# Trying to lose some fat? Read this! Best way to lose fat and not lose muscle!



## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

I typed this up from a book by Atkins. It took some time and there are probably typing errors but bear in mind the information is accurate. I knew that high fat, low carbohydrate diets did produce rapid weight loss but did not have any study groups to compare too.

Fat burning

Lets look at some research that supports the fat burning theory, this time from the Oakland Navel Hospital. Impressed with the Kekwick and Pawan success, Frederick Beoit and his associates decided to compare a 1000 calorie, 10-grams-of-carbohydrate, high-fat diet with fasting. Using seven men weighing between 230 and 290 pounds. They used state of the art body composition technology. After ten days, the fasting subjects lost 21 pounds on average, but most of that was lean body weight; only 7.5 pounds was body fat. However on the controlled carbohydrate regimen over the same period of time, 10 of the 14.5 pounds lost was body fat. Think of it. By eating foods low in carbohydrate and high in dietary fat, subjects burned their fat stores almost twice as fast as when they ate nothing at all!

Benoit's other exciting discovery was that on a fat burning regimen, subjects maintained their potassium levels, while subjects who fasted experienced major potassium losses. (potassium depletion can cause heart arrhythmia, which in severe cases, can be fatal.)

Still not convinced? Try this one. Charlotte Young, professor of clinical nutrition at Cornell University, compared the results of overweight young men placed on three diets, all providing 1800 calories, but with varying degrees of carbohydrate restriction. The regimens contained 30, 60, and 104 grams of carbohydrate, and subjects followed them for nine weeks. Young and her colleagues calculated body fat through a widely accepted technique involving immersion underwater.

Those on the 104 grams of carbs lost slightly better than 2 pounds of fat per week out of 2.73 pounds of total weight loss-not bad for 1800 calories.

Those on 60 grams of carbs lost nearly 2.5 pounds of fat per week out of 3 pounds of actual weight loss-better.

But those on 30 grams of carbs, the only situation that produced lipolysis and the secondary process of ketosis lost 3.73 pounds of fat per week approximately one hundred percent of their total weight loss.

Several other studies have shown that you can consume more calories and lose more weight than on low fat programs.

One study done in Glasgow described overweight women who after three months had lost 14.5 pounds on a thirty-five-percent carbohydrate diet of 1200 calories and 12.3 pounds on a fifty-eight percent carbohydrate diet of 1200 calories. That's fairly slow weight loss and pretty strict caloric deprivation. The advantage went to the lower-carbohydrate diet as always, but the lesson is that stricter carbohydrate control makes for an even more successful weight loss plan.

Two facts should be noted: first, in all cases, the lower carbohydrate group did lose more weight than the higher-carbohydrate group. Second, in two of the studies cardiovascular risk factors improved significantly but only in the subjects who were on a lower carbohydrate intake. The folks who got put on a high-carbohydrate diet showed no significant improvements in these health indicatiors.

That leaves one last study, which was really a blowout. Published in the Journal of Adolescent Health in 2000, it reported on a group of obese adolescents put on a controlled carbohydrate diet with no restriction on calories for three months and meticulously monitored throughout that period. By design the regimen was based on the Atkins approach. The group was compared with a control group put on a low fat diet.

The results? Well, naturally the adolescents lost significantly more weight on the controlled carbohydrate diet than on the low fat diet. The written records indicated that at the end of the trial the adolescents in the controlled carbohydrate group had averaged 1830 calories daily, while the adolescents in the low fat group had consumed 1100 calories. The controlled carbohydrate group averaged 21.7 pounds lost, compared to 9.1 pounds for the low-fat group, and a significant improvement in body mass index (BMI), compared with the low-fat dieters.

As studies like this become increasingly common, opposition to a controlled carbohydrate nutritional approach should fall away even more quickly than has already been the case in recent years.


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

Very nice Scottie. That is some good reading. It is the same stuff we keep saying. When it comes to diet it is your choice of carbs and the lack there of. Once agian fat is your friend not the enemy. 

Unless it is a female, you can only be friends.


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## Greyphantom (Oct 23, 2003)

Very similar to the body opus diet or the ketosis diet... much prefer the body opus myself as you can eat what you like on the weekends...lol... mmmm simple carbs...


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## robin_3_16 (Aug 27, 2003)

so basically don't eat much carbs but eat whatever the f u c k else you want and you won't lose muscle just fat,

does it matter what types of fats you eat?


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## Greyphantom (Oct 23, 2003)

Yes it does Robin... try to stick to the efas and the like...


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## robin_3_16 (Aug 27, 2003)

efas?

god sorry i know nothing!


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

Essential fatty acids. Actually Robin it dosn't matter. Just back off on the carbs and eat what ever you want.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Like winger said, it does not really matter and only eat like 20 grams of carbs a day total. You can have as much cheese, bacon, eggs, meat, chicken, pork rinds you want. The weight will fall off fast, really fast. It takes about 3 days to slip into ketosis but once you are in you will shed fat quick.


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## robin_3_16 (Aug 27, 2003)

wow thats a good diet i might have to wait til abit older and buy my own food because my mom will go mad when i only want chicken and meat and cheese etc

but as long as it is only 20g carbs it doesn't matter what you eat!

sounds like my kind of diet!


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## turbo (Nov 23, 2003)

Umm.. the famous Atkins diet, famed for giving people high colesteral whilst making them very lathargic/workout. Shame Dr Atkins died last year of heart problems not least agrevated because he was clinically abese.

Im more of a fan of low-fat diets, keeping the carbs for energy and protien high, same as Arnie advocates. Sure, fat is more calorie dense (9cal per 1g), as opposed to the 4cal per 1g of carbs or protien but the brain & body prefers carbs to fat as its energy source.

Each to their own. If you want to loose weight quickly, then atkins does work. I saw some tests where they got a whole load of people and stuck half them on atkins and half on other diets. In the first 2 weeks the atkins ones lost more weight. But, by the 4 week marker, all the diets had lost exactly the same amount.


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

turbo said:


> Umm.. the famous Atkins diet, famed for giving people high colesteral whilst making them very lathargic/workout. Shame Dr Atkins died last year of heart problems not least agrevated because he was clinically abese.
> 
> Im more of a fan of low-fat diets, keeping the carbs for energy and protien high, same as Arnie advocates. Sure, fat is more calorie dense (9cal per 1g), as opposed to the 4cal per 1g of carbs or protien but the brain & body prefers carbs to fat as its energy source.
> 
> Each to their own. If you want to loose weight quickly, then atkins does work. I saw some tests where they got a whole load of people and stuck half them on atkins and half on other diets. In the first 2 weeks the atkins ones lost more weight. But, by the 4 week marker, all the diets had lost exactly the same amount.


Sorry Turbo but that is false. The Atkins diet lost more fat than all the other diets. In fact initially the cholesterol did go up at the beginning of the diet then their cholesterol levels lowered dramaticaly. Carbs do give energy but from my experiance if you take to many carbs in or the wrong carbs they will make you tired because of elevated blood sugar and spiking of insulin. With limited carbs you actually feel better.

Atkins died in April last year from a head injury he sustained after falling on an icy New York footpath.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

He was considered obese because the gain of 60 lbs of water weight from being on an IV in the hospital. He was not overweight when he went into the hospital for brain problems from the fall. It was his critiques that had staged all the misinformation about him to discredit him. Lots of case studys that prove you can lose more fat on high fat diets than high carb diets. If you do want proof then I will spend a night and type up the articles. They were performed by Dr. at acredited hospitals. That was proved by his own people. Atkins himself was a DR. Barry Sears is a Dr. and has a phd and he suggests that obesity in the world today is from processed foods and too much carbohydrate consumption. I know people are opionated about diets and routines but if you keep an open mind to things you just might learn something.


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## turbo (Nov 23, 2003)

hackskii said:


> I know people are opionated about diets and routines but if you keep an open mind to things you just might learn something.


Which i do. I spend a huge amount of time researching stuff on the net & in books and so I know my subjects very well.

As I said, the Atkins diet does work, but in the tests I saw, over a 4 week period it wasnt any better, and from the research I did into diets, i personally dont like the high fat diets.

But, again, as i said, each to their own.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

If it is weight loss then it is weight loss. Not all weight loss is the same. The last thing you want to do is lose lean muscle mass. Case studies I have read tell me that there better muscle sparring on high fat low carb diets than lowering the calories.

