# Clean bulking/staying lean and bulking



## MarkFranco

*This is what Jim Wendler had to say on the subject*

*Jason:* Some guru's tell us that it's possible to gain huge amounts of muscle and still eat extremely clean and stay under ten percent body fat all year. What's your opinion of this?

*Jim:* I don't think that's possible to gain huge amounts of muscle without the use of G.H. and anabolic steroids. This is especially true for an advanced athlete that eats very clean. For most people, that's just not reality. There are genetically gifted people that can do this, but let's be honest; how many people do you know that can achieve this?

So with that in mind, how many out there have done a clean bulk and actually made any decent gains???


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## kevo

I am at the moment on 3600 a day, all clean.


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## MarkFranco

What BF% you at? how long have you been bulking? 3600 calories is like 7/800 calories over my BMR so its not that much of a increase

I dont see how its possible to bulk effectively (gain huge amounts) withouth putting on fat


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## Lois_Lane

Fvck gaining tons fat.

Here is a rule if you can't see all 6 abbs in the mirror go and make your self puke you fat little pig!

Any way what's all this stuff about Wendler he is a very fat pler who ended up with health problems if i remember correctly and if he didn't most of the plers who used this bulk method did get health problems.


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## Raptor

I can gain size on clean foods easy but then again if i wanted to i could gain 3 stone of sh!t in 12 weeks but i like to keep it clean (i use gear though)


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## MarkFranco

What are abs? ive heard of them but never seen them, surely if your bulking on say 5000calories, 5000 calories is going to make you add fat no matter where its coming from?

The point is, im sure some people can do it, but for most is it really possible to make good gains while staying lean (10%bf)

Surely the average person would benefit better in putting lots of muscle in shorter time by eating lots, not worrying about abs and calorie counting and just trying build mass, then slimming down?

Its like trying do 2 goals at once


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## Raptor

Imo its best to kind of separate cutting / bulking... when i cut, i cut hard and used to bulk hard but im happy with my mass now so just lean bulk


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## MarkFranco

If your happy with your size it makes sense to just eat cleaner (I dont like the word cleaner, because im not suggesting eating 10 tubs of ice cream) surely its not a bulk though? Just a maintainence diet? if your not putting on fat you must have to work out with such precision what/how much you need to eat just to feed the muscle to make them grow?


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## Lois_Lane

MarkFranco said:


> What are abs? ive heard of them but never seen them, surely if your bulking on say 5000calories, 5000 calories is going to make you add fat no matter where its coming from?
> 
> The point is, im sure some people can do it, but for most is it really possible to make good gains while staying lean (10%bf)
> 
> Surely the average person would benefit better in putting lots of muscle in shorter time by eating lots, not worrying about abs and calorie counting and just trying build mass, then slimming down?
> 
> Its like trying do 2 goals at once


 True 10% bf is like being close to contest condition mate, i assume you are talking about 10% of sub q fat which certainly is not total fat.

You simply will not put on more muscle by eating gross amounts of food.

What you will do is fvck your insulin sensitivity up and then gain less muscle and more fat

You will notice pretty much all top bb's don't get "fat" they get really bloated but are still leaner than most average bb's in the gym.

As long as the body has the amino acids, fats and fuel needed to grow it will.

Muscle gains come very slowly and you can't force them by over eating.


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## MarkFranco

Yeah by 10% i mean looking at some one and guessing there BF, not having them in a pod and seeing how much internal fat they have etc

Surely in a bulking phase though for the typical, average BB/weightlifter it would be more beneficial for them in the bulking phase to not worry if they ended up hitting the 20%/full house margin


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## Raptor

Lois_Lane said:


> True 10% bf is like being close to contest condition mate, i assume you are talking about 10% of sub q fat which certainly is not total fat.
> 
> You simply will not put on more muscle by eating gross amounts of food.
> 
> What you will do is fvck your insulin sensitivity up and then gain less muscle and more fat
> 
> You will notice pretty much all top bb's don't get "fat" they get really bloated but are still leaner than most average bb's in the gym.


Agreed, would you say that you should not eat until your actually hungry?

Some of my mates are sick after eating as they forced it in, i never force but am bigger than some of the forcefeeders... what do you recan mate?

