# Insulin my limited understanding ?



## jjcooper (Sep 1, 2010)

I basically have never read about insulin use in bodybuilding, as it is something i wouldn't personally do, especially at my current stage! but today i kind of got abit of info on how Our natural insulin acts on cells! So in biology today we were learning more in depth about cell membranes, my lecturer then got onto cell membranes in muscle, he was explaining how the protein channel can transport glucose into the muscle! But then he mentioned how when insulin is secreted by the pancreas how it acts on these protein channels cleared up why you would use it as a bulkker for me anyway.

He said that when the insulin is in the blood when it reaches the muscle cell it helps to Expand the protein channel thus letting larger and more amounts of glucose, protein, all forms of nutrients enter the muscle, and when glucose levels are reached the excess glucose would be stored as glycogen, the end results would equal i suppose more nutrients so the muscle can use these for repair to get bigger, and making the muscle fuller because of the glycogen stores!

So if a bodybuilders who use insulin are expanding these protein channels in the muscle more than what natural levels will, they will be absorbing more nutrients. (protein carbohydrate, minerals etc)? and have more energy after taking in carbs?

Is what iv written a load of rubbish or something like how insulin acts on the bodybuilder?


----------



## jjcooper (Sep 1, 2010)

Thought i wasn't going to get any info!

Again some nice info empire reps!


----------



## Hendrix (Sep 16, 2009)

Empire Boy said:


> Yep, used by most elite athletes, especially by endurance athletes to achieve a hyperinsulinemic clamp. It also of course is extremely anabolic as your lecturer showed you, so a favourite amongst bb'ers, especially in conjunction with AAS, as muscle cells are not only being shoved full of macros with insulin, but are turned 'on' via the AR receptor; and given insulin is completely untraceable, most top elite athletes dope with it.
> 
> Read this article jjcooper. I think you'll like it:
> 
> http://joe.endocrinology-journals.org/content/170/1/13.full.pdf


Great read. Am doing my research at the moment for when I decide to give slin a go in 2012.

Like, JJ I always believed I would never mess with it, but tbh I know some many people that use it, with great success. It is potentially dangerous, but armed with the right info, and kepping all the bases covered, using a BG meter etc, makes it pretty safe.


----------



## hilly (Jan 19, 2008)

Empire Boy said:


> To be honest Hendrix, I like it better than AAS. I feel stronger and much more pumped. I am not on AAS, and am 3 weeks into 'slin x4 a week with a GHRH/GHRP combo. I feel stronger than ever.
> 
> However, it is stressful and mentally taxing. You must use the humalog or novorapid, and the fours hours PWO requires pretty much all attention diverted to monitoring your BG and making sure you have all food/shakes measured correctly. I don't think the danger is so much going hypo (you'd seriously have to be a retard to go hypo, and you my friend are the furthest thing in the world from that)...the real danger is getting fat by over-doing the carbs and/or thinking you can eat 'normally' after your injection. 'Slin will break down dietary fat to tri-glycerides which will be stored as fat, and it will do it with raw efficiency a German would be proud of...I like to think of insulin as the German hormone...it doesn't fook around. You give it a job, and give it the macros, and it won't mess about, it will 'shuttle' macros to the correct cells without hesitation. Provided a good link below going over how it does this.
> 
> ...


Empire

What literate have u read that states keeping bs between 5-7 means all carbs will go to muscle and liver.

I think u are missing a little basic info.

Insulin is a storage hormone. It will shuttle nutrients were they are required/needed most.

Once the muscle is satisfied abs the liver which wnt take long all carbs with then be shuttled if they are needed. However insulin is a storage hormone and it's storage bank is adipose tissue. This Cannot be avoided.

That's why the aim should always be to use the least amount of carbs to stabilise blood sugar. The least amount of insulin to create the required response. 5-8 Iu I believe. Then u need the least amount of carbs

It also makes sense to make the switch to mixed carbs then lower Gi carbs so I can stabilise bs ASAP. No point pulsing fast carbs for 5 hours if u can half the total amount from

Slow n have that cover u.

Or atleast this is my understanding.


----------



## jjcooper (Sep 1, 2010)

Empire Boy said:


> You also understand it was jjcooper who started this thread right? Not me. I did not start this thread, I responded to it.


As per title though "my limited understanding" i wanted you chaps to discuss the hormone like you have as i believe thats a great way for people like me to learn more.


----------



## hilly (Jan 19, 2008)

Empire Boy said:


> You also understand it was jjcooper who started this thread right? Not me. I did not start this thread, I responded to it.


Havnt read all ure above comments as the first couple are ****y and I see no reason for it.

We have had gd chats recently on slin So why u responded this way is beyond me.

U should also remember that when u say ure protocol is working to state u are not using it for size but strength as alot are the other way round.


----------



## hilly (Jan 19, 2008)

Empire Boy said:


> This is a North American site, but it gives you all you need to know about the signs of being a pre-diabetic, I think better than our NHS page...http://diabetes.niddk.nih.gov/dm/pubs/insulinresistance/
> 
> Now, if you make the links with what is being said in there, why would you not want to keep yourself in a state of fasting? If you're not in a state of fasting glucose is being converted to tri-glycerides which are stored in adipose tissue. "Fat" is not directly "shuttled" by insulin to adipose tisssue. You understand it has to be broken down to tri-glycerides, right? So why would you want to ingest dietary fat which will be broken down to tri-glycerides which will be stored in adipose tissue AND why would you want to knock yourself out of being in a state of fasting, over 7 for most of the 4 hour window, which means excess glucose is not being converted to glycogen and stored in the liver but converted to tri-glycerides and stored in adipose cells. Again, I don't see how this is all that complicated to grasp if you understand how insulin works.


Again an ****y response. I have read both ure articles and ure understanding is purely spouted quotes from these.

When I originally posted I generally wanted to know which literature stated it best to keep bs between 5-7 to prevent glucose being stored as fat as this would take a whole lot of the worry and calculating out of slin use.

Fact is after reading both of those which are not studies but people's reviews n a bloody diabetic website none state that keeping bd between 5-7 will prevent glucose bring stored as adipose once muscle and liver is satisfied.


