# Dorain Yates/Kai Greene view on cals.



## Thunderstruck (Sep 20, 2010)

I was very fortunate to meet Dorian Yates and Kai Greene at the Expo friday and had the chance to chat for a few minutes and they were happy to give me advice.

My main question i asked them both was as i am looking to lose fat was what was their view on people saying a calories is a calorie and its all about calories in versus calories out.

Both of them confirmed what i had thought in that its not that simple and that the body uses and reacts to different foods in different ways.

I basically said how so many people (on here mainly) i read say its just a simple case of calories in and calories out and they both say thats total bull as carb cals will affect insulin levels promoting fat storage etc whereas fat/protein cals wont and will fill you up for longer and mean you wont get the insulin spike causing fat storage.

SO...........

If that has been confirmed by the likes of Yates and Greene why do so many still insist its a simple case of a calorie is a calorie??


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## baggsy1436114680 (Jan 23, 2010)

You should have asked them what cycles they run instead


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## The-Big-One (Apr 11, 2010)

I would assume its to keep it simple for beginners, not to overwhelm them and if they want to learn more they can do their own research


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## Smitch (Dec 29, 2008)

Everyone on here knows better than a pro of course....


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## Thunderstruck (Sep 20, 2010)

If that was the case then they would have just said burn more calories than you consume


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## h901 (Jul 4, 2010)

Proof or gtfo....

Technically a calorie is a calorie but obvoiusly depending on the source of the calorie the body will react differently as you've stated.

Therefore depending on your goal you'll need to choose your source of calories wisely!


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## Thunderstruck (Sep 20, 2010)

Smitch said:


> Everyone on here knows better than a pro of course....


Wasnt going to go there but........................yeah


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## h901 (Jul 4, 2010)

baggsy said:


> You should have asked them what cycles they run instead


They're natty, didn't you know -_- lol


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## Thunderstruck (Sep 20, 2010)

h901 said:


> Proof or gtfo....
> 
> Technically a calorie is a calorie but obvoiusly depending on the source of the calorie the body will react differently as you've stated.
> 
> Therefore depending on your goal you'll need to choose your source of calories wisely!


Its not me thats stated it, its what they said. Yates also touched on it in his seminar when he said when losing fat the first thing that needs to be reduced is the carbs due to the insulin effect.

So explain to me how a calorie is still a calorie??


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## h901 (Jul 4, 2010)

Thunderstruck said:


> Its not me thats stated it, its what they said. Yates also touched on it in his seminar when he said when losing fat the first thing that needs to be reduced is the carbs due to the insulin effect.
> 
> So explain to me how a calorie is still a calorie??


I meant as you've stated in your post

A calorie is a calorie in the sense that say you need 3000 cals a day, if you get all 3000 from protein, your still getting 3000. The same for carbs and fats

Carbs, fats and protein all will provide you with the calories and the end of the day.


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## Thunderstruck (Sep 20, 2010)

h901 said:


> I meant as you've stated in your post
> 
> A calorie is a calorie in the sense that say you need 3000 cals a day, if you get all 3000 from protein, your still getting 3000. The same for carbs and fats
> 
> Carbs, fats and protein all will provide you with the calories and the end of the day.


Yeah thats what i said to them coz i wanted to clarify but they said for losing fat you will lose more fat with 3000cals from protein/fat for example than you would 3000 from carbs due to the insulin and blood sugar problems, so why is it still said on here by a few that its a simple case of cals when the pros say it isnt.

I know who i will trust and go with but just wanted to understand it all, im not that up on nutrition and im sure some on here/newbies will go with the advice even when it isnt the best way.


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## Malibu (May 13, 2010)

Protein effects insulin... so I guess thats out the window aswell huh?


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## big_jim_87 (Jul 9, 2009)

ffs... you get time to talk to kia and yates and you ask them this?

i could have told you this lol

who on here said a cal us a cal?

ti a degree it is and you should loose weight if out is mire then in... but as they said the body will use diff macros in diff ways...

id have been more inclined to ask them about bucking cals... what kinda things they did that got them from say 200-260lb plus off season... any one can get lean there is no real secret... id be after the info to get big...


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## Thunderstruck (Sep 20, 2010)

Haha i love the guys getting all defensive, im just feeding back what they answered to me, thought someone might find it interesting to get it from guys like them rather than just someone sitting at their keyboard.

I can see why some people dont bother on here any more!


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## Dead lee (Jul 4, 2010)

I think people mean you work off a 40/30/30 protein/carb/fat roughly and then work off calorie in calorie out..

Of course if you just ate carbs as your main source you would get fat, same as if you ate pizza all day as your main source of food.


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## smaj210 (Aug 1, 2009)

more importantly did you ask them about the fish, fish and rice cakes, fish, fish and rice cake ....................diet?


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## Irish Beast (Jun 16, 2009)

Interesting post mate and something I have wondered about as well!


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## Markyboy81 (Jan 27, 2012)

Dead lee said:


> I think people mean you work off a 40/30/30 protein/carb/fat roughly and then work off calorie in calorie out..
> 
> Of course if you just ate carbs as your main source you would get fat, same as if you ate pizza all day as your main source of food.


I don't agree that this is the case, even if you ate nothing but pizza you would not gain weight if you did not eat above your maintenance number of calories.

Agreed that eating more carbs will raise insulin levels and soon after that the blood sugar levels will fall, resulting in the body sending a signal to the brain that it needs food when it doesn't. This extra food is then stored as fat but only because the person is then in calorie surplus. It's physically impossible to gain fat if you don't go into calorie surplus, regardless of where those calories come from. So in that sense a calorie is a calorie.


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## jwmann2 (May 20, 2012)

Thunderstruck said:


> I was very fortunate to meet Dorian Yates and Kai Greene at the Expo friday and had the chance to chat for a few minutes and they were happy to give me advice.
> 
> My main question i asked them both was as i am looking to lose fat was what was their view on people saying a calories is a calorie and its all about calories in versus calories out.
> 
> ...


When it comes to burning calories, your body wants to burn the carbs first and then fat which is why low carb is ideal. If you have little body fat, then that's when you have to start worrying about muscle being burned during your cardio. I do agree in terms of the foods that you eat. There are really only 7 or 8 foods that can create the leanest body possible.


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## gymgym (Mar 20, 2012)

Markyboy81 said:


> I don't agree that this is the case, even if you ate nothing but pizza you would not gain weight if you did not eat above your maintenance number of calories.


Wrong. It's all about the quality of the calories u ingest.

*Proteins* (4calories per gram): regardless of some saying otherwise, u will not put on fat using too much proteins unless it is to some great extent.

*Carbs* (4calories per gram): linear carbs (complex) will release sugar at a more steady rate than simple carbs tho both are sugars calories and should be used in moderation.

*Fats* (9calories per gram): needed to balance the hormonal system but bad fats are to be avoided such as saturated fats.

To sum it up, eating a pizza will make u gain weight 'cose most calories in there are "junk" or "trash" calories and will have consequences on ur system response wherever eating the same amount of calories on proteins only would keep u in a much healthier balance. It's like an equation = logical to me.


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## Markyboy81 (Jan 27, 2012)

Still don't agree. Have a look at this study where over 800 overweight people were put on different macro nutrient diets over a period of 2 years. Their weight loss was the same. There's no such thing as trash calories

http://www.weightlosstriumph.com/comparison-of-weight-loss-diets-is-the-macronutrient-ratio-important.html


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## gymgym (Mar 20, 2012)

Markyboy81 said:


> Still don't agree. Have a look at this study where over 800 overweight people were put on different macro nutrient diets over a period of 2 years. Their weight loss was the same. There's no such thing as trash calories
> 
> http://www.weightlosstriumph.com/comparison-of-weight-loss-diets-is-the-macronutrient-ratio-important.html


lol All right Mark. I am no gonna read it. I've been in the fitness business long enough to make a great living out of this and how: by teaching to people those very same believes and my body is a living example of what I believe.

If all my (past and present) clients were allowed to eat pizza daily instead of grilled chicken, salmon and shakes then do u really think they would need me or ask for me ? No.

I think there's no much more to add is there ?


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## Markyboy81 (Jan 27, 2012)

So you're not going to read it because it might prove you wrong? You're just going to dismiss it. Fair enough, if you've carried out your own comprehensive research on this that's great, doesn't really sound like it though


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## Kimball (Feb 26, 2012)

big_jim_87 said:


> ffs... you get time to talk to kia and yates and you ask them this?
> 
> i could have told you this lol
> 
> ...


Most on here say this to be fair, I've never believed it, if I cut carbs and eat the same calories I lose fat, enough to see over a week and nothing to do with water retention.

Since I started having a cheat day once a week 3 weeks ago I have gained a little fat, so that's going again.


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## Breda (May 2, 2011)

Markyboy81:3139584 said:


> So you're not going to read it because it might prove you wrong? You're just going to dismiss it. Fair enough, if you've carried out your own comprehensive research on this that's great, doesn't really sound like it though


He won't read it and you won't change his mind... Trust me!


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## gummyp (Aug 16, 2011)

gymgym said:


> Wrong. It's all about the quality of the calories u ingest.
> 
> *Proteins* (4calories per gram): regardless of some saying otherwise, u will not put on fat using too much proteins unless it is to some great extent.
> 
> ...


Protein blunts the oxidation of fat so yes you can get fat from too much protein.


