# SHBG effects and how to reduce it for better gains on and off aas?



## stone14 (Mar 24, 2005)

ive been reading a thread on SHIC cycles and a guy (marcus300) mensioned SHBG effects which i think is interesting:

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marcus300

Basically SHBG is the body's way at maintaining homeostasis, testosterone weather its produced naturally or injected is either held in a "bound" or "free" state. What determines how much "free Test" is floating around our bodies so we can have benefits of building muscle tissue and all the other benefits of Test is SHBG (sex hormone binding globulin).

Studies have shown people with high levels of SHBG find it harder to build muscle than others, this is one of the reason why some bb'ers grow faster and quicker than others and seem to gain on alot on less gear. The more Test what is held in a "bound" state isn't working towards your goal, only the free testosterone is. This is why some who start to inject more test at a huge rate don't make anymore gains than on low dose, SHBG is producing more and holding what your injecting more of in a bound state, kinda pointless exercise.

Wise bodybuilders and top pro's know how to allow more free test be taken up by the cells rather than in a bound state rendering it useless, designing cycles and using compounds what attach to SHBG will allow more free test to flow. Notice how well gains are when you have a long time of gear? this is one of the reason's that a natural way of lowering SHBG.

Bloodwork has been taken on people who have been on test for a number of wks and its clearly shows the build up of SHBG which renders more test useless in a bound state, our own bodies system creating a homeostasis state, if your one of the many guys who class themselves has hard gainers this is one area were you should be looking and i am sure BW would clearly show how much free test is available and how much high levels of SHBG you have.

Certain compounds what attach itself to SHBG and certain natural remedies can help to free up more test.So careful planning of cycles is the key to great gains or better gains than you normally achieve, link all the issues together and create a very anabolic environment and you have cracked it to further muscle gains.

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some studies here:

http://SHBG/printout75.html

http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1365-2265.1993.tb01769.x

http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2000/jan00-cover2.html

http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/90/1/157

http://www.ironmagazine.com/printout75.html

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the main thread from page 4:

http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/steroid-testosterone-information/32543-short-burst-cycling-explained-4.html

the thread from the beggining (if any1 wants to read):

http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/steroid-testosterone-information/32543-short-burst-cycling-explained.html

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*1)so i was just thinking would using prov be a good idea to some1 off aas to free up test from SHBG which finds it hard to gain naturally? assuming training, deit etc etc is sound. *

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(also i no there are some ppl who say prov will shut you down and some say it wont) *

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2)yes this may not be why they are finding it hard to gain natty but would it be werth while doing to see if it benifits them or not? *

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3)does anyone no of any natty remidies for inhibiting SHBG? *

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4)wherther you find it hard or easy to gain, inhinbiting the SHBG will benifit both types am i right? *

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5)does inhibiting estrogen also lower SHBG? *

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6)does inhibiting SHBG cause an increase in SHBG? as the body tries to even hormones out? which would be bad and therefore inhibiting SHBG as a natty bb pointless imo, correct?*

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also found this on proviron used on natty men: taken from this site http://www.sfd.pl/PROVIRON-t165979.html

*Here is the study I was referring to. Only 85 men out of 250 showed any suppression. Proviron did not shut down the HPTA in any of the subjects and that was at 150mg for 1 year. I would say its pretty safe and has very little effect on one's HPTA *

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This study shows no effect on normal LH and FSH with 100-150mg/ d mesterolone, and decrease of FSH/LH that were elevated. *

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*Proviron doesn't substitute Clomid as hpta therapy, but doesn't get in the way, either.

The effect of mesterolone on sperm count, on serum follicle stimulating hormone, luteinizing hormone, plasma testosterone and outcome in idiopathic oligospermic men.

*so would its effects on SHBG be an advantage for a natty bb? yes i prov is an aas med but say if you dont wana be shut down, prov should help gains i think from what ive read, or am i wrong? *

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hears more info on it, its a big article so i will just post the link:

http://www.ironmagazine.com/article75.html

here are some natty SHBG inhibitors it mensions, any1 heard of them?

quote from article.

1) Avena Sativa.