----------



## hilly (Jan 19, 2008)

Empire Boy said:


> m8. Your's was sh1tty too, and it confused the hell out of me. I saw no point at all to your post...You said I was "missing a little info" and then basically repeated what I already said in my original post. I just didn't see the point of doing that? Like you want to undermine my post or something?


Not at all read my below post I was genuinely interested as I no u do alot of reading on it do if it came across that way my apologies.


----------



## hilly (Jan 19, 2008)

I understand what ure saying in regards to fasting bs.

What I dnt get it say we need 100g carbs to replenish liver and muscle during that 4 hour period.

Just because u keep bs between5-7 does not mean that once everything is replenished any extra carbs will go to fat. This is common insulin knowledge I believe.

As if that was the case then a simple protocol would be to shoot slin and monitor bs every 30 mins n just keep drip feeding enough sugar to maintain this which may be 300gfor example.

The left over has to go to adipose no matter the bs reading.

I think ure laying to

Much on the term fasted.

Be interested to see what literature u find mate


----------



## Mars (Aug 25, 2007)

hilly said:


> Havnt read all ure above comments as the first couple are ****y and I see no reason for it.
> 
> We have had gd chats recently on slin So why u responded this way is beyond me.
> 
> U should also remember that when u say ure protocol is working to state u are not using it for size but strength as alot are the other way round.





hilly said:


> Again an ****y response. I have read both ure articles and ure understanding is purely spouted quotes from these.
> 
> When I originally posted I generally wanted to know which literature stated it best to keep bs between 5-7 to prevent glucose being stored as fat as this would take a whole lot of the worry and calculating out of slin use.
> 
> Fact is after reading both of those which are not studies but people's reviews n a bloody diabetic website none state that keeping bd between 5-7 will prevent glucose bring stored as adipose once muscle and liver is satisfied.


Iv'e noticed this about EB just lately, ar5y and condescending, he seems to get worse the more he reads, hope is experience catches up soon, he'll be linking bloody wikipedia next :lol: .


----------



## Readyandwaiting (Mar 20, 2011)

Empire is only getting ganged up on by you 2 because he isn't gold yet.


----------



## hilly (Jan 19, 2008)

Empire Boy said:


> You're forgetting how much glucose your brain is using while you are on the insulin Hilly. Yes, at some point your glycogen stores are FULL. But if you keep yourself at what is the equivalent of a fasted state then you are giving your body just enough glucose it needs to keep your brain and basic functions operating...The body can't convert stored fat quickly enough, nor can it pull on the now full glycogen reserves quick enough, to keep your brain fuelled to keep your basic functions operating...you NEED glucose in the blood...5-6 means you got just enough to keep you alive, and safely alive. Again, its like you just woke up in the morning. You don't die when you sleep (which is a fasting period, 'break-fast', is where get breakfast) because your body has just enough glucose at 5-6 to keep you functioning and able to live...
> 
> your brain needs glucose all the time to keep basic things like breathing and consciousness going...so if your BG is at 5-6 it means you're giving your body just enough to do this, while allowing the aminos to be pushed into muscle cells, glycogen stores full, with no excess glucose left over to be converted to fat...5-6 means you got just the amount you need to stop you going hypo. Make sense? Anything over this, i.e bg of 7-9, means your body has excess glucose after glycogen stores are full and it does not need the excess blood glucose to keep basic functions like breathing and consciousness going...people forget how much glucose we need just for the brain to tell the heart to beat, lungs to move, eyes to work, thinking about what my facking BG is etc.
> 
> again, it can't tap into fat and glycogen fast enough if your bg tips below 4 to keep from going into a coma...


Im sorry but i dont agree with this at all.

you take in carbs during the day and pwo - the brain gets them first then they go to liver and muscle. once replenished if ure not depleting them then any carbs will go to fat(storage pocket) ragardless of ure bs reading.

This is what the science says mate. unless u can show me something otherwise it just isnt true.

ure not fasted pwo and ure not glycogen depleted especially the brain so basing ure pwo nutrition on a starved/fasted state is ludacris IMO. There is no way u can keep toping up the brain and muscle/liver with glycogen once their full while ure lied at home on the couch.

once requirements are met the rest is stored. insulin in its basic. irrelevant or BS surely??


----------



## hilly (Jan 19, 2008)

Empire Boy said:


> If your bg is in the range of 5-6 and you are not a diabetic you are in a fasted state. If you are in a fasted state there is just enough glucose to keep you alive...the large amount of insulin you administered is binding tyrosine kinase and via GLUT4 glucose rushes in to cells. Therefore, glucose leaves the blood and goes into cells much more than normally, if you're keeping it between 5-6 that means the glucose rushing in is not as much, as it is less like to be converted to tri-glycerides. If you have more than 5-6, 7 is basically OK, then that means there is more in the blood, less being taken up to keep your brain and basic functions going, and more is therefore available to be taken up converted into triglycerides and therefore stored as fat. But if your blood glucose is low, in a fasted state, your body is not going to converting glucose to triglycerides, it is going to use it to keep you alive. Your brain needs a constant non-stop supply of glucose Hilly. It doesn't take what it needs, and then is OK. It needs it all the time. And when we add such huge amounts of exogenous insulin to our bodies, there is a lot less available, as the insulin is causing it to be shuttled into cells. You want as little as possible of that converted to triglycerides, and the only way to do that is too keep your carbs as low as possible on insulin, and the safest bg level to do this is about 5-6, if you go below 5-6 you're not giving your body enough glucose, if you go over this, then you push the physiology into fat storage. Again, think what you want, but I'll keep my bg between 5-6 with a mix of low and high GI carbs, no dietary fat, and 200-250 grams of protein in that 4 hours window...the amount of carbs I do or do not consume will depend on what I need to keep me above 5 but below 6.


Never have a disputed what u state.

ure still side stepping my question. were is the literature that shows keeping you blood sugar between 5-6 means glucose wont be stored as fat.

or even literature showing that keeping BS levels low means excess glucose will not be stored as fat??


----------



## hilly (Jan 19, 2008)

The original thing I asked u abt.

