# Gynecomastia-Male Breast Development.



## hackskii

Gynecomastia-Male Breast Development.

By: Bruce J. Nadler M.D.

Several years ago my answering service called to tell me the number of obscene telephone calls that were coming through on my line alarmed them. They went on to explain that the calls all started on normally but then all of these young men started to use foul language. They couldn't believe the number of different people doing this. I thought for a moment and then asked if the term they heard was "bitch tits." "Yes that is exactly what they say" was the reply.

With a big smile I explained to them that these were just patients expressing a medical condition. Gynecomastia, bitch tits or "the bodybuilder's tumor" all mean the same thing, the embarrassing development of male breasts.

Gynecomastia

The treatment of gynecomastia has become a specific interest of mine due to all the bodybuilders I treat. I have long ago set the world's record in performing these surgeries and have lectured to other surgeons on my techniques.

It is a problem that has existed through antiquity. Ancient hieroglyphics show the condition on several of the Pharaohs. It is not all that uncommon. The Navy did a study during World War II and classified one quarter of their recruits as having excessive breast tissue.

Seated Statue Of Amenhotep IV (Akhenaten)

Dynasty 18, 1353-1337 BC

Click To Enlarge.

Causes

The condition can occur naturally or as a side effect of anabolic steroids and other medications. It has also been implicated with the excessive use of marijuana.

The use of anabolic steroids is especially implicated. Of course not all steroids will cause it, only the ones that aromatize. Anadrol, Sustanon and Dianabol are especially known causes. Some others are weaker stimulators and are dose related.

When gynecomastia occurs naturally, it is a slower process and usually consists of both glandular and fatty tissue. Anabolic steroid induces gynecomastia occurs much more rapidly and is usually a sheet of pure glandular tissue. Of course there is a range between these extremes

When the body senses too much testosterone or a testosterone like substance, it tries to reduce the level by a process called aromitization. This converts the testosterone to estradiol, an estrogen like substance. All men have some glandular tissue. If there is also genetic receptor sensitivity, the increased estradiol level will stimulate this tissue to grow.

Symptoms

It is first noticed as some sensitivity in the nipple area often going on to real discomfort. As the tissue further develops, the area will swell and extend laterally under the arm. The condition can run the range from a mass under the nipple with perhaps some coning to fully developed breasts.

It is most noticeable when you least want it to be. If the weather is cold, everything tightens up. But in the warm weather, when you want to take your shirt off, it all pouts forward and is noticeable.

I've lost track of the number of my patients who continuously pinched themselves or used ice cube and cold water to keep things from being too noticeable. Estrogen blockers like Nolvadex or Arimidex can prevent the occurrence but only surgery can cure it.

Click Here For The Top Selling Estrogen Blockers.

Surgery

The surgery consists of a combination of liposuction and direct glandular excision through a small incision at the nipple border. Beware of any surgeon who claims to be able to treat it with liposuction alone. I have had to operate on many patients who have had this previous surgery elsewhere.

Liposuction merely removes the fatty component and after the swelling subsides, you merely have a smaller version of what was there before.

I have also seen patients scarred across the entire chest and others who have had parts of their pectoral muscles removed.

It is done under general anesthesia and lasts about 2 hours. Liposuction is first done to remove the fatty component allowing the glandular tissue to condense. A small incision is then made at the lower nipple border.

The glandular tissue is then carefully removed tracing the extension under the arm. Too many inexperienced surgeons fail to do this creating a crater in the middle of the chest. A small amount of glandular tissue is left just behind the nipple to prevent collapse and indentation.

Often suction drains are used for the first few post-operative days to prevent fluid collection is the pocket previously occupied by the tissue. I do all the suturing with dissolving, buried sutures to minimize scarring and avoid that railroad track look. A compression vest is worn for several weeks to control the skin shrinkage.

Post Surgery Health

It is very important to be off any anabolic cycle for at least 6 weeks prior to the surgery. Anabolic steroid side effects such as slowing of blood clotting and increased blood pressure add to the possibility of surgical complications. In addition altered liver chemistry due to some anabolics can add to the risk of anesthesia.

Low impact aerobic activity can resume in a week. Light weight training can resume in 3 weeks with the exception of chest and back. Chest and back can start lightly at 4 weeks and full routines can be resumed at 6 weeks.

It is my greatest pleasure when the patients can tell me they can happily walk around with their shirts off.

For more information I can be contacted at 1-800-445-0505 or through my web site at Bruce J. Nadler M.D. Aesthetic Plastic Surgery.

Bruce J. Nadler M.D.


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## SD

Flex Factor said:


> Just wondering if anyone else has an opinion on this as i've noticed that in other threads arimidex and letro have been detailed as actually stopping/reversing gyno.
> 
> Is this to say that once an individual experiences gyno, or a level of gyno (i.e. cone like nipples and swelling under arm), it will be impossible to reverse without surgery?
> 
> Any viewpoints appreciated.
> 
> :confused1:


I think lumps are pretty irreversible without surgery but gyno symptoms, itching, pain, slight swelling can definately be reversed with an AI or SERM.

SD


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## SD

Flex Factor said:


> Would that go for the cone like nipples and swelling?
> 
> Cheers mate.


Hmm, never had that, I think from the description its just swelling so yes it should go, only hard fibrous lumps need surgery (hopefully).

SD


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## brownie

ya i have 2 hard lumps under my nipples,.. but they are not visible to look at but i can feel them. this happened on my first cycle, i always use an AI now


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## PHHead

Flex Factor said:


> Would that go for the cone like nipples and swelling?
> 
> Cheers mate.


I have this very mildly mate from Anadrol and am currently taking Letro to get rid of it, I will let everyone know how it goes!


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## Sylar

Letro will reverse early stage gyno, including small gyno lumps.

Once it turns fibrous, you'll need to go under the knife like said above. (People do use Letro to reduce fibrous gyno though, but it will not reverse it..)


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## hackskii

Flex Factor said:


> Just wondering if anyone else has an opinion on this as i've noticed that in other threads arimidex and letro have been detailed as actually stopping/reversing gyno.
> 
> Is this to say that once an individual experiences gyno, or a level of gyno (i.e. cone like nipples and swelling under arm), it will be impossible to reverse without surgery?
> 
> Any viewpoints appreciated.
> 
> :confused1:


Remember too, that this dude makes his money on surgery.....

I myself as well as many others have in fact reversed my gyno with the use of letro.

I know another guy on this board that reversed his with adex.

I will tell you that the letro killed my sex drive flat, also got some freaking bad stiff joints (they are generally a bit stiff anyway).

Remember as well, that estrogen is necessary for good lipid profiles and supports bone, so prolonged use may compromise these.


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## hackskii

No doubt using an AI during an aromitizable cycle would be a good idea, this I have found works better for recovery beings that estrogen in itself is so supressive.

Doubtful that .5 EOD will reverse the gyno during a cycle.

that would probably be enough to keep estrogen sides at bay.


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## hackskii

I would try and reduce the gyno in between the cycles, then use some estrogen management during the cycle.

I guess you could do 2.5 letro during your cycle, but I think you would have better odds doing it in between.

For adex it would be 1mg a day, I know a guy that reversed his that way.


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## donggle

Question. Can gyno be induced by trauma?

Going to sound a bit odd this.

I'm on Dbol and Sus at the minute. About 2 weeks ago (New Years Eve) my mate being a prat twisted my right nipple when I was asleep. I mean to the point of nearly ripping it off, I had bad pain for the next few days. It felt like a bruise but didn't actually swell or bruise.

Now 2 weeks later it feels like a bruise actually under the nipple and I'm not sure about swelling/lumps, I can't tell tbh, I think there is maybe a very small hard lump, but gyno starts as soft doesn't it? Only on the right side. I'm in 2 minds about it. What do you guys think?


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## PHHead

I'm sure I have read that playing with them can make it worse, don't no about bringing it on though..............I try to touch my bad nipple as little as poss!


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## lethal86

I sometimes think i have some sort of gyno!?

I have quite puffy nipples, but never had any pain or itchiness, and i can't feel anything that stands out as hard or lumpy around the nipples.


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## hackskii

estfna said:


> Question. Can gyno be induced by trauma?
> 
> Going to sound a bit odd this.
> 
> I'm on Dbol and Sus at the minute. About 2 weeks ago (New Years Eve) my mate being a prat twisted my right nipple when I was asleep. I mean to the point of nearly ripping it off, I had bad pain for the next few days. It felt like a bruise but didn't actually swell or bruise.
> 
> Now 2 weeks later it feels like a bruise actually under the nipple and I'm not sure about swelling/lumps, I can't tell tbh, I think there is maybe a very small hard lump, but gyno starts as soft doesn't it? Only on the right side. I'm in 2 minds about it. What do you guys think?


Yes, I have a mate a mate that pinched my nipple once when it was a little irritated on cycle and it popped up into a lump.

Other nipple was fine.

So, I guess it could happen, from what I have seen.



PHHead said:


> I'm sure I have read that playing with them can make it worse, don't no about bringing it on though..............I try to touch my bad nipple as little as poss!


I have read it is prolactin that is elivated when playing with your nipples.



lethal86 said:


> I sometimes think i have some sort of gyno!?
> 
> I have quite puffy nipples, but never had any pain or itchiness, and i can't feel anything that stands out as hard or lumpy around the nipples.


It is probably nothing, but puffy nipples, you will feel a lump behind the nipple if it is gyno.


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## Sylar

hackskii said:


> Yes, I have a mate a mate that pinched my nipple once when it was a little irritated on cycle and it popped up into a lump.
> 
> Other nipple was fine.
> 
> So, I guess it could happen, from what I have seen.


Could you really class that as gynecomastia though? It was probably just bruised internally from the trauma?


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## hackskii

Sylar said:


> Could you really class that as gynecomastia though? It was probably just bruised internally from the trauma?


It flaried up so fast it wasnt funny, I had a bit of pain there from an HCG shot the day before, after that, I hit the letro, by the time I realized the letro was going to take too long to do anything, I took some tore with it.

I dont think tore has a reaction like nolva.

It eventually went away for good.

It was not a hard lump but it was behind the nipple and kindof felt like a disk, that was fatter in the middle.

Hard lumps might not be a good thing. I doubt it would reverse that.

but that run of letro got a bump off of my wrist that had been there for about 4 years and was almost the size of a pea.

Strange how that went away and never came back and that was hard as hell.


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## Sylar

hackskii said:


> but that run of letro got a bump off of my wrist that had been there for about 4 years and was almost the size of a pea.
> 
> Strange how that went away and never came back and that was hard as hell.


Yeah, i saw you mention that the other day. Either a coincidence or a mystery.. What do you think the lump on your wrist was mate?


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## hackskii

Sylar said:


> Yeah, i saw you mention that the other day. Either a coincidence or a mystery.. What do you think the lump on your wrist was mate?


No idea, but it was there for like 4 years, then just on the letro, it went away and it never came back.

You could see it on my wrist.

I could not guess what it was.


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## Sylar

Maybe you have a third nipple. Never heard of one of the wrist though..


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## hackskii

Sylar said:


> Maybe you have a third nipple. Never heard of one of the wrist though..


If it was at the top, it would be called a ganglian cyst.


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## fatfunkster

what is Letro?


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## hackskii

fatfunkster said:


> what is Letro?


A very strong AI


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## darzo86

I took some methyl 1-test about a year ago not knowing there was some form of anabolic steroid in there, few months later i started getting puffiness in one nipple and now ive a small lump underneath the nipple can anyone offer any advice as i really don't want this growth to continue. It looks so daft as its only one side!


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## hackskii

You can try some letro, and see if you can reverse it.


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## Goose

I have, for as long as I can remember had the symptoms of Gyno. Years before I knew much about bodybuilding let along steroids.

I went to a specialist who had a look. He said it was to do with my hormone levels whilst I was going through puberty. Through the years as I've got bigger it is less noticeable but its still there.

As I had it before any gear I can't really say if its Gyno or not?

-Matt


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## TaintedSoul

hackskii said:


> Yes, I have a mate a mate that pinched my nipple once when it was a little irritated on cycle and it popped up into a lump.
> 
> Other nipple was fine.
> 
> So, I guess it could happen, from what I have seen.


You know this pinching nipple things could have some merit to it. When started my first course after being off for awhile I had just met my current partner. She at that stage when out loved pinching nipples for some reason. I was also doing dbol for the first time!! :cursing:

My left peck does trouble me and battling to keep what has started under control.


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## gymratpitt

MORE OF AN OPEN QUESTION THAN A REPLY: Does anybody have any 'benchmark' on cc volume aromatizing roid intake/wk where gyno is of concern? Doesn't genetics have something to do with it as well?


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## mindmuscle

Goose said:


> I have, for as long as I can remember had the symptoms of
> 
> 
> 
> *Gyno*
> ​
> . Years before I knew much about bodybuilding let along steroids.
> 
> I went to a specialist who had a look. He said it was to do with my hormone levels whilst I was going through puberty. Through the years as I've got bigger it is less noticeable but its still there.
> 
> As I had it before any gear I can't really say if its
> 
> 
> 
> *Gyno*
> ​
> or not?
> 
> -Matt


Yes mate this would be classed as teen onset* gyno*. As you say it's due to elevated* estrogen* levels during puberty. It is quite common, and in many cases would subside and disappear with time. But for some it will remain, and if you have this existing* gyno* you are probably going to be more* sensitive* to flare ups due to AAS use.


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## hackskii

gymratpitt said:


> MORE OF AN OPEN QUESTION THAN A REPLY: Does anybody have any 'benchmark' on cc volume aromatizing roid intake/wk where gyno is of concern? Doesn't genetics have something to do with it as well?


Genetics yes, the type of gear yes, the amount of gear yes, and id bet that even diet would play a part including excess fat.


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## Goose

mindmuscle said:


> Yes mate this would be classed as teen onset* gyno*. As you say it's due to elevated* estrogen* levels during puberty. It is quite common, and in many cases would subside and disappear with time. But for some it will remain, and if you have this existing* gyno* you are probably going to be more* sensitive* to flare ups due to AAS use.


Well I was thinking isn't Gyno sore?? As i'm not sore one bit?


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## mindmuscle

Goose said:


> Well I was thinking isn't Gyno sore?? As i'm not sore one bit?


In the previous post you stated that you had as long as you could remember had symptoms of gyno, but you didn't mention that it was not sore. What are the symptoms? Since a specialist told you that it was due to hormone flactuation during puberty it does sound like teen onset gyno which is really quite common. However as it isn't sore at all maybe it isn't? What is you BF%? Could it be excess fat, or is it a hard lump? If it has been there a while and turned into fibrous tissue could this be a reason why it's not sore?? Hacks would gyno remain sore even if it's turned fibrous?? Not sure mate, but if it's been there a while there isn't much you can do about it really bar surgery, but you would be wise to be cautious and take precautions in case of any flare ups.


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## hackskii

I have known guys that get gyno and they never got sore.

My daughter is going to be 10 this year and her little boobies are starting to grow, she was upset because she said they hurt.

I just thought that was strange.


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## r_richson

Pretty sure I got it, when it started about 16 it was sore but now at 20 its fine. Sucks to have it but theres not much I can do really apart from have the f***ers sucked out. Would I be more liable for it to occur on a cycle say after the op?


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## Goose

mindmuscle said:


> In the previous post you stated that you had as long as you could remember had symptoms of gyno, but you didn't mention that it was not sore. What are the symptoms? Since a specialist told you that it was due to hormone flactuation during puberty it does sound like teen onset gyno which is really quite common. However as it isn't sore at all maybe it isn't? What is you BF%? Could it be excess fat, or is it a hard lump? If it has been there a while and turned into fibrous tissue could this be a reason why it's not sore?? Hacks would gyno remain sore even if it's turned fibrous?? Not sure mate, but if it's been there a while there isn't much you can do about it really bar surgery, but you would be wise to be cautious and take precautions in case of any flare ups.


Well I feel like i have pea size lumps around my nipple area, more lateral (armpit side) hard to explain. No pain what so ever but the nipples point when warm and go what I would call 'normal' when cold. BF im unsure, slightly lower than what I am in my avatar as that is 6 months old and have been on a strict diet for 2 months.


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## Cap'n Beefy

I had small lumps develop last year. A pal gave me a big pot of tamoxifen and said take 40mg a day until they've gone.

Nothing on any website backed up this approach, but he was right, by jingo. mg:

However, some months later, this has not worked a second time, and I have small, not quite central to the nipple lumpy bits, both sides, but more so on the right. The weird thing is that they are sensitive some days but not others. I am still bridging, so not short of test, and have taken the tamoxifen every day since first starting them.

The problem is now I am successfully dieting, I can't tell whether there may be more to them than first thought, or whether I simply have some stubborn (AKA the last bit to come off) fat on my lower chest, as I do on the sides of my torso. These two "fatty" areas feel similar when felt between two fingers, but is there a more conclusive way to tell breast tissue? There is no "disc" evident.

Yours, slightly panicky,

Cap'n B


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## super123

sorry to sound stupid but is what is an AI and what does it mean?

I know what serm is


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## anabolic ant

super123 said:


> sorry to sound stupid but is what is an AI and what does it mean?
> 
> I know what serm is


hey,i'm with you on this too...

there are loads of terms i aint familiar with:

AI

letro

serm

tore

imo

anyone care to do a abbreviation thread????

sorry scott...getting back to the gyno thread,tried repping you for your find,but have to spread some more love around before showing you some love bro!!!


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## hackskii

anabolic ant said:


> hey,i'm with you on this too...
> 
> there are loads of terms i aint familiar with:
> 
> AI = Aromatase inhibitor
> 
> letro = Femara (letrozole)
> 
> serm = Selective/estrogen/receptor/modulator
> 
> tore = Toremifene (Fareston)
> 
> imo = In My Opinion
> 
> anyone care to do a abbreviation thread????
> 
> sorry scott...getting back to the gyno thread,tried repping you for your find,but have to spread some more love around before showing you some love bro!!!


There you go bro


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## donggle

What's the current thought on running a course with Deca in it?

Can Novlva be taken to stop the gyno? I've heard some saying Deca can some how interact with Nolva to produce progesterone gyno.

Also what is the difference between normal and progesterone gyno?


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## anabolic ant

hackskii said:


> There you go bro


thanks scott...you are ever continually helping my knowledge base!!!!

thanks bro!!!!


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## ba baracuss

> I had small lumps develop last year. A pal gave me a big pot of tamoxifen and said take 40mg a day until they've gone.
> 
> Nothing on any website backed up this approach, but he was right, by jingo. mg:
> 
> However, some months later, this has not worked a second time, and I have small, not quite central to the nipple lumpy bits, both sides, but more so on the right. The weird thing is that they are sensitive some days but not others. I am still bridging, so not short of test, and have taken the tamoxifen every day since first starting them.
> 
> The problem is now I am successfully dieting, I can't tell whether there may be more to them than first thought, or whether I simply have some stubborn (AKA the last bit to come off) fat on my lower chest, as I do on the sides of my torso. These two "fatty" areas feel similar when felt between two fingers, but is there a more conclusive way to tell breast tissue? There is no "disc" evident.
> 
> Yours, slightly panicky,
> 
> Cap'n B


Nolva won't properly deal with it mate, it will just occupy the estrogen receptors in the breast tissue.

You need an AI like adex to prevent the estrogen forming in the first place, and maybe remove any gyno, but letro is the strongest and best at removing by all accounts.

Plenty of people better qualified to advise in more depth than me though.


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## Hellbound

I have some gyno, so do my brothers but we're all fat heffers at the moment. I remember a few years ago I was around 11 stone (I'm 6'2") and still had a lil cone nippleage going on. At the moment I feel the only remedy is to get as much muscle on as possible with very low body fat%. If my nipples still bother me when I'm ripped I'm going to go under the knife as I'd rather deal with it then let it effect my quality of life.


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## hackskii

estfna said:


> What's the current thought on running a course with Deca in it?
> 
> Can Novlva be taken to stop the gyno? I've heard some saying Deca can some how interact with Nolva to produce progesterone gyno.
> 
> Also what is the difference between normal and progesterone gyno?


Yes, nolva is said to upregulate the progesterone receptors, sylar is better at this one than me.

I was always under the impression a DHT dirivitive drug would be a good idea to run with deca, something like masteron, proviron, or winstrol.

I like the synergy in that TBH.

I run test in all my cycles.


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## ba baracuss

hackskii said:


> Yes, nolva is said to upregulate the progesterone receptors, sylar is better at this one than me.
> 
> I was always under the impression a DHT dirivitive drug would be a good idea to run with deca, something like masteron, proviron, or winstrol.
> 
> I like the synergy in that TBH.
> 
> I run test in all my cycles.


I've read around this quite a bit and it's confusing.

Deca, tren and oxy are progestins and nolva is said to upregulate PGR, whatever that means exactly :whistling:

PGR gyno is apparently estrogen gyno that's been aggravated by PGR, so if you can stop the estrogen with an AI you should be ok.

Hopefully Sylar or anyone else can help out here some more.


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## Sylar

The way i understand it is (and i may be wrong lol..) - Tren for example, does not aromatise in the body, but does convert to a metabolite that display a very strong binding affinity to the PgR, which is slightly stonger than progesterone itself - Nolva upregulates the progesterone receptor, so can exacerbate progesterone related gyno issues when running 19-nor progestins like Tren, Deca etc.

As for progestenic gyno, Progestins seem to augment the stimulatory effect of oestrogens on the mammary tissue and there is a stong synergy between oestrogen and progesterone, so running an AI to lower circulating levels of oestrogen may hep to decrease the chances of developing progesterone related gyno.

Progestins have also been shown to have a stimulatory effect on (PRL-R) mRNA which is the prolactin receptor by increasing PRL-R protein, so runing a dopaminergic like Pramipexole, Cabaser etc with the AI as a preventive measure is also be a good idea IMO, or keep them both close to hand, whatever floats your boat...


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## hackskii

Sylar said:


> The way i understand it is (and i may be wrong lol..) - Tren for example, does not aromatise in the body, but does convert to a metabolite that display a very strong binding affinity to the PgR, which is slightly stonger than progesterone itself - Nolva upregulates the progesterone receptor, so can exacerbate progesterone related gyno issues when running 19-nor progestins like Tren, Deca etc.
> 
> As for progestenic gyno, Progestins seem to augment the stimulatory effect of oestrogens on the mammary tissue and there is a stong synergy between oestrogen and progesterone, so running an AI to lower circulating levels of oestrogen may hep to decrease the chances of developing progesterone related gyno.
> 
> Progestins have also been shown to have a stimulatory effect on (PRL-R) mRNA which is the prolactin receptor by increasing PRL-R protein, so runing a dopaminergic like Pramipexole, Cabaser etc with the AI as a preventive measure is also be a good idea IMO, or keep them both close to hand, whatever floats your boat...


Anyone else get a bonner from that like I did? :thumb:

Yes, I would suspect running an AI if you are gyno prone for tren or deca would be a good idea.

I still think DHT opposes progesterone, but to what degree I am not sure.

Nice post Lloyd


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## Sylar

hackskii said:


> I still think DHT opposes progesterone, but to what degree I am not sure.


Yeah, i think so too mate.

I'm starting a UG combo mix from Sunday which contains per ml: 200mg Test E - 100mg Tren E & 100mg Mast E.

I like the synergy between the above compounds, especially with the Mast being a DHT derivative. Can't wait to crack the vial open!


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## hackskii

Sylar said:


> Yeah, i think so too mate.
> 
> I'm starting a UG combo mix from Sunday which contains per ml: 200mg Test E - 100mg Tren E & 100mg Mast E.
> 
> I like the synergy between the above compounds, especially with the Mast being a DHT derivative. Can't wait to crack the vial open!


That sounds like a nice combo gear mate.

I love the synergy between those, sadly though it turns me into a maniac in the sex drive dept, not sure why but it is freaky.


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## alex.p

I got some gyno on the rebound from last cycle during pct, ended up being about the size of a pea...

Once pct finished I started running letro, been on about 4 weeks now, almost 5 and although the lumps gone down there is still a small lump there, maybe half a flattened pea

Anyone think worth carrying on the letro or is it probably as small as it'll get - letro will only reduce not eliminate right?

Also after reading a few posts in this an AI is a certainty to run with cycles now to prevent it getting any worse? Std adex at 0.5mg/e3d ok or does dose it have to be increased because of existing gyno?


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## hackskii

I would start with the adex @ .5 EOD, and if gyno flairs then ED.


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## heavyweight

hackskii said:


> I would start with the adex @ .5 EOD, and if gyno flairs then ED.


I read somewhere on this forum that u can get surgery for free on the nhs in the uk (realising u might not know above as from the usa), is this true? i thought i also read that u or a friend does surgery (is this wrong!). Also where would u recommend me going to have this surgery done well and obviously as cheap as possible (as i am not rich yet!)  :thumb:


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## alex.p

Has anyone here run letro over a month to reverse gyno and got results?

Am 5 weeks into running it and still a small lump - is there a max.time should run it for? Am trying to start a cycle in a fortnight but want this sorted first

cheers


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## hackskii

How much are you running?


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## Tall

Stumbled across this the other day from a thread link Magic put up on someones log.

It's a Japanese study from the 70s which is talking about how Epistane/Epistanol is better than Masteron at reducing Gyno.



> *2*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> * 3*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *-Epithio-5*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *-androstan-17ß-ol in Treatment of Gynecomastia*
> 
> *</NOBR><NOBR>OSAHIKO ABE, M.D.1</NOBR>, <NOBR>SOICHI KUMAOKA, M.D.2</NOBR> and <NOBR>HIROSHI YAMAMOTO, M.D.3</NOBR> *
> 
> 1 Department of Surgery, National Cancer Center Hospital Tokyo, Japan
> 
> 2 Endocrinology Division, National Cancer Center Research Institute Tokyo, Japan
> 
> 33 Department of Surgery, National Cancer Center Hospital Tokyo, Japan
> 
> Received November 19, 1973;
> 
> 
> 1. The clinical effect of epitiostanol, a new anti-estrogen agent (2
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ,3
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -epithio-5a-androstan-17ß-ol) against gynecomastia was studied in comparison with dromostanolone propionate in fifty-four patients ranging from twenty to fifty years in age without previous history of hormone therapy and with normal liver function. The experiment was performed for eight weeks by double blind methods in three dosage groups, epithiostanol 10 mg, and 20 mg and dromostanolone propionate 50 mg.
> 
> 2. Epithiostanol 20 mg was most effective with regards to effect on mass size and tenderness, (effective in 96%, 20/21), followed by 10 mg epitiostanol (effective in 89%, 16/18) and dromostanolone propionate 50 mg (effective in 89%, 16/18) in descending order. No side effects were observed in any of the three groups.
> 
> 3. Based on the results of the present study, epitiostanol is concluded to be at least as effective as dromostanolone propionate against gynecomastia and to be safe from the viewpoint of side effects. A satisfactory therapeutical effect on gynecomastia can be expected with a weekly dosage of 20 mg of epitiostanol for an administration period of between five to eight weeks.


----------



## TaintedSoul

Doesnt winny help gyno a little? could be wrong not sure.

And what does Masteron do?

Oh and I've been running letro since monday and I'm still horny. Everyone says it destroys that.


----------



## alex.p

hackskii said:


> How much are you running?


Been running 2.5mg for 4 weeks, stupidly (I know) went up to 5mg for just over a week but shattered my joints..

Is a small lump right under the top of nipple but was noticeable and sensitive. Is very dry around the nipple and slightly to the outside now as well (from the letro I guess)

Not 100% sure because of that how much lump is left, but still sensitive as hell

Also - that epistane paper, is it actually saying it can remove existing gyno though? Surely not better than letro as well


----------



## Tall

alex.p said:


> Been running 2.5mg for 4 weeks, stupidly (I know) went up to 5mg for just over a week but shattered my joints..
> 
> Is a small lump right under the top of nipple but was noticeable and sensitive. Is very dry around the nipple and slightly to the outside now as well (from the letro I guess)
> 
> Not 100% sure because of that how much lump is left, but still sensitive as hell
> 
> Also - that epistane paper, is it actually saying it can remove existing gyno though? Surely not better than letro as well


The comparison is not made to letro, just to masteron.


----------



## geeby112

it would be good for people to send in pics if they think they have gyno, that way we could all know what we are looking for when checking

many people dont have the itchness/sensative sensations but develop gyno out of know where?


----------



## Tall

geeby112 said:


> it would be good for people *to send in pics if they think they have gyno*, that way we could all know what we are looking for when checking
> 
> many people dont have the itchness/sensative sensations but develop gyno out of know where?


Mate I'd bet every AAS user has had a panic at some point and assumed some chest fat / itchy nips to be gyno.


----------



## donggle

geeby112 said:


> it would be good for people to send in pics if they think they have gyno, that way we could all know what we are looking for when checking
> 
> many people dont have the itchness/sensative sensations but develop gyno out of know where?


You can't actually see it in alot of people though. I have a small lump, not even pea size under my right nipple. I can't see it and neither can anyone else, but I can fell it when I push on it.

If it gets to the point where you can see it to be able to identify it then you're are already too late to be checking up on what you have imo.


----------



## hackskii

Strangly I didnt think I was gyno prone, but now for some reason I am more gyno prone.

Letro killed mine and it was totally gone.

Now every cycle I can feel a slight little pain and probably because I run low dose HCG with that, perhaps this maybe the reason but not sure.

I run estrogen management now, and 10mg aromasin a day is enough to keep the gyno at bay.

Had no effects on sex drive, and joint stiffness.

Letro on the other hand has far more sides and I can tell is pretty damn strong.


----------



## jimbo1436114513

Hacks have you ever hear of running pramipexole for gyno?


----------



## hackskii

jimbo said:


> Hacks have you ever hear of running pramipexole for gyno?


Never heard of it actually.

Can you give me some information on this one please?

If you do well I can give you a long distance blow job...............well, not really....lol

Id like to hear your words mate.........

By the way, you have a nice bod jim.


----------



## GetBigOrDieTryn

Hello,

Im currentley in my 7week of my cycle on Test Cip / Deca nan stacking 1ml of each.

I have noticed some itching and discomfort around the nipples, so a friend suggested that i start taking Nolvadex, 2 a day each morning, until the discomfort goes away.

It went away, so i stopped taking it, then it came back so i have start taking it again.

Is this the best way, or should i just take Nolva during my cycle anyway?

As i only have 3 weeks left of my cycle, i want some advise for coming off the cycle and taking chlomid etc.

regards


----------



## geeby112

Tall said:


> Mate I'd bet every AAS user has had a panic at some point and assumed some chest fat / itchy nips to be gyno.


true

if you wasnt using AAS you would ignore but when you are your paranoid as hell. i guess the best way to be sure would be get to a low body fat?

some is noticable while others just feel it.


----------



## alex.p

If the gyno lump was initially caused by progesterone (say a deca only cycle, or deca/dbol) will the letro still do the same job if this is post cycle?


----------



## roy

what do they mean by swelling under arm???


----------



## Macro

hackskii said:


> Never heard of it actually.
> 
> Can you give me some information on this one please?


http://www.afboard.com/forum/anabolic-discussion/31745-prami-success-story.html

http://www.afboard.com/forum/anabolic-discussion/30264-pramipexole-prolactin-suppression-prevention-vs-treatment-dosing.html

http://www.afboard.com/forum/anabolic-discussion/29551-prami-protocol.html

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=2203276

note the 400% increase in GH


----------



## Tom1990

I am going to start taking 250test and 250 tren pw soon, will this be an issue?what would be the best AI to take during this cycle, if I started to notise gyno?


----------



## Sylar

Macro said:


> http://www.afboard.com/forum/anabolic-discussion/31745-prami-success-story.html
> 
> http://www.afboard.com/forum/anabolic-discussion/30264-pramipexole-prolactin-suppression-prevention-vs-treatment-dosing.html
> 
> http://www.afboard.com/forum/anabolic-discussion/29551-prami-protocol.html
> 
> http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=2203276
> 
> note the 400% increase in GH


Nice board you have there mate.


----------



## Macro

thanks. Dopaminergics have long been overlooked in the bodybuilding community, and with the exceptions of cabergoline and bromocriptine (which are not all that widely known) there has been little delving in to this area. Prolactin suppression, is at least equal to estrogen suppression/management when it comes to moderating/avoiding sides.


----------



## Sylar

Macro said:


> thanks. Dopaminergics have long been overlooked in the bodybuilding community, and with the exceptions of cabergoline and bromocriptine (which are not all that widely known) there has been little delving in to this area. Prolactin suppression, is at least equal to estrogen suppression/management when it comes to moderating/avoiding sides.


Totally agree mate, although i don't run Dopaminergics on cycle, i do have Prami in my safe and wouldn't run a progestin without having it close to hand.


----------



## hackskii

Macro said:


> Prolactin suppression, is at least equal to estrogen suppression/management when it comes to moderating/avoiding sides.


Really?

I have never had a problem with prolactin on any cycle.

Prolactin suppression, is at least equal to estrogen supression sounds a bit reaching to me.

I thought lowering prolactin too low compromises immune function and puts the LH receptors at risk?

You are a smart guy macro but I dont see how you can just make that statement.

some of the other products look pretty cool.

That pregnanalone DHEA stuff looks interesting, and the alcohol one too.....


----------



## Macro

because prolactin is not essential, there are other hormones that can fill its pituitary role, including GH (which pramipexole elevates).

you underestimate the impact of prolactin, it is crucial in gynecomastia (its the primary factor in breast growth during pregnancy)

http://www.webmd.com/a-to-z-guides/prolactin-15129

New Evidence Of Prolactin's Possible Role In Breast Cancer Uncovered

ScienceDaily (Oct. 3, 2007) - Scientists at the Kimmel Cancer Center at Jefferson in Philadelphia have discovered new molecular evidence of the role of the hormone prolactin in breast cancer. They have found that prolactin, a pituitary hormone that normally stimulates breast development and milk production, initiates a new "signaling pathway" that may regulate the growth and survival of breast cancer cells.

The work, which appears this month in the journal Molecular Endocrinology, identifies the protein Jak1 as playing a key part in prolactin signaling in breast cancer. Jak1, which belongs to the cell growth-promoting tyrosine kinase class of enzymes, could represent a new drug target for treating breast cancer.

"In breast cancer cells, we found that Jak1 not only stimulates conventional prolactin signaling via proteins such as Stat5, but also that Jak1 recruited new signals, especially Stat3 and ERK," says Hallgeir Rui, M.D., Ph.D., professor of Cancer Biology at Jefferson Medical College of Thomas Jefferson University and principal investigator of the study. "Because Stat3 and ERK typically are considered tumor-promoting, inhibitors of Jak1 may become useful in breast cancer treatment."

Receptors for prolactin, have previously been shown to promote breast cancer cell growth, survival, and differentiation, Dr. Rui explains, through signaling pathways that involve activation of such proteins as Stat5, ERK, and Akt. Prolactin is also known toactivate Stat3, which has been implicated as an oncogene involved in cancer cell growth and survival. In the current study, when Jak1 protein expression was experimentally disrupted in breast cancer cells, prolactin signaling through Stat3 and ERK was completely blocked. Signaling through Stat5 and Akt was reduced but still present.

"Until now, prolactin was believed to signal only through Jak2 to mediate its effects," says Lynn Neilson, Ph.D., a postdoctoral fellow in the Department of Cancer Biology at Jefferson Medical College and first author of the study. "The unexpected finding that prolactin also activates Jak1 in breast cancer points to a mechanism in cancer cells that further promotes tumor cell growth."

Dr. Rui's laboratory currently is seeking to determine the role of Jak1 in breast cancer cell growth, survival, and invasion, which will be important for establishing the potential usefulness of Jak1 as a new drug target in patients. Prolactin is secreted by the pituitary gland, and important for milk production during lactation. Receptors for this hormone are present on a majority of breast cancers. Prolactin levels in blood are relatively unaffected by menopause, and breast cancer patients are exposed to the hormone across all age groups.

The study was funded by the National Institutes of Health and the Department of Defense.

----------------------------

A Role For Prolactin In Breast Cancer

ScienceDaily (Sep. 23, 1998) - Under normal circumstances, the hormone prolactin is responsible for stimulating breast tissue growth and differentiation at several times during a woman's life -- during puberty, pregnancy, and lactation. Unfortunately, it can also stimulate the growth of breast cancers that may arise, according to Charles V. Clevenger, MD, PhD, an assistant professor of pathology and laboratory medicine. Additionally, recent results from Clevenger's laboratory suggest that prolactin's role in the disease may be much greater than previously thought.

Scientists examining breast cancer tissues in the past estimated that between 20 and 60 percent of these cancers expressed the receptor for prolactin, meaning that they would be responsive to the stimulatory effects of the hormone. Using improved techniques, Clevenger's team has *found that a much higher proportion of breast cancers -- more than 95 percent -- express the prolactin receptor. Also, prolactin is known to be secreted by the pituitary gland, and for many years it was assumed that this gland was the only source for the hormone. Clevenger's laboratory, however, has shown that breast tissue itself produces prolactin in significant quantities. "Not only do most mammary tissues make their own prolactin, but so do most breast cancers," Clevenger notes. *

Coupled with the newly demonstrated prevalence of the prolactin receptor, the findings suggest that prolactin is likely serving to stimulate the growth of these cancers in most cases. While the news may not appear to be positive, it does present an opportunity for the development of important new therapies.

*"If we can find a way to block prolactin from binding to its receptor, we may be able to induce regression in breast tumors," Clevenger says. "They might stop growing, and they might even die."* And, unlike some other hormone-based therapies for breast cancer, such as the new drug herceptin, which is useful in only a minority of patients, treatments focusing on prolactin and its receptor would benefit the majority of women with breast cancers.


----------



## hackskii

Ok, and your point of a man taking something that blocks prolactin when prolactin isnt a problem with most men taking steroids is what exactally?

Last I checked in men breast cancer is very low.

Men with breast cancer average about 67 years old at the time of their diagnosis.

Only about 10 men in a million will develop breast cancer.

So, I hope you are not insinuating that men need to take something that blocks prolactin to avoid breast cancer.

I have never known any man to have breast cancer myself.

You are also extrapolating studies on women and using it on men.

I see it as pointless for a guy taking aromitizable steroids to take something that blocks prolactin.

As I said before, blocking prolcatin can put LH receptors at risk and compromise immune function, not something I would want to do at the end of a cycle potentially compromising recovery and also immune system being hammered by the use of gear.

I only know of one guy that has had high prolactin but that had nothing to do with steroids but yet a pituitary tumor.

Anyone just necking drugs in the hopes of preventing something, without blood work to confirm or deny its need is reckless IMO.

If a guy is taking large amounts of GH then yah, go for the prolactin supression, but chances are most guys will never need it.


----------



## Cap'n Beefy

hackskii said:


> Ok, and your point of a man taking something that blocks prolactin when prolactin isnt a problem with most men taking steroids is what exactally?
> 
> Last I checked in men breast cancer is very low.
> 
> Men with breast cancer average about 67 years old at the time of their diagnosis.
> 
> Only about 10 men in a million will develop breast cancer.
> 
> So, I hope you are not insinuating that men need to take something that blocks prolactin to avoid breast cancer.
> 
> I have never known any man to have breast cancer myself.
> 
> You are also extrapolating studies on women and using it on men.
> 
> I see it as pointless for a guy taking aromitizable steroids to take something that blocks prolactin.
> 
> As I said before, blocking prolcatin can put LH receptors at risk and compromise immune function, not something I would want to do at the end of a cycle potentially compromising recovery and also immune system being hammered by the use of gear.
> 
> I only know of one guy that has had high prolactin but that had nothing to do with steroids but yet a pituitary tumor.
> 
> Anyone just necking drugs in the hopes of preventing something, without blood work to confirm or deny its need is reckless IMO.
> 
> *If a guy is taking large amounts of GH then yah, go for the prolactin supression, but chances are most guys will never need it*.


What what what?? Explain please. Or did I miss something. :confused1:


----------



## hackskii

GH can actually cause gyno in men, and this would be prolactin mediated.

So, yah, cabaser would be warranted here.


----------



## Cap'n Beefy

https://www.theafstore.com/product.php?productid=8&cat=0&bestseller=Y

Any thoughts on this stuff??

It's pitched as something to help gyno disappear one fairly established.


----------



## hackskii

> https://www.theafstore.com/product.php?productid=8&cat=0&bestseller=Y
> 
> Any thoughts on this stuff??
> 
> It's pitched as something to help gyno disappear one fairly established.


I know of two anti-estrogen drugs that reverse gyno from personal experiance and from other dudes on this board.

Femara (Letrozole)

Arimidex (Anastrozole)

I have never used AIFM before and personally I dont like the idea of putting stuff on my skin, it is a pain in the butt not to mention you may come into contact with your spouse and there would be a chance of that rubbing off on her and that would not be cool.

2 to 3 applications a day, when one can take just one dose of either letro or adex, with no chance of conatact with your spouse?


----------



## Mrey1436114574

I developed gyno during puberty and got left with puffy nips (wearing tight/slim fitting t shirts is a bitch)

does anyone know of any good surgeons in the london area?

the price of the surgery is qute dear (£3500 uner general anaesthesia) i think its considerable less under local but only 1 or 2 surgeons will do it...

credit crunch n all...


----------



## Macro

hackskii said:


> Ok, and your point of a man taking something that blocks prolactin when prolactin isnt a problem with most men taking steroids is what exactally?


first, pramipexole and cabergoline dont block prolactin. They inhibit its synthesis, very big difference.

second,

elevated prolactin is a very common issue for men, especially for men taking steroids.

third, if you had read the studies it clearly stated that breast tissue itself produces prolactin (hence even with low levels of plasma prolactin, breast tissue can be producing amounts capable of agonizing tissue)

not sure why you are trying to argue this, since you clearly have only a rudimentary grasp of this topic and are making claims regarding prolactin suppression in adults that you cannot support.



hackskii said:


> I thought lowering prolactin too low compromises immune function and puts the LH receptors at risk?


 if you dont know for sure, dont argue as if you do, and since you "think" you know, it means that you dont. Just being straight with you.

and just to be clear, since you did not like the studies posted, in males...

Am J Pathol. 2008 Jan;172(1):194-202. Epub 2007 Dec 21.

