# Carb Cycling vs. Once A Week Refeed



## Contest (Oct 4, 2011)

Hi all,

I've been carb cycling but using more carbs than the average person as my goal is to pack on more muscle mass whilst retaining a low body-fat percentage. Here is my current breakdown...

3x Low Days - 320g

2x Med Days - 490g

2x High Days - 660g

I workout 6x per week (PPL routine 2x per week) and do a lot of cardio hence why my low carb days is much higher than the average Joe's. I've come to realize that 320g of carbs is sufficient for me to function through the day, have a good intense workout & not feel bloated or sick.

I have also realized though that on my medium and high days, my stomach gets very bloated and I feel extremely uncomfortable especially in the evenings. This means that for 4 out of 7 days, I have to pretty much feel like and look like sh*t.

Would it maybe be better for me to consume 320g of carbs from Sun-Friday and then have a huge 1000g carb-up on Saturday? I have more flexibility on Saturdays in terms of meal frequency where as on weekdays I can't eat too often due to work and have to consume large quantities of food in each sitting. On Saturdays I'd be able to feed every 2 hours and though I may still feel uncomfortable and bloated, it's only 1 day out of 7.

Does anyone here do anything similar and generally speaking, is this approach similar to carb cycling?


----------



## Contest (Oct 4, 2011)

Morning bump :whistling:

@Pscarb

@marknorthumbria

@dtlv

@Tinytom

@Dazarms

Feel free to chime in lads


----------



## marknorthumbria (Oct 1, 2009)

its the gluten in your oats thats killing you, myprotein oats are horrendous

http://monstersupplements.com/store/p/4597/1/Anabolic-Designs-Ravenous.html

this should help with the gut too


----------



## Contest (Oct 4, 2011)

marknorthumbria said:


> its the gluten in your oats thats killing you, myprotein oats are horrendous
> 
> http://monstersupplements.com/store/p/4597/1/Anabolic-Designs-Ravenous.html
> 
> this should help with the gut too


I'm going to switch over to gluten free oats from tomorrow for a week or so on your recommendation but if I find I still feel bloated due to the quantity of food in each sitting, is a a once a week carb refeed a viable option?

Due to my busy work schedule, there's times where I may have to consume 400g oats + 1.2L milk + 50g whey in a single sitting which comes out to roughly 2200Kcal LOL.

I also thought a once a week refeed may be give better results in overall appearance as I'd retain less water through the week.


----------



## marknorthumbria (Oct 1, 2009)

Contest said:


> I'm going to switch over to gluten free oats from tomorrow for a week or so on your recommendation but if I find I still feel bloated due to the quantity of food in each sitting, is a a once a week carb refeed a viable option?
> 
> Due to my busy work schedule, there's times where I may have to consume 400g oats + 1.2L milk + 50g whey in a single sitting which comes out to roughly 2200Kcal LOL.
> 
> I also thought a once a week refeed may be give better results in overall appearance as I'd retain less water through the week.


mate if you didnt do 124633456 hours a week of cardio youd have more time for food prep


----------



## Contest (Oct 4, 2011)

marknorthumbria said:


> mate if you didnt do 124633456 hours a week of cardio youd have more time for food prep


LMAO, I have no issue with prepping food mate. I'm really good when it comes to that in fact. It's just that I'm so busy in the office, I can only fit in time for a meal and a snack.

My basic day consists of breakfast, meal at work, something pre-workout and then post-workout. Pre-workout I don't want anything to heavy as I don't want to feel bloated at gym so I pretty much have to split 6300Kcal over 3 meals lol.


----------



## L11 (Jan 21, 2011)

If you didn't do so much cardio you wouldn't need so much carbs either..

+1 for reducing cardio.


----------



## ConP (Aug 18, 2013)

I would decrease cardio and keep the majority of your carb intake around the actual workouts.

Excessive cardio will cut into your recovery.

6 weight workouts per week is a large workload as is!

Try just doing 10-15 minutes of high intensity cardio post workout (for heart health mainly) I think your results will improve.


----------



## Contest (Oct 4, 2011)

ConP said:


> I would decrease cardio and keep the majority of your carb intake around the actual workouts.
> 
> Excessive cardio will cut into your recovery.
> 
> ...


I tried this mate but high intensity cardio left me completely burned out. LISS cardio I feel isn't really having a negative impact from what I can tell at the moment.

