze (Oct 2, 2007)

Ken Hutchinson said:


> http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Evolution%20Hoax/4000.htm
> 
> Evolution is just a theory.....Darwins theory or evolution......it's not a fact, ie it's a theory.


Supported by a mountain of evidence. Just one example is the fact that very old rocks only contain fossils of sea dwelling creatures, then amphibious fossils start to appear, then in later deposits land dwelling creatures start to appear. It's a no brainer .... massive amount of concrete evidence to support evolution, absolutely zip for a 'divine being'.


----------



## Squeeeze (Oct 2, 2007)

mikex101 said:


> With the amount of planets being discovered, then yeah, id agree, theres probably a pretty big chance of life on other planets, but what alot of people dont realise is, its not just the fact that aminos sprang into life. Its the fact that earth is where it is, Not to far away, and not too close to the sun, not too big that the atmosphere is harsh, and not too small so that the plants gravity cant stop the solar winds stripping away the atmosphere and it being just another big dead rock.
> 
> Not varying on its axis too much so that there a stable temperatures throughout the day and year.
> 
> ...


Yes, but in an infinite universe containing billions of galaxies which in turn contain billions of stars and planets, the law of averages states that there is a very good chance that it would happen somewhere. That somewhere is right here.


----------



## Jimbo 1 (Jul 25, 2010)

The Raptor said:


> Doesn't stop me from living my life to the full, im not gonna stay in thinking:
> 
> "well i'll be boring now but all is ok because i'll spend all eternity with god in paradise in about 50 years"


Lol when the lights go out that may be it so enjoy life while you can IMO


----------



## ShaunMc (Apr 28, 2008)

rs007 said:


> Ronnie Coleman disagrees, and he is bigger than you


That's it I'm off to buy a bible .... Jesus loves me


----------



## Was_Eric (Jul 3, 2008)

AYYYYEEEEEEEEEE

there is

people who think that people who think that there is are daft are daft


----------



## Was_Eric (Jul 3, 2008)

Gee-bol said:


> science cant disprove the existance of god 100% but 99.99% is more than good enough for me ;-)


no it cant soz


----------



## PaulB (Jun 6, 2010)

GOD is a member on UKM, you must have seen his posts.


----------



## Jimbo 1 (Jul 25, 2010)

Evolution this is even more interesting since man has had the intelligence to write & record things has any thing been seen to evolve ?

Apart from a virus

We are playing with genetics in present time so we may start changing things soon


----------



## Smitch (Dec 29, 2008)




----------



## Squeeeze (Oct 2, 2007)

Jimbo 1 said:


> Evolution this is even more interesting since man has had the intelligence to write & record things has any thing been seen to evolve ?
> 
> We are playing with genetics in present time so we may start changing things soon


Can't tell you which species but was watching something attenborough presented, evolutionary shifts have been documneted in some species. Would have to go digging for it though.

So even more evidence for evolutionary adaption.


----------



## Jimbo 1 (Jul 25, 2010)

Squeeeze said:


> Can't tell you which species but was watching something attenborough presented, evolutionary shifts have been documneted in some species. Would have to go digging for it though.
> 
> So even more evidence for evolutionary adaption.


Must say attenborough's programs are good,


----------



## Bulk1 (Apr 12, 2007)

when your a kid your brought up to believe that just above the clouds is heaven when you all end up and there's a man with a big white beard waiting to let you in (a bit like santa) called God. The fact is we are such a tiny irrelevant spec in the universe compared to other galaxys.. theres not much chance the man with the white beard is going to have time to listen to your problem about having a hairy mole growing on your ass, we're only here because it was just an accident.

What I do like is knowing we are just floating around in the middle of nowhere that nobody knows where we are apart from how far there telescopes can see lol.. as there isnt a begginning or an ending.. and we dont even give a **** lol but we still think its important when your football team loses a game! we're just living on this irrelivent tiny spec floating around in space...i think thats quite cool.


----------



## Gee-bol (Jul 2, 2009)

Was_Eric said:


> no it cant soz


from a religious view point i think it has been in my opinion,the mains basis of belief for most religion is a holybook..and science and proved the claims in most as being false so that means the belief must be false.


----------



## Lostgeordie (Aug 2, 2006)

Was_Eric said:


> AYYYYEEEEEEEEEE
> 
> there is
> 
> people who think that people who think that there is are daft are daft


I don't think people are daft for believing in an unproveable hypothesis.

I do think that most people who believe in a deity are uninformed generally on much of the available research.


----------



## coflex (May 10, 2010)

Team1 said:


> Care to tell us of some of these holes? Evolution isnt a "theory" as you put it its a fact.


no mate...it's totally unprovable. bones dug up from the ground can only give us a theory not a fact.

something started the whole thing going....and to say that some form of intelligence wasn't involved, is like saying that the dictionary was invented in an explosion in a print factory. ludicrous.


----------



## Lostgeordie (Aug 2, 2006)

coflex said:


> no mate...it's totally unprovable. bones dug up from the ground can only give us a theory not a fact.
> 
> something started the whole thing going....and to say that some form of intelligence wasn't involved, is like saying that the dictionary was invented in an explosion in a print factory. ludicrous.


The scientific principle

Hypothesise

Test

Observe

Conclude

The first time we dug up a bone we hypothesise, then we test those hypotheses using the techniques available to us. We observe the results and make conclusions based on them.

Evolution is a fact not a theory. You could argue, as many christians do, that evolution was the great maker's plan all along, but there is no refuting evolution!


----------



## Gee-bol (Jul 2, 2009)

coflex said:


> no mate...it's totally unprovable. bones dug up from the ground can only give us a theory not a fact.
> 
> something started the whole thing going....and to say that some form of intelligence wasn't involved, is like saying that the dictionary was invented in an explosion in a print factory. ludicrous.


ok then mate answer me this,who created god?

then who created gods creater etc you could go on all day,


----------



## Bulk1 (Apr 12, 2007)

on a better note... do people who believe in god know what he looks like? or do they hear him? or just pray for a better life?


----------



## rs007 (May 28, 2007)

Gee-bol said:


> ok then mate answer me this,who created god?
> 
> then who created gods creater etc you could go on all day,


maybe he was always just there?

As I said earlier, most humans can only fumble around the edges of the concept of true infinity.


----------



## Guest (Jan 12, 2011)

rs007 said:


> maybe he was always just there?
> 
> As I said earlier, most humans can only fumble around the edges of the concept of true infinity.


If indeed there is such a thing


----------



## coflex (May 10, 2010)

rs007 said:


> Put very simply, science leads to most being arrogant, blinkered.
> 
> Not all that can be measured, matters - and not all that matters can be measured.
> 
> ...


this sums it up pretty well


----------



## Bulk1 (Apr 12, 2007)

in a moment of absolute need (life or death) just having the belief that someone/thing is going to help you out would be something to give you hope, then you will believe in anything. I may even start believing when that happens.


----------



## spudsy (May 13, 2009)

I don't believe in god myself but i'm not sure about evolution either...... the basic premise of evolution being that the current generation is better than ( or improves on ) the one previous.... anybody thats listened to a julian lennon album knows this is simply not the case:whistling:


----------



## Gee-bol (Jul 2, 2009)

rs007 said:


> maybe he was always just there?
> 
> As I said earlier, most humans can only fumble around the edges of the concept of true infinity.


thats a terrible answer tbh,totally contridiction if thats the case hows it so hard to beleive we just 'appeared'.


----------



## rs007 (May 28, 2007)

Gee-bol said:


> thats a terrible answer tbh,totally contridiction if thats the case hows it so hard to beleive we just 'appeared'.


Like I said, most humans can't understand - cheers for illustrating :lol:


----------



## Gee-bol (Jul 2, 2009)

rs007 said:


> Like I said, most humans can't understand - cheers for illustrating :lol:


thats just to easy to say though..total cop out,beleivers use quotes like this to dodge questions they cant answer


----------



## Lostgeordie (Aug 2, 2006)

spudsy said:


> I don't believe in god myself but i'm not sure about evolution either...... the basic premise of evolution being that the current generation is better than ( or improves on ) the one previous.... anybody thats listened to a julian lennon album knows this is simply not the case:whistling:


That is not evolution... it's not about improvement it's about adaptation.


----------



## rs007 (May 28, 2007)

mikex101 said:


> If indeed there is such a thing


If indeed - I wasn't saying there was.

But no matter what camp you set your tent up in, you always come back to "Well what created that though" or "where did that come from then"

A dose of infinity answers it nicely, but humans generally can't comprehend it properly, I don't think we are programmed too. I mean we get a glimpse of it, but never a full comprehension I feel. Probably because all we do is procreate, and then die ourselves, as does all the other life around us (at least bodily).

I mean you can even see people struggling to deal with finite numbers in here - Ken - who's posts in here I have enjoyed - said he refused to believe all life on earth came from the same handful of starting blocks. With a part comprehension of the sheer massiveness of the time passed, I could believe it. Geology was about the only thing I enjoyed at Uni, something I would go and study again if I could afford to. It deals with absurdly massive passages of time, the ages of the very rocks that make up the current surface of the earth. If most people have trouble comprehending these massive but finite numbers, then what chance have they of taking on board the real concept of infinity?


----------



## Team1 (Apr 3, 2008)

coflex said:


> no mate...it's totally unprovable. bones dug up from the ground can only give us a theory not a fact.
> 
> something started the whole thing going....and to say that some form of intelligence wasn't involved, is like saying that the dictionary was invented in an explosion in a print factory. ludicrous.


Yiour making opinions here on something you dont have any knowledge on

We can test the age of bones and rocks to a very very accurate degree. We dont just dig them up and take a wild guess at it. Its not theory...its tested and proven fact

some form of intelliencemay wellave been involved in evolution...but only to the point it may have started it all off. evolution happend.


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## rs007 (May 28, 2007)

Gee-bol said:


> thats just to easy to say though..total cop out,beleivers use quotes like this to dodge questions they cant answer


For the record, try reading the thread - I don't have any set beliefs on this subject, I am reasonably well read and just like to offer thoughts, possibilities.

And, as a concept, it does answer startling holes in all theories - because as I said, when you trace it back you are always left with a "well who created that" or "where did that come from then". What is the saying? When you elliminate the impossible, whatever is left, no matter how improbable, has to be the truth? Something along those lines anyway.

