# It's easier to add muscle when you're lean



## Heineken

No it's not! The body is less willing to add muscle when body fat is low because (I forget the rest of this argument off the top of my head)

In your opinion or experience, is there any truth to either statement?

My thinking would be.. gains are more noticeable if you're lean, but how would less body fat have any impact on your ability to add muscle? Something to to with estrogen perhaps? I've always thought higher bf = higher estrogen? Am I way off the mark here?

Discuss away folks


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## Ashcrapper

stop disagreeing with yourself. people will think you are mental


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## Heineken

:lol:


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## Uriel

well strong men get fat and over eat and all the biggest olympians get fat off season and over eat..........answers right there.

How can you be sure of feeding your body adequately if you are lean?


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## Heineken

You can be in a cal surplus without being fat though mate 

Edit: Not disagreeing, just spitballing here


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## Uriel

Heineken said:


> You can be in a *cal surplus without being fat *though mate


how does that work then?


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## Uriel

why do big guys bang on 60 lbs of fat if it is not required?

Not just the odd one, most of them


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## SiPhil

Uriel said:


> why do big guys bang on 60 lbs of fat if it is not required?
> 
> Not just the odd one, most of them


They're greedy gits in the offseason?


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## Smitch

Yeah, that's the excuse i use for being fat too. :thumbup1:


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## mal

fast metab,loads of cardio,play a sport?what is your question

its to vague.why is he lean in the first place!


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## Uriel

SiPhil said:


> They're greedy gits in the offseason?


they haven't found by experience that they gain the most muscle from it then? they are just greedy piggies?


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## Ak_88

Think nutrient partitioning comes into it somewhere with regards to body composition.

Or that may be a fancy buzzword people use, i don't really pay attention.


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## Smitch

Surely it must be harder to stay lean and build muscle, lean is just vanity.


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## SiPhil

Uriel said:


> they haven't found by experience that they gain the most muscle from it then? they are just greedy piggies?


I think they're just making certain they are getting enough calories. It's almost impossible to figure out the exact needs, which could change from week to week. Better to have more than enough to grow lean muscle, but also gain fat, than not enough to grow at the rate they need to.

Lee Priest used to get super fat, not because he needed to but because he just liked to eat crap in the offseason.


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## LittleChris

Insulin sensitivity is much better when you are leanish. Means body is more favourably predisposed to adding muscle than fat.

What guys are banging on 60lbs of fat Uriel? They hold a lot of water without a doubt, but even then they are still lean.


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## ^King Leonidas^

I stay lean all year round and i take in 4000 kcals and loads of carbs and a decent about of fats. And i do cardio once a week but still gain decent but i suppose my time will come :lol:


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## Uriel

LittleChris said:


> Insulin sensitivity is much better when you are leanish. Means body is more favourably predisposed to adding muscle than fat.
> 
> *What guys are banging on 60lbs of fat Uriel?* They hold a lot of water without a doubt, but even then they are still lean.


ok - weight, not only fat. Dorian yates would add 50 lb in the off season for 1


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## Jake1436114563

Less than 12% bodyfat is not desirable for adding muscle. Over 22% is not desirable either, due to increased oestrogen levels.

These are rough figures, I forget teh article.


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## Razorblade

Easier to gain muscle the leaner you are imo


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## Raptor

Razorblade said:


> Easier to gain muscle the leaner you are imo


x2 if you bulk when fat you can gain another 2 stone and you'll just look more fat... If you gain when leaner you will look a lot better


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## Uriel

The Raptor said:


> x2 if you bulk when fat you can gain another 2 stone and *you'll just look more fat*... If you gain when leaner you will look a lot better


no one is talling about how one LOOKS, if your goal is to look good year round you probably don't care about missing out on the odd extra few lbs of muscle.

I gain well when I over eat, I don't gain atall when I stay lean so maybe it is person dependant


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## Seyyed-Merat

Makes me wonder, would it be better for somone to get to a low bf, and from there gain muscle mass but try to maintain being lean, or just try to add musle mass first and then get to a low bf.


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## TH0R

Possibly more than one way to skin a cat??

I like the fact people read one or two articles and take it as gospel:lol:

Only way to find out is to do it yourself, we're all a little different and what works for

Dorian Yates might not work for you


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## TH0R

What I'll add is you can deffo lift more when carrying excess weight so it stands that more

muscle will be added, whether you keep it or not is a different kettle of banana's though


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## Seyyed-Merat

tel3563 said:


> Possibly more than one way to skin a cat??
> 
> I like the fact people read one or two articles and take it as gospel:lol:
> 
> Only way to find out is to do it yourself, we're all a little different and what works for
> 
> Dorian Yates might not work for you


Very good point tel, guess bodybuilding is really a trial and error sport


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## Razorblade

Merat said:


> Makes me wonder, would it be better for somone to get to a low bf, and from there gain muscle mass but try to maintain being lean, or just try to add musle mass first and then get to a low bf.


If you got to a real low bodyfat percent youd see a rebound and rapidly gain muscle once you start eating excess calories again... this is the only reason i do 10 week cuts when cruising, get bodyfat around 8%ish and eat excessively when taking big amounts of aas, so my body is primed for growth when i start whacking in cals and aas again


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## Propper Joss

From a lean state it is possible to add more muscle than fat with training and enough of the right calories for a while, then it becomes more and more difficult to add muscle without adding an increasing amount of fat. It is then possible to lose more fat than muscle for a while before it becomes too costly in terms of lost muscle to lose more fat. Lean body mass gain is a 3 steps forward 1 step back game. Use of various drugs can make it 6-10 steps forward 1 step back, but it still requires constant tweaking.

The reason pros get fat, is that really huge muscles require intra-muscular fat to look that big, which requires a less health conscious approach to gaining muscle in terms of diet and drug use.


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## Team1

For someone of dorians size, 40-50lb isnt a lot % wise an he would still look leanish at that

For the vast majority i think it is impossible to stay lean and gain as well as they could if letting some fat go on. OK...not fat till you have no abs and have a ****load to loose and are likely to end up losing muscle with a more brutal diet than woul be neccessary if you stayed a bit leaner and gainer a lb or two less

Its a bit of a balancing a though isnt it and thers no real easy answer....

1. say ripped and gain a little

2. get fat and gain a lot

3. Try and balance the above two to find a happy medium

I would never get fat again till i lost separation in my legs and abs etc. Thats the wrong end of the balance for me


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## TryingToGetBig

SiPhil said:


> I think they're just making certain they are getting enough calories. It's almost impossible to figure out the exact needs, which could change from week to week. Better to have more than enough to grow lean muscle, but also gain fat, than not enough to grow at the rate they need to.
> 
> Lee Priest used to get super fat, not because he needed to but because he just liked to eat crap in the offseason.












Professional bodybuilder Lee Priest, bulking and cutting phases.


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## Andy Dee

Uriel said:


> no one is talling about how one LOOKS, if your goal is to look good year round you probably don't care about missing out on the odd extra few lbs of muscle.
> 
> I gain well when I over eat, I don't gain atall when I stay lean so maybe it is person dependant


I tried the high fat low carbs but the gains just dont seem to happen.

I never grow unless i over eat, plus i think its the only way for me to ensure maximum muscle gains for me.

If im ever in doubt, i always eat more... not less


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## Heineken

Good discussion 

For those saying they don't grow unless they overeat, what do you mean exactly? There must be a stage surely where you're just adding fat after eating x amount of cals? Do you count adding this fat as 'growth?'

And @ Tel, I'm pretty sure nobody was spouting gospel? I certainly wasn't, I was asking a question


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## kingy_88

good question will be watching this to see othere reply's.

i cant really comment tho never been lean :lol:


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## Raptor

TryingToGetBig said:


> Professional bodybuilder Lee Priest, bulking and cutting phases.


Mate Lee hasn't doen that for yeeeeeears


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## Never Injured

I'm interested to know here too. I don't know whether to cut now or wait until January. I'll probably look like that Lee Priest photo by January.


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## Team1

I think a lot of guys over eat and gain some muscle - probably a bit more than if you stayed lean - and a whack of fat and water and consider it "good growth"

Often you see folk posting gaining 25lb on a 12 week cycle. How much is actual muscle all said and done? 8lb probably lol

I liked the post on dieting to get lean, doign a rebound till you start getting fat then dieting a little again...rebounding again. This has to be the most effective way of increasing muscle mass over the medium to long term (year to 20 month say compared to just one big bulk and cut) but requires all year round discipline that 99% dont have probable me included but im gonna try. About 8 month through a year of this so we will see if i can stick another 6 lol


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## Heineken

Team1 said:


> *I think a lot of guys over eat and gain some muscle - probably a bit more than if you stayed lean - and a whack of fat and water and consider it "good growth"*
> 
> Often you see folk posting gaining 25lb on a 12 week cycle. How much is actual muscle all said and done? 8lb probably lol
> 
> I liked the post on dieting to get lean, doign a rebound till you start getting fat then dieting a little again...rebounding again. This has to be the most effective way of increasing muscle mass over the medium to long term (year to 20 month say compared to just one big bulk and cut) but requires all year round discipline that 99% dont have probable me included but im gonna try. About 8 month through a year of this so we will see if i can stick another 6 lol


This is how I see it too mate.

It makes me laugh that people are so anal about the smallest of things like.. I don't know, when to take their creatine for example.. or.. don't want to run 'too hard' in case they go catabolic, yet happily cut for 3 or 4 months and lose muscle through dieting? Why not just stay fairly lean so you don't have to diet as hard and for as long? Surely by stuffing your face with food you don't necessarily need they just make it harder on yourself?

I guess this thread was aimed more at your average gym rat, not someone that competes. I watched that documentary again on that small group of Welsh teenagers, and when they all refused to take their top's off because they were 'off season' it made me wonder.


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## Uriel

being shredded all year - who thinks that is a possibilty then? and gain too?

also being above 25% BF is just stupid, getting obese offers no benefit....everything else in the middle probably has more or less merit.

For all the guys praising rebound gains...Don't forget what you lost in muscle to get in that state


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## Dsahna

Ive always had better results eating way above surplus,its the only way I can manage to keep gaining and training to failure every workout without doing a deload,whenever ive tried to lean down and maintain the intensity and keep getting stronger I always hit a wall and stop gaining!


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## Tinytom

I've gained more when I've stayed leaner off season.

I've been 94kg a few years ago and no where near as big as I am now at 94kg so weight really isnt the issue

I think overuse of insulin is a prime culprit, more mass can be gained from more food intake for sure but then theres the trade off of a bigger gut due to the body having to process more food.

Plus people massively overeat due to reducing exercise i.e. no cardio offseason.

I dont do 'cardio' on a treadmill but i do kickboxing twice a week to keep fit which doesnt allow me to carry lots of fat but does give me more of an appetite to eat so its a nice trade off.

I think theres definately a lazyness of eating factor with some people. I like my cheats and off season I do like curries etc but I factor that in and eat normally as well so that when I start dieting all I have to do in the first 4 weeks is cut out the cheats in teh week and do a bit of cardio.

I like doing cardio and eat more on my diets now than I did in the past

However I understand some people dont have the flexibility to do 90 minutes cardio a day and so reduce their carbs massively to compensate.

To be honest if you are a comp bber it only matters what you look like on the day fo the show, unless you are also doing it to look good.


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## JBWILSON

I would have thought the answer of this is dependent on each persons idea of what "lean" means. Uriels post suggests that in his mind lean = shredded, but for me I would be happy to call myself lean if i was around the 12 - 15% bf range, but thats cos im currently more than that.

When I trained before my marriage enforced layoff I was very low bf and struggled for every lb of weight. However since starting again the gains are coming with some rapidity on a high protein/low carb diet, but how much of that is muscle memory and how much is due to the extra bf is ayones guess. I imagine that when my bf drops and lbm increases this increase will taper off. If I wanted the gains to continue, which i do, I will at some point have to increase the carbs.

So what would you guys say is the best bf% to try and maintain if looking for steady gains? ...or is it even possible to maintain bf% if you are trying to gain?


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## Prodiver

Heineken said:


> You can be in a cal surplus without being fat though mate  ...


Nope.


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## Prodiver

Uriel said:


> why do big guys bang on 60 lbs of fat if it is not required?
> 
> Not just the odd one, most of them


Because they buy all the old erroneous powerlifting nostrums.


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## Heineken

So taking your 'nope' into consideration then..

Stage 1: Lean, eating maintenance

Stage 2: Same lean subject.. increases calories to make slight surplus.. say 300 or so

Stage 3: Month later.. BOOM! Fat c*nt

Surely not? Care to elaborate?


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## Prodiver

Merat said:


> Very good point tel, guess bodybuilding is really *a trial and error sport*


I do hope not!


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## Prodiver

Heineken said:


> So taking your 'nope' into consideration then..
> 
> Stage 1: Lean, eating maintenance
> 
> Stage 2: Same lean subject.. increases calories to make slight surplus.. say 300 or so
> 
> Stage 3: Month later.. BOOM! Fat c*nt
> 
> Surely not? Care to elaborate?


Yes. Any calorie intake surplus to needs will be stored as fat. Then you'll get fatter slower or faster - depending on the surplus.

You don't need to gain fat to gain muscle.

Most guys follow absurd rules, like they should eat, say, 5000 cals a day, and that 60% of them should be from carbs.

No-one can tell in advance how many calories they'll expend in any day, and no-one agrees what the ideal percentage split is, or even what a balanced diet is!


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## Heineken

*BOOM.*

Game over :lol:

(Cheers for moving the thread without deleting it TT, couldn't decide where it should have gone)


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## Andy Dee

looks like the only thing you can rely on in the end is protein. I guess il stick to the root of eating it like its noones business.