I feel like I've started gaining again with my energy levels and strength much higher but its at the cost of consuming more carbs on a daily basis which leaves me feeling like sh*t and uncomfortable hence why I'm thinking is a massive once a week refeed a viable option.


----------



## Cronus (Jun 5, 2012)

Contest, I think you have a fantastic build, but seriously, you seem extremely stubborn and stuck in your own ways - old habits die hard.

I think you have been given some solid advice by members on here, mostly that you should cut the cardio "back" not "out" so you can reduce the cals/carbs. You feel bloated and crap likely because your body just doesn't tolerate the extreme number of carbs you're downing on your high days. I do LISS off season, 30 mins x 3 days a week (rest days).

Just try what other members have mentioned for a month and I'm sure you'll find you feel and progress better. Honestly not having a go, like I said I think you have an awesome build and admire your dedication to keep pushing and learn more. Just seems at the moment you stuck in a fish tank and kind of going in circles.

Good luck with your goals whichever method you choose to approach.


----------



## Contest (Oct 4, 2011)

Cronus said:


> Contest, I think you have a fantastic build, but seriously, you seem extremely stubborn and stuck in your own ways - old habits die hard.
> 
> I think you have been given some solid advice by members on here, mostly that you should cut the cardio "back" not "out" so you can reduce the cals/carbs. You feel bloated and crap likely because your body just doesn't tolerate the extreme number of carbs you're downing on your high days. I do LISS off season, 30 mins x 3 days a week (rest days).
> 
> ...


You couldn't be more right mate. I am very stubborn but like u said, old habits do indeed die hard.

I have a very OCD personality where once I do start doing something, in turns into an uncotrolable obsession. This is why the only two things I concentrate on are my career as a web developer and bodybuilding. I can't afford to pick up another hobby as it'll mean I'd have to split my attention 3 ways lol.

Taking my stubborn nature out of the equation. I'd still like to hear peoples opinions about carb cycling vs once a week refeeds.


----------



## infernal0988 (Jun 16, 2011)

carb cycling is pointless IMO just do it old school bulk up as much as you can then change your diet around & do more cardio when it comes time to loose it for the season etc...


----------



## paul xe (Sep 24, 2011)

I think in your current situation I would stick with carb cycling if I were you. I think if you went down the road of a weekly re-feed by the time you get to Saturday (assuming you re-feed on a Sunday) you would be feeling drained and be very tempted to carb up for your workout.

At least with cycling your carbs you keep them semi topped up without going over the top.

As others have said though, I think you are doing far too much in terms of your workout which is why your needing to consume so many calories in general. How about dropping your resistance training to a 3 or 4 day split, maybe a push/pull/legs on a Mon/Wed/Fri and cardio on a Tue/Thur leaving the weekend for rest and eating! Your CNS must be battered by the time Sunday comes! Your body needing so much food could be it's way of saying it needs more rest?

Also, looking at your recent pictures I think your looking anything but flat!


----------



## Contest (Oct 4, 2011)

paul xe said:


> I think in your current situation I would stick with carb cycling if I were you. I think if you went down the road of a weekly re-feed by the time you get to Saturday (assuming you re-feed on a Sunday) you would be feeling drained and be very tempted to carb up for your workout.
> 
> At least with cycling your carbs you keep them semi topped up without going over the top.
> 
> ...


I was actually considering refeeding on the Saturday mate as I have more time through the day. On Sundays I do a lot of traveling so it wouldn't be ideal for me.

I did enjoy carb-cycling but I really do think it's an eating protocol for those who train 3-4x per week. Once I switched over to a 6 day split where I do PPL 2x per week, I quickly realized its not suited as you only have 1 rest day and there's no such thing as a small workout.

Your completely right with what you said though. The quick fix to this issue is to do a 3-4 day split which is actually what I was doing about 3 weeks ago and at that point carb cycling was working fine. Well I say that but on low carb days I always felt like death and my low carbs weren't even that low in my opinion (120g).

I feel like I have a lot of energy at the moment so want to to train at a high frequency but shorter volume. I'm only human and I'm pretty sure I'll end up burning myself out at which point I'll drop back down to a 3-4 day split. I've done this many times where I cycle my training splits depending on how my energy levels feel a that moment in time.

I've actually just taken the plunge today and decided to change from carb cycling to refeeding to see how I feel through the week. Today I'll b getting in 1000g of carbs/8300Kcal, eating every 2 hours. From Sunday through to Friday I'll be consuming 320g of carbs split breakfast and post-workout. That's enough carbs for me to function through the day and have a good workout without feeling like death.

