# Starting strength routine not producing desired results



## MidsGuy21 (Mar 25, 2013)

I've been doing a variation of starting strength for some time now, and although my lifts are going up, physically i look pretty much the same with slightly bigger legs and shoulders.

I only went with it because of the whole, 'you need to build a base of strength before moving to hypertrophy routines'. But i think this is just bro science. Went online reading and came across this article:

http://skinnyfattransformation.com/why-you-shouldnt-do-starting-strength-as-a-beginner/

And a thread he posted in:

Here are my SS "physique gains":










And here are my changes in bodyweight and strength between pic 1 and 2 (I maintained all the strength when cutting for my 2 year "progress picture"):










Pic 1: 7 months into SS -- 200lbs. -- no physical change since beginning lifting despite gaining strength and eating a high protein diet, maintaining my weight.

Pic 2: 12 months into SS/Madcow 5x5 -- 235lbs. -- since maintaining my weight didn't work I decided to bulk. I first started with a slight caloric surplus but couldn't progress on my lifts, so I upped the caloric surplus and made massive strength gains on my deadlift (something like 25lbs. per workout for a month). Unfortunately, I got fat from this.

Pic 3: After cutting the excess bodyweight I was a lot stronger than before, but my body didn't look any better. I just had slightly bigger traps, legs and glutes. That was about it. I actually think I looked worse here because my body looked so disproportionate with a big squat ass and thighs that couldn't fit into any normal jeans.

Does that mean SS is bad? Yes and no.

Yes because I believe that the strength I gained helped me make faster gains once I started a bodybuilding program.

However, I also believe that there are much better programs out there than SS.

The only reason to why people believe SS is a good program is because they made decent progress on it, but most of these people would have made decent progress on pretty much any program out there.

Also, if you look at the crazy amount of injuries on that program, you will see how imbalanced it is: http://startingstrength.com/resources/forum/forum157/?

Over 1600 injury threads in 5 years = about 1 injury thread per day on average... Probably more now as the forum has grown over the years and people have been practicing the principles for a longer time.

I currently look like his 2 year progress pic but with a little less fat and a little more mass. I started bulking with a slightly better base than him.

My stats as of now are:


5ft 11
12 stone 3
18% BF

Lifts:


Deadlift 105kg 3x5
Bench 85kg 3x5
BB press 55kg 3x5
Pendlay row 75kg 3x8
Squat 95kg 3x5
Pulldowns 85kg 3x8

I started a cut yesterday in an attempt to drop down to 11 stone, i think having a higher bf% screws up nutrient partitioning making muscle growth harder, and i dont want to jump into a hypertrophy routine with a high bf%.

So my goal now is to cut whilst maintaining my strength based routine and progressing on lifts then move to a hypertrophy routine mixed with some strength exercises. Something like a PHAT routine:


Day 1: Upper Body Power
Day 2: Lower Body Power
Day 3: Rest
Day 4: Back and Shoulders Hypertrophy
Day 5: Lower Body Hypertrophy
Day 6: Chest and Arms Hypertrophy
Day 7: Rest

How does this plan sound? And can anyone recommend a good PHAT routine for me to start with. Thanks


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## MidsGuy21 (Mar 25, 2013)

MidsGuy21 said:


> I've been doing a variation of starting strength for some time now, and although my lifts are going up, physically i look pretty much the same with slightly bigger legs and shoulders.
> 
> I only went with it because of the whole, 'you need to build a base of strength before moving to hypertrophy routines'. But i think this is just bro science. Went online reading and came across this article:
> 
> ...


But his lifts more than doubled.


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## nWo (Mar 25, 2014)

I swear you posted this thread before :lol:

http://forums.lylemcdonald.com/showthread.php?t=1696


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## ILLBehaviour (Dec 20, 2014)

If his aims were to be lean and he didnt care about lifting heavy weights (which is what he states) then it makes no sense why he spent 2 years on a strength routine and eating in a calorific surplus.

I'd say the guy has no clue and i'd probably disregard anything he says.


