# The PWO Anabolic Window - A Big Con?



## foodaddict (Feb 11, 2013)

Well what do we think?

Is it really necessary to have whey and simple carbs immediately PWO or are we being hoodwinked out of our money by the supplement companies? I stopped taking creatine and glutamine a couple of months ago and haven't noticed a blind bit if difference. Debating cutting out the old standby PWO shake as well...

Is overall net protein consumption more important than nutrient timing for recovery and growth? Unless you're training in a fasted state, you should have enough aminos already in the blood to kickstart recovery process, without consuming a shake that will pull blood away from your muscles to aid in digestion.

The more I read about the 'anabolic window' the mote sceptical I get, but then I think about the science behind insulin as a nutrient shuttle, bbers who swear by jabbing slin PWO, and I just don't know.

Opinions?


----------



## foodaddict (Feb 11, 2013)

Bump


----------



## Foamy (Jul 2, 2010)

There seems to be a lot of research lately that leans more towards having nothing imediately after a workout to not dull the natural GH boost you get.


----------



## simonthepieman (Jun 11, 2012)

Based on any real research of actually results. It appears to matter very little.

I started training in the morning and doing IF so often have 4-5 hours between training and eating and noticed no difference.

Train hard and smart with a focus on progressive overload. Hit your macros. Eat as a good quality and a variety food which has an abundance of micro nutrients as possible. Try and get plenty of rest and have a stress free life. Eat the right amount of calories to either loss fat or build muscle at a sustainable rate

If you get all the of the above right, most of the other stuff pales to insignificance. And if you haven't got all of the above sorted, don't waste your time on supplements


----------



## Foamy (Jul 2, 2010)

simonthepieman said:


> Based on any real research of actually results. It appears to matter very little.
> 
> I started training in the morning and doing IF so often have 4-5 hours between training and eating and noticed no difference.
> 
> ...


This ^^. Don't sweat over the little details and focus on the big picture.


----------



## Superhorse (May 29, 2011)

Foamy said:


> There seems to be a lot of research lately that leans more towards having nothing imediately after a workout to not dull the natural GH boost you get.


What research?

Do you mean George Farah saying it? You are aware he's lying to sell products and of course all his athletes are taking synthetic GH post workout...


----------



## Dh2909 (Aug 9, 2011)

Well when I was on a cut I was losing strength, then when I started implementing a pwo shake (within my daily macro) I started to gain strength. So I for one am a believer that its is definitely a beneficial time to take advantage off!

Studies show that glut 4 is activated during training which is the system that insulin activates to force nutrients into the muscle.


----------



## Foamy (Jul 2, 2010)

Superhorse said:


> What research?
> 
> Do you mean George Farah saying it? You are aware he's lying to sell products and of course all his athletes are taking synthetic GH post workout...


No mate.

This article on t-nation has plenty of references at the bottom to actual medical studies. Some quite interesting, some, bloody confusing!!


----------



## cudsyaj (Jul 5, 2011)

I don't have much whey in my life anyway, usually morning shake is oats, egg whites, PB etc and the training days I'll eat a banana and half a shake PWO and finish off with a proper meal when I get home.

I've been cutting and keeping in my macros and it's working fine.


----------



## Mingster (Mar 25, 2011)

A normal meal and hour or so post wo does the job imo...


----------



## foodaddict (Feb 11, 2013)

simonthepieman said:


> Based on any real research of actually results. It appears to matter very little.
> 
> I started training in the morning and doing IF so often have 4-5 hours between training and eating and noticed no difference.
> 
> ...


I agree with all that mate.

What are your thoughts specifically on the PWO insulin spike? Given that insulin is such an anabolic hormone


----------



## simonthepieman (Jun 11, 2012)

foodaddict said:


> I agree with all that mate.
> 
> What are your thoughts specifically on the PWO insulin spike? Given that insulin is such an anabolic hormone


I don't think about it ever.


----------



## jonnym4 (May 8, 2011)

Much prefer intra workout and then eating about an hour post! I've noticed Much better recovery


----------



## Chelsea (Sep 19, 2009)

Foamy said:


> This ^^. Don't sweat over the little details and focus on the big picture.


But its the little details that make the big picture.


----------



## Dux (Nov 29, 2011)

I've started taking bcaa's intra and a EAA/BCAA drink immediately PWO, what harm can it do?

I then eat a proper meal an hour later.

A PWO drink helps me hit my macros for the day.


----------



## foodaddict (Feb 11, 2013)

simonthepieman said:


> I don't think about it ever.


Lol that's me told!


----------



## foodaddict (Feb 11, 2013)

Chelsea said:


> But its the little details that make the big picture.


What are your thoughts on PWO nutrition mate?

Been reading your offseason journal but can't remember you stating what you have/ if you have anything PWO


----------



## Sambuca (Jul 25, 2012)

hydrowhey and then pineapple 20mins after workout


----------



## Chelsea (Sep 19, 2009)

foodaddict said:


> What are your thoughts on PWO nutrition mate?
> 
> Been reading your offseason journal but can't remember you stating what you have/ if you have anything PWO


Me personally straight after a workout I have:

1 x bowl of cereal with milk.

2 scoops whey protein.

Then within the hour I will have a full meal e.g. 220g chicken with rice and vegetables plus 1g vit c.


