# testosterone very low when will i recover



## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

hello wonder if any one can give me some insight into recover after using gear i been using decca and sustanon on and off for about 10 years but since my last course i have not recovered . my testosterone ws abnormally low i have lost libido i also have lost morning erections and when i ejaculate there is nothing there it is totally dry it has been about 10 months now since my last course finished i can supply you with all my blood test results testosterone lh fsh shbg can someone givw me advice


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## ollie321 (Mar 29, 2010)

big vin said:


> hello wonder if any one can give me some insight into recover after using gear i been using decca and sustanon on and off for about 10 years but since my last course i have not recovered . my testosterone ws abnormally low i have lost libido i also have lost morning erections and when i ejaculate there is nothing there it is totally dry it has been about 10 months now since my last course finished i can supply you with all my blood test results testosterone lh fsh shbg can someone givw me advice


you taking anything at the mo?any sort of pct nolva/clomid maybe some hcg to fire things up. Whats doctor said?


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## SD (Sep 3, 2004)

big vin said:


> hello wonder if any one can give me some insight into recover after using gear i been using decca and sustanon on and off for about 10 years but since my last course i have not recovered . my testosterone ws abnormally low i have lost libido i also have lost morning erections and when i ejaculate there is nothing there it is totally dry it has been about 10 months now since my last course finished i can supply you with all my blood test results testosterone lh fsh shbg can someone givw me advice


YOu dont need to post the same question on four different places mate lol

If you had bloods done then I assume you are under the care of a GP or Endocrinologist?

If not then you really need to see an Endocrinologist, no-one will be able to tell you how long unfortunately but an Endo will see to it that you are monitored and given the right medication.

Out of interest, did you do PCTs? have regular lay offs? It doesnt affect anything as you still need proffessional input.

Blood results would be interesting

SD


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

i have not been on anything for last 10 months i went to see an endocrologist 6 months ago he told me that i may still have some androgens in my body still which will be supressing the natural testosterone he said its just a case of wait and see if i recover i never taken any nolva clomid ever my endo has not avised any of these these are my blood test results that were done last week testoterone 1.7 nmol/l (10.0-37.0) shgb 30 (11-71) fsh 28 (1.0-11.0) lh 12 (1.0-8.0) as you can see testosterone extremely low and fsh and lh very high can you help


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

i have not been on anything for last 10 months i went to see an endocrologist 6 months ago he told me that i may still have some androgens in my body still which will be supressing the natural testosterone he said its just a case of wait and see if i recover i never taken any nolva clomid ever my endo has not avised any of these these are my blood test results that were done last week testoterone 1.7 nmol/l (10.0-37.0) shgb 30 (11-71) fsh 28 (1.0-11.0) lh 12 (1.0-8.0) as you can see testosterone extremely low and fsh and lh very high can you help


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

i have not been on anything for last 10 months i went to see an endocrologist 6 months ago he told me that i may still have some androgens in my body still which will be supressing the natural testosterone he said its just a case of wait and see if i recover i never taken any nolva clomid ever my endo has not avised any of these these are my blood test results that were done last week testoterone 1.7 nmol/l (10.0-37.0) shgb 30 (11-71) fsh 28 (1.0-11.0) lh 12 (1.0-8.0) as you can see testosterone extremely low and fsh and lh very high can you help


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## Mars (Aug 25, 2007)

big vin said:


> i have not been on anything for last 10 months i went to see an endocrologist 6 months ago he told me that i may still have some androgens in my body still which will be supressing the natural testosterone he said its just a case of wait and see if i recover i never taken any nolva clomid ever my endo has not avised any of these these are my blood test results that were done last week testoterone 1.7 nmol/l (10.0-37.0) shgb 30 (11-71) fsh 28 (1.0-11.0) lh 12 (1.0-8.0) as you can see testosterone extremely low and fsh and lh very high can you help





big vin said:


> i have not been on anything for last 10 months i went to see an endocrologist 6 months ago he told me that i may still have some androgens in my body still which will be supressing the natural testosterone he said its just a case of wait and see if i recover i never taken any nolva clomid ever my endo has not avised any of these these are my blood test results that were done last week testoterone 1.7 nmol/l (10.0-37.0) shgb 30 (11-71) fsh 28 (1.0-11.0) lh 12 (1.0-8.0) as you can see testosterone extremely low and fsh and lh very high can you help





big vin said:


> i have not been on anything for last 10 months i went to see an endocrologist 6 months ago he told me that i may still have some androgens in my body still which will be supressing the natural testosterone he said its just a case of wait and see if i recover i never taken any nolva clomid ever my endo has not avised any of these these are my blood test results that were done last week testoterone 1.7 nmol/l (10.0-37.0) shgb 30 (11-71) fsh 28 (1.0-11.0) lh 12 (1.0-8.0) as you can see testosterone extremely low and fsh and lh very high can you help


The same thread posted 4 times and the same post 3 times in half hour.

WHY?

Winding people up won't get you answer mate.

What cycle did you run, you obviously didn't run PCT to help restore natural test function.

PS, you only have to answer once!!!!


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

sorry im new to this i never run anything pct i had been doing just sustanon and decca 2ml of each and sometimes dinabol over a course of about 10 years on and off with breaks of about 6 weeks to 12 weeks in between im worried about my low testosterone and my absence of sperm when i ejaculate do you think that i could never recover have you heard of this its been nearly 10 months ive been like this


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## NickR24 (Sep 9, 2009)

big vin said:


> sorry im new to this i never run anything pct i had been doing just sustanon and decca 2ml of each and sometimes dinabol over a course of about 10 years on and off with breaks of about 6 weeks to 12 weeks in between im worried about my low testosterone and my absence of sperm when i ejaculate do you think that i could never recover have you heard of this its been nearly 10 months ive been like this


Have fun mars... :lol:


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## Dave 0511 (Feb 13, 2009)

to all the lads who blast cruise on here just because it's trendy take note this is what happens,

to the op does your doc know about your gear use? there is no way a doctor is going to prescribe/suggest female anti cancer meds for your low test (nolva etc)


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## testman (Aug 7, 2009)

Deca is hard to recover from, have you ever done pct over the last 10 years? If you havent then ur in big trouble tbh mate

HCG at 1500iu every 3 days, for 15 days, then hit the nolva clomid and aromasin at 20/50/25mg's for 5 weeks, but you may need longer, then go back to and get ur bloods done

Some people advise to run the nolva aswel as well the hcg as it can cause gyno if it converts to estrogen, but im not prone to this so i didnt feel the to, but thats your choice i would reccomend it

Read this

http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/steroid-testosterone-information/13764-here-docs-protocol-hpta-recovery.html

It explains everything in detail


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## Mars (Aug 25, 2007)

Recovery is going to take a long time due to lack of knowledge sadly.

The first thing i would do is read hackskii' PCT sticky and follow his 45 day protocol of nolva, clomid and HCG.


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## Mars (Aug 25, 2007)

Dave 0511 said:


> *to all the lads who blast cruise on here just because it's trendy take note this is what happens,*
> 
> to the op does your doc know about your gear use? there is no way a doctor is going to prescribe/suggest female anti cancer meds for your low test (nolva etc)


 Edit that mate.

This is what happens when you don't know what you are doing :cursing: .


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

my endorologist is a professional and expert in this field i have told him exactly what i have taken in the past 10 years he has not recomended me taking anything like nolva clomid etc to try and restore it now dont know what to do now


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## Dave 0511 (Feb 13, 2009)

mars1960 said:


> Edit that mate.
> 
> This is what happens when you don't know what you are doing :cursing: .


yeah you're right mate it just seems there is a particular penchant on here for it at the minute, mainly because some of the more experienced members/users do it


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## Mars (Aug 25, 2007)

big vin said:


> my endorologist is a professional and expert in this field i have told him exactly what i have taken in the past 10 years he has not recomended me taking anything like nolva clomid etc to try and restore it now dont know what to do now


then why are you asking us if you are going to take the advice of your endo?

I have advised you on what to do, take it or leave it mate.


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## Dave 0511 (Feb 13, 2009)

big vin said:


> my endorologist is a professional and expert in this field i have told him exactly what i have taken in the past 10 years he has not recomended me taking anything like nolva clomid etc to try and restore it now dont know what to do now


in all honesty you wont go far wrong doing watever mars or hacksii say, and good luck mate


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

so what do you guys think i know lots ofguys in the gym that i train for years and none of them have mentioned or have taken clomid hcg etc


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## Dave 0511 (Feb 13, 2009)

thats the point i was making before though, he wouldn't prescribe those drugs because they are not meant to be used for what bodybuilders use them for, even though they appear to be the best thing to get you in shape again


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## Dave 0511 (Feb 13, 2009)

big vin said:


> so what do you guys think i know lots ofguys in the gym that i train for years and none of them have mentioned or have taken clomid hcg etc


just cos everyones doing it doesnt make it right lol.... yeah most average gym goers dont give a **** and i know people who do a shot of deca here and a shot of test there and havent got a clue, and yeah people do gain sometimes, and do appear healthy on the outside, but that means nothing, a proper pct will give you the best chance of maintaining normal levels of all your inner gubbins and whatnot


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

i am not being funny clever or arrogant can you tell me again please what i should do


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## NickR24 (Sep 9, 2009)

mars1960 said:


> then why are you asking us if you are going to take the advice of your endo?
> 
> I have advised you on what to do, take it or leave it mate.


I don't know why you even bother anymore mars, I bet only 1/10 people actually pay any attention thesedays.


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## Mars (Aug 25, 2007)

NickR24 said:


> I don't know why you even bother anymore mars, I bet only 1/10 people actually pay any attention thesedays.


Me neither sometimes mate, tried to rep you for the last post PMSL, but got to spread the love  .


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## NickR24 (Sep 9, 2009)

mars1960 said:


> Me neither sometimes mate, tried to rep you for the last post PMSL, but got to spread the love  .


LOL I can wait a little while longer pal...not too long though, I want my 1000reps...only 16,000 more to go til im back to where I was :lol:


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## Mars (Aug 25, 2007)

big vin said:


> i am not being funny clever or arrogant can you *tell me again please what i should do*


I told you in post #12 and testman gave you the link in post #11.


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

so do you think i have a chance of recovering have you seen my blood test results and have you ever come across case where someone ejaculates and nothing comes out at all is it posible for you to tell me what to take and where to get it from and how long would it tke to recover if at all and would going back on gear affect it or should i stay off gear not been on anything for 10 months i apprciate your replies even though you think im being funny but im not i can asure you


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## UKWolverine (Apr 25, 2009)

The way I see it you have two choices, either follow the long process of endo consultations and live with low test until it rebounds, with perhaps a future of doc supervised TRT

or

follow the advice of knowledgable people who actually know what they are saying from real world experience and stand a good chance of rebounding yourself quickly.

Doctors really aren't as knowlegable as experienced AAS users when it comes to HPTA rebound.

I know who I would trust.


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

do you think i have a chance of recovery have you ever come across somebody with such low testosterone and nothing coming out whhen ejaculate


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

i am still training but can i still build muscle even eith my extremely low testosterone and does testosterone aid the burning of fat so will i get fat as i have read that low testosterone causes you to get fat or that is one of the symptons


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

do you think i have a chance of recovery have you ever come across somebody with such low testosterone and nothing coming out whhen ejaculate


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## UKWolverine (Apr 25, 2009)

Fat gain and muscle catabalism is more high estrogen than low testosterone as it's highly suppressive, you need to control it to bring everything back to a happy balance.

This is what you will address if you follow Hackskis recovery protocol.

You've got some research to do my friend.


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## ollie321 (Mar 29, 2010)

Think only time will tell mate, youve obv caused some real damage, and just cuz other people dont do pct, its like the would you jump cuz he says to.

Im fairly new to this and ive read thread after thread to get the right information from the oap's of the site (sorry only joke) and I tell you what I would not have concidered touching the stuff if it hadnt been for their help and expertise. and if someone with years of proper use and protorcol makes a suggestion id follow it. I havent even done my first aas yet waiting to finish my designer stuff, even I know about the use of AI's, and serms such as nolvadex/clomid for pct. Not being funny this is why steroids have such a bad rep, the people who think I know better or cant be bothered to do their homework.

Good luck with recovery. :whistling:


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

my shbg is 33 which is in range what does this relate to


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

have you seen the blood tests i put on do i have high estrogen i dont know what to do im a very wealthy man money is no object i will pay for good information or to see someone who can help me


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## fadel (Feb 13, 2010)

I think you need to stop being so narrow minded and just listen to what people like Mars are telling you, run the PCT, if money is no object what harm will it do if you have 0 test anyway? Don't mean that to sound harsh but you really should listen to the guys here who know what they're talking about.


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## UKWolverine (Apr 25, 2009)

big vin said:


> have you seen the blood tests i put on do i have high estrogen i dont know what to do im a very wealthy man money is no object i will pay for good information or to see someone who can help me


I think there was a specialist private doctor on here who has lots of experience with AAS, his clinic was in Wales if I remember.

Perhaps PM one of the mods. Unless someone else can remember his name and web address?


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## ollie321 (Mar 29, 2010)

Try running Nolvadex 40/40/20/20/20/20 and clomid 100/100/50/50/50/50

so thats mg per day per week.

add some aromasin run for 4 weeks at 25mg everyday see how you get on with that.


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

i am listening its a big problem if when i ejaculate nothing comes out im infertile when have iever not listened to anyone just find it a bit confusing someone asked me if i had seen an endo and i said yes then they asked me what he said and i told them then they said so why you asking us if you are seeing an endo im only tring to be thorough i have no idea where to get this clomid nolva hcg


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## ollie321 (Mar 29, 2010)

big vin said:


> i am listening its a big problem if when i ejaculate nothing comes out im infertile when have iever not listened to anyone just find it a bit confusing someone asked me if i had seen an endo and i said yes then they asked me what he said and i told them then they said so why you asking us if you are seeing an endo im only tring to be thorough i have no idea where to get this clomid nolva hcg


whats your email address


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

not trying to be arrogant but can you put i i simple terms what to take and how much to take and where i can get it from thanks


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## testman (Aug 7, 2009)

mate you will recover if you do whats been said

whoever you buy your gear off will probably have access to hcg clomid nolva

dont take anymore steroids

so

go back to page one and read the thread from there

1.get the stuff

2.do whats been said

3.get bloods done

Then you will know if you recovered or not

4.come on here and tell us if you have or not


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## Mars (Aug 25, 2007)

big vin said:


> so do you think i have a chance of recovering have you seen my blood test results and have you ever come across case where someone ejaculates and nothing comes out at all is it posible for you to tell me what to take and where to get it from and how long would it tke to recover if at all and would going back on gear affect it or should i stay off gear not been on anything for 10 months i apprciate your replies even though you think im being funny but im not i can asure you





big vin said:


> do you think i have a chance of recovery have you ever come across somebody with such low testosterone and nothing coming out whhen ejaculate





big vin said:


> do you think i have a chance of recovery have you ever come across somebody with such low testosterone and nothing coming out whhen ejaculate





big vin said:


> have you seen the blood tests i put on do i have high estrogen i dont know what to do im a very wealthy man money is no object i will pay for good information or to see someone who can help me


Stop multi posting the same damn thing ffs.

yes iv'e seen the test results, yes ive read the thread, yes i have come accross this before and YES you have a chance to recover, thats why i'm trying to help, but you aren't listening.

Why pay, i have given you the info you need, now it's up to you, i'm out of here before i get banned for flaming. :cursing:


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## ollie321 (Mar 29, 2010)

big vin said:


> not trying to be arrogant but can you put i i simple terms what to take and how much to take and where i can get it from thanks


I cant over the site, you cant give out sources,

you need to get clomid take 100mg per day everyday for 2 weeks then take 50mg perday for the following 4 weeks, clomid helps to reduce estrogen while increasing your own test levels

Nolvadex take 40mg everyday for 2 weeks then 20mg per day for the following 4 weeks

Aromasin Take 25mg per day for 4 weeks

Thatl be £10,000 for the advice you said money wasnt a issue LOL


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

but you are all telling me to take different amounts of this hcg clomid etc please can someone tell me who knows best as i dont want to mess up im taking your advice and listening think you said hacksii knows best if you are there can you tell me what to take in plain and exactly how much to take i really appreciate this guys i will do it and keep you informed thanks


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

sorry mars 1960 i was getting confused with the post i want to take your advise so can you tell me in simple what to take how much to take exactly and how long for much appreciated


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## ollie321 (Mar 29, 2010)

big vin said:


> but you are all telling me to take different amounts of this hcg clomid etc please can someone tell me who knows best as i dont want to mess up im taking your advice and listening think you said hacksii knows best if you are there can you tell me what to take in plain and exactly how much to take i really appreciate this guys i will do it and keep you informed thanks


At the end of the day everyone is diff its trial and error, start off at an high dose if it seems to be working start lowering over a period of time, from what people have put a 6 week pct (post cycle therapy) would be best for you and even then mate no guarentees although I would be very supprised if you didnt see a big improvement.

to find the stuf google buy clomid, buy nolvadex, buy aromasin

I do feel for you but, tbh im supprised ur doc aint given you anything, he prob dont know much bout steroids or pct etc


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## Mars (Aug 25, 2007)

big vin said:


> but you are all telling me to take different amounts of this hcg clomid etc please can someone tell me who knows best as i dont want to mess up im taking your advice and listening think you said hacksii knows best if you are there can you tell me what to take in plain and exactly how much to take i really appreciate this guys i will do it and keep you informed thanks


Last time and NO i didn't tell you different amounts.

I said (at the risk of repeating myself :cursing: ) follow hackskii' 45 day nolva, clomid and HCG protocol.


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## UKWolverine (Apr 25, 2009)

have you read Hackskiis thread yet?

I think people are getting annoyed because you just want spoon feeding and are not doing any proactive research off your own back.


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

to be fair thats not putting it simple what is the 45 day protocol that does not tell me how many milligammes of each substance i need and when to take it can you just explain in simple terms exactly how much of clomid nolva etc then i know how much to get i appreciate this


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

sorry to annoy people i just want to know what to take dont mean any offence


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## Mars (Aug 25, 2007)

big vin said:


> to be fair thats not putting it simple what is the 45 day protocol that does not tell me how many milligammes of each substance i need and when to take it can you just explain in simple terms exactly how much of clomid nolva etc then i know how much to get i appreciate this


YES IT DOES, i've had enough of this idiot, bye.


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## Phil D (Feb 21, 2010)

Mars, i honestly dont know how you have the patience!


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

olllie i looked for atop private endo and paid £500 an hour for his services and he said that he sees people in my situation all the time and in his experience although it is impossible to check through blood tests etc that i still had androgens in my body which was supressing my natural testosterone and i had to wait for themto leave as they ccan stay in for a lonhg time he was concerned about my high fsh and lh levels because they were telling the testes to produce the sperm and he feared that i might never recover


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

ok mars so what im going to do is get some clomud nolva hcg and go on a 45 day protocol that does not help me what is a 45 day protocol iyou have not told me how much of these substances to take and when if anyone knows can they tell me please


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

ok i have looked back on all my replies and cannot find hacksiis thread so i cant win


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## TH0R (Aug 15, 2007)

http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/steroid-testosterone-information/13764-here-docs-protocol-hpta-recovery.html

this is hackski's thread, read it mate and then ask if your unsure


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## goonerton (Sep 7, 2009)

I think this is the one they are talking about:

http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/steroid-testosterone-information/13764-here-docs-protocol-hpta-recovery.html

If I was you I would join as many BBing forums sites as I could find and ask your question on all of them. That way you will get a wider pool of information and hopefully find a general consensus...


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## TH0R (Aug 15, 2007)

http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/steroid-testosterone-information/47593-understanding-pct.html

read this one as well


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## TH0R (Aug 15, 2007)

goonerton said:


> I think this is the one they are talking about:
> 
> http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/steroid-testosterone-information/13764-here-docs-protocol-hpta-recovery.html
> 
> *If I was you I would join as many BBing forums sites as I could find and ask your question on all of them. That way you will get a wider pool of information and hopefully find a general consensus...*


Why, so he can confuse himself even more, do what Mars says and you'll have

the best chance, stop acting like a tool as well:thumbup1:


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

i have seen that but it does not explain what to take its just questions and answes from someone elses conversation i just need to know what to get in plain simple terms then i can get it immediately and report back i need to know how much of each substance and how much to take and how long for ollie posted this reply is this what i need to get? you need to get clomid take 100mg per day everyday for 2 weeks then take 50mg perday for the following 4 weeks, clomid helps to reduce estrogen while increasing your own test levels

Nolvadex take 40mg everyday for 2 weeks then 20mg per day for the following 4 weeks

Aromasin Take 25mg per day for 4 weeks


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## TH0R (Aug 15, 2007)

You have no intelligence, read the opening post again

I'm out


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

mars listen im not being funny i have my debit card ready i need to know what t get how and how much to get mg etc then i need to know how much of it to take and when and how long for i cant go to someone and say i want a 45 day protocol of clomid nolva hcg they would not know what i meant and i would not know how much to take just plain and simple how many mg of each substance and how long for and when to take


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## Jecko (Feb 8, 2010)

big vin said:


> i have seen that but it does not explain what to take its just questions and answes from someone elses conversation i just need to know what to get in plain simple terms then i can get it immediately and report back i need to know how much of each substance and how much to take and how long for ollie posted this reply is this what i need to get? you need to get clomid take 100mg per day everyday for 2 weeks then take 50mg perday for the following 4 weeks, clomid helps to reduce estrogen while increasing your own test levels
> 
> Nolvadex take 40mg everyday for 2 weeks then 20mg per day for the following 4 weeks
> 
> Aromasin Take 25mg per day for 4 weeks


Are you sure you have done this for 10years on and off? I have no knowledge, in this field. Yet i think i know more than you do from reading different threads. Not because i wanna do 'em, (yet  ) but because it helps you learn.

To me, for someone that has done it 10years on and off, no knowledge, and cannot even read the simple thread/s that have been posted, you seem like a 10 year old!

http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/steroid-testosterone-information/13764-here-docs-protocol-hpta-recovery-22.html

READDD the first damn post. It's nothing hard. I have read it, and get it. Read it 500 times if you have to!

Also, just read your post below. Do a search on the forum. Go to the steroids sections! Look around. Can you not just workout how much you need. Does it matter if you get too much? Aslong as you get enough to do

"He suggests 8 shots of HCG @ 2500iu EOD.

With this you take 20 mg of nolvadex for 45 days." -> 45 days worth!!

Work it out you baby!

Want us to deliver that for you too?


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## ollie321 (Mar 29, 2010)

big vin said:


> i have seen that but it does not explain what to take its just questions and answes from someone elses conversation i just need to know what to get in plain simple terms then i can get it immediately and report back i need to know how much of each substance and how much to take and how long for ollie posted this reply is this what i need to get? you need to get clomid take 100mg per day everyday for 2 weeks then take 50mg perday for the following 4 weeks, clomid helps to reduce estrogen while increasing your own test levels
> 
> Nolvadex take 40mg everyday for 2 weeks then 20mg per day for the following 4 weeks
> 
> Aromasin Take 25mg per day for 4 weeks


so where have i not been clear?


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## ollie321 (Mar 29, 2010)

Jecko said:


> Are you sure you have done this for 10years on and off? I have no knowledge, in this field. Yet i think i know more than you do from reading different threads. Not because i wanna do 'em, (yet  ) but because it helps you learn.
> 
> To me, for someone that has done it 10years on and off, no knowledge, and cannot even read the simple thread/s that have been posted, you seem like a 10 year old!
> 
> ...


 :thumb:


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

so is this what i do ....

8 shots of HCG @ 2500iu EOD.

With this you take 20 mg of nolvadex for 45 days.

Clomid is also taken but twice a day @ 50mg each dose 12 hours apart. simple yes or no


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## Jecko (Feb 8, 2010)

1) *8* shots of* HCG @ 2500iu EOD*.

2) *20 mg* of *nolvadex* for *45 days*

3) *Clomid*, *twice a day* @ *50mg* each dose *12 hours apart*.

(This part is just a description on what will happen etc, no more instructins in here)!

The reason for the amounts of HCG (which is the most important part, if the balls don't fire everything else is worthless), is based on his determination to bring the balls back to life, too little wont accomplish this, too much risks damage to the Leydig cells.

So he basically was saying that you do the HCG and around day 10 of the above protocol, you should get a blood test for testosterone. If it is above 400 or greater then this says the balls will be just fine once you get off the HCG and the Clomid and nolva take over. This will accept the LH that you are putting out to maintain testicular function.

He used the term like jumping a car. Your battery (Pituitary gland) if low wont start your car (your testicles), if you use another car and jumper cables (HCG) once the car starts your battery (HP part of the HPTA) will keep your car running.

The clomid by itself he suggested can inhibit either the pituitary or the hypothalamus (can't remember which one) but if taken with nolva this blocks the estrogen receptors so you wont inhibit that.

So clomid in his protocol is always taken with nolvadex ALWAYS.

He did mention that sometimes the balls just don't take and then you do the protocol again. He said it was rare that he could not fire up the HPTA.

He said that beings that I have good size difference (balls), feel good, strength gains, and a greasy face he felt I should have no problems with returning the HPTA.

What do i win?


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## El Ricardinho (May 30, 2008)

to take juice for 10 years and not have any knowlegde of PCT is worrying. i hope you get yourself sorted tho.


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## mizzion (Aug 5, 2008)

NickR24 said:


> LOL I can wait a little while longer pal...not too long though, I want my 1000reps...only 16,000 more to go til im back to where I was :lol:


lol rep up :thumb:


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## Slindog (Oct 6, 2009)

mars1960 said:


> Me neither sometimes mate, tried to rep you for the last post PMSL, but got to spread the love  .


for sure mate, you are a class act, and you are helping a lot of people, including me. Thanks for contributing ot the forum. Gotta give credit to were it is deserved


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

i have been back to the endo and he has aid it very unlikely that i will recover as my blood test showing no increase in testosterone in last 8 months showing very high lh and fsh and extemely low testosterone 1.5 should be between 10 and 20 he has now suggested that he put me n testosterone replacement therapy with shots of sustanon 250 i mentioned the hpta protocol and he said he has no experience in this rea


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## Dean00 (Jan 25, 2009)

Do the hcg 2500ius and everything else said on the hpta thread it WILL work.

Your 500 bucks an hour endo even said himself he hasnt as clue about the hpta protocol.


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

he said he ws a medical practioner and and endocrologist he has been trained with medice that has been tested on animals he was asking me who i was getting the dvise from as to the protocol you suggested and do these people have qualifications? i argued that these guys are experienced through actual trial and error i have done quite a bit of research what is worrying me is this protocol you suggest is to raise lh and fsh levels sending signals to the testes to create testosterone but my lh and fsh are extremely high thus the signals are there to the testes suggesting that the testes are ho longer working and are knackeree please correct me if i am wrong . i have booked an appointment with another endo for next week for a second opinion i appreciate your advice


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

do you know where i can get this stuff from? i can provide you with email adress if you dont want to put it on here thanks


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## bigmitch69 (May 14, 2008)

I have qualifications (granted nothing medical but i do have an Accounting degree) send me £150 cash and i will send you a list of what you need and when to take them. I will write it out in big bold letters and in a way a child could understand so you will have no problems. For an extra fee of £250 i will ring you twice a day during the 45 day PCT recovery period and tell you which pills to take.

How does this sound?

:thumb:


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

what my endorologist is saying because my fsh ans lh levels are high i the problem lies in my testicles and they are knackered are you reading my blood test results as you are giving me rthis information? are you looking at the fsh and lh levels as well as the testosterone nd shgb?


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

what my endorologist is saying because my fsh and lh levels are high the problem lies in my testicles and they are knackered are you reading my blood test results as you are giving me right advice information? are you looking at the fsh and lh levels as well as the testosterone nd shgb?


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## Dean00 (Jan 25, 2009)

bigmitch69 said:


> I have qualifications (granted nothing medical but i do have an Accounting degree) send me £150 cash and i will send you a list of what you need and when to take them. I will write it out in big bold letters and in a way a child could understand so you will have no problems. For an extra fee of £250 i will ring you twice a day during the 45 day PCT recovery period and tell you which pills to take.
> 
> How does this sound?
> 
> :thumb:


cheeky kooont :lol:


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## Old but not out (Sep 8, 2009)

YOU NEED TO DO THE HCG PROTOCOL AS DESCRIBED. THIS WILL GET YOUR TESTICLES WORKING AGAIN. YOU THEN NEED THE CLOMID AND NOLVA - EVEN THOUGH YOUR LH AND FSH IS HIGH NOW IT WILL BE LOW AFTER HCG.

IF YOU FOLLOW THIS YOU MAY OR MAY NOT BE OK. AT THE MOMENT YOU HAVE NO CHANCE - WHAT HAVE YOU GOT TO LOSE?


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## bigmitch69 (May 14, 2008)

Dean00 said:


> cheeky kooont :lol:


Well he seems a bit thick and he did say he was wealthy so i'm offering a service to earn myself some beer tokens ha ha! I'll even laminate the list for him incase he dribbles on it


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## Scott.EFC (Jan 5, 2010)

bigmitch69 said:


> Well he seems a bit thick and he did say he was wealthy so i'm offering a service to earn myself some beer tokens ha ha! *I'll even laminate the list for him incase he dribbles on it*


 :lol:


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

you are right it looks like i have nothing to lose as the endo is advising me to go on testosterone replacement therapy but thAt means i will be on that for life. do you also realise that i have never done pct and is in not too late as it has been about 10 months since my last injection of the steroids?


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

im not thick i just want to be 100% sure im doing the right thing


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

???


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## FATBOY (Mar 4, 2008)

how can it not be the right thing, listen to mars m8 give it a shot at the end of the day bodybuilders have far more practical experience of recovering from steroid shutdown than most docters .

and plus all there testing is done on humans


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## stonecoldzero (Aug 30, 2009)

I've finally lost the will to post .....................................


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

what i dont understand is this if this protocol works why has it not been submitted to the medical world this would be a breakthrough because a lot of people will not need the trt would save national health money as well cant understand why both my endos are not prescribing it to me when i have shown them the foundings on here i have printed the protocol out with all the backing evidence yet yhey wont prescribe it yet would rather put me on trt which will shut down my hpta permantely just dont get it


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

is it not too late to start this protocol ? its been 10 months since my last injection


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## Cra16 (Jan 23, 2010)

big vin said:


> what i dont understand is this if this protocol works why has it not been submitted to the medical world this would be a breakthrough because a lot of people will not need the trt would save national health money as well cant understand why both my endos are not prescribing it to me when i have shown them the foundings on here i have printed the protocol out with all the backing evidence yet yhey wont prescribe it yet would rather put me on trt which will shut down my hpta permantely just dont get it


Drugs have primary and secondary uses. None of the primary uses of any of these drugs is resoration of the HTPA. Yes it is a surprise that none of the big pharma companies have spent the resources investing millions on how to recover steroid users natural test levels.

Doctors usually only perscribe meds off their primary use, theres a governing body to make sure they do this. However the bodybuilding community have found secondry uses for these meds as we just buy them rather than need approval for a perscription.

Doctors are rarely inovative as it could cost their job, basically Vin your doctor doesn't want the chance of losing his job to get your natural test levels back and given your nature I really don't blame him.

Now all the meds mentioned are really very readily available if you ask around your gym so its either time to give it ago or shut the fu3k up


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

ok so could me giving this a go could it not further mess things up even more could it make things permanentely worse if it goes wrong you got to understand i been taking steroids for years without proper knowledge i know i been stupid but its done now you got to see why im very cautous about taking any kind of drugs again


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## Mars (Aug 25, 2007)

big vin said:


> *ok so could me giving this a go could it not further mess things up even more could it make things permanentely worse* if it goes wrong you got to understand i been taking steroids for years without proper knowledge i know i been stupid but its done now you got to see why im very cautous about taking any kind of drugs again


NO, do you think we would recommend this sort of thing if that was the case? unbelievable, what do you think we are?

I'm def done on this thread.


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## Cra16 (Jan 23, 2010)

mars1960 said:


> NO, do you think we would recommend this sort of thing if that was the case? unbelievable, what do you think we are?
> 
> I'm def done on this thread.


Is this guy trying to get medical advice off people to then turn around and sue? Something is off key.


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

well i never meant to insult any of you and any of your intelligence but i been getting steroids of people for years and no one ever mentioned about pct so obviously im going to be wary about information i get


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

i am not trying to sue anybody i am just a very worried and concerned why i have zero libido no morning woods when i ejaculate nothing at all comes out been like this for 10 months since my last course of steroids extremely low testosterone very high fsh and lh i have had 9 blood tests since 10 mnths ago nothing has changed since first one fsh 27 (1.0-11.0) lh 12 (1.0-8.0) testosterone 1.6 nmol/l (10.0-37.0) shgb 30 (11-71)


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## Mars (Aug 25, 2007)

big vin said:


> well i never meant to insult any of you and any of your intelligence but i been getting steroids of people for years and no one ever mentioned about pct so obviously im going to be wary about information i get


Thats not our fault, it's yours, get on with it.


