# confused - in need of someone experienced



## Roots (Nov 8, 2013)

I have searched but cannot find any definite answers..

I ask you experienced guys to walk down memory lane (back to your virgin/newbie days and share your knowledge end experience)..!! :tongue:

I'm a newbie to the world of bodybuilding, my goal to gain mass and build good muscle toned body (like most peeps)..

1. I have decided to do compound exercises the basics on a 3 day split, I want to find out the "factors" I must take into consideration when deciding to choose between 3sets of 10/12 reps or the 5x5..??

2. The same question but to do with rest period between sets. In the 3x10 it states 60 secs & the 5x5 it states 5 mins..??

What are the implications or purposes of such "different values".. How and what shall I use, what's the crucial factor....


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## supermancss (Dec 2, 2008)

5x5 is a typical amount of reps if you're looking to go for strength gains.

10-12 reps is more of a bodybuilding amount of reps.

can't really tell you the reason why exactly though.

5mins per set on 5x5 is a load of sh1t. 2mins max otherwise you'll be at the gym all day


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## Kimball (Feb 26, 2012)

I wait 30 secs to 2 mins between sets, until I'm recovered enough to get the max from the next set. Rest period depends how much the set strains me, squats 2 mins, leg raises 30 secs.


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## Roots (Nov 8, 2013)

Kimball said:


> I wait 30 secs to 2 mins between sets, until I'm recovered enough to get the max from the next set. Rest period depends how much the set strains me, squats 2 mins, leg raises 30 secs.





supermancss said:


> 5x5 is a typical amount of reps if you're looking to go for strength gains.
> 
> 10-12 reps is more of a bodybuilding amount of reps.
> 
> ...


CHEERS LADS.. :thumb:

one question before I go.. When will I know or when should I move to next weight up.. If I do each exercise with correct form, all reps & sets clean > is that indicator to add extra weight..?? If not what....

Thanks


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## monkeybiker (Jul 21, 2010)

Yes, once you get all your sets/reps you are ready to use more weight next workout. You don't need to worry too much about the exact details of the workout. The effort you put in is the main factor not the little training details.


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## Queenie (May 30, 2013)

Roots said:


> CHEERS LADS.. :thumb:
> 
> one question before I go.. When will I know or when should I move to next weight up.. If I do each exercise with correct form, all reps & sets clean > is that indicator to add extra weight..?? If not what....
> 
> Thanks


If you can finish a set, put the weight up.

If you can only manage 4 out of 5 reps, go for more reps next week.

I like that u said 'correct form' - don't overlook it


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## Roots (Nov 8, 2013)

RXQueenie said:


> If you can finish a set, put the weight up.
> 
> If you can only manage 4 out of 5 reps, go for more reps next week.
> 
> I like that u said 'correct form' - don't overlook it


Lads much appreciated..:thumbup:

By the way did you mean finish all 3 sets of any exercise (you said a set) then add weight..??

I'm thinking 3 complete sets 10/10/10 with perfect form > then add weight..

Otherwise if I'm not completing 3 "full" sets 10/10/9 reps then stay on same weight..

What do you guys think..???



I believe getting these basics right can be all the difference between maximum gains  & wasting time :banghead:

internet searches can be full of bull blah blah..

experienced knowledge from you guys is crucial !!!


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## Queenie (May 30, 2013)

Roots said:


> Lads much appreciated..:thumbup:
> 
> By the way did you mean finish all 3 sets of any exercise (you said a set) then add weight..??
> 
> ...


Refusing to interact seeing as u just called me a 'lad'


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## Kimball (Feb 26, 2012)

Roots said:


> Lads much appreciated..:thumbup:
> 
> By the way did you mean finish all 3 sets of any exercise (you said a set) then add weight..??
> 
> ...


If you complete 3 sets at full reps move up a weight next week and don't move down again unless you drop below 6 reps.


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## simonthepieman (Jun 11, 2012)

www.stronglifts.com

there are a lot of your answer in one neat place for the 5 x 5


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## Roots (Nov 8, 2013)

RXQueenie said:


> Refusing to interact seeing as u just called me a 'lad'


I called you "lad" which was correct..

L.ady A.nd D.azzling

(Unintentionally accept my apologies.. Not in the habit of reading profiles)


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## Roots (Nov 8, 2013)

simonthepieman said:


> www.stronglifts.com
> 
> there are a lot of your answer in one neat place for the 5 x 5


Cheers..

By the way I did download his pdf ... Cheese it's a long read :banghead:


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## Roots (Nov 8, 2013)

Sorry peeps..

Just one last question before I go..

I've started the basics training programme, compounds.