----------



## Sambuca (Jul 25, 2012)

i fancy swapping pineapple for pop tarts or iced gems


----------



## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

Foamy said:


> There seems to be a lot of research lately that leans more towards having nothing imediately after a workout to not dull the natural GH boost you get.


i would not say that article would elicit the term "a lot of research" the GH boost through a workout is irrelevant to anyone who uses PED's as although the boost could be 500% of normal levels normal levels are very low so the amount would be very small......even for naturals it is small very small.

as most of you are aware the Natural GH pulse is blunted by any Carb or Fat source so in theory taking a PWO shake would negatively effect this GH boost BUT the main thing is this GH boost as many refer to is created through intense exercise this intense exercise boost will start just after the session starts or at least half way through, and will have all ready been done by the time you stop the workout and take your shake.......so not negatively effected.



foodaddict said:


> Well what do we think?
> 
> Is it really necessary to have whey and simple carbs immediately PWO or are we being hoodwinked out of our money by the supplement companies? I stopped taking creatine and glutamine a couple of months ago and haven't noticed a blind bit if difference. Debating cutting out the old standby PWO shake as well...
> 
> ...


firstly there is more data to back up the use of creatine than any other supplement so if you are not seeing any difference then i am afraid you are one of a very few......

the thing is it is not really about straight after the workout that helps with recovery it is the following 24hrs that is important, i know of many who take a PWO shake then do not concentrate on the meals after or the next day.......

do you need carbs to recover....YES i believe you do and anyone who has done a Keto diet will attest to the downward trend with energy in the gym and lift strength......

my new regime has me using a Carb drink with hydroisolate whey through my workout along with carbs in the next 2 meals PWO and my recovery has taken a upward turn....

the thing is just as many will take that the PWO window is a solid theory with the production of one study to show it works others will do the same to show it does not....for every study to prove something there is one to disprove it i would be very careful in now dismissing the use of PWO carbs on one or two studies otherwise you then fall into the same trap many did (including me) in the past with the importance of the 1hr anabolic window PWO....as this was once proved by a study......

look at your over all regime...

do you drink 3-5l of water per day?

Do you monitor everything you eat?

do you log all your workouts?

do you get at least 8hrs sleep per night?

do you get at least your 5 a day with veg/fruit

do you follow a good all round diet using whole foods?

if you have answered no to any of the above why do you think having a PWO shake straight after a workout will make you into a monster  my point being yes the finer details do count when you have the basics covered and the majority of guys do this as a hobby, they go out on the lash each weekend or at least a few times a month (and everything that goes with this) yet they believe a PWO shake will make them into Phil Heath.....


----------



## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

Sambuca said:


> hydrowhey and then pineapple 20mins after workout


is that the hydrowhey he has just released


----------



## foodaddict (Feb 11, 2013)

Sambuca said:


> i fancy swapping pineapple for pop tarts or iced gems


Lol my brother has a bag of Haribo Starmix PWO and his bodyfats about 10-11%


----------



## Sambuca (Jul 25, 2012)

Pscarb said:


> is that the hydrowhey he has just released


didnt know he had! i think its about 20mins they talk about post workout nutrition, was interesting to a noobie like myself.


----------



## foodaddict (Feb 11, 2013)

Pscarb said:


> i would not say that article would elicit the term "a lot of research" the GH boost through a workout is irrelevant to anyone who uses PED's as although the boost could be 500% of normal levels normal levels are very low so the amount would be very small......even for naturals it is small very small.
> 
> as most of you are aware the Natural GH pulse is blunted by any Carb or Fat source so in theory taking a PWO shake would negatively effect this GH boost BUT the main thing is this GH boost as many refer to is created through intense exercise this intense exercise boost will start just after the session starts or at least half way through, and will have all ready been done by the time you stop the workout and take your shake.......so not negatively effected.
> 
> ...


Lol I'm not expecting a PWO shake to make me a 'monster' or 'Phil Heath'...I just think times are hard, money is tight and we all cut back where we can, aand I was wondering if eliminating PWO shakes to save money would sabotage my gains.

The 6 questions you asked at the end...I answered yes to first 3, no to next 2, and 'not as consistently as I should' to the last, so obviously I have much work to do.

I agree with your opinions with studies...for everyine arguing 'for' there's someone arguing 'against.' But do the studies arguing 'for' have vested interests, ie are they financed by supplement companies?

As for glycogen replenishment PWO, I have a genuine question mate. If I train at 6pm and finish at 7pm, and I won't be training until 6pm the following day, i have 23 hrs to replenish my glycogen stores with various meals. What is the need to replenish straight away with simple carbs? Sorry if this is a dumb question.

Have a lot of respect for you so interested in your opinions on this topic


----------



## Sambuca (Jul 25, 2012)

foodaddict said:


> Lol I'm not expecting a PWO shake to make me a 'monster' or 'Phil Heath'...I just think times are hard, money is tight and we all cut back where we can, aand I was wondering if eliminating PWO shakes to save money would sabotage my gains.
> 
> The 6 questions you asked at the end...I answered yes to first 3, no to next 2, and 'not as consistently as I should' to the last, so obviously I have much work to do.
> 
> ...


I am interested in that too. I thought that really you needed to replenish the night before ideally?


----------



## secretuser (May 30, 2013)

The natty gh release from training is so small its irrelevant...

Maybe with Pw peptides you may get a release worth having...

The natty insulin spike from whey and simple carbs is far more anabolic then the insignificant gh release...

imo timing in diet is crucial...

Not just pre and pw but other times too.

Pw nutrition is the key to growth imo.

Overall macro consumption is important tho.

Creatine, glutamine and bcaa are all worth while sups as is whey.

You'll find the more advanced trainer and physique will notice the diff with or with out these sups.


----------



## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

foodaddict said:


> Lol I'm not expecting a PWO shake to make me a 'monster' or 'Phil Heath'...I just think times are hard, money is tight and we all cut back where we can, aand I was wondering if eliminating PWO shakes to save money would sabotage my gains.
> 
> The 6 questions you asked at the end...I answered yes to first 3, no to next 2, and 'not as consistently as I should' to the last, so obviously I have much work to do.
> 
> ...


my comment about being a monster was not aimed at any one person it was a overall observation.

the need in my opinion is to get the process off to a good start and keep with this through the next 24hrs.......

you quoted a article on T Nation in an earlier post where it does claim that the need is not that important but this is from the very same site....



