# Reverse Pyramid Training Vs Straight Sets: Rep Range Difference?



## Vanchatron (Sep 25, 2006)

Hey guys,

I started off training with straight sets for several years, and around 4-5 months back I began using reverse pyramid training (RPT).

The reason for this is, I was concerned that by doing straight sets on an exercise it would only work the muscles through a certain rep range, let's say 6-8 reps per set for example. I figured by using RPT I'd be able to hit the best rep range per exercise. So taking Bench Press for example, with straight sets I'd do 4 sets of 6-8 reps. With RPT I'd be starting with 6 reps on the first set, lowering the weight by 10% and then doing 8 reps on the next set. I'd carry on until my last set was 12 reps. So it'd be 4 sets consisting of 6/8/10/12 reps.

This allows me to get a better range of reps done per exercise, so that I'm able to hit all the muscle fibers. Also, instead of tying progression to something like "increase the weight when you manage all 8 reps in all 4 sets" (in straight sets) I have instead tied progress to the first set (in RPT). So when I manage to get 6 reps in my first set of RPT, I increase the weight next week. I did this because with straight sets, I find that having to get all 8 reps in all 4 sets almost becomes impossible for me to progress. I've had lifts stuck at the same weight for a couple of months on end because of this, but with tying progression to the 1st set (in RPT) I am able to overcome this.

Now my issue is, I don't know if this is optimal. I don't know whether I'd get better gains by carrying on like this, trying to get 6-12 reps in all exercises or just going back to straight sets. The problem I have with straight sets is that you are stuck to a certain rep range throughout the whole 4 sets of the exercise so I don't know if all the muscle fibers get hit properly. I've read certain things such as "There is no point ending an exercise with a high rep set (which I would of course be doing with RPT) because your body won't get the benefit from the heavy weight used at the start... Because you end on high reps, it fools your body into thinking the progression is coming from the high reps". Obviously I don't know if this is true or not, but I was just wondering.

What do you guys think about straight sets vs RPT?


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## j16088501 (Mar 11, 2015)

In for opinions here


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## a.notherguy (Nov 17, 2008)

i dont know which is better for mass but when i tried rpt my shoulders ached like fcuk after a couple of weeks.

i like straight sets, with failure only on the last set as i feel it benefits my joints and ligaments


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## BennyC (Mar 18, 2010)

It's a perfectly viable training method. It reminds me of DoggCrapp (tough but rewarding) which is kind of similar but rest paused and works on similar progression principles.

Martin Berkhan is an advocate:

Reverse Pyramid Revisited | Intermittent fasting diet for fat loss, muscle gain and health

Another useful article:

'Three Day Split RPT' Routine | RippedBody.jp

I personally prefer a higher intensity approach to training and it's delivered me the best results in strength, size and also value in terms of time spent each session. Like you say getting 4 sets of 8 can leave you stuck without making progress for sometime.

I wouldn't discard straight sets all together as they have their place for adding volume to a workout of course but aren't as interesting or rewarding in my opinion.


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## Galaxy (Aug 1, 2011)

Lol you can't fool your body.

Both work so long as your pushing yourself through progressive overload.


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## Big ape (May 5, 2011)

Reverse Pyramid Training


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## 31205 (Jan 16, 2013)

What I think is, if you start at your heaviest weight surely you're gonna be at your strongest? Rather than using energy building up the weight. Therefore you can lift heavier at more reps and surely that's gotta be a good thing? Heavy weight builds muscle according to a Jay Cutler videos I watched once. I do a mixture of both. I actually do a mixture of whatever comes into my head at that moment!


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

If you're doing this purely so that you don't just work one rep range then an alternative is to do sets across but do so for different rep ranges in different workouts.

I've never tried RPT.


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## Vanchatron (Sep 25, 2006)

Thanks fellas, that's a great help!


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## nWo (Mar 25, 2014)

sen said:


> What I think is, if you start at your heaviest weight surely you're gonna be at your strongest? Rather than using energy building up the weight. Therefore you can lift heavier at more reps and surely that's gotta be a good thing? Heavy weight builds muscle according to a Jay Cutler videos I watched once. I do a mixture of both. I actually do a mixture of whatever comes into my head at that moment!


It can be. I'd always advise some sort of ramping though to serve as a warmup, just jumping straight in at maximal weight is asking for trouble. Warmup sets though are supposed to be non-fatiguing and serve as a primer to get a little blood into the muscles being worked, get the form down and prep the CNS to lift heavy, and in many cases actually serve to enable you to lift a little heavier than you would if you just jumped in.

