# Those poor, innocent, impressionable girls...



## Delhi (Dec 8, 2005)

lol now I KNOW this thread will get heated but let's please keep it under control.

so I want to know how the three girls are being portrayed in the media as innocent and somehow victims of grooming rtf...BUT if three guys went out there they would be portrayed as evil, twisted terrorists?

now if any of those girls come 'home' should we expect them to be arrested and sent to jail for 12 years as what has happened to the same British men who came back.

finally, when do the media shift from calling them innocent to re-label them terrorists like they are?

thoughts?


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## aman_21 (Jul 29, 2013)

Video: Schoolgirls joining Islamic State are not victims. Stop pitying them - Telegraph



> Stop pitying British schoolgirls joining Islamic State - they're not victims


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## Total Rebuild (Sep 9, 2009)

I am really struggling to see why such a fuss is being made about it. Their families decided to come to the UK for a better life. The kids don't like/appreciate it so have f'd off back to the s**hole they came from. Good for them, hope they enjoy it, but the door should be closed against any return. If the families want to reunite with their kids, go see em and don't come back.


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## zyphy (Jun 23, 2014)

If anyone decides to leave to fight for ISIS, discard their passports and don't let them back in. Simples


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## Mclovin147 (Nov 11, 2013)

The reason why all this ISIS crap blew up (Not literally lol) in the first place was because of media coverage. Why is this the top story day in day out?

Three teenagers have left the country to join a terrorists organisation - Ok, so they are on the no fly list, and deemed wanted criminals that will face prosecution if they return. End of story.


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## IGotTekkers (Jun 6, 2012)

Here's a question. Isis are indoctrinating their kids in camps from like 5 years old, at what age do they stop being brainwashed kids and become evil scum?


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## DappaDonDave (Dec 2, 2013)

IGotTekkers said:


> Here's a question. Isis are indoctrinating their kids in camps from like 5 years old, at what age do they stop being brainwashed kids and become evil scum?


For those kids immediately. Equal opportunities for all.


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## EpicSquats (Mar 29, 2014)

Children of Muslim immigrants go to join some terrorist Muslim group and I'm supposed to give a sh1t? Good riddance, don't come back and commit any acts of terrorism in England.


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## EpicSquats (Mar 29, 2014)

IGotTekkers said:



> Here's a question. Isis are indoctrinating their kids in camps from like 5 years old, at what age do they stop being brainwashed kids and become evil scum?


I was brought up Christian but questioned it at the age of 10, then just stopped. Every person has a mind of their own and is responsible for their own behaviour. You can't blame a bad upbringing for being a cvnt as a grownup.


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## zak007 (Nov 12, 2011)

What I don't get is what these girls actually see in going there? I mean all the controversy if they group are genuine or if their just another american/israel backed alqaeda.

What can they get their that they can't get here? Are they going overseas because their young immature and want c0ck so they want to get married asap away from parents? I truly believe this as a possible option :laugh:

Really though, why would you travel to a warn torn country? With the threat of ISIS killing anyone who disobeys them or as it is portrayed in media anyway?


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## Delhi (Dec 8, 2005)

All interesting opinions and I must admit I don't disagree with any of them. My angle is more about how if it's females they are somehow portrayed as victims. While men are seen as evil and instantly labelled a terrorist. Imo the girls are no less guilty than any male who left. What annoys me most though is how our government and specifically David Cameron can stand up and make speeches about how the UK is doing everything in its power to bring these girls back home safely.

Why didn't he stand up for all the UK men and say that?

These girls will be informing potential suicide bombers and terrorists on how best to attack us. They will be telling them all about our shopping malls and way of life, in the hope that more of us could be killed.

Innocent? IMO the UK should be doing everything they can to find them...that part I agree on. It's what I would choose to do if we found them that I differ with.


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## Delhi (Dec 8, 2005)

aman_21 said:


> Video: Schoolgirls joining Islamic State are not victims. Stop pitying them - Telegraph


A brilliant article that and echo's my sentiment exactly. Thanks for posting


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## spod (Mar 25, 2010)

It made me laugh when i heard the parents of the girls blaming the security services for not preventing their daughters from leaving the UK.

Ha! Nothing like parental responsibility then!! :confused1:


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## bail (Mar 19, 2010)

IGotTekkers said:


> Here's a question. Isis are indoctrinating their kids in camps from like 5 years old, at what age do they stop being brainwashed kids and become evil scum?


A Kurdish friend of mine showed me a video

Pershmunga had just defeated Isis in small urban conflict, went around saying in kurshish pulling the masks off, one of which had green eyes and pale skin they then said in the video a lot of these isis their killing a European American etc and are basically paid miltia keep in mind Isis are big Money makers paying 1g a head,

All while sadams old oil fields are being raped.

Imo more to do with money and control rather than religious extremism


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## harrison180 (Aug 6, 2013)

Maybe they wanted a life of being raped everyday and treated like sh1t by the isis soldiers? If the families want them back then go get them they won't be to hard to find. The British government ain't interested in 3 unknown people.

Also why are we filling the prisons up with traitors? They should all be hanged or forced to go back to the life they chose and if it turns out that it's not quite like playing call of duty then they can sit around waiting for the bullet that will end their hurt full terrorist minds.


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## Kazza61 (Jun 14, 2008)

One of the missing girls is called Kadiza Sultana. With a name like that surely they know her currant where abouts....


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## Frandeman (Mar 24, 2014)

3 less to worry about it :gun_bandana:


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## kniterider (Nov 24, 2011)

If they return they should be trialed under sharia law. How would they treat someone who's broken their laws?


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## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

Delhi said:


> All interesting opinions and I must admit I don't disagree with any of them. *My angle is more about how if it's females they are somehow portrayed as victims. While men are seen as evil and instantly labelled a terrorist. Imo the girls are no less guilty than any male who left. *What annoys me most though is how our government and specifically David Cameron can stand up and make speeches about how the UK is doing everything in its power to bring these girls back home safely.
> 
> Why didn't he stand up for all the UK men and say that?
> 
> ...


Its because everyone knows women are dumb.

The reason we have most of the worlds problems is that some men decided that womens opinions mattered.

:innocent:


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## barsnack (Mar 12, 2011)

Delhi said:


> lol now I KNOW this thread will get heated but let's please keep it under control.
> 
> so I want to know how the three girls are being portrayed in the media as innocent and somehow victims of grooming rtf...BUT if three guys went out there they would be portrayed as evil, twisted terrorists?
> 
> ...


Im guessing these girls (going by their religion and poissible upbringing) are likely innocent / victims of grooming, as they already are deemed 3rd class citzens in a Male driven religion....the 3 are likely from very sheltered upbringings, and I may be wrong, but isn't Tower Hamlets one of the few areas that have 'Muslim Patrols', and many extremists come from there....so im guessing, these girls, problay spoke with the ex classmate, who under, direction, told them about this new and free life in Syria, where females have rights blah blah blah....Ironic thing is, these 3 girls would have been told within their communities to not trust british media on how it portrays Muslims....Thing is, these girls want to go to Syria etc to become brides and probably think this alone with give them the equality they don't get at home....where as Males who go to Syrai, are going to fight


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## simonthepieman (Jun 11, 2012)

Delhi said:


> lol now I KNOW this thread will get heated but let's please keep it under control.
> 
> so I want to know how the three girls are being portrayed in the media as innocent and somehow victims of grooming rtf...BUT if three guys went out there they would be portrayed as evil, twisted terrorists?
> 
> ...


I actually agree with you, but considering you normal political views I can't believe you dont have the knick name

The Delhi Mail

Off topic, but it made me laugh


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## IGotTekkers (Jun 6, 2012)

EpicSquats said:


> I was brought up Christian but questioned it at the age of 10, then just stopped. Every person has a mind of their own and is responsible for their own behaviour. You can't blame a bad upbringing for being a cvnt as a grownup.


You can when if you say "sorry dad i don't wanna do this" they cut your head off.


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## IGotTekkers (Jun 6, 2012)

bail said:


> A Kurdish friend of mine showed me a video
> 
> Pershmunga had just defeated Isis in small urban conflict, went around saying in kurshish pulling the masks off, one of which had green eyes and pale skin they then said in the video a lot of these isis their killing a European American etc and are basically paid miltia keep in mind Isis are big Money makers paying 1g a head,
> 
> ...


It is exactly that mate. Isis have as much money and resources as the syran military. It's coming from somewhere. Seem to have mostly American guns and wares too. Funny ain't it.


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## Delhi (Dec 8, 2005)

simonthepieman said:


> I actually agree with you, but considering you normal political views I can't believe you dont have the knick name
> 
> The Delhi Mail
> 
> Off topic, but it made me laugh


Other than stating I am a Tory and anti socialist I am interested to know what my political views are? Please inform me...


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## simonthepieman (Jun 11, 2012)

Delhi said:


> Other than stating I am a Tory and anti socialist I am interested to know what my political views are? Please inform me...


Thats enough for the joke to work you boring blue b'statd


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## Kill Kcal (May 11, 2013)

I blame 50 shades of grey.


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## Delhi (Dec 8, 2005)

simonthepieman said:


> Thats enough for the joke to work you boring blue b'statd


I see your education levels are very poor and need to resort to foul language, based on that I am guessing you don't like my stance on Irish terrorists, yep you got me I don't like anyone who kills innocent people my bad.

I make no apologies for that, you might support terrorists . . . I don't and I am PROUD not to. Only uneducated fools would, people like....well you ????


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## simonthepieman (Jun 11, 2012)

Delhi said:


> I see your education levels are very poor and need to resort to foul language, based on that I am guessing you don't like my stance on Irish terrorists, yep you got me I don't like anyone who kills innocent people my bad.
> 
> I make no apologies for that, you might support terrorists . . . I don't and I am PROUD not to. Only uneducated fools would, people like....well you ????


I abhor all terrorists, including social ones.

BTW, despite starting in the gutter end of the state school system I'm pretty well educated


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## maxie (Jan 31, 2011)

Its a shame we couldnt smuggle that fcukwit adnam choudary out and get that freak blown up as well.No wonder putins sending russian bombers over here he must think we are the biggest pussies in the world for putting up with this shi*!


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## bail (Mar 19, 2010)

MissMartinez said:


> So youre/your friend is saying ISIS are paying a grand a head for killing European or American ?


They are all.paid militias yes,

A grand is just a quite obviously mostly.they will be fighting atm is Kurdish pershmunger. I'm more pointing out its a big money making operation. 1 million daily from captured oil fields let alone how much through various countries sponsership.


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## megatron (Apr 21, 2004)

I was saying this yesterday, who cares FFS. Awful parenting, shrunken brains... Let them cúnt off and get raped 

And NO, not allowed to return.


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## Andy Dee (Jun 1, 2008)

maxie said:


> Its a shame we couldnt smuggle that fcukwit adnam choudary out and get that freak blown up as well.No wonder putins sending russian bombers over here he must think we are the biggest pussies in the world for putting up with this shi*!


. Putins solution to the recent sky high murder rate from robberies and burglaries happening in Russia

1. Give all law abiding citizens the right to have guns in their home

2. Give all law abiding citizens unlimited force to kill any intruder

Bad áss Uk's answer to people breaking into your home.

1. Call the police who never turn up

2. Run and hide.

3. Attack them and get sued

4. Kill them and go to jail

5. agree to be killed by the intruder

And they all wonder why no terrorist has any fear of coming over here and blowing us all up.


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## havering (May 14, 2013)

To be honest we don't want them back, how can you take them back, we would have to monitor them 24/7.

They're not stupid they're 15, grade a girls, so obviously intelligent, they made their choice and their choice was to join one of the terrorist organisations, they've made their bed they can lie in it.

Anyone they has a got at the UK forces, security etc is stupid, how are they meant to prevent this, seriously they meant to be on everything in the whole of the UK 24/7.

It still seems a bit odd to me though how they can managed to get flights, passports, pack and no family member notice or anything, all seems a bit strange.


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## havering (May 14, 2013)

andysutils said:


> Bad áss Uk's answer to people breaking into your home.
> 
> 1. Call the police who never turn up
> 
> ...


Agreed I had this when some little runt was trying to mug me.

Option A - Give them the valuables

Option B - I smash them to bits, get arrested for assault and then get a criminal record, lose my job etc


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## zyphy (Jun 23, 2014)

Kazza61 said:


> One of the missing girls is called Kadiza Sultana. With a name like that surely they know her currant where abouts....


lol good one


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## EpicSquats (Mar 29, 2014)

Kazza61 said:


> One of the missing girls is called Kadiza Sultana. With a name like that surely they know her currant where abouts....


Serves her parents right for raisin sh1tty children.


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## Major Eyeswater (Nov 2, 2013)

A week from now, these girls will be sucking their own sh!t off some ISIS soldier's d!ck and wishing they hadn't been quite so gullible.


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## EpicSquats (Mar 29, 2014)

IGotTekkers said:


> You can when if you say "sorry dad i don't wanna do this" they cut your head off.


That didn't happen with any of the Muslims from the UK who went over to join ISIS though, so fvck em, let them burn.


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## Armitage Shanks (Jul 7, 2014)

They will now be used to encourage more young girls to join their utopia. Probably showing how good life is etc...

This is a trickle, but ISIS wants a flood of punani as baby making machines.


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## EpicSquats (Mar 29, 2014)

Major Eyeswater said:


> A week from now, these girls will be sucking their own sh!t off some ISIS soldier's d!ck and wishing they hadn't been quite so willing to *murder non-muslims*.


Here, fixed it for you mate.


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## ImmortalTech (Feb 19, 2015)

I see a lot of hate towards ISIS.

The media is such a powerful thing, and evidently works. I bet the same people hating ISIS now are the same people ****ting themselves over ebola a few weeks back.


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## DaveCW (Dec 9, 2013)

IGotTekkers said:


> Here's a question. Isis are indoctrinating their kids in camps from like 5 years old, at what age do they stop being brainwashed kids and become evil scum?


They day they pull the trigger and enjoy it.. Al-hamdu lillah


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## megatron (Apr 21, 2004)

ImmortalTech said:


> I see a lot of hate towards ISIS.
> 
> The media is such a powerful thing, and evidently works. I bet the same people hating ISIS now are the same people ****ting themselves over ebola a few weeks back.


nah you're right, burning people to death is cool...


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## barsnack (Mar 12, 2011)

ImmortalTech said:


> I see a lot of hate towards ISIS.
> 
> The media is such a powerful thing, and evidently works. I bet the same people hating ISIS now are the same people ****ting themselves over ebola a few weeks back.


If Carlsberg did 'head scratching' comments


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## ImmortalTech (Feb 19, 2015)

barsnack said:


> If Carlsberg did 'head scratching' comments


I'll make it easy for you. You're being fed bullsh!t on the television.


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## barsnack (Mar 12, 2011)

ImmortalTech said:


> I'll make it easy for you. You're being fed bullsh!t on the television.


in most cases i would agree....but in ISIS case, think there not even reporting some of the most horrific things I've seen on the Web of executions, massacres etc....and that's only the stuff they record


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## xelad (Apr 4, 2014)

ImmortalTech said:


> I'll make it easy for you. You're being fed bullsh!t on the television.


Yes ok fair enough in 99% of cases, but this is slightly different tbh.


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## ImmortalTech (Feb 19, 2015)

barsnack said:


> in most cases i would agree....but in ISIS case, think there not even reporting some of the most horrific things I've seen on the Web of executions, massacres etc....and that's only the stuff they record





xelad said:


> Yes ok fair enough in 99% of cases, but this is slightly different tbh.


Think about it. Question everything. You found out this information from the same source you JUST told me you agree is feeding you bullsh!t.


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## megatron (Apr 21, 2004)

ImmortalTech said:


> Think about it. Question everything. You found out this information from the same source you JUST told me you agree is feeding you bullsh!t.


Jesus....

The media didn't record videos of these monsters sawing peopels heads off or burning dues to death, nor did the media publish said videos.

Just because the media is riddles with bias and lies doesn't mean EVERYTHING is a lie :/

Use your brain


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## xelad (Apr 4, 2014)

ImmortalTech said:


> Think about it. Question everything. You found out this information from the same source you JUST told me you agree is feeding you bullsh!t.


I completely understand what you are getting at mate, but there is no excuse to treat people how they are, regardless of the history and motives behind it all.


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## TheScam (Apr 30, 2013)

ImmortalTech said:


> Think about it. Question everything. You found out this information from the same source you JUST told me you agree is feeding you bullsh!t.


Question everything? I bet you are one of those people that still think Elvis is alive and 9/11 was an inside job right?

As someone else said, surely these girls cant come back now. How could they be trusted not to be feeding information back?

Only reason I can see them being treated differently is the age, they aren't considered adults in this country - if they were over 18 I'd be expecting them to be treated the same as any man that goes out there.


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## ImmortalTech (Feb 19, 2015)

megatron said:


> Jesus....
> 
> The media didn't record videos of these monsters sawing peopels heads off or burning dues to death, nor did the media publish said videos.
> 
> ...


I believe those videos are propaganda mate, very strong propaganda used to instill more hate towards the middle east.


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## Ian_Montrose (Nov 13, 2007)

It's hard to believe these girls have the faintest idea just how bad a world of sh!t they are walking into. The same has to be said in my opinion for any teenage boy going off to fight in this sh!thole war for an inherently evil ideology that has no redeeming features. They are sad, deluded fools and I feel sorry for them and their families.

Looking more deeply, I feel there is a touch of reaping what you sow. You cannot enforce extremely conservative social standards on young people living in a progressive and liberal society without the risk of them flipping out. You cannot brainwash your children to believe in the unquestionable authority of a god or prophet and then act all surprised when someone else takes advantage of that blind faith for nefarious purposes.


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## xelad (Apr 4, 2014)

ImmortalTech said:


> I believe those videos are propaganda mate, very strong propaganda used to instill more hate towards the middle east.


There is no shadow of a doubt that our media are using these videos and stories to achieve this, however it still does not take away the fact that these people are ACTUALLY doing these terrible things.


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## ImmortalTech (Feb 19, 2015)

Scammell29 said:


> Question everything? I bet you are one of those people that still think Elvis is alive and 9/11 was an inside job right?


No I'm pretty sure Elvis is dead lol (who the fk thinks he is still alive? isn't that Tupac you're on about?). But yep, I believe 9/11 was an 'inside job'.

Do enough reading and you'l find things don't add up. Even the way in which those buildings fell was the EXACT same in which controlled demolition of buildings come down using explosives, not the impact of a plane.

Building 7 wasn't struck with a plane and yet fell down miraculously. No media coverage.

I like my red bars now lol. I guess someone thought I like to disturb the peace when in reality I like to disturb the war.


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## the wee man (Dec 17, 2014)

IGotTekkers said:


> It is exactly that mate. Isis have as much money and resources as the syran military. It's coming from somewhere. Seem to have mostly American guns and wares too. Funny ain't it.


ISIS' half-a-billion-dollar bank heist makes it world's richest terror group

The al-Qaeda splinter grouping made off with £256 million in cash and a large amount of gold bullion from Mosul's central bank during its takeover of the city

the feckers have plenty cash mate,the above was one of the first things they did for funds

the 3 girls should be treated the same as males and get sentenced accordingly

i'm sick of this sh1t..

a few years ago my youngest son brought a note home from primary school,it said he could no longer give class mates cards saying merry xmas,and that seasons greetings would be suitable,as the other may offend Muslims...

for fecks sake i live in a Scottish ex mining village,why the feck can my kid not say merry xmas to his pals

cheers shaun


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## a.notherguy (Nov 17, 2008)

ImmortalTech said:


> Think about it. Question everything. You found out this information from the same source you JUST told me you agree is feeding you bullsh!t.


what is the reliable source of imformation that you use? the internet? a guy in the pub? david icke?


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## ImmortalTech (Feb 19, 2015)

xelad said:


> There is no shadow of a doubt that our media are using these videos and stories to achieve this, however it still does not take away the fact that these people are ACTUALLY doing these terrible things.


It's sick isn't it. What goes on in them videos. I'm not so sure the accused are the perpetrators.


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## Wasp (Nov 1, 2009)

ImmortalTech said:


> It's sick isn't it. What goes on in them videos. I'm not so sure the accused are the perpetrators.


You're fcuking mental.


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## TheScam (Apr 30, 2013)

ImmortalTech said:


> No I'm pretty sure Elvis is dead lol (who the fk thinks he is still alive? isn't that Tupac you're on about?). But yep, I believe 9/11 was an 'inside job'.
> 
> Do enough reading and you'l find things don't add up. Even the way in which those buildings fell was the EXACT same in which controlled demolition of buildings come down using explosives, not the impact of a plane.
> 
> ...


Ah red bars nothing to do with me I'm afraid.

The elvis thing was a bit tongue in cheek - just going along the conspiracy theory point.

I have done a lot of reading and was originally unsure about 9/11 but for every conspiracy theory there seems to be a counter argument to explain it.

Anyway, thats off topic. I think the ISIS situation is very different to Ebola. Maybe the scaremongering is what you are comparing? But you seemed to suggest ISIS arent a terrorist group and arent commiting horrible acts of violence?


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## ImmortalTech (Feb 19, 2015)

a.notherguy said:


> what is the reliable source of imformation that you use? the internet? a guy in the pub? david icke?


I prefer a message in a bottle.


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## a.notherguy (Nov 17, 2008)

ImmortalTech said:


> I prefer a message in a bottle.


its the best way to keep up with current affairs :thumbup1:


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## ImmortalTech (Feb 19, 2015)

Scammell29 said:


> Anyway, thats off topic. I think the ISIS situation is very different to Ebola. Maybe the scaremongering is what you are comparing? But you seemed to suggest ISIS arent a terrorist group and arent commiting horrible acts of violence?


I'm suggesting ISIS aren't who the media are telling you who they are. Who funds them. What their goals actually are.


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## Jammy Dodger (Nov 2, 2014)

Just to confirm. In this country we lock up criminals at 15. After the age of 10 you are able to be held criminally responsible for your actions...

At 16 you can join the British Armed forces... (admittedly you can't do everything, but you can start practising).

They are not babies. They have made a decision. How many millions will we spend "helping" them, compared to the support given to young girls raped and abused in Bradford? How much will we spend on their PTSD if they come back, compared to supporting a British soldier?

They are breaking the law. They are suspected criminals. They should be labelled as such.


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## the wee man (Dec 17, 2014)

ImmortalTech said:


> Who funds them.


ISIS' half-a-billion-dollar bank heist makes it world's richest terror group

The al-Qaeda splinter grouping made off with £256 million in cash and a large amount of gold bullion from Mosul's central bank during its takeover of the city

cheers shaun


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## Smitch (Dec 29, 2008)

Even if they're not terrorists, they will be mixing with, marrying and helping terrorists which means that they must be breaking some UK laws anyway surely?

Hopefully they'll get killed out there so we won't have to worry about having them back.


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## IGotTekkers (Jun 6, 2012)

the wee man said:


> ISIS' half-a-billion-dollar bank heist makes it world's richest terror group
> 
> The al-Qaeda splinter grouping made off with £256 million in cash and a large amount of gold bullion from Mosul's central bank during its takeover of the city
> 
> ...


But thats the schools wishes, not the Muslim parents. I'm sure they wouldn't give a ****.


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## ImmortalTech (Feb 19, 2015)

the wee man said:


> ISIS' half-a-billion-dollar bank heist makes it world's richest terror group
> 
> The al-Qaeda splinter grouping made off with £256 million in cash and a large amount of gold bullion from Mosul's central bank during its takeover of the city
> 
> cheers shaun


TBH I'm not certain, but I do think ISIS are U.S. funded.

No one can take and use half a billion dollars. Not even close. Those bills are easily identified, and if it's digital theft then that would leave a nice paper trail.

The propaganda gets more army recruits. "Defend your country! Protect your freedom!" who's attacking America? Isn't it America doing all the ****ing invasions. People are daft beyond belief. The U.S. has been at 'war' the passed 222 years, out of 239.


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## Jammy Dodger (Nov 2, 2014)

ImmortalTech said:


> TBH I'm not certain, but I do think ISIS are U.S. funded.
> 
> No one can take and use half a billion dollars. Not even close. Those bills are easily identified, and if it's digital theft then that would leave a nice paper trail.
> 
> The propaganda gets more army recruits. "Defend your country! Protect your freedom!" who's attacking America? Isn't it America doing all the ****ing invasions. People are daft beyond belief. The U.S. has been at 'war' the passed 222 years, out of 239.


Right - if you are going to post stuff like that you really really need to do some research.

IS funding comes from a number of sources. Including but not limited to: The sale of oil from captured wells on the black market, looting of artefacts in places they have taken, capturing hostages and ransoms, taxing the locals, protection money. There is also strong evidence that they receive state funding from a few dodgy hot countries.

Now the US and possibly the UK DID in all likelyhood support and help out groups that are now linked to IS when their aim was too get rid of Assad. But those days are long long gone. It's widely felt that this attempt at political meddling was a huge mistake. Let us not forget that it was the UK, the US and some friends who stopped Assad using his planes. We were meddling in a civil war trying to get rid of someone we don't like. Our aim was never to fund an organisation to bolster recruitment numbers lol...

What's more you need to look at military recruitment in the US. Like the UK it's heavily focussed on getting young and poor people to join. In return they get a chance to receive an education and make a life for themselves. They don't need to spend Billions funding a foreign organisation to do keep numbers high - they simply have to use the money to advertise more on the TV. What's more - the US armed forces is vastly over manned. The high numbers are a way of getting people into work... So your assertions are ludicrous to say the least.


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## the wee man (Dec 17, 2014)

ImmortalTech said:


> TBH I'm not certain, but I do think ISIS are U.S. funded.
> 
> No one can take and use half a billion dollars. Not even close. Those bills are easily identified, and if it's digital theft then that would leave a nice paper trail.
> 
> The propaganda gets more army recruits. "Defend your country! Protect your freedom!" who's attacking America? Isn't it America doing all the ****ing invasions. People are daft beyond belief. The U.S. has been at 'war' the passed 222 years, out of 239.


do a bit of research mate

With this week's capture of Mosul, the al-Qaeda splinter grouping is believed to have come into undreamed of new wealth after making off with 500 billion dinars - £256 million - from the northern Iraqi city's central bank.

The radical group is also said to have made off with a large amount of gold bullion from the bank, which was left unguarded in the chaos accompanying the militants' takeover of the city, which is one of Iraq's main oil centres.

Atheel al-Nujaifi, the governor of Nineveh province, said ISIS members had also seized many more millions from banks across the region

it was Dinars and Gold not trackable American Dollars

cheers shaun


----------



## the wee man (Dec 17, 2014)

IGotTekkers said:


> But thats the schools wishes, not the Muslim parents. I'm sure they wouldn't give a ****.


considering there is not one Muslim in our village or at the school mate

it's political correctness gone fcuking nuts, imo

cheers shaun


----------



## ImmortalTech (Feb 19, 2015)

sammym said:


> Right - if you are going to post stuff like that you really really need to do some research.





the wee man said:


> cheers shaun


That's why I stated before posting "TBH I'm not certain, but I do think..."

The whole issue at hand is atrocious but questionable in some areas, that's all I'm saying. I never take anything face value or because someone else said it.


----------



## megatron (Apr 21, 2004)

ImmortalTech said:


> TBH I'm not certain, but I do think ISIS are U.S. funded.
> 
> No one can take and use half a billion dollars. Not even close. Those bills are easily identified, and if it's digital theft then that would leave a nice paper trail.
> 
> The propaganda gets more army recruits. "Defend your country! Protect your freedom!" who's attacking America? Isn't it America doing all the ****ing invasions. People are daft beyond belief. The U.S. has been at 'war' the passed 222 years, out of 239.


You don't even know that Saudi funds ISIS but you feel empowered to lecture everyone on what we should know?

It's not even a secret


----------



## ImmortalTech (Feb 19, 2015)

megatron said:


> You don't even know that Saudi funds ISIS but you feel empowered to lecture everyone on what we should know?
> 
> It's not even a secret


Mate, first of all thanks for the red bars :lol:

Unless you're actually part of the group no one will know for sure who funds them, so you don't even know who funds them, either. At least I said I wasn't certain yet you seem pretty sure of yourself.

I haven't lectured anyone. All I've done is throw a bit of wood on the fire. Sparking up areas of interest, which has clearly worked, and I am sorry you feel so hostile.


----------



## Sionnach (Apr 19, 2010)

Total Rebuild said:


> I am really struggling to see why such a fuss is being made about it. Their families decided to come to the UK for a better life. The kids don't like/appreciate it so have f'd off back to the s**hole they came from. Good for them, hope they enjoy it, but the door should be closed against any return. If the families want to reunite with their kids, go see em and don't come back.


my favourite post on this site. ever!


----------



## AncientOldBloke (Dec 11, 2014)

zyphy said:


> If anyone decides to leave to fight for ISIS, discard their passports and don't let them back in. Simples


I tried ISIS once.

Gave me back acne and PIP.

Switched to ROHM.

:stupid:


----------



## Tomahawk (Dec 24, 2014)

zak007 said:


> What I don't get is what these girls actually see in going there? I mean all the controversy if they group are genuine or if their just another american/israel backed alqaeda.
> 
> What can they get their that they can't get here? Are they going overseas because their young immature and want c0ck so they want to get married asap away from parents? I truly believe this as a possible option :laugh:
> 
> Really though, why would you travel to a warn torn country? With the threat of ISIS killing anyone who disobeys them or as it is portrayed in media anyway?


You really want to know? I'll try to explain it. (I used to be muslim before I grew up and learned to think.)

It's actually frighteningly logical. It requires 2 things:

1. A strong belief in Islam and its teachings

2. A strong belief that ISIS is correct (This mostly follows from point 1.)

If you manage to have the appropriate lapses in judgement to fulfill those 2 requirements, the rest follows logically from the teachings of Islam:

* This life is a short test, the real life is the eternal life that begins after you die in this world. (The Quran states that after you die and get judged, you will perceive this life as "just a day" and will wish you worked harder during that time.)

* After this life, you are judged, and all of your deeds are weighed. At this point, based on your "test result" you get placed in heaven/hell.

* Heaven/hell is not a binary concept as it seems to be in most Christian beliefs. In Islam, there are different levels of heaven/hell. (Heaven is described as having 7 levels in some accounts, but hundreds in others..)

