# Insulin use - Any dangers of limb loss like Type1's



## TaintedSoul (May 16, 2007)

ok,

Maybe this is a naive/paranoid question or not but something I wondered. And as usual looking at every angle to make sure I'm not causing perm damage.

Seeing as we playing with insulin I was thinking. Is there any chance we creating a simliar environment with high glucose, blood preasure (steroids user), cholestrol where type1 diabetics skin changes and foot ulcers occur resulting in the need for limb amputation down the line perhaps after years of messing with it?

I havent noticed Cutler, Rhul and the likes hoping around and I'm sure they have been hitting it hard but perhaps it's still early days to tell when they older these problem "might" come along?

Thoughts....


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## anabolic ant (Jun 5, 2008)

my mate said after taking it,he would get jitters...but he said he was ok if he had a bar of chocolate and a juice drink...thats all he said about it,but he said all in all for the risks you take with it and what you get from it,you could spend you money on a well thought out stack...but he did say he kept what he gained...!!!

i dont know about what the effects of insulin are from taking it for bodybuilding,but it must have some major use,otherwise all those folk wouldnt use it...and there is obviously a safe way to do it...looking at the pro's etc who take it regular...have heard some people say they've got fat on it...but i only know the physiological and endocrinological interactions it has in the body,i do know that insilun is pprobably the most anabolic hormone in your body though!!!!!

but i couldnt tell you really bodybuilding wise to what it does,but i'm sure there are loads here that can!!!!

oh by the way,my dads diabetic...and i have only heard of diabetics,people who actually have diabetes to have skin problems,go to the hospital for nail cuttings,erm and diabetes related amputations...i've never heard of a non-diabetic amputee nor seen at some of the hospitals i've been in with my dad and also girlfriend who is an amputee!!!!

i think your dangers would be to monitor yourself carefully and watch that you do not go hyper or hypo...think this would be the main thing to watch in a non-diabetic who adminsters insulin!!!!

hopefuly other folk who know could shed some light on this matter for you!!!!


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## Joshua (Aug 21, 2008)

I do not believe that the neuropathy results from insulin use, moreso the underlying diabeties.

Diabetic neuropathy is most likely related to the glycation damage done from glucose being high. This would be most likely in type I cases where the condition is not managed correctly.

I don't know why slin use would result in high blood sugars, unless a subject were to become insulin resistant.

J


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## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

Joshua said:


> I do not believe that the neuropathy results from insulin use, moreso the underlying diabeties.
> 
> Diabetic neuropathy is most likely related to the glycation damage done from glucose being high. This would be most likely in type I cases where the condition is not managed correctly.
> 
> ...


This is true

Diabetics problems in main stem from raised Blood sugar levels, far far more damaging than low blood sugar


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## TaintedSoul (May 16, 2007)

Joshua said:


> I do not believe that the neuropathy results from insulin use, moreso the underlying diabeties.
> 
> Diabetic neuropathy is most likely related to the glycation damage done from glucose being high. This would be most likely in type I cases where the condition is not managed correctly.
> 
> ...





jw007 said:


> This is true
> 
> Diabetics problems in main stem from raised Blood sugar levels, far far more damaging than low blood sugar


Yeah I suppose we wont be dealing with high glucose levels. And I'd assume that maybe cases that get these severe problems have not managed their diabetes right.


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## pauly7582 (Jan 16, 2007)

You'd find it impossible to emulate anything close to the blood sugar profile of a diabetic mate. Plus, there are a whole range of cytokines at play in a diabetic that aren't in a normal individual, even if you use insulin more than you really should.

Also, remember you train. This alone will preserve the health of your peripheral vasculature.


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## pauly7582 (Jan 16, 2007)

TaintedSoul said:


> Yeah I suppose we wont be dealing with high glucose levels. And I'd assume that maybe cases that get these severe problems have not managed their diabetes right.


Usualy obese and inactive. Which is a huge shame. Just a little education and some prescribed exercise would save lives!


