# A question on lean bulking



## MFM (Jul 25, 2013)

So I've gone on a cut and lost most of my body fat. I now want to lean bulk but don't want to gain any fat again(or as little as possible).

I'm eating just over maintenance(200 cals), so what is supposed to be happening is I should slowly start getting some of my size back and stay lean at the same time right?

Well this is not happening. I'm training my ass off at the moment, so the intensity is there, and my diet is clean. I know I'm eating just over maintenance as I've gained only 1kg in the last two months, but I seem to have gained it all on my midsection. My abs have almost disappeared with such a small surplus and the rest of me is still the same.

I know for a fact if I eat more I will get bigger, but the fat will pile onto my mid section. Been there done that.

wtf?


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## nWo (Mar 25, 2014)

You natty mate? If so, forget lean bulking - lean bulking natty = eating at maintenance and hoping you put on some muscle.


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## Mclovin147 (Nov 11, 2013)

Agree with above.

It's not really/ideally possible for a natty...I did do it pretty well for about 8 months and gained a lot of weight, but that's coupled with beginner gains...Now I have to accept the belly as a way of life being natty and all lol

Trying to do will just slow progress right down mate (As you found out I think)


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## bartonz20let (Aug 13, 2010)

Isn't lean bulking better done when already lean then fluctuating between say 8-14%bf accepting that your gonna put some fat on with your muscle growth?


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## Robbiedbee (Nov 27, 2013)

How old are you, what is your height/weight and what is your BF% roughly?


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## MFM (Jul 25, 2013)

F*ck. So I've wasted 6 months of my life cutting and losing 17kg and went to around 10% bf just to start all over again and add get fat?

What about all the natty guys I see who are ripped and getting bigger without putting on any fat? Personal trainers at the gym etc?


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## MFM (Jul 25, 2013)

Robbiedbee said:


> How old are you, what is your height/weight and what is your BF% roughly?


34, 6'2", 84kg and 12% now.

Came down from 100kg and felt a lot happier with my size but the fat was just driving me mad. And now I'm told there's no way to get back there without putting the fat back...


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## Mclovin147 (Nov 11, 2013)

MFM said:


> F*ck. So I've wasted 6 months of my life cutting and losing 17kg and went to around 10% bf just to start all over again and add get fat?
> 
> What about all the natty guys I see who are ripped and getting bigger without putting on any fat? Personal trainers at the gym etc?


You can be sure there are no 'natty' guys staying 8%-10% whilst adding size, can't see that happening my self to be honest (Could be wrong) people who manage this 99% of the time are juiced mate.

No you haven't wasted time, aslong as you haven't returned to your starting weight and starting lifting stats then you have progressed...If you have returned to starting, you either put little muscle and lots of fat on in the first place, or your cut was too over the top.

Yep...start bulking again...Next time you cut, you'll be a little bit bigger/heavier/stronger at 10% than you were this time. It's how it works (Natty anyways)


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## bartonz20let (Aug 13, 2010)

If your looking to stay lean why not bulk for a few months but don't go over say 12-14% bf then cut back down to 8% then cycle it then you stay pretty lean most of the time.

Progress in size could be slower but its what I intend to do but as I've said in previous threads, I'd sooner be lean than massive.


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## SkinnyJ (Apr 21, 2012)

lol natty


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## MFM (Jul 25, 2013)

bartonz20let said:


> If your looking to stay lean why not bulk for a few months but don't go over say 12-14% bf then cut back down to 8% then cycle it then you stay pretty lean most of the time.


Because the whole point of this was for me to shift the fat indefinitely mate. I can't stand the sight of belly fat. I even hate the little bit I have now, and there really is fk all.

I guess this forces my hand to jump on the aas wagon.


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## bartonz20let (Aug 13, 2010)

Don't take this the wrong way but judging by previous threads you still don't seem to have mastered training naturally, adding steds to an average training plan and diet will only yield average results unless you plan to keep throwing steds at it and commit to long term use.

You'll look good on cycle and for a while after but pretty soon after the flaws in your training and diet will catch up.

Each to their own and all that but this is a mistake I made myself.


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## Mclovin147 (Nov 11, 2013)

I think your expectations are a little too high in terms of what your hoping to achieve naturally.

There is no secret to staying incredibly lean year round whilst adding decent size...The secrets out and it's called 'Steroids'.

Not to dismiss the hard work us nattys do put it in, but we do have to train/diet completely different to those on AAS...You have to cycle your Bodyweight/Muscle/Fat etc

Thats where the whole 'Bulk in winter cut for summer' comes from...Natty guys packing on the lbs, consisting of muscle and fat (Fat is basically a requirement for natty to gain muscle) during the winter, and if they deem themselves big enough, they get trim and cut for summer...If not they just keep bulking.

Your either going to have to put up with the slight increase in belly fat and the lack of abs and cycle your BF% year round or jump on juice, lean bulk and try and maintain etc or whatever your goals are.