But some people have no problems with carbs. Some people do have a problem with carbs and that is about 1/3 the population. You might be one of the lucky ones that can eat all the carbs you want. I am not one of those individules. I was 20 years ago but not now. The older I get the smarter on the diet I have to be. I only wanted to lose like 15 lbs before summer. Then I was going to go on another cycle. I feel good, but the nuts are kindof smaller than normal and it was over 8 weeks sinse last jab. Not concerned yet but dont want to start another cycle without the nuts back.

There is an article in the article section by GreyPhantom on fats.

http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/showthread.php?t=1950

Here is a snip form that.

If you think carbohydrates are the best fuel for muscles and help them grow the fastest, think again!

Al: Dr. Ellis, is there really any debate at all? Everyone knows that carbohydrates are what bodybuilders need, right?

Ellis: Despite what everyone thinks, carbohydrates are not the preferred energy source for the body. Fat is. The common belief that carbohydrates are used most often and provide the best calories for powering muscle contraction is erroneous.

Another snip:

I don't think that bodybuilders, or anyone else in regular training, need to worry about cholesterol, unless the values begin to exceed 275 mg. Most other people could easily maintain normal, healthy levels by reducing their overweight, over-fat condition.

I think the threshold for dietary carbohydrate reduction to make a positive effect in increasing muscle mass and decreasing body fat begins when carbohydrate intake is reduced to a level lower than 25% of total daily calorie intake. I believe that this level is still too high to realize optimal benefit. I also do not know if 0% carbohydrate intake is more effective than, say, 10% or 15% of daily carbohydrate intake as a caloric percentage of the whole day's calorie intake.

Many people argue against a high-protein diet as dangerous to the function of the liver and kidneys. There is absolutely no research to support this belief, and in fact, there is an abundance of research indicating that a high-protein diet is very effective in improving liver function. Too often, in the area of nutrition, many studies are don on sick individuals, and there are too few studies on athletes.


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## robdog (Dec 2, 2003)

i can see your point hackskki but havent atkins just changed there stance on some of their theories regarding lots off fat. i only saw a snip-it of the report on the news so please forgive me if im wrong. also for a quick fat loss atkins does seem the way to go but i wouldnt want to eat like that for very long because surley its not all that healthy. wouldnt a balanced diet with perhaps lower carbs be better. please forgive my ignorance but im not that clues up on diets etc. cheers


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Again, some people have problems with carbs and some dont. Robdog, you might have problems with carbs. Fats got a bad rap. They are unhealthy when taken with high carb diets. High fat and high carb are a big no no. Reducing the carbs or better yet, reducing the carbs and what carbs you take in are low on the glycemic index (GI) are even more preferred. If you got away from the breads and pastas and rice and sugar while dieting you probably would lose some weight all by itself. Now if you have to eat a carb then take it with a fat, or protein, or a fiber, or all together would be the best. Bottom line is this: fat does not make you fat. Fat unless in massive doses dont store as fat Carbs do. I will take it a step further. If you ate some high glycemic carbs by itself even thought the amount was moderatly low that still can be stored as fat. This is depending on the individule though. About 1/3 of the population have problems with carbs and 1/3 of the population dont have problems. The 1/3 in the middle will have problems if they eat too much of them.

Fats wont kill you. Fats are your friend. High carbs and high fats together will kill you though. When you go on a cutting cycle then try just lowering the carbs and see what happens.

I dont know of any body builders that dont cut carbs when cutting "NOT EVEN ONE!"

Still not satisfied about fats check this out!

Cholesterol is made constantly in the liver and is essential for life itself. It is the precursor for the male and female sex hormones and the adrenal cortical hormones as well. The body uses cholesterol to make these hormones.

Oh yah, I really want a low cholesterol diet huh? ......NOT!


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

The early observations of Arctic explorers that the Eskimos, despite a very high fat diet, rarely had coronary heart disease was buttressed by Dyerberg and Bang, two Danish scientists who explored the prevalence of heart disease in Greenland Eskimos (1,2). They found that the Greenland Eskimos had a much lower rate of coronary heart disease than Danes living side by side with them in Greenland . The Danes, of course, ate the Western diet, high in cholesterol and saturated fat, and had a high incidence of coronary heart disease, whereas the Eskimos ate their traditional diet from the sea: fish, whale and seal. Dyerberg and Bang pointed to the difference in the kind of fat which the Eskimos ate compared to the Danes. The Eskimos were consuming the n-3 fatty acids with high concentrations of EPA (eicosapentaenoic acid) and DHA (docosahexaenoic acid). These fatty acids are very long chain and highly polyunsaturated, quite different from the saturated fat found in the Danish diet. Later, the Eskimos were found to have high blood levels of EPA and DHA. These fatty acids seemed to produce an anti-blood clotting effect as well.

You guys need to do your homework. Your body produces cholesterol. If your mom and dad (like mine) have had heart attacks due to plaque in the arteries then you need to do something about it. My advice (which is free) take fish oils and red rice yeast. I could take it to the next level but I will wait till I recheck my cholesterol levels to prove myself. Turbo please keep an open mind. We are not saying that you are not informed. But the information that you read is the exact opposite of what we are telling you. Dont take it personal. If the studies are not backed by a double blind studies with plasebo then they are not worth reading. I heard you can get worts from a toad, get my drift.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Cholesterol acts as a precursor to vital corticosteroids, hormones that help us deal with stress and protect the body against heart disease and cancer; and to the sex hormones like androgen, testosterone, estrogen and progesterone.

Cholesterol is a precursor to vitamin D, a very important fat-soluble vitamin needed for healthy bones and nervous system, proper growth, mineral metabolism, muscle tone, insulin production, reproduction and immune system function.

The bile salts are made from cholesterol. Bile is vital for digestion and assimilation of fats in the diet.

Recent research shows that cholesterol acts as an antioxidant. This is the likely explanation for the fact that cholesterol levels go up with age. As an antioxidant, cholesterol protects us against free radical damage that leads to heart disease and cancer.

Cholesterol is needed for proper function of serotonin receptors in the brain. Serotonin is the body's natural "feel-good" chemical. Low cholesterol levels have been linked to aggressive and violent behavior, depression and suicidal tendencies.

Mother's milk is especially rich in cholesterol and contains a special enzyme that helps the baby utilize this nutrient. Babies and children need cholesterol-rich foods throughout their growing years to ensure proper development of the brain and nervous system.

Dietary cholesterol plays an important role in maintaining the health of the intestinal wall. This is why low-cholesterol vegetarian diets can lead to leaky gut syndrome and other intestinal disorders.

Cholesterol is not the cause of heart disease but rather a potent antioxidant weapon against free radicals in the blood, and a repair substance that helps heal arterial damage (although the arterial plaques themselves contain very little cholesterol.)


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## turbo (Nov 23, 2003)

hackskii said:


> Again, some people have problems with carbs and some dont. Robdog, you might have problems with carbs. Fats got a bad rap. They are unhealthy when taken with high carb diets. High fat and high carb are a big no no. Reducing the carbs or better yet, reducing the carbs and what carbs you take in are low on the glycemic index (GI) are even more preferred. If you got away from the breads and pastas and rice and sugar while dieting you probably would lose some weight all by itself. Now if you have to eat a carb then take it with a fat, or protein, or a fiber, or all together would be the best. Bottom line is this: fat does not make you fat. Fat unless in massive doses dont store as fat Carbs do. I will take it a step further. If you ate some high glycemic carbs by itself even thought the amount was moderatly low that still can be stored as fat. This is depending on the individule though. About 1/3 of the population have problems with carbs and 1/3 of the population dont have problems. The 1/3 in the middle will have problems if they eat too much of them.
> 
> Fats wont kill you. Fats are your friend. High carbs and high fats together will kill you though. When you go on a cutting cycle then try just lowering the carbs and see what happens.
> 
> ...


Sounds like you are getting confused there. Or have some radical new ideas that high fat & high cholesterol is good for you. Ive just checked on a few other bodybuilding forums and this topic has been discussed extensively previously and the consensus is that the atkins diet is NOT suitable for bodybuilders.

The fact of the matter is, that calories are calories, and it doesnt matter if you have high fat & low carbs or high carbs & low fat, as long as the total number of calories are still the same you aint going to loose any fat.

