# Gyno signs after 1st week of Test E cycle ????



## cyclops_45 (Oct 5, 2005)

Is it possible or am I just imagining it?

FYI the nipple is itching/skin sore and the gland under it feels like a small

firm "disc" of tissue.

Ive only done two shots of Cidoteston (test enanthate x2 250mg)

in the past 6 days along with 500mg boldenone. I've got half a bottle

of L-dex in the bathroom cupboard but hadn't planned to start using

this until around week 2-3.

The cycle is going to be 10 weeks on test E and the EQ, then 3 weeks

of prop before PCT. I didnt really want to use the arimidex for the whole

duration. Will 0.5mg tonight and then 0.5mg eod be enough to get what

could be gyno signs under control ???

(PS anybody got any ideas what the shelf life of Liquid arimidex is?

The bottle I've got is left over from Xmas)


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## LondonGeezer (May 25, 2006)

firstly.. DAMN ur avatar.. its doin my eyes in im tryna focus on the image LOLLLL...

errm yeh sounds like gyno symptoms to me mate, anything is possible..

sori im not sure on the dosages for arimidex but if u have any nolva den 60mg first day followed by 40mg ED untill it clears up followed by 20mg 2-3days after its gone to be sure.. same with clomid only dosages will be (100mg first day, 50mg untill cleared up followed by 25-30mg 2-3days after its cleared to be sure).

i would assume the same sort of thing for arimidex but i dont know the dosages sori .

goodluck


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

never heard of this happening this fast as neither will be really in your system for 10-14 days....maybe you are imagining it i would leave it a little longer if it persist's then use then L-Dex


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## craigybabes (Feb 12, 2006)

Pscarb said:


> never heard of this happening this fast as neither will be really in your system for 10-14 days....maybe you are imagining it i would leave it a little longer if it persist's then use then L-Dex


i agree but the gear he could be using could be propionate disgised as test-e its a long shot but it can happen


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## LondonGeezer (May 25, 2006)

cyclops_45 said:


> Is it possible or am I just imagining it?
> 
> FYI the nipple is itching/skin sore and the gland under it feels like a small
> 
> ...


I'd say treat it as if it is Gyno symptoms, better to be safe then sorri...

When i first started Dbol i did think after 3days i had symptoms.. i left it for that day and it went away.. was just sensitive nipples but only for that 1 day..

itchy/sore skin,.. zap it with ur Arimidex.. but im not sure on dosage


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## Androjector (Jul 14, 2006)

It is possible. Some individuals are very sensitive to the effects of Oestrogen. Testosterone enanthate is very adrogenic and readily converts to oestrogen once in the system. As PScarb has already pointed out, the rapid onset of this symptoms seems unlikely with the test ester used, unless of course you've got a fake version containing Propionate etc.

Boldenone can also manifest symptoms of oestrogen related problems if taken in excess. So both these substances could be contributing to your issue if you're sensitive to Oestrogen.

Try including 20mg of Nolvadex during the cycle and if this problem still persists, maybe the use of something more specific like Arimidex or Proviron could be implimented.


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

yes but with D/bol this can happen because the half life of D/bol is a matter of hours where Test E is Weeks...


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## LondonGeezer (May 25, 2006)

alright mate done a quick search for u and found this thread had good info http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/aas-picture-board/11856-anti-estrogens-arimidex-clomid.html?highlight=arimidex+dosages

basically if u come across symptoms, zap it with 1mg arimidex on the first day then stick to 0.5mg untill it clears up followed by 0.25mg ED for 2-3days to be on safe side and continue cycle.. effectively you could use it at 0.25mg EOD or E3D to stay safe if you are gyno sensitive.

as Pscarb has mentioned tho it does take weeks and i personally think its imagination running wild which is wat it was with me aswell.. thinkin about it mine are feelin a bit weird now aswell but im off cycle  lol

gudluck :beer:


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## cyclops_45 (Oct 5, 2005)

Pscarb said:


> never heard of this happening this fast as neither will be really in your system for 10-14 days....


exactly what I was thinking!!!! thanks for input


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## mattster (Oct 3, 2005)

just to chip in, my first cycle was 500mg test enanth per week - i started to notice what i though was gyno symptoms (tingling in nipple/pec area, sore nips if brushed over or caught when dumbell pressing) around the mid point of week 2 - but due to the ester i thought i was imagining it - eventually started nolva 1.5 weeks later when it was just getting worse and worse - the lump behind my nipple did shrink a little but after pct remained the size of a 50p - seems im very senstive to oestrogen - ended up having it chopped out - so better to be safe than sorry.


