# IF Intermittent Fasting (leangains.com)



## Robbie (Dec 31, 2007)

I picked up a link for Intermittent Fasting and www.leangains.com from here but I don't remember who posted it. Has anyone tried it/using it? I'm planning to give it a go but the guy still hasn't finished his book and I have a couple of questions! What macro breakdown does he recommend using for workout/rest days?


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## Greenspin (Dec 27, 2010)

I am and have been for a while now. bayman does and knows a lot of stuff in general, lol.


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## Robbie (Dec 31, 2007)

How do you find it? What time do you run your fast from - till?


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## Greenspin (Dec 27, 2010)

I think the general theme of his macros goes:

Protein at a constant

Workout days, moderate fat/ moderate to high CHO

Rest days, moderate to high fat/ low CHO (incidental CHO from things like cottage cheese, fibrous veg etc)


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## Robbie (Dec 31, 2007)

Greenspin said:


> I think the general theme of his macros goes:
> 
> Protein at a constant
> 
> ...


Hmmm, Im not so keen on high fat. Do you think it would matter much running higher carb intake?


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## Greenspin (Dec 27, 2010)

I love it mate. I don't follow it exactly how Martin lays out, but I do follow it mostly. I also fast for 24 hours twice a week on rest days. I break the fast at 2pm, but that is with more of a snack than a massive meal, then have a bigger meal at 6 ish. I start the fast when I go to bed, so around 11pm.

I think it is great. There is so much time to do stuff, and so little stress about when and how to eat!


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## Greenspin (Dec 27, 2010)

Robbie said:


> Hmmm, Im not so keen on high fat. Do you think it would matter much running higher carb intake?


If you are getting sufficient essential fats in, and you are in a calorie deficit, then you would still loss weight. But I think keeping a good amount of fat in the diet is a beneficial thing for general health.


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## Robbie (Dec 31, 2007)

Cool, I've got some iBCAA's on their way from Predator so once they have arrived its on! Going for a 9/10pm - 12pm fast with training done at 6am. I'm thinking I will start taking a 1hr lunch from 12 which will let me get a good feed on!


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## Greenspin (Dec 27, 2010)

What don't you like about high fat, out of interest. And it is not high fat as in, eating huge amounts of fat, just high compared to fat/CHO ratio within the context of your macro needs.


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## Robbie (Dec 31, 2007)

Greenspin said:


> If you are getting sufficient essential fats in, and you are in a calorie deficit, then you would still loss weight. But I think keeping a good amount of fat in the diet is a beneficial thing for general health.


 I'm not in deficit... Looking to add weight...


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## Robbie (Dec 31, 2007)

Greenspin said:


> What don't you like about high fat, out of interest. And it is not high fat as in, eating huge amounts of fat, just high compared to fat/CHO ratio within the context of your macro needs.


 Mainly it makes me feel like crap! All lazy and lethargic. I've had quite a low fat diet for the last 10 months or so and never felt better.


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## Greenspin (Dec 27, 2010)

Robbie said:


> I'm not in deficit... Looking to add weight...


Fair play, still, when gaining weight, if you are gaining with a reasonable surplus, you will not be eating ludicrous portions of fat.


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## Greenspin (Dec 27, 2010)

Robbie said:


> Mainly it makes me feel like crap! All lazy and lethargic. I've had quite a low fat diet for the last 10 months or so and never felt better.


Yeah, I am similar TBH. I like CHO. I enjoy eating fats, but find I am less energized by them. Still, I find my current diet sufficient in fats, and high enough in CHO for me to be happy. It's all trial and error.


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## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

I've been using it for about 3 years. More of a lifestyle than a diet, results have been as good if not better than a standard diet.

Great FAQ here: http://examine.com/leangains-faq/

And this PDF should answer most questions too: http://doubleyourgains.com/musclebuildingmastermind/The_Leangains_Approach_Final.pdf

Happy to answer any specific questions.


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## Fatstuff (Mar 2, 2010)

Have used it, have taken a lot from it mentally which is the main thing. Don't use any form of IF at the moment as I'm struggling to get my kcals in as it is, but if I wake up and don't feel like eating, I won't panic thinking my muscles will drop off. It helped me lose a fair amount of fat and has it's place for definite.I will use again whilst dieting in the new year. Good luck, this will open ur eyes


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## Robbie (Dec 31, 2007)

Today was the first day for me, 12 o clock first meal couldn't come quick enough!!


