# Excess protein and fat cannot be stored as fat in the body!!!



## 36-26 (Jun 30, 2009)

Hey guys this is a follow on from another thread where I was having a debate with another member Doggy. He says that excess fat and protein cannot be stored as fat in the body that it will be sh1t out. He read it in some book, I of course argued that this is not true and said that excess cals in any form will be stored as fat. He is adamant that he is right and that I am wrong.

Would any knowledgeable members like to give their opinion???


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## defdaz (Nov 11, 2007)

Total and utter b*llocks, as I said in the other thread ffs.

Fat gets stored as fat with very little metabolic cost (no sh*t, sherlock!)

Carbs can easily be converted into and stored as fat with a low metabolic cost

Protein can be converted into and stored as fat but has a high cost ~ 25% of the energy available or 1 kcal per gram.

And yes, I have a degree in nutrition.


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## NovemberDelta (Apr 17, 2011)

Haha.


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## 36-26 (Jun 30, 2009)

anab0lic said:


> Excess gets converted into glucose (gluconeogenisis)


What about excess fat??


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## biglbs (Jan 26, 2012)

Bacon and eggs all day then....... :lol:


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## defdaz (Nov 11, 2007)

36-26 said:


> What about excess fat??


Don't worry, he's fibbing  Gluconeogenisis only occurs in significant amounts when in a depleted or fasting state or when carb intake is low.

I.e. you eat a meal high in fat and protein but low in carbs (like a big load of fatty fish or meat etc.) and you haven't had much carbs for a good long while then gluconeogenisis will be ramped up to ensure the brain is getting glucose (takes a while for the brain to shift over to using ketones). Even still we're taking in the sub 100 gram range at full tilt so most of that protein and fat is going to be used and stored in other ways (i.e. the excess will be converted / stored as fat).

Don't forget though that the body protein pool is pretty darn massive (all your lean tissue is full of it!) and is in a constant flux. The amount of protein going in and out on a daily basis is much less than the actual turn-over within the body.


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## MRSTRONG (Apr 18, 2009)

defdaz said:


> Don't worry, he's fibbing  Gluconeogenisis only occurs in significant amounts when in a depleted or fasting state or when carb intake is low.
> 
> I.e. you eat a meal high in fat and protein but low in carbs (like a big load of fatty fish or meat etc.) and you haven't had much carbs for a good long while then gluconeogenisis will be ramped up to ensure the brain is getting glucose (takes a while for the brain to shift over to using ketones). Even still we're taking in the sub 100 gram range at full tilt so most of that protein and fat is going to be used and stored in other ways (i.e. the excess will be converted / stored as fat).
> 
> Don't forget though that the body protein pool is pretty darn massive (all your lean tissue is full of it!) and is in a constant flux. The amount of protein going in and out on a daily basis is much less than the actual turn-over within the body.


so then is there a point here by eating too much protein can be unproductive ?


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

36-26 said:


> Hey guys this is a follow on from another thread where I was having a debate with another member Doggy. He says that excess fat and protein cannot be stored as fat in the body that it will be sh1t out. He read it in some book, I of course argued that this is not true and said that excess cals in any form will be stored as fat. He is adamant that he is right and that I am wrong.
> 
> Would any knowledgeable members like to give their opinion???


  I read once in a book that steroids made you infertile......shame no one told my 3 kids that  sorry to say but for some one to read and believe that is just plain stupid.....

DefDaz knows his stuff and can go into much more detail than I can but when it all comes down to the brass tacks if you are eating more cals than you use it will be stored as fat.......


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## doggy (Mar 26, 2011)

I never mentioned carbs.

I stated that If all you ate was fat and protein you would lose body fat.

The book I think is called something along the lines of Ultimate nutrition for all sports (the front cover is missing as its from the mid 80s).

Its by Bernard Beverly and Arthur Fairhurst M.H.C.I.M.A (Mr Universe runner up). http://www.ultimate-nutrition.co.uk/ These guys have been around for along time. I'm only telling you whats in the book. Shall Itype more for you?

Maybe some of the older members will remember the company.


