# Another How big can a natty get thread



## MrBrown786 (Apr 17, 2014)

I saw one of these posts before but never gave my input on how big can your arms get natty.

Anj Baig fellow Asian , owner of PMG Walthamstow / Harrow is ridiculously hench for being a suspected natty, now I'm only speculating he could be on some juice but here's a couple of pics one next to ZKK.

Thoughts?


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## DappaDonDave (Dec 2, 2013)

rich Piana big...


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## zyphy (Jun 23, 2014)

DappaDonDave said:


> rich Piana big...


As long as you eat real food bro


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## DappaDonDave (Dec 2, 2013)

zyphy said:


> As long as you eat real food bro


Like protein porridge, protein bars, protein crisps, protein shakes, protein rice, protein flapjacks, chicken, protein dessert and casein for beddy times?


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## MrBrown786 (Apr 17, 2014)

DappaDonDave said:


> Like protein porridge, protein bars, protein crisps, protein shakes, protein rice, protein flapjacks, chicken, protein dessert and casein for beddy times?


Lol? I eat protein nails in a bowl made out of solid whey protein


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## DappaDonDave (Dec 2, 2013)

MrBrown786 said:


> Lol? I eat protein nails in a bowl made out of solid whey protein


I eat all my meals out of a protein tub, if I'm on the go, I take a protein bag instead


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## aman_21 (Jul 29, 2013)

about this big natty


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## graham58 (Apr 7, 2013)

MrBrown786 said:


> I saw one of these posts before but never gave my input on how big can your arms get natty.
> 
> Anj Baig fellow Asian , owner of PMG Walthamstow / Harrow is ridiculously hench for being a suspected natty, now I'm only speculating he could be on some juice but here's a couple of pics one next to ZKK.
> 
> Thoughts?


they dont look natty to me.:no:


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## wylde99 (Feb 23, 2008)

aman_21 said:


> about this big natty


Arnold was not Natty I recall Him saying he did Dianabol.


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## MrBrown786 (Apr 17, 2014)

graham58 said:


> they dont look natty to me.:no:


Zack Khan isn't natty of course but Anj has massive shoulders and arms but small chest, no lats


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## The-Real-Deal (Dec 5, 2014)

I don't see why there has to be a set limit for a natural BB to hit. Everyone is different. IMO as long as you stress your body in the correct way and support growth with the correct nutrition you will grow. Its the bodies natural way of coping with these stresses. You adapt to the stresses you put your body under.


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## MrBrown786 (Apr 17, 2014)

> I don't see why there has to be a set limit for a natural BB to hit. Everyone is different. IMO as long as you stress your body in the correct way and support growth with the correct nutrition you will grow. Its the bodies natural way of coping with these stresses. You adapt to the stresses you put your body under.


Just being a sheep mate curious as others , look at Scott Herman for e.g YouTube guy been bulking for ages still looks same that's hus probable genetic limit unless he juices, then Anj is a huge difference.


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## SkinnyJ (Apr 21, 2012)

This is probaly the best example you will find. Mike O Hern is the ambassador of Natural body building - Hes been tested and is 100% clean ( ignore what the haters say)

So if youre wiling to train your ass off and eat 6 meals a day for 20 years you might get somewhere close, but remember this guy has Amazing genetics.

View attachment 164956


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## MrBrown786 (Apr 17, 2014)

SkinnyJ said:


> This is probaly the best example you will find. Mike O Hern is the ambassador of Natural body building - Hes been tested and is 100% clean ( ignore what the haters say)
> 
> So if youre wiling to train your ass off and eat 6 meals a day for 20 years you might get somewhere close, but remember this guy has Amazing genetics.
> 
> View attachment 164956


If that is true that's pretty sick, maintaining that would be a mission and a half. What of simoen panda? Blatant juice?


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## biggestdog2007 (Apr 7, 2010)

SkinnyJ said:


> This is probaly the best example you will find. Mike O Hern is the ambassador of Natural body building - Hes been tested and is 100% clean ( ignore what the haters say)
> 
> So if youre wiling to train your ass off and eat 6 meals a day for 20 years you might get somewhere close, but remember this guy has Amazing genetics.
> 
> View attachment 164956


You misspelled his name.....

Its now officially Mike O'Tren!


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## The-Real-Deal (Dec 5, 2014)

MrBrown786 said:


> Just being a sheep mate curious as others , look at Scott Herman for e.g YouTube guy been bulking for ages still looks same that's hus probable genetic limit unless he juices, then Anj is a huge difference.


Lol Ive just had a quick look. He ain't training right for bulking/size IMO plus whats his nutrition like? He has no thickness or real size/substance to his muscles. He is looking lean-ish though.


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## MrBrown786 (Apr 17, 2014)

> Lol Ive just had a quick look. He ain't training right for bulking/size IMO plus whats his nutrition like? He has no thickness or real size/substance to his muscles. He is looking lean-ish though.


He's sponsored by BSN, his nutrition is on point he's been training for 15 years or so. He likes to stay lean that's why like no fat clean foods only


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## havering (May 14, 2013)

MrBrown786 said:


> What of simoen panda? Blatant juice?


Without a doubt yes.


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## b0t13 (Jan 3, 2013)

Still waiting for pictures of a natty in this thread....


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## IGotTekkers (Jun 6, 2012)

DappaDonDave said:


> Like protein porridge, protein bars, protein crisps, protein shakes, protein rice, protein flapjacks, chicken, protein dessert and casein for beddy times?


Only if they are 5% nutrition branded.


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## SkinnyJ (Apr 21, 2012)

b0t13 said:


> Still waiting for pictures of a natty in this thread....


