# Oats Post Workout?



## JBC Nutrition (Sep 19, 2007)

I normally use Vitargo post workout but have just run out. I have started using Fine oats. Although this is a much cheaper alternative do you think it is suitable to take Post workout?

I know that the Vitargo is a fast acting Carb and the Oats are much slower but have read a few articles saying that Oats Post workout is just as effective.

what are your views?

Thanks in advance :thumb:


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## sizar (Nov 13, 2008)

I wouldn't recommend oats post workout.


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## JBC Nutrition (Sep 19, 2007)

sizar said:


> I wouldn't recommend oats post workout.


Any reason why?


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## Rossy Balboa (Nov 6, 2008)

Never heard of oats post workout,usually a fast acting carb such as malto/dextrose but may be wrong


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## BigDom86 (Jul 27, 2008)

well different ppl say different things. some say any carb source will spike insulin and any carbs will be digested fast enough, others say you need simple carbs like malto or dextrose pwo.

personally i use malto when i have it, if not ill use oats. not sure if i notice much difference


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## JBC Nutrition (Sep 19, 2007)

BigDom86 said:


> well different ppl say different things. some say any carb source will spike insulin and any carbs will be digested fast enough, others say you need simple carbs like malto or dextrose pwo.
> 
> personally i use malto when i have it, if not ill use oats. not sure if i notice much difference


My thoughts exactly, this is what I have heard. I have been told that there isnt much difference between vitargo and waxy.

so thought I would give Oats a go.


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## neildo (Oct 9, 2008)

Definitely simple carbs to get into the blood stream quickest due to their much higher GI. It's the higher GI and the fact that they are rapidly digested and absorbed that causes the spike in insulin levels in the blood


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## JBC Nutrition (Sep 19, 2007)

So if that is the case, then I could use my Oats during the day with a Whey protein and not cause an insulin spike?

to make sure I get enough carbs in during the day


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

nobbylou said:


> So if that is the case, then I could use my Oats during the day with a Whey protein and not cause an insulin spike?
> 
> to make sure I get enough carbs in during the day


Oats are slower digesting than whey so, if taken at the same time, will slightly slow the release of amino acids from whey into the bloodstream.

The thing with insulin and carbs is that any kind of carb will cause pretty much the same level of insulin to be excreted as any other carb, fast or slow. The difference is that slow release/lower GI carbs spread the insulin over time without a spike whereas fast carbs do the opposite.

Its these spikes that if repeated time and time again gradually decrease insulin receptor efficiency and increase the need for more insulin... and eventually help you get fat with messed up hormones.

In the post workout condition most people take carbs to replace lost glycogen burned as fuel during the workout. Restoring glycogen doesn't do much for the growth process but it restores energy levels more quickly and helps you feel refreshed sooner. Any insulin spike at this time isn't going to contribute to messing up your hormones though as PWO the body is in a very different state to how it is at rest.

The insulin also helps activate various anabolic processes at this time so carbs, particularly fast carbs, aren't a bad idea and make a better choice than slow carbs at this time. Slow carbs aren't exactly a disaster though


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## neildo (Oct 9, 2008)

Very good post above. I would just go fast pwo even if it's just a banana (as long as properly ripe!) with your whey (best isolate pwo mind!) and oats any other time of day (i usually have with brekkie)...


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

This is a very old debate topic..

Here goes.

They are ok, post workout you are insulin sensitive anyway, so what ever carb you use will be fine.

Whey can spike insulin by itself, that and oats will work just fine.

I dont like the idea myself of simple sugars, they are nutritionally void with the exception for energy.

It is the fiber in the oats that prolong the digestion lowering the GI, but with whey in there and the absense of fats, it will be just fine, and it wont make any diffrence what so ever.

Oats are healthier than simple sugars anyway.


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## JBC Nutrition (Sep 19, 2007)

hackskii said:


> This is a very old debate topic..
> 
> Here goes.
> 
> ...


Cheers for that Scott. will give it a go. :thumb:


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

hackskii said:


> This is a very old debate topic..
> 
> Here goes.
> 
> ...


I do know what you are saying here hackskii - I think that taking (high GI) post workout carbs isn't a necessary thing but it can make a positive difference... under certain conditions.

If training in a way that takes you into lactate burning and is heavily depleting of glycogen you can be left post workout with very low liver glycogen... even if muscle glycogen levels are still more than half full. This is because when you work a muscle in the primary glycogen burning zone it takes the glycogen both from the muscle itself (not other muscles) and the liver.

This means something like a legs workout might only deplete the calves, hams & quads etc by say 25% each but the combination of all muscles taking glycogen also from the liver can leave the liver 60-70% empty.

it's when you hit low liver glycogen (around 30%) that you feel tired, heavy, and lethargic. In this circumstance the the quicker you replete this glycogen the quicker you feel better.

I do think however that most claims for how much fast carbs to take PWO are totally OTT - 15-20g should do enough to bump liver glycogen up, with the PWO meal dealing with the rest. Slow carbs of course will also help, just more slowly. Even in the absence of carbs in a protein only PWO protocol liver glycogen will slowly replete - it will just convert protein.

As for the body being more insulin sensitive post workout, i think there's a very obvious reason - the body WANTS an insulin effect to shuttle nutrients. Thats why all the GLUT4 glucose transporters move to the edge of the cell - they are looking for glucose.