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## 36-26 (Jun 30, 2009)

doggy said:


> I never mentioned carbs.
> 
> I stated that If all you ate was fat and protein you would lose body fat.
> 
> ...


What you said was that it is impossible for fat or protein to be stored as fat, that excess would be $hat out..


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## lxm (Jul 26, 2011)

neg or no neg ?


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

The calorie cost of storing differrent macros is fairly well established. The figures aren't totally static, and there is some degree of shift in the cost of storage depending upon how much of each macro you consume relative to the others (the more fat you eat for example the more energetically expensive it gets to store during that feeding period), but the average figures for energy cost of the conversion and storage of each macro as fat are roughly as follows:

Alcohol - na (no storage capacity)

Fat 0-3%

Carbs 5-10%

Protein 25-30%

The above basically shows the number percentage of calories it costs to store the above macros as fat... if you eat an excess 100kcals of fat you will store 97-100kcals of it as fat, whereas of an excess 100kcals of carbs you will store 90-95kcals as a varying combination of fat and glycogen (depending on existing glycogen storage levels), and for protein you will store 70-75kcals either as fat or glycogen (via gluconeogenesis and then glycogenesis).


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## doggy (Mar 26, 2011)

found this http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/nutrition/excess-protein-and-fat-storage-qa.html

i think most guys respect lyle mcdonald. have a look at the last paragraph.


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## 36-26 (Jun 30, 2009)

doggy said:


> you cant store fat from protien or fat consumed. its impossible.





doggy said:


> Thats not very nice.
> 
> Its the basis for the Atkins diet and any low carb diet followed by BB since the 70s.
> 
> ...





doggy said:


> its cool, forget about it.
> 
> listen, your body cannot store either as fat. only carbs can be stored as fat.
> 
> im scanning through my books, if i find it ill scan it for you.


There is what you said Doggy


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## doggy (Mar 26, 2011)

heres the updated version of the book im quoting from. http://www.ultimate-nutrition.co.uk/index.php?subrange=books


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## doggy (Mar 26, 2011)

lol it looks like my post.


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## biglbs (Jan 26, 2012)

doggy said:


> heres the updated version of the book im quoting from. http://www.ultimate-nutrition.co.uk/index.php?subrange=books


I think it is a waste of your time mate,why persue a lost cause?


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## 36-26 (Jun 30, 2009)

doggy said:


> lol it looks like my post.


Let it go Doggy... Lyle said excess protein would be turned to fat if you ate enough which very few would and what about fats???


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## doggy (Mar 26, 2011)

ok a direct quote from page 135 of the said book.

if you really want i can scan it and email you the passage.

"some people may wonder what the difference is between a calorie from carbohydrates, and a calorie from fat. on the surface itt might appear that a calorie is a calorie, and that's that.

the difference is in the way the body processes these two types of calories. fat is, when compared to carbohydrates, a relatively simple substance. the body can quite easily transform it into energy, but on the other hand finds it very difficult to store it as fat.* if you were to live on a diet composed entirely of proteins and fats, you would not get fat*. this however is very difficult, and in any event, you do need a certain amount of carbohydrates for optimum health"


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## doggy (Mar 26, 2011)

ok, but lyle also said its very difficult to do.


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## 36-26 (Jun 30, 2009)

doggy said:


> ok a direct quote from page 135 of the said book.
> 
> if you really want i can scan it and email you the passage.
> 
> ...


The book is wrong Doggy, wrong. Did you not just read the posts from the members above who know their stuff, Defdaz has a degree in nutrition. Are you telling them they are wrong?


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## KRSOne (Jul 31, 2011)

lxm said:


> neg or no neg ?


guilty of negging


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## KRSOne (Jul 31, 2011)

36-26 said:


> The book is wrong Doggy, wrong. Did you not just read the posts from the members above who know their stuff, Defdaz has a degree in nutrition. Are you telling them they are wrong?


hmmmm who should I believe? Lyle Macdonald who came up with many new ideas regarding nutrition, published author and believed to be one of the best in his field.

or

broscience


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## doggy (Mar 26, 2011)

its not broscience.

i linked the book, gave authors names. google it.


