# Training basics advice 5x5 vs traditional splits vs a better method ????



## mid-life (Jul 7, 2011)

I have been reading a lot on here and a bit of knowledge can be a dangerous thing as I have now confused myself something silly. :confused1:

To cut a long story short about 3 years ago I weighed 16.5 stone (flab not muscle) I now weigh just under 12 stone at 5'10" My waist is around 32-33 inches and my chest 42-43. I acheived this by slowly swapping from a crap diet to a clean diet over a period of time (in fact my diet switched to a BB diet, Chicken, Occasional Lean red meat, Fish, plenty of Fruit and Veg, Wholemeal Pasta, rice and bread, salads, nuts and dried fruit etc etc with a whey Protein supplement) and concentrating on endurance exercise eg swim, bike, run together pilates.

My goal initially (2 years ago) was to lose weight and go off and do an iron-man and P90X was going to be my strengh training prior to embarking on the proper training however I had so many injuries through running that I was getting a bit fed up of it and the thought of swimming a mile in an ice cold lake has lost its appeal somewhat as well. I have lost 1 stone in the past 7 weeks following P90X and this has reignited a passion for weight training which has led to me joining a gym.

The Soreness I had from the first week of p90x was nothing compared to my first visit to the gym and hitting the free weights again.

My goal is to continue the weightlifting and to build Mass whilst still looking pleasing to the eye i.e. have some definition. Would my ultimate goal be to do it competitively - maybe but I need the basics sorted first.

First will my previous endurance training have a negative effect on building more muscule. I enjoy cycling on a sunday (social more than fitness now) but I do between 40 and 50 miles and burn around 3000 calories (according to my HRM)

I appreciate that powerlifting exercises is the best way to improve strength and mass but I don't want the physique of a power lifter (sorry PL guys)

Would I be better off following SL 5 x 5 or similar on a bulk then cut cycle periodically say 2 months SL recovery week then Isolation for a month then SL and so on

Is it better to sprinkle 5 x 5 together with Isolation so I cut and define as I go along.

I appreciate that my food intake will need to increase in volume to gain size. I think I have the diet OK albeit I am at calorie deficit at the moment for weight loss.

My gym does not have a power rack for squats it only has a Smith Machine.

Squats and deadlifts scare the $%£ out of me.

I want to compile a simple plan and maybe I am overthinking it all EDIT: but there is so much contradictory info out there

that I am going round in circles Isolation/no isolation 2 days in teh gym 6 days in the gym, hours in the gym no more than hour in the gym etc etc

Sorry about the long post and the multiple questions but wanted to give as much info as I could so I don't waste my time as I see so many people doing and I have been guilty of in the past

Would greatly apreciate your feedback and I will post my training plan up here for review once done

Many thanks

Jason

EDIT Tidy up


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## JawD (Sep 15, 2004)

First, well done on the weight loss.

Second, stop looking at my freaking avatar!

I dont know all the answers to what you ask, but Ive been doing the 5x5 routine. Im changing at the end of the month as Im a month on month off (the other month Im doing a 8-10 rep range then back again).

You know you need excess calories to grow. the amount is generally 10-15% over your static amount so Id aim for that. On days you cycle you may need to add more calories.

On squats, dont worry about them. I was in the same place, I had always used a smith machine but now I use a barbell. I was initially concerned about my own ability to lift it heavily and not keel over and break by neck or something. Best advice I can give is exactly what is there in the 5x5 routine. Start light and concentrate on form. The 5x5 tells you to add weight every session and this is what I done. I started at around 80kg squats and done the 5x5 with the barbell. but, every single session I added 2.5kg (2 x 1.5kg plates). As at today Im doing 127.5kg. I know it's a long way off a lot of the blokes on here, but for me it is a PB every session. Slowly increasing and gaining confidence in my ability. Deadlifts exactly the same method. Start light, get form right and increase each week.

On the 5x5 I have done no isolation. Yet, I can see a huge difference in my triceps. The 5x5 is the big compounds. When I change next month Ill be adding a few extra's but mainly dips and pull ups and maybe lunges. again thinking of compounds. I'd probably start there and see where you go.


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## Tassotti (Feb 27, 2011)

As if he's gonna read any of that with your avi

Edit..don't ever change it


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## mid-life (Jul 7, 2011)

Tassotti said:


> As if he's gonna read any of that with your avi
> 
> Edit..don't ever change it


LOL yes don't ever change it - I had to read down quickly as I am at work !

Thanks for the feedback I am more thinking 5x5 then break for a bit then return to 5x5.