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## Mingster (Mar 25, 2011)

I think there's truth in both.

I think that to get into show shape the quality of your cals comes into play to a greater degree. I have lost 11 lbs in 4 weeks on a fairly high carb diet with a pre workout chocky bar and the occasional pasty/pizza etc. I still get 350g+ of protein and good carbs and fats. I will have a 6 pack showing in another 3 weeks with this diet. If I wanted to get completely ripped I would cut the crap, except for refeeds.

There are lots of competitive bodybuilders that keep carbs relatively high until two weeks out from a show, although a low carb diet works best for most.


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## JAY TB (Jan 22, 2012)

Kimball said:


> Most on here say this to be fair, I've never believed it, if I cut carbs and eat the same calories I lose fat, enough to see over a week and nothing to do with water retention.
> 
> Since I started having a cheat day once a week 3 weeks ago I have gained a little fat, so that's going again.


Seriously Kimball? In a week you see results? Whats your split mate? 40/30/30, OR 50/30/20 ?

Any tips much appreciated.


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## miguelmolez (Apr 12, 2010)

Going low on your carbs during dieting does work very well, but remember that LEPTIN is an excellent fat burner, so refeeds when on low carb are benificial.


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## Malibu (May 13, 2010)

Didnt DY have chocolate bars in his contest prep...? So doesnt that go against what hes just said...


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## adamcmwck (Apr 4, 2012)

Good book to read if you want someone's first hand research is the 4hr body. Full of his experiements and findings on diet, carbs and types of carbs, insulin spikes etc. I followed it and dropped from 23% bf to 18% body fat in 5 months without doing a fat lot else.

Only sources of carbs I eat are : 100g oats a day, lentils, beans (black,harrricot,kidney etc), gram flour and vegetables. No bread, pasta, potatoes etc.

Really good book tbh.


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## h901 (Jul 4, 2010)

Markyboy is right. If your body has a basal metabolic rate of 2000 calories a day and you were to eat pizza all day which equated to 1900 calories worth of pizza. You will not put on weight. As your body is burning more cals than you are ingesting.


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## Malibu (May 13, 2010)

adamcmwck said:


> Good book to read if you want someone's first hand research is the 4hr body. Full of his experiements and findings on diet, carbs and types of carbs, insulin spikes etc. I followed it and dropped from 23% bf to 18% body fat in 5 months without doing a fat lot else.
> 
> Only sources of carbs I eat are : 100g oats a day, lentils, beans (black,harrricot,kidney etc), gram flour and vegetables. No bread, pasta, potatoes etc.
> 
> Really good book tbh.


I went from around 17-12% eating IIFYM style in 5 weeks, you dont need to eat clean its all about in vs out


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## m575 (Apr 4, 2010)

Malibu said:


> Didnt DY have chocolate bars in his contest prep...? So doesnt that go against what hes just said...


how does it go against what he said? Where did he say he never eats chocolate or any carbs?


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## Malibu (May 13, 2010)

m575 said:


> how does it go against what he said? Where did he say he never eats chocolate or any carbs?


urgh the fact they are saying 'bad' carbs will make you store fat, chocolate being one of these..


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## &lt;JAY_JAY&gt; (Jan 4, 2007)

cool you get ya photo took lol


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## m575 (Apr 4, 2010)

Malibu said:


> urgh the fact they are saying 'bad' carbs will make you store fat, chocolate being one of these..


I spose he just dropped you a text and let you know his prep diet then?


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## GolfDelta (Jan 5, 2010)

Love how people would argue black was white just for the sake of it.Good post Thunderstruck thanks for sharing.


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## ZyZee_2012 (Jan 1, 2010)

So from what I understand you can eat IIFYM style up to your maintenance calories and not put on any weight, regardless of the type of foods eaten. The only difference is if you eat toward the 'bad' side, due to insulin makes you more prone to eating more frequently due to the rollercoaster blood sugar levels, thus leaving you more prone to eat more and have risk of over eating.

So eating bad requires more self control to keep the diet tight, where as eating clean sends less signals and therefore makes it easier to stick to.

So, in conclusion you can eat however you want but eating clean will make it easier in the long run.

That's my understanding.


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## Malibu (May 13, 2010)

m575 said:


> I spose he just dropped you a text and let you know his prep diet then?


Lol.. there is a video of him saying it himself


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## m575 (Apr 4, 2010)

J4Y_2012 said:


> So from what I understand you can eat IIFYM style up to your maintenance calories and not put on any weight, regardless of the type of foods eaten. The only difference is if you eat toward the 'bad' side, due to insulin makes you more prone to eating more frequently due to the rollercoaster blood sugar levels, thus leaving you more prone to eat more and have risk of over eating.
> 
> So eating bad requires more self control to keep the diet tight, where as eating clean sends less signals and therefore makes it easier to stick to.
> 
> ...


The thing is though just Losing weight, and losing fat whilst holding on to as much muscle as possible is two completely different things.


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## Dorian Gray (Dec 5, 2011)

Its a bit of both.

Your body needs a certain amount of cals a day for energy, lets say its 3000 for arguments sake. Now your body will burn any food (calories) to get this energy. So if you only take in 2900 cals then you will not gain weight, because your body has already burned all of the calories you ate for energy. If you ate 3100 calories, which would mean you are in excess of 100 calories over what your body needs a day, then the 100 cals will be stored as fat, as it is in excess, and your body will store for it for future when there is a lack of food.

So yes its down to cals in cals out for energy.

BUT for body compisition it is a different story. You body needs a certain amount of carbs fat and protein. If we want to gain muscle we need to feed our muscles with the right amount of protein etc. Usually a split of some thing like 40/40/20 will suffice. So just because some one says its a case of cals in v cals out does not mean you can fill those calls any way you wish, you should divide your 3000 cals up between the different macronutrient requirements i.e. protein, carb, fat


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## GolfDelta (Jan 5, 2010)

Malibu said:


> I went from around 17-12% eating IIFYM style in 5 weeks, you dont need to eat clean its all about in vs out


But everyone is different mate,everyone's body resonds differently so what works for you might not work for others.Look at the huge variety in diet for pro BBers some eat low carbs while others get away with loads during prep.


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## adamcmwck (Apr 4, 2012)

Malibu said:


> I went from around 17-12% eating IIFYM style in 5 weeks, you dont need to eat clean its all about in vs out


That's good buddy. I was trying to point out just change where the carbs are sourced from has made me drop wieght.

My mrs does ZERO training and following the same diet has gone from 58.6 to 49.9kg (5"2) and is now a size 8 again after having two kids. So she is happy lol.

We have a cheat day (I just have cheat meal) usually pizza. Now she can jump on the scales the following two days and show 0 difference. I jump on the scales having just eaten pizza and I've gone up 0.5-1kg. So my body reacts differently than hers to it.


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## David2012 (Feb 29, 2012)

that is totally correct

calories in vs out has very little to do with it, its all about the food you are eating.

the reason you get fat is because of hormones in your body.

a study was done on mice. 2 perfect healthy mice, they removed both of their ovaries and put the rats into their cage and the rats were ravenous, eating so much food it was untrue and they became obese.

the same study then removed 2 more rats ovaries and put the rats back into their cage, but this time on a strict calorie controlled diet. What happened ? The rats got just as fat as the ones who had unlimited food to eat

This was because with the ovary removal, therefore eostrogen removal the body is primed for fat. It has these signals called LPL signals, and what they do is they pull fat from the bloodstream and bring it to whatever cell is giving off the lpl signal. So if a muscle cell is asking for it then it will go there and get used for energy, but if a fat cell is asking for it then the fat cell will get it and get stored as fat. Now because those calories have been stolen and been stored as fat then your body needs to consume extra calories to make up for the stolen calories so you will eat more. In the case of the rats that couldnt eat more because of the diet then had been forced on, they became virtually sedentary, only moving when necessary to get food, getting just as fat as the rats with unlimited food.

If the bodys hormones are out of whack and sending signals to store fat, then youre getting fat. Its alot to do with hormones, say you was growing tall going through a growth spurt, that is because of hormones, so why when we grow outwards in terms of fats etc do people just think its not because of hormones ?

Different foods send different signals, carbs create insulin spikes for example which are counter productive to fat loss

A calorie isnt just a calorie as they react in different ways in the body and give the body signals to do different things


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## ZyZee_2012 (Jan 1, 2010)

m575 said:


> The thing is though just Losing weight, and losing fat whilst holding on to as much muscle as possible is two completely different things.


I understand that.

The main discussion here though is carbohydrates isn't it? In terms of the insulin argument, blood sugar etc (clean vs dirty)

I said weight to cover both fat and muscle, however I mentioned IIFYM which, if you were looking to preserve muscle you'd have a good macro high ratio for protein wouldn't you.

I was simply stating eating clean makes it easier in the long run mentally to stick to clean foods and result in less temptation to over eat, tipping you into calorie surplus.

Thanks for the smart ass comment though.


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## 36-26 (Jun 30, 2009)

You can't change the laws of thermodynamics. Cals in V cals out but but but when it comes to body composition then of course macronutrients start to matter. The reason carbs are cut when dieting is because you need a certain amount of protein to keep muscle and you need a certain amount of fat so these stay the same so carbs are all thats left so they have to be the macro to be reduced.