You may not know this, but in order to loose fat you need to burn off more calories than you consume. The average bloke needs about 2500 calories to maintain their bodyweight. So, if you wanted to burn some fat off you either need to do loads of extra cardio (fast walking/cycling burns about 350calories/hr, jogging burns 600cals per hour), or you need to consume less calories during the day, or both!

One of the problems of course with choosing high fat & low carbs is that high

fat diets are higher in saturated fats and cholesterol than current dietary guidelines and their long-term use would increase serum cholesterol levels and risk for CHD.

The atkins diet seems amazingly sucessfull in America, where 50% of people are obese and 1/10th of people have diabetic problems as a result of obeseity. People who like their burgers/sausages or steaks too much obviously like the idea that they can eat loads of fatty food and still be on a "diet". The reality is, that if you stuff yourself full of protien & fat, then you get full up quicker, and cant eat as much. So, even without trying these people are not eating as much, therefore consuming less calories, and obviously will loose some weight.

Not only that, low carb diets do cause greater weight loss initially because of greater water loss. Glycogen contains about 3 grams of water per gram of glycogen, while fat stores contain only 0.5 grams of water per gram of fat. High fat, low-carb diets deplete glycogen stores rapidly and cause rapid water loss. Furthermore, initial weight loss on low carbohydrate diets may be enhanced by an exaggerated diuresis related to decreased postprandial serum insulin levels. Insulin promotes water retention through its antinatuiresis effects. This is one reason why people who try the atkins diet tend to pile on the pounds very quickly again once they stop it. Its just that the body starts to retain water again. For bodybuilders process can be psychologically worrying, as obviously muscles will start to get smaller as the water & glycogen escape from them.

These are a few points from the top of my head on the subject, but here are a couple of links to good research articles on diets. Not just the atkins one, but diets in general, which covers all the plus & minus points to them. I suggest everyone reads them, as it will give you all the full unbiased picture on them, and not just 1 persons opinion.

http://www.jacn.org/cgi/content/full/19/5/578

http://www.nature.com/cgi-taf/DynaPage.taf?file=/nature/journal/v428/n6980/full/428252a_fs.html

I could spend all day cutting & pasting bits of various articles to try and prove my point, but I dont need to. Anyone searching in google should be able to find all the information they need on the subject, and I suggest that they read both sides of the argument before choosing. As the articles say, if you are one of the 50% obese american people then it might work for you, if you are happy getting high cholesterol and risking CHD.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Funny, high fat diets dont raise cholesterol. It appears higher in the beginning but then lowers after a period of time.

I wasnt implying to eat all the fat you want to keep full. I was merly suggesting to limit the carbohydrates and replace the carbs with fat and you will see some fat loss. The body is smart. Limit calories and the body will lose weight. Up until a point then you wont see anymore weight loss as the body is adapting to what you are doing. To lose more weight you have to restrict the calories even further then the body loses more weight again. Up until a point the loss in weight is ok but with restricted calorie intake you can go catabolic and some of the weight loss will result in muscle loss, especially those on the high protein and low fat and low carb diets. So if you eat fat you are telling the body to burn fat for fuel. If you eat carbs then you are telling the body to use carbs for fuel. Simple enough but some people get fat from eating carbs because of the rise in blood sugar levels which spike insulin and therefore store that meal as fat. By eating the carbs you are telling the body to burn carbs but hey that last meal gust got stored as fat. So what happens? The brain calls for more food (carbs). Honistly I can find much more evedince about weight loss on restricting carbs and muscle sparring in clinical studies than the reverse. I just think that for so long we have been told one thing and we hold it and wont let go. I used to think the exact same thing as you. But what did that do for me? Got me some extra fat. Was and am I strong yes. After 2.5 weeks of low carbs am I still strong? Yes! Have I lost body fat? Yes! Just took my body fat percent on Sat. and will be monitering it closely.

I have 2 friends that have and are going into contests in about a week. Both of them are on low carb, low fat and high protein diets (1200 calorie). They lost alot of weight but the last week or so I noticed he lost some muscle. This guy was huge but now he is losing muscle. I cant prove it but if his staple for fuel is protein and restricting the calories in his diet he is losing muscle the only thing I can think of is his body us using his muscles for fuel or Catabolism is occuring. I think if he took the diet out farther (longer) added fat to the diet then he would go less into catabolism as the body preferes fat to protein for fuel. Fat is the most efficient fuel in the body.

Overfeeding on any food can make you fat. But fat and protein is harder to store as fat then carbs and I have never seen any case studies to disprove that.

The liver produces the majority of cholesterol in the body over 80 percent. Cholesterol blockers like lipitor promote muscle loss as well as blocking cholesterol. Again, if cholesterol is a precurser for testosterone or the absence of cholesterol in body affects testosterone then I think eliminating cholesterol from the diet is not smart. I was only showing that cholesterol is not as bad as people think and nor is fat.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Oh Turbo reviewing the first article you linked to has a serious flaw. Using a computer model to test out theories about human dieting is wrong. Everyone is diffrent and there is no way to test this theory unless it is tested on humans doing a double blind study and using all body types.

This came from the article and I see 2 things wrong the first already stated and the second they used the food pyramid as their base to test the other diets. The food pyramid has been tested to be wrong. Non clinical? You know why if it was clinical they they could not print this as the diets would in fact lower body fat.

"be non-clinically analyzed by means of a computer to predict their relative benefits/potential harm. A summary description, menu plan and recommended snacks were developed for each diet. The nutrient composition of each diet was determined using computer software, and a Food Pyramid Score was calculated to compare diets. The Mensink, Hegsted and other formulae were applied to estimate coronary heart disease risk factors."

How flawed can you get? First of all it is destined to fail due to human intervention=SOFTWARE.

Plus they are using current dietary guidlines (for their computer model). Well if the Majority of Americans are fat then the current dietary guidlines are flawed thus throwing off the model and making is in error from the very beginning. We are not machines but humans with varied diets, varied stress levels, varied sleep paterns, varied lifestyles, varied activities, so how can a computer calculate blood cholesterol. The body is much smarter than any computer.

This is another read. Very technical but worth the read. I will look over your articles turbo but this is very interesting to read. It is really long but you can gloss over it to see where I am comming from.

http://www.westonaprice.org/know_your_fats/skinny.html


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Turbo, I read your second article all the way through. Interesting enough, you just validated what I have been saying the whole time as I quote from your very article.

"Samaha and Foster each randomly assigned obese volunteers to either an Atkins-style low-carbohydrate or a traditional low-fat diet. In Samaha's six-month study, subjects on the low-carb diets lost the most weight - an average of about 6 kilograms, roughly three times the weight loss reported for the low-fat group. Foster's smaller, year-long trial initially showed similar results, but the difference between the two groups had disappeared by the end of the year.

These two studies provide the best evidence so far that low-carbohydrate diets may be of some use for patients who need to shed weight - at least in the early stages of their treatment. "We have moved it from quackery to science," says Foster. "Maybe there is something there, with the emphasis on the 'maybe'

The trials also failed to find signs that cutting carbohydrates rather than fats will increase the risk of cardiovascular disease. If anything, levels of artery-clogging triglycerides, and of 'good' versus 'bad' cholesterol, were slightly better among the volunteers on the low-carb diets."

What the article did say that not enough clinical studies have been done for long periods of time. I never said to not eat carbs for the rest of your life. I did say is high carb diets and high fat diets that you will lose more body fat on high fat diets than high carb diets. Now find me some literature somewhere i dont care if you copy and paste to dissprove what I just claimed. I can tell you that my diet right now is going better than I expected. I will post some picks up later. This morning I weighed 199 lbs and have not been under 200 lbs in over 3 years.

So send me more articles as I do like to read on this subject and I read everything I can get my hands on.


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## turbo (Nov 23, 2003)

From the same article:

"But the studies were small: Samaha's included 132 patients, Foster's just 63 - and only 79 and 37, respectively, saw the studies through to the end. Until longer-term data from larger trials are in, Foster is loath to recommend any low-carbohydrate diet"

"This is important, because many nutritionists remain concerned about the safety of long-term adherence to diets that are biased heavily towards fats and proteins. One recent review of the safety of low-carbohydrate diets4 reeled off an alarming list of potential problems: "Complications such as heart arrhythmias, cardiac contractile function impairment, sudden death, osteoporosis, kidney damage, increased cancer risk, impairment of physical activity and lipid abnormalities can all be linked to long-term restriction of carbohydrates in the diet."