Just sayin'


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## Lostgeordie (Aug 2, 2006)

rs007 said:


> When you elliminate the impossible, whatever is left, no matter how improbable, has to be the truth? Something along those lines anyway.


Good quote - Sherlock Holmes... and a good scientific basis for making observations about the universe. Of course Holmes was an Opium addict so probably had a unique perspective!


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## Gee-bol (Jul 2, 2009)

rs007 said:


> For the record, try reading the thread - I don't have any set beliefs on this subject, I am reasonably well read and just like to offer thoughts, possibilities.
> 
> And, as a concept, it does answer startling holes in all theories - because as I said, when you trace it back you are always left with a "well who created that" or "where did that come from then". What is the saying? When you elliminate the impossible, whatever is left, no matter how improbable, has to be the truth? Something along those lines anyway.
> 
> Just sayin'


fair play mate,point taken,

over the years av heard to many people use stuff like that to dodge question cos they dont know the answer thats all.


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## Guest (Jan 12, 2011)

Lostgeordie said:


> Good quote - Sherlock Holmes... and a good scientific basis for making observations about the universe. Of course Holmes was an Opium addict so probably had a unique perspective!


and is also fictional. have we come full circle already?


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## rs007 (May 28, 2007)

mikex101 said:


> and is also fictional. have we come full circle already?


 :lol: :lol: :lol: - I was just about to post that 

Trust me to pick an quote from someone who doesn't exist. Plus I have been using morphine myself recently :lol:


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## rs007 (May 28, 2007)

Gee-bol said:


> fair play mate,point taken,
> 
> over the years av heard to many people use stuff like that to dodge question cos they dont know the answer thats all.


Ahhh right, I get you now

Sorry, I'm not one of those


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## Ironclad (Jun 23, 2009)

There are no gods. Not anymore.

We've gone from loads of different deities to just the one, each successive belief system stating, "that's how we used to think the world worked". But this one dude, YEWAH or whatever, just happens to be popular in the time we live in, tomorrow it'll be a different one or (I hope) none.

Only science heals the sick, makes the lame walk & will get us off this damned planet.

No gods, no dragons or pixies and no magic. There is only heavy iron and protein flapjacks. Worship that, oh brothers!


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## Matt 1 (May 8, 2010)

There's always the quote that "If God's all forgiving, he won't mind if I didn't believe in him".

I believe in a 'god' but he's not some beardy bloke sitting in the clouds lol


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## flinty90 (Jul 1, 2010)

ShaunMc said:


> *Simple answer NO there is not ..... And I doubt there is a single person who can offer any evidence to prove the existence of a god* ..... And before the god squad give the counter argument to offer proof he doesn't exist ..... Remember u can't offer proof of the non existence of something


Sorry mate your wrong , check out my Avi again and then tell me there is no god !!!


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## KRS (Nov 27, 2008)

Rams, if infinity exists, it means that I am in the middle of everything and infinity stretches out in all directions both inversely and outwardly.

So, if you're in Scotland and I'm in England even though there is distance between us, we are both in the middle and I'm bumming you right now BOOM!

whereisyourgodnow.jpg:cool2:


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## spudsy (May 13, 2009)

Lostgeordie said:


> That is not evolution... it's not about improvement it's about adaptation.


It was more of a joke than a serious comment m8, :thumbup1:


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## TerryT (Jul 20, 2010)

Not read all of this thread but I think everyone would love the idea of a God and heaven where we can see loved ones again. But religion truly is the opium of the people, it acts as a means of control and keeps the majority running round in circles believing in some super natural being that will one day come again and save them.

The best site that puts paid to any religious argument is whywontgodhealamputees.com

If you think about it and are an intelligent human being, and if you want to understand the true nature of God, you owe it to yourself to ask, "Why won't God heal amputees? ...


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## Ironclad (Jun 23, 2009)

Trouble is Terry, the magic words used as a retort (to this and most any anti-argument) are it's all part of God's plan that we are too sh!t to understand.


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## cult (Nov 7, 2009)

no


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## mal (Dec 31, 2009)

i believe in the matrix,its all around us.


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## Raptor (Feb 16, 2010)

Alien intervention is much more the likely case, like we were just put here 'because they could'


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## Kezz (Sep 3, 2007)

whats that, a loads of egyptian sperms flying out of a hole in the sky!!


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## BLUTOS (Mar 5, 2005)

The length of time thats been I have no probs with evolution, we have loads n loads of evidence.

If peeps need a faith cool no worries, wish it would't hurt so many people in the process, but all faiths have made contributions in one epoch or another.

As to God dunno, if your talking about a dude doing things in 7 days nah, but its strange that the exact set of circumstances were her post big bang, the right amount of elements and gravity to create sun and planets is a hell of a fluke, percentages one way would have led to the sun burning out before evolution had a chance to work, percentages another insufficient gravity for the soup to form the mass to create the planets and allow all the crazyness that we call life to have happened.

When I die I will will get burnt, the bits and bobs of me that re hit the environment will be taken up by plant matter and the whole cycle starts again, St Peter with keys waiting to let me in? nice story, but I wish we all made here and now a wee bit more heavenly and fairer for all.


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## mal (Dec 31, 2009)

Kezz said:


> whats that, a loads of egyptian sperms flying out of a hole in the sky!!


i think there keys on a big ring,to unlock the mysterys of the universe,or a garden rake,

i think they liked gardening.


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## Fatstuff (Mar 2, 2010)

I like the way people say how can we come from nothing - In the right conditions living things grow were just lucky that the position of earth, the position of the sun and sizes and all that was lucky - if you leave milk in a warm room something living grows off that! Just because u dont understand it doesnt make it true!


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## Raptor (Feb 16, 2010)

fatmanstan! said:


> I like the way people say how can we come from nothing - In the right conditions living things grow were just lucky that the position of earth, the position of the sun and sizes and all that was lucky - if you leave milk in a warm room something living grows off that! Just because u dont understand it doesnt make it true!


Your right about the whole world being 'organic' so in effect anything growing on the surface of a planet could be seen as fungus.. just like if fungus grew on milk... to certain other civilisations, all our forests, houses, even cities could just be seen as evolved 'fungus'


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## Khaos1436114653 (Aug 28, 2009)

There is "The Great Architect"


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## Andy Dee (Jun 1, 2008)

The question or concern really shouldnt be 'Is there a god' what you should be more concerned with is

'What does god want with a ship?' :confused1:


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## Pikachu (Nov 12, 2010)

Sperm -> Baby = 9 Months.

Nuff said


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## gearchange (Mar 19, 2010)

andysutils said:


> The question or concern really shouldnt be 'Is there a god' what you should be more concerned with is
> 
> 'What does god want with a ship?' :confused1:


As a trekki do you feel any closer to the answer ?:laugh:


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## junior (Jan 12, 2008)

Aliens done it they helped this planet along big time.


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## Andy Dee (Jun 1, 2008)

gearchange said:


> As a trekki do you feel any closer to the answer ?:laugh:


Not being funny mate, 'but i can help notice your pain'


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## Fatstuff (Mar 2, 2010)

Why do people quote aliens!!! Where did aliens come from, other aliens where did they come from. Wake up and smell the cocoa


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## Hicup (Jan 3, 2011)

laurie g said:


> there is no god. and thats that.No debate about it.


X 2


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## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

Quite simple really

We are inherently animals, We all have animal instintcs....

Why do we think there is a 'GOD'?????

Because it was drummed into us from an early age, to be god fearing and all that bollox blah blah....

Sooooo

If we were brought up as a feral human, Ie no othet human interaction taint our instincts, what would we still know to do??

we would still know we had to take a dump

We would still know hunger, thirst and NEED to quench both..

Good chance we would figure out what tro do with member of opposite sex, at very least Im sure dudes would get hard looking at something similar but with tits and an extra hole..

What would NOT come naturally???

Fckin pray to God or even be aware of its\his\hers existance

If was a God, would know without being told, like taking a dump

Thats proof...

Conversly, if your not told about him?? then its ok to rape and kill who yoiu want as no one to answer too eh??


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## Foamy (Jul 2, 2010)

I couldn't be bothered to read this whole thread as it's been done to death before, but I will say that it astounds me that in this day and age, with all the proof and genuine scientific evidence we have, how anyone could believe in a religion.


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## rs007 (May 28, 2007)

jw007 said:


> Quite simple really
> 
> We are inherently animals, We all have animal instintcs....
> 
> ...


All ancient civilisations have belief in something though. Even completely basic, non advanced groups - have beleif in something greater than themselves.

Probably more that as the human grows, it sees things it cannot understand, so invents an answer - that would be more logical. So I think a feral human would still come to certain belief systems that over time could become "religion".

Like you say, in groups, "organised" religion can serve a purpose as the ground level of what is right and wrong.

Anyway, Ive seen a very good documentary called Avatar - not only did it prove the existence of Aliens, but they too had a religion and diety. And it must be true because I seen it


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## goonerton (Sep 7, 2009)

Don`t know much about this stuff but always find this argument amusing.

People argue that scientists can prove how we all and everything else evolved from a single celled organism or the such, yet what is there answer to how did the first organism get here??


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## gearchange (Mar 19, 2010)

The notion of creation by chance is another way of saying the universe created itself. For something to create itself it would have to exist in order to create. But then it would have to exist before it existed in order to create its own existence. For something to be self-created it would have to be and not be at the same time. This, of course, is contradictory and therefore irrational. If chance is not valid, we are constrained to reject the claim and to realize that we are the product of an intelligent God.

But on the other hand, If God really existed He would not have allowed the Hitler to murder 6 million Jews, or Stalin 40 million of his own people, or ethnic genocide in Bosnia and Rwanda, and on and on.

There you have both sides of a coin,which way to go:whistling:. :whistling: :whistling: :whistling:


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## Raptor (Feb 16, 2010)

jw007 said:


> Quite simple really
> 
> We are inherently animals, We all have animal instintcs....
> 
> ...


Lions will kill cubs from other tribes for fun and often try to rape females....

God will strike down on humans if they do wrong... imo 'the bible' was wrote by ancient politicians


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## KRS (Nov 27, 2008)




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## Guest (Jan 12, 2011)

I dont belive in God, I find the idea of Mormons coming to my door a fuking insult, as I dont appreciate them and I have Google and Books to learn all about them if I want to.