The reason the carbs are reduced is to get into a CALORIE DEFICIT so you lose fat. So then calories do matter but so do macros. Thats why IIFYM work, keto works, 40/40/20 works because in each one you reduce your cals leaving enough protein to keep muscle and enough fat to keep hormones right


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## Nostaw (Apr 8, 2012)

Your diet could consist solely of mcdonalds and pizza, if you are under your calorific maintenance then you will still lose weight. It's as simple as that.


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## 36-26 (Jun 30, 2009)

You would still lose scale weight yes, but I guarantee if you have considerable muscle then you will start to lose it


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## Guest (May 20, 2012)

a calorie is a calorie.

I've dropped 5lb eating whatever the hell I want but just making sure I stayed under maintenance, in 2 weeks.


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## Guest (May 20, 2012)

David2012 said:



> that is totally correct
> 
> *calories in vs out has very little to do with it*, its all about the food you are eating.


This is the dumbest thing ever posted on this forum. lol


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## Mingster (Mar 25, 2011)

A calorie deficit is all you need to lose weight. To maintain muscle whilst losing weight you need protein and aas.

The more muscle you have before you cut the better.


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## gummyp (Aug 16, 2011)

Rat studies don't compare well to humans due to different metabolic pathways e.g. nova de lipogenesis rarely happens in humans


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## David2012 (Feb 29, 2012)

FrankDangerMaus said:


> This is the dumbest thing ever posted on this forum. lol


explain the study i said about rats then ?

why did the rats placed on a calorie controlled diet get just as obese as the ones that could eat as much as they wanted ?

obviously cals in vs out has something to do with it

but your fat stores are regulated by hormones first and foremost and how much you eat and the energy you expend

you never seen a stick thin guy who just eats whatever he wants all day and night and never puts on a pound ? explain that with calories in vs out .........

its to do with hormones


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## greekgod (Sep 6, 2009)

Smitch said:


> Everyone on here knows better than a pro of course....


you would be suprised it might actually be true, loads of pros are like small kids listening to some diet guru/ trainer and only have to stress abt doing it to a T.. Whilst average joe gotta wade thru all of the intricate web of working out what works or not.. thats why u guys are lucky to have guys like Pscarb Ausbuilt etc.. who have experimented on themselves for years and still share those experiences with us... :smartass:


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## Malibu (May 13, 2010)

greekgod said:


> you would be suprised it might actually be true, loads of pros are like small kids listening to some diet guru/ trainer and only have to stress abt doing it to a T.. Whilst average joe gotta wade thru all of the intricate web of working out what works or not.. thats why u guys are lucky to have guys like Pscarb Ausbuilt etc.. who have experimented on themselves for years and still share those experiences with us... :smartass:


This


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## FLEX-ERAZ (Jan 14, 2011)

Should have asked them the important questions..

Whats there favorite take that song?

Whats there favorite power ranger?

towie or made in chelsea?

good cop or bad cop?


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## BlitzAcez (Mar 6, 2008)

I must admit from personal experience, if I have decent meal's and more cal's I seem to put less fat on than if I had three crap meal's. This is by no mean's proof it could just be placebo.

Isn't it down to what the carb's do so if you have carb's it will store as fat more, so this mean's 1950 cal's with so many carb's @ 2000 rmr you might store some as fat?

How can we be sure you don't store cal's as fat if there in decifent? Could I eat sweet's and lard all week and not put any as fat?


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## BlitzAcez (Mar 6, 2008)

RelaxTheBody said:


> Its a bit of both.
> 
> Your body needs a certain amount of cals a day for energy, lets say its 3000 for arguments sake. Now your body will burn any food (calories) to get this energy. So if you only take in 2900 cals then you will not gain weight, because your body has already burned all of the calories you ate for energy. If you ate 3100 calories, which would mean you are in excess of 100 calories over what your body needs a day, then the 100 cals will be stored as fat, as it is in excess, and your body will store for it for future when there is a lack of food.
> 
> ...


If your in a cal deficient diet, will you not put muscle on?

Say I went to the gym doing chest/bicep, and I eat 2900 of chicken/rice/egg's/peanut butter, but I'm at 3000 rmr. Are you really telling me I would gain 0 muscle?

I have a feeling the body will use alot of the cal's on repairing your muscle, FIRST and then use the rest on energy and stuff.

Ie. I think you can gain muscle with less cal's just because the body will use cal's for repairing no matter what.


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## 36-26 (Jun 30, 2009)

BlitzAcez said:


> I must admit from personal experience, if I have decent meal's and more cal's I seem to put less fat on than if I had three crap meal's. This is by no mean's proof it could just be placebo.
> 
> Isn't it down to what the carb's do so if you have carb's it will store as fat more, so this mean's 1950 cal's with so many carb's @ 2000 rmr you might store some as fat?
> 
> How can we be sure you don't store cal's as fat if there in decifent? Could I eat sweet's and lard all week and not put any as fat?


They might be stored as fat and then used again over the course of the day, your body has to burn 2000 cals


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## m575 (Apr 4, 2010)

J4Y_2012 said:


> I understand that.
> 
> The main discussion here though is carbohydrates isn't it? In terms of the insulin argument, blood sugar etc (clean vs dirty)
> 
> ...


Wasn't made as a smart a55 comment "brah" . Simply stating a fact that was all


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## 36-26 (Jun 30, 2009)

BlitzAcez said:


> If your in a cal deficient diet, will you not put muscle on?
> 
> Say I went to the gym doing chest/bicep, and I eat 2900 of chicken/rice/egg's/peanut butter, but I'm at 3000 rmr. Are you really telling me I would gain 0 muscle?
> 
> ...


Repairing and growing are not the same thing mate


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## Mingster (Mar 25, 2011)

If you need 3000 cals to maintain and you're eating 2500 cals, whatever source these cals are from will be used up over the day trying - and failing - to maintain your current physique.

You won't grow, either fat-wise or muscle-wise, as you are eating insufficient cals to stay the same.


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## 36-26 (Jun 30, 2009)

Mingster said:


> A calorie deficit is all you need to lose weight. To maintain muscle whilst losing weight you need protein and aas.
> 
> The more muscle you have before you cut the better.


This is basically it in a nutshell. Apart from the aas lol. Everyone read this and your question is answered


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## Thunderstruck (Sep 20, 2010)

I think i should clarify here that i asked them about losing BODY FAT not weight, Yates said in his lecture that its easy to lose weight by cutting calories but you will lose some muscle tissue with this which is not what we are trying to do so the guys saying that you will lose weight by taking in less than you burn are correct but are not understanding that i asked about BODYFAT not weight on the scales.....BIG DIFFERENCE.

And to answer the question early on about asking Kai something decent, i did put a tenner in his pants and asked him to dance for me but he just kept the tenner and told me to **** off.


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## BlitzAcez (Mar 6, 2008)

36-26 said:


> Repairing and growing are not the same thing mate


Isn't the muscle being repaired, ie. growing. Call it what you want. My point is I think you could gain muscle in a cal deficient diet as it can't just ignore muscle that needs to be repaired tottally?


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## Thunderstruck (Sep 20, 2010)

Just to add that it was excellent to hear how her came about his HIT training through chats and sessions with Mike Mentzer i think he said. And why it works so well.

He said the 2 sets to failure that he does and train people with are enough to stimulate the muscle to break down enough to grow back bigger and stronger yet doing more sets than that will not give the muscle extra stimulus to grow, it just puts extra stress on the bodys system and makes recovery alot longer.

So good to hear things like this from the horses mouth and not just through 'i heard he does this or that'.


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## BlitzAcez (Mar 6, 2008)

Mingster said:


> If you need 3000 cals to maintain and you're eating 2500 cals, whatever source these cals are from will be used up over the day trying - and failing - to maintain your current physique.
> 
> You won't grow, either fat-wise or muscle-wise, as you are eating insufficient cals to stay the same.


Think about it in terms of what really happen's, I go to the gym and rip all the muscle in my bicep working out. I go home and eat some chicken and rice. Your body isn't going to ask itself how much cal's it's had it will just take some of them anyway and start to repair the bicep.

So I don't think looking at cal's in total's is the right way to look at it. Thing's don't only happen at the end of the day after a calorie count and then it's put in certain area's only if you have had enough cal's. Your body is working at the current time, so how can it know you won't eat later?

Essentially you will have growth even in a cal deficient diet.


----------



## 36-26 (Jun 30, 2009)

BlitzAcez said:


> Isn't the muscle being repaired, ie. growing. Call it what you want. My point is I think you could gain muscle in a cal deficient diet as it can't just ignore muscle that needs to be repaired tottally?


Maybe as a beginner starting out but no I don't think you can grow much if any muscle in a deficit if you are intermediate/advanced. And no repairing and growing are not necessarily the same thing at all. Its hard enough to gain a lot of muscle in a surplus never mind a deficit


----------



## m575 (Apr 4, 2010)

Thunderstruck said:


> I think i should clarify here that i asked them about losing BODY FAT not weight, Yates said in his lecture that its easy to lose weight by cutting calories but you will lose some muscle tissue with this which is not what we are trying to do so the guys saying that you will lose weight by taking in less than you burn are correct but are not understanding that i asked about BODYFAT not weight on the scales.....BIG DIFFERENCE.
> 
> And to answer the question early on about asking Kai something decent, i did put a tenner in his pants and asked him to dance for me but he just kept the tenner and told me to **** off.


