# Natural trainers - Working muscles once or twice a week?



## Rekless

Lyle McDonald is a great advocate of natural trainers working each muscle twice a week or once every 5 days (article below)

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-gain/training-frequency-for-mass-gains.html

Layne Norton also believes this theory, and advises working muscles twice a week in his PHAT program.

What are everyone's views on this?


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## paul81

i'd say the usual rule applies to this one. listen to your body.

i for one train chest/triceps twice a week as i feel they are lacking at the moment, but they get a few days rest in between so feel fine when i get to work at them again.

if you feel fine working it, then work it


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## Maturemuscle

At the moment I have no body parts lagging so I am doing a three day a week full body workout, two exercises per body part with a cardio day in between as I want to cut body fat. But I followed the Lyle McDonald recommendations when I was trying to add more muscle over the winter months. It worked well for me and my body seemed to like the extra time to recover and grow. I will use that scheme again in the future as it worked very well for me and I was pleased with the results.


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## dtlv

Each bodypart twice a week for limited volume and not quite to failure seems to be about the best bodybuilding style of training for me.

Because when I train this way I keep volume low it's difficult to specialise on a specific bodypart, but most areas of my body seem to grow best anyway this way.

Ultimate advice is always though to listen to your body and do what works for you, not what works best for me or any other individual.


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## IrishRaver

I work a body part per day 5 days in a row (neglect legs) with a 2 day rest period at the weekend. It's definitely all about learning how your body responds to training though, I noticed better gains from slightly higher reps and less sets.

This style of training I do atm keeps the motivation burning at peek temp throughout the week as I'm always looking forward to getting out of work and getting stuck in and hammering whatever muscle it is that day 

I try to get 10+ hours sleep in at the weekends too and I would highly advocate that in your rest days!

...still out of action atm tho, wrist injury is keeping me from lifting and work. Think I'm going to see a specialist tomorrow about it :/


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## Guest

I read something on muscle and fitness about evey 2nd day you could train each muscle group untel you reach over train they say it would happen around the 4 week Mark then you would rest for a week and do it again and so on haven't tried it but looking to give it a shot


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## Aggression

I do

tues - chest/delts/tri's

thurs - back/bi's/traps

sat - legs

sun - chest/delts/tri's

tues - back/bi's/traps

and so on...

I'm cutting, doing cardio a.m on training days and a.m/pm on off days (never after training as i like to get my shake and meal in asap, with carbs). My strength has maintained and sometimes i'm hitting pr's, even though i've dropped 12lbs & most of the BF i wanted. So even with cardio and restricted carbs it can be done. Just keep your diet on spot and get sufficient sleep.


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## MarkFranco

Training twice a week is nothing new, just recycled old way of training, much like EVERYTHING in bodybuilding today, actually was reading an article few months back about how this way of training is soon going to make a comeback and be the "new" way to train.

I cant see the benefit of a natural trainer, training a body part more than unnatural, seem so some one on aas is more ikely to recover quicker and be able to train better this way.

But with that said, If you dont train to failure, training a bodypart twice a week isnt a problem imo


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## ausbuilt

wow, thats a lot; I'm on AAS and it train each body part once per week when bulking- in fact whole body mon/wed/fri; when dieting i split it up and train each part twice per week- simply to burn more cals; I don't expect to grow more muscle in this phase...


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## hsmann87

once every 8 days for me


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## Rekless

Yeah an upper and lower hypertrophy day and a uppy and lower power day.


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## Andrew Jacks

I personally find the bigger and older I get the longer I need to recover. Beginners and teens twice a week us older bigger guys once a week. You also have to take into account if you are cutting your body needs more rest so be open minded as to rest intervals and be prepared to experiment to find the sweet spot, personally I think using a week as timetable is generally poor unless your lifestyle requires such an odd numbered regime


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## LukeV

This is pretty similar to what I'm doing right now, I never completely blast a muscle so I can train it twice a week. I've definitely noticed big strength increases over the past 6 months since changing from the standard split training. But I know people who respond better to typical body building splits, everyone is different.


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## BigAggs

Everyone's different mate, but for me training every muscle twice week is the only way to get my body to grow. Upper and lower strength days, rest, and upper and lower hypertrophy days and two off.


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## r_richson

ive done 2 times a week before, but fatigue mentally after 2 weeks or so and its not enjoyable to carry on. I like to train intensly 1 per week for bodyparts except 10-12 days for pressing, as many people have said its down to the person


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## Glassback

At the moment I hit the big compound exercises 3 times a week. Not sure this will help me growth wise but its certainly helping strength wise.


