# Bench press problem



## Peace frog (Jul 2, 2014)

On most exercises it's the muscle/muscle group I'm working that fails first but with bench press it seems it's my arms that fail first, is this normal or is it a problem with form?


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## jimmy26 (Apr 1, 2009)

Hard to say If form without seeing it but elbows could be too flared?

build some big strong triceps.. maybe you're lifting too heavy?


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## squatthis (May 3, 2010)

I'd echo @jimmy26 - Try tucking you elbows in to your sides a bit more and squeeze your shoulder blades together on the bench.


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## jimmy26 (Apr 1, 2009)

Have a look at some Lat activation videos that really helped me also leg drive can play a part

I got better at benching when I started to use my whole body instead of just upper

when in your set are you failing?


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## Big ape (May 5, 2011)

its your form sounds like ur using heavy weight .... pushing the last bit of the movement through your anterior delt and tricep


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## Big ape (May 5, 2011)

squatthis said:


> I'd echo @jimmy26 - Try tucking you elbows in to your sides a bit more and squeeze your shoulder blades together on the bench.


^ this ....


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## Chunkee (Sep 1, 2012)

Pre exhaust first. Do flyes/isolations ect then do your bigger lifts.

My chest has come on very well using this method.

Also, you could lower the weight, once in postition, try and force your hands together (they won't move on the bar) and do your set with that tension. makes a hell of a difference but you will have to reduce the weight significantly to begin with.


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## kadafi39 (Apr 9, 2013)

Chunkee said:


> *Pre exhaust first. Do flyes/isolations ect then do your bigger lifts.*
> 
> My chest has come on very well using this method.
> 
> Also, you could lower the weight, once in postition, try and force your hands together (they won't move on the bar) and do your set with that tension. makes a hell of a difference but you will have to reduce the weight significantly to begin with.


Always thought the opposite was best to do the biggest compound lifts first and then fully tear the muscle up with lighter & high rep isolations...


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## bigjohnc (Apr 10, 2014)

Try using a light weight on dumbbell bench press with a slow controlled movement (don't worry about weight or reps) just feel your pecs stretch out a bit at the bottom then flex them hard on the way up and pause at the top for a hard flex. Doing this will help you create a mind muscle connection. Once you've got the hang of that then look at increasing the weight.


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## Chunkee (Sep 1, 2012)

@kadafi39

So did i mate, always struggled with chest in the past and took the advice off a member on here a while back, it's totally changed my shape in a matter of weeks.

There's very little tricep involvement in flyes ect so you'll be quite suprised how 'ready' you are when it comes to the bigger lifts.


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## PaulB (Jun 6, 2010)

kadafi39 said:


> Always thought the opposite was best to do the biggest compound lifts first and then fully tear the muscle up with lighter & high rep isolations...


Pre exhaust is used by lots of people. I pre exhaust with some sort of fly, move to heavy sets, then finish off with high rep set to pump blood in and stretch the muscle fascia


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## kadafi39 (Apr 9, 2013)

Chunkee said:


> @kadafi39
> 
> So did i mate, always struggled with chest in the past and took the advice off a member on here a while back, it's totally changed my shape in a matter of weeks.
> 
> There's very little tricep involvement in flyes ect so you'll be quite suprised how 'ready' you are when it comes to the bigger lifts.


Will have to give it a go on my next chest day on sunday :thumbup1:


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## Peace frog (Jul 2, 2014)

Thanks for all the replies,I do tend to flare my elbows a bit,I got a chest day Saturday so I'll give that a go and maybe drop the weight a little


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## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

Plant ya feet and drive your heels through too


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## Peace frog (Jul 2, 2014)

Yeah I've tried pushing from my feet but doesn't seem to generate any force but I guess that could be due to not arching my back enough maybe


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## Peace frog (Jul 2, 2014)

Oh and ref jimmy26's question about when set fails I'm doing four sets including a warm up set of 15 reps then I do 12,10,6 upping weight each set,I'm hitting the reps I just feel it's my arms that are failing not my chest,my chest is growing but I'm such a newbie it probably would do regardless of my form


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## Peace frog (Jul 2, 2014)

I do flat bench then incline followed by flys and then following chest day I do the same but with dumbells and switch the dumbell flys for cables,the cables and dumbell flys are the only ones I really feel in my chest


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## DiscSupps (Oct 26, 2012)

Chunkee said:


> Pre exhaust first. Do flyes/isolations ect then do your bigger lifts.
> 
> My chest has come on very well using this method.
> 
> Also, you could lower the weight, once in postition, try and force your hands together (they won't move on the bar) and do your set with that tension. makes a hell of a difference but you will have to reduce the weight significantly to begin with.