Exactly what I was getting at but apparently it was a smart ass comment


----------



## BlitzAcez (Mar 6, 2008)

36-26 said:


> Maybe as a beginner starting out but no I don't think you can grow much if any muscle in a deficit if you are intermediate/advanced. And no repairing and growing are not necessarily the same thing at all. Its hard enough to gain a lot of muscle in a surplus never mind a deficit


These are just word's beginner, intermediate/advanced. Explain why someone who has alot more muscle won't still have there muscle growing if they eat straight after the gym but in cal deficient overall.

You could train then go home and eat 1000 cal's in one meal. Surely you will definitely grow. Then in the evening you eat another 1000 cal's and again later 900 cal's. But you needed 3000 overall.

I think people forget that thing's happen all the way throughout the 24 hour period and not just at the end of the day.


----------



## Markyboy81 (Jan 27, 2012)

I think that there are other factors to consider when trying to maintain muscle, as well as eating sufficient protein. I think it's also important to not reduce calorie intake too drastically and also keep lifting heavy.

A friend of mine competes in bb competitions and when he was cutting he consumed mostly protein but was in such a calorie deficit that he lost a lot of muscle anyway.


----------



## BlitzAcez (Mar 6, 2008)

I bet if you took aas and was in a cal deficient diet you would still grow because of the hormones, especially if you eat well straight after the gym. I wonder if you would lose weight and gain muscle. Sounds ridiculous, but you would repair well with aas and good feed after the gym and then lose fat because your in cal deficient. I'm not saying I know this would work.


----------



## Fit4life (Sep 16, 2011)

Thunderstruck said:


> Yeah thats what i said to them coz i wanted to clarify but they said for losing fat you will lose more fat with 3000cals from protein/fat for example than you would 3000 from carbs due to the insulin and blood sugar problems, so why is it still said on here by a few that its a simple case of cals when the pros say it isnt.
> 
> I know who i will trust and go with but just wanted to understand it all, im not that up on nutrition and im sure some on here/newbies will go with the advice even when it isnt the best way.


surely that is due to the fact that protein requires more energy to burn than it takes through ingestion, food energy can be measured by the amount of ATP generated by metabolizing the food.Each food item has a specific metabolizable energy intake (MEI). This value can be approximated by multiplying the total amount of energy associated with a food item by 85%, which is the typical amount of energy actually obtained by a human after respiration has been completed. In animal nutrition where energy is a critical element of the economics of meat production, a specific metabolizable energy may be determined for each component (protein, fat, etc.) of each ingredient of the feed.Lean protein will help with minimizing those frequent cravings and fluctuations in your blood sugars,protein has what is called a high thermic effect of food. As a result your body requires and demands more calories to be used in digesting protein than it does for carbohydrates and fat. Protein requires almost 4 times the amount of calories for digestion as does carbohydrates or fat. This means that if you eat 100 calories worth of protein it will cost your body almost 27 calories to digest and utilize for a net calorie consumption of roughly 75 calories. Carbohydrates and fat only require 4-7 calories to digest 100 calories of carbs or fat. This is another way to speed up your metabolism and burn more calories throughout the day. When you add up the number of times you eat lean protein throughout the day and the quantity you will be fueling that skinny mini metabolism.


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## DeadlyCoobra (Oct 16, 2011)

so your saying there would be no difference in weight loss between 2 identical people in a calorie deficit if one got his carbs from a complex source like brown rice and his fats from oils and nuts and the other got his carbs from a simple source like white bread and his fats from worse sources or pizza e.t.c. I don't think when your lying in bed at the end of the day your body tots up the calories and says oh an overall deficit today so we will burn fat, its dynamic and will react differently to whatever you put in it. Im gonna believe pros on this one i just cant get my head around eating sh*t and still losing weight as effectively as someone eating clean especially when it comes to holding muscle aswell.


----------



## MXD (Jan 23, 2008)

baggsy said:


> You should have asked them what cycles they run instead


I asked centopani and while he didn't talk specifically he did talk about having more time off in future.


----------



## essexboy (Sep 7, 2008)

gymgym said:


> Wrong. It's all about the quality of the calories u ingest.
> 
> *Proteins* (4calories per gram): regardless of some saying otherwise, u will not put on fat using too much proteins unless it is to some great extent.
> 
> ...


Have you any research papers, from a legitimate source to substanciate these claims, or are you referencing some pseudo science from an opinion?

There is no such thing as "trash calories" A calorie is a measurement of energy/heat.Its source is not relavent.


----------



## essexboy (Sep 7, 2008)

Thunderstruck said:


> Just to add that it was excellent to hear how her came about his HIT training through chats and sessions with Mike Mentzer i think he said. And why it works so well.
> 
> He said the 2 sets to failure that he does and train people with are enough to stimulate the muscle to break down enough to grow back bigger and stronger yet doing more sets than that will not give the muscle extra stimulus to grow, it just puts extra stress on the bodys system and makes recovery alot longer.
> 
> So good to hear things like this from the horses mouth and not just through 'i heard he does this or that'.


This advice is not new.Arthur Jones discovered the correlation between intensity and growth in the sixties.Mentzer adapted, and added his own slant in the seventies.Unfortunately most lifters fail to understand the concepts, even when a popular Bodybuilder, such as Mentzer, and later Yates espouse its effectiveness.


----------



## Thunderstruck (Sep 20, 2010)

essexboy said:


> This advice is not new.Arthur Jones discovered the correlation between intensity and growth in the sixties.Mentzer adapted, and added his own slant in the seventies.Unfortunately most lifters fail to understand the concepts, even when a popular Bodybuilder, such as Mentzer, and later Yates espouse its effectiveness.


Yeah not new but like a say just seems extra motivating hearing first hand from someone like yates......ok i admit it i got a dude crush ok!!!!


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## Thunderstruck (Sep 20, 2010)

This is what i felt like doing when i met Dorian......


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

That's a great question ask both Yates and Kai, there answer is no surprise you have so many on the forums say things like "a calorie is a calories" or"it doesn't matter where the calls come from" type answer yet these guys don't seem to either post there own picture up.......

Two things I have learnt in this game..

1 - no one reacts the same as another

2 - to achieve what you want be that building muscle or losing fat it is never as simple as "just eat this or that"


----------



## Thunderstruck (Sep 20, 2010)

Were you there Paul? If so where as i would have loved to have met you.


----------



## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

Thunderstruck said:


> Were you there Paul? If so where as i would have loved to have met you.


No mate this weekend is the only one in the next 5 I am at so not judging or competing so a weekend with the family, Tom Blackman went to the Phil Heath seminar on Friday and said they guy was very knowledgable and came across very well


----------



## Thunderstruck (Sep 20, 2010)

Yeah he was very confident with speaking in front of people and was quite funny too. I was like a little kid sitting there gawping in awe, bit sad really haha.

Branch Warren is one mean looking dude, sounds just like stone cold steve austin, not that ive ever watched wrestling of course.


----------



## gummyp (Aug 16, 2011)

Lyle McDonald has an article on the energy balance equation

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/the-energy-balance-equation.html


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

A calorie is a calorie.

It's not as simple as a calorie is a calorie.

What do both of the above statements have in common? They are both true.

What I mean, in simple terms, is different ratios of nutrients can (and will) influence the way you store/utilise excess calories, and which tissues you catabolise first in a kcal deficit (and an individual personal set of gene polymorphisms and activity levels alter the equation further)... but once these differences are accounted for in the maths, the remainder of the weight loss or weight gain equation is one hundred percent governed by energy balance (calories in vs calories out).


----------



## 36-26 (Jun 30, 2009)

Dtlv74 said:


> A calorie is a calorie.
> 
> It's not as simple as a calorie is a calorie.
> 
> ...


That is what I was trying to say but you put it so much better lol


----------



## Gorgeous_George (Apr 22, 2012)

well i guess i should follow Dorians training routine and diet then, everyones diffrent


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## gymgym (Mar 20, 2012)

gummyp said:


> Protein blunts the oxidation of fat so yes you can get fat *from too much protein*.


Yes in great excess u will but only in great excess as u can still maintain a positive balance anywhere between 1gram to 1.5gram of protein per pound of body.



essexboy said:


> Have you any research papers, from a legitimate source to substanciate these claims, or are you referencing some pseudo science from an opinion?
> 
> There is no such thing as "trash calories" A calorie is a measurement of energy/heat.Its source is not relavent.


*How old are u ?*

How long have u been training for ?

How many paid clients have u trained in ur lifetime ?

How long have u been certified and how many years of experience do u have behind ur fitness certification(s) ?

I am in the position to say that I know from my learning experiences over the last 22 years as I've started fitness at age 16 and I am 38.. I had made a living from fitness for now well over 12 years.. None of my clients ever went back into fat bodies. Those are not "pseudo science" or anything else, those are called *facts*. Odds are that because of my background, I know a lot more than u do and I have applied it in real life on me and to my clients.

It would be fruitless in keeping on challenging me as ur background is likely much poorer than mine when it comes to fitness life experiences.

Point made.


----------



## C.Hill (Nov 21, 2010)

gymgym said:


> Yes in great excess u will but only in great excess as u can still maintain a positive balance anywhere between 1gram to 1.5gram of protein per pound of body.
> 
> *How old are u ?*
> 
> ...


