# Newbie



## ChicagoUSA (Dec 8, 2006)

I've been reading here and there and am new to ALL this. I know I have to get a stable steady diet set; then start pulling together a workout routine (I am told the best way to start out is with mulitple compound excersizes) and finally get my ass working. Am I missing anything while I am pulling this all together?

My goal is strength, lean muscle mass to improve what hides under my clothes. I don't want to gain tons of weight but rather lean muscle mass. I don't plan on competing in anyway, but who knows that may change as I get into this.

Wanted to drop a line to say hi and all comments and suggestions are always welcome.

Chris.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

This is my friend Chris from the States.

I directed him here from another board for a more personal help.

Chris many guys on this board are good lads with great knowledge, many of them compete.

You will like it here, guys help and wont flame you.


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## steveg (Nov 24, 2006)

hi and welcome. If you need help, the people here are friendly and helpful, all you have to do is ask


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## ChicagoUSA (Dec 8, 2006)

Thanks for the welcome. Hack has gotten me started down a path that I hope I can follow. He has me on a pretty strict diet to get started and some simple compound excersizes to build some mass to work with. I don't have much mass to work with at this point.

I've been reading around but haven't posted much because, I don't have anything that I can add that you all don't already know.

So let me have it. Work out routines, supps, accessories (belts, gloves) and whatever else you think I need to be successful.

Hope to talk to more of you.

Chris

PS If anyone know someone in Chicago that would like a training partner, I sure could use one. I would benefit from someone more experienced to monitor form and someone to motivate me to push harder. PM if you know of anyone. Thanks.


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## big (Sep 14, 2004)

Welcome dude


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## Nine Pack (Oct 30, 2006)

You have a good mentor in Hack. He knows his stuff, and there's always someone on here that knows what you need to know. I've recently advised Hack on his diet, that's my main passion, and HIT training methods. I've got Hack on a high intensity, 'stay the hell out of the gym' program right now! Only joking, he's taking a week out to recuperate from what seems like overtraining so he can hit the gym with a fresh body & new regime next week.


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## ChicagoUSA (Dec 8, 2006)

Thanks Nine. Yeah Hack mentioned that he was banned from the gym for being a bad boy and overtraining. He's got me on a diet that is soooo much food that it is hard to get it all down each day. My biggest problem is HOW DO YOU DRINK A GALLON OF WATER A DAY!! I came close one day at 3.5 quarts. I just couldn't get that last bit down I was so bloated. I told Hack that either the diet is working or I was so stuffed that my gut was firm because of all the food crammed in there. If you have any tips on diet, I am all ears.

I've also read a lot about supps that some people are using. One person said that they got dehydrated from the supp so drinking that much was no problem. What if any supps should I add to the diet.

I am going tonite to get my BF measured (not sure the calipers will stretch that far) and the rest of my body parts measured. Hack wants a before an after profile. I am also getting with a trainer to make sure that I have proper form for everything Hack wants me to do. He hasn't really defined a routine yet. He's just thrown out some routines that he does but nothing really tailored to me. I'm sure its coming though. His daughter is really really sick so he is more focused on her than anything else right now.

Too bad you said to ask questions because I am a question kind of person. I absorb information like a sponge and then some. I have to know everything and the sooner I get it the more I retain. Long slow teachings don't do me any good, plus I am a very impatient person. I want results like yesterday and build from there.

Sorry for the long post. Good to meet you and I'm sure I'll be asking more in the future.

Chris


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## Nine Pack (Oct 30, 2006)

Think of supplements merely as conveinient forms of food. All I would suggest anybody really needs is:

1) A quality protein supplement providing slow & fast release proteins, not just whey.

2) A high strength multivitamin/mineral formula

3) An essential fatty acid supplement (Udo's, Pro Lipid etc)

4) At a push, some form of joint/connective tissue supplement like glucosamine & chondroitin, but if the EFA's are high, this is not crucial, but won't do any harm.

After that, there's all the other stuff, Creatine, Glutamine, Nox etc that will all help but at this stage, keep it as simple as possible so you can see how you respond to optimal nutrition. Not only that, it will be a darn sight cheaper.

Scott,

I hope your daughter is on the mend. Perhaps a good time for you to be out of the gym, or then again, maybe not.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Yah, Chris is pretty motivated, he wants it right now. Not a bad thing. He did send me some pictures of himself.

He is rather tall and can use a bit of mass.

That gallon of water I actually didnt suggest I suggested a gallon of ice water burned about 150 calories.

Chris is basicly looking to gain some lean muscle and drop some body fat.

It is something that a new guy in the gym can actually achieve.

Being fresh in the gym one can have fantastic gains.

This is why I want him to do basic compound exercises.

I think Chris is the same age as you Paul.

38 right Chris?

For the supps, I prefere fish oils over Udo's, I hope this does not start a debate on EFA's

Most people get enough Omega 6's in their diets in fact for the most part get too many 6's so the ratio of 3 to 6 is a bit off. This increases inflammation and can have its own set of problems.

Anyway, I did suggest Chris to eat 6 meals a day but not huge meals.

When I looked at his diet it just didnt seem like any kind of volume, some where around 1600 calories (at a glance).

But Paul is better to give you a routine over me and Big as well, seems I probably did'nt have it right as a result of overtraining (Or I am just gettin old).

Chris, you can ask all the questions you want right here in your own personal thread. All the information will be right here for you to reflect back on and accessable from any computer.

Some times I store stuff her so I know right where to find it.

As above, supps, creatine, fish oils, multiple vitamin/mineral supplement would do nicely.

Did you get that personal trainer to show you the basic compound exercises?

Did he watch your form and give you advice?


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## ChicagoUSA (Dec 8, 2006)

No, the trainer thing is tonite. I told him what you wanted and he said no problem. I have to tinker with the diet. I think I am eating to much now and putting on weight I don't need.

Big, what do you recommend for diet. I'm 5'10 and currently 165lbs. I should be at 150lbs for my body form. I had a whole year where I couldn't get to the gym because I was working 7 days a week and had no energy to get there, so I am trying to make up for lost time.

I read somewhere else about the water and I know I have been dehydrated for the better part of the last year so I've been trying to keep it up as high as possible. I have all the supps you recommend other than the creatine and protein powder. Recommendations on both?

I so far am responding pretty well to Hacks training recommendations, I can see a difference that wasn't there before. It is leaning out that is kind of top priority right now, then bulking up to where I would like to be.

Hack says you guys are the best and I trust his judgment so let me have it.

Thanks guys!

Chris

PS I am pretty athletically endowed so I hope this new lifting thing fits into that. But, my dad worked on a farm for years and he had no bulk (muscle) to show after 10 years. I am genetically predisposed to be thin, but with a desk job, the over 35 beer belly has grown. Yes, I am 38 as well. I play basketball with kids half my age and they don't believe me when I tell them I am twice their age. I am pretty fast, mobile and agile. At one point, I could almost dunk the ball, and then I wrecked my knees skiing. So much for life long dream of dunking on somebody. Sorry if I ask too many questions but like I said, I am like a sponge and absorb new information which eventually leads to more questions.


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## Nine Pack (Oct 30, 2006)

I know you asked Big, and he'll probably let you have his advice too, but diet is my thing & I can waffle ad infinitum all day on the subject. I'd suggest feeding your lean weight only. Put your protein at 200g, carbs at 300g & let daily variations in meat sources see fats fluctuate between 50-80g a day. This will equate to 2450-2720 cals a day. Split this over 6 meals, allowing for a post workout shake of some simple carbs & hydrolised whey making seven 'meals' in total.

It's better to be a little conservative at first with the cals as it's easier to crank them up a notch than have to start losing bodyfat gained un-necessarily. I won't stick my oar in on the training as it's unfair to your PT, and being a PT myself I know it can be annoying. If you feel the program you are given is not quite right though, just ask. Some PT's are better than others.......


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## ChicagoUSA (Dec 8, 2006)

I'm only using a trainer for form and to make sure I don't hurt myself. He knows this is a one shot deal and is just looking after the afore-mentioned form and proper use of the equipment. Hack is calling the shots at this point. I need to just make my meals smaller. I think I am making them too large and that is the problem. What do you recommend as a good starter. The problem I have is getting a fat and carb into most meals because Hack won't let me go near bread and I hate oatmeal. Opine away.

As I told Hack, I am putty in your hands mold away. I am trying my best to do as he says, but he trusts you guys for imput so, tell me what you think.

Chris

PS Sorry I got you two mixed up. That was my fault. So, the question was more posed to you than Big. He can help on the routine side.


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## Nine Pack (Oct 30, 2006)

I'd just add fats in the form of Udo's, flax seeds, hempseed oil, fish oils or whatever yanks your chain, try to get oily fish three times a week too. Carb wise, wholewheat pasta is fine unless dieting for a show, wholegrain brown rice, sweet potatoes, yams (real yams) and a little bit of fruit in moderation will be ok. I'm going to let slip a little secret here. Look at my avatar......I have wholemeal bread periodically through my pre contest prep, and stop it about two weeks out. Does'nt seem to have done any harm! If it's eaten with some clean fats to slow the absorbtion it's not as evil as is sometimes thought. Besides, if you cut it out altogether as I used to, you may find yourself getting cravings for bread products that are definately off the menu.

I remember once walking through the bakery section of my local supermarket in a carb depleted trance. My wife turned round to see why I was lagging behind & found me eyes welling up & sobbing. This was a new personal low for me. This was an extreme, but if we can stem the cravings with a cleaner source of bread then you will be fine. I'll get Hack on bread soon, he's admitted to being carb phobic and is undergoing 'therapy' in the form of oatmeal for breakfast & supper. He's losing bodyfat too.

Can't believe you hate oatmeal. I flavour it with a bit of Pro Peptide, or cinnamon & nutmeg. In the offseason, I frequently put cashew nut butter in too. It's easily the best meal of the day, that's why I have it twice.


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## ChicagoUSA (Dec 8, 2006)

So I did the PT thing last night. Hack is right I need to add mass but it seems right now that all my mass is located in one spot. You guessed it the gut. I used to be a 32" waist but am upto 35" according to him but that can't be correct because I am wearing 32" waist pants now and I didn't have to lie down to get them on. He was surprised at the weight I could lift though. From memory (I lost the sheet he gave me but is going to fax another one today) I benched 180, leg press 290, lat 110, should press somewhere just over 100. For a skinny little think he was kind of impressed. When we went to do leg press he started at 140 and I told him waste of time jump it to at least 200 to start. He looked at me like you got to be kidding me. This exercise took the longest because he get upping the weight 20lbs at a time. It took forever for me to get to a point where I said 5 reps at this weight is max.

He took all the other measurements which I'll post after I get them but I do remember the BF count. 18%BF not as bad as I thought but certainly not where I want to be. We discussed diet and he kind of agreed with me that that the diet Hack proposed is the way to go but its too much for me. He suggested dropping back from 2000 to 1500 calories a day. I gained 3lbs in a week and wasn't of the good variety.

Ok, so you have to promise me something. When I post all my numbers, no one gets to laugh.  We all have to start somewhere and like I said I was predisposed to a thin frame. Although I did notice that my arm mearuements where higher than anticipated and my leg measurements were lower than anticipated. Go figure.

That said. Suggestions on diet to lower it a little and round it out a little. I'll try, seriously, to add the oatmeal to the mix if we can come up witha modified diet. Problem is I have a desk job so eating so much just sits there and I have no calory output. If I had a manual labor job then, none of this would be a problem.

Chris.


