# steroid use in pro bodybuilding and how mow come they are not all dead or suffering.



## hardcore.extrme (Apr 24, 2010)

i hear all the time ronnie coleman is on 2500 mg a week of test.this bodybuilder is taking this much that bodybuilder taking this much.

so i said hold on.i have read all the negative effects of high doage steroids.how come when they step on stage they are happy to be there and enjoying it with no regret in their eyes.i am planning on being pro and i will never use the mega doeses that some people talk about.

so why is it that pros arent dying or in severe pain if so many ignorant people claim they are on so much when i think their dosages are very low.

?


----------



## dixie normus (May 11, 2008)

How do you know they are not dying, or are in pain?


----------



## WWR (Feb 28, 2010)

Genetics are going to have a lot of play in this too. Some people need truck loads of gear other dont.


----------



## engllishboy (Nov 1, 2007)

Ronnie's natural, what are you on about?! Next you'll be telling me Santa Clause isn't real!


----------



## Curtace (Apr 9, 2003)

engllishboy said:


> Ronnie's natural, what are you on about?! Next you'll be telling me Santa Clause isn't real!


SANTA CLAUS isnt REAL !!!!!! B*****D !!! no wonder all i got for crimbo

was some nasty Holland and barrett bodyfortress Protein :lol:


----------



## FATBOY (Mar 4, 2008)

hardcore.extrme said:


> i hear all the time ronnie coleman is on 2500 mg a week of test.this bodybuilder is taking this much that bodybuilder taking this much.
> 
> so i said hold on.i have read all the negative effects of high doage steroids.how come when they step on stage they are happy to be there and enjoying it with no regret in their eyes.i am planning on being pro and i will never use the mega doeses that some people talk about.
> 
> ...


There are a lot of pros who have ended up pretty ill flex wheeler looked very happy on stage but ended up needing a transplant , don long, tom prince,shaun davis , have all ended up ill,

and few deaths along the way to and im sure there are loads of amatures who have ended up ill or dead along the way,

its the price some have paid dont be nieve m8,


----------



## milos1 (Mar 6, 2009)

FATBOY said:


> There are a lot of pros who have ended up pretty ill flex wheeler looked very happy on stage but ended up needing a transplant , don long, tom prince,shaun davis , have all ended up ill,
> 
> and few deaths along the way to and im sure there are loads of amatures who have ended up ill or dead along the way,
> 
> its the price some have paid dont be nieve m8,


What happened to Shaun Davis? Seen him in a seminar in 2003 cool guy spoke very openly about the bodybuilding lifestyle.


----------



## Tinytom (Sep 16, 2005)

hardcore.extrme said:


> i hear all the time ronnie coleman is on 2500 mg a week of test.this bodybuilder is taking this much that bodybuilder taking this much.
> 
> so i said hold on.i have read all the negative effects of high doage steroids.how come *when they step on stage they are happy to be there and enjoying it with no regret in their eyes*.*i am planning on being pro* and i will never use the mega doeses that some people talk about.
> 
> ...


These two obviously show you really have no idea what it takes to compete

But then you are still at school so how would you know? :lol:


----------



## Tinytom (Sep 16, 2005)

FATBOY said:


> There are a lot of pros who have ended up pretty ill flex wheeler looked very happy on stage but ended up needing a transplant , don long, tom prince,shaun davis , have all ended up ill,
> 
> and few deaths along the way to and im sure there are loads of amatures who have ended up ill or dead along the way,
> 
> its the price some have paid dont be nieve m8,


Flex was due to a inherited family kidney disease and not caused by steroids he says the doctor told him so in his book, how true that is make your own guess

Don Long again I think similar to Flex

Tom Prince was due to over use of anti imflammitories

Shaun Davis dont know TBH.

Not condoning use of gear but these examples were from other factors maybe the gear helped I dont know.


----------



## Heat01 (Oct 15, 2006)

Lou Ferigno took a large dose of Gamma rays to get to his size and ive never heard of

him having any health issues, albeit a touch green about the face...


----------



## Lois_Lane (Jul 21, 2009)

hardcore.extrme said:


> i am planning on being pro a


Nice! I plan on becoming a god in the near future. Good luck with goals:thumbup1:


----------



## sizar (Nov 13, 2008)

Don't kill the guy for saying his planing to be a pro. Everyone plans for things but doesn't mean it happens in this life time. maybe after life never know lol

i plan to win the national lottery next week lol you see my point


----------



## hardcore.extrme (Apr 24, 2010)

Lois_Lane said:


> Nice! I plan on becoming a god in the near future. Good luck with goals:thumbup1:


whats with the doubt.it helps me train harder knowing i am determined to get there


----------



## hardcore.extrme (Apr 24, 2010)

Tinytom said:


> These two obviously show you really have no idea what it takes to compete
> 
> But then you are still at school so how would you know? :lol:


 i know everything there is to know about what it takes to compete bro.


----------



## hardcore.extrme (Apr 24, 2010)

Curtace said:


> SANTA CLAUS isnt REAL !!!!!! B*****D !!! no wonder all i got for crimbo
> 
> was some nasty Holland and barrett bodyfortress Protein :lol:


 your off topic mate


----------



## hardcore.extrme (Apr 24, 2010)

i said from the look in their eyes it looks like they are happy to be there.

do you see them in interviews.


----------



## maccer (Jul 11, 2007)

lol hardcore you know the score


----------



## bigbear21 (Oct 11, 2009)

i dont mean to be nasty or scathing but to come out and say you know everything you need to know to compete yet you dont know about steroid useage jez alot of pros dont know what they need to know which is why they use trainers and nutritionists to help them prep and being a pro is a job you have to present a happy and healthy persona to the public its called pr you have to protect the sport from the judgemental ignorance of the masses. i know two pros personally who have retired in part due to the effects of steriod use well to be exact one was due to roids agrevating a genetic problem and the other was going blind due to insulin a friend of mine died a couple of months ago due to steroids and he was still trying to get his pro card i have two other friends that have died as a direct result of roids quite often people will say this person died of a genetically enlargedheart or other reason to save the family from the ridicule and embaressment of having a family member dying from drug abuse

You have alot to learn and this can be a great place to learn but you arent making good first impressions regards becoming a pro i hope you do and i wish you all the luck but lets hope you change your attitude along the way


----------



## Dsahna (May 25, 2009)

hardcore.extrme said:


> *i know everything*
> 
> *
> * there is to know about what it takes to compete bro.


I could sort of understand your point until you wrote this mate!


----------



## stow (Jun 5, 2007)

I'll prob get short to bit for saying this, but...

What you will tend to see pal is many people more than happy to explain away higher profile cases with genetic factors, pre-exisiting conditions etc etc. But in many cases, gear is bad for you. Maybe not short term, but longer term.

Its just an accepted risk, and weighing up that risk in the context of your lifestyle and goals is personal only to you.

Smoking, drinking and rec drugs all carry risk to physical and/or mental health but people still do it. Lifes about choices.


----------



## ste247 (Mar 18, 2008)

milos1 said:


> What happened to Shaun Davis? Seen him in a seminar in 2003 cool guy spoke very openly about the bodybuilding lifestyle.





FATBOY said:


> There are a lot of pros who have ended up pretty ill flex wheeler looked very happy on stage but ended up needing a transplant , don long, tom prince,shaun davis , have all ended up ill,
> 
> and few deaths along the way to and im sure there are loads of amatures who have ended up ill or dead along the way,
> 
> its the price some have paid dont be nieve m8,


 shaun davis had a massive drink problem and took about 10 nap 50's aday.........

tom prince was addicted to pain killers....

and flex had a inherited kidney problem....

so there are all underlying reasons that have resulted in there probelms and not just gear alone......


