# Question about incrimental weight increase, failure and deloading



## The Sweeney (May 8, 2014)

I'm really enjoying the starting strength program and seeing decent strength gains.

However, I'm at odds with one part of the program and wanted to seek advice.

They recommend adding 5lbs (2.5kg) each session, which is fine... however, I very quickly reached a sticking point on the shoulder press at 47.5kg - pathetic for 6'4" I know, but we all have to start somewhere.

I just about squeezed out my 3 sets of 5 when I was at 45kg, and as per the program, moved up to 47.5kg and only managed 2, 2, 2. It was just too heavy. So as per the program, I tried again twice more - the next session saw 3,4,3, then on the last attempt I managed 5,5,4.

I was gutted to miss the last rep, but I simply couldn't make it.

Now according to the program, that's 3 failed attempts so I should de-load and start again at 45kg....

My thoughts are that going from 222, 343 and then 554 shows decent progression where I'm pretty confident that I'll nail 555 next time round and all will be right with the world... or am I missing something?

Is there a deeper scientific reason to deload I don't understand.

I asked on the SS forum, but to be fair, the answer to everything centres around eating more.

Also, 2.5kg on the press seems to be too big of a jump to me, yet it is the smallest increment I can do. I can predict having this stall every time I move up a weight. Is this normal?

Could just do with a little more scientific answer that doesn't hinge around drinking a gallon of milk every day to cure everything.

I'm not dissing the program, it's just that I like to know WHY just as much as HOW.

Thanks.


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## Major Eyeswater (Nov 2, 2013)

I've been using 5x5 mixed in with volume work, and yes - a 2.5k jump is a big deal when you're going from 45 to 47.5kg. It's 5.6%

I've got a home gym setup, and have invested in some fractional plates (4 half kilo and 2 quarter kilo). This allows me to nudge up the weights by just half a kilo at a time. It's working, because I'm an old-timer, and I'm not going to be making the leaps in strength that beginners can make.

"Just eat more" doesn't seem very helpful.

If you did 554 last time - I'd be inclined to screw the deload rule & go for it


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## The Sweeney (May 8, 2014)

Major Eyeswater said:


> I've been using 5x5 mixed in with volume work, and yes - a 2.5k jump is a big deal when you're going from 45 to 47.5kg. It's 5.6%
> 
> I've got a home gym setup, and have invested in some fractional plates (4 half kilo and 2 quarter kilo). This allows me to nudge up the weights by just half a kilo at a time. It's working, because I'm an old-timer, and I'm not going to be making the leaps in strength that beginners can make.
> 
> ...


Thank you.

I'll nail 555, then get some tiny fractionals and go from there as 2.5kg will just see me doing this every time.

The SS program seems to put body mass above everything else, whether than mass is muscle or fat, and at already 23%bf, I'm reluctant to just keep on piling on the lbs and getting even fatter.

What is a 'safe' amount of mass to gain per week or month without it just being blubba? I'm currently 15 stone.


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## Bataz (Jan 21, 2014)

Personally I wouldn't add 2.5kg every week regardless. I would only add weight when I was completing the prescribed sets and reps comfortably and it felt too easy.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Major Eyeswater said:


> I've got a home gym setup, and have invested in some fractional plates (4 half kilo and 2 quarter kilo). This allows me to nudge up the weights by just half a kilo at a time.


Same here. Sadly it seems to be the norm for gyms not to have plates of less than 1.25 kg.

@The Sweeney if you feel you can do 5X5 next time then I'd do that. The key is to keep progressing. You'll need a deload soon by the sounds of it though if you can only do 2.5 kg increments. There is no absolute science to this BTW, but it is important to not get stuck doing the same thing for week after week without progresing (as many people do).


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## a.notherguy (Nov 17, 2008)

its not 3 failed atttempts as you have increased the reps each time. Thats how ive always seen it anyway.


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## a.notherguy (Nov 17, 2008)

Ultrasonic said:


> Same here. Sadly it seems to be the norm for gyms not to have plates of less than 1.25 kg.
> 
> @The Sweeney if you feel you can do 5X5 next time then I'd need that. The key is to keep progressing. You'll need a deload soon by the sounds of it though if you can only do 2.5 kg increments. There is no absolute science to this BTW, but it is important to not get stuck doing the same thing for week after week without progresing (as many people do).


the collars on the EZ bar in my gym weigh 0.5kg


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## 2004mark (Oct 26, 2013)

Since you're so close my logic would say keep it the same. But tbh deload or stay the same... it's really not going to make the slightest difference.


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## 39005 (Nov 25, 2013)

Major Eyeswater said:


> I've been using 5x5 mixed in with volume work, and yes - a 2.5k jump is a big deal when you're going from 45 to 47.5kg. It's 5.6%
> 
> I've got a home gym setup, and have invested in some fractional plates (4 half kilo and 2 quarter kilo). This allows me to nudge up the weights by just half a kilo at a time. It's working, because I'm an old-timer, and I'm not going to be making the leaps in strength that beginners can make.
> 
> ...


pretty much the same as me, at 45 with a knackered back i do the best i can with each session, sometimes this means less weight than the previous week sometimes more - i dont expect rapid gains anymore or improvements - if they happen then great if not then at least im trying.

you can always try and shock your muscles running dropsets from a higher start so after a quick warmup you would start on 47.5kg and drop from that until you are knackered , when you can do that in the sets you want then reverse it.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

As for safe weight gain I'd mostly judge by measuring fat gain with calipers. But if you want figures 1 to 2 lb a month are ballpark nattie figures often quoted.