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## Nine Pack (Oct 30, 2006)

1500 cals a day???, you've gotta be kidding! Chris, IMO this is waaaay off. All that's going to happen is that your body will go into catabolic shock & hang on to fat stores for dear life. So many PT's dish out uneducated diet advice that simply consists of 'eat less' if the client has too much bodyfat. It's the current nutritional environment that has created the metabolic state in the first place that led to the accumulation of fat. So why dip calories even more & make it worse? This is what I'll tell my clients, think of your metabolic rate as a waterwheel & clean meals as the water. Now ask yourself how's best to keep the wheel spinning? An irregular flow of food, a small trickle, or regular, substantial clean meals in conjunction with exercise? It ain't rocket science, but so many PT's know squat about nutrition and I get mad when they decide they are in a position to dish out advice. For the record, I am a registered nutritional advisor as well as PT.

Your initial weight gain is a transition period. there will be a brief stage before the metabolism has sped up, where the increase in cals is handled by the body by storing a little fat. This is where most people will panic & either bail completely or reduce cals down to starvation levels.

It's up to you, but I have clients come to me in a similar position, and I nearly always increase their calories. Sounds crazy I know, but spread over the day the body will become more efficient at utilising those cals. with the low cal approach, it will see every single calorie ingested as precious so will hang on to it. Your metabolism will just crash to allow you to survive on such a low intake.

I had a client who came to me wanting to lose fat & not really get big, but just look athletic. After reviewing his food diary it became apparent he was taking an average of 1300 cals a day on board, sedentary job like you. I was not surprised, but he sure as hell was when I upped it to 2500 cals in conjunction with 30 mins pre breakfast cardio five days a week & a one on, one off weights program. He was naturally aprehensive but gave me the benefit of the doubt. Long story short, six months later his bodyfat is down from 19% to 8%, total net weight loss just 7lbs. His body composition has changed beyond recognition, hence the low net weight loss. He now has a cracking set of delts & arms which he loves showing off so wears a vest even when it's freezing, abs clearly visible for the 1st time in his life. On a secondary note, this guy is a 57 year old grandather by the way.

It's better to put more in & burn more out the other end than restrict calories. The human body is a remarkable adaptive organism that can survive well when food is scarce. It's for this reason we are at the top of the food chain. If you want the body to use up it's precious fat reserves, give it signals that food is plentiful, and that it needs to become more efficient at using the nutrients (via exercise). We are in essence creating a slightly artificial environment here, but it's a lifestyle & a look that we adopt because we like it so what the hell.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Wow, damn good posts Paul.

I agree here. I have added in some bread and rice to my diet and in a week I actually lost weight.

I always ask questions to myself and I have decided it could be a combination of two things, thyroid output is higher and cortisol from lack of carbs is probably lower.

Chris, when you first start eating more you will actually get more into an anabolic environment. Like in a way most diets stall, many people that eat more will stall on the weight gains as well.

Remember, muscle weighs more than fat.

The requirement for fuel for muscle is higher if you have more muscle.

You might gain some weight but for the most part the first week or two will be water, this may not be perminant.

If you gain muscle, you probably will gain some weight but this in itself is a good weight.

No obviously 3 pounds a week wont be muscle but you will gain some.

On the jeans deal, my stomach tapes larger than my hips and this is where you wear your pants. I notice about 2" diffrence in my pants compared to taping around the navel.

This is a good thread and Paul has alot to bring to the table.

I also respect your desire to want to change with so much focus Chris.


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## ChicagoUSA (Dec 8, 2006)

I trust you and Hack. I told Hack I was putty in his hand and yours as well. So HELP me get a diet I can stick to. I know I promised to do the oatmeal thing. I'll experiment with it over the weekend when I have time to play. I know Hack gave me a diet plan to follow but by the end of the day I was SO FULL I couldn't stand it. I am still following his instructions but any help you can give that might go against Hack's I am willing to listen too. You mentioned some foods in your previous post that I don't think we have over here and that's part of the problem. Most of our food is processed and your's is by nature more healthy. I don't have a sweet tooth so sugar, cookies, candy are already not part of the diet.

Give me a diet plan. Plus if you are suggesting to add things like dextrose or Pro Peptide, tell me where I can find these things. I know Hack wanted me to add something that I have never heard of; let alone where to get it. You also mentioned a slow and fast release protein powder. What is that? I had a really hard time sleeping last night. I was burning up all night long, not sick just my body was radiating heat. I had a fan on and the window open and was sweating like a pig all nite. I got about 2.5 hours of sleep. Spell out for me an ideal days meals and workout plan.

I trust Hack and he said that you knew more than him so I trust you too. Like I said in an earlier post, "let me have it." I know that you don't have to take time out of your day to help me and any help you do provide will not go unwasted and is greatly appreciated! Supps included. I am doing the fish oil supps already. Fiber isn't that great of a concern because I mostly eat raw broccoli for dinner every night along with some carrots. I just wish I were in Ireland so I could work with you more closely. I could learn a lot from you. Same with Hack. Kind of stuck on an island in Chicago and relying on any help you and Hack can provide. If there is something in the diet that I am allergic to, I'll let you know. There are only basically 3 things. Strawberries, coconut and mushrooms. Everything else is fair game.

Give me everything you got and I will try to follow it to a T.

Thanks a lot!

Chris

PS Haven't heard from Hack in a day or so, I hope his daughter isn't getting worse. And can you please give me a name to call you other than Nine Pack. If you don't, I am ok with that but would prefer to call you by your name.


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## ChicagoUSA (Dec 8, 2006)

So just as I mention that I have not heard from Hack, he posts at the same time I am sending out a post.

What's the word on your daughter? I know the drug they put her on works really well so I hope 24 hours later it has started to help her out.

I sent you an email earlier this morning as well. If you get a chance to look at it.

Chris


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

I cant seem to keep up with all the e-mail's.

At this second I have 42 e-mails on my box.

I just bought a computer that is a really kick ass computer and have been going home and working on that putting everything together.

I just finished last night and it is very impressive.

I have been super busy at work and maybe have just about 30 minutes to get to the boards today.

Actually had an altercation where I told a guy to F-Off and now it seems I am going to have to go to Human Resources for that little deal.

I will get on your e-mails in a sec bro, I did see one in there from my girlfrend so I bet that has to do with my daughter.

Hang tight bro, I will get back with ya.

Also there is an 8 hour time diffrence from there to here. I think less than chicago tho. It is 12:38 right now in the afternoon.


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## Nine Pack (Oct 30, 2006)

Chris,

It's Paul by the way. A fellow competitor once commented on me having too many abs & said I had a nine pack!

I'll put together a sample day's eating plan for you & post it later. Pro Peptide is the protein powder that I use. I know we are'nt supposed to advertise on these posts really but it's made by CNP Professional. I'm a distributor for them too. I don't use it because of that, it's the other way round. The stuff is so good that it sells itself & I've used it for years. It's got a blend of undenatured micellar caesin & whey Slow & fast release). Try www.bestpricenutrition.com , they should do the whole range & are based in Chicago according to CNP. Look under the Dorian yates brand. Anyway, enough of the commercials.

Good sign that you're sweating like a pig. It means your metabolism is speeding up. Either that or you have the plague...hee hee!

You have a better range of clean foods over there than I have here in England, it's just hidden amongst all the crud. Eating clean is quite easy really. Buy your food in it's natural form. A general guide I give clients is (and there are some exceptions), if it comes in a shiny wrapper, it's been messed with so leave it on the shelf. The food industry is, on the whole, evil. Buy food raw in it's most basic form. Apart from when I eat out occasionally I won't eat anything I have'nt prepared myself. I have actually got to the point where I took a tiny set of electronic jewellers scales to a restaurant when I was dieting so I could weigh my steak & potato. My wife sat there, head in her hands, and I knew I'd gone too far!

This isn't helping anyone respect me is it?!


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## DB (Oct 31, 2003)

PB said:


> I have actually got to the point where I took a tiny set of electronic jewellers scales to a restaurant when I was dieting so I could weigh my steak & potato. My wife sat there, head in her hands, and I knew I'd gone too far!


LOL paul that is too far!!! pmsl


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

I bet the sweating is from metabolism speeding up as said above.

Chris, we do have the worlds largest supply of diversity of foods.

A couple of things to ponder too.

Frozen fruits and vegetables generally have a better nutritional profile over fresh. Usually fresh are picked early for transportation and by the time they get to the store, the become ripe and some stuff like tomato's are actually colored or dyed.

Choosing frozen can have your out of season fruits and vegetables year around.

Also, oatmeal (or oat's for you UK dudes), should not be instant, instant otameal usually has a higher Glycemic Index over lets say steel rolled oats, which take some time to cool.

Like Paul suggested, the higher processed foods usually have less nutritional value and are higher in the GI than not so processed foods.

Cooking also changes the GI of the food to the higher end.

So, you can have something like rice or even oatmeal for breakfast or even fruits.

I like fruits in the morning and vegetables in the afternoon.

Oatmeal is fantastic for your first meal, I used to do this every day, it can lower cholesterol as it is considered a heart food.


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## ChicagoUSA (Dec 8, 2006)

Thanks Everyone! Paul stop rubbing your nine pack in everyone's face.  Just because there those that have and those that have not, you should not rub your have into the have not's faces. LOL

OK so last night didn't sweat like I did the night before but I also didn't eat nearly as much as the day before. We had our company xmas party so I saved everything up for the party knowing I would stuff my face with everything available. But I did limit myself to rice, scallops, beef, green beens and some chicken. No dessert. But I don't think the 2nd Martini helped. Hey what can I say. If I have to hang out with the people I see every damn day, I got to have something to numb the pain but not enough to tell them off. But, I am back on track today. This weekend I will spend some time in the kitchen tinkering with items for next weeks food attack.

Some of my post yesterday was just some of the holiday blah's. I have been doing everything Hack said for a couple weeks and then to find out I gained weight was just added to the holiday blah syndrom.

So, Paul I await your posted diet. That should give me the final piece to put together a diet that you all will respect.

Thanks a ton!

Chris

PS Scott what's up with your daughter? Better? Hope so.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Well, I am torn between giving you a full body workout a couple of times a week for starters or a traditional split routine.

What do you think paul for someone just starting out, I know Mick Hart suggest full body workouts and so does cookie.

But at 38 years old you might need an extra day here and there for recouperation.


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## Nine Pack (Oct 30, 2006)

Had a barmy busy day today so will have to put the diet on tomorrow am, but I promise I will.

when I get a client new to training, I tend to go with a three way split, two upper body sessions & one lower, concentrating on basic compound stuff to build good base strength & mass. It can be done over a week, usually mon, wed & fri as that's easiest to follow. A full body workout is ok, but you may find the total systemic stress limits the potential gains you could get right now. I wish I could still grow now like you're going to, this is a really great time for you as the stimulus is so fresh.

Whatever you do, just be aware that the body will adapt only if given sufficient rest & nutrition, so consistency is paramount. take a day off between sessions & eat, eat, eat!

Eat everything that isn't nailed down, and if it is, rip the nail out & eat that too. (provided you weigh the nail & allow for the extra cals!)

DB, you're right, the little scales were a bit too much. Took them to James's but he would'nt let me take them to Nando's!! What a geek I am.


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## Nine Pack (Oct 30, 2006)

Ok Chris, here we go. This is a suggested day's meal plan that will pitch your cals at about 2500 on training days, 2200 on rest days. All weights are raw/uncooked weights.

Breakfast: 60g oatmeal + 40g Pro Peptide (all made in water).

Mid Morning: 120g Chicken/turkey breast + 60g Brown Rice/pasta with salad & veg of choice.

Lunch: Same, 120g Chicken/turkey breast + 60g Brown Rice/pasta with salad & veg of choice.

