# Dual Factor Training



## big

Dual Factor Training

-----------------------

Dual Factor training is extremely effective for intermediate/advanced trainees. Dual Factor is essentially about volume loading, then deloading, then intensity loading. The volume loading brings you to the brink of overtraining (over-reaching), the gains of which are seen with a deload and intensity phase. The intensity phase allows the lifter to increase the weight closer and closer to their maximum with lower volume. The rebound effect from the volume phase compounds the effects of a low volume, high intensity training routine during the intensity phase. Dual Factor training is not a specific training program, but rather a methodology of how to work out your training programs.

First of all, let's briefly explain some key elements of Dual Factor training:

Volume - the amount of work you're doing (typically the number of work sets).

Progressive Resistence - the idea of increasing the load over time (either by increased weight, increased reps, increased sets, decreased rest periods or a combination of these).

Periodisation - Changing up your training program (generally with respect to volume and intensity).

Loading - Using progressive resistence to (over a period of time) push yourself to your limits and beyond (i.e. to the brink of overtraining, but without actually overtraining).

Deloading - Backing off, enabling your body to recover.

Intensity - Traditionally speaking, this is purely a percentage of your 1RM. However, typically people refer to intensity as how close to failure you go.

Now let's talk about an example implementation of a Dual Factor routine. I generally go for moderate volume when loading, but keeping volume constant, while increasing the weight each week. I then go for low volume for the deload, and stick to the low volume while increasing the weight for the intensity phase.

An example might be to do this while loading for 4 weeks (any sets listed are work sets only - sufficient warm-ups should be done before this):

Mon-Squats 5x5, Rows 5x5

Wed-Bench 5x5, OHP 5x5

Fri-Squats 5x5, Chins 5x5

As you can see, the volume is moderate (10 sets per workout, 3 times a week) and the work is based purely around core lifts NOT done to failure (this enables us to squat twice a week in the volume phase). After 4 weeks of this, starting off light, increasing the weight each session, you will be at the brink of overtraining. That's the time to deload. We drop down to a lighter volume, keeping the weights the same as the 5x5, but drop down to 3 reps, and drop down to two sessions a week:

Mon-Squats 3x3, Rows 3x3

Thu-Bench 3x3, OHP 1x3, Chins 1x3

You then continue to increase the weights each week, giving you the intensity loading. Once you hit a wall on the intensity phase, you could test your maxes and then go back to the volume phase (or perhaps spend a week doing lighter assistance work if you need an additional deload). The rebound effect from the near-overtraining of the volume phase will multiply the gains you will get from the intensity phase.

So for example, taking the Monday squat session, you might do this:

Volume Phase:

Week 1 - 140kgx5x5 (this should feel fairly easy)

Week 2 - 145kgx5x5

Week 3 - 150kgx5x5 (this will be where your previous 5x5 max was - usually the same as your 8RM)

Week 4 - 155kgx5x5 (this will push you just past your previous best)

Deload:

Week 5 - 155kgx3x3 (keep the weight the same but reduce the overall load and frequency for a deload)

Intensity Phase:

Week 6 - 160kgx3x3

Week 7 - 165kgx3x3

Week 8 - 170kgx3x3

You might then test your maxes, and then start again with the 5x5 with (say) 145-150kg in your first week.

Pick your weights conservatively. It is better to start too light and have to add 10kg the first couple of weeks to your lifts, or to add an extra week or two into the loading phase than to start too heavy and end up hitting failure on the second or third week with nowhere to go. But ensure that by the end of the volume phase you are practically begging for the deload. If you aren't screaming for a deload and aren't close to (or at) failure by the 5th rep of the 5th set on the 4th week, add an extra week to the volume phase. Feel free to adjust the loading too. Some people like to start off quite heavy and load with smaller increments, whereas other people prefer to start lighter and load with heavier increments.

This is dual factor training (incorporating loading, deloading and periodisation). It will give you extremely good strength gains, and if you're eating enough, the mass gains will be huge too. However, it is intended for intermediate-advanced trainees who already have a good strength base. MOST more junior lifters (I class these as people who cannot yet deadlift twice their bodyweight) would be better off on a low volume single factor program which will allow them to increase the weight each week. Extremely advanced trainees should be doing a conjugated periodisation program (such as WSB), as the heavy weights they will be lifting are likely NOT to allow them to do that much volume without killing themselves on week 1 of the volume phase.


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## hackskii

Oh man, what a sweet post.

I thought you should put it in the training as a sticky.

Dude, I cant rep you again yet but if I could Id hit you a few times.

Great post almost one of the best I have ever seen.

Well it is the best training one I ever saw.

Man, this surely will get ripped off and travel the net

Its a good thing if it does.

*Question?*

Do you deload if you are still gaining?

The reason I ask this is I had a shoulder injury and had to baby it for 2 years.

I dropped bar bench and went to dumbells.

Had to go very light and work up very slowly by just adding a couple of reps a week.

Now after about 4-5 months I am still gaining each week but maybe just a rep or two but still gaining.

Should I delod before I get to the top?

Or should I just keep going (as I am still getting stronger) till I plateau?

And would just one week be enough for deload?

Or should I take that week off altogether?


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## big

hackskii said:


> Oh man, what a sweet post.
> 
> I thought you should put it in the training as a sticky.
> 
> Dude, I cant rep you again yet but if I could Id hit you a few times.
> 
> Great post almost one of the best I have ever seen.
> 
> Well it is the best training one I ever saw.
> 
> Man, this surely will get ripped off and travel the net
> 
> Its a good thing if it does.
> 
> *Question?*
> 
> Do you deload if you are still gaining?
> 
> The reason I ask this is I had a shoulder injury and had to baby it for 2 years.
> 
> I dropped bar bench and went to dumbells.
> 
> Had to go very light and work up very slowly by just adding a couple of reps a week.
> 
> Now after about 4-5 months I am still gaining each week but maybe just a rep or two but still gaining.
> 
> Should I delod before I get to the top?
> 
> Or should I just keep going (as I am still getting stronger) till I plateau?
> 
> And would just one week be enough for deload?
> 
> Or should I take that week off altogether?


Thanks dude.

If you're doing a single factor program, I would suggest not deloading until you stop gaining.

However, in this dual factor program, you have to let the majority of the lifts lead. So if you still feel you have some gaining in you on the overhead press (for instance), but your squat is at your maximum, you're best of deloading and then ramping up a bit faster on the overhead press while ramping up slower on the squats during the intensity phase.

For the deload, although it's written as a single week, you will probably find the first week or two of the intensity phase will allow you to deload some as well, as these will not be anywhere near your max yet, due to the reduced rep range.

Even if you're using a single factor program, you will probably just want to back off for the deload and ramp up again (which will effectively give you a couple of weeks or so of deloading).

For example, let's say you're doing a single factor program. You might do this:

Week 1 - 100kgx8

Week 2 - 105kgx8

Week 3 - 110kgx8

Week 4 - 115kgx7 (oops, we failed on the 8th rep, better deload)

Week 5 - 105kgx8

Week 6 - 110kgx8

Week 7 - 115kgx8

Week 8 - 120kgx8

As you can see, weeks 5 and 6 will probably be quite comfortable.


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## hackskii

I see that.

What if you stretched it out and didnt go to failure?

Like lest say do 16 weeks instead but with not as much intensity, would you end up higher than lets say two 8 week sessions?

I mean at some point you will be at a plateau somewhere right?


