# which is a better muscle mass gainer? Test Or Deca.



## AceOfSpadez (May 6, 2010)

Whats more stronger for gaining muscle? Deca or Test? reason i ask this is, because i get more sides in the way of GYNO from higher dosing my testosterone, as soon as i hit over 750mg of test, however, a friend of mine told me to lower my testosterone in this matter, and uppen the dosages of my 19NOR's instead, for less sides... as deca for example will aromatise at 20% were testosterone converts to estrogen as a higher rate?

I can run 500mg of Testosterone with out any sides, in the way of GYNO, however i was thinking of switching my dosages around, for less side effects, Usually i would run, 800mg Test, 600mg Deca, however I'm now considering running 600mg Test and 800mg deca.

He also mentioned i'd make better gains with a higher dose of deca, rather then testosterone? as deca is apparently better for muscle mass gains? is this true? and he also mentioned the theory between running your testosterone HIGHER then your 19nor's is a old theoretical myth to prevent limp dick, apparently all you need is a HRT dosage of Test to run along side of your 19nor's your dick will be fine and functional, he also mentions that you're less likley to get prolactin gyno by running a lower dosage of test as prolactin only comes on if theres a high amount of estrogen, so all in all, hes saying if i decrease my test dosage and increase my deca dosage to compensate, i'll gain more muscle mass and have less side effects? as deca is more ANABOLIC and results in better gains and i'll also be less prone to gyno.

Whats your guys take on this?

P.S Ewen **** OFF.


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## cas (Jan 9, 2011)

subbed for answers


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## lewishart (Mar 13, 2012)

First of all, you dont want to have your deca higher than your test. Its a 19-nor, personally, he may be right but running a TRT dosage of around 250mg/week of test MAY be completly fine.

But unless i could be sure i wouldnt chance it, you dont really want to be screwing with the downstairs department, at least i dont lol.

Deca shuts the HPTA down quite a lot. Ive actually never ran it, been a tren man for a while now.

Way better


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## AceOfSpadez (May 6, 2010)

lewishart said:


> First of all, you dont want to have your deca higher than your test. Its a 19-nor, personally, he may be right but running a TRT dosage of around 250mg/week of test MAY be completly fine.
> 
> But unless i could be sure i wouldnt chance it, you dont really want to be screwing with the downstairs department, at least i dont lol.
> 
> ...


Thats the whole idea of my post.... TRT dosage of 250mg with say... 800 - 1000mg of deca is likley to give me less sides... judging by the way my body responds to deca, compared to test..... however i still think i want to run around 600mg test and 800mg deca.... i was told to let my 19nors do the work and that testosterone is over rated.... in the way people dose it... i'm told to run low test high 19nors for less sides and apparantly it wont effect my downstairs at all...


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## AceOfSpadez (May 6, 2010)

Lee Maggs said:


> i ran 300mg test and 300mg of deca for my first cycle n grew like mad. never had any problem downstairs.
> 
> u thought about using tren instead of deca??


Just finished a tren cycle.... ran 800mg test 625mg tren, was an awesome cycle... however i deffonately see more size gains from deca... however, this may be a shocker? this is my 2nd tren cycle... and i seem to hold onto way more size off tren then i do deca when i discontinue its use... tren deffo doesn't shut me down half as hard as deca... weird?


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## cas (Jan 9, 2011)

what is it that deca does that causes erection problems?


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## AceOfSpadez (May 6, 2010)

Guys back to the point? which is a stronger muscle builder? Deca or Test? I'm guessing Deca builds more muscle then test but i'd still like more opinions on which you guys think is better for muscle gain.


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## AceOfSpadez (May 6, 2010)

cas said:


> what is it that deca does that causes erection problems?


If running deca ALONE with out a small dosage of test, it shuts you down harder and also prevents your ability to get an erection.