Warmup sets also work as "active recovery" sets, so between exercises the muscle is alowed more recovery time whilst still being lightly worked to maintain increased blood flow in the muscle. As a practical example - say I've just completed some lat pulldowns. I noticed a while ago that if I just allow 3 minutes to pass, then jump straight into a maximal set of supported dumbbell rows, I'd be using a couple of 30kgs for my first set to failure for about 6-8 reps. Whereas if I took a couple of 25s and did 6-8 reps as a warmup, then wait a couple of minutes, I'd then be reaching for the 40s for my set to failure at 6-8 reps, all the while maintaining my "pump" throughout the gap and giving the muscle a little extra work in that time  I generally only use 1-2 warmup sets depending on where the exercise is in the workout and how heavy the weight is, anything more is a waste of time and energy IMO. 3 can be wise at the very start of the workout if going straight into a big lift though if you're really strong.

Obviusly, people have various valid reasons to avoid lifting maximal weights, and of course I'd never sacrafice form and/or muscle stimulation to lift more weight, but the above is certainly worth thinking about for those on low volume, high intensity routines.


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## BennyC (Mar 18, 2010)

Agreed @I'mNotAPervert!

An effective 'warm up' should involve a little CV work just to elevate the heart rate slightly and prepare the body for exercise. Once you've then mobilised the joints by moving them few several planes of motion with a very light load then you can begin your exercise specific warm up.

For example, I usually spend 3-5 minutes on the bike or treadmill. Then do 15-20 BW squats on the V squat, 5-6 pull ups, 8-12 press ups, some empty BB military press and BOR. A few quick shoulder dislocations with a resistance band and some internal/external shoulder rotation work with 1.25's/2.5kgs.

Then for example if benching I'd just use the empty bar for 15-20 reps working on 'greasing the groove', same again with 60KG for 15-20reps, 6-8reps with 80KG or until the motion feels good and then in to my working sets. If they're particularly heavy I might do some doubles or singles at a 10-20KG increment to fully prime. No need to grind out 10-12 reps at 10KG intervals for 4-5 sets before reaching working weight.

Once you're warm, you're warm. Find the groove, prime the lift, then lift :thumbup1:


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## simonthepieman (Jun 11, 2012)

Vanchatron said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> I started off training with straight sets for several years, and around 4-5 months back I began using reverse pyramid training (RPT).
> 
> ...


Straight sets is typically higher intensity. But the long and short is you are over thinking it.

Nothing is surefire optimal and what is best will eventually fade. The law of diminishing returns will take effect.

Once you plateau with one swap.

Progress is more important than the frame work


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

It's a viable way to get in different rep ranges and add volume to strength training - both aspects being important for long term and maximal progression. Eventually though changing your rep scheme again will be a smart move as the body always adapts to any scheme over time and diminishing gains for the same amount of effort intensity start to reduce the effectiveness of any routine or training style. For now though enjoy the novelty gains of the program.


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## SCOOT123 (Jul 12, 2013)

dtlv said:


> It's a viable way to get in different rep ranges and add volume to strength training - both aspects being important for long term and maximal progression. Eventually though changing your rep scheme again will be a smart move as the body always adapts to any scheme over time and diminishing gains for the same amount of effort intensity start to reduce the effectiveness of any routine or training style. For now though enjoy the novelty gains of the program.


Sorry to bring this old post back but just wondering does your body really adapt to the same workout ? I have been doing the same sort of workout for about 3 months now would I maybe benefit from changing things up? Plus I'm bored of 8 reps on everything lol


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## simonthepieman (Jun 11, 2012)

SCOOT123 said:


> Sorry to bring this old post back but just wondering does your body really adapt to the same workout ? I have been doing the same sort of workout for about 3 months now would I maybe benefit from changing things up? Plus I'm bored of 8 reps on everything lol


Your body is designed to adapt full stop.

3 months is a good time to change, especially if you need a psychological boost too


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## SCOOT123 (Jul 12, 2013)

simonthepieman said:


> Your body is designed to adapt full stop.
> 
> 3 months is a good time to change, especially if you need a psychological boost too


Thank you sir Simon 

I have spoken to my PT she is looking at giving me some new ideas...think it's about time i learnt pull ups lol!


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

SCOOT123 said:


> Sorry to bring this old post back but just wondering does your body really adapt to the same workout ? I have been doing the same sort of workout for about 3 months now would I maybe benefit from changing things up? Plus I'm bored of 8 reps on everything lol


It does adapt, and as time goes on there definitely becomes a state of diminishing returns as a result of the same level of effort. Continually raising load with the same number of reps works for a while but that on its own is not necessarily the most effective way to keep progress happening at the same rate, especially for hypertrophy - changing rep ranges works different muscle fibers and challenges different energy systems within the muscle, and leads to adaptations that don't occur so well indirectly when only training one way.

The key though is not to mix it up too much - is best IMO to stick with something until it is obviously starting to slow down or cause boredom (which psychologically usually kills consistency and degree of effort pretty quickly). So long as a rep scheme still works and is enjoyable then stick with it, but once it starts to become a chore or less effective then definitely change a few things.


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