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## Kristina (Apr 12, 2014)

The 'problem' (and I use this term loosely because it depends on what the person wants to achieve with a program and how the person conducts their training AND diet to achieve said goals) comes down to the diet. When training as a beginner and choosing the SS protocol, you would have had no issue building muscle and losing fat throughout the first couple of years or so; essentially a 're-comp' would have been very successful if the diet had been manipulated accordingly. If you decided to train SS and eat in a caloric surplus, of course there would be no surprise that your body composition will maintain roughly the same BF%. If you had eaten at maintenance or even at a modest deficit, you would have had no problem in making the same strength gains as well as built the lean mass without needing to be in a surplus, subsequently achieving more aesthetic results. Being at the level of BF% you are, you wouldn't have jeopardised your progress in either objectives because fat in itself is so muscle sparing.

I have personally re-comped on SS and have worked with clients who have used the program effectively to achieve both strength and aesthetic goals. The integral variable factor that comes into play is the diet plan as it evolves with your training and progress. That's easier for some than for others, granted, but it's not the program itself that limits your potential. Just my two cents.


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## The-Real-Deal (Dec 5, 2014)

Go basic.....

I personally would adopt a full body workout in the 3 sets of 8 range for both strength and growth concentrating on compound exercises. At this stage as long as you eat healthy whole foods at maintenance (listen to your body). Training will make your appetite increase. You will see good gains and a good change in body composition. Hit the gym 2 if not 3 times per week depending on recovery.

1) BB Squats = Erector Spinae, Gluts, Hamstrings, Quads, Rectus Abdominus.

2) BB calf raises = Calf (Flexor Digitorum Longus/Flexor Hallucis Longus, Peroneus Muscles, plantaris, tibialis posterior).

3) BB Bench press (Flat or slight decline) Mainly pectoral major however shoulders, abs, traps, tris and bi's do get worked.

4) BB Bench press (Incline) Mainly pectoral minor (also same as above).

5) Wide grip pull ups/chins (Pronated grip) Lats, Rhomboids. (or lat pull down)

6) DB bend over rows = latissimus dorsi, Rhomboids, Lower traps, Erector spinae, Stabilization from the rotator cuff.

7) DB seated shoulder press = All three heads of the deltoids to varying degrees (form dependent), also Upper traps, tri's, Abs.

8) BB or DB Shrug's = Upper trapezius, levator scapulae, (Stabilizers) Rotator cuff muscles and the erector spinae.

9) Triceps push down = Triceps, Long, lateral, medial.

10) DB overhead extension= Tri, Long, lat, med.

11) Ez Bar curls heavy = Biceps

12) DB concentration curls = biceps (pro to supinate.

Beast yourself for a min of six months and you will see a difference both in size and strength / BF%


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## Dark sim (May 18, 2013)

Natty Steve'o said:


> Go basic.....
> 
> I personally would adopt a full body workout in the 3 sets of 8 range for both strength and growth concentrating on compound exercises. At this stage as long as you eat healthy whole foods at maintenance (listen to your body). Training will make your appetite increase. You will see good gains and a good change in body composition. Hit the gym 2 if not 3 times per week depending on recovery.
> 
> ...


Where did you find this routine?


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## FuqOutDaWhey (Apr 29, 2015)

> Where did you find this routine?


eGuru.com


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## The-Real-Deal (Dec 5, 2014)

> Where did you find this routine?


Why? Whats your opinion?


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## Dark sim (May 18, 2013)

Natty Steve'o said:


> Why? Whats your opinion?


Why, because I've never seen anything like it. Too much volume in one workout imo.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

I personally don't think 3x5 or 5x5 training is a good long term strategy for someone whose main focus is hypertrophy, but I do think it is an excellent way to start (for 2-3 months). This period allows someone to learn and get stronger at the basic lifts, which is important. After that I think training with a mix of more higher rep work as well as continuing to do strength work makes sense.

I would suggest the OP tries sticking with whole body training, but uses a mix of rep ranges, not just 5 rep sets. Actual PHAT is far too advanced (and therefore not optimal) and a lower volume alternative will probably be less effective at this stage due to the lower training frequency. It is a very sensible alternative to consider though.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

The major limitation to sticking to 3x5 is the limited training volume. The following video makes things all sound rather simpler than they are I think, but it explains the concept of volume which definitely is an important factor.






Edit: sorry, Tapatalk doesn't seem to cope with links now, but a copy and paste will get you there.


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## FuqOutDaWhey (Apr 29, 2015)

> The major limitation to sticking to 3x5 is the limited training volume. The following video makes things all sound rather simpler than they are I think, but it explains the concept of volume which definitely is an important factor.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Another tapa bug? :huh:


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

> Another tapa bug? :huh:


Tapatalk doesn't use html code, and my guess at what this might be clearly wasn't right (and doing it manually is a faff anyway!)