Did you miss my post?


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## monkeybiker (Jul 21, 2010)

Doesn't look like an obvious user to me.


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## The-Real-Deal (Dec 5, 2014)

MrBrown786 said:


> He's sponsored by BSN, his nutrition is on point he's been training for 15 years or so. He likes to stay lean that's why like no fat clean foods only


He needs to get his training right for putting on any real size.


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## b0t13 (Jan 3, 2013)

SkinnyJ said:


> Did you miss my post?


Mike o tren? That pic is either one of two things

1 heavily edited to make him look a lot better

2 juice, got some nice vascular it's down his arms for a natty  never mind the hardness, leanness and muscle size at the same time, and has amazing genetics to stay like that year round 

Not sure if srs!?


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## SkinnyJ (Apr 21, 2012)

b0t13 said:


> Mike o tren? That pic is either one of two things
> 
> 1 heavily edited to make him look a lot better
> 
> ...


The guys has been training for over 20 years, he has a solid nutrition plan and trains like an animal. He is leading the way in what is achievable naturally and has passed drugs tests - what more can you want?


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## The-Real-Deal (Dec 5, 2014)

Merkleman said:


> yes ,,you can build quite gfood physiqwe with out hormones,,yes!,,it will not be thick physiqe,,it wil nto be big physiqe ,, it wil be in conditioned physiqe that will give the illusion of more size than it truly is ,,USUALY 15 LB ILLUSION,, yes you will have to have some ingredients that will have to be there inorder to do it,,
> 
> 1. tann ,,you will have to be on the beach a lot of finish the air spray bottles like a chica in heat,,
> 
> ...


PMSL What a total load of bolix.......IMHO......:laugh: This has to be the most ill informed post I have ever read. There are certain exercises which give you thickness for example.


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## biggestdog2007 (Apr 7, 2010)

SkinnyJ said:


> The guys has been training for over 20 years, he has a solid nutrition plan and trains like an animal. He is leading the way in what is achievable naturally and has passed drugs tests - what more can you want?


Get a grip mate he is on a lot of juice.

Lance armstrong passed stringent drug tests for 14yrs. Doesnt mean ****!


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## Smitch (Dec 29, 2008)

MrBrown786 said:


> I saw one of these posts before but never gave my input on how big can your arms get natty.
> 
> Anj Baig fellow Asian , owner of PMG Walthamstow / Harrow is ridiculously hench for being a suspected natty, now I'm only speculating he could be on some juice but here's a couple of pics one next to ZKK.
> 
> Thoughts?


My bird is watching Desi Rascals as we speak, it's got that Anj fella in it.

Suppose he could be natural, I doubt it though, most likely on gear but sh1t scared that his parents and community would disown him if his drug use got out so denies it!


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## MrBrown786 (Apr 17, 2014)

SkinnyJ said:


> The guys has been training for over 20 years, he has a solid nutrition plan and trains like an animal. He is leading the way in what is achievable naturally and has passed drugs tests - what more can you want?


I think he wants jam on it.


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## MrBrown786 (Apr 17, 2014)

Smitch said:


> My bird is watching Desi Rascals as we speak, it's got that Anj fella in it.
> 
> Suppose he could be natural, I doubt it though, most likely on gear but sh1t scared that his parents and community would disown him if his drug use got out so denies it!


Or a suggested theory all pics I've seen of him could all be post workout creating illusions. Desi rascals is pretty good liking it so far


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## Marcus2014 (Mar 24, 2014)

Mike O'tren is most deffinatly on gear. You can blatantly see that there's no way you can be that strong,lean,vascular and full when natty. But stillncredit too the guy he looks amazing and strong as **** So......

Chris jones has a good physic and he's natty.


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## SkinnyJ (Apr 21, 2012)

View attachment 164964


Literally not understanding how you guys think you cant get that physique naturally. Hes been training 20 years and its not like hes ronnie coleman size.

ITs called HARD WORK!


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## Marcus2014 (Mar 24, 2014)

SkinnyJ said:


> View attachment 164964
> 
> 
> Literally not understanding how you guys think you cant get that physique naturally. Hes been training 20 years and its not like hes ronnie coleman size.
> ...


Mike O'Hearn Legs Training 2015 ( Bodybuilding TV ): Mike O'Hearn Legs Training 2015 ( Bodybuilding TV ) - YouTube

Tell me that's not a deca face right there


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## EpicSquats (Mar 29, 2014)

> He needs to get his training right for putting on any real size.


Maybe he wants to look like that and doesn't want to get any bigger.


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## EpicSquats (Mar 29, 2014)

Mike O'hearn has the classic vascular AAS look.


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## Abc987 (Sep 26, 2013)

There's no way he's natty


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## b0t13 (Jan 3, 2013)

Gotta be trolling, or naive to what's achievable natty, half the people in natty contests aren't even natty lol and that's 'tested'


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## TommyBananas (Nov 23, 2014)

How you guys can't tell SkinnyJ is trolling I'll never know, lol.


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## IC1 (Aug 1, 2014)

You might be lucky to get to this size naturally


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## RowRow (Nov 17, 2011)

In a sentence "not that big really"


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## EpicSquats (Mar 29, 2014)

IC1 said:


> You might be lucky to get to this size naturally


Wouldn't be at all surprised if he was juicing to be honest.


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## The-Real-Deal (Dec 5, 2014)

EpicSquats said:


> Maybe he wants to look like that and doesn't want to get any bigger.


Exactly this^^^^



RowRow said:


> In a sentence "not that big really"


Define big.

If you go off Joe soap from the street. then someone who is average height, 16 stone 10-12%% bf and 18" arms naturally, your quite a big bloke. However this size is not big in comparison with the pro BB who juice.

