# BODYBUILDING PREP GUYS - IS IT CHEATING



## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

Probably a controversial thread:whistling:

But here I sit reading the forums etc etc and it seems every wanna be amatuer Bodybuilder is hiring the services of a "Prep Guy"

Now in the past, it was usually only the elite or proffesional bodybuilder that had any need for a "Prep Guy"

Most of us (when I competed) normal BBders researched for themselves and learnt their own bodys by years of trial and error, and by putting in the hard work..

Indeed all thecurrent "prep Guys" on scene are for most part Old school and have made their way to top the hard way as it were....

Now Im all for sharing knowledge etc etc, thats how we progress, But it occurs to me that any average dude, if has enough spare cash can hire a "prep guy" and basically SPOON FEED him\her thro every stage of preperation and Take the real hard work out of it...

It was intelligence that seperated the genetic best from the genetic MEAT HEAD...

Now a MEAT HEAD who ordinarily would have neither the commitment, the drive, the will or indeed the intelligence, no matter how good his genetics were an dwould never achieve anything..

Now same person can pay some "prep Guy" and act like a puppet and clean up....

Now Im torn on the subject

But you can see where im coming from

What are your thoughts??


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## M_at (May 2, 2009)

You're just bitter.

Nah - I sort of agree that some people would never make it as far without the spoon feeding but I disagree on the commitment comment - you still need the commitment even if you're not 100% on the understanding.


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## Guest (Jul 30, 2009)

Well for guys like me the biggest advantage is that you should not doubt the methods at all while if you do your own diet once you get tired and flat you may start thinking your diet is no good and change and thus fvck up.

Now the guys who have a trainer for the off season and a diet coach for the off season and then a trainer for dieting and a diet coach for dieting they could be at risk of never learning how to do things for them self.

Some "athletes" certainly look like simple puppets when it comes to bodybuilding i am reffering to comments like "oh i have no idea what i take i just take what i am told"......


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## Dean00 (Jan 25, 2009)

I would love to have a "prep guy" but i think amatures dont need it.

I like researchin and expanding my knowldge of training nutrition etc for prepping thats the fun of it and thats whats going to make your a better bodybuilder in the long run


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## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

Dean00 said:


> I would love to have a "prep guy" but i think amatures dont need it.
> 
> I like researchin and expanding my knowldge of training nutrition etc for prepping thats the fun of it and thats whats going to make your a better bodybuilder in the long run


I think your probably right there


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## hilly (Jan 19, 2008)

you on about me here big guy as i just mentioned hiring some body  .

My reason is i have researched my butt off for the past 2 years and yes i havnt competed but i have done 2 mock pre comp diets and trying different methods and not achieved that stage look i wanted/needed to.

I have hired some1 not to just help me prep for a show but off season as well. i contacted a couple of people but part of my request was i didnt just want to be given a plan to follow but i wanted to know why i was doing it and have an input also.

It for me is more about increasing my knowledge and another means of research just as much as trying to learn some tricks the more experienced people have as well as getting help 

i was tempted to ask you joe but i dont like stella or jaffa cakes


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## XJPX (Jan 10, 2009)

I have to disagree mate, I still am the one putting in the hard work with the 2 hours of cardio a day and making sur I stik soley to my diet without giving in to any cravings, granted an experienced eye helps tweak thins is advantageous but its jus like any sport.......people have coaches and traners or do u expect pro athletes of all disciplines to learn by trial and error??


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## Guest (Jul 30, 2009)

Dean00 said:


> I would love to have a "prep guy" but i think amatures dont need it.
> 
> I like researchin and expanding my knowldge of training nutrition etc for prepping thats the fun of it and thats whats going to make your a better bodybuilder in the long run


Lol....wrong attitude mate.

Amateur... pro... wannabee ...whatever you are your goal for competing should be to win and not only win but to crush the others in your class.

In a sport where you put your life at risk with chemicals, unnaturally harsh dieting, stressful training not to mention the cost money wise that competing costs and the stress it puts on relationships you would be a fool to think a prep guy is not a good idea...........

Personally i know far more about nutrition and dieting now after 5 months of working with Pscarb and it was not like i was clueless and had never dieted down to a lean state before!


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## LittleChris (Jan 17, 2009)

:lol:

Well I would say, if you have put in the hardwork why risk ****ing it up with a **** diet and stepping on to stage looking worse than you would have done had you been prepped by somebody in the know.

See your point though and have been compiling an extensive folder for my cut next year, should I choose to go it alone. :thumb:


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## Dean00 (Jan 25, 2009)

Lol....wrong attitude mate.

Amateur... pro... wannabee ...whatever you are your goal for competing should be to win and not only win but to crush the others in your class.

In a sport where you put your life at risk with chemicals, unnaturally harsh dieting, stressful training not to mention the cost money wise that competing costs and the stress it puts on relationships you would be a fool to think a prep guy is not a good idea........

the reason i dont have one is money and the fact that there are not many who actuli no what there doing around here. and i dont be putting my life at risk with chemeicals.

As i said before if your gona get sum1 to work it all out for you, whenever you have to do it on youre own you will be useless? i think a bodybuilder should be educated on nutrition etc not just have muscles.


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## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

hilly2008 said:


> *you on about me here big guy* as i just mentioned hiring some body  .
> 
> My reason is i have researched my butt off for the past 2 years and yes i havnt competed but i have done 2 mock pre comp diets and trying different methods and not achieved that stage look i wanted/needed to.
> 
> ...


No but thanks for sharing that:thumb:

who have you hired mate?? or do i need to read your journal?


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

now this thread is funny.....

a prep coach is a form of information/knowledge just like reading a book or a Internet site but the knowledge is specific to yourself.....how can this be seen as cheating??

prepping someone is not all about nutrition, training or even gear it is being honest and giving feedback or even just straightening the persons head out.....

i consider myself pretty switched on when it comes to making gains and dieting in this sport but i have a prep coach when i diet does that mean i am cheating or does that mean i am being switched on??

guys use steroids, GH, IGF, pMGF and a host of other tools to win shows why should a prep coach be viewed any different than a form of tool to get better placings??


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## hilly (Jan 19, 2008)

jw007 said:


> No but thanks for sharing that:thumb:
> 
> who have you hired mate?? or do i need to read your journal?


haha no need to read journal not a mention of high dose or stella i am on 250mg cruising magte not very exciting.

No1 from the uk mate i decided to go american and hire Phil Hernon.


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

Dean00 said:


> As i said before if your gona get sum1 to work it all out for you, whenever you have to do it on youre own you will be useless? i think a bodybuilder should be educated on nutrition etc not just have muscles.


you are assuming that when a guy or girl works with a prep coach they do this blindly, any decent prep coach will explain the reasoning for everything they do i certainly do not expect the people i work with to follow my advice without fully understanding why you eat a certain food at a certain time or why you take a certain drug at a certain time.....to be fair its not the stupid guys who get coaches it is the guys that pretty much know there stuff but need an outside influence to make sure what is done is the best way for them.......


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## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

Pscarb said:


> now this thread is funny.....
> 
> a prep coach is a form of information/knowledge just like reading a book or a Internet site but the knowledge is specific to yourself.....how can this be seen as cheating??
> 
> ...


But what about if guy in question has no clue and and just follows your advice to letter, ie eats when you say, takes what you say and does not really care why as long as gets results, basically because hes being lazy???

Is that really the image BBing needs?


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## Squirrel (Jun 7, 2009)

Pscarb said:


> a prep coach is a form of information/knowledge just like reading a book or a Internet site but the knowledge is specific to yourself.....how can this be seen as cheating??
> 
> prepping someone is not all about nutrition, training or even gear it is being honest and giving feedback or even just straightening the persons head out.....
> 
> ...


What he said


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## willsey4 (Apr 21, 2008)

I saw this thread title and thought "oh my god, going to be some controversial replies in there!".

Imagine my shock when i saw you started it JW.

However, i do understand why people might think and believe what you have said JW. However I do not think there has been and sucessfull human being in whatever field they might be in that has not got a helping hand along the way. I think years ago it wasnt knowone went with "prep guys". It was more they were not as available as they are today!

Now bodybuilding has grown and grown there are more knowledgeable people around hence we see more of this. A prep guy to me is someone who will be there to guide and teach you, not do the work for you.

Everyone needs a helping hand once in a while


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## Guest (Jul 30, 2009)

Dean00 said:


> the reason i dont have one is money and the fact that there are not many who actuli no what there doing around here. and i dont be putting my life at risk with chemeicals.
> 
> As i said before if your gona get sum1 to work it all out for you, whenever you have to do it on youre own you will be useless? i think a bodybuilder should be educated on nutrition etc not just have muscles.


Ok fair enough you can say that its not an option for you but dont be stating that its not needed for amateur level because i am at amateur level and i honestly dislike people trying to pull down my achievements in this way.

I should hope your not using chemicals seeing that your 17 or 18 but give it time once you move out of junior class which lets be honest is VERY weak in Ireland generally and step out with open "amateurs" then your eyes will be opened.