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## winger

Most impressive big! I paid $75.00 for a workout that wasn't even that well explained and very simular to it. That was 25 years ago and he was a world class power lifter but built like a bodybuilder.


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## big

hackskii said:


> I see that.
> 
> What if you stretched it out and didnt go to failure?
> 
> Like lest say do 16 weeks instead but with not as much intensity, would you end up higher than lets say two 8 week sessions?
> 
> I mean at some point you will be at a plateau somewhere right?


Generally it depends in many factors. For a newbie lifter with the right amount of protein in their diet and the right single factor training routine, they can generally gain strength each session for several months before plateauing. However, look at an advanced lifter, and they probably won't be able to do that, which is why they should generally turn to the dual factor program.

For a dual factor program, the gains come with the rebound from the loading phase and the ramping up of the intensity phase. Therefore we need to load up quite aggressively (as we don't want to spend too much time merely building up to our limits), and for most trainees, 4 weeks is about right to do this.

On a single factor program, most people find about 8 weeks before they hit a plateau if they've calculated their starting weights correctly. This gives about 4 weeks of ramping up to previous maxes and another 4 weeks of gaining (generally, if the ramping is done at 2.5kg/week, that's 10kg net gains per 8 week period).

There is no reason why, if using a single factor program, you couldn't load slower and aim to hit a plateau later. The slower you load, the longer you will be able to load for. That said, it isn't always desirable to load slowly, as you would be spending more weeks at sub-maximal weights.


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## hackskii

I got ya.

I gained so well as I guess had some deloading for 2 years recouperating from my injury.

So now the shoulder is better not 100% but probably 80% or more and now I keep gaining and gaining.

Even more interesting I went to dumbells as bar hurts even today so dumbells were never used for me.

Now that is almost all I use.

I had to start out with weight that guys were using for flys for reps.

I couldnt go to failure without pain so I just did reps and kindof just tickled the muscle to keep the tone while the shoulder healed.

Now I am doing 85lb dumbells (that is not alot) for 10 reps and tomorrow I will do 12 reps.

Started out 14 weeks ago with 35lb dumbells cuz of my shoulder.

Now I have personal bests every week and am still gaining 4 months later.

I can tell that tomorrow is chest day and I will have another personal best.

But I have to be carefull as one wrong move and I will be set back for months and ruin all my progress.

Inclines still give me problems big time so I just do reps but I have been getting my strength back there.

I can tell if I push it in inclines I will reinjure myself.

Sorry for the hyjack.

*If I am still getting stronger do you think I should deload now or keep going?*

I mean the shoulder is not 100% and maybe deloading might be a good idea.


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## big

hackskii said:


> *If I am still getting stronger do you think I should deload now or keep going?*


I would keep going. If you're gaining strength, you don't need to deload.

The injury complicates things a little, but I would recommend keeping things extremely strict, and if you feel any kind of pain, stop immediately.


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## crazycacti

not a bad post i suppose lol 

one question - how do you tie in these training cycles into your gear cycles? and if you finish and hit around the time of PCT with another volume phase how do you know where to start off again weight wise?


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## big

crazycacti said:


> not a bad post i suppose lol
> 
> one question - how do you tie in these training cycles into your gear cycles? and if you finish and hit around the time of PCT with another volume phase how do you know where to start off again weight wise?


Thanks dude 

If you wanted to cycle, I would ensure that you do NOT volume load during PCT. I would base your AAS cycles around your training program rather than the other way round.

In the case of this routine, I would start your cycle when you start the training program, and run the steroids for the course of the 8 week routine. Being on steroids, you might well be able to volume load a little longer and/or ramp up the intensity phase a little longer - but you can always ramp both up steeper (with bigger weight increases) rather than longer if you didn't want to stay on steroids for more than 8 weeks. Following the 8 weeks, I would suggest switching to a low volume routine during PCT and for the few weeks following. Keep intensity (in terms of percentage of your 1rm) fairly high, but volume and frequency relatively low. Once your PCT is over and you feel capable of loading again, you could go back to the volume loading (with or without steroids).


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## crazycacti

big said:


> Thanks dude
> 
> If you wanted to cycle, I would ensure that you do NOT volume load during PCT. I would base your AAS cycles around your training program rather than the other way round.
> 
> In the case of this routine, I would start your cycle when you start the training program, and run the steroids for the course of the 8 week routine. Being on steroids, you might well be able to volume load a little longer and/or ramp up the intensity phase a little longer - but you can always ramp both up steeper (with bigger weight increases) rather than longer if you didn't want to stay on steroids for more than 8 weeks. Following the 8 weeks, I would suggest switching to a low volume routine during PCT and for the few weeks following. Keep intensity (in terms of percentage of your 1rm) fairly high, but volume and frequency relatively low. Once your PCT is over and you feel capable of loading again, you could go back to the volume loading (with or without steroids).


thats what i was guessing bigman, infact its what i have planned atm - without knowing too much about this dual factor training lark apart from a little research (part of which was given to me by you.... http://www.higher-faster-sports.com/PlannedOvertraining.html) i was planning on lowering the reps and sets when PCT commences but with the same weight - keeping intensity high trying to keep plenty of the gains ... PCT commences 12/13th feb


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## big

crazycacti said:


> thats what i was guessing bigman, infact its what i have planned atm - without knowing too much about this dual factor training lark apart from a little research (part of which was given to me by you.... http://www.higher-faster-sports.com/PlannedOvertraining.html) i was planning on lowering the reps and sets when PCT commences but with the same weight - keeping intensity high trying to keep plenty of the gains ... PCT commences 12/13th feb


Sounds like you've got it sussed dude 

Your deload during PCT is a good idea. Also, you can in effect still achieve progressive overload during PCT by keeping the weight constant throughout it. Since you get weaker during PCT, by deloading when you start PCT and then keeping the weights constant throughout PCT, you are in effect overloading during PCT with the set weight.


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## crazycacti

big said:


> Sounds like you've got it sussed dude
> 
> Your deload during PCT is a good idea. Also, you can in effect still achieve progressive overload during PCT by keeping the weight constant throughout it. Since you get weaker during PCT, by deloading when you start PCT and then keeping the weights constant throughout PCT, you are in effect overloading during PCT with the set weight.


ahhh never saw it like that but as i read it, it all makes sense of course


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## winger

I just got a chubby. Really nice read.


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## Ironman

Brilliant post!


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## Aftershock

mg: I had no idea you were so knowledable dude.... 

Just kidding... that was a fantastic post,


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## DB

damn.... as much as i wanna cuss u that was a good post princess... i'll send u something nice to show my appriciation


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## winger

DB said:


> damn.... as much as i wanna cuss u that was a good post princess... i'll send u something nice to show my appriciation


His Christmas card back?


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## BIG-UNC

exellent post!!!!!!!


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## andyparry123

Great read mate will be trying this method as I have no been seeing any gains in strength of late.


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## winger

andyparry123 said:


> Great read mate will be trying this method as I have no been seeing any gains in strength of late.


I like the way you think. Change does a body good!

Well, except sex changes...........lol.


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## big

winger said:


> I like the way you think. Change does a body good!
> 
> Well, except sex changes...........lol.


LOL! I dunno, sometimes even that can be good


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## winger

big said:


> LOL! I dunno, sometimes even that can be good


I'll just take your word on that.


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## Guest

Do you guys stick to the low rep range????


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## hackskii

mb250 said:


> Do you guys stick to the low rep range????


No, I do higher reps, I have too many injuries to do singles or even triples.