* The better your deeds, the higher you score and the higher level of heaven you enter. (This is where the "virgins" concept comes from; you get more p*ssy in the higher levels.) So logically you want to work as hard as you can, as you have eternal life afterward and you only have a limited amount of time to score points.

* Jihad gets you a lot of points, this is mentioned many times in the teachings.

* The highest possible score is achieved via martyrdom; sacrificing your life for Allah, or for Islam.

* If you want to get this "full score" and get everything possible in the eternal life that follows, you would sign up for any decent Jihads that you can get into, and hope for the chance to die. (This, incidentally, is the reason muslim Jihadists tend to be so suicidal when there are often ways of achieving their goals without killing themselves.)

* People with ****ty lives tend to be more susceptible to the above beliefs; they believe it because they want it to be true.

The Islamic Iranian government persuaded thousands of school-age boys to run over minefields during the Iran/Iraq war using these arguments. In one day 40,000 young people died to clear a pathway to a city that was under siege by the Iraqis.

As for killing, from an Islamic terrorist's viewpoint, killing is not ending a life, it is just ending "the test". Some apologists for that attack on the Pakistani school a few weeks ago have stated that "we don't see it as killing children, we are freeing them from this world where they would have likely become sinners under their parents ill teachings and giving them a chance to get to heaven while they are still innocent, and therefore we have done them a great favour".


----------



## andyebs (Aug 14, 2013)

the UK this week have been caught dropping food and guns to isis and iraq army shot the 2 plans down and are demanding to know what the UK are doing

not in the mainstream news though even though its 2 british plans and prob lose of pilots lifes

i think theres a lot more going on

and what i understand of islam is that isis do not represent them

i think they represent the money they get to keep stiring **** so we can fool normal tax paers to fund wars and money spent on wars instead of our nhs and education all so we can send normal people from this country to kill poor people in other countrys so rich people from all countrys can do there thing and get richer


----------



## Harry Axe Wound (Jul 1, 2013)

The Power of Nightmares 1: The Rise of the Politics of Fear (BBC-2004) - Video Dailymotion

This three part series goes some way in explaining, funding, ideology etc etc.

Watch "Bitter Lake" too, those inclined


----------



## Harry Axe Wound (Jul 1, 2013)

AncientOldBloke said:


> I tried ISIS once.
> 
> Gave me back acne.
> 
> ...


High five!


----------



## megatron (Apr 21, 2004)

ImmortalTech said:


> Mate, first of all thanks for the red bars :lol:
> 
> Unless you're actually part of the group no one will know for sure who funds them, so you don't even know who funds them, either. At least I said I wasn't certain yet you seem pretty sure of yourself.
> 
> I haven't lectured anyone. All I've done is throw a bit of wood on the fire. Sparking up areas of interest, which has clearly worked, and I am sorry you feel so hostile.


David Cameron urged to press Emir of Qatar on terror funds - Telegraph

Cameron asked him to stop, prince said no, Cameron said OK...

Not much point citing a news source though as they are all lies, we should just make up whatever scenario we want and roll with that...

I'm sure the king of Jordan thought it was all some big conspiracy by the US when he launched his entire air force in retaliation for the burning of a pilot.

Very little critical thinking has been done by you on this topic, it's offensive and patronising that you started your comments on this thread with:

"I see a lot of hate towards ISIS.

The media is such a powerful thing, and evidently works. I bet the same people hating ISIS now are the same people ****ting themselves over ebola a few weeks back.

So yeah enjoy your red bars champ


----------



## AncientOldBloke (Dec 11, 2014)

andyebs said:


> the UK this week have been caught dropping food and guns to isis and iraq army shot the 2 plans down and are demanding to know what the UK are doing
> 
> not in the mainstream news though even though its 2 british plans and prob lose of pilots lifes
> 
> ...


All wars are about that.

Nuffin to do with religion.

But hell, my gas tank cost less to fill up than it did 8 weeks ago.

I'm almost sad to report I've lost my humanity and sense of moral outrage now.

I no longer give a sh*t if a politician or a mullah or a pope says something is morally repugnant.

I got my own brain.


----------



## ImmortalTech (Feb 19, 2015)

megatron said:


> Very little critical thinking has been done by you on this topic, it's offensive and patronising that you started your comments on this thread with:
> 
> "I see a lot of hate towards ISIS.
> 
> ...


That was a summary of how the media is working on people that I have gathered through witnessing topics at hand, in what way is this offensive and patronising to you?

A little over sensitive? :confused1:

I will enjoy them. Obviously not ideal, being a fairly new account here on UKM, but I honestly burst out laughing when I noticed you actually bothered as a veteran poster to give 'bad reputation' for some opinions a newbie made on gen con.

It's really quite sad. No skin off my back though.

Peas,

IT


----------



## AncientOldBloke (Dec 11, 2014)

And as for those "Those poor, innocent, impressionable girls..."

Fvck em. Who cares?


----------



## 2004mark (Oct 26, 2013)

I don't care. But I reckon if I knew more about them and realised how innocent they probably are (were lol) then I would.

Don't remember the details, but saw a captured lad who went out equipped to be a suicide bomber on TV the other day in somewhere like Iraq. He was 17. If I'd read it on a piece of paper and you just think let him rot. See him interviewed though and you can see how he was just a child and would have been just as much of a victim as the other kids, women and men he would have blown up if he'd not got caught. They were just using an impressionable kid to do their dirty work.

Kids are easily led, look how girls lose all senses at a pop concert and are delirious when their favourite band break up. Wouldn't take much of a physiologist to figure out how to harness those emotions.


----------



## Armitage Shanks (Jul 7, 2014)

@Harry Axe Wound

I tried to watch bitter lake today but it seems not to be on youtube in its whole. BBC iplayer dont work where I currently am!

Is there anywhere else to watch it?


----------



## armor king (Sep 29, 2013)

Delhi said:


> lol now I KNOW this thread will get heated but let's please keep it under control.
> 
> so I want to know how the three girls are being portrayed in the media as innocent and somehow victims of grooming rtf...BUT if three guys went out there they would be portrayed as evil, twisted terrorists?
> 
> ...


I have no idea what you are talking about. What girls? Who's coming back home?


----------



## megatron (Apr 21, 2004)

armor king said:


> I have no idea what you are talking about. What girls? Who's coming back home?


Why comment then if you don't even watch the news or keep up with current affairs?


----------



## armor king (Sep 29, 2013)

megatron said:


> Why comment then if you don't even watch the news or keep up with current affairs?


For fun lol


----------



## xelad (Apr 4, 2014)

Simple things..


----------



## AncientOldBloke (Dec 11, 2014)

2004mark said:


> Kids are easily led, look how girls lose all senses at a pop concert and are delirious when their favourite band break up. Wouldn't take much of a physiologist to figure out how to harness those emotions.


In 1984 I was gonna sign up to go kill me some Argentinians in the Falklands.

Cos the news and the bloke down the pub and Maggie said they are bad and evil and they will come over here to shag my mum and my sister.

Then I grew up.

31 years later, who gives a f8ck about somebody else's cause...

Pre-dark ages, the Vikings.

For the next thousand years, the French.

70 years ago, the Germans.

Then the Irish Catholics.

Now the Muslims.

Tomorrow, someone else will be along and we can hate them too.


----------



## Archaic (Mar 8, 2010)

How did they even fly out, don't you need some sort of adult supervision up until checkout to fly if are under 16yr??


----------



## EpicSquats (Mar 29, 2014)

Do I think a certain section of Muslims are cvnts who want to force their religion on others? Yes.

Do I think ISIS are being funded very wealthy people somewhere else in the world for their own agenda? Yes.

Do I think the British armed forces should keep their noses out of the Middle East at all times? Yes.

Do I think British people should stop automatically hating people they're told to hate by the media? Yes.

By now, so many British people have noticed the lies the media and government tell that they just don't believe what they're told anymore, which is a good thing. It's all like a sideshow now.


----------



## TheScam (Apr 30, 2013)

Tomahawk said:


> You really want to know? I'll try to explain it. (I used to be muslim before I grew up and learned to think.)
> 
> It's actually frighteningly logical. It requires 2 things:
> 
> ...


Sounds like a video game!

I cant believe people are allowed to teach these theories... no disrespect intended, I'm not a massive fan of any religion.


----------



## Armitage Shanks (Jul 7, 2014)

AncientOldBloke said:


> In 1984 I was gonna sign up to go kill me some Argentinians in the Falklands.
> 
> Cos the news and the bloke down the pub and Maggie said they are bad and evil and they will come over here to shag my mum and my sister.
> 
> ...


1982!


----------



## Harry Axe Wound (Jul 1, 2013)

Armitage Shanks said:


> @Harry Axe Wound
> 
> I tried to watch bitter lake today but it seems not to be on youtube in its whole. BBC iplayer dont work where I currently am!
> 
> Is there anywhere else to watch it?


Try this mate,

[urls to free streaming of commercial videos is against the rules and will result in an inflation if done again]


----------



## AncientOldBloke (Dec 11, 2014)

82, 84

when your 300 yrs old you cant remember!


----------



## Ian_Montrose (Nov 13, 2007)

Armitage Shanks said:


> 1982!


 Maybe he didn't want to go out until any chance of the Argies shooting back at him had been mitigated.


----------



## TheScam (Apr 30, 2013)

andyebs said:


> the UK this week have been caught dropping food and guns to isis and iraq army shot the 2 plans down and are demanding to know what the UK are doing
> 
> not in the mainstream news though even though its 2 british plans and prob lose of pilots lifes
> 
> ...


Is it not being reported in the mainstream because its a huge cover up, or because its being reported by conspiracy theorists?


----------



## Harry Axe Wound (Jul 1, 2013)

Extremeist ideologies are always present in society. Its societies' opinion on equality and justice that dictate whether extremism becomes popular or not.

Have a fair society, extremism is diminished. We live in very unjust times. London riots happened for the same reason. Same reason UKIP exists. Anger is everywhere, and as social animals we gravitate to the outlet that most closely resembles our origins, as that empowers them as human beings. Thats nature.

Muslim girl disenfranchised with life? Fly to Turkey.

White working class lad disenfranchised with life? Join UKIP or EDL or whatever the ****.


----------



## 2004mark (Oct 26, 2013)

Harry Axe Wound said:


> Extremeist ideologies are always present in society. Its societies' opinion on equality and justice that dictate whether extremism becomes popular or not.
> 
> Have a fair society, extremism is diminished. We live in very unjust times. London riots happened for the same reason. Same reason UKIP exists. Anger is everywhere, and as social animals we gravitate to the outlet that most closely resembles our origins, as that empowers them as human beings. Thats nature.
> 
> ...


All part of the balance of society, you need one to have the other.

I know no one want's to be blow up or have their head chopped off, but it's not really going to happen to anyone of us. People need to just chill out a bit and stop getting so worked up (or dare I say frightened) about things like isis imo. Far more likely to get all blown up from a nuke from Russia.


----------



## GCMAX (Dec 31, 2013)

The absolutely CRAZY thing is, these girls are wanting to join a paramilitary force that have been trained by the CIA, armed by the West, sent from Saudi Arabia, an ally of the West in order to kill innocent Muslims, kick starting a revolution and deposing a legitimate government so that the West can put in a pawn for oil and regional control in our never ending attack on the Middle East.

IE: They are aiding and abetting their sworn enemies! Unreal!! Any Muslim who wants to join these groups has been brainwashed by state sponsored Zionist controlled media. Think twice.


----------



## Harry Axe Wound (Jul 1, 2013)

2004mark said:


> All part of the balance of society, you need one to have the other.
> 
> I know no one want's to be blow up or have their head chopped off, but it's not really going to happen to anyone of us. People need to just chill out a bit and stop getting so worked up (or dare I say frightened) about things like isis imo. Far more likely to get all blown up from a nuke from Russia.


What we do need to be worried about though is more of our liberties being taken from us in the name of National Security


----------



## EpicSquats (Mar 29, 2014)

It's annoying how our media is spoonfeeding us bullsh1t and insulting our intelligence thinking we'll believe it. Anyone with more than half a brain knows we're being set up for more bullsh1t war in the middle east. It's so obvious it's boring now.


----------



## the wee man (Dec 17, 2014)

Harry Axe Wound said:


> What we do need to be worried about though is more of our liberties being taken from us in the name of National Security


sh1t like this mate.....

The BBC is using anti-terror spy laws to trap licence fee dodgers in Northern Ireland, the Belfast Telegraph can reveal

It has invoked the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act (RIPA) to catch viewers evading the £145 charge.

The Act, which regulates the powers of public bodies to carry out surveillance and investigation, was introduced in 2000 to safeguard national security.

But a series of extensions mean it can now be applied to investigate minor offences, including not paying the licence fee.

The BBC confirmed its use of RIPA in Northern Ireland after enquiries from this newspaper.

However, the publicly-funded broadcaster refused to give details of what way and how often it applied the legislation.

Last year, police signed off on more than 450,000 requests, and the intelligence services more than 50,000, to get communications data but the parliamentary committee slated "lamentably poor" record-keeping, with just 12 staff employed to scrutinise the requests.

cheers shaun


----------



## GCMAX (Dec 31, 2013)

EpicSquats said:


> It's annoying how our media is spoonfeeding us bullsh1t and insulting our intelligence thinking we'll believe it. Anyone with more than half a brain knows we're being set up for more bullsh1t war in the middle east. It's so obvious it's boring now.


We are slowly becoming wise to the real reason behind all this and who is to blame yet if we reveal this to others on a public forum and cause any type of impact we are not only denounced, we are arrested and jailed. We need a global revolution to counter the one which is already in place.


----------



## AncientOldBloke (Dec 11, 2014)

Ian_Montrose said:


> Maybe he didn't want to go out until any chance of the Argies shooting back at him had been mitigated.


Ever noticed in 1950's b&w afternoon matinee films how 'di blic filla' always get shot first by the Boers?

So I thought I'd avoid that by doing a 2-year cruise.


----------



## Harry Axe Wound (Jul 1, 2013)

the wee man said:


> sh1t like this mate.....
> 
> The BBC is using anti-terror spy laws to trap licence fee dodgers in Northern Ireland, the Belfast Telegraph can reveal
> 
> ...


Mental


----------



## Tomahawk (Dec 24, 2014)

Scammell29 said:


> Sounds like a video game!
> 
> I cant believe people are allowed to teach these theories... no disrespect intended, I'm not a massive fan of any religion.


All religious theories are ridiculous when viewed from the outside. This is the ironically funny thing about religious people. Christians think muslims are ridiculous because they follow a 6th century pedophile, muslims think Christians are ridiculous because they believe God somehow managed to mate with a human female and produce a son, the list goes on. Both sides believe that some guy built a boat large enough to fit all the animals of the world. The fact is, all religious theories are inherently ridiculous. They only work because they are all designed in such a way as to indoctrinate children at a very young age when they are very impressionable.

We all think Santa is a cool and fun concept, but really if you look at it objectively, it's a bizarre story about a fat man that lives in the north pole, drives a flying sled pulled by magical reindeer, breaks into everybody's house in the world in one night, and delivers presents made by an army of slave midgets. If you told that story to an adult he would tell you to get the **** out..

At its core, religion is a social construct that is spread from parent to child like a disease. It afflicts the weak-minded, the poor, the uneducated, those who are desperate for a dream of a better future and an answer to what happens when you die; hence why you tend to see it more in impoverished societies.

Islam is particularly harmful because it adds a few extra bits that make it psychologically worse than the average "recreational" religion:

1. Islam forbids doubting the existence of Allah. Even asking questions is frowned upon, and children are urged not to even consider other possibilities, as it is sinful to go down that path. In that sense it actively traps its followers inside. If a child was slapped every time he asked his father "But who made God?" eventually his mind will learn not to go down the path of thinking in that way. (This is the basis for Cognitive Behaviour Therapy.)

2. It's not really possible to be a casual Muslim. Something like Christianity you can do as a hobby, you just wear a cross when you fancy, show up for church every once in a while, etc. But in Islam, it's very black and white. You either pray 5 times a day or you go to hell. So naturally, Islam is an extremist religion.

I say this with a heavy heart, as my parents and most of my family are muslims, but Islam truly is a cancer of the world and needs to be resolved.


----------



## AncientOldBloke (Dec 11, 2014)

GCMAX said:


> We are slowly becoming wise to the real reason behind all this and who is to blame yet if we reveal this to others on a public forum and cause any type of impact we are not only denounced, we are arrested and jailed. We need a global revolution to counter the one which is already in place.


Yeah yeah yeah.

Guy Fawkes was fighting against government tyranny, oppression, lies and falsehoods.

Look how he ended up.

These things are no longer priorities.

I couldn't give a stuff anymore.

While I'm alive, I just wanna:

* stay in some great hotels

* fvck some great women

* eat in the best restaurants

* wear the best clothes

* create and enjoy decent relationships

THAT, my friend is MY religion.


----------



## Ian_Montrose (Nov 13, 2007)

Harry Axe Wound said:


> What we do need to be worried about though is more of our liberties being taken from us in the name of National Security


Bingo!

Countless examples, but look at the recent proposal to issue all police officers with tasers, justified apparently due to the increased terrorist threat. I don't ever see a Mumbai-style attack being thwarted by a couple of fat WPCs with stun guns personally. Though the recent statistics that revealed tasers had been drawn on over 400 children would no doubt increase significantly.


----------



## GCMAX (Dec 31, 2013)

AncientOldBloke said:


> Yeah yeah yeah.
> 
> Guy Fawkes was fighting against government tyranny, oppression, lies and falsehoods.
> 
> ...


Well that's your right of course but what if you have kids, what kind of life do you think they would have if the system continues this way?


----------



## DaveCW (Dec 9, 2013)

Harry Axe Wound said:


> What we do need to be worried about though is more of our liberties being taken from us in the name of National Security


Alex is that you ?


----------



## Harry Axe Wound (Jul 1, 2013)

DaveCW said:


> Alex is that you ?


Yawn


----------



## DaveCW (Dec 9, 2013)

AncientOldBloke said:


> Yeah yeah yeah.
> 
> Guy Fawkes was fighting against government tyranny, oppression, lies and falsehoods.
> 
> ...


Exactly what they want you to do.

They want you to not give a stuff when they tighten the noose round your neck, they want you to continue to.

* stay in some great hotels

* fvck some great women

* eat in the best restaurants

* wear the best clothes

* create and enjoy decent relationships

They want you to read the drivel they put out, they want you to listen to the music and buy the must have things that they all profit off.

Nobody gives a FK when they gas a city in Syria because they are standing in line at the Apple store drinking a starbucks coffee and eating a McMuffin while waiting to get their hands on the new Iphone.

It's all so predictable and blatantly obvious what's going on but i've given up trying to point it out, these days i pump myself full of test, eat chicken and lift sh1t.


----------



## DaveCW (Dec 9, 2013)

Harry Axe Wound said:


> Yawn


Really ? given your statement i would have thought that a compliment but ok very well then.


----------



## AncientOldBloke (Dec 11, 2014)

My kids are adults.

They have chosen their paths.

They have tunred out more gregarious, altruistic and socially conscious than me, despite my best efforts to "corrupt" them with my somewhat Pickwickian manner.


----------



## Harry Axe Wound (Jul 1, 2013)

DaveCW said:


> Really ? given your statement i would have thought that a compliment but ok very well then.


The guy is a hysterical moron


----------



## welshman (May 22, 2008)

2004mark said:


> All part of the balance of society, you need one to have the other.
> 
> I know no one want's to be blow up or have their head chopped off, but it's not really going to happen to anyone of us. People need to just chill out a bit and stop getting so worked up (or dare I say frightened) about things like isis imo. Far more likely to get all blown up from a nuke from Russia.


It happened.......... In London.............Less than 2 years ago. (Lee Rigby).

Or the London bombings in 2005.


----------



## AncientOldBloke (Dec 11, 2014)

DaveCW said:


> Exactly what they want you to do.
> 
> They want you to not give a stuff when they tighten the noose round your neck, they want you to continue to.
> 
> ...


----------



## 2004mark (Oct 26, 2013)

welshman said:


> It happened.......... In London.............Less than 2 years ago.


To one person... you think it's likely to happen to you or a loved one?


----------



## DaveCW (Dec 9, 2013)

Harry Axe Wound said:


> The guy is a hysterical moron


Yes in the way he delivers his message i absolutely agree but at the end of the day he is delivering the same message, just not in a way that is to everyone's taste.

I can live without a lot of his banter but he does say a lot of the right things.


----------



## DaveCW (Dec 9, 2013)

Yeah but i meant a lot of it is owned by the very bast1ds we shouldn't be supporting.


----------



## welshman (May 22, 2008)

2004mark said:


> To one person... you think it's likely to happen to you or a loved one?


I'd be amazed if something on a larger scale didn't happen in the UK in the next 3 to 5 years.


----------



## Harry Axe Wound (Jul 1, 2013)

DaveCW said:


> Yes in the way he delivers his message i absolutely agree but at the end of the day he is delivering the same message, just not in a way that is to everyone's taste.
> 
> I can live without a lot of his banter but he does say a lot of the right things.


Only on some occasions. Unfortunately his method and other crazy stuff taints that.

Unfortunately people are very black and white. The reality is much more grey.

I believe the USA is untruthful in its account of 9/11. But do i think though that there were controlled demolitions? Definately not. Who in their right mind would think that the unprecedented attack of flying planes in to buildings wasnt enough of a catalyst for action against extremists, and that just to make absolutely sure people would be on board, they had to, at great risk of exposing a government conspiracy, rig the buildings with explosives??


----------



## dann19900 (Dec 29, 2012)

Harry Axe Wound said:


> What we do need to be worried about though is more of our liberties being taken from us in the name of National Security


lol google will have all your details unless your browser has safe browsing turned off


----------



## Harry Axe Wound (Jul 1, 2013)

dann19900 said:


> lol google will have all your details unless your browser has safe browsing turned off


Your mum's out of a job

'Sexist' UK Porn Law Change Bans List Of Sex Acts Including Female Ejaculation, Spanking And Strangulation


----------



## DaveCW (Dec 9, 2013)

Harry Axe Wound said:


> Only on some occasions. Unfortunately his method and other crazy stuff taints that.
> 
> Unfortunately people are very black and white. The reality is much more grey.
> 
> I believe the USA is untruthful in its account of 9/11. But do i think though that there were controlled demolitions? Definately not. Who in their right mind would think that the unprecedented attack of flying planes in to buildings wasnt enough of a catalyst for action against extremists, and that just to make absolutely sure people would be on board, they had to, at great risk of exposing a government conspiracy, rig the buildings with explosives??


I want to hear more about Bengahzi.

As for 9/11 a lot does not make sense.


----------



## 2004mark (Oct 26, 2013)

welshman said:


> I'd be amazed if something on a larger scale didn't happen in the UK in the next 3 to 5 years.


Don't dispute that... but I reckon there's more chance of me dying on the roads in the next week than from terrorism and I don't watch the news worrying about car crashes.


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## Pointer21 (Feb 21, 2015)

Delhi said:


> lol now I KNOW this thread will get heated but let's please keep it under control.
> 
> so I want to know how the three girls are being portrayed in the media as innocent and somehow victims of grooming rtf...BUT if three guys went out there they would be portrayed as evil, twisted terrorists?
> 
> ...


It is not illegal to move to the middle east to become a muslim bride. Marrying a terrorist even is not illegal. Why care so much? Do you do much research on ISIL or the beginnings of Wahhabism? I never get the rants people go on, specifically about subjects they don't know much about.

You look like a healthy in shape dude with I imagine, very happy life, why do you care about some religious girls going to marry Muslims in an Islamic state? How does it affect you? Who gives a **** really? And why? Because it is in the papers?


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## Harry Axe Wound (Jul 1, 2013)

DaveCW said:


> I want to hear more about Bengahzi.
> 
> As for 9/11 a lot does not make sense.


Me too. Unfortunately asking these questions often means you are associated with nut jobs


----------



## Andy Dee (Jun 1, 2008)

Harry Axe Wound said:


> What we do need to be worried about though is more of our liberties being taken from us in the name of National Security


Like the government working its way to banning all firearms from private ownership?........... to prevent terrorism?


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## Pointer21 (Feb 21, 2015)

Harry Axe Wound said:


> Me too. Unfortunately asking these questions often means you are associated with nut jobs


Because the theories about alternative 9/11 narratives are so easily debunked by science when it comes about the alleged inconsistencies about the structural damage itself, or the plot to blow them up by alternative party's (ie non Islamic terrorists) that you have to be somewhat gullible or mentally pliable to believe them.


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## Harry Axe Wound (Jul 1, 2013)

andysutils said:


> Like the government working its way to banning all firearms from private ownership?........... to prevent terrorism?


Indeed. You cant have double standards in society like that. Like Capital Punishment, "You killed someone, which is wrong, so we will kill you"

Im all for restricted, proper regulation of guns and their owners. But to ban all guns whilst arming the Police more and selling arms to countries with horrific civil rights abuses is retarded


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## The-Real-Deal (Dec 5, 2014)

Pointer21 said:


> It is not illegal to move to the middle east to become a muslim bride. Marrying a terrorist even is not illegal. Why care so much? Do you do much research on ISIL or the beginnings of Wahhabism? I never get the rants people go on, specifically about subjects they don't know much about.
> 
> You look like a healthy in shape dude with I imagine, very happy life, why do you care about some religious girls going to marry Muslims in an Islamic state? How does it affect you? Who gives a **** really? And why? Because it is in the papers?


What are these papers you speak of?


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## Harry Axe Wound (Jul 1, 2013)

Pointer21 said:


> Because the theories about alternative 9/11 narratives are so easily debunked by science when it comes about the alleged inconsistencies about the structural damage itself, or the plot to blow them up by alternative party's (ie non Islamic terrorists) that you have to be somewhat gullible or mentally pliable to believe them.


I think you need to read my earlier comments to read the one you quoted to gauge its context


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## Boshlop (Apr 1, 2012)

what rewards could the women possible want since alot of its based on rewards in the afterlife? i understand the extreme muslim blokes believing in the 40 virgins in heaven but for a woman thats just gonna be nout but disappointment up there


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## EpicSquats (Mar 29, 2014)

Boshlop said:


> what rewards could the women possible want since alot of its based on rewards in the afterlife? i understand the extreme muslim blokes believing in the 40 virgins in heaven but for a woman thats just gonna be nout but disappointment up there


40 husbands to beat her, Muslim wife heaven.


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## Archaic (Mar 8, 2010)

Pointer21 said:


> It is not illegal to move to the middle east to become a muslim bride. Marrying a terrorist even is not illegal. Why care so much? Do you do much research on ISIL or the beginnings of Wahhabism? I never get the rants people go on, specifically about subjects they don't know much about.
> 
> You look like a healthy in shape dude with I imagine, very happy life, why do you care about some religious girls going to marry Muslims in an Islamic state? How does it affect you? Who gives a **** really? And why? Because it is in the papers?


These are kids, not women. It is illegal for them to have sex, let alone marry.

Why you defending terrorist pedophiles for?


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## Delhi (Dec 8, 2005)

Pointer21 said:


> It is not illegal to move to the middle east to become a muslim bride. Marrying a terrorist even is not illegal. Why care so much? Do you do much research on ISIL or the beginnings of Wahhabism? I never get the rants people go on, specifically about subjects they don't know much about.
> 
> You look like a healthy in shape dude with I imagine, very happy life, why do you care about some religious girls going to marry Muslims in an Islamic state? How does it affect you? Who gives a **** really? And why? Because it is in the papers?


LOL if you READ my posts you will see I am not interested in young females joining ISIS or anything else terrorist related, my main gripe is how our media portray females as innocent and victims while pointing accursary fingers at males who go to the very same place. To make a remark about people not knowing what they are talking about was silly. If you read my posts you would have seen that.

And I care because it is on my TV every night and simply ignoring problems in the world does not make them go away. I like current affairs and find the topic interesting, some people dont I respect that but please respect that I do care.


----------



## Andy Dee (Jun 1, 2008)

Harry Axe Wound said:


> Indeed. You cant have double standards in society like that. Like Capital Punishment, "You killed someone, which is wrong, so we will kill you"
> 
> Im all for restricted, proper regulation of guns and their owners. But to ban all guns whilst arming the Police more and selling arms to countries with horrific civil rights abuses is retarded


I Agree and completely agree with having strict gun licensing policy. Never ever would i ever want a system like the US to be implemented in the uk. But the fact they are always picking on licensed owners and continue to let drug dealing criminals run round the streets with what ever gun they want deserves a prison sentence by itself.

If thats not a violation of freedom and liberty. I dont know wtf is. What you've described is also an act of treason.


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## GCMAX (Dec 31, 2013)

Boshlop said:


> what rewards could the women possible want since alot of its based on rewards in the afterlife? i understand the extreme muslim blokes believing in the 40 virgins in heaven but for a woman thats just gonna be nout but disappointment up there


Maybe the women get 40 cocks?


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## 2004mark (Oct 26, 2013)

Archaic said:


> These are kids, not women. It is illegal for them to have sex, let alone marry.
> 
> Why you defending terrorist pedophiles for?


Where has he defended anyone lol


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## Boshlop (Apr 1, 2012)

GCMAX said:


> Maybe the women get 40 cocks?


thats my point, imagine 40 virgin blokes up there as a a reward...


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## Delhi (Dec 8, 2005)

TommyBananas said:


> there is your problem, watching TV.


LOL well yes that's true, but it sure does beat listening to the radio


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## Archaic (Mar 8, 2010)

2004mark said:


> Where has he defended anyone lol


Now you are defending the defender of terrorist paedophiles. :nono:


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## 2004mark (Oct 26, 2013)

Archaic said:


> Now you are defending the defender of terrorist paedophiles. :nono:


If you so so dude :lol:


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## freddee (Mar 2, 2009)

I havnt read all the posts but if not already mentioned what annoys me is that the authorities are taking all the flack while the families are getting all the sympathy, the onus of reasonability to me is with the family, after their friend disappeared why were young girls allowed to have internet access to extremists, why were they at that age in possession of their passports and why did they have the money to go gallivanting around the world paying people smugglers, any daughter of that age of mine wouldn't be joining a terrorist organisation but I still would not allow them to have a passport or large amounts of money at hand, poor parenting in my opinion, and now they have a lawyer looking to make claims against the government at a cost to the taxpayer asking for an enquiry, what could this money be put to?!