> 4. Don't Skip Your Workout Drink
> 
> Getting quality protein and carbohydrates into your system around the training period is important, as you probably know. It's so important that it's even been called the 3rd Law of Muscle and it's the basis of the Anaconda Protocol.
> 
> ...


Article on T Nation

like i mentioned before one article/study will counter another it is all about how the person interprets it.

trial and error is the best way forward....use a PWO shake and see if it makes a difference with your recovery.....if it does not then space it out from straight after the workout to and hour and so on.....


----------



## secretuser (May 30, 2013)

If its money issues...

How much is 60g whey?

To get 600g protein from say a chicken breast your looking 300g chicken breast...

Surely whey is actually cheaper?


----------



## Papa Lazarou (Jul 4, 2007)

Depends if natural, assisted, compounds being used or not, level of experience etc - suggesting we all react the same is crazy.


----------



## foodaddict (Feb 11, 2013)

secretuser said:


> The natty gh release from training is so small its irrelevant...
> 
> Maybe with Pw peptides you may get a release worth having...
> 
> ...


I've read ( I apologise I can't remember where) that protein synthesis is elevated for up to 48 hrs after a workout. If we to believe this (im not saying i actually do, im really confused and dont know what to believe) and we assume that the majority of guys train about 4 x per week, then our bodies are pretty much permanently in a state of elevated protein synthesis. Thereby timing would be unimportant, but net protein consumption would.

However the concept of an anabolic window where muscle tissues have increased insulin sensitivity after training just seems to make sense to me. Would probably make sense to have PWO shake just to 'cover my bases'.

As for creatine, I understand it is probably the best researched and most highly rated sports supplement in the world, but I genuinely do not notice any difference in strength/muscle size/recovery etc so far. Perhaps it's effects are subtle and at a high bbing level eg someone who competes perhaps creatine gives that extra 1 % that makes a crucial difference?


----------



## foodaddict (Feb 11, 2013)

Pscarb said:


> my comment about being a monster was not aimed at any one person it was a overall observation.
> 
> the need in my opinion is to get the process off to a good start and keep with this through the next 24hrs.......
> 
> ...


Thanks that was a great post


----------



## secretuser (May 30, 2013)

Papa Lazarou said:


> Depends if natural, assisted, compounds being used or not, level of experience etc - suggesting we all react the same is crazy.


We dnt all react the same but there will be many similarities...

If some thing works it works... May work really well for one but notes much for another...

But will to some degree share similarities.


----------



## foodaddict (Feb 11, 2013)

secretuser said:


> If its money issues...
> 
> How much is 60g whey?
> 
> ...


I meant delete the PWO meal fron my daily diet entirely mate, not replace it with a more expensive whole food source


----------



## secretuser (May 30, 2013)

foodaddict said:


> I've read ( I apologise I can't remember where) that protein synthesis is elevated for up to 48 hrs after a workout. If we to believe this (im not saying i actually do, im really confused and dont know what to believe) and we assume that the majority of guys train about 4 x per week, then our bodies are pretty much permanently in a state of elevated protein synthesis. Thereby timing would be unimportant, but net protein consumption would.
> 
> However the concept of an anabolic window where muscle tissues have increased insulin sensitivity after training just seems to make sense to me. Would probably make sense to have PWO shake just to 'cover my bases'.
> 
> As for creatine, I understand it is probably the best researched and most highly rated sports supplement in the world, but I genuinely do not notice any difference in strength/muscle size/recovery etc so far. Perhaps it's effects are subtle and at a high bbing level eg someone who competes perhaps creatine gives that extra 1 % that makes a crucial difference?


I do think that after training your body will be very sensitive to pro/carbs for longer then the 1hr window that's for sure!

How long it is in a state of elevated sensitivity for, that Im not sure of...

Even if it is 48hr the theory is why throw away any of that time?

Throw in the fastest pro/carbs that you can find as then the recovery and growth has started as soon as poss, then keep it going with a ppw meal high in pro/carb... Then keep good quality macros coming in all day.

This will ensure you get the most out of your window no matter how long it is... 1-2hr or all day or two days what ever it is why not make the most of it?

Creatine ime will mainly aid your set to set recovery.

Say bench press you hit your 1st work set of 140kx10 the creatine will help the recovery of energy between this set and set 2 helping you get closer to a 2nd set of 10 then you would with out...

This makes the session more productive and there for more muscle trauma etc

Then the body has more to recover from and will come back bigger and stronger to deal with the load of the workout...

Deffo has its place imo and I feel a huge a diff personally


----------



## secretuser (May 30, 2013)

foodaddict said:


> I meant delete the PWO meal fron my daily diet entirely mate, not replace it with a more expensive whole food source


Imo you'd be selling your self short doing that...


----------



## foodaddict (Feb 11, 2013)

secretuser said:


> Imo you'd be selling your self short doing that...


Yeah the overall consensus on this thread seems to be that PWO shakes are beneficial


----------



## mal (Dec 31, 2009)

i drink protein through my workouts,and on way home ect,then eat a small meal poached eggs ,cottage

cheese later on,recover much better.


----------



## Robbie (Dec 31, 2007)

foodaddict said:


> I meant delete the PWO meal fron my daily diet entirely mate, not replace it with a more expensive whole food source


But then your calories for the day would drop and thus so would your gains?


----------



## foodaddict (Feb 11, 2013)

Robbie said:


> But then your calories for the day would drop and thus so would your gains?