The best thing to take if you ask me is not malto or dex but some fruit - a handfull of mixed berries or a banana. Fast carbs, glucose and fructose (fructose being better to replenish liver glycogen) and also vitamins and minerals


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## Lil D (Apr 6, 2009)

I agree with Hackskii and Dt whole heartedly , I remember doing alot of googling on this topic and what they say is true. Its never ideal to take in nutrient void food sources so why should pwo be any different.

I like the idea of some oats and whey or else a banana and a whey shake , heck maybe even oats and a banana with whey.

Maybe you can justify the sugars if you're training twice a day or work during lunch hours or workout before a intense physical job then the quicker the recovery the better but any otherway go for fruit or oats in my opinion.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Dtlv74 said:


> I think that taking (high GI) post workout carbs isn't a necessary thing but it can make a positive difference... under certain conditions.


Ok, can you give me an example of certain conditions?

Let's please remember that this may be natty competitors.



Dtlv74 said:


> If training in a way that takes you into lactate burning and is heavily depleting of glycogen you can be left post workout with very low liver glycogen... even if muscle glycogen levels are still more than half full. This is because when you work a muscle in the primary glycogen burning zone it takes the glycogen both from the muscle itself (not other muscles) and the liver.


I understand but in the presence of insulin, GH production post workout is compromised. Fructose replenishes liver glycogen. The body only stores like 70 grams of liver glycogen anyway, so it is muscle glycogen that we want to replenish.



Dtlv74 said:


> it's when you hit low liver glycogen (around 30%) that you feel tired, heavy, and lethargic. In this circumstance the the quicker you replete this glycogen the quicker you feel better.


But again a fruit will fill liver glycogen stores quite well, and for instance any sugar will satisfy the lethargy rather quickly. Eating oats and whey or whey isolate, you wont suffer hypo conditions in regards to blood sugars.



Dtlv74 said:


> I do think however that most claims for how much fast carbs to take PWO are totally OTT - 15-20g should do enough to bump liver glycogen up, with the PWO meal dealing with the rest. Slow carbs of course will also help, just more slowly. Even in the absence of carbs in a protein only PWO protocol liver glycogen will slowly replete - it will just convert protein.


Protein is the worst energy substrate and the last offer I would suggest for conversion to an energy substrate.

Let the macro's help the replenishment of what they do, all have a job, all do what they do.



Dtlv74 said:


> As for the body being more insulin sensitive post workout, i think there's a very obvious reason - the body WANTS an insulin effect to shuttle nutrients. Thats why all the GLUT4 glucose transporters move to the edge of the cell - they are looking for glucose.


Yes this is true, but oats, and whey will satisfy the requirement for glucose to the body.



Dtlv74 said:


> The best thing to take if you ask me is not malto or dex but some fruit - a handfull of mixed berries or a banana. Fast carbs, glucose and fructose (fructose being better to replenish liver glycogen) and also vitamins and minerals


This will be limited for glycogen replenishment for muscle. Fruits will be predominantly for the liver.

Question, would you rather have muscle glycogen stores replenished or liver glycogen replinished?

You are talking about 70 grams of energy from the liver and hundreds of grams of grams from the muscle.


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## iron head case (Jul 2, 2008)

2 words PRO-RECOVER


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## Ken Hutchinson (May 29, 2009)

Years ago all i took after my workout was isolate on it's own or isolate plus a banana, and i was a lot leaner then than i am now taking dextrose with my isolate so i have decided to drop the dextrose and all i have been having after my training now is isolate on it's own,i dont know if my age has anything to do with the increase in fat i'm 46, but i dont care what all the mags and sites say about fast acting carbs post workout in the real world i know what works for me, dont just read it and belive it try things out for yourself.


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## ParaManiac (Mar 20, 2007)

iron head case said:


> 2 words PRO-RECOVER


2 more IS OVERPRICED


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## hilly (Jan 19, 2008)

After reading something datbru wrote on promuscle i have been doing some research and found that protein synthesis slows down to the point it may stop when glycogen stores are replenished.

If this is the case then it doesnt make sense having any carbs pwo just protein/bcaa/glutamine etc for a set/certain amount of time pwo maybe with some good fats as this will prolong the period of protein syntheses created during training . obviously glycogen levels do need to be replenished so a good carb/protein meal does need to be taken in at some point but from my research i think an immediate pwo shake such as pro recover or one we make ourselves could actually do more harm than good.

as hacksii said the workout itself creates an insulin spike to need to high gi carbs or if my research is correct any for that matter.

any1 with any thoughts into this as im just researching it myself.


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## JBC Nutrition (Sep 19, 2007)

iron head case said:


> 2 words PRO-RECOVER


I stock this but like to use my own protein as its much higher in g/per serving. the pro recover only offers something like 23g protein.

As Hilly said, might be worth just getting Protein and Glutamine into me Post workout and getting my oats with another protein shake half hour later.

what are your thoughts on that?


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## hilly (Jan 19, 2008)

its certainly something to look into mate but its very against the grain which i supose is why i like it lol haha im still researching tho


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

hackskii said:


> Ok, can you give me an example of certain conditions?
> 
> Let's please remember that this may be natty competitors.


I think the two conditions to which it's suited are when training to the lactate threshold and then also when training for multiple sessions daily or training once a day but everyday. In the case of multiple sessions either just workouts of one kind or a combination of weights, cardio and sports training as many sports people do.

