# Sustanon or Testosterone



## Jacko89 (Mar 4, 2009)

*Sustanon or Testosterone?*​
Sustanon10830.25%Test Cypionate205.60%Test Enanthate19454.34%Test Propionate359.80%


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## Jacko89 (Mar 4, 2009)

I imagine this has probably been done before but i couldn't find it if it has. Basically its a poll on what AAS you prefer out of good old Sustanon, Test Enanthate, Test Cypionate or Test Propionate in terms of gains in mass and strength.


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## MaKaVeLi (Aug 12, 2008)

Test is test, should pretty much give you the same gains whatever you use. I think:confused1:


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## Dezw (May 13, 2009)

Any long estered test would do me.

Can't be ****d with the hassle of frequent jabs.


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## Jacko89 (Mar 4, 2009)

I've only used Sust out of them all so i wont vote on it  just wondering what everyone else thinks. Im off for the night will check in at work in the morning


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## LittleChris (Jan 17, 2009)

Won't make any difference in terms of gains.

Would stick to the long esthers, especially if a first cycle, as you have to inject less often. Once a week as opposed to every other day.

Prop also has a tendency to sting a little more the day after.


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## Spangle1187 (Jul 27, 2006)

Test is test. I like sust easy on the freq of jabs for a 12 week cycle but I may have a look at prop and suspension soon


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## tom jones (Jul 7, 2008)

Test prop and Enanthate, to little test prop in the Sust to be effective - so dont see the point.


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## laurie g (Nov 28, 2008)

enethate for me wks best with tren 6 ml of each hmmm yum


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## weeman (Sep 6, 2007)

tom jones said:


> Test prop and Enanthate, to little test prop in the Sust to be effective - so dont see the point.


depends how much of it your using at a time......if your using 10-12 ml of it a week then the prop in it is gner be pretty effective.


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## iMORE_TEST (May 23, 2009)

from what ive heard, sus has 4 diffrent types of test in it, :s


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## weeman (Sep 6, 2007)

iMORE_TEST said:


> from what ive heard, sus has 4 diffrent types of test in it, :s


no all the types of test are the same,the esthers attached to them dictating the test's release rate are all different tho,as stated above test is test.


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## MaKaVeLi (Aug 12, 2008)

iMORE_TEST said:


> from what ive heard, sus has 4 diffrent types of test in it, :s


Testosterone Propionate

Testosterone Phenylpropionate

Testosterone Iscaproate

Testosterone Decanoate

Just different esters mate


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## the hunter (Mar 13, 2009)

MaKaVeLi said:


> Testosterone Propionate
> 
> Testosterone Phenylpropionate
> 
> ...


^^^ yup

Testosterone/ ester=Propionate

Testosterone/ ester=Phenylpropionate

Testosterone /ester=Iscaproate

Testosterone/ ester=Decanoate


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## pea head (May 28, 2008)

Yeah but surely have 4 different tests in it will mate you massive innit,because my mate at the gym said so.

This is the only reason every tom,dick and harry wants to use sust.

Wasnt sust only designed for doctors so that they could give a patient a jab and see him a month later as opposed to jabbing prope or something every few days?

I always use test e personally.


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## the hunter (Mar 13, 2009)

ypu thatsriht pea head ,i see many lads down the gym saying ,sust is the best cos its got 4 iff types of steroid in it ,i had a argument with sun skiny little fuker the other day becasue he was saying testx is a sort of deca -lol


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## dog5566 (May 28, 2008)

whats the diffferent from sust, and Test, Compound?


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## the hunter (Mar 13, 2009)

dog5566 said:


> whats the diffferent from sust, and Test, Compound?


there both the same thing ,as stated in this thread test is test ,its only the ester thats releases the test into you blood system that makes it diff,so

test e

test c

long esters

sust is a blend of 4 diff esters 1 fast acting (prop) 1 me acting and 2 longs acting

prop is a fast acting ester and test supension has no ester at all so its in and out your system very fast.


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## dan2004 (May 8, 2007)

Harry Jack said:


> I imagine this has probably been done before but i couldn't find it if it has. Basically its a poll on what AAS you prefer out of good old Sustanon, Test Enanthate, Test Cypionate or Test Propionate in terms of gains in mass and strength.


Have you used Tri-Test?


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## ba baracuss (Apr 26, 2004)

pea head said:


> Yeah but surely have 4 different tests in it will mate you massive innit,because my mate at the gym said so.
> 
> This is the only reason every tom,dick and harry wants to use sust.
> 
> ...


Sus n deca init lolz dem dbolz iz wicked I erd 2 rofl


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## Jacko89 (Mar 4, 2009)

dan2004 said:


> Have you used Tri-Test?


still new 2 it all.going for another sust course then il have a go on test


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## the hunter (Mar 13, 2009)

Harry Jack said:


> still new 2 it all.going for another sust course then il have a go on test


this makes no sence at all :confused1:

you will do another sust course and then have a go on test wtf:rolleyes:

sust is test mate :cool2:


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## Jacko89 (Mar 4, 2009)

the hunter said:


> this makes no sence at all :confused1:
> 
> you will do another sust course and then have a go on test wtf:rolleyes:
> 
> sust is test mate :cool2:


i meant as in one of the others e.g. test e

sorry for the bad english lol


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## Soul keeper (Jul 7, 2010)

Agree with Pea head.

Test E for me.


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## suliktribal (Apr 4, 2010)

I much prefered Sustanon, to Enanthate.


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## rs007 (May 28, 2007)

suliktribal said:


> I much prefered Sustanon, to Enanthate.


explain?

If both genuine, and you were being administered at a similar dose, but not told what was what, I'd defy anyone to tell the difference.

Not being ar$ey - its just the fact of the matter


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## rs007 (May 28, 2007)

PS just to show I am just as susceptible to the mind games, for some reason I favour Cyp? But my brain knows fine well I wouldn't be able to tell the difference if I was administered various tests blind either.


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## Jsb (Mar 30, 2009)

im giving supertest 350 a go soon with tren and deca anyone else used this,cant wait also nap 50's come on cant wait for this course


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## Boshboshbosh (Nov 23, 2009)

im about to do a first course, im going to do sust as i can get my hands on some cheap from a friend, he has been using it aswell and its real gear so phew haha!


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## westy125 (Jul 24, 2010)

Soul keeper said:


> Agree with Pea head.
> 
> Test E for me.


X2 Test E all the way for me, I put on twice the size with test e than sustanon


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## Lois_Lane (Jul 21, 2009)

*Hand to face followed by shaking

Serious question i have some dianabol is that similar at all to dbol????


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## Boshboshbosh (Nov 23, 2009)

Lois_Lane said:


> *Hand to face followed by shaking
> 
> Serious question i have some dianabol is that similar at all to dbol????


dianabol has more letters in it means more muscles init, thought youd know that big man!


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## rs007 (May 28, 2007)

Lois_Lane said:


> *Hand to face followed by shaking
> 
> Serious question i have some dianabol is that similar at all to dbol????


Its OK con, allow yourself the face-palm moment, the rage will pass - but for now breath deep, and allow the face-palm moment to engulf you.

PS

BoshBoshBosh - looks like you have came sprinting through the room in your avi, and been caught on high speed camera mid stride :lol:


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## Boshboshbosh (Nov 23, 2009)

rs007 said:


> Its OK con, allow yourself the face-palm moment, the rage will pass - but for now breath deep, and allow the face-palm moment to engulf you.
> 
> PS
> 
> BoshBoshBosh - looks like you have came sprinting through the room in your avi, and been caught on high speed camera mid stride :lol:


LOL!!! Your right it does! hahahaa!!


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## ashman (Jan 11, 2007)

sustanon all day log for me hard to source same stuff i used to get tho


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## Raptor (Feb 16, 2010)

Sus for me, can't be assed getting in to an argument about it but personally i react a lot better to a blend


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## thereisnoexit (Aug 26, 2009)

You will gain better on prop always since the long esters are heavier.. so your getting more testosterone per mg of prop than you would do per mg of eth.. This is the reason why it's more expensive..