I do believe in afterlife though, maybe even reincarnation. I sort of think there is more just to a simple body, there is spirit maybe. Thats just what i think, i do find Religion's nothing to do with God and if there was a God, then Religion is an insult to him. God is one and the same for everyone, but not for Mormons, Islamists, Christians.. etc.


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## TmcG (Feb 15, 2010)

Nope in my opinion there aint no god.But if there was a god then he would have to have been a Hermaphrodite so therefore should just go and f*ck himself.


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## SiPhil (Jun 16, 2010)

I'm not a sheep and don't need the 'guidance' of a mythical being to guide me through life. I live my own life. So no, I don't believe there is a god. If 'god' ever spoke to me I'd have to get meds for schitzophrenia.

The Mayan sun god is the only one which has a physical presence and is a true bringer of life, but they took it a little too far trying to converse with a big ball of burning hydrogen.


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## Marshan (Aug 27, 2010)

Im not long here and forgive me for being so cheeky ..but I cant believe what Im reading. OP...are you serious,or just having a laugh? I take it theres a lot of the chemistry we all could be considered as being involved in in some way, that you have a fairly good understanding of, and I can assume by that youre pretty smart. So how can you not even by yourself figure out the whole 'God' thing? It was a very good and successful scheme to try and keep man/men in check back from a time when there was no such thing as law and order(oh if my granny could read this,God rest her). It caught on well...as youd expect, because in those times people werent as intelligent or educated as we are now and anything that gave people a sense of hope or meaning in their lives they otherwise werent going to have would be well received. Nowadays we have the law and government to maintain a sense of order on things,otherwise there would still be chaos in the world. That in itself is a form if not a proof of evolution. Like one of the first posters said he doesnt necessarily believe in religion but agrees with/admires the sense of morality it instils in people. Spot on bro(that would be my take as well). Another poster mentions carbon dating on fossils to put them at 4 billion years old,wrong dude,carbon dating doesnt work that far back but youve got a good grasp of things anyway. Its the distance between galaxies and the rate at which they are separating plus a few other highbrow things that helps scientists date the universe. And I could be wrong on this but I think they have it at 15 billion yrs so far. As for all the holy miracles people have reported down through the ages...well...I want to see one myself otherwise Im not buying. It's a difficult thing for someone to accept after a life of believing and being programmed to believe from a young age that there is no God,its hard to let go of and accept and as such even Einstein himself always believed in religion,but no matter which way you cut it there cannot be a God...in no way can there be a God,and certainly theres no need for one anyway. What does anyone need a God for?? To make you afraid and so be a good person? God will not make you like that...your sense of respect for your fellow man will make you be like that. God will not make you get up on those miserable winter mornings and get to the gym,you can thank yourself for that. Well done Ken Hutchinsin...whatever youve done or achieved in your life youve managed to do for yourself and without the help of 'God'.


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## Marshan (Aug 27, 2010)

+ 1 jw007...simples man.


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## Marshan (Aug 27, 2010)

+1 KRB


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## Marshan (Aug 27, 2010)

re Goonerton. They do know already....scientists artificially reproduced the way amino acids were formed in laborotories years ago. Thats basic elementary stuff for budding biologists. Its not even considered a curiosity anymore. The reason people arent aware of it is because they either havent been told,didnt ask, didnt know where to ask or just dont care.


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## Marshan (Aug 27, 2010)

@ The Raptor....ancient politicians!? Perfectly put...you get it.


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## Gee-bol (Jul 2, 2009)

its funny jusat because science doesnt know the answer to every little thing that means god must have done it,why?

loads of stuff in the past were left unanswered by science and people moved in to claim it was the work of god...until science advances,answers the questions and blows the god theory out of the water.

it might take hundreds of years but one day science will answer every question..then hopefully the whole god argument will dissapear.


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## UKAndy (Dec 26, 2010)

I'd like to think there's a God. I don't want to live a good life, trying to be a good person if somebody genuinely 'evil' is going to end up having the same fate as me.

I was questioning my faith for a while, the whole "how can there be a divine God when there's so much evil in the world?" argument. I read something that really made sense to me: scientifically speaking, darkness is just the absence of light, we can study light, but not darkness. You can't measure how dark something is, just the amount of light present. Again, coldness does not exist, cold is the absence of heat. Absolute zero (-460 F) is the complete absence of heat, not the presence of cold, cold is just a man-made word to describe the absence or lack of heat.

Take this viewpoint and look at 'evil'. Is there such a thing as evil? Everyday, you see inhumanity, crime, violence. These things would be classed as evil. Evil doesn't exist. Evil is the lack of good in a person, or from a religious viewpoint, the lack of God. God didn't create evil, it's like the cold when thereis no heat, or the darkness in the absence of light.

You can't fault the Bible in it's teachings, if all people were to live by those rules, then we would live in a much, much better place.


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## Team1 (Apr 3, 2008)

goonerton said:


> Don`t know much about this stuff but always find this argument amusing.
> 
> People argue that scientists can prove how we all and everything else evolved from a single celled organism or the such, yet what is there answer to how did the first organism get here??


Good question mate. We dont know the answer to that/ there is some theories but no firm proven answers

This is where the God Squad come in and say "HA Then the there must be a God then if you dont know that bit"

well

Maybebut maybe not

Thats called "the god of the gaps"..wherever you dont know the answer to something you just say "wel it must be god"....like people used to do to explain thunder and lightning ..that used to be Gods wrath but now we understand diffeent......why volcanoes erupt....that used to be God but now we understand the process.....why we have "all creatures great and small the lordgod made them all"..but now we understand that evolution is responsible for the process of it all

those were all "gaps" that god used to be placed into....much like many will place god in for the first...the very first piece of life. Justcos we dont now right now doesnt mean we wont eventually. Maybe we wont ever, maybe it will turn out to be a God. Who knows


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## Jake1436114563 (May 9, 2008)

No there is not. Endo thread.... lol, kiddin.


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## Team1 (Apr 3, 2008)

UKAndy said:


> I'd like to think there's a God. I don't want to live a good life, trying to be a good person if somebody genuinely 'evil' is going to end up having the same fate as me.
> 
> .


So what your saying is you "DONT want to live a good life" if some bad fcuker gets the same fate as you?

How about just living a good life because being a good person and caring for people is good :lol:

My partner and i see ourself as Humanists. We like to do good and help people not because we are told to by a book or because thats what you have to do to get to heaven...we do it beacause we want to help people end of story. Which is also why we are having a humanist wedding ceremony and not a religious one.

Problem is with what you said is you are not REALLY living a good life because you are a good person then, you're only doing it to get Gods favour.

* By helping people my missus works with a childrens charity and does voluntary work helping out young people that just need a litle bit of help due to family break up, drugs, alcohol, abuse etc. Its really inspired me....Her selflesness and im starting the same thing, bing less selfish and giving some of my time to help children that jus need a little steer in the right direction. The charity is non religious.


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## UKAndy (Dec 26, 2010)

Team1 said:


> So what your saying is you "DONT want to live a good life" if some bad fcuker gets the same fate as you?
> 
> How about just living a good life because being a good person and caring for people is good :lol:
> 
> ...


I phrased that wrong, I don't want people who are evil to have the fate as good people. Not because being good is a chore or something that someone shouldn't do anyway, but because it IS something people should be.

Kudos on the charity work.


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## WaxOnWaxOff (Mar 11, 2010)

UKAndy said:


> I
> 
> You can't fault the Bible in it's teachings, if all people were to live by those rules, then we would live in a much, much better place.


Would we live in a much better place if we executed adulterers, homosexuals, unruly children, unbelievers, people who work on the Sabbath .... ?


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## Nathrakh (Apr 5, 2004)

Think the choice between is there a God/isn't there is slightly irrelevant. It only matters how, if it does exist impact on our lives.

Choices.doc


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## mal (Dec 31, 2009)

Check out this Alien runway

View attachment 53703


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## flapjack (Mar 1, 2008)

The truth is that nobody knows.

This is good news as it means you can believe anything you want.


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## Marshan (Aug 27, 2010)

UKAndy..absolute zero is the temperature at which no chemical or physical reactions can take place...its not a measure of heat or cold. As for evil...thats a man made term. And whether anyone likes it or not its completely neccessary to have 'evil' people in the world. Evil people have always existed..its part of human evolution that there are evil people. Humanity wouldnt last ****ing length if everybody was the same. For every Mother Teresa out there theres another Hitler in the making..theyre just not as inclined to stand out from the crowd as they used to be because humanity is less tolerant of these people than weve ever been. The days of the likes of Pol Pot and Kim Jong-Il are numbered thankfully. Nothing to do with God at all. You cant fault the bible in its teachings...personally I could never understand a quarter of it...rambling nonsense. The commandments...good effort for early laws.


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## Virtus (Apr 30, 2007)

There is no way there is a God. IMO it is impossible, i was forced to go to Church has a kid and made a reasonable choice that its not true. I have stuck by that theory my entire life, evolution is proven, god isn't.

.

I think Jesus did exist, but he was more a Prophet, spreading the word of god. Even his birthday was brought in line with that of pagan rituals and i think the catholic church is the most corrupt thing to date. You think thousand of years ago, when people had no understanding of how the world worked and they see the sun rising and setting. There natural thought was that of 'God' like entity.

Religon is one of the main reasons why this world is constantly at war with each other.


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## defdaz (Nov 11, 2007)

mixerD1 said:


> UKAndy..absolute zero is the temperature at which no chemical or physical reactions can take place...its not a measure of heat or cold.


Er... temperature IS how hot or cold something is (hot or cold just means something has more internal kinetic energy or less when compared to something else). It's a measurement of the average kinetic energy of the constituent particles of the substance. You can't actually get to absolute zero but if something did have a temperature of absolute zero (-273.15 degrees Celsius) then it's particles would be motionless - zero kinetic energy.

/takes off anorak


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## a.notherguy (Nov 17, 2008)

there is a god.........


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## mcslimjim (Jul 27, 2010)

hey Mike sorry to jump in on ur thread, but got told to ask you for some info by KRS he says you know ur stuff with nile products, could you check out this link and verify some cido`s for me please man???

http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/steroid-testosterone-information/123571-cidoteston-batch-102-a.html#post2090751

By the way there must be a god who knows what shape or form or walk of life he is from, but there must be a creator or we wouldnt be here!!!