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## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

It can be done natty but trust me it's a slow process


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## MFM (Jul 25, 2013)

Maybe I just thought there are more gains to be had naturally. Like I said I was a nice big bulky 100kg at my heaviest and although I was carrying a lot of bf, you couldn't really see it as I'm quite tall. I just thought I'd get rid of the fat and them get back to my former size lean. Job done.

Apparently not so. Lol


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## bartonz20let (Aug 13, 2010)

http://www.muscleforlife.com/how-much-muscle-can-you-build-naturally/


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## engllishboy (Nov 1, 2007)

Try adding 20 minutes HiiT after each session. Should help keep fat minimal


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

I've heard Layne Norton say something like he bulks for 4-6 weeks and then cuts for 1-2 weeks, and repeats. This will keep you fairly lean all the time and has advantages in terms of the efficiency of cutting.


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## rsd147 (Nov 14, 2012)

It can be done but expect slow progress...Its worth it in the sense you stay lean all year round but ensure you wont see mass gains


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## rsd147 (Nov 14, 2012)

Having said that people that "Bulk" natty only add 1-3lbs of quality muscle and the rest is fat so personally I would rather stay lean and see slow gains


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## bartonz20let (Aug 13, 2010)

rsd147 said:


> Having said that people that "Bulk" natty only add 1-3lbs of quality muscle and the rest is fat so personally I would rather stay lean and see slow gains


Pretty random number 1-3lb... how long would this take, how was the diet, how good was the training program etc etc.

1lb is nothing, you don't need assistance to gain 1 lb.


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## rsd147 (Nov 14, 2012)

bartonz20let said:


> Pretty random number 1-3lb... how long would this take, how was the diet, how good was the training program etc etc.
> 
> 1lb is nothing, you don't need assistance to gain 1 lb.


Over a year at an experienced lifter you would be very lucky to gain 4lbs of quality lean muscle without taking gear. Diet and training hard. lb of muscle is good over the course of a year


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## bartonz20let (Aug 13, 2010)

rsd147 said:


> Over a year at an experienced lifter you would be very lucky to gain 4lbs of quality lean muscle without taking gear. Diet and training hard. lb of muscle is good over the course of a year


Now thats a more qualified response, I'd argue that an experienced lifter should have a good understanding of their body and shouldn't need to have to gain huge amounts of fat to accomplish that sort of gain however.


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## rsd147 (Nov 14, 2012)

bartonz20let said:


> Now thats a more qualified response, I'd argue that an experienced lifter should have a good understanding of their body and shouldn't need to have to gain huge amounts of fat to accomplish that sort of gain however.


You would hope so...Some people prefer to do the full blown bulk and eat excess cals and others prefer to do it slowly. Each to their own


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Layne Norton talks about his bulking/cutting strategy about 3 minutes into this video:






It's a few years old so he may have changed what he does now, but FWIW it was bulk for 4-6 weeks then cut for 2 weeks. He reckons this has advantages both in terms of cutting and gaining muscle. I think I'm going to give this method a try actually, it sounds sensible.

This is a fairly detailed article covering Layne's views on the optimal way to cut, which I also think is well worth a read, and probably following:

http://www.simplyshredded.com/layne-norton-the-most-effective-cutting-diet.html


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## MFM (Jul 25, 2013)

So just an update. I've been slowly adding more calories as I haven't really seen the scale move but gaining more fat than I am happy with. The strange thing is, even though the scale isn't moving, I'm definitely making some gains as my shirts are tighter and my arms, chest and shoulders feel fuller. So I've spoken to a few people and it seems natty muscle gains are so slow that you won't see the scale moving on a monthly basis??

I was advised to drop the cals to maintenance again or just above and keep training hard and the gains will come without gaining more noticeable fat.

Anyone got any views on this?


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

It is possible for you to be gaining muscle and losing fat at the same time, such that your weight doesn't change much. Personally I would be looking for some measurable weight gain each month though. As I posted above, periodic brief cuts are a way of allowing yourself to stay pretty lean whilst gaining a little fat when bulking.

How fast your gains can be will also depend how long you've been training of course.

I'm curious what others think though.


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## Big ape (May 5, 2011)

Ultrasonic said:


> I've heard Layne Norton say something like he bulks for 4-6 weeks and then cuts for 1-2 weeks, and repeats. This will keep you fairly lean all the time and has advantages in terms of the efficiency of cutting.


agree with this bulk for 6-8 weeks then do 4 weeks mini cut


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## p.cullen (Jun 6, 2014)

its a slow slow progress! ive been trying to gain size natty for ages but at the same time stay lean as i hate seeing any fat on my stomach! as soon as i start eating loads i just feel constantly bloated and fat and it makes me want to eat maintenance cals at most. just train hard and eat right and eventually the gains will come!


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## MFM (Jul 25, 2013)

Big ape said:


> agree with this bulk for 6-8 weeks then do 4 weeks mini cut


That just sounds really counter productive to me?


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## Big ape (May 5, 2011)

MFM said:


> That just sounds really counter productive to me?


Don't do it then ?


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## MFM (Jul 25, 2013)

Big ape said:


> Don't do it then ?


Lol. Not trying to upset you. I was asking the question as I've never done it and in my mind it makes more sense to gain a good amount of muscle before you cut otherwise gains will be insignificant?