Mid afternoon: Pro Mr sachet with a medium sized banana

Post workout: 80g Pro recover in water. (training days only)

Dinner: 120g Salmon fillet + 200g sweet potato with green beans/broccoli or any veg.

Supper: As breakfast, 60g oatmeal + 40g Pro Peptide.

This will see approx 300g carbs, 220g protein & 35g naturally occuring fats. I know it looks boring, but hey, welcome to my world. Eating is now a function. Have a couple of cheat meals each week to keep your sanity, but make sure the rest of the week is consistent.

This is a plan that is quite easy to follow during the working week, however it's always preferable to eat solid food where possible. If I'm, off work, I'll only have Pro Peptide at breakfast & supper, the rest of the day's protein is from solid foods. Try to aim for each meal containing roughly 30-35g protein & 40g carbs apart form the post workout drink. Some of these meals have a little more, some a little less, but the daily totals will add up and any variation day to day will serve to keep the metabolism on it's toes. If we ate exactly the same to the gram, day in day out, the body will quickly become accustomed & it will become just maintainance.

I have put together diets for people with things like eggs at breakfast & more solid meals, but they nearly always can't be bothered to prepare so many meals in advance, especially when it comes to cooking the eggs at breakfast.

Prepare the chicken meals the night before & put in the fridge so when it's meal time there's nothing left to chance.

Flavor foods as you wish but keep in mind that sauces etc will have uncalculated calories so I prefer dry seasonings on chicken, or low sugar sauces. Be more concerned with sugars than fats, but also avoid hydrogenated & trans fats. Drink about 2-3 litres of water & make sure you get a good multivitamin formula. That website I suggested does'nt seem to have CNP's vitamin formula, but Solgar is a good brand so check them out.

Hope this helps.

Paul.


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## supercell (Aug 23, 2005)

Paul is a very good friend of mine and believe me he knows his stuff.

He has helped me religiously over the last 6 months and I owe the guy so much for transforming the way I looked on stage by changing and modifying my diet. I too am a personal trainer (but down in the south of England) but I would actually pay Paul to train me if we lived closer, that is how much respect i have for the guy!!

This thread is quite possibly the best thread I have read on this site packed full of excellent advice.

Well done guys and good luck Chris, you got a great team behind you here.

James


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## Nine Pack (Oct 30, 2006)

Thanks James, got a lump in my throat now. No,.....wait, it's a furball!

James is being modest, he's taught me a lot too (still not forgiven him for getting me doing lunges though!). His expertise has built one of the best amateur physiques in the country, so much so that he's entitled to a PDI pro card should he choose to take it. I'm emmensly proud of what he has achieved this year & it was actually a pleasure for me to help him as he's so dedicated & willing to listen to new ideas. It was through helping James that I decided to compete myself this year & we were constantly comparing notes right through. Well they say misery loves company!

I'll be down in the new year James & hopefully if not too late we can get my cameo appearance on your DVD filmed. Think we should do scene of me weighing my chicken in Nando's, then Paula, Nic & you walking out in shame!

Chris,

Any questions, let me know, I've tried to make it as easy to follow as poss. The only problem I can see would be your dislike of oatmeal, but give it a go as it's the perfect breakfast & supper.


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## ChicagoUSA (Dec 8, 2006)

Paul, your diet plan looks pretty doable and easier for me to maintain. Couple of questions. What is this or where do I find it? "Pro Mr sachet" and "Pro recover" and "CNP's vitamin formula" I checked into the Doria Pro Peptide and am seeing if I can get it at a local vitamin shop. I am hoping that the others you recommend are available there too. Tomorrow, I will start with the oatmeal. I promise to make every effort to make it work (liking and eating oatmeal that is).

James, glad to see you have the same appreciation of Paul as I do. If it weren't for Hack directing me here, we wouldn't be talking and meeting new people. Hey I live in Chicago (downtown Chicago) so if anyone is up for holiday and wants to visit, I have plenty of room and you are always welcome to come and stay, for a nominal fee (just kidding). I have a second bedroom that has its own bathroom with a jaccuzi tub to soak your tired muscles after a lond day at the gym. Only requirement is that you have to like dogs. I have an old pug (12 years old) and a French bulldog (4 years old) and they LOVE visitors. I think they are tired of my company, except when its dinner time.

Paul, it seems that your reputation is growing by the moment. Too bad more people don't seek out your advice. I know a lot of people who could benefit from listening to you. Not just body builders but people who are just looking to loose weight and get in a little better shape. James, I am not looking to compete but just want to see something better in the mirror when I wake up. Plus, genetically I am predisposed to having heart problems in the next 10-15 years and the more I can do now to get in the best shape possible the better my chances of prolonging my life and minimizing any health problems.

Cheers and thanks again for all your advice.

Chris


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## Nine Pack (Oct 30, 2006)

Chris,

The Pro Mr is just a meal replacement in a sachet (20 sachet's to a box). The same site I advised does it along with Pro Recover. If you are struggling to find a supplier, CNP here in the UK have an international sales manager, Dave Honeybone. He should be able to advise where to get it. Check out the site & e mail him if required www.cnpprofessional.co.uk

I'm predisposed to health problems with my gene pool too. Both my parent's families are riddled with strokes, angina, heart attacks, you name it. If we live past 50 we are on borrowed time! It's why I live the lifestyle that I do, a monk has a wilder time than me.

No problem on the dog front. My wife & me have 2 dogs too, a 12 year old shepherd/border collie cross & a ten year old Jack Russell, 'my bitches'. Closest I'll get to kids, but at least they'll never ask to borrow the car.


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## chrisj22 (Mar 22, 2006)

Nine Pack said:


> No problem on the dog front. My wife & me have 2 dogs too, a 12 year old shepherd/border collie cross & a ten year old Jack Russell, 'my bitches'. Closest I'll get to kids, but at least they'll never ask to borrow the car.


Paul,

Everytime I read a post of yours I end up ****ing myself. Superb way of putting things.


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## ChicagoUSA (Dec 8, 2006)

Paul, the local vitamin shop had the Dorian Yates Pro Peptide, so I am assuming they will have the Pro Recovery. The sachets you mentioned. What is the difference between those and the MRP that I currently have? Here is a link. http://www.supplementwarehouse.com/viewitem.asp?idproduct=1522 Or are they pretty much the same thing. Add some creatine to the post workout Pro Recovery shake? So tomorrow morning I hit the grocery store and get some oatmeal and make it work. Plus cook some chicken for all meals for the week. I assume you recommend salmon for dinner because of the omega 3 fatty acids. I am also taking fish oil supps to help not eat salmon every night. Otherwise, I have everything good to go.

Thanks and have a great Saturday night.

Chris

PS Not to say anything bad about Paul and his diet plan, I like your plan and seems easier for me to achieve and follow. But it pretty much mimicks Paul's but the addition of pasta is a bonus and makes lunch time easier to make and plan. A pasta salad with veggies, chicken, a little garlic and olive oil. Good to go. Next week rice, veggies, chicken and a little garlic and have a dietary "Fried" rice lunch. I can do that. For breakfast oatmeal with the Pro Peptide added to it or each separate?


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## supercell (Aug 23, 2005)

Chris,

Its great to see you making these lifestyle changes; trust me you'll never look back. Although you may never wish to grace the BBing stage, a lot can be learnt from the BBers lifestyle for guys like you who want to change how they feel and look. Best of luck.

Thanks Paul,

Would love to see you in New year and Paula (thanks for the recipes Nic said). We now also have a bed in the spare room!!!! Better than that water bed eh Paul?!! Be good to train and compare notes etc and be real anoraks for a couple of days!!! Drive the women bonkers it would... Oh well they can go and do the Jan sales shop thingy.

J


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## ChicagoUSA (Dec 8, 2006)

J, that is the reason Hack sent me to this site. He said that you guys were the best, nicest and knowlegeable people I would find to hlp me transform my scrawny, pencil legged, beer bellied lazy ass into something that someone (guy or girl) would want to do. If I can get the body I am looking for, I don't care who it is that wants me as long as I know that I make them want me more than they want my sense of humor or a nice personality. You know the answers to what I'm talking about. First thing every girl wants is a guy with a great sense of humor and a good personality. The first f***ing thing she wants is to see you naked. The personality comes the next morning when you give her either cab fare home or a ride home. I am just kidding!!! See I have a great sense of humor.

I am doing this more for myself than anyone. I tried once 4 years ago for a few months but never got a solid diet, worked out like a rabid dog and had nothing to show for it so I gave it up. This time it's going to work and I am going to get the body I want.

You guys have such huge, defined and honed bodies. What can I NOT learn from you! You have the world to offer me to reach my goals. I do have a person I found on another similar site that I am using as my avatar. He is flattered that I aspire to get to look like him but he has exactly the physique I am looking to build. Here is a link to his bio and photos of his before and after. I look a little better than his before but no where near his after. http://forum.bodybuilding.com/photo/showgallery.php?ppuser=422503&cat=500

When I get some confidence built up and a little something to show, I'll post some before and after pictures.

J if you have anything to add that Paul has over looked, please feel free to post it.

Paul, I have everything needed for next week to follow your diet to a T, even the oatmeal. I only have two lingering questions for you to answer. See my previous post re oatmeal and Pro Peptide and the MRP differences. Once those are resolved I am off to the races cooking away tomorrow. I am also doing a combination of your and Paul's workout regimine as well. I like yours because I can spend more time on fewer body parts per workout but am also using Paul's theory of doing 3 sets at lower weight to warm up and then one huge set to failure. Is it true that heavier weight and less reps builds and lower weights and more reps tone? I am not quite sure on a specific workout pattern yet. I've been working to much on making the diet gets there first. I know that you have to vary the workout in order to keep the muscle's guessing as to what is coming next and not get into a patterned routine. J, any suggestions.

Off to walk the dogs. Check in with you all tomorrow. Hope you had a good nite.

Chris


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## supercell (Aug 23, 2005)

Chris,

I laughed real hard when I read your post.

As far as training goes the sets I normally follow are. 2 warm up sets and then one till a cant do any more (failure) per exercise and I may do 2-4 exercises per body part depending on its size.

With reps I personally favour the 10-15 range (I never go below 10) and this works for me. Yes if I go lower on reps and heavier on weight then I get strong but dont seen to change the muscle size plus my incidence of injuries increase.

I tend to favour the upper end of the rep range for a body part such as quads which I personally feel can take a few more reps to really break those fibres down. Remember we are using these muscles pretty much all of the day carrying our body weight around.

With time you will find out what works best but to be honest when you first start out lifting you will pretty much gain muscular mass no matter what protocol you follow. But as you know, and as I am sure the other guys will tell you, we all made lots of mistakes at first so for you having this kind of info is invaluable as it will save a lot of time and unnecessary experimentation in the longer run.

J


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## Nine Pack (Oct 30, 2006)

James is spot on there. Pretty much any rep range will see you yield results at this stage, so long as it's not taken to the extreme.

So long as you work the muscle to failure on the last set of each exercise only (preceeding sets purely rehearsal & warm up with little fatigue to avoid compromising main set) then you will see results. I will use between 2 & 3 exercises per bodypart, and occasionally 4, but the fourth will only be one set.

I think I covered your other questions in my private message but I'll paste it below so everyone can see it:

As far as protein shakes are concerned, there are basically 3 types that you will be using:

1) A straightforward protein powder like the Pro peptide. This is a mix of undenatured micellar caesin & a small amount of whey to give a graduated release. Just whey on it's own is only really of use post workout. The dry weight of Pro peptide is 70% protein, 10% carbs and this should be your benchmark if using other brands, but CNP is by far the best on the market, just not marketed well, but I'm working with them on that as we speak.

