# insulin like growth factor .



## MRSTRONG (Apr 18, 2009)

i have been speaking to an old friend of mine that has used igf in part of his gear usage whilst strength training .

i know nothing of it and seems to be little on what i want to know about it , i have read that it is shot @ 50mcg bilat in just trained muscle ?

i train chest and shoulders so do i hit 50mcg bilat chest and shoulders making 200mcg or 25mcg chest and shoulders and having a total of 100mcg ?

is the stuff any good for strength gains .

i would like info from guys that have been there and done it .

thanks in advance .


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## Benchbum (Apr 20, 2011)

I would be interested in the answer to this...


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## thoon (Apr 4, 2010)

ewen said:


> i have been speaking to an old friend of mine that has used igf in part of his gear usage whilst strength training .
> 
> i know nothing of it and seems to be little on what i want to know about it , i have read that it is shot @ 50mcg bilat in just trained muscle ? *What IGF are you referring to *
> 
> ...


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## m118 (Feb 4, 2011)

i would research igf lr3, and igf des.

NB: look at how it's used (ie when, for how long, where, and its role)


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## MRSTRONG (Apr 18, 2009)

m118 said:


> i would research igf lr3, and igf des.
> 
> NB: look at how it's used (ie when, for how long, where, and its role)


thanks , that was another question which is best lol

the only info i have found so far is on a thread you commented on also wikipedia .

hence my poor knowledge and reason for thread .

i would normally sit and read but i honestly dont know what im reading or where the info is .

thanks thoon .

looking at the 2 i can get off a pep site its a choice between igf des 1,3 1mg or Igf-1 Lr3 1mg < these mean nothing .

thanks for taking the time to answer guys .

another quickie if its to bring up a lagging bp when would gains be seen ? silly question but is it like an seo ?


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## m118 (Feb 4, 2011)

Be careful which pep sites you buy from. There's been a lot of rumours of certain sites being bunk.

IGF lr3 is tried and tested, igf-des is cheaper and has a novel ability to contort into the receptors that have altered shape due to the lactic acid build up during training which is something lr3 is unable to do. converesely, it has such a short half life it can only be used pretraining (some do post which I think is a mistake) whereas LR3 can be shot up in the morning and as such as a much more subtle but prolonged effect.

hope this helps


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## MRSTRONG (Apr 18, 2009)

m118 said:


> Be careful which pep sites you buy from. There's been a lot of rumours of certain sites being bunk.
> 
> IGF lr3 is tried and tested, igf-des is cheaper and has a novel ability to contort into the receptors that have altered shape due to the lactic acid build up during training which is something lr3 is unable to do. converesely, it has such a short half life it can only be used pretraining (some do post which I think is a mistake) whereas LR3 can be shot up in the morning and as such as a much more subtle but prolonged effect.
> 
> hope this helps


yes it does help thanks i shall gear my research towards LR3 .


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## Zangief (Aug 5, 2010)

As far as i know from my limit readings, IGF does not really promote much mass and doesn't really help with strength that much either, but mainly it's used for maintaining/cutting. It's going to be nothing compared to AAS so i'd save my monies, PM Pscarb hes up on peps


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## m118 (Feb 4, 2011)

Zangief said:


> As far as i know from my limit readings, IGF does not really promote much mass and doesn't really help with strength that much either, but mainly it's used for maintaining/cutting. It's going to be nothing compared to AAS so i'd save my monies, PM Pscarb hes up on peps


can help with cutting but i was also under the impression that igf was also injected to promote hyperplasia and so long term allow extra growth, just not immediate like AAS


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## Zangief (Aug 5, 2010)

This is quote from a MOD on another BB forum

"IGF-1 will not give you immediate strength gains like test would, it creates hyperplasia as opposed to hypertrophy. Hypertrophy is making your existing muscle cells bigger. Hyperplasia is the formation of new muscle cells and essentially changes your genetic capabilties. You can the take a cycle of test and mature these new muscle cells and find a whole new world of growth that you won't find from steroids alone"


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## MRSTRONG (Apr 18, 2009)

found this on another site .,,,

IGF-1 is a peptide roughly the same structure and size as insulin, or about 70 amino acids long. It belongs to the peptide family of substances identified as growth factors. It is a highly anabolic hormone released in the liver as well as in peripheral tissues such as skeletal muscle. In the body, IGF-1 is released in response to the presence of Human Growth Hormone (HGH). After intense resistance training, the body experiences a surge in GH and IGF, and this is one way that new muscle is built. Although GH is considered to be highly anabolic, in actuality, IGF-1 is suspected to be responsible for the primary anabolic activities of GH.