Unbalanced diet?

Robert Eckel of the University of Colorado's Center for Human Nutrition in Denver is concerned that people following the Atkins diet, or similar plans, won't eat the wide range of fruits, vegetables and whole grains that is almost universally held to be beneficial. "The Atkins diet is anything but health-promoting," he argues"

"Studies on people in hospital wards where their food intake is strictly controlled reinforce Astrup's message. These show that weight loss is similar for diets containing the same number of calories, irrespective of the proportion of carbohydrate, fat and protein5, 6.

But some experts, including researchers who are otherwise critical of the Atkins diet, say that the low-carb approach at least has the merit of encouraging people to cut out large portions of calorie-rich foods such as doughnuts, cakes and pastries. That may result in dieters consuming fewer calories overall, which would explain the results of Samaha's and Foster's trials."

I didnt say that the atkins diet doesnt work, but as the article i linked to points out, there are plus and negative sides to it and more research is needed. That was just one article out of many I have read on the subject. All i am trying to point out to people is like as I mentioned before, people need to read all the facts on all the diets and pick one to suit them. In your case, the atkins diet obviously suits you, but it doesnt mean that it will suit everyone. I like to keep an open mind on the subject and learn about different diets, rather then trying to convience everyone that atkins definately is the best!

Well done on getting below 200lb, i thought you were much bigger than that from your photos. What bf% are you?


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## robdog (Dec 2, 2003)

thats a good point actually turbo. i dont think there is a right way and a wrong way to diet. yes i rekon most competative bodybuilders use low and no carb days but with dieting there is no given as such. if people can eat whatever they want and still lose weight then that is riht for them.


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

I think the best diet out there is Enter the Zone by Barry Sears. Hackskii will also agree with me on that. I thing he was just trying to proving a point with the Atkins diet. Like I have posted in the past it is the carbs you choose that make a certain group of people fat. Choosing the low glysimic spiking carbs.

http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/showthread.php?t=1412

Check it out I posted this over 2 months ago. Some say to stay below the 50 mark, but I say the lower the number the better looking the body. You dont need the man made breads, pastas, flour, sugar. Stick with the foods God put on this earth and you will be healthier and leaner. Eat the green, yellow, orange fruits and vegies. Kinda simple really. I dont think staying on the Atkins the rest of your life is good, but if you are obess that has health risks by itself.


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## turbo (Nov 23, 2003)

winger said:


> I think the best diet out there is Enter the Zone by Barry Sears. Hackskii will also agree with me on that. I thing he was just trying to proving a point with the Atkins diet.


You & Hackskii agree on everything, so i wouldnt expect him to disagree with you there. And where ever he posts you post also! 

What was the point about the atkins diet? That it works for some people? Well, we all know that, and we all agreed with that!


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

This is food, diet and nutrition forum. This post is in the proper spot. Now if someone that had lets say an addiction to carbs and was fat and wanted to lose some bodyfat then this would be the spot to look.

I have read the book Enter The Zone by Barry Sears and it has some really informitave information in it. It is a fun read. I have read books about macrobiotics, high fat, low fat, fit for life and others. I was not trying to convince anyone but sharing information on some of the thinks that I have read and done personally. That does not qualify me as an expert but it does qualify me to say what I know to be true about myself and many others.

Have you read the book Enter the Zone Turbo?

Until you read it then it wont qualify you to critique something you dont know about. Look at case studies not computer models. In the second article they gave NO case studies confirming what they claimed. They did say potential not in fact. From what I read it looked biased based on their opinion and not clinical studies nor facts.

I know first hand that the zone diet works, I also know for a fact that the Atkins diet works. I can prove this with case studys with dates, Doctors and Universities that in fact varify what I have been saying.

Dont take what I say out of context. This is a diet forum and someone might read what you say and take that as fact and miss the aproach than might in fact help them. I never said that Atkins diet was lifelong. If you read his book he eats tons of vegetables.

Sugar is a carb and so is white bread. Would you recommend eating large quantities of this for a good diet? Empty calories there and hey they are a carb so eat them up big time cuz that is healthy. Wrong. Eating has applications for what you want to do. I am dieting right now. In that picture you saw I was about 210-215 lbs. I am only 5'6"-5'7" my bodyfat is somewhere around 22 percent. I am 44 years old and have been lifting for 28 years. I still drink beer and burn some weed now and again but this is not something I am going to go out and say hey guys you need to drink beer and smoke pot. But someone will take that out of context too and turn around and say it.

I take handfulls of vitamins, minerals, probiotics, digestive enzymes and other stuff. Herbs were a passion of mine for years and so has diffrent eating lifestyles. I enjoy reading about that stuff and never cut myself short on finding other things.

I am going on another cycle maybe in 1-4 weeks. I wanted to get rid of some fat and then put on some muscle keeping the fat down. When you hit your 40's you cant eat what you ate when you are in your 20's

I used to eat a pint of Hagen Daus icecream every night after a huge dinner and was not fat. Now if I did that I would be massive. So some judgement is in order here.


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

turbo said:


> You & Hackskii agree on everything, so i wouldnt expect him to disagree with you there. And where ever he posts you post also!
> 
> What was the point about the atkins diet? That it works for some people? Well, we all know that, and we all agreed with that!


No, the point was elevating blood sugar and then the insulin comes into play and then you store fat. You can eat carbs and not spike insulin if you eat the low glysimic non spiking carbs. This is only for the people that gets affected by eating carbs. Thats about 25% that really get affected. Sorry to post after my brother.  I still love ya turbo.


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## turbo (Nov 23, 2003)

Hacksii - What are you on about? Firstly:

1) "Have you read the book Enter the Zone Turbo?

Until you read it then it wont qualify you to critique something you dont know about. Look at case studies not computer models. In the second article they gave NO case studies confirming what they claimed. They did say potential not in fact. From what I read it looked biased based on their opinion and not clinical studies nor facts. "

Woah. Who said anything about that particular book. I was not commenting on that book. You were commenting on the atkins diet and high fat diets. I was pointing out that other diets work perfectly as good. Who said i only look at computer models? As i mentioned, ive looked at dozens and dozens of articles and only posted 2 links at random. One was a computer model, the other was an unbiased bit of research, not anti-atkins, but detailing all the facts in general, incl. some facts for the atkins style diets and some against. What links have you given? Just one, which wasnt a case study or showing any evidence, just some doctors own opinion.

2) "I know first hand that the zone diet works, I also know for a fact that the Atkins diet works. I can prove this with case studys with dates, Doctors and Universities that in fact varify what I have been saying."

Good for you. As ive mentioned many times now, I never said that the atkins diet didnt work, in fact several times ive said that it does work for some people. So, whats your point here?

3) "Dont take what I say out of context. This is a diet forum and someone might read what you say and take that as fact and miss the aproach than might in fact help them."

I havent taken anything out of context, you seem to be getting the wrong end of the stick here. What facts have i said which people might read? Well, quoting from my previous post:-

"All i am trying to point out to people is like as I mentioned before, people need to read all the facts on all the diets and pick one to suit them. In your case, the atkins diet obviously suits you, but it doesnt mean that it will suit everyone. I like to keep an open mind on the subject and learn about different diets, rather then trying to convience everyone that atkins definately is the best!"

And whats wrong with that?!!! Now, if I was saying all high fat diets are rubbish and that atkins didnt work, then id understand why you are trying to argue your point!

4) " I am 44 years old and have been lifting for 28 years."

Yes, we know this, you mention that in nearly all your posts. We are not disputing that.

5) "I take handfulls of vitamins, minerals, probiotics, digestive enzymes and other stuff. Herbs were a passion of mine for years and so has diffrent eating lifestyles. I enjoy reading about that stuff and never cut myself short on finding other things."

Cool. Ive been training for 15 years and love keeping an open mind and learning new stuff. I grow my own vegetables, herbs and fruit and spent a lot of time researching nutricianal information as well as anything associated with bodybuilding.

6) "When you hit your 40's you cant eat what you ate when you are in your 20's - I used to eat a pint of Hagen Daus icecream every night after a huge dinner and was not fat. Now if I did that I would be massive. So some judgement is in order here."