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## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

Robbie said:


> Today was the first day for me, 12 o clock first meal couldn't come quick enough!!


It'll get easier, Gherlin (hunger hormone) can become entrained to any meal frequency, so after a few days it'll adjust to your new meal frequency and you won't feel hungry during the fast.

If you continue to have issues, coffee and other stims help, but if it becomes "too much" for you and starts effecting training etc then IF might not be for you.


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## Robbie (Dec 31, 2007)

Thanks, it wasn't so bad to be honest. Mint tea and water (an busy work) helped! I do training of some sort every day pretty much so not sure what to do about the below maintence days?


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## Fatstuff (Mar 2, 2010)

i used to have one coffee, 2 sweeteners and a teeny splash of miilk or a can of coke zero


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## Greenspin (Dec 27, 2010)

I loved the first days of fasting. The excitement of not eat (stupid as it sounds) and then the food hit that made me feel slightly inebriated. But as bayman says, you get used to it. I could eat during my fasting, but now it does not feel right on a physical level. I feel as though my body is not in a state that would accommodate the digestion of food (it would though). 2pm used to seem like ages away, now its still 2pm, but I have gotten a truckload done. I simple don't think to eat before then.

Plus, IMO, stims work much more effectively during the fast (including Pre W/O sups). And if you are taking a strong stim during the fast, the food load post fast seems to help to resume a normal state of being. And training it's self feels much more comfortable. But not in a way you'd notice unless you where used to training with a load of food in your belly. Like being healthy, you don't necessarily feel like a glowing ball of pure health, but more notice that you feel good again after not feeling so great.


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

I just tried the "eat everything in four hours, fast 16 hours" version for two months. Didn't intend to do it as a weight loss diet, kcals were aimed at maintence. Didn't have many issues with hunger, which surprised me somewhat, but did have an issue with digestional discomfort - eating over 2500 kcals in four hours absolutely fcuked my digestive system up - acid reflux (didn't even get that as bad when I had a hiatus hernia), farting like a gas station, and uncomfortable bloated abdomen always in the six hours or so after starting to eat. Overall I also found I wasn't able to reach my target of maintenence calories which was a pain for my personal goals on the diet, but reversing that one negative to a positive for someone who is looking to use such a diet to lose weight am sure it would help kerb overall eating.

Fasting for a complete 24 hours a once or twice a week is my prefered way to do IF from what I've tried and having a go at right now - not strictly the leangains approach but with ideas taken from there.


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## Greenspin (Dec 27, 2010)

Dtlv74 said:


> I just tried the "eat everything in four hours, fast 16 hours" version for two months. Didn't intend to do it as a weight loss diet, kcals were aimed at maintence. Didn't have many issues with hunger, which surprised me somewhat, but did have an issue with digestional discomfort - eating over 2500 kcals in four hours absolutely fcuked my digestive system up - acid reflux (didn't even get that as bad when I had a hiatus hernia), farting like a gas station, and uncomfortable bloated abdomen always in the six hours or so after starting to eat. Overall I also found I wasn't able to reach my target of maintenence calories which was a pain for my personal goals on the diet, but reversing that one negative to a positive for someone who is looking to use such a diet to lose weight am sure it would help kerb overall eating.
> 
> Fasting for a complete 24 hours a once or twice a week is my prefered way to do IF from what I've tried and having a go at right now - not strictly the leangains approach but with ideas taken from there.


I fast from when I hit the hay to 2pm x5, and then fast for 24 hours apx. x2 a week. Love it. I am also in a weight gaining faze. Might sound a little crazy, but it is work very nicely, and I feel good! As far as digestive discomfort, I have eliminated Gluten containing foods (mostly), stopped eating cottage cheese (I noticed this gave me particular digestive discomfort), I generally don't use milk at the moment, and the biggest breakthrough was stopping using mint containing oral hygine products. I can now eat a ship load more than my normal fill without any IBS type symptoms. And I feel much better generally (physically and psychologically).