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## Big ape (May 5, 2011)

MFM said:


> Lol. Not trying to upset you. I was asking the question as I've never done it and in my mind it makes more sense to gain a good amount of muscle before you cut otherwise gains will be insignificant?


yeah i sort of rushed my post .... but i would probs bulk more like 12 weeks then 4 week mini cut thats me though


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

MFM said:


> That just sounds really counter productive to me?


I'm not saying this is definitely the way to go, but FWIW in the video I posted above Layne Norton explains why he believes it is advantageous to have 4-6 week bulking phases followed by 2 weeks cutting. In terms of the cutting advantage I believe something similar could be achieved by using perdiodic re-feed days during a longer cut, but the advantage he mentions in terms of bulking would not exist. A longer bulk will also of course mean you gain more fat before cutting, so it then becomes a question of what you are happy with.

Thinking back to your earlier post I realised that you said you were gaining fat but not gaining weight, is that right? If true that would suggest you are actually losing muscle, which seems unlikely. How often do you weigh yourself and do you always do it at the same time of day? What I do is weigh myself once per week, first thing in the morning (after I've emptied my bladder for ultra-consistancy). If you weigh yourself at different times, with varying hydration and amounts of food in you GI tract and water in your bladder then this can mask changes. Another option of course is that your scales aren't very accurate!

The other thing to look at in terms of gaining fat whilst bulking would be your diet. Following more of a timed carbed approach might be one option worth considering, although not one I've experimenting with myself when bulking (just cutting).


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## MFM (Jul 25, 2013)

Ultrasonic said:


> Thinking back to your earlier post I realised that you said you were gaining fat but not gaining weight, is that right? If true that would suggest you are actually losing muscle, which seems unlikely.


Well, I'm gaining fat and definitely getting bigger, but cannot really see it on the scales.



Ultrasonic said:


> How often do you weigh yourself and do you always do it at the same time of day?


I do weigh myself every morning when I get up for consistency, so I'm not sure what's going on. Another weird thing is I've been measuring my arms even though they have definitely gotten noticeably bigger since I started bulking 3 months ago, they still measure the same?? Lol



Ultrasonic said:


> The other thing to look at in terms of gaining fat whilst bulking would be your diet. Following more of a timed carbed approach might be one option worth considering, although not one I've experimenting with myself when bulking (just cutting).


I did carb cycling on my cut and I must say I'm not a big fan. Only because I like things to be simple. At the moment I'm following a high carb, high protein, moderate fat diet, although it has been suggested that I up my fats and lower carbs. I'll give this a go and see. One thing I did try for a couple of weeks that worked wonders for me was intermittent fasting. I tried it during my bulk but I simply couldn't eat enough during the feeding window which meant I was eating around maintenance and got visibly leaner in those two weeks. Weight did drop a couple of kilos though, but I actually looked pretty good considering how little extra muscle I've built during this short bulk. Only reason I didn't continue with it is because I need to get considerably bigger before I'll be happy to cut again.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

MFM said:


> Well, I'm gaining fat and definitely getting bigger, but cannot really see it on the scales.


You could check your scales? Weigh yourself, and then weigh yourself holding something weighing say 500g and check your scales show the difference. (My own digital scales would fail this test FWIW. They seem to store the last weight they weighed, and only update to a different number when it differs by a fair amount. I know this will sound daft, but I get round this by always first weighing myself holding a 5 lb weight, then putting the weight down and weighing myself again to actually find my body weight!)



> Another weird thing is I've been measuring my arms even though they have definitely gotten noticeably bigger since I started bulking 3 months ago, they still measure the same?? Lol


I really hate to say this, but provided you are measuring in a consistant way then the only real conclusion is that your arms really haven't got any bigger. If you have lost some fat on your arms they could look bigger though. And actually if you have lost any fat on your arms then them measuring the same would still fit with you having gained muscle, as otherwise your arms would be smaller.



> I did carb cycling on my cut and I must say I'm not a big fan. Only because I like things to be simple.


Timed carbs is simpler than carb cycling. Merely having a carb free breakfast every day would be a mild form of timed carbs for example.



> At the moment I'm following a high carb, high protein, moderate fat diet, although it has been suggested that I up my fats and lower carbs. I'll give this a go and see.


Worth a try. How much fat do you actually have at the moment? Bear in mind that if fat intake is too low this will adversly affect your testosterone level. Have you posted up details of your diet on another thread actually? Give me a link if you have and I'll have a nose. Not that I'm an expert!



> One thing I did try for a couple of weeks that worked wonders for me was intermittent fasting. I tried it during my bulk but I simply couldn't eat enough during the feeding window which meant I was eating around maintenance and got visibly leaner in those two weeks. Weight did drop a couple of kilos though, but I actually looked pretty good considering how little extra muscle I've built during this short bulk. Only reason I didn't continue with it is because I need to get considerably bigger before I'll be happy to cut again.


It's great that you've found a way that you know you can drop body fat. That should mean that if you do gain a bit of fat bulking you know you can shift it.


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