When I first trained years ago I focused too much on weight gain but frankly got fat. If you're worrying you are gaining too much fat then I'd say odds are that you are.


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## The Sweeney (May 8, 2014)

Thanks chaps - I know that my next attempt will nail it, but it'll be 5 mins between sets and the last rep or two of each set will be a death defying struggle. To then add another 2.5kg for the next session.... well, I'll be back at 222 again and so it'll continue.

Would I be best sticking at that weight until it's more comfortable / confident, or keep on increasing with maybe only 1kg each time if I get some 0.5kg brass collars machined up somewhere?

Sorry for the noob questions... I'm a noob.


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## The Sweeney (May 8, 2014)

Ultrasonic said:


> As for safe weight gain I'd mostly judge by measuring fat gain with calipers. But if you want figures 1 to 2 lb a month are ballpark nattie figures often quoted.
> 
> When I first trained years ago I focused too much on weight gain but frankly got fat. If you're worrying you are gaining too much fat then I'd say odds are that you are.


Yep - deffo feel it behind the belt in my work pants....


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## Ricky12345 (Jun 13, 2012)

Lol at the eat more seems to be the answer for everything to some people


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## a.notherguy (Nov 17, 2008)

The Sweeney said:


> Thanks chaps - I know that my next attempt will nail it, but it'll be 5 mins between sets and the last rep or two of each set will be a death defying struggle. To then add another 2.5kg for the next session.... well, I'll be back at 222 again and so it'll continue.
> 
> Would I be best sticking at that weight until it's more comfortable / confident, or keep on increasing with maybe only 1kg each time if I get some 0.5kg brass collars machined up somewhere?
> 
> Sorry for the noob questions... I'm a noob.


i mentioned this in an earlier post but the EZ bar collars in my gym weight 0.5kg, they look like this....

they look like 'I' in this pic, someone must of bought a balance in and weighed them...



do oyu have any collars like this in your gym or do yo only have the big 5kg oly collars?


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

I would definitely go for smaller increments if you can. You'll be less likely to injure yourself, and it will keep the workload (weight X reps X sets) higher.


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## The Sweeney (May 8, 2014)

Ricky12345 said:


> Lol at the eat more seems to be the answer for everything to some people


The worlds strongest men are rarely skinny, I get the mass = strength (ish) thing, but the lack of science behind some of the answers over at SS concerns me a little.

"It works so just do it, ok?"

"Have you drank a gallon of whole milk today?"

Etc...

All well and good, but I don't want to work the heavy bag in my boxing sessions and look like fcuking 'Butterbean'.


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## The Sweeney (May 8, 2014)

a.notherguy said:


> i mentioned this in an earlier post but the EZ bar collars in my gym weight 0.5kg, they look like this....
> 
> they look like 'I' in this pic, someone must of bought a balance in and weighed them...
> 
> ...


A's and B's.... if you can find any... are they 0.5kg each?


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## a.notherguy (Nov 17, 2008)

The Sweeney said:


> A's and B's.... if you can find any... are they 0.5kg each?


nah, they will never weight 0.5kg mate

if you are serious about getting some 0.5kg weights, then just use a bit of chain, you can buy it cheap in any hardware store then use pliers and your kitchen scales to cut it to length.

wont look great but getting some machined will be so expensive that you would be better off buying some micro plates


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## nWo (Mar 25, 2014)

I think adding 5lbs to all lifts is a stupid idea. Lifts like squats and deadlifts where you're using a lot of weight, the 5lb increase will hardly make a difference - it's like adding a peanut onto one side of a scale that has big rocks of equal weight on either side. With movements like OHPs though, in which you'll be using a much lower weight, it's like adding a peanut to one side of a scale holding a little pebble on each side - it's not gonna go unnoticed. I think it's much better to go with a percentage increase to keep things proportionate; 2.5% is a pretty good figure or as close to it as you can get with the plates you have (well worth getting some fractional plates to take to the gym if your gym doesn't have them), so with your OHP you'd be adding closer to a kilo as opposed to two and a half kilos.


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## Major Eyeswater (Nov 2, 2013)

The Sweeney said:


> I get some 0.5kg brass collars machined up somewhere?


http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Pair-Olympic-weight-plates-0-5kg-NEW-powerlifting-/330471033171?pt=UK_Strength_Training&hash=item4cf19bc953#ht_139wt_721

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Pair-Olympic-fractional-microplates-weight-plates-0-25kg-NEW-powerlifting-/331332043621?pt=UK_Strength_Training&hash=item4d24edc365#ht_101wt_721

If you buy 2 pairs of half kilo and 1 pair of quarter, then along with the 1.25k small plates you can do smooth half kilo progressions.


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## saxondale (Nov 11, 2012)

The Sweeney said:


> The worlds strongest men are rarely skinny, I get the mass = strength (ish) thing, but the lack of science behind some of the answers over at SS concerns me a little.
> 
> "It works so just do it, ok?"
> 
> ...


why are you doing 5x5 then?

if your happy the weights are heavy go for reps not increases


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

GOMAD is a very blunt instrument that has made lots of people fat IMHO. Adding 2500 calories to pretty much anyone's diet is going to be serious overkill.


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## The Sweeney (May 8, 2014)

saxondale said:


> why are you doing 5x5 then?
> 
> if your happy the weights are heavy go for reps not increases


I'm doing 3x5 SS as the main compound lifts appeal to me and I'm weak as pi$$.

