# Cardio - your opinions please!



## T.F. (Aug 28, 2008)

Just wanted to check you folks opinion on daily cardio, the reason i'm asking is that I wouldn't say i have an inactive lifestyle, however i do have a very inactive job, i.e. i'm sat at a desk all day (mostly looking on UKM lol).

Anyway, i train Mon, Wed, Fri (legs, push, pull) and do 45mins a.m. cardio Tue, Thurs and some Sat mornings. Would this be enough or do you think, given the fact that most of my day is spent sat on my ass, i should do some cardio in the morning even just 30mins? Now i'm talking fat loss cardio here, nothing major, keeping the heart around 120-130bpm, slow and steady.

I'm about to start my first cycle and want to ensure everything is 100% as i go into it. I understand that i'll lose some bf as well as gaining muscle on cycle, however if i'm not active enough i don't want to risk gaining a lot of fat if this could be easily combatted with some cardio in the mornings.

Thanks,

Tim.


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## essexboy (Sep 7, 2008)

If gaining muscle is your priority, do not do any cardio.Period.


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## Joshua (Aug 21, 2008)

essexboy said:


> If gaining muscle is your priority, do not do any cardio.Period.


I disagree. IME a bit of cardio actually helped me when bulking. I believe that it comes down to keeping energy balance positive.

30min pre breakfast is good IMO.

J


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

I remember long ago I had my diet spot on and I was losing the required weight I wanted to (not aggressive), I added in cardio and lost too much weight.

I have dieted down using zero cardio and was in the best condition of my life, strictly by controlling my diet and using resistance training only.

I know alot of guys that suggest cardio for fat loss, it is more diet controlled than cardio.

Resistance training is a must to keep muscle.

I have read the most awesome article on why cardio is counterproductive to get into shape.

I will have to find it, but it is totally heavy comming from a doctors stance.


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## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

Cardio=Gay


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## YoungGun (Mar 30, 2008)

jw007 said:


> Cardio=Gay


 I think a pic is called for in this thread Joe.


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## liamhutch (Mar 25, 2008)

for me high intensity cardio is definitely what works best, such as skipping, sparring, rowing for long periods of time such as an hour. I was dieting 10 weeks before i realised this is what worked best for me.


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## essexboy (Sep 7, 2008)

hackskii said:


> I remember long ago I had my diet spot on and I was losing the required weight I wanted to (not aggressive), I added in cardio and lost too much weight.
> 
> I have dieted down using zero cardio and was in the best condition of my life, strictly by controlling my diet and using resistance training only.
> 
> ...


Exactly Scott. Cardio(whatever that means?) is not an efficient way to mobilise fat.If anyone "feels" (emotion) they require it, check how many calories it burns.You should be getting all the "cardio"from 20 rep squats.Your are performing them in your w/o arent you?


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## essexboy (Sep 7, 2008)

Joshua said:


> I disagree. IME a bit of cardio actually helped me when bulking. I believe that it comes down to keeping energy balance positive.
> 
> 30min pre breakfast is good IMO.
> 
> J


Josh. we all have limited recovery ability.Use it wisely to recover from muscle building, not recovering from aerobic exercise.Its not a requirement for strength training.The days following a hard we/o should be reserved for recovery, nothing else.


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## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

YoungGun said:


> I think a pic is called for in this thread Joe.


WEEMAN does CARDIO

I rest my case


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## Prodiver (Nov 14, 2008)

jw007 said:


> Cardio=Gay


Oh nooooo! Does that make me hetero!? mg: :laugh:


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## T.F. (Aug 28, 2008)

jw007 said:


> Cardio=Gay


I should have mentioned that your opinion was excluded from all feedback, oh cardio hating one


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## T.F. (Aug 28, 2008)

jw007 said:


> WEEMAN does CARDIO
> 
> I rest my case


But i'm glad you joined in cos that's bloody funny :laugh:


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## T.F. (Aug 28, 2008)

essexboy said:


> Exactly Scott. Cardio(whatever that means?) is not an efficient way to mobilise fat.If anyone "feels" (emotion) they require it, check how many calories it burns.You should be getting all the "cardio"from 20 rep squats.Your are performing them in your w/o arent you?


Yes, squatting on leg day, naturally.

Cardio, burning 575cals in 45mins last time i checked.


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## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

Prodiver said:


> Oh nooooo! Does that make me hetero!? mg: :laugh:


Dont know mate

You ever smashed pasty ever?????


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

jw007 said:


> WEEMAN does CARDIO
> 
> I rest my case


OMG, how could you do that? :lol:


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

T.F. said:


> Yes, squatting on leg day, naturally.
> 
> Cardio, burning 575cals in 45mins last time i checked.


Fat loss from resistance training can happen for up to 3 days, not to mention the hormonal output that helps things along.


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## Prodiver (Nov 14, 2008)

jw007 said:


> Dont know mate
> 
> You ever smashed pasty ever?????


Duh! I'm not one of those pansy minge-fearers.

Red-blooded bi during my 20s...

Then I found Shangri-La... :laugh:

Anyway, cardio sucks...


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## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

Prodiver said:


> Duh! I'm not one of those pansy minge-fearers.
> 
> Red-blooded bi during my 20s...
> 
> Then I found Shangri-La... :laugh:


Then your a FAKER

Fckin Hetro :cursing: :cursing: :cursing:

just pretending to [email protected] all the birds:cursing: :cursing:


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## Prodiver (Nov 14, 2008)

jw007 said:


> Then your a FAKER
> 
> Fckin Hetro :cursing: :cursing: :cursing:
> 
> just pretending to [email protected] all the birds:cursing: :cursing:


Arf arf! :laugh:


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## liamhutch (Mar 25, 2008)

the *very* best physiques have been made doing cardio


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## carly (Mar 8, 2008)

Cardio is not only good to keep you leaner and more conditioned but it also helps with muscle growth and strength. Mix it up sometimes do a pace that you can talk and sometimes interval or a run, always good to keep your body guessing and this way you stimulate different muscle groups and dont get bored


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## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

liamhutch said:


> the *very* best physiques have been made doing cardio


 *best physiques have been made *with heavy weights, food and drugs

Fat\muscle has been lost doing cardio :lol: :lol:


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## liamhutch (Mar 25, 2008)

jw007 said:


> *best physiques have been made *with heavy weights, food and drugs
> 
> Fat\muscle has been lost doing cardio :lol: :lol:


LOL never gonna convince you!

Bet you did cardio for your shows though :whistling:


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## Prodiver (Nov 14, 2008)

carly said:


> Cardio is not only good to keep you leaner and more conditioned but it also helps with muscle growth and strength. Mix it up sometimes do a pace that you can talk and sometimes interval or a run, always good to keep your body guessing and this way you stimulate different muscle groups *and dont get bored*


Hi! Carly! 

Problem is, cardio's sooooooo boring! :laugh:

If I lift heavy enough and raise my heart rate so I pant a lot, will that do? :wink:


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## LittleChris (Jan 17, 2009)

What about the health benefits from cardio?

Not to mention the fact it speeds up the metabolism allowing more effectve uptake of nutrients. Appetite increases are another plus.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

This is going to be controvercial but here goes...lol

The biggest mistake of the 1980s is finally over and done with&#8230; Jumping around for 45 minutes to an hour won't boost your lung capacity, it won't strengthen your heart - it won't even help you lose weight.

Even worse, aerobic training-the kind most doctors and even the federal government tout as the path to good health-can actually wreck your body. Do enough, and aerobics will make you sick, tired and old before your time.

I can't tell you how many times my patients have come to me thinking that aerobics and long-duration "cardio" is the best and only way to improve their heart and lungs. NOTHING could be further from the truth!

If you only exercise within your current aerobic limits, you do so without improving your aerobic capacity. In other words, you never push hard enough to stop to catch your breath. This kind of aerobic exercise trains your body for endurance and efficiency.

That sounds great, right?

But this kind of "logic" causes "shrinkage:" Smaller muscles, smaller heart and smaller lungs. What's worse, it wipes out your heart's and lung's reserve capacity.

Your reserve capacity is what your heart and lungs use to deal with stress.