One promising cure to the lack of "wake up wood" is the herb Avena Sativa. Users report a substantial increase in morning erections while using this product. Such a reaction suggests that Avena Sativa may actually reduce Sex Hormone Binding Globulin. Another anecdotal bit of evidence is the fact that some users complain of an outbreak of back acne. This, too, is a sign of an abrupt hormonal change not unlike what occurs during puberty or the beginning of a steroid cycle. The one drawback of Avena Sativa is that many commercial brands lack the active extract and it's the extract that makes it effective. When purchasing Avena Sativa, make sure it lists the percentage of "Avenacosides."

It should be at least 5%. A daily dose of 500-1000 mgs may be just what you need to start the day off with a smile. Also, be aware of the old "bait and switch" tactic. There's one popular internet company that has used the active coside version of avena and naturally customers got good results. Then, they started putting the cheaper "non-coside" herbs into the formula. They even increased the total amount to make it look "new and improved" but of course more of the ineffective herb is meaningless. It's the cosides that count. The company in question even changed labels to "throw you off track." But coside percentages MUST BE STATED on the label. One product that has proven to contain the avenacosides in the correct dosage is "Unleashed" from www.proteinfactory.com

2)

Urtica Dioica.

also known as Stinging Nettles, is an extremely interesting herb. It's not only been shown to reduce SHBG but it also lowers the female hormone prolactin. This is good news to anyone looking to stay lean and avoid the side effects of too much estrogen such as water retention and gynocemastia. Nettles has also been shown as an effective treatment for Benign Prostate Hypertrophy, due in part to the fact that it will suppress DHT (Dyhydrotestosterone). This is both good and bad. Although DHT is often referred to as the "bad" testosterone, it's also anabolic and necessary for libido and erectile function. So it may seem as if the use of Nettles may be working against your goals, but that's only if excessive dosages are used. (Over 500mgs a day)

It is, however, a better choice for the treatment of an enlarged prostate than the more common application of Saw Palmetto which just blocks DHT but provides no benefit in terms of lowering estrogen or SHBG -- both of which are also a factor in prostate health. When testosterone isn't bio-available to the body, it can still impart its negative effects on the prostate. By reducing SHBG, prostate disorders can be avoided while increasing free testosterone and potential muscle growth.

3)

carao.

From the jungles of Costa Rica comes a relatively new discovery -- to the western world at least. For years, the peasants living off the land have been using a unique medicine derived from the fruit of the Cassia Grandis plant.

It's known as Carao and has been an effective natural remedy for anemia. But it also has an interesting side effect in many men. It spurs spontaneous erections! Could this be due to a lowering of SHBG? At this point, it would only be speculative to say. One would think that something that cured anemia would be high in iron but tests on Carao extract reveal almost no iron. This one is a big question mark. There are no official studies on Carao. It could be nothing more than the impoverished people were anemic before taking it and once cured, felt completely revitalized, yet among athletes who have tried it, the consensus is that it definitely improves endurance and sex drive. If you're especially adventurous and are willing to do some investigating in order to track it down, Carao may be just what you're looking for.

There's a saying among the people who live in the small villages of Brazil: Until a man is 60, the child is his... after that, it's Catuaba. No, Catuaba isn't the town gigolo, it's an herb that has been used for centuries as a treatment for infertility. Studies are scant but one instance where Catuaba was administered to 100 men, it turned out that in more than half of them, sperm count increased while the weight of prostate decreased. This is tremendously exciting news to bodybuilders who want the most testosterone they can get without the potentially negative effects on the prostate.

4)

Muira Puama.

is an exotic Amazon herb with rumored sexual enhancing properties that has been holding up to scientific scrutiny. Muira Puama was an ingredient in some of those "Anabolic Activators" from the early 90's which have fallen out of favor. Since the ingredients were based more on folklore than science, it was presumed there was little merit to such substances. Now medical research is bearing out what was just conjecture.

There have been several scientific studies on the effects of Muira Puama and its ability to lower SHBG. It all began when French scientists conducted studies on the effects of the herb on rats. It turns out their rate of copulation doubled! Ensuing tests of humans brought about encouraging reports. More than half of the men tested with Muira Puama report heightened sex drive and the ability to maintain an erection longer. It's been popular among herbalists, but even many medical doctors have begun recommending it for erectile dysfunction and lack of libido. The theory behind its effectiveness is believed to be the release of bound testosterone.

There are many versions of Muira Puama on the market, but as is the case with many herbal products, most of them contain little or no active sapions. When purchasing Muira Puama, make sure it contains the active extract. (Incidentally, "Unleashed" from Protein Factory.com also contains Muira Puama extract).