I stopped couting calories a long time ago as discovered all they do in excess is make you fat therefore why should they even be counted.


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## Magic Torch

Uriel said:


> being shredded all year - who thinks that is a possibilty then? and gain too?
> 
> Yes defo, I stayed around 12% this off season eating well and added 4kgs of muscle (on stage at 89kgs this year, last year 84.5).
> 
> For all the guys praising rebound gains...Don't forget what you lost in muscle to get in that state
> 
> True but again you dont need to lose much muscle when dieting if the macros are correct, plus do less intense cardio, more AAS etc etc
> 
> Body is very anabolic once it goes in to a calorie surplus after a diet!





dutch_scott said:


> put it simply.,
> 
> protein builds muscle and is made up of amino acids,


This is the only line I was going to say. Simple. Protein builds muscle not fat.

With Slin, decent diet, Anabolics and plenty of rest you will add muscle.


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## BB73

Not sure whether it's relevant, but a lot of my mates are fatter than me & stronger.

They also eat a lot of crap & still have bigger muscles.

I assume that they have also had to increase muscle size to carry the extra fat, & if they went on a cut they would have a good body in there?


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## Prodiver

BB73 said:


> Not sure whether it's relevant, but a lot of my mates are fatter than me & stronger.
> 
> They also eat a lot of crap & still have bigger muscles.
> 
> I assume that they have also had to increase muscle size to carry the extra fat, & if they went on a cut they would have a good body in there?


It's more likely that they happen to eat more protein as well as fat and carbs in their food.

But bodybuilders can preferentially eat sufficient protein and fat, which will make them musclier and stronger (providing they stress their muscles correctly) without eating too many carbs and gaining flab.


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## hilly

scott and others. I canot imagine any top level national competitor has stayed within 14lb of their contest weight right throughout their careers while making big jumps in muscle gain.

I appreciate some1 such as james l has done so this year due to shows etc and thinks he may be 3or 4 lb heavier.

However most bodybuilders both pro or amatuer in america or on this very board have done bigger bulks at some point and gained alot of muscle mass that just wouldnt have been able to have been done by staying sub 8 or 10%.

scott i no ure a big advocate/follow of DC -dante and he says the above over and over again.

I am yet to see any1 stay sub10% and make huge gains like others do by letting their bf go a little higher say between 13-15%


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## dtlv

I honestly don't think it matters whether your start point is one of being lean or fat so long as you are not either extremely fat or extremely lean (which in both cases have hormonal problems)... any differences between the two in terms of rate of muscle gain are incredibly small I think. New muscle looks more spectacular and obvious when lean, and being fairly lean (non extreme) is certainly healthier... but beyond that, no big differnce IMO.

More important than whether you start out lean or fat is the slightly different question of whether you are in calorie surplus, are roughly matching caloric intake to expenditure, or are in deficit.

In surplus or maintenence (provided you keep recalculating what your maintenence is as your bodyweight goes up) it's pretty easy to gain, but in deficit it is definitely harder to make a net gain of muscle.

This not because the body has a problem being anabolic and growing new muscle when calorie restricted - it still actually grows pretty easily. The problem is increased catabolism robbing you of muscle pretty much as fast as you grow it (or even faster in some cases).

Muscle needs calories to maintain itself... but when in a calorie restricted state, the body spares calories for the organs and the immune system, and in times between feeds also spares energy stores like subcutaneous fat, intramusclualr fat and glycogen for those purposes, whilst at the same time being extra catabolic to muscle to gain the fuel from there.

This process is a metabolic advantage for the body in an energy starved state as, in losing muscle, your maintenence requirement for calories becomes reduced thus reducing the impact on the body of the calorie restriction. This catabolic process is one that protects the body from starvation for as long as possible, but is a process that makes getting extremely lean with very low bodyfat levels (<8%) very hard, and is what the bodybuilder (who normally wants to be lean more than healthy) fights all the time when cutting.

High protein diet may help, as can carbs used around exercise, but the two will still never protect muscle mass one hundred percent against the catabolic effects of a sustained caloric deficit.


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## Magic Torch

Dtlv74 said:


> High protein diet may help, as can carbs used around exercise, *but the two will still never protect muscle mass one hundred percent* against the catabolic effects of a sustained caloric deficit.


This is where drugs come in IMO


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## Uriel

dutch_scott said:


> hardly any olympian or top guy goes over 14 lbs thats INCLUDING WATER AND ANDROGENS, puts mopst at circa my bf% of 8-10% which is very lean to most,


I agree with loads of the content of your post but this is rubbish Dutch. It's easy to view Olympians Off season and contest published Body weights and they don't stay within these values.

Most are between 20 - 45 lbs different and a fair few are more


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## JBWILSON

Uriel said:


> I agree with loads of the content of your post but this is rubbish Dutch. It's easy to view Olympians Off season and contest published Body weights and they don't stay within these values.
> 
> Most are between 20 - 45 lbs different and a fair few are more


out of curiosity, what excess bf do you carry when bulking?


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## Dazzaemm2k7

i heard that when you have a low body fat like 10% you have more testosterone than if you had 20% bf ?

that may sound insane to some people and i'm not saying its true i'm just saying i heard somwhere that the lower your bf the higher your natural test levels ?

And that there IS an optimal level of bf to be at to gain the most about of muscle, it kind of makes sense that there would be an ideal bodyfat level for gaining the most amount of muscle and being the most anabolic, somthing like 8-12% but again this is just stuff i've heard.

Dont know if its true or not !


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## Uriel

JBWILSON said:
 

> out of curiosity, what excess bf do you carry when bulking?


at the end of a dirty grower bulk, (like now) I'm 114kg's and easily 20 odd % and watery


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## JBWILSON

Uriel said:


> at the end of a dirty grower bulk, (like now) I'm 114kg's and easily 20 odd % and watery


I know you do gear so its not entirely relevant to myself, but do you find that the extra fat is beneficial to your training, or could you do the same with slightly less bf? When I say beneficial i mean as far as recovery times, energy in the gym etc.


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## Uriel

JBWILSON said:


> I know you do gear so its not entirely relevant to myself, but do you find that the extra fat is beneficial to your training, or could you do the same with slightly less bf? When I say beneficial i mean as far as recovery times, energy in the gym etc.


I simply don't worry about it mate, I bet I could gain better by doing many things but lifes too short eh?

Why should I count grains of rice when I can just make sure I eat wel, enjoy my scran and my training then diet a it of for the beach:thumbup1:


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## Uriel

dutch_scott said:


> tom blackman did with me, had me 22lbs up and *3st of bf down* and much stronger.


That's 42 lb of lard So until you met Tom you were a fat lazy trainer too?


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## BB73

Dtlv74 said:


> *More important than whether you start out lean or fat* is the slightly different question of whether you are in calorie surplus, are roughly matching caloric intake to expenditure, or are in deficit.


I've always been skinny & my biggest problem gaining muscle is pysically eating enough - I'm just not used to putting that much food in me!

So therefore I think it is easier when you're fat!


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## JBWILSON

so dutch you added 22lbs of muscle when you were carrying 3st of lard...

have you gained 22lbs of muscle over the same time period when you have been 10%bf?


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## Uriel

All you skinny lovers can tell me why Strength athletes (Pl'ers, Strong men, Shot Putters at Olympic level etc) as well as say Rugby players - where Power and Speed are critical......

Don't go below say 15% bf as a priority?

They just don't give a fuk as it does not enhance their speed/power......so it's plainly vanity alone


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## Heineken

Competitive PL's do not need to look good, aesthetics do not come into their sport, pushing numbers is what it's all about.. so yes, you're right they probably don't give a f*ck about their bodyfat. Bodybuilding on the other hand is 110% down to aesthetics, no? So I'm not sure how you can compare the two like that.

If you're just going to call being lean being skinny/vain, I guess it's fair to call people with 20% fat, lazy c*nts then :lol:


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## Smitch

Heineken said:


> Competitive PL's do not need to look good, aesthetics do not come into their sport, pushing numbers is what it's all about.. so yes, you're right they probably don't give a f*ck about their bodyfat. Bodybuilding on the other hand is 110% down to aesthetics, no? So I'm not sure how you can compare the two like that


Because the debate is about putting on muscle not how you look???

It's your thread isn't it? :confused1:


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## JBWILSON

Heineken said:


> Competitive PL's do not need to look good, aesthetics do not come into their sport, pushing numbers is what it's all about.. so yes, you're right they probably don't give a f*ck about their bodyfat. Bodybuilding on the other hand is 110% down to aesthetics, no? So I'm not sure how you can compare the two like that.
> 
> If you're just going to call being lean being skinny/vain, I guess it's fair to call people with 20% fat, lazy c*nts then :lol:


call me a pussy but I'm not going to call uriel a a fat, lazy,cvnt


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## Heineken

Smitch said:


> Because the debate is about putting on muscle not how you look???
> 
> It's your thread isn't it? :confused1:


Yes and the discussion has evolved, has it not?


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## Dig

Uriel said:


> All you skinny lovers can tell me why Strength athletes (Pl'ers, Strong men, Shot Putters at Olympic level etc) as well as say Rugby players - where Power and Speed are critical......
> 
> Don't go below say 15% bf as a priority?
> 
> They just don't give a fuk as it does not enhance their speed/power......so it's plainly vanity alone


I think times are changing in that regard mate re powerlifters, in the lighter/middleweight categories anyway.

Look at competitors 110kg classes and below, the worlds best are in really good shape generally.

Even here in britain 75kg class - dave mannering very lean, 82's - lee cutler, 90s gareth davies/chris j both keep v lean, 100s martin brown, 110s mark cullimore.

These are some of the best pl in britain and all below 15% bf, well below in some cases, which proves you can be lean and super strong.

I, like many many other PL got too caught up in the 'doesnt matter how you look as long as strong', obv this is def the case but also makes most blind to the fact (or at least ignore) that it is not actually neccessary to be fat to be strong.

My guess is that in a few yrs time it will sway even further and PLs will, on the whole, be in better shape and still be among the strongest guys on the planet.


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## Uriel

Heineken said:


> Competitive *PL's do not need to look good, aesthetics do not come into their sport,* pushing numbers is what it's all about.. so yes, you're right they probably don't give a f*ck about their bodyfat. Bodybuilding on the other hand is 110% down to aesthetics, no? So I'm not sure how you can compare the two like that.
> 
> If you're just going to call being lean being skinny/vain, I guess it's fair to call people with 20% fat, lazy c*nts then :lol:


I was still on thread topic about adding muscle mate



Smitch said:


> Because the debate is about putting on muscle not how you look???
> 
> It's your thread isn't it? :confused1:


Thanks, well noticed



Dig said:


> I think times are changing in that regard mate re powerlifters, in the lighter/middleweight categories anyway.
> 
> Look at competitors 110kg classes and below, the worlds best are in really good shape generally.
> 
> Even here in britain 75kg class - dave mannering very lean, 82's - lee cutler, 90s gareth davies/chris j both keep v lean, 100s martin brown, 110s mark cullimore.
> 
> These are some of the best pl in britain and all below 15% bf, well below in some cases, which proves you can be lean and super strong.
> 
> I, like many many other PL got too caught up in the 'doesnt matter how you look as long as strong', obv this is def the case but also makes most blind to the fact (or at least ignore) that it is not actually neccessary to be fat to be strong.
> 
> My guess is that in a few yrs time it will sway even further and PLs will, on the whole, be in better shape and still be among the strongest guys on the planet.


Ok things may be evolving and I happily concede that being Obese like say Glen Ross is not very productive but I disagree that below 15% is the norm now (15% bf is pretty lean TBH)

I still doubt that you'd take an average built guy off the street and build him above his genetic limits as fast as possible without gaining bf, Purely because when you are bulking effectively - it is safer to over eat a little than to under eat:thumbup1:


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## Uriel

JBWILSON said:


> call me a pussy but I'm not going to call uriel a a fat, lazy,cvnt


I'm not that fat lol and I'm anything but lazy - I think I could keep up with any fuker on this forum bar a few and probably embarrass a few too :thumbup1:


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## ekko

Razorblade said:


> If you got to a real low bodyfat percent youd see a rebound and rapidly gain muscle once you start eating excess calories again... this is the only reason i do 10 week cuts when cruising, get bodyfat around 8%ish and eat excessively when taking big amounts of aas, so my body is primed for growth when i start whacking in cals and aas again


This is bang on !

well it was for me i did this last year & it worked a treat :beer:


----------



## gt190

dutch_scott said:


> ill wade in
> 
> shame on anyone who even thinks u need to gain 1 lb of fat in order to gain muscle,
> 
> these types of comments wud make me never trust anything a guy saying this says ever, shows TOTAL lack of any basic knowledge let alone the complex ****e people copy and paste to pass off..
> 
> toms totally right, and so am i wen i say hardly any olympian or top guy goes over 14 lbs thats INCLUDING WATER AND ANDROGENS, puts mopst at circa my bf% of 8-10% which is very lean to most,
> 
> put it simply.,
> 
> protein builds muscle and is made up of amino acids,
> 
> fat is fat. now why in gods name wud the human body react to training stimulus which breaks it down and care what else bar protein is being put it for that goal. (dont jump gun im talkinmg soley muscle damage to repair, the alarm process)
> 
> bodys r build via stress.
> 
> iv gained 10kg on shoulder press drug free WHILST dropping 16lbs and bf,
> 
> how
> 
> cos i made sure my body was under micro incremental overload every session. this means the body has to adapt wen fed protein.
> 
> this aint the `1980s, MUSCLE is build minutes, hours not by daily calorie totals whch can fluctuate via energy out, ie, day 1 ur in bed, 2 office 3 running around alton towers.
> 
> body uses carbs for brain and energy, u can use stims to launch a pb on a workout,
> 
> fats for homone,energy priomary 2, and protein growth and replacement, so why o why do u need to gain any fat. makes zero sense. ever.
> 
> guys get fat cos its easy, its hard training at 8% lean but doesnt impact damage done vrs repair. how can it. once ur body is fed amino acids it shuttles them wr damage is done. doesnt care at that moment wat fat or carb it has. its an adaptive organism which must LIVE AND SURVIVE.
> 
> all this surplus cal 80s crap. why do u think at 11.59 pm body says ah right we got 300cals extra, yep, cool lets repair that bicep. idiotic and dangerously way off base.
> 
> alarm signal goes off, body shuttles to igf receptors and the adaption overcompensation prcoess begins. all u need is to be in a state of positive nitrogen balance and ull repair. basic.
> 
> once repaired said muscle will weigh "x" , enuff alarm phases and few months later ur same bf and x ammount heavier.
> 
> eat more carbs and fat than u need via simply adding micro ammouns and using a mirror and ur gna add surplus as body has no muscle building use for it.
> 
> like MOST top guys, shovel protein like u cant get enuff, eat carbs wen u need energy, consume good fats and ull grow and stay lean
> 
> more efficient lean mass u have higher resting met rate more crap ur body will use as energy.


