# The Only Workout Info You Will Ever Need



## Bulldozer

I saw this on another board i use and think it just about sums it up for me.

Good read 

This was originally posted by JRX on bb.com...

Read this:

On the Anabolic Mind's forums, a powerlifters take on getting big and why some people who are always over analysing things never grow

Virtually everything you've ever read from a bodybuilding magazine is heresy and should be regarded as not worth the paper it was printed on. The programs written by the so called "superstars" of the bodybuilding world were actually ghost written by some guy in a cubicle who doesn't know a thing about proper training, programming, exercise phys, or periodization. If, by chance the program was actually written by the "superstar" you can rest easy as long as you are one of the most genetically gifted people in history AND you are on such a ridiculous amount of drugs that you have to tan to hide the yellowing of your skin due to liver failure.

The fact is that big, strong guys are a dime a dozen, and many of them get that way in spite of their training knowledge than because of it.

I know what I'm talking about in the world of training not because I'm the biggest or the strongest (although, at 270lbs and an 800 squat, 600 bench, and 700 deadlift I can hold my own), and not because I know the most about exercise phys (though I can hold my own there too), but because I have trained with and become friends with best. I have trained at Westside Barbell Club, with the Metal Militia, talk on a continual basis with the best strength coaches in the nation and world-wide, and the training methods I prescribe have been tested in the gym on literally hundreds and hundreds of regular, everyday athletes and shown to work. Period.

So here's what I can stand before you today and say with great conviction what I know to be true about training:

1) I believe in general that the majority of people don't work hard enough. If there's one thing we can learn from the old Eastern Bloc countries, it's that they worked harder than us, and that primarily, is why they always beat us in the Olympics. Work hard in the gym (even if your program sucks) and you will be rewarded.

2) I also believe that most people don't put near enough emphasis on lower body and core work. The key to getting big is full squats and deadlifts. If you are looking at your routine and you see that you are training upper body 3 or 4 days per week and lower body once, you have a serious problem. The majority of athletes should live and die in the squat rack.

3) And for that matter, EVERYONE'S program should be centred around these exercises: Full Squat, Deadlifts (or cleans or both), heavy barbell rows, bench press, and Standing Barbell Military Push Presses. Add pull ups, barbell curls, dips, heavy abdominal work, and some core work (back extensions, reverse hypers, or glute hams) and that should make up 95-100% of the total number of exercises you do. The most effective training is simple and hard.

4) Training a bodypart once per week (and one bodypart per day) is one of the worst ways to train. It will create a rut in your training that you can't dig out of.

Training a bodypart twice per week has always been shown to be superior to once per week training of a muscle. The problem is with the influx of "Weider Principles" and other bodybuilding trash that's posted in the magazines, the masses have been stuck in the one-bodypart-per-day-per-week rut for years.

No strength athletes train a bodypart once per week. Most Olympic lifters, powerlifters, and strongman train their backs at least four times per week, and last time I checked, they weren't lacking in back width.

The simple fact is that training using an upper lower split or a push pull split or 3 full body days will provide double or triple the training stimulus than training a muscle once per week and thus, if done correctly will lead to much, much greater growth and strength gains.

5) Training to near muscular failure has shown to induce identical hypertrophy gains than training to all out muscular failure. The reason you guys can't train a muscle more than once per week is because you are destroying it when you do train it. Learn to hit or miss that last rep and then call it done. Don't do ridiculous amounts of forced reps, negatives, etc. until you literally can't move the muscle. Take it to near failure and then your muscles will recover enough so that you can train them again in 3-4 days.

Understand that there is a huge difference in training to near failure and not training hard. I would never advocate to not train hard. Actually, quite the opposite - try to squat for 5 sets of 5 reps using only 10lbs less than your five rep max. That's absolutely brutal. But when you get done, don't go to the leg press machine and keep pounding out sets and stripping off weight until you literal can't do a single leg press with only the sled. That's absurd, and you can't recover from it in 3 days.

6) Squat at least below parallel every time. Are you kidding me? I can't believe some people are still quarter squatting and saying that riding a squat all the way to the ground is bad for your knees. Learn the facts. Stopping at or above parallel puts much more strain on your knees than going ass to grass. Plus going all the way down in an Olympic style back squat will put more mass on you than any other exercise. Period.

7) Isolation exercises are absolute crap. 90% of your routine should be made up of full squats, deadlifts or cleans, bench press, standing overhead press, heavy barbell rows, pull-ups, dips, and core work (abs, glute ham raises, back extensions, reverse hypers). Isolation exercises and machines are the worst thing that ever happened to the weight training world.

8) Quit using pyramid rep schemes like 10,8,6,4,2 - Instead, your time would be better served doing boring (but effective) gut busting sets of 5x5 or 4x8-10 using the SAME WEIGHT for each set. They WILL produce better results than the pyramid scheme. BTW, check your ego at the door when you do these.

9) I'll quote my good friend, Glenn Pendlay (the best S&C coach in the nation) for the next one:

"Most athletes do too many exercises. Many times they look over other peoples programs like they are at a buffet. They pick a little of this and a little of that from a variety of programs, and end up with something useless. People think you have to train each muscle with a different specific exercise. Many guys in college athletics would do better if they would just randomly slash off half of what they are doing, and then work twice as hard on the half that is left."

10) Another of my favourites from Glenn:

"im so sick and tired of hearing people who just started training who say they cant gain weight. jeez I've heard this crap so often. every day it seems i have some stupid kid ask me about how to gain weight... in restaurants, at the grocery store, you name it. for some reason there seems to be a sign on my back or something. usually i know its worthless to talk to them, sometimes i actually waste my time. talked to a kid at the golden corral a couple of days ago. took almost an hour when i should have been enjoying my all you can eat steak night... 3 days later i see him in the gym when i just happened to go in to talk to a friend who i knew was there... kid was there doing preacher curls. said hi to me, then said well i talked to my friend about what you said and he said he tried it once and over trained so i decided to do this thing i read about... on the other hand about 6 months ago i talked to this 6' tall, 150lb kid who wanted to know about getting stronger. kid had done well in judo, won some titles, also after that had done cycling, turned pro then quit a year later, quite a good road racer. he actually did what i told him i guess, about 3 months after i saw him the first time i saw hiim again, he weighed about 185... he wanted to try Olympic weightlifting so i let him train with the team i coach. now hes weighing 204 and clean and jerking about 300lbs, 54lbs gained in 6 months. no drugs. Olympic squat from 175lbs to 385lbs, front squat from 150lbs to 330lbs. hell be a good lifter, has a good work ethic. needs to be 240 and fairly lean, will compete eventually in the 231 pound class. will take about another 12-15 months i suppose. why is a kid like this the exception and not the rule? why will kids do the same old thing for years in the absence of results, and not try anything new? what the hell is wrong with people. there is a gym in town, i know the owner so i go and talk to him sometimes, there are all these kids in there, skinny little ****s, doing curls. they never progress, you see the same faces one year to the next, same bodies too."

11) Ultra slow reps or TUT is, for the most part completely worthless. Will it work? Yes. But the total amount of work that one can complete is much lower when utilizing slow reps. Just go natural. Don't try to be super fast, and bouncy, and don't try to go ultra slow. Just do it naturally and controlled.

12) "The burn", "the pump" and "the feel" have nothing to do with the effectiveness of an exercise. Yes, even I have been caught on upper body days looking at myself in the mirror when I'm all blown up, but that has nothing to do with the effectiveness of the last exercise. You do hammer strength bench presses and flyes for sets of 20 and I'll do heavy barbell bench presses and deep dips. One of us will "feel the pump" more and the other one will grow.

13) Likewise, delayed onset muscle soreness (DOMS) also gives no clue as to the effectiveness of a workout. It just means A) you have a ton of microtrauma in a muscle or a lot of lactic acid waste products. Congratulations.

14) "Core stability training" is not done on a swiss ball or a stability board. It's done by pulling heavy deadlifts, standing overhead presses, full squats, heavy barbell rows, heavy farmer's walks, Atlas stones, tire flipping, reverse hypers, heavy back extensions, glute ham raises, and heavy abdominal work.

15) A good gym has nothing to do with how nice the machines are or if they have a pool or tanning beds or even if it's air conditioned. A good gym smells like a mix of body odour and liniment and supplies their members with a big box of chalk.

Kelly Baggett, one of the best strength coaches his take as well on how to get bigger

This is not to attack anyone but I'd be willing to bet a lot more natural muscle has been built using the recommendations of Matt and Glenn over the years then all the complicated bodybuilding schemes out there. The problem with bodybuilders is they try to overcomplicate everything and lose site of the big picture.....that's making strength gains in the gym on basic movements along with scale weight increases on a week to week basis. Now you can complicate that as much as you want but those are the only 2 things it takes to get big. It doesn't take any sort have fancy specialized training routines and special diets. If more people would spend more time in dark stinky ass gyms worrying about putting weight on the very basic movements and spend more time eating in high volume (note the golden corral reference) with an emphasis on gaining scale weight then a lot more muscle would be built.