Cheers Slim.


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## Marshan (Aug 27, 2010)

defdaz said:


> Er... temperature IS how hot or cold something is (hot or cold just means something has more internal kinetic energy or less when compared to something else). It's a measurement of the average kinetic energy of the constituent particles of the substance. You can't actually get to absolute zero but if something did have a temperature of absolute zero (-273.15 degrees Celsius) then it's particles would be motionless - zero kinetic energy.
> 
> /takes off anorak


Put far more succinctly than I ever could've put it but I think we're on the same page.


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## bluesteel (May 28, 2010)

Ken Hutchinson said:


> We are brain washed everyday, they dont like us asking questions, they shoot us down as nut jobs, if we dare think outside of the box, they treat us like little children, the truth is out there.


is this directed at science or religion. if directed at science i hate you. science welcomes questioning as it allows us to strive for greater truth. religion condemns anyone trying to improve on ideas or truths. gallileo springs to mind. he was right about something and was condemned by the church because they disagreed. religion has slowed down our search for knowledge for too long


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## KRS (Nov 27, 2008)

bluesteel said:


> is this directed at science or religion. if directed at science i hate you. science welcomes questioning as it allows us to strive for greater truth. religion condemns anyone trying to improve on ideas or truths. gallileo springs to mind. he was right about something and was condemned by the church because they disagreed. religion has slowed down our search for knowledge for too long


Science can be just as bad as religion at shooting down those who go against the current perspectives. There are many examples of scientists labelled as crackpots because they had discovered something new which went against the views held at the time. People both religious and secular hate anyone rocking the boat.

Ken's opinions do appear to be a little paranoid but are just as valid as anyone else's.

IMO nobody can prove the existence of God or whether the Earth is a sphere, people can only give a testimony as to what they have observed.

I know one thing, I believe more in the existence of God than the Earth being a sphere.


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## Ironclad (Jun 23, 2009)

KRS said:


> I know one thing, I believe more in the existence of God than the Earth being a sphere.


Ummm.. you serious?


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## KRS (Nov 27, 2008)

Witch-King said:


> Ummm.. you serious?


Yes, very serious.

Depending upon the scale of the instrument you are measuring with, the Earth is all kinds of shapes and sizes. Take a look at some of Benoit Mandelbrot's work.

We state the Earth is a sphere because it suits us, all our current theories and technology are satisfied with that, but there is a limit to it's validity.

There may be a time when we are required to be more specific, then a more accurate description of the Earth's shape will be produced.


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## bluesteel (May 28, 2010)

thats stupid. pictures of earth from satellites and space probes show it is a sphere. what more proof do you need than a PHOTO!! also the laws of mathematics and gravity mean it would form a sphere in its early life. thats insane.


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## ShaunMc (Apr 28, 2008)

UKAndy said:


> I'd like to think there's a God. I don't want to live a good life, trying to be a good person if somebody genuinely 'evil' is going to end up having the same fate as me.
> 
> I was questioning my faith for a while, the whole "how can there be a divine God when there's so much evil in the world?" argument. I read something that really made sense to me: scientifically speaking, darkness is just the absence of light, we can study light, but not darkness. You can't measure how dark something is, just the amount of light present. Again, coldness does not exist, cold is the absence of heat. Absolute zero (-460 F) is the complete absence of heat, not the presence of cold, cold is just a man-made word to describe the absence or lack of heat.
> 
> ...


not quite true ....... although what you say about cold and dark is correct the comparison you draw between this and evil is incorrect...

you are right cold is the absence of heat, it is not a physical phenomenon in itself ....but heat is (the measure of the internal kinetic energy of partcicles)

good and evil are not physical constructs .... evil is not simply the absence of good , both these terms are abstract constructs. Good and Evil do not exist outside of human consciousness so your analogy with light and heat are incorrect


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## Ironclad (Jun 23, 2009)

KRS said:


> Yes, very serious.
> 
> Depending upon the scale of the instrument you are measuring with, the Earth is all kinds of shapes and sizes. Take a look at some of Benoit Mandelbrot's work.
> 
> ...


The Earth is a oblate spheroid. It is measured at 1/297th (pole-pole vs Axes). Accurate enuff for you?


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## KRS (Nov 27, 2008)

bluesteel said:


> thats stupid. pictures of earth from satellites and space probes show it is a sphere. what more proof do you need than a PHOTO!! also the laws of mathematics and gravity mean it would form a sphere in its early life. thats insane.


The Earth is an oblate spheroid.

The laws of mathematics and gravity make it bulge at the equator adding an extra 26 miles.

Good job your not designing nuclear missile guidance systems or we'd all be dead:lol:

I know it seems I'm being pedantic, I'm just trying to illustrate there are no absolutes. Atheists like to think that science has disproved the existence of God.

Science observes the tip of the iceberg, the overall complexity of the universe is way beyond our grasp.


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## Ironclad (Jun 23, 2009)

Perhaps, but that doesn't have to mean that magic fills the rest lol.

The planet is spheroid due to it's spin, Jupiter suffers more down to it spinning faster, Mercury less so.

Just to be a pain, there is NO evidence for a god, science hasn't actively disproved it so, it has just provided a real account for nature and this has eroded Natural Theology to dust. Atheists back-up their position with vast amounts of peer-reviewed data, some of which is accepted as absolute.

Science is the best tool for understanding, god is a cop-out.


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## KRS (Nov 27, 2008)

Witch-King said:


> Perhaps, but that doesn't have to mean that magic fills the rest lol.
> 
> The planet is spheroid due to it's spin, Jupiter suffers more down to it spinning faster, Mercury less so.
> 
> ...


Who said magic fills the rest?

All I've said is, accepted scientific fact is always subject to revision. The Newtonian Physics which allowed us to accurately predict the movement of the planets is theoretically wrong. We still use and teach Newtonian Physics because its "good enough" to get the job done. Man's scientific theories and explanation of things is open to as much criticism and review as any Theologian's when used to consider the existence of creator.

I what way is God a cop-out?


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## Ironclad (Jun 23, 2009)

KRS said:


> Who said magic fills the rest?
> 
> All I've said is, accepted scientific fact is always subject to revision. The Newtonian Physics which allowed us to accurately predict the movement of the planets is theoretically wrong. We still use and teach Newtonian Physics because its "good enough" to get the job done. Man's scientific theories and explanation of things is open to as much criticism and review as any Theologian's when used to consider the existence of creator.
> 
> I what way is God a cop-out?


God is a cop-out coz it/theology answers nothing, while claiming to (how did we come to be, The Flood, historical errors etc)

Newtonian physics isn't wrong, in it's field. We use it as a means to an end as Laws are obeyed until you want to measure the vast or the small, but school kids aren't going to be taught QM from the start, they need to grasp the basics and then progress.

You did allude to magic imo.



> Atheists like to think that science has disproved the existence of God.
> 
> Science observes the tip of the iceberg, the overall complexity of the universe is way beyond our grasp.


By magic, I mean god or supernatural gobbledygook.


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## hamsternuts (Feb 8, 2009)

i don't believe there is a god, it's a fanciful idea.

i don't blame anyone who believes in one though, if i was brainwashed from an early age, i probably would too.

thanks mum and dad, for not filling my head with imaginary jewish zombies who will be angry if i wánk.


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## Ironclad (Jun 23, 2009)

> All I've said is, accepted scientific fact is always subject to revision.


All science is subject to revision, that's the beauty of it - everyone can join in, there are no clerics dictating fact.

However, some (regardless of the above) is now regarded as fact because no other models fit or work. It does not make science infallible , just make reality more predictable. Eg geology


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## ShaunMc (Apr 28, 2008)

as i have said many times it is not for the aetheist to dis prove the existence of god ...it is for the believer to prove the existence

it is impossible to provide evidence for the non existence of something .........

so the simple endpoint to this thread is for the believer to provide a single piece of concrete evidence for the existence of god ...which they wont be able to do

cue pointless argument


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## Ironclad (Jun 23, 2009)

This


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## TIMMY_432 (Aug 6, 2009)

Id like to think so yes.


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## KRS (Nov 27, 2008)

Witch-King said:


> God is a cop-out coz it/theology answers nothing, while claiming to (how did we come to be, The Flood, historical errors etc)
> 
> Newtonian physics isn't wrong, in it's field. We use it as a means to an end as Laws are obeyed until you want to measure the vast or the small, but school kids aren't going to be taught QM from the start, they need to grasp the basics and then progress.
> 
> ...


Religion claims to know the answer, atheists claim science has the answers. Doubt can be cast on them both.

Neither science or religion can offer proof of whether there is a God or not.

When I said, "Science observes the tip of the iceberg, the overall complexity of the universe is way beyond our grasp." I mean't just that.


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## Ironclad (Jun 23, 2009)

Atheists claim nothing but their disbelief in the supernatural. Some atheists believe science to be the best tool for getting answers and understanding stuff. Here;s a video, it's 14m long but pretty good.








> Neither science or religion can offer proof of whether there is a God or not.


That's very true. Can't knock that. But it is also why there are parody religions like http://www.venganza.org/ basically, any old sh!te can be made up and still argue it's religious value on the grounds of 'can't prove me wrong'.


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## Squeeeze (Oct 2, 2007)

Anybody else think that there is a little bit of desperation in those that want to believe in god, ghosts, supernatural yada yada. That they can't handle the fact that there isn't anything else, we die, it's over - end of.

So they cling desperately to anything that offers a bit of hope, even to the point of denying all the evidence because they just can't deal with the thought of the abyss.


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## KRS (Nov 27, 2008)

In my original post I tried to make what appear to be two equally absurd statements. I said I believe more in the existence of God than that the Earth is a sphere. I was questioned on that and after some discussion we are agreed that the Earth is not a sphere.

It looks like one-nil to the God squad from where I'm standing:lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Lostgeordie (Aug 2, 2006)

KRS said:


> It looks like one-nil to the God squad from where I'm standing:lol: :lol: :lol:


Rofl - at best it's 184 : 1 to the aethiests... you should read the whole thread!


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## Squeeeze (Oct 2, 2007)

The earth IS sperical i.e. it's round...ish. There isn't a better word to describe it as far as I'm aware. I think you where trying to say that the world isn't round / circular, of course it isn't, how could a lump of rock with huge gravitational forces acting on it be perfectly round.