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

i am going to see one more endo for a third opinion on 11th may see what he says then going to give the protocol a go thanks for all your advice lads even though it does not look like i appreciate it because i do


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## johnnyreid (May 4, 2009)

that took some reading then, i wanted to throw my monitor outta the window at points. I think this guy has selective reading syndrome lol

essentially ignores everyone else and posts the same questions over and over.

do you realise your answer was on page 1? if you would have started that protocol back then you may even have some test by this point!


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

i couldnt just take the first answer and jump in straight away i needed more views and advice wish i had done the same before i first took any steroids maybe i would not be here posting this


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## bassmonster (Aug 29, 2009)

johnnyreid said:


> that took some reading then, i wanted to throw my monitor outta the window at points. I think this guy has selective reading syndrome lol


x2....

You actually paid £500 an hour to the endo? I think you would have just been better with the NHS would probably would have been helpful.

Anyway, it'lls get more boring if i just echo on what the guys have already said about taking on board mars' advice.

You really don't have much choice at the moment seeing as your soldiers have disappeared. If i were you I'd start the protocol immediately.

also, after 10 years of gear, i would have thought you'd be bigger. 

please google commas, fullstops, punctuation marks.....

anyway, hope you get it sorted fella...


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## bassmonster (Aug 29, 2009)

You might wanna go to http://www.physicalfrontiers.co.uk/

There is an email and contact number at bottom of the page. Jas Lidder who is a bodybuilder and doctor who has a clinic in harley street maybe able to help. Might be worth just giving them a call first and explain your problem.


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

tried nhs but the choose and book system kept sending me to wrong hospitals the last one was an endocrine surgeon totally different field he specialised in thyroid ops thats why i went private and thats a recent pic that is a pic of me with no gear in my system for nearly a year not only that but testosterone of a child


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## bassmonster (Aug 29, 2009)

mate, not being funny but's it's rather frustrating reading your posts with the absence of punction marks!


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## deano (Feb 22, 2009)

Vin,

Did you actually ask this many questions and over think things BEFORE you started taking decca and sustanon? If so i dont think you would have even started taking the steroids, considering the possible sides effects.


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## Old but not out (Sep 8, 2009)

The worse that could happen is TRT - you are already there!!!


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## alan87 (Apr 27, 2009)

I got to about page 6 on this thread and actually wanted to shoot myself!!my goodddd


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

What one of my endocrinoligsts did say is, that in his experience with this matter as he says he deals with steroids users quite a lot is that he thinks that i still have androgens in my body being the decca (but unfortunately tee is no tests that can be done to find this out) and in his experience the decca stays in the system for a very long time and this is what is supressing my natural test and i need to give it some more time to leave my body. This is what he sad 4 months ago i am going to see him again in 2 weeks time


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## bassmonster (Aug 29, 2009)

big vin said:


> What one of my endocrinoligsts did say is, that in his experience with this matter as he says he deals with steroids users quite a lot is that he thinks that i still have androgens in my body being the decca (but unfortunately tee is no tests that can be done to find this out) and in his experience the decca stays in the system for a very long time and this is what is supressing my natural test and i need to give it some more time to leave my body. This is what he sad 4 months ago i am going to see him again in 2 weeks time


as far as i know, deca can stay in your system for up to 18 months.....


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

yeah mate that is what he said


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

no you are right it does not seem a bad idea when i see him in 2 weeks time im going to tell him that im going to do the pct just so he knows everything because he will be doing more blood work and i want him to have the full picture


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

can any of you you guys answer me this question, im still trainining at the moment and have never stopped but what are your views on me training with my very low test will i still be able to build muscle


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## fat-2-thi-2-mus (Mar 8, 2010)

some of my friends did pretty much the same as you and geared up for years at a time and they were horrified when the balls never came back... they were a fraction of who they used to be ..untill they did there homework and 2/3 of them (the other just went back on the gear lol) are on there way to full recovery with a protocal similar to haki's....mate what have you got to loose??? a man without test is not a man...so unless you like being a female..stop being so f'in stubborn and thinking you know whats best as you obviously dont or you would not be here....do it! :thumb:


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## BillC (Jun 11, 2009)

IF the deca was still in his system causing the shutdown, wouldn't the fsh and lh be shot to sh!t. Common sense tells me that his balls are knackered from being supressed for so long. His body is trying to fire them up with the high lh/fsh.

Honestly pal, try the protocol as has already been said, worst case scenario, it doesn't work and you're on trt for the rest of your life, which is basically were you are at is it not?

To those in the know, could he not start using proviron in the mean time to absorb some of that shbg and allow his test levels to come up?


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## fat-2-thi-2-mus (Mar 8, 2010)

cant really help you on building muscle on low test mate...wouldnt think so as you may slip into overtraining very easil and lower your test levels even more!


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

i dont know whats best thats why i am asking for advice, i have printed the protocol out and printed the 4 page pct named understanding pct off here which i am going to s.how my endo so he knows , and yes thats what the endo was concerned about my fsh and lh high which worried him saying my balls may be knackered. i will see what he says when i see him on the 11th would see him sooner but he is on holiday as for trt the other endo wants to put me on trt which he said would involve shots of sustanon 250 . IF WORST CAME TO THE WORST AND I HAD TO GO ON TRT IF AEVERYTHING ELSE FAILED WOULD THAT MEAN MY TESTOSTERONE BE BACK TO NORMAL AND I COULD CARRY ON TRAINING AND BUILD MUSCLE.Sorry to sound paranoid but im sure this low test is making me like that i just dont feel normal and i really appreciate this advice guys my gp was totally useless thats why i went private .


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

if i liked being a female i would not be trying to sort ths out and paying huge sums of money to see endocrinologists and would not be busting my gut in the gym and would not be asking advice from you


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

billC think you are correct in what you are saying my balls could be knackered from being supressed for so many years and the fact that when i ejaculate there is nothing coming out is very worrying


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## fat-2-thi-2-mus (Mar 8, 2010)

:lol: easy big man..stop being so touchy we are on here trying to help you...not too sure on the trt as i know no one on it...your better pm'ing haki or one of the MODs.... i seriously would advise getting on the protocal asap...the longer you leave it the harder it gets to recover...when you seeing ur endo??


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

i have an appointment with my endo on 11th may thats 2 weeks time


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## fat-2-thi-2-mus (Mar 8, 2010)

suppose 2 weeks will make not that much difference to your nads as they have been shutdown for 10 years!! anyway ...you are better of speaking to someone with TRT experiance and they could answer your questions...

all the best...my advice (again) run the protocal...you have nothing to lose.


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

im not going to run the protocol till i seen my endo in 2 weeks as he wants a blood test when i see him and i am going to get that done 2 days before i see him so he knows exactly where i am . then i will do the protocol


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

you know when i first started training there were was no internet and you could net get advice on steroids like you can now . wish there had been forums like this too.


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## Dagman72 (Apr 2, 2009)

big vin said:


> you know when i first started training there were was no internet and you could net get advice on steroids like you can now . wish there had been forums like this too.


Very true mate and to others do research before listerning to the guy down the gym.

But this thread is a good lesson to people who do not want to come of or do any PCT - things eventually catch up and bite you in the ass.

I hope everything works out for you mate and keep us all updated.


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

thanks and i will keep you all updated


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## Dave 0511 (Feb 13, 2009)

big vin said:


> you know when i first started training there were was no internet and you could net get advice on steroids like you can now . wish there had been forums like this too.


true and some people on here would do well to remember that. 10 years ago people couldn't just private message a top amatuer bodybuilder and ask for steroid advice. besides the fact there are still thousands of people in gyms up and down the country who do not use the web, and couldnt give a **** about pct and just cycle all year .

lads just because this guy doesn't elocute himself very well online doesn't mean he is unworthy of help. yes people have said here is the thread but as usual people are mostly just copying and pasting what other people know, with no real knowledge themselves. he is obviously just worried and wants help and reassurance... for ****s sake give him a break and think how many of you would be in his position if you didnt have access to the internet and the advice of top amatuers or knowledgable members.


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## BillC (Jun 11, 2009)

Dave 0511 said:


> true and some people on here would do well to remember that. 10 years ago people couldn't just private message a top amatuer bodybuilder and ask for steroid advice. besides the fact there are still thousands of people in gyms up and down the country who do not use the web, and couldnt give a **** about pct and just cycle all year .
> 
> lads just because this guy doesn't elocute himself very well online doesn't mean he is unworthy of help. yes people have said here is the thread but as usual people are mostly just copying and pasting what other people know, with no real knowledge themselves. he is obviously just worried and wants help and reassurance... for ****s sake give him a break and think how many of you would be in his position if you didnt have access to the internet and the advice of top amatuers or knowledgable members.


 :thumb: x2

My nuts shut down for a long time when younger, and as said, there was no iternet, no books on steroids to be had, you listened to the big guy in the gym. I remember my nuts havaing dissapeared, gym owner saying take this and inject every 3rd day. If after the 3 shots, they still aren't there, go to docs you need trt. It was 3 shots hcg, lol, thats it!

Thing is, as I say to the muppets at the gym, no excuse nowadays with the advent of the internet for not knowing what you are taking.


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

i have just rang my endocrinologists secretary on the off chance there was a sooner appointment they have said there is one this afternoon so i am going seing him at 3.oclock today (funny how when you wave money you can get appointments) will let you all know how i get on


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## Dagman72 (Apr 2, 2009)

big vin said:


> i have just rang my endocrinologists secretary on the off chance there was a sooner appointment they have said there is one this afternoon so i am going seing him at 3.oclock today (funny how when you wave money you can get appointments) will let you all know how i get on


Sad but money talks I'm afraid :cursing:


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## fat-2-thi-2-mus (Mar 8, 2010)

good luck...see what he thinks of the protocal..

keep us all posted

f:thumb:


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

i have printed out the protocol and printed out the information on here explaing pct in full and i am going to take it to him will see what he says he will be famliar with hgh clomid nolvadex etc as he is very experienced he is a top endo specialising in male hormones so will see what he says and i will post back to you later on


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## kgb (Sep 13, 2009)

Best of luck Vin


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## MR RIGSBY (Jun 12, 2007)

Dave 0511 said:


> true and some people on here would do well to remember that. 10 years ago people couldn't just private message a top amatuer bodybuilder and ask for steroid advice. besides the fact there are still thousands of people in gyms up and down the country who do not use the web, and couldnt give a **** about pct and just cycle all year .
> 
> lads just because this guy doesn't elocute himself very well online doesn't mean he is unworthy of help. yes people have said here is the thread but as usual people are mostly just copying and pasting what other people know, with no real knowledge themselves. he is obviously just worried and wants help and reassurance... for ****s sake give him a break and think how many of you would be in his position if you didnt have access to the internet and the advice of top amatuers or knowledgable members.


Couldn't have put it better mate. There are some right pompous feckers on this board who like to lord it up over every one else. If only we could all be as perfect as them eh?


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## Mars (Aug 25, 2007)

Dave 0511 said:


> true and some people on here would do well to remember that. 10 years ago people couldn't just private message a top amatuer bodybuilder and ask for steroid advice. besides the fact there are still thousands of people in gyms up and down the country who do not use the web, and couldnt give a **** about pct and just cycle all year .
> 
> lads just because this guy doesn't elocute himself very well online doesn't mean he is unworthy of help. yes people have said here is the thread but as usual people are mostly just copying and pasting what other people know, with no real knowledge themselves. *he is obviously just worried and wants help and reassurance... for ****s sake give him a break *and think how many of you would be in his position if you didnt have access to the internet and the advice of top amatuers or knowledgable members.


Yeah and most of us have tried our very best to give it to him, but as you can see many of us are at the end of our tether and if you read everything vin has posted you can surely see why, he won't listen, all he keeps banging on about is his professional endo and he still is, it's not through want of trying so why don't you give us who have tried to help a break.



MR RIGSBY said:


> Couldn't have put it better mate. There are some right pompous feckers on this board who like to lord it up over every one else. If only we could all be as perfect as them eh?


If you have problem with some members name them.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

big vin said:


> i have not been on anything for last 10 months i went to see an endocrologist 6 months ago he told me that i may still have some androgens in my body still which will be supressing the natural testosterone he said its just a case of wait and see if i recover i never taken any nolva clomid ever my endo has not avised any of these these are my blood test results that were done last week testoterone 1.7 nmol/l (10.0-37.0) shgb 30 (11-71) fsh 28 (1.0-11.0) lh 12 (1.0-8.0) as you can see testosterone extremely low and fsh and lh very high can you help


The reason why your LH and FSH are so high is because the testicles are not responding to the signals.

Older men tend to have higher numbers yet lower T levels.

At the looks of things on the outside, you probably are primary hypognadism.

Me personally (although I have not read any of the posts), clomid and nolva will be of no value, well little.

HCG would be your best bet here.

You may stay shutdown for over a year, have heard horror stories of two years actually.

Deca probably has some influence here as the metabolites tend to hang around and months later tend to still cause some supression.

So, depending on the amounts you were shooting, it could take a month for the deca or longer to clear.

Have its metabolites hang around for another few months still causeing some supression.

So, lets say 4 to 5 months down the road your LH and FSH start to fire up, nuts dont take the signal, and due to atrophy your levels will come back very slowly.

You probaly will recover, but me personally I would get on some HCG.

Read my recovery protocol on Understanding PCT and The doctors recovery, I think they are both stickies in the steroid section.


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## ollie321 (Mar 29, 2010)

Going off subject for a mo, Has anyone had any experience with geneza pharma?


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

big vin said:


> ok so could me giving this a go could it not further mess things up even more could it make things permanentely worse if it goes wrong you got to understand i been taking steroids for years without proper knowledge i know i been stupid but its done now you got to see why im very cautous about taking any kind of drugs again


No, if you are primary hypogonadism, you are already messed up.

High FSH and LH would suggest you are primary, but the test for that happens to be in this .PDF below, same stuff the endo's use to determine.

Now if HCG is the drug they use to test for primary hypogonadism, dont you think that would be a good drug to blast the balls back into submission?

If the HCG fails, they you are back on TRT which is what the doctor wanted to put you on anyway as he does not know how to treat anabolic steroid insuced hypogonadism (AISH).

Yes there are doctors that treat AISH, I had the pleasure of talking about this topic with a top doc that does in fact treat this condition.

Remember AISH is diffrent than one that nuts just dont work.



big vin said:


> What one of my endocrinoligsts did say is, that in his experience with this matter as he says he deals with steroids users quite a lot is that he thinks that i still have androgens in my body being the decca (but unfortunately tee is no tests that can be done to find this out) and in his experience the decca stays in the system for a very long time and this is what is supressing my natural test and i need to give it some more time to leave my body. This is what he sad 4 months ago i am going to see him again in 2 weeks time


Yes, he is correct, and the high levels of LH and FSH suggest that it isnt deca that is supressing your natty test levels, it is your nuts not responding to LH as they are not sensitive but almost sleeping.

Wake them up with HCG.



big vin said:


> can any of you you guys answer me this question, im still trainining at the moment and have never stopped but what are your views on me training with my very low test will i still be able to build muscle


You will gain more bellyfat and probably wont gain muscle.

But, your SHBG is within range so you probably have a higher percentage of free test in comparison to serum testosterone, this might be your saving grace here.



BillC said:


> IF the deca was still in his system causing the shutdown, wouldn't the fsh and lh be shot to sh!t. Common sense tells me that his balls are knackered from being supressed for so long. His body is trying to fire them up with the high lh/fsh.


Very nice post Bill, you are totally bang on the money with this one.

10 years of your testicles sleeping will take some time to come online.

By the high levels of LH and FSH this tells me that the metabolites from deca are not an issue, it is as you suggested Bill, his nuts are knackered.

Fantastic observation mate.......

You beat me to it. :beer:

Also is Dr. Scally's protocol in a study he did and the stuff he used.

So, dont say we didnt help ya.

Ditch the endo till you try the recovery first, no sense in spending good money for nothing.

And, you may need more than 20,000iu of HCG, might want to look into some HMG as well to go along, there is synergy with that.

There are a couple of other things that I can add to that once you reply to this thread.

hypogonadism.pdf

ScallyVergelAstractHPGA.pdf


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## Dave 0511 (Feb 13, 2009)

mars1960 said:


> Yeah and most of us have tried our very best to give it to him, but as you can see many of us are at the end of our tether and if you read everything vin has posted you can surely see why, he won't listen, all he keeps banging on about is his professional endo and he still is, it's not through want of trying so why don't you give us who have tried to help a break.
> 
> If you have problem with some members name them.


i know you have mate but the problem as usual on this site is people look at posts by a well known and knowledgable member (I.E. you) and then just copy the gist of that as though it is their own opinion or thoughts. you end up with pages full of the same post.

i dont think its so much that he isnt listening he is obviously just

a) a bit slow

B) very very worried about his inner workings

c) having been told things by 'big lads in the gym', he is wary of advice, which raises the question why ask, but that's up to him i suppose.

no one is forced to answer and i understand that having given your time to post it is frustrating when you don't seem to be getting through

having re-read the whole thread i think this guy is desperate for a solution to be spelled out to him i.e. Day 1 take pill A at 0700, Day 2 take shot B at 1200 etc etc. yeah he could pay for this advice, but he has actually offered that. if i had the knowledge of pct like some people do maybe i could answer him better, im just making observations on the way the thread has run


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## cellmore (Aug 26, 2008)

im struggling here trying to fatham how you let it get bad like that, ive been on gear on and off for years but trust me i would not let the old plumbing get that bad not even shooting. good lessan to every one, bit extreem to me though:


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

I have now been to see my endocroligist again and showed him the 45 day protocol and the explanation of it. He has read it thoroughly and says it is very logical and medically correct but he then goes to say that the protocol is designed to get the pituaity working to send the signals to to the testes to make the testosterone but he says in my case my lh and fsh are high which means i do ot have problems with the pituaity and the protocol would probably not work , he says if i had low fsh and lh levels then it would work.he says i have high fsh and lh meaning the signals are being sent to the testes telling them to produce the testosterone but they are not doing and fears because they have been shutdown for so long they could bek nackered. After reading the article explaining the pct my endo has taken a blood sample to rule out high estrogen as this could be supressing the testosterone i will get these results back in 2 days time and if i have high estrogen he is going to give me some anti estrogen drugs. what im going to do now is wait till friday then and if my estrogen high take the anti estrogens and see what happens then if the levels are normall im going to give the 45 day protocol a go if that fails which the endo says prob will for reasons my endo said i will have to resort to the test replacement therapy which he has advised consisting of sustanon 250 injections that my gp will be giving me monitored regulary for high red blood cell count and prostrate . He says my my shgb is within range but test is low and has used a formula to get the total free androgen index which is about 5% should be arond 50%.So worst comes to the worst i will need teat replacement which he says will get your test back to normal and libido will be back to normal and also start the ejaculate again. So thats where i am at now i appreciate any views .


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

so what my endo said was that the 45 day protocol would probably not work as i have high fsh and lh which means that there is no problem with the pituaity and signals are being sent to the testes and that the balls are probably knackered due to being supressed for so long . He says the protocol is designed to work if i did not have high fsh and lh , im just trying to explain best i can what he said but after i get my estrogen resuls back on friday in giving the 45 day protocol a go anyway as i have nothing to lose


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## Huntingground (Jan 10, 2010)

mars and/or hackskii will probably be able to advise further.

Good luck Vin.


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## bassmonster (Aug 29, 2009)

Huntingground said:


> mars and/or hackskii will probably be able to advise further.
> 
> Good luck Vin.


I think they have given their best advice..up to Vin now whether or not he'll spend more money on the endo or just start the 45 day protocal immediately.


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

think mars and hacksii have given up on me ...shame i appreciated their advice


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## bassmonster (Aug 29, 2009)

big vin said:


> think mars and hacksii have given up on me ...shame i appreciated their advice


That's probably because you are not taking of board what the are advising. Instead you are going with what your Endo is saying..


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## Dave 0511 (Feb 13, 2009)

bassmonster said:


> I think they have given their best advice..up to Vin now whether or not he'll spend more money on the endo or just start the 45 day protocal immediately.


the endo is saying he agress with the logic behind the 'protocol', but that in this case in his medical opinion it will not work for the reasons stated. although hackskii and mars etc etc are very knowledgable and helpful to many people, do you really think vin should dismiss the advice of an open minded medical practitioner and just go straight on the protocol?


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## bassmonster (Aug 29, 2009)

Dave 0511 said:


> the endo is saying he agress with the logic behind the 'protocol', but that in this case in his medical opinion it will not work for the reasons stated. although hackskii and mars etc etc are very knowledgable and helpful to many people, do you really think vin should dismiss the advice of an open minded medical practitioner and just go straight on the protocol?


I personallly would go with the protocol, yes...the people who have advised as had practical experience in this field and not read off text books...


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## Dave 0511 (Feb 13, 2009)

yes but what i am saying is that the doctor isnt ruling out the protocol, he is just saying he wants to check levels first.


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## deano (Feb 22, 2009)

Vin, I understand you are worried but you need to read Hacks last few posts especially parts such as:

*clomid and nolva will be of no value, well little, HCG would be your best bet here.*

*Yes, he is correct, and the high levels of LH and FSH suggest that it isnt deca that is supressing your natty test levels, it is your nuts not responding to LH as they are not sensitive but almost sleeping. Wake them up with HCG.*

He is saying the same things as your endo.

I dont really see what you have to lose with giving HCG a shot?


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## Old but not out (Sep 8, 2009)

big vin said:


> so what my endo said was that the 45 day protocol would probably not work as i have high fsh and lh which means that there is no problem with the pituaity and signals are being sent to the testes and that the balls are probably knackered due to being supressed for so long . He says the protocol is designed to work if i did not have high fsh and lh , im just trying to explain best i can what he said but after i get my estrogen resuls back on friday in giving the 45 day protocol a go anyway as i have nothing to lose


No the hCG part of the protocol is designed to get your testes working again. Ask him to monitor your testosterone whilst utilizing high dose hCG.


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## BillC (Jun 11, 2009)

big vin said:


> well i have listened to people on here and have listened to the advice of 3 different endos who specialise in male hormones. *The endos are saying in my specific case and taking into account my high lh and fsh that the protocol will probably not work for reasons already explained so come friday when i get my blood test back to see whether i have high estrogen if i have the endo iss going to but me on anti estrogens* if they are normall im going to do the 45 day protocol if that fails iam going to go on supervised test replacent therapy


So because they think it might not work, because they didn't come up with it most likely, they aren't even going to try it and put you on trt for life? I'd agree to follow the endo's on the estrogen front but then give the protocol a blast and tell them you are too, as they won't help.


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

i totally agree with you billC because when he read the pct explanation that i printed off here and the protocol he raised his eyebrows and said "hmm yeah lets check your estrogen levels because they could be supressing your testosterone" he took blood from me there and then so will have the estrogen level results back on friday


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

.


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## Dyingformass (Jun 10, 2009)

When you got your blood work done did they mention what your vitaminA levels are like?

VitaminA is very important in men as a recent study revels that it plays a significant role in the regulation of testosterone levels in men.

I personally have low vitA levels and have been told to use at least 4000ius a day and after about 1 week i noticed both my mood and sex drive increase so it might be not harm to add this in to your diet.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

big vin said:


> After reading the article explaining the pct my endo has taken a blood sample to rule out high estrogen as this could be supressing the testosterone


Not likely even though estrogen is approx 200 times more suppressive than testosterone it would have a direct effect on LH.

That isn't the case, your nuts are not firing, and this is where HCG comes in.

With that said, you need to take the other stuff with it so your nuts don't desensitize with the use of HCG. Nolva alone will do that.



big vin said:


> what im going to do now is wait till friday then and if my estrogen high take the anti estrogens and see what happens


Mate, it won't be high, if it was your SHBG would not be within range, and not only that, you are not making enough testosterone for there to be estrogen above range.

Now the ratio might be off some, but in the end that won't stop the nuts from firing.

LH is high due to the fact your nuts are not working and the pituitary is working overtime trying to fire them up.



big vin said:


> my endo said was that the 45 day protocol would probably not work as i have high fsh and lh which means that there is no problem with the pituaity and signals are being sent to the testes and that the balls are probably knackered due to being supressed for so long .


You have absolutely nothing to worry about, if you cant fire the nuts up, you go on TRT for life.

I have heard of this happening but my doc said that over a thousand guys he has treated only a hand full he could not bring back, and even that he said he had to modify things.



big vin said:


> think mars and hacksii have given up on me ...shame i appreciated their advice


Hardly, I never ever give up, all you need to do is follow the plan, I will give you one that has never failed.

Now I am not saying it could fail, but that is hardly not even likely.

This could be a case of continued suppression long term damaging the testicles from non use. Now that is possible even though I have never heard of it.

Your 6 weeks off during your long 10 year cycles is nothing to help them, your gear hardly cleared and the pituitary didn't give the signals to the testicles to work so they never had any stimulation at all for 10 years.

This will be interesting.



Dave 0511 said:


> the endo is saying he agress with the logic behind the 'protocol', but that in this case in his medical opinion it will not work for the reasons stated. although hackskii and mars etc etc are very knowledgable and helpful to many people, do you really think vin should dismiss the advice of an open minded medical practitioner and just go straight on the protocol?


But although he is right in the respect that the LH and FSH are already online, once he uses the HCG they will go offline.

Not only that but if anyone uses large enough doses of HCG, you run the risk of damaging the Leydig cell permanently, not to mention the massive estrogen caused from the HCG with the potential for gyno, the same drugs that are used to fire up the pituitary are the very ones that protect the Leydig cells.

Although this protocol is for one that is entirely shut down, it won't change due to the protection of the clomid and nolva protecting from excess estrogen and HCG's effects on shutdown of the pituitary and hypothalamus.

This is his only choice to either recover or he is on TRT for life, he has nothing to lose trying to recover, and if he really wants to impress the endo, next test will show proof or failure, outcome ultimately will be the same TRT for life.



Dave 0511 said:


> yes but what i am saying is that the doctor isnt ruling out the protocol, he is just saying he wants to check levels first.


The problem with the tests are easy, the longer he goes around with low testosterone levels, he will lose muscle mass, increase belly fat, have more compromised lipid profiles, compromised red blood cell count, suffer depression, anxiety and a host of other bad things, not to mention more aromatase activity due to more belly fat which then elevates estrogen.

But your problem is not estrogen and tomorrow, this will be verified with blood tests.



Dyingformass said:


> When you got your blood work done did they mention what your vitaminA levels are like?
> 
> VitaminA is very important in men as a recent study revels that it plays a significant role in the regulation of testosterone levels in men.
> 
> I personally have low vitA levels and have been told to use at least 4000ius a day and after about 1 week i noticed both my mood and sex drive increase so it might be not harm to add this in to your diet.


Mate that is Vitamin E not A, Vitamin A decencies are not common and A, not to mention too much A is toxic anyway.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Now some other thoughts that I will throw out there to help you and consider this all your other options put together.

Due to the nuts not working, HCG is mandatory and even though your endocrinologist isn't sure what to do, he will diagnose HCG as this is what they use for puberty boys to drop the nuts. But your endo doctor wont know how to protect the Leydig cells as the doses we need to use can cause damage, but nolva will offer protection.

Vitamin E is necessary here as it will help the Leydig cells be more sensitive.

1000iu ED of E will be helpful here.

Vitamin D would be another one you should be considering, a TRT doctor named Dr. Eugene Shippen noticed that guys that were deficient in vitamin D didn't respond as well as those that were not deficient in D.

Not only that but it is an immune system necessity for that to work efficiently.

You will need some D in this mix just to cover that base.

Zinc is necessary for testosterone production and actually is a mild aromatase inhibitor, so get some ZMA and take that at night.

HGH although I cant prove it, some studies suggest it is helpful for testicular function and going by my peptide use of CJC-1295 and GHRP-2 I notice more night time erections and morning wood.

So, any combinations of HGH or the GH releasing peptides would not hurt and help you not be as catabolic.

Low dose DHEA would not be a bad idea, something like 20mg max a day, after all DHEA is a precurser to all sex hormones.

Too much though elivates estrogen, DHEA will help give you the building blocks for testosterone anyway.

Take no aspirin while on HCG.

If you can help it take the HCG at early evening, it spikes around 17 hours or so and lasts for about 3 days but you are going to shoot ED.

I noticed it worked best at like 5:00 in the evening but that kept me awake so although I noticed it worked best, I could not sleep so I shot morning time.


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

Thanks hacksii for your imput mate , i will add the vitamins you mentioned as they cant do any harm and may help.

It is not tommorrow that i get my estrogen level test back it friday so i will post back and let you know. I will order the the hcg clomid and nolvadex and do the 45 day protocol as you advise and see how i go on from there i really hope it is successfull as it will be a giant weight off my mind .

Thank you for your post hackskii and also everyone else who has posted i will continually keep you updated because i will be having regular blood tests to see how things are going . Much appreciated guys.


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

when i had a full blood count test it showed everything was in range prostrate liver cholestorol vitamins etc.


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## Damo j (Mar 26, 2008)

just do the pct mate and lets us all know what happens. Years of putting gear in didnt bother you so just take the pct meds and hopefully you will be sorted. I wish you the best of look mate

Damo


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## Lois_Lane (Jul 21, 2009)

The routine Scott has laid out works great i am doing it now for my second time.

9 days into it feeling very good nuts have come back a great deal sex drive is high i feel good. Obviously the true test is after the pct and a couple of months down the line when blood work is done but i think this is the business as far as pct's go.

Good luck!


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

big vin said:


> i get my estrogen level test back it friday


Your estrogen will be within range and more than likely on the lower end of normal.

LH levels and SHBG would suggest it is not in fact estrogen but your nuts have had a very long vacation.

Now I am going to watch this with great interest as there is some chance the nuts have been so not active that they might not recover, but I personally have not seen this, but it is possible and I will tell you how I think it may be so.

As men age, LH tends to rise as testosterone levels fall, this has to do with Leydig cell's response to LH.

As we age, the Leydig cells tend to be less responsive to LH.

LH is just trying to bring up Testosterone levels but it cant due to the Leydig cells being less sensitive (nobody knows why but hell its an age thing).

Young men have low/ish LH yet high testosterone, and can be more than double that of guys my age.

The deal with HCG is in the beginning the bigger doses tend to force the nuts to get back to work.

So the bolus doses in the beginning prepare the nuts to end up being more sensitive to HCG.

Once they start getting more sensitive even smaller amounts of HCG will make a response to produce testosterone.

Probably what is happening here is even in light of your elevated LH levels, it still isn't enough to get the fire started so it can burn. The protocol by the doctor force the nuts to go to work.

Idea here really is to use the HCG at 2500iu EOD and after about 10 to 14 days get a testosterone test.

If your numbers do not move, then my friend you are now considered primary hypogonadotropic hypogonadism and will end up being on TRT for life.

But, honestly I have never seen this in steroid users, and even older guys on TRT do in fact respond to HCG, so I do feel you have a great chance in recovery.

Personally I would follow the protocol to the letter, using the supplements and then after 2 weeks get a blood test and let the endo doc check it out.

After all, it would be fair to him to allow your doc to see if you recover, if you do, he will be a better doctor in the long run and have miles of distance between him and the next doc.

I do feel he does not get the big picture as looking for elevated estrogen with LH and FSH as high as they are and SHBG all within normal ranges is grasping at straws.

You may not actually recover first time and your levels might be just under lower end of normal, but have no fear, there are other things that can be added to get your numbers back where they are supposed to be and even considering that, HMG might not be a bad addition to this protocol.

If you can get your hands on this stuff then let me know I will help you run this one as well.

I think personally you will recover, if you dont first time around you can run a smaller PCT and be back within range.

I had to run two PCT's before but I honestly think that was due to bad HCG as I tested it on a pregnancy stick and it didnt show positive.


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## kgb (Sep 13, 2009)

This is incredibly interesting.

Vin, I wish you the best luck over the coming months. I'm sure UK-M will be here in its various forms to help.


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

by the way hackii im 43 mate .

I am seeing my doc tommorrow gonna ask him if he can presribe me with the meds for the protocol if not i can get the clomid and nolva from guy from my gym but he says he has no hcg

Much appreciated guys.


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## Aron (Mar 29, 2010)

:ban: :lol:


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

what do you mean ban? im new to this site only ever first posted last week . Are they rules about asking where to get meds on here? if they are im sorry .


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## Aron (Mar 29, 2010)

I were joking mate.


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

ok, but it was a serious question and are the meds for the protocol prescription only ?


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## Guest (Apr 29, 2010)

Yes there are rules about asking for sources, outlined in the rules section of the board.


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## Lois_Lane (Jul 21, 2009)

At 43 you are never going to have great test levels again especially with your AAS use.

Go to your endo, end of story!


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

lois-lane i dont think you have read all the posts i have seen 3 different endos and i saw one 2 days ago my testosterone is barely existent 1.7 nmol/l (10.0-37.0) and has been like this for nearly a year


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Mate, you cant ask for sources, but you will need this:

20,000iu HCG

60 tabs of 50mg clomid

45 tabs of 20mg nolvadex

HCG is all over the place, that HCG diet makes buying it easy.

