# need to gain quality muscle..



## river (Mar 26, 2005)

hi there, this is my first post. firstly i'd just like to say i've taken a while to have a look round and read quite a few posts, and really liked the relaxed atmosphere on this board.

my stats are:

25 years old

5'8" height (171cm)

9 stone (57kg)

approx BMI 19.19

athletic build

muscle definition, but generally light-weight 

I'm determined to bulk up to a healthy and muscular 11 stone (70kg). I have access to a good range of gym equipment and have been working out (for martial arts mainly) for quite a few years. I just never seem to be able to maintain weight past 10 stone, it always drops to about 9. I try eating more but i've come to the conclusion i'm just not eating the right stuff to add that amount of weight in a healthy manner.

I'd really appreciate your comments on this, and any suggestions as to how to add the weight in muscle, whilst staying healthy and not throwing up everywhere on bizarre cocktails 

I think I understand the principles of eating more than the metabolism can get through, but i'm lost in terms of meals, do i need supplements, and the type of lifting i should be doing.

seriously, thanks for taking the time to read this and happy lifting.

river.


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## jugganaut (Mar 20, 2005)

One thing you need to know. Test is always best. IMO what ever cycle your doing test should always be part of it. You could a testosterone enanthate only cycle @200mg-400mg per week for 10 weeks.


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## big (Sep 14, 2004)

I agree that test is a great base for any cycle, but he's only 9 stone. He should be able to gain loads more naturally first. The fact that he can't is an indicator that either his training or his diet or both are wrong.

Post up your current diet and we'll be able to show you what changes you need to make. And post up your current training split and we'll show you what you need to change with that too 

It sounds like you're a classic ectomorph hardgainer, which means you will probably respond extremely well to low volume training and an extremely high calorie diet.


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## river (Mar 26, 2005)

thanx for your replies..

my current diet is:

breakfast: white toast OR cereal/fruit juice

lunch: white bread sandwiches, tuna OR jacket potato, beans etc..

dinner: pasta (plate full) cheese sauce.

snack: oranges, toast.

water: 4 glasses a day.

vitamin: centrium complete.

current workout is (probably twice a week)

bench press 3x12

arm curl 3x12

butterflys 3x12

leg curls 3x12

sit ups x 50

press ups x 25

i know thats is not a good bulky diet and light workout, hence my post and the desire to make postive changes.

your advice is very much appreciated.

river.


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## big (Sep 14, 2004)

Okay both your diet and workout could use some work.

You diet needs far more protein with each meal, more healthy fats, and better carb sources. You should also be eating 5-6 times a day minimum. Try to get in at each meal a protein source (lean meat or fish), a good carb source (brown rice, wholemeal pasta etc) and some healthy fats (in the form of oils).

You should also double, or even triple (or more) your water intake.

I suspect you have a small appetite, like most ecto hardgainers, but you really need to boatload the calories to gain mass. Blend food if necessary - just get it down you!

Your workout routine needs compounds - squats and deadlifts. You don't need to be eating into your recovery time with curls. Stick to the basic compounds (squats, deads, bench, military press, chins, rows), and split your workout into two different sessions each week, keeping volume low at each session.

Ensure you get 8 hours sleep each night.


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## ChefX (Jan 10, 2005)

you eating horrible in a way, not near enough proteins and fats

time to overhaul the diet

first off try and eat at least equal macronutrients for a few weeks (adjust your calories weekly by 500 until your gaining about 1/2 lb a week)

that will make a vast impact

eat some food!


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## Captain Hero (Jun 13, 2004)

river said:


> thanx for your replies..
> 
> my current diet is:
> 
> ...


Hey dude dont worry we all have to start somewhere you get some quality food down ya, sleep right and train right and you should put on some size mate  Stick around and youll be able to get some good information from this board, theres loads of intelligent, informed people wholl be able to help you out mate :lift:

Happy Lifting!


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## samurai691436114498 (Jan 6, 2005)

Basically what ChefX and Big say.

Compound exercises and the right diet will both go a long way in the right direction, what MA, and are you still involved with the MA's


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## Malakor (Feb 28, 2005)

I have a very similar background, so I know what it's like. I used to do Lau Gar Kung Fu twice a week, and those sessions were gruelling to say the least. I must have tried every combo of weight training, diet, supplementation, you name it.......but progress was extremely slow nonetheless. When I used to tell my mates that I went down the gym they would always say "Was it closed when you got there?" the cheeky basts! Eventually I decided enough was enough, and decided to research up on AAS. After a few months I convinced myself a one month course of anabols was the way to go - and have never looked back since! I don't know what it is about genetic makeup, but am sure being a 'late developer' has a lot to do with it; much in the way a plant striving towards the light will grow spindly in it's initial development.