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## lewis1993 (Apr 29, 2013)

This guy must of ****ed something up because two years strength training and he can only deadlift 160kg at over 100kg !! I compete in powerlifting so I do my main 3 for low reps and maybe some accessory work then accessory muscles for hypertrophy in the 8+ rep range, also do strongman style event training as my "cardio" and to hit the muscles I worked in a different way


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## The-Real-Deal (Dec 5, 2014)

> Why, because I've never seen anything like it. Too much volume in one workout imo.


On the contrary, each muscle group is hit in the correct rep range with the right amount of volume witch falls in line with the OP's requirements. Granted it is hard work and will tax the system as a whole. This itself will promote growth along with a change in body composition.

Its a pretty basic full body routine built around compounds. One lighter warm up set then two heavyish working sets around the 70 - 80% of one rep max.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

> On the contrary, each muscle group is hit in the correct rep range with the right amount of volume witch falls in line with the OP's requirements. Granted it is hard work and will tax the system as a whole. This itself will promote growth along with a change in body composition.
> 
> Its a pretty basic full body routine built around compounds. One lighter warm up set then two heavyish working sets around the 70 - 80% of one rep max.


If someone could handle it then it would be great, but I'll be honest and say it would definitely be too much volume for me. It is also significantly higher volume than any whole body routine I've seen proposed for a natural lifter before.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Actually, hang on, did you just reduce the volume by a third by now saying 2x8 rather than 3x8?


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## The-Real-Deal (Dec 5, 2014)

> Actually, hang on, did you just reduce the volume by a third by now saying 2x8 rather than 3x8?


No....

You can't go balls out on your first set when cold. Its still 3 sets of 8 though, Ive never had a problem with it when I used it. Its all about putting the graft in.


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## Dark sim (May 18, 2013)

Natty Steve'o said:


> On the contrary, each muscle group is hit in the correct rep range with the right amount of volume witch falls in line with the OP's requirements. Granted it is hard work and will tax the system as a whole. This itself will promote growth along with a change in body composition.
> 
> Its a pretty basic full body routine built around compounds. One lighter warm up set then two heavyish working sets around the 70 - 80% of one rep max.


My comments are not related to rep range, they are to do with sheer volume, which is OTT, and that is being polite. Can you provide me any link, to any website promoting this volume for full body workouts? It is like no full body workout I have ever seen.


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## The-Real-Deal (Dec 5, 2014)

> My comments are not related to rep range, they are to do with sheer volume, which is OTT, and that is being polite. Can you provide me any link, to any website promoting this volume for full body workouts? It is like no full body workout I have ever seen.


No, why would I....


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

> No....
> 
> You can't go balls out on your first set when cold. Its still 3 sets of 8 though, Ive never had a problem with it when I used it. Its all about putting the graft in.


That's not what 3x8 means to me. I'd only ever talk about working sets. The other confusion here is you said 2 or 3 times per week. The difference between a proper 3x8 three times per week and 2x8 twice per week huge...


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## The-Real-Deal (Dec 5, 2014)

> My comments are not related to rep range, they are to do with sheer volume, which is OTT, and that is being polite. Can you provide me any link, to any website promoting this volume for full body workouts? It is like no full body workout I have ever seen.


There's a lot less volume than you advocated a woman doing for just legs......


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## Dark sim (May 18, 2013)

Natty Steve'o said:


> No, why would I....


Cos you pulled it out your ar$e and it is clear to see


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## Dark sim (May 18, 2013)

Natty Steve'o said:


> There's a lot less volume than you advocated a woman doing for just legs......


No it isn't lol. On the back foot so gets all defensive, bless. Steve'o lets be clear, I can get girls in contest shape, but we are not talking about females here are we...


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## The-Real-Deal (Dec 5, 2014)

> That's not what 3x8 means to me. I'd only ever talk about working sets. The other confusion here is you said 2 or 3 times per week. The difference between a proper 3x8 three times per week and 2x8 twice per week huge...


Again its person specific. I used to do this twice a week. Others younger might be able to handle 3x depending on recovery. When training nothing is set in stone as your body will dictate what works for you.


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## The-Real-Deal (Dec 5, 2014)

> No it isn't lol. On the back foot so gets all defensive, bless. Steve'o lets be clear, I can get girls in contest shape, but we are not talking about females here are we...