Sorry, I cant give you a source, it is very common though, especially in the HCG diet places.........


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

ok hacksii , thanks again . will keep you regulary informed with my progress


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## TH0R (Aug 15, 2007)

big vin said:


> ok hacksii , thanks again . will keep you regulary informed with my progress


I think we'd all like to know how you get on Vin, good luck bud:thumbup1:


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

Yes i will keep you all informed on here .


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## ollie321 (Mar 29, 2010)

Yeah good luck man rooting for ya


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## Jecko (Feb 8, 2010)

This thread made me want to get a hammer to my computer.

After all this, just cut them off.


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

Just got my blood test results back for ny oestradiol (estrogen) it says 132 pmol/l (22-162) so it seems in range . I also had my testosterone done again 2.3 nmol/l (10-37) fsh 29 (1.0 -11) lh 12 (1.0-8.0)

Just an observation my testosterone has been between 1.5 and 1.7 for nearly a year and was 1.5 only 2 weeks ago it seems to have inceases on todays blood test result ,only slightly but it has increased to 2.3 any views ?


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## Mars (Aug 25, 2007)

big vin said:


> Just got my blood test results back for ny oestradiol (estrogen) it says 132 pmol/l (22-162) so it seems in range . I also had my testosterone done again 2.3 nmol/l (10-37) fsh 29 (1.0 -11) lh 12 (1.0-8.0)
> 
> Just an observation my testosterone has been between 1.5 and 1.7 for nearly a year and was 1.5 only 2 weeks ago it seems to have inceases only slightly but it has increased to 2.3 any views ?


Test levels are not constant, they change through the day with peaks in the AM and PM, so it could be just the time of day that the test was taken.


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

Thanks for your imput , thats true yes but i have had test taken every month for the last 10 months at the same time mid morning all results have shown between 1.4 and 1.7 never higher or lower todays was 2.3 first time it has shown increse in 10 months only slight but is still an increase but dont know whether that is significant.

My endo wanted to know the estrogen level result , i have just spoken to his secretary but she says he is on holiday for a week now .


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

Just a quick question i now know you are not allowed where to get meds from but i have got my clomid and nolvadex but cant get hcg so will have to buy it online what are the chances that it will be fake and is there a way of testing it to see if its fake . I really dont want to be taking anything fake .

Much appreciated .


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## Mars (Aug 25, 2007)

big vin said:


> Just a quick question i now know you are not allowed where to get meds from but i have got my clomid and nolvadex but cant get hcg so will have to buy it online what are the chances that it will be fake and is there a way of testing it to see if its fake . I really dont want to be taking anything fake .
> 
> Much appreciated .


Not very often faked as it's dead cheap.

A pregnancy test kit dipped in a 5000iu solution should give a positive result.


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

ok thanks .


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

lh 12 (1.0-8.0)

Likely what is happening here is the nuts are actually trying to work due to the fact that LH is far above normal ranges.

Your pituitary is trying to force the nuts to go to work, the very fact that they are responding tells me that HCG would have a world of a diffrence on effect as the leydig cells are becomming more sensitive every day.

You do that protocol and I guarantee you will recovery within 45 days.

If it does not work, I will buy you dinner...........


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## ollie321 (Mar 29, 2010)

hackskii said:


> lh 12 (1.0-8.0)
> 
> Likely what is happening here is the nuts are actually trying to work due to the fact that LH is far above normal ranges.
> 
> ...


love it lmfao :lol:


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

I really hope you are right mate and prove the endos wrong.

What are your views on my oestradiol (estrogen) it says 132 pmol/l (22-162) is that normal.


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## Mars (Aug 25, 2007)

Well your post says it's within normal range albeit at the higher end.


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## BillC (Jun 11, 2009)

Is it just me that cannot understand why doctors don't ever seem to look at the overall picture? Figures in range so they just ignore? Never look that the estrogen is on the highish side, that , coupled with low test could be having a massive impact on his nuts ability to recover.


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## Old but not out (Sep 8, 2009)

big vin said:


> I really hope you are right mate and prove the endos wrong.
> 
> What are your views on my oestradiol (estrogen) it says 132 pmol/l (22-162) is that normal.


That level of estrogen will likely impact negatively on sexual function - especially will low testosterone levels.


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

so are you saying my estrogen level is high ? im confused is the range for a male?

oestradiol (estrogen) it says 132 pmol/l (22-162)

My endo suggested thst i have my estrogen levels checked he said if its high he would put me on some anti estrogens but unfortunately my endo is on holiday for a week so will see what my gp says but my gp is nt a specialist in this field.

Can someone tell me what normal levels are in an adult male .

Much appreciated.


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## stonecoldzero (Aug 30, 2009)

big vin said:


> so are you saying my estrogen level is high ? im confused is the range for a male?
> 
> oestradiol (estrogen) it says 132 pmol/l (22-162)
> 
> ...


"Normal" E levels, according to the range of your bloodwork, is 22-162 therefore 132 is "within range" ie "normal".

However, it is towards the high end of the scale. Coupled with low T, it seems likely that you have an E dominant environment. This, in and of itself, can seriously suppress the HPTA.

So, yes, an anti E would likely help and aid a quite specific area of your recovery ie that of an "unhealthy" T:E ratio, particularly in conjuction with the administration of HCG for all the reasons mentioned thus far (and a few more too!).

You may even find a substantial degree of recovery with the use of these compounds alone which, when combined with Hackskii's PCT protocol, makes it extremely unlikely that he will need to buy you that dinner. 

And who'd be paying the air fare for that little trip anyway?


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

BillC said:


> Is it just me that cannot understand why doctors don't ever seem to look at the overall picture? Figures in range so they just ignore? Never look that the estrogen is on the highish side, that , coupled with low test could be having a massive impact on his nuts ability to recover.


Not so much on the nuts ability to recover although it may impact the nuts ability to be more or less sensitive to LH.

It isnt high enough to shut off the switch of LH so it isnt likely to play a roll in recovery.



Old but not out said:


> That level of estrogen will likely impact negatively on sexual function - especially will low testosterone levels.


Now this for sure is likely some of the problem with libido.

I have a friend that has a sweet spot for his estrogen and it is not in the upper end, it is mid-lower end where it effects his libido in a positive way.



big vin said:


> so are you saying my estrogen level is high ? im confused is the range for a male?
> 
> oestradiol (estrogen) it says 132 pmol/l (22-162)
> 
> ...


You fall within normal range mate, but on the upper end with low testosterone, this puts the ratio of E to T dominant, not the best environment for libido and mood.



stonecoldzero said:


> "Normal" E levels, according to the range of your bloodwork, is 22-162 therefore 132 is "within range" ie "normal".
> 
> However, it is towards the high end of the scale. Coupled with low T, it seems likely that you have an E dominant environment. This, in and of itself, can seriously suppress the HPTA.
> 
> ...


I don't think it would supress the HPTA but it may have some impact on SHBG and free T might be compromised some.

But the fact that his LH and FSH are high just means that estrogen is not playing a factor in the negative loop of the pituitary.

Now, if there is some association somewhere which suggests estrogen is doing something to the nuts than that could be but not really sure.

Something like .5mg adex twice a week would probably put him around where he would be for a better ratio of T to E.

Why I would be paying for that airfare....................... :beer:

That way I could see all my buddies.

*That is how confident I am that he will be fine.*


----------



## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

Thanks so much guys , i really appreciate you taking the time to answer my questions, i will be starting the protocol very soon and will keep you regulary updated with my progress.

Much appreciated .


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## Fbjoey (Apr 11, 2010)

This post is freaking awesome. It just pure entertainment. I just read it all and now im left with a cliff hanger like something out of EastEnders. I really hope theres a happy ending.

When are you going start the protocol?


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

Hi again im just abouts to get my meds for the protocol the protocol is ...

He suggests 8 shots of HCG @ 2500iu EOD.

With this you take 20 mg of nolvadex for 45 days.

Clomid is also taken but twice a day @ 50mg each dose 12 hours apart.

so i will need to get hcg 2500iu multiplied by 8 = 20,000 iu

45 20mg nolvadex tablets

and clomid twice a day for 45 days so thats 90 50mg clomid tablets .

is this correct as im going to order this stuff now

much appreciated


----------



## SD (Sep 3, 2004)

SOrry I didnt get back to you after my original post Big Vin, forgot about it I am afraid as I usually hang out in the nutrition section.

Looks like Hacks has pointed the way to a possible cure, just hope the damage to your testes isnt permanent, I fear it will be and post pct you will be on TRT.

I have similar problems, am awaiting an appointment with an endo now, my LH,FSH were normal, SHBG were intially high, with low test but is now within range and test is at the bottom level of normal.

Free test is whats out now, only 23 instead of 40+ and my ejaculate volume has suddenly decreased within the last month??

I always did a PCT, in fact last cycle I did a very good PCT but still over a year later I have problems.

Hope you get a solution matey, keep us all posted on your outcome, your experiences and mine could be very helpful to others here.

SD

SD


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

ok my friend i will keep you all informed.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

big vin said:


> Hi again im just abouts to get my meds for the protocol the protocol is ...
> 
> He suggests 8 shots of HCG @ 2500iu EOD.
> 
> ...


Perfect big guy, you will recover, and if you recover you owe me dinner, if you dont I owe you dinner. :beer:

You dont owe me dinner, but I will owe you dinner if you dont fail, and what ever dinner you want, lobster or anything.

Just relax big guy, you are on your way.

Dont forget the Vitmain D and E and ZMA too.

Some DHEA low dose would be a good idea too.


----------



## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

thank you once again hackskii I will also take vitamin D and E but can you tell me how much i should take and also what is ZMA and how much of this and DHEA should i take .

Can you tell me in simple terms the dosages as i am not familiar to the abbrevations you put down .

I have now got the nolvadex and clomid from a reliable source from my gym but he has no HCG so unfortunately i will have to get it online really hope i get genuine stuff.

I know you are not allowed to say the source on here but could you tell me the make of it which could assist me in getting the genuine stuff.

I really am hopefull now about this protocol thanks once again .

Much appreciated .


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## Guest (May 4, 2010)

Good luck Vin - Hacks is the man and I am very curious to know how you get on. I feel thgis issue is one which may affect manby out there that may be afraid to post - I think it would be a good idea to sticky it to show the potential downfalls of not carrying out a proper PCT and also how to recover.


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

thank you mate that mght be a good idea but whos it up to to make it a a sticky.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

big vin said:


> thank you mate that mght be a good idea but whos it up to to make it a a sticky.


Erm.....Me:lol:

*Vitamin E* 1000iu every day (or more), and for those taking fish oils you should be supplementing E anyway.

*Vitamin D* 2000iu every day would be fine, you can go higher on this and the vitamin E if you like.

*ZMA* (zinc monomethionine aspartate, magnesium aspartate) use what is recommended on the bottle, diffrent formulations are out there.

As long as the zinc is between like 15 and 50mg no big deal, just follow the label, the stuff in ZMA has better bioavilibility than regular zinc.

Take at night before bed and no calcium supplements at all not even milk.

So that is no multivitamin as calicum will ruin the zinc (bind to it rendering it pretty much worthless).


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

thanks hacskii what about the DHEA is that not a steroid that woulsd artificially increase the test anway and mask the results i want to recover with no steroids correct me if im wrong .


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## ollie321 (Mar 29, 2010)

Good luck Vin, hope you recover well mate:thumb:


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

One more thing you say to get 20,000iu of HCG in what form do i need to get this as i have never used HCG ever, do i need to get it in certain size ampules etc, and how do i take it is it taken intramuscular where do i inject and what size needles do i use as i have no idea.

Much appreciated .


----------



## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

big vin said:


> thanks hacskii what about the DHEA is that not a steroid that woulsd artificially increase the test anway and mask the results i want to recover with no steroids correct me if im wrong .


No more than 20mg every day (ED), it is more to help adrenal issues and is a precurser to other sex steroids, some get more libido from it.



big vin said:


> One more thing you say to get 20,000iu of HCG in what form do i need to get this as i have never used HCG ever, do i need to get it in certain size ampules etc, and how do i take it is it taken intramuscular where do i inject and what size needles do i use as i have no idea.
> 
> Much appreciated .


They are in amps if you buy pregnyl, they are in multiuse vials if you use the chineese stuff or novarel.

Best to use bacteriostatic water but hell, if you buy the pregnyl and it comes in 5000iu Every Other Day (EOD) shots wont be an issue.

That would be subcutanious shots.


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

but the protocol says take 2500iu every other day . Are you now saying take 5000iu every other day im getting confused sorry


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Oh hell, sorry, pregnyl comes in 5000iu amps, using their saline water will be ok for EOD shots meaning 2500iu EOD.

Sorry, didnt mean to confuse, just saying 5000iu shots wont kick off using their solution EOD, thats all.

2500iu EOD is the plan man........sorry for the confustion.

Just split the 5000 amps, you will need to load the syrenge each with 2500 and put one in the fridge.

Once you mix, you must refrigerate the rest you dont shoot.


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

ok mate thanks so i split the 5000iu into two and put 2500iu in each syringe , then i can inject one straight away then put the other in the fridge then inject that one the other day is this correct?


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

big vin said:


> ok mate thanks so i split the 5000iu into two and put 2500iu in each syringe , then i can inject one straight away then put the other in the fridge then inject that one the other day is this correct?


Yes Sir, that is the only EOD thing you will do with this protocol.

If you got any GH or peptide stuff id toss that in there too.


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

so in effect i will be taking hcg only for 8 days ,and sorry for asking again so i am going to inject subcontaneous near my belly button what size needle should i use ?


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

28 guage, for sub-Q

Hey big guy, 8 shots EOD is 16 days.................... :lol:


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

oh yeah ! SORRY my mistake its getting late ... yeah 16 days thanks again mate really appreciate you taking time for me


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

i have now got my meds for the protocol nolvadex and clomid from my guy from the gym but he has told me he cant get HCG .

Going to have to get it online but i dont want to get scammed or buy fake. Is it possible for someone to reccomend a brand that i should be getting to avoid getting any fake if thats possible.

Much appreciated.


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## BillC (Jun 11, 2009)

If you're squeemish around your belly button, you can use thigh or top of the back of arm. Slin pins from your needle exchange work fine.


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## Lois_Lane (Jul 21, 2009)

hackskii said:


> Hey big guy, 8 shots EOD is 16 days.................... :lol:


Actually its 15 days

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15

The days underlined are hcg days.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Lois_Lane said:


> Actually its 15 days
> 
> 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15
> 
> The days underlined are hcg days.


Now that is funny. :lol:

Math isnt my best subject....lol

Yah, like I said that would be 15 days mate:whistling: :innocent: :lol:


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

hi i have just been offered some HCG from a guy from another gym it is made by LEPORI and its 2500iu wonder if any of you know wheteher this would be the real stuff he can also get me the PREGNYL HCG .

what do you think guys ?

Much appreciated.


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## Huntingground (Jan 10, 2010)

Most use Pregnyl. I certainly do.


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

Thanks for your imput huntingground anyone else any views?

Much appreciated


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## Lois_Lane (Jul 21, 2009)

I agree with huntingground.


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

Thanks lois-lane mate


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## fat-2-thi-2-mus (Mar 8, 2010)

just got Pregnyl in mate...was advised by a few its the way to go!!


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

big vin said:


> hi i have just been offered some HCG from a guy from another gym it is made by LEPORI and its 2500iu wonder if any of you know wheteher this would be the real stuff he can also get me the PREGNYL HCG .
> 
> what do you think guys ?
> 
> Much appreciated.


That one is fine, if you are worried it isnt any good you can always use a early pregnancy test, if it shows positive then it is the real deal.

Basicly HCG is made from pregnant women and they manufacture about a million IU's a day.

Pregnyl is not my fav brand, I rate the chineese stuff highly and also the Novarel, then pregnyl, there is another APP brand in the states that is good.

This will work well as you only will mix and shoot the whole thing.


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## Huntingground (Jan 10, 2010)

big vin, did you start the PCT as suggested?


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

huntingground mate i am just waiting to get my hcg which i should have in the morning im getting it from a reliable source . so will be starting the protocol all being well tommorrow monday .

I will keep you all regulary informed .

Much appreciated .


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## lostwars (Nov 7, 2008)

best of luck on the road to recovery, can only imagine how distressed id be if in a similar position, ive used the protocol you have been advised and it rocks, resuklts are fast with it

can i ask you a few Qs just to fill me in on your situation

are you feeling hormonal, crying for no reason etc?

do you find it hard to get aroused or is it only a problem when it comes to spilling the beans?

do you want to ever start a family in the future?

and, did you not suffer from testicular atrophy at any stage?

if i were you id try get some HMG its presented much the same way as HCG that you are awaiting on at present, it produces sperm and be a super inclusion if you can find it

also proviron may help you with libido issues while you run a pct, id maybe get a second opinion on would be be a good inclusion for someone whos as shut down as you

although its affectively an androgen its mild but could make recovery that little bit harder, i usually do use it but but i do try to finish my pct before hand just to be careful

also clenbuteral has been shown to have anti-catabolic properties which could help but id use a minimum to low dose if you do consider it

anyhow really wish you the best


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

hello guys im sorry that i have not been on for a while , my supplier has let me down with the hcg for the protocol so im just waiting on someone else who says he can get it me so will have it in next few days .

I will then start the 45 day protocol and keep you all informed on my progress

Much appreciated


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

hello guys i have now started the 45 days protocol

i have some hcg from a company called serotropin wonder if anyone is familiar with this i have pictures of this hcg that i can post here im just not sure how to do it

i have injected sub near belly button using 23 gauge 1" needle i felt a sting that has lasted about an hour is this normal

Much appreciated guys


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## BillC (Jun 11, 2009)

FFs ouch, sub Q with a 23g, no wonder it stings. You only need some slin pins. Your local chemist/needle exchange will do you them for free.

If you find belly button too painful, or sickening, you can sub Q top of thighs.


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

has anyone heard of serotropin hcg its in 5000iu vials and has a white cap

i have pictures but not sure how to put them on here

Much appreciated


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

I cant believe you sub-Q with a 23 guage......You are a stud.


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## jassdhali (Jul 2, 2008)

I had to rep big vin for that..ouch


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

i have huge bruise now

on a more serious note, i have just dipped a pregnancy test into my hcg . it has come up negative .does this mean its not real hcg i have already took my first injection this morning before testing it.


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## BillC (Jun 11, 2009)

Serotropin,?/ quick google search comes up as HGH!??!? Was it expensive? cannot mention prices but hcg is fairly cheap for 3 x 5000iu's whereas hgh comes in in 3 figure prices.

My hcg is organon pregryl


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

i think its irrellevant how much it was as my supplier could be asking more money for it it was it was not 3 figures and i got 4 vials of 3500iu it says hcg on the box it was less than £100 but more than £50

what i really want to know is would a pregnancy test be a reliable answer to whether its fake or not i really need to know this

it showing negative on a pregnancy test


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

the box says SEROTROPIN brands HCG for injection contains 50,000 IU (10 vials of 5,000 IU each) copywright 2006-2009 serotropin limited

website www.serotropin.com

mADE IN CHINA DEVELOPED BY CANADIAN SCIENTISTS


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## BillC (Jun 11, 2009)

I don't really know about the pregnancy test for hcg, only what I've read and it should show positive. People tend to use pregnancy tests on growth as people try to pass hcg off as growth and a positive means the growth is fake.


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

i have now been to get some different hcg from a different supplier i have obtained some HCG Lepori 2500iu

so i thought i would run a pregnancy test through some of this the result is showing negative for this as well !

surely they both arent fake or does it not neceserally show up positive on a pregnancy test

does anybody know the answer?

Much appreciated


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

?


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## Old but not out (Sep 8, 2009)

big vin said:


> i have now been to get some different hcg from a different supplier i have obtained some HCG Lepori 2500iu
> 
> so i thought i would run a pregnancy test through some of this the result is showing negative for this as well !
> 
> ...


It may not show up on a pregnancy test - it will be outside the range in terms of strength and will therefore not produce the colour change.

Without being personal - how are your testicles - size wise and how do they hang. If hCG is really they will be hanging really low after a couple of jabs

hCG is rarely faked, I am sure it will be fine. Post a pic up


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

thanks for your reply how do i post a pic up


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

this the hcg i got


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

has anyone heard of or tried this hcg serotropin


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## Anthony83 (Jun 9, 2009)

ive used them before mate,there ok,the company also produces igf and hgh.they should do the trick,as said earlier hcg is fairly cheap to produce and rearly faked.


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

thanks mate


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

If you use a pregnancy test and it shows negative then you either are faked or are using alot of bac water.

I have only had one time where it was negative and I was not responding, once I got the real deal HCG it showed positive.

TRy another vial, and use enough to we the medium.


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## Slindog (Oct 6, 2009)

dunno why hcg would be faked. not many people use it and it is relatively cheap


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## SD (Sep 3, 2004)

Maybe the pregnancy test is not working too?

HCG stings like a little bee when injected, yours did so that a good sign at least.

Its rarely faked buddy and the results are fast showing with testicualr size, so keep an eye on your balls, you should notice something within three days.

SD


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## jassdhali (Jul 2, 2008)

big vin said:


> i think its irrellevant how much it was as my supplier could be asking more money for it it was it was not 3 figures and i got 4 vials of 3500iu it says hcg on the box it was less than £100 but more than £50
> 
> what i really want to know is would a pregnancy test be a reliable answer to whether its fake or not i really need to know this
> 
> it showing negative on a pregnancy test


The question of cost is because HCG is very cheap - so if you have paid alot for it - it may not actually by HCG.

A popular brand of HCG is Pregnyl - even on the net its very cheap for 5000iu.


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## Mars (Aug 25, 2007)

Ah so price talk is allowed then, new rules i guess


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

hello again guys sorry mars for mentioning prices as i was not aware,

you need to realise i have to be 100% sure that im getting real hcg as i am going to do the 45 day protocol if it fails i am on trt for life my doc has already presribed it me sustanon 250 injections

I am getting mixed answers now people saying hcg is rarely faked yet i have obtained 2 different brands fom 2 different sources . Now i have done the pregnancy test on both of these and used 2 different vials on each. Everyone of them showing negative, i have used several pregnancy test strips which are genuine 99% accurate.

I have took hackskiis advice and put less water in the vial as to make it more potent but pregnancy test still shows negative.

What i have decided to do is get one more lot of hcg the pregnyl ones and start the protocol then which may be in a few days.

JUST some advice needed here now i already started the protocol yesterday 2500iu of hcg and the clomid and nolvadex. i now want to discontinue this because not sure if the hcg is real , and start again in a few days when i get the pregnyl hcg is this ok . And would i still need to take the clomid and nolvadex just in caSE THE HCG WAS REAL BEARING IN MIND I ONLY DONE ONE SHOT.

I really appreciate your comments guys as i really dont want to mess this up i just want to give the protocol a go .

Much appreciated


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## Old but not out (Sep 8, 2009)

Give the nolvadex and clomid a miss - you can start as soon as any symptoms appear (if the do - eg itchy nipples) this would still stop any problems. Hope for some symptoms at least you know its real then!! If it is continue protocol

Try a pregnancy test on your urine about 24 hours after hCG jab


----------



## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

i haver only took shot of hcg yesterday but have decided wait for my supplier to get some pregnyl hcg then just start afresh in a few days time will that be ok . the problem is not knowing whether it was real or fake but hackskii says it shoukd definitely show positive on a pregnancy test but it never , thats why i want some different hcg . I hope all this makes sense to you .

I have only one chance of doing this protocol , i need to get it right as i have been shut down for a year now with test levels of a teenage girl.

Much apreciated


----------



## Huntingground (Jan 10, 2010)

Big Vin,

Did you get the Pregynl?


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

I have had bad HCG before, after no luck with the shots I tested it and it was negitive.

I suspect it was heat degraded.

If you left the stuff out and not refrigerated then this may cause the negative reading.


----------



## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

i have just taken old but not outs advice and done a pregnancy test on my own urine and it has come up positive . so it must be hcg and not fake.

hackskii mate i really need your help now i took my first 2500iu hcg shot yesterday at 12.0clock midday . the protocol says to take 2500iu every other day. but i have made a mistake i have just taken another 2500iu shot this evening at 7pm. i should have taken it tommorrow midday time , will it matter what should i do now just do it every other day from now .

Much appreciated


----------



## Themanabolic (Jun 25, 2009)

big vin said:


> i have just taken old but not outs advice and done a pregnancy test on my own urine and it has come up positive . so it must be hcg and not fake.
> 
> hackskii mate i really need your help now i took my first 2500iu hcg shot yesterday at 12.0clock midday . the protocol says to take 2500iu every other day. but i have made a mistake i have just taken another 2500iu shot this evening at 7pm. i should have taken it tommorrow midday time , will it matter what should i do now just do it every other day from now .
> 
> Much appreciated


Just do it every day from now on, It will be okay


----------



## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

That is cool, as long as you get that in you, you should be fine.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Never actually heard of us testing positive for pregnancy with HCG though, that is wild.


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

hackskii mate dont get me paranoid . i did a test on my own urine as someone suggested and it tested positive.

What i dont understand guys is that you are all saying i have done wrong by not doing pct over the years after cycling which is fair enough i did wrong and was ignorant . But if everyone is doing it correctly and doing the pct taking the hcg clomid etc, how come all the gyms that i have contacts with and have suppliers hardly any of them could get me the hcg, it took me ages to get some, its like nobody uses it .

anyway im now into my 4th day of the protocol.so when should i be doing some bloodwork to see if my testosterone has increased i can pre book a blood test . i will have test lh fsh shbg done .. so when would i need to do a blood test to see if the protocol is working?


----------



## Old but not out (Sep 8, 2009)

big vin said:


> hackskii mate dont get me paranoid . i did a test on my own urine as someone suggested and it tested positive.
> 
> What i dont understand guys is that you are all saying i have done wrong by not doing pct over the years after cycling which is fair enough i did wrong and was ignorant . But if everyone is doing it correctly and doing the pct taking the hcg clomid etc, how come all the gyms that i have contacts with and have suppliers hardly any of them could get me the hcg, it took me ages to get some, its like nobody uses it .
> 
> anyway im now into my 4th day of the protocol.so when should i be doing some bloodwork to see if my testosterone has increased i can pre book a blood test . i will have test lh fsh shbg done .. so when would i need to do a blood test to see if the protocol is working?


I don t think hackskii is trying to make you paranoid - he was just making the comment. If you have a positive test it can only be down to 2 things - you are pregnant or your hCG is real. You choose?

Well how are you feeling?

You will know if the hCG is working you will start to wake with erections again and also be able to ejaculate. I used this protocol after being shutdown and I felt nothing until my 5th hCG

When this starts to occur you may want to get tested. When you get tested initially there will be no point in getting LH and FSH done - only testosterone. The initial part of the protocol will only restart testosterone production. The hCG acts as LH would on your testes. All being well LH and FSH will start up 10-14 days after hCG is discontinued.


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## Dean00 (Jan 25, 2009)

Ive been keeping an eye on this thread for a while now and I hope you all the best big vin in your recovery.

Mustn feel like a man not being able to produce sperm

Hope you get better :beer:

on the upisde of it all your a big kant :lol:


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

thanks for your replies guys , just read the protocol again and i think it says do some bloodwork after 10 days , so i will do it then im sure hacskii can advice me.

and you are right if sucks i just dont feel like a man no interest in sex it gets me down i have been like this for nearly a year its just crap training and lifting weights with my extremely low test. i just need to be positive now

there was a sting for a while after my hcg injections Im on my 4th day now and the last couple of days i hve felt a slight soreness in my nuts only slight though..

thanks a lot for your comments it means a lot to me .


----------



## Old but not out (Sep 8, 2009)

big vin said:


> thanks for your replies guys , just read the protocol again and i think it says do some bloodwork after 10 days , so i will do it then im sure hacskii can advice me.
> 
> and you are right if sucks i just dont feel like a man no interest in sex it gets me down i have been like this for nearly a year its just crap training and lifting weights with my extremely low test. i just need to be positive now
> 
> ...


soreness is a good sign

4th day or 4th injection?


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

i had my 3rd injection today mate


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## Old but not out (Sep 8, 2009)

big vin said:


> i had my 3rd injection today mate


ok - plenty of time then - hope all goes well


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

thanks


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

You should start to feel better now actually, the ache in the nuts is common.

Wait about 10 days then take a test, your numbers should be noticible if the HCG is good.


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## Huntingground (Jan 10, 2010)

Vin, Did you get the Pregynl??


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## ChrisSimple (May 22, 2010)

Im new, I got to see this works or not.


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

huntingground i was going to get the pregnyl because i was not sure that the hcg that i had was real, but after doing a pregnancy test on my own urine it showed positive, this can only mean that hcg that i already had was real.


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## fat-2-thi-2-mus (Mar 8, 2010)

been a while since i herd anything big vin? any results? good or bad?


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

i have only just started the 45 day protocol im on my 7tht day of the protocol so early days yet i will keep you informed


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

hi again , i will have been on the protocol for 11 days , on friday in 2 days time and i will be having blood tests done

my question is to hackskii or anyone else is when i get my results back for testosterone should it have risen to confirm the protocol is working and what would it mean if the test levels are still the same as they have been for the last year ? 1.6 nmol/l (11-36)

will this mean the protocol is going to fail . and if the testosterone levels are the same and the protocol is not working can i go straight onto trt even though i have not finished the 45 day protocol?

would it have any effects going on trt while still on the protocol

i am anxious now i cant go through this summer with a crap body.

Much appreciated


----------



## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

If your levels have not risen then the HCG is no good, you should have a rather large spike in blood T levels, and probably should be within range.

If at this point you do not have any success then it is very likely the HCG is bad, if it is not bad then you are on TRT for life.

Just relax man.


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

with due respect to you hackskii but if my blood t levels have not risen how will i know if the hcg was bad it might have been good but just failed to work when i tested my own urine on a pregnancy stick it came up positive , surely this meant that the hcg was good. if my levels have not gone up when i get my results what do i do from there do i continue the protocol for the full 45 days ?

much appreciated


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## Will Temple (May 26, 2010)

I'd listen to hackskii's thread, he was told this information by a doc experienced with kick starting guys balls again


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

i have done mate im doing the protocol now


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Vin, your levels were moving up but very slowly, this tells me that your LH was having an influence on your T production, so no doubt if the HCG is real then your numbers will be much higher than they were.

I have not heard of guys testing positive for pregnancy before with the use of HCG, but when you suggested it was a negative responce on the pregnancy test yet shows positive on your pregnancy test that is strange.

If the HCG is no good then you wont show that much increase, you will have an increase but not really a big increase.

My brother over time recovered but the increase was slow but gradual.

HCG can send T levels quite high, so if it is working then you will be about in range if you test and the HCG is good. If you are at the low end of normal then just a few more shots is all that is needed.

Then follow up with clomid and nolva.

Are you feeling any better?

You should be experiancing night time erections.


----------



## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

i feel ok hackskii but i have had low sex drive for a year so cant really remember how i should feel if that makes any sense

,and am still not getting any erections during the night or in the morning . i have been having test results monthly and they were all the same 1.6 nmol/l i had one last month and it moved up to 2.3 nmol/l but just before i started the hcg 10 days a go i had as blood test and it was back to 1.6nmol/l the range should be between 11-36.

as for the hcg when i did a pregnancy test on my own urine i used a different tester to the one that i testede

the hcg..

i have read somewhere that a man who takes hcg could potentially test positive on a pregnancy test


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

this is what i read on the internet on a website ......

Another frequently common reason for a false positive pregnancy test is when women are using HCG injections in order to assist in getting pregnant. This means that HCG levels may register even when a pregnancy does not exist. Normally a blood test or obstetric examination helps to determine a true pregnancy from a false one. Theoretically, a man being injected with HCG could have a positive pregnancy test, even though one would know the man was not pregnant.


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

its thursday morning and i am on my 10th day of the protocol i have just been to the docs and had my blood test results.. to see my testosterone results i have also hasd blood test to check hcg in my blood

hopefully i will have my results tommorrow should be intresting

i will keep you informed.....


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## sn1 (May 20, 2010)

good luck to you my friend

must be a hard time

fingers crossed for u


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

hi guys its now friday and i have just got my blood results back..

for the last 10 mnths i have had testosterone levels checked every month and they have always been very very low between 1.5 and 1.7 nmol/l

todays results is showing 3.1 (10.0-37.0) so there is definitely an increase but its still below the normal range ... any views?

i also had a blood test for HCG which is 26 (0-7) so you can see hcg is very high and out of range this is obviously the hcg that i have been taking

other results were FSH 26 (1.0-11.0) LH 11 (1.0-8.0)

i also had SHBG done which is 40 (11-71) shgb has risen as it has usually been between 23 and 27

what does all this mean now although my testosterone is still low it has risen

i am now on my 12th day of the 45 day protocol

any views please

hacskii what do you think ?

Much appreciated


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## Mars (Aug 25, 2007)

Well it's working, thats good news hey 

SHBG is pretty high, did you get E2 checked, excess E2 raises SHBG leaving less free test. BTW, what was the test level for, free, bound or total?