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## BIG-UNC (Feb 27, 2006)

your body obviousely cant handle all the test its getting so its changing it to estrogen thus causing gyno, have you bloated up at all?

craigy might be right about the prop senario mate so it might be better to take the AI (arimidex) .5ml eod if it still persists up it to ed!

if it still not sorted then get intouch with the sun and ask for the page 3 dept!

only kidding mate good luck and keep us posted ok!!


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Estrogen management should always be a consideration in any cycle.

Adex will work nicely and I think adex is a great product. I prefere an aromatase inhibitor over a SERM any day during the cycle.

Use the SERM after for recovery, but use the AI during.

Half life of adex is around 3-4 days so taking EOD is cool.

Estrogen management is a good idea as estrogen is approx 200 times as supressive as testosterone.


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## Androjector (Jul 14, 2006)

I'm not aware of your history with steroids. However, there is a possibility you may be suffering the effects of Oestrogen rebound from a previous cycle.

The use of Nolvadex during androgen therapy will block Oestrogen binding to the relevant receptor but won't actually inhibit production. The mistake many individuals make is not continuing anti Oestrogen medication after terminating their cycles. This can often result in Oestrogen rebound, especially if HCG is being used to reinstate natural testosterone production.


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## Androjector (Jul 14, 2006)

Managing Oestrogen is important for specific circumstances such as competition, sensitive individuals or the habitual use of excessive androgens. It's important to rationally differentiate your situation from generalistic perspective. Oestrogen is an important catalyst in achieving optimum gains when sensible dosages of testosterone are being implemented into a training program. This is one of the contributory reasons certain synthetic testosterones are more powerful than Anabolic's in promoting size & strength.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Androjector said:


> Managing Oestrogen is important for specific circumstances such as competition, sensitive individuals or the habitual use of excessive androgens. It's important to rationally differentiate your situation from generalistic perspective. Oestrogen is an important catalyst in achieving optimum gains when sensible dosages of testosterone are being implemented into a training program. This is one of the contributory reasons certain synthetic testosterones are more powerful than Anabolic's in promoting size & strength.


Having estrogen too high or too low is not good. Some estrogen is needed for bone and other things and is necessary but high amounts of estrogen can aid in the shutdown of the HPTA, cause water retention (relating to high blood pressure), belly fat gain.

Sure some estrogen is ok but estrogen management in my opinion should be used in every cycle.

TRT patients are frequently put on a AI during their testosterone replacement therapy.

For the sake of shutdown all by itself would be cause for me to use an AI during the cycle.


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## Androjector (Jul 14, 2006)

I fully appreciate and respect your view on this issue. The use of Oestrogen inhibitors such as Arimidex may offer more potent suppression over an Oestrogen antagonist such as Nolvadex, but there are other issues which need to be considered when deciding the appropriate combative medication for your particular requirements.

Naturally this decision needs to be assessed based on genetic sensitivity to Oestrogen, dosage and circumstances. Sensible recreational usage of androgens should be effectively controlled by less biologically detrimental substances than Arimidex etc.

Oestrogen inhibitors have a negative effect on HDL levels which could be problematic to cardiovascular health. Nolvadex doesn't instigate this derogatory effect and is a more cautious choice for prudent recreational users concerned with overall health.


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## cyclops_45 (Oct 5, 2005)

yup, the right pap is definately getting larger....

took 0.5mg Liquid adex last night. (Anybody know the

the shelf life of the L-dex...... its been hanging around

since Xmas. More is in the pipeline, hadnt placed order already

as didnt think would need it yet... )

Just out of interest, is the research liquid version of the arimidex as

good as UG adex tabs (BD's for instance) ???

I can get the liquid version cheaper and much easier.

The test E was bought over the counter (cidoteston), so would

be surprised if its dodgy test prop fronting as enanthate ?

I could be wrong.

Also, the EQ is BD and my source has always come good.
​


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Androjector said:


> I fully appreciate and respect your view on this issue. The use of Oestrogen inhibitors such as Arimidex may offer more potent suppression over an Oestrogen antagonist such as Nolvadex, but there are other issues which need to be considered when deciding the appropriate combative medication for your particular requirements.
> 
> Naturally this decision needs to be assessed based on genetic sensitivity to Oestrogen, dosage and circumstances. Sensible recreational usage of androgens should be effectively controlled by less biologically detrimental substances than Arimidex etc.
> 
> Oestrogen inhibitors have a negative effect on HDL levels which could be problematic to cardiovascular health. Nolvadex doesn't instigate this derogatory effect and is a more cautious choice for prudent recreational users concerned with overall health.