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## Tomahawk (Dec 24, 2014)

This thread is dark.. have a happy moment:


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## Pointer21 (Feb 21, 2015)

The 72 virgin things is actually just a random number selected for ease, the Ulema state you get unlimited everything you desire in heaven, so 72 is just a quick throw away to mean a lot, like when someone in the west says there were millions of flies buzzing around my pint. Basically it is unlimited virgins.

So when people hear different numbers from different imams, the numbers are all just ways to say a lot. Thought I would just mention it because it always confused me.


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## Pointer21 (Feb 21, 2015)

Delhi said:


> LOL if you READ my posts you will see I am not interested in young females joining ISIS or anything else terrorist related, my main gripe is how our media portray females as innocent and victims while pointing accursary fingers at males who go to the very same place. To make a remark about people not knowing what they are talking about was silly. If you read my posts you would have seen that.
> 
> And I care because it is on my TV every night and simply ignoring problems in the world does not make them go away. I like current affairs and find the topic interesting, some people dont I respect that but please respect that I do care.


But they are innocent, they have not committed a crime. Again why do you care?


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## Pointer21 (Feb 21, 2015)

Archaic said:


> Now you are defending the defender of terrorist paedophiles. :nono:


 Two were 15, one was sixteen, pedophiles are attracted to pre-pubescent girls. Also our age of consent is 16, that is not universal, for example the scandinavians have it at 15, do you claim the Swedish are a nation of pedophiles?

Also the two Asian girls are butter faces, the black one is ok though, looks like a drugged out Rihanna. They are lucky ISL wan't them with all the slave pussy they got.


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## Delhi (Dec 8, 2005)

Why do you care? why are you reading this post> I have explained why I care. Now explain why you do. You come on here without the facts and are mis informed, make out that you are somehow more knowledgeable than anyone else on the topic. Make out that we should not care about what is happening in our world and miss the point of the forum, which is to DISCUSS topics.


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## zak007 (Nov 12, 2011)

Tomahawk said:


> You really want to know? I'll try to explain it. (I used to be muslim before I grew up and learned to think.)
> 
> It's actually frighteningly logical. It requires 2 things:
> 
> ...


This is going to be fun!

It's actually frighteningly logical. It requires 2 things:

1. A strong belief in Islam and its teachings

2. A strong belief that ISIS is correct (This mostly follows from point 1.)

If this is correct, why am I and most muslims I know not doing this? Because it is not in the teachings.

ISIS does not represent islam, ffs they are not even muslims they pray in a fcuking circle. they kill muslims. Their a terrorist group funded by israel. Fs theres a news report from just yesterday showing 2 british planes shot down carrying weapons for isis.

I like the whole, before I learned to think then. May I ask your theory in how this world was created? Give me an answer and do not relate it to religion.

if you manage to have the appropriate lapses in judgement to fulfill those 2 requirements, the rest follows logically from the teachings of Islam:

* This life is a short test, the real life is the eternal life that begins after you die in this world. (The Quran states that after you die and get judged, you will perceive this life as "just a day" and will wish you worked harder during that time.) *Ok I agree with this*

* After this life, you are judged, and all of your deeds are weighed. At this point, based on your "test result" you get placed in heaven/hell. *Agree with this to*

* Heaven/hell is not a binary concept as it seems to be in most Christian beliefs. In Islam, there are different levels of heaven/hell. (Heaven is described as having 7 levels in some accounts, but hundreds in others..) *There are 7 levels in each nowhere does it mention hundreds.*

* The better your deeds, the higher you score and the higher level of heaven you enter. (This is where the "virgins" concept comes from; you get more p*ssy in the higher levels.) So logically you want to work as hard as you can, as you have eternal life afterward and you only have a limited amount of time to score points. *Nowhere does it say you get more wifes in higher levels *

* Jihad gets you a lot of points, this is mentioned many times in the teachings. *Yes but when done in context, not innocently killing lots*

* The highest possible score is achieved via martyrdom; sacrificing your life for Allah, or for Islam. *Ok yes but again only in cases of war.*

* If you want to get this "full score" and get everything possible in the eternal life that follows, you would sign up for any decent Jihads that you can get into, and hope for the chance to die. (This, incidentally, is the reason muslim Jihadists tend to be so suicidal when there are often ways of achieving their goals without killing themselves.) *Suicide is against islam, so them suicide bombers will go to hell and not heaven.*

* People with ****ty lives tend to be more susceptible to the above beliefs; they believe it because they want it to be true. *Hmm so 7 billion muslims must have sh1tty lifes, many of them billionaries.*

The Islamic Iranian government persuaded thousands of school-age boys to run over minefields during the Iran/Iraq war using these arguments. In one day 40,000 young people died to clear a pathway to a city that was under siege by the Iraqis. - Link Evidence? Iran is shia and are different. Believe in different things and are a minority of muslims.

As for killing, from an Islamic terrorist's viewpoint, killing is not ending a life, it is just ending "the test". Some apologists for that attack on the Pakistani school a few weeks ago have stated that "we don't see it as killing children, we are freeing them from this world where they would have likely become sinners under their parents ill teachings and giving them a chance to get to heaven while they are still innocent, and therefore we have done them a great favour". *Anyone who said this is an idiot plain and simple.*


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## Pointer21 (Feb 21, 2015)

Delhi said:


> Why do you care? why are you reading this post> I have explained why I care. Now explain why you do. You come on here without the facts and are mis informed, make out that you are somehow more knowledgeable than anyone else on the topic. Make out that we should not care about what is happening in our world and miss the point of the forum, which is to DISCUSS topics.


You seem to of mistook a genuine question for a sly insult. I am really asking why it is you care? Wouldn't you rather these girls who follow a Wahabbi interpretation of Islam be abroad, than in our country? Why does it bother you they are being called innocent? How are they not? What defines innocent in the first place?

And yes I do think I know more about you than the rise of Wahabbism, but that does not mean i think I am smarter than you, I just have read quite extensively on the subject.

I started reading about it after my brother's last tour in the middle east. From the Ikhwan to the siege of Mecca and the grand mosque to the deal the house of Saud made with the Ulema to be able to fight in Mecca as long as they funded Wahabbi madrases worldwide with billions in oil revenue.


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## Pointer21 (Feb 21, 2015)

zak007 said:


> This is going to be fun!
> 
> It's actually frighteningly logical. It requires 2 things:
> 
> ...


Powerful JRE ! Powerful Shane Smith.


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## Armitage Shanks (Jul 7, 2014)

Pointer21 said:


> You seem to of mistook a genuine question for a sly insult. I am really asking why it is you care? Wouldn't you rather these girls who follow a Wahabbi interpretation of Islam be abroad, than in our country? Why does it bother you they are being called innocent? How are they not? What defines innocent in the first place?
> 
> And yes I do think I know more about you than the rise of Wahabbism, but that does not mean i think I am smarter than you, I just have read quite extensively on the subject.
> 
> I started reading about it after my brother's last tour in the middle east. From the Ikhwan to the siege of Mecca and the grand mosque to the deal the house of Saud made with the Ulema to be able to fight in Mecca as long as they funded Wahabbi madrases worldwide with billions in oil revenue.


The Wahhabi and Salafi sect has been exporting their ideology outwards funded by the Saudi Royal family for a long time. Between 1970 - 1980 Saudi Royal family spent more money on spreading the Wahhabi and Salafi thought train than the Russians spent on propaganda duing the same period.


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## Pointer21 (Feb 21, 2015)

Armitage Shanks said:


> The Wahhabi and Salafi sect has been exporting their ideology outwards funded by the Saudi Royal family for a long time. Between 1970 - 1980 Saudi Royal family spent more money on spreading the Wahhabi and Salafi thought train than the Russians spent on propaganda duing the same period.


 Post 1979 after the Saudi Royal family did a deal with the Ulema (Bin Baz etc) for issuing a fatw against the Wahabbi rebels who took over the grand mosque, they only agreed on the condition the Saudi's would fund Wahabbism and fund it on a massive scale, aborad. Which is the roots of the islamic jihad all over the world today (Bin Laden for example went to the study groups ran by Bin Baz and Juhaiman).


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## Kazza61 (Jun 14, 2008)

Yesterday it was confirmed those three girls had actually entered Syria. Today it's being confirmed that a good sized portion of Syria has now entered them...


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## zak007 (Nov 12, 2011)

Pointer21 said:


> Post 1979 after the Saudi Royal family did a deal with the Ulema (Bin Baz etc) for issuing a fatw against the Wahabbi rebels who took over the grand mosque, they only agreed on the condition the Saudi's would fund Wahabbism and fund it on a massive scale, aborad. Which is the roots of the islamic jihad all over the world today (*Bin Laden for example went to the study groups ran by Bin Baz and Juhaiman*).


bin laden was a cia agent. Worked for the agenda of the CIA


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## Tomahawk (Dec 24, 2014)

zak007 said:


> This is going to be fun!


I don't really like arguing over the internet, but I'll try to give my viewpoint.



> * Heaven/hell is not a binary concept as it seems to be in most Christian beliefs. In Islam, there are different levels of heaven/hell. (Heaven is described as having 7 levels in some accounts, but hundreds in others..) *There are 7 levels in each nowhere does it mention hundreds.*


I may have been wrong about the 100's vs 7 levels of heaven (but I remember someone telling me about 100's).



> * The better your deeds, the higher you score and the higher level of heaven you enter. (This is where the "virgins" concept comes from; you get more p*ssy in the higher levels.) So logically you want to work as hard as you can, as you have eternal life afterward and you only have a limited amount of time to score points. *Nowhere does it say you get more wifes in higher levels *


I would disagree with you there. Here's one example, from Surat'al'Waq'iah, where it describes segregation based on deeds and describes different rewards for different groups:

1. When the Event (i.e. the Day of Resurrection) befalls.

...

7. And you (all) will be in three kinds (i.e. separate groups).

8. So those on the Right Hand (i.e. those who will be given their Records in their right hands), Who will be those on the Right Hand? (As a respect for them, because they will enter Paradise).

9. And those on the Left Hand (i.e. those who will be given their Record in their left hands), Who will be those on the Left Hand? (As a disgrace for them, because they will enter Hell).

10. And those foremost [(in Islamic Faith of Monotheism and in performing righteous deeds) in the life of this world on the very first call for to embrace Islam,] will be foremost (in Paradise).

11. These will be those nearest to Allah.

12. In the Gardens of delight (Paradise).

13. A multitude of those (foremost) will be from the first generations (who embraced Islam).

14. And a few of those (foremost) will be from the later time (generations).

15. (They will be) on thrones woven with gold and precious stones,

16. Reclining thereon, face to face.

17. They will be served by immortal boys,

18. With cups, and jugs, and a glass from the flowing wine,

19. Wherefrom they will get neither any aching of the head, nor any intoxication.

20. And fruit; that they may choose.

21. And the flesh of fowls that they desire.

22. And (there will be) Houris (fair females) with wide, lovely eyes (as wives for the pious),

23. Like unto preserved pearls.

24. A reward for what they used to do.

25. No Laghw (dirty, false, evil vain talk) will they hear therein, nor any sinful speech (like backbiting, etc.).

26. But only the saying of: Salam!, Salam! (greetings with peace) !

27. And those on the Right Hand, - Who will be those on the Right Hand?

28. (They will be) among thornless lote-trees,

29. Among Talh (banana-trees) with fruits piled one above another,

30. In shade long-extended,

31. By water flowing constantly,

32. And fruit in plenty,

33. Whose season is not limited, and their supply will not be cut off,

34. And on couches or thrones, raised high.

35. Verily, We have created them (maidens) of special creation.

36. And made them virgins.

37. Loving (their husbands only), equal in age.

38. For those on the Right Hand.

39. A multitude of those (on the Right Hand) will be from the first generation (who embraced Islam).

40. And a multitude of those (on the Right Hand) will be from the later times (generations).

41. And those on the Left Hand Who will be those on the Left Hand?

42. In fierce hot wind and boiling water,

...

In summary, in this passage it splits people into 3 groups, the "foremost" which get Houris (the legendary super-hot ones), the "right-hand" group which get fair virgins, and the "left-hand" group which get boiling water.

(By the way, I always wondered about this passage.. what do the women with good deeds get? Why aren't they mentioned at all? It seems this part was written specifically to a male audience.)



> * Jihad gets you a lot of points, this is mentioned many times in the teachings. *Yes but when done in context, not innocently killing lots*
> 
> * The highest possible score is achieved via martyrdom; sacrificing your life for Allah, or for Islam. *Ok yes but again only in cases of war.*


"Innocent" is in the eye of the beholder.



> * If you want to get this "full score" and get everything possible in the eternal life that follows, you would sign up for any decent Jihads that you can get into, and hope for the chance to die. (This, incidentally, is the reason muslim Jihadists tend to be so suicidal when there are often ways of achieving their goals without killing themselves.) *Suicide is against islam, so them suicide bombers will go to hell and not heaven.*


Suicide is against islam, but dying for a noble cause is not. It's a matter of perspective. You may argue that they are idiots with the wrong perspective, but they argue that you're a bad muslim.



> * People with ****ty lives tend to be more susceptible to the above beliefs; they believe it because they want it to be true. *Hmm so 7 billion muslims must have sh1tty lifes, many of them billionaries.*


There are not 7 billion muslims. Most muslims are not billionaires. The vast majority of religious people in the world (be they followers of Islam or any other religion) grew up in poor socio-economic conditions.



> As for killing, from an Islamic terrorist's viewpoint, killing is not ending a life, it is just ending "the test". Some apologists for that attack on the Pakistani school a few weeks ago have stated that "we don't see it as killing children, we are freeing them from this world where they would have likely become sinners under their parents ill teachings and giving them a chance to get to heaven while they are still innocent, and therefore we have done them a great favour". *Anyone who said this is an idiot plain and simple.*


I agree. Of course he was an idiot, but it goes to show the reasoning behind these acts.


----------



## Armitage Shanks (Jul 7, 2014)

Pointer21 said:


> Post 1979 after the Saudi Royal family did a deal with the Ulema (Bin Baz etc) for issuing a fatw against the Wahabbi rebels who took over the grand mosque, they only agreed on the condition the Saudi's would fund Wahabbism and fund it on a massive scale, aborad. Which is the roots of the islamic jihad all over the world today (Bin Laden for example went to the study groups ran by Bin Baz and Juhaiman).


Muhammad ibn Abdul Wahhab and his teachings have been entwined with the Saudi Royal family for over 200 years. He helped them capture power, as I am sure you know. The oil crisis in the 70's flooded the coffers. One tactic the Saudi's have used is to throw money at any internal problem that arises.

Political Islam is not Islam. To me Political Islam is fascism in the true sense.


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## Pointer21 (Feb 21, 2015)

zak007 said:


> bin laden was a cia agent. Worked for the agenda of the CIA


 No he wasn't, this is something many liberals say because they don't actually research, they take shiny bits like magpies. Bin Laden as a commander in the Mujahideen was part of an organisation that took weapons and money from the CIA, the CIA funded them as the enemy of their main enemy, the Soviet Union.

Bin Laden was never a member of the CIA, trained by the CIA or fought directly for the CIA. Claiming he did because the CIA supported the Mujahideen against the soviets is like saying Stalin was an agent of the British and fought for British interests.

These are simply cases of groups fighting a common enemy, then fighting one another.


----------



## Pointer21 (Feb 21, 2015)

Armitage Shanks said:


> Muhammad ibn Abdul Wahhab and his teachings have been entwined with the Saudi Royal family for over 200 years. He helped them capture power, as I am sure you know. The oil crisis in the 70's flooded the coffers. One tactic the Saudi's have used is to throw money at any internal problem that arises.
> 
> Political Islam is not Islam. To me Political Islam is fascism in the true sense.


 True Islam is the Islam of Osama bin laden. If the Koran was literally dictated by god, through the angel Gabriel to Muhammed as you have to believe to be a Muslim, then everything in the Koran is true and good for all times. Moderate Islam is just secular muslims cherry picking their religion to fit their modern morals. As is modern judaism etc etc.


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## Armitage Shanks (Jul 7, 2014)

Pointer21 said:


> True Islam is the Islam of Osama bin laden. If the Koran was literally dictated by god, through the angel Gabriel to Muhammed as you have to believe to be a Muslim, then everything in the Koran is true and good for all times. Moderate Islam is just secular muslims cherry picking their religion to fit their modern morals. As is modern judaism etc etc.


How about the bible? Is it only true christians who take it literally the word of god and live their life by it?


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## Pointer21 (Feb 21, 2015)

Armitage Shanks said:


> How about the bible? Is it only true christians who take it literally the word of god and live their life by it?


 Yes, I would assert that. Others would deny that assertion though, naturally.


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## dirtymusket1 (May 24, 2008)

Who Cares.....................

Stupid is as stupid does (to quote Forrest Gump)


----------



## Pointer21 (Feb 21, 2015)

Papa Smurf said:


> Pretty sure ye started the trouble with the irish


 We indeed did.

Can you imagine how the English would react if a country invaded and colonised us, then after hundreds of years of struggle left the south but still kept the North?,

we would be killing Irish like it was going out of fashion.


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## Delhi (Dec 8, 2005)

Pointer21 said:


> Yes, I would assert that. Others would deny that assertion though, naturally.


To be fair Pointer, when I first read your posts I thought you were trolling and looking for an argument. Its clear now though you are knowledgeable in the subject and as such have earned some respect from me.

But my point still stands, i care because what happens elsewhere in teh world can and does have an impact to life here in UK. I like current affair discussion and despite what many may believe I have no real political persuasion. I just like to discuss topics


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## zak007 (Nov 12, 2011)

Tomahawk said:


> I don't really like arguing over the internet, but I'll try to give my viewpoint.
> 
> I may have been wrong about the 100's vs 7 levels of heaven (but I remember someone telling me about 100's).
> 
> ...


I don't really get what all the points you labelled are for? They do not talk about more virgins for different levels.

My mistake there is 2 billion muslims. A small minority say suicide etc, that is not right. They are the minority and the majority are against it.

Not many of them, some of them in saudia, UAE, pakistan etc. The point was not to say how many of them are rich it was to counter arguement when you said many of these people have no lifes. Many of the world believe in religion so I suppose the majority of the world has sh1tty lifes....

What reasoning does it go to show? It doesn't show any reasoning. It was a terrorist attack plain and simple. No reason behind it other than to cause carnage.

As said before, interested in hearing your reasons for leaving islam and how you think the world was made.


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## Pointer21 (Feb 21, 2015)

Delhi said:


> To be fair Pointer, when I first read your posts I thought you were trolling and looking for an argument. Its clear now though you are knowledgeable in the subject and as such have earned some respect from me.
> 
> But my point still stands, i care because what happens elsewhere in teh world can and does have an impact to life here in UK. I like current affair discussion and despite what many may believe I have no real political persuasion. I just like to discuss topics


 Cheers mate, as I said I really wasn't taking the **** if my post came off as rude it certainly was not posted with that intent. Sorry if I came across like a douche  .


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## zak007 (Nov 12, 2011)

Pointer21 said:


> No he wasn't, this is something many liberals say because they don't actually research, they take shiny bits like magpies. Bin Laden as a commander in the Mujahideen was part of an organisation that took weapons and money from the CIA, the CIA funded them as the enemy of their main enemy, the Soviet Union.
> 
> Bin Laden was never a member of the CIA, trained by the CIA or fought directly for the CIA. Claiming he did because the CIA supported the Mujahideen against the soviets is like saying Stalin was an agent of the British and fought for British interests.
> 
> These are simply cases of groups fighting a common enemy, then fighting one another.


Being trained by the CIa and funded is near to being a CIA agent whily maybe not the same. He would not have been where he is without the CIA. There is no bin ladins koran or islam. Most videos of him showing him to be talking against the west are fake.


----------



## Delhi (Dec 8, 2005)

Pointer21 said:


> Cheers mate, as I said I really wasn't taking the **** if my post came off as rude it certainly was not posted with that intent. Sorry if I came across like a douche  .


There I just liked you and gave you 5 green bars LOL

Your input will be most welcome on this board. Intellect always interests.


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## Pointer21 (Feb 21, 2015)

zak007 said:


> Being trained by the CIa and funded is near to being a CIA agent whily maybe not the same. He would not have been where he is without the CIA. There is no bin ladins koran or islam. Most videos of him showing him to be talking against the west are fake.


 He was never trained by the CIA, the videos are legitimate. This conspiracy that he was managed by the CIA is pure asinine garbage. There is a reason these conspiracies never have any credible people backing them, that is because they lack a factual basis, they rely on half truths and mistruths.

If someone points that out they are stooges in the conspiracy, it is a self fulfilling circular view that end ups encompassing the entire world view of people who blindly follow it.


----------



## zak007 (Nov 12, 2011)

Pointer21 said:


> He was never trained by the CIA, the videos are legitimate. This conspiracy that he was managed by the CIA is pure asinine garbage. There is a reason these conspiracies never have any credible people backing them, that is because they lack a factual basis, they rely on half truths and mistruths.
> 
> If someone points that out they are stooges in the conspiracy, it is a self fulfilling circular view that end ups encompassing the entire world view of people who blindly follow it.


his videos were bull, you said he was trained and funded 2 posts ago?

Just the same way isis videos are bull. Can you imagine being set on fire and casually sitting there holding the metal bars of a cage?


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## MR RIGSBY (Jun 12, 2007)

zak007 said:


> his videos were bull, you said he was trained and funded 2 posts ago?
> 
> Just the same way isis videos are bull. Can you imagine being set on fire and casually sitting there holding the metal bars of a cage?


He didn't say that mate. He said the Mujahideen were funded by the CIA, of which Bin Laden was part of (along with thousands of others). Any links between Bin Laden and the CIA are very tenuous


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## Tomahawk (Dec 24, 2014)

zak007 said:


> I don't really get what all the points you labelled are for? They do not talk about more virgins for different levels.


No but it does describe better quality women for the better levels.



> My mistake there is 2 billion muslims. A small minority say suicide etc, that is not right. They are the minority and the majority are against it.
> 
> Not many of them, some of them in saudia, UAE, pakistan etc. The point was not to say how many of them are rich it was to counter arguement when you said many of these people have no lifes. Many of the world believe in religion so I suppose the majority of the world has sh1tty lifes....


There are a billion smokers in the world, does that mean they're right?



> What reasoning does it go to show? It doesn't show any reasoning. It was a terrorist attack plain and simple. No reason behind it other than to cause carnage.


This is false. Every act that is labeled "terrorism" has a reason and an explanation behind it. Terrorists always believe what they are doing is absolutely correct.



> As said before, interested in hearing your reasons for leaving islam and how you think the world was made.


How was God made?


----------



## Prince Adam (Mar 17, 2012)

As if religion could get you to decide to go live in a cave


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## GCMAX (Dec 31, 2013)

Pointer21 said:


> No he wasn't, this is something many liberals say because they don't actually research, they take shiny bits like magpies. Bin Laden as a commander in the Mujahideen was part of an organisation that took weapons and money from the CIA, the CIA funded them as the enemy of their main enemy, the Soviet Union.
> 
> Bin Laden was never a member of the CIA, trained by the CIA or fought directly for the CIA. Claiming he did because the CIA supported the Mujahideen against the soviets is like saying Stalin was an agent of the British and fought for British interests.
> 
> These are simply cases of groups fighting a common enemy, then fighting one another.


Actually Bin Laden and his Mujahideen crew originated from Saudi Arabia which has had very strong Western links for a long time. Mujahideen were trained by CIA operatives, funded and armed by the US government, US freely admits this. The US gov, even in those times was in the servitude of Israel and guess what, Israel had no qualms with the US over this because they knew the plan was to upset and overthrow uncooperative governments in the Middle East for the acquisition of oil, gas, minerals and land.



Pointer21 said:


> True Islam is the Islam of Osama bin laden. If the Koran was literally dictated by god, through the angel Gabriel to Muhammed as you have to believe to be a Muslim, then everything in the Koran is true and good for all times. Moderate Islam is just secular muslims cherry picking their religion to fit their modern morals. As is modern judaism etc etc.


Not true. The vast majority of Christians today do not follow the bible word for word, if they did women would not be able to speak in church, no Christian would get remarried, the sick would rely on the church for healing, Christians would have their eyeballs gouged out if the eye caused them to lust and every Christian would give away all their property! The fact is only the extremists follow a religion to the letter and there are extremists in every religion but they are a minority. The only reason we are hearing so much about Islam at the moment is because Muslim countries are under attack from Western and Saudi funded wahabi lunatics like Islamic state who the vast majority of Muslims don't want anywhere near them, let alone have them running their countries and our media is complicit in furthering the genocidal globalists plans of the U.N.

I used to believe the same things as you as I became brainwashed through media bombardment. Please wake up from the propaganda and realise it's our own governments who are deceiving us.


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## benno_2010 (Oct 8, 2010)

Have only read 6 pages over the night - yes they should be charged as adults and given same punishment. Also they have been brainwashed. To anyone giving sympaphy or reasoning to 'this' terrorism, you are a ****. I'm sure this thrwad had taken a sinister turn and it will do. People will be slagging off peoples view. As it happens on here - at the end of the day, if people join such groups, at the age and education they are, they know what try re doing. Everyone's got their views, as we've seen on countless other threads - how is the arguing going?


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## benno_2010 (Oct 8, 2010)

Tomahawk said:


> All religious theories are ridiculous when viewed from the outside. This is the ironically funny thing about religious people. Christians think muslims are ridiculous because they follow a 6th century pedophile, muslims think Christians are ridiculous because they believe God somehow managed to mate with a human female and produce a son, the list goes on. Both sides believe that some guy built a boat large enough to fit all the animals of the world. The fact is, all religious theories are inherently ridiculous. They only work because they are all designed in such a way as to indoctrinate children at a very young age when they are very impressionable.
> 
> We all think Santa is a cool and fun concept, but really if you look at it objectively, it's a bizarre story about a fat man that lives in the north pole, drives a flying sled pulled by magical reindeer, breaks into everybody's house in the world in one night, and delivers presents made by an army of slave midgets. If you told that story to an adult he would tell you to get the **** out..
> 
> ...


Agree 100 % but am too drunk to get into convo about it!


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## Pointer21 (Feb 21, 2015)

GCMAX said:


> Actually Bin Laden and his Mujahideen crew originated from Saudi Arabia which has had very strong Western links for a long time. Mujahideen were trained by CIA operatives, funded and armed by the US government, US freely admits this. The US gov, even in those times was in the servitude of Israel and guess what, Israel had no qualms with the US over this because they knew the plan was to upset and overthrow uncooperative governments in the Middle East for the acquisition of oil, gas, minerals and land.
> 
> Not true. The vast majority of Christians today do not follow the bible word for word, if they did women would not be able to speak in church, no Christian would get remarried, the sick would rely on the church for healing, Christians would have their eyeballs gouged out if the eye caused them to lust and every Christian would give away all their property! The fact is only the extremists follow a religion to the letter and there are extremists in every religion but they are a minority. The only reason we are hearing so much about Islam at the moment is because Muslim countries are under attack from Western and Saudi funded wahabi lunatics like Islamic state who the vast majority of Muslims don't want anywhere near them, let alone have them running their countries and our media is complicit in furthering the genocidal globalists plans of the U.N.
> 
> I used to believe the same things as you as I became brainwashed through media bombardment. Please wake up from the propaganda and realise it's our own governments who are deceiving us.


 You are very wrong, the Mujahideen did not originate from Saudi Arabia, it originated in the tribal mountains of Afghanistan and Pakistan, was comprised of Islamic students (Taliban means student, the Mujahideen later had an internal war out of which arose the Taliban, the stronger faction) and had mass support in the rural areas of Afghanistan outside of the Afghan communist party's control in the city's.

If you want to do some reading on the subject I would happily recommend some reading material to you?

Maybe you mean AlQaeda? Again they were not funded or trained by the CIA in any way, they also had nothing to do with the Mujahideen or the Taliban apart from Bin Laden volunteered for the Mujahideen, left, then started AlQaeda. People throw these conspiracies about without any evidence, because there is none.

The Bin Laden family were from Saudi Arabia, they owned one of the biggest construction companies, the one that was actually selected to oversee the expansion of the grand mosque. They didn't have many "western links", they were connected to many Royal princes and of course had business ties with westerners but they were no allies of the U.S or the west. They were still as are most Saudi's, by comparison to muslims of the west, fundamentalist.

Many of the bin Laden family were attending the very first Wahabbi study groups ran by Juhayman and the Mahdi rebels. These preached the open genocide of all infidels until the return of the Mahdi, who with jesus christ would return in end times and kill all the christians and jews and swallow them into the ground (Islamic prophecy). They thought they had the Mahdi and proclaimed it when they took over the Mosque. So did many Muslims.

As for most Christians not being fundamentalists, I would agree, most christians are secular and don't really follow the bible. Just like any muslim who does not believe in child marriage is not a real muslim because they ignore the passages in the Koran and Hadith which are problematic and embarrassing in the 21st century.

Also I actually read and do my own studying on subjects like these that interest me, climbing I am brainwashed and that I get my narrative from the media is bogus.


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## zyphy (Jun 23, 2014)

Some of the posts in here are unfathomable lol

Fully agree with your points @Pointer21


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## PLauGE (Oct 17, 2010)

Bring the horrible little cnuts back, put them in a industrial sized blender and feed them to some fcuking pigs


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## zak007 (Nov 12, 2011)

Tomahawk said:


> No but it does describe better quality women for the better levels.
> 
> *So we've established a few of your points are bull, not a good start*
> 
> ...


God was not made. Answer my questions or I will refuse to answer yours, why did you leave islam. Whats your explanation for the world existing? Did we magically appear through a big bang?


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## FlunkyTurtle (Aug 5, 2013)

Pointer21 said:


> *You are very wrong, the Mujahideen did not originate from Saudi Arabia, it originated in the tribal mountains of Afghanistan and Pakistan, was comprised of Islamic students (Taliban means student, the Mujahideen later had an internal war out of which arose the Taliban, the stronger faction) and had mass support in the rural areas of Afghanistan outside of the Afghan communist party's control in the city's.*
> 
> *
> If you want to do some reading on the subject I would happily recommend some reading material to you?*
> ...


This is correct.


----------



## freddee (Mar 2, 2009)

ImmortalTech said:


> I see a lot of hate towards ISIS.
> 
> The media is such a powerful thing, and evidently works. I bet the same people hating ISIS now are the same people ****ting themselves over ebola a few weeks back.


Every human rights group have condemned ISIS all reports, non media are saying ISIS are brutal, other terrorist organisations have said ISIS are very extreme and cruel, and just because the world wised up to ebola doesn't mean that it was of no consequence, it is just that more effort was put in to its control.