Personally I go for Testex every time... it's Pharma 200cyp 50 prop my fav test.. wouldnt do anything else!


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## cellmore (Aug 26, 2008)

test e or a blend like megatest for me. gave up on sus years ago -


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## Raptor (Feb 16, 2010)

cellmore said:


> test e or a blend like megatest for me. gave up on sus years ago -


But Megatest is exactly what Sust is, a blend of Testostarone.. whats wrong with Sust?


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## Musashi (Oct 21, 2009)

The Raptor said:


> But Megatest is exactly what Sust is, a blend of Testostarone.. whats wrong with Sust?


There is nothing wrong with Sust at all mate.

'Most' of us will not notice any difference between the different esters associated with the different products. From my own experience of longer term small dose testosterone use (excluding blasts) a single ester test shot twice a week provides greater stability in serum levels and gives a decent feeling of well being.


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## guitarman1477 (Jan 27, 2011)

newbie here and ive never taken a steroid in my life, but wonder if any of you boys can advise me, im 56, and my sex drive is a bot low, even though ive had my testosterone checked and it shows normal. can anyone tell me or adviise me if sus will help me have some sort of sexual attitude? if so what amounts and what colour needles etc for a jab in the **** and how often? sorry for all questions but im not sure how to go on, thanks for any help


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## dr_squeeze (Jul 28, 2008)

test e for the win, wish it didnt take half you're cycle you properly kick in though, suppose it depends what lab you're using though.


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## webby06_2007 (Dec 14, 2009)

i love test prop, i love taking a pr**k in my A*SE EOD! haha


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## m575 (Apr 4, 2010)

webby06_2007 said:


> i love test prop, i love taking a pr**k in my **** EOD! haha


Whatever turns you on :lol:


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## webby06_2007 (Dec 14, 2009)

milner575 said:


> Whatever turns you on :lol:


my missus tryed using her finger once just didnt have the same effect!


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## Jacked3d (Mar 19, 2011)

wow what a dumb fuk haha some people are just stuped.


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## gettin on abit (Apr 14, 2011)

Hi Guys im new here so looking for some advice, i was right into training hard 20 years ago and was taking testosterone for a couple of years but haven't done any type of training for that long so i started at the Gym 5 weeks ago which gave me the bug again so i decided to read up on steroids s**t its changed so much so i thought a i ask an old friend whats the best thing to use for me now he says EAS test 400 and sus is what to use now , what do you think guys need some help here im 45 and got a bit of a belly as well!!!


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## Pav Singh B. (Nov 6, 2010)

test is test but if i i had to chose, i prefer test prop, less water retention and you should get the same strength as other tests,

I've run it previously at 800mg/week, wicked gains.


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## Pav Singh B. (Nov 6, 2010)

gettin on abit said:


> Hi Guys im new here so looking for some advice, i was right into training hard 20 years ago and was taking testosterone for a couple of years but haven't done any type of training for that long so i started at the Gym 5 weeks ago which gave me the bug again so i decided to read up on steroids s**t its changed so much so i thought a i ask an old friend whats the best thing to use for me now he says EAS test 400 and sus is what to use now , what do you think guys need some help here im 45 and got a bit of a belly as well!!!


Welcome to the forum mate,

you been off for a while, 20years no training is a very long time, just give yourself a little longer to get back into it properly (diet+training),

but few of my maties are on EAS test400 now, looks like their doing pretty good onit, EAS is a good lab.


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## gavzilla (Feb 7, 2010)

Prop needs to be injected every 3 days which can be expensive and less water retention, test e is a once a week injection and sust is the same. The difference between sust and test e is that sust gives you more water retention so if your thin get it in. Personally I get really bad spots from Sust and I find test e gives me more strength and I look leaner. The prop is good but I can't be ****d injecting every 3 days which is a pain in the ****. Try 10 weeks sust have 4 weeks off then run 10 weeks test e. Make sure you use a training diary to record your gains.

The bloke asking about dosage for sust for sex drive just try 1 ml a week then 2 ml a week. I personally don't use more test in 1 week to avoid side effects and it works best for me. Thing is every human is different.


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## GolfDelta (Jan 5, 2010)

Biggest load of nonsence i've seen posted in a while,not sure whether you are joking or not?

"Try 10 weeks sust have 4 weeks off then run 10 weeks test e. Make sure you use a training diary to record your gains."

Unbelievable.


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## Ash78 (Jul 11, 2011)

Personally:

If I'm running a high dose test, I'll use Test E (Jabbing fequently anyway so blood levels should remain stable, less PIP for me with enan)

If I'm running test to maintain base levels while going high on another compound(s), I'll use Sust (less jabs, more even test release if jabbing it infrequenty - HRT-esque).

For all intents though, test is test.


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## barsnack (Mar 12, 2011)

had a bad experience on sus with PIP, so only run test now, tried test c and loved it, starting test e on wednesday so expecting similar results


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## vetran (Oct 17, 2009)

if your in a rush then squirt in the prop otherwise cyp and enth are fine,where as sus dont i dont get it where is 30 ml prop gonna get ya .


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## NoGutsNoGlory (Jun 11, 2009)

vetran said:


> if your in a rush then squirt in the prop otherwise cyp and enth are fine,where as sus dont i dont get it where is 30 ml prop gonna get ya .


Shoot 4 amps a week and see if you change your mind.


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## onthebuild (Sep 3, 2011)

Sust if injecting eod. test e for bi-weekly shots is my favourite!


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## vetran (Oct 17, 2009)

NoGutsNoGlory said:


> *Shoot 4 amps a week and see if you change your mind*.


it wouldent bro cause that only equates to 120mg/week but i see where you are coming from,


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## NoGutsNoGlory (Jun 11, 2009)

vetran said:


> it wouldent bro cause that only equates to 120mg/week but i see where you are coming from,


But what's the half-life of prop?


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## Must_Be_HBFS (Jun 21, 2011)

test e

see no need for the prop pain , no matter how slight , when you can have a pain free injection. sust has no benfits to what we do, and I think I might be right in saying that it's actually no real good for docs either, tbh


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## Irish Beast (Jun 16, 2009)

Sustanon is the only one I dont use cos I get test flu from it nearly every time after first jab


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Test is test period.

Attaching an different ester to it does not change anything but delivery time.

It wont make you grow any bigger (different blends), it wont make you hold anymore water, stable blood levels mean nothing when guys are shooting 10 times natty production.

Only diffrence would be this.

The ester attached to the gear adds weight depending on how fast or slow it gets released into the body.

So, for the sake of numbers, an ester-less gear lets say would have 100% testosterone based on weight.

Then as you add an ester you lose some testosterone as by weight it might weigh the same but have less testosterone due to the ester.

So, propionate would weigh less than enanthate, and enanthate would weight less than cypionate, and cypionate would weight less than deconate (heavy ester in sust).

So, mg per mg prop would have more testosterone but you would have to inject it more frequently, and many guys don't get on well with the PIP with prop.

Test is test, the sides are the same, which ever one does not hurt or is the cheapest, then it makes no difference at all.


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## Sureno (Feb 8, 2011)

I suppose the only dare I say benefit of sus over enth or cyp is that it will kick in quicker due to the prop in it other then that as a pharma grade drug you'd prob get more mg per ml then most other pharma grade test other then ugl stuff obviously butthen there are a couple exceptions to the last comment


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Sureno said:


> I suppose the only dare I say benefit of sus over enth or cyp is that it will kick in quicker due to the prop in it other then that as a pharma grade drug you'd prob get more mg per ml then most other pharma grade test other then ugl stuff obviously butthen there are a couple exceptions to the last comment


30mg of prop wont matter much anyway.

The test from enanthate or cypionate will be in the system in days.

Enanthate or cypionate has more mg per mg than sust anyway, so that measly bit of prop wont matter.

The other shorter ester in sust is rather heavy anyway.