----------



## Mars (Aug 25, 2007)

hardcore.extrme said:


> i know everything there is to know about what it takes to compete bro.


 :lol: , sure you do, this comment alone tells me you'll never make it.


----------



## Tinytom (Sep 16, 2005)

You Know EVERYTHING there is about competing?

Well lets stack that with some of your gems of advice

''over training if your not on any bodybuilding drugs is 20 sets for chest and about 16 sets for bicep. just an example''

Chest and Biceps hmmmmmmm

''dude dont make anything too complicated.if you want to put on mass on the chest just do heavy and hard bench press 10 sets then 3 sets on dumbells and then giant supersets on cables.''

''best leg training would be to go on the muscletech website and have a look at johnnie jackson giant set leg training''

Muscletech right I see now

''deca 200mg sustanon up to 500mg for a moderate user.

expect the best gains of your life while training with this stuff. ''

Best gains of my life right got you, what about GH slin IGF etc

''the best supplements to use when bulking are:

.test boosters

hgh boosters.

anabolic activators l-luecine

.pre workout nitric oxide.

strong creatine example cell tech hardcore.you can stack this altogether to help you get enourmous gains in size and strength and also your hormones will be up the roof with test boosters even though if they are natural. ''

Cell Tech Hardcore, Enormous size and strength, Hormones hit the roof sounds good where can I read that advert? Muscletech website? right cool

''dianabol should be stacked with an injectible for dramatic results!!''

''dbol is a very powerful oral steroid.dont go over 100mg a day for 4 weeks or you can abuse it and then end up getting liver toxicity''

DBol sounds great!

and then consider this

''wigh them on a wheigher that can tell you the units of mg.

do your research and get yourself one.*ive seen one of them laying around at my school''*

*Muscletech*

*School*

*Chest and Biceps*

wheres Coloumbo when you need him dammit:lol: :lol:


----------



## sizar (Nov 13, 2008)

TOM REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEPS


----------



## fishy007 (Dec 27, 2009)

haha thats one beating i cant see him getting up from


----------



## Cheese (Jul 7, 2009)

You just got knocked the fvck out maaaan!

Reps Tom, brilliant! :lol:


----------



## thevoice (May 10, 2007)

Lol classic! Owned woo


----------



## ryoken (Jan 8, 2009)

a weigher that weighs units of mgs:confused1: :confused1:

oh wait a scales --- my mummy has one in her kitchen next to her gear:lol:


----------



## Will Temple (May 26, 2010)

Hahahahaha I'm soo glad this cnut got owned!!! reps for tinytom!!


----------



## Andy Dee (Jun 1, 2008)

hardcore.extrme said:


> i hear all the time ronnie coleman is on 2500 mg a week of test.this bodybuilder is taking this much that bodybuilder taking this much.
> 
> so i said hold on.i have read all the negative effects of high doage steroids.*how come when they step on stage they are happy to be there and enjoying it with no regret in their eyes*.i am planning on being pro and i will never use the mega doeses that some people talk about.
> 
> ...


Your suppose to look at the stage when you go to watch a show mate, not the audience.



hardcore.extrme said:


> i am planning on being pro and i will never use the mega doeses that some people talk about


Pmsl :lol: fckin reps


----------



## empzb (Jan 8, 2006)

Smashed it TT :lol: :lol:


----------



## ba baracuss (Apr 26, 2004)




----------



## Old but not out (Sep 8, 2009)

ste247 said:


> shaun davis had a massive drink problem and took about 10 nap 50's aday.........
> 
> tom prince was addicted to pain killers....
> 
> ...


I saw Shaun Davis talk 10 years ago - even then after walking up 2 flights of stairs he was out of breath and struggling to talk. He looked great but breathed and sounded like an 80-year old with half a lung?


----------



## Rekless (May 5, 2009)

http://www.trulyhuge.com/pro_bodybuilding.htm

Read that,

Most of them can't have kids and live n constant pain


----------



## gumballdom (Dec 14, 2008)

:lol: tinytom, thats how to completely destroy someones reputation in one swoop!


----------



## sizar (Nov 13, 2008)

Rekless said:


> http://www.trulyhuge.com/pro_bodybuilding.htm
> 
> Read that,
> 
> Most of them can't have kids and live n constant pain


do you beleieve everything you read ?

i mean that statement

" IM: All train alike?

BB: Well, yeah. We don't train that hard. [Most of the guys] are half asleep when they [work out]. "

WHAT :confused1:


----------



## cecil_sensation (Jan 26, 2009)

Lois_Lane said:


> Nice! I plan on becoming a god in the near future. Good luck with goals:thumbup1:


lmfao you funny f***er con :laugh: :lol: :laugh: :lol:

repped


----------



## cecil_sensation (Jan 26, 2009)

hahahaha tom that made me chuckle

but to be fair looks like the lad does know a thing or 2 about becoming pro ................................ just not in this life time

reps for tom


----------



## Khaos1436114653 (Aug 28, 2009)

Lois_Lane said:


> Nice! I plan on becoming a god in the near future. Good luck with goals:thumbup1:


I am already "a God"


----------



## Khaos1436114653 (Aug 28, 2009)

hardcore.extrme said:


> whats with the doubt Lois.it helps me train harder knowing i am determined to get there, i already look better than you





hardcore.extrme said:


> i know everything there is to know about what it takes to compete bredrin, I can whup Toms ass anyday....and i'm taller


theres only one way to settle this...................FIGHT

:lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## Rekless (May 5, 2009)

sizar said:


> do you beleieve everything you read ?
> 
> i mean that statement
> 
> ...


A lot of truth in that article though

But yeah i thought that statement was a little weird lol.


----------



## C19H28O2 (Oct 11, 2008)

May be slightly off topic but what are your thoughts on this

Brian Pillman (35)-October 5, 1997-Arteriosclerotic heart disease.

"Ravishing" Rick Rude (40)-April 20, 1999-Heart attack.

"The British Bulldog" Davey Boy Smith (39) -May 18, 2002-Heart attack.

Hawk (46)- October 19, 2003-Heart Attack

"Hercules" Hernandez (46)-March 6, 2004-Died in his sleep.

Ray "Big Bossman" Traylor (41)-September 22, 2004-Heart failure.

Eddie Guerrero (37)-November 13, 2005-Enlarged Heart due to years of drug use.

Umaga (36) - December 4, 2009-Heart Attack

Russ Haas (27)--December 15, 2001--Heart Attack.

Big Dick Dudley (36)--May 16, 2002--Kidney failure

Rocco Rock of Public Enemy (49)--September 21, 2002--Heart Attack.

Malice/The Wall [Jerry Tuite] (37)--December 6, 2003--acute heart attack

This was brought to my attention a while ago. Search the internet and you will find very few wrestlers that reach their life expectancy. The majority die from heart related diseases or drug over-doses; either prescription, recreational or both. Bodybuilders follow a similar path, albeit no to the same extent .. e.g using a cocktail of steroids, peptides, fat burners and POM's--AAS, GH, T3, EPH, PCT drugs and some people (including myself) dabble in recreational drugs from time to time.

Admittedly being a wrestler may be more physically demanding (in terms of injury and performance, not training) and it is well known that wrestlers (due to this fact) use pain killers, so BB's and wrestlers are not entirely comparable but IMO there are many similarities.

Also wrestling was far more popular than BB'ing so the adverse effects can now be observed; now that BB is popular and far more people partake, what are we going to see in 10-20 years??

http://www.pwwew.net/people/dead.htm


----------



## whackedout (Sep 10, 2009)

A lot of these wrestlers were working almost non stop, 360 days per year minimum and partying hard as well. My thoughts are, whilst there may be some synergies between B'bers and wrestlers there are probably more with wrestlers, actors and musicians. The b'bing diet is often much cleaner, the level of rest and recuperation is also vastly different.