I suppose there's no harm in trying out something different. If it doesn't work for me its not as if I can't switch back to carb cycling again lol.

Thanks for the compliment mate but like I always say, that's just a flattering post-workout picture of myself lol.


----------



## Contest (Oct 4, 2011)

Just to add, this is how the day has gone so far...

7:30am - 200g oats + 600ml milk + 16 egg whites

9:30am - 200g oats + 600ml milk

Still got another 600g of oats to go though, 300g chicken, 250g extra lean beef, wholemeal bread, vegetables, cashews, whey and others bits and bobs.


----------



## Contest (Oct 4, 2011)

12:00pm - 200g oats + 600ml milk + 50g whey + 300ml milk

Its all slowly going down lol.


----------



## paul xe (Sep 24, 2011)

Am really interested to see how you get on with this, hope you keep us updated as I will be following if you do. As you said if it doesn't work out then you can always switch back to cycling.

I am also experimenting with carb cycling as I put on fat really easily but I'm eating no where near as much as you! I had a refeed last Sunday and, like you, I looked like I was pregnant! I could not believe how much fat I appeared to put on in one day and I honestly thought it was there to stay....all my hard work gone in one day. After a few days of normal eating (carb cycling) things went back to normal. After that I decided to do a week of low carbs (under 50g a day) and my energy levels have been great and I'm feeling really good in general. Sometimes what you think you need can all be in your head!


----------



## Contest (Oct 4, 2011)

paul xe said:


> Am really interested to see how you get on with this, hope you keep us updated as I will be following if you do. As you said if it doesn't work out then you can always switch back to cycling.
> 
> I am also experimenting with carb cycling as I put on fat really easily but I'm eating no where near as much as you! I had a refeed last Sunday and, like you, I looked like I was pregnant! I could not believe how much fat I appeared to put on in one day and I honestly thought it was there to stay....all my hard work gone in one day. After a few days of normal eating (carb cycling) things went back to normal. After that I decided to do a week of low carbs (under 50g a day) and my energy levels have been great and I'm feeling really good in general. Sometimes what you think you need can all be in your head!


Well I went to the gym at roughly 3:30pm and had a massive pull session. I don't know whether it was because I was carbed up but my strength was through the roof. Deadlifted 260kg and it felt so much more easier than normal. Had absolutely ridiculous pumps when training biceps as well to the point where it felt uncomfortable lol. I was struggling to push my water bottle up to my face.

*Post-workout I consumed:*

50g whey + 50g vitargo + 15g creatine.

*Got back home and consumed:*

200g oats + 600ml milk

300g chicken + two slices of wholemeal bread + 25g Minicol cheese + 170g greek yogurt

*Here's what's left to consume:*

200g oats + 600ml milk

50g whey + 300ml water

250g extra lean beef + 260g vegetables (broccoli & sprouts)

170g greek yogurt

250g quark

100g cashews

25g whey + 30g casein + 400ml water

I thought I would've been feeling extremely bloated and uncomfortable but to be honest the bloating isn't really too bad. I've enjoyed eating through the day and none of the meals have felt like a chore but I am looking forward to eating a nice comfortable amount of food for the next 6 days starting from tomorrow. Hopefully any water retention I gain from today should dissipate over the next few days and my stomach should suck right back in 

*P.S.*

I'm still very curious to know whether anyone diets this way. After Googling for hours, I can't find anything. The closest thing I can find is the CKD keto diet but this method advocates an extremely low amount of carbs though the week. I really don't understand how people do 50g-100g of carbs per day and have good workouts. If I do 100g on a rest day I feel like utter sh*t let alone doing it on a day I'm working out.


----------



## marknorthumbria (Oct 1, 2009)

Skiploading works mate, end of,

Check my pics lol.

You over think stuff wayyyy to much, never met someone as OCD as you in this sport lol


----------



## Contest (Oct 4, 2011)

marknorthumbria said:


> Skiploading works mate, end of,
> 
> Check my pics lol.
> 
> You over think stuff wayyyy to much, never met someone as OCD as you in this sport lol


You don't understand the half of it mate. You should see my office desk at work. Every pen and pencil is aligned in a straight line so that everything is parallel lol. I'm so OCD that I can't work if anything is not correctly positioned in its place :thumb:

The only pic I've seen of yourself is the one in your avi mate. Have u got anymore?