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## Ironclad (Jun 23, 2009)

KRS said:


> In my original post I tried to make what appear to be two equally absurd statements. I said I believe more in the existence of God than that the Earth is a sphere. I was questioned on that and after some discussion we are agreed that the Earth is not a sphere.


GIT!

Remind me not to be nice to you again (bloody knew you were off the mark, didn't expect this though level of trickery though)

:lol: & :cursing:


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## KRS (Nov 27, 2008)

Lostgeordie said:


> Rofl - at best it's 184 : 1 to the aethiests... you should read the whole thread!


Simply claiming that their isn't a God without offering any evidence doesn't count, sorry:sad:


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## KRS (Nov 27, 2008)

Squeeeze said:


> The earth IS sperical i.e. it's round...ish. There isn't a better word to describe it as far as I'm aware. I think you where trying to say that the world isn't round / circular, of course it isn't, how could a lump of rock with huge gravitational forces acting on it be perfectly round.


WE CAN'T RUN A WORLD ON AN ISH!! :cursing:


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## Squeeeze (Oct 2, 2007)

KRS said:


> Simply claiming that their isn't a God without offering any evidence doesn't count, sorry:sad:


Didn't you read shaunmc's earlier post ie. it's impossible to find evidence to disprove something that doesn't exist, so the above is nonsense.... just saying like.


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## Lostgeordie (Aug 2, 2006)

KRS said:


> Simply claiming that their isn't a God without offering any evidence doesn't count, sorry:sad:


Claiming there is a God without any evidence to support it is the basis of religion...

Claiming there is no evidence to support the existence of a God is the basis of science.

One makes sense, one doesn't it's very clear - end of.


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## Ironclad (Jun 23, 2009)

Don't listen to KRS anymore, he's being a sod. :lol:


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## KRS (Nov 27, 2008)

Lostgeordie said:


> Claiming there is a God without any evidence to support it is the basis of religion...
> 
> Claiming there is no evidence to support the existence of a God is the basis of science.
> 
> One makes sense, one doesn't it's very clear - end of.


Religion offers loads of evidence to support its claims, its the validity of that evidence which is open to question.

Science alone doesn't do anything, it is an instrument of knowledge. There is no bias with science only with scientist who uses the knowledge to test his hypothesis.

It doesn't matter who the obligation falls on to offer proof, nobody can prove nor disprove the existence of God.

The evidence of God's existence is with the believer.


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## Squeeeze (Oct 2, 2007)

KRS said:


> *Religion offers loads of evidence to support its claims*, its the validity of that evidence which is open to question.
> 
> Science alone doesn't do anything, it is an instrument of knowledge. There is no bias with science only with scientist who uses the knowledge to test his hypothesis.
> 
> ...


Give us a bit of this "evidence", genuinely interested in hearing it.


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## KRS (Nov 27, 2008)

Witch-King said:


> Don't listen to KRS anymore, he's being a sod. :lol:


I was only kidding when I said the Earth is an oblate spheroid, I really believe it is a great big sausage stretching of into infinity. :lol:


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## KRS (Nov 27, 2008)

Squeeeze said:


> Give us a bit of this "evidence", genuinely interested in hearing it.


In the law, *testimony is a form of evidence* that is obtained from a witness who makes a solemn statement or declaration of fact.

I believe in God, that is my testimony.

Want me to swear on a bible?


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## Squeeeze (Oct 2, 2007)

One of the best cop outs I ever did hear ...... there's me thinking, this boys got evidence ..ffs.


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## Lostgeordie (Aug 2, 2006)

KRS said:


> The evidence of God's existence is with the believer.


And can never be empirical as a result. It is more likely that faith is a previously needed delusion of mankind than an actual all powerful being with any interest at all in mankind.

There is evidence that tracks religious experience to electrical disturbances in the temporal lobe. In fact if you want a religious experience Canadian scientists have built a helmet that can generate one for you!

Therefore those of a scientific viewpoint will not blindly accept faith. Their minds are trained to question, test and observe the universe around them.

Those of a religious viewpoint are generally willing to accept such things without the burden of proof believing that proof denies faith.

I find this argument far too convenient and a bit of a cop out.

In short if the human race was capable of treating each other in a decent way, for it's own sake, rather than fear of going to hell, religion may have never existed at all.


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## CoffeeFiend (Aug 31, 2010)

God damn this thread is still going... nice to see Lostgeordie is still owning peoples ass with every sentence  no god.. no jehova.. no akal purakh.. no allah.. people should believe in people its much simpler and in the end leads to far less senseless killing... at the very least people should just all convert to buddhism lol as thats non-theistic in nature and doesnt have a supreme being/god


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## Lostgeordie (Aug 2, 2006)

As far as I can tell buddhism is the only truly benign religion- at least in my experience.

Reps for that when I get out of the gym!


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## jim2509 (Dec 30, 2010)

It still does my head when i think about what was there before the 'Big Bang'...who or what turned the light switch on and what happens to the matter that makes you you when you snuff it..is it absorbed into the universe into another 'naturally selective plain/dimension' by a superior being (God)?? If all life dies out in the universe ie: no more new stars, planets, beings the universe will die surely...better to recycle everyone/everything or shove them in another place???


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## CoffeeFiend (Aug 31, 2010)

Lostgeordie said:


> As far as I can tell buddhism is the only truly benign religion- at least in my experience.
> 
> Reps for that when I get out of the gym!


Buddhism is my favourite religion lol its not complicated.

To a certain extent you could argue Hinduism is non-theistic as Hinduism is made up of 3 kinds of people:-

Those who believe in a supreme being/god

Those who believe in lots of gods

Those who dont believe in a god at all

Hinduism makes no sense what so ever 

But anyway.. they believe in avatars and sh!t like that as well and a lot of sects dont class them as gods and some sects say theres no god just lots of avatars.. which dont have the properties of 'god' soo if you really fvck around with your terminology and definitions those hindu sects are non-theistic as well.

All bollocks ofcourse


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## Ninja (Apr 28, 2010)

:yawn: Today you believe in 10 years you not...then again and again. Like Bruce Lee said 'Just be water my friend'


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## Soul keeper (Jul 7, 2010)

If God is real that means Goblins and pixies are real.


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## CoffeeFiend (Aug 31, 2010)

Soul keeper said:


> If God is real that means Goblins and pixies are real.


Ofcourse Pixies are real mate they just live in a different dimension to us. You need to take copius amounts of LSD whilst necking a bottle of absinthe and the little b'astards will be flying everywhere


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## goonerton (Sep 7, 2009)

Lostgeordie said:


> And can never be empirical as a result. It is more likely that faith is a previously needed delusion of mankind than an actual all powerful being with any interest at all in mankind.
> 
> There is evidence that tracks religious experience to electrical disturbances in the temporal lobe. In fact if you want a religious experience Canadian scientists have built a helmet that can generate one for you!
> 
> ...


Scientists know very little about our universe, they have no idea how vast it is , how many other planets there are, if any other planets are inhabited with life.

Because there is no scientific evidence of life on other planets does that mean there can`t possibly be?

Scientists have no concrete evidence of how the universe got here or even if this is one of many universes...

With science really offering so few answers why is it so in plausible to believe there could be a higher force that created all of it?

Even if every religion currently known to man is way off the mark and teaching a load of cobblers, still doesn`t mean there is no god.


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## Lostgeordie (Aug 2, 2006)

goonerton said:


> still doesn`t mean there is no god.


You need to read and understand the basis of the scientific principle.

I am saying that there is no evidence to support the existence of a God. If someone can demonstrate supportable evidence for the existence of a deity you will see the scientific community change stance. I don't think that this is about to happen.

Religious people say that the reason there is no proof is that proof denies faith. I say there is no proof for another more fundamental reason...


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## TH0R (Aug 15, 2007)

I neither believe or not believe, kinda open minded you could say,

I'm more in tune with Ramsays posts tbh,

but.............

one thing I do notice is most of the non believers saying they don't like the

believers who ram there views down there throat, this is usually followed by

said non believer ramming there views down believers throat.

Go figure:lol:


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## goonerton (Sep 7, 2009)

Lostgeordie said:


> You need to read and understand the basis of the scientific principle.
> 
> I am saying that there is no evidence to support the existence of a God. If someone can demonstrate supportable evidence for the existence of a deity you will see the scientific community change stance. I don't think that this is about to happen.
> 
> Religious people say that the reason there is no proof is that proof denies faith. I say there is no proof for another more fundamental reason...


There is no proof of life on any other planet in the universe other than earth...What stance do scientists take on the possibility of life on other planets?

IMO whether you believe in a higher force/creator or not is just a hunch, same as whether you believe there is life elsewhere or not.


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## CoffeeFiend (Aug 31, 2010)

goonerton said:


> There is no proof of life on any other planet in the universe other than earth...What stance do scientists take on the possibility of life on other planets?
> 
> IMO whether you believe in a higher force/creator or not is just a hunch, same as whether you believe there is life elsewhere or not.


We know the conditions necessary for life and have found many stars suitable for forming earth like planets. We've actually found 2 earth like planets want to know why we're not that excited? With conventional engines they take about 2000 years to reach thats why.. Our planet has life on it, we've found other planets just like ours it is LOGICAL to assume life exists on planets similar to ours that revolve around stars similar to ours.

Assuming the existence of God doesnt follow the same process as questioning whether theres other life out there lol


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## Lostgeordie (Aug 2, 2006)

goonerton said:


> There is no proof of life on any other planet in the universe other than earth...What stance do scientists take on the possibility of life on other planets?
> 
> IMO whether you believe in a higher force/creator or not is just a hunch, same as whether you believe there is life elsewhere or not.


Life on other planets is based on Drake's equation, a mathematical formula of increasingly restrictive values which works out the possibility of life on other planets...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drake_equation

If you can show me a mathematical equation for the existence of God I'm all ears buddy!


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## goonerton (Sep 7, 2009)

Lostgeordie said:


> Life on other planets is based on Drake's equation, a mathematical formula of increasingly restrictive values which works out the possibility of life on other planets...
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drake_equation
> 
> If you can show me a mathematical equation for the existence of God I'm all ears buddy!