----------



## BigDom86 (Jul 27, 2008)

ok look at nfl players. they take PEDs yet arent dropping like flies. wrestlers, they take PEDs, pain kiler addiction, aclhol addiction, and many wrestlers are known for their addiction to things like cocaine, hillbilly heroin etc etc, the list goes on.


----------



## Andy Dee (Jun 1, 2008)

C19H28O2 said:


> May be slightly off topic but what are your thoughts on this
> 
> Brian Pillman (35)-October 5, 1997-Arteriosclerotic heart disease.
> 
> ...


I think the fact is there all wrestlers who work all year round and weigh between 250-400+lbs all year round years and years on end which probably doesnt do there health any favours regardless of what there using.

They probably have insane lifestyles too.


----------



## LunaticSamurai (May 19, 2009)

There is a big difference between the BBers of today and the past, there are so many steroids and pro hormones around that your spoilt for choice, most people with stack this with that and then something else.... thats why they are dying or in pain, and for what? if you want to be the biggest muthafvcker in the world, then cram as much 5hit down your throat and in you muscles as you can, if not, get a book and research.


----------



## Irish Beast (Jun 16, 2009)

Havent read all the posts but heres my 2 cents.

Whenever a pro bb becomes ill or dies, everyone blames steroids but they always come up with a different excuse. Arnolds heart problems were genetic apparently, flexs kidney problems were genetic apparently.

Not sure how much of it I believe to be perfectly frank.

Im not a pro bodybuilder as you have probably guessed but Im pretty sure the dosages they use are going to led to health problems. They can cover it up with as many genetic family disorder claims as they want. Of course I am being hypocritical as I use moderately heavy dosages of gear and will never admit to the gf that some of the obvious side effects are gear related.


----------



## pariah (May 8, 2008)

How on earth can you determine if a heart condition or kidney condition is genetic when you are injecting copious amounts of hormones, yo-yo dieting and high levels of protein?

I fail to see how any physician can isolate these conditions based on the environment users put their bodies thru. There are way to many factors to make a judgement this like this and even if Arnold's farther, Flex's father etc did have the same condition it doesn't necessarily mean it will manifest. I would argue these factors would increase the predisposition for a physiological problem more-so than with out.


----------



## C19H28O2 (Oct 11, 2008)

Yes I agree that wrestling requires a 'stage' appearance year round and also that the fame (and associated drug use/life style) plays it tole, but..

@ *andysutils* pro bodybuilders dedicate their life to training- eg use AAS/peps and maintain a high weight/LBM year round

@* Bigdom* I'm not overly familiar with NFL, but I doubt they use AAS to the extent of wrestlers or BB's.. their aim is purely performance rather than performance/cosmetic. As mentioned I agree with the drug issue, but I've never heard of a performing wrestler or even retired using heroin... hillbilly heroin is referring to oxycodone an opiate based pain killer

Let me put this a different way; do you think AAS contributed to the premature deaths?


----------



## BigDom86 (Jul 27, 2008)

of course AAS can contribute to their deaths 100%


----------



## round 2 (Jan 14, 2010)

Time will tell but dorian seemed to play it well.


----------



## Andy Dee (Jun 1, 2008)

C19H28O2 said:


> @ *andysutils* pro bodybuilders dedicate their life to training- eg use AAS/peps and maintain a high weight/LBM year round


yeh course they do.



















:lol:


----------



## Tinytom (Sep 16, 2005)

Im not saying that steroids are safe far from it.

BUt I wont accept that everyone that does steroids dies a premature death.

Smoking for example doesnt kill everyone from lung cancer, smoking and a poor lifestyle would contribute to heart failure though massively.

I think you have to weigh up the risks when you decide your dosages.

Shawn Ray for example one name that embodies the bber physique and to my knowledge no health problems yet.


----------



## whackedout (Sep 10, 2009)

BigDom86 said:


> of course AAS can contribute to their deaths 100%


Best answer is to say that AAS might have contributed to their deaths, but it is one of many factors that might have, e.g. clinical obesity, drug use, unprotected sex with multiple partners resulting in STDs, stress, and the list goes on.


----------



## Replicator (Apr 4, 2009)

What are steroids :confused1:

are they like hemaroids ..........coz you can get cream for that!!


----------



## britbull (Mar 18, 2004)

Bodybuilding and ego tend to go hand in hand, with that in mind who is really going to admit that by living the lifestyle they will more than likely take 20 years off what should be a long life.Bit of a sweeping statement i know but not a million miles from the truth


----------



## BigDom86 (Jul 27, 2008)

like tom says its a multitude of factors. example, my grandfather smoked about 40 a day on top of his own rolies and drank probably half a bottle of whisky a day.. he died at 86 of natural causes. my mother who never smoke or drank much in her life died of cancer age 46... everyone is different. some people may have an adverse to a steroid and die, others may have no adverse reactions at all and be fine. i believe pros have the genetics to respond well to the drugs and for their body to tolerate it well.


----------



## Tinytom (Sep 16, 2005)

I think theres more of an immediate risk from the guys trying to emulate the doses they 'know' the pros use and as such really fcuking themselves up before they can handle the amounts.


----------



## C19H28O2 (Oct 11, 2008)

Tinytom said:


> *Im not saying that steroids are safe far from it.*
> 
> *BUt I wont accept that everyone that does steroids dies a premature death.*
> 
> ...


Thats the point i was trying to make, i don't think that EVERYONE that takes steroids dies prematurely..

I just think that many are disillusioned to the risks that steroids carry.. and will fight tooth an nail to place or the blame elsewhere


----------



## C19H28O2 (Oct 11, 2008)

andysutils said:


> yeh course they do.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


yes actually they do... but bulking and cutting (to the extent shown above) probably presents more risks... Carrying that much weight puts the body under a lot of stress


----------



## Khaos1436114653 (Aug 28, 2009)

i'd rather do what i do than live the lives of some people i know.........


----------



## Andy Dee (Jun 1, 2008)

C19H28O2 said:


> yes actually they do... but bulking and cutting (to the extent shown above) probably presents more risks... Carrying that much weight puts the body under a lot of stress


yup which was precisely my point with the vast majority of the wrestlers you mentioned being over 260lbs in weight with not all extremely being lean at all. :whistling:


----------



## raf3070 (Mar 2, 2009)

engllishboy said:


> Ronnie's natural, what are you on about?! Next you'll be telling me Santa Clause isn't real!


Its clearly creatine abuse!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Tinytom (Sep 16, 2005)

LOL I dont think Ive EVER received as much reppage for a single post than that one.

Feel a bit bad now profitting from someone elses misfortune. Im going to hell lol


----------



## Khaos1436114653 (Aug 28, 2009)

Tinytom said:


> LOL I dont think Ive EVER received as much reppage for a single post than that one.
> 
> Feel a bit bad now profitting from someone elses misfortune. *Im going to hell* lol


Tom just remember when you get to *Hell*, spit is Satans lube.......make sure you ask for the spit:lol: :lol:


----------



## MarcusWright (Mar 19, 2010)

cutler pic is awesome

that him at 450lbs in the off season lol


----------



## ba baracuss (Apr 26, 2004)

andysutils said:


>


Fuking hell look at the shape of his head :lol:

His jaw is enormous - some mega GH abuse has gone on here :lol:


----------



## Lois_Lane (Jul 21, 2009)

Steroids are like any medication people react differently to various amounts. That's why you should start reasonably low and judge how it affects your gains AND health.


----------



## WRT (May 21, 2009)

sizar said:


> do you beleieve everything you read ?
> 
> i mean that statement
> 
> ...