Day A

Squats, Bench P, Pendlay Rows,

Day B

Dead Lifts, Over head shoulder press, pull ups/Lat down pulls,

3 day split alternating routine ABA BAB

Any thing missing (30 mins max)


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## romper stomper (Sep 26, 2012)

> www.stronglifts.com
> 
> there are a lot of your answer in one neat place for the 5 x 5


5x5 is *NOT THE BEST PROGRAM TO START BODYBUILDING !!! *- i get sick of listening to it in this section - many many many on here recommend it - due to ease, a lack of knowledge, lack of inventiveness and experience- give a link - out of the dozens and dozens of bodybuilding books / articles and studies only Pavel Tsatsouline is one to state start with 5x5 and all the bodybuilders I know (which include national and international champions and coaches) never started with 5x5 - Arnold - Ronnie, Branch and many on here/other sites do not recommend 5x5 as a start to bodybuilding !!!.


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## Ginger Ben (Oct 5, 2010)

romper stomper said:


> 5x5 is *NOT THE BEST PROGRAM TO START BODYBUILDING !!! *- i get sick of listening to it in this section - many many many on here recommend it - due to ease, a lack of knowledge, lack of inventiveness and experience- give a link - out of the dozens and dozens of bodybuilding books / articles and studies only Pavel Tsatsouline is one to state start with 5x5 and all the bodybuilders I know (which include national and international champions and coaches) never started with 5x5 - Arnold - Ronnie, Branch and many on here/other sites do not recommend 5x5 as a start to bodybuilding !!!.


So your enlightened recommendation is...?


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## chrisch (Mar 11, 2011)

romper stomper said:


> 5x5 is *NOT THE BEST PROGRAM TO START BODYBUILDING !!! *- i get sick of listening to it in this section - many many many on here recommend it - due to ease, a lack of knowledge, lack of inventiveness and experience- give a link - out of the dozens and dozens of bodybuilding books / articles and studies only Pavel Tsatsouline is one to state start with 5x5 and all the bodybuilders I know (which include national and international champions and coaches) never started with 5x5 - Arnold - Ronnie, Branch and many on here/other sites do not recommend 5x5 as a start to bodybuilding !!!.


Totally agree with you. While IMO a full body work out to start is the right way to start, but with lower weight and higher reps (3x10/12) until till good technique, form and a base strength is reached then start to look at something like 5x5 were heavier weights are needed and with out a bit of back ground you are more likely to get hurt.


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## Queenie (May 30, 2013)

Roots said:


> I called you "lad" which was correct..
> 
> L.ady A.nd D.azzling
> 
> (Unintentionally accept my apologies.. Not in the habit of reading profiles)


Ok.

Whatever training program u do... as i said before just get in the right mindset - that's really important. Chase progression in reps or weights each session.


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## simonthepieman (Jun 11, 2012)

Ginger Ben said:


> So your enlightened recommendation is...?


He does this all the time.

Moans without giving explanations. Throws in made up facts with out backing it up.

He also never posts pics or lifts.

Reliable?


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## Queenie (May 30, 2013)

simonthepieman said:


> He does this all the time.
> 
> Moans without giving explanations. Throws in made up facts with out backing it up.
> 
> ...


He just likes to go against the grain (which is fine) - but the attitude that comes with it, not so much.

Btw - u going to gymbox party Friday?


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## simonthepieman (Jun 11, 2012)

RXQueenie said:


> He just likes to go against the grain (which is fine) - but the attitude that comes with it, not so much.
> 
> Btw - u going to gymbox party Friday?


No. I've actually not been to any of them.

Are you sneaking in?


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## Queenie (May 30, 2013)

simonthepieman said:


> No. I've actually not been to any of them.
> 
> Are you sneaking in?


Sneaking in? I got an invite from the manager of Westfield that interviewed me  I don't know why I thought u were a member. Sorry dude.


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## simonthepieman (Jun 11, 2012)

RXQueenie said:


> Sneaking in? I got an invite from the manager of Westfield that interviewed me  I don't know why I thought u were a member. Sorry dude.


I am a member. I didn't think you were though 

Are you going for a job there

I have plans


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## JANIKvonD (Jul 7, 2011)

IMO you're thinking too much....& i get the vibe you're not as dumb to this as you're making out tbh. just get in the gym & start lifting weight, you'll be shaking like a new born deer during most of the movements & all over the place with the free weights to start with anyway.

id do-

chest & triceps (monday)

flys

3sets of 12

flat BB

5sets of 10

ISO press-

6sets of 6

back & biceps (wednesday)

bent over DB rows

3sets of 12

deads

5sets of 10

chins (or underhand pulldowns if u cant do them)-

6sets of 6

legs (friday)

machine press-

3sets of 12

squats

5sets of 10

hams-

3sets of 12

calfs

3sets of 12

**this was my starting routine**

stick with it for a couple month...constantly be looking to up the weight. if i just done my first set of 10 & it was EASY id up the weight for the second...common sense tbh. if u fail at a weight..dont drop to a lower weight & try finish your set (which i see alot of ppl doing)....just lower the weight & rest as normal. a lot of ppl time there rests....i dont, i go when i feel im rested enough to complete the set properly (dont take the p!ss & blether to you're mate for 20min) keep it intense but no point attempting your next set of 10squats & you're gasping for breath. again common sense.

after a couple month in the gym (consistantly) & you can actually control the weight & have a bit better base for it....then you can look to a program that suits you're goals.....as well as a diet.