2) A meal replacer powder (MRP) like the Pro MR (MR meaning meal replacer). These are protein with some added carbs to make up a low carb meal with plenty of protein. Most MRP's will have about 20g carbs & anywhere from 35g to 50g protein (Pro MR is 42g protein & 19g carbs)

3) Post workout protein/carb formulas. Pro recover was the first of it's kind on the market & is still the best. 48g simple carbs & 24g hydrolysed whey, all giving fast absorbtion. This is the ONLY time of the day when we have specifically fast absorbed nutrients as we are super sensitive after training.

All of these should be mixed in water ONLY. Any protein powder that requires mixing in milk is clearly sub standard if it requires the added protein from the milk. Not only that, CNP go to great lengths to ensure all thier products are virtually lactose free so why ruin it?

As far as women go & your appearance, having a great physique may not be the thing they are looking for. I'm married now, but when I met Paula, I weighed about as much as a fish fart (less than 130lbs), it was my waist length hair that did it for her then. I think she prefers the new me though. I love it when some women cringe, & say they don't like that much muscle. I just say, it's ok, I did'nt build it for you! On the whole though, most women will at least appreciate the fact that you take pride in your appearance and coupled with a great personality (note to self: must get me one of those too) you'll be beating them away with a stick in no time.


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## ChicagoUSA (Dec 8, 2006)

Ok Paul, so the Pro Peptide is used WITH not IN the oatmeal and the MRP that I have is certainly acceptable to use. I was confusing you with SteveG. Sorry about that. It's hard when people don't give you a name but just use their screenname. So, since you don't live in Ireland, I guess you can't come visit to Chicago.  You're always welcome! The kids too. I have plenty of room and live close to downtown so it is easy to see all there is to see. And as of May, I'll have a new boat to take people out for a swim and see the cith from Lake Michigan. The city looks fantastic from the lake. The boat is just big enough that you and the family could use it as a mobile hotel room. I can't wait till spring to use it. It has air conditioning, tv, microwave, sleeps 4. It's pretty sweet.

As far as my routine goes, I do two set of 10 to warm up and then up the weight and if I squeeze out another 10 jump it again until I can only get 5-6 reps up. I at least try to get 6 reps on the last set. If I only get 3, I back the weight down a tad and try to get 4-5 more reps in. I am doing Hack's routine, more or less, upper body one day; lower body the next. The day between is mild cardio with a few light weight reps for biceps, triceps, chest, lats. More like a set or two of warm up sets before I do a mild cardio run. The personal trainer I saw said to do cardio after some weight lifting because the body burns all its fuel lifting and then goes to fat for fuel for the cardio. Paul, your thoughts?

But since Hack only has me doing the basic compound excersizes, I am not working individual body parts but more the body as a whole. First goal is to lower that BF count and build some mass to start working with.

Well gotta take the dogs to get coffee and get cooking lunches.

Thanks everyone and keep the tips coming.

Chris


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## ChicagoUSA (Dec 8, 2006)

Paul, when you mention salad and veggies of choice for both lunches, what do you have in mind? A bowl of lettuce or veggies added to the rice/pasta.

I was going to make brown rice mixed with cut up broccoli, green beans, carrots and peas along with the chicken. You want me to add a salad of what to that.

For the pasta, I was going to make whole grain pasta with same veggies, garlic and olive oil as above and chicken. The rice dish is going to be hot but the pasta is going to be cold. I am adding more broccoli than any other veggies because of the fiber factor.

Please clarify what you mean by adding a salad. Lettuce has no nutritional value other than water unless you mean spinach for additional fiber.

Sorry for so many questions.

Chris.

PS If you pm me, I will give you my email address so you can talk more freely, plus I have 24 hour access to my email via blackberry. Thanks.


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## Nine Pack (Oct 30, 2006)

Chris,

Veggies wise, anything is ok really, don't worry. At this stage, I don't want you to get too hung up on the fact that some veggies are more starchy carbs than fibrous, but try to stick to broccolli, green beans, spinach, cauliflower, sprouts, salads etc. Dark green stuff on the whole, but if a few carrots & peas sneak in for now it's not a big deal. Veg is there to provide texture & bulk, add minerals & vitamins & to slow absorbtion. I'd like to see you settle properly into this type of eating pattern first, then at a later stage it may be worth looking at other methods (carb cycling etc).

The diet is clean & easy to maintain, which is vital if you are to stick to it in these early stages. No matter how resolute someone is, if a new regime is such a radical departure from their old way of eating, it can result in them getting p**sed off with it, so simplicity is the best approach right now.

You can add pro peptide dry into the oatmeal, just do it after the oatmeal is cooked, NOT before. It makes no odds really.

Your PT is correct in saying that cardio is more effective after weights, as you will have used glycogen stores first. For your puposes however, rest days mean rest from resistance work altogether, so just do the cardio & leave the weights alone. On these days, if you want to get maximum benefit from cardio, do it before breakfast. I do ALL my cardio at home pre breakfast.

Training wise, you will find a 'groove' soon so that you'll be able to know what weight you need to use to hit failure at 6-8 reps or so, but in the meantime there will always be a trial & error period where you may do a few sets too many but don't stress over it. You'll quickly find the weight you need to fail on each exercise atfer 2-3 warmup sets, then it's just a matter of making sure to progress from that point. When you get to the point where you can do 10 reps with a weight you used to fail at 8 reps, up it in small increments till your reps drop back to 6-8 on the failure set. This will see the body continuing to respond by adaptation. It's a simple principle really, it's called progressive resistance.


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## ChicagoUSA (Dec 8, 2006)

All sounds good and doable. First full week of strict diet and routine. I'll keep you posted as to results.

Thanks for all the advice.

Chris


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

What a fantastic thread, tons of information on the whole gammit of body building.

I invited Chris here because I know how this board it.

Many American boards have far too many flames.

Anyway, Chris, I workout for myself, I dont do it to attract women, I do it for me because I enjoy doing it, and it makes me feel better about myself.

Some times we need some growth to help us feel like we are moving fwd. So, going to school for instance to learn about something would be growth of the mind so to speak. This can make one happy.

Or going to church helps our spiritual man to grow, this too is good and can make one happy.

So, nailing your diet and with the workout routine, you will feel better about yourself, knowing that you are supplying the body with good foods in the proper macro's to sustain better health for the mind and body.

Adding in the resistance training, you will get stronger (another form of growth), harder, leaner. All this will help you go in the direction you are looking for.

Nothing feels as good as getting your goal.

You have taken steps twards your goal, by signing up here, getting your diet in check and having an awesome routine.

Each day, as you take steps twards your goal you will feel better about yourself.

After all this is for you, and you deserve it.

*I start Paul's routine today, I cant wait.*

Good luck Chris, but you wont need it.


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## ChicagoUSA (Dec 8, 2006)

Good to see you back Hack. I liked Paul's workout but don't have that much time to put into working out with work and all. I do like his routine though, but I found your workout to be more doable timewise. Once I get your (Hack), I might start to add some of Paul's excersizes in and start working specific body parts. I first need to loos some weight and build some mass so that there is something to work with when it comes time to do Paul's routine.

Hack, is your one week ban from the gym over? Hope you learned your lesson about over training.  Like I have any room giving you advice. My purpose here is to shut up, listen and do as I'm told.

Day 1 one meal down; second one coming up shortly.

Thanks all.

Chris


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Yep, I am doing a routine Paul suggested starting today, I am pretty excited.

That overtraining will short change you every time and leave you with injuries.

I think it was about 11 days total for the layoff and actually have not seen and shrinkage to be honest.

Cant wait to see what it feels like in the gym.

Chris, you would be surprised how little time in the gym you will need. And this even goes double for you just starting out.

I like the idea of lower volume and higher intensity.

I know of guys that spend hours in the gym, I dont think that is necessary TBH, and potentially counter productive.

Yah Chris, stick to the basics now, this is where you are building on a foundation.

Not too much need to lose weight, with your training lifting weights can burn fat for up to 3 days (using fuel to recover). You could very well not lose any weight and end up gaining muscle and losing fat.

Its not unheard of.

You have every reason to stay optomistic.

Your thread should be an inspiration to others and also keep you in focus and accountable to others, this is also important as we all need accountablility, either to ourselves and or others.

The basic compound exercises you will be doing are what will build your foundation.

As you are aware this is the start of any building process whether you are building a building or a body.

Cant build the house without a foundation first.

Your foundation will be basic compund exercises.

Your raw materials will be your new and improved diet (good materials eh?).

Each week you will notice you will be going up in weight (weights), might be a good time to make some realistic goals.


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## Nine Pack (Oct 30, 2006)

Think hack's gym sent a wreath to his house he'd been away so long!!


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## ChicagoUSA (Dec 8, 2006)

Well he can return it today when he walks thru the door to conquer the weights again. Wow 11 days off. Pretty impressive layoff for someone so into the BB thing.

Hope it goes well!

Chris


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

I went today to the gym following for the most part Paul's advice.

I honestly felt I didnt do enough, but I did not feel grindy in my joints.

Strength was very good, didnt lose anything at all actually in fact some of my lifts were up.

My workout partner did just what I did so we both are going the Master Booth workout routine.

My partner kept asking me what we were doing tomorrow. I told him, you can do what ever you want but I am taking the day off

So Paul, what do you want me to do on my off days?

Sorry to hyjack the thread Chris.

Thanks Mr. Booth.


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## ChicagoUSA (Dec 8, 2006)

Hijack away. Just more for me to learn when you don't listen to Paul again and get banned from the gym. 

Paul, diet today was super simple. Thanks for that. Ate everything and don't feel like I gained 20lbs. I made some good stuff too. Could have eaten more but stayed within the guidelines. I am a professional chef so I can taylor your diet. I made an Italian dish out of the pasta and an Oriental dish out of the rice. Next week, I'll Thai with noodles and American with the rice. Want recipies, just let me know. No added sugars or starches.

Chris


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## ChicagoUSA (Dec 8, 2006)

Paul, I can't obtain the Post Recovery shake mix that you suggest for after workouts. 

Alternatives? You are a seller of Dorian Yates products how much are the shakes from you? Or do you have an equal alternative that I can get here in Chicago?

Only one place in Chicago sells it and they said that their stock is being held up in customs. Go figure.

Please advise. This is where the time difference works to my advantage. I get a recommendation early in the morning and can make it happen before my workout 9 hours later.

Thanks

Chris


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## ChicagoUSA (Dec 8, 2006)

Ok Paul I gotta be honest. I tried. I tried twice. But the oatmeal thing just isn't setting well with my stomach. I tried it with a little cream and sugar (a pinch). I tried it with Pro Peptide in it for flavor but now my stomach is churning and am feeling a little on the ill side.

What other options can you come up with for breakfast besides the oatmeal? I don't want to try the instant oatmeals because it is a processed food. I tried and I can give it one more day but I don't think it's going to help. I have followed everything else to a T but the oatmeal.

Sorry I let you down.

Chris


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## invisiblekid (Jun 18, 2006)

Feel free to post as many recipies as you like Chris!

One suggestion is to possibly drink your breakfast? I know its not ideal but would super fine oats and Pro Peptide mixed in a shake be a solution?


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## Nine Pack (Oct 30, 2006)

Chris,

Don't panic, there is life beyond oatmeal. Now you have tried it, and genuinely can't keep it up (or down), I suggest you have wholemeal toast if that's easier to bear. A couple of slices should do the trick, but keep spreads to a minimum. If you can find a good brand of peanut butter with no palm oil in it, have a thin smear on the toast. Here's a weird one, make the pro pep into a paste with just a trickle of water & spread it on your toast. Hey presto, choc spread that's nutritionally perfect!  Failing that, do what I do, I put a tiny drizzle of walnut oil on toast instead of butter etc. It's delicious too & if you get a good one, the fats will be unmolested & clean. The fats will do you good, and in the morning will be used for energy, not stored, and will also slow the absorbtion of the bread.

