# Need help, bulk more or start cut? Opinions on photos please



## banford1 (Mar 27, 2012)

Hi guys. I'm new to the forums and to bodybuilding.

I'm 19 years old and 5'8.

I currently weigh 81kg, 65kg lean mass. My BF% was said to be 18%.

A bit about me:

I'm a level 2 Fitness Coach, have been using the gym since 14 years old.

I am a Semi Pro MMA fighter and full contact kickboxer.

Unfortunately due to injury I was out ii f training from 5/11 - 3/12.

I've been training on and off since then but just in the gym; no martial arts.

Since the end of July I've been focusing on muscle building and have noticed an increase but have gained a lot of weight (especially on chest area and abdominals)

Since last Friday I've been trying to cut up but I'm a little unsure on whether to keep building mass or just focus on cutting. To be honest I'm going away 22nd October and wouldnt mind losing some fat.

My diet:

9am - Jack3d (3 scoops) followed by a banana and 2 eggs.

12:30pm - Post workout protein shake (36g of protein and 13g carbs)

1:00pm - Lean turkey breast and vegetables (1 cup)

3:00pm - Fresh Haddock with vegetables.

5:00pm - 3 eggs but just 1 yolk.

Lots of water drunk throughout, instead of fish on Thursdays and Sundays its Sirloin steak for a bit of creatine. Jack3d is consumed only Monday, Tuesday, Thursday and Friday; others days its either black coffee or oats. No more than 1500cals a day.

200grams of protein, 50grams of carbs, 20grams fat. No sugar.

My workout routine:

Mon and Friday:

Bicep curl (barbell) 3x12

Hammer curl 3x8

Preacher curl 3x8/10

Cable curl (low) 3x15

Concentrated barbell curl 3x8

Cable curl (high) 5x15

Bent over row (barbell and dumbbell) 3x8

Back extension 3x15

Lat pull down 3x10

Good mornings 3x8

Deadlift 3x6/8

Mid row 3x8

Low row 3x10

Pull ups 3xfailure

Tuesday and Thursday:

Pec deck 3x12

Chest press seated 3x8

Bench press 3x6/8

Dumbell press 3x12

Dumbell flyes 3x10

Cable crossover 3x12

Cable crossover (single arm) 3x6/8

Pushups (close, shoulder, wide, atlas) 3x12

French curl 3x10

Tricep extension 3x8

Dips 3xfailure

Rope pulldown 3x10

Cable pulldown 3x10

Tricep dips 3x25

Overhead rope tricep extension 3x8

Kettlebell clean and press 3x12

Wednesday and Saturday:

Leg press 3x8/12

Leg extension 3x12

Hamstring curl 3x10

Squats 3x8

Weighted box jumps 3x12

Adductor 3x8

Abductor 3x8

Dumbbell lunges 3x8

Lateral raise (barbell) 3x10

Side raise 3x8

Front raise (dumbbells and cable) 3x12

Shoulder press 3x8

Shoulder press (dumbbell) 3x8/10

Lat pulldown (behind neck) 3x12

Cable crossovers (low) 3x8

Cable crossovers (overhead) 3x12

Crunches 3x25

Pike sit ups 3x25

Medicine ball twists 3x25

Obliques 3x12

Plank 1min

Side plank 1min each side

Ab curl machine 3x12

Leg raises 3x12

Sundays are a cardio day of:

1hour cross trainer

20minutes treadmill

15minutes rower

30mins bike

Nearly all sets are supersets.

Here is a pic of me last year:










This is now:





































As you can see I have muscle mass but I'm not sure if enough to consider a cut. All opinions and criticism will be appreciated.

Cheers


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## reza85 (Jan 11, 2009)

I will aim for a recomp mate.

It will be fairly hard if you are natty.


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## banford1 (Mar 27, 2012)

reza85 said:


> I will aim for a recomp mate.
> 
> It will be fairly hard if you are natty.


Sorry but I don't know what your saying lol, not your fault mine lol bit thick


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## reza85 (Jan 11, 2009)

Ok Recomp means trying to drop body fat or atleast keeping it were is at and increasing lean body mass.