Yeah get them into contest shape in off season LOL Ya mad young -un


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## The-Real-Deal (Dec 5, 2014)

> Cos you pulled it out your ar$e and it is clear to see


Pulled what out of my arse?


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## Dark sim (May 18, 2013)

Natty Steve'o said:


> There's a lot less volume than you advocated a woman doing for just legs......


Here is a new partial routine which I have recently done for someone, not exactly comparable to your advice is it

QUADS
10 mins on bike high tension
Leg extension 3x20 last set 3 drops to failure. Then 60 sec iso-tension hold.
Seated Hamstring curl 3x15
Back Squat 5x5 heavy
Single Leg press - 3x6 each side
Bulgarian split squat jumps - 3x15 each side S/S Side lunges 3x15 each side

SHOULDERS/BICEPS
Rear delt cable 3x15
Cleans 12, 10, 8, 6
Smith press 4x8
Partial side raises 4x15
Six way raise 3x8

Barbell curl 5x10
Seated cable curl work up to a tough 6 in small increments then back down
Hammer curl 3x20 curl arm to chest, one arm at a time

Glutes
Seated Hamstring curl 15, 12, 7, 7, last set 3 drops to failure
Wide toes out Squat 4x12
Low cable deadlift (pulse at bottom of rep) s/s Cable SL deadlift 4x12
Tri set
Courtsey squat 3x20
Glute Bridge 3x20
Reverse glute ham raise (squeeze glues hard)) 3x20



Natty Steve'o said:


> Pulled what out of my arse?


That full body workout.


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## Dark sim (May 18, 2013)

Natty Steve'o said:


> Yeah get them into contest shape in off season LOL Ya mad young -un


Why do you get so confused lol?


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## The-Real-Deal (Dec 5, 2014)

> Here is a new partial routine which I have recently done for someone, not exactly comparable to your advice is it
> 
> QUADS
> 10 mins on bike high tension
> ...


Fork me and you said mine had to much volume ........PMSL


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## The-Real-Deal (Dec 5, 2014)

> Why do you get so confused lol?


Because its what you said.....contradicting your own posts....


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## Dark sim (May 18, 2013)

Natty Steve'o said:


> Fork me and you said mine had to much volume ........PMSL


Thats 3 days, oh jesus. Maybe stick to reading Saga.


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## The-Real-Deal (Dec 5, 2014)

> Thats 3 days, oh jesus. Maybe stick to reading Saga.


Whats 3 days????


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## Dark sim (May 18, 2013)

Natty Steve'o said:


> Whats 3 days????


Oh man. What I posted is 3 seperate days, Quads on a monday, Shoulders/Bis on a tuesday, then Glutes on a wednesday.


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## Dark sim (May 18, 2013)

Natty Steve'o said:


> Because its what you said.....contradicting your own posts....


I've not said anything about off season in this thread??? It was a statement.

If you want to talk about another thread, post in that thread.


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## The-Real-Deal (Dec 5, 2014)

> Oh man. What I posted is 3 seperate days, Quads on a monday, Shoulders/Bis on a tuesday, then Glutes on a wednesday.


Its not what you posted though is it? In reality what you posted is a split...... If you want to advise a split for the OP then that is your prerogative. However I feel the lad needs to get the basics correct first with simple compounds on a full body routine 2 or maybe 3 times a week. The guy is not advanced enough to do what you suggest at this point. This is only my humble natty opinion though.


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## The-Real-Deal (Dec 5, 2014)

> I've not said anything about off season in this thread??? It was a statement.
> 
> If you want to talk about another thread, post in that thread.


LOL , dont tell me what to do. I'll post what and where I see fit.

Yes it was referring to the other thread where I have already pointed out your contradiction.


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## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

Dark sim said:


> Why, because I've never seen anything like it. Too much volume in one workout imo.


I do 10 moves on chest/back/shoulders day


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## Dark sim (May 18, 2013)

Natty Steve'o said:


> Its not what you posted though is it? In reality what you posted is a split...... If you want to advise a split for the OP then that is your prerogative. However I feel the lad needs to get the basics correct first with simple compounds on a full body routine 2 or maybe 3 times a week. The guy is not advanced enough to do what you suggest at this point. This is only my humble natty opinion though.


I am by no means advising OP to do my female orientated routines, they were mere proof that they were less volume that you advocated.

OP does need to do basic lifts but needs to have less volume if he doing mostly compounds, as they are more taxing on the body. I will advise OP in a separate post.