Lastly, what I did over the weekend where I consumed 1000g carbs and 8300Kcal in 16 hours; would that be classed as skiploading? All my carbs were low GI complex and I thought skiploading required high GI carbs?

Regardless, the next day my muscles looked ridiculously full. Probably the biggest I've felt in a while 

Water retention wasn't bad at all either and I'm still looking great today


----------



## marknorthumbria (Oct 1, 2009)

Contest said:


> You don't understand the half of it mate. You should see my office desk at work. Every pen and pencil is aligned in a straight line so that everything is parallel lol. I'm so OCD that I can't work if anything is not correctly positioned in its place :thumb:
> 
> The only pic I've seen of yourself is the one in your avi mate. Have u got anymore?
> 
> ...


check the journal in my signature mate

well the most i have eaten was just shy of 2000grams of carbs and i didnt spill over, all as glycogen and used by the thursday


----------



## Contest (Oct 4, 2011)

marknorthumbria said:


> check the journal in my signature mate
> 
> well the most i have eaten was just shy of 2000grams of carbs and i didnt spill over, all as glycogen and used by the thursday


How in gods name do you consume 2000g mate. What exactly are you eating, how frequently are you eating and how long is your refeed?

I was eating bang on every 2 hours 

I've read a similar protocol given by Lyle McDonald but he says it doesn't matter whether you use low or high GI carbs. He says that if a person struggles getting down low GI carbs, just use simple instead but as long as the numbers are hit.


----------



## marknorthumbria (Oct 1, 2009)

Contest said:


> How in gods name do you consume 2000g mate. What exactly are you eating, how frequently are you eating and how long is your refeed?
> 
> I was eating bang on every 2 hours
> 
> I've read a similar protocol given by Lyle McDonald but he says it doesn't matter whether you use low or high GI carbs. He says that if a person struggles getting down low GI carbs, just use simple instead but as long as the numbers are hit.


pancakes, jam and fluff

sweets

low fat supernoodles etc


----------



## Ben_Dover (Apr 12, 2012)

marknorthumbria said:
 

> check the journal in my signature mate
> 
> well the most i have eaten was just shy of 2000grams of carbs and i didnt spill over, all as glycogen and used by the thursday


What the best place to read up on this mate?


----------



## marknorthumbria (Oct 1, 2009)

Ben_Dover said:


> What the best place to read up on this mate?


there is only snippets on the internet, i got most of the info i needed from the first page of a google search, plus mates locally do it (rick hall)


----------



## Contest (Oct 4, 2011)

marknorthumbria said:


> there is only snippets on the internet, i got most of the info i needed from the first page of a google search, plus mates locally do it (rick hall)


I'm still waiting for Rick to respond to my email


----------



## Contest (Oct 4, 2011)

marknorthumbria said:


> pancakes, jam and fluff
> 
> sweets
> 
> low fat supernoodles etc


How do you count your carb intake mate. Do you count the total weight of the food or the total carb content from the food?

For example 1000g of oats + 3L milk = 850g carbs.

Would u class the above as 1000g of carbs or 850g? I know some people include the fibre and some exclude it.


----------



## Contest (Oct 4, 2011)

marknorthumbria said:


> pancakes, jam and fluff
> 
> sweets
> 
> low fat supernoodles etc


Just saw your pics in your journal mate. Looking awesome :thumb:

I'm going to carry on with this once a week refeed and see how it pans out for me. So far it seems like a great protocol but only time will tell


----------



## marknorthumbria (Oct 1, 2009)

Contest said:


> How do you count your carb intake mate. Do you count the total weight of the food or the total carb content from the food?
> 
> For example 1000g of oats + 3L milk = 850g carbs.
> 
> Would u class the above as 1000g of carbs or 850g? I know some people include the fibre and some exclude it.


count the carbs individually mate only


----------



## Mattye8 (Jun 21, 2011)

Contest said:


> You don't understand the half of it mate. You should see my office desk at work. Every pen and pencil is aligned in a straight line so that everything is parallel lol. I'm so OCD that I can't work if anything is not correctly positioned in its place :thumb:
> 
> The only pic I've seen of yourself is the one in your avi mate. Have u got anymore?
> 
> ...


Skip loading is usually done over a 6 hour period with high GI carbs low fat with as minimal water intake as possible in that period.

I've incorporated this recently and really enjoying it, it makes dieting fun!