It basically comes down to "some" ASS users struggle to get this size on the gear so they THINK its not possible natty. The bottom line is they struggle because they don't have a fcuking clue what they are doing in the gym.... This goes for ASS USERS AND NATTYS ALIKE.


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## RowRow (Nov 17, 2011)

> Exactly this^^^^
> 
> Define big.
> 
> ...


For me I class Big as walking past someone and your jaw dropping because they are that big, that they are just Huge. Only done it to 3 guys in real life. One is Lukas Gabris, another two are doormen in Liverpool. I class big as like 21st plus to put it in a weight category but with abs. I know some people will say well Arnie and flex wheeler and so on were not that heavy but were big.

for me they are bigger than me but not what i call big. Jay Cutler, Ronnie, Evan centopani, Kai, Derek Poundstone are what i call big.

Big is where i want to get bigger than me is just a stage i will cross.


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## The-Real-Deal (Dec 5, 2014)

A couple of my work mates are 6-6, 6-5, & 6-7 they are naturally 18+ stone and don't look fat, they look normal! They are like this without even looking at a weight.

If these guys trained naturally they would look fkn huge never mind if they used ASS.


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## MrBrown786 (Apr 17, 2014)

EpicSquats said:


> Wouldn't be at all surprised if he was juicing to be honest.


probably on that muscletech


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## Heavyassweights (Jan 18, 2014)

SkinnyJ said:


> The guys has been training for over 20 years, he has a solid nutrition plan and trains like an animal. He is leading the way in what is achievable naturally and has passed drugs tests - what more can you want?


Your in my top5 faves now.


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## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

Naive people............Naive people everywhere.


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## Dan94 (Dec 29, 2013)

IC1 said:


> You might be lucky to get to this size naturally


And he's not even natty


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## nWo (Mar 25, 2014)

100% natural, don't even argue:


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## Tomahawk (Dec 24, 2014)

> I don't see why there has to be a set limit for a natural BB to hit. Everyone is different. IMO as long as you stress your body in the correct way and support growth with the correct nutrition you will grow. Its the bodies natural way of coping with these stresses. You adapt to the stresses you put your body under.


By the same logic you can say that women can also grow forever. There reaches a certain point where the body simply doesn't grow bigger, or if it does, only by very small amounts.


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## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

Tomahawk said:


> By the same logic you can say that women can also grow forever. There reaches a certain point where the body simply doesn't grow bigger, or if it does, only by very small amounts.


You are right, everyone maxes out at different levels

You see the guys win the Brits and then go up against the pros and look like children, no matter what they do they cant compete.

A perfect example is Paul George, a fantastic physique granted, but he just couldnt get any bigger once he hit a certain point.


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## #93 (Oct 12, 2014)

Probably best to look at some top level rugby players to see what can be achieved naturally (not that I believe they're all innocent, I know of a few who used things they shouldn't have!)


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## The-Real-Deal (Dec 5, 2014)

Tomahawk said:


> By the same logic you can say that women can also grow forever. There reaches a certain point where the body simply doesn't grow bigger, or if it does, only by very small amounts.


Bingo....So the limiting factor must be down to the natural amounts of masculine hormones within the body. I think we all knew this already. But what are these natural limits/thresholds within the human body.

does the body not adapt to combat the stresses its under?


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## b0t13 (Jan 3, 2013)

> Bingo....So the limiting factor must be down to the natural amounts of masculine hormones within the body. I think we all knew this already. But what are these natural limits/thresholds within the human body.
> 
> does the body not adapt to combat the stresses its under?


Yup that's effectively what going to the gym is for, causing the stress so the body adapts, once you've adapted so far and grew so far there's not enough test left to keep adapting, then if it was real stress you'd die after that as you can no longer adapt any further

Once juice comes in it puts more chemicals in that the body doesn't produce itself, therefore increasing this adaption limit, then when u hit the upper level of that you die again, unless you add MORE chemicals lol

We are just walking bags of chemicals and blood lol


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## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

b0t13 said:


> Yup that's effectively what going to the gym is for, causing the stress so the body adapts, once you've adapted so far and grew so far there's not enough test left to keep adapting, then if it was real stress you'd die after that as you can no longer adapt any further
> 
> *Once juice comes in it puts more chemicals in that the body doesn't produce itself, therefore increasing this adaption limit, then when u hit the upper level of that you die again, unless you add MORE chemicals lol*
> 
> We are just walking bags of chemicals and blood lol


Until you hit your genetic limit, more chemicals doesnt equal more gains , everyone has a limit no matter how much they take.


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## cas (Jan 9, 2011)

Have any of you tried to be big AND lean at the same time while being natty? Personally I can't do it. I bulk and I do get big....but as soon as I diet the fat off I end up back to the size I was.

Now I am not saying one can't do it, given 20 years. But for myself its impossible. I can't get to mikes size even WITH gear. Doesn't mean someone else can't though


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## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

cas said:


> Have any of you tried to be big AND lean at the same time while being natty? Personally I can't do it. I bulk and I do get big....but as soon as I diet the fat off I end up back to the size I was.
> 
> Now I am not saying one can't do it, given 20 years. But for myself its impossible. I can't get to mikes size even WITH gear. Doesn't mean someone else can't though


A guy 5'10 at 6% BF isnt going to get over 185lbs natural.


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## Info Junkie (Nov 22, 2013)

banzi said:


> A guy 5'10 at 6% BF isnt going to get over 185lbs natural.