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## crazycal1

thats the umpteenth time ive read that-

quality!

single factor/dual factor-

should be on every tub of protein ever sold.


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## big

mb250 said:


> Do you guys stick to the low rep range????


Typically, unless you have a specific reason why you shouldn't be lifting heavy, sticking within the 3-5 rep range is extremely good for both strength and size for all athletes (strongmen, powerlifters, bodybuilders). There are some exceptions of course.


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## winger

Nice post Big.

Can we see a pic of how well your doing on the Dual Factor?......I tried....


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## hackskii

big said:


> Typically, unless you have a specific reason why you shouldn't be lifting heavy, sticking within the 3-5 rep range is extremely good for both strength and size for all athletes (strongmen, powerlifters, bodybuilders). There are some exceptions of course.


Injuries come to mind


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## crazycacti

winger said:


> Nice post Big.
> 
> Can we see a pic of how well your doing on the Dual Factor?......I tried....


the elusive picture of big.... is it time??? :rolleye11


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## winger

crazycacti said:


> the elusive picture of big.... is it time??? :rolleye11


It's been time for a few years now. Big you dont have to show the mug, I understand.........


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## hackskii

I bet Big is modest.

Im sure he looks better on real life than he gives himself credit for.

When you get my age any good body of any age looks good (girls you ****)...


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## Guest

You never cycle the rep ranges???

I agree, injuries will prevent, but also occur if used repetitively at low reps. After all, its volume thats causes size growth - slightly different to training for strength gains. I know they're kind of hand in hand but i'd rather be growing than getting stronger.

I cycle similar, but i'll only spend a couple of weeks down at 3-5 reps, then back to 10-12 and build my way down (or up??) again.

Nice post

mb


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## winger

mb250 said:


> After all, its volume thats causes size growth


I dont really agree mate.


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## hackskii

winger said:


> I dont really agree mate.


Me neither, some of the biggest guys in the gym are by far the strongest.

Hmmmmmm

Or, some of the strongest guys in my gyms are the biggest.

Hmmmm


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## big

mb250 said:


> You never cycle the rep ranges???
> 
> I agree, injuries will prevent, but also occur if used repetitively at low reps. After all, its volume thats causes size growth - slightly different to training for strength gains. I know they're kind of hand in hand but i'd rather be growing than getting stronger.
> 
> I cycle similar, but i'll only spend a couple of weeks down at 3-5 reps, then back to 10-12 and build my way down (or up??) again.
> 
> Nice post
> 
> mb


No, I wouldn't suggest cycling rep ranges particularly.

If you want to work in 3-5 reps and 10-12 reps, do them at the same time, within the same training cycle.

Louie Simmons has pointed out many times, that cycling rep ranges TENDS to cause a loss of strength within that rep range when you cycle it out of your training. He has seen this in literally hundreds of lifters and really knows his stuff here.

You may well rather be growing than getting stronger, but in order to grow, you will need to get stronger, bottom line.

Yes, the training I suggest uses low reps regularly (almost exclusively actually unless there's a specific reason why not) - but remember that MOST of the time you are using sub-maximal weights. IMO you are FAR less likely to get injured doing many sets of 80% of your max for triples with perfect form than you are trying to do one all-out higher-rep set to (or beyond) failure, knowing that your form is highly likely to be slipping on the last rep or two.

As for volume causing size gains - yes and no. The "size" most people see from volume training is often just a pump. I will concur that volume is important for optimal size gains... but you will see hundreds of guys in every gym in every country doing volume training and not getting any bigger. Why?... because they're not using progressive resistance and they're not feeding their bodies correctly. The guys who are adding weight to the bar each week, regardless of their training routine, are the guys who are getting both bigger and stronger. A nice way to do this (with the progressive resistance built in) IMO is a dual factor approach.


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## hackskii

Oh Bigness, you said a moutfull there.

I see many guys doing volume work and never grow.

I think they do it cuz they see others doing it.

One thing I do see in the gym is guys are afraid to load the bar up with weight, its like they lack Confediance.

My training partner is pretty new to the game and when I stand over him or others and tell them to do another they get maybe like 3 more reps than their max.

Just me standing over them with the confidence they have in the security that I will take the bar from them really motivates them to do another rep or more.

I dont know how many times I tell the guys to stop counting (within their breaths) and get a better footing to drive from how much this helps.

For some reason there are limiting factors involved and they almost always can be seen in the greener dudes in the gym.

Guess that is ok really as it takes time to get the mind and muscle connection going on.

Maybe it is a protection thing.

Great post Big, as usual.

I dont think there are many that have the insight as you on lifting.

I know I don't.

You are the first person I think of when I have problems in a routine.

For that......Cheers mate!!!!!!!!!

Your awesome..


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## winger

Well Princess has done it again. 

Nice read Big!


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## big

hackskii said:


> I see many guys doing volume work and never grow.
> 
> I think they do it cuz they see others doing it.


Totally. There are three variables you can play with here:

* Volume

* Intensity

* Frequency

Most people can pick two of these, and have to keep the other in check. For instance, if you have a volume routine fairly frequently, you'd better back right off the intensity. If you have an intense routine with some volume, you'd better be doing it very infrequently... etc etc.

The problem comes when you get guys in the gym who want to try doing all three. This is what halts progress VERY quickly unless you are very genetically gifted. They want to do 20 sets each workout, 4 times a week, going to/beyond failure every set... most people just cannot do this and expect to progress.


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## hackskii

big said:


> Totally. There are three variables you can play with here:
> 
> * Volume
> 
> * Intensity
> 
> * Frequency
> 
> Most people can pick two of these, and have to keep the other in check. For instance, if you have a volume routine fairly frequently, you'd better back right off the intensity. If you have an intense routine with some volume, you'd better be doing it very infrequently... etc etc.
> 
> The problem comes when you get guys in the gym who want to try doing all three. This is what halts progress VERY quickly unless you are very genetically gifted. They want to do 20 sets each workout, 4 times a week, going to/beyond failure every set... most people just cannot do this and expect to progress.


Most of them think more is better.

Stuart suggest less is better.


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## Guest

But surely as already pointed out somewhere on here, getting stronger isnt always a result of size increase of a muscle. More often than not its a nervous improvement, with size of inter-fibres increasing. Training purely for size, and therfore increasing the volume, encourages growth of whole fibres.

Simple - bodies react to stress. Make it lift heavy weights and it will get better at lifting heavy weights by increasing neuro pathways and sycronisation systems, in addition to stronger myosin and actin reactions. Make it need to hold more glycogen by exhausting muscles and the whole fibre needs to grow, the whole basis of hypertrophy training. Taking this further drop set, supersets etc work on this whole assumption of taking the volume above and beyond what the muscle can do.

Yeah sure you'll grow in the low reps, thats pretty obvious. To the same extent as 5-8 reps im unsure of - assuming all other variables remain constant.

And hyperplasia - has anyone got any proof it exists within human tissue? You might be within a very small number of people if it definitely does. The only real change i know of is type IIA fibres moving either towards either type I or type II B, which any form of high intensity training with reps below 12 will encourage.

I think the system is great - it works. Just believe perhaps rotating reps could benefit some people?

mb


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## hackskii

I think IGF-1 and HGH promote hyperplasia.

You are right, there is no evedence to support this in the natural athlete.

70% of your 1 rep max will work 90% of your muscle fibers slow and fast twitch.