One main point though, is, I am strict as in I stick to the general trend of my diet, but it is liberation of my diet and me freedom to eat when and how I choose. A 24 hour fast will end when I am ready to eat, if that is before when I expect to eat. Leangains wise, I will stop eating when I go to bed, as apposed to 8 hours dead. that is normally 11pm, so my fast is generally a 9 hour feeding period etc.


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## Robbie (Dec 31, 2007)

On your eating days, how many calories over maintenence do you do?


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

I think there's a lot of sense to cyclic eating rather than eating the same every single day. The issue with the four hour eating window version for me was not so much foods that were causing a reaction (my main digestive issue foods are PUFA and long chain sat fat foods which make me feel nauseous when eaten in quantity - have to use mostly monounsaturated fats and MCTs to avoid this on higher fat diets), but simply issues from putting too much into my digestive system in such a short time period - have never been able to eat large meals without discomfort, and this diet caused issues there.

Is funny really but I did a bit of an 'aim to bulk but eat only when hungry' experiment a while back and took a load of notes to see what my natural pattern of eating would become - and without any intent it pretty quickly fell into a consistent pattern of two days eating well, one day of not eating much at all and falling into kcal deficit for the day, and then day four having an appetite for around maintenence kcals. Was slightly more complex than that as dfferent levels of activity on different days would influence it, but that was the base pattern.

Anyway, have always thought after that that the idea of eat the same everyday is somewhat contrived by society and convention but not the natural way humans would eat otherwise. IF a good general dietary philosophy to explore IMO, especially for healthfulness (that's where it's benefit is, moreso than for fat loss I think - other diets can equal it for that).


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## Greenspin (Dec 27, 2010)

Robbie said:


> On your eating days, how many calories over maintenence do you do?


To be honest mate, part of my diet liberation is keeping a record of my daily food habit (as I have done so long its easy and interesting), but only by realistic approximations. Also doing the 24 hour fast means I have a fair bit of leniency on the days that I am in a surplus. But I also eat quite habitually, so my habits will be adjusted by my weigh (and at the moment, that is mostly in the mirror weight), making sure my strength is increasing, and my appearance is pleasing to me (as much as it can). Rest days are like my base diet = Sufficient Protein for my weight, Moderate fats, Low Low-Moderate CHO. On the days I train, I tend to follow the high CHO route, as I enjoy them and it feel nice (note the non scientific point there) and also on this day I eat a little bit more than on rest days in the form of CHO.

I have been dieting etc so long, that I can do this without to much brain power though. And I enjoy the manipulation, so is not a chore. A complicated and hard to follow diet, that takes a lot of mental and physical energy and time = a diet the is hard and not enjoyable = a diet that is hard to adhere to = a bad diet IMO.


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## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

Robbie said:


> Thanks, it wasn't so bad to be honest. Mint tea and water (an busy work) helped! I do training of some sort every day pretty much so not sure what to do about the below maintence days?


Why are you training every day? What's your schedule look like?


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## Justin Cider (Jul 18, 2010)

Within the fasting state, still take on protein shakes or just water/tea?


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## Robbie (Dec 31, 2007)

bayman said:


> Why are you training every day? What's your schedule look like?


Oh I only do a MWF for weights, but do MMA on Tues/Thurs and BJJ on Saturday


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## Robbie (Dec 31, 2007)

BBK said:


> Within the fasting state, still take on protein shakes or just water/tea?


Water, tea, bcaa. Anything thats pretty much 0 cals


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## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

Robbie said:


> Oh I only do a MWF for weights, but do MMA on Tues/Thurs and BJJ on Saturday


Personally, I'd treat the MMA days as lower cals and carbs if you want to recomp. Leangains cycles carbs around weight training, anything else if just straight IF.


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## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

Robbie said:


> Water, tea, bcaa. Anything thats pretty much 0 cals


BCAA only if training fasted. Even they have cals, if only minimal.

As much water and other cal free drinks as you want are permissable though.


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## Justin Cider (Jul 18, 2010)

Gunna have to give this a whirl.

Reading Charles Bronson - Solitary Fitness, he recommends this too... Mind, you he recommends giving yourself a enema also! I'll pass on that one Charlie, mate..