Also you seem to misunderstand what a prep coach does, like Paul stated above it is far more than "Eat this and dont eat that". Its a constant experienced eye looking over you so when you send your weekly updates in they can change little things be it diet training or even state of mind in order to bring your best package in.

Also just because you have a prep guy does not mean you can not mess up lol far from it.......

Final point i hope that you record what you eat and your work outs so you have a record of what works and what does not. I have a scrap book with pictures work outs and the diet from when Paul helped me so in future i can look back and go "ok this diet change resulted in this change". Its not a case of simply following and then deleting all the info from your brain at least i hope its not for most guys........

I wish i had access to such great help several years ago hell i wish i had access to bb boards when i was your age because all i had was Arnolds book and 4 hours of gym 6 days per week was not the best way to reach my goals

Name another sport or even art form if you prefer to view it like this where people do not seek the guidance of more experienced people to achieve their goals? Its called human nature it is the reason we evolved and are not running around in our own sh1t any more!


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## Dean00 (Jan 25, 2009)

fair nuf. jus giving my opinion


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## Guest (Jul 30, 2009)

Dean00 said:


> fair nuf. jus giving my opinion


Perfectly fine mate my reply was a little harsh i suppose

1 more point just because some is amateur ie has not won their pro cards yet means little as far as their actual physique goes just look at the top super heavys in the UK all of them would dwarf many pro's.


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## ste247 (Mar 18, 2008)

ive never used a prep coach coz i like the fact that when i get on stage ive done it all on my own, i started compeating as a way of character building due to problems i had with alcohol and depression, but i do think prep coaches are a good thing i would have no problem employing one if it meant taking my body to the next level. a prep coach could be the differance from winning and lossing.........


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## Dean00 (Jan 25, 2009)

Yeh but i think you know if your going to spend money on all of the food ,gear, gym membership AND a prepping guy i would like to think that there would be some cash to be won but i suppose people are ok with spending money on things like prep guys.


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## Guest (Jul 30, 2009)

Dean00 said:


> Yeh but i think you know if your going to spend money on all of the food ,gear, gym membership AND a prepping guy i would like to think that there would be some cash to be won but i suppose people are ok with spending money on things like prep guys.


True some prep guys are rather expensive ie several grand and i could not afford this but many others cost very little ie a whole prep for no more than you would spend on a couple of nights out on the town.


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## ste247 (Mar 18, 2008)

Con said:


> Ok fair enough you can say that its not an option for you but dont be stating that its not needed for amateur level because i am at amateur level and i honestly dislike people trying to pull down my achievements in this way.
> 
> I should hope your not using chemicals seeing that your 17 or 18 but give it time once you move out of junior class which lets be honest is VERY weak in Ireland generally and step out with open "amateurs" then your eyes will be opened.
> 
> ...


wow this comes fron the heart.....repped


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## willsey4 (Apr 21, 2008)

ste247 said:


> ive never used a prep coach coz i like the fact that when i get on stage ive done it all on my own, i started compeating as a way of character building due to problems i had with alcohol and depression, but i do think prep coaches are a good thing i would have no problem employing one if it meant taking my body to the next level. a prep coach could be the differance from winning and lossing.........


If you used a prep guy, when you step on stage it doesnt mean that you havent done it all on your own.

Look at it this way.

When I graduated from uni and collected my certificate on stage, i was not dissapointed that people had helped me along the way to get it (teachers/lecturers etc).

Treat a prep guy as guidance/teaching you. You still do all the work


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

jw007 said:


> But what about if guy in question has no clue and and just follows your advice to letter, ie eats when you say, takes what you say and does not really care why as long as gets results, basically because hes being lazy???
> 
> Is that really the image BBing needs?


so the image is a guy who does what he is told and wins a show in condition and this is worse than a guy who injects sh1t loads of gear and looks sh1t onstage or even worse does not even competes this looks good for Bodybuilding how??

Let me give you an example and i am sure the person in question will not mind.....just over 2yrs ago i started working with Del who looked like a average guy who trained but did not apply himself in the nutrition department...he by his own admission new very little about diet and gear to get the best results i prepped him for 12 weeks and took him to a top 3 win in the 1st timers class at the NABBA Scotland now Del had no clue when we started out and he followed my advice to the letter from this he worked hard and placed much better than he ever would of with a prep coach he then grew to love the life more and opened a gym now he preps and helps others who train at his gym i would think this is exactly the image that Bodybuilding needs.....wouldn't you??

i also don't see your point Joe when you use the word *lazy* as i have yet had to perform the cardio, training on low to zero carbs after 12-16 weeks dieting all the bodybuilders i know who are prepped do all the work with 100% intensity no matter if they have a clue or not to why they are doing it....


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## weeman (Sep 6, 2007)

willsey4 said:


> I saw this thread title and thought "oh my god, going to be some controversial replies in there!".
> 
> Imagine my shock when i saw you started it JW.
> 
> ...


i think i am almost sure Dorian Yates goes on record as saying he didnt have a helping hand from anyone when it came to prep,it was all his own work and research that got him where he did come prep stuff.


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## Guest (Jul 30, 2009)

weeman said:


> i think i am almost sure Dorian Yates goes on record as saying he didnt have a helping hand from anyone when it came to prep,it was all his own work and research that got him where he did come prep stuff.


However even the mighty Yates admits to talking about various ideas with other guys with a massive level of knowlage. He did not live under a rock come up with every idea by him self and then destroy every one.


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

willsey4 said:


> Treat a prep guy as guidance/teaching you. You still do all the work


exactly mate prep guys can only give you the advise it is still down to you to apply the knowledge....


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## willsey4 (Apr 21, 2008)

weeman said:


> i think i am almost sure Dorian Yates goes on record as saying he didnt have a helping hand from anyone when it came to prep,it was all his own work and research that got him where he did come prep stuff.


Ok, well if he didnt have one bit of help along the way then all i can do is hold my hands up to him as that is pretty impressive. If i didnt have any help along the way I would still be the 13 stone lanky kid!

Ok, i might of worded it wrong saying "there hasnt been one person" etc but you get what i mean. The majority of people get help along the way at one point in their life.


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## LittleChris (Jan 17, 2009)

I read somwhere that Borrenson was advising him on DNP cycles?


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## rs007 (May 28, 2007)

I dont think it is cheating, but I dont think its something I would ever do. I want the responsibility. If I f*ck up, I want it to be down to me, my choices. Its just as important know what doesnt work as what does.

Also - and I mean no disrespect to anyone that does prep for clients so PLEASE no one take it personal - but I havent seen any radically different or new theories, just more of the same really - established principals, that you can generally get FOC over the net just by chatting. Sure, everyone claims to have their wee secrets, but its all BS...

Maybe it would be different if I didnt have such a supportive missus and training partner? Could maybe see the benefit in that situation.


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## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

weeman said:


> i think i am almost sure Dorian Yates goes on record as saying he didnt have a helping hand from anyone when it came to prep,it was all his own work and research that got him where he did come prep stuff.


A true champion IMO

Im sure he "asked" people, but decisions\mistakes he made were his and his alone...

There is a difference between "seeking guidance\knowledge" and being spoon fed..


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

weeman said:


> i think i am almost sure Dorian Yates goes on record as saying he didnt have a helping hand from anyone when it came to prep,it was all his own work and research that got him where he did come prep stuff.


Brian sorry mate but in last months MD Dorian spoke of when he competed he was asked about a prep coach and he said he did not have one but he did have a small circle of friends who he trusted for certain advice be this to take a look at him to make sure he was on the right track or to bounce ideas off them for supplements he still did not do it all on his own......

every sport in the world have coaches, nutritionists why is bodybuilding any different?? i am sure David Beckham when he first started with Man Utd knew how to kick a ball but did he know what foods would give him the energy to make him a better footballer no he was coached so he is a cheat?????


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## BigDom86 (Jul 27, 2008)

its an unfair advantage to those who can afford a prep guy sure. but dont see it as cheating. but then again what do i know


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## rs007 (May 28, 2007)

Pscarb said:


> Let me give you an example and i am sure the person in question will not mind.....just over 2yrs ago i started working with Del who looked like a average guy who trained but did not apply himself in the nutrition department...he by his own admission new very little about diet and gear to get the best results i prepped him for 12 weeks and took him to a top 3 win in the 1st timers class at the NABBA Scotland now Del had no clue when we started out and he followed my advice to the letter from this he worked hard and placed much better than he ever would of with a prep coach he then grew to love the life more and opened a gym now he preps and helps others who train at his gym i would think this is exactly the image that Bodybuilding needs.....wouldn't you??


That will be the show/class I won with no prep guy :whistling:

Paul, seriously - just yanking your chain mate - you know me, village idiot and proud of it :lol:

Also got a lot of love for Del, one fo the few true standup guys I have met in this fkd up sport.