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## thestudbeast (Jul 20, 2007)

stone14 said:


> ......................................................................................................................................................................
> 
> *1)so i was just thinking would using prov be a good idea to some1 off aas to free up test from SHBG which finds it hard to gain naturally? assuming training, deit etc etc is sound. *
> 
> ...


1. It will be no good for a natural as when you take it your free test will spike, your body will see this and start producing less testosterone to even things out.

2. No benefit

3. Yes the stinging nettle extract works but you need the right linagen. So only a handful of the products out there work. But see point 1.

4. Yes but only whilst on exogenous admistered testosterone (only if you use gear).

5. Yes

6. Yes


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## stone14 (Mar 24, 2005)

> 1. It will be no good for a natural as when you take it your free test will spike, your body will see this and start producing less testosterone to even things out.


i read a study/ article, (i think its in one of those links posted) that increasing natty test with prov will not cause the body to produce less test.

reason is:

your body (natty) produces the right amount of test (total amount) and the amount of free and bond test doesnt effect the total amount of test produced.

ie, say your body prduced 10 test per day, 9 was bond and 1 was free. using either a natty herb sup or med to change the ratio to say 4 bond and 6 free test will not cause the body to produce less test cause the overall total amount stays the same.

prov increases free test and lowers bond test but the total amount stays the same, so the body isnt produceing more test. the SHBG is inhibited from bonding to test makeing more free test.

so realy its the SHBG that is directly effected so natty test will not drop (acording to what have read). and studies say out of 250men a 100mg-150mg ed prv for 12mont only 85 wer negitivly effected in some way and the study came to the conclusion it was safe to use and it was safe to say natty test would be ok with that dose of prov per day.


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

Hmmm seems interesting and actually makes sense...i have always been fascinated about SHBG since i learnt about it a few years ago.

I was just amazed people have not focused more on manipulating it. As you you know SHBG binds to nearly all testosterone in your body along with Albumin leaving only 1-2 % active testosterone for your body to use. So that is like 98%...just imagine being able to free up just 10% of that!

The strange thing is that when i was on my last cycle i got some bloods taken 4 weeks in and my SHBG was 14nmol....it is normally around 33nmol!

I still cannot explain why it was so low as you would expect it to go up if anything! The only thing that i can think of is that i was taking Tbol for the first 4weeks. Now i may be wrong but i am sure i have heard Tbol can lower SHBG (i will need to investigate this) Maybe this is the reason i feel good gains using tbol even thou it is a very mild steroid in comparison?

I have looked into a lot of those supplements...The general censuses on body-building sites was Avena Stevia did not work well in humans becaus eit does not survive the ingestion system where as in many of the studies they were being injected. That was a long time ago so things may have come along since then with reagrds to quality and and other compunds making it more bio-available in the gut.

Muira Puama in my opinion does not have anything to do with SHBG. It's effects meterizle from the fact that it contains a high amount of L-Dopa which is converted into Dopamine in your brain (Same as parkinsons meds) Dopamine is as we know by now (The Fcuk hormone) Dopamine increases physiological sexual stimulation in the brain and also physical stimulation (erections strength and frequency) through the creation of arginine.

There is lots more about Dopamine which i know but i will leave it for another day as i have a minging hangover!


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## stone14 (Mar 24, 2005)

i no prov and winnt inhibite SHBG i didnt no tbol did? it may answer why you SHBG was lower when bloods wer taken tho


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## stone14 (Mar 24, 2005)

cwoody123 said:


> I was just amazed people have not focused more on manipulating it. As you you know SHBG binds to nearly all testosterone in your body along with Albumin leaving only 1-2 % active testosterone for your body to use. So that is like 98%...just imagine being able to free up just 10% of that!
> 
> quote]
> 
> ...


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## thestudbeast (Jul 20, 2007)

stone14 said:


> i read a study/ article, (i think its in one of those links posted) that increasing natty test with prov will not cause the body to produce less test.
> 
> reason is:
> 
> ...


Your reasoning is wrong, you've either misread the study or only read the conclusion as it goes against how the body works. The humun body likes to keep all things equal including free testosterone. So when you lower SHBG and increase free testosterone the body will lower total testosterone levels to equal out free testosterone (it takes about 2 weeks to do this).

You guys are so funny, what you think your the first to come up with this idea lmao.

Yes T-bol does lower SHBG.