Natty means drug free, is harder due to nutrition portioning and the effect anabolics have on the way your body builds lean mass through protein synthases


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## GreedyBen (Mar 8, 2011)

What sort of weights are you lifting as seems to be a lot of exercises?

Are you not losing weight on that diet? I would do all my c.v afterweights 20-30mins instead of all on one day.

How much water aswell in litres?


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## shaunmac (Aug 13, 2010)

In my opinion that routine looks horrible.

Surely that must take you about 3 hours? I know you said you do a lot of supersets but you just look to have put a lot of fat on.

Hope i dont sound like im being a total kn0b


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## banford1 (Mar 27, 2012)

No I totally agree, I'm lifting heavy then burn out on a light weight.

My CV work is always done after my glycogen has depleted in MSE.

I was thinking to run a 2 Week Cycle of DNP of 2x250mg tabs a day.


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## Dave 0511 (Feb 13, 2009)

your BF is quite high I think, for someone who is a semi pro fighter

mines high too so im not nit picking lol

i think your training programme is shocking to be honest, especially for a fighter who should be looking at functional fitness and strength

too many exercises, way too much going on

surely you should base it around:

squat (or front squat)

military or push press

deadlift and/or cleans

flat bench

this is pretty noddy stuff for a fitness professional???


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## banford1 (Mar 27, 2012)

And no, I've not lost any weight in about 2 months, if anything I've gained and its really frustrating. I've gained muscle but I need to lose the fat to see where I'm at! Plus I wanna be able to take off my top without having love handles and puffy nips by 20th October!


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## mark67 (Apr 14, 2010)

Would have to agree with greedyben that's a lot work on bodyparts to needs to be more simple my chest work out consists of flat bench incline bench pec deck then flys seems you are doing alot for every body part


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## banford1 (Mar 27, 2012)

Dave 0511 said:


> your BF is quite high I think, for someone who is a semi pro fighter
> 
> mines high too so im not nit picking lol
> 
> ...


No I havent fought in a year and don't plan on anytime soon tbh, just wanna get lean.

Yeah I agree but I've been trying to keep it quite HIIT so I'm burning fat.



mark67 said:


> Would have to agree with greedyben that's a lot work on bodyparts to needs to be more simple my chest work out consists of flat bench incline bench pec deck then flys seems you are doing alot for every body part


Yeah I agree, just thought more would be better at high intensity for fat loss.


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## mark67 (Apr 14, 2010)

Cv and diet is better for fat loss


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## banford1 (Mar 27, 2012)

Right so should I just focus on less excercises that are hitting main areas with heavy weights?

And also would it be a good idea to run a 2 week DNP cycle or is it too early?


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## Ash1981 (Jun 16, 2009)

7 days at the gym...

You aint going nowhere son


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## Ash1981 (Jun 16, 2009)

WIth all due respect a semi pro mma fighter would not be in your current condition


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## mark67 (Apr 14, 2010)

You need to be doing 4 exercises on each body part shoulders would be 2 press movements followed 2 shaping movements then shrugs at end


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## banford1 (Mar 27, 2012)

ash1981 said:


> 7 days at the gym...
> 
> You aint going nowhere son


So I'm gonna lower it now, I'm not training tomorrow or Sunday.



ash1981 said:


> WIth all due respect a semi pro mma fighter would not be in your current condition


Like I've already said, I've not trained MMA for.... 16 months whilst been sat on my ass.

Literally just ate drank and worked (as a chef) as my back and leg were totally destroyed (broken arm, muscle damage and torn ligaments in arm. Leg had muscle damage and torn ACL)


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## GreedyBen (Mar 8, 2011)

I'd just stick to compounds and up the cv.

Push pull legs etc with 20-30mins cv after.

Stick to the diet maybe up the fats a bit and only low gi carbs.


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## banford1 (Mar 27, 2012)

GreedyBen said:


> I'd just stick to compounds and up the cv.
> 
> Push pull legs etc with 20-30mins cv after.
> 
> Stick to the diet maybe up the fats a bit and only low gi carbs.


Cheers mate appreciate the help.


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## Mish (May 1, 2011)

At a glance, too much volume for natty

3 scoops of jack3d!

You're doing it wrong!


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## Dave 0511 (Feb 13, 2009)

what did they teach your on this level 2 qualification lol!