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## Bish83

ausbuilt said:


> wow, thats a lot; I'm on AAS and it train each body part once per week when bulking- in fact whole body mon/wed/fri; when dieting i split it up and train each part twice per week- simply to burn more cals; I don't expect to grow more muscle in this phase...


Mate i really gotta know what your lifts are.

How many cals will you be burning doing an extra few more sets over the norm, i dont think it will be that much.

To the op, going back to training the muscle after sufficient time for recovery is the optimal be it natty or otherwise. For instance a guy thats hit his genetic potential of +500kg squat i cant see him hitting the rack twice a week doing those numbers but for a guy lifting a puny 100kg could hammer it thrice times a week no trouble.


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## shinobi_85

twice is too much


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## musio

Mixing it up and keep the body guessing works best for me.

Saying that, I work once a week and throw in the occasional twice a week and follow with a lighter week after.

Body adaptation is smart so always trying to keep it on it's toes


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## Rekless

I quite like the idea of having a Power day and a Hypertrophy day each week. So Monday have an Upper Power day (all compounds 5x5 to near faliure) Tue Lower Power day then Thursday upper Hypertrophy day (more isolations, lighter weights and lifts in the 10-12 rep range) Friday lower Hypertrophy, Sat and Sun rest and repeat.

This is how Layne's PHAT routine is laid out. He says himself not to follow it to the tee and tailor it to yourself as he has quite a bit of volume in there and has his over 5 days.


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## 1Tonne

hsmann87 said:


> once every 8 days for me


Once every 9 for me.


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## LukeV

Rekless said:


> I quite like the idea of having a Power day and a Hypertrophy day each week. So Monday have an Upper Power day (all compounds 5x5 to near faliure) Tue Lower Power day then Thursday upper Hypertrophy day (more isolations, lighter weights and lifts in the 10-12 rep range) Friday lower Hypertrophy, Sat and Sun rest and repeat.
> 
> This is how Layne's PHAT routine is laid out. He says himself not to follow it to the tee and tailor it to yourself as he has quite a bit of volume in there and has his over 5 days.


Exactly the same as what I'm doing, works a treat for me. When I start feeling run down after X amount of weeks ill do a week where I hit everything once a week with moderate volume. That way I get a full 7 days rest per muscle, then I can go back on to PHAT training feeling a bit fresher.


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## MarkFranco

Rekless said:


> I quite like the idea of having a Power day and a Hypertrophy day each week. So Monday have an Upper Power day (all compounds 5x5 to near faliure) Tue Lower Power day then Thursday upper Hypertrophy day (more isolations, lighter weights and lifts in the 10-12 rep range) Friday lower Hypertrophy, Sat and Sun rest and repeat.
> 
> This is how Layne's PHAT routine is laid out. He says himself not to follow it to the tee and tailor it to yourself as he has quite a bit of volume in there and has his over 5 days.


Or you could just do westside which is a similar principle but works alot better


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## martin brown

Bish83 said:


> To the op, going back to training the muscle after sufficient time for recovery is the optimal be it natty or otherwise. *For instance a guy thats hit his genetic potential of +500kg squat i cant see him hitting the rack twice a week doing those numbers *but for a guy lifting a puny 100kg could hammer it thrice times a week no trouble.


You couldn't be more wrong  Most of the world's biggest squatters squat twice a week, with some squatting more than twice per week.

This whole once per week is BS for most people. Everyone can train more often than once per week - you just gotta adjust the training accordingly.


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## Rekless

MarkFranco said:


> Or you could just do westside which is a similar principle but works alot better


It is slightly diffrenent.

The only thing i think about DC is that you can not get stronger forever, so once you get to a certain weight and can not get above it you have stalled and i'm guessing the gains will too.

At least with the power/hypertrophy route i can use things like volume and frequency to progress my workouts when i get stuck on a weight


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## Bish83

martin brown said:


> You couldn't be more wrong  Most of the world's biggest squatters squat twice a week, with some squatting more than twice per week.
> 
> This whole once per week is BS for most people. Everyone can train more often than once per week - you just gotta adjust the training accordingly.


Well i stand corrected then and hitting your genetic max twice a week is possible after all.


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## Rekless

*Upper Power*

Millitary press 3x5

Decline bench 3x5

Rows 3 x5

Wide Pull ups 3 x5

BB Curls 3x5

CGBP 3x5

*Lower Power*

Leg press 3x5

Squats 3x5

Leg extension 3x5

Calf Raises 3X10

cable crunches 2X30

Leg raises 2X30

*chest/shoulder/tri hypertrophy*

Hammer press 3x 8-12

crossovers 3x 8-12

Db shoulder Press 3x 8-12

Lat raises 3x 8-12

CGBP 3x 8-12

Dips or pushdown 3x 8-12

*leg/back/bi hypertrophy*

Legpress 3x 8-12

Leg extension 3x 8-12

Pulldown 3x 8-12

Dealift 3x 8-12

Bicep curls 3x 8-12

pull ups

This is my new plan.