True. its all kind of irrelevant to me atm cos im cutting, but my brothers on a bulk and we got chatting about the PWO shake, when i last bulked i consumed 50g whey and 100g carbs and i felt the carbs got me fat, and we just got chatting about the importance of PWO nutrition, if you cut the shake out would you stay leaner and still be making gains through your regular whole food meals

Theory doesnt seem sound but it was worth considering/debating especially with the possibility of supplement companies' marketing and hype


----------



## Robbie (Dec 31, 2007)

foodaddict said:


> True. its all kind of irrelevant to me atm cos im cutting, but my brothers on a bulk and we got chatting about the PWO shake, when i last bulked i consumed 50g whey and 100g carbs and i felt the carbs got me fat, and we just got chatting about the importance of PWO nutrition, if you cut the shake out would you stay leaner and still be making gains through your regular whole food meals
> 
> Theory doesnt seem sound but it was worth considering/debating especially with the possibility of supplement companies' marketing and hype


Carbs don't make you fat, total caloric intake does.


----------



## secretuser (May 30, 2013)

mal said:


> i drink protein through my workouts,and on way home ect,then eat a small meal poached eggs ,cottage
> 
> cheese later on,recover much better.


Hydro whey is the only protein fast enough for intra workout consumption...

Better off with a glucose, bcaa, glutamine intra workout imo

Whey iso simple carb pw then a solid meal low in fat.


----------



## Superhorse (May 29, 2011)

Dh2909 said:


> Well when I was on a cut I was losing strength, then when I started implementing a pwo shake (within my daily macro) I started to gain strength. So I for one am a believer that its is definitely a beneficial time to take advantage off!
> 
> Studies show that glut 4 is activated during training which is the system that insulin activates to force nutrients into the muscle.


Is it not the exactly opposite of insulin i.e. a different system as Kiefer is claiming that glute4 wont uptake fat as insulin would.

Studies on that are pretty early doors though even though carb backloading makes it sound amazing and special.


----------



## foodaddict (Feb 11, 2013)

Robbie said:


> Carbs don't make you fat, total caloric intake does.


Lol why oh why do people think I'm thick?

I was getting fat on my bulk so obviously I knew I was taking in too many calories. I figured perhaps the100g of simple carbs - 400 cals fron the carbs alone,not including the whey Iwas having pwo - was excessive and could be reduced if not taken out completely, if the 'anabolic window' stuff was al hype.


----------



## marknorthumbria (Oct 1, 2009)

I just got a txt of my Mate preaching what this guy was on about.

My reply was exactly as some say here

Natty GH pulse is probs by finished by the time you've hammered a big WO, simple sugars are cheap and effective, get them in you immediately PWO.

The only time I wouldn't is when using GHRP post workout .


----------



## secretuser (May 30, 2013)

foodaddict said:


> True. its all kind of irrelevant to me atm cos im cutting, but my brothers on a bulk and we got chatting about the PWO shake, when i last bulked i consumed 50g whey and 100g carbs and i felt the carbs got me fat, and we just got chatting about the importance of PWO nutrition, if you cut the shake out would you stay leaner and still be making gains through your regular whole food meals
> 
> Theory doesnt seem sound but it was worth considering/debating especially with the possibility of supplement companies' marketing and hype


Carbs Pw will not make you fat...

Id look at the rest of youth diet bud

Pw carbs are just replacing the carbs/glycogen that has been used up by training...

At this point the body will not even care what carbs it is... Glucose, vitargo, haribo...


----------



## secretuser (May 30, 2013)

foodaddict said:


> Lol why oh why do people think I'm thick?
> 
> I was getting fat on my bulk so obviously I knew I was taking in too many calories. I figured perhaps the100g of simple carbs - 400 cals fron the carbs alone,not including the whey Iwas having pwo - was excessive and could be reduced if not taken out completely, if the 'anabolic window' stuff was al hype.


Id have taken cals off of my last meal... Keep pro high but cut carbs and lower fat...

High carbs morning and pw are the ones that will get made the most use of...


----------



## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

secretuser said:


> Id have taken cals off of my last meal... Keep pro high but cut carbs and lower fat...
> 
> High carbs morning and pw are the ones that will get made the most use of...


this is incorrect ......Carbs in the morning hinder fat loss, i have like many benefited from replacing my first meal of the day with Pro/Fats over a meal containing carbs......the body will use carbs Intra and PWO more effectively along with the meals following the workout more efficiently than say before the workout.

yes breakfast is an important meal of the day but this does not mean Carbs are more effectively used in this meal unless it follows a workout.


----------



## secretuser (May 30, 2013)

Pscarb said:


> this is incorrect ......Carbs in the morning hinder fat loss, i have like many benefited from replacing my first meal of the day with Pro/Fats over a meal containing carbs......the body will use carbs Intra and PWO more effectively along with the meals following the workout more efficiently than say before the workout.
> 
> yes breakfast is an important meal of the day but this does not mean Carbs are more effectively used in this meal unless it follows a workout.


Its all swings and roundabout tho as you say it hinders fat loss but Id have thought it would create a more anabolic environment?

So id have thought its goal dependant on what you would have carbs or fats...

Id have thought that after a 7hr fast the body would make better use of what ever macros you give it compared to say lunch that would be 3 meals in to the day and before training for most ppl?

But agree on pw and the meals that follow. Should have side not just the pw meal but pw as in after workout and them that follow... Poor post lol

(kinda what I said in earlier posts)


----------



## simonthepieman (Jun 11, 2012)

secretuser said:


> Its all swings and roundabout tho as you say it hinders fat loss but Id have thought it would create a more anabolic environment?
> 
> So id have thought its goal dependant on what you would have carbs or fats...
> 
> ...


dude, you are supplement marketeers dream


----------



## Huntingground (Jan 10, 2010)

I am literally starving after a workout so eat as much real food as poss - carbs/protein/fats. Also drink as much water as I need which can be litres.