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## Fatstuff (Mar 2, 2010)

BBK said:


> Gunna have to give this a whirl.
> 
> Reading Charles Bronson - Solitary Fitness, he recommends this too... Mind, you he recommends giving yourself a enema also! I'll pass on that one Charlie, mate..


I'll give u a spunk enema if u want


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## Robbie (Dec 31, 2007)

Jeeeesus I am bloody stuffed! 9hours of eating. *burp*


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

intermittent or alternate day fasting is the best way to make use of the fat burning effects of GH.. in fact, I'd go so far as to say the ONLY way..


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## Conscript (Sep 5, 2010)

I'm doing the ADF right now, gh only on fast days, keto+dnp (dropped 20mcg lasix for first 3 days) on feed days...Down 5lbs already!


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## Robbie (Dec 31, 2007)

How would IF effect a cycle? Anything that should be done differently?


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

Robbie said:


> How would IF effect a cycle? Anything that should be done differently?


if you're dieting, won't at all.. AAS retains muscle, and prevents gluconeogenesis (turning protein to glucose for energy) and hence makes the body use even more free fatty acids for energy....

IF you're not in a calorie deficit, you can still bulk I guess- dont forget the effects of AAS is that they retain nitrogen, stopping the excretion of protein or its use for energy when carbs are low...

building muscle happens when you're not catabolic.. so prob not in an overall daily calorie deficit- the timing of calorie consumption wont' effect your cycle..


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## Robbie (Dec 31, 2007)

ausbuilt said:


> if you're dieting, won't at all.. AAS retains muscle, and prevents gluconeogenesis (turning protein to glucose for energy) and hence makes the body use even more free fatty acids for energy....
> 
> IF you're not in a calorie deficit, you can still bulk I guess- dont forget the effects of AAS is that they retain nitrogen, stopping the excretion of protein or its use for energy when carbs are low...
> 
> building muscle happens when you're not catabolic.. so prob not in an overall daily calorie deficit- the timing of calorie consumption wont' effect your cycle..


Maybe Im tired from eating so much but Im not sure any of that made sense!!


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## Conscript (Sep 5, 2010)

The best thing about If/Adf is you only have to cook EOD! Winner!! :thumb:


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

Robbie said:


> Maybe Im tired from eating so much but Im not sure any of that made sense!!


short answer, no need to change the cycle.

1. AAS work by making the body keep protein for muscle making, rather than using it for energy (gluconegenesis) or excreting it.

2. if you're dieting AAS will keep your muscle, even when calories are low, as long as you do eat protein (see 1. above).

3. If you're bulking on IF/ADF, AAS will still help you build muscle, as it doesnt matter if you get all your cals in a small window, they will be used better.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Eat Stop Eat is written by Brad Pilon, he is pretty good too.

EAT-STOP-EAT_BPILON.pdf


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## Rekless (May 5, 2009)

This is a great read on IF

http://www.precisionnutrition.com/intermittent-fasting

easier info to digest than Martin's site...


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## Robbie (Dec 31, 2007)

ausbuilt said:


> short answer, no need to change the cycle.
> 
> 1. AAS work by making the body keep protein for muscle making, rather than using it for energy (gluconegenesis) or excreting it.
> 
> ...


Perfect, thanks for the simpleton version!


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## Greenspin (Dec 27, 2010)

hackskii said:


> Eat Stop Eat is written by Brad Pilon, he is pretty good too.
> 
> View attachment 68330


Brad Pilon seems like a nice guy to!


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Greenspin said:


> Brad Pilon seems like a nice guy to!


He has a podcast on Reality Based Fitness as well.


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## Greenspin (Dec 27, 2010)

hackskii said:


> He has a podcast on Reality Based Fitness as well.


Sad as it is, I don't even know what a podcast is. But I have him on my facebook, and have had a couple of small encounters with him. I've read ESE and The Truth About Protein. Both are long ways of saying very few things, but he has to make money somehow. Plus he obviously puts the work in.

Edit: Small encounters on facebook, not in person!


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

http://realitybasedfitness.com/

You might find the podcast here.


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## Greenspin (Dec 27, 2010)

hackskii said:


> http://realitybasedfitness.com/
> 
> You might find the podcast here.


Awesome! I'll take a look tomorrow, Im going to hit the hay now I think. Must only be like 5-6pm for you?