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## Queenie (May 30, 2013)

simonthepieman said:


> I am a member. I didn't think you were though
> 
> Are you going for a job there
> 
> I have plans


I've been for two interviews at Westfield and holborn - got neither positions but they know im keen to be involved with the brand so I guess they're humouring me


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## simonthepieman (Jun 11, 2012)

RXQueenie said:


> I've been for two interviews at Westfield and holborn - got neither positions but they know im keen to be involved with the brand so I guess they're humouring me


Are you going for PT or staff roles?

Give me a shout if you are ever at the central ones (farringdon, bank, holborn)

I would love to see your snatch. Errrr seriously  I want to start working on oly lifts and need some coaching for snatches


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## Queenie (May 30, 2013)

simonthepieman said:


> Are you going for PT or staff roles?
> 
> Give me a shout if you are ever at the central ones (farringdon, bank, holborn)
> 
> I would love to see your snatch. Errrr seriously  I want to start working on oly lifts and need some coaching for snatches


They were staff roles but now I'm doing my PT and bwl coaching, may as well just wait until qualified and apply for those roles  still good to band my face around the place in the mean time


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## simonthepieman (Jun 11, 2012)

RXQueenie said:


> They were staff roles but now I'm doing my PT and bwl coaching, may as well just wait until qualified and apply for those roles  still good to band my face around the place in the mean time


It certainly is who you know.


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## stoatman (Sep 13, 2012)

Only thing I would chirp in with is, if you do 3x10 sets then increase weight. Your prob going to not be able to exert max effort on the heavier weight. A train of thought suggests warming up thoroughly , perhaps with a very light weight and then attempting the heavier weights and pyramiding down.Maybe not straight away though if your literally starting out, just lift some metal and eat yourll get bigger. Just something to bear in mind .


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## romper stomper (Sep 26, 2012)

I usually do a 4 day split - a beginner one - example

Monday - Legs

Squats - warm up bar x 50 - 3/4 sets 8-10 reps

Hack Squat / Leg press - 3 sets 8-10 reps (alternate each week)

Leg extension -- 3 sets 8-10 reps

Leg Curls / Good mornings - 3 sets 8-10 reps

Calf Raises - 3-4 sets 15 reps

Tuesday Chest- Bi

Bench press - warm up bar x 50 - 3/4 sets 8-10 reps

Incline DB press-- 3 sets 8-10 reps

Flat/Incline Fly's- 3 sets 8-10 reps

Barbell Curl warm up bar x 20 - 3/4 sets 8-10 reps

DB curl- 3 sets 8-10 reps

Weds- off

Thursday - Back/ Traps

Deadlifts - warm up bar x 50 - 3/4 sets 8-10 reps

Pulldowns/ chins - 3 sets 8-10 reps

Bent over row - 3 sets 8-10 reps

Pullovers - 2 sets x 10-12

Upright row 3 sets - 8-10 reps

DB Shrugs - 3 sets - 8-10 reps

Friday Shoulders- Tri

Military press - 3/4 sets 8-10 reps

Lateral raises 3 sets 8-10 reps

Front raises - 3 sets 8-10 reps

Skull crushers - 3/4 sets 8-10 reps

Tricep press down 3/4 sets 8-10 reps


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## simonthepieman (Jun 11, 2012)

romper stomper said:


> I usually do a 4 day split - a beginner one - example
> 
> Monday - Legs
> 
> ...


I'd swap facepulls for front raises IMO

OR just add in facepulls.


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## Roots (Nov 8, 2013)

Nice programme. Looks really intense


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## Roots (Nov 8, 2013)

Question:

If my main goal is to bulk gain mass & muscles.. Will that mean increasing my frequency (I'm on a 3 day split)..??

I've started the basics training programme, "strict compounds".. Anything else I should add (some exercises from above program look good) 

Is the frequency low for beginner looking to bulk gain mass..:confused:

Day A

Squats, Bench P, Pendlay Rows,

Day B

Dead Lifts, Over head shoulder press, pull ups/Lat down pulls,

3 day split alternating routine ABA BAB


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## BruceT (Jul 26, 2013)

Not necessarily. Everyone reacts differently. As long as you train sensibly and have a calorie surplus, you'll make gains.

It'll depend on how your body reacts to low rep heavy weights versus higher reps, lower weights. That you'll find out with time and patience.


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## Queenie (May 30, 2013)

romper stomper said:


> I usually do a 4 day split - a beginner one - example
> 
> Monday - Legs
> 
> ...


I like the split for an intermediate lifter but don't agree that this is more beneficial than 5x5 for a beginner.


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## Queenie (May 30, 2013)

Roots said:


> Question:
> 
> If my main goal is to bulk gain mass & muscles.. Will that mean increasing my frequency (I'm on a 3 day split)..??
> 
> ...