This came from another post but is relevent here.

I could not post it all but this will give you an idea of why I dont like running nolva during a cycle.

I am not a big proponent of running tamoxifen during a cycle.

Here are a few reasons why:

Lowers IGF-1 production

Has the potental for damage to the retina and corneal opacities and decreased visual acuity.

Tamoxifen irritates the walls of the veins, and inflammation (a natural healing response to irritation) follows. The constant irritation and inflammation weakens the veins, causing bleeding, clotting, thrombophlebitis and, in the worst cases, obstruction of the blood vessels serving the lungs, which can be deadly and can occur with little warning. The incidence of thrombophlebitis in women using oral contraceptives is generally regarded as significant (1 in 2,000); however, with tamoxifen it's 30 times greater."

Depression has been reported as a potential side-effect of tamoxifen in 30 per cent of women. Cases have been reported of an inability to concentrate.

Tamoxifen can trigger asthma attacks in some sensitive patients.

Changes to the vocal cords resulting in impairment of singing and speaking abilities are occasionally caused by tamoxifen.

It wasn't long before laboratory studies showed that tamoxifen acted as a carcinogen. It has been found that tamoxifen binds tightly and irreversibly to DNA, the genetic blueprint of a cell, causing a cancerous mutation to take place.

Tamoxifen is toxic to the liver, and there have been reports of acute hepatitis in patients treated with tamoxifen. Liver damage has occurred in every animal given tamoxifen. According to Gary Williams, medical director of the American Heart Foundation, tamoxifen has been shown in animal studies to be a "rip-roaring" liver carcinogen, inducing highly aggressive cancers in about 12 per cent of rats. (7)

The latest human studies show a six-fold increase in liver cancer among women taking tamoxifen for more than two years." Liver failure and tamoxifen-induced hepatitis, although rare, have been reported. Even Zeneca admits that tamoxifen is a liver carcinogen - while nevertheless aggressively promoting its use.

Sorry for some of the copying and pasting, there are more reasons why I am not a big fan of tamoxifen.

But lets look at it this way, you are going to take anadrol which by the way is the only steriod associated with liver cancer, tamoxifen has been known to cause liver cancer.

You are going on orals for 8 week and take tamoxifen during the cycle.

What I see here is a potential for problems.

If you must do the cycle get some adex and take that during the cycle.

tamoxifen acts also as a agonist and antagonist twards estrogen, although it occupies the receptors it acts as an estrogen in the uterus.

The prostate and uterus have the same tissue and if tamoxifen acts as a estrogen on the uterus and is known to cause uterine cancer then there is a possiblity that there could be risk of prostate problems and even prostate cancer.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Here is a website that will give you all the information on nolva and all the associated side effects.

I bet after reading this you will have a little more respect for nolva.

http://www.aspartame.ca/page_c3.html


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## Androjector (Jul 14, 2006)

Thanks Scott for that interesting and in-depth response. From a personal perspective I'm disinclined to absorbed information from certain web sources relating to complex biochemistry or health. Having been actively involved around a very sensitive area of the health profession, I've become shockingly aware of the amount of disinformation openly available on the web. In some cases this misinformation has lead to fatal consequences.

Please don't misinterpret my words as an attempt to invalidate your excellent post; it's just my personal view of certain issues relating to web information.

With regard to Nolvadex, it's just one of literally thousands of prescription & OTC drugs which can, dependent on a host of variables, cause a myriad of abject health issues.

There's an ironic hypocrisy which accompanies this type of predicament. Naturally it's with in the interest of each sensible individual to actively seek the safest approach to chemically enhancing his/her physique. However, when considering the statistical probability of side effects stemming from auxiliary substances, are the probable effects of androgen therapy disregarded?

Liver damage

Cancer

Kidney damage

Blood pressure

Immune system stress

Prostate enlargement

These are just a few of the medically documented possibilities which could manifest from using steroids. They are no less dramatic or biologically detrimental than those statistical listings for Nolvadex.

ALL substances which manipulate hormonal chemistry put you at possible risk from potential health problems.