But what the hell - now it's my turn to laugh as the shoe is most definitely on the other foot!


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## Jimmy1 (Aug 14, 2003)

river said:


> need to gain quality muscle...


ask robdog

he has the same problem :bounce:


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## river (Mar 26, 2005)

thanx everyone for your helpful replies and making me feel at home here..

ok, so i've read up a bit and drafted this eating plan, but could do with some more pointers, like how the hell do I eat all of this stuff!!! I'm missing some carbs (target 420g), i think protein comes to around 119g, which is inline with my target weight of 70kg (1.7 ratio)

06:00 2 x Weetabix with milk

08:00 2 x Eggs on toast & fruit juice

09:00 1 x Banana

11:00 1 x Half-pint of milk

13:00 2 x Jacket Potatoes with cheese and margarine

14:00 1 x Half-pint of milk

16:00 2 x Beans on toast

18:30 1 x Chicken with vegetables and fruit juice

20:00 1 x Crisps or chocolate

does this look remotely right? and if not what should i change?

thanx again for your advice, river.


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## big (Sep 14, 2004)

River, you need far more protein than that (IMO you should be shooting for 300g+), and the fats should come from good clean sources like oils. You're also going too dirty especially late at night with crisps. Beans on toast shouldn't even figure into a diet. You should be eating lots of beef and far more chicken.


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## river (Mar 26, 2005)

thanx guys, the bbc fitness site said anymore than 2g protein per kg of bodyweight wouldn't build muscle, and gave 1.6-1.7 as a guide (so that must be for just standard fitness or something, confused me anyway!!)

so, i'll lose the crisps/chocolate, and take fats from good oils (like olive oil?), and stack on some more fish, beef and chicken.

what shall i replace the beans on toast with? anything not -too- heavy for a snack?

oh, and are the carbs too high at 420?

river.


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## big (Sep 14, 2004)

river said:


> thanx guys, the bbc fitness site said anymore than 2g per kg of bodyweight wouldn't build muscle, and gave 1.6-1.7 as a guide.
> 
> so, i'll lose the crisps/chocolate, and take fats from good oils (like what?), and stack on some more fish or chicken.
> 
> ...


Unfortunately I doubt any bodybuilders write the bbc fitness website. You get a lot of guys who weigh 170lbs and less soaking wet saying that you don't need lots of protein to grow. But look at the vast majority of the bigger bodybuilders - they're all taking in HUGE quantities of protein. Coleman, Yates, Cutler etc etc all boatload the protein. I generally learn by the example of those people far bigger and stronger than me rather than a 160lb writer of a fitness site.

Good oils are fish oils (take lots of caps/day) and extra virgin olive oil.

Just replace the beans on toast with some chicken or fish and veggies... maybe some rice too.

The carbs may be too high at 420 - it's difficult to tell as it depends on how you respond to carbs. I respond badly to carbs, so even at 210lbs, I keep my carb intake very low even when bulking. But for you, at your weight, you probably won't gain much fat. The only thing you can do is try with carbs that high and see what happens - if you start gaining much fat, cut them back.

Personally I would say start off on these macros since you want to add so much mass and you're most likely an ecto:

Protein: 300-360g

Carbs: 300g

Fats: 150g

This gives you about 3750-4000 calories. This should come from unprocessed foods. Try to take in the majority of the carbs earlier in the day.

If you find you're gaining fat after a week or two, cut the macros back by 5%. If you find you're not gaining anything, increase them by 5%. Keep doing this until you get the weight gain you want without getting fat.


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## river (Mar 26, 2005)

thanks for the detailed information, thats really helpsm and i'll use those stats as my basis as you suggest.

finally, in terms of lifting etc.. you said earlier:

"Your workout routine needs compounds - squats and deadlifts. You don't need to be eating into your recovery time with curls. Stick to the basic compounds (squats, deads, bench, military press, chins, rows), and split your workout into two different sessions each week, keeping volume low at each session."

so if i do low reps 6-8, with more weight without the recovery time, a few times a week, i should be ok for a start?

river.