The real dslondon is back lol


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## gymgym (Mar 20, 2012)

C.Hill said:


> The real dslondon is back lol


Always been around


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## C.Hill (Nov 21, 2010)

gymgym said:


> Always been around


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

gymgym said:


> Yes in great excess u will but only in great excess as u can still maintain a positive balance anywhere between 1gram to 1.5gram of protein per pound of body.
> 
> *How old are u ?*
> 
> ...


Why end it with "Point made" ?? The above is your opinion based on your 22yr it is not fact as you put it......

Guys lets not start a tit for tat war here at the end of the day the guys that throw study after study around normally look like sh1t any way.....why is that? It's because they rely to much on studies and not real world experiences ......I have prepped a lot of people over the years and if things where as simple as a calorie is a calorie etc then they would of all ended up shredded and they did not........you start with a plan and adjust to the individual it's like when guys say "I don't understand it, I am eating xxxx amount of calories but not losing weight but my mate is what should I do?" simple drop calories or stop counting haribo as your carb source.......


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## gummyp (Aug 16, 2011)

gymgym said:


> Always been around


Yeah he tried to sell me cell mass earlier 

EDIT: damn you Paul. Now I have a craving for Haribo


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## gymgym (Mar 20, 2012)

Pscarb said:


> Why end it with "Point made" ?? The above is your opinion based on your 22yr it is not fact as you put it......
> 
> Guys lets not start a tit for tat war here at the end of the day the guys that throw study after study around normally look like sh1t any way.....why is that? It's because they rely to much on studies and not real world experiences ......I have prepped a lot of people over the years and if things where as simple as a calorie is a calorie etc then they would of all ended up shredded and they did not........you start with a plan and adjust to the individual it's like when guys say "I don't understand it, I am eating xxxx amount of calories but not losing weight but my mate is what should I do?" simple drop calories or stop counting haribo as your carb source.......


Well spoken.



gummyp said:


> Yeah he tried to sell me cell mass earlier
> 
> EDIT: damn you Paul. Now I have a craving for Haribo


lmao! Am only on Syntha 6 :whistling:


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## lxm (Jul 26, 2011)

its all about the fish and ricecakes buddy.

thats whereyou are going wrong.


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## BlitzAcez (Mar 6, 2008)

lxm said:


> its all about the fish and ricecakes buddy.
> 
> thats whereyou are going wrong.


If you added some fat to that diet would it really be all that bad?? Tablespoon of peanut butter in morning + fish and ricecakes all day in cal deficient. Wouldn't that actually work really well?

Fish for protien, ricecakes so you don't die and have some energy to play with and then just fat for whatever that is for I've forgot.


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## Markyboy81 (Jan 27, 2012)

I've learnt a lot from this thread and it's always good to get different opinions.

What annoys me are those fitness trainers who proclaim to know it all and will not accept that there might be another way of achieving the same goal.

I have no doubt that a high protein diet will work well for losing fat and maintaining muscle, but I enjoy my food and don't particularly want to follow that type of diet. I was wondering if I could still lose fat and keep muscle simply by reducing calorific intake. There is a lot information out there to say it is possible, and I've been getting results.

Maybe this won't work for everyone but it's an option if you don't want to eat that much protein


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## essexboy (Sep 7, 2008)

gymgym said:


> Yes in great excess u will but only in great excess as u can still maintain a positive balance anywhere between 1gram to 1.5gram of protein per pound of body.
> 
> *How old are u ?*
> 
> ...


Im 48. Have lifted weights for 30 plus years.What relavence is that? i dont care what you have done, how many people have taken your advice, or what colour underwear you choose.Its irelavant.You think that by gaining some questionable piece of paper it entitles you to change the laws of science?

You have made no point you simply made a statement.I could tell you I was mr biglumpytoughc.unt of 1998.It means nothing without some evidence. I could continue to engage you,and yet again ask for some validation of your remarks.

You have not been forthcoming so choose a predictable Ad Homien response.


----------



## gymgym (Mar 20, 2012)

essexboy said:


> Im 48. Have lifted weights for 30 plus years.What relavence is that? i dont care what you have done, how many people have taken your advice, or what colour underwear you choose*.Its irelavant.You think that by gaining some questionable piece of paper it entitles you to change the laws of science?*
> 
> You have made no point you simply made a statement.I could tell you I was mr biglumpytoughc.unt of 1998.It means nothing without some evidence. I could continue to engage you,and yet again ask for some validation of your remarks.
> 
> You have not been forthcoming so choose a predictable Ad Homien response.


Look u are so wrong so let's leave it at this. Night.


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## Markyboy81 (Jan 27, 2012)

gymgym said:


> Look u are so wrong so let's leave it at this. Night.


Wow you really are a great debater (or something similar sounding)


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## gymgym (Mar 20, 2012)

Markyboy81 said:


> Wow you really are a great debater (or something similar sounding)


I explained myself earlier. No point into debating any further really.


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## Markyboy81 (Jan 27, 2012)

You're right, no point when you've got nothing with which to back up your responses


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## gymgym (Mar 20, 2012)

Markyboy81 said:


> You're right, no point when you've got nothing with which to back up your responses


lol Joker. Read my previous posts and u will see that I explained myself royally on the matter. Go back a page or two and see for urself instead of being a smart @rse.


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## essexboy (Sep 7, 2008)

gymgym said:


> Look u are so wrong so let's leave it at this. Night.


Is this where Im supposed to say point made?


----------



## Markyboy81 (Jan 27, 2012)

If by royally explaining you mean arrogantly stating how long you have been a fitness trainer, how many clients you have told not to eat pizza all day etc then yeah, ok


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## gymgym (Mar 20, 2012)

essexboy said:


> Is this where Im supposed to say point made?


Look no matter what any mods say about this or anyone else, to me u are dead wrong and it wont change my mind lol sooo hey it sounds like an endless debat with someone who's older and obviousy wiser than me and who's been an athlete all his life huh ??


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## gymgym (Mar 20, 2012)

Markyboy81 said:


> If by royally explaining you mean arrogantly stating how long you have been a fitness trainer, how many clients you have told not to eat pizza all day etc then yeah, ok


Exactly. Yes and arrogant in ur face if I wish to be yes. Also.


----------



## Markyboy81 (Jan 27, 2012)

Not really a debate as you won't even consider any other view. You just constantly say that you're right.

Point not made


----------



## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

Chill guys, please keep it on topic and not personal.


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## gymgym (Mar 20, 2012)

Dtlv74 said:


> Chill guys, please keep it on topic and not personal.


All right tell them to get off my @rse then. I got enough.


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## Thunderstruck (Sep 20, 2010)

And here goes another thread the same way they always do 

At least we got a few pages of good debates from different points of view.


----------



## Markyboy81 (Jan 27, 2012)

Apologies for daring to question the expert. Will just accept everything as gospel from now on


----------



## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

It applies to everyone. Some potentially good debate, interesting opinions and info here in this thread, and it is a topic which I think is often very confused in most peoples minds so this thread could help a few of those reading... would be a shame for the thread to become simply an argument about the way people perceive each others attitudes and style of posting.


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

Markyboy81 said:


> Apologies for daring to question the expert. Will just accept everything as gospel from now on


I didn't say don't play, I just said play nice 

Keep posting, good topic and some good points made already.


----------



## Markyboy81 (Jan 27, 2012)

Agreed, this type of thread always creates controversy. My only objective was only to point out that I'd found information challenging the concept of keeping protein high when cutting, and wanted to share it with others who might not like the idea of eating loads of protein.


----------



## Thunderstruck (Sep 20, 2010)

yeah you losers 

its a shame i didnt get to chat in more detail to them about it so i can confirm more about what their views were as its obviousley a topic alot of people think they know about but for people to say that just coz theyre pro doesnt mean they know what they talking about is correct??............................c'mooooooooooooooooooooon really!!!??

The only way i am going to be able to prove it as correcti s by acheiving good results from the higher protein lower carb way which ive had good short term results from before, ive NEVER had good results of fat loss from a diet that includes mostly carbs.

BUT

im sure other may have, i know for a fact it could also be down to the fact i LOVE carby foods and prob have too many of them which is another debate entirely, should a carby person use them in their diet if they know they cant control their intake, i would have to say no even if others feel the body NEEDS carbs to function properly.

Do i think i could lose FAT eating a junky style diet -fook nooooo!! look at business men who hardly ever have time to eat and just eat summat stodgey as their only meal of the day, surely they arent going over their maintenance in one meal yet their storing fat, surely they would store fat if it was just a big chicken they ate each day?


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

One problem in identifying how food 'types' lead to obesity or fat gain is that the people who are generally fat also don't exercise, and exercise alone has a fairly potent effect on how the body handles nutrients, especially carbs. Most diet studies don't factor this, so the subjective experience of bodybuilders/athletes is very useful I think.

There are also now dozens of genes identified which are linked to how the body regulates energy balance and how it responds to differing nutrients, and each of these genes has a range of polymorphisms spread throughout the population... this means that although general rules for nutrition remain the same for everyone there is also a significant degree of inter-individual variability when it comes to the exact efficiency with which each person handles, glucose, fructose, various fatty and amino acids etc.... the point being that ultimately a person has to experiment with diet for themselves (or with guidance from someone who knows what they're doing) to find the optimum way of eating for them.


----------



## Thunderstruck (Sep 20, 2010)

its certainly a very interesting subject which is why i wanted to ask them as it was reletively quiet at the time but soon had crowds around so could carry on chatting.