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## Androjector (Jul 14, 2006)

Scott, I just wanted to clarify that i'm not being disputatious in any way. I've got the greatest respect for your knowledge and perspective. It was a sincerely passive response in the interest of debate.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Androjector said:


> Scott, I just wanted to clarify that i'm not being disputatious in any way. I've got the greatest respect for your knowledge and perspective. It was a sincerely passive response in the interest of debate.


Thanks man, I appreciate that. I love a good debate.

From my experiance there are other sides that steroids give, for instance, I was in the hospital with very high blood pressure and was urinating blood.

I was kind of bloated. Had to drop that cycle.

This time I am running some estrogen management (aromasin), no bloat at all.

Another time I did just 50mg of winstrol a day. I had some blood work done after that and had a 15 HDL and my triglycerides were so high they could not even get an LDL count due to skewed test from the super high triglycerides.

Funny thing, my blood work scared the doc and scared me too.

For me I run an AI due to having massive shutdown issues with gear. I more than anyone I ever knew shutdown hard on gear.

So, now for me I take all the precautions I can to avoid the worst.

But, I do agree with you about estrogen having enhancing the gains of an androgen. I think it helps to clear the androgen receptors. Dan Duchane did some theories on progesterone and he actually thought this could aid in gains during a cycle.

But he passed away before actually finishing the work on progesterone.

The prostate comes from the same embryonic tissue as the uterus. Only two things are known to cause uterine cancer, estrogen and nolvadex.

Not to throw a scare into anyone or promote any myths, but I think to look at things in the proper light getting as much information as possible would be the best plan.

So, I believe there is some risk here to the prostate with nolva, I dont want to sound like a fatalist but the more I read about nolva I think its use should be minimised.

Also, AI's do have problems with bone loss and some are worse than others. I had a friend that used femara and had his blood done and he had terrible lipid profile.

On nolva's defense I hear it works well for aiding in benefits of the lipid profile.

Androjector I respect your posts as well mate. I am just playing devils advocate and I do that alot.

Best way for brainstorming and bringing as much information to the table as possible.

Keep posting mate, I enjoy reading your posts.


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## andye (Jan 30, 2006)

if your getting gyno no amount of nolve will rid it.

if you catch it quick enough you will be able to reverse it with LETRO. this is the only stuff that works for me. im very prone to gyno, and i get pain when im off cycle as well as on. letro is the only thing that has ever eased my gyno.

start on 0.25mgs going upto 2.5mgs ed till the pain and lumps have gone. then make sure you always run nolv with your cycle. if the pain starts again, just use the letro again.

i will not take steroids without letro. i swear by the stuff


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## Androjector (Jul 14, 2006)

Hey Scott, thanks for your understanding. I've found message boards can often become a catalyst for misinterpretation. It's sometimes difficult to validate a person's sincerity without vocal expression.

I personally feel assessing today's anabolic culture stems beyond the realms of mere 'use'. From over a decade of active involvement supplementing my training with synthetic hormones, I've reached the conclusion that societies modern mindset of 'instant gratification' is largely responsible for today's necessary recreational use of auxiliary medication. Once again, as with many things, there are a multitude of variables which contribute to this unfortunate situation.

Primitive understanding of the relation between steroids and genetics is possibly one of the most problematic areas which propagate the abuse of androgens. Embryonic awareness initiates the misconception that 'more must be better'. I've witnessed this path unfold many times where genetically inept individuals become habitual androgen abusers in an effort to overcome natures adversity.

I'm a great advocate of receptor mapping and believe more emphasis should be placed on the education of this principle. I don't dispute or question the role of auxiliary medication during cycles implemented by professionals pursuing a realistic physical goal however; I find it disturbing this practice is so eagerly pursued by individuals who have no genetic justification to be using copious amounts of Testosterone, Anadrol, Dianabol etc.

In my experience, steroids are more effective if used in conjunction with genetic familiarity. I've personally had excellent results splitting a 250mg ampule of Sustanon into two weekly dosages. I didn't use any anti-oestrogens, kept my insulin levels subdued to inhibit lipid retention, except during a workout where I ingested a simple glucose beverage to help block the catabolic effects of cortisol.

I found supplementing my diet with V-12 creatine & Tribulus for 4 weeks post cycle provided enough testicular stimulation and general support to avoid the use of HCG etc.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Androjector said:


> I'm a great advocate of receptor mapping and believe more emphasis should be placed on the education of this principle.


Can you explain this receptor mapping for me.

I found tribulis to be totally worthless for me. I have tried Tribex, tribestan, and various other off label brands and was completely not happy with the results.

V-12, that is the only creatine product I use and I rate this one highly.