*Prolactin drives estrogen receptor-alpha-dependent ductal expansion and synergizes with transforming growth factor-alpha to induce mammary tumors in males.*

*Arendt LM*, *Schuler LA*.

Cellular and Molecular Biology Program, School of Veterinary Medicine, University of Wisconsin, 2015 Linden Dr., Madison, WI 53706, USA.

Male breast cancer is rare and has been the focus of limited research. Although the etiology is unclear, conditions increasing circulating prolactin (PRL), as well as estrogen, increase the risk of tumorigenesis. We modeled exposure to elevated PRL in transgenic mice, using the mammary-selective, estrogen-insensitive promoter neu-related lipocalin (NRL), to drive PRL expression. Male NRL-PRL mice did not develop mammary tumors. However, in cooperation with the well-characterized oncogene transforming growth factor-alpha (TGF-alpha), PRL induced mammary tumors in 100% of male bitransgenic mice. Similar to disease in human males, these tumors expressed variable levels of estrogen receptor-alpha (ER-alpha) and androgen receptors. However, carcinogenesis was not responsive to testicular steroids because castration did not alter latency to tumor development or tumor ER-alpha expression. Interestingly, both NRL-TGF-alpha/PRL and NRL-PRL males demonstrated increased ductal development, which occurred during puberty, similar to female mice. This outgrowth was diminished in NRL-PRL males treated with ICI 182,780, suggesting that PRL enhances ER-mediated growth. Treatment of MCF-7-derived cells with PRL increased phosphorylation of ER-alpha at residues implicated in unliganded ER-alpha activity. Together, these studies suggest that PRL expands the pool of cells susceptible to tumorigenesis, which is then facilitated by PRL and TGF-alpha cross talk. Activation of ER-alpha is one mechanism by which PRL may contribute to breast cancer and points to other therapeutic strategies for male patients.

AND THE WHOLE POINT OF POSTING THE STUDIES, MALE OR FEMALE WAS TO SHOW THE *IMPORTANCE OF PROLACTIN IN BREAST DEVELOPMENT* NOT NECESSARILY IN BREAST CANCER

Since you bring up immune response, elevated prolactin is linked to diabetes, lupus and a host of other autoimmune diseases.

btw- how exactly do you know that you have not had prolactin issues? you indeed may not have, yet. Just curious how you "know"?

prolactin PLASMA issues are most common in pubertal males and aging males, also in males with prolactinomans, adenomas, etc. Males using SSRI's and other anti-depressants will also have elevated levels typically.

In men with gynecomastia, including but not limited to hard central glandular tissue, local prolactin production is generally elevated (even if plasma levels are not).

Prolactin is essential for and drives ductal development, its a prominent factor in gynecomastia as well as a dominant factor in mood and sexual side effects of anabolic steroids.


----------



## Macro

hackskii said:


> I know of two anti-estrogen drugs that reverse gyno from personal experiance and from other dudes on this board.
> 
> Femara (Letrozole)
> 
> Arimidex (Anastrozole)
> 
> I have never used AIFM before


AROMATASE INHIBITORS, and aromasin/exemestane is certainly more effective than anastrozole as well as better tolerated.

unless you have used AIFM, you probably should refrain from making comments on its efficacy (which you sort of did). Though you are correct that generally twice a day applications are needed for optimal effects, and there is possibility of transference (though generally minimal and requiring vigourous direct contact once its dry). AIFM does have the benefit of allowing for direct local application, where there is some additional effect (how much varies, more significant in some persons than others, likely due to tissue characteristics). And why generally one application per day in those with gynecomastia, is directly to the affected area. Dermal application can be more work, so that is a valid issue (though most people seem quite fine with it).

and letrozole comes with its own issues, though agree that it does suppress estrogen more so than the others.

Can say that generally most will find AIFM more effective than anastrozole and with less side effects. if you like can go into the issues that that competitive inhibitors presents, as well as the impacts of tissue affinity on suppression profile.


----------



## stevebaker

Mrey said:


> I developed gyno during puberty and got left with puffy nips (wearing tight/slim fitting t shirts is a bitch)
> 
> does anyone know of any good surgeons in the london area?
> 
> the price of the surgery is qute dear (£3500 uner general anaesthesia) i think its considerable less under local but only 1 or 2 surgeons will do it...
> 
> credit crunch n all...


Try this site, you may find it helpful for finding surgeons etc

http://www.gynecomastia.org/smf/index.php?board=20.0


----------



## Mrey1436114574

stevebaker said:


> Try this site, you may find it helpful for finding surgeons etc
> 
> http://www.gynecomastia.org/smf/index.php?board=20.0


thanks mate:thumb:


----------



## hackskii

Macro, I am really not trying to argue anything.

Two things, you are pushing two products that clearly you are either in making money off of and or designed the delivery system and therefore appear biased in your responces.

On another thread where the guy has had ED issues, you suggest both of your anti-estrogen product and the prolactin suppression product prior to even knowing if he has any issues with these hormones.

Actually he doesn't, as evidence from his last blood test.

Suggesting that guy to take something to lower his hormones he has no problems with is putting it mildly a bit irresponsible.

Now with that said, you not only endorse, yet encourage your products regardless of the drugs being used.

You are speaking to a demographic of younger men that probably won't have a problem with prolactin, yet encourage them to take your products.

I don't call this responsible actually.

How do I know I don't have prolactin issues?

Simple, it is called a blood test.

I do believe in estrogen maintenance when using aromitizable steroids.

I have talked to Swale and he said he has not seen elevations in prolactin in men even on tren or deca. Now I assume it can happen, but honestly although you speak intelligent I doubt you have the blood tests that swale does and considering he deals with many men using steroids I would have to take his word for this one over yours.

When I said "I thought lowering prolactin too low compromises immune function and puts the LH receptors at risk?"

You said: 'if you dont know for sure, dont argue as if you do, and since you "think" you know, it means that you dont. Just being straight with you."

I made that statement as more of a question for you to address which by the way you never did and that statement I posted came quote word for word from swale.

So, if you have an issue with that, then take it up with a hormone replacement doctor and tell them that they are wrong.

The knowing for sure was more of a question for you to address and if It came from swale then I will say that statement is true.

Grabbing studies on women and rats to validate your argument which by the way does not fit the demographic of anyone on this board including myself (50 years old), yet alone the statistics to warrant the products you are selling should be used as suggested by you, again is a bit reckless.

Appears a bit of a profiteer here, I stand to lose nothing.

You stand to lose something.

Male breast cancer is rare and has been the focus of limited research.

OK, so why all the fuss on pushing a product that inhibits prolactin when the research does not suggest it should be inhibited in young men?

Why would you be suggesting others to use something that lowers prolactin when prolactin may not be a problem at all?

You say prolactin is a big problem with men taking steroids.

If Swale says this is not the case or he has not seen this then how did you come to this conclusion?

Is it perhaps because you stand to make some money from this?

I don't know, if you look at men's blood work then please share, but I have seen other men's blood work and prolactin is not an issue.

I am not arguing with you for the sake of argument, but you suggest AIFM is as good as other products but I have not heard of one person using it.

Also, I am not happy with Aromasin and although 12.5mg a day isn't enough to take some slight pain away from my right nipple, yet .5mg adex EOD is enough.

Dose for dose (1/2 dose), I am not happy with Aromasin.

Letro is too strong for me and I don't like the sides.

As stated above I have only known two anti-estrogens to reverse gyno in the guys here on the board and with me, and Aromasin, and AIFM are not one of them.

Sorry, you can argue that they are just as good but no evidence in reversal of gyno in men on this board.

Also, transference should be an issue with men especially when they have wives and during sex, last I checked there is a lot of skin on skin going on&#8230;.lol

Your product may be nice, but I don't know of anyone who has used it, so although there is probably evidence some where else, it certainly is not on this board.

I never said your product didn't work; I did say what products have worked, so how ever you take that, this is on you.

Nothing personal here.

So, one last question here:

Does lowering prolactin too low put LH receptors at risk and also compromise immune function?

Tell you what, I am on a cycle right now, and ironically I just ran out of Aromasin today, and will buy your product. I will use it as recommended and also right on the nipple, if it does not work, I will for sure tell the board it is crap, if it does work, then I will tell the board that it does in fact work and will endorse your product.

Deal?

I take it you ship to the states or have another distributor domestic?


----------



## Macro

hackskii said:


> So, one last question here:
> 
> Does lowering prolactin too low put LH receptors at risk and also compromise immune function?


no. Doing so during neonatal development may as well as negatively affect neurological development (as was mentioned). However, since the PRL can be activated by other pituitary ligands, in many cases more beneficially, its likely a non issue there.

there is a reason that so much of the literature asks the question, why do males produce prolactin?... the only real answer is that because males are just an "adjusted" female template, its a carry over of a reproductive system that is not present (but the underlying hormonal template, to a lesser extent, is). People always look to estrogen as the "bad guy" but prolactin is both a cofactor and driving agent for many of the issues associated with estrogen, gynecomastia in particular but also with respect to mood and libido issues.

as a note- have been reccomending dopaminergics long before they were widely available in the US. Have been experimenting with them for well over a decade.

Was among the first to reccomend selegiline (mao-i- B) (though primarily for nootropic purposes)

Was the first to reccomend cabergoline (D2/D3 agonist) for treatment and prevention of gynecomastia from trenbolone and nandrolone as well as a mediator of their sexual side effects.

Was first to reccomend pramipexole, because actually did the research into this overlooked D3/D2 agonist.

As far as AIFM, its quite effective, its not as well known on the UK boards (though it is available there). Though expect thats a matter of time. Would not say that it was effective, if it were not. DO take some pride in the development of the delivery system, however have been on the forums too long and spent too much time fighting against myths and misconceptions to waste time getting behind something that was not effective. Not to say that AIFM does not have its caveats, but the benefits of this non-methylated suicidal inhibitor and the benefits of local admin are worthwhile of consideration for use.

while you may not have responded to aromasin/exemestane that does not mean that most others will not. arimidex is more effective in endogenous estrone over producers, adrenal and gonadal, so you likely fall into that category. However it may also have been a function of the aromasin that you used? tablets? research? taken with high fat meal?


----------



## alex.p

Would I be right in saying then that if existing gyno may have been caused by a nandrolone and letro hasn't worked to remove/reduce it then something like cabergoline would possibly do the trick??


----------



## Macro

just to be clear, exemestane, cabergoline and pramipexole are pharmaceuticals. You seemed to throw in their reccomendation with AIFM (which is technically OTC).

And regardless of blood panels, and did not see the numbers but can say with certainty that they were not "good or fine". Just because something is within the "normal range" does not mean that its causing issues. Most doctors will agree that anything over 10 for prolactin in men is causing issues (even though 15-17 is within range). IMHO anything over 2-3 makes you less than you can be. Not to mention that daytime prolactin levels are only a moderately relevant measure, its nocturnal prolactin surges that present the greatest problem (and why prolactin issues often go undiagnosed)


----------



## Macro

alex.p said:


> Would I be right in saying then that if existing gyno may have been caused by a nandrolone and letro hasn't worked to remove/reduce it then something like cabergoline would possibly do the trick??


yes. generally reccomend aromasin + cabergoline or pramipexole. Single avenue treatments, even when that avenue is the primary factor, are less effective. Also generally reccomend moderating insulin spikes and at least a modest calorie deficit when treating gynecomastia.

note- letrozole and arimidex are also options (would lean to letro over dex), if you generally respond well or better to them.


----------



## hackskii

Macro said:


> no. Doing so during neonatal development may as well as negatively affect neurological development (as was mentioned). However, since the PRL can be activated by other pituitary ligands, in many cases more beneficially, its likely a non issue there.
> 
> there is a reason that so much of the literature asks the question, why do males produce prolactin?... the only real answer is that because males are just an "adjusted" female template, its a carry over of a reproductive system that is not present (but the underlying hormonal template, to a lesser extent, is). People always look to estrogen as the "bad guy" but prolactin is both a cofactor and driving agent for many of the issues associated with estrogen, gynecomastia in particular but also with respect to mood and libido issues.
> 
> as a note- have been reccomending dopaminergics long before they were widely available in the US. Have been experimenting with them for well over a decade.
> 
> Was among the first to reccomend selegiline (mao-i- B) (though primarily for nootropic purposes)
> 
> Was the first to reccomend cabergoline (D2/D3 agonist) for treatment and prevention of gynecomastia from trenbolone and nandrolone as well as a mediator of their sexual side effects.
> 
> Was first to reccomend pramipexole, because actually did the research into this overlooked D3/D2 agonist.
> 
> As far as AIFM, its quite effective, its not as well known on the UK boards (though it is available there). Though expect thats a matter of time. Would not say that it was effective, if it were not. DO take some pride in the development of the delivery system, however have been on the forums too long and spent too much time fighting against myths and misconceptions to waste time getting behind something that was not effective. Not to say that AIFM does not have its caveats, but the benefits of this non-methylated suicidal inhibitor and the benefits of local admin are worthwhile of consideration for use.
> 
> while you may not have responded to aromasin/exemestane that does not mean that most others will not. arimidex is more effective in endogenous estrone over producers, adrenal and gonadal, so you likely fall into that category. However it may also have been a function of the aromasin that you used? tablets? research? taken with high fat meal?


My aromasin was research stuff, so that very well may be the reason why I dont find it that effective.

I take it on an empty stomach, but I do drink coffee later with quite a bit of cream. Not sure if that would effect it.

I just bought some of the AIFM off of your site, along with Sesapure/Glucorell Combo, and some P7 and Mood Enhancers.

I got that for the chick, she is going through menopause and although I am pretty happy by nature, she can be somewhat not too nice at times.

I actually am looking fwd to the AIFM and will put it right on the nipple and use it as directed.

I will let you know how that works out, many of the research stuff taste rank anyway.

While I am at it, I have a question for you.

Due to aromatase enzyme has a higher concintration in the belly fat, would AIFM be better applied to the belly?

Would that have a bigger bang for the buck in that location?

I know testosterone creams/gels, when make contact with hair follicles tend to elivate DHT, I was also wondering if there was any negative responce with hair follicles, or anything else?

I am assuming the application is on the thin skin on the inner upper arm?



Macro said:


> just to be clear, exemestane, cabergoline and pramipexole are pharmaceuticals. You seemed to throw in their reccomendation with AIFM (which is technically OTC).
> 
> And regardless of blood panels, and did not see the numbers but can say with certainty that they were not "good or fine". Just because something is within the "normal range" does not mean that its causing issues. Most doctors will agree that anything over 10 for prolactin in men is causing issues (even though 15-17 is within range). IMHO anything over 2-3 makes you less than you can be. Not to mention that daytime prolactin levels are only a moderately relevant measure, its nocturnal prolactin surges that present the greatest problem (and why prolactin issues often go undiagnosed)


Macro, what are some of the signs of higher or even normal ranges of prolactin?

I am assuming more belly fat, lower T production, longer refractory periods, and less libido, mood issues, lactating nipples?

Are there any more?

With the exception of a bit more bellyfat, I dont have any of those symptoms.

Any over the counter prolacin inhibitors around?

I think it was B-6 or something, cant remember (Im old.)


----------



## Bulkamania

I've got a question that I doubt anyone can actually answer, I'd just like opinions.

I've had gyno for about 3 years now, and yes it is gyno, solid lumps underneath both nipples.

I've had it since I was 14, I'm now 17. What do you think the chances are that it will go on it's own? Doesn't it usually go away within like 2 years?

It's not exactly bad gyno, pretty minor but it is noticable, my friends have actually noticed it through one of my tops before.

I think I'm going to book an appointment to see my doctor about it, perhaps he might give me something. It does actually get in the way of love life tbh, as it's quite embarresing and I'd hate for a girl to notice it. It definatly gets me down.

Thaughts please?

Cheers guys.


----------



## pecman

Here is a question for ya, how come i get bad Gyno when i'm on as little as 300ml test a wk and feel like a girl, felt really emotional:confused1:

Got long strands of fibre tissue under the nipples,Got very sore to touch and puffy, but when i come off it completely goes and i mean all of it, the fibre lumps puffy ness the lot all gone, so how come :confused1:

I'm thinking of running tren next so will have to run an AI like adex from the start.


----------



## Macro

pecman said:


> Here is a question for ya, how come i get bad Gyno when i'm on as little as 300ml test a wk and feel like a girl, felt really emotional:confused1:
> 
> Got long strands of fibre tissue under the nipples,Got very sore to touch and puffy, but when i come off it completely goes and i mean all of it, the fibre lumps puffy ness the lot all gone, so how come :confused1:
> 
> I'm thinking of running tren next so will have to run an AI like adex from the start.


you have high levels of aromatase, perhaps due to genetics or perhaps because of age or environmental factors.

the reasons for regression could be several fold, perhaps binding proteins or DHT ratios. Likely you experience high peripheral test conversion with higher doses (not seen with your own endogenous levels).

you should stick to aromasin/exemestane.

now could also be due to prolactin elevations, particularly given your description. in that case, would say that secondary DHT pathway, 3-beta diol in particular may be upregulated.


----------



## pecman

Macro ,Thanks for the great reply bud, could you explain that more in leymans terms so i could understand it more..

Is what you said good or bad:confused1:



> you have high levels of aromatase, perhaps due to genetics or perhaps because of age or environmental factors


I'm 33 and i would say i have quite good genetics, could you explain more?



> the reasons for regression could be several fold, perhaps binding proteins or DHT ratios. Likely you experience high peripheral test conversion with higher doses (not seen with your own endogenous levels).


Is this what is causing the emotion at such low doses?



> now could also be due to prolactin elevations, particularly given your description. in that case, would say that secondary DHT pathway, 3-beta diol in particular may be upregulated


 :confused1:

Sorry for being a dum ass


----------



## pecman

BUMP :bounce:


----------



## Macro

pecman said:


> Macro ,Thanks for the great reply bud, could you explain that more in leymans terms so i could understand it more..
> 
> Is what you said good or bad:confused1:
> 
> I'm 33 and i would say i have quite good genetics, could you explain more?
> 
> Is this what is causing the emotion at such low doses?
> 
> :confused1:
> 
> Sorry for being a dum ass


from a gyno standpoint, its bad

good genetics can mean that while you produce higher levels of aromatase and/or prolactin that you do not experience the same level of negative feedback that other people do *OR *it may be that you are only producing high local levels of estrogen and prolactin (gyno tissue itself can produce significant aromatase as well as synthesize prolactin). The latter seems less likely because of the emotionalness you described.

Possibly aromatase conversion of your exogenous testosterone to estrogen with less conversion to DHT. its hard to say, one possibility is that with your normal levels of testosterone you produce enough DHT to modulate Estrogen Receptor activity, when you raise your test by adding exogenous test you get little or no additional conversion to DHT.

OR you produce more DHT and that excess DHT is metabolized through the 3betahsd pathways producing more of the very potent (estrogen and androgen) 3-beta-diol.

regardless of which it is. Aromatase inhibitor (reccomend exemestane or AIFM- exemestane is not as available in the UK, it will likely have to be shipped from states- AIFM is available in the UK (london).) and really also, because of the ductal expansion, you should be using a dopaminergic to suppress prolactin (pramipexole or cabaser).

using on cycle will generally prevent issues and (if cutting) can help regress tissue (though depends on what you are using- if using progestins- a lot of regression is less likely-- though still possible).

use off cycle, again with calorie deficit, is generally quite effective in regressing tissue- you should be able to regress fully.


----------



## Macro

hackskii said:


> My aromasin was research stuff, so that very well may be the reason why I dont find it that effective.
> 
> I take it on an empty stomach, but I do drink coffee later with quite a bit of cream. Not sure if that would effect it.
> 
> I just bought some of the AIFM off of your site, along with Sesapure/Glucorell Combo, and some P7 and Mood Enhancers.
> 
> I got that for the chick, she is going through menopause and although I am pretty happy by nature, she can be somewhat not too nice at times.
> 
> I actually am looking fwd to the AIFM and will put it right on the nipple and use it as directed.
> 
> I will let you know how that works out, many of the research stuff taste rank anyway.
> 
> While I am at it, I have a question for you.
> 
> Due to aromatase enzyme has a higher concintration in the belly fat, would AIFM be better applied to the belly?
> 
> Would that have a bigger bang for the buck in that location?
> 
> I know testosterone creams/gels, when make contact with hair follicles tend to elivate DHT, I was also wondering if there was any negative responce with hair follicles, or anything else?
> 
> I am assuming the application is on the thin skin on the inner upper arm?
> 
> Macro, what are some of the signs of higher or even normal ranges of prolactin?
> 
> I am assuming more belly fat, lower T production, longer refractory periods, and less libido, mood issues, lactating nipples?
> 
> Are there any more?
> 
> With the exception of a bit more bellyfat, I dont have any of those symptoms.
> 
> Any over the counter prolacin inhibitors around?
> 
> I think it was B-6 or something, cant remember (Im old.)


1. exemestane should be taken with a high fat meal. increases plasma levels by up to 40%.

2. look forward to both her and your feedback

3. aromatase is produced in higher concentrations in soft estrogenic fat, often referred to as stubborn fat due to the negative impact of alpha 2 adrenoceptor upregulation that is present in this type of adipose tissue, belly fat is quite often insulogenic or androgenic in nature (though it varies). you can apply there, but along the outside (riblets and even upper love hand area, is generally thinner skin--also less likely to result in transference to your SO).

3a.speaking of which, applying before sleep (not bed- if you are knockin boots-) and after AM shower are usually the best times to apply. Once daily is OK, but generally reccomend AM PM for best results. Only apply to chest 5 days a week and only one of your applications (am or pm) also its reccomended that you not use any site more than 5 days in a row-- as in sensitive persons this can cause rash- its not common but site rotation significantly alleviates the risk of occurence (again, its minimal but annoying and can lead to not being able to use AIFM-- and you would be surprised how much having to give AIFM up is to some people, and the lengths they will go to, to be able to.)

4. no negative impact on follicles, though its possible that there might be some increase in local DHT production, because of local aromatase suppression, however no notable reports of this.

5. inner forearm, upper arm are good sites, top of feet is good (if just before bed-- dont reccomend during day- have had people that wore heavy work boots in 115+ degree heat that had issues because of it)- thus while it was situational, reccomendation is - no day time application to top of feet.

6. those are the common prolactin sides, excessive immune response is another- prolactin is highly linked to autoimmune diseases. (this goes back to your earlier point, and another reason why prolactin is generally considered a bad actor)-- not counting the links to prostate and breast cancer and a host of other issues, even acne has strong links to prolactin, particularly when estrogen is not as involved-- DHT just makes the process go along-- its not the progenitor.

7. b-6 is relatively worthless for prolactin suppression, and it does this in cell models by suppressing the ER, of course it suppresses the AR even more. not a good thing. and because its rapidly excreted, pretty much a non starter.


----------



## hackskii

Wow, heavy post.

I will get all the stuff today (I checked the tracking).

I will be interested to try the AIFM, I already am on cycle and I ran out of the aromasin, and now the nipple has some pain, but no lumps.

I will let you know just what happens with its use.

It was fairly cheap too.

The mood stuff I am interested in too, I am going through a bunch of things from a house refinance, to debt consolidation, to full solar panel installation for free electricity.

So, right now I got alot on my plate, I was kind of stressed out jumping through all the financial hoops and right now, things are moving so slow.

Seems there was a rush of refinances and this is a waiting game.

Not too worried, my credit is better than most.

But, every time my loan guy calls me I have to sign something else and fax it back to him.

That and my energy provider SCE I have to set everything up with them for the solar panel installation, way too many hoops to jump through on that one but they are giving me thousands to install, so all the dots have to be there and all the T's have to be crossed just right.

Thanks for the info Macro, I will keep you informed on all the stuff I bought.

I kind of like experimenting on myself it is kind of fun.

Good think the AIFM will be here today, not sure how much longer I can stand this pain in my nipple and wondering if the lump will come back.....

A dude slapped my chest at work yesterday and I felt a sudden pain, last time someone did that it flaired up a lump.

Well, he actually twisted my tittie and that fired it up......I could have slapped him for that.....He didnt know I was on cycle though...lol


----------



## Sylar

How are you getting with the AIFM, Scott?

I see you ran out of Aromasin a week or so ago, were you using any other AI when you were waiting for the AIFM to arrive?


----------



## hackskii

AIFM arrived 3 days ago but I only used two pumps yesterday on the nipple and surrounding area and today 2 pumps.

Still got a little bit of pain there so I may have to use it twice a day.

I am rather upset at work, seems someone called ethics on me for going to the gym at lunch (company gym), and said I am not returning after lunch.

That is utter BS, I am in the plant after lunch and I never take off.

I might not get back to my work area immediatly, but most people dont, I am in the plant and not outside.

So, my boss had a talk with me today.

He said he took care of it, but hell, bunch of fcuking babies around here.

I think I know who did it, we dont get along, but he is some kind of control freak, and he is in another department stiring up crap for others.

He has some serious issues, he is known for tattling on others and nobody likes him for that reason.


----------



## Sylar

hackskii said:


> AIFM arrived 3 days ago but I only used two pumps yesterday on the nipple and surrounding area and today 2 pumps.
> 
> Still got a little bit of pain there so I may have to use it twice a day.
> 
> I am rather upset at work, seems someone called ethics on me for going to the gym at lunch (company gym), and said I am not returning after lunch.
> 
> That is utter BS, I am in the plant after lunch and I never take off.
> 
> I might not get back to my work area immediatly, but most people dont, I am in the plant and not outside.
> 
> So, my boss had a talk with me today.
> 
> He said he took care of it, but hell, bunch of fcuking babies around here.
> 
> I think I know who did it, we dont get along, but he is some kind of control freak, and he is in another department stiring up crap for others.
> 
> He has some serious issues, he is known for tattling on others and nobody likes him for that reason.


Bloody skiver... :whistling: :whistling:


----------



## Macro

hackskii, how is that going?


----------



## Goose

Im a tad worried I may have gyno but then reading this pretty much clears up I don't in a way. My nipples arn't sore one but, i dont have any direct lumps under the nipple.Yet I do have that puffy nipple look, which I have had for as long as I know but does make me think could this be gyno. Someone said earlier in the thread that it could be onset teen gyno? Is this something I just have to put up with as its part of my make-up?


----------



## hackskii

It isnt going too bad. I notice that 4 pumps a day keeps the pain in the nipple away, or almost, 5 would do it for sure.

I keep forgetting though.

I have had zero problems with irritation what so ever, I actually like the smell.

I have been taking those supplements to help regulate blood sugars and I have actually been losing weight, while not really trying to.

I would suspect it would take a good amount to reverse gyno though, If I know I cant take some later on, I do 3 pumps in the morning after a shower.

I am just getting the dosing adjusted right now, I will keep you posted.


----------



## Macro

because of the nature of topicals/transdermals its important to exfoliate (body scrub, loofah, etc) to remove dead skin. Also important to apply to clean skin, so using soaps that leave residues (like traditional soap) can reduce uptake. neutrogena body wash (unscented) is a good choice and anti-bacterial as well.

actually fixing blood sugar issues is in itself also beneficial (insulin and associated hormones are "pro-factors" in gynecomastia development as well as in sustaining it).

calorie deficit is always good, because less nutrients means less hormones and more potential for apoptosis of tissue (cell death).


----------



## hackskii

Only problem with that is I have been applying it to the nipple area that is in question, I cant lufa that area, it already is sensitive.

I use Dove soap (no flames guys  ), which may be part of the problem in itself.

The package suggested exfoliating with witch hazle, wonder if that is good?


----------



## Bluestorm

Macro said:


> ...elevated prolactin is a very common issue for men, especially for men taking steroids.
> 
> ...not sure why you are trying to argue this, since you clearly have only a rudimentary grasp of this topic and are making claims regarding prolactin suppression in adults that you cannot support.


If you eliminate estrogen, it will eliminate prolactin issues...would it not? Isn't the bigger issue with Gyno always going to be estrogen? Prolactin can not cause gyno in the absence of estrogen.

Macro, what is your take on the claim that Nandrolone and Trenbolone cause prolactin issues when used as a standalone compound? Scientific literature shows that androgens actually lower prolactin. Yet, it is widely advised to use cabergoline almost anytime someone is running either.

I'm certainly not trying to argue with you and definitely not looking to get into a p!ss!ng match on what I do and do not know or think. You seem to know a lot on the subject, so I wanted to get your take on it all.


----------



## Sylar

Bluestorm said:


> If you eliminate estrogen, it will eliminate prolactin issues...would it not? Isn't the bigger issue with Gyno always going to be estrogen? Prolactin can not cause gyno in the absence of estrogen.


Think you're confusing Prolactin with Progesterone mate. Oestrogen has been shown to up-regulate PRL-R mRNA and its protein - But so does Progestin. You can suppress oestrogen until your d1ck stops working and your wife leaves you, still wont be an effective way at preventing/reversing prolactin induced gyno when running progestins.

Suppressing oestrogen is not a 100% fail proof way of preventing progestagenic activity either. Does help though IMO.

When it comes to preventing/reversing Prolactin induced gyno, a Dopaminergic like Pramipexole, Cabergoline etc wins hands down - Nothing comes else close.


----------



## Macro

Bluestorm said:


> If you eliminate estrogen, it will eliminate prolactin issues...would it not? Isn't the bigger issue with Gyno always going to be estrogen? Prolactin can not cause gyno in the absence of estrogen.
> 
> Macro, what is your take on the claim that Nandrolone and Trenbolone cause prolactin issues when used as a standalone compound? Scientific literature shows that androgens actually lower prolactin. Yet, it is widely advised to use cabergoline almost anytime someone is running either.
> 
> I'm certainly not trying to argue with you and definitely not looking to get into a p!ss!ng match on what I do and do not know or think. You seem to know a lot on the subject, so I wanted to get your take on it all.


1st you cannot eliminate estrogen

2nd lowering estrogen should lower prolactin, but not necessarily. in fact lowering estrogen can under the right influences actually raise prolactin and/or PRLR binding and/or PRLR expression and/or activation. any or all of which will aggravate gynecomastia. much of this is related to eralpha/erbeta

no. while estrogen is certainly needed to form normal breast tissue. And while it is the usual suspect (at least primary- usually its several hormones causing aggravation). even with near nil plasma estrogen, local estrogen synthesis may still be high (ie within and surrounding breast tissue). even when thats not the case, plenty of compounds including prolactin can bind to eralpha or bind to allosteric sites. still not sure how so few people realize what whores ligands can be and how ratios of other agonist as well as concentrations (ie high) of a ligand leads to "spill" over binding. Also once estrogen fullfills its role in developing the base gyno tissue (which most people have or even have as fairly developed ductal or glandular tissue) high estrogen is not as essential to proliferation of that tissue.

they do cause gynecomastia (or at least aggravate it). they are progestins (and whores as well). keeping in mind, once again, its the actions within the system are determined by receptor isoform variants, receptor subtype ratios, as well as ratios of those receptors to others, among several hundred other factors. ie. tamoxifen in tissue with higher erbeta-eralpha ratio = antagonist. tamoxifen in tissue with higher eralpha-erbeta ratio = agonist. though if poor binding to erbeta isoform= may be primary agonist. of course there are many other things that will determine that action. JUST TO BE CLEAR, METABOLITES NOT THROUGH AROMATASE, CAN ALSO BE POTENT ESTROGEN RECEPTOR AGONISTS OR *ALLOSTERIC ACTIVATORS OR EVEN DOWNSTREAM PROMOTORS* (totally overlooked by most)

actually androgens, primarily DHT which is what most of the research is on, can both lower and raise prolactin. Though that is considered to be modulatory (allosteric binding) action on eralpha (at least with DHT). nandrolone and trenbolone are progestins with androgenic activity- they also have progestagenic activity- research shows that progestins generally raise prolactin or PRLR expression/activation (see below). *and what really matters is if they raise local synthesis of prolactin, since that has the greatest impact on gynecomastia.*

its widely advised *BECAUSE IT WORKS*. cabergoline and pramipexole are both effective at preventing and treating issues that arise from progestins. that can be said with certainty and really, while the scientific underpinnings are interesting, the are somewhat irrellevant to the end user. For whom what matter is results.

Biol Reprod. 1989 Jun;40(6):1201-7. Links

*Antagonism of estrogen-induced prolactin release by dihydrotestosterone.*

*Brann DW*, *Putnam CD*, *Mahesh VB*.

Department of Physiology and Endocrinology, Medical College of Georgia, Augusta 30912-3000.

Previous work from our laboratory has demonstrated that progesterone can inhibit estrogen-induced prolactin release in female rats. Since androgens have been reported to mimic progesterone actions in certain systems, and to antagonize estrogen action in rat uteri, the purpose of this study was to determine whether androgens, like progestins, can inhibit estrogen-induced prolactin release. The ovariectomized (26 days of age) immature rat was used as the model for analysis of this question. Dihydrotestosterone (DHT) was chosen to be used throughout the study since it does not undergo aromatization to estrogens. In response to estradiol exposure (2 micrograms/rat), prolactin release reached peak values at 12 h and returned to control levels by 24 h. A second injection of estradiol 13 h after its initial injection stimulated a second increase in serum prolactin at 25 h. A single injection of DHT (0.8 mg/kg BW) 1 h before the second estradiol injection blocked the increase in serum prolactin. *DHT had no effect on basal serum prolactin levels*. The DHT inhibition of estrogen-induced prolactin release required estrogen priming. A *dose dependency for the DHT effect was demonstrated*, with *low doses effective and high doses ineffective, in inhibiting estrogen action*. This effect of DHT seemed to be androgen receptor-mediated, since flutamide blocked the effect. However, the possibility of progestin receptor mediation could not be ruled out since RU486 also blocked DHT's effect. Flutamide was also effective in blocking progesterone's inhibition of estrogen-induced action. This is perhaps consistent with an overlap of activities in androgens and progestins reported by several investigators.(

*: *Int J Cancer. 1992 Mar 12;50(5):777-82. Links

*Androgen regulation of prolactin-receptor gene expression in MCF-7 and MDA-MB-453 human breast cancer cells.*

*Ormandy CJ*, *Clarke CL*, *Kelly PA*, *Sutherland RL*.

Cancer Biology Division, Garvan Institute of Medical Research, St. Vincent's Hospital, Sydney, Australia.

Lactogenic hormones which bind to the PRLR are likely to be growth-stimulatory in human breast-cancer cells. Oestrogen and progesterone control cellular expression of the PRLR; however, elevated androgen levels in some breast-cancer patients raised the possibility that androgens may also influence breast-cancer sensitivity to lactogenic hormones. This study investigated whether androgens could affect expression of the PRLR in the MCF-7 breast-cancer cell line. PRLR binding activity was increased approximately 2-fold by treatment for 24 hr with 10 nM R1881, TEST, DHT, MPA and ORG 2058. Northern analysis indicated that DHT also increased the level of PRLR mRNA. The antiprogesterone, RU 38486, displaced tritiated ORG 2058 binding but not tritiated DHT binding to MCF-7 cells; it completely antagonized ORG 2058 and partially antagonized R1881 induction of the PRLR, but had no effect on induction by DHT. The anti-androgen, RU 23908, displaced tritiated DHT binding but not tritiated ORG 2058 binding, and antagonized DHT and R1881 induction of PRLR but not induction of the PRLR by ORG 2058. These data indicated that *ORG 2058 acting via the PR and DHT acting via the AR were able to induce PRLR expression* in MCF-7 cells. In MDA-MB-453 cells, which express the AR but not the ER or PR, *DHT and R1881 increased PRLR binding to 150% of control values at 0.1 nM. ORG 2058 was ineffective, demonstrating androgen induction of PRLR **in the absence of PR and ER*. These data indicate that PRLR can be regulated by androgens in MCF-7 and MDA-MB-453 human breast-cancer cells.

DNA Cell Biol. 1992 Dec;11(10):721-6. Links

*The effect of progestins on prolactin receptor gene transcription in human breast cancer cells.*

*Ormandy CJ*, *Graham J*, *Kelly PA*, *Clarke CL*, *Sutherland RL*.

Cancer Biology Division, Garvan Institute of Medical Research, St. Vincent's Hospital, Sydney, N.S.W., Australia.

The sex steroid hormone progesterone modulates the developmental and lactogenic activity of prolactin in the mammary gland. Regulation of the level of prolactin receptor (PRLR) provides one possible mechanism by which this may occur, prompting this investigation of the molecular mechanisms involved in progestin regulation of prolactin receptor levels. Treatment of T-47D and MCF-7 human breast cancer cells with 10 nM of the synthetic progestin ORG 2058 for 24 hr resulted in an increase in all four PRLR mRNA transcripts detected. The effect of ORG 2058 was shown in T-47D cells to be time- and concentration-dependent and resulted in an approximate two-fold increase in PRLR mRNA after 24 hr of treatment with 10 nM or 100 nM ORG 2058. Nuclear run-on assays indicated that ORG 2058 increased the rate of T-47D PRLR gene transcription at all times between 1 hr and 28 hr of treatment. The protein synthesis inhibitors cycloheximide and puromycin abrogated the induction of PRLR gene transcription at 1 hr and 2 hr, which demonstrated that on-going protein synthesis was required for the ORG 2058 effect and suggested that progestins may exert some transcriptional effects via the induction of an intermediary protein. These experiments demonstrated that progestin induced a transcriptionally based increase in PRLR gene expression and provided a mechanism by which progesterone may modulate the mitogenic activity of prolactin during mammary gland development

Histopathology. 2008 Jul;53(1):56-61. Links

*Prolactin receptor expression in gynaecomastia and male breast carcinoma.*

*Ferreira M*, *Mesquita M*, *Quaresma M*, *André S*.

Serviço de Anatomia Patológica, Instituto Português de Oncologia de Lisboa Francisco Gentil, EPE, Lisboa, Portugal. [email protected]

AIMS: Despite the well-established function of prolactin (PRL) in normal breast development, its role in breast cancer pathogenesis is still controversial. PRL activity is dependent on the activation of a transmembrane protein, the PRL receptor (PRLR). The aim was to evaluate and compare PRLR expression in gynaecomastia and male breast carcinoma (MBC). METHODS AND RESULTS: PRLR expression was detected immunohistochemically in 30 cases of gynaecomastia and 30 cases of MBC. The whole series was also assessed for oestrogen receptors (ER), progesterone receptors (PR) and androgen receptors (AR). A cut-off of 10% was used as the criterion for positivity. Histological type and tumour differentiation were evaluated. Pathological stage was assessed [Tumour Node Metastasis (TNM)-International Union Against Cancer system]. Statistical analysis was performed with Fisher's exact test. PRLR positivity was seen in 20% of gynaecomastia cases and in 60% of MBC cases (P = 0.003). In gynaecomastia immunoreactivity was predominantly observed in luminal cell borders, whereas in MBC the reactivity was heterogeneous and mainly cytoplasmic. There was no statistically significant correlation between PRLR expression and ER, PR, AR, pTNM, or histological grade. CONCLUSIONS: PRLR is significantly more expressed in MBC than in gynaecomastia, and with different patterns of reactivity, suggesting a role for PRL in male breast carcinogenesis.


----------



## Bluestorm

Nice. I certainly am not up to par with knowledge on Ligands. Good info.

But my question now; mammary tumours respond differently to hormonal stimuli, is it safe to assume that in a healthy individual, androgens will effect them the same.

"in fact lowering estrogen can under the right influences actually raise prolactin and/or PRLR binding and/or PRLR expression and/or activation."

Hate to be a pain in the glutes, but do you have any literature on this?

Sylar says "Oestrogen has been shown to up-regulate PRL-R mRNA and its protein - But so does Progestin." So in the absence of (or a very low level) of estrogen, progestins (progesterone) can increase prolactin?

Again, I am trying to understand this clearly. You certainly are one of the only people I have come across that has an in depth knowledge on the subject.

Thanks for your responses.


----------



## Bluestorm

Macro said:


> ...elevated prolactin is a very common issue for men, especially for men taking steroids.
> 
> ...if you had read the studies it clearly stated that breast tissue itself produces prolactin (hence even with low levels of plasma prolactin, breast tissue can be producing amounts capable of agonizing tissue)


----------



## Big Cat

Permit me to clarify what BS was saying. The issues of prolactin secreting carcinoma's is no secret. It is well documented. Its also well-documented that this is typical of malignant tissue. Just like DHT will for example raise TGFbeta1 in prostate cancer cell lines, while it will reduce that same cytokine in a healthy prostate; Moreover, this is quite specific to certain estrogen-dependent breast cancers, there are enough breast cancer cell lines that aren't even capable of producing prolactin.

All research over 50+ years has shown androgens to decrease prolactin. Its also not exclusive to non-progestin androgens, I just recently saw the bloodwork on a person taking deca exclusively at 800 mg a week for 10 weeks and 1g for another 2 weeks and saw a decrease in serum prolactin. So even if we were talking a local secretion in breast tissue you would be seeing a maintenance of plasma levels, and that is precluding the negative regulatory effect that deca and tren would have on prolactin secretion overall. The RBA for the AR of both these androgens far exceeds their RBA for the PR, and it also exceeds their estrogenic potential (Deca is quite estrogenic, and in a very unique way, admittedly, not treatable by standard anti-estrogens, and it still lowers prolactin, but tren is totally devoid of estrogenic activity). Both these steroids have their metabolites quite well documented (trenbolone only metabolizes to the standard excretion molecules with alteration at C3 and C17, with the major metabolite being 17a-OH-trenbolone), so estrogenic mediation by metabolites is not even an option.

even if throughout all of this you manage to find even the slightest way to see a prolactin mediation in an androgen primed environment, and document it, there is still the slight matter that prolactin cannot cause gyno in the absence of estrogen. The same applies to progestins. This would make a standard anti-estrogen treatment sufficient for treating gyno, since the prime catalyst estrogen is taken out of the equation by blocking the ER at the level of the mammary tissue.

I'm spelling this out one more time, because people tell me if anyone can show me any real evidence of prolactin gyno it would be you. I fear though that not even you can help me, since your presented evidence so far is merely in well-documented prolactin secreting tumor cell lines that are not applicable to healthy tissue (in fact the opposite since healthy tissue responds quite the opposite)

But hoping nonetheless your rebuttal will amaze me ...