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## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

Pscarb said:


> *so the image is a guy who does what he is told and wins a show in condition and this is worse than a guy who injects sh1t loads of gear and looks sh1t onstage or even worse does not even competes this looks good for Bodybuilding how??*
> 
> Let me give you an example and i am sure the person in question will not mind.....just over 2yrs ago i started working with Del who looked like a average guy who trained but did not apply himself in the nutrition department...he by his own admission new very little about diet and gear to get the best results i prepped him for 12 weeks and took him to a top 3 win in the 1st timers class at the NABBA Scotland now Del had no clue when we started out and he followed my advice to the letter from this he worked hard and placed much better than he ever would of with a prep coach he then grew to love the life more and opened a gym now he preps and helps others who train at his gym i would think this is exactly the image that Bodybuilding needs.....wouldn't you??
> 
> i also don't see your point Joe when you use the word *lazy* as i have yet had to perform the cardio, training on low to zero carbs after 12-16 weeks dieting all the bodybuilders i know who are prepped do all the work with 100% intensity no matter if they have a clue or not to why they are doing it....


The bit in bold..

Why use two extremes as examples????

There is many a grey area inbetween

You could have used the guy who does what hes told and wins OR

The guy who researches, preps himself, takes advice but uses advice given and modifys it to suit his needs and what he has learnt thr dedication about his body etc etc

Who would be the more inspirational

Puppet or self styled winner???


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## weeman (Sep 6, 2007)

Con said:


> However even the mighty Yates admits to talking about various ideas with other guys with a massive level of knowlage. He did not live under a rock come up with every idea by him self and then destroy every one.


yes but he still took all the info in from the various sources,digested the info and came up with his own conclusions he felt would be most applicable to him. 



willsey4 said:


> Ok, well if he didnt have one bit of help along the way then all i can do is hold my hands up to him as that is pretty impressive. If i didnt have any help along the way I would still be the 13 stone lanky kid!
> 
> Ok, i might of worded it wrong saying "there hasnt been one person" etc but you get what i mean. The majority of people get help along the way at one point in their life.


yes everyone has help from some source or other be it experienced/inexperienced friends around them/the internet/books etc but what i take from JW's opening post is the guys that do this but make their own decisions over those being instructed step by step.



RS2007 said:


> I dont think it is cheating, but I dont think its something I would ever do. I want the responsibility. If I f*ck up, I want it to be down to me, my choices. Its just as important know what doesnt work as what does.
> 
> Also - and I mean no disrespect to anyone that does prep for clients so PLEASE no one take it personal - but I havent seen any radically different or new theories, just more of the same really - established principals, that you can generally get FOC over the net just by chatting. Sure, everyone claims to have their wee secrets, but its all BS...
> 
> Maybe it would be different if I didnt have such a supportive missus and training partner? Could maybe see the benefit in that situation.


i love you too b1tch



Pscarb said:


> Brian sorry mate but in last months MD Dorian spoke of when he competed he was asked about a prep coach and he said he did not have one but he did have a small circle of friends who he trusted for certain advice be this to take a look at him to make sure he was on the right track or to bounce ideas off them for supplements he still did not do it all on his own......
> 
> every sport in the world have coaches, nutritionists why is bodybuilding any different?? i am sure David Beckham when he first started with Man Utd knew how to kick a ball but did he know what foods would give him the energy to make him a better footballer no he was coached so he is a cheat?????


agian i think what i said in reply to con and wilsey apply here,there's no disrespect ment to the prep guys here,at least i'm not reading it that way and no one is saying your helping them cheat!! calm doon mate i dont fancy trying to avoid a swinging arm from you next time i see you lol


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## ste247 (Mar 18, 2008)

willsey4 said:


> If you used a prep guy, when you step on stage it doesnt mean that you havent done it all on your own.
> 
> Look at it this way.
> 
> ...


 you are right m8 100% like i said tho in my case i only started as a way of character building and the sense of doing somit on my own for a change, but when the time comes if i can afford one i wouldnt think twice about hireing one, its still me doing all the hard work in the gym ect.



Con said:


> However even the mighty Yates admits to talking about various ideas with other guys with a massive level of knowlage. He did not live under a rock come up with every idea by him self and then destroy every one.


 yes his whole training style was based on mike mentzers hitt, i use somit simler to dorians while bulking so when iam mr olympia i can say i got my ideas of him lol


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## hilly (Jan 19, 2008)

BigDom86 said:


> its an unfair advantage to those who can afford a prep guy sure. but dont see it as cheating. but then again what do i know


sorry dom but then would that count for a natural athlete competing against some1 who has taken gear(this maybe you as i no yoiu are going to start soon) because the natty athlete cant afford steroids??

I think a the reason getting a prep guy is more common now is for a couple of reasons:

1 - people have more disposable income

2 - From speaking to my dads mates in the old days people in the gym would be more than willing to help you out and guide you and basically do the same thing a prep guy does for free and enjoyment.

Nowadays tho most seem to be only interested if you are buying gear off them. I spoke to 2 guys atleast asking for assistant and was told they would help but i would have to buy my supplements from them. this has been both online and in a local gym.

my new coach/prep guy is cheaper than having to buy expensive and in 1 case ****e gear for the advice.


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

RS2007 said:


> Also - and I mean no disrespect to anyone that does prep for clients so PLEASE no one take it personal - but I havent seen any radically different or new theories, just more of the same really - established principals, that you can generally get FOC over the net just by chatting. Sure, everyone claims to have their wee secrets, but its all BS...


there is no secrets mate i can tell you that now, and yes everything i know i have learnt it from the net mainly but altered it as i have made the mistakes over time......getting in condition is not hard in fact it is a piece of **** doing it over 12-16 weeks without losing muscle or going insane because you think you look fat is the hard part....i know how other coaches do prep and i can tell you now it is not that different than the way i prep people....i prepped myself for 15years and won 2 shows i started working with Harold in 2005 and won every qualifier i have competed in since and got a top 3 finish at the finals,mainly because the thinking is taken away in my prep for the 2004 West Britain i changed my final week prep 15 times in 2 days because i read pieces of info on the net or listened to guys down the gym at that show i came 3rd out of 3......



BigDom86 said:


> its an unfair advantage to those who can afford a prep guy sure. but dont see it as cheating. but then again what do i know


please explain why it is unfair?? that's like saying a guy who eats chicken rather than tuna has an unfair advantage because chicken is a better form of protein??

there is alot of talk on this thread about being spoon fed if any of you think that it is only the guys who know nothing about bodybuilding that get spoon fed then you know nothing yourself guys seriously every single guy who has a coach is spoon fed to a degree.

James Llewellin who in my opinion is one of the most knowledgeable guys out there was spoon fed by Neil Hill last year by his own admission he placed his physique in Neils hands and trusted him 110% why is this different to a guy who does not know alot about bodybuilding and places his trust with a coach??

a prep guy is no different than you taking steroids or performing 2hrs cardio to get in shape for a show it is a tool to give you the advantage onstage which is what it is all about....


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## Ken Hutchinson (May 29, 2009)

Even the best in the world at any sport be it golf, snooker or whatever all have outside help coach's,psycholgist's ronnie o'sullivan has been coached by terry griffiths, now o'sullivan is a better player but he still sought the advise of griffiths, i know a little off track but i hope you get what i mean.


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## weeman (Sep 6, 2007)

RS2007 said:


> *That will be the show/class I won with no prep guy* :whistling:
> 
> Paul, seriously - just yanking your chain mate - you know me, village idiot and proud of it :lol:
> 
> Also got a lot of love for Del, one fo the few true standup guys I have met in this fkd up sport.


hoy!! i babbled useless nonsense all the way thru that diet!!!

fair enough it was all how i awesome i am,how good i looked,how good winning felt,how good i looked,how loud the crowd were,how good i looked....... :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Peter V (May 27, 2009)

I don't think having a prep guy is cheating, but I can see why people wouldn't want to do it.

A lot of people enjoy BBing because it is so individually based. Nobody can let you down apart from yourself, everything you achieve is down to you, and it's fair, you get out what you put in. Therefore, the more people involved, the lesser this individual successful feeling.

With the internet, forums like this, books etc, there is all the information and advice you could need, and trial and error is reduced by reading other people's experiences on websites such as this. So in one way there has never been any less of a need for a prep guy as there is now.

Whatever you read, what ever you're told, you'll always here at the end of any good advice on nutrition or training "Listen to your body, everyone is different" so trial and error, and individual learning is probably always best. Some help won't hurt though lol.


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

RS2007 said:


> That will be the show/class I won with no prep guy :whistling:


 exactly mate i am not saying a prep coach makes someone have better genetics just makes the most of the genetics they have......



RS2007 said:


> Paul, seriously - just yanking your chain mate - you know me, village idiot and proud of it :lol:
> 
> Also got a lot of love for Del, one fo the few true standup guys I have met in this fkd up sport.