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

3:00 in the afternoon


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## Greenspin (Dec 27, 2010)

hackskii said:


> 3:00 in the afternoon


Insane. Geography is not a strong point. I thought there was only up to 2 hours difference between here and the USA, lol.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Greenspin said:


> Insane. Geography is not a strong point. I thought there was only up to 2 hours difference between here and the USA, lol.


8 hours... :lol:


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## Fatstuff (Mar 2, 2010)

Greenspin said:


> Awesome! I'll take a look tomorrow, Im going to hit the hay now I think. Must only be like 5-6pm for you?


It's worth a listen mate, the lyle McDonald one is good aswell. stuff u will already know but interesting nonetheless


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## Greenspin (Dec 27, 2010)

hackskii said:


> 8 hours... :lol:


Ok, my excuse was it was late (well maybe for a young child :whistling: ) I actually though it was 5-6 hours, as that was the variation when I went to NYC. Damn Americas big!


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Greenspin said:


> Ok, my excuse was it was late (well maybe for a young child :whistling: ) I actually though it was 5-6 hours, as that was the variation when I went to NYC. Damn Americas big!


It really is huge, I am on the west coast, so this would be the biggest time.

I have had guys wake me up before work because they called me and forgot about the time difference.

It also is good for the board as many times when you guys are in bed, I am still on the board moderating, spammers tend to come out when you guys are sleeping.

They think they are slick spamming the board when I actually am awake watching them.

Lyle has such a simplistic approach to dieting, he is so easy and fun to listen to, quite refreshing as he takes all the complicated crap being spewed and makes it very simplified, but I think the pod cast is a couple of hours long:lol:


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

hackskii said:


> It really is huge, I am on the west coast, so this would be the biggest time.
> 
> I have had guys wake me up before work because they called me and forgot about the time difference.
> 
> ...


Although am in the UK right now I function closer to east coast US time than proper time here... my gal is still in SC, so most nights we are up talking online. She comes on at a civilised 7 or 8pm her time, but of course that's 12 or 1am here. We then chat for about four hours... rarely in bed before 5am at the moment (and up at 8.30am lol).


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## Justin Cider (Jul 18, 2010)

Dtlv74 said:


> Although am in the UK right now I function closer to east coast US time than proper time here... my gal is still in SC, so most nights we are up talking online. She comes on at a civilised 7 or 8pm her time, but of course that's 12 or 1am here. We then chat for about four hours... rarely in bed before 5am at the moment (and up at 8.30am lol).


f*ck that for a laugh, must be love!


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

Dtlv74 said:


> Although am in the UK right now I function closer to east coast US time than proper time here... my gal is still in SC, so most nights we are up talking online. She comes on at a civilised 7 or 8pm her time, but of course that's 12 or 1am here. We then chat for about four hours... rarely in bed before 5am at the moment (and up at 8.30am lol).


know the feeling.. i'm in germany during the week, my wife gets home from work (london) at around 11:30.. so start chatting around midnight her time.. so 1am my time..so 2am still up..

By the way Dtlv74... i kept thinking ok, am big enough now.. after all have to fit into a suit for work.. but Looking at you avi, the devil in me says.. F**K the suit... get HUGE... (i know i have the tools! LOL)... must resist..


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Is that Dtlv74 in his avatar?


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## daken7 (Nov 22, 2011)

Does robbie=rob t?


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## @FrankieStylez (Dec 10, 2011)

Hey guys!

Have been doing leangains for about 6 months, loved it, great results but had to stop on the advice of my doctor.

Over the last week I have had bad stomach cramps, bloat, gas, heartburn etc. I couldn't eat at all until I got gastro tabs off the doc.

Doc said all the fasting and taking in so many cals when I break it was causing my stomach to produce too much acid.

Just wondering has anyone had any similar problems and found a solution. Maybe it's something simple I'm doing wrong?

I want to go back on it mainly because I've never been this cut even though I look a little skinny especially in the face.

I don't want my health to suffer because of it though.


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## bdcc (Aug 15, 2011)

@FrankieStylez said:


> Hey guys!
> 
> Have been doing leangains for about 6 months, loved it, great results but had to stop on the advice of my doctor.
> 
> ...