Throughout the forum I hear time and time again about the benefits of squats and deads, so I thought I'd incorporate them to my program. Add bench, shoulder press and power cleans and or chins and that's a bloody good all over work out.

I'm not a body builder per se, but can best describe my goals by comparison to a Rugby player or in shape heavy weight boxer. Big, solid, dense, thick. Not chasing abs, not chasing ripped - just want to be a bloody big bloke, but without a wobbly, flabby tummy.

SS 3x5 plus my boxing training seemed to be a good way to achieve this?


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## The Sweeney (May 8, 2014)

Major Eyeswater said:


> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Pair-Olympic-weight-plates-0-5kg-NEW-powerlifting-/330471033171?pt=UK_Strength_Training&hash=item4cf19bc953#ht_139wt_721
> 
> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Pair-Olympic-fractional-microplates-weight-plates-0-25kg-NEW-powerlifting-/331332043621?pt=UK_Strength_Training&hash=item4d24edc365#ht_101wt_721
> 
> If you buy 2 pairs of half kilo and 1 pair of quarter, then along with the 1.25k small plates you can do smooth half kilo progressions.


Good call...

I was going t buy a £10 lump of 100mm dia bright steel round bar and machine them down on my lathe as I am lucky enough to have access, but for the time and effort, those plates look worth a punt.


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## Ricky12345 (Jun 13, 2012)

Ultrasonic said:


> GOMAD is a very blunt instrument that has made lots of people fat IMHO. Adding 2500 calories to pretty much anyone's diet is going to be serious overkill.


I piled on 2 stone off unwanted fat when I first started training just after losing 5 stone odd it really ****ed me off lol Some off the guys were just trying to help i apricaite that but now I'm more experienced Jesus Christ some off the carbs they were telling me to add and cals Was ridiculous


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## The Sweeney (May 8, 2014)

Ricky12345 said:


> I piled on 2 stone off unwanted fat when I first started training just after losing 5 stone odd it really ****ed me off lol Some off the guys were just trying to help i apricaite that but now I'm more experienced Jesus Christ some off the carbs they were telling me to add and cals Was ridiculous


I'm open to listen to any scientific argument that says extra fat adds strength. I doubt any exists though.

If making SURE you're getting enough protein means a slight calorie surplus to keep the macro ratios correct, results in a little extra fat, I can understand that.

But all this 3,000+ cals per day lark... I'd be big fat pig in a few months.

I'm currently about 2,500 cals a day and my belly pushes against my belt just the same as it did 3 months ago. I sit at a desk 10 hours a day for the record.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

The Sweeney said:


> If making SURE you're getting enough protein means a slight calorie surplus to keep the macro ratios correct, results in a little extra fat, I can understand that.


I've yet to see any evidence there is such a thing as a 'correct macro ratio' though, so I don't even think that works. As far as I'm concerned it makes far more sense to sort out protein and then worry about how to split the remaining calories between carbs and fats.


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## The Sweeney (May 8, 2014)

Ultrasonic said:


> I've yet to see any evidence there is such a thing as a 'correct macro ratio' though, so I don't even think that works. As far as I'm concerned it makes far more sense to sort out protein and then worry about how to split the remaining calories between carbs and fats.


My issue is trying not to be lazy and rely on protein shakes and eggs too much! Must keep eating real food!!!


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

The Sweeney said:


> My issue is trying not to be lazy and rely on protein shakes and eggs too much! Must keep eating real food!!!


Eggs are real food!


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## Major Eyeswater (Nov 2, 2013)

Ultrasonic said:


> I've yet to see any evidence there is such a thing as a 'correct macro ratio' though, so I don't even think that works. As far as I'm concerned it makes far more sense to sort out protein and then worry about how to split the remaining calories between carbs and fats.


My thoughts exactly. The body has all sorts of feedback mechanisms which allow it to tailor the balance between glucose burn & fat burn depending oin what mix of fuel is coming in.

As a general principle, some people do better on a fattier mix and others on a high carb. I'm a carb man myself & generally get 45-50% of my calories from carbs and 30-35% from fat, but if I work out my macros one day and the ratio is flipped the other way, it's "oh that's interesting" rather than "I need to sort that out"


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## The Sweeney (May 8, 2014)

Ultrasonic said:


> Eggs are real food!


I know...

During the day I have this plan where I'll get home, cook all this chicken and fish, whole grain rice and pasta, sweet potato etc and eat it throughout the following day at work...

The reality is that I get home from work, do the full kids to bed routine, go to the gym, get home about 9.30 - 10pm, have a shower and am utterly knackered, so end up boiling a load of eggs and eating one every couple of hours throughout the day along with a protein shake or two. Then a normal dinner when I get home.

The protein shakes are just too convenient.


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## The Sweeney (May 8, 2014)

Major Eyeswater said:


> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Pair-Olympic-weight-plates-0-5kg-NEW-powerlifting-/330471033171?pt=UK_Strength_Training&hash=item4cf19bc953#ht_139wt_721
> 
> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Pair-Olympic-fractional-microplates-weight-plates-0-25kg-NEW-powerlifting-/331332043621?pt=UK_Strength_Training&hash=item4d24edc365#ht_101wt_721
> 
> If you buy 2 pairs of half kilo and 1 pair of quarter, then along with the 1.25k small plates you can do smooth half kilo progressions.


Ordered as per your prescription, Doc.


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## jimmy26 (Apr 1, 2009)

The Sweeney said:


> I know...
> 
> During the day I have this plan where I'll get home, cook all this chicken and fish, whole grain rice and pasta, sweet potato etc and eat it throughout the following day at work...
> 
> ...


cook a few days worth in one night then you wont have to every night


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## Major Eyeswater (Nov 2, 2013)

The Sweeney said:


> I'm open to listen to any scientific argument that says extra fat adds strength. I doubt any exists though.