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## DrSweeney (Dec 21, 2007)

As mentioned above, the skin changes and ulcerations that you are refering to are caused by persistantly high blood glucose - as would be seen in a uncontrolled diabetes. High blood glucose causes tiny blood vessels that carry oxygenated blood to get thicker, which in turn affects their own oxygen supply, and they die. The tiny vessels Im refering to are known as the microvasculature, and their job is to supply blood to nerves, the kidneys and the eyes. This is why uncontrolled diabetes causes neuropathy (damaged nerves), kidney damage and visual problems. Unfortunately though, once nerves begin to die, this can affect the larger vessels that these nerves once controlled. As a result, skin, fingers and toes' blood supply often gets compromised and they begin to die, or necrose. This can progress up the limb, and so it is often considered benificial in the longterm to offer an amputation. As far as Im aware, insulin itself is not known to cause necrosis of tissue - its a complication of the disease it treats, diabetes


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## d4ead (Nov 3, 2008)

uncontrolled is the word here guys there's 1000's of diabetics and in most cases you wouldn't have any idea that they were unless they told you.

While its true in extreme cases and cases were medication has been misused or not used you find the above things happening however for the most part this is not the case and the diabetic would live a normal long life.

My daughter was born with HPPI a very rare disorder that is basically the opposite of diabetes. her pancreas was making to much insulin and her blood sugar level was sitting on flat 0. She has had her pancreas removed (95%) and even now at times the 5% that remains is still making more insulin then she can cope with however at other times it does not make enough. As a result we administer a mix of both slow and fast acting insulin on a daily basis.

In short what im getting at is that if you manage your blood sugars correctly there is no need to worry.


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## d4ead (Nov 3, 2008)

what do you guys aim for with your blood sugar levels when using slin?

normal is 5.5 for reference.

we consider below 3 dangerous and over 10 dangerous


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Nice thread, brilliant responces.

I thought it was from being insulin resistant where the body had to use even more insulin to bring blood sugars under control, which over time tax the beta cells to basicly get tired or burned out and quit working as well.

I might be wrong here.

If that is the case then I would think the added slin would allow the beta cells to have a little break.....lol

Not sure though how insulin use would effect insulin resistance.


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## Z3R0-CooL (Mar 9, 2004)

i agree with everything that was said.. cant add anything to this responses are spot on. nice one lads


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## stow (Jun 5, 2007)

great thread


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## MyKee (Mar 28, 2009)

This is a great post!

I am type 1 diabetic and can confirm that the responses are very accurate and to the best of my knowledge, true.

The only danger that you need to consider from long term use is Insulin Resistance and severe Hypoglycemia.

I would like to add, you guys are talking about keeping the BS range between 5 mmol and 10 mmol - Why the hell would it be as high as 10 mmol if you are using slin in addition to the insulin produced naturally - seems a scary high level for a non diabetic???

P.S BTW normal ranges need to be as close to 4 mmol as possible, I would personally consider 5.5 mmol a little to high for non diabetics


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## Bobro (May 4, 2009)

MyKee... i could probably do with some tips from you on bulking up whilst being type1...

And TaintedSoul... from what i know about it...

all the suppliments body builders take and protine intake etc, this causes even non diabetics to have high sugar levels (eg.10+)

using insulin isnt likely to lead to needing amputations as mentioned its normaly high surgar levels that cuase this

however, a shot of insulin and exercise and your sugar levels could drop like crazy even hours after (mine do normaly at 3am for some reason) and if you dont catch it quick you can go into a coma... apparantly your liver will then prduce sugar and you will wake out of it a few hours later with a hangover feeling... but if this keeps hapening you can do damage to the brain as essentualy you are starving it of energy (along with the rest of your body)

the other thing is that using Insulin can make your own body stop producing it correctly and essentialy turning you diabetic (trust me you dont want this!!!)

also if anyone doesnt know this, having diabeties and exersizing with high sugar level will actually burn away your muscle (also leads to major cramp and dehidration!) :^(

Final note, dont know about you MyKee but Hypo's suck and really dont feel nice...

good luck


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## Joshua (Aug 21, 2008)

> all the supplements body builders take and protine intake etc, this causes even non diabetics to have high sugar levels (eg.10+)


What supplements are you thinking of? Most BB with good diets consume low GI & low II foods with the exception of the post workout period where they use it to take advantage of advantageous partitioning. Anecdotally, my bg does not go that high during post workout window.