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## banford1 (Mar 27, 2012)

Dave 0511 said:


> what did they teach your on this level 2 qualification lol!


Basics lol as you can tell.


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## mark67 (Apr 14, 2010)

Would not call that basic training


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## L11 (Jan 21, 2011)

Are you sure you're only eating 1500 calories? Do you drink alcohol? Soft drinks? Only reason I ask is because I'm 70kg and the weight fell off me at 1800-2000 calories a day, you weigh more and consume less I woud've thought you'd be shrinking in no time.


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## banford1 (Mar 27, 2012)

L11 said:


> Are you sure you're only eating 1500 calories? Do you drink alcohol? Soft drinks? Only reason I ask is because I'm 70kg and the weight fell off me at 1800-2000 calories a day, you weigh more and consume less I woud've thought you'd be shrinking in no time.


Positive and under 70grams of carbs a day with a carb day on a Saturday consisting of Pasta etc.


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## banford1 (Mar 27, 2012)

Just so you all know I'm now on a clean bulk.

Eating more protein, moderate carbohydrates and low fat.

Training properly aswell now:

Monday

Seated chest press

Cable crossovers

Incline flyes

Pec deck

Tricep pulldown

French curls

Reverse skull crushers

Tuesday

Bent over row

Deadlift

Good mornings

Lat pulldown

Bicep curl (barbell and cables)

Hammer curl

Concentrated bicep curl (barbell)

Wednesday

Squats

Weighted lunges

Leg press

Calve raises

Leg extensions and curls

Thursday

Lat pulldown (behind neck)

Shoulder press (dumbbells and machine)

Lateral raises

Front raises

Clean and press

Friday

Rest

Saturday

Crunches

Pike sit ups

Leg raises

Medicine ball twists (sit ups)

20 min HIIT epilitical

Boxing 90 minutes

Sunday

Rest


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## mipike (Aug 12, 2012)

banford1 said:


> Just so you all know I'm now on a clean bulk.
> 
> Eating more protein, moderate carbohydrates and low fat.
> 
> ...


That's a lot of exercises, do you enjoy doing it/ stay motivated?

I train because I enjoy it, I'm not into bodybuilding so I don't go for loads of exercises for the same muscle group but if you're looking to gain muscle mass you need to do the big compound lifts, mainly Bench, Deads, Squats.

Train for strength and you'll get bigger and burn fat the same time as it's a lot more strenuous.

All takes time!


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## banford1 (Mar 27, 2012)

Yes I love it, my one and only hobby is exercise (martial arts) apart from reptiles lol.

But I'm looking to gain mass but keep water/fat down so still keeping it like a circuit but less exercises but more weight now.


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## slickcell (Sep 6, 2012)

banford1 said:


> Yes I love it, my one and only hobby is exercise (martial arts) apart from reptiles lol.
> 
> But I'm looking to gain mass but keep water/fat down so still keeping it like a circuit but less exercises but more weight now.


man, to be honest, you'll probably have a fair bit of muscle mass under the fat so what i would do, is do a one or two month 5 day week of purely cardio or mainly cardio based exercises until you've cut a good bit of the fat you have.

if you're looking to get back into MMA at some point, surely you'd want to be cut to and be making the most of the weight that youre carrying in the form of muscle (instead of fat) and therefore be able to fight in your ideal weight class?

sometimes its frustrating to only do cardio because you would rather see yourself get cut and musclier at the same time but realistically, it requires two different routine and diets to do it properly.

i can throw you my kettlebell workout which takes around 35mins including a 10min skipping warmup and it burns close to around 700kcal if you like? it'll push your heart rate well into the fat burning zone and give you a little resistance at the same time. if youre still adamant that you do weights aswell, id suggest a 3 day week of weights with this kettlebell routine to split your lifting days. i.e. monday - chest/back, tuesday - kettlebells (cardio), wednesday - shoulders + arms, thursday - kettlebells and friday - legs.

if you lift weights everyday, youre not giving your muscles enough time to repair (and build) and therefore, your body will change for the worse and your efforts in the gym will be useless.


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## banford1 (Mar 27, 2012)

Cheers mate appreciate it.

I'm thinking of juggling rest days so I get breaks on like Tuesday and Thursday so get rests on muscles, technically most will be resting whilst I'm working other parts such as legs etc.