 :thumb:


----------



## dtlv

I think most people would agree with the following:

Eat exactly as much as you need = build muscles

Eat a little more than you need = still build muscles

Eat a little less than you need = not build as much muscle

What people may well disagree on with the above though is exactly what is being talked about... is what you need either ''a little more of'' or ''exactly the right amount of'' total calories, or is it total amount of protein and other nutrients?

Personally i think both are important, and can see what uriel is saying about eating a little more to cover all bases.


----------



## Uriel

Dtlv74 said:


> Personally i think both are important, and can see what uriel is saying about eating a little more to cover all bases.


Thanks mate, that's all i'm getting at......

No one can defend fatness for the sake of it, it's just like carrying a supply of food under your skin but to maximise growth - best to ensure the body gets all it requires:thumbup1:

I've already covered rebound.I bet I've put on more muscle in the last 2 years than any rebound on this thread


----------



## ekko

i agree with you uriel in terms of gaining tissue the quickest way is to get outta shape but if you can get in shape 1st the gains will be greater agreed ?


----------



## hilly

i think every1 should read this thread. Dante knows his **** and alot he says makes sense to me and i no scott is a big advocate also

http://www.professionalmuscle.com/forums/professional-muscle-forum/62679-i-absolutely-love-stuff-like-absolutely-love.html


----------



## J.E

no offenece uriel

But from where im sat it looks like you are just trying to make yourself believe that carrying a lil extra fat is necessary, because you dont want to put the effort in to get lean.

And correct me if im wrong but you dont compete Uriel so whats the point in carrying extra fat to try and put more mass on, when you can just stay lean all year round and look shiit hot and still gain but maybe a little less than you could do with carrying extra fat.

I may be way off mate, but thats just what im seeing


----------



## Uriel

J.E said:


> no offenece uriel
> 
> But from where im sat it looks like you are just trying to make yourself believe that carrying a lil extra fat is necessary, because you dont want to put the effort in to get lean.
> 
> And correct me if im wrong but you dont compete Uriel so whats the point in carrying extra fat to try and put more mass on, when you can just stay lean all year round and look shiit hot and still gain but maybe a little less than you could do with carrying extra fat.
> 
> I may be way off mate, but thats just what im seeing


I've been lean bud many times, and I will compete:thumbup1: not for a joke though, I'll be large when I do


----------



## Heineken

hilly said:


> i think every1 should read this thread. Dante knows his **** and alot he says makes sense to me and i no scott is a big advocate also
> 
> http://www.professionalmuscle.com/forums/professional-muscle-forum/62679-i-absolutely-love-stuff-like-absolutely-love.html


Don't suppose you could quote the post could you mate?

I don't want to register tbh, not sure I could wade through all the steroid/synthol/needle ad's to find out where to sign up anyway :lol:

ekko you look superb in that second picture!


----------



## hilly

no mate its 4 pages long with pics etc showing people putting 20lb stage weight on in a year


----------



## martin brown

ekko said:


> i agree with you uriel in terms of gaining tissue the quickest way is to get outta shape but if you can get in shape 1st the gains will be greater agreed ?


I don't get this rebound thing TBH. Cutting and bulking leaves people small and fat. It's like normal people dieting....



Dtlv74 said:


> I think most people would agree with the following:
> 
> Eat exactly as much as you need = build muscles
> 
> Eat a little more than you need = still build muscles
> 
> Eat a little less than you need = not build as much muscle
> 
> What people may well disagree on with the above though is exactly what is being talked about... is what you need either ''a little more of'' or ''exactly the right amount of'' total calories, or is it total amount of protein and other nutrients?
> 
> Personally i think both are important, and can see what uriel is saying about eating a little more to cover all bases.


Yeah I agree. And I'm with Uriel on this one - and Prodiver previously -

You cant calculate daily energy requirements accurately. More calories are needed than base line to grow when training for growth. If calorie demands are not met growth is hindered greatly.

It's a fine line between enough and not enough - the quickest way to put on some real beef is to eat a little more and be safe that all needs are met.

Sure no-one needs to be obese to gain muscle but that's not the point. If your worried about losing your lower abs I guarantee your not growing to the degree you could be.

The people who don't go above a stone over contest weight never look any better each year - or they put 3-4 lbs on. Great if you're already at national level but absolutely useless if your 10 stone.

Interesting thread!

M


----------



## warren

marftin has summed it up for me in a more accurate way than i could lol, but ill give my 2 p anyway.

to the post stating uriel is trying to legitimise carrying fat i think you have picked it up wrong or at least differently to me. i totally get what he is saying.

i could not tell you how many kcals i need each day, virtually impossible as i havent a clue what i will be doing form day to day, so i just eat plenty, yeah i have a set aim i aim for but that is just my own base line i like to play with. then if i start getting fat im eating too much if im not gaining i need more. however i think you can eat more kcals than required and not get fat, as long as you are putting on more muscle than fat then you will get leaner.

if i gain 2lbs over so much and no fat great, but is it not just as good to gain 4lbs and 1lbs of fat in the same period? i know then i have added fat but because i have added more mucle than fat my bf% will slowly come down ?

since oct last year i have gone from 180 - 17%ish to 212-215lbs now with around 15% bf%.

i think there is a difference between 1- eating over kcals 2- plain just getting fat 3- watching your bf% 4- worryiong about bf% so much you limit gains

just my 2p


----------



## J.E

oooooo surprise, the out of shape guy tries to defend putting on fat !!!

I agree with the kcals thing, but FFS if you can see your putting on some fat, do a little AM cardio or drop some carbs until it goes, its not hard, and its not gonna stop you gaining muscle, it might even help with gaining.

But if you wanna keep making excuses for putting on fat, then go ahead, your the one whos gonna look shiit at the end of the day.


----------



## Uriel

I was *11 stone 4 lbs* 13 years ago when I started bodybuilding seriously.

When you are 11 odd stone and you want to get big and strong - I found what I had to do

My weight has fluctuated as I've got into different things but I stand today at 18 stone and I can tell you it aint all fat baby xx


----------



## Uriel

J.E said:


> oooooo surprise, the out of shape guy tries to defend putting on fat !!!
> 
> I agree with the kcals thing, but FFS if you can see your putting on some fat, do a little AM cardio or drop some carbs until it goes, its not hard, and its not gonna stop you gaining muscle, it might even help with gaining.
> 
> But if you wanna keep making excuses for putting on fat, then go ahead, your the one whos gonna look shiit at the end of the day.


Your photo is going to be required to back you gigantic mouth pretty soon chummy boy


----------



## J.E

Ill gladly post pic when i get a cam mate, im not "BIG" by anymeans, but imo im in ok shape for a 18 year old and stay reasonably lean all the time, i just dont see the point in non-competitors gaining unecessary fat, its just lazy IMO.


----------



## Uriel

J.E said:


> Ill gladly post pic when i get a cam mate, im not "BIG" by anymeans, but imo im in ok shape for a 18 year old and stay reasonably lean all the time, i just dont see the point in non-competitors gaining unecessary fat, its just lazy IMO.


well if you are a little skinny c unty gob sh1te - with no muscle, I'm going to rip the sh1t out of you

You don't have a mobile phone with blue tooth??

Look forward to the pic :thumbup1:


----------



## J.E

ill tell you what Uriel

when i get a cam ill post my pic up and then you can post a pic of you when you were 18 and if i look better than you, I will rip the shiit out of you yeah ?


----------



## Prodiver

As Scott and Dtlv say, you can gain muscle without gaining fat if you eat enough protein and find just enough calories for your needs - from food and/or bodyfat.

The rate at which you gain muscle will depend on several things, but chiefly how much hypertrophic stress your body can take without overtraining. If you work out a lot your calorie needs will of course rise.

You do not need to gain fat to gain muscle. You will not gain more muscle than otherwise by eating excess calories and putting on more fat!

It's not too fine a line between eating enough and too much - if you get a bit porkier over two or three days, just back off the carbs a bit.

At first, if you are in a slight calorie defecit you may feel weaker, but it takes some days for your body to realize it's no longer going to get much carbs and to mobilize its bodyfat more readily.

You won't lose muscle by being in a calorie defecit until your bodyfat levels get quite low.


----------



## Uriel

J.E said:


> I will rip the shiit out of you yeah


I'm sh1tting it already sweet cheeks:laugh:


----------



## J.E

ditto


----------



## Heineken

Oh, you girls :lol:


----------



## Team1

I think a point to make and agrees with Uriel a bit is that most of us want a bit of a life....do things at random, have the odd burger and a pint....

So with this in mind, for me....gaining a little fat, having a decent life when taking "time off" and also having plenty to eat to guarantee that the food is all there to feed the heavy duty workouts. Ok....you dont need to gain fat to gain muscle and the line isnt overly fine...but for me i cna handle a few lb of ****e if it means im defo grwing the most i can but also keeping to maybe 10%


----------



## J.E

You can have a life and still stay lean, i get smashed most weekends and still stay sub 15% year round mate.

Oh and thanks for the negs


----------



## big_john86

J.E said:


> You can have a life and still stay lean, i get smashed most weekends and still stay sub 15% year round mate.
> 
> Oh and thanks for the negs


 i was the same at 18 mate but things will change


----------



## warren

J.E said:


> You can have a life and still stay lean, i get smashed most weekends and still stay sub 15% year round mate.
> 
> Oh and thanks for the negs


depends what definition of lean is? one of my mates is around 13% and lots people comment saying he is ''ripped''. im 15% and probly ;lean to your average man but to alot on here im a fat cvnt lol, feel massivly fat.

you may think sub 15% is lean others may say well if your over 10% your arnt lol if you get me.


----------



## Razorblade

J.E said:


> You can have a life and still stay lean, i get smashed most weekends and still stay sub 15% year round mate.
> 
> Oh and thanks for the negs


you probs look like a skinny sack of sh|te


----------



## SiPhil

Uriel said:


> My weight has fluctuated as I've got into different things but I stand today at 18 stone and I can tell you it aint all fat baby xx


4 stone of digested haggis in your colon and 3 stone of love in your y-fronts?


----------



## Magic Torch

martin brown said:


> The people who don't go above a stone over contest weight never look any better each year - or they put 3-4 lbs on. *Great if you're already at national level but absolutely useless if your 10 stone*.
> 
> Interesting thread!
> 
> M


I think that is the point, at differnet levels you know your body better too, and know how much and when your body needs certain things.

If your a new trainer then generally you need to just get the weight on, and more is defo better than less.

Again I go back to the point about drugs, this makes it far easier to lean bulk than when natty.


----------



## Guest

Magic Torch said:


> I think that is the point, at differnet levels you know your body better too, and know how much and when your body needs certain things.
> 
> *If your a new trainer then generally* *you need to just get the weight on, and more is defo better than less.*
> 
> Again I go back to the point about drugs, this makes it far easier to lean bulk than when natty.


See, i wouldnt agree with that.

I dont really want to get into this as ill be over my head pretty quick and lets face it, im one of the higher BF% guys on here.

But adding weight for weights sake, especially when starting out is somewhat deluded and pointless. No?


----------



## Magic Torch

mikex101 said:


> See, i wouldnt agree with that.
> 
> I dont really want to get into this as ill be over my head pretty quick and lets face it, im one of the higher BF% guys on here.
> 
> But adding weight for weights sake, especially when starting out is somewhat deluded and pointless. No?


Point being you wouldn't know how much lean tissue you have to know how much protein/cals/fat you need, you wouldn't know as well how you react to certain foods, how to time your carbs etc.... So rather than risk undereating (as Marty B and Uriel are saying) where you wont grow as much, its better to eat more than less!

I agree with Martin and Uriel, best to eat more than less, your defo going to want to risk adding a stone in fat for half a stone in lean mass....BUT when you know (through cutting diets and comps etc) what your body reacts well too and grows from (and again which drugs work) then you dont always need to get in to the excess body fat levels. Plus also, it depends how much it takes over your life.....do you want to watch cals every day or can you enjoy your self a little more and eat less monitored and have a little BF and still grow?

From my experience last year I dieted all year on the same foods as when comp prep - just more of them. I added 4kgs of muscle (on stage at 85 last year, 89 this year same BF%) so I know for a fact I stayed at 12% BF and added 9lbs LBM. Reason for this is I wanted to do a show at short notice and grow so I wanted to keep an eye on how I looked. I only had a 7 week diet rather than a 12-14 week diet, which was actually better for my karma lol but I still added decent mass. It was hard to stay commited for a year tho, but yeah I added decent muscle....