When training that depletes glycogen and causes a big lactate burn, the body is forced to work at between 75 and 90% VO2 max, and this will cause significant depletion of glycogen - approximately 80% liver/ 60% muscular store depletion in 20-40 mins at this average oxygen use level.

This level of intensity burns glycogen more quickly than at any other intensity and, unless you take advantage of the supercompensation potential post workout you won't replenish 100% of glycogen within 24 hours - and so can drive glycogen levels too low for optimum performance.

As for immediate PWO muscle glycogen replenishment for a bodybuilder, I don't actually think it's that important, especially not if he/she's getting more than 24 hours rest between sessions - the body will replenish anyway with 24-36 hours just from diet without any immediate PWO carbs, and if the first proper PWO meal a little later is carb friendly this will get things moving nicely.



> I understand but in the presence of insulin, GH production post workout is compromised. Fructose replenishes liver glycogen. The body only stores like 70 grams of liver glycogen anyway, so it is muscle glycogen that we want to replenish.


I think that liver replenishment is equally important overall and more important PWO. Replenishing the livers stores post workout helps energy levels return to normal more quickly, reducing the 'slumped in chair feeling like you've gone ten rounds with Tyson' feeling that you can get after a hard session - thats why I like the fruit option as it's sugars fuel the liver more quickly.

As for post session GH production compromised by insulin - it's not that GH doesn't get released in this condition it's just that it's delayed until plasma insulin levels drop. Also GH is pulsile, hitting the system every few hours throughout the day - and the largest spike is just after sleep (have read that this GH spike is five times greater than the post workout spike) so, if still worried about nutrients stunting GH output, worry more about the nocturnal spike and avoid eating close to going to bed than worry about the PWO spike.

The function of GH post workout anyway is to release energy from stored substrates when diet is inadequatly supplying energy - that's why insulin and carbs delay the spike, because it's no longer necessary. People seek to take advnatage of this GH surge to lose bodyfat and, while this may work to a degree, it's downside is that it's keeping the body in a stress situation for longer.

Basically what I'm saying overall is:

If you train more than once per 24 hours or train specifically in a way that gives you lactic acid build up and pump (and especially if you do both) then high GI carbs PWO can help recovery. Otherwise, carbs PWO will make no significant difference either way (not good or bad) and it's just down to other factors (whether cutting or bulking, time before next meal etc).

btw - sorry for the longwinded post!


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## ParaManiac (Mar 20, 2007)

nobbylou said:


> As Hilly said, might be worth just getting Protein and Glutamine into me Post workout and getting my oats with another protein shake half hour later.
> 
> what are your thoughts on that?


That is my protocol.

I have recently begun having the high GI shake 20 mins pre workout,obviously utilisable energy,but also in order to create a spike and subsequently an anabolic enviroment that will also prevent a cortisol build up.

IMO removes the need to do so PWO as the nutrients are already in your system and the bodies natural insulin response from training and growth hormone release can best do it's job.


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## hilly (Jan 19, 2008)

ParaManiac said:


> That is my protocol.
> 
> I have recently begun having the high GI shake 20 mins pre workout,obviously utilisable energy,but also in order to create a spike and subsequently an anabolic enviroment that will also prevent a cortisol build up.
> 
> IMO removes the need to do so PWO as the nutrients are already in your system and the bodies natural insulin response from training and growth hormone release can best do it's job.


yup makes alot of sense to me altho i dont know about the high gi so close to the workout. do you not think the high insulin spike could be detrimental in causing some energy issues during training. also are you getting any digestion issues etc?

i cant stomach anything within an hour of training. i tend to have 10g bcaa and 5g glutamine pre workout and pwo i have liquad aminos


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## ParaManiac (Mar 20, 2007)

hilly2008 said:


> yup makes alot of sense to me altho i dont know about the high gi so close to the workout. do you not think the high insulin spike could be detrimental in causing some energy issues during training. also are you getting any digestion issues etc?
> 
> i cant stomach anything within an hour of training. i tend to have 10g bcaa and 5g glutamine pre workout and pwo i have liquad aminos


Should have said,i only use a small amount of each so no issue with digestion and energy has improved.

Carbs 25g (dex)

Protein 20g (whey/egg white)

creatine 5g

leucine 5g


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## hilly (Jan 19, 2008)

ahhh that makes sense


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## JBC Nutrition (Sep 19, 2007)

This is turning into a very good post, even if i do say so myself :whistling:


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## hilly (Jan 19, 2008)

haha you learn something new everyday or i seem to anyway


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## Kezz (Sep 3, 2007)

I generaly have oats and whey after training


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

ParaManiac said:


> That is my protocol.
> 
> I have recently begun having the high GI shake 20 mins pre workout,obviously utilisable energy,but also in order to create a spike and subsequently an anabolic enviroment that will also prevent a cortisol build up.
> 
> IMO removes the need to do so PWO as the nutrients are already in your system and the bodies natural insulin response from training and growth hormone release can best do it's job.


Hey Para 

Think you've hit the nail on the head. Hadn't mentioned pre-workout supp's due to the way the dicussion was going but I agree that the PRE workout drink is far more important than the PWO drink.

They way I see it, the PRE drink sets you up to be less catabolic and more hypertrophic while the PWO is all about quickly replacing lost energy (if required).