And for the record enanthate or cypionate are not long esters.


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## Sureno (Feb 8, 2011)

hackskii said:


> 30mg of prop wont matter much anyway.
> 
> The test from enanthate or cypionate will be in the system in days.
> 
> ...


true but i never just took 1 amp of sus, so say 1000mg total would equate to a 120mg kick in the nuts so to speak lol but hey ho its off to jab i go lol


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Sureno said:


> true but i never just took 1 amp of sus, so say 1000mg total would equate to a 120mg kick in the nuts so to speak lol but hey ho its off to jab i go lol


One G of sust in one shot?

Wow, you are a bigger man than me, that stuff kicks my ass.

But lets remember, in 3 days the prop is all but gone, the long esters are pretty far from hitting.


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## Sureno (Feb 8, 2011)

hackskii said:


> One G of sust in one shot?
> 
> Wow, you are a bigger man than me, that stuff kicks my ass.
> 
> But lets remember, in 3 days the prop is all but gone, the long esters are pretty far from hitting.


Used to hit a G years a go when the English stuff was floating about or the Dutch version, didn't really bother me too much in terms of sus flu, haven't used sus in many years now but always thought each ester was released in weeks 1,2,3 and 4 but any way yeah I know about the half life of prop so now I use enth and front load for 20 days with prop


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## im sparticus (Oct 22, 2005)

ive voted cyp but i also use enanthate just as much. no difference imo


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## deeconfrost (Dec 15, 2010)

sus,is this injecting every 3-4 days?


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

deeconfrost said:


> sus,is this injecting every 3-4 days?


No, once a week, or if you like jabbing twice a week, but the long ester makes no difference when you jab.


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## BodyBuilding101 (Mar 8, 2006)

Sust cos i like the special magical blend ....


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## dazc (Oct 4, 2009)

tom jones said:


> Test prop and Enanthate, to little test prop in the Sust to be effective - so dont see the point.


sorry mate, but that makes no sense.

its still used by the body, regardless of what ester it came from. release rates, and blood level graphs are almost identical for sust, cyp and enanthate, in terms of how the body 'sees' things there is no difference at all.

while bonded the testosterone is inactive, once broken from the ester they are all exactly the same, ie testosterone.


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## dazc (Oct 4, 2009)

hackskii said:


> in 3 days the prop is all but gone, the long esters are pretty far from hitting.


thats just not true mate, sorry to disagree. even the longest esters are releasing some active compound almost from the moment they are injected. it just takes alot longer for it all to be released, hence the half lifes. If it was as you say, then it would all be inactive in the body and suddenly all released in one hit after a given number of days, and you would see a sharp rise, sudden peak, and sharp drop, in blood levels.


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## Outtapped (Dec 10, 2012)

dazc said:


> thats just not true mate, sorry to disagree. even the longest esters are releasing some active compound almost from the moment they are injected. it just takes alot longer for it all to be released, hence the half lifes. If it was as you say, then it would all be inactive in the body and suddenly all released in one hit after a given number of days, and you would see a sharp rise, sudden peak, and sharp drop, in blood levels.


Spot on daz, 48-72hours and enethate is active in the system. It's just the half life which is longer


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## Outtapped (Dec 10, 2012)

hackskii said:


> No, once a week, or if you like jabbing twice a week, but the long ester makes no difference when you jab.


Hacksii, I'm pretty sure this isnt entirely true? Mars was explaining to me the other day some other benefits of twice a week injecting not directly related to the testosterone


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## Mars (Aug 25, 2007)

It is true if you arent in the habit of splitting hairs lol, i know what hackskii is saying, even though he is very brief in what he typed, i'm sure Dazc knows what hacks was implying too  .

We all know hacks is a very knowledgable guy so i don't think he is making any fundamental errors, he just didn't go into an indepth explanation.


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## luther1 (Jul 31, 2011)

WhySoSerious said:


> Hacksii, I'm pretty sure this isnt entirely true? Mars was explaining to me the other day some other benefits of twice a week injecting not directly related to the testosterone


Twice a week injecting with test e is better because after 5 days your blood levels start to drop,which obviously you don't want,you want to keep them level and constant. Thats why injecting every 3.5 days you are injecting before they drop and keeping them balanced. Its generally these peaks and troughs that cause mood swings etc so keeping them level lowers that chance. The higher the dose you inject once a week then the higher you raise and lower your levels.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

dazc said:


> thats just not true mate, sorry to disagree. even the longest esters are releasing some active compound almost from the moment they are injected. it just takes alot longer for it all to be released, hence the half lifes. If it was as you say, then it would all be inactive in the body and suddenly all released in one hit after a given number of days, and you would see a sharp rise, sudden peak, and sharp drop, in blood levels.


Sure, you can disagree, here is a more indept post.

I was not wrong about the prop, it can hit you as little as 5 hours from one injection of 100mg propionate (viramone).

I used to do this myself when the little woman came to visit friday nights.

I would shoot at 3:30 on friday afternoon, and by 8:30 when she came to visit, it was on (libido boost).

Enanthate would not do this, and the reason why Swale (endo doc treats men for TRT) lets them use low dose HCG (250iu to 350iu) day 1 of injection (100mg cypionate per week), and says 6 and 7 of injection.

The HCG bumps natty test levels within 17 hours, so it is not all in and tapers, it tapers up, then down.

1000mg of undeconate once in the system will not fall below base levels after 6 weeks.

So, propionate 5 hours, out in 3 days, (I notice this personally).

Enanthate wont hit you day one, at the very least not to notice anything.

Those long esters take time to build up blood plasma levels, once they are up, they will stay up with weekly jabs.



WhySoSerious said:


> Hacksii, I'm pretty sure this isnt entirely true? Mars was explaining to me the other day some other benefits of twice a week injecting not directly related to the testosterone


 When we are injecting large doses of testosterone, we will be far over base levels.

Your own circadian rythem is not stable, nobodys levels are stable, this is why stable blood levels of testosterone wont make any difference in gains, but would for sides.

You shoot 500mg one shot, or split it, you will notice no difference in gains at all.

Many guys shoot once a week to keep scar tissue down, I have hard lumps in my glute, and honestly the added jabs are just a pain in the ass literally.

No need.



luther1 said:


> Twice a week injecting with test e is better because after 5 days your blood levels start to drop,which obviously you don't want,you want to keep them level and constant. Thats why injecting every 3.5 days you are injecting before they drop and keeping them balanced. Its generally these peaks and troughs that cause mood swings etc so keeping them level lowers that chance. The higher the dose you inject once a week then the higher you raise and lower your levels.


500mg test E takes about 3 weeks to clear, what drop makes any difference here?

5 times over base and you worry about a day or two?

Mood swings? :lol:

Again, stable means nothing unless you are on TRT doses that are 100mg a week and day 6 and 7 you are low, day 8 (first jab day) really low.

All the other BS is just that.

In case you missed my point.

If you are jabbing anything over TRT doses, no need to pincushin yourself, once a week is fine, only thing you may notice is estrogenic sides due to higher amounts.

Gains you would never notice and if you did, it would be placebo.

So, placebo, go for it, more holes each week, move on, mood swings, drop gear you dont need to cycle.


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## vetran (Oct 17, 2009)

hackskii said:


> Sure, you can disagree, here is a more indept post.
> 
> I was not wrong about the prop, *it can hit you as little as 5 hours from one injection of 100mg propionate (viramone).*
> 
> ...


fck all that mumbo jumbo science sh*te this is laymens terms made simple lol


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## Paco_pix (Feb 8, 2012)

What is clear here is that people who had gained more mass/quality with a certain ester than with other were using underground gear, or the diet changed, etc. If you use all legit steroids (pharmaceutical grade), different esters will not defer that much. I personally prefer short esters such as propionate, it kicks fast and gets out of the system fast, just how we want it. If the ingestion method were oral instead of injected, every bodybuilder would be using short esters.

The only difference I see with the people using different esters is the water retention, the longer the esther the more bloat you'll suffer.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

I doubt the ester has any influence on bloat, that is purely down to estrogenic sides, and diets.