Yep... when i was in my early 20`s id eat all day long. Id get home and eat 2 massive evening meals, huge desserts and still not put on weight. Its common knowledge that the older you get, the slower your metabolism gets and so you put on weight unless you a) eat less or B) exercise it all off.

Exactly what do you think im disputing and why are you posting pages and pages of stuff trying to prove points which i havent disagreed with!

No wonder you looked big in that picture if you are 5 1/2 foot. Well done though on dropping nearly 15lb or so. Clearly your diet is working well.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

turbo said:


> The fact of the matter is, that calories are calories, and it doesnt matter if you have high fat & low carbs or high carbs & low fat, as long as the total number of calories are still the same you aint going to loose any fat.


This is not true. Fat does not store as fat (unless in very high amounts taken in) and for some people carbs do store as fat. The fats that are stored from carbs are worse than the fats that are taken in.

Dietary Fat Does Not Make You Fat!

The solution to this apparent riddle might surprise you, but the explanation is simple. Eating fat in the proper amounts does not make you fat. I will take this one step farther. Eating fat does not make you fat. This sounds like nutritional heresy, but there's scientific proof. In the 1950's, Kekwick and Pawan at the University of London in England published a landmark study. They put patients on a diet that was low in calories (1000) but high in fat. In fact, fat supplied 90 percent of the total calories. What happened? Those patients lost significant amounts of weight. When the same patients were put on a high-carbohydrate diet (90% of the calories form carbs) with the same number of calories, there was virtually no weight loss.

Eating carbohydrates stimulates insulin secretion. Since your body has a limited capacity to store carbohydrates, doesn't know when its next meal might be, and has an unlimited ability to store food as fat, insulin does just that. Insulin turns the excess carbohydrates into fat! Dietary fat, on the other hand, does not stimulate insulin secretion. By eating the proper ratio of low-density carbohydrates, dietary fat, and protein, you can control your insulin production.



turbo said:


> One of the problems of course with choosing high fat & low carbs is that high
> 
> fat diets are higher in saturated fats and cholesterol than current dietary guidelines and their long-term use would increase serum cholesterol levels and risk for CHD.


True, but only in the beginning. Later on it will be lower than when you started. HDL's will be up and LDL's will be down and triglycerides will be lower as well. Triglycerides can be lowered by taking fish oils only. Hmmmm hey, that is a fat! So much for the serum cholesterol level thing. Remember there are more than one factor that affects cholesterols, HDL, LDL, and triglycerides. All numbers are taken into consideration in evaluating candidates for heart disease. Which by the way the levels on cholesterols in my opinion are too low when rating heart attack patients.

Excess sugar depresses immunity. Studies have shown that downing 75 to 100 grams of a sugar solution (about 20 teaspoons of sugar, or the amount that is contained in two average 12-ounce sodas) can suppress the body's immune responses. Simple sugars, including glucose, table sugar, fructose, and honey caused a fifty- percent drop in the ability of white blood cells to engulf bacteria. In contrast, ingesting a complex carbohydrate solution (starch) did not lower the ability of these white blood cells to engulf bacteria. The immune suppression was most noticeable two hours post-ingestion, but the effect was still evident five hours after ingestion. This research has practical implications, especially for teens and college students who tend to overdose on sodas containing caffeine and sugar while studying for exams or during periods of stress. Stress also suppresses immunity, so these sugar-users are setting themselves up to get sick at a time when they need to be well.

An overdose of sugar. Eating or drinking 100 grams (8 tbsp.) of sugar, the equivalent of two- and-a-half 12-ounce cans of soda, can reduce the ability of white blood cells to kill germs by 40 percent. The immune-suppressing effect of sugar starts less than thirty minutes after ingestion and may last for five hours. In contrast, the ingestion of complex carbohydrates, or starches, has no effect on the immune system.

Hey carbs are good right? People who eat too much sugar tend to have higher blood tryglycerides, and this increases the risk of cardiovascular disease.

Now the higher glycemic index carbs or big amounts can be said as the same as above. THEY WILL RAISE TRYGLICERIDES AND THEREFORE PROMOTE CARDIOVASCULOAR DESEASE. Almost the opposite of what you are preaching.

I don't have the case studies handy but I can back up carb for fat calories will in fact make you fatter then fat. All calories are not created equal. In the world of high fat or high carbs you WILL get fatter eating the same calories of carbs than fat. That is my point. The zone diet is based on 40-30-30 principle. When my brother said that I thought the zone was the best diet, he was right. But it is not a diet but a way of eating to get the most out of your food. The zone is basically the maintenance diet for the Atkins. Zone diet is my preference and you might want to pick up that book.

I really applaud you for your tenacity on this debate. I can see that you really want to know and learn. We might be the exact same. I never took you as discredit when reading your posts. I don't have any probs with you and I hope you don't with me. I love to read and learn and it only makes me think, read, and learn more.


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## turbo (Nov 23, 2003)

This is not true. Fat does not store as fat (unless in very high amounts taken in) and for some people carbs do store as fat. The fats that are stored from carbs are worse than the fats that are taken in.

Dietary Fat Does Not Make You Fat!

I never said eating fat makes you fat. As you have quoted i simply said, in order to loose fat you need to drop the total number of calories down.

They put patients on a diet that was low in calories (1000) but high in fat. In fact, fat supplied 90 percent of the total calories. What happened? Those patients lost significant amounts of weight. When the same patients were put on a high-carbohydrate diet (90% of the calories form carbs) with the same number of calories, there was virtually no weight loss.

Now that really does supprise me, that even that they put patients on a low calorie diet that they didnt actually loose any weight. The average man needs 2500 calories a day to maintain the average body weight, if this was dropped to 1000 calories, you would have expected the body to have tried to gain that missing 1500 calories from its own energy reserves (fat). This contradicts nearly every non high fat diet out there! Of course, it may be that the carbs they gave the patients were the wrong carbs on the glycemic chart. But, looking again. Were those patients bodybuilders? If not, then we can take this research with a pinch of salt. How many bodybuilders, even when dieting would get 90% of their calories from carbs? None. Most would keep protien high, and drop both carbs & fats down to get a lower total calorie intake.

Triglycerides can be lowered by taking fish oils only. Hmmmm hey, that is a fat! So much for the serum cholesterol level thing.

But fish oils are not usually saturated fat, which I was refering to, they are infact good fats! - which is why a lot of people take cod liver oil tablets or EFAs daily. Omega 3.. yum yum.

Hey carbs are good right? People who eat too much sugar tend to have higher blood tryglycerides, and this increases the risk of cardiovascular disease.

Now the higher glycemic index carbs or big amounts can be said as the same as above. THEY WILL RAISE TRYGLICERIDES AND THEREFORE PROMOTE CARDIOVASCULOAR DESEASE. Almost the opposite of what you are preaching.

Yes, and how many bodybuilders do you know on a high carb diet who would eat loads of suger? None. Most bodybuilders eat selective carbs, probably low on the glycemic index.

In the world of high fat or high carbs you WILL get fatter eating the same calories of carbs than fat. That is my point.

Aha, we finally get to the point. Its been many long posts in the coming, but we are finally there. Unfortunately i dont agree with that point, as i havent read any studies showing that by reducing the total number of calories you dont actually loose weight and that you only loose the weight if you keep fats high and just drop the carbs . (Like that London study you mentioned showed). That completely contradicts any diets ive sucessfully tried in the past and any of my friends have sucessfully tried. Not to mention completely dismissing millions of bodybuilders theories on dieting. In fact, it makes you wonder how people like Arnie, Lou or any of the other top bodybuilders ever lost any excess fat through just dropping the calories and doing cardio. - Id be interested in doing more reading on these studies as im sure every other bodybuilder would be.

I really applaud you for your tenacity on this debate. I can see that you really want to know and learn. We might be the exact same. I never took you as discredit when reading your posts. I don't have any probs with you and I hope you don't with me. I love to read and learn and it only makes me think, read, and learn more.

Thats very re-assuring. Unfortunately I dont see that you really want to know and learn from these posts. You seem to be refusing to believe that any other diet, appart from the one which is working for you would actually work for anyone else. As robdog and I pointed out - different diets work for different people, and if something is working for you, then its good. Some people just wouldnt be able to stomach a high fat diet, others love it. As I mentioned before, its upto the person to research their diets and try a few themselves.