This year I will have a more relaxed year and prob get a few % higher, as I plan on eating a little more relaxed, just more food on weekends. We'll see if I add more muscle.

I think in response to the OP's question "Its easier to add muscle when your lean"....NO its hard to gain muscle whatever you do, but as long as you eat, lift, train and rest you will, with or without BF!


----------



## 54und3r5

Excellent response magic!


----------



## Prodiver

I get what you're saying, Jamie (good to see you at the Kent last Sunday, btw), but when we're "bulking" we don't actually need to know or worry about our lean bodyweight - eating, say, 1 gm protein per lb actual bodyweight per day will ensure adequate protein intake.

This of course means weighing ourselves frequently and upping the protein as we get heavier.

Thereafter we don't need to count calories - we just need to keep an eye on how porky we are and adjust our carbs a bit.

This way we can eat just about anything we like and enjoy good food - especially meat and fats - without getting stressed about it.

Of course, true cutting for a comp requires much closer attention and control, but staying leanish while growing makes cutting much easier.


----------



## snakebulge

54und3r5 said:


> Excellent response magic!


X 2 on that mate! :thumb:


----------



## Guest

Point being you wouldn't know how much lean tissue you have to know how much protein/cals/fat you need, you wouldn't know as well how you react to certain foods, how to time your carbs etc.... So rather than risk undereating (as Marty B and Uriel are saying) where you wont grow as much, *its better to eat more than less!*

Yeah, id agree with that, but if your serious about training and BBing then manipulating your diet, even as a noob, shouldnt be too hard providing you have the determination to do it.

I agree with Martin and Uriel, best to eat more than less, your defo going to want to risk adding a stone in fat for half a stone in lean mass....BUT when you know (through cutting diets and comps etc) what your body reacts well too and grows from (and again which drugs work) then you dont always need to get in to the excess body fat levels. Plus also, it depends how much it takes over your life.....do you want to watch cals every day or can you enjoy your self a little more and eat less monitored and have a little BF and still grow?

A little BF i accpet, but theres seems to be an argument in this thread that you need to put on substantial amounts of fat in order to obtain muscular hypertrophy at the highest rate?

If your adding fat, then surely your providing your body with more than it needs, if your adding fat at high rate your eating far too many useless cals. I dont accept that a slight tweak in diet couldnt be applied to slow the rate of fat gain?

If your adding fat due to external factors, like Life, then thats a totally different matter. your then not adding fat to gain muscle, your adding fat as a by product of having fun.

I will however bow to your superior knowledge of of cutting, comps, drugs and getting lean as i havnt seen an ab for a long long time.

From my experience last year I dieted all year on the same foods as when comp prep - just more of them. I added 4kgs of muscle (on stage at 85 last year, 89 this year same BF%) so I know for a fact I stayed at 12% BF and added 9lbs LBM. Reason for this is I wanted to do a show at short notice and grow so I wanted to keep an eye on how I looked. I only had a 7 week diet rather than a 12-14 week diet, which was actually better for my karma lol but I still added decent mass. It was hard to stay commited for a year tho, but yeah I added decent muscle....

This year I will have a more relaxed year and prob get a few % higher, as I plan on eating a little more relaxed, just more food on weekends. We'll see if I add more muscle.

9lbs over a year at your level doesnt sound bad to me. and dropping 5-7 weeks off your normal comp prep must have had its benefits along the lines of keeping not only your sanity but more of your gains too??

Good luck with the next year.

I think in response to the OP's question "Its easier to add muscle when your lean"....NO its hard to gain muscle whatever you do, but as long as you eat, lift, train and rest you will, with or without BF!

Amen :thumb:


----------



## Magic Torch

Prodiver said:


> I get what you're saying, Jamie (good to see you at the Kent last Sunday, btw), but when we're "bulking" we don't actually need to know or worry about our lean bodyweight - eating, say, 1 gm protein per lb actual bodyweight per day will ensure adequate protein intake.
> 
> This of course means weighing ourselves frequently and upping the protein as we get heavier.
> 
> Thereafter we don't need to count calories - we just need to keep an eye on how porky we are and adjust our carbs a bit.
> 
> This way we can eat just about anything we like and enjoy good food - especially meat and fats - without getting stressed about it.
> 
> Of course, true cutting for a comp requires much closer attention and control, but staying leanish while growing makes cutting much easier.


No I agree, of course my eyes are tainted (as with everyone) with what I have been doing the last year. This year I will be using the eye method, as long as I dont get too porky.

Was good to see you too mate, sorry I could chat longer my food was waiting at the snack bar lol I wanted to catch up with you and Joss, but I ended up going soon afte the pre judge, only really went to get my pics from Eric lol


----------



## Magic Torch

mikex101 said:


> Yeah, id agree with that, but if your serious about training and BBing then manipulating your diet, even as a noob, shouldnt be too hard providing you have the determination to do it.
> 
> Yeah as a base, but you need a good while trial and error to be accurate IMO
> 
> A little BF i accpet, but theres seems to be an argument in this thread that you need to put on substantial amounts of fat in order to obtain muscular hypertrophy at the highest rate?
> 
> I think this is the argument with energy levels and BF adding this.
> 
> If your adding fat, then surely your providing your body with more than it needs, if your adding fat at high rate your eating far too many useless cals. I dont accept that a slight tweak in diet couldnt be applied to slow the rate of fat gain?
> 
> Agreed mate, but again what do you cut, carbs? But will that effect your energy levels if you cut carbs at wrong time of day? Will this stop your strength? then knock on to muscle gain?
> 
> If your adding fat due to external factors, like Life, then thats a totally different matter. your then not adding fat to gain muscle, your adding fat as a by product of having fun.
> 
> Defo a good point!
> 
> I will however bow to your superior knowledge of of cutting, comps, drugs and getting lean as i havnt seen an ab for a long long time.
> 
> Haha no mate, I only know what has worked for me
> 
> 9lbs over a year at your level doesnt sound bad to me. and dropping 5-7 weeks off your normal comp prep must have had its benefits along the lines of keeping not only your sanity but more of your gains too??
> 
> Good luck with the next year.
> 
> Amen :thumb:


I only know what works for me, I've done 4 shows now and only now do I feel confident in what I am doing re diet. Experience is the only way to learn. I could never tell anyone else what to do.


----------



## Uriel

yeah - I know how to add muscle...lets hope I can learn how to hold onto the [email protected] when coming below 12%.I'll be pooing myself


----------



## Uriel

SiPhil said:


> 4 stone of digested haggis in your colon and *3 stone* of love in your y-fronts?


3 oz more like:laugh:


----------



## Magic Torch

Uriel said:


> yeah - I know how to add muscle...lets hope I can learn how to hold onto the [email protected] when coming below 12%.I'll be pooing myself


Easy..............drugs :lol:


----------



## dtlv

Perhaps the answer to the best approach (for a bodybuilder) lies not in the effects of the off season/weight gain phases but in the pre contest/cutting phase... if you bulk on 100 kcals above maintenece a day then you will obviously gain less fat overall than by bulking with 500kcals extra per day.

Each approach may be pretty much the same in terms of how much muscle they help you add in the off season, but when it comes to cutting if you are fatter you will need to cut much more aggresively and/or for longer... since calorie deficits always have a catabolic effect on muscle no matter your starting bodyfat percentage (although they do get more catabolic to muscle the leaner you get), you would then potentially lose more muscle if you start from being fatter and have to cut longer and more severely.


----------



## glen danbury

anyone read my GREAT article in the latest issue of the beef? no well here it is :lol: :thumb:



*Bulking an objective view<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" /><o></o>*
​
<o> </o>

Back in the day bodybuilders would have clear different periods -bulking and cutting. Bulking would be periods of heavy training combined with copious eating for muscle gain and cutting would be dieting combined with cardio and cutting agents in order to get lean. Over the last decade it appears that bulking and cutting in there previous extreme guises have fallen out of favour and bodybuilders are favouring to remain lean as possible by eating close to their maintenance calorie needs in an attempt to gain lean muscle solely.<o></o>

So whose right - the guy sporting abs year round or the guy who looks like Michelin man for two thirds of the year? Well lest take a look at the benefits of both approaches<o></o>

<o> </o>

*The case for bulking<o></o>*

*<o>* *</o>*

In very simple terms you can not build something out of nothing. There has to be building blocks to create new tissue. There has to be a surplus of both protein to provide the building blocks of muscle as well as fuel for the metabolic process of creating the muscle and substrates to store as fuel within the muscle (i.e glycogen and intramuscular fat stores). Considering this we can see that having a deficit of calories would potentially halt this process - the question then becomes of how much calories are required to gain new tissue. Some use a very direct estimation by working out how many calories a pound of lean tissue is 'worth' in caloric terms - i.e. a pound of fat has 3500kcals stored energy and a pound of lean tissue provides around 600kcals this would mean that you only need a daily increase of 20kcals a day if you where to build a pound of muscle per month.<o></o>

This type of thinking is too myopic and there is a variety of processes required to build that muscle which require energy which would bump that figure up.<o></o>

It would appear that there is a direct linear relationship between calorie excess and protein synthesis - as study in the eighties by Chiang and Haung showed that nitrogen balance increased from 7.2 to 23.8 to 33.3 mg N.kg-1.d-1 in the ascending calorie series respectively with 0, 15, 30% above kcal "needs". This would suggest that up to a certain point increasing the calories above maintenance would increase the protein being created into muscle the more you increase the added calories - staying close to maintenance does not have the same effect and a reasonably big increase in calories over maintenance is required to optimize the muscle building effect.

Heck it appears that even without exercise overeating has a muscle building effect as simply overeating causes some muscle gain with roughly 10-13% of any weight gain being muscle (Roberts 1990) even without any resistance exercise to stimulate protein synthesis. A lot of this has to do with the environment large calorie surplus creates metabolically - put simply overeating creates a cellular environment which is conducive to muscle building.<o></o>

Some of this has to do with insulin and the mTOR pathway which has got a lot of press lately with leucine supplementation. Increasing leucine will stimulate the mTOR pathway which will act as a translation signaller for protein synthesis and this is synergistic with insulin via the phosphoinositol 3-kinase signaling pathway (Norton and layman 2006). Obviously both of these pathways are easier to activate in a calorie surplus as you're more likely to have greater insulin responses and a larger potential dose of leucine<o></o>

Recent data suggest that insulin stimulates Testosterone production and suppresses SHBG production in normal and obese men (haffner 1996), this would indicate that consuming large meals high in carbohydrates and other insulinotropic compounds would make the person more prone to be in an anabolic state - as the saying goes ''getting big is a battle and my weapon of choice is a fork''.<o></o>

As can be seen there is plenty of reasons for heading down the eating big to get big route - but before you start shovelling food indiscriminately down your mouth there are some potential down sides which need to be considered.<o></o>

<o> </o>

*The case against<o></o>*

Eating big to get big does have its draw backs in that this approach will mean a rise in body fat to accompany any new strength or muscle gained. For some this is a fair trade off especially those who compete and only need to reach peak leanness once or twice a year. For others being bloated with fat would undermine the reason they train and eat to build muscle in the first place - to look good! Considering this it's clearly a personal choice as to whether you want to optimise muscle gain and sacrifice some conditioning in the process.<o></o>

However there is some physiological issues to be considered as well which may blunt the muscle building if the bulking gets out of hand.<o></o>

When you overeat any calories it will either be stored or burnt off, typically its stored and this will mean either storage of fat or lean tissue (both protein and glycogen) the ratio of fat to muscle gained is typically termed the partitioning ratio or P-ratio. The higher the P-ratio the more muscle gained relative to fat - as seen early purely overeating on its own creates a 15% of weight gained as muscle - this would be classed as a low or poor ratio, adding in resistance training would mean more muscle is built and the P-ratio would go up.<o></o>

One of the key determinants of P-ratio is bodyfat, as the higher your bodyfat the greater the ratio of fat to muscle gained or lost (Dulloo and jacquet 1999, Bray 1996). As such as you become fatter you are more likely to gain a greater ratio of fat than muscle for each additional pound of bodyfat. As such gaining large amounts of bodyfat whilst bulking up may mean that as time passes it becomes harder and harder to gain more muscle without getting fatter and fatter (nice catch 22 isn't it?)<o></o>

A second issue with getting fatter due to bulking is the potential for hormonal changes. Fat cells are a key producer of estrogen through aromatase and the higher your bodyfat the greater your estrogen conversion - not something typically thought of as a great move when trying to build muscle. As such keeping your bodyfat in check would be a key step in ensuring the hormonal milieu is skewed towards building muscle which isn't easy when in a large calorie surplus all the time.<o></o>

The last major issue is that of gaining large amounts of fat is typically at some point people will want to rid themselves of the bodyfat to reveal the muscle gained in the bulking process - typically this will often result in a lot of the muscle gained being dieted off so for the average weight trainer there is a roller coaster of gaining the muscle and getting fat and then dieting the muscle away as they attempt to strip the fat off they gained in the bulking process.<o></o>

<o> </o>

*So what to do?<o></o>*

There is clear that when trying to gain muscle a calorie surplus is required bt that increase in calories has a double edge sword - considering this the more moderate sensible approach is to increase calories just enough so muscle is built at a nice slow steady pce and bodyfat levels stay roughly the same.<o></o>

The problem is bodybuilders don't do moderation, so what other choices are there?<o></o>

Typically many modern athletes will cycle there training - having periods of lowered intensity and volume in order to allow recovery with periods building in intensity and volume to create overload and cause adaptations - it should be clear that ramping up calories during the higher calorie periods would be beneficial. Whilst working back up to previous bests large calorie surpluses are probably not required as muscle memory combined with modest calorie surplus would suffice but come the period of breaking into new strength and size the calories should be increased significantly. This cycling of calories will limit the potential fat gain because it restricts the period of time spent in large hypercalorie states.<o></o>