Injuries or physical trauma, a shocking emotional blow, a particularly intense session in the bedroom with your partner-these all demand reserve energy.

Reserve capacity means your heart has the ability to pump more blood, faster in times of stress. Reserve capacity for your lungs allows them to deal with high exertion like lifting, carrying, running or going up stairs.

Without reserve capacity, you are much more likely to drop dead from a heart attack or pneumonia when faced with stress. No "reserve capacity" in your checking or savings account means bankruptcy. No "reserve capacity" in your heart and lungs means a fatal heart attack or succumbing to what should have been nothing more than bronchitis or "walking" pneumonia.

A few years ago, Harvard researchers published the Harvard Health Professionals Study. After studying over 7,000 people they found that the key to preventing heart disease is intensity - NOT long-duration exercise.

Those who followed the basics of my PACE® program - short bursts of intensity, followed by short periods of rest - dramatically lowered their risk of heart disease. But that's not all&#8230;

In another Harvard study, intensity turned out to be the key to longevity and reduced risk of death.

This study reinforces what I discovered 20 years ago: long-distance runners have a higher risk of sudden cardiac death than other athletes.

When I was in medical school, providing emergency care for marathon races, a young man collapsed just yards from our emergency aid station. His heart continued to violently race, as we put an oxygen mask over his blue lips. Another runner in his 20's made it to our station but had to kneel down to wait for emergency assistance. He was weak, dizzy and frightened - with a dangerously irregular heartbeat.

Later I came to call this pattern the "Jim Fixx Phenomenon," after the popular fitness guru of the 70's. Fixx claimed that the secret to heart health and long life was endurance running - up until he died of a heart attack - while running!

Now I know that the "new science" from the 1960s that promoted jogging was a big mistake. Long-duration aerobic training doesn't work. It isn't natural and your body knows it.

Long-duration exercise burns fat during your workout. Sound good, right? Guess again&#8230; This sends a message to your body that you need a reserve of fat available at all times - so the next time you exercise you'll have something to throw on the fire. This self-defeating cycle ensures that your body makes more fat every time you finish exercising.

That's why you may have such a hard time losing fat at the gym. Every time you burn fat during exercise, you body reacts by making more.


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## weeman (Sep 6, 2007)

jw007 said:


> WEEMAN does CARDIO
> 
> I rest my case


 :lol: :lol::lol:LMAO you fkr:lol: :lol: :lol:


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## weeman (Sep 6, 2007)

jw007 said:


> *best physiques have been made *with heavy weights, food and drugs
> 
> Fat\muscle has been lost doing cardio :lol: :lol:


yep have to agree with that,4 short weeks and much grammage of gear i looked like this.

(thanks joe for the pic whoring invite just waiting to happen x)


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## liamhutch (Mar 25, 2008)

hacks that post is all well and good but everyone that does cardio will tell you it does help them lose weight because it really does lol!


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## T.F. (Aug 28, 2008)

Fcuk it, i start my cycle in August, i'll do 3/4 weeks of cardio 5 times a week in the morning and see how i react, then hopefully after that the drugs will do the rest for me 

The amount of conflicting info out there in relation to this game is unreal :laugh:


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## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

LittleChris said:


> What about the health benefits from cardio?
> 
> Not to mention the fact it speeds up the metabolism allowing more effectve uptake of nutrients. Appetite increases are another plus.


Look

Lets get this straight...

That gay sh1t BBders call cardio is bollox..

60% treadmill to reach target heart rate for fat loss.. :whistling: :whistling: :lol: :lol:

Sure "proper cardio" ie sparring, cross country cycling or sprint interval training, even footy has real world benefit and gives a real cardiovasular and health benefit I 100% concur

Fat fcks putting no effort in stepping on a tread mill for 30mins....DO ME A FAVOUR


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## liamhutch (Mar 25, 2008)

jw007 said:


> Look
> 
> Lets get this straight...
> 
> ...


Ahhh so we are actually in the same ball park then. For my cardio i'll either do sparring, skipping or rowing (trying to beat last time) usually and this bennefits me greatly.


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## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

liamhutch said:


> Ahhh so we are actually in the same ball park then. For my cardio i'll either do sparring, skipping or rowing (trying to beat last time) usually and this bennefits me greatly.


yes mate, but thats what most fat fcks on here are not refering to when thay say "ohhh i did an hour cardio":lol: :lol: :lol:


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## All4n (May 30, 2008)

High intensity is the way to go as it's very good at

A. Boosting metabolism

B. Increasing insulin sensitivity

C. Increasing fitness

All important factors for gaining or dropping BF%. Does a much better job than low intensity cardio but can still have its place depending on the invidual and their cirumstances.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

liamhutch said:


> hacks that post is all well and good but everyone that does cardio will tell you it does help them lose weight because it really does lol!


Everyone is a broad brush stroke.

Based on body types, drugs, age, lifestyle, hormonal levles, work requriements, diet, sleep paterns, motivation, mental health, all play a factor.

For one to say cardio is best for fat loss is totally mistaken.

It may fit for those that it fits for, but in many cases, it does not.

I will be clear here in saying, if one has diet under control, cardio is secondary.

After all, lets look at this logically, if your stuffing your face got yourself into the overweight situation, then cardio wont get you out of it, but I bet my left nut, diet will.

Regardless of exercise.

If you dont fix the stuffing of your face, exercies is not the fix, stop stuffing your face is the fix.

This is so basic it isnt funny.

Think of it as a math equation.

Sorry for all the cardio buffs, but I have seen many try to burn on cardio what their weakness of diet wont let them do.


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## Irish Beast (Jun 16, 2009)

I do it now and again. Does that make me gay friendly?

I've only been doing it recently cos my BF is high but I could quite happily never do it again.


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## d4ead (Nov 3, 2008)

As the boards resident fat fuker i can honestly say i found no benefit to cardio at all. All i can say is that it made me miserable and bored on the days i had to do it.

I guess i did feel a little fitter.


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## liamhutch (Mar 25, 2008)

hackskii said:


> Everyone is a broad brush stroke.
> 
> Based on body types, drugs, age, lifestyle, hormonal levles, work requriements, diet, sleep paterns, motivation, mental health, all play a factor.
> 
> ...


I agree with what you are saying now, mostly. Before i started training i was slim but never lean and used to be into bike riding so would be exercising 5+ hours every day but my diet was terrible so i never got lean!

most people here will have a good or at least acceptable diet and so cardio will be of bennefit to them. The article you posted suggested cardio is of no benefit.

I do think 60% heart rate cardio or whatever it is, is rather pointless personally. The same health benefits are not there, not as many calories are being burned, its is boring and no muscle should be lost doing fast cardio if diet supports it.


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## SOUTHMAN (Sep 14, 2008)

I was on a keto diet and doing the low intensity cardio for long duration, lost weight for sure but felt like rubbish and couldnt function properly and for that matter spent alot of my free time bored on the bike!

I am now on a balanced diet eating carbs from low gi sources, Moderate protien (using carbs as my main energy source) and healthy fats. as little sugar as possible.

Im doing high intensity cardio but GPP style, often this involves using weights (farmers walks, kettlebell drills, bodyweight drills ect) and doing boxing, fast skipping and bouts of 1000 meters on the rower. I train has HARD as i can pushing myself to new levels be it quicker, heaver whetever getting out of breath for a short period.

In conclusion im in the best shape ive been in for a while and feel the fittest ive been, infact many have said my arms look bigger even though ive lost fat.

For me It all diet and maxiumum work in a short period.


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## LittleChris (Jan 17, 2009)

To be honest, if I could drive to the gym and back I wouldn't be doign any :lol:


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## Joshua (Aug 21, 2008)

> Sure "proper cardio" ie sparring, cross country cycling or sprint interval training, even footy has real world benefit and gives a real cardiovasular and health benefit I 100% concur
> 
> Fat fcks putting no effort in stepping on a tread mill for 30mins....DO ME A FAVOUR


One of the problems with high duration, low intencity (where intensity measured by heart rate) cardio is that whilst it may preferentially burn more fat compared to other fuels, the amount it burns, very strongly relates to the person's cardiovascular fitness. If a person is unfit, their work rate at their 50%VO2max maybe very low, therefore their energy expenditure they burn at that rate will be low, thus fat loss will be minimal. In this case, I believe that the unfit person would be better served by working at an exercise rate at or above their lactate threshold, to improve their cardiovascular fitness, so that when they do train at 50%VO2max they are shifting the lard.