----------



## Alve

do you guys think there is a non surgical way to get rid of gyno? (not caused by steroids) also do you know the differences between 'laser lipo' and regular liposuction, is one better than the other? my b/f is 13.5% and it seems impossible to shift the stubborn flab off my chest


----------



## hackskii

Big Cat said:


> Permit me to clarify what BS was saying. The issues of prolactin secreting carcinoma's is no secret. It is well documented. Its also well-documented that this is typical of malignant tissue. Just like DHT will for example raise TGFbeta1 in prostate cancer cell lines, while it will reduce that same cytokine in a healthy prostate; Moreover, this is quite specific to certain estrogen-dependent breast cancers, there are enough breast cancer cell lines that aren't even capable of producing prolactin.
> 
> All research over 50+ years has shown androgens to decrease prolactin. Its also not exclusive to non-progestin androgens, I just recently saw the bloodwork on a person taking deca exclusively at 800 mg a week for 10 weeks and 1g for another 2 weeks and saw a decrease in serum prolactin. So even if we were talking a local secretion in breast tissue you would be seeing a maintenance of plasma levels, and that is precluding the negative regulatory effect that deca and tren would have on prolactin secretion overall. The RBA for the AR of both these androgens far exceeds their RBA for the PR, and it also exceeds their estrogenic potential (Deca is quite estrogenic, and in a very unique way, admittedly, not treatable by standard anti-estrogens, and it still lowers prolactin, but tren is totally devoid of estrogenic activity). Both these steroids have their metabolites quite well documented (trenbolone only metabolizes to the standard excretion molecules with alteration at C3 and C17, with the major metabolite being 17a-OH-trenbolone), so estrogenic mediation by metabolites is not even an option.
> 
> even if throughout all of this you manage to find even the slightest way to see a prolactin mediation in an androgen primed environment, and document it, there is still the slight matter that prolactin cannot cause gyno in the absence of estrogen. The same applies to progestins. This would make a standard anti-estrogen treatment sufficient for treating gyno, since the prime catalyst estrogen is taken out of the equation by blocking the ER at the level of the mammary tissue.
> 
> I'm spelling this out one more time, because people tell me if anyone can show me any real evidence of prolactin gyno it would be you. I fear though that not even you can help me, since your presented evidence so far is merely in well-documented prolactin secreting tumor cell lines that are not applicable to healthy tissue (in fact the opposite since healthy tissue responds quite the opposite)
> 
> But hoping nonetheless your rebuttal will amaze me ...


Cool post.

Are you the same Big Cat that has done alot of steroid profiles?

Welcome to the board too..


----------



## Bluestorm

^Thats him Hackskii.


----------



## hackskii

Bluestorm said:


> ^Thats him Hackskii.


I thought as much judging by his writing style.

I like to read his work, very well put together.

TBH I talked to Swale about this (Swale knows Big Cat) and he suggested by his blood work that prolactin is no issue with tren and deca, and advised me long ago that cabaser is not needed with these drugs.

I have always felt that the DHT dirivitive drugs would be the choice along with an AI for progesterone related sides, DHT opposes progesterone.

that was my take anyway.

Looking fwd to reading more of his posts.

Welcome bluestorm and Big Cat.


----------



## Cap'n Beefy

A little insight that may be of interest to some of you guys. I reported earlier in this thread about having cured a lump with Tamoxifen, a lump which subsequently returned after a period of no oestrogen control, and then failed to respond to the previously successful 40mg daily of Tamoxifen.

Anywho, I changed the dosage to 10mg twice daily, doses spaced 12 hours apart (previously took it all in the morning), and would you believe it, two weeks into the change and the lump is significantly reduced, headed for non existent!!

Worth a thought I'm sure you'll agree!! :thumb:


----------



## Macro

hackskii said:


> I thought as much judging by his writing style.
> 
> I like to read his work, very well put together.
> 
> TBH I talked to Swale about this (Swale knows Big Cat) and he suggested by his blood work that prolactin is no issue with tren and deca, and advised me long ago that cabaser is not needed with these drugs.
> 
> I have always felt that the DHT dirivitive drugs would be the choice along with an AI for progesterone related sides, DHT opposes progesterone.
> 
> that was my take anyway.
> 
> Looking fwd to reading more of his posts.
> 
> Welcome bluestorm and Big Cat.


Swale, while a friend to the community in various ways, is wrong on this issue. He has failed to consider the multiple ways in which prolactin can act as a primary driver, even without elevation of plasma levels. the two primary of which are paracrine (local tissue) prolactin release and upregulation and/promotion of PRLR (effects that can easily double even triple the action of prolactin). Though in a discussion not to long ago, he did seem to start to recognize the issue. Perhaps he will go the other way now....

Big Cat has no experience with steroids, or any of these compounds for that matter. He has just started his first cycle ever, and it had to be explained to him that the weight he gained was water retention. Not surprising when he is at 17% bodyfat and using dbol. He tried to assert that it was the creatine, but well... that was just inexperience talking.

This is not to say that he has not contributed a lot, fair is fair, by compiling a lot of the information and research to make some decent articles on individual compounds. However, that being said, there are errors and overstatements (no more so than found in other profiles, perhaps less). However, without experience to temper the research he makes a lot of theoretical judgements that do not play out. things like reccomending 100mg of clomid, a compound that if he had used would realize for most people this just means a lot of side effects, and further research would have shown him that there is little if any difference between 50mg and 100mg, except for sides. Reccomending tamoxifen rather than AI's for estrogen control (myth based). He at least has recently recognized that paracrine PRL release or PRLR upregulation/promotion MIGHT be factors with progestins.

DHT derived drugs are useful, but they can also present issues where 3beta metabolites are upregulated. in particular with dimethylated versions (superdrol, et al). 3 betadiol is a DHT metabolite, a POTENT ER and AR agonist, you have a methylated version and you are looking at a superwhore. (receptor and allosteric binding wise).

DHT does modulate PgR and ER, but this is dose dependant and the hormone environment as a whole is quite important. you cant just pick one actor and if DHT present, estrogen less an issue. Because its usually not just DHT and when using DHT methyls you wil get much higher free DHT and testosterone, higher concentrations of total androgens can easily lead to promiscuous binding. there is such intermingled co-regulation that its unwise to say that androgens greater than estrogens= less or no gyno.


----------



## j2k

so there is no other option part from surgery to reduce/reverse Gynecomastia??????


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## Bluestorm

*deleted post*


----------



## hackskii

Macro, I call bullSh!t here.

You have shown to be a profiteer and to this, sorry..............I can not accept your posts as being legit.

You suggest others with experiance have no clue, yet use this in your arguement twards others.

Your AIFM is crap, you still suggest it is not for me.

You sir are a profiteer and I hold less respect for you.

Please do not take my post offensive, I have more experiance than you, yet you disregard me as redementary.

Your products suck, you over complicate things to prove your point, and you disregard anyones input as incomplete or incompitant.

Yah had some beers, and yah you are a profiteer.

Be thankful I dont ban you for your motives...............


----------



## Bluestorm

The main thing is; where is all the proof in healthy males?

All of these studies are on cancer and tumours.

Llewellyn spent a very lengthy time looking into this. He has a post on another board that has been ongoing since '03, and still there is no proof. He even cited in his book that prolactin is not an issue(with references).

Big Cat is currently doing an article on the topic with nothing but proof that leads the other way.

If it boils down to paracrine prolactin being the issue, why are you using dopamine agonists?

I have looked pretty in depth to find any information stating that prolactin is a problem for steroid using, healthy, males, and there is absolutely nothing. If you have some literature showing this, please post it up.

Without it, research is only showing that by inhibiting estrogen, you have no issue with prolactin causing gyno.

I'm currently talking with L.Rea to pick his brain on the subject. He did write about anti-prolactin use many times, but mainly on issues with libido.

I've seen blood work of healthy steroid using males and it does not show issues with prolactin. If it is documented anywhere, please post the info so the rest of us can make our opinions.


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## Bluestorm

Sorry, double post.


----------



## hackskii

Bluestorm said:


> The main thing is; where is all the proof in healthy males?
> 
> All of these studies are on cancer and tumours.
> 
> Llewellyn spent a very lengthy time looking into this. He has a post on another board that has been ongoing since '03, and still there is no proof. He even cited in his book that prolactin is not an issue(with references).
> 
> Big Cat is currently doing an article on the topic with nothing but proof that leads the other way.
> 
> If it boils down to paracrine prolactin being the issue, why are you using dopamine agonists?
> 
> I have looked pretty in depth to find any information stating that prolactin is a problem for steroid using, healthy, males, and there is absolutely nothing. If you have some literature showing this, please post it up.
> 
> Without it, research is only showing that by inhibiting estrogen, you have no issue with prolactin causing gyno.
> 
> I'm currently talking with L.Rea to pick his brain on the subject. He did write about anti-prolactin use many times, but mainly on issues with libido.
> 
> I've seen blood work of healthy steroid using males and it does not show issues with prolactin. If it is documented anywhere, please post the info so the rest of us can make our opinions.


Nice bro.

I would love to get to the bottom of this myself.

I always thought that DHT dirivitive drugs held progesterone/progestin drugs at bay, not to mention anti estrogens.

I admire you blue to dig for the answers you are looking for. If not for yourself, but for others.


----------



## Macro

hackskii said:


> You suggest others with experiance have no clue, yet use this in your arguement twards others.
> 
> Your AIFM is crap, you still suggest it is not for me.
> 
> You sir are a profiteer and I hold less respect for you.
> 
> Please do not take my post offensive, I have more experiance than you, yet you disregard me as redementary.
> 
> Your products suck, you over complicate things to prove your point, and you disregard anyones input as incomplete or incompitant.
> 
> Yah had some beers, and yah you are a profiteer.
> 
> Be thankful I dont ban you for your motives...............


Big Cat has no experience, with personal use. Wont comment on his other experience. And did not disregard your opinion or experience. Disagreeing, is not disregarding. And issues with Big Cat are primarily with his certainty, since he makes claims about compounds for which there is very little data and yet asserts these claims as proven "facts".

Some specific issues include:

severely underestimating the occurence of gynecomastia.

inability to recognize the different presentations, the practice definition is mass greater than 1cm, however clinical definition includes 4 to 6 different presentations, including psuedogynecomastia which is often limited to ductile expression.

stating as a fact that trenbolone does not cause gynecomastia.

stating as a fact that estrogen must be the aggravating/inducing factor. E is always present, to some extent, whether endogenous or exogenous in origin. Arguing that androgen to estrogen ratio is the only thing that matters.

--------------------------------

there are many different etiologies and presentations of gynecomastia, presentation often reflecting underlying causal or aggravating factors. While estrogen is a primary factor in breast development, men dont get "normal" breast development. Because many of these compounds suppress natural progesterone synthesis and most androgens can bind to or transactivate the PgR (providing very different action than progesterone itself). Even pure progestins have differing action than progesterone. So the virtual disregard for changes in PgR activity is a real problem with the "estrogen" only theory.

Prolactin is essential for breast tissue growth, just as essential as estrogen for "normal" growth. Prolactin can also activate Eralpha. Now to those on the other side of this issue, that means nothing. They also completely discount the benefit of prolactin suppression, which is pretty ludicrous since without prolactin breast tissue growth is also impaired. even in an estrogen deprived environment (ERKO) prolactin causes breast tissue growth, its ductile without the glandular type growth seen with estrogen. However since in many of the cases being discussed, most of these people have tissue already (something that seems to be overlooked-- over and over again), either ductile and/or glandular, that produced its own sustaining hormones, including prolactin (even when PRLR is not present), aromatase and sulfatase as well as leptin, egf, etc. Of course PRLR is not even needed for ERalpha transactivation by PRL. (a common argument is that only 20% of gynecomastia cases has PRLR, of course that means PRLR is MORE thant 10% of the tissue (how thats measured is also an issue since ductile tissue likely is not included to the same extent nor from mass perspective does it make up as much of the tissue) and since for that study they used the 1cm=gyno.. it does not cover the large number of cases outside that description.

as to AIFM, ATD is an effective aromatase inhibitor. That it did not work for you is likely related to either it was not sufficient to suppress your estrogen production, there were other aggravating factors, or you had poor uptake (which is also possible). Did make it clear was the designer of the formulation and was biased as such. And if you bought it from the Afstore and it did not work, you should have asked for a refund. they guarantee everything for 60 days from date of purchase. so if its been less than 60 return and get your money. So lets just be clear here, not a profiteer. Reccomend AIFM because it works, reccomend exemestane because it works (and has a better side effect and response profile than competitive inhibitors), reccomend letrozole because sometimes thats whats needed. Same goes for cabergoline and pramipexole, while agreeing that the underlying causation and presentation of prolactin/PRLR issues is not well delineated. There are a number of possible reasons why progestins and even androgens (most of which can either suppress progesterone and/or bind to the PgR, especially when progesterone is suppressed) can directly or indirectly cause issues with prolactin. What is very clear is that prolactin suppression is generally effective where estrogen suppression alone is not. (note- as an addition, not replacement)

btw- how many guys do you know that juice that have or have had gynecomastia? not even including the "puffy nipple" and pectoral feminization cases, which are characteristic of non central mass presentations. Out of how many people that you know that use? according to BC, its less than 5%. Believe that he has said 1-2% elsewhere. Particularly over the course of time.

btw2-according to BC population prevalence (including the fattys is 5% or less-- which is just not correct)


----------



## Macro

Bluestorm said:


> Without it, research is only showing that by inhibiting estrogen, you have no issue with prolactin causing gyno.
> 
> .


erko modeling.

and herein lies the same problem that pretty much all theoreticians have. the blank slate.

its estimated 70% of males present with clinical gynecomastia at some point before adult hood. either in the post natal period or during puberty. Tissue does generally regress, less so now with adiposity rates being what they are, particularly childhood and teen increases in bf%.

and real world. know of many cases where letrozole and tamoxifen had little or no effect on gynecomastia. addition of pramipexole or cabergoline, caused immeadiate improvement.

and to your "blood work normal for prolactin" 17 is within range, and even most physicians agree that over 10 IN A NORMAL SYSTEM causes issues. Recently was sent 2 reports, from BC's thread on bb.com, where both people had very low and low PLASMA prolactin, were not responding to letrozole, added pramipexole and saw immeadiate cessation of lactation and regression of tissue.

these reports are not outside of the norm either. surely you know of people that did not respond to AI or SERM treatments. (serms being particularly inneffective when prolactin is a factor)


----------



## hackskii

Nice post Macro, that is interesting.

Perhaps I should have picked up a prolactin inhibitor.


----------



## alex.p

Macro said:


> erko modeling.
> 
> and herein lies the same problem that pretty much all theoreticians have. the blank slate.
> 
> its estimated 70% of males present with clinical gynecomastia at some point before adult hood. either in the post natal period or during puberty. Tissue does generally regress, less so now with adiposity rates being what they are, particularly childhood and teen increases in bf%.
> 
> and real world. know of many cases where *letrozole and tamoxifen had little or no effect on gynecomastia. addition of pramipexole or cabergoline, caused immeadiate improvement*.
> 
> and to your "blood work normal for prolactin" 17 is within range, and even most physicians agree that over 10 IN A NORMAL SYSTEM causes issues. Recently was sent 2 reports, from BC's thread on bb.com, where both people had very low and low PLASMA prolactin, were not responding to letrozole, added pramipexole and saw immeadiate cessation of lactation and regression of tissue.
> 
> these reports are not outside of the norm either. surely you know of people that did not respond to AI or SERM treatments. (serms being particularly inneffective when prolactin is a factor)


I'll vouch for that, letro over 6 weeks had v.little effect on a small gyno lump that formed towards end of pct (started letro a week after formed) but have added cabergoline for last two weeks and vastly improved :thumbup1:

Anyone know how long caber should be run and how/if to taper off it?


----------



## hackskii

Cabaser has a pretty long half life, dosing can be just twice a week.


----------



## Macro

hackskii said:


> Cabaser has a pretty long half life, dosing can be just twice a week.


yes and no. will go into further later. have to run.


----------



## xplicit

A very good sticky, makes intresting if not scary reading!


----------



## anabolicmaniac

HACKSKII I WAS WONDERING IF U COULD POINT ME IN RIGHT DIRECT FOR LIQUID RESEARCH CHEMS, IVE BEEN LOOKIN AT CHEM1 / AR-R & AG-GUYS. IM WORRIED OF THE PRODUCT NOT BEING LEGIT OR BEING UNDER DOSED. WHATS UR PERSONAL FAVOURITE ?


----------



## hackskii

I have used AG-guys before a bunch of times, it takes them some time to ship, and as macro said they tend to play with the dosing.

But, I think which ever one you pick, go with the best price or one that ships to the UK.

Remember they are illegal without a scrip so I cant post the link.

I think alot of the big boards have links to the research sites.


----------



## alex.p

Not wanting to nag for an answer, but does caber have to be tapered off in any way when finishing it off? Am coming off letro and caber atm


----------



## Macro

alex.p said:


> Not wanting to nag for an answer, but does caber have to be tapered off in any way when finishing it off? Am coming off letro and caber atm


'

cabergoline is self tapering, its metabolites can remain for up to 3 months.

letrozole should be followed with exemestane/aromasin or AIFM.


----------



## Macro

anabolicmaniac said:


> HACKSKII I WAS WONDERING IF U COULD POINT ME IN RIGHT DIRECT FOR LIQUID RESEARCH CHEMS, IVE BEEN LOOKIN AT CHEM1 / AR-R & AG-GUYS. IM WORRIED OF THE PRODUCT NOT BEING LEGIT OR BEING UNDER DOSED. WHATS UR PERSONAL FAVOURITE ?


Chemone is best of the ones you listed. arr is of questionable quality and ag-guys is just rediculously overpriced for a mid range quality. Researchstop is another solid option. Both chemone and researchstop ship to UK. Generally reccomend researchstop, though somewhat biased as they adopted all the reccomendations that were given on proper chemical packaging as well as solubilization/stability reccomendations.

have provided the same information to ag-guys and others, they still use non UV resistant bottles with light sensitive chemicals. Still sell liquid cabergoline, even after being clearly informed of the stability issues. So for those reasons among others they dont get "the nod"


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## hackskii

I had some clomid crash in suspension from ag-guys, I could not get that to take back into suspension no matter how many times I tried to shake that bottle.


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## anabolicmaniac

:thumb: CHEERS LADS


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## GetBigOrDieTryn

Hope this post doesnt go too far off topic.

Im ot sure whether I have gyno or not, i think maybe my body fat may give that impression, what i do know is that i am not happy with my chest. there is plenty of weight on the lower pecks (water rention/muscle who knows!).

What would be an ideal chest workout to shape underneath the lower pecks, becuase there is a slight overlap of the skin. I am also keen to build up the top part of my chest & the inner part for the lovely crease and definition.

it has been suggested to me to leave out flat bench press, and just concentrate on incline and decline bench press and dumbell presses and flies.

Your thoughts...


----------



## T_Woody

GetBigOrDieTryn said:


> Hope this post doesnt go too far off topic.
> 
> Im ot sure whether I have gyno or not, i think maybe my body fat may give that impression, what i do know is that i am not happy with my chest. there is plenty of weight on the lower pecks (water rention/muscle who knows!).
> 
> What would be an ideal chest workout to shape underneath the lower pecks, becuase there is a slight overlap of the skin. I am also keen to build up the top part of my chest & the inner part for the lovely crease and definition.
> 
> it has been suggested to me to leave out flat bench press, and just concentrate on incline and decline bench press and dumbell presses and flies.
> 
> Your thoughts...


Try doing a mix of decline and incline bench/ dumbell pressing, mainly decline for the lower chest


----------



## alex.p

Is there any risk of running an AI for 6-8 months? Have been on letro close to 3 for gyno reduction and hoping to start a cycle in next 3 weeks, not sure if beneficial to come off the letro before start cycle?

Wondering if running AI that many months will make it a damnsight harder to come off the AI after pct?


----------



## heavyweight

hackskii said:


> I have used AG-guys before a bunch of times, it takes them some time to ship, and as macro said they tend to play with the dosing.
> 
> But, I think which ever one you pick, go with the best price or one that ships to the UK.
> 
> Remember they are illegal without a scrip so I cant post the link.
> 
> I think alot of the big boards have links to the research sites.


Hackskii mate i have a question for ya! I have seen my GP (general practioner/doctor), a specialist dermotology doctor! now he has sent me to a plastic surgery psycologist! seen the psycologist now waiting to meet the plastic surgery doctor! so it looks promising that i will get surgery on the NHS. U seem like a sound guy and seem to know alot on this subject. I think it would be near impossible to get rid of it naturally so have thought of using chemicals! But kinda scared to do so as i dont want anything to go wrong, or worse make it worse!

Im righting this as im a bit confused, cos i could swear it has been said that it would be better to use chemicals than resort to surgery, can u give me your opinion and help please hackskii and any1 else that is clued up on the subject would be awwwesome, thanks in advance


----------



## Parky

T_Woody said:


> Try doing a mix of decline and incline bench/ dumbell pressing, mainly decline for the lower chest


Decline actually works the top of the chest


----------



## hackskii

heavyweight said:


> Hackskii mate i have a question for ya! I have seen my GP (general practioner/doctor), a specialist dermotology doctor! now he has sent me to a plastic surgery psycologist! seen the psycologist now waiting to meet the plastic surgery doctor! so it looks promising that i will get surgery on the NHS. U seem like a sound guy and seem to know alot on this subject. I think it would be near impossible to get rid of it naturally so have thought of using chemicals! But kinda scared to do so as i dont want anything to go wrong, or worse make it worse!
> 
> Im righting this as im a bit confused, cos i could swear it has been said that it would be better to use chemicals than resort to surgery, can u give me your opinion and help please hackskii and any1 else that is clued up on the subject would be awwwesome, thanks in advance


I myself as well as at least two others on this board have reversed the gyno lump where it isnt noticible anymore.

I used 2.5mg femara (letro) a day and it was gone in I think it was about a month.

I know another guy that reversed his rather larger gyno using arimidex, so yah, surgery is not the only option, it is the last option. IMO

Not to mention I have a friend that got gyno in both nipples, he had the opperation and he has some of the worse keloid scars I ever saw. It looks so nasty that I would rather have the gyno than the massive scars.



Parky said:


> Decline actually works the top of the chest


Inclines hit upper chest, declines hit lower chest, so do dips.


----------



## tommy28

Parky said:


> Decline actually works the top of the chest


yeah - and quads too... :whistling:


----------



## heavyweight

hackskii said:


> I myself as well as at least two others on this board have reversed the gyno lump where it isnt noticible anymore.
> 
> I used 2.5mg femara (letro) a day and it was gone in I think it was about a month.
> 
> I know another guy that reversed his rather larger gyno using arimidex, so yah, surgery is not the only option, it is the last option. IMO
> 
> Not to mention I have a friend that got gyno in both nipples, he had the opperation and he has some of the worse keloid scars I ever saw. It looks so nasty that I would rather have the gyno than the massive scars.
> 
> :lol: i've been sodding around trying to send u a pm for ages cos my pm box is full and i didnt want to delete any of my messages, o well done now!!!!!!
> 
> Im blonde and fair skinned so am very worried about the scar tissue. Can u remind me of the sides with using letro and the rest pls. Seriously u would recommend this first, can i ask Why, i dont understand!?!
> 
> Im not sure if there is glandular tissue i think it is swaying more toward pysdo(or what ever its called) gyno, i think its more hard fatty tissue, can this be removed using an AI, or is it SERM?!! should know by now!
> 
> Inclines hit upper chest, declines hit lower chest, so do dips.


 :lol:


----------



## hackskii

Letro would be my first choice because most of the guys that have used that, got good results from that.

I would do this approach first for a number of reasons, it it doesnt work, you are not going to be out much money.

Gyno could go away before you are even scheduled for surgery.

Risk of scar tissue is there.

Surgery has its own sort of sides, and lets face it, some people dont make it after surgery but that is rare, but just so you know.

Know a lady that went in for some knee surgery and a blood clot got her and she is now dead.

Sides?

Stiff joints, loss of libido, potential for compromised lipid profiles, and potentially some bone loss.

but for the time you are using it before you decide it is working or not, that will be short.

Not to mention, taking large amounts of Vitamin D also helps HDL's increase.


----------



## Lil D

I've been reading through this thread and its very interesting but can someone clear up a more substantial way to check?

I get the whole Disc behind the nipple but do ye mean a solid disc or a ring more of? and when I check I just get straight to my pec, but I am a sufferer of puffy nipples and am carrying fat tissue on my chest due to being out of shape with a bad combo of 2 injuries hitting me at once.

So yeah can someone clear this up for me , considering my BF is about 20% and when standing with good posture there is no sag just a slight feel of fat below nipple and can feel lower pec beneath that with puffy nipples but no feel of a disc?Thanks in advance , really appreciate it.


----------



## heavyweight

hackskii said:


> Letro would be my first choice because most of the guys that have used that, got good results from that.
> 
> I would do this approach first for a number of reasons, it it doesnt work, you are not going to be out much money.
> 
> Gyno could go away before you are even scheduled for surgery.
> 
> Risk of scar tissue is there.
> 
> Surgery has its own sort of sides, and lets face it, some people dont make it after surgery but that is rare, but just so you know.
> 
> Know a lady that went in for some knee surgery and a blood clot got her and she is now dead.
> 
> Sides?
> 
> Stiff joints, loss of libido, potential for compromised lipid profiles, and potentially some bone loss.
> 
> but for the time you are using it before you decide it is working or not, that will be short.
> 
> Not to mention, taking large amounts of Vitamin D also helps HDL's increase.


Out of all the docs ive seen so far none of them have actually said if it is glandular or psydo!!! would letro get rid of pysdo? thanks hackskii


----------



## hackskii

heavyweight said:


> Out of all the docs ive seen so far none of them have actually said if it is glandular or psydo!!! would letro get rid of pysdo? thanks hackskii


Question?

Why would one use an envasive surgery to rid a condition that perhaps could be remedied with the use of an AI?

Dude, you wanna get cut, go for it, you got nothing to lose but your gyno.

Lets not forget, doctors make money on surgery, they are not obligated to tell you alternitive remedies where they have no clinical evidence that this may or may not work.

They wont put you at risk other than surgery.


----------



## ba baracuss

Heavyweight - if it's glandular you should be able to feel lumps or discs behind the nipple.

If it's pseudogyno there will be no lumps but the nipples will be 'puffy' and soft.

I'm sure your doctor must have checked this.


----------



## BlackCoffee

Hi all wondering if anyone can help with some input.

Never taken gear or anything before, and have had this since I was 13/14 but its progressively getting worse.

the nipples (both) are soft and very very puffy...no hard lumps behind them

but you can feel soft 'tissue' behind them..

when its cold my nipples shrink right down and you could never tell they were puffy etc...

not too fond of taking AI's knowing ive had this problem for over 5 years, so am considering surgery.

any comments on this?

would my doctor provide me with the letrozole etc?

once off the AI's will the nipples most likely return puffy?


----------



## ba baracuss

Sounds like pseudogyno mate.

You could try lowering your bodyfat and building your pecs up to see if that helps.

It's not an estrogen related issue so AIs would likely be of no use.


----------



## Macro

ba baracuss said:


> Sounds like pseudogyno mate.
> 
> You could try lowering your bodyfat and building your pecs up to see if that helps.
> 
> It's not an estrogen related issue so AIs would likely be of no use.


this is not really correct, all pectoral feminization has some aspect of estrogen influence (usually a factor in both development and maintanance). Prolactin is also highly involved, particularly in nipple puffyness with ductal (and corresponding fatty pocket) expansion.


----------



## ba baracuss

Macro said:


> this is not really correct, all pectoral feminization has some aspect of estrogen influence (usually a factor in both development and maintanance). Prolactin is also highly involved, particularly in nipple puffyness with ductal (and corresponding fatty pocket) expansion.


In that case, what course of action would you recommend for him to take?


----------



## Macro

aromatase inhibition with exemestane, letrozole may be used short term in beginning (2-4 weeks).

prolactin suppression, even if prolactin is not an issue directly (and it usually is at least a factor) suppression is beneficial for fat loss and helps induce apoptosis of adipose and other tissues. Pramipexole preferred, then cabergoline, then bromocriptine then selegiline.

A2 adrenoceptor inhibition (topical yohimbine directly applied.. yohimburn es or other.. oral yohimbine of some effect but will spike insulin)

calorie restriction

moderation/limitation of insulin spikes (low fat, moderate to high complex carbs and protein--- protein with EVERY meal-- to blunt insulin response)

reduction of PgE2 (avoid foods with arachidonic acid)


----------



## ba baracuss

Macro said:


> aromatase inhibition with exemestane, letrozole may be used short term in beginning (2-4 weeks).
> 
> Any dosage suggestions?
> 
> prolactin suppression, even if prolactin is not an issue directly (and it usually is at least a factor) suppression is beneficial for fat loss and helps induce apoptosis of adipose and other tissues. Pramipexole preferred, then cabergoline, then bromocriptine then selegiline.
> 
> So the order of drugs listed is in order of preference? Any dosage suggestions for these?
> 
> A2 adrenoceptor inhibition (topical yohimbine directly applied.. yohimburn es or other.. oral yohimbine of some effect but will spike insulin)
> 
> calorie restriction
> 
> moderation/limitation of insulin spikes (low fat, moderate to high complex carbs and protein--- protein with EVERY meal-- to blunt insulin response)
> 
> reduction of PgE2 (avoid foods with arachidonic acid)


----------



## BlackCoffee

thanks for the response.

I will look into these before going the Surgery route.

Its annoying because when cold the glands shrink and its all normal.

how would I be able to get hold of the letrozole and others you mentioned? PM me if necessary.

Thanks again for your help mate.


----------



## Mars

ba baracuss said:


> Sounds like pseudogyno mate.
> 
> You could try lowering your bodyfat and building your pecs up to see if that helps.
> 
> It's not an estrogen related issue so AIs would likely be of no use.


Totally agree ba, sound like pseudo gyno and the drugs MACRO mentioned may be totally unneccessary, i would def go with you're approach first off.

MACRO is just trying to confuse the issue as usual and thats not very helpful.

OP, so as said, before you even think about AI's, start off where ba said.

Thats the first thing, then if the issues don't resolve themselves then it's the medicinal route and finally surgery, thats the order to do things with the symptoms you have described.


----------



## BlackCoffee

mars1960 said:


> Totally agree ba, sound like pseudo gyno and the drugs MACRO mentioned may be totally unneccessary, i would def go with you're approach first off.
> 
> MACRO is just trying to confuse the issue as usual and thats not very helpful.
> 
> OP, so as said, before you even think about AI's, start off where ba said.
> 
> Thats the first thing, then if the issues don't resolve themselves then it's the medicinal route and finally surgery, thats the order to do things with the symptoms you have described.


alright well ive got a good 4-5 week solid cut (i can get lean quicker than putting on size) I'll assess the situtaion, if I see puffy nipples on a hard pectoral then ill go to the docs and ask for some of what you guys have reccomended...hopefully ill have luck on that front.


----------



## hackskii

How about a closeup pic of the gyno in question?


----------



## Macro

mars1960 said:


> Totally agree ba, sound like pseudo gyno and the drugs MACRO mentioned may be totally unneccessary, i would def go with you're approach first off.
> 
> *MACRO is just trying to confuse the issue as usual* and thats not very helpful.
> 
> OP, so as said, before you even think about AI's, start off where ba said.
> 
> Thats the first thing, then if the issues don't resolve themselves then it's the medicinal route and finally surgery, thats the order to do things with the symptoms you have described.


*WTF? ...*


----------



## Sylar

Sounds like pubertal gyno to me from the very limited info he give in his post, may be wrong though. If it is pubertal, it's genuine gynecomastia formed as a result of hormonal imbalances due to puberty, not Pseudo gyno.

You don't have to have hard lumps to have genuine gynecomastia. Allot of pubertal cases are just feminized glandular Breast tissue, puffy nips etc - usually developed as a result of negative oestrogen to T ratio during puberty and possibily elevated prolactin. Diet and exercise alone will not get rid of this tissue, or the puffy nips.

If it is genuine pubertal gnyo, the protcol Macro outlined should yield positive results.

The only thing is, it's very hard to tell the difference bewteen genuine feminized glandular breast tissue and Pseudo in the average man just by a photo. The only real way to find out would be to

A; Get bloods done

or

B; Drop BF%

If he's a lean guy to start with, i'd put my money on it being genuine gynecomastia. If he's carrying a few lbs, it could well be Pseudo.


----------



## ba baracuss

BlackCoffee said:


> thanks for the response.
> 
> I will look into these before going the Surgery route.
> 
> Its annoying because when cold the glands shrink and its all normal.
> 
> how would I be able to get hold of the letrozole and others you mentioned? PM me if necessary.
> 
> Thanks again for your help mate.


We can't PM you mate as you haven't been a member long enough.

You can get letro and other aromatase inhibitors and SERMs from research sites. We can't post links due to board rules, but if you google chemone research you won't go far wrong.

If I were you I would do a cut and see where that leaves you.

If you still have the problem when lean you can try the aromatase inhibitor or dopaminergic route.


----------



## BlackCoffee

Sylar said:


> Sounds like pubertal gyno to me from the very limited info he give in his post, may be wrong though. If it is pubertal, it's genuine gynecomastia formed as a result of hormonal imbalances due to puberty, not Pseudo gyno.
> 
> You don't have to have hard lumps to have genuine gynecomastia. Allot of pubertal cases are just feminized glandular Breast tissue, puffy nips etc - usually developed as a result of negative oestrogen to T ratio during puberty and possibily elevated prolactin. Diet and exercise alone will not get rid of this tissue, or the puffy nips.
> 
> If it is genuine pubertal gnyo, the protcol Macro outlined should yield positive results.
> 
> The only thing is, it's very hard to tell the difference bewteen genuine feminized glandular breast tissue and Pseudo in the average man just by a photo. The only real way to find out would be to
> 
> A; Get bloods done
> 
> or
> 
> B; Drop BF%
> 
> If he's a lean guy to start with, i'd put my money on it being genuine gynecomastia. If he's carrying a few lbs, it could well be Pseudo.


This sounds spot on.

Whilst I do have some bodyfat on the chest area (specially there) I've been much leaner and they still are puffy and protruding.

Also I remember having this when I was 13/14/15/16 when i was Super skinny so it definatly is pubertal gyno.

I will get blood work done, and see what the doc says/ then look into what Macro suggested.Theres so many differing opinions on dosages and lengths whilst using the letro etc. Would really appreciate if someone gave a good line, and will it f*ck up the hormones after I stop, will the puffyness return?

also if anyone has had the gyno OP privately in the UK what was the cost?

Thanks in advance people


----------



## Sylar

Even if your blood work shows your body is back in homeostasis now mate, it's still gynecomastia tissue and will more than likely be fibrous after all these years. I still think it would be a good idea to get bloods done though to find out whether you may need to be looking at long term treatment, rather than short.

There was a bloke on here last year who's Doctor put him on Arimidex indefinitely on a private script for abnormal elevated E2 levels. That was costing him £104 per month, so I'm not sure if they would offer you that on the NHS?

You could try the protocol Macro outlined on the previous page to reduce the gyno. I've run Letro myself for pubertal gynecomastia and had some positive results with it. I know of 3 other guys on this board who have used it for the same purpose too, with only One not seeing any decent results. I believe he has a date booked for surgery soon.

As for private surgery in the UK, I'm not certain on the prices, but think it's somewhere in the region of £4000-4500 - There was a bloke on here not so long ago that arranged to have his surgery carried out in Poland at almost a third of that cost, incl flight/accommodation and was very happy with the results. I'll try to find the thread now...

Here:

http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/steroid-testosterone-information/53144-gyno-surgery-my-experience.html

Although AI's/Dopaminergics are not a dead cert to work, they are definitely worth a try before going down surgical route IMO mate. You probably won't be able to completely get rid of it, but may be able to reduce it to a liveable level.


----------



## alex.p

For those of us with existing gyno, when starting new cycles is it best to stick with say adex at 0.5mg/eod or 1mg/e3d, or maybe to go for letro?

Am about to hop back on having run a few months of letro and tapered off to reduce a lump (not gone completely but half pea size at worst now)..just wondering best course of action to take with course (test 500mg)


----------



## Macro

alex.p said:


> For those of us with existing gyno, when starting new cycles is it best to stick with say adex at 0.5mg/eod or 1mg/e3d, or maybe to go for letro?
> 
> Am about to hop back on having run a few months of letro and tapered off to reduce a lump (not gone completely but half pea size at worst now)..just wondering best course of action to take with course (test 500mg)


exemestane 12.5-25md ED


----------



## alex.p

exemestane (aromasin) a better option than adex or letro Macro, or is it more personal preference/experience?

Just wondering if the fact is a suicide inhibitor is beneficial over the other two...


----------



## hackskii

alex.p said:


> exemestane (aromasin) a better option than adex or letro Macro, or is it more personal preference/experience?
> 
> Just wondering if the fact is a suicide inhibitor is beneficial over the other two...


Macro will say yes here.

But lets face it, some AI's work better for some, and not others.

For me letro is hands down by far the strongest, in fact too strong for me, but it worked for reversing my gyno.

I would suggest a product that fits your budget and works.


----------



## alex.p

Thanks hackskii, think I might start with adex and move to letro if need be (have both to hand in large enough quantity)


----------



## SHAROOTS

I getting gyno nearly two weeks ago, I started taken 40mg Tamoxifen but I feel as if its still there, my nips are sort of puffy and can only be noticed when relaxed not after a chest workout. Has anyone any ideas how I can get rid of this? the icthing has went away but nips still a bit puffy


----------



## hackskii

What gear are you taking?


----------



## SHAROOTS

Scott I PMd u earlier.


----------



## SHAROOTS

Is the Gyno noticeable after doing chest exercises? or just when relaxed?


----------



## breaker247

Higuys i am a new member to you forum but have used it for some time and found it to be a great resource.

Been reading loads of threads bout gyno and peoples sucess stories regarding revesal of effects.

Im after help /advice!!please.

Im 30 now and do not take any thing at all but when i was in my early twenties started using steroids for about 8 months to a year

i was young and stupid and very mis informed i never even knew that i should do post cycle therapy i know i will prob get people having a go but i deserve it really.

Now about 6 (clean) years later i know a lot more and am a lot wiser what i would like to know is im prety sure i have gyno i feel lumps behind my nipples the right nipple has lump bout the size of marble and the left is about twice the size quite hard and sensitive hurts if i poke it hard

Have not trained for about 5 years and am quite fat round the middle never really noticed the lumps till bout 2 years ago and now that im getting off my lazy **** and losing weight its really playing on my mind/confidence

Is this somthing that letro will help with or am i resigned to living with it.

Any thoughts help comments gratefully recieved !!!

p.s was on 1 sus and 1 deca a week for about 8mth-1 year


----------



## scot.r111

Gents,

i'm a little concerned. I don't have lumps but maybe a little swelling, I do have a sort of ache though. I am running a cycle of Deca and Sustanon, the source where I got these told me when I asked about gyno that if it showed itself during the cycle then he would get me the correct drugs to reverse it. I want to take matters into my own hands and sort it now.

I have read through the thread and it is fantasic, lots of info, a bit too much for me. I basically want to pick the best, effective safe guard, considering the Deca and Sustanon. 

Any help will be really appreciated.

S


----------



## ba baracuss

Both of you guys above could try aromatase inhibitors first and if no success look at dopaminergics such as pramipexole since both have used progestins (deca).

Check the thread for dosage suggestions for each.


----------



## scot.r111

Thanks BA Baracuss,

What aromatase inhibitor would you recommend, is Arimidex a good choice? This thread is really, really good but needs a better level of knowledge than I have. There are lots of options mentioned throughout, I just want to get the one that may produce the best results.

Cheers

S:thumb:


----------



## hackskii

adex is fine, letro is strong, aromasin some guys like and you dont have to taper that.


----------



## scot.r111

Cheers hackskii,

Sorry about this, is Adex as you mention above an abreviation of Arimidex? If it is, it is fairly expensive, at the inhousedrugstore web site there is an alternative they recommend (due to price), have you heard of it, its called astrozole. I've put a link to it below, I was a bit worried about doing this as I don't fully know the rules on putting in links, please feel free to erase.

http://www.inhousedrugstore.co.uk/womens-hrt/anastrozole.html

Sorry to be a pain

Scott


----------



## ba baracuss

Yes mate adex=arimidex which is the trade name for anastrozole.

Your gear source may be able to source it for you - if not check out chemoneresearch for liquid AIs.

It's all a matter of preference and opinion really as hacks says.


----------



## scot.r111

Thanks BA, I'll do as you say.

All the best

S


----------



## hackskii

Yah, the chem places would be cheaper, that stuff on the black market is seriously expensive.

But, some guys take EOD and E3D so you dont have to take all that in a day and the dose of 1mg is very strong, enough to reverse gyno.

The goal here is just estrogen management.......Big diffrence.


----------



## scot.r111

hackskii said:


> Yah, the chem places would be cheaper, that stuff on the black market is seriously expensive.
> 
> But, some guys take EOD and E3D so you dont have to take all that in a day and the dose of 1mg is very strong, enough to reverse gyno.
> 
> The goal here is just estrogen management.......Big diffrence.


Cheers hackskii,

Took a google to work out what EOD & E3D meant but I got there! My understanding of the abbreviations is terrible. yes they'll last a lot longer if thats the case.

Thanks to you and BA for all your advice, it's a godsend having a source of knowledge like this. Reps to you both.

All the best

Scott


----------



## hackskii

No problems mate.


----------



## breaker247

Thanks guys does it matter that its been so long since i was on the gear?

Wasn't sure if after so long it could still be reversed?

Many thanks guys


----------



## hackskii

breaker247 said:


> Thanks guys does it matter that its been so long since i was on the gear?
> 
> Wasn't sure if after so long it could still be reversed?
> 
> Many thanks guys


Sure it can be reversed, but the longer you are on the more aggressive the approach for restoration would be.