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

turbo said:


> I never said eating fat makes you fat. As you have quoted i simply said, in order to loose fat you need to drop the total number of calories down.


I have to disagree with that. That works in the beginning but what happens when your body gets used to the less calories? You stop loosing. What is the number one best way to speed up matabolism? Eating. How about eating carbs that have a lot of bulk to them. I could set up a diet of 2500 calories and you couldn't finish eating all the food.

Bodybuilders limit there carbs more than any other food to get ready for a contest. Once again it is the carbs you choose that give you the body you have.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

You said in one of your posts that high fat diets are dangerous.

Research does not confirm this.

High carbohydrate diets do raise triglycerides and can be dangerous.

Also high carbs raise insulin and here is an article on what the dangers of insulin are. Remember carbs raise insulin fat suppresses it.

Your body breaks down carbohydrates into sugar (glucose) which then enters your blood stream. The more carbohydrates consumed, the higher your blood sugar goes, the more insulin your body produces to keep those blood sugar levels in a normal range. Insulin's job is to push the sugar out of your bloodstream and into the cells.

On the surface of the cells in your body are insulin receptors, which act like little doors that open and close to regulate the inflow of blood sugar.

After many years of consuming a high-carbohydrate diet, your cells have been bombarded with so much insulin that these doors begin to malfunction and shut down.

With less doors open, your body needs to produce even more insulin to push the glucose into the cells. More insulin causes even more doors to close and as this vicious cycle continues, a condition called "insulin resistance" sets in.

The insulin resistance can get so bad that your body can no longer produce enough insulin to push the blood sugar into the cells. The blood sugar then rises out of control with the result of type 2 diabetes. Diabetes is simply an extreme case of insulin resistance.

The key point for you to understand is that your energy, wellness and longevity are primarily dependent on improving the sensitivity of your cells to insulin - how well your cells open and close the doors and clear sugar from the blood.

What's the Bottom line?

Since type 2 diabetes is really a severe case of insulin resistance, the solution to your condition and to help prevent diabetes is to find a way to increase the sensitivity of your cells to insulin and help your body get the sugar out of the blood and into the cells so it can be metabolized and turned into energy. (This inability to metabolize sugar is one of the reasons why most people who are insulin resistant often feel tired and fatigued.)

I just read robdogs post and he was not agreeing with either one of us but just said good point.

How about a case study that allowed the adolescences to consume more total calories on a high fat diet then a low fat diet and the high fat (calorie) the kids lost more weight?

Published in the Journal of Adolescent Health in 2000, it reported on a group of obese adolescents put on a controlled carbohydrate diet with no restriction on calories for three months and meticulously monitored throughout that period. By design the regimen was based on the Atkins approach. The group was compared with a control group put on a low fat diet.

The results? Well, naturally the adolescents lost significantly more weight on the controlled carbohydrate diet than on the low fat diet. The written records indicated that at the end of the trial the adolescents in the controlled carbohydrate group had averaged 1830 calories daily, while the adolescents in the low fat group had consumed 1100 calories. The controlled carbohydrate group averaged 21.7 pounds lost, compared to 9.1 pounds for the low-fat group, and a significant improvement in body mass index (BMI), compared with the low-fat dieters.

I did say that you can lose more weight on a controlled carb diet and you said I was wrong. Well, these kids had a higher calorie died and lost more weight. Why do you suppose that happened?

You tout the fat is bad for your heart approach so lets just look at another study:

One study done in Glasgow described overweight women who after three months had lost 14.5 pounds on a thirty-five-percent carbohydrate diet of 1200 calories and 12.3 pounds on a fifty-eight percent carbohydrate diet of 1200 calories. That's fairly slow weight loss and pretty strict caloric deprivation. The advantage went to the lower-carbohydrate diet as always, but the lesson is that stricter carbohydrate control makes for an even more successful weight loss plan.

Two facts should be noted: first, in all cases, the lower carbohydrate group did lose more weight than the higher-carbohydrate group. Second, in two of the studies cardiovascular risk factors improved significantly but only in the subjects who were on a lower carbohydrate intake. The folks who got put on a high-carbohydrate diet showed no significant improvements in these health indicators.

Again opposite of what you preach. What is that Improved cardiovascular risk factors? Oh my so much for fat is bad for you approach and they did not say that all the fat was from fish oils in the study either.

Still not convinced? Try this one. Charlotte Young, professor of clinical nutrition at Cornell University, compared the results of overweight young men placed on three diets, all providing 1800 calories, but with varying degrees of carbohydrate restriction. The regimens contained 30, 60, and 104 grams of carbohydrate, and subjects followed them for nine weeks. Young and her colleagues calculated body fat through a widely accepted technique involving immersion underwater.

Those on the 104 grams of carbs lost slightly better than 2 pounds of fat per week out of 2.73 pounds of total weight loss-not bad for 1800 calories.

Those on 60 grams of carbs lost nearly 2.5 pounds of fat per week out of 3 pounds of actual weight loss-better.

But those on 30 grams of carbs, the only situation that produced lipolysis and the secondary process of ketosis lost 3.73 pounds of fat per week approximately one hundred percent of their total weight loss.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Where is your medical proof turbo?

Where are your case studies to confirm what you are saying?

You talk about high fat diets being bad for you and you have no problems injecting yourself with steroids. Fact it there arnt enough studies to prove that high fat diets do infact give you cardiovascular problems. And the studies that have been done confirm the opposite.

When i go on my next cycle I will be eating more carbs, lots more. But I am reducing them now to lose some body fat and not be hungry all day.

I have lots of case studies in books and articles and would type them up but I know you wont read them as you only adhere to what your heart is telling you. So that would be just a waste of my time.

This reminds me of a guy telling another guy that his wife is cheating on him. The guy just wont believe that his wife that he loves could ever cheat on him. How does the guy know that the other guys wife is cheating? He is the one doing it.

Bring some facts to the table and not how you feel. There is no other way of convincing me of anything outside of some facts. Bring them to the table.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Read this:

http://www.westonaprice.org/know_your_fats/skinny.html


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## turbo (Nov 23, 2003)

Yeah robdog wasnt agreeing with me when he said

"thats a good point actually turbo. i dont think there is a right way and a wrong way to diet. yes i rekon most competative bodybuilders use low and no carb days but with dieting there is no given as such. if people can eat whatever they want and still lose weight then that is riht for them."

which is exactly what ive been saying all along.

try reading...

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/articles/nutrition/diets_compare.php and http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/articles/nutrition/diets_compare2.php

Basically thats another unbias article saying the same as ive said, that different diets work for different people and that no one diet is better. For you the atkins diet works, for others it doesnt. None of your examples you have given me actually use bodybuilders in their studies so really they are all irrelevant.

Virtually all bodybuilders I know and who ive spoken to on this subject use the standard low fat, low carb high protein approach which I use myself and cut the calories. For wingers benefit as he doesnt seem to understand this - you dont just drop all the calories at once, you drop maybe 200 at a time and increase cardio gradually. You shouldnt need to do much more than that. Once the weight stops coming off, drop the calories slightly more. Of course if you drop them all at once you`ll end up reaching a plateau and be stuck.

The only competative bber at a high level who says they eat a high fat diet is Dave Palumbo but he is well known for his heavy gear use inc gh and t3 in large amounts to get shredded and he hasnt really got a poster boy physique for all his condition - and he hasnt even turned pro for all his efforts.

Just looking at the last 2 of your studies you posted, nothing is mentioned about the fat levels in those diets. Of course cutting carbs & dropping calories will loose weight, and the more carbs you drop, the more weight you loose. It mentioned nothing about the fat levels they were consuming. For all you know, they could be dropping the fat from their diets too.

So, at the end of the day, if a high fat diet is so fantastic, why dont all the best bodybuilders use it?

I think we should call it a day on this, as its taken the post completely out of context. You will continue to disagree that different diets work for different people, and you`ll continue to post studies of everything from teenage kids, to obese mothers to pregnant women who have shown slightly greater weight loss by using high fat diets. How much of that weight loss was muscle? Bodybuilders have different diet requirements to that.

In your opinions (and wingers too obviously) high fat diets are the way to go, and thats perfectly fine. As I continue to say, if it works for you then its good, but as the vast majority of bodybuilders agree, i still think the dropping of calories by cutting carbs & fat is the best way to go.