"Criticism of the Drake equation follows mostly from the observation that several terms in the equation are largely or entirely based on conjecture. Thus the equation cannot be used to draw firm conclusions of any kind. As T.J. Nelson states:[24]

The Drake equation consists of a large number of probabilities multiplied together. Since each factor is guaranteed to be somewhere between 0 and 1, the result is also guaranteed to be a reasonable-looking number between 0 and 1. Unfortunately, all the probabilities are completely unknown, making the result worse than useless."

Does my "mathmetical equation" regarding god`s existence need to be as conclusive as Drake`s?! :whistling:


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## rs007 (May 28, 2007)

Lostgeordie said:


> Life on other planets is based on Drake's equation, a mathematical formula of increasingly restrictive values which works out the possibility of life on other planets...
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drake_equation
> 
> If you can show me a mathematical equation for the existence of God I'm all ears buddy!


But - isn't drakes equation taking, dare I say it, a leap of faith :whistling:



You are spot on on science, how it works, but to close your mind to other possibilities, to not think outside the science goldfish bowl - even jsut for the sake of musing - I think you are blinkering yourself, missing out. Hell I could even argue it is unhealthy - after all, look what your brain does the first chance it gets when you remove conscious - it dreams.


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## Lostgeordie (Aug 2, 2006)

goonerton said:


> "Criticism of the Drake equation follows mostly from the observation that several terms in the equation are largely or entirely based on conjecture. Thus the equation cannot be used to draw firm conclusions of any kind. As T.J. Nelson states:[24]
> 
> The Drake equation consists of a large number of probabilities multiplied together. Since each factor is guaranteed to be somewhere between 0 and 1, the result is also guaranteed to be a reasonable-looking number between 0 and 1. Unfortunately, all the probabilities are completely unknown, making the result worse than useless."
> 
> Does my "mathmetical equation" regarding god`s existence need to be as conclusive as Drake`s?! :whistling:


Yes - it needs to be exactly as conclusive!

if you can come up with a number, any number, greater than 0 you're onto a winner!

Go nuts


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## KRS (Nov 27, 2008)

Lostgeordie said:


> If you can show me a mathematical equation for the existence of God I'm all ears buddy!


0 + 0 = 0


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## Lostgeordie (Aug 2, 2006)

rs007 said:


> But - isn't drakes equation taking, dare I say it, a leap of faith :whistling:
> 
> 
> 
> You are spot on on science, how it works, but to close your mind to other possibilities, to not think outside the science goldfish bowl - even jsut for the sake of musing - I think you are blinkering yourself, missing out. Hell I could even argue it is unhealthy - after all, look what your brain does the first chance it gets when you remove conscious - it dreams.


I actually don't think science is a goldfish bowl - I think it gives us a tool to question and explore anything you like! That's why scientific studies have been conducted into all sorts of stuff from psychics to homeopathic remedies to crystal healing. Much of science IS musing... that's how Hypotheses are formed... they are then tested, assuming they can be, and the results observed. I would argue that theoretical scientists are the kings of the musers!


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## Hendrix (Sep 16, 2009)

Why does it have to be god or evolution. Why can it not be both?


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## Dav1 (Sep 25, 2009)

I respect what others want to beleive in but don't appreciate others trying to force their views/beliefs on me, saying that I don't beleive that there is a god, my feelings are that there may be some form or overriding intelligence. I personally see too much perfection in nature and how the universe works to think that its all random. Much of what we base scientific facts on are not random but follow order.

I also think that many of the mainstream religions have distorted most of their better teachings, although Buddism in the main is very closely aligned to much of what science says.


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## CoffeeFiend (Aug 31, 2010)

rs007 said:


> But - isn't drakes equation taking, dare I say it, a leap of faith :whistling:
> 
> 
> 
> You are spot on on science, how it works, but to close your mind to other possibilities, to not think outside the science goldfish bowl - even jsut for the sake of musing - I think you are blinkering yourself, missing out. Hell I could even argue it is unhealthy - after all, look what your brain does the first chance it gets when you remove conscious - it dreams.


''Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic'' - Arthur C. Clarke's 3rd law of prediction

If you took a video recorder back in time people would assume it was some kind of witchcraft and not a product of scientific advancement. When we are presented with new things, things we dont understand we form two camps - Science and Religion

Religion - God did it end of.

Scientists - We're going to try and work this out. Ive got an idea. Oh that didnt work lets try another idea. Hey it works... Most unknown things have become known using science.

Religion on the other hand has done diddly squat


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## rs007 (May 28, 2007)

Lostgeordie said:


> I actually don't think science is a goldfish bowl - I think it gives us a tool to question and explore anything you like! That's why scientific studies have been conducted into all sorts of stuff from psychics to homeopathic remedies to crystal healing. Much of science IS musing... that's how Hypotheses are formed... they are then tested, assuming they can be, and the results observed. I would argue that theoretical scientists are the kings of the musers!


But they must always obey the rules, and dispose of which does not fit.

For example paranormal phenomena - and for the record I am a sceptic - but science can't measure it (perhaps its tools are not up to the job?) therefore it disregards it.

Throughout history there has been one trend in science/medicine AND religion - arrogance - and a complete inability to accept that maybe they got it wrong...

Just sayin'


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## goonerton (Sep 7, 2009)

CoffeeFiend said:


> We know the conditions necessary for life and have found many stars suitable for forming earth like planets. We've actually found 2 earth like planets want to know why we're not that excited? With conventional engines they take about 2000 years to reach thats why.. Our planet has life on it, we've found other planets just like ours it is LOGICAL to assume life exists on planets similar to ours that revolve around stars similar to ours.
> 
> Assuming the existence of God doesnt follow the same process as questioning whether theres other life out there lol


So it is logical to believe that because there are similar planets to ours and there is life here, then there must be life elsewhere, even though we have no evidence whatsoever of it.... Yet it is wildly illogical to believe that there is a possibility that a higher force created 'us' even though in reality we know next to nothing about our universe and have no idea even how it got here?

Hmmm


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## Lostgeordie (Aug 2, 2006)

rs007 said:


> But they must always obey the rules, and dispose of which does not fit.
> 
> For example paranormal phenomena - and for the record I am a sceptic - but science can't measure it (perhaps its tools are not up to the job?) therefore it disregards it.
> 
> ...


Out of interest which paranormal phenomena are you referring to? Do you mean so called "Ghosts / Phantoms" or are you referring to UFOs?

I would argue science is always willing to admit that it had it wrong previously, that's why we continue to challenge our understanding of the universe! Scientists know that they don't know it all and continue to strive to come up with testable hypotheses to improve our understanding in the universe.


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## CoffeeFiend (Aug 31, 2010)

goonerton said:


> So it is logical to believe that because there are similar planets to ours and there is life here, then there must be life elsewhere, even though we have no evidence whatsoever of it.... Yet it is wildly illogical to believe that there is a possibility that a higher force created 'us' even though in reality we know next to nothing about our universe and have no idea even how it got here?
> 
> Hmmm


Yes. Damn i love being conscise lol.


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## CoffeeFiend (Aug 31, 2010)

Lostgeordie said:


> Out of interest which paranormal phenomena are you referring to? Do you mean so called "Ghosts / Phantoms" or are you referring to UFOs?
> 
> I would argue science is always willing to admit that it had it wrong previously, that's why we continue to challenge our understanding of the universe! Scientists know that they don't know it all and continue to strive to come up with testable hypotheses to improve our understanding in the universe.


Religion also does bullsh!t its way along through history adapting itself subtly to the things science finds. We once believed the earth was the centre of the universe of everything infact, when we built our first proper telescopes and found other stars and planets the Vatican went ape**** and started changing all their rules for how they interpretted the bible etc. Really religion is sciences b!tch in the regard lol forever trying to catch up and invent new bull ready for the next new discovery.


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## KRS (Nov 27, 2008)

Lostgeordie said:


> Out of interest which paranormal phenomena are you referring to? Do you mean so called "Ghosts / Phantoms" or are you referring to UFOs?
> 
> I would argue science is always willing to admit that it had it wrong previously, that's why we continue to challenge our understanding of the universe! Scientists know that they don't know it all and continue to strive to come up with testable hypotheses to improve our understanding in the universe.


How about conscious observation collapsing the wave function during the double slit experiment?


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## goonerton (Sep 7, 2009)

Lostgeordie said:


> Yes - it needs to be exactly as conclusive!
> 
> if you can come up with a number, any number, greater than 0 you're onto a winner!
> 
> Go nuts


Drake`s equation was described by other scientists as "worse than useless" and "literally meaningless"

So in other words you want me to produce a similarly "useless" and unreliable equation that shows us the possibility of god`s existence?


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## Lostgeordie (Aug 2, 2006)

KRS said:


> How about conscious observation collapsing the wave function during the double slit experiment?


The process of measuring effects the behaviour of the particles / wave - on a wider note see Heisenberg's uncertainty principle.

It's homocentric to assume conscious observation has an impact, it's the measurement not the "conscious" part that has been shown to impact the results of the double slit experiment.


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## CoffeeFiend (Aug 31, 2010)

KRS said:


> How about conscious observation collapsing the wave function during the double slit experiment?


No idea what that experiement is so i shall have a read before i shoot my mouth off.

But in regard to paranormal phenomena in general just because we cant explain something now doesnt mean we wont be able to in time. Sticking a bed sheet over your head and running round town going woooohuhuhuhwoo was considered paranormal phenomena at one point until some clever spark made the discovery hey its some bell end in a bed sheet!

We may have more complex phenomena than that today to deal with but the principle is the same really.


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## Lostgeordie (Aug 2, 2006)

goonerton said:


> Drake`s equation was described by other scientists as "worse than useless" and "literally meaningless"
> 
> So in other words you want me to produce a similarly "useless" and unreliable equation that shows us the possibility of god`s existence?


You're missing the point. No one believes that Drake's equation is an accurate representation of the number of civilisations present in a galaxy. The fact that they were able to quantify any parameters that could lead to the conclusion is the point.

If you can come up with a mathematical equation EXACTLY as useful as Drake's equation you will be able to question our understanding of the universe and creationism at a fundamental level.


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## KRS (Nov 27, 2008)

CoffeeFiend said:


> No idea what that experiement is so i shall have a read before i shoot my mouth off.
> 
> But in regard to paranormal phenomena in general just because we cant explain something now doesnt mean we wont be able to in time. Sticking a bed sheet over your head and running round town going woooohuhuhuhwoo was considered paranormal phenomena at one point until some clever spark made the discovery hey its some bell end in a bed sheet!
> 
> We may have more complex phenomena than that today to deal with but the principle is the same really.