There is an argument that fat provides padding between the muscle fibres that increases mechanical advantage - but I find this implausible because people who work out a lot have very little intramuscular fat - even if they are obese. I remember a Horizon program where they compared MRI scans of a sumo wrestler with a bloke who was just fat, and whilst the fat bloke had lots of fat inside his muscles, the sumo-wrestler basically had a bodybuilder physique with a thick layer of fat over it.

It's probably true that being heavy gives you a lower & more solid centre of gravity which may be an advantage on certain lifts.

I would guess that the real reason is that you recover better when you are in caloric surplus - so rather than the fat making them stronger, it's all that extra food that's helping them get stronger and fatter.



> If making SURE you're getting enough protein means a slight calorie surplus to keep the macro ratios correct, results in a little extra fat, I can understand that.


I've found that running a surplus of 200-300 cals a day gets everything growing just fine, and keeps fat gain to negligible levels. I've bulked on more, and I don't gain muscle any faster.



> But all this 3,000+ cals per day lark... I'd be big fat pig in a few months.
> 
> I'm currently about 2,500 cals a day and my belly pushes against my belt just the same as it did 3 months ago. I sit at a desk 10 hours a day for the record.


Bloody hell - I cut on 3,000 a day.


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## The Sweeney (May 8, 2014)

Major Eyeswater said:


> There is an argument that fat provides padding between the muscle fibres that increases mechanical advantage - but I find this implausible because people who work out a lot have very little intramuscular fat - even if they are obese. I remember a Horizon program where they compared MRI scans of a sumo wrestler with a bloke who was just fat, and whilst the fat bloke had lots of fat inside his muscles, the sumo-wrestler basically had a bodybuilder physique with a thick layer of fat over it.
> 
> It's probably true that being heavy gives you a lower & more solid centre of gravity which may be an advantage on certain lifts.
> 
> ...


Just how am bud. Sitting at a desk all day is not good.

To b fair, I've never PROPERLY worked it out, but I'm pretty confident I'm way under 3kCals. Keep in mind I have very little muscle mass to maintain at the moment.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

I wouldn't stress a couple of protein shakes per day personally, so long as you're getting good food for your main meals.

(I actually deliberately have just whey mid-morning and mid-afternoon as I aim to get blood amino acid levels to peak and trough throughout the day, but this is definitely a controversial approach and I'm in no position to advise anyone that this is definitely optimal.)


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## The Sweeney (May 8, 2014)

Ultrasonic said:


> I wouldn't stress a couple of protein shakes per day personally, so long as you're getting good food for your main meals.
> 
> (I actually deliberately have just whey mid-morning and mid-afternoon as I aim to get blood amino acid levels to peak and trough throughout the day, but this is definitely a controversial approach and I'm in no position to advise anyone that this is definitely optimal.)


It's more like three or four double scoop shakes a day. Always one with breakfast. Always one throughout the day. Always one before I go to bed and another directly after training on gym days.


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## Major Eyeswater (Nov 2, 2013)

Ultrasonic said:


> I aim to get blood amino acid levels to peak and trough throughout the day, but this is definitely a controversial approach and I'm in no position to advise anyone that this is definitely optimal.)


There's an article by Lyle McDonald on his website where he talks about the idea that deliberately allowing blood amino acid levels to bounce around is more effective than trying to keep them high all the time with frequent feeding. He speculates that this is why intermittent fasting appears to work well - because the periods of low amino acid levels help to resensitise the muscle and make the uptake more efficient when protein does come in, and this approach ends up more efficient than the traditional 'protein every 2 hours to keep the muscle fed'


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Major Eyeswater said:


> There's an article by Lyle McDonald on his website where he talks about the idea that deliberately allowing blood amino acid levels to bounce around is more effective than trying to keep them high all the time with frequent feeding. He speculates that this is why intermittent fasting appears to work well - because the periods of low amino acid levels help to resensitise the muscle and make the uptake more efficient when protein does come in, and this approach ends up more efficient than the traditional 'protein every 2 hours to keep the muscle fed'


Yes, I do it because to me the science suggests it may be optimal (for natties), on the basis of stimulating muscle protein synthesis. But this is primarily based on acute response data not long term studies which is why I absolutely do not make claims that this is the way for others to go. Experts in this sort of research have varying opinions too, and more studies are being done all the time. I only sometimes mention it in passing when people start stressing about making three tubs of chicken and rice everyday for work, because actually I don't think it's certain that doing this is best anyway, although it might be. I used to do this, but now don't, and I don't miss the hassle, including trying to eat meals at odd times at work.


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## The Sweeney (May 8, 2014)

Whilst we're on nutrition.... good fats and bad fats...

I get fat from my diet from eggs, milk, little bit of cheese, some breakfast 'crunch' cereals, then trace amounts in my general day to day 'healthy diet of fruit and veg with the very odd bit of bread/pizza.

Are they good or bad fats?


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## saxondale (Nov 11, 2012)

isn`t there lot of sugar there though? (IMO but note I am not an expert and you would do better not to listen to me at all, ever) sounds to me that you`ve fallen into the trap of bulking when you should be dieting.


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## The Sweeney (May 8, 2014)

saxondale said:


> isn`t there lot of sugar there though? (IMO but note I am not an expert and you would do better not to listen to me at all, ever) sounds to me that you`ve fallen into the trap of bulking when you should be dieting.