I agree totally with your sentiments with obese people walking slowly on treadmills though. I have seen a few in my gym who crank the gradient up high, use a slow walking pace, whilst resting their bodyweight on the frame. These people would be better served in doing anything and everything to get their total energy expenditure up.



> *If you only exercise within your current aerobic limits, you do so without improving your aerobic capacit*y. In other words, you never push hard enough to stop to catch your breath.


Agreed.



> But this kind of "logic" causes "shrinkage:" Smaller muscles, smaller heart and smaller lungs. What's worse, it wipes out your heart's and lung's reserve capacity.


High duration cardio can lead to smaller skeletal muscle (fibre types), but I disagree with the rest of this. If you look at the amount of blood that trained rowers shift around their body per pump of the heart, it is enormous compared to the untrained person in the population. I have never seen any evidence that high duration cardio leads to smaller lungs.



> A few years ago, Harvard researchers published the Harvard Health Professionals Study. After studying over 7,000 people they found that the key to preventing heart disease is intensity - NOT long-duration exercise.


HIIT / Interval style training has a good track record of improving health including heart disease, and as I mentioned in another thread it has widespread metabolic effects (Insulin sensitivity). Interval work should be a part of healthy living IMHO.



> Later I came to call this pattern the "Jim Fixx Phenomenon," after the popular fitness guru of the 70's. Fixx claimed that the secret to heart health and long life was endurance running - up until he died of a heart attack - while running!


Jim Fixx led an unhealthy life prior to him taking up jogging from what I gather. I imagine that it was not the jogging that was responsible for his arteries furring up.

J


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## BigDom86 (Jul 27, 2008)

i just do 20mins light cardio twice a week. seems ok to me


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## recc (Apr 27, 2008)

could someone give an example for running that would be better for fat burning than steady cardio then?

I started doing morning cardio of a 45 min walk everyday but a lot of you now say this isnt a great idea.

I started cutting to lose the fat, do weights every other day and have my diet under control, so got these bases covered but want to increase the speed of fat loss. Want to get back on a bulk!


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## ManOnAMission (May 1, 2009)

recc said:


> could someone give an example for running that would be better for fat burning than steady cardio then?
> 
> I started doing morning cardio of a 45 min walk everyday but a lot of you now say this isnt a great idea.
> 
> I started cutting to lose the fat, do weights every other day and have my diet under control, so got these bases covered but want to increase the speed of fat loss. Want to get back on a bulk!


I have started doing HIIT, either on the treadmill or the running track, 3x20 minute sessions a week, and involves 5 minute light jogging, then I sprint for 45 seconds to 1 minute, then jog for 1 minute and repeat this cycle, and from what I have read, it does make more sense then doing long cardio sessions.

Years back when I used to be quite chubby, i done HIIT rope skipping and sprinting and lost a lot of weight, but that was over 10 years ago!


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## recc (Apr 27, 2008)

Pectoral said:


> I have started doing HIIT, either on the treadmill or the running track, 3x20 minute sessions a week, and involves 5 minute light jogging, then I sprint for 45 seconds to 1 minute, then jog for 1 minute and repeat this cycle, and from what I have read, it does make more sense then doing long cardio sessions.
> 
> Years back when I used to be quite chubby, i done HIIT rope skipping and sprinting and lost a lot of weight, but that was over 10 years ago!


thanks for that! would you say at 3 times a week is enough for cutting body fat? are you using it as part of a 'cut'?

Im going to try this anyway from next week onwards.


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## ManOnAMission (May 1, 2009)

recc said:


> thanks for that! would you say at 3 times a week is enough for cutting body fat? Im going to try this anyway from next week onwards.


 I would say 60 minutes a week of HIIT, combined with a weights routine and good diet is enough to cut body fat, I mean you could do 4x 15 minute sessions - all you can do is try and see what works.


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## WaRRioRz-DaNCe_ (Jul 7, 2009)

Right don't slaughter me for this, as its my 1st post  I've been gyming for almost a year now and i train with my friend. He says all sorts about cardio, that its good for your heart, burns fat and shows a better body definition etc. The thing is I'm worried if i start doing cardio with him, il start losing weight and go back to what i was a year ago, a skinny teenager.

I don't want to look massive like some of you guys, I just want to tone up. So what shall i do ? Go with my friends advice or not do cardio at all.

Thanks Jamie


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## ManOnAMission (May 1, 2009)

WaRRioRz-DaNCe_ said:


> He says all sorts about cardio, that its good for your heart, burns fat and shows a better body definition etc. The thing is I'm worried if i start doing cardio with him, il start losing weight and go back to what i was a year ago, a skinny teenager.


Cardio does burn fat

Cardio is good for your heart

Low bodyfat will give you a more defined looking body

So he is right on them points - just remember you can do cardio without losing muscle as long as your diet is right, make sure you take whey protein shake before you do cardio and limit your cardio sessions to around 30 minutes at most, as that is enough.


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## WaRRioRz-DaNCe_ (Jul 7, 2009)

Pectoral said:


> Cardio does burn fat
> 
> Cardio is good for your heart
> 
> ...


Cheers for the advice, just needed telling as you guys know what your on about. Yeah it is the low bodyfat mode we use and only do 20 mins after are weight training.

Is 4x a week to much ? not enough are just fine as it is ?


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## ManOnAMission (May 1, 2009)

If all your doing is 20 mins after weights, 4 times a week then you won't be losing muscle, plus cardio after weights is one of the best times to get your cardio done.

As for being too much or just fine, it depends on why your doing cardio, as if you want to lose bodyfat then yes cardio will burn calories but if your eating more calories then you burn then you won't be losing much bodyfat.

But if your doing cardio to give you health benefits and also improve your fitness, then 20 minutes 4 times a week is enough depending on the intensity level, I have started doing HIIT, high intensity interval training and I also mountain bike to the gym which is (10 miles total) and I have been putting on muscle, plus I feel fit.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Pectoral said:


> Cardio does burn fat
> 
> Cardio is good for your heart
> 
> ...


Cardio can burn muscle too, due to an elivated cortisol responce from over training.

At this point muscle is lost and fat deposit is promoted.

Why compromise recovery from resistance training to do cardio to burn fat that may or may not be burnt due to cardio?

When one overtrains the catabolic responce is cortisol.

When one does not overtrain, the responce is recovery.

Why in the hell would I compromise recovery at the risk of cardio?

Especially in light of the recouperation of resistance training that spares lean muscle mass adds muscle, where as cardio does not?

This is basic math, too much cortisol from excessive cardio is counter-productive to what we are doing which by the way is getting leaner due to diet.

Resistance training for muscle and strength.

Stretching for more range of motion and flexibility.

HIIT for heart health.

Relaxation for the mind, soul and body, to keep cortisol in check.

Trust me you dont want that one running rampid, and common sense for those that need it............lol

Things are so simple actually.

If you put alot of energy in cardio, and neglected resistance training, you would lose muscle.

If you put alot of energy in resistance training, you would keep and or maintain lean muscle mass, providing your reserves for recovery are not compromised from cardio, or from overtraining.


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## ManOnAMission (May 1, 2009)

hackskii, nice post as always (informative), if I have handed out any dodgy advice then tell me, as Im learning myself, but I was under the impression that if you do a weights routine, then cardio for say 20-30minutes, as long as your diet is good, and pwo is sufficient, then you won't be in any danger of burning muscle.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

I respect everyones posts mate, I dont know the sweet spot that works the best as for each person it probably works diffrently.

I would suggest that not only do you rotate your exercises that are cardio driven around, to hit other muscle groups, but also do it with more intensity.

I have read some stuff that would suggest that HIIT offers a better bang for the buck, in regards to fat loss from strictly a hormonal profile.

Also think of it like this, cardio burns fat only when you do it, resistance training can burn fat for up to 3 days due to the body rebuilding and recouperating.