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Dtlv74 said:


> I think the two conditions to which it's suited are when training to the lactate threshold and then also when training for multiple sessions daily or training once a day but everyday. In the case of multiple sessions either just workouts of one kind or a combination of weights, cardio and sports training as many sports people do.
> 
> When training that depletes glycogen and causes a big lactate burn, the body is forced to work at between 75 and 90% VO2 max, and this will cause significant depletion of glycogen - approximately 80% liver/ 60% muscular store depletion in 20-40 mins at this average oxygen use level.
> 
> ...


Nice post, just a couple of small errors.

Nocternal release of GH is during the first few hours of sleep and specifically R.E.M. sleep.

At this time, insulin will curb GH release big time, but protein will not, so when one was to have a high carb meal and go to bed, GH is blunted.

The big lactate burn give the spike in GH as well, this is one reason HIIT works so well (one reason anyway).

Again, just protein wont have that big of an effect on GH output but insulin will.

But you trade one slightly anabolic hormone (GH) for an even bigger anabolic hormone (insulin).

So with that said I do see your point entirely.

I am not even hungry PWO, but then again I get in and get out using HIT about for a half an hour 3 times a week, so my glycogen stores are not being depeleted at all.

If my memory serves me correctly (im old here), it is about 70 grams for liver glycogen store and up to like 400 grams in muscle.

This is over 1800 calories used for fuel from just glucose, remember some of that will be fat burning too, so I would suggest that if one is burning this many calories he no doubt is overtraining.

Not many can burn 2/3 of your total calorie intake in a session or multiple sessions in the gym.

The body can store much faster than it can deplete.

If this happens to be the case then eating while training might be an even better approach, cyclists do this all the time when training, something like goo or oatmeal cookies work well.


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

hackskii said:


> Nice post, just a couple of small errors.
> 
> Nocternal release of GH is during the first few hours of sleep and specifically R.E.M. sleep.
> 
> ...


Good points hackskii. Yes, i meant GH spike just after falling off to sleep rather than 'after sleep' but my typing obviously wasn't keeping up with my brain (I'm old too ya know).

From the stuff I've read you are right about how much glycogen the body can hold in various stores - and I agree it'd be very difficult to burn it all right down (on a carb friendly diet and so starting from a full store) in one session.

At that 70-85% VO2 max intensity though the body does burn through the stuff like nothing else though... but generally, just as you say, topping up with slow release carbs will deal with muscular glycogen repletion completely is just that a few fast carbs PWO may help the liver replenish optimally.

I also agree with a point you made in an earlier post about high GI carbs being nutritionally devoid - absolutely! Generally is best to avoid them as much as possible


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Dtlv74 said:


> Good points hackskii. Yes, i meant GH spike just after falling off to sleep rather than 'after sleep' but my typing obviously wasn't keeping up with my brain (I'm old too ya know).
> 
> From the stuff I've read you are right about how much glycogen the body can hold in various stores - and I agree it'd be very difficult to burn it all right down (on a carb friendly diet and so starting from a full store) in one session.
> 
> ...


Thank you for your input on this thread, These kind of threads are my favorite, they contain usable information yet are debated in a civil way where questions can be asked for further clarification without any flamming.

I love that.

Hey mate, how old are you?

I will be 50 next month. :beer:


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## wes (May 28, 2006)

hackskii said:


> Thank you for your input on this thread, *These kind of threads are my favorite, they contain usable information yet are debated in a civil way where questions can be asked for further clarification without any flamming.*
> 
> I love that.
> 
> ...


This way of life leaves me scratching my head more often than not. :confused1: :confused1:

It's not for the weak minded.

As for the posts, I second the above. Great read lads. :thumbup1:

I have only just dropped my fast carbs PWO because I felt they were of no use and may in fact be having a negative effect regarding leanness. So I have substituted with a bit of fruit followed by my weight shake.

Have to wait and see what happens, I guess!!


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Well, the big boys of old didnt have whey shakes and fast acting carbs, they ate stuff like steak and potatos, or had handfulls of liver (barf)....lol


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## Ken Hutchinson (May 29, 2009)

well having read through this tread again i am certain i am doing the right thing about cutting out the dextrose post workout.


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## neildo (Oct 9, 2008)

Very interesting reading, agree with hackskii love an educated discussion on things we all do or take for granted to do with out training...

Think i may need to look more into the importance of the pre workout drink....currently dont have one just my normal pre wo supplement/stimulant. Have 50g dextrose in my pwo shake but do find this really helps to get me from feeling like i've just been dry bummed by a rhino to able to handle a long shift in work on my feet...


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## fozyspilgrims (Oct 22, 2007)

I use 50-50 oats and malto. Best of both.


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## hilly (Jan 19, 2008)

fozyspilgrims said:


> I use 50-50 oats and malto. Best of both.


Not necessarily, if what i have been reading is correct adding carbs in and causing an insulin spike does slow down and stop protein synthesis then having a fast carb is the worse thing you could do and having any carbs isnt the best idea.

Im not saying this will prevent muscle gain etc and it may help you recover energy wise better but for muscle growth and protein synthesis to happen for a prolonged period of time then carbs are the last thing we want straight after a workout it seems.


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## Kezz (Sep 3, 2007)

i have tried fast and slow carbs after training and honestly cant say which was better, didnt feel look or recover any different.

Plus eating oats after a hard workout is so much nicer than a skanky drink of malto, lol


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## JBC Nutrition (Sep 19, 2007)

So how does this look for both Pre Workout and Post workout?