If I take in 200g carbs pwo in 2 hits having blood sugar at some point upto 8 then I will store more fat than if I split it into 4 meals and keep bs at 5.5 then I will store less fat.

All I asked was were the literature was showing this

I then explained I found it intetesting and it would make devising insulin protocols much easier to limit fat gain.

Think this is the 3rd time I've asked.

If I new this was the case I would obv spend the time monitoring blood sugar more closely.


----------



## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

hmm.. i don't know somehow there got some wires crossed here..

so let me put what i think is the reasoning down:

1. fasted blood sugar is indicative only that you have not consumed carbs in a 5-12 hour period (i.e if all you had where simple carbs, you could hit a fasted level in 5 hours, naturally).

2. Most non-diabetics with normal insulin response actually approach fasted at 5.8, about 4 hours after their last meal (the usual 4pm choc/snack craving office workers tend to get after their 12pm-1pm lunch).

3. Even if your muscle cells and liver are loaded with glucose and glycogen, you can achieve a fasted BG reading.

Something else to keep in mind:

1. Diabetics take 'slin reactively (i.e based on what meal they had).

2. BB's take CARBS reactively (i.e based on how much 'slin they've administered).

Now a diabetic has an issue- if eating a meal, BG levels, without 'slin, will stay elevated- above 14; this damages nerves etc and is detrimental to health.

A non diabetic, even after ingesting a large sugary meal, will usually with 30-45mins go from 14 down to about 7.. the body seek to maintain between 6-7 when in a non-fasted state.

Type II diabetics (and pre-diabetics) are insulin resistant and tend to get fat because they overproduce insulin... so they constantly push carbs into the cells (but the cells are resisitant).. and more glucose is then stored as fat... diabetics who are not careful with their diet, still ahve the same issue- they need to overuse insulin and can get fat for the same reason.

BBs- adminster insulin, then add the carbs to cope. How many carbs? well enough that the insulin is used to shuttle nutrients (and hence not float around free) into the cells. If to little carbs are ingested, the 'slin drives all the carbs into the cells, but free 'slin is still available, so ALL carbs are put into cells, rapidly, and you get hypoglyceamia (its the rapid drop in BG level that does this). If to many carbs are ingested, no problems, your own insulin is released to ensure your BG levels do not stay above 7....

the problem is once again...if you haven't exercised... and your muscle cells are full, and your liver is full... YOU WILL store the carbs as fat (yes insulin IS a storage hormone after all, but its not all it is- more on that later).

Now a BB will administer 'slin usually more than once in a day, and even if only once, if the muscle and liver are full from eating a high carb diet.. then you're just going to store more carbs as fat (but you need to eat the carbs to stop from going hypo!).

So many BBs thought taking HGH would keep them lean when taking 'slin... not so- HGH only works when you're fasted... and have no energy substrate in the blood (it releases free fatty acids, but they are only used, ie burned as ketones, when there is no carbs or protein in the blood). T3 was also used... but while it does increase metabolism slightly, and increase protein synthesis.. it didn't combat fat..

so how do you stop from gaining fat?

DNP. The reason is, it does not affect the blood levels of glucose (so you can take in the carbs to match your 'slin), but DNP DOES affect the MITOCHONDRIA (and its ability to use glucose in the krebs cycle). Consequently, when the glucose is shuttled to the cells.. its all used, but not much energy is produced- more heat is produced instead; so even though you've ingested more carbs, you've produced less energy from the carbs.. so you store less (none) of the carbs as fat.. as you never have enough (its why you feel tired on DNP).

Now, if you take the 'slin EOD.. but take the DNP daily... on the non-slin day, you deplete your muscle cells (every DNP user knows the "flat look" to the muscles, and the weakness) so when you DO take the 'slin.. the muscle cells are emptier than normal, and more glucose can be loaded into the cell, and again, less stored as fat...

Now who was right/wrong between hilly/EB? well both... here's why:

hilly was right, 'slin is primarily a storage hormone, and will store excess carbs as fat.

EB was right in that you need to keep your BG levels between 6-7 (under 6 you risk hypo, over 7, you've eaten to many carbs for your 'slin shot, so to many cals will make you fatter still).

However, you can keep your BG levels in the correct range by refining how many grams of carbs/iu 'slin YOUR body needs by measuring your BG levels at 30min and 60mins post shot; BUT while this helps minimise fat gain by ingesting as few extra carbs as possible, if your muscles are full already, the extra carbs will still be stored as fat... which is why hard workout and EOD is the best way to take 'slin, and even better, as outlined above, is to take it with DNP.

By the way, while i can explain WHY DNP keeps fat gain down with 'slin, I didn't come up with the idea, both A.L REa (in building the perfect beast) and Paul Borrensen BOTH recommended it- their understanding was a little flawed, but the application was correct...

FYI: http://www.bio-freak.com/members/2011/09/the-get-big-at-all-costs-stack-by-paul-borresen/

The nutshell summary: take 'slin EOD (to enable you to deplete the muscle cells a little, and restrict your carbs on the non-slin day); take DNP every day to help deplete the muscle on non-slin days, and to decrease the storage of carbs when on 'slin.

After your 1month cycle of the above, do a month on metformin to make your cells nice and insulin sensitive again... then repeat the cycle as required..

one last thing: Insulin is anabolic (as it STORES nutrients, first in the muscle cells, THEN the fat cells) AND 'slin BINDS to SHBG better than ANY other AAS... so it leave more free AAS to act on the muscle cells...


----------



## B.I.G (Jun 23, 2011)

Some great info in here cheers.


----------



## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

Empire Boy said:


> But I never said it wasn't a storage hormone, of course it is. I thought I made that pretty clear. I also made it pretty clear it will store excess carbs as fat! That is PRECISELY my point through out this whole mess of a thread.
> 
> Leaving DNP out of the equation, where would you want to maintain your BG on fast acting insulin, personally, 5-6, or 7-8, PWO, and after glycogen stores have been depleted through workout/cardio?


well, leaving DNP out of the equation, its a question of when you measure. Immediately post workout, I would still want to be at 6.0; if I'm under 6.0, great i've worked out hard, but will prob be having head spins from rapidly lowering BG (often happens post squats!), if immediately post workout you're above 7.0, you're either a diabetic, or you've been snacking/sipping carbs through the workout..

see as a non- diabetic, you're always going to be at 7.0 or under post workout; if you're a non-diabetic you should be close to 7.0 30mins after your meal, and certainly at 45-60mins post meal.