----------



## marknorthumbria (Oct 1, 2009)

Mattye8 said:


> Skip loading is usually done over a 6 hour period with high GI carbs low fat with as minimal water intake as possible in that period.
> 
> I've incorporated this recently and really enjoying it, it makes dieting fun!


6 hour if your not very lean

I did 12-14 hours


----------



## Mattye8 (Jun 21, 2011)

marknorthumbria said:


> 6 hour if your not very lean
> 
> I did 12-14 hours


That's good to know when I first started I wasn't very lean but have got a Lot leaner since so will try for longer!


----------



## Contest (Oct 4, 2011)

Mattye8 said:


> Skip loading is usually done over a 6 hour period with high GI carbs low fat with as minimal water intake as possible in that period.
> 
> I've incorporated this recently and really enjoying it, it makes dieting fun!


Did u get cramps due to the low water intake and how much carbs do you get in mate?



marknorthumbria said:


> 6 hour if your not very lean
> 
> I did 12-14 hours


Took me 12 hours to get in all the carbs and another 4 hours to finish off any remaining proteins (extra lean beef, Greek yogurt, etc).


----------



## marknorthumbria (Oct 1, 2009)

Contest said:


> Did u get cramps due to the low water intake and how much carbs do you get in mate?
> 
> Took me 12 hours to get in all the carbs and another 4 hours to finish off any remaining proteins (extra lean beef, Greek yogurt, etc).


doesnt matter what you did mate you took in low GI carbs, the point is to rapidly fill glycogen, it will not work in the same way

i take in no protein while skiploading, only high GI carbs, low fats


----------



## Contest (Oct 4, 2011)

marknorthumbria said:


> doesnt matter what you did mate you took in low GI carbs, the point is to rapidly fill glycogen, it will not work in the same way
> 
> i take in no protein while skiploading, only high GI carbs, low fats


What confuses me about skiploading mate, is that doesn't an individual have to be fully glycogen depleted too reap the benefits of the carb up? I'm having 320g of carbs everyday which is about maintenance for me and I'm assuming your carb intake is not super low either. This is why I thought skiploading is a pre-contest protocol only.

Also, what difference does it make whether its complex or simple carbs. Glycogen will get replenished regardless and if not stepping out on stage, the rate wouldn't matter... Would it?

Here's Chris Aceto's carb depletion & loading protocol...

Carb Depletion and Loading by Chris Aceto


----------



## Mattye8 (Jun 21, 2011)

Contest said:


> Did u get cramps due to the low water intake and how much carbs do you get in mate?
> 
> Took me 12 hours to get in all the carbs and another 4 hours to finish off any remaining proteins (extra lean beef, Greek yogurt, etc).


First few times I did it I didn't get over 1000g carbs in and my set up was wrong. I ate a lot of sugary things without pacing myself and after a while sure enough felt like ****. When I do it now I do it gradually and feel awesome when all the muscles are full. I read somewhere that the depleted muscles soak up the simple carbs like a sponge therefore the simple sugars go straight to the muscles as opposed to being stored for energy. Which is why I do it on a rest day... The workout the next day is immense though.


----------



## Contest (Oct 4, 2011)

Mattye8 said:


> First few times I did it I didn't get over 1000g carbs in and my set up was wrong. I ate a lot of sugary things without pacing myself and after a while sure enough felt like ****. When I do it now I do it gradually and feel awesome when all the muscles are full. I read somewhere that the depleted muscles soak up the simple carbs like a sponge therefore the simple sugars go straight to the muscles as opposed to being stored for energy. Which is why I do it on a rest day... The workout the next day is immense though.


Are you actually depleting muscle glycogen though by low-carbing it through the week and doing depletion focused workouts mate?


----------



## Mattye8 (Jun 21, 2011)

Contest said:


> Are you actually depleting muscle glycogen though by low-carbing it through the week and doing depletion focused workouts mate?


Yes mate I have timed carbs around training. So pretty low most of the time.


----------



## Contest (Oct 4, 2011)

Mattye8 said:


> Yes mate I have timed carbs around training. So pretty low most of the time.


How low is low mate? I also time my carbs. I split 320g in roughly a 40/60 ratio.

Breakfast after an hour fasted cardio.

Post-workout in the evenings.


----------



## Dazarms (Sep 8, 2013)

Contest said:


> Just to add, this is how the day has gone so far...
> 
> 7:30am - 200g oats + 600ml milk + 16 egg whites
> 
> ...