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## KRSOne (Jul 31, 2011)

doggy said:


> its not broscience.
> 
> i linked the book, gave authors names. google it.


that wasnt aimed at you mate, sorry


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## doggy (Mar 26, 2011)

ok cool krsone


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## KRSOne (Jul 31, 2011)

im sure all this is mentioned in Dan Duchaine's - Bodyopus too.


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## Replicator (Apr 4, 2009)

doggy said:


> I never mentioned carbs.
> 
> I stated that If all you ate was fat and protein you would lose body fat.
> 
> ...


mglder members  where for fvck sake :no: im not old :nono: not me !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :huh:


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## 36-26 (Jun 30, 2009)

KRSOne said:


> hmmmm who should I believe? Lyle Macdonald who came up with many new ideas regarding nutrition, published author and believed to be one of the best in his field.
> 
> or
> 
> broscience


Lyle said in the link that few people would ever eat enough protein for it to be stored as fat but if they did it would be stored as fat and the OP also said fat cannot be stored as fat in the body, do you actually agree with this?


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## doggy (Mar 26, 2011)

krs i have the dan duchaine book. any idea what he thinks? i havent read it.


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## Replicator (Apr 4, 2009)

ewen said:


> so then is there a point here by eating too much protein can be unproductive ?


Absolutely ......any protien not used by the body is turned into fat Period


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## doggy (Mar 26, 2011)

36 26 youve lost me a little bit. can you rephrase the question?


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## KRSOne (Jul 31, 2011)

doggy said:


> krs i have the dan duchaine book. any idea what he thinks? i havent read it.


that you can stay on fat and protein indefinitely lol, as long as you are looking at the hierarchy of fats, and following it to the letter.

you can afterall bulk on keto too, so how would that work if all you did was put on fat. bs in my opinion


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## 36-26 (Jun 30, 2009)

doggy said:


> 36 26 youve lost me a little bit. can you rephrase the question?


It was aimed at KRSone. I asked does he agree with what you think. Are you still adamant you are right, what about Pscarb, Defdaz etc opinions??


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## 36-26 (Jun 30, 2009)

KRSOne said:


> that you can stay on fat and protein indefinitely lol, as long as you are looking at the hierarchy of fats, and following it to the letter.
> 
> you can afterall bulk on keto too, so how would that work if all you did was put on fat. bs in my opinion


Ya you can bulk on keto but there is only so much muscle you can gain. What do you think happens to any excess cals left over??


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## Replicator (Apr 4, 2009)

doggy said:


> ok a direct quote from page 135 of the said book.
> 
> if you really want i can scan it and email you the passage.
> 
> ...


this is the same theory as the atkins diet ......the reason is that fat is a high satiety food so you will eat LESS calories without noticing , staying full for longer .

certainly not an ideal diet by any means tho


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## KRSOne (Jul 31, 2011)

surely it depends on the hierarchy of fats used, as with anything. if you ate x amount of carbs in sugar, and the same in oats look at how different that would be. why would fats be any different. MCT oil for example:

'What Is MCT?

MCT simply stands for medium chain triglycerides, as opposed to long chain triglycerides (LCT), which are found in most foods. MCT is comprised of primarily caprylic and capric fatty acids, and is a light-yellow, odorless, translucent liquid at room temperature. MCT oil occurs naturally in coconut oil and other foods. Supplementation with MCT oil began as a fat source to help treat diseases such as cystic fibrosis, obesity, and fat malabsorption. It has also been used to add calories to infant, and certain other formulas. Recently, athletes, bodybuilders, and diet gurus have jumped on the MCT bandwagon, embracing its fat burning and energy sustaining powers. So why are so many claiming this oil is the fuel needed to help burn unwanted body fat?

According to Dr. Laurie Cullen at the Women's Institute, when MCTs are absorbed into the blood stream, they bypass the digestion process that longer chain fats go through. MCT's provide quick energy for the body and are thus less likely to be stored in the fat cells. Further, Dr. Cullen says that when a meal includes medium chain triglycerides, there is a significant increase in the number of calories burned (thermogenic effect). When more calories are used, fewer are stored as fat, which helps to reduce body fat levels.'