For every bodybuilder who has success building a physique naturally I'll show you at least 20 who don't get jack **** in the way of results because they sit around with their thumb up their butt worrying about this and worrying about that and basing everything off of their "pump"...worrying about the "feel" of this exercise and trying to trash the muscle every workout without any regards to periodization and failing to realize that if they would've just strived to put 50 lbs on their squat and 15 lbs on the scale their problems would be taken care of......They go starving themselves to death on boiled chicken and broccoli while spending $300 per month in supplements thinking they can get "bigger" and "smaller" at the same time spending 5 years wasting time not gaining 10 lbs of scale weight all while looking at strength athletes with their nose up in the air when what they don't realize is that fat powerlifter they like to make fun of has actually put on 50 lbs of muscle in the last year and he could spend 3 months stripping that fat off and hand you your ass and balls in a bodybuilding contest simply because he trained very simple, focused on strength gains and most importantly wasn't afraid to sit down at the dinner table and do some serious eating.

Give me 2 twin brothers one who hangs around with and reads bodybuilding related info for a year and another who hangs around with and trains at a powerlifting gym both without steroids and after that year is over let's see which one builds more muscle. Nine times out of 10 I'll take the powerlifter.

Having said that a strength athletes routine may not be 100% optimal for a bodybuilder but there are a lot of things people could learn from strength trainers.


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## ParaManiac

Good article,makes alot of sense.


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## justdiscovering

WOW!!!!what a read great post.


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## Ziricote

Great read.


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## YetiMan1436114545

Great read, really does back up a lot of the members recomendations here


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## Gza1

so based on this info then, what routeen would you use?


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## Bulldozer

Gza1 said:


> so based on this info then, what routeen would you use?





> 3) And for that matter, EVERYONE'S program should be centred around these exercises: Full Squat, Deadlifts (or cleans or both), heavy barbell rows, bench press, and Standing Barbell Military Push Presses. Add pull ups, barbell curls, dips, heavy abdominal work, and some core work (back extensions, reverse hypers, or glute hams) and that should make up 95-100% of the total number of exercises you do. The most effective training is simple and hard.





> 7) Isolation exercises are absolute crap. 90% of your routine should be made up of full squats, deadlifts or cleans, bench press, standing overhead press, heavy barbell rows, pull-ups, dips, and core work (abs, glute ham raises, back extensions, reverse hypers). Isolation exercises and machines are the worst thing that ever happened to the weight training world.


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## bigden

hey dozer wud u do incline bench aswell or just stick to flat bench only coz i like the sound of this


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## CraigE18

Reading articles like this completely confuse me.

One guy says 'Do this, it's excellent'. Another will then say the completely opposite.


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## Bulldozer

CraigE18 said:


> Reading articles like this completely confuse me.
> 
> One guy says 'Do this, it's excellent'. Another will then say the completely opposite.


Yes mate i agree.

But all the info in that article is not "one" person saying it as such. It pretty much sums up sensible training IMO and is how most (if not all) strength athletes train. i.e... powerlifters, strongmen, olympic lifters etc.

Most bodybuilding stuff around the net and in magazines is a load of ****e IMO. Its ok for genetically gifted athletes on a boat load of drugs, but for joe average it leaves lots of people going round in circles.

The basic's work. Period 

Bigden. Sure no reason not to incline press mate.


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## bigden

cheers man was a gud read sum interestin info i agree with 100% pretty much, ive noticed more growth cuttin out isolations outaa my routine especially in my arms i dnt train them and they grow its perfect lol makes things easier, ive been swayin towards more of a powerliftin side of weight trainin now instead of pure bodybuilding


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## simba

if that article is very true than.. all powerlifters would have perfect bodies..

and huge arms.. c'mon to ba bodybuilder u have to train like one... look at shawn ray..

he would laugh at this article... if it works for u .. good luck.

simba


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## hackskii

Bump for later


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## Chris4Pez1436114538

excellent post bully backs up what we have been talking about, 

still aint read that book though yet but will do m8!

Happy christmas every 1!


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## maccer

would like to see Ninepack's comments on this.........it is Christmas after all!!


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## Bulldozer

simba said:


> if that article is very true than.. all powerlifters would have perfect bodies..
> 
> and huge arms.. c'mon to ba bodybuilder u have to train like one... look at shawn ray..
> 
> he would laugh at this article... if it works for u .. good luck.
> 
> simba


This sort of training wont give you a "pretty" body . If you wanna call it that.

But regardless it is how most strength althletes train. This is fact.

A lot of strongmen/ powerlifters have more muscle on there frame than shawn ray could have ever dreamed of. Just covered with a layer of fat thats all.

If more Bodtbuilders trained like Powerlifters (at least to start with) there would be more big guys around IMO.

Most aspiring BB train with too much volume and too many isolations, thats why the boards are full of threads asking for advice on gaining mass.

Train smarter , not harder. Train twice as hard on half the volume and most would do better imo.


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## ah24

Bulldozer said:


> This sort of training wont give you a "pretty" body . If you wanna call it that.
> 
> But regardless it is how most strength althletes train. This is fact.
> 
> A lot of strongmen/ powerlifters have more muscle on there frame than shawn ray could have ever dreamed of. Just covered with a layer of fat thats all.
> 
> If more Bodtbuilders trained like Powerlifters (at least to start with) there would be more big guys around IMO.
> 
> Most aspiring BB train with too much volume and too many isolations, thats why the boards are full of threads asking for advice on gaining mass.
> 
> Train smarter , not harder. Train twice as hard on half the volume and most would do better imo.


There's always going to be 2 sides of the coin though.

I recommend once out of the beginners stages going into 'BBers' workouts, isolation exercises etc.....I've done well off it so far (I like to think lol) but then you obviously have great gains with this type of training. Everyones different so its more a case of find what suits you.

At the moment I've gone upto training *5* days a week....I can just see you, nytol and big fainting at your computers

I train each bodypart twice a week except arms and calves which get trained once..Split into 'power' and 'hypertrophy' workouts.

mon = upper body (strength 3-6reps......compounds only and low volume)

tues = lower body (same as above)

weds = off

thurs = chest/back (hypertrophy 8-12)

fri = legs (12-15)

sat = shoulders/arms (8-12)

sun = off

2 things about this, firstly I'm a believer that if your protein intake and water intake is optimum and coupled with proper rest you can recover perfectly well.

Secondly, it may not work - but what have I lost by giving it a go? I seem to be fine at the moment on it.

Quite a few guys say people go on about 4 day splits all the time on message boards etc but IMO, at the moment, more people are preaching about over-training and should do 2 day splits etc much more than those recommending 4 day splits.

I think too much emphasis is focused on overtraining and think many people actually undertrain.


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## Tall

How are you periodising your routines...?


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## bigden

Bulldozer said:


> This sort of training wont give you a "pretty" body . If you wanna call it that.
> 
> But regardless it is how most strength althletes train. This is fact.
> 
> A lot of strongmen/ powerlifters have more muscle on there frame than shawn ray could have ever dreamed of. Just covered with a layer of fat thats all.


 i agree the thickness and density of powerlifters mucles are just immense and plus i prefer the powerlifter look to the all out bber look tbh


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## trickymicky69

this sounds very much like the routine i have been training with for the last year.

i also attribute my strength to the simplicity of it all, which although not amazing is still very good for an 80kger.

i train like this

mon - 2 warm up sets bench

4x6 flat bench

2 warm up sets squats

4x6 squats

wed - 2 warm up sets deadlift

4x6 deadlift

2 warmup sets barbell rows

4x6 barbell rows

fri - 2 warm up sets dips

4x8 weighted dips

2 warm up sets squats

4x10 squats

and if i feel like really going mad i might do a few sit ups but thats it. i have put on around 8kgs in a year doing it like this. much more than i ever did bodybuilding and i hardly ever take a week off. when bbing i needed a week off every couple of months


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## simba

i still dont agree.. if thats the case ..than why would jonnie jackson..wanna train like a bodybuilder.. or ronnie ?

show me a power lifter who can match shawn ray ?

his record speaks for it self..

they are two different sports...leave it at that...

but if u find it works for you ...great...

god bless


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## Tall

simba said:


> show me a power lifter who can match shawn ray ?


In terms of...?

Muscle mass...?

Power/Strength...?

Asthetics...?


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## Bulldozer

simba said:


> *show me a power lifter who can match shawn ray ?*
> 
> his record speaks for it self..
> 
> *they are two different sports*...leave it at that...
> 
> but if u find it works for you ...great...
> 
> god bless


Yes they are 2 different sports and your the one who made the comparison to start with bud, not me 

Im not talking about guys who use boat loads of gear, peptides and site enhancment oils (and dont kid yaself, the pro's do use them) and have great genetics. (guys such as Ray) That is the far end of the scale.

Im talking about the average joe wanting to bulk up and build lean body mass. Not step on stage!! But to actually build some mass. IMO PL style routines are more effective at this than BB routines. At least for the begginer/intermediate trainer.

This board and others like it are full of threads started by guys who have recently started BB (last year or so) and looking to gain mass, but finding it difficult. They post up there training and surprize, surprize they are doing a typical BB routine, 3 or 4 day split, training each bodypart once a week using 8 to 12 sets a bodypart. Hitting the muscle from all angles, blah blah blah, yada yada yada.