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## turbo (Nov 23, 2003)

Just out of interest, ive just read Arnies "New Eductation of Modern Bodybuilding" which is an 800page bible covering everything you would ever need to know about bodybuilding. A very good read. What diet does he recommend? Well, he says stay clear of high fat diets and recommends a diet the same as i suggested. Dropping calories gradually, dropping fats as low as you can, maybe to 20%, and cuting the carbs down also, whilst keeping protien up.

But then again, Arnie is getting on a bit now, and whilst he & all the other big name bodybuilders at the time followed this idea, maybe they were wrong and it was pure luck that it actually worked for them.

How about Dorian Yates? Well, in his book "portrait of dorian yates" he advises a 50 protien, 30 carbs and 20 fats split. Again, in line with what I said. So, either these 2 and all top bodybuilders are wrong and that they should infact all be using high fat diets, or maybe they are right, and like myself say you should drop calories gradually, by dropping both fat & carbs.


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

Those guys need so many grams of protein. The numbers dont jive with a high protein high fat low carb diet. I never said high fat. I said reduced carb. Thats ok. I said my favorite was enter the zone. 40-30-30. That is 40% carbs. 30% protein. 30% fat. Now if you say that is a high fat diet then you dont have clue.


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## robdog (Dec 2, 2003)

i have heard that someone like coleman lives basically on chicken and rice which would be high carbs and protein with low fat. i would imagine all he does is reduce the rice)carbs when cutting so in the most extreme low carb weeks he is eatin high protein only, virtualy no carbs or fat. so there i have settled the disagreement lol. high protein low fat and reduce the carbs. its called the robdog diet.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

I will post pics soon. The reduced carbs work great for me. I am 197.5 today lbs.

Arnold last I heard had heart bypass surgery. Oh, Guess the carbs had no effect on that huh?

Again, Arnold was at his peak. He was young he didnt need to lose bodyfat. Why would he need to reduce carbs when he was juicing hard. Why was Dorian. Gear delux there.

Hey, you know so much about those two's diets then post their contest diets. Bet they did not eat sugar, bread and pasta. Dont forget gear helps proteing synthisis and will maintain a positive nitrogen ballance. Actually that is cheating but hey, I do it to and so do you.

Those eliete athletes are in their prime and dont think that what applys to them applys to us. They had hundreds of pounds of lean muscle mass and therefore dieting will come easier than you or me.

Have you ever tried atkins or zone diets?

I have tried all types of diets. Those work best for me.

Drop the carbs or drop the junk carbs and you will lose some fat.

I feel great and have more energy right now. Well I guess that is just BS huh?

No there are diffrent enzymes to break down diffrent foods that are taken into the body.

There have been lots of body builders thet drop dead prematurely. Dont tell me that they are in great health. Yah, I just want to jump into a high protein and low fat and low carbs means catabolism for sure. Especially when I have pounds of muslce to lose along with fat.

Case studys show that catabolism occurs on low carb and low fat diets together. Less lean muscle mass is lost with more fat than carbs in the diet while dieting.

Post their contest diets and lets have a look see.


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

robdog said:


> i have heard that someone like coleman lives basically on chicken and rice which would be high carbs and protein with low fat. i would imagine all he does is reduce the rice)carbs when cutting so in the most extreme low carb weeks he is eatin high protein only, virtualy no carbs or fat. so there i have settled the disagreement lol. high protein low fat and reduce the carbs. its called the robdog diet.


 I like your style.


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## turbo (Nov 23, 2003)

robdog said:


> i have heard that someone like coleman lives basically on chicken and rice which would be high carbs and protein with low fat. i would imagine all he does is reduce the rice)carbs when cutting so in the most extreme low carb weeks he is eatin high protein only, virtualy no carbs or fat. so there i have settled the disagreement lol. high protein low fat and reduce the carbs. its called the robdog diet.


Which is exactly what im saying all the top bodybuilders do, and is what everyone i know does. 



hackskii said:


> Hey, you know so much about those two's diets then post their contest diets. Bet they did not eat sugar, bread and pasta. .


No, i just said that i quoted from their particular books as to what they recommend.

Of course i would be very supprised if their competition diets included sugar, bread and pasta as they are high on the gi scale and we all know that bodybuilders should eat low gi carbs. Most recommend carbs like vegetables, brown rice, potatoes etc... in order to get the carbs they need for their energy.



hackskii said:


> Again, Arnold was at his peak. He was young he didnt need to lose bodyfat. Why would he need to reduce carbs when he was juicing hard. Why was Dorian. Gear delux there..


Err... most bodybuilders need to drop their fat levels for competitions. They usually start this cutting process about 12weeks from the competition and stop the week before. In that final week they start consuming high levels of carbs which replenish the muscles with glycgen and make them look bigger again. Juice doesnt really make any difference to this. Most bodybuilders would be bulking whilst on juice, or taking a smaller dose of primo or test (or whatever) to help retain muscle whilst dieting. Of course, a lot of modern bodybuilders would probably take t3, dnp or whatever to try and shed the fat - like Dave Palumbo for example who co-incidentally happens to be one of the only bodybuilders to use the "high fat diet". Arnies book isnt a biography of what he did when he was younger in bodybuilding. Its an updated book, which takes the knowledge from his bodybuilding experiences, all his collegues through the years right up to ronnie/dorian etc... In fact in the book he tells how things have changed over the years which helps you understand how different bodybuilding today is compared to the 60`s & 70`s when arnie was young.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

First of all thanks Turbo, robdog and winger for posting.

I wanted to wait till the end to type the problems that I have with fats in the diet compared to carbohydrates I have in the body.

1. Animal fats I feel might not be good because toxins and chemicals are stored in the fats of animals. So by eating the fat from animals you are ingesting the same toxins as the animal that had them.

2. With lowering the consumption of carbs in the diet and replacing them with fats you hav a nutritional void in the vitamins and minerals in the body.

3. This is something that most people have never heard of and this is something called Acid ashing and alkaline ashing. Proteins tend to lower PH (more acidic) and depending on the carbs can raise PH (alkaline). The body is healthier in the alkaline state and many sick people are on the acidic side. A simple test can pe PH or litmus paper. Used first **** in the morning will tell you where you stand ph wise. You can also test you ph using saliva. Between the two can tell you pretty much where you stand.

Fats are neutral on the acid or alkaline.

In carbohydrates especially vegetables where minerals are present the body can change its ph through food selections. This can be beneficial for people who get sick a lot.

If you want to find more about acid ashing and alkaline ashing then you can do a search on the internet. This is kind of out of the box as well as traditional nutrition. I wont tell you what it is but it is informative reading.

Lastly, saturated fats and alcohol can cause deficiencies in GLA. I might need to add that to my diet

Oh, potato is higher on the glycemic index not lower.


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

So turbo when is your next contest?


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## turbo (Nov 23, 2003)

winger said:


> So turbo when is your next contest?


Who said I was competiting. When is your next contest? Just because someone is trying to cut some fat or even lifts weights and is on a bulking diet doesnt mean to say they plan to compete. The vast majority of people on message boards/forums are only doing it as their hobbie/interest to meet their own personal targets/goals.

The principles behind it all though work the same whether or not you are at a competative level or just doing it as a hobbie, and most of the stuff we do has been past on from competative bodybuilders. The lifting routines we do, the diets, the supplements we take etc..

Some people dont believe in cutting up until they reach 250lb or something. Others just love bulking and never ever cut up. Others only cut up for certain social events in their life when they want to impress their friends. I personally like to shed any unwanted fat once a year, as I feel that its false bodyweight and any excess fat just is in the way. It also hides muscles, so its handy to shed it off to see exactly how your muscles are progressing and so you can see where you need any extra work.

Between March->May last year I shed 24lb, then I spent November->March bulking, and now im cutting again until about June time. I usually try not to put on much fat during my bulking. Last year was an exception. This year ive only put on about 7lb or so of fat, and still have some "left over" fat from before which i want to shift. So far im 2 weeks into my cutting and ive lost 5lb already. Im aiming for a modest 2lb per week which means by June ive have easily shed about 14lb or so and I keep a carefull eye on my body and make sure that its fat & not muscle which is going!

Anyway, this is off topic.


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## Guest (May 1, 2004)

Bloody hell, you lot don't half fcuking argue do you, jeez, have you lot run out of tamoxifen or something? it's not that expensive, buy another box, or six....