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## MRSTRONG (Apr 18, 2009)

whichever empire boy was using when you stalked him :whistling:


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## lewishart (Mar 13, 2012)

cas said:


> what is it that deca does that causes erection problems?


Progresterone levels.


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## lewishart (Mar 13, 2012)

AceOfSpadez said:


> Just finished a tren cycle.... ran 800mg test 625mg tren, was an awesome cycle... however i deffonately see more size gains from deca... however, this may be a shocker? this is my 2nd tren cycle... and i seem to hold onto way more size off tren then i do deca when i discontinue its use... tren deffo doesn't shut me down half as hard as deca... weird?


Just finished?

Hope your running the protocol time on = time off to let the HPTA/body recover?

Trens shutdown is meant to be slightly worse than deca.

However, everyone says the shut down is worse here n there.

A dosage of 250mg/week of deca shuts down the HPTA by 100%. Its the recovery of it that matters, all compounds past 250mg/week will shut you down 100%, it just bears on how you recover.


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## MRSTRONG (Apr 18, 2009)

lewishart said:


> Just finished?
> 
> Hope your running the protocol time on = time off to let the HPTA/body recover?
> 
> ...


good post .


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## 12 gauge (Jul 16, 2011)

lewishart said:


> you dont really want to be screwing with the downstairs department,


That's what it's for mate, to screw with.


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## Dux (Nov 29, 2011)

Igglepiggle is back, and he's back with a bang.


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## Nemises (Jun 29, 2008)

Its deca not stronger?

I ran 250test with 600npp no problem with limbo.


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## BodyBuilding101 (Mar 8, 2006)

lewishart said:


> Just finished?
> 
> Hope your running the protocol time on = time off to let the HPTA/body recover?
> 
> ...


How do you know you've recovered? Say after running pct your balls are back to normal, what other signs are their to show your 'normal'?

I've been off the gear now for 4/5 weeks and my balls are back to normal and my spunk is thick, whilst on gear it was watery.... :innocent:


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## cas (Jan 9, 2011)

lewishart said:


> Just finished?
> 
> Hope your running the protocol time on = time off to let the HPTA/body recover?
> 
> ...


just a quick question for you, on my test cycle of 600mg per week by balls ended up the size of a small grape by the end, but got all my size back within 2-3 weeks, is this a fast/normal time period? if i were to take deca or tren with my next cycle can i expect to recover within the same period of time?


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## cas (Jan 9, 2011)

BodyBuilding101 said:


> How do you know you've recovered? Say after running pct your balls are back to normal, what other signs are their to show your 'normal'?
> 
> I've been off the gear now for 4/5 weeks and my balls are back to normal and my spunk is thick, whilst on gear it was watery.... :innocent:


when i was on the poison i had about a rain drops worth of spunk, that changed within a fortnight of stopping my cycle


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## Andy Dee (Jun 1, 2008)

Nemises said:


> Its deca not stronger?
> 
> I ran 250test with 600npp no problem with limbo.


Thats because you follow facts and not what this guy keeps posting.


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## Mingster (Mar 25, 2011)

250mg test is more than enough to prevent deca dick


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## lewishart (Mar 13, 2012)

BodyBuilding101 said:


> How do you know you've recovered? Say after running pct your balls are back to normal, what other signs are their to show your 'normal'?
> 
> I've been off the gear now for 4/5 weeks and my balls are back to normal and my spunk is thick, whilst on gear it was watery.... :innocent:


Well the time on = time off protocol doesnt apply correctly.

Does it mean that if your running a cycle for 20 weeks, you body needs 20 weeks to recouperate? No.

However, it is hard to judge that you have recovered. Blood panels obviously can only tell this to a accurate degree (which i get pre-post cycle anyway)

My advise is get a blood panel, HDL/LDL levels, FSH, LH, free/bound test levels, estradiaol etc, that way you will know when you have recovered.