*IM: Have you ever noticed any serious health problems that you think are related to this?*

*BB:* I p1ss a lot of blood come contest time.

*IM: But in the off-season you feel pretty decent, even though you're taking all that stuff?*

*BB:* Well, recently I started getting blood tests every two months.

*IM: How about cholesterol count, blood pressure and so forth? All that's pretty normal?*

*BB:* No, everything is high. My blood pressure gets really high, and that must be watched, especially when I take stimulants.

LMAO


----------



## MarcusWright (Mar 19, 2010)

in all seriousness though be interesting to know what pro's do take, have seen alot of em training on utube etc and they put some graft in

must cost em a bomb

cutler always seems fine and alot of the pros do seem dead sound when you see them in interviews and on utube etc


----------



## ojaysmoke (Mar 27, 2010)

dont know if anyones mentioned munzer yet, used huge amounts of gear which probably contributed to his death

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andreas_M%C3%BCnzer


----------



## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

C19H28O2 said:


> May be slightly off topic but what are your thoughts on this
> 
> Brian Pillman (35)-October 5, 1997-Arteriosclerotic heart disease.
> 
> ...


A fair portion of that list died due to cardiac arrest linked to mixing cocktails of pain killers/recreational drugs rather than steroids... I know that's the case with at least five of those names.

Eddie Guerrero died due to an enlarged heart and that was linked to AAS use, but his use was considered crazily huge.

Full time pro wrestlers though do batter their bodies like crazy... not many sports are more demanding or risky, and a lot of them (apparently) seek to help keep themselves going and pain free by taking an awful lot of different things.

As for the general point, there are a number of people who have suffered health issues due to AAS use, but looking at it in perspective it's only a tiny portion of people who actually use them and most usually linked either to very heavy prolonged usage or interaction with another set of drugs.

The general health warnings about AAS use are not wrong, but they are slightly misleading in that most of the warnings are based on looking at what steroids can do to you if you don't follow sensible cycles and PCT rather than what happens if you do.


----------



## Khaos1436114653 (Aug 28, 2009)

Eddie pushed his body hard and partied hard.....R.I.P Eddie


----------



## Number1 (Apr 13, 2006)

Chris Bennoit roid raged his family,


----------



## tom0311 (Nov 17, 2008)

ojaysmoke said:


> dont know if anyones mentioned munzer yet, used huge amounts of gear which probably contributed to his death
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andreas_M%C3%BCnzer


I checked that out about a week ago, since then they seem to have stripped down a lot of the page. The paragraph on his death was at least 4 times bigger than that, with quite a lot of detail. His organs were totally fcuked and his liver was pretty much melting when he got admitted to hospital apparently.


----------



## whackedout (Sep 10, 2009)

Number1 said:


> Chris Bennoit roid raged his family,


Or had a psychotic break?


----------



## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

Number1 said:


> Chris Bennoit roid raged his family,


Benoit was said to have a brain that was severely damaged when they did the autopsy... apparently twenty years of multiple concussions had left him with a brain in similar condition to someone approaching the advanced stage of alzheimers.

Such a tragedy what happened with him and what he did to his family when he lost the plot... brain damage though and not steroids.


----------



## big_jim_87 (Jul 9, 2009)

hardcore.extrme said:


> i hear all the time ronnie coleman is on 2500 mg a week of test.this bodybuilder is taking this much that bodybuilder taking this much.
> 
> so i said hold on.i have read all the negative effects of high doage steroids.how come when they step on stage they are happy to be there and enjoying it with no regret in their eyes.i am planning on being pro and i will never use the mega doeses that some people talk about.
> 
> ...


lol how old are you? this post makes you look silly if you are over 13yrs imo


----------



## shawky (Jan 14, 2009)

C19H28O2 said:


> May be slightly off topic but what are your thoughts on this
> 
> Brian Pillman (35)-October 5, 1997-Arteriosclerotic heart disease.
> 
> ...


----------



## Acee (Jan 21, 2010)

Used to know Shaun Davis a little, back in the day.

Career finished with Kidney failure, getting better after a transplant but you could walk past him in street now without thinking he used to train.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/derbyshire/7827548.stm


----------



## C19H28O2 (Oct 11, 2008)

Dtlv74 said:


> A fair portion of that list died due to cardiac arrest linked to mixing cocktails of pain killers/recreational drugs *rather than steroids*... I know that's the case with at least five of those names.
> 
> Agreed but you can not discount AAS
> 
> ...


AAS undoubtedly effect the heart- either directly (theres androgen receptors in cardiac muscle) or indirectly (hypertension). To what extent depends on many factors; Dose, duration, steroids used, sensitivity, stimulants, diet ect ..

Before I get flamed, I'm not trying to say that steroids will cause definately cause detrimental effects.. I'm saying that they are a risk factor, and you can not say that steroids did not contribute to the deaths- conversely I can't say they did.. but from the literature, *IMO* they did

*Long-term psychiatric and medical consequences of anabolic-androgenic steroid abuse: A looming public health concern? *

*Background<o></o>*

The problem of anabolic-androgenic steroid (AAS) abuse has recently generated widespread public and media attention. Most AAS abusers, however, are not elite athletes like those portrayed in the media, and many are not competitive athletes at all. This larger but less visible population of ordinary AAS users began to emerge in about 1980. The senior members of this population are now entering middle age; they represent the leading wave of a new type of aging former substance abusers, with specific medical and psychiatric risks.<o></o>

*Methods<o></o>*

We reviewed the evolving literature on long-term psychiatric and medical consequences of AAS abuse.<o></o>

*Results<o></o>*

Long-term use of supraphysiologic doses of AAS may cause irreversible cardiovascular toxicity, especially atherosclerotic effects and cardiomyopathy. In other organ systems, evidence of persistent toxicity is more modest, and interestingly, there is little evidence for an increased risk of prostate cancer. High concentrations of AAS, comparable to those likely sustained by many AAS abusers, produce apoptotic effects on various cell types, including neuronal cells-raising the specter of possibly irreversible neuropsychiatric toxicity. Finally, AAS abuse appears to be associated with a range of potentially prolonged psychiatric effects, including dependence syndromes, mood syndromes, and progression to other forms of substance abuse. However, the prevalence and severity of these various effects remains poorly understood.<o></o>

*Conclusions<o></o>*

As the first large wave of former AAS users now moves into middle age, it will be important to obtain more systematic data on the long-term psychiatric and medical consequences of this form of substance abuse.<o></o>

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T63-4SWP1Y8-1&_user=10&_coverDate=11%2F01%2F2008&_rdoc=1&_fmt=high&_orig=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=1361840283&_rerunOrigin=scholar.google&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=4a4f0d1cb2ab38a711ab82990426b39f

<o:smarttagtype namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-comffice:smarttags" name="City"></o:smarttagtype><o:smarttagtype namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-comffice:smarttags" name="place"></o:smarttagtype>55%). AAS users also demonstrated decreased diastolic function compared to non-users, as evidenced by a markedly lower E' velocity (7.4 [6.8, 7.9] versus 9.9 [8.3, 10.5]; p = 0.005) and E/A ratio (0.93 [0.88, 1.39] versus 1.80 [1.48, 2.00]; p = 0.003). <o></o>

*Conclusions*-Cardiac dysfunction in long-term AAS users appears more severe than previously reported, and may be sufficient to increase the risk of heart failure. <o></o>

http://circheartfailure.ahajournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/CIRCHEARTFAILURE.109.931063v1

<o> </o>

*Early Myocardial Dysfunction After Chronic Use of Anabolic Androgenic Steroids: Combined Pulsed-Wave Tissue Doppler Imaging and Ultrasonic Integrated Backscatter Cyclic Variations Analysis<o></o>*