A second option is to consume copius amounts of calories but try and do everything to shift the P-ratio into a more favourable state of muscle gain rather than fat. This can be done in three ways. The first is to keep active, doing low level cardio and generally being more active will heighten glucose sensitivity and shift more storage towards fat as long as the load and intensity of the increased activity doesn't become such that it impacts your weight training. Secondly you could ensure that calories in the day are consumed mostly around periods of higher activities such as the workouts (I often recommend anywhere from twenty five to forty percent of calories be consumed circa workouts).<o></o>

Lastly there is the choice of using any glucose disposal agents to aid increasing P-ratio, there potentially are many drugs out there that could do this but I would only recommend natural WADA non-prohibited substances such as R-alphalipoic acid, cinnamon extract, vinegar, vandyl sulphate and fenugreek to name a few. By ensuring the xtra consumed calories are shuttled towards lean tissue you improve the return of your bulking efforts.<o></o>

<o> </o>

Overall whether you choose to bulk or not is a personal choice based upon how you want to look year round and the rate of gains you receive. What is clear though is a calorie surplus is required and some things can increase your odds of gaining more muscle than fat - ultimately the choice is yours how far you wish to take your 'bulk' in the pursuit of muscle.<o></o>

<o> </o>

<o> </o>

References<o></o>



Roberts, S., et al. Energy expenditure and subsequent nutrient intakes in overfed young men. Am J Physiol 1990 Sep;259(3 Pt 2):R461-9.<o></o>


Chiang & Huang, Am J Clin Nutr 1988<o></o>


Haffner, S. Sex hormone-binding protein, hyperinsulinemia, insulin resistance and noninsulin-dependent diabetes. Horm Res 1996;45(3-5):233-7.<o></o>


Norton , Layman 2006. Leucine Regulates Translation Initiation of Protein Synthesis in Skeletal Muscle after Exercise. J. Nutr. 136: 533S-S537,


Dulloo AG, Jacquet J. The control of partitioning between protein and fat during human starvation: its internal determinants and biological significance. Br J Nutr. (1999) 82:339-56.


Bray GA. GENETICSS hypothesis of nutrient partitioning. Progress in Obesity Research:7 (1996) 43-48.


----------



## dtlv

Nice article Glen... very good in fact :thumbup1:


----------



## Magic Torch

Dtlv74 said:


> Perhaps the answer to the best approach (for a bodybuilder) lies not in the effects of the off season/weight gain phases but in the pre contest/cutting phase... if you bulk on 100 kcals above maintenece a day then you will obviously gain less fat overall than by bulking with 500kcals extra per day.
> 
> Each approach may be pretty much the same in terms of how much muscle they help you add in the off season, but when it comes to cutting if you are fatter you will need to cut much more aggresively and/or for longer... since calorie deficits always have a catabolic effect on muscle no matter your starting bodyfat percentage (although they do get more catabolic to muscle the leaner you get), you would then potentially lose more muscle if you start from being fatter and have to cut longer and more severely.


Great post, anf one I found (to my cost) last year after a 14 week diet, this year with half that, much better.

Glen great article mate, amazed at the condition you get in too considering the lack of drugs. I dont think I could!


----------



## Guest

> Agreed mate, but again what do you cut, carbs? But will that effect your energy levels if you cut carbs at wrong time of day? Will this stop your strength? then knock on to muscle gain?


IMO, yes. Cut carbs.

I think there's too much emphasis put on the amounts of carbs you actually need to train at a good intensity.

But maybe thats cos ive got a lot of Bodyfat to use? lol


----------



## glen danbury

Magic Torch said:


> Great post, anf one I found (to my cost) last year after a 14 week diet, this year with half that, much better.
> 
> Glen great article mate, amazed at the condition you get in too considering the lack of drugs. I dont think I could!


cheers mate - feel damn skinny at the moment though, for me fat loss is the simpler of the two - gaining appreciable (true) muscle is where the hard part is for a natty IMO


----------



## Prodiver

Great article by Glen! :thumb:

The point is, if you're losing flab but getting heavier at the same time, you must be gaining muscle and cannot be in calorie defecit.


----------



## J.E

Razorblade said:


> you probs look like a skinny sack of sh|te


Whatever you say Blaaade. :lol:

Id put money on that, that isnt you in your avvy anyday of the week, why dont you post another pic to prove me wrong ?

:thumbup1:


----------



## Uriel

nice read glen


----------



## Team1

J.E said:


> You can have a life and still stay lean, i get smashed most weekends and still stay sub 15% year round mate.
> 
> Oh and thanks for the negs


You are very welcome to the neg mate. well earned 

I dont consider 14-15% very lean myself for what im into.

Personally..i can have a life and remain 10% with a bit of discipline here and there. Im talking about staying sub 6% say which i couldnt do, have a life and guarantee i was gaining the best i could


----------



## J.E

i stay at around 10 % most of the time also mate

but i said i stay sub 15 % because thats the fattest Ive got too and that was after 2 weeks in napa.

also who stays sub 6% year round ?? very few if any, its just stupid and makes no sense.

And personally im not interested in competing and probably never will be so there would be no logic in going sub 10 % BF .

id rather go out have a good time and smash as many slags as i can, it interests me a hell of a lot more than going through hell for months and then standing on a shiity stage for a few minutes.

But hey, looking at your avvy i doubt you get much attention from the girls, so maybe thats why youd prefer to waste your life competing at a "sport " very few achieve anything special at.

I didnt want to get personal but your coming across as the typical bbing snob who looks down on everyone and i cant stand that.


----------



## Prodiver

No more insulting comments, please lads.

Stick to the thread subject - it's very interesting and valuable information.


----------



## dtlv

Prodiver said:


> No more insulting comments, please lads.
> 
> Stick to the thread subject - it's very interesting and valuable information.


I agree - is an interesting read and the trolling doesn't do anything other than interupt a good thread, and make the poster responsible look stupid.

I've know Team1 for years and one thing he isn't is a "bodybuilding snob"... is a very funny and friendly kind of guy, often modest too and always genuinely helpful.


----------



## Heineken

What a discussion this has turned into, great reading!


----------



## Uriel

J.E said:


> i stay at around 10 % most of the time also mate
> 
> but i said i stay sub 15 % because thats the fattest Ive got too and that was after 2 weeks in napa.
> 
> also who stays sub 6% year round ?? very few if any, its just stupid and makes no sense.
> 
> And personally im not interested in competing and probably never will be so there would be no logic in going sub 10 % BF .
> 
> id rather go out have a good time and smash as many slags as i can, it interests me a hell of a lot more than going through hell for months and then standing on a shiity stage for a few minutes.
> 
> But hey, looking at your avvy i doubt you get much attention from the girls, so maybe thats why youd prefer to waste your life competing at a "sport " very few achieve anything special at.
> 
> I didnt want to get personal but your coming across as the typical bbing snob who looks down on everyone and i cant stand that.


JE, I'm not going to neg you mate but please knock it on the head, you are a young man and you are discussing things with guys with a proven trachk record and great experience, lets learn from them and not p1ss them off the thread


----------



## weeman

tel3563 said:


> *What I'll add is you can deffo lift more when carrying excess weight so it stands that more*
> 
> *
> muscle will be added, whether you keep it or not is a different kettle of banana's though*


This is again different for everyone,i for one start hitting new PB's every single time i diet for a show,and for some reason they happen thicker and faster from about the 4-6 week out mark,so by that point i am super lean and carrying very little excess fat at all.



Prodiver said:


> I get what you're saying, Jamie (good to see you at the Kent last Sunday, btw), but when we're "bulking" we don't actually need to know or worry about our lean bodyweight - *eating, say, 1 gm protein per lb **actual** bodyweight per day will ensure adequate protein intake.*
> 
> This of course means weighing ourselves frequently and upping the protein as we get heavier.
> 
> Thereafter we don't need to count calories - we just need to keep an eye on how porky we are and adjust our carbs a bit.
> 
> This way we can eat just about anything we like and enjoy good food - especially meat and fats - without getting stressed about it.
> 
> Of course, true cutting for a comp requires much closer attention and control, but staying leanish while growing makes cutting much easier.


bit in bold,you forgot to add in your opinion,as has been debated time and time again on this board,the guys that stick to the rul you are stating there will typically gain lean tissue the slowest or stall altogether,certainly seasoned trainers and competitive bbers will almost certainly come to a complete standstill if they abide by that rule thats pretty much for certain.

Apart from that the rest of what you said is basically the way i live my offseason diet,if i fancysomething i eat it,if i am getting fatter i adjust carbs/fats accordingly till i am back to what i would deem acceptable again.



Uriel said:


> yeah - I know how to add muscle...lets hope I can learn *how to hold onto the [email protected] when coming below 12%.I'll be pooing myself*


believe me mate once you get deep into your prep you will CONVINCE yourself you are losing lean tissue regardless of wether you are or arent,it gets a lot worse when you get to points in prep where you must purposelt ride out periods of flatness which just tortures your mind as you cant see how you havent lost muscle,and then you fill up on carbs again for a bit and 'ping' you magically get to see it was all in your head,then repeat whole process,do that for 12-14+ weeks and there in lies the mindfuk!! lol

Like now for instance,i startred DNP run on Sunday,since then i have dropped 6lbs without adjusting anything else drug/diet/med wise in my prep,due to the sheen of water it makes you carry and the unbelievable way it flattens you out you can only imagine the screams of panic going on in my head,no muscles popping,look small flat and smooth,its living hell.

But will be short lived


----------



## Uriel

Heineken said:


> What a discussion this has turned into, great reading!


 :thumbup1: Agreed, looking swuave in you avvy BTW:whistling:


----------



## J.E

im not gonna comment in this thread again lads.

But im sorry for defending myself


----------



## Uriel

weeman said:


> periods of flatness which just tortures your mind as you cant see how you havent lost muscle,and then you fill up on carbs again for a bit and 'ping' you magically get to see it was all in your head,then repeat whole process,do that for 12-14+ weeks and there in lies the mindfuk!! lol
> 
> Like now for instance,i startred DNP run on Sunday,since then i have dropped 6lbs without adjusting anything else drug/diet/med wise in my prep,due to the sheen of water it makes you carry and the unbelievable way it flattens you out you can only imagine the screams of panic going on in my head,no muscles popping,look small flat and smooth,its living hell.
> 
> But will be short lived


That's when I'll be proper sh1tting it, if it messes with your mind with your experience, I will be fuked


----------



## Team1

J.E said:


> i stay at around 10 % most of the time also mate
> 
> but i said i stay sub 15 % because thats the fattest Ive got too and that was after 2 weeks in napa.
> 
> also who stays sub 6% year round ?? very few if any, its just stupid and makes no sense.
> 
> And personally im not interested in competing and probably never will be so there would be no logic in going sub 10 % BF .
> 
> id rather go out have a good time and smash as many slags as i can, it interests me a hell of a lot more than going through hell for months and then standing on a shiity stage for a few minutes.
> 
> But hey, looking at your avvy i doubt you get much attention from the girls, so maybe thats why youd prefer to waste your life competing at a "sport " very few achieve anything special at.
> 
> I didnt want to get personal but your coming across as the typical bbing snob who looks down on everyone and i cant stand that.


Now now you shouldnt be personal but im cool with it. i have been told i have the body of baywatch and the face of crimewatch a few times so im cool with that.

I am not being snobbish about it. i have tried answerign the op froma few perspectives and see where Uriel is coming from and think that from my point of view it makes sense to stay about 10% tops and for most if possible to get lean and stay about there cutting and bulking in short bursts

ANyway. you have had a go at Uriel, Blade and me....lets get your pictures up and lets see if you can back up your big mouth :lol: Untill then your just another fool with a keyboard that does bicep curls and bench press 3x per week :lol:

^light hearted btw...keep it friendly and nice now


----------



## JBWILSON

weeman - just to put your comments into perspective with other things that have been said.

You mention you get better gains when you're in weeks 4-6 of prep and are lean at that stage - is this also week 4-6 of a cycle? If it is do you think the same would apply if you were a natty. This q to any natties wth experience.


----------



## J.E

Team1 said:


> I am not being snobbish about it.
> 
> Untill then your just another fool with a keyboard that does bicep curls and bench press 3x per week


If that isn't snobbery, i dont know what is.

Iv'e already said it but ill say it again, ill post pics when i get a cam mate, im not BIG but im in reasonable shape for my age IMO.

And you dont need muscles to have a working brain pal so if i cant disagree with someone without being 17 stone with 6 % then please let me know.

:beer:


----------



## weeman

J.E said:


> i stay at around 10 % most of the time also mate
> 
> but i said i stay sub 15 % because thats the fattest Ive got too and that was after 2 weeks in napa.
> 
> also who stays sub 6% year round ?? very few if any, its just stupid and makes no sense.
> 
> And personally im not interested in competing and probably never will be so there would be no logic in going sub 10 % BF .
> 
> id rather go out have a good time and smash as many slags as i can, it interests me a hell of a lot more than going through hell for months and then standing on a shiity stage for a few minutes.
> 
> But hey, looking at your avvy i doubt you get much attention from the girls, so maybe thats why youd prefer to waste your life competing at a "sport " very few achieve anything special at.
> 
> I didnt want to get personal but your coming across as the typical bbing snob who looks down on everyone and i cant stand that.


thats bang out of order mate and i would expect a more intelligent comeback from a 12 year old,Rab probably one of the humblest talents i know,i would hardly say he lacks in the female attraction stakes considering he is soon to be married to a very beautiful girl,he has his lifes priorities in order and goals set out he wants to achieve.