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## stone14 (Mar 24, 2005)

thestudbeast said:


> You guys are so funny, what you think your the first to come up with this idea lmao.
> 
> Yes T-bol does lower SHBG.


no dont think am the 1st to come up with it, just looking into it and find it interesting


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## thestudbeast (Jul 20, 2007)

stone14 said:


> no dont think am the 1st to come up with it, just looking into it and find it interesting


ok cool, my bad


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## stone14 (Mar 24, 2005)

this is were i read increasing free test will not have a negitive impact of total test produced:

through the action of reducing SHBG. What's especially encouraging about these findings is the fact that more "Free T" will not cause the negative side effects of increased total testosterone. You'll still have the same amount of natural testosterone, only more of it will be available to impart its positive effects. Among those positive effects are improved mood, heightened libido, reduced risk of heart disease and what may be most intriguing to bodybuilders, the potential for more muscle growth!


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## stone14 (Mar 24, 2005)

> I have looked into a lot of those supplements...The general censuses on body-building sites was Avena Stevia did not work well in humans becaus eit does not survive the ingestion system where as in many of the studies they were being injected. That was a long time ago so things may have come along since then with reagrds to quality and and other compunds making it more bio-available in the gut.
> 
> not have anything to do with SHBG. It's effects meterizle from the fact that


did you find any werth trying?


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## stone14 (Mar 24, 2005)

> Your reasoning is wrong, you've either misread the study or only read the conclusion as it goes against how the body works. The humun body likes to keep all things equal including free testosterone. So when you lower SHBG and increase free testosterone the body will lower total testosterone levels to equal out free testosterone *(it takes about 2 weeks to do this).*


ok so if you were to take a supp/ med to inhibite SHBG and felt an increase in test, this would desapear after 2 weeks


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## thestudbeast (Jul 20, 2007)

stone14 said:


> ok so if you were to take a supp/ med to inhibite SHBG and felt an increase in test, this would desapear after 2 weeks


Yes!

By the way it looks like you got your info from an advert 

activeate extreme is about the best product out there for raising free test or Get diesel's diesel test extreme

http://www.nutraplanet.com/product/designer-supplements/activate-xtreme-120-caps.html

http://www.nutraplanet.com/product/get-diesel/diesel-test-hardcore-120-tabs.html

run either with a low dose AI and you will temporaly get improve muscle gain, nothing too spectacular but results never the less.


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## cwoody123 (Feb 13, 2007)

Wikepedia

SHBG levels appear to be controlled by a delicate balance of enhancing and inhibiting factors. Its level is decreased by high levels of insulin and insulin-like growth factor 1 (IGF-1). Also, high androgen levels decrease SHBG, while high estrogen and thyroxine levels increase it.

However, recent evidence suggests that it is the livers production of fats that reduces SHBG levels,[2][3] not any direct effect of insulin and specific genetic mechanisms have been found that do this.

This say's Androgens decrease SHBG.


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## stone14 (Mar 24, 2005)

> activeate extreme is about the best product out there for raising free test or Get diesel's diesel test extreme
> 
> http://www.nutraplanet.com/product/designer-supplements/activate-xtreme-120-caps.html
> 
> ...


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## thestudbeast (Jul 20, 2007)




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## stone14 (Mar 24, 2005)

.


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## Tall (Aug 14, 2007)

thestudbeast said:


> Your reasoning is wrong, you've either misread the study or only read the conclusion as it goes against how the body works. The humun body likes to keep all things equal including free testosterone. So when you lower SHBG and increase free testosterone the body will lower total testosterone levels to equal out free testosterone (it takes about 2 weeks to do this).
> 
> You guys are so funny, what you think your the first to come up with this idea lmao.
> 
> Yes T-bol does lower SHBG.


Stud - are you stating that as scientific fact, opinion, or conclusion based on past experience?

Also what studies are you referencing when you say nettle root decreases SHBG


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## thestudbeast (Jul 20, 2007)

TH&S said:


> Stud - are you stating that as scientific fact, opinion, or conclusion based on past experience?
> 
> Also what studies are you referencing when you say nettle root decreases SHBG


The first point is hormonal homeostasis, I didn't realize this needed backing up, I'd of thought it's commonly accepted when talking about hormones.