At any rate, you will store the LEAST carbs as fast post workout... especially if you've worked out hard, and then done cardio, to use some liver stores as well...

however, ONLY taking 'slin post workout, won't bulk you up enough... as ''slin is only active for the 3hours, so apart from the nutrient effects, you only get 3hours of it binding to SHBG... but if you do it 3x day.. you get at least 9hours where you have more free AAS in your system..



Empire Boy said:


> This is what I was arguing all along just without the DNP...but your body also needs glucose to maintain basic functions...so very little is being converted to tri-glycerides if you keep the BG between 5-6, you get less conversion and therefore less storage...even if the liver and muscle cells are full, the body is still using glucose to keep your brain going right? So you don't go hypo...so the lower you can keep your BG, the better, while still saying safe, to reduce the conversion to triglycerides and their storage in adipose cells. This is not controversial is it? This is pretty basic stuff, and this is what I've been saying over and over and over and over.
> 
> Maybe I should have been crystal clear this is PWO when glycogen stores are depleted and muscles are hungry for aminos...but again I thought that would be common sense too.


As I said, you're wrong and right- as in, you're right BUT ONLY IF, your restrict all other carb intake in your diet, and ONLY ingest carbs based on your 'slin shots (by the way, thats how i do it when not on DNP).

Otherwise, your muscles never get a chance to deplete. So the trick is, if not using DNP- tailor your carb intake to be the minimum required (i.e BG readings 5.6-7.0) at 1 and 1.5 hours post 'slin shots, and take in no other carbs, and of course no more than 50g/day fats (all EFAs).


----------



## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

Empire Boy said:


> Also, part of the problem, as i explain above, I am not interested in bulking. I want strength. So my protocol, which is followed by elite endurance and strength atletes is very common...bb'ers its a different can of worms...I'm not a bb'er and I'm not using unsulin for this purpose. I gave a great link to an article at the very start of the article that explains what my goals...as I said, I could give a fcuk about big biceps. I want a 300kg deadlift.


LOL as i said wrong and right- the differnce is your goal... as we've established you're a strength athlete, and I'm a vanity (muscle size/shape- couldn't give fcuk about strength) poseur...

As i've often said there is no good/bad protocol or drug just a goal dependant answer... assuming the fundamental understanding is correct. I don't think any one doubted your fundamentals..


----------



## Hendrix (Sep 16, 2009)

Wow I am going to have to read this thread 4-5 times to understand the info.

Busy days, head tired, how do people cope with 6 hours sleep?


----------



## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

hendrix said:


> Wow I am going to have to read this thread 4-5 times to understand the info.
> 
> Busy days, head tired, how do people cope with 6 hours sleep?


LOL mate I'm in germany during the week.. its 2:21 here.. and i get up at 6:30 to go the gym... insomnia is a bitch! my mind is to active- this is me winding down! LOL


----------



## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

Empire Boy said:


> Well, I stand 100% by all that I posted as being entirely correct science if your goal is to gain strength and stay lean, not bulk and get muscle. I never ever was saying that my goal was to bulk, so I was never wrong in the thread. I just gave my response, and it was just assumed I would try to be bulking while keeping off fat. Anyways, I've never been stronger, I'm off AAS, and I am actually leaner and weigh a bit less (but lifts are going up, dramatically so, almost mind boggling so) since being off AAS and on 3 weeks of 'slin in the way I was describing above. So if you want to get huge, no, ny way is not the best, but I was never saying it was for that purpose. Maybe if I was asked what my goal was in the first place, rather than being told I have "missed a bit of info" none of this sh1t would have happened. I need another xanax.


oddly, while most would think 'slin is used for strength/bulking, i've used it for:

1. Keto diet- to get into keto in under 8hours.. taking carbless 'slin; used it to do a TKD.

2. low carb (50g/day) diet with re-feed day- I carb up every sunday, using 'slin for a massive carb-up- weight can increase 4-6kg in 24 hours... talk about FULL! LOL


----------



## Hendrix (Sep 16, 2009)

ausbuilt said:


> LOL mate I'm in germany during the week.. its 2:21 here.. and i get up at 6:30 to go the gym... insomnia is a bitch! my mind is to active- this is me winding down! LOL


I honestly don't know how you cope. Is that a regular thing? Must be great sh1t mate. Last night I was lay awake thinking, I only have 7 hours, am horrible and tetchy on less. Maybe its all in my head. Do you believe you can train yourself to need less sleep? Tiger Woods only needs 3 hours.


----------



## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

hendrix said:


> I honestly don't know how you cope. Is that a regular thing? Must be great sh1t mate. Last night I was lay awake thinking, I only have 7 hours, am horrible and tetchy on less. Maybe its all in my head. Do you believe you can train yourself to need less sleep? Tiger Woods only needs 3 hours.


i don't mean it badly, my wife is the same.. whereas, i truly think you just get used to it...

if i go less than 4hours sleep, i'll take 200mg modafanil, but with 4-6 i don't.


----------



## Hendrix (Sep 16, 2009)

i don't mean it badly. I know that matey. ADHD med right?


----------



## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

yep it is... but trialled by USAF for maintaining performance in sleep deprived pilots.... 40 hours no sleep, 600mg moda, only lost 27% performance (most people who are sleep deprived for 40hours HALUCINATE!)


----------



## hilly (Jan 19, 2008)

Gd post aus

Empire u do have an attitude issue for sure or it comes across that way.

All my initial question was u stated as long as one keeps their blood sugar between 5-6 pwo n post slin jab then no carbs will be converted to fat.

I'm yet to read this in any book or literature.

Aus said once glycogen levels are full carbs will store as fat. So if I continue taking in carbs and keep bs at 6 no matter how many carbs I take I wnt get fat. Even if glycogen stores are full.