You say you would rather spend your time 'smashing slags' (fkn hate it when idiots come out with such a backward and typical statement of macho bullsh1t) yet i wonder who's shoes i would rather be in say in 20 years time,Rab will be able to look back and proudly say 'i achieved that,i did things in my sport that 90% of guys want to do but will never do' whilst sitting secure in his job and with an attractive wife at his side,property and by then no doubt a family of kids.

What are you going to say in 20 years time? baseing my opinion on your posts so far i'd say 'i smashed those slags,loads of them' holds a bit less personal comfort in comparison,i know who's life i would rather have.

I also know who i would most likely want to look like too by that time 

Trying to word all that as diplomatically as possible as your making a fool of yourself towards a guy who is actually trying to further himself and educate others as he goes,snob he is not.

It would also probably crush you to know mate,the life you live (i want to smash loads of slags and look semi decent) i manage to do,whilst also having a beautiful partner,two great kids,a prospering career in bbing and regarded as one of the up coming guys to watch in my chosen sport,i have already achieved things i never thought i would,i live a life you would not believe and could not conceive on the debauchery side,i look fkn incredible by most standards (uhuh yes i do indeed) and i manage to balance it all happily.

Think you've missed the bigger picture somewhere along the way.


----------



## J.E

yeah i did word it terribly but i was just trying to get my point across and i didnt mean to get personal but i just cant stand it when "newbies" are written off in any argument just because they are new.

Sorry for getting personal Team1, i get pished off very easy  as you can see


----------



## J.E

yeah i did word it terribly but i was just trying to get my point across and i didnt mean to get personal but i just cant stand it when "newbies" are written off in any argument just because they are new.

Sorry for getting personal Team1, i get pished off very easy  as you can see


----------



## weeman

Uriel said:


> That's when I'll be proper sh1tting it, if it messes with your mind with your experience, I will be fuked


you will do it mate,i know already your made of the sh1t to get the job done,i dont think your the guy that gives up when things are tough,more likely to dig down deeper and drive on,your a stubborn mofo mate and it serves you well brother:thumbup1:



JBWILSON said:


> weeman - just to put your comments into perspective with other things that have been said.
> 
> You mention you get better gains when you're in weeks 4-6 of prep and are lean at that stage - is this also week 4-6 of a cycle? If it is do you think the same would apply if you were a natty. This q to any natties wth experience.


I ment i get stronger when i am 4-6 weeks away from my show when its typically expected that you get weaker at that point,this also leads me onto my own opinion in this debate.

I put muscle on every time i diet for a show,there is another huge myth that would lead you to believe this isnt supposed to happen but it does,so i guess that throws another tangent on the whole thing,i am not alone in this either,there are plenty guys on here who do the same thing and know plenty in 'real life' who also achieve the same thing.

I stay what most would regard as fairly lean year round,typically drop around 20-25lbs for contest and manage to gain just fine remaining this way as well,yes everyone is different but not to such an extent where it means you must gain a shedload of fat to gain a decent amount of muscle.

|the key i feel to nice consistent gains as mentioned by Rab and i think a cpl others is the routine of gaining a little fat for periods and then dieting for periods throughout the year,at the end of each diet you will have a rebound of sorts and the gains made then will reap you more than just trying to spend a solid year bulking,i see this trend more and more all the time now and i feel its the way forward.


----------



## weeman

J.E said:


> yeah i did word it terribly but i was just trying to get my point across and i didnt mean to get personal but i just cant stand it when "newbies" are written off in any argument just because they are new.
> 
> Sorry for getting personal Team1, i get pished off very easy  as you can see


reps for this as most would just keep on letting things fester away at them and continue posting bitter insults


----------



## Magic Torch

Glad all you pu55ys have made up can you talk about body fat and stuff please 

Bri, 10 pages of adding muscle and leaness etc etc and not ONE horing pic yet.....not amused...


----------



## dtlv

weeman said:


> I put muscle on every time i diet for a show,there is another huge myth that would lead you to believe this isnt supposed to happen but it does,so i guess that throws another tangent on the whole thing,i am not alone in this either,there are plenty guys on here who do the same thing and know plenty in 'real life' who also achieve the same thing.


This is the key thing about putting on muscle in calorie restriction... it's perfectly possible. The thing is though (as I see it) is that you are always more catabolic when calorie restricted so any gains over this period are never going to be as big as when not cutting... and if you aren't bang on with your diet and training those gains can be totally wiped out and you can even lose mass.

Not wishing to turn this into a natty vs non-natty debate, but 'magic supplements' can make a huge difference too in terms of net protein synthesis on a cut.


----------



## weeman

Magic Torch said:


> Glad all you pu55ys have made up can you talk about body fat and stuff please
> 
> Bri, 10 pages of adding muscle and leaness etc etc and not ONE horing pic yet.....not amused...


mate i know,i know,i should really hang my head in shame.

allow me to rectify things:thumb: :lol:


----------



## frowningbudda

There have been some real good/informative threads lately

I feel as if I'm learning something new each time I log in in the

past few weeks.


----------



## Uriel

I'm running out of excuses to give the beer up you clever [email protected]


----------



## Razorblade

J.E said:


> Whatever you say Blaaade. :lol:
> 
> Id put money on that, that isnt you in your avvy anyday of the week, why dont you post another pic to prove me wrong ?
> 
> :thumbup1:


like that?


----------



## PHMG

Razorblade said:


> like that?


And another, im getting a hard on!!!! (all 3 inches of it!)


----------



## Uriel

Razorblade said:


> like that?


ha ha ha.you are bald (this is the only way I feel ok about you being great in every other way you c unt!):laugh:


----------



## J.E

well if that is you and not stolen off some site,i apologise you are fukin crazy big.

Whats your name btw, surely a guy of your size cant fly below the radar and be unknown ?


----------



## dtlv

Uriel said:


> I'm running out of excuses to give the beer up you clever [email protected]


if you want I can fabricate a study on the increased rate of protein synthesis when consuming beer, cake and crisps and cash in a favour with my mate at bristol uni to get it published in a journal :lol:

will cost you a few rep points though


----------



## Uriel

Dtlv74 said:


> if you want I can fabricate a study on the increased rate of protein synthesis when consuming beer, cake and crisps and cash in a favour with my mate at bristol uni to get it published in a journal :lol:
> 
> will cost you a few rep points though


Easy rep for ya! Yes


----------



## Prodiver

Dtlv74 said:


> if you want I can fabricate a study on the increased rate of protein synthesis when consuming beer, cake and crisps and cash in a favour with my mate at bristol uni to get it published in a journal :lol:
> 
> will cost you a few rep points though


And just to stir things a bit with Weeman :wink: , what essential protein intake per day re bodyweight do you find credible, please, Dtlv?

And Dutch Scott might want to wade in here too...

:whistling:


----------



## Heineken




----------



## dtlv

Prodiver said:


> And just to stir things a bit with Weeman :wink: , what essential protein intake per day re bodyweight do you find credible, please, Dtlv?
> 
> And Dutch Scott might want to wade in here too...
> 
> :whistling:


Haha, just for the sake of discussion and maybe starting a nice argument...

Bare minimum figures to achieve health/training goals... good arguments can be made that more is better:

If sedentry: 0.8 g/kg per day

For endurance athletes: 1.6 g/kg per day

For resistance trained athletes: 2.0 g/kg/day

As a side note the higher the contribution of EAAs to those figures by percentage, the greater the likelyhood of increasing muscle protein synthesis since EAAs are the building block proteins required for protein synthesis and NEAAs are mostly only really used in metabolic reactions (and can be made from EAAs anyway).


----------



## weeman

Dtlv74 said:


> Haha, just for the sake of discussion and maybe starting a nice argument...
> 
> *Bare minimum* figures to achieve health/training goals... good arguments can be made that more is better:
> 
> If sedentry: 0.8 g/kg per day
> 
> For endurance athletes: 1.6 g/kg per day
> 
> For resistance trained athletes: 2.0 g/kg/day
> 
> As a side note the higher the contribution of EAAs to those figures by percentage, the greater the likelyhood of increasing muscle protein synthesis since EAAs are the building block proteins required for protein synthesis and NEAAs are mostly only really used in metabolic reactions (and can be made from EAAs anyway).


two words spring out at me there Pat,and also i think i'm right in saying that no actual studies of the like have been done on actual bodybuilders,which makes the above irrelivant to a bodybuilders needs:wink:

come on,getting into the old protein debate is so old now,proof in the pudding on a mass majority scale on this given subject (and 20 years worth of experimentation by myself) is more than enough confirmation for me


----------



## dtlv

weeman said:


> two words spring out at me there Pat,and also *i think i'm right in saying that no actual studies of the like have been done on actual bodybuilders,which makes the above irrelivant to a bodybuilders needs*  :wink:
> 
> come on,getting into the old protein debate is so old now,proof in the pudding on a mass majority scale on this given subject (and 20 years worth of experimentation by myself) is more than enough confirmation for me


Yeah they test what they normally term "strength/power exercise", which typically involves a training routine that no one in the real world ever follows... although, just because the studies haven't been done directly on bodybuilders doesn't mean the figures aren't right... you'd need the studies to scientifically disprove the figures as well as to prove them.

Those figures though are considered BARE MINIMUMS AND NOT OPTIMAL NUMBERS... as bare minimums I have no issue with them at all and consider them good starting points whatever people say... for an optimum figure though the answer will always be different between individuals and almost always higher than those numbers. IMO.


----------



## weeman

Dtlv74 said:


> Yeah they test what they normally term "strength/power exercise", which typically involves a training routine that no one in the real world ever follows... although, just because the studies haven't been done directly on bodybuilders doesn't mean the figures aren't right... you'd need the studies to scientifically disprove the figures as well as to prove them.
> 
> *Those figures though are considered BARE MINIMUMS AND NOT OPTIMAL NUMBERS... as bare minimums I have no issue with them at all and consider them good starting points whatever people say... for an optimum figure though the answer will always be different between individuals and almost always higher than those numbers. IMO.*


yeah i totally agree with that


----------



## glen danbury

i concur that some of my best gains occur when I am mid way through a diet and lost around 4-5kg, I seem to hit a phase where i am just as strong, fitter and so disciplined with the diet that everything comes together

case in point this year - started dieting at 84kg (10kg off where I am sitting now) - once I hit 79kg I was hitting my first seven plate a side rack pulls and was doubling with three plates a side in the bench - something i could not do at 84kg

once my bodyweight drops to 74-75kg then the strength drops off

If only I had the discipline to eat cleaner in the off season as I enjoy mt crap too much in the offseason (not booze as I am nearly tee total obnly having a drink once or twice a year - predominantly just enjoy copius amounts of rich grub)<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" /><o></o>


----------



## Simon m

J.E said:


> i stay at around 10 % most of the time also mate
> 
> but i said i stay sub 15 % because thats the fattest Ive got too and that was after 2 weeks in napa.
> 
> also who stays sub 6% year round ?? very few if any, its just stupid and makes no sense.
> 
> And personally im not interested in competing and probably never will be so there would be no logic in going sub 10 % BF .
> 
> id rather go out have a good time and smash as many slags as i can, it interests me a hell of a lot more than going through hell for months and then standing on a shiity stage for a few minutes.
> 
> *But hey, looking at your avvy i doubt you get much attention from the girls, so maybe thats why youd prefer to waste your life competing at a "sport " very few achieve anything special at.*
> 
> I didnt want to get personal but your coming across as the typical bbing snob who looks down on everyone and i cant stand that.


Woah there fella.

Rab is an ugly jock tosspot, but he's a fellow Pirate and you do not have the right to be that rude to him.

Also, I must warn you that talk like that is considered foreplay and you sure as hell don't want him to smash your back door in whilst he grabs hold of your huge love handles.


----------



## Simon m

PowerHouseMcGru said:


> And another, im getting a hard on!!!! (all 3 inches of it!)


 You'd ruin him mate, I bet he's worried now! :lol:


----------



## Prodiver

Dtlv74 said:


> Yeah they test what they normally term "strength/power exercise", which typically involves a training routine that no one in the real world ever follows... *although, just because the studies haven't been done directly on bodybuilders doesn't mean the figures aren't right... you'd need the studies to scientifically disprove the figures as well as to prove them.*
> 
> Those figures though are considered BARE MINIMUMS AND NOT OPTIMAL NUMBERS... as bare minimums I have no issue with them at all and consider them good starting points whatever people say... for an optimum figure though the answer will always be different between individuals and almost always higher than those numbers. IMO.


So, Dtlv, how much protein are we to advocate?

We know that excess protein will not be wasted, being turned into energy, though it's an expensive source.

But considering the importance of EAAs should we be eating, say, 10 grams of protein per kilo per day?


----------



## dtlv

Prodiver said:


> So, Dtlv, how much protein are we to advocate?
> 
> We know that excess protein will not be wasted, being turned into energy, though it's an expensive source.
> 
> But considering the importance of EAAs should we be eating, say, 10 grams of protein per kilo per day?


I wouldn't advocate a one-size-fits-all figure... I can tell you waht seems to work best for me based on my training style, lifestyle, genetics, other diet, current physical condition etc... but weeman, yourself, Uriel etc may all find that different amounts of protein seem to work best for them.

The only advice I'd feel was responsible for me to give would be to start at the figures I suggested above (which are lifted from the conclusions of the Journal of the International Society of Sports Nutrition - a journal I rate highly) and to work upwards, making observations as you go, and find your own optimum protein levels.... am not wise or smart enough to begin to know the optimum figures for everyone.

Am happy to discuss the different study conclusions and ideas though and explore all sides of any argument.