Great advice, I love doing pre exhaust before big compound lifts, especially with legs


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## gearchange (Mar 19, 2010)

Yep there are two ways of doing it..One is pre exhaust your chest,the other is to build up your triceps.


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## Kjetil1234 (Jun 10, 2014)

If the tricep is failing, make sure you lower the weight (or do close grips) and do NOT allow the elbows to flare out. I see so many do this and it almost eliminates the tricep involvement.

Hope this helps.


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## J** (Jun 26, 2014)

Somebody mentioned pulling your hands in on the bar (without actually moving them on the bar) this will help so much, great advice


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## RalphWiggum (Jul 12, 2013)

make sure you're setting yourself up right. Always find it helps if I start like this...


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Kjetil1234 said:


> If the tricep is failing, make sure you lower the weight (or do close grips) and do NOT allow the elbows to flare out. I see so many do this and it almost eliminates the tricep involvement.
> 
> Hope this helps.


Do you mean wider grip? A narrow grip is a way to increase tricep involvement.

I'd recommend decline presses to increase pec involvement.


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## Kjetil1234 (Jun 10, 2014)

Ultrasonic said:


> Do you mean wider grip? A narrow grip is a way to increase tricep involvement.
> 
> I'd recommend decline presses to increase pec involvement.


No. You need to train your weak point, not avoid it.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Kjetil1234 said:


> No. You need to train your weak point, not avoid it.


You confused me by saying in your post that this almost eliminates tricep involvement!

Personally I would argue that bench pressing normally but adding in additional tricep work would be a better way to go, with narrow grip bench presses probably being the best option.


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## MRSTRONG (Apr 18, 2009)

i would only tuck elbows in and use a shoulder width grip if benching for strength/power , for hitting chest flaring elbows and a wider grip would be better as you get a bigger chest rom rather than putting the power through triceps .

really does depend on the goal


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## Kjetil1234 (Jun 10, 2014)

Ultrasonic said:


> You confused me by saying in your post that this almost eliminates tricep involvement!
> 
> Personally I would argue that bench pressing normally but adding in additional tricep work would be a better way to go, with narrow grip bench presses probably being the best option.


Ah yes. Flaring the elbows loads the pecs and internally rotates the humerus. Often leads to injuries and weak triceps.

A bench is a good tricep builder if your technique is good. I agree that close grip is the best option, and stop the regular grip as whole for a little while.


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## Marshan (Aug 27, 2010)

ewen said:


> i would only tuck elbows in and use a shoulder width grip if benching for strength/power , for hitting chest flaring elbows and a wider grip would be better as you get a bigger chest rom rather than putting the power through triceps .
> 
> really does depend on the goal


In a nutshell.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Kjetil1234 said:


> Ah yes. Flaring the elbows loads the pecs and internally rotates the humerus. Often leads to injuries and weak triceps.


Agreed. Personally I don't flat bench at all due to the injury risk being higher than decline, and in my view being a less effective chest exercise. But I realise this is a minority view, although I'm not the only one who holds it.


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## Mclovin147 (Nov 11, 2013)

Chunkee said:


> Pre exhaust first. Do flyes/isolations ect then do your bigger lifts.
> 
> My chest has come on very well using this method.
> 
> *Also, you could lower the weight, once in postition, try and force your hands together (they won't move on the bar) and do your set with that tension. makes a hell of a difference but you will have to reduce the weight significantly to begin with.*


All great advice above

But where I highlighted is very important IMO. It mimicks the movement of a DB press (Bringing your hands together at the top and really tensing your chest, getting it much more involved)

Id suggest practising with DB's first, I found it helped me learn the technique best.

without doing the above your just moving the weight from A to B using primarily your shoulders see.