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## lewishart (Mar 13, 2012)

cas said:


> just a quick question for you, on my test cycle of 600mg per week by balls ended up the size of a small grape by the end, but got all my size back within 2-3 weeks, is this a fast/normal time period? if i were to take deca or tren with my next cycle can i expect to recover within the same period of time?


I would honestly say that its person dependant, some people have a tendency to recover the HPTA faster, maybe that is compound dependant of course.

During your PCT you will expect your nuts to be a lot bigger, primarily from your clomid and your FSH and LH levels raising will cause them to get bigger.

Size doesnt mean recovery is complete.

However, in answer your question, yes tren or deca are 19-nors and they have a tendency to shut the HPTA down a lot harder than EQ, test, masteron etc etc.

Your diet in PCT will play a role in how fast they come back online, plenty of good fats in there will help of course.

Heavy lifts in the gym causes the body to jack up test levels and possibly stimulate hpta startup.

There are too many variables to say directly to be honest.


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## cas (Jan 9, 2011)

lewishart said:


> I would honestly say that its person dependant, some people have a tendency to recover the HPTA faster, maybe that is compound dependant of course.
> 
> During your PCT you will expect your nuts to be a lot bigger, primarily from your clomid and your FSH and LH levels raising will cause them to get bigger.
> 
> ...


have not used clomid

its odd though, so both test and tren will shut you down 100% but tren/deca will shut you down harder? how can it be harder if both are 100%, is it that ten/deca take longer to recover from due to hanging around the system longer?

im finding it a little hard to get a grasp of, time for me to do a little reading i think


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## lewishart (Mar 13, 2012)

cas said:


> have not used clomid
> 
> its odd though, so both test and tren will shut you down 100% but tren/deca will shut you down harder? how can it be harder if both are 100%, is it that ten/deca take longer to recover from due to hanging around the system longer?
> 
> im finding it a little hard to get a grasp of, time for me to do a little reading i think


Hahah dont worry bro, i got my head around all of this reading hours and hours of litriture, endo journals etc, speaking to ausbuilt lol i learned a HELL of a lot.

Just about time really.

And in answer to your question, yes all compounds regardless willl shut you down 100% post 250mg/week. The male body produces around 75mg/week of natty test. So anything really past 100mg you will start to shutdown and by 250 you will be 100% shutdown regardless of compound.

Its just recovering from the shutdown is harder for some reasons with certain compounds, 19-nors being the hardest.

Tren doesnt make a difference to 'hanging around the system longer' because you can get tren ace and it will be out of the blood in 48 hours + where as enanthate is a lot longer.

NPP is the fast version of deca, Nandrolone phenylpropionate.

Its not about the ester, its just the compound that makes the recovery harder.

Generally, shutdown is easier to recover from quicker esters, prop,acetate, phenylprop etc.


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## lewishart (Mar 13, 2012)

Also PS, clomid is probably the most valuable PCT compound out there.

You really should include it in all injectable lengthy cycles. Nolva will normally suffice for orals.

But clomid helps to boost FSH and LH levels and really makes a big part in kick starting the HPTA.

If your using deca or tren you would be silly to not include clomid into your PCT.

HCG throughout your cycle and in PCT is advised when using tren especially

(Personally ive never used HCG in the years ive been on gear, recovery was not a problem everytime, and ive used tren several times, I run a lengthy PCT, which a lot of people will possibly just say thats too long but thats what works for me, blood panels to prove. Is a 5 week PCT, nolva 60/40/20/20/20 and clomid 100/100/50/50/50, proviron 100/100/100/100/100 and clenbuterol 120mcg ED also because it possesses anti-catabolic properties and does this through suppression of cortisol/cortisone which can run quite high after a cycle when you come off having low FSH,LH,test levels etc)

Hence why you run anti estrogens to combat the male dominant hormone becoming estrogen due to lack of natural test.