----------



## secretuser (May 30, 2013)

simonthepieman said:


> dude, you are supplement marketeers dream


?


----------



## secretuser (May 30, 2013)

Huntingground said:


> I am literally starving after a workout so eat as much real food as poss - carbs/protein/fats. Also drink as much water as I need which can be litres.


If you have intra bcaa etc that's not a bad thing at all...

I just can't eat pw as stomach is all over the place...


----------



## Super_G (Feb 20, 2012)

I'm 100% certain it all does help in some way but its def not as important as these companies advertise, they are selling to make a profit after all. Recently iv started on a cardio journey, I do a fasted run in the morning and afterwards I don't have the stomach for food so iv been having a jar of babyfood, apple and custard rice pudding to be exact :lol: fits my post workout macros perfectly! Replaces glycogen, has fast acting cards, hardly any fat, low cals and no added preservatives..... Then I have my breakfast an hour or so later. I always have a whey shake after a weights workout, just out of habit but that's the only time I have them. Regulate it via diet mostly.

I'm not convinced on BCAA products at all tbh, class it as expensive pishwater. I used it for months, spent a fortune, brought me no noticeable results, well the tablets did, a disgusting taste in my mouth when I burped...


----------



## Huntingground (Jan 10, 2010)

secretuser said:


> If you have intra bcaa etc that's not a bad thing at all...
> 
> I just can't eat pw as stomach is all over the place...


No BCAAs mate.


----------



## secretuser (May 30, 2013)

Huntingground said:


> No BCAAs mate.


Just solid food would be slower...

Id opt for a small a shake immediately pw then when you get home or were ever then eat your food... Just to make the most of the recovery period.

But having just flicked through your shic thread I dnt think it matters wtf you do your gonna grow lol


----------



## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

secretuser said:


> Its all swings and roundabout tho as you say it hinders fat loss but Id have thought it would create a more anabolic environment?
> 
> So id have thought its goal dependant on what you would have carbs or fats...
> 
> ...


why do you feel that a meal made from quality protein sources and good fats cannot be anabolic? this also would break the fast so not sure what the gain is your eluding to using carbs?? (not saying it is a bad thing just wondering why you seem to feel (from your posts) an anabolic environment is only caused through the eating of carbs?)

your goal is dependent on your overall daily Macro/Calorie requirements is it not?? you can still bulk without having Carbs for breakfast ?? you mention better use of the Macro's i am still unsure why those Macro's seem to need Carbs? next you will be telling me you cannot eat carbs after 6 or you will get fat  (jk couldn't resist)

my point is that recovery is key as long as you make sure you can get carbs around the training window (i prefer very few before training) then recovery will be improved, if you want carbs at breakfast eat them but what i am saying is that although it is an important meal Carbs does not have to be included.....


----------



## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

Super_G said:


> I'm 100% certain it all does help in some way but its def not as important as these companies advertise, they are selling to make a profit after all. Recently iv started on a cardio journey, I do a fasted run in the morning and afterwards I don't have the stomach for food so iv been having a jar of babyfood, apple and custard rice pudding to be exact :lol: fits my post workout macros perfectly! Replaces glycogen, has fast acting cards, hardly any fat, low cals and no added preservatives..... Then I have my breakfast an hour or so later. I always have a whey shake after a weights workout, just out of habit but that's the only time I have them. Regulate it via diet mostly.
> 
> I'm not convinced on BCAA products at all tbh, class it as expensive pishwater. I used it for months, spent a fortune, brought me no noticeable results, well the tablets did, a disgusting taste in my mouth when I burped...


so you do fasted cardio i assume for fat loss otherwise why do it fasted?? but then you increase insulin straight after with the baby food which in turn stops all fat burning by releasing insulin can i ask WHY????

BCAA's do work and this has been proven many times, do you have to take 50 scoops a day of course not but they do work...


----------



## Super_G (Feb 20, 2012)

Pscarb said:


> so you do fasted cardio i assume for fat loss otherwise why do it fasted?? but then you increase insulin straight after with the baby food which in turn stops all fat burning by releasing insulin can i ask WHY????
> 
> BCAA's do work and this has been proven many times, do you have to take 50 scoops a day of course not but they do work...


You may ask WHY..

Fits my macros, fits the bill for energy replenishment. Good immediate source for calcium and potassium also there's many a BB that use the gerber sweet potato immediately after a workout alongside using it as an aid to bulking, think they use the sweet potato and beans for that though.

What would you suggest out of complete interest? It is actually working aswell and been a method used by many (german hockey team i once read in flex) so I'm honestly interested in what criticism may follow..


----------



## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

Super_G said:


> You may ask WHY..
> 
> Fits my macros, fits the bill for energy replenishment. Good immediate source for calcium and potassium also there's many a BB that use the gerber sweet potato immediately after a workout alongside using it as an aid to bulking, think they use the sweet potato and beans for that though.
> 
> What would you suggest out of complete interest? It is actually working aswell and been a method used by many (german hockey team i once read in flex) so I'm honestly interested in what criticism may follow..


my question is the order of things....

why are you doing fasted cardio? is it because it fits with your daily schedule or to enhance fat loss?

if it is the latter one then it will not be effective as the insulin response from the baby food will stop all fat burning in the body so if your aim is to enhance fat burning then it will not this is not just my opinion but how the body works so as i mentioned in my first post asking why if this is for fatloss why??

if it not for fat loss and you do fasted cardio for the only reason that it fits into your daily routine better then great.......do not see this as a challenge to your methods but a question to understand why you are following such a regime.....