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## Cra16 (Jan 23, 2010)

mars1960 said:


> Well it's working, thats good news hey
> 
> SHBG is pretty high, did you get E2 checked, excess E2 raises SHBG leaving less free test. BTW, what was the test level for, free, bound or total?


Mars does this protocol not use nolva, could that be another possible cause of raised shbg?


----------



## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Cra16 said:


> Mars does this protocol not use nolva, could that be another possible cause of raised shbg?


Yes he is and yes it can/will.

Good news Vin is it is moving in the right direction, course of action now is to keep using the HCG and when your T falls within range you stop the HCG and continue with the clomid and nolva.

The numbers should move faster now as the nuts become more sensitive.


----------



## Mars (Aug 25, 2007)

Cra16 said:


> Mars does this protocol not use nolva, could that be another possible cause of raised shbg?


Yes absolutely mate, i was thinking out loud here and wondered whether the addition of aromasin/exemestane may help as it's eficacy won't be affected by the nolva and clinical studies on estrogen reduction and increased testosterone look very favourable.


----------



## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

mars1960 said:


> Yes absolutely mate, i was thinking out loud here and wondered whether the addition of aromasin/exemestane may help as it's eficacy won't be affected by the nolva and clinical studies on estrogen reduction and increased testosterone look very favourable.


lol

This is one of the only times that I would probably use it.........

You know mars that I never recommend it but now in this instance with the long use of HCG and the elivated SHBG issue, I probably would, or add in some proviron, or both.


----------



## Cra16 (Jan 23, 2010)

hackskii said:


> lol
> 
> This is one of the only times that I would probably use it.........
> 
> You know mars that I never recommend it but now in this instance with the long use of HCG and the elivated SHBG issue, I probably would, or add in some proviron, or both.


I thought if you lowered shbg quickly it was one of the negative feed back loops for test production, is there a specific time you guys would add aromisin in or are there more factors a play here?


----------



## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Cra16 said:


> I thought if you lowered shbg quickly it was one of the negative feed back loops for test production, is there a specific time you guys would add aromisin in or are there more factors a play here?


I would consider using some due to SHBG binding to free test, this might help him feel a bit better with more free T, but his values he did not mention.

Keeping it within normal range would probably be a good thing.

Nolva can elivate that as well.


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

hey guys i really appreciate all this you know

the test results were for total testosterone

so are you saying that i have to continue hcg i have 2 more shots to take

when should i do blood tests again?

my doctor is not willing to give me any more blood tests because this protocol is not recognised by the health authority even though it seems to be working!!! they would rather put me on trt for life what a set on cnuts

dou you think im recovering wahts the issue with my still elevated LH and FSH?

what other info do you require ?

Much appreciated


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## Cra16 (Jan 23, 2010)

It looks like your recovering to me.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Yah, you will need to do a bit more I am thinking.

Elivated FSH and LH may be of two factors, clomid or false skewed test results from the HCG.

I mean if HCG mimics LH then that alone would suggest somthing to me.

You may need to do a bit more HCG.


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

my LH and FSH have always been elevated there has been no change in these levels for the last 10 mnths


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## JoeyRamone (Sep 10, 2009)

Mate your names at the top as well.

Good luck mate I've been following this avidly but am unable to contribute. Hope everything goes well for you


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

these are todays blood results and previous ones all dated dated so just to give you a clearer picture


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

lol joey i have paintbrushed my name now thanks


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Your Testosterone levels almost doubled in the last two weeks.

Id say perhaps 3 weeks left or maybe less with the HCG.

As time goes on the sensitivity will rise, so it may be exponential here.


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## Dean00 (Jan 25, 2009)

Good to see your on the mend :thumbup1:


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

hackskii are you saying continue the 45 day protocol 8 shots of hcg

so that means 2 more shots of hcg then continue with the clomid and nolva or should i take some more hcg ?

you mentioned earlier to take the hcg untill my test is within range but i wont know unless i take blood tests regulary say every few days but this is not going to be practical my doc is not gonna allow this

i could get a private blood test but they are expensive mut i dont mind paying for 1 or 2 so what i am asking when do you think i should take another test

the test i took today was after 10 days of the protocol as you suggested what you suggest ?

much appreciated


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

can you just clarify for me that there is no testoterone in the meds of the protocol the hcg and nolva and clomid so its the nuts that are making this rise in testosterone

sorry for sounding stupid

much appreciated


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## mal (Dec 31, 2009)

no there isnt.


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## TH0R (Aug 15, 2007)

I think Hacks meant you to carry on with the hcg for as long as it takes to get test numbers

back within range, the initial advice is only a guide and as we are all different some of us

will have to take more, some less. You'll have to get blood tests done for this.

I'm not sure your doctor can refuse you a blood test but if he has and sticks to it you'll have

to pay. He must be a sh1thouse if he can see you recovering but refuses to help, I'd threaten

to complain.

There is no test in hcg, nolva or clomid. You are recovering so just keep it up Vin

All the best bud


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

tel3563 said:


> I think Hacks meant you to carry on with the hcg for as long as it takes to get test numbers
> 
> back within range, the initial advice is only a guide and as we are all different some of us
> 
> ...


Bingo, exactally what I ment.

I would continue on the course and add a few more shots of HCG and probably lengthen this out a bit longer.

Remember your test levels almost doubled the time you started this.

Again, once they become more sensitive your numbers will move faster.


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## fat-2-thi-2-mus (Mar 8, 2010)

Glad to see things are on the up!


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

thanks for your support guys


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

im going to speak to my doctor as soon as asking him why he is fefusing to give me more blood tests when the protocol seems to be working

.He will say that the protocol is not authorised or is on the national health systemand they do not have the resources to fund it but im going to challenge this saying that i have not asked the national health for the meds for the protocol and merely asking for more blood tests , after all i want is to recover and save the national health money in the long run as the doctor wants me to go on trt for life which i want to avoid.

It seems they are not interested its like there is a cure for my problem but they dont want to know.. tell you what if i fully recover im going to have a field day with my 2 endos and my gp

Much appreciated


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## Terrawatt (May 22, 2010)

big vin said:


> im going to speak to my doctor as soon as asking him why he is fefusing to give me more blood tests when the protocol seems to be working
> 
> .He will say that the protocol is not authorised or is on the national health systemand they do not have the resources to fund it but im going to challenge this saying that i have not asked the national health for the meds for the protocol and merely asking for more blood tests , after all i want is to recover and save the national health money in the long run as the doctor wants me to go on trt for life which i want to avoid.
> 
> ...


I'd second that. Throw a few fcuk's into 'em and then write to the GMC. :cursing:


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## jimmystar (Oct 22, 2005)

isnt it like refusing to check a patients lungs cos they will not stop smoking ?

i would stand your ground mate , they cant do that .


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## BillC (Jun 11, 2009)

The words you need to say in a polite manner are "Duty of Care". He'll give you tests, or he could get struck off. Why not tell him you'll agree to follow his advice to the letter if the protocol fails, just want to try this one thing, it's your life not his and it's your money.


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

thanks for your very good advice im going to take it on board

much appreciated


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

You could keep on the HCG till you get night time erections, that is a pretty good indication that something is going on in the deep south......vvvvvvvvvv


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

when i got the hcg for the protocol i got 8 2500iu shots as advised but i might need some more hcg. So I have just got some and its called HCG-LEPORI 2500

it says on the box via intramuscular but i have been taking the hcg that i previously got was serotropin i took this subcontaneous as you advised .

can i take the lepori hcg sub con or do i have to do it intramuscular as it says on the box .there is an instruction leaflet in the box but its written in foreign so i cant understand

i have put on some pictures on


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Sub Q is totally fine.


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

ok thanks hacskii


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## ollie321 (Mar 29, 2010)

Ive been following this from the start, glad to read things are going in the right direction. I agree that your GP should allow you the blood tests and I would kick off big time till I got them. Good luck pal:thumb:


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

thanks ollie


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

Hi guys this is just an update im now into my 18 day of the protocol im taking hackskiis advice and adding some more shots of hcg. im feeling ok but still not getting any morning woods etc.

my endo phoned me yesterday i asked him his views on the protocol . He aid on looking on the latest blood tests that there has been an improvement but also stated that my shgb had risen to 40 and explaining that although my testosterone had increased the actuall free test was still low but he did say that it had risen . He told me the formula to calculate free test was to divide the testosterone by the shgb then multiply by 100

test 3.1 divided by shgb 40 multiplied by 100 giving a free test of 7.75.

Do you gives have any idea why my shgb has risen from 26 to 40 ?

He is admitting that there is significant improvement considering it had only been 10 days on the protocol.

I told him that i needed to do regular blood test to check the levels then i could adjust the hcg accordingly, i told him my gp was refusing to give me tests .He said that he would check my blood again in about another week and see where we go from there..

I will keep you all informed , by the way you guys on here are the best.

Much appreciated


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## SD (Sep 3, 2004)

big vin said:


> Hi guys this is just an update im now into my 18 day of the protocol im taking hackskiis advice and adding some more shots of hcg. im feeling ok but still not getting any morning woods etc.
> 
> my endo phoned me yesterday i asked him his views on the protocol . He aid on looking on the latest blood tests that there has been an improvement but *also stated that my shgb had risen to 40* and explaining that although my testosterone had increased the actuall free test was still low but he did say that it had risen . He told me the formula to calculate free test was to divide the testosterone by the shgb then multiply by 100
> 
> ...


Congrats mate :thumb: we now have the same SHBG! We both also used the same protocol.

SOmething is happening here, we need to get to the bottom of the SHBG problem, without which my free test would be the low side of normal too.

Hacks said on my thread he guessed it was due to high estrogen? Did your endo test for estrogen Vin?

SD


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## SD (Sep 3, 2004)

From Wiki:

*SHBG production*

SHBG is produced most by the liver and is released into the bloodstream. Other sites that produce SHBG include the brain, uterus, testes, and placenta. Testes-produced SHBG is called androgen-binding protein. The gene for SHBG is located on chromosome 17.

*Control*

*SHBG levels appear to be controlled by a delicate balance of enhancing and inhibiting factors. Its level is decreased by high levels of **insulin** and insulin-like growth factor 1 (**IGF-1**) (see:**milk**). Also, high **androgen** and **transcortin** levels decrease SHBG, while high **growth hormone**, **estrogen** and **thyroxine** levels increase it.*

However, recent evidence suggests that it is the liver's production of fats that reduces SHBG levels,[2][3] not any direct effect of insulin and specific genetic mechanisms have been found that do this.

*Conditions with high or low levels*

Conditions with low SHBG include polycystic ovary syndrome, diabetes, and hypothyroidism. Conditions with high SHBG include pregnancy, hyperthyroidism, and anorexia nervosa. There has recently been research to link high SHBG levels with breast and testicular cancer as well.

It looks like Wiki concurs with Hacks, it would be high estrogen that would be causing it. In my case, my doc tested my thyroid and it was fine so that hasn't caused it, ded your Doc test yours?

So how do we get rid of estrogen thats already there?

SD


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## DogBoy (Aug 11, 2009)

big vin said:


> i have not been on anything for last 10 months i went to see an endocrologist 6 months ago he told me that i may still have some androgens in my body still which will be supressing the natural testosterone he said its just a case of wait and see if i recover i never taken any nolva clomid ever my endo has not avised any of these these are my blood test results that were done last week testoterone 1.7 nmol/l (10.0-37.0) shgb 30 (11-71) *fsh 28 (1.0-11.0) lh 12 (1.0-8.0) as you can see testosterone extremely low and fsh and lh very high can you help*


not sure if this has been pointed out before,(not reading 22 pages)but this suggests to me primary hypogonadism.The problem isn't restarting your pituatry,thats working just fine,it's your nuts aren't working.

TRT lifer....guaranteed


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

Thats what the docs and endos think dogboy they say there is nothing wrong with the signals being sent down to the testes with fsh and lh elevated but the problem lies with the nuts saying that they are knackered , but they are not used to seeing patients who have abused anabolic steroids, people on here think differently and that the protocol will work. I gonna last it out for a while longer see what my next blood tests show then if need be i go on trt cause i cant go on much longer with this low test i cant make any progress in the gym im not getting any bigger and seem to be accumulating some fat around my stomach and i cant get rid of it im doing cardio and eating clean foods.


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

SD i have had all thyroid test done and they are showing normal i had my estrogen levels checked 2 weeks ago i posted the results on here

(estrogen) 132 pmol/l (22-162) my endo said it was in range .

what you guys reckon i think its within range although on the high side.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

We talked about this some, adding in some aromasin would lower your estrogen and SHBG would have less binding.

It is the nolva elivating your SHBG and this will return to normal once you stop the PCT.

Proviron might be of some help here as well, but aromasin would be something I may want to consider low dose.


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## DogBoy (Aug 11, 2009)

big vin said:


> Thats what the docs and endos think dogboy they say there is nothing wrong with the signals being sent down to the testes with fsh and lh elevated but the problem lies with the nuts saying that they are knackered , but they are not used to seeing patients who have abused anabolic steroids, people on here think differently and that the protocol will work. I gonna last it out for a while longer see what my next blood tests show then if need be i go on trt cause i cant go on much longer with this low test i cant make any progress in the gym im not getting any bigger and seem to be accumulating some fat around my stomach and i cant get rid of it im doing cardio and eating clean foods.


Yep absolutely nothing wrong with the signals,infact they're working perfectly sensing the low test and chucking out higher levels in an attempt to produce test. Sorry to say I agree 100% with your doc and endo....if you're not producing test with massive amounts of hcg,then you're not going to produce anything when you stop it......infact you could be making it worse by desensitising yourself to LH


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## Old but not out (Sep 8, 2009)

SD said:


> From Wiki:
> 
> *SHBG production*
> 
> ...


It has a very short half life and will clear itself - just lower future production


----------



## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

my endo asked me what doses of hcg i was taking and i told him 2500iu every other day , i mentioned the desensitising and he said it would take a lot more than 2500iu to desensitise


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

DogBoy said:


> Yep absolutely nothing wrong with the signals,infact they're working perfectly sensing the low test and chucking out higher levels in an attempt to produce test. Sorry to say I agree 100% with your doc and endo....if you're not producing test with massive amounts of hcg,then you're not going to produce anything when you stop it......infact you could be making it worse by desensitising yourself to LH


But that is the case, 10 days he doubled his test levels, his nuts are working better than ever, once the nuts are shut down you dont get high levels of testosterone over night or after a couple of shots of HCG.

Stay the course bro, everyhing is looking up, take some vitamin D and E too.


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

Hackskii thats what my endo said , i asked him for a blood test and he said leave it another week as its not going to moverthat quickly overnight.

I have been taking vits E and D as you advised.

Thanks for the imputs im getting guys

Much appreciated


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## hilly (Jan 19, 2008)

hackskii said:


> We talked about this some, adding in some aromasin would lower your estrogen and SHBG would have less binding.
> 
> It is the nolva elivating your SHBG and this will return to normal once you stop the PCT.
> 
> Proviron might be of some help here as well, but aromasin would be something I may want to consider low dose.


#

hacksii what about a low dose of both proviron and aromasin for pct such as 25mg proviron and 12.5mg aromasin in instances like this were some1 is shut down really hard


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

It probably would be a good thing for him as his libido is low.


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## DogBoy (Aug 11, 2009)

big vin said:


> my endo asked me what doses of hcg i was taking and i told him 2500iu every other day , i mentioned the desensitising and he said it would take a lot more than 2500iu to desensitise


Maybe in someone whos nuts are working 100% efficiently.....I don't know,its speculation from both of us.But 8750iu of HCG is 16 x the normal dosage per week.I believe thats why shock doses are used just a couple of times at the end of a cycle....like 2 or 3 shots of 2500iu to really kickstart the system and avoid desentisation....but as i said i think its speculation from both of us.I wouldn't want to risk possibly desentising the small amount of cells that are working.



hackskii said:


> But that is the case, 10 days he doubled his test levels, his nuts are working better than ever, once the nuts are shut down you dont get high levels of testosterone over night or after a couple of shots of HCG.
> 
> Stay the course bro, everyhing is looking up, take some vitamin D and E too.


yeah he's doubled his levels,sure....but my point is he's not cycled for 10 months,so his pituatry has been pumping out high numbers of LH/FSH for some time with no response from his nuts.The protocol would be perfect for someone whos been shutdown with atrophied nuts AND supressed pituatry,but the pituatry has been working fine....better than fine.

Like i said,i really do hope this works out,this is just my opinion.


----------



## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

His pituitary can do anything, if the nuts dont respond you are primary hypogonadism.

That would be TRT for life.


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## DogBoy (Aug 11, 2009)

hackskii said:


> His pituitary can do anything, if the nuts dont respond you are primary hypogonadism.
> 
> That would be TRT for life.


precisely


----------



## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

But they are responding.


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## DogBoy (Aug 11, 2009)

hackskii said:


> But they are responding.


They are responding to supraphysiological amounts of LH (HCG) that the body can't replicate.....they haven't responded to above range natural levels.

Like i said and re-itterate,i hope this does work.


----------



## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

DogBoy said:


> They are responding to supraphysiological amounts of LH (HCG) that the body can't replicate.....they haven't responded to above range natural levels.
> 
> Like i said and re-itterate,i hope this does work.


Ah, I see what you are saying, but they were responding, just very slowly.

Once the testicles shut down, they dont respond very well to LH.

This is why it may take over a year to recover with no intervention.

Supraphysiological amounts of LH (HCG) force the nuts to respond, this is why HCG us used throughout a cycle to keep and maintain testicular function, this makes recovery easier.

Supraphysiological levels are used (testicular atrophy) to stimulate the leydig cells to produce testosterone, once they become stimulated they respond even better and are more sensitive, thus many can lower the dose of HCG because the nuts become more ready to accept the responce from LH.

Once they return to normal his LH that is high by normal standards will lower as the leydig cells become more sensitive due to stimulation and not being atrophied.

I have no doubt he will recover, he needs to spend less time worrying and more time enjoying life, worrying just makes things worse.


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## DogBoy (Aug 11, 2009)

I understand the theory and protocol,but i personally think that after 10 years of use without PCT,the cells may be more than just desensitised.

I guess we will find out....fingers crossed for a good outcome

sub'd


----------



## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Well, check this one out.

As men age, the leydig cells tend to become less sensitive, this seems obvious as LH and FSH tend to rise in older men yet testosterone falls like 3% a year after 50 (if my memory serves me correctly), so the pituitary is trying to elivate T levels yet it doesnt happen.

I have seen young men with super low levels of LH yet have massive T levels (upper end).

I think at this point one can only speculate but aging is a bitch. :lol:

What makes leydig cells more sensitive, or another question would be why do they lose sensitivity?

Some feel vitamin E helps the leydig cells, GH too, and keeping estrogen in check would be a good idea too if it is elivated.

Did you know that men at 55 have more estrogen than their female counterparts age being the same?

Sorry for rambling on, bored.......lol


----------



## DogBoy (Aug 11, 2009)

hackskii said:


> Well, check this one out.
> 
> As men age, the leydig cells tend to become less sensitive, this seems obvious as LH and FSH tend to rise in older men yet testosterone falls like 3% a year after 50 (if my memory serves me correctly), so the pituitary is trying to elivate T levels yet it doesnt happen.


We all age appearance wise at different rates,mature and hormonally decline at different rates also....maybe this would explain the high LH/FSH....low T



> I have seen young men with super low levels of LH yet have massive T levels (upper end).


so the same would also be true for the opposite.



> I think at this point one can only speculate but aging is a bitch. :lol:


agreed and agreed 



> What makes leydig cells more sensitive, or another question would be why do they lose sensitivity?


I don't believe anything makes them more 'sensitive' They're either working or not....but i think its the amount of cells thats working which counts.They lose sensitivity because of shut down and lack of use/need/cell death



> Some feel vitamin E helps the leydig cells, GH too, and keeping estrogen in check would be a good idea too if it is elivated.
> 
> Did you know that men at 55 have more estrogen than their female counterparts age being the same?


Some feel drinking blood of their victims makes them become part of them.Lol,but seriously,i think with a balanced diet we get all the nutrients and minerals we need.I can definitely see GH being beneficial and keeping estro in range.

No i did not know that 



> Sorry for rambling on, bored.......lol


no probs,same here.....watching 'Goonies' lol


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Just watched The Crazies yesterday, I actually liked the movie and the concept.


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## DogBoy (Aug 11, 2009)

hackskii said:


> Just watched The Crazies yesterday, I actually liked the movie and the concept.


I'd never even heard of it...had to google! lol....does sound pretty good though!

Sorry for thread de-rail OP


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

I have been away for a couple of days just read the updates thanks guys i really appeciate you interest and concern ,

I will keep you posted


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## lostwars (Nov 7, 2008)

if im correct i believe LH and FSH begin to rise soon after we finish with a steriod cycle, alot of ppl believed this didnt happen, the problem lies in the testicular atrophy and the inability of the testes to jump start the engine

if we didnt use a pct protocol it can take anything from 12-18mths for the HPTA to reach homostatis, i suppose this depends on what compounds one used also

vin was 10mths without aas and still there was no change in his low numbers, i really hope this works for you buddy but i have me doubts

i too believe the rise in numbers you see are due to the high levels of HCG, i am following with intrest, id use some proviron may help with wood and id use HGH if money aint a problem may help with the extra fat you are starting to hold around the midsection


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## Old but not out (Sep 8, 2009)

lostwars said:


> if im correct i believe LH and FSH begin to rise soon after we finish with a steriod cycle, alot of ppl believed this didnt happen, the problem lies in the testicular atrophy and the inability of the testes to jump start the engine
> 
> if we didnt use a pct protocol it can take anything from 12-18mths for the HPTA to reach homostatis, i suppose this depends on what compounds one used also
> 
> ...


Sorry to diversify - but I have often wondered wether after a cycle a slowish taper of hCG with SERMS would not be a good recovery method?

At around 100iu a day healthy testicles can still produce low/normal T and little inhibition of LH/FSH would occur - especially with SERM?


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

just an update guys im still continuing hcg in the same doses and will do another blood test within the next week,

hackskii you are right about the worrying about it both my endos ang gp said it will make it worse worrying about it . Im also going through a lot of stress at the moment having to sue my business partner for a large amount of money will have to drags things through a court none of this helps as stress lowers test,.

Anyway im keeping positive and will continue the protocol .

Much appreciated.


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## Old but not out (Sep 8, 2009)

big vin said:


> just an update guys im still continuing hcg in the same doses and will do another blood test within the next week,
> 
> hackskii you are right about the worrying about it both my endos ang gp said it will make it worse worrying about it . Im also going through a lot of stress at the moment having to sue my business partner for a large amount of money will have to drags things through a court none of this helps as stress lowers test.
> 
> ...


Bang on mate. Even a healthy HPTA will be severely impacted on by stress let alone one that is trying to recover itself. Do whatever you can to minimise all your stress. I am due to end an eight week cycle and go into PCT next week - have some major stress in my life and am thinking about prolonging cycle until I can solve the probs. Also make sure you are sleeping - an extra hours sleep makes a huge difference, see the link below

http://www.ergo-log.com/sleeptestosterone.html

How are you feeling? Any changes you have noticed yet?

:beer:


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Old but not out said:


> Bang on mate. Even a healthy HPTA will be severely impacted on by stress let alone one that is trying to recover itself. Do whatever you can to minimise all your stress. I am due to end an eight week cycle and go into PCT next week - have some major stress in my life and am thinking about prolonging cycle until I can solve the probs. Also make sure you are sleeping - an extra hours sleep makes a huge difference, see the link below
> 
> http://www.ergo-log.com/sleeptestosterone.html
> 
> ...


Nice post.

Sleep apnea is one reason for men to have low Testosterone levels.

Lets not forget that with the added stress cortisol elivates, this increases belly fat and aromatase enzyme resides in belly fat, so you get a double whammy there of elivated cortisol, and estrogen.


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

hiya hacskii im feeling pretty much the same still low libido but im not sure how my libido should feel really as i have been using steroids for years and my sex drive has been sky high , no morning woods gonna see if i can get another bloosd test in next few days.

just an observation here when i first appoached my endo a year ago i told him my problem and that i been using steroids he asked me which ones ,. i told him sustanon 250 and decca and i showed him some empty vials,, he said that the decca could still be in my system for over a yeareand that i still had androgens in my system that could be suppressing my natural test . What is the life span of decca do you think it could be still in me a year on ?

Much appreciated


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## Old but not out (Sep 8, 2009)

big vin said:


> hiya hacskii im feeling pretty much the same still low libido but im not sure how my libido should feel really as i have been using steroids for years and my sex drive has been sky high , no morning woods gonna see if i can get another bloosd test in next few days.
> 
> just an observation here when i first appoached my endo a year ago i told him my problem and that i been using steroids he asked me which ones ,. i told him sustanon 250 and decca and i showed him some empty vials,, he said that the decca could still be in my system for over a yeareand that i still had androgens in my system that could be suppressing my natural test . What is the life span of decca do you think it could be still in me a year on ?
> 
> Much appreciated


The active life of deca is only weeks after discontinuing use. The metabolites of deca can be traced for up to 12-18 months but these metabolites will not continue to supress you hpta


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

thanks old but not out.

I have just got some more hcg but im not sure about it have anyone come across this, the vials say 2500iu they have blue tops just a bit concerned that it says for research use only on the box .. i have posted pics

they are from pro design no bull hcg by the way it cost me £55 for 20,000 iu

much appreciated


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Old but not out said:


> The active life of deca is only weeks after discontinuing use. The metabolites of deca can be traced for up to 12-18 months but these metabolites will not continue to supress you hpta


Its longer than that bro, my brother after his last shot of 300mg deca he still was getting testicular atrophy 3 months later.

Took him a year before he bounced back.


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## Old but not out (Sep 8, 2009)

hackskii said:


> Its longer than that bro, my brother after his last shot of 300mg deca he still was getting testicular atrophy 3 months later.
> 
> Took him a year before he bounced back.


A year to bounce back but not a year to clear deca?

I have seen various calculations for deca half at 6-12 days. Most compounds become biologically inert after a maximum of 10-half lives. So at those half lives even the maximum time it can be active in your body is between 60 - 120 days?


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## im sparticus (Oct 22, 2005)

ive been following this thread since you started it. although i cant comment or help you out as my knowledge is very limited in this area,i wish you all the best vin.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Old but not out said:


> A year to bounce back but not a year to clear deca?
> 
> I have seen various calculations for deca half at 6-12 days. Most compounds become biologically inert after a maximum of 10-half lives. So at those half lives even the maximum time it can be active in your body is between 60 - 120 days?


My bro was shut down, he did just 10000iu HCG and low dose clomid for a short period of time, things bounced back for a minute then months later bang, testicular atrophy, 3 months from last jab he was getting testicular atrophy, cant explain that one.

Only time I would ever think of using deca would be when I used it as a cycle by itself then swap to testosterone.

One other side I notice from deca, it makes me pshcho, and ramps up my sex drive similar to test which I find strange.


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

hi guys whats your views on me training with very low test can i still build muscle or will i be just maintaining what ive got?

if im training and breaking down muscle then feeding the muscle with protein and carbs surely the muscle will repair and grow even with very low test or am i wrong?

i thought testosterone created new muscle cells so will i be able to maintain what i already have ? im asking this cause 2 guys in the gym tonight asked me what gear i was taking if only they knew that i have had hardly any test in the last year

what you think guys i havnt lost much weight probably about 6 or 7 pounds and im still strong maybe 15% less strength

Much appreciated


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## DogBoy (Aug 11, 2009)

I wouldn't be sweating about building muscle at this present time....but still train....hell yeah!!!


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## Old but not out (Sep 8, 2009)

big vin said:


> hi guys whats your views on me training with very low test can i still build muscle or will i be just maintaining what ive got?
> 
> if im training and breaking down muscle then feeding the muscle with protein and carbs surely the muscle will repair and grow even with very low test or am i wrong?
> 
> ...


Testosterone allows your body to reutilise the amino acids that are broken down during exercise. When you examine protein synthesis using labelled amino acids you find that testosterone does not increase amino acid uptake to cells - rather it lowers the amount lost from cells. It is a protein sparer.

In terms of your exercise regime I would work at high intensity and at not too high a volume. High volume sessions can have the effect of acutely increasing testosterone after a session but when blocks of high volume sessions are put together they cause increases in resting and exercise induced cortisol concentrations and decreases in resting and exercise induced testosterone concentrations. You want neither of these.

In terms of your CV - if you do any - short blocks of anaerobic work - or 20 min of low intensity aerobic are best. Excessive work will again lower testosterone (acutely and chronically) and will increase resting cortisol levels. High intensity anaerobic work can be advantageous - lactic acid is a great potentiater for the production and secretion of testosterone - even more so than LH and can act independently of LH.

Incidentally training more than once a day has been shown to lower resting testosterone in even elite athletes - so will not aid your cause. I have looked at elite athletes entering high volume hypertrophy programs and endurance programs and their free testosterone concentrations can plummet by 60% in a matter of 10-12 days.

Weight train like a powerlifter - CV like a 100m sprinter. I would think this is the reasonable way to maintain muscle and definitely the best way to aid recovery. As for building muscle - if you are an AS user you are probably holding muscle above your genetic potential still. So like all of us - you will not gain any more off cycle.

No negative calorie balance, no low carbs, no low fat. Minimise sugar and sweets/chocolates or anything that causes a quick rise in insulin - this lowers testosterone.


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

still doesnt answer my question though any one any views ??


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## DogBoy (Aug 11, 2009)

wow...OBNO fcking nailed it....i was merely working along the lines of don't overthink things and just train lol


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

ok thanks but whats OBNO mean?


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## DogBoy (Aug 11, 2009)

big vin said:


> ok thanks but whats OBNO mean?


Oldbutnotout


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

sorry guys i never saw OBNO'S post OBNO whats your conclusion then can i still build muscle or retain what i have with low test?

Much appreciated


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## Old but not out (Sep 8, 2009)

big vin said:


> sorry guys i never saw OBNO'S post OBNO whats your conclusion then can i still build muscle or retain what i have with low test?
> 
> Much appreciated


You could probably maintain where you are currently - if you weight strength has been stable. Will you gain -I doubt it. You have a long training history and have used AS - you won t gain without them again (I know I hate that too).


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## Mars (Aug 25, 2007)

hackskii said:


> Well, check this one out.
> 
> As men age, the leydig cells tend to become less sensitive, this seems obvious as LH and FSH tend to rise in older men yet testosterone falls like 3% a year after 50 (if my memory serves me correctly), so the pituitary is trying to elivate T levels yet it doesnt happen.
> 
> ...


Egr transcription factors, specifically Egr1 and Egr4.

Also this hasn't been mentioned yet but just because his pituitary is producing LH and FSH it doesn't mean that he is producing these vital transcription factors.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Old but not out said:


> lactic acid is a great potentiater for the production and secretion of testosterone - even more so than LH and can act independently of LH.


Can you go into more details on this please.

I have known for a long time long distance runners have lower T levels, than those that dont.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

mars1960 said:


> Egr transcription factors, specifically Egr1 and Egr4.
> 
> Also this hasn't been mentioned yet but just because his pituitary is producing LH and FSH it doesn't mean that he is producing these vital transcription factors.


Hey bro, can you go into more details on this please?


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## Mars (Aug 25, 2007)

hackskii said:


> Hey bro, can you go into more details on this please?


No :lol: .

This is pretty advanced endocrinology, it's difficult to even put in basic terms, suffice to say they are gene expression transcription factors that influence leydig cell steroidgenesis.

Have a read on zinc finger transcription factors.


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## Old but not out (Sep 8, 2009)

hackskii said:


> Can you go into more details on this please.
> 
> I have known for a long time long distance runners have lower T levels, than those that dont.


That is because the suppression of testosterone they suffer from the volume of work they perform and high cortisol levels outweighs any effect that lactic acid has on their testosterone secretion.

I have a 20,000 word literature review that I submitted for a pHD thesis that deals with exercise and its impact on testosterone as well as testosterone production, secretion and the influence testosterone has on males and the basic biochemistry of testosterone, plus testosterones influence on exercise and performance (plus all the above on cortisol) - PM an e mail and I will send if you are interested.

In terms of lactic acid and testosterone secretion see the abstract below

Med Sci Sports Exerc. 1997 Aug;29(8):1048-54.

Lactate and the effects of exercise on testosterone secretion: evidence for the involvement of a cAMP-mediated mechanism.

Lu SS, Lau CP, Tung YF, Huang SW, Chen YH, Shih HC, Tsai SC, Lu CC, Wang SW, Chen JJ, Chien EJ, Chien CH, Wang PS.

Department of Physiology, National Yang-Ming University, Taipei, Taiwan, Republic of China.