Sugar?


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## saxondale (Nov 11, 2012)

The Sweeney said:


> Sugar?


yeah i`m phobic about the stuff - loads of sugar in the crunchy breakfast cereal? I rarely eat fruit for that reason, might be wrong but thats how I`ve always thought it


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## The Sweeney (May 8, 2014)

saxondale said:


> yeah i`m phobic about the stuff - loads of sugar in the crunchy breakfast cereal? I rarely eat fruit for that reason, might be wrong but thats how I`ve always thought it


To be fair, I normally have weetabix, and only have 1 piece of fruit a day so I'm not overly concerned about the stuff. I have some in my tea, but that's staying no matter what. :lol:

At the moment I guess I should be mostly concerned with getting my lifts to a level where I'm not embarrassed to talk numbers!

The fractional plates will help when they turn up. 1kg at a time.

Just my hip hinge mobility and squat form to sort next.


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## essexboy (Sep 7, 2008)

You wont make linear increases until you reach your potential.Increase the weight when you meet or exceed your guide number of reps.This will vary, depending on lift,.motivation, leverage advantages etc.If your increasing AT ALL, then your doing fine.Just make sure your exercises are standardised.There is no point "thinking" youve gotten stronger, when your cheating or moving faster than the last workout.

Diet will have minimal impact on your gains.You have to create the enviroment whereby the gains are stimulated first, before any dietry considerations are important.

If you are not progressing at all, over the course of a few weeks.Examine your intensity and rest.If you are training with balls to the wall intensity, and still not progressing.It may well be you are not recovering.If you stimulate growth but DONT allow for recovery THEN growth/strength will not happen..Dont train two days in a row, insert at least 24 or better 48 hours between workouts.Its not specific muscle recovery, but the systematic recovery(stress) of the workout that you MUST recover from first.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

The Sweeney said:


> Whilst we're on nutrition.... good fats and bad fats...
> 
> I get fat from my diet from eggs, milk, little bit of cheese, some breakfast 'crunch' cereals, then trace amounts in my general day to day 'healthy diet of fruit and veg with the very odd bit of bread/pizza.
> 
> Are they good or bad fats?


Trans fats are definitely bad, and some Omega-3 is definitely good. The rest gets a bit complicated/controversial, particularly studies over the last 5 years re. saturated fats. This is well worth a read:

http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/fats-full-story/#references

This isn't a subject I've looked into a lot, but adding some oily fish, olive oil and nuts to your diet probably wouldn't be a bad idea if you were trying to tick all the healthy eating boxes. As far as olive oil goes you want cheap (refined) stuff if you are going to fry with it as this has a higher smoke point temperature. Extra virgin olive oil may have additional health benefits, so I use this to add to e.g. pasta and cous cous meals I take to work.


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## Major Eyeswater (Nov 2, 2013)

Ultrasonic said:


> Yes, I do it because to me the science suggests it may be optimal (for natties), on the basis of stimulating muscle protein synthesis. But this is primarily based on acute response data not long term studies which is why I absolutely do not make claims that this is the way for others to go. Experts in this sort of research have varying opinions too, and more studies are being done all the time. I only sometimes mention it in passing when people start stressing about making three tubs of chicken and rice everyday for work, because actually I don't think it's certain that doing this is best anyway, although it might be. I used to do this, but now don't, and I don't miss the hassle, including trying to eat meals at odd times at work.


You're absolutely right - this has not been settled yet, and there are so many variables that I wouldn't be surprised if some people do better on one than the other. Pro bodybuilders have done the frequent feeding thing for decades, so it clearly works fine.

Personally I prefer 3 or 4 big meals a day. It's more convenient, and I prefer being hungry when I sit down to a meal. Even if frequent feeding.


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## Major Eyeswater (Nov 2, 2013)

Ultrasonic said:


> The rest gets a bit complicated/controversial, particularly studies over the last 5 years re. saturated fats.


One complication seems to be that saturated fats are bad for people who are inactive and/or in caloric surplus, but perfectly okay for active people and/or those in caloric deficit.

Then you have the fact that saturated fats keep the hormonal system working well - so dropping them too low starts to be a problem.

But the main issue is that there are a collection of genetotypes that drastically change the way that people respond to saturated fats. People with one gene can consume as much saturated fat as they please without impacting significantly on their cholesterol levels, whilst others are so badly affected that they would be better off turning vegan


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Major Eyeswater said:


> Pro bodybuilders have done the frequent feeding thing for decades, so it clearly works fine.


Absolutely, this is a question of what might be optimal, no one would claim alternatives don't work! And I think it would be a totally different question if on gear too. But like you I'm perfectly content having 3 or 4 bigger meals per day.


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## The Sweeney (May 8, 2014)

Major Eyeswater said:


> One complication seems to be that saturated fats are bad for people who are inactive and/or in caloric surplus, but perfectly okay for active people and/or those in caloric deficit.
> 
> Then you have the fact that saturated fats keep the hormonal system working well - so dropping them too low starts to be a problem.
> 
> But the main issue is that there are a collection of genetotypes that drastically change the way that people respond to saturated fats. People with one gene can consume as much saturated fat as they please without impacting significantly on their cholesterol levels, whilst others are so badly affected that they would be better off turning vegan


When it comes to fats, there's two things I think of...

1) Back in the 40, 50, 60s etc a working man would have all sorts of fats in his diet - all the fat on the meat, dripping sandwiches the lot, yet a full hard days work in the steel works or down the mine left him like a racing snake.