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## slickcell (Sep 6, 2012)

banford1 said:


> Cheers mate appreciate it.
> 
> I'm thinking of juggling rest days so I get breaks on like Tuesday and Thursday so get rests on muscles, technically most will be resting whilst I'm working other parts such as legs etc.


i get what youre saying, 'they are resting if your not working the same muscle groups on consecutive days'. but overall, id do a three day weights week with cardio twice a week if youre trying to cut fat as that should be your main priority.

let us know how it goes anyway


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## banford1 (Mar 27, 2012)

slickcell said:


> i get what youre saying, 'they are resting if your not working the same muscle groups on consecutive days'. but overall, id do a three day weights week with cardio twice a week if youre trying to cut fat as that should be your main priority.
> 
> let us know how it goes anyway


Will do, thanks for the advice I'll take it into consideration.


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## DianabolLecter (Sep 9, 2012)

personally i think you are undereating and overtraining.


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## banford1 (Mar 27, 2012)

DianabolLecter said:


> personally i think you are undereating and overtraining.


Sorry diet has changed now:

9am: 1 slice brown toast with 3 eggs scrambled (1 yolk)

12pm: Tuna sandwhich on brown bread

Snack: small fruit salad (watermelon, apple, avocado)

2pm: Turkey beast pieces and a handfull of nuts

5pm: Rice with chicken breast and peas

Snack: cottage cheese

Post workout meal is 12pm with a protein shake.


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## Porkchop (May 24, 2012)

banford1 said:


> Sorry diet has changed now:
> 
> 9am: 1 slice brown toast with 3 eggs scrambled (1 yolk)
> 
> ...


but what is the total calories of this new eating plan, and more importantly, what are your macros? Those are the things you need to post up to get help with your goals dude.

At least you've listened to a lot of the good advice here and cut down on your exercises (only the Duracell bunny could have done that original routine), but as said above, IMO you still need to simplify it more. You could change your rest day to Wednesday, that way you do two days on, rest, 3 days on, rest.


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## banford1 (Mar 27, 2012)

Porkchop said:


> but what is the total calories of this new eating plan, and more importantly, what are your macros? Those are the things you need to post up to get help with your goals dude.
> 
> At least you've listened to a lot of the good advice here and cut down on your exercises (only the Duracell bunny could have done that original routine), but as said above, IMO you still need to simplify it more. You could change your rest day to Wednesday, that way you do two days on, rest, 3 days on, rest.


Total calories is around 2100 including my shakes. My BMR is 1800 so I'm gaining just not too much.

Haha I know I realised once I had done it, used to take about 3 hours.

So just mainly use compound exercises like said?


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## banford1 (Mar 27, 2012)

Macros are 50/30/20


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## Matt 1 (May 8, 2010)

you need to cut

keep gyming (not looked at ur routine yet)

but reduce those cals untill you look leaner, then bulk sensibly ie no more than 500cals surplus a day, that way youll stay lean and build muscle


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## slickcell (Sep 6, 2012)

Matt 1 said:


> you need to cut
> 
> keep gyming (not looked at ur routine yet)
> 
> but reduce those cals untill you look leaner, then bulk sensibly ie no more than 500cals surplus a day, that way youll stay lean and build muscle


exactly what im saying!


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## Robbie789 (Sep 6, 2012)

banford1 said:


> Total calories is around 2100 including my shakes. My BMR is 1800 so I'm gaining just not too much.
> 
> Haha I know I realised once I had done it, used to take about 3 hours.
> 
> So just mainly use compound exercises like said?


*
BMR is how many calories you'd need if you stayed in bed all day*, plus, at 5'8 & 81kgs you're looking at a bmr of 1900 anyway.

You need to work out your calories maintenance, which is how many calories you'd actually need a day, there isn't a 100% method of doing it, it's kind of trial and error, but bascially for you, on a rest day it's your body weight (lbs) x 15.

So let's say your KM is 2600, if you eat that a day you'll stay the same weight, if you eat less, you'll lose weight, and if you eat more, you guessed it, you'll gain weight.