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## doggy (Mar 26, 2011)

36 26 its not that im adamant. im not a scientist or anything. im just stateing what ive read and believed for nearly 20 years. theres no need for this to get heated.

i also googled "storing protein as fat", it took me all around the globe. opinions are very split on this.

in my 20s if i had to lose weight quickly, i would follow the diet laid out in the book ive mentioned. i never weighed anything, never counted calories, i just ate lots of meats. i never worried about fat content. my only concern was keeping carbs low.

i always lost at least a stone in 4 weeks. on the first weeks i could lose close to half a stone.


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## KRSOne (Jul 31, 2011)

this too

'Many ketogenic diet and MCT oil spokespeople say that MCT's energy sustaining powers can be explained as follows: when MCT oil is metabolized in the body, it behaves more like a carbohydrate than a fat. Remember that the fuel of preference for the body is carbohydrate. Unlike other fats, MCT oil does not go through the lymphatic system. Instead, it is transported directly to the liver where it is metabolized so it releases energy like a carbohydrate and creates lots of ketones (which can be used for fuel) in the process.'


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## Replicator (Apr 4, 2009)

defdaz said:


> Total and utter b*llocks, as I said in the other thread ffs.
> 
> Fat gets stored as fat with very little metabolic cost (no sh*t, sherlock!)
> 
> ...





defdaz said:


> Don't worry, he's fibbing  Gluconeogenisis only occurs in significant amounts when in a depleted or fasting state or when carb intake is low.
> 
> I.e. you eat a meal high in fat and protein but low in carbs (like a big load of fatty fish or meat etc.) and you haven't had much carbs for a good long while then gluconeogenisis will be ramped up to ensure the brain is getting glucose (takes a while for the brain to shift over to using ketones). Even still we're taking in the sub 100 gram range at full tilt so most of that protein and fat is going to be used and stored in other ways (i.e. the excess will be converted / stored as fat).
> 
> Don't forget though that the body protein pool is pretty darn massive (all your lean tissue is full of it!) and is in a constant flux. The amount of protein going in and out on a daily basis is much less than the actual turn-over within the body.


The above pretty much ends this thread LOl :thumbup1:


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## KRSOne (Jul 31, 2011)

Replicator said:


> The above pretty much ends this thread LOl :thumbup1:


'*and yes, i have a degree in nutrition *

was probably over before it started too lol


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## 36-26 (Jun 30, 2009)

KRSOne said:


> surely it depends on the hierarchy of fats used, as with anything. if you ate x amount of carbs in sugar, and the same in oats look at how different that would be. why would fats be any different. MCT oil for example:
> 
> 'What Is MCT?
> 
> ...


You didn't answer the question if you bulked keto style, what would happen to excess cals after you've gained muscle. Will they disappear? Will you $hit them out? What?


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## biglbs (Jan 26, 2012)

KRSOne said:


> surely it depends on the hierarchy of fats used, as with anything. if you ate x amount of carbs in sugar, and the same in oats look at how different that would be. why would fats be any different. MCT oil for example:
> 
> 'What Is MCT?
> 
> ...


Mct i have used on/off for 25years,it is a one off with its own set of rules,yes it is a fantastic suppliment oil,gives you the guts for a while but you get used to it.


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## KRSOne (Jul 31, 2011)

36-26 said:


> You didn't answer the question if you bulked keto style, what would happen to excess cals after you've gained muscle. Will they disappear? Will you $hit them out? What?


i did, i said it depends on the fats used, as not all fats are equal, just like carbs. depends what fats you take in, and how the body processes them, and for what purpose. which is why i just gave you a load on MCT oil, showing that its not processed like many other fats, so why would you gain excess fat if you used that, after reading how it is used.


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## 36-26 (Jun 30, 2009)

Replicator said:


> The above pretty much ends this thread LOl :thumbup1:


And yet it goes on and on lol.