If you are struggling to get adequate calories and nutrients in during the window you are allowed then the diet won't be for you. Health wise I cannot eat enough in that short space of time without suffering GI distress so it simply doesn't work for me.

Interestingly though the HCL overproduction theory is quite a controversial topic with many functional doctors now theorising that this is over diagnosed and actually many people suffering from an HCL production deficiency instead. I would recommend making sure your doctor is making a correct diagnosis rather than jumping to the conclusion based on a very short conversation.


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## @FrankieStylez (Dec 10, 2011)

bdcc said:


> If you are struggling to get adequate calories and nutrients in during the window you are allowed then the diet won't be for you. Health wise I cannot eat enough in that short space of time without suffering GI distress so it simply doesn't work for me.
> 
> Interestingly though the HCL overproduction theory is quite a controversial topic with many functional doctors now theorising that this is over diagnosed and actually many people suffering from an HCL production deficiency instead. I would recommend making sure your doctor is making a correct diagnosis rather than jumping to the conclusion based on a very short conversation.


Hey mate cheers for the reply, maybe it was a deficiency actually that would make more sense.

I wasn't at all I was getting 3000 + cals on workout days and 2000 on rest it wasn't a problem.

I got the cramps before, one month in then about 2 months after again but without the heartburn and stomach upset.

I literally couldn't eat on wednesday my stomach was so blown up so something wasn't right and short of sticking a camera down my neck all the doc could do was give a diagnosis and prescribe me gastro tabs.

I'm gonna try and bulk now anyway eating 4 - 6 meals a day.

To be honest I look a little ill on leangains: gaunt in the face, too many visible veins etc.

What approach do you follow?


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## Robbie (Dec 31, 2007)

So I've been doing IF (not quite leangains style as I've not been cycling the calories) pretty much since I started this thread. For the past two weeks I have been eating 3500-3800 calories everyday (with a 40/30/30 C/P/F split) but my weight has not moved a bit! I could be a bit leaner maybe? Is it possible I am gaining muscle and losing fat even with such a high caloric intake (and no cycling of calories) ?

Edit: And I weigh 72kg currently.


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## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

If it's not moved for 2 weeks you're probably not eating enough, or not training right. Whether you're IF'ing or not, if you don't get the first two right you won't grow. How's your set up currently looking?


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## Robbie (Dec 31, 2007)

Wouldn't I just get fat and put on weight still if the training wasn't right?

I do a 3 day legs/push/pull 4x8. Lots of heavy compounds


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## Ben Stiller (Nov 24, 2011)

I have been using intermittent fasted since september. I have combined this with a low carb diet in the beginning with one day of refeeding ew. The leaner I got the more difficult it became doing this. I felt I needed more kcals and more carbs, so now I cycle carbs between training (3/4d) and non training (3/4) days, still using intermittent fasted 16/8. If you want to really measure progress you need to take your skinfolds and compare those over time. Bodyweight only is a poor judge of progress. Since the beginning of oktober I lost 10 kgs of fat and (re)gained 5 kgs of muscle. No AAS by the way. Best thing you can do now is cycle your kcals. The basic set up 80% of maintenance on non training days and 120% on the days you train. Since your weight is stable you have some idea of maintenance at 3500 - 3800kcals. So taking the high number you eat around 3000 kcals on non training days and 4500kcals on training days. Take your skinfolds and weigh yourself and do this two weeks to see what happens. The whole idea is to gain muscle and lose fat, hence the term leangains. It can work. Wether or not the IF plays a major role in this or if it is just a matter of diet setup remains to be seen, even for me. But fasting does feel right with me and eating less frequently suits me very well.


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## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

Nice post, summed up perfectly.


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## Robbie (Dec 31, 2007)

Im just bemused that 3800 could be maintenance for my weight!


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## Ben Stiller (Nov 24, 2011)

Robbie said:


> Im just bemused that 3800 could be maintenance for my weight!


Depending on your activity level it is not a grazy high number. I have one guy training with me @ 21 y old who needs to eat over 6000kcals to gain. He just start dropping weight below that number. Eating is a job!


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## Robbie (Dec 31, 2007)

Past 2 weeks I have done 6 x 45min weights and 2 hours of yoga - not much really!