You'l love it.


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## Squeeeze (Oct 2, 2007)

Quick question for any god bothering types.

I get the impression from religion that god wants us to believe. If this is true why does he/she/it hide him/her/it self?

I'm guessing a stock answer would be to prove faith. But that doesn't make sense because if this god showed itself it would have absolute faith from everyone on the plant. Why does it require blind faith?


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## goonerton (Sep 7, 2009)

CoffeeFiend said:


> Yes. Damn i love being conscise lol.


If science has no idea how the universe got here , how can anyone say with any degree of certainty that it wasn`t created by a higher/ paranormal force?

You can go off on as many scientific tangents as you like and produce endless equations(don`t myself have any scientific knowledge TBH) but I`ll bet you cannot produce anything remotely credible that tells us how we(the universe) got here.

So until then, your belief that there is no creator/god is nothing more than hunch. Same as those that believe there is or could be.


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## Ironclad (Jun 23, 2009)

Lostgeordie said:


> As far as I can tell buddhism is the only truly benign religion- at least in my experience.


No better than the rest. It's just more metaphysical nonsense that allows suffering to go on without real justification. It is falsely believed by Western hippies that Buddhism is free of violence, it is not. Sadly.

Ba'hai is the only true peaceful system there is, that I am aware of.


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## Lostgeordie (Aug 2, 2006)

goonerton said:


> If science has no idea how the universe got here , how can anyone say with any degree of certainty that it wasn`t created by a higher/ paranormal force?
> 
> You can go off on as many scientific tangents as you like and produce endless equations(don`t myself have any scientific knowledge TBH) but I`ll bet you cannot produce anything remotely credible that tells us how we(the universe) got here.
> 
> So until then, your belief that there is no creator/god is nothing more than hunch. Same as those that believe there is or could be.


That's just not how science works.

You hypothesis that there IS a God! testing and proving that is the responsibility of those that espouse that belief.

Science espouses a number of theories about the birth of the universe, big bang theory, inflation theory, dark matter etc. We strive to test and prove or disprove these hypotheses.

Take responsibility and try and prove the things your prepared to say to other people. If you're not prepared to do that then keep your faith internal and you'll not have to deal with these mad scientist types...


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## goonerton (Sep 7, 2009)

Lostgeordie said:


> You're missing the point. No one believes that Drake's equation is an accurate representation of the number of civilisations present in a galaxy. *The fact that they were able to quantify any parameters that could lead to the conclusion is the point.*
> 
> If you can come up with a mathematical equation EXACTLY as useful as Drake's equation you will be able to question our understanding of the universe and creationism at a fundamental level.


As I said i have no science background but from what I gather his parameters were not actually quantifiable(correct me if I`m wrong)?

I thought that was the reason his peers dismissed his results as "worse than useless"

So in layman`s terms you are asking me to produce something that is completely useless and unreliable to suggest that god exists, then I can question your understanding of the universe ?? :confused1:


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## Lostgeordie (Aug 2, 2006)

Witch-King said:


> No better than the rest. It's just more metaphysical nonsense that allows suffering to go on without real justification. It is falsely believed by Western hippies that Buddhism is free of violence, it is not. Sadly.
> 
> Ba'hai is the only true peaceful system there is, that I am aware of.


You could well be right, I'm quite prepared to accept that I don't know enough about Buddhism. I do know a couple of hippy types that follow it as you say in the Western style... somewhat romanticised I suspect.

I've heard of Ba'Hai but know very little about it... I smell a google search coming on!


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## Lostgeordie (Aug 2, 2006)

goonerton said:


> As I said i have no science background but from what I gather his parameters were not actually quantifiable(correct me if I`m wrong)?
> 
> I thought that was the reason his peers dismissed his results as "worse than useless"
> 
> So in layman`s terms you are asking me to produce something that is completely useless and unreliable to suggest that god exists, then I can question your understanding of the universe ?? :confused1:


His parameters ARE quantifiable but the conclusion it leads you to is relatively meaningless. It's the fact that he has quantifiable parameters that gives it any scientific merit. If you really could do the same with God's existence I reckon you'd change the world - truly

You don't need to question my understanding of the universe, I do that myself everyday! If religious people did the same we'd be living in a VERY different world!


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## goonerton (Sep 7, 2009)

Lostgeordie said:


> That's just not how science works.
> 
> You hypothesis that there IS a God! testing and proving that is the responsibility of those that espouse that belief.
> 
> ...


Don`t think I actually told you what my "faith" is(could be wrong)

I am just saying IMO considering science has no real answers as to how we got here, it has no right to categorically tell people there cannot be a god...


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## Lostgeordie (Aug 2, 2006)

goonerton said:


> Don`t think I actually told you what my "faith" is(could be wrong)
> 
> I am just saying IMO considering science has no real answers as to how we got here, it has no right to categorically tell people there cannot be a god...


Again, and for the last time, science does NOT say that there cannot be a God - please understand that.

Science says that there is no evidence to support the existence of a God.


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## CoffeeFiend (Aug 31, 2010)

goonerton said:


> Don`t think I actually told you what my "faith" is(could be wrong)
> 
> I am just saying IMO considering science has no real answers as to how we got here, it has no right to categorically tell people there cannot be a god...


What is your faith/religion out of interest? Your train of arguments seem to suggest you believe in a god so would guess your Christian or possibly Sikh or Muslim? Just wondering.. doesnt have any relevence on our debates either way


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## goonerton (Sep 7, 2009)

Lostgeordie said:


> His parameters ARE quantifiable but the conclusion it leads you to is relatively meaningless. It's the fact that he has quantifiable parameters that gives it any scientific merit. If you really could do the same with God's existence I reckon you'd change the world - truly
> 
> You don't need to question my understanding of the universe, I do that myself everyday! If religious people did the same we'd be living in a VERY different world!


This is what one his peers said

"The problem, of course, is that none of the terms can be known, and most cannot even be estimated. The only way to work the equation is to fill in with guesses"

Excuse my ignorance but would you mind explaining how having to fill in a equation with guesses equals an equation with quantifiable parameters??

I


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## goonerton (Sep 7, 2009)

Lostgeordie said:


> Again, and for the last time, science does NOT say that there cannot be a God - please understand that.
> 
> Science says that there is no evidence to support the existence of a God.


Thats fair enough. Science also has no evidence to support the existence of life on other planets.

Science doesn`t have all the answers after all.


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## Lostgeordie (Aug 2, 2006)

goonerton said:


> This is what one his peers said
> 
> "The problem, of course, is that none of the terms can be known, and most cannot even be estimated. The only way to work the equation is to fill in with guesses"
> 
> ...


Okay let's take some of his parameters:

He says:

R* = the average rate of star formation per year in our galaxy

fp = the fraction of those stars that have planets

ne = the average number of planets that can potentially support life per star that has planets

fℓ = the fraction of the above that actually go on to develop life at some point

fi = the fraction of the above that actually go on to develop intelligent life

fc = the fraction of civilizations that develop a technology that releases detectable signs of their existence into space

L = the length of time for which such civilizations release detectable signals into space

As parameters there is an answer to every one of these questions - therefore they are quantifiable. The fact that we currently don't know the answers to these questions does not make the parameters unquantifiable.

Imagine you were omniscient and could see everything in the universe - you would be able to put numbers on each of these parameters and do the maths - job done.

if you can come up with something similar for the existence of God, whether we're able to generate a number for it now or not, as long as it's a measurable, quantifiable parameter - you can generate a hypothesis that could be tested in the future.


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## Lostgeordie (Aug 2, 2006)

goonerton said:


> Thats fair enough. Science also has no evidence to support the existence of life on other planets.
> 
> Science doesn`t have all the answers after all.


Agreed - Science does not have all the answers and never will... but it has the potential to have all the answers thanks to the basic scientific principle.

Science DOES have evidence to support the existence of life on other planets. Life on THIS planet is evidence for life on other planets!

We don't know which planets and where they are but there are real tangible things that lead us to these conclusions.

There is no such evidence to support the existence of God.


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## Raptor (Feb 16, 2010)

The person / people who wrote the bible may as well put one of these hats on and do this:


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## goonerton (Sep 7, 2009)

Lostgeordie said:


> Okay let's take some of his parameters:
> 
> He says:
> 
> ...


Not being funny mate but if all the answers to those questions are known(making the parameters quantifiable) why did one of his peers say

"*The problem, of course, is that none of the terms can be known, and most cannot even be estimated*."

?

I think you are trying to take advantage of my lack of scientific knowledge here... :lol:


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## Lostgeordie (Aug 2, 2006)

I promise you I am not!

The reasoning behind that statement is extremely simple. We don't know how many planets can support life yet. Therefore the number to input into the equation is not known. We also can't guess at the number in any kind of meaningful way. When we DO know the answers, the parameters remain valid and we will have numbers to add into the equation. He is not naming any arbitrary constants so every one of his parameters is "knowable" it's simply that we don't know them yet. That's what the critics of the equation mean.


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## goonerton (Sep 7, 2009)

Ok well lets just take the top question:

"R* = the average rate of star formation per year in our galaxy"

What is the widely agreed upon/accepted "average" rate of new stars formed in our galaxy??


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## neonlinux (Jan 8, 2011)

I was a full scale atheist till we had our first child. Now I am borderline agnostic. I hope and now like to think their is something beyond us. Perhaps love for my children gets in the way of logic. IDK, I just hope there is something.


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## Lostgeordie (Aug 2, 2006)

goonerton said:
 

> Ok well lets just take the top question:
> 
> "R* = the average rate of star formation per year in our galaxy"
> 
> What is the widely agreed upon/accepted "average" rate of new stars formed in our galaxy??


We don't know the number yet, but it's possible, in the future to know the number. We DO know that new stars form, the rate at which they form is to be worked out.

As our knowledge of the universe grows we WILL be able to put values on these parameters. It doesn't matter that we don't know them yet.

Give me any parameter that could be used in an equation to prove the existence of a deity of any kind...

There are currently NO parameters that can be used to prove the existence of God.


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## Lostgeordie (Aug 2, 2006)

neonlinux said:


> I was a full scale atheist till we had our first child. Now I am borderline agnostic. I hope and now like to think their is something beyond us. Perhaps love for my children gets in the way of logic. IDK, I just hope there is something.