RS believe me mate i value your opinion on any subject mate and i never take anything you say to heart buddy.....



jw007 said:


> The bit in bold..
> 
> Why use two extremes as examples????
> 
> There is many a grey area inbetween


Why not Joe, yes there are grey areas mate but your thread title bundles it all into one subject...."is it cheating" no does it give you an advantage yes but then so does certain types of steroids



weeman said:


> agian i think what i said in reply to con and wilsey apply here,there's no disrespect ment to the prep guys here,at least i'm not reading it that way and no one is saying your helping them cheat!! calm doon mate i dont fancy trying to avoid a swinging arm from you next time i see you lol


believe me mate i have not taken any insult from any post on this thread least as much yours, i am enjoying this thread better than some of the tosh JW normally does 

yes i am a prep coach but i am also a competing athlete who has done it himself with little to no knowledge to help him my pic from my first show on the extreme site proves this....  some will benefit from having a prep coach some will not but when you nail it all down it is just another form of knowledge the difference is the knowledge is tailored for you.....


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

alot of the replies against have said why not just use the net or books as then your doing it on your own...etc but is this not the same? if a guy uses a diet i have written and placed on the net how is he doing it on his own?? in my june column i wrote about the final weeks prep for a show now if someone takes that information and applies it to themselves have they done that on their own or have i helped them??


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## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

Pscarb said:


> alot of the replies against have said why not just use the net or books as then your doing it on your own...etc but is this not the same? if a guy uses a diet i have written and placed on the net how is he doing it on his own?? in my june column i wrote about the final weeks prep for a show now if someone takes that information and applies it to themselves have they done that on their own or have i helped them??


I think you misinterpret Paul...

There is a difference between "taking advice onboard" etc etc and then doing your own thing to on so many journals now you see

"my prep guy told me to eat this so I am"

"my prep guy told me to do 30mins cardio so i am"

etc etc


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## rs007 (May 28, 2007)

Pscarb said:


> i am enjoying this thread better than some of the tosh JW normally does


Ouch :lol: :lol: :lol:

The other side of it why I probably wouldnt use a paid for prep guy, is I would feel like I was letting them down, no matter what - never good enough - and the pressure to attain perfection/acceptance as having done a good job would more than likely knock me out the running to be honest.

I like to be answerable only to me, rain or shine, when it comes to BB endeavours.

Might be different if I ever got into a position where a little help might get me into the "big time", but being realistic I know that is never going to be a concern of mine so cant see that situation occuring.

I def dont see it as cheating, and totally disagree with Bigdom on the unfair advatage point - an advatage, yes, unfair - how can it possibly be, in this sport of so many advantages available.

Just like gear, growth, synthol - fkn fillet steak over lean steak mince - you pays your money and takes your choice, but the advatages are their available to everyone, so can never be unfair - IMO

Interesting thread, nice one JW


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## hilly (Jan 19, 2008)

RS2007 said:


> Ouch :lol: :lol: :lol:
> 
> The other side of it why I probably wouldnt use a paid for prep guy, is I would feel like I was letting them down, no matter what - never good enough - and the pressure to attain perfection/acceptance as having done a good job would more than likely knock me out the running to be honest.
> 
> ...


Now for me having a prep guy i am hoping will have the reverse affect RS and make me not want to slack and help push me because i wont want to fail him and know i have failed him, myself and in theory wasted my money.

For me a prep guy tho is more about the wealth of knowledge they have/may have and acuiring that knowledge and helping it expand and improve myself.

you guys have to remember what works for a prep guy may not work for you and your body may be completely different to any1 he has prepd before theirfor he is actually learning from you as well.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

I think it is a great idea.

First when people diet, they can look in the mirror and see things that might not be there.

I have seen many guys start experimenting during a prep and turn in many directions.

A prep guy can give direction and a plan to stay the course.

Many people get moody as hell and have a problem thinking clearly when dieting.

A prep guy would re-assure and also see the subtle diffrences, and focus on the parts that the person might not see.

I have seen a bunch of dudes go catabolic and look totally flat on the day, a prep guy might suggest some carbs or something else.

Many of the prep guys just know how it is done and although it would give one an advantage, that advantage could help them win a contest or place, where they might not place.

I think most of the guys get someone to help them prep.


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## Joshua (Aug 21, 2008)

One major advantage that I see is that when a person is in the last few weeks before a show, lots of people seem to be loosing their marbles a bit - whether it be with the diet, stress, or whatnot. This sort of mental state seems to lend itself well to taking unwise radical courses of action eg( upping doses, diuretic play) , or being particularly suceptable to uneducated influences eg( ones non-bb friends saying "you look awesome" which maybe true compared to the average person in the street, but not for a bb comp).

An experienced coach seems to be able to bring their people in on a steady, even pace avoiding silly radical moves, whilst also providing honest & realistic feedback/critique.

J


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

jw007 said:


> I think you misinterpret Paul...
> 
> There is a difference between "taking advice onboard" etc etc and then doing your own thing to on so many journals now you see
> 
> ...


so it is how they write in their journals that annoys you 

Harold tells me i have to up my cardio to 60min i do it does this mean i am spoon fed and know nothing?? he explains to me why it is needed i am sure other prep coaches do the same just because the person does not put it in a journal does not mean it does not happen.....



RS2007 said:


> Ouch :lol: :lol: :lol:
> 
> The other side of it why I probably wouldnt use a paid for prep guy, is I would feel like I was letting them down, no matter what - never good enough - and the pressure to attain perfection/acceptance as having done a good job would more than likely knock me out the running to be honest.
> 
> I like to be answerable only to me, rain or shine, when it comes to BB endeavours.


this is fair enough and not everyone needs a prep coach, people employ coaches for different reasons i needed one because i knew to much i constantly read and changed my mind on several aspects when dieting because i did not think straight.......James L employed Neil to take him to the extreme to win his Pro card.......to be honest the main reason guys/girls look for a prep coach is because all the info out there is confusing as everyone has an opinion so choosing the correct one for you is hard.....


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## weeman (Sep 6, 2007)

hilly2008 said:


> *Now for me having a prep guy i am hoping will have the reverse affect RS and make me not want to slack and help push me because i wont want to fail him and know i have failed him*, myself and in theory wasted my money.
> 
> For me a prep guy tho is more about the wealth of knowledge they have/may have and acuiring that knowledge and helping it expand and improve myself.
> 
> you guys have to remember what works for a prep guy may not work for you and your body may be completely different to any1 he has prepd before theirfor he is actually learning from you as well.


i think you misenterprited RS when he said that mate,what he is meaning is,when you get into that mindset,when you've done all the prep for an actual show,killed yourself,burst your ass,for me,and i know for RS it still doesnt feel enough,and even tho you know you couldnt,you still feel you could have tried harder,and thats a crazy mindstate,but unfortunately its the reality,and even if you got to showday and felt you did everything possible in your power to get into the best possible shape you could have,and even if you win,a few days later you will still feel like you could have tried that little bit harder,that little bit more,and for even those reason's,as nuts as it sounds makes you feel as if you have failed someone,yourself even.

lol bodybuilding,the only sport you can win and still be unhappy with yourself.


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

Joshua said:


> An experienced coach seems to be able to bring their people in on a steady, even pace avoiding silly radical moves, whilst also providing honest & realistic feedback/critique.
> 
> J


this is by far the biggest part of prep.....


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## rs007 (May 28, 2007)

Pscarb said:


> this is fair enough and not everyone needs a prep coach, people employ coaches for different reasons i needed one because i knew to much i constantly read and changed my mind on several aspects when dieting because i did not think straight.......James L employed Neil to take him to the extreme to win his Pro card.......to be honest the main reason guys/girls look for a prep coach is because all the info out there is confusing as everyone has an opinion so choosing the correct one for you is hard.....


100% agree with this, especially with respect to the confusion etc.


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## BigDom86 (Jul 27, 2008)

i just think people should try things themselves first. guys who are going for a first comp imo shouldnt be getting prep guys from such an early stage, sounds like a stupid post but its my point of view. someone like James L then sure, but he is the cream of the crop


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## Guest (Jul 30, 2009)

BigDom86 said:


> i just think people should try things themselves first. guys who are going for a first comp imo shouldnt be getting prep guys from such an early stage, sounds like a stupid post but its my point of view. someone like James L then sure, but he is the cream of the crop


Its easy to say that but when you actual do the prep and realize that your needing to take 3-5 months of your life and dedicate it to this one goal then your opinion shall change. Unless of course you intend to live forever and you have unlimited months to dedicate to things:lol:


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## BigDom86 (Jul 27, 2008)

Con said:


> Its easy to say that but when you actual do the prep and realize that your needing to take 3-5 months of your life and dedicate it to this one goal then your opinion shall change. Unless of course you intend to live forever and you have unlimited months to dedicate to things:lol:


i will live to 100 years+ i have the secrets:cool2:


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## dixie normus (May 11, 2008)

You can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make it drink.

People is all walks of sport have coaches at all levels. whether you learn from them and improve yourself is up to you.

Joe - You have a young daughter. In a few years she might want to take up a martial art. Are you going to buy her a book and an internet connection and tell her to learn for herself? I doubt it, you'll find the best local coach who runs classes and enrol her happily paying the cost.