2) Arctic expeditions - they simply can't cram enough calories in their bodies and have nutrition bars absolutely loaded to the hilt with fats as the highest concentration of calories in a given mass as possible. At the end of the expedition, they're borderline malnourished.

Not sure what to take from that, but it raises my interest.

As mentioned, sugar is the relative new comer to the western diet...


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## Major Eyeswater (Nov 2, 2013)

The Sweeney said:


> When it comes to fats, there's two things I think of...
> 
> 1) Back in the 40, 50, 60s etc a working man would have all sorts of fats in his diet - all the fat on the meat, dripping sandwiches the lot, yet a full hard days work in the steel works or down the mine left him like a racing snake.
> 
> ...


My (semi) educated guess would be that when you are in a metabolic state where you are burning off all the incoming calories as energy, then it doesn't really matter whether they are saturated, unsaturated, omega 3 or whatever - they just get fed straight into cells and blazed.

It's when these different types of fat are shunted into storage that they start to have a more significant effect. I've read on the Alan Aragon Research Review the idea that fish-oil should be taken with a high carb meal, because the incoming carbs shift the body into glucose burning and any fat goes to storage - which is what you want when you're spending money on special oils.

The two examples you gave are simple caloric balance. Arctic explorers burn more calories than they can eat, even when they put huge dollops of butter into their morning porridge. I was reading about some bloke who rowed across the atlantic, and his main food source was ground almonds mixed with olive oil.


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## The Sweeney (May 8, 2014)

Major Eyeswater said:


> My (semi) educated guess would be that when you are in a metabolic state where you are burning off all the incoming calories as energy, then it doesn't really matter whether they are saturated, unsaturated, omega 3 or whatever - they just get fed straight into cells and blazed.
> 
> It's when these different types of fat are shunted into storage that they start to have a more significant effect. I've read on the Alan Aragon Research Review the idea that fish-oil should be taken with a high carb meal, because the incoming carbs shift the body into glucose burning and any fat goes to storage - which is what you want when you're spending money on special oils.
> 
> The two examples you gave are simple caloric balance. Arctic explorers burn more calories than they can eat, even when they put huge dollops of butter into their morning porridge. I was reading about some bloke who rowed across the atlantic, and his main food source was ground almonds mixed with olive oil.


All makes sense.

I often think that at my sub novice level of strength (I got all excited last night at getting 3x5 bench at 87.5) I just need to train my ass off and not get too fat whilst eating **** loads of protein.

Or at least that's what my brain wants to be the case. :lol:

Oh, and I woke up this morning to the reassuring 'chime' that the eBay app makes on your phone when your fractional plates have been shipped! :thumb:


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## Major Eyeswater (Nov 2, 2013)

The Sweeney said:


> I often think that at my sub novice level of strength (I got all excited last night at getting 3x5 bench at 87.5) I just need to train my ass off and not get too fat whilst eating **** loads of protein.


Exactly

You hear a lot that bodybuilding is 80% nutrition. Even if you could quantify it, nutrition only becomes a really important thing when you're at high levels and preparing for contest.

For beginners though, it's all about training. Eat enough protein, the right number of calories and get your veggies in, and that's really as much as you need to sweat about.


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## Sub97 (Dec 6, 2012)

The Sweeney said:


> All makes sense.
> 
> I often think that at my sub novice level of strength (I got all excited last night at getting 3x5 bench at 87.5) I just need to train my ass off and not get too fat whilst eating **** loads of protein.
> 
> ...


That might not be as much as a lot of people on here mate, but I don't think many people would be classing 87.5 kg bp as sub novice level!

I'm similar to you, but been doing Stronglifts for the last couple of months. Enjoyed it when I was going up every week, but now plateaued on shoulder press (cant get past 50kg), bent over rows (can't get past 75kg and keep decent form and get 5x5) and bench press (went right up to 85kg 5x5 every time, then failed at 85kg this week), and it's starting to irritate..


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## The Sweeney (May 8, 2014)

Major Eyeswater said:


> Exactly
> 
> You hear a lot that bodybuilding is 80% nutrition. Even if you could quantify it, nutrition only becomes a really important thing when you're at high levels and preparing for contest.
> 
> For beginners though, it's all about training. Eat enough protein, the right number of calories and get your veggies in, and that's really as much as you need to sweat about.


I'm trying my best.

Just fed up of being 'slender'

My goal is to have similar proportions to a decent sized rugby player.


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## The Sweeney (May 8, 2014)

Sub97 said:


> That might not be as much as a lot of people on here mate, but I don't think many people would be classing 87.5 kg bp as sub novice level!
> 
> I'm similar to you, but been doing Stronglifts for the last couple of months. Enjoyed it when I was going up every week, but now plateaued on shoulder press (cant get past 50kg), bent over rows (can't get past 75kg and keep decent form and get 5x5) and bench press (went right up to 85kg 5x5 every time, then failed at 85kg this week), and it's starting to irritate..


Fair doo's

I'm 6'4" though and really feel I should be much bigger / stronger.

Currently my starting strength stats are as follows:

Bench - 87.5 - Getting very tough

DL - 102.5 - still climbing

Power cleans - 45kg - still climbing as only just started doing them

Press - 47.5kg - at my absolute limit and still 1 rep away from 3x5

Squat - 50kg - Not enough hip hinge mobility, can't engage glutes/hams, terrible form, constant hip flexor/groin pain, something terribly wrong and needs coaching.