IGF-1 builds new muscle tissue by promoting nitrogen retention and protein synthesis. This causes the growth of muscles through both hyperplasia (which is an increase in number of muscle cells) and mitogenesis (which is the actual growth of new muscle fibers). Thus IGF-1 not only makes muscle fibers bigger, it makes more of them as well!

IGF-1's effects are not limited to building new muscle, however. It has a potent effect on lipid (fat) metabolism, and helps the body burn fat at a significantly elevated rate. In addition, IGF-1 is both a neuroprotector and neuropromotor, which improves mental functions such as reflexes, memory, and learning ability. IGF is also important for production of connective tissue and insuring proper bone density.

Although IGF-1 is very potent at building muscle and burning fat, the Lr3 IGF-1 version is roughly 2-3x as powerful.

Lr3IGF-1 (Long R3 Insulin-like Growth Factor-I or Long R3IGF-I) is an 83 amino acid analog of human IGF-I actually comprising the complete human IGF-1 sequence but with the substitution of an Arg for the Glu at position 3, as well as a 13 amino acid extension peptide at the N-terminus. This makes Long R3IGF-I significantly more potent (2-3x) than IGF-I in studies, because it has a lower affinity to be rendered inactive by IGF binding proteins, and consequently more potential activity in the body.

so my question now is , because its an IGF would i need to run an insulin protocol with it IE keeping blood sugar levels stable ?


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## MRSTRONG (Apr 18, 2009)

Zangief said:


> This is quote from a MOD on another BB forum
> 
> "IGF-1 will not give you immediate strength gains like test would, it creates hyperplasia as opposed to hypertrophy. Hypertrophy is making your existing muscle cells bigger. Hyperplasia is the formation of new muscle cells and essentially changes your genetic capabilties. You can the take a cycle of test and mature these new muscle cells and find a whole new world of growth that you won't find from steroids alone"


that post is my reasoning for usage ... more muscle more muscular strength .


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## luther1 (Jul 31, 2011)

I agree with the post about bunk peptide sites. Alot of them have a very high salt content which will obviously give you water retention thus leading the user to believe that the weight gain is muscle. Use a recommended supplier


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## Zangief (Aug 5, 2010)

ewen said:


> found this on another site .,,,
> 
> IGF-1 is a peptide roughly the same structure and size as insulin, or about 70 amino acids long. It belongs to the peptide family of substances identified as growth factors. It is a highly anabolic hormone released in the liver as well as in peripheral tissues such as skeletal muscle. In the body, IGF-1 is released in response to the presence of Human Growth Hormone (HGH). After intense resistance training, the body experiences a surge in GH and IGF, and this is one way that new muscle is built. Although GH is considered to be highly anabolic, in actuality, IGF-1 is suspected to be responsible for the primary anabolic activities of GH.
> 
> ...


Nice one mate, Im thinking of running some IGF-DES through my PCT and then keep running it untill my next cycle, won't be using slin though


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## m118 (Feb 4, 2011)

Zangief said:


> Nice one mate, Im thinking of running some IGF-DES through my PCT and then keep running it untill my next cycle, won't be using slin though


i would cycle it on and off eg 4 weeks on and 4 off


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## Zangief (Aug 5, 2010)

ewen said:


> that post is my reasoning for usage ... more muscle more muscular strength .


Yeah i don't imagine it would be immediate strength increases like AAS though, more of a slowly slowly catch a monkey type scenario


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## Zangief (Aug 5, 2010)

m118 said:


> i would cycle it on and off eg 4 weeks on and 4 off


Where have you read that? Most BB'ers use them all year round mate


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## Conscript (Sep 5, 2010)

So are the gains from the IGF, however small, permanent through the increased hyperplasia? Good question from Ewan regarding blood sugar levels, anyone, Ausbuilt/Pscarb.........?