Will let everyone know how it goes


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## MarkFranco

Looks ****, I dont see where the "power" is in that lower bodyworkout apart from squats

And still in the rep and set range imo isnt ideal for "power", thats why wetside works better with its Dynamic days for producing "speed strength"


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## Rekless

Ok when i say power i mean strength.

I could make them 5x5 but i figured if i'm going to be hitting everything twice a week 3x5 would be best for a few weeks to gauge recovery.

The hypertrophy days are done at speed 1-2 seconds up 1-2 seconds down an rest times are limited to 60 seconds


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## dtlv

I like heavy/light upper/lower splits (not quite the same as power/hypertrophy split but similar) but prefer to use the same exercises on each day, only adjusting the loading and reps. Something simple like this:

*Upper*

Powercleans

Incline Press

Bentover Row

Weighted Dips

Weighted Chins

OH Press

*Lower*

Squats

Romanian Deadlifts

Bulgarian Split Squats

Leg Curls

Calf Raises

Crunches

After warmup, sets and reps would be 2x12-15 or 3x10 on the light day, and 6x4 or 4x6 on the heavy day.


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## MarkFranco

Still, if your having a strength day and a hypertrophy day, I would have the excersies in the strength day to be better movements.

Leg raises, extentions and calf raises out.

Box squats, front squats, power cleans, clean and jerk, push presses in


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## dtlv

MarkFranco said:


> Still, if your having a strength day and a hypertrophy day, I would have the excersies in the strength day to be better movements.
> 
> Leg raises, extentions and calf raises out.
> 
> Box squats, front squats, power cleans, clean and jerk, push presses in


Yes I agree - if the split is hypertrophy/strength then exercises to fit each form of training. The heavy/light variant is a slightly different idea based around recruiting different muscle fibre units for the same exercises in each workout, and not thought of as strength and hypertrophy workouts.


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## Rekless

Dtlv74 said:


> Yes I agree - if the split is hypertrophy/strength then exercises to fit each form of training. The heavy/light variant is a slightly different idea based around recruiting different muscle fibre units for the same exercises in each workout, and not thought of as strength and hypertrophy workouts.


Yeah this was my basic idea, Heavy compounds for upper and lower then lighter compounds and isolations for hypertrophy

Lower heavy will look more like this

Squats

Front squat

SLDL

Standing calf raises

Ab work.


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## kernowgee

In real terms you need the minimum of three routines for a complete cycle and three days rest for each muscle group thus it is impossible to do two complete cycles within one week due to upper body crossover, science shows alternative days is the best way of working naturally, the best way to proceed is to move from a 4 day split to a six, giving three on and three off


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## Rekless

kernowgee said:


> In real terms you need the minimum of three routines for a complete cycle and three days rest for each muscle group thus it is impossible to do two complete cycles within one week due to upper body crossover, science shows alternative days is the best way of working naturally, the best way to proceed is to move from a 4 day split to a six, giving three on and three off


How have you come to this conclusion?


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## kernowgee

20 years of body building youngster, a degree and working with over 100 people to become much bigger than you, so firm footings


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## Rekless

kernowgee said:


> 20 years of body building youngster, a degree and working with over 100 people to become much bigger than you, so firm footings


I asked as i was genuinly intrested, after after this is a forum, made to share ideas and thoughts.

But thanks for the pointless, unhelpful answer.


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## dtlv

kernowgee said:


> In real terms you need the minimum of three routines for a complete cycle and three days rest for each muscle group thus it is impossible to do two complete cycles within one week due to upper body crossover, *science shows alternative days is the best way of working naturally*, the best way to proceed is to move from a 4 day split to a six, giving three on and three off


Am not being argumentative for the sake of it but have you any scientific studies to show this? I have access to quite a few journals and haven't seen any pattern in the studies on resistance training protocols that strongly support this claim.

It's actually quite hard to generalise a single method from the studies anyway as they usually show differing responses between different groups - male vs female, old vs young, previously trained vs novice trainers, and of course goals are important in determining what to do too - strength training vs endurance training vs hypertrophy training.... any suggestion as to what is the optimum protocol should be based on an individual assesment and goals IMO.