This sounds awesome! I'd be well excited about this if I were u


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## MRSTRONG (Apr 18, 2009)

Roots said:


> I have searched but cannot find any definite answers..
> 
> I ask you experienced guys to walk down memory lane (back to your virgin/newbie days and share your knowledge end experience)..!! :tongue:
> 
> ...


stick to this for the first 2-3 years http://stronglifts.com/stronglifts-5x5-beginner-strength-training-program/

it has progression programs to take you from newb to advanced .

once you have built a solid foundation you can tweak diet and training to that of a bodybuilding split to then add definition to a muscular frame .


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## josephbloggs (Sep 29, 2013)

romper stomper said:


> I usually do a 4 day split - a beginner one - example
> 
> Monday - Legs
> 
> ...


Good mornings are predominantly a lower back exercise, so not sure why you do these on leg days (if doing them at all)

And upright rows(if going to do them) would be better on shoulder day than back.

I think 5 x 5 is as good a routine as any for a beginner , but as long as you are sufficiently covering all muscle groups don't get caught up in obsessing over which routine . just be consistent with training and diet and the gains will follow.


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## romper stomper (Sep 26, 2012)

> Good mornings are predominantly a lower back exercise, so not sure why you do these on leg days (if doing them at all)


read up as little more on the exercise .



> If my main goal is to bulk gain mass & muscles.. Will that mean increasing my frequency (I'm on a 3 day split)..??


personally I never liked 3 day spits - a 4 day split with 4 main compounds first exercise - Squats - deads- bench - military press - i personally I never mix two of the mains on the same day - there is not too much volume - it all depends on what works for you - you asked for ideas and you have them .

Many builders I know used 4 day splits even when starting. As stated read up on some of the championship bodybuilders and not many start with a 5x5 program that is fact


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## josephbloggs (Sep 29, 2013)

romper stomper said:


> read up as little more on the exercise .
> 
> personally I never liked 3 day spits - a 4 day split with 4 main compounds first exercise - Squats - deads- bench - military press - i personally I never mix two of the mains on the same day - there is not too much volume - it all depends on what works for you - you asked for ideas and you have them .
> 
> Many builders I know used 4 day splits even when starting. As stated read up on some of the championship bodybuilders and not many start with a 5x5 program that is fact


Don't need to mate. I know good mornings predominately work lower back muscles, yes the hamstrings/glutes are also involved, but it would be the same as doing bench press on shoulder day rather than chest.

SLDL would be a far better choice( amongst others) for hams.


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## Bad Alan (Dec 30, 2010)

romper stomper said:


> read up as little more on the exercise .
> 
> personally I never liked 3 day spits - a 4 day split with 4 main compounds first exercise - Squats - deads- bench - military press - i personally I never mix two of the mains on the same day - there is not too much volume - it all depends on what works for you - you asked for ideas and you have them .
> 
> Many builders I know used 4 day splits even when starting. As stated read up on some of the championship bodybuilders and not many start with a 5x5 program that is fact


Well yes that's correct because we should all read up what championship bodybuilders do and follow there programs.

If you actually speak to a ton of top bb'ers you will find a surprising amount who started off in performance based or strength focused training.

The volume 4 day split you suggested is an ok program for an intermediate. It has no place in offering or teaching someone to train progressively. I find suggesting "working upto a hard set of 10 over the course of three sets" works better than "3x8-10" so maybe consider this next time you hand out your program to a beginner.

The reason 5x5 and 5/3/1 etc work so well for people starting out is built in strength progression and a decent amount of time with the big lifts. Focusing on accessory/vanity work after the main bulk of the session is over.


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## Roots (Nov 8, 2013)

So as a beginner i should avoid 5*5 and stick 3*10-12..?? From the last few posts there's difference of opinion if 5*5 is good or not > for "beginners"..



What are "drop sets" & are they a good method for gaining mass (as read on the internet)


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## Queenie (May 30, 2013)

Roots said:


> So as a beginner i should avoid 5*5 and stick 3*10-12..?? From the last few posts there's difference of opinion if 5*5 is good or not > for "beginners"..
> 
> 
> 
> What are "drop sets" & are they a good method for gaining mass (as read on the internet)


No... u should definitely consider 5x5!


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## stoatman (Sep 13, 2012)

2 to 3 years of 5 x 5 though would bore me to tears though to be honest. Would put me off a bit, although gains should be good.


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## Bad Alan (Dec 30, 2010)

stoatman said:


> 2 to 3 years of 5 x 5 though would bore me to tears though to be honest. Would put me off a bit, although gains should be good.


Best thing to do is to run cycles of 5x5 then switch to a volume routine to refresh for a few weeks, let connective tissue etc and any niggles repair. Then you can hit another block of 5x5, simple periodisation really.

You can also maybe think of adding a small amount of "vanity" work at the end of the 5x5 workouts or a small amount of work on an additional day.


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## simonthepieman (Jun 11, 2012)

Bad Alan said:


> Best thing to do is to run cycles of 5x5 then switch to a volume routine to refresh for a few weeks, let connective tissue etc and any niggles repair. Then you can hit another block of 5x5, simple periodisation really.
> 
> You can also maybe think of adding a small amount of "vanity" work at the end of the 5x5 workouts or a small amount of work on an additional day.