Ya I think could be true ha started bulking on 3000cals got bit fuller looking and bit of fat and strength I am now 200lbs if I dieted back to 6% fat id be 185 again haha


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## cas (Jan 9, 2011)

banzi said:


> A guy 5'10 at 6% BF isnt going to get over 185lbs natural.


He will be able to get way past 185, but he will look fat as fvck lol


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## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

cas said:


> He will be able to get way past 185, but he will look fat as fvck lol


hes 6%BF, thats the point of my post.


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## Info Junkie (Nov 22, 2013)

banzi said:


> hes 6%BF, thats the point of my post.


So for me to be 200lb 6%bf at 5ft10 I defo defo need to juice even if I spent 10more years natural I couldn't get there? Don't worry I plan on cycling soon your not been an influence haha , I am 200lb now but as you said I am about 15%bf


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## cas (Jan 9, 2011)

Info Junkie said:


> So for me to be 200lb 6%bf at 5ft10 I defo defo need to juice even if I spent 10more years natural I couldn't get there? Don't worry I plan on cycling soon your not been an influence haha , I am 200lb now but as you said I am about 15%bf


Well only time will tell.....but in ten years time your natty test is just going to decrease. I mean its not impossible, but it is very unlikely


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## Info Junkie (Nov 22, 2013)

cas said:


> Well only time will tell.....but in ten years time your natty test is just going to decrease. I mean its not impossible, but it is very unlikely


I have literally below range test levels lol I have a pitutary tumour have toke TRT yet


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## cas (Jan 9, 2011)

Plus it depends on your starting point. So at 6% bf you have a fair way to bulk to 15-20% bf

Where as I find it hard even reaching 10-12% bf so my bulking periods are much shorter....before I have to start dieting again


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## megatron (Apr 21, 2004)

Dumbest thread ever, everyone is on gear


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## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

Info Junkie said:


> *So for me to be 200lb 6%bf at 5ft10 I defo defo need to juice *even if I spent 10more years natural I couldn't get there? Don't worry I plan on cycling soon your not been an influence haha , I am 200lb now but as you said I am about 15%bf


yep.


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## lukeyybrown1 (Jun 4, 2014)

a friend of zak khan's is natural? yeah for sure bro


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## hardmadegains (Mar 28, 2014)

I thought there was a way to work out roughly somebodies limit, I don't know how Genetics come into it...

These are the two biggest "natural" guys I know.. Chris Jones and latsbrah, im skeptical though... Latsbrah ( the white guy) has proven his natural gains many times, swears by no alcohol and amazing Genetics.. It's plausible he's not insanely ripped which for me rings alarm bells... We all now how hard it is to cut without drugs. What you think?


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## Fortis (Oct 20, 2012)

Kali:thumbup1:


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## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

hardmadegains said:


> I thought there was a way to work out roughly somebodies limit, I don't know how Genetics come into it...
> 
> These are the two biggest "natural" guys I know.. Chris Jones and latsbrah, im skeptical though... Latsbrah ( the white guy) has proven his natural gains many times, swears by no alcohol and amazing Genetics.. It's plausible he's not insanely ripped which for me rings alarm bells... *We all now how hard it is to cut without drugs.* What you think?


No it isnt, cutting is the easy part, gaining size is the hard part.


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## hardmadegains (Mar 28, 2014)

Sorry all I meant by that was imo the hardest part of being natural was cutting, it's so easy to get wrong and lose all your hard earned muscle, feeling like **** ect ect so for when when you see these huge ripped guys who are sub 5% I find it hard to believe


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## Big ape (May 5, 2011)

lol the asian guy at the start who owns pmg is juiced up to hes eye balls ... i live in walthamstow and been to that gym and got a few pals that train there


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## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

hardmadegains said:


> Sorry all I meant by that was imo the hardest part of being natural was cutting, it's so easy to get wrong and lose all your hard earned muscle, feeling like **** ect ect so for when when you see these huge ripped guys who are sub 5% I find it hard to believe


Steroids are not designed to help you lose bodyfat.

Agreed some that raise body temp can assist but its negligable.


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## hardmadegains (Mar 28, 2014)

I am aware of that thanks, this thread is about being natural, cutting is all about diet, the gear helps you maintain muscle while in a calorific defecit


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## cas (Jan 9, 2011)

banzi said:


> No it isnt, cutting is the easy part, gaining size is the hard part.


Gaining size is pretty easy for me to a extent. He meant holding on to muscle tissue while being on a calorie restricted diet without being on drugs. Which is near on impossible to do (for me at least)


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## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

> We all now how hard it is to cut without drugs.





hardmadegains said:


> I am aware of that thanks, this thread is about being natural, *cutting is all about diet,* the gear helps you maintain muscle while in a calorific defecit


 :confused1:


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## utterlybutterly (Jan 26, 2015)

shredded

natty

huge

pick 2


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## hardmadegains (Mar 28, 2014)

banzi said:


> :confused1:


I'm saying it's hard not impossible... Obviously using Anabolics while in a calorific deficit helps maintain muscle mass therefore making it easier, for example whilst using tren iv read about people only consuming carbs before and after a workout... Something I would not like to do naturally!

What are you gettin at? I think your missing the point of this thread


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## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

hardmadegains said:


> I'm saying it's hard not impossible... Obviously using Anabolics while in a calorific deficit helps maintain muscle mass therefore making it easier, for example whilst using tren iv read about people only consuming carbs before and after a workout... Something I would not like to do naturally!
> 
> What are you gettin at? I think your missing the point of this thread


If you want me to be honest I would say natty bodybuilding is a waste of time

Just lift weights for fitness and tone if you want to be natty.

You need to stop looking at theses guys claiming natty walking around at 200lbs shredded, its not happening, you need to have realistic expectations.