<o> </o>

*Background<o></o>*

The chronic consumption of androgenic anabolic steroids (AAS) has shown to cause subclinical impairment of myocardial function. Pulsed-wave Doppler tissue imaging (PWDTI) detects early regional alterations of ventricular function, whereas integrated backscatter cyclic variations (IBScv) are tightly related to the contractile efficiency of the left ventricular wall. The aim of this study was to identify the effects of chronic AAS misuse on myocardial function using both PWDTI and IBScv.<o></o>

*Methods<o></o>*

Twenty-eight male bodybuilders (11 AAS users, 17 AAS nonusers) and 20 healthy sedentary subjects (controls), matched according to age, were studied. To assess left ventricular function, each subject underwent standard Doppler echocardiography, PWDTI, and IBScv analyses.<o></o>

*Results<o></o>*

Left ventricular mass was significantly higher in AAS users than in AAS nonusers and controls. Global systolic function (assessed by determining the ejection fraction) was similar in all subjects, but isovolumetric relaxation time was significantly higher in AAS users than in controls. On PWDTI analysis, AAS users showed regional systolic and diastolic dysfunction (evaluated by measuring s′, e′, and a′) not detectable in the other two groups. IBScv identified regional systolic impairment only in AAS users at the level of the left ventricular inferior wall.<o></o>

*Conclusions<o></o>*

The present study confirms that in AAS users, PWDTI and IBScv are effective and reliable noninvasive diagnostic tools for detecting early abnormalities of the systolic and diastolic longitudinal myocardial function, probably related to an increase in myocardial collagen content, interpretable as a repair process against the direct cellular injury produced by AAS.<o></o>

http://www.onlinejase.com/article/S0894-7317%2810%2900225-7/abstract

<o> </o>

*Manifestation of severe coronary heart disease after anabolic drug abuse *

<o> </o>

Anabolic steroids are frequently abused, thus increasing the risk of cardiovascular disease, despite the known unfavorable influence on lipid profiles. We report on a young bodybuilder who presented with ventricular tachycardia as the first manifestation of severe underlying coronary heart disease. Coronary angiogram revealed severe stenotic lesions in the right coronary artery and the left descending coronary artery, and hypokinetic regions corresponded to posterolateral and anterior myocardial infarctions. This young patient had a history without any coronary risk factors, but with a 2-year abuse of the anabolic steroid stanazolol. No report published so far has shown possible atherogenic consequences of long-term abuse of stanazolol.

<o> </o>

http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/121679713/abstract?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0

<o> </o>

*Androgenic anabolic steroids also impair right ventricular function<o></o>*

<o> </o>

Chronic anabolic steroid use suppresses left ventricular functions. However, there is no information regarding the chronic effects of anabolic steroids on right ventricular function which also plays a key role in global cardiac function. The main objective of the present study was to investigate the effects of androgenic anabolic steroids usage among athletes on remodeling the right part of the heart. Androgenic-anabolic steroids-using bodybuilders had smaller diastolic velocities of both ventricles than drug-free bodybuilders and sedentary counterparts. This study shows that androgenic anabolic steroids-using bodybuilders exhibited depressed diastolic functions of both ventricles.

<o> </o>

http://www.internationaljournalofcardiology.com/article/S0167-5273%2808%2900010-7/abstract

<o> </o>

*Are the cardiac effects of anabolic steroid abuse in strength athletes reversible?<o></o>*

<o> </o>

*Objective:* To investigate the reversibility of adverse cardiovascular effects after chronic abuse of anabolic androgenic steroids (AAS) in athletes. <o></o>

*Methods:* Doppler echocardiography and cycle ergometry including measurements of blood pressure at rest and during exercise were undertaken in 32 bodybuilders or powerlifters, including 15 athletes who had not been taking AAS for at least 12 months (ex-users) and 17 currently abusing AAS (users), as well as in 15 anabolic-free weightlifters. <o></o>

*Results:* Systolic blood pressure was higher in users (mean (SD) 140 (10) mm Hg) than in ex-users (130 (5) mm Hg) (p < 0.05) or weightlifters (125 (10) mm Hg; p < 0.001). Left ventricular muscle mass related to fat-free body mass and the ratio of mean left ventricular wall thickness to internal diameter were not significantly higher in users (3.32 (0.48) g/kg and 42.1 (4.4)%) than in ex-users (3.16 (0.53) g/kg and 40.3 (3.8)%), but were lower in weightlifters (2.43 (0.26) g/kg and 36.5 (4.0)%; p < 0.001). Left ventricular wall thickness related to fat-free body mass was also lower in weightlifters, but did not differ between users and ex-users. Left ventricular wall thickness was correlated with a point score estimating AAS abuse in users (r  =  0.49, p < 0.05). In all groups, systolic left ventricular function was within the normal range. The maximum late transmitral Doppler flow velocity (Amax) was higher in users (61 (12) cm/s) and ex-users (60 (12) cm/s) than in weightlifters (50 (9) cm/s; p < 0.05 and p  =  0.054). <o></o>

*Conclusions:* Several years after discontinuation of anabolic steroid abuse, strength athletes still show a slight concentric left ventricular hypertrophy in comparison with AAS-free strength athletes. <o></o>

http://heart.bmj.com/content/90/5/496.abstract

<o> </o>

Coronary Calcification in Body Builders Using Anabolic Steroids

<o> </o>

The authors measured coronary artery calcification as a means of examining the impact of anabolic steroids on the development of atherosclerotic disease in body builders using anabolic steroids over an extended period of time. Fourteen male professional body builders with no history of cardiovascular disease were evaluated for coronary artery calcium, serum lipids, left ventricular function, and exercise-induced myocardial ischemia. Seven subjects had coronary artery calcium, with a much higher than expected mean score of 98. Six of the 7 calcium scores were>90th percentile. Mean total cholesterol was 192 mg/dL, while mean high-density lipoprotein was 23 mg/dL and the mean ratio of total cholesterol to high-density lipoprotein was 8.3. Left ventricular ejection fraction ranged between 49$ and 68$, with a mean of 59$. No subject had evidence of myocardial ischemia. This small group of professional body builders with a long history of steroid abuse had high levels of coronary artery calcium for age. The authors conclude that in this small pilot study there is an association between early coronary artery calcium and long-term steroid abuse. Large-scale studies are warranted to further explore this association.<o></o>

<o> </o>

http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/118634338/abstract

<o> </o>

*Doping and effects of anabolic androgenic steroids on the heart: histological, ultrastructural, and echocardiographic assessment in strength athletes<o></o>*

<o> </o>

Anabolic androgenic steroids (AAS) are used by some athletes to enhance performance despite the health risk they may pose in some persons. This work was carried out to evaluate the possible structural and functional alterations in the heart using two-dimensional, M-mode, tissue Doppler imaging (TDI) and strain rate imaging (SRI) in athletes using supraphysiological doses of AAS. Additionally, the histological and ultrastructural changes in cardiac muscles of adult albino rats after injection of sustanon, as an example of AAS, were studied. Fifteen male bodybuilders using anabolic steroids constituted group 1, five male bodybuilders who are not using anabolic steroids constituted group 2, and five nonathletic males constituted negative control group (group 3). They were investigated by two-dimensional, M-mode, TDI and SRI. This study was performed on 30 adult albino rats. They were divided into two groups. Group I (Control group) (10) was subdivided into negative control, subgroup 1a (5), and subgroup 1b (5), which received 0.8 ml olive oil intramuscular once a week for 8 weeks. Group II (Experimental group) (20) received sustanon 10 mg/kg intramuscularly once a week for 8 weeks. The heart specimens were prepared for light microscopy and transmission electron microscopy. Echocardiographic results showed that bodybuilders who use steroids have smaller left ventricular dimension with thicker walls, impaired diastolic function, as well as higher peak systolic strain rate in steroid-using bodybuilders as compared to the other two groups. Light microscopy examination of cardiac muscle fibers showed focal areas of degeneration with loss of striations and vacuolation in the experimental group. Ultrastructural examination showed disturbance of the banding pattern of the cardiac muscle fiber with disintegration, loss of striations, dehiscent intercalated disc, and interrupted Z-bands. Administration of supraphysiological doses of AAS caused severe deleterious effects in the myocardium both in athletes and in experimental animals. The SRI shows promise in the early detection of systolic dysfunction in those athletes who use steroids.