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## big (Sep 14, 2004)

river said:


> so if i do low reps 6-8, with more weight without the recovery time, a few times a week, i should be ok for a start?


I'm not sure exactly what you're asking so it's probably easier if I show you a typical 2 day split:

Monday (upper body push and abs)

---------

DB Bench 2x6

Military Press 2x6

Dips 2x6

Weighted abs 2x10

Thurs (legs and upper body pull)

------

Squats 1x20

Leg Press 1x15

SLDL 1x8

Chins 2x6

BB Row 2x6

BB Curls 1x8

Calf raise 1x15

Note that these do NOT include warm-ups - you will probably want a few light warm-up sets to start with.

As you can see the majority of exercises are compounds (like bench, dips, military press, rows etc) with a small amount of accessory work thrown in (abs, bb curl, calf raises) to get you used to those movements without wasting your time on them. People really grow seriously with the big compounds moves with heavy weights.

The workout is intentionally low volume and IMO is a great place to start. Focus totally on adding a small amount of weight each week while keeping form strict. As soon as an exercise stalls, substitute it out for a different one. No point in carrying on with something that's stopped working - go back to it later.

If you would rather lift 3 times a week, you can split that routine up with an upper push / upper pull / legs split - but just be careful about overtraining if you start adding volume. A lot of people find doing legs and upper body pull on the same day taxing, so you could split these up.

You also don't have to go by the 7 day week. You could do upper body push, rest 2 days, then upper body pull, rest 2 days, then legs and rest 2 days.. then repeat the cycle.

Just experiment a little, without overtraining, and find out what works best for you.


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## Jock (Apr 8, 2003)

Excellent advice from Big there take heed bro!!!

Just like to throw in my $0.02, looking at your diet and your stats, I think you would really struggle to eat 4000kcals a day and get anything over 300g of protien. Not having a go at Big's advice at all but, I it looks that eating enough is your problem at the moment. Start of with a more achievable target of 3000kcals first then increase when you start to get results and you feel more comfortable eating on the clock.

Bearing in mind you are a beginner I think you should should aim for about 3000kcals a day, using a standard beginners macro split (50% Carbs 30% Protein 20% Fat) you should for approximatley 375-380g of Carbs, 225-230g of Protein and 65-70g of Fat per day.

Best of luck, Jock


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

OK, first of all welcome to the board.

Second of all you need more protein in each meal and less carbs. There are better carbs than white toast, actually that is highly processed and not too good for you nutritionally.

You need more water too, that is half the daily allowence and even that might be too low.

You need to work legs too, squats come to mind. They will make you overall stronger and working legs can raise serum testosterone levels too.

Now the diet:

breakfast: white toast OR cereal/fruit juice......replace this with:

*oatmeal, small amount of butter on the oatmeal and 2 scoops of whey protein in the oatmeal.*

lunch: white bread sandwiches, tuna OR jacket potato, beans etc..

*More white bread......Not good... Tuna and a potato would be ok but add a couple of fish oils in here.*

dinner: pasta (plate full) cheese sauce.

*That white bread and pasta are highly refined foods and are pretty much junk if you ask me. Once and a while they are ok but not for your mail staple of diet.*

*
Steak, broccoli with some cheese on it but you can mix and match some vegetables here.*

snack: oranges, toast.

*Almonds would be a good snack, or maybe a couple of hard boiled eggs and an apple.*

water: 4 glasses a day.

*Half the minimum amount you need, double that or even tripple that and if it is filtered water this is better.*

I know you are martial arts so if you streatch you wont lose much speed but will probably increase strenght.

compound basic movements, squats, deadlifts, bench, military, pullups.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

You need to add a protein to each of the meals.

Only exception is food that has protein in it like lets say cottage cheese. Good snack too.

If you eat a bananna then eat a chicken breast with it and take in some fat in the likes of nuts or oils like the fish oils. I take 12 a day and love them. They are 1 gram each capsule.

If you eat some toast (not a good food) then put some tuna on that toast.

If you eat oats then toss some protein powder in it, this makes it nice and creamy.

If you are going to eat beans then toss some steak in there.


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## river (Mar 26, 2005)

thankyou for the replies, you've all been so helpful. it's really appreciated.

i'll assimilate the info, and put together a eating plan, and let you know how I get on.

is any whey protein supplement ok?

river.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

I like Designer Whey myself but Im not sure you can get that in the UK

I would also add some creatine in there too for some size.


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