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## Kjetil1234 (Jun 10, 2014)

Ultrasonic said:


> Agreed. Personally I don't flat bench at all due to the injury risk being higher than decline, and in my view being a less effective chest exercise. But I realise this is a minority view, although I'm not the only one who holds it.


Well I don't agree to that at all, because the decline is 1. Allowing and requiring the user to press in a dysfunctional scapular position 2. Perpetuating the dysfunction and lack of mobility when being loaded in that comfort zone.

Military press and incline bench is a nice test to check if your shoulders are healthy in my experience. I also think that someone should only use decline if the shoulders are healthy, or for very low volume.

I've heard coaches preach the decline-fix before and it does not solve the cause of the dysfunction.

Sorry if I'm sounding like a wiseass, lol.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Kjetil1234 said:


> Well I don't agree to that at all, because the decline is 1. Allowing and requiring the user to press in a dysfunctional scapular position 2. Perpetuating the dysfunction and lack of mobility when being loaded in that comfort zone.


If you have time to expand and fully explain this, or provide a link that does, I will certainly give it a read. Right now I do not understand your objection I'm afraid.

For me decline presses are completely functional since the exercise moves the upper arm down and towards mid line, which is the primary function of the pec.


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## Kjetil1234 (Jun 10, 2014)

Ok. Most get shoulder issues due to

1. lack of scapular stabilization. Particularly lack of posterior tilting of the scapula.

2. Poor rotator cuff strength

3. Poor rotator cuff mobility

(2-3 concludes to level of glenohumeral dissociation)

The military press needs all of the above to be In check, which is usually why it's the first exercise to hurt.

The decline bench requires very little mobility, as the ROM is decreased. The scapula is also anteriorly tilted (perpetuating the problem) when the pressing movement is being performed.

Basically it allows you to continue training while you're already in a dysfunctional state, perpetuating it. Contributing the client to furtherly feed the dysfunction into shortness in rotator cuff and anterior tilting of the scapula.

I'm not saying it's not functional btw. I'm just saying that it shouldn't be used if the client doesn't have healthy shoulders. The client should rather rehab and work out the cause of the pains, and get back to variation in pressing to use the stabilization chain as it's supposed to.

This type of "compensatory training" will often cause chronic problems in the shoulder area. And as you probably know, good luck going to your doctor with this type of problem. All you get is painkillers and an order to rest.

Hope this makes sense.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Thanks for the reply, I'll have a proper look at this over the weekend.


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## Peace frog (Jul 2, 2014)

Tried not flaring the elbows and setting myself up properly on the bench on chest this morning,great advice thanks felt worked my chest a lot more,didn't drop the weight but did have to drop the reps so will lower weight a bit next chest day


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

@Kjetil1234

First let me clear up one possible confusion. I don't use decline presses due to any pre-existing injury, and have never recommended them to others for this reason. I use and recommend them as I believe that they are the most effective chest exercises.

As far as ROM goes I actually use dumbbells (which I believe are superior) so this isn't so much of a factor. Also, from what I've read, I thought that actually limiting the ROM by not bringing the elbows much below the shoulder was actually considered safest from the point of shoulder injuries?

As well as being a more effective exercise I also thought that decline presses were preferable from the point of view of preventing shoulder injuries occuring, which you have now brought into question. I have done a bit of online research and have come across the following seemingly reliable article that I would be interested in your thoughts on.

http://www.rrvywahoos.org/azasg/UserFiles/File/Avoiding%20Shoulder%20Injury%20from%20Resistance%20Trng.pdf

This states at the top left of page 12 (page 3 of the PDF) that:



> Conversely, throughout the entire movement of a decline press, the arms are maintained in a safe position below 90º flexion and 45º
> 
> abduction with minimal external rotation making this a reasonably safe pectoral strengthening exercise with a weighted bar or dumbbells.





Kjetil1234 said:


> The decline bench requires very little mobility, as the ROM is decreased. The scapula is also anteriorly tilted (perpetuating the problem) when the pressing movement is being performed.
> 
> Basically it allows you to continue training while you're already in a dysfunctional state, perpetuating it. Contributing the client to furtherly feed the dysfunction into shortness in rotator cuff and anterior tilting of the scapula.
> 
> I'm not saying it's not functional btw. I'm just saying that it shouldn't be used if the client doesn't have healthy shoulders. The client should rather rehab and work out the cause of the pains, and get back to variation in pressing to use the stabilization chain as it's supposed to.