<o> </o>

http://het.sagepub.com/cgi/content/abstract/28/5/273

Steroids and SCD article.pdf


----------



## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

Problem with all those studies is they have no direct information about which protocols the participants followed... all reporting is anecdotal and not measured... there's no guarantee that the statistical patterns are correct due to the possibility of incorrect reporting of past AAS usage by the participants.

The conclusions are pretty strong so the patterns are probably half way to correct... but caution has to be used.

I'd hazzard a bet that many people under reported... seems that's what most people I know who take AAS do.



C19H28O2 said:


> Agreed but you can not discount AAShttp://het.sagepub.com/cgi/content/abstract/28/5/273]


No I can't but the autopsies did... and those doctors know more about the individual cases than anyone else.



 C19H28O2 said:


> How are you quantifying this? And what are defining very heavy prolonged usage as?


Based on anecdotals... am always interested in the cases where someone has messed up their health on roids (I don't take them but many of my friends do or have), and everytime I've read an interview of anyone who has had serious issues, every time they talk about being 'on' for years straight, often not doing any blood work, and 'risky' bridging protocols between cycles and sometimes without proper PCT for periods when off at all.

Have never read an interview with anyone who has become ill, and then when asked about their usage go on to outline short cycles or 'normal usage' with more time off than on and organised PCT.

I admit anecdotals are not scientific and can't be counted as such, but that doesn't mean such observations should be totally discounted.

'Heavy usage' would be defined on a substance and condition specific basis... different answer for different substances in different circumstances for different goals.



C19H28O2 said:


> I believe its the opposite, one of the major limitations of nearly every study I've read is that the doses used did not reflect the actual doses used by bodybuilders, especially pro BB's.


So you agree with me then that the studies don't reflect usage patterns? I didn't actually mention doses, instead mentioned 'not following sensible cycles' which can mean too much, too little, taking for too long or not long enough... what's a good course for one set of circumstances might not be for another, so any comment on AAS that's not substance specific has to be a generalised one.

The problem with any study on AAS is that you can't actually legally perform one with a good experimental design as you'd be breaking the law... so most studies use second hand information which inherently makes accurate conclusions difficult.



C19H28O2 said:


> PCT is primarily to recover the HPTA, which of course is beneficial, but it has no effect on other possible risk factors..


Absolutely no risk at all to health whatsoever? Not even if you came off with total shut down and your body left you with sub optimal testosterone and a screwed hormonal balance for twelve months...?

There are many illnesses linked to hormone imbalances my friend


----------



## C19H28O2 (Oct 11, 2008)

Dtlv74 said:


> *Problem with all those studies is they have no direct information about which protocols the participants followed... all reporting is anecdotal and not measured... there's no guarantee that the statistical patterns are correct due to the possibility of incorrect reporting of past AAS usage by the participants.*
> 
> The conclusions are pretty strong so the patterns are probably half way to correct... but caution has to be used.
> 
> ...


Yes I agree the studies have limitations, but they are the only studies available. As you mentioned studies of this nature present ethical issues, especially when analyzing long term effects. There are numerous case control studies but they have many focused on hepatoxicity and the more immediate effects of particular AAS. The only way to analyze long term effects is via longitudinal studies.. either prolonged use or continuous cycling, which i doubt any ethics committee would grant

The autopsies may have not found AAS in their system but doesn't mean that AAS was not a factor. The effects caused by AAS can persist well after cessation, as highlighted in one of the studies I posted "Several years after chronic misuse of AAS, power athletes show a subclinical impairment of both systolic and diastolic myocardial function, strongly associated with mean dosage and duration of AAS use" We could therefore argue that these individuals are more at risk of heart disease, even though they are no longer using AAS?

I agree that dose/duration/AAS used are the main factors, but I would imagine wrestlers & pro BB's rank high in all these categories.. TBH very few people (including myself) follow the 'correct' protocol and either bridge or don't have enough time off..

No I didn't mean hypogonadism has no health risks, but its off topic, I highly doubt that the deaths were caused by a bad PCT


----------



## pariah (May 8, 2008)

I've read a few of those studies posted and I would take them with a pinch of salt. Researchers by nature have a tendency to 'sex' up their results.


----------



## Joshua (Aug 21, 2008)

Due to the nature of PED use, it is very difficult to get to the bottom of illness attributable to PED use. People are not open with it, because of the social stigma associated with PEDs as well as many people do not like admitting when they have done things for so long telling people how it is harmless only to suffer years down the line.

It is also difficult to attribute onset of problems to a specific cause eg the contributory effect of clenbuterol to cardiomyopathy, or androgens on atherosclerosis. In addition PED users are often taking complex stacks whose components are frequently changing. There is also little quatitative monitoring throughout use eg( blood works ), until serious problems have resulted. The science cannot directly apportion blame, the steroid haters will blame all woes on AAS, whilst many users oft live in a state of total denial.

I do know that south wales has had many admissions of long term PED users presenting with heart problems, and that one thing that seems to be in common between them was high dose, long term concomitant use of androgens, T3 and clenbuterol. The patten was strong enough for me to rethink/change my perspective in which PEDs I would play with and which I would not. The knowledge of this has also made me incorporate health considerations with a much greater priority when designing protocols.

Sure there will be a lot of people that disagree with me, and many will look much better than me too, but from what I have seen and what I know, I have learned to tread with some caution.

J


----------



## Team1 (Apr 3, 2008)

Some interestng posts

I think that quite often there is a whole lifestyle that can suround AAS use. T combination of EVERYTHING...the aas stacks along with the other stuff...plus alchohol and recreationals.


----------



## BillC (Jun 11, 2009)

sizar said:


> do you beleieve everything you read ?
> 
> i mean that statement
> 
> ...


If ythere is one thing wrong with this site, it's that when any article even suggests taking gear is bad/wrong/ could be damaging your helath, people jump on the the same soap box, where's the proof, underlying factors, don't believe all you read. I've seen first hand the list of ailments that go hand in hand with long term steroid and ped usage, how long it can take to recover, somethings just can't be recovered from.

So go ahead and live in the fantasy land that their isn't some risk and no price to pay. Sorry if you've justified it to yourself on hearsay etc telling you there is nothing wrong with roids, well there is, they are damaging you but as the saying goes, "The juice is worth the squeeze" for me, is it for you?


----------



## sizar (Nov 13, 2008)

BillC said:


> If ythere is one thing wrong with this site, it's that when any article even suggests taking gear is bad/wrong/ could be damaging your helath, people jump on the the same soap box, where's the proof, underlying factors, don't believe all you read. I've seen first hand the list of ailments that go hand in hand with long term steroid and ped usage, how long it can take to recover, somethings just can't be recovered from.
> 
> So go ahead and live in the fantasy land that their isn't some risk and no price to pay. Sorry if you've justified it to yourself on hearsay etc telling you there is nothing wrong with roids, well there is, they are damaging you but as the saying goes, "The juice is worth the squeeze" for me, is it for you?


what your saying it has nothing to do with what i have pointed out in the article?

I wasn't talking about gear .. if you read it you will see i pointed out the guy saying some of these pros are half asleep while training ? i doubt that


----------



## Smitch (Dec 29, 2008)

I think everyone here knows the risks that they are taking through doing steroids but believe the benefits outweigh the risks and the risk is worth taking.