Now show me a thread when a guy has just started BB and is having trouble gaining mass with a training program that concentrates on squats, deads, bench, ohp and heavy rowing for example. Training 2 or 3 times a week using only basic movements with maybe a 5x5 rep range and concentrating on getting *stronger* , In other words training more like a powerlifter would.

I have been on the boards for about 18 months, i post on atleast 10 boards and have read thousands of threads and have yet to see the later, but have seen hundereds of the former. Just an example of what im talking about 

Im not saying BB techniques dont work for some people. (they obviously do) But high volume and high frequency training doesnt work for a lot of guys. Especially while training drug free (which i hope a guy with only a year or so of experience would be)

IMO , as i said earlier in the thread. To start off with i believe you should build a solid strength foundation before you make a switch to hypothropy based training.

Look at some of the best BB of all time, franco, arnold, ronnie to name just a few, they all started out as powerlifters. They built the foundation and then made the switch to bodybuilding.

In other words train more like a powerlifter to start. Also anyone that thinks that low rep training doesnt build muscle is deluded .


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## Bulldozer

TH&S said:


> In terms of...?
> 
> Muscle mass...?
> 
> Power/Strength...?
> 
> Asthetics...?


Exactly lol

Its like comparing apples and oranges 

Shaun Ray VZ mariusz pudzianowski

Muscle mass , i take mariusz

power/strength mariusz

asthetics Ray

I win 2-1


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## Tall

Bulldozer said:


> Yes they are 2 different sports and your the one who made the comparison to start with bud, not me
> 
> Im not talking about guys who use boat loads of gear, peptides and site enhancment oils (and dont kid yaself, the pro's do use them) and have great genetics. (guys such as Ray) That is the far end of the scale.
> 
> Im talking about the average joe wanting to bulk up and build lean body mass. Not step on stage!! But to actually build some mass. IMO PL style routines are more effective at this than BB routines. At least for the begginer/intermediate trainer.
> 
> This board and others like it are full of threads started by guys who have recently started BB (last year or so) and looking to gain mass, but finding it difficult. They post up there training and surprize, surprize they are doing a typical BB routine, 3 or 4 day split, training each bodypart once a week using 8 to 12 sets a bodypart. Hitting the muscle from all angles, blah blah blah, yada yada yada.
> 
> Now show me a thread when a guy has just started BB and is having trouble gaining mass with a training program that concentrates on squats, deads, bench, ohp and heavy rowing for example. Training 2 or 3 times a week using only basic movements with maybe a 5x5 rep range and concentrating on getting *stronger* , In other words training more like a powerlifter would.
> 
> I have been on the boards for about 18 months, i post on atleast 10 boards and have read thousands of threads and have yet to see the later, but have seen hundereds of the former. Just an example of what im talking about
> 
> Im not saying BB techniques dont work for some people. (they obviously do) But high volume and high frequency training doesnt work for a lot of guys. Especially while training drug free (which i hope a guy with only a year or so of experience would be)
> 
> IMO , as i said earlier in the thread. To start off with i believe you should build a solid strength foundation before you make a switch to hypothropy based training.
> 
> Look at some of the best BB of all time, franco, arnold, ronnie to name just a few, they all started out as powerlifters. They built the foundation and then made the switch to bodybuilding.
> 
> In other words train more like a powerlifter to start. Also anyone that thinks that low rep training doesnt build muscle is deluded .


Quality post bully. Quality.

Volume/Hypertrophy training isn't for the trainees who have 'recently' started their training (unless they are doing it under supervision with a trainer who is monitoring their progress on a weekly basis) - and that is something which is missed out when routines like that are published on the net/in magazines.

PL style training - or if you like focussing on the basics - is IMHO the best way forward when starting training, and its certainly has its place and should be used even when people beleive they have broken out of that 'beginners' label.

+1 Sir.


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## chrisj22

I've trained 5 days a week, I've trained 4 days a week, I've even trained 3 days a week, but it's down to the individual & how they adapt. I train twice a week, & yes, I follow compound movements because nobody can deny that lifting heavy weight (with textbook form) builds muscle.

It's all about trial & error TBH. I get overtrained very easily & I'm not being a big girl trying to 'tell myself' I'm overtraining, I know when I'm overtraining. I don't want to train when I'm overtrained, I hate the thought of going to the gym, I'm always fatigued - now why would I think like that when I love training?? Why wouyld I not want to train when I've been doing it for 5 years??

I know for sure that my intensity has increased by about 30% going twice a week because I feel fresh & raring to go. It's all swings & roundabouts.


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## Cookie

To read later......

If I have time & it interests me for long enough to finish.....


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## Chris4Pez1436114538

Well at the minute i have to agree with the fact that training like a power-lifter first is the best thing and i am only glad that i have realized this earlier rather than later!

I have been looking over this after being told about it and TBH after Christmas my training is going to change to PL rather than the classic BB!

I watch a lot of the DVDs by the pro's and also read a lot of the books and ebooks and TBH a lot of the big stars who are now in BB said that they started doing power-lifting rather than BB and their bodies are probably a lot better than others and they place fairly well in contests when they compete!

What i say is give this sort of training ago, (making sure you keep proper STRICT technique) and see what happens, if you dont gain you have lost nothing, but if it does work then you have gained everything and remember you can always lose BF later when "cutting" by reducing calories and doing cardio!


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## simba

mariusz used to be a bodybuilder before he took up strong man...


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## Bulldozer

simba said:


> mariusz used to be a bodybuilder before he took up strong man...


I only used mariusz as an example.

But if he used to be a bodybuilder thats a new one on me and quite frankly i doubt that. (but could be wrong lol)

From wikapedia

Background

Mariusz maintains his agility, conditioning, and general physical preparedness through other athletic endeavors. He is a practitioner of Kyokushin karate (fourth kyu), which he has been practicing between the age of 11 to 13 (later between the age of 26-27). He was also a competitive boxer for seven years (1992-1999), three of which were spent in the Kosedowski League. Mariusz is a favorite in every strongman competition he enters, having been defeated only twice in Poland through 2002, with his worst placing being a respectable second.

Pudzianowski's father was also a large weightlifter and winner of the Polish weightlifting championship in his youth. When he saw his son's size and potential at a young age, he began to give him advice in weightlifting. This relationship continues today, as Mariusz has revealed that his father continues to coach him in his training.[1]

Unlike some strongmen, Mariusz retains a very low body fat percentage which helps him with his speed and endurance.

Following the example of bodybuilder Arnold Schwarzenegger, he intends to pursue acting after his strongman career (he already played in 6 Polish films so far). Along with his brother Krystian he also founded the Pudzian Band

Nothing about formerly being a bodybuilder.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mariusz_Pudzianowski

Not that it really matters


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## simba

bro the article is good...but when its the ultimate word.. i mean not all pros are wrong in the mags or trainin dvds...

who would listen to about building muscle... dennis wolf or some german powerlifter ?

damn, we could write a book ...lol

god bless you bulldozer


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## Bulldozer

simba said:


> bro the article is good...but when its the ultimate word.. i mean not all pros are wrong in the mags or trainin dvds...
> 
> *who would listen to about building muscle... dennis wolf or some german powerlifter ?*
> 
> damn, we could write a book ...lol
> 
> god bless you bulldozer


LOL

I would listen to the powerlifter anyday buddy 

Training mags and dvds. You cant be serious surely mate?

These are a (on a whole) a total joke. Written by some ghost writer sitting in an office somewhere.

Training like the pro's has gotta be the biggest mistake of them all. (and the dumbest) They are :

1. genetically gifted

2. on sh1t loads of drugs

3. have nothing else to do except train, sleep, eat.

You need to find a volume/frequency/intensity that works for you, not some pro in a magazine.

I can see we are getting nowhere here mate. We will just agree to disagree


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## Chris4Pez1436114538

TBH BB is not about the weight that you lift but how the body looks, too many ppl get wrapped up in the weights that their lifting or weights that other people are lifting but i was on a web site before (cant remember which 1) and Jay Cutler was on it and said obviously he uses high weights, but no where near as high as power lifters and does not care too, he said that too many "wanna be" bodybuilders (his words not mine) worry too much about the weights they are pushing rather than their actual physiques thats why they dont get any where!

He even advised that rather than people over weight the bar, that they use a lighter weight PROPERLY and concentrate on their body and the part that they are trying to make better (notice the word better not BIGGER).

Now me personally i would say that power-lifters by far have the superior strength and also muscle mass, however they also carry a lot more BF than BB as they dont repeat DONT care what their actual bodies look like (no disrespect to them, on the opposite i have a lot of respect for them but they dont need an excellent physique to lift the weights they want and they only care about lifting heavy weights)

So with this i totally back up with the fact that if beginner BB's or even intermediate BB's want to gain mass they should do the sort of training that power lifters do and then when they want to "cut" they should do higher rep ranges e.g the traditional BB training!