You can get as ripped natty as you can with anabolics, unfortunately you will have very little mass to go with it.

You seem to believe people have an advantage over you condition wise because they take steroids, they dont, if you cant get ripped you need to diet harder.


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## Kristina (Apr 12, 2014)

Marcus2014 said:


> Mike O'Hearn Legs Training 2015 ( Bodybuilding TV ): Mike O'Hearn Legs Training 2015 ( Bodybuilding TV ) - YouTube
> 
> Tell me that's not a deca face right there


What's Deca face?


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## QuadFather94 (Jul 26, 2010)

F



SkinnyJ said:


> This is probaly the best example you will find. Mike O Hern is the ambassador of Natural body building - Hes been tested and is 100% clean ( ignore what the haters say)
> 
> So if youre wiling to train your ass off and eat 6 meals a day for 20 years you might get somewhere close, but remember this guy has Amazing genetics.
> 
> View attachment 164956


He isnt natural. 99% of the natural bodybuilding champions are not natural. It not hard to pass a drug test.


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## Kristina (Apr 12, 2014)

Okay... personally I'm going to go out on a limb here and I'll probably get flamed for it but I wonder if there's anyone on these boards who are more experienced and might relate to me...

Being natty, muscular/big AND shredded is MORE than possible - albeit difficult and pretty much takes a freak of nature... so, no - the majority of the population will NOT be able to achieve amazing things natty BUT... and this is the kicker; by hell it's NOT impossible. Who are you to say that 'he' is definitely on gear or not? How do you know that Mike, for instance, is not just a freak of nature in the 5% of the population?

Now.. I say this because I have a very, very close friend who competes in men's physique, he's 21 years of age, he's 200% natural, and I KNOW this for a FACT.... he is known amongst us as the freak of nature that no one I've ever seen can even compare to. His body responds to nutritional manipulation in an extraordinary way... his training and diet are as strict and obsessive as it gets (that's his choice, that's how he works, that's how he thrives)... he has very, very decent mass on him... and he is SHREDDED. When I say shredded, I mean it's sickening.

There is NO doubt that he is natural, but amongst us that know him, it's really funny to see the response he gets from the public (same as I see here for example) where people instantly accuse all the hard work for roids.

Don't get me wrong - I get it, I really do - I understand as well that MOST are juiced up and I'm also skeptical most of the time BUT I'd just like to acknowledge the fact that sometimes people are too sure of themselves and dismiss the POSSIBILITY that a person might... just might be natural.

Some people act as though being big and shredded is as unbelievable as the fecking toothfairy!


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## GPRIM (Mar 21, 2011)

I couldn't care less if someone is on drugs or not. I don't even ask people. It takes dedication regardless. Its the "he or she is that shredded because he or she takes xyz" the hard work seems to instantly get dismissed. Yes drugs do make a difference but most people ask because they want a reason as to why they aren't in that shape and don't want to blame their training/diet/genetics or dedication. They want to be able to say "I'd look like that if I took XYZ"

From a marketing perspective given the negative press on AAS use its never going to be discussed openly. Especially when money is involved and reputation. It happens in all business to an extend not just Bodybuilding. Most of the best high flying sales guys are on huge amounts of Coke to give them the edge in sales negotiations. Nobody says its because they are on coke they got the sale (ok maybe not the best example but you should get what I mean)

So yes I do believe can get big and ripped naturally I just don't really care.


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## Mingster (Mar 25, 2011)

Kristina said:


> Okay... personally I'm going to go out on a limb here and I'll probably get flamed for it but I wonder if there's anyone on these boards who are more experienced and might relate to me...
> 
> Being natty, muscular/big AND shredded is MORE than possible - albeit difficult and pretty much takes a freak of nature... so, no - the majority of the population will NOT be able to achieve amazing things natty BUT... and this is the kicker; by hell it's NOT impossible. Who are you to say that 'he' is definitely on gear or not? How do you know that Mike, for instance, is not just a freak of nature in the 5% of the population?
> 
> ...


There will be someone, somewhere who will demonstrate that it is possible. Everything is possible, but being big, shredded and natty is rare.

You can get to a decent size natty. I reached 230lbs natty at 5' 11", but at around 15-18% body fat and this was training purely for powerlifting. I'm fairly confident I can get to 10-12% at well over 200lbs even nowadays. I doubt many could get to 6-8% at that bodyweight and, quite frankly imo, who would want to? 6-8% isn't a practical level of bodyfat to maintain year round as a bodybuilder. As an athlete yes, bodybuilder no. The simple muscle sparing qualities of aas make them essential at maintaining size whilst being shredded and most would simply lose too much muscle getting down to that condition.


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## Kristina (Apr 12, 2014)

GPRIM said:


> I couldn't care less if someone is on drugs or not. I don't even ask people. It takes dedication regardless. Its the "he or she is that shredded because he or she takes xyz" the hard work seems to instantly get dismissed. Yes drugs do make a difference but most people ask because they want a reason as to why they aren't in that shape and don't want to blame their training/diet/genetics or dedication. They want to be able to say "I'd look like that if I took XYZ"
> 
> From a marketing perspective given the negative press on AAS use its never going to be discussed openly. Especially when money is involved and reputation. It happens in all business to an extend not just Bodybuilding. Most of the best high flying sales guys are on huge amounts of Coke to give them the edge in sales negotiations. Nobody says its because they are on coke they got the sale (ok maybe not the best example but you should get what I mean)
> 
> So yes I do believe can get big and ripped naturally I just don't really care.


Couldn't agree more.

I like that analogy haha. So true!