When you sit and are on the couch watching TV, you are burning primarily fat.

Some guys that dont take in fats, or are on a low fat diet, or do not take any EFA's, then these guys or girls are actually in fat starvation mode.

The bodies responce?

Store fat....lol

If the diet is spot on, and you are using enough resistance training, I dont think you need cardio.

It can take hours to burn just one meal (cardio), and even that would be a small meal.

It isnt lack of cardio that put the fat on in the first place, it was more stuffing your face than anything else, I only see this as a problem of stuffing ones face.

I know ladies that do hours of cardio a day, yah they lost the weight, but only look like smaller fat persons of their prior selves.

Sadly women dont know that resistance training makes them smaller and guys bigger.


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## All4n (May 30, 2008)

Hacskii i think you are brandishing all amounts of cardio with the same brush here. You are confusing members by putting your points down to cardio as a whole. Your points apply to excessive cardio only. Moderate cardio can be beneficial. Aids fat loss, acts as a form of active recovery and can improve overall health. I agree with your points on excessive cardio but that does not apply to moderate amounts of cardio which you seem to have forgotten to mention.

GPP/HIIT give most "bang for buck" though for sure in regards to metabolic reactions and physcial benefits.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Ok, let me refine my answer to the question that asks: "Cardio - your opinions please!"

First of all, if you are doing cardio for fat loss or in lue of dieting, you are doing yourself no rewards, for fat loss.

If you are doing cardio to help you have more endurance then fine.

If you want to lose weight and most of that targeting fat loss, then cardio is not the answer.

Like in medicine where they treat the symptom and not the cause, cardio is the very same animal.

If you want to treat the cause, then dieting is the preferred method of fat loss.

There really shouldnt be any debate about the issue of cardio and fat loss, it nothing like most think.

I have seen this many times with people, the go balls to the walls with cardio, lose weight, but they look the very same but only a smaller version.

I have seen countless guys prep for contest and underfeed and over cardio and bang, loss of muscle occurs due to a catabolic environment, and some of these dudes looked awesome just before this catabolism took place.

If you are doing any sport that takes endurance or even stamina, then fine, do cardio, but if you want to lose fat then you are wasting your time and not focusing on the source of the problem.

No broad brush here, doing cardio is not necessary to get into contest ready condition if you know what you are doing, not necessary at all in fact.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

If you want to do cardio then I would suggest doing something like this: http://www.tmuscle.com/readArticle.do?id=1756065&cr=

Think of long distance runners compared to sprinters.

Sprinters have leaner more muscular bodies, long distance runners have low muscle mass and not all that low fat percentage either.

You would think that the long distance runner would be shreaded, they hardly ever are.

How about a post man, walking up to 10 miles a day plus, nice and steady slow rate that targets fat loss, you would think they are lean as well, well mine isnt, they look mousy and frail, the chick is rather dumpy if you ask me.

That stuff doesnt work, and certainly not worth the effort and time it takes with such little rewards and at the risk of muscle loss, this is unacceptable.

Tabats is another approach to get in fantastic shape and get the responce from growth homones.

Quote from ChefX:

bike for example...

sprint as ferking fast as you, like a postman chased by that rotwieler with rabies... for 20 seconds flat out... then rest aka walk if running, pedal backwards freewheeling if on the bike ect for 10 seconds exact, take very deep breaths, then again spring as hard as you can 20 seconds and again rest 10 seconds... do this until you crash or can't maintain that pace (usually between 6 and 8 reps totals if more than 10 you did not push near hard enough and if less than 6 you pushed to hard a level)

walk around hands on head, deep breaths mouth open and recover.

simple eh?

the thing is I suggest you start with something you can complete for 8 reps of those 20 second sprints at first and slowly very slowly work towards your max and when you hit that max zig zag, in other words raise it till you can't do 6 then lower it where you could do more than 8 but stop at 8, then again slowly raisae it till you can't do 6 and again lower it more than 8 and keep that zig zag going each time.... never more than 3 times a week and 2 times is best.

Does it burn fat? If done right, like a BLAST FURNACE!


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## Stork (Jun 21, 2008)

hey hackskii, would burpees or maybe dumbell deadlifts count for tabata intervals? or are they more of like strength training? I'm just kinda worried they'll interfere with my gains and slow me down rather than just burn fat.


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## Joshua (Aug 21, 2008)

Dumbell thruster or burpees are great for tabatas IMO. You don't need much weight on the DB thrusters, as if you do them right you should feel wiped out at the end.

Tabatas are a form of HIIT and work through a totally different mechanism to high duration, low intensity cardio.

J


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## All4n (May 30, 2008)

I've done tabata a few times it's an absolute killer. Tried bike and also squat. Think i had 2.5kg plates on?! Torture.

Hackski you are doing exactly the same thing again.



> I have seen this many times with people, the go balls to the walls with cardio, lose weight, but they look the very same but only a smaller version.
> 
> I have seen countless guys prep for contest and underfeed and over cardio and bang, loss of muscle occurs due to a catabolic environment, and some of these dudes looked awesome just before this catabolism took place.


That is excessive cardio! Do you not think it is possible to do moderate amounts of cardio? Your broad brush has appeared again. You're again talking about over doing the cardio and also undereating. I'm talking about moderate amounts of cardio. Not excessive 4 hour a day running trying to burn off those 2 pizzas you binged on the day before. There's a difference

Low intensity cardio yes does not burn as many cals as HIIT. It does not give you metabolic advanatges/benefits of HIIT. I'm not argueing that at all, i think HIIT is great for fat loss.

You mention cardio causes muscle loss, hampers recovery, raises cardio. Yeah for sure, if it's excessive. What about HIIT? That doesn't hamper recovery? It can. That doesn't raise cortisol? It can. Those two factors won't lead to muscle loss? It can.

Of course prodvide proper pre/post workout nutrition, don't over do it and all should be fine. But then i can say the same about 30 mins on the cross trainer every other morning or evening. Some extra cals burnt. Keeps a level of fitness. Acts as a form of active recovery. Has some metabolic benefits, albeit minor but there non the less.

IMO a mix of cardio is suitable for those that are not overly active during the day. Compare a office worker to a construction worker. Same cardio requirments? No. Same goes for someone with fast metabolism and someone with slow metabolism.

I completely agree that excessive cardio (especially combined with undereating) is detrimental and i agree HIIT is much more beneficial. But i do not agree that *MODERATE* cardio is completely a waste of time. It works when done in *moderation*.

Also i agree with long distance runners but again they run for what would be excessive amounts of time. Also is it high impact. Low impact/low intensity can give results. As long as your diet supports it and you do not over do it. You're basically going to the extreme every single time you try and make a point why? Look at it as someone doing sensible amounts of cardio along side weight training and HIIT. That does not spell automatic catabolism, stop looking at the extreme end of the spectrum to try and prove you are correct. As no one is arguing that the extreme has no negative impacts.


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## Stork (Jun 21, 2008)

Holy jebus, I just tried tabata intervals with jump squats (holding a 15kg plate either to my chest or just infront of chest and jumping onto my bench), I made it to 5 sets and I collapsed.. then I tried it with burpees to see if it was any easier, got to 5 sets again.

Never breathed so hard in my lfie, I feel like I'm going to throw up. Is that how it works for weight loss - are tabata workouts like a gateway to bulemia? Also since I'm on the topic, am I supposed to have like a post workout shake after doing them, or just carry on as normal and wait until my next meal?


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## Joshua (Aug 21, 2008)

One of the main ways in which the metabolic adaptations (AMP kinase) are kicked off is through a sudden energy drop in the cells. Although I have not seen any studies either way, their COULD be a slight benefit from holding off for a little bit after your tabatas before feeding. I would not feed before doing them either.

J


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## SOUTHMAN (Sep 14, 2008)

tabatas are gravy. I dont like the idea of cardio, most people dont like running so why do it? Why not do big compound movements in fast explosive combo rounds?