As regards the cycling days these are my off diet days anyway as I know I can eat virtually anything (within reason) and will be burning most of it off. The start of the day (actually I make sure I have carbs the previous evening also) is a huge bowl of porridge made with soy milk , raisins and a scoop of whey. I will then have an energy bar, a protein bar and two or three slices of Malt loaf perhaps a bit of proper cake then a Banana, Protein drink and more than likely another bit of fruit once I get back home. Then its back to eating clean. I know if my carb intake is not right on that day as I want to eat the entire house the following day.

Funnily enough now that I am hitting heavier weight exercises I feel that same burn (for want of a better description) as I do when cycling and I have naturally upped my calories intake just by listening to my body


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## Tassotti (Feb 27, 2011)

Eat big...Lift heavy


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## EchoSupplements (Jul 19, 2010)

The 5x5 routine is a good one for where it sounds like you're at - particularly if squats and deadlifts scare you! Dont' worry too much about the cycling I run 4-5 times a week for 45min+ each time and as long as I eat plenty I don't worry about it.


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## 1adf1 (Jun 15, 2010)

JawD said:


> First, well done on the weight loss.
> 
> Second, stop looking at my freaking avatar!
> 
> ...


i got as far as that in red now carnt stop looking


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## General lee (Jun 12, 2011)

Im a massive fan of 5x5, you could try this......

DAY 1 - PULL

Deadlifts or Power Cleans

Barbell Rows, Dumbbell Rows, or Wide Grip Chins

Barbell Curls, Close Grip Underhand Chins, or Hammer Curls

DAY 2 - PUSH

Incline or Flat Barbell or Dumbbell Bench Press

Barbell or Dumbbell Shoulder Presses

Tricep Dips or Close Grip Bench Press

DAY 3 - LEGS

Front or Back Squats

Barbell or Dumbbell Stiff Leg Deadlifts

Calf Raises (3x12) - only if a seriously lagging bodypart

Weighted Crunches or Weighted Hanging Leg Raises (3x12)

After warming up do 5 sets of 5 reps using the same weight unless above says different, if you get 5 on fifth set move the weight up the next week.

After 12 weeks, take one week off. Continue doing cardio but don't touch a weight. Your body needs the time to completely recuperate.

Then, begin your next 12 week cycle. If you did deadlifts in cycle 1, do powercleans in cycle 2. If you did flat barbell bench, do incline barbell bench. If you did back squats, do front squats. If you did barbell overhead presses, then do dumbbell overhead presses. The idea is to stick with heavy compounds. DO NOT SUBSTITUTE OR ADD IN ANY ISOLATION MOVEMENTS. DO NOT INCREASE REPS OR SETS.

Assuming your diet and rest is good you should make good gains with this.


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## LeBigMac (Jul 17, 2011)

If they have no power rack. Would you not be able to substitute barbell back squat for goblet Squats or Dumbbell Squats?

Squats and deadlifts are about to become your new best friends get over the fear my friend. Take a few sessions with a good PT to teach you correct form and you will be set.

Good luck with the training buddy.


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

mid-life said:


> LOL yes don't ever change it - I had to read down quickly as I am at work !
> 
> Thanks for the feedback I am more thinking 5x5 then break for a bit then return to 5x5.
> 
> ...


First comment is the voice of total agreement - JawD must not ever change his avatar.... i wonder if my moderator administrative tools allow me to fix it so he is never able to? Shall check i think 

In respect of what you are doing it sounds like you are very much on the right track. The cycling is fine, and will keep your metabolism nicely stoked up, and by ensuring you keep your glycogen levels high with an increased carb intake around your cycling day, you will be doing the best thing to protect your muscle mass.

For the choice of routine, it's less clear cut and different people will have different views on what the most appropriate routine will be... confusion is a very normal result of asking and researching this question! The truth is, most programs will yeild similar results if performed properly. The phrase 'more than one way to skin a cat' is fairly applicable here.

My take on 5x5 vs bodypart split routines is that the 5x5 is a good simple routine which can deliver a solid foundation of strength and size, but is not always optimum for developing perfect proportions. It does depend on your individual bodyshape and muscle fibre distribution, but some people need to put a lot of direct work into smaller muscles (biceps, triceps, calves etc) to keep their development equal to the back, chest, quads and hams... whereas some lucky folk can develop their bi's and tri's easily enough merely by performing heavy chest and back work. If you fall into the former category, then after a period of time on the 5x5 it will become obvious, and a switch to a split routine with more isolation work may be the best choice. If you develop well and evenly from the 5x5 however then staying with what works makes very obvious sense.

Whichever path you take eventually however, I think the 5x5 is a good place to start. After a while of training I would also seriously look at periodising within the routine, altering rep ranges and loading every few months. This tends to keep progression going for longer with fewer plateaus.


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