I hate feeling bloated


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## Lois_Lane

MarkFranco said:


> Yeah by 10% i mean looking at some one and guessing there BF, not having them in a pod and seeing how much internal fat they have etc
> 
> Surely in a bulking phase though for the typical, average BB/weightlifter it would be more beneficial for them in the bulking phase to not worry if they ended up hitting the 20%/full house margin


 Nope not at all needed.

In fact it is very possible to grow while dieting so if that's possible why would you need to gain tons of fat to grow it makes no common sense:confused1:

^^^Raptor the only thing i would force down me is protein. I for one find it hard to eat a lot of meat so that is often forced down. As far as forcing carbs and fats down, no chance in hell the body will tell you when it needs more fuel.


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## MarkFranco

I guess im just trying to justify been fat, but reading what Jim put was interesting

Today I have eaten

80g oats, 30g whey, 400ml skimmed milk

4 bits of bacon, 1 egg (only had one egg)

125g rice, 100g tuna

off to gym soon then ill be having

60g oats, 30g whey, 400ml skimmed milk

Chicken, feta cheese, 2 tomatos

Not a bad day for me in fairness, ill get hungry in the middle of the night though craving oreos or something


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## gujkhan

i have always lean bulked even though eating like a horse around 4k a day i struggle to add on weight in the past year i have prob put on around 3-4kg majority lean so cant be too disappointed


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## Little_Jay

after seeing alot of your posts mark, im begining to agree, im not blessed, never been properly lean, was fat about 4 years ago, then lost alot of weoght and was skinny/fat, now im about 16% bodyfat i would say, and i cant decide just bulk bulk or try this "clean bulk" now i do eat clean, but i might just start eating lots more of it


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## Lois_Lane

MarkFranco said:


> I guess im just trying to justify been fat, but reading what Jim put was interesting
> 
> Today I have eaten
> 
> 80g oats, 30g whey, 400ml skimmed milk
> 
> 4 bits of bacon, 1 egg (only had one egg)
> 
> 125g rice, 100g tuna
> 
> off to gym soon then ill be having
> 
> 60g oats, 30g whey, 400ml skimmed milk
> 
> Chicken, feta cheese, 2 tomatos
> 
> Not a bad day for me in fairness, ill get hungry in the middle of the night though craving oreos or something


 You see this day is lacking not too much.

I would have upped the eggs to 5, the tuna to 250 grams, whey to 50 grams, chicken to 250 grams.......get a proper amount of protein down your neck and see how much you want those cookies, if you still really want them have a couple


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## MarkFranco

Lois_Lane said:


> You see this day is lacking not too much.
> 
> I would have upped the eggs to 5, the tuna to 250 grams, whey to 50 grams, chicken to 250 grams.......get a proper amount of protein down your neck and see how much you want those cookies, if you still really want them have a couple


Ive gone off tuna and rice and struggle to eat alot of it so cut my portions down to save wasting any

The only reason I had 1 egg is because thats all that was left, ****es me off, why leave just 1? What the hell can you do with 1 egg? I usually have 4 at the very least

I might try upping protein, I think alot of the time I eat out of bordom, seem so its later at night that I eat junk


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## Lois_Lane

MarkFranco said:


> Ive gone off tuna and rice and struggle to eat alot of it so cut my portions down to save wasting any
> 
> The only reason I had 1 egg is because thats all that was left, ****es me off, why leave just 1? What the hell can you do with 1 egg? I usually have 4 at the very least
> 
> I might try upping protein, I think alot of the time I eat out of bordom, seem so its later at night that I eat junk


 Get a chicken breast down your throat then:beer:


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## 54und3r5

Jim wendler, was a successful powerlifter but didn't have a physique anyone would strive for to be fair. Equally I'm sure I read somewhere about him having to lose loads of weights due to health problems..

He isn't a person I would take nutritional advice from to be fair!


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## MarkFranco

Yeah, he had health problems, apparently couldnt walk 40 yards without having to stop but he totalled over 2300 and squatted over 1000, benched 600 I would love to do those

His physique isnt that bad these days to be fair, defo looks like a mother ****er who can lift weights

One of the physiques that actually got me to start strength training/lifting weight to get bigger is MMA fighter Jeff Monson, alot of people wouldnt say his body is that great but oh well


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## Nemises

con im sure you have tried a dirty bulk. Did you not make good gains?