Heres one i did the other day repeat for 3 rounds

2o seconds bluers

20 seconds CnJ

20 seconds heavy bag work all out

20 rest

repeat 3 times, on the 3rd time have a 1 minute rest then:

pressups with dumbell row 20 secs

floor chest press with sit up 20 secs

heavy bag all out 20 secs

Rest 20 secs

repeat 3 times, on the 3rd time have a 1 minute rest then:

Burpees 20 seconds

pullups 20 seconds

20 seconds heavy bag

repeat 3


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## All4n (May 30, 2008)

Joshua said:


> One of the main ways in which the metabolic adaptations (AMP kinase) are kicked off is through a sudden energy drop in the cells. Although I have not seen any studies either way, their COULD be a slight benefit from holding off for a little bit after your tabatas before feeding. I would not feed before doing them either.
> 
> J


Interesting, how long would you wait before consumig the pwo shake? I guess you could also apply this to resistance training. To which, if i understand your point correctly, perhaps pwo low impact/low intensity cardio is not such a bad idea after all?

Also why would you not eat before hand? Besides the potential nausea? How long would you wait after eating to do tabata?


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

All4n said:


> I've done tabata a few times it's an absolute killer. Tried bike and also squat. Think i had 2.5kg plates on?! Torture.
> 
> Hackski you are doing exactly the same thing again.
> 
> ...


Ok, let me let you in on a little secret.

Cardio is totally not necessary for a bodybuilder to get into good condition or get below double digit bodyfat percentage.

If diet and resistance training are spot on, no need at all to do any cardio what so ever, to win a contest.

Our goal is to keep and maintain as much muscle as possible, cardio does nothing to add muscle or maintain it.

There.


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## All4n (May 30, 2008)

Yes i'm aware of said "secret" and came across a few competitors that have prepped without cardio. Although i would say by doing so you are making things easier i.e allowed more food. Being hungry all day isn't great. Choice of eating 1500 cals with no cardio or 2000 with cardio? I'd go with personally.

Yes one goal is to maintain as much muscle as possible, through which can be accomplished via diet. You seem to be forgetting the other goal...fat loss. Cardio does nothing for fat loss? I'm quite sure many would disagree. Cardio does not automatically = muscle loss. Unless of course you use extreme examples like long distance runners or a postman  . On the other hand you could apply examples that bodybuilders dieting down (that's not panic dieting) would use i.e low impact/low intensity keeping duration moderate.

Have you ever dieted down to single digit bodyfat hackskii? Genuine question, i have no idea.


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## driving iron 2 (Jun 5, 2009)

i dont do cardio i do sport and functional excercise..i dont **** around on treadmills or fake bikes or static steppers....not for me..it aint the real thing... i cycle to work and play footy and i dont do it too loose weight i do them things because i like that element of fitness and enjoy it and i like the buzz...you aint getting no buzz on a plastic conveyer belt staring at the sweaty **** in front of you:cursing:


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Here is a post from a trainer that is probably 5 years old from this site, read closely to what is being said, then get back with me on why you think it is so important to do cardio to get lean.

Remember we want to keep as much muscle as possible, your 1500 cal is far far way to low to keep muscle, and 2000 cals would be much closer, and probably still too low.

The more aggressive the diet is, the bigger chance of losing more muscle.

Leaner guys even more so will lose more muscle than fatter guys, it is unavoidable.

When guys are lean and they lose weight, even low amounts of weight, they WILL lose muscle, no getting around this, this is why they use gear, GH, slin, peptides, to try and keep the muscle they have from being eaten up.

This is why I say cardio is not necessary to lose weight, not for bodybuilding anyway.



BSF James said:


> Thats very true. Whenever someone comes into the gym asking how to lose weight, I tell them to lift weights and they look suprised. 'You lift weights to bulk up' is the most common answer. Here's part of an article of mine:
> 
> "Myth: So long as I diet, I don't need to train to lose fat.
> 
> ...


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## hilly (Jan 19, 2008)

while i agree with what you guys are saying and im sure its possible does any1 know of many bodybuilders. al the ones i know including every1 i can think of on this site use cardio and the majority go over an hour a day so it must be a necessity in my eyes for getting in contest shape.

you may very well be able to get lean by dieting alone but i think contest shape cardio is a must.


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## SOUTHMAN (Sep 14, 2008)

there is obviously more than one way to skin a cat, con and IB both got in good shape by doing low intensity cardio. JW007 is leaner than most people and does no cardio and only has protien mixed with special brew and a twix. Hacks knows of people who dont do "cardio" who get contest lean. He is simply saying Diet is more important than cardio to the point that a band on diet and no cardio can be more effective.

However when i do weights i use my heart to pump blood around my body and my lungs to breathe in oxygen, doesnt this class as cardio?


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## All4n (May 30, 2008)

hackskii said:


> Here is a post from a trainer that is probably 5 years old from this site, read closely to what is being said, then get back with me on why you think it is so important to do cardio to get lean.


The quotes you provided are worthless, i can't see for the life of me why you posted them. Are we talking about cardio vs resistance training? No. We're talking about resistance training in conjunction with cardio. No one said to drop training and do cardio only. Again, you've completely missed the mark with your extreme one sided views. I really do not understand the relevance of what you have been posting.

I know diet is important. I know resistance training provides many benefits. We all do. They are fundamental factors and that is not the debate.



hackskii said:


> your 1500 cal is far far way to low to keep muscle, and 2000 cals would be much closer, and probably still too low.
> 
> The more aggressive the diet is, the bigger chance of losing more muscle.
> 
> Leaner guys even more so will lose more muscle than fatter guys, it is unavoidable.


For whom? No stats have been provided here or genetics/metabolism of the hypothetical subject. On the second point, by doing no cardio you surely have to go more aggresive with the diet? As you will be creating the deficit required via dropping calories. Therefore going more aggressive i.e very low cals. Especially so in the latter stages of fat loss.



hackskii said:


> When guys are lean and they lose weight, even low amounts of weight, they WILL lose muscle, no getting around this, this is why they use gear, GH, slin, peptides, to try and keep the muscle they have from being eaten up.
> 
> This is why I say cardio is not necessary to lose weight, not for bodybuilding anyway.


Sure, but you don't have to diet with drugs. It can be done naturally and sometimes (even with gear) muscle has to be sacrificed to gain better condition.



SOUTHMAN said:


> However when i do weights i use my heart to pump blood around my body and my lungs to breathe in oxygen, doesnt this class as cardio?


Yeah it's all exercise, just different forms.



SOUTHMAN said:


> He is simply saying Diet is more important than cardio to the point that a band on diet and no cardio can be more effective.


Yes of course diet is the most important aspect, but i do not see why cardio cannot be impletmented in order to facilitate fat loss further. And posting up how "training is better than cardio only" or "long distance running is catabolic" is completely irrelevant to the argument. We're talking about BBers dieting down for a show, yes some make mistakes (too much cardio etc) but others do their cardio and do it right. Most of all get results. I suppose they are all doing it wrong tho? All those who have ever dieted down, with cardio, to single digit bodyfat and won shows or the prep guys who have helped them, i suppose they have been doing it all wrong? Regardless if they have won their show, won the overall, are in the best condition of their life, i suppose they could have done all that much better simply by avoiding cardio completely? I'm sure they'd love to discuss that with you. Don't count on them taking your side though.


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## SOUTHMAN (Sep 14, 2008)

of course they would disagree as they dont do it that way, but then again would you say all the guys that have dieted down and won comps using no cardio are doing it wrong?

best thing to do diet down from the same BF% the same diet and all that jazz but do it once with cardio once without and see which makes you look better. Then you will know which method is for you innit


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## martin brown (Dec 31, 2008)

There are only a very small handful of good BB'ers who can diet without MUCH cardio to get into condition - the only one I know of who has done would be Dave Griffiths.

Cardio is a reality for any competitive BB'er. TBH I think the extra food/nutrients and a little extra exercise are probably a good thing, especially when down to the low figures of BF%.

Sure people go too cardio crazy, but there are points where our lads have simply stopped losing BF 4-6 weeks out and their diets cannot be trimmed down anymore. The only option is more output at that point.