Abstract

The effects of swimming and lactate on the release of testosterone were examined in male rats. During in vivo experiments, male rats were catheterized via the right jugular vein and blood was collected at 0, 10, 15, 30, and 60 min following the exercise, or they were catheterized via the right jugular vein and the left femoral vein and blood was collected at 0, 2, 5, 10, 15, 30, 60, and 120 min after a 10-min infusion at lactate (13 mg.kg-1.min-1). Trunk blood and blood from the testicular vein were also collected after 10 min of swimming or water immersion. In an in vitro experiment, testicular fragments were challenged with lactate (0.01-10 mM) and/or human chorionic gonadotropin (hCG; 0.5 IU.mL-1), and the mediobasal hypothalamus (MBH) was challenged with lactate (8 mM). The post-exercise levels of plasma lactate and testosterone at 10, 15, and 30 min were higher than resting levels. Plasma luteinizing hormone (LH) was increased following 30 min of swimming. Administration of lactate or hCG increased in a dose dependent manner testicular cyclic adenosine 3':5' monophosphate (cAMP) and testosterone release. Plasma testosterone increased after swimming and lactate infusion. Incubation of MBH with lactate increased the gonadotropin-releasing hormone (GnRH) level in the medium. *These results suggest that the increased plasma testosterone levels in male rats during exercise is at least partially a result of a direct and LH-independent stimulatory effect of lactate on the secretion of testosterone by increasing testicular cAMP production.* Swim-elevated plasma LH may be a result of a rise of GnRH caused by lactate.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

I have heard of some boost in GH production with lactic acid as well.

I think for resistance training the sweet spot is half hour to just under an hour.

I have heard of men running long distance having ED problems, no doubt it is from that.

Plus some long distance runners look like they have low lean muscle and suprisingly look kind of flabby.

Big contrast from the sprinters, who look ripped and muscular.


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## Old but not out (Sep 8, 2009)

hackskii said:


> I have heard of some boost in GH production with lactic acid as well.
> 
> I think for resistance training the sweet spot is half hour to just under an hour.
> 
> ...


In exercise - both testosterone and growth hormone secretion are directly related to lactic acid secretion as long as a minimum duration os completed.

Long distance runners are often diagnosed as hypogonadic - around 70km a week will impact significantly on T production. There are a number of theories why - the most probable seems to be a direct action of cortisol on (prebvention/interferance) of T production. This would also explain why stress/lack of sleep/low calorie intake etc (anything that causes chronic cortisol increases) will lower T levels.


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## Old but not out (Sep 8, 2009)

Big Vin - what goes mate - any news?


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Old but not out said:


> In exercise - both testosterone and growth hormone secretion are directly related to lactic acid secretion as long as a minimum duration os completed.
> 
> Long distance runners are often diagnosed as hypogonadic - around 70km a week will impact significantly on T production. There are a number of theories why - the most probable seems to be a direct action of cortisol on (prebvention/interferance) of T production. This would also explain why stress/lack of sleep/low calorie intake etc (anything that causes chronic cortisol increases) will lower T levels.


Nice avatar by the way...

Yah, trust me I hear you, even sleep apnea can lower T levels, stress, zinc defiencies, etc.

What sucks is when I was young, sex dreams, night time erections, pee erections almost every day.

Then down the road you realize these dont happen very much anymore, then you realize you miss them, especially when you do a cycle and get a wild increase in libido.

This is going to sound strange, and I have no idea why but here goes, when I take my GHRP-2 at evening, I notice I get more night time erections and more sex dreams, I also notice my face gets more oily.

Any ideas here what is up with that?

I remember reading about GH and leydig cells, if I had to guess it would be due to being more sensitive to LH.


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## Old but not out (Sep 8, 2009)

hackskii said:


> Nice avatar by the way...
> 
> Yah, trust me I hear you, even sleep apnea can lower T levels, stress, zinc defiencies, etc.
> 
> ...


I know little regarding growth hormone. There is a relationship between T and growth hormones. If I remember correctly Testosterone increases the local secretion (in muscles) of IGF(1). Returning the testosterone levels ogf elderly men to those of young men will increase IGF(1) to the levels of young males also.

I do not know much about the impact that growth hormone has on testosterone secretion - but the abstracts below confirm your thoughts. I have also spoken to individuals with excellent knowledge regarding PED and they maintain growth is good not only for muscle maintenance but aids recovery

Growth Hormone Regulates Steroidogenic Acute Regulatory Protein Expression and Steroidogenesis in Leydig Cell Progenitors1

Masanori Kanzaki and Patricia L. Morris

Population Council (M.K., P.L.M) and The Rockefeller University (P.L.M.), New York, New York 10021

Address all correspondence and requests for reprints to: Dr. Patricia L. Morris, Center for Biomedical Research, Population Council and The Rockefeller University, 1230 York Avenue, New York, New York 10021. E-mail: [email protected]

Gonadal development and differentiation is dependent in part on GH, as GH deficiency has been implicated as a cause of lowered fertility and spermatogenic cessation in humans and some biological models. In this study, we demonstrate that GH receptor messenger RNA (mRNA) is preferentially expressed in progenitor Leydig cells (PLCs) isolated and purified from 21-day-old rats. GH induces significant increases in the levels of steroidogenic acute regulatory protein (StAR), 3ß-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase (3ß-HSD) expression, and androgen production in PLCs. Additionally, the cytokine interferon- (IFN) markedly inhibits GH-stimulated StAR mRNA and protein levels. When cells are cultured with both GH and IFN, IFN decreases the stimulating effect of GH on androgen production. Treatment of PLCs with cycloheximide does not prevent the GH-induced StAR mRNA, indicating that GH induction of StAR transcripts does not require de novo protein synthesis. In contrast, the induction of 3ß-HSD mRNA by GH is altered by cycloheximide treatment. H7, a serine/threonine kinase inhibitor, completely abrogates the increases in StAR mRNA by GH, whereas the tyrosine kinase inhibitor genistein does not. Moreover, GH further enhances StAR and 3ß-HSD mRNA expression in isolated adult rat Leydig cells despite their increased basal expression subsequent to maturational acquisition of these steroidogenic components. These data provide the first demonstration of the direct effects of GH on testicular steroidogenesis during progenitor Leydig cell differentiation.

Growth hormone and insulin-like growth factor I stimulate Leydig cell steroidogenesis

Reiko Horikawaa, Kumiko Asakawaa, Naomi Hizuka, a, Kazue Takanoa and Kazuo Shizumea

aDepartment of Medicine, Institute of Clinical Endocrinology, Tokyo Women's Medical College and Research Laboratory, The Foundation for Growth Science, Tokyo 162, Japan

Received 9 March 1989; accepted 4 April 1989. Available online 1 November 2002.

Abstract

Leydig cells from 40 days old rats were incubated with or without human growth hormone (hGH) or insulin-like growth factor I (IGF-I) in the presence or absence of human chorionic gonadotropin (hCG), and testosterone and cyclic AMP (cAMP) levels in the medium were measured. Neither hGH nor IGF-I increased testosterone production in the absence of hCG in concentrations up to 1000 and 100 ng/ml, respectively. However, both peptides increased hCG-induced testosterone production in a dose-dependent manner. The maximal stimulatory concentrations of hGH and IGF-I were 100 and 50 ng/ml, respectively. Human GH did not further enhance the IGF-I-stimulated steroidogenesis. The hGH-augmented steroidogenesis was inhibited by anti-hGH IgG and anti-IGF-I IgG. hGH also enhanced hCG-stimulated cAMP production time dependently, suggesting that the stimulatory effect of hGH on steroidogenesis was due to an increased cAMP production. These data suggest that the effect of hGH might be mediated by locally produced IGF-I, which may act as a modulator on gonadal development in the presence of gonadotropin.

HE EFFECT OF GROWTH HORMONE ON THE LEYDIG CELL RESPONSE TO CHORIONIC GONADOTROPHIN IN BOYS WITH HYPOPITUITARISM

H. E. KULIN 1 , EUGENIUSZ SAMOJLIK 1 , R. SANTEN 1 S. SANTNER 1

1 Division of Endocrinology, Departments of Pediatrics and Medicine, The Milton S. Hershey Medical Center, Pennsylvania State University, Hershey, Pennsylvania 17033

Correspondence: H. E. Kulin, MD, Department of Pediatrics, The Milton S. Hershey Medical Center, Hershey, Pennsylvania 17033, USA.

ABSTRACT

Eleven boys with growth hormone (hGH) deficiency received human chorionic gonadotrophin (hCG) stimulation tests for the assessment of Leydig cell function before, during, and after 1 year of treatment with somatotrophin. Two patients entered puberty during the course of the study protocol. Analysis of the data in nine prepubertal boys revealed an augmentation of testosterone (T) responses to hCG in the presence of hGH. In six of these individuals in whom dihydrotestosterone (DHT) was determined, a similar augmentation in responsiveness of this steroid was found in the presence of hGH. Three prepubertal boys exhibited poor T responses to the basal hCG test with only partial improvement following hGH. In man growth hormone may be an important permissive factor in Leydig cell activity during periods of changing testicular function such as occur in utero or during puberty.

Direct stimulatory effects of insulin-like growth factor-I on Leydig cell steroidogenesis in primary culture

T. Lin, a, b, c, d, , J. Haskellb, c, d, a, N. Vinsonb, c, d, a and L. Terraciob, c, d, a

a Medical and Research Service, WJB Dorn Veterans' Hospital, Columbia, South Carolina 29201, USA

b Department of Medicine University of South Carolina School of Medicine, Columbia, South Carolina 29201, USA

c Department of Pharmacology University of South Carolina School of Medicine, Columbia, South Carolina 29201, USA

d Department of Anatomy University of South Carolina School of Medicine, Columbia, South Carolina 29201, USA

Received 6 May 1986. Available online 08 December 2004.

Abstract

Insulin-like growth factor-I (IGF-I) in concentration as low as 10 ng/ml significantly increased basal testosterone formation and 100 ng/ml of IGF-I increased testosterone production more than two fold in primary cultures of purified mature Leydig cells. IGF-I also markedly potentiated hCG-induced testosterone formation in a dose-dependent manner. Furthermore, IGF-I enhanced 8-bromo cyclic AMP induced steroidogenesis and hCG-stimulated cyclic AMP formation. The binding of 125I-IGF-I to purified Leydig cells was linear with a binding affinity of 0.56 ± 0.07×109 M−1 and a capacity of 167 ± 10.2 fmol/mg protein. Insulin and multiplication-stimulating activity were less potent than IGF-I in competing the binding of 125I-IGF-I to purified Leydig cells. This suggests that Leydig cells contain specific type I IGF receptor and IGF-I could modulate Leydig cell steroidogenesis.

IGF-I, insulin-like growth factor-I; IGF-II, insulin-like growth factor-II; Sm, somatomedin; hCG, human chorionic gonadotropin; DMEM, Dulbecco's modified Eagle medium; F12, Ham's F12 nutrient mixture; BSA, bovine serum albumin; LH, luteinizing hormone; FSH, follicle stimulating hormone; cyclic AMP, adenosine 3′5′-monophosphate


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

hi just an update im still into the protocol i have been taking hcg every other day its been 2 weeks since my last blood test going to have another one tomorrow so will see what the results show im hoping my test has moved up more.

I still feel low libido no morning erections

will let you know when i get my results

Much appreciated


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

im getting my blood test done this thursday so hopefully have the results on friday will keep you informed


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## Old but not out (Sep 8, 2009)

mars1960 said:


> Egr transcription factors, specifically Egr1 and Egr4.
> 
> Also this hasn't been mentioned yet but just because his pituitary is producing LH and FSH it doesn't mean that he is producing these vital transcription factors.


If this is the case Big Vin should think about supplementing his diet with D-aspartic acid whose modality appears to be in increasing transcription factors in both the testes and pituitary


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

I found this on a website

ergo-log.com

Definition: "An ergogenic aid is any substance or phenomenon that enhances performance "

about us

/

contact

/

20.11.2009

Three grams D-aspartic acid raises testosterone levels by a third

Taking a supplement that is based on an amino acid found naturally in the body increases the production of the messenger hormone LH and the muscle building testosterone in the pituitary gland and the testes, by enhancing the cellular production of signal molecules that control the secretion of LH and testosterone.

D-aspartic acid is formed when the enzyme aspartate racemase converts L-aspartic acid into D-aspartic acid in the testes and other glands. This amino acid plays a key role in the manufacture of sperm cells and sex hormone. That's why the Italian pharmaceuticals company Pharmaguida markets the amino acid in products like Dadavit, which is aimed at infertile men.

The researchers gave a couple of dozen men aged between 27 and 37 a daily dose of 3.12 grams D-aspartic acid for twelve days consecutively. Twenty other men were given a placebo. The testosterone level in the subjects that received the supplement had risen by 33 percent after the twelve days, as the table below shows.

The Italians studied the mechanism involved using rats. The rats were given the amino acid in their drinking water. The figure below shows the effects of twelve days of supplement administration on the concentration of the amino acid in the pituitary and the testes of the rats.

In the pituitary gland, D-aspartic acid increased the concentration of cGMP. cGMP is a signal molecule - or a second messenger - that transfers messages in the pituitary cells from other messenger hormones to the DNA. More cGMP means more LH. In the testes D-aspartic acid plays a similar role with the signal molecule cAMP, via which D-aspartic acid raises testosterone secretion.

Source:

Reprod Biol Endocrinol. 2009 Oct 27;7:120.

More:

Three grams D-aspartic acid raises testosterone levels by a third 20.11.2009

Zinc megadose gives 40 percent more free testosterone 14.11.2009

It really works - zinc is a T-booster 13.11.2009

Maca makes cyclists faster and hornier 15.10.2009

Short rest period between sets stimulates anabolic effect only briefly 02.08.2009

Forty percent more testosterone with Ashwagandha 19.07.2009

More testosterone, less cortisol after training with phosphatidylserine 04.06.2009

Calcium raises T-levels in athletes 08.04.2009

Muscles benefit more from testosterone if you rest less between sets 23.03.2009

Power sports increase testosterone production by forty percent 21.01.2009

Combination of selenium and NAC raises testosterone levels 18.01.2009

Mucuna pruriens: more testosterone, more LH, less prolactin 19.11.2008

Astaxanthin supplement raises testosterone level 07.09.2008


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

doesnt amino acids capsules contain aspartic acid? I take at least 10 a day


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## Old but not out (Sep 8, 2009)

No - you specifically need - d-aspartic acid. https://www.primordialperformance.com/store/sodium-d-aspartate-boosts-testosterone-in-men-d-aspartic-acid-effects-testosterone-conversion-factor-1.html


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

old not out been onto that link but it says thery are out of stock any other sites?

i have been docs troday and had my blood taken so hopefully tommmorrow i will have my test results wuill keep you informed


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## xpower (Jul 28, 2009)

http://www.predatornutrition.com/pd-testosterone-conversion-factor-1.cfm :thumbup1:


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

thanks xpower for the link i have been on the site and read this

This makes TCF-1 an essential supplement for men who -

* Have low LH & low testosterone and want to restore normal levels of both

* Have normal LH with low testosterone and want to restore normal testosterone levels

* Have normal LH and normal testosterone and want to maximize production of both

*

but as you know i have high LH so it might not work for me there is nothing wrong with the signals to produce test its the nuts that arent working

any views?


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Supplement hype should leave one self with more questions than answers.

I seriously doubt looking to an over the counter supplement to do what pharmacuitical drugs can do, especially in light of what SERMS are noted to do for secondary hypogonadism.

Sorry, but I call BS on this one.


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

It is now the 30th day of the protocol and i have just recieved my blood results they are as follows

FSH 26 IU/L (1.O-11.0)

LH 8.7 IU/L (1.0-8.0)

HCG 114 IU/L (0.7)

TESTOSTERONE 4.0 nmol/l (10.0-37.0)

SHBG 42 nmol/l (11.71)

my bloods 2 weeks ago showed TEST 3.1 HCG 26 FSH 26 LH 11 SHGB 40

Now using the formulation to calculate free test todays free test shows 9.52% compared to results 2 weeks ago of 7.75% so there is an increase in free test

my test is now showing 4.0 slight increase but still nowhere near within range my LH has dropped but still out of range too high HCG is sky rocket obviously because i have been taking HCG 2500iu every 2 days for the last month

also SHGB has increased slightly

Putting everything into perspective i feel that i am nowhere near the correct range for testosterone and i think i might just need to accept the situation and go straight onto TRT sustanon 250 injections

if i do go onto trt do you recomend me finishing the protocol or carrying it on for the last 15 days

Any views would me much appreciated


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## Huntingground (Jan 10, 2010)

I would keep going Vin, nothing to lose, all to gain if it works.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Wow, talk about slow progress.

But at this rate, me personally I would just go on trt and see how you feel, no sense in putting your self at risk with low androgens.

Never heard of someone not being able to recover before.


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## adsdj (Mar 13, 2010)

Read this thread with interest. I hope you get sorted big vin. Tried to message you but looks like it won't let me yet, perhaps I'm too new here!


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

thanks for all your imput guys especially hacskii i really appreciate it but i have made my decision to go straight to trt .

The doctor wants to start me on trt i asked him what he would be presribing me and he told me that the endo said sustanon 250 every 3 weeks he will start me on this next week

. He will be monitioring me with blood tests to check the levels of test and also said he would periodically do red blood cel count and prostrate checks .

im not even waiting i can get some sustanon 250 right away so im gonna start it tonight and tell the doctor i have already had 1 injection.


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## Baz R (Jun 16, 2010)

Vin would you be able to let us know how you are doing during your trt on this thread mate ?

Good luck mate.


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

yes i forgot to say that i will definitely keep you all regulary informed with my progress on hrt


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## Baz R (Jun 16, 2010)

nice one mate, i might be joining you soon lol.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Yah, 250mg sust every 3 weeks is a bit on the low end of TRT, but if you used some HCG to keep telling the balls to work you will be right about there.

They have a TRT proticol for Nebido-R (testosterone undecanoate) that you go in less for your shots.

This is dosed for one injection for 12 weeks.

Another option is the test cream/gels, they tend to elivate DHT some though.


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## jassdhali (Jul 2, 2008)

hackskii said:


> Yah, 250mg sust every 3 weeks is a bit on the low end of TRT, but if you used some HCG to keep telling the balls to work you will be right about there.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> ...


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## Mars (Aug 25, 2007)

jassdhali said:


> Was just about to say the same.
> 
> All good endo's have listened to their patients and the lows that occur with injecting 250mg every 3 wks and those that are still using sust have moved over to the 100mg amps once every 7-10 days.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

TRT doses in the USA are typically around 100mg testosterone cypionate a week.

Now guys like Swale use HCG day 1 of shot, and days 6 and 7 to bring natty levels up to avoid the drop from day one shot (not in system yet) and days 6 and 7 (test is clearing).

Some have gone as high as 125mg a week of cypionate.

250 of sust every 3 weeks is a bit weak as even cypionate has more mg per mg than sust, so do the math, after 3 weeks you would be on the low end if they drew blood.

Every 2 weeks would be probably a great TRT dose, with adex twice a week .5mg.


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

hackskii my doctor has to prescribe me the trt and the endo has told him to give me sustanon 250 every 3 weeks with endos and doctors being like they are they are not going to increase the dose untill i have my blood work done gain,

what i am going to do is supplement the dose with my own sustanon so im having a shot of sustanon 250 every 2 weeks

i have sustanon 250 by organon im gonna take my first shot now will see how i go on

also what do you think i should do continue the protocol for the last 15 days or just stop taking it

much appreciated


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Ok, check this out, if you double up on your sust and you go in for bloods and you are over upper limits, they will reduce your dose.

Now, if you are slick you can give them certain information to allow them to bump your dose up and I will explain.

Classic symptoms of low testosterone is lethargy, fat gains, loss of muscle, loss of libido, ED, no morning wood, feelings of anxiety, depression, low energy, etc.

If you go in and are in the lower limits and tell the doc that you have problems with keeping and maintaining erections, you feel a bit lethartic, depressed, etc, then he will have to tailor the dose to help you.

My buddy did this and all the doctors start off cautious and dose low due to the freaking stigma of them perscribing steroids.

So, my friend went in and they perscribed him 5mg androgel.

He went back for blood and said that he felt better, but not right, and sex was not that enjoyable but better but not normal feeling.

So, doc put him on 7.5mg androgel and he took it.

Next blood test he did the same thing saying he felt better but not totally 100% and asked the doc if he could try the 10mg androgel.

Doc gave him the androgel and I told him that next test he needs to back off some on the androgel because he probably will show upper end and the doc will cut him back.

He forgot, doc said holly crap, you are above base levels and put him back on 7.5mg

He loved how he felt on 10mg.

He was actually making some decent gains in the gym too while he was dieting.

So, you can see how this works, they will give you the 250mg sust every 3 weeks and you will feel ok, but they wont want to give you more then what falls in range as this would be like giving you steroids.

This stigma is BS as there is such negative publicity associated with steroids and athletes.

They would just the same put you at low end of normal and call it a day, even though your numbers were upper end when you were not shut down.

Only way you can have him do anything is by how you tell him how you feel and the questions he will ask you.

If you work it right you may get him to move the proticol some around, but if you are shooting and he is shooting, and you give blood, and you are over upper normal ranges, he will give you a shot a month and feel he is doing the right thing, at this point you just shot yourself in the foot.

Being on TRT is the perfect blast cruise, never worry about shutdown, and this is what my buddy does, he picked up some dbol and does that as a blast while on the gels, he also picked up some of that trendflow and was using that too with the dbol and his androgel, dude got similar to steroid like gains with low dose dbol and a single pump with the trendflow and the androgel.

I kept telling him to up the dose but he did get stronger.


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## Mars (Aug 25, 2007)

big vin said:


> hackskii my doctor has to prescribe me the trt and the endo has told him to give me sustanon 250 every 3 weeks with *endos and doctors being like they are they are not going to increase the dose untill i have my blood work done gain,*
> 
> what i am going to do is supplement the dose with my own sustanon so im having a shot of sustanon 250 every 2 weeks
> 
> ...


You aren't asking to increase the dose, just spread it out a little, just tell them that by the end of week two you are getting low, this is very common with this outdated protocol.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

True Mars, and a bit on the low end as well.

But with Vin being low so long, even a small amount will make him feel like superman:lol:


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

got this sustanon 250 it says organon on the box anyone come across this is it real or fake just that all sustanon i have had in the past on the bottle its inprinted on the bottle but these that i got have a white label stuck on the bottle any views?


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## BillC (Jun 11, 2009)

The labelled ones are turkish organon, got some myself as my test e was not working/ crap. Does it also have a yellow and red stripe around top, the bottle being brown?


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

soirry i forgot to put the pics on here they are


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

thats exactly right billc yellowand red stripe brown bottle is it real stuff mate ?


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

.


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

hackskii should i still run some nolva clomid etc while i am on this trt ?


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

big vin said:


> hackskii should i still run some nolva clomid etc while i am on this trt ?


No, but on TRT estrogen should be kept in check.

Your elivations in SHBG no doubt was from the nolva anyway, dropping that would be a good idea.

Low dose HCG would be just fine though, low dose DHEA would also be fine, and if you decide to do that then .5mg adex twice a week would probably be a good idea.


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

thank you very much hacskii for taking the time and effort on this post i really appreciate it , none of my docs or endos have shown much interest even at £150 an hour you are a good bloke and so are all the rest who have shown interest

much appreciated


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Thanks man, I appreciate you taking the time to say that.

I just hate to see guys suffer, if I can help only one person, it was all worth it.

I have seen my brother years ago in the worst shape a man can be in, and that was avoidable had I known then what I do know.


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## BillC (Jun 11, 2009)

Pics a bit fuzzy but look same as what I've got. Trust this source as higher up the chain and this is what he got me and is what he's using so should be good to go. Why use your own though when British sus is the best stuff going and is what the prescription will get you.


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## NickR24 (Sep 9, 2009)

been silently watching this thread for weeks now...sorry you couldnt recover vin, but at least now your on trt you will feel like a man again!

this thread is a testament to the fact there are still some very helpful & knowledgeable people on this board, hacks mars & old but not out all should be respected for what you guys done here. :beer:


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

billc my doc has prescribed me the sustanon and he has told me to go into his surgery and book an appintment with the nurse who is going to inject me i just thought i would bang a shot of some of my own sustanon while i waited i been with low test for a year now not waiting anymore


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## Paulo Souza (Jun 19, 2010)

big vin said:


> billc my doc has prescribed me the sustanon and he has told me to go into his surgery and book an appintment with the nurse who is going to inject me i just thought i would bang a shot of some of my own sustanon while i waited i been with low test for a year now not waiting anymore


Big Vin

I know that now its too late since you started with TRT already, but i only saw your thread yesterday.

Hackskii did prescribed a PCT to you to follow at that time, but you did ask about the medical background of that PCT.

So i decided to help you, and put together all the medical background, studies, and sources regarding the PCT Hackskii prescribed you:

http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/steroid-testosterone-information/102444-famous-power-pct-program-dr-michael-scally.html

http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/steroid-testosterone-information/102444-famous-power-pct-program-dr-michael-scally.html

Just click this link... now with that information in hands, the doc will take you seriousoly because its documented by Doctors.

Good look on your TRT bro!


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## Paulo Souza (Jun 19, 2010)

Also if you need a second opinion, you can contact the doctor in his website:

http://www.asih.net/access.htm

He is the author of that PCT Program, Harvard Graduate and specialized in bodybuilding and recovery from long steroids usage.


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## Mars (Aug 25, 2007)

Paulo Souza said:


> *Also if you need a second opinion, you can contact the doctor in his website:*
> 
> http://www.asih.net/access.htm
> 
> *He is the author of that PCT Program, Harvard Graduate and specialized in bodybuilding and recovery from long steroids usage*.


Yes, for a price that puts my solicitors fees to shame  .

Also that study was *uncontrolled *and he had previously been struck off.

Just putting out the full story  .


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## Paulo Souza (Jun 19, 2010)

mars1960 said:


> Yes, for a price that puts my solicitors fees to shame  .
> 
> Also that study was *uncontrolled *and he had previously been struck off.
> 
> Just putting out the full story  .


Yes, i heard mate... but its better than nothing, after all we are playing with our health..

most docs dont bother learning about PCT and steroids in general... and what happen when doctor you prescribe meds for PCT and steroids ? they get struck off, just like Scally... i hope it him make it in the appeal though.


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## Mars (Aug 25, 2007)

Paulo Souza said:


> *Yes, i heard mate... but its better than nothing, after all we are playing with our health..*
> 
> most docs dont bother learning about PCT and steroids in general... and what happen when doctor you prescribe meds for PCT and steroids ? they get struck off, just like Scally... i hope it him make it in the appeal though.


I agree but the point i'm making is that in the other thread that you posted his protocol he said: what you read on the forums about PCT is just anecdotal evidence, well thats exactly what his protocol is, just anecdotal evidence because it was an uncontrolled study  .


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## Paulo Souza (Jun 19, 2010)

mars1960 said:


> I agree but the point i'm making is that in the other thread that you posted his protocol he said: what you read on the forums about PCT is just anecdotal evidence, well thats exactly what his protocol is, just anecdotal evidence because it was an uncontrolled study  .


Yeah you're right brother...

weeee havee louddss of anedoctal evidence, in every forum we see thousands... maybe if people got together and organized some forms to log cycles, pcts, we cold organize these datas with some statistical reference and then have more solid information..

lets make the Steroids Research Group hehe

dreaming is great.. :laugh:

cya mate.


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

Been to the docs this morning he has written me out a presription for sustanon 250 it seems strange getting gear on a presrciption but at least i know its gonna be british and highest pharmecutical grade. My pharmacy have no stock so its been ordered and they said i could picK it up tommorrow then i have an appointment with the nurse who is going to inject me i told my doc i want to do it myself he has told me after the nurse has done the first two injections and i know how to do it i can do it myself , i think i know how to inject i have been doing it for 10 years lol .


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## Dean00 (Jan 25, 2009)

So can you continue to bild muscle on trt?


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

i dont know but its got to be better than the last year of having very low testosterone, i think im going to increase the dose myself


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## jassdhali (Jul 2, 2008)

Dean00 said:


> So can you continue to bild muscle on trt?


TRT is supposed to get your level of testosterone for your body to an acceptable 'normal' level.

So you can build muscle on TRT as originaly your levels were lower than when on TRT. I have gained as I am on TRT, I'm sure a few other ppl have the same experience.

But Big V was doing cycles before so not to sure whether he would gain on TRT on the dose he would be taking, I doubt he would.


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

yeah but i have lost some of my gains that i made when i was using gear , its been a year that i have hd very low test so now on this trt at least i will be in range.

I really want to get back to building muscle so im thinking of adding something to the sustanon 250 that has been prescribed to me in so effect do a course. What do you recommend to go with the sustanon .

I have to go for a blooid test in 6 weeks to see how the trt is going and see what my test levels are if i do supplement the sus and go on a course i realise my test levels will be too high and the doc will wonder why but i can cancel that appointment and go for one in a few months time when i have come off the gear and just carried on with the trt sustanon every 2 weeks then my bloods should be normal.

Any views?


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

6 weeks?

Simple, do a cycle of orals with the sust 250 right now, something like dbol would be fine, some prop in there too would not be bad, just make sure you drop that at the very least 3 days before the test, but orals I would drop the day before.

Last think you need to do is skew the test to show more than you are getting, he then will cut you back to a month....lol


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

ok hacskii my doc is presribing me sustanon 250 every three weeks should i put some of my own sus in if so how much and and how much dianabol and prop should i use and also should i do some pct if so how much

p.s i do realise that im gonna be naturally shut down indefinitely while im on trt

Much appreciated


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Well, here is the deal, if any of that sust you shot is in your system he wont be able to guage where you are at blood wise.

So, propionate is ok, just stop about 4 days or so before your blood test.

Orals are fine, stop 2 days before your test to be sure it wont skew your results.

Stick to short esters or orals, they clear faster so you can be higher right up to the start of your test but not skew your test results.

If you are on the low end after 3 weeks doctor may allow you to come in earlier than 3 weeks, but if you are off the chart he will have you come once a month.


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

just been to the pharmacy and got my gear on prescription british made lol


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## Dean00 (Jan 25, 2009)

Nice one lol

must feel good getting free gear and legally aswell :lol:


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

As it sits on top of the BMW emblem:lol:

Bastard, must be nice......


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

as you know im now on trt sustanon 250 one shot eveery 3 weeks but im looking to supplement it and to do a course then drop it before my blood test hacskii i cant get hold of any dianabol but i have got some oxybol 50mg from pro.chem.laboratories anyone heard of them and are they any good and what dosages should i be taking i have put on a picture, also i have my own sustanon and also decca what you recommend me to take as a course

much appreciated


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## t hall gym (Sep 26, 2007)

iv used those oxys .the pills themselves arent very well made the ones i had were a bit crumbly had a logo on the pills but no sure what its meant to be.....i just checked iv still got about 20 left in the tub im sure they were pretty crap but really cant remember.sorry not much help


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

theres no logo on the pills they are just plain pink and round


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

the guy who i got the oxybol 50mg said they are nap 50's and assure me they are a good oral any views anyone?


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## BillC (Jun 11, 2009)

Vin, I think you are being very foolish messing about mate. You've had low test for a year, surely 6 weeks of normal levels will be a novelty and nice enough so why not wait until you've had the first bloods done?


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## Baz R (Jun 16, 2010)

I agree with Bill Vin, You might make gains just from your prescribed trt anyway mate.


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

i appreciate what you are saying .

anyone with anymore views? what if i just add some decca?


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## Huntingground (Jan 10, 2010)

Leave the deca. Stick to test. If you really want to, then test prop and orals only. Defo no deca.


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## t hall gym (Sep 26, 2007)

yeah same as mine pink,line down the middle except mine has some sort of pattern on the other side.the tub has a lion hologram on it.no saying there no good just cant think why i didnt finish them. mine over a year old


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## mal (Dec 31, 2009)

why dont you get on the gh vin.


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

t hall gym yeah exactly thery have lion logo on and pink with split down middle


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

ok will leave the decca i can get some dianabol so maybe just add that, im gonna swerve the growth hormone for now


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## fat-2-thi-2-mus (Mar 8, 2010)

deff no deca!!! stays in your system for ages!!! and shut down will be bad!


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

im shut down anyway and cant recover thats why im on trt but i appreciate what you are saying and will not do decca as i dont want anything that stays in my system


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## hilly (Jan 19, 2008)

why not see how hrt makes you feel first before you start dcking about with it


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

Hilly i appreciate what you are saying but i know that sustanon 250 every 3 weeks is only going to put me within range , i want to build some muscle my friend .

I think im gonna do what hacskii says and add some dianobol and test propianate then drop it like he says before my i have my blood test


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## Baz R (Jun 16, 2010)

Vin you can still build muscle when in normal range mate.


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

well im getting different opinions because some are saying i cant build muscle with normal range.


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## hilly (Jan 19, 2008)

big vin said:


> Hilly i appreciate what you are saying but i know that sustanon 250 every 3 weeks is only going to put me within range , i want to build some muscle my friend .
> 
> I think im gonna do what hacskii says and add some dianobol and test propianate then drop it like he says before my i have my blood test


im all for you cycling mate and gaining muscle however is it not best to wait until you and the doc get ure HRT spot on and perfect so you have baselines before you start sending it all over the place


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## Baz R (Jun 16, 2010)

Vin if you couldnt build muscle whilst being in normal range then no one would be able to build muscle without gear.