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## MarkFranco

Also i guess the point of this thread has been lost, its not whats best, not whch you prefer, not which one you look better during but which one gave you the most gains?


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## 54und3r5

What do you class as gains though? For a powerlifter that would be putting on strength, for a bodybuilder that would be putting on muscle!

doing a dirty bulk, your gonna put a lot of mass on but will have to cut down all that lard to compete, seems an inefficient way of time and also unhealthy. I know I keep banging on about 'health' but being healthy is an important aspect of training for me!


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## MarkFranco

Just asking for peoples personal exp so if it dont work for you and your goals then thats understandable, so either strength gains and/or muscle growth

It doesnt seem a very popular route for people on here, but if it is more effective towards your goal surely some times the health risks are worth it

There is allways some tax to pay in life I guess, to be the best athlete you wanna be if thats body building, powerlifting im sure theres a point where your health has to take a hammering

Nearly all top level athletes, rugby/NFL players for example will of had to have surgerys and such for damaged joints/muscles and such


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## MarkFranco

Jeff Monson wasnt/isnt slow, but people think hes boring, he uses his size and strength and Jitz to basically smoother his opponents, but I like the guy and he looks like a mean mofo.

My main goal is to increase my lifts because I wanna do some PL meets so im willing to sacrifice looks for strength, in terms of health im doing Interval training and trying to eat a little cleaner


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## Lois_Lane

Nemises said:


> con im sure you have tried a dirty bulk. Did you not make good gains?


 Oh i made great gains in ldl cholesterol and blood pressure in fact i made gains of a life time in those two they were so impressive i nearly called bb a day :thumbup1: As far as muscle gains not at all in fact i ended up gaining a bit of muscle during my diet which was the hardest diet i ever had done to lose 45lb i wouldn't wish that experience on my worst enemy:cursing:

Oh and just to show how fat i was here is a picture and i bet its not nearly as fat as many guys get.......god help them when it comes time to diet

P.S. before any one comments on my face i have rosacia (sp) and always have had red cheeks


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## kingy_88

@ Con, fat i would defo not call that fat and if that is fat i need to seriously worrie lol


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## Lois_Lane

kingy_88 said:


> @ Con, fat i would defo not call that fat and if that is fat i need to seriously worrie lol


 Took about 4 months and 45lb lost to get into shape bud.

You prove my point perfectly people simply fail to realize just how fat and how much fat they have and need to lose to be in shape.


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## MarkFranco

FAT???? I think your the biggest anoxeria sufferer if you think thats fat


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## Little_Jay

thats deffo not fat! and surely it wouldnt take 4 months because look at this mans excellent progress in 13 weeks?http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/member-journals-pictures/114513-13-hardcore-weeks-cutting-pics.html


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## HJL

doesnt look fat to me, you have more definition in your traps, and pecks than me! and vascularity on biceps!

I try to eat clean, but most meals i have a sauce thats sugary, or some white bread. oh and probs 30pints a week lol.


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## kingy_88

Lois_Lane said:


> Took about 4 months and 45lb lost to get into shape bud.
> 
> You prove my point perfectly people simply fail to realize just how fat and how much fat they have and need to lose to be in shape.


i think non bodybuilder/normal people have no idea how much fat they have but i certainly know i am carrying to much fat. luckly im naturally very wide so i carry it ok.

im about to start my first cycle and plan on adding plenty of mass over the last 2 years so see no point in getting to 12% untill i got the mass, plus xmas aint to far away, bring on the grub :thumb:


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## Lois_Lane

scouse_jay said:


> thats deffo not fat! and surely it wouldnt take 4 months because look at this mans excellent progress in 13 weeks?http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/member-journals-pictures/114513-13-hardcore-weeks-cutting-pics.html


 LMAO buddy that guy started with less fat overall because he is MUCH smaller. Once you have a good bit of muscle it takes a long time to look sloppy fat as the muscle gives shapes to the fat.

Also that guy made good progress but was not even close to contest condition in any shape or form.

As to you guys who don't think that's fat fair enough. I am talking about bodybuilding though and for bodybuilding standards that is fat as fvck.