That's how I read it n I just didn't agree mate.


----------



## hilly (Jan 19, 2008)

Empire Boy said:


> Again, you jumped in on this thread, you challenged me. Not the other way around. So I think you have the attitude problem, and you have yet to contribute anything to this conversation in terms of protocol, how insulin works, or anyting at all constructive. You just want to keep banging away that if you keep your bg between 5-6 you will get conversion and storage of fat. Well of course you will. But for the love of GOD Hilly, I have always been saying you will get ALOT less as this the safest and LOWEST you can keep your BG. I still don't understand how any of this is or was difficult to understand.


it still bewilds me that we are both going round in circles here.

All i kept asking was for confirmation that keeping BS between 5-6 would cause no fat gain. Purely because if this is true then i would adjust my protocol.

You will find i have contributed similar info to yourself but looked upon from a slightly different way because i was trying to understand were u came to this conclusion when i could not is all.

We have discussed both ure protocol and mine in other threads.

Aus post was slightly more detailed than ures and he never made any claim that you can totally stop fat gain by keep a BS between a specific reading. I dont get how u are taking this the wrong way.

If u cited a study or even phys book or something showing that keeping BS between 5-6 caused all nutrients to be stored in muscle and not fat then i would have probs offerd you a cyber blow job because it would mean i could be even more accurate with my slin protocol and not be so worried about using it for heavier gaining phases etc.

Like you i put alot of time into my protocols and was contemplating changing mine from your info. However i doubt you would change ure protocol on just some1's word without asking were they got the info.

Jeeeez big hug


----------



## hilly (Jan 19, 2008)

Empire Boy said:


> The real trick is to keep your BG between 5-6, as for us non-diabetics this is essentially a state of being morning fasted. *So, when you keep yourself here while only ingesting high and low GI carbs (powders) and whey (with creatine and BCAAs) ALL of those macros are being used to build muscle and converted to glycogen for storage in the liver..*..but if you push the BG over 7-8 for the whole time, the body will convert the excess carbs (after it can't convert anymore for storage in the liver) into tri-glycerides for storgage as fat...and of course any dietary fat full stop will be eventually stored as fat.


that quote was the one that interested me as i said earlier because i would be able to improve my method and limit fat gain even more  to me that reads that as long as im keeping BS between 5-6 then i canot store fat as it will all go to muscle building even if stores are full and excess carbs are being taken keeping us between 5-6.


----------



## hilly (Jan 19, 2008)

Empire Boy said:


> It should not have been "ALL", Ok. I know its not all. But you get a lot more going towards basic functions to keep you alive, and A LOT less going to tri-glycerides which are then stored in adipose tissue. The protocol is still a good one, and you would be VERY wise to make sure your BG is not too much over 6 while on 'slin, or you will get more conversion to fat...I have said this 1000 times, and Aus said it plenty enough above. I also gave you a link, Rea, I also gave you a link on diabetes, which if you read between the lines, tells you why you would want your BG in a fasted state between 5-6, as your body is using a lot of free floating glucose to keep you alive, not converting it to tri-glycerides and storing it as fat. I'm going to get this etched into my head stone I've said so many times now. "RIP 1 12 2011"


This was my query all along. all i was saying from the start is excess carbs will be stored as fat no matter the BS read.

and as you rate was Aus says so much



ausbuilt said:


> However, you can keep your BG levels in the correct range by refining how many grams of carbs/iu 'slin YOUR body needs by measuring your BG levels at 30min and 60mins post shot; BUT while this helps minimise fat gain by ingesting as few extra carbs as possible, if your muscles are full already, the extra carbs will still be stored as fat... which is why hard workout and EOD is the best way to take 'slin, and even better, as outlined above, is to take it with DNP.


This is all i said from the start. Niether of us were wrong and we both understand what is going on i was trying maybe even hoping that u would back up what u said because it would have been very useful to me.

i dont no why u need to keep refering to the fasted state and repeating ure info. its this statement i have quoted several times that was my only query and it was purely in the hope that i could improve my knowledge and thus how i intend to use slin in the future.


----------



## hilly (Jan 19, 2008)

Empire Boy said:


> I got the exact protocol based on the the article in Journal of Endocrinology I linked above, and from Aus. I told him my goals, he gave me this protocol, the article confirmed it. Look, I never meant to say no fat will be converted.
> 
> But you are not answering my question:
> 
> ...


Well i apoligise. but what you wrote was incorrect by ure own admitance and if i hadnt questioned it and took it as gospel and made adjustments to protocol then it would have been a mistake.

My fasting blood sugar is always between 4-5 and i very rarely take a normal blood sugar read away from food that is above 5 as it happens.

I can sit at 4 no probs at all. I start to feel hypo sub 3.5


----------



## hilly (Jan 19, 2008)

ill make sure to blow you an kiss after my posts from now on mate.

No harm done 

x


----------



## hilly (Jan 19, 2008)

Empire Boy said:


> I think you're a nutter. And I wish I could do it that low. That would be awesome if I could keep it below 5, but I feel hypo setting in at 4.5...Again, we got this all cocked because of one little word I used as I was a little excited. Its not that I need to be handled with kids gloves, but there is a way of telling people they wrote down something wrong, and its not "you seem to be missing a little BASIC info"...the basic got me big time...and when you say that it immediately discredits all the correct and spot on info I gave, that you then went on to simply repeat as if I hadn't already said it.... This, I will not lie, got me upset. And this is why I don't do that to other people's posts, only if they are questioning mine in a way that tries to undermine me will I jump like a pit bull terrier on rabies. Its not a good trait, but its just me. But I never have the compulsion to tell other people they are wrong...I'm not here to do that...


i dnt start feeling hypo symptoms till sub 4.

When i wake without fail im always around 4.5


----------



## C.Hill (Nov 21, 2010)

You are missing some basic info though empireboy


----------



## C.Hill (Nov 21, 2010)

Empire Boy said:


> The only way you can wind me up Hill is to tell you are now deadlifting 230kg.


Haha won't be long mate, training back in 2 hours actually, instead of full rom deadlifts from floor, I'm gonna do some rackpulls, load up the weight! Never done them before so will see how it goes!