Im also interested in why people store fat in different areas, for example i hold a huge % of my BF on my chest and abs, noticebly so, my back, shoulders and legs look like theyre from a different person :cursing:


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## B.I.G (Jun 23, 2011)

It is still quite down to cals in vs out however surely everyone knows why high gi carbs are a no go because of insulin spikes?

Also it's very hard to go far over you're recommended calories if you eat natural foods and low gi carbs?


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## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

Arrrrggghhhh! The level of stupid in this thread makes my head hurt!

Let's start here:



David2012 said:


> explain the study i said about rats then ?
> 
> why did the rats placed on a calorie controlled diet get just as obese as the ones that could eat as much as they wanted ?
> 
> ...


1. We are not rats. Any rat study has limited applicability to humans, but can give us an idea of how we might expect our body to react.

2. It's fundamentally impossible to gain weight if you're not in a positive calorie / energy balance. You will lose weight if in a calorie / energy deficit. The % of what tissue you gain or lose will depend on your macronutrient make up of said diet, and to a degree your training.

3. People's metabolisms differ. Some thin people will eat more than other yet not gain weight, others might not eat much anyway despite their protests about how much they try to.

4. If it were to do solely with hormones, how come when studied in a clinical setting (metabolic ward where activity and food are regulated) people lost weight just fine when only fed 1000cals of pure fat or pure carbs? Notice here I said weight not fat, as obviously a diet of such make up would result in some lean mass loss.


----------



## h901 (Jul 4, 2010)

Gymgym is acting as if he's ronnie coleman.

No need to get personal with the dude. The point of the thread is for people to share their opinions.

End of the day different foods work for different people.


----------



## Thunderstruck (Sep 20, 2010)

bayman said:


> Arrrrggghhhh! The level of stupid in this thread makes my head hurt!
> 
> Let's start here:
> 
> ...


dude we are on page 8 of talking about calories......WHERE YA BEEEEEEEN!!!


----------



## Thunderstruck (Sep 20, 2010)

bayman said:


> Arrrrggghhhh! The level of stupid in this thread makes my head hurt!
> 
> Let's start here:
> 
> ...


Did it state how much of the weight loss was from body fat at all?


----------



## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

At the end of the day. Losing fat is a simple as this:

1. Get enough protein to maintain lean mass

2. Create a calorie / energy deficit. Either via diet, or diet and exercise.

It has nothing to do with hormones per say, although a diet which fulfils the above criteria will also create a favourable hormonal environment for burning fat regardless. There are of course some other key factors: training, getting enough EFA's etc etc

I'll continue to believe this until somebody can show me otherwise via controlled studies, or by rationally explaining it (not what we've had here).


----------



## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

Thunderstruck said:


> Did it state how much of the weight loss was from body fat at all?


You'd be surprised to hear it was mostly fat, even though the diets in the study were protein deficient. It is the preferred energy store of the body after all (body fat that is). Let me see if I can dig the studies out.


----------



## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

Thunderstruck said:


> dude we are on page 8 of talking about calories......WHERE YA BEEEEEEEN!!!


LOL, the Bodypower expo!


----------



## Thunderstruck (Sep 20, 2010)

bayman said:


> At the end of the day. Losing fat is a simple as this:
> 
> 1. Get enough protein to maintain lean mass
> 
> ...


So the lower carb idea is basically becasue it would mean more protein to....

1) maintain lean muscle.

2) help recovery and growth.

3) feel fuller for longer (so less calories would be consumed anyway)

4) the little effect on insulin means less hunger and better fat usage?

It is, as with everything, the whole shibang and not just one or the other and certainly not as straight nor at the same time as complicated as some make out.


----------



## Thunderstruck (Sep 20, 2010)

bayman said:


> LOL, the Bodypower expo!


Dont get clever with me skinny


----------



## Thunderstruck (Sep 20, 2010)

bayman said:


> You'd be surprised to hear it was mostly fat, even though the diets in the study were protein deficient. It is the preferred energy store of the body after all (body fat that is). Let me see if I can dig the studies out.


another question then, your gonna wish you hadnt piped up now, how come people say that bodyfat is there for the bodys reserves incase of illness etc and so it will hold onto it until it really has to let go?


----------



## Kimball (Feb 26, 2012)

Thunderstruck said:


> And here goes another thread the same way they always do
> 
> At least we got a few pages of good debates from different points of view.


Why does this keep happening, it's damned frustrating!

Also I find really strange is the common statement that this game is 70% or so diet, you get the chance to ask 2 demi-gods of the sport some questions and shouldn't discuss diet with them.

So wtf should you discuss then! It's exactly what I discussed with the 3 people who impressed me most! At 3 different times.


----------



## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

bayman said:


> At the end of the day. Losing fat is a simple as this:
> 
> 1. Get enough protein to maintain lean mass
> 
> ...


Finally a post we agree on


----------



## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

Thunderstruck said:


> So the lower carb idea is basically becasue it would mean more protein to....
> 
> 1) maintain lean muscle.
> 
> ...


Exactly.

Although, re: point 4) - Proteins in themselves are pretty insulinogenic, some trigger a larger insulin response than a similar amount of carbs. Most people when constructing arguments on this subject kindly miss this point, especially the low carb fans.

Insulin (amongst other roles) actually helps your body know when it's full, it's NOT just a storage hormone. I highly recommend people read this little series on it:

Insulin: An undeserved bad reputation.


----------



## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

Thunderstruck said:


> another question then, your gonna wish you hadnt piped up now, how come people say that bodyfat is there for the bodys reserves incase of illness etc and so it will hold onto it until it really has to let go?


Becasue most people don't understand how the body works. It's an incredibly complex system, so even if you have a basic understanding of it you know probably more than 99% of most people on the street.

The media and internet is full of misinformation.

If you're getting enough protein, training and under your calorie maintenance, you will lose fat. Being ill really isn't an applicable comparision to a gym rat or bodybuilder trying to get in shape.


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## Thunderstruck (Sep 20, 2010)

Bayman was this like your reaction when you read this thread???


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## gymgym (Mar 20, 2012)

bayman said:


> At the end of the day. Losing fat is a simple as this:
> 
> 1. Get enough protein to maintain lean mass
> 
> ...


Very well said.

*Ps*, my only desagreement was that I dont believe u can have a fab body eating pizzas versus clean diet. This is the only thing that boiled my blood when people trying to prove otherwise.

Other than that all is clear like.. water


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## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

Thunderstruck said:


> Bayman was this like your reaction when you read this thread???


Pretty much mate, yes. LOL.

Somebody else touched upon it already in here, but you would be surprised to actually know how little pro bodybuilders understand in relation to how their diet actually works. To be fair, they don't need to understand it, they just need to know what does work, and stick to it!


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## Thunderstruck (Sep 20, 2010)

One guy in the audience asked Dorian yates what he thinks of myostatins (i think it was that) and his reply was dont know dont care, dont need to know. :lol:


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## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

gymgym said:


> Very well said.
> 
> *Ps*, my only desagreement was that I dont believe u can have a fab body eating pizzas versus clean diet. This is the only thing that boiled my blood when people trying to prove otherwise.
> 
> Other than that all is clear like.. water


People seem to twist the IIFYM argument (If it fits your macros), this is the case with the pizza debate. I just don't think people understand IIFYM.

So, if you were say dieting to lose fat for instance. Dieter a) and dieter B) had both gotten in 1500kcal worth of their 2000kcal diet for the day (enough for both to be under maintenance cals for this example).

Both dieter a) and dieter B) had got enough protein to maintain their level of lean mass, and enough EFA's etc.

Dieter a) chooses to allot his final 500kcal of the day to some sweet potato (he's a clean eating bro)

Dieter B) chooses to allot his final 500kcal to some pizza. (he's a IIFYM crazy boy)

Both I can assure you would still lose fat, probably at a nigh on identical rate, even if dieter B) repeated this practice day after day. He might be a bit saner for the experience mind, as he understands to don't have to eat 100% clean to see the same results.

This is IIFYM. Obviously the world has extremist people though, and others will twist IIFYM to think they can get lean on ICe Cream and Whey Protein (You could in theory, I'd challenge anyone to stick to such a diet though.)


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## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

Thunderstruck said:


> One guy in the audience asked Dorian yates what he thinks of myostatins (i think it was that) and his reply was dont know dont care, dont need to know. :lol:


I just wish they'd be more candid about their gear use. But that's never going to happen.


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## biglbs (Jan 26, 2012)

I mentioned a friend of mine on another thread who was at top level back in the day,even when cutting he had a cream cake before training,i tried it at the time and the workout was amazing,by the end your blood crashed,ready for cardio,to finish it off,then Gh time,it worked well for him.He also used slin during this phase for amino blood clearence,though i do not understand the science to it?

Perhaps there are many routes to the same goal,however the same basic ground rules must apply.


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## essexboy (Sep 7, 2008)

gymgym said:


> Very well said.
> 
> *Ps*, my only desagreement was that I dont believe u can have a fab body eating pizzas versus clean diet. This is the only thing that boiled my blood when people trying to prove otherwise.
> 
> Other than that all is clear like.. water


After being put through a workout by Arthur Jones, Sergio Olivia could be found eating pizza and drinking coke,in his favourite resturant.This was his preperation for the 1968(date maybe wrong) Mr Universe.That was a quote from Ellington Darden, head of research at Nautilus Sprorts, Medical Industries.Darden continued, that Sergios diet, fufilled the two major ingredients required for muscular growth.Calories and water.