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## big

mb250 said:


> But surely as already pointed out somewhere on here, getting stronger isnt always a result of size increase of a muscle. More often than not its a nervous improvement, with size of inter-fibres increasing. Training purely for size, and therfore increasing the volume, encourages growth of whole fibres.
> 
> Simple - bodies react to stress. Make it lift heavy weights and it will get better at lifting heavy weights by increasing neuro pathways and sycronisation systems, in addition to stronger myosin and actin reactions. Make it need to hold more glycogen by exhausting muscles and the whole fibre needs to grow, the whole basis of hypertrophy training. Taking this further drop set, supersets etc work on this whole assumption of taking the volume above and beyond what the muscle can do.
> 
> Yeah sure you'll grow in the low reps, thats pretty obvious. To the same extent as 5-8 reps im unsure of - assuming all other variables remain constant.
> 
> And hyperplasia - has anyone got any proof it exists within human tissue? You might be within a very small number of people if it definitely does. The only real change i know of is type IIA fibres moving either towards either type I or type II B, which any form of high intensity training with reps below 12 will encourage.
> 
> I think the system is great - it works. Just believe perhaps rotating reps could benefit some people?
> 
> mb


If you are happy working in the 5-8, 8-12 or 12-20 rep range, and you are progressing and happy with progress, stay within that rep range by all means.

I have never said that getting stronger is a result of getting bigger, but rather the other way round... to get bigger, you need to get stronger.


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## crazycacti

here's another question...

if you use the 5x5 principle during the loading phase - would these all be working sets with the same weight or would the 5 include warm ups and weight acclimatisation sets with 1 working set at the end?


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## big

crazycacti said:


> here's another question...
> 
> if you use the 5x5 principle during the loading phase - would these all be working sets with the same weight or would the 5 include warm ups and weight acclimatisation sets with 1 working set at the end?


The 5x5 would be done with a set weight AFTER warm-ups in a cumulative fatigue manner. None of the sets will be to failure, and in your first week, you would probably be using something around a 10 rep max (if you were doing a single set) for a 5x5.

The idea is to overload with volume and bring yourself to the brink of overtraining. You can't do this with a single sub-maximal set.

The phased approach works as follows:

* Loading with volume

* Deloading

* Loading with intensity

The rebound effect you get from loading up with volume and then deloading (lots of guys in the gym who take a week off and then come back stronger are actually experiencing the rebound from over-reaching) is compounded by the effects of the intensity phase.

We look to do a LOT more volume than we can handle in the volume loading phase. A 5x5 would typically be done with somewhere between 70% (starting) and 80-85% (week 4) of your 1RM (obviously some people are better reppers than others, so the actual percentages will vary - a 100kg squatter will probably use a higher percentage of his max than a 300kg squatter).

So in the final week you are doing 50 reps in total (2 lots of 5x5) with 80-85% or so of your max for the squat workout alone. So if your max squat is 200kg, that's 8500kg being moved with that lift in a single week. The rebound from moving that sort of volume range for 3-4 weeks and then deloading gives some serious gains once you move into the intensity phase, particularly if you are eating correctly.

A prime example of this kind of loading and deloading is the smolov squat routine. The smolov routine is an eastern european dual factor routine renowned for putting 50-100lbs on people's squats within 3 months... if you can handle it


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## winger

big said:


> smolov squat routine. The smolov routine is an eastern european dual factor routine renowned for putting 50-100lbs on people's squats within 3 months... if you can handle it


Click here.


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## hackskii

winger said:


> Click here.


Damn,

Bumping that.


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## Magic Torch

Big,

What happens if you fail in one compound say I bench 4x5 and 1x3, but my other lifts are still on the up?

Do I deload for just that compound, or stay on the same weight until the other compounds fail too? and do 3x3 on everything?

Cheers - the routine is going well BTW 

Jamie


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## crazycacti

personally i do the following...

if its bench i am concentrating on i will go to 3x3 (and 2x per week) for everything and load everything else up that little bit quicker...

however if its say squats i'm concentrating on - i would then drop only the bench to 3x3 and keep the weight stable untill i need to drop my squat down to 3x3


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## big

Magic Torch said:


> Big,
> 
> What happens if you fail in one compound say I bench 4x5 and 1x3, but my other lifts are still on the up?
> 
> Do I deload for just that compound, or stay on the same weight until the other compounds fail too? and do 3x3 on everything?
> 
> Cheers - the routine is going well BTW
> 
> Jamie


It's your call. You need to let the goals of your program dictate that.

In your case, if your goal is to increase your bench, deload everything around your bench. If however you are going for overall size/strength, it's not worth deloading everything just because one lift is trailing off. The idea of a deload is to back off when you are just on the brink of full overtraining to allow you to recover and grow, and one or two bad sessions on one single lift probably isn't indicative of that.

Assuming everything else is going well, I would shoot for the same 5x5 with bench next session and see how you get on, while increasing everything else. It might have just been a bad session.

Cap is deloading each lift as appropriate and it's working well for him. In the past when I have run this routine, I have always deloaded everything together and it's worked well for me. But you need some trial and error the first time round to estimate when your lifts will start to trail off. No sense in deloading if you're still getting stronger.

Just bear in mind that next training cycle you probably need to start off your bench a bit lighter percentage-wise in order to try to match up your lifts as best as possible.


----------



## winger

big said:


> Just bear in mind that next training cycle you probably need to start off your bench a bit lighter percentage-wise in order to try to match up your lifts as best as possible.


Nice!


----------



## Magic Torch

big said:


> It's your call. You need to let the goals of your program dictate that.
> 
> In your case, if your goal is to increase your bench, deload everything around your bench. If however you are going for overall size/strength, it's not worth deloading everything just because one lift is trailing off. The idea of a deload is to back off when you are just on the brink of full overtraining to allow you to recover and grow, and one or two bad sessions on one single lift probably isn't indicative of that.
> 
> Assuming everything else is going well, I would shoot for the same 5x5 with bench next session and see how you get on, while increasing everything else. It might have just been a bad session.
> 
> Cap is deloading each lift as appropriate and it's working well for him. In the past when I have run this routine, I have always deloaded everything together and it's worked well for me. But you need some trial and error the first time round to estimate when your lifts will start to trail off. No sense in deloading if you're still getting stronger.
> 
> Just bear in mind that next training cycle you probably need to start off your bench a bit lighter percentage-wise in order to try to match up your lifts as best as possible.


Cool thanks, I think I will go with the same 5x5 next session next time and fail together and then deload.

Although I am focused on chest (as I do this 2x a week like Crazycati), so maybe next time I'll try that.

I started my Sust and Deca cycle this week too so maybe my failure may go a couple of weeks longer too.....

Crazycati how are you finding your routine? Are your lifts going well?

Thanks guys


----------



## Magic Torch

big said:


> It's your call. You need to let the goals of your program dictate that.
> 
> In your case, if your goal is to increase your bench, deload everything around your bench. If however you are going for overall size/strength, it's not worth deloading everything just because one lift is trailing off. The idea of a deload is to back off when you are just on the brink of full overtraining to allow you to recover and grow, and one or two bad sessions on one single lift probably isn't indicative of that.
> 
> Assuming everything else is going well, I would shoot for the same 5x5 with bench next session and see how you get on, while increasing everything else. It might have just been a bad session.
> 
> Cap is deloading each lift as appropriate and it's working well for him. In the past when I have run this routine, I have always deloaded everything together and it's worked well for me. But you need some trial and error the first time round to estimate when your lifts will start to trail off. No sense in deloading if you're still getting stronger.
> 
> Just bear in mind that next training cycle you probably need to start off your bench a bit lighter percentage-wise in order to try to match up your lifts as best as possible.