Is that any different from someone hiring Pscarb, or any other prep coach, to help them be their best on stage? I say not.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Joshua said:


> One major advantage that I see is that when a person is in the last few weeks before a show, lots of people seem to be loosing their marbles a bit - whether it be with the diet, stress, or whatnot. This sort of mental state seems to lend itself well to taking unwise radical courses of action eg( upping doses, diuretic play) , or being particularly suceptable to uneducated influences eg( ones non-bb friends saying "you look awesome" which maybe true compared to the average person in the street, but not for a bb comp).
> 
> An experienced coach seems to be able to bring their people in on a steady, even pace avoiding silly radical moves, whilst also providing honest & realistic feedback/critique.
> 
> J


Very nice post mate, quite refreshing actually.

*
PScarb...........*

Very nice post as well, you are one to help so many people, and many of those you help are champions.

You are such a good ambassador to the sport.

Your help will not go un-rewarded.


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## Guest (Jul 31, 2009)

> "my prep guy told me to eat this so I am"
> 
> "my prep guy told me to do 30mins cardio so i am"


Very true there are alot of builders out there who do just that- just what XYor Z says even at a high levels. These days its prep coaches dieticians and doctors- possibly posing coaches as well- its more of a team not a singular person. Like UFc team couture- not just one person these days.

And i would not consider it cheating at all.


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## Prodiver (Nov 14, 2008)

He who knows, and knows he knows, he is a wise man - follow him.

He who knows, and knows not he knows, he is asleep - wake him.

He who knows not, and knows he knows not, he is a child - teach him.

He who knows not, and knows not he knows not, he is a fool - shun him!"

Bodybuilders and prep coaches, like everyone, fit into all these categories...

How can you tell a truly knowledgable prep coach? Like everything else in life it's uncertain, but clear thinking and expounding, consistent reasoning and results surely speak volumes.

There are lots of successful bodybuilders who might pass on valuable advice, but have never taken the time to marshal it so they can comprehend, explain and argue it convincingly. There's nothing wrong with asking reasoned advice of fellow successful bodybuilders. Wake them up!

Many keen and gifted bodybuilders aren't intellectuals, or have got out of the way of book-learning and thinking clearly, and like children they need to have their hands held and be guided a lot. Teach them - but never underestimate their capacity, sooner or later, to recognize bull$hit!

And then there are those who frankly talk obvious bo!!ocks. Their inconsistency and transparently weak arguments always betray them...


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## supercell (Aug 23, 2005)

Good thread Joe and a very interesting topic. Difficult one to answer this.

We live in a society that wants everything now. We dont want to have to fall on our ars*s time after time before maybe stumbling upon the answer. The thing is there isn't a blueprint to all of this. I may diet guys in a certain way but that doesn't mean that every one of my clients responds the same.

Its also about confidence. I hired someone to give me the confidence to try something different, to bring in a look that was drastically different from the look I had prior. It's all about trusting the individual and feeling confident about their methods.

My methods haven't changed since working with Neil but what it has made me is bolder with my own clients, knowing what the human body is and isn't capable of.

I always explain why I do something to my clients, there has to be a rationale, not just a 'because'. This helps them learn about the sport, how their body's will react and why we do certain things at certain stages. If there is an action there will always be a reaction.

More importantly being a good coach is also about having an eye and being honest about what you see.

Most guys when they say they have another 7lbs to come off, have another 14lb at least. Most guys will say in the last week they wish they had another 2 weeks to prepare. Most guys will say they looked better the day after. Most guys will say a week out they looked great.

By hiring a coach I looked best on the day of the show which is crucial to everything and that's what I strive to do with my athletes.

I am extremely fortunate to be able to make a good living doing what I love. I pride myself in what I do and whether I am working with a first timer or a seasoned international competitor, the feeling is the same when they are up there on stage.

Most people think that dieting should be hard and yes the last 3-4 weeks will be. However, if you are feeling dreadful before that you are doing something very wrong.

Dieting is simple, most bodybuilders make it far more complicated than it actually is. My methods are basic, very basic, but also logical, even to an individual that has very little knowledge of dieting. They very quickly understand the reasoning behind why I do it a certain way and in stages throughout the dieting phase.

Half the battle is keeping the weight under control in the off season and why the guys I work with year round never go more than 2 stone over contest weight. The sooner people realise how dated bulking really is, there will be a lot more conditioned athletes on stage, whether that be with coaches or without.

J


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## Captain Hero (Jun 13, 2004)

If prep guys are cheating arent steroids technically cheating too? 

Both are for advancement of physique

Both *can* help with condition for show day

If you lack the knowledge and dont know where to go to find out, or what to read how is going to a guy who knows that can help any worse than going to a forum and getting it from there.......?


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## miles2345 (Mar 26, 2008)

i think youra a big jealous **** who is upset cos no1 wanted to help you!!  :whistling:

dont neg me ill lose all 370000 of my hard earned reps:beer:


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## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

miles2345 said:


> i think youra a big jealous **** who is upset cos no1 wanted to help you!!  :whistling:
> 
> dont neg me ill lose all 370000 of my hard earned reps:beer:


your being prepped are you not???

And you hate unfair advantage in sport, tut tut


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

if we are talking about an unfair advantage do we include Dream Tan??


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## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

Pscarb said:


> if we are talking about an unfair advantage do we include Dream Tan??


if you advised it yes:lol: :lol: :lol:


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

jw007 said:


> if you advised it yes:lol: :lol: :lol:


only if i advised to someone who did not know what it was for:whistling: :thumb:


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## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

Pscarb said:


> only if i *advised* to someone who did not know what it was for:whistling: :thumb:


I prefer spoon fed:whistling:


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

jw007 said:


> I prefer spoon fed:whistling:


no it tastes aweful.... :thumb:


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## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

Pscarb said:


> if we are talking about an unfair advantage do we include Dream Tan??


That actaully is quite a good point....

Posing routines, the whole fun is making them up yourself, imagination is part of BBing IMO

If you pay a choreographer and have no input, what about that??


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

well i make mine up the night before the show then change it onstage so cannot be included in that one


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## miles2345 (Mar 26, 2008)

is it as much of an unfair advantage as using Extreme Nutrition??


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

miles2345 said:


> is it as much of an unfair advantage as using Extreme Nutrition??


now that is a unfair advantage :thumb:


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## hilly (Jan 19, 2008)

i suppose bodybuilders have been getting advise with posing since arnies day if not before. most of us have seen pumping iron were he is getting help from a ballet instuctor i believe. i could be wrong i havnt seen it in a long time


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## rs007 (May 28, 2007)

Pscarb said:


> now that is a unfair advantage :thumb:


Not really - "Almost" an unfair advantage, not actually :lol:


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## rs007 (May 28, 2007)

Pscarb said:


> well i make mine up the night before the show then change it onstage so cannot be included in that one


 :thumb:

Yay! me too. Unfortunately with me it is blatantly obvious tho' :lol:


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## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

RS2007 said:


> :thumb:
> 
> Yay! me too. Unfortunately with me it is blatantly obvious tho' :lol:


 i used to think about mine for ages...

I think why go to all that effort to not show off yourself the best

Posing is neglected loads IMO

People always remember the good posers, and good posers with good physiques even more


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## rs007 (May 28, 2007)

jw007 said:


> i used to think about mine for ages...
> 
> I think why go to all that effort to not show off yourself the best
> 
> ...


I know, Im only joking, Im fkng awesome. Fair enough I dont present my ar$e to the judges like some mad men I have seen on poor quality VHS over the years... :whistling:


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## Gym Bunny (Mar 25, 2009)

Very good thread Joe.

From my point of view, which is someone who doesn't compete but who has supported people who do, I think having a comp prep guy is like having a coach for any other competitive sport.

It isn't cheating. It's having an objective outside opinion and expert advice. Someone who will kick you up the ass if need be, guide you away from potential f*ckups and help you do the best you possibly can.

But IMO at the end of the day you have to put the effort in. If you don't want it and have 100% dedication then no prep guy is gonna make you win. Also think it helps hugely if your family, friends/partner support you.


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## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

On a positive tho

Sometimes I agree a bodybuilder lacks confidence, and does not belive in themselves despite the obvious potential...

I see this a lot in people, A good prep guy can bring out best in people despite their own reservations


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## weeman (Sep 6, 2007)

miles2345 said:


> is it as much of an unfair advantage as using Extreme Nutrition??


we're angry Dougie Black powered mofo's,we're so extreme we sometimes even drive...WITHOUT OUR SEATBELTS ON!!!

Extreme hardcore mofo,thats the way we roll.



Pscarb said:


> now that is a unfair advantage :thumb:


yeah baby :thumbup1:



RS2007 said:


> Not really - "Almost" an unfair advantage, not actually :lol:


actually yeah Paul,get it right,we're almost an unfair advantage on the competition,like my showing at the brits this year,had to lure those guys into a false sense of security by coming last place so i can unleash the beast in 2011 !!!

first i just gotta find a guy to prep in class 2 thats good enough!!!

what?you thought i ment me? lololol


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## weeman (Sep 6, 2007)

jw007 said:


> i used to think about mine for ages...
> 
> I think why go to all that effort to not show off yourself the best
> 
> ...


i make mine up as i stand on the stage lmao thankfully most of the time i am incredible and not only do the judges announce me winner,they go home and dream about me,and from what i hear in some cases even have their wife shave off her head hair,talk in a scottish accent and lather themselves in a p1ss smelling cloth to get that authentic ginger weeman smell. :lol: :lol: :lol:



jw007 said:


> On a positive tho
> 
> Sometimes I agree a bodybuilder lacks confidence, and does not belive in themselves despite the obvious potential...
> 
> I see this a lot in people, A good prep guy can bring out best in people despite their own reservations


hmmmmmm


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

weeman said:


> first i just gotta find a guy to prep in class 2 thats good enough!!!
> 
> what?you thought i ment me? lololol


i know someone who has no booking yet for 2011.... :whistling:


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## Ex-SRD (Sep 9, 2008)

I agree with alot of what Paul has said.