And I mean this in the kindest way, do your own research I do not keep studies on my hard drive, I don't talk total BS either (at least not deliberatly!), still this time 

*Lignans from the roots of Urtica dioica and their metabolites bind to human sex hormone binding globulin (SHBG).*

Schottner M, Gansser D, Spiteller G. Lehrstuhl Organische Chemie I, Universitat Bayreuth, Germany.

Planta Med 1997 Dec;63(6):529-32

Polar extracts of the stinging nettle (Urtica dioica L.) roots contain the ligans (+)-neoolivil, (-)-secoisolariciresinol, dehydrodiconiferyl alcohol, isolariciresinol, pinoresinol, and 3,4-divanillyltetrahydrofuran. These compounds were either isolated from Urtica roots, or obtained semisynthetically. Their affinity to human sex hormone binding globulin (SHBG) was tested in an in vitro assay. In addition, the main intestinal transformation products of plant lignans in humans, enterodiol and enterolactone, together with enterofuran were checked for their activity. All lignans except (-)-pinoresinol developed a binding affinity to SHBG in the in vitro assay. The affinity of (-)-3,4-divanillyltetrahydrofuran was outstandingly high. These findings are discussed with respect to potential beneficial effects of plant lignans on benign prostatic hyperplasia (BPH).

*Interaction of lignans with human sex hormone binding globulin (SHBG).*

Schottner M, Gansser D, Spiteller G. Lehrstuhl Organische Chemie I, Universitat Bayreuth, Germany.

Z Naturforsch [C] 1997 Nov-Dec;52(11-12):834-43

Lignans bind to sex hormone-binding globulin (SHBG). The lignan with the highest binding affinity is (+/-)-3,4-divanillyltetrahydrofuran. In a double Stobbe condensation--without use of protecting groups--a wide variety of lignans with different substitution pattern in the aromatic and aliphatic part of the molecule was synthesized. These lignans were tested in a SHBG-binding assay which allowed to deduce the following relationship between structure and activity: 1) (+/-)-diastereoisomers are more active than meso compounds 2.) the 4-hydroxy-3-methoxy (guajacyl) substitution pattern in the aromatic part is most effective 3.) the activity increases with the decline in polarity of the aliphatic part of the molecule.

*Lignans interfering with 5 alpha-dihydrotestosterone binding to human sex hormone-binding globulin.*

Schottner M, Spiteller G, Gansser D. Lehrstuhl fur organische Chemie, Universitat Bayreuth, Germany.

J Nat Prod 1998 Jan;61(1):119-21

The natural lignans (-)-3,4-divanillyltetrahydrofuran (1), (-)-matairesinol (2), (-)-secoisolariciresinol (3), (+/-)-enterolactone (4), (+/-)-enterodiol (5), and nordihydroguaiaretic acid (NDGA) (6) reduce the binding of 3H-labeled 5 alpha-dihydrotestosterone (DHT) to human sex hormone-binding globulin (SHBG). (-)-3,4-Divanillyltetrahydrofuran (1) has the highest binding affinity (Ka = 3.2 +/- 1.7 x 10(6)M-1) of all lignans investigated so far; the reversibility of its binding and a double reciprocal plot suggest a competitive inhibition of the SHBG-DHT interaction. Increasing hydrophobity in the aliphatic part of the lignans (butane-1,4-diol-butanolide-tetrahydrofuran structures) leads to higher binding affinity. In the aromatic part, a 3-methoxy-4-hydroxy substitution pattern is most effective for binding to SHBG.


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## 7i7 (Sep 22, 2007)

thestudbeast said:


> Your reasoning is wrong, you've either misread the study or only read the conclusion as it goes against how the body works. The humun body likes to keep all things equal including free testosterone.* So when you lower SHBG and increase free testosterone the body will lower total testosterone levels to equal out free testosterone (it takes about 2 weeks to do this).*
> 
> You guys are so funny, what you think your the first to come up with this idea lmao.
> 
> Yes T-bol does lower SHBG.


reference?


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## thestudbeast (Jul 20, 2007)

7i7 said:


> reference?


It seems some people have mistaken a light hearted chat on a BB forum with a dissertation, so for the record just add JMO to all of the above as I can not be ****d to provide studies and references for every thing I say.


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## Tall (Aug 14, 2007)

Stud - I'm aware of what hormonal homeostasis is, but you stated a specific time frame and a specific order of events which I'd never seen referenced, hence my question.