Cool thanks, I think I will go with the same 5x5 next session next time and fail together and then deload.

Although I am focused on chest (as I do this 2x a week like Crazycati), so maybe next time I'll try that.

I started my Sust and Deca cycle this week too so maybe my failure may go a couple of weeks longer too.....

Crazycati how are you finding your routine? Are your lifts going well?

Thanks guys


----------



## crazycacti

4 weeks of PCT gone... (it was a harder recovery than normal for some reason too - possibly the tren me thinks...)

and my strength is still holding ... my weight is going down slowly (240lbs atm), but so is my waist too... happy days!!!

My squat is starting to fail though... always my weak point  cest la vie

I'm actually enjoying training more whilst off atm


----------



## Magic Torch

crazycacti said:


> 4 weeks of PCT gone... (it was a harder recovery than normal for some reason too - possibly the tren me thinks...)
> 
> and my strength is still holding ... my weight is going down slowly (240lbs atm), but so is my waist too... happy days!!!
> 
> My squat is starting to fail though... always my weak point  cest la vie
> 
> I'm actually enjoying training more whilst off atm


How about throwin some partials in there once you stall and make your routine Tri Factor training 

I know what you mean tho, before I started my cycle I was enjoying my gym time more too, I think its the big compounds that do it - cause you KNOW you have trained the day after!

Keep it up mate

I'm keeping a log of this one now and i'll post my results in 8 weeks!


----------



## crazycacti

look forward to see the results!

I gained a lot of strength this last cycle - about 20kg on my bench/10kg on to the squat/10kg Deadlift/20kg Military Press...

i'm taking it easy this next two weeks and not going near failure... it feels soooo good for a change, no doms, no feeling drained after doing bench and deads on the same day ect....


----------



## Magic Torch

20kg on military press and bench is very good going mate, well done 

Enjoy the next two weeks, you know its back to the grind stone after!


----------



## winger

Nice gains Crazy.


----------



## crazycacti

winger said:


> Nice gains Crazy.


cheers bigman


----------



## hackskii

crazycacti said:


> 4 weeks of PCT gone... (it was a harder recovery than normal for some reason too - possibly the tren me thinks...)


Bingo, hit the nail on the head with that thought.


----------



## crazycacti

hackskii said:


> Bingo, hit the nail on the head with that thought.


aye, to be fair i'm not sure if the gains outweigh the recovery issues for me... there was a lot of atrophy (if you know what i mean) and i was still banging in the HCG... i was doing 500iu 3xEW throughout and to finish with i did 1000iu ED for 5 days but this did not really make too much difference really - i just had to wait for my body to stabilize - it has done now though and i haven't lost too much strength either, so it can't be all bad

i have never felt so 'different' at the start of this PCT - libido at a low and really moody... fine now though 

I'll try NPP next time in the same way i used tren...


----------



## hackskii

Well, it is no secret that tren is hard on shutdown.

Some guys love that gear.

I will never use it myself, I suffer from high blood pressure on cycle so this one for me is a deffinet no no.

But I hear it has some progesteronic effects and maybe this is the sides of things.

Usually DHT opposes progesterone, so something like masteron during or even winstrol might not be a bad idea.

Just a thought.


----------



## DB

crazycacti said:


> 4 weeks of PCT gone... (it was a harder recovery than normal for some reason too - possibly the tren me thinks...)
> 
> and my strength is still holding ... my weight is going down slowly (240lbs atm), but so is my waist too... happy days!!!
> 
> My squat is starting to fail though... always my weak point  cest la vie
> 
> I'm actually enjoying training more whilst off atm


What was the cycle dude?


----------



## winger

Damn DB has a sexy ass............lol

Hey Crazy, did you get the tren cough?

You young guys bounce back quick.

I feel if you had that much shutdown then you must have made some serious gains.  There are no peaks without valleys.

I really feel if you can master a pct then you are one up on the game.


----------



## crazycacti

DB... it was:

1-10 Test E - 600mg EW ( i frontloaded the first 2 weeks with 900mg)

1-4 Dbol - 50mg ED

1-6 Tren A - 100mg EOD

11-13 Tbol 70mg ED

11-13 Prop 100mg EOD

13 weeks was perhaps a little too long, but i didn't really want to come off and have PCT over xmas to be honest...

No tren cough, not even a tickle 

Gains were good, i have a few new stretch marks near the bicep/front delt tie in to prove it too 

I was thinking of running the same but withh NPP and var next time...

Hackskii - i think if i run it again masteron sounds like a good idea - i doubt i'll like winstrol with my joints though, but if i run NPP it sounds good


----------



## hackskii

crazycacti said:


> DB... it was:
> 
> 1-10 Test E - 600mg EW ( i frontloaded the first 2 weeks with 900mg)
> 
> 1-4 Dbol - 50mg ED
> 
> 1-6 Tren A - 100mg EOD
> 
> 11-13 Tbol 70mg ED
> 
> 11-13 Prop 100mg EOD
> 
> 13 weeks was perhaps a little too long, but i didn't really want to come off and have PCT over xmas to be honest...
> 
> No tren cough, not even a tickle
> 
> Gains were good, i have a few new stretch marks near the bicep/front delt tie in to prove it too
> 
> I was thinking of running the same but withh NPP and var next time...
> 
> Hackskii - i think if i run it again masteron sounds like a good idea - i doubt i'll like winstrol with my joints though, but if i run NPP it sounds good


Um, I dont think it would be that wise of a decision to run deca and tren at the same time.

I mean it looks good on paper one being very androgenic and the other anabolic but both can have progesteronic side effects, and both are known to be very supressive on the HPTA.

I mean it might be fine but this is my thinking.

But DHT opposes estrogen and progesterone.


----------



## crazycacti

hackskii said:


> Um, I dont think it would be that wise of a decision to run deca and tren at the same time.
> 
> I mean it looks good on paper one being very androgenic and the other anabolic but both can have progesteronic side effects, and both are known to be very supressive on the HPTA.
> 
> I mean it might be fine but this is my thinking.
> 
> But DHT opposes estrogen and progesterone.


i didn't mean to write it as the tren and NPP together Hackskii, sorry...

nah i'd run only one tor the other...


----------



## hackskii

I was just throwing my thoughts out there and am waiting for someone to chime in.


----------



## darkstar

That is one sweet read.

It sux but i know i wasted alot of time simply overtraing.


----------



## winger

darkstar said:


> That is one sweet read.
> 
> It sux but i know i wasted alot of time simply overtraing.


I hear ya. I have been training 31 years and most of that was probably overtraining. 

I got it down now.....lol


----------



## rayvonn

Many thanks for making a daunting subject understandable, I have not understood this before but your article makes it much easier to digest.

many thanks again

ash


----------



## bogman

Big et al,

After approx 9 weeks, I've just finished a Dual Factor cycle and made some good gains - have been very happy with it - thanks for the advice.

I stuck to Big's example programme - except substituted Deadlifts for the Squats (so Deadlift, Rows, Bench, OHP & Chins).

I'm just curious what you guys would advise now? I did one of those slow routines (ie one set only of 4 sec up, 2 sec hold, 4 sec up) before this, but didn't see as much gains.

I'm pretty tempted to do another Dual Factor cycle? Should I stick with the same excercises? I'm tempted to do squats instead of deadlifts, although I made good progress on the deadlift, so am keen to see if I could push that further?