20 Mins before workout:-

1 scoop of whey (21g Protien)

5g Glutamine

*Possible 20g Oats (for energy as I train at 06.30)

Post Workout:-

1 scoop of whey (21g protein)

5g Glutamine

30-40 Mins later:-

1 scoop of whey (21g protein)

100g Oats (60g Carbs)


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

hackskii said:


> Thank you for your input on this thread, These kind of threads are my favorite, they contain usable information yet are debated in a civil way where questions can be asked for further clarification without any flamming.
> 
> I love that.
> 
> ...


Thanks that's kind. I much prefer the civilised discussions too... flaming and closed minded pride of opinion doesn't ever advance understanding - and to learn is why we are here in the first place!

Fifty is still young... am only thirty five but most of the time feel like I'm about seventy (yet often act like I'm about 10)!

:beer:


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## dale_flex (Feb 17, 2008)

Dtlv74 and Hacksii threads like this are why i love this board. Learning alot thanks guys Dale


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

nobbylou said:


> So how does this look for both Pre Workout and Post workout?
> 
> 20 Mins before workout:-
> 
> ...


That looks perfectly fine to me.

Basically you want three things from your pre (and post for that matter) workout protein - it to be fast acting, insulinic, and to have the complete range of essential amino acids. This is the best combination of qualities to get the best level of protein synthesis and activate the most growth pathways.

I think for this purpose EAAs (with a little extra leucine or BCAAs) or whey is the best choice - ideally a whey hydrolysate or isolate rather than a concentrate. The addition of glutamine will help buffer any lactic acid and bolster PWO immunity so is a good choice too, and training so early probably makes the oats (back on thread topic in the end  ) important as well.


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## JBC Nutrition (Sep 19, 2007)

Dtlv74 said:


> That looks perfectly fine to me.
> 
> Basically you want three things from your pre (and post for that matter) workout protein - it to be fast acting, insulinic, and to have the complete range of essential amino acids. This is the best combination of qualities to get the best level of protein synthesis and activate the most growth pathways.
> 
> I think for this purpose EAAs (with a little extra leucine or BCAAs) or whey is the best choice - ideally a whey hydrolysate or isolate rather than a concentrate. The addition of glutamine will help buffer any lactic acid and bolster PWO immunity so is a good choice too, and training so early probably makes the oats (back on thread topic in the end  ) important as well.


Thank you. I will run this and see how we get on, Totally agree about the Oats Pre-workout as it can sometimes be hard to muster the energy to push out the big weights. :thumb:


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## ParaManiac (Mar 20, 2007)

nobbylou said:


> Thank you. I will run this and see how we get on, Totally agree about the Oats Pre-workout as it can sometimes be hard to muster the energy to push out the big weights. :thumb:


Nobby,i think Dtlv74 is referring to the oats PWO as a good choice,to set you up for the rest of the day.

Preworkout,dex,imo,would be the better choice as this will cause,along with the whey/eaa's,the desired insulogenic response.Oats will not cause such a rapid rise and the effect will be blunted.


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## JBC Nutrition (Sep 19, 2007)

ParaManiac said:


> Nobby,i think Dtlv74 is referring to the oats PWO as a good choice,to set you up for the rest of the day.
> 
> Preworkout,dex,imo,would be the better choice as this will cause,along with the whey/eaa's,the desired insulogenic response.Oats will not cause such a rapid rise and the effect will be blunted.


Ok I understand,

do you think that it would be an idea to cut out the carbs pre-workout and just go for Whey and L-gluteamine?

and stick with the oats 30-45mins after my workout?


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## ParaManiac (Mar 20, 2007)

nobbylou said:


> Ok I understand,
> 
> do you think that it would be an idea to cut out the carbs pre-workout and just go for Whey and L-gluteamine?
> 
> and stick with the oats 30-45mins after my workout?


I wouldn't,i need some carbs before training but i know others who don't and do just fine.

If i was going to use the above protocol,i'd have the Glutamine on waking and then a Whey/leucine combo 15mins later,train 15-20 mins after.

I'd also possibly have a small amount of oats before bed the night before.

Glutamine immediately PWO,Oats/protein blend 30 -45mins later.


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

ParaManiac said:


> I wouldn't,i need some carbs before training but i know others who don't and do just fine.
> 
> If i was going to use the above protocol,i'd have the Glutamine on waking and then a Whey/leucine combo 15mins later,train 15-20 mins after.
> 
> ...


Pretty much this yes. The oats could be taken the night before or say an hour before the morning session, then a modest amount of dex or malto with the protein preworkout if you feel the need for it. The fast carbs will aid insulin during the session, which is good, but the important thing at this time is really the protein.

Good point on the glutamine - unless its glutamine peptides you are taking its best to take on an empty stomach before anything else. Is not problematic if you take it with other stuff is just that its nutritional benefits will be largely blunted and it will just function as fuel.


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## hilly (Jan 19, 2008)

nobbylou said:


> So how does this look for both Pre Workout and Post workout?
> 
> 20 Mins before workout:-
> 
> ...


It looks good altho could be improved by adding bcaa and or eaa like has been said.

another thing i would do if you can afford it is switch one of the shakes or 2 for egg protein if you were not adding in the bcaa/eaa as it has a wider range of aminos i believe.


