# Why do people bulk up then cut down? Why not lean gains?



## Dan01010101 (Mar 16, 2016)

Whats the point of bulking up gaining muscle and fat then losing muscle and fat and overall making some lean gains.

When you can not bulk up and then just add lean gains to your already lean body?


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## DappaDonDave (Dec 2, 2013)

Because a Big Mac and fries is tastier than chicken breast every single meal.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Most people aim to limit fat gain when bulking now.


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## ironman1985bcn (Mar 3, 2010)

Because they havent got a clue how to bulk propperly and use the word "bulk period" to eat whatever they feel like eating, and after two months look absolutely like a mess... But hey, it's only water most say.


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## DLTBB (Jan 26, 2015)

You'll inevitably gain some fat and water during a bulk but some overdo it and don't control their calorie intake so gain more fat than necessary.


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## bottleneck25 (Sep 25, 2009)

If you are bulking you will put weight on regardless of where the calories come from the key is not taking the calories to high and slowly adding mass and adjusting your calories to keep the fat gain to a minimum .


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## Major Eyeswater (Nov 2, 2013)

Maximising muscle gain does seem to need a surplus of calories that will inevitably result in fat gain. The sweet-spot can be quite hard to hit.


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## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

Major Eyeswater said:


> Maximising muscle gain does seem to need a surplus of calories that will inevitably result in fat gain. *The sweet-spot can be quite hard to hit.*


 200 cals over maintenance.


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## AestheticManlet (Jun 12, 2012)

For me it's the mental side, I need to either be bulking and gaining noticeable weight or cut and see it drop.

After my cuts over I'm going to try get over it and aim for lean gains, without eating stupid amounts of calories.


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## bottleneck25 (Sep 25, 2009)

banzi said:


> 200 cals over maintenance.


 If you was to go 200 cals over maintenance for a month how much muscle would you be looking to gain on cycle ?


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## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

bottleneck25 said:


> If you was to go 200 cals over maintenance for a month how much muscle would you be looking to gain on cycle ?


 same as if you ate 1000 cals over.


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## bottleneck25 (Sep 25, 2009)

banzi said:


> same as if you ate 1000 cals over.


 I mean you personally ?


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## Major Eyeswater (Nov 2, 2013)

banzi said:


> 200 cals over maintenance.


 Yup - that's probably it.

But given that you're doing well if you can calculate either intake or activity to within 5% or so, getting a 200 surplus instead of zero or 400 can be tricky.


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## Tomahawk (Dec 24, 2014)

Dan01010101 said:


> Whats the point of bulking up gaining muscle and fat then losing muscle and fat and overall making some lean gains.
> 
> When you can not bulk up and then just add lean gains to your already lean body?


 Often it's because they listened to people who blindly told them to "eat more" in order to gain muscle...


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## Fluke82 (Sep 10, 2015)

banzi said:


> 200 cals over maintenance.


 You don't count calories, how do you know you're 200 over


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## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

Drogon said:


> You doubt count calories, how do you know you're 200 over


 i dont, but its all you need for maximum muscle gain, genetic response builds muscle, not excess calories.


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## 31205 (Jan 16, 2013)

People are impatient. Adding size with minimal fat gain takes longer than just adding size.


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## JohhnyC (Mar 16, 2015)

I don't bulk and cut, tried and failed many times. Its mainly because I am not disciplined and never really got the cutting diet particularity right, in the cutting stage like the lads here

For me I prefer the sacrifice, of muscle mass for lean(ish) gains. Not after massive size and more. Most 40+ year olds I know are fat slobs so easier to stand out than when in your 20's


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## TIDALWAVE (Aug 30, 2015)

I can eat 200 over maintenance and gain fvckall, so that's crap.

Everyones body is different as @Major Eyeswater mentioned the sweet spot is hard to find.


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## swole troll (Apr 15, 2015)

TIDALWAVE said:


> I can eat 200 over maintenance and gain fvckall, so that's crap.
> 
> Everyones body is different as @Major Eyeswater mentioned the sweet spot is hard to find.


 Then you're not eating 200 over maintenance.

You're eating at maintenance


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## TIDALWAVE (Aug 30, 2015)

swole troll said:


> Then you're not eating 200 over maintenance.
> 
> You're eating at maintenance


 Utter garbage, some people here eat 5000 calories plus, are you telling me that's 200 over maintenance too?

No, as I said everyone is different


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

TIDALWAVE said:


> Utter garbage, some people here eat 5000 calories plus, are you telling me that's 200 over maintenance too?


 It might be.


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## RedStar (Aug 8, 2014)

@TIDALWAVE

I am eating over 5000 calories, not gaining much fat if any, just consistent gains.

My maintenance cals at circa 17 stone, should be a lot higher than someone's at say 13 stone.

My maintenance at 14 stone was 3200 calories.


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## NorthPaul (Apr 11, 2016)

sen said:


> People are impatient. Adding size with minimal fat gain takes longer than just adding size.


 That ^

Know it from personal experience lol


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## 31205 (Jan 16, 2013)

NorthPaul said:


> That ^
> 
> Know it from personal experience lol


 Don't we all mate! My bulking attempts usually last about 4 weeks before I have zero abs and feel like s**t!


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## NorthPaul (Apr 11, 2016)

sen said:


> Don't we all mate! My bulking attempts usually last about 4 weeks before I have zero abs and feel like s**t!