> however, a shot of insulin and exercise and your sugar levels *could *drop like crazy even hours after (mine do normaly at 3am for some reason) and if you dont catch it quick you can go into a coma... Apparantly your liver will then prduce sugar and you will wake out of it a few hours later with a hangover feeling... But if this keeps hapening you can do damage to the brain as essentualy you are starving it of energy (along with the rest of your body)


Could is the operative word here. Using insulin without good dietary control or good understanding of one's physiological response is foolish IMHO.

IIRC you have type II DM which complicates matters. I agree that frequent shortfalls in blood sugar requiring gluconeogenesis is not a good thing. Ideally there is sufficient dietary glucose provision to cover the blood glucose clearance caused by the insulin.

IMO the brain is quite robust against *reasonable *blood glucose drops - the brain gets first dibs on blood glucose, and there are robust mechanisms to stop blood glucose from declining ie there are a number of hormones that increase blood sugar eg(glucagon, catecholamines, glucocorticoids) whereas for decreasing it there is insulin.



> the other thing is that using Insulin can make your own body stop producing it correctly and essentialy turning you diabetic (trust me you dont want this!!!)


Have you any evidence of this. I am not aware of any, nor am I aware of pancreatic feedback mechanisms that would cause this.

With regard to your hypos at 3am, what do you do to try to prevent them? eg foods.

J


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## ANABOLIC-EDGE (Apr 28, 2008)

Yes, very interested to hear whether there are any feedback mechanisms to stop our own insulin, as I like like using the levimer. But not enough to risk being diabetic!


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## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

ANABOLIC-EDGE said:


> Yes, very interested to hear whether there are any feedback mechanisms to stop our own insulin, as I like like using the levimer. But not enough to risk being diabetic!


you wont become diabetic, Thats a a load of rubbish...

Only obese and older people generally get it thro a variety of reasons and they dont inject insulin....

I know not of one documented case of a BB turning diabetic thro insulin use.

Would have thought there would have been one given the amount that use it


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## MyKee (Mar 28, 2009)

Bobro - I'm a newbie - Been pushing weights now for the past 2 months. It's an excellent way of getting HBA1C down to an acceptable level (6 months ago 11.1% compared to a more recent 5.6%)

Everything is against me for bulking currently, my short term goals are to see a drop in my BF% which is currently 23% (6.2" and 16st, 13lb) 2 months ago I was 18st

I know it's going off topic, but I would be really inerested in any views the more experienced guys have on

a) Gaining whilst losing bodyfat??? What is the best approach - And can it be done?

B) Using insulin to my advantage, f*ck it, I need the sh!t anyway so HOW can i use it to compliment a bulking program?

Anabolic-Edge and JW007 - Very true, you are very unlikely to become an Insulin Dependent Diabetic through Insulin use, the vast majority of Type 1 Diabetics (insulin dependent) are diagnosed with Juvenile-Onset and this happens to under 21's in most cases. With sensible use, IMO I dont think you have anything to worry about

In addition - Bobro - I'm taking supplements with no noticeable increase in Blood Sugar levels (Whey Protein, Omega 3,6,9 - Super Multi Vitamin, L-Glutamine and Tribulus)

And - Hypo's suck - I was having loads whe I first started training - Trail and error to work out Dose etc - As with any insulin use, it's all about knowing you body and self care.

Look forward to any responses:thumb:


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## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

MyKee said:


> Bobro - I'm a newbie - Been pushing weights now for the past 2 months. It's an excellent way of getting HBA1C down to an acceptable level (6 months ago 11.1% compared to a more recent 5.6%)
> 
> Everything is against me for bulking currently, my short term goals are to see a drop in my BF% which is currently 23% (6.2" and 16st, 13lb) 2 months ago I was 18st
> 
> ...


Mate

check this site out, there is a diabtetic bodybuilder on there and lot of useful info

http://www.runsweet.com/DiabetesAndSport.html


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## MXD (Jan 23, 2008)

I'd really like to see GB results on diabetics who go on cycle. Particulary high androgenics.


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## MyKee (Mar 28, 2009)

MXD said:


> I'd really like to see GB results on diabetics who go on cycle. Particulary high androgenics.


It's something myself and a Training partner (non-diabetic) are considering - We're holding out on the "natural" way for the next 4 months but it's hard, hard work! Do you think, being a diabetic, that there would be increased risks starting a high androgenic cycle???

JW007 - Top Man - Thanks for the info


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