I dislike the term 'prep guy', although I have been referred to as one myself. I also dislike the ph**** 'doing your prep' or anything similar. I am merely a nutrition advisor who helps someone prepare for a show; a more cumbersome description maybe, but surely a more accurate one.

I also NEVER spoon feed anyone; I educate and teach. All my clients get a full explanation of why I am advising things. I also need their feedback, and from this feedback I may change things.

None of my clients are 'lazy' either. They simply want advice. If I feel I'm not the best to advise them, then I'll seek advice form someone else too; I pass clients to other Team MT members for their valued input.


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## weeman (Sep 6, 2007)

Ex-SRD said:


> I agree with alot of what Paul has said.
> 
> I dislike the term 'prep guy', although I have been referred to as one myself. I also dislike the *ph***** 'doing your prep' or anything similar. I am merely a nutrition advisor who helps someone prepare for a show; a more cumbersome description maybe, but surely a more accurate one.
> 
> ...


James,i have new found respect for you,only you could come up with a swear word that begins with ph lololol now what the hell is the bits behind the stars??:laugh:


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## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

Ex-SRD said:


> I agree with alot of what Paul has said.
> 
> I dislike the term 'prep guy', although I have been referred to as one myself. I also dislike the ph**** 'doing your prep' or anything similar. I am merely a nutrition advisor who helps someone prepare for a show; a more cumbersome description maybe, but surely a more accurate one.
> 
> ...


That brings me nicely onto my next subject

Thanks for the link J:thumb:

Who would trust a "prep guy" that has never competed:whistling:


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## Robsta (Oct 2, 2005)

lmao.........p!ss taking mofo:lol:


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Ex-SRD said:


> I agree with alot of what Paul has said.
> 
> I dislike the term 'prep guy', although I have been referred to as one myself. I also dislike the ph**** 'doing your prep' or anything similar. I am merely a nutrition advisor who helps someone prepare for a show; a more cumbersome description maybe, but surely a more accurate one.
> 
> ...


Very nicely put.

I trust your nutritional perspective James.

If I was to compete, I would be in contact with you.........If you were not too expensive....lol


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## bigsteve1974 (Jun 4, 2008)

XJPX said:


> I have to disagree mate, I still am the one putting in the hard work with the 2 hours of cardio a day and making sur I stik soley to my diet without giving in to any cravings, granted an experienced eye helps tweak thins is advantageous but its jus like any sport.......people have coaches and traners or do u expect pro athletes of all disciplines to learn by trial and error??


thats exactly right...? we are the ones who put in the hours of cardio and the training...

there's nothing wrong with having someone who knows what they are doing watching over you and if you can afford it then no harm in that....

plus... im 6 weeks away from shiow and had a few issues with being ill etc and thats when its handy to have your "COACH" there to keep you focused and say the right words to you ... keeping you Motivated... :thumb:

steve


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## Ex-SRD (Sep 9, 2008)

weeman said:


> James,i have new found respect for you,only you could come up with a swear word that begins with ph lololol now what the hell is the bits behind the stars??:laugh:


LOL the word was 'phrase' - how the hell did that get filtered. I bet I typoed a-r-s-e!! LOL


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## Ex-SRD (Sep 9, 2008)

jw007 said:


> That brings me nicely onto my next subject
> 
> Thanks for the link J:thumb:
> 
> Who would trust a "prep guy" that has never competed:whistling:


I would if they were knowledgable. However, I have competed 3 times.


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## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

Ex-SRD said:


> I would if they were knowledgable. However, I have competed 3 times.


Pics or it never happened:thumbup1:


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## merve500 (Sep 10, 2008)

Id have to disagree with you on this jw007 i have been on a diet for a while now and am getting nearer,how ever i went to see a prep coach last monday wrote down all my supp,food and training as he asked he sat me down explained alot to me looked at my diet and was impressed,we then went to his gym where i went over some basic posing he said i surprised him with how i looked.he then told me to leave my diet with him,next day about 12 pm called me up and told me t add 150g of jacket potate to my last meals told me i was to depleted and for my weight wasnt eating enough carbs,explained how it mite help to put a little muscle on i mite have lost, also told me to change my cardio,not do so much,i felt 10x better for doing this.didnt charge me a peny for the first session and advice was given.hes a judge of the npa and a cmompetitor of the bnbf i learnt something new stopped me from making a big mistake,one day i woud love to help others jusst like this.


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

Merve i am not disputing this guys knowledge mate but anyone who is hard dieting is going to feel better if they reduce the cardio and add some carbs the question is are in the right condition at this time of your prep to ease up?? what show you doing??


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## carly (Mar 8, 2008)

I agree with alot of what Paul and James have said. I think everyone whats to do there best at what they do, and seeking guidance of knowledgable people in this sport isnt cheating is actually very clever, as you not only learn alot about the way of eating lifestyle, but all the up's and downs they have been through and trials and errors. What my coach and good friend Nicole said to me is, what I have learnt in the short time in competing , it has taken her 9 years.

Paul coached me through my first show and I truly wouldnt have been able to achieve what I ddi without him. why? because I didnt have a clue about anything and for years I have thought about competing, but just didnt know where to start. So I think the people who are here to want to help and sharel there knowledge and experiences are fantastic people and should get more positive feedback.

Bodybuilding is a hard sport and then when you are preparing for a competition it can really mess with your head. I think you need someone to be your mirrors and to guide you what to do etc food intake, less/more cardio as to be honest and im sure most are the same, the last few weeks you think you look terrible, but in reality the worse you feel about yourself the better your looking.

so I just want to say a HUGE thank you to all the people who take their time to help others because your all a very positive part to this sport and we need more positive people :thumb:


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## martin brown (Dec 31, 2008)

I think if you are going into competition (in any sport) blindly then your pretty foolish.

The first thing anyone should do when seeking to compete is get some help from someone who knows what they're doing. That's pretty common sense to me. Down at our gym the chief has spent thousands of hours preping people for comps over the last 7-8 years. It should be a team thing - you get help form those around you who support you.

Now paying for that service or hiring someone is a little different IMO.

People have had to start paying for advice down at our place simply due to the countless hours wasted with people who ignore all the prep work. Perhaps paying makes people listen better. Either way it takes the team work out of it IMO.


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## merve500 (Sep 10, 2008)

the mike williams classic 10/10/09 no paul i am totally with you on that one and my thoughts where "is this guy nuts!" but i did my research on the guy before i contacted him and he has a god track record.went to pick up his pump straps up for him from a guy he preped before,as he lives about half an hr from me, and his words where what he doesnt know isnt worth knowing,a few guys on here rate him,im off to seee him again tonite that post was basicaly just to say that prep guys are not cheating or rip offs and its a way to learn and help yourself srtop makiing mistakes,ive kept a book of everything ive doen in the diet to use again and improve on il let you know what he says tonite mate.this wil be my first show so just enjoying the experience.


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

carly said:


> Paul coached me through my first show and I truly wouldnt have been able to achieve what I ddi without him. why? because I didnt have a clue about anything and for years I have thought about competing, but just didnt know where to start.


you have gone and done it now how can i play my unbiased "carly will win" card now :thumb:



martin brown said:


> People have had to start paying for advice down at our place simply due to the countless hours wasted with people who ignore all the prep work. Perhaps paying makes people listen better. Either way it takes the team work out of it IMO.


this was the main reason i started charging last year.....



merve500 said:


> the mike williams classic 10/10/09 no paul i am totally with you on that one and my thoughts where "is this guy nuts!" but i did my research on the guy before i contacted him and he has a god track record.went to pick up his pump straps up for him from a guy he preped before,as he lives about half an hr from me, and his words where what he doesnt know isnt worth knowing,a few guys on here rate him,im off to seee him again tonite that post was basicaly just to say that prep guys are not cheating or rip offs and its a way to learn and help yourself srtop makiing mistakes,ive kept a book of everything ive doen in the diet to use again and improve on il let you know what he says tonite mate.this wil be my first show so just enjoying the experience.


Merve in no way am i slating this guys knowledge....good luck with the show mate is that a NPA show??


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## merve500 (Sep 10, 2008)

Merve in no way am i slating this guys knowledge....good luck with the show mate is that a NPA show??


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## Galtonator (Jul 21, 2004)

ona side not to this topic how far out would a "prep guy" want to be contatcted to help and athlete get ready for a show?