As far as Pro Recover goes, does that website I advised not have any? It appears on the site if you scroll down, read carefully as all the tubs look the same. Failing that, look for Vitargo. It's a long chain polymer but is absorbed rapidly like a simple sugar, you will need enough to supply about 50g carbs. James llewellin advises me about 55g dry vitargo is equivalent. He uses it all the time along with 55g whey isolate as he has problems with crashing after simple carbs, and sees good results. Take it along with a basic whey protein, any whey will be ok (protein powder serving to supply only 25g protein).

Scott,

Rest days are ok for you to do a little pre breakfast cardio if you want. That's all you really need to do, and eat, eat eat!

You felt like you had'nt done enough - that's EXACTLY what I was looking for. What you have done however, if you went to true failure, is fatigue the muscle & sent a message that it now needs to adapt. You have done this with minimal sets, and therefore avoided digging too deep into your recovery reserve. This encapsulates the whole principle in a nutshell. Send the signal to adapt with minimal sets (making sure to be warm & ready though), and allow the body to recover & come back bigger & stronger instead of pounding it so hard & for so long that it takes all the week's rest & nutrition just to get back to where we started from in the first place (the 'running up a down escalator' mistake most will make).

Picture your workout as a guy digging a hole, the longer we dig for, the deeper we go down into the ground. The recovery phase is that same guy refilling the hole. The quicker the body can recover (the hole is filled & ground flat again), then the quicker the body can set about adaptive growth processes (imagine earth piled up above the original level, this is new growth). we want to do the job right but at the same time, dig as shallow a hole as possible.The body can't adapt & grow while the muscle is still inflamed & recovering (while the hole is being refilled), this process comes mainly after that, ie when the soreness has gone. Most people will see the departure of the soreness as the green light to hit that muscle again, but they will interrupt the whole adaptive process before it has even begun, remember that guy running up a 'down' escalator. Unless we allow time to adapt, we'll be on that escalator with all the other guys who we see year in, year out, looking the same as they did years ago but are too stubborn to admit they've made no real progress so keep doing the same thing they always did in the hope that someday their body will inexplicably decide to respond. Madness.

Anyway, I'm wasting away to normal so gotta go eat. Having Nando's for lunch. If you don't have it in the US, you don't know what you're missing!

mg:


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## ChicagoUSA (Dec 8, 2006)

Don't have Nando's. What is it? I might be able to replicate it.

I'll try the whole bread idea with little to nothing on it. I do know where I can get some whole peanut butter, no additives, so that is no problem.

Invisiblekid, that was my last attempt at oatmeal was to do the protein shake with oatmeal blended. That's what made me feel the sickest. Let me know what type of recipies or cooking suggestions you would like and I'll post anything you want.

Chris

PS Paul, I loved your lecture to Hack about his over working out. I am sure I will fall into the same trap as he did and will have this to remind me not to do it.


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## ah24 (Jun 25, 2006)

Chris, nandos is like a chicken restaurant..sister company of franky and bennies i think..

Bloody lovely in there and good prices to Just got one put up near me.

Yeah, stock up on that peanut butter mate, also try having a couple of spoonfuls before bed or in the morning if ya still a lil peckish


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## Nine Pack (Oct 30, 2006)

Nando's is Portugese Piri Piri. Very clean (on the whole) food that me & James are borderline addicted to. We even have it during contest prep as the weekly treat keeps the insanity at bay.....a bit.

James has it so often I'm trying to get him an endorsement deal with them. They seem reluctant to reply to my e mails though! I sent then a pic of him so they probably just think I'm some loon. Imagine the billboard ads, James in posing trunks & comedy chicken feet & a beak!! :flypig:


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## chrisj22 (Mar 22, 2006)

Paul,

From being based around the same neck of the woods as you, and based on the information I've searched on looking for my nearest Nando's, does Southport ring any bells as being the nearest to you?

Saying that, the Trafford Centre is probably nearer for you isn't it?


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## DB (Oct 31, 2003)

man its all about frango's!!

like nando's actually the same menu and lay out exactly just nicer food... yes its possible trust me!!

anyone who would like to dine with me in kingstong let me know!!


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## ChicagoUSA (Dec 8, 2006)

We have a restaurant called Fogo de Chao which is a Brazilian restaurant. Salad bar with a bigger selection than most restuarant's entire menu. Then they bring giant skewers of roasted beef, chicken, sausage, pork, lamb around and cut it off the bone right on your plate. Quite expensive but if you have a BIG appetite, it's well worth the money. I have a thai place around the corner from me that seems pretty healthy. Paul your thoughts on my favorite dish. Roasted pork, rice noodles, green onion, bean sprouts and crushed peanuts. No sauce and no other spices. I could eat that everyday. But every once in awhile you just gotta have steamed pork dumplings to go with and a spiced soy sauce to dip. I know the sodium problem. But otherwise, it seems like it fits into the diet pretty well.

I make a killer Mole sauce which I braise pork in but the mole sauce doesnt' fit the diet. But then again, it might. It's only vegetables, cocoa, spices and peanuts blended into a thick puree. Makes a great sauce for just about anything. It even has a banana in it, supposed to be a plantain but a banana is a little sweeter.

Speaking of which, lunch no. 1 time.

More later.

Chris


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Hey Paul, like the analogy of the digging the hole, that was cool and fully understood.

I am sore today but expected to be with the layoff.

I just trained winger today with your routine recommendations.

One thing though, many peanut butter has hydrogenated oils, some even have trans fats, these should be avoided at all cost, the label will tell you if there is or not.

Paul, what is wrong with butter?

I have so much information on butter that it would take you a day to read.

Here is a link here to some stuff on butter if you get the chance: http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/food-diet-nutrition-info/8674-butter-margarine-info-very-interesting.html?highlight=butrate

My opinions on butter are this, as long as you are using in moderation I feel it is completly fine.

If it is about cholesterol, I have some articles on that too, which is way over hyped.

Anyway, great thread, good luck Chris, and thanks Paul.......


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## ChicagoUSA (Dec 8, 2006)

I understand Paul's concern and I understand Hack's concern. Paul is looking more toward the protein end of using peanut butter, but I think, Hack is more concerned with the saturated fats. I am perfectly happy eating a good hearty bread by itself. But I know that Paul wants the added protein missing from the oatmeal. I am going to Whole Foods to look for an organic or non-processed peanut butter that adds the protein but doesn't have the saturated fats and hydrogenated oils that is Hack's concern and a hand made whole grain bread. I like 12 grain types of bread.

Hack do I have it right or am I missing the point?

Chris

PS I woke up this morning and I was starving. Never happened before. I usually don't eat till mid-day but this morning, I mixed a shake before I even fed the dogs. They were not quite happy with me eating first. Is this normal, should I wake up feeling hungry.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

ChicagoUSA said:


> I understand Paul's concern and I understand Hack's concern. Paul is looking more toward the protein end of using peanut butter, but I think, Hack is more concerned with the saturated fats. I am perfectly happy eating a good hearty bread by itself. But I know that Paul wants the added protein missing from the oatmeal. I am going to Whole Foods to look for an organic or non-processed peanut butter that adds the protein but doesn't have the saturated fats and hydrogenated oils that is Hack's concern and a hand made whole grain bread. I like 12 grain types of bread.
> 
> Hack do I have it right or am I missing the point?


Peanut butter is usually added for fats not protein.

So, yes and no.

Let me explain.

There are many diffrent kinds of fats, monounsaturated fats, polyunsaturated fats, saturated fats, fatty acids. All fats have a place in the diet.

Now some will vary greatly on which percentage is to be used for overall good health but for the most part I will keep it simple.

I feel that about a third of the diet should come from saturated fats, quite possibly even more. After all beef, chicken, and pork all have saturated fats in them and I seriously doubt our ancestors removed the fat from the meat prior to cooking or prior to eating, in fact the contrary existed.

Diffrent fats do diffrent things and have diffrent effects on the body.

But to keep it simple, eat all your fats, but do not eat hydrogenated fats, trans fats or rancid fats.

Many processes in making vegetable oils result in the oil being rancid. This is not good and can leave the oil to spoiling.

Peanut butter is mostly fat, with some protein and some carbohydrates.

Beings that it is a nut oil, it will be monounsaturated, avacado is monounsaturated as well, so are olives and olive oils.

So, all in all peanuts are not used for protein although they have about 1/4 their calories come from protein, that is not the main source of calories, it is from fat, 1/2 of the caloires.


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## Nine Pack (Oct 30, 2006)

ChrisJ,

I was in Nando's at the trafford centre today as it happens. Double chicken breast in a pitta with a large spicy rice & a gallon of diet coke. Nice. Never heard of Frangos' though DB. Pity they don't do a wholemeal pitta but it was my weeks cheat meal so stuff it! I won't tell you all what James has had today..................

Chris S,

Pork dumplings?! hmm, each to his own I suppose but not my bag. Careful with the sauces though bud, as I say it's easy to impact on the carbs if you're not careful as these things have a myriad of ingredients. Rice noodles are ok, as a treat meal, but unless you can show me a tree that these noodles grow on, I'll assume they're processed as any noodle would be & so should'nt form part of your staple carb intake. Remember, eat food in it's base form. Even a complex carb like rice can be absorbed as quickly as a simple sugar if it's overly processed, although I doubt they use wholegrain rice to make noodles.

Scott,

I know butter is ok in moderation & it's far better than so called 'healthy' margarines, but that's a bit like saying rabies is better than bochelism. Unless it's churned by hand at home then it will have undergone some form of processing, and usually heating too. I only use a peanut butter now made by Meridian. All it is made from is peanuts, no added palm oils, or any other oils for that matter. It's basically just schmushed up peanuts. Because of this it only has a short shelf life of about nine minutes but I don't mind.

Saturated fats in thier naturally occurring forms are actually ok contrary to popular opinion. We need some saturated fats and so it's best to source from the cleanest food we can get. Also keep in mind that they are to be eaten only as a tiny proportion of our fat intake. Any fats that have been heated will suffer at least some degree of degredation, even a stable molecule like a saturated fat, so I only use fats cold.

Good to see you're waking up hungry Chris. This is another sign that your body is beginning to recognise that there is a steady supply of nutrients coming & has an elevated BMR. You'll not need a clock to tell you when to eat. After an hour or so, you'll be ready to gnaw your own foot off! All good signs, keep up the good work.

On a secondary note, you ought to be feeding the dogs after you anyway. They'll think that they are above you in the pack order. I love my dogs to bits, but they are in no doubt as to who's the boss. 'Me alpha male, you pond life' I tell them!!


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## ChicagoUSA (Dec 8, 2006)

My dogs would kill me in my sleep if I didn't put them first or at least share what I'm having.  It's easier to feed them first and then myself, otherwise they are standing under foot looking for the first crumb to drop. If they are eating, they are at least out of the way and by then we are all done eating and time for the morning walk.

I will keep all those comments in mind when looking for a whole grain bread and peanut butter. I know just the store to find both.

If I get going on the butter, it leads to more more more more and that's not good. So Hack, I got to stay away from the butter. Another downfall. The less pitfalls, the better I'll be able to grab onto this and make it a daily routine. The getting up early to run part is going to be the hardest part of it all. I like my sleeping in and a good afternoon nap on the couch.

Paul, I'll have to send you a picture of my two kids and you'll see what I mean about "me first" syndrome.