I'm working on my hip hinge and starting physio on my injury on Saturday morning. Terrible squat form is causing weird compensation muscular strains. If I'm busting a gut to squat 50kg yet can;t feel anything in my glutes or hams despite doing low bar, there's something catastrophically wrong.


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## Sub97 (Dec 6, 2012)

The Sweeney said:


> Fair doo's
> 
> I'm 6'4" though and really feel I should be much bigger / stronger.
> 
> ...


Squats - 50kg on each side or 50kg in total including the bar?

Yeah know what you mean, I'm 6'3", weigh 90kgs, I want to be able to lift more too. Just don't think your BP is that bad mate.

I struggle with squats, I genuinely don't think it helps being so tall!

Hopefully some coaching will help you out mate.


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## Major Eyeswater (Nov 2, 2013)

Sub97 said:


> I don't think many people would be classing 87.5 kg bp as sub novice level!


Agreed - that's a respectable bench press for someone who hasn't been training long.

Took me about 4 years to hit 90k when I started.


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## The Sweeney (May 8, 2014)

Sub97 said:


> Squats - 50kg on each side or 50kg in total including the bar?
> 
> Yeah know what you mean, I'm 6'3", weigh 90kgs, I want to be able to lift more too. Just don't think your BP is that bad mate.
> 
> ...


50kg total!!! Bar + 15kg each side.

Any heavier and the pain in my groin/hip flexor is too much and I'm out of the game for 2 weeks healing again.

I broke it down to segments and realised that my hams were getting tight at only half depth, below that my lower back was rounding terribly, so in the hole I was relying on my quads and lower back to get me up again, off balance, bar moving forwards and something that resembled a poorly executed good morning.

If I force myself into a movement mould where I go down very slowly and stop as soon as any of the ideal pattern parameters exceed 'normal' I can't get lower than about half way.

I'm doing the foam rolling, agile 8, stretches - the full hit, but the injury needs physio as the minute I try to even try a warm up squat on the empty bar, BOOM, I feel the pain again, so the squat is basically a dud exercise for me until I can get my sh1t together.


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## The Sweeney (May 8, 2014)

Major Eyeswater said:


> Agreed - that's a respectable bench press for someone who hasn't been training long.
> 
> Took me about 4 years to hit 90k when I started.


That's kind, but I've been training since April and the rest of my lifts are nothing like as good, so it's my one area of least embarrassment. I know I won't be happy until I can blast out 3x5 @ 2 plates a side though, as that was what I could do in my early 20's (now nearly 39) after 15 years behind a desk with wnaking being my only form of exercise since.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Sub97 said:


> That might not be as much as a lot of people on here mate, but I don't think many people would be classing 87.5 kg bp as sub novice level!
> 
> I'm similar to you, but been doing Stronglifts for the last couple of months. Enjoyed it when I was going up every week, but now plateaued on shoulder press (cant get past 50kg), bent over rows (can't get past 75kg and keep decent form and get 5x5) and bench press (went right up to 85kg 5x5 every time, then failed at 85kg this week), and it's starting to irritate..


Bear in mind that Stronglifts recommends dropping from 5X5 to 3X5 when progress stalls. Do also consider a deload when you get stuck, it's pointless trying week after week with the same weight.


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## monkeybiker (Jul 21, 2010)

You know a cheap way to make micro weights is to get some of them plastic money bags and fill with 1 or 2 pence coins. Tie some string to them and tape them up.


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## Sub97 (Dec 6, 2012)

Ultrasonic said:


> Bear in mind that Stronglifts recommends dropping from 5X5 to 3X5 when progress stalls. Do also consider a deload when you get stuck, it's pointless trying week after week with the same weight.


Thanks Ultrasonic, I will give that a go.


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## The Sweeney (May 8, 2014)

monkeybiker said:


> You know a cheap way to make micro weights is to get some of them plastic money bags and fill with 1 or 2 pence coins. Tie some string to them and tape them up.


I tried that making 25kg plates.... cost me a fortune!


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## saxondale (Nov 11, 2012)

you can`t keep increasing indefinitely though - surely?


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## The Sweeney (May 8, 2014)

saxondale said:


> you can`t keep increasing indefinitely though - surely?


The system suggests that once you are squatting at least 1.5X your own body weight AND have had to deload your squat at least three times to advance, that is the point where you have got the most out of it and is time to move on to a more advanced system such as madcow etc.

Oh, and you must be really fat and have consumed an olympic swimming pool of whole milk... or something.

EDIT: @saxondale - saw this and thought of you!


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## saxondale (Nov 11, 2012)

The Sweeney said:


> The system suggests that once you are squatting at least 1.5X your own body weight AND have had to deload your squat at least three times to advance, that is the point where you have got the most out of it and is time to move on to a more advanced system such as madcow etc.


cool, whats your target lifts mate?


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## The Sweeney (May 8, 2014)

saxondale said:


> cool, whats your target lifts mate?


Based on this table, http://www.exrx.net/Testing/WeightLifting/BenchStandardsKg.html I'd like to officially be of an intermediate standard on all lifts before moving on.

At 100kg body weight, that would suggest I should be capable of:-

Squat - 135kg

Dead Lift - 160kg

Bench - 100kg

Shoulder Press - 70kg

Power Clean - 95kg

The two that I can see being a real problem will be the shoulder press and power clean. I know what it feels like to DL 95kg as I've been doing it recently, so the concept of yanking that up and onto my front delts seems an impossible mission, but one I accept graciously.