----------



## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

i think the short answer is:

Empire Boy is right in ONLY ONE specific circustance:

- You inject 'slin 1x day, post workout, and had controlled carbs earlier in the day; this was your muscles are slightly depleted and will take all the carbs in, and no spillover into fat. However to have a depleted liver as well.. takes a few days on under 50g/day carbs...

At all other times with 2+ 'slin shots a day, or over 100g carbs, day, you increase your chances for fat storage, hence Rea & Borrensen all advocate DNP with 'slin..


----------



## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

hilly said:


> Well i apoligise. but what you wrote was incorrect by ure own admitance and if i hadnt questioned it and took it as gospel and made adjustments to protocol then it would have been a mistake.
> 
> My fasting blood sugar is always between 4-5 and i very rarely take a normal blood sugar read away from food that is above 5 as it happens.
> 
> I can sit at 4 no probs at all. I start to feel hypo sub 3.5


medically speaking, and according to NHS blood tests 5.8 is fasted; in some Australian Labs, 5.6 is fasted. When on a keto diet, you can easily be under 4.0 for days..

however, if you shoot 'slin and don't do enough carbs you can go from 7.0 to under 4.0 in a minute.. its the rapidity of the drop that puts you into hypoglyceamia as your brain cannot source an alternative fuel (keto take days to get into.... even with carbless 'slin 8-12hours, but thats low dose 2-3iu of 'slin ever 4hours)..


----------



## hilly (Jan 19, 2008)

ausbuilt said:


> medically speaking, and according to NHS blood tests 5.8 is fasted; in some Australian Labs, 5.6 is fasted. When on a keto diet, you can easily be under 4.0 for days..
> 
> however, if you shoot 'slin and don't do enough carbs you can go from 7.0 to under 4.0 in a minute.. its the rapidity of the drop that puts you into hypoglyceamia as your brain cannot source an alternative fuel (keto take days to get into.... even with carbless 'slin 8-12hours, but thats low dose 2-3iu of 'slin ever 4hours)..


I tend to be low 4's everytime I check them aus wether pwo or fasted on rising.


----------



## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

hilly said:


> I tend to be low 4's everytime I check them aus wether pwo or fasted on rising.


have your run a calibration solution with your meter?? its bloody unusual to be that low on rising... you may have hyperinsulemia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperinsulinemia

its really odd to be that low..


----------



## C.Hill (Nov 21, 2010)

Empire Boy said:


> I apologise Hilly..


Apology accepted mate, no worries


----------



## hilly (Jan 19, 2008)

ausbuilt said:


> have your run a calibration solution with your meter?? its bloody unusual to be that low on rising... you may have hyperinsulemia:
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperinsulinemia
> 
> its really odd to be that low..


My mum is diabetic so have used both of hers to check.


----------



## C.Hill (Nov 21, 2010)

Empire Boy said:


> Thank god!
> 
> 220kg Hill, easy, 90%...I'm creeping up. Except the [email protected] who took the video took it upside down, and I'm trying to figure out how to go from the format on an HTC desire to Youtube, it won't upload. Can't figure it out...unlike insulin


Well done mate!

My lower back is aching like fúck from them rack pulls earlier, Prefer proper deads lol

Regarding the insulin this has been a very interesting thread, I've learnt alot from it, many informative posts and alot of food for thought. Love a constrictive debate


----------



## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

hilly said:


> My mum is diabetic so have used both of hers to check.


i've got no answer... or even guess.. all i can say... odd!


----------



## hilly (Jan 19, 2008)

ausbuilt said:


> i've got no answer... or even guess.. all i can say... odd!


Think I will monitor fasting blood sugar for a week n also after a general meal and see how it patterns out.


----------



## hilly (Jan 19, 2008)

Empire Boy said:


> I don't know about debate. It was more me spitting my dummy out. But I tend to do that. I've put it back in. But we did get there in the end via Aus. Me and Hilly went a good 12 round though, and Aus did some very good referring.


And I thoroughly enjoyed the rounds.

Always gd to chat like that as it makes me think.


----------



## hilly (Jan 19, 2008)

Empire Boy said:


> Yeah, but I'll tone it down next time. Honestly Hilly, since I've been off AAS, I've been a miserable rag of a cnut. I feel strong as ever, lifts better than ever b/c of slin and peps. But I've been a cnut at work too. Maybe I need to get bloods done again. My test levels were lowish, but OK. I thought it would be a few weeks back to normal...I don't know, I am on 50mg proviron ed, and then just the slin and peps...but when I was on ace/prop/var I was as calm and a hindu cow...now off AAS for 9-10 weeks and I've never been more irritable. Its got me a little concerned.


Sometimes I think this happens not directly to t levels but actually psychologically coming off gear.

I find the same thing however I have droped to a cruise dose this time to experiment and still have the same type of feeling u do.


----------



## Bish83 (Nov 18, 2009)

jjcooper said:


> I basically have never read about insulin use in bodybuilding, as it is something i wouldn't personally do, especially at my current stage! but today i kind of got abit of info on how Our natural insulin acts on cells! So in biology today we were learning more in depth about cell membranes, my lecturer then got onto cell membranes in muscle, he was explaining how the protein channel can transport glucose into the muscle! But then he mentioned how when insulin is secreted by the pancreas how it acts on these protein channels cleared up why you would use it as a bulkker for me anyway.
> 
> He said that when the insulin is in the blood when it reaches the muscle cell it helps to Expand the protein channel thus letting larger and more amounts of glucose, protein, all forms of nutrients enter the muscle, and when glucose levels are reached the excess glucose would be stored as glycogen, the end results would equal i suppose more nutrients so the muscle can use these for repair to get bigger, and making the muscle fuller because of the glycogen stores!
> 
> ...


Essentially yes. There's upper ceiling limit to how much insulin your pancreas produces which would prevent you from surpassing your genetic limit. Insulin shots helps overcome this.

If you juice this might speed up the process but don't think using it alone will be an alternative. Your not at your genetic limit and your not recovering as fast as someone on juice is.