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## m118 (Feb 4, 2011)

Zangief said:


> Where have you read that? Most BB'ers use them all year round mate


IIRC an experience peptide/research chem user Russianstar wrote it.


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## MRSTRONG (Apr 18, 2009)

Conscript said:


> So are the gains from the IGF, however small, permanent through the increased hyperplasia? Good question from Ewan regarding blood sugar levels, anyone, Ausbuilt/Pscarb.........?


with regards to gains being permanent they will be due to growing new muscle cells ..

EB yes stronger tendons/ligaments are something im looking into too .

please post up info and protocol on here thanks .


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## MRSTRONG (Apr 18, 2009)

Is there Amy point in just adding the igf to my oil aas and pin the whole thing ? Or is one of the benefits of igf an ability to be site enhancing ?


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## Sureno (Feb 8, 2011)

I used the turbovital stuff, wasn't impressed, studies show there are the so called non responders which I think I may of been one. Just didn't do much, which only leads me to believe that strength or hyperplasia is only achieved over a few courses of it, money spent better else where in my opinion


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## MRSTRONG (Apr 18, 2009)

Sureno said:


> I used the turbovital stuff, wasn't impressed, studies show there are the so called non responders which I think I may of been one. Just didn't do much, which only leads me to believe that strength or hyperplasia is only achieved over a few courses of it, money spent better else where in my opinion


And that from a guy 19 and half stone with a six pack lol what would you spend your money on ?


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## Sureno (Feb 8, 2011)

ewen said:


> And that from a guy 19 and half stone with a six pack lol what would you spend your money on ?


AAS, HGH and slin 

I got half a kit of igf sitting in my fridge, may save it for my PCT as supposedly it helps keep gains??? And some one has to use it up lol


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## thoon (Apr 4, 2010)

ewen said:


> thanks , that was another question which is best lol
> 
> the only info i have found so far is on a thread you commented on also wikipedia .
> 
> ...


 *You will see Pump growth after/during that w/o with DES but months down the line when new cells are created you will realy see the results .*

Have a little read in the thread about using it for lagging body parts http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/muscle-research-peptides/155310-mgf-muscle-growth-factor-site-enhancement-does-itr-really-work.html Not a quick fix but long term

You have to think of Lr3 as the Tren E and the Des as the Tren A Lr3 increases the muscle cell proliferation so 1 cell becomes 2 ect To get the full effect i do feel these peptides need to be combined to completes the job , Just using Des for instance is like making a cake put in the flour but no eggs , The Mgf Is the eggs , The Lr3 is the sugar And the pMGF is the Oven Job done a nice piece of cake ....

This is just what has worked best for me using them all together ..This does not mean its correct for everyone ..


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## thoon (Apr 4, 2010)

Conscript said:


> So are the gains from the IGF, however small, permanent through the increased hyperplasia? Good question from Ewan regarding blood sugar levels, anyone, Ausbuilt/Pscarb.........?


Yes they are permanent not the immediate gains but the ones down the line when 1 cell split in to 2 and then matures will be permanent

I am coming to the end of my 30 day cycle and my delts are Boom massive  but im not silly enough to put this down to Igf's i know that it is the blood trapped in the cells Hell i can not even jab my AAS in delts at the moment due to them being so pumped and trying to get a slin pin in there is almost impossible .. so some might believe that this is gain ..

As far as Blood sugar levels yes i find i Igf-Lr3 the worst for sucking the glucose to feed the muscle ,I like to keep carbs high for a 2 hour window around the jab times so that i can increase the window of growth wile the muscles are being flooded with nutrients and blood ..