One final question - I don't use anything more than whey & creatine - I assume I should try and use the creatine for 2 or 3 weeks as both the volume & intensity phases are getting to the end (and getting hard)?

Any thoughts or advice would be appreciated?

Thanks


----------



## big

bogman said:


> Big et al,
> 
> After approx 9 weeks, I've just finished a Dual Factor cycle and made some good gains - have been very happy with it - thanks for the advice.
> 
> I stuck to Big's example programme - except substituted Deadlifts for the Squats (so Deadlift, Rows, Bench, OHP & Chins).
> 
> I'm just curious what you guys would advise now? I did one of those slow routines (ie one set only of 4 sec up, 2 sec hold, 4 sec up) before this, but didn't see as much gains.
> 
> I'm pretty tempted to do another Dual Factor cycle? Should I stick with the same excercises? I'm tempted to do squats instead of deadlifts, although I made good progress on the deadlift, so am keen to see if I could push that further?
> 
> One final question - I don't use anything more than whey & creatine - I assume I should try and use the creatine for 2 or 3 weeks as both the volume & intensity phases are getting to the end (and getting hard)?
> 
> Any thoughts or advice would be appreciated?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Donal


Hey dude, glad it worked well for you. I would suggest doing the same again and seeing what happens. When you find something that works for you, keep doing it until it stops working  Once you've milked all the gains you can - that's when it's time to change things up.

As for creatine, by all means add some in throughout and see what happens. It is a fairly useful supplement, especially if you don't eat much red meat.


----------



## bogman

Big

Thanks for the quick reply - I will repeat the same routine again! Thanks for the advice.

Bogman


----------



## bogman

Big & All,

I've just completed my second cycle. It took 9 weeks - 5 weeks on volume and 4 weeks on intensity. I made gains over the first cycle:

Deadlift - 175kg to 190kg

Bench Press - 85.5kg to 90kg

I also made similiar gains on the OHP, Row & Chins.

(I know these don't break any records, but I'm natural and when I started out I was at fractions of these weights!). I am actually quite enjoying this routine - as it changes regularly there's no boredom factor. Also, I seem to be able to put a lot more focus and determination into 3 or 5 reps than I've done on 8 or 12 reps. (Having said that, as I've posted elsewhere, I'm not sure I'm getting the mass gains to accompany the strength gains).

So, I would appreciate your opinions/advice:

- do these gains seem reasonable for my second cycle? (I've been doing weights for 3 years - and before this I had really struggled to keep gaining on my lifts).

- From my post after the first cycle, I presume I should do keep on this dual factor cycle until the gains stop coming?

- My Bench Press was my lowest overall gain (~5% gain) - should I substitute something else - eg weighted dips?

Lastly, after a lot of soul searching and reading, I'm considering doing some AAS. I'm not keen on doing any serious doses, or injecting. So, I was considering 5 or 10mg a day DBol? Any thoughts on this? I recently read Saumuri69's 14 x 14 DBol thread with great interest (took me days to read it all!!). I was thinking that maybe if I tried to time it so that my 14 days "on" are the last two weeks of the volume and intensity phases? Any thoughts on this?

My goals are probably a bit different to some on here - I probably woudn't be classed as BB'er and am not out to make huge weight gains. If I could gain another ~10kg or so, and still keep my reasonably good level of cardio fitness, I'd be very happy. And I'm not looking to gain that 10kg rapidly - happy to give it a year or two if necessary.

Thanks for all the advice to date.


----------



## big

Those are impressive gains in 9 weeks. Many (most?) people don't add 15kg to their deadlift in a year, much less in 9 weeks.

Even a 5kg gain on your bench is fine. Given that you did a 9 week routine, theoretically you could squeeze 5-6 of those in a year, adding 25-30kg to your bench. Even if you only managed half of that (15kg or so), that's more than most people who have been training a few years put on their bench in a given year.

So it sounds like you did everything right. Keep going while you are still getting gains - and then switch the exercise out when you get small (less than 2.5kg) or no gains within the 8-9 weeks.

My personal opinion is that a low dose dbol cycle is pointless. Either do a proper cycle, or stay natural. Just IMO - no reason why you shouldn't try it for yourself and make up your own mind. But I would say keep it natural or do a proper cycle (250mg test en every 4-5 days or so for 10 weeks).


----------



## bogman

Big

Thanks - really appreciate the encouragement and advice. I think I will still give DBol a try (not least because I've now sourced some!). I'm also reading up on my diet again - while its very clean/healthy, I'm going to try upping the protein again.

Thanks, Bogman


----------



## big

Good man - upping the protein will help massively.

Let us know how you get on... good luck


----------



## bogman

Big & All

Wanted to give an update and hopefully get some advice also? I've just finished the volume phase of my third Dual Factor Training cycle and about to start the Intensity phase. As I've posted elsewhere, after a lot of consideration, I've decided to use AAS - but very cautiously.

I'm using 5mg DBol a day - just finished second week (I was one week into the Volume phase when I started - tabs arrived late!). I appreciate this is very low, but I wanted to see how my body reacted and also, I'm really just looking for a moderate aid to gaining and am keen to avoid any risks and side effects (I'm taking Milk Thistle & Liv.52 also).

There are a few other things a bit different about this Dual Factor cycle too:

- My volume phase has ended up being only 3 weeks (previously 5 and 4 weeks respectively) as I think I started the weights a bit too high and increased a bit too quickly as I thought there may be more impact from the DBol.

- My sleep probably hasn't been as good as usual - bit stressed at work recently - and I think the one mild side I may have from the DBol is being a bit restless at night.

- I have been eating more protein ~ 275kg and have a clean diet (there is a seperate thread on alcohol - I have had 2 or 3 units of alcohol once a week - which I recognise is not ideal!)

However, my gains compared to the last volume phase have been smaller (5kg on Deadlift, 2kg on Bench) - I know the gains are probably going to diminish each Dual Factor cycle - but I thought I'd get a bit more of a boost from the DBol? But, I have gained weight - 4lb in 2 weeks, while my waist has stayed the same (I'm using this as an indication of bf level).

So - I had a few things I was hoping for advice on:

- Should I increase the DBol to 10mg? (I don't really want to go any higher than that - from what I've read you can make reasonable gains on low-doses). My goals are relatively modest - as long as I can gain 4 or 5lb muscle after the cycle (and after I've lost the water etc..), I'd be very happy. Incidentally my longer term goals are to gain about another 20lb (over 1 to 2 years) and after that maintain that level.

- I know its hard to give an exact answer, but if my BF is staying at roughly the same level and I've put on 4lb so far, presumably I'm eating about the right amount?

Any other advice or thoughts would be appreciated. I know a lot of people are going to say I'm wasting my time and should go straight on 50mg DBol - but I've read Samurai69's training log and others' comments, and it seems quite possible to gain on lower doses. I'd be reluctant to go above 15 or 20 mg - even on future cycles.

Thanks,

Bogman


----------



## hackskii

ARe you considering taking the d-bol every day?

Or only on training days?


----------



## bogman

I'm taking it every day - 5mg each day.


----------



## hackskii

bogman said:


> I'm taking it every day - 5mg each day.


I doubt you will seee much of anything from that.


----------



## bogman

:lol:

So - you'd suggest 10mg then, or more? Thanks.


----------



## big

I honestly am not a fan of messing about with 5-10mg doses of dbol... being able to lift significantly more on that can only be a placebo effect IMO.