On the other hand I believe some influence will be poured on by the American republican press who always have to find an enemy to fight, MIC/CIA, that's how they make their money, keep America paranoid.


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## Delhi (Dec 8, 2005)

zak007 said:


> God was not made. Answer my questions or I will refuse to answer yours, why did you leave islam. Whats your explanation for the world existing? Did we magically appear through a big bang?


not getting involved in your debate here but I do have a question for you. And I mean this in a nice manner. I believe in science and fact. You have asked how the world was created and insinuated that the Big Bang theory is somehow wrong or deluded. What I would like to know is how you think the world was created? As far as I can see only science has given us ANY sort of logical explanation that is supported by fact and evidence. What evidence do you have to the contrary. Is your evidence from a book written by men? Men who had little understanding of science?

again not looking for argument here but you can't expect everyone to believe what you do. I personally don't believe in things unless they make sense and have some logic to them. Your books (all religion) are full of inaccuracies, downright lies and anyone with any sense would agree. You expect me to believe a man waved a wand and everything came about? Why would God even be a man?


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## 2004mark (Oct 26, 2013)

zak007 said:


> Did we magically appear through a big bang?


The answer of why we are here lays in quantum physics (feel like I should also add a 'imo' here lol).

I don't know enough to form my own solid opinion yet, but understanding the mass of the Universe is only energy interacting with more energy, or should I say its higgs field, makes it easier to get my head around how everything came from nothing... because everything could also be described as nothing.

People have been worshipping gods long before the abrahamic religions were conceived and religions are a total understandable product of our insatiable need to simply understand and put order to how and why we are here. For me, as a non-Muslim to believe in the Qur'an is as out there as me believing in the gods of the Incas.


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## zak007 (Nov 12, 2011)

2004mark said:


> The answer of why we are here lays in quantum physics (feel like I should also add a 'imo' here lol).
> 
> I don't know enough to form my own solid opinion yet, but understanding the mass of the Universe is only energy interacting with more energy, or should I say its higgs field, makes it easier to get my head around how everything came from nothing... because everything could also be described as nothing.
> 
> People have been worshipping gods long before the abrahamic religions were conceived and religions are a total understandable product of our insatiable need to simply understand and put order to how and why we are here. For me, as a non-Muslim to believe in the Qur'an is as out there as me believing in the gods of the Incas.





Delhi said:


> not getting involved in your debate here but I do have a question for you. And I mean this in a nice manner. I believe in science and fact. You have asked how the world was created and insinuated that the Big Bang theory is somehow wrong or deluded. What I would like to know is how you think the world was created? As far as I can see only science has given us ANY sort of logical explanation that is supported by fact and evidence. What evidence do you have to the contrary. Is your evidence from a book written by men? Men who had little understanding of science?
> 
> again not looking for argument here but you can't expect everyone to believe what you do. I personally don't believe in things unless they make sense and have some logic to them. Your books (all religion) are full of inaccuracies, downright lies and anyone with any sense would agree. You expect me to believe a man waved a wand and everything came about? Why would God even be a man?


I'll kill two bird with one stone here:



Delhi said:


> not getting involved in your debate here but I do have a question for you. And I mean this in a nice manner. I believe in science and fact. You have asked how the world was created and insinuated that the Big Bang theory is somehow wrong or deluded. What I would like to know is how you think the world was created? As far as I can see only science has given us ANY sort of logical explanation that is supported by fact and evidence. What evidence do you have to the contrary. Is your evidence from a book written by men? Men who had little understanding of science?
> 
> again not looking for argument here but you can't expect everyone to believe what you do. I personally don't believe in things unless they make sense and have some logic to them. Your books (all religion) are full of inaccuracies, downright lies and anyone with any sense would agree. You expect me to believe a man waved a wand and everything came about? Why would God even be a man?


When describing the creation of the "heavens and the earth," the Quran does not discount the theory of a "Big Bang" explosion at the start of it all. In fact, the Quran says that "the heavens and the earth were joined together as one unit, before We clove them asunder" (21:30). Following this big explosion, Allah "turned to the sky, and it had been (as) smoke. He said to it and to the earth: 'Come together, willingly or unwillingly.' They said: 'We come (together) in willing obedience'" (41:11). Thus the elements and what was to become the planets and stars began to cool, come together, and form into shape, following the natural laws that Allah established in the universe.

The Quran further states that Allah created the sun, the moon, and the planets, each with their own individual courses or orbits. "It is He Who created the night and the day, and the sun and the moon; all (the celestial bodies) swim along, each in its rounded course" (21:33).

I do not question the big bang theory itself, but I question it happening on its own and mankind being made from it.

Mate plenty of science and fact in quran. The things in the quran, a man no matter how smart could have wrote such a book without contradiction whatsoever. Many things of islam could not be imagined 1400 years ago.

The problem here is, people think muhammad created islam, he did not. He was the last prophet & was given the quran for the rest of mankind as no more prophets would be coming after him.

God is not a man.


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## Delhi (Dec 8, 2005)

zak007 said:


> I'll kill two bird with one stone here:
> 
> When describing the creation of the "heavens and the earth," the Quran does not discount the theory of a "Big Bang" explosion at the start of it all. In fact, the Quran says that "the heavens and the earth were joined together as one unit, before We clove them asunder" (21:30). Following this big explosion, Allah "turned to the sky, and it had been (as) smoke. He said to it and to the earth: 'Come together, willingly or unwillingly.' They said: 'We come (together) in willing obedience'" (41:11). Thus the elements and what was to become the planets and stars began to cool, come together, and form into shape, following the natural laws that Allah established in the universe.
> 
> ...


Fair play and thanks for not taking my question out of context. I can't argue with the formation of the universe described in that manner as science believes it was very similar.


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## havering (May 14, 2013)

Think I've been sick watching this


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## freddee (Mar 2, 2009)

ImmortalTech said:


> I'll make it easy for you. You're being fed bullsh!t on the television.


So ebola never happened?! or isn't still killing people?!


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## zak007 (Nov 12, 2011)

freddee said:


> So ebola never happened?! or isn't still killing people?!


it happened after many were given "vaccines"


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## ImmortalTech (Feb 19, 2015)

freddee said:


> So ebola never happened?! or isn't still killing people?!


"Happened?" It's a disease.

It's been around for decades mate.

Lately though, the 'scare' you saw on the media, the reason we're talking about it now, is because it had recently had a spike (which was completely blown out of proportion and exaggerated beyond belief that it's sickening how daft people are). It was plastered all over the news to keep real issues closed such as the war crimes currently going on in Gaza. Or the massive Hungarian? (can't remember which country, 2000 people) slaughter that happened during the time Ebola was all over the news.

Scaremongering government bastards.


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## Archaic (Mar 8, 2010)

Personally, I denounce the existence of 'God' with every single strand of DNA in my body, and believe 100% religion to be evolved from fear, superiority, naivety, delusion, and to a certain extent, mental illness.

I could write for pages, but in the end it will be to no avail, my view is not up for debate - and neither is theirs. Besides, these threads get locked in days, whatever gets said will soon drop to the bottom of the pile, likely never to be read again.


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## Tomahawk (Dec 24, 2014)

zak007 said:


> God was not made. Answer my questions or I will refuse to answer yours, why did you leave islam. Whats your explanation for the world existing? Did we magically appear through a big bang?


I left Islam because I could not find any evidence to support the idea that Islam is any more correct than any other ideology. All the evidence seems to support the idea that Islam follows the same patterns as anthropologists have found in other made-up religions. People are terrified of death, of poverty, of being alone and unloved. These are mankind's greatest fears. Isn't it convenient that someone just came along with perfect spectacular solutions to ALL of these problems in one story?

My explanation for the world existing is that I do not have one. I don't really know anything about the big bang theory so I have no comment on that. I don't really care where the world came from. It's here now. I think that the story of an all-powerful being creating it and that the only way he communicates with us is via some ancient scrolls from the 6th century is a bit strange, and it's more like a fairy tale than anything else. It has just evolved into a cultural thing that people tell their children, similar to the way Western civilization has somehow agreed to lie to all their children about Santa.

In my experience, theologists try to "prove" the existence of a God by saying "where does the world come from, it didn't come out of nowhere so there must have been a God that created it". But this argument fails because it is based on the premise that everything must have something that came before it to create it, and then logically the question that follows is "OK, if God made the world, then who made God?" And that's where this "proof" fails.


----------



## SickCurrent (Sep 19, 2005)




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## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

SickCurrent said:


>


Harry Stiles?


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## the wee man (Dec 17, 2014)

ImmortalTech said:


> "Happened?" It's a disease.
> 
> It's been around for decades mate.
> 
> ...


you really need to do more research mate

Ebola has mutated since it was first discovered into a much more powerful and deadly strain

There are five subtypes of Ebola viruses: Zaire, Sudan, Bundibugyo, Tai Forest (formerly known as Côte d'Ivoire), and Reston, each named after the location in which it was first identified. The first three subtypes have been associated with large EVD outbreaks in Africa. The Reston subtype is found in the Western Pacific and although it is highly pathogenic in nonhuman primates, it is not known to cause illness in humans. In addition to Ebola virus, there is one other member of the Filovirus family, known as Marburg virus (named after the city in Germany in which it was first discovered), that also causes hemorrhagic fever.

cheers shaun


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## PLauGE (Oct 17, 2010)

The wee man, every post of your I read at the bottom I thinking your thanking some cnut called shaun

Cheers tony


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## the wee man (Dec 17, 2014)

PLauGE said:


> The wee man, every post of your I read at the bottom I thinking your thanking some cnut called shaun
> 
> Cheers tony


you are incorrect mate

1.i am a cvnt

2.i'm called shaun

yet another fecker got issues with my luffily scottishy politeness  :thumbup1:

CHEERS SHAUN


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## the wee man (Dec 17, 2014)

MissMartinez said:


> It reminds me of that man that went to Thailand who signed off as John. @merkleman was good friends with him!


i would love to go to Thailand and after reading Merkelmans posts,i think the guys ok :thumbup1:

folk on here have brought John up before,was it not regards John he signed,imo nowt wrong with that pal :lol:

cheers shaun


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## zak007 (Nov 12, 2011)

Tomahawk said:


> I left Islam because I could not find any evidence to support the idea that Islam is any more correct than any other ideology. All the evidence seems to support the idea that Islam follows the same patterns as anthropologists have found in other made-up religions. People are terrified of death, of poverty, of being alone and unloved. These are mankind's greatest fears. Isn't it convenient that someone just came along with perfect spectacular solutions to ALL of these problems in one story?
> 
> My explanation for the world existing is that I do not have one. I don't really know anything about the big bang theory so I have no comment on that. I don't really care where the world came from. It's here now. I think that the story of an all-powerful being creating it and that the only way he communicates with us is via some ancient scrolls from the 6th century is a bit strange, and it's more like a fairy tale than anything else. It has just evolved into a cultural thing that people tell their children, similar to the way Western civilization has somehow agreed to lie to all their children about Santa.
> 
> In my experience, theologists try to "prove" the existence of a God by saying "where does the world come from, it didn't come out of nowhere so there must have been a God that created it". But this argument fails because it is based on the premise that everything must have something that came before it to create it, and then logically the question that follows is "OK, if God made the world, then who made God?" And that's where this "proof" fails.


You ovbiously didn't read well enough, there are many facts in the quran that science found out thousands of years later

All other books are full of filthy words and contradictions.

Why would someone want to follow a religion and live a full life believing a god existed when they could have absolute freedom and no limits? I.e do drugs, sell drugs, gamble, drink, have sex whatever.....

A man 1400 years ago would not be able to write such a book. Which begs the question where did it come from? Many islamic predictions have came true but how did a man 1400 years predict these? Simple it was from god and not him.

trust me many people question it, my brother included who refuses to believe in it but can't cite an excuse why. I am open to debate about this.

Yes but god is god, god has always been here he has no maker. We were not made through evolution thats bull1sht. Humans will never be able to create life without man and woman why? Because only god can. If god was not real man would be able to create humans.


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## EpicSquats (Mar 29, 2014)

zak007 said:


> If god was not real man would be able to create humans.


Whatever you're taking, lower the dosage, massively.


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## dann19900 (Dec 29, 2012)

zak007 said:


> The Quran further states that Allah created the sun, the moon, and the planets, each with their own individual courses or orbits. "It is He Who created the night and the day, and the sun and the moon, *a few 100 million paedophiles,a load of psychotic terrorists,a big expanse of land with no money or food and a patridge in a pear tree*; all (the celestial bodies) swim along, each in its rounded course" (21:33).


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## zak007 (Nov 12, 2011)

a few 100 million peados? You referring to westminister or the catholic church?

Terrorists such as ISIS? Isis who are funded by america? And pray in a fcuking circle ffs?

Put your last sentence into english so I can read it.

Let me clear one thing up, Islam is perfect Humans are not. This is the same in any religion, race or creed.


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## EpicSquats (Mar 29, 2014)

zak007 said:


> a few 100 million peados? You referring to westminister or the catholic church?
> 
> Terrorists such as ISIS? Isis who are funded by america? And pray in a fcuking circle ffs?
> 
> ...


Islam is man made.


----------



## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

zak007 said:


> a few 100 million peados? You referring to westminister or the catholic church?
> 
> Terrorists such as ISIS? Isis who are funded by america? And pray in a fcuking circle ffs?
> 
> ...


Oxymoron of the month goes to.....


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## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

zak007 said:


> a few 100 million peados? You referring to westminister or the catholic church?
> 
> Terrorists such as ISIS? Isis who are funded by america? And pray in a fcuking circle ffs?
> 
> ...


Islam is perfect? Are you smoking crystal meth?


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## EpicSquats (Mar 29, 2014)

MissMartinez said:


> Ever since we learned to write! Don't think they had the best writing or reading skills 1400 years ago!


So the first Quran was a crayon drawing?


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## EpicSquats (Mar 29, 2014)

FelonE said:


> Islam is perfect? Are you smoking crystal meth?


I have a sneaking suspicion he wouldn't be saying that if he wasn't Muslim himself.


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## Carlsandman (Aug 30, 2012)

zak007 said:


> a few 100 million peados? You referring to westminister or the catholic church?
> 
> Terrorists such as ISIS? Isis who are funded by america? And pray in a fcuking circle ffs?
> 
> ...


Take your preaching somewhere else, fvck all religion, scourge of mankind.


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## PLauGE (Oct 17, 2010)

JESUS, MARY AND JOESPH, PUT THAT BONG DOWN ZAC I BEG YOU


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## Pointer21 (Feb 21, 2015)

zak007 said:


> a few 100 million peados? You referring to westminister or the catholic church?
> 
> Terrorists such as ISIS? Isis who are funded by america? And pray in a fcuking circle ffs?
> 
> ...


From the Hadith:

Volume 8, Book 82, Number 816:

Narrated Ibn 'Abbas:

'Umar said, "I am afraid that after a long time has passed, people may say, "We do not find the Verses of the Rajam (stoning to death) in the Holy Book," and consequently they may go astray by leaving an obligation that Allah has revealed. Lo! I confirm that the penalty of Rajam be inflicted on him who commits illegal sexual intercourse, if he is already married and the crime is proved by witnesses or pregnancy or confession." Sufyan added, "I have memorized this narration in this way." 'Umar added, "Surely Allah's Apostle carried out the penalty of Rajam, and so did we after him."

So can we clear something up? Do you believe stoning as Muhammed practised on adulterers and Homosexuals is legitimate and a perfect form of justice?

How about men marrying 6 year olds like Muhammed? (He married her when she was six and she went to live with him at 9) Islam claims that Muhammed was the perfect human being and model of Islam, his behaviour is said to be good for all times, if this is true, you must support pedophilia and stoning of adulterers?


----------



## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)




----------



## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)




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## PLauGE (Oct 17, 2010)

These muslims do stick together though, not like us white folk

if a catholic priest is found to be a nonse, us white folk are disgusted by it and want the fcuker stringing up, any white man found to be a nonse is living near by, chances are he'll have his home torched

But the muzzies, they stick together,, nonse white girls and none of um bat an eyelid, like no muslim brother can do any wrong, same goes for this isis BS, muslims still blindly stick up for them, suprised @tonks007 and @millitant havent piped up yet


----------



## Pointer21 (Feb 21, 2015)

PLauGE said:


> These muslims do stick together though, not like us white folk
> 
> if a catholic priest is found to be a nonse, us white folk are disgusted by it and want the fcuker stringing up, any white man found to be a nonse is living near by, chances are he'll have his home torched
> 
> But the muzzies, they stick together,, nonse white girls and none of um bat an eyelid, like no muslim brother can do any wrong, same goes for this isis BS, muslims still blindly stick up for them, suprised @tonks007 and @millitant havent piped up yet


 I am a huge critic of Islam but this kind of stuff makes me uncomfortable. It can be a fine line between criticism of an ideology and ethnic chauvinism and racial xenophobia.


----------



## PLauGE (Oct 17, 2010)

Pointer21 said:


> I am a huge critic of Islam but this kind of stuff makes me uncomfortable. It can be a fine line between criticism of an ideology and ethnic chauvinism and racial xenophobia.


come again?


----------



## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

PLauGE said:


> come again?


Basically you can't criticize Islam because its racist lol


----------



## dann19900 (Dec 29, 2012)

zak007 said:


> a few 100 million peados? You referring to westminister or the catholic church?
> 
> Terrorists such as ISIS? Isis who are funded by america? And pray in a fcuking circle ffs?
> 
> ...


laugh out loud, do you honestly think they're as many white paedos as there are muslim ones? In real life? Do you hear about many white paedo rings, groups of mates abusing little girls? Seems a muslim thing to me. Not hard to see where it comes from either is it lol


----------



## PLauGE (Oct 17, 2010)

FelonE said:


> Basically you can't criticize Islam because its racist lol


Thanks for clarifying, should of known :lol:


----------



## PLauGE (Oct 17, 2010)

dann19900 said:


> laugh out loud, do you honestly think they're as many white paedos as there are muslim ones? In real life? Do you hear about many white paedo rings, groups of mates abusing little girls? Seems a muslim thing to me. Not hard to see where it comes from either is it lol


Hold up, gary glitter got 16 years today, hes white, thought id put that out there before a muzzie sympathizer does :laugh:


----------



## Pointer21 (Feb 21, 2015)

FelonE said:


> Basically you can't criticize Islam because its racist lol


 Did you not see my above posts rather obtusely critiquing Islam? Please don't manufacture a false narrative.

@PLauGE My point was you went from criticising the Islamic ideology to:

1. Bringing race into the debate "us white people" etc, Islam is not a race, framing it in such ethnic and racial narratives is a racialist one.

2. You categorised two huge groups and claimed one does do something broadly and the other does not, this is false and builds animosity.


----------



## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

Pointer21 said:


> Did you not see my above posts rather obtusely critiquing Islam? Please don't manufacture a false narrative.
> 
> @PLauGE My point was you went from criticising the Islamic ideology to:
> 
> ...


False narrative?lol. Calm down Stephen Fry.


----------



## Pointer21 (Feb 21, 2015)

dann19900 said:


> laugh out loud, do you honestly think they're as many white paedos as there are muslim ones? In real life? Do you hear about many white paedo rings, groups of mates abusing little girls? Seems a muslim thing to me. Not hard to see where it comes from either is it lol


 Sorry but this is silly. The catholic church and its various institutions have been responsible for immeasurable amounts of pedophilia, rape and abuse. Western Europe has one of the highest child abuse and sexual abuse statistics, mostly due to the obvious racial make up of western Europe, by white people.

There are huge amounts of rape and child abuse in all countries and to try and act as though there is a racial component or national component to it is wrong.


----------



## EpicSquats (Mar 29, 2014)

FelonE said:


> False narrative?lol. Calm down Stephen Fry.


Judging by the guy's avatar he clearly thinks he's an intellectual and probably sniffs his own farts.


----------



## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

EpicSquats said:


> Judging by the guy's avatar he clearly thinks he's an intellectual and probably sniffs his own farts.


Some people try to hard lol


----------



## RocoElBurn (May 31, 2010)

It's simple. We are just animals that can comprehend ourselves in the universe(nothing more). There are bullsh!t religions that support(but not limited to) homophobia, sexism, and in some cases peadophilia. And there is science, study, and dare I say, common sense that shows this for what it should be quite clearly seen as, B0LL0CKS- the construct of man(one who is incoherent, power hungry and wants all to be used for his gratification and/or wealth benefit).

I have no time for f*cking morons who have to feel special in the grand scheme. They have shown they are weak minded(and "impressionable"), and they only get away with this as we have compassion for other human life(in a way other animals have not evolved), but I would happily flick the off switch on all fundamental religious persons who refuse to keep it to themselves and wait out meeting the maker in peace and quiet.


----------



## PLauGE (Oct 17, 2010)

from past experience one does do something and the other do not, if that makes me racist so be it

Theres thousands of muslim pedos in rotherham town, living among other muslims happily, if there was one white nonse on my estate i assure you they wouldnt last two minutes

Thats a fact, and its same all over the country


----------



## Pointer21 (Feb 21, 2015)

EpicSquats said:


> Judging by the guy's avatar he clearly thinks he's an intellectual and probably sniffs his own farts.


The ad hominem, the clear sign someone has no legitimate way to dismiss an opposing idea.


----------



## dann19900 (Dec 29, 2012)

Pointer21 said:


> Sorry but this is silly. The catholic church and its various institutions have been responsible for immeasurable amounts of pedophilia, rape and abuse. Western Europe has one of the highest child abuse and sexual abuse statistics, mostly due to the obvious racial make up of western Europe, by white people.
> 
> There are huge amounts of rape and child abuse in all countries and to try and act as though there is a racial component or national component to it is wrong.


I'm not great with religion but I'm a bit special with stats. The amount of groups being caught in paedophile rings don't compare white people when muslims are such a small portion of our population lol. Not even close


----------



## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

Pointer21 said:


> The ad hominem, the clear sign someone has no legitimate way to dismiss an opposing idea.


Briefcase W4nker- You


----------



## Pointer21 (Feb 21, 2015)

PLauGE said:


> from past experience one does do something and the other do not, if that makes me racist so be it
> 
> Theres thousands of muslim pedos in rotherham town, living among other muslims happily, if there was one white nonse on my estate i assure you they wouldnt last two minutes
> 
> Thats a fact, and its same all over the country


 Most white pedophiles don't suffer vigilante justice, you are being hysterical. By that standard most white pedophiles live happily amongst other whites, this means most white people support pedophilia. This is so juvenile it beggars beliefs people with internet access and free education could actually have these thought processes.


----------



## PLauGE (Oct 17, 2010)

Pointer21 said:


> Most white pedophiles don't suffer vigilante justice, you are being hysterical. By that standard most white pedophiles live happily amongst other whites, this means most white people support pedophilia. This is so juvenile it beggars beliefs people with internet access and free education could actually have these thought processes.


Not sure what sort of area you live, but i assure you if a white nonse is outed in the village i live hes soon shipped out for there own safety, sure most towns / cities are the same, nobody likes a nonse, apart from maybe the muzzies that believe in that sh1t


----------



## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

Pointer21 said:


> Most white pedophiles don't suffer vigilante justice, you are being hysterical. By that standard most white pedophiles live happily amongst other whites, this means most white people support pedophilia. This is so juvenile it beggars beliefs people with internet access and free education could actually have these thought processes.


Dunno where you live but ain't no paedos living happily round my ways son.


----------



## Pointer21 (Feb 21, 2015)

PLauGE said:


> Not sure what sort of area you live, but i assure you if a white nonse is outed in the village i live hes soon shipped out for there own safety, sure most towns / cities are the same, nobody likes a nonse, apart from maybe the muzzies that believe in that sh1t


 You are assuming the Asian community knew who the nonces were. Most nonces are not known by the general public, especially not organised rings. Last year the police busted a ring of pedophiles who were white, guess what? None of them were publicly known nonces which is how they operated.


----------



## EpicSquats (Mar 29, 2014)

Pointer21 said:


> The ad hominem, the clear sign someone has no legitimate way to dismiss an opposing idea.


Pretty sure you dropped your guts and had a good sniff straight after typing that.


----------



## PLauGE (Oct 17, 2010)

Pointer21 said:


> You are assuming the Asian community knew who the nonces were. Most nonces are not known by the general public, especially not organised rings. Last year the police busted a ring of pedophiles who were white, guess what? None of them were publicly known nonces which is how they operated.


Im from rotherham that has a population of around 250k, 1400 young girls were raped repeatedly by muslims, muslims make up for a little amount of that 250k, they know there brothers, cousins, uncles, fathers, even grandads are doing it, they just chose to stick together through it, typical pedo gang,


----------



## dann19900 (Dec 29, 2012)

Pointer21 said:


> You are assuming the Asian community knew who the nonces were. Most nonces are not known by the general public, especially not organised rings. Last year the police busted a ring of pedophiles who were white, guess what? None of them were publicly known nonces which is how they operated.


But as I'm sure you know muslims are allowed to marry when a girl hits puberty. Its still widespread in countries like Pakistan etc so hence them being a far larger amount paedophiles in this country. Heres a quote for you:

Earlier this month Pakistan's Council of Islamic Ideology issued a statement criticizing current laws forbidding child marriage. The Council said that children should be allowed to get married once they reach puberty under Islamic law.


----------



## Tomahawk (Dec 24, 2014)

zak007 said:


> You ovbiously didn't read well enough, there are many facts in the quran that science found out thousands of years later
> 
> All other books are full of filthy words and contradictions.
> 
> ...


Bro you are repeating the bog-standard things that every muslim child is taught to repeat. I've been there, I've heard these too; I used to be like you as well. When opposed, muslims are trained to respond with "The Quran is Islam's miracle. Islam is the last religion and therefore God made the Quran an eternal miracle to prove the existence of God". When asked to explain why the Quran is miraculous, the taught responses are "There are mathematical patterns", and "There are scientific and historical predictions"

Can you please provide evidence to back these claims that you made:

1. What part of the Quran could not have been written by a man 1400 years ago?

2. What did the Quran predict that was discovered "thousands of years" later?

One of the common "predictions" passages is the statement of "Rome won" and the claim is that it's a miracle that the Quran predicted the outcome of some specific battle. But Rome fought hundreds of battles, it won some, and lost some. This is not a prediction.

The other common one is the the one where the sun and the moon and the stars are said to be "orbiting" or floating around. How is this scientific? Anyone that observes the sun and moon for a few days will notice that they follow circular patterns in the sky. Nowhere does it say for example that the earth orbits the sun.

In fact there are places in the Quran which are scientifically inaccurate. For example, it is stated in 86:5-7 that "man is created from a drop that is emitted from between the backbone and ribs", suggesting that sperm is created in the chest.


----------



## zak007 (Nov 12, 2011)

EpicSquats said:


> Islam is man made.





banzi said:


> Oxymoron of the month goes to.....


prove it? Ok how was man made? Isit not miraculous how the human body is made? How all our functions are made? How parts of the body rely on others?

Were we seriously just made this way out of thin air? Take a moment and think with a clear heart. Who could have made such a perfect species?

Lets take one example, from this supposed man made book. So for those who don't know the story of the pharoh ramasses II it is in the picture below:

View attachment 166866


Note I'll explain this again. As after this there you will have no explanation to this.

View attachment 166867


View attachment 166868


View attachment 166869


SO WHAT IS THE SECRET TO THE PERSERVATION OF THIS BODY? THERE MUST BE SOMETHING.......

View attachment 166870


And the last pic:

View attachment 166871


I believe they call that case closed.


----------



## zak007 (Nov 12, 2011)

MissMartinez said:


> @zak007what do you think about what Richard dawkings has to say on the matter of Gods? Have you ever watched a documentary on him?


Funny that, I just watched him the other day first I've heard of him and his interview with a person about god is a very good one. However as is life that there is a balance of good and bad, rich and poor etc etc.

I haven't had time to sit and watch a full lecture but will do so during the weekend. What's your opinion about him


----------



## zak007 (Nov 12, 2011)

Carlsandman said:


> Take your preaching somewhere else, fvck all religion, scourge of mankind.


If people criticise, I will defend it. Simple it's not preaching. Someone calls bullsh1t I call bullsh1t to them.


----------



## EpicSquats (Mar 29, 2014)

zak007 said:


> prove it? Ok how was man made? Isit not miraculous how the human body is made? How all our functions are made? How parts of the body rely on others?
> 
> Were we seriously just made this way out of thin air? Take a moment and think with a clear heart. Who could have made such a perfect species?
> 
> ...


Who wrote the quran Einstein? God or a human?


----------



## zak007 (Nov 12, 2011)

Pointer21 said:


> From the Hadith:
> 
> Volume 8, Book 82, Number 816:
> 
> ...


Good, I like a challenge. Will bump this for later I will reply though but I need to eat first :laugh:


----------



## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

zak007 said:


> prove it? Ok how was man made? Isit not miraculous how the human body is made? How all our functions are made? How parts of the body rely on others?
> 
> Were we seriously just made this way out of thin air? Take a moment and think with a clear heart. Who could have made such a perfect species?
> 
> ...


So something was written in a book and coincidentally it was true and thats case closed?????

Are you familiar with the prophecies of Nostradamus?

He made over 600 prophecies do you know how many came true?


----------



## zak007 (Nov 12, 2011)

dann19900 said:


> laugh out loud, do you honestly think they're as many white paedos as there are muslim ones? In real life? Do you hear about many white paedo rings, groups of mates abusing little girls? Seems a muslim thing to me. Not hard to see where it comes from either is it lol


Who traffic woman? Isit muslims? Mostly not. If you actual look at the figures muslims make up a very small proportion of peados or sexual abusers. The only difference is when a white gang is working as a peado ring they are a peado, when it is muslims its a "muslim grooming gang" and all over the news so you are brainwashed. Go and look at official figures for sexually related offences.


----------



## zak007 (Nov 12, 2011)

Tomahawk said:


> Bro you are repeating the bog-standard things that every muslim child is taught to repeat. I've been there, I've heard these too; I used to be like you as well. When opposed, muslims are trained to respond with "The Quran is Islam's miracle. Islam is the last religion and therefore God made the Quran an eternal miracle to prove the existence of God". When asked to explain why the Quran is miraculous, the taught responses are "There are mathematical patterns", and "There are scientific and historical predictions"
> 
> Can you please provide evidence to back these claims that you made:
> 
> ...


that verse you quoted is wrong, it said in the stomach not the chest lol. See my latest post on the pharoh.