----------



## RACK

Got nothing to add at all but enjoying this thread muchly!


----------



## Ak_88

Top posting Dtlv :thumbup1:

On the subject of upping protein, how would one determine whether the increase is insufficient, optimal, or excessive? Purely speculative i know, but i do wonder myself if i get enough in.


----------



## hilly

No way to tell really mate.

when maintaining i hit 1.5g per lb of lean body mass. when bulking this gets pushed to 2g and even higher sometimes


----------



## TH0R

Magic Torch said:


> I only know what works for me, I've done 4 shows now and only now do I feel confident in what I am doing re diet. Experience is the only way to learn. * I could never tell anyone else what to do.*


What a refreshing attitude, somebody who's got more experience than most

(with 4 show preps) and not stuffing there ideas down your neck as fact, wish

some others were like this:rolleye:

Nice one Jamie:thumbup1:


----------



## Uriel

tel3563 said:


> What a refreshing attitude, somebody who's got more experience than most
> 
> (with 4 show preps) and not stuffing there ideas down your neck as fact, wish
> 
> some others were like this:rolleye:
> 
> Nice one Jamie:thumbup1:


don't be such an old woman terry - as in any discussion people will give their opinion......

they're not reall going to pre abmle that by saying "Do not have to follow this advice" as it's a given we all have a brain and a way to verify things for our selves.

Jeez lighten up, you on the tren again

maybe we could all log on and stare at the screen for a few days lol


----------



## TH0R

Uriel said:


> don't be such an old woman terry - as in any discussion people will give their opinion......
> 
> they're not reall going to pre abmle that by saying "Do not have to follow this advice" as it's a given we all have a brain and a way to verify things for our selves.
> 
> Jeez lighten up, you on the tren again


 :lol: :lol: :lol:

Is it that obvious


----------



## Uriel

tel3563 said:


> :lol: :lol: :lol:
> 
> Is it that obvious


takes a poacher to catch a poacher:lol:


----------



## Cliff

tel3563 said:


> :lol: :lol: :lol:
> 
> Is it that obvious


I thought you were talking about someone else on this thread... :lol:


----------



## Uriel

Cliff said:


> I thought you were talking about someone else on this thread... :lol:


he was - I can guess who but he's still a naughty roider:laugh:


----------



## Cliff

Uriel said:


> he was - I can guess who but he's still a naughty roider:laugh:


 :thumb:


----------



## glen danbury

tel3563 said:


> What a refreshing attitude, somebody who's got more experience than most
> 
> (with 4 show preps) and not stuffing there ideas down your neck as fact, wish
> 
> some others were like this:rolleye:
> 
> Nice one Jamie:thumbup1:


surely everything is opinion - even those of us who back things with studies are making assumptions based on that evidence and therfore its opinion still (otherwise why would the consensus statement still state 1.7g/kg/d for strength athletes and protein intake when theres tons of anacdotel evidence and studies showing intakes of closer to 2.5-3.5g/kg seem to provide better results?)

the only way to check for YOURSELF (as kcal intake, carb/fat ratio other activities, 'supps' etc etc etc will effect protein utilisation0

would be to ensure you are constant with everything (i.e record and weigh) then bump up intake by a fixed amount maintain meticulously and record the difference in progress


----------



## dtlv

Ak_88 said:


> On the subject of upping protein, how would one determine whether the increase is insufficient, optimal, or excessive? Purely speculative i know, but i do wonder myself if i get enough in.


Be consistent with a set amount for a minimum of a month, then change to something else for a month etc and monitor changes each time.

I had a big experimental phase after first deciding to take training seriously about three years ago... took about five months and played around with several protein intakes and macro splits.

For me the biggest positive change is when going above 2g per kg... below this i definitely don't gain as well as above it. Higher than 3.5g per kg and I find I get appetite supression, and dificulty eating enough total food... a disaster for me as appetite I struggle with at the best of times. 3.5g/kg does lean me out though.

In the end I decided that 2.5-3g protein/kg per day is around my own optimum.... gains are good and appetite is still adequate... and macros roughly 40/30/30 c/p/f (when very active a little higher on the carbs and lower on the fats).

Nowadays I don't just train for bb'ing, I have mixed goals of strength, bb'ig and conditioning, and 2.5-3g protein/kg seems to work well (for me) for all of those training goals.


----------



## Incredible Bulk

i've done the dirty bulk

now trying the lean bulk...no way am i getting fat again!!!

since jumping back on AAS after a 6 month break and keeping the carbs low i have undergone a good body recomposition.

weight is up 12kg but i've lost a sh1t load of fat around the waist and overall.

i'm a good 4-5 weeks away from where i was in january size wise but over the moon with how lean i am.

dramatic jumps in size, look at kai green for instance... require a dramatic jump in something else, food, AAS, slin etc.

One question i've always had, for thosw who are already big...not 19" arm big but top level UK heavyweights like zack khan, daz ball etc.... how did they get this size?

Lean bulking or sh1t bulking?

Now they are at the size surely they can afford to stay leaner and around contest weight as the hard works been done


----------



## J.E

TBH IB, IMO i doubt it made much difference if zak and Daz clean bulked or not they probably would have got to were they are now either way.


----------



## J.E

whats the alarm phase ?


----------



## Dig

Scott, how do you split the 180g protein?? Evenly across meals or have you found it much better to take more in at specific times of the day (eg breakfast/pwo)??

Surprised at how little you consume tbh, not doubting that it works for you mind.


----------



## Smitch

Dtlv, are you some kind of nutrition guru in the real world or do you just really know your sh1t??? :confused1:

I always take the time to read your posts, no matter how long they are. :thumbup1:


----------



## Prodiver

Uriel said:


> ...as in any discussion people will give their opinion......
> 
> they're not reall going to pre abmle that by saying "Do not have to follow this advice" as it's a given we all have a brain and a way to verify things for our selves...





glen danbury said:


> surely everything is opinion - even those of us who back things with studies are making assumptions based on that evidence and therfore its opinion still...
> 
> ...*the only way to check for YOURSELF* (as kcal intake, carb/fat ratio other activities, 'supps' etc etc etc will effect protein utilisation0
> 
> *would be to ensure you are constant with everything* (i.e record and weigh) then bump up intake by a fixed amount *maintain meticulously and record the difference in progress*


Indeed.


----------



## martin brown

Dig said:


> Scott, how do you split the 180g protein?? Evenly across meals or have you found it much better to take more in at specific times of the day (eg breakfast/pwo)??
> 
> Surprised at how little you consume tbh, not doubting that it works for you mind.


Pretty sure there has been research to suggest less frequent meals are better for growth.

I think the fact that there is middle ground has been somewhat overlooked. All is not black OR white. Most is grey.

No-one needs to eat 10,00 kcals a day of burgers to grow - just like trying to stick to a ficticous kcals figure of 2,500 a day is not required.

We are just not that robotic to need x amount of y every x hours/days.

Amounts per week are often far more important than per day. And if anyone knows the exact amount of kcals they burn a day then I'm the pope  Or the amount of protein they need for that matter.

I see nothing wrong with working out what marco split you require for your purpose and stick with it. As energy demands go up eveything should rise in proportion.

M


----------



## dtlv

martin brown said:


> Pretty sure there has been research to suggest less frequent meals are better for growth.
> 
> I think the fact that there is middle ground has been somewhat overlooked. All is not black OR white. Most is grey.
> 
> No-one needs to eat 10,00 kcals a day of burgers to grow - just like trying to stick to a ficticous kcals figure of 2,500 a day is not required.
> 
> We are just not that robotic to need x amount of y every x hours/days.
> 
> Amounts per week are often far more important than per day. And if anyone knows the exact amount of kcals they burn a day then I'm the pope  Or the amount of protein they need for that matter.
> 
> I see nothing wrong with working out what marco split you require for your purpose and stick with it. As energy demands go up eveything should rise in proportion.
> 
> M


Yeah, there was some research to suggest that with mixed macro meals three times per day, feeds were slightly more anabolic than five feeds... can't remember if it was calorie deficit or surplus or if exercise was a factor though.

Going back to something Prodiver was hinting at and I didn't really answer is the essential amino acid content of protein... many studies have demonstrated that while leucine is the main amino acid that signals protein synthesis, it's elevations in plasma EAAs that are required for it to actually happen and that you need all the EAAs to rise at the same time.

This may sound like a small thing, but the implications are huge and show that all proteins are not equal... if post workout you took 50g of non essential amino acids you'd get far far less protein synthesis than from 50g of EAAs... and this applies to meals at rest too.

Fortunately meats, fish and dairy all have the whole spectrum of EAAs, although certain meats (like pork) have a disporportionate amount of one kind (the sulphurus aminos) and low amounts of some of the other EAAs. Whey and casein on the other hand are especially good because they have a very large BCAA/leucine content and the rest of the EAAs in fairly good proportions.

The general point of all this is that if you were to be totally anal and measure EVERYTHING, you may well find that you require less protein than you think you do if the protein you take is all high quality and EAA balanced.

Just an idea.

There is a suggested figure by bodyweight for EAA intake but it's only from one study and I can't remeber it off the top of my head... have posted it here on another thread though so I'll come back after deadlifts and look for it again and post back up here


----------



## dtlv

Smitch said:


> Dtlv, are you some kind of nutrition guru in the real world or do you just really know your sh1t???
> 
> I always take the time to read your posts, no matter how long they are.


lol DEFINITELY not a guru mate - nerd is a better word!... don't you dare take anything I say too seriously!! Use it as a basis for your own research but don't take it as gospel... I've got the wrong end of the stick on things many times and change my view on stuff as I go... in six months I might well disagree with everythign I've written in this thread :lol:

If you are interested in my background though I do do some part time writing for a supplement company, and also have done some freelance stuff for some online contractors... also studied physiology and some biochem, and worked in the field of analysing medical trial data... and next year when I'll be living in the states and married to my lovely girlfriend I hope to do a biosciences type masters (or even a phd) at USC (university of south carolina).

Basically I just love training and the science behind it... the reason i post long sciency posts is because those are the ones I find most useful... if i have a serious question on a forum, i don't feel satisfied with an answer that just says "do this"... i want to know WHY i need to do that and how it works! Thats why i post long winded posts with lots of detail... i know they can be boring sometimes but am just trying to give back the same kind of thing that helps me.

Have learned loads on this forum and love it... there are some great trainers and minds on here, some with really interesting views on things... dammit I sound like a loved up Hackski!!! :lol:


----------



## hilly

Dtlv74 said:


> lol DEFINITELY not a guru mate - nerd is a better word!... don't you dare take anything I say too seriously!! Use it as a basis for your own research but don't take it as gospel... I've got the wrong end of the stick on things many times and change my view on stuff as I go... in six months I might well disagree with everythign I've written in this thread :lol:
> 
> If you are interested in my background though I do do some part time writing for a supplement company, and also have done some freelance stuff for some online contractors... also studied physiology and some biochem, and worked in the field of analysing medical trial data... and next year when I'll be living in the states and married to my lovely girlfriend I hope to do a biosciences type masters (or even a phd) at USC (university of south carolina).
> 
> Basically I just love training and the science behind it... the reason i post long sciency posts is because those are the ones I find most useful... if i have a serious question on a forum, i don't feel satisfied with an answer that just says "do this"... i want to know WHY i need to do that and how it works! Thats why i post long winded posts with lots of detail... i know they can be boring sometimes but am just trying to give back the same kind of thing that helps me.
> 
> Have learned loads on this forum and love it... there are some great trainers and minds on here, some with really interesting views on things... dammit I sound like a loved up Hackski!!! :lol:


i would advise every1 to take this guys advice. He is a very clever bloke just modest is all. I am a little nerdy to but not on his level yet all his advice i have received has been bang on. also he usually provides me with some nice thoughts to go and expand on :thumb:

now im sounding loved up


----------



## Prodiver

Dtlv74 said:


> ... *if i have a serious question* on a forum, i don't feel satisfied with an answer that just says "do this"... *i want to know WHY i need to do that and how it works!*...


 :thumb:


----------



## dtlv

Dtlv74 said:


> There is a suggested figure by bodyweight for EAA intake but it's only from one study and I can't remeber it off the top of my head... have posted it here on another thread though so I'll come back after deadlifts and look for it again and post back up here


I can't find it... but here are two studies that support the importance of EAAs for muscle protein synthesis:

http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/89/1/161

http://cel.isiknowledge.com/InboundService.do?product=CEL&action=retrieve&SrcApp=Highwire&UT=000078362900002&SID=P2AOIfM2DgjhB%40A3k55&Init=Yes&SrcAuth=Highwire&mode=FullRecord&customersID=Highwire

The first study shows some strong results that show 20g EAAs (as found in around 50g whey or 90-100g of protein from red meat... or just 20g of EAA powder) as the maximum amount of protein that gets taken up into muscle after resistance training, with any amount of EAAs above this getting oxidised for energy.

This doesn't necessary mean though that the EAAs above this amount don't have an additional indirect anabolic effect though, as high levels of EAAs in the blood plasma boost IGF1 levels and higher IGF1 leads to a more anabolic state.

There's also the added advantage of increased glucagon with high protein intake which helps fat burning, and of course the thermic effect of protein which helps keep the flab down too.

What I'd really like to know though is if that 20g limit for EAAs still applies if you use slin or AAS... wouldn't be at all surprised if all you dirty roiders (you all know who you are  ) might be able to utilise more protein in one go for new muscle protein synthesis... studies needed badly on this.