----------



## secretuser (May 30, 2013)

Pscarb said:


> why do you feel that a meal made from quality protein sources and good fats cannot be anabolic? this also would break the fast so not sure what the gain is your eluding to using carbs?? (not saying it is a bad thing just wondering why you seem to feel (from your posts) an anabolic environment is only caused through the eating of carbs?)
> 
> your goal is dependent on your overall daily Macro/Calorie requirements is it not?? you can still bulk without having Carbs for breakfast ?? you mention better use of the Macro's i am still unsure why those Macro's seem to need Carbs? next you will be telling me you cannot eat carbs after 6 or you will get fat  (jk couldn't resist)
> 
> my point is that recovery is key as long as you make sure you can get carbs around the training window (i prefer very few before training) then recovery will be improved, if you want carbs at breakfast eat them but what i am saying is that although it is an important meal Carbs does not have to be included.....


Lol you misunderstand my post...

Carbs will cause an insulin spike creating an anabolic environment.

So its not the only way to create an anabolic environment but would have thought more so then with fats? Maybe wrong...

The macros dnt need carbs to be made better use of lol

what I was saying is the macros no matter what they are will be used more efficiently at this time... Be it carbs or fat but the convo was on carbs at the time...

Yes you can still bulk with no carbs at breakfast.

Id prefer to have carbs at this time.

Yes I agree in the recovery etc

You do not need carbs at breky lol


----------



## Super_G (Feb 20, 2012)

Pscarb said:


> my question is the order of things....
> 
> why are you doing fasted cardio? is it because it fits with your daily schedule or to enhance fat loss?
> 
> ...


Even if it was a challenge man I'd be grateful for the input, when it comes to muscle building, nutrition and all things related I'm pretty sure you'll have more overall knowledge than I do 

Fasted cardio is done at 5.30 am as I need to get up and run before doing the school run, if I eat before I run I spew everywhere or if it stays down my run doesn't go well at all, even with half a banana I really struggle. I also feel weak after my Runs, came accross an article about the banana based babyfoods via Bret Contreras' twitter about 4 months ago that explained the pros of the immenent energy and added potassium. not that i got cramp and such like after my runs all the time but with the idea of it being an immediate energy re-feed with the vitamins etc i decided to give it a try. Don't get me wrong though I do have fat to burn but i think itl go due to my overall diet and extra cardio im doing with the insanity DVDs during the day before lunch, Iv only recently had surgery on my legs so now I can run and jump I'm making the most if it :lol:

As with anything, I gave the babyfood idea a try, only way I learn if things are for me or not. Like running the Keto diet before my operation wasn't a great idea as I lost most of my muscle gains by the time I had healed and allowed back into the gym :lol:

Cardio wise I'm aiming for fitness, hoping to re-enter the forces later in the year  once I can get myself back to hitting level 13 on the bleep test, it's cardio once or twice a week and lifting the rest :thumbsup:


----------



## samb213 (Jun 27, 2012)

Pscarb at the minute straight after 45 mins fasted cardio im eating 40 gs of oats in water 50 g protein from whey 15 g peanut butter and an apple..do you think id benefit then by just going with the whey and pb and adding the 40 gs oats and the apple to my post workout meal as far as fat loss is concerned


----------



## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

Super_G said:


> Even if it was a challenge man I'd be grateful for the input, when it comes to muscle building, nutrition and all things related I'm pretty sure you'll have more overall knowledge than I do
> 
> Fasted cardio is done at 5.30 am as I need to get up and run before doing the school run, if I eat before I run I spew everywhere or if it stays down my run doesn't go well at all, even with half a banana I really struggle. I also feel weak after my Runs, came accross an article about the banana based babyfoods via Bret Contreras' twitter about 4 months ago that explained the pros of the immenent energy and added potassium. not that i got cramp and such like after my runs all the time but with the idea of it being an immediate energy re-feed with the vitamins etc i decided to give it a try. Don't get me wrong though I do have fat to burn but i think itl go due to my overall diet and extra cardio im doing with the insanity DVDs during the day before lunch, Iv only recently had surgery on my legs so now I can run and jump I'm making the most if it :lol:
> 
> ...


the challenge part of my post is a disclaimer as some take my genuine questions as challenges to there knowledge (replies to one or two of my posts in this thread is case in point lol) you are doing fasted cardio as it fits into your regime so my point about the insulin spike is null and void to be fair as this is not your main over riding goal at the moment.....good luck with the return to the armed forces when I was in I hated the bleep test.....



samb213 said:


> Pscarb at the minute straight after 45 mins fasted cardio im eating 40 gs of oats in water 50 g protein from whey 15 g peanut butter and an apple..do you think id benefit then by just going with the whey and pb and adding the 40 gs oats and the apple to my post workout meal as far as fat loss is concerned


if your main goal is fat loss then a meal with Pro/Fats is a better choice than oats.....


----------



## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

secretuser said:


> Lol you misunderstand my post...
> 
> Carbs will cause an insulin spike creating an anabolic environment.
> 
> ...


My misunderstanding comes from how you explain your point in prevouise posts, you make a fair few assumptions in your posts yet try to justify your point by following it with lol?? I am not sure why unless you do not like to enter in to a debate about your point of view??

You are correct the thread is about carbs and so was my point as it followed your incorrect assumption that breakfast is one of the most important times to eat carbs in my opinion it is not, but that is all that is my opinion based on my experience in the BodyBuilding game for over 25yrs......you prefer them and that is cool but that does not mean it is the most effective times for all.......


----------



## dt36 (Jun 3, 2005)

Guys, I am an old school believer in the "Anabolic Window", as I was guided about this by a fairly high level amatuer bodybuilder on the subject when I was really hard into my training. Paul, you know the guy and I think you would agree that the guy is a lump for his age and level.