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

Hilly i know what you are saying but i want to cycle now trt is is usually set at sustanon 250 every 3 weeks , can drop the dianobol and test prop just before my blood test or i can even just not turn up for my blood test then they will have to re-book me an appointment and it will be a ggod few weeks before they can see me again .

my endo actually told me to start the trt 2 months ago and he was gonna see me in 3 months time to check my blood levels thats the appointment i have in 6 weeks time i didnt start the trt before because i was trying the protocol to get my natural test back but it didnt work.


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

baz r i realise what you are saying but i want some good gains


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## Terrawatt (May 22, 2010)

Baz R said:


> Vin if you couldnt build muscle whilst being in normal range then no one would be able to build muscle without gear.


I'm glad someone said it


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

ok guys i appreciate all your views im just gonna do the trt that the doctor has put me on and not take anything else , as you say best not to mess up things and when i go for my blood test in 6 weeks the doctor can evaluate it.

thanks a lot again guys you are a great bunch .


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## Baz R (Jun 16, 2010)

Good LucK Vin mate


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## Lois_Lane (Jul 21, 2009)

Of course you will build muscle. You have just gone for a long while with sub normal test levels so now with the increase via hrt you will easily gain muscle.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

big vin said:


> i appreciate what you are saying .
> 
> anyone with anymore views? what if i just add some decca?


Already said before deca is not your friend here, just wait on this one.



hilly said:


> im all for you cycling mate and gaining muscle however is it not best to wait until you and the doc get ure HRT spot on and perfect so you have baselines before you start sending it all over the place


Very sensible post.

Let the doctors tweak your TRT, lets not get carried away here, do the math, you are low in androgens and carry alot of muscle, TRT will help support your muscle and give you homeostasis.

Tweaking things now is ok but not to skew your tests.

Remember orals will compromise lipid profiles, skew liver profiles, even blood pressure readings.

If muscle means more now than normality then go for it.

But trying to fool blood tests is not cool right now.

Later on is a mute point as you are on TRT.

Let the doctors do their job, then you can tweak later, no rush right now.


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

thanks again all you guys for your advice .

So how long does sustanon 250 take to start having an effect how long after i first inject?

when will i see a rise in my libido which is vey low ?

Much appreciated.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Pretty quick with the propionate in the mix, but low dose.


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

thanks hacskii my friend


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

someone mentioned growth hormone just a thought but would taking growth hormone affect my test and blood results in any way ?


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

???


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## stonecoldzero (Aug 30, 2009)

To the best of my knowledge, using hgh will not skew the blood tests they do for trt.

I'm 46 and use 1-2iu hgh e/d and my bloods haven't been affected. However, there does appear to be a growing body of evidence the T and hgh used together have a positive synergistic effect on each other ie they increase the efficacy of one another.

Particularly because I'm on prescribed TRT, I've followed this thread since it started. One thing stands out to me ..........

1ml Sus250 e3w will leave you feeling like $hit at some time towards the end of that period. That's my experience and as my endo put it "sustanon is an awful medication for trt".

He also told me that the NHS is switching to Nebido / Test Undec across the board and that Sus is being phased out. I've been on Nebido for a good few months now and love the stuff.

Why? No ups and downs at all, plus once my initial bloods had been done after the first 12 weeks, in which I had 3 jabs, I've been able to work out how much "extra trt" I want to add on. Plus, depending on your bloods, you may get the 1000mg (4ml) shot every 8- 12 weeks.

Finally, I've found that I'm most comfortable on approx 250mg pw. Having had virtually no endogenous T when this started out (1nmol/ltr), I've felt the best on this. Some say 100mg pw is a correct trt dose - they're wrong ... it depends. TREAT SYMPTOMS NOT NUMBERS!

I also use adex and hcg as per the USA doctors protocols.

If you have any trt type questions, feel free to ask. I've spent a ridiculous amount of time reading up on this stuff and have also discussed all aspects in detail with my endo (a young guy) with blood labs done for real-world evidence - be a shame to waste it! 

scz


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

I do notice more night time erections using GHRP-2 at night and also when I do a few shots a day my face is more greasy.

What that means im not sure but I do feel it is positive.


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

stonecoldzero i appreciate your interest and thank you for having the time to respond can i ask you some questions..are you on trt for long term?

my bloods were as low as yours 1nml/l which increased to 3.2 after some hcg i have dropped the hcg so what do you expect my test level to be when i go for my bloods in 6 weeks time bearing in mind i will have had 2 shots of sus 250 one every three weeks?

how long after starting the trt did you notice some difference increase in libido etc?

how could i persuade my doctor to switch me to nebido like you are on?

what can i realistically expect as regards to muscle gains and libido etc on my current trt protocol?

i really would really appreciate your answers as you are the person to assk as you have the experience

much appreciated


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## thevoice (May 10, 2007)

stonecoldzero - did you have any blood readings taken inbetween injections on Nebido - I too have heard good things about this treatment but would love to know what level test is at right before next injectionj is due.


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

can i ask if anyone here is on trt and what meds and dosages are you on and how are you feeling with it ...

Much appreciated


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## Old but not out (Sep 8, 2009)

big vin said:


> can i ask if anyone here is on trt and what meds and dosages are you on and how are you feeling with it ...
> 
> Much appreciated


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## Old but not out (Sep 8, 2009)

Big Vin - sorry to hear that all has not worked out - but on the bright side you'll be strong for a lot, lot longer this way!

If you intend to supplement your TRT I would do it with a short acting ester - otherwise if you are not careful and very good at calculating half life's etc then your blood test results will show too high testosterone levels and your Drs may end up cutting your dose back.

Initially you may want to supplement with test prop - this way you can stop dosing 3 days before your blood tests and ensure they are not high. When your blood tests become more infrequent you can dose with longer esters and switch to prop for the 2 - 3 weeks prior to your tests.

I think its been stated here by a number already but hCG to keep testes working and also an AI to control estrogen are essential to ensure that treatment is successful and does as it should. You will be a lucky man to get this from your endo so its probably self prescription yourself again

The link below is an excellent "beginners" guide to TRT mate and I would read - you may even want to print out and give to your endo - it may help in your quest for hCG and AI

http://tnation.tmuscle.com/free_online_forum/sports_training_performance_bodybuilding_trt/trt_protocol_for_injections

All the best mate :thumb:



big vin said:


> yeah but i have lost some of my gains that i made when i was using gear , its been a year that i have hd very low test so now on this trt at least i will be in range.
> 
> I really want to get back to building muscle so im thinking of adding something to the sustanon 250 that has been prescribed to me in so effect do a course. What do you recommend to go with the sustanon .
> 
> ...


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Old, remember HCG works even in the presence of androgens, so beings his TRT dose is a bit on the low side, if he supplements HCG with his TRT he may have elivated androgen levels and the doc might cut back on his dose.

My buddy was doubling up with his cream, I told him to not do that around his testing times, the doc did bloods and bang, cut back his dose.

TRT doctors with the exception of a few like to keep you in the lower mid range.


----------



## Old but not out (Sep 8, 2009)

hackskii said:


> Old, remember HCG works even in the presence of androgens, so beings his TRT dose is a bit on the low side, if he supplements HCG with his TRT he may have elivated androgen levels and the doc might cut back on his dose.
> 
> My buddy was doubling up with his cream, I told him to not do that around his testing times, the doc did bloods and bang, cut back his dose.
> 
> TRT doctors with the exception of a few like to keep you in the lower mid range.


Good point - should stop his hCG dose in week prior to test to avoid this


----------



## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

im taking everything on board your views are invaluable i will keep you informed with my next bllod test result im just sticking to the trt prescribed untill my blood test


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## stonecoldzero (Aug 30, 2009)

Hi Vin -

Yes, I'm on trt for the long-term ..... a "lifer", if you will. 

Couldn't possibly guesstimate what you levels might be after a couple of Sus jabs 6 weeks later. However, the results will give you an idea of how much to "top up" if and / or when you decide to do it. I needed to.

However, am getting some blood results back in 2 days so will have a better idea of the amount of T the nebido is providing (stayed "clean" for the tests).

Noticed differences in libido etc almost immediately. I started my own trt with 250ml Sus e8d when I found out my T results (good idea since I waited about 5 months to see an endo!). Hadn't had a stiffy for months but woke up with a bone on the next morning after first shot. Some reckon it was psychological but I disagree .... I WAS ASLEEP!

Libido took a while longer - maybe 6 weeks til fully restored.

How to get your doc to switch to Nebido? Just ask - I was told they try the gel first (I didn't like the aggravation so I lied and said it gave me a rash) then nebido.

As for gains? Wouldn't really expect much on 250 e3w.

I do approx 250 mg T per week - which factors in the nebido. Like I said, I'll have a better idea of my levels etc on Weds. Will let you know. 

Be lucky,

scz



big vin said:


> stonecoldzero i appreciate your interest and thank you for having the time to respond can i ask you some questions..are you on trt for long term?
> 
> my bloods were as low as yours 1nml/l which increased to 3.2 after some hcg i have dropped the hcg so what do you expect my test level to be when i go for my bloods in 6 weeks time bearing in mind i will have had 2 shots of sus 250 one every three weeks?
> 
> ...


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

thanks for your reply stonecold zero , can i ask why you are on trt was it same reason as mine ?

much appreciated


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## Terrawatt (May 22, 2010)

Hey guys,

With all this TRT, does anyone know this effect on Cholesterol ratios long term.

ie .. Killing off the HDL and increasing LDL.

How do you get round this ?


----------



## Old but not out (Sep 8, 2009)

Terrawatt said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> With all this TRT, does anyone know this effect on Cholesterol ratios long term.
> 
> ...


The impact will be individual and also dependant upon the dose used during TRT. A dose that keeps you within "normal" values for testosterone should not have a negative impact and may in individuals who have been low in testosterone for a period improve ratios.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

If you are low on testosterone you will have compromised lipids, if you do cycles especially with orals you will have compromised lipids as well.

Too high, or too low, both will effect lipids unfavorabily.


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## Baz R (Jun 16, 2010)

Any update Vin mate??????????


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## Musashi (Oct 21, 2009)

stonecoldzero said:


> To the best of my knowledge, using hgh will not skew the blood tests they do for trt.
> 
> I'm 46 and use 1-2iu hgh e/d and my bloods haven't been affected. However, there does appear to be a growing body of evidence the T and hgh used together have a positive synergistic effect on each other ie they increase the efficacy of one another.
> 
> ...


Brilliant post SCZ!

I'm also on prescribed TRT and using Testogel.

You say you are on Nebido - what regime has the Endo/GP put you on please? Standard 12 weeks or are you dividing the dose up? (Is that 1000mg per month in the single surgery jab?)

Also what are your E2 levels - did you self adjust with Adex based on the results?

ATB


----------



## Musashi (Oct 21, 2009)

big vin said:


> can i ask if anyone here is on trt and what meds and dosages are you on and how are you feeling with it ...
> 
> Much appreciated


x1 Sachet of Testogel per day.

No 'huge' improvement in mood, energy or strength however my libido is 'improved'.

Currently I don't use any other products such as HCG or Adex - this 'may' change in the future when my E2 levels results come back.

I'm in a different situation to you with my prescribed TRT hence the lack of ancillary drugs.

Good luck mate.


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

hi guys im here with an update i have now been on my trt for just over a five weeks and have had 2 injections so far had my last one last week im due another one next week i have just had by bood tests done yesterday and got my results today

TESTOSTERONE 8.4 nmol/l (10.0-37.0)

FSH 17 (1.0-11.0)

LH 6.2 (1.0-8.0)

SHGB 42 (11-71)

as you can see my testosterone has risen but its still below range

these are my results before i started the trt

FSH 26 IU/L (1.O-11.0)

LH 8.7 IU/L (1.0-8.0)

HCG 114 IU/L (0.7)

TESTOSTERONE 4.0 nmol/l (10.0-37.0)

SHBG 42 nmol/l (11.71)

also i just had my oestradiol done it was 88 (22-162}

i am going to see my endo who is gonna have my blood results and im gonna see what he has to say i want him to increase my dose do you think he will.

my libido has increased but still think it shouls be higher ,also what i was very worried about wass the asbsence of any ejaculate i now have some not as much as i should but i have some now lol

please can i have your views

Much appreciated


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

And what is really wild is your FSH is above range and your LH is upper end of normal yet you are on TRT.

WOW

Not to mention you are still low.

Here is what I would do big guy, talk to the doctor and suggest your libido is low and you dont get alot of morning wood, suggest you feel better, and thank him for putting you on TRT yet you just dont feel like you feel you should, you still have mild lethargy.

Saying this, he may bump your dose to put you in range.

He has the authority to do so.


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

sorry i my pc crashed half way through thats why i have written this again

hi guys im here with an update i have now been on my trt for just over a five weeks and have had 2 injections so far had my last one last week im due another one next week i have just had by bood tests done yesterday and got my results today

TESTOSTERONE 8.4 nmol/l (10.0-37.0)

FSH 17 (1.0-11.0)

LH 6.2 (1.0-8.0)

SHGB 42 (11-71)

as you can see my testosterone has risen but its still below range

these are my results before i started the trt

FSH 26 IU/L (1.O-11.0)

LH 8.7 IU/L (1.0-8.0)

HCG 114 IU/L (0.7)

TESTOSTERONE 4.0 nmol/l (10.0-37.0)

SHBG 42 nmol/l (11.71)

also i just had my oestradiol done it was 88 (22-162}

i am going to see my endo tomorrow who is gonna have my blood results and im gonna see what he has to say i want him to increase my dose do you think he will.

my libido has increased but still think it shouls be higher ,also what i was very worried about was the asbsence of any ejaculate i now have some not as much as i should but i have some now lol im also getting some morning wood so improvement there too

please can i have your views

Much appreciated


----------



## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

ok hackskii i will definitely do that when i see my endo tomorrow but im worried he might say that the sustanon has not kicked in yet can you give me an answer i can give him if he tells me that do you think its kicked in bearing in mind i started it 5 weeks ago


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Well, it will take some time getting those longer esters up to speed, but you are still producing LH so your own natty test is still trying to do something.


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

can you explain further mate


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

found this on a website

http://www.mens-hormonal-health.com/normal-testosterone-levels.html

as you can see my test levels should be 23 as im 43 years old

im gonna show this link to my endo and tell him tio read this bit in particular:

Depending on the lab ranges your doctor uses, the typical male testosterone level is between 250ng/dl to 850 ng/dl.

As you can imagine these ranges are not set for a virile, high quality of life. They are a cross section of men aged 20 to 100. Many of them are sick and not healthy.

So when you get you get your blood work back and your doctor says your testosterone levels are "normal" at 275 ng/dl, you can tell him where to go. Politely of course. 

Your doctor may say you are not a candidate for testosterone replacement due to these "normal levels".

If you kindly talk about the reference ranges and remind him you have the testosterone levels of a sick 90 year old, maybe he/she will come around.

Even then... you may be better off talking about your symptoms of low testosterone like fatigue, loss of sex drive, foggy headedness, etc... Tell him your job is suffering and you may get fired, or your wife/girlfriend is about to leave you due to libido or money problems.

Doctors will usually come around once you explain the seriousness of your case. And if they don't come around? Shop around. You'll eventually find a doctor that suits your needs. It's not worth it in the short or long term to ignore your low testosterone levels.


----------



## wes (May 28, 2006)

I went throught the whole spectrum of emotions reading this thread, stopped just before my head exploded.  the evolution of posting.

Vin did you do the 45 day pct or just just go staright into the trt??


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

i did the 45 day pct no joy


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

big vin said:


> can you explain further mate


Yes I can.

Typically the amounts of testosterone are broken up by diffrent esters for sustanon, this is to allow for more even blood levels.

Example (sustanon):

Testosterone Propionate 30mg,

Testosterone Phenylpropionate 60mg,

Testosterone Iscaproate 60mg,

Testosterone Decanoate 100mg

This is 250mg of testosterone, but some of that is the weight of the ester so it actually is less then 250mg per shot.

Prop gets in pretty quick and is in and out in about 3 days probably less due to only being 30mg.

But the long ester decanoate would take some time to get rolling in your blood, but once it comes up to speed then you would know where you are at.

Also remember you are getting some stimulation of your own natty test due to LH being sent to the nuts, this probably is because you are not within range and are a bit low so the pituitary is still trying to bring up your values.

Once you become within range LH and FSH probably no doubt will lower and over time will be below base values.

Basicly your body is still trying to make up for the loss of testosterone being at the lower end.

@ 1000mg of testosterone undeconate guys did not drop below low end of normal after 6 weeks administration.


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

so hackskii are you saying that my test levels will rise some more while on the same dosage of sustanon 250 every three weeks considering that i have been on the trt for 5 weeks now and have had two injections so far .


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## Old but not out (Sep 8, 2009)

In my opinion 1 x 250mg of sust every third week will not SUSTAIN the levels you want to function properly. You need to be injecting every week at around 100-150mg - maybe a little more - depending on how you feel. Looking at your e levels you will alos need an AI - as test rises so will these and you will feel like [email protected] not matter what you test gets to


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

I feel that your levels of LH and FSH appear to suggest that you are not being dosed high enough.

Your body sees this and is trying to adjust but it cant as your nuts are not firing on all cylinders.

250 every 3 weeks is a joke, in the states guys are on 100mg cypionate every week and that mg per ml is actually higher than sustanon, not to mention that equates to 300mg over 3 weeks not 250mg.

But wait till you go back and talk to him, suggest you are still just not right, at this point he may bump that up to every 2 weeks and that would put you right where you need to be.

An AI would be a good idea too, something like .5 adex twice a week, that is a typical dose for TRT in the states for estrogen management.


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

thanks for your imput guys , i have just got back from the endo and i told him what you told me to say hackskii he asked me how i was feeling i told him i felt slightly better but still had low libido i also said i was having no morning wood when he asked , he has now increased my dose sustanon 250 every two weeks like you said he would ,

I am having anotherr blood test in 4 weeks time he told me to have it just before my injection date is due so we will see how we go from there


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Nice, that will put you right where you need to be.

Once estrogen is in the sweet spot, you should feel awesome.


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

thanks again hackskii i listen to what you are saying about my estrogen levels but they are actually lower than the were a few months ago as my estrogen level was 132 then and now its 88.

Iam greatfull of the info you gave me about the different esters in the sustanon and the prop being in and out in 3 days i let him know that i had knoweledge and he wasnt going to fob me off ,

thanks again much appreciated


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Yah, no worries, 250 every two weeks will be perfect.

Once he dials you in, then you can go on a little blast cycle.


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

hi guys just an update as you know im on trt was having a shot of sustanon 250 every 3 weeks i have convinced my endo to increaase the dose to every 2 weeks which he has done i have just had some more blood work done this is what it is while im on sus 250 every 2 weeks as follows:

TESTOSTERONE 12.9 nmol/l (10.0-37.0)

SHGB 34 (11-71)

what do you guys think as its in range now but on the low end when i was having it every 3 weeks the blood results weere as follows

TESTOSTERONE 8.4 nmol/l (10.0-37.0)

SHGB 42 (11-71)

as you can see my testosterone has risen and my shgb has lowered giving me a higher free test

do you think my test should be higher and how can i get my doc to increase it or should i be content would appreciate your views as always

much appreciated guys


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## crazypaver1 (Nov 23, 2008)

hope it works out for you mate


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## Terrawatt (May 22, 2010)

big vin said:


> hi guys just an update as you know im on trt was having a shot of sustanon 250 every 3 weeks i have convinced my endo to increaase the dose to every 2 weeks which he has done i have just had some more blood work done this is what it is while im on sus 250 every 2 weeks as follows:
> 
> TESTOSTERONE 12.9 nmol/l (10.0-37.0)
> 
> ...


AS you have said, it's still on the low end of normal range. My score was 12 before any aas at the age of 34. I'm now 37 and on second cycle. Prior to starting this second cycle I was 11. This definately explains my feelings of being a little too depressed from time to time. I know I'm going TRT at some stage.

IMO it could quite easily be higher, but it depends on your endo. Still within normal range, but you could play the game a little more perhaps.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Looks good to me big guy.

I would keep it as it is and toss in adex @ .5mg twice a week.

That will bring down SHBG some and probably make you just perfect.

Now you can blast and cruise but make sure when they draw blood your own mix is out of the mix or they *WILL* lower your dose back down to 3 weeks.


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

thanks again guys for your imput its invaluable if you use the formula to calculate free test free androgen index i.e divide testosterone by shgb then multiply by 100 im actually showing 37.6 almost double then when i was on every three weeks jabs so thats good and its free test that matters by the way im 43 i see what you are saying hackskii i could do a sahort blast im not booked in for any more blood teasts for a few months , i might just blag my doc as im seeing him tommorow see if i can get him to increase it a bit more lol

much appreciatede guys


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

I dont think he will actually.

But, you can try.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Anastrozole is eliminated slowly with a plasma elimination half-life of approximately 50 hours in postmenopausal women.


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

hi guys as you know im on doctors prescribed trt sus 250 every 2 weeks im now thinking of going on a course i do not need to see my endo for blood tests for another 4 months what do you recommend i take to go with my trt im currently on a bit of a diet eating only clean and doing fasting cardio what do you recommend to give me a lean look

thanks guys


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## mal (Dec 31, 2009)

ye ,do 400mg ed of dnp mate for 4 weeks,and 1.5 grams of tren

for 6 and a shot of winny eod,youl look the bollocks.


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

whats dnp mate thanks


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## chickentuna (Apr 13, 2009)

DNP is a fat burner it will kill you... *seriously *

U suggest you dont touch it dude.

:beer:


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## chickentuna (Apr 13, 2009)

My suggestion for a course would be to go on short acting esters such as...

*test prop/ tren ace* or something similar dosage depends on yourself really what was the dosage of your last course


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

my last course was 18 months ago of sus and decca


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

i dont need any fat burners i train intense watch my diet and i do 50 mins cardio on empty stomach every morning


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

You can cycle anything you want, just use faster esters at the end, you seriously dont want those showing in your blood work or they will reduce your dose.

Orals probably would show elivations in cholesterol and this may trigger them to drop your dose as well, due to testosterone being too high or too low can affect lipids in a negative way.

NPP or tren would be great, perhaps a bit of mast in there, that makes for a nice synergestic cycle.


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

thanks hackskii mate i dont need to see my endo for a while and i can also postpone my appointment in 4 months so i will have plenty of time to let the meds get out my system so what would you advise mate as a nice 2 month cycle bearing in mind im dieting


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## chickentuna (Apr 13, 2009)

8 weeks is too short imo i'd go 12 minimum and with your time frame personally


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## chickentuna (Apr 13, 2009)

big vin said:


> my last course was 18 months ago of sus and decca


how much sus and deca each week?


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

i did 2ml sus and 3ml decca but that was nearlt 2 years ago since a course


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## chickentuna (Apr 13, 2009)

ok... how many mg per ml for each?

saying 2ml isn't really telling us how much as each brand can be dosed different


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

i did 200mg decca durabolin 2ml a week and sustanon250 2ml a week


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## chickentuna (Apr 13, 2009)

in my opinion not silly dose's to be honest.

maybes for for test/tren combo this time??

you could use long esters say *test cyp *and *tren eth *.

change esters near the end to say test prop and tren ace for your ast 4-5weeks letting the long ester gear get out of your system meaning you can run closer to when you go to see the docs?

i would say go for either 500mg of test and 200mg of tren pw or if you want to up the dose 750mg of test and 400mg of tren max as tren has some nasty sides like insomnia, night sweats etc

a lot of people seam to have reported tren to be good for loosing bodyfat also.


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

ok thanks mate will bear everything in mind


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## chickentuna (Apr 13, 2009)

big vin said:


> ok thanks mate will bear everything in mind


ok cool hackskii really is a fountain of knowledge you really wont go wrong following his advice .

good luck

:thumbup1:


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

chickentuna said:


> 8 weeks is too short imo i'd go 12 minimum and with your time frame personally


Test cycles are nice for 8 weeks, I get good gains in that time, they tend to not work as well for me over about 10 weeks time.

Remember Vin, you were low androgen for a very long time, even dosing above your TRT @ 500mg a week would make some impressive gains.

Even low dose tren @ 200mg a week would work nice with some Test in there.

I like deca and due to you not worrying about shutdown now, you can run that but I would wait as the long ester in there might skew the test and doc might lower your dose.

Test E and C is good for now, then you can drop to propionate at the end.

I bet money you will make fantastic gains given you being low for so long.


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

thanks again for your input guys and thanks hacskii thanks for your reply as you answered my question and took into account my past history which you have observed i really appreciate that mate


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## leenco12 (Sep 15, 2010)

NickR24 said:


> Have fun mars... :lol:


to all the lads who blast cruise on here just because it's trendy take note this is what happens,

to the op does your doc know about your gear use? there is no way a doctor is going to prescribe/suggest female anti cancer meds for your low test (nolva etc)

__________________

watch movies online


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

i have been under endo supervision for over a year of course he knows my previous steroid use and he knows thats what has shut me down thats why he has put me on trt for life


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

hackskii can you recommend me a nice course then tell me what and how much to take so i can order some but im not familiar with abbreviated terms so can you be specific mate

much appreciated


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

I would consider tren, mast and test myself, fantastic synergy, you can probably just do tren and test.

Right now you probably will explode on any cycle due to your levels being low for so long.


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## Musashi (Oct 21, 2009)

big vin said:


> hackskii can you recommend me *a nice course then tell me what and how much to take so i can order some* but im not familiar with abbreviated terms so can you be specific mate
> 
> much appreciated


In all honesty and in my (limited) experience I would really just let your TRT run for a good few months so you are able to gauge what your levels stabilise at, then base that against how you feel.

Serum levels can 'bounce' about a fair bit with 'ghost' results in the early stages of TRT.

Just my opinion (which may of course be bollox) but early doors I would want to stabilise before introducing a blast.

Good luck in whatever you decide mate.


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

thanks for your advice guys what dosages do you recommend hacskii?


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Oh, something like 500mg test E, with 300mg tren and see how you feel on that.

Or just the 500 test E, with your TRT you will be over 600mg EW, that should allow for some nice gains.


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

is that dosages for a week should i take them on the same days together and for how many weeks ?


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

You can bang that in one shot, or split it up, makes no diffrence really, blood levels will be off the chart.

I would take a mild AI though.

I would leave a month before clearing and or even a bit more just in case lipids are compromised or even a little bit of gear is left.

You do not want to skew your test results.

5 weeks before your test stop everything, except run the AI about a week or so before your bloods, maybe 2 weeks.


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

hacskii or anyone else sorry for sounding stupid but what is 500mg is that half a ml do the bottles come in 10ml and same as tren 300mg is that 1/3 of a ml ??? just need to order the stuff not sure what amounts i should be ordering for my course what you have sduggested 500mg test e and 300mg tren


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Mg per ml will vary with diffrent labs.

Generally test cyp or prop comes in 250mg per ml amps or 10ml reuse vials.


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

so the test ethanate that you suggested is test ethanate 250 so you saying take two i ml amps a week and what about trenbolone how much of that should i order ?

much appreciated


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## chickentuna (Apr 13, 2009)

have a look at what your buying like previous post stated it will way how many mg of gear is in each ml

figure out what length course your running and at what doses for exampe

test 500mg pw

tren 300mg pw

course of 8 weeks

amount required

4g of test

2.4g of tren

then look at your gear dosage say..

your test is 250mg per ml

youll need 20ml of test (2vials or 20amps)

your tren is 200mg per ml

youll need 12ml of tren (2vials or 20amps)

youll have tren left for next cycle as you can usually only buy it in 10ml vials or packs of 10 amps

think my math is right...


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

thanks a lot for that chickentuna i understand now but my supplier has no test e but he has tren can you recommend anything else instead of test e and bear in mind im on sustanon 250 every 2 weeks as trt maybe i could get some more sustanon i dont know what you think guys and i want something thats low on water retention or very low water retention


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

i take it i should be getting trenbolone enanthate as this is injected every week as opposed to acetate thast needs to be injected every 2 days is that right ?


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## chickentuna (Apr 13, 2009)

test E

Tren E

would be fine

sus would also be fine


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

i cant get any test e so could sustanon go with the tren e if so how much do you think a week im already on sustanon 250 i ml every 2 weeks as my trt


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

No sust mate, that long ester can skew your test results.

Can you get cypionate?

I dont think I would play with the sust unless you gave it a big jab now and let the long esters drop off before your blood test.


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

yeah i can get test cypionate so do you recommend that to go with the tren??


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

cyp is killer, just about the same as enanthate, clearance time is just a couple of days max diffrence.

Very similar.

I like both enathate, and cypionate.

Yah, get that.


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

so do you reccomend same dosage 500mg a week to go with 300mg of trenbolone is that right mate?


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

i have read cypionate can lead to high water retention i want something for dieting


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Yah, I would not go any higher than that as you are already on 125 a week, so that will be 925mg a week, being low androgen like you were, bet you explode on that.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

big vin said:


> i have read cypionate can lead to high water retention i want something for dieting


no more than enanthate or sustanon for that matter.


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

ok so just to clarify 500mg of cypionate and 300mg of trenbolone a week is that right?and did you mention AI what is AI and how much of that would i need and when should i take that sorry for all the questions but i have been ignorant in the past dont want to do that again

much appreciated


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## chickentuna (Apr 13, 2009)

If your dieting Test Prop + Tren A would be better

if you keep your diet right thought enath/cyp/sus would be ok though...

Have you used tren before? if not do a search and read up on the side effects especially 'tren cough'


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

im confused now lol im not dieting for a competition as such but im doing cardio and im on a clean food diet i just want a good course that wont hold much water and can aid to fat loss so can someone reccomend a good course

thanks guys


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## chickentuna (Apr 13, 2009)

just stick with cyp and tren youll be fine!


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

ok cool mate


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## TH0R (Aug 15, 2007)

gotta be honest, if you haven't run Tren before I don't think now would be the best time

to start it, lot of potential sides with Tren, and with your past experiences I'd leave it for

a few cycles.

I'd recommend Test & Deca mate, I think you'll grow like a weed on anything tbh


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

i been reading about tren and i tend to agree with you when you say test do you mean sustanon?


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## JayS (Sep 9, 2010)

Vin how are you feeling on trt bro ?

any lift in mood and energy etc ?


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

i have never really been low on energy even when i was very low on test i think its all in the mind having lowe energy so energy levels same but mood and lbido definitely increased so all is good


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

i have not been on any gear for nearly 2 years now and im currently on trt sustanon 250 every 2 weeks can someone suggest a course i can do bearing in mind i have to see my endo in 3 months so want something to take for 8-10 weeks that will be out my system in 3 months or so please give me alternatives as i can not get acces to all steroids

much appreciated .


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## smartin (Aug 28, 2010)

Hey guys, i got really interested in this thread until i could take no more of "big vin" and decided to stop reading and move to the last page,,,,low and behold MORE BIG VIN....no hard feelings vin.

I dont take gear a lot but when i do its deca maybe once a year to also aid in niggly injuries as well as a wee boost. I have never run pct afterwards as i believed that 2ml for 8wks wouldnt surpress?. Am i wrong here


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

It depends, it may, or it may not.


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

smartin said:


> Hey guys, i got really interested in this thread until i could take no more of "big vin" and decided to stop reading and move to the last page,,,,low and behold MORE BIG VIN....no hard feelings vin.
> 
> I dont take gear a lot but when i do its deca maybe once a year to also aid in niggly injuries as well as a wee boost. I have never run pct afterwards as i believed that 2ml for 8wks wouldnt surpress?. Am i wrong here


no offence taken i have found this site really helpful with

http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/


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## TitanBiceps (Sep 18, 2010)

wow man if i ever had any will in trying to run a cycle then i just lost it now.

sounds like you just one of these dudes shubing it in just for the hell of it

feeling bad for ya


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

TitanBiceps said:


> wow man if i ever had any will in trying to run a cycle then i just lost it now.
> 
> sounds like you just one of these dudes shubing it in just for the hell of it
> 
> feeling bad for ya


what do you mean ? why you feeling bad for me ? i have not had a course for two years was just asking for some advice


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## smartin (Aug 28, 2010)

hackskii said:


> It depends, it may, or it may not.


 Hackskii, im a newbi here but i have already found that your a knowledgable guy though your post here doesnt enlighten.

Tell me, if i believe i need to re-boot my test, could i do this now without taking gear, or would yopu suggest taking deca for x amount weeks then pct?.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Ok, due to the information at hand or lack there of, I cant make an informed post due to many factors, like.

How many mg per ml of the deca?

Do you recover easy or not.

How long you stay on?

If you used HCG during or not?

Was any other gears used?

etc...........

Deca for me is terribly supressive, not to mention its deconate ester can take over a month to supress and its metabolites from the nanrolone can still supress months later..

Some guys recovery quick, others can take a year to recover.

See?

So, it would be impossible to really say for sure as you can be injecting anywhere from 200mg every week to 700mg per week.