You arnt suggesting V-12 has any positive effects in testicular stimulation are you?

As far as HCG, I get massive testicular atrophy and I notice it around week 3 on a cycle.

I myself would never start a cycle without HCG ever.

I had shutdown pretty bad and went to a Dr and he put me on TRT. Even the testosterone cream gave me testicular atrophy. I am just one of those unlucky ones.

I also take clomid and nolvadex for my PCT.

My cycles are rather mild; I use 500mg of test E a week for around 8-10 weeks.

I hate orals myself, so I don't use them.

I am in total agreement with you the more is better thoughts of today.

The body produces around 49mg of test a week, so taking 10 times more than the body produces is in my opinion a decent dose. But my first cycle of test worked the best which was 400mg.


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## Androjector (Jul 14, 2006)

Hey scott. I cut and pasted this description for you. It fully explains the technique of receptor mapping. Hope it helps.

This technique is used in an attempt to determine how a certain steroid affects an individual. This has been very helpful for athletes in determining how much of a steroid is enough. Each person reacts differently to dosages of different steroids. Mapping is done in an effort to individualise dosages so that one maximises gains while minimising side effects. Mapping starts with recording a number of aspects of a cycle. First, all the steroids taken must be carefully documented everyday. Graphs of weight and strength gains should be made up and filled in once a week. A diary should be kept which reports any side effects like acne, water retention, gynecomastia, etc. Other variables should be monitored like energy levels, sex drive, and appetite. During the cycle, the dosages should be steadily increased. If side effects are occurring at the same time strength and weight gains are being experienced, the dosage should be slowly lowered to see if gains outweigh the adverse reactions. All the variable readings can give clues as to whether the drugs are working. If they are, energy levels, appetite, and sex drive should all be high. Following the graphs can be the best way to use receptor mapping. For example, if an athlete was taking 200 mg of Deca a week and experiencing good strength and weight gains, while noticing no side effects this dose would be suspected to be optimal. Experimenting with going up to 400 mg per week may bring on some side effects but not more gains. In this case, the lower dosage comes out on top. Mapping just one drug at a time comes out to be more accurate than trying to map a stack of drugs.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Thanks Andro, I love information, if you have anything please post, I read all

I agree totally with optimal doses, sides suck. I am 46 soon to be 47 and I have to say, the sides are more pronounced when you get older. At least this is what I have noticed anyway.

Shutdown is harder, recovery harder, but the increased sex drive is more noticeable, strength is more noticeable, aggression more noticeable, mental awareness too is more noticeable, along with mood, feeling of well being, etc.

I agree that just enough is enough. Sometimes ego sets in and more seems to be better but I totally agree with your philosophy on this matter, big time. I would like to thank you for posting. I respect your side of things.

Question?

Do you notice better gains not blocking estrogen?

Do you notice any effects of estrogen and shutdown?

I know water retention is good for leveraging when lifting and joints but do you have problems during a cycle with water retention?

Do you like lower carbohydrate dieting on cycle?

If yes then please answer to the reason why.

Sorry in advance to the direct questions it is just for my information only.

Just a couple of things briefly. Cortisol is usually a factor in longer workouts lasting more than an hour.

Short intense workouts yield better GH and testosterone release.

Thanks for taking the time Andro&#8230;.I appreciate it&#8230;.


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## Androjector (Jul 14, 2006)

Hey Scott, hope you're keeping well. Firstly, I personally find omitting Oestrogen inhibitors/blockers more beneficial from a performance/gain perspective. However, this approach depends on a number of variables. If the use of receptor mapping is implemented correctly & you are rational with regard to your choice of drugs & limitations, I believe substantial low risk gains can be achieved without the use of auxiliary medication.

I've experienced comparable gains to testosterone base courses using 200mg of Deca-Durabolin in conjunction with 150mg of Trenbol weekly. The high Androgen/low Oestrogen content of this stack exonerates the inclusion of Anti-Oestrogen medication & also accelerates the fat burning process. It does however suppress endogenous androgen production so the use of testosterone stimulating compounds would be advisable after discontinuing this cycle.

Oestrogen and shut down? Maybe you could possibly clarify this question? If you're referring to the endogenous testosterone deficit following a cycle, then depression, increased emotional sensitivity and lipid retention are some of the negative effects I've experienced after using excessive levels of synthetic androgen.