One thing to consider wile using these peptides is you are only replicating and enhancing what your body does naturally so timing and understanding is key


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## MRSTRONG (Apr 18, 2009)

Sureno said:


> AAS, HGH and slin
> 
> I got half a kit of igf sitting in my fridge, may save it for my PCT as supposedly it helps keep gains??? And some one has to use it up lol


nothing wrong with giving brother  shall i hold my hands out and say `please sir can i have some` :lol:


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## MRSTRONG (Apr 18, 2009)

thoon said:


> Yes they are permanent not the immediate gains but the ones down the line when 1 cell split in to 2 and then matures will be permanent
> 
> I am coming to the end of my 30 day cycle and my delts are Boom massive  but im not silly enough to put this down to Igf's i know that it is the blood trapped in the cells Hell i can not even jab my AAS in delts at the moment due to them being so pumped and trying to get a slin pin in there is almost impossible .. so some might believe that this is gain ..
> 
> ...


good posts fella , so this is where my knowledge is at .

i should mix lr3 and des (same barrel ? 50mcg of each compound =100mcg lr3 and 100mcg des ?) and shoot bilat or lagging body parts (hope my wife dont read this she`ll pin my cock) .

to make the most of it i would shoot it pre training 4 weeks on 4 off and add creatine whey and dextrose or glucose ? within 2 hours .

and do this over the course of 1 year ?

my aim is to increase cells then make bigger/stronger .

how does that sound am i way off it ?


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## Sureno (Feb 8, 2011)

ewen said:


> nothing wrong with giving brother  shall i hold my hands out and say `please sir can i have some` :lol:


No of course not my man, can't guarantee you'll get igf in your hands but you should give it a go mate, always did like the feeling of someone cupping my balls


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## MRSTRONG (Apr 18, 2009)

Sureno said:


> No of course not my man, can't guarantee you'll get igf in your hands but you should give it a go mate, always did like the feeling of someone cupping my balls


can you leave some stubble on yer balls please so i can grate my calloused hands :lol:


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## ba baracuss (Apr 26, 2004)

If you're wanting to create new cells and then mature them with gear, have you read dutch scott's sticky thread? If not then have a read.


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## MRSTRONG (Apr 18, 2009)

ba baracuss said:


> If you're wanting to create new cells and then mature them with gear, have you read dutch scott's sticky thread? If not then have a read.


ive read the one about trying to recreate an environment based around puberty is that the one you mean ?


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## thoon (Apr 4, 2010)

ewen said:


> good posts fella , so this is where my knowledge is at .
> 
> i should mix lr3 and des (same barrel ? 50mcg of each compound =100mcg lr3 and 100mcg des ?) and shoot bilat or lagging body parts (hope my wife dont read this she`ll pin my cock) .
> 
> ...


Not way off mate but are you set on running Lr3 and des or open to changing things around a bit ? If so First 30 days use Des and Mgf then cruse then Lr3 and Mgf ..In my eyes MGF is the key here .

These are just methods that i have found work best for me


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## MRSTRONG (Apr 18, 2009)

thoon said:


> Not way off mate but are you set on running Lr3 and des or open to changing things around a bit ? If so First 30 days use Des and Mgf then cruse then Lr3 and Mgf ..In my eyes MGF is the key here .
> 
> These are just methods that i have found work best for me


thanks m8 but it just seems like im unable to process the info at present as i just dont have a clue lol .

thanks for your help i think i should just stick to aas for the time being .


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## MRSTRONG (Apr 18, 2009)

Empire Boy said:


> Not to make things worse, but I started the 'slin this week, and I know its partly placebo, but I can feel the increased pump and strength in conjunction with the GHRH/GHRP...it seems the only way to really get IGF-1 to stimulate immature muscle cells is via insuin, it needs to be natty IGF...injecting IGF-LR3 or DES just seems to do f'all compared to natty IGF from what I have read...And plenty of threads I have read of people experiencing intense strength off 'slin...it makes sense...I hope to once again compete in pl soon, so all I'm training only for strength at the moment...I know 'slin is dangerous of course, and can kill you, but I think this is over-rated, as long as you have your dextrose measured out with your whey, buy the humalog, one of the fastest working insulins, and then closely monitor 15min post shot...then consume a high low gi carb source meal with high animal protein one hour post shot, measure bg at 90min, if its low, then consume some dextrose. Then 2 hours have a similar meal as the one hour, but less carbs. Then monitor 2.5hours...then 4 hours I have a whey shake. Honest truth, just to day, at 4ui then 5ui, I can feel a distinct pump and my weight has moved from 214 to 216, but I do not feel fatter in the least...today is squats, my weakest lift, I'll let you know how i get on, as i am week 6 into my wendler, so weight is getting tougher...I'm getting pretty tuned to my lifts, so we'll see how it goes...