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## AceOfSpadez (May 6, 2010)

BodyBuilding101 said:


> How do you know you've recovered? Say after running pct your balls are back to normal, what other signs are their to show your 'normal'?
> 
> I've been off the gear now for 4/5 weeks and my balls are back to normal and my spunk is thick, whilst on gear it was watery.... :innocent:


Hmm im still horny as ****... my sperm on cycle was low, its now producing alot more sperm then when i was on, i feel energetic... i'm losing very little of my gains, and my balls are back to size... had no negitive come downs, no depression, no mood changes nothing... i feel fine... and i feel like my testosterone is already recovered... however blood tests may show different... im just going off how i feel and the tell tale signs... recovery seems easier for me then my pals, when ever i come off 19nors im fine, however they come off them and they lose labido, i however havent at all... still feeling great...


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## MRSTRONG (Apr 18, 2009)

lewishart said:


> Hahah dont worry bro, i got my head around all of this reading hours and hours of litriture, endo journals etc, speaking to ausbuilt lol i learned a HELL of a lot.
> 
> Just about time really.
> 
> ...


wont be long til your banned again :lol:


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## lewishart (Mar 13, 2012)

AceOfSpadez said:


> Hmm im still horny as ****... my sperm on cycle was low, its now producing alot more sperm then when i was on, i feel energetic... i'm losing very little of my gains, and my balls are back to size... had no negitive come downs, no depression, no mood changes nothing... i feel fine... and i feel like my testosterone is already recovered... however blood tests may show different... im just going off how i feel and the tell tale signs... recovery seems easier for me then my pals, when ever i come off 19nors im fine, however they come off them and they lose labido, i however havent at all... still feeling great...


Im more or less 100% certain if you get a blood panel now, you will find that you are very partially recovered, especially post 19-nor supression.

Just because you feel healthy, awake and energetic doesnt mean the numbers are stacking up.

Also a lot of the sides you mentioned are person dependant, I for one, never get any sides from gear, im running 700mg/week of tren ace at the moment alongside other compounds, the only side ive seen is incredible gain in muscle lol.....


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## lewishart (Mar 13, 2012)

ewen said:


> wont be long til your banned again :lol:


Why do you say that lol?


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## MRSTRONG (Apr 18, 2009)

lewishart said:


> Why do you say that lol?


because mentioning you have spoken to ausbuilt many times means you were a previous member , only a matter of time til a mod picks up on your old username and bans you again , if you could pm i would of pm`d you but you cant lol


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## Machette (Oct 29, 2011)

lewishart said:


> Im more or less 100% certain if you get a blood panel now, you will find that you are very partially recovered, especially post 19-nor supression.
> 
> Just because you feel healthy, awake and energetic doesnt mean the numbers are stacking up.
> 
> Also a lot of the sides you mentioned are person dependant, I for one, never get any sides from gear, im running 700mg/week of tren ace at the moment alongside other compounds, the only side ive seen is incredible gain in muscle lol.....


WTF bro thats alot of tren ace... Are you not getting any BP sides from that?


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## Machette (Oct 29, 2011)

Thinking on your toes there ewen... Very smart lol...



ewen said:


> because mentioning you have spoken to ausbuilt many times means you were a previous member , only a matter of time til a mod picks up on your old username and bans you again , if you could pm i would of pm`d you but you cant lol


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## cas (Jan 9, 2011)

lewishart said:


> Also PS, clomid is probably the most valuable PCT compound out there.
> 
> You really should include it in all injectable lengthy cycles. Nolva will normally suffice for orals.
> 
> ...


i would have run clomid, but i just did not want any problems that come with it, mainly emotional ones...atm for pct i am using nolva and osta at 12.5 E/D until i run out (about 60 days worth)

not what you would call the "norm" but does seem to be working so far. saying that i never ran anything for my orals.