Just my opinion any way. :lift::lift::lift:


----------



## Chris4Pez1436114538

as for the Pro's DVDs TBH m8 i always watch them and i dont think they know JACK IMHO on some of the DVDs the way that they train and also when they refer to what its working and where sometimes they are wrong, IMHO the only reason why a lot of these guys gain as much as they do is their genetics and also their gear that they are on (AAS, Slin, HGH etc)

Again just MHO


----------



## Tall

simba said:


> bro the article is good...but when its the ultimate word.. i mean not all pros are wrong in the mags or trainin dvds...
> 
> who would listen to about building muscle... dennis wolf or some german powerlifter ?
> 
> damn, we could write a book ...lol
> 
> god bless you bulldozer


If I was purely interested in building asthetic muscle, then I'd go and see Wolf. I'd get his routine, his diet, his lifestyle and his chemical 'supplementation' details.

If I wanted to know how to get strong, I'd go and see a powerlifter. (Who would tell me to do something similar to whats in the article on the first page...)

I understand why BB'ers train the way they do - as they have to look asthetic and yet need to carry the mass which is currently demanded by the judges, and be ripped with huge amounts of striations.

Your average trainee doesn't need to do exercises to develop his striations as odds are he will never be lean enough (i.e. 3% BF...) for them to show.

I understand what both Bully and Simba are saying, and both are correct *relative* to their backgrounds and perspectives.


----------



## Ironball

I just wonderd why this guy is being modest. 800lb atg squat? don't think there are many guys who could do that. I also wonder why his squat is better than his deadlift? Because shouldn't deadlift be the heaviest exercise?


----------



## Robbie

Starting StrengthStarting Strength

Starting Strength

Starting Strength

Starting Strength

Starting Strength

Starting Strength

Starting Strength


----------



## Ironball

robbiedont said:


> Starting StrengthStarting Strength
> 
> Starting Strength
> 
> Starting Strength
> 
> Starting Strength
> 
> Starting Strength
> 
> Starting Strength
> 
> Starting Strength


terrible stammer you got there mate.


----------



## punkfloyd

Great work by JRX authoring this piece - "in an nutshell springs to mind"

Thanks to Bulldozer for the posting and Cheers to Hacks for directing me to it.

Kudos


----------



## hackskii

Well, it is simple and to the point.

Guess I have to toss that swiss ball and ballance board now.....Dammit.....


----------



## JBC Nutrition

Hi guys,

im very interested in training like a PL but cant help thinking i wont be working some body parts.

i have read every ones comments on this thread, but cant seem to find a good 3/4 day PL routine.

im very keen to try a routine that is best described as a PL routine.

any one care to let me into a 3/4 day workout plan?

I will post up photos and weekly reports

cheers


----------



## genan

great read! and I agree with most of the stuff he says. the title was a bit misleading -too sensationalist to my taste, but the info in the article was actually A+


----------



## Ollie B

i liked this for a read


----------



## paulo

that was a superb read,agree with it all


----------



## MXD

Chris4Pez said:


> TBH BB is not about the weight that you lift but how the body looks, too many ppl get wrapped up in the weights that their lifting or weights that other people are lifting but i was on a web site before (cant remember which 1) and Jay Cutler was on it and said obviously he uses high weights, but no where near as high as power lifters and does not care too, he said that too many "wanna be" bodybuilders (his words not mine) worry too much about the weights they are pushing rather than their actual physiques thats why they dont get any where!
> 
> You need to use progressive resistance in order to stimulate hypertrophy, you can do this by increasing the weight yes, but also by changing rep times or increasing the ROM.
> 
> He even advised that rather than people over weight the bar, that they use a lighter weight PROPERLY and concentrate on their body and the part that they are trying to make better (notice the word better not BIGGER).
> 
> Of course they're going to make it bigger they're body builders!
> 
> Now me personally i would say that power-lifters by far have the superior strength and also muscle mass, ehe!? however they also carry a lot more BF than BB as they dont repeat DONT care what their actual bodies look like (no disrespect to them, on the opposite i have a lot of respect for them but they dont need an excellent physique to lift the weights they want and they only care about lifting heavy weights)
> 
> So your saying Ronnie Coleman had less LBM than Andy Bolton. Pro bb's hold a hell of a lot more muscle than PL's but PL's are alot more neurally efficient.
> 
> So with this i totally back up with the fact that if beginner BB's or even intermediate BB's want to gain mass they should do the sort of training that power lifters do and then when they want to "cut" they should do higher rep ranges e.g the traditional BB training!
> 
> I say baw bags why change rep schemes when you've found what works for you.
> 
> Just my opinion any way. :lift::lift::lift:





nobbylou said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> im very interested in training like a PL but cant help thinking i wont be working some body parts.
> 
> i have read every ones comments on this thread, but cant seem to find a good 3/4 day PL routine.
> 
> im very keen to try a routine that is best described as a PL routine.
> 
> any one care to let me into a 3/4 day workout plan?
> 
> I will post up photos and weekly reports
> 
> cheers


http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/advanced-bodybuilding/28027-my-power-building-routine.html

There you go bud


----------



## fozyspilgrims

Really good read reps bulldozer


----------



## bronson

Bulldozer said:


> Look at some of the best BB of all time, franco, arnold, ronnie to name just a few, they all started out as powerlifters. They built the foundation and then made the switch to bodybuilding.
> 
> In other words train more like a powerlifter to start. Also anyone that thinks that low rep training doesnt build muscle is deluded .


This is the important bit. How do you think they built their foundation of strength? It certainly wasn't by curls and lateral raises. It's by increasing the big lifts whenever you can. That's how you add the mass. If you wanna **** about after that's up to you; you can't debate with fact.


----------



## bronson

Another point i'd like to make, people who are 'scared' of training like a power lifting because they believe the way they look isn't pleasing to the eye. oh please. bulking and cutting are terms that should be in your dictionary. Simple changes to diet and cardio can trim a ****load of fat off and leave a lean looking body. don't make excuses


----------



## Lost Soul

Yes, but you will never win a high level bodybuilding show without isolating at some point down the line

Build a base

give it years

find your weaknesses

focus on them with isolation

keep bread and butter work in

Fine to say powerlifters have made it to the BBing stage but they wouldnt have made it to the level they are with power training alone.


----------



## Ollie B

that was a good read.


----------



## -S-K-

Really interesting, cleared a lot of things up. Thanks.


----------



## cyberheater

Great read. Thanks.


----------



## brett the heart

bulldozer great read mate ive been on one body part once a week for about two years now.dont think ive grown much although my wife says fifferent i will switch to this method staying with the compound movements leaving isolation alone cheers mate


----------



## paulo

top post


----------



## iwannagetbig

great read


----------



## Blofeld

A very interesting read, entertaining too... nice one.


----------



## Cornholio

great article, I read this about 14 weeks ago and gained 45 pounds since then.

Was 135#, now 180#. Thank you.


----------



## nathanlowe

Well ive been doing 4 x 6 for 2 and a half months and have made some gains.

I was considering switching to a different routine. But after reading this i might slightly switch to 5 x 5.

With 5 x 5, is it best to use the same weight for all 5 sets and aim to increase the weight or reps ( if needed ) on a week to week basis.

Or increase the weight each set ?

Goal for size and strength


----------



## pecman

Well i have never trained like that and i havn't done bad, as long as you train hard and put in 100% your body has no reason not to grow.

Its down too indavidual choise if your stuck why not give it a go..

But me personaly will stick to what i know works, full on fuking ball busting workouts!!!


----------



## leigh76

excellent thread, i can vouch for that, i have spent the first six months of the year doing nothing but compound exercises and got good results.

BULLDOZER, would you still do exactly the same workout if you were looking to drop body fat and just adjust the diet? i am currently doing compound exercises with little rest and getting good results (circuit of death thread) and looking to change up the routine, whatdya reckon?


----------



## andy51086

great read. makes things simple for noobs like me. just what i needed to have cleared up fpr me anyways


----------



## besa

Good read.


----------



## Dizzee

Chris4Pez said:


> TBH BB is not about the weight that you lift but how the body looks, too many ppl get wrapped up in the weights that their lifting or weights that other people are lifting but i was on a web site before (cant remember which 1) and Jay Cutler was on it and said obviously he uses high weights, but no where near as high as power lifters and does not care too, he said that too many "wanna be" bodybuilders (his words not mine) worry too much about the weights they are pushing rather than their actual physiques thats why they dont get any where!
> 
> He even advised that rather than people over weight the bar, that they use a lighter weight PROPERLY and concentrate on their body and the part that they are trying to make better (notice the word better not BIGGER).
> 
> Now me personally i would say that power-lifters by far have the superior strength and also muscle mass, however they also carry a lot more BF than BB as they dont repeat DONT care what their actual bodies look like (no disrespect to them, on the opposite i have a lot of respect for them but they dont need an excellent physique to lift the weights they want and they only care about lifting heavy weights)
> 
> So with this i totally back up with the fact that if beginner BB's or even intermediate BB's want to gain mass they should do the sort of training that power lifters do and then when they want to "cut" they should do higher rep ranges e.g the traditional BB training!
> 
> Just my opinion any way. :lift::lift::lift:


So bodybuilders care about their physiques more than power lifters? Have you ever seen some of the competing BB in ifbb and nabba off season? most of them have ****ing huge guts and look like they are 8 months pregnant - they look **** without a tshirt on because of the yoyo bulk/cut diets and the pressure/emphasis on them to get big. I know of very few BB who could look good topless - let alone keep their bmi in single figures all year round.