----------



## theleandog

Hi Guys,

On the back of this, can anyone recommend a surgeon to actually have gyno removed? Never tried letro so maybe thats the way to go. Have developed gyno from previous cycles when i was younger without an AI, stupid i know, now even using liquid adex from a research chem place they still flare up!!! So annoying. Any advice on this would be great , thanks alot.

theleandog


----------



## ba baracuss

theleandog said:


> Hi Guys,
> 
> On the back of this, can anyone recommend a surgeon to actually have gyno removed? Never tried letro so maybe thats the way to go. Have developed gyno from previous cycles when i was younger without an AI, stupid i know, now even using liquid adex from a research chem place they still flare up!!! So annoying. Any advice on this would be great , thanks alot.
> 
> theleandog


Have you tried letro, adding a dopaminergic if it was from deca, tren or oxy mate?

Worth a try if you haven't.

I would put a post in the main section for a surgeon recommendation.


----------



## hackskii

I get my prami this week, I am going to use it and have my chick use it too.

I am optomistic of its ability to enhance mood, and libido, we shall see as my GF needs both of those...lol


----------



## ba baracuss

Will be interested to know how you get on with that Scott. I've read good things about it for (aside from combatting prolactin) mood, sex, and GH boosting too :beer:


----------



## scot.r111

Sorry, what's prami? I've read the thread and don't remember seeing it, it sounds good though...just interested.


----------



## ba baracuss

scot.r111 said:


> Sorry, what's prami? I've read the thread and don't remember seeing it, it sounds good though...just interested.


Pramipexole. It's a dopamine agonist.

It's used by some to deal with prolactin issues from progesterone gyno, but is also said to help with mood, sex and growth hormone release which is why hacks is trying it I'd imagine.


----------



## scot.r111

ba baracuss said:


> Pramipexole. It's a dopamine agonist.
> 
> It's used by some to deal with prolactin issues from progesterone gyno, but is also said to help with mood, sex and growth hormone release which is why hacks is trying it I'd imagine.


I want some too!

Thanks BA


----------



## hackskii

Yah, for mood, libido, and GH release.

It is also said to curb hunger and also thirst.

I am going to share it with my chick as she has no libido at all, hopefully it will do something there, and she is also depressed.


----------



## scot.r111

hackskii said:


> Yah, for mood, libido, and GH release.
> 
> It is also said to curb hunger and also thirst.
> 
> I am going to share it with my chick as she has no libido at all, hopefully it will do something there, and she is also depressed.


I definately want some now!


----------



## hackskii

I wont get it till Monday, so Tuesday I may put up a little log and track things.


----------



## scot.r111

That'd be really good mate, I'll definately follow it.

Cheers

Scott


----------



## Goose

A log would be good Hackskii! As I have been looking into Pramipexole myself.


----------



## deano82

hi there ive had gyno in the past...i took tamoxifen and the lump went but my chest ( nipple) has gone waterry like and pouty. whats this letro ??? will it help? im also due to start a 8 month cycle on gh, will that help shape my pecs a bit better or not?? any advice or help would be much appreciated.


----------



## marco123

You cant ask that question on the board.

Go to one of the research sites like chemone or something similar.


----------



## jay j

Hi all,

Interesting messages on gyno here, anyone had smart lipo? hows it go? I recently had it, but with actuall suction too which isn't the standard way, but my dr has developed a really effective technique. He even revomoved glands all through the smart lipo, and he did some on my abs as well which i'm surprised has made a big difference as i already had good abs. Recovery time was really quick and i have no stiches.

Is this too good to be true? Will my Gyno come back? Anyone else use Dr Joost?


----------



## bowey

jay j said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Interesting messages on gyno here, anyone had smart lipo? hows it go? I recently had it, but with actuall suction too which isn't the standard way, but my dr has developed a really effective technique. He even revomoved glands all through the smart lipo, and he did some on my abs as well which i'm surprised has made a big difference as i already had good abs. Recovery time was really quick and i have no stiches.
> 
> Is this too good to be true? Will my Gyno come back? Anyone else use Dr Joost?


in theory if you had your glands removed your gyno shouldnt come back but people have different views on what gyno is, is it fat around the breast causing it to look more round or is it your nipple sticking out to much?


----------



## jay j

bowey said:


> in theory if you had your glands removed your gyno shouldnt come back but people have different views on what gyno is, is it fat around the breast causing it to look more round or is it your nipple sticking out to much?


hi i had fat but could also feel something hard under nipple. they didnt really stick out though. they were jiggly and bit puffy, if that helps describe them. Anyways both problems have been removed. have you got gyno?


----------



## bowey

jay j said:


> hi i had fat but could also feel something hard under nipple. they didnt really stick out though. they were jiggly and bit puffy, if that helps describe them. Anyway both problems have been removed. have you got gyno?


yea i have, the more i try and tone my chest the more there sticking out lol am not happy lol, sick of wearing tight vests under my tshirts :angry:


----------



## jay j

Really just get it seen too, best thing i did. are the glands hard hard? listening to this brings back the memorys. tight shirts, no taking tops etc.

u in the uk? i can recommend my doc. get a consultation. let me know.


----------



## Macro

Goose said:


> A log would be good Hackskii! As I have been looking into Pramipexole myself.


there are a lot of good threads on prami. IMO dopaminergics and modulators are the future when it comes to QOL and GH/prolactin issues (in particular dealing with age and dopamine metabolite toxicity issues- more common among AAS users due to elevation of dopamine and dopac (and thus DOPEG and DOPAL)

some threads

http://www.afboard.com/forum/anabolic-discussion/30264-pramipexole-prolactin-suppression-prevention-vs-treatment-dosing.html

http://www.afboard.com/forum/anabolic-discussion/31745-prami-success-story.html

http://www.professionalmuscle.com/forums/showthread.php?t=44183

http://www.afboard.com/forum/anabolic-discussion/29402-research-stop-pramipexole.html

http://www.afboard.com/forum/anabolic-discussion/29551-prami-protocol.html

women's

http://www.afboard.com/forum/womens-discussion/30612-pramipexole-feedback.html


----------



## Gary82

I've this year done a course of DS - EStane. I didn't notice any sore nipples etc when on but have always wondered about gyno (since becoming interested in body building) as i have never been flat chested, not got full on bitch tits or anything like that, but, as i say, never been flat since i can remember. So i had a squeeze last night to see if could feel any lumps, and some juice came out the nipples, not loads, like a bead of sweat amount. Which has got me worried, should i be!? I could feel no lumps etc, but not sure i am checking in the correct place. Where should i be checking (im hoping as i noticed nothing this is good, and if was something there i would know about it)!? I am due to start a course of Tbol in 2 weeks. Is this wise, should i run something alongside the Tbol in case of any flare ups!?

Thanks in advance for any help anyone can give me,

Regards,

Gary


----------



## hackskii

T-bol shouldnt be an issue, but it is not a good idea to play with your nipples, seems to elivate prolactin when doing so.


----------



## Goose

hackskii said:


> T-bol shouldnt be an issue, but it is not a good idea to play with your nipples, seems to elivate prolactin when doing so.


Hmmm well I like to play with my gf's nipples.. This wouldn't cause any harm would it?


----------



## hackskii

Goose said:


> Hmmm well I like to play with my gf's nipples.. This wouldn't cause any harm would it?


No, that is fine, helps lower stress too:lol:


----------



## Goose

hackskii said:


> No, that is fine, helps lower stress too:lol:


Ah good, thought it was helping my stress levels :laugh:


----------



## shauno

Does anyone else think that in alot of cases gyno is just excess bodyfat?

I do and think that unless you feel extreme puffyness and soreness and or lumps, then its most likely holding of water and bodyfat.


----------



## Macro

shauno said:


> Does anyone else think that in alot of cases gyno is just excess bodyfat?
> 
> I do and think that unless you feel extreme puffyness and soreness and or lumps, then its most likely holding of water and bodyfat.


excess adipose tissue is part of gynecomastia, and gynecomastia is also affected by excess adipose tissue. its the pattern of storage and underlying ductal, glandular and lobular structures that delineate what is and what is not gynecomastia. typically if chest fat is disproportionate (for a male) then there is at least some level of pectoral feminization and usually some structural development--- this can go away with weight loss, and it may not--- there are a lot of factors.


----------



## jay j

yes there's pseduo-gyno too, which essentially fat deposits. But however both fat and glandualr increase each other or something. As fat teenagers tend to develop some gyno at times and glands. plus glands encourage the growth of fat cells in the breast too. the purely gland ones tend to look a bit cone like in appearance. Both can be dealt with lipo though.


----------



## hackskii

Well, as men age, the ratio of T to E changes, they tend to have lower testosterone levels and higher estrogen levels due to more aromitization.

I see older men at work all the time with tits, I see it so much because I am hyper-sensitive to it.

In some men I really feel sorry for them, they sag just like womens boobs.

I dont see this in younger men like in older men.


----------



## gymfreak

i started to get a lumpjust under the one nip, and was realy sore to touch. i started taking tamoxifen and after 3 wks it went.


----------



## shauno

all im saying is i get the impression from alot of posts that a bit of fat on your chest is gyno and your fcked for eternity without meds and surgery.

you get fat all over and when you diet, hopefully it should come back off again, thats my opinion on it.

loads of people who dont even train get puffy nipples sometimes,

id diet down and dry out out before using drugs un less there is soreness and or lumps


----------



## jay j

yeah the aromatization is practically inevitable with age in most men. It's like the DHT and male pattern baldness. the effect of DHT may arrive in the late 20s but as soon as it does its bye bye quickly to your hair. question is, once the glands have been removed and the fat sucked out, will/can gyno return later in life? during middle age? because my doc done and 1st class job with smart lipo, but now i worry there is a chance of revenge of boobs later on. Is there?


----------



## hackskii

Yep, if the gland is there, you are not immune.


----------



## Goose

Well ive suffered from the "puffy nipple" look for years.. way back before training, steroids etc so I gather this could be gyno? but then I have had it checked out and informed it is not gyno?


----------



## jay j

"puffy nipples" is excactly the term to describe my ones. If yours are the same then they can be easily treated by some smart lipo too. You may find some glands under them too, but moslty fat. After the smart lipo the puffyness disappeared and skin become tighter. looks like a proper sculpted chest now. pecs are so much easily visible and defined, and not just after workouts.

why dont you get a consultation, i can pass u docs contact details if you wish. let me know.


----------



## Goose

jay j said:


> "puffy nipples" is excactly the term to describe my ones. If yours are the same then they can be easily treated by some smart lipo too. You may find some glands under them too, but moslty fat. After the smart lipo the puffyness disappeared and skin become tighter. looks like a proper sculpted chest now. pecs are so much easily visible and defined, and not just after workouts.
> 
> why dont you get a consultation, i can pass u docs contact details if you wish. let me know.


Appreciate it but it really doesnt bother me that much to want to go to the extent of surgery.. I have never had any problems with the shaping of my chest either.


----------



## jay j

no worries goose, smart lipo isnt actually classed as surgery though.

Oh yeah there's some injectons that women do in clinics mesotherapy or something. they inject small areas with fat like neck etc. probably work on nipps.

dont know much about this, but it was on this morning once, and its quite popular, takes a few sessions. may well be a loud of nonsense. who knows.


----------



## jayt

has any body used the liquinolve to help to try and prevent?


----------



## hackskii

Nolva has been used for years to combat gyno during cycles.


----------



## Macro

hackskii said:


> Nolva has been used for years to combat gyno during cycles.


true, but its not really the best option. And with all the progestins and designer steroids (potent androgens and disruptors of the dopaminergic system) nolva has become more marginalized. Particularly since AI's are more effective (they actually reduce plasma estrogen) and dopaminergics offset the progestenic and prolactogenic effects of trenbolone and the many methylated designer steroids on the market.

speaking of which how is the prami treating you?


----------



## hackskii

Macro said:


> true, but its not really the best option. And with all the progestins and designer steroids (potent androgens and disruptors of the dopaminergic system) nolva has become more marginalized. Particularly since AI's are more effective (they actually reduce plasma estrogen) and dopaminergics offset the progestenic and prolactogenic effects of trenbolone and the many methylated designer steroids on the market.
> 
> speaking of which how is the prami treating you?


Totally agree, there is some issues with endo's on nolva and blood clotting, I mean why treat the symptom when you can treat the cause.

Put the prami on hold, I was feeling kind of tired, I will start it back up.

I noticed I was getting weight loss from that, I gained 4 pounds after I stopped it.

I will give her another shot tonight.


----------



## LOCUST

Hackskii can you answer me something please..

i really need to get to the bottom of this for future cycles..

When ever i use a long esterd test, ie sust, cyp, enth i get gyno, nothing can control it or halt it except letro,

its reappeard again on my rebound cycle, and im using 50mg prov and .5mg adex per day aswell and that hasnt stopped it starting up and even with 20mg of nolva added, its done nothing.

for my cycle i ran short esters the whole way, of prop, tren a and mast a also added winny atthe end and had no gyno issues at all over 12 weeks.

3 weeks in to my cyp rebound and i have my usual gyno lump back !! grrr.

so what is it with long esters ? do i just need to steer clear from them ?

nick


----------



## hackskii

I personally dont think it matters, testosterone is testosterone the only diffrence is the delivery times from the esters.

Some factors that might influence gyno I have found was the longer cycles I take, the gyno flairs at the end of the cycle, so does my blood pressure.

Maybe it is just too many androgens for too long.

Another factor for gyno is the ratio of testosterone to estrogen, when the gear is clearing and estrogen is present, gyno can flair too.

Can you maybe the letro is not good?


----------



## LOCUST

Thanks. Letro is the only thing that shifts it. But on cycle I find it very supressive

I might wIt till I can clear it in pct then run a short ester cycle net and see if it appears

then I'll know.


----------



## ba baracuss

LOCUST said:


> Hackskii can you answer me something please..
> 
> i really need to get to the bottom of this for future cycles..
> 
> When ever i use a long esterd test, ie sust, cyp, enth i get gyno, nothing can control it or halt it except letro,
> 
> its reappeard again on my rebound cycle, and im using 50mg prov and .5mg adex per day aswell and that hasnt stopped it starting up and even with 20mg of nolva added, its done nothing.
> 
> *for my cycle i ran short esters the whole way, of prop, tren a and mast a also added winny atthe end and had no gyno issues at all over 12 weeks.*
> 
> 3 weeks in to my cyp rebound and i have my usual gyno lump back !! grrr.
> 
> so what is it with long esters ? do i just need to steer clear from them ?
> 
> nick


Masteron and winstrol are both highly androgenic/DHT-ish. That means they oppose estrogen which would kind of explain the lack of issues when using them.


----------



## hackskii

ba baracuss said:


> Masteron and winstrol are both highly androgenic/DHT-ish. That means they oppose estrogen which would kind of explain the lack of issues when using them.


Totally.........Nice post...

I cant rep you though.............


----------



## bkoz

Do glands under the nipple swell up?And when you ad an ai it stops the swelling.

Because thats what it feels like with me.On cycle big lumps under my nipple come up.

Then of cycle they go back down only adex settles it.Nolva does nothing.I realy think it progesterone.

Its like i dont get full gyno.Just like a swolen lump then goes.


----------



## hackskii

Yes, I get gyno symptoms and a lump in the gland at the end of my cycles lately, I use letro to reverse this.

If it is an aromitizable steroid then it is not progesterone.

If it was tren or deca, then that is another story.


----------



## bkoz

I,ve got a tiny bit of water coming out my nipples..i,ve got adex and letro..If its progesterone gyno.Will this help at all??????


----------



## hackskii

What are you taking gear wise?


----------



## bkoz

I,ve just stoped deca and test with gh,I,m now taking test prop,Tren ace.But i,ve swoped the tren for masteron As i,m scared its gonna get worse..

Does it mean that from now on i should stay away from deca and tren??????For years i,ve never got gyno.Last year it started..


----------



## sunnysingh

hackskii said:


> No doubt using an AI during an aromitizable cycle would be a good idea, this I have found works better for recovery beings that estrogen in itself is so supressive.
> 
> Doubtful that .5 EOD will reverse the gyno during a cycle.
> 
> that would probably be enough to keep estrogen sides at bay.


i used a prohormone 2 years ago, i didnt use a proper pct, i think i have minor gyno, is there a way to reverse it cuz im ready to go on my first steroid cycle


----------



## hackskii

Yah, letro, or adex can most likely shrink the lump.


----------



## testosterone1

Hackskii how long had your gyno been present? I have gyno from puberty and I'm currently waiting on 2 60ml bottles of Letro & Pramipexole.

Fingers crossed!


----------



## hackskii

My gyno flaired at the end of a cycle and I used letro to reverse it.

It was there for maybe about 2 weeks, I was using aromasin for estrogen management and was using some HCG too, along with test.

Letro squared it away and got rid of a lump on my wrist that was there for years too.

Strange how that stuff works.


----------



## hackskii

Yah, I should have mentioned the stiff joints, and the loss of libido.

Other than that I felt fine but I do hear it can effect bone loss and compromise liipid profiles, but nothing too scary, for how little of time you are on, it isnt a big deal.


----------



## Rambo55

Ive had a lump for over a year, it flared up when i was clean,and had been for almost 2 years,

Since ive started this cycle which finishes next week im not sure if its got worse i could be parnoid,ive been using 0.5mg Adex ED. visually it dont look worse, but i think as ive got so lean i can feel it more,

Im booked in to have it cut out in sep ( NHS) so even though im using HGH,test and tren im not sure whether its causing any problems.

im going away the day this cycle fnishes do you think once compounds are stopped i will be ok, My worry is going away for a couple of weeks with the lump getting worse and not having no A.I on hand?

any help would be appriciated

thanks


----------



## testosterone1

Your gyno wasnt there for very long scott, thats probably alot to do with ur success with letrozole. I'll be using it to treat pubertal gyno, I've a 6 pack and puffy nips ffs. If the letro and prami dosen't work I will be going for surgery as it ****es me off in the good weather. I've read most of your posts along with Andye's as he reversed alot of his with letro but ended up goin under the knife in the long run. Fingers crossed anyway


----------



## hackskii

Relax mate, I have seen actually guys lumps that were old being reversed with the use of AI's.

It is the fiberous ones that are tough to remove, and often require surgery.

But?

What if you reversed your gyno with letro?

That is far less invasive than surgery.

Try the easy sh!t first.


----------



## testosterone1

I intent to mate I'll let you know how it goes as I've researched alot of your threads for weeks and others on uk-muscle so I will definately let you guys know how it goes


----------



## sizar

hi i got a question .. i am looking to start my 1st cycle .. do you guys recommend using tamoxifen tabs to run all the way through my cycle or only if gyno appears .. i'll also do 4 weeks of pct of nolva and clomid. thank you


----------



## Rudedog

sizar said:


> hi i got a question .. i am looking to start my 1st cycle .. do you guys recommend using tamoxifen tabs to run all the way through my cycle or only if gyno appears .. i'll also do 4 weeks of pct of nolva and clomid. thank you


Only if gyno shows it's ugly head mate.

You would be better off using adex though mate.


----------



## hackskii

sizar said:


> hi i got a question .. i am looking to start my 1st cycle .. do you guys recommend using tamoxifen tabs to run all the way through my cycle or only if gyno appears .. i'll also do 4 weeks of pct of nolva and clomid. thank you


As above, an AI would be a better approach for managing estrogen than tamox.


----------



## sizar

hackskii said:


> As above, an AI would be a better approach for managing estrogen than tamox.


Yeah but i cn't get hold of them from my source so i don't know what to do . i was reading about it .. it does the same job .. what you guys think ?


----------



## hackskii

Try a research site like ag-guys or chemone or something of that nature, it is actually cheaper too...

Taste's like ass though...lol


----------



## testosterone1

hackskii said:


> Try a research site like ag-guys or chemone or something of that nature, it is actually cheaper too...
> 
> Taste's like ass though...lol


I've actually picked to use research-stop as I've heard their dosages are accurate and top notch products in general. Chem-one was my second option. I'm just going to go with the letro now and leave the prami out, just to see how it goes


----------



## Rambo55

Question. if you have a gyno lump, and it hurts even though your taking A.I. does the pain mean its growing ??????????

Im using tren and test,HGH,and anavar, I have a photoshoot in 8 days ive stoped the Test today and HGH today. and was planning on running the Var and Tren right up to the shoot.?

If theres still pain would you suggest dropping the Tren and just running the Var?

I cant get no Dostinex,prami etc..... but i think Tren gyno dont cause lumps? only discharge?

Also ive run all these drugs before with NO issues im 99.9% sure its the HGH.

thanks


----------



## testosterone1

Yes that means it is still growing.

I would switch to a better AI ie. Arimiex or Letrozole. Also human growth shouldn't agrovate it that much it could be fake human growth like HCG as these are very similar in appearance and easily copied. I suggest running Testosterone for 2 weeks after dropping the Tren as it is very harsh on your nuts. Keep taking the anavar until you finish your course and a small dose of testosterone with your AI. Nolvadex can aggrovate prolactin gyno with tren. Research-stop is a trusted supplier of prami/letrozole/arimidex. I would run prami for progesterone gyno but letrozole works for all types of gyno also and would be the best allrounder, very powerful


----------



## Rambo55

Thanks mate, Yeah ive think ive been done with my HGH that ive been running for 10 weeks, im 90% sure its fake, if its HCG im sure thats what the problem is,as ive done Tren E and Tren A before and never had issues.

Ive got to stop the test as im one week out from a photoshoot mate, do you think i should just run the Var or keep the tren in for one more week,

Ive bumped my Adex up to 1mg/day and ive droped the HGH/HCG ??? LOL


----------



## testosterone1

i would drop the tren and continue using arimidex at 1mg/day until symptoms subside, could take a week or so. Carry on with your anavar and personally I would run a low dose of the test for another week/2 week. Arimidex will tackle any water or fat retention while returning your chest to normal. No worries with a good AI mate. Id get some clomid for PCT and leave the nolvadex out as this could be prolactin related. Good luck bud


----------



## Rambo55

testosterone1 said:


> i would drop the tren and continue using arimidex at 1mg/day until symptoms subside, could take a week or so. Carry on with your anavar and personally I would run a low dose of the test for another week/2 week. Arimidex will tackle any water or fat retention while returning your chest to normal. No worries with a good AI mate. Id get some clomid for PCT and leave the nolvadex out as this could be prolactin related. Good luck bud


what with 1mg/day of Adex you think taking the test will be ok mate? cant f*ck this shoot up LOL.Saying that i will be depleting from monday. and im dry now. not holding any water really. still full visible abs..

I actually go away on holiday the day after this shoot. so ill just keep running the Adex whilst i chill on the beach 

any maybe run some clomid out there to( does that agrrivate gyno as much as HCG)

thanks for the help bro


----------



## testosterone1

Sounds like a plan bro 

Yea definately no worries with the Test while running A-dex at 1mg/day. Bloat should be non-existant.

Tren requires more care coz if you develop gyno on it its hard to pin point if its estrogen or progesterone related or both so always best to have arimidex/letrozole on hand for the estrogen and some Pramipexole for the progesterone so your tackling it from both angles and also stopping it & reversing it. Deca and Tren are high risk without a good AI and Prami

Research-stop.com carries all these products mate


----------



## hackskii

Yes, GH is often faked with swapping labels with HCG.

You can test your GH by using a early pregnancy test (EPT), if it shows positive then you have HCG and not GH.

High dose GH can elivate prolactin, so it is possible to get gyno from GH if the dose is high enough and you are sensitive to prolactin.

If it is HCG, then the letro will KO that or the adex.


----------



## Rambo55

Well i have a feeling its fake to be honest( reason being when i fipped yellow lid off the whole top can off with it???? plus even though there website reconised my number it was not fibres it was just printed on, plus inside the box was just polostyrin(sp)LOL, but i did a test this morning and it said " not pregnant" ??

It was Jintropin and i only did 4iu/ED so not high dose.

its been cut now anyway along with tren


----------



## hackskii

If it showed no pregnancy then it isnt HCG.

It could be GH perhaps?


----------



## Rambo55

Yeah maybe? but it just didnt seem right,hard to explain, plus i never got anything from it mate. i know you have to take it for a while, but i did 4iu ED for 12 solid weeks and im not any leaner than i noramlly would be from t3,clen,anabolics,cardio and diet??

didnt feel good on it, re: mood or any of that stuff??


----------



## testosterone1

Sounds like growth Hormone mate I've only known it to be faked with HCG like Hackskii said and the pregnancy test is a great way of finding out if it is or not. Take some T3 with your HGH and tren test and winstrol stack great with it. You need to run it for 3+ months though and at around 4IU+ per day.


----------



## SvenPowerH

Rambo55 said:


> Well i have a feeling its fake to be honest( reason being when i fipped yellow lid off the whole top can off with it???? plus even though there website reconised my number it was not fibres it was just printed on, plus inside the box was just polostyrin(sp)LOL, but i did a test this morning and it said " not pregnant" ??
> 
> It was Jintropin and i only did 4iu/ED so not high dose.
> 
> its been cut now anyway along with tren


That's a fake bro, throw it away.


----------



## player684

Ive done two sustanon shots so far and my nipples are already starting to get sensitive. I have used some products (made by americancellularlabs) in the past which made my nipples permanently larger, but never caused any lumps. My nolva never made it hear (i know i shouldnt have started this until i had it) but i do have proviron and clomid. Can i use either of these right now as an AI until i get nolva? i have read conflicting information about this. Also, i plan on using letro or tore to see if i can ruduce any of the damage caused before.


----------



## hackskii

proviron and clomid can be used but it wont be very effective but probably will stop the sensitivity.


----------



## player684

hackskii said:


> proviron and clomid can be used but it wont be very effective but probably will stop the sensitivity.


Since it wont be very effective should i go with 50 or 100 mg ed of the clomid? Which product do you feel would be most effective at attempting to reverse any of the gyno issues i caused before?


----------



## hackskii

How about 50mg proviron and 50mg clomid?


----------



## player684

hackskii said:


> How about 50mg proviron and 50mg clomid?


Sounds good. Ill start that today and see how it goes.

Would you suggest i take this now and use letro when im off (or now while im on) cycle to try and reverse the puffiness/gyno?

Thanks for your help


----------



## hackskii

Letro during, the other stuff when you are off.


----------



## player684

So i just wanted to make sure of a few things before i purchase the letro, as this **** isnt cheap. I have not found any lumps but as noted before, there is some sensitivity. I took 50mg of clomid and 50mg of proviron right today and will continue to do so until a few days after the sensitivity subsides. The main issue is preventing gyno but also the size of my actually nipples. they are huge. Do you think letro will shrink the nipples back down to size or is this a normal reaction to a sustanon cycle (250 a week).


----------



## hackskii

I take it that your nipples are huge before you started the cycle?

If so then I dont think you will have much luck, that sounds like a genetic disposition thing to me.


----------



## player684

Thanks for help so far Hackskii, i will explain all i can so you have an understanding of what im going through. By the way i feel like an idiot writing all this but here it is. before i started any of this i had normal nipples. Then i took these products from american cellular labs. i used their version of an ai but i dont think it helped (this was before i had any idea of what i was doing). Using this increased the size of my nipples. Now that i started my sustanon cycle my nipples have enlarged more and are starting to become cone shaped with sensitivity. As we discussed before, i started taking 50mg of clomid and proviron for the past three days. This has not provided any relief yet (never used this before so im not sure how long it takes to kick in). So im not sure what to do. I am trying to get letro and nolva but it will probably take three weeks for this to happen. So i figure that either i can stop the cycle now (have only taken 2 shots) and contiune the clomid for a few weeks as pct, or purchase the letro and take that in three weeks while i continue my cycle and hope this doesnt get too bad as more test builds in the body.

I hate to keep going back and forth with this but i am getting kinda nervous about this causing more problems and not being reversable.

Thanks again


----------



## player684

in your opinion what should i do


----------



## hackskii

One of the research sites can get you that stuff in a week.

I would continue on with the clomid and the proviron, but it wont be too effective but better than nothing.

Stopping the cycle depending on how much you used could take weeks to clear the system.

One week from the research sites.


----------



## player684

im allergic to alcohol and from what i can see all of the liquid solutions are suspended in it. It would be a lot cheaper and quicker but i just cant do it.


----------



## hackskii

Bummer, glad I am not allergic to alcohol, otherwise I would be fcuked...............

Dont know what to say other than you PM me for a local source.


----------



## Goose

corrie j said:


> hi there
> 
> am a female of 18 years old and am really starting to get into my training i study health and fitness but currently got a bad shoulder injury so was out for a while and have went back to square one unfortunatly.
> 
> i was really considering anavar in the new year as i was goin to build up to taking it from now. having a clean diet and good exercise routine. i do weight training 4/5 days per week and same cardio. i was wondering if anyone had any adavce on my diet pre to taking anavar and advice on taking it safely i have done my reserch but would just like more opinions.
> 
> thanks


Welcome,

This is clearly off topic? You have posted this in a Gynecomastia - Male Breast Development thread LOL

I think you need to start your own thread chick.


----------



## corrie j

yeah a noticed tht now thanks i have done lol


----------



## Macro

player684 said:


> im allergic to alcohol and from what i can see all of the liquid solutions are suspended in it. It would be a lot cheaper and quicker but i just cant do it.


you are allergic to ethanol? even if you are, 1-2ml (which even if you take multiple products you are unlikely to ingest) is unlikely to cause a reaction.

taking supplements that upregulate aldehyde dehydrogenase (sesamin/episesamin- sesapure or those that inhibit mast cell granulation (quercetin with bromelain- numerous brands) should offset, if you are that sensitive.


----------



## player684

i received my letro five days ago and started taking it immediately. since i dont actually have any lumps, just sensitive and really puffy nipples, i dont want to dose it too high. since i have the pill form of letro its also a little difficult to dose out. the first three days i took about .60mg and day four and five i took about 1.25mg. I know that it can take a long time for letro levels to rise to an effective dose in the blood stream. this brings me to my question. should i continue raising my dosage til i reach 2.5 mg a day (the dosage often referenced to reverse gyno) even though i dont have lumps? Should i take 20 mg of nolva a day while i continue the letro? (doing this for a week or two until the letro builds up in the system) I know that the use of nolva and letro toegether greatly reduces the effectiveness of the letro. i have five weeks left on my cycle and and just want to prevent gyno from taking place and reduce the puffiness. what would you guys suggest?


----------



## 161187

Ever since I was 14 I have had pubertal Gyno, Went to the docs worried as you do, he said its normal for a male your age they will go down in time as you grow.

so i thought fine, il wait...

im now 22 and no sign of them reversing infact theyre getting bigger....ther eis no pain whatsoever, I cant feel any lumps, its just tissue like.

Just wondering if Letrozole would work for pubertal Gyno, or whether I should go mother the hell out of my GP to get me that op free because im " Depressed" over it haha:laugh:


----------



## BoltonBobcat

Hackskii

now having been very niave a few years back and taking deca / sus without even the knowledge of the dangers, i have developed behind my right nipple a lump that perhaps i may have had for circa 12 months,

although not really visible i am really paranoid about it...

now...

can i reverse it by taking letro?

if so how much?

if i run another course (which i am thinking of, first one in 12 or so months) be it only a Dbol 6 week course of 30mg a day...

taking nothing during cycle but post cycle...

Day 1 Clomid 100mg - 50mgx20days

Day 1 Nolva 40mg - 20mgx 20 days

would this prevent any further gyno progression?...I know dbol isn't to great for Gyno

or is a thought that i am more succeptable to Gyno?

any help appreciated.


----------



## hackskii

Letro at 2.5mg ED for the reversal of the gyno, may take about 5 weeks or so to clear that up as it may take up to 3 weeks for blood plasma levels of the letro to be at their values.

Now this may or may not work, but I reversed mine but it was not pubertal gyno but from a cycle, but I did reverse it.

PCT is ok for that cycle, but be on the lookout for gyno and have your meds around just in case.


----------



## BoltonBobcat

many thanks...

when you say have your meds around...is that running letro again or nolva at say 20mg?


----------



## hackskii

Both would be a good idea.


----------



## 161187

does anyone have a link for somewhere i can buy letro, im gna run it for a whle on my pubertal gyno see how i get on, thanks


----------



## D_MMA

How do you define the Gyno compared to say water retension or fat?

I have had sensitivity before but always combated it with nolva and take proviron through my course also.

I have puffy nipples, no lump whatsoever though... could this just be fat (considering im bulkin) ??


----------



## danielswem

hackskii said:


> Gynecomastia-Male Breast Development.
> 
> By: Bruce J. Nadler M.D.
> 
> Several years ago my answering service called to tell me the number of obscene telephone calls that were coming through on my line alarmed them. They went on to explain that the calls all started on normally but then all of these young men started to use foul language. They couldn't believe the number of different people doing this. I thought for a moment and then asked if the term they heard was "bitch tits." "Yes that is exactly what they say" was the reply.
> 
> With a big smile I explained to them that these were just patients expressing a medical condition. Gynecomastia, bitch tits or "the bodybuilder's tumor" all mean the same thing, the embarrassing development of male breasts.
> 
> Gynecomastia
> 
> The treatment of gynecomastia has become a specific interest of mine due to all the bodybuilders I treat. I have long ago set the world's record in performing these surgeries and have lectured to other surgeons on my techniques.
> 
> It is a problem that has existed through antiquity. Ancient hieroglyphics show the condition on several of the Pharaohs. It is not all that uncommon. The Navy did a study during World War II and classified one quarter of their recruits as having excessive breast tissue.
> 
> Seated Statue Of Amenhotep IV (Akhenaten)
> 
> Dynasty 18, 1353-1337 BC
> 
> Click To Enlarge.
> 
> Causes
> 
> The condition can occur naturally or as a side effect of anabolic steroids and other medications. It has also been implicated with the excessive use of marijuana.
> 
> The use of anabolic steroids is especially implicated. Of course not all steroids will cause it, only the ones that aromatize. Anadrol, Sustanon and Dianabol are especially known causes. Some others are weaker stimulators and are dose related.
> 
> When gynecomastia occurs naturally, it is a slower process and usually consists of both glandular and fatty tissue. Anabolic steroid induces gynecomastia occurs much more rapidly and is usually a sheet of pure glandular tissue. Of course there is a range between these extremes
> 
> When the body senses too much testosterone or a testosterone like substance, it tries to reduce the level by a process called aromitization. This converts the testosterone to estradiol, an estrogen like substance. All men have some glandular tissue. If there is also genetic receptor sensitivity, the increased estradiol level will stimulate this tissue to grow.
> 
> Symptoms
> 
> It is first noticed as some sensitivity in the nipple area often going on to real discomfort. As the tissue further develops, the area will swell and extend laterally under the arm. The condition can run the range from a mass under the nipple with perhaps some coning to fully developed breasts.
> 
> It is most noticeable when you least want it to be. If the weather is cold, everything tightens up. But in the warm weather, when you want to take your shirt off, it all pouts forward and is noticeable.
> 
> I've lost track of the number of my patients who continuously pinched themselves or used ice cube and cold water to keep things from being too noticeable. Estrogen blockers like Nolvadex or Arimidex can prevent the occurrence but only surgery can cure it.
> 
> Click Here For The Top Selling Estrogen Blockers.
> 
> Surgery
> 
> The surgery consists of a combination of liposuction and direct glandular excision through a small incision at the nipple border. Beware of any surgeon who claims to be able to treat it with liposuction alone. I have had to operate on many patients who have had this previous surgery elsewhere.
> 
> Liposuction merely removes the fatty component and after the swelling subsides, you merely have a smaller version of what was there before.
> 
> I have also seen patients scarred across the entire chest and others who have had parts of their pectoral muscles removed.
> 
> It is done under general anesthesia and lasts about 2 hours. Liposuction is first done to remove the fatty component allowing the glandular tissue to condense. A small incision is then made at the lower nipple border.
> 
> The glandular tissue is then carefully removed tracing the extension under the arm. Too many inexperienced surgeons fail to do this creating a crater in the middle of the chest. A small amount of glandular tissue is left just behind the nipple to prevent collapse and indentation.
> 
> Often suction drains are used for the first few post-operative days to prevent fluid collection is the pocket previously occupied by the tissue. I do all the suturing with dissolving, buried sutures to minimize scarring and avoid that railroad track look. A compression vest is worn for several weeks to control the skin shrinkage.
> 
> Post Surgery Health
> 
> It is very important to be off any anabolic cycle for at least 6 weeks prior to the surgery. Anabolic steroid side effects such as slowing of blood clotting and increased blood pressure add to the possibility of surgical complications. In addition altered liver chemistry due to some anabolics can add to the risk of anesthesia.
> 
> Low impact aerobic activity can resume in a week. Light weight training can resume in 3 weeks with the exception of chest and back. Chest and back can start lightly at 4 weeks and full routines can be resumed at 6 weeks.
> 
> It is my greatest pleasure when the patients can tell me they can happily walk around with their shirts off.
> 
> For more information I can be contacted at 1-800-445-0505 or through my web site at Bruce J. Nadler M.D. Aesthetic Plastic Surgery.
> 
> Bruce J. Nadler M.D.


Click Here For The Top Selling Estrogen Blockers

I take Dutas 0.5mg for hair loss but would like to take a oral estrogen blocker any ideas cheers


----------



## hackskii

Why do you want to take estrogen blockers?


----------



## skinnyfatman

i was on 20mg of fluoxetine for years i'm sure this gave me gyno.. i'm now on 150mg on venlaflaxine.. (anti depressants).. letro isnt on my sources list i might use a knife


----------



## Dwaine Chambers

skinnyfatman said:


> i was on 20mg of fluoxetine for years i'm sure this gave me gyno.. i'm now on 150mg on venlaflaxine.. (anti depressants).. letro isnt on my sources list i might use a knife


That's interesting. I know SSRIs can lower your sperm account temporally but I haven't heard of them giving you gyno before.


----------



## iopener

Apologies if this has been posted before, but I have found this to be very useful.

http://www.endotext.org/male/male14/male14.html


----------



## saekson

hello people, im on my third week of test-e 500mg e5d,

im starting to get a very mild tingle in my left nipple, should i worry or am i just paranoid?. its been like this for 3 days.


----------



## hackskii

So, you are doing a gram a week of test?

I would run an AI in there.


----------



## saekson

hackskii said:


> So, you are doing a gram a week of test?
> 
> I would run an AI in there.


yeah 700mg ew, you think i should put arimidex in there?

its my first cycle and i feel i dont wanna use arimidex if not really needed.

or is it a bit stupid not to?

Sides i have encountered,

Increased irritability (controllable)

Mild tingeling nipple

Higher libido

little Testicular shrinkage


----------



## hackskii

lol, all normal if you ask me....lol

Estrogen management will help with recovery and protect you from gyno.

@ 750mg EW of test, it would be wise to run an AI for estrogen management.

Many will say estrogen is good for gains, and it is, but it carries its own set of sides, adding in an AI to control it not supress would be wise, and wont hinder gains unless you are lowering estrogen too low.

But, I dont like bloating, gyno, or massive supression........But that is just me.


----------



## jimmychoochoo

i recently went under the knife to get my natural gyno removed and am now thinking of doing a cyp and dbol cycle does having natural gyno make me more prone to steroid gyno?


----------



## saekson

hackskii said:


> lol, all normal if you ask me....lol
> 
> Estrogen management will help with recovery and protect you from gyno.
> 
> @ 750mg EW of test, it would be wise to run an AI for estrogen management.
> 
> Many will say estrogen is good for gains, and it is, but it carries its own set of sides, adding in an AI to control it not supress would be wise, and wont hinder gains unless you are lowering estrogen too low.
> 
> But, I dont like bloating, gyno, or massive supression........But that is just me.


ok sounds good to me, i was thinking of this b4 the cycle, but i wanted try it without, but as you say estrogen management isnt a bad idea

Ill start with .25 eod tomorrow.

ps. do you know when sides usualy starts to show? like bloat, and increased hairing


----------



## Guest

in need of some letrozole or arimadex any one help me? cheers, mike


----------



## Dwaine Chambers

myksterx said:


> in need of some letrozole or arimadex any one help me? cheers, mike


Two sites that I'm allowed to mention...

chemoneresearch

unitedpharmacies

There are others but i can't remember... if you don't get response in this thread then maybe you need to ask in the main section.


----------



## Macro

researchstop.com

though only reccomend letrozole for short term treatment, should be followed by exemestane.

estrogen excess presents a LOT of issues of which gynecomastia is actually just a minor one. the ones that should really concern people here is MBC (MALE BREAST CANCER and PROSTATE CANCER), though prolactin is equally implicated in those (partly why pretty much always reccomend prolactin suppression for everyone as well)


----------



## langly

I ran a PH cycle of mass tabs and then did Nolva PCT (20/20/10/10), I am in my 3rd week of nolva and i noticed my left nipple hurting a bit when i press it. Today i noticed that when i squeezed it some fluid leaked out - though a very small amount.

I want to get some letro right away to run and try and sort this before it develops into any solid lumps but there were fraudulent transactions on my credit card so it has just been cancelled meaning I cant buy online!

So now my plan is to go to the doctor on monday and get their help, just seeing if anyone has gone to their docs about gyno/etc and if so what did they tell you? Did you get prescribed letro/caber to sort it? as I am sure this is what I will need.

Any help would be great.

Thanks.


----------



## shaunyc

hi guys new here.ive had problems with gyno any a small hard lump behind my nipple but im really concious about it just wanna no does this letro or arimidex work and if so is it safe buying off line something im scared of doing


----------



## Macro

letrozole alone can be effective... generally reccomend a multi-pronged approach, especially where there is nipple puffyness... but certainly many cases will clear up with letro alone...

yes ordering online is generally without issue... other than being ripped off...


----------



## shaunyc

cheers marco


----------



## marmite

I've had puffy 'cone' like nipples since my teen years, but they were not really noticeable back then and did not bother me as I had a flat chest and was really skinny. For the last 4 years ive been hitting the gym hard and had great gains on my chest but it kinda makes the appearance of my chest look worse 'bitch tits'

When i take my top off my nipples are quite large and puff out over the muscle ive built! Its noticeably worse when im sitting down on say a stool and my back is arched, if that makes sense?!

As mentioned before by someone in this tread my chest looks great when my nipples are cold, but when hot, they puff out!