 I'm like bulking for the last two years or so...lol na really i had two daughters, stopped training, shitty diet and now i'm trying to get back to normal... long way to see abs tho


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

Muscle building is quite energy expensive, but here's the thing - if energy is being used to build muscle then it can't be excess energy as excess energy in is always stored, it (energy used to build muscle) is always used energy (calories out).

To build muscle you firstly have to stimulate the body to want to add muscle - so you do resistance training. This then sets the body to build muscle and take energy where it can get it to do so. Then you make sure you supply protein as building blocks and the energy to put it all together.

If you are very fat then you really don't need to add any additional energy from diet at all because your body can easily obtain the energy it needs to build the new muscle from existing stores of energy. As you get leaner however, and stored energy becomes more scarce, more energy from food will be required, but it's only a modest amount above the energy intake you would maintain body weight on if you didn't weight train - you need to simply add the energy requirement for your workout sessions and for the energy cost of building muscle at a realistic rate.

For most people this means looking at their maintenance intake for no training and eating 200-300kcals extra daily when training. If carrying a lot of body fat then even less is needed.

When training in a gaining phase you shouldn't really think of yourself as having a static maintenance intake as your energy needs will always slowly increase as you gain muscle.

The main reasons people bulk are -



habit/tradition or someone big said they should do it


because they think you can build more muscle per week, so need more additional calories in, than you actually do - (the 1lb muscle gain a week idea that is so common is massively unrealistic for a natural)


because they believe that when they gain large amounts of body weight on a bulk much more of it is muscle than it actually is


they want a period of time when they simply don't want to worry about what they eat and just want to enjoy food and save the stressing and measuring for when they cut


because both accurately measuring food intake and accurately working out calorie requirements is a really fussy on-going process that's very easy to get wrong and hard to keep up with - so they'd rather just eat more than they need 'to be sure'.


IMO the last two points are totally legitimate reasons to bulk. The first three reasons are non-reasons. Lean bulking is definitely the best way to go in theory, but for the majority of people the stress and difficulty it involves to get right and continually monitor makes is too much of a pain practically for probably three quarters of all people.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

dtlv said:


> ...or someone big said they should do it


 LOL! That also reminds me of the occasionally heard dumb advice along the lines of, 'if you want to become a 300 lb bodybuilder you need to eat like a 300 lb bodybuilder'.

An excellent post as always. People that don't follow a strict approach can vary wildly in how 'relaxed' they are in their bulking of course, with particularly more experienced people getting better at ensuring progress with sensible fat gain without too much effort.


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## stevebills (Oct 9, 2007)

Dan01010101 said:


> Whats the point of bulking up gaining muscle and fat then losing muscle and fat and overall making some lean gains.
> 
> When you can not bulk up and then just add lean gains to your already lean body?


 Ask Dorian Yates it worked for him


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## JohhnyC (Mar 16, 2015)

dtlv said:


> .... If you are very fat then you really don't need to add any additional energy from diet at all because your body can easily obtain the energy it needs to build the new muscle from existing stores of energy. As you get leaner however, and stored energy becomes more scarce, more energy from food will be required, but it's only a modest amount above ....


 Great points actually, well explained. I've never really accepted the common belief that bulk and cut is the only way to go. It's one of those topics that's banded around gyms and forums without any real thought. And actually isn't that what most guys in the gyms around the world are actually trying to do, just lose fat and gain muscle at the same time


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## nWo (Mar 25, 2014)

TIDALWAVE said:


> Utter garbage, some people here eat 5000 calories plus, are you telling me that's 200 over maintenance too?
> 
> No, as I said everyone is different


 Well, yes. We all have different TDEEs, as you said everyone is different. A 150lb guy, unless they're VERY active, isn't going to have a TDEE of 5000kcal, whereas a guy that's 230lbs lean might. If you're not gaining weight over time you're not eating over maintenance, it really is that simple.

As for the question in the OP, accepting a little fat gain is necessary if you actually want to gain any muscle, but as has been established here 300 calories over maintenance is likely the maximum amount required for maximum gains. You also don't need to lose muscle on a cut if you use gear and keep your protein intake decent


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## Nu-Labz (Dec 10, 2015)

It's because when people bulk they eat what they want because they are 'bulking' well this is what I did. Now I have been cutting and I'm quite proud with what I have achieved bit have decided to add size but I'm gunna do it as a lean gain and be super strict with the diet still. But with me it used to be because I liked eating what I want. But after seeing my body from this cut I prefer my abs to a greasy burger


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## nWo (Mar 25, 2014)

Nu-Labz said:


> It's because when people bulk they eat what they want because they are 'bulking' well this is what I did. Now I have been cutting and I'm quite proud with what I have achieved bit have decided to add size but I'm gunna do it as a lean gain and be super strict with the diet still. But with me it used to be because I liked eating what I want. But after seeing my body from this cut I prefer my abs to a greasy burger


 If you're the sort that revels in eating loosely (like I am) then you might prefer a shorter approach to bulking and cutting cycles - as in, rather than bulking and cutting once a year, have a few shorter phases throughout the year so your bodyfat levels are kept in check and your gains won't be hindered in the slightest. An aggressive approach would be to bulk for 8 weeks gaining about 1lb a week, then cut on an aggressive deficit of 1500 calories for a couple of weeks to trim off any fat gained in those 8 weeks.


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