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## Lois_Lane

Just to stay realistic, here is what i looked like in shape and not covered in lard......bit of a difference you say? Bf in this picture is about 8%


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## Little_Jay

yerr massive differnce, but as you say this i for contest and so! if i could look like your firt picture anytime soon i would be made up! haha


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## Der

I really dont see whats the point of a dirty bulk. Lets say my maintenance is 2700 cal. I eat 3300-3500 in order to build muscle. If I can get it from clean food, which I know I can, since that is what I have been doing for a while now, why not do it? Obviously I can go and pig out in McDonalds and get 5000 "dirty calories". This would cause a much bigger calorie surplus, but whats the point? There will not be a huge amount of difference between 700 cals surplus (which is quite a lot tbh) and 2000. You cant "force feed" the muscle and make it grow by force feeding them. The only difference this massive 2k surplus is going to cause is higher cholesterol levels etc, which are unhealthy.

In one of the pics in my profile I am pretty fat (by Lois's standards, prob around 16% bf), after that I have been cutting for 3 damn month in order to get to 9-10% bf and it was painful. Trust me, that is coming from a person who was around 30% bf at the age of 15 (yes I was a fat 98 kg, 165 cm kid). It is well worth eating clean, now I almost never cheat on my diet. My gf actually made me eat some biscuits a few weeks ago.. And it was horrible! after 3-5 cookies I was so full for the next few hours that I have missed a proper meal. Will not do that again.

I really like this article about bulking

http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/sports_body_training_performance/the_truth_about_bulking


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## MarkFranco

Apparnetly dietry cholesterol has no effect on blood cholesterol, its mostly BP which would be the worry


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## dtlv

I can't comment on how AAS use changes things but for me I've only dirty bulked once and didn't get on with it... didn't grow any extra muscle compared to lean bulking, just lost sight of my abs and got zits. Overall I probably reduced my net gains for the year by then having to spend a few months dieting and not gaining as well as I would had I just lean bulked the whole time.

For me best gains are actually when i concentrate less on calories and more on eating really good quality nutritious food - I found an interesting article about bulking a while ago that talked about this and suggested that the reason why some people only seem to grow at their best when they bulk dirty is because they need about 4-5 thousand calories of food a day to get the required nutrients into them to allow reasonable muscle growth... their diets are normally so high on calories yet low on nutrients they need this amount of food to get the efas, vitamins, minerals etc required for optimal growth... the need for which is of course INCREASED anyway on a dirty bulk to offset the potential problems (liver stress, cholesterol issues, poor omega 3/6 ratio, insulin insensitivity etc) that occur more readily from constant caloric overloading.


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## Lois_Lane

MarkFranco said:


> Apparnetly dietry cholesterol has no effect on blood cholesterol, its mostly BP which would be the worry


 Actually it does to an extent of around 30% but its not fat that is the worry. Sugars increase LDL cholesterol and most bulks are filled with sugars.

But you obviously know it all so go ahead and dirty bulk to your hearts content lol


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## MarkFranco

Lois_Lane said:


> Actually it does to an extent of around 30% but its not fat that is the worry. Sugars increase LDL cholesterol and most bulks are filled with sugars.
> 
> But you obviously know it all so go ahead and dirty bulk to your hearts content lol


Just what I heard and is why I said apparently, also I dont eat alot of sugar/sugary stuff.

Im into steaks, burgers, BBQ ribs, bacon, fried chicken, chinese all you can eat, lasange, stuff like that


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## dtlv

Big topic LDL cholesterol, lots of factors involved, but as Lois says carbs can potentially be one of the main problems... not carbs from fruit and veg, but large quantities of artificial sucrose overloading the liver with glucose faster than it can store it as glycogen... this means the body has no choice but to convert the glucose to triglycerides and at the same time synthesise some extra LDL to help transport those triglycerides.

Dietary cholesterol is actually important for fat digestion as around 70% of it is used to make bile salts which you need to digest big fatty acids... it never even gets into your bloodstream. Its only the remaining 30% or so that gets into your system. On a moderate fat intake with healthy carb intake beside it this 30% is no problem at all (like a clean bulk), but combined with a liver overlaoded with sugar forced to pump out triglycerides and extra LDL (like a dirty bulk), this 30% becomes part of a bigger problem.