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

Ben Stiller said:


> I have been using intermittent fasted since september. I have combined this with a low carb diet in the beginning with one day of refeeding ew. The leaner I got the more difficult it became doing this. I felt I needed more kcals and more carbs, so now I cycle carbs between training (3/4d) and non training (3/4) days, still using intermittent fasted 16/8. If you want to really measure progress you need to take your skinfolds and compare those over time. Bodyweight only is a poor judge of progress. *Since the beginning of oktober I lost 10 kgs of fat and (re)gained 5 kgs of muscle*. No AAS by the way. Best thing you can do now is cycle your kcals. The basic set up 80% of maintenance on non training days and 120% on the days you train. Since your weight is stable you have some idea of maintenance at 3500 - 3800kcals. So taking the high number you eat around 3000 kcals on non training days and 4500kcals on training days. Take your skinfolds and weigh yourself and do this two weeks to see what happens. The whole idea is to gain muscle and lose fat, hence the term leangains. It can work. Wether or not the IF plays a major role in this or if it is just a matter of diet setup remains to be seen, even for me. But fasting does feel right with me and eating less frequently suits me very well.


No disrespect but to drop 10kg (22lbs) of bodyfat and re-gain 5kg (11lbs) of muscle in just over two months just doesn't sound right - to lose that amount of fat would require an average minimum 1000kcal per day deficit when averaged out over roughly ten weeks, and I find it hard to believe that you could also gain 0.5kg of muscle each week when doing this, even if regaining previously held muscle... this is certainly not my own experience of IF eating when training to regain lost muscle mass, nor anyone else that I know who has done IF diets, and is better than most steroid cycles.


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## Ben Stiller (Nov 24, 2011)

Dtlv74 said:


> No disrespect but to drop 10kg (22lbs) of bodyfat and re-gain 5kg (11lbs) of muscle in just over two months just doesn't sound right - to lose that amount of fat would require an average minimum 1000kcal per day deficit when averaged out over roughly ten weeks, and I find it hard to believe that you could also gain 0.5kg of muscle each week when doing this, even if regaining previously held muscle... this is certainly not my own experience of IF eating when training to regain lost muscle mass, nor anyone else that I know who has done IF diets, and is better than most steroid cycles.


Using skinfold measurements, JP4 and scale weight this is what the numbers add up to. I will say that I calculate fat mass and fat free mass of course so wether the 5 kg gain is all muscle is a question, I will give you that. It's fat free mass, glycogen and water also for sure. I was down to 95 kgs of ffm beginning october, now it's 100 kgs, measured after three high carb days. Fat mass is down 10 kgs since then. I come from a high bf percentage and my ffm has been up to 110 kgs before so progress was fast by the time I upped my kcals on training days. So there was plenty room for improvement. It is what it is. I think the IF mostly helps keeping calories in check on my low days. I overeat a little on training days and do 45 min cardio daily, fasted, I carb cycle, time my foods, take my supps (caffeine, yohimbine, forskolin, d-aspartic acid, A-HD to name few) There is a lot going in to this, but it will give you results.


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

Ben Stiller said:


> Using skinfold measurements, JP4 and scale weight this is what the numbers add up to. I will say that I calculate fat mass and fat free mass of course so wether the 5 kg gain is all muscle is a question, I will give you that. It's fat free mass, glycogen and water also for sure. I was down to 95 kgs of ffm beginning october, now it's 100 kgs, measured after three high carb days. Fat mass is down 10 kgs since then. I come from a high bf percentage and my ffm has been up to 110 kgs before so progress was fast by the time I upped my kcals on training days. So there was plenty room for improvement. It is what it is. I think the IF mostly helps keeping calories in check on my low days. I overeat a little on training days and do 45 min cardio daily, fasted, I carb cycle, time my foods, take my supps (caffeine, yohimbine, forskolin, d-aspartic acid, 5-AD to name few) There is a lot going in to this, but it will give you results.