600mg of deca a week for more than 12 weeks shuts down guys pretty damn hard, and for up to a year.


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## jassdhali (Jul 2, 2008)

Vin, if you're seeing an endo why are you worried about doing a course, sounds very short sighted to me. Wait till you have seen your endo and get your TRT sorted once & for all. Why risk a short course after all the crap you have been through ?!


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

jassdhalli

i have been seeing and edo for a year i have been prescribed trt indefinitely

he has adjusted my doses accordingly and he has put me on sustanon 250 every fortnight he will not increase this dose now as he says its the maximum he can prescribe

nothing is going to cxhange now im on this dosage of medication for life i am only going for routine checks now so there is no difference doing a course now or next year in my opinion


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## smartin (Aug 28, 2010)

hackskii said:


> Ok, due to the information at hand or lack there of, I cant make an informed post due to many factors, like.
> 
> How many mg per ml of the deca?
> 
> ...


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## smartin (Aug 28, 2010)

Hackskii,

My reply for some reason has stuck in the middle of your last post, dunno what happened though hope you find and give me your thoughts. Moderator just noticed im classed as a newbie trainer under my title... not had chance to sort photo or avi but been hitting the iron for 20years matey.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

smartin said:


> Hackskii,
> 
> My reply for some reason has stuck in the middle of your last post, dunno what happened though hope you find and give me your thoughts. Moderator just noticed im classed as a newbie trainer under my title... not had chance to sort photo or avi but been hitting the iron for 20years matey.


Ok, fair play.

But, my mind reading skills are not my best forta'e.

I can only give advice based on the information at hand.

I do not know how old you are.

How many cycles you have been on.

Your recovery to said cycles.

Your blood work to see a snapshot of what is going on.

When I suggested something, I was classed as not paying attention.

Far from that actually.

Thread was hyjacked.

Do me a favor, start your own thread.

Give me as much information as possible to the relevent condition you are having.

Let me ask you questions.

Then you can have others chime in on your diagnosis and allow all of us to understand your condition.

Do me a favor, start your own thread, and re-direct me to said thread.

Deal?


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

i would just like to point out that hacskii is a very decent guy who goes out of his way to help people with advice he has helped me through what i have been going through and i really appreciate all the advice and help he has given me you are a top bloke mate


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## smartin (Aug 28, 2010)

Thats fair enough mate though in order to provide sufficient info i prob should start with bloods at docs. So to be honest i dont consider this too much of a problem right now. I was only looking for an answer in general that if taking pct at ANY time would improve low test. Cheers for reply,s though hackskii and appreciate where your comming from tho.


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## Musashi (Oct 21, 2009)

big vin said:


> jassdhalli
> 
> i have been seeing and edo for a year i have been prescribed trt indefinitely
> 
> ...


Mate there are other trt options than Sust every two weeks; Nebido, Testogel etc and there is a roll on under arm preparation likely to be licenced in 2011.

I personally have Test E 250mg every two weeks that I divide into two weekly shots to produce a more even serum level over the once a fortnight shot.

Also remember medicine develops over time and you are unlikely to be following the same protocol for ever.

In all honesty you are better placed in finding your optimum trt protocol with your Endo before introducing blasts into the mix. This can take time but once you find the 'sweet spot' it will yield life improvements.

Failing this do a search for Stonecoldzero and take a look at his trt posts to get an idea on the available options out there for trt based blast and cruise.


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

thats all good and well but if i go to my endo and say i want to change to test e he will tell me where to go i was previously on sus 250 every 3 weeks i asked him to increase the dose he refused so i told him i was going to go back on the gear if he didnt increase it then he said ok and put me onto every 2 weeks .


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## finasterided (Nov 13, 2009)

Hi vin what were your balls like when your test was very low?

I took finasteride for my hair, came off and balls shrank a bit but not massively so. Trouble is I chemically castrated myself, got a pot belly and flabby pecs. It's like I don't react to androgens anymore. Tried T gel and felt nothing.


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## Musashi (Oct 21, 2009)

big vin said:


> thats all good and well but if i go to my endo and say i want to change to test e he will tell me where to go i was previously on sus 250 every 3 weeks i asked him to increase the dose he refused so i told him i was going to go back on the gear if he didnt increase it then he said ok and put me onto every 2 weeks .


Yes mate it is all well and good but its also fact mush!

For whatever reason you don't seem open to any ideas other than smashing into a cycle/blast before allowing your trt to stabilise or to be adjusted. Your call crack on.

You don't need to threaten doctors by saying you're going back on the gear - European Urology Guidelines offer Sust at 250mg every two weeks! Arm yourself with the relevant protocol and you will find that you will receive better results!

All the best.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

smartin said:


> Thats fair enough mate though in order to provide sufficient info i prob should start with bloods at docs. So to be honest i dont consider this too much of a problem right now. I was only looking for an answer in general that if taking pct at ANY time would improve low test. Cheers for reply,s though hackskii and appreciate where your comming from tho.


Well, there are other reasons for low testosterone levels, and doing some form of PCT might not be the best approach.

For instance, bellyfat is a predominant reside for aromatase enzyme, beings that testosterone gets converted into estrogen via way of aromatase enzyme, this could elivate estrogen in men with acesss bellyfat.

If this is the case, the only way the body can lower estrogen is by lowering testosterone, which compromises lean tissue, increases bellyfat, and compromise blood sugar.

In essence making you fatter, having more aromatase activity, etc.

Defiencies in zinc for instance can compromise testosterone production, and is a mild (very) aromatase inhibitor.

Low fat diets can compromise testosterone production, long distance athletes can generally have compromised testosterone production.

Sleep apnea can lower or compromise testosterone production.

So, as you can see, there is a bunch of things that can compromise T production, if you dont address these first and formost, you are just spinning your wheels.


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

OldMan said:


> Yes mate it is all well and good but its also fact mush!
> 
> For whatever reason you don't seem open to any ideas other than smashing into a cycle/blast before allowing your trt to stabilise or to be adjusted. Your call crack on.
> 
> ...


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## cecil_sensation (Jan 26, 2009)

hackskii said:


> Well, there are other reasons for low testosterone levels, and doing some form of PCT might not be the best approach.
> 
> For instance, bellyfat is a predominant reside for aromatase enzyme, beings that testosterone gets converted into estrogen via way of aromatase enzyme, this could elivate estrogen in men with acesss bellyfat.
> 
> ...


im totally comfused here lol

in simple terms hackskii what do you mean by this.

if you have a belly you have higher estrogen?

im comfused what you mean here. im very interested in what you mean here. your threads are always great to read. but im totally comfused with this one

could you please shed me some light in normal terms please (im a bit thick)

:thumb:


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

oliver Roberts said:


> im totally comfused here lol
> 
> in simple terms hackskii what do you mean by this.
> 
> ...


No need to confuse.

Higher bodyfat can cause excessive aromitization, this can lower serum testosterone, elivate SHBG and give you lower total testosterone, and lower free testosterone.

By age 55, many men will have higher estrogen than their female counterparts, same age considering.


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## HJL (Apr 26, 2009)

ive no experience with steriods, but if i had just gone through what vin had, i would just wana chill for a long time!

good luck buddy


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## cecil_sensation (Jan 26, 2009)

hackskii said:


> No need to confuse.
> 
> Higher bodyfat can cause excessive aromitization, this can lower serum testosterone, elivate SHBG and give you lower total testosterone, and lower free testosterone.
> 
> By age 55, many men will have higher estrogen than their female counterparts, same age considering.


thank you hacksii :thumb:

great reply. think i best do a little more research into this

i best go burn off some more fat as well :thumb:


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## smartin (Aug 28, 2010)

Cheers HACKSKII, now you,ve givin me a greater insight though now the low test could be fokin anything now.... decent condition though carry front belly fat which find hard to shift... sleep is really bad and always broken to pee TWICE a night for as many years as care to remember..... and the approx 8 courses of deca without PCT over the last 20years.

How should i play it? Whats the worse that could happen if for instance i take some clomid or similar?


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

big vin said:


> hacksii you know that im on trt im getting impatient do you think can build muscle on my current trt dosage of an injection of sustanon every two weeks im in two minds whether to do a s


Yes actually, you will gain muscle as you have more testosterone than most men your age.

It wont be a problem.



oliver Roberts said:


> thank you hacksii :thumb:
> 
> great reply. think i best do a little more research into this
> 
> i best go burn off some more fat as well :thumb:


lowering bodyfat is never a bad idea.



smartin said:


> Cheers HACKSKII, now you,ve givin me a greater insight though now the low test could be fokin anything now.... decent condition though carry front belly fat which find hard to shift... sleep is really bad and always broken to pee TWICE a night for as many years as care to remember..... and the approx 8 courses of deca without PCT over the last 20years.
> 
> How should i play it? Whats the worse that could happen if for instance i take some clomid or similar?


Sleep is always a good thing, for recovery, for testosterone levels, for cortisol levels, for general good frame of mind.

Compromise sleep, you compromise your ability to make good decisions..........

This is a bad thing.

In fact, kids that dont sleep well tend to be fatter than their counterparts that sleep more.

Compromising this is never an option.

Consider this.

When you do not get the sleep you need, you compromise adrenal function, compromise GH output, compromise testosterone production, and compromise your ability to handle basic things that you would not given you not had sleep.

During sleep your mind works problems.

During sleep you recover.

Compromise this, you compromise life.


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## smartin (Aug 28, 2010)

Wise and true hackskii i know, im lathargic alot during the day and know sleep is essential to grow and recover as well as a lot of other things. Not a hell of a lot you can do if your not a great sleeper though...short of dropping pills!. This ,even if i wanted to, would not even help as im sure its my fluid intake thats the problem, i am not a great eater and drink a lot of my daily diet which could be 4or5 pro shakes as well as 4pints of milk [ skimmed of course]. Its alright saying well dont consume fluids before bedtime but its fookn tough trying to get six meals a day in....ainnit???. I notice that your 50ish and assume your knowledge comes with experience of both study and personal use of gear and ancillary drugs...true?. I in my case im 44 and never bothered as I never intended to use, simply based on health reasons. I remember back in the early nineties when thinking about taking gear...****tin myself just reading "the wee steriod handbook" and wondering what was safe for me to try. I decided to take deca as considered this safe and mostly anabolic making my mind up early that i would never go down the heavy androgen route. I found that although strength gains werent great it helped conditioning and decided to stick with it when required. Times have changed a hell of a lot since the early 90s and reading some of the cycles on forums is like reading a fookin receipe!!. Big Respect to all that hit the gym though and everyones intitled to their own choices though.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Whole foods over shakes any day, with the exception of post exercise.

Melatonin would be a great addition to your evening supplements.

3mg ED will totally help with sleep, it is a natural anti-cancer hormone along with anti-oxidant hormone.

It declines with age.

They are doing studies on the prostate with this hormone, looks promising too.

Take it early evening.

5HTP is another supplement that you might find rewarding for relaxation and mood.

There are others but I dont want to hyjack this thread too bad:lol:


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## smartin (Aug 28, 2010)

Melatonin was mentioned to me by my gym owner last night funny enough. Sorry for going off your beaten track big vin tho i believed my natural test needed kick started too. Hope your seeing some light now vin.

Hackskii ta for all advice its taken on board and i will make a point to read up.


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

so im taking 250mg of sustanon every 2 weeks with my current trt so thats 125mg of testosterone a week does anyone know how much tesosterone the average male produces every week ? hacskii??


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## Old but not out (Sep 8, 2009)

big vin said:


> so im taking 250mg of sustanon every 2 weeks with my current trt so thats 125mg of testosterone a week does anyone know how much tesosterone the average male produces every week ? hacskii??


The quantity of Testosterone synthesised on a daily basis is between 3 and 10mg (Horton 1978) averaging around 7mg (Bardin 1996).

The equates to between 21 and 70mg a week with an average of 49mg a week.

Remember your 125mg will not all be testosterone - some of the weight will be the esters. I cannot remember the exact figure but your sustanon will be around 70% testosterone as weight. This means your are using around 175mg every 2 weeks, which is 87.5mg per week or an average of 12.5mg a day (assuming your blood levels are stable for the whole two weeks?). In theory your total testosterone should be around 25% higher than men in the upper range. Your free testosterone will be dependant upon SHGB levels, which in turn is dependant upon estrogen control. If you are controlling estrogen well then SHGB should be lower than most men (high testosterone drives SHGB down, high estrogen drives it up), this means your free T will be at least 25% more than upper range men.


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

these were my last blood results mate

TESTOSTERONE 12.9 nmol/l (10.0-37.0)

SHGB 34 (11-71)


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## Old but not out (Sep 8, 2009)

when were these taken - how long after your last sust inection and how long had you been on TRT?


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

been on trt for about 12 weeks now the test was taken 1 month ago it was taken the day before 2 weeks after an injection 5 minitues before my fortnightly injection


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## Old but not out (Sep 8, 2009)

big vin said:


> been on trt for about 12 weeks now the test was taken 1 month ago it was taken the day before 2 weeks after an injection 5 minitues before my fortnightly injection


So this is your lowest reading. It means you levels will be far higher during the 4-5 days after your injection.

Injecting every two weeks is outdated and will not produce stable levels. You need to inject 125mg a week, this will give you far more stable levels. Despite what people say about half lives etc I would split this in half again - using 0.25ml (63mg) every 3-4 days.

TRT is outdated in this country. In the USA the standard protocol has evolved to 2 x test injections a week, an AI plus hCG.


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

my nurse injects it for me so maybe i should ask my doctor if he will let me split it

if this is better why the fcuk dont they do it like that in the first place it really winds me up or do the docs know best??


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## Old but not out (Sep 8, 2009)

big vin said:


> my nurse injects it for me so maybe i should ask my doctor if he will let me split it
> 
> if this is better why the **** dont they do it like that in the first place it really winds me up or do the docs know best??


We are just behind the USA. Ask your Dr and he will tell you all is fine and you don t need to split. Try it and see the difference. There is plenty of evidence out there to show more frequent injections work better.

If I ever need TRT - I will do it myself rather than use our current NHS protocols.


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

so what do you think of my testosterone and shgb figures as you can work out my free androgen index from these figures do you think im getting more than normal natural testosterone


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## Old but not out (Sep 8, 2009)

big vin said:


> so what do you think of my testosterone and shgb figures as you can work out my free androgen index from these figures do you think im getting more than normal natural testosterone


In all probability your testosterone levels are high for 4 - 6 days after your injection but according to your blood tests are low towards the end of your cycle. In terms of training it may be productive to train daily and with high intensity during the seven days after injection when testosterone is high and recovery and protein synthesis is also probably better than the normal, as testosterone falls you may want to lower training stress and increase recovery times. Cycling your training to follow your testosterone levels may help in terms of mass and strength gains.

It would be much easier on you if you could split your injections and achieve consistently high/normal testosterone levels. You are also much less likely to estrogen issues with split doses


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## mrmasive (Dec 30, 2005)

hackskii said:


> Yes actually, you will gain muscle as you have more testosterone than most men your age.
> 
> It wont be a problem.
> 
> ...


 :lol: reminded me of the track from the film 'Trainspotting'

Maybe i didn't get enough sleep last night :thumbup1:


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

Old but not out said:


> In all probability your testosterone levels are high for 4 - 6 days after your injection but according to your blood tests are low towards the end of your cycle. In terms of training it may be productive to train daily and with high intensity during the seven days after injection when testosterone is high and recovery and protein synthesis is also probably better than the normal, as testosterone falls you may want to lower training stress and increase recovery times. Cycling
> 
> http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

i have had an injection today what im going to do is have a blood test i 7 days time get the results then have another blood test 6 or 7 days later just before my fortnightly injection and see what the results show then i should know where im at


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

big vin said:


> i have had an injection today what im going to do is have a blood test i 7 days time get the results then have another blood test 6 or 7 days later just before my fortnightly injection and see what the results show then i should know where im at


correct me if im wrong but it thought sustanon contained four different estess that are released at different times making it suitable for infrequent injections thus why it is used for trt


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## Old but not out (Sep 8, 2009)

big vin said:


> correct me if im wrong but it thought sustanon contained four different estess that are released at different times making it suitable for infrequent injections thus why it is used for trt


In theory - but if that is the case why are you at a level of only 12nm/l after 12 days? I am confident your blood tests will show a huge variation in your levels over a 2 week period. If they don t your dose is simply too low


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

Old but not out said:


> In theory - but if that is the case why are you at a level of only 12nm/l after 12 days? I am confident your blood tests will show a huge variation in your levels over a 2 week period. If they don t your dose is simply too low


i told my endo that i thought my dose was too low but he dissagreed and said the figures were normal i told him he was a cnut and it was my life i would just get some more sustanon and inject it myself but it seems that its all fake stuff out

http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Old but not out said:


> In all probability your testosterone levels are high for 4 - 6 days after your injection but according to your blood tests are low towards the end of your cycle. In terms of training it may be productive to train daily and with high intensity during the seven days after injection when testosterone is high and recovery and protein synthesis is also probably better than the normal, as testosterone falls you may want to lower training stress and increase recovery times. Cycling your training to follow your testosterone levels may help in terms of mass and strength gains.
> 
> It would be much easier on you if you could split your injections and achieve consistently high/normal testosterone levels. You are also much less likely to estrogen issues with split doses


Very nice post, absolutly a fantastic post and great insight.

I would consider this BigVin, this just makes so much sense to me it isnt funny.

Reps old man.


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

im gonna see what my blood results are after 6 days of the injection then a week later just bewfore im due my next injection then will compare the results i will keep you posted guys


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## julesm (May 18, 2008)

i am reading about a fair few people who are dividing doses and injecting sub cut on some trt forums


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## Old but not out (Sep 8, 2009)

julesm said:


> i am reading about a fair few people who are dividing doses and injecting sub cut on some trt forums


 :thumbup1: :thumbup1: :thumbup1: :thumbup1:


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## julesm (May 18, 2008)

in addition looking at things holistically and not just from a single hormone perspective

cortisol, thyroid etc


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## Musashi (Oct 21, 2009)

julesm said:


> i am reading about a fair few people who are dividing doses and injecting sub cut on some trt forums


.........and from personal experience I can say that it works!

I inject 62.5mg of Test E Mon & Fri SQ and my levels so far are stable, once you get to this point a 'blast' can be introduced if required but it is important to get your standard protocol sorted first. Some guys work well on one shot per week others find they require a shot EOD - we are not all the same.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Lots better than the early days where they shot 300mg of test E every 3 weeks.

I know an old guy they did this to years ago and he was old, first week he wanted to have sex with all the nurses, by the end of week 3 he said he felt like hell.

It put him on a crazy roller coaster ride.

They dropped it to 200mg every 2 weeks.

In the states it is more popular than ever to do the test creams or gels, applied once to twice a day.


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## Musashi (Oct 21, 2009)

hackskii said:


> *Lots better than the early days where they shot 300mg of test E every 3 weeks*.
> 
> I know an old guy they did this to years ago and he was old, first week he wanted to have sex with all the nurses, by the end of week 3 he said he felt like hell.
> 
> ...


It is loads better Scott, but sadly my regime falls outside the NHS/NICE protocol.

Basically I am 'told' to inject 250mg of Test E every two weeks via IM - this is what I tell my doctor that I'm doing! My bloods come back at an 'okay' level (which is all they are interested in) but more importantly I feel 'good' on this regime.

In addition to this I use an AI which is not available here via prescription.

We are a long way behind the USA or mainland Europe for that matter, in terms of TRT and we have to gain as much information as we can from web based research etc.

A 'few' months back I was totally ignorant to trt and via 'self education' and discussion with people operating in this field I've managed to get a working knowledge of the game.

It's very sad when you hear of guys like Big Vin getting sort shift from his doctor and there are many others out there in the same position.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Well, that is because of the stigma of the use of steroids, just watch, come olympics time, you guys will find it hard to get gear, sources will get hammered, to give the appearance of England doing something about the use of steroids.

Many doctors here still perscribe lowest dose they can.

My friend tested low on Testosterone they perscribed him 5mg androgel.

Androgel comes in 5mg, 7.5mg and 10mg, dude is 6'4" and was 260 pounds, and even though T levels dont matter on the size of man, he was on the lowest dose they perscribe.

He felt ok but not great, so he went back next blood test and told them some things that allowed them to up the dose (no night time erections, erectile problems, not a good libido, etc), they uped the dose to 7.5mg ED.

He went back later and I told him to use less gel the couple of days leading up to his blood work, and then showed low end, again followed the I still feel better but not 100%, so they upped the dose to 10mg ED of androgel.

Went back and forgot to drop the dose a couple of days before the blood test and bang, was over the top number 320-960 mark and dropped his dose back down to 7.5mg ED:lol:

I called him some names....lol

Now it comes in a big pump and he can dose himself.

Here the doctors are afraid to give upper end as they dont want to be labeled steroid doctors, its sick really.

They are perfectly content at leaving you at the bottom end of normal even when your natty levels younger were higher.

Its never really solely about numbers, I am lower end, dont grow much facial hair, but libido is good, erections are fine, get night time wood (sometimes) and some sex dreams some times.

But I am only in the 300-400 range or lower half of normal.


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

i know i have asked this recently but i want some advice can someone recommend me a course i can take as you know im on trt sustanon 250 every 2 weeks but im ready to take a course for about 10 weeks please can you give me a few options as i have limited suppliers

thanks guys


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## mal (Dec 31, 2009)

you like being spoon fed dont you,your like my 7 year old son:lol:

only jokin mate:whistling: dbol n test and hcg.


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

lol ok how much dbol and what kind of test and what dosages?


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

anyone else have any suggestions hacskii ??


----------



## Musashi (Oct 21, 2009)

hackskii said:


> Oh, something like 500mg test E, with 300mg tren and see how you feel on that.
> 
> Or just the 500 test E, with your TRT you will be over 600mg EW, that should allow for some nice gains.





big vin said:


> anyone else have any suggestions hacskii ??


Christ alive mate - you keep asking the same questions over and over - here this is what Hacks wrote for you the last time you asked!


----------



## Musashi (Oct 21, 2009)

One thing I've been wondering for a while.

Is that you in your avitar Big Vin? If so then thats a fair old physique you have there - how the hell have you managed to build it with the knowledge base you appear to have?

I take it you know more about diet and training than gear eh!


----------



## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

OldMan said:


> One thing I've been wondering for a while.
> 
> Is that you in your avitar Big Vin? If so then thats a fair old physique you have there - how the hell have you managed to build it with the knowledge base you appear to have?
> 
> I take it you know more about diet and training than gear eh!


yes its me on the picture i have been training for a long time i have trained with eugine lavinscount for the last 10 years if you google him you will see he has won many competitions including mr universe i know lots about training and nutrition but steroids dont really know tha much i have only used sus decca and dbol in the past and never even heard of pct untill i joined this forum last year thats why im asking for advice


----------



## Musashi (Oct 21, 2009)

big vin said:


> yes its me on the picture i have been training for a long time i train with eugine lavinscount if you google him you will see he has won many competitions including mr universe i know lots ab
> 
> http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/


Fair play and like I say you certainly have a decent build on you.

I don't mean to come across like some sort of pr**k but if you read back through this thread all the answers to your questions are already there.

Looking as good as you do in the photo I think you're mental going back on the gear after the problems you have had.

You will gain/maintain on the trt you have after the prolonged shut down you've been through - why risk fvckin yourself up again for a bit more size?


----------



## Guest (Sep 29, 2010)

OldMan said:


> You will gain/maintain on the trt you have after the prolonged shut down you've been through - why risk fvckin yourself up again for a bit more size?


Just my 2 natty cents so i know it doesnt count, but if your natty test is fooked and your on TRT for life anyway, what damage you going to to that you havnt already?


----------



## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

mikex101 said:


> Just my 2 natty cents so i know it doesnt count, but if your natty test is fooked and your on TRT for life anyway, what damage you going to to that you havnt already?


exactly !!


----------



## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

OldMan said:


> Christ alive mate - you keep asking the same questions over and over - here this is what Hacks wrote for you the last time you asked!


yeah but to be fair you are not reading my replies like i said last time i cant get any test e thats why i asked for some alternative courses


----------



## Musashi (Oct 21, 2009)

mikex101 said:


> Just my 2 natty cents so i know it doesnt count, but if your natty test is fooked and your on TRT for life anyway, what damage you going to to that you havnt already?





big vin said:


> exactly !!


Elevated BP and associated problems, prostate issues, potential polycythemia; and those are just three things off the top of my head.


----------



## Musashi (Oct 21, 2009)

big vin said:


> yeah i can get test cypionate so do you recommend that to go with the tren??





big vin said:


> yeah but to be fair you are not reading my replies like i said last time i cant get any test e thats why i asked for some alternative courses


I do read your replies/posts mate.

Test C and E have a 'similar' ester so follow Hacks advice and just substitute the E for C.


----------



## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

OldMan said:


> Elevated BP and associated problems, prostate issues, potential polycythemia; and those are just three things off the top of my head.


but they as the possible side effects you can get by taking any kind of gear im aware of this so are you saying i should never take any steroids again and are you going to say that to everyone who comes on here for a advice on a cycle


----------



## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Any test would be fine, just dont use the sust as it may interfere with your next blood test and then they will reduce your dose.

Any test will work, propionate, enanthate, cypionate, just stay off the deconates, and the long esters.

Orals would be fine, so dbol would be ok @ 20 to 30mg ED, get an aromatase inhibitor to keep estrogenic sides down.


----------



## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

hackskii said:


> Any test would be fine, just dont use the sust as it may interfere with your next blood test and then they will reduce your dose.
> 
> Any test will work, propionate, enanthate, cypionate, just stay off the deconates, and the long esters.
> 
> Orals would be fine, so dbol would be ok @ 20 to 30mg ED, get an aromatase inhibitor to keep estrogenic sides down.


thanks hacskii the next blood test result will not be a problem i will just not have any more alone work done for a good

http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/


----------



## Musashi (Oct 21, 2009)

big vin said:


> but they as the possible side effects you can get by taking any kind of gear im aware of this so are you saying i should never take any steroids again and are you going to say that to everyone who comes on here for a advice on a cycle


I starting to think your on a wind up and taking the **** now!

This really can't be on the level.


----------



## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

OldMan said:


> I starting to think your on a wind up and taking the **** now!
> 
> This really can't be on the level.


no im not taking the pi ss i would never do that on this forum i appreciate everyones who takes time to comment maybe i just come across wrong sometimes but its not intentional


----------



## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

hackskii said:


> Any test would be fine, just dont use the sust as it may interfere with your next blood test and then they will reduce your dose.
> 
> Any test will work, propionate, enanthate, cypionate, just stay off the deconates, and the long esters.
> 
> Orals would be fine, so dbol would be ok @ 20 to 30mg ED, get an aromatase inhibitor to keep estrogenic sides down.


what is an aramotase inhibitor hackskii what you recommend at what dosage mate


----------



## Musashi (Oct 21, 2009)

big vin said:


> no im not taking the pi ss i would never do that on this forum i appreciate everyones who takes time to comment maybe i just come across wrong sometimes but its not intentional


Okay maybe I'm wrong?



big vin said:


> what is an aramotase inhibitor hackskii what you recommend at what dosage mate


AI's inhibit aromatase, which is an enzyme that regulates the production of estrogen.

Try Arimidex (Anastrazole) 1mg per week divided into two doses (half a tablet Tues & Fri)


----------



## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

OldMan said:


> Okay maybe I'm wrong?
> 
> AI's inhibit aromatase, which is an enzyme that regulates the production of estrogen.
> 
> Try Arimidex (Anastrazole) 1mg per week divided into two doses (half a tablet Tues & Fri)


im going to do a ten week course of test and dianabol when would i need to start taking the arimidex should i be taking it straight away or later on and for how long thanks


----------



## Musashi (Oct 21, 2009)

big vin said:


> im going to do a ten week course of test and dianabol when would i need to start taking the arimidex should i be taking it straight away or later on and for how long thanks


Really depends on who you talk to mate.

Some people say, start your cycle and see how you get on - there may not be a need for Adex at all.

Others will say start off on half a tablet twice a week and increase if required.

If you have suffered any gyno type symptoms in the past there may be a argument to start Adex from day one of your cycle?

Your in a funny place too be honest being on TRT - many patients in the USA get Adex as part of there TRT (I use it myself) to ward off estrogen.

Personally I would ask someone like Hacks or Mars their view on Adex - but my few lines should point you in the right direction to begin with.

PS. There is loads of technical stuff about Estrogen on here and Google if you do a search - but in basic terms you don't want it too high or too low.


----------



## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Nice post oldman

TRT guys in the states do use an AI when on injectable TRT.

Generally speaking it would be around .5mg adex twice a week.

But remember the dose is just 100mg of cyp a week.

So, with 500mg or 600 in your case it is a crap shoot and probably would be somewhere around .5 EOD, if you were really lean perhaps a bit less or depending on the person more.

Too low and lipids get compromised and so does libido, and joint stiffness, too high and you get estrogenic sides like gyno and can cause libido issues.

Some of our test creams have an AI in them like cryosine(sp) and some due to more DHT conversion do not require any AI due to DHT opposes estrogen to some respect, but it can promote hair loss (creams).

I like adex myself is it is easy to dose, much easier than letro, I cant seem to get that one right for the life of me, once I get estrogen where I want it for gyno control, bang, stiff joints, loss of libido.....It is very strong as well.

At least we have somewhere to look at with the TRT guys being on that one.

Aromasin myself I was not pleased with.


----------



## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

ok guys thanks for your replies i have never had any gyno whatsoever in the past i have just had a blood test today and i have had my estrogen done in that test i should have my results back tomorrow so i will let you know what my estrogen levels are at the moment


----------



## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

as you know im on trt sustanon 250 one injection every 2 weeks i had an injection last wed and then exactly 7 days later i had a blood test i have just got my results back they are as follows

testosterone 23.8 nmol/l (10.0-37.0)

shgb 19 nmol/l (11-71)

fsh 4.4 IU/L (1.0-11.0)

LH 1.3 IU/L (1.0-8.0)

oestradiol 152 pmol/l (22-162)

my testsoterone has shot up now and my shgb has lowered which is giving me a higher free test which is good i just have a slight concern about my estrogen which is high does this high estrogen come with the increased testosterone

would love some opinions guys

much appreciated


----------



## spike (Jul 27, 2009)

All things considered, your T level is great.

Just for your info, on the same scale, I tested at 55 when doing Sus250 e8. 

As for the high E level - you're quite right - E always follows T ie higher T = higher E.

Use an AI low dose short term (adex) to lower E levels without destroying them for a better T:E ratio.


----------



## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

neurospike7 said:


> All things considered, your T level is great.
> 
> Just for your info, on the same scale, I tested at 55 when doing Sus250 e8.
> 
> ...


ok thanks for you reply


----------



## IAIN1978 (Sep 13, 2010)

Hi Big Vin,

Can I ask why you were put on TRT? I am assuming your natural test production could not be restored?


----------



## Old but not out (Sep 8, 2009)

big vin said:


> as you know im on trt sustanon 250 one injection every 2 weeks i had an injection last wed and then exactly 7 days later i had a blood test i have just got my results back they are as follows
> 
> testosterone 23.8 nmol/l (10.0-37.0)
> 
> ...


Your test has not shot up - you have just tested it at a time closer to your injection - I will stake my life on the fact that 2 days bedfore your next injection it will be low!


----------



## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

IAIN1978 said:


> Hi Big Vin,
> 
> Can I ask why you were put on TRT? I am assuming your natural test production could not be restored?


yes mate i was put on trt because i have been shut down for over a year and 2 doctors and three endos said i would never recover my natural testoerone


----------



## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

Old but not out said:


> Your test has not shot up - you have just tested it at a time closer to your injection - I will stake my life on the fact that 2 days bedfore your next injection it will be low!


what i meant was it has shot up from 2 weeks ago when i had another blood test just before my injection was due and it was as follows

TESTOSTERONE 12.9 nmol/l (10.0-37)

SHGB 42 (11-71)

so in effect a week after my injection my test levels are almost double compared to what they 2 weeks after my injection just before i was due another injection and my shgb is almost half


----------



## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

big vin said:


> what i meant was it has shot up from 2 weeks ago when i had another blood test just before my injection was due and it was as follows
> 
> TESTOSTERONE 12.9 nmol/l (10.0-37)
> 
> ...


----------



## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

and i meant it has shot up from 1.2 as this was what my test level was for almost a year !


----------



## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

as you know im on trt sustanon 250 one injection every 2 weeks i had an injection last wed and then exactly 7 days later i had a blood test i have just got my results back they are as follows

testosterone 23.8 nmol/l (10.0-37.0)

shgb 19 nmol/l (11-71)

fsh 4.4 IU/L (1.0-11.0)

LH 1.3 IU/L (1.0-8.0)

oestradiol 152 pmol/l (22-162)

my testsoterone has shot up now and my shgb has lowered which is giving me a higher free test which is good i just have a slight concern about my estrogen which is high does this high estrogen come with the increased testosterone

would love some opinions guys

much appreciated


----------



## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

Old but not out said:


> Your test has not shot up - you have just tested it at a time closer to your injection - I will stake my life on the fact that 2 days bedfore your next injection it will be low!


you are correct mate


----------



## ballie (May 9, 2010)

Big Vin,

I am about to be put on TRT myself which I am a bit worried about, I never done any gear just getting old (46) my blood tests showed following.