I can totally understand this.

Instincts fire from the Amygdala which is a primal part of the brain. Nurturing and protective instincts towards a child are extremely powerful in mammals and in humans particularly. This, in my opinion, is a very positive thing! The human race needs those nurturing instincts!

Logic and higher brain functions occur in the more recently developed areas of the brain. The former can easily overpower the latter.

I think this is a very honest and very understandable view point.

I don't condemn anyone for their faith - not at all. However if you're prepared to tell people that God exists you need to be able to back yourself up with some sort of evidence. We expect the same from Scientists on all hypotheses they come up with.


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## Squeeeze (Oct 2, 2007)

Lostgeordie said:


> We don't know the number yet, but it's possible, in the future to know the number. We DO know that new stars form, the rate at which they form is to be worked out.
> 
> As our knowledge of the universe grows we WILL be able to put values on these parameters. It doesn't matter that we don't know them yet.
> 
> ...


..and never will have parameters as you can't discover anything about something that doesn't exist.


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## cellaratt (Jul 16, 2008)

What if going to heaven is a form of evolution..?


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## Lostgeordie (Aug 2, 2006)

cellaratt said:


> What if going to heaven is a form of evolution..?


You mean like some sort of "ascension"?

What leads you to ask that question?


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## Ken Hutchinson (May 29, 2009)

cellaratt said:


> What if going to heaven is a form of evolution..?


I do believe that our spirit/soul goes somewhere else, i hope it is heaven that would be nice, there is more to life than meets the eye.


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## goonerton (Sep 7, 2009)

Lostgeordie said:


> We don't know the number yet, but it's possible, in the future to know the number. We DO know that new stars form, the rate at which they form is to be worked out.
> 
> As our knowledge of the universe grows we WILL be able to put values on these parameters. It doesn't matter that we don't know them yet.
> 
> ...


So in other words the parameters are not quantifiable , one day they may be , then again maybe not??

So basically to match your equation I need to come up with a set of parameters that are currently unquantifiable but as my knowledge grows I can 'assure' you the answers will be known in the future, then just fill in the blanks until then with answers that lead to the conclusion that god DOES exist!!...

Are there CURRENTLY any parameters to prove there is life on other planets?


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## Lostgeordie (Aug 2, 2006)

goonerton said:


> So in other words the parameters are not quantifiable , one day they may be , then again maybe not??
> 
> So basically to match your equation I need to come up with a set of parameters that are currently unquantifiable but as my knowledge grows I can 'assure' you the answers will be known in the future, then just fill in the blanks until then with answers that lead to the conclusion that god DOES exist!!...
> 
> Are there CURRENTLY any parameters to prove there is life on other planets?


I think you're misunderstanding the word quantifiable.

It simply means that it is possible to come up with a number to answer the question. We can't do it today but we know that we WILL be able to do it because we have evidence of star formations in the galaxy etc. It's simply a matter of time before we have the answer to that question. Over time the parameters will become known and Drake's equation will become meaningful in terms of it's output.

The point about religion is that there isn't even have a set of questions yet, the answers to which would prove (or disprove) the existence of God.

The point is that there are no such parameters... even with a load of wild cards in there...


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## rs007 (May 28, 2007)

Basically, scientists BELIEVE that the numbers for those variables will one day be known.

People choose to BELIEVE whether there is intelligent life out there or not.

In fact, unless a person has been in a lab and proved it for themselves, they are BELIEVING everything they have been told previously.

At the end of the day, it's either all bullsh1t, or none of it is, and it only serves as a mere distraction in your brief time on this rock anyway - you leave it the same way you came in.


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## Lostgeordie (Aug 2, 2006)

rs007 said:


> At the end of the day, it's all bullsh1t, or none of it is, and only serves as a mere distraction in your time on this rock anyway - you leave it the same way you came in.


I sort of agree... but I'm glad that mankind challenges itself to keep looking at the building blocks of the universe and answer the big questions... one day I hope that there is a Grand Unified Theory that just explains everything... then we can relax and go down the gym!


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## rs007 (May 28, 2007)

Lostgeordie said:


> I sort of agree... but I'm glad that mankind challenges itself to keep looking at the building blocks of the universe and answer the big questions... one day I hope that there is a Grand Unified Theory that just explains everything... then we can relax and go down the gym!


Now I'll drink to that :thumbup1:

My sideways thinking on the matter - just one of my daydreams - is to imagine a cardboard box in the middle of a warehouse of cardboard boxes.

Everything we perceive to exist, exists inside that box. All our rules and things we think we know work, exist only inside that box. We are completely unaware of the existance of anything outside our box, and believe thoroughly that our scientific rules are infallible. Sitting there all nice and comfy/cocky/arrogant/blissfully ignorant (delete as appropriate) completely unaware - unable to comprehend even - that outside of our box there are an infinite other amount of boxes, and in those, our rules are worthless. And then there is the space between the boxes. Here be dragons :lol:

I enjoy thinking about all sorts of stuff like that, and have done since as young as I can remember. Its prob why I want to get into fiction if I can, if I am good enough, because unlike most that make the transition from child to adult, I have kept my imagination every bit as vivid as it was when I WAS young.

Now, most of you science types will think that very wasteful of brain cells, and most of you religious type will think that thought blasphemous :lol:

But I disagree on both counts 

But hey, science is awesome,right? "I can guide a missile by satellite" :lol:

Yup sure is awesome

(rs puts spoon away :lol: )


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## goonerton (Sep 7, 2009)

Lostgeordie said:


> I think you're misunderstanding the word quantifiable.
> 
> It simply means that it is possible to come up with a number to answer the question. We can't do it today but we know that we WILL be able to do it because we have evidence of star formations in the galaxy etc. It's simply a matter of time before we have the answer to that question. Over time the parameters will become known and Drake's equation will become meaningful in terms of it's output.
> 
> ...


I was under the impression that in this context quantifiable meant we had accurate estimates to input, thus giving us "quantifiable parameters" But in fact we don`t have accurate estimates now and we may never have in the future.

Why do you think "its simply a matter of time". there is every chance as a species we will be long gone from this universe before we know a 10th of how it works...

You could ask exactly the same questions re god, i.e how many planets are there divided by how many stars/gods, blah blah.

Science may say that because there is evidence that there is life on at least one planet and no scientific evidence of god , that makes it more probable scientifically that there is life on another planet than that there is a god.

But as we already know how little scientists really know about the universe, IMO that still doesn`t give much of an answer as to whether or not there is a god.


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## Dav1 (Sep 25, 2009)

rs007 thats quite a good analogy and easy to understand for simpletons like me lol. Maybe we are not able to see the ultimate truths as our level of intelligence just does not allow us to comprehend it.

Just out of fun as I don't pretend to understand this stuff I searched the all knowing internet and came up with the mathematical equation for God lol.

http://webspace.webring.com/people/eg/george_hammond/mathweb.html


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## WaxOnWaxOff (Mar 11, 2010)

KRS said:


> Scientology offers loads of evidence to support its claims, its the validity of that evidence which is open to question.
> 
> Science alone doesn't do anything, it is an instrument of knowledge. There is no bias with science only with scientist who uses the knowledge to test his hypothesis.
> 
> ...


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## WaxOnWaxOff (Mar 11, 2010)

KRS said:


> In the law, *testimony is a form of evidence* that is obtained from a witness who makes a solemn statement or declaration of fact.
> 
> I believe in Xenu, that is my testimony.
> 
> Want me to swear on a Battlefield Earth?


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## CJ (Apr 24, 2006)

I've been thinking about this thread since it started.

I think I want to believe, and like the thought of something bigger out there, but with so much hurt in the world I just don't know.

That said, I pray most evenings for my wife and 2 boys and also found comfort in praying to God when my new born son was in intensive care for the first 10 weeks of his life ( he's a strapping 7 year old lad now )

Funny, I think this is the first time I ever told anyone I pray !!!!


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## WaxOnWaxOff (Mar 11, 2010)

KRS said:


> Who said magic fills the rest?
> 
> All I've said is, accepted scientific fact is always subject to revision. The Newtonian Physics which allowed us to accurately predict the movement of the planets is theoretically wrong. We still use and teach Newtonian Physics because its "good enough" to get the job done.


Say what?


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## TH0R (Aug 15, 2007)

Too all the "science is the answer"

I would like you to go back a few hundred years, say 20 years before Magellan for instance,

If there was a similar forum back then, ie a few meat heads discussing science, imagine a

bloke called Ken asking

"I think the world is round"

Probably would of got a similar reaction that your giving now, stating facts etc

There is no Black or White, why is that hard to percieve??

Are you telling me every scientist is a non christian?

I'll reiterate, I am sceptical either way, I think Rupert Murdoch is probably God tbh.

Before any clever a55es say, I realise some history says the world was discovered

to be spherical in varying centuries, from the 9th to the 16th  , or possibly even

before (was quoted in Bible I think??)


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## TH0R (Aug 15, 2007)

CJones said:


> I've been thinking about this thread since it started.
> 
> I think I want to believe, and like the thought of something bigger out there, but with so much hurt in the world I just don't know.
> 
> ...


This just about sums it up for me, without God there is no hope IMO

I do hope there is a God (sounds ludicrous, I know) but without God

all the bicep boys who hog the squat rack will go unpunished:sad:


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## Marshan (Aug 27, 2010)

If there ever was a god he wouldve topped himself by now out of boredom...who would hang around 15 billion years with so little to do only watch us evolving? Nuts.


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## SiPhil (Jun 16, 2010)

mixerD1 said:


> If there ever was a god he wouldve topped himself by now out of boredom...who would hang around 15 billion years with so little to do only watch us evolving? Nuts.


If you listen to Christians he created the universe and is still creating it. Only about half a trillion galaxies finished, each with 10's-100's of billions or trillions of stars. Another half a trillion galaxies to create, so how can he be bored? Busy bloke.


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## TmcG (Feb 15, 2010)

Neg repped im sorry i did not mean to offend the Hermaphrodite people out there you know who you are


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## Tommy10 (Feb 17, 2009)

CJones said:


> I've been thinking about this thread since it started.
> 
> I think I want to believe, and like the thought of something bigger out there, but with so much hurt in the world I just don't know.
> 
> ...


when you look at a new born baby, the miracle of childbirth.......u see Gods work at its finest


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