I don't have a hard lump under them!? Or they are really itchy etc&#8230;.

Anyway i went to the docs a while back as i have run anabolic cycles before and was worried. He told me it was not gyno as he could not feel any lumps. On that particulate day it was cold in his office (typical) I did explain that when it got hot it got noticeably worse but he explained that if it were gyno they would not shrink at all&#8230;.. is this correct??

It's really annoying and ****ing me off as am training like hell, i guess i do have fat on me but not much, it's just in my lower chest, the nipple, that puffs out!

I've been training incline press hard over flat bench as I've been told this helps, any other tips from you guys would much be appreciated

Cheers


----------



## Macro

its not clinical gynecomastia, which is defined SOLELY by mass size of 1.5cm or greater central mass. You likely have primarily ductal development.

prolactin issue, ongoing either centrally or peripherally by ducts themselves (likely both)... also likely increased local estrogen (ductal and fatty tissue associated just like to crank out aromatase.) over all plasma may only be slightly elevated....

pramipexole with exemestane (you can short run letro)

calorie deficit (structural apoptosis is difficult under best hormone circumstances, harder with hormonal affects of calorie surplus... not to mention just the effect of nutrient surplus)

moderate saturated fats, particularly look into decreasing animal fats and other sources of arachidonic acid-- which is a precursor for PGE2 highly linked and supportive inflammatory prostaglandin.


----------



## bassmonster

Macro said:


> its not clinical gynecomastia, which is defined SOLELY by mass size of 1.5cm or greater central mass. You likely have primarily ductal development.
> 
> prolactin issue, ongoing either centrally or peripherally by ducts themselves (likely both)... also likely increased local estrogen (ductal and fatty tissue associated just like to crank out aromatase.) over all plasma may only be slightly elevated....
> 
> pramipexole with exemestane (you can short run letro)
> 
> calorie deficit (structural apoptosis is difficult under best hormone circumstances, harder with hormonal affects of calorie surplus... not to mention just the effect of nutrient surplus)
> 
> moderate saturated fats, particularly look into decreasing animal fats and other sources of arachidonic acid-- which is a precursor for PGE2 highly linked and supportive inflammatory prostaglandin.


Felt like I was reading a text book there dude with extracts pulled out from middle of sentences... :confused1:


----------



## hackskii

Macro said:


> moderate saturated fats, particularly look into decreasing animal fats and other sources of arachidonic acid-- which is a precursor for PGE2 highly linked and supportive inflammatory prostaglandin.


Well then adding in fish oils will help elivate PGE1 and PGE3 which are anti-inflammatory prostaglandins.


----------



## Macro

bassmonster said:


> Felt like I was reading a text book there dude with extracts pulled out from middle of sentences...


doctors dumb.. gyno only be lump... he be have boob tubes for milk and stuff. boob tubes feed selves with fem chems (hormones) they make as well as the fat that likes to hang out with them also a source of these hormones.

dont want boob tubes and puffy nips.. take pramipexole and exemestane.... if you want to hit em hard for a bit, use letrozole then exemestane..

eat food too much is bad when trying to kill boob tubes or gyno lumpies. food feed tubes and lumpies also make hormone pals and grow buddies... make hard kill tubes and lumpies.

animal fat bad... make grow and irritate hormone.. make tubes and lumpies angry and full of water... make them stronger...

that better


----------



## Macro

hackskii said:


> Well then adding in fish oils will help elivate PGE1 and PGE3 which are anti-inflammatory prostaglandins.


agree, though not as familiar with them (even if anti-inflammatory may not be beneficial in this aspect... though generally super polys are as well as their active metabolites)

as will taking GLA (though needs to be taken with sesamin/episesamin- eg sesapure or other to see full benefits via delta-5-desaturase activity.)

moderating insulin and calorie intake are pretty key for most people as well... not a necessity but if try to get true regression and tissue apoptosis... HIGHLY reccomended. otherwise still there, just all shrunk... gots to CRUSH IT.


----------



## marmite

So it can be reversed by using letrozole then exemestane?!?

how do i run a course on these 2 ?? amounts to be taken etc..

thanks for the help, didnt want to go under the knife but this sounds like good news.


----------



## bassmonster

marmite said:


> So it can be reversed by using letrozole then exemestane?!?
> 
> how do i run a course on these 2 ?? amounts to be taken etc..
> 
> thanks for the help, didnt want to go under the knife but this sounds like good news.


it has been known to reverse it but not going to work on everyone...


----------



## hackskii

I reversed mine using letro, worked well.


----------



## bassmonster

hackskii said:


> I reversed mine using letro, worked well.


what dosage did you use mate and how long for?

was yours pubertal gyno or steroid induced?


----------



## hackskii

bassmonster said:


> what dosage did you use mate and how long for?
> 
> was yours pubertal gyno or steroid induced?


I am 50 years old. :lol:

Defo wasnt puberty gyno, hell I wish, that was long gone many many years ago....lol

It was on a cycle and at the end of the cycle which was strange as I never got it before but now it seems each cycle now I get tender and need to use.

2.5mg ED of letro and about 2 weeks or so it was gone.

I had a lump on my wrist for about 4 years when I was using test and EQ, and that lump went away too.

That was wild as that was there for a long time and I thought it was some kind of ganglean (sp) cyst, but in the end it went and never came back.

But, you *WILL* have to taper that, and also I got terribly stiff joints and also it crushed my libido, I could not get an erection for the life of me.

Stuff is totally strong but it did work for me.


----------



## bassmonster

hackskii said:


> I am 50 years old. :lol:
> 
> Defo wasnt puberty gyno, hell I wish, that was long gone many many years ago....lol
> 
> It was on a cycle and at the end of the cycle which was strange as I never got it before but now it seems each cycle now I get tender and need to use.
> 
> 2.5mg ED of letro and about 2 weeks or so it was gone.
> 
> I had a lump on my wrist for about 4 years when I was using test and EQ, and that lump went away too.
> 
> That was wild as that was there for a long time and I thought it was some kind of ganglean (sp) cyst, but in the end it went and never came back.
> 
> But, you *WILL* have to taper that, and also I got terribly stiff joints and also it crushed my libido, I could not get an erection for the life of me.
> 
> Stuff is totally strong but it did work for me.


Thanks for the info mate...i'm not worried about libido at all...i just don't wanna buy a pair of bra later on... :lol:

when say you taper down, what if i do 2.5mg ED for the first week then say 1mg the second week...will that be ok?


----------



## hackskii

Well, I would just slowly lower the dose then once you get down to like .5 or so you can stop.

Or, run some nolva at the very end of that, then you wont need to taper it, but run the nolva for a week or so and you can even taper that.

Research sites use liquid, that is super easy to dose for tapering.


----------



## marmite

sorry if i sound dumb but is letro a liquid not a tablet then?!


----------



## bassmonster

marmite said:


> sorry if i sound dumb but is letro a liquid not a tablet then?!


It's available in both...


----------



## marmite

bassmonster said:


> It's available in both...


are they both as good as each other?!


----------



## bassmonster

marmite said:


> are they both as good as each other?!


i've not used either but i would assume so.


----------



## marmite

whats a good authentic site to get Letro from??


----------



## marmite

Macro said:


> doctors dumb.. gyno only be lump... he be have boob tubes for milk and stuff. boob tubes feed selves with fem chems (hormones) they make as well as the fat that likes to hang out with them also a source of these hormones.
> 
> dont want boob tubes and puffy nips.. take pramipexole and exemestane.... if you want to hit em hard for a bit, use letrozole then exemestane..
> 
> eat food too much is bad when trying to kill boob tubes or gyno lumpies. food feed tubes and lumpies also make hormone pals and grow buddies... make hard kill tubes and lumpies.
> 
> animal fat bad... make grow and irritate hormone.. make tubes and lumpies angry and full of water... make them stronger...
> 
> that better


what to you mean by animal fats bud?! not fishy fats i take it!? is it e.g the crap thats in burgers etc??


----------



## Macro

no, not fishy fats... transfattys acids are also an issue as they can interfere with action and metabolism of omega-3 and other fatty acids. hyrdrogenated oils are really bad for you... and why now two states have actually banned their use in commercially produced and restaurant food.


----------



## TaintedSoul

Has anyone ever used 1mg of Adex every day during a course. I've got puffy nipples and lumps under each. Think right came from Tren as it appeared after using Tren first time.

Currently running 1mg Prami each day and feel I need 1mg adex to keep everything down.

Just wondering if I'm suppresing too much estrogen?


----------



## Andyc21

Hmmm I didn't realise this topic was in here lol. I just posted an entirely new topic on what supplements to take to try and get rid of it in the supplements section!

My problem is this... I have been lifting weights and having protein supplements since I was 17. I am 21 now, around a year ago I started to get puffy nipples and in the last 6 months they have been sore and tender. There is no lumps behind the nipple and my actual pecs themselves are firm and strong but the nipple is pointy and it feels like water/fat behind it. When I wear tight shirts it looks ridiculous and it's extremely embarrasing so I have to wear baggy stuff at the moment 

I have never taken steroids or anything else apart from protein, so what the heck is wrong? Could I take something to reverse the sore tender and puffy nipple problem? There is no lumps behind them as I mentioned so is this easier to reverse?


----------



## BOK

I've just finished a "blast" of tren and test and going on to a "cruse" of half the blast test. I don't have sensitive or puffy coning nips. But have noticed a lump about half way between my nipple and arm pit. It's feels about half the diameter of a pencil and 2 cm long, I get shooting pains radiating from it sometimes. Also lumpy in the armpit, sore to push on, I know don't push on them. After reading this thread and tren making you prone to gynecomastia I'm starting to wonder if I should use some letro whilst on my cruse. Which is a lot beter than my wife and daughter telling me I have breast cancer and should go to the quack for a mammogram etc! What do you guys think about the tubular lump?

Thanks,

Bok


----------



## ba baracuss

BOK said:


> I've just finished a "blast" of tren and test and going on to a "cruse" of half the blast test. I don't have sensitive or puffy coning nips. But have noticed a lump about half way between my nipple and arm pit. It's feels about half the diameter of a pencil and 2 cm long, I get shooting pains radiating from it sometimes. Also lumpy in the armpit, sore to push on, I know don't push on them. After reading this thread and tren making you prone to gynecomastia I'm starting to wonder if I should use some letro whilst on my cruse. Which is a lot beter than my wife and daughter telling me I have breast cancer and should go to the quack for a mammogram etc! What do you guys think about the tubular lump?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Bok


I would go to the doctor mate TBH. It may well be gyno but I would get it checked first if I were you.


----------



## hackskii

That does not sound like gyno to me, lymph gland perhaps?


----------



## LunaticSamurai

hackskii said:


> That does not sound like gyno to me, lymph gland perhaps?


 He should ge it checked but Gyno can spread quite far, i dont know about its starting point.

I've had mine removed but i still have a lump half way inbetween my nipple and collar bone.


----------



## Goose

Im confused with the whole situation to be quite honest and im pretty sure ive got something...

No lumps yet i have puffy nipples and its predominately my right one.. when tensing its like fatty/water behind the nipple and its rather annoying me now.. Im running 20mg Nolva daily at the minute but cannt see this will do fcuk all to be blunt.. its been 5 days and ive noticed tiddly plop!


----------



## LunaticSamurai

Goose said:


> Im confused with the whole situation to be quite honest and im pretty sure ive got something...
> 
> No lumps yet i have puffy nipples and its predominately my right one.. when tensing its like fatty/water behind the nipple and its rather annoying me now.. Im running 20mg Nolva daily at the minute but cannt see this will do fcuk all to be blunt.. its been 5 days and ive noticed tiddly plop!


 Thats how mine started, did you run PCt straight after a cycle or did you not bother.


----------



## Goose

LunaticSamurai said:


> Thats how mine started, did you run PCt straight after a cycle or did you not bother.


PCT has been OK. There was one cycle where I didnt bother only as a few old school bodybuilders who I knew said it wasnt necessary.. But too be honest Ive had it before I even took steroids.. Now im off everything im not sure if I just notice it more or what!? I just want rid, but im not willing to go down the surgery route


----------



## LunaticSamurai

Could be what it is then.

I noticed mine wheni came off gear more than when i was on it, i had not choice but to go under the knife, (4 times)


----------



## Goose

LunaticSamurai said:


> Could be what it is then.
> 
> I noticed mine wheni came off gear more than when i was on it, i had not choice but to go under the knife, (4 times)


I couldnt face surgery.. it seems worse now than it ever has.. when on cycle it seems ok..

but for me to have it before roid use makes me think is it pseudo gyno? but if so I dont really understand the best protocol to take to get rid.

Has your 4 ops now been successful?


----------



## Guest

Goose said:


> I couldnt face surgery.. it seems worse now than it ever has.. when on cycle it seems ok..
> 
> but for me to have it before roid use makes me think is it pseudo gyno? but if so I dont really understand the best protocol to take to get rid.
> 
> Has your 4 ops now been successful?


Hey Goose. Your symptoms sound very similar to what I was experiencing. I started to get the puffiness while still natural as well. With talking to Hacks and Sylar I got some good information. I think some people's bodies just naturally produce higher levels of estrogen and are more sensitive/prone to gyno. I am in that boat. So by the the end of my course I noticed some slight coning and a little lump under my nipple. I decided to attack it while off cycle. I have been off for three monthes. Hacks advised me to try Letro. I must say that, for me, it has been slow progress but in the last week I have definately noticed a difference. I am in the 4th week of using it. From what I have read it takes some time for blood levels to come up to speed. I am guessing that is why it took so long to start seeing some progress. I plan to run it another 2 weeks. Hoping by then it will be sorted.

So you may want to try Letro. Just a suggestion


----------



## Goose

ZEUS said:


> Hey Goose. Your symptoms sound very similar to what I was experiencing. I started to get the puffiness while still natural as well. With talking to Hacks and Sylar I got some good information. I think some people's bodies just naturally produce higher levels of estrogen and are more sensitive/prone to gyno. I am in that boat. So by the the end of my course I noticed some slight coning and a little lump under my nipple. I decided to attack it while off cycle. I have been off for three monthes. Hacks advised me to try Letro. I must say that, for me, it has been slow progress but in the last week I have definately noticed a difference. I am in the 4th week of using it. From what I have read it takes some time for blood levels to come up to speed. I am guessing that is why it took so long to start seeing some progress. I plan to run it another 2 weeks. Hoping by then it will be sorted.
> 
> So you may want to try Letro. Just a suggestion


Hey pal,

Thanks for that.. its actually made me think better.. Always spoke to my gf about it.. as I related things like that too her as shes always wanted this done to her or that you know and Ive always never understood but its something that bugs her.. Now i have this on my chest and its been bugging me for years but nothing like it has done over the last few weeks! Partner is now saying, now you know how I felt, which is so true!

My only concern being I am running nolva at the minute and im pretty sure thats going to do nothing, you reckon its safe to switch straight to letro? I also have the cone shaped puffyness and it looks sihte to be frank, I hate it.. I pray for a cold day lol!


----------



## hackskii

If the lump is far from the nipple, I doubt it is gyno.

But, I had a lump on my wrist that went away after treating my gyno with letro.

So with that said, nothing surprises me.


----------



## Goose

hackskii said:


> If the lump is far from the nipple, I doubt it is gyno.
> 
> But, I had a lump on my wrist that went away after treating my gyno with letro.
> 
> So with that said, nothing surprises me.


Werent sure if that was aimed at me Hackskii but just to clarify I dont have any lumps, just cone shaped puffy nipples :lol:

ahh makes me laugh just say those words! :cursing:


----------



## Guest

Goose said:


> Hey pal,
> 
> Thanks for that.. its actually made me think better.. Always spoke to my gf about it.. as I related things like that too her as shes always wanted this done to her or that you know and Ive always never understood but its something that bugs her.. Now i have this on my chest and its been bugging me for years but nothing like it has done over the last few weeks! Partner is now saying, now you know how I felt, which is so true!
> 
> My only concern being I am running nolva at the minute and im pretty sure thats going to do nothing, you reckon its safe to switch straight to letro? I also have the cone shaped puffyness and it looks sihte to be frank, I hate it.. I pray for a cold day lol!


It is my understanding that the nolva only blocks estrogen binding to that area, but it wont do anything for what's already there.

I think if you decide to use the Letro you should definately stop the nolva. Hopefully Hacks chimes in here with some advice..

What so you think Hacks? Would Letro be a viable option for Goose?



hackskii said:


> If the lump is far from the nipple, I doubt it is gyno.
> 
> But, I had a lump on my wrist that went away after treating my gyno with letro.
> 
> So with that said, nothing surprises me.


The lump I have is actually below my nipple. I have definately noticed it shrinking in the last week. Actaully it is almost gone.


----------



## Goose

Yeah im definately going to try and source some letro from somewhere.. its worth a shot.. Id be stupid to start another cycle without getting this sorted first.. My next course which was a big one.. im talking JW big :lol: therefore Id prob need to take something alongside to help it attacking me again!


----------



## Guest

Goose said:


> Yeah im definately going to try and source some letro from somewhere.. its worth a shot.. Id be stupid to start another cycle without getting this sorted first.. My next course which was a big one.. im talking JW big :lol: therefore Id prob need to take something alongside to help it attacking me again!


Yeah I would definately try to get it sorted first.... and I think it is also smart to have an A.I. for your next course. I used Adex for the first few monthes of my cycle and then tried Aromasin for the second few monthes. I actually felt a little better with the aromasin and think I will use that in the future. I dont think my gyno symptoms got to much worse on cycle and I would attribute that to the A.I. But I think it is really difficult to try and deal with clearing gyno up, while on cycle


----------



## hackskii

Letro works the best at reversing gyno @ 2.5mg ED.

Worked for me big time, even the lump in my wrist which I thought was ganglean syst(sp).

Its worth a try but watch out for stiff joints and crushed libido.

Do not forget to taper that, other wise estrogen rebound will reverse all you just did.


----------



## Goose

hackskii said:


> Letro works the best at reversing gyno @ 2.5mg ED.
> 
> Worked for me big time, even the lump in my wrist which I thought was ganglean syst(sp).
> 
> Its worth a try but watch out for stiff joints and crushed libido.
> 
> Do not forget to taper that, other wise estrogen rebound will reverse all you just did.


Thanks hackskii!

I gather you mean taper down rather than both taper up and down? Is it ok to run for long periods? Until gone? I'm willing to give the sex drive a bashin for this haha hopefully something positive will

come from it. What would you reccomend the best dose to taper down to until coming off completley?


----------



## Guest

Goose said:


> Thanks hackskii!
> 
> I gather you mean taper down rather than both taper up and down? Is it ok to run for long periods? Until gone? I'm willing to give the sex drive a bashin for this haha hopefully something positive will
> 
> come from it. What would you reccomend the best dose to taper down to until coming off completley?


I am tapering down the last week. I have been running 2.5mg ed throughout. The last week I will go 2.5, 2.0, 1.5, 1.0, 1.0, 0.5, 0.5

Goose.. Don't be discouraged if you dont see much happening right away. Hacks said that he noticed a difference in the first couple weeks. It took me much longer, but it is definately doing something now in my 4th week


----------



## BOK

ba baracuss said:


> I would go to the doctor mate TBH. It may well be gyno but I would get it checked first if I were you.


Great thats all I need, a chance for my wife and daughter to say "I told you so!!!"

I'm away from the UK at the moment so it'll have to wait for a week or two before I can get to an English speaking Doc.

Thanks


----------



## Goose

hackskii said:


> Letro works the best at reversing gyno @ 2.5mg ED.
> 
> Worked for me big time, even the lump in my wrist which I thought was ganglean syst(sp).
> 
> Its worth a try but watch out for stiff joints and crushed libido.
> 
> Do not forget to taper that, other wise estrogen rebound will reverse all you just did.





ZEUS said:


> I am tapering down the last week. I have been running 2.5mg ed throughout. The last week I will go 2.5, 2.0, 1.5, 1.0, 1.0, 0.5, 0.5
> 
> Goose.. Don't be discouraged if you dont see much happening right away. Hacks said that he noticed a difference in the first couple weeks. It took me much longer, but it is definately doing something now in my 4th week


sounds perfect ZEUS, appreciate the help an you too hackskii, I'll try get some asap and give it a go. Just a thought as nolva prevents estrogen build up would it not be smart to run it alongside a cycle?


----------



## ba baracuss

hackskii said:


> That does not sound like gyno to me, lymph gland perhaps?


That's what I was thinking - lymph glands are under the armpit IIRC. Of course AIs and SERMs are used to combat breast cancer anyway, so the lump is likely to be caused by estrogen and they may sort it, but what it actually is I wouldn't know.

Goose if you think it's just fat from pseudogyno have you looked into yohimbine?

I have a minor case of something similar and mean to try some - it basically helps break down the fats stored in areas like the chest and the love handles because it works against A2 receptors, which are tied in with estrogen and prevent fat being burned as fuel.

You would need a calorie deficit but the science says it should work.


----------



## mr.buffnstuff

Hi all, ive booked myself in to be assessed for gyno on the 25th with my GP ive always had it and it has reuined my life everything revolves around covering it up. so now ive FINALLY got the balls to see someone about it! i hope all goes well i just want to go under that blade n get it sorted out! ill keep you all posted!!


----------



## hackskii

Goose said:


> sounds perfect ZEUS, appreciate the help an you too hackskii, I'll try get some asap and give it a go. Just a thought as nolva prevents estrogen build up would it not be smart to run it alongside a cycle?


Nolva only blocks the estrogen receptors and wont do a thing for overall estrogen.

Run an AI for estrogen management during the cycle.


----------



## Goose

ba baracuss said:


> That's what I was thinking - lymph glands are under the armpit IIRC. Of course AIs and SERMs are used to combat breast cancer anyway, so the lump is likely to be caused by estrogen and they may sort it, but what it actually is I wouldn't know.
> 
> Goose if you think it's just fat from pseudogyno have you looked into yohimbine?
> 
> I have a minor case of something similar and mean to try some - it basically helps break down the fats stored in areas like the chest and the love handles because it works against A2 receptors, which are tied in with estrogen and prevent fat being burned as fuel.
> 
> You would need a calorie deficit but the science says it should work.


Well I had looked at yohimbine but have found it hard to find the real stuff.. most is only small percentages of yohimbine.. It is interesting.. Do you know where online sell pure yohimbine as im sure theres two different types?

Letro is on its way and ill will probably run it alongside my course to ensure nothing gets worse.. although ive never known it to get worse from doing gear its just been there if it makes sense.


----------



## hackskii

Careful with the yohimbe and yohimbine stuff, it can jack blood pressure big time.

I used to get it raw by the oz and I swear you have to be careful with that stuff.

I capped up some 00 caps and my buddies were up for days.

Never measured my BP but it was way way high.


----------



## ba baracuss

Goose said:


> Well I had looked at yohimbine but have found it hard to find the real stuff.. most is only small percentages of yohimbine.. It is interesting.. Do you know where online sell pure yohimbine as im sure theres two different types?
> 
> Letro is on its way and ill will probably run it alongside my course to ensure nothing gets worse.. although ive never known it to get worse from doing gear its just been there if it makes sense.


Iron dragon had some pure stuff I think but they seem to have stupid shipping costs. I don't know whether taking it orally is better or the topical stuff that macro does. Topical makes sense but is quite expensive.


----------



## mr.buffnstuff

Hi people, Iv suffered for 22 years now with Gyno not through and AAS use but just naturally, i died 2 months ago and they got me going again so im on my second life. Now i refuse to let it ruin my life. iv mustered up the courage and im off to see my GP at 9:40 today! ill let you know what i get told.

My friend thinks they might try to put me on bromocriptine, But he has told me to say when i was working abroad they put me on bromocriptine and it didnt work.

I want the surgery so bad. i quite literally dream of being able to go swimming or go on the beach with my top off and things! Fingers crossed because im quite literally praying she tells me the news i want to hear (surgery!!)

ALSO if i got the surgery and went under the knife, they removed the fat and all breast material am i more or less subceptible to getting gyno from AAS use??


----------



## hackskii

I think if they remove the gland then you wont have that much of a chance of getting gyno.

Perhaps you just store more fat in your chest?


----------



## mr.buffnstuff

Well, i saw the GP, she had a good grope and stuff. My friends brother went there with pubertal gyno, and all they did was put him on bromocriptine which did nothing, iv tried nolva with no joy so i told her i had already tried these whilst working abroad.

Im having a blood test on tuesday for hormone levels, if everything seems ok it looks like surgery is the only thing they can offer me.

Then its a matter of writing to the head of the county, and beg and plead for low priority surgery! Fingers crossed people!


----------



## marmite

Right then, i managed to get hold of some exemestane and fingers crossed, hopefully it should shift these puffy nips

Im currently about to run another cycle, question is should i wait till after the cycle to use the exemestane!? Or run the exemestane thro the cycle, then run the nolvadex for PCT.

The reason i ask is i have always have a bit of gyno so should i really wait until my body is back producing its normal estrogen levels to try and reverse gyno other than when im in a cycle and estrogen levels are high.

i got told exemestane is quite strong just to take on its own, tbh i dont care as long as it reverses.

cheers guys


----------



## marmite

anyone???


----------



## hackskii

Me pesonally, id try to reverse it now.


----------



## SPIKE1982

Ive been wondering the same as marmite except was thinking about using letro as i have some lol..I dont ever get sore lumps or anything these days but thinking back a few yr ago i did but didnt really do anything excepet abit of nolva now and again (wrong i know now)however i think i do have gyno which has been there since then as my nipple area always looks puffy (not sore) and when i look down my chest toward my nipple that area does kick out alittle into kind of cone shape...

Hackskii do you think it would be a good idea for me to see if the letro would do anything to it bro? Im currently just into week 2 of a cycle,wondering what doses i should try?? and for how long should i stay on it mate?? Ive read all the info about it being harsh on sex drive etc so should i start low i.e 1/4 of a tab ed (2.5mg tabs) or will i need to be abit more aggressive at the star?? any advice appriciated bro...

Jamie


----------



## saaam

Goose said:


> Werent sure if that was aimed at me Hackskii but just to clarify I dont have any lumps, just cone shaped puffy nipples :lol:
> 
> ahh makes me laugh just say those words! :cursing:


I have them too, not really noticeable even when I have my top off, but I know theyre there. good to read comments above, got some Letro coming, 100 2.5mg tabs so will start that in a few days and run til its gone!

Cheers guys


----------



## SPIKE1982

SPIKE1982 said:


> Ive been wondering the same as marmite except was thinking about using letro as i have some lol..I dont ever get sore lumps or anything these days but thinking back a few yr ago i did but didnt really do anything excepet abit of nolva now and again (wrong i know now)however i think i do have gyno which has been there since then as my nipple area always looks puffy (not sore) and when i look down my chest toward my nipple that area does kick out alittle into kind of cone shape...
> 
> Hackskii do you think it would be a good idea for me to see if the letro would do anything to it bro? Im currently just into week 2 of a cycle,wondering what doses i should try?? and for how long should i stay on it mate?? Ive read all the info about it being harsh on sex drive etc so should i start low i.e 1/4 of a tab ed (2.5mg tabs) or will i need to be abit more aggressive at the star?? any advice appriciated bro...
> 
> Jamie


BUMP for Hacks if possible.... :beer:


----------



## bassmonster

marmite said:


> Right then, i managed to get hold of some exemestane and fingers crossed, hopefully it should shift these puffy nips
> 
> Im currently about to run another cycle, question is should i wait till after the cycle to use the exemestane!? Or run the exemestane thro the cycle, then run the nolvadex for PCT.
> 
> The reason i ask is i have always have a bit of gyno so should i really wait until my body is back producing its normal estrogen levels to try and reverse gyno other than when im in a cycle and estrogen levels are high.
> 
> i got told exemestane is quite strong just to take on its own, tbh i dont care as long as it reverses.
> 
> cheers guys





SPIKE1982 said:


> Ive been wondering the same as marmite except was thinking about using letro as i have some lol..I dont ever get sore lumps or anything these days but thinking back a few yr ago i did but didnt really do anything excepet abit of nolva now and again (wrong i know now)however i think i do have gyno which has been there since then as my nipple area always looks puffy (not sore) and when i look down my chest toward my nipple that area does kick out alittle into kind of cone shape...
> 
> Hackskii do you think it would be a good idea for me to see if the letro would do anything to it bro? Im currently just into week 2 of a cycle,wondering what doses i should try?? and for how long should i stay on it mate?? Ive read all the info about it being harsh on sex drive etc so should i start low i.e 1/4 of a tab ed (2.5mg tabs) or will i need to be abit more aggressive at the star?? any advice appriciated bro...
> 
> Jamie


How long have you guys had your gyno for? like myself, it it has been there since puberty then letro will do nothing..well, it didn't to anything for me and left me with zero sex drive, aching joints and feeling cr4p in general. i know it's not what you want to hear but that's what i experienced. i'll be going for surgery soon to get rid of my moobs...


----------



## hackskii

Well guys some times some men tend to hold more fat in the chest so losing weight would be a bit helpfull here.

As far as getting rid of nipple fat and an AI, not sure, lumps under sure, but fatty deposits around the nipple making it look puffy, I cant say but at a guess id say no.


----------



## marmite

bassmonster said:


> How long have you guys had your gyno for? like myself, it it has been there since puberty then letro will do nothing..well, it didn't to anything for me and left me with zero sex drive, aching joints and feeling cr4p in general. i know it's not what you want to hear but that's what i experienced. i'll be going for surgery soon to get rid of my moobs...


I guess ive had it since puberty but it was not so noticeable back then as i was really skinny. It looks worse now really as i have trained my chest and its pushed it out a bit, the top of my chest is solid it's just bottom half and behind the nipple. I'm hope this exemestane will work, i hear its good for water retention as well as it feels watery behind there so hope it will shift it?!?!<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" /><o></o>

<o></o>

If it don't im going to hit the C.V and diet hard try cut off all fat on my body! I could not afford surgery but it really pees me off as the rest of my body looks good but i don't like taking my top off (unless its cold lol) because of this <o></o>


----------



## bassmonster

marmite said:


> If it don't im going to hit the C.V and diet hard try cut off all fat on my body! I could not afford surgery but it really pees me off as the rest of my body looks good but i don't like taking my top off (unless its cold lol) because of this <o></o>


CV and dieting will certainly help but i'm afraid to say that nothing apart from surgery will get rid of it....is your gyno bad as mine?


----------



## marmite

bassmonster said:


> CV and dieting will certainly help but i'm afraid to say that nothing apart from surgery will get rid of it....is your gyno bad as mine?


if yr talking about yr avatar then yrs dont look too bad bud, yr chest looks more Sculpted and yr quite a bit bigger than me.

saying that mine dont look to bad from the front id say mine looks worse from the side, its only the cone/puffy nipps that make mine look weird.


----------



## Deano!

hackskii said:


> Gynecomastia-Male Breast Development.
> 
> By: Bruce J. Nadler M.D.
> 
> Several years ago my answering service called to tell me the number of obscene telephone calls that were coming through on my line alarmed them. They went on to explain that the calls all started on normally but then all of these young men started to use foul language. They couldn't believe the number of different people doing this. I thought for a moment and then asked if the term they heard was "bitch tits." "Yes that is exactly what they say" was the reply.
> 
> With a big smile I explained to them that these were just patients expressing a medical condition. Gynecomastia, bitch tits or "the bodybuilder's tumor" all mean the same thing, the embarrassing development of male breasts.
> 
> Gynecomastia
> 
> The treatment of gynecomastia has become a specific interest of mine due to all the bodybuilders I treat. I have long ago set the world's record in performing these surgeries and have lectured to other surgeons on my techniques.
> 
> It is a problem that has existed through antiquity. Ancient hieroglyphics show the condition on several of the Pharaohs. It is not all that uncommon. The Navy did a study during World War II and classified one quarter of their recruits as having excessive breast tissue.
> 
> Seated Statue Of Amenhotep IV (Akhenaten)
> 
> Dynasty 18, 1353-1337 BC
> 
> Click To Enlarge.
> 
> Causes
> 
> The condition can occur naturally or as a side effect of anabolic steroids and other medications. It has also been implicated with the excessive use of marijuana.
> 
> The use of anabolic steroids is especially implicated. Of course not all steroids will cause it, only the ones that aromatize. Anadrol, Sustanon and Dianabol are especially known causes. Some others are weaker stimulators and are dose related.
> 
> When gynecomastia occurs naturally, it is a slower process and usually consists of both glandular and fatty tissue. Anabolic steroid induces gynecomastia occurs much more rapidly and is usually a sheet of pure glandular tissue. Of course there is a range between these extremes
> 
> When the body senses too much testosterone or a testosterone like substance, it tries to reduce the level by a process called aromitization. This converts the testosterone to estradiol, an estrogen like substance. All men have some glandular tissue. If there is also genetic receptor sensitivity, the increased estradiol level will stimulate this tissue to grow.
> 
> Symptoms
> 
> It is first noticed as some sensitivity in the nipple area often going on to real discomfort. As the tissue further develops, the area will swell and extend laterally under the arm. The condition can run the range from a mass under the nipple with perhaps some coning to fully developed breasts.
> 
> It is most noticeable when you least want it to be. If the weather is cold, everything tightens up. But in the warm weather, when you want to take your shirt off, it all pouts forward and is noticeable.
> 
> I've lost track of the number of my patients who continuously pinched themselves or used ice cube and cold water to keep things from being too noticeable. Estrogen blockers like Nolvadex or Arimidex can prevent the occurrence but only surgery can cure it.
> 
> Click Here For The Top Selling Estrogen Blockers.
> 
> Surgery
> 
> The surgery consists of a combination of liposuction and direct glandular excision through a small incision at the nipple border. Beware of any surgeon who claims to be able to treat it with liposuction alone. I have had to operate on many patients who have had this previous surgery elsewhere.
> 
> Liposuction merely removes the fatty component and after the swelling subsides, you merely have a smaller version of what was there before.
> 
> I have also seen patients scarred across the entire chest and others who have had parts of their pectoral muscles removed.
> 
> It is done under general anesthesia and lasts about 2 hours. Liposuction is first done to remove the fatty component allowing the glandular tissue to condense. A small incision is then made at the lower nipple border.
> 
> The glandular tissue is then carefully removed tracing the extension under the arm. Too many inexperienced surgeons fail to do this creating a crater in the middle of the chest. A small amount of glandular tissue is left just behind the nipple to prevent collapse and indentation.
> 
> Often suction drains are used for the first few post-operative days to prevent fluid collection is the pocket previously occupied by the tissue. I do all the suturing with dissolving, buried sutures to minimize scarring and avoid that railroad track look. A compression vest is worn for several weeks to control the skin shrinkage.
> 
> Post Surgery Health
> 
> It is very important to be off any anabolic cycle for at least 6 weeks prior to the surgery. Anabolic steroid side effects such as slowing of blood clotting and increased blood pressure add to the possibility of surgical complications. In addition altered liver chemistry due to some anabolics can add to the risk of anesthesia.
> 
> Low impact aerobic activity can resume in a week. Light weight training can resume in 3 weeks with the exception of chest and back. Chest and back can start lightly at 4 weeks and full routines can be resumed at 6 weeks.
> 
> It is my greatest pleasure when the patients can tell me they can happily walk around with their shirts off.
> 
> For more information I can be contacted at 1-800-445-0505 or through my web site at Bruce J. Nadler M.D. Aesthetic Plastic Surgery.
> 
> Bruce J. Nadler M.D.


 Ive never really thought too much about this, but now i realise i have this too.

Anyone here in the UK recommend anyone to see? how much did this procedure cost!? (sorry not read all replies if this has been already said)


----------



## bassmonster

Deano! said:


> Ive never really thought too much about this, but now i realise i have this too.
> 
> Anyone here in the UK recommend anyone to see? how much did this procedure cost!? (sorry not read all replies if this has been already said)


If you go abroad, it'll cost somewhere in the region of about £1500.

i'll be trying my luck with GP on Wednesday which i highly doubt will offer anything on the NHS but worth a try..if not, i'll going private and paying a shade over 4k.

i have an consultation with Dr Alex Karidis in April...

http://www.nipntuck.co.uk/


----------



## BlackCoffee

Hey BassMonster...

your gyno is noticable and its dragging down the pec.

I had my consultation with Dr Karidis today - he was wonderful- and ive booked my appt for May....we'll be in good hands im sure!


----------



## bassmonster

BlackCoffee said:


> Hey BassMonster...
> 
> *your gyno is noticable and its dragging down the pec.*
> 
> I had my consultation with Dr Karidis today - he was wonderful- and ive booked my appt for May....we'll be in good hands im sure!


Haha, tell me about it, it's draggging me down too...lol

Did Dr Karidis talk to you about how the surgery will be performed? like having gland removal lipo etc?


----------



## BlackCoffee

bassmonster said:


> Haha, tell me about it, it's draggging me down too...lol
> 
> Did Dr Karidis talk to you about how the surgery will be performed? like having gland removal lipo etc?


its all good dude, mine is worse (when glands are warm)...i havent even touched gear and I have it, what a bitch lol..

Karidis will assess you personally and tell you. I cant say for sure in your case. It will be gland removal with possible lipo says, incisions under armpit and under aereola.

His staff and the whole place is all well organised - ought to be at the price we're paying. :thumb:


----------



## b.builder

After reading most of the posts from people i would of thought more of you would have had heard of progsterone gyno.That is what iv got!

My gyno lumps are like 2 pound coins and are sore as F***.

I have been back at the gym and back on the gear for 6weeks now after being of for 7years.

My lumps have been with me since my older days when i used to train and abuise gear.

I was taking 1000mg aweek of sust and deca and the mean greens.

I was also taking tamox 40mg aday.

I was on sust for over 2years solid.

Now im back training my titts are hurting and getting bigger,i have some caber on the way which is the last resort before surgery.


----------



## bassmonster

b.builder said:


> Now im back training my titts are hurting and getting bigger,i have some *caber* on the way which is the last resort before surgery.


Not heard of that before mate, what is it?


----------



## hackskii

Cabaser/dostinex..................


----------



## b.builder

cabergoline.

Type it on the net and have a read up m8.

Im not 100% sure the inside out of them myself.


----------



## usc277

i was using tren,test and dbol kickstart. and used some deca

puffy nipples,cone like, takes away from my pecs and to add insult to injury, i have non symmetrical pecs !!! so add gyno to that and my suicidal thoughts start to kick in...

i have gained 5 kg on the above 8 week cycle. i dont want to lose them..

i have adex, should i take 1 mg/day and will that hinder my gains ?

someone please advise before i literally stab my self in the chest !


----------



## bassmonster

usc277 said:


> i was using tren,test and dbol kickstart. and used some deca
> 
> puffy nipples,cone like, takes away from my pecs and to add insult to injury, i have non symmetrical pecs !!! so add gyno to that and my suicidal thoughts start to kick in...
> 
> i have gained 5 kg on the above 8 week cycle. i dont want to lose them..
> 
> i have adex, should i take 1 mg/day and will that hinder my gains ?
> 
> someone please advise before i literally stab my self in the chest !


Dude, there are much more important things in life than the aesthetic look of our physique. If you are that worried, surgery is the only way forward. you'll need to have deep pockets though but anything that stops you from feeingl like you want to take your life, then every penny is worth it.


----------



## Snakebo1969

Hi Guys,

I would appreciate some feedback on my "problem" please, don't know if it's gyno or not.

I am in my second week of a cycle (first cycle in 8 years), of 750mg sust and 30mg Winstrol ED. I have been taking Nolva each day. At the end of the first week my nipples got a bit sensitive, I doubled the Nolva for a couple of days and it went away. My nipples have remained pretty erect since then.

I weighed myself this morning, I have put on 6lb in the last week, obviously water (though the winny would help prevent that!).

I am carrying quite a bit of extra bf, especially round the belly and at the bottom of my pecs.

I noticed tonight, that my pecs feel "flabbier" than normal, especially the right, it feels like there is a fairly soft capsule in amongst the fat.

1. Is this gyno, or the start of? It doesn't feel like a lump? Is it just the extra water?

2. I have ordered an AI, Aromasin (no adex available). Should I continue with the cycle, or just stop?

3. If I do stop, what PCT should I do after two weeks on (I have clomid and nolav).

4. What dosage of Aromasin would you recommend?

Sorry for all the questions, thanks in advance for your input.

S


----------



## jimbo1436114513

hackskii said:


> Cabaser/dostinex..................


In you're opinion do they really work?


----------



## mhoz

where can i get some novl ova the internet my source can only get gear and im getting gyno.. please help!


----------



## NickC

From what I have heard they are good to go for PCT mate. Suprised your source cannot get PCT stuff though!


----------



## Phil D

im nearly 5 weeks into my first cycle of test e 500mg/week and dbol 40mg/day kickstart (for 30 days), and im worried about gyno.

Since puberty ive always had these small 'disks' under each nip, nothing noticable and iv always though it was pretty normal. Recentry it feels as if these 'disks' have increased in size slightly but it may just be paranoia...

I have had no itchyness or tenderness so im unsure what to do, im currently taking 0.5mg of adex EOD. The reason im worried about gyno is that my npis get a slightly 'folded' look when i flex my chest, nothing massively noticable but if it is the early onset of something id like to do something about it whilst i can!


----------



## cashconverter

How much do people usually pay to go under the knife for gyno surgery?


----------



## JCMUSCLE

on average in uk to go private is between £2800 - £4000

however places like poland do the same surgery for around £1000-£1500 if you look in right places


----------



## makdappa

can anyone recommend any surgeons in the uk preferably london who can perform this surgery well. Please I am getting abit desperate now i hae posted a thread in this section but had no reply! :crying:


----------



## bassmonster

makdappa said:


> can anyone recommend any surgeons in the uk preferably london who can perform this surgery well. Please I am getting abit desperate now i hae posted a thread in this section but had no reply! :crying:


hi mate,

Dr Alex Karidis http://www.nipntuck.co.uk/ has performed many gyno removal ops and highly recommended. I know a couple of people who have had surgery done by him with excellent results...

however, be prepared to pay £4230....