Chris


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## Nine Pack (Oct 30, 2006)

Think I may have been a little harsh on the butter issue, did'nt mean to come accross as being sarcastic. I have an inherent distrust of the food industry, and the ones that produce fats are usually guilty of the worst offences, even some of the butter manufacturers.

Butter is ok in moderation, and I agree it's delicious, but as Chris says, he'd struggle to regulate the amount so it's best for him to avoid it altogether & stick to purer, cleaner fat sources.


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## chrisj22 (Mar 22, 2006)

Nine Pack said:


> ChrisJ,
> 
> I was in Nando's at the trafford centre today as it happens. Double chicken breast in a pitta with a large spicy rice & a gallon of diet coke. Nice. Never heard of Frangos' though DB. Pity they don't do a wholemeal pitta but it was my weeks cheat meal so stuff it! I won't tell you all what James has had today..................


I think I'm going to bomb down to the trafford centre on friday to do some last minute christmas shopping (well that's what i'll tell the girlfriend), and try out the Nando's for the first time.

Looking forward to the GALLON of diet coke...lmao


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Paul, in the way I was carbohydrate phobic, I think you are a bit fat phobic.

I have some interesting stuff on butter and fats. I have quite some compelling articles on Fats that would change your mind if you read it.

For example calf's if they dont get the full fat in their milk and have that fat substituted with other fats, they either die or end up very unhealthy.

Mothers milk is totally loaded with fat over half, it is totally necessary for brain development.

Again many fats especially vegetable fats use alot of heat (230 degrees), unless the fat is cold pressed and no solvents are used you end up better off.

Many vegetable oils use massive presses that exert tremendous amout of pressure (10 to 20 tons per inch) and this by itself super heats the oil again, potentially changing the fat.

If that wasnt bad enough the last 10% is extracted using a solvent (usually Hexane), the solvent is usually boiled off (another heating process).

This can leave up to 100 parts per million.

High-temperature processing causes the weak carbon bonds to break apart making that oil rancid.

BHT and BHA are then often added to these oils to replace Vitamin E and other natural preservitives often destroyed by heat.

For me, I see no harm in using butter, my parents, grandparents and all realitives of past used butter.

But I do agree, organic might be the best bet.

I do believe some of the intgregity of butter, and meat for that matter has been compromised due to the lack of free ranging our cows.

Paul, have you heard of: The Framingham Heart Study?


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## Nine Pack (Oct 30, 2006)

scott,

Not heard of that particular study. I am actually a big believer in clean fats and take on board anywhere between 100g & 120g a day, so I'm far from being fat phobic. In recent years I may have been, but since I started experimenting with fats 2 or 3 years ago, I have made massive gains and been able to get myself down to riduculous levels of bodyfat for competition whilst consuming higher amounts of fat than most guys would eat in the offseason.

This year, I got so far down, that on a 4 site skinfold test, the sum total of all four sites was just 4mm. My charts did'nt go anywhere near that low so I can only guess at the % figure, but with skinfolds totalling 10mm, I would have been 5.05%. I was less than half that skinfold total so who knows? All I know is my wife would'nt go near me as she hates it when I get so cut up and it hurt to sit down, even on a sofa!

I have waded my way through Udo Erasmus' books and come out the back of it all with even more distrust of the food industry, and a headache as you need a degree in biochemistry to understand most of it. I'm not distrustful to the point of paranoia though, because after all, no one forces me to eat processed food. I just choose to buy food in it's simplest form possible and then flavour it as cleanly as I can where it's needed.

Fat is wonderful stuff, if it's not molested. I know past generations have managed quite well whilst still using butter, but we are trying to create, in effect, an artificial environment where everything is as clean & nutritious as possible so we can get the optimum results from our training. This means as little processing of food as possible, so fats will be from EV olive oil, Udo's or similar blends, flax seeds (ground freshly just before eating), avocado's, salmon or other oily fish (preferably wild), oats, walnuts etc.

Scott, I forgot to send a list of exercises for you, my apologies, I will do it later. :doh:


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## ChicagoUSA (Dec 8, 2006)

Here is an excerpt of an email I sent to Hack last night. Paul what is your opinion.

"Just finished my workout. I don't get it. I lost 3.5 lbs but no strength gains. Somw of the weights I did last week seemed much harder to do tonite. I wasn't really able to push extra reps or more weight. When I get off the train, I'll go thru what I did and how many sets/reps. Damn this is frustrating.

Here is what I did tonite.

Pullups

Dips

Seated row

Military Press

Tricep

Bicep

Lat pull downs

Bench press

Chest Flies

50 reps on the ab machine

Just finished my salmon, rice, and broccoli/carrot dinner."

Chirs


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

ChicagoUSA said:


> Here is an excerpt of an email I sent to Hack last night. Paul what is your opinion.
> 
> "Just finished my workout. I don't get it. I lost 3.5 lbs but no strength gains. Somw of the weights I did last week seemed much harder to do tonite. I wasn't really able to push extra reps or more weight. When I get off the train, I'll go thru what I did and how many sets/reps. Damn this is frustrating.
> 
> ...


Looks like way too much bro.

OK, Paul.

I am going to ask you a trick question here and this one would be based on your personal experiance.

What percentage of your fat comes or do you feel should come from a Saturated source?

Monounsaturated fats?

Polyunsaturated fats?

Again I am not a fan of Udo's oil.

It has some polyunsaturated fats in it and actually people eat too many polyunsaturated fats (Omega 6's) compared to Omega 3's found in oily fish.

I actually consider butter myself as being a clean fat.

I dont consider vegetable oils as being a clean fat myself.

Just my opinion.


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## ChicagoUSA (Dec 8, 2006)

Don't get me wrong, I am as much a carbo addict as a butter addict. Add the two together and I am in pig heaven. Being a chef, we ALWAYS cooked with butter unless it was deep fried. There were the occasional uses of olive oil when needing only a delicate flavor and light cooking session. I have 7lbs of butter in my freezer just waiting to be used and it's best they stay there. I used to make my own bread, when I had time and there is nothing better than a fresh, homemade bread with BUTTER. If olive oil is a better choice, I have an amazing bottle of extra extra extra olive oil, which I would gladly use as a substitute for either peanut butter or butter. Paul, homemade peanut butter in the US, pardon my french, really sucks ass and tastes like ass. I don't know what they do to those peanuts when grinding them up but it comes out nasty. Probably because no sugars have been added to cover the peanut oil.

I didn't mean for this portion of the thread to turn into a nasty contest over who is right and how is wrong. We all have our own oppinions on what is best and lets leave it at that. What is best for Hack isn't always what is good for Pau or me or anyone else. We all have to find our own nitch. Trial and error. I hate to see two friends fighting over a small topic like butter or peanut butter. I get the purpose of each and why to use it.

Sorry for starting the debate and hope we can all end it and remain friends. I somehow feel it is my fault that this whole argument has started.

Chris


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## Nine Pack (Oct 30, 2006)

Chris,

We are'nt fighting bud, this is just our opinions, which everyone is entitled to. I like debating these issues, it's the best way to learn. To answer your (trick..?) question Scott, I try not to over complicate the issue by nailing it down to daily percentages, as things tend to even out over a week anyway if you eat a good range of clean foods. As you know, I use a 'K.I.S.S' approach (keep it simple stupid) with my nutrition & training.

If I had to place a figure on it though, I'd say 20% of total calories is a good guide for total fats. Of that percentage, approx one third should be saturated fatty acids, one third Super & polyunsaturated fatty acids (LNA, LA, GLA, DGLA & AA in the appropriate ratios) and one third monounsaturated fatty acids (OA & POA).

Chris's baseline diet was formulated slightly below the 20% in the knowledge that the 'cheat' meals will easily trip it over to the 20% figure over the course of a week anyway.

I think Udo's or similar blends are a good addition when used in conjunction with other foods containing Omega 3's. You are right about the proportion of omega 6 being too high for most people though, but when following a diet like mine, or the ones I advise, it's not nearly as big an issue as it is for the Joe Schmoes of the world.

If I made my own butter, I would consider it a clean fat too, but I just can't bring myself to trust the manufacturers. It's my own personal issue but I think I can live with it.

Chris,

Looks like you did too much in the gym, I agree with Scott. I'd split your bodyparts up over three workouts eg: chest & arms, legs & low back, back & shoulders. Do 2 exercises per muscle group. This way, you'll hit each part once over the week. At the moment, without having seen the rest of the weeks sessions,, it seems you may be hitting each part twice.


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## ChicagoUSA (Dec 8, 2006)

Last night's session:

leg presses

squat

hamstring

quads.

The calves get workouts in the leg presses and squats. I raise up on the toes and hold for a 3 count during each rep. I can't seem to find a failure point on the squat or leg press. I started at 160lbs on squat to warm up; jumped to 200lbs for a second warmup and jumped to 240lbs and was still able to do a full set. Leg presses started at 180; 220; 260 and I still felt like I could have pushed on more set in on each. Hamstrings were easy to fail. Technically, I am not supposed to do quad (leg raises) due to reconstructed knees, so I did not push them to hard. My knees pop and grind when I do quads.

Tonite is a general session with PT to teach me propper form and how to use the weights in the "Big Boy" equipment room and start moving away from cable weights. So I won't push it to hard tonite but it will be a full body routine to learn everything. I know this is over training, but I won't be able to get to a gym for at least the next 5 days so, I'll have plenty of recovery time. And even then, I'll be lucky to get 2-3 workouts the rest of the year.

Going to the in-laws for xmas and they live in Pinehurst, NC. The weather is supposed to be in the mid to upper 50's so we will probably play 36 holes of golf a day, which will also make keeping the diet intact harder as well.

Paul & Hack any plans for the holidays? I'll be sure to checkin every day or so to keep you apprised of diet and workout.

Have a great holiday if I don't speak to you until after the holiday!

Chris


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

I would work the calves on their own or not combined with the quads.

If you are doing quads then do them, if you are doing calves then do them, I would do both, this will take away from something else.

36 holes of golf is making me tired just reading that


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## Nine Pack (Oct 30, 2006)

Golf????!!!! Good way to ruin a nice walk!

Chris,

Here's where you take control. Don't just accept that the diet is going to fall apart just because you are playing golf, or whatever. Prepare, take some Pro Mr's with you & if you have to, use them in place of solid meals.

I have 2 main rules that I live by when it comes to my bodybuilding:

1) Allow plenty of time for recuperation & sleep.

2) Never, EVER, EVER miss a meal.

These rules are non negotiable. Period. I can miss a workout, no problem, it means more rest & recovery. Missing a meal is something your body will not make allowances for. Remember, it does not want to carry any more muscle than it is comfortable with, and if we want to allow it to keep that tissue, we have got to feed it or the body will see it as an unneccessary waste of resources & cannibalise it.

Did'nt know you had bionic knees bud. I'd tread carefully there, stick to movements where you don't flex the leg past 90 degrees. Hack's right on the calves, hit them seperately from quads. Four sets in total will do, one to failure with 3 warmups. Alternate one week seated (legs bent) and one week standing (legs straight). This will ensure proper stimulation of both the gastroc & soleus muscles, along with all the other minor plantarflexors.


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## ChicagoUSA (Dec 8, 2006)

Wait, I'm a little confused. I worked the calves on squats and leg presses. On the top of a squat, I would pullup on to my toes and hold the squat for a three count. On the leg presses, I would push out the weight with my heals then push out onto the toes. I don't work the calves with quad raises, you know the machine where you bend at a 90degree angle and raise your feet to a straight leg position. Those I have to be careful with because of the knees. It is supposedly the worst exercise for any body part because of the pressure it puts on you ACL, MCL and PCL. So those I don't work to a point of failure. I do those more for a toning sort of exercise and use squats and leg presses for strength and mass.