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## kernowgee

Dtlv74 no muscle recovers at the same rate to start with, some weaker muscles like the bicep take as long as I prescribe to recover, the problem you have is generalising and presuming all muscles recover at the same rate which they do not, so for a complete routine and to allow complete recovery you need to know which muscle recovers the slowest to allow full recovery, and science shows this is three days, this has become very cloudy due to some using additives but for naturals smaller muscles like the biceps need over three days to recover, this is very basic biology


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## dtlv

kernowgee said:


> Dtlv74 no muscle recovers at the same rate to start with, some weaker muscles like the bicep take as long as I prescribe to recover, the problem you have is generalising and presuming all muscles recover at the same rate which they do not, so for a complete routine and to allow complete recovery you need to know which muscle recovers the slowest to allow full recovery, and science shows this is three days, this has become very cloudy due to some using additives but for naturals smaller muscles like the biceps need over three days to recover, this is very basic biology


Ok I get where you are coming from - but am not sure I agree competely. A type II muscle fibre in the bicep will recover at the same rate as a type II muscle fibre in the pectoral so long as exposed to the same relative exercise intensity and damage.

I do however get that some muscles have different fibre distributions to others and may recover longer from specific forms of training, but this can be accomodated for by manipulating training intensity for each muscle - If intensity is balanced to frequency independently for all exercises then recovery can be made equal over time - in other words if training all bodyparts twice per week, the faster recovering ones can be hit slightly harder (closer to failure) whilst the muscles with a lesser recovery capability trained not so hard.

Classic example of this for me is lower back and hams (the muscles which seem to take longest recovery time for me when trained heavy) - if training them twice per week I'll not go to failure and limit volume to just a few sets... whereas a fast recovering muscle like biceps I'll do slightly more volume and to failure.

The overall effect is equal fatigue, equal recovery and equal growth.


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## kernowgee

With respect DLTV and ignoring the other trolls if you work out three days consecutively then day one of recover can not start until you fully stop training so even if the answer is just two days recovery, which it is not then it would still be impossible to do two complete cycles reaping maximum reward, I am not saying you will not see results just recovery for smaller musces does take up to three days, you are still basing your theories on best common denominator rather than worst, which is poor science

You also need to understand the difference between recovering one muscle and an entire body, the body does not do equal growth, It does survival first.


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## martin brown

Bish83 said:


> Well i stand corrected then and hitting your genetic max twice a week is possible after all.


Oops maybe my words were a little confusing - I didn't mean they hit their max twice a week, for one that'd be almost impossible for the best squatters as hitting a true max takes some time and carfeul training before hand.

I just meant that most of the worlds biggest squatters squat twice a week and often more. This is obviously controlled volume and intensity though. As anyone's should - it's pretty stupid even for a novice to be working to failure twice a week.

M


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## martin brown

kernowgee said:


> With respect DLTV and ignoring the other trolls if you work out three days consecutively then day one of recover can not start until you fully stop training so even if the answer is just two days recovery, which it is not then it would still be impossible to do two complete cycles reaping maximum reward, I am not saying you will not see results just recovery for smaller musces does take up to three days, you are still basing your theories on best common denominator rather than worst, which is poor science
> 
> You also need to understand the difference between recovering one muscle and an entire body, the body does not do equal growth, It does survival first.


So you are saying that recovery only starts on the first rest day even from training two days prior?


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## dtlv

kernowgee said:


> With respect DLTV and ignoring the other trolls if you work out three days consecutively then day one of recover can not start until you fully stop training so even if the answer is just two days recovery, which it is not then it would still be impossible to do two complete cycles reaping maximum reward, I am not saying you will not see results just recovery for smaller musces does take up to three days, you are still basing your theories on best common denominator rather than worst, which is poor science
> 
> You also need to understand the difference between recovering one muscle and an entire body, the body does not do equal growth, It does survival first.


With respect back I think you are missing the point in that quite simply this protocol works - and with many people that I've worked with and including myself, at least as well as longer rest periods.


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## Andrew Jacks

martin brown said:


> So you are saying that recovery only starts on the first rest day even from training two days prior?


Its not rocket science as Master Yates stated think of if as sandpaper, you rub it red raw then keep rubbing it is never going to recover, but he was only Mr Universe not a one pull wonder, looking at the muscle development between the two of you I know who I would prefer to believe Martin


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## Rekless

in reality it's pretty hard to actually overtrain a muscle, they are ridculously adaptive so you have to do some serious damage to work them to a point they can't actually grow.