. Mate I'd chuck milk and bread no dairy or wheat. I look far better no dairy on my diet or bread just bloats me up and kills condition. Swap dairy rice milk almond milk. Bread for just brown rice sweet potatoes u will look far better me feel much better less bloat more energy better condition


----------



## Contest (Oct 4, 2011)

Dazarms said:


> . Mate I'd chuck milk and bread no dairy or wheat. I look far better no dairy on my diet or bread just bloats me up and kills condition. Swap dairy rice milk almond milk. Bread for just brown rice sweet potatoes u will look far better me feel much better less bloat more energy better condition


I actually didn't feel too bad at all consuming oats & dairy through the day mate. I'm mildly lactose intolerant so used Lactofree skimmed milk.

I was bloated when i jumped into bed but after 8300Kcal & 1000g carbs, that's to be expected lol.

What does rice milk taste like by the way mate. I've had almond and soy and find them fine but have never tried rice milk.


----------



## Dazarms (Sep 8, 2013)

Contest said:


> How low is low mate? I also time my carbs. I split 320g in roughly a 40/60 ratio.
> 
> Breakfast after an hour fasted cardio.
> 
> Post-workout in the evenings.


 And yes go for skip loading. Done right will work awesome. As mark says we used it. I'm going start again with it this weekend Sunday I cycle carbs during week a high day legs and back 300g.medium chest shoulders 250. And low on arms day 150g 5 days train one week the following week I'll miss arms on sat and train 4 days my arms are crazy so train once fortnight Weds day off also Sun off. Sun skip load on Sunday over 1000g day before skip I'll lower carbs lowest day so ready for carb up sun this is very similar rock halls training routine I learnt from him


----------



## Dazarms (Sep 8, 2013)

Sorry high day is 350 not 300. And I don't touch bread or milk at all carbs from gluten free oats basmati brown rice sweet potatoes quinoa I do zero cardio also ATM


----------



## Dazarms (Sep 8, 2013)

Contest said:


> I actually didn't feel too bad at all consuming oats & dairy through the day mate. I'm mildly lactose intolerant so used Lactofree skimmed milk.
> 
> I was bloated when i jumped into bed but after 8300Kcal & 1000g carbs, that's to be expected lol.
> 
> What does rice milk taste like by the way mate. I've had almond and soy and find them fine but have never tried rice milk.


 Rice milk is awesome tastes great. I just get a soft look my physique drinking milk. Cut it out and look much harder and better I'm not lactose intollerant I just followed ricks advice last year leading up to North Brittan and looked best I've looked so I stick by his ways


----------



## Contest (Oct 4, 2011)

Dazarms said:


> Rice milk is awesome tastes great. I just get a soft look my physique drinking milk. Cut it out and look much harder and better I'm not lactose intollerant I just followed ricks advice last year leading up to North Brittan and looked best I've looked so I stick by his ways


I've been doing some research and it appears your not the only one who says they look soft and smooth when consuming dairy? What is it in milk that does that? I only use Lactofree skimmed milk to avoid the lactose and fat but I'm not sure whether that makes a difference.


----------



## Dazarms (Sep 8, 2013)

Contest said:


> I've been doing some research and it appears your not the only one who says they look soft and smooth when consuming dairy? What is it in milk that does that? I only use Lactofree skimmed milk to avoid the lactose and fat but I'm not sure whether that makes a difference.


Mate it is because milk is processed and not good for condition at all it does make u look soft no two ways about it.

This is also why I belive Casein shakes are waste time also and waste money

Any dairy just cut out you will see much more improved condition in your body

people are just following what they read in magazines like eat cottage cheese before bed as its slow releasing or drink a casein shake before bed or drink 500ml milk to add mass

You don't need blow up like a water baby

Size yes but condition no.

You don't need milk it is not needed at all you can get all ur vitamins and calcium from other food sources and guarantee u will look much better dropping it.

no pro bodybuilder, muscle model, fitness model sits drinking milk in his diet im telling you now.

This I all learnt from RIck hall who follows this to a tee and consumes no dairy what so ever

I changed and made huge changes overnight to my physique when I followed this

that includes dropping shakes also for BCAA and more whole food instead shake.

Just one shake PWO all is needed maybe one in morning but that's it.


----------



## Contest (Oct 4, 2011)

Dazarms said:


> Mate it is because milk is processed and not good for condition at all it does make u look soft no two ways about it.
> 
> This is also why I belive Casein shakes are waste time also and waste money
> 
> ...