----------



## ba baracuss

I came across this site recently: http://www.riverbanksclinic.co.uk/man-boobs.aspx?gclid=CNeN0c_djaICFVVo4wodbXHrUA

They do a procedure called vaser lipo which basically metabolises fat pockets via ultrasound. I thought it was relevant to yourself bassmonster as you appear to have mostly fat. Worth looking into IMO.


----------



## bassmonster

Thanks for that BA...not come across this procedure before but will look into.....just don't like the idea the procedure being performed under local aneasthetic.....bit of a chicken...lol...


----------



## makdappa

nice 1 bassmonster.This morning I have phoned up his clinic and book a consulation for this wednesday (got a cancellation- most prob have to pull a sickie from work lol)

His website is very detailed not like others who have just seem to have got there info from wikepedia!

It would be nice to hear something from the guys who have had it done by Alex Karidis before the consult. Just to get some reassurance. (fingers x yous come on here!)

His consulation fee is also a donation to charity which I just thought even though he will make it up from the 4k he charges its the thought that counts! seems like a top PS


----------



## ba baracuss

bassmonster said:


> Thanks for that BA...not come across this procedure before but will look into.....just don't like the idea the procedure being performed under local aneasthetic.....bit of a chicken...lol...


I saw a TV program recently where some bird had a laser treatment and then did some cardio to burn off the fat. Measurements showed what she had lost. It was in london so worth looking into for you - no surgery at all there.


----------



## crayzee

I had real bad gyno, I was teased and bullied and also beaten up as a result when I was in school!! I was also very over weight. Which did not help. My man boobs stayed with me all the way till I was 27, I was using ganja, I knew it prob had some effect on my gyno but I developed it before I even started smoking so continued. Until one day when my ex left me with the kids got so depressed about the way I look and the fact I used to wear 2 jumpers in the summer to hide myself. Also revolted that the fact my kids would have grown up being embarassed about there daddy who had mummys bits, I started woking out and totaly changed my diet and lifestyle. Now my gyno is a part of the past. I still have some small beast lumps left but its not noticable at all, you can just see pecs. I can finaly take my shirt off in public and go swimming etc with my babies...


----------



## bassmonster

crayzee said:


> I had real bad gyno, I was teased and bullied and also beaten up as a result when I was in school!! I was also very over weight. Which did not help. My man boobs stayed with me all the way till I was 27, I was using ganja, I knew it prob had some effect on my gyno but I developed it before I even started smoking so continued. Until one day when my ex left me with the kids got so depressed about the way I look and the fact I used to wear 2 jumpers in the summer to hide myself. Also revolted that the fact my kids would have grown up being embarassed about there daddy who had mummys bits, I started woking out and totaly changed my diet and lifestyle. Now my gyno is a part of the past. I still have some small beast lumps left but its not noticable at all, you can just see pecs. I can finaly take my shirt off in public and go swimming etc with my babies...


You lost your gyno through sheer execercise and diet? well done dude  , I can't personally see that working for me...


----------



## crayzee

Dont get me wrong! It was not easy, not easy at all. Had to give up alot of things, Drugs which done me a massive favour and all that junk food processed crap. Which again was a good thing, and realy had the determination to do it, was so fed up of looking at myself like that, and my kids gave me all the motivation I needed. Before I started I did visit my GP and dietician who advsd me that diet and exercise sometimes can help rid of gyno. It worked, I never used any steriod or still dont today. I put so much bad stuff in my body and saw quite a few of my mates go mad on steriods and F**k them selves up it put me off. Now I know I am not like some of you huge guys on here muscle wise and I do realy want to be, but for the mo I am fit, toned and look good I think with no shirt on.


----------



## Shreds

Good man keep up the good work. reps.


----------



## ANABOLIC-EDGE

After some advice guys.

I have had some gyno flare up, itchy sensitive nipples, randomly comes and goes, this made me feel around the nipples and noticed a small hard lump under both nippple, couldnt say how long its been there, as this was the first time I had felt them looking for this for a long time, should there naturally be any type of lump behind the nipple?

Been on Tren, masteron and test for about 3 weeks and then this Gyno kicks in, so from the advice of someone on here I drop the Nolva and use Arimidex, I also have Letro avalible today, but started on the Arimidex about 3 days ago.

So what do people advise as i'd 'like' to stay on this cycle for a little longer, is this plain crazy, or could it be done in a safe way?


----------



## hackskii

How much adex you using, and how often?


----------



## ANABOLIC-EDGE

I realise that I should be on 1mg a day, but ive gone for one mg am and one pm.


----------



## hackskii

Is the gyno symptoms going away?


----------



## ANABOLIC-EDGE

They have lessened, however not sure if that is due to me stopping the gear. Really tempted to go back on, but dont want to regret it.

Can say 1mg Adex ED be enough to stop new gyno and also cure existing gyno? Need answers........needle poised!!!


----------



## hackskii

I know a guy that had some pretty bad gyno and he reversed it with 1mg ed of adex.


----------



## shekhar97

i m using masteron and testosterone 250 mg + neurabol 25 mg

i have used testosterone, d-anabol, neurabol before

after using all this

i have an extra fat on my chest

it looks like small breasts

can u frnds suggest me what shud i use to prevent this


----------



## Incredible Bulk

last friday i noticed i had really bad itchy nipples and sensitive...checked saturday and found a small lump under the nips, talking half a pea size.

been running 2.5mg letro ED since sunday

right side has shrunk to minute size, barely feel it...left side still there.

libido has gone from horny to dead, joints are aching and tired all the time now.

Letro is so harsh!

going to run it until left side has shrunk then run 1.25mg ED for a week then 2.5mg E3D throughout the course.... sound wise?


----------



## hackskii

Letro is very strong.

I would dose ED but just lower the dose.

Go figure, a year down the road I got a lump under my nipple.

Strange how I never was gyno prone before am getting a lump and not even on cycle.

Sucks


----------



## Incredible Bulk

lol very true....ran a cycle for a year and not one hint of gyno

this year? 4 weeks in and itchy itchy


----------



## Incredible Bulk

just added 0.5mg caber into the mix and fck me is this stuff strong....

today the lump feels smaller already and i woke up with a raging stiffy lol.

(sex drive has been zero since using letro)

win win baby ...... win win


----------



## OJay

What's caber mate?


----------



## hackskii

Dostinex/cabaser, it is a prolactin inhibitor.


----------



## 2011

I've got small lumps under both nipples from when I was younger and have never done a cycle...yet. Does this make me more predisposed to gyno in that case?

As I would be running low doses (500mg test/week) is this a concern if i was using an AI? or is it something to be really mindful of?


----------



## Suitelf11

Run an AI during your cycle, arimidex 0.5mg EOD. You're obviously gyno prone if you already have small lumps. 

If it get worse, 20mg nolva ED.


----------



## hackskii

Suitelf11 said:


> Run an AI during your cycle, arimidex 0.5mg EOD. You're obviously gyno prone if you already have small lumps.
> 
> If it get worse, 20mg nolva ED.


Only problem with that is the fact that nolva will lower blood plasma levles of AI's by 28% to 38% depending on the AI.

With the exception of aromasin.

I would just up the dose of Adex instead.

I dont like the idea of nolva during a cycle myself unless that is the only thing you can get your hands on.


----------



## Suitelf11

What would you suggest upping it to if it gets worse, 0.5mg EOD to 0.5mg ED?


----------



## Conscript

Hackskii...How long did your mate run adex for to reverse gyno...did he run the said dose while on cycle, what are the pro's and con's of running AI this high whilst on/off cycle? How long roughly did he have the gyno before he reversed it?

I got suspected gyno....looks like it-maybe....but no pain, tenderness, itchyness...could be over-hype though, got about 20%+ BF though, too many bulking courses....cutting just now to see if it's just BF...My first cutt too...

Sorry for all the questions but I do worry


----------



## Suitelf11

Off-cycle I'd rather run nolva to reverse gyno.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18357357


----------



## Conscript

Suitelf11 said:


> Off-cycle I'd rather run nolova to reverse gyno.
> 
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18357357


Thanks mate 

Reps :thumb:


----------



## Suitelf11

G-fresh said:


> Thanks mate
> 
> Reps :thumb:


If nolva doesn't do it for you, you'll need letro.


----------



## Conscript

Suitelf11 said:


> If nolva doesn't do it for you, you'll need letro.


If I do have mild gyno...I must of had it for at about a year! Will this treatment still work after this much time?

cheers :thumbup1:


----------



## Suitelf11

G-fresh said:


> If I do have mild gyno...I must of had it for at about a year! Will this treatment still work after this much time?
> 
> cheers :thumbup1:


Yes, but a smaller chance of success.


----------



## Conscript

G-fresh said:


> Hackskii...How long did your mate run adex for to reverse gyno...did he run the said dose while on cycle, what are the pro's and con's of running AI this high whilst on/off cycle? How long roughly did he have the gyno before he reversed it?
> 
> I got suspected gyno....looks like it-maybe....but no pain, tenderness, itchyness...could be over-hype though, got about 20%+ BF though, too many bulking courses....cutting just now to see if it's just BF...My first cutt too...
> 
> Sorry for all the questions but I do worry


:sad:


----------



## rasal

Hi

i was just reading through this thread a little bit and well it got me a little bit paranoid.

someone posted early on about teen onset gyno and im not sure if i do have it.

just after i finished puberty i started getting a bit of fat around my nipple area, which i assumed was was a bit of muscle cos i had been to the gym a few times so i ignored it.

when i proeprly started workign out, i started to notice the fatty area more but i had assumed it was jus normal fat and tried to get rid of it but never could. i dont have any pain or lumps or anything, its jus a bit of excess fat. i also have a relativly low bf i think.

i dunno to be honest, jus reading this thread and doing a few searches made me a bit paranoid. i read on a topic somewhere on this forum that wouldnt really go by itself unless i got some stuff like letro but sadly i have no idea where to get them from. Can any1 tell me if actually is and any other possible solutions?

pic was taken when i was cold but normall like my chest starts to curve like it normally does but as it gets to the bottom the fat sort of shifts the curve if you kno what i mean?

also never taken aas or anything


----------



## bassmonster

hmmm, to be honest, i do think you have a bit..seems like you've got something simililar to me but mine is rather bad. pubertal gyno :-( ...can you feel any kind of tissue when you pinch the around the nipple?


----------



## rasal

nope, its just feels like fat. And considering i dont have much fat anywhere else i thought it was rather odd.


----------



## hackskii

Lyposuction would probably be the fix, not sure if using an AI and diet would fix that.

You are lean actually.


----------



## rasal

oh 

well i guess im gna have to leave it ;/ dont really want liposuction as i dont considery it bad enough to go under the knife

thanks for all your help anyways


----------



## Mark j

Iv got a lump under my left nipple. Just finished my tbol cycle at 80mg ED and done PCT clomid 50/50/50 and nolva 20/20/20. I found a lump under/behind my left nipple. It's a little sore when i feel for it properly. My nipple isn't sore but it's puffy.

Any idea what I should do? I still have nolva and clomid left so should I still take nolva?

Kinda worried about it...it might be worth noting that last Tuesday I hurt it when playin football and last night the ball hit off my nipple and was sore after.


----------



## PHHead

rasal said:


> Hi
> 
> i was just reading through this thread a little bit and well it got me a little bit paranoid.
> 
> someone posted early on about teen onset gyno and im not sure if i do have it.
> 
> just after i finished puberty i started getting a bit of fat around my nipple area, which i assumed was was a bit of muscle cos i had been to the gym a few times so i ignored it.
> 
> when i proeprly started workign out, i started to notice the fatty area more but i had assumed it was jus normal fat and tried to get rid of it but never could. i dont have any pain or lumps or anything, its jus a bit of excess fat. i also have a relativly low bf i think.
> 
> i dunno to be honest, jus reading this thread and doing a few searches made me a bit paranoid. i read on a topic somewhere on this forum that wouldnt really go by itself unless i got some stuff like letro but sadly i have no idea where to get them from. Can any1 tell me if actually is and any other possible solutions?
> 
> pic was taken when i was cold but normall like my chest starts to curve like it normally does but as it gets to the bottom the fat sort of shifts the curve if you kno what i mean?
> 
> also never taken aas or anything
> 
> View attachment 52892


IMO you dont have gyno and I think your just being parranoid, you just seem to have a very well deveoped chest and your quite lean too, if my pecs looked like yours i'd be a very happy man mate lol................don't fcuk about with heavy AI's as the sides can be quite nasty, if it is bothering you that much just go to the doc's and get a proffesonal opional!


----------



## jim2509

mate i can completely get where you are coming from as i have puffy nips from teens although am very lean just have a slight dent in lower pecs at the side followed by puffy nips...the cure?? Well i think excess estrogen has played its part and i've never really tried combatting the problem until now so for 2011 am gonna try running vit b6 500mg and vitex with topical formestane directly over trouble spot for 8 weeks to see if there is any change? If that fails well maybe 12.5mg aromasin eod for 4 weeks followed with a natural test booster but if that fails then save up and gonna head to poland for some surgery as it costs £2000 rather than £4000. I dont see the point of going to the extreme and using letro etc. I once got down to 10 1/2 stone iin 2006 in afghan..guess what i still had puffy nips lol!


----------



## rookie112

i think i have slight gyno, am starting my next cycle of 500mg test e 10 weeks

will run adex 0.5 EOD but was thinking if there is already gyno there will that be enough to stop it from progressing?


----------



## Gilly199

Hey folks, quick question. How long does it take for the pain of gyno to go away on nolva? Woke up one morning with a very painfull left nipple. Im now taking 40mg ED and yes the pain has lessened but its kinda leveled out as such. I know the visual aspect will never the go away as ive had it bad since puberty (thumbs up to bodybuilding for making me aware i had a fixable condition. Surgery granted but still fixable.) I just want to know if im on the right track as its bloody annnoying plus i dont want it looking worse. Its from a 3 week T-bullets that ended about 5 weeks ago.

Any help would be greatly appreciated thanks.


----------



## JoshLarge999

Hacksii..im going under the knife on 2nd feb.

If i ever go back on, would 12.5mcg aromasin be sufficient in most cases to keep gyno at bay?


----------



## hackskii

JoshLarge999 said:


> Hacksii..im going under the knife on 2nd feb.
> 
> If i ever go back on, would 12.5mcg aromasin be sufficient in most cases to keep gyno at bay?


If they take out the gland then I dont see how you would need an AI, with the exception of other sides that you would get from an aromitizable cycle.


----------



## JoshLarge999

thanks, i got told that there still remains microscopic nerves in the chest that can still mean you get gyno?


----------



## hackskii

I dont know really but without the gland, I doubt gyno can come back.

I think what they do is some lyposuction, and then cut the gland out, at this point without out perhaps some fat development issue, I dont think you will get the lump.


----------



## Cam93

let me know how the op goes mate, im close to getting one hopfully soon, i got it bad in my left side, been given some specialy anti-inflammitry pills but i dont have much faith in them tbh


----------



## Origin

I had a lump of gyno in 2004, had it removed on the nhs within 2 weeks of seeing the docs, got referred through the breast cancer clinic!

So had the procedure done on right nipple, small scar underneath quite tidy. However I never had gyno in my left chest, but since the op and after a good few cycles, the left has seem to taken the brunt of gyno, nothing severe, just puffy and looking a bit coned when relaxed. Just gotta watch body fat levels too as this accentuates it. Nolva and Arimidex seem to do the trick to keep it under control though.


----------



## SkemPab

This has happened to me, Im now a 34DD haha only joking, I do still have the lumps in my nipples though, need an OP, the Dr said he wouldnt do it. I have been out of the gym for a long time and now Im training again I think I will push for the surgery, dont want Madonna tits when I start getting the pecs back haha.


----------



## wod

alex.p said:


> If the gyno lump was initially caused by progesterone (say a deca only cycle, or deca/dbol) will the letro still do the same job if this is post cycle?


Same thing im thinking about here... I get mixed things of different people.. I am gyno prone, and at first was under the impression things like arimidex will reduce/stop the risk of gyno occurring when i was on a sust and deca cycle...

Would i be correct in saying that AI and SERMS will only prevent gyno from certain types of gear??. I take it things like test and that, AI will work a treat?. But for deca this is not entirely the case?

Can somebody some this up for me and give a brief explanation? Is it anything to do with one being mainly anabolic while the other is mainly androgenic?..


----------



## RobertGolf

How do you tell if one is prone to gyno? Consudering doing a test cycle byt would like ti kniw if i can tell im prone?

Cheers rob


----------



## hackskii

I get gyno symptoms that feel like I have a splinter in my nipple.

When you touch the nipple it feels like it hurts like a splinter.


----------



## RobertGolf

Cheers man i meant like before i even fet tge syptoms is there a way to tell if im more likly to get gyno . Im musxle everywere exept my chest n stomach lol if u get me,

Sorry to be a pain


----------



## hackskii

No way of knowing really, you either are or are not.

I was never gyno prone but now I am for some crazy reason.


----------



## halliday707

i ran a cycle of dbol and got some gyno from it,added is some nolva and it got it under control and reduced it is size.

lump was not under nipple,but to the side of it about 1 inch away,

i am now on mynext cycle test 500mg EW, i didnt run an AI as i couldnt source one locally and wasnt sure about odering online. Gyno flared up again so i got back on the Nolva.

i am about to add in tren to the cycle, my question is will tren agrovate the gyno any more?

can i keep taking the nolva for the duration of the cycle whilst running tren? or do i need to switch to an AI,and if so which one and at what dose?


----------



## willber328

im running a cycle of deca,testolic an d bol im 5 weeks into it and have noticed slight conning of my nipples there are no lumps but its defo not normal i have nolvadex tabs,20mg ones ive started taking them today will this reverse my symptoms or just stop it from getting any worse?


----------



## hackskii

willber328 said:


> im running a cycle of deca,testolic an d bol im 5 weeks into it and have noticed slight conning of my nipples there are no lumps but its defo not normal i have nolvadex tabs,20mg ones ive started taking them today will this reverse my symptoms or just stop it from getting any worse?


An AI would be a better choice than nolva, some have issues with nolva and deca together.


----------



## willber328

sorry mate but whats an AI im still new to the game, and what kind of issues do folk have when taking novla with deca?


----------



## hackskii

willber328 said:


> sorry mate but whats an AI im still new to the game, and what kind of issues do folk have when taking novla with deca?


AI= Aromatase inhibitor, it stops the conversion of testosterone to estrogen.

For nolva, because it acts as a mild estrogen to some tissues, the deca can act with the nolva to promote gyno in some men.

If you want a more technical answer then I will give it to you.


----------



## willber328

yeah ok mate i catch your drift like, ive been taking my nolva for 3 days and have seen a decrease in gyno already so im haappy with that so far mate


----------



## biglad21

what are the best ai's to source, what are they called?im 5 weeks into testoviron and tren cycle and have jst noticed aa small lup forming?


----------



## Testoholic

has anyone got contact details ect of a surgeon? feel its time to tackle my gyno now.


----------



## matbiggs

hey guys im new to this site, i did a cycle about 18 months ago and now i have found a lump under my right nipple, would or could this be gyno even though its 18 months later?

If so what should i do, should i take letrozole? if so i can only get it in tablet form (2.5mg) and in a packet containing 20 tabs, Is this right?

i thought for the first 7 days taking 2.5mg and then the next 7 days 1/2 the tablet?

Please let me know your thought on this as i would like to get it sorted asap

Thanks

Mat


----------



## matbiggs

hey guys im new to this site, i did a cycle about 18 months ago and now i have found a lump under my right nipple, would or could this be gyno even though its 18 months later?

If so what should i do, should i take letrozole? if so i can only get it in tablet form (2.5mg) and in a packet containing 20 tabs, Is this right?

i thought for the first 7 days taking 2.5mg and then the next 7 days 1/2 the tablet?

Please let me know your thought on this as i would like to get it sorted asap

Thanks

Mat


----------



## hackskii

Well, here is one problem I see.

It can take up to 3 weeks to get blood plasma levels of letro up, now with just 20 tablets you might not have enough to do the job.

Which leads me to another problem, if you don't taper that you can have issues with estrogen rebounding and that would be probably back to square one.

So, get enough to do the job.

Once job is done or you feel it wont be effective you have to taper that down.


----------



## matbiggs

what am i best doing then mate? what about nolva is that any good to get rid of this gyno.

To be honest i dont even know if it is, i have been refered to the breast clinic at the hospital but god knows when i can get in there as the nhs is ****.

what do you sugest the next step is then fella?


----------



## hackskii

matbiggs said:


> what am i best doing then mate? what about nolva is that any good to get rid of this gyno.
> 
> To be honest i dont even know if it is, i have been refered to the breast clinic at the hospital but god knows when i can get in there as the nhs is ****.
> 
> what do you sugest the next step is then fella?


Get enough (AI) to do the job, if it works cool, then taper it down, if it does not work then that's OK, you still will taper it down.

You should see some relief anyway.


----------



## athletic

Just a thought but have any of you guys tried maestron i tried everything else and still got bitch tit but now every course i run i do it with maestron and and dont get it no more no matter how much tess i take


----------



## hackskii

athletic said:


> Just a thought but have any of you guys tried maestron i tried everything else and still got bitch tit but now every course i run i do it with maestron and and dont get it no more no matter how much tess i take


Love the stuff myself, has mild anti-estrogenic properties.

Test, mast, tren is a great synergy cycle.

Mast cranks up my libido crazy.


----------



## Jamzz

will letro/Adex reverse or do anything for 2 year old slight gyno in one pec?


----------



## hackskii

Jamzz said:


> will letro/Adex reverse or do anything for 2 year old slight gyno in one pec?


It is possible.


----------



## BigBarnBoy

Just my 2 pence worth lads...

I have had 2 gyno surgerys one on the NHS and 1 private op over in Poland. I know the distress and worry it causes and if i can help anyone i will do..


----------



## owent

hey guys. After my first cycle 2 years ago i developed burning sensations mainly in my right nipple. I used nolvadex to combat this which cleared it up. I then did my second cycle last year and had no problems. Im on my 8th week of my 3rd cycle which is due to last for 16 weeks and have started getting burning sensations again mainly in my right nipple. I upped my doseage of anastrozole from 0.5mg e3d to 0.5mg ed and took 20mg nolvadex ed for 5 days. The burning sensation has gone now but nipples are still abit puffy and slightly cone shaped. Also i feel a small lump behind my right nipple. Wot should i do? Should i get some letro and stop my current cycle? Cheers


----------



## Growing Lad

BigBarnBoy said:


> Just my 2 pence worth lads...
> 
> I have had 2 gyno surgerys one on the NHS and 1 private op over in Poland. I know the distress and worry it causes and if i can help anyone i will do..


if youd share your experiences of surgery, recovery , results im pretty sure itd be helpful to alot of members considering surgery in the furture, myself included.


----------



## BigBarnBoy

Ok mate my Poland experience is here... LONG READ!

http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/steroid-testosterone-information/135208-medimel-my-big-gyno-surgery-info-thread.html

Nothing on NHS op..it was a disaster that why i went private but i can answer anything on that aswell if you ask...

Results are good now. Scarring dissapearing great barely noticeable, chest back in great shape. HUGE improvement in my mind..it used to rule my life worrying bout it. was back at full strength 4 or 5 weeks post op.


----------



## hackskii

owent said:


> hey guys. After my first cycle 2 years ago i developed burning sensations mainly in my right nipple. I used nolvadex to combat this which cleared it up. I then did my second cycle last year and had no problems. Im on my 8th week of my 3rd cycle which is due to last for 16 weeks and have started getting burning sensations again mainly in my right nipple. I upped my doseage of anastrozole from 0.5mg e3d to 0.5mg ed and took 20mg nolvadex ed for 5 days. The burning sensation has gone now but nipples are still abit puffy and slightly cone shaped. Also i feel a small lump behind my right nipple. Wot should i do? Should i get some letro and stop my current cycle? Cheers


I would drop the nolva and continue with the adex and keep stepping it up till you get that to work.

Nolva can lower blood plasma levels of AI's so that probably isnt the best idea.


----------



## 9inchesofheaven

Does a Gyno lump have to form directly under the nipple, or can it grow beside the nipple too? And how deep are these lumps under the skin?


----------



## hackskii

9inchesofheaven said:


> Does a Gyno lump have to form directly under the nipple, or can it grow beside the nipple too? And how deep are these lumps under the skin?


No, mine is beside the nipple, flat disk shape.


----------



## 9inchesofheaven

hackskii said:


> No, mine is beside the nipple, flat disk shape.


Mine is to the right of my right nipple just past the areola (so it's under bare skin), and is like a small painless ball shape that doesn't move; it almost seems as though it's attached to my pectoral muscle. Could this be gyno or some other thing?


----------



## Growing Lad

mine is ****ing wierd then, it swells up and down and feels like it kinda spiders off in different places! lol


----------



## Growing Lad

BigBarnBoy said:


> Ok mate my Poland experience is here... LONG READ!
> 
> http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/steroid-testosterone-information/135208-medimel-my-big-gyno-surgery-info-thread.html
> 
> Nothing on NHS op..it was a disaster that why i went private but i can answer anything on that aswell if you ask...
> 
> Results are good now. Scarring dissapearing great barely noticeable, chest back in great shape. HUGE improvement in my mind..it used to rule my life worrying bout it. was back at full strength 4 or 5 weeks post op.


really good read mate. how bad was your initial gyno? i have the funds saved up, about 2grand, surgery, flights, hotel? am looking into having it done in october time really with work. how do i get in contact with the surgeons husband?

were u on anything when you had the op? i know aas can cause trouble clotting i think but wondered if hgh is a problem in the run up?

oh yea and what did u do during your 6days in poland? apart from the op did u just stay in the hotel or go out n about?


----------



## 9inchesofheaven

9inchesofheaven said:


> Mine is to the right of my right nipple just past the areola (so it's under bare skin), and is like a small painless ball shape that doesn't move; it almost seems as though it's attached to my pectoral muscle. Could this be gyno or some other thing?


Mr Hackskii, does this then sound like gyno?


----------



## hackskii

9inchesofheaven said:


> Mr Hackskii, does this then sound like gyno?


Sure does, guys nipples dont have lumps under them, could have been from puberty.

I never had gyno before until some cycles later, and then bingo, gyno, reversed it with letro, but post cycle later on it came back. To this day if I push on it, there is a very small lump and a tiny bit of pain. Any use of an AI or SERM takes care of the lump and pain, then a month later or so on it comes back:lol:

My condition is more to do with excess aromatase activity than any thing else.


----------



## HVYDUTY100

hackskii said:


> Sure does, guys nipples dont have lumps under them, could have been from puberty.
> 
> I never had gyno before until some cycles later, and then bingo, gyno, reversed it with letro, but post cycle later on it came back. To this day if I push on it, there is a very small lump and a tiny bit of pain. Any use of an AI or SERM takes care of the lump and pain, then a month later or so on it comes back:lol:
> 
> My condition is more to do with excess aromatase activity than any thing else.


 Hacksi a quick question mate, i did a cycle of test and dbol it was 10 weeks, by about the 8th week i noticed that my nipples had gona a slighty cone shaped, i didnt get any itch or soreness, i examined them and no lumps either, i used some nolvadex to help get rid of the cone effect, anyway now my course has finished i have been off for like 12 weeks-13weeks, yet my nipples are still slightly cone shaped its noticeable when i sit down rather than stand is this gyno


----------



## 9inchesofheaven

hackskii said:


> Sure does, guys nipples dont have lumps under them, could have been from puberty.
> 
> I never had gyno before until some cycles later, and then bingo, gyno, reversed it with letro, but post cycle later on it came back. To this day if I push on it, there is a very small lump and a tiny bit of pain. Any use of an AI or SERM takes care of the lump and pain, then a month later or so on it comes back:lol:
> 
> My condition is more to do with excess aromatase activity than any thing else.


It's just that I thought that gyno had to be under either the nipple or areola (or both) to be gyno. My lump is right next to the areola under bare skin. Painless too.


----------



## hackskii

Chances lads, if cone shaped nipples are of concern, then diet down.

If you are lean, and have cone shaped nipples then probably there is some gyno issues.


----------



## owent

cheers for advice hackskii, iv dropped the nolva and have continued to use anastrozole at 0.5mg per day. At the moment everything seems good, cone shape has disappeared and no burning. If it does return then should i up my dose to 1mg per day? cheers


----------



## hackskii

Well, if estrogen is managed now it probably wont return, but if it does bump up the dose.


----------



## BigBarnBoy

Growing Lad said:


> really good read mate. how bad was your initial gyno? i have the funds saved up, about 2grand, surgery, flights, hotel? am looking into having it done in october time really with work. how do i get in contact with the surgeons husband?
> 
> were u on anything when you had the op? i know aas can cause trouble clotting i think but wondered if hgh is a problem in the run up?
> 
> oh yea and what did u do during your 6days in poland? apart from the op did u just stay in the hotel or go out n about?


Hi mate sorry its taken so long to get back to you..

My gyno wasnt huge but enough to completely take over my life and especially my mind. Personally very noticeable.

Im not advertising in anyway the place i had it done bro do your own research but personally i can hugely praise Medimel. Their gyno web page is -

http://www.plastic-surgery-poland.co.uk/gynecomastia. Contact them via email, details on the site. They speak perfect english.

Not sure about HGH but AAS is very dangerous to be messing around with along with anesthetic. Id stopped everything and done a full PCT but as you read i still had complications. She did tell me the only other major complications shes had was with 2 policemen from the UK who had had theier last shot the day before coming out and not owned up until after the op when both of them wouldnt stop nternal bleeding.

For the sake of missing a few weeks training and taking anything IMO its more than worth it to have a safe op that may change your life if you were anything like me mate.

1st day post op didnt do much, other days was walking, cinema (english films), eating, shopping. The missus was with me so it werent too bad. Not an exciting place though by any means. Your ok to PM me if you go down that route il be glad to help mate.


----------



## shaneo

Hi I'm 25 and since the age of about 20 I've had man boobs. I went to see my gp and he confirmed it was gynecomastia and prescribed me some tamoxifem to get rid of it. I didn't think tamoxifem actually 'got rid' of breast tissue but anyway I did what my gp told me and I've been taking 20mg a day for the past 3 months and suprise suprise my Gyno hasn't shrunk whatsoever, and my gp told me that I can't have surgery on the nhs, I would have to pay about £4000! I'm not even fat and never used steroids and have been training for about 4 years. I eventually want to have surgery to remove the Gyno and As I still have some tamoxifem left (also have some milk thistle) do you think should I do a cycle of mdrol/hdrol to try and bulk up? Would it make my Gyno look smaller if my shoulders/upper chest get bigger? Surely it can't make my condition any worse than it already is can it?


----------



## BigBarnBoy

It may change the appearance for the time your on your cycle as does cold/heat/clothing etc etc. But at the end of the day mate its still there and if its bad enough to bother you then youl want rid of it. If it is a solid lump that has formed then the only way to remove that is surgery as it is solid tissue.

Im suprised your GP has fobbed you off as it is obviously pubetal gyno. Mine was steroid induced and i was honest from the start with them and i still got it for free on the NHS. Took around a year and a half though start to finish and loads of trips to specialists etc. Have to really hammer it to them how its ruining your life metally not just physically. End result was terrible though and i went private abroad and wished i had done straight away the 1st time. however it depends on your finances of course mate.

If it does go to the point you have to go private though then its either here in the Uk and like you say up to the 4k mark..or abroad where its around 2k all in.


----------



## BigBarnBoy

Also dont forget if you start with steroids now when you already have it then depending what drugs you use it may very well worsen your gyno situation. If you go down that route be prepared with Nolva etc


----------



## hackskii

Id suggest that if you are prone to gyno from a younger age, this probably will manafest even more during a cycle, or be more prone.

I would suggest that an AI would be my first choice over nolva to reverse gyno.


----------



## shaneo

Thanks everyone for your advice, really appreciate it. The steroid route sounds like a bad idea for me and I don't have a source for letro so I think I'm just going to keep pestering my gp and tell him that having tits as a man is rather depressing which it is! I've already told him that it effects my lifestyle and stops me doing things that I want to like lads holidays, swimming, wearing normal fitting shirts etc but he just said the nhs don't fund the op so ill try the depressed route. Just wish I had the money for an op but its hard when I've got a mortgage and bills to pay! I'm sure if a woman walked into the doctors with a freshly grown cock they wouldn't hesitate to cut it off so why is a man with tits any different?!

Anyway sorry to rant on, thanks all for your help


----------



## jim2509

I've had pubetal gyno since age of around 18, am 36 now, have done cycle's of M1-t, Dbol and Epi, didn't effect my chest in anyway, as took ancilliaries before during and after, however i've finally taken the decision to have surgery, am thinking of Dr Karadis form that Nip Tuck in London..does anyone know if the hype around this guy is true or shall i just go to the private clinic down the road (literally)from my house...ANY advice will be greatly appreciated cheers.


----------



## jayrs2k

i currently have a problem with gyno and i am taking nolva at the min. the lumps i have aint directly behind my nipple. the lump on the right is above my nipple and it not round it feel like a sausage shape its the same shape on the left but the lump is to the left of the nipple. is this defo gyno?


----------



## hackskii

Nipples are not supposed to have lumps in them.

Its probably gyno.


----------



## jayrs2k

hackskii the lumps i have are not in my nipple they are in my pec above or to the side of my nipple


----------



## hackskii

It generally wont be directly under the nipple, I have a small lump above the nipple, it is a bit of a disk shaped feeling thing.

Like a smashed pea kindof.


----------



## jayrs2k

ok since it started i have bein using nolva at 40mg a day is this ok? im due to start my pct friday which is:

clomid 100/50/50/50

nolva 40/20/20/20

hcg 1500iu's e3d for 12days

is it ok to start this friday and will it sort the gyno out? i understand that its always goin to be a problem when i cycle now and i will always run a AI in the future


----------



## tyz123

ive got gyno from hcg and not using a AI only nolva but didnt work been using ugl letro didnt work made lump smaller and sex drive is 0 joints did kill stopped now , ive got a lump under each nipple and one of the nipples goes really puffy when its warm can i still do another cycle of test with gyno present and does the lumps ever stop being sore ?


----------



## hackskii

I have a lump in my nipple that is probably two years old, and it still is sore.

Some days less, some days more.

I was taking proviron and felt it was somewhat better actually with that, but once you come off, it returns.


----------



## tyz123

hackskii said:


> I have a lump in my nipple that is probably two years old, and it still is sore.
> 
> Some days less, some days more.
> 
> I was taking proviron and felt it was somewhat better actually with that, but once you come off, it returns.


ok bud can you still cycle with this and i think i got it from using hcg off cyle because i crashed didnt use a AI just nolva didnt work though


----------



## hackskii

Nolva should have worked fine.

Yes, but running an aromtizable cycle you will need an AI.


----------



## tyz123

hackskii said:


> Nolva should have worked fine.
> 
> Yes, but running an aromtizable cycle you will need an AI.


was thinking of doing tri-test 600mg PW with arimidex .5 mg ED seeing as i arleady have gyno and dont want it to become any worse ?


----------



## hackskii

tyz123 said:


> was thinking of doing tri-test 600mg PW with arimidex .5 mg ED seeing as i arleady have gyno and dont want it to become any worse ?


Sure, start out with that, if it flairs up, up the dose (AI).


----------



## tyz123

hackskii said:


> Sure, start out with that, if it flairs up, up the dose (AI).


should i start off with .5 mg eod of armidex or .5 ed ?


----------



## hackskii

EOD would probably work, just keep an eye on it, any sides up the dose.


----------



## MrWibble

my nipples seem to droop and have like fat behind them that makes them petrude... But I'm not sure it's gyno as there's no itchiness, soreness, pain or big lumps. When I feel around the area that is affected there is a small disc behind the nipple but I think that's the gland as I've always had that, but then there's lumpy tissue below and around the area I'm guessing that's fat as it feels like fat looks like.. So is this just fat or gyno


----------



## ba baracuss

DWalkington said:


> my nipples seem to droop and have like fat behind them that makes them petrude... But I'm not sure it's gyno as there's no itchiness, soreness, pain or big lumps. When I feel around the area that is affected there is a small disc behind the nipple but I think that's the gland as I've always had that, but then there's lumpy tissue below and around the area I'm guessing that's fat as it feels like fat looks like.. So is this just fat or gyno


Fat shouldn't be lumpy, it should be smooth.

The disc is a gland, but enlarged glands are gyno. Really, if you can feel the gland, you have a bit of gyno IMO.


----------



## MrWibble

ba baracuss said:


> Fat shouldn't be lumpy, it should be smooth.
> 
> The disc is a gland, but enlarged glands are gyno. Really, if you can feel the gland, you have a bit of gyno IMO.


The area around the nipple when I pinch to feel the skin there's lumpy uneven fat or whatever 

'Adipose or fat tissue is soft and lumpy. Muscle is generally much firmer'

I hope it's fat, although I don't want fatty tits either


----------



## ba baracuss

I've never known fat to be lumpy. Not sure where that's come from.

Rather than pinching, press down with your forefinger and index finger and 'walk' them around the nipple while flexing your pec. You should be able to feel what is not muscle then and differentiate between fat and glands.

Most likely, what you can see as droopiness is probably fat - I have a small gland in the right hand side and nothing I can feel in the left, yet the left looks puffier, i.e. it's not the gland I can see at all. Ideally you shouldn't be able to feel any gland at all though.


----------



## MrWibble

this is a good photo that sort of explains what i feel the grey bit where the nipple is feels like the gland i was talking about disc shaped behind nipple, and the yellow fat i think is what i feel which is lumpy etc



i think it's fat there isnt any itchyness, sensitivity or pain only plain is when i pinch everywhere so hopefully lose some body fat and see how that goes


----------



## hackskii

Disk shape is the gland, and that is how mine feels and yes there is pain.


----------



## Turkey

Never run gear but Iv always had puffy cone shaped nipples, its more obvious at higher body fat levels as it grows but theres no lump under the nipples or anything, and there is fatty tissue at the side of the breasts under the arms

Is this gyno or not??

Is there anything I can do about it? Its been there a long tome but has gotten worse recently, no lumps or sensitive/painful nipples though, Im guessing theres no point in trying Letro or any other meds, so only option is surgery?

cheers


----------



## hackskii

Many guys have puffy nipples, it is more common than you think.

Beings as you are hypersensitive then you notice it more than anyone else, most people will never even notice this.


----------



## Turkey

No, I mean they look like actuall man-boobs at the moment, they are pretty obvious at the moment, I'm not fat by any means but they are disproportionatly fatty compared to the rest of my body, can't work out if its gyno though, as there has never been a lump there.

sorry I wasnt very clear

Normally they are quite obvious

I did a keto diet and they got much smaller, hardly noticable

Came off keto, lost all discipline, put on weight, now they look rediculous to be honest worse than ever, Im dieting down again, but I don't feel it is normal to be holding so much fat there,

Is it possible to have gyno with no lump or anything there? bearing in mind I don't use steroids

Thanks


----------



## hackskii

Its just the way your body stores fat.


----------



## Turkey

ok cheers


----------



## ba baracuss

Turkey you could try lazer liposcution. Basically they place pads on the area which metabolises the fat stored there. You then do some cardio to burn it off. If you register on somewhere like groupon, deals come up from time to time. Sounds like you have pseudogyno which is just fat.


----------



## Growing Lad

Turkey said:


> No, I mean they look like actuall man-boobs at the moment, they are pretty obvious at the moment, I'm not fat by any means but they are disproportionatly fatty compared to the rest of my body, can't work out if its gyno though, as there has never been a lump there.
> 
> sorry I wasnt very clear
> 
> Normally they are quite obvious
> 
> I did a keto diet and they got much smaller, hardly noticable
> 
> Came off keto, lost all discipline, put on weight, now they look rediculous to be honest worse than ever, Im dieting down again, but I don't feel it is normal to be holding so much fat there,
> 
> Is it possible to have gyno with no lump or anything there? bearing in mind I don't use steroids
> 
> Thanks


hey turkey, i am like you mate, i store most my fat in my chest and it sucks! at the mo, i have veiny limbs, visible abs and flabby chest! literally have to go down to 7% bodyfat n under for my chest to look good. i also have gyno tho that im gna have done in couple months.

your problem is purely down to losing bodyfat mate, some women store all their fat in their hips, some on their legs, same kinda thing.


----------



## deemann

Hi all ,got a few questions for use

its been nearly 2 year since i did a cycle of aas and want to do another1 soon .i was checking around my nipples and think that iv got gyno .there are a few little small lumps around the size of a match head just above the top of my left nipple there fairly small .so was wondering would it be safe to do another course of juice, i use to use sust and deca ,the big question is what can i do about these small lumps ?


----------



## hackskii

deemann said:


> Hi all ,got a few questions for use
> 
> its been nearly 2 year since i did a cycle of aas and want to do another1 soon .i was checking around my nipples and think that iv got gyno .there are a few little small lumps around the size of a match head just above the top of my left nipple there fairly small .so was wondering would it be safe to do another course of juice, i use to use sust and deca ,the big question is what can i do about these small lumps ?


Well, three choices, leave them alone, or try an AI and see if it will make them go down, or go under the knife.

Get an AI if you want to do any more gear.


----------



## deemann

dont wanna go under the knife anyway u cant even see the lumps ,i know i want to do another cycle so how much AI do i use ed while on a cycle.should i stay away from sustanon and deca ? thanks for taking the time for answering my questions


----------



## hackskii

It depends on the AI, and what gear you use, and the amount of gear.


----------



## deemann

well i got omnadren and deca here iv been buying bit by bit over last couple of months prob take 750mg omnadrene and 500mg deca each week for 8 weeks also got clomid and couple of boxes of tomaxifan...to be honest i never used an AI before so dont no the names but can get my hands on anything...


----------



## tko

8 weeks seams very short , 12 weeks may ebe better?

there was a few bad omnads out there , search the batch number to see if theres any feedback imo


----------



## deemann

To make a long story short, do not buy Omnadren batch number: 910071.

There are sources around they still sell fake Omnadren

few mine are good


----------



## hackskii

deemann said:


> well i got omnadren and deca here iv been buying bit by bit over last couple of months prob take 750mg omnadrene and 500mg deca each week for 8 weeks also got clomid and couple of boxes of tomaxifan...to be honest i never used an AI before so dont no the names but can get my hands on anything...


get some arimidex and take that .5mg EOD, that should be about right.