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## Paco_pix (Feb 8, 2012)

hackskii said:


> I doubt the ester has any influence on bloat, that is purely down to estrogenic sides, and diets.


There is a real difference between using a shorts or using a long ester. Just try it yourself.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Paco_pix said:


> There is a real difference between using a shorts or using a long ester. Just try it yourself.


Why?

Same amount?

Was estrogen controlled?

Same diet?

Sorry, I fail to see why there would be any difference at all considering the amounts, in regard to estrogen management.


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

Paco_pix said:


> There is a real difference between using a shorts or using a long ester. Just try it yourself.


dude, what planet are you from? how does an ester make you retain more/less water? if you look at my avi, you can see I've sunken cheeks, and am vascular with little bloat... thats on 2g of long estered test, 1g of equipoise and 600mg tren e (all long esters) AND 150mg/day oxys... AND i was on my 6th month straight on cycle.. AND I was in thailand/cambodia on honeymoon... but I ate NO rice.. so no bloat.. i had grilled fish/chicken and salads...

what you have to realise is that ALL the ester does is dictate the speed of release of the base chemical out of the ester while its in the muscle (depot); the ester itself has no effect on your metabolism...


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## Paco_pix (Feb 8, 2012)

ausbuilt said:


> dude, what planet are you from? how does an ester make you retain more/less water? if you look at my avi, you can see I've sunken cheeks, and am vascular with little bloat... thats on 2g of long estered test, 1g of equipoise and 600mg tren e (all long esters) AND 150mg/day oxys... AND i was on my 6th month straight on cycle.. AND I was in thailand/cambodia on honeymoon... but I ate NO rice.. so no bloat.. i had grilled fish/chicken and salads...
> 
> what you have to realise is that ALL the ester does is dictate the speed of release of the base chemical out of the ester while its in the muscle (depot); the ester itself has no effect on your metabolism...


Dude, take it easy, we are here to learn, not to attack each other.

*Esters: Much more than just half-life&#8230;*

by Anthony Roberts

Author of: Beyond steroids, Anabolic steroids - Ultimate Research Guide Vol. 1, Co-Author of Dr.Jekyll & Mr.Hyde: Body Transformation From Both Sides of the Force

By the end of this article, you're going to know:

• What an ester is and how it works

• Esters greatly impact much more than just half-life

• Esters influence the degree of a steroid's conversion to estrogen

• Esters actually make a given steroid more or less anabolic

• Esters influence peak plasma levels of a given steroid

• Half-life/Active-life charts are all basically incorrect

Bold claims? Keep reading. I'm about to make a case for all of this being true&#8230;and by the end, you're going to agree with me. Let's go back a bit, first&#8230;

When I was in fifth grade I would take my math assignment home every day, and skip to the end of the book for the answers. Math was boring and I had better things to do with my time. And in the end, it was about putting the correct answer in the correct spot, and I really couldn't see the point of understanding the process. I never understood the argument for being able to do long division&#8230;

I wondered if my teachers had ever heard of calculators.

I still spend most of my days looking for answers to questions now, and I still usually only care about the answer. But occasionally, I have an answer, and I need to go back and figure out why that answer is correct.

Let's go back a bit more now&#8230;

An ester is essentially the thing attached to an anabolic steroid to allow it to extend its duration of effects. When you talk about "testosterone cypionate" or "testosterone enanthate" you are really talking about testosterone and an ester (cypionate or enanthate, respectively).

Not a single day goes by that I don't receive an e-mail from somebody on their first cycle asking me about how frequently they should inject something-or-other; whether they need to inject Testosteone Cypionate every 3.5 days, or whether it's ok to let it go to day 4. They also "know" that testosterone is just testosterone, and besides determining the active life (or half life, or whatever), the ester doesn't actually change anything about the testosterone itself.

I just don't have the heart to tell them that everything they think they know about esters namely that they only influence the half-life and active life&#8230;is probably just plain wrong.

I'm going to make a case for different rates of testosterone conversion to estrogen based on different esters&#8230;and I'm also going to make a case for different testosterones (depending on ester) actually having differing anabolic potential. I also think this is applicable to virtually all steroids that aromatize and probably to all steroids that are able to convert to DHT or something 5a-Reduced.

Let's take a look at some anecdotal evidence first, then I'll give you some studies, and wrap it up with some nice little charts, which will tell you exactly which testosterones do what. First, the problem, as I see it:

Testosterone Propionate bloats me (and everyone else) less than Testosterone Enanthate. But&#8230;we often hear (and repeat) that "Testosterone is Testosterone" (especially on the internet, in steroid books, and in all the bodybuilding rags). But if test is test, then why do we see different effects from different esters? We gain more weight, have more water retention, and bloat much more with longer testosterone esters. This also seems to apply to the Nandrolones, as most people find Nandrolone Phenylpropionate (NPP) bloats them less than Nandrolone Decanoate (Deca). On the other hand, using a long ester with Masteron or Trenbolone doesn't add any bloating at all.

What the hell is going on here?

By the end of this article you'll think that testosterone is not just testosterone anymore, and you'll know why using the propionate ester will bloat you less than the enanthate ester. But don't just skip to the end&#8230;without understanding, the answers are as meaningless as the answers I was turning in to my fifth grade math teacher. Besides, you'll wanna look smart next time someone asks you "why", right?

But before I get into why everything you know about esters is probably wrong, let's take a further look into this stuff and see what we're missing.

And we're going to start with the idea (and history) of the ester&#8230;

The first anabolic steroid that scientists added an ester to was testosterone. Straight testosterone is absorbed easily during oral administration but is pretty much destroyed by the liver soon after. So the injectable (or "parenternal") route, for testosterone, was considered far superior, despite the inconvenience of having to inject (unestrified) testosterone every day. Until that point, testosterone was the only game in town for androgen therapy. Then in 1953, 19-nortestosterone was discovered. And furthermore, it was discovered that an oral dose of 60mgs/kg/day of 19-nortestosterone was needed for the same results as 7mgs/kg/day of the injectable (non-estered) version. So an oral, in this case (19-nortestosterone with no alkylation or methylation) requires a dose of about 8.5x the same drug given by injection (without ester), to elicit the same results (Anabolic steroids and Sports). I think this is about right. If you were to down a bottle of testosterone suspension you'd likely need to be drinking a bottle a day to see any kind of decent results.

On the other hand, you'd only need 100mgs a day if you were injecting it. Therefore, we don't see unaltered (non-estered) testosterone available as an oral formula. The best (oral) solution is to use 17- alkylated derivatives of testosterone (such as methyltestosterone), which are considerably more resistant to destruction in the liver; although, the potential for hepatotoxicity is much higher with this modification. So there is a way to take testosterone (or any steroid) and make it orally useful. But, of course, there is a way to make injecting them more convenient also, and that is to add an ester.

Adding an ester delays the amount of time that it takes for the steroid to leave the body, although peak concentrations are realized (with both long as well as short esters) within a day or two at most.

The esterification of the testosterone molecule at the 17-ß-hydroxy position makes the molecule hydrophobic (hydro means water, and phobic means "scared of"&#8230;just like any other phobia) and extends its duration of action. This means you don't need daily injections of testosterone suspension, but rather, you can choose to utilize an estrified version. Although there were implants available previously (ouch!), testosterone propionate and enanthate were the first ones to widely be used clinically. You can see the 17th position on this diagram (where it says "17" of course)

Figure 2:

Testosterone , estrified

It is the slow release of the hydrophobic testosterone ester from its oily depot in the muscle that accounts for its extended duration. The longer the side chain, the greater the hydrophobicity of the ester and the greater the duration of action. Thus testosterone enanthate with its longer side chain has a longer duration of action than testosterone propionate. The more carbons an ester has, typically, the longer it will take to release the parent hormone into the bloodstream. Esters have even been used to make steroids orally available (notably with Primobolan tabs and Testosterone capsules- Methenolone Acetate and Testosterone Undecanoate respectively).