If you have any degree of intelligence you can quite clearly draw out of this article that wether your a body builder or a power lifter, doing the basic PL lifts will give you the best gains in strength and mass period, and should always be included in your training programme regardless of your goals. For the majority of non competing BB, once you reach a good level of strength but you feel select areas of your body are lacking in aesthetics it could well be worth spending a month adding some targeted isolation exercises for the desired muscle group you wish to grow, but by all means keep those basic lifts as the foundation of your programme.

Everyone has their own thoughts and theory on how to train and get big, but ultimately you cant argue with results. However most big BB would have started out doing PL exercises and most probably still include them in their training programme. And whilst this info will be of no use to them as they already have a programme that works for their individual needs. It is aimed at the people in the gym who do endless bicep curls, chest flys and crossovers, tricep exentions and leg extentions, who yet cant even squat, deadlift or benchpress their own bodyweight or do 10 unassisted chins then moan as they just arent growing.


----------



## dantheman

Dizzee said:


> So bodybuilders care about their physiques more than power lifters? Have you ever seen some of the competing BB in ifbb and nabba off season? most of them have ****ing huge guts and look like they are 8 months pregnant - they look **** without a tshirt on because of the yoyo bulk/cut diets and the pressure/emphasis on them to get big. I know of very few BB who could look good topless - let alone keep their bmi in single figures all year round.
> 
> If you have any degree of intelligence you can quite clearly draw out of this article that wether your a body builder or a power lifter, doing the basic PL lifts will give you the best gains in strength and mass period, and should always be included in your training programme regardless of your goals. For the majority of non competing BB, once you reach a good level of strength but you feel select areas of your body are lacking in aesthetics it could well be worth spending a month adding some targeted isolation exercises for the desired muscle group you wish to grow, but by all means keep those basic lifts as the foundation of your programme.
> 
> Everyone has their own thoughts and theory on how to train and get big, but ultimately you cant argue with results. However most big BB would have started out doing PL exercises and most probably still include them in their training programme. And whilst this info will be of no use to them as they already have a programme that works for their individual needs. It is aimed at the people in the gym who do endless bicep curls, chest flys and crossovers, tricep exentions and leg extentions, who yet cant even squat, deadlift or benchpress their own bodyweight or do 10 unassisted chins then moan as they just arent growing.


 :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer:


----------



## dantheman

excellent post.


----------



## Dandy-uk

its all about compound for me i train as a pl and i am huge lol im as wide as a door way never been so big! ive done no isos on any part no curls for biceps etc

and my arms have blimped as in my pic ..


----------



## Scrappy

top thread, ive started a routine based on this

(1)

squat

pull ups

millitary press

barbell curls

(2)

deadlifts

bench

dips

rows


----------



## Fox x x

Very interesting read - loved point 13, second that motion.

This is my workout in a nutshell 

*1 * (Mon / Thurs)

Barbell squat

Deadlift

Bent over row

Lat pull down

*2* (Tues / Fri)

Flat bench press

Dumbell shoulder press

Press ups

Upright row

*Active rest day* (Wed / Sat)

Inverted row

Press ups

Ab crunches

Gym ball forward roll

Weight plate wood chop

Repeat over 6 days

*1 & 2 *

3 sets 8-10 reps

speed of lifts 2/2 bench press 2/1/2

60 seconds rest

*Active rest day *

Inverted row and press ups to fatigue

3 sets

Core sets 15 reps

60 seconds rest

Each session is completed with minimum 15 min cross trainer

or

6 x 250mtrs rowing machine (looking to hit 8 x 250mtrs)

1 rest day a week (Sun)

relax, eat plenty of veg and protein

Looking **** hot now in no time at all...even if I don't say so myself :thumb: 

Hope you find this works for you, I've not put what weights I train with simply posting this to give you the training style / method that works well for training all over


----------



## defdaz

Bulldozer said:


> I saw this on another board i use and think it just about sums it up for me.
> 
> This was originally posted by JRX on bb.com...
> 
> SNIP!


This makes me a bit sad 

When people start saying silly stuff like isolation exercises are "absolute crap" and that you should spend more than half your time in the squat rack I want to bang my head against a brick wall.

Hypertrophic muscular adaptation (and us bodybuilders are primarily concerned with hypertrophy, not CNS or aerobic improvements) occurs when a stress or stimulus is applied to the muscles in question that exceeds the body's ability to cope with. It doesn't matter to your body whether your quads were knackered with leg extensions or squats. IT DOESN'T KNOW OR CARE WHAT YOU DID. All it cares about is how badly it failed to cope and then try to first recover back to where it was and then adapt via hypertrophy.

All that matters is that the load on the muscles in question is high enough for failure to occur within a fairly short period of time so that the muscle operates at a high anaerobic level.

Kick backs or close grip bench press, it doesn't matter as long as failure is reached in the same sort of rep range - this shows that the triceps (assuming they're the muscle group that reach failure first!) have been subjected to the same load and done the same amount of work.

I won't labour the point too much but hopefully some of you will understand.

Points 1 and 5 kind of contradict each other - how can we be not working hard enough and too hard? You need to stimulate the muscle the right amount to get maximum growth and no more. Whether you do this through high or low frequency training sessions, high or low volume, high rep or low reps, not to failure or with intensity raising techniques is down to your personal preference - the only aim is to make your body want to grow via high stress anaerobic exercise.

I for one prefer high reps, low volume and advanced finishing techniques as I feel it offers maximum protection against injury whilst still taking less than an hour to train.

I have always found DOMS to be indicative to the stress I caused my muscles during a workout and is a very valuable tool to asses different diet and training strategies. Too much DOMS? Reduce stress and increase rest / diet. Too little? Increase stress (whether via more reps, lower or higher reps, intensity upping techniques, whatever).

Anyway, train hard guys! LOL!


----------



## Andrikos

simba said:


> if that article is very true than.. all powerlifters would have perfect bodies..
> 
> and huge arms.. c'mon to ba bodybuilder u have to train like one... look at shawn ray..
> 
> he would laugh at this article... if it works for u .. good luck.
> 
> simba


+1


----------



## d4ead

Dizzee said:


> So bodybuilders care about their physiques more than power lifters? Have you ever seen some of the competing BB in ifbb and nabba off season? most of them have ****ing huge guts and look like they are 8 months pregnant - they look **** without a tshirt on because of the yoyo bulk/cut diets and the pressure/emphasis on them to get big. I know of very few *BB who could look good topless - let alone keep their bmi in single figures all year round*


you wont find any bb or power lifter with a bmi in single figures. body fat % yes but there bmi would be closer to 30

don't mean to be picky its probably a typo in an otherwise great post but don't want someone new to get the wrong idea


----------



## d4ead

im in the **** till i get to a better gym cos our dead lift equipment totally out at 108kg and they don't have barbells for bench. So all i have is the useless machines. Man i miss my free weights.


----------



## launish116

bulldozer is there any chance you could pm me a contact/email so i could discuss this further? unable to pm peeps yet


----------



## aqs

Bulldozer said:


> 4) Training a bodypart once per week (and one bodypart per day) is one of the worst ways to train. It will create a rut in your training that you can't dig out of.
> 
> Training a bodypart twice per week has always been shown to be superior to once per week training of a muscle. The problem is with the influx of "Weider Principles" and other bodybuilding trash that's posted in the magazines, the masses have been stuck in the one-bodypart-per-day-per-week rut for years.
> 
> No strength athletes train a bodypart once per week. Most Olympic lifters, powerlifters, and strongman train their backs at least four times per week, and last time I checked, they weren't lacking in back width.
> 
> The simple fact is that training using an upper lower split or a push pull split or 3 full body days will provide double or triple the training stimulus than training a muscle once per week and thus, if done correctly will lead to much, much greater growth and strength gains.


now help me on this .... sticky here in beginners section and getting started say to hav each body part once per week . wut would be the best ... and if i have to do 2x each bodypart then wut would be total sets to b done in complete week > ???


----------



## Brawlerboy

I got into weights as a result of doing Olympic Freestyle Wrestling. I wanted to build myself up and get into a heavier weight class as I always did better against guys who were heavier than me rather than lighter.

As a result, I have always done basic compound exercises as highlighted in the opening article and managed to increase my weight from 68kg to 95kg in a very short space of time (approximately 2 years). I love food so didn't have any problems where diet was concerned, and I love sleep even more, so getting ample rest wasn't a problem either!

All my gains were muscle, I had good symmetry and definition all over (love squats!) and was a heck of a lot stronger as well. Also, I've tried things like 3-day splits, but find that anything other than doing a 2-day split performed twice a week, doesn't get me anywhere. Sometimes, I even do a bit of everything in a single workout and again, sticking to the basic compound exercises, I can get through it all in about 50 minutes.

Anyway, the point I'm trying to make is to keep things simple, stop over-training (and undertraining) at the same time, avoid machines and isolation exercises (how can you shape something that's not there?), and don't copy the routines of any of your bodybuilding heros either.