At present I limit my pressing training to decline dumbbell presses, chest dips, and seated* dumbbell presses. Are there any supplementary exercises that you feel it would be prudent to perform to prevent the dysfunctional state that is your concern? I do chin-ups, deadlifts and bent over rows all of which I would hope help scapular stabilisation?

*Seated as I work out at home and I'm too tall / my ceilings are too low to allow me to press standing up!


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## Angerfist (Apr 26, 2014)

This video helped me a lot -


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## Kjetil1234 (Jun 10, 2014)

Ultrasonic said:


> @Kjetil1234
> 
> First let me clear up one possible confusion. I don't use decline presses due to any pre-existing injury, and have never recommended them to others for this reason. I use and recommend them as I believe that they are the most effective chest exercises.
> 
> ...


Hey. That PDF link doesn't seem to work, sorry.

Regarding ROM, it's not the problem. Working inside a pain-free rom will perpetuate the dysfunction. I'm not saying you can't do it, in saying you shouldn't do it unless you're rehabbing in a parallel manner.

If the rotator cuff and scapula are unable to centrate the humerus inside the glenoid fossa while in movement, then the shoulder joint is in fact dysfunctional, and must be addressed.

Exercises that are a "must" for most people following:

* Push ups or some variation to challenge and build the serratus anterior

* Reverse flyes, for development of lower trapz (also a syngerist in posterior scapular tilting)

* Internal, and external rotation of the humerus for enabling and stengthening the rotator cuff.

* Abduction of the humerus, for training the supraspinatus (another important rotator cuff muscle)

Some times a little stretching will appropriate too. Biceps, pec minor, triceps long head, coraco brachialis, lats, pecs and teres major.

A few times you'll want to train the rhomboids if the Posture is truly saggy. Usually the rhombs are tight and dysfunctional too, pulling the shoulder blades too far back.

Hope this helps


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Kjetil1234 said:


> Hey. That PDF link doesn't seem to work, sorry.


Sorry, missed this reply. I just checked the link and it still works for me. Odd. In case you have another way of accessing it, this is the article:

http://journals.lww.com/nsca-scj/Citation/2001/10000/Avoiding_Shoulder_Injury_From_Resistance_Training_.2.aspx



> Regarding ROM, it's not the problem. Working inside a pain-free rom will perpetuate the dysfunction...


I'm afraid you still seem to be misunderstanding me. I do not use a decline press because of any pain when flat bench pressing. I have no current injury. I use and advocate decline presses primarily as I believe them to be a superior exercise for stimulating growth of the chest. Based on what I have read (including but not restricted to the article I quoted before) I also thought an added advantage was that it was safer than flat bench pressing, because it is less likely to cause a shoulder injury, rather than worrying about limitations due to a pre-existing shoulder injury.

[qutoe]I'm not saying you can't do it, in saying you shouldn't do it unless you're rehabbing in a parallel manner.


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## Kjetil1234 (Jun 10, 2014)

Ultrasonic said:


> Sorry, missed this reply. I just checked the link and it still works for me. Odd. In case you have another way of accessing it, this is the article:
> 
> http://journals.lww.com/nsca-scj/Citation/2001/10000/Avoiding_Shoulder_Injury_From_Resistance_Training_.2.aspx
> 
> ...


To re-iterate, I am not talking about any form or rehabilitation, rather training in individuals with healthy shoulders.

Thanks for the info.

Edit: If you still can't access the article I linked to, PM me your e-mail address and I'll send you a copy.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Ultrasonic said:


> Hey mate. Activation wise it's a nice exercise. My problem with it is the beforementioned. You said that it was a safer exercise and I dispute that, but not that it's a nice mass and strength builder.
> 
> I also dispute that it's less likely to cause harm, obviously. Reasons are as already posted.


I had thought that your main objection was that that declines wouldn't solve a pre-existing dysfunction. Are you actually saying that it could cause dysfunction in someone with previously healthy shoulders?