Spot on advice

Ignore romper stomper he mopes around looking for threads to moan about 5x5.

It's great foe beginners and intermediates.

No need for 2 years of it. You find it will reach its natural course. If you can successfully do it for 2 years you'd be squatting 200kg. You would be small then!


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## romper stomper (Sep 26, 2012)

> If you actually speak to a ton of top bb'ers you will find a surprising amount who started off in performance based or strength focused training.


I have been around the bodybuilding scene for over 25 years - as stated i know personally former national coaches- international champions and trainers / master trainers and coaches/trainers with various degrees - and they know i have a good knowledge -as some on here do as well.

I do/have know many competitors who have switched from a power sports to bodybuilding - so will always recommend a power based program such as 5x5

I know very few of the people i know, and even fewer publications articles and studies that advocate a 5x5 program *strictly for starting bodybuilding *

please post a few names - as I know many who did NOT start out with 5x5 when starting to strictly bodybuild


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## Bad Alan (Dec 30, 2010)

romper stomper said:


> I have been around the bodybuilding scene for over 25 years - as stated i know personally former national coaches- international champions and trainers / master trainers and coaches/trainers with various degrees - and they know i have a good knowledge -as some on here do as well.
> 
> I do/have know many competitors who have switched from a power sports to bodybuilding - so will always recommend a power based program such as 5x5
> 
> ...


You've just agreed with my posts?

"So will always recommend a power based program such as 5x5"

I haven't once stated that anyone I know

or have trained with has started out specifically with 5x5 training. I find the program a good place to start for any beginner as it is a progression based strength program they can follow, focusing on the main lifts. Most people would agree a fantastic starting point for anyone taking up training would be to get stronger on those lifts as a main priority.

Just because it's bodybuilding doesn't mean we need a generic "3x8-10" program with a body part split as you suggested. I even now regularly work in sets of 1-5 as it's important to develop all capabilities a muscle has. Why wouldnt you?

I actually can name drop if you like instead if hinting to knowing people in the industry?

I've talked training regularly and trained with a lot

of top guys; Stu Garrington who's current class1 mr universe pretty much everyday, ifbb pro John Hodgson, ifbb pro Cecil Crossdale, many may discount him but I have Scott Francis on hand 24/7, worked with Shelby Starnes for 5 months on fat loss, speak most days with regular top6 Brits competitor Daz Clemmit, have been around many a 300kg+ squat and plate loaded for workouts at Rahl's gym in Leeds for the powerlifting team headlined by Andy Bolton, tnation article writer Elliot Newman is a former training partner of mine.

Can play all day mate but that's not what it's about at the end of the day 5x5 is a good starting place for many a beginner and you're constant obsession with belittling it in favour of a "cookie cutter" standard volume routine is nonsense.


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## simonthepieman (Jun 11, 2012)

Bad Alan said:


> You've just agreed with my posts?
> 
> "So will always recommend a power based program such as 5x5"
> 
> ...


Well said x2


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## romper stomper (Sep 26, 2012)

> Just because it's bodybuilding doesn't mean we need a generic "3x8-10" program with a body part split as you suggested. I even now regularly work in sets of 1-5 as it's important to develop all capabilities a muscle has. Why wouldnt you?


I very often do but not starting out



> Can play all day mate but that's not what it's about at the end of the day 5x5 is a good starting place for many a beginner and you're constant obsession with belittling it in favour of a "cookie cutter" standard volume routine is nonsense.


well we will agree to disagree on that - and a few posts in a few threads is a constant obsession ???


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## Roots (Nov 8, 2013)

RXQueenie said:


> No... u should definitely consider 5x5!


OK..

But why 5*5 over 3*10/12, don't need the full science behind it but just the basics as to why 5*5 is better..??



stoatman said:


> 2 to 3 years of 5 x 5 though would bore me to tears though to be honest. Would put me off a bit, although gains should be good.


So your opinion for beginners looking to gain mass should start with 5*5, okay good personal opinion. But why 5*5 over 3*10..??

I'm just finding an effective programme for gaining mass as a "beginner"..



(Above everyone has given their opinion but not really backed it up with any facts) which of the two 5*5 or 3*10 is better for beginners.. WHY


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## Queenie (May 30, 2013)

Roots said:


> OK..
> 
> But why 5*5 over 3*10/12, don't need the full science behind it but just the basics as to why 5*5 is better..??
> 
> ...


If you can't understand the above posts by @Bad Alan then by all means stick to x10/12 

5x5 allows u to focus on your compound lifts, progress is easily measured so helps with motivation and (if your diet is right) there is NO way that you would not see gains from this. No way.

BTW - I'd say I'm an intermediate trainer... I'm cutting bf% and I am using 10-15 rep range depending on exercise. Muscle stimuli will need to change at some point. But to add 'mass' as a beginner, high reps is a no no imo.