Of course LDL particle size and genetics are other factors that determine just how much of a risk factor LDL increases are for each individual, and a high LDL might not be a definite risk factor for all people, but it's still not clever from a health point of view not to give a sh!t.


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## Was_Eric

i am eating very clean (well for me anyway) and i am getting quite fat

a few people are commenting on how fat i look

i take it as a complement because thats my goal


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## MarkFranco

Was_Eric said:


> i am eating very clean (well for me anyway) and i am getting quite fat
> 
> a few people are commenting on how fat i look
> 
> i take it as a complement because thats my goal


To get fat? I like your goals :laugh:

A mate called me fat and I said "well least am getting bigger"

I guess if your on a bulk, your on a bulk and your gonna put some weight on


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## rs007

I tend to get fat in off season.

Its not that I "bulk", in fact I hate the term.

I'm just greedy and lazy :lol:

But here is my take - I have in the past went all out "eating for size". Keep in mind my growth genetics are average - very average.

I seemed to get bigger quicker when stufing my face, but then, how the fvck would I know when I was getting fat just as quick. What you THINK is happening, and what is ACTUALLY happening are often two different things.

But, again, being of average growth genetics, means I have average ability to retain muscle at times of stress - like dieting.

So I might have gained extra muscle by getting heavy - but I lost extra muscle in the race to get the fat off in anything under 6 months. This is on AAS, and with a lot of protein plus ample fuel.

So swings and roundabouts, and I am betting most people are the same.

I'd like to have the dedication to stay lean and make smaller "gains" short term, because I bet more of the gain would be muscle, and less fat, therefore less sh1t to diet off, and less time exposed to risk of muscle loss. All meaning long term, more progress is made rather than yoyo ing up and down.

But like I say, I'm lazy - and greedy :lol:

Hell RK showed me some pics from December and I can't beleive how fvcking fat and moronic I look :lol:

Well, I can beleive the moronic bit right enough - but man, I was fat!


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## MarkFranco

Interesting point, loosing gains by having to diet.

In the interest of my health I am trying to eat healthier, in no way on a diet or a clean bulk (its just my diet, as in what i eat) and have also added 3 HIIT sessions


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## dtlv

rs007 said:


> I tend to get fat in off season.
> 
> Its not that I "bulk", in fact I hate the term.
> 
> I'm just greedy and lazy :lol:
> 
> But here is my take - I have in the past went all out "eating for size". Keep in mind my growth genetics are average - very average.
> 
> I seemed to get bigger quicker when stufing my face, but then, how the fvck would I know when I was getting fat just as quick. What you THINK is happening, and what is ACTUALLY happening are often two different things.
> 
> But, again, being of average growth genetics, means I have average ability to retain muscle at times of stress - like dieting.
> 
> So I might have gained extra muscle by getting heavy - but I lost extra muscle in the race to get the fat off in anything under 6 months. This is on AAS, and with a lot of protein plus ample fuel.
> 
> So swings and roundabouts, and I am betting most people are the same.
> 
> I'd like to have the dedication to stay lean and make smaller "gains" short term, because I bet more of the gain would be muscle, and less fat, therefore less sh1t to diet off, and less time exposed to risk of muscle loss. All meaning long term, more progress is made rather than yoyo ing up and down.
> 
> But like I say, I'm lazy - and greedy :lol:
> 
> Hell RK showed me some pics from December and I can't beleive how fvcking fat and moronic I look :lol:
> 
> Well, I can beleive the moronic bit right enough - but man, I was fat!


Nice post, need to be nicer to more people before I can rep you. Don't know you well enough to comment on the moronic or lazy and greedy bit, but agree with the rest :lol:

I think many people focus too much on the scales and not enough on the mirror. As someone who is ntaurally as skinny as a bean pole I can understand exactly why, and how watching the scales go up by a few lbs every week can be very rewarding and seductive... but it doesn't mean you are actually building a decent amount of muscle at all, and even if you are, at some point when you cut to lose the fat so you can see the muscle properly, you are far more likely to lose some of it or at the very least to slow right down new muscle growth all the time you are cutting.

I hardly weigh myself at all any more, just once every couple of months hop on the scales and and get the calipers out... and I do this more out of interest than anything else, for the majority I let the mirror and how I feel dictate where to take my training and diet.


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