What do you think of chest dips? I actually think they are a better chest builder than decline presses, but I thought they worked similarly as the arm-to-torso angle is similar to declines, and therefor I'm guessing you would have similar concerns?

The reason I currently mix up dips and decline DB presses is because my left chest/arm is a little weaker than my right and I would like to fix that imbalance.


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## Kjetil1234 (Jun 10, 2014)

Yes, without the proper balancing methods, decline and dips can without a doubt cause problems.

Edit: So I read the PDF now from my computer (the link worked here), and I see what you're saying. However I strongly disagree with these guys, from a *functional *standpoint.

However, for trainers without adequate knowledge to assess and correct muscular, CNS and postural imbalances, this isn't a terrible advice. Because getting your clients injured all the time is bad business, right.

I'm talking about the general population. NOT a meathead. A bodybuilder or similiar will exaggerate everything, and in which case a functional body is necessary.

As I already explained, benching in the comfortzone may lead to dysfunction or perpetuate preexisting one. And let me tell you that most of the general population too have lots of habitual dysfuntions that will lead to injury when strained. The shoulder and scapula needs to be quite healthy, both regarding tissue, motoric control and muscular balance, for I.E training the military press on a regular basis.

The decline, you can train a long time, but once it starts to hurt (let me remind that this is almost a failsafe exercise), then it has gone very far and the client will likely (my prognosis) start to have problems even to lift his arms in daily life.

Regarding your problem, how much weaker? Could be technique, could be tightness, could be nerve impingement


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Sorry, keep meaning to reply properly to this and then get distracted by other threads!



Kjetil1234 said:


> Yes, without the proper balancing methods, decline and dips can without a doubt cause problems.


OK, so what I think I need to focus on is making sure I do appropriate additional training so that I can continue to use dips and decline presses. Bear in mind that I currently do dumbbell (shoulder) presses without any issues. Based on what you posted above this sounds like I should add pushups and some rotator cuff exercises to my routine. One thing I'm never sure of with rotator cuff training is when it is best to do them. Time-wise it would be easiest to do these on rest days (I train 3 days per week), but is it then OK to train the following day? My guess is that 24 hours is reasonable recovery time for the sort of light weight, high rep work I assume you have in mind? And is once per week sufficient?



> Regarding your problem, how much weaker? Could be technique, could be tightness, could be nerve impingement


Not that much weaker now, it used to be a lot more, and size-wise my left arm is catching up too. To be honest I'm pretty sure it was simply due to me being very right arm dominent in my day-to-day life. I also used to play a lot of badminton right handed which probably added to this. I should probably mention that I'm a lot less advanced than my forum join date would suggest. I've been training increasingly effectively over the last year, but before that I went years without even touching a weight! When I first joined this forum I trained poorly, ate far too much, and pretty much just added a lot of fat to my ectomorphic frame. Doh! I try to reply to a few of the newbie threads in the Getting Started section since like many others I've wasted time doing all the wrong things, and so try to nudge at least some of them along a better path than I followed!


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## Kjetil1234 (Jun 10, 2014)

Ultrasonic said:


> Sorry, keep meaning to reply properly to this and then get distracted by other threads!
> 
> OK, so what I think I need to focus on is making sure I do appropriate additional training so that I can continue to use dips and decline presses. Bear in mind that I currently do dumbbell (shoulder) presses without any issues. Based on what you posted above this sounds like I should add pushups and some rotator cuff exercises to my routine. One thing I'm never sure of with rotator cuff training is when it is best to do them. Time-wise it would be easiest to do these on rest days (I train 3 days per week), but is it then OK to train the following day? My guess is that 24 hours is reasonable recovery time for the sort of light weight, high rep work I assume you have in mind? And is once per week sufficient?
> 
> Not that much weaker now, it used to be a lot more, and size-wise my left arm is catching up too. To be honest I'm pretty sure it was simply due to me being very right arm dominent in my day-to-day life. I also used to play a lot of badminton right handed which probably added to this. I should probably mention that I'm a lot less advanced than my forum join date would suggest. I've been training increasingly effectively over the last year, but before that I went years without even touching a weight! When I first joined this forum I trained poorly, ate far too much, and pretty much just added a lot of fat to my ectomorphic frame. Doh! I try to reply to a few of the newbie threads in the Getting Started section since like many others I've wasted time doing all the wrong things, and so try to nudge at least some of them along a better path than I followed!