I don't think any of us truly believe that they don't harm us at all, well i'd hope not anyway!!!


----------



## JoeyRamone (Sep 10, 2009)

I don't understand why everyones reponse is "well alcohol and **** are worse" that doesn't make steroids any better by pointing out something is worse. I'm not educated on it at all but I'd say there must be some risk and you will generally be healthier by not taking steroids. Obviously if you decide to take steroids and rationally weigh up the pros and cons then that's fine but just because there are worse things for you isn't a reason to think there's no risk.

I understand why people get mad when people who smoke or drink question the health risks of taking steroids but the standard answer on here always seems to be "smoking and drinking is worse" even if they do no know the person does either of these things. I would consider taking steroids if my training ever became good enough to warrant it so I don't have a problem with them merely the stock response.


----------



## C19H28O2 (Oct 11, 2008)

Joshua said:


> Due to the nature of PED use, it is very difficult to get to the bottom of illness attributable to PED use. People are not open with it, because of the social stigma associated with PEDs as well as many people do not like admitting when they have done things for so long telling people how it is harmless only to suffer years down the line.
> 
> It is also difficult to attribute onset of problems to a specific cause eg the contributory effect of clenbuterol to cardiomyopathy, or androgens on atherosclerosis. In addition PED users are often taking complex stacks whose components are frequently changing. There is also little quatitative monitoring throughout use eg( blood works ), until serious problems have resulted. The science cannot directly apportion blame, the steroid haters will blame all woes on AAS, whilst many users oft live in a state of total denial.
> 
> ...


Although it may seem that I'm demonizing steroids (due to the somewhat subjective nature of the studies I've posted), but this was more or less my point.

Information on BB forums compared to medical literature is usually contradictory, and fair enough the truth probably lies somewhere in the middle.. and yes the present information available makes it difficult, nigh on impossible to conclude concrete facts, but that is all we have to go on.

But for people to dismiss the dangers of steroids is naive and counterproductive. If people accepted and talked openly about these issues it may benefit others (especially new users)


----------



## Acee (Jan 21, 2010)

You pay ya money and take ya choice or chance.

Anything taken to excess will kill you, too much water will kill you, most poisons are not lethal in small doses but can accumulate.

Whats your poisen? I'm happy with mine and do you know what I'm strong as hell and look great.

Be sensible


----------



## Joshua (Aug 21, 2008)

Smitch said:


> I think everyone here knows the risks that they are taking through doing steroids but believe the benefits outweigh the risks and the risk is worth taking.
> 
> I don't think any of us truly believe that they don't harm us at all, well i'd hope not anyway!!!


The problem is that many people whilst they believe that they know the risks, they do not have any sort of understanding of the risks relative to other things in their lives (alcohol, tobacco, driving a car, flying in a plane, etc). This btw is not exclusive to bodybuilders and PED use, but seems to be human nature.

I suspect that this is compounded by age in many young people (poor appreciation of the types of hazards), or by persecution that people may have received eg( skinny lads who have been bullied or obese people desperate to look better) as they are more susceptible to confirmation bias and their ability to assess risk is seriously impaired.

There is also a very big difference IMHO between the type of agents out there and the risks they have in isolation or when integrated in a stack. Legality is no measure of risk to health IMO - several stack type sup products in the US were withdrawn after negative interactions were found between the components, which is unsurprising as many of them were thrown together with little appreciation of the interactions.

Most days when I log on here I have seen questions from newbies asking what is the best roid or the slightly better question of is there any problem between agent x and y - to which there tends to be an affirmative response only if the two are likely to kill you on the spot or if they are redundant. There is little understanding or even motivation to consider how things interact, not only to minimise sides but to optimise results whilst minimising risks.

JMHO,

J


----------



## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

Eloquent and to the point Joshua in both posts in this thread... can't add anything so shall just agree :thumbup1:


----------



## Shaun Dinosaur (Jul 27, 2010)

Shaun Davis, caught an infection whilst dieting, immune system low and suppressed, killed my kidneys, had I have not had this I would be still bodybuilding.

You only have to ask lol

Shaun Dinosaur Davis

SPAM AGAIN AND YOU ARE BANNED.


----------



## Shaun Dinosaur (Jul 27, 2010)

What a bunch of crap, ban me you muppet, who are you anyway, go ahead and let people say what they want, its why respected bodybuilders are going elsewhere and your members are getting the wrong information,

Shaun Dinosaur Davis

Mr. UK

Mr. Britain

Mr. Europe

Mr. Universe

Pro-Mr. Universe

Nabba & I.F.BB-Pro


----------



## huge monguss (Apr 5, 2011)

sizar said:


> Don't kill the guy for saying his planing to be a pro. Everyone plans for things but doesn't mean it happens in this life time. maybe after life never know lol
> 
> i plan to win the national lottery next week lol you see my point


Aww them were my plans to


----------



## The Big Dog (Jul 13, 2009)

How disgusting. Banning a pro for correcting you. You should be ashamed. A wealth of knowledge gone from the forum for someones pettiness.


----------



## musclebubble (Jul 2, 2011)

synthetic steroids & their derivatives without a shadow of doubt put you at much higher risk of disease and illness. Some individuals it effects more severly , some not so much, and many side effects show up 10-20 yrs down the line.

You just cannot put some synthetic hormone in your body, play around with your endocrine system, and expect everything will be rosey. Heart damage,liver damage, & increaed risk of cancer are some of the more harsher side effects.

i dont know for sure, but i reckone its 50-50, 50 percent of individuals will experience serious side effects , & , 50 percent will get away with it or just experience minor side effects.

Ive read many articles of young adults who have died throughout the past 2-3 decades (some famous, some regular people) , between the ages of 18-35, who were using/abusing performance inhancing drugs. The pro-roiders will always try to latch on to some heriditerary or pre-existing reason for the deaths of these individuals, but that doesnt wash with me. (More often than not its the synthetic drugs that are the cause).

IMHO If you are not competing in Mr Olympia & pro bodybuilding is not your livelihood(i doubt anyone here is), if you are gonna use steroids use it very moderately and stay off the harsher compounds. I dont understand this culture on these sites , people trying outdo each other by the amount of drugs and different concotions of drugs they use. Its very stupid & dangerous.

Look you mess with GODs creation and normal course of life, you get a good slap round the neck. All these steroid, GHs , insulin etc.. is unatural and foreign to the human body,and will show up somewhere somehow, eventually. Unless you are very lucky


----------



## musclebubble (Jul 2, 2011)

a study few years ago in America showed young Black men had twice the rate of prostate cancer compared to young white men . They had on average 15% higher total T & 13% higher free tetosterone. A 15% difference in circulating testosterone levels could readily explain a twofold difference in prostate cancer risk.

now imagine that, we are only talking 10%-15% of higher T levels, yet they have twice as many cases of Prostate cancer then white men, Now compare that to the amounts people on here use, 500% -2000% of a normal individuals T . & other harsher drugs too. Wtf do people expect?? Its gonna be a happy ending? its big game of russian roulette you playing with your health.

again keep things moderate and try and use mainly safer compounds. Try and focus more about your training, diet, and hard work & dedication then quick fix drugs. If you choose to steer clear of drugs then that would be the ideal scenario


----------



## darksider (Apr 5, 2011)

musclebubble said:


> synthetic steroids & their derivatives without a shadow of doubt put you at much higher risk of disease and illness. Some individuals it effects more severly , some not so much, and many side effects show up 10-20 yrs down the line.
> 
> You just cannot put some synthetic hormone in your body, play around with your endocrine system, and expect everything will be rosey. Heart damage,liver damage, & increaed risk of cancer are some of the more harsher side effects.
> 
> ...