With regard to water retention, again this is dependent on drug selection, dose and genetic sensitivity. Naturally I've experienced this symptom during certain cycles but nowadays prefer to incorporate Trenbolons with anabolics such as Deca-Durabolin or Equipoise in achieving my goals. Trenbolons provide substantial strength increases without water retention & Deca-Durabolin seems to lubricate joints.

Low carbohydrate dieting during courses, well; this is something I'm cautious about despite the inclusion of Anabolic/Androgenic steroids. Despite glycemic index, ALL carbohydrates eventually convert to simple glucose and stimulate Insulin. As you undoubtedly know, insulin is a primary catalyst for lipid retention so nutrient timing is essential for successful results, despite the use of drugs.

Cortisol secretion can manifest itself under any physically strenuous conditions. A 30 minute Chest routine incorporating a 1 rep max lift will stimulate cortisol, so workout duration isn't particularly an issue when evaluating its role in your training. Intense bodybuilding workouts will stimulate a certain amount of this catabolic hormone regardless. Insulin has combative properties against cortisol, so a simple glucose beverage ingested during workouts acts to spike Insulin levels and help reduce catabolic effect. Incidentally, Testosterone has also been found to inhibit the role of Cortisol. Unfortunately there is a rebound effect when Androgenic steroids are stopped & cortisol floods the system. This is believed to be one of the main reasons such a catabolic effect is witnessed after cycles.

Long workouts will also stimulate cortisol, that's true. But excessive training times also have a derogatory effect on endogenous testosterone levels.

This information is only technically brief, but I hope it answers some of your questions, Scott.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Estrogen converted by aromatase can actually unlock or displace testosterone at its various cellular receptor cites. Consequently, too much estrogen will switch off activities.

This is one reason I feel estrogen management is important. Not to drive down estrogen but keep it within levels that are meant to be kept at.

In middle-aged men, the ratio of testosterone to estrogen is significantly altered. In a young man, a ratio that might have been 50 to 1 is now 20 to 1, or even 7 or 8 to 1.

It's appropriate at this point to mention some of the harmful effects of estrogen.

First, there is the well known fact that estrogen causes increases in clotting factors as well as narrowing the coronary arteries in men. Recent research has confirmed that high estrogen levels are associated with increased risk of heart attacks in males. The exact opposite of its effects in females.

Not only does too much estrogen have a neutering effect on men, but so does too little testosterone. High estrogen levels can cause a shutdown in testosterone production. The mechanism of action is that the female hormone occupies some of the hypothalamic receptors for testosterone in the brain. The hypothalamus interprets this as if it were testosterone filling those receptors. The hypothalamus is tricked into acting as if testosterone levels in the body are high, and so it fails to send out the hormones that would tell the pituitary gland to stimulate testosterone production in the gonads.

This is a form of secondary hypogonadism, dependant not upon a disease or pharmaceutical side effects or mere again but purely upon an inappropriately high level of estrogen.

At the end of a cycle, your estrogen will be high and when the exogenous testosterone is stopped you will end up with a shutdown HPTA, low testosterone levels and high estrogen levels.

To make matters worse the high estrogen will still be a cause of shutdown and the ratio of testosterone to estrogen will be way out of whack.

At this point I am very adamant that the use of HCG should have been used during the cycle to maintain testicular function and the use of SERMS should be used.

The HCG will bring about testicular size and function. This is the sticky spot of any recovery as the hypothalamus and pituitary glands recovery much quicker than testicular function.

If this wasn't bad enough, once the estrogen gets within a range that will leave the hypothalamus and pituitary glands to fire up (after weeks), the testicles are left out of action. It can take between 6-18 months for full recovery of the HPTA.

With the proper protocol (I got from a Doc) it takes approx 45 days for full recovery.

If you ever heard of a doctor on the boards with the name of Swale, he recommends taking an AI during the cycle and the use of HCG during the cycle as well.

I have some of his articles if you would like to see them.

Ok, lets switch gears on the Cortisol. From everything I have ever read insulin combats Cortisol but curbs HGH.

With enough intensity and within a limited time frame testosterone and HGH are high for only about 45 minutes.

Intensity drives up HGH and testosterone especially with certain compound lifts like dead lifts and squats using enough intensity.

Cortisol after a cycle is high and this is due to the body trying to develop countermeasures to combat anabolism, this is another reason estrogen is high as well.

Long distance runners are known to have low testosterone levels wheras weight lifters even older guys like myself have been shown to have elevated testosterone levels.

I am at work and have to go home but we can finish this discussion later, I am reading a book right now that totally steers into this conversation nicely.


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