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## hilly (Jan 19, 2008)

i think personally you dont need the dex pre workout as long as you have had a good carb meal within 2-3 hours of training you would be fine but as para said this varies from person to person.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Dtlv74 said:


> The addition of glutamine will help buffer any lactic acid and bolster PWO immunity so is a good choice too, and training so early probably makes the oats (back on thread topic in the end  ) important as well.


Hey mate, there is some controversy on the effectiveness of glutamine.

Some say the stomach takes it up and renders it worthless.

I have seen some healthy debates on this.

Can you please give me some of your input on this one?


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## dale_flex (Feb 17, 2008)

Regarding pwo carbohydrate choices. When using insulin pwo would it be better to us fruit/oats for there nutritional value over say vitargo? As surely taking synthetic insulin cancels the need for fast or high molecular weight carbohydrates? So when using slin pwo i'd use 20gms bcaa's a banana and some raisens for example? What would you guys recommend pwo when using insulin?


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## hilly (Jan 19, 2008)

dale_flex said:


> Regarding pwo carbohydrate choices. When using insulin pwo would it be better to us fruit/oats for there nutritional value over say vitargo? As surely taking synthetic insulin cancels the need for fast or high molecular weight carbohydrates? So when using slin pwo i'd use 20gms bcaa's a banana and some raisens for example? What would you guys recommend pwo when using insulin?


normally i would say something similar to what you are doing mate with carbs and bcaa first followed by whey 20 mins later.

however reading datbru's post over on promuscle. he is a very clever guy and he has been doing a small dose of 1-2iu of slin pwo with just protein then some protein and fats a little later as he believes carbs and glucose will slow down and stop protein synthesis.

it seems very interesting and something i would like to try and may do so in the future.


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

hackskii said:


> Hey mate, there is some controversy on the effectiveness of glutamine.
> 
> Some say the stomach takes it up and renders it worthless.
> 
> ...


Yes can have a go at answering this - was asked to research and write an article on glutamine a few months ago :smartass: and some of it is still fresh (just about)!

The issue with glutamine is one of which cells get the glutamine first, and also a marketing issue related to glutamine peptide products.

I can't remember exact figures but there is a difference between L-glutamine and glutamine peptides in where they exert most effect. Glutamine has many functions within the body - is a small protein molecule with an extra nitrogen atom which makes it versatile and easy to convert to many other amino acids. It can also cross the blood brain barrier which most aminos can't.

The difference between the two types of glutamine is not that one works and another doesn't (although manufacturers of glutamine peptides might like you to believe this), it's that glutamine is a preferential fuel for the intestinal microflora that line the intestine and help digest food, and much of L-glutamine (i think 60 or 70%) immediately gets used here.

With glutamine peptides, the peptide bond makes it more difficult for the intestinal flora to use this fuel and helps it get into the blood plasma... so a much higher percentage of it reaches the muscles and other organs (something like 90%).

For this reason some people don't bother with L-Glutamine because it provides less value for training purposes but I think they miss out on the digestive health benefits - and remember you still do get a reasonable amount to the muscles, especially if using 10-20g a day as suggested.

IMO is best to use both to get all the benefits, but few people actually do this.


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## hilly (Jan 19, 2008)

so you think taking glutamine pwo is of little use to us?

Usually i havnt eaten within an hour or 2 of training so i would class this as an empty stomach. would this make my pre and post glutamine worth having or am i better off just nocking 10g into me on rising??


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## ParaManiac (Mar 20, 2007)

hilly2008 said:


> so you think taking glutamine pwo is of little use to us?
> 
> Usually i havnt eaten within an hour or 2 of training so i would class this as an empty stomach. would this make my pre and post glutamine worth having or am i better off just nocking 10g into me on rising??


I think it's worth taking PWO for its alkalyzing properties.

I also believe there is evidence to suggest it will restock glycogen levels as effectively as a carb source.


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## All4n (May 30, 2008)

Taking glutamine PWO can be used as an alternative to using carbs such as dextrose etc as your body will convert glutamine to glucose when required. This provides glycogen replenishment without the insulin spike. The rest of the glutamine is utlised by the body as it normally would be i.e replensihign glutamine levels, digestive aid etc. Therefore i don't believe by consuming glutamine you will

A. Store it is bodyfat as why would your body convert the glutamine to glucose just to store it as fat? I do not think it would do this, your bodily will readily convert to glucose to replenish glycogen stores just to intensive exercises depleting said stores.

B. Create an insulin spike which as suggested above may inhibit protein synthesis, cause low blood sugar levels resulting in catabolism, fat gain etc etc

Both of the above points are the potential negative effects of ingesting fast carbs postworkout. So i think glutamine is a very handy substance to take PWO, mainly for those that are carb insensitive, don't have great insulin sensitivity, maybe train low volume etc.

I've used it when following the anabolic diet and it worked ime. The reason how i determined whether it was working or not was that i had hit a sticking point in terms of strength. By introducing the glutamine pwo strength starting increased. I feel it defianlty helped, i also didn't feel the need for the carb ups being so big. Downside was that since i didn't really scale back the carb ups i felt i gained more fat. But this was due to, i believe, glycogen stores not being depleted enough to warrant the carbs ups being so big.


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

ParaManiac said:


> I think it's worth taking PWO for its alkalyzing properties.
> 
> I also believe there is evidence to suggest it will restock glycogen levels as effectively as a carb source.