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## KRSOne (Jul 31, 2011)

biglbs said:


> Mct i have used on/off for 25years,it is a one off with its own set of rules,yes it is a fantastic suppliment oil,gives you the guts for a while but you get used to it.


ive never had the Sh!ts so bad than the first time i tried it. decided to ignore the directions and just put 2 tbs in a shake before gym. ended up having to leave early, as i almost sh!t myself doing squats. was a welcome break though on keto, as normally it felt like cutting glass. fukin horrible lol


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## 36-26 (Jun 30, 2009)

KRSOne said:


> i did, i said it depends on the fats used, as not all fats are equal, just like carbs. depends what fats you take in, and how the body processes them, and for what purpose. which is why i just gave you a load on MCT oil, showing that its not processed like many other fats, so why would you gain excess fat if you used that, after reading how it is used.


So what about the rest of the fats that are not MCT oil?? Wouldn't they get stored as BF??


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## KRSOne (Jul 31, 2011)

36-26 said:


> So what about the rest of the fats that are not MCT oil?? Wouldn't they get stored as BF??


IT DEPENDS on what fats, when you take them and how they are processed. how is this so difficult to get lol


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## 36-26 (Jun 30, 2009)

KRSOne said:


> IT DEPENDS on what fats, when you take them and how they are processed. how is this so difficult to get lol


My point at the start of this thread was that if you eat excess cals even in the absence of carbs you will put on fat. Its the law of thermodynamics.


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## Hayesy (Aug 15, 2011)

Whats your take on cheat meals or binge days.

I am cutting but always lead to believe the odd binge day is fine to keep u sane!!

Been cutting for ages and was weak as hell tonight at gym, pulled trough then came home and

1 yorkie

9 cookies

1magnum

2 classic biscuits

Your take?,


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## 36-26 (Jun 30, 2009)

Hayesy said:


> Whats your take on cheat meals or binge days.
> 
> I am cutting but always lead to believe the odd binge day is fine to keep u sane!!
> 
> ...


I'm no expert but IMO it won't do any harm at all. If you are still losing fat every week with cheat meals in then they are fine


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## doggy (Mar 26, 2011)

36 26 try it for yourself.

maybe 1 peice of fruit per day, maybe two rivita. thats all the carbs i had from memory and i lost lost.

like i said, i used it several times when i had to lose weight, and incidently i dont think i was lifting weights at the time. maybe only rugby training and playing the game.

but it worked for me without fannying about with scales and macros.


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

MCT's (and short chain saturated fats) are metabolised differently to longchain saturates... long chain saturates (those with over 12 carbons in the chain) have to be broken down by bile salts then packaged up and bound to a lipoprotein (LDL cholesterol) in the liver to be transported around the body, MCT's do not and skip that stage of processing... they go directly into the portal vein where they are transported directly to the liver for immediate use for energy.

This does make those particular fats less likely to be stored as body fat, but remember in cases of overfeeding they will simply displace other energy sources that would have provided energy to the liver otherwise and allow for those to be stored as fat/kept as body fat instead.

Overall it's still energy balance which determines fat gain/loss.


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## 36-26 (Jun 30, 2009)

Dtlv74 said:


> MCT's (and short chain saturated fats) are metabolised differently to longchain saturates... long chain saturates (those with over 12 carbons in the chain) have to be broken down by bile salts then packaged up and bound to a lipoprotein (LDL cholesterol) in the liver to be transported around the body, MCT's do not and skip that stage of processing... they go directly into the portal vein where they are transported directly to the liver for immediate use for energy.
> 
> This does make those particular fats less likely to be stored as body fat, but remember in cases of overfeeding they will simply displace other energy sources that would have provided energy to the liver otherwise and allow for those to be stored as fat/kept as body fat instead.
> 
> Overall it's still energy balance which determines fat gain/loss.


Thank you very much, they don't want to listen to me.


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## 36-26 (Jun 30, 2009)

doggy said:


> 36 26 try it for yourself.
> 
> maybe 1 peice of fruit per day, maybe two rivita. thats all the carbs i had from memory and i lost lost.
> 
> ...