However, testosterone undecanoate capsules are not nearly as effective as testosterone injections, based on both real world as well as clinical evidence, Primobolan tabs don't stack up well against the injectable version, and and Trenbolone is roughly 100x more anabolic when you inject it instead of taking it orally:

Figure 3:

Comparison of the relative anabolic potency of oral (po) vs. injectable (sc) dosing of Trenbolone on LABC muscle. (Toxicol. Sci., Dec 2002; 70: 202 - 211.)

Whether taken orally or injected, an esterfied steroid molecule is temporarily deactivated. In an injection, the ester chain temporarily blocks the 17-ß position, making binding to the androgen receptor is impossible. When the compound enters the bloodstream, esterase enzymes cleave off (hydrolyze) the ester, thus restoring the functional hydroxyl (OH) group at the 17-ß position, enabling the drug to attach to the androgen receptor and exert its effects.

Figure 4:

Orally Active steroids

So now that we've taken a look at some different oral and injectable steroids, and their structures, you can see exactly what I'm talking about with the idea of adding an ester (in the parenternal box) versus the box showing the oral. You can see the long faty acid chain at the end, which we already know delays release of the hormone.

But that's not all the ester does&#8230;

In 1954, a researcher named Reifstein and his colleagues compared an injection of Testosterone Propionate with Testosterone Enanthate, and they found that the injection of testosterone propionate resulted in nitrogen retention of 1.02g/day with a total measurable anabolic activity of 12 days, while the Enanthate version resulted in nitrogen retention of 1.76g/day and had a total measurable anabolic activity of 33 days. (1). Therefore, a 200mg shot of Testosterone (long ester) is going to have a greater overall anabolic effect than a 200mg shot of a short ester. That's actually kind of common sense, isn't it?

So does that mean that the ester effects the anabolic ability of the actual steroid. Well, yes, that would seem to be the case. If a steroid hangs out in your body for a longer amount of time, and helps you retain more nitrogen, then its overall anabolic effect would be greater. Granted, they're studying a single injection- but with a typical injection schedule of testosterone propionate, as compared to testosterone enanthate, most people gain more weight from the enanthate version. Think about it; experience tells us that with an every other day injection schedule of 100mgs of testosterone propionate versus 400mgs/week of testosterone enanthate, most people gain more weight from the enanthate. Yet, the actual amount of injected (pure) testosterone is virtually the same, even when you subtract the weight of the ester.

Here's my position, S-P-E-L-L-E-D out for you:

Testosterone, depending on the ester, will give you different effects in a variety of areas.

Yeah, I'm saying the ester will have it's own effect on how the testosterone is metabolized and used by your body. And that will give you different effects, depending on the ester you choose.

Testosterone

I thought testosterone is testosterone? Isn't that what they say on the internet? If you hear it on a steroid forum, isn't it true? Well, research dating as far back as 1954 says no. In fact, (primate) research as recent as this decade seems to say the same thing. Alright, I can hear the pubmed-scientists and keyboard-cowboys all over the internet shouting in protest right now. I know that primate studies aren't perfect, but they're offering us a clue as to why we all gain more weight on the longer esters versus the shorter esters. And in this case, they offer us a perfect- even elegant - explanation.

Why do we need an explanation for this? Well, because for literally decades we've been using short esters for cutting cycles and long esters for bulking cycles, and for all that time we've also been claiming that "testosterone is testosterone" regardless of ester. If we actually believed that last "fact", we'd just be using the longest esters all the time, because they're more cost effective per bottle.

But we don't; and we see different effects on water retention, gyno, weight gain, and other parameters, depending on the ester lengths.

Here's what scientists found out when they examined different ester lengths:

Testosterone ester length can (and does) influence suppression of the gonadal axis, effects on anabolic parameters, and lipid metabolism.

Furthermore, they reassure us that their results are most likely transferable to human males. Further-furthermore (I made that up), their research indicates that esters influence conversion to estrogen.

(2) And when you think about what experience tells us, doesn't that agree with the real world? Don't people get gyno more frequently, more water retention, and higher bodyweight gains with longer esters? When is the last time you saw someone using a short ester and still need an anti-estrogen? And more estrogen also means more hypothalamic-pituitary-testicular axis suppression, because of the body's negative feedback loop. Haven't we always known that long esters suppress you more than short ones? It's not just the time they are in the body, but also the amount that they convert to estrogen. Do the math if you don't believe me&#8230;it can't just be the extra couple days that long esters are active in the body. It's the estrogen conversion.

Thus - the amount you suppress your natural hormonal system, the potential anabolic effect, and the effects on lipids, are all influenced by the ester length. Esters are not just something that delays the release of the hormone into the body&#8230;their length plays a crucial role in what degree the steroid actually performs certain functions.

I know it goes against everything that is typically said about esters, but think about it&#8230;don't we use different testosterone esters (in the real world) for different things&#8230;.long esters for bulking and short esters for cutting? I'm presenting new information

Alright&#8230;let me tell you about a study now. Scientists (real ones, with lab coats and everything) examined 3 different testosterone preperations with different ester lengths. What they found was that the shortest ester provided the highest peak levels of testosterone, followed by the medium length ester, and the lowest peak level was found with the longest ester. Even a two- to threefold higher dose of the shortest acting ester studied did not fully achieve the effects of longer esters concerning gonadal and metabolic functions. (2) Did I mention that the amount of pure testosterone (minus the ester) was the same in all injections? So what does that tell us?

The ester influences far more than just the release time and active life of the parent hormone.

Estradiol levels were significantly higher with the longest ester. Yes&#8230;Using longer estered testosterone will cause a higher rise in estrogen. And, although the same total amount of testosterone was injected in all groups, the group using the longest acting version gained the most weight.

(Estrogen)

Also of interest in this study is that even though testosterone was used for 28 weeks in a row, the shortest ester allowed the most rapid return of natural hormonal levels. Sperm count also remained highest with the shortest ester, and lipid profiles were worse with the longer acting testosterone. And once again, even though this was only a primate study, the authors believe these results are transferable to human males&#8230;and bodybuilders who have used different esters for different goals will confirm this as well.

The identifiable pattern of exposure and degree of aromatization and estrogen, rather than overall exposure to testosterone, determined the differing effects of the different esters. Longer esters cause a higher rise in estrogen (even when the total dose of testosterone is identical). That's why we all get more water retention on testosterone enanthate, while testosterone propionate doesn't cause much if any. This is the explanation that we have been waiting for&#8230;because I know that even when people say "test is test" they don't really believe it- or we'd be seeing short ester bulking cycles and long-ester cutting cycles.

Oh&#8230;and if this weren't the case, then why is it that people almost always talk about using an anti-estrogen with long estered testosterone and not usually with the short estered variety?

Have I mentioned that testosterone's effect on Growth Hormone and IGF-I (two very anabolic hormones) are also dependant on aromatization to estrogen? Again, this is why we gain more muscle with the long estered tests. (3, 4, 5). This means that you actually get far more anabolism from the longer estered testosterones, because the increased conversion to estrogen will provide a greater elevation in your GH and IGF-1 levels. And many other positive effects of testosterone are actually dependent on it's conversion to estrogen as well. (6, 7, 8)

But does this apply across the board, to esterfied (aromatizable/DHT-convertible) hormones other than testosterone?

It probably does&#8230;in fact I'm pretty much positive that it does. Let's take a look at the 19-nortestosterone derived family of anabolics, specifically Nandrolone.

When comparing different preparations of Nandrolone, many of these similar properties were found when a long ester (decanoate) was compared with a short one (Phenylpropionate).Peak plasma levels are higher with the shorter esters, suppression is greater with longer esters, and so on. (9,10) Of course, with Nandrolone (compared with testosterone) the degree of suppression is pretty harsh regardless of the actual ester used&#8230;but still, you can see more lengthy suppression with the longer ester. And another study also shows a higher anabolic effect when longer nandrolone esters are compared with short ones (11,12). Basically, what I'm saying here is that we're seeing the same thing with different Nandrolone esters as we saw with testosterone esters; more imnportantly, the scientific research confirms what we know to be true in our own cycles, and also gives support for my explanation as to why this is happening.