On my refeed days I'm consuming 1000g of oats with 3L of skimmed milk. I think this Saturday I'll be having my oats with Almond milk and see how I feel at the end of the day. You've got me quite intrigued now lol.

Milk is pretty much the only dairy I consume in large quantities.

Do you use the unsweetened variety of Almond milk mate?


----------



## Dazarms (Sep 8, 2013)

Contest said:


> On my refeed days I'm consuming 1000g of oats with 3L of skimmed milk. I think this Saturday I'll be having my oats with Almond milk and see how I feel at the end of the day. You've got me quite intrigued now lol.
> 
> Milk is pretty much the only dairy I consume in large quantities.
> 
> Do you use the unsweetened variety of Almond milk mate?


Yeah mate unsweetened version Almond milk

I don't have it all time tho tbh just now and then if I fancy change from water on my oats

I tend just drink black coffee, green tea and lots of water 4 litres day I aim for mixing BCAA in through the day

Trying to add size but keep condition and lower BF.

15 stone atm around 11% bf

aim is to be 16.5 17 stone ar 7-8% bf


----------



## Contest (Oct 4, 2011)

Dazarms said:


> Yeah mate unsweetened version Almond milk
> 
> I don't have it all time tho tbh just now and then if I fancy change from water on my oats
> 
> ...


That's what my aim is as well mate.

Weighed myself yesterday and I came in at 15st bang on. My body-fat I'd guess is 10% or lower as I have veins sticking everywhere (biceps, quads, abs, calves) and good striations across my chest.

Keeping my calorie and carb intake the same everyday and then refeeding once per week really seems the way forward for me. Haven't been 15st in a long while especially whilst doing as much cardio as I do.


----------



## Dazarms (Sep 8, 2013)

Contest said:


> That's what my aim is as well mate.
> 
> Weighed myself yesterday and I came in at 15st bang on. My body-fat I'd guess is 10% or lower as I have veins sticking everywhere (biceps, quads, abs, calves) and good striations across my chest.
> 
> Keeping my calorie and carb intake the same everyday and then refeeding once per week really seems the way forward for me. Haven't been 15st in a long while especially whilst doing as much cardio as I do.


Good man! keep going

I do no cardio at all

Lets the diet and training keep my bf in check while growing

I don't belive in cardio unless few weeks before a contest to get shot that last bit fat that wont budge

You can get shredded without diet and training and gear alone imo

Whats your carb intake again through week.

Mine is low to mod with lots healthy fats and sat fats keeping testosterone high

more red meat than white and adding in nuts and oil and almond butter

Then reefed sundays


----------



## Dazarms (Sep 8, 2013)

Dazarms said:


> Good man! keep going
> 
> I do no cardio at all
> 
> ...


Whats your Macros mate look like protein/carb/fat


----------



## Contest (Oct 4, 2011)

Dazarms said:


> Good man! keep going
> 
> I do no cardio at all
> 
> ...


I can stay lean without the cardio but I've noticed I can get even leaner with it added in. I also like the fitness aspect of doing cardio 

My daily carb intake is 320g currently split into 2 servings. 85g for breakfast after 1 hour fasted cardio and the rest post-workout.



Dazarms said:


> Whats your Macros mate look like protein/carb/fat


My weekly macros are 520/320/104.

Refeed day is 680/1000/168.


----------



## Dazarms (Sep 8, 2013)

Contest said:


> I can stay lean without the cardio but I've noticed I can get even leaner with it added in. I also like the fitness aspect of doing cardio
> 
> My daily carb intake is 320g currently split into 2 servings. 85g for breakfast after 1 hour fasted cardio and the rest post-workout.
> 
> ...


Wow man that is a lot protein!

Im same weight as you 15 stone 210 pounds and I take in around 350g-400g protein day I don't think any more is needed imo

Is that all coming from whole food or a few shakes during day also?

I would drop all that fat on refeed day

You don't need a lot fat when refeeding I would really give skip loading a go or CSMP as Rick calls it.

Under 50g fat that day with 1000g to 1500g carbs

Protein just around 200g needed on the day if not less.

I guarantee you would see amazing results from it


----------



## Contest (Oct 4, 2011)

Dazarms said:


> Wow man that is a lot protein!
> 
> Im same weight as you 15 stone 210 pounds and I take in around 350g-400g protein day I don't think any more is needed imo
> 
> ...