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## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

Kristina said:


> Okay... personally I'm going to go out on a limb here and I'll probably get flamed for it but I wonder if there's anyone on these boards who are more experienced and might relate to me...
> 
> Being natty, muscular/big AND shredded is MORE than possible - albeit difficult and pretty much takes a freak of nature... so, no - the majority of the population will NOT be able to achieve amazing things natty BUT... and this is the kicker; by hell it's NOT impossible. Who are you to say that 'he' is definitely on gear or not? How do you know that Mike, for instance, is not just a freak of nature in the 5% of the population?
> 
> ...


The only person who knows if someoine is natty is themselves.


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## Kristina (Apr 12, 2014)

Mingster said:


> There will be someone, somewhere who will demonstrate that it is possible. Everything is possible, but being big, shredded and natty is rare.
> 
> You can get to a decent size natty. I reached 230lbs natty at 5' 11", but at around 15-18% body fat and this was training purely for powerlifting. I'm fairly confident I can get to 10-12% at well over 200lbs even nowadays. I doubt many could get to 6-8% at that bodyweight and, quite frankly imo, who would want to? 6-8% isn't a practical level of bodyfat to maintain year round as a bodybuilder. As an athlete yes, bodybuilder no. The simple muscle sparing qualities of aas make them essential at maintaining size whilst being shredded and most would simply lose too much muscle getting down to that condition.


Not being facetious - genuine question - who stays at 5% all year round? I don't think I've ever seen anyone stay at that extreme all year round... even these guys who's career revolves around their image will tend to fluctuate between their competitions and photoshoots etc.. (although not necessarily to extremes).

I think the majority of bodybuilders these days tend to stay reasonably lean all year round but definitely (just not necessarily 5% or thereabouts).


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## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

> Now.. I say this because I have a very, very close friend who competes in men's physique, he's 21 years of age, he's 200% natural, and I KNOW this for a FACT.... he is known amongst us as the freak of nature that no one I've ever seen can even compare to. His body responds to nutritional manipulation in an extraordinary way... his training and diet are as strict and obsessive as it gets (that's his choice, that's how he works, that's how he thrives)... he has very, very decent mass on him... and he is SHREDDED. When I say shredded, I mean it's sickening.


What are his stats Kristina?


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## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

Kristina said:


> Not being facetious - genuine question - who stays at 5% all year round? I don't think I've ever seen anyone stay at that extreme all year round... even these guys who's career revolves around their image will tend to fluctuate between their competitions and photoshoots etc.. (although not necessarily to extremes).
> 
> I think the majority of bodybuilders these days tend to stay reasonably lean all year round but definitely (just not necessarily 5% or thereabouts).


5% is unhealthy to maintain, 8% looks great year round and is manageable.


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## Mingster (Mar 25, 2011)

Kristina said:


> Not being facetious - genuine question - who stays at 5% all year round? I don't think I've ever seen anyone stay at that extreme all year round... even these guys who's career revolves around their image will tend to fluctuate between their competitions and photoshoots etc.. (although not necessarily to extremes).
> 
> I think the majority of bodybuilders these days tend to stay reasonably lean all year round but definitely (just not necessarily 5% or thereabouts).


I don't believe I mention 5%, I mention 6-8% because these are the numbers I see bandied about on here as many peoples - unrealistic imo - goals. Personally anything under 10% is 'skinned rabbit' territory to my eyes. You see many competitive guys who have a great, full, healthy look at 8 weeks out then 'disappear' over the final weeks of prep. Now I understand that the competition look isn't meant for year round maintenance, but use it to illustrate the fact that 8 weeks out or thereabouts is generally what most people would term lean, and that there's no real need to go lower to look good.


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## Kristina (Apr 12, 2014)

Mingster said:


> I don't believe I mention 5%, I mention 6-8% because these are the numbers I see bandied about on here as many peoples - unrealistic imo - goals. Personally anything under 10% is 'skinned rabbit' territory to my eyes. You see many competitive guys who have a great, full, healthy look at 8 weeks out then 'disappear' over the final weeks of prep. Now I understand that the competition look isn't meant for year round maintenance, but use it to illustrate the fact that 8 weeks out or thereabouts is generally what most people would term lean, and that there's no real need to go lower to look good.


Ah sorry yes my bad. I see what you mean, totally agree.


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## Kristina (Apr 12, 2014)

banzi said:


> What are his stats Kristina?


Current stats: 5ft 7, 161lbs


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## ha032742 (Jan 14, 2015)

MrBrown786 said:


> I saw one of these posts before but never gave my input on how big can your arms get natty.
> 
> Anj Baig fellow Asian , owner of PMG Walthamstow / Harrow is ridiculously hench for being a suspected natty, now I'm only speculating he could be on some juice but here's a couple of pics one next to ZKK.
> 
> Thoughts?


As an aside I saw him on Desi Rascals (girlfriend was watching it...honest, guv!) and he doesn't look as big on the small screen as in your pics :confused1:


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## Frandeman (Mar 24, 2014)

Lance Armstrong was natty for the 7 YEARS he won...

Tested every [email protected] day

Pass test

7 years latter we all know what happened

Easy to cheat me think


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## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

Kristina said:


> Current stats: 5ft 7, 161lbs


BF%?


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## zyphy (Jun 23, 2014)

Kristina said:


> Being natty, muscular/big AND shredded is MORE than possible - albeit difficult and pretty much takes a freak of nature... so, no - the majority of the population will NOT be able to achieve amazing things natty BUT... and this is the kicker; by hell it's NOT impossible. Who are you to say that 'he' is definitely on gear or not? How do you know that Mike, for instance, is not just a freak of nature in the 5% of the population?
> 
> !