Paul I don't know what the two exercises are that you mention at the bottom of the thread.

As far as diet goes, it will be up for breakfast (eggs and a piece of toast and a banana), shake on the course, break for lunch (they have an awesome healthy buffet), shake in the afternoon with banana or apple, dinner and maybe a small shake before bed. Will that work?

Walking 36 holes is about a 10 mile hike so that is my cardio for the day. Up and down hills, back and forth across the fairway. Believe me I get plenty of exercise looking for my ball.

What other tips or tricks should I use while out on the course, other than drink plenty of water.

Thanks guys.

Chris


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## Nine Pack (Oct 30, 2006)

The diet should be ok, so long as you continue to get six meals in, and that each one has sufficient protein & carbs as I advised initially.

The 2 exercises I described were simply calf raises. They can be done seated or standing which hits seperate parts of the calf. The point we were tying to make is that you have integrated two movements into one exercise, ie squats & calf raises. It's acceptable to do this if you were looking for a general all over 'toning' program, but for your purposes of muscle growth, we need to take a muscle to failure and that requires total focus on the muscle being worked. If you integrate two movements, they are both compromised as we are left spending more time concentrating on balancing than going to failure.

Like Hack says, if you want to train legs, hit the quads, then the hams, then the calves, but don't string two of them together.

Other than that, yes, keep water intake high & maybe even eat a few more calories to make up for the increased activity.


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## ChicagoUSA (Dec 8, 2006)

PERFECT!!

Now, if I could just get a golf lesson to match what you two are doing for me, I'd be right there with Tiger. :jerk:

Chris


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## ChicagoUSA (Dec 8, 2006)

I hope all had a good New Year and we have a good 2007. Xmas vacation kind of ruined the diet but back on the wagon and moving forward.

How was your's Paul?

Chris


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## Nine Pack (Oct 30, 2006)

Quiet one for me. I'm no party animal to be honest so we had a family xmas then me & my wife stayed in at new years. I don't drink either so there's no way I'm being the designated driver every time if I go out!

I lost 5 pounds over xmas but only fluid as meals got a bit mixed up but it's not a problem.

Back to the regime for you my friend!


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## ChicagoUSA (Dec 8, 2006)

Don't you know it! I tried to get as many healthy meals in as possible but between cooking xmas dinner, golf, the death of my sister-in-law's husband on xmas eve, baby sitting neices and nephews, it got a little difficult to get 5 meals a day in. I always got a good breakfast and a midmorning shake and a turkey sandwich for lunch and mostly a decent dinner. I did over do it a little on the portions. It's tough when you are not at home and have no control over the kitchen or timing of everything to stick to it.

But now its back to the regimine. I have to stock up on a couple of items because I am running low. I still need to get the post workout shake. The Pro Peptide is running low but should make it to the weekend.

I can tell I am back on the wagon because I am just sitting at my desk sweating like a pig from the metabolism racing with all the food in me.

A workout tonite is in jeopardy due to work so I am hoping that my colleague gets his ass in gear and gets something done so I can at least get some workout tonite.

I don't go out on New Year's eve either. Amateur night all drunk and stupid. I did have 1 too many martini's to celebrate though.

This weekend is all screwed up as well. I have to go to the funeral in New Jersey so I know that means we will end up at a nice steakhouse stuffing our faces with steak and potatoes. Carnage galore.

Good to hear you had a good simple evening and I am hitting the ground running.

Chris.


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## Nine Pack (Oct 30, 2006)

Steakhouses need not be a problem. Have a plain steak, trim off the excess fat and have it with a nice baked potato but hold the sour cream & all the other crap they lace them with, order it dry & put a tiny scrape of butter on if it's too hard to eat 'neat'.

When I diet for a show, I can still go out & have a steak & baked potato. I am a sad bas*ard though & take some little electronic jewellers scales & weigh it all before I eat. No need to go that far though, my wife despairs of me! :crazy:


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## ChicagoUSA (Dec 8, 2006)

The place we are going to in New York is/was a notorious mob hang out. Cash only and the prices are not cheap. If I brought a scale in to weigh my steak, I would probably get killed. I don't blame your wife. If you are going out for steak, the go out for STEAK. It can't hurt to glutten on steak every once in awhile. Just think of all the protein you are getting.

Hey other question different topic.

I am running out of all supps that I have been taking and don't want to replenish without knowing what to refill. I am also running out of the Pro Peptide so I want to go to one place and get everything in one shot. What supps other than multivitamin and fish oil should I invest in? And do you have a recommendation for where to go to make it a one stop shopping experience.

Thanks for the help Paul.

Chris


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## Nine Pack (Oct 30, 2006)

as I always say, keep it simple. All you really need is the Pro Peptide, the Pro MR meal replacer, post workout formula, multi vit & EFA supplement. If you must, try a good creatine like Pro Creatine E2, or any with the ethyl ester as opposed to old style creatine monohydrate.

As regards where to get it all, my only suggestion is to contact Dave Honeybone at CNP & he'll be able to advise. He's in charge of international sales. www.cnpprofessional.co.uk is the site & e mail addresses should be on there too.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Damn, holding the sour cream would be a crying shame, so would trimming off the fat on the steak


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## ChicagoUSA (Dec 8, 2006)

Slathering on the butter and sour cream is SOOOOOOOO GOOOOOD!! I don't know how Paul does it. The fat on the steak I can do without. I especially love sour cream on a baked potatoe. Nothing like a good steak and sour cream orgy at an expensive steakhouse.

But we eat sooo late 9:30 and then its home to bed which makes me feel sick all night and bloated the next day. Guess that's my one splurge meal for the week.

I am finding it hard to eat 6 meals. I am only managing to get 4 down every 2-3 hours. I feel so full but am starving in the morning and before bed. But I can't eat and go to bed, I'll be up all nite. I also sweat like a pig all night long so I know the metabolism is churning at a high rate. I hope by next week I can get back to 6 meals a day.

Oh well, off to the gym in 45 minutes.

Talk to ya later.

Chris


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Man, I can tell you are from Back East with the Potatoe.

In California where WE are politically correct it is spelled Potato&#8230;&#8230;heeee heeeee PMSL

Chris are you still doing the basic compound lifts?

Have you been bulking those huge guns up?;D


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## ChicagoUSA (Dec 8, 2006)

In the midwest, we like them there taters with our meat.

Yep, sent you an email this morning with last night's workout. Even though I did chest and tri's, my whole upper body feels like it got a good workout in as well. Not stiff or achy. Just can tell I worked out.

The sleep thing has returned though. I was up most of the night going over what and how I am going to get all my work done today without ****ing anyone off and finally fell asleep at 5 am. Paul, any thoughts on a remedy or help with this.

Chris


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## Nine Pack (Oct 30, 2006)

Sleep patterns can be affected by so many factors but it seems like you're over committed at work & it's preying on your subconscious. Before I go to bed, I make sure that the last hour is spent doing somewhere south of nothing. This allows me to wind down physically & mentally. If I'm on the go right till bedtime I have no chance & will suffer terminal insomnia.

I gave up worrying about work when at home a while ago as you can't really do anything to solve the problem till you get to work the next day anyway. Only worry about things you can sort out there & then & you will go to bed having acomplished something, & get some closure on the day. It's very important to end each day on a positive note, however small & insignificant it may be. 

I'm getting a bit deep now, it's the PCT!


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## Bulldog77 (Jun 23, 2008)

Paul you are my hero

I have been flaking out at about half ten these last few days.

Paid a visit to CNP today and stocked up ready to rumble 

Just finished my Back and Hams and feel great, looking forward to my Nandos marinated chicken and veg 

thanks for the support Paul


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## Nine Pack (Oct 30, 2006)

Glad you're enjoying it Bulldog. In case anyone's wondering, Bulldog is one of my newest victims, erm, clients. (did I say that out loud or just think it?!). He's about to make the biggest change in his life short of marriage & having children.

When his new baby arrives, he'll be a 'buff daddy'.

That looks cheesier when it's written down but the sentiment is real. I've told Kerry how you're going to look by the time of the warrington show so no pressure!


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Get some before and after pics.


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## ChicagoUSA (Dec 8, 2006)

Yeah, I want to see what he goes from and where he ends up. Since I am following you and Hack's instructions, I am curious to see how we both progress.

PICTURES PICTURES

Chris


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## Nine Pack (Oct 30, 2006)

There you go Bulldog, the whole world is watching now. Make me proud.

Bulldog is carrying far more muscle than he is aware of and if he sticks at it he'll finally see the results of his hard work. He's showing no signs of quitting, the exact opposite in fact.

The small number of clients I currently have on board are all making fantastic progress & it's great to see. One of them is even more meticulous with his diet than I am. That's you by the way Mark, but you already knew that!


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Wow, that is very cool.


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## welly (May 12, 2006)

Thank you for that compliment Paul, fame at last  , not sure its true though but thanks anyway. Really I'm just analy retentive hence the spreadsheets. Anyway I have the next 14 weeks to see how I cope with the pre contest diet you have given me, its been 6 months since you started training me and somehow I think the hard work is really about to start

Mark


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## Nine Pack (Oct 30, 2006)

The diet I have you doing is a full on pre contest prep regime so you will see

1st hand what me & James were going on about. I thought it appropriate for you as you are already eating & training as a bodybuilder. The way you approach your diet is far more meticulous than many bodybuilders & you have the focus & determination to go as far as you want to.

Hope the chest & bi's are suitably trashed after yesterday.


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## welly (May 12, 2006)

Thanks Paul, now Im blushing lol. Oh and yes the chest in particularily the upper chest is very sore.

Chris and Bulldog, just to say you are in good hands with Paul he knows his stuff.


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## Nine Pack (Oct 30, 2006)

It's true. There really is no beginning to my talents.


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## ChicagoUSA (Dec 8, 2006)

Great to hear about all of your sucesses!

Speaking of diet, now that all the funerals are over, I am back on board for full diet routine. But I have a question. Paul or Hack gave me a diet. I think Hack wanted 3 egss and oatmeal but since we dropped the oatmeal, I am doing the three eggs with the purest whole grain bread I can find (short of making it myself). But, Paul you also wanted me to add a Pro Peptide shake with breakfast or is too much for breakfast (3eggs, 1 piece bread and a shake). I want to make sure that I am not taking in too much for breakfast and throwing the balance off.

Otherwise, things seem to be going well and work has hit the wall so I can spend the next three weeks dieting and getting a regular workout routine going to see what gains I can make.

Paul or Hack your advice please.

Chris.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

I think Paul could answer better than me as I have no idea what is in the Pro Peptide.

I myself prefere to eat whole foods over bars, drinks, MRE's but both will work fine but just not my prefrence.


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## Bulldog77 (Jun 23, 2008)

I will get my wife to take some pictures at some point LOL i am shy .

Paul really knows his stuff and is well respected by Kerry(whom i also know)

I am suffering from a little set back atm , an old niggling back problem has reared its ugly head and has stopped me training at all today so i feel a little deflated.

I'm at Physio at 2000hrs so will hopefully be back in the gym for my cardio in the morning.

Paul is great and gets battered by a near constant barrage of strange text messages from me!!!

Theres nothing like a bit of added pressure EH LOL Kerry Kayes and the whole of the people that read this LOL Cheers pal!!!!, added incentive to carry it through though


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## ChicagoUSA (Dec 8, 2006)

Hey Bulldog. I love your avatar. I have a French Bulldog and really want an English Bulldog. Sorry to hear about your set back but a day off might be just what the doctor ordered. I wish you the best and can't wait to see pix of before and after. I'd post mine but no one should have to look at them. I am not that cruel of a person to make you look at my scrawny, pathetic physique.  But since you are working with Paul, I'd like to see how his kicking you in the rear everyday changes you. Me, I'm doing it on my own with Paul and Hack's help via email and this thread. I don't have an overlord standing over me with a whip to make me do more.