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

merve500 said:


> Merve in no way am i slating this guys knowledge....good luck with the show mate is that a NPA show??


no i know your not dude,yeh tis an npa one,can i ask for your opinion then?


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## merve500 (Sep 10, 2008)

Pscarb said:


> no i know your not dude,yeh tis an npa one,can i ask for your opinion then?


the trouble with this mate is then you get two different opinions which will only go towards messing with your head it is better for you to stick with one guy.....what class you doing? i have a guy in the NPA show on the 4th of October

will be the first timers and yeh i cant agree more and thats exacty why i wont change what hes said,just interested in what you thought to be honest. where is the one on the 4th as ive watched geared shows before but never been to watch a ntural one,was thinking of going to rugby this sunday.im a bit ****ed off i couldnt get to him soner really tho as i was hoping to do a bnbf show as they are under 23s but not to worry will eb loking to do the welsh next july.cant help what happens with work can you,im doing a personal trainers course in my spare time so hopefully will end up with something when im qualified.is your off season still going well?


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## wmc-direct (Oct 8, 2010)

hilly said:


> haha no need to read journal not a mention of high dose or stella i am on 250mg cruising magte not very exciting.
> 
> No1 from the uk mate i decided to go american and hire Phil Hernon.


How did you get on with Phil, im currently 5 days into training with him now and I have to say his methods are rather unusual


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## danny1871436114701 (May 2, 2010)

On an average how much would a prep guy cost for a first show etc, roughly


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## XJPX (Jan 10, 2009)

danny187 said:


> On an average how much would a prep guy cost for a first show etc, roughly


depends on the prep guy, their level of experience etc..... i am working with quite a few guys since have graduated this year and have a degree to my name....but at same time a degree doesnt compare i think to 20 years of tried and tested experience which some guys on here have and they rightly so can and will charge more then i do


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## hilly (Jan 19, 2008)

wmc-direct said:


> How did you get on with Phil, im currently 5 days into training with him now and I have to say his methods are rather unusual


learnt some useful stuff but stoped working with him after 4ish months due to disagreements on certain things


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## LittleChris (Jan 17, 2009)

Well have been getting some help past few months and am very pleased with my changes. Perhaps just the direction and not wanting to let somebody else down, but also a second opinion affiriming things., Works for me as I don't know anybody off this forum who is into BBing so need some guidance.


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## big_jim_87 (Jul 9, 2009)

me personally i would not use a prep guy for 1st few comps if i couldn't do it my self then i would bring some one in but i think you should do it your self 1st time or 2. i mean talk to ppl who comp, ask questions, read loads but at the end of the day make an educated decision and make your own mind up on what you should do. i thought bbing was a lonely sport. i dnt think its wrong to use a prep guy but maybe give it ago your self 1st time round?


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## XJPX (Jan 10, 2009)

hilly said:


> learnt some useful stuff but stoped working with him after 4ish months due to disagreements on certain things


haha we were promuscles most hated members for about 24 hours wen we started a war with hernon do u remeber mate haha...


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## SK-XO (Aug 6, 2009)

I can understand why people use people. I've personally done everything I've ever achieved body wise myself, learning my own body.... from when I went from 17.5 stone fat to 11 stone skinny to what I am now myself.

Not competed as of yet but if I compete next year I'll do it all myself tbh... Even not doing it right I'd rather know and learn from mistakes and what not.


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## wmc-direct (Oct 8, 2010)

hilly said:


> learnt some useful stuff but stoped working with him after 4ish months due to disagreements on certain things


Which were? Did you notice much of an improvement in your physique?


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## danny1871436114701 (May 2, 2010)

Jay Cutler has prep guys @), I think a prep guy would be good as they can help pass their expereince to you

So what is rough price £££


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

danny187 said:


> Jay Cutler has prep guys @), I think a prep guy would be good as they can help pass their expereince to you
> 
> So what is rough price £££


there is no rough price as it differs from person to person and how long they are working with you...


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## danny1871436114701 (May 2, 2010)

Pscarb said:


> there is no rough price as it differs from person to person and how long they are working with you...


Ok thanks, so if I decide to do a first show next year, would I just mail one of you guys do see how much it is etc,


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## hilly (Jan 19, 2008)

XJPX said:


> haha we were promuscles most hated members for about 24 hours wen we started a war with hernon do u remeber mate haha...


LMAO i remember pal, if you argue with phil its game over on their. I only said i didnt find much from the LBA's and that was it he started telling loadsa lies. dont think he expected me to still have all his emails tho :lol:


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## hilly (Jan 19, 2008)

wmc-direct said:


> Which were? Did you notice much of an improvement in your physique?


things between me and phil. I learnt alot from him. body changes yes but more health based than improvements wise.

however he said this was due to not being able to afford the bodybuilding lifestyle which was 8 tablespoons of lba's inbetween meals. around 13 quid every 2 days. well out of my budget


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## big_jim_87 (Jul 9, 2009)

hilly said:


> things between me and phil. I learnt alot from him. body changes yes but more health based than improvements wise.
> 
> however he said this was due to not being able to afford the bodybuilding lifestyle which was 8 tablespoons of *lba's* inbetween meals. around 13 quid every 2 days. well out of my budget


?????


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## wmc-direct (Oct 8, 2010)

hilly said:


> things between me and phil. I learnt alot from him. body changes yes but more health based than improvements wise.
> 
> however he said this was due to not being able to afford the bodybuilding lifestyle which was 8 tablespoons of lba's inbetween meals. around 13 quid every 2 days. well out of my budget


Haha he tried to get me to get LBA's, i told him straight theres no chance. The LBA's are probably good but as he makes them he is just trying to sell his product and make money!!

So your gains didn't really come then?


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## XJPX (Jan 10, 2009)

SK-XO said:


> I can understand why people use people. I've personally done everything I've ever achieved body wise myself, learning my own body.... from when I went from 17.5 stone fat to 11 stone skinny to what I am now myself.
> 
> Not competed as of yet but if I compete next year I'll do it all myself tbh... Even not doing it right I'd rather know and learn from mistakes and what not.


u say tht now mate but wen u get to two weeks out and u dnt kno which decision to make and want to look ur best onstage url go to someone for advice i bet u anythin, anyone can get down to 2 weeks out....but gettin onstage dry/full and peeled is v v v difficult without any previous experience.


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## hilly (Jan 19, 2008)

well they came at first but then stalled mate. then his suggestions were not ones i agreed with as to how we progressed. I think more food was needed as strength was going up but the size wasnt coming. he disagreed and thought other things should be increased instead


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## wmc-direct (Oct 8, 2010)

hilly said:


> well they came at first but then stalled mate. then his suggestions were not ones i agreed with as to how we progressed. I think more food was needed as strength was going up but the size wasnt coming. he disagreed and thought other things should be increased instead


I can only wait and see what happens then i suppose


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## hilly (Jan 19, 2008)

if you follow what he says i have no doubt you will make improvements. Like i say i wouldnt change what i did as in that 4 months i learnt how my body responded to certain foods but mainly i learnt that his particular way of training and hitting a bodypart more frequently but with less volume and starting heavy set first really works for me. i still incorporate this way not just with more rest and set out a little different.

again when i was getting niggly injuries and thought i needed more recovery time he suggested something else. it was just a different of opinions. he had an awesome physique and is a clever guy in alot of ways but he doesnt teach you anything just gives you orders to to speak and wont explain.

just expect 1 work or 1 sentance ansers and some red writing when you dont follow things lmao


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

hilly said:


> things between me and phil. I learnt alot from him. body changes yes but more health based than improvements wise.
> 
> however he said this was due to not being able to afford the bodybuilding lifestyle which was 8 tablespoons of lba's inbetween meals. around 13 quid every 2 days. well out of my budget


Hey Hilly, what are lba's?


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## LittleChris (Jan 17, 2009)

Liquid beef aminos.


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## Lois_Lane (Jul 21, 2009)

hackskii said:


> Hey Hilly, what are lba's?


 A rip off joke, lets just say i had the chance to buy them in bulk at a third of normal price and i declined....


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

danny187 said:


> Ok thanks, so if I decide to do a first show next year, would I just mail one of you guys do see how much it is etc,


yes mate that is the best thing to do....



XJPX said:


> u say tht now mate but wen u get to two weeks out and u dnt kno which decision to make and want to look ur best onstage url go to someone for advice i bet u anythin, anyone can get down to 2 weeks out....but gettin onstage dry/full and peeled is v v v difficult without any previous experience.


Amen to that buddy......


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Liquid beef aminos?

Sounds like they would taste really nice..................barf...........gag..........

Probaby be a hit with the friends when you talk to them too.

I can buy 5 pounds of raw beef dessicated liver powder for 70 bucks.

that is a deal and a half.

Considering 5 pounds of whey over there probably costs that much.

Now, for the record I do like the idea of dessicated liver, vince Giranda swore but it and if you are going to hammer a bunch, it might as well be raw, but the taste just kills me yet alone the smell.

My buddy takes a tablespoon and puts it in his mouth then chases it with water.

When he does that I get a gag responce and he does that crap on purpose.

probably would work though, very high in B-vitamins and a bunch of unknown growth factors.