It's the ester length! And it sure as hell isn't just affecting the half-life! Well&#8230;.it's likely that the release of the parent hormone is subject to different aromatization levels based on it's release time&#8230;but still, the end result is that the ester is greatly influencing the actual effects because of this.

Unfortunately, in this study, only one injection was used&#8230;but again, we know that people who've used Nandrolone Phenylpropionate get less bloating then when they've used Nandrolone Decanoate.

Let's go back to the other two drugs I mentioned earlier, namely the long estered versions of Trenbolone and Masteron. It doesn't matter what ester you use with them, because neither of them convert to estrogen at all. In fact, since one is already derived from DHT, and the other isn't subject to 5a-reduction, neither "convert" to DHT at all.

Dihydrotestosterone

In order for a hormone to become the dihydro version, is must be 5alpha-reduced (or already exist as such).

Does ester length also influence 5a-Reduction? I suspect it may. But in this case, I would imagine that the long esters convert less readily to DHT (though I guess I could be wrong).

If I'm right, then it would seem to give us another explanation of why we gain less weight on short esters&#8230;DHT is a potent androgen, but a disappointing anabolic, due to deactivation by the 3-alpha Hydroxysteroid Dehydrogenase enzyme. Increased conversion to DHT in short esters inversely correlated with a decreased conversion to estrogen would provide us with a neat, bow-wrapped, conclusion to all of this. I tend to think that the fact that ester length doesn't have any real effect on 1. non-aromatizing androgens which also 2. can't be further 5a-reduced - gives us strong inductive evidence to believe that there is more DHT conversion with short esters. Unfortunately, the research doesn't give me 100% reassurance on the DHT-thing (however, the estrogen thing regarding esters is set-in-stone- gospel now, as far as I'm concerned). There is, however, some strong evidence in medical journals to support my thoughts on this (13, 14, 15, 16).

I'm speculating that short esters convert to more (not-really-very-anabolic) DHT, and that would also give us a clue as to why stuff like testosterone propionate is better at getting us a nice hard physique than testosterone enanthate. It fits&#8230;I just can't be 100% sure on it. But I hope you joined me in that logical leap&#8230;because it sure gives us a safe landing on the other side, doesn't it? I think this modulation and difference depending on ester in DHT levels is much more modest than those we see with estrogen levels (depending on ester).

To sum everything up in a nice neat package:

• Longer esters are more anabolic than shorter ones

*• Shorter esters cause less water retention*

*
**•* *Longer esters cause more gonadal suppression*

*
• Shorter esters cause a higher peak plasma level*

• Most of this is only applicable to steroids that are estrified, aromatizable, and able to convert to DHT

I think I've made a pretty reasonable case for esters influencing far more than just active-life or half-life&#8230;and I think we're about to see a new paradigm in the use of esters for different reasons.

I rest my case.

References:

1. Reifenstein, et. al. Studies comparing the effects of certain testosterone esters in man.J Am Geriatr Soc. 1954 May;2(5):293-8.. PMID: 13162731

2. Journal of Andrology, Vol. 24, No. 5, September/October 2003 Copyright © American Society of Andrology Pharmacokinetics and Degree of Aromatization Rather Than Total Dose of Different Preparations Determine the Effects of Testosterone: A Nonhuman Primate Study in Macaca fascicularisGERHARD F. WEINBAUER*, CARL-JOACHIM PARTSCH, MICHAEL ZITZMANN, STEFAN SCHLATT AND EBERHARD NIESCHLAG

3. Keenan BS, Richards GE, Ponder SW, Dallas JS, Nagamani M, Smith ER 1993 Androgen-stimulated pubertal growth: the effects of testosterone and dihydrotestosterone on growth hormone and insulin-like growth factor-I in the treatment of short stature and delayed puberty. J Clin Endocrinol Metab 76:996-1001

4. Eakman GD, Dallas JS, Ponder SW, Keenan BS 1996 The effects of testosterone and dihydrotestosterone on hypothalamic regulation of growth hormone secretion. J Clin Endocrinol Metab 81:1217-1223

5. [Veldhuis JD, Metzger DL, Martha Jr PM, Mauras N, Kerrigan JR, Keenan B, Rogol AD, Pincus SM 1997 Estrogen and testosterone, but not a nonaromatizable androgen, direct network integration of the hypothalamo-somatotrope (growth hormone)-insulin-like growth factor I axis in the human: evidence from pubertal pathophysiology and sex-steroid hormone replacement. J Clin Endocrinol Metab 82:3414-3420

6. The role of aromatization in testosterone supplementation: Effects on cognition in older men M. M. Cherrier, A. M. Matsumoto, J. K. Amory, S. Ahmed, W. Bremner, E. R. Peskind, M. A. Raskind, M. Johnson, and S. Craft Neurology, Jan 2005; 64: 290 - 296

7. The Complex Role of Estrogens in Inflammation Rainer H. Straub Endocr. Rev., Aug 2007; 28: 521 - 574

8. The Protective Effects of Estrogen on the Cardiovascular SystemMichael E. Mendelsohn and Richard H. Karas N. Engl. J. Med., Jun 1999; 340: 1801 - 1811.

9. Pharmacokinetics and Pharmacodynamics of Nandrolone Esters in Oil Vehicle: Effects of Ester, Injection Site and Injection VolumeCharles F. Minto, Christopher Howe, Susan Wishart, Ann J. Conway, and David J. HandelsmanJ. Pharmacol. Exp. Ther., Apr 1997; 281: 93.

10. Belkien, L., Schurmeyer, T., Hano, R., Gunnarson, P. O. and Nieschlag, E.: Pharmacokinetics of 19-nortestosterone esters in normal men. J. steroid Biochem. 5: 623-629, 1985

11. 1. Chaudry, M.A.Q.; James, K.C.; et al. J. Pharm. Pharmac., 1976, 28, 882-885

12. Chaudry, M.A.Q.; James, K.C. J. Med. Chem., 1974, 17, 157-161.

13. Comparison of testosterone, dihydrotestosterone, luteinizing hormone, and follicle-stimulating hormone in serum after injection of testosterone enanthate of testosterone cypionate.Fertil Steril. 1980 Feb;33(2):201-3.

14. Behre HM, Nieschlag E. Comparative pharmacokinetics of testosterone esters. In: Nieschlag E, Behre HM, eds. Testosterone: Action, Deficiency, Substitution. 2nd ed. Berlin: Springer;1998:329-348.

15. Pharmacokinetic properties of testosterone propionate in normal menM Fujioka, Y Shinohara, S Baba, M Irie, and K Inoue J. Clin. Endocrinol. Metab., Dec 1986; 63: 1361 - 1364

16. Injectable testosterone undecanoate has more favourable pharmacokinetics and pharmacodynamics than testosterone enanthateCJ Partsch, GF Weinbauer, R Fang, and E NieschlagEur. J. Endocrinol., Apr 1995; 132: 514 - 519.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Paco_pix said:


> *Esters: Much more than just half-life&#8230;*
> 
> by Anthony Roberts


The whole problem with the article besides being a load of crap is the author.

All I had to do is read his name.

He is a writer, that is what he does, he knocks off others material and that's it.

Dude had a supplement website with steroid sounding names and scammed tons of people.

I think he even might be in jail right now.

In all seriousness, esters will not affect bloat other than spiking estrogen faster or slower and all the bloating would be that of estrogen which we need to manage anyway.

I have to edit my post to add this, oh man this is funny:

To sum everything up in a nice neat package:

• Longer esters are more anabolic than shorter ones

• Shorter esters cause less water retention

• Longer esters cause more gonadal suppression

• Shorter esters cause a higher peak plasma level

Can you read that longer esters are more anabolic than shorter ones?