----------



## hilly (Jan 19, 2008)

Empire Boy said:


> This is my hunch Chilsi. I think while I am back producing test, it is still not normal/high as it was, and I am probably suppressing it slightly with the proviron. I think also that the proviron is adding to my agression/irritability, because its still working as an androgen, but then I have low test, so am feeling 'low' while mildly agressive, and I think the combo amplifies both. So yes, I agree completely, I think I might drop the proviron, and just use natural SHBG binders like tongkat alit etc. Keep the proviron when on lots of test and a DHT derivative oral...plenty of other ways to inhibit SHBG with supressing your HPTA, if even slightly, its still not good.


Are u using any d aspartic acid.

After utilising it in my last pct I wouldn't pct without it now.


----------



## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

What I find funny about the argument in this thread, is that there is some fundamental misunderstandings about insulin being profligated on both sides.

Carbs are rarely directly turned to fat (de-novo lipogenesis), even if they are in excess with the presence of insulin. What happens is the insulin reduces lipolysis, so excess dietary fat (tri glycerides) is stored while the glucose is burned off for energy. De-novo lipogenesis only occurs in very specific circumstances - such as body glycogen stores being completely topped out (rarely after working out), or if dietary fat intake falls below 10%.

You can't look at the situation in isolation, it's more of what happens over the course of 24hrs.

Also, insulin is way more complex than it's being credited for, it's not just a storage hormone, in fact it's main effects are inhibitory within the body. Have a read of the following 7 part series, a good eye opener:

http://weightology.net/weightologyweekly/?page_id=319


----------



## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

Empire Boy said:


> With the levels of exogenous insulin administered Bayman, insulin will indeed convert glucose to tri-glycerides much more so than during a natural spike, and the supraphysiological levels will also be rather effcientat storing the tri-glycerides in adipose tissue, as it will be with converting dietary fat to tri-glycerides and storing them. Your thinking natural levels here my friend. We're not talking about that are we? Do you think its just a fluke that a lot of inexperienced non-diabetics users get fat when administering slin for anabolic purposes?
> 
> Your points are sound, but really useless to the conversation, other than a mild troll, as there is no reason to say "misunderstandings about insulin being profligated on both sides". Its not the case.
> 
> I have read and studied all in your link, its pretty basic stuff mate, nothing new. But thanks. Your link is also totally irrelevant to non-diabetic men injecting supraphysiological amounts of insulin for an anabolic effect.


Must be a fast reader then, it's a seven part series, and it's relevant to the way in which insulin works, normal levels or supraphysiological. There's no reason insulin would convert dietary fat to tri-glucerides, this is done by an entirely different process and hormone.


----------



## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

Empire Boy said:


> Are you saying that supraphysiological levels of insulin in NON DIABETIC men will NOT lead to an increase in the mechanisms that induce dietary fat to be converted to tri-glycerides? (NO BODY said insulin directly does this, we all said it LEADS to this). So are you serious? After you just said there are misunderstandings on both sides, you are going to sit here and say insulin will not induce a positive feedback loop that leads to the increased conversion and storage of dietary fat in adipose tissue? Really? Sometimes I am just gobstruck on here by people wanting to come in and prove a point and make other people look bad. It is weird, and I never do it. There is no point to you coming in on this thread now, the discussion is over. And if you are not 100% certain a mistake is being made, its best just to keep your hands off the keyboard. There are no misunderstandings here Bayman.


I'm not coming in and having a dig for the sake of it. Your post gives the impression that insulin directly stores fat as one of it's main mechanisms. It doesn't, as the info in the link I referenced shows. There is mechansim for it to produce tri-glycerides though, I agree.

If you post stuff with such black and white authority, then it needs to be correct. I know it's difficult to always leave an answer online that doens't lead to pages of ramblings to explain a point mind.

What you're accusing me of could well be directed at yourself, that was my roundabout point to be honest.


----------



## C.Hill (Nov 21, 2010)

Empire Boy said:


> If you sharpen your blade too much, it will get dull. If you strike without cause, you stand the chance of breaking your blade, and or being struck back. Its best just to deliver a blow when it is going to a killer one. You're own was far from it. However, I should stop trying to deflect such minor blows with my shield. But its a big shield, and I like to break swords.


I like this alot excellent metaphor, dramatic but good!


----------



## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

Empire Boy said:


> Again, this is another case of being too facking literal...just because I say insulin causes fatty acid conversion and storage, does NOT mean I am saying it directly does this. IT DOES AND CAN MEAN that insulin is the physiological trigger needed to set this off...IF YOU ARE SO KNOWLEDGEABLE THEN YOU KNOW THIS. And I'm not going to post up the exact mechanism showing how insulin does induce a pathway that will lead dietary fat to be converted to fatty acids which are then stored. BECAUSE I ALREADY DID in the first LINK I posted. *Christ all mighty help me. So again, are you saying you can inject insulin, eat dietary fat, and you will be just fine? Is this WHAT YOU ARE SAYING?*
> 
> People need to stop taking digs where they don't need to be fooking taken. What is the mental processes that leads somebody to do this? If you sharpen your blade too much, it will get dull. If you strike without cause, you stand the chance of breaking your blade, and or being struck back. Its best just to deliver a blow when it is going to a killer one. You're own was far from it. However, I should stop trying to deflect such minor blows with my shield. But its a big shield, and I like to break swords.


I don't know where you think I conveyed the above bolded point?

Anyway, your understanding and mine on the effect insulin has on fat storage seems to differ, I can see in an already short exchange we've gone past the point of constructive debate, so I'll leave you and your "sheild" to it.


----------



## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

I thought we were debating what happens to excess carbs, and insulin's effect on that?

Dietary fat, so far as I'm aware is broken down and absorbed into the lymph system where is ends up as chiromicrons (sp?) in the blood, these are directly stored by acylation stimulating protein in the fat cells.

Like I said, insulin's primary role in fat deposition (as far as I'm aware) is the inhibition of lipolysis (fat burning), so more is stored.

That's not to say insulin has no direct fat storage effects, but it's not it's primary role.


----------



## hilly (Jan 19, 2008)

ausbuilt said:


> have your run a calibration solution with your meter?? its bloody unusual to be that low on rising... you may have hyperinsulemia:
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperinsulinemia
> 
> its really odd to be that low..