If the sides manafest, up the dose some.


----------



## deemann

Thanks hackskii ur a legend


----------



## Uncivilization

Letro deal with puffy nipples?


----------



## hackskii

Uncivilization said:


> Letro deal with puffy nipples?


Not if they are just fatty, many guys have this.


----------



## Twisted

I have been off AAS for well over six months recently I have developed a Marble sized lump just below right centre of my nipple. Could this be some delayed form of Gyno or do I need to go running to the doctor?

I want to get it sorted as I am planning on starting again in the new year in a big controlled way

Forgot to add its quite painful


----------



## tom42021

I too have a puffy coned left nipple but my right one is normal which looks stupid! I've had it about 4 years

Would letro work or will I need surgery its from steroids


----------



## hackskii

If it is a lump then perhaps, I doubt for the puffy nips tho.

Diet would help.


----------



## danny bitz

i have a lump behind the nipple which is sensitive and was prescribed tamoxifens, jst dont seem to work.


----------



## hackskii

I would use letro myself for gyno removal/reversal.


----------



## bassmonster

I've tried nolva and letro protocol for gyno but hasn't helped.

going under the knife on the 15th of March..........wish me luck :-(


----------



## j.k22

hello hackskii.

This is a great post/thread.

I am currently on 5th week of an Epi cycle, Started getting gyno symptoms 5/6 days in (really sore nipps (at night), sensitive, ect.) {Definitely not in my head!}

Took some nolva for a few days and symptoms subsided. (I put this down to DrD's [anabolic minds "guru"] theory on death of old gyno tissue causing pain ??)

Anyway, end of week 3, Symptoms return, not as severe, but still annoying (left nipp was very puffy, rubbing clothes ect.). Back onto Nolva.

Week 5 has been fine, and i dropped the nolva 5/6 days ago, so far gyno lumps are smaller than before.

I looked frantically for some Stanodrol (1-Androsterone/Epiandrosterone/1-DHEA) of any description to raise DHT levels on account of this article. (and Hours of reading up after !!)

http://www .primordialperformance.com/blog/articles/endocrinology-articles-steroids-gyno/16-ways-to-fight-gynecomastia .html {Remove spaces, I dont have the post count}

I know he is selling a product, but it provokes a thought.

Found some Stano-drol last week, but it hasnt arrived. Im now not going use it if it arrives now I don't think. I would need to extend my cycle by quite a margin (to 7 weeks) now. and Ive bumped up my Epi dose as the gains were not as anticipated. (gyno sides either for that matter!!)

Anyway, I have nolva for PCT. will extent to 5 weeks I think, depending on how I feel. (20/20/10/10/10)


----------



## j.k22

hello hackskii.

This is a great post/thread.

I am currently on 5th week of an Epi cycle, Started getting gyno symptoms 5/6 days in (really sore nipps (at night), sensetive, ect.) {Definately not in my head!}

Took some nolva for a few days and symptoms subsided. (I put this down to DrD's [anabolic minds "guru"] theory on death of old gyno tissue causing pain ??)

Anyway, end of week 3, Symptoms return, not as severe, but still annoying (left nipp was very puffy, rubbing clothes ect.). Back onto Nolva.

Week 5 has been fine, and i dropped the nolva 5/6 days ago, so far gyno lumps are smaller than before.

I looked frantically for some Stanodrol (1-Androsterone/Epiandrosterone/1-DHEA) of any description to raise DHT levels on account of this article.

(and Hours of reading up after !!)

{ I dont have the post count to post links :cursing: }

But it was a primordial performance article, "16 ways to fight gyno". Its been posted on lots of boards. But also on their site too.

I know he is selling a product (androhard), but it provokes a thought.

Found some Stano-drol last week, but it hasnt arrived. Im now not going use it if it arrives now I don't think. I would need to extend my cycle by quite a margin (to 7 weeks) now. and Ive bumped up my Epi dose as the gains were not as anticipated. (gyno sides either for that matter!!)

Anyway, I have nolva for PCT. will extent to 5 weeks I think, depending on how I feel. (20/20/10/10/10)


----------



## hackskii

Biggest problem I have with primordial performance is that they pimp their products big time in their informational articles, state obvious BS, and call their products by similar names of drugs like HCGenerate.

What horse crap is that?

Any time you read stuff like that run, don't walk, it is to fleece the flock of their money.

I know very little about pro-hormones, pro-steroids, designer steroids actually.

Some of the sides from them many people do not know how to treat.

I would stick with the basics myself.

Forget the over the counter stuff that have proprietary blends/compounds, who knows what is in them and how the perform.

Get the legit stuff and be done with all the guesswork.


----------



## j.k22

Yeah, I read pretty much everything like that with a sceptical eye.

I am also not a fan of their products, or misleading sales tactics.

I also wish my first cycle was just a test cycle, but I wanted to dip my toe in the anabolic water to gauge how I may react to sides. (I know Epi isn't same as Test!)

However, there are studies on PubMed that would suggest DHT has some kind of action in Gyno regression

Search; "Studies on the treatment of idiopathic gynaecomastia with percutaneous dihydrotestosterone."

- this study covers a direct injection of DHT, but would suggest some effect.

It was just to provoke thought, But I understand that the Letro/Nolva protocol often works for many users.

Reason I went into this was panic of getting gyno. Still a possibility however.

I hope PCT goes well.


----------



## hackskii

j.k22 said:


> Yeah, I read pretty much everything like that with a sceptical eye.
> 
> I am also not a fan of their products, or misleading sales tactics.
> 
> I also wish my first cycle was just a test cycle, but I wanted to dip my toe in the anabolic water to gauge how I may react to sides. (I know Epi isn't same as Test!)
> 
> However, there are studies on PubMed that would suggest DHT has some kind of action in Gyno regression
> 
> Search; "Studies on the treatment of idiopathic gynaecomastia with percutaneous dihydrotestosterone."
> 
> - this study covers a direct injection of DHT, but would suggest some effect.
> 
> It was just to provoke thought, But I understand that the Letro/Nolva protocol often works for many users.
> 
> Reason I went into this was panic of getting gyno. Still a possibility however.
> 
> I hope PCT goes well.


Yes, I am aware of the DHT gyno thing.

In a nutshell DHT and progesterone can occupy the same receptor sites.

If the balance is that of more progesterone than DHT you can have issues.

DHT opposes estrogen to some extent, is t2 to 3 times more androgenic than testosterone.

You guys actually have DHT cream over there from what I have heard.

Or, lets go the other way, DHT inhibiting drugs can cause hypogonadism which they do not know how to fix, also can cause Erectile Dysfunction while on too.

Kindof a catch 22 really.

DHT can cause MPB, but if you inhibit it, you can get gyno and ED.

Test is the daddy of all hormones, if you cant get big on that, something is wrong.

The sides are well tolerated, and well known.

I have reversed gyno myself with the use of letro.


----------



## hackskii

Was the HCG in one shot?

If so, that alone can cause it.

Up the adex to .5 EOD


----------



## hackskii

How long for the EOD?

It takes a couple of weeks for blood plasma levels to come up to speed.

That and the half life is like 3 days so the overlap over time should catch up.


----------



## hackskii

Up the dose


----------



## hackskii

Higher throughout.

I always nowdays tend to get gyno after being on for like 5 weeks or so, I never used to have this problem, but not, always.

I have a lump too, I was messing around with a dude yesterday and he punched me in the chest and I swear the gyno hurt for a few minutes.

I don't take anything now, but sometimes it does hurt some.

Sucks


----------



## fairz

I have been reading quite abit into gyno recently and i think i have got progesterone gyno, as i don't have any hard lumps just like a sticky out puffy nipple area that you can see through t shirts (white ones).

It goes flat as soon as im cold lol..

I have never took synthetics! I sometimes think that maybe if i lose more bodyfat then it will go? I am around about 16% bf.

I may even give letro a blast next month. I also hear its good after tapering down the letro to take a SERM for a week or 2 after as well, to stop a rebound.

Any help would be AMAAAAZING!  1st post


----------



## robbo9

I have had the little lumps since puberty and never went, but used some HCG and it has flared up even worse.

Seen the breast surgeon as i was forwarded from my doctor as soon as i said ill just buy tamoxifen.

Has anyone had good results from the nhs for gyno? They said i have to persuade the panel for the op! Should i at least try? Thanks in advance


----------



## hackskii

I would consider using an AI over a SERM to reverse gyno.


----------



## newborn

I have had a small, pea sized lump under my left nipple from a cycle afew months ago, I missed a dosage and I guess the hormonal fluctuation caused it. Anyway last week I woke up, and, its nearly gone.

I am mind=blown, I havnt been taking anything apart from mucana at a fairly low dosage (just for well-being), so I am confused as how its gone from a pea size to the size of a breadcrumb, its somehow dropped 70% of its size almost overnight. Im hoping by next week it will be completly gone.

Has anyone else experienced a lump just vanishing over time?


----------



## robbo9

i wish


----------



## MisstheGym

I had gyno and from the first post in this thread i can now deduce that it was "natural" rather than from steroid use. At the time i didn't know this, I also didn't know how common it was. I went to the GP whom i told that I used steroids 5 years prior. He sent me to the breast clinic and they said i had gyno but that if the pain wasn't too bad i should try stick it out. Pain was bad. i chose to go private and had the op last year. All looked great after the surgery but about 3 months ago I noticed another lump under my right nipple. I went back to the surgeon who removed it in the first place and he said that it has not grown back and that if it did grow back it wouldn't be in such a short period after the surgery. He said it was scar tissue from training and that i should massage it and it will go away over a number of months?

Is this true? I can see the lump but it isn't sensitive like before? what can i do to get rid of it?

Any assistance please.

Thanks


----------



## Botta90

Hi Guys, 2 years ago i ran a deca test cycle for 12 weeks and me being young and dumb never took a pct and got mild gyno from my cycle

im now more educated and im eager to start a new cylce can some1 advise me ona cylce or pct to take that wont aggravate my gyno?

thanks for the help


----------



## apollo17

All is not lost bud, read my last post

http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/steroid-t...uccessful.html

Good Luck


----------



## Jaywin

Hey guys I could really use some help and insight on my situation , I´m a former user and with old gyno , always been prone to it , a few months ago I got prescribed with a sleep aid by my gp and not sure why it flared my gyno , ( it was list on the side effects ) anyway it got really unconfortable with the lump and disconfort and pain , so I got letro and started the gyno reversal , followed the protocol most people usually do. Was on it for three months and cleared my lump 100%. I tapered down for a week , and soon after stoping letro the typical gyno disconfort began coming back , and its been two days and its getting bad. Started taking nolva 20 mg ED but hasnt helped yet. I really want to get rid of this and move on.. maybe I tapered letro too fast and the estrogen reboun is hitting me hard? Since I´m pretty sure the lump is gone. Will staying on nolva will fix it? Should I get back on anti-E? Any advice is welcome .. thank you.


----------



## hackskii

The nolva should make the sides less, letro you probably didnt taper it enough.


----------



## Jaywin

Thanks for the reply , youre probably right , today the disconfort was less , so I´m hoping all be ok , should I continue with the nolva? Thats my plan at the moment.


----------



## synthasize

Jaywin said:


> Hey guys I could really use some help and insight on my situation , I´m a former user and with old gyno , always been prone to it , a few months ago I got prescribed with a sleep aid by my gp and not sure why it flared my gyno , ( it was list on the side effects ) anyway it got really unconfortable with the lump and disconfort and pain , so I got letro and started the gyno reversal , followed the protocol most people usually do. Was on it for three months and cleared my lump 100%. I tapered down for a week , and soon after stoping letro the typical gyno disconfort began coming back , and its been two days and its getting bad. Started taking nolva 20 mg ED but hasnt helped yet. I really want to get rid of this and move on.. maybe I tapered letro too fast and the estrogen reboun is hitting me hard? Since I´m pretty sure the lump is gone. Will staying on nolva will fix it? Should I get back on anti-E? Any advice is welcome .. thank you.


alright mate just out of curiosity, when did you notice the gyno starting to get better during the 3 months? and did it take the full 3 months to clear it?


----------



## Avi

Yes hard lumps often suggest you something really bad.But you need a doctor and more specifically diagnosis for this


----------



## Dzony93

how long does it take for gyno symptoms to start after starting cycle if you're prone to it ? ? just curious


----------



## Bensif

Dzony93 said:


> how long does it take for gyno symptoms to start after starting cycle if you're prone to it ? ? just curious


Varies massively depending on the individual.


----------



## hackskii

Dzony93 said:


> how long does it take for gyno symptoms to start after starting cycle if you're prone to it ? ? just curious


I notice it more towards the end of the cycle, but I recommend using an AI for any aromitizable steroid, including HCG.


----------



## Dzony93

Does it consider only place of nipples and little arround them or bit more space? im curious and i having blunt paint on chest but not constantly and not near nipples , i started yesterday with dbol 40 mg a day and i think its from todays workout


----------



## Dzony93

one more thing that i forgot when gyno starts does it hurt or scratch continuosly or no ? Caus i had few pulses of scratching on left nipple.. but for 2-3 sec..


----------



## Craigyboy

@Dzony93

Mate gyno for me was painfull and I mean painfull, just touching my nipple was sore, there was a lump directly behind my nipple

I had this when taking deca test and dbol as I neglected to keep up my intake of adex and a month on the dbol was just too much on top of the test with no AI

I used letro at 2.5mg ed for 21 days (came off the gear also) and this has completely removed the lump I started taking Nolva 6 days before the end of the letro so that it was up and running to avoid any rebound

You maybe just being paranoid about getting gyno as the pain or itch wasn't something that could be eased by a quick scratch

Hope this sheds some light on your questions buddy


----------



## Dzony93

thx, well maybe caus this is my first cycle ... Thx anyway


----------



## quackfly

I really need some advice from someone out there. Long story short, i was running a low dose of test with para, got gyno lump and swollen tit. got onto letro, 2.5 mg per day, reduced lump and tit after a couple of months to barely nothing. i was just about to start coming off it by tapering down, and here comes the wierd part, i got a tattoo on my pec and the whole thing, flared up, lump/pain returned and so did bitch tit. The letro appeared to have stopped working and i seemed to go into rebound.

Anyone who has or had gyno knows what a head mess it is, I spend all day looking at it in the mirror and either being gutted or pleased,thinking its better or worse but the bottom line is i have one pec bigger than the other by a mile. not the saggy puffy type that most pics seem to be but rather like its made my pec muscle grow. I try to tell myself the letro(fempro) worked once and it should again. My question is, does the body become used to letro and after how long? is this why it appears to have stopped working? and if so how can i "reset" my levels to maybe give the letro another chance to fight the gyno.

like i say its making me **** myself big time at the thought of surgery/disfigurment etc. I'm just so gutted that i'm in this awful mess.

please fellas, i'd really like to hear from those of you with past experience of a similar problem, i know surgery may be my only possible solution but i dont have the money and dread the thought of explaining surgery to my family etc so if thats all u have to say then please, dont, I know! im trying to stay positive so positive comments only pleeese. lol but if anyone knows if maybe letro maxed out or something and how get it working again please give me ur advice. cheers


----------



## hackskii

That is strange.

Could pop some nolva now and see what happens.

I never heard of the body getting used to the AI, it almost sounds like you got fake letro at the end.


----------



## rectus

My nips are tingly 3 weeks into a cycle, this is what I'm running:

Test E 250mg

Tren E 200mg

Mast E 200mg

Douglas Anastrozole (ADEX) 1mg ED (as of today, 0.5mg EOD previous to that)

HCG (when it gets delivered!) 1000iu

T3 25mcg

+ I already have a pair of titties from my teenage years so it's hard to see changes.

Thoughts?


----------



## hackskii

rectus said:


> My nips are tingly 3 weeks into a cycle, this is what I'm running:
> 
> Test E 250mg
> 
> Tren E 200mg
> 
> Mast E 200mg
> 
> Douglas Anastrozole (ADEX) 1mg ED (as of today, 0.5mg EOD previous to that)
> 
> HCG (when it gets delivered!) 1000iu
> 
> T3 25mcg
> 
> + I already have a pair of titties from my teenage years so it's hard to see changes.
> 
> Thoughts?


I seriously doubt it is estrogen related using only 250mg of test, with 1mg of adex, along with the mast in the mix.


----------



## rectus

hackskii said:


> I seriously doubt it is estrogen related using only 250mg of test, with 1mg of adex, along with the mast in the mix.


Well exactly! It just doesn't add up. I may buy some Med-Tech Adex and alternate between the two in case the Douglas Adex is fake or expired.

So day 1: douglas, day 2: Med-Tech, day 3: douglas and so on.

That way if the Douglas is fake then I'll be at least getting 0.5mg Adex EOD if the med-tech are under-dosed.


----------



## rectus

Oh and because of my high body fat there is going to be more aromatisation when compared to a leaner individual.


----------



## bulkan2k

**** this thread is long.

Ok so, I went to the doctor as I have gyno from puberty and I'm now 25. Get referred, at first it looked as if I was going to get the surgery on the NHS (woo). Meet with one more doctor and he tells me 'nope, we can't as it'll only happen in exceptional circumstances' ...he was a bit of a ****. Oh well. He did say 'oh, I can do this privately for £4,000'

Is this really how much it'll cost? ****. Can anyone recommend a place where I can get the surgery from?


----------



## Growing Lad

Yup, there's 2 best docs in uk ppl tend to use. Karidis and some other guy who are both around 4-5k.

Or u go medimel in Poland and pay about 2.2k with flights accommodation n everything included.


----------



## bulkan2k

lol, going to Poland....Not going to lie, I'm ethnic and going to Poland would not be my best option.


----------



## red9

Growing Lad said:


> Yup, there's 2 best docs in uk ppl tend to use. Karidis and some other guy who are both around 4-5k.
> 
> Or u go medimel in Poland and pay about 2.2k with flights accommodation n everything included.


I'm planning to go Poland this year..though I'm wondering how their results compare with Karidis


----------



## Heisenberg

AS of right now I'm natty (Hopefully not for long once I get a legit source), I'm sure sure if I have gyno or just puffy nips from a combination of losing a lot of weight and lack of chest development.

Right now I'm sitting about 10% bf but have puffy nips, they look normal when cold (hard) but really puffy when warm.

Only thing that puts me off gear is if it's gyno I guess it'll get worse.


----------



## boldster

Just to let you know I got gyno from taking massplex had to go for a biopsy just to make sure it was that and not cancer. I have a lump under just 1 nipple but that pec when I look down looks to me like a bit of boob there.


----------



## robbo9

keep trying with your doctor. i have my gyno op 8th may. he is a private surgeon but also has his own breast clinic with the nhs. he said they get all the steroid users in there.

i first went to my doctor nearly a year ago now for it then i got reffered to a breast specialist who put me on tamoxifen for 6 months. didnt work (thought it woulnt anyway) then doctor had to ask for approval for surgery from the panel. got accepted and now just waiting

ps i had some gyno from puberty and then when i took a bit of gear a few years ago it just made it that bit worse

its all about how you speak to your doctor/surgeon/specialist. (and letro didnt work for me as i guess it was too late for it)


----------



## bassmonster

red9 said:


> I'm planning to go Poland this year..though I'm wondering how their results compare with Karidis


Hi mate,

I had my surgery with Karidis last March. results very poor. i stated this after 2 weeks of my ops but i was told i need to give it more time but i just knew enough fat wasnt taken out. i'll be having revision this summer......very annoyed and frustrated. Levick does revision without any additional hospital charges unlike Karidis.


----------



## Harrison21

So I'm on 100mg of var and 750mg of Test-e per week and I'm taking 0.5 of adex every 2 or 3 days.... Noticed my nipples look puffy but there is nothing behind them? no itchyness or other symptons apart from visually... Could this be bodyfat?


----------



## waghorn

Morning, 1st post so be gentle with me...

finished a 5 week tbol course 2 weeks ago, was taking 50mg for 3 weeks then 80mg/day for last 2 weeks.

Halfway thru the course I noticed my nipples were quite puffy but since I finished the tbol they have got worse.There are no lumps behind the nipples and no pain, just puffy and they look crap when I'm warm!

I've been taking Nolva at 20mg a day for 9 days now but they are still puffy.

Will the puffyness go once my testosterone levels are back to normal our should I up the dose of nolva or maybe try some letro?

Thanks!


----------



## Kimball

waghorn said:


> Morning, 1st post so be gentle with me...
> 
> finished a 5 week tbol course 2 weeks ago, was taking 50mg for 3 weeks then 80mg/day for last 2 weeks.
> 
> Halfway thru the course I noticed my nipples were quite puffy but since I finished the tbol they have got worse.There are no lumps behind the nipples and no pain, just puffy and they look crap when I'm warm!
> 
> I've been taking Nolva at 20mg a day for 9 days now but they are still puffy.
> 
> Will the puffyness go once my testosterone levels are back to normal our should I up the dose of nolva or maybe try some letro?
> 
> Thanks!


You should repost this in your own thread. However Tbol is non aromatising so can't, in theory, cause this, unless it wasn't really Tbol but dbol instead.


----------



## waghorn

Cheers mate, I'll start a new thread


----------



## mrbig!

I'm new to this but need some advice!!

Hi people, basicaly I'm new to this forum and am looking for some help. I got gyno due to a silly course last year, came off and pain and sensitivity went away but lumps still lurked under my nip. Anyway I decided to go back on and start this week and I'm on my 3rd jab of test400 and eq with 1mg arimidex eod to prevent my gyno flareing up again. All was well untill today I woke and nipples r sensitive and is defo flareing back up again...anywone who knows what there talking about...do I up the arimidex dosage?? What's going on? Advice appreciated


----------



## latblaster

@mrbig!

You've posted this here & you want an answer to your question obv...don't you think the solution might just possibly be in this Sticky?


----------



## mrbig!

Tbh mate like I sed I'm new to this and I red loads on hereand I'm just confused to as wht is happening . Just wanted some help off sum people who hav been through similar.


----------



## latblaster

mrbig! said:


> Tbh mate like I sed I'm new to this and I red loads on hereand I'm just confused to as wht is happening . Just wanted some help off sum people who hav been through similar.


Ok mate.  Have a read of this, & if this doesn't answer your Q then just search for it. It'll get sorted out, I'm sure.

http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/steroid-testosterone-information/221630-gyno-advice-newbies.html


----------



## TrenMonster

I have slight gyno in right nipple, in this heat it looks bad as the tissue behind the nipple goes soft like dou, in cold its a hard lump, can I use letro do lower the lump atall?


----------



## hackskii

It may make the lump smaller.


----------



## TrenMonster

hackskii said:


> It may make the lump smaller.


thanks, will I need to worry about E being to low using letro?


----------



## hackskii

Yes.


----------



## TrenMonster

hackskii said:


> Yes.


care to expand? lol


----------



## hackskii

TrenMonster said:


> care to expand? lol


Estrogen is necessary for mood, libido, lipid profiles, bone mass, etc.

It may reduce the lump, but at a cost of low estrogen sides.


----------



## ba baracuss

mrbig! said:


> I'm new to this but need some advice!!
> 
> Hi people, basicaly I'm new to this forum and am looking for some help. I got gyno due to a silly course last year, came off and pain and sensitivity went away but lumps still lurked under my nip. Anyway I decided to go back on and start this week and I'm on my 3rd jab of test400 and eq with 1mg arimidex eod to prevent my gyno flareing up again. All was well untill today I woke and nipples r sensitive and is defo flareing back up again...anywone who knows what there talking about...do I up the arimidex dosage?? What's going on? Advice appreciated


Your post is a little old, so hopefully you have sorted it. But anyway, if you already have glandular tissue, then adding exogenous test will be stimulating those glands. Adex doesn't prevent aromatisation 100% especially with the amounts of exogenous test people use.

I would stop the cycle and smash the gyno with letro.


----------



## Mark.t

Just booked in at Medimel Poland to finally sort out my gyno issues that have been going on too long.

I did my one and only dianabol cycle over 10 years ago without any pct.

I developed a lump under my left nipple and paid private to sort out. All he did the first time was try liposuction which of course don't work .the second op he did free but left too much of the gland behind.

What I've been left with is the right side of my chest is bigger than left due to the lypo and I've got a tethering above the nipple on left side. When I went back to surgeon he wanted another 4 grand to sort it !

I've done loads of research and medimel ticks all the boxes as they specialise in gyno surgery and its over 2k less.


----------



## ashmo

Mark.t said:


> Just booked in at Medimel Poland to finally sort out my gyno issues that have been going on too long.
> 
> I did my one and only dianabol cycle over 10 years ago without any pct.
> 
> I developed a lump under my left nipple and paid private to sort out. All he did the first time was try liposuction which of course don't work .the second op he did free but left too much of the gland behind.
> 
> What I've been left with is the right side of my chest is bigger than left due to the lypo and I've got a tethering above the nipple on left side. When I went back to surgeon he wanted another 4 grand to sort it !
> 
> I've done loads of research and medimel ticks all the boxes as they specialise in gyno surgery and its over 2k less.


Did you not try Nolva and Letro mate?


----------



## Mark.t

ashmo said:


> Did you not try Nolva and Letro mate?


No mate I didn't , do you thnk it would of worked ?


----------



## ashmo

Mark.t said:


> No mate I didn't , do you thnk it would of worked ?


You should have mate you could have been surprised much better option before cutting your body up...


----------



## Mark.t

Hind sight is a great thing I cud of saved a small fortune as well.

From the research I've don tho it can only reduce a glandular lump by up to 80% .

If only we,d of known about pct back in the day !


----------



## Varnish86

I am pretty gyno prone and seem to always get painful lumps when cycling, the lumps always disappear so does that mean I caught it at the right time and will have no permanent gyno or as in the docs blog could I still have the "fatty" gyno without the permanent lump?


----------



## Mark.t

Varnish86 said:


> I am pretty gyno prone and seem to always get painful lumps when cycling, the lumps always disappear so does that mean I caught it at the right time and will have no permanent gyno or as in the docs blog could I still have the "fatty" gyno without the permanent lump?


Do use anything ie anti estogens while cycling ?


----------



## cockerpeter

I have the same issues! So now i dont cyvle without arimadex. Im actially cruising on 1 mil of test300 a week with adex every other day. Just to be sure' it works good!


----------



## Jas

cockerpeter said:


> I have the same issues! So now i dont cyvle without arimadex. Im actially cruising on 1 mil of test300 a week with adex every other day. Just to be sure' it works good!


I also find arimedex does the job, wish though the tablets came in 0.5mg instead of 1mg. Trying to break them in half ruins it leaving some broken bits and powder.


----------



## latblaster

Jas said:


> I also find arimedex does the job, wish though the tablets came in 0.5mg instead of 1mg. Trying to break them in half ruins it leaving some broken bits and powder.


Get a Pill Cutter from the pharmacy, they're about £4.


----------



## Mogy

@hackskii

Have you gone mate? Would like to pick your brains..


----------



## dannyp90

I have abit of a weird case, I got two lumps under both nipples that are hard but I had no sensitivity or itching they just arrived, I was running 500mg of test with 1mg eod of adex, so I added 20mg nolva in the end and it didn't change much, need advice


----------



## ashmo

dannyp90 said:


> I have abit of a weird case, I got two lumps under both nipples that are hard but I had no sensitivity or itching they just arrived, I was running 500mg of test with 1mg eod of adex, so I added 20mg nolva in the end and it didn't change much, need advice


That's because you can't really get rid of gyno when on cycle. Try nolva 20mg for 8-12 weeks then if no luck Letro 2.5mg for 8-12 weeks followed by Nolva 20mg for 4 weeks if no luck surgery.


----------



## Chris_Mcfc

Alright guys,

I've had some bad gyno for a while now. Left side is getting bad, seems to be growing all the time, Right isn't as bad but still fair sized lumps. Left side really tender.

Always had itchy nipples and a small bit of fatty area around there since being a teenager... Anyway rather stupidly i did a couple of Pro Hormone cycles. Always did pct etc.

I think what caused mine to get bad was a Test E cycle kick started with Superdrol. Anyway to cut a long story short i tried Novladex for 6 months which didn't do much for me apart from take the pain away etc. I managed 2 months standalone on Letro and it did not reduce the lump what so ever. This unfortunately was about a year after trying the Nolvadex etc so maybe too late.

Bit the bullet last week and went to my local GP. She inspected it, back for bloods done the following day and a appointment to the Breast Clinic at my local hospital a few days later.

2 days ago i went there,massive wait i must add! I saw a consultant. Usual questions, any steroids. Supplements. My answer was no. Went for a ultra sound scan. Back to see him for results. Wasn't worth bothering with. He looked at me with a raised eyebrow and said you need to watch what supplements you are taking! He then did a biopsy on my left side. Local anesthetic and took 2 samples for a test. Still swollen and a little bit sore now. I asked him what i could do to stop the pain and itchiness and he suggested Voltarol gel! Also said it has to get worse to get better? Oh dear!! He did say one level in my blood was abnormal. That was high prolactin levels! I think i've had this problem since being a teenager. Would this cause me itchy nipples etc? I will read up on this further. Pretty sure this is half of my problem plus my mistakes with taking things.

Basically anyway it was a waste of time. Back for another blood test to asses blood for prolactin levels in another months time. I will try and persist with the NHS but i'm thinking it's going to be a trip to Poland and Medimel for me later next year!

Thought i would share my account with you guys anyway. Hope it wasn't too hard to read!


----------



## ashmo

Chris_Mcfc said:


> Alright guys,
> 
> I've had some bad gyno for a while now. Left side is getting bad, seems to be growing all the time, Right isn't as bad but still fair sized lumps. Left side really tender.
> 
> Always had itchy nipples and a small bit of fatty area around there since being a teenager... Anyway rather stupidly i did a couple of Pro Hormone cycles. Always did pct etc.
> 
> I think what caused mine to get bad was a Test E cycle kick started with Superdrol. Anyway to cut a long story short i tried Novladex for 6 months which didn't do much for me apart from take the pain away etc. I managed 2 months standalone on Letro and it did not reduce the lump what so ever. This unfortunately was about a year after trying the Nolvadex etc so maybe too late.
> 
> Bit the bullet last week and went to my local GP. She inspected it, back for bloods done the following day and a appointment to the Breast Clinic at my local hospital a few days later.
> 
> 2 days ago i went there,massive wait i must add! I saw a consultant. Usual questions, any steroids. Supplements. My answer was no. Went for a ultra sound scan. Back to see him for results. Wasn't worth bothering with. He looked at me with a raised eyebrow and said you need to watch what supplements you are taking! He then did a biopsy on my left side. Local anesthetic and took 2 samples for a test. Still swollen and a little bit sore now. I asked him what i could do to stop the pain and itchiness and he suggested Voltarol gel! Also said it has to get worse to get better? Oh dear!! He did say one level in my blood was abnormal. That was high prolactin levels! I think i've had this problem since being a teenager. Would this cause me itchy nipples etc? I will read up on this further. Pretty sure this is half of my problem plus my mistakes with taking things.
> 
> Basically anyway it was a waste of time. Back for another blood test to asses blood for prolactin levels in another months time. I will try and persist with the NHS but i'm thinking it's going to be a trip to Poland and Medimel for me later next year!
> 
> Thought i would share my account with you guys anyway. Hope it wasn't too hard to read!


Check this out mate  http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/personal-care-health/234402-poland-gyno-surgery-18-07-2013-a.html


----------



## Chris_Mcfc

Thanks for that i had a good read through the thread...

Sounds like they did a good job. Weird how Medimel want you to stop over for much longer than this place. Don't know if that's a good or bad thing!


----------



## Sharpz

just thought id share im currently on 600mg test e/500mg eq/400mg deca EW started 2.5mg letro ED to try to remove gyno from previous test cycle im 2weeks in to the letro and at first it seemed to be working but now progress has halted. joints are aching and sex driver isnt as high so no doubt letro is legit (pharma) ive ordered some prami from aurapharm an plan on adding it in at 0.5mg ED so long as it turns up soon.....dont think i can handle any longer than another 2 weeks on letro......any suggestions from anyone on how i may combat this gyno other than surgery?


----------



## Mogy

st8plz said:


> just thought id share im currently on 600mg test e/500mg eq/400mg deca EW started 2.5mg letro ED to try to remove gyno from previous test cycle im 2weeks in to the letro and at first it seemed to be working but now progress has halted. joints are aching and sex driver isnt as high so no doubt letro is legit (pharma) ive ordered some prami from aurapharm an plan on adding it in at 0.5mg ED so long as it turns up soon.....dont think i can handle any longer than another 2 weeks on letro......any suggestions from anyone on how i may combat this gyno other than surgery?


My suggestion would be to not try and reduce it on cycle. Focus instead on keeping your gyno from progression with anti E's then after pct run letro and see if that works.


----------



## Zmoney

st8plz said:


> just thought id share im currently on 600mg test e/500mg eq/400mg deca EW started 2.5mg letro ED to try to remove gyno from previous test cycle im 2weeks in to the letro and at first it seemed to be working but now progress has halted. joints are aching and sex driver isnt as high so no doubt letro is legit (pharma) ive ordered some prami from aurapharm an plan on adding it in at 0.5mg ED so long as it turns up soon.....dont think i can handle any longer than another 2 weeks on letro......any suggestions from anyone on how i may combat this gyno other than surgery?


Bear in mind that this is just conjecture - but could try raloxifene on cycle to prevent estrogen binding to breast tissue receptors (10x higher affinity than nolva) instead of tanking it with letro, and still get positive estro benefits on bones etc. I've seen comparison studies between nolva and ralox in treating gyno in a range of young and old men (18-84 iirc) where ralox 60mg/ED was used to positive effect, so may not hurt to have it during a cycle. Again, I'm just postulating here from what I've read about its mechanisms I haven't actually tried this or know about anyone else who has so take this with a large pinch of salt.

Though like you said, since you're using deca could have prolactin effects too if letro is not helping further.


----------



## Sharpz

Mogy said:


> My suggestion would be to not try and reduce it on cycle. Focus instead on keeping your gyno from progression with anti E's then after pct run letro and see if that works.


Cheers Mogy, think I may have to give that a shot if things don't begin to look up soon..... although on a more positive note I woke up this morning with the nipples of Justin Bieber! Looks like there's been some rather dramatic over-night shrinkage lets hope it continues before i end up with the nipples of Mrs Doubtfire.


----------



## Mogy

st8plz said:


> Cheers Mogy, think I may have to give that a shot if things don't begin to look up soon..... although on a more positive note I woke up this morning with the nipples of Justin Bieber! Looks like there's been some rather dramatic over-night shrinkage lets hope it continues before i end up with the nipples of Mrs Doubtfire.


I'd use nolvadex on cycle too bud, 20mg ed.


----------



## Sharpz

Zmoney said:


> Bear in mind that this is just conjecture - but could try raloxifene on cycle to prevent estrogen binding to breast tissue receptors (10x higher affinity than nolva) instead of tanking it with letro, and still get positive estro benefits on bones etc. I've seen comparison studies between nolva and ralox in treating gyno in a range of young and old men (18-84 iirc) where ralox 60mg/ED was used to positive effect, so may not hurt to have it during a cycle. Again, I'm just postulating here from what I've read about its mechanisms I haven't actually tried this or know about anyone else who has so take this with a large pinch of salt.
> 
> Though like you said, since you're using deca could have prolactin effects too if letro is not helping further.


I'd love to give either Raloxifene or Toremifene as I too have heard that both work wonders for gyno (especially pubertal) at 60mg ED. Trouble is finding a reputable and reasonably prices online pharmacy that carries either of them....


----------



## Sharpz

Mogy said:


> I'd use nolvadex on cycle too bud, 20mg ed.


Will do soon as I taper down the letro mateo, thanks


----------



## Mogy

st8plz said:


> Will do soon as I taper down the letro mateo, thanks


Remember letro has a 5 day half life so you'll have to taper down slowly to avoid oestrogen rebound.


----------



## Sharpz

Mogy said:


> Remember letro has a 5 day half life so you'll have to taper down slowly to avoid oestrogen rebound.


Have you had experience of tapering it before? If so what were your dosages and did you successfully prevent rebound?


----------



## Mogy

st8plz said:


> Have you had experience of tapering it before? If so what were your dosages and did you successfully prevent rebound?


I didn't run it for long so I just went cold turkey with Nolva. Got sore nips for a couple of days but I didn't have any actual gyno tissue so it didn't matter for me. Nolva stopped most of the rebound oestrogen binding.

I'd try this;

Day 1: 2.0mg

Day 2: 2.0mg

Day 3: 1.5mg

Day 4: 1.5mg

Day 5: 1.0mg

Day 6: 1.0mg

Day 7: 0.5mg

Day 8: 0.5mg

Day9: 0.25mg


----------



## Boro Boy

st8plz said:


> I'd love to give either Raloxifene or Toremifene as I too have heard that both work wonders for gyno (especially pubertal) at 60mg ED. Trouble is finding a reputable and reasonably prices online pharmacy that carries either of them....


Chemical research companies should carry them both. raloxifene at 60mg per day is correct but it can take a long time. If there is no improvement after 10 weeks or so it's unlikely that anything other than surgery will help.


----------



## Sharpz

Boro Boy said:


> Chemical research companies should carry them both. raloxifene at 60mg per day is correct but it can take a long time. If there is no improvement after 10 weeks or so it's unlikely that anything other than surgery will help.


I don't trust those research chems mate id only try pharma


----------



## Sharpz

Mogy said:


> I didn't run it for long so I just went cold turkey with Nolva. Got sore nips for a couple of days but I didn't have any actual gyno tissue so it didn't matter for me. Nolva stopped most of the rebound oestrogen binding.
> 
> I'd try this;
> 
> Day 1: 2.0mg
> 
> Day 2: 2.0mg
> 
> Day 3: 1.5mg
> 
> Day 4: 1.5mg
> 
> Day 5: 1.0mg
> 
> Day 6: 1.0mg
> 
> Day 7: 0.5mg
> 
> Day 8: 0.5mg
> 
> Day9: 0.25mg


I'm tapering down as of xmas eve. I can't handle this drug its just not worth it I'd rather have a little lump behind my nipple than cracking joints all over my body.....I'll give letro one last blast when my prami turns up but its nolva for me until then. Letro is horrific lol


----------



## Mogy

st8plz said:


> I'm tapering down as of xmas eve. I can't handle this drug its just not worth it I'd rather have a little lump behind my nipple than cracking joints all over my body.....I'll give letro one last blast when my prami turns up but its nolva for me until then. Letro is horrific lol


It won't clear your system completely for two weeks, it'll be tempting to taper off more swiftly, but if you taper off in a week you'll go from having about 10g in your system to 3 g in 5 days. Dropping your dose to less than a third..


----------



## Boro Boy

st8plz said:


> I don't trust those research chems mate id only try pharma


Fair enough. I have the same feeling about AAS.


----------



## gynolad

finally got enough for my surgery with medimel, think i should go after or before my cycle?


----------



## ashmo

gynolad said:


> finally got enough for my surgery with medimel, think i should go after or before my cycle?


Check out my surgery mate http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/personal-care-health/234402-poland-gyno-surgery-18-07-2013-a.html


----------



## gynolad

ashmo said:


> Check out my surgery mate http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/personal-care-health/234402-poland-gyno-surgery-18-07-2013-a.html


nice mate u got really good results there. any reason u chose it over medimel? it looks a bit shifty through the links as the youtube has barely any views, the facebook is down, the website hardly works! but you got good results mind


----------



## ashmo

gynolad said:


> nice mate u got really good results there. any reason u chose it over medimel? it looks a bit shifty through the links as the youtube has barely any views, the facebook is down, the website hardly works! but you got good results mind


Facebook works fine you need to send a friend request. Websites always work for me... If you go through the pages in my topic you should see some reason why I didn't pick medimel.


----------



## Lewy_h

I'm back to puffy nips ! Got rid of them last year somehow after pct now they've came back 

Considering letro now


----------



## Wlkir100

Lewy_h said:


> I'm back to puffy nips ! Got rid of them last year somehow after pct now they've came back
> 
> Considering letro now


You have to consider some other medical options.

Letro is fine - but heavy stuff.

Is there a hard lump under the nipple? Or are they just puffy? If you stimulate the nipple mechanicly , does it secrete some kind of fluid (even small volumes)?

The big anti-gyno - hardcore any case regime is quite as: letro + something dopaminerg (caber/bromo/pramipexole) + maybe tamoxifen - but this is just some dangerous cycle.

If you know for sure, your gyno is prolactin related (deca, tren, 19-nor, gh, high dose test (-> igf-1 response) ) , just go low dose with the letro and fixate on the anti-prolactin therapy.

If you know it's kind of an estrogen issue just go straight with letro mid-high dose + maybe tamox (to be sure).

Be aware of massive! side affects.

Speaking of myself, I know letro doesn't crash my sex drive - but my head. Don't know why but it's even more significant as clomiphene - I am feeling like a crying, depressed, emotional girl all the time.


----------



## Lewy_h

Wlkir100 said:


> You have to consider some other medical options.
> 
> Letro is fine - but heavy stuff.
> 
> Is there a hard lump under the nipple? Or are they just puffy? If you stimulate the nipple mechanicly , does it secrete some kind of fluid (even small volumes)?
> 
> The big anti-gyno - hardcore any case regime is quite as: letro + something dopaminerg (caber/bromo/pramipexole) + maybe tamoxifen - but this is just some dangerous cycle.
> 
> If you know for sure, your gyno is prolactin related (deca, tren, 19-nor, gh, high dose test (-> igf-1 response) ) , just go low dose with the letro and fixate on the anti-prolactin therapy.
> 
> If you know it's kind of an estrogen issue just go straight with letro mid-high dose + maybe tamox (to be sure).
> 
> Be aware of massive! side affects.
> 
> Speaking of myself, I know letro doesn't crash my sex drive - but my head. Don't know why but it's even more significant as clomiphene - I am feeling like a crying, depressed, emotional girl all the time.