In theory no cardio is great - in reality it leaves most people too fat for a comp.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

All4n said:


> The quotes you provided are worthless, i can't see for the life of me why you posted them. Are we talking about cardio vs resistance training? No. We're talking about resistance training in conjunction with cardio. No one said to drop training and do cardio only. Again, you've completely missed the mark with your extreme one sided views. I really do not understand the relevance of what you have been posting.
> 
> I know diet is important. I know resistance training provides many benefits. We all do. They are fundamental factors and that is not the debate.
> 
> ...


I can see that you just dont understand the relevance of what it is I am saying.

That guy that said the 40 extra calories burned each day with just one pound of muscle is very important.

Too bad you missed the point.

Everything I have posted has relevance but you take it out of context or dont understand the point being made.

If a mailman that walks alot, is either lean to the point of being frail carrying little muscle, or my other mail lady that is fat. The relevance is they have the very same approach as a bodybuilder does yet no resistance training and this type of low intensity cardio does nothing, even at the extreme.

Did you know that a very high percentage of bodyfat is burned by sitting?

Yah, that is right, not doing anything burns the highest percentage of fat.

These guys are training for shows that have dedicated dates where they have to be a certain bodyweigh to make the show.

Generally most guy will work very hard to get into condition.

Look at con for example, I do believe he did not give himself enough time to diet down, had to supplement too much cardio and he burned out.

Many of the guys adjust the cardio to get into condition where the fat loss is really from diet.

Your thinking is eat more, exercise more (cardio), to keep more nutrients in the mix.

Now I gotta say, that sounds good on paper, but has one serious flaw.

Cortisol, yes that little hormone that promotes fat gain at the expense of muscle.

After about 45 minutes in the gym, you will elivate cortisol.

So, the guy that spends hours in the gym have a negative hormonal impact of excess cortisol.

Not to mention the higher intensity resistance training and HIIT offer a better ratio of growth hormone elivation, testosterone elivation, without tapping into the catabolic hormone cortisol.

The idea is to allow one to lose the least amount of weight to spare lean tissue. The fatter you are, the more aggressive one may diet without losing too much muscle.

The very lean guys will lose muscle in spite of condition.

The natty guy with this in consideration will lose more muscle than the one that is on gear.

Lets not leave out of the equation that many of these guys winning contest and are pro's have alot of drugs in this mix, so using a natty guy in your arguement wont be the same as the guy assisted using GH, gear, slin, thyroid, stimulants.

I am telling you that you dont need to do cardio to lose fat, it is not necessary.

You on the other hand suggest you have to, and that is BS, sorry, but just not true, and especially in the context you are thinking it is.

The best way to lose bodyfat to spare muscle is to do it slowly over months.

Many of these guys that compete dont get totally fat out of season, they remain relativly lean year around, do a little rebounding with gear, then get back into shape.

I was in the best shape of my life with a smaller waist at 37 years old than I was at 18 years old. Stronger, leaner, and had massive energy.

Yah, at the start of the diet I lost great weight, I had to drop the cardio as I was losing more than 2 pounds consistantly a week, and many weeks was 3 to 4 pounds.

I dropped all the cardio, upped the meals, and found the sweet spot where I was losing 1.5 pounds a week consistantly.

after many months I had to ditch the diet because I was losing too much weight and got down to 162 pounds, everyone said I looked too thin.

But I was the leanest, strongest, and had massive energy more than any time in my life.

Now, why would this be if I am twice the age of my youth?

I was super active as a youth too, I trained 6 days a week and spent hours in the gym, yah, I looked good, but not as good with diet only and 37 years of age.

I am saying that cardio is not necessary to get into some of the best condition in your life, it is diet and resistance training.

The body only adapts to the stimulis at hand.

As I said, cardio does nothing for hypertrophy, resistance training does, and the more muscle you carry the easier dieting is, as long as the resistance training is there during dieting, the adaptive responce will be to keep that muscle.

Cardio does not offer this, and if you think it burns solely fat, you are mistaken.

If you love cardio then do it, I could care less, just that it is not necessary for fat loss and I have seen countless people in the over 30 years of weight training confirm this.

sorry if you dont understand the reasons why I post things, they are relevent, but you have to pull your head out of the sand and look at the big picture.

Oh, and I got some news for you, overtraining is more common than you think.


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## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

I did quite a few comps with zero cardio

Ones I did cardio for i was stringy TBH

If I needed to burn more calories I would lift more weight, end of story...

Why the fck people think cardio i sneccessary for fat loss is beyond me???

Put it like this, you cna burn more calories sitting on your ar5e in a sauna, Than walikng slowly on a treadmill, so why would you bother, Plus you have all health benefits associated with sauna

Proper real world cardio for fitness sure, but walking on a treadmill, yeah whatever

Bodybuilders do it, because like a lot of things, bodybuilders are brain washed and believe same sh1t, just like "concentration curls buid peak" "high reps burn in cuts" "eating fat will make you fat" "wide grip chins build wide lats" YAAAAWWWWWWWN


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## chrisj28 (Sep 20, 2008)

Good post scott


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## pea head (May 28, 2008)

jw007 said:


> I did quite a few comps with zero cardio
> 
> Ones I did cardio for i was stringy TBH
> 
> ...


Thats because its true,my mate takes them nap 50 things,hes massive and thats how he trains.


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## T.F. (Aug 28, 2008)

pea head said:


> Thats because its true,my mate takes them nap 50 things,hes massive and thats how he trains.


I've seen you mention them a few times now mate, i think i'll give them a go, i want to get massive too!


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## pea head (May 28, 2008)

T.F. said:


> I've seen you mention them a few times now mate, i think i'll give them a go, i want to get massive too!


They are bang on mate,they are up there with the white lightning,richmonds and super skunk.

Can mostly be found on any chav council estate.


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## All4n (May 30, 2008)

> I can see that you just dont understand the relevance of what it is I am saying.
> 
> That guy that said the 40 extra calories burned each day with just one pound of muscle is very important.
> 
> ...


Sure, i agree with this point, but my point is the trainee already has that muscle mass and thus is already burning max amount of cals. The trainee is obviously still training to maintain that mass cardio or no cardio. Not putting cardio in place of training. Just supplementing with it if you will. Do you mean to say by not doing cardio muscle could be gained during the contest prep? Up to a certain point for sure, but not in the latter stages as you have stated weights drops off so easy. But you can still gain muscle/loose fat with resistance training combined with cardio.



> Did you know that a very high percentage of bodyfat is burned by sitting?
> 
> Yah, that is right, not doing anything burns the highest percentage of fat.


So does low intensity cardio doesn't it? 



> Your thinking is eat more, exercise more (cardio), to keep more nutrients in the mix.
> 
> Now I gotta say, that sounds good on paper, but has one serious flaw.
> 
> ...


But can be controlled via diet/supplement use. Providing trainee has good nutritonal program and not doing excessive work cortisol release can be limited. Spend 45 mins in the gym pm but 30 mins am cardio, how does that produce excessive cortisol? Don't mean fasted cardio either.



> I am telling you that you dont need to do cardio to lose fat, it is not necessary.
> 
> You on the other hand suggest you have to, and that is BS, sorry, but just not true, and especially in the context you are thinking it is.


I understand it is not necessary and i have never said you have to do it. I said it can be a part of the overall program as a fat loss tool. Same as using a supplement would be, simply a tool. Not essential i know, but can be helpful. Obviously it can be detrimental in certain circumstances but can be helpful when used appropiately, this is what i am trying to make out.



> The best way to lose bodyfat to spare muscle is to do it slowly over months.


Completely agree. After the trainee has also maintained their muscle for at least 3 months, i beleive this to be very important also.



> I am saying that cardio is not necessary to get into some of the best condition in your life, it is diet and resistance training.


All i am saying is that after diet/resistance training is sorted then cardio can be added as a helpful aid. Providing moderation is in place of course. I am not saying it is essential i am saying it can be helpful. You seemed to have done very well without it, as have others, but then others have also done very well using this tool. Get things in place and they work.

To clarify:

Cardio is not essential i just believe it can be used as an effective tool when used in moderation.

Resistance training/diet is the most important aspect of any cutting program, but i believe cardio can be added in moderate amounts without causing over training.

I'd much rather train than do cardio, cardio is boring. But i find it works well when not done excessivly.