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## Andy Dee (Jun 1, 2008)

ewen said:


> wont be long til your banned again :lol:


yeh, not hard to work out who it is :lol:


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## lewishart (Mar 13, 2012)

ewen said:


> because mentioning you have spoken to ausbuilt many times means you were a previous member , only a matter of time til a mod picks up on your old username and bans you again , if you could pm i would of pm`d you but you cant lol


No lol, you mis understand me, ive been floating around uk muscle for a while, yes and just reading many of the informative posts by ausbuilt. Guy knows his stuff. If i wrote that i spoke to him it was a typo, ive only read what hes wrote to other members.


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## lewishart (Mar 13, 2012)

MonstaMuscle said:


> WTF bro thats alot of tren ace... Are you not getting any BP sides from that?


I dont really tend to suffer from high BP tbh.

I get BP sides from dbol with all the water retention. I was running 525mg/week tren ace and ive just upped it to 1ml ED.

My sides from gear always are very low, tren doesnt give me night sweats or anything.

Slight insomnia some nights but i fall asleep quickly anyway


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## MRSTRONG (Apr 18, 2009)

lewishart said:


> No lol, you mis understand me, ive been floating around uk muscle for a while, yes and just reading many of the informative posts by ausbuilt. Guy knows his stuff. If i wrote that i spoke to him it was a typo, ive only read what hes wrote to other members.


my mistake :whistling:

carry on


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Well, the guy you were talking to was right in the fact that deca is more anabolic than testosterone, but that is about it from there on out.

Testosterone is an awesome steroid and the granddad of them all.

All other hormones are a derivative of testosterone.

It had alot of hype when first developed but didn't pan out the way they suspect and this is suggested because of estrogen.

I don't believe it is the progestin that has its libido loss rather than once on deca you shut down testosterone, and its conversions to DHT and estrogen.

So, I suspect it is due to you not producing testosterone on a deca cycle and the two other hormones converted via way of enzymes.

I love deca myself, but the shutdown is just freaking crazy, and I get far more aggressive on it than testosterone.

I really feel running 800mg of deca is just nuts.

The amount that many of you guy take in my opinion is way too much.

I ran half the amount of you guys and made awesome gains and from where I am sitting carried more mass than you guys with less cycles.

With no intervention a deca cycle can shut you down for up to a year, its long ester takes forever to clear, and I feel some metabolites continue to shut down even when the active ingredient is gone.

My brother noticed 3 months after a 600mg deca cycle he still get more testicular atrophy.

I also think the 20% conversion to estrogen is a bit too high too.

So, to recap, test is best, has awesome gains, is fairly tolerable with the sides well known, and shutdown not that big of deal if the cycle is sensible.

Gains were way faster on test, and you can get in, and get out, deca takes far longer, but the gains do tend to keep going.

I really do not believe it is the progesterone that does the libido in, I was put on that and test cream by a TRT doctor and felt great, with no libido issues.

Also running 60mg of nolva is far too high, 20mg is more than enough to get the job done, and I hate nolva only PCT's, to me they are not effective at all.

Clomid works well once testicular function is either kept or achieved.


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## English muscle (Feb 12, 2012)

Well done hackskii I was getting more and more annoyed reading some terrible advice on this thread,great advice!


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Hey, it is all common sense anyway.

Steroids have sides, using just enough to get the job done is smart thinking.

It is not how bad we can cheat the system here, just manipulate it some.

Some of the guys cycles I read about is just madness and they are trying to compensate for either bad diet, poor training philosophy, or are just way too damn lazy to do it and wait for the gains to happen.


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## DiggyV (May 6, 2011)

hackskii said:


> Hey, it is all common sense anyway.
> 
> Steroids have sides, using just enough to get the job done is smart thinking.
> 
> ...


I'm with you on this mate. Milky and I were discussing it, and couldn't believe these guys weighing about 160lbs talking about jabbing 4g of test per week.

I am now running 2ml of Sust 250 (500mg) and will be adding 1.5ml of Tren Hex (115mg) from next week, and was questioning whether I had been doing it wrong! :lol: And to be honest I reckon I will gain better than the 4g boys, as everything else will be on song!