i have a fair idea on slin and how to use it but i have 2 issues with it first is i train at 7-9pm then bed by 10-10:30 second is my wife (i dont have life insurance lol )

if i had my protocol down to a T so i could go to bed safely then fair play .


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## MRSTRONG (Apr 18, 2009)

Empire Boy said:


> THe humalog is safe 100% safe after 4 hours, so I see what you mean. It doesn't get much quicker than this...You would have to stay up until 1am to play it safe...are there any days that you train earlier, or is it always 7-9pm full stop...It seems slin, just 2x a week PWO would increase strength...again, can't be sure as I'm all new to this...but give me 3 weeks and I'll report, as I will attempt 1 rm on all 3 lifts during the cycle of slin, and not on any aas, just the peps and slin, no fat burners either, except low dose T3...


would be good to hear your results .

i train 7-9 4x week i could do slin once a week on a sat after event training but thats not enough .


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## thoon (Apr 4, 2010)

Sounds more complicated than it really is mate

Empire ... I have to consume more carbs PWO wile using Slin on a leg day ,, Just keep a eye mate


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## Sureno (Feb 8, 2011)

Slin is great on my 2nd proper 4week cycle now after a few attempts just learning the drug.

I have to stress I feel

Metformin plays a vital role to

Continuous gains as this time round I feel the slin is less sensitive so will try metformin on my off period (some do igf here too)

08:00 Wake up

08:30 4iu HGH and peanut butter on whole

09:00 train

10:30 pwo shake 100g sugars 50g whey

11:30 200g rice 200g meat, veg + snickers bar

11:35 2x10mg dbol and 10iu slin

12:30 150g oats 30g vitargo 60g whey

14:00 200g rice 200g meat, veg

15:30 150g oats 60g whey

17:30/18:00 250g rice 200g meat, veg 2x10mg +snickers bar

10iu slin

19:00 150g oats, 30g vitargo 60g whey

Then I eat what ever when ever and a protein shake before bed around 23:00

Always have a couple "high energy gels" on me incase

BUT I'm re assessing all this to accommodate mixing my HGH and slin together some how


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

Thoon can you explain in more detail what you mean in this part of the thread on MT please?



> Igf-Des can have a negative loop due to its receptor affinity it can cancel out Mgf and also GH so that means Ghrp's also so watch out for that with regards to timing's
> 
> IGF-Lr3 works more systematicy so wont blunt your own body's Mgf production
> 
> Never mix or administer Igf's and Mgf's together or Igf will burnout the MGF


could you explain how IGF-Des has such a negative loop in its very short life to cancel out MGF/GH and GHRP's/GHRH peptides?

whan you say IGF will burn out the MGF do you mean at the receptor?


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## MRSTRONG (Apr 18, 2009)

Pscarb said:


> Thoon can you explain in more detail what you mean in this part of the thread on MT please?
> 
> could you explain how IGF-Des has such a negative loop in its very short life to cancel out MGF/GH and GHRP's/GHRH peptides?
> 
> whan you say IGF will burn out the MGF do you mean at the receptor?


paul if you were wanting to solely increase strength and not care about size or condition just brute strength what PED route would you go down ?

dont get me wrong i love this board it is great BUT its in general a bodybuilding board and i train for strength so im unsure if i can find a solid answer here , having said that there are a few of you guys that know your stuff through hard work and research which is why i started this thread .

im not looking for magic as it dont exist but i am looking for a good solid non taxing route as high dose cycles are in the long run not good .