I bought it here: http://www.leviticus11.com/dl.htm

But that was 3 years ago

Or call her here: 417-890-8636

Her name is Dianne Miller


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## Guest (Oct 13, 2010)

XJPX said:


> u say tht now mate but wen u get to two weeks out and u dnt kno which decision to make and want to look ur best onstage url go to someone for advice i bet u anythin, *anyone can get down to 2 weeks out....*but gettin onstage dry/full and peeled is v v v difficult without any previous experience.


imo anyone with half a brain should be able to get themselves into good condition (maybe not 2weeks but lean), but you would be suprised how many have no idea whatsoever, which imo is half the point of the sport.


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## hsmann87 (Jun 22, 2010)

jw007 said:


> Probably a controversial thread:whistling:
> 
> But here I sit reading the forums etc etc and it seems every wanna be amatuer Bodybuilder is hiring the services of a "Prep Guy"
> 
> ...


i dont see it as cheating, but its something i dont approve of from a personal point of view. if i had a prep coach and won a show for instance, i just wouldnt have the same satisfaction.

i would prefer to fall flat on my face and fvck up many a time and learn from my mistakes before i succeed...and if i dont reach the top, iw ould rather die trying than pay someone to pave my path for me... life's too easy otherwise 

plus ive got issues with paying for benefits anyway...would never pay for lessons, coaching, sex etc etc. just a personal policy i have


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## Guest (Oct 13, 2010)

didnt dorian yates have the best coach?


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## hsmann87 (Jun 22, 2010)

1russ100 said:


> didnt dorian yates have the best coach?


 he didnt have a coach. he didnt believe in coaches or "prep gurus"

he continually rips the **** out of them in his interviews now...but then he still makes a buck or two training people for MDTV nowadays lol


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## Guest (Oct 13, 2010)

hsmann87 said:


> *he didnt have a coach*. he didnt believe in coaches or "prep gurus"
> 
> he continually rips the **** out of them in his interviews now...but then he still makes a buck or two training people for MDTV nowadays lol


that was my point


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## hsmann87 (Jun 22, 2010)

1russ100 said:


> that was my point


 LOL.

here is the quote from his interview:

*[ **Q** ]* You cross me as being a strong individualist. What is your view on these so-called training gurus of today that many bodybuilders employ to help? Would you use one to get into shape?











I think it is such bullsh!t, but maybe that could be my Englishness coming through. Everything is always more complicated and fancy in the States. At least that's the way we see it. Everyone (in the States) goes to therapy and all that sh!t, whereas we would simply say, "[email protected] that, just get on with it." The thing that attracted me to bodybuilding in the first place was the fact it is an individual endeavor. 
I enjoyed working out the best way to train, studying nutrition and doing my own diet and learning all about every aspect of this. To me that was all part of the challenge and when I stepped onstage, although I had moral support, if I won it was down to me and if I lost it was down to me. No excuses. A lot of guys in bodybuilding unfortunately are so insecure and they just want to be held by the hand and have somebody tell them what to do. 
But I could never do that. It wouldn't matter how much I respected the person that was telling me, I would have to listen to the information, go away, assess it and ultimately make my own decision. If somebody said, "listen, this is what you have to eat and this is how you have to train and this is what you will have to take," I simply couldn't do that, whereas a lot of guys want somebody to hold their hand and tell them what to do all the time. 
I think nobody could ever know how well your body reacts as you do, if you really study it and keep records. It's your body and you are with it every day. How can some guy looking at your pictures over the internet tell you what to do with it? I'm not a big fan of gurus. I think it is bullsh!t.

Here is the full interview if anyone's interested. Very good read IMO:
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/dorian_yates_training_insight.htm


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## pflx (Jul 11, 2008)

just do it yourself, learn your body and improve from learning your body, tortoise and the hair!


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

hsmann87 said:


> he didnt have a coach. he didnt believe in coaches or "prep gurus"
> 
> he continually rips the **** out of them in his interviews now...but then he still makes a buck or two training people for MDTV nowadays lol


he did have kerry look over him on a regular basis though....and he does coach guys now so not sure why he is slating them....

guys unless you have been through a 12-16 week diet with the mental and physical ups and downs that brings you do not know if you would need or benefit from having a prep guy.....i coach people and most of my work is more settling their heads than diet and training....the key is finding what is best for that individual......i have a coach yet i know how to dial it in as i said it is more about the mental side and the outside eye that you trust......

dorian is one great champ but there are many many others who utilise prep coaches top 3 at this years Olympia all used them....

i have all ready said you don't NEED one to compete......but you dont know until you go through a proper pre-comp diet...


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## Guest (Oct 13, 2010)

Pscarb said:


> he did have kerry look over him on a regular basis though....and he does coach guys now so not sure why he is slating them....
> 
> guys unless you have been through a 12-16 week diet with the mental and physical ups and downs that brings you do not know if you would need or benefit from having a prep guy.....i coach people and most of my work is more settling their heads than diet and training....the key is finding what is best for that individual......i have a coach yet i know how to dial it in as i said it is more about the mental side and the outside eye that you trust......
> 
> ...


i agree with you as far as intermediate/advanced athletes. all sports now have teams of coaches etc behind them, but the team/ individual doing the sport has to be able to grasp the bare basics and ive as im sure you come across a fair few that cant in gyms


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## SD (Sep 3, 2004)

lba's eh? Sounds like Recov :laugh:

In fact if you read this forum thread, they make the same claims as Recov? http://www.professionalmuscle.com/forums/professional-muscle-forum/26683-liquid-beef-aminos.html

I think Tacoral is actually Phil Hernon 

SD


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## johnyboy (Jan 15, 2010)

i am very torn on this subject.i have just done the britain inter u80kg.it was only my second show.i have never had anyone prep me and have done all the resurch and diet myself.one of the questions most asked me coming up to the show was 'who has done your diet for you?'.when i told em no-one i have done it myself they look at you gone out loke your some kind af alian!

now although the diet went very well(all 15 weeks of it) i completely fked up in the last 3 days with the carb up and water drop.was absolutly to the bone after the 3rd day or depletion,starations everywhere.had everything wrote down in relation to recarbing then like a prat didnt stick to it and made several mistakes.without going into detail went on stage pretty flat and soft.still made top 10 but not a top 6 i was hoping for.

if id have walked on stage 3 days earlier i think i would have easily made a top 6.(thats no disrespect to the guys who placed above me on the day,the overall line up was very strong).

altghough i was happy with the place for a second show i was dissapointed i didnt nail the condition.

now with someone prepping me this just wouldnt have happened.but i feel i have learnt so my about my body and how it reacts throughout that diet that i cant wait to go again,i think i have enough knoledge now to really make a good show next time.if you just did what a prep guy told you,you just wouldnt learn anything.obviously i have everything documented for future referance.

prep guys...................not for me.but each to their own.i dont see it as cheating though cause even with someone guiding you through it you still have to go through it and no matter what theres just no easy way to do a contest diet. :thumb:


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## hilly (Jan 19, 2008)

i think it also depends on ure surroundings. some people are lucky enough and have knowledgable approachable guys who can give them a luck over and aid with diet etc.

for instance i no scott and tiny tom see each other regular and no tom has helped scott before. this is not getting preped but is very beneficial.

for me im the guy people ask about diets in my gym's lol and im nto experienced at all really so im stuck like that. Im lucky a friend of my dads who competes will take a luck but its a good drive away and not easy to arrange.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

I do think some guys that prep others and have stepped on stage can offer some advice for others.

I can remember one gent that decided to take lasex and had cramps so bad on stage he could not even pose, so he walked out.

If someone knew about prepping would have told him steer clear of lasix, he would have done better than last.

Some prep guys are really sharp and can see with another set of eyes, during some dieting I know guys that just lose it, a prep guy keeps you on the path.


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## Tinytom (Sep 16, 2005)

hilly said:


> i think it also depends on ure surroundings. some people are lucky enough and have knowledgable approachable guys who can give them a luck over and aid with diet etc.
> 
> for instance i no scott and tiny tom see each other regular and no tom has helped scott before. this is not getting preped but is very beneficial.
> 
> for me im the guy people ask about diets in my gym's lol and im nto experienced at all really so im stuck like that. Im lucky a friend of my dads who competes will take a luck but its a good drive away and not easy to arrange.


This is exactly right, I see Scott regularly and because of that I can see how things change him day to day so i can give him a good pointer if something is working. But he's very knowledgable and so anything we discuss would be more like bouncing ideas off for example 'try this or that' rather than 'do this or that'

And when he does the competitions next year he will be prepping himself but of course i will be on hand if he needs any pointers or an educated eye to look over him.

However I will agree with Paul that you can be the most knowledgable person in the world and your head can still go contest time and so you need someone to take that stress away.

Thats why Paul gets advice from someone and why I consult Paul now. Sometimes you need someone else to guide you who has similar or more advanced knowledge.

And no offence to Scott but when he's 2 weeks away from the show and worrying over stupid things I will link him back to this post.

You do weird and stupid things when close to a show


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