Back on topic - I dont like Deca TBH, and would rather run Tren. Deca made me feel like shit.


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

AceOfSpadez said:


> If running deca ALONE with out a small dosage of test, it shuts you down harder and also prevents your ability to get an erection.


NO! See below



lewishart said:


> Progresterone levels.


No. Its DHN. when 19-nor is used, 5-7% converts to Dihydronortestosterone. This also is able to bind at the DHT receptor sites. Guess what- you penis has DHT receptors, as does your prostate, scalp, skin and muscle.

DHN is not a problem anywhere... except for the penis where it prevents an erection...

Solution? rund test with your Deca. The conversion of the extra test to more DHT will displace DHN from receptor sites, as DHT binds to the DHT receptor with more affinity (i.e binds stronger).

Of course you could also run dbol with your deca for a similar effect, or take proviron or masteron.



lewishart said:


> Just finished?
> 
> Hope your running the protocol time on = time off to let the HPTA/body recover?
> 
> ...


ok oestrogen and progesterone increases in the abscence of higher androgens do shut you down faster. By the way deca and tren are both progestins from a metabolite perspective, really not much between them.

You are right though, even 200mg/week of test will shut you down in between 8-12 weeks for the majority of the male population. But its reversible and no big deal; see under test enanthate (nature is the most prestigious science journal):

http://www.nature.com/nrendo/journal/v2/n1/full/ncpendmet0069.html


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## Zorrin (Sep 24, 2010)

I thought I read that deca was half as anabolic as test, but only 1/5th as androgenic, so it's considered a "mild steroid". I don't think those measurements done with rats translate to humans.

I remember reading a list of how long gains from various compounds hang around. It gave nandralone 9/10. I think its a gradual muscle gainer, but the gains are for keeps.

What Ausbuilt said about DHN in DHT receptors sounds right. Its like the wrong key in the receptor- it fits the lock, but can't turn it. But DHN doesn't cause baldness like DHT, so its swings and roundabouts.

Your HPTA is shut down from that very first 10mg dbol tablet, the "harder shutdown", "slower shutdown" tags are probably to do with how each steroid fits these receptor locks, and mess up our sex drive. And its not just receptors down there, its receptors on your brain, too. After tren, I still found women aesthetically pleasing - but in the same way you appreciate the curves of a sports car, or a painting. You know it's nice, but you don't want to shag it. And remember, Deca is decanoate - a longer ester than enanthate. Unless you keep injecting test E for a couple of weeks after you stop the deca, you will have a couple of miserable limp dick weeks with some nandrolone in you, but no testosterone at all.

Incidentally, on the subject of clomid, it's reputed to increase seminal volume. Cumshot king Peter North and many male porn stars are said to use clomid to enhance the "money shot". But its also good at hiding estrogen from your HPTA, and your HPTA is thousands of times more sensitive to estrogen than to testosterone in men. Which is wierd when you think about it.

I've left myself with a lot to ponder. I won't sleep tonight.

Unless I get a shag. Mrs Zorrin is lucky if she can climb out from under my snoring dead weight after I've shot my bolt.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

But remember, everyone is different.

I never had any issues with a deca only cycle, in fact sex drive was huge.

I know a guy that had normal libido but was shut down as verified by a blood test.

Some guys bounce back with just a bit of clomid after deca, others can take a year.

Progesterone also can occupy the DHT receptors and some feel this may be an alternative to DHT inhibitors.


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## lewishart (Mar 13, 2012)

ausbuilt said:


> NO! See below
> 
> No. Its DHN. when 19-nor is used, 5-7% converts to Dihydronortestosterone. This also is able to bind at the DHT receptor sites. Guess what- you penis has DHT receptors, as does your prostate, scalp, skin and muscle.
> 
> ...


Thanks for clearing that up.

I read up that it was heavily related to prog levels but clearly I was misinformed.


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