Oh and for the record I wouldn't like to attempt your suggested full body workout, and I am assisted and an advanced lifter. I could do it 3 times a week but not sure for how long.


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## The-Real-Deal (Dec 5, 2014)

> I am by no means advising OP to do my female orientated routines, they were mere proof that they were less volume that you advocated.
> 
> OP does need to do basic lifts but needs to have less volume if he doing mostly compounds, as they are more taxing on the body. I will advise OP in a separate post.
> 
> Oh and for the record I wouldn't like to attempt your suggested full body workout, and I am assisted and an advanced lifter. I could do it 3 times a week but not sure for how long.


Pussy


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## Dark sim (May 18, 2013)

Natty Steve'o said:


> LOL , dont tell me what to do. I'll post what and where I see fit.
> 
> Yes it was referring to the other thread where I have already pointed out your contradiction.


FFS you absolute tw4t lol. I deal with off season and contest prep. What is it with your confusion?


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## Dark sim (May 18, 2013)

FelonE said:


> I do 10 moves on chest/back/shoulders day


Captain bust-a-move show me what you can do...


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## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

Dark sim said:


> Captain bust-a-move show me what you can do...


You're not ready just yet


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## Dark sim (May 18, 2013)

MidsGuy21 said:


> I've been doing a variation of starting strength for some time now, and although my lifts are going up, physically i look pretty much the same with slightly bigger legs and shoulders.
> 
> I only went with it because of the whole, 'you need to build a base of strength before moving to hypertrophy routines'. But i think this is just bro science. Went online reading and came across this article:
> 
> ...


Right without the correct diet set up, you will not make progress. So maybe start another thread and we can check that out.

I suggest an upper/lower split, U1 and L1 will be lower rep days (4-7), then U2 and L2, will be higher rep days (8-15).


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## The-Real-Deal (Dec 5, 2014)

Legs 3sets of 8 squats = 24 reps

3 sets of 8 calf raises = 24 reps Legs done

3 sets of 8 reps bench press =24 reps

3 sets of 8 reps incline bp = 24 reps chest done

24 chins or lat pul downs

24 rows

24 shoulder press

24 shrugs

48 tri

48 bi

Time to go 45mins to 1hr max If your not waiting on oxygen thieves using your next bit of kit

To much volume LOL


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## Dark sim (May 18, 2013)

Natty Steve'o said:


> Legs 3sets of 8 squats = 24 reps
> 
> 3 sets of 8 calf raises = 24 reps Legs done
> 
> ...


Too much volume still lol

Go find me another full body workout on internet that looks like that, you won't cos you made it up and no one else will advocate such lunacy.

This isn't a strength routine if you can get that done in 45 mins. You are why the internet is dangerous place for advice.


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## The-Real-Deal (Dec 5, 2014)

> Too much volume still lol
> 
> Go find me another full body workout on internet that looks like that, you won't cos you made it up and no one else will advocate such lunacy.
> 
> *This isn't a strength routine if you can get that done in 45 mins. You are why the internet is dangerous place for advice.*


I agree so lets go look on the internet for a routine......FFS.. SHEEP or what.

This is my own routine which I used staring out for many years. I still use it from time to time when not doing MY split. I will be doing this tomorrow instead of my split due to work commitments this week.

I'm natty and bench in the region of 140kg 3 sets of 8.110kg incline etc, so far from p1ss weak. I add extra volume to this routine as and when it feels right, or I feel I need to hit the muscle harder. My current routine is in my log.http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/topic/244686-natty-stevos-big-bio-mechanically-induced-growth-tracker/ Granted my split has even more volume. However this works for me.

Yes it is doable within the timescale I have said.


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## FuqOutDaWhey (Apr 29, 2015)

> I agree so lets go look on the internet for a routine......FFS.. SHEEP or what.
> 
> This is my own routine which I used staring out for many years. I still use it from time to time when not doing MY split. I will be doing this tomorrow instead of my split due to work commitments this week.
> 
> ...


Have you ever uploaded a bench press vid?


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## The-Real-Deal (Dec 5, 2014)

> Have you ever uploaded a bench press vid?


Yes :thumbup1:


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## FuqOutDaWhey (Apr 29, 2015)

> Yes


Link?


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## The-Real-Deal (Dec 5, 2014)

It was 5 or 6 months ago

Ill see if i still have it


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