I was on 800mg test a week and got massive painful lumps so I came off and done a pct, then they've remained puffy, One has a tiny lump still. Why would I do letro and tamox together ? Or did you mean tamox after I've tapered the letro off


----------



## Wlkir100

Lewy_h said:


> I was on 800mg test a week and got massive painful lumps so I came off and done a pct, then they've remained puffy, One has a tiny lump still. Why would I do letro and tamox together ? Or did you mean tamox after I've tapered the letro off


So Letro + Tamox is just an option. There is maybe no real need for the tamox, but since it's kinetics and mechanism of action, I would go straght in with tamox , and Letro ...

Taper down the tamox after 5 - 7 days ...

And please consider: Test your nipples for secretion: stimulate them. There are several medical cases of "prolactinish" gyno without 19-Nors, some kind of mixed gyno, induced due high IGF-1 levels (AAS -> IGF-1 response, not only GH by itself).

But please be aware that you're gonna **** up your well beeing, for a big part. And it's not a guarantee, maybe you'll need surgery - but i've seen some good response to several therapy cycles, including "r "real" natural gyno (not cycle induced)


----------



## Rickyc123

I took sustanon and dianabol stupidly when I was 18, I didn't technically take a full cycle though, I do have moobs but I was a bit overweight for a while, what are the chances I would be able to get rid?

Or the chances I actually have them due to steroids at all?


----------



## ashmo

Rickyc123 said:


> I took sustanon and dianabol stupidly when I was 18, I didn't technically take a full cycle though, I do have moobs but I was a bit overweight for a while, what are the chances I would be able to get rid?
> 
> Or the chances I actually have them due to steroids at all?


Cardio.


----------



## Lewy_h

Would aromasin, nolva and caber be a good protocol for puffy nips ?


----------



## robbo9

No need for nolva as you have aromasin and caber is if your lactating


----------



## Lewy_h

robbo9 said:


> No need for nolva as you have aromasin and caber is if your lactating


Read they go well together :/, I'm literally trying everything I can to be honest!

Got rid of them then done a cycle of just test using 1mg pharma Adex a day and they still came back


----------



## ashmo

Lewy_h said:


> Read they go well together :/, I'm literally trying everything I can to be honest!
> 
> Got rid of them then done a cycle of just test using 1mg pharma Adex a day and they still came back


Did you have puffy nipples before your cycle?


----------



## Lewy_h

ashmo said:


> Did you have puffy nipples before your cycle?


I had them then got rid of them just taking Adex for a while whilst not on anything. Done a cycle of just test over the winter and got massive lumps so came off done a pct and got rid of the lumps but now still puffy. I'm not on anything now


----------



## ashmo

Lewy_h said:


> I had them then got rid of them just taking Adex for a while whilst not on anything. Done a cycle of just test over the winter and got massive lumps so came off done a pct and got rid of the lumps but now still puffy. I'm not on anything now


You might still have some tissue under your nipple, try Letro mate 2.5mg for few weeks followed by Nolva 20mg for few weeks should help.


----------



## Lewy_h

ashmo said:


> You might still have some tissue under your nipple, try Letro mate 2.5mg for few weeks followed by Nolva 20mg for few weeks should help.


Okay cheers, I've got a box of letro there just really don't fancy the sides for a long time!


----------



## thinkinht

How I got rid of my gyno (after stupidly pinning test in my pecs which made puberty gyno much much worst) adex 0.5 eod + nolva 20mg for a week + mast prop 200mg pinned in each pec over 4 days.

All gone. Of course this is only temporary, once you have gyn you need surgery eventually but until then I'll continue using mast with every single cycle.


----------



## Lewy_h

Can I go straight from taking letro into a cycle ? If I overlap with aromasin once I've tapered the letro anyone?


----------



## ashmo

Lewy_h said:


> Can I go straight from taking letro into a cycle ? If I overlap with aromasin once I've tapered the letro anyone?


If your happy your gyno is gone, follow with Nolva mate.


----------



## Lewy_h

ashmo said:


> If your happy your gyno is gone, follow with Nolva mate.


Not yet just I'm planned to start a cycle in a few weeks, would aromasin not be better to avoid rebound? Then continue aromasin throughout my cycle


----------



## ashmo

Lewy_h said:


> Not yet just I'm planned to start a cycle in a few weeks, would aromasin not be better to avoid rebound? Then continue aromasin throughout my cycle


As an AI it will only lower your E level's and not as good as Letro, Nolva on the other hand will block any further build up tissue on the breast, best scenario would be once you've stopped the Letro move onto Nolva for 4 weeks, but if your set on running a cycle I would still use Nolva during and keep an AI like Adex or Aromasin on hand, saying all that your gyno may come back if its not totally gone and you'll be back at square one.


----------



## Lewy_h

ashmo said:


> As an AI it will only lower your E level's and not as good as Letro, Nolva on the other hand will block any further build up tissue on the breast, best scenario would be once you've stopped the Letro move onto Nolva for 4 weeks, but if your set on running a cycle I would still use Nolva during and keep an AI like Adex or Aromasin on hand, saying all that your gyno may come back if its not totally gone and you'll be back at square one.


I've still got 3-4 weeks left of taking letro anyway, it's only really puffiness I'm trying to get rid of and a tiny lump in one, then I can jump onto nolva at the start of my cycle then switch to aromasin


----------



## Lewy_h

Lewy_h said:


> I've still got 3-4 weeks left of taking letro anyway, it's only really puffiness I'm trying to get rid of and a tiny lump in one, then I can jump onto nolva at the start of my cycle then switch to aromasin


Nipples seem to be getting worse on letro :/ only day 8 but puffier


----------



## ashmo

Lewy_h said:


> Nipples seem to be getting worse on letro :/ only day 8 but puffier


Should start seeing something from day 10 you got any sides yet?


----------



## Lewy_h

ashmo said:


> Should start seeing something from day 10 you got any sides yet?


Fingers crossed! I felt weaker and sore elbows the first few days but I'm not feeling anything now, haven't had a sex drive in ages since I've been trying aromasin an everything else recently to try get rid of this


----------



## Lewy_h

Day 9

2.5mg letro

0.5mg caber

100mg p5p

Lump feels like it's gone, don't want to press about to much. Puffiness seems to have gone mostly.


----------



## ashmo

Lewy_h said:


> Day 9
> 
> 2.5mg letro
> 
> 0.5mg caber
> 
> 100mg p5p
> 
> Lump feels like it's gone, don't want to press about to much. Puffiness seems to have gone mostly.


No real need for the b6 if your on caber mate.


----------



## Lewy_h

ashmo said:


> No real need for the b6 if your on caber mate.


I'm probably over doing it but just hitting it with all I've got to be honest mate, gonna drop down the caber now


----------



## ashmo

Lewy_h said:


> I'm probably over doing it but just hitting it with all I've got to be honest mate, gonna drop down the caber now


Caber should be E3D.


----------



## Lewy_h

ashmo said:


> Caber should be E3D.


Will do that from now


----------



## Lewy_h

Day 13

2.5mg letro

0.5mg caber

100mg p5p

Still puffy


----------



## ashmo

Lewy_h said:


> Day 13
> 
> 2.5mg letro
> 
> 0.5mg caber
> 
> 100mg p5p
> 
> Still puffy


Keep at it mate it can take anything up to 3 months.


----------



## Lewy_h

Day 22

2.5mg letro

100mg p5p

0.5mg caber

Joints killing, still a bit puffy but maybe better. Still a lump in one


----------



## jacksong

Guys hopefully this is the correct place to ask this question. When I was younger I had a massive chemical imbalance while going through my teen years causing severe gyno. At 18 I have the operation to remove everything, which i will just say was more than puffy nipples. Now my question is can I get gyno again? I have googled this but it brings up as many people on each side saying yes and no. Hopefully someone on here may have some knowledge that can help.


----------



## ashmo

jacksong said:


> Guys hopefully this is the correct place to ask this question. When I was younger I had a massive chemical imbalance while going through my teen years causing severe gyno. At 18 I have the operation to remove everything, which i will just say was more than puffy nipples. Now my question is can I get gyno again? I have googled this but it brings up as many people on each side saying yes and no. Hopefully someone on here may have some knowledge that can help.


Yes if there is still some gland left behind there is always a chance it can grow.


----------



## Lewy_h

Day 24 of full dose letro, still puffy! Any other options..


----------



## ashmo

Lewy_h said:


> Day 24 of full dose letro, still puffy! Any other options..


You still on the caber?


----------



## EarthwormJim

On 7th day of 30mg ED of Dianabol. I have noticed slight itchy nipple and also slightly sore. I want to take some nolva to be safe, but need some advice. Do I stop my Dianabol whilst i run this Nolva or just continue to run it? My symptoms aren't bad but I want to be safe, how much mg a day should I take? And until when? Any advice on this would be great. Thanks.


----------



## Dazza95

> On 7th day of 30mg ED of Dianabol. I have noticed slight itchy nipple and also slightly sore. I want to take some nolva to be safe, but need some advice. Do I stop my Dianabol whilst i run this Nolva or just continue to run it? My symptoms aren't bad but I want to be safe, how much mg a day should I take? And until when? Any advice on this would be great. Thanks.


No need to double post mate, check your thread.


----------



## EarthwormJim

Dazza95 said:


> No need to double post mate, check your thread.


I appreciate the reply but I've not really had a detailed answer. Some people are saying take 20mg everyday until it goes away, you're saying take 20mg every day for the rest of the cycle then PCT. SO I don't know what to do.


----------



## Goose

I've had puffy nips for as long as I remember.. probably 10 years + ... all before any AAS use. AFAIK its pseudo gyno.

Never got lumps just the puff (cone like) never got rid, dont really know what else to try. 20mg nolvadex perhaps? Letro perhaps? Ive tried all sorts. Kind give up and prey for a cold day


----------



## Jas

Goose said:


> I've had puffy nips for as long as I remember.. probably 10 years + ... all before any AAS use. AFAIK its pseudo gyno.
> 
> Never got lumps just the puff (cone like) never got rid, dont really know what else to try. 20mg nolvadex perhaps? Letro perhaps? Ive tried all sorts. Kind give up and prey for a cold day


Is it from puberty, did you have it there as a young teenager?

If yes then you have then the only solution is surgery to remove any gland and lipo-suction


----------



## Goose

Jas said:


> Is it from puberty, did you have it there as a young teenager?
> 
> If yes then you have then the only solution is surgery to remove any gland and lipo-suction


Agreed - Ive had it since puberty, although I would never go down the surgery route.. Only ever time I have noticed it almost "gone" was when I ran hgh years back and drop fair whack of bodyfat (in my avatar) didnt have any signs of it then.

That picture is now 5 years old, I am a lot bigger now but also fatter so perhaps I need to jump back on the fat burning process 

This link is good for people who dont understand the differences between gynecomastia and pseudogynecomastia

http://www.gynecoma.com/pseudogynecomastia-symptoms-diagnosis-treatment/


----------



## Dan94

Goose said:


> Agreed - Ive had it since puberty, although I would never go down the surgery route.. Only ever time I have noticed it almost "gone" was when I ran hgh years back and drop fair whack of bodyfat (in my avatar) didnt have any signs of it then.
> 
> That picture is now 5 years old, I am a lot bigger now but also fatter so perhaps I need to jump back on the fat burning process
> 
> This link is good for people who dont understand the differences between gynecomastia and pseudogynecomastia
> 
> http://www.gynecoma.com/pseudogynecomastia-symptoms-diagnosis-treatment/


Good link that.

Did you see one of the websites when clicking on pills? Could be worth a look to some

http://www.gynecomastiatreatment.com/gynecomastia-treatment-how-it-works.php


----------



## Goose

Dan94 said:


> Good link that.
> 
> Did you see one of the websites when clicking on pills? Could be worth a look to some
> 
> http://www.gynecomastiatreatment.com/gynecomastia-treatment-how-it-works.php


I honestly wouldnt purchase those pills. More of a marketing scheme Id say.


----------



## GodForbid

Hi all, looking for some advise if possible please.

Did a Dbol cycle last summer 20mg a day for 6 weeks, ran a PCT of Nolva 20/20/10/10. A few weeks after finishing the nolva I found a lump under the nipple. It's progressively got slightly worse over the months. It's now a hard lump the size of a large pea, and at some points in the day it's very visible (nipple poking out) others you can hardly see it.

I am wondering if using Letrozole now would be pointless due to the lump being with me for 6 months or so, it seems to be getting very slowly worse (I've not been taking anything).

If anyone could help me with their experiences I would greatly appreciate it. I did try to read through as much of this thread as possible but I have ran out of time it being 40 odd pages!

Thanks in advance!


----------



## ashmo

Dan94 said:


> Good link that.
> 
> Did you see one of the websites when clicking on pills? Could be worth a look to some
> 
> http://www.gynecomastiatreatment.com/gynecomastia-treatment-how-it-works.php


Don't even think about wasting money on these pills.

The only medication that can help with gyno are AI's and Serms.

1st option Nolva 20mg 6-12 weeks.

2nd option Letro 2.5mg 6-12 weeks Followed by Nolva 20mg 4 weeks. (You may need caber or dox if its prolactin induced)

3rd option Surgery - If you want info send me a PM


----------



## ripped01

hi people i have got start of bitch tits  lol not really funny but i have been running nolva for 20mg ed for 4 weeks if i come off this will it get worse or stay at the place its at please let me know asap as might have to get more nolva thanks


----------



## Dan94

Something I've always wondered... if Oestrogen levels are high and someone uses an AI or SERM to lower Oest, what happens when they come off the AI/SERM? Surely the levels will just go back to normal again?


----------



## FoxyQuik

In my second week of 500mg pw of test e, I've been running 0.5mg of Arimidex eod since the start of the cycle. ....nips have started tingling today, My plan is to up the dosage to 1mg ed, should I take some nolva too? Have heard stories about nolva and adex countering each other, but my understanding is that nolva blocks the estrogen receptors whilst adex lowers estrogen, so surely both would be a double edged sword against gyno?


----------



## Turtle4321

FoxyQuik said:


> In my second week of 500mg pw of test e, I've been running 0.5mg of Arimidex eod since the start of the cycle. ....nips have started tingling today, My plan is to up the dosage to 1mg ed, should I take some nolva too? Have heard stories about nolva and adex countering each other, but my understanding is that nolva blocks the estrogen receptors whilst adex lowers estrogen, so surely both would be a double edged sword against gyno?


I'm extremely gyno prone, 30mg tamoxifen and .5 adex/day seems to do the job for me. i can't go over 450mg test/wk though


----------



## Dan94

Dan94 said:


> Something I've always wondered... if Oestrogen levels are high and someone uses an AI or SERM to lower Oest, what happens when they come off the AI/SERM? Surely the levels will just go back to normal again?


 @hackskii


----------



## raj-m

Just started letro at

day 1 0.25

2 0.5

3 1.0

4 1.5

5 2.0

6 2.5

will carry on 2.5 until goes, if it goes....

was on adex 1mg eod and nolva 20mg ed, did nothing


----------



## gi55

GodForbid said:


> Hi all, looking for some advise if possible please.
> 
> Did a Dbol cycle last summer 20mg a day for 6 weeks, ran a PCT of Nolva 20/20/10/10. A few weeks after finishing the nolva I found a lump under the nipple. It's progressively got slightly worse over the months. It's now a hard lump the size of a large pea, and at some points in the day it's very visible (nipple poking out) others you can hardly see it.
> 
> I am wondering if using Letrozole now would be pointless due to the lump being with me for 6 months or so, it seems to be getting very slowly worse (I've not been taking anything).
> 
> If anyone could help me with their experiences I would greatly appreciate it. I did try to read through as much of this thread as possible but I have ran out of time it being 40 odd pages!
> 
> Thanks in advance!


hey man my situation is very similar to yours have you found any info on how to maybe reverse or shrink the lump. i am curious on trying ralox and or letro. thanks..


----------



## Guest

Is this gyno? Or just fat ?
View attachment 162359


----------



## raj-m

Mikejfend said:


> Is this gyno? Or just fat ?
> View attachment 162359


I personally think that is gyno. But losing fat will help. Dont mean to sound harsh.


----------



## Guest

raj-m said:


> I personally think that is gyno. But losing fat will help. Dont mean to sound harsh.


I don't have lumps tho ? Or anything alike


----------



## raj-m

Ok thats good sign. Lose the fat and see how you get on mate. It should tighten up once fat levels drop.


----------



## Guest

raj-m said:


> Ok thats good sign. Lose the fat and see how you get on mate. It should tighten up once fat levels drop.


Let's hope mate haha, when I get cold , they tighten up loads, no droop exists when I'm cold, when warm they droop


----------



## raj-m

I know exactly what you mean. In winter I have a wicked chest. In summer I got tits. Lol


----------



## quackfly

Can anyone PM me a reliable online source to get Alpha Pharma Letrozole?

Even good generic will do.

Cheers


----------



## Growing Lad

Mikejfend said:


> Is this gyno? Or just fat ?
> View attachment 162359


Bud get surgery, that is pure gland with fat entwined all around it. You'd have a massive massive improvement imo


----------



## Guest

Growing Lad said:


> Bud get surgery, that is pure gland with fat entwined all around it. You'd have a massive massive improvement imo


Shows how clued up you are, it's gone, was just fat


----------



## Growing Lad

Mikejfend said:


> Shows how clued up you are, it's gone, was just fat


Whats the attitude about?

u got any new pics?


----------



## Guest

Growing Lad said:


> Whats the attitude about?
> 
> u got any new pics?


Wasn't attitude sorry man, yeah got one, it's almost completely gone, bit more fat loss now and I'm there
View attachment 164557


----------



## Growing Lad

Mikejfend said:


> Wasn't attitude sorry man, yeah got one, it's almost completely gone, bit more fat loss now and I'm there
> View attachment 164557


Ok that's a massive improvement, so nice work on the fat loss.

I still think there's a bit of stubborn tissue in there that might become more evident when u get leaner.

Good luck with the fat loss tho bud


----------



## Guest

Growing Lad said:


> Ok that's a massive improvement, so nice work on the fat loss.
> 
> I still think there's a bit of stubborn tissue in there that might become more evident when u get leaner.
> 
> Good luck with the fat loss tho bud


Cheers man,


----------



## micros

Hi to all,

I have been on cycle from about 15 may 2014 to about 20 august 2014, about 14 weeks, so I went on PCT for about a month, I came off from it after being certain my bloods value were good, my cycle was:

- week 1-14: Primo 400mg/w almost sure it was underdosed

- week 1-6: Turinabol 100mg/w almost sure it was underdosed

- week 7-8, 13-14: Tprop 100mg/eod

- week 9-14: Var 100/w almost sure it was underdosed

- week 3-14: HCG 500ui/w, 2 way split

PCT:

-week 1-2: Tamox 40mg/ed, clomid 100/ed

-week 3-4: Tamox 20mg/ed, clomid 50/ed

So in december, almost 4 months after cycle, I started developing some lumps under both the nipples with some pain, I went to the doctor to do some tests and, after have done ultrasound scan he told everything was fine, only talked about augmented skin thickness, I took as self medication Letrozole 2.5mg/e3d for 3 times because I was warried and the lumps were almost gone in 2 weeks, I stopped taking it to be able to get a right hormones blood tests in a month but some little lumps with pain remained. I will take blood test for T, estrogen, prolactin, FSH, LSH in some weeks.

So my question is: How can I proceed if I wanted to do another cycle in the same period this year, maybe setting inside some NPP and taking T all over the cycle?

Cheers


----------



## Mogadishu

First of all use an AI during cycle and IF you get signs use nolva and up the AI dose.


----------



## micros

Judesvinet said:


> First of all use an AI during cycle and IF you get signs use nolva and up the AI dose.


Yeahh I did it during the use of compounds related to aromatase, I did not mention it. Thanks anyway


----------



## Mogadishu

micros said:


> Yeahh I did it during the use of compounds related to aromatase, I did not mention it. Thanks anyway


What did u use then? And how much?


----------



## Rormokare

Unhappy First timer dbol gyno

Hello im on my first cycle dbol 40mg, and i got gyno.. I have no Idea what to do.. Got One lump 1x1cm on each Nipple so i've lowered the dose to 20mg dbol and added 40mg nolva ed.

will this work to stop gyno from growing during cycle and make the lumps shrink after cycle?

can i go back to 40mg dbol or Will IT make it Even worse?

i need help i feel really bad.. I appreciate your answers so much

im on day 12 of cycle.

thanks

btw sorry for spelling im on My phone.


----------



## Guest

Rormokare said:


> Unhappy First timer dbol gyno
> 
> Hello im on my first cycle dbol 40mg, and i got gyno.. I have no Idea what to do.. Got One lump 1x1cm on each Nipple so i've lowered the dose to 20mg dbol and added 40mg nolva ed.
> 
> will this work to stop gyno from growing during cycle and make the lumps shrink after cycle?
> 
> can i go back to 40mg dbol or Will IT make it Even worse?
> 
> i need help i feel really bad.. I appreciate your answers so much
> 
> im on day 12 of cycle.
> 
> thanks
> 
> btw sorry for spelling im on My phone.


Are you taking arimidex ?


----------



## Rormokare

Mikejfend said:


> Are you taking arimidex ?


No My friend only nolva 40mg ed.


----------



## Guest

Rormokare said:


> No My friend only nolva 40mg ed.


Should have subbed arimidex throughout just for the safe side , get some letrozole, but be warned its strong! Read up about it first, then make a decision


----------



## Mogadishu

My friend got gyno in december doing testo/tren/mast and not using any AI ofcourse. He tried letro first but it only made him hating life and the lumps didnt change in size. I told him to get some nolva and ai and that made the trick. He got rid of the left one but the right is stuck at the size of a 1/2 grape. What should he do now? Up the arimidex? He doesnt wanna touch letro since its to harsh for him.

@hackskii


----------



## snuden

Judesvinet said:


> My friend got gyno in december doing testo/tren/mast and not using any AI ofcourse. He tried letro first but it only made him hating life and the lumps didnt change in size. I told him to get some nolva and ai and that made the trick. He got rid of the left one but the right is stuck at the size of a 1/2 grape. What should he do now? Up the arimidex? He doesnt wanna touch letro since its to harsh for him.
> 
> @hackskii


of topice but judesvinet.. your name means jewpig i german/danish..


----------



## Mogadishu

snuden said:


> of topice but judesvinet.. your name means jewpig i german/danish..


Yes I heard, already tried to change the name but Its been 1 month and no change so far.


----------



## hackskii

half a grape?

Wow, that is pretty big, he can give it a shot, nothing to lose but a lump, and some libido....lol


----------



## Dan94

Strange how the letro didn't touch it but Arimidex did?


----------



## Mogadishu

hackskii said:


> half a grape?
> 
> Wow, that is pretty big, he can give it a shot, nothing to lose but a lump, and some libido....lol


Well it was two golfballs before he put in nolva so I guess it worked but now the progress stopped on the left one. I get back to you later sir.



Dan94 said:


> Strange how the letro didn't touch it but Arimidex did?


Arimidex and nolva stopped it and put the E2 at decent levels and everything went smooth. Letro killed his life and libido but 2.5mg ed is to much so he might try lower dosage now.


----------



## EsiMania

using AI and nolva can help for gyno or surgery is the only way?


----------



## Dan94

EsiMania said:


> using AI and nolva can help for gyno or surgery is the only way?


How long have you had it?


----------



## Mogadishu

hackskii said:


> half a grape?
> 
> Wow, that is pretty big, he can give it a shot, nothing to lose but a lump, and some libido....lol


ONE week later and its decreased with 50% haleluja, letro bye bye


----------



## Lewy_h

I'm onto about day 30 letro  nipples still puffy but lumps gone, waiting on Raloxifine


----------



## EsiMania

Mogadishu said:


> ONE week later and its decreased with 50% haleluja, letro bye bye


how it worked?...what did your friend do exactly?


----------



## Mogadishu

EsiMania said:


> how it worked?...what did your friend do exactly?


Nolvadex 40mg first 7 days then 20mg for 3 weeks and now 10mg untill its totally removed. It takes time but u wont feel any sides probably. Letro is stronger BUT may destroy your life if the dose is to high.


----------



## JDBZ

Hello,

I'm currently doing a test E and Dbol cycle, using Dbol to kick start my cycle.

25/mg of dbol during first week, Now on 50/mg for 2nd week and I noticed 2 pea sized lumps under my left nipple.

I'm debating if I should try to go for Nolva or Arimidex?

I don't really wanna go for Letro yet because the lumps have just occurred in the past 2 days.

If I take an AI should I discontinue the Dbol?

Sadly its only my 2nd week of taking it and do not wish to stop but if I really have to then I will.

Lastly, what dosages of AI would help?

Thanks!! Anything helps


----------



## hackskii

Adex now, and you can drop the dbol till the lump is under control, I would take 1mg per day now, then probably taper that back to EOD.


----------



## Mogadishu

Could/will anavar or winstrol raise E2/prog and therefor could cause gyno for humans who are prone to it? Geneticly speaking. I know it wont aromatase.


----------



## hackskii

No.


----------



## GodForbid

gi55 said:


> hey man my situation is very similar to yours have you found any info on how to maybe reverse or shrink the lump. i am curious on trying ralox and or letro. thanks..


Hey sorry it's taken me so long to reply, I haven't been on here for a long time.

I took nolva 20mg for 6 weeks and it is now completely gone. I did a cycle of ostarine and it came back, so I di 3 weeks of Nolva and it went away again.

I'd recommend 20mg of nolva for a max of 12 weeks, if that doesn't work then try Letro.

Hope you get it sorted mate.


----------



## 1manarmy

can anyone actually confirm if adex and nolva can be ran togther without working against each other? i read so many conflicting things


----------



## hackskii

I do think the nolva will lower blood plasma levels of some AI's, I know letro is like 38% blood plasma levels lower at just 20mg per day of nolva, I think it is like 28% for apex with nolva.

And before anyone starts I got the 38% right from the letro's .PDF document from the manufacturer.


----------



## 1manarmy

hackskii said:


> I do think the nolva will lower blood plasma levels of some AI's, I know letro is like 38% blood plasma levels lower at just 20mg per day of nolva, I think it is like 28% for apex with nolva.
> 
> And before anyone starts I got the 38% right from the letro's .PDF document from the manufacturer.


Top advice as usual bud


----------



## JDBZ

hackskii said:


> Adex now, and you can drop the dbol till the lump is under control, I would take 1mg per day now, then probably taper that back to EOD.


Thanks for your reply! I've taken the Adex for a week now but I dont think the lumps have changed in size.

Am I rushing it?

I'm just gonna wait and if it doesn't work I'll switch to Nolva cause it seems like everyone says it works out great!

Thank you!


----------



## Mogadishu

JDBZ said:


> Thanks for your reply! I've taken the Adex for a week now but I dont think the lumps have changed in size.
> 
> Am I rushing it?
> 
> I'm just gonna wait and if it doesn't work I'll switch to Nolva cause it seems like everyone says it works out great!
> 
> Thank you!


Always try nolvadex first and please have patience.


----------



## hackskii

JDBZ said:


> Thanks for your reply! I've taken the Adex for a week now but I dont think the lumps have changed in size.
> 
> Am I rushing it?
> 
> I'm just gonna wait and if it doesn't work I'll switch to Nolva cause it seems like everyone says it works out great!
> 
> Thank you!


Could take up to 3 weeks for blood plasma levels to get up to speed, it won't happen in a week.


----------



## Hudyy

Hello guys I would be very thankfull if you could help me with my problem.

Idid 8 week cycle: 1-8 LGD4033(10-20mg) 5-8 DBOL(20-30mg)

I had some nipple pain in week 3, didn't go away after adding nolva, and after adding adex neither. Then I added proalctin inhib.-parlodel(1,25mg) and pain+sensitivity was gone.

After that I decided to add methan (cause I kept nolva for prevention I thought I could do that).

Everything went fine till pct (raloxifene+albuterox 3week).

In week 2 of pct I added some natural tst booster and after few days my nipples got sensitive again and right nipple started to hurt,

I added adex(1mg)+parlodel(1,25mg)raloxifene 60mg/ED again for nine days

but the pain after I touch right nipple just won't go away then I lowered adex (It really got me down with rege and feeling "well")

currently I am fourth day at 0,5mg adex/ED.

I have small lumps under both nipples, but there is no real mass. I was thinking that it could be swollen gland tissue??? But why does it hurt then 

I was thinking could letrozol help? Wouldn't it do same thing as adex??

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HELP ! pic of mine, whot do you think it is gyno?

View attachment 168368


----------



## JDBZ

Okay thanks guys!

I'll give it some more time, Will keep you guys updated :thumb:


----------



## Rormokare

Hi i got gyno from dbol 40/50 a few lumps and tissues, im on nolvadex atm 40mg ed have Been eating nolva since i got gyno in cycle, i kept dbol cycle, now im Done and doing pct, day 8.

I havent seen Any improvement i looks even worse maybe . Can i have fake nolva?

In going to jump testo gel with half life 6-8 hta spec made for building. Can i Do a letro gyno reversal in that cycle? Cheers


----------



## Mogadishu

Rormokare said:


> Hi i got gyno from dbol 40/50 a few lumps and tissues, im on nolvadex atm 40mg ed have Been eating nolva since i got gyno in cycle, i kept dbol cycle, now im Done and doing pct, day 8.
> 
> I havent seen Any improvement i looks even worse maybe . Can i have fake nolva?
> 
> In going to jump testo gel with half life 6-8 hta spec made for building. Can i Do a letro gyno reversal in that cycle? Cheers


Probably fake or very underdosed(same thing In my ears). Try letro and start low, some ppl get VERY harsh sides and end up jumping from the bridge.


----------



## Rormokare

Mogadishu said:


> Probably fake or very underdosed(same thing In my ears). Try letro and start low, some ppl get VERY harsh sides and end up jumping from the bridge.


Ok thanks yea i do letro when i get testo gel


----------



## ashmo

Rormokare said:


> Ok thanks yea i do letro when i get testo gel


testo gel?


----------



## Rormokare

ashmo said:


> testo gel?


Yeah My friend makes gel from pure testosterone no Ester, that you Apply a few Times a day, with allot better avaibility than testo gel from pharmacy so its made for building.

Cheers


----------



## ashmo

Rormokare said:


> Yeah My friend makes gel from pure testosterone no Ester, that you Apply a few Times a day, with allot better avaibility than testo gel from pharmacy so its made for building.
> 
> Cheers


 :thumb:


----------



## TRT lifter

I'm going to copy a thread to here that I started in the trt section, as the second part has got me really concerned I might be about to get gyno...... I've taken quite alot of aromasin over the past 4 days (including 50mg today). I've got no lumps, just very puffy and a fair bit sensitive. But apart from the nipples, I'm feeling great, really fresh, and libido and function has been the best since starting trt nearly a year ago! Anyway here's the copy:

Hi guys, first off I got my latest blood work......

Free testosterone 329 pmol/L (225-99999)

Prolactin 260mu/L (45-375)

serum testosterone 13.6 nmol/L (10-35)

SHBG 25 nmol/L (10-70)

Oestradiol 112 pmol/L (0-146)

This was taken 4 weeks after my 3rd Nebido shot. Previous shot was 10 weeks after booster shot.

Anything stand out that would explain why I don't think Nebido is really working for me?

I know everything is in range, but is there an imbalance there that can be worked on to improve things?

Second part is I think I'm on the brink of a full blown self inflicted gyno issue.

I've taken 50mg Tbol per day since this test (last thursday) and done 100mg test prop on friday and sunday.

Within about an hour of injecting the first 100mg on friday, my nips went massive, shiny, and real soft. I panicked and took 25mg aromasin.

Woke up saturday morning and nips were still big and soft and felt pressure behind them. So took another 25mg aromasin.

I've now taken 25mg aromasin everyday since friday, and even 37.5 yesterday but still woke up with puffy nips so unsure what to do now.

Nips have calmed down a bit now, but going forward, does 25mg per day seem too much?

Would I be better off adding nolvadex at 20mg per day, and taking my aromasin on shot days only? (I'm planning on 100mg prop eod and tbol at 50 per day). Although I thought aromasin would negate the need for nolvadex.

Maybe there is a chance my tbol is really dbol and that's the problem (although the problems started after 100 prop).

Thanks for any advice, I'm a bit desperate and panicking at the moment!


----------



## hackskii

Prop is very fast, 100mg spikes too much for you so cut the dose to 50.


----------



## TRT lifter

hackskii said:


> Prop is very fast, 100mg spikes too much for you so cut the dose to 50.


Just so I don't mess up again, do you mean 50 eod or 50 every day? Also, I'm guessing real gyno will take time to develop, I should be safe if I can get estrogen controlled in the next few days?


----------



## hackskii

Rapid spikes in testosterone can cause gyno symptoms in as little as a day, even so with hCG.


----------



## TRT lifter

hackskii said:


> Rapid spikes in testosterone can cause gyno symptoms in as little as a day, even so with hCG.


Just my luck, I'm gutted! I noticed in about an hour!!


----------



## hackskii

TRT lifter said:


> Just my luck, I'm gutted! I noticed in about an hour!!


Unless you were playing with your nipples, I doubt an hour it would have spiked estrogen enough to do that.


----------



## TRT lifter

hackskii said:


> Unless you were playing with your nipples, I doubt an hour it would have spiked estrogen enough to do that.


Honestly, as I say there's no lumps but I felt something going on and took a look in the mirror and they were bigger than they've ever been, shiny bright red, but still flat. It was the next day and mornings so far that they've been big, sore, and slight coned. Seem to be nearly back to normal at the moment, just slightly sore (which could be from feeling a lot) and a small pocket of fluid behind them. Hopefully I've caught it in time and will continue with aromasin.


----------



## Dan94

TRT lifter said:


> Honestly, as I say there's no lumps but I felt something going on and took a look in the mirror and they were bigger than they've ever been, shiny bright red, but still flat. It was the next day and mornings so far that they've been big, sore, and slight coned. Seem to be nearly back to normal at the moment, just slightly sore (which could be from feeling a lot) and a small pocket of fluid behind them. Hopefully I've caught it in time and will continue with aromasin.


Were you hot at the time? Sometimes that can increase size or give that illusion


----------



## TRT lifter

Dan94 said:


> Were you hot at the time? Sometimes that can increase size or give that illusion


No, not hot. It's no way placebo either, the mornings they've looked ridiculous! Looking like little tits under my Tshirt too, lucky it's still jumper weather!

Hopefully, they're normalizing though. Only a few seconds of soreness today, and they're looking smaller. (maybe the cold weather)?

Free testosterone 329 pmol/L (225-99999)

Prolactin 260mu/L (45-375)

serum testosterone 13.6 nmol/L (10-35)

SHBG 25 nmol/L (10-70)

Oestradiol 112 pmol/L (0-146)

Would you say I need an AI with those trt results? I've had LOADS of random hard ons and morning wood the last few days. Not sure if that's down to the aromasin or prop though. They're pretty much non existent on TRT.


----------



## Dan94

@hackskii

Quick question - am I right in thinking you can't get gyno back if the glands have been taken out?


----------



## hackskii

Dan94 said:


> @hackskii
> 
> Quick question - am I right in thinking you can't get gyno back if the glands have been taken out?


Correct


----------



## Waffle

Read this whole thread yesterday.. most of it way to technical for me to understand.

After my last cycle i was left with a lump under my right nipple and it does cause it to cone a little when warm. Not great and doesn't depress me but would like to get rid of it.

I tried running Letro 2.5mg ED for about 8 weeks to get rid or reduce it but didn't do much if anything.

Not 100% sure what caused the gyno but my last cycle was:

Test/Tren/Mast/Adex - PCT was Chlomid/Tamoxifen. (Know now i should of added HCG as per Docs Protocol but recovery wasn't that bad and my bloods come back all good)

I actually thought i got the gyno as a rebound from the nolva as i have run chlomid before with no issues and it only appeared after i finished my PCT. I ruled out prolactin gyno as my results come back at 5ng that i am told is relatively low.

So before i look at getting this cut out is there anything else i can try taking as letro was a fail.

I have had a search on the board and found a post but its pretty old and wanted to know if this would be a good option.



Rambo55 said:


> Get some prami mate and start with .25mg 2-4 hours before bed.
> 
> Letro 2.5mg/day for two weeks( gyno should regress a little)
> 
> then half the dose( of letro) for another 2 weeks. Reduce by half again on the 4th week if joints hurt too much.
> 
> Prami should be increased to a max of 1mg/day most dont need more than .5mg/day
> 
> I use it 4 hours before bed otherwise i cannot sleep. Others have to take it right before bed or some split it up .25mg.AM .25mg/PM
> 
> Prami is very individual drug in regards to effects
> 
> After 4 weeks on Letro use Exemestane( aromaisn) to prevent any rebound happening.Use this along with the prami.
> 
> A calorie deficit is suggetsed in any gyno regression, as you need to starve the glandular mass,
> 
> Also avoid insulin spikes( effects me big time) Eating sh*t food made my lump hurt more and the nipple more puffy.
> 
> Start all this now, and run till Xmas and you should be fine mate
> 
> Best of luck


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## Waffle

No one have an idea if the quote is even a protocol for trying to reduce gyno lumps ?


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## hackskii

I reversed my gyno after a cycle using 2.5mg letro per day and it took about a month, then tapered it down.

Not sure why guys use prolactin inhibiting drugs when many cycles prolactin is not an issue.

If estrogen is high, and T low, you may get gyno symptoms.

If estrogen is high, but testosterone is high, you may not get gyno symptoms.

But managing estrogen on cycle is just a good idea.


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## Waffle

hackskii said:


> I reversed my gyno after a cycle using 2.5mg letro per day and it took about a month, then tapered it down.
> 
> Not sure why guys use prolactin inhibiting drugs when many cycles prolactin is not an issue.
> 
> If estrogen is high, and T low, you may get gyno symptoms.
> 
> If estrogen is high, but testosterone is high, you may not get gyno symptoms.
> 
> But managing estrogen on cycle is just a good idea.


Was using an AI on cycle, although my face holds water no matter what i take when Test is involved.

Might have to give Letro another bash then if the above quote by Rambo isn't recommended.

Thanks for the reply :thumbup1:


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## Johnny1011436114567

Dont want to start yet another thread so...

Been on test for 10 days now, been taking adex 1mg ED since i started and ugl nolva the last 3 days. Im pathologically obsessed with my nips...literally checking every minute of the day. Ive always had a bit of a fatty chest and cld feel tiny nodules around my nip and lower pec but theres one in particular got me worried now. Feels like i can slide it side to side and it jumps around a bit, very small and cant be seen. Is this how a gyno lump feels?

I appreciate i sound like a nutcase but this **** is doing my head right in??


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## hackskii

Do not play with your nipples, it increases localized prolactin and that alone can cause an issue.

No way you will get gyno using 1mg ED of adex, if the adex is legit.


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## Johnny1011436114567

hackskii said:


> Do not play with your nipples, it increases localized prolactin and that alone can cause an issue.
> 
> No way you will get gyno using 1mg ED of adex, if the adex is legit.


See thats what Ive been thinking! Alll this manual stimulation must be having some effect haha. Im coming off a cut and, even though ive only slightly increased my meal sizes and carbs Ive gained 12 pounds this week. So it goes without saying most of that is water...which may be building up on my chest giving me that softer look.

Adex is by Accord? Apparently pharma. Tamox is Europharma UGL, not ideal but all he had. Also have Accord Letro on hand...

Worst thing is im only 10 days into this test prop and its my first run. All Ive done so far is freak out about this and not even gains to make up for it. Going to try my best to leave them alone for a couple of days...


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## hackskii

One of the issues with prop is the fast rise in androgens cause spikes in estrogen, making estrogen management a bit harder.


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## Johnny1011436114567

Wishing Id followed the advice of starting with 0.5ml EOD now, went straight in at 1ml. 125mg/ml.

Really appreciate the replies, if I could ask one more thing...Adding Tamox good or bad idea? Ive already started to be fair but theres some mixed opinions out there.

Just read the previous page, do you think 0.5ml ED would be a better way to do it?


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## Dan94

Johnny101 said:


> Wishing Id followed the advice of starting with 0.5ml EOD now, went straight in at 1ml. 125mg/ml.
> 
> Really appreciate the replies, if I could ask one more thing...Adding Tamox good or bad idea? Ive already started to be fair but theres some mixed opinions out there.
> 
> Just read the previous page, do you think 0.5ml ED would be a better way to do it?


Tamox won't do no harm, if you'd rather be safe than sorry and put your mind at rest


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## Cic0

Hello everyone, I state that are in the fourth week of the cycle, composed of 300mg of vis a week and 40mg of win the day, I want to clarify that I assume also arimidex 0.5 mg every 3 days and 250ui hCG 2 times a week. For several days I began to feel discomfort in the chest right to the touch under the nipple do not feel obvious nodules, but if I press toward the inside feels like a slight pain, as if there was a needle under. Unfortunately I also subcutaneous fat right in the area of the chest that makes it even more difficult to understand if there are any lumps. My questions are as follows:

It may have gynecomastia?

That blood tests should I do?

I have to suspend the Vis?

I can only continue with the Win?

Since yesterday I started to supplement with 20mg of nolvadex a day, okay?

If you have tips are happy to hear!

thanks


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## cossie0629

hi i have stopped training for 2 years and was taking sus and deca for many years from 18 to about 29 now im 35 now and i have put a bit of weight on i have had lumps come in my nipples and they hurt so much would it be because i have put weight on that has triggerd Gynecomastia-Male Breast Development., thanks


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## Plate

How do you know the difference between swollen gland tissue and gyno?


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## Mogadishu

Plate said:


> How do you know the difference between swollen gland tissue and gyno?


Touch your tits and if its hard(size of a pee/grape whatever) and sensitive then its time for some action sir. Puffy tits(many ppl mix them up with gyno) is something else and can occur with fat gains, water retention, genetic etc.


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## Plate

Mogadishu said:


> Touch your tits and if its hard(size of a pee/grape whatever) and sensitive then its time for some action sir. Puffy tits(many ppl mix them up with gyno) is something else and can occur with fat gains, water retention, genetic etc.


see that's what's confusing me, when I put my arm behind my head and feel around my nipple its like a strip of gristle and not a ball.

I saw that some asked about inflation of the gland that's why I asked the difference, I started adex at .5 today anyway to see what that does but it is quite puffy..

p.s its not sensitive at all


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