That's coming from a few shakes through the day as well mate. The thing I've noticed is that people count macros differently. Some people count only the main macro-nutrient from a food source. For example with almonds some people may only count the fat and ignore the carbs as its such a small amount.

I prefer to count every gram of everything be it even if its just a gram of carbs from a protein shake. That's why my protein intake may seem quite high mate.


----------



## Dazarms (Sep 8, 2013)

Contest said:


> That's coming from a few shakes through the day as well mate. The thing I've noticed is that people count macros differently. Some people count only the main macro-nutrient from a food source. For example with almonds some people may only count the fat and ignore the carbs as its such a small amount.
> 
> I prefer to count every gram of everything be it even if its just a gram of carbs from a protein shake. That's why my protein intake may seem quite high mate.


LOL you def have a case the OCD going on there mate

I don't really count macros at all tbh

Ive ate this way and trained 10 years now and have an idea what 100g brown rice contains, 80g oats, 250g chicken ect..

I no what my body needs and don't feel like spending time stressing over every single macro

If I take in 50g carbs from rice when im aiming for 45g its not going to kill me

Only time I would really knuckle down would be in a prep for contest like 8 weeks out

But I no how my body responds and would rather use the mirror instead to check my physique than count every macro going.

as long as my proteins high and I have an idea carbs im taken in and rest I get from healthy fats I just keep eye on my physique

I just tend keep carbs separate from fats at all times that's only thing I do

And meal 1 is protein and fats no carbs till midday time then around workout.


----------



## Contest (Oct 4, 2011)

Dazarms said:


> LOL you def have a case the OCD going on there mate
> 
> I don't really count macros at all tbh
> 
> ...


I do indeed have severe OCD and it doesn't help that my other half does as well lol.

This morning I had a 100g of MyProtein oats with almond milk and it tasted exactly the same as cows milk to me. The big difference however was that the shake itself felt much lighter on my stomach. I never sip my shakes and have read that milk should never be drank fast but I always pound my shakes in seconds which is what may cause some stomach discomfort. Pounding the oats with almond milk felt fine though.

Ever since you told me, I've been reading up on milk and dairy and keep coming across articles and threads about how milk can make the skin appear thicker which in turn obviously makes a person appear less leaner and vascular. I cannot find a scientific explanation on this though so don't know whether this is bro science or fact as people seemed to be divided into two camps when it comes to milk. Some bodybuilders live on milk where as others avoid it like the plague.


----------



## marknorthumbria (Oct 1, 2009)

Contest said:


> I do indeed have severe OCD and it doesn't help that my other half does as well lol.
> 
> This morning I had a 100g of MyProtein oats with almond milk and it tasted exactly the same as cows milk to me. The big difference however was that the shake itself felt much lighter on my stomach. I never sip my shakes and have read that milk should never be drank fast but I always pound my shakes in seconds which is what may cause some stomach discomfort. Pounding the oats with almond milk felt fine though.
> 
> Ever since you told me, I've been reading up on milk and dairy and keep coming across articles and threads about how milk can make the skin appear thicker which in turn obviously makes a person appear less leaner and vascular. I cannot find a scientific explanation on this though so don't know whether this is bro science or fact as people seemed to be divided into two camps when it comes to milk. Some bodybuilders live on milk where as others avoid it like the plague.


im with darren mate,

pure milk is sh1t

im not with darren on casein though, i eat cottage cheese pre bed


----------



## Contest (Oct 4, 2011)

marknorthumbria said:


> im with darren mate,
> 
> pure milk is sh1t
> 
> im not with darren on casein though, i eat cottage cheese pre bed


Do you also use Almond milk mate and do you see any negatives with it? It seems to be a hidden gem as you still get your calcium and other vital nutrients, without the discomfort that cows milk can give you.

I drink Casein pre-bed but mixed with water. Have never felt any bloating or discomfort from it.


----------



## marknorthumbria (Oct 1, 2009)

i have actual cottage cheese from the fact whole foods are usually considered better

I have almond milk in the fridge but i rarely use it


----------



## Contest (Oct 4, 2011)

marknorthumbria said:


> i have actual cottage cheese from the fact whole foods are usually considered better
> 
> I have almond milk in the fridge but i rarely use it


I tend to eat more quark than cottage cheese. Prefer the smooth texture 

Will pound 3L of almond milk this Saturday and see how I feel. Think we've got a winner here :thumb:

Still a little skeptical on the whole subject of cows milk making the skin appear thicker but there's no harm in trying out new things.


----------