If you're going to run a cycle... run a cycle 

Just IMO


----------



## Guest

i would agree either run a cycle or dont.... dont do it half hearted


----------



## bogman

Thanks for the replies. So would you consider a 10mg ED cycle of DBol a waste? Others (including Hacksii, I think?) have said they've previously made good gains on 10mg ED.


----------



## winger

bogman said:


> I have gained weight - 4lb in 2 weeks, while my waist has stayed the same (I'm using this as an indication of bf level).
> 
> So - I had a few things I was hoping for advice on:
> 
> - Should I increase the DBol to 10mg?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Bogman


Well if you put on 4 lbs in 2 weeks why change anything? You can always use more. I say, if it ain't broke don't fix it.


----------



## hackskii

big said:


> I honestly am not a fan of messing about with 5-10mg doses of dbol... being able to lift significantly more on that can only be a placebo effect IMO.
> 
> If you're going to run a cycle... run a cycle
> 
> Just IMO


Cant rep you for this but hell yah on this one...................... :thumb:


----------



## bogman

Just a quick update - I increased to 10mg DBol a day after the above exchanges. So have now done 2 weeks @ 5mg and 2 1/2 weeks @ 10mg.

I'm into my third week of the intensity phase of my dual factor cycle. I'm going to end the cycle when I hit my maxes - which will either be 1 1/2 weeks or 2 1/2 weeks time (I normally aim for 4 weeks as Big suggests, but there's a chance I may not have been ambitious enough with my weeksly increments).

I've really upped my food intake - to 350 to 400g protein a day also. I'm now up about 11 or 12lb from the start of the cycle. Obviously some of that is water and I think I'm starting to put on a bit of bf (waist increased by 1/2 inch), but overall I'm very pleased with the progress.

Once I have finished the cycle, I'll stop hijacking this thread and do a proper post with the details of the cycle and my results. I know most people are in favour of much bigger DBol doses - but like Samurai69's low DBol cycles a couple of years ago, I think it may be worth considering for people who aren't sure about AAS and who probably just want to make moderate gains rather big gains so they can eventually compete or get really big?


----------



## hackskii

10mg is not alot.

Also, it would be better to start your own thread.......


----------



## bogman

Big & All

As per my other post, I've just finished another Dual Factor Cycle. I've also done DBol (first time on AAS) for the last seven weeks.

I made good gains - the DBol obviously helped (Deadlift 190kg -> 210kg, Bench 90kg -> 99kg), but have been doing Dual Factor Training for 6 months now, so am keen to try to vary things a bit - to keep it interesting and also to stop my body from adapting to the current routine.

The whole approach to training does seem to suit me very well - from experience, I think I would be constantly overtrained if I tried the some of the 4 (or more) day routines with constant intensity that some on here use successfully. So, it seems wise not to change things too much?

Because, of this, I was wondering if you think it would still work if I changed the rep ranges a bit but stuck with the same basic structure - for example:

Volume Phase - 3 x 8 (instead of 5 x 5)

Intensity Phase - 2 x 5 (instead of 3 x 3)

From what I've read, the higher rep ranges should also help hyperthrophy a bit more? Do you think this would still work?

I'm also thinking about changing the excerises a bit - still sticking with big compounds, but just varying them a bit (eg squat instead of deadlifts and maybe dip or db press rather than bench press etc..). But I want to research this and think about it a bit more.


----------



## big

Hey dude

Honestly, I would stick with exactly what you're doing. 20kg on your deadlift and 9kg on your bench in the space of an 8 (or so) week training cycle is incredibly impressive. Many (most?) people don't get those kind of gains over a year when at the 200kg deadlift level.

My suggestions are nearly always low volume progressive resistance for beginners, dual factor for intermediates, WSB principles for advanced trainees, and elite athletes should go see Louie Simmons or Seb Burns and let them tell you what your weak points are. Given that you're clearly intermediate, you should certainly still be using dual factor principles.

Your 3x8 will probably work, but you will be working outside of Prilepin's table, which isn't optimal.

As an example, lets say your max on an exercise is 100kg. Using 5x5 you will probably be around the 75-80kg range. Using 3x8, you'll probably be around the 65-70kg range...

So lets say you load with 75kg on 5x5. The total volume is 1875kg (75x5x5) and the intensity is 75% of your max. Now lets say you load with 65kg on 3x8. The total volume is only 1560kg (65x3x8) and the intensity is 65% of your max. Suddenly you've just reduced both your volume and your intensity... and therefore the stimulus is reduced.

The beauty of loading with a 5x5 scheme is that you're spending most of your time working around 70-80% of your max. This is ideal for intermediates IMO, as you'll be getting sufficient volume, intensity and load without working at a percentage of your max which is likely to result in injury.

My honest opinion is stick with what you're doing, as its working. If you really want, and you think you can handle the extra volume, add a 2x8-10 to the end of the workout for hypertrophy, but keep away from failure.

i.e:

Bench 5x5

OHP 5x5

Dips 2-3x8-10 (not to failure)

Be very careful tho... the last thing you want to do is spoil the way this thing is working for you by trying to "keep things interesting". I guess it depends what you want... a lifting cycle which works, or a lifting cycle which is fun. There is probably a happy medium.

My personal opinion is that people (even "bodybuilders") shouldn't be worrying about hypertrophy until they are benching more than 1.5 times bodyweight, squatting 2 times bodyweight olympic style ass to floor, and deadlifting 2.5 times bodyweight. The 5x5 will still give you plenty of hypertrophy if you are eating correctly, and its much easier to hypertrophy when you're repping out significantly over your bodyweight later, if its the bodybuilding route you wish to take.

For what its worth, Coach Rippetoe consistently adds about 20lbs of LEAN mass to his drug-free lifters in a 3 month period when they want to hypertrophy, and he uses almost exclusively the 5 rep range. So hypertrophy does work in this rep range... its all about diet manipulation.


----------



## bogman

Big - thanks for the great advice. I'll stick to the same rep ranges.

I may try doing a 2 or 3 x 8 on another excercise using a weight that isn't too hard - but I take your point about pushing it too much.

The one thing I'm still interested in doing is substituting Squats for Deadlifts. I haven't done any squats while I've been on this programme (ie about 6 months). Would this be a good idea? At least this would give me a small bit of change in the routine!

Thanks, Bogman.


----------



## big

Yes, I would certainly include squats. I normally base my routines around this lift.


----------



## winger

big said:


> Yes, I would certainly include squats. I normally base my routines around this lift.


 Great advice Big. :thumbup1:


----------



## bogman

Ok - thanks guys - I'll substitute Squats for Deadlifts for the next cycle or two.


----------



## SnakeyB

Hi, I've just found this site & joined this today. First off, great read, this is one of many great posts I've stumbled across.

Got a few questions - about resting times between sets 1) do you change rest times for the intensity & volume sections? 2) what is a good ballpark inter-set rest time (or for each rep/set range if you'd recommend a different one for each). This is the part of my routine I've always had lingering doubts about, i currently do a warmup then 3 working sets of 6-8reps with 2mins rest in-between sets.

I take it the 5x5 & 3x3 is in addition to at least one warmup set (& I guess maybe 2 depending on the weight?)

Also, I'm natural so is the timetable of 4 weeks then deloading etc still going to apply or would you expect it to vary greatly for someone not on gear.

Thanks


----------



## bogman

SnakeyB said:


> Got a few questions - about resting times between sets 1) do you change rest times for the intensity & volume sections? 2) what is a good ballpark inter-set rest time (or for each rep/set range if you'd recommend a different one for each). This is the part of my routine I've always had lingering doubts about, i currently do a warmup then 3 working sets of 6-8reps with 2mins rest in-between sets.
> 
> I take it the 5x5 & 3x3 is in addition to at least one warmup set (& I guess maybe 2 depending on the weight?)