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## saxondale (Nov 11, 2012)

The Sweeney said:


> The system suggests that once you are squatting at least 1.5X your own body weight AND have had to deload your squat at least three times to advance, that is the point where you have got the most out of it and is time to move on to a more advanced system such as madcow etc.
> 
> Oh, and you must be really fat and have consumed an olympic swimming pool of whole milk... or something.
> 
> EDIT: @saxondale - saw this and thought of you!


still not sure what you`re saying there fella, lol


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## The Sweeney (May 8, 2014)

saxondale said:


> still not sure what you`re saying there fella, lol


Just noticed your avatar and assumed you'd appreciate Kermits alter ego 

Can't find the Miss Piggy version anywhere.


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## The Sweeney (May 8, 2014)

Dunno about fractional plates, but these 'Strength Shop' nipple rings really hurt.


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## Major Eyeswater (Nov 2, 2013)

The Sweeney said:


> Dunno about fractional plates, but these 'Strength Shop' nipple rings really hurt.


When I got mine, I stuck a picture up on Facebook of me holding one of the 0.25kg plates and jokingly saying "getting hardcore now"

A gay friend of mine immediately commented "Ooohh - you've bought me a c0ck-ring"


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## harryalmighty (Nov 13, 2011)

Ultrasonic said:


> I've yet to see any evidence there is such a thing as a 'correct macro ratio' though, so I don't even think that works. As far as I'm concerned it makes far more sense to sort out protein and then worry about how to split the remaining calories between carbs and fats.


yes exactly, the key is just being consistent and not having 30% of your remaining kcals from fat and 70% from carbs one day then 55% fat and 45% carb the next.


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## The Sweeney (May 8, 2014)

harryalmighty said:


> yes exactly, the key is just being consistent and not having 30% of your remaining kcals from fat and 70% from carbs one day then 55% fat and 45% carb the next.


So no just alternating McDonalds shakes with protein shakes then? (With fries for carbs)


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## harryalmighty (Nov 13, 2011)

The Sweeney said:


> So no just alternating McDonalds shakes with protein shakes then? (With fries for carbs)


just what ever you do be consistent and keep tweaking every now and then until you find whats optimal for you. only overall kcals are going to affect body composition everything else is energy / mood / recovery rate etc.


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## The Sweeney (May 8, 2014)

harryalmighty said:


> just what ever you do be consistent and keep tweaking every now and then until you find whats optimal for you. only overall kcals are going to affect body composition everything else is energy / mood / recovery rate etc.


Energy and mood seems to be a big variable, I'll admit. I was kidding about the McDonalds poison BTW :lol:


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## harryalmighty (Nov 13, 2011)

The Sweeney said:


> Energy and mood seems to be a big variable, I'll admit. I was kidding about the McDonalds poison BTW :lol:


obviously other things like sleep will affect energy and mood but my energy and effort in gym is almost always consistent and i gathered.


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## The Sweeney (May 8, 2014)

Well, it's official: I SUCK DONKEY BALLS

Shoulder press - this was gonna be the one, I was knock out 5x5 @ 47.5kg if it's the last thing I did - I mean last session was 5,5,4 so what could possibly go wrong? I had 11 hours sleep as I'm off on holiday, I've eaten like a champ and had a nice restful day talking sh1t with strangers on the internet wearing only my boxer shorts wondering if there is ever a time when it's now too late to open the curtains and to leave them closed for the rest of the day.... you get the picture.

So, few decent warm up sets, ready to go, teeth gritted to filling crumbling levels and off we go.... JUST, and I mean only JUST got the 5th rep out after a 3 second pause between 4 and 5, but with the bar climbing an inch per second, I got it up.

This is where psychology comes into it I think... as my often overly analytical and overly logical brain kicked in and said, well, you're scientifically, biologically gonna have less energy for the next set, so you're fcked pal...

Hmmm.

I gave it a full 5 minutes, limbered up and gave the second set a go - the third rep was like the 5th on the previous set and the fourth rep I couldn't get the bar past my forehead.

TW4T!!!

What's worse was that a really fit woman was right behind me on the cross trainer and at very close range watched me FAAAAIIIIILLLL <DEEP X-FACTOR ECHO VOICE>

Feeling that my life was no longer worth living, and having basically shown the woman behind me that I suffer from erectile dysfunction and have never given any woman anywhere ever an orgasm, I leant against the rack and pondered the quickest most pain free method of suicide available to me in the near vicinity. I did some hamstring stretches whilst I pondered my demise.

Just as I'd worked out how to rig up some kind of noose arrangement in one of the high pulley cables to hang myself with, I thought it'd be rude not to at least attempt the final set, if for no other reason than to prove to the 'fit cross-trainer woman' that I probably didn't even have the strength to give her tits a decent squeeze.

Well fcuk me, I got 5 out... go fcuking figure. Admittedly, the last rep was another one of those will he/won't he only just affairs, but I ground it out due to leaning back a bit sooner and a bit earlier which allowed me to carry a little more momentum as the bar passed my forehead.

So - what the 'I can't believe it's not butter' has gone on there then?

I officially managed 1 rep less than last time, but got more out on the last set?

To make myself feel a little better I finished off doing a set of chins to failure over on one of the cross-fit monkey bar climbing frame thingy-ma-jigs where loads of women do weird sh1t with ropes anchored to the floor and long plastic logs.... they're plotting something, I know it... Anyway, I got to my 8th rep and farted. A loud fart. Loud enough that it was heard.

I left and didn't look back.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

^

Great post!

Now find yourself a sports psychology book and get reading...


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## Bataz (Jan 21, 2014)

Hahahaha great post.


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## saxondale (Nov 11, 2012)

new gym Monday then mate


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