----------



## zak007 (Nov 12, 2011)

EpicSquats said:


> Who wrote the quran Einstein? God or a human?


QURAN: Chapter 4, Verse 82: "Do they not consider (ponder) on the Quran? If it had been from anyone except Allah, they would surely have found in it much discrepency (contradictions)."

Still unsure or doubtful? Quran is the word of Allah. Allah challenges to His creations:

Chapter 2, Verses 23 & 24: "And if you are in doubt as to what We have revealed to our servant, Then produce a Chapter like thereunto; And call your witnesses or helpers besides Allah, If you are true. But if you cannot, and surely you cannot, Then fear the fire Whose fuel is men and stones, Which is prepared for those who reject."

It is written in the quran. If it is untrue why not produce a chapter like it? Without any contradiction with predictions?


----------



## zak007 (Nov 12, 2011)

banzi said:


> So something was written in a book and coincidentally it was true and thats case closed?????
> 
> Are you familiar with the prophecies of Nostradamus?
> 
> He made over 600 prophecies do you know how many came true?


coincidently? yeah ok. Nostradmus was a false prophet, see quran. 30 of them will come claiming to be god's prophet. Read through history and you'll see 24 have came and gone.


----------



## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

zak007 said:


> QURAN: Chapter 4, Verse 82: "Do they not consider (ponder) on the Quran? If it had been from anyone except Allah, they would surely have found in it much discrepency (contradictions)."
> 
> Still unsure or doubtful? Quran is the word of Allah. Allah challenges to His creations:
> 
> ...


Do you have evidence God wrote the Quran

If so , present it now or bow out, you are embarrassing yourself.


----------



## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

zak007 said:


> coincidently? yeah ok. Nostradmus was a false prophet, see quran. 30 of them will come claiming to be god's prophet. Read through history and you'll see 24 have came and gone.


Doesnt the Bible mention false prophets?


----------



## zak007 (Nov 12, 2011)

Fs so many posts to reply to!

I'll be back later 

View attachment 166872


----------



## zak007 (Nov 12, 2011)

banzi said:


> Do you have evidence God wrote the Quran
> 
> If so , present it now or bow out, you are embarrassing yourself.





banzi said:


> Doesnt the Bible mention false prophets?


Ok explain how the pharo's body could be perserved after being in the sea for 3000 years and how if man wrote the quran how the man would know?

I haven't studied that much into the bible


----------



## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

zak007 said:


> Ok explain how the pharo's body could be perserved after being in the sea for 3000 years and how if man wrote the quran how the man would know?
> 
> I haven't studied that much into the bible


Theres nothing to explain.

How do you know it was in the sea for 3000 years?


----------



## zak007 (Nov 12, 2011)

stop cherry picking points people.

In a discussion we answer each others points.

SO..... HOW COULD THE PHAROS BODY BE PERSERVED SO WELL? WHEN IT WAS IN THE SEA IT IS NOT POSSIBLE EVEN SCEINTIFICALLY.

NEXT....HOW COULD A HUMAN BODY BE MADE IN SUCH A PERFECT WAY? WHO MADE US? THINK OF HOW WE ARE MADE. ANSWER THESE QUESTIONS @banzi @EpicSquats @Pointer21 @Tomahawk

@Pointer21 I will come back to your questions soon


----------



## zak007 (Nov 12, 2011)

banzi said:


> Theres nothing to explain.
> 
> How do you know it was in the sea for 3000 years?


It was found in the sea. Even if it was not in the sea ok how could it be preserved so well?


----------



## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

zak007 said:


> stop cherry picking points people.
> 
> In a discussion we answer each others points.
> 
> ...


You have no evidence it was in the sea for 3000 years, where is it?


----------



## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

zak007 said:


> *It was found in the sea. *Even if it was not in the sea ok how could it be preserved so well?


said?


----------



## GCMAX (Dec 31, 2013)

zak007 said:


> Who traffic woman? Isit muslims? Mostly not. If you actual look at the figures muslims make up a very small proportion of peados or sexual abusers. The only difference is when a white gang is working as a peado ring they are a peado, when it is muslims its a "muslim grooming gang" and all over the news so you are brainwashed. Go and look at official figures for sexually related offences.


The Muslim men who abused girls got away with it for so long because the Labour run councils and Police turned a blind eye, yet the story that it was to do with being politically correct is not the full truth, the main reason is because the government and council leaders themselves are guilty of child abuse, using secret courts and social workers to take away children from perfectly good parents. They didn't want the spotlight anywhere near them and now that they are in question, it's time for them to pay the full price for their sins, don't you think?


----------



## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

zak007 said:


> stop cherry picking points people.
> 
> In a discussion we answer each others points.
> 
> ...


perfect?

We cant fly, we cant breath under water, we cant put our elbow in our ear.


----------



## EpicSquats (Mar 29, 2014)

zak007 said:


> stop cherry picking points people.
> 
> In a discussion we answer each others points.
> 
> ...


You assume someone made us because you're a religious person who believes in a God.


----------



## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

EpicSquats said:


> You assume someone made us because you're a religious person who believes in a God.


He seems to be using the Quran as evidence it was written by God because it says so in the Quran.


----------



## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

MissMartinez said:


> I have only seen a little of what he has to say and he does make some good arguments IMO.
> 
> I wouldn't be particularly religious although was raised catholic. I just believe how you live and treat others is far more important than worshiping a higher power in temple/ building. Nor do I think someone with everyone's interests at heart would want to be worshiped and punished if they did not. *It doesn't add up that someone who is supposed to the very definition of good who created everything could allow so much badness and pain in the world.*


Like creating jealous girlfriends who mess up your prep?


----------



## PLauGE (Oct 17, 2010)

zaks on a right bender this weekend, fueled up on booze, bacon and 14 year old lassies


----------



## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

MissMartinez said:


> I didn't say I'd do that!!! I just said I can see where she was coming from :tongue:
> 
> Plus I'd never wind up someone during prep, you don't mess with hunger. *Ask any of my brothers :lol*:


Siblings I take it?


----------



## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

MissMartinez said:


> Yes, *I'm not speaking religiously!*! When I used to drive down home to visit they'd wait for me to get something to eat before asking me a load of questions


Neither was I.


----------



## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

MissMartinez said:


> Lol, then I haven't a clue what alternative meaning you could have gotten from my post!


You must be quite the innocent.

I will spell it differently

Brotha.


----------



## zak007 (Nov 12, 2011)

banzi said:


> You have no evidence it was in the sea for 3000 years, where is it?





banzi said:


> said?


When it was analysed by archaeologists it was found to have contained a large amount of water and salt. I'll find the report I had it previously. Answer my other question though stop cherry picking or I will not answer anymore of yours.


----------



## zak007 (Nov 12, 2011)

GCMAX said:


> The Muslim men who abused girls got away with it for so long because the Labour run councils and Police turned a blind eye, yet the story that it was to do with being politically correct is not the full truth, the main reason is because the government and council leaders themselves are guilty of child abuse, using secret courts and social workers to take away children from perfectly good parents. They didn't want the spotlight anywhere near them and now that they are in question, it's time for them to pay the full price for their sins, don't you think?


The same labour and police that turned a blind eye to Saville, the royals most likley and many MP's in westminister?

Anyone committing such acts should be punished and very severely.


----------



## zak007 (Nov 12, 2011)

EpicSquats said:


> You assume someone made us because you're a religious person who believes in a God.


Well what's your explanation? It is what I am asking for?


----------



## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

zak007 said:


> The same labour and police that turned a blind eye to Saville, the royals most likley and many MP's in westminister?
> 
> Anyone committing such acts should be punished and very severely.


What is the legal age in the Quran?


----------



## zak007 (Nov 12, 2011)

banzi said:


> What is the legal age in the Quran?


It does not state so

You continue to cherry pick and not answer any of my questions.

Can I ask you a serious question, have you ever ventured out of the general conversation section on this forum? :laugh:


----------



## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

zak007 said:


> It does not state so
> 
> You continue to cherry pick and not answer any of my questions.
> 
> Can I ask you a serious question, have you ever ventured out of the general conversation section on this forum? :laugh:


I pm people if they want advice, I just come here for a laugh.

I have nothing really to say about training and diet I cant say in a few sentences, its pretty straight forward regardless of what you might want to believe.

Now, about the age of consent in the Quran, what is it, its quite specific if you read it.


----------



## PLauGE (Oct 17, 2010)

Zak007 what in your eyes is an acceptable age to marry a girl


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## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

PLauGE said:


> Zak007 what in your eyes is an acceptable age to marry a girl


If you follow the Quran its simple

"when they are ready"


----------



## zak007 (Nov 12, 2011)

banzi said:


> I pm people if they want advice, I just come here for a laugh.
> 
> I have nothing really to say about training and diet I cant say in a few sentences, its pretty straight forward regardless of what you might want to believe.
> 
> Now, about the age of consent in the Quran, what is it, its quite specific if you read it.


Ok let's read:

English Common Law had allowed a male at the age of 14 and female at the age of 12 years to marry with consent of their parents. The English Marriage Act of 1753 abolished English Common Law but still permitted previously established marriage age. In 1927, the English legislature raised the marriage age to 16 years for the both sexes.

The U.S society followed the English Common law initially and allowed the male of 14 and female of 12 to enter into a marriage contract. However, the law continued changing and today the marriage age for both sexes is different in different states of the United States. The marriages with consent of parents are allowed much earlier than fixed by statutory provisions in different countries and states of the United States.

Now history tells us the life span of individuals throughout history has changed, I have covered this before in a thread before on ukm.

So I don't know from memory the life span of people of that time, but I believe it to be considerably less than ours now.

So science has found that girls can reach puberty at 9. This has been proved by science. Now lets put these together, many many years ago, different people. Young girls back in the days even in victorian times would be running full houeholds and be emotionally mature.

So my answer? That was a different era, girls were of different maturity than they are now. As you can see in american & british history. As time's went on the age of consent has been raised.

I and every one of my friends I know will marry about 24-26 with a girl minimum age of 20-21 probably. Why? Why not 16? Because girls at 16 and 21 are a world apart in emotional maturity and general life experiences.



PLauGE said:


> Zak007 what in your eyes is an acceptable age to marry a girl


16 is the bare minimum but most 16 year olds are not emotionally mature enough imo


----------



## zak007 (Nov 12, 2011)

banzi said:


> If you follow the Quran its simple
> 
> "when they are ready"


This is the thing, you are reading it out of context. You need to understand the quran to be able to read it and understand it properly.

You still haven't answered my questions about how man was made the way he is?

You move onto other points trying to pull another one and stray away from questions you cannot answer. My work here is done.


----------



## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

zak007 said:


> Ok let's read:
> 
> English Common Law had allowed a male at the age of 14 and female at the age of 12 years to marry with consent of their parents. The English Marriage Act of 1753 abolished English Common Law but still permitted previously established marriage age. In 1927, the English legislature raised the marriage age to 16 years for the both sexes.
> 
> ...


LEGAL AGE OF CONSENT (ageofconsent.com) Age du consentement ? l?acte sexuel

makes interesting reading.


----------



## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

zak007 said:


> This is the thing, you are reading it out of context. You need to understand the quran to be able to read it and understand it properly.
> 
> *You still haven't answered my questions about how man was made the way he is*?
> 
> You move onto other points trying to pull another one and stray away from questions you cannot answer. My work here is done.


I have already told you man isnt perfect, did you miss that post?

Man is the way he is because of evolution

Why is a dolphin made the way it is?


----------



## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

zak007 said:


> Ok let's read:
> 
> English Common Law had allowed a male at the age of 14 and female at the age of 12 years to marry with consent of their parents. The English Marriage Act of 1753 abolished English Common Law but still permitted previously established marriage age. In 1927, the English legislature raised the marriage age to 16 years for the both sexes.
> 
> ...


are you a virgin?


----------



## zak007 (Nov 12, 2011)

banzi said:


> I have already told you man isnt perfect, did you miss that post?
> 
> Man is the way he is because of evolution
> 
> Why is a dolphin made the way it is?


Man is as close to perfect as we could be made, how could we be made more perfect?

How did we come through evolution?


----------



## benno_2010 (Oct 8, 2010)

Must be trolling


----------



## EpicSquats (Mar 29, 2014)

zak007 said:


> Man is as close to perfect as we could be made, how could we be made more perfect?
> 
> How did we come through evolution?


What makes you think man is perfect?


----------



## zak007 (Nov 12, 2011)

MissMartinez said:


> @zak007 can I ask your opinion on marriage? Do you believe it just for a man to marry multiple women and that man is superior to woman therefore having greater entitlements and credability?


No men and women are and should be treated equal, if a man wants to marry more than 1 wife he requires to be a very pious and humble individual who can do so treating each of the wives with equal respect and loving them equally.

The men allowed to marry multiple woman takes into account, many men in prison all around the world and many homosexuals leaving more woman to men

When you take these figures into account and if all the men married 1 woman, many would be left without men


----------



## zak007 (Nov 12, 2011)

EpicSquats said:


> What makes you think man is perfect?


The way our functions have been created, if we are cut we self heal. If one part of the body stops working another counters or another stops working etc etc. The way our hearts beat everyday is magical. I do not for a second believe we were made out of evolution. If this was so why are we not 100 ft tall and superhuman thousands of years later as we've went through "evolution"


----------



## zak007 (Nov 12, 2011)

MissMartinez said:


> Years ago man resembled a cross between monkey and man as we know now. What we are now is through evolution
> 
> We weren't created perfect because over the years we have improved ourselves


Yes men and ape or monkey are 99% alike, one of the two. However how did we progress through monkeys?

Ok imagine this, how many people were made when evolution occurred? When the first person was born how did he learn to walk, talk, build etc? Really does make you think


----------



## zak007 (Nov 12, 2011)

MissMartinez said:


> What is wrong with not getting married? Are there not female homosexuals too anyway and Is homosexuality not a crime in the Koran? (I'm not familiar with the religion I just thought it was)
> 
> All those years ago there can't have always been more women to men nor can one say in the future that will be the case. The Koran doesn't allow for females to marry multiple men in that event.
> 
> There is a part in the Koran that says ' marry of the women, who seem good to you, two or three or four' now there aren't 4 times the amount of women to men so your explanation doesn't account for that.


I will dig up the facts for this tomorrow morning


----------



## zak007 (Nov 12, 2011)

MissMartinez said:


> Over time through trial and error is how I would have imagined. Then as man multiplied they passed their knowledge on so learning was more efficient and mistakes weren't repeated.
> 
> I was just saying how appearance wise man has evolved into a better creature so to speak so man wasn't born perfect, we perfected what we were given


But how did man transition from a monkey

Were we born from monkeys?

I will reply tomorrow morning bedtime for me now, I've been up since 6am yesterday!


----------



## essexboy (Sep 7, 2008)

Tomahawk said:


> All religious theories are ridiculous when viewed from the outside. This is the ironically funny thing about religious people. Christians think muslims are ridiculous because they follow a 6th century pedophile, muslims think Christians are ridiculous because they believe God somehow managed to mate with a human female and produce a son, the list goes on. Both sides believe that some guy built a boat large enough to fit all the animals of the world. The fact is, all religious theories are inherently ridiculous. They only work because they are all designed in such a way as to indoctrinate children at a very young age when they are very impressionable.
> 
> We all think Santa is a cool and fun concept, but really if you look at it objectively, it's a bizarre story about a fat man that lives in the north pole, drives a flying sled pulled by magical reindeer, breaks into everybody's house in the world in one night, and delivers presents made by an army of slave midgets. If you told that story to an adult he would tell you to get the **** out..
> 
> ...


----------



## Archaic (Mar 8, 2010)

zak007 said:


> You still haven't answered my questions about how man was made the way he is?


Go on then, enlighten me.

In our Solar System alone there are 8 credited Planets that orbit our Sun, with many other smaller ones too. Our Sun is one Star in our Galaxy, the Miky Way. There are approximately 200 Billion Stars in our Galaxy, and there are approximately a further 50 Billion more delectable Galaxies in our Universe. All containing a similar amount of Stars, with a similar amount of Planets orbiting each of them.

You cannot comprehend that number in your brain into anything tangible. No human can. It is beyond you.

H2O in our Solar System alone is 4x more prevalent than rock and Iron is. Life on this planet is not a miracle, it is simply the right distance from our Sun, on the right axis to support seasons, and the right size moon to control tidal flow in a non chaotic manner. We would not be here either if the sheer size of Jupiter and its immense gravitational pull. We would have been smashed to bits by asteroids long before now if it were not for Jupiter, and Saturn to an extent.

Amino proteins have been found on Comets/Asteroids - they are literally the building blocks to life. If you drop them into a World flooded with water then that is where life, and evolution begins.

You literally do not understand anything about how Solar Systems, Stars and Planets are formed. This has happened day in, day out for 13.8 Billion years. It WAY beyond your comprehension., and 13.799999999999999999 Billions years prior to your man wrote bible.

We have also been able to detect H2O in the atmosphere of Planets many thousands of light years away. The sheer void of space is to vast to cross by humans or machines at present, not with our present technology - but the conditions to support life are out there, and I believe 100% that the Universe is teaming with life of all matter. It is literally everywhere.

One day we will have more developed technology to explore further and show exactly this. When that day comes it will be the fall of religion, your entire belief structure will be leveled into rubble - or should I say, ramble.....

I cannot express how wrong you are in words, as there are no words to talk logic with an illogical mind. This spec of dust, the planet you live on is not significant in the remoteness sense of the word - And neither are you, Zak. I understand this is something you cannot accept, but I will drive it down your throat every single time I see you try to ram your nonsense down other peoples throats on this forum.


----------



## Frandeman (Mar 24, 2014)

Humans are actually hybrids, who emerged as an offspring of a male pig and a female chimpanzee, according to one of the world's leading geneticist.

Humans emerged from male pig and female chimp, world's top geneticist says - The Times of India

We are halve pig halve monkey ,,, I knew it :thumb:


----------



## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

zak007 said:


> The way our functions have been created, if we are cut we self heal. If one part of the body stops working another counters or another stops working etc etc. The way our hearts beat everyday is magical. I do not for a second believe we were made out of evolution. *If this was so why are we not 100 ft tall and superhuman thousands of years later as we've went through "evolution"*


100ft tall???

Do you realise how dumb you are sounding?

According to you we are perfect and as such already superhuman.


----------



## GCMAX (Dec 31, 2013)

haha this is turning into an ask Zak thread!

Religion will always be around because there is no factual evidence either way on the existence of god. Maybe there is a god but it's an elusive particle that large hadron collider physicists are still trying to find, or maybe it's something that the human mind cannot imagine, another dimension let's say. The fact is, if we ever want to progress and unravel the mysteries of science, we have to stop fighting each other by denouncing materialism and greed, otherwise humankind will become extinct, even before the end of this 21st century.


----------



## Pointer21 (Feb 21, 2015)

GCMAX said:


> haha this is turning into an ask Zak thread!
> 
> Religion will always be around because there is no factual evidence either way on the existence of god. Maybe there is a god but it's an elusive particle that large hadron collider physicists are still trying to find, or maybe it's something that the human mind cannot imagine, another dimension let's say. The fact is, if we ever want to progress and unravel the mysteries of science, we have to stop fighting each other by denouncing materialism and greed, otherwise humankind will become extinct, even before the end of this 21st century.


 Materialism and greed are the driving factors in humanity's progression.


----------



## GCMAX (Dec 31, 2013)

Pointer21 said:


> Materialism and greed are the driving factors in humanity's progression.


You are seriously mistaken, educational and scientific advancements have nothing to do with materialism and greed and everything to do with expanding knowledge in order to be more efficient. Do yourself a favor, throw your TV out of the window and never look back.


----------



## Pointer21 (Feb 21, 2015)

GCMAX said:


> You are seriously mistaken, educational and scientific advancements have nothing to do with materialism and greed and everything to do with expanding knowledge in order to be more efficient. Do yourself a favor, throw your TV out of the window and never look back.


 Believe it or not I don't get my philosophical or in this case, evolutionary Biology lessons from TV. I recommend you read the selfish gene. It makes the case that all philanthropic behaviour is an outgrowth of the selfish desire to have it reciprocated. Please throw out your TV, read a book on Darwinian evolution.


----------



## Pointer21 (Feb 21, 2015)

MissMartinez said:


> Gordon Gekko - 'Greed is the essence of the evolutionary spirit'


 Not quite


----------



## GCMAX (Dec 31, 2013)

Pointer21 said:


> Believe it or not I don't get my philosophical or in this case, evolutionary Biology lessons from TV. I recommend you read the selfish gene. It makes the case that all philanthropic behaviour is an outgrowth of the selfish desire to have it reciprocated. Please throw out your TV, read a book on Darwinian evolution.


I don't have a TV and therefore your comment is worthless. You seem to have no concept of human behavior, try getting out into the real world and you will find that people are much more willing to help each other than you think. Once again, throw out your TV and wake up from your government induced coma.


----------



## Pointer21 (Feb 21, 2015)

GCMAX said:


> I don't have a TV and therefore your comment is worthless. You seem to have no concept of human behavior, try getting out into the real world and you will find that people are much more willing to help each other than you think. Once again, throw out your TV and wake up from your government induced coma.


 Yeah evolutionary biology has no baring on how human beings interact. I forgot evolutionary biology was government propaganda. You are not saying anything. Accusing everyone who disagrees with you of being a brainwashed idiot who gets their info from TV is ignorant and foolish.

Funnily enough if you even read what I wrote I asserted selfishness was the key to philanthropic behaviour. So nowhere did i say humans could not be good to one another, that was my point. You chose to go off on a conspiratorial tangent. Yet again.

Insulting people and making broad generalisations rather than addressing scientific hypothesis people present is bowing out of the debate.


----------



## GCMAX (Dec 31, 2013)

Pointer21 said:


> Materialism and greed are the driving factors in humanity's progression.


Your quote above.



Pointer21 said:


> if you even read what I wrote I asserted selfishness was the key to philanthropic behaviour.


Your next quote above about philanthropy (egotistical, selfish greedy behavior) contradicts the former.



Pointer21 said:


> Insulting people


"Wake up" or "throw away your TV" is a a call to free yourself from entertainment 'reality' and that you have the capacity to do so. A compliment, not an insult.


----------



## Delhi (Dec 8, 2005)

Mankind evolved through many factors but primarily due to survival needs, once we conquered those basic needs we moved onto things we wanted (greed) this lead to wars (massive driver in evolution of mankind) and finally our desire for knowledge and understanding. compasion and benevolence played a part, as did love but not as significant as the need to survive.


----------



## Pointer21 (Feb 21, 2015)

GCMAX said:


> Your quote above.
> 
> Your next quote above about philanthropy (egotistical, selfish greedy behavior) contradicts the former.
> 
> "Wake up" or "throw away your TV" is a a call to free yourself from entertainment 'reality' and that you have the capacity to do so. A compliment, not an insult.


 Yes biologists and other members of the scientific community have talked about this, the mechanism behind human philanthropy is self preservation, this is not a contradiction but a scientific explanation of the phenomena (philanthropy, kindness, mutual aid etc).

The synthesis looks like this:

Self interest - Reciprocal philanthropy - safer environment.

Also selfishness has nothing to do with ego in evolutionary terms, it is about the preservation and passing on of genes, which is the root of all of our behaviours, being animals subjects to biological reproduction and life.

The Selfish Gene - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## Pointer21 (Feb 21, 2015)

MissMartinez said:


> i could be wrong but i think he meant that greed drives a lot of people to better themselves, create new things and ideas as that typically ends up with a nice monetary payoff. I think the second part relates to people who do philanthropy work get something out of doing it so its not purely selfless. It might make them feel better by helping others which isnt truly selfless given they derive a benefit from it....
> 
> I may be wrong but that was my interpretation.


 There are many examples of selfish altruism.

One could be me seeing how attractive Miss Martinez is, being super nice to her and fixing her broken down car for free, hoping to use my altruistic behaviour to advance my chances of mating with her and passing on my genes, a biological urge we have.

This is just one minute example of what biologists mean when they talk about reciprocal altruism and the selfish gene.


----------



## jimbo83 (Feb 7, 2014)

Hope these girls meet a messy end!


----------



## dann19900 (Dec 29, 2012)

zak007 said:


> It does not state so
> 
> You continue to cherry pick and not answer any of my questions.


It says puberty countless times, do you agree with sleeping with 12 year olds? If no you're not a muslim lol


----------



## Tomahawk (Dec 24, 2014)

zak007 said:


> No men and women are and should be treated equal, if a man wants to marry more than 1 wife he requires to be a very pious and humble individual who can do so treating each of the wives with equal respect and loving them equally.
> 
> The men allowed to marry multiple woman takes into account, many men in prison all around the world and many homosexuals leaving more woman to men
> 
> When you take these figures into account and if all the men married 1 woman, many would be left without men


That's not true anymore. This is a common justification saying that allowing men to marry more than one woman is for the benefit of the women, but it simply is not true.


----------



## Tomahawk (Dec 24, 2014)

zak007 said:


> The way our functions have been created, if we are cut we self heal. If one part of the body stops working another counters or another stops working etc etc. The way our hearts beat everyday is magical. I do not for a second believe we were made out of evolution. If this was so why are we not 100 ft tall and superhuman thousands of years later as we've went through "evolution"


We are not 100ft tall because mathematics.

As an animal scales in size, its volume increases cubically, whilst its surface area and muscle strength increases quadratically. Consequently, the larger you get, the slower and less agile you become. You also require more food which in turn requires more energy to chase. Therefore there is a trade-off between the physical advantages of being larger, and the inevitable inefficiencies that arise.

Also if you believe humans are perfect why didn't God make us 100ft tall?


----------



## Tomahawk (Dec 24, 2014)

zak007 said:


> that verse you quoted is wrong, it said in the stomach not the chest lol. See my latest post on the pharoh.


Stomach or chest, both are scientifically wrong.

I looked into the pharoah thing, and I was going to write something about it, but these guys have already done so: Islamic Prophecies: The preservation of Pharaoh's body - WikiIslam

You never answered my question: What was said in the Quran that was discovered thousands of years later? (Mummified remains of a dead body are not specific enough to count as legitimate predictions)


----------



## Harry Axe Wound (Jul 1, 2013)

zak007 said:


> The way our functions have been created, if we are cut we self heal. If one part of the body stops working another counters or another stops working etc etc. The way our hearts beat everyday is magical. I do not for a second believe we were made out of evolution. If this was so why are we not 100 ft tall and superhuman thousands of years later as we've went through "evolution"


Karl Pilkington?


----------



## Huntingground (Jan 10, 2010)

BBC News - Missing Syria girls' families demand police apology


----------



## b0t13 (Jan 3, 2013)

Some of the points Zak makes are the exact same answers I've had from muslims, it's a shame they are all brainwashed the same way as logic doesn't sink in when you explain, also there's something very wrong with the brainwashing and schooling in science as no muslims understands the concepts of evolution! They either blank out in school or have counter argument rubbish drilled into them from mosques etc when learning it whilst young to never fully understand it,

I once spent 2 hours trying to educate a Muslim preacher in Manchester, but you only get so far and when u make a point they don't understand/can't answer there face goes blank and they change the subject,

And to keep the convo going here's a question for you Zak,

If being muslims is the proper way of life from God, why is the scientific western side of the world so far advanced and much less killing compared to 3rd world goat farming Muslim country's with mass murder and rape? Surely God wouldn't allow that to happen? Seems abit unbalanced


----------



## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

> If being muslims is the proper way of life from God, why is the scientific western side of the world so far advanced and much less killing compared to 3rd world goat farming Muslim country's with mass murder and rape? Surely God wouldn't allow that to happen? Seems abit unbalanced


Why would you assume God is pro science?


----------



## b0t13 (Jan 3, 2013)

banzi said:


> Why would you assume God is pro science?


It's logical, why would God want us to stay like the 3rd world and mass murder each other, then again nothing with religion is logical!

At least we would be killing each other in his name! EGO boost ftw..


----------



## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

b0t13 said:


> It's logical, why would God want us to stay like the 3rd world and mass murder each other, then again nothing with religion is logical!
> 
> At least we would be killing each other in his name! EGO boost ftw..


As we develop we design better and more efficient ways of killing people.

Is that what you think God wants?

Logical when it comes to God???


----------



## megatron (Apr 21, 2004)

God is so awesome he made cancer and peados....

Nice one god, well played


----------



## Pointer21 (Feb 21, 2015)

I have been thinking about this particular case and I have to say I think there is a case to be made about these girls being victims and innocent and impressionable.

They were 15 and 16 respectively, this is a very immature and exponentially polarising time for young people. I am betting many of us at 16 identified as communists, nationalists, fascists, with a gang, with an area code, had completely different outlooks and mindsets than we do now, worlds apart.

People can not be held accountable for silly decisions they made when they were just in their teenage years. A great example being Mark Whaleberg who was convicted of a hate crime as a teenager, others would be George Orwell whose support and participation in colonial policing as a very young man were the polar opposite of his later Anarchistic and socialist views, eventually going to fight for the POUM.

An even better example is Maajid Nawaz, former member of Hizb ut-Tahrir, was imprisoned with the founders of the Muslim Brotherhood and wanted to impose Sharia over the globe via AlQaeda style terrorism, he has since turned his entire world view around, shown insane bravery by supporting apostates in Muslim nations, founded an organisation that actually goes on the ground in places like Pakistan and combats fundamentalism, is incredibly open minded and liberal and is a member of the liberal democrats.

The difference between these girls and most rebelling British kids is that when we were going through our far left phase or far right phase or criminal phase or whatever, we had no real outlets, most of us, to do anything stupid and monumental enough to destroy our lives. These girls had that opportunity.

I can't find it in myself to condemn these girls because I was a 15 year old and I know people who are currently that age and it really is a point in your life where you are not fully developed as a person yet.


----------



## barsnack (Mar 12, 2011)

megatron said:


> God is so awesome he made cancer and peados....
> 
> Nice one god, well played


God didn't create Paedo's, the BBC did....everyone knows that


----------



## Frandeman (Mar 24, 2014)

barsnack said:


> God didn't create Paedo's, the BBC did....everyone knows that


Thou was the church...


----------



## Pointer21 (Feb 21, 2015)

MissMartinez said:


> You get a bonus point for your humour anyway!


 And so the first thread of my web is weaved.