Cardio can be a number of activities, not necessarily walking on treadmill. Practical purposes of simply walking to supermarket that 30 min round trip inseatd of driving. Still form of low intensity exercise.

I wish my metabolism matched my appetite and thus i wouldn't find adding cardio such as a necessity for myself :cursing:

HIIT/GPP work is best form of additional exercise for it's metabolic advanatges. But can be detrimental towards later stages of cut i.e over training.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

All4n said:


> Resistance training/diet is the most important aspect of any cutting program, but i believe cardio can be added in moderate amounts without causing over training.


Why would I want to take away any of my energy from doing cardio that may compromise recovery from my resistance training?

I don't ever recall Arnold doing cardio, if he did then it was never mentioned.



All4n said:


> I'd much rather train than do cardio, cardio is boring. But i find it works well when not done excessivly.


And you have verified this how?

How much is excessive?

Do you honestly think that if you controlled your diet that you could not get just as lean as doing cardio?

I bet you a hundred bucks that if your diet was on, you would be just as lean as or leaner than doing cardio.



All4n said:


> But can be controlled via diet/supplement use. Providing trainee has good nutritonal program and not doing excessive work cortisol release can be limited. Spend 45 mins in the gym pm but 30 mins am cardio, how does that produce excessive cortisol? Don't mean fasted cardio either.


Ah, good question, if you spend every day in the gym, no doubt it would be a problem.

You see overtraining can creep up on you at any time, fatigue from adrenal burnout is no joke, once fatigued immune system is compromised, recovery is compromised, gains are compromised, attitude is compromised, sleep is compromised, fat loss is compromised and even to the point where the body will protect itself by promoting fat loss at the risk of lean tissue.

Thing is, if someone knows their body, they can tailor almost a perfect environment for success.

But I hear too many times fat loss is synonymous with cardio and peoples advice. After hearing it so many times, knowing it is not true and even to the point of compromising fat loss I have to speak up.

Burning more calories by doing something that can compromise gains, make the person feel they can eat a bit more because they did cardio, well you can see where this is all going.

You nail the diet, get enough sleep, don't over train, and do resistance training you cant go wrong.

I never said I was against cardio; my position is it is not necessary, unless you are doing a specific sport.

Look at strongmen, they will grab a 100 pound sack of sand and walk with it till they can't hold onto it anymore.

Is that cardio?

No, but the benefits for that profession or that sport would warrant such training protocols.

Would a sprinter do cardio?

Hell no it would make him slower&#8230;..lol

It would offer him zero benefits.

If he is targeting fast twitch muscles, and we are targeting fast twitch muscles, why should we train any different than the sprinter?

Which by the way do clean and jerks and other fast power exercises, but zero cardio, that is brought upon by his training protocols.


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## sizar (Nov 13, 2008)

T.F. said:


> Just wanted to check you folks opinion on daily cardio, the reason i'm asking is that I wouldn't say i have an inactive lifestyle, however i do have a very inactive job, i.e. i'm sat at a desk all day (mostly looking on UKM lol).
> 
> Anyway, i train Mon, Wed, Fri (legs, push, pull) and do 45mins a.m. cardio Tue, Thurs and some Sat mornings. Would this be enough or do you think, given the fact that most of my day is spent sat on my ass, i should do some cardio in the morning even just 30mins? Now i'm talking fat loss cardio here, nothing major, keeping the heart around 120-130bpm, slow and steady.
> 
> ...


if you want to lose body fat keep the diet clean and early morning cardio . on empty stomach


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## All4n (May 30, 2008)

> Why would I want to take away any of my energy from doing cardio that may compromise recovery from my resistance training?
> 
> I don't ever recall Arnold doing cardio, if he did then it was never mentioned.


As it does not always compromise recovery and can at times aid recovery. Although if it does compromise recovery completely agree it should be dropped.



> And you have verified this how?
> 
> How much is excessive?
> 
> ...


Just through my own experiements. Adding little bits of cardio, becoming leaner and seeing fitness improve on general basis. But yes i'm sure my diet is not 100%. But then i like food, have a big appetite, a not so fast metabolism and had a pretty inactive office job so it was easier/more comfortable to add cardio. I do completely agree if my diet was more controlled (i don't eat crap, just too much of clean foods in general) then i'd be much leaner.



> You nail the diet, get enough sleep, don't over train, and do resistance training you cant go wrong.


Agree. However, do you always advocate no cardio be performed? At all? Besides HIIT. If i am training 3 x times per week low volume split. But i am wanting to drop BF%, what do you suggest? Simply restructure diet to see fat loss? No other activities besides training? Or is their a protocol you would reccomend? HIIT? But what about sub 10% BF?


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

All4n said:


> As it does not always compromise recovery and can at times aid recovery. Although if it does compromise recovery completely agree it should be dropped.


I would be interested in the helping with recovery if you can bring that to the table.

I am all ears mate (adaptive recovery).

Teach me mate.



All4n said:


> Agree. However, do you always advocate no cardio be performed? At all? Besides HIIT. If i am training 3 x times per week low volume split. But i am wanting to drop BF%, what do you suggest? Simply restructure diet to see fat loss? No other activities besides training? Or is their a protocol you would reccomend? HIIT? But what about sub 10% BF?


No, not at all actually.

I do advocate cardio, but not in the traditional way you are thinking.

Chop some wood.

Push a car.

Dance.

Do some stomach breathing.

Stretch.

Relax.

Let life pass you by without you being in control.

Breathe.

Do some sprints.

Swim with your kids.

Sleep.

Taste some nice food that makes you feel good.

Take the perspective that all the world is just the same, and realize that one day you will die.

Have some sex.

Dont worry about your bills or life.

Listen to some beautifal music.

Sleep some more.

Take naps.

Allow every day to be a blessing and realize that each day is a gift and you have an influence on each day, either positive or negative.

Relax.

Why do I say this stuff?

Because there are more things than just training.

You can train with great success.

You can train and not be happy.

In the end you need to be happy within yourself to make things happen.

This motivates, this keeps cortisol in check, this is what is most important.

No matter how you take my posts, I love this debate, and I totally appreciate your responces, but I would be most interested in your adaptive recovery thoughts.

Cheers


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## All4n (May 30, 2008)

Great post, some very good points, reps.

I'll dig some stuff up later on active recovery but a main component is reducing lactate acid build up. A short duration low intensity active recovery period post exercise (i.e resistance training) can reduce lactate acid build up and thus aid in a quicker recovery. The other argument is that it increases blood flow to aid in nutrient delivery pwo. I'll try and find what i read before on that one.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

All4n said:


> Great post, some very good points, reps.
> 
> I'll dig some stuff up later on active recovery but a main component is reducing lactate acid build up. A short duration low intensity active recovery period post exercise (i.e resistance training) can reduce lactate acid build up and thus aid in a quicker recovery. The other argument is that it increases blood flow to aid in nutrient delivery pwo. I'll try and find what i read before on that one.


Dude, I am all ears with this one.

Appreciate the time you took to address my questions.

One good thing to remove lactic acid is breathing.

This helps remove lactic acid throught the respirory system and honesly I thought massage was good but not as good as a good stretch and a nice diaphram breathing exercise.

I am going to have another beer, and listen to my ipod.

I need to relax and breathe.

I dont perse have lactic acid issues, but I did a long massage today to help me.

No doubt I will be totally sore tomorrow.

1.5 hour massage.

Massage was awesome, but the music sucked.....lol

Guess I cant have everthing.


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## Jem (Mar 5, 2009)

:laugh:Well thanks folks .....for thoroughly confusing me and making me think that if I do the slightest bit of cardio I am going to go catabolic and lose all the muscle it took me fookin ages to build ....

I do however have a holiday to go on in 4 weeks and whilst my training plans are long term [like for the rest of my life] there is some wishing & hoping for a slightly more aesthetically pleasing stomach [i.e. flatter] before I go on said holiday!!!

With this in mind I have indeed upped my cardio ....I do it on seperate days to weights, its high intensity sprinting interspersed with walking or a good 5k pace for 45 mins max & stepper hill sessions - total workout time lasting for 90 mins or below... and sometimes dare I say it, I even do 30 mins cardio at the end of a weights session ....