Yep, agreed :thumbup1:



All4n said:


> Taking glutamine PWO can be used as an alternative to using carbs such as dextrose etc as your body will convert glutamine to glucose when required. This provides glycogen replenishment without the insulin spike. The rest of the glutamine is utlised by the body as it normally would be i.e replensihign glutamine levels, digestive aid etc. Therefore i don't believe by consuming glutamine you will
> 
> A. Store it is bodyfat as why would your body convert the glutamine to glucose just to store it as fat? I do not think it would do this, your bodily will readily convert to glucose to replenish glycogen stores just to intensive exercises depleting said stores.
> 
> ...


Glutamine is a great choice as a PWO carb alternative when cutting for just those reasons - I know coaches like Chad Waterbury recommend it.

For this purpose have seen suggested dosing PWO dosing at 1-1.25g per 10lbs bodyweight (so 20-25g if 200lbs).


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## wes (May 28, 2006)

Scott and Dtlv. I have repped you both for all that valuable info. Cheers


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## wes (May 28, 2006)

Para and All4n you get some too. :thumbup1:

I think glutamine is a great supplement and always use it, really essential but didn't know about the peptides. Will try these. cheers.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Dtlv74 said:


> Yes can have a go at answering this - was asked to research and write an article on glutamine a few months ago :smartass: and some of it is still fresh (just about)!
> 
> The issue with glutamine is one of which cells get the glutamine first, and also a marketing issue related to glutamine peptide products.
> 
> ...


Wow, I must be out of the loop as I didnt even know there was anything besides l

L-Glutamine....lol

I totally love thought provoking threads.

I have learned something today, well actually two things (one not related to this post).

I remember from long ago that glutamine can be drawn from the muscles in case if a boost in immune needed a responce, and that older folks carry less muscle so in theory had less glutamine in case of a needed immune system responce.

So, one reason for older folks to keep muscle is for a stronger immune system due to the added glutamine when needed.

I remember that from many years ago.

I need to brush up on this.

Thanks again for the awesome posts.


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## ba baracuss (Apr 26, 2004)

Interesting posts. It's good to see there are still people here that post good information rather than the usual facebook style drivel that has taken over lately.

I must say it doesn't make much sense to me to use something as expensive as glutamine for glycogen replenishment though when you can use low GI carbs/fats if insulin spikes are a concern.

Is there not sufficient glutamine in whey to cover the bases required?


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## matteast (Aug 3, 2009)

I usually take after workout:

- 25 gr of Whey Protein

- 10 gr of Vitargo

- 15 gr of Glucose

- 1gr of Arginin

in one shaker with 400 ml of water

and I drink another shaker with the same amount of water in 30 minutes with

- 25 gr of Whey Protein

- 20 gr of Maltodextrin

with 4gr L-Glutamine and 300mg of VIT.E

Guys now I have a question, what do you think about?

If someone gives me some right I'm ready to change my mind, thanks!


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## T.F. (Aug 28, 2008)

I'm not the most knowledgeable on here when it comes to advice of the nature contained within this thread (always learning though), but that looks completely wrong to me.

Have a read through the thread and you'll see what options have been recommended.


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

ba baracuss said:


> Interesting posts. It's good to see there are still people here that post good information rather than the usual facebook style drivel that has taken over lately.
> 
> I must say it doesn't make much sense to me to use something as expensive as glutamine for glycogen replenishment though when you can use low GI carbs/fats if insulin spikes are a concern.
> 
> Is there not sufficient glutamine in whey to cover the bases required?


Glutamine is an expensive way to do it I agree - but it does work, and some people really don't like to take carbs, not even post workout, so it's a good choice for them. Whey has some in it (pretty much all protein has glutamine) but it's far better utilised for this purpose when taken on its own and in pure form (as opposed to with other stuff when its more likely to be oxidised and used for immediate energy).

For most people, who aren't training mutliple times per day (or even every day), low GI carbs from food will replenish glycogen fully without having to worry about and high GI carbs post workout... although they can help with percieved energy levels and won't do any harm.

Fats won't replenish glycogen at all though - fat molecules for energy don't convert to glucose or glycogen, they take the form of triglycerides or ketones which get used by the muscles and liver.


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## JBC Nutrition (Sep 19, 2007)

well i've been taking for the last 3 days:-

upon waking up, 5g glutamine in water (repulsive taste  )

30 mins later 1 scoop of jbc whey (21g protein)

Post workout taking: 5g glutamine and 1 scoop of whey (21g protein)

30 mins later taking 2 scoops of whey (42g protein) and 100g Oats.

I know its only been 3 days but im hopefull of seeing results.

One thing though, not sure if this is related but since doing things this way, Im STARVING through out the day? any reason for this?

Im still getting my meals every 3 hours but feel my appetite is raging.

(i've put the hyper links so you can see any nutritional info etc)


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

nobbylou said:


> well i've been taking for the last 3 days:-
> 
> upon waking up, 5g glutamine in water (repulsive taste  )
> 
> ...


I have read one or two other people on forums commenting that glutamine can increase appetite... but in all honesty I have no idea why or how it might do that - and i haven't noticed it doing so for me.

Have you suddenly started consuming more protein? I find that at times when i increase protein in my diet i get increased hunger (even if overall calories do not drop). If i increase fats or carbs my appetite goes down.