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## Sureno (Feb 8, 2011)

Empire Boy said:


> You have any T4 in the mix? Aus posted a good link to Anthony Roberts article (I know the guy is a douche bag, but this article makes sense)...looking at how T4, not T3, can aide the HGH...


i ran the T4 thing before, had the way it made me feel and didnt really notice anything, now that i have slin i have been toying with re adding it as im not sure i think all i would appreciate is the increased protein turnover but at 100mcg its debatable if you have a fully functioning thyroid


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## Sureno (Feb 8, 2011)

yeah im familiar with the article, only problem is what i later on learnt, is that if your body has a fully functioning thyroid it will not convert T4-T3 if it is not needed, so its sort of a catch 22???


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

ewen said:


> paul if you were wanting to solely increase strength and not care about size or condition just brute strength what PED route would you go down ? .


Insulin mate, IGF/MGF and even GH on its own will do nothing noticeable for your strength, a good Insulin protocol will in my opinion.

using it PWO at first then add in a breakfast dose as you need to......#

Guys this T4/T3 issue when using GH is not a must no matter what that very old and outdated article written by Roberts says.......for someone with a normal thyroid output there is no NEED to use either T3 or T4, it will increase the effects of GH but this is mainly down to the fact that thyroid meds increase metabolism so fat burning will be enhanced but they are not needed.


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## MRSTRONG (Apr 18, 2009)

Pscarb said:


> Insulin mate, IGF/MGF and even GH on its own will do nothing noticeable for your strength, a good Insulin protocol will in my opinion.
> 
> using it PWO at first then add in a breakfast dose as you need to......#
> 
> Guys this T4/T3 issue when using GH is not a must no matter what that very old and outdated article written by Roberts says.......for someone with a normal thyroid output there is no NEED to use either T3 or T4, it will increase the effects of GH but this is mainly down to the fact that thyroid meds increase metabolism so fat burning will be enhanced but they are not needed.


thanks for reply m8 .

ok another question for you .

my training time/s are 7-9pm this i cannot change but do sometimes train on a sat 12-4 , so would would be the safest protocol to use ?

at current i eat around half and hour post training something like chilli and rice but can adapt to suit slin usage i understand taking in 10g of simple carbs per iu of slin both would be done straight after my last rep in the gym .

so as above how can i avoid death and use slin in its safest possible manner ?


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## Sureno (Feb 8, 2011)

iv taken fast acting slin 3hrs prior to training, i dont think the immediate effect of slin makes you stronger but the refuelling of muscle caused by slin has you ready to push heavier i think? so i dont think, although could be quite easily wrong, insulin effect is time dependant to training, as long as your protocol is correct you will feel the overall fulness and strength


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

you could add the slin to each meal you have carbs with mate starting at 4ius on 2 meals per day then increase this, personnely i would only use slin 3 days a week for safety


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## Sureno (Feb 8, 2011)

Pscarb said:


> you could add the slin to each meal you have carbs with mate starting at 4ius on 2 meals per day then increase this, personnely i would only use slin 3 days a week for safety


Safety as in against resistance and secondly each slin meal should be about 4hrs apart for fast slin to avoid overlapping right?


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## MRSTRONG (Apr 18, 2009)

Pscarb said:


> you could add the slin to each meal you have carbs with mate starting at 4ius on 2 meals per day then increase this, personnely i would only use slin 3 days a week for safety


thanks .

ok so heres what im thinking let me know what you think (or anybody else)

meal 1 is heavy carb and lots of protein . i would shoot 4iu of slin just after this meal around 6:20 am

meal 2 (8am ish) 1 bananas 1 apple 40g simple carbs shake with 40g protein and 5 g creatine .

i put the above in that order due to work commitments would that be ok ?

second shot

around 4:30pm 4iu slin 40g simple carbs 40g protein 5g creatine

meal 5 - 5-5:30pm 2 quarter pounder beef burgers and homemade shake

train at 7pm

9:15 chilli and rice

before bed quark .

i missed a couple meals out but can list them if need be i just wanted to see how far off if i am .

thanks


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## Sureno (Feb 8, 2011)

Fast slin peaks about 1.5hrs in, this is when I need a shake, start with 10g carbs for every iu slin


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## MRSTRONG (Apr 18, 2009)

Sureno said:


> Fast slin peaks about 1.5hrs in, this is when I need a shake, start with 10g carbs for every iu slin


so then id be on the money ?