No thanks I've done keto before which of course works because of the calorie deficit but I don't like it. I prefer some carbs in my diet because I like them and you can still lose fat with them in


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## KRSOne (Jul 31, 2011)

Dtlv74 said:


> MCT's (and short chain saturated fats) are metabolised differently to longchain saturates... long chain saturates (those with over 12 carbons in the chain) have to be broken down by bile salts then packaged up and bound to a lipoprotein (LDL cholesterol) in the liver to be transported around the body, MCT's do not and skip that stage of processing... they go directly into the portal vein where they are transported directly to the liver for immediate use for energy.
> 
> This does make those particular fats less likely to be stored as body fat, but remember in cases of overfeeding they will simply displace other energy sources that would have provided energy to the liver otherwise and allow for those to be stored as fat/kept as body fat instead.
> 
> Overall it's still energy balance which determines fat gain/loss.


great post!

with the whole energy balance thing though, surely a very carefully planned diet with regards to fats, could completely minimise the risk of gaining excess fat? like if you substituted cooking oil for MCT, EVOO for flax oil, peanut butter for things like smoked salmon etc? and timed certain fats around waking, workouts and bed?

i think pscarb said in another thread he was regularly eating a lot of food and not watching everything he ate coming up to contest, but he still managed to come in lean and not bloated, even though he was overeating. If it simply was just thermodynamics, how would something like that be possible? just curious mate


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## KRSOne (Jul 31, 2011)

36-26 said:


> No thanks I've done keto before which of course works because of the calorie deficit but I don't like it. I prefer some carbs in my diet because I like them and you can still lose fat with them in


you can still burn fat on keto if you ate maintenance calories. you DONT have to be in a deficit


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

36-26 said:


> Thank you very much, they don't want to listen to me.


Haha, welcome to my forum experience :lol:

In truth MCT's are good and do have a whole range of metabolic advantages over longer chain saturated fats, they are good to include.


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

KRSOne said:


> great post!
> 
> with the whole energy balance thing though, surely a very carefully planned diet with regards to fats, could completely minimise the risk of gaining excess fat? like if you substituted cooking oil for MCT, EVOO for flax oil, peanut butter for things like smoked salmon etc? and timed certain fats around waking, workouts and bed?
> 
> i think pscarb said in another thread he was regularly eating a lot of food and not watching everything he ate coming up to contest, but he still managed to come in lean and not bloated, even though he was overeating. If it simply was just thermodynamics, how would something like that be possible? just curious mate


The way to think of it is that if you eat an excess of food that say has a total caloric value of 300kcals over your maintenance for that day, that is 300kcals that you will store - energy balance and thermodynamics dictates this.

What nutrient partitioning and 'clever eating' does though is ensure that a minimal amount of those excess kcals are stored as fat and a higher percentage stored as glycogen and muscle tissue... but the net gain of energy added to your body remains the same.

Likewise if in a calorie deficit of 300kcals, your body will catabolise 300kcals worth of tissue for energy no matter what you eat, but what you can manipulate slightly through clever eating is where your body takes that energy from - do it well and you'll retain muscle and burn mostly fat and glycogen, do it poorly and you'll retain more fat and lose more muscle... overall though calorie balance and the law of thermodynamics is always constant and applicable.


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## DrRinse (Mar 30, 2008)

Dtlv74, did you study nutrition / biomedical science etc or did you just accumulate knowledge as you went along through life?

Ant


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## defdaz (Nov 11, 2007)

Is this still going on?!

doggy, why don't you try it bro. Go on, for all us broscientists. 10,000 kcal a day mainly from fat and protein. Keep a log, please. Game on!


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

DrRinse said:


> Dtlv74, did you study nutrition / biomedical science etc or did you just accumulate knowledge as you went along through life?
> 
> Ant


I studied biochemistry and physiology but never completed my degree due to some difficult stuff going on in my personal life at the time... more recently have taken a few nutritional courses, but mostly I'm a nerd who keeps abreast of clinical journals and publications... hopefully am still learning and replacing old outdated info with newer more accurate stuff as I go. Main interest in nutrigenetics, and eventually want to do a masters in something related.


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## MRSTRONG (Apr 18, 2009)

DrRinse said:


> Dtlv74, did you study nutrition / biomedical science etc or did you just accumulate knowledge as you went along through life?
> 
> Ant


mate why dont you change your user name to ant then you dont have to keep typing it at the end of every comment .

just saying


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

defdaz said:


> Is this still going on?!
> 
> doggy, why don't you try it bro. Go on, for all us broscientists. 10,000 kcal a day mainly from fat and protein. Keep a log, please. Game on!