The statement he would come out with was along the lines of "Don't break the body down into a catabolic state, only to spend the next day trying to gain back a positive nitrogen balance."

I have dug out some of my old notes and found the following based around the above and something I have tried that works with exceptional results.

3 shake Insulin Protacol based around the training window:

6.15am - 15 min prior to workout: Take 10iu fast acting insulin subq, followed by Shake # 1: 10-20g EEA, 5g Extreme Whey, 25g Maltodextrin, 5g Creatine Monohydrate, ECA stack.

6.30am - Train. After every working set: Sip on shake #2, and finish by end of workout. Shake # 2: 10-20g EEA, 5g Extreme Whey, 25g Maltodextrin, 5g Creatine Monohydrate.

7.15am - Gym changing room. Shake # 3: 1 whole egg, 1 scoop extreme whey, 50g oats.

Guys, this works and then some. If everything else is in place as well with PScarbs previous post regarding meals , sleep etc then expect to make some good gains. Yes, I agree that there is the addition of insulin in here with the shakes, but that is there to shuttle the nutrients into the muscle. However, if this "Window of Opportunity" is a myth, then would this protocol be so effective?

There will be arguments for and against this obviously, and I apologise in advance if I don't activly participate in the debate, but I'm travelling for work at present and am away from home with limited access.


----------



## secretuser (May 30, 2013)

Pscarb said:


> My misunderstanding comes from how you explain your point in prevouise posts, you make a fair few assumptions in your posts yet try to justify your point by following it with lol?? I am not sure why unless you do not like to enter in to a debate about your point of view??
> 
> You are correct the thread is about carbs and so was my point as it followed your incorrect assumption that breakfast is one of the most important times to eat carbs in my opinion it is not, but that is all that is my opinion based on my experience in the BodyBuilding game for over 25yrs......you prefer them and that is cool but that does not mean it is the most effective times for all.......


The lol is habit I guess...

No Im all up for debate and agreed that my miss understood post was a poor post as I did not explain my self as well as I could...

I never actually said it was one of the most "important times"... Just that the body would make better use of the carbs at this time

(then went on to further explain my self on how food in general would be made better use of at this time not just carbs)

So any way Paul what is your opinion based on your 25yrs experience, on carbs in the morning after a prolonged fast to not only break the fast but to also cause an insulin spike?

I would have thought it would have set up a more anabolic environment compared to pro fat?

Id love some insight from you

Surely there are pros and cons to both methods (pro/fat or pro/carb).


----------



## secretuser (May 30, 2013)

dt36 said:


> Guys, I am an old school believer in the "Anabolic Window", as I was guided about this by a fairly high level amatuer bodybuilder on the subject when I was really hard into my training. Paul, you know the guy and I think you would agree that the guy is a lump for his age and level.
> 
> The statement he would come out with was along the lines of "Don't break the body down into a catabolic state, only to spend the next day trying to gain back a positive nitrogen balance."
> 
> ...


Why would you add the egg?

Iv done similar things

I also train in the morning

M1(usually 1-1.5hr pre)-whey cereal

Pre(usually 15min or so pre)-small shake of- Creatine, glutamine, bcaa, dextrose

10-15iu fast acting insulin.

Train- intra workout- much larger shake of- dextrose, bcaa, glutamine, Creatine.

M2-pw- whey dextrose

M3-pro carb meal (depending on phase I may add 10-15iu fast acting insulin)


----------



## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

dt36 said:


> Guys, I am an old school believer in the "Anabolic Window", as I was guided about this by a fairly high level amatuer bodybuilder on the subject when I was really hard into my training. Paul, you know the guy and I think you would agree that the guy is a lump for his age and level.


i do buddy and you cannot argue with someone who wins the Overall Britain when he is 45yrs old.......hope all is well buddy



secretuser said:


> The lol is habit I guess...
> 
> No Im all up for debate and agreed that my miss understood post was a poor post as I did not explain my self as well as I could...
> 
> ...


a prolonged fast is a very different scenario to be fair, the standard is approx 16 - 18hr fast followed by a 6-8hr feed because of this carbs need to be eaten straight away for the individual to be able to get the calories in for the time period it makes no sens having Pro/Fat meals when you have fasted for so long (as the fast is more than likely used for body recomp)

as for the body being more anabolic of course in a fast scenario it would be as you are abstaining from all food for such a long period (food being one of the most anabolic substance) so if you are following a IF diet regime then yes carbs would be used in the first meal and no matter the time that meal is it would be Breakfast as it would be doing just that Breaking the Fast.....

but in this thread we are talking about nutrition for recovery around training and to be fair the most important time to spike insulin and become more anabolic is after training in my opinion not the morning after, in saying that many many guys with better physiques than me use Carbs at breakfast it is not a Do or Don't situation for me it is about your overall goal as an individual, some of the guys and girls i coach have carbs for breakfast most do not but some do as there overall goal warrants it....

so to sum up i believe the most critical time for Carbs is around training this could be Pre/Intra/Post and by post i am not saying within a certain time frame but the meals following training.


----------



## JSTEVO (Oct 4, 2009)

So in light of the conversation, the PWO of pro and carbs is still favourite.

In aspects of carbs post fasted cardio. Then it shouldn't be taken as it stops the fat loss?

For example I do fasted cardio at 0630hrs. Return home and have 100g oats and 40g whey. Then an hour later I'm back in doing weights. The reasons behind this gap is because I have to look after my nipper.

Would it be more beneficial to do fasted cardio, have eggs and then start my carbs as my meals start after my PWO.