In that case, impressive work mate 

If you are happy that the measurements are accurate I'd suggest that less of the lean mass gain is water and glycogen than you think - since you are in a calorie deficit and not following a high carb diet it goes against physiology to suggest that you'd be storing a lot of glycogen... lean mass, however difficult to increase in calorie deficit, is still the most likely option for the bulk of the weight, and that's what amkes it remarkable. I guess one thing that might skew your readings though (not trying to rip a hole in your progress, just commenting because it is remarkable) is if you are taking your measurements during or just after the post carb-up phases of your carb cycling - that would give the appearance of a higher level of LBM than was actually there due to the temporarily tanked up glycogen stores. Having said all that, regaining muscle is so much easier than gaining it first time around - am in that muscle memory phase of rebuildign right now, and enjoying it loads - just wish it was this easy to gain all the time.

Anyway my own experience of IF is pretty positive - didn't find it better over time in respect of rate of fat loss compared to a more standard diet template, but it is more fun and certainly doesn't feel like a chore. There's a fair bit of evidence too to suggest that it is a very healthy diet protocol, especially when combined with exercise and dietary choices which are paleo-ish/devoid of too much processed food.

Calorie cycling I do think works well, especially for someone who trains naturally and is looking to follow a lean bulk type approach.


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## Harelquinn (Jun 25, 2010)

IF is amazin been doin this for a while now so much energy in the gym and i don't need stims.


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## Ben Stiller (Nov 24, 2011)

Dtlv74 said:


> In that case, impressive work mate
> 
> If you are happy that the measurements are accurate I'd suggest that less of the lean mass gain is water and glycogen than you think - since you are in a calorie deficit and not following a high carb diet it goes against physiology to suggest that you'd be storing a lot of glycogen... lean mass, however difficult to increase in calorie deficit, is still the most likely option for the bulk of the weight, and that's what amkes it remarkable. I guess one thing that might skew your readings though (not trying to rip a hole in your progress, just commenting because it is remarkable) is if you are taking your measurements during or just after the post carb-up phases of your carb cycling - that would give the appearance of a higher level of LBM than was actually there due to the temporarily tanked up glycogen stores. Having said all that, regaining muscle is so much easier than gaining it first time around - am in that muscle memory phase of rebuildign right now, and enjoying it loads - just wish it was this easy to gain all the time.
> 
> ...


Thanks! I am sure that in the FFM measurement the carb loading is a factor. But muscle is water, glycogen and protein anyway, with the first one making up the bulk of the weight, so I don't think it is much of a problem when estimating my FFM. Since my 'high' carb days are around 400gram of carbs, which for most would be a normal carb intake, I am fine with the numbers. But I get your point and it is valid indeed. The FFM gain came after weeks of 3 high carb days in a row on the weekends, combined with lower carbs and kcals on week days. This combination has slowed fatloss down a little to about a pound a week, but has given me a FFM regain. With the fascia stretched from higher FFM levels in the past, your muscles just fill out quickly if stimulated.

I have read some research on the benefits of intermittent fasting, but most protocols used are a form of alternate day fasting with no eating or up to 25% of maintenance kcals alternated with a day of isocaloric feeding or eating ad libitum. I really wonder if 25% of my daily need every other day would help me in my BB goals. I think it would be hard to get in enough kcals totallyto support your muscle mass. Maybe somebody has tried this? I might do this some time, eating just lean protein and some EFA's one day and then bulk up with healthy high carb foods the other day. I think this would suit my all or nothing type personality very well lol!



Harelquinn said:


> IF is amazin been doin this for a while now so much energy in the gym and i don't need stims.


This has been my experience as well, much more energy. It is the greatest benefit imo. I handle my carbs much better now as well.


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## Robbie (Dec 31, 2007)

Ben Stiller said:


> I think this would suit my all or nothing type personality very well lol!


This I TOTALLY relate to.


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

I've tried two of the (many) IF approaches - intermittent 24hr fasts, and the 'window' approach to eatign where you eat all your food in 4-6 hours each day. The window eating approach I found hard to do even after a few weeks of gettign used to it and had a little digestive discomfort from the periods of forcefeeding (which is what those eating windows felt like).

The intermittent 24 hour fasts worked better, but my prefered approach for lean bulking is what I've been doing for years anyway and that's simply cycling food intake so that I eat more on the days that I exercise and less on rest days. Is easy and natural to do and feels very healthy.


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## ki3rz (Sep 12, 2011)

Just out of interest, would leangains work if you applied CKD to it, if trying to lose weight?


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## Robbie (Dec 31, 2007)

I am so damn confused. Food increased to 4200 but my weight stays the same?!


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