----------



## Archaic (Mar 8, 2010)

Pointer21 said:


> I have been thinking about this particular case and I have to say I think there is a case to be made about these girls being victims and innocent and impressionable.
> 
> They were 15 and 16 respectively, this is a very immature and exponentially polarising time for young people. I am betting many of us at 16 identified as communists, nationalists, fascists, with a gang, with an area code, had completely different outlooks and mindsets than we do now, worlds apart.
> 
> ...


Those girls are well above the age of criminal responsibility, they may be naive, but they were aware of their actions and can/will be held accountable in UK court if ever extradited.


----------



## Delhi (Dec 8, 2005)

Archaic said:


> Those girls are well above the age of criminal responsibility, they may be naive, but they were aware of their actions and can/will be held accountable in UK court if ever extradited.


Agreed...

If we are to dismiss all crimes due to diminished responsibility there would be NO convictions. And yes at 15-16 I had my rebel phase but I also knew the difference between joining a terrorist organisation and spray paining some graffiti on a wall. When I was young it would have been easy to join a paramitary force in Ireland. I didnt because even at that young age I knew better.

Taking that approach means we should never lock up anyone under 18 for anything.


----------



## Pointer21 (Feb 21, 2015)

Archaic said:


> Those girls are well above the age of criminal responsibility, they may be naive, but they were aware of their actions and can/will be held accountable in UK court if ever extradited.


 They broke no laws. We don't send 15 year olds to jail for running away. They have committed no acts of terrorism, theft, violence of any sort. What will we hold them accountable for?


----------



## Pointer21 (Feb 21, 2015)

Delhi said:


> Agreed...
> 
> If we are to dismiss all crimes due to diminished responsibility there would be NO convictions. And yes at 15-16 I had my rebel phase but I also knew the difference between joining a terrorist organisation and spray paining some graffiti on a wall. When I was young it would have been easy to join a paramitary force in Ireland. I did because even at that young age I knew better.
> 
> Taking that approach means we should never lock up anyone under 18 for anything.


 They are not members of ISIS, they moved to the Islamic state to marry Muslims, it is not a crime to marry a criminal, the only people guilty of a crime are people marrying a 15 year old, although in many parts of the world including the middle east, that is not a crime.


----------



## Delhi (Dec 8, 2005)

Pointer21 said:


> They are not members of ISIS, they moved to the Islamic state to marry Muslims, it is not a crime to marry a criminal, the only people guilty of a crime are people marrying a 15 year old, although in many parts of the world including the middle east, that is not a crime.


Yes you are right, but do you think they are not supporting the terrorist movement? Do you think they will not be supplying any sort of intelligence that could be used to kill innocent UK citizens here in UK?


----------



## megatron (Apr 21, 2004)

Pointer21 said:


> They are not members of ISIS, they moved to the Islamic state to marry Muslims, it is not a crime to marry a criminal, the only people guilty of a crime are people marrying a 15 year old, although in many parts of the world including the middle east, that is not a crime.


They defected to the enemy, that (iun my book) is treason and punishable by a death sentence.


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## Ian_Montrose (Nov 13, 2007)

Archaic said:


> Those girls are well above the age of criminal responsibility, they may be naive, but they were aware of their actions and can/will be held accountable in UK court if ever extradited.


True, but it is possible to hold them responsible for their actions whilst also recognizing that they are victims of their own naivety and immaturity. It's like people who fall for scammers pretending to be African bankers with $6m dollars to launder. I feel sorry that they got scammed but still hold them accountable for being so bl00dy stupid.


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## Ian_Montrose (Nov 13, 2007)

megatron said:


> They defected to the enemy, that (iun my book) is treason and punishable by a* death sentence*.


I suspect their fate will be far worse and have the same ultimate conclusion.


----------



## Delhi (Dec 8, 2005)

Ian_Montrose said:


> I suspect their fate will be far worse and have the same ultimate conclusion.


And that makes me happy. Hopefully they will use the experience to tell everyone else back home not to do the same...opppss that's not what actually happens is it. Most likely they will be encouraging other girls to defect the same. But hey ho its all our fault and our forign policy


----------



## barsnack (Mar 12, 2011)

Frandeman said:


> Thou was the church...


BBC was establish before the Church....'Songs of Praise' anyone


----------



## Archaic (Mar 8, 2010)

Ian_Montrose said:


> True, but it is possible to hold them responsible for their actions whilst also recognizing that they are victims of their own naivety and immaturity.


Yes. It is not only possible, but it is just, and right to hold them so.

Also, these girls are not 'victims' - they were not abducted, they joined out of their own free will. To label them a victim, you would also have to label every other religious person a 'victim' on the planet, in the sense of being brainwashed (often at a young age) to believe in such nonsense.


----------



## Titleist (Feb 20, 2015)

People only know what the media wants you to know.


----------



## megatron (Apr 21, 2004)

Linderz said:


> People only know what the media wants you to know.


lol here we go, oh do enlighten us please font of all esoteric knowledge...

Pretty sure IS are a bunch of bloodthirsty, evil cúnts. I'm sure hte families of the beheaded care workers would love to hear your bullshít...


----------



## Titleist (Feb 20, 2015)

megatron said:


> lol here we go, oh do enlighten us please font of all esoteric knowledge...
> 
> Pretty sure IS are a bunch of bloodthirsty, evil cúnts. I'm sure hte families of the beheaded care workers would love to hear your bullshít...


No question IS are absolute ****s - I was talking more about the Girls.


----------



## Ian_Montrose (Nov 13, 2007)

Archaic said:


> Yes. It is not only possible, but it is just, and right to hold them so.





Archaic said:


> Also, these girls are not 'victims' - they were not abducted, they joined out of their own free will.


By that logic, many of the teenagers who fell prey to the various sex grooming gangs that have been in the headlines recently were not victims either.



Archaic said:


> To label them a victim, you would also have to label every other religious person a 'victim' on the planet, in the sense of being brainwashed (often at a young age) to believe in such nonsense.


I would actually label many religious people as victims. Certainly those who belong, often through no choice of their own, to a highly oppressive religion that stifles freedom of thought or expression and one where apostasy is invariably a criminal, often capital, offense.


----------



## Archaic (Mar 8, 2010)

Ian_Montrose said:


> By that logic, many of the teenagers who fell prey to the various sex grooming gangs that have been in the headlines recently were not victims either.
> 
> I would actually label many religious people as victims. Certainly those who belong, often through no choice of their own, to a highly oppressive religion that stifles freedom of thought or expression and one where apostasy is invariably a criminal, often capital, offense.


These girls are not children prayed on be paedophiles. To compare them both is the same context is belittling and crass.

Agree on the religion front though, but you can't openly say that these days without causing mass offence. If you said that in the US you'd prob get chased and shot to pieces. That's a devout Christian for you


----------



## Ian_Montrose (Nov 13, 2007)

Archaic said:


> These girls are not children prayed on be paedophiles. *To compare them both is the same context is belittling and crass*.


Why? Look at the similarities:

Many of the grooming gangs' victims were in the same age range as the 3 girls in question;

The initial entrapment was achieved not through force or threat but through flattery, persuasion and false promises;

The 3 girls (based on reports from others who have managed to escape IS) are going to be treated as sex slaves and will be forced to comply with violence and torture.


----------



## Papa Smurf (Mar 11, 2011)

Likely get new identities paid for by your government and looked after for the rest of their lives, a la Maxine Carr


----------



## Ian_Montrose (Nov 13, 2007)

MissMartinez said:


> Would the victims of grooming gangs not have been desperate for a better life in that where they were from they had nothing and were extremely poor and say it as a way out? These 3 girls lived in England and seemed to have a normalish life?


The grooming gangs targeted vulnerable girls. So the point to debate is whether the 3 jihadi brides had any vulnerabilities or not. I would argue that all people that age are vulnerable to some extent, if only due to their naivety and lack of worldly wisdom. I would go further though and speculate that being brought up within the constraints of an oppressive and backward religion/sub-culture at odds with the wider society possibly opens up a range of potential vulnerabilities.



MissMartinez said:


> Also the victims of grooming aren't going to be responsible for the deaths of innocent lives where as the 3 girls will likely be passing on info that will harm innocent people


They're not going there to fight. The only harm they can reasonably do to others is by persuading girls they know to come and join them. Do we know the victims of the grooming gangs weren't also coerced into helping ensnare other victims?


----------



## Archaic (Mar 8, 2010)

Ian_Montrose said:


> Why? Look at the similarities:
> 
> Many of the grooming gangs' victims were in the same age range as the 3 girls in question;
> 
> ...


What are you asking me, why I do not class a 16yr old (or one that will be in a few months) in the same bracket as a 6yr old girl??

You are trying to paint a picture of these girls as if they were unaware/unwilling. Comparing them to pubescent children getting molested and abused by paedophiles on the internet. That is a degrading slap in the face to the real victims out there IMO.

These girls are not children, and they were fully aware and willing to be apart of the evil murders regime they ran off to join. The only positive thing that could come from any of this now is if they were to be brutalized, It would send a clear message and wakeup call to the other fantasist wannabe terrorist wifes out there from defecting and doing the same.


----------



## Ian_Montrose (Nov 13, 2007)

Archaic said:


> What are you asking me, why I do not class a 16yr old (or one that will be in a few months) in the same bracket as a 6yr old girl??
> 
> You are trying to paint a picture of these girls as if they were unaware/unwilling. Comparing them to pubescent children getting molested and abused by paedophiles on the internet. That is a degrading slap in the face to the real victims out there IMO.
> 
> These girls are not children, and they were fully aware and willing to be apart of the evil murders regime they ran off to join. The only positive thing that could come from any of this now is if they were to be brutalized, It would send a clear message and wakeup call to the other fantasist wannabe terrorist wifes out there from defecting and doing the same.


As I previously stated, many of the victims of the recently revealed grooming gangs were in the same age range as the 3 girls who have gone off to join IS. Now you seem to think I am somehow condoning abuse of 6 year olds.

Let me turn your straw man back at you:

Are you of the opinion that any girls preyed on by the grooming gangs who were 15 or 16 should not be classed as victims?


----------



## Archaic (Mar 8, 2010)

Ian_Montrose said:


> As I previously stated, many of the victims of the recently revealed grooming gangs were in the same age range as the 3 girls who have gone off to join IS. Now you seem to think I am somehow condoning abuse of 6 year olds.
> 
> Let me turn your straw man back at you:
> 
> Are you of the opinion that any girls preyed on by the grooming gangs who were 15 or 16 should not be classed as victims?


We both know full well these girls knew exactly what they were joining, trying to pretend they are victims and completely unaware children is bullish1t.

What has brought you to that conclusion in this particular case? Do you have Intel that the rest of us do not?


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## Ian_Montrose (Nov 13, 2007)

Archaic said:


> We both know full well these girls knew exactly what they were joining, trying to pretend they are victims and completely unaware children is bullish1t.
> 
> What has brought you to that conclusion in this particular case? Do you have Intel that the rest of us do not?


Answer the question.


----------



## Archaic (Mar 8, 2010)

Ian_Montrose said:


> Answer the question.


Your question is retarded baiting.

Answer mine.


----------



## Ian_Montrose (Nov 13, 2007)

Archaic said:


> Your question is retarded baiting.
> 
> Answer mine.


I asked first.


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## 12 gauge (Jul 16, 2011)

Ian_Montrose said:


> Answer the question.


Question being, a 15 year old girl voluntarily gets into a car full of older guys after being promised free alcohol and drugs, is she a victim?


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## 12 gauge (Jul 16, 2011)

MissMartinez said:


> Would the victims of grooming gangs not have been desperate for a better life in that where they were from they had nothing and were extremely poor and say it as a way out? These 3 girls lived in England and seemed to have a normalish life?


The victims of the grooming gangs were living in England not Calcutta, some of them were from stable backgrounds others not, but does that mean if these 3 girls were from broken homes you would view them differently?



> Also the victims of grooming aren't going to be responsible for the deaths of innocent lives where as the 3 girls will likely be passing on info that will harm innocent people


Passing on info? It seems you're scraping the bottom of the barrel in order to come up with some kind of crime that you want them to be guilty of, they cant tell IS anything that IS don't already know or can find out by doing a google search.


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## Archaic (Mar 8, 2010)

Ian_Montrose said:


> I asked first


Think it's safe to say that you lost the debate mate


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## megatron (Apr 21, 2004)

The families of the missing girls are live on Sky news right now...

Blaming everyone for their utter lack of parenting.


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## 12 gauge (Jul 16, 2011)

MissMartinez said:


> It's my opinion just like uve yours, you won't change mine and I won't change yours I'm just sharing my thoughs on the matter. A jury is full of people like u and me. It all depends who most people on that jury think like.


I'm just trying to understand what you're basing your opinion on, its when our opinions are questioned that we can truly see if they stand up to scrutiny.


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## Pointer21 (Feb 21, 2015)

megatron said:


> They defected to the enemy, that (iun my book) is treason and punishable by a death sentence.


 Good job we don't use your book for our justice system, which sounds like how the Saudi's deal with those who leave Islam. Joining the other side.


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## Pointer21 (Feb 21, 2015)

Delhi said:


> Yes you are right, but do you think they are not supporting the terrorist movement? Do you think they will not be supplying any sort of intelligence that could be used to kill innocent UK citizens here in UK?


 I liked your other post above about you not joining a paramilitary organisation and I do understand where you are coming from with the moral condemnation of what these girls have done and what it represents, but claiming these girls are members of ISIS or terrorists or supporting them or have any information that could help ISIS, who have affiliates in all our countries already, isn't really factual.

They have not broken any laws that would send them to prison under our free British legal system. If they want to live under Sharia good, better there than here, the likelihood is though they will come to their senses as most terrified teens in over their head do.


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## Pointer21 (Feb 21, 2015)

Archaic said:


> Think it's safe to say that you lost the debate mate


 You are implying the groomed girls, many of whom were not forced but enticed with clothes, alcohol and drugs, to prostitute themselves to older men, were victims.

You however won't address the situation where girls the same age were entised by ideology to go and be the property of older men.

This is inconsistent. I understand why you would feel different, but to deny they are both equally innocent and vulnerable is wrong. One girl who isn't Muslim who is groomed by Muslims is a victim, yet a muslim girl groomed by Islamists online is not? Why? How?


----------



## Delhi (Dec 8, 2005)

Pointer21 said:


> I liked your other post above about you not joining a paramilitary organisation and I do understand where you are coming from with the moral condemnation of what these girls have done and what it represents, but claiming these girls are members of ISIS or terrorists or supporting them or have any information that could help ISIS, who have affiliates in all our countries already, isn't really factual.
> 
> They have not broken any laws that would send them to prison under our free British legal system. If they want to live under Sharia good, better there than here, the likelihood is though they will come to their senses as most terrified teens in over their head do.


----------



## dann19900 (Dec 29, 2012)

12 gauge said:


> Question being, a 15 year old girl voluntarily gets into a car full of older guys after being promised free alcohol and drugs, is she a victim?


bit of a difference between council house 13-14 year olds making a split second decision to get in a car and straight A 15-16 year olds planning to travel half way round the world to join some psychopaths burning people alive on the news


----------



## Pointer21 (Feb 21, 2015)

megatron said:


> The families of the missing girls are live on Sky news right now...
> 
> Blaming everyone for their utter lack of parenting.


 I have to admit that is ****ing me off.

****ing parents today. Have no sense of responsibility. None!


----------



## Archaic (Mar 8, 2010)

Pointer21 said:


> You are implying the groomed girls, many of whom were not forced but enticed with clothes, alcohol and drugs, to prostitute themselves to older men, were victims.
> 
> You however won't address the situation where girls the same age were entised by ideology to go and be the property of older men.
> 
> This is inconsistent. I understand why you would feel different, but to deny they are both equally innocent and vulnerable is wrong. One girl who isn't Muslim who is groomed by Muslims is a victim, yet a muslim girl groomed by Islamists online is not? Why? How?


Everything you just said does not reflect one quote by myself. You have put allot of insinuations together, taking them completely out of context and accused myself of professing it. And may I add, wrongly....


----------



## Delhi (Dec 8, 2005)

Pointer21 said:


> I liked your other post above about you not joining a paramilitary organisation and I do understand where you are coming from with the moral condemnation of what these girls have done and what it represents, but claiming these girls are members of ISIS or terrorists or supporting them or have any information that could help ISIS, who have affiliates in all our countries already, isn't really factual.
> 
> They have not broken any laws that would send them to prison under our free British legal system. If they want to live under Sharia good, better there than here, the likelihood is though they will come to their senses as most terrified teens in over their head do.


Yes and again I repeat you are right no law at this point appears to have been broken. However we do need to look at the bigger picture here. These girls fled to marry or otherwise support known terrorists. They were communicating with known terrorists online before they went. Previous girls who have went have since been found on social media supporting guns and holding terrorist views strongly.

I am sorry but if these girls wanted to live under sharia law there is ample places they could have fled to. They chose Syria and more specifically areas in Syria controlled by terrorists. They are going over there to marry / live with / support terrorists. So yes you are right no law appears to have been broken BUT we all know the truth here. These girls choose thier masters very carefully and for a very good reason, they support the terrorist views and cause.

Why is it illegal for a man to travel to Syria and return to the UK if he was an known associate of a terrorist organisation? Was not a man recently convicted for 12 years for helping IsIs even though he said he never fired a weapon? What law did he break? Why is he different to these girls?


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## Pointer21 (Feb 21, 2015)

Delhi said:


> Yes and again I repeat you are right no law at this point appears to have been broken. However we do need to look at the bigger picture here. These girls fled to marry or otherwise support known terrorists. They were communicating with known terrorists online before they went. Previous girls who have went have since been found on social media supporting guns and holding terrorist views strongly.
> 
> I am sorry but if these girls wanted to live under sharia law there is ample places they could have fled to. They chose Syria and more specifically areas in Syria controlled by terrorists. They are going over there to marry / live with / support terrorists. So yes you are right no law appears to have been broken BUT we all know the truth here. These girls choose thier masters very carefully and for a very good reason, they support the terrorist views and cause.
> 
> Why is it illegal for a man to travel to Syria and return to the UK if he was an known associate of a terrorist organisation? Was not a man recently convicted for 12 years for helping IsIs even though he said he never fired a weapon? What law did he break? Why is he different to these girls?


 Because the men who went fought and trained with terrorists with the intent to fight as a volunteer for IS. These girls went to be brides, two were underage and none were fighters. I really don't get why anyone would want them imprisoned, how would that benefit you or keep you safer? I don't think it would.

Also yes there are other places they could go to live under Sharia, but those places like Saudi Arabia are just as evil as isis, they execute thousands of people every year, for leaving Islam, drinking alcohol, idolatry etc. Going to live under Sharia in Saudi Arabia is as morally condemnable as going to live under ISIS controlled area.


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## 12 gauge (Jul 16, 2011)

dann19900 said:


> bit of a difference between council house 13-14 year olds making a split second decision to get in a car and straight A 15-16 year olds planning to travel half way round the world to join some psychopaths burning people alive on the news


O.K without wanting to sound like I'm blaming the victims of grooming gangs and just to highlight the similarity between them and these girls, I'll inform you that many of the grooming gang girls voluntarily meet up with these older men time after time, in many instances they would repeatedly sneak out of their homes or care homes in the middle of the night to do so, even if it meant tying bed sheets together to use to climb out their bedrooms, so there's your "split second decision" theory blown out of the water.


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## 12 gauge (Jul 16, 2011)

MissMartinez said:


> For the record i don't suggest imprisoning these girls for fleeing to marry whoever. I just think they should never be allowed in Europe.
> 
> They are aware of the consequences for changing their minds under the law they love so they can deal with the consequences and not be able to seek asylum or come back.


On what grounds should they be excluded from the country of their birth? They haven't committed any crime, yet you would have their nationalities revoked?


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## Pointer21 (Feb 21, 2015)

MissMartinez said:


> For the record i don't suggest imprisoning these girls for fleeing to marry whoever. I just think they should never be allowed in Europe.
> 
> They are aware of the consequences for changing their minds under the law they love so they can deal with the consequences and not be able to seek asylum or come back.


 This would require an insanely dangerous set of laws to be passed that would effectively remove personal freedoms. There are no reasonable grounds to do so. There is a reason we don't pass laws that ban people access to their home nation because they married someone we don't like, it is a slippery slope that leads to dictatorship and oppression 100% of the time.


----------



## 12 gauge (Jul 16, 2011)

Pointer21 said:


> This would require an insanely dangerous set of laws to be passed that would effectively remove personal freedoms. There are no reasonable grounds to do so. There is a reason we don't pass laws that ban people access to their home nation because they married someone we don't like, it is a slippery slope that leads to dictatorship and oppression 100% of the time.


Unfortunately it seems we are beginning to slide down that slippery slope, and the scary thing is the great British public have been whipped into a frenzy as many are calling for such dictatorial measures.


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## Archaic (Mar 8, 2010)

12 gauge said:


> On what grounds should they be excluded from the country of their birth? They haven't committed any crime, yet you would have their nationalities revoked?


On the grounds that they are defecting traitors! They willingly left the UK to support the very people that would love nothing more than to cut your head off with a machete, or your wifes head, your child's head, and hold it up in front of the body. All for use in their depraved propaganda videos. Do you think these girls have not watched the videos before going?

Oh wait, I forgot, these girls are victims and coerced unwillingly into the entire thing.....


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## 12 gauge (Jul 16, 2011)

Archaic said:


> On the grounds that they are defecting traitors! They willingly left the UK to support the very people that would love nothing more than to cut your head off with a machete, or your wifes head, your child's head, and hold it up in front of the body. All for use in their depraved propaganda videos. Do you think these girls have not watched the videos before going?
> 
> Oh wait, I forgot, these girls are victims and coerced unwillingly into the entire thing.....


Defecting traitors? Many white nationalists would describe the victims of grooming gangs as race traitors, would you agree with that?


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## Archaic (Mar 8, 2010)

12 gauge said:


> Defecting traitors? Many white nationalists would describe the victims of grooming gangs as race traitors, would you agree with that?


Why are they groomed? Tell me.


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## Delhi (Dec 8, 2005)

12 gauge said:


> O.K without wanting to sound like I'm blaming the victims of grooming gangs and just to highlight the similarity between them and these girls, I'll inform you that many of the grooming gang girls voluntarily meet up with these older men time after time, in many instances they would repeatedly sneak out of their homes or care homes in the middle of the night to do so, even if it meant tying bed sheets together to use to climb out their bedrooms, so there's your "split second decision" theory blown out of the water.


I am in NO WAY supporting the grooming gangs but there is a point here. Lots of the girls groomed were 15 and as you said choose to slip out during the night.

One could argue they felt threatened and feared for their life, but I also think in many of the cases they did it for the free drink, drugs and thrill of it. NOT ALL THOUGH but some for sure.


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## 12 gauge (Jul 16, 2011)

Archaic said:


> Why are they groomed? Tell me.


That is how they entice young impressionable girls to go over there.

Read this

My ISIS boyfriend: A reporter's undercover life with a terrorist | New York Post


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## Delhi (Dec 8, 2005)

MissMartinez said:


> A threat to national security. And Because in all likelihood they will aid in some manner criminal activity be it recruitment, harbouring someone who was kidnapped in their home, storing weapons ect.
> 
> I'm not saying they are it will but the likelihood is high. I would place the onus on them to prove otherwise. Yes the law places the burden of proof on the accuser but I am not speakin in terms of that I'm speaking in terms as if it was my decision. Under the law without evidence of crime against the country they'll be able to come back, I'm not arguing that I'm just giving my own feelings on the matter. IMO when there is a strong chance of assisting known criminals with the agenda of mass murder then my families and countries safety comes first and for most. People need to learn there are consequences to actions their action to run off to marry or live with known terrorists who want to cause the west harm.
> 
> ...


Great post.

Probable cause is enough to be arrested for. And there is PLENTY of probable cause here. I would also charge Jihadi Johns family also...are you trying to say his family didn't know it was him? His voice, accent and the fact that he was over in Syria didn't ring any alarm bells? BS. I would charge his family with a few charges, withholding information, perversion of justice, aiding and abetting to name a few


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## Smitch (Dec 29, 2008)

12 gauge said:


> On what grounds should they be excluded from the country of their birth? They haven't committed any crime, yet you would have their nationalities revoked?


I would say that knowingly marrying/mixing with known terrorists should warrant a period of detainment and questioning on re entry to the UK followed by some long term close surveillance at the minimum.

What's to say that ISIS aren't training them up to be bombers to then send them back to the UK to carry out terror attacks, or to even come back to be recruiters?


----------



## Archaic (Mar 8, 2010)

12 gauge said:


> That is how they entice young impressionable girls to go over there.
> 
> Read this
> 
> My ISIS boyfriend: A reporter's undercover life with a terrorist | New York Post


So because they are female and 15-16, then they are automatically GROOMED - removing any responsibility for their actions...? Is that correct?

Bollox mate.


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## 12 gauge (Jul 16, 2011)

MissMartinez said:


> I wouldn't marry a know drug boss who was suspected of murder and not expect to be labeled as being somehow involved and most likely assisting on some manner however small like delivering a parcel or burning evidance of a crime.


You're old enough not to be groomed,but despite that many older women routinely get involved with "bad lads" if you fell for a "drug boss" I certainly hope you wouldn't automatically be accused of criminal offences without evidence, what you are calling for is guilt by association and as already pointed out that is a very slippery slope.


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## 12 gauge (Jul 16, 2011)

Delhi said:


> Great post.
> 
> Probable cause is enough to be arrested for. And there is PLENTY of probable cause here. I would also charge Jihadi Johns family also...are you trying to say his family didn't know it was him? His voice, accent and the fact that he was over in Syria didn't ring any alarm bells? BS. I would charge his family with a few charges, withholding information, perversion of justice, aiding and abetting to name a few


Lol, The intelligence services knew who Jihadi John was way before they made it public, in fact I would not be surprised if they were the ones that informed his family.


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## Papa Smurf (Mar 11, 2011)

12 gauge said:


> On what grounds should they be excluded from the country of their birth? They haven't committed any crime, yet you would have their nationalities revoked?


If a dog is born in a stable that doesnt mean its a horse. These girls are not English, their parents aren't english and they are no benefit to england. If they want to go through the trouble of getting to syria to join ISIS then refuse them re-entry to the UK, anything else is an insult to the english public.


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## Delhi (Dec 8, 2005)

Smitch said:


> What's to say that ISIS aren't training them up to be bombers to then send them back to the UK to carry out terror attacks, or to even come back to be recruiters?


But if it did happen mate it would be ALL our fault because we didn't do enough to stop them being 'Groomed'. What a lot of p1sh some people speak, lets see this for what it is. They made a decision, a conscious decision to go join up / team up with ISIS. Fleck All to do with Sharia Law, if it was about sharia as I said PLENTY places they could have went. NO they CHOSE Syria and specifically Isis controlled Syria. That was no accident. I normally am rational and like to see evidence before I make a decision on things but this is clear as day to me. They went to join the Isis struggle...even if just to be brides they are still supporting the ideology and aims. So based on that in my eyes they are also terrorists.


----------



## Delhi (Dec 8, 2005)

12 gauge said:


> Lol, The intelligence services knew who Jihadi John was way before they made it public, in fact I would not be surprised if they were the ones that informed his family.


LOL the intelligence services knew OF him not that it was him. It took them time to work it out and in the end they did yes. But I would bet my house on it his family worked it out LONG before they did.


----------



## eezy1 (Dec 14, 2010)

its way risky letting anyone thats gone over there to join ISIS in any capacity back home

i dont think its worth the risk personally

i feel a little sorry for them as they are young and impressionable. But we have all been there. Some of us choose paths that leave us no way back unfortunately


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## 12 gauge (Jul 16, 2011)

Archaic said:


> So because they are female and 15-16, then they are automatically GROOMED - removing any responsibility for their actions...? Is that correct?
> 
> Bollox mate.


You keep asking questions but refuse to answer why you do not apply the same logic to girls who voluntarily get into cars with men, and just for the record I am of the view that the young girls in both sets of circumstances are victims but at the same time I do not absolve them from all blame.


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## dann19900 (Dec 29, 2012)

12 gauge said:


> O.K without wanting to sound like I'm blaming the victims of grooming gangs


failed


----------



## 12 gauge (Jul 16, 2011)

Delhi said:


> LOL the intelligence services knew OF him not that it was him. It took them time to work it out and in the end they did yes. But I would bet my house on it his family worked it out LONG before they did.


Even if that is the case and I cant be ar5ed explaining why I think its not, how would you prove it in a court of law, or is due process an unimportant side issue as far as you're concerned?


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## 12 gauge (Jul 16, 2011)

dann19900 said:


> failed


No response to the actual point then I see?


----------



## 12 gauge (Jul 16, 2011)

Delhi said:


> But if it did happen mate it would be ALL our fault because we didn't do enough to stop them being 'Groomed'. What a lot of p1sh some people speak, lets see this for what it is. They made a decision, a conscious decision to go join up / team up with ISIS. Fleck All to do with Sharia Law, if it was about sharia as I said PLENTY places they could have went. NO they CHOSE Syria and specifically Isis controlled Syria. That was no accident. I normally am rational and like to see evidence before I make a decision on things but this is clear as day to me. They went to join the Isis struggle...even if just to be brides they are still supporting the ideology and aims. So based on that in my eyes they are also terrorists.


I'm glad you've got fcuk all say in how this country is run mate, and long may it stay that way.


----------



## Papa Smurf (Mar 11, 2011)

If you go off to join an army (as a soldier or a soldiers wife) who is killing UK citizens then its laughable the UK takes you back in if you change your mind. End of. By 12gauges logic if anyone is 'groomed' or coersed into doing something (even joining the worlds biggest terrorist group) its ok and not their fault.


----------



## Archaic (Mar 8, 2010)

12 gauge said:


> You keep asking questions but refuse to answer why you do not apply the same logic to girls who voluntarily get into cars with men, and just for the record I am of the view that the young girls in both sets of circumstances are victims but at the same time I do not absolve them from all blame.


You mean I refuse to retort to ridiculous comparisons that are taken out of context in an effort to bait and score silly points.

You and a couple of other defenders of these traitors are hell bent on the notion they are GROOMED, and free of all responsibility - simply because they are female and 15-16yr, which is absurd!


----------



## Delhi (Dec 8, 2005)

12 gauge said:


> Even if that is the case and I cant be ar5ed explaining why I think its not, how would you prove it in a court of law, or is due process an unimportant side issue as far as you're concerned?