The body will reduce SHBG when T levels are low, and oestrogen levels are high as is commonly found in the obese.

Are you saying the key factor is SHBG rather than T? I would have thought it was the other way around.

Fully aware of doing my own research ta :cool2: but I hadn't been able to find any relevant studies on human males. The studies you posted are 'in vitro', but I'll try and grab a copy of the full study for reading later. :beer:



thestudbeast said:


> The first point is hormonal homeostasis, I didn't realize this needed backing up, I'd of thought it's commonly accepted when talking about hormones.
> 
> And I mean this in the kindest way, do your own research I do not keep studies on my hard drive, I don't talk total BS either (at least not deliberatly!), still this time
> 
> ...


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## thestudbeast (Jul 20, 2007)

TH&S said:


> Are you saying the key factor is SHBG rather than T? I would have thought it was the other way around.


Sorry mate just every time I speak to you on hear it's a where's the study kind of thing 

I thought all the hormones are linked into the negative feed back loop. John Benardi seems to think so and hell even the makers of activate agree that their product will stop working after 4 weeks due to the negative feed back loop (I questioned them on it).

Now if your body did not respond to more bound SHBG don't you think proviron would be really popular? But it's not, why because the body acts quickly on these kind of things. Charles Poliquin frequently states that herbals that effect test will lose all use within two weeks due to..... you guessed it the negative feed back loop.

Now it's my understanding that the body implements this feedback loop by lowering total test to keep the percentage of free test the same. It could also do it by increasing SHBG but I've never even seen this suggested.

Just for the record high protein diets lower SHBG.............. go find a study lol.


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## redman (Feb 2, 2008)

I havent ot time to chime in yet but...

Danazol.


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## Tall (Aug 14, 2007)

thestudbeast said:


> *Sorry mate just every time I speak to you on hear it's a where's the study kind of thing *
> 
> I thought all the hormones are linked into the negative feed back loop. John Benardi seems to think so and hell even the makers of activate agree that their product will stop working after 4 weeks due to the negative feed back loop (I questioned them on it).
> 
> ...


Only when you make a statement I've never seen before dude. Knowledge sharing is good non? It's not some kind of personal slight, it just want to know where you've got your information from so I can read and assimilate it.

My manner will do doubt come across as though I'm calling you a c-unit, when I'm really not. Honest.

Prov is both scheduled and 'expensive'. If you were going to train assisted with Prov, then you might as well train assisted with TBol/Dbol/Test/Var/Oxys etc


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## thestudbeast (Jul 20, 2007)

redman said:


> I havent ot time to chime in yet but...
> 
> Danazol.


Interesting that it lowers rather than binds to SHBG, when you've got time maybe you'll tell us the rest of the story.


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## thestudbeast (Jul 20, 2007)

TH&S said:


> Only when you make a statement I've never seen before dude. Knowledge sharing is good non? It's not some kind of personal slight, it just want to know where you've got your information from so I can read and assimilate it.
> 
> My manner will do doubt come across as though I'm calling you a c-unit, when I'm really not. Honest.
> 
> Prov is both scheduled and 'expensive'. If you were going to train assisted with Prov, then you might as well train assisted with TBol/Dbol/Test/Var/Oxys etc


Ok cool I thought you where just calling me out.


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## Tall (Aug 14, 2007)

thestudbeast said:


> Ok cool I thought you where just calling me out.


Oh no. I'd be even more rude/blunt should that occur :thumb:


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## Tall (Aug 14, 2007)

redman said:


> I havent ot time to chime in yet but...
> 
> Danazol.


Can't find any Human, Male studies on it. Seems to be a ladies only drug. Bump for red for later as I'm off out :thumb:


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## thestudbeast (Jul 20, 2007)

TH&S said:


> Oh no. I'd be even more rude/blunt should that occur :thumb:


lmao


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## 7i7 (Sep 22, 2007)

redman said:


> I havent ot time to chime in yet but...
> 
> Danazol.


 :thumb: love ya!

any experience with it?


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## redman (Feb 2, 2008)

7i7 said:


> :thumb: love ya!
> 
> any experience with it?


Yes I have tried Danazol and found it to be an excellent drug toward the end of a cycle when SHBG is an issue, I find it extends the effective period of a cycle and adds a "kick" when its introduced.

I will go into more detail as soon as I have chance but im seriously busy and off my box on piriton and a whole bunch of hayfeaver meds! :cursing: .