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## gymgym (Mar 20, 2012)

@ bayman: Interesting theory there but wouldnt try it tho regardless thumbs up for explaining clearly ur view on it.


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## gymgym (Mar 20, 2012)

essexboy said:


> After being put through a workout by Arthur Jones, Sergio Olivia could be found eating pizza and drinking coke,in his favourite resturant.This was his preperation for the 1968(date maybe wrong) Mr Universe.That was a quote from Ellington Darden, head of research at Nautilus Sprorts, Medical Industries.Darden continued, that Sergios diet, fufilled the two major ingredients required for muscular growth.Calories and water.


Full agree with u there as much also Arnold did the same pizza wise before competing.


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

For me IIFYM falls apart when taken to ultimate extremes, and not even talking about junk vs clean food.

For example, if we take the two twins that bayman has introduced (bayman - btw, are they female, attractive? since this is for examples sake I'm making them so  ), and both of them each day eat 50g of fat - if twin A ate a mix of PUFA's (omega 3/6 balanced), MUFA's and SFA's, and twin B ate nothing but Omega 6 PUFA's or just SFA's then there would be some definite differences between them both expressed in immunity, inflammation, glucose sensitivity, lipoprotein levels etc etc

Likewise, if each twin required 150g of protein per day and one ate a mix of proteins from food and one only slugged shakes of leucine (and thus obtained only one essential amino acid), again, the health of each twin would be very different even though the macros would be identical.

I know both of the examples above are unrealistic, but the point is is that IIFWYM only applies when non extreme and sensible. A little junk is absolutely fine for most people most of the time... is only when stepping into the micro management of physique such as the final few days before a contest or when at very low bodyfat levels that it generally pays best to cut it all out (IMO).


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## essexboy (Sep 7, 2008)

biglbs said:


> I mentioned a friend of mine on another thread who was at top level back in the day,even when cutting he had a cream cake before training,i tried it at the time and the workout was amazing,by the end your blood crashed,ready for cardio,to finish it off,then Gh time,it worked well for him.He also used slin during this phase for amino blood clearence,though i do not understand the science to it?
> 
> Perhaps there are many routes to the same goal,however the same basic ground rules must apply.


Theyre exists a picture of Mike Mentzer entering Golds gym, a few weeks prior to the 79 Olympia eating an ice cream.Mentzer, realised it was calories that led to fat loss, not a diet thats deficent in any major macro.He added, that it also served to have a pyschological effect on his competitors,who were perplexed at his bizzare choice of food two weeks prior to a competition.


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## 36-26 (Jun 30, 2009)

I think one of the problems with some (clueless)people is that they think IIFYM means if it fits your calories judging by the way they post and don't realise that its fit your macros so in other words it recommends getting the optimal amount of protein, carbs and fats


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## Mingster (Mar 25, 2011)

Dtlv74 said:


> For me IIFYM falls apart when taken to ultimate extremes, and not even talking about junk vs clean food.
> 
> For example, if we take the two twins that bayman has introduced (bayman - btw, are they female, attractive? since this is for examples sake I'm making them so  ), and both of them each day eat 50g of fat - if twin A ate a mix of PUFA's (omega 3/6 balanced), MUFA's and SFA's, and twin B ate nothing but Omega 6 PUFA's or just SFA's then there would be some definite differences between them both expressed in immunity, inflammation, glucose sensitivity, lipoprotein levels etc etc
> 
> ...


This is all perfectly true, and I pretty much remember agreeing well in advance with Baymans posts.

The fact of the matter is that the vast majority of IIFWYM diets used by people into lifting are not extreme and still manage to fulfil basic dietary needs ie protein etc.

I also said that pre-contest was another matter entirely.


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## Fat (Jan 2, 2010)

Thunderstruck said:


> So the lower carb idea is basically becasue it would mean more protein to....
> 
> 1) maintain lean muscle.
> 
> ...


Carbs are muscle sparing, insulin spikes is irrelevant to most of us if you're not taking insulin.


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## Wheyman (Sep 6, 2011)

whats a calorie? sounds like a load of scientific mumbo jumbo to me


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## Nostaw (Apr 8, 2012)

gymgym said:


> Very well said.
> 
> *Ps*, my only desagreement was that I dont believe u can have a fab body eating pizzas versus clean diet. This is the only thing that boiled my blood when people trying to prove otherwise.
> 
> Other than that all is clear like.. water


if you can fit pizza into your macros then yes, you can have a fab body and eat pizza.


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## gymgym (Mar 20, 2012)

Nostaw said:


> if you can fit pizza into your macros then yes, you can have a fab body and eat pizza.


Here we go again :laugh:

Yes and ur life expectancy will be reduced by what ? 10 or 15 years.. Why ? cose pizza is filled with bad fats, sodium and surely u know the consequences of eating pizza every day of ur life or even x 3 week compared to clean food yes ?


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

gymgym said:


> Here we go again :laugh:
> 
> Yes and ur life expectancy will be reduced by what ? 10 or 15 years.. Why ? cose pizza is filled with bad fats, sodium and surely u know the consequences of eating pizza every day of ur life or even x 3 week compared to clean food yes ?


Yeah that's the secondary aspect of nutrition that many bodybuilders forget about - the long term health implications of diet.

Most people seem to focus solely upon obvious physical changes like body composition, but forget that two diets might achieve very similar changes to things like fat loss, but that those diets might have very different effects upon long term health.

Pretty much all the problem issues like high cholesterol, blocked arteries, elevated bp, impaired insulin sensitivity are very slow to develop and are caused by long term dietary imbalances rather than caused by short term binging on junk.

IMO better to focus on diets that achieve both the desired physical goals and keep you healthy at the same time.


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## Markyboy81 (Jan 27, 2012)

gymgym said:


> Here we go again :laugh:
> 
> Yes and ur life expectancy will be reduced by what ? 10 or 15 years.. Why ? cose pizza is filled with bad fats, sodium and surely u know the consequences of eating pizza every day of ur life or even x 3 week compared to clean food yes ?


The thread isn't about how healthy it is, or how it will affect life expectancy. If you're going down that road I don't think anyone will disagree that it's extremely unhealthy for anybody to lose the amount of fat in preparation for a contest, no matter how they go about it.


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## Fat (Jan 2, 2010)

gymgym said:


> Here we go again :laugh:
> 
> Yes and ur life expectancy will be reduced by what ? 10 or 15 years.. Why ? cose pizza is filled with bad fats, sodium and surely u know the consequences of eating pizza every day of ur life or even x 3 week compared to clean food yes ?


Some people just care about the aesthetics, life is too short to stay away from nice food! moderation is the key 

I don't see the need to become anal about food choices if you don't compete.


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## gymgym (Mar 20, 2012)

Dtlv74 said:


> Yeah that's the secondary aspect of nutrition that many bodybuilders forget about - the long term health implications of diet.
> 
> Most people seem to focus solely upon obvious physical changes like body composition, but forget that two diets might achieve very similar changes to things like fat loss, but that those diets might have very different effects upon long term health.
> 
> ...


Yes! And this is why I will never agree on the "pizza diet" 'cose of its long term health damages.

Brillant point.


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## Markyboy81 (Jan 27, 2012)

gymgym said:


> Yes! And this is why I will never agree on the "pizza diet" 'cose of its long term health damages.
> 
> Brillant point.


I don't think anybody was advocating the pizza diet. It was just an example to highlight the fact that if you did live on pizza alone and were below your calorie maintenance, you would lose weight.


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## Malibu (May 13, 2010)

as the saying goes 'Get shredded or die tryin'


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## gymgym (Mar 20, 2012)

Markyboy81 said:


> I don't think anybody was advocating the pizza diet. It was just an example to highlight the fact that if you did live on pizza alone and were below your calorie maintenance, you would lose weight.


Agree tho since this is a fitness / BB forum I do think nutritional health is a massive part of it and shall be regarded and respected as such.. Therefore advocating eating pizzas is plain wrong.


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## Markyboy81 (Jan 27, 2012)

gymgym said:


> Agree tho since this is a fitness / BB forum I do think nutritional health is a massive part of it and shall be regarded and respected as such.. Therefore advocating eating pizzas is plain wrong.


Agreed that advocating eating only pizza would be wrong but having these types of food occasionally does no physical harm and stops people from getting bored of their 'clean' diets


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## Guest (May 21, 2012)

Markyboy81 said:


> I don't think anybody was advocating the pizza diet. It was just an example to highlight the fact that if you did live on pizza alone and were below your calorie maintenance, you would lose weight.


there's no point arguing with someone who thinks a pizza is going to knock 15 years off your lifespan (about 3 years more than being a smoker knocks off it lol)


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## Guest (May 21, 2012)

Dtlv74 said:


> Pretty much all the problem issues like high cholesterol, blocked arteries, elevated bp, impaired insulin sensitivity are very slow to develop and are caused by long term dietary imbalances rather than caused by short term binging on junk.
> 
> .


All these health markers were improved in that professor who ate nothing but twinkies.

It's more to do with over eating them, than eating them at all.


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## Markyboy81 (Jan 27, 2012)

I went to pizza express at the weekend. I'm lucky to be alive!


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## Guest (May 21, 2012)

Markyboy81 said:


> I went to pizza express at the weekend. I'm lucky to be alive!