Aus

took my blood sugar today 45 mins to an hour after eating 300g cooked white rice(80ishg carbs) and white fish with egg whites.

BS read was just 5.2

How does this drop/read look in line to readings you have taken ureself

Empire boy also interested if you have any thoughts/input into how ure responses run in line with this.

No slin was used


----------



## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

hilly said:


> Aus
> 
> took my blood sugar today 45 mins to an hour after eating 300g cooked white rice(80ishg carbs) and white fish with egg whites.
> 
> ...


thats amazing.. i'd expect it to be around 6.0, but not under within 45mins... I have no better explanation than Empire Boy on this.


----------



## Zangief (Aug 5, 2010)

So i just read from page one..... I don't get it?

Jokes  awesome info up in here! some of you have a little bit to much time on your hands though! lol x


----------



## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

Zangief said:


> So i just read from page one..... I don't get it?
> 
> Jokes  awesome info up in here! some of you have a little bit to much time on your hands though! lol x


I'm in germany mon-fri, wife's in london, see her weekends only... i got to much time on my hands at night....well one hand's full...


----------



## Zangief (Aug 5, 2010)

ausbuilt said:


> I'm in germany mon-fri, wife's in london, see her weekends only... i got to much time on my hands at night....well one hand's full...


lol mate my missus is in Newzealand and i can assure you one of my hands has been very full! 3 time's daily it's getting ridiculous! 4 weeks into my cycle


----------



## Zangief (Aug 5, 2010)

Empire Boy said:


> HAHAHA! I'm gonna pass out laughing. Love you Z :wub:


lol  I'm quiet looking forward to trying some slin next year, can get the Humalog kwik pen's cheap so ill be tapping you up for some info mate!


----------



## Zangief (Aug 5, 2010)

Lol chill out winston


----------



## Zangief (Aug 5, 2010)

Haha, you train alone in your gym then mate? I train alone sometimes find it harder without a spotter


----------



## hilly (Jan 19, 2008)

Empire Boy said:


> Are you supplementing with a lot of chromium picolinate? Or any thing else that might induce insulin sensitivity? Have you alway been pretty cut and skinny, i.e. an ecto, plus always active in sport?
> 
> It just sounds like you are extremely healthy, probably insulin sensitive genetically (a lot of ISR-1 receptors), played a lot of sport/cardio...your body is probably 'programmed' to always take in a lot of glucose...I wonder if the body upregulates the production of more ISR-1 as well? Sort of like it does with an alcoholic and alcohol dehydrogenase etc.
> 
> Also, I don't know, as I have not looked into it, but I wonder if what makes some people really good endurance athletes, and athletes in general, is that they also can store more glycogen than other people, and you might have a genetic predisposition to do this! I don't know, this interests me, I'm sure somebody's published on it...I'll have a look.





ausbuilt said:


> thats amazing.. i'd expect it to be around 6.0, but not under within 45mins... I have no better explanation than Empire Boy on this.


sorry forgot to mention. I took an R ala tablet with this meal.

2.5 hours after the actual meal and around 1.5 hours after that last read BS was 4.1 on one machine and 3.8 on another. wasnt feeling any hypo symptoms at all.

like i say every time i check my blood sugar a good way away from food its always sub 5 usually closer to 4

and actually i store fat/water pretty easy and mainly around my midsection.

i was a fat kid lol

P.s just ate 1 bowl oats, 40g almond flour, 200g egg whites and 1.5 scoop isolate. 30 mins post meal 8.1


----------



## Slight of hand (Sep 30, 2008)

Used to sell insulin for a living - still like to read the popcorn posts whenever you guys go at it.

Never understood the point in using it unless you really understant the mechanics and treat it as a science, it's not like jabbing test eod - good to see you lads have grasped it.

please don't start on Basal's i couldn't bare to read all that again!!


----------



## hilly (Jan 19, 2008)

1 hour after my last meal. 5.7

By 2 hour mark I no it will be 4-4.5 I'm

Sure.

All my readings show as normal when I google average bs reads tho guys.


----------



## hilly (Jan 19, 2008)

cheers mate

bed at 11 last night. was up at 2 for toilet n was peckish so had 2 cereal bars and a pro shake

took BS at 8 and was 4.7 if i hadnt eaten would definatly had been 4.

I need to find a study that looked at normal BS responses after meals over a 2-4 hour period to see how mine fall in line


----------



## Zangief (Aug 5, 2010)

Empire Boy said:


> I go into the gym when its heavy. I am on a 5.3.1 and on the 3rd wave I go in x3 a week with the lads...but when early days I can do bench and squats no worries. Deads are deads of course. Unless you are this muppet...
> 
> This is the worst thing I've ever seen. A part of me died while watching it:


LOL wtf is the point in that? bloody idiot


----------



## jjcooper (Sep 1, 2010)

Some good info in here chaps, just had a read through!

didn't expect such a good response! Deffs worth a sticky everyone can take something away from the information shared!


----------



## Brutal1 (Jan 25, 2011)

Crazy thread but a good read and ive learned a lot.Ive got my slin, now need to get some pins and my bg reading gear sorted, where do you guys get yours from?

Cheers


----------



## hilly (Jan 19, 2008)

Empire Boy said:


> This is a good basic one, and it is nice as you don't have to keep putting strips in and out:
> 
> http://www.amazon.co.uk/Accu-Chek-Compact-Plus-Blood-Glucose-Monitoring/dp/B0009VPYJ2/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1323081623&sr=8-2
> 
> ...


good links

do you know if that pen would take the humalog cartridges


----------



## hilly (Jan 19, 2008)

Ure fasting bs is 7 ???

Had u ate during the night?

I would not be using slin if my fasting bs was that high.

Get on some met and ala ASAP IMO.


----------



## hilly (Jan 19, 2008)

chilisi said:


> Choc Orange mate
> 
> Yes, I need to get some metformin in.
> 
> Still not overly happy with being 7.0 this morning, as It is higher than normal.


this to me would be an immediate stop to insulin and start met and ala


----------