Finally, too many guys in gyms really don't have a clue about what to do. Their technique is awful, they do too many exercises, they try to lift far too much weight, and their diet is limited to one protein drink afterwards. It's a bit like going to live in France and expecting to survive without knowing the language or anything about the culture either - crazy! At the end of the day, some of the best physiques have belonged to wrestlers, power-lifters and such like, and one of my mates who's a semi-pro footballer, has the most amazing muscular physique and he's never trained simply to bodybuild either! So, if you're a newbie just starting out, stick to the basics, don't do too much (or too little) and do an associated sport (wrestling is both aerobic and anaerobic) as well.

P.S.

Powerlifting is a fab foundation for bodybuilding and I had to do a lot of that in my early wrestling career.


----------



## Guest

Brawlerboy said:


> I got into weights as a result of doing Olympic Freestyle Wrestling. I wanted to build myself up and get into a heavier weight class as I always did better against guys who were heavier than me rather than lighter.
> 
> As a result, I have always done basic compound exercises as highlighted in the opening article and managed to increase my weight from 68kg to 95kg in a very short space of time (approximately 2 years). I love food so didn't have any problems where diet was concerned, and I love sleep even more, so getting ample rest wasn't a problem either!
> 
> All my gains were muscle, I had good symmetry and definition all over (love squats!) and was a heck of a lot stronger as well. Also, I've tried things like 3-day splits, but find that anything other than doing a 2-day split performed twice a week, doesn't get me anywhere. Sometimes, I even do a bit of everything in a single workout and again, sticking to the basic compound exercises, I can get through it all in about 50 minutes.
> 
> Anyway, the point I'm trying to make is to keep things simple, stop over-training (and undertraining) at the same time, avoid machines and isolation exercises (how can you shape something that's not there?), and don't copy the routines of any of your bodybuilding heros either.
> 
> Finally, too many guys in gyms really don't have a clue about what to do. Their technique is awful, they do too many exercises, they try to lift far too much weight, and their diet is limited to one protein drink afterwards. It's a bit like going to live in France and expecting to survive without knowing the language or anything about the culture either - crazy! At the end of the day, some of the best physiques have belonged to wrestlers, power-lifters and such like, and one of my mates who's a semi-pro footballer, has the most amazing muscular physique and he's never trained simply to bodybuild either! So, if you're a newbie just starting out, stick to the basics, don't do too much (or too little) and do an associated sport (wrestling is both aerobic and anaerobic) as well.
> 
> P.S.
> 
> Powerlifting is a fab foundation for bodybuilding and I had to do a lot of that in my early wrestling career.


Yeah and i went from 70-90kg in 1 year training 6 days per week twice per day, no one program suits every one.


----------



## mrmasive

Was there any additional info to back-up point 6?


----------



## Dantreadz85

this basically says everything opposite to say tiny toms advice lol , unless im reading it wrong . i dunno what to do now to be honest lol


----------



## JRX

Glad my quoted posts on another forum are of some assistance!


----------



## Dezw

You have to simply find out what works for you, everybody is different.

Trial and error.


----------



## MillionG

Right then, I've decided to put this to the test, goin to start training a bit more like a powerlifter, obviously the focus will be bench, full squat, deads, shoulder press (probably arnie press).

5x5 to start.

I don't want to look anything like a powerlifter though, so perhaps some iso's in there too? Just something for my arms, skullcrushers and db curls probably best.

Anyone fancy putting together a little routine for me with this brief?

Take into account that I will be wanting to train at least 6 days a week.

I will be starting this in January when I get back to uni and recording it in my journal.

Let's see if this powerlifter business really works.


----------



## martin brown

Dezw said:


> You have to simply find out what works for you, everybody is different.
> 
> Trial and error.


Really? I don't get this logic - we're all different?

Last time I checked we're almost all exactly the same.

The only people who tell you otherwise are the ones selling you either a) over-priced supplements or B) fancy workout routines.

JRX's comments are all spot on IMO. Do this for 3-5yrs then you'll have a good base and knowledge about training to then specialise into something.

M


----------



## griffo13

great read


----------



## The_Hammers

Bulldozer can you make me a decet workout for Monday,Weds and Friday with sets reps etc. im forever doing my upper body and always try to get help with a routine but when i ask for it ends up one person helping then others posting different and arguing whos routine is better lol then im stuck doing different things all the time. Tuesday and thurday's i do a light workout. my abs, do a few wrist curls and calve raises and will continue to do this. "I want to get big but mostly want my arms to be the biggest part with ripped abs" as i know you got to work from the bottom (legs) to get bigger up top, cheers


----------



## lordgeorge

this is what i've been after for ages no BS advice

cant thank you enough :beer:


----------



## Guest

This is a damn good article. Thanks for this!

Nik


----------



## ed220

Fanastic article :thumb:


----------



## R11cky

so wits the moral of the story lol.. whers the workout ?


----------



## Ken Hutchinson

Just read the artical, and i do agree with it if you want to get big and strong, but you wont end up looking as good, than if you did a bodybuilding program, it all depends on if you want to be big and strong or pleasing on the eye, so to speak, just because you can squat, bench, deadlift a lot of weight does not mean you will have a good looking body, you might end up all blocky and thick. As they say theres more than one way to skin a cat, having said all that i do know what you are getting at., build you foundation and then refine what you have built.


----------



## craftybutcher

R11cky said:


> so wits the moral of the story lol.. whers the workout ?


Did you read it?



> 3) And for that matter, EVERYONE'S program should be centred around these exercises: Full Squat, Deadlifts (or cleans or both), heavy barbell rows, bench press, and Standing Barbell Military Push Presses. Add pull ups, barbell curls, dips, heavy abdominal work, and some core work (back extensions, reverse hypers, or glute hams) and that should make up 95-100% of the total number of exercises you do. The most effective training is simple and hard.


----------



## R11cky

flanagan said:


> Did you read it?


yeah i did mate but was hoping for a structured workout routine based on this idiology.


----------



## craftybutcher

Fair enough the thing with compounds is it is that simple.

For example mine

A

Squat

Bench

Dead

Dips

B

Squat

Mil Press

BB Row

Pulls/Chins

Alternated ABA next week BAB and so on.

Google madcow 5x5 and stronglifts 5x5


----------



## 1Tonne

I love this article.


----------



## R11cky

flanagan said:


> Fair enough the thing with compounds is it is that simple.
> 
> For example mine
> 
> A
> 
> Squat
> 
> Bench
> 
> Dead
> 
> Dips
> 
> B
> 
> Squat
> 
> Mil Press
> 
> BB Row
> 
> Pulls/Chins
> 
> Alternated ABA next week BAB and so on.
> 
> Google madcow 5x5 and stronglifts 5x5


THANKS MATE


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## rodrigo

looks like its back too basics and thats no BS:thumb:


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## Tim Shortland

im a sixteen year old lad and im trying to get big in the gym  and ive just read this before im about to go out, some good stuff in there. cheers buddy


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## Mikazagreat

rodrigo said:


> looks like its back too basics and thats no BS:thumb:


Exactly what i thought.


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## fishro

back to basics for me too .. just starting a 2 day a week routine .

bench press 5x5

seated ohp 5x5

barbell rows 5x5

squats 5x5

dead lifts 5 x5

shrugs 5 x 5

only thing im changing on the 2nd day is im doing incline bench 5 x5

jesus no arms or isolations as such ...


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## mazzucazze

fishro said:


> back to basics for me too .. just starting a 2 day a week routine .
> 
> bench press 5x5
> 
> seated ohp 5x5
> 
> barbell rows 5x5
> 
> squats 5x5
> 
> dead lifts 5 x5
> 
> shrugs 5 x 5
> 
> only thing im changing on the 2nd day is im doing incline bench 5 x5
> 
> jesus no arms or isolations as such ...


Squat, barbell row and deadlifts all on the same day?

I think it might be too much for your lower back...


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## Matt 1

Bulldozer said:


> I saw this on another board i use and think it just about sums it up for me.
> 
> Good read
> 
> This was originally posted by JRX on bb.com...
> 
> Read this:
> 
> On the Anabolic Mind's forums, a powerlifters take on getting big and why some people who are always over analysing things never grow
> 
> Virtually everything you've ever read from a bodybuilding magazine is heresy and should be regarded as not worth the paper it was printed on. The programs written by the so called "superstars" of the bodybuilding world were actually ghost written by some guy in a cubicle who doesn't know a thing about proper training, programming, exercise phys, or periodization. If, by chance the program was actually written by the "superstar" you can rest easy as long as you are one of the most genetically gifted people in history AND you are on such a ridiculous amount of drugs that you have to tan to hide the yellowing of your skin due to liver failure.
> 
> The fact is that big, strong guys are a dime a dozen, and many of them get that way in spite of their training knowledge than because of it.
> 
> I know what I'm talking about in the world of training not because I'm the biggest or the strongest (although, at 270lbs and an 800 squat, 600 bench, and 700 deadlift I can hold my own), and not because I know the most about exercise phys (though I can hold my own there too), but because I have trained with and become friends with best. I have trained at Westside Barbell Club, with the Metal Militia, talk on a continual basis with the best strength coaches in the nation and world-wide, and the training methods I prescribe have been tested in the gym on literally hundreds and hundreds of regular, everyday athletes and shown to work. Period.
> 
> So here's what I can stand before you today and say with great conviction what I know to be true about training:
> 
> 1) I believe in general that the majority of people don't work hard enough. If there's one thing we can learn from the old Eastern Bloc countries, it's that they worked harder than us, and that primarily, is why they always beat us in the Olympics. Work hard in the gym (even if your program sucks) and you will be rewarded.
> 
> 2) I also believe that most people don't put near enough emphasis on lower body and core work. The key to getting big is full squats and deadlifts. If you are looking at your routine and you see that you are training upper body 3 or 4 days per week and lower body once, you have a serious problem. The majority of athletes should live and die in the squat rack.
> 
> 3) And for that matter, EVERYONE'S program should be centred around these exercises: Full Squat, Deadlifts (or cleans or both), heavy barbell rows, bench press, and Standing Barbell Military Push Presses. Add pull ups, barbell curls, dips, heavy abdominal work, and some core work (back extensions, reverse hypers, or glute hams) and that should make up 95-100% of the total number of exercises you do. The most effective training is simple and hard.
> 
> 4) Training a bodypart once per week (and one bodypart per day) is one of the worst ways to train. It will create a rut in your training that you can't dig out of.
> 
> Training a bodypart twice per week has always been shown to be superior to once per week training of a muscle. The problem is with the influx of "Weider Principles" and other bodybuilding trash that's posted in the magazines, the masses have been stuck in the one-bodypart-per-day-per-week rut for years.
> 
> No strength athletes train a bodypart once per week. Most Olympic lifters, powerlifters, and strongman train their backs at least four times per week, and last time I checked, they weren't lacking in back width.
> 
> The simple fact is that training using an upper lower split or a push pull split or 3 full body days will provide double or triple the training stimulus than training a muscle once per week and thus, if done correctly will lead to much, much greater growth and strength gains.
> 
> 5) Training to near muscular failure has shown to induce identical hypertrophy gains than training to all out muscular failure. The reason you guys can't train a muscle more than once per week is because you are destroying it when you do train it. Learn to hit or miss that last rep and then call it done. Don't do ridiculous amounts of forced reps, negatives, etc. until you literally can't move the muscle. Take it to near failure and then your muscles will recover enough so that you can train them again in 3-4 days.
> 
> Understand that there is a huge difference in training to near failure and not training hard. I would never advocate to not train hard. Actually, quite the opposite - try to squat for 5 sets of 5 reps using only 10lbs less than your five rep max. That's absolutely brutal. But when you get done, don't go to the leg press machine and keep pounding out sets and stripping off weight until you literal can't do a single leg press with only the sled. That's absurd, and you can't recover from it in 3 days.
> 
> 6) Squat at least below parallel every time. Are you kidding me? I can't believe some people are still quarter squatting and saying that riding a squat all the way to the ground is bad for your knees. Learn the facts. Stopping at or above parallel puts much more strain on your knees than going ass to grass. Plus going all the way down in an Olympic style back squat will put more mass on you than any other exercise. Period.
> 
> 7) Isolation exercises are absolute crap. 90% of your routine should be made up of full squats, deadlifts or cleans, bench press, standing overhead press, heavy barbell rows, pull-ups, dips, and core work (abs, glute ham raises, back extensions, reverse hypers). Isolation exercises and machines are the worst thing that ever happened to the weight training world.
> 
> 8) Quit using pyramid rep schemes like 10,8,6,4,2 - Instead, your time would be better served doing boring (but effective) gut busting sets of 5x5 or 4x8-10 using the SAME WEIGHT for each set. They WILL produce better results than the pyramid scheme. BTW, check your ego at the door when you do these.
> 
> 9) I'll quote my good friend, Glenn Pendlay (the best S&C coach in the nation) for the next one:
> 
> "Most athletes do too many exercises. Many times they look over other peoples programs like they are at a buffet. They pick a little of this and a little of that from a variety of programs, and end up with something useless. People think you have to train each muscle with a different specific exercise. Many guys in college athletics would do better if they would just randomly slash off half of what they are doing, and then work twice as hard on the half that is left."
> 
> 10) Another of my favourites from Glenn:
> 
> "im so sick and tired of hearing people who just started training who say they cant gain weight. jeez I've heard this crap so often. every day it seems i have some stupid kid ask me about how to gain weight... in restaurants, at the grocery store, you name it. for some reason there seems to be a sign on my back or something. usually i know its worthless to talk to them, sometimes i actually waste my time. talked to a kid at the golden corral a couple of days ago. took almost an hour when i should have been enjoying my all you can eat steak night... 3 days later i see him in the gym when i just happened to go in to talk to a friend who i knew was there... kid was there doing preacher curls. said hi to me, then said well i talked to my friend about what you said and he said he tried it once and over trained so i decided to do this thing i read about... on the other hand about 6 months ago i talked to this 6' tall, 150lb kid who wanted to know about getting stronger. kid had done well in judo, won some titles, also after that had done cycling, turned pro then quit a year later, quite a good road racer. he actually did what i told him i guess, about 3 months after i saw him the first time i saw hiim again, he weighed about 185... he wanted to try Olympic weightlifting so i let him train with the team i coach. now hes weighing 204 and clean and jerking about 300lbs, 54lbs gained in 6 months. no drugs. Olympic squat from 175lbs to 385lbs, front squat from 150lbs to 330lbs. hell be a good lifter, has a good work ethic. needs to be 240 and fairly lean, will compete eventually in the 231 pound class. will take about another 12-15 months i suppose. why is a kid like this the exception and not the rule? why will kids do the same old thing for years in the absence of results, and not try anything new? what the hell is wrong with people. there is a gym in town, i know the owner so i go and talk to him sometimes, there are all these kids in there, skinny little ****s, doing curls. they never progress, you see the same faces one year to the next, same bodies too."
> 
> 11) Ultra slow reps or TUT is, for the most part completely worthless. Will it work? Yes. But the total amount of work that one can complete is much lower when utilizing slow reps. Just go natural. Don't try to be super fast, and bouncy, and don't try to go ultra slow. Just do it naturally and controlled.
> 
> 12) "The burn", "the pump" and "the feel" have nothing to do with the effectiveness of an exercise. Yes, even I have been caught on upper body days looking at myself in the mirror when I'm all blown up, but that has nothing to do with the effectiveness of the last exercise. You do hammer strength bench presses and flyes for sets of 20 and I'll do heavy barbell bench presses and deep dips. One of us will "feel the pump" more and the other one will grow.
> 
> 13) Likewise, delayed onset muscle soreness (DOMS) also gives no clue as to the effectiveness of a workout. It just means *A) you have a ton of microtrauma in a muscle *or a lot of lactic acid waste products. *Congratulations. *
> 
> 14) "Core stability training" is not done on a swiss ball or a stability board. It's done by pulling heavy deadlifts, standing overhead presses, full squats, heavy barbell rows, heavy farmer's walks, Atlas stones, tire flipping, reverse hypers, heavy back extensions, glute ham raises, and heavy abdominal work.
> 
> 15) A good gym has nothing to do with how nice the machines are or if they have a pool or tanning beds or even if it's air conditioned. A good gym smells like a mix of body odour and liniment and supplies their members with a big box of chalk.
> 
> Kelly Baggett, one of the best strength coaches his take as well on how to get bigger
> 
> This is not to attack anyone but I'd be willing to bet a lot more natural muscle has been built using the recommendations of Matt and Glenn over the years then all the complicated bodybuilding schemes out there. The problem with bodybuilders is they try to overcomplicate everything and lose site of the big picture.....that's making strength gains in the gym on basic movements along with scale weight increases on a week to week basis. Now you can complicate that as much as you want but those are the only 2 things it takes to get big. It doesn't take any sort have fancy specialized training routines and special diets. If more people would spend more time in dark stinky ass gyms worrying about putting weight on the very basic movements and spend more time eating in high volume (note the golden corral reference) with an emphasis on gaining scale weight then a lot more muscle would be built.
> 
> For every bodybuilder who has success building a physique naturally I'll show you at least 20 who don't get jack **** in the way of results because they sit around with their thumb up their butt worrying about this and worrying about that and basing everything off of their "pump"...worrying about the "feel" of this exercise and trying to trash the muscle every workout without any regards to periodization and failing to realize that if they would've just strived to put 50 lbs on their squat and 15 lbs on the scale their problems would be taken care of......They go starving themselves to death on boiled chicken and broccoli while spending $300 per month in supplements thinking they can get "bigger" and "smaller" at the same time spending 5 years wasting time not gaining 10 lbs of scale weight all while looking at strength athletes with their nose up in the air when what they don't realize is that fat powerlifter they like to make fun of has actually put on 50 lbs of muscle in the last year and he could spend 3 months stripping that fat off and hand you your ass and balls in a bodybuilding contest simply because he trained very simple, focused on strength gains and most importantly wasn't afraid to sit down at the dinner table and do some serious eating.
> 
> Give me 2 twin brothers one who hangs around with and reads bodybuilding related info for a year and another who hangs around with and trains at a powerlifting gym both without steroids and after that year is over let's see which one builds more muscle. Nine times out of 10 I'll take the powerlifter.
> 
> Having said that a strength athletes routine may not be 100% optimal for a bodybuilder but there are a lot of things people could learn from strength trainers.