No my point is that you couldn't prove it in a court of law but are you trying to tell me his mother, father, siblings etc did not know it was him? His absence would be ONE indicator, then his voice being another, the local accent and the eyes hidden behind his cowardly mask, his complexion and size, even the way he moved a mother would spot. ALL of them would be easy for a mother to spot. But here you are defending him and his family. No surprise really as you tend to defend all Muslims in ANY thread no matter the crime. Which for me paints a clear picture about the type of person YOU are and what you support. But hey ho feel free to come back at me saying "I don't know anything about you", but I do, I can figure it out from your posts that at times border on extreme views.


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## Delhi (Dec 8, 2005)

Archaic said:


> You mean I refuse to retort to ridiculous comparisons that are taken out of context in an effort to bait and score silly points.
> 
> *You and a couple of other defenders of these traitors *are hell bent on the notion they are GROOMED, and free of all responsibility - simply because they are female and 15-16yr, which is absurd!


LOL see my thread above....


----------



## 12 gauge (Jul 16, 2011)

Papa Smurf said:


> If you go off to join an army (as a soldier or a soldiers wife) who is killing UK citizens then its laughable the UK takes you back in if you change your mind. End of. By 12gauges logic if anyone is 'groomed' or coersed into doing something (even joining the worlds biggest terrorist group) its ok and not their fault.


It was never a crime for someone to go and marry an Argentine soldier during the Falklands war, by your logic we should just make up the law as we go along.


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## dann19900 (Dec 29, 2012)

12 gauge said:


> No response to the actual point then I see?


I already answered it, the groomed girls are younger,far less intelligent and in my eyes theres a big difference between going out with a bloke and going to join a terrorist organization. I don't really even understand what you're talking about anyway, makes no odds if they're victims or not, the dirty asians still broke our laws lol

Can't believe you see the 3 girls as victims due to being 15/16 lol, they're probably far more intelligent/ upto date on world affairs than 90% commenting in here


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## Pointer21 (Feb 21, 2015)

Delhi said:


> Great post.
> 
> Probable cause is enough to be arrested for. And there is PLENTY of probable cause here. I would also charge Jihadi Johns family also...are you trying to say his family didn't know it was him? His voice, accent and the fact that he was over in Syria didn't ring any alarm bells? BS. I would charge his family with a few charges, withholding information, perversion of justice, aiding and abetting to name a few


Enough to be arrested, not charged and certainly not found guilty or banned from the country. Placing them under surveillance would suffice.

Also if they did return they would be renouncing their past teenage beliefs. They wouldn't leave otherwise.


----------



## Smitch (Dec 29, 2008)

I'm pretty fvcking liberal, but when it comes to terrorists it should always be shoot first and ask questions later.

And i don't mean that literally in this case, but why on earth (with even just the circumstantial evidence) would you not assume that these girls were knowingly signing up to a terror regime and not treat them as potential terrorists themselves?


----------



## 12 gauge (Jul 16, 2011)

Archaic said:


> You mean I refuse to retort to ridiculous comparisons that are taken out of context in an effort to bait and score silly points.
> 
> You and a couple of other defenders of these traitors are hell bent on the notion they are GROOMED, and free of all responsibility - simply because they are female and 15-16yr, which is absurd!


I have already stated that I do not absolve them from all blame but at the same time I can see how they are victims of online grooming, I apply that same logic consistently in both sets of circumstances, please explain to me if you will, why it cannot be applied so, maybe I'll change my mind, thus far you have failed to do so


----------



## Pointer21 (Feb 21, 2015)

Archaic said:


> You mean I refuse to retort to ridiculous comparisons that are taken out of context in an effort to bait and score silly points.
> 
> You and a couple of other defenders of these traitors are hell bent on the notion they are GROOMED, and free of all responsibility - simply because they are female and 15-16yr, which is absurd!


 The point is, no matter what you believe should happen to them, they as 15 and 16 year olds are poor girls because they have ruined their lives, innocent because they are not fighters and are merely going to marry Muslims and impressionable because everyone is at 15 - 16. That is what the thread title was complaining about.

I can not think of 3 better words to describe them.

Also I don't think you know what a traitor means, we have never imprisoned people for going to marry someone for their beliefs, a good example would be people who married IRA or UVF volunteers.


----------



## dann19900 (Dec 29, 2012)

Pointer21 said:


> Enough to be arrested, not charged and certainly not found guilty or banned from the country. Placing them under surveillance would suffice.
> 
> Also if they did return they would be renouncing their past teenage beliefs. They wouldn't leave otherwise.


Put them on the watch list shall we? Lol not sure how you see that would suffice. Surveillance lol, 24 hours a day? Pay like £300 a day to watch each? I'm sure they have broke laws, seen a few people who have got 5-10 years for going out there that didn't actually do anything


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## Delhi (Dec 8, 2005)

12 gauge said:


> I'm glad you've got fcuk all say in how this country is run mate, and long may it stay that way.


LOL I do HAVE a say in how this country is run. I get the chance every 4 years to do so...its called a DEMOCRACY. Something your brethren will catch onto in the next 1000 years.

And I am glad people like you don't run the country, your sort NEVER have and NEVER will.


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## Pointer21 (Feb 21, 2015)

dann19900 said:


> Put them on the watch list shall we? Lol not sure how you see that would suffice. Surveillance lol, 24 hours a day? Pay like £300 a day to watch each? I'm sure they have broke laws, seen a few people who have got 5-10 years for going out there that didn't actually do anything


 No one has got prison time for doing nothing, they all had the intention to fight for ISIS and contact with ISIS members, these girls are non combatants.

Also by your logic we should imprison the Royal marines and Army blokes who have gone over to fight in Syria and Iraq with the Kurds, we only imprison those who fight for foreign terrorist groups. As l;ong as these girls don't do that they are not guilty of it and will not face prison time for a crime they did not commit.


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## Pointer21 (Feb 21, 2015)

Can we not keep a debate civil, you can disagree with each other without going to war.


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## 12 gauge (Jul 16, 2011)

dann19900 said:


> I already answered it, the groomed girls are younger,


Many were the same age or thereabouts as these girls who have gone to Syria



> far less intelligent


Lol, there is no way of knowing how intelligent they were, yes they made stupid decisions but intelligent people make stupid decisions all the time.



> and in my eyes theres a big difference between going out with a bloke


So according to you, the victims of grooming gangs were just "going out with a bloke"?



> and going to join a terrorist organization.


You and I may see it as joining a terrorist organisation but I'm sure the girls didn't view that way, for them it was an adventurous holiday.



> I don't really even understand what you're talking about anyway, makes no odds if they're victims or not, the dirty asians still broke our laws lol


The comparison is a fair one and I think it highlights the similarities while at the same time exposing the double standards of xenophobes, yes the groomers broke British laws but the girls who traveled to Syria haven't as far as I'm aware.



> Can't believe you see the 3 girls as victims due to being 15/16 lol, they're probably far more intelligent/ upto date on world affairs than 90% commenting in here


For the 3rd time, the girls do have to bear the responsibility of their actions and are blameworthy to a certain extent but at the same time they are victims of online grooming as well IMO.


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## Delhi (Dec 8, 2005)

Pointer21 said:


> No one has got prison time for doing nothing, they all had the intention to fight for ISIS and contact with ISIS members, *these girls are non combatants.*
> 
> Also by your logic we should imprison the Royal marines and Army blokes who have gone over to fight in Syria and Iraq with the Kurds, we only imprison those who fight for foreign terrorist groups. As l;ong as these girls don't do that they are not guilty of it and will not face prison time for a crime they did not commit.


Evidence of that have we? or are you making an assumption?

You cant call out people for coming to conclusions while make conclusions yourself mate


----------



## 12 gauge (Jul 16, 2011)

Delhi said:


> LOL I do HAVE a say in how this country is run. I get the chance every 4 years to do so...its called a DEMOCRACY. Something your brethren will catch onto in the next 1000 years.
> 
> And I am glad people like you don't run the country, your sort NEVER have and NEVER will.


Oh yes, your vote for UKIP will go a long long way, :lol:


----------



## Pointer21 (Feb 21, 2015)

Delhi said:


> Evidence of that have we? or are you making an assumption?
> 
> You cant call out people for coming to conclusions while make conclusions yourself mate


 That isn't how it works, we don't sentance people because they can't prove they didn't kill someone. I can't prove you are not a drug lord, that is hardly relevant when discussing if I should claim you are one.


----------



## Delhi (Dec 8, 2005)

12 gauge said:


> Oh yes, your vote for UKIP will go a long long way, :lol:


WRONG ...AGAIN mate.

I am a Tory 100% its great to know my vote helped put them in power. UKIP are a bunch of wasters...

I would imagine you being a Liebour man...would make perfect sense


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## Delhi (Dec 8, 2005)

Pointer21 said:


> That isn't how it works, we don't sentance people because they can't prove they didn't kill someone. I can't prove you are not a drug lord, that is hardly relevant when discussing if I should claim you are one.


No you are calling people out for making an assumption that the girls have went over to be part of a terrorist organisation (In any capacity). There is plenty evidence to support this thinking. But in the same breath you make an assumption that they are NOT involved in combat...to which there is NO evidence. So all the evidence supports they have went out to join a terrorist organistaion, no evidence supports they didnt


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## 12 gauge (Jul 16, 2011)

Delhi said:


> Evidence of that have we? or are you making an assumption?
> 
> You cant call out people for coming to conclusions while make conclusions yourself mate


The burden of proof is upon the one who makes the accusation of a crime, innocent until proven guilty.


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## Archaic (Mar 8, 2010)

Delhi said:


> No you are calling people out for making an assumption that the girls have went over to be part of a terrorist organisation (In any capacity). There is plenty evidence to support this thinking. But in the same breath you make an assumption that they are NOT involved in combat...to which there is NO evidence. So all the evidence supports they have went out to join a terrorist organistaion, no evidence supports they didnt


Pretty much what I was going to remind Pointer21..


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## Delhi (Dec 8, 2005)

12 gauge said:


> The burden of proof is upon the one who makes the accusation of a crime, innocent until proven guilty.


No actualy that's not the case. You are PRESUMED innocent until guilty. The burden of proving your innocence lies with you and a DEFENCE lawyer. Get it right mate...


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## Pointer21 (Feb 21, 2015)

Delhi said:


> No you are calling people out for making an assumption that the girls have went over to be part of a terrorist organisation (In any capacity). There is plenty evidence to support this thinking. But in the same breath you make an assumption that they are NOT involved in combat...to which there is NO evidence. So all the evidence supports they have went out to join a terrorist organistaion, no evidence supports they didnt


 What are you talking about? No one, including the police or MI56 are claiming the girls have broken the law or joined ISIS. They are living under ISIS, they are non combatants. Not a single person has claimed they are ISIS fighters.


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## Pointer21 (Feb 21, 2015)

Delhi said:


> No actualy that's not the case. You are PRESUMED innocent until guilty. The burden of proving your innocence lies with you and a DEFENCE lawyer. Get it right mate...


 Yes you are right, that famous British system of guilty till proven innocent.....

You know that is wrong, that is silly.


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## 12 gauge (Jul 16, 2011)

Delhi said:


> No actualy that's not the case. You are PRESUMED innocent until guilty. The burden of proving your innocence lies with you and a DEFENCE lawyer. Get it right mate...


When it gets to this ^^^^ stage, you know its gone beyond a reasonable factual discussion and descended into the realms of "I've got no response, so I will just post some sh1te".


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## dann19900 (Dec 29, 2012)

12 gauge said:


> Many were the same age or thereabouts as these girls who have gone to Syria
> 
> Lol, there is no way of knowing how intelligent they were, yes they made stupid decisions but intelligent people make stupid decisions all the time.
> 
> ...


Common sense dictates they wern't straight A students.

You use the 'get in a car with' comparison

Adventurous holiday lol, man burnt alive. Wakey wakey


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## Archaic (Mar 8, 2010)

Pointer21 said:


> What are you talking about? No one, including the police or MI56 are claiming the girls have broken the law or joined ISIS. They are living under ISIS, they are non combatants. Not a single person has claimed they are ISIS fighters.


What do you think the result would be if yourself, these 3 girls and an AK47 were placed all in the same room together? Would you pick up the weapon, hand it to them and feel safe in your assumptions that they mean no ill will towards yourself?

I think not.


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## 12 gauge (Jul 16, 2011)

MissMartinez said:


> But I also know what I was like when I was 15. I would never leave my family in pain for something I thought at the time I loved. I couldn't hurt those people who took care of me. And to be honest terrorism is far worse than your local drug lord, it was just an example of how people perceive others close to known criminals.


Yes I understand you were merely using the "drug boss" thing as an example and I was merely pointing out that it would be wrong of anyone to accuse you of crimes without evidence, and its not a crime to marry a criminal, and no one should assume that by being married to one you are guilty of crimes yourself, that is not how the law works its not a case of "shes married to him, she must be involved in the cultivation of cannabis" you are not guilty for the crimes of your spouse no matter how bad they may be, can you imagine the ridiculous conclusion of imprisoning the wife/husband of anyone ever convicted of any offence?

Also the fact that you never did anything as stupid as these girls have shouldn't prevent you from understanding how they may have been drawn into this whole mess by older men.


----------



## 12 gauge (Jul 16, 2011)

Archaic said:


> What do you think the result would be if yourself, these 3 girls and an AK47 were placed all in the same room together? Would you pick up the weapon, hand it to them and feel safe in your assumptions that they mean no ill will towards yourself?
> 
> I think not.


Lol, we're delving into guilt by imagined scenario now? This is getting more and more ridiculous by the minute. Deal with facts not bogus assumptions.


----------



## 12 gauge (Jul 16, 2011)

dann19900 said:


> Common sense dictates they wern't straight A students.
> 
> You use the 'get in a car with' comparison
> 
> Adventurous holiday lol, man burnt alive. Wakey wakey


The point is the "get in the car just for a chat and some weed" line is just as ridiculous, but unfortunately when you're young and impressionable you might fall for it. Sounds daft when your older and wiser but teenagers don't think like you or I.


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## Pointer21 (Feb 21, 2015)

Archaic said:


> What do you think the result would be if yourself, these 3 girls and an AK47 were placed all in the same room together? Would you pick up the weapon, hand it to them and feel safe in your assumptions that they mean no ill will towards yourself?
> 
> I think not.


 I think it isn't illegal for a UK national to touch a gun abroad, just like when my uncle went to Thailand and shot guns and posted them on his facebook he wasn't arrested. Again you make no point.

These girls have gone to be Muslim brides in the traditional and fundamentalist sense, they won't be using guns, they will be in their house, all day, everyday.


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## 12 gauge (Jul 16, 2011)

Papa Smurf said:


> If a dog is born in a stable that doesnt mean its a horse. These girls are not English, their parents aren't english and they are no benefit to england. If they want to go through the trouble of getting to syria to join ISIS then refuse them re-entry to the UK, anything else is an insult to the english public.


Oh I missed this one and its been liked by a usual suspect but sad to see missMartinez liking this racist drivel as well.

They're British citizens whether you like it or not, the rule of law applies to all citizens and international law applies to all human beings. Get used to the idea son, cause there's fcuk all you can do about it.


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## Archaic (Mar 8, 2010)

Pointer21 said:


> I think it isn't illegal for a UK national to touch a gun abroad, just like when my uncle went to Thailand and shot guns and posted them on his facebook he wasn't arrested. Again you make no point.
> 
> These girls have gone to be Muslim brides in the traditional and fundamentalist sense, they won't be using guns, they will be in their house, all day, everyday.


No, they wont be sitting at home playing the doting mum/housewife. They will be used as propaganda by the terrorists.

Or do you reckon ISIS just have a soft touch for the English accent? :laugh:


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## Pointer21 (Feb 21, 2015)

MissMartinez said:


> *I really can't understand how they could have been drawn in to the extent of leaving their family and friends for someone online who they know to hate the west and are involved in killing and plotting against westerners.* I could if they had been raised by these people as young children but not when they were raised in the UK and had plenty of exposure to various cultures and are of an age that common sense is pretty well developed.
> 
> I know what you are saying and I know they will be allowed back and not convicted of anything unless something new comes to light but that doesn't change my own personal views is all I'm saying.
> 
> I also don't think the comparison is a fair one. These people are brutally killing innocent people with a view to kill a lot more and broadcasting this fact. The severity of this has far larger consequences and should be treated as such, it's a high risk to allow them back given their beliefs which will likely be even stronger now. It's not a risk I'd personally take for the safety of my country but it's not my decision just my opinion and the current law as you correctly stated protects them.


 A good book on this subject is Majiid Nawaz's book Radical, he joined a terrorist group after experiencing multiple racist incidents, some violence against him, feeling excluded in school etc, these pressures can lead some to wrongly become radicalised. He Majiid is now combatting extremism and is one of the better and more eloquent people explaining why so many are becoming radicalised and how best to address it.

For instance unleashing ****ing hell on ISIS and its affiliates and militarily decimating the Wahabbi movement and going after its financiers in the gulf.


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## dann19900 (Dec 29, 2012)

12 gauge said:


> Get used to the idea son, cause there's fcuk all you can do about it.


Except vote ukip on the 7th of may:tongue:


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## 12 gauge (Jul 16, 2011)

Pointer21 said:


> For instance unleashing ****ing hell on ISIS and its affiliates and militarily decimating the Wahabbi movement and going after its financiers in the gulf.


Unleashing hell i.e "shock n awe" is what led to the formation of ISIS in the first place, I doubt more of the same will change anything for the better, I wouldn't give too much credence to the likes of Majid Nawaz either, he strikes me as an opportunist who's main goal is to milk the "ex radical" label for all it worth.


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## Pointer21 (Feb 21, 2015)

12 gauge said:


> Unleashing hell i.e "shock n awe" is what led to the formation of ISIS in the first place, I doubt more of the same will change anything for the better, I wouldn't give too much credence to the likes of Majid Nawaz either, he strikes me as an opportunist who's main goal is to milk the "ex radical" label for all it worth.


 That isn't really anything more than a skim the surface analysis to be fair mate, however, I was against the Iraq war, I am not however and wasn't against a war on Iraq. The formation of ISIS can be traced back to the siege of the grand mosque and the Ulema granting a fatwa against the rebels permitting the saudi's to use weapons there, on the condition the Saudi's funded Wahabbism worldwide in madrasses and Mosques.

Blaming ISIS on the Iraq war is not really the full story. The U.S and British did a terrible job with Iraq, however i don't support the "it was imperialism" narrative many of my friends on the old left use. Obviously I do think many people profited from the war.

As for Majiid, he is not just in it to milk it, he has balls of steel, works in very dangerous places and helps thousands of people every year. One of the brightest pro feminist, pro democracy voices from the Muslim community.


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## Papa Smurf (Mar 11, 2011)

12 gauge said:


> Oh I missed this one and its been liked by a usual suspect but sad to see missMartinez liking this racist drivel as well.
> 
> They're British citizens whether you like it or not, the rule of law applies to all citizens and international law applies to all human beings. Get used to the idea son, cause there's fcuk all you can do about it.


Im not british, nor do I live in britain but your country has been ****ed up by 3rd world immigration, its bad enough ye pay scroungers who have no business being in the UK a fortune in benefits but bankrolling terroristswho want to kill your citizens is a bit too much, liberals like you whose only arguement is 'your a racist' are heavily to blame... get used to it son


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## 12 gauge (Jul 16, 2011)

Papa Smurf said:


> Im not british, nor do I live in britain but your country has been ****ed up by 3rd world immigration, its bad enough ye pay scroungers who have no business being in the UK a fortune in benefits but bankrolling terroristswho want to kill your citizens is a bit too much, liberals like you whose only arguement is 'your a racist' are heavily to blame... get used to it son


O.K in that case you are in no position to comment on what is good or bad for Britain, immigration has enriched this country beyond imagination, the diversity that exists in many of the big cities is a testament to that.


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## EpicSquats (Mar 29, 2014)

12 gauge said:


> O.K in that case you are in no position to comment on what is good or bad for Britain, immigration has enriched this country beyond imagination, the diversity that exists in many of the big cities is a testament to that.


Did you get that off the back of a Labour party leaflet?


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## Papa Smurf (Mar 11, 2011)

12 gauge said:


> O.K in that case you are in no position to comment on what is good or bad for Britain, immigration has enriched this country beyond imagination, the diversity that exists in many of the big cities is a testament to that.


It hasn't. Ye used to rule the world, now the English dont even rule England, hope this helps chum....p


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## 12 gauge (Jul 16, 2011)

Pointer21 said:


> I was against the Iraq war, I am not however and wasn't against a war on Iraq.


Sorry I don't understand, what do you mean? You were against a war against Iraq before, but now at the end of a long bloody war you're in favour of another?



> The formation of ISIS can be traced back to the siege of the grand mosque and the Ulema granting a fatwa against the rebels permitting the saudi's to use weapons there, on the condition the Saudi's funded Wahabbism worldwide in madrasses and Mosques.


Where did you read that, was it in one of Majid's books? Did he provide any source for such an assertion, anything to demonstrate that such a deal ever was struck? I doubt he or whoever it was who came up with that did.



> Blaming ISIS on the Iraq war is not really the full story. The U.S and British did a terrible job with Iraq, however i don't support the "it was imperialism" narrative many of my friends on the old left use. Obviously I do think many people profited from the war.


Regardless of the motives for the war the end result was the same, i.e a power vacuum in the north of Iraq where Sunni resentment of the shia government which had been imposed on them by the Americans left the floodgates wide open for the emergence of ISIS.



> As for Majiid, he is not just in it to milk it, he has balls of steel, works in very dangerous places and helps thousands of people every year. One of the brightest pro feminist, pro democracy voices from the Muslim community


O.K mate, if that's your opinion fair enough, I beg to differ but that's a separate issue.


----------



## Total Rebuild (Sep 9, 2009)

12 gauge said:


> O.K in that case you are in no position to comment on what is good or bad for Britain, immigration has enriched this country beyond imagination, the diversity that exists in many of the big cities is a testament to that.


That's only your opinion. An opinion with which many people are now feeling that they can openly disagree without having 'racist' yelled at them.


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## 12 gauge (Jul 16, 2011)

EpicSquats said:


> Did you get that off the back of a Labour party leaflet?


I had a feeling you'd like that, come down to Birmingham some time I'd be glad to show you around, I'm sure you'd change some of your more radical views after seeing for yourself what a lovely diverse enriched city this is.


----------



## 12 gauge (Jul 16, 2011)

Total Rebuild said:


> That's only your opinion. An opinion with which many people are now feeling that they can openly disagree without having 'racist' yelled at them.


I'm sure many resent your presence in their country as well, but hey ho that's the way it goes.


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## Pointer21 (Feb 21, 2015)

12 gauge said:


> Sorry I don't understand, what do you mean? You were against a war against Iraq before, but now at the end of a long bloody war you're in favour of another?
> 
> Where did you read that, was it in one of Majid's books? Did he provide any source for such an assertion, anything to demonstrate that such a deal ever was struck? I doubt he or whoever it was who came up with that did.
> 
> ...


 No I did not read it in one of Majiid's books, its basic Islamic history which requires reading a lot to have a firm grasp of rathr than reading anti war articles and listening to immortal technique


----------



## 12 gauge (Jul 16, 2011)

Pointer21 said:


> No I did not read it in one of Majiid's books, its basic Islamic history which requires reading a lot to have a firm grasp of rathr than reading anti war articles and listening to immortal technique


Basic Islamic history? You'd have many Islamic sources for that then, right?


----------



## 12 gauge (Jul 16, 2011)

Papa Smurf said:


> It hasn't. Ye used to rule the world, now the English dont even rule England, hope this helps chum....p


Where are you from then? Please enlighten us as to which great empire you pride yourself on being a citizen of.


----------



## Total Rebuild (Sep 9, 2009)

No, because I don't insist on the natives changing their laws to suit me, I don't openly criticize their way of life, I don't 'get offended' by their celebration of thanks giving or 4th July. I don't march in the street against their police force, I don't protest their returning troops, or burn their flag.

Instead I appreciate and value the opportunity I have to live in this country, I respect their laws and customs, and if there is something I don't like, I keep quiet about it because I'm a guest in this country and have no right telling the natives what they should and shouldn't be doing. Now if other immigrants would just think the same eh?


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## 12 gauge (Jul 16, 2011)

Total Rebuild said:


> No, because I don't insist on the natives changing their laws to suit me, I don't openly criticize their way of life, I don't 'get offended' by their celebration of thanks giving or 4th July. I don't march in the street against their police force, I don't protest their returning troops, or burn their flag.
> 
> Instead I appreciate and value the opportunity I have to live in this country, I respect their laws and customs, and if there is something I don't like, I keep quiet about it because I'm a guest in this country and have no right telling the natives what they should and shouldn't be doing. Now if other immigrants would just think the same eh?


Oh yes I'm sure the native Americans really love the fact that you are so respectful of their way of life.

American Indian Holocaust - RationalWiki


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## Total Rebuild (Sep 9, 2009)

Totally avoids the point I was making and slings completely unrelated 'anti the nasty white man' drivel. It's simply not possible to debate with this level of idiot.


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## 12 gauge (Jul 16, 2011)

Delhi said:


> No my point is that you couldn't prove it in a court of law but are you trying to tell me his mother, father, siblings etc did not know it was him? His absence would be ONE indicator, then his voice being another, the local accent and the eyes hidden behind his cowardly mask, his complexion and size, even the way he moved a mother would spot. ALL of them would be easy for a mother to spot. But here you are defending him and his family. No surprise really as you tend to defend all Muslims in ANY thread no matter the crime. Which for me paints a clear picture about the type of person YOU are and what you support. But hey ho feel free to come back at me saying "I don't know anything about you", but I do, I can figure it out from your posts that at times border on extreme views.


Oh I missed this post of yours del boy, you're actually more of a tw*t than I gave you credit for, accusing me of having extreme views without a shred of evidence is exactly what I'd expect from you, you're a bigot plain and simple, your denial of the holocaust is testament to the fact that your a Nazi fascist piece of dirt, now go fcuk yourself you bald cnut.


----------



## 12 gauge (Jul 16, 2011)

Total Rebuild said:


> Totally avoids the point I was making and slings completely unrelated 'anti the nasty white man' drivel. It's simply not possible to debate with this level of idiot.


Unrelated? Its exactly the same issue, mass migration to North America results in the genocide of the native peoples, a benefactor of that genocide then bemoans immigration into his homeland, but that's an unimportant side issue now is it? I tell you what, if you were that concerned about the "natives" you wouldn't be living off of their suffering, millions of them were murdered so that you can live on their land.


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## seandog69 (Mar 8, 2013)

anyone else think this was a link to pornhub they hadnt seen yet?


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## Archaic (Mar 8, 2010)

SPOILER ALERT*****

Pointer21 and 12,gauge are the same person!! Not possible for two people that self-righteous to end up on the same forum... sucking each other off. They even have similar nicks that basically mean the same thing too, with just the numbers backwards... Busted.

Or it could just be coincidence and they're both actually are two self-righteous mincers who happened to end up on the same board...


----------



## Delhi (Dec 8, 2005)

12 gauge said:


> Oh I missed this post of yours del boy, you're actually more of a tw*t than I gave you credit for, accusing me of having extreme views without a shred of evidence is exactly what I'd expect from you, you're a bigot plain and simple, your denial of the holocaust is testament to the fact that your a Nazi fascist piece of dirt, now go fcuk yourself you bold cnut.


What a total kn0b you are. Big gob and usual internet trash from your sort...an uneducated, inaccurate fool. You have been called an idiot lots on this thread alone, yet it still don't sink in...ha ha


----------



## 12 gauge (Jul 16, 2011)

Delhi said:


> What a total kn0b you are. Big gob and usual internet trash from your sort...an uneducated, inaccurate fool. You have been called an idiot lots on this thread alone, yet it still don't sink in...ha ha


Yes I think I'll go and read that thread where you denied the holocaust for which banzi tore you a knew one and you had to go into hiding for a week or two.ha ha to you too muthafuka


----------



## Delhi (Dec 8, 2005)

Archaic said:


> SPOILER ALERT*****
> 
> Pointer21 and 12,gauge are the same person!! Not possible for two people that self-righteous to end up on the same forum... sucking each other off. They even have similar nicks that basically mean the same thing too, with just the numbers backwards... Busted.
> 
> Or it could just be coincidence and they're both actually are two self-righteous mincers who happened to end up on the same board...


Mate, he is a terrorist sympathizer. Plain as day and anyone can see it. Not only in this thread but look over any thread concerning Muslims and terrorists and there he is with his "Alternate" views. Defending pedophiles and terrorists. And he resorts to insults and name calling every time he is cornered. You got him in this thread, but all he does is divert.

I have said it before and will again and I know I represent the MAJORITY of UK people here. Those girls were NOT innocent, they were fully aware of their actions and should never be allowed back on UK soil. The best outcome here would be to see them on youtube getting treated like the "Princesses" his religion afford females.

Tell you what based on his education level I am not surprised they don't want to educate women, if they did the men would look really stupid really quick.


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## Delhi (Dec 8, 2005)

12 gauge said:


> Yes I think I'll go and read that thread where you denied the holocaust for which banzi tore you a knew one and you had to go into hiding for a week or two.ha ha to you too muthafuka


WRONG AGAIN FOOL

Never once denied the holocaust, I questioned the evidence nothing more. And STILL no evidence has been produced to convince me otherwise. Look at yourself you tool, you are defeated in THIS thread and now need to call names and call out other threads. How pathetic you are....

You are beaten now go back to your book on being a good Muslim.


----------



## Delhi (Dec 8, 2005)

12 gauge said:


> Oh yes I'm sure the native Americans really love the fact that you are so respectful of their way of life.
> 
> American Indian Holocaust - RationalWiki


HA ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

Jeez please don't get banned. I am having way to much fun with you.


----------



## Delhi (Dec 8, 2005)

Question for you 12 Gauge.

Answer in the name of Allah (or god).

Are you a Muslim?

You think I am some sort of Nazi...lets explore that


----------



## 12 gauge (Jul 16, 2011)

Delhi said:


> WRONG AGAIN FOOL
> 
> Never once denied the holocaust, I questioned the evidence nothing more. And STILL no evidence has been produced to convince me otherwise. Look at yourself you tool, you are defeated in THIS thread and now need to call names and call out other threads. How pathetic you are....
> 
> You are beaten now go back to your book on being a good Muslim.