Lets look at it more closely and I will show you how this is utter rubbish.

First of all taking into consideration of ester weight, the faster the ester the lighter it will be.

Beings that the steroid powder is weighted with the ester attached the longer ester would actually have less mg per mg than a shorter ester gear.

So, actually the opposite would be here as the shorter ester would have more mg per ml than a longer one.

Man, that is funny.

Longer esters cause more gonadal suppression?

Hmmm, could that be due to it being in your system longer?

If the same mg were taken every week, and you ran the shorter ester equaling blood plasma levels, all would be the same.

But the fact that some gear takes far longer to clear, then yes his statement is true.

Shorter esters cause a higher peak plasma level

Yes, this is true, but the clear the system faster too, so who cares, as an average over weeks time, it makes no difference really, in and out faster, and higher peak plasma levels for a shorter time, and you could be literally flat if you jabbed propionate once a week.


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## NickR24 (Sep 9, 2009)

hackskii said:


> Test is test period.
> 
> Attaching an different ester to it does not change anything but delivery time.
> 
> ...


most simple and accurate description of synthetic test I have ever seen.


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## NickR24 (Sep 9, 2009)

luther1 said:


> Twice a week injecting with test e is better because after 5 days your blood levels start to drop,which obviously you don't want,you want to keep them level and constant. Thats why injecting every 3.5 days you are injecting before they drop and keeping them balanced. Its generally these peaks and troughs that cause mood swings etc so keeping them level lowers that chance. The higher the dose you inject once a week then the higher you raise and lower your levels.


noticed no difference in jabbing test E every 5 or 7 days, felt fine on both.

I have got 10 days without a jab of test E before a couple times, and on day 10 I started to feel like maybe my test levels were a little low...more tired, boner not quite as solid.

this was everytime btw.


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## tprice (Aug 28, 2011)

lol at starting an arguement then quoting about 6 pages of a book!

cant beat old fashioned experience from aus and hacks!


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## tom42021 (Jan 19, 2012)

Haha yeah I've been told that I remember believing it when I first started working out


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## stone14 (Mar 24, 2005)

(op) its like saying anadrol or anapolon, or dianabol or naposim :smartass:


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## Stuey (Mar 23, 2012)

Prop, deff, it's short-acting, so you have to pin up a great deal, but it's well worth it!


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## Pardoe (Mar 26, 2012)

tbf ive only used test E and prop, and out of them i prefered test E, never used sust


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## benki11 (Sep 17, 2010)

Sustanon is cheapest Steroid you can get???

I wonder why is that so :whistling:


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## BigAggs (Apr 9, 2011)

Enanthate for me, mate!


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## valleymentality (Feb 17, 2011)

I just mix up a ml of prop(100mg) and a ml of enanthate (250mg) and jab it twicw a week. is it more complicated than that? am I missing something?


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## bosha01 (Mar 12, 2012)

enanthate 500mg a week pluss 400 mg dec


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## baggsy1436114680 (Jan 23, 2010)

never tried sus or prop before, might do sooon


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## infernal0988 (Jun 16, 2011)

sust is good and for some reason it does not bloat me as much as other esters like enanthate? Iknow its all test but their is something to it imo


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## infocus (Jun 12, 2009)

Prop all the way. 50mg every day. Love it. I've pinned sust b4 and it hated me, made the site swell like a mo fo. This was back in the day when you could get orgenon all day long. I pinned it **** leg shoulders same reaction. Tried diff brands and site still swelled up. Enth hates me as well, blood pressure goes through roof and a lot of nose bleeds.


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## Kung fu guy (Apr 7, 2013)

Don't know why but i like cyp. JMO


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## skipper1987 (May 1, 2013)

Only ever used enanthate. Using.wc sustanon on my next cycle but after seeing the bashing sustanon has just received am a bit gutted i bout 2x20ml vials. Is it really that pants?


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## infernal0988 (Jun 16, 2011)

skipper1987 said:


> Only ever used enanthate. Using.wc sustanon on my next cycle but after seeing the bashing sustanon has just received am a bit gutted i bout 2x20ml vials. Is it really that pants?


No its not test is bloody test dont listen to these people telling you its sh!te they probably either expected to much from the cycle or they are just b!tching cause it didnt yield the results they wanted it to. There is no difference between the 2 in terms of results test is test like i said no matter what the ester. If people dont get what they want out of a cycle they usually blame the gear & NEVER EVER look at their diet or training, cause they think they know so damn much.


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## skipper1987 (May 1, 2013)

infernal0988 said:


> No its not test is bloody test dont listen to these people telling you its sh!te they probably either expected to much from the cycle or they are just b!tching ycause it didnt yield the results they wanted it to. There is no difference between the 2 in terms of results test is test like i said no matter what the ester. If people dont get what they want out of a cycle they usually blame the gear & NEVER EVER look at their diet or training, cause they think they know so damn much.


Thanks mate this is what i was thinking too. So do you use sustanon alot? If so its clearly working for you judging by ur avi.


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## infernal0988 (Jun 16, 2011)

skipper1987 said:


> Thanks mate this is what i was thinking too. So do you use sustanon alot? If so its clearly working for you judging by ur avi.


I used sustanon twice & it does what test E , cyp and all other test esters do. Its no different from any other form of testosterone. Trust me it will work just fine & then some.


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## skipper1987 (May 1, 2013)

infernal0988 said:


> I used sustanon twice & it does what test E , cyp and all other test esters do. Its no different from any other form of testosterone. Trust me it will work just fine & then some.


Good to hear throwing some tren and blue hearts in the mix too winter bulking.


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## graham58 (Apr 7, 2013)

gettin on abit said:


> Hi Guys im new here so looking for some advice, i was right into training hard 20 years ago and was taking testosterone for a couple of years but haven't done any type of training for that long so i started at the Gym 5 weeks ago which gave me the bug again so i decided to read up on steroids s**t its changed so much so i thought a i ask an old friend whats the best thing to use for me now he says EAS test 400 and sus is what to use now , what do you think guys need some help here im 45 and got a bit of a belly as well!!!


i think 5 weeks training is a bit too soon to be thinking about steriods,you need to get yourself back into shape naturally.steriods wont make you ,hard work will


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## graham58 (Apr 7, 2013)

guitarman1477 said:


> newbie here and ive never taken a steroid in my life, but wonder if any of you boys can advise me, im 56, and my sex drive is a bot low, even though ive had my testosterone checked and it shows normal. can anyone tell me or adviise me if sus will help me have some sort of sexual attitude? if so what amounts and what colour needles etc for a jab in the **** and how often? sorry for all questions but im not sure how to go on, thanks for any help


i think you will get more responce from the trt forum


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## boyflow (Jan 7, 2014)

Hi to all the senior,

i would to get some advice on sustanon 250.

this is my story.

i am 24

height 5'8 feet

weight 121 pound

i hit the gym 3-4 days a week.

1 - 2 hours a day.

taking some mass gainer. (tried about 4 to 5 brands)

use pre work out.

my meal's

b'fast

4 half boiled egg

some bread

mass gainer

lunch

rice (meat/chicken/fish)

potato

tea time

bread

beef buger

dinner (after workout)

rice (meat/chicken/fish)

beef patties

i've only gained 10lbs,

and i've been thinking to take sustanon 250 for a try.

would the sustanon 250 help me in anyway?


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## DutchTony (Sep 25, 2011)

Test e


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## DutchTony (Sep 25, 2011)

boyflow said:


> Hi to all the senior,
> 
> i would to get some advice on sustanon 250.
> 
> ...


Cool story son but it's always better to have a twist at the end......


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## jayDP (Jan 31, 2012)

Found out from a top uk pro that a few pros switch esters of test each month as they believe the different esters attach to the reseptors diffentely so for example....

Month1: sust

Month2: test cyp

Month3: test enathate

Repeat

Maybe it's crap but worth a shot if it's not costing any more then usual


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## MrM (Feb 6, 2012)

jayDP said:


> Found out from a top uk pro that a few pros switch esters of test each month as they believe the different esters attach to the reseptors diffentely so for example....
> 
> Month1: sust
> 
> ...