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## turbo (Nov 23, 2003)

Insanity said:


> Bloody hell, you lot don't half fcuking argue do you, jeez, have you lot run out of tamoxifen or something? it's not that expensive, buy another box, or six....


Well hackskii is post cycle atm i think. Might have something to do with it!


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

turbo said:


> Just out of interest, ive just read Arnies "New Eductation of Modern Bodybuilding" which is an 800page bible covering everything you would ever need to know about bodybuilding. A very good read. What diet does he recommend? Well, he says stay clear of high fat diets and recommends a diet the same as i suggested. Dropping calories gradually, dropping fats as low as you can, maybe to 20%, and cuting the carbs down also, whilst keeping protien up.
> 
> But then again, Arnie is getting on a bit now, and whilst he & all the other big name bodybuilders at the time followed this idea, maybe they were wrong and it was pure luck that it actually worked for them.
> 
> How about Dorian Yates? Well, in his book "portrait of dorian yates" he advises a 50 protien, 30 carbs and 20 fats split. Again, in line with what I said. So, either these 2 and all top bodybuilders are wrong and that they should infact all be using high fat diets, or maybe they are right, and like myself say you should drop calories gradually, by dropping both fat & carbs.


The only reason why I asked when is your next contest is because you implied that the atkins diet and the zone diet aren't geared toward the bodybuilder. Unless you are getting ready for a contest then in my ever so humble opinion, why go on a diet that is getting ready for a contest. Unless you feel like shedding some quick fat. I agree totally with diets being personal. The only difference between a top body builder and an amature bodybuilder is the top bodybuilder has better living through chemistry. He wont put on fat like the natural guy would. He needs a totally different diet altogether. Oh that would be the Zone diet. Once again. It is the choices of the carbs and not the number of carbs. Strawberries, cucumber, celery count as zero carbs.  I believe in eating healthy. Stick with the fruits and veggies that have the red, green and yellow colors. 

This is not a flame by any means. I just think the three of us are on different pages and there is no one perfect diet. Well there is one. It is the one that you can stick with and make results.  I have learned so much and I just love a good debate. Turbo you are one smart guy and a big credit to the board. Start posting more.


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

Insanity said:


> Bloody hell, you lot don't half fcuking argue do you, jeez, have you lot run out of tamoxifen or something? it's not that expensive, buy another box, or six....


I'll give you six......................six inches.  Thats from the floor.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Sure, blame it all on me. I start a post and Turbo just has to finish it

I dont care, I like to type and it is funny that guys are PM messaging me for more information about the Atkins diet. Hmmm funny lots of reads and not alot of posts. Seems that I am getting somewhere

Well, I know now that what I typed is not all in vain.

Me and Turbo are in fact alike. More than he thinks or wants to admit.

He is a smart kid and can see he is no idiot. I like that turbo and that was a complament.

Yes post cycle and I think my levels are low as my sex drive is not what it should be. 9 weeks today and will have to wait till my levels come back somewhat till I start my next BIG TEST cycle.

You are alright Turbo, I think we stepped on the wrong foot starting with the HCG thing and it flowed over to this but you are ok. I like the fact you have a mind.

Now lets put a body with that post a pic or send me a pic and I can put it on my web page.

Thanks Sanity for busting up the seriousness here


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

This is and always will be my favorite forum. Not cuz I am a mod but because I really like all the guys. Oh and Sanity is here too, that is another reason

On another note, I am in Vegas and was talking to some UK chaps yesterday at the bar they were really funny and had me laughing. I was telling them about how you guys speak and I asked them what Bullocks was or is it bollocks, They told me they were nuts. Hey, each time I see a new word, I want to know what it means but I dont want to sound too stupid asking what this means or that means.


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## Guest (May 1, 2004)

Yeah, send scott a pic, we want to see the turbo boy, no blurred fly past shots please!


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

Insanity said:


> Yeah, send scott a pic, we want to see the turbo boy, no blurred fly past shots please!


Up to date would be nice.  Dont feel pressured.  We have almost every pic of every member oh sorry (bodybuilder) on the forum.  We are family here. If you dont post a pic I would totally understand...................not!


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

This is a pic of me on a golf cart at the river. I flexed for the camera. I dont look like this unless you show the camera what it wants to see.


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

Thanks for the shirt Lorian.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Hey, what hot photographer took that pick?

Oh, **Cough** AHUMMMM**me***COUGH! Hey, not bad for an old guy!!!!!

How many cycles have you done?

What kind of routine do you prefer?

What kind of diet do you prefer? ............BEER!

Well, you have to have a good staple of food for a base! 

Just kiddin bro!!!! I forgot about that one. Think I should juice it up a bit?


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

hackskii said:


> Hey, what hot photographer took that pick?
> 
> Oh, **Cough** AHUMMMM**me***COUGH! Hey, not bad for an old guy!!!!!
> 
> ...


Hey stop taking all the glory. What the heck you doing. Take some tamoxifen, mister cant get it up..........................


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

It's ok. Nothing that a fresh cycle can't fix. 

I got this from a reliable source. Take 1 gram of tes every other day and 6 a bombs ed, stacked with some eq, t3, insulin and dnp,hgh at least 10 iu's a day and you will put on some size and strength. Just make sure your pct is in order.  

But dont take any motrin for pain cause it is bad on the liver.


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## turbo (Nov 23, 2003)

winger said:


> The only reason why I asked when is your next contest is because you implied that the atkins diet and the zone diet aren't geared toward the bodybuilder. Unless you are getting ready for a contest then in my ever so humble opinion, why go on a diet that is getting ready for a contest. Unless you feel like shedding some quick fat. I agree totally with diets being personal. The only difference between a top body builder and an amature bodybuilder is the top bodybuilder has better living through chemistry. He wont put on fat like the natural guy would. He needs a totally different diet altogether. Oh that would be the Zone diet. Once again. It is the choices of the carbs and not the number of carbs. Strawberries, cucumber, celery count as zero carbs.  I believe in eating healthy. Stick with the fruits and veggies that have the red, green and yellow colors.
> 
> This is not a flame by any means. I just think the three of us are on different pages and there is no one perfect diet. Well there is one. It is the one that you can stick with and make results.  I have learned so much and I just love a good debate. Turbo you are one smart guy and a big credit to the board. Start posting more.


Fair enough, we are singing from the same hymn sheet. The only reason I said atkins/high fat wasnt ideal for the bodybuilders is that regardless of whether you are competiting or not, a bodybuilder has a lot more muscle than the average overweight joe. And, if the bodybuilder is still training, they need a lot more energy & recovery nutriants than the average joe too.

Hey, in your pic, you look like you are totally naked appart from wearing some socks! lol, must be the shadows or something.

I`ll post a pic before long.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Just socks, I see a hat too!


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## turbo (Nov 23, 2003)

hackskii said:


> Just socks, I see a hat too!


lol. Not sure about the car though. Dont think you`d pull many chicks driving one of those.


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

turbo said:


> lol. Not sure about the car though. Dont think you`d pull many chicks driving one of those.


Oh my gosh that is so funny. I was laughing my asss off. Hey turbo why are you looking there in the first place?  Jusk kidding. It's at the river and I am wearing jet ski shoes and a bathingsuit. Thanks for noticing.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Several years ago I pulled a chick in that golf cart. I just pulled it into the bushes and had her all over the golf cart. I had the girlfriend spread wide open in 100 degree weather looking deep inside in direct sunlight on that very golf cart. That used to be my golf cart. Now I got a faster one that has been lifted with offroad tires and rims on it. It was expensive but I use the golf carts to launch my jetskii and dont use my truck or jeep to launch. The golf carts work just fine. I just load that cart up with beer and peanuts and lurk for suspecting potential conquests roaming around the camp ground. I have standards but they are low standards


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## winger (Jul 26, 2003)

Well at least you have standards. Looks like I am going to have to raise the bar on the standards thing myself. 

This is getting off of the subject but he did shag 2 of my girlfriends.  Its ok I had already kicked them to the curb.


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## turbo (Nov 23, 2003)

winger said:


> This is getting off of the subject but he did shag 2 of my girlfriends.  Its ok I had already kicked them to the curb.


Umm.. sloppy seconds and share & share alike eh? Not my cup of tea though.


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