# Keto people wanting to bulk, how's this idea?



## musio (Jan 25, 2008)

Just thinking here, about keto people bulking.

A bulking stage will incur some fat gains. Instead of carbing up, how about increasing your protein intake which would induce gluconeogenesis which could be used as excess energy and exess cals to bulk with? To me, it would seem like a pure source of energy for the body to tap into and those reserves are always there instead of a carb reserve for repair.

Would this work?


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## The Big Dog (Jul 13, 2009)

Keto uses FATS as energy so why would you want to use high protein to induce gluconeogenesis which you would just as well use carbs.

Though upping the fats might be a better idea to bulk the calories but keto isn't something for the long term


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## Grim Reaper (Feb 21, 2010)

Its a very good question as i find trying to gain quality mass after keto ends up putting fat straight back on, Will be good to hear the best protocal to minamise rebound fat after keto...


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## musio (Jan 25, 2008)

The Big Dog said:


> Keto uses FATS as energy so why would you want to use high protein to induce gluconeogenesis which you would just as well use carbs.
> 
> Though upping the fats might be a better idea to bulk the calories but keto isn't something for the long term


For the bigger reserve of protein for reserves, repair and anabolic properties? Possible upping both as you need a calorie excess to bulk as you're right, keto isn't good for long term and you need a break. Would like an answer for the post above to avoid keto rebound when getting back to 'normal'.


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## kernowgee (Jan 30, 2011)

Keto has it use in reducing BF with minimal loses to muscle, the key is the last part making gains almost impossible, I would work on a clean diet and food discipline, to bulk requires a varied clean diet and extremely hard on any exclusion diet.


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## The Big Dog (Jul 13, 2009)

After using the keto diet I would only ever use it for shaping up for competion. I weighed in at 12.8 on my show last week and a week after I seen 15 stone. You are going to rebound with keto full stop IMHO.


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## s3_abv (Feb 10, 2010)

Big dog how on earth did you get to 12.8 you look pretty huge in the Pic dude if i'm honest lol. It's crazy how much weight/bloat you gain after just a refeed on keto, i put over 9lbs on in 24-36hours lol,


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## The Big Dog (Jul 13, 2009)

Lol. I'm nor that big. I'm only 5'7 for a start!

Took about 16 weeks to get from 16.4 to 12.10.

Refeed days would see me jump 1.4 stone in 12-18 hrs


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## Raptor (Feb 16, 2010)

I'd just have carbs around the workout, timed keto diet (TKD)

Still burning fat but gaining size, i have done this with success


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

High protein knocks you out of ketosis even if carbs are extremely low - you may as well lean bulk with carbs.

Incidentially, I tried a straight keto bulk (less than 50g carbs per day, 1g per 1lb bodyweight protein, rest of kcals from fats) for eight weeks a few years ago and it was living hell - hardly added any muscle, just 5-6lbs of solid fat, and training was much lower in performance ability than normal. Felt pretty [email protected] too.

If looking to lean bulk and are insistent on doing it low carb, I would personally advise either doing a CKD, TKD or a non keto carb cycling approach - straight keto is not a good choice for maximising muscle gain and minimising fat gain when kcals are in excess.


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## Raptor (Feb 16, 2010)

Not saying that this is the way to go, not at all... but before my workout today i had 150grams of fizzy cola bottles and 2 large chocolate bars, which equates to about 200 grams of sugar, i only ate that because i had no carbs in my house for pre workout and oddly enough i ended up going hypo when i got home from the gym :confused1:

Which is odd because i had no slin that day, i had to eat some tinned chickpeas and order a pizza as i was certainly going hypo which was odd considering the stuff i had earlier, i'd never even gone hypo until recently


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## The Ultimate Warrior (Dec 20, 2010)

I don't agree that Keto isn't for the long term, there are people who stay on it permanantly and say they feel great.


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

JPaycheck said:


> I don't agree that Keto isn't for the long term, there are people who stay on it permanantly and say they feel great.


I don't think it is so good longterm - certainly where they put epileptic children/young adults on it longterm to reduce the frequency of fits there are numerous related problems that often develop including osteoporosis, kidney stones, urolithiasis, and retarded bone growth.



> Overall, uncontrolled clinical studies have reported that approximately one-third of patients with intractable seizures have become seizure-free on the ketogenic diet. Common adverse events attributed to the diet include dehydration, gastrointestinal symptoms, hypoglycemia, as well as carnitine and vitamin deficiencies. Cognitive effects, hyperlipidemia, impaired neutrophil function, urolithiasis, optic neuropathy, osteoporosis, and protein deficiency may also occur in some patients.
> 
> http://www.theannals.com/cgi/content/abstract/32/3/349


The above problems relate mainly to a mild but sustained level of acidosis that occurs when carbs are very low, and the way the body has to deal with this to buffer blood pH.

Carb depletion, and especially ketogenic diets, also leads to poorer cognitive skills - in fact extensive performance tests by the military show that other than concentration/attention span, which is improved on low carb diets, all other tested cognitive measures are significantly reduced - spatial awareness, speed of memory recall, and especially complex problem solving under stress which becomes strongly reduced.

What's interesting about the cognitive effects of very low carb and keto diets is that while these symptoms occur quickly and noticably in the first few weeks (most people feel dazed and confused to a degree when adapting to keto), once ketone adapted many people do self report as feeling good again. Unfortunately however, there's no evidence at all to show to support their perception that actual cognitive ability ever goes back to what it was on a more balanced diet - in other words, ketogenic diets stupify people and after a few weeks of feeling uncomfortable with it they just get used to it and aren't aware of the cognitive decline anymore.


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## The Ultimate Warrior (Dec 20, 2010)

Dtlv74 said:


> I don't think it is so good longterm - certainly where they put epileptic children/young adults on it longterm to reduce the frequency of fits there are numerous related problems that often develop including osteoporosis, kidney stones, urolithiasis, and retarded bone growth.
> 
> The above problems relate mainly to a mild but sustained level of acidosis that occurs when carbs are very low, and the way the body has to deal with this to buffer blood pH.
> 
> ...


errrr......yeah...what he said.


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## s3_abv (Feb 10, 2010)

JPaycheck said:


> I don't agree that Keto isn't for the long term, there are people who stay on it permanantly and say they feel great.


I'm loving keto and will be using it for some time yet too. I feel great, strength has increased, no bloat and fat is slowly reducing.


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## s3_abv (Feb 10, 2010)

The Big Dog said:


> Lol. I'm nor that big. I'm only 5'7 for a start!
> 
> Took about 16 weeks to get from 16.4 to 12.10.
> 
> Refeed days would see me jump 1.4 stone in 12-18 hrs


Wow i thought i was small.

Only joking mate haha. Think you look really good in the pic, that's a big weight too for your height!!!

Just started my refeed now, was gona try and do just tonight, but will prob do untill sat night. Looking forward to my weigh in sunday morning.


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## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

Most has already been said, but just to reiterate: Keto is not an ideal environment for the body to be in for adding mass for a host of reasons, even with adequate calories training performance is likely to suffer. Leangaining? TKD definitely has it's place, as Raptor has pointed out.


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