I can hardly see its that bad at the moment.


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

so Proviron helps free test by binding to SHBG all these studies are great but in the real world using proviron on its own to gain muscle does not work...how do i know? because i have tried it at huge doses.

In 2005/6 when i was shut down badly i used proviron at a daily dose of 250mg ed for 8-10 weeks did it give me anything other than wood and an increase sperm count and motility NO......Nothing no strength increase no muscle gains nothing....it did not negativly effect my HPTA as whilst on this dose i recovered from 11months crashed....

Guys the studies are great but in the real world studies like this just do not add up.....you cannot gain muscle on any steroid without negativly effecting the HPTA.....


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## redman (Feb 2, 2008)

Agreed, compounds like danznol and proviron are only of any use on cycle. If you were taking such compounds than your not really natty in the first place


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## wogihao (Jun 15, 2007)

Thats the thing proviron is still a steriod, your just doing a realy crappy cruse. If your going to burst/cruse use a compound that will actualy work on its own (mmmm maby test...).

Dont kid yourself that proviron is just a PCT med - its just the same as dbol/drol just its a steriod that works in a diffrent way. IF your going to come off then do it properly take the hit like a man recover and come back.

But yes, if you take proviron your going to get supression - thats obvious? i dont even know why this is being debated. just because you dont get gains like dbol/drol/winstrol its still afecting your body...

same as the jokers who use pro-hormones/designer steriods between steriod cycles...


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

no mate you are actually wrong proviron does not effect the HPTA as i said in my obavoe post i recovered whilst using 250mg ed for a long time this was recommended to me by my endo as the only steroid not to effect the HPTA either way....but this is not the pooint as proviron is a weak steroid so weak you will get nothing in the way of muscle from it so their is no point what so ever to use it outside a cycle or PCT


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## stone14 (Mar 24, 2005)

Pscarb said:


> so Proviron helps free test by binding to SHBG all these studies are great but in the real world using proviron on its own to gain muscle does not work...how do i know? because i have tried it at huge doses.
> 
> In 2005/6 when i was shut down badly i used proviron at a daily dose of 250mg ed for 8-10 weeks did it give me anything other than wood and an increase sperm count and motility NO......Nothing no strength increase no muscle gains nothing....it did not negativly effect my HPTA as whilst on this dose i recovered from 11months crashed....
> 
> Guys the studies are great but in the real world studies like this just do not add up.....you cannot gain muscle on any steroid without negativly effecting the HPTA.....


so if it doesnt help with gains then would you say things like activaTe extreme and mass fx is also a waste of cash sine they are mainly to inhibite SHBG and if a presctription med doesnt work then an otc supp surly wont work either?


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## thestudbeast (Jul 20, 2007)

stone14 said:


> so if it doesnt help with gains then would you say things like activaTe extreme and mass fx is also a waste of cash sine they are mainly to inhibite SHBG and if a presctription med doesnt work then an otc supp surly wont work either?


They both do more than inhibit SHBG


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

stone14 said:


> so if it doesnt help with gains then would you say things like activaTe extreme and mass fx is also a waste of cash sine they are mainly to inhibite SHBG and if a presctription med doesnt work then an otc supp surly wont work either?


when did i say that?? please point me to the post where i said this

the original question was about just using this for muscle growth through manipulating the SHBG i have first hand experiance with very high doses and i can tell you it does sh1t for muscle growth don't believe me then buy some proviron and take 250mg a day for 2-3 months and all you will be left with is an empty wallet and a good sperm count...


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## stone14 (Mar 24, 2005)

Pscarb said:


> when did i say that?? please point me to the post where i said this





> so Proviron helps free test by binding to SHBG all these studies are great but in the real world using proviron on its own to gain muscle does not work...how do i know? because i have tried it at huge doses.
> 
> *In 2005/6 when i was shut down badly i used proviron at a daily dose of 250mg ed for 8-10 weeks* did it give me anything other than wood and an increase sperm count and motility NO......*Nothing no strength increase no muscle gains nothing*....it did not negativly effect my HPTA as whilst on this dose i recovered from 11months crashed....