The ester doesn't attach to anything, it gets removed


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## jayDP (Jan 31, 2012)

MrM said:


> The ester doesn't attach to anything, it gets removed


Yeah I thought that too


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## shadow4509 (Jan 27, 2010)

jayDP said:


> Found out from a top uk pro that a few pros switch esters of test each month as they believe the different esters attach to the reseptors diffentely so for example....
> 
> Month1: sust
> 
> ...


I also know pro's that say they do this, although they don't use sust.

Usually something like this:

Test e week 1-5

Test c week 5-10

Test p week 10-16

Don't really see the point, obviously some benefit of using prop at the end for easier clearance and pct.

I think it's more the fact one of them an AP rep and can shift more stock


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## lew007 (Nov 7, 2003)

Have used 1g sust before and it was nice at that dose, the sort esters are just working for you at those doses. Have also ran 700mg prop a week which was nice too, 200mg eod - the jabbing gets tiresome but I could really feel the effects from week 1.

Lew


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## strecharmstrong (Oct 29, 2013)

I don't like sustonon but I do like other blends like long esterd t400's


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## stone14 (Mar 24, 2005)

I'm not fussed all the same to me, anything I can jab once per week is fine to me


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## gavzilla (Feb 7, 2010)

I don't think test is test. I cycled test prop using 2 different reliable brands. I noticed it shut me down quick so I wasn't getting the nice high sex drive as I would from Enenthate and the gaines were not as good as enenthate or sust. When I changed to sust I noticed a difference in size , muscularity , veins ect. I find fast acting esters for me personally don't work as well. I'm now going to try cycling test deconate to see if that's any better than cyp, enth and sust. I always find after 14 days after my 250 mg sust injection my sex drive increases which is the peak time of deconate .


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## will1 (Jul 14, 2014)

lew007 said:


> Have used 1g sust before and it was nice at that dose, the sort esters are just working for you at those doses. Have also ran 700mg prop a week which was nice too, 200mg eod - the jabbing gets tiresome but I could really feel the effects from week 1.
> 
> Lew


cyp and enth r same just dif half life ,u have 2 find out what works 4 u ,we all dif , ALL .so get to know what yr putting in yr body 1st I'd stack d-dol with enth or cyp, winny as well (make u nice and hard skin) hold Walter ou so if u go lot cash ANAVAR pro s use them to fin get the water off cus all roids lots of it is water

.

Good luck champ


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## will1 (Jul 14, 2014)

will1 said:


> cyp and enth r same just dif half life ,u have 2 find out what works 4 u ,we all dif , ALL .so get to know what yr putting in yr body 1st I'd stack d-dol with enth or cyp, winny as well (make u nice and hard skin) hold Walter ou so if u go lot cash ANAVAR pro s use them to fin get the water off cus all roids lots of it is water
> 
> .
> 
> Good luck champ


prop u want 2 jab every 2-3 days look at the half life and use 200mgvevery 2-3 days

That's the way I do it pal


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## will1 (Jul 14, 2014)

lew007 said:


> Have used 1g sust before and it was nice at that dose, the sort esters are just working for you at those doses. Have also ran 700mg prop a week which was nice too, 200mg eod - the jabbing gets tiresome but I could really feel the effects from week 1.
> 
> Lew


cyp and enth r same just dif half life ,u have 2 find out what works 4 u ,we all dif , ALL .so get to know what yr putting in yr body 1st I'd stack d-dol with enth or cyp, winny as well (make u nice and hard skin) hold Walter ou so if u go lot cash ANAVAR pro s use them to fin get the water off cus all roids lots of it is water

.

Good luck champ


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## Drew1975 (Jan 3, 2012)

owt as long as its real gear


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## IGotTekkers (Jun 6, 2012)

tom jones said:


> Test prop and Enanthate, to little test prop in the Sust to be effective - so dont see the point.


Not if you jab 1ml per day lol


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## Wallace86 (Jan 20, 2013)

Il vote at end of this cycle haha ran test e and prop now running sust so far so good ??


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## vetran (Oct 17, 2009)

IGotTekkers said:


> No*t if you jab 1ml per day lo*l


exactly ,ive been in this thread a while back and i dont see the point in prop in sust unless your squirting 1g + but on saying that sust was for trt patients


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## vetran (Oct 17, 2009)

also like to add whatever the meagre amount of prop that was in pharma sust a few years back it still *****d on all the ug stuff you get now


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## stevieboy100 (Oct 30, 2012)

vetran said:


> also like to add whatever the meagre amount of prop that was in pharma sust a few years back it still *****d on all the ug stuff you get now


try a nice blend of enth and prop like apollo t350 very nice 1ml mon wed fri


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## vetran (Oct 17, 2009)

stevieboy100 said:


> try a nice *blend of enth and prop like apollo t350 v*ery nice 1ml mon wed fri


whats the prop ratio on that blend mate


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## stevieboy100 (Oct 30, 2012)

vetran said:


> whats the prop ratio on that blend mate


250 enth 100 prop bud


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## latsius (Jul 16, 2012)

Tried test cyp recently prefer it to test e to be honest. Felt i got more tolerable sides for some reason


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## latsius (Jul 16, 2012)

vetran said:


> whats the prop ratio on that blend mate


Excel test400 also has 100mg prop 150 test e. 150 test cyp.

That stuff was nice split 0.75 x 3 shots per week had me feeling well lol


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## herb (Nov 1, 2014)

Sustanon and enthanate dose it for me


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## Thomasfreddy (Oct 12, 2014)

weeman said:


> depends how much of it your using at a time......if your using 10-12 ml of it a week then the prop in it is gner be pretty effective.


Who uses 10-12 ml of sus a week ??

That's a lot bro ???


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## Benchbum (Apr 20, 2011)

Thomasfreddy said:


> Who uses 10-12 ml of sus a week ??
> 
> That's a lot bro ???


Nearly all the polish lads down my gym it turns out after chatting to them yesterday


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## klauz619 (Feb 20, 2015)

whys e so popular compared to c they seem pretty much identical


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## stone14 (Mar 24, 2005)

klauz619 said:


> whys e so popular compared to c they seem pretty much identical


E ia the European version, c is the usa version, in usa you will probably find c more popular.


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## SKSajid (Apr 2, 2015)

Cycle system :-

first time please advise if it's right :-

Sustanon 250 1 ml 1 shot in week

Trenbolone acetate 100 mg 1 ml 3 shots per week

Clen 80 mcg ed morning

T3 25 mcg morning empty stomach

and 25 mcg after dinner

Total 2 tab ed

Tamoxifen citrate 20 mg ed from week 2 till week 10 and

Another 20 days in night (pct)

Liv 52 1 tab morning, night

For 2 months

Milk thistle 1000 mg ed for 2 months.

Udiliv 150 1 tab morning, night ed for 10 days.

Evion 400 1 tab ed

Zevit cap 1 morning, 1 night

Calcimax forte 1 m,1 n

Vitamin a 1 tab ed

Celine 500 1 m,1 n

Potassium citrate 1100 mg 1 tab ed

Tide 10 mg 1 tab once a week

Hcg 500 I.u once a week from week 5 to week 9

Hcg 500 iu ed week 10 and

Another 5 days ed 500 I.u

Letrozole 2.5 from week 10

In following manner...

Day1,2,5,7,10,12 from 1st day of 10th week

Ketotifen 1 mg ed from 3rd week.

T3 week 1 to week 8 2 tab daily

Week 9, 10 1 tab daily


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## SKSajid (Apr 2, 2015)

I'm 43 yrs old


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## SKSajid (Apr 2, 2015)

I don't know how this forum works pls somebody guide me as per my above queries


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## Dogbolt (Jun 23, 2009)

Why not try staring a new thread? You might get a better response.


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## SKSajid (Apr 2, 2015)

Thanx dear but I dunno how to do it will try now


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