----------



## simonthepieman (Jun 11, 2012)

JSTEVO said:


> So in light of the conversation, the PWO of pro and carbs is still favourite.
> 
> In aspects of carbs post fasted cardio. Then it shouldn't be taken as it stops the fat loss?
> 
> ...


Personally I would do it the other way around. A slow digesting protein before weights doesn't sound conducive to a good performance


----------



## DazUKM (Nov 22, 2012)

simonthepieman said:


> Based on any real research of actually results. It appears to matter very little.
> 
> I started training in the morning and doing IF so often have 4-5 hours between training and eating and noticed no difference.
> 
> ...


 :stupid:


----------



## foodaddict (Feb 11, 2013)

simonthepieman said:


> Personally I would do it the other way around. A slow digesting protein before weights doesn't sound conducive to a good performance


But hes having whey mate...you meant slow digesting carbs right? Ie the oats


----------



## foodaddict (Feb 11, 2013)

dt36 said:


> Guys, I am an old school believer in the "Anabolic Window", as I was guided about this by a fairly high level amatuer bodybuilder on the subject when I was really hard into my training. Paul, you know the guy and I think you would agree that the guy is a lump for his age and level.
> 
> The statement he would come out with was along the lines of "Don't break the body down into a catabolic state, only to spend the next day trying to gain back a positive nitrogen balance."
> 
> ...


One of the main things that kept my mind open to the true validity of the anabolic window was this...the preworkout slin protocol. Im keen to try something like this on my next bulk. out of curiosity though mate, like secretuser said, why the whole egg? I thought fats in the insulin window are a big no-no


----------



## simonthepieman (Jun 11, 2012)

foodaddict said:


> But hes having whey mate...you meant slow digesting carbs right? Ie the oats


I though he said have eggs in between cardio and weights.


----------



## dt36 (Jun 3, 2005)

It should be about 5 egg whites, but my ars3 and work mates can't tolerate that many in one go. Hence, I just go for one whole egg. However, the yolk is not a bad fat as it is unsaturated, which is actually good as it is associated with HDL cholesterol. I think sometimes that the yolk of an egg is over demonised due to it containing fat and the misconception of it being linked to LDL cholesterol, which is wrong.

However, as I've stated it should actually be 5 egg whites, but I can't tolerate that many.


----------



## foodaddict (Feb 11, 2013)

simonthepieman said:


> I though he said have eggs in between cardio and weights.


Ahh sorry mate I didn't read his post properly


----------



## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

I will come back to this either later or tomorrow when I have more time to locate some links to some studies that I think are relevant, but a few brief points that I think (others may disagree) are most important:


24 hour nutrition is WAY more important than PWO, intra or PRE supplementation

In the absence of decent 24 hour nutrition, PWO, intra or PRE supplementation will probably show more benefit than if 24 hour nutrition is good

PWO supplementation is most likely more beneficial to an individual training fasted than one training but having fed a decent meal in the previous 4 hours or so

PWO protocols may vary in effectiveness according to type and duration of exercise.

Amount of existing muscle mass, training experience and intensity, and type of training may affect the need and timing or type of workout nutrition that works best


In respect of the anabolic window, there is also another point not often discussed but well observed in clinical studies - the changes in muscles sensitivity to protein and carbs after exercise are different to a newbie than to someone who has been training a long time with a lot of muscle mass.

For a newbie, who's body has not yet adapted fully to training, the period whereby potential for elevated protein synthesis (I say potential because it only happens if you feed protein during this period) is longer than for a more experienced guy - typically around 36 hours for a newb, but only 20-24 for an advanced guy. This change is a form of adaptation to exercise that occurs with time where the body upregulates enzymes that allow for recovery to be increased and tissue remodelling to occur over a shorter time frame.

A second difference is that for a newbie the elevation in sensitivity is a smooth graph - it goes up already during the workout, rises smoothly and gradually drops off back to baseline 36 hours later. The graph is a smooth gentle curve over 36 hours without a specific spike for sensitivity at any one time.

For an advanced guy however it appears that sensitivity spikes very highly very quickly after training, and the drops low much more quickly - roughly 50% of the increased sensitivity takes place in the first 4 hours after training, and in the remaining 18-20 hours the increased sensitivity is only marginally above baseline.

I'll look again for the studies that show this.

What this suggests is that for a newbie, immediate PWO nutrition is not so important so long as 24 hour nutrition is good - but due for a more advanced guy with more muscle mass the optimum strategy might well involve prioritising quality nutrient intake in the 4 hour post exercise recovery period.

Is debatable how much difference it all makes, but there does appear to be a pattern there. Is also a different discussion where PEDs come into the equation, and there may well be other variables that affect the whole system such as where in a calorie excess or deficit. Lots still unanswered and much of this discussion even in scientific journals is theoretical rather than definitively proven - any blogger or 'expert' who tells you things are absolutely understood on this topic is a person to avoid for weak analytical skills. Look for people who have an experienced based opinion but who are open minded to new information.


----------



## dt36 (Jun 3, 2005)

Bumping for @dtlv

Good post above mate and anticipating the update...


----------



## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

dt36 said:


> Bumping for @dtlv
> 
> Good post above mate and anticipating the update...


Hey, thanks for the reminder as I would have forgot. :thumbup1:

This is one of the studies I was thinking of (abstract below, link is to full study):



> Resistance training alters the response of fed state mixed muscle protein synthesis in young men
> 
> Jason E. Tang, Jennifer G. Perco, Daniel R. Moore, Sarah B. Wilkinson, and Stuart M. Phillips
> 
> ...


These two are not specifically looking at the differences between trained and untrained subjects but they throw a lot of points into the discussion -

http://jap.physiology.org/content/73/4/1383.full.pdf+html

http://jap.physiology.org/content/106/6/2026.long#ref-109


----------