I'm not sure I agree with this. Isn't it these tears which repair back stronger, denser - the WHOLE purpose of going to the gym..?

Apart from that one dodgy statement (I could be wrong) very good read, its what I do pretty much..


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## Barry Seal

Great read, i was just starting to question my full body routine 3x week, deads,squats,bench,rows,mil press, thought i may be over training but this has put my mind at rest and i think i will continue as i am. I suppose if it aint broke, dont fix it.

BS


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## Barry Seal

mazzucazze said:


> Squat, barbell row and deadlifts all on the same day?
> 
> I think it might be too much for your lower back...


I do full body 3x week, mon,wed, fri, squat, deads, bench, bar row, mil press

Mon 3x8

Wed 3x10

Fri 3x12

If i hit targets each day the reps increase and if i hit 3x12 on Fri then next Mon go back to 3x8 but with a weight increase and start cycle again.

I also have a prolapsed disc in my back and this routine has done nothing but good for it, i seem to get far fewer probs with it as long as form is good.

BS


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## Barry Seal

The_Hammers said:


> Bulldozer can you make me a decet workout for Monday,Weds and Friday with sets reps etc. im forever doing my upper body and always try to get help with a routine but when i ask for it ends up one person helping then others posting different and arguing whos routine is better lol then im stuck doing different things all the time. Tuesday and thurday's i do a light workout. my abs, do a few wrist curls and calve raises and will continue to do this. "I want to get big but mostly want my arms to be the biggest part with ripped abs" as i know you got to work from the bottom (legs) to get bigger up top, cheers


Try my routine in the previous post

BS


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## thetong6969

the only way i got from 7 to 12 stone was a guy took me under my wing and taught me to powerlift

out of 5 comps i came 1st in 2 regionals 10 years ago,since then i'm diabetic and happy i can get in a gym and train

now my basics revolve round squats bench etc the heavy basics and i am going to start training 3 times a week squat bench deads as i did years ago and eat, see what i can do

i'm about 75k and will be happy if i can get to 85k insulin and body willing but thats the way to go


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## Geordie1436114498

Good post, makes sense


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## jakej

tried and tested information, fits in with my own experience too. Great post


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## Moonbeam

Awesome read fairplay. Alot of peeps can take a few points from this. Major useful.


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## DutchTony

A great read!


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## huge monguss

Its about time i changed my routine anyway


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## Robbie789

Might print this off for all the pretty boys at the gym that spend more time looking in the mirror than hitting the weights.

Great read, makes me feel a lot more confident about stronglifts now, build muscle, then sculpt it.


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## doubletrouble

Bulldozer said:


> I saw this on another board i use and think it just about sums it up for me.
> 
> Good read


Thanks a lot, a really useful read.

You can't really blame newbies too much though, I mean I myself have spent hours reading through these forums/other forums/online articles/studies and the amount of contradictions between them are all frightening, and it's very confusing trying to decide and focus on something in particular because of this with all the different variables involved.

At the moment I'm trying to tackle a horrible plateau that I feel I've tried absolutely everything to overcome, without going into too much detail though I feel its only maybe my training program that can be letting me down, I've always trained 4/5 times a week with high weight/low rep style training in splits (recently only been doing the power/muscle/burn 5 day split which although seems very popular goes against most of the things you say so I think I'm going to scrap it and try something else)

Now, I'm thinking I've always been over-training a bit too much, and using some of the points in your post would you say this is a reasonable plan? Do you see any gaping holes here? Just tried to include nearly every big compound, whilst keeping workout length to around 40 mins or so, as well as having adequate rest.

Also how many carbs/day would you reccomend for someone weighing 170 pounds on something like this?

Day 1:

Squat - 5x5

Bench Press - 5x5

Pull Ups (weighted) - 5x5

Day 2:

Dead-lift - 5x5

Shoulder Press - 5x5

Chin Ups (Weighted) - 5x5

Day 3

Rest

Day 4

Leg Press - 5x5

Dips (Weighted) - 5x5

Clean and Press - 5x5

Day 5

Barbell Rows - 5x5

Romanian Deadlift - 5x5

Incline Bench Press - 5x5

Day 6

Rest

Day 7

Rest


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## Smitch

People don't like doing squats, dips, deads, pull ups, heavy OHP, GHR's etc because they're difficult.


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## Maza1987

Man, pleased to have read this. Just started out and, yes, I had the muscle group routine. Reading around, I've already learnt it's about getting the most bang for your buck with work out days. And that means multi-joint compound exercises. Oh, and eating a lot. Not worried if my abs disappear any more--I can always cut when I hit my goal.


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## rsd147

So would you say the routines such As the 'Rippetoe starting strength' is a good workout when it comes to routines?


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## rsd147

rsd147 said:


> So would you say the routines such As the 'Rippetoe starting strength' is a good workout when it comes to routines?


bump


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## rsd147

rsd147 said:


> bump


Bump?


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## ed220

rsd147 said:


> So would you say the routines such As the 'Rippetoe starting strength' is a good workout when it comes to routines?


Ripptoes starting strength is a great routine, especially if you are stating out. Many people have done it and made great gains.


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## rsd147

I have been doing it seriously for about 2 years and came across this article. Really good read and thought the ripptoe workout would be good in terms of this article? Unless anyone knows of a good workout that works along side this?


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## BoxerJay

Good read, thanks 

Edit - Nice bump -_-


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## rsd147

ed220 said:


> Ripptoes starting strength is a great routine, especially if you are stating out. Many people have done it and made great gains.


I have been doing it seriously for about 2 years and came across this article. Really good read and thought the ripptoe workout would be good in terms of this article? Unless anyone knows of a good workout that works along side this?


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## ed220

rsd147 said:


> I have been doing it seriously for about 2 years and came across this article. Really good read and thought the ripptoe workout would be good in terms of this article? Unless anyone knows of a good workout that works along side this?


I dont know exactly what you mean when you ask if there is a good workout that 'works along side this'. But yes, Ripptoes would be in agreement with this article. Basically any workout that focuses on the main compound movements (and getting progressivly stronger on them while eating enough food) would be beneficial.


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## pinkpen

The human body is designed for constant activity. Astronauts who spend time in a weightless environment (where their bodies don't need to work against gravity) quickly show signs of weakened muscles, high blood pressure and fragile bones - a striking illustration of how inactivity weakens the body. that's why exercise is very important.


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## Maza1987

Just wanted to bump this.

I started seriously 2 months ago and based my routine around the principles espoused in the OP. And it is working well.

Essentially, stick to the 5 major compound exercises:

Deadlift

Squat

Bench Press

Standing Overhead Press

BB Row

And you cannot go wrong.

Also ensure you have ancillary work such as pull ups,dips and abs and you're set.


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## ladcrooks

You mentioned frequency and I beg to differ :bounce:

So if 3 times was good enough years ago, and now its 2 times a week. Great! What you gonna do when training each part twice fails ? You can only do less not more, so various exercises and sets dwindle? Cos you are not growing!

Can only work till the time where you will not recover. If twice a week worked then we would be swamped with monsters, but it doesn't, so you have most of the bodybuilding world chasing their tails all the time going back from one format to the other ha!

Please don't take this the wrong way - there are many a pic on here that shows why some workouts don't work for some. Looking ripped and 12 stone at that is not someone I am going to take advice from!


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## FlexVanity

smashing post! :thumbup1:


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## PurpleOnes

Really great post! :thumb:

I'm currently doing a 5x5 type of routine and really enjoy doing it.

I was doing a lot isolation exercises and too many reps and set which resulted only in burning out.


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## BIG.G

Excellent post. My strengths through the roof training this way the last eight weeks. Constantly breaking pb's


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## IronAddict400

ROFL to those who thinks powerlifters dont take ****load of drugs...LOFL.. !!!! :lol: :lol:


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## mr small

IronAddict400 said:


> ROFL to those who thinks powerlifters dont take ****load of drugs...LOFL.. !!!! :lol: :lol:


Irrespective what YOUR believe there are some people out there who are naturally strong , I'm not saying that drugs don't exist in powerlifting that would just be stupid but do you honestly believe that you just take some steroids and you are all of a sudden a top power lifter lol that's worse ffs


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## IronAddict400

mr small said:


> Irrespective what YOUR believe there are some people out there who are naturally strong , I'm not saying that drugs don't exist in powerlifting that would just be stupid but do you honestly believe that you just take some steroids and you are all of a sudden a top power lifter lol that's worse ffs


ROFL...who is saying abt taking drug and becoming top powerlifter overnight?? read post carefully bro.. i said powerlifter do take drugs..yeahy there are some lifters who are naturally strong but drugs involved??LOL Hell lot of drugs involed bro.,.. from next time try to read post carefully..


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## platyphylla

Why have i just seen this? Now it makes sense why i see 'bodybuilders' making ridiculously slow progress.


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## 00alawre

The only point in there that truly matters is this:



> 1) I believe in general that *the majority of people don't work hard enough*. If there's one thing we can learn from the old Eastern Bloc countries, it's that they worked harder than us, and that primarily, is why they always beat us in the Olympics. *Work hard in the gym (even if your program sucks) and you will be rewarded.*


Don't over think things, train your whole body, hard.


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