Call the samaritans if you're that tempted to end it all


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## Markyboy81 (Jan 27, 2012)

If I ever feel the urge to do that I'll hit the pizza hut buffet. That should finish me off


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

FrankDangerMaus said:


> All these health markers were improved in that professor who ate nothing but twinkies.
> 
> It's more to do with over eating them, than eating them at all.


Yes, but i'm talking effects over ten-twenty years... most people who start to suffer those issues do so when they hit their forties after decades of eating like that, not after six months, a year or even two years.

Short term studies are not really applicable to long term speculation unless you also factor in age related hormonal changes and the cumulative effect of 'life' on things like cell oxidation and glycation as you age.

Agree though that the most important things is keeping good overall calorie balance long term.


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## Jux (Jul 23, 2008)

I don't see why people have to resort to very sat fat rich, high GI foods to bulk.

Olive oil, nut butter, avocados etc are calorifically dense so use them to up the calories. High sat/trans fats decrease phospholipid membrane fluidity which has a plethora of consequences in both short and long term.


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## gymgym (Mar 20, 2012)

Markyboy81 said:


> Agreed that advocating eating only pizza would be wrong but having these types of food occasionally does no physical harm and stops people from getting bored of their 'clean' diets


*Occasionally* yes it would do no harm as myself I eat junk just like I did yesterday.



FrankDangerMaus said:


> there's no point arguing with someone who thinks a pizza is going to knock 15 years off your lifespan (about 3 years more than being a smoker knocks off it lol)


Do u read the posts or just read the title thread and click on last page and post ur thoughts ?? Jesus.. Same issue as yesterday, some of u guys do not bother to read the previous posts! Then dont even post.


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## biglbs (Jan 26, 2012)

Hay before killing pizza off remember a real italian pizza on thin ground wholemeal base,with all fresh ingrediants and evoo,fresh herbs aint so bad FFs

Italy has a far lower heart desease rate than us!

Fookin pizza hut and co will kill ya after makin you fat and ill,no probs.


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## Thunderstruck (Sep 20, 2010)

im bored of my own thread now :lol:


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## biglbs (Jan 26, 2012)

Thunderstruck said:


> im bored of my own thread now :lol:


Have some reps,it was agood idea:beer:


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## Thunderstruck (Sep 20, 2010)

i dont even like pizza :crying:


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## biglbs (Jan 26, 2012)

Thunderstruck said:


> i dont even like pizza :crying:


I met Dorian when he came down to open a health/BB/ section in a chemist and to run a seminar,back in very early 90's,real nice guy,i spent a fair bit of time with him,i would say his knowledge was typical of a pro,but no more or less than that.He did have some clever guys in tow though.Met Bill Kaz' too,he is a clever guy in his own right,blew my mind,in the 30 mins i spent with him!


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## shinobi_85 (Feb 20, 2011)

lets all agree with dtlv and bayman,right guys???? no but srsly, they seem to know a thing or two!


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## Guest (May 21, 2012)

shinobi_85 said:


> lets all agree with dtlv and bayman,right guys???? no but srsly, they seem to know a thing or two!


I pretty much always agree with Bayman, i suspect he's a brain in a jar though, just studying nutrition 24/7


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## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

Alan Aragon's research review has much to answer for.


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## biglbs (Jan 26, 2012)

FrankDangerMaus said:


> I pretty much always agree with Bayman, i suspect he's a brain in a jar though, just studying nutrition 24/7


Bayman always writes the things i had forgot! :lol:


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## Nostaw (Apr 8, 2012)

gymgym said:


> Here we go again :laugh:
> 
> Yes and ur life expectancy will be reduced by what ? 10 or 15 years.. Why ? cose pizza is filled with bad fats, sodium and surely u know the consequences of eating pizza every day of ur life or even x 3 week compared to clean food yes ?


You lost the debate so you started talking about something completely irrelevant, cute.

Let's recap:



gymgym said:


> *I dont believe u can have a fab body eating pizzas versus clean diet.* This is the only thing that boiled my blood when people trying to prove otherwise.





Nostaw said:


> if you can fit pizza into your macros then yes, you can have a fab body and eat pizza.


and then you start talking about life expectancy, pretty sure i said someone can eat pizza regularly and have a fab body, not "people can eat pizza regularly and have a life expectancy just as long as someone who eats clean"

p.s. im not advocating it, im merely stating that it is completely possible to eat 'dirty' foods and still achieve a great physique and if someone chooses to do so then that is their decision, implying or saying that it isnt possible is just flat out wrong.


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## gymgym (Mar 20, 2012)

Nobody will change my mind as I will never believe it is possible to achieve a great physique eating pizzas every days. Neither me or the vaste majority of any fitness people worldwide would believe such a thing.

So u and others surely gotta be a minority believing in a "pizza diet" lol

:lol:


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## Markyboy81 (Jan 27, 2012)

Pizza is getting a bad rep! But surely it meets most of the nutritional requirements;

Protein, carbs, fat, vegetables, fruit?(Hawaiian)

So maybe a pizza a day is the way to go?

McDonald's on the other hand..


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## Thunderstruck (Sep 20, 2010)

WILL PEOPLE PLEASE STOP TALKING ABOUT ****ING PIZZA!!!!!! WHY WHY WHY IS EVERYONE GOING ON A BOUT SODDING PIZZA.


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## Markyboy81 (Jan 27, 2012)

What about calzone?


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## Fat (Jan 2, 2010)

http://www.whatsonningbo.com/news-7672-19yo-uk-girl-sophie-ray-on-pizza-diet-for-8-years-eats-nothing-else.html


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## mark22 (Jul 13, 2011)

She looks in tip top shape, point proved.


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## Thunderstruck (Sep 20, 2010)

Fat said:


> http://www.whatsonningbo.com/news-7672-19yo-uk-girl-sophie-ray-on-pizza-diet-for-8-years-eats-nothing-else.html


youre not as ugly as i thought you would be fat.


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## Thunderstruck (Sep 20, 2010)

mark22 said:


> She looks in tip top shape, point proved.


yeah but thats just her breakfast.


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## Fat (Jan 2, 2010)

Its fair to say she has 18 inch arms..


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## biglbs (Jan 26, 2012)

Markyboy81 said:


> Pizza is getting a bad rep! But surely it meets most of the nutritional requirements;
> 
> Protein, carbs, fat, vegetables, fruit?(Hawaiian)
> 
> ...


Pizza tastes good.

pork chops taste good,

bacon tastes good,

I do'nt eat anything that eats and roots in its own feaces

Dog on the other hand?


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## Nostaw (Apr 8, 2012)

gymgym said:


> Nobody will change my mind as I will never believe it is possible to achieve a great physique eating pizzas every days. Neither me or the vaste majority of any fitness people worldwide would believe such a thing.
> 
> So u and others surely gotta be a minority believing in a "pizza diet" lol
> 
> :lol:


Why would someone willingly be ignorant, bizarre.










pizza every day^

maybe you should read up about "if it fits your macros" dieting


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## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

Nice work Nostaw. Plenty more examples from where you've come from too.

Some of Berkhan's followers are absolutely shredded eating cheesecake etc.

What's you cals look like of interest? Cycle them or straight up deficit. Looking good!


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## Guest (May 23, 2012)

shredded as fawk


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## Ahal84 (Jun 2, 2010)

As stated by another poster here. Proper Italian pizza is very healthy and not this shet Pizza Hut or Dominos.


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## biglbs (Jan 26, 2012)

Nostaw said:


> Why would someone willingly be ignorant, bizarre.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Fantastic condition!

Is'a da ****a ha? repped


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## gymgym (Mar 20, 2012)

gymgym said:


> Here we go again :laugh:
> 
> Yes and ur life expectancy will be reduced by what ? 10 or 15 years.. Why ? cose *pizza is filled with bad fats, sodium and surely u know the consequences of eating pizza every day of ur life or even x 3 week compared to clean food yes ?*


Ignorant me ? lolol.. And u really think am more ignorant than u are by posting pics ? :whistling:



Dtlv74 said:


> Yeah that's the secondary aspect of nutrition that many bodybuilders forget about -* the long term health implications of diet.*
> 
> *
> *
> ...


And this is coming from a Mod.. 



gymgym said:


> Agree tho since this is a fitness / BB forum I do think nutritional health is a massive part of it and shall be regarded and respected as such.. *Therefore advocating eating pizzas is plain wrong*.


And I maintain this!



Nostaw said:


> Why would someone willingly be ignorant, bizarre.
> 
> pizza every day^
> 
> maybe you should read up about "if it fits your macros" dieting


Yeah right. Nice try tho..


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## biglbs (Jan 26, 2012)

gymgym said:


> Ignorant me ? lolol.. And u really think am more ignorant than u are by posting pics ? :whistling:
> 
> And this is coming from a Mod..
> 
> ...


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## Dead lee (Jul 4, 2010)

Ok, i may have started this lol, i count calories myself, i count almost everything i eat, and adjust to suit, and follow a 40/30/30 roughly, but imo if you can diet by eating crap foods all day good for you, for me it just leads to eating more crap food, when im on a diet and hungary the last thing i do is eat rubbish, once i start i could literally destroy a 5000 kcals in a sitting and still be hungary, so imo a 10 week diet aiming for 2 pounds a week is a long time to be tempting yourself eating high kcal carb/fat rich food.

And i didnt mention the p word.


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## Kimball (Feb 26, 2012)

I'm more like Finland after 5000 calories


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