If you're clean bulking, you want to aim for 500kcals over maintenance, with 1-1.5g of protein for each lb you weigh

If you're cutting and want to keep as much muscle as possible, I would aim for 250kcals below, and do 250kcals worth of cardio.

Remember, your KM will be more on gym days then rest days.

I'd recommend cutting if you're @ 18% BF


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## liamc1989 (Sep 10, 2012)

I'd cut mate see what you look like dieted down


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## Robbie789 (Sep 6, 2012)

Regarding your workout-

Chest- No bench press?

Back- You shouldn't be able to do good mornings straight after deadlifts if you're doing them heavy enough

Leg- Squat DEEP, and if you don't, do some hamstring exercises

Shoulders- Why the lat pull down again? Do side raises and some rear delt isoltaion

Start off your workouts with heavy compound moves, then do isolation.


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## liam0810 (Jan 6, 2011)

Siklecell - why would you do purely cardio for two months? Won't you sacrifice hard earned muscle doing this?

OP - Have you looked at a push/pull/leg routine? You could do this monday/wednesday/friday and do steady state cardio on says off


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## slickcell (Sep 6, 2012)

liam0810 said:


> Siklecell - why would you do purely cardio for two months? Won't you sacrifice hard earned muscle doing this?
> 
> OP - Have you looked at a push/pull/leg routine? You could do this monday/wednesday/friday and do steady state cardio on says off


I know i said it, but i didnt mean two months of pure cardio. At the minute, im doing a month of 5 day split of mon, weds, fri - kettlebell circuit and tuesday, thursday - 2.5 mile run. The kettlebells push my heart rate into the fat burning zone whilst also giving me a little resistance workout at the same time. So although its basically allowing me to strip fat like a cardio-intensive workout, its allowing me to work the main muscle groups as a compound exercise to a certain extent. Also, regarding sacrificing hard earned muscle - i havent lifted much weight in the last few months anyway so thats not my main priority. I dont think it should be the OP's main priority either given the BF he has to lose. I would focus on a simple cut, then clean bulk.


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## liam0810 (Jan 6, 2011)

slickcell said:


> I know i said it, but i didnt mean two months of pure cardio. At the minute, im doing a month of 5 day split of mon, weds, fri - kettlebell circuit and tuesday, thursday - 2.5 mile run. The kettlebells push my heart rate into the fat burning zone whilst also giving me a little resistance workout at the same time. So although its basically allowing me to strip fat like a cardio-intensive workout, its allowing me to work the main muscle groups as a compound exercise to a certain extent. Also, regarding sacrificing hard earned muscle - i havent lifted much weight in the last few months anyway so thats not my main priority. I dont think it should be the OP's main priority either given the BF he has to lose. I would focus on a simple cut, then clean bulk.


But if he can maintain as much muscle as possible by still lifting heavy whilst being in a calorie deficit and upping his cardio and losing far then wouldn't this be a better option? As dropping fat is easier than gaining muscle and you should do your best to keep what you can.


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## slickcell (Sep 6, 2012)

liam0810 said:


> But if he can maintain as much muscle as possible by still lifting heavy whilst being in a calorie deficit and upping his cardio and losing far then wouldn't this be a better option? As dropping fat is easier than gaining muscle and you should do your best to keep what you can.


i agree mate, if he can do that then yes, that's an ideal scenario but personally, i would find it much harder to build and get lean at the same time so instead, id rather get lean first and then bulk at a rate of 300-500kcal excess per day. that way youre bulking to an already lean physique.

to get properly cut, i dont find it realistic that this can be done whilst bulking. i believe its either a case of bulking, then cutting or cutting, then bulking. yes, if you cut then bulk, its very possible that youre going to put on fat during youre bulking stage but no where near as much as you would have lost in the first place during the cutting period.

i suppose everyone has their own ways and opinions and something that works for me might not work for someone else but IMO, if i was in the OP's position, due to what i believe to be his goals, to get leaner, and considering the amount of fat he has to lose, i would go through stages of cutting, then bulking to achieve it.


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## Dan 45 (Aug 16, 2012)

Holy sh*t that work out....


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## banford1 (Mar 27, 2012)

Can I have this thread removed please, Cheers.


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## banford1 (Mar 27, 2012)

This is after week 1, I've gained 4lb somehow but I'm sure I'm losing weight....


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