I personally only take 60 to 90 seconds between sets. However, when I get to the last week of the 3 x 3 and am on heavy weights, I sometimes take a bit longer. I don't think you should need longer than 2 to 3 minutes between sets. But either way, just try to keep it consistent.



SnakeyB said:


> Also, I'm natural so is the timetable of 4 weeks then deloading etc still going to apply or would you expect it to vary greatly for someone not on gear.
> 
> Thanks


No - it should still work great for you. I had been doing weights natural for about 2 1/2 years and had hit a bit of a rut until I started doing this routine - but made good progress on this once I switched. I've also used it while on gear. But either way, you can stick to 4 weeks. The only reason I would be tempted to do a week longer is if you're still making progress - but if you plan to build up to your max's you can generally avoid this.


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## big

SnakeyB said:


> Hi, I've just found this site & joined this today. First off, great read, this is one of many great posts I've stumbled across.
> 
> Got a few questions - about resting times between sets 1) do you change rest times for the intensity & volume sections? 2) what is a good ballpark inter-set rest time (or for each rep/set range if you'd recommend a different one for each). This is the part of my routine I've always had lingering doubts about, i currently do a warmup then 3 working sets of 6-8reps with 2mins rest in-between sets.
> 
> I take it the 5x5 & 3x3 is in addition to at least one warmup set (& I guess maybe 2 depending on the weight?)
> 
> Also, I'm natural so is the timetable of 4 weeks then deloading etc still going to apply or would you expect it to vary greatly for someone not on gear.
> 
> Thanks


Nice post by bogman, which answers your questions, but I will chime in with my 2 cents too 

1. Entirely up to you. Don't worry too much about rest times - the main thing is you rest long enough to manage the next set - but not so long that you cool down. It's different for everyone. In the first week or two you should blitz through with minimal rest - but in the final week of loading, you may need a few mins to regroup between the 4th and 5th set!

2. 2-3 minutes is a good starting point. Most people should be able to get it to around 90 seconds in the first couple of weeks, and need closer to 4-5 mins in the last week. It's no big deal - some people need ages, others have more stamina. If you want to bring your rest times down, focus on doing a training cycle to improve that. Definitely don't allow yourself to fail purely because you didn't rest long enough!

3. Lots of warm-ups! Largely it depends on the weights you're lifting. If you're about to bench 40kg, you won't need many warm-ups. The guy who comes in deadlifting 350kg will need anything up to a dozen warm-up lifts. For an intermediate joe about to bench 5x5 for 100kg, I would consider:

* bar x lots

* 60kg x 8

* 80kg x 5

* 90kg x 3

* 100kg x 5 x 5

Warm-ups should not be challenging, but should get your blood flowing and get you ready for the work set(s).

4. Four weeks is a sensible starting point for your first couple of training cycles. If you find you are peaking at 3 weeks, do 3 weeks in future. If you find that the final week was easy, extend to 5-6 weeks. Everybody is different. Gear might make a difference, but 4 weeks is a sensible starting point whether you are natty or not.

Just experiment and find what works for you.


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## ragahav

Hey big thanks for this post ..really because I really got some nice pointers from this thread ..I have been on 5*5 since last August and didn't exactly know the concept of loading and deloading per se. Although I had started varying the order of my exercises to keep the change and break the adaptability, however this thread has given me a new insight ..I have just skimmed through your posts but I will give a through look tomorrow .. ...will be posting some queries soon  ...thanks big time again


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## SnakeyB

Probably should've subscribed to this, totally forgot I posted it & just refound it now - thanks btw! :thumbup1: Got a couple followups if you don't mind



big said:


> 2. 2-3 minutes is a good starting point. Most people should be able to get it to around 90 seconds in the first couple of weeks, and need closer to 4-5 mins in the last week. It's no big deal - some people need ages, others have more stamina. If you want to bring your rest times down, focus on doing a training cycle to improve that. Definitely don't allow yourself to fail purely because you didn't rest long enough!
> 
> 3. Lots of warm-ups! Largely it depends on the weights you're lifting. If you're about to bench 40kg, you won't need many warm-ups. The guy who comes in deadlifting 350kg will need anything up to a dozen warm-up lifts. For an intermediate joe about to bench 5x5 for 100kg, I would consider:
> 
> * bar x lots
> 
> * 60kg x 8
> 
> * 80kg x 5
> 
> * 90kg x 3
> 
> * 100kg x 5 x 5


So, off on a mild tangent, if you were focusing on decreasing resting times would you keep reps, sets, weight constant & progressivly rest for shorter times inbetween? And in the same way that if you are increasing your bench for a given set/rep range you can say "I am becoming stronger" if you were to decrease your resting times you could say "I am becoming ____" - what sort of fitness gains would the blank be, some element of muscular endurance?

Resting times wise I'm more worried about wasting time than anything else, tho fatigue is an issue sometimes. I find the intensity tails off if I workout much longer than an hour, once it gets to 90mins I might as well not bother (also theres the catabolic hormonal changes which I'm aware of) so I'm limited to 4 exercises per day at the moment. With squats I tend to rest till i'm not out of breath anymore, usually about 3mins. To be honest what I'm doing is working right now so I'll stick with it till I'm ready / needing to change to dual factor.

PS 5 warmup sets - now I see why you can only fit in 2 exercises per session!


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## big

Yes, typically if you were interested in muscular endurance / speed of recovery between sets, let the loading be reduced rest times rather than increased weight. There is of course no reason why you can't increase the weight a small amount, and decrease the rest time a small amount - it's just what you want to prioritise during that training cycle.

Certainly with this type of training, there's no reason to be anywhere near 90 mins per session (unless of course you're looking to load by adding volume). The workouts I've listed should take around 40-45 mins - perhaps longer in the final week as we're focussing on hitting the weights and may need more warm-ups too as we're lifting more than in earlier weeks.

Ultimately you just need to decide your priority. Do you want to get stronger, more endurance, quicker recovery, able to handle more volume? There's no reason why you can't improve more than one thing per training cycle, but never lose sight of your (realistic but stretching) goal of your training cycle. It's better to get better at one thing than fail and stay the same at lots of things


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## wmullen

I know this thread is a bit old, but I'm about to give it a go and just wondered what way you handle the loading on chins?

For example if 5x5 at BW is taking me right around failure on the final set or before, then how do I adjust down accordingly so that I'm nowhere near failure

on the first week? Do I substitute pulldowns?

Also I'm assuming that failure should only be happening on the final set of week 4, all other weeks of the 5x5 should be well away from failure? And the 3x3 weeks, should

I be right around failure then?


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## powerhousepeter

wmullen said:


> I know this thread is a bit old, but I'm about to give it a go and just wondered what way you handle the loading on chins?
> 
> For example if 5x5 at BW is taking me right around failure on the final set or before, then how do I adjust down accordingly so that I'm nowhere near failure
> 
> on the first week? Do I substitute pulldowns?
> 
> Also I'm assuming that failure should only be happening on the final set of week 4, all other weeks of the 5x5 should be well away from failure? And the 3x3 weeks, should
> 
> I be right around failure then?


i would just keep doing the 5 sets to failure as normal and then do the deload as the program states, then after you should find youl be abit stronger even if you only get 1 more rep, if thats not the case then you will have to address it


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