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## JBC Nutrition (Sep 19, 2007)

Dtlv74 said:


> I have read one or two other people on forums commenting that glutamine can increase appetite... but in all honesty I have no idea why or how it might do that - and i haven't noticed it doing so for me.
> 
> Have you suddenly started consuming more protein? I find that at times when i increase protein in my diet i get increased hunger (even if overall calories do not drop). If i increase fats or carbs my appetite goes down.


If my protein has increased it would only be marginal, as i would normally have 42g protein post workout, where as now im having 21g pre workout, 21g post workout and then 42g 30-40 mins later, so its increased by 21g.

I will let it run for a few more weeks as im sure my body will get used to it and hopefully I'll start seeing some benefits.


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

When i first took glutamine (20g daily) it took about two weeks before i noticed anything. The most obvious effect was improved digestion - I'd had mild IBS for about two years and the glutamine got rid of it completely and permanently. I also think that i started to have better energy/feel more awake a.m. when taking a morning dose... but this is just subjective.

Whatever, give it a few weeks...IMO it's a cheap enough supplement with enough potential health benefits to be worth giving a bash.


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## big_jim_87 (Jul 9, 2009)

i have good old glucose pw then 1hr l8er good old oats


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## ba baracuss (Apr 26, 2004)

Dtlv74 said:


> Glutamine is an expensive way to do it I agree - but it does work, and some people really don't like to take carbs, not even post workout, so it's a good choice for them. Whey has some in it (pretty much all protein has glutamine) but it's far better utilised for this purpose when taken on its own and in pure form (as opposed to with other stuff when its more likely to be oxidised and used for immediate energy).
> 
> For most people, who aren't training mutliple times per day (or even every day), low GI carbs from food will replenish glycogen fully without having to worry about and high GI carbs post workout... although they can help with percieved energy levels and won't do any harm.
> 
> Fats won't replenish glycogen at all though - fat molecules for energy don't convert to glucose or glycogen, they take the form of triglycerides or ketones which get used by the muscles and liver.


Nice post mate :thumbup1:

How would you recommend using glutamine post workout? A mix of peptide and L glutamine of what doses and when?

I usually have a whey and maize flour shake PWO so before this or just added to it?


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## fozyspilgrims (Oct 22, 2007)

Top thread i will have to really study this at a later date.


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

ba baracuss said:


> Nice post mate :thumbup1:
> 
> How would you recommend using glutamine post workout? A mix of peptide and L glutamine of what doses and when?
> 
> I usually have a whey and maize flour shake PWO so before this or just added to it?


If using L glutamine it's best to take it immediately after training and before your normal shake which you'd take 10-15 mins after. With glutamine peptides it doesn't matter & you can take them with anything... although if taking L glutamine too I'd take them both together first just for simplicity.

Personally, if taking both, I'd take 10g of L glutamine over two doses throughout the day and an additional 5g immediately post workout with the 5g of glutamine peptides added.


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## JBC Nutrition (Sep 19, 2007)

Ok things are going well so far, feel much better and the hunger has slowed right down.

One thing I did want to ask was, should I still be taking the Glutamine upon waking on my off days?


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## Miller (Jan 19, 2009)

I like to stick to basics usually so I cant be confused but then I read topics like this and get myself confused haha

I normally have 2 scoops whey, 5g creatine, 5g glutamine and 1 large banana within about 20/25 minutes pwo

Is there any improvements I can make on this?

I prefer solid foods which is why I have the banana


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## JBC Nutrition (Sep 19, 2007)

Miller said:


> I like to stick to basics usually so I cant be confused but then I read topics like this and get myself confused haha
> 
> I normally have 2 scoops whey, 5g creatine, 5g glutamine and 1 large banana within about 20/25 minutes pwo
> 
> ...


From reading this thread a few times this is what I have started doing supplements wise,

As soon as I wake up 5g L-glutamine.

20 mins later 1 scoop of whey (21g protien)

TRAIN

Post workout 1 scoop of Whey and 5g L-glutamine

30-40 Mins later 2 scoops of whey and 100g Oats.

Seems to working well for me at the moment but like I said before Im going to run it for another 6-8 weeks to get a more accurate result.


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## hilly (Jan 19, 2008)

nobbylou said:


> From reading this thread a few times this is what I have started doing supplements wise,
> 
> As soon as I wake up 5g L-glutamine.
> 
> ...


Looks ok to me however no carbs pre workout that must be a killer. i cant train first thing on a morning my strength drops atleast 10%.

i had to do this due to work for 2 months before i used to get up an hour early have a bowl of oats and whey then go back to sleep for an hour.


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## JBC Nutrition (Sep 19, 2007)

I never used to have carbs pre workout any way, used to have endorush or my Super N.OX I know it has 20g carbs in but I never used to eat anything.

TBH my strength is not too bad, i've not noticed any drop in weights, if anything I have increased on my incline to 46kg d.b's from 42kg.

So things are moving in the right direction atleast. :thumb:


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## hilly (Jan 19, 2008)

thats good stuff.


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## ba baracuss (Apr 26, 2004)

Dtlv74 said:


> If using L glutamine it's best to take it immediately after training and before your normal shake which you'd take 10-15 mins after. With glutamine peptides it doesn't matter & you can take them with anything... although if taking L glutamine too I'd take them both together first just for simplicity.
> 
> Personally, if taking both, I'd take 10g of L glutamine over two doses throughout the day and an additional 5g immediately post workout with the 5g of glutamine peptides added.


Thanks again mate. I will give this a try once I get back to training :thumbup1:


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