Testosterone 6.8

FSH 3.6

LH 3.7

My Doc has said that my testicles are normal but my brain isn't sending the signal to make enough TEST.

Anyway he is putting me on these pellet implants he says they will rise my test to 25 - 30 and this should last for 4 - 6 months was you offered these? if yes why did you go for injections?


----------



## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

Dan92 said:


> you need an AI bro for you estrogen.


i can get some aromasin will this do?


----------



## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

ballie said:


> Big Vin,
> 
> I am about to be put on TRT myself which I am a bit worried about, I never done any gear just getting old (46) my blood tests showed following.
> 
> ...


well my blood tests showed test of onlt 1.2 and thius was down to taking steroids never heard of those pellets but i have been put on sustanon 250 for life


----------



## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

so what does it mean if i have high estrogen what does it do to me what effects does it cause ?


----------



## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

big vin said:


> testosterone 23.8 nmol/l (10.0-37.0)
> 
> shgb 19 nmol/l (11-71)
> 
> ...


What is strange is the fact you are within range (LH/FSH) now and on TRT.

Recovery might have been a possibility.



big vin said:


> i can get some aromasin will this do?


Yes.

I dont know the dosing for that.

Adex would be something like .5mg twice a week then get bloods done.



big vin said:


> so what does it mean if i have high estrogen what does it do to me what effects does it cause ?


Gyno symptoms, loss of libido, and perhaps some extra bellyfat, but that probably wont be an issue.


----------



## finasterided (Nov 13, 2009)

Big Vin what did you feel like when your test was 1.2? Any muscle loss, mental confusion, fat gain, ED problems?


----------



## Fit_N_Fun (Oct 1, 2010)

Big Vin,<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" /><o></o>

<o></o>

Just read this whole thread ........... quite a task and quite a journey you've had<o></o>

<o></o>

I have some different thoughts for you.

<o></o>

HCG is very commonly used when you are on cycle, I use it at 400iu every 5 days at the same time as I jab my other gear.

<o></o>

It's real easy to see when HCG is working by the size of your nuts.

<o></o>

MY suggestion to you is to continue with your TRT, but go back on HCG, it was clear from your earlier results that it was having an effect, just not as fast as you would have liked.

<o></o>

HCG at 400 iu every 5 days keeps my nuts 80% to 90% inflated while on cycle, but it's not till I take Clomid and Tamoxifen that I get full inflation.

<o></o>

I have read similar stories to yours on other forums and the experts say that several PCT's may be required to get your system going again.

<o></o>

I think you gave up your PCT too soon and you may yet have a chance to recover.

<o></o>

Next point is Naltrexone.

<o></o>

I used it at the end of my last cycle at 25mg every day and it did not work, but researched it some more and it appears that it needs to be used at a very low dose each day so that you get a peak in your system that will get the HPTA functioning again.

<o></o>

It seems that 4 to 6mg every other day is sufficient for some to not require any PCT.

<o></o>

I am going to start a cycle again soon am going to start with 6mg Naltrexone every other day and see if my nuts stay inflated while I am on.

<o></o>

I usually cycle test + deca + tren E which I believe will shut you down pretty hard, so if the naltrexone works on that it will be pretty cool, if it does not seem to respond I will keep going with it and add HCG as normal.

<o></o>

So in summary, get back on the HCG and research Low dose Naltrexone, once your nuts inflate complete your PCT with Clomid and Tamoxifen.

<o></o>

Be prepared to repeat a few PCT cycles to see if you can get your system to function again.

<o></o>

Apologies for the long first post.


----------



## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

Fit_N_Fun said:


> Big Vin,<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" /><o></o>
> 
> <o></o>
> 
> ...


i appreciate what you are i have decidede to do a course now im going to do test e and dianabol


----------



## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

finasterided said:


> Big Vin what did you feel like when your test was 1.2? Any muscle loss, mental confusion, fat gain, ED problems?


to be honest with you muscle loss was not that much and i was training all the way through a little fat gain on my stomach but my diet was bad then i have that in order now the biggest feeling i had was my loss of libido which was really low and also loss off ejaculate fluid was a main concern but its all baCK TO NORMAL NOW


----------



## finasterided (Nov 13, 2009)

big vin said:


> to be honest with you muscle loss was not that much and i was training all the way through a little fat gain on my stomach but my diet was bad then i have that in order now the biggest feeling i had was my loss of libido which was really low and also loss off ejaculate fluid was a main concern but its all baCK TO NORMAL NOW


Lucky you mate I'm on the very low end of 'normal' for T and feel like a Chelsea pensioner, mind you I took finasteride for my f'ing hair not steroids and it messed me up worse!


----------



## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

i was thinking the same thing hacskii about my fsh and lh being in range now in fact low very strange anyway im doing a course of test and dbol now mate


----------



## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

hacskii i have just got some test e 250 and dianabol going to do a 8-10 week course what do you recomend for dosages mate ?


----------



## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

500 test and 20 to 30mg dbol a day would be fine.

Get an AI though, you probably could use one looking at your estrogen numbers right now.


----------



## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

hackskii said:


> 500 test and 20 to 30mg dbol a day would be fine.
> 
> Get an AI though, you probably could use one looking at your estrogen numbers right now.


----------



## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

hackskii said:


> 500 test and 20 to 30mg dbol a day would be fine.
> 
> Get an AI though, you probably could use one looking at your estrogen numbers right now.


the dbols i have come in 10mg tablets do you recommend three a day a different intervals?


----------



## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

hacskii not sure if i can get any AI'S will tamoxifen not do to lower my estrogen?


----------



## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

big vin said:


> hacskii not sure if i can get any AI'S will tamoxifen not do to lower my estrogen?


No, in fact it will elivate SHBG lowering free test.

Try one of the online research chem places, I think most of them do AI's.


----------



## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

hackskii said:


> No, in fact it will elivate SHBG lowering free test.
> 
> Try one of the online research chem places, I think most of them do AI's.


ok thanks mate can get some aromasin next week will that do ?


----------



## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Yah but dosing someone else will have to help you with.


----------



## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

got some dianabol to go with some test e been doing some research on dbol and it seems you get lot of bloat and water retention with im trying to lean up so going to ditch them and just take the test e at 500mg a week which will go with my trt sustanon will this be ok for a course ?


----------



## mal (Dec 31, 2009)

youl bloat on the test.


----------



## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

mal said:


> youl bloat on the test.


yeah i know mate but water retention will not be as bad as dianabol


----------



## Old but not out (Sep 8, 2009)

big vin said:


> got some dianabol to go with some test e been doing some research on dbol and it seems you get lot of bloat and water retention with im trying to lean up so going to ditch them and just take the test e at 500mg a week which will go with my trt sustanon will this be ok for a course ?


If you use an AI properly/correct dose you will get no bloat


----------



## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

Old but not out said:


> If you use an AI properly/correct dose you will get no bloat


im doing 500mg test e every week i can get some aromasin when should i start taking it and what dosage?


----------



## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

also i have been very low on test for a year now and accumulated a bit of belly fat will doing a course of test e aid in getting rid of this fat im doing cardio and eating very clean


----------



## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

I think the dose is 12.5mg if my memory serves me correctly.

I used it when I got a gyno flairup at that amount and to be honest I was not happy with it.

Now either I got the liquid stuff underdosed, or it is just crap for me (might just be me).

One guy suggested I need to use it with a meal with fat.

But I have used adex and letro and letro was too strong for me to dose accuratly.

For me adex is very easy to dose, letro hard, yet aromasin I could not get right.

So, with that said, you will need to ask someone who regularly uses it for the dosing protocol, I cant nail that one...

Sorry I could not be of more help.


----------



## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

hackskii said:


> I think the dose is 12.5mg if my memory serves me correctly.
> 
> I used it when I got a gyno flairup at that amount and to be honest I was not happy with it.
> 
> ...


thanks hacskii


----------



## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

im on trt sus 250 every fortnight have some testosterone enanthate 250 i want to do i cycle can i take this on its own or do i have to stack it with something else


----------



## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

You can take it on its own.


----------



## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

hackskii said:


> You can take it on its own.


ok hacskii thanks


----------



## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

hey hacskii or anyone else

do you think if i told my doctor about my high estrogen he would prescribe me some AI'S he seems to be a bit of a pushover lately he is letting me have blood test how often as i want how could i persuade him what synmptoms could i say im suffereing from what do you think?


----------



## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Its worth a try


----------



## Musashi (Oct 21, 2009)

big vin said:


> hey hacskii or anyone else
> 
> do you think if i told my doctor about my high estrogen he would prescribe me some AI'S he seems to be a bit of a pushover lately he is letting me have blood test how often as i want how could i persuade him what synmptoms could i say im suffereing from what do you think?


Very unlikely as it falls outside NHS protocol for trt - GP may say no chance or he 'may' ask an Endo for advice.

Like Hacks says "worth a try".


----------



## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

yeah i meant see my doctor or endo but i was wondering if i could tell him that it is causing some bad symtoms or something if you know what i mean


----------



## Musashi (Oct 21, 2009)

big vin said:


> yeah i meant see my doctor or endo but i was wondering if i could tell him that it is causing some bad symtoms or something if you know what i mean


Yeah I know what you mean.

In my limited experience of NHS trt - the 'solution' to increases in E2 levels tends to be a reduction of Test or a suggestion to try supplementing with Zinc.

If you want an AI it may be best to buy one privately mate. However it costs nothing to ask your doctor first.


----------



## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

If you are within range it is likely they wont modify your TRT.

Unless you suspect libido might be an issue.


----------



## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

My ertrogen level was 152 pml/l (22-162) so i have been taking aromasin at 10mg EOD for a week now to lower it how long will it take before it start to work and lowers my estrogen was thinking of checkin my Levels again how long will it take before the levels drop thanks guys


----------



## buddha (Sep 13, 2010)

big vin said:


> i have not been on anything for last 10 months i went to see an endocrologist 6 months ago he told me that i may still have some androgens in my body still which will be supressing the natural testosterone he said its just a case of wait and see if i recover i never taken any nolva clomid ever my endo has not avised any of these these are my blood test results that were done last week testoterone 1.7 nmol/l (10.0-37.0) shgb 30 (11-71) fsh 28 (1.0-11.0) lh 12 (1.0-8.0) as you can see testosterone extremely low and fsh and lh very high can you help


I have seen that there are 5 more pages to read but in my little experience your body is trying to get things back up but your testicles are not cooperating.

Probably HCG should be useful


----------



## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

My ertrogen level was 152 pml/l (22-162) so i have been taking aromasin at 10mg EOD for a week now to lower it how long will it take before it start to work and lowers my estrogen was thinking of checkin my Levels again how long will it take before the levels drop thanks guys


----------



## Suitelf11 (Jul 7, 2010)

I guess it was 3-4 days after first administration. Not sure..


----------



## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

Suitelf11 said:


> I guess it was 3-4 days after first administration. Not sure..


hello my friends as a few of you know i have now been no trt of sustanon 250 i jab a fortnight for the last few months after a year of very low test . i decided to do a cycle which of four weeks of dianabol at 30mg a day and ten weeks of test e at 500mg a week i am now into my forth week what i want to know should i still be running my sustanon alongside this cycle or should i not take the sustanon and just r

http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/


----------



## Suitelf11 (Jul 7, 2010)

Drop the sust. 

Btw, on the Dutch board someone posted that his endocrinologist discourages sust for TRT, and advices test enth. I don't know the exact reason.


----------



## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

I would keep the sust in there myself.


----------



## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

sorry im going post this again as it only posted half of my message

as you know i have been on trt for the last few months because of low test of sustanon 250 1 jab every fortnight

I decided to do a 10 week course of dianabol 30mg a day for four weeks and test e 500mg for ten weeks im now into my forth week I was just wondering should i continue to use the sustanon or drop it and go back on it after my course as finished ? as always i will be very gratefull for your replies

thanks guys


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## vetran (Oct 17, 2009)

well personally for me what i do is go back on the sust 3 weeks after last jab.although i am now experimenting on doing it after five weeks


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

ok mate so why you recommend that ?


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## vetran (Oct 17, 2009)

just trying to see what works best for me ,if i can get morning wood off 250mg test every five weeks then thats fine with me lol i am like 50 ha ha


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

is that all you are using 250 mg every fives weeks i dont follow?


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Your sust is replacing your endo production of testosterone,

Why not run it as it is replacing endo production?

This is like running 500 test with TRT and some dbol.

Sounds good to me.

For a guy your size, having that much muscle, you are good to go.

I'd do what you are doing, with the exception of running an AI.


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## vetran (Oct 17, 2009)

no mate i have been on 500mg every 2 weeks before now trt/hrt but like i say trying to cut down and see what i can get away with


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

hackskii said:


> Your sust is replacing your endo production of testosterone,
> 
> Why not run it as it is replacing endo production?
> 
> ...


i been running aromasin for four weeks now with the dianabol i have finished the dianabol should i drop the aromasin now mate?


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

vetran said:


> no mate i have been on 500mg every 2 weeks before now trt/hrt but like i say trying to cut down and see what i can get away with


That's not TRT doses.

That is a mild test cycle.


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## vetran (Oct 17, 2009)

i know but i am a heavy user coming to the end of my time trying to come of the best i can


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

big vin said:


> i been running aromasin for four weeks now with the dianabol i have finished the dianabol should i drop the aromasin now mate?


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

vetran said:


> i know but i am a heavy user coming to the end of my time trying to come of the best i can


The best is inside.

Happiness is within.

Take a moment to feel it.


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

shall i be running pct at some stage hackskii bearing in mind after this cycle of dbol and test e i will be still using sustanon at my trt dose ?


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

No need, you will be on TRT for life.


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

ah cool thanks for your answer again my friend


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## Jay Walker (Jun 24, 2003)

I wont run Deca ever again, I realise you have done along time on gear without any PCT, Bigvin, but deca must be a contributing factor to this total shutdown.

Like you say, 10 years ago places like this didnt exist. Its good that alot more people are getting more educated about Steroids now, myself included, as I have been reckless in the past.

Alot of helpful folk on here.


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## jamesv (Jul 12, 2010)

mate, i read a few of the pages. i can see why you post stuff 3 times in half hour etc.. and to the people that are calling you arrogant etc they are cocks. jesus, you are obviously very worried about the state fo your test. IMO i would listen to the doctor. the people who think they know more than the doctors are the arrogant ones. it is true that over time the body will naturally level out the test levels. however if your looking for a quick fix, i wouldnt rely on what a few people are saying. it may not work for you. go and do some proper research, there is alot of info out there.

finally, i hope this is a lesson to everyone about the importance of PCT i cant actually believe you did AAS for that long and only now have your test levels gone that low.

PCT PCT PCT PCT PCT PCT

hope everything works out for you mate, i would be ****ing upset if that happened to me.

but look on the bright side, you are a tank!


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## Mars (Aug 25, 2007)

IAIN1978 said:


> I can fully understand how you must have been feeling over the past few months big vin as I too am experiencing a similar problem. I have been in contact with a private doctor in Wales where they offer private blood testing and advice on the results. * From what I have learned, in time your body should correct itself but this can take several months if not years.* It is frustrating when you follow recommended PCT protocols but achieve no results. One medication I have not tried is HMG which I am currently looking into. I have read this drug can be useful when the HCG alone has been unsuccessful.
> 
> Hi, msg to big vin...... Why is it you wont ever recover with or without the use of meds? I've read after stopping the use of AAS the body will adjust itself over time. Have you tried HMG combined with HCG/Clomid/Nolvadex?


Or never, sadly. If Vin is not (like i said early on in this thread) producing Egr transcription factors, or for that matter there are problems with cyclic AMP formation which again sadly is very likely.


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## dirtman (Aug 19, 2009)

Superb thread,took me best part of an hour to read that!...was better than a feature film..from frustration, suspicion, anger, empathy ive felt it all from this thread!

A truly delicious read! :thumb:


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## holyroider (Aug 24, 2011)

Hope u get better mate


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## BIG BUCK (Mar 26, 2010)

Mars said:


> Edit that mate.
> 
> This is what happens when you don't know what you are doing :cursing: .


x2 what a ridiculous thing to generalise


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## BIG BUCK (Mar 26, 2010)

just read the first and last page, Back on the gear after all those problems, wow!


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

Just an update been nearly a year since i comented on this thread i have been diagnosed with primary hypogonadism wich means my testicles will never produce testosterone so im on trt for life .


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## NOTHING CHANGES (May 16, 2012)

I feel for you mate :sad:


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## Andy Dee (Jun 1, 2008)

am i right in assuming NPP will have the same suppression as deca then?


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

BB2 said:


> just read the first and last page, Back on the gear after all those problems, wow!


It did not matter whether io went back on the gear or not as the damage is now done i been diagnosed with primary hypogonadism so im on trt for life anyway .


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## Bigdawg2k11 (Mar 2, 2011)

big vin said:


> Just an update been nearly a year since i comented on this thread i have been diagnosed with primary hypogonadism wich means my testicles will never produce testosterone so im on trt for life .


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## Andy Dee (Jun 1, 2008)

after reading this thread, i am now for the first time ever seriously considering PCT's in my cycles.


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## AnotherLevel (Mar 27, 2012)

Can somebody provide a summary of this thread? Don't fancy reading 49 pages! Saw a few posts, did OP basically run cycles for years without a PCT and now is on TRT for life? Could something like this happen even if you use PCTs? Chances?


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## Elvis82 (Mar 23, 2012)

Ha ha, tell him again! And again! And again! Oh.....and again! Love it


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## Andy Dee (Jun 1, 2008)

AnotherLevel said:


> Can somebody provide a summary of this thread? Don't fancy reading 49 pages! Saw a few posts, did OP basically run cycles for years without a PCT and now is on TRT for life? Could something like this happen even if you use PCTs? Chances?


yes and yes.

i have no intentions of having kids in the future, thats not what really bothers me, but the thought of never being able to shoot any spunk ever again is like watching a car crash.


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## LittleT (May 2, 2011)

Having a good PCT is serious business !!


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

LittleT said:


> Having a good PCT is serious business !!


i been on trt for 2 years now doing one shot of sus 250 every 2 weeks im 45 all is well now as soon as i took the first shot of the sustanon my test levels rose and my ejaculate came back im still training and still making gains , i supose one the good side of all this my test levels will remain quite high for as long as i continue with this trt which i have been prescribed for life so even when im older when test naturally drops mine will stay within range


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

big vin said:


> i been on trt for 2 years now doing one shot of sus 250 every 2 weeks im 45 all is well now as soon as i took the first shot of the sustanon my test levels rose and my ejaculate came back im still training and still making gains , i supose one the good side of all this my test levels will remain quite high for as long as i continue with this trt which i have been prescribed for life so even when im older when test naturally drops mine will stay within range


Upper end of range at that.

You are taking double what most will prescribe here in the States.


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## huarache (May 28, 2012)

is this guy still alive?


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

hackskii said:


> Upper end of range at that.
> 
> You are taking double what most will prescribe here in the States.


dont be ridiculous my endo prescribes sustanon to thousands of patients he tells me the usual dosage he prescribes is 1ml of sustanon 250 every 2 to 3 weeks thats the nhs protocol .


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

sckeane said:


> is this guy still alive?[/quote
> 
> is which guy still alive ?


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

big vin said:


> dont be ridiculous my endo prescribes sustanon to thousands of patients he tells me the usual dosage he prescribes is 1ml of sustanon 250 every 2 to 3 weeks thats the nhs protocol .


Oh sorry, just read that again, I thought you said 250 a week at first.

TRT in the states is anywhere from 65 to 125 a week depending on the doctor.


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## schloopy joe (Feb 2, 2012)

Big Vin everyone thought you died and withered away!


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## schloopy joe (Feb 2, 2012)

Glad you're ok.


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

hackskii said:


> Oh sorry, just read that again, I thought you said 250 a week at first.
> 
> TRT in the states is anywhere from 65 to 125 a week depending on the doctor.[/QUOT
> 
> sorry hackskii i did not know it was you who posted that comment im sorry if i sounded a bit abrupt as you are one of the most knowledgeable and helpfull people on this forum .


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

big vin said:


> sorry hackskii i did not know it was you who posted that comment im sorry if i sounded a bit abrupt as you are one of the most knowledgeable and helpfull people on this forum .


Its ok boss, I have pretty thick skin, if I make a mistake I have no problems either apologizing or correcting the problem.

I don't know why I read that the way I did, probably just read it too fast before I figured out what you said:lol:

Sorry

250 sust every 2 weeks would be perfect IMO, that with the long esters should make it very stable and no crashes.

Back in the day TRT dosing protocols from Upjohn Testosterone Cypionate were 100mg per week, 200mg every 2 weeks, and 300mg every 3 weeks.

Problem was that the 300mg shots the guys went nuts with very high testosterone levels that caused the libido to soar, then by the middle of week 2 crash with testosterone levels below base.

Once endo doctors talked to their guys, they realized that 100mg a week was the best approach and even guys felt a bit low by next shot.

One way around the dip in low T levels was to sub-Q the TRT so it will release a bit slower keeping things from spiking and dropping.

Or, low dose HCG at 250 to 350iu day of jab (T levels will be low), and day 6 and 7 to kind of iron out the low times the gear gets in the system, and clearance time.

I generally am not abrupt, sorry if you thought I was, I just read your post wrong.

I do know guys self medicating and saying they are on TRT when they are taking 250mg a week. That is not TRT, more is not always better here, many issues over long periods of time may or may not manafest.

Quality of life is no better on 250 a week than 125, in fact over time many men with too high of androgens end up with erectile issues, and compromised libido.


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## huarache (May 28, 2012)

big vin said:


> You, I see you are.. was curious


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

sckeane said:


> why would i not be alive ?


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## huarache (May 28, 2012)

big vin said:


> .....reading the first few pages would explain why in my opinion..


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

sckeane said:


> you not making any sense obviously you are thick


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## Mish (May 1, 2011)

big vin said:


> Oh yeah obviously :001_tt2:
> 
> The first few posts of yours you sounded near suicidal and like a lost child


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## Andy Dee (Jun 1, 2008)




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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)




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## Andy Dee (Jun 1, 2008)

not really sure what went wrong with my above quote but that was suppose to be for someone else.


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## huarache (May 28, 2012)

Mish said:


> Couldn't of put it better myself


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## huarache (May 28, 2012)

big vin said:


> 40,000 views 700 replies and your reply is the one and only ridiculous one you muppet


Nothing ridiculous here. But I'll narrow that quote down mr rude

40,000 views - reason, cause of the title of your thread and unreal situation you for some reason put yourself in out of... Laziness? Obnoxiousness? Whatever the case wasn't the smartest to do 10 years worth of gear without PCT even I know that and I'm still a 'naive' teen as people would probably say.

700 replies over what 2/3years? reason - cause from what it looks like everyone was putting their hand out with advice and helpful ways to sort yourself out with a proper Post cycle therapy programme to follow from the pros who know what their doing, but you kept asking the same question.. Re-posting, being impatient, maybe rude at some times and not taking the advice given.

No need to be rude in the first place is there, I was curious if you were still alive as I read and saw you were ****ed and losing your mind about the situation you got in, that is all. Stress head. Stop taking that squash.


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## jimmystar (Oct 22, 2005)

Hello Big Vin , do you actually have to go to the docs every two weeks to get the shots or will they let you do it your self ?

And is it free ?


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)




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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

jimmystar said:


> Hello Big Vin , do you actually have to go to the docs every two weeks to get the shots or will they let you do it your self ?
> 
> And is it free ?


yes its free and i can either do it myself or i can go docs every two weeks and a nurse does it for me good thing is its british sustanon highest pharmecutical grade lol


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## m118 (Feb 4, 2011)

big vin said:


> yes its free and i can either do it myself or i can go docs every two weeks and a nurse does it for me good thing is its british sustanon highest pharmecutical grade lol


wow, im impressed you got some. i heard that there was shortage of that across the UK


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

m118 said:


> wow, im impressed you got some. i heard that there was shortage of that across the UK


yes there has been a shortage but im led to believe its only temporary although its been going on for months ... i managed to find a pharmacy that had quite a bit of stock so my gp gave me a prescription for 50 amps that will keep me going for a long time


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## huarache (May 28, 2012)




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## pariah (May 8, 2008)

Soooooo, is blast / cruising a bad idea then? Ive basically been on for 10 months now using test/deca/tren.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

pariah said:


> Soooooo, is blast / cruising a bad idea then? Ive basically been on for 10 months now using test/deca/tren.


What are your thoughts on this?


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## SATANSEVILTWIN (Feb 22, 2012)

hackskii said:


> What are your thoughts on this?


see big vins quandary:cursing:


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

SATANSEVILTWIN said:


> see big vins quandary:cursing:


I wanted it to come from the other dudes mouth. :lol:


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## Singhbuilder (Oct 12, 2010)

Its funny how everyone is recomending my original comments on dividing the doses for more frequent injections and sustained blood levels yet I was laughed off by Big Vin and others last time I was on here.

Anyway, have you not considered Hackski's PCT protocol?

SB


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## Yoshi (Oct 4, 2011)

And I thought I was an idiot..


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## huarache (May 28, 2012)

MacUK said:


> And I thought I was an idiot..


Lool


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## Andy Dee (Jun 1, 2008)

pariah said:


> Soooooo, is blast / cruising a bad idea then? Ive basically been on for 10 months now using test/deca/tren.


not for you no, just make sure you have your trt planned out for when you come off.


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## Speedway (Nov 25, 2011)

Just read the whole way through this thread, very interesting stuff, this board is very lucky to have guys like Hackskii around, what a legend.


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## Yoshi (Oct 4, 2011)

andysutils said:


> not for you no, just make sure you have your trt planned out for when you come off.


I blast and cruise and I've never used trt? Just use Scott's power pct and use hcg all the way through...


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## Andy Dee (Jun 1, 2008)

MacUK said:


> I blast and cruise and I've never used trt? Just use Scott's power pct and use hcg all the way through...


and does that blast and cruise include deca and tren all year round?

Yes hacksii's power pct is great and a wealth of knowledge without a doubt, but do not be fooled into thinking you can run sh1t loads of gear none stop all year round every year and think a power PCT is gonna save you as for the OP it was to little to late.

HCG also great but your still not producing your own LH and your still shutdown regardless.

I done a blast and cruise once and it just made me ill. For me its not an option.


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## Yoshi (Oct 4, 2011)

andysutils said:


> and does that blast and cruise include deca and tren all year round?
> 
> Yes hacksii's power pct is great and a wealth of knowledge without a doubt, but do not be fooled into thinking you can run sh1t loads of gear none stop all year round every year and think a power PCT is gonna save you as for the OP it was to little to late.
> 
> ...


Interesting, I know a lot of bbers who use blast and cruise and I havnt had a problem before and well yes I use deca and tren but use short eaters over long,

Ausbuilt had a theory if he ran Clomid 50mg eod his balls didn't shrink...


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## Andy Dee (Jun 1, 2008)

MacUK said:


> Interesting, I know a lot of bbers who use blast and cruise and I havnt had a problem before and well yes I use deca and tren but use short eaters over long,
> 
> Ausbuilt had a theory if he ran Clomid 50mg eod his balls didn't shrink...


im not saying you will have a problem either mate, im just saying if your not prepared for the possibility you might have to be on Trt for life because you might not recover, i wouldn't go down this road but each to there own, if it works for you and your happy then theres nothing wrong with it.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

MacUK said:


> Ausbuilt had a theory if he ran Clomid 50mg eod his balls didn't shrink...


This is unsubstantiated and not ever proved by one single person.

Due to the fact that leydig cells only comprise about 10% of the mass of the testicles suggests the size of the testicles are a poor gauge of shutdown.

I have said it before and I will say it again using clomid during cycle will not keep nor maintain testicular function.

HCG can maintain testicular function (for testosterone only) during a cycle.

This is all common sense guys, too bad that is not common. :lol:


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## Andy Dee (Jun 1, 2008)

hackskii said:


> I have said it before and I will say it again using clomid during cycle will not keep nor maintain testicular function.
> 
> HCG can maintain testicular function (for testosterone only) during a cycle.
> 
> This is all common sense guys, too bad that is not common. :lol:


its very common to me, i just couldn't be assed saying the same thing for the 10000000th time because noone would have believed me anyway lol :lol:


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

andysutils said:


> its very common to me, i just couldn't be assed saying the same thing for the 10000000th time because noone would have believed me anyway lol :lol:


I would have believed you.


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## Yoshi (Oct 4, 2011)

Or... Never come off and blast and cruise forever lol


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## JuiCed-uK (Feb 7, 2012)

cba to read all the thread but lol 10 years of test and deca, no PCT ever and wants to recover!! Hope you got kids man or at least dont want any!


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

JuiCed-uK said:


> cba to read all the thread but lol 10 years of test and deca, no PCT ever and wants to recover!! Hope you got kids man or at least dont want any!


another persn who dont know what hes talking about , if you read all the thread you will know im on trt , test produces sperm .


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

Singhbuilder said:


> Its funny how everyone is recomending my original comments on dividing the doses for more frequent injections and sustained blood levels yet I was laughed off by Big Vin and others last time I was on here.
> 
> Anyway, have you not considered Hackski's PCT protocol?
> 
> SB


no you said that you have never heard of anyone taking trt sustanon once a fortnight .. lol thats the basic protocol all over the world and you advised me to take 1ml of sustanon every other day lol that would send my test through the roof , you clearly have no understanding about trt .


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

big vin said:


> another persn who dont know what hes talking about , if you read all the thread you will know im on trt , test produces sperm .


Vin exogenous testosterone does not produce any sperm.

FSH is the chemical hormone that gets sent to the seroli cells to produce sperm, ITT or intra-testicular testosterone is needed for sperm, one does not get this from exogenous administration of testosterone.

Fertility should be an issue for guys on TRT if they want to have children.


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

hackskii said:


> Vin exogenous testosterone does not produce any sperm.
> 
> FSH is the chemical hormone that gets sent to the seroli cells to produce sperm, ITT or intra-testicular testosterone is needed for sperm, one does not get this from exogenous administration of testosterone.
> 
> Fertility should be an issue for guys on TRT if they want to have children.


hackskii i can speak from experience when my test levels were very low i was not producing any ejaculate fluid for many months , in other words when i had sex nothing came out, after i started my trt within days my ejaculate fluid returned so maybe im getting ejaculate fluid mixed up with sperm correct me if im wrong .


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

big vin said:


> hackskii i can speak from experience when my test levels were very low i was not producing any ejaculate fluid for many months , in other words when i had sex nothing came out, after i started my trt within days my ejaculate fluid returned so maybe im getting ejaculate fluid mixed up with sperm correct me if im wrong .


Much of the fluid comes from the prostate.

It is well known that steroids cause fertility issues in men, and depending on the men like Asians for example it is worse.

You could have a bucket of ejac fluid and nothing is swimming inside.


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## Singhbuilder (Oct 12, 2010)

big vin said:


> no you said that you have never heard of anyone taking trt sustanon once a fortnight .. lol thats the basic protocol all over the world and you advised me to take 1ml of sustanon every other day lol that would send my test through the roof , you clearly have no understanding about trt .


1ml every other day? I cant recall saying this. I said split your 1ml into every other day injections to keep stable blood levels. Some people just cant be helped.

Good luck anyway.

SB


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

Singhbuilder said:


> 1ml every other day? I cant recall saying this. I said split your 1ml into every other day injections to keep stable blood levels. Some people just cant be helped.
> 
> Good luck anyway.
> 
> SB


So you say splitting my once fortnightlty dose 1ml into every other day does that means 1ml divided my 7 that would mean doses of 0.14ml every other day .. how am i meant to inject 0.14ml its like 2 or 3 drops it cant be done .

and you also said you had a medical degree and you have never ever seen sustanon prescribed at once every 2 weeks , thats ludicrous sustanon is made for trt purposes and the basic protocol is 1ml every 2-3 weeks thats what is prescribed by endos all over the world .


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

I would never do EOD shots for TRT, that defeats the whole purpose of long term use of steroids to replace natty T levels.

That would give you more scar tissue than a junkie.


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

Bloody hell this post I started is nearly five years old now with over 65,000 views


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## Beefcake91 (May 30, 2016)

And what was the general consensus?

I intend to stay on for a a good while and blast pct when i decide to come off. Fertility isnt my concern. I have two kids and im done.

Did you recover in the end?


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

Beefcake91 said:


> And what was the general consensus?
> 
> I intend to stay on for a a good while and blast pct when i decide to come off. Fertility isnt my concern. I have two kids and im done.
> 
> Did you recover in the end?


 No I never recovered I have been on trt for the last five years


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## Beefcake91 (May 30, 2016)

big vin said:


> No I never recovered I have been on trt for the last five years


 Self administered or via nhs?


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## big vin (Apr 18, 2010)

Beefcake91 said:


> Self administered or via nhs?


 Nhs


----------