Best of luck to you!

Chris


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## Nine Pack (Oct 30, 2006)

Chris,

If you have eggs, no need for the Pro Pep at breakfast, just have one or the other. Three whole eggs will net about 28-30g protein so this is about right for you. There is a difference in the fats when having eggs (though it is a good fat) so just allow for this on another meal & use less oil.

Hack's right about solid food vs supplements. We have a digestive tract designed to break down & absorb solids but six meals a day can be nigh on impossible for most. You can become very unpopular with colleagues if you start opening tupperwares with cold chicken, rice & broccoli at your desk, I know as I've done it many times in the past. We use protein supplements to make sure we don't fall short of what we need. Of the six meals a day I have, three contain protein drinks (two of which are breakfast & supper which is porridge & a pro pep).


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## ChicagoUSA (Dec 8, 2006)

Thanks Paul. The only protein shake that I am using now is the Pro Peptide. Everything else is real food. I have not gotten the post workout shake yet but if I use that, then the Pro Peptide shake would take the day off and use it only on off days and try to stick with as much whole foods as possible. I don't use much or very very little oil when cooking.

Thanks for the info.

Chris


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## Nine Pack (Oct 30, 2006)

I'll have a word with Dave at CNP to see if he knows of another supplier in Chicago for Pro recover.

If poss, try not to cook using oil at all. Oils should be used cold as they become structurally altered by heating & become very harmful. I know it's difficult as you were trained as a chef to use oil liberally, but it's not the best approach from a health/nutrition point of view.

I know this will send a shudder down your spine, being a chef, but cook your meat on a george foreman grill or something similar. If need be, a little oil can be added to the cooked meat afterwards.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

I pour the fat that came off the steak back on the stake from the drip cup.

Paul, some oils are better than others for cooking without turning them into Trans Fats.

Olive oils is pretty hearty at high temperature, and if my memory serves me correctly (old age), Grape Seed oil stands very high temps, I think peanut oil does too.

But most vegetable oils heated turn to trans fats and this should be avoided big time.

I do cook my eggs in butter.

And Honestly Lard has a good profile for fat, believe it or not.


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## Nine Pack (Oct 30, 2006)

yeah, I know some oils are more stable than others at high temps, but IMO nothing is better than when it's used cold. I just like to eliminate as much chance of degredation as poss when it comes to fats, and also I don't like the taste of food cooked in oil.

That's just me though, I am a little odd.....


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## ChicagoUSA (Dec 8, 2006)

I cook most meats on a grill. I bake most of my chicken. I use a little olive oil to cook salmon and don't even use butter to cook my eggs.

Yes peanut oil has the highest smoke point which makes it perfect for frying because it won't burn. Grape Seed oil, I believe, is what Canola oil is. It also has high smoke point but not as high as peanut oil. Olive oil has a relatively low smoke point so it's easy to burn olive oil.

Paul, great to find a Chicago dealer for CNP but I haven't heard or found one yet.

Over did it last night at the gym. Very sore today. I couldn't find a failure point on squats or leg presses, so I ended up doing 4 sets of 10 at continually higher weights. Finally on the leg presses, the last 2 reps my knees began to shake, so I knew I was close but was already at my 4th set and didn't want to do a 5th just to get to failure. Squats. I could do a set of 10 at one weight but couldn't even lift the next step up, which is very bizzare. Although the last rep in the 4th set was hard finishing. 3-5 more reps would have probably brought on failure. The act of sitting down and standing up hurts a fair bit.

I plan on sitting in my chair as much as possible today.

Chris


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## Nine Pack (Oct 30, 2006)

ChicagoUSA said:


> I cook most meats on a grill. I bake most of my chicken. I use a little olive oil to cook salmon and don't even use butter to cook my eggs.


Glad to hear it. How about steaming the salmon? If any meat really does'nt need added oils, it's salmon. I find a little worcester sauce poured on just before steaming stops the 'fishy' smell but adds nothing, or takes nothing from the flavour of the meat.


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## ChicagoUSA (Dec 8, 2006)

Was never into poached or steamed salmon. I never heard of the worch. sauce idea before. might be worth a try. I only use it for salmon to get a nice brown outside texture and aesthetics.

If I am having guests over for dinner, I'll use oils to doll up the meal for them but for me, I don't need it or think its necessary.

Chris


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

My girlfriend uses orange juice maranade and the orange peal with seasonings, it does taste good like that.


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## ChicagoUSA (Dec 8, 2006)

Ok Paul, let me have it. Here is a workout I did on Monday and today I can barely walk. NO JOKE. Did I over do it.

Squats (4 sets of 10 reps. I couldn't find a failure weight by the 4th set. I started at 140 for warm up (set 1); up to 160 (Set 2); 220 (set 3); 260 (set 4). Knees were a little shakey on the last 2 reps of set 4)

Leg presses (nearly identical to squats)

Leg extensions (3 sets 10 reps found failure or cautious since I am not supposed to do those due to the knees)

Hamstring Curls (3 sets 10 reps found failure)

Calves (4 sets 10 reps found failure on set 4)

Ab machine (4 sets 15 reps, 15 reps, 10 reps, 10 reps with the weigth going up on each set)

Then there is this machine where you put your arms over your head and pull the bar in a half circle to exercise the abs and lower back. I did this because I needed something to do while waiting for the leg press machine.

It hurts to sit down. It hurts to stand up. It hurts to walk. It hurts to even touch my legs! But damn they look good though when I can stand to pose the muscle. You can actually see different muscles rather than one long lump of nothing.

So let me have it about how I over did it and this is my punishment.

Chris


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Well, you did over do it.

Stimulate not annihilate, that is the key, you did the annihilation rout.

But it is ok due to you just learning and your legs have not adapted.

It will get better over time.


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## Nine Pack (Oct 30, 2006)

It was a little much, but I think if you can get your mindset into doing brutal leg workous, it'll serve as a good foundation. Most guys either hate doing legs, or just plain neglect them so it's good that you are willing to graft!

Me & my training buddies leg workouts are the stuff of legend where I train. Here's how I'd have structured it:

Front Squats: 3 sets of 10-15 very light to moderate (up to 60% of failure weight) then1 set to failure 8-10 reps.

Leg Press: 2 sets moderate 15 reps, one set 6-8 failure

Quad Extensions: 1 set to failure using either a drop set, or some forced negatives.

Ham curls: 3 sets moderate 10-15, 1 set failure 8-10

Hyper extensions or stiff leg deadlift: 2 sets moderate 10-15, 1 till you bleed from the ears at 6-8! ( I have a particularly nasty way of doing ham curls but it needs to be demonstrated).

Standing (or seated straight leg) calf raise: 2 sets 10-15, 1 to blood curdling failure 6-8.

Seated bent leg calf raise: 1 set to failure 6-8 (one warm up set 1st if req but you should'nt need it).

Then hobble away & spend the rest of the next 2 days sticking pins into a voodoo doll of me. :crutch:


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## ChicagoUSA (Dec 8, 2006)

Paul it sounds like most of what I did. I am more than willing to do legs. I can't stand guys that do nothing but upper body and have legs like toothpicks. What are they thinking? I know what they are thinking. The girls like the upper body look as long as just below the waist line is as good as the upper body. They don't care what your legs look like. Those are just there for props. 

Only my left calf is still achy today. Everything else seems to be back to normal. A little tight but no pain.

So tonite is back and biceps. Hopefully I'll be able to type tomorrow or even stand up.

Since it was my first serious leg workout, I had no baseline starting point so I had to figure the numbers all out. Now that I have the numbers, I know where to start to not way over do it like this week. Legs are scheduled again for Monday. I like doing legs on Monday because the gym is packed with the new year's resolution crowd and they are all over the upper body equipment. Later in the week the gym is less crowded and you can get on the equipment you want easier.

Oh well. I'll let you know how sore I am tomorrow.

Chris


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Nine Pack said:


> It was a little much, but I think if you can get your mindset into doing brutal leg workous, it'll serve as a good foundation. Most guys either hate doing legs, or just plain neglect them so it's good that you are willing to graft!
> 
> Me & my training buddies leg workouts are the stuff of legend where I train. Here's how I'd have structured it:
> 
> ...


Thanks for the insight here.

By the time I get to extentions, I was having some difficulty due to pre-fetigue from previous exercises. This drop set or negatives I am going to incourperate in my routine.

Thanks Paul, you have no idea how helpfull you have been for me.

Thanks bro.


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## Nine Pack (Oct 30, 2006)

Chris,

Glad to hear you relish the thought of a good leg bashing. Keep it up bud.

No problem Hack, you've given me plenty of advice too, especially pct wise. I'll PM you with how I'm going on....................


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Nine Pack said:


> Chris,
> 
> Glad to hear you relish the thought of a good leg bashing. Keep it up bud.
> 
> No problem Hack, you've given me plenty of advice too, especially pct wise. I'll PM you with how I'm going on....................


I seem to be getting alot of PM's lately on the PCT issue.

Hell, I am even on a PCT.

I was happy this morning as I got some morning wood. That is always a good sign.

Thanks Paul, you are the man.


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## Nine Pack (Oct 30, 2006)

Indeed I am, though the size of the spuds would lead me to think otherwise! They'll be back with reinforcements soon no doubt.


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## ChicagoUSA (Dec 8, 2006)

Paul or Hack, what are quad extensions with forced negatives or drop set?

Sounds cool, I want to do it too.

Chris


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## ChicagoUSA (Dec 8, 2006)

Paul, one more nutrition question. You recommend Pro Peptide and Pro Recover (post workout), but what other MRP or other protein shake should I use when I can't get a meal in. I try to get as much real food in as possible but there are times like this morning when I got on a 2 hour conference call and only had enough time to mix a Pro Peptide shake for breakfast before being trapped on the phone.

Thanks.

Chris


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## Nine Pack (Oct 30, 2006)

Chris,

1) Seated quad extensions with a drop set or forced negatives is a technique that you may not need to employ just yet to be honest. My way of doing a drop set is to use a weight that will take the exercise to failure at say 4 or 5 reps (so bloody heavy), then remove about 30-40% of the resistance & go again immediately for another 3 or 4 reps to failure. This sees the set totalling about 8 reps.

I only do this very occasionally as it is often overused. Also, most people tend to end up doing far too many reps, they use a weight they'd fail with at ten reps, drop it some, then go again for another ten. Madness.

Forced negatives are brutal, and should only be done when you have a training partner who you trust implicitly. On extensions, it's not too dangerous, but still, take care. Pick a weight that will see you fail at say, six or seven reps, once failure is reached, have your training partner lift the weight to the top while you hold that contraction. Then your partner pushed down hard on the arm of the machine as you fight against it all the way down. You have to tell your partner when to stop pushing so best to agree on the signal before beginning the set. Do no more than two of these forced neg reps. Nasty.

As regards the MRP, you know my stance on which make to use, but I don't want to be pulled up for free advertising. Any that contain a whey/micellar caesin mix with about 20g carbs will be ok.


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## ChicagoUSA (Dec 8, 2006)

OK, I'll wait on those until I am ready. They sound effective and I'd probably over do like last time and be crippled again for a couple of days from the pain. 

Thanks for the description though. I won't test the waters.

Chris


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## Nine Pack (Oct 30, 2006)

Very wise. I only employ these techniques from time to time as it is quite a shock to the system. Plenty screaming & bleeding out the ears!


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