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## chrisch (Mar 11, 2011)

I still find asking a total newbie to walk in to a gym and lift as heavy weight as they can for 5 reps is not the best start. Totally agree that they should be focused on compound exercises and not worry about 4 day splits etc.. but be using a high rep range and lower weight for a couple months until a understanding of form, technic and a bit of strength.


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## simonthepieman (Jun 11, 2012)

Why a 5 x 5 is good for a beginner

Your early gains will predominantly be neural. Low reps are better for neural adaption.

The more efficient your neural capacity, the more muscle fibers you will recruit in a lift.

When you are ready to up the volume, you are stimulating more muscle and potential for growth and strength is far higher.

-Think of it like increase you BHP.

Getting strong for a starter is not about muscle too. It's about connective tissue, bones density, tendons etc. The stronger these are, the safer you can increase the weight and volume without injury.

-It teaches your body to be more reliable.

A beginner wants to do everything, they are excited by new moves and things that look fancy. For the most part, the things that don't deliver the biggest results. Which has been proven time and time again. Progressive overload with compounds.

By limiting their training to 3 big compounds as the focus they learn that steady, programmed, progressive overload is the key to consistent progress which can be plotted and measured against weight, day and lift they can take a more intelligent approach.

When you introduce multiple variables at the same time you can never be sure what is delivering the results, how the interdependencies in the lift work or even what is the cause of improvements. is it something you have brought in? or most often over looked, left out? Was it the volume, or the weight? This is the same reason why you are taught to no to train to failure as a beginner.

It's tough for intermediates to work this out, let alone beginners

-It very quickly teaches you your weakness, strength and teaches you about your make up

When you lift heavy with a limited amount of exercises. You get good at form quick.

Training Frequency, more importantly, the ability to train more frequency is something that is learned and can be improved. It's a lot quicker to adapt to volume that it is to frequency so it's best to get this in early.

If the same person can do a high volume routine that that would normally take 7 days in 6 or 5 and can recover and and grow the same, you will receive better results by doing it a higher frequency. Frequency is massively underrated.

For the record you don't have to stay on 5 x 5 for a long peroid of time (ie years) not once you stop do you have to retire it for ever, but if you get a beginner to increase in strength, neural capacity, frequency as fast as possible when they move to a volume orientated routine you will be further a long with most likely a better capacity to progress faster.

i.e your foundations are stronger and that what you want to teach a beginner.


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## a.notherguy (Nov 17, 2008)

Roots said:


> Sorry peeps..
> 
> Just one last question before I go..
> 
> ...


i would add dumbell curls (2x8) and calves (2x20) to your A day and dips (2x8) and abs (leg raises or cable crunch for 2 sets) to your B day.


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## a.notherguy (Nov 17, 2008)

simonthepieman said:


> Why a 5 x 5 is good for a beginner
> 
> Your early gains will predominantly be neural. Low reps are better for neural adaption.
> 
> ...


also, starting light and lifting weights (as prescribed by both stronglifts and starting strength) which arent taxing at all for a few sessions is a very good way to learn the movements and form. much better than just going hell for leather from day 1 in the gym and developing bad habits and bad form.


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## Queenie (May 30, 2013)

chrisch said:


> I still find asking a total newbie to walk in to a gym and lift as heavy weight as they can for 5 reps is not the best start. Totally agree that they should be focused on compound exercises and not worry about 4 day splits etc.. but be using a high rep range and lower weight for a couple months until a understanding of form, technic and a bit of strength.


Funny - I guess we all have our own opinions and it depends where we all started from.

I was raised by a pack of Powerlifters... started with 5x5 and evolved from there, and I am truly grateful for that foundation.


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## chrisch (Mar 11, 2011)

RXQueenie said:


> Funny - I guess we all have our own opinions and it depends where we all started from.
> 
> I was raised by a pack of Powerlifters... started with 5x5 and evolved from there, and I am truly grateful for that foundation.


I do agree with you that a Strength based program is the better start, the only thing i would do different for a total newbie is a month or so of higher reps until they have a understanding of lifting weights. Then start with the heavier stuff.

I train heavy weight and low reps myself and this works better by far for me.


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## 2004mark (Oct 26, 2013)

A lot of it would comedown to the individual... if a big strong guy with a 'rugby' type physique that's used to training in general then maybe, but on the whole I but I wouldn't recommend 5x5 to a beginner.

CNS fatigue would be pretty high in an untrained person, I also think it's slightly too intense to learn correct motor patens for lifts that are pretty technical, also just for the individual to lean how to push themselves (a lot of people take this for granted). When you go up a weight you're struggling to get 5 out on your 4th set, never mind the 5th. So not a great environment to learn imo. Introduce after 12 weeks or so if you really want to would be my advice.

I'd normally always suggest a beginner start on a 1/2 of full body workout around the 3x10 rep range 2/3 times a week, then increase up to 4 over 6-8 weeks. If anything just to tighten up the joints and prepare their body for what's to come.


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## simonthepieman (Jun 11, 2012)

chrisch said:


> I do agree with you that a Strength based program is the better start, the only thing i would do different for a total newbie is a month or so of higher reps until they have a understanding of lifting weights. Then start with the heavier stuff.
> 
> I train heavy weight and low reps myself and this works better by far for me.