This is your opinion personally I think some prescription drugs do more damage to the body than steroids granted there has been a link to one oral steroid and cysts on the liver with prolonged abuse not use but other than that look at the damage that the common paracetamol has done over the years due to misuse.


----------



## Mars (Aug 25, 2007)

The Big Dog said:


> How disgusting. Banning a pro for correcting you. You should be ashamed. A wealth of knowledge gone from the forum for someones pettiness.


I banned a member, who i already gave two chances too, you don't know the full story, not that it's any of your business, read the rules, you are obviously unaware of them.


----------



## The Big Dog (Jul 13, 2009)

mars1960 said:


> I banned a member, who i already gave two chances too, you don't know the full story, not that it's any of your business, read the rules, you are obviously unaware of them.


Ok mars. I'm Sorry but then to send me a private message threatening to ban me!! The message is as follows-

banning

Mind your own business, you don't know the full story and spamming isn't allowed and at 84 posts in 12 months i didn't see that much info and just because he is/was a pro bodybuilder doesn't mean fcuk all.

Dont question MODS decisions or you can follow him.


----------



## DiggyV (May 6, 2011)

Tinytom said:


> You Know EVERYTHING there is about competing?
> 
> Well lets stack that with some of your gems of advice
> 
> ...


Spot on Tom - reps for this.

Cheers

D


----------



## Mars (Aug 25, 2007)

The Big Dog said:


> Ok mars. I'm Sorry but then to send me a private message threatening to ban me!! The message is as follows-
> 
> banning
> 
> ...


Appology accepted.


----------



## The Big Dog (Jul 13, 2009)

Thats a weight off my mind big man.


----------



## Dinosaur (Aug 4, 2011)

Thats a weight off my mind big man.

Gareth Get the weight in your hand lol not on your mind

Shaun


----------



## manaja (Feb 10, 2008)

They all have a negative effect whatever excuse they come up with, Flex with an inherited blah blah etc, My point is , if your going to use something , you are going to have a sde effect be it acne , mood swings whatever, if you have an inherited condition, then it can worsen the problem.

These top pros in "Great shape " are actually wrecks, they cant run , jog or anything that requires any stamina for a long period of time.

Some of the guys on here who compete are nowhere near to a pro,s size , the amount of junk a pro takes isnt just heavy for you , its heavy on your wallet too.

I know a guy on here who competes (amateur) and he,s having gear related problems , he, 40, so lets not fool ourselves with "underlying genetic factors".

Do a couple cycles and see how depenedent you become on it.


----------



## The Big Dog (Jul 13, 2009)

Dinosaur said:


> Thats a weight off my mind big man.
> 
> Gareth Get the weight in your hand lol not on your mind
> 
> Shaun


I was being sarcastic but I will not stand for it. It's a public forum and to be fair there is some good info which has really helped me plus lots of other.

I won't have some nobody tell me that a Pro bodybuilders view means fck all.

I put it down to green eyes but hay!

Rant over and going back on subject...... Why don't you guys ask Shaun about his experiences as a Pro BB. Then we can have the facts and not assumptions.


----------



## Dinosaur (Aug 4, 2011)

Be careful the mans 215lbs so clearly knows all there is to know

Shaun Dinosaur Davis


----------



## Dinosaur (Aug 4, 2011)

These top pros in "Great shape " are actually wrecks, they cant run , jog or anything that requires any stamina for a long period of time.

Some of the guys on here who compete are nowhere near to a pro,s size , Steve Redgrave 5 times olympic champion tried to run a marathon and was shocking, really struggled, why because his body wasnt used to it, so stamina is specific to the sport, I never wanted to Jog

At 300lbs why would you want to run, a marathon runner cant bench 500lbs lol,and believe me they are still wrescks, anyone who trains at the top level, in there chosen sport takes a bashing, Tiger Woods walks around a golf course yet knee ankle back problems.

Shaun Dinosaur Davis


----------



## Dinosaur (Aug 4, 2011)

This is what makes me laugh Mars 1960 215lbs of owns own business, is a Mod and bans me for placing my web address under my name, now they sensor my picture, yet they allow guys to talk about stuff and people they havnt got a clue about, i.e. my Good friend Flex Wheeler, and that Fitness is specific pmsl cant run or jog,

Shaun Dinosaur Davis

www.din-ooops not allowed .com


----------



## The Big Dog (Jul 13, 2009)

Lmao @ Tiger Woods! That's made my day thinking of TW's back & knee problems with all the birds he's holed in one!!!

Pure class!


----------



## sizar (Nov 13, 2008)

omg this thread is so old .. i didn't know people still argueing about this.


----------



## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

i have always said who cares what the Pro's take it makes no difference because if we took the same we would not look like them....as for the running post made by Manaja you might want to look on youtube for the video if levrone sprinting the 100m when he was 250+lbs......then come back and tell me big pro's can't run....


----------



## Nocarbs (Aug 5, 2011)

Pscarb said:


> i have always said who cares what the Pro's take it makes no difference because if we took the same we would not look like them....as for the running post made by Manaja you might want to look on youtube for the video if levrone sprinting the 100m when he was 250+lbs......then come back and tell me big pro's can't run....


Dam that dude can run


----------



## laurie g (Nov 28, 2008)

im heavy- and i can run, 60m-100m faster then most if anyone wants a race??


----------



## Team Dinosaur (Aug 5, 2011)

Pscarb said:


> i have always said who cares what the Pro's take it makes no difference because if we took the same we would not look like them....as for the running post made by Manaja you might want to look on youtube for the video if levrone sprinting the 100m when he was 250+lbs......then come back and tell me big pro's can't run....


At last an intelligent response, why becasue Paul is a Professional bodybuilder and knows his stuff, can I not be banned now, as it appears sarcasm and humour is no longer allowed by Mars 1960, ffs get a life.

Team Dinosaur


----------



## Mars (Aug 25, 2007)

Team Dinosaur said:


> At last an intelligent response, why becasue Paul is a Professional bodybuilder and knows his stuff, can I not be banned now, as it appears sarcasm and humour is no longer allowed by Mars 1960, ffs get a life.
> 
> Team Dinosaur


You can read this when you sign up again for the 5th time.

Humour is more than welcome on the forum as is a bit of friendly sarcasm, however commenting on posts solely for the purpose of promoting your own supplement company is not. I did warn you politely in a PM that you would be banned if you continued but sadly you felt that the appropriate response to that was for you to be abusive and insulting, that isn't tolerated on this forum or any other forum either.


----------



## Papa Lazarou (Jul 4, 2007)

musclebubble said:


> a study few years ago in America showed young Black men had twice the rate of prostate cancer compared to young white men . They had on average 15% higher total T & 13% higher free tetosterone. A 15% difference in circulating testosterone levels could readily explain a twofold difference in prostate cancer risk.
> 
> now imagine that, we are only talking 10%-15% of higher T levels, yet they have twice as many cases of Prostate cancer then white men, Now compare that to the amounts people on here use, 500% -2000% of a normal individuals T . & other harsher drugs too. Wtf do people expect?? Its gonna be a happy ending? its big game of russian roulette you playing with your health.
> 
> again keep things moderate and try and use mainly safer compounds. Try and focus more about your training, diet, and hard work & dedication then quick fix drugs. If you choose to steer clear of drugs then that would be the ideal scenario


Any studies you have on this to prove your claims at a little?

Also, its a big jump to say cancer is black men is caused by the test in their bodies against anything in their lives. Perhaps you could say standing of living? Or where they live? Affluence levels? You are claiming a lot with very little back up.


----------



## infernal0988 (Jun 16, 2011)

Called bull**** on this thread at first page


----------