Oh planning a trip to Europe are you del boy, is that why you're backtracking on your denial of the holocaust, lol its in black and white banzi wiped the floor with you on that thread and you incriminated yourself like the tw*at you are.


----------



## Delhi (Dec 8, 2005)

12 gauge said:


> Oh planning a trip to Europe are you del boy, is that why you're backtracking on your denial of the holocaust, lol its in black and white banzi wiped the floor with you on that thread and you incriminated yourself like the tw*at you are.


LOL AGAIN you detract from THIS thread to try and cover up your idiocy and terrorism support. But to play along with your small mind (cause you AMUSE me) Show me where Banzi ripped me one in the thread? As far as I recall I asked him to provide evidence....he had 3-4 days to produce JUST ONE piece of evidence...after 4 days he produced a single document (and he searched hard) that under scrutiny amounted to NOTHING. A simple document that had a few number on it. NO EVIDENCE...you want a try? go for it, show me the evidence....AS I SAID IN THE THREAD, if someone can show me I will put my hand up and admit it. Until then you are WELCOME to go looking for it.

And as a matter of a fact I returned from Kracow just last week where I visited both Austwich 1 and 2, still no evidence I'm afraid. Have you been? FOOL You see unlike you I look into things and the thread sparked an interest in me and I decided to go over and look for myself. I may start a thread on it. It would be interesting reading.

So back to YOU and THIS thread...on a scale of 1-10 how much of an idiot do you look? I am thinking 17

PLEASE answer my previous question: Are you a Muslim? I want to get to the bottom of this Nazi / Anti Sematic stuff you preach about. I could of course dig up some threads and previous posts of yours but it is much easier if you just answer questions here.


----------



## 12 gauge (Jul 16, 2011)

Delhi said:


> WRONG AGAIN FOOL
> 
> Never once denied the holocaust,





Delhi said:


> FACE it the holocaust did NOT happen.


Who's the fool now? I'm beginning to think you're schizo or something, anyway I don't wanna divert from the topic of this thread by bringing the other one into it but I just had to prove you are an unreliable troll.

people can read the other thread if they wanna see you get fisted by banzi.


----------



## Delhi (Dec 8, 2005)

12 gauge said:


> Who's the fool now? I'm beginning to think you're schizo or something, anyway I don't wanna divert from the topic of this thread by bringing the other one into it but I just had to prove you are an unreliable troll.
> 
> people can read the other thread if they wanna see you get fisted by banzi.


Ha ha ha look at yourself, you dont want to use another thread to divert from this one....errmmmm YOU FCUKING DID you IDIOT. No one else went to another thread...YOU did that ALL on your own lol.

And I suggest anyone who wants to read the thread do so. They will see my comments in proper context rather than small snippets... and you may be surprised to know I had PLENTY of people support my stance. Which was and still is SHOW ME THE EVIDENCE. You cant because it simply does not exist.

I have no concern with Jews (or zionists) or Isreal or anything else related to Jews. I DO have a vested interest in teh truth and think we all have a RIGHT to know what exactly happened.

AGAIN ARE YOU MUSLIM?


----------



## 12 gauge (Jul 16, 2011)

Delhi said:


> And I suggest anyone who wants to read teh thread do so. They will see my comments in context rather than small snippets..


Yes I invite them to do so, they'll be able to see for themselves the imbecile that you are.Not that it isn't evident already.


----------



## Delhi (Dec 8, 2005)

Still not answering the simple question I see...

Just like the other threads all you do is DIVERT, DIVERT, DIVERT. You have no foundation to your arguments and you are hung out to dry. In a last gasp attempt to retain some sort of dignity you first call names (Which BTW I could have you BANNED for) then you move to other threads and finally refuse to answer questions.

Best of all everyone can see it HERE in THIS thread.

PS and Yes I could get you banned, you insulted me repeatedly calling me a motha****a, bold (I assume you meant bald LOL), and a plethora of beautiful insults your mother likes. But I wont request you banned, because unlike you I enjoy and support FREE SPEECH. I dont get insulted by people like you, I feel pity for you


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## Papa Smurf (Mar 11, 2011)

12Gauge its fine if your ashamed,we dont judge


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## 12 gauge (Jul 16, 2011)

Papa Smurf said:


> 12Gauge its fine if your ashamed,we dont judge


You didn't tell us which great nation you are from, ashamed of that are you?


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## PLauGE (Oct 17, 2010)

Delhi said:


> AGAIN ARE YOU MUSLIM?


Of course he's fcuking muslim, if he wasn't so busy having the time of his life, nonsing our white kids he'd of fcuked off and joined isis himself by now


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## Papa Smurf (Mar 11, 2011)

12 gauge said:


> You didn't tell us which great nation you are from, ashamed of that are you?


Ive stated on other threads where im from, it has no relevance to this thread. I am an independant viewer here and giving my opinion as an impartial gentleman


----------



## 12 gauge (Jul 16, 2011)

Delhi said:


> Still not answering the simple question I see...
> 
> Just like the other threads all you do is DIVERT, DIVERT, DIVERT. You have no foundation to your arguments and you are hung out to dry. In a last gasp attempt to retain some sort of dignity you first call names (Which BTW I could have you BANNED for) then you move to other threads and finally refuse to answer questions.
> 
> ...


I think the mods are wise enough to see it was you who through baseless accusations around first before I resorted to calling you out for the total and utter ball bag that you are, anyway retorting with "I could get you banned" just proves my point further, you really are a small minded individual, I'm sure the mods don't take orders off the likes of you anyway, if they feel I need to be banned then so be it but it wont be on your say so, you're really not that important.


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## 12 gauge (Jul 16, 2011)

PLauGE said:


> Of course he's fcuking muslim, if he wasn't so busy having the time of his life, nonsing our white kids he'd of fcuked off and joined isis himself by now


You're from Rotherham aren't you? Why haven't you done something about all this noncing of "your white kids", too much of a coward are ya? You've got a town full of geezers going around in flash cars picking up teenage girls at will, and the likes of your good self are sat on the internet giving it the large, grow a pair and go out and put a stop to it why don't ya?


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## PLauGE (Oct 17, 2010)

Fcuk off I'm out numbered 10 to 1 by your sort round here


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## 12 gauge (Jul 16, 2011)

PLauGE said:


> Fcuk off I'm out numbered 10 to 1 by your sort round here


O.K just have a moan on the internet then you *C*UNT


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## PLauGE (Oct 17, 2010)

HAHA


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## Total Rebuild (Sep 9, 2009)

12 gauge said:


> You're from Rotherham aren't you? Why haven't you done something about all this noncing of "your white kids", too much of a coward are ya? You've got a town full of geezers going around in flash cars picking up teenage girls at will, and the likes of your good self are sat on the internet giving it the large, grow a pair and go out and *put a stop to it why don't ya*?


You'd probably call him a racist if he did.


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## 12 gauge (Jul 16, 2011)

Total Rebuild said:


> You'd probably call him a racist if he did.


Erm, now that's an idea.


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## seandog69 (Mar 8, 2013)

Total Rebuild said:


> You'd probably call him a racist if he did.


and he would be entirely wrong to do so

muslims come from all walks of life and races and as a religion, it would be a sectarian act and not a racial one

View attachment 167623


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## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

Delhi said:


> LOL AGAIN you detract from THIS thread to try and cover up your idiocy and terrorism support. But to play along with your small mind (cause you AMUSE me) Show me where Banzi ripped me one in the thread? As far as I recall I asked him to provide evidence....he had 3-4 days to produce* JUST ONE piece of evidence...after 4 days he produced a single document (and he searched hard) that under scrutiny amounted to NOTHING. A simple document that had a few number on it. NO EVIDENCE...you want a try? go for it, show me the evidence....AS I SAID IN THE THREAD, if someone can show me I will put my hand up and admit it. Until then you are WELCOME to go looking for it.*
> 
> And as a matter of a fact I returned from Kracow just last week where I visited both Austwich 1 and 2, still no evidence I'm afraid. Have you been? FOOL You see unlike you I look into things and the thread sparked an interest in me and I decided to go over and look for myself. I may start a thread on it. It would be interesting reading.
> 
> ...


You asked for a specific piece of evidence that doesn't exist, no autopsies were carried out on any dead bodies from the camps.

Seriously, why would they need to?

I have no idea why you keep bringing this up, you left with people thinking the worse of you last time, please dont blow it by starting again.


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## Delhi (Dec 8, 2005)

12 gauge said:


> I think the mods are wise enough to see it was you who through baseless accusations around first before I resorted to calling you out for the total and utter ball bag that you are, anyway retorting with "I could get you banned" just proves my point further, you really are a small minded individual, I'm sure the mods don't take orders off the likes of you anyway, if they feel I need to be banned then so be it but it wont be on your say so, you're really not that important.


No the mods don't take orders from me but they do MODERATE the board and create the rules. And the rules are VERY clear on this matter. I can debate with or without foundation all day long, that is NOT breaking the rules. YOU on the other hand abused another member that IS breaking the rules. But they will only intervene if the victim complains (ie in this case that would be me) or if the overall theme is insulting to otehrs. But as I said i am not going to request you banned, I don't believe in it. I think everyone should have the right to an opinion (stupid as it may be).

And besides it is WAYYYY to much fun having you around to have you banned. Where would I find my amusement...?

It is kind of nice to think that every post you make now and in future is in a small way down to me not requesting you banned. If you think about it that kind of makes you my B1tch LOL


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## Delhi (Dec 8, 2005)

banzi said:


> You asked for a specific piece of evidence that doesn't exist, no autopsies were carried out on any dead bodies from the camps.
> 
> Seriously, why would they need to?
> 
> I have no idea why you keep bringing this up, you left with people thinking the worse of you last time, please dont blow it by starting again.


not me bringing anything up...Twas the Isis supporter.

But just to be clear there WAS autopsies conducted on bodies from the camps, teh difference is that NONE of them died from Zyclon B poision


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## GCMAX (Dec 31, 2013)

12 gauge said:


> O.K in that case you are in no position to comment on what is good or bad for Britain, immigration has enriched this country beyond imagination, the diversity that exists in many of the big cities is a testament to that.


Yes, mass immigration has 'enriched' inflation, crime levels, hospital waiting times, poor education, wage decompression and social isolation but in the end it's all worth it because at the end of the day you get to eat a stale kebab with stringy brown lettuce popping out of it...

...ever get that sneaky suspicion that certain party activists are actively selling their wares here on UKM?


----------



## 12 gauge (Jul 16, 2011)

Delhi said:


> No the mods don't take orders from me but they do MODERATE the board and create the rules. And the rules are VERY clear on this matter. I can debate with or without foundation all day long, that is NOT breaking the rules. YOU on the other hand abused another member that IS breaking the rules. But they will only intervene if the victim complains (ie in this case that would be me) or if the overall theme is insulting to otehrs. But as I said i am not going to request you banned, I don't believe in it. I think everyone should have the right to an opinion (stupid as it may be).
> 
> And besides it is WAYYYY to much fun having you around to have you banned. Where would I find my amusement...?
> 
> It is kind of nice to think that every post you make now and in future is in a small way down to me not requesting you banned. If you think about it that kind of makes you my B1tch LOL


Your baseless debating isn't the issue here, you are well known for that anyway and yes that isn't a banning offence, making false accusation on the other hand is a different matter.

I'm sure the mods would view your throwing of false accusations at me as a much more serious matter than me calling you a cnut etc in response, and if they choose to ban you that is entirely up to them, I for one wont miss your drivel in the slightest.

I enjoy a good discussion but much rather have one with someone who can actually produce evidence and can argue based on some sort of factual basis, it gets real boring real quick when people ignore the facts and just throw their bigoted opinions around and that is exactly what you are about.


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## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

Delhi said:


> not me bringing anything up...Twas the Isis supporter.
> 
> *But just to be clear there WAS autopsies conducted on bodies from the camps,* teh difference is that NONE of them died from Zyclon B poision


Evidence please.

So it did happen then?

I can never tell which way you are going.


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## 12 gauge (Jul 16, 2011)

GCMAX said:


> ...ever get that sneaky suspicion that certain party activists are actively selling their wares here on UKM?


Yes a hell of a lot of BNP and UKIP around here.


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## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

GCMAX said:


> Yes, mass immigration has 'enriched' inflation, crime levels, hospital waiting times, poor education, wage decompression and social isolation but in the end it's all worth it because at the end of the day you get to eat a stale kebab with stringy brown lettuce popping out of it...
> 
> ...*ever get that sneaky suspicion that certain party activists are actively selling their wares here on UKM?*


And some bloated doughnuts may be passing themselves off as weight trainers.


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## Delhi (Dec 8, 2005)

banzi said:


> Evidence please.
> 
> So it did happen then?
> 
> I can never tell which way you are going.


For teh 100th time...did concentration camps exist YES, were the people detained in them subject to extreme hardship YES, were some of them killed by disease YES, were some of them killed from malnutrition YES, did some of them fall victim to execution YES. Did they gas them....NO EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT THIS. You are trying to slip and slide from this which is the view I have always had. And again I state IF YOU OR ANYONE ELSE CAN PROVIDE EVIDENCE OF GASSING I WILL EXAMINE IT OBJECTIVELY AND IF I BELIEVE IT VALID WILL CHANGE MY STANCE. But until then THERE IS NO EVIDENCE (you even say it yourself). The difference is you believe it happened with no evidence, i would like to see the evidence to prove it did happen. Afterall this is a VERY seriopus allegation and an estimated 6 million died from it, dont you think the TRUTH is owed to everyone? whatever that may be.


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## Delhi (Dec 8, 2005)

12 gauge said:


> Yes a hell of a lot of BNP and UKIP around here.


Who, where? I have never met a BNP supporter (Serious)


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## Delhi (Dec 8, 2005)

MissMartinez said:


> Thread was interesting seeing peoples different views and feelings on the topic, the derailment is making it boring now.


Agree....


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## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

Delhi said:


> For teh 100th time...did concentration camps exist YES, were the people detained in them subject to extreme hardship YES, were some of them killed by disease YES, were some of them killed from malnutrition YES, did some of them fall victim to execution YES. Did they gas them....NO EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT THIS. You are trying to slip and slide from this which is the view I have always had. And again I state IF YOU OR ANYONE ELSE CAN PROVIDE EVIDENCE OF GASSING I WILL EXAMINE IT OBJECTIVELY AND IF I BELIEVE IT VALID WILL CHANGE MY STANCE. But until then THERE IS NO EVIDENCE (you even say it yourself). The difference is you believe it happened with no evidence, i would like to see the evidence to prove it did happen.


post the autopsy reports then


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## GCMAX (Dec 31, 2013)

12 gauge said:


> Yes a hell of a lot of BNP and UKIP around here.


BNP and UKIP in the same sentence, do you work for the Socialist Worker or the BBC?


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## Delhi (Dec 8, 2005)

banzi said:


> post the autopsy reports then


I am about to go to bed but I actually can do this. Believe it or not I was in Austwich last week (seriously) our wee debate made me want to investigate further. i spent 4 days over there, I had 3 different guides and seen all three camps. I visited each bunker and chimnea. As part of the tour there is information of the bodies found at time of the allies arriving (red army) and an additional 350 approx that died in the week after. All of these were treated by Polish doctors inside the camps and full autopsies exist. If memory serves me right (I will confirm) there were around 3000 autopsies conducted after liberation.

I enjoyed the visit and found it haunting and chilling. A VERY sad state of affairs but emotions aside the fact still remains. No evidence exists of gassing, pure allegation.


----------



## GCMAX (Dec 31, 2013)

Delhi said:


> For teh 100th time...did concentration camps exist YES, were the people detained in them subject to extreme hardship YES, were some of them killed by disease YES, were some of them killed from malnutrition YES, did some of them fall victim to execution YES. Did they gas them....NO EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT THIS. You are trying to slip and slide from this which is the view I have always had. And again I state IF YOU OR ANYONE ELSE CAN PROVIDE EVIDENCE OF GASSING I WILL EXAMINE IT OBJECTIVELY AND IF I BELIEVE IT VALID WILL CHANGE MY STANCE. But until then THERE IS NO EVIDENCE (you even say it yourself). The difference is you believe it happened with no evidence, i would like to see the evidence to prove it did happen. Afterall this is a VERY seriopus allegation and an estimated 6 million died from it, dont you think the TRUTH is owed to everyone? whatever that may be.


Can't but agree and also I find it amazing/worrying that if you ever mention the 30+ million Christians killed by Russian Bolsheviks suddenly you are labelled as a fascist Nazi anti-semite who wants to kill an entire race of people.


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## 12 gauge (Jul 16, 2011)

GCMAX said:


> BNP and UKIP in the same sentence,


Same thing.



> do you work for the Socialist Worker or the BBC?


Same thing.


----------



## Delhi (Dec 8, 2005)

GCMAX said:


> Can't but agree and also I find it amazing/worrying that if you ever mention the 30+ million Christians killed by Russian Bolsheviks suddenly you are labelled as a fascist Nazi anti-semite who wants to kill an entire race of people.


Yes, i agree with this also...ask for an objective, rational discussion and you are labeled a Nazi...go figure? Why are people so afraid about having an adult discussion about it. What are they afraid of, i cant get why people would not want to know the truth. I am no Nazi, but I would like to know exactly what happened. If they did it, then fine. But I need to see evidence of it. i cant get around the figures 6 million killed but not one body? That don't add up in my mind. Small as it may be to others, that don't compute.


----------



## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

Delhi said:


> I am about to go to bed but I actually can do this. Believe it or not I was in Austwich last week (seriously) our wee debate made me want to investigate further. i spent 4 days over there, I had 3 different guides and seen all three camps. I visited each bunker and chimnea. As part of the tour there is information of the bodies found at time of the allies arriving (red army) and an additional 350 approx that died in the week after. All of these were treated by Polish doctors inside the camps and full autopsies exist. If memory serves me right (I will confirm) there were around 3000 autopsies conducted after liberation.
> 
> I enjoyed the visit and found it haunting and chilling. A VERY sad state of affairs but emotions aside the fact still remains. No evidence exists of gassing, pure allegation.


at least you are moving in the right direction, not long ago you wrote



Delhi said:


> Clearly there are many Muslim sympathisers in this thread and I actually agree that freedom of speech is a fantasy and VERY selective. For example when I say Hitler was NOT a madman as projected by media, historians etc I get grief. *FACE it the holocaust did NOT happen.*
> 
> But that does not give someone the right to walk into an office and shoot them dead. Do I hear the sympathisers cry wolf when cartoons like family guy make fun of christ? Or Jewish faith? Why are you not condemning these publications?
> 
> Fact is Islam needs to grow up if it wishes to reside in a free country it needs to accept fun WILL be poked at it. If you don't like this freedom, go live in Iran, Syria, etc


another few months and you will be on my team.. :tongue:


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## Delhi (Dec 8, 2005)

banzi said:


> at least you are moving in the right direction, not long ago you wrote
> 
> another few months and you will be on my team.. :tongue:


And my reference in that post is directly to gassing as you know full well from the thread. Repeatedly in the thread I said disease, malnutrition etc killed prisoners. The irony here is we are NOT so far apart... I may make a post about my visit. I think you will find it interesting.

While over there I was slightly amused at the history of the gate slogan which is "Arbeit macht frei". Translated in English means "Work will set you free" but it actually comes from old Germanic saying that means "The truth will set you free"

View attachment 167625


Goodnight, and despite having a great debate with you on the topic I do respect you for standing up for your position.


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## bassjacka (Feb 17, 2015)

12 gauge said:


> O.K in that case you are in no position to comment on what is good or bad for Britain, immigration has enriched this country beyond imagination, the diversity that exists in many of the big cities is a testament to that.


Hahah - far from it. Immigration has sent this country to the dogs - we didn't ask to be 'enriched'. The diversity of a city is no testament to how enriched said city is.

To 'enrich' something, is to improve or enhance the quality or value of that something - immigration has not enhanced the quality or value of this country. Granted, immigration has brought some great people and skills to Britain; however the scale at which immigration has been allowed to continue and the type of immigration we've seen, has been more of a detriment to our country than it has enriched our country.

Immigration has changed our landscape and demographics beyond recognition - it's criminal!


----------



## bassjacka (Feb 17, 2015)

Delhi said:


> And my reference in that post is directly to gassing as you know full well from the thread. Repeatedly in the thread I said disease, malnutrition etc killed prisoners. The irony here is we are NOT so far apart... I may make a post about my visit. I think you will find it interesting.
> 
> While over there I was slightly amused at the history of the gate slogan which is "Arbeit macht frei". Translated in English means "Work will set you free" but it actually comes from old Germanic saying that means "The truth will set you free"
> 
> ...


I travelled to Polland in January and visited Auschwitz and Birkenau - truly haunting feeling there. So sad what happened to those people.


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## simonthepieman (Jun 11, 2012)

bassjacka said:


> Hahah - far from it. Immigration has sent this country to the dogs - we didn't ask to be 'enriched'. The diversity of a city is no testament to how enriched said city is.
> 
> *To 'enrich' something, is to improve or enhance the quality or value of that something - immigration has not enhanced the quality or value of this country. Granted, immigration has brought some great people and skills to Britain; however the scale at which immigration has been allowed to continue and the type of immigration we've seen, has been more of a detriment to our country than it has enriched our country. *
> 
> Immigration has changed our landscape and demographics beyond recognition - it's criminal!


in bold is purely subjective.

Britain's economy would have faded to also an run without the skilled immigration.

If you live in London (which still drives the nations economic presence internationally), it would have collapsed without the immigrants who are willing to do the low skilled, low pay services jobs.

This is a fact, not an opinion.

The problem has been terrible management and policies on asylum, which in my option is totally different subject with different issues.


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## bassjacka (Feb 17, 2015)

simonthepieman said:


> in bold is purely subjective.
> 
> Britain's economy would have faded to also an run without the skilled immigration.
> 
> ...


To say that Britains economy would have collapsed without immigrants is also subjective - this cannot be proved and is simply an opinion, not fact. Who undertook these low skilled, low pay service jobs before immigrants did?

FYI, I am not against immigration - I am simply opposed to the mass, uncontrolled and unchecked immigration we have been subjected to.

I do live in London and have done my entire life - I'm only 27 years old, and in my short lifetime I've seen many parts of London change beyond recognition as a result of immigration. Entire towns have become ghettoised by foreign cultures who refuse to or cannot integrate into the British way of life.

In my opinion, mass immigration has been more detrimental than good. As immigration has increased, the following has decreased;

School places

Hospital beds

Social/council housing availability

Jobs

Not to mention the ever-growing anti-western, middle eastern cultures that have been allowed to thrive here.

I'm all for affording the less fortunate a better life, however, you need to have something to offer back. You need to be able to integrate and want to be part of our society, and not form parallel societies.

Obviously the above is all MY opinion, and it is none less valid than anyone elses; and vice versa.


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## simonthepieman (Jun 11, 2012)

bassjacka said:


> To say that Britains economy would have collapsed without immigrants is also subjective - this cannot be proved and is simply an opinion, not fact. Who undertook these low skilled, low pay service jobs before immigrants did?
> 
> FYI, I am not against immigration - I am simply opposed to the mass, uncontrolled and unchecked immigration we have been subjected to.
> 
> ...


I never said anything about a collapsed economy, but other than that a well thought out and mature reply to typically emotional subject. A rare, but welcome think on here.

I think the biggest issue we face is grouping all types of immigration into one banner as it's hard to address.

The mass immigration of low skilled, lowly educated people (not by choice or ignorance on their part, most are just underprivileged) is not comparable to talented people addressing STEM knowledge shortages and the like.

The same thing with asylum. This causes issue from a social perspective, most aren't equipped to integrate into society. It's easier to point the finger, but look at any brits abroad as a tourist and ex-pat (which i've been) and we are as bad if not worse. However the countries we domicile tend to have less of cultural contrast to our own.

I think it's naive and shallow thinking to blame all those things on immigration as a whole and even more to blame the immigrant, who are in most case doing what most of use would do in their situation.

However there are inherent faults in how we have executed a necessary service and most importantly we've left it too long and not taking the initiative in repair the problems created.

However the reason why (well one of them) is the fact we band it into one topic. Which two side fight over and achieve nothing, where it needs to be broken down into a lot more smaller components with their own solutions and strategies


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## bassjacka (Feb 17, 2015)

simonthepieman said:


> I never said anything about a collapsed economy, but other than that a well thought out and mature reply to typically emotional subject. A rare, but welcome think on here.
> 
> I think the biggest issue we face is grouping all types of immigration into one banner as it's hard to address.
> 
> ...


I agree with the majority of what you're saying. Grouping all types of immigration under one banner is indeed wrong, if not dangerous.

I don't blame the immigrant at all, the blame lies with our governement and the EU (but that's another discussion). If I lived in an undeveloped, war-torncountry, and I knew there was some place in the world where I could provide my daughter and partner with a better life away from it all, I'd move heaven and hell to get there.

There is a problem with immigrants/asylum seekers who come from countries where there is a massive cultural contrast between ours and theirs. Far too often we see that people from these cultures are actively encouraged to celebrate and share their cultures and heritage, and at the same time us Brits are encouraged to tone down our patriotism and love of our country to minimise the risk of offending other cultures. I think if we were encouraged more to celebrate our own culture and way of life, and encouraging people of other cultures to actively join in, integration would happen far more easily.

The trouble with asylum is that many of these so-called asylum seekers, are not actually in need of asylum. Immigrants enter the country ilegally, and when they're caught they claim they cannot return to their home country through fear of persecution, death etc. then before they know it they've got a council flat, money in their bank each week and a national insurance number. The fact that they are able to do this has encouraged others around the world to come here and take advantage in the same way.

We should have an immigration system whereby people with skills to offer and enough money behind them to be able to support themselves are welcomed. If you have none of these then you must have a confirmed job placement prior to entering. No immigrant should be offered any form of benefit in their first 5 years in the country - that's just common sense.

I feel we've come a long way from the original subject - apologies OP.


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## simonthepieman (Jun 11, 2012)

bassjacka said:


> I agree with the majority of what you're saying. Grouping all types of immigration under one banner is indeed wrong, if not dangerous.
> 
> I don't blame the immigrant at all, the blame lies with our governement and the EU (but that's another discussion). If I lived in an undeveloped, war-torncountry, and I knew there was some place in the world where I could provide my daughter and partner with a better life away from it all, I'd move heaven and hell to get there.
> 
> ...


One thing I think would make a massive difference is that there was an EU pact that all members had to split asylum (once proven genuine) seekers equally with some adjustments based on GDP, economy situation, land mass and population density.

Asylum should be made available to those that need it, but it's a privilege, not a life time holiday. So long as your safety and well being is protected you should take what you are given and build your life.

If there is a particular country you want to move to, you must build your personal value up in terms of what contribution your provide. Then apply via a work via route which must be fair and respect the indigenous residents first


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## Huntingground (Jan 10, 2010)

Jihadi schoolgirl's father marched at flag-burning rally - London - News - London Evening Standard

@Delhi


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## Delhi (Dec 8, 2005)

Huntingground said:


> Jihadi schoolgirl's father marched at flag-burning rally - London - News - London Evening Standard
> 
> @Delhi


Lol classic eh?

But what we all need to understand is that he didn't MEAN to be there...when he saw the flag burning he was upset and guilty and wanted to errr emmmm ohhhh but errr "I know speak any English"


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## Huntingground (Jan 10, 2010)

Delhi said:


> Lol classic eh?
> 
> But what we all need to understand is that he didn't MEAN to be there...when he saw the flag burning he was upset and guilty and wanted to errr emmmm ohhhh but errr "I know speak any English"


This gimp was holding the girl's teddy bear in front of the cameras, demanding an apology from the Met, which he got, even though it looks as though the girl was radicalised at home and school (Bethnall Green).

Unreal.


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## Delhi (Dec 8, 2005)

Huntingground said:


> This gimp was holding the girl's teddy bear in front of the cameras, demanding an apology from the Met, which he got, even though it looks as though the girl was radicalised at home and school (Bethnall Green).
> 
> Unreal.


Will we attempt to charge him, remove him or even expose him? Nope... Will the authorities (social services) step in and remove any other children from his care? Nope... Will he be sacked and ridiculed from his job (as what happened to many UKIP voters) nope. Infact will ANYTHING at all be done about this? Nope...

Because to do anything would mean we were racist and intolerant. I like many other UK citizens have had enough of this nonsense and false allegations. It is my FIRM belief the the citizens of the UK are the MOST tolerant people in the world. We don't force marriage, we don't force religious belief, we celebrate diversity, equality and individual freedoms that can be found no where else. We welcome people from all over the world here, but I really do think we should be showing people who do not tolerate us, our values and our way of life the exit.


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## Huntingground (Jan 10, 2010)

Delhi said:


> Will we attempt to charge him, remove him or even expose him? Nope... Will the authorities (social services) step in and remove any other children from his care? Nope... Will he be sacked and ridiculed from his job (as what happened to many UKIP voters) nope. Infact will ANYTHING at all be done about this? Nope...
> 
> Because to do anything would mean we were racist and intolerant. I like many other UK citizens have had enough of this nonsense and false allegations. It is my FIRM belief the the citizens of the UK are the MOST tolerant people in the world. We don't force marriage, we don't force religious belief, we celebrate diversity, equality and individual freedoms that can be found no where else. We welcome people from all over the world here, but I really do think we should be showing people who do not tolerate us, our values and our way of life the exit.


The backlash is coming, I can feel it. UKIP are meaning that more moderate parties have to be more "immigrant and exremism-sensitive".

Interesting times ahead imo.


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## PIJO (Jun 6, 2012)

Delhi said:


> Will we attempt to charge him, remove him or even expose him? Nope... Will the authorities (social services) step in and remove any other children from his care? Nope... Will he be sacked and ridiculed from his job (as what happened to many UKIP voters) nope. Infact will ANYTHING at all be done about this? Nope...
> 
> Because to do anything would mean we were racist and intolerant. I like many other UK citizens have had enough of this nonsense and false allegations. It is my FIRM belief the the citizens of the UK are the MOST tolerant people in the world. We don't force marriage, we don't force religious belief, we celebrate diversity, equality and individual freedoms that can be found no where else. We welcome people from all over the world here, but I really do think we should be showing people who do not tolerate us, our values and our way of life the exit.


Spot on mate


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## Acidreflux (Mar 3, 2015)

What happened to Pointer?


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