Have you seen that Rich Piana vid with Mike? Very awkward at the end lol

P.s. he definitely isn't natty... he dwarfed Rich who has juiced for years on end lol - no freak of nature can combat that


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## Kristina (Apr 12, 2014)

zyphy said:


> Have you seen that Rich Piana vid with Mike? Very awkward at the end lol
> 
> P.s. he definitely isn't natty... he dwarfed Rich who has juiced for years on end lol - no freak of nature can combat that


First of all, I was using him as an example.

Second of all, I'm not going to argue with you. I have my opinions on Mike and I am not here to try to change your opinion.

However... dwarfed him? No he didn't. Mike is 3 inches taller than Rich, and he certainly did not dwarf him. And no idea what you mean about 'awkward'... that's just your opinion and means nothing to me, sorry..

I'm not sticking up for Mike, just so you know, but I personally disagree with your silly theory and opinion..


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## Kristina (Apr 12, 2014)

banzi said:


> BF%?


No idea but pretty damn low..


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## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

Kristina said:


> No idea but pretty damn low..


Does he look like year round or thereabouts?


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## Kristina (Apr 12, 2014)

banzi said:


> Does he look like year round or thereabouts?


Ahh nope definifely not like THIS year round of course he's dieting for a show at the moment but he's always reasonably lean.


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## Adz (Jan 29, 2008)

Thats very impressive


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## b0t13 (Jan 3, 2013)

Very low BF, dryness, muscle size and vascular like a map.. Deffo natty freak lol


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## dragom (Jan 13, 2015)

i seen some men who are natty but natural big, but at same time higher bf,i know one i work with his never lifted weights in his life,fliping massive sholders,back, arms , not all fat in his fliping 60s,he must have testo disorder

as i kid i looked at photos of man called petar celik google it he is in his 60s now and looks a part

i dont know how to post photos,sorry , got all his books,fliping evrything etc

he started milos sarcev in to body bulding and was his trainer until milos moved to usa

that f***** still states he was natty only protein and food, and whole bleeding nation look up at him

but why they holding it so much?why lie so much? evry man and his dog know they on gear

and he when on tv radio papers still keeps going on its all natural ,food etc , i know it is food ,training rest, but lot of gear


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## MrLulz (Mar 20, 2012)

Kristina said:


> No idea but pretty damn low..


Your friend is 99% not natty.

You can't know he is. There are people I am very very close to, who I've disclosed all kinds of embarassing/immoral/illegal happenings with, but they'd put their house on me being natty.

Publicly admitting to being on juice goes down about as well as admitting to being a nonse.


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## Kristina (Apr 12, 2014)

MrLulz said:


> Your friend is 99% not natty.
> 
> You can't know he is. There are people I am very very close to, who I've disclosed all kinds of embarassing/immoral/illegal happenings with, but they'd put their house on me being natty.
> 
> Publicly admitting to being on juice goes down about as well as admitting to being a nonse.


Your opinion... and I understand where you're coming from, but I know for a fact that he is natty, for many reasons. I don't have to prove anything so I appreciate everyone will have their own opinions.


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## SkinnyJ (Apr 21, 2012)

MrLulz said:


> Your friend is 99% not natty.
> 
> You can't know he is. There are people I am very very close to, who I've disclosed all kinds of embarassing/immoral/illegal happenings with, but they'd put their house on me being natty.
> 
> Publicly admitting to being on juice goes down about as well as admitting to being a nonse.


Why cant he be natty? Hes in great shape but hes not arnold sizes. Why cant he just train hard and nail his diet and have a physique like that. HE clearly has superior genetics to most and if he took gear would probably be huge.

Just because you cant look like that natty, doesnt mean this dude cant.


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## Pinky (Sep 3, 2014)

Kristina said:


> No idea but pretty damn low..


Who ever this is, me thinks he's got a lush bod :wub:


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## saxondale (Nov 11, 2012)

Kristina said:


> No idea but pretty damn low..


he is the exception to the rule.


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## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

I would just like to add to this thread about my theory on 200cals over maintenance to build a body the same as you would eating 2000 cals a day over.

This guy clearly demonstrates this can be done

He's natty, he cant be eating in excess of maintenance by much to be in good shape year round, and eating more would not have made him gain any more muscle that he has now because if he is natty it isnt possible to get any bigger.


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## fafaz (Dec 16, 2014)

Lol at saying Mike is natty. Good luck getting to his level bro. Even with 30 years of lifting.


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## zyphy (Jun 23, 2014)

Lol that guy is deffo natty he's not big at all just lean

Seen loads of people who are naturally very vascular but cant put on much weight to save their life


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## walton21 (Aug 11, 2008)

One of my mates has never stepped foot in a gym or touched any kind of weights and he is naturally big, has definition and a six pack, his arms are bigger than mine which annoys me cause i have to workout for mine lol.

He is a freak and always takes **** out of us for going gym whilst he sits at home eating pizza looking like he does lol.

I doubt i will be able to get big naturally and i do expect to use gear at a later date, end of the day on gear or not you still have to work your **** off to get the results you want, people seem to think you stick some gear in your system and you get big lol.


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## calves (Feb 17, 2014)

zyphy said:


> Have you seen that Rich Piana vid with Mike? Very awkward at the end lol
> 
> P.s. he definitely isn't natty... he dwarfed Rich who has juiced for years on end lol - no freak of nature can combat that


Mike has that bloated look to his abdominal area which is generally consistent with usage. I'm not saying he is for sure but all roads do lead to him NOT being el naturell in my opinion. But that is just my opinion. Either way, he is strong as hell and looks well.