I can put up details of my infamous keto lean bulk diet if that helps, it still haunts me for the moobs and fat belly I grew as well as the digestive issues and migraines. :lol:


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## 36-26 (Jun 30, 2009)

Dtlv74 said:


> I can put up details of my infamous keto lean bulk diet if that helps, it still haunts me for the moobs and fat belly I grew as well as the digestive issues and migraines. :lol:


Please do mate, it'll show the people that you can indeed gain fat in the absence of carbs, if you overeat protein and fat


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

36-26 said:


> Please do mate, it'll show the people that you can indeed gain fat in the absence of carbs, if you overeat protein and fat


14 weeks straight keto - lean bulk.

Energy intake estimated as 100kcal excess.

Total body weight change over 13 weeks +1.1kg (2.4lbs)

Estimated change in lean mass (inc glycogen and fluids) +0.6kg (+1.3lbs)

Estimated change in fat mass +0.5kg (+1.1lbs)

14 weeks equal macros diet (40/30/30 c/p/f) - lean bulk.

Energy intake estimated as 160kcal excess.

Total body weight change over 14 weeks +1.8kg (+4lbs)

Estimated change in lean mass (inc glycogen and fluids) +1kg (+2.2lbs)

Estimated change in fat mass +0.8kg (+1.8lbs)

Bodyfat and lean mass changes were estimated using the parillo caliper method.

Two lean bulking diets I experimented with a few years ago... only a slight kcal excess on each diet and no PED's, test boosters or supp's beyond workout proteins and a few odds and ends. Calorie intake was different on each diet, but if you crunch the numbers the rate of fat gain was directly equal between the keto diet (less than 50g carbs per day) as it was with a diet containing a few hundred grams carbs per day... excess calories dictated the rate of fat gain more than the macros.

An interesting side note though was where the fat seemed to collect... in carb friendly diets I tend to gain fat fairly equally over my body when in a prolonged calorie excess, but when going low carb or keto it seems to preferentially accrue on my stomach and around my lower chest. This suggests elevated cortisol and estrogenic hormones. I also made slower strength progressions with the keto approach (similar findings in subsequent very low carb diets, although not everyone reports this).

In truth I think I've made a few tweaks to the mixed macro diet since then (cleaner food choices, better eating patterns and more attention to omega 3's and fluid intake) and these things seem to help slightly reduce the fat gain (when in a kcal excess) and improve muscle gain. Smarter more intense training nowadays probably helps too (looking back for both of those experiments I could have trained harder and gained better at the time).


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## El Toro Mr UK98 (Nov 11, 2011)

This post sort of says what I was saying in the thread i posted yesterday

http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/nutrition-diet-articles/189006-im-sick-word-bulk-bulking-up.html


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## 36-26 (Jun 30, 2009)

Dtlv74 said:


> 14 weeks straight keto - lean bulk.
> 
> Energy intake estimated as 100kcal excess.
> 
> ...


What i find very interesting about that is that in both types of calorie excess you gained roughly 55% muscle in both scenarios and roughly 45% fat despite the difference in calorie excess. Do you think there is any significance to this? ie Do you think if you had lowered the excess in the equal macro scenario that a higher percentage of weight gain would have been muscle?


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

doggy said:


> I never mentioned carbs.
> 
> I stated that If all you ate was fat and protein you would lose body fat.
> 
> ...


Not if you was eating more calories than you use, it is basics if you eat more calories than you use you will put fat on......what studies do these guys reference to back up these claims?


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## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

Most of this has already been covered, but eat an excess of calories and you will gain weight. You can't argue with thermodynamics. Tinkering with macronutrient ratio can determine what % of this is fat / muscle / glycogen etc though.

For those of you saying fat is less likely to be stored than carbs. Dietary fat is stored incredibly easily by the body via acylation stimulating protein (ASP). ASP is upregulated in response to the body sensing elevated levels of fat in the blood stream following digestion. Plus ASP works in the absence of insulin for those of you who wrongly think it's impossible to gain fat on just protein and fat - although this theory ignores the fact protein is insulinogenic too!