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## Sureno (Feb 8, 2011)

ewen said:


> so then id be on the money ?


You'll be allowed in the club big boy


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## MRSTRONG (Apr 18, 2009)

Sureno said:


> You'll be allowed in the club big boy


you mean its time to hold out my hands while you drop your bollocks into them ??

COOL


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## Sureno (Feb 8, 2011)

ewen said:


> you mean its time to hold out my hands while you drop your bollocks into them ??
> 
> COOL


Yeah basically, hope you got big hands


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## MRSTRONG (Apr 18, 2009)

Sureno said:


> Yeah basically, hope you got big hands


 :blink: ive got hands like jeremy beadles ...... your balls will look normal size when i cup em :clap:


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## Sureno (Feb 8, 2011)

ewen said:


> :blink: ive got hands like jeremy beadles ...... your balls will look normal size when i cup em :clap:


Ssshhhh don't tell uriel that, he wants me to Tea bag him till he gags the dirty pervert


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## MRSTRONG (Apr 18, 2009)

Empire Boy said:


> I'd be worried about those beef burgers 1.5 hours post insulin...too much fat in beef burgers...also, might want to consider the standard PWO protocol, even though your training times are late...you would only have to do it twice a week for 3 weeks, as you can do it PWO on saturday (this would mean stayin up until 12:30am twice a week...) if this went well, and you see how you respond to slin PWO in the very controlled environment of home, you could jump into the morning and pre work-out shots...as Pscarb says, x3 a week anyways is plenty...and run it alongside a GHRH/GHRP to get the synergism between slin and GH...
> 
> Reading more, Pscarb and Sureno are right, thyroid hormones are not necessary...but the GH and the up-regulation of IGF-1 by the slin seem to be pretty potent in for strength gains over a period of time..
> 
> My squat and leg accessory work went ok today, I'm on wave 3, so things are getting tough, and I really felt the weight was heavy...but I did 8ui tonight PWO, and like yesterday felt a distinct pump during workout that was as good as when on var or tbol...But keeping it simple and very controlled for a first time is the way I'm going...granted you have much more experience with PEDs than me...but the only thing above I'd worry about is not being in a controlled environment after both 4ui shots above, and eating a high fat meal 1.5 hours post one of the shots...I'd struggle with a little sleep deprivation during the day if it meant I was in more control during the first time with slin...but all this is just IMO!!! I'm a control freak, and tend to over-do the precautionary measures....you should have seen my supplement regime when on aas, I made the number of pills a cancer patient WITH Hiv/Aids would have to take look tame...and all this is coming from s noob 3 days into their first slin cycle...


cheers buddy as for getting less slep its not really an option as i suffer with sleep apnea and already find myself snoozing when working driving or sitting for any length of time although i do have an appointment for this on monday .

i think a slin and aas route is the most likely for me .

as i understand i should take simple carbs with slin and complex carb meal within the hour to safe guard , now if thats the case then its not an issue as i can have a complex carb meal before bed .

i dont mind gaining fat either not too much mind but bodyweight helps to pull them trucks .


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## MRSTRONG (Apr 18, 2009)

im a gardener but plenty of time to test bg .

i had thought about a low dose hgh intake just for the freshness feeling it reportedly gives you plus the creation of cells over time .


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## thoon (Apr 4, 2010)

Pscarb said:


> Thoon can you explain in more detail what you mean in this part of the thread on MT please?
> 
> could you explain how IGF-Des has such a negative loop in its very short life to cancel out MGF/GH and GHRP's/GHRH peptides?
> 
> whan you say IGF will burn out the MGF do you mean at the receptor?


Sorry for the late reply life just got a little busy lately ..

Corrected that should have been Lr3 as i rote that reply about 3 am

So if you was to jab Lr3 pre w/o it would be still active post hence blunting MGF

This is where my info comes from on Igf + GH

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9920097

http://jcem.endojournals.org/content/85/10/3604.full.pdf


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