On a strength routine, you don't have to start heavy. That's a misconception


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## Bad Alan (Dec 30, 2010)

simonthepieman said:


> On a strength routine, you don't have to start heavy. That's a misconception


Totally true it's just about constantly using new loads and this means small progressions.

For people saying learning technique, that's the best thing about 5x5 lots of oractice with the big lifts. Don't know about you but it's easier to keep form and perfect reps when performing a set of 5 as opposed to 15.


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## chrisch (Mar 11, 2011)

simonthepieman said:


> On a strength routine, you don't have to start heavy. That's a misconception


Yes ok thats right I cant disagree with you on that. I guess when i think strength i think heavy.

But going light on a 5x5 routine would not imo bring the gains like it would going heavy, there for higher reps would suit better.


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## simonthepieman (Jun 11, 2012)

chrisch said:


> Yes ok thats right I cant disagree with you on that. I guess when i think strength i think heavy.
> 
> But going light on a 5x5 routine would not imo bring the gains like it would going heavy, there for higher reps would suit better.


Progression. Walk before you run. Then gradually add weight and keep an upward trajectory.

People are chasing a pump, burn or exhaustion.

An extra 2.5kg a week 60kg in 6 months on a single lift or 1500kg volume per lift (5x5).

That's not short change.


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## chrisch (Mar 11, 2011)

simonthepieman said:


> Progression. Walk before you run. Then gradually add weight and keep an upward trajectory.
> 
> People are chasing a pump, burn or exhaustion.
> 
> ...


Mate i agree with what you are saying Strong lifts are the best way to build a good base (5x5). It just imo that someone just starting out would benafit more using 8/10 rep range by means of form and learning the feel of lift weights, then yeah i'm all for 5x5 etc... I myself train low reps heavy weight, normally in the3 to 6 rep range even single reps every now and then.


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## romper stomper (Sep 26, 2012)

please tell me how may of these guys started out and totally advocate 5x5 as the very best base for pure bodybuilding

not strength/power athletes athletes who swapped genres - but pure bodybuilders ??