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

36-26 said:


> What i find very interesting about that is that in both types of calorie excess you gained roughly 55% muscle in both scenarios and roughly 45% fat despite the difference in calorie excess. Do you think there is any significance to this? ie Do you think if you had lowered the excess in the equal macro scenario that a higher percentage of weight gain would have been muscle?


Am not sure, but that ratio seems to be the rate I usually gain at and have done at similar low levels of calorie excess with other macro splits (around 55% carbs). Would be awesome to have tried and logged every possible combination of things but that would be too nerdy even for me... spent a couple of years being really obsessed with following a methodical scientific approach, but now I just train for fun and to keep healthy and don't really measure anything strictly.


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## 36-26 (Jun 30, 2009)

Dtlv74 said:


> Am not sure, but that ratio seems to be the rate I usually gain at and have done at similar low levels of calorie excess with other macro splits (around 55% carbs). Would be awesome to have tried and logged every possible combination of things but that would be too nerdy even for me... spent a couple of years being really obsessed with following a methodical scientific approach, but now I just train for fun and to keep healthy and don't really measure anything strictly.


I know what you mean but self studies like that are priceless IMO. I'd never have the patience to see anything so strict through. Do you think if you ate an even higher calorie surplus that you might have gained even more muscle or do you think that it would just have meant a higher percentage of fat?


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## doggy (Mar 26, 2011)

defdaz said:


> Is this still going on?!
> 
> doggy, why don't you try it bro. Go on, for all us broscientists. 10,000 kcal a day mainly from fat and protein. Keep a log, please. Game on!


i dont eat meat anymore. why dont you try it?


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## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

doggy said:


> i dont eat meat anymore.


Well done, you're on the fast track to being clinically malnourished.


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## biglbs (Jan 26, 2012)

This is now realy interesting ,lets not unzip though guys,keep it going some of the best dietry brains on ukm right here,good debate.........


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## Nostaw (Apr 8, 2012)

Doggy your argument sucks, you didn't even count calories while doing your low carb diet.

Your argument is basically "I was in a calorie deficit while doing a low carb diet, therefore it is impossible to gain fat while doing a low carb diet"

how about no.

You were in a caloric deficit, obviously you were going to lose weight - regardless of what you ate.

If you were in a surplus, even consuming 0 carbs, you would still gain fat.


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

The basis for the whole idea of low carb diet's is the regulation of insulin...insulin is what open's up your cells so they can store energy. If in the absence of insulin your body will first deplete your reserved glycogen in your liver first and then start on the muscle reserves. Your liver will then start producing ketones from the fatty acids being consumed. This is why for the first week the body struggles for energy until ketones become the main source of energy. Even so i don't believe a full low carb diet to be beneficial to the body builder as insulin receptors are there for every cell in the body including fat and muscle. Carb cycling allows for both systems to operate with the benefits of insulin manipulation and the inhibition of glycogen depletion.

This is off the top of my head as i am a little rusty but i think it's correct...it's what i follow when i am cutting anyway.

And to note it's about macro nutrient combinations which affect insulin:

Fat + protein ok

Protein + carbs ok (Cheat days)

carbs + Fat No No


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## Fatstuff (Mar 2, 2010)

everyone makes everything complicated! that is all!


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

Fatstuff said:


> everyone makes everything complicated! that is all!


yes but what is considered complicated to one is simple to another.....


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## Uriel (Oct 14, 2008)

DrRinse said:


> Dtlv74, did you study nutrition / biomedical science etc or did you just accumulate knowledge as you went along through life?
> 
> Ant


you never used to post as anabolic ant???


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## Fatstuff (Mar 2, 2010)

Pscarb said:


> yes but what is considered complicated to one is simple to another.....


This is true, but people spend that much time looking at the ins and outs of this, that and the other and overthinking things that they miss the bigger picture


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

Pscarb said:


> yes but what is considered complicated to one is simple to another.....


also one mans boredom is another mans stimulation - i'm an unashamed geek, and even if i never understand all of it (which of course i never will, too big subject), i sure enjoy learning about it anyway


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