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## stone14 (Mar 24, 2005)

Pscarb said:


> when did i say that?? please point me to the post where i said this
> 
> the original question was about just using this for muscle growth through manipulating the SHBG i have first hand experiance with very high doses and i can tell you it does sh1t for muscle growth don't believe me then buy some proviron and take 250mg a day for 2-3 months and all you will be left with is an empty wallet and a good sperm count...


i think you picked up what i said in that post wrong or i didnt word it right, i do believe you


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## aussieboy (Sep 29, 2008)

Pscarb said:


> so Proviron helps free test by binding to SHBG all these studies are great but in the real world using proviron on its own to gain muscle does not work...how do i know? because i have tried it at huge doses.
> 
> In 2005/6 when i was shut down badly i used proviron at a daily dose of 250mg ed for 8-10 weeks did it give me anything other than wood and an increase sperm count and motility NO......Nothing no strength increase no muscle gains nothing....it did not negativly effect my HPTA as whilst on this dose i recovered from 11months crashed....
> 
> Guys the studies are great but in the real world studies like this just do not add up.....you cannot gain muscle on any steroid without negativly effecting the HPTA.....


i am shut down badly as well....i need to get my body back to normal..

what do you think would be a better option, provirion or clomid??????

please help


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## Macro (Jun 9, 2008)

J Sex Med. 2008 Jan;5(1):241-7. Epub 2007 Oct 24.

Low sex hormone-binding globulin and testosterone levels in association with erectile dysfunction among human immunodeficiency virus-infected men receiving testosterone and oxandrolone.

Wasserman P, Segal-Maurer S, Rubin D.

Infectious Disease Division, Department of Medicine--New York Hospital Queens, Flushing, NY, USA. [email protected]

Abstract

INTRODUCTION: Men with acquired immunodeficiency syndrome (AIDS) wasting and hypogonadism are frequently treated with testosterone and oxandrolone, an orally administered anabolic-androgenic steroid hormone. We observed reductions in testosterone and sex hormone-binding globulin (SHBG) levels, in association with complaints of erectile dysfunction, after prolonged exposure to this therapeutic regimen. AIM: First description of an association between long-term receipt of oxandrolone with erectile dysfunction, low SHBG and testosterone. METHODS: Case report of three human immunodeficiency virus-infected hypogonadal male patients receiving treatment for wasting syndrome and hypogonadism, and highly active antiretroviral therapy. All three patients received long-term oxandrolone in addition to testosterone replacement therapy. RESULTS: Testosterone and SHBG levels for patients 1, 2, and 3, respectively: total testosterone 183, 71, and 151 ng/dL (260-1,000 ng/dL); free testosterone (not done for patient 3) 58.3 and 26.9 pg/mL (50-210 pg/mL); SHBG 6, 9, and 6 nmol/L (7-50 nmol/L). No other hormonal abnormalities were detected. Following discontinuation of oxandrolone, levels of total testosterone rose, consistent with increase in SHBG. One patient received repeat SHBG assay documenting rise in SHBG level. Patient 2 reported return of libido and early morning erections several weeks after discontinuation of oxandrolone. CONCLUSIONS: Patients had erectile dysfunction in association with low testosterone and SHBG, in spite of exogenous testosterone replacement. Discontinuation of oxandrolone led to the normalization or improvement of testosterone levels in all three patients with symptomatic improvement in one patient. First pass metabolism of orally administered oxandrolone may decrease hepatic synthesis of SHBG, allowing exogenously supplied testosterone to be excreted. Further work is necessary to elucidate the relationship.


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## MincedMuscle (Aug 6, 2012)

thestudbeast said:


> Your reasoning is wrong, you've either misread the study or only read the conclusion as it goes against how the body works. The humun body likes to keep all things equal including free testosterone. So when you lower SHBG and increase free testosterone the body will lower total testosterone levels to equal out free testosterone (it takes about 2 weeks to do this).
> 
> You guys are so funny, what you think your the first to come up with this idea lmao.
> 
> Yes T-bol does lower SHBG.


Ummm... correct me if I'm wrong, but this can't be true or all attempts to increase natural testosterone levels would be pointless. Maybe not with Proviron, but there are substances that you can increase total natural testosterone levels, as well as free testosterone. DAA would be useless in test boosting if this were true and we all know how well it works. You're body would just stop using DAA to make test with (if it HAD to keep everything balanced as you say). That just doesn't make sense IMO.

LoL ooops, OLD thread :/


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## Ahal84 (Jun 2, 2010)

Nice bump


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## latblaster (Oct 26, 2013)

Good thread, so ta for bumpin' it!


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