Year Winner	Location

1965

Larry Scott

New York, USA

1966

Larry Scott

New York, USA

1967

Sergio Oliva

New York, USA

1968

Sergio Oliva

New York, USA

1969

Sergio Oliva

New York, USA

1970

Arnold Schwarzenegger

New York, USA

1971

Arnold Schwarzenegger

Paris, France

1972

Arnold Schwarzenegger

Essen, West Germany

1973

Arnold Schwarzenegger

New York, USA

1974

Arnold Schwarzenegger

New York, USA

1975

Arnold Schwarzenegger

Pretoria, South Africa

1976

Franco Columbu

Columbus, USA

1977

Frank Zane

Columbus, USA

1978

Frank Zane

Columbus, USA

1979

Frank Zane

Columbus, USA

1980

Arnold Schwarzenegger

Sydney Australia

1981

Franco Columbu

Columbus, USA

1982

Chris Dickerson

London, UK

1983

Samir Bannout

Munich, West Germany

1984

Lee Haney

New York, USA

1985

Lee Haney

Brussels, Belgium

1986

Lee Haney

Columbus, USA

1987

Lee Haney

Gothenburg, Sweden

1988

Lee Haney

Los Angeles, USA

1989

Lee Haney

Rimini, Italy

1990

Lee Haney

Chicago, USA

1991

Lee Haney

Orlando, USA

1992

Dorian Yates

Helsinki, Finland

1993

Dorian Yates

Atlanta, USA

1994

Dorian Yates

Atlanta, USA

1995

Dorian Yates

Atlanta, USA

1996

Dorian Yates

Chicago, Illinois, USA

1997

Dorian Yates

Los Angeles, USA

1998

Ronnie Coleman

New York, USA

1999

Ronnie Coleman

Las Vegas, USA

2000

Ronnie Coleman

Las Vegas, USA

2001

Ronnie Coleman

Las Vegas, USA

2002

Ronnie Coleman

Las Vegas, USA

2003

Ronnie Coleman

Las Vegas, USA

2004

Ronnie Coleman

Las Vegas, USA

2005

Ronnie Coleman

Las Vegas, USA

2006

Jay Cutler

Las Vegas, USA

2007

Jay Cutler

Las Vegas, USA

2008

Dexter Jackson

Las Vegas, USA

2009

Jay Cutler

Las Vegas, USA

2010

Jay Cutler

Las Vegas, USA

2011

Phil Heath

Las Vegas, USA

2012

Phil Heath

Las Vegas, USA

2013

Phil Heath

Las Vegas, USA

Year Winner	Location

1965

Larry Scott

New York, USA

1966

Larry Scott

New York, USA

1967

Sergio Oliva

New York, USA

1968

Sergio Oliva

New York, USA

1969

Sergio Oliva

New York, USA

1970

Arnold Schwarzenegger

New York, USA

1971

Arnold Schwarzenegger

Paris, France

1972

Arnold Schwarzenegger

Essen, West Germany

1973

Arnold Schwarzenegger

New York, USA

1974

Arnold Schwarzenegger

New York, USA

1975

Arnold Schwarzenegger

Pretoria, South Africa

1976

Franco Columbu

Columbus, USA

1977

Frank Zane

Columbus, USA

1978

Frank Zane

Columbus, USA

1979

Frank Zane

Columbus, USA

1980

Arnold Schwarzenegger

Sydney Australia

1981

Franco Columbu

Columbus, USA

1982

Chris Dickerson

London, UK

1983

Samir Bannout

Munich, West Germany

1984

Lee Haney

New York, USA

1985

Lee Haney

Brussels, Belgium

1986

Lee Haney

Columbus, USA

1987

Lee Haney

Gothenburg, Sweden

1988

Lee Haney

Los Angeles, USA

1989

Lee Haney

Rimini, Italy

1990

Lee Haney

Chicago, USA

1991

Lee Haney

Orlando, USA

1992

Dorian Yates

Helsinki, Finland

1993

Dorian Yates

Atlanta, USA

1994

Dorian Yates

Atlanta, USA

1995

Dorian Yates

Atlanta, USA

1996

Dorian Yates

Chicago, Illinois, USA

1997

Dorian Yates

Los Angeles, USA

1998

Ronnie Coleman

New York, USA

1999

Ronnie Coleman

Las Vegas, USA

2000

Ronnie Coleman

Las Vegas, USA

2001

Ronnie Coleman

Las Vegas, USA

2002

Ronnie Coleman

Las Vegas, USA

2003

Ronnie Coleman

Las Vegas, USA

2004

Ronnie Coleman

Las Vegas, USA

2005

Ronnie Coleman

Las Vegas, USA

2006

Jay Cutler

Las Vegas, USA

2007

Jay Cutler

Las Vegas, USA

2008

Dexter Jackson

Las Vegas, USA

2009

Jay Cutler

Las Vegas, USA

2010

Jay Cutler

Las Vegas, USA

2011

Phil Heath

Las Vegas, USA

2012

Phil Heath

Las Vegas, USA

2013

Phil Heath

Las Vegas, USA


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## simonthepieman (Jun 11, 2012)

What would that prove?


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## Queenie (May 30, 2013)

simonthepieman said:


> What would that prove?


That we are all wrong and romper is the best at everything to do with beginner bodybuilders


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## simonthepieman (Jun 11, 2012)

RXQueenie said:


> That we are all wrong and romper is the best at everything to do with beginner bodybuilders


I've still yet to see a picture of him, or hear stats from his 25 years experience


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## MRSTRONG (Apr 18, 2009)

romper stomper said:


> please tell me how may of these guys started out and totally advocate 5x5 as the very best base for pure bodybuilding
> 
> not strength/power athletes athletes who swapped genres - but pure bodybuilders ??
> 
> ...


you could show the internet how awesome you have built your body


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## Bad Alan (Dec 30, 2010)

Didn't Franco do powerlifting? I know Ronnie did.

Tbf no one in this thread has suggested that any Olympia champion used 5x5, you fabricated this in your mind.

Anyway what does something that the genetic freak 1 in 10,000,000 athletes provide as a reference for the average genetic retard? You follow your flex routines mate, forcing change means more than cookie cutter volume training.


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## Queenie (May 30, 2013)

Bad Alan said:


> Didn't Franco do powerlifting? I know Ronnie did.
> 
> Tbf no one in this thread has suggested that any Olympia champion used 5x5, you fabricated this in your mind.
> 
> Anyway what does something that the genetic freak 1 in 10,000,000 athletes provide as a reference for the average genetic retard? You follow your flex routines mate, forcing change means more than cookie cutter volume training.


I do believe Reg Park, Arnold's idol, used 5x5 (and variants of) to build his physique from beginning to end.


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## BruceT (Jul 26, 2013)

I've come back to lifting after training for years following whatever sounded interesting at the time. As a result I've not really developed sufficiently for the time invested. Only recently have I started documenting routine and progression properly. 5x5 is working well for me.

Started out lifting light to get in to the lifts and make the so-called mind/muscle link, and try for good form.

Making nice gains, keeps me motivated chasing the next overload plate.

I'd recommend 5x5 to anyone new to lifting; easy to follow and document, with tangible results.


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## Bad Alan (Dec 30, 2010)

BruceT said:


> I've come back to lifting after training for years following whatever sounded interesting at the time. As a result I've not really developed sufficiently for the time invested. Only recently have I started documenting routine and progression properly. 5x5 is working well for me.
> 
> Started out lifting light to get in to the lifts and make the so-called mind/muscle link, and try for good form.
> 
> ...


Excellent and sounds like you used it properly. You don't have to start off at max weights, like you didn't, can follow the rep schemes with light loads to learn form.

The reason it's advocated is no one on here has the time or is going to do a periodised and tailored weihht training program for a beginner. This template fits the bill and will serve as a good foundation for lifting in future too.


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