Over training your CNS is a diffrent story


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## Andrew Jacks

Dtlv74 said:


> With respect back I think you are missing the point in that quite simply this protocol works - and with many people that I've worked with and including myself, at least as well as longer rest periods.


I recall learning three days in the required recover zone for some muscles, is this not about about what you call fully recovered?


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## martin brown

Andrew Jacks said:


> Its not rocket science as Master Yates stated think of if as sandpaper, you rub it red raw then keep rubbing it is never going to recover, but he was only Mr Universe not a one pull wonder, looking at the muscle development between the two of you I know who I would prefer to believe Martin


Wow you have some serious issues. Firstly you accuse me of stalking you and now petty insults!


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## Andrew Jacks

Anything you say one lift wonder, I see you are the only one digging at the mo, your training is not the same as a body builders so your comments are very limited, a bodybuilder looks to maximise recover whereas you seek explosion

Two very different tings, thus explaining your arrogance, not sure why you feel the need for the history lesson, I thought the op held control of threats no egos


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## dtlv

Andrew Jacks said:


> I recall learning three days in the required recover zone for some muscles, is this not about about what you call fully recovered?


the thing is 'muscle recovery' is not one factor it is several - tissue remodelling, replenishment of energy substrates, reduction of training induced inflammation, nerve remodelling at the neuromuscular junction etc, and each process takes a different amount of time to occur.

The quickest is usually replenishment of energy substrates - normally happens within just one or two meals/feeds after training.

Next quickest is normally tissue remodelling - almost all protein synthesis occurs with the first 24 hours and its normall all complete within 36 hrs.

Then we have neuromuscular adaptation which can take a highly varaiable amount of time depending on the level of intensity and how much work was performed to failure at maximal weights within a given rep range. Sometimes this can take 24 hours, sometimes weeks, and soemtimes is barely necessary at all as in the case with high volume non failure training where pump and lactic acid induces failure.

Inflammation is the most common recovery issue with frequent training as this normally varies between 48 hours and 96 hours - but unlike the other factors this one can be affected the most by dietary and exercise intervention, with whole body hydration, FFA balance, provision of antioxidants, levels of nutrients that effect immune response, use of passive recovery exercise etc all impacting the time taken to recover normal levels of inflammation.

This is why I dispute the set idea that it takes three days, no more/no less, to recover even the muscles with the worst recovery capacity, and also reject the assumption that follows from that that anything different therefore has to be inferior - it may be very true under specific condtions of one or two studies or styles of training, but in the real world there are so many variable factors and different ways to train and support your training that generalising the results of a very small amount of research to all conditions and training routines bad science IMO.

i do find the other views interesting though and am not knocking


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## hsmann87

i think many different splits work

check this out: http://bodyspace.bodybuilding.com/thenaturalone1ky/more.php?section=workoutprogram

the guy is in SICK shape


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## Jack92

once every 5 days for me


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## SeBb0

once every 5 for me also but currently every 3rd week or so i will focus on a body part & work on it twice in one week to mix things up.. gonna give that laynes phat routine a go next week! see how i get on


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## kernowgee

Recovery time has many variables including life style outside the gym, sleep and general health, perhaps some nats can recover in a few days, yet all the bigger nats I know do not double up and train no more than a few times a week paying great respect to rest. I also honestly believe this is the best way of avoiding injury which plagues those over-egging the pudding


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## IrishRaver

kernowgee said:


> Recovery time has many variables including life style outside the gym, sleep and general health, perhaps some nats can recover in a few days, yet all the bigger nats I know do not double up and train no more than a few times a week paying great respect to rest. I also honestly believe this is the best way of avoiding injury which plagues those over-egging the pudding


Yeah I agree especially about the lifestyle. My job has me constantly on my feet walking (pretty fast) and carrying things so I take that into consideration when recovering. My social life is pretty demanding also


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## kernowgee

Rest and recovery is certainly one of the most overlooked aspects of bodybuilding, the dilemma seems to be created by the pros, ironically the more experience you have the less rest you require, though with experience comes age which by your mid 20s starts to increase the rest required, then you have to consider what muscles and fibres you have worked, followed by diet, amazing how this subject is rarely mentioned yet is absolutely key to successful building


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## Lycan Prince

if youve been training for a while there is no reason why training twice a week cant work well, i would advise doing a similar split as layne norton tho doing power sessions and hypertrophy sessions with a rest in between


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## Hardlabour2010

On the gear always seems easier to get to the next session quicker for me.... bin natural for a good 7-8 months now and i wouldnt dream of trying to train a body part twice in one week....!

Although i dont think i would want to, as the more time i spend in the gym the more muscle groups i find to target seperatly!!!!


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