The rotator cuff consist of four small muscles. You don't need to train them hard: 10-15 easy reps. Not to failure. One set per muscle per week should be sufficient! Never low rep on small muscles

IMHO.

Regarding the scapular stabilizer work, you want to make sure that your serratus anterior and lower trapz are well developed and functional (meaning it is able to posteriorly tilt and abduct the scapula accordingly)

I train them like this:

End of chest day: serratus and subscapularis (internal humeral rotations)

End of deadlift day: teres minor, infraspinatus (ext humeral rotations) and Cuban rotations(abducted humeral ext rotations). And pull aparts for low trapz

End of shoulder day; supraspinatus (abductions) and another serratus set.

The arm issue sounds like it's technique related. Don't let your weak arm flare out when you're benching!

Regards


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Thanks very much for the detailed reply :thumbup1: .


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## Kjetil1234 (Jun 10, 2014)

Ultrasonic said:


> Thanks very much for the detailed reply :thumbup1: .


Very welcome mate


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## NoGutsNoGloryy (Jan 7, 2013)

jimmy26 said:


> Have a look at some Lat activation videos that really helped me also leg drive can play a part
> 
> I got better at benching when I started to use my whole body instead of just upper
> 
> when in your set are you failing?


If op's a bodybuilder he shouldn't use this method



Kjetil1234 said:


> Ok. Most get shoulder issues due to
> 
> 1. lack of scapular stabilization. Particularly lack of posterior tilting of the scapula.
> 
> ...


I agree a lot of people don't even bother with their RC as they don't see the importance but it's used in basically every upper body lift there is...


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## jimmy26 (Apr 1, 2009)

NoGutsNoGloryy said:


> If op's a bodybuilder he shouldn't use this method
> 
> I agree a lot of people don't even bother with their RC as they don't see the importance but it's used in basically every upper body lift there is...


Why shouldn't he? Care to elaborate?

A decent bench setup is a decent bench setup who ever you are


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## NoGutsNoGloryy (Jan 7, 2013)

jimmy26 said:


> Why shouldn't he? Care to elaborate?
> 
> A decent bench setup is a decent bench setup who ever you are


Main purpose of bench is to build a chest not a back


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## jimmy26 (Apr 1, 2009)

NoGutsNoGloryy said:


> Main purpose of bench is to build a chest not a back


Thanks for that I did wonder

The OP asked about failing reps not building a chest

Using the lats/whole body definitely gives you extra in a bench press movement


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## Peace frog (Jul 2, 2014)

jimmy26 said:


> Thanks for that I did wonder
> 
> The OP asked about failing reps not building a chest
> 
> Using the lats/whole body definitely gives you extra in a bench press movement


Yeah I am lifting purely to build muscle as rather than just trying for max lifts,and setting myself up properly and squeezing hands inwards has really helped fell my chest working during bench rather than arms,once every couple of weeks I'll go to max just to see how strength is progressing


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## kadafi39 (Apr 9, 2013)

Chunkee said:


> @kadafi39
> 
> So did i mate, always struggled with chest in the past and took the advice off a member on here a while back, it's totally changed my shape in a matter of weeks.
> 
> There's very little tricep involvement in flyes ect so you'll be quite suprised how 'ready' you are when it comes to the bigger lifts.


been using this for a few weeks now and it is literally the best advice ever received on the internets! really helped get that upper chest, but i felt like i lost a little strength so back to chasing numbers for a few weeks now! :thumb:


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## Chunkee (Sep 1, 2012)

kadafi39 said:


> been using this for a few weeks now and it is literally the best advice ever received on the internets! really helped get that upper chest, but i felt like i lost a little strength so back to chasing numbers for a few weeks now! :thumb:


Pleased to hear this worked well for you mate :thumb:

Losing strength isn't the end of the world but if you feel you need to hit top strength again then go for it.

I chase the 'feel/contraction/mind-muscle connection' these days and it's the most enjoyable training i've done.


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## kadafi39 (Apr 9, 2013)

I know, its a tough decision between aesthetics and strength! Still have to work on my mind muscle connection! Glad to hear your progress is good too!


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