----------



## hilly

Id presume from my studies on protein synthesis that both slin and aas would allow more to be utilised mate i think ure pretty bang on their.

studies would be great. If any1 is reading this and contemplating doing a study i will happily take part. fill me full of as much pharma grade as you like


----------



## TH0R

glen danbury said:


> surely everything is opinion - even those of us who back things with studies are making assumptions based on that evidence and therfore its opinion still (otherwise why would the consensus statement still state 1.7g/kg/d for strength athletes and protein intake when theres tons of anacdotel evidence and studies showing intakes of closer to 2.5-3.5g/kg seem to provide better results?)
> 
> the only way to check for YOURSELF (as kcal intake, carb/fat ratio other activities, 'supps' etc etc etc will effect protein utilisation0
> 
> would be to ensure you are constant with everything (i.e record and weigh) then bump up intake by a fixed amount maintain meticulously and record the difference in progress


Totally agree glen:thumbup1: too much "do this", not enough "IMO"

As a more mature :rolleye: bber I have found my carb needs have become less, no idea

why as I still train/work as much as 10 years ago, could it be my carb sensitivity

has increased as I've sort of starved my body of such foods over the last couple of years,or

is it the ageing process??

Doesn't really matter why, just matters that I know to limit carbs more.

Makes me think that maybe my protein needs to rise as well, not any clever

idea behind this, just a gut feeling. I've been on 1.75g per lb for 18 months over 2 years and

have never had an issue with it, I've tried less and felt considerably less muscular

but that could be just my mind playing games (although the mrs agreed with me,

Bitch:cursing :lol:

I also have a reasonably high fats diet, maybe I utilise fats better than carbs??

I'm always trying to find new edges, both in training and diet, but don't feel

I'm suitably educated to pass any greater knowledge on to anyone else as fact.

Will always say I've tried this and it did/didn't work etc.

Have gleamed some really good stuff off this site from the many ppl I consider

suitably experienced to comment on such things

Yes, its all about opinions, but IMO you have to had some results personally

from what your saying, otherwise its just copy and paste conjecture, although

dtlv could be the exception here, as the guy is a fountain on knowledge

and I too love his posts:thumb:

We are indeed, all very different, ranging from body types, ages, height etc.

Just have to find out what works/doesn't work for you :thumbup1:


----------



## kingy_88

some interesting stuff going on here keep it up :thumb:

now i dont really know alot about the 'science' behind eating ant training but one thing i do believe is that nobody is the same so as much as person 1 may have studies stating x,y and z that work for them these may not work for person 2.

the only way to find out is to do a great big dirty bulk and then do a nice lean bulk and see which is best for you then you will have YOUR answer.


----------



## glen danbury

studies, experience - its all good and we all have different needs

the one big thing I notice is being honest with ourselves - I know i have in the past stated i am doing x,y or z but when i look back and doble check i find in fact i wasnt as conssitant as i should have been - whats at fault the system/amounts or the person appyingit conssitantyl

normaly i find the later


----------



## DGS

too true glen, i used to think," oh well its only one day i wont eat gd it wont do me any harm" but they soon add up, so know im being a lot more strict and reaping the benefits.


----------



## Hendrix

When i was in my 20's my metabolism was super fast and seem to stay lean whatever i ate, the up side was that on a decent diet and solid training i could gauge progress on a weekly basis, since over 30 metabolism slowed but seemed a little easier to bang on mass, the scales can be telling me i'm putting on weight, just dosent feel like it, or look like it,

Now i have to learn all about fat loss as i completley ignored in my earlier years as i was ripped all the time.(damn ageing).


----------



## Lois_Lane

Depends on your body type.

But why should you ever get properly fat? That just shows a lack of self control or intelligence to me.


----------



## dtlv

glen danbury said:


> studies, experience - its all good and we all have different needs
> 
> the one big thing I notice is being honest with ourselves - I know i have in the past stated i am doing x,y or z but when i look back and doble check i find in fact i wasnt as conssitant as i should have been - whats at fault the system/amounts or the person appyingit conssitantyl
> 
> normaly i find the later


That's a good point... I used to weigh stuff and count grams of things to the single digit, but this becomes tedious and time consuming and is so hard maintain the motivation to do this for more than a short while... not always necessary to this anyway, especially if the diet you happen to find yourself doing is keeping you to your bodyweight and composition targets.

Personally, when i talk of having x y or z grams of something per day it's what i consider an average... some days will be a bit over, others a little under.


----------



## SK-XO

Lois_Lane said:


> Depends on your body type.
> 
> But why should you ever get properly fat? That just shows a lack of self control or intelligence to me.


X2 if I start getting fat I'll up the cardio or cut carbs as it obviously states that the body isnt using whats getting put in so its just storing it. But in saying that it is hard to sometimes find the sweet spot for you on what you gain nicely on with little amount of fat.


----------



## Lois_Lane

SK-XO said:


> X2 if I start getting fat I'll up the cardio or cut carbs as it obviously states that the body isnt using whats getting put in so its just storing it. But in saying that it is hard to sometimes find the sweet spot for you on what you gain nicely on with little amount of fat.


 Exactly mate. Big difference between not having any real abbs / looking bloated and having rolls of flab hanging from your limbs!


----------



## SK-XO

Lois_Lane said:


> Exactly mate. Big difference between not having any real abbs / looking bloated and having rolls of flab hanging from your limbs!


x2! but i know so many people who just bulk n bulk and go yeah im 18 stone now etc but thats not 18 stone of muscle lol.

I try to get the fine line of what I can gain successfully but it's pretty hard to find that sweet spot, but obviously for say you or other people who are quite pro will know their body very well so have a good idea of whats needed. Where as a lot of people just think eat as much as possible.


----------



## TH0R

SK-XO said:


> x2! but i know so many people who just bulk n bulk and go yeah im 18 stone now etc but thats not 18 stone of muscle lol.
> 
> I try to get the fine line of what I can gain successfully but it's pretty hard to find that sweet spot, but obviously for say you or other people who are quite pro will know their body very well so have a good idea of whats needed. Where as a lot of people just think eat as much as possible.


Good post, used to be one of the former myself, takes some time to realise that

eating carbs, clean or not clean, will put plenty of bf on if there excess carbs that

aren't needed.


----------



## MarkFranco

SK-XO said:


> x2! but i know so many people who just bulk n bulk and go yeah im 18 stone now etc but thats not 18 stone of muscle lol.


We must of met before :lol:


----------



## Tommy10

my metabs through the roof....im a hyper , hyper guy...im lean all year round....drop weight easily....have to work hard at finding a balanced routine as too much= weight loss....ive tried bulking...it stays on me for about a month then falls off....ive grown 17lbs in 10 month but still lean....


----------



## SK-XO

tel3563 said:


> Good post, used to be one of the former myself, takes some time to realise that
> 
> eating carbs, clean or not clean, will put plenty of bf on if there excess carbs that
> 
> aren't needed.





MarkFranco said:


> We must of met before :lol:


Yup exactly and I used to be one of those people as well! like last year I went up to 17 stone 5 or something but was holding fat and A LOT of water. So it's no use! and imo not attractive. I'd rather be nice and cut and build muscle feel better about yourself in the long run and if your doing a show it means less work on dieting!


----------



## Cra16

Lois_Lane said:


> *Depends on your body type.*
> 
> But why should you ever get properly fat? That just shows a lack of self control or intelligence to me.


In bold the correct answer to so many debated questions on here!


----------



## glen danbury

Dtlv74 said:


> That's a good point... I used to weigh stuff and count grams of things to the single digit, but this becomes tedious and time consuming and is so hard maintain the motivation to do this for more than a short while... not always necessary to this anyway, especially if the diet you happen to find yourself doing is keeping you to your bodyweight and composition targets.
> 
> Personally, when i talk of having x y or z grams of something per day it's what i consider an average... some days will be a bit over, others a little under.


would agree - but my point is that whether its weight gain or fat loss I see so many people confused and dissapointed with their progress who state I eat X but they fail to factor in the day of missed meals, the slight increase in portion size over time etc etc and then blame the result on body type etc

more often than not the more you control outside variables the more everyone starts to seem the same - think of how many variables we all differ from during the day - is it body type or actions that then result in the different results people get?

whilst i would not state being 100% anal year round simple things even off season can aid control and ensure smooth progress and avoiding rationalising/compiance pitfulls

a simple tick box for a weekly meal grid - tick if it was a scheduled meal - X if it was missed, different from scheduled etc. then totalling up the week you should be 95% compliant (so if eating six meals a day then over the course of a week you need 42 ticks to be 100% complaint or 40 ticks to be 95% compliant) - if its not at these levels is it body type, the diet or your application of the diet?

I use a scoop system instead of weighing which works well - get a plastic cup weigh out the oats, rice and all dried items you use for your food - - put each one in the cup and then using a marker line off on the cup and label, do this for each item - you then can just fill to the line whatever item and you know you have X amount of a food before cooking - much faster and easier than weighing but nearly as accurate - easy to transport when travelling away etc


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## MarkFranco

SK-XO said:


> Yup exactly and I used to be one of those people as well! like last year I went up to 17 stone 5 or something but was holding fat and A LOT of water. So it's no use! and imo not attractive. I'd rather be nice and cut and build muscle feel better about yourself in the long run and if your doing a show it means less work on dieting!


Im more into weight lifting/strength training than i am bodybuilding and dont think ill ever want to step on stage so im fine holding abit of fat here and there, i could do with dropping about 5-8% BF which i will do one day


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## Prodiver

Anyone who's ever done any controlled trials will tell you just how difficult they are to keep consistent (as Glen said).

Stuff happens, circumstances change during the trial, and dosing and régime errors creep in, all of which need careful processing to exclude or derive meaning.

So, as well-meaning and careful as a bodybuilder may try to be in finding what diets work for him, he personally is just too small a sample to derive any reliable results.

Furthermore, it's important to remember that individuals are far more alike than different. What really works for one bodybuilder is highly likely to work for any other.

Of course in the end everything is just an opinion and it's absurd to keep saying IMO.

Opinions have more or less merit, though - they're not all equal (though the right to hold them is).

When an effect and cause are proposed, it's incumbent on the proposer to suggest a mechanism, and one which accords with the current body of knowledge in the subject.

The whole point of scientific research is to eliminate false hypotheses and arrive at strong proof.


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## dtlv

glen danbury said:


> would agree - but my point is that whether its weight gain or fat loss I see so many people confused and dissapointed with their progress who state I eat X but they fail to factor in the day of missed meals, the slight increase in portion size over time etc etc and then blame the result on body type etc
> 
> more often than not the more you control outside variables the more everyone starts to seem the same - think of how many variables we all differ from during the day - is it body type or actions that then result in the different results people get?
> 
> whilst i would not state being 100% anal year round simple things even off season can aid control and ensure smooth progress and avoiding rationalising/compiance pitfulls
> 
> a simple tick box for a weekly meal grid - tick if it was a scheduled meal - X if it was missed, different from scheduled etc. then totalling up the week you should be 95% compliant (so if eating six meals a day then over the course of a week you need 42 ticks to be 100% complaint or 40 ticks to be 95% compliant) - if its not at these levels is it body type, the diet or your application of the diet?
> 
> I use a scoop system instead of weighing which works well - get a plastic cup weigh out the oats, rice and all dried items you use for your food - - put each one in the cup and then using a marker line off on the cup and label, do this for each item - you then can just fill to the line whatever item and you know you have X amount of a food before cooking - much faster and easier than weighing but nearly as accurate - easy to transport when travelling away etc


That's a very good post mate.... a few good habits for others to copy in the last couple of paragraphs.

While I think there are definite physiological differences between individuals that can effect progress in various areas, and there are definite interactions between environment and genetics that can to a degree result in differing responses between individuals, I also think the concept of the genetic difference is over used and is often blamed for lack of progress when not doing things properly.

I can apply this criticism to myself... I'm definitely ectomorphic, and used to think of myself as a hard gainer with little hope... but then when i got organised and consistent and started trying to be scientific i realised that suddenly I was able to progress at a decent rate. Nothing spectacular but no way bad enough to use the label of hardgainer. My biggest problem has never been my genetics (which are very average and a long way behind mesomorphic perfection), it's always been failure to eat enough consistently or to train regularly enough, and I strongly believe that this is most peoples limiting factor too. It's not what you do on your most organised day that counts, it's want you don't do on your disorganised days and how many of those disorganised days you have that makes the biggest difference.

Also like your idea for measuring scoops... saves a lot of hassle. I kind of do the same but in a less organised way... every time I cook or prepare a specific meal, I always do so in the same pots, pans and containers each time, and since back in the anal days of measuring everything I have an idea of what kcals and macros I'm getting from that meal I know it's always pretty consistent.


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## Team1

So true Det

Consistancy, hard work and tenacity will overcome anything

Re weighing food off season...its pointless for me tbh as i have a rubbish appetite and a fast metabolism so its more a case of eating as much clen grub as i can...i never finish half the meals off season


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## TH0R

I'm a food weigher (I have to keep it secret nowadays)

My take

If I'm not measuring macro's then how do I know whats correct or not as the case may be.

If I'm currently eating 350g P, 250g carbs and 150g fats and I'm not putting muscle or bf on

then I know that I need to increase them macro's, vice versa, if I'm looking a little chub then

I'll reduce carbs and maybe fats.

My lifestyle doens't change much, sleep, work, train, chill, maybe weekends I'll relax a tad

but in general knowing whats going in makes it easier to adjust as necessary IMO

I also try to look at things over a week and not daily.

If I'm eating 7+ meals per day I wouldn't be able to remember what I was having when and

how to cut back or increase, makes perfect sense to me.

Pretty much like keeping a training log, if I didn't note weights and reps I'd have a hazy idea what

progress I was making, and not as clear cut as when keeping a log (I know sometimes workouts

are bad, but measured over a month or two it will show progress)

Just my 2p


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