Now please ....pmsl ...tell me ...in simple english ...am I doing it all wrong

I have shed, since 22 May - 7lbs and 3 inches off the waist as well as inches from various other places ...& I would like to have my abs on show !!!!! top 2 are there just need the rest visible and the odd bit of serratus would be nice:ban:


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## T.F. (Aug 28, 2008)

Jem said:


> :laugh:Well thanks folks .....for thoroughly confusing me and making me think that if I do the slightest bit of cardio I am going to go catabolic and lose all the muscle it took me fookin ages to build ....
> View attachment 28315
> 
> 
> ...


If you keep doing that, you're probably going to die...........(sometime) :lol:


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## Jem (Mar 5, 2009)

T.F. said:


> If you keep doing that, you're probably going to die...........(sometime) :lol:


cheers Tim :laugh:


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## dantheman (Feb 8, 2009)

cardio is not neccesary lol..

although a good idea!


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## T.F. (Aug 28, 2008)

Jem said:


> cheers Tim :laugh:


Anytime chick


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## essexboy (Sep 7, 2008)

This was my regime 4 years ago.I lifted no weights.

2x3 min rounds skipping

between 8/10 3 min rounds sparring.

3/5 rounds heavy bag

3/5 rounds pad work

2x 3 mins squat thrusts.

2x max pressups.

2x3 burpees.

twice weekly, plus 5 mile run twice a week. that was a ton of work.Pre-fight sparring was alternated with two fighters.I weighed 12 stone, was skinny as hell, but STILL had a ton of fat.you need muscle to burn fat not cardio.


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## ManOnAMission (May 1, 2009)

dantheman said:


> cardio is not neccesary lol..
> 
> although a good idea!


Did you learn that from the ebook written by the guy in your avatar?


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## geeby112 (Mar 15, 2008)

hackskii said:


> I remember long ago I had my diet spot on and I was losing the required weight I wanted to (not aggressive), I added in cardio and lost too much weight.
> 
> I have dieted down using zero cardio and was in the best condition of my life, strictly by controlling my diet and using resistance training only.
> 
> ...


can fat really just drop off by doing weights alone? i mean say you had a big belly from bulking up etc etc im sure some for of cardio will speed up the process bear in mind your protein intake remains high?


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## BigDom86 (Jul 27, 2008)

ive never found cardio to hurt my muscle gains. but i do low intensity only 2 or 3x a week


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

geeby112 said:


> can fat really just drop off by doing weights alone? i mean say you had a big belly from bulking up etc etc im sure some for of cardio will speed up the process bear in mind your protein intake remains high?


Yes fat can drop off by doing weights alone, in fact it is superior for burning more calories than cardio if you factor in the rebuilding process of energy it takes to rebuild the torn muscle fibers, not to mention a higher requirement for fuel for muscle. You can burn fat for up to 3 days after doing resistance training.

If you had 10 pounds of more muscle than you do right now, you would lose a pound of fat after just under 9 days without changing anything what so ever in your diet or exercise routine, or almost 42 pounds in a year, changing nothing but holding that 10 pounds of muscle.


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## andreww60 (Sep 14, 2008)

thought you needed cardio to get rid of fat aswell as diet


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

andreww60 said:


> thought you needed cardio to get rid of fat aswell as diet


Why?


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## gb666 (Mar 14, 2006)

I do weighted interval sprints (as a part of overall training) @ ratio 1:1 for overall heart/lung and CNS, the fitter you are the faster you will recovery and grow the faster you grow the more muscle you can have and the more calories you will burn and need to eat (and enjoy) to maintain mass. Have all on not to over eat and drink after interval sprints the metabolism is that stoked, then it is low intensity running on active recovery days @ around 60% on monitor.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

gb666 said:


> I do weighted interval sprints (as a part of overall training) @ ratio 1:1 for overall heart/lung and CNS, the fitter you are the faster you will recovery and grow the faster you grow the more muscle you can have and the more calories you will burn and need to eat (and enjoy) to maintain mass. Have all on not to over eat and drink after interval sprints the metabolism is that stoked, then it is low intensity running on active recovery days @ around 60% on monitor.


Although I agree in general I disagree in principal.

Cardio is not needed to lose bodyfat.

Cardio will not allow you to develop more muscle.


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## rodrigo (Jun 29, 2009)

CARDIO is the work of the devil....


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## Heineken (Feb 6, 2009)

My opinion.. I do cardio. I used to do it for function (rugby) but since I've stopped playing, I just do it for good health and to be honest, I enjoy it.


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## gb666 (Mar 14, 2006)

hackskii said:


> Although I agree in general I disagree in principal.
> 
> Cardio is not needed to lose bodyfat.
> 
> ...


So an individual with superior cardiovascular conditioning which gives them the ability to recovery more quickly from set to set and workout to workout because of the bodies ability (and central nervous systems ability to cope with exercise induced stress) to pump larger volumes of blood/oxygen through the body to remove toxic waste (lactic acid etcetera) build up then supply nutrients faster to the damaged areas to speed up laying down of new muscle tissue will *not* grow muscle faster than someone who does not do any cardiovascular work, is that what you are saying?

We better inform all those muscular 100-200 metre sprinters out there that all the endurance interval sprint work/drills they undertake each week will massively impact upon the multiple weight training sessions they do to build strength and speed and their muscles will shrink.

Marathon cardiovascular sessions will impact negatively I agree, intelligent mix of steady state and SIT (short interval training) will be of benefit to health and muscular growth long term.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

gb666 said:


> So an individual with superior cardiovascular conditioning which gives them the ability to recovery more quickly from set to set and workout to workout because of the bodies ability (and central nervous systems ability to cope with exercise induced stress) to pump larger volumes of blood/oxygen through the body to remove toxic waste (lactic acid etcetera) build up then supply nutrients faster to the damaged areas to speed up laying down of new muscle tissue will *not* grow muscle faster than someone who does not do any cardiovascular work, is that what you are saying?
> 
> We better inform all those muscular 100-200 metre sprinters out there that all the endurance interval sprint work/drills they undertake each week will massively impact upon the multiple weight training sessions they do to build strength and speed and their muscles will shrink.
> 
> Marathon cardiovascular sessions will impact negatively I agree, intelligent mix of steady state and SIT (short interval training) will be of benefit to health and muscular growth long term.


You are correct but yet you just contradicted yourself.

You say cardio, now as you know cardio is specific heart rate and I don't need to go into the different thresholds here but as you suggest it sprinters don't do cardio, they do HIIT.

Big difference and yes you don't need to do cardio to have bigger muscles.

Consider 20 rep breathing squats, hmm if you can walk or even talk after those you are not using enough intensity.

How about a set of around 10 reps or more to failure in dead lifts, tell me that you won't be gassed when done.

One need only to look at the bodies of runners and suggest what works to build muscles.

Long distance runners are skinny and probably have more body fat than sprinters.

Sprinters have allot of muscle and little body fat.

Weight gain or loss is mediated more with diet than any one single factor or factors combined.

So, if you are burning more calories than you take in, you will lose weight, with or without cardio.

If you eat more calories than you burn, you will gain weight with or without cardio.

The common denominator here is diet, that controls weight.

Sure cardio, resistance training and many other things change calories in vs. calories out, but lets face it, drink one McDonalds shake and you would have to run, not jog, for 50 minutes to burn that one shake off.

Cardio will allow the body to work more efficiently but that does not necessarily equate to bigger muscles, in fact that is like putting a more efficient engine in a car, power is not gained, just mileage.

The body is very smart; it works on an adaptive response rule.

You do something, the body does something.

You resistance train, the body adapts by getting stronger with bigger muscles.

You run long distance the body drops muscle as it has to lug said muscle around and is less efficient in doing so.

I know you are saying that the body recovers better but honestly, you have to eat more to do the same thing, why would I want to compromise my muscle during adaptive recovery to do something else like cardio and compromise recovery?

In essence this is exactly what is happening, lets not factor in the blood needed to digest food, which by the way would be taken away from the recovery after the resistance training.

I have seen guys get smaller doing too much cardio, not bigger; to be honest I would rather let my body rest more and allow it to recover than compromise recovery.

Sorry, I just don't buy it.


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