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## zyphy (Jun 23, 2014)

calves said:


> Mike has that bloated look to his abdominal area which is generally consistent with usage. I'm not saying he is for sure but all roads do lead to him NOT being el naturell in my opinion. But that is just my opinion. Either way, he is strong as hell and looks well.


He definitely isn't natural lol


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## 2H3ENCH4U (May 23, 2012)

Could natural mean no AAS use but possible use of HGH and other non hormonal PED's like Clen or Eph ??


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## essexboy (Sep 7, 2008)

SkinnyJ said:


> Why cant he be natty? Hes in great shape but hes not arnold sizes. Why cant he just train hard and nail his diet and have a physique like that. HE clearly has superior genetics to most and if he took gear would probably be huge.
> 
> *Just because you cant look like that natty*, doesnt mean this dude cant.


This is the issue in a nutshell.Proclaming non use of drugs, generally causes ripples of disbelief and accusations of lies.Its usually from those who cannot or will not accept we are not born equal.The bodybuilding business, knows this and exploits it.Since the supplement industry began, "Freaks" have been used to endorse products to ensure the gullible and desperate, part with money, in the hope of achieving what for most, is simply not possible.With the recent explosion of drug use,many now view AAS as the panacea, and secret to fulfill their dreams.

We all exist on a huge bell curve, and our adaptive responses to a plethora of stimulants are limited by the genes we inherit.Whether its bodybuilding, art or any endevour you choose,your eventual limit will be dictated by what Mum and Dad gave you.

Plenty of us, train ourselves into the ground and sacrifice far more satisfying pursuits in the hope that the suffering and denial, will eventually lead us to sucess.Its got to work that way right? The harder I train the more I suffer and toil, I WILL WIN!

Unfortunately thats not the case.No matter what Arnold says " train hard and eat right etc, and you will reach your goals" Its noT true.The genetic elite will always be revered and praised for achieving.The fact of the matter is that they are not anymore disciplined, motivated or better than most others.Its just they are born with gifts to ensure sucess, that most are not.

Ignore, those who are better ,and dont dampen their claims or sucess.It will only make you angry and bitter.Its not productive or a nice mindset to have.Strive to be the best you can.if the sacrifice is not worth it,then try something else.

There is a fulfilling, passionate life to live outside of a gym.

EB.


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## aman_21 (Jul 29, 2013)

All are natty


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## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

aman_21 said:


> All are natty


Bearing in mind the last guy thought he could out run a train maybe if he had used something he would be still alive.


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## Varg (May 17, 2010)

aman_21 said:


> All are natty


Natural, but photoshopped :laugh:


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## Jalex (Nov 16, 2014)

If anyone makes money of their physique in 99% of cases they are not natural.

This is my belief and it will not change. People are delusional if they disagree (unfortunately these are the same people that buy that super power concrete creatine ethyl for £39.99that got lazar angelov his physique! Rather than £2.99 creatine mono)


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## Pekdog (Jan 21, 2015)

Jalex said:


> If anyone makes money of their physique in 99% of cases they are not natural.
> 
> This is my belief and it will not change. People are delusional if they disagree (unfortunately these are the same people that buy that super power concrete creatine ethyl for £39.99that got lazar angelov his physique! Rather than £2.99 creatine mono)


Hahahahaha. Couldn't agree more. Exactly my thoughts. People are clueless


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## BoxerJay (Jan 11, 2011)

DappaDonDave said:


> Like protein porridge, protein bars, protein crisps, protein shakes, protein rice, protein flapjacks, chicken, protein dessert and casein for beddy times?


You forgot Ben & Jerrys pint ice cream. Thats the key man.


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## RowellS (Nov 20, 2014)

SkinnyJ said:


> This is probaly the best example you will find. Mike O Hern is the ambassador of Natural body building - Hes been tested and is 100% clean ( ignore what the haters say)
> 
> So if youre wiling to train your ass off and eat 6 meals a day for 20 years you might get somewhere close, but remember this guy has Amazing genetics.
> 
> View attachment 164956


Mike O Tren* yeah definitely natty


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## Sionnach (Apr 19, 2010)

Interesting topic, what about Aaron Curtis aka Iron Curtis
View attachment 166469


Poster boy for Natty bodybuilding. Condemns and shames the fake nattys.


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## waaky (Feb 12, 2015)

A friend of mine has told me that a few members of PMG take horse growth hormones, it has been told by a really good friend of theirs, was told not to mention it but ain't said any names. It's just what iv'e been told!


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## d4ead (Nov 3, 2008)

It's all genetics what one person could achieve natty 20 others could only dream of on a ton of gear. Not because of food or training just genetics.

Half the tiny skinny boys from the men's health covers are on a ton of gear.

In short your really asking the wrong question. If that kind of thing is important to you. The only question to ask is how big could I get natty. Sadly the only person that can answer that is yourself.

How about how natty is a natty, when training is unnatural, the amount of food we eat is unnatural, the protein to carb ratio is unnatural. Levels of creatine, ect.

Test itself is a natural hormone that some people naturally have more of then others.

Truth is everyone is an unnatural natty.


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## hardmadegains (Mar 28, 2014)

I actually follow sergi constance a fair bit, he has pretty much my ideal physique. 91 kilos absolutely diced to the bone 17. 5 inch arms.. I watch His videos and you can tell when is is blasting /cycling.. Im very very sure he is not natty he's a monster and stupidly ripped all the time... Just find it very hard to belive..

His buddy jaco de bruyn ...










Not saying you should judge someone's natty Or not on therr friends at all But they always train together both fitness models or whatever have there own brand of clothing and God knows what else